# [2/10/17 UPDATE] VSE charging for 3rd party reservation changes! [+Contact Info. for complaints]



## DavidnRobin

*2/10/17 Update:

Vistana revised the policy:

1)  The guest confirmation fee only applies to Staroption reservations.

2)  4 & 5 Star Elite owners get one free guest confirmation per ownership, per year.

DeniseM
*
-------------------------





Happy New Year! We look forward to serving your vacation ownership needs in 2017.

Please be advised that effective January 26, 2017, a $59 fee will be applied any time an Owner transfers their Vacation Ownership Interest reservation to a third-party guest. This is a result of the volume of requests we receive for these transactions and the resources required to provide this service.

A third-party guest is either someone not listed on the ownership contract or checking in prior to an Owner’s arrival.

As a valued Vistana Signature Network™ Elite Member, your fee is reduced from the standard $59:

  •    *5-Star Elite* *$39*
  •    *4-Star Elite* *$49*
  •    *3-Star Elite* *$49*

Arrangements for third-party guests must be made by calling Elite Special Services directly at 888-786-3548. Any of our Vacation Planning Counselors will be happy to assist you. We ask that you please refrain from calling the resort directly to add a guest name, as the front office staff will be unable to provide this service for you.

We are working to enhance vistana.com in 2017 to enable Owners to facilitate third-party guest transactions online.

We hope you get to enjoy great vacations this year. We look forward to assisting you.

Sincerely,




Suzanne Clark
Vice President, Owner Services
Vistana Signature Experiences
*Terms & Conditions*
Third-party guest is defined as any guest that is not an Owner of record on the Vacation Ownership Interest account attributed to the reservation, or any guest checking in prior to an Owner arrival. Arrangements for third-party guest arrivals must be made by calling Owner Services directly. No online, email, or resort requests will be accepted at this time. Owners and third-party guests are responsible for any personal expenses incurred while occupying a Unit, as well as for any damage, theft, or loss incurred. For security purposes, keys will only be given to the name on the reservation and a valid government or state-issued photo ID is required at check-in.

----------------------------

*ADDED by DeniseM -

If you would like to submit a complaint, here is the Contact info. for: 

Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences:

Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/

Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357

Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com*


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## DavidnRobin

Just another reason to get to 5*...
{Sarcasm Alert!}

"Happy New Year!"
LOL

How are they going to charge? Take CC info over phone?
[Added: CC over the phone]
I just called - took ~10 min to answer.

In the T&Cs - it does not state that a credit card is required at check-in, only that a government or state-issued ID is required


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## vacationhopeful

WAY, Way, way cheaper than Wyndham's call in fee of $129 or online (you do it) fee of $99.


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## DavidnRobin

vacationhopeful said:


> WAY, Way, way cheaper than Wyndham's call in fee of $129 or online (you do it) fee of $99.



Well... then that makes it okay.
{Sarcasm Alert!}

Why not make the fee $499, or raise VSN fee to $1000? VSE/VSN can pretty much control these fees without retribution or arbitration.
Where are the check and balances?


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## grgs

This is very annoying.  If they let us make the change online (like we used to be able to), that would help this issue:

_This is a result of the volume of requests we receive for these transactions and the resources required to provide this service._​


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## grgs

I missed this sentence:

_We are working to enhance vistana.com in 2017 to enable Owners to facilitate third-party guest transactions online.
_​Will they take back the fee at that point?


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## DavidnRobin

So... they will only take name change (w/o other info) and not send reservation confirmation?

$39-$59 for that?  Heck, takes more time to process CC charge... which I assume goes to justify the new fee.

Do I understand correctly?
1) Previously an Owner could call or request online to add 3rd party (with relevant information) and send confirmation to 3rd party w/o fee
2) Then, they change it to only calling in with a name change only (w/o relevant info) and will not send confirmation to 3rd party - w/o fee
3) Now, only by phone, and charging $39-$59 fee by CC

Yep... that makes total sense... {Sarcasm}

Does anyone have the new email extension for VSE employees since they switched from SVO?


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## DeniseM

My predication:  They will also charge $59 when you process the transaction online yourself.

It's ludicrous to suggest that a 5 minute phone transaction costs $59 - that's $708 an hour.

Remember - anything that suppresses owner rentals, benefits Vistana, because they have the right to Hoover up any unreserved inventory for FREE, and rent it, and put it in their pocket.

So we pay ridiculous maintenance fees, plus SVN members already pay an additional fee, and now this - what a bunch of crap!


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## Markus

DeniseM said:


> My predication:  They will also charge $59 when you process the transaction online yourself.
> 
> It's ludicrous to suggest that a 5 minute phone transaction costs $59 - that's $708 an hour.
> 
> Remember - anything that suppresses owner rentals, benefits Vistana, because they have the right to Hoover up any unreserved inventory for FREE, and rent it, and put it in their pocket.
> 
> So we pay ridiculous maintenance fees, plus SVN members already pay an additional fee, and now this - what a bunch of crap!


Agreed! This is riduculous and unfair. We paid for our ownership interest, our VSE network, and we pay handsomely for our MFs. Hopefully the fee will be eliminated when we are able to do this on line. The fact that there is no option to change the name when the reservation is made also makes this a cash grab. The default is the owners name.

Markus


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## letsgomets

What is outrageous is that their entire justification is the resources it takes for them to do this.  Well, until today, you could do it online so it took up no resources.  It is a transparent money grab and nothing more.

Vistana's recent change to refuse to let third parties receive direct confirmations also seems to have no purpose other than to promote fraud and uncertainty.  If you rented from an owner, you could always have the assurance of confirming directly with Vistana but with the recent change, now you have to rely only on the confirmation you get from the owner (and hope it doesn't later get changed).


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## DavidnRobin

I suggest to email Suzanne Clark and state your complaints (in a constructive manner...).
I have her old SVO email, but not new one.

What is current Vistana email extension?


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## DeniseM

Great idea:  @vistana.com

If you don't mind sharing, please post your letter (and the email address) for a sample.

*I just called and asked (and this may not be correct) but was told this only applies to reservations made 1/26 or later.  In other words, if you have a reservation made before 1/26, and change the name after 1/26, the fee won't apply.


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## pacman777

I have not received this notice for the fee yet and it's suppose to go into effect tomorrow? That's BS that they spring this on us with no notification.  $60 seems way too much for simply adding a guest for check in. 

What also bothers me and I have complained about this to the phone reps all the time is that when you call in to make updates or changes to your account and reservations, all you need to tell them is your phone number and address. There is not security code or password to verify it's actually the owner.  Anyone with easily attainable info can call and access your account. They could at least implement a security question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## baz48

pacman777 said:


> They could at least implement a security question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A few years ago I asked them to add a password to our account.  It was hit or miss as to whether the rep would ask for it.  They had no special place to put the  password in their data fields, so they added it to the address section.  Of course, we started getting mail  with the password as part of the street address!  Brilliant.


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## vacationhopeful

DavidnRobin said:


> Well... then that makes it okay.
> {Sarcasm Alert!}
> 
> Why not make the fee $499, or raise VSN fee to $1000? VSE/VSN can pretty much control these fees without retribution or arbitration.
> Where are the check and balances?



I have NO INTEREST in the your timeshare management company. I was trying to suggest this new fee for you ... with the 2 price point of fees ... looks a lot like Wyndham's. And via my Wyndham experience, your fees are cheap ... for now. 

I will forecast in the next 18 months, YOUR guest fees will increase. After all, I am sure when "relatively free" money can be collected for a computerize function .... industry PRICE POINTS will cling/migrate to a common level (ain't price fixing if they don't work together and agree to a set price level).

And I know of NO WYNDHAM OWNER who thought our Wyndham guest certificate fees are FAIR. ... entering all the info on the computer ourselves and the resort checking the online reservations system for the inbound guest ... a inbound guest who is or is not owner ... same work for the resort to checkin ether parties.


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## Helios

Love being 5* Elite.  Vistana just gave me another way to save some green.  I'll come up ahead after ~$x0,000 reservations...

But, I am sure this will help to prevent owners from renting SO resies.  {Sarcasm}


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## dioxide45

Odd how the base fee matches up exactly with what II charges to add a guest certificate to an exchange.


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## dioxide45

Not sure why they couldn't just give 5* elite the guest certificates for free.


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## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> Odd how the base fee matches up exactly with what II charges to add a guest certificate to an exchange.


Wonder why...


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## mariawolf

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure why they couldn't just give 5* elite the guest certificates for free.


Ridiculous==that means their phone people are making a ridiculous amount of money for a one to two minute typing of a name change


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## daviator

Just got the email from Vistana and I'm pissed.  My ownership interests were sold to me with explicit statements that they could be used by anyone I designate, without any additional cost.  I don't know what the contract says, but this certainly violates what was promised (verbal contract.)  And the fee is completely unjustifiable ($40-60 to type in a name?)

This seems like a class-action lawsuit in the making and I hope there's an attorney in the group who will think so too.

What's to stop them from raising that fee, or adding additional fees for "services" which we all thought were part of what we were already paying for?


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## rickandcindy23

This does apply to any Vistana resort reservations, including weeks not in Staroptions.  I just got my email for my SBP guest fee notification.  This sucks.  I cannot believe Vistana is going down the same road as Wyndham.  It's sleazy.


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## DeniseM

> What's to stop them from raising that fee, or adding additional fees for "services" which we all thought were part of what we were already paying for?



There is nothing to stop them - they could start charging for any services that they perform.  Makes you wonder why we pay SVN (VVN) fees?


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Odd how the base fee matches up exactly with what II charges to add a guest certificate to an exchange.





Helios said:


> Wonder why...



I'm probably missing the obvious sarcasm but, isn't VSE now owned by the same parent company (ILG) that owns II?


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I'm probably missing the obvious sarcasm but, isn't VSE now owned by the same parent company (ILG) that owns II?


Yes, you were missing the sarcasm.


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## PamMo

I was _*so*_ disappointed when I read this email today! _"Happy New Year, and let me tell you about an extra fee we are going to charge you!"_ This fee isn't just if you rent, but it applies to family and friends if they ARRIVE at the resort before you do! Are they serious? Are they really going to tell my family that they can't use the resort amenities if they get there before I do? If I rent my unit, there's NO WAY it costs them $59 to change the name (I do it online). If you lock off and rent both sides, it's another $59. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

MF's are ever increasing, SVN fees have gone up, and let's just add on some junk fees. Are they going to start charging an extra fee for splitting a lock off now, too?

I am getting sick of timeshare nickel-and-diming...

(Rant over.)


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## bizaro86

I for one am hoping there is something somewhere in the CC&Rs that would prohibit this. I'll have to find some time at some point and go through the one for SDO.


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## tammymacb

I didn't get this email (yet). I own WSJ VG. This summer, I'll be in Europe. My daughter is using my villa. I've already made the name change. From now on, if we don't go, we pay $59?


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## rickandcindy23

My letter:

Dear Suzanne,

I received your recent email about guest fees to my owned weeks. 

I don't understand why you have decided that owners need to pay to add guests to weeks we own.  We are not even a part of the Staroption system, we are simply owners of weeks.  We already pay a significant fee within our maintenance fees for your company to manage our resorts. 

These are weeks we own, which are deeded to us, not to Vistana.  We should be allowed to add guest names ourselves for no extra charge, but you feel we have to do it over the phone, and now for a fee.  Even in the future, when you put a system into place for us to add a guest name, you will charge for it.  I am certain of it because that is what an insincere timeshare management company does to its owners.  This will hurt me personally because our family owns a lot of weeks. 

There are long waits to talk to anyone at Vistana lately, and now you want to charge guest fees for our owned weeks.  It makes sense for one reason only, and that is for Vistana's monetary gratification.  Will this fee lessen our fees we pay to Vistana for managing our resorts?  Probably not in the slightest.  You just want more money for the company and don't care about the owners who have to pay these ridiculous fees.

Your decision to go to such lengths to make money from fee-paying owners is so very much like Wyndham, and I consider Wyndham to be the sleaziest of all timeshare management companies. 

Timeshare has a bad name as it is, and then Vistana tries to justify charging $59 for the simple addition of a guest name.  Please tell me this will save me money elsewhere, because I am only seeing money coming out of my pocket and directly into yours.  And what if my guest name changes on that reservation?  Will I have to pay again because it's a new name?

This is going to make people angrier about their timeshare obligations.  We already know of many companies who charge $3-5K to take timeshares off of owners' hands, because the owners think fees are already too high.

Please reconsider your decision to hurt owners in this way.  You are in the hospitality industry, and now I am going to have to tell my guests you charge $59 to add their names to my weeks.  That's not very hospitable. 

I hope Marriott and Disney, and all of the other hotel timeshare companies do not follow this lead.

Sincerely,


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## serendip7

vacationhopeful said:


> I have NO INTEREST in the your timeshare management company. I was trying to suggest this new fee for you ... with the 2 price point of fees ... looks a lot like Wyndham's. And via my Wyndham experience, your fees are cheap ... for now.



Suzanne Clark was VP of Owner Service Support for Wyndham for 18 years before coming to Vistana.  So that Wyndham b.s. creeping into Vistana isn't that big of a stretch.

Here's her page on LinkedIn.  Perhaps you can contact her to voice your displeasure through there..

https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/


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## serendip7

Here's her Facebook... https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357


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## cubigbird

I think that letter looks good, I think you should send it, and I will plan to do one too. Every owner reading this needs to also send an email.  I'd even go on TripAdvisor and other social media sites.  Activism does work.  Ultimately when negative news hits, the company will then want to do something about it.  My question though is, since we are deeded owners, and as long as our MFs are current, don't we OWN that right to make changes to add a guest?  Ultimately it is the OWNER who decides who can use the usage?  What does it say about this in our contracts??  The policy to extend down to a guest checking in what an owner comes later is also absurd.  Things happen, what happens if a flight gets delayed??


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## DeniseM

What is Suzanne's Vistana email address?


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## PamMo

SuzanneClark@vistana.com didn't work.


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## cubigbird

I'd like to know if they can do this per the ownership contract. What do the contracts say?  Maybe someone else more familiar with the ownership docs knows more about this??


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, you were missing the sarcasm.



DOH!


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## DeniseM

With Starwood it was:  suzanne.clark@starwoodvo.com

So I'm guessing that it is now:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com


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## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure why they couldn't just give 5* elite the guest certificates for free.


+1


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## Helios

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope Marriott and Disney, and all of the other hotel timeshare companies do not follow this lead.



While I am not happy about this, HGVC charges the fee as well...I guess this is where the industry is going.


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Great idea:  @vistana.com
> 
> If you don't mind sharing, please post your letter (and the email address) for a sample.
> 
> *I just called and asked (and this may not be correct) but was told this only applies to reservations made 1/26 or later.  In other words, if you have a reservation made before 1/26, and change the name after 1/26, the fee won't apply.



I could be mistaken, but I do not read it that way - and also not what I was told by OS.
It reads - any name change to a 3rd party after 1/26/17 will have fee.

_"Please be advised that effective January 26, 2017, a $59 fee will be applied any time an Owner transfers their Vacation Ownership Interest reservation to a third-party guest."_


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## rickandcindy23

I don't know if many of you know this, but Vistana (formerly Starwood) and Wyndham are literally in buildings facing one another, sharing the same parking lot, in Orlando off of Sand Lake Road and John Young Parkway.  Just an FYI.


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## DavidnRobin

serendip7 said:


> Suzanne Clark was VP of Owner Service Support for Wyndham for 18 years before coming to Vistana.  So that Wyndham b.s. creeping into Vistana isn't that big of a stretch.
> 
> Here's her page on LinkedIn.  Perhaps you can contact her to voice your displeasure through there..
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/



Not entirely correct - Suzanne Clark worked for SVO prior to Vistana - I have emails to her going back 5+ years. Her LinkedIn profile has her joining SVO in 2004.


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## YYJMSP

Helios said:


> While I am not happy about this, HGVC charges the fee as well...I guess this is where the industry is going.



Airlines are starting to introduce Basic Economy, where the only thing included in your fare is getting you to your destination, everything else is extra.

i suppose your deed to use your unit yourself is the equivalent.


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## YYJMSP

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure why they couldn't just give 5* elite the guest certificates for free.



'cause they're gonna introduce 5 double-star level, which includes your guest cert and extra luggage tags. The salesweasel said so, must be true! Buy now!!!


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## rickandcindy23

YYJMSP said:


> Airlines are starting to introduce Basic Economy, where the only thing included in your fare is getting you to your destination, everything else is extra.
> 
> i suppose your deed to use your unit yourself is the equivalent.



Meanwhile, Southwest is posting huge profits.  Even if SW decides to charge for the second bag, they are still the best game in town.  Denver has an entire concourse for Southwest exclusively.  We used to be big on United and Frontier, but SW changed everything.  

People, don't acquiesce.  That is exactly what they hope you will do.  Write a letter and be assertive, and make waves about this fee.


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## DeniseM

> I could be mistaken, but I do not read it that way - and also not what I was told by OS.
> It reads - any name change to a 3rd party after 1/26/17 will have fee.



I didn't read it that way either, but that is what I was told (as was another Tugger.)  However, with the phone Reps' reputation for giving incorrect info., I expect a lot of confusion about this to start with.  It should be interesting!


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## VacationForever

I actually think it has to do with Vistana being now under ILG. Let's see how to rake in more money....mmm...


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## Helios

YYJMSP said:


> Airlines are starting to introduce Basic Economy, where the only thing included in your fare is getting you to your destination, everything else is extra.
> 
> i suppose your deed to use your unit yourself is the equivalent.


You are right, pretty much all of them.


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## Helios

YYJMSP said:


> 'cause they're gonna introduce 5 double-star level, which includes your guest cert and extra luggage tags. The salesweasel said so, must be true! Buy now!!!


Nice, I will need to PM about your salesweasel.  I want in...


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## Helios

VacationForever said:


> I actually think it has to do with Vistana being now under ILG. Let's see how to rake in more money....mmm...


I also think it is the ILG relationship that is starting this.  They do it, why shouldn't VSE do it.  

Does anyone know if Hyatt charges as well?  If they do, did they charge before they were bought?


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## YYJMSP

VacationForever said:


> I actually think it has to do with Vistana being now under ILG. Let's see how to rake in more money....mmm...



In the spinoff/merger, didn't VSE end up with controlling interest in ILG?  not that it really matters, as the controllers would be corps/funds owning the shares, not necessarily the actual decision makers...


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## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> In the spinoff/merger, didn't VSE end up with controlling interest in ILG?  not that it really matters, as the controllers would be corps/funds owning the shares, not necessarily the actual decision makers...


In the spinoff and acquisition, Starwood shareholders owned about 60% of ILG where existing ILG shareholders owned 40%. As you say, that really all means nothing since those Starwood shareholders are mainly big institutional investors.

This is just a fee to increase the bottom line for those shareholders.


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## PamMo

Vistana wants to charge *Owners* $59 to use their own VOI. We bought deeded weeks, not membership or points in a vacation club. It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that SVN (now Vistana) is an overlay on our ownership. Who is occupying an Owner's VOI shouldn't matter to Vistana, nor should they be able to restrict/amend an Owner's usage to their deeded week.

It obviously never bothered them that people were renting out StarOption exchanges against the rules. Now they apparently want in on it, and see a profit in charging for name changes on reservations.


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## chemteach

Even diamond resorts (one of the worst companies out there) gives their version of elite owners 5 free guest reservations a year.  I guess Westin/Vistana now is going the way of the sleazier systems...


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## okwiater

Although annoying, I don't have a big problem with a fee to add a guest name to StarOption reservations. The VSN is a vacation exchange network, separate from the deeded ownership and usage rights of the underlying property.

However, I see a major problem with this fee when it comes to deeded weeks. Real estate that is personally owned should be able to be used by any guest the owner designates without any such ridiculous fee. The costs to process a name change should be borne by the homeowners association.

This time, I agree with DeniseM and everyone else. This is a blatant money grab and will certainly affect my decision to buy additional weeks in the future.


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## tschwa2

Helios said:


> While I am not happy about this, HGVC charges the fee as well...I guess this is where the industry is going.


I always thought that HGVC didn't charge a guest fee if you were sending a guest on a Home week reservation only a club reservation but I could be mistaken about that one.


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## VacationForever

YYJMSP said:


> In the spinoff/merger, didn't VSE end up with controlling interest in ILG?  not that it really matters, as the controllers would be corps/funds owning the shares, not necessarily the actual decision makers...



But this brings Vistana into the same family as Interval International and as such, they learn from each other how to charge more and higher fees....


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## SMHarman

okwiater said:


> Although annoying, I don't have a big problem with a fee to add a guest name to StarOption reservations. The VSN is a vacation exchange network, separate from the deeded ownership and usage rights of the underlying property.
> 
> However, I see a major problem with this fee when it comes to deeded weeks. Real estate that is personally owned should be able to be used by any guest the owner designates without any such ridiculous fee. The costs to process a name change should be borne by the homeowners association.
> 
> This time, I agree with DeniseM and everyone else. This is a blatant money grab and will certainly affect my decision to buy additional weeks in the future.


Except the SO ressie should only be for an owner 

So with your overlay to the twisted pretzel of logic there are none they can charge for 

I concur.


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## canesfan

This is ridiculous and unreasonable. If I'm traveling with guests or even my adult children and they arrive before me, why should I have to pay $ for them to check in before I arrive. This is a total money grab.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tschwa2

SMHarman said:


> Except the SO ressie should only be for an owner
> 
> So with your overlay to the twisted pretzel of logic there are none they can charge for
> 
> I concur.


No you can't rent out an SO reservation.  You can gift it to a friend or family and certainly let them check in if they arrive first and you authorize it.    Vistana would still have fees to collect even if they only do so for SO reservations.


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## okwiater

SMHarman said:


> Except the SO ressie should only be for an owner
> 
> So with your overlay to the twisted pretzel of logic there are none they can charge for
> 
> I concur.





tschwa2 said:


> No you can't rent out an SO reservation.  You can gift it to a friend or family and certainly let them check in if they arrive first and you authorize it.    Vistana would still have fees to collect even if they only do so for SO reservations.



tschwa2 is right. I often book reservations for friends and family to use my properties, and do not rent them. Although annoying, I understand a modest guest fee for StarOptions bookings like these.

Charging the fee for use of a deeded home resort week is unconscionable.


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## r1lee

canesfan said:


> This is ridiculous and unreasonable. If I'm traveling with guests or even my adult children and they arrive before me, why should I have to pay $ for them to check in before I arrive. This is a total money grab.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is happening to me right now. My inlaws and getting there a day before. I would have booked everything under my name.  My mother and father in law aren't going to mind, but My sister only needed 1 more day's worth of pts cause she didn't have enough to complete a week and is now going to have to pay $59.


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## SMHarman

okwiater said:


> tschwa2 is right. I often book reservations for friends and family to use my properties, and do not rent them. Although annoying, I understand a modest guest fee for StarOptions bookings like these.
> 
> Charging the fee for use of a deeded home resort week is unconscionable.


Charging to add $59 to add 20 characters of someone's name to a reservation that they (well actually you) could do for free when making a reservation. Last month. 

That's what you call a modest fee.


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## eClass

VacationForever said:


> I actually think it has to do with Vistana being now under ILG. Let's see how to rake in more money....mmm...



Of course it is, but when the tie up was announced the following was posted on the VSE website under News:

*How does this affect Owners?*

Vistana will continue to be the exclusive provider of vacation ownership for the renowned Westin® and Sheraton® brands, while providing all of the features and benefits of ownership Owners have come to expect. Owners will continue enjoying their timeshare resorts as they always have, as well as retaining continued access to the industry-leading SPG program. Current reservation guidelines and fees, exchange rules, reservation rights, and exchange privileges through Starwood Vacation NetworkSM, Interval International and other current exchange options will all remain the same.

(https://www.vistana.com/news/vistana-signature-experiences)

The parts I have underlined seem to contradict the current announcement about the third party reservation fee.


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## RLS50

Of course the justification for this $59 charge is bogus since the effort involved in making this change online would take seconds and does not impact the individual resorts in the least, as they don't care who the guest is as long as they know who it will be checking in.   There is no question this is to benefit corporate profits and shareholders, and has nothing to do with adding value for owners.  

It appears that this new strategy to generate additional profits is to go after any owners that might be renting, and making the new policy so rigid that there is no way some renter can falsely claim a guest is just "arriving early" or he is my "cousin" just using my week.  In the meantime, owners that allow legitimate family members to use their weeks get caught up in this and pay the price as well.


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## Helios

tschwa2 said:


> I always thought that HGVC didn't charge a guest fee if you were sending a guest on a Home week reservation only a club reservation but I could be mistaken about that one.


Clarification - You are correct.  I should have expanded...

HGVC charges $49 for Home Resort, By Hilton Priority, and Club Reservations (equivalent to SO reservation).  Home Week Guest Certs are complimentary.  I believe a Guest Cert at a Home Resort is complimentary if the owner is travelling as well.  I'll call to confirm.

I believe the fee started in 2011 and, as expected, HGVC owners were not happy...but the fee remained...That predates my HGVC days.


----------



## AnnMahon

So disappointing.  I am writing this email.  Than k for posting her email. 

Suzanne,


I am an owner at two Vistana properties, and cannot express my displeasure enough, or civilly, at the latest charges for timeshare owners.  To require a fee to book a third party use of the timeshare is contemptible.  We purchased our units on the basis that we could share the experiences with friends, and you are now making it even more expensive.  Your email was also incomplete, and did not fully describe the nature of said fees, so one is only left to assume that it applies to all name changes period.  I am able to change the name myself online, so why should I be charged???


Since you are the owner experiences VP, I will also take this time to say that I haven’t found the owner experiences and assistance team to be helpful at all.  I have called to understand how to book a different destination, and have not been able to do so.  I have called to better understand the Interval relationship, and received no help, yet this organization touted it’s benefits…. While all I see online are disgusting properties that I would never stay at. 


Having read blogs online, I can only see that your experiences at subpar timeshare companies like Wyndham are the “knowledge” you brought with you, and I would like to tell you that is unwelcome.  Owner Services under your guidance is subpar, and evidently not promising to get any better.


----------



## SMHarman

AnnMahon said:


> So disappointing.  I am writing this email.  Than k for posting her email.
> 
> Suzanne,
> 
> 
> I am an owner at two Vistana properties, and cannot express my displeasure enough, or civilly, at the latest charges for timeshare owners.  To require a fee to book a third party use of the timeshare is contemptible.  We purchased our units on the basis that we could share the experiences with friends, and you are now making it even more expensive.  Your email was also incomplete, and did not fully describe the nature of said fees, so one is only left to assume that it applies to all name changes period.  I am able to change the name myself online, so why should I be charged???
> 
> 
> Since you are the owner experiences VP, I will also take this time to say that I haven’t found the owner experiences and assistance team to be helpful at all.  I have called to understand how to book a different destination, and have not been able to do so.  I have called to better understand the Interval relationship, and received no help, yet this organization touted it’s benefits…. While all I see online are disgusting properties that I would never stay at.
> 
> 
> Having read blogs online, I can only see that your experiences at subpar timeshare companies like Wyndham are the “knowledge” you brought with you, and I would like to tell you that is unwelcome.  Owner Services under your guidance is subpar, and evidently not promising to get any better.


It gets a little ad hominem.

My problem with the usury nature of these fees is that there is no opportunity cost lost to anyone.

The owner pool is not the hotel room pool so Stanwood can't rent the room you are renting.  

The owner cost and benefit of renting actually diminishes closer to arrival. While airline name change fees are / were partly to offset a early cheap booking being name changed not cancelled and replaced with a high cost last minute. This is not the same impact. 

So what could be done for free now costs $59 just because.


----------



## bizaro86

I think less attacks on Ms Clarks past and more how this will negatively affect starwood would be better.

I think something like. 

"I feel this is a breech of trust as I was told my deeded week was owned real estate. I will therefore never be able to purchase a VOI from Vistana again, as I can't rely on your promises"

That one would be for folks who have previously purchased a developer week. Since I only have resale SDO, that would be an obviously empty threat for me. I'm planning to go with something like.

"I use my VOI both personally and via guest, and feel this new fee is a breach of trust between the deeded owners and the management. I will therefore make it my personal mission every time I am at one of your resort's to convince one person to rescind a contract for every guest fee I pay."


----------



## dsmrp

RLS50 said:


> Of course the justification for this $59 charge is bogus since the effort involved in making this change online would take seconds and does not impact the individual resorts in the least, as they don't care who the guest is as long as they know who it will be checking in.   There is no question this is to benefit corporate profits and shareholders, and has nothing to do with adding value for owners.
> 
> It appears that this new strategy to generate additional profits is to go after any owners that might be renting, and making the new policy so rigid that there is no way some renter can falsely claim a guest is just "arriving early" or he is my "cousin" just using my week.  In the meantime, owners that allow legitimate family members to use their weeks get caught up in this and pay the price as well.



This^^^
I don't rent my units, but owners renting their home resort weeks usually undercut what Vistana would charge renters. So this is another way to discourage owners from renting out.

I think the point to fight this is on the infringement of owners' rights to use their home resort units as they wish. Vistana should have a way to let owners specify their family members able to check in early or use the week.


----------



## rickandcindy23

We have guests who stay in our SBP weeks, and we don't really urge people to avoid sales presentations; however, this could be good reason to add into my signature something like, "If you choose to go on a tour of the property with a salesperson, keep in mind that our fees have gone up substantially, and there is nothing to stop management from charging additional fees for services.  For example, Vistana added a fee this year of $59 to add your name to our owned week for this year."


----------



## DeniseM

> I am able to *change the name myself online*, so why should I be charged???


 - they eliminated this a few weeks ago.

I have been told that this function will come back, but I suspect it won't be free.


----------



## r1lee

so will the $59 be paid during the name change? or when we get to the resort?
my reservations already have the name changed done a while back.


----------



## DeniseM

> so will the $59 be paid during the name change? or when we get to the resort?
> my reservations already have the name changed done a while back.



The fee is paid at the time of the name change - it is not retroactive.


----------



## Markus

Has anyone been able to confirm Suzanne Clark's email address?
Thanks,

Markus


----------



## rickandcindy23

The email I used was suzanne.clark@vistana.com  It didn't come back as undeliverable.


----------



## DeniseM

Yes - some people have already emailed her.


----------



## Denise L

Helios said:


> I also think it is the ILG relationship that is starting this.  They do it, why shouldn't VSE do it.
> 
> Does anyone know if Hyatt charges as well?  If they do, did they charge before they were bought?



Hyatt charges for a guest certificate, yes.  It can be done online, and costs slightly more if you call and use an agent.  It's $39 or $41 or something like that.  Used to be $29 maybe?  My sister uses my nights in Carmel often and it is unfortunate that we have to pay the fee for the computer to type in her name.  My MIL will join us at Hyatt Incline Village, and if they get there before us (they live two hours away and we live four hours away), I would have to pay the fee.  Hyatt also charges to reserve and to cancel and to reserve again.  For this year, I had a conflict with two nights in Carmel, so I had to pay 3 fees.  My sister will probably use it again, so that will be 4 fees.  Not to mention my crazy MFs that used to be $800 and are now about $1600.

We love our DVC.  No reservation fees, no cancellation fees, no guest name fees, no split week housekeeping fees, etc. I hope they never start charging them.


----------



## PamMo

Yes, the suzanne.clark@vistana.com is correct. Here is her response to my email:

_Dear Mr and Mrs.....

Thank you for your feedback. I’m sorry to hear of your dissatisfaction with our company’s decision to implement a guest fee.

The decision to begin charging this type of fee is a result of the high demand we receive for third party reservation changes. While we work to develop the online capabilities for owners electing the online self-service channel, our intention will be to potentially offer a discount for transacting online. Regardless of the use of the online tool there are still costs to service and support all transactions. The development of servicing systems, the reservation confirmations, changes to guest names, cancellations all require funding and overhead to support.


Please know, that a guest fee is quite common within the vacation ownership industry.  This fee only applies to an individual reservation for those owners who have a third party guest checking in. In addition it is critical the resort front desks know who is occupying the villa in the event of an emergency.


Thank you again for reaching out to me. I appreciate you as a valued owner and welcome all owner feedback.


Sincerely Suzanne Clark_​


----------



## PamMo

PamMo said:


> ._..our intention will be to potentially offer a discount for transacting online. Regardless of the use of the online tool there are still costs to service and support all transactions. The development of servicing systems, the reservation confirmations, changes to guest names, cancellations all require funding and overhead to support._



This is disingenuous. I used to be able to easily change the guest names online, and email my guest a copy of the reservation - without ever bothering a human at VSE. What about all the VSE fees I pay now (on multiple weeks), in addition to management fees included in my annual MF's?



PamMo said:


> ..._Please know, that a guest fee is quite common within the vacation ownership industry._



So, I guess you're saying, if someone else charges junk fees, we are going to add them, too. We don't care how owners feel about it. We can, and just did, do it.



PamMo said:


> ..._Thank you again for reaching out to me. I appreciate you as a valued owner and welcome all owner feedback._



I hope her email box is FLOODED with owner feedback on this!


----------



## SMHarman

PamMo said:


> Yes, the suzanne.clark@vistana.com is correct. Here is her response to my email:
> 
> _Dear Mr and Mrs.....
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. I’m sorry to hear of your dissatisfaction with our company’s decision to implement a guest fee.
> 
> The decision to begin charging this type of fee is a result of the high demand we receive for third party reservation changes. While we work to develop the online capabilities for owners electing the online self-service channel, our intention will be to potentially offer a discount for transacting online. Regardless of the use of the online tool there are still costs to service and support all transactions. The development of servicing systems, the reservation confirmations, changes to guest names, cancellations all require funding and overhead to support.
> 
> 
> Please know, that a guest fee is quite common within the vacation ownership industry.  This fee only applies to an individual reservation for those owners who have a third party guest checking in. In addition it is critical the resort front desks know who is occupying the villa in the event of an emergency.
> 
> 
> Thank you again for reaching out to me. I appreciate you as a valued owner and welcome all owner feedback.
> 
> 
> Sincerely Suzanne Clark_​


Disingenuous. Making a reservation and adding a name at that time has a marginal cost of near zero. Another 30 seconds of time on the phone or another field to populate in a form. 

Changes further on in the process have an additional few cents of electricity and  engineering salary for the code, or a call center call.


----------



## ragdoll

I'm a little confused about this issue. Does it apply to people we are traveling with to our HOME resort? We never have others use our weeks unless we are going with them. This year we have reserved two 2-bedroom units for 6 adults. Both of these are our home resort reservations. Will we have to pay the fee for the second unit where our friends are staying?


----------



## DeniseM

It only applies if you are going to put the confirmation in *someone else's name.
*
If you have two units in your name, and you can check your guests in at the front desk, you don't need a confirmation in their name - you can simply add their names at the front desk.

However, if they are going to check in before you, you will need a Guest Confirmation.


----------



## ragdoll

DeniseM said:


> It only applies if you are going to put the confirmation in *someone else's name.* [/QUOTE
> 
> Both reservations are in my name and I was planning to leave it that way until we all check in together. At that time I would add their name to their unit. So, it seems like, if I don't require a confirmation in their name, I won't be charged the fee. Is this correct?


----------



## DeniseM

Yes - it only applies if you are going to put the actual confirmation in someone else's name.


----------



## ragdoll

DeniseM said:


> Yes - it only applies if you are going to put the actual confirmation in someone else's name.



Thank you, Denise.


----------



## r1lee

DeniseM said:


> The fee is paid at the time of the name change - it is not retroactive.



Awesome but not really. I still think it's BS.


----------



## chemteach

Did anyone get the "Reminder: Don't Delay, Share the Fun Today" email today?  (The day following the email about charging for guest names to be added to a reservation...). I just sent the following to Suzanne.

"I find it counter-intuitive that Vistana would send an email saying they are charging for guest names to be put on reservations (in other words, charging Vistana owners to allow our friends/family to use one of our weeks) and then the very next day send this email about referring friends and family to the Vistana Signature Experience.  Members are "referring" their friends and family to Vistana by letting them stay in their units.  Perhaps Vistana should consider paying members to have guests stay in their units as a referral bonus rather than charging members for adding a name to an owner's reservation.


I understand that if some members are creating a very large number of guest reservations, that Vistana might have a reason to charge for that (although even then - Vistana is getting a larger number of people exposed to the Vistana Signature Experience product).  However, if a member has one or two guest reservations a year, I find it member-unfriendly for Vistana to charge for these, particularly to charge elite members who own several units with Vistana and are more likely to let friends and family use their weeks.  Diamond Resorts gives all their members between 1 and 5 complementary guest reservations, depending on the level of ownership.  I am dismayed at Vistana's treatment of their members with this new policy."


----------



## kcole5

Given that most people probably bought timeshares with the expectation that they could share the use with their families, this is particularly egregious. We bought ours with the expectation that our parents would use them without us being there and have been for several years. Also when you buy any form of real estate it is highly unusual to put multiple people on titles. Generally you keep them simple, such as a married couple. Perhaps the answer is we go to Vistana and have them retitle our timeshares with our extended families. That seems like it would be cost effective for Vistana... (Sarcasm intended).


----------



## VacationForever

What about multiple changes in names, is the charge each time it is changed or just charged once?


----------



## DeniseM

> Perhaps the answer is we go to Vistana and have them retitle our timeshares with our extended families.



Vistana doesn't do title work - you would have to use an outside title company and it would cost you in the range of $150-$200 per deed.  Also - anyone you put on the deed assumes full financial responsibility.


----------



## AlanYS

I wrote the following to Vistana (both via the online Vistana "Contact Us" page as was as direct email to Susanne Clark:

I am extremely angry regarding your recent policy change regarding charges for reservations made in the name of a guest of the owner. This is not, nor ever has been, the policy regarding reservations. We bought our 5 weeks of ownership with the intent of sharing their use with our children and their family and have done so over the course of several years. To be told that to provide a week of use for one of our children would now cost me $40 is absurd and a violation of our original contract. I demand that you reconsider this policy and, at the very least, allow for reservations made to family members be excluded from this policy. We own those weeks and should be able to use them in any manner we see fit that does not otherwise violate usage policy. Certainly this should be true within my immediate family regardless of what names are on the contracts.


----------



## AlanYS

I suspect that this is in response to people using their ownership as a profit-making rental (ala AirB&B). The simple solution is to allow owners to input a list of names that are their children, relatives, etc. that they intend to share usage with in the future. Then, if the name is on that list, there should be no additional fee.


----------



## bankr63

I'm interested in seeing if we eventually get this message from Vistana as well, considering today is the effective date. Nothing has been relayed to us yet, perhaps because we own a straight deeded week at SVR (not actually in the VSE system).  Perhaps this fee doesn't apply to straight ownerships as we do most of our transacting directly with the resort (we have never called Vistana's call centre).  Then again, they can't rent out my unit if I don't use it, so I guess I'm not in competition with them?


----------



## frandmg

rickandcindy23 said:


> The email I used was suzanne.clark@vistana.com  It didn't come back as undeliverable.


----------



## frandmg

I called and emailed thru the owners web site today letting Vistana know I wasn't happy about this new 3rd party booking fee. We bought with the idea anyone in our family or friends could use our time share, this fee is a penalty. I hope that more owners complain and Vistana changes the policy.


----------



## beachlynn

I am outraged. As someone said, the cost to make a name change is outrageous in terms of cost per hour. When we bought our 2 units  we were told that renting out one of them if we couldn't use our villas was a great option. If only I could go back to 2006 and undo this nightmare we find ourselves in. At least in Maui, it has been the epitome of the nightmare of ever-increasing MFs. Also, the sales wizards in Princeville didn't elaborate on the fact that a resale in the future would be a bust because the benefits won't transfer to new owners.
How would they feel if owners spent a little time outside of the sales offices discouraging people from buying new units? Vistana sees us as cash cows.


----------



## tammymacb

I still haven't gotten the email. 
I find this change ridiculous too. I'm going to be in Europe next summer, so my oldest DD and her husband and kids are using our WSJ VG 2 bedroom unit. I'm glad I'd already changed the reservation to her name. When I bought, I considered that I probably wouldn't use it every year, but I have kids that would. Now they're going to charge me to let my kids use my unit. 
Money grab.


----------



## DeniseM

Update:  Someone contacted me privately, and when the got a Guest Confirmation today for a reservation that they made in the past, they were charged the GC fee, so apparently the phone Rep. gave me the wrong info.


----------



## tammymacb

DeniseM said:


> Update:  Someone contacted me privately, and when the got a Guest Confirmation today for a reservation that they made in the past, they were charged the GC fee, so apparently the phone Rep. gave me the wrong info.



So should I expect a bill for putting our villa in my daughter's name? I changed the name a couple weeks ago. As far as I know, they don't have a CC# to charge me.


----------



## DeniseM

> So should I expect a bill for putting our villa in my daughter's name?



No - The new rule starts today.

Previously, I (and another Tugger) were told if we made a reservation IN THE PAST, and changed the name on the confirmation 1/26 or later, there would be no fee, but that was not correct.

Examples:

If you made a reservation in the past, and got a guest confirmation before Jan. 26 - *NO FEE.*

If you made a reservation in the past, and called to get a guest confirmation on 1/26, or in the future - *FEE.*

If you make a reservation  1/26 or later, and called the same day, or in the future to get a guest confirmation - *FEE.*


----------



## okwiater

My e-mail is timestamped 11:00pm. Making a major policy change which affects usage costs 1 hour before it takes effect is unconscionable.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I received the same response to my email:

Dear Mr. and Mrs. M-----,  

Thank you for your feedback. I’m sorry to hear of your dissatisfaction with our company’s decision to implement a guest fee.

The decision to begin charging this type of fee is a result of the high demand we receive for third party reservation changes. While we work to develop the online capabilities for owners electing the online self-service channel, our intention will be to potentially offer a discount for transacting online. Regardless of the use of the online tool there are still costs to service and support all transactions. The development of our servicing systems, the development of the online capabilities, the reservation confirmation, changes to guest names, cancellations all require funding to support. In addition, our ability to support owners with rental programs is not included in your annual maintenance fees.


Please know, that a guest fee is quite common within the vacation ownership industry.  This fee only applies to an individual reservation for those owners who have a third party guest checking in. In addition it is critical the resort front desks know who is occupying the villa in the event of an emergency.


Thank you again for reaching out to me. I appreciate you as a valued owner and welcomed your feedback.


Sincerely Suzanne Clark


----------



## JudyS

Are we certain yet that this $59 Guest Certificate fee is for both StarOptions reservations and deeded weeks? Some Tuggers say they have not yet gotten this email. If you have not gotten this email -- do you own StarOptions, or just deeded weeks? And for those here who own deeded weeks only -- have you gotten this email?


----------



## MOXJO7282

This looks like a complete money grab as they could never justify the costs they're charging.


----------



## eClass

JudyS said:


> Are we certain yet that this $59 Guest Certificate fee is for both StarOptions reservations and deeded weeks? Some Tuggers say they have not yet gotten this email. If you have not gotten this email -- do you own StarOptions, or just deeded weeks? And for those here who own deeded weeks only -- have you gotten this email?



I have deeded weeks only and have received the email.


----------



## okwiater

Maybe paying a fee to let your friends and family use your deeded real estate is one of the "Signature Experiences" Vistana had in mind when they chose the name?


----------



## dss

I sent in a letter as well. I am concerned this may be an alarming signal of how Vistana plans to nickel and dime owners. I urged Ms. Clark to not just "follow other timeshare orgs" by matching their junk fees. Given we are the owners, I also asked for transparent documentation demonstrating the compelling need for this fee to offset the hard cost to provide it. If it *really* costs in the neighborhood of $60 to add someone's name to a reservation (especially if the functionality is coming online shortly and still retains some form of a fee), there should be ample documentation that they should be sharing with their ownership community.

This is a bald cash grab on the backs of their owners and we should respectfully resist.


----------



## chemteach

I received the reply from Ms. Clark.  But it was sent to "Mr." (I am female) and they somehow they had my first name incorrect even though my name was clearly listed at the bottom of my email.  Great "Vistana Signature Experience"...  I can't figure out how they thought my name was "Mark."  Seems they have someone not paying attention when replying to the complaints.  Hoping this is a sign that they are needing to reply to a large number of owners upset about this issue.


----------



## PamMo

okwiater said:


> Maybe paying a fee to let your friends and family use your deeded real estate is one of the "Signature Experiences" Vistana had in mind when they chose the name?



^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I guess they mean more "Signature Experiences" on our checks to Vistana!


----------



## Xanadu

I own 3 deeded weeks  - 2 at WKORV and 1 at WPORV, and I have not yet gotten this email. I just logged into vistana.com and I don't see any obvious announcement about it yet. It sounds like they are a bit disorganized.


----------



## chemteach

PamMo said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> I guess they mean more "Signature Experiences" on our checks to Vistana!


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tha

I copied and sent the email above - and let them know I saw it on TUG - and added, "
. ..BTW there was an on-line capability until this year. Why is Vistana wasting owners resources reinventing the wheel? Looks incompetent and corrupt."


----------



## VacationForever

chemteach said:


> I received the reply from Ms. Clark.  But it was sent to "Mr." (I am female) and they somehow they had my first name incorrect even though my name was clearly listed at the bottom of my email.  Great "Vistana Signature Experience"...  I can't figure out how they thought my name was "Mark."  Seems they have someone not paying attention when replying to the complaints.  Hoping this is a sign that they are needing to reply to a large number of owners upset about this issue.


They (Ms. Clark/VSE) have an assistant send out boiler plate response and the previous reply was to a Mark, copy and paste.


----------



## VacationForever

tha said:


> I copied and sent the email above - and let them know I saw it on TUG - and added, "
> . ..BTW there was an on-line capability until this year. Why is Vistana wasting owners resources reinventing the wheel? Looks incompetent and corrupt."


They have to redo it to incorporate charging a fee.


----------



## kcole5

DeniseM said:


> Vistana doesn't do title work - you would have to use an outside title company and it would cost you in the range of $150-$200 per deed.  Also - anyone you put on the deed assumes full financial responsibility.


Fair enough. My point was that their criteria that someone must be on the title does not really recognize how families plan to use their timeshares nor how buyers normally title "real estate", in part for the reasons you state. There should be a way that we can designate certain family members to use them in future, without having to be present or pay a fee for the privilege of allowing family members to use it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Does Vistana take weeks back?  Just wondering.  I don't see a lot of weeks for sale on eBay anymore, so it crossed my mind that perhaps Vistana is allowing deedbacks.  Seems like they will get more angry people.  We are a tiny portion of the ownership.


----------



## Westin5Star

I don't own any of my timeshares; they are owned by one of three trusts that we have.  My trusts will not be using the TS and I have independent trustees that manage the trusts (for asset protection purposes).  Will I have to pay the $39 every time I use my timeshares?

***I haven't posted in a long long time.  I hope that you are all doing well.


----------



## YYJMSP

Westin5Star said:


> I don't own any of my timeshares; they are owned by one of three trusts that we have.  My trusts will not be using the TS and I have independent trustees that manage the trusts (for asset protection purposes).  Will I have to pay the $39 every time I use my timeshares?
> 
> ***I haven't posted in a long long time.  I hope that you are all doing well.



I'm going to bet you will have to pay, as your name is not on the deed.


----------



## Helios

YYJMSP said:


> I'm going to bet you will have to pay, as your name is not on the deed.


That would be my guess too.


----------



## Helios

What are we going to do if they start charging a fee to reply to emails...


----------



## DavidnRobin

Westin5Star said:


> I don't own any of my timeshares; they are owned by one of three trusts that we have.  My trusts will not be using the TS and I have independent trustees that manage the trusts (for asset protection purposes).  Will I have to pay the $39 every time I use my timeshares?
> 
> ***I haven't posted in a long long time.  I hope that you are all doing well.



Hey Jody - welcome back - long time...
Good question. I am in process of putting ours in a trust as well.
While in a trust - I suspect that it goes to Owner on record at VSN (formerly SVN) and not the trust. It is not like one checks in under the Trust's name as it does not have an Gov't or state issued ID.
Probably best to contact VSE/VSN on this question. Let us know if you receive a response that is reliable.


----------



## vacatiionking

As much as I don't like paying ever increasing maintenance fees, the level of outrage in this thread vs. the cost of a fee that you have never incurred and may never incur, seems out of proportion.  I would expect this level of angst for people who own in Maui paying over $2000 a year in MFs and then the city imposes an after the fact tax increase.  

I have never had a family member check in 2 hours before me.  If I ever do, they will just have to cool their heels until I get there.  If my kids want to use one of my weeks without me, if I didn't mind paying the exorbitant MF then giving it to my kids, what's another $60?  You could always ask them to reimburse you for the guest fee.  Not a bad deal to pay $60 for a $1000-$2000 week.  I suspect owners who rent will pay a majority of this new fee.  If you do, you can always add $60 to the fee.

On the other hand, it is pretty duplicitous of Vistana to take down their web portal to add a guest name, and then say they have to charge a fee due to the LARGE volume of calls.  Perhaps they will reconsider like Wyndham did by giving us a proportionate amount of free guest name changes.  Trust me, I don't like the fee either, but much of what I read here is disproportionate outrage for something that can be avoided.


----------



## JudyS

eClass said:


> I have deeded weeks only and have received the email.


Thanks for the information. It really seems egregious to charge this to deeded week owners. (BTW, I "liked" your reply, meaning I liked that you took the time to reply to my question. I DON'T like the new policy!)


----------



## DeniseM

> I don't like the fee either, but much of what I read here is disproportionate outrage for something that can be avoided.



I think you missed the point - this is simply a money grab by Vistana - there is no justification for adding a $59 fee.

If owners take this kind of larceny lying down, it just encourages Vistana to exploit owners even more.

Even if it doesn't impact you personally, what about the principle?


----------



## SMHarman

Need to figure out the real life for us. 

The deed is in Mrs SMH maiden name. Her passport is now changed 

So do we need to retitle to avoid this fee for own use?


----------



## DeniseM

My driver's license said Denise (maiden name) (married name)  - that might be an easy fix, and it's helpful in many situations where a woman may have accounts in her maiden name.


----------



## mig1

I wanted to add my rambling thoughts to this thread as I'm an owner at WKORV.  I got the email a couple of days ago and even though I have never done a 3rd party booking and don't expect to, I immediately was outraged.

I picked up the phone and called OS to voice my displeasure.  I asked the rep if she could explain what the "resources" were required to simply input a name other than the name of the owner on the deed?  She couldn't answer the question as she explained those on the front lines (who have to deal with irate owners like us) had not been told what those resources were.  Most likely because there aren't any---it's exactly what we all suspect.  It's a money grab plain and simple.

She said that 3rd Party Bookings tend to take units out of the system that owners want to rent, and this was one way Vistana was attempting to control that.  When I called BS on that because an occupant is an occupant whether renting or vacationing as an owner, she really didn't have a comeback.  

After watching them tack on a $99 fee to bank, and a $129 fee (maybe it's $149) to convert options to star points this new fee just makes me sick.  As I said to the rep on the phone.....these are all "clerical" functions.   They cost ZERO to implement.  

And....as I told her, when you go into the sales pitch, the staff sells you on how versatile the program is---how you can RENT, or BANK or CONVERT....so I asked, how does it BENEFIT me when I have to pay for all of these so called benefits?  When you charge me, it ceases to be a benefit.   Perhaps these resources are them asking me for my NAME, ADDRESS, ZIP CODE and EMAIL every single time I call.  If you've ever had to call more than once in a day you know what a supreme hassle this is.  Maybe those are the resources they are speaking of....because for the life of me I can't fathom what else they would be.

Then i asked if on the next email I get describing their contest where I can win resort credits or star points by simply giving them email addresses of the people I know who might be "interested" in their fabulous program.......how about if I charge them $100 for each potential lead?   She got quiet in a big hurry.

I can tell you this......I don't typically go to the owner updates because I don't want to waste my time for a few thousand star points...I get enough traveling and converting over the course of a year anyway.  But I'm going to start going....and I'm going to take their points, and when they are done with their presentation I'm going to tell them that until they decide to eliminate all of these worthless fees that are just there to drive revenue I wouldn't consider buying anything from the developer.  

As I suggested to the OS Rep, why not take the 99, 59 and 129 fees and give owners the option to buy all 3 of them at a dramatically reduced price.  Or...how about allowing immediate family members with the same last name to be on the reservation without cost?   There are so many better solutions to this situation than simply sticking it to the owners again.   

Escalating MF's, unnecessary charges for things that should be included etc.....for the first time in the 10 years I've owned....it makes me consider getting rid of this noose around my neck.  

The rep also told me that there is a cost to banking and converting because banking ties up future inventory.  But when I suggested that banking does not tie up actual inventory....it ties up theoretical inventory because nothing is truly tied up until a reservation is made.  Moreover, there's probably a good percentage of owners who forget to even use their options before they expire.  She had no comeback to that.....its almost as if the people manning the phones don't even believe in the product they have to support.  

In so far as these being costs being standard in the industry, I have to call B*#!S?@t....I also own a Disney timeshare and it has NO cost for banking or borrowing or for 3rd party reservations.  

If Vistana truly wants to get in on some of the money they claim is lost by 3rd party booking....then why not create a rental division and take a cut of the proceeds from the rental.  If you want my money....then EARN it.  This is simply flat out robbery.

I'm going to calm down and send Suzanne Clark an email......but if all i'm going to get in return is the same form letter that everyone else is getting I think I'll just engage with the general managers at the properties themselves and let them carry the message up the food chain.  

As I said at the beginning, I don't believe I'd do a 3rd party booking; nonetheless, I find this whole situation reprehensible.  I hope we can do something to reverse it!!


----------



## JudyS

DeniseM said:


> I think you missed the point - this is simply a money grab by Vistana - there is no justification for adding a $59 fee.
> 
> If owners take this kind of larceny lying down, it just encourages Vistana to exploit owners even more.
> 
> Even if it doesn't impact you personally, what about the principle?


I agree with Denise. OK, maybe this $59 fee doesn't impact you. But what fee will VSE come up with next? A few for calling the reservations department? A fee for changing reservations (in addition to the fees already charged for last-minute changes to StarOptions reservations)? Housekeeping fees for stays of less than seven nights? It's great to be able to bank StarOptions, but the fees for that are really high. And, now this. Think about the huge number of fees Wyndham charges. VSE seems to be going down that route.

If the money went to the HOAs, that wouldn't be so bad. But, it's looks like this is just more money in VSE's pocket. 

What are options other than writing emails? Maybe we can all buy a little stock in ILG and go to the shareholder's meetings and complain. Maybe owners can collectively buy a substantial amount of stock in ILG and get a real say. I know that a lot of people here spent big bucks on their VSE properties. Think about this as a way to protect your "investment." 

Note: ILG has a market capitalization of $2.5 billion. There are close to 2 million members in II. I don't know how many VSE owners there are, but the original Sheraton Vistana Resort alone has about 100,000 weekly intervals. The big problem in buying any substantial part of ILG would be communicating with other VSE (and Hyatt) owners and II (and TPI and VRI) members.


----------



## dioxide45

As a 2BR unit owner at SVV, we pay a $43 Owner Services fee in our MF payment. Isn't that fee supposed to cover actually contacting Owner Services for things like this?


----------



## sail27bill

I paid the fee 2 days ago as I had a renter for my Harborside week this year.  I was very upset since this is at best 60 seconds of their time.  Which leads me to believe what exactly do our management fees and owner services fees pay for?  Is this money being used to OFFSET the fees we pay, or is this now going to Vistana directly?  And if my children want to come early, why should I have to pay the fee so they can be let in? This is absolutely ridiculous. I asked for a manager to call me back, as I was pretty irate, and they said it will take up to 2 business days. I can write, but now a 60 second call is going to result in a lot more time which could be spent elsewhere.  I have owned for over 10 years multiple units, and am now questioning our decision.  There is a point when enough is enough.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Should you ever deposit your week with an exchange company other than II or RCI, you will have to pay the fee for the exchanger.  That is how it's done with Wyndham.  So this will affect more of you than y'all might think right now.  With Wyndham reservations I have deposited into SFX, I have had to pay the guest fee. 

The impact is huge for us.  I already own Shell, Wyndham and Worldmark, all of which fee us to death with HK and transaction fees. 

Think of the people who don't really do anything but pay fees for their weeks.  They don't use them, they leave them sit, and now to have a friend or family member use the week, they will pay. 

This doesn't happen at independent resorts.  I have a guest currently staying at Val Chatelle, and the management company was over-the-top nice about it, of course, because I own and pay their salaries with the five weeks we have there (plus I am on the board).  There is no way they would charge us for a guest name.  Vistana (terrible name, by the way) does this because they absolutely can.  They have the power, owners do not. 

Sadly, all of those who absolutely despise the salespeople the purchases they made will hate the company even more.

And honestly, this could be the beginning of additional charges that will affect everyone.  Who can stop them. 

I hope changing a name to a different name doesn't cost another fee.  That is my concern right now.  People do change their minds, and we give their money back, 100%, up to a certain date.


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## undrpar64

rickandcindy23 said:


> Should you ever deposit your week with an exchange company other than II or RCI, you will have to pay the fee for the exchanger.  That is how it's done with Wyndham.  So this will affect more of you than y'all might think right now.  With Wyndham reservations I have deposited into SFX, I have had to pay the guest fee.
> 
> The impact is huge for us.  I already Shell, Wyndham and Worldmark, all of which fee us to death with HK and transaction fees.
> 
> Think of the people who don't really do anything but pay fees for their weeks.  They don't use them, they leave them sit, and now to have a friend or family member use the week, they will pay.
> 
> This doesn't happen at independent resorts.  I have a guest currently staying at Val Chatelle, and the management company was over-the-top nice about it, of course, because I own and pay their salaries with the five weeks we have there (plus I am on the board).  There is no way they would charge us for a guest name.  Vistana (terrible name, by the way) does this because they absolutely can.  They have the power, owners do not.
> 
> Sadly, all of those who absolutely despise the salespeople the purchases they made will hate the company even more.
> 
> And honestly, this could be the beginning of additional charges that will affect everyone.  Who can stop them.
> 
> I hope changing a name to a different name doesn't cost another fee.  That is my concern right now.  People do change their minds, and we give their money back, 100%, up to a certain date.


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## undrpar64

For WKORV under Vacation Ownership Rules and Regulations

Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by


the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be

exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than

yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the

Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to

commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the

Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be

accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing

the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing

Agent, and may be amended from time to time.

Holdover

les and Regulations of Ocean Resort Villas


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## DeniseM

GREAT find by undrpar64!


Per above post - it appears that the guest confirmation fee on home resort reservations violates the published rules:



> Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge



*IMPORTANT - Owners at other resorts:  Please log into your VSE Acct. and document the terms there for guests using your owned unit:*

Log into your Vistana Acct
Go to the dashboard
Find the Owner Association Tab
Click on Governing Documents
Select VOI to view
Click on Association Info.
Click on Governing Documents
Scroll down to GUESTS

*Please take a screen shot, before VSE can take down the info. *


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## The Haileys

We were told (yeah I know) that first degree relatives could use our ownership weeks with or without us present. All we had to do was make the reservation, then call owner services to add their names, and verify the relationship. 

Now there will be a charge for this, unless we check-in with them, to prior to? 

And how would this work ... we're banking some of 2017 SOs to use in 2018, added to our ownerships, plus an explorer package, and maybe StarPoints, with the plan of reserving a combination of villas at SVV so we can have a week at Disney with out insanely huge clan of children (Nine!), their spouses/SigOs, and their children (TEN!) Since we'd only be occupying one villa, would we have to pay the fee for EACH villa occupied by our children? Or since we will be there, could we put all the ressies in our name? 

(Yes, this is over a year away, but I am already stressing over it, nevermind the fee! LOL)


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## The Haileys

DeniseM said:


> IMPORTANT - Owners at other resorts:  Please log into your VSE Acct. and document the terms there for guests using your owned unit:
> 
> Log into your Vistana Acct
> Go to the dashboard
> Find the Owner Association Tab
> Click on Governing Documents
> Select VOI to view
> Click on Association Info.
> Click on Governing Documents
> Scroll down to GUESTS
> 
> *Please take a screen shot, before VSE can take down the info. *



I'm downloading the entire document ...


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## DeniseM

The Haileys said:


> Or since we will be there, could we put all the ressies in our name?



If YOU can personally check your guests in, you don't need to put the confirmation in their name - you can simply ADD their names at check-in.


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## DeniseM

WKORV-North has the same statement.  If you are an owner at WKORV North or South - please immediately send an email to Suzanne Clark that includes this quote, even if you have already written a previous complaint.

Gentle suggestion:  Don't be long winded - just include the statement and quote below for maximum impact:



> *VSE is in violation of the published Rules and Regulations:
> 
> Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge* by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time.




**How STUPID are these people that they didn't have their lawyers look at the published rules and regulations?*


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## Larry M

rickandcindy23 said:


> This doesn't happen at independent resorts.



Right, it doesn't! This spring I called up Egrets Pointe and said "I'm letting my son use my deeded week 33 again. I can't remember what I have to do."

Their response: "What's his name?"

Me: "Daniel M___"

Them: "Okay, you're all set."

What more could you ask?

This is a great property by the way, about 20 townhome-style units on a Wyndham property with access to all the Wyndham amenities, but *they are not Wyndham.*" They are independent--in fact the property office is about 2 miles off site.


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## tschwa2

As an FYI if you own a Wyndham deeded unconverted points week, they do not charge the Guest Cert Fee.  They do charge for a GC on  fixed converted weeks even when the home week is reserved.


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## rickandcindy23

I don't think the SBP rules and regs have that free guest thing in them.  I looked briefly, but I am sitting at the lobby of the Hyatt Wild Oak Ranch in San Antonio, catching up on emails before heading to the airport.


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## dioxide45

DeniseM said:


> WKORV-North has the same statement.  If you are an owner at WKORV North or South - please immediately send an email to Suzanne Clark that includes this quote, even if you have already written a previous complaint.
> 
> Gentle suggestion:  Don't be long winded - just include the statement and quote below for maximum impact:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **How STUPID are these people that they didn't have their lawyers look at the published rules and regulations?*


I have found that the governing documents on the Vistana site actually contain multiple documents in one PDF.

For our SVV Bella ownership, this is what it includes:


*Public Offering Statement* (Pages 1 - 32). While this is a binding document and provides a lot of definitions and such, I think this document could be very easily changed by Vistana at any time they desire. To change these, I don't think a vote of the owners or board would be needed.
*Condominium Documents-CC&R* (Pages 33  - 174). These are the rules and regulations that for the resort you ow and are recorded at the county level. Changes to these documents would either require a vote by the board, or by the owners. Of course any changes require that 75% of the owners actually choose to vote, rather unlikely.
*Exhibits to Public Offering Statement* (Pages 175 - 214). Should be the same as the Public Offering Statement
*Starwood Vacation Network Multi-site Offering Plan* (Pages 215 - 277). This is what governs our use of the Vistana Signature Network. As we have seen in the past, Vistana is free to change this at will.
*Interval International Buyers Guide* (Pages 278 - 332). Legal documents of our use of II. Can be pretty much changed at will by Interval International.
*Other *(Pages 333 - 397) - Looks to be documents related to developer purchase, disclosures and explanations related to those that purchase their ownership using a loan or mortgage.

As long as the text you quoted is outlined in section 2, you have a real strong case against Vistana and the new fee. If it is in section 4, then the fee should only apply to guest certificates added to StarOption based reservations and they shouldn't be able to levy it against weeks based reservations.

Of course, it would seem that with Vistana controlling the boards at many of their resorts, I would think changes to 2 could be possible as long as it didn't require a vote of the ownership.

I sure hope that putting pressure on Vistana and contacting them regarding this causes them to rethink the new money grab.


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## ferndale

Letter sent!!!   I find these fees extra annoying as we usually use one of our weeks each year to send a Make-A-Wish child to Maui.  The maintenance fees already are ridiculous, now lets just add a bit more and a bit more!!!  (plus add the fact that I had no idea about resale 15 years ago when we bought the first weeks straight from Starwood pre-construction!!).

ps - thank you to Denise and whoever else took the time to get all those contact infos!!!


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## grgs

The same language is in the Westin Kierland governing docs (p. 2):




Westin Lagunamar's docs also have this language (p. 339):





I tried to look up Sheraton Desert Oasis's docs, but when I click on the link it takes me to SVV-Amelia's instead.


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## PamMo

The resorts' governing documents clearly support that owners should be able to use, gift, or rent their deeded weeks without interference or additional charges from VSE.

Once you use StarOptions to exchange into another resort, VSE can write its own rules. SVN has always had, but never enforced, the _existing_ rule that StarOption exchanges cannot be rented. VSE seems OK with members renting StarOption exchanges now, if they can get paid a Guest Fee.


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## dsmrp

I just checked our governing documents for Vistana Resort, Lakes and Spas.  I thought the Spas R&R would have something more pertinent, but unfortunately both do not.  Mine are more recent additions into SVN, so the documents used a 2014 template which included language that allows them to charge additional reservation fees at their sole discretion.  My Spas document does contain one section on guest usage for home resort reservation period, but does not specify fees:

_(3) Home Resort Reservation Period and Restrictions
(a) On receiving a reservation confirmation for a Vacation Period during the Home
Resort Reservation Period, an SVN Member may use the Vacation Period for personal use or for use by a guest
_
IMO the intent of the language above is for the owner to allow a guest use of their home resort week reserved during their priority reservation period. That is the point I will try to emphasize in my communications to Vistana, as I don't have much else to stand on.

I was glad to read that the WKORV/N documents give proof to the exception to Vistana's one-size-fits-all blanket fee rule.  Owners with older purchases or older HOAs should check their governing docs,  to find more locations that qualify as an exception. Most of us know that exceptions usually cost more to implement and lowers chances of success among a large number of people having to follow more complex rules.  Especially by CS representatives who get minimal training....


----------



## dsmrp

I shall also point out that I bought into HGVC's system after my Vistana purchase, because their resale policies help maintain TS value unlike Vistana's, and so HGVC guest fees aren't as onerous to HGGV owners. Nickle and diming but still retaining TS value is to me, is better than $0 value and new fee after new fee....


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## Markus

It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association. The governing docs, which stipulate no fee or permitted usage refer to the owners association, and not VSE. Although a home resort reservation, VSE is now simply charging a fee for it. 

I hope this is not the case legally, but it could be how they plan to get away with it.

Markus


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## rickandcindy23

There is a place in the SVN agreement for mandatory and voluntary Staroptions that says SVN has a right to charge new fees at any time. So really, their argument will be backed by that clause.


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## DeniseM

> It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association.



This would be a bogus argument because the management company works for, and at the pleasure of the owner's associations.


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## bizaro86

Since I own a voluntry resale week, I am not a member of SVN. I would be glad to accept the fee if they were to grant me a complimentary SVN membership, but I doubt they'd consider that.


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## blondietink

I can't get on the vistana website tonight to look up the governing docs like Denise suggested.  Perhaps they are already changing the governing docs?


----------



## VacationForever

bizaro86 said:


> Since I own a voluntry resale week, I am not a member of SVN. I would be glad to accept the fee if they were to grant me a complimentary SVN membership, but I doubt they'd consider that.


Their new fees apply to both voluntary resale weeks and VSN.


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## SMHarman

Markus said:


> It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association. The governing docs, which stipulate no fee or permitted usage refer to the owners association, and not VSE. Although a home resort reservation, VSE is now simply charging a fee for it.
> 
> I hope this is not the case legally, but it could be how they plan to get away with it.
> 
> Markus


Then how would I make this change directly with the hoa for no fee.   Email then.


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## dioxide45

SMHarman said:


> Then how would I make this change directly with the hoa for no fee.   Email then.


The verbiage in Denise's post does indicate "in writing".


----------



## DavidnRobin

IMO it is 'pie is sky' thinking that the VSN rules were not written with the ability to impose a reservation fee - using the rationale that they shared (regardless of opinion). No doubt, ILG/VSE/VSN Legal has considered all aspects of imposing this fee (likely with powerpoint slides and reviewed at all corporate levels) - as standard practice by large corporations with large Legal departments.  Note steps used by them (e.g. removing online ability to change reservation name) - these were planned months ago.

Note: that ridiculous 'poll' is not from me...


----------



## Robert D

Does anyone know if this fee will be credited to the various resort condo associations or will the Vistana management company keep it?


----------



## SMHarman

Robert D said:


> Does anyone know if this fee will be credited to the various resort condo associations or will the Vistana management company keep it?


It's costing Vista management $59 to put this name on there. 

Of for that great European law that was uses to fight overdraft fees about the cost of the fee being commensurate to the cost of the task.


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## Robert D

Vistana management is already being reimbursed for all of their costs for servicing owners plus a profit.


----------



## Ken555

Markus said:


> It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association. The governing docs, which stipulate no fee or permitted usage refer to the owners association, and not VSE. Although a home resort reservation, VSE is now simply charging a fee for it.
> 
> I hope this is not the case legally, but it could be how they plan to get away with it.
> 
> Markus



Just check SDO, and other than numerous changes in red by II since I last downloaded a copy, there is a section which contains:



> 9. PERMITTED USERS
> A. An Owner may permit another person to occupy the Assigned Unit during the Interval Week without charge by the Association.



Assuming this is correct, then I don't see how Vistana can charge anything for adding a guest name to a reservation since they are the direct management company of the Association and there is no other way to add a guest to a reservation. 

On the other hand, if II wishes to charge the HOA for each guest reservation as part of their management tasks then they may be able to adjust their management contract to do so. This would result in every owner paying for it, but is the only method I can see at this point for them to get away with additional fees.

Or am I mistaken?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## okwiater

I think folks are confused about the distinction between VSN (StarOption) and Home Resort reservations.

If the condo docs specify that an Owner may allow another person to use their unit without charge, then the fee *when applied to home resort usage* is clearly not legal. However, once you have "exchanged" your unit within VSN using StarOptions, Vistana as the operator of that network can impose whatever rules they want. It's no different than II changing or adding fees -- if you don't want to pay them, don't exchange using that network.

I've browsed a few of my association docs already and it seems pretty clear that most of them are going to contain similar language. As mentioned previously, WKV prohibits charging for guest usage. So does SMV.

Vistana should immediately revise and clarify that this fee applies only to VSN reservations, and not Home Resorts. Otherwise they'll probably find themselves on the wrong end of a class action lawsuit.


----------



## dioxide45

okwiater said:


> I think folks are confused about the distinction between VSN (StarOption) and Home Resort reservations.


I think the ones confused are those working for Vistana making these decisions.


----------



## cubigbird

okwiater said:


> I think folks are confused about the distinction between VSN (StarOption) and Home Resort reservations.
> 
> If the condo docs specify that an Owner may allow another person to use their unit without charge, then the fee *when applied to home resort usage* is clearly not legal. However, once you have "exchanged" your unit within VSN using StarOptions, Vistana as the operator of that network can impose whatever rules they want. It's no different than II changing or adding fees -- if you don't want to pay them, don't exchange using that network.
> 
> I've browsed a few of my association docs already and it seems pretty clear that most of them are going to contain similar language. As mentioned previously, WKV prohibits charging for guest usage. So does SMV.
> 
> Vistana should immediately revise and clarify that this fee applies only to VSN reservations, and not Home Resorts. Otherwise they'll probably find themselves on the wrong end of a class action lawsuit.



This is a good point.  However, since the HOA boards are clearly related to VSE, couldn't they just amend the condo docs or would that require a vote by the owners??


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## DeniseM

VSE should not be able to amend the condo Docs.  The BOD's probably can, but there are procedures they must follow.


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## ragdoll

cubigbird said:


> This is a good point.  However, since the HOA boards are clearly related to VSE, couldn't they just amend the condo docs or would that require a vote by the owners??



Here is what it says on page one for WPORV: "These Rules and Regulations may be amended from time to time by the Board of Directors of the Vacation Ownership Plan (the “Board”)." To me, this means they can change anything they like. From what I can tell, the BOD has a Vistana majority.


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## okwiater

As an aside, even though it is to my personal benefit as a 5-star Elite owner, I don't see how it is permissible to offer a reduced fee to Elite owners for this service. Vistana is free to recognize Elite status and offer certain benefits, such as waiver of fees for StarOptions banking and Starpoints conversion, and administration of an Elite waitlist. But those benefits are all part of VSN, not part of standard reservation procedures for one's Home Resort which should apply to all condo owners equally.


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## jhac007

I own Westin Kierland and Vistana Beach Club, downloaded both sets of docs.  As stated by others I see the WKV clause but here is what I see for VBC (so far):

2.5 Transaction Fees. In addition to SVN Membership Fees, SVN Operator has the right to charge such other transaction fees as it deems appropriate in its sole discretion from time to time. Such fees may be charged for transactions including additional reservation request fees, cancellation fees, borrowing fees, Banking fees, rental fees, SVN exchange fees, Starwood Preferred Guest conversion fees, daily use fees, fees for additional housekeeping, and such other items as provided in the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. Daily housekeeping may be made available to guests on request subject to the payment of a fee to the Managing Entity of the SVN Resort in an amount to be published from time to time. SVN Members should inquire as to the amount of the current housekeeping fees with the Managing Entity at the time of check-in. Currently, the only transaction fees charged by SVN Operator are listed on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. These fees include those for the cancellation of a reservation as described in Section 4.7, Banking StarOptions as described in Section 3.6 and the SVN Fees Chart, a Starpoints Conversion Program conversion fee as described on the SVN Fees Chart, fees for additional housekeeping as described in Sections 3.4, 4.2.d and 4.3, daily housekeeping fees as described in this Article, and such other items shown on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion.

and this looks like an addition at some point, bolded by them........

*Currently, the only transaction fees charged by SVN Operator are listed on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. These fees include those for the cancellation of a reservation as described in Section 4.7, Banking StarOptions as described in Section 3.6 and the SVN Fees Chart, a Starpoints Conversion Program conversion fee as described on the SVN Fees Chart, fees for additional housekeeping as described in Sections 3.4, 4.2.d and 4.3, daily housekeeping fees as described in this Article, and such other items shown on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion.*


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## okwiater

jhac007 - There is similar language in the Flex plan documents. But this makes sense only if the fees apply to VSN reservations. How can an exchange program such as VSN apply fees to an Owner's home resort usage?

Furthermore, even if the condo boards wanted to rubber stamp such a fee for home resort usage, I don't see how it could be permissible since it is an obvious breach of fiduciary duty.

Heck, even the management agreement with Vistana "the Management Company" contains a fiduciary duty clause: "Management Company shall act in a fiduciary capacity with respect to the execution of its duties and obligations under this Agreement." This implies that at least some nominal "benefit" to Owners would be necessary prior to the imposition of such a fee.


----------



## okwiater

WKV has additional interesting language: "The Owner of a Unit shall have the absolute right to rent or lease his Unit, but the lease is subject to the covenants, conditions, restrictions, limitations and uses contained in this Declaration. During the lease period for a Residential Unit, the lessee and the family members of lessee and a reasonable number of guests shall have the right to use the Common Elements subject to the provisions of this Declaration and the Residential Unit Owner shall have no right to use the same until the termination or expiration of the lease."

How can an absolute right to rent or lease a Unit be abridged by the imposition of a fee?


----------



## dioxide45

jhac007 said:


> I own Westin Kierland and Vistana Beach Club, downloaded both sets of docs.  As stated by others I see the WKV clause but here is what I see for VBC (so far):
> 
> 2.5 Transaction Fees. In addition to SVN Membership Fees, SVN Operator has the right to charge such other transaction fees as it deems appropriate in its sole discretion from time to time. Such fees may be charged for transactions including additional reservation request fees, cancellation fees, borrowing fees, Banking fees, rental fees, SVN exchange fees, Starwood Preferred Guest conversion fees, daily use fees, fees for additional housekeeping, and such other items as provided in the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. Daily housekeeping may be made available to guests on request subject to the payment of a fee to the Managing Entity of the SVN Resort in an amount to be published from time to time. SVN Members should inquire as to the amount of the current housekeeping fees with the Managing Entity at the time of check-in. Currently, the only transaction fees charged by SVN Operator are listed on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. These fees include those for the cancellation of a reservation as described in Section 4.7, Banking StarOptions as described in Section 3.6 and the SVN Fees Chart, a Starpoints Conversion Program conversion fee as described on the SVN Fees Chart, fees for additional housekeeping as described in Sections 3.4, 4.2.d and 4.3, daily housekeeping fees as described in this Article, and such other items shown on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion.
> 
> and this looks like an addition at some point, bolded by them........
> 
> *Currently, the only transaction fees charged by SVN Operator are listed on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion. These fees include those for the cancellation of a reservation as described in Section 4.7, Banking StarOptions as described in Section 3.6 and the SVN Fees Chart, a Starpoints Conversion Program conversion fee as described on the SVN Fees Chart, fees for additional housekeeping as described in Sections 3.4, 4.2.d and 4.3, daily housekeeping fees as described in this Article, and such other items shown on the SVN Fees Chart as may be amended by SVN Operator from time to time in its sole discretion.*


In our Bella documents, this is on page 256. That is actually part of the *Starwood Vacation Network Multi-site Offering Plan. *So this should only apply to VSN based reservations.


----------



## okwiater

I've spent a lot of time reading docs today. Although the language varies, it seems like the deeded ownerships explicitly allow for use of the Vacation Period by a guest (including for rental purposes). So the imposition of a fee targeting guest usage is legally no different than Vistana imposing a fee for an Owner to reserve the unit for themselves. IANAL, but I don't see how this is legal without a change to the CCRs which would almost certainly require the BOD to violate their fiduciary duty to approve.

Bottom line: Vistana should immediately and retroactively exclude Home Resort reservations from this fee.


----------



## jhac007

okwiater said:


> I've spent a lot of time reading docs today. Although the language varies, it seems like the deeded ownerships explicitly allow for use of the Vacation Period by a guest (including for rental purposes). So the imposition of a fee targeting guest usage is legally no different than Vistana imposing a fee for an Owner to reserve the unit for themselves. IANAL, but I don't see how this is legal without a change to the CCRs which would almost certainly require the BOD to violate their fiduciary duty to approve.
> 
> Bottom line: Vistana should immediately and retroactively exclude Home Resort reservations from this fee.



I totally agree!!!


----------



## DavidnRobin

This is a VSN fee as a claim by them to charge for the current cost of reservation charges (look at current VSN docs and not HOA docs - both are part of CCRs) as this is part of VSN management of VSE reservations.

What should be captured in these arguments is that in our current $140 (and $30) VSN fee already contains the offset the cost of reservation changes - if so, then the VSN fee should be reduced accordingly since they are now charging this fee separately.  Of course, they could comeback with another increase in VSN fees to captured the supposed cost if this method was found to be 'illegal' - which would cause people who do not need to this service to also pay for it.

That is how I would play it if I were in their position if this additional fee is truly against CCRs.


----------



## canesfan

I'm just surprised that Vistana would implement such a fee without legal counsel in the first place. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## okwiater

DavidnRobin said:


> This is a VSN fee as a claim by them to charge for the current cost of reservation charges (look at current VSN docs and not HOA docs - both are part of CCRs) as this is part of VSN management of VSE reservations.



DnR, the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) is just an exchange program that requires membership to participate. If you aren't a member of VSN, then VSN rules can't apply. That said, Vistana Signature Experiences (VSE) has been delegated certain responsibilities as the Management Company to run the resorts and process reservations, but it's worth noting that as the Management Company, they are explicitly bound to act in a fiduciary capacity according to at least one example of the Management Agreement between Vistana and the HOA. Implementing a fee that in no way represents the actual cost of processing a guest name change is a blatant violation of the standard of care to which they are legally bound.

Vistana as a profit-seeking enterprise is welcome to implement any fees they would like when it comes to Vistana Signature Network reservations; however, they are not entitled to do so when it comes to core usage of one's deeded property.

Again, I am not a lawyer, but given the language contained in *some* of the HOA/CCR docs, this fee doesn't appear to be legal at all of the resorts.


----------



## osman

DeniseM said:


> *I just called and asked (and this may not be correct) but was told this only applies to reservations made 1/26 or later.  In other words, if you have a reservation made before 1/26, and change the name after 1/26, the fee won't apply.



I just transferred a reservation made before 1/26, and I was charged a fee.


----------



## Helios

Markus said:


> It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association. The governing docs, which stipulate no fee or permitted usage *refer to the owners association*, and not VSE. Although a home resort reservation, VSE is now simply charging a fee for it.
> 
> I hope this is not the case legally, but it could be how they plan to get away with it.
> 
> Markus


I am not lawyer, but I really think this is their way out.


----------



## dioxide45

Helios said:


> I am not lawyer, but I really think this is their way out.


I doubt it would work. Vistana is working on behalf of the HOA. Since we can't work directly with the HOA and have to go through Vistana, I think they are still in violation. It will be interesting to see the responses to some of the emails to Suzanne on Monday, if she replies.


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> I doubt it would work. Vistana is working on behalf of the HOA. Since we can't work directly with the HOA and have to go through Vistana, I think they are still in violation. It will be interesting to see the responses to some of the emails to Suzanne on Monday, if she replies.


I thought it was established the replies from last week were copy pasted responses that actually had incorrect names (most likely sent by her assistant).  So, it is likely the Monday responses will be the same as last week.


----------



## DeniseM

If the boiler plate responses continue next week, I recommend that we complain through the Dashboard, and/or Facebook, and Linked.


----------



## WBP

DavidnRobin said:


> Happy New Year! We look forward to serving your vacation ownership needs in 2017.
> 
> Please be advised that effective January 26, 2017, a $59 fee will be applied any time an Owner transfers their Vacation Ownership Interest reservation to a third-party guest. This is a result of the volume of requests we receive for these transactions and the resources required to provide this service.
> 
> A third-party guest is either someone not listed on the ownership contract or checking in prior to an Owner’s arrival.
> 
> As a valued Vistana Signature Network™ Elite Member, your fee is reduced from the standard $59:
> 
> •    *5-Star Elite* *$39*
> •    *4-Star Elite* *$49*
> •    *3-Star Elite* *$49*
> 
> Arrangements for third-party guests must be made by calling Elite Special Services directly at 888-786-3548. Any of our Vacation Planning Counselors will be happy to assist you. We ask that you please refrain from calling the resort directly to add a guest name, as the front office staff will be unable to provide this service for you.
> 
> We are working to enhance vistana.com in 2017 to enable Owners to facilitate third-party guest transactions online.
> 
> We hope you get to enjoy great vacations this year. We look forward to assisting you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President, Owner Services
> Vistana Signature Experiences
> *Terms & Conditions*
> Third-party guest is defined as any guest that is not an Owner of record on the Vacation Ownership Interest account attributed to the reservation, or any guest checking in prior to an Owner arrival. Arrangements for third-party guest arrivals must be made by calling Owner Services directly. No online, email, or resort requests will be accepted at this time. Owners and third-party guests are responsible for any personal expenses incurred while occupying a Unit, as well as for any damage, theft, or loss incurred. For security purposes, keys will only be given to the name on the reservation and a valid government or state-issued photo ID is required at check-in.
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> *ADDED by DeniseM -
> 
> If you would like to submit a complaint, here is the Contact info. for:
> 
> Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences:
> 
> Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/
> 
> Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357
> 
> Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com*



Remember, at many sold-out resorts, the Developer/Management Company works for the timeshare owners, at the pleasure of the timeshare owner HOA Board. This is a perfect example of why terms need to be negotiated into the Management Agreement between the HOA Board and the Management Company, specifically addressing what FEES/TERMS a Management Company can impose, and what fees/terms first require HOA Board Approval. In this case, the inmates are running the asylum. These developers need an Attitude Adjustment from consumers/timeshare owners, as in my opinion, they (the developers) are out of control, and they can be controlled by the Management Agreement between the HOA Board and Management Company. This issue may take on a different life, in the case of resorts or points systems that do not have a Home Resort, Home Resort Board, or the Developer has not released control of the resort to the timeshare owners and board.

But, Visanta owners have now seen Vistana's colors. What to do? I'd encourage everyone, to attend a Vistana sales presentation, and then "SAY NO." Take as much of the salespersons time as you can fathom.That will negatively impact the Developer's metrics, cost them money, and make for a very unhappy sales and marketing staff. If the salespeople can't sell their product, that goes right to the purse strings of the timeshare developer.

We consumers need to take over the driver's seat. I am really getting tired of the shenanigans of certain developers/management companies, and I truly can't stand these trade associations that allege to represent the best interests of the consumer.

By the way, for those of you who receive an invitation from your timeshare to make a voluntary contribution to ARDA, The American Resort Developers Association, "SAY NO," and remember that a contribution to ARDA is supporting the anti-consumer mission of timeshare developers. We live in a crazy world, when a timeshare trade association, and developers, have the audacity to ask timeshare owners for "a contribution" to support the trade association of developers, the developers venom, and developers anti-consumer agenda.

The time is NOW for timeshare owners to regain control of the asylum from the inmates.


----------



## DavidnRobin

okwiater said:


> DnR, the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) is just an exchange program that requires membership to participate. If you aren't a member of VSN, then VSN rules can't apply. That said, Vistana Signature Experiences (VSE) has been delegated certain responsibilities as the Management Company to run the resorts and process reservations, but it's worth noting that as the Management Company, they are explicitly bound to act in a fiduciary capacity according to at least one example of the Management Agreement between Vistana and the HOA. Implementing a fee that in no way represents the actual cost of processing a guest name change is a blatant violation of the standard of care to which they are legally bound.
> 
> Vistana as a profit-seeking enterprise is welcome to implement any fees they would like when it comes to Vistana Signature Network reservations; however, they are not entitled to do so when it comes to core usage of one's deeded property.
> 
> Again, I am not a lawyer, but given the language contained in *some* of the HOA/CCR docs, this fee doesn't appear to be legal at all of the resorts.



I understand - however VSN is the entity that all VSE resorts use to control reservations regardless if Mandatory or Voluntary.  Good luck - I suspect that all aspects of this fee have been discussed internally at ILG/VSE/VSN. Perhaps I am incorrect (I hope so), but having worked for a large corporation - I will be surprised if they have not considered the Risk-Benefit of this decision.  I am not defending them.


----------



## dioxide45

Perhaps an owner at one of the resorts with verbiage preventing the fees needs to just get an attorney involved to send Vistana a cease and desist letter?


----------



## tschwa2

DeniseM said:


> GREAT find by undrpar64!
> 
> Per above post - it appears that the guest confirmation fee on home resort reservations violates the published rules:


Which seems like it would apply for home reservations and for certain guests but part of the documentations makes it less than ideal for rental guests and even some family and friends:



> You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests



Vistana could simply require that the owner on record supply their CC information for the security hold and for in room charges and damages unless you pay the fee to switch the reservation into a paid guest certificate.  They could also make it clear to the guests who check in on a non paid guest cert that all room charges and damages would be the responsibility of the owner and the guest need not worry about those charges.


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> I will be surprised if they have not considered the Risk-Benefit of this decision.  I am not defending them.


I agree, they should know they have the advantage and the risk/benefit is worth it.  Otherwise why risk the bad publicity.


----------



## Helios

tschwa2 said:


> Vistana could simply require that the owner on record supply their CC information for the security hold and for in room charges and damages unless you pay the fee to switch the reservation into a paid guest certificate.  They could also make it clear to the guests who check in on a non paid guest cert that all room charges and damages would be the responsibility of the owner and the guest need not worry about those charges.


This is an interesting interpretation.  If this is how it will approached by VSE the guest cert is worth it.


----------



## djyamyam

I called owner services this morning since I needed to add a guest to one of my home resort reservations (I am not a member of the Network).  When I referred to the governing documents that has contrary information to the fee, I was passed to resolution services and now has been referred to a supervisor for further investigation.  I am supposed to get a phone call back so we'll see what happens.  So far, the reservation has not yet been transferred to the 3rd party that I wanted to add


----------



## Robert D

In addition to sending emails and letters to Suzanne Clark complaining about this fee, I think we should also send similar emails and letters to her boss, the CEO of Vistana.  Does anyone have the contact info for the CEO?


----------



## DeniseM

If you haven't sent an email to Suzanne Clark, please do.  Even if you don't use Guest Certificates, you need to stand up for the principle involved to protect your own ownership.  If owners just accept anything that Vistana imposes on us, it will only encourage them to erode owners' rights further, in the future.

*If you *have* sent an email, please let us know by voting in the poll at the top of the thread.

Your email doesn't have to be long - in fact a strong, short statement has more impact:

*Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences:

Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/

Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357

Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com*



> *Charging owners to add a guest to their reservation is a violation of the published Rules and Regulations on the Vistana website:*
> 
> *Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge*_ by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time._


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## Robert D

I just remembered that the Starwood/Vistana timeshare entity was bought by Interval.  Good chance that this junk fee was instituted by Interval who probably knows nothing (or cares) about what the underlying documents say about owner's rights regarding their usage and guests.


----------



## DeniseM

True:  ILG (II's parent company) owns Vistana, but they are only the _management company_. 

The owners own the resorts and Vistana cannot unilaterally change the terms and conditions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Helios

DeniseM said:


> If you haven't sent an email to Suzanne Clark, please do.  Even if you don't use Guest Certificates, you need to stand up for the principle involved to protect your own ownership.  If owners just accept anything that Vistana imposes on us, it will only encourage them to erode owners' rights further, in the future.



Originally I was not going to email because of the negligible effect this fee will have on me. However, I changed my mind.

I will say I am surprised about the large number of upset posters and low number of people who have voted.  Hopefully people emailed but did not vote.


----------



## WBP

DeniseM said:


> If you haven't sent an email to Suzanne Clark, please do.  Even if you don't use Guest Certificates, you need to stand up for the principle involved to protect your own ownership.  If owners just accept anything that Vistana imposes on us, it will only encourage them to erode owners' rights further, in the future.
> 
> *If you *have* sent an email, please let us know by voting in the poll at the top of the thread.
> 
> Your email doesn't have to be long - in fact a strong, short statement has more impact:
> 
> *Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences:
> 
> Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/
> 
> Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357
> 
> Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com*



I don't know what is more disappointing, the "pull the wool over your head" approach of Vistana, or the apathy by TUG members who are Vistana owners, and who have not taken the action requested above, and recorded the action that they took, in the poll above. In my opinion those who dismiss taking action on this issue, are (1) leaving the door open for similar actions by Vistana in the future, (2) naive to think that "this issue does not affect them," even if they do not presently "assign the right of occupancy to someone else."

I get the impression that within the timeshare industry is a "Land of Misfit Toys," somewhere, a conception, breeding, and training ground - - similar to a "Puppy Mill,"" that turns out people who are willing to sell their soul, by aligning themselves with this unscrupulous industry, and its anti-consumer shenanigans. Here's a recent look at Wyndham's "high integrity" Core Values:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/...stle-blowers-20-million-vindication.html?_r=0

And if that's not enough to impress you with the "high integrity" nature of timeshare developers, take a look at this one:

https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/...files/Assurance_of_Discontinuance_Diamond.pdf

And finally, from the archives, this one:

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-...-barring-sales-manhattan-club-timeshare-hotel

In my opinion, the time must end of the days when timeshare owners do not flex their muscles, and allow the inmates to run the asylum.


----------



## WBP

Repeated:

Remember, at many sold-out resorts, the Developer/Management Company works for the timeshare owners, at the pleasure of the timeshare owner HOA Board. This is a perfect example of why terms need to be negotiated into the Management Agreement between the HOA Board and the Management Company, specifically addressing what FEES/TERMS a Management Company can impose, and what fees/terms first require HOA Board Approval. In this case, the inmates are running the asylum. These developers need an Attitude Adjustment from consumers/timeshare owners, as in my opinion, they (the developers) are out of control, and they can be controlled by the Management Agreement between the HOA Board and Management Company. This issue may take on a different life, in the case of resorts or points systems that do not have a Home Resort, Home Resort Board, or the Developer has not released control of the resort to the timeshare owners and board.

But, Visanta owners have now seen Vistana's colors. What to do? I'd encourage everyone, to attend a Vistana sales presentation, and then "SAY NO." Take as much of the salespersons time as you can fathom.That will negatively impact the Developer's metrics, cost them money, and make for a very unhappy sales and marketing staff. If the salespeople can't sell their product, that goes right to the purse strings of the timeshare developer.

We consumers need to take over the driver's seat. I am really getting tired of the shenanigans of certain developers/management companies, and I truly can't stand these trade associations that allege to represent the best interests of the consumer.

By the way, for those of you who receive an invitation from your timeshare to make a voluntary contribution to ARDA, The American Resort Developers Association, "SAY NO," and remember that a contribution to ARDA is supporting the anti-consumer mission of timeshare developers. We live in a crazy world, when a timeshare trade association, and developers, have the audacity to ask timeshare owners for "a contribution" to support the trade association of developers, the developers venom, and developers anti-consumer agenda. 

The time is NOW for timeshare owners to regain control of the asylum from the inmates.


----------



## DeniseM

It appears that Vistana is not responding to the 2nd round of complaints that quote the "no confirmation fee" rule.

This may indicate that they were not aware of the rules, and have no prepared response.

I'm guessing that they are scrambling behind the scenes to see how they can over-turn the rules.

If this means getting board approval, they may get it, because of course, Starwood hand picked the board members by collecting the applications for the elections, and selecting who they will allow to run for the board.  And then when they don't have a quorum for the election, they tell the sitting board who to appoint.

Yeah - it's all rigged...


----------



## mjm1

I just sent an email to Suzanne as well and will add my feedback to the poll. I was able to find the HOA documents for WKV and it did include the rule that a fee would not be charged for this activity. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Mike


----------



## vacationtime1

My email went out to Suzanne over the weekend; no response yet.

We own some ILG shares; I emphasized that being both a shareholder of ILG and a member of SVN, I want to avoid the inevitable litigation over something clearly stated in the bylaws that will cost me litigation expenses on both sides of the issue.


----------



## jhac007

DeniseM said:


> It appears that Vistana is not responding to the 2nd round of complaints that quote the "no confirmation fee" rule.
> 
> This may indicate that they were not aware of the rules, and have no prepared response.
> 
> I'm guessing that they are scrambling behind the scenes to see how they can over-turn the rules.
> 
> If this means getting board approval, they may get it, because of course, Starwood hand picked the board members by collecting the applications for the elections, and selecting who they will allow to run for the board.  And then when they don't have a quorum for the election, they tell the sitting board who to appoint.
> 
> Yeah - it's all rigged...



Is this just known for Maui resorts or for all/most resorts that could be affected?


----------



## DeniseM

> Is this just known for Maui resorts or for all/most resorts that could be affected?



It varies from resort to resort - but you can look it up on your own Vistana Acct:

Log into your Vistana Acct
Go to the dashboard
Find the Owner Association Tab
Click on Governing Documents
Select VOI to view
Click on Association Info.
Click on Governing Documents
Scroll down to GUESTS


----------



## vacatiionking

DeniseM said:


> It appears that Vistana is not responding to the 2nd round of complaints that quote the "no confirmation fee" rule.
> 
> This may indicate that they were not aware of the rules, and have no prepared response.


I sent an email to Suzanne showing excerpts from WKV, SDO and WLM governing docs.  Have not received a reply.  I asked her for a reasonable policy to at least waive the fee for ownership weeks which I don't believe Vistana has any business interjecting themselves between the owner and the resort HOA.


----------



## WBP

vacatiionking said:


> I sent an email to Suzanne showing excerpts from WKV, SDO and WLM governing docs.  Have not received a reply.  I asked her for a reasonable policy to at least waive the fee for ownership weeks which I don't believe Vistana has any business interjecting themselves between the owner and the resort HOA.



How much do you want to bet Suzanne has taken cover behind a wall of attorneys?


----------



## WBP

DeniseM said:


> It appears that Vistana is not responding to the 2nd round of complaints that quote the "no confirmation fee" rule.
> 
> This may indicate that they were not aware of the rules, and have no prepared response.
> 
> I'm guessing that they are scrambling behind the scenes to see how they can over-turn the rules.
> 
> If this means getting board approval, they may get it, because of course, Starwood hand picked the board members by collecting the applications for the elections, and selecting who they will allow to run for the board.  And then when they don't have a quorum for the election, they tell the sitting board who to appoint.
> 
> Yeah - it's all rigged...



Denise, you are 100% correct it is all rigged. There is much to be learned from the former Club Intrawest, and the arduous work of the Club Intrawest Owner's Group to convene a Special General Meeting of Club Intrawest members, the first such meeting in Club Intrawest's 20+ year history. In all of my years in timesharing, I had never before seen a stellar performance like that of the Club Intrawest Owner's Group, and the Special General Meeting that they demanded of the Management Company.


----------



## gmarine

This new nonsense with Starwood/Vistana makes me more glad I got rid of my weeks.   Some of you may remember back in 2009 when Starwood stopped allowing owners to deposit their reserved weeks with II or RCI.  We had hundreds of people emailing, calling and writing letters to Suzanne.  I personally spoke to several attorneys, including one who was involved in the previous RCI lawsuit.  
All the attorneys had similar opinions.  Starwood was in the wrong and violated the contracts and ownership agreements but none would take it on a contingency basis.  All advised that the litigation costs would be enormous and because of that it went nowhere. 

Back then eventually Suzanne and all the Starwood management stopped responding to complaints which is what may end up happening here.  I hope those of you that are affected get somewhere with this. I wish you good luck.


----------



## DeniseM

Hi gmarine - Yes, I'm still tilting at windmills!


----------



## jhac007

DeniseM said:


> It varies from resort to resort - but you can look it up on your own Vistana Acct:
> 
> Log into your Vistana Acct
> Go to the dashboard
> Find the Owner Association Tab
> Click on Governing Documents
> Select VOI to view
> Click on Association Info.
> Click on Governing Documents
> Scroll down to GUESTS


 
Sorry to confuse you but I had already found the document info (for WKV, one of my resorts) and had posted to the fact in an earlier post.  However, my questions was in reference to your statement as follows:

*I'm guessing that they are scrambling behind the scenes to see how they can over-turn the rules.

If this means getting board approval, they may get it, because of course, Starwood hand picked the board members by collecting the applications for the elections, and selecting who they will allow to run for the board. And then when they don't have a quorum for the election, they tell the sitting board who to appoint.

Yeah - it's all rigged...*

To your knowledge how wide spread is this?


----------



## DeniseM

I only know what has been posted here - I can only look at the rules for my own resorts (WKORV & SDO.)


----------



## dss

No response to my email sent over the weekend as well.


----------



## Helios

dss said:


> No response to my email sent over the weekend as well.


Same here...


----------



## LisaRex

Careful, or they might try imposing a "Reply to Email" fee!


----------



## tropical1

I received this response today...

Dear Susan, 

Vistana is preparing clarification of this new policy and will communicate swiftly.

Thank you for your feedback, 

Suzanne Clark


----------



## alohakevin

I have sent two emails to Suzanne with no response as of yet. Just got this in an email. Wonder what I will comment on?


CLOSE HEADER CONTENT // START

KEVIN 

Thank you for reaching out to us recently. 

As we continue to strive towards excellence, we would greatly appreciate your feedback. Please take this short survey to help us improve our quality of service.

Thank you for your participation and thank you for being a member of Vistana Signature Experiences.

Sincerely,


Suzanne Clark
Vice President, Owner Services 
CTA

START SURVEY

CTA // END


----------



## bizaro86

Dors anyone know if the SDO docs require a no charge guest usage similar to the wording posted for wkv etc?


----------



## Ken555

bizaro86 said:


> Dors anyone know if the SDO docs require a no charge guest usage similar to the wording posted for wkv etc?



Yes, it does. I checked mine when I first saw this thread and it was clear to me. There should not be any charge.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rubbernyc

No reply for me either...


----------



## bizaro86

Thanks! Off to send my email now...


----------



## DanCali

vacationtime1 said:


> My email went out to Suzanne over the weekend; no response yet.
> 
> We own some ILG shares; I emphasized that being both a shareholder of ILG and a member of SVN, I want to avoid the inevitable litigation over something clearly stated in the bylaws that will cost me litigation expenses on both sides of the issue.




Ah - but remember that as of last year they forced owners to agree to arbitration unless you specifically opted out...

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/svn-new-arbitration-provision.234529/

I wouldn't be surprised if Interval imposed that as a condition of the acquisition. Few will go to arbitration for $60 and if there is a class action it's a small class...


----------



## DeniseM

Just keeping this topic at the top of the forum - where Vistana can see it.

If you haven't sent them an email - please do so - you can copy and paste if you like, to make it easy:

Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com

Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/

Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357​
*To:  Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences

Charging owners to add a guest to their reservation is a violation of the published Rules and Regulations on the Vistana website:*

_*"Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by the Association subject to the following restrictions: *
(i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time."_​


----------



## ciscogizmo1

I'm late to the party but I just rented my week today and I was of course charged the fee:

I took up as much time as possible of the customer service rep to make sure I got my $59 worth out of it.  I tried to obtain a receipt for the transaction and was told no receipt was able.   So, I got transferred to a supervisor who just repeated the same thing the rep said.  I took up at least 20 minutes of her time.  I begged for an address to send a letter to.  At first she gave me her supervisor's address but I asked if the supervisor would waive the fee and she said no.  So, I said I need someone higher up.  She gave me another name but it was just a resolutions group.  I said I need someone's name with the title "VP" in it.  She finally gave me Suzanne Clark's name. 

Anyways, I emailed Suzanne.  I'm sure I'm too late but I asked why I couldn't get receipt for the transaction.  I also asked what was my $59 getting me.  I still have to wait 24 to 48 hours for an email confirmation.  I can't get a receipt that you charged my credit card.  I also threw in the security feature as well.  My questions were very specific so hopefully, I don't get a canned response.   I also emailed again with the governing docs quote as well and I asked for refund.


----------



## taffy19

All SO ridiculous!


----------



## dsmrp

DeniseM said:


> Just keeping this topic at the top of the forum - where Vistana can see it.
> 
> If you haven't sent them an email - please do so - you can copy and paste if you like, to make it easy:
> 
> Vistana Email:  suzanne.clark@vistana.com
> 
> Linked: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzanne-clark-7786852/
> 
> Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/suzanne.clark.357​
> *To:  Suzanne Clark, Vice President Owner Services at Vistana Signature Experiences
> 
> Charging owners to add a guest to their reservation is a violation of the published Rules and Regulations on the Vistana website:*
> 
> _*"Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by the Association subject to the following restrictions: *
> (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time."_​



So far I've read on this thread that the guest without charge rule only applies to SDO, WKORV/N, WKV and WLM.
Unfortunately it does not apply to SVR (at least my units); maybe to people who bought earlier???
Maybe I missed it, but anyone own at and checked SVV, SMV, WMH, WDW (Desert willow)  WPORV etc docs??

I submitted my email a few days ago, but no response....will be surprised to get one.
Since I have no R&R exception, I phrased my message differently and compared VSE less favorably to HGVC


----------



## tschwa2

Harborside and Sheraton Broadway Plantation also contain the no fee for guest cert language.


----------



## SMHarman

tschwa2 said:


> Harborside and Sheraton Broadway Plantation also contain the no fee for guest cert language.





dsmrp said:


> So far I've read on this thread that the guest without charge rule only applies to SDO, WKORV/N, WKV and WLM.
> Unfortunately it does not apply to SVR (at least my units); maybe to people who bought earlier???
> Maybe I missed it, but anyone own at and checked SVV, SMV, WMH, WDW (Desert willow)  WPORV etc docs??
> 
> I submitted my email a few days ago, but no response....will be surprised to get one.
> Since I have no R&R exception, I phrased my message differently and compared VSE less favorably to HGVC


I speculate that SVN never imposed this fee because their lawyers knew the content of the underlying docs better than ILG/Vistana.

It's not as if it is an unusual fee in the peer group. Who else does not charge? Disney, Marriott?

Though arbitration does make this a tough nut to fight.


----------



## VacationForever

My guess is that with the protests from owners, they will rescind on the reservation guest fees... an oops moment for them.


----------



## Helios

HAR Language:

"Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your assigned Unit during your Vacation Period(s) without charge by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the check-in and check-out procedures, and (iii) you must be in compliance with the Governing Documents. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests may apply, and may be amended from time to time."


----------



## jw0

tschwa2 said:


> Harborside and Sheraton Broadway Plantation also contain the no fee for guest cert language.


Interesting.  I found the language in the Harborside II governing document, but I could not find it for the Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  It's a long document so it's possible that I'm missing it, but it definitely is a definite document than what I have for the Harborside II.


----------



## tschwa2

I did a quick look now and can't find it either but I did see it the first time I checked last week before saving it to my Onedrive.


----------



## ciscogizmo1

Okay, I just rented my unit on Friday.   I normally ask for $200 deposit and I put the unit in their name and then, forward them the email.  Also tell them they can call.  So, the renter calls and they told him that the reservation was under a different name.  So of course, the renter was a little suspicious.  I called owner services to confirm the reservation was in their name and they said yes.   At no point the rep did not say that they couldn't call.   So, I gave the renter the owner services number to call and they refused to verify.  So, I called owner services back and had them verify via a 3 way call.  Talk about wasting time.   So, the renter and I made 4 calls.  Is this a new policy where they won't verify over the phone to the renter that the unit is in their name?  I also notice they never asked for the renter's address?  Is that new?  What do they verify check-in against?  ID?


----------



## DavidnRobin

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Is this a new policy where they won't verify over the phone to the renter that the unit is in their name?  I also notice they never asked for the renter's address?  Is that new?  What do they verify check-in against?  ID?



Yes. Correct. ID.


----------



## bogey21

daviator said:


> What's to stop them from raising that fee, or adding additional fees for "services" which we all thought were part of what we were already paying for?



The answer is "nothing".  Corporate entities are always looking for ways to increase their income and profits and there is nothing you can do to stop them.

George


----------



## DeniseM

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Okay, I just rented my unit on Friday.   I normally ask for $200 deposit and I put the unit in their name and then, forward them the email.  Also tell them they can call.  So, the renter calls and they told him that the reservation was under a different name.  So of course, the renter was a little suspicious.  I called owner services to confirm the reservation was in their name and they said yes.   At no point the rep did not say that they couldn't call.   So, I gave the renter the owner services number to call and they refused to verify.  So, I called owner services back and had them verify via a 3 way call.  Talk about wasting time.   So, the renter and I made 4 calls.  Is this a new policy where they won't verify over the phone to the renter that the unit is in their name?  I also notice they never asked for the renter's address?  Is that new?  What do they verify check-in against?  ID?


This started Dec. 1 - there has been zero notification about it from Vistana, although there is a thread about it here.  The rollout was rough - great confusion/misinformation from Reps.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


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## GrayFal

SMHarman said:


> I speculate that SVN never imposed this fee because their lawyers knew the content of the underlying docs better than ILG/Vistana.
> 
> It's not as if it is an unusual fee in the peer group. Who else does not charge? Disney, Marriott?
> 
> Though arbitration does make this a tough nut to fight.


Bluegreen does not charge.


----------



## tschwa2

I don't know of any other major developer that charges for deeded weeks (that aren't enrolled in any points program).  My current weeks include deeded Wyndham, Marriott, Holiday Inn, BlueGreen - of these Wyndham is the only one that charges guest certs if your week has been converted to points both for using ARP at the deeded week and booking at other resorts.  Hilton does not charge deeded non points -affiliates but does charge owners booking  for guests outside of their home week period.  

The former Gold Key resorts that are now managed by DRI requires you to specify usage prior to 30 or 60 days and changes including adding a guest name within this period are charged a fee. I think Westgate has similar rules at many of their resorts. I believe DRI managed deeded non points weeks at their core resorts do not require a fee to add a guest cert.    

I would imagine Hyatt does but I don't know that for sure.


----------



## heathpack

tschwa2 said:


> I would imagine Hyatt does but I don't know that for sure.



Yes, Hyatt does charge.


----------



## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> Yes, Hyatt does charge.


No coincidence that Hyatt is also owned by ILG.


----------



## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> No coincidence that Hyatt is also owned by ILG.



Hyatt always charged for this (or at least as long as I've owned).  This predates being owned by ILG.


----------



## SMHarman

heathpack said:


> Hyatt always charged for this (or at least as long as I've owned).  This predates being owned by ILG.


Ah so ILG is just adjusting and equalizing the terms of their owned programs.


----------



## cubigbird

Have we heard any further responses from VSE or are they just ignoring owners now?


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Have we heard any further responses from VSE or are they just ignoring owners now?


Post #211 is the last reported response.


----------



## DeniseM

> Have we heard any further responses from VSE or are they just ignoring owners now?



I don't think they are ignoring owners - I think they are scrambling madly behind the scenes to figure out how to circumvent the published rules.  It's hard to understand how they could have implemented a fee, without reviewing the existing terms and conditions.  It doesn't speak well of organization and management.


----------



## STEPHEN C. ELLEN

cubigbird said:


> Have we heard any further responses from VSE or are they just ignoring owners now?


Here is the letter I emailed Suzanne Clark, along with every other LinedIn Executive I could find:

Ms. Clark:

When I purchased my 4 weeks at Kaanapali North 10 years ago, a primary part of the sales agents' pitch was the ease of renting units to 3rd party guests. In fact, many of the sales agents had purchased units for themselves, with the intent of renting them during weeks they would not be utilizing them personally.

I was astounded that I was required to pay a fee for the 3rd party reservation I transferred yesterday. This is in direct violation of the information provided by your sales team, the past 10 years of precedent, and your own Vistana rules and regulations posted for WKORV North and South. allowing 3rd party rentals with no fee:

*Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge* by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time.

You describe this fee as required due to the increase in 3rd party rentals, however, and hypocritically, you removed the on-line capability of guests updating their own reservations with the 3rd party guest information shortly before changing this policy. On-line updates of this information do not require any time or effort on the part of your reservation agents.

You also removed the ability of 3rd party guests to verify by phone that their information has been updated by the owner. You clearly feel that working against owner's ability to rent to 3rd parties will help Vistana's profitability but it is just undermining your brand and causing negative reviews on multiple public web-sites to expand.

I myself have chosen to now not even respond to your emails offering reduced rate stays at Kaanapali and I have changed my mind about ever considering adding to my ownership at the Westin Nanea Ocean Villas. I will actively recommend that no owners ever purchase from Vistana, both privately, and on any public forum available to potential buyers.

Vistana has proven to be aligned against the interest of current owners, petty, and hypocritical. Most importantly, you have chosen to institute a policy that is in direct violation of your own posted policies and your sales agents promises.

I am requesting contact information on the Vistana in house counsel.

I can also promise highly critical comments on every public domain rating the experience of time-share owners. You have betrayed both the spirit of Starwood Vacation Ownership, the specific sales agent promises, and the *published rules and regulations of Vistana *on your website for WKORV owners.

It is shocking that you continue to hide behind boilerplate email responses to owners reaching out to you, all sent by your assistant, expressing sympathy with the complaints, yet not moving to correct this terrible policy.

Regards,

Steve

-- 
Stephen C. Ellen, M.D.


----------



## DeniseM

Excellent letter - thank you for sharing it with Tuggers.


----------



## GrayFal

DeniseM said:


> Excellent letter - thank you for sharing it with Tuggers.


Great letter.  Hope you get a response.  I have not received anythung from Suzanne or thru the usual channels.


----------



## okwiater

My turn to write a letter:

Ms. Clark,

I am writing to you as a 5-star Elite Owner with regard to the recent implementation of a fee for third-party guest usage of Vistana timeshare properties. I am sure you have been inundated with feedback, so I will be as direct as possible: the fee in its current implementation is flawed for the following three reasons.

First, the fee was implemented without advance notice. I received my first and only notification regarding this fee at 11:00pm on January 25th, a mere one hour prior to its taking effect and after Owner Services had closed for the evening. This deprived me of any opportunity to avoid the fee for existing reservations. As a member of numerous travel programs which have undergone changes throughout the years, this "under the cover of night" approach is a first. I personally had three reservations already booked which we intend to be used by a friend, and now I will either have to pay the fee out-of-pocket or look quite silly in requesting reimbursement after I had already told our friend that she could use our timeshare for free. If I had known about the policy change in advance, I could have avoided the fee in this case, and in the future I would be able to disclose it. Instead, the clumsy and amateurish way you decided to implement this fee has done lasting damage to your brand in my eyes, as well as in those of our friends.

Second, the fee was implemented under misleading pretenses. Your stated reasoning, that the fee is "a result of the volume of requests we receive for these transactions and the resources required to provide this service," is politispeak at best, and demonstrably false at worst. Mere weeks prior to the implementation of this fee, requests to add guest names to existing reservations could already be completed online. This feature was abruptly removed and then this fee was implemented. You go on to state that vistana.com will be enhanced in 2017 to facilitate these transactions online. Does $39-$59 really represent the cost of processing an online guest name change? If so, that implies a serious management failure, since replacing a human-driven guest name change process with an automated, self-service web feature should reduce costs rather than raise them. Your lack of forthrightness regarding the reasoning for this fee is insulting to me as an Owner and a customer.

Last, and most important, the fee was implemented in violation of your own published Rules and Regulations, as well as many if not most of the CC&Rs. The plain language in these documents states that the properties can be used by third-party guests without charge. For instance, the "Resort Vacation Ownership Rules and Regulations of Scottsdale Sonoran Villas Vacation Ownership Plan" document, which applies to Westin Kierland Villas and was obtained directly from vistana.com after implementation of the fee, states on the second page: "10. Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your reserved Vacation Unit during your Use Period(s) *without charge* by the Vacation Owners Association..." (emphasis mine). I am aware that similar language exists for other Vistana resorts as well. As such, the application of this fee to Home Resort reservations is in direct contradiction to these documents. Even if some resort documents don't contain this specific language, applying this fee to any Home Resort reservation is objectionable considering that an Owner should be permitted to assign usage of his or her deeded or owned property in any manner of his or her choosing without additional charge. Of course, none of this language prevents you from assessing a third-party guest fee for Vistana Signature Network reservations; however, I would still expect the new fees to be published on an updated Vistana Signature Network Fees chart since that is what's referenced throughout the Rules and Regulations documents.

In summary, the new third-party guest usage fee for Vistana timeshare properties is not only poorly conceived but badly implemented: it was announced with no forewarning, it was justified using dubious reasoning, and it was enacted with complete disregard for the published rules. As a 5-star Elite Owner who had been considering a purchase at Westin Nanea, this violation of trust, decency, and common sense has caused me to question whether Vistana is a company with which I will continue to do business. Therefore, I am requesting that you immediately reconsider the implementation of this policy in the following ways: (1) Clarify that the fee does not apply to any Home Resort reservations; (2) Announce a delay in implementation of the policy for a reasonable period of time (e.g. 30 days) to allow Vistana time to update their VSN documents as well as for people with existing reservations to avoid the fee; and (3) Provide refunds to those who have already paid the fee. Anything short of the above is a breach of trust that will likely do irreparable damage to your brand as well as the long-term prospects of your business.

Sincerely,

okwiater & DW


----------



## DeniseM

Well done, except I complete disagree with this:  





> (2) Announce a delay in implementation of the policy for a reasonable period of time (e.g. 30 days) to *allow Vistana time to update their VSN documents*


Vistana is JUST the management company - they do not have the authority to unilaterally change the terms and conditions that have existed for many years.  Do you really want to OK that?  IMNSHO, it sets a dangerous precedence, and probably isn't even legal.  The management company can't simply changed the terms that we purchased under.


----------



## okwiater

DeniseM said:


> Well done, except I complete disagree with this:
> Vista is JUST the management company - they do not have the authority to unilaterally change the terms and conditions that have existed for many years.  Do you really want to OK that?  IMNSHO, it sets a dangerous precedence, and probably isn't even legal.  The management company can't simply changed the terms that we purchased under.



The VSN fees chart is for Vistana Signature Network reservations only, which is a trading program. Unilaterally adding a fee for VSN reservations is distasteful but totally allowable. It's no different than raising the VSN membership fee. They don't need HOA concurrence.


----------



## DeniseM

Whether the fee is for home resort reservations, or Staroptions reservations, it is totally contrived, and simply a money grab from Vistana.   

As you wrote yourself, the glaring evidence is their elimination of the on-line tool that owners could previously use to request their own guest confirmations, right before they rolled out the fee.


----------



## okwiater

DeniseM said:


> Whether the fee is for home resort reservations, or Staroptions reservations, it is totally contrived, and simply a money grab from Vistana.
> 
> As you wrote yourself, the glaring evidence is their elimination of the on-line tool that owners could previously use to request their own guest confirmations, right before they rolled out the fee.



It may be a money-grab, but they aren't operating the VSN out of the goodness of their hearts. They want to make money and I have no problem with that. I may dislike it but I don't have a fundamental or ethical objection to it. My problem is purely with them doing things they're not entitled to do.


----------



## DeniseM

But, we are *already* paying huge maintenance fees, and VSN fees - for them to tack on a high additional fee *for no extra service*, is simply larceny.

Being "OK" with that simply opens the door for future fees.


----------



## tschwa2

The online tool was never automated.  It just went into a queue where a Vistana employee still had to work the change manually.  



> Whether the fee is for home resort reservations, or Staroptions reservations, it is totally contrived, and simply a money grab from Vistana.


  Yes they are both contrived money grabs but the documents specified that home resort reservations should be able to add a guest without a fee.  There was no such mention of club reservations.


----------



## okwiater

DeniseM said:


> But, we are *already* paying huge maintenance fees, and VSN fees - for them to tack on a high additional fee *for no extra service*, is simply larceny.
> 
> Being "OK" with that simply opens the door for future fees.



I never said I was "OK" with it. I am simply saying it's permissible. I think it's important to reserve our indignation for things that are plainly wrong, as opposed to things we just don't like.


----------



## SMHarman

okwiater said:


> The VSN fees chart is for Vistana Signature Network reservations only, which is a trading program. Unilaterally adding a fee for VSN reservations is distasteful but totally allowable. It's no different than raising the VSN membership fee. They don't need HOA concurrence.


So a home resort reservation should not be subject to the fee.

So the only people that should be hit by this are.

1)Owners gifting usage of staroptions to family members.

2) Owners renting non home resort reservations against T&C.

Now curiously why would a family member want confirmation that your 'gift' is valid.  

Surely any three way confirm call to confirm a reservation that is not home resort should automatically result in cancelation of that reservation for being against T&C.

Boy would that improve exchange availability.


----------



## Ken555

Obviously, Vistana/II will do whatever they can to increase fees. If it's not explicitly disallowed in the governing documents and if they can't change those documents...then we should expect such fees to be added in the future. This really shouldn't be a surprise to any of us, and most of us have written on TUG that we should expect such actions for 10+ years!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dsmrp

SMHarman said:


> So a home resort reservation should not be subject to the fee.
> 
> So the only people that should be hit by this are.
> 
> 1)Owners gifting usage of staroptions to family members.
> 
> 2) Owners renting non home resort reservations against T&C.
> 
> Now curiously why would a family member want confirmation that your 'gift' is valid.
> 
> ....



Yes a home resort reservation shouldn't be subject to the fee.
Suppose  family members, e.g. adult children are arriving much earlier to resort than I am. If I want to add their name on the reservation so they can check in and not have to wait for me, then I shouldn't have to pay for it.  There's no reasonable leeway here when VSE is specifying the names have to be on the deed in order to avoid the fee for any reservation. If I'm making a SVN options reservation and I want my daughter to check-in early, then per my SVN docs, I'll need to pay the fee.

VSE can per the T&C, charge fees for SVN reservations, cancellations etc...and they probably will some day.  They'll then look a lot more like HGVC's fee structure...but HGVC's (current)policies at least allow for owners to retain some resale value.


----------



## SMHarman

dsmrp said:


> Yes a home resort reservation shouldn't be subject to the fee.
> Suppose  family members, e.g. adult children are arriving much earlier to resort than I am. If I want to add their name on the reservation so they can check in and not have to wait for me, then I shouldn't have to pay for it.  There's no reasonable leeway here when VSE is specifying the names have to be on the deed in order to avoid the fee for any reservation. If I'm making a SVN options reservation and I want my daughter to check-in early, then per my SVN docs, I'll need to pay the fee.
> 
> VSE can per the T&C, charge fees for SVN reservations, cancellations etc...and they probably will some day.  They'll then look a lot more like HGVC's fee structure...but HGVC's (current)policies at least allow for owners to retain some resale value.


And if you told your daughter her name was on the booking would she want a conference call wit SVN to confirm


----------



## dsmrp

SMHarman said:


> And if you told your daughter her name was on the booking would she want a conference call wit SVN to confirm



A conference call would certainly help distinguish the real family from the calabash cousins, wouldn't it ???   I don't rent my TS weeks, even if I could; we do the old fashioned thing of using our TS ownerships 

I'd expect no fee if I was only ADDING their name to the reservation, not taking mine off of it.
If I were gifting home resort week use to my children, then I'd begrudgingly pay for a guest cert, just as if were an II exchange.  I don't see an easy/low cost way to distinguish renters from friends or family on SVN reservations. But it should be fairly easy for VSE to identify home resort reservations.


----------



## canesfan

Maybe instead of an email campaign we should be tweeting our displeasure. New potential owners will see it and Vistana will not like it on their feed with a bunch of displeased owners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman

canesfan said:


> Maybe instead of an email campaign we should be tweeting our displeasure. New potential owners will see it and Vistana will not like it on their feed with a bunch of displeased owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And a Facebook group

And a hash tag #vsnjunkfees? 

And using their hashtags #vacationlife

Also trip advisor reviews.


----------



## Bierhund

A campaign to damage VSE will only devalue what you own.  Driving potential owners away will eventually cause your maintenance fees to go up, as costs are spread across fewer users.  Long after the issue of transfer fees is resolved, twitter feeds and negative trip advisor reviews remain.
By all means, express your displeasure to VSE management, but keep it in-house and make sure you don't shoot yourself (and the rest of us) in the foot in the process.


----------



## cubigbird

I've been wondering why we haven't done this.  The majority of owners have no idea TUG exists.  We have to get the message out.  I know airlines and hotel chains really strive to answer problems stated on social media so to not tarnish their image.


----------



## cubigbird

canesfan said:


> Maybe instead of an email campaign we should be tweeting our displeasure. New potential owners will see it and Vistana will not like it on their feed with a bunch of displeased owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Based on the lack of replies it doesn't sound like the email campaign is getting through.


----------



## DeniseM

I am sure it's getting through - but Vistana is not prepared to respond right away, because they apparently didn't know that they implemented a rule that violates the current terms and conditions.  I would not expect to hear from them until they figure out what they are going to do.


----------



## lily28

DeniseM said:


> I am sure it's getting through - but Vistana is not prepared to respond right away, because they apparently didn't know that they implemented a rule that violates the current terms and conditions.  I would not expect to hear from them until they figure out what they are going to do.


----------



## canesfan

I don't see how putting this out on Social Media devalues what we own.  By implementing these bogus fees, they are devaluing what we own.  By lying to us in the sales office and owner updates, they are devaluing what we own.  Almost every day, someone posts on here about some outrageous lie the sales office feed them either to a potential sale or to an owner.  Heck, they are probably still telling them to rent out their weeks to help out with MF (not mentioning the new fee associated with it)!   I think giving them a voice on social media to respond would be a good thing  They can either right the wrong OR show us how committed they are to the money grab.  Either way, we'll see the Vistana future clearly.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Maybe they can change the documents, which requires each of us to print the many pages of legal crap, before they are changed.  I am thinking of doing that, so if they say at some point that I am wrong about the wording, I can prove to them that the wording was there.  

Could be they will just have to apply this new rule to new owners.  I would bet it won't be any part of their sales presentation.  

Years ago, when we attended a presentation at Wyndham Bali Hai, the salesperson was telling us all about free guests for platinum membership.  He said unlimited.  I said not unlimited.  He argued with me.  I told him he was absolutely incorrect in telling people that.  Then he finally admitted there is a fee "after a certain number" of free GC's.  So of course they still lie about the unlimited number for Platinum membership.  It is so blatant.


----------



## jhac007

rickandcindy23 said:


> Maybe they can change the documents, which requires each of us to print the many pages of legal crap, before they are changed.  I am thinking of doing that, so if they say at some point that I am wrong about the wording, I can prove to them that the wording was there.



Why not just download all the documents and save them as files on your hard drive (which also should be backed up) therefore you don't have to waste a lot of paper (nor deal with the hassle)? I did that early and am sure many others did also!


----------



## glord

DeniseM said:


> I don't think they are ignoring owners - I think they are scrambling madly behind the scenes to figure out how to circumvent the published rules.  It's hard to understand how they could have implemented a fee, without reviewing the existing terms and conditions.  It doesn't speak well of organization and management.



Here is the exchange I had with Suzanne Clark.  No response as of yet to my last message . . . 

Thank you for your response Suzanne.

While I understand such a fee if an owner is "VRBOing" their unit/use period, it absolutely should not apply when family members or family friends are using it.  

In any case, my wife and I hold ownership in a trust where the two of us and our two sons are trustees. I don't see how Vistana could require payment of this fee if any of the four trustees use our ownership. 

Gary Lord

__________________________________________________________________

On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:01 AM, Suzanne Clark <Suzanne.Clark@vistana.com> wrote:

Dear Gary and Tami, 

Thank you for your feedback. We (Vistana) are working to clarify the new guest reservation administration fee. Thank you for your patience as we work through the details. 

Suzanne Clark 
Sent from my iPhone

___________________________________________________________________

On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Gary & Tami Primary <gtlord2@comcast.net> wrote:

I received no response to my message of last week.  VSE is in violation of the published rules and regulations:


Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time. 

Gary Lord (5 Star Elite Owner)


----------



## DavidnRobin

jhac007 said:


> Why not just download all the documents and save them as files on your hard drive (which also should be backed up) therefore you don't have to waste a lot of paper (nor deal with the hassle)? I did that early and am sure many others did also!



I have CCRs on CDs and as PDFs - However, it is ludicrous to think they would change documents and think that no one will notice.

As mentioned, this change has to do with VSN (SVN) docs and not HOA docs.  If one looks at VSN docs - it surely states that changes can be made at the discretion of VSN (like how they change VSN fees...).  If so (and likely), fine... but an argument needs to be made that if this reservation change fee is imposed, then the VSN fee(s) should be reduced as it previously contained the cost of reservation changes that is now covered by the fee.


----------



## DeniseM

I just talked to an owner at WKORV - she called and got a guest confirmation for a home resort reservation a few minutes ago, and she was NOT charged a fee, nor was it mentioned.

I'm hoping that Vistana is rolling the fee back, and this isn't just an error.


----------



## VacationForever

If they indeed realized that they do not have legal right to charge, they should refund all guest fees that they have collected todate.


----------



## okwiater

I hope you're right, but my enthusiasm is tempered. I just called to attempt a name change on both a Home Resort and VSN/StarOptions reservation and was told the fee applied to both changes.


----------



## DeniseM

Hmmm... I can't say I am surprised - they do make a lot of errors.


----------



## suzannesimon

They charged me yesterday.  However, I got the name wrong and had to call back.  They didn't charge me another $59 the second time.  I guess I should be grateful for small favors.


----------



## osman

It has been stated a couple of times in this thread that reservations cannot be sent to a third party. It's not obvious, but there is a way to do it, and it worked for me on a rental last week. On your Vistana home page, click View All Stays. Scroll down to the stay you're interested in. Under Available Actions, choose Email My Confirmation. Your own email will be filled in, but you can change this to any email address. Change it to your renter's email. I like to use this technique with rentals because renters feel more comfortable about renting if they get an email directly from Vistana/Starwood.

Given that this option currently exists, I can't see how Vistana could legitimately justify removing it. If they do remove it, it would be a clear sign that they want to make renting difficult for owners, which as other have pointed out, goes directly against their sales pitches for the past 10 years.


----------



## alohakevin

I would imagine their main intent is to make renting more difficult. Less inventory for them to control potentially. I have a feeling we will be seeing more deterrents. Just speculation on my behalf.


----------



## okwiater

osman said:


> Given that [the "E-mail My Confirmation"] option currently exists, I can't see how Vistana could legitimately justify removing it.



Hmmm... it's a stretch, but I suppose Vistana could remove the "e-mail my confirmation" feature from the website and force owners to call Owner Services for confirmations instead. Then, after a few weeks, they could charge $59 per confirmation "due to the volume of requests."

Nah, on second thought, that seems pretty far fetched. Right?


----------



## Helios

okwiater said:


> Hmmm... it's a stretch, but I suppose Vistana could remove the "e-mail my confirmation" feature from the website and force owners to call Owner Services for confirmations instead. Then, after a few weeks, they could charge $59 per confirmation "due to the volume of requests."
> 
> Nah, on second thought, that seems pretty far fetched. Right?


They would never do that...it would be like removing the ability to request a name change online...


----------



## DavidnRobin

Update: VSN intends to send Owners a clarification regarding the name change fee by the end of the work week.
It will be interesting to see Vistana's response.  It does reflect that an email campaign gets a response - whether it is one with a positive outcome is another matter...


----------



## JudyS

This is probably related to what David just said. I called VSE about an hour ago to put a reservation into a guest's name. The person I spoke to said they couldn't do that until Friday. She said there was a specific reason, but she wasn't allowed to tell me what it was. All will be revealed Friday, she said!


----------



## Helios

JudyS said:


> This is probably related to what David just said. I called VSE about an hour ago to put a reservation into a guest's name. The person I spoke to said they couldn't do that until Friday. She said there was a specific reason, but she wasn't allowed to tell me what it was. All will be revealed Friday, she said!


Excellent, I love mystery...


----------



## dsmrp

Helios said:


> Excellent, I love mystery...


Ditto!

IMO, any change they make is due solely to legal conflicts to the governing docs.


----------



## Scotten

Thanks for the heads up, I was not happy to get the email from Vistana. This is crap - I don't own at Vistana resorts to make money but want to rent them in years that I can't use it. After my last (unrelated) call and the long hold times (versus 4-5-6 years ago), I assume they've reduced their call center staff but now realize they went too far in reducing headcount.

I'll be firing off an email later today.


----------



## DeniseM

> This is probably related to what David just said. I called VSE about an hour ago to put a reservation into a guest's name. The person I spoke to said they* couldn't do that until Friday*. She said there was a specific reason, but she wasn't allowed to tell me what it was. All will be revealed Friday, she said!



Someone just let me know that they just got a guest confirmation a few minutes ago, they were not told they had to wait until Friday, and they paid $59 - so as usual, the Reps. who answer the phone are providing inconsistent info.

It is pretty amazing how poor the training/communication is in this office.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Someone just let me know that they just got a guest confirmation a few minutes ago, they were not told they had to wait until Friday, and they paid $59 - so as usual, the Reps. who answer the phone are providing inconsistent info.
> 
> It is pretty amazing how poor the training/communication is in this office.



Or it may be resort dependent, or reservation type?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM

> Or it may be resort dependent, or reservation type?



I don't know - is that a hint?


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> I don't know - is that a hint?



It was a question to potential responses from VSN (for example: HomeResort reservations vs. SO/FO reservations; or WKORV/N but not WSJ-VGV) - I have same information as everyone here (which are unfortunately extremely under-representated %-wise, but the most-informed).


----------



## Dawnwrey

I received this email from VSE this morning:

Dear Elite Owner, 

Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee for members of the Vistana Signature Network (VSN). We’d like to provide additional information to help answer any questions you may have.  

Most notably, you will *not* be charged the fee to transfer your reservation to a third-party guest during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12–8 months prior to arrival).

The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Our intent is to ensure all Owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations at VSN villa resorts during this period.  

Once the fee has been applied to a specific reservation, any further name changes to that reservation will not incur an additional fee. Third-party guests include friends and family members not listed on the ownership deed or contract. 

*As a valued Four- or Five-Star Elite Member, you receive one complimentary third-party guest reservation transfer per each Elite-qualifying Vacation Ownership Interest annually.*

Please contact Elite Special Services at 888-786-3548 should you have any additional questions.

Sincerely, 




Suzanne Clark  
Vice President, Owner Services 
Vistana Signature Experiences


----------



## ciscogizmo1

Dawnwrey said:


> I received this email from VSE this morning:
> 
> Dear Elite Owner,
> 
> Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee for members of the Vistana Signature Network (VSN). We’d like to provide additional information to help answer any questions you may have.
> 
> Most notably, you will *not* be charged the fee to transfer your reservation to a third-party guest during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12–8 months prior to arrival).
> 
> The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Our intent is to ensure all Owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations at VSN villa resorts during this period.
> 
> Once the fee has been applied to a specific reservation, any further name changes to that reservation will not incur an additional fee. Third-party guests include friends and family members not listed on the ownership deed or contract.
> 
> *As a valued Four- or Five-Star Elite Member, you receive one complimentary third-party guest reservation transfer per each Elite-qualifying Vacation Ownership Interest annually.*
> 
> Please contact Elite Special Services at 888-786-3548 should you have any additional questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President, Owner Services
> Vistana Signature Experiences



Yay!  Gonna call today to get my refund...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## canesfan

I think it's a good resolution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xanadu

Dawnwrey said:


> I received this email from VSE this morning:
> 
> Most notably, you will *not* be charged the fee to transfer your reservation to a third-party guest during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12–8 months prior to arrival).
> 
> The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Our intent is to ensure all Owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations at VSN villa resorts during this period.



My question is what happens if you book 12 months out as a home resort reservation, but then finally rent that reservation at 7 months out?
The first paragraph above makes me believe that I'd have to pay the fee, while the second paragraph seems to contradict that. What gives?


----------



## pathways25

tsXanadu said:


> My question is what happens if you book 12 months out as a home resort reservation, but then finally rent that reservation at 7 months out?
> The first paragraph above makes me believe that I'd have to pay the fee, while the second paragraph seems to contradict that. What gives?



I had that same reaction.  I think they phrased that second paragraph poorly.  It should probably read "Most notably, you will not be charged the fee to transfer your reservation to a third-party guest *for reservations booked* during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12–8 months prior to arrival)."  The third paragraph makes clear that only SVN bookings are to be subject to the fee.

My question is what happens for home resort reservations that are split (like with a lockoff) within the SVN booking period.  When I've done that in the past, I was told that the rebooked split portion of the lockoff would continue to be treated as a home resort reservation (despite the reservation showing as a SVN reservation) and would keep also hold any fixed unit that it had before.


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## bizaro86

Interesting. I haven't received an email of any kind yet (not an elite owner!) but I wonder how it works for voluntary resale owners. I can only make a home resort reservation, but I can do so after 8 months as well. You'd think logically that still wouldn't have a fee, but I'm wary about applying logic to anything Vistana does...


----------



## osman

tsXanadu said:


> My question is what happens if you book 12 months out as a home resort reservation, but then finally rent that reservation at 7 months out?
> The first paragraph above makes me believe that I'd have to pay the fee, while the second paragraph seems to contradict that. What gives?



I was also confused when I read the new email. It's clear that a fee won't be charged if you transfer a home reservation 12-8 months prior to arrival. However, I would bet that almost all reservations are transferred 0-6 months before arrival. The wording is vague about whether a fee will be charged in this case. If VSE wants to be clear, this is what is should say:

"The fee only applies to a reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Reservations booked during the Home Resort Reservation Period and transferred to a third party during the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period will not be charged a fee."

Is that what VSE meant to say?


----------



## pathways25

osman said:


> I was also confused when I read the new email. It's clear that a fee won't be charged if you transfer a home reservation 12-8 months prior to arrival. However, I would bet that almost all reservations are transferred 0-6 months before arrival. The wording is vague about whether a fee will be charged in this case. If VSE wants to be clear, this is what is should say:
> 
> "The fee only applies to a reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Reservations booked during the Home Resort Reservation Period and transferred to a third party during the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period will not be charged a fee."
> 
> Is that what VSE meant to say?



You know, after reading that third paragraph several times, it is also imprecise in it's wording.  The phrase "third-party guest reservation" could mean a reservation created during the SVN booking period (< 8 months before arrival) or it could conceivably mean a reservation transferred to a guest during the SVN booking period.  The word "booked" seems like it should mean a reservation created in the SVN period, but it could also conceivably mean the act of transferring the reservation to a guest.  The intent sentence would suggest that "booked" means a reservation created during the SVN period since transferring reservations in the SVN period would do nothing to ensure that all owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations.

I'm sure several people at Vistana reviewed this email before it was sent out.  How could they end up with wording that is so vague and imprecise??


----------



## okwiater

The wording is a bit clumsy, but the 2nd paragraph makes pretty clear that the fee will only be charged on VSN reservations: "The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival."

In any case, I am very happy with this resolution. As stated from the beginning, the fee should have only applied to VSN reservations. And, making it harder (i.e. more expensive) to transfer to a third-party guest should also help cut down on prohibited rentals of VSN reservations. It would've been nice if the e-mail had started out "I apologize..." but one can't be too picky.


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## VacationForever

I am reading the underlying implication that VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservation by collecting guest fees.


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## DeniseM

More info. from an owner's phone conversation with Owner Services:  As applicable,  Vistana is going to automatically refund any confirmation fees that owners have _already paid_, and owners don't have to call and request it.


----------



## okwiater

bizaro86 said:


> Interesting. I haven't received an email of any kind yet (not an elite owner!) but I wonder how it works for voluntary resale owners. I can only make a home resort reservation, but I can do so after 8 months as well. You'd think logically that still wouldn't have a fee, but I'm wary about applying logic to anything Vistana does...



As stated in the first paragraph, the fee only applies to VSN members. It would not be permissible for them to charge a fee to a voluntary resale owner since you can't make a VSN reservation.


----------



## okwiater

VacationForever said:


> I am reading the underlying implication that VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservation by collecting guest fees.



What about the language that says rental of VSN reservations is strictly prohibited? Just because they collect a guest fee doesn't mean rentals are allowed. II also collects fees for guest certificates, and you're still not allowed to rent them.


----------



## Dawnwrey

Call me an optimist, but even with its poor wording I think they mean that you won't be charged if it is a HO reservation, but will be charged if it is a SO reservation.

(BTW, I don't know why my profile is identifying me as a guest. I am a TUG member! )


----------



## DeniseM

Same letter sent to non-Elite owners, except we don't get the one free confirmation:



> Dear Owner,
> 
> Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee for members of the Vistana Signature Network (VSN). We’d like to provide additional information to help answer any questions you may have.
> 
> Most notably, you will *not* be charged the fee to transfer your reservation to a third-party guest during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12–8 months prior to arrival).
> 
> The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival. Our intent is to ensure all Owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations at VSN villa resorts during this period.
> 
> Once the fee has been applied to a specific reservation, any further name changes to that reservation will not incur an additional fee. Third-party guests include friends and family members not listed on the ownership deed or contract.
> 
> Please contact Owner Services at 888-986-9637 should you have any additional questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President, Owner Services
> Vistana Signature Experiences


----------



## DeniseM

> (BTW, I don't know why my profile is identifying me as a guest. I am a TUG member! )



When you pay for your TUG membership, you are sent the member code to add to your profile, and that is what changes your status.  For all the details, click on the yellow BBS Help link at the top of the page, and scroll down to the last link.


----------



## DeniseM

Tuggers - I want to congratulate YOU on this roll-back, I am sure that it is due to your efforts!  

_*I get a chuckle out of the fact that they don't acknowledge that they made a mistake - they are just "providing additional information."_


----------



## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> Tuggers - I want to congratulate YOU on this roll-back, I am sure that it is due to your efforts!
> 
> _*I get a chuckle out of the fact that they don't acknowledge that they made a mistake - they are just "providing additional information."_



Yes. Nice job, everyone! Congrats.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

okwiater said:


> What about the language that says rental of VSN reservations is strictly prohibited? Just because they collect a guest fee doesn't mean rentals are allowed. II also collects fees for guest certificates, and you're still not allowed to rent them.



Not in the language, but in differentiating between charging guest fee for Home reservation and SO reservations.


----------



## okwiater

VacationForever said:


> Not in the language, but in differentiating between charging guest fee for Home reservation and SO reservations.



Maybe I'm not understanding. Where is the implication that Vistana is no longer prohibiting guest rentals of VSN reservations?


----------



## LisaH

I also received the letter and am OK with the modified fee rules. So glad tuggers work together to get this corrected!


----------



## duke

VacationForever said:


> I am reading the underlying implication that VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservation by collecting guest fees.



I think you are correct.  They have no way to determine if your 3rd party guest is a friend or a paid rental sale.  SO, this is really their way of collecting a fee for SO paid rental business.


----------



## psfcfa

Just got off the phone, having added  guest name to my home resort reservation at WKORV for 2/24.  No problem, no fee...


----------



## Dawnwrey

DeniseM said:


> When you pay for your TUG membership, you are sent the member code to add to your profile, and that is what changes your status.  For all the details, click on the yellow BBS Help link at the top of the page, and scroll down to the last link.


Thanks, Denise!


----------



## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> I am reading the underlying implication that VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservation by collecting guest fees.




Not correct - renting non-HomeResort SOs is prohibited as stated in CCRs (as previously discussed).


----------



## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> Not correct - renting non-HomeResort SOs is prohibited as stated in CCRs (as previously discussed).


I should have worded that they will unlikely enforce it.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Less than 5% of Owners rent out their villas - according to VSN.
Renting out non-HomeResort SOs is still prohibited.

This is a VSN fee for name changes for SO reservations (not HomeResort reservations) that is allowed according to VSN documents (not HOA docs) as I previously wrote.  I think people get confused because VSN handles both HR and SO reservations, but they are different.  This is why there are both HOA and VSN disclosure documents (CCRs - aka Owners Manual).


----------



## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> I should have worded that they will unlikely enforce it.



Proceed at your own risk - enforcement will remain (which ain't saying much - since it is weak and easily circumvented as some people here know and continue to do).  I have friends who have rented from people that reserved non-HomeResort SOs reservations at both WKORV and WKORVN (listed on RedWeek).  So... VSN is going to place a fee on all since they cannot easily differentiate between the two.


----------



## The Haileys

This is still messy as hell. I guess it will sort out when I go to reserve villas for our big family stay at SVV. We'll be getting at least 4 2 BR, and maybe 2 1 BR. Some in the HO period with our SVV and Flex, and then some with SO from rollover and the WKORV SOs. Unless they let me check in to 6 villas myself, and then I request room keys for all the adult children, I'd have to pay $59 for each villa that I don't occupy.


----------



## SMHarman

pathways25 said:


> You know, after reading that third paragraph several times, it is also imprecise in it's wording.  The phrase "third-party guest reservation" could mean a reservation created during the SVN booking period (< 8 months before arrival) or it could conceivably mean a reservation transferred to a guest during the SVN booking period.  The word "booked" seems like it should mean a reservation created in the SVN period, but it could also conceivably mean the act of transferring the reservation to a guest.  The intent sentence would suggest that "booked" means a reservation created during the SVN period since transferring reservations in the SVN period would do nothing to ensure that all owners have a fair opportunity to secure reservations.
> 
> I'm sure several people at Vistana reviewed this email before it was sent out.  How could they end up with wording that is so vague and imprecise??


Booked / reserved to my reading is when the confirmation number is generated. 

Beyond that it is a cancel or amend. The amend does not generate a new confirm no.


----------



## DeniseM

> Unless they let me check in to 6 villas myself, and then I request room keys for all the adult children, I'd have to pay $59 for each villa that I don't occupy.



You can absolutely check-in 6 villas yourself, and then add your guests names/credit cards to your reservation at the front desk, for no fee.


----------



## SMHarman

DeniseM said:


> Same letter sent to non-Elite owners, except we don't get the one free confirmation:


One free per ownership interest. Not one free.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Has anyone gotten a letter about deeded weeks at SBP?


----------



## elleny76

I still don't get it... if I need 3 rooms for me and my family using SO when do I need to book to avoid the fee? after 8 months or just at 8 months when they open for non owners?


----------



## Seagila

elleny76 said:


> I still don't get it... if I need 3 rooms for me and my family using SO when do I need to book to avoid the fee? after 8 months or just at 8 months when they open for non owners?



As long as you, the named owner/VSN member, are checking in your whole party at the beginning of your stay, you don't need to pay for a guest confirmation fee because you do not need it.  If a member of your party is arriving ahead of you and want to check themselves in, then you'd need a guest confirmation and pay the fee if it were a SO reservation.  Home Resort reservations will not require a guest confirmation fee.


----------



## Denise L

SMHarman said:


> One free per ownership interest. Not one free.


I got one for our SDO that isn't in VSN.  It says that the fee doesn't apply for that ownership.  Well, it actually says:  

Dear Owner, 

Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee. Please disregard that email as this fee only applies to members of the Vistana Signature Network.

We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Please contact Owner Services at 800-847-8262 should you have any additional questions.

Sincerely, 




Suzanne Clark 
Vice President, Owner Services 
Vistana Signature Experiences


----------



## SMHarman

Denise L said:


> I got one for our SDO that isn't in VSN.  It says that the fee doesn't apply for that ownership.  Well, it actually says:
> 
> Dear Owner,
> 
> Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee. Please disregard that email as this fee only applies to members of the Vistana Signature Network.
> 
> We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Please contact Owner Services at 800-847-8262 should you have any additional questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President, Owner Services
> Vistana Signature Experiences


But my point easy expanding on this. 

As a valued Four- or Five-Star Elite Member, you receive one complimentary third-party guest reservation transfer per each Elite-qualifying Vacation Ownership Interest annually.

That's per interest not per elite ownership.


----------



## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> Proceed at your own risk - enforcement will remain (which ain't saying much - since it is weak and easily circumvented as some people here know and continue to do).  I have friends who have rented from people that reserved non-HomeResort SOs reservations at both WKORV and WKORVN (listed on RedWeek).  So... VSN is going to place a fee on all since they cannot easily differentiate between the two.


I don't rent out or rent from owners, so it does not affect me.  But I can see VSN closing one eye to SO rentals as they get their cut through charging of guest fees.


----------



## dsmrp

DeniseM said:


> Same letter sent to non-Elite owners, except we don't get the one free confirmation:



I'm 3* and my letter didn't include a free confirmation per VOI either.
In another poster's msg their letter indicated it was for 4* and 5*.
Not a biggie to me 

I do agree with others that VSE will not enforce much the no renting of SO reservations rule.
Too costly for them to implement something in logic, and they don't gain hardly anything for it.

I guess VSE might continue the practice of not confirming the reservation when the guest on the reservation
calls for confirmation.  Maybe owner/rentees will be forced to have more 3 way conference calls 
Friends & family of owners should trust owners will make the name change,
and owners also can forward the email confirmations to friends & family.

Good email campaign everyone to stick up for your rights!


----------



## GrayFal

DeniseM said:


> Tuggers - I want to congratulate YOU on this roll-back, I am sure that it is due to your efforts!
> 
> _*I get a chuckle out of the fact that they don't acknowledge that they made a mistake - they are just "providing additional information."_


I agree.  It is definitely because of TUGers pointing out they COULD NOT Charge for home resort reservations as per our contract. 

BTW, I never got a response from Suzzane OR the email I sent thru the contact us system.  
Really Classy VSE!


----------



## mjm1

I just received an email stating the roll back. Glad to see they listened to the feedback they received. "Thanks" goes to all who provided feedback to them. Job well done.

Mike


----------



## mig1

Is it me.....or does anyone else think that Vistana didn't go far enough with their "updated" policy of updating their 3rd Party Reservations policy.  

I just spoke to a rep at Vistana as I was canceling and amending some existing reservations.  I asked her to clarify the new policy reflective of the email we all got in the last 24 hours.   

My question to her (and everyone else) is why am I *ever* charged a 3rd party fee for someone who shares my last name?   That seems absolutely insane.   The fact is that I should be able to secure a 3rd party reservation at ANY Vistana property for my wife, son or daughter without an additional charge.  

Personally I don't think that there should be a charge at all--it's still a way for Vistana to drive revenue from existing owners.  The only way around this is for me to be with anyone who might stay in the room (not always possible), or add their names to the property deed (which would cost money to have done).  

Does anyone else out there share my view or am I completely crazy?


----------



## VacationForever

mig1 said:


> Is it me.....or does anyone else think that Vistana didn't go far enough with their "updated" policy of updating their 3rd Party Reservations policy.
> 
> I just spoke to a rep at Vistana as I was canceling and amending some existing reservations.  I asked her to clarify the new policy reflective of the email we all got in the last 24 hours.
> 
> My question to her (and everyone else) is why am I *ever* charged a 3rd party fee for someone who shares my last name?   That seems absolutely insane.   The fact is that I should be able to secure a 3rd party reservation at ANY Vistana property for my wife, son or daughter without an additional charge.
> 
> Personally I don't think that there should be a charge at all--it's still a way for Vistana to drive revenue from existing owners.  The only way around this is for me to be with anyone who might stay in the room (not always possible), or add their names to the property deed (which would cost money to have done).
> 
> Does anyone else out there share my view or am I completely crazy?



I don't think they should charge, period.  I do disagree with your suggestion of having different treatment of someone with the same last name.  I can tell you that everyone in my family has a different last name.  I have never changed my last name when I married.


----------



## SMHarman

VacationForever said:


> I don't think they should charge, period.  I do disagree with your suggestion of having different treatment of someone with the same last name.  I can tell you that everyone in my family has a different last name.  I have never changed my last name when I married.


We have a deed where only expired ID has the name on the title. Riddle me that.  Check in on an expired passport?


----------



## DeniseM

SMHarman - I am guessing that they would say that if your legal name changes, it is your responsibility to change the name on the title.  As I recall, it's under your wife's maiden name - was that intentional?


----------



## Ken555

mig1 said:


> Is it me.....or does anyone else think that Vistana didn't go far enough with their "updated" policy of updating their 3rd Party Reservations policy.
> 
> I just spoke to a rep at Vistana as I was canceling and amending some existing reservations.  I asked her to clarify the new policy reflective of the email we all got in the last 24 hours.
> 
> My question to her (and everyone else) is why am I *ever* charged a 3rd party fee for someone who shares my last name?   That seems absolutely insane.   The fact is that I should be able to secure a 3rd party reservation at ANY Vistana property for my wife, son or daughter without an additional charge.
> 
> Personally I don't think that there should be a charge at all--it's still a way for Vistana to drive revenue from existing owners.  The only way around this is for me to be with anyone who might stay in the room (not always possible), or add their names to the property deed (which would cost money to have done).
> 
> Does anyone else out there share my view or am I completely crazy?



It's a pure money grab. Totally expected with II. Why is anyone really surprised?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SMHarman

DeniseM said:


> SMHarman - I am guessing that they would say that if your legal name changes, it is your responsibility to change the name on the title.  As I recall, it's under your wife's maiden name - was that intentional?


It was her name when we bought it. That's why it was in that name.


----------



## DeniseM

Yes, I understand that, but many times a couple will put both names on a deed, so was there any _objective_ in only putting her name on it?


----------



## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> Yes, I understand that, but many times a couple will put both names on a deed, so was there any _objective_ in only putting her name on it?


I actually have a great but worthless timeshare that is only in my name.  My husband wants me to put his name on it and I refused to because if I go before he does, I don't want to burden him with it... I know how to use it well, and I want it to die with me.


----------



## DeniseM

OK - but you know that alone does not prevent him from inheriting your timeshare as your heir, right?


----------



## cubigbird

So how does this work if I ADD a friend or family to a HomeResort reservation with less than 8 months prior to checkin?  I assume no fee because the ressie was made during the HomeResort booking period???  Guests that join us often don't make it work out until closer to the time.


----------



## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> OK - but you know that alone does not prevent him from inheriting your timeshare as your heir, right?



Yeah, I am hoping he will be sensible then and turn it in to the HOA.


----------



## DeniseM

Actually - all of your heirs need to legally refuse the inheritance with the court.


----------



## DeniseM

> So how does this work if I ADD a friend or family to a HomeResort reservation with less than 8 months prior to checkin? I assume no fee because the ressie was made during the HomeResort booking period??? Guests that join us often don't make it work out until closer to the time.



WHEN you request the Guest Confirmation has no bearing - the fee is based on whether it is a home resort or Staroption reservation:

Home Resort reservation - free
Staroption reservation - pay


----------



## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> Actually - all of your heirs need to legally refuse the inheritance with the court.


Ah, we won't have probate.  Everything is in our trust except for timeshares... dump and run! ;-)


----------



## DeniseM

The ownership does not evaporate with the death of the owner - the estate still owns it after their death.  But once the heirs refuse the inheritance, the executer of the estate can notify the management company that the inheritance has been refused and the estate is returning the deed to the resort.  You should educate your heirs about what they need to do - now, or better yet, give it away yourself when you no longer want it.


----------



## duke

Of course it is a pure money grab.  Hotels all over the world are facing a crisis as individuals are figuring out how to VRBO their apartments and homes.  SVO/VSE is smart (and proactive) and realizes that soon people will be purchasing mandatory SO's just for the purpose of VRBO their units and SVO/VSE is kinda stuck because they now let you make reservations by any number of days instead of a full week.  (spoiler alert - day by day reservations will probably go away and return back to full weeks)  They don't want to become the UBER of timeshares.


----------



## Helios

SMHarman said:


> One free per ownership interest. Not one free.


This is what I liked about the response...


----------



## dss

While I appreciate all of the community effort here. and am glad they rolled back the ownership period fee, but I still find the announced resolution does not go nearly far enough. All they did was comply with the legal requirement, the fact of which they ignored in the first place simply goes to show how ill conceived this program was in the first place. This is still a transparent cash-grab on the back of owners and concerns me for the tone it sets for future developments with Vistana. I did receive a reply from Vistana today and am letting them know my continued displeasure.


----------



## alohakevin

I agree with the concern regarding the tone this sets for the future. When asked in a survey whether I would recommend Vistana to a relative I expressed this sentiment regarding future uncertainty pertaining to the present business practice (fee). This generated a phone call from resolution services. I applaud Tug for the diligence applied to this unscrupulous ill conceived money grab. It's my opinion they would have proceeded as planned if not for the feedback supplied by Tug. This may (hopefully) give them pause when considering the next bogus fee.


----------



## tropical1

mig1 said:


> Is it me.....or does anyone else think that Vistana didn't go far enough with their "updated" policy of updating their 3rd Party Reservations policy.
> 
> I just spoke to a rep at Vistana as I was canceling and amending some existing reservations.  I asked her to clarify the new policy reflective of the email we all got in the last 24 hours.
> 
> My question to her (and everyone else) is why am I *ever* charged a 3rd party fee for someone who shares my last name?   That seems absolutely insane.   The fact is that I should be able to secure a 3rd party reservation at ANY Vistana property for my wife, son or daughter without an additional charge.
> 
> Personally I don't think that there should be a charge at all--it's still a way for Vistana to drive revenue from existing owners.  The only way around this is for me to be with anyone who might stay in the room (not always possible), or add their names to the property deed (which would cost money to have done).
> 
> Does anyone else out there share my view or am I completely crazy?


I agree that at least there shouldn't be a fee for immediate family members.  I am not happy that I have to pay for my daughter to use my reservations made with SO's.  I am also not happy that there was no advanced notice for such a change in policy.


----------



## SMHarman

DeniseM said:


> Yes, I understand that, but many times a couple will put both names on a deed, so was there any _objective_ in only putting her name on it?


Let's go to PM on that.


----------



## glord

TROPICAL1 said:


> I agree that at least there shouldn't be a fee for immediate family members.  I am not happy that I have to pay for my daughter to use my reservations made with SO's.  I am also not happy that there was no advanced notice for such a change in policy.


Completely agree.  Moreover,  I am interested in how they plan to deal with deeds held in a trust. Each trustee would be exempt.


----------



## bogey21

DeniseM said:


> .....or better yet, give it away yourself when you no longer want it.



I opted for this approach. Fortunately me ex-wife's name was not of the Deeds.  It would have complicated things. My kids, who otherwise would have inherited the Weeks agreed with me doing this and are happy.

George


----------



## cubigbird

So if this fee applies to weeks with VSN membership, what about our resale weeks that aren't enrolled in VSN / Voluntary weeks (like SVR)??  This fee will not apply at all even 8 months out and less??  If so, one more reason keep it out and not retro....


----------



## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> The ownership does not evaporate with the death of the owner - the estate still owns it after their death.  But once the heirs refuse the inheritance, the executer of the estate can notify the management company that the inheritance has been refused and the estate is returning the deed to the resort.  You should educate your heirs about what they need to do - now, or better yet, give it away yourself when you no longer want it.



Ah...  but I am talking about the unexpected... if things only happen as we plan in life.


----------



## DeniseM

> So if this fee applies to weeks with VSN membership, what about our resale weeks that aren't enrolled in VSN / Voluntary weeks (like SVR)?? This fee will not apply at all even 8 months out and less?? If so, one more reason keep it out and not retro....



That's discussed above - it's a home resort reservation - no fee.

The fee applies to Staroption reservations - since you can't make a Staroption reservation with a voluntary week, it doesn't apply.


----------



## cubigbird

Denise L said:


> I got one for our SDO that isn't in VSN.  It says that the fee doesn't apply for that ownership.  Well, it actually says:
> 
> Dear Owner,
> 
> Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee. Please disregard that email as this fee only applies to members of the Vistana Signature Network.
> 
> We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Please contact Owner Services at 800-847-8262 should you have any additional questions.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President, Owner Services
> Vistana Signature Experiences



I have an SVR voluntary week that's not enrolled in the VSN network.  I have not received this email.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> I have an SVR voluntary week that's not enrolled in the VSN network.  I have not received this email.


I haven't received an email yet either, we own mandatory resale.


----------



## jw0

dioxide45 said:


> I haven't received an email yet either, we own mandatory resale.


I also havent received a second email yet.  Since i own SBP, (where i couldnt find the language in the governing docs) I suspect they're trying to figure out a way to stick us with the original fee still.
I guess we'll see...


----------



## RLS50

We purchased resale at WLR, so since it is voluntary, we are not part of the VSN network.

At 6:38pm EST yesterday we received the email for non-network members listed in this thread.   Basically it no longer applies to us...

_"Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee. Please disregard that email as this fee only applies to members of the Vistana Signature Network."_

Thank you to the many members who wrote emails pointing to the language at multiple resorts that this fee was not allowed.


----------



## JudyS

A supervisor from Vistana called me Friday, as she said she would do. She was very clear that deeded (non-SVN) weeks will not have to pay this charge. The $59 charge applies only to StarOption reservations made outside the home reservation period.

As for the claim that Vistana will not go after people who are renting out StarOption reservations, I wouldn't be so sure. Remember, ILG owns Vistana now. Back when Disney traded in II, there appeared to be a whole II department dedicated to finding rentals of exchanges. I remember TUG members saying that II had called and asked them about the identity of everyone who had received a guest certificate to a DVC resort. I also remember a TUG member who had a week listed on Redweek for rent -- a week that he owned -- and also booked a II exchange (for his own use) for the same resort and dates. II found his listing on Redweek, and threatened to cancel his exchange if he couldn't prove he owned the week. There was also at least one TUG member who had his/her right to book II resorts online revoked. And II threatened that repeat offenders would have their accounts closed and all their deposits confiscated.

Plus, and I'm sure this will be an unpopular view, renting out SO exchanges just isn't fair. People who own at Harborside, WSJ, and the Hawaii Westins are paying a fortunate in MFs. If they choose to rent their weeks - which is their right -- they shouldn't have to compete with VSN owners from cheaper resorts who can charge lower prices. And, when VSN owners try to book VSN exchanges into Harborside, WSJ, or Hawaii, the rooms they want shouldn't be full of renters.

I really don't get why people say its OK to rent out VSN exchanges. Pretty much everyone on TUG says its wrong to rent out II or RCI exchanges. Why should VSN exchanges be any different?


----------



## LisaRex

JudyS said:


> Plus, and I'm sure this will be an unpopular view, renting out SO exchanges just isn't fair. People who own at Harborside, WSJ, and the Hawaii Westins are paying a fortunate in MFs. If they choose to rent their weeks - which is their right -- they shouldn't have to compete with VSN owners from cheaper resorts who can charge lower prices. And, when VSN owners try to book VSN exchanges into Harborside, WSJ, or Hawaii, the rooms they want shouldn't be full of renters.



FWIW, I agree with you. I used to own at WKORV-N and was very upset when I advertised on Redweek, only to be undercut by folks who were advertising the same place for less than the cost of MFs.  It was clear that they'd scored an exchange by using a lower priced SVN resort via II, and were gaming the system to their advantage. It was completely unfair to the owners who paid a lot more $$ to own at that resort, plus signficantly more in MFs to maintain that resort. Simply put:  If you want to get into the rental game, buy at the resort you want to rent out and pay the associated MFs. Otherwise, don't expect any sympathy.


----------



## Helios

Ken555 said:


> It's a pure money grab. Totally expected with II. Why is anyone really surprised?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I've wondering that myself...


----------



## VacationForever

I received the first email about the fee but not the 2nd email with the clarification/correction...


----------



## purefct1

DeniseM said:


> That's discussed above - it's a home resort reservation - no fee.
> 
> The fee applies to Staroption reservations - since you can't make a Staroption reservation with a voluntary week, it doesn't apply.



So it sounds like my post here and my questions/conclusions are correct:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...ork-and-vistana-signature-experiences.251209/
- The thread was locked without answering my questions, so I'll ask here. What is the difference between Vistana Signature Network and Vistana Signature Experiences? Is it merely the difference between making a reservation at your home resort vs a reservation at a resort which is not a home resort?

This means if we make a reservation:

in our name at any location, there is no fee (I know this is correct, the reservation would be VSE or VSN depending on where we own and where we reserved?)
in anyone else's name at any location we own at, there is no fee (I think this is correct, would this be a VSE reservation?)
in anyone else's name at any location we DON'T own at, there IS a fee (I think this is correct, would this be a VSN reservation?)
I also want to make certain I understand the comment about Voluntary "weeks"
- Wouldn't the correct term be weeks ownership vs points membership, and wouldn't the correct term be Voluntary Resort and not Voluntary weeks? By definition a direct purchase owner at a Voluntary resort has use of Staroptions and can thus make a Staroption reservation - it's the resale purchaser/owner of the Voluntary resort ownership who has use of the week rather than Staroptions.


----------



## DeniseM

I answered your question in the other thread, before I closed it.

You are getting bogged down in the terminology, which does not impact this issue - it's really this simple:

Home Resort Reservation - No Fee
Staroption Reservation - Fee


----------



## purefct1

And I don't see how we've won anything against Vistana. As I understand it, both the original notice and the clarification notice state that there will be a reservation fee for VSN reservations for non owner guests. The wording of the initial notice to VSE owners was confusing to be certain, but it is specific that the 3rd party fee applies to VSN even though I can't see where or how Vistana clarifies the difference.


----------



## dioxide45

purefct1 said:


> What is the difference between Vistana Signature Network and Vistana Signature Experiences? Is it merely the difference between making a reservation at your home resort vs a reservation at a resort which is not a home resort?


Vistana Signature Experiences is the name of the company. Vistana Signature Network is the club that you belong to in order to allow you to make StarOption reservations. For purposes here, SVN is applicable, SVE is not.



purefct1 said:


> in anyone else's name at any location we DON'T own at, there IS a fee (I think this is correct, would this be a VSN reservation?)


If you make a reservation inside of 8 months at a location you do own at, the fee will apply.


----------



## DeniseM

> And I don't see how we've won anything against Vistana.



Under the revised rules:

-There is no fee for a home resort reservation Guest Confirmation
-4 & 5 Star Elite Owners get one free guest confirmation for each ownership

So the fee hasn't been eliminated, but it has been limited.


----------



## DeniseM

> If you make a reservation inside of 8 months at a location you do own at, the fee will apply.



Yes and No:

Yes - if it's a Staroption reservation.

No - if it's a home resort reservation on a voluntary deed.  For instance:  I own a deed at SDO with no Staroptions - no guest confirmation fee regardless of when I make the reservation.


> From the letter to voluntary owners:  Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee. Please disregard that email as this *fee only applies to members of the Vistana Signature Network*.



*It's really this simple:  The fee only applies to Staroption reservations.*


----------



## tschwa2

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana Signature Experiences is the name of the company. Vistana Signature Network is the club that you belong to in order to allow you to make StarOption reservations. For purposes here, SVN is applicable, SVE is not.
> 
> 
> If you make a reservation inside of 8 months at a location you do own at, the fee will apply.


To further elaborate:
VSE is the management company and the developer-which is still in active sales.  VSN is the exchange network that retail purchase owners and mandatory resort owners use to exchange using StarOptions.  VSE resorts and owners may or may not belong to VSE depending on how you bought and what you own.  All of my purchases were resale but I own both Sheraton broadway Plantation which is voluntary and Harborside which is mandatory.

If you belong to VSN than at 8 months or less your usage converts to SO's so even if you book at your home resort you are using StarOptions.  If you do not belong to VSN (all the good reservation may be taken but...) you can still book your home resort and since you are not making a SO reservation the fee should not apply.


----------



## purefct1

I think tschwa2 meant to say VSE resorts and owners may or may not belong to VSN ... thanks tschwa2 and dioxide45 for explaining VSE vs VSN 

I think one reason I was confused is because we have separate VSE accounts which use the same email address. My ownership is VSE which is not in VSN while my girlfriend's is VSE participating in VSN. So today for example I received a notice to disregard the fee because I'm not in VSN, after receiving a notice to my girlfriend clarifying the VSN fee - and the emails say Dear Owner so I didn't catch on that the two emails were sent to us separately.

And thank you for clarifying that all reservations made 8 months or less will have the fee for guests. I missed that in the notices


----------



## DeniseM

> And thank you for clarifying that *all reservations* made 8 months or less will have the fee for guests. I missed that in the notices



Not correct - please see post #367 above - only Staroption reservations will be charged the fee.


----------



## SMHarman

Bought from Stanwood / Vistana.

Home resort booked 12-8 months.  No fee for name change ever.  Even if name change at 2 months. 

Booked <8 months. Fee for name.  Once. Can change the name again as part of original fee

Other resort SVN network booking < 8 months. Fee to pay. 

Bought Resale. 

Mandatory unit. (Kierland/ WKORV / N, Key West, Bella, Hillside WSJ)

See above, same as buying from developer.

Bought resale elsewhere. 

No fee ever. 

Bought resale elsewhere and retro. 

Same as bought from developer. 

4-5* owner

One free per ownership unit. So if 4 units to get you to 5* the 4 free names. No clarity if they are tied to unit or a simple count through the year. Eg if you lock off WKV and rent both sides is that one free and one paid or are they 2/4 free?

Think that covers the use cases


----------



## VacationForever

JudyS said:


> I really don't get why people say its OK to rent out VSN exchanges. Pretty much everyone on TUG says its wrong to rent out II or RCI exchanges. Why should VSN exchanges be any different?


I do not believe anyone has said it is OK to rent SO bookings.  I am questioning whether VSE will enforce it.  I have yet to hear about someone getting caught.


----------



## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> I do not believe anyone has said it is OK to rent SO bookings.  I am questioning whether VSE will enforce it.  I have yet to hear about someone getting caught.



Correct, you or no one else has stated that this means renting non-HomeResort StarOptions is okay - this was only conjecture. Renting these SO types is still prohibited (admittedly hard to enforce) - and IMO - now the associated name change fee is paid by all (if it falls under type that gets the fee - as stated by @DeniseM)

I asked this question (renting SO) - and VSN stance on this has not changed - yet also not considered a major issue in that (stated by them) <5% are rented - not sure if they meant this, or meant <5% have name changes associated with VSN SO reservation. I think the later since it was in context to response to my email about the new fee.

I agree that it hurts Home Ownership if non-HomeResort SO are allowed to be rented - and also hurts them as it may limit their ability to potentially pick up units and rent (or allow for exchange).  IMO


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Yes and No:
> 
> Yes - if it's a Staroption reservation.
> 
> No - if it's a home resort reservation on a voluntary deed.  For instance:  I own a deed at SDO with no Staroptions - no guest confirmation fee regardless of when I make the reservation.
> 
> 
> *It's really this simple:  The fee only applies to Staroption reservations.*



How much simpler can it be?

I think people are confused by VSN's role in reservations for VSE, and what is considered a SO reservation?  Perhaps in part due to the SO balance decreasing when a HomeResort reservation is made, and VSN Role in reservations for non-VSN Voluntary resorts (including resale).

VSN manages all reservation types for VSE (HomeResort, SO, FO, non-VSN Voluntary, all resales...)


----------



## okwiater

VacationForever said:


> I am reading the underlying implication that VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservation





VacationForever said:


> I do not believe anyone has said it is OK to rent SO bookings.  I am questioning whether VSE will enforce it.  I have yet to hear about someone getting caught.





DavidnRobin said:


> Correct, you or no one else has stated that this means renting non-HomeResort StarOptions is okay - this was only conjecture.



The confusion started with VacationForever's wording in the original post above. Prohibition and enforcement are quite different... and the original post said "VSN is not prohibiting rental to 3rd party guests for SOs reservations."


----------



## rickandcindy23

I got an email for my SBP, which is great.  No guest fees.  Yes! 

I just know Vistana will take money from us in other ways, like an increase in fees next year.  But they cannot charge me more than others because I don't use all of my weeks myself.  I know many do use their weeks themselves and never rent, but I rent quite a few of them.


----------



## SMHarman

rickandcindy23 said:


> I got an email for my SBP, which is great.  No guest fees.  Yes!
> 
> I just know Vistana will take money from us in other ways, like an increase in fees next year.  But they cannot charge me more than others because I don't use all of my weeks myself.  I know many do use their weeks themselves and never rent, but I rent quite a few of them.


It's the SBP board that will take more in your example though that said they also have a fiduciary duty to take the ' right amount' for annual running costs and a reserve fund amount for repair / improvement.


----------



## purefct1

DeniseM said:


> Not correct - please see post #367 above - only Staroption reservations will be charged the fee.



Sigh, Denise - why are you working so hard to made my questions and statements sound incorrect when you yourself are replying incorrectly? It is not Staroptions which trigger the fee / no fee. It is a reservation made via VSN 8 months or less which has this fee and That is all I've been trying to understand. OK, sure, only Staroptions are used to make VSN reservations. But when you tell me not to worry about the difference between VSE and VSN and then you make a big deal about Staroptions, I feel like you are going out of your way to diminish the importance of understanding how the owner and reservation system works.

Do I understand the following correctly:

Ownership at Vistana properties at Mandatory and Voluntary resorts are via VSE
Direct purchasers participate in VSN regardless of whether the resorts are Mandatory or Voluntary (at a minimum for more recent purchasers)
Resale purchasers participate in VSN if the resorts are Mandatory, or if Voluntary then after the purchaser makes some type of direct purchase/conversion
All VSN reservations made 8 months or less where a guest is added will incur a guest fee, excepting certain times for certain elites
All VSN reservations are reserved in terms of Staroptions, even during home period (for example you can make a 9 night reservation even though you aren't allowed to make a 5 night reservation - or has this changed?)
All VSE reservations not in VSN are reserved in terms of weeks ... and since this entire topic is about VSN then non VSN reservations with guests added have not been notified about any fee ... yet (or did I just open a hornet's nest on this comment).


----------



## VacationForever

purefct1 said:


> Sigh, Denise - why are you working so hard to made my questions and statements sound incorrect when you yourself are replying incorrectly? It is not Staroptions which trigger the fee / no fee. It is a reservation made via VSN 8 months or less which has this fee and That is all I've been trying to understand. OK, sure, only Staroptions are used to make VSN reservations. But when you tell me not to worry about the difference between VSE and VSN and then you make a big deal about Staroptions, I feel like you are going out of your way to diminish the importance of understanding how the owner and reservation system works.
> 
> Do I understand the following correctly:
> 
> Ownership at Vistana properties at Mandatory and Voluntary resorts are via VSE
> Direct purchasers participate in VSN regardless of whether the resorts are Mandatory or Voluntary (at a minimum for more recent purchasers)
> Resale purchasers participate in VSN if the resorts are Mandatory, or if Voluntary then after the purchaser makes some type of direct purchase/conversion
> All VSN reservations made 8 months or less where a guest is added will incur a guest fee, excepting certain times for certain elites
> All VSN reservations are reserved in terms of Staroptions, even during home period (for example you can make a 9 night reservation even though you aren't allowed to make a 5 night reservation - or has this changed?)
> All VSE reservations not in VSN are reserved in terms of weeks ... and since this entire topic is about VSN then non VSN reservations with guests added have not been notified about any fee ... yet (or did I just open a hornet's nest on this comment).



All correct except the part about reservation at 8 months.  You can still make a home resort reservation, i.e. within your deeded season as long as there is availbility between 1 day to 12 months, those reservations are not subject to guest fees.  Hence Denise pointed out that only SO reservations are subject to guest fees.  You can still make a home resort reservation at 8 months or fewer, subject to availability.


----------



## DeniseM

purefct1 - Your questions have been asked and answered in this thread.  I invite you to go back and read carefully.  I will not bother you with any further explanations.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> All correct except the part about reservation at 8 months.  You can still make a home resort reservation, i.e. within your deeded season as long as there is availbility between 1 day to 12 months, those reservations are not subject to guest fees.  Hence Denise pointed out that only SO reservations are subject to guest fees.  You can still make a home resort reservation at 8 months or fewer, subject to availability.


I don't think this is specifically called out. While technically you could be making a home resort reservation at < 8 months, you may not actually be doing that. In the past Vistana hasn't enforced the rental rule of not being able to rent StarOption reservations made at your home resort and season at < 8 months, but in reality at 8 months all inventory is supposed to be dumped in to StarOption exchange. I don't know where it is clarified that the fee doesn't apply for reservations made < 8 months at your home resort in your owned season. Are you really making a home resort reservation or pulling inventory from what is essentially the VSN exchange company?


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think this is specifically called out. While technically you could be making a home resort reservation at < 8 months, you may not actually be doing that. In the past Vistana hasn't enforced the rental rule of not being able to rent StarOption reservations made at your home resort and season at < 8 months, but in reality at 8 months all inventory is supposed to be dumped in to StarOption exchange. I don't know where it is clarified that the fee doesn't apply for reservations made < 8 months at your home resort in your owned season. Are you really making a home resort reservation or pulling inventory from what is essentially the VSN exchange company?


Good point.  I guess I am mixing the 2 up, where a timeshare is part of VSN vs. outside of VSN.  Outside of VSN, you can book your timeshare all the way up until the same day as check in.  I don't know about whether VSN bookings under 8 months automatically become SOs reservations, you may be right...  I hate to think that I have given up my reservation "rights" to my own timeshare at 8 months.


----------



## DeniseM

> I don't know about whether VSN bookings under 8 months automatically become SOs reservations, you may be right... I hate to think that I have given up my reservation "rights" to my own timeshare at 8 months.



*Without a doubt*, *ALL* VSN reservations made 0-8 months before check-in are *Staroption reservations*, regardless of whether you make it at your home resort or another resort. The number of Staroptions used will even be listed on your confirmation.

When you make a Staroption reservation at your home resort, *you have no rights of ownership* - you are just like any other owner making a Staroption reservation.  

However, if you own a voluntary deed with no Staroptions, all reservations are home resort reservations, because obviously, you cannot make a Staroption reservation.


----------



## Helios

So, from the VSE standpoint, an eight months or less reservation made made at your home resort, during your season, matching the unit size you own, and using SOs from your matching unit is a SO reservation.  I see that.  However, is renting that reservation in violation of the rules and can get you in trouble.

I would think VSE should understand that life gets on the way and sometimes plans made between 1 year and 8 months + 1 day change....


----------



## DeniseM

> So, from the VSE standpoint, an eight months or less reservation made made at your home resort, during your season, matching the unit size you own, and using SOs from your matching unit is a SO reservation. I see that. However, is renting that reservation in violation of the rules and can get you in trouble.



Here is how the rule is stated on the reservations - emphasis, mine:  





> Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (*other than a vacation period at your Home Resort*) is prohibited.


----------



## Helios

DeniseM said:


> Here is how the rule is stated on the reservations - emphasis, mine:


Thanks for clarifying, it sounds like my example is permissible then.  Those resies should be flagged accordingly to avoid confusion.


----------



## DeniseM

> Those resies should be flagged accordingly to avoid confusion.



That would require software that isn't cobbled together, and phone Reps. who are well trained - VSE doesn't have either right now...


----------



## okwiater

DeniseM said:


> That would require software that isn't cobbled together, and phone Reps. who are well trained - VSE doesn't have either right now...



I don't think their software is cobbled together. I think it works remarkably well considering the limited size of the network and the inconsistency between different ownership types and restrictions.

I agree with you on the latter half of your comment, though. The phone rep training is... inconsistent -- at best.


----------



## Helios

DeniseM said:


> That would require software that isn't cobbled together, and phone Reps. who are well trained - VSE doesn't have either right now...


Of course, they should still do it...


----------



## DavidnRobin

Helios said:


> Thanks for clarifying, it sounds like my example is permissible then.  Those resies should be flagged accordingly to avoid confusion.



They do differentiate between a HomeResort vs. SO reservation


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> They do differentiate between a HomeResort vs. SO reservation


When the resie is made after the 8 month mark?  How?


----------



## DavidnRobin

Helios said:


> When the resie is made after the 8 month mark?  How?



Perhaps I am not following - I am saying that the reservations show whether it is a HomeResort or SO Reservation.
It states it on 'Upcoming Villa Stays' for 'Reservation Type' on the VSE dashboard as 'Home Resort Reservation' or 'VSN Reservation'

One the 8-month mark is hit (for most VSE types - the majority used here...) - it is a 'VSN Reservation' even if at Home Resort.
I have an example - I used my WPORV studio for a WPORV 1Bd (6 days) that I made at the 8 month mark - it says VSN Reservation (where my 1Bd states Home Resort Reservation).

Is this the same for other ownership types (e.g. non-VSN Voluntary) - no idea.  Likely depends on rules.
Is this what you were referring to?


----------



## SMHarman

DavidnRobin said:


> Perhaps I am not following - I am saying that the reservations show whether it is a HomeResort or SO Reservation.
> It states it on 'Upcoming Villa Stays' for 'Reservation Type' on the VSE dashboard as 'Home Resort Reservation' or 'VSN Reservation'
> 
> One the 8-month mark is hit (for most VSE types - the majority used here...) - it is a 'VSN Reservation' even if at Home Resort.
> I have an example - I used my WPORV studio for a WPORV 1Bd (6 days) that I made at the 8 month mark - it says VSN Reservation (where my 1Bd states Home Resort Reservation).
> 
> Is this the same for other ownership types (e.g. non-VSN Voluntary) - no idea.  Likely depends on rules.
> Is this what you were referring to?


Well a 6 day reservation is by default SVN, as home reservations have their own rules on days (7) and check in days F, Su, Sa).


----------



## DeniseM

I believe Helios is asking how you can tell if a _Staroption reservation_ was made at an owner's home resort.

You cannot tell by looking at the confirmation, but a skilled Rep. can look it up in the system to see which deed the Staroptions came from.  (And of course, when the owner originally makes the Staroption reservations the owner can choose which deed to use.)  

Unless, of course, the Staroptions have been banked with other deeds.  In that case, they are lumped together into one pool.


----------



## DavidnRobin

SMHarman said:


> Well a 6 day reservation is by default SVN, as home reservations have their own rules on days (7) and check in days F, Su, Sa).



True - however - at <8 months it is going to state VSN Reservation regardless because that is exactly what it is.  At <8 months it is a VSN Reservation whether it is 7 days or not - this is part of the 4 pillars of VSE Ownership.  If this were done with WKORV/N - villa location guaranteed is lost and one is competing with all other in VSN.  With WPORV only competing with VSN as villas are all IV.  

I can only speak to WKORV/N, WPORV and WKV (not WSJ as it is fixed) - and assume other types of ownership within VSN.  Not sure how reservations for VOI ownerships not within VSN (SDO, SVR, SBP, etc) - or FlexOptions are classified.


----------



## dsmrp

okwiater said:


> I don't think their software is cobbled together. I think it works remarkably well considering the limited size of the network and the inconsistency between different ownership types and restrictions.
> 
> I agree with you on the latter half of your comment, though. The phone rep training is... inconsistent -- at best.



I agree on the reservation software working pretty well.  I've worked in IT supporting and testing several schedule driven, time based info systems, and VSE has a lot of what we call 'edge' or 'corner' use cases to account for in the reservation logic. It's crazy sounding to me with the different seasons at various resorts, Home options vs star options for some phases at WSJ, and the whole flex options as home options for 5 resorts.

 I agree the CS training should be more consistent and VSE should spend more time on it.  
But I bet a good # of their CS reps are working remotely which may contribute to the inconsistencies in learning or knowing the current rules.  Everyone plz give the CS reps a break. Their knowledge is sometimes only as good as the training they get, and learning from experience on call cases.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> I believe Helios is asking how you can tell if a _Staroption reservation_ was made at an owner's home resort.
> 
> You cannot tell by looking at the confirmation, but a skilled Rep. can look it up in the system to see which deed the Staroptions came from.  (And of course, when the owner originally makes the Staroption reservations the owner can choose which deed to use.)
> 
> Unless, of course, the Staroptions have been banked with other deeds.  In that case, they are lumped together into one pool.



Correct - you cannot tell by looking at the reservation, but not sure why it matters - it is still a VSN reservation.
I have 3 friends that rented VSN Reservations at WKORV/N - One was a WKORVN Owner that reserved at <8 months for them using their WKORVN SOs - it stated VSN reservation (not Home Resort). The other 2 were non-WKORV/N Owners.


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> Perhaps I am not following - I am saying that the reservations show whether it is a HomeResort or SO Reservation.
> It states it on 'Upcoming Villa Stays' for 'Reservation Type' on the VSE dashboard as 'Home Resort Reservation' or 'VSN Reservation'
> 
> One the 8-month mark is hit (for most VSE types - the majority used here...) - it is a 'VSN Reservation' even if at Home Resort.
> I have an example - I used my WPORV studio for a WPORV 1Bd (6 days) that I made at the 8 month mark - it says VSN Reservation (where my 1Bd states Home Resort Reservation).
> 
> Is this the same for other ownership types (e.g. non-VSN Voluntary) - no idea.  Likely depends on rules.
> Is this what you were referring to?


I was referencing reservations past 8 months.  

Just looked in my dashboard.  I see the following types: "Home Resort Reservation" or "Vistana Signature Network Reservation".  The first one is obvious/easy to understand.  The second tag is the resie type for two different resies I have.  One made with banked SOs and one made with intact/100% SOs from a Home Resort/Unit/Week, etc. Obviously, if the exact latter resie had been done before 8 months it would have been tagged "Home Resort Reservation".  

So I questioned how I can differentiate the banked SO resie from the "intact SOs from a Home Resort/Unit/Week, etc." resie by simply looking at the dashboard which provides the same tag.  Of course, I know where the SOs originated, but could someone else tell by simply looking at the resie print out? I don't think so.  

BTW - this resie was made with 100% SOs from a Voluntary unit that was bought from Starwood (via trade ins).


----------



## DavidnRobin

dsmrp said:


> I agree on the reservation software working pretty well.  I've worked in IT supporting and testing several schedule driven, time based info systems, and VSE has a lot of what we call 'edge' or 'corner' use cases to account for in the reservation logic. It's crazy sounding to me with the different seasons at various resorts, Home options vs star options for some phases at WSJ, and the whole flex options as home options for 5 resorts.
> 
> I agree the CS training should be more consistent and VSE should spend more time on it.
> But I bet a good # of their CS reps are working remotely which may contribute to the inconsistencies in learning or knowing the current rules.  Everyone plz give the CS reps a break. Their knowledge is sometimes only as good as the training they get, and learning from experience on call cases.



Not an IT person - but I would bet that the next iteration (version) of the on-line reservation system will have the ability to put in a name change for HomeResort reservations (hopefully with name, address, phone, and email fields) - too easy not to do - and reduces resources for Owner Services since no fee is charged anyway.

Any takers?


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> Correct - you cannot tell by looking at the reservation, but not sure why it matters - it is still a VSN reservation


It only matters in the original context, can it be rented per the rules?  If you make it before 8 months the answer is clearly yes.  If you make it past eight months is the question.  Denise's 3:43 post indicates yes.  Even if the tag is VSN Reservation.


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> Not an IT person - but I would bet that the next iteration (version) of the on-line reservation system will have the ability to put in a name change for HomeResort reservations (hopefully with name, address, phone, and email fields) - too easy not to do - and reduces resources for Owner Services since no fee is charged anyway.
> 
> Any takers?


I certainly hope so...


----------



## DavidnRobin

Helios said:


> I was referencing reservations past 8 months.



past 8 months = <8 months - right?  I knew what you meant, but terminology is important as not to add to confusion.

Banked SO and HO used at < 8 months are VSN Reservations - can't speak to non-VSN VOIs.
As DeniseM stated - you would have to call in - still unclear why this is important other than interesting.


----------



## DeniseM

Pure speculation here, but I don't think Vistana is going to return to asking for guests' contact info., because I think they are intentionally distancing themselves from renters.  (Plausible deniability.)

BTW - Marriott doesn't ask for the guest's contact info. either.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Helios said:


> It only matters in the original context, can it be rented per the rules?  If you make it before 8 months the answer is clearly yes.  If you make it past eight months is the question.  Denise's 3:43 post indicates yes.  Even if the tag is VSN Reservation.



This has been discussed - it is far from clear from the CCRs I have seen. (the actual text has been copied here before).
People tend to believe what is useful to them to believe. Overall, it would be hard to enforce by VSN, and unlikely what they are concerned about. They can view it for what type it is. Will they?  Doubt it. But, proceed at your own risk.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Pure speculation here, but I don't think Vistana is going to return to asking for guests' contact info., because I think they are intentionally distancing themselves from renters.  (Plausible deniability.)
> 
> BTW - Marriott doesn't ask for the guest's contact info. either.



Thus... the word 'hopefully'.  Why? Because if there was a need to contact them regarding resort issues (e.g. hurricane) - it would be wise not have to rely on Owner to relay that important info.  I already relay to Renters resort updates, but I pay attention (and not renting as a side business).


----------



## DeniseM

Again - I'm just speculating.  It has always been Vistana's/Starwood's policy to contact guests through the owner, and I know of no situation in which they have contacted a guest directly, so I wouldn't expect that to change.


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> past 8 months = <8 months - right?


Correct.


----------



## Helios

DeniseM said:


> because I think they are intentionally distancing themselves from renters.  (Plausible deniability.)



I agree with this,why enforce their own rule...


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> People tend to believe what is useful to them to believe. Overall, it would be hard to enforce by VSN, and unlikely what they are concerned about. They can view it for what type it is. Will they?  Doubt it. But, proceed at your own risk.



I think it could get very hard to enforce for them and get away with it. You would be reserving *exactly what you own*, granted that it would be reserved at less than 8 months, but it would still be exactly what you own.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Helios said:


> I think it could get very hard to enforce for them and get away with it. You would be reserving *exactly what you own*, granted that it would be reserved at less than 8 months, but it would still be exactly what you own.



You are not reserving 'exactly what you own' - VSN reservations (for VOIs that are within VSN) lose guaranteed villa location (and season if applicable) - they are not the same as Home Resort reservations.  (see 4 pillars of VSE)


----------



## dioxide45

DeniseM said:


> Again - I'm just speculating.  It has always been Vistana's/Starwood's policy to contact guests through the owner, and I know of no situation in which they have contacted a guest directly, so I wouldn't expect that to change.


Marriott does the same. Even when you buy a getaway and attach a guest certificate to it, they still send the pre-arrival email to the owner that made the reservation.


----------



## DeniseM

> You are not reserving 'exactly what you own' - VSN reservations (for VOIs that are within VSN) lose guaranteed villa location (and season if applicable) - they are not the same as Home Resort reservations. (see 4 pillars of VSE)



What if you own Ocean Front, and you reserve Ocean Front with Staroptions?

What if you own at a resort with no deeded views and you reserve the type of unit/season that you own with Staroptions?


----------



## Helios

DavidnRobin said:


> You are not reserving 'exactly what you own' - VSN reservations (for VOIs that are within VSN) lose guaranteed villa location (and season if applicable) - they are not the same as Home Resort reservations.  (see 4 pillars of VSE)


I'll disagree here.  If I own a deed for a HAR 2BRLO in Plat+ VOI, I feel I have the right as a deeded owner to reserve exactly that (and rent it if I choose to) no matter when I make the reservation.  I see your point about the 4 pillars, but I still disagree.  I guess like you said (paraphrasing) I am seeing this matter the way it works for me.


----------



## dss

FYI - I would love to be wrong but I absolutely think they are going to charge a "reduced" online fee for this once the functionality is lit up.


----------



## Helios

DeniseM said:


> What if you own Ocean Front, and you reserve Ocean Front with Staroptions?
> 
> What if you own at a resort with no deeded views and you reserve the type of unit/season that you own with Staroptions?


I would say it depends on the first paragraph case.  If you use your OF unit to reserve an OF of the same size in the same season at 8 months or closer to check in, the resie should be treated as a Home Resort.

Second paragraph I am with you 100%.  At some resorts there may be a phase issue that could come into play (like SVR) but that is beyond the scope of my argument.


----------



## okwiater

Helios said:


> I'll disagree here.  If I own a deed for a HAR 2BRLO in Plat+ VOI, I feel I have the right as a deeded owner to reserve exactly that (and rent it if I choose to) no matter when I make the reservation.  I see your point about the 4 pillars, but I still disagree.  I guess like you said (paraphrasing) I am seeing this matter the way it works for me.



"As a deeded owner" only applies until 8 months. As a member of VSN, you agreed to have your unit automatically deposited into the network. At that point, you can only reserve with StarOptions.


----------



## Helios

okwiater said:


> "As a deeded owner" only applies until 8 months. As a member of VSN, you agreed to have your unit automatically deposited into the network. At that point, you can only reserve with StarOptions.


OK, not familiar with all the ins and outs of the agreement.  If ^ this is correct, the renting my example is not allowed...


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> What if you own Ocean Front, and you reserve Ocean Front with Staroptions?
> 
> What if you own at a resort with no deeded views and you reserve the type of unit/season that you own with Staroptions?



Sorry - is this to me? Losing track... 

My read of the SVN disclosures as part of the WKORV/N disclosures (aka Owners Manual) - as copied a while ago (I have not seen VSE/VSN update). Same wording in my WKV and WPORV docs.

To put simply - if reservation is within 8-12 months - it is a Home Resort reservation.
The various other types are not HR reservations.  This is aligned with conversation with SC (SVP) offices from years ago when the SO rental issue were brought up.

As always - there are going to be situations handled by Resolution Services (e.g. Illness) that retain HR status.

I guess I should follow with IMO - but the CCRs clearly defines the HR period.
This is for WKORV/N, WPORV, and WKV.  YMMV with others. 

Now... to enforcement?  That is another matter.  The <5% comment was telling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JudyS

I made the following remark, which I want to clarify:


JudyS said:


> I really don't get why people say its OK to rent out VSN exchanges. Pretty much everyone on TUG says its wrong to rent out II or RCI exchanges. Why should VSN exchanges be any different?



What I meant was, some people on TUG seem to think it is *morally* OK to rent out StarOption reservations. I *have* heard people express this view on TUG in the past. I, on the other hand, think it is unethical to rent out SO reservations.

The VSN T&C are clear that rental of SO reservations is prohibited. I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

And I know Starwood didn't enforce the rule against renting SO reservations. But, now the owner is VSE (which is a subsidiary of Interval Leisure Group), not Starwood. Given Interval's strict enforcement of no-rental rules in the past, I would not be surprised at all if VSE started enforcing the rule.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Not sure if 'morally' is the correct term - however, from what I observe is that people's view on this is based on their vested interest since some are renting TSs as a side business. They just do not discuss it anymore (to stay under the radar, and due to backlash), but assuredly it is still going on.  From an enforcement standpoint - the % may not be sufficient for VSE/VSN to use resources to enforce.


----------



## okwiater

DavidnRobin said:


> Not sure if 'morally' is the correct term



If people are violating the T&Cs of their ownership, to the detriment of other owners, then the behavior is simply wrong. As such, it seems to be an appropriate use of the word "morally," particularly if they engage in this behavior knowingly. This isn't a gray area subject to one's personal feelings or interpretations. People may still choose to do it, but that doesn't make it right.


----------



## SMHarman

DavidnRobin said:


> Not sure if 'morally' is the correct term - however, from what I observe is that people's view on this is based on their vested interest since some are renting TSs as a side business. They just do not discuss it anymore (to stay under the radar, and due to backlash), but assuredly it is still going on.  From an enforcement standpoint - the % may not be sufficient for VSE/VSN to use resources to enforce.





okwiater said:


> If people are violating the T&Cs of their ownership, to the detriment of other owners, then the behavior is simply wrong. As such, it seems to be an appropriate use of the word "morally," particularly if they engage in this behavior knowingly. This isn't a gray area subject to one's personal feelings or interpretations. People may still choose to do it, but that doesn't make it right.


To the detriment of others. And that's the kicker. 

Someone using WKV points to rent a WKORV week that is in high demand and prevent another owner from staying using their points is detrimental. 

Someone using their points to book into say January in Cancun where there is usually high availability is not detrimental to other system users.


----------



## tschwa2

SMHarman said:


> To the detriment of others. And that's the kicker.
> 
> Someone using WKV points to rent a WKORV week that is in high demand and prevent another owner from staying using their points is detrimental.
> 
> Someone using their points to book into say January in Cancun where there is usually high availability is not detrimental to other system users.


If you are using low cost options to book into locations with higher MF then you could be undercutting owners trying to rent.  For example a one bedroom premium in October at Harborside cost the owner $1800.  That's for a 44,000 SO reservation.  I think pretty much everyone pays less per SO, so renting out those weeks with SO's from other locations still hurts owners even though there is plenty of availability.


----------



## okwiater

SMHarman said:


> To the detriment of others. And that's the kicker.
> 
> Someone using WKV points to rent a WKORV week that is in high demand and prevent another owner from staying using their points is detrimental.
> 
> Someone using their points to book into say January in Cancun where there is usually high availability is not detrimental to other system users.



I agree in theory, but I'm not sure it's possible to make your 2nd claim -- unless you purposely book a week at a less-desirable resort during a less-desirable season (bad rental strategy) and continue to check availability to ensure you haven't locked out other owners (unrealistic) with the intention of cancelling your reservation and attempted rental if that were to happen (yeah, right).


----------



## okwiater

tschwa2 said:


> If you are using low cost options to book into locations with higher MF then you could be undercutting owners trying to rent.  For example a one bedroom premium in October at Harborside cost the owner $1800.  That's for a 44,000 SO reservation.  I think pretty much everyone pays less per SO, so renting out those weeks with SO's from other locations still hurts owners even though there is plenty of availability.



Didn't even think about that scenario, but you're absolutely right.


----------



## SMHarman

okwiater said:


> I agree in theory, but I'm not sure it's possible to make your 2nd claim -- unless you purposely book a week at a less-desirable resort during a less-desirable season (bad rental strategy) and continue to check availability to ensure you haven't locked out other owners (unrealistic) with the intention of cancelling your reservation and attempted rental if that were to happen (yeah, right).


Fair points.  

I have in the past effectively rented points where someone advertised a wanted <45 days for a couple of nights that were still available in SVN. 

Morally I could justify at least to myself that I was not undercutting etc as I was providing something others were not selling.


----------



## DeniseM

I think the statement on Staroption reservations is worth looking at again.  Please note that this statement is only on Staroption reservations. 

By definition, a Staroption reservation is a reservation made 0-8 months before check-in, and the confirmation itself lists the number of Staroptions used:





> Rental of units reserved *using StarOptions* (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited



If Starwood/Vistana meant to say that Staroption reservations cannot be rented - period - they should not have included the section in the parenthesis:  _(other than a vacation period at your Home Resort.)_

They should have written:  "Rental of units reserved using StarOptions is prohibited."

You can look at it 2 ways:

1)  It says that Staroption reservations *at your home resort* are OK to rent.

2)  They meant to say something else, and they worded it poorly.

My guess is that VSE feels that they have a weak legal case if they try to prevent owners from renting Staroption reservations _at their home resort_, so they prefer to be ambiguous, because it keeps both sides happy.


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## DavidnRobin

Home Resort reservation is defined.
SO reservation is defined.
Renting of SO reservations is prohibited is stated.

Seems clear...


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## SMHarman

DeniseM said:


> I think the statement on Staroption reservations is worth looking at again.  Please note that this statement is only on Staroption reservations.
> 
> By definition, a Staroption reservation is a reservation made 0-8 months before check-in, and the confirmation itself lists the number of Staroptions used:
> 
> If Starwood/Vistana meant to say that Staroption reservations cannot be rented - period - they should not have included the section in the parenthesis:  _(other than a vacation period at your Home Resort.)_
> 
> They should have written:  "Rental of units reserved using StarOptions is prohibited."
> 
> You can look at it 2 ways:
> 
> 1)  It says that Staroption reservations *at your home resort* are OK to rent.
> 
> 2)  They meant to say something else, and they worded it poorly.
> 
> My guess is that VSE feels that they have a weak legal case if they try to prevent owners from renting Staroption reservations _at their home resort_, so they prefer to be ambiguous, because it keeps both sides happy.


It gets ambiguous because say you have 5 home resorts and use all your star options to rent at only one of those resorts. 

Now you are renting a SO reservation at your home resort. But you may not be using the star points from that home resort ownership. 

So head spinning that Carrie is dizzy


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## okwiater

Don't overcomplicate it. Suzanne's e-mail was poorly worded, but it's also not the official policy. Officially, you are allowed to rent only a Home Resort Reservation OR a StarOptions reservation when those StarOptions are used to reserve at the resort and in the season from which they were obtained.


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## DeniseM

1)  We aren't discussing Suzanne's email - we are discussing the statement on Staroption Confirmations that has been there for a long time.

2)  You and David are not saying the same thing - he is saying that NO Staroption reservations can be rented.


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## SMHarman

okwiater said:


> Don't overcomplicate it. Suzanne's e-mail was poorly worded, but it's also not the official policy. Officially, you are allowed to rent only a Home Resort Reservation OR a StarOptions reservation when those StarOptions are used to reserve at the resort and in the season from which they were obtained.


Quite simply with the pick and choose your star options functionally that exists now they can print an line on the bottom of each reservation confirmation now tat says. 

You are / are not allowed to commercially rent this reservation.


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## DavidnRobin

okwiater said:


> If people are violating the T&Cs of their ownership, to the detriment of other owners, then the behavior is simply wrong. As such, it seems to be an appropriate use of the word "morally," particularly if they engage in this behavior knowingly. This isn't a gray area subject to one's personal feelings or interpretations. People may still choose to do it, but that doesn't make it right.



https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> 1)  We aren't discussing Suzanne's email - we are discussing the statement on Staroption Confirmations that has been there for a long time.
> 
> 2)  You and David are not saying the same thing - he is saying that NO Staroption reservations can be rented.



Correct - that is what I am saying for the most part - however, I am saying that renting SOs is prohibited (that is different on whether or not it can be done, or whether 'moral' or not).  I do not disagree with Denise that it is poorly written, and also challenging to enforce.  I have had direct communication with the SC and her office on this exact topic (interpretation and enforcement, not morality  )

As mentioned, people seem to be confused on what is a Home Resort reservation (>8-12 months) - for WKORV/N, WPORV, and WKV (and assume others, but not all) this is defined in the CCRs prior to statement about renting SO reservations.

Added - okay... time to quit this conversation.  It has little impact on me since I only do name changes on HR reservations (3x per year), and don't rent SOs (whether at my HR or not).  Sorry for the folks getting the name change fee. RESIST! 
and Congrats! to all involved for making an impact, albeit small.
I emailed that the VSN fee ($140+30) should be reduced because of the fee - good luck with that.


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## Dawnwrey

Just received this email:

This email comes on behalf of Suzanne Clark, Vice President, Owner Services.  Thank you for taking the time to share your comments concerning the implementation of a third party guest fee.  Your feedback is certainly appreciated.  We sincerely apologize for your expressed dissatisfaction and would like to provide additional information to you.


While each resort affiliated with Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”) may have its own rules regarding usage by an owner’s guests, please note that once a VSN member enters the Network Period, your Home Resort rules are no longer applicable to your reservation and your reservation is instead subject to the VSN Rules, including applicable fees.  The VSN Rules and Regulations allow the Network Operator to ensure the effective operation of the Network.  Owners give up rights provided in their home resort reservation rules when they choose to enter the Network Float Period.


The Third Party Guest Fee is intended to ensure that owners have a fair opportunity to access all VSN Resorts during the Network Period.  Our goal is to ensure all owners have the ability to secure a wide range of reservations.  There is a correlation between the cost of servicing an increased volume of third party reservation processing (including multiple changes per reservation) which has contributed to the company’s decision to implement a guest fee.  Other factors include online development, the industry standard, and support of proper registration procedures. 


Please reference the VSN Membership Agreement, specific sections; “Enrollment in the Network”, “Assignment of Resort Reservation Rights” and “Owner Acknowledgments”.  Examples of the section language are referenced below:


Enrollment in the Network.  Owner will be enrolled as a Network Member and the Network Operator will accept Owner as a Network Member beginning on the first day of the term of this Agreement as stated in Paragraph 4 below, subject to the terms and conditions in this Agreement.  Owner agrees to comply with the terms and conditions of this Agreement, the Network Rules, and the rules, regulations, and restrictions of any Network Resort at which Owner reserves accommodations.



Assignment of Resort Reservation Rights.  For the term of this Agreement, Owner assigns to the Network Operator its reservation rights at the Resort.  Owner acknowledges that through this assignment, the Network Operator may make available to other Network Members a Vacation Period at the Resort subject to the Owner’s reservation rights during the Home Resort Reservation Period. Owner agrees that once a Network exchange has been confirmed, Owner has relinquished all use rights in the Vacation Period associated with the Vacation Ownership Interest (“Exchanged Interest”).  Owner further agrees that (a) such confirmation shall act as an assignment of the Exchanged Interest to the Network Operator; (b) the Network Operator is entitled to use the Exchanged Interest in the Network Operator’s sole discretion; and (c) the Network Operator is further entitled to keep any and all fees generated by the use of the Exchanged Interest.


Owner Acknowledgments.  Owner recognizes and acknowledges that: Owner has received copies of the Network Disclosure Guide, the Network Fees Chart, the Vacation Ownership Use Notification, the Network Rules and the Starpoints Disclosure Statement all of which are incorporated herein by reference.  Owner hereby accepts and agrees to all terms and conditions set forth in those documents.


Please know, VSN members who make reservations at their home resort during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12-8 months prior to arrival) and wish to transfer their reservation to a third party guest will not be charged the fee.  The fee only applies to a third-party guest reservation booked within the VSN Network Float Period or the VSN Network Priority Period starting at eight months prior to arrival.  Once the fee has been applied to a specific reservation, any further name changes to that reservation, will not incur an additional fee.  Third-party guests include friends and family members not listed on the ownership deed or contract and are not accompanied by the owner.  In support of resort security procedures, check-in and key issuance will be provided to the name on the reservation (with valid photo ID), therefore, Owners must contact Owner Services when changing a reservation to a third party.


Thank you again for your valuable feedback and the opportunity to respond.  We look forward to serving your vacation ownership needs for many years to come. 


Sincerely,




Bettina (Tina) Arias

*Consumer Affairs Specialist*

*Owner Services*


*T* 407 903 4831 *F* 407 903 4300

9002 San Marco Court, Orlando, FL 32819


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## alohakevin

Ditto


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## tschwa2

Has anyone received a refund yet on the guest cert fee and was that automatically done or did you have to call up and request it?


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## bankr63

We did eventually receive the letter regarding the fee, and then this weekend received a message apologizing for the first message and indicating that the fee only applies to VSN.  So if you are renting your owned non-VSN villa, there is no fee.


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## Helios

okwiater said:


> OR a StarOptions reservation when those StarOptions are used to reserve at the resort and in the season from which they were obtained.


This was my point yesterday...


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## Helios

SMHarman said:


> Quite simply with the pick and choose your star options functionally that exists now they can print an line on the bottom of each reservation confirmation now tat says.
> 
> You are / are not allowed to commercially rent this reservation.


That would help...


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## BLUE AYES

I called last night and was told my refund would automatically be returned to my credit card within 10 business days.


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## DavidnRobin

From RedWeek:

http://www.redweek.com/resources/as...term=gmail&utm_content=nl_news-askredweek-feb


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## PamMo

I was just going to post that link to the RedWeek article. Impressive that the guest fees would have generated over $2.5 million a year for Vistana!


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## DeniseM

This is gem in the article:



> When asked why Vistana was imposing the fees, an owner services rep responded, without prodding, "because others are doing it."



In other words - they are charging it, because they can.


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> In other words - they are charging it, because they can.



This is corporate speak of what VSN already stated in their followup email in regards to this fee is in line with 'industry standards'.

Sure glad that HR HOA docs seem to protect some from this fee (so far)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sail27bill

I just thought I would let people know that I received my credit from Vistana yesterday.  Hopefully, others have gotten theirs refunded too.  Thank you all for your campaign support and tireless efforts.


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## beachlynn

It is so disingenuous to say by implementing this fee it will make it easier for people to book at their home resort so they are enforcing this fee. The amount is a money grab and a nuisance but not enough to prevent people from renting out their villas if they can't use them.


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## dioxide45

We never did receive the followup email about the fee only applying to StarOption reservations. I wonder if it is because I couldn't find anywhere in our SVV docs that guest certificates are to be at no charge? Perhaps they reviewed all the different resort docs and the fee will still apply for all reservations where there was absence of that verbiage.


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## SMHarman

beachlynn said:


> It is so disingenuous to say by implementing this fee it will make it easier for people to book at their home resort so they are enforcing this fee. The amount is a money grab and a nuisance but not enough to prevent people from renting out their villas if they can't use them.


But it's not going to prevent people renting their villas. Or anyone really. 

It is going to add another fee to the against-the-rules activity of renting SO


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## dioxide45

There really is no incentive now for Vistana to prevent StarOption rentals. For every one, they get $59. There is even an ad in the TUG Marketplace right now where someone is talking about all the great StarOptions reservations they made and rented.


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## dsmrp

SMHarman said:


> But it's not going to prevent people renting their villas. Or anyone really.
> 
> It is going to add another fee to the against-the-rules activity of renting SO





dioxide45 said:


> There really is no incentive now for Vistana to prevent StarOption rentals. For every one, they get $59. There is even an ad in the TUG Marketplace right now where someone is talking about all the great StarOptions reservations they made and rented.



Agree, I think the people renting out SO reservation will just try to pass the name change fee on to the renter, in the form of slightly higher rental fee.  Cynically speaking, I wonder if VSE will be selective on which rentals, e.g. from certain resorts  like WKORV/N,  they want to crack down on.  Especially if owners are undercutting what VSE would charge.

I predict end of 2017 or 2018 will have an announcement of a reboot of VSN program. Hope I'm wrong


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## djyamyam

tschwa2 said:


> Has anyone received a refund yet on the guest cert fee and was that automatically done or did you have to call up and request it?



I received my refund on Feb 16, prior to me asking for it.


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## BLUE AYES

I received mine about a week after I requested it.


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## tschwa2

I saw that my refund posted on February 17.


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## ciscogizmo1

I have not gotten my refund yet.  I just called and they said that it would take 15 - 20 business days and we are on business day 14 according to my file.  Seriously... these people are a joke.


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## triangulum33

Our fee was waived due to us booking the SO at Lagunamar before the fee was implemented.  The rep actually did it without me prompting her.

This fee is such BS.


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## lorenmd

well i am going viral on them.  they will have a huge amount of negative publicity and if it keeps one person from buying a timeshare then they have lost money.  they require a guest certificate for my daughter to check in.  same name same address, but they want $50.  marriott said, no not for families.  but vistana wants to take on this social media tirade i am throwing their way, so be it.


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## cubigbird

lorenmd said:


> well i am going viral on them.  they will have a huge amount of negative publicity and if it keeps one person from buying a timeshare then they have lost money.  they require a guest certificate for my daughter to check in.  same name same address, but they want $50.  marriott said, no not for families.  but vistana wants to take on this social media tirade i am throwing their way, so be it.



If it's a home resort reservation, not SO reservation, not a rental, then the fee should not apply.


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## DeniseM

Whether it is a rental or not has no bearing on the Guest Confirmation fee:

*Staroption Reservation* - there will be a fee.

*Home Resort Reservation* - there will NOT be a fee.

However, the Reps are making a lot of mistakes implementing the fee.  If you have a *Home Resort Reservation*, and they try to charge you, ask to speak to a supervisor, or call back and talk to someone else.

Please note that if your confirmation states the number of Staroptions used for the reservation, it is a Staroption Reservation.  If you make a late reservation at your home resort (8-0 mos. before check-in) you will get a Staroption reservation - EVEN AT YOUR HOME RESORT.

If the confirmation says "Home Resort Reservation," it is a home resort reservation.


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## triangulum33

What if I make a Home Resort Res and rent the unit to a 3rd party.  Is there a fee?

This is #$&%U%^!!!


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## DeniseM

No....  The fee has nothing to do with rentals - the fee is on Staroption reservations - period.


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## tschwa2

They really have no way to know what is a rental or not.  Of course everyone would say it is not a rental if they had to pay for a guest cert.


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## pacman777

I think they should waive the guest cert fee if the last name on the reservation matches the owner for staroptions reservations. Vistana is turning into a money grabbing whore and starting to piss off a lot of current owners... this could be the start of a downslide in terms of reputation for Starwood branded timeshares.


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## DavidnRobin

triangulum33 said:


> What if I make a Home Resort Res and rent the unit to a 3rd party.  Is there a fee?
> 
> This is #$&%U%^!!!




No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tschwa2

pacman777 said:


> I think they should waive the guest cert fee if the last name on the reservation matches the owner for staroptions reservations. Vistana is turning into a money grabbing whore and starting to piss off a lot of current owners... this could be the start of a downslide in terms of reputation for Starwood branded timeshares.



Problem with this is many people these days (myself included) have different last names than my spouse and children and parents, brothers, sisters, etc.  That would mean people with traditional last names and unmarried girl children and married boy children get free gift certs while others gifting to those with the same relationship but different last names do not.

Unfortunately family members not on the deed, do not have deeded rights to use the timeshare and gifting a week is no longer assumed as a deeded right.  Luckily the original documents for the timeshares explicitly gave owners the right to gift the home week without fee.  Without that clause in those documents we would probably be paying the fee for the home week too.  Wyndham for example (and is the only one I know of) charges for gift certs even for the deeded usage and they charge a whopping $99 and you have to have a cert if you book multiple rooms even if you are there to check into those rooms.


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## lds337

Sorry I'm so late to this conversation, but I really appreciate all the information and hard work that went into this thread


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