# Why All This Anger?



## DB-Wis (Jul 4, 2010)

I've been following the discussions in this forum about the new point system pretty closely because, like most of you, I'm trying to figure out how it works.  And I've been struck by the level of anger many of you are expressing and evil and sinister motives being attributed to Marriott for offering this new option.

I just don't understand these diatribes.

I don't like aspects of the program, and I'm not sure at this point that there are enough benefits in it for me to warrant shelling out $695 to enroll my two weeks.  But, for the life of me, I can't see any basis for the irrational reactions that many of you are posting.  Sure, the "skimming" problem sucks, but it's no different than Marriott's long-established practice of giving fewer Reward points if you turn in a week than they charge in Reward points if you want to use points to reserve that same week.  Nobody in their right mind would make that choice with Reward points, and likewise no one will trade in their Vacation Points in the new program to reserve a week at their home resort.  But, in each case, the skim problem is simply the price to pay to get other options for your week.  In short, the skimming problem has always been there.

Likewise, I can't get all worked up over language saying that enrollees will not vote in ways that Marriott believes might damage the new program.  Sure, that sounds terrible, but Marriott knows that can't be enforced.  All of us have agreed to few worse things in credit card agreements and other "form contracts" that probably ARE enforceable.   So why get all hot and bothered over something that is not simply ever going to affect you?

Like many of you, I have concerns about how the program will affect the trading opportunities through II for those of us who don't want to use the new program.  But, if the program is so terrible (as seems to be the predominant sentiment on this board), then most of us will continue to use II as before and, if so, there should be little or no change.  True, Marriott might conceivably have the ability to manipulate the system, but I think they realize they'll quickly ruin the reputation they've worked very hard to establish.  Again, in other parts of our lives, we all live contentedly even though someone out there theoretically has the power to damage our interests.  In the scheme of things, I'm not going to lose sleep over this potential problem.  Aside for charging me too much when I purchased my timeshare, Marriott has always treated me fairly and bent over backwards to give me extremely good customer service.   Based on this experience, I'm not prepared to assume that  they will grab "legacy" weeks on II to benefit their new "point" owners.

There, I've gotten this rant off my chest.  I don't mean to attack the views of my fellow TUGers, but I wanted to express my strong disagreement with some of the strongly stated (and, in my view, unfounded) view some of you are expressing.  

Remember, change is good.


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## josh1231 (Jul 4, 2010)

DB-Wis said:


> I've been following the discussions in this forum about the new point system pretty closely because, like most of you, I'm trying to figure out how it works.  And I've been struck by the level of anger many of you are expressing and evil and sinister motives being attributed to Marriott for offering this new option.
> 
> I just don't understand these diatribes.
> 
> ...



I do not like the points system because it makes trading my 2-bd cheap weak for 2 2-bd prime resort weeks impossible to do. This decreases the value my Marriott week gives to me, but I do understand their reasoning for doing this, and it does add value and flexibility for some people. Though some people are actually angry, I personally am not. Saying I'm for or against one trading method or another doesn't mean that one is angry, it just means they prefer the trading method that they prefer.

I don't believe Marriott is taking advantage of anyone, but I also disagree with your reasoning as to why they are not, as you are basically saying that because you have been taken advantage of way worse than Marriott's taking advantage of you, it makes this episode of getting taken of advantage of ok, and you should just go along with it. That simply is not a valid reason to not speak up for which system you believe is the right one for you.

Some people get emotionally involved and lose objectivity. That has happened to some on here, but I wouldn't say its the majority. Part of the fun of these message boards is saying your opinion, and having people disagree with you in a constructive way. I disagree with most of what you are saying, but I am by no means angry with you for saying it. The actuality is we're both right. You can rightly say the points system is great, and I can rightly say I hate it, and both of us are correct because it's completely dependent on our current situation.


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## GregT (Jul 4, 2010)

Speaking personally, my anger is subsiding, but my disappointment with Marriott remains significant, and it resides entirely around the skim.

If I enroll, I'll pay $199/year (no problem), and pay $1,995 to join (no problem).  Then _each week_, if I ever redeemed that week for points, would be skimmed 1,575 points for each week.

These are very very prime weeks in Hawaii, which have now been skimmed  $630 in value for each week.

If I had a rental agent, would I pay them $13.3% commission to rent my incredibly prime week, rare 3BR properties?  No I wouldn't. I'd probably pay them 5%, maybe 8-10% but 13.3%, fixed forever?  

I might rent it to Marriott for $4,500 and if they re-rent it for $5,000-$5,500 good for them, because they took the risk -- but here they are taking no risk, they are merely pocketing the difference.   The MFs are paid for, and in any decent FlexChange/Open Season system, they would fill the vacancies.  But the discount (set now) is permanent and assumes those vacancies forever.

So, my anger (and I was one of the original angry ones) is subsiding.   The Skim really hurts the single week owner who purely because of the skim is effectively blocked from using the system if they don't buy 1,000 points from Marriott (or have to rent points, making the skim very tangible).  

But I view Marriott differently because I think the skim is very underhanded and excessive.  It feels Wyndham-ish.


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## mas (Jul 4, 2010)

DB-Wis said:


> ...Remember, change is good.



Change may or may not be good...but it is inevitable.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

*Anger is frustration*

Marriott seems to be saying that 3 out of 4 of their owners won't find the new Point program advantageous to them and so use the Legacy system for the next 40+ years.

In our case the numbers worked out fantastic and I'm in the 1 in 4 who will enroll.

Marriott had to break away from weeks for them to move into the Point future and after working for years only 1 in 4 owners can make week ownership better with the new Point system.

To me this is very significant - Marriott just didn't decide to piss off 3 out of 4 owners but that's the best they could do.

I don't believe that the 3 in 4 owners will suffer in ANY way - I see no evidence of this and must tune in the Black Helicopter frequencies to catch all the plots Marriott is involved with.

If an owner takes the time to learn the new program and decides that, like everything in life, there are trade-offs that they can't live with then NOTHING has changed at all.

But frustration is hard to sell against for Marriott and they will simply take orders from folks who want to enroll.

Personally I see eventually 50%+ of the 400,000 owners adding Points - they aren't about to do the analysis and want all the flexibility that Points gives.


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## windje2000 (Jul 4, 2010)

Is there anger?  Certainly some.  

Can't say the roll out of this has been anything other than unprofessional.  I for one have yet to officially hear of this new plan.

Can't say this plan is user friendly 

Can't say this plan is easy to understand.

Can't say its anything other than a way for MVCI to dispose of unsold timeshare inventory and grab some additional margin from existing owners.

Can't figure out the reasons for some plan provisions like the don't vote against me if you want to be in the points plan 

But see if you can give me a good answer to Marriott's motivations for this: 

Section 12 

If you haven't read it yet, read it now



> 12. In the event Owner's Resort Association does not cooperate with MVCEC or the Program, Owner acknowledges and agrees that for the remainder of the then-current term Owner will use Owner's best efforts to take any and all reasonable actions requested by MVCEC and/or Resort Association so that Exchange Members, Members, or persons who hold a reservation(s) through the Program for use week(s) associated with Owner's Timeshare Interest will continue to have access to such use week(s). Owner further agrees and acknowledges that Owner may be required to take certain actions in order to facilitate the use of the use week(s) associated with Owner's Timeshare Interest at Owner's sole reasonable cost and expense, including, but not limited to, the purchase of a guest certificate(s).




*Why does Marriott  expect the owners to be so angry they won't cooperate with the plan?*

What sinister motivations led to this insertion?

Let you imagination run wild and listen to the voices coming through your tin foil hat.

Seriously, what reputable company and plan thinks it needs a provision like Section 12?


The only conclusion is they're up to no good!


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## WelcomeHome (Jul 4, 2010)

I think the anger is about Marriott's arrogant assumption that their customer base will follow their lead like mindless sheep. It's insulting to think that people aren't going to see through the skim-scam of their one-sided program. It's degrading for Marriott to assume they can completely disregard a vast majority of their customer base and continue to succeed without any need for customer loyalty or satisfaction. That type of "sell the sizzle sales pitch" is about as outdated as Marriott's greed - especially in this internet & information age of the educated consumer - that's what the anger is about!

Hey, maybe Marriott can pay for anger management classes for their disillusioned customer base and hopefully the public relations disaster they created will magically disappear - POOF!

I'm glad change is good - because I suspect Marriott's reputation and financial future is in for some very unexpected changes.

Best wishes,
David


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## ondeadlin (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm honestly surprised there isn't more anger, particularly among developer buyers.

Marriott is essentially completely changing the rules for a program that it convinced people to invest significant amounts of money in. Whether you believe the program is better or worse, such a change of direction is almost guaranteed to cause adverse customer reaction.

Add in the fact that many of the benefits promised buyers have either been radically altered or eliminated (rental program, buyback program, new resort construction, lockoff and get three trades, etc.) and the main benefit of buying developer is now being given away to resale purchasers (Marriott Reward Points) and the fact that this will almost certainly destroy the resale market ... and potentially the II trading market for non-points members ... well, as I said, I'm surprised there isn't more anger.

Marriott has acted incredibly cynically here, selling the old system practically until the moment it completely discarded that system.

It would be hard for me to trust them going forward, and I'm glad I waited to see what happened here before I made a decision to buy (again) or not. And it's not that I think the new system is bad - I think it's great if you're interested in the flexibility and willing to spend more money - it's that I can't trust a company that abruptly changes the rules in midstream like this. I could see myself buying a resale to occupy every year, but I'd never buy thinking I would take advantage of the Marriott "system" because that system can (and will) change on a moment's notice.


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## m61376 (Jul 5, 2010)

While there are some "angry" posters, like Greg and others have posted, I think a lot of us are just very disappointed and disillusioned. Having been loyal Marriott customers for many years, frankly we just expected more. We expected to be dealt with up front- present the true costs to the system and not try to veil them with skimming. 

Personally, I expected some realistic point valuations. I know there have been several posts with speculation about how Marriott assigned values. It has been suggested that they were assigned according to Marriott's own reward categories, that they were based on rental rates, that they were based upon purchase price, etc.. When I look at the valuation given to the Aruba properties I have to admit I am a bit miffed. The SC and OC are at the top level of reward categories and command one of the highest rental rates across the board, yet I was awarded less points than required to book any week in my Plat. season (like many others). Marriott itself charged almost 5K more for OS than OV, but has decided that point users won't pay more for an OS view so didn't award more points despite the large price difference. I've been told that owners are willing to pay more for the view, since they own there, but occasional users- as in point users- aren't. But, then , how/why does Marriott itself charge $40-50 more per night than the OS view to the occasional renter? Then again, I've been told that renters are willing to pay twice as much to go to Aruba than renters at other properties that were awarded more points, but because the other properties are drive to destinations timeshare owners aren't willing to to spend even as much points. Timeshare owners are considered different than rental people- yet, to me at least, people are people and those that frequent certain properties are of similar ilk whether renting, trading or owning there. Maybe it's me, but I can't understand that Marriott values a property as being double the cost to rent but 80-90% of the point value.

So, as lovely as the Marriott reps have been to try to patiently explain to me how wonderful the new program is and how it really is fair, I just don't see it. But I do see how some people think it's great for them- those who own at resorts where the point valuation was commensurate with the market  rental rates (like Perry, for example) - then it's an attractive program. Although there has been significant point skimming there too, I can understand why Maui owners and Plat. ski week owners may feel the benefits of flexibility compensate for the negatives. Given the high point value and relatively low MF's several other properties have done very well too- HH, for example. But for many other owners, whose point allotments don't reflect comparable market rental values, who weren't awarded enough points to exchange into comparable properties (and this even happened to Hawaii owners; while Maui owners got a nice chunk, Ko'Olina and Waiohai owners were short-changed, for ex.), the program disappointingly reflects what I think many perceive as, at best, a disinterest in their current customers. 

Marriott has clearly decided to embark on a new direction and, instead of making their current owners feel like a valuable part of their past and integral to their future, it is clear Marriott is just intent on extracting every dollar they possibly can.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

*Hold the phone...*

*Just in from Marriott:


Marriott has decided that selling timeshares was just too easy and thus has abandoned 20+ years of timeshares.

Marriott introduces a hard to understand and convoluted way to sell and use Points.

Marriott has done its best to see to it that 3 out of 4 of all Marriott Owners won't have to use or learn the new program.

However, we could not shield 1 out of 4 owners from the new program and thus they are required to pay up to $1,995 in order to enroll their weeks in this unproven new venture.

Folks, we tried to save most of you....*

Isn't this what Marriott has just done and saved most of you a lot of money?

And for this you are mad?


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## Cobra1950 (Jul 5, 2010)

windje2000
     Not having the benefit of Marriott giving me the rules, had not seen that.  I have been in communication with our Board and looks like this is a way-Section 12-for Marriott to try to overrule/control of the local boards or at least overrule them in a way to get cooperation without official approval.  This of course would mean that the owners no longer have a say in their ownership.
      In the end underhanded tactics  like this may well lead to some resorts pulling out of Marriott


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## pedro47 (Jul 5, 2010)

We are not totally upset about the new point system. Concern Yes!!  However, there is so much lack of information about this point system coming from Marriott.  Knowledge is power.


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## timeos2 (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> To me this is very significant - Marriott just didn't decide to piss off 3 out of 4 owners but that's the best they could do.
> 
> I don't believe that the 3 in 4 owners will suffer in ANY way - I see no evidence of this and must tune in the Black Helicopter frequencies to catch all the plots Marriott is involved with.



Interesting as no one did more to feed the hysteria prior to announcement.


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## pwrshift (Jul 5, 2010)

Let's insist on some clarity here instead of math mumbo jumbo.  Marriott is not suggesting that all 400,000 owners will join the new plan, but assumes that 75% of those who do join will join the weeks side of the fence.  And once you've joined as an internal weeks trader you just know they will do all they can to get you to the other points side of the fence.  That's where their profit is.

However, if only 20% of the 400,000 owners join the new plan as expected, that's a base on only 80,000 members participating and only 60,000 trading their weeks.  Marriott will then fall way short of being able to supply the weeks or point units to keep members happy.  No wonder II isn't saying anything -- they'll just be there to pick up the pieces and come to your rescue.

Brian


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## Cathyb (Jul 5, 2010)

*Could it be...*



DB-Wis said:


> I've been following the discussions in this forum about the new point system pretty closely because, like most of you, I'm trying to figure out how it works.  And I've been struck by the level of anger many of you are expressing and evil and sinister motives being attributed to Marriott for offering this new option.
> 
> I just don't understand these diatribes.
> 
> ...



We haven't followed every detail on the change since we went on our Maui vacation right soon afterwards.  However could it be that the more 'angry' folks are the ones that bought resale?  Upfront fees are higher for them and the 'deals' they were able to pull (cheap resale but got two 2BR in exchanges, etc) have been curtailed or made much more difficult?  Just something to analyze  

We went to the Marriott Maui hot seat -- oops, I mean update a few days ago.  At first I was feeling duped; but now with 1-1/2 Marriots (DSV-1 plat and NCV EOY plat) -- I am discovering some values offered in the new program.  Not sure we will sign - but now it is 'maybe'.  Will go to one other update in Newport with another list of questions (had 18 for the first poor gal in Maui) before we decide.  Aloha


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## byebye (Jul 5, 2010)

*Too much fussing!*

I've been trying to keep up with a lot of these posts but my head really hurts.
I now own two Marriotts - one in Ft. Lauderdale and 1 in Aruba. 1st of all I purchased Beach Place in 2001 (thru Marriott) and I've been getting great vacations and a few trades thruout the years because I bought to stay at BPT. Up thru today I have not received anything from Marriott to tell me my ownership is different. WHen I called them (because of the opinions on this forum) I received the same courteous responses that I have always received from them. Will this change - I don't know. Will the way I use II and exchange into other parts of the world change - I don't know. I found TUG and asked a few questions which many of you gave me some sound advice. So, I purchased at the Aruba Surf Club thru a EBAy seller. I knew about the possible change to points but went along with the purchase. I believe my purchase made it under the June 20th deadline and I'm pretty sure that I can convert if I want to - I said-  if I want to. I called Marriott to change the sellers existing reservations that he made for me into my name and Marriott could not be more helpful. They did not try and shun me or force me into the points system or anything else. Like I said earlier my head hurts. I checked into the points system and found out it wasn't for me. The views, the "skim", isn't worth it for me to convert. As long as I can get a week at each place I'm happy. If I can rent out the guest rooms for the price of the MF's that'll be great. The world needs people like you to keep it interesting and somewhat honest. I'm glad that you guys pick apart every word and phrase cause guys like me just want to enjoy the next sunset and if you weren't around that might be a lot more difficult. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Marriott sold a pretty nice package in the past and they are keeping their word (as far as I can tell) to what they put in those contracts. You guys were or are trying to circumvent the system - which is fine - you deserve it if you can find the loopholes. Now, they are struggling trying to sell timeshares so they came up with this system hoping to make their stakeholders some money in this economy. I don't think that they are trying to "screw" their base legacy owners - maybe resale owners - but I don't think they're really puttnig the screws to you either. As far as I can see they are selling points to anyone that wants to buy them with the hopes of turning their balance sheet to the black. You can always use your units the way you purchased them - will that change - I don't know - but please let me know when it does. Thanks.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Interesting as no one did more to feed the hysteria prior to announcement.



For 4 years Marriott spread rumors and instilled fear mongering about resales.

I took them at their word and went through scenario after scenario on how they could screw us.

Then on June 20, 2010 I read what they released and realized that they not only didn't want to hurt their owners but repaid all the resale owners for those viscous rumors by making us a Marriott-sold owner for about $1k.

Fluid events requires fluid responses - I flipped positions in 10 minutes - I just followed the evidence presented.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

Delayed onset anger disorder, also known as DOAD, is a condition experience by most timeshare owners at some point during the life of their ownership.  Many owners avoid this disorder by putting their heads in the sand and simply vacationing to their hearts content or making a resale purchase at a price far below the prevailing market rate and dumping it before its value is lower than the new market rate.

DOAD usually sets in when key information, withheld either intentionally or intentionally, by the sales rep becomes available to and internalize by such owner.   The greater the revelation, the stronger the negative response.

Examples include:

1) It's not as easy to book that prime summer vacation as I was told.
2) I can't rent my unit for as much as the sales rep suggested.
3) My timeshare actually doesn't increase in value over time.
4) I finally figured out how to get that great trade up and now you are taking it away.
5) The resort developer really is screwing me over, I just didn't believe it until now.
6) maintenance fees go up way more than inflation.

DOAD is most acute with owners who fail to get the vacation destinations they wanted, don't use it for years, pay upfront fee companies several times before determining that it was a scam, then paying a PCC to take their timeshare off their balance sheet.  Many of these owners become life long crusaders against timeshares.

DOAD can be avoided all together by acknowledging that ALL Resort developers depreciate timeshares over time and that they always change the rules in a way that makes usage more difficult. However, given the lack of readily available information in the market, it is possible to leverage the loopholes to your advantage if you constantly monitor the market to stay ahead of the changes and looking for new loopholes.  In essence, take your head out of the sand and be very realistic about what your ownership is worth now and into the future and what the resort developer is likely to do to devalue your ownerships and beating them at their own game.

Once you master the above, timeshare NIVANA can be achieved.  Otherwise, DOAD is inevitable and avoiding it is futile.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> Let's insist on some clarity here instead of math mumbo jumbo.  Marriott is not suggesting that all 400,000 owners will join the new plan, but assumes that 75% of those who do join will join the weeks side of the fence.  And once you've joined as an internal weeks trader you just know they will do all they can to get you to the other points side of the fence.  That's where their profit is.
> 
> However, if only 20% of the 400,000 owners join the new plan as expected, that's a base on only 80,000 members participating and only 60,000 trading their weeks.  Marriott will then fall way short of being able to supply the weeks or point units to keep members happy.  No wonder II isn't saying anything -- they'll just be there to pick up the pieces and come to your rescue.
> 
> Brian



The new Marriott is in pre-construction and will be for years to come.  Cheap prices now to reward those that take a gamble.  That's always been the Marriott way.

Enroll, bank 2011 Points to 2012 and there might be some inventory then.  If not lock in something and rent it for cash to pay the low yearly enrollment fee and MFs.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> For 4 years Marriott spread rumors and instilled fear mongering about resales.
> 
> I took them at their word and went through scenario after scenario on how they could screw us.
> 
> ...



There was never any evidence that Marriott was going to totally screw over owners.  So, you did not in any way provide a balanced view of what Marriott was likely to do.  Instead, you were a fear monger whipping up concern in a frenzy that was actually quite irresponsible.  

The Marriott system isn't anywhere near as good as I thought they would create.  I mean that from both Marriott's point of view and the owners point of view.

Nothing in your flip flopping history on this message board convinces me that you will do anything but flip the other way again later.  The only constant is that you will take an extreme position and flip to the other side after its proven that you were wrong.  

When you start predicting outcomes more reliably, I'll start taking your recommendations more seriously. For now, I'll just be entertained by your next pancake move.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> There was never any evidence that Marriott was going to totally screw over owners.  So, you did not in any way provide a balanced view of what Marriott was likely to do.  Instead, you were a fear monger whipping up concern in a frenzy that was actually quite irresponsible.
> 
> The Marriott system isn't anywhere near as good as I thought they would create.  I mean that from both Marriott's point of view and the owners point of view.
> 
> ...



I simply look at what's presented and formulate a response.

Marriott spent 4 years hurting the resale Marriott market by it's constant bashing of resales - you might want to have a balanced outlook but I think a Fortune 500 company should act more responsibly to their customers.

Then they announced this new Program and those 4 years of bashing resales were insane - Marriott rewarded owners like me who did not buy from them but for pennies on the dollar resale.

I can't figure out what Marriott's goal was for 4 years - but I was under no obligation to take a balanced and fair approach - I assumed for the worst and was pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

I will admit you are a more perfect person than I will ever be....


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> The new Marriott is in pre-construction and will be for years to come.  Cheap prices now to reward those that take a gamble.  That's always been the Marriott way.
> 
> Enroll, bank 2011 Points to 2012 and there might be some inventory then.  If not lock in something and rent it for cash to pay the low yearly enrollment fee and MFs.



Ah, the old argument about buying pre-construction timeshares and the build cycle.  You were really big on this about 3-4 years ago.  That idea was proven to be completely wrong and you most likely took a bath believing that in Daytona Beach, Maui and Las Vegas with that week 52 penthouse purchase at Planet Hollywood.  

Are you actually trying to argue that Marriott is in a pre-construction build cycle?  This couldn't be anything further from the truth.  Marriott is in a post construction panic trying to figure out how to get other people to take assets off of their balance sheet along with the maintenance fee liabilities that come along with them.  This program was the best they could come up with.

Are there loopholes to be exploited?  Absolutely.  Does it fit into a nice Perry concept of the new destination club?  Not even close.

It is more informative to figure out what Marriott is likely to do given its current position rather than simply touting Marriott's point system as the greatest creation ever like you did with the Redweek point system.

Sorry Perry, but I am not buying your next batch of snake oil.  The last batch didn't do the trick.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Ah, the old argument about buying pre-construction timeshares and the build cycle.  You were really big on this about 3-4 years ago.  That idea was proven to be completely wrong and you most likely took a bath believing that in Daytona Beach, Maui and Las Vegas with that week 52 penthouse purchase at Planet Hollywood.
> 
> Are you actually trying to argue that Marriott is in a pre-construction build cycle?  This couldn't be anything further from the truth.  Marriott is in a post construction panic trying to figure out how to get other people to take assets off of their balance sheet along with the maintenance fee liabilities that come along with them.  This program was the best they could come up with.
> 
> ...



I know, I know I'm personally responsible for the US economy and what congress does to us.

Like I said, sounds like you are a better person than I will ever be.

Please forgive me....


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## DanCali (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Are you actually trying to argue that Marriott is in a pre-construction build cycle? This couldn't be anything further from the truth. Marriott is in a post construction panic trying to figure out how to get other people to take assets off of their balance sheet along with the maintenance fee liabilities that come along with them.  This program was the best they could come up with.



Great comment!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I simply look at what's presented and formulate a response.
> 
> Marriott spent 4 years hurting the resale Marriott market by it's constant bashing of resales - you might want to have a balanced outlook but I think a Fortune 500 company should act more responsibly to their customers.
> 
> ...



It wasn't Marriott spreading rumors, it was sales guys instilling fear into owners to make purchases today as they always do.

Now with the new program launched, the sales guys will do what sales guys do.  They will use fear tactics to sell points.  That's what they do.  It's what many are trained to do (maybe not at Marriott, but certainly in prior jobs at other developers).  

Just because they use fear tactics to sell this points program over the next 4 years, it doesn't mean that Marriott will be actively trying to screw over owners in the next four years. It will happen only because it is the nature of the beast.

It is true now, was true 4 years ago and will be true 4 years from now that Marriott will do its very best to come up with a balanced program that meets the needs of both Shareholders and owners.  I've always believed that they have been trying to do that.  Unfortunately, point systems provide the double edged sword of transparency.  It's good that we finally know what our weeks are worth.  But, we aren't happy that it isn't as good as we thought and the loopholes we once exploited are likely to go away.  So, there is anger when owners actually see the details of what their weeks are actually worth and how Marriott profits at their expense.  The only issue is that they have been doing this all along.  You can just see it more now.

For me, it's equally as bad to position this program as the greatest thing since sliced bread as it was to position it as the most owner unfriendly program ever. The truth lies in the middle.  This is a points system that is new, provides some new benefits for new owners, not as much for others, and will open up a whole new market for how Marriott Vacation Club owners will be bought, sold, rented and exchanged.  Our challenge is to be realistic (as opposed to extreme) about what those new optimization points are and move in that direction, stay put or sell out completely.


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## timeos2 (Jul 5, 2010)

*Say, is that your wallet that just spontaneously combusted?*



BocaBum99 said:


> Sorry Perry, but I am not buying your next batch of snake oil.  The last batch didn't do the trick.



As they slowly raise the temperature of the oil bath the victims never even notice they are being boiled.  It is SO warm and comfortable watching that big screen hi def tv....


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It wasn't Marriott spreading rumors, it was sales guys instilling fear into owners to make purchases today as they always do.
> 
> Now with the new program launched, the sales guys will do what sales guys do.  They will use fear tactics to sell points.  That's what they do.  It's what many are trained to do (maybe not at Marriott, but certainly in prior jobs at other developers).
> 
> ...



One thing I can count on when posting on TUG - no matter what side of the debate I'm on someone tells me I'm wrong - fine.

For 1 out of 4 owners Marriott's new rules favor them - the other 3 out of 4 the rules do not favor them.

Getting mad about this is like getting mad about the black-jack rules in Vegas - no one is about to change them and some folks win and some folks lose.

I am simply saying that Marriott came out with a set of rules that I find ripe for exploiting and will do so starting next week.

If that's a warm and cozy outlook at Marriott that's your impression.

I just want to exploit the new rules until another set of rules comes a long..


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> As they slowly raise the temperature of the oil bath the victims never even notice they are being boiled.  It is SO warm and comfortable watching that big screen hi def tv....



John and BB we have never met - I just get the impression you guys delight in humiliating folks and I guess that's what makes your life bearable.

Me, I'm on to the next project when I can count on you 2 will again drag out 5-year old topics and try to humiliate me again.  If you believe that you win the arguments that way I'm not going to stand in your way.

To each his own...


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Ah, the old argument about buying pre-construction timeshares and the build cycle.  You were really big on this about 3-4 years ago.  That idea was proven to be completely wrong and you most likely took a bath believing that in Daytona Beach, Maui and Las Vegas with that week 52 penthouse purchase at Planet Hollywood.



Perry, you've gotta admit Planet Hollywood really hurts your credibility with those of us who have been around here for any period of time. You've taught me a ton about Worldmark - best vacation purchase I ever made - but there is some validity in the criticism that you never see anything as in-between. At least on this board, your opinions are always "greatest thing in the world, let me tell you why ..." or "bad, bad, bad stuff, let me tell you why."

Boca and I have bumped heads on a lot of stuff here, so when I'm agreeing with him ... well ... you might want to at least take a step back and realize how you're being perceived.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> Perry, you've gotta admit Planet Hollywood really hurts your credibility with those of us who have been around here for any period of time. You've taught me a ton about Worldmark - best vacation purchase I ever made - but there is some validity in the criticism that you never see anything as in-between. At least on this board, your opinions are always "greatest thing in the world, let me tell you why ..." or "bad, bad, bad stuff, let me tell you why."
> 
> Boca and I have bumped heads on a lot of stuff here, so when I'm agreeing with him ... well ... you might want to at least take a step back and realize how you're being perceived.



I've been through ph a dozen times - it doesn't seem to matter.

John has a Gihad against Westgate and I have asked many times to be left out of his rants against Westgate; he has suffered greatly form the company and I'm to be held responsible.

But no matter where I chat, after about 4 - 6 posts Gihad John and his sidekick BocaBum have to bring up Westgate or some topic form 5 years ago - normally they aren't even in the thread - this is just humiliation plain and simple.

They believe that humiliating me is the way to score points here and for 5 years now the same old insults are lobbed.

This is just plain old petty belittling for the fun of it.

Watch, next thread I'm in Gihad John and TheBum will dredge up Westgate when it never even appeared in the thread; they just have too much fun at this.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 5, 2010)

*Created on your own*



PerryM said:


> John and BB we have never met - I just get the impression you guys delight in humiliating folks and I guess that's what makes your life bearable.
> 
> Me, I'm on to the next project when I can count on you 2 will again drag out 5-year old topics and try to humiliate me again.  If you believe that you win the arguments that way I'm not going to stand in your way.
> 
> To each his own...



No, we have never met. And I have in the past found some common ground on your positions and noted the same when it applied.  But the pattern of drastic, 180 degree turns you have exhibited time and time again leaves me breathless & completely unsure just exactly what you DO believe! 

While anyone can have a change of mind over time I have to say that the majority of what I wrote yesterday, last week, last month, last year, five years ago and even older I still stand behind - possibly with an adjustment to current realities if required. Your many pronouncements seem to have a half life of about 5 minutes and I'm not sure of any I could find any that survived over a year. Hardly the basis for any type of long term plan of action for anyone.  I've never had the goal of proving you wrong but have tried to find a stance that survived and turned out correct for a period of over a month.  Unfortunately I'm still looking.  If you find that humiliating I'm afraid that's not my doing.


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 5, 2010)

There does seem to be a stalkeresque element to the way those guys in particular (and a few others on TUG) react to you, so that's a fair response ... to a point.

But in this particular instance, the Planet Hollywood purchase - and the way you sold it - seems particularly relevant given the way you're selling the new Marriott system.

Now, I'll give you credit on some other things that I think you've been adamant about and been right about - skepticism of destination clubs in general and HCC in particular, the flexibility of Worldmark, the value of Summit Watch gold, etc. - but you've gotta take the good with the bad.

And the last thing you endorsed as hard as you're currently endorsing Marriott points was Planet Hollywood. At least in my opinion.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> There does seem to be a stalkeresque element to the way those guys in particular (and a few others on TUG) react to you, so that's a fair response ... to a point.
> 
> But in this particular instance, the Planet Hollywood purchase - and the way you sold it - seems particularly relevant given the way you're selling the new Marriott system.
> 
> ...



Why am I to be held responsible for the antics of Westgate?

When I bought in (and I've covered this many times) Westgate had a B+ rating with BBB.  Today they have an F-.

I'm responsible for this?

2005 the economy was strong, timeshares where at their height, and Vegas was exploding.

Congress caused that bubble, exploded it, and the same clowns are still running the show.

I'm responsible for that too?

Let's say I screwed up - how many years am I supposed to be humiliated on TUG?  It's been 5 years now and no sign of stopping - just getting more intense.

No this is just folks having fun at my expense and loving every second of it.

So to summarize, Gihad John, BocaBum, and others - it's been 5 years of humiliation - how about giving me a timetable of when you plan to stop the humiliation?

Or is it forever here on TUG?

P.S.
This thread is all about anger here on TUG - that applies to fellow TUG members too.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 5, 2010)

There's some truth in what you say, Perry.

There's also a fundamental denial of the fact that the price you paid for that week, at the height of the real estate boom, was crazy. Absolutely crazy. I remember the reaction here and it was very skeptical. That's not hindsight - that's the opinion expressed at the time.

And you don't have to "pay" any price for it, at least in my book, but it certainly makes one logically temper the enthusiasm with which you make the case for Marriott points.

Because, quite frankly, you made a very logical case for your purchase at Planet Hollywood.

But, I'll add this: Even Warren Buffet makes mistakes. Nothing personal here, just want to chip in with the opinion that, yes, to the regular poster here, Planet Hollywood still resonates, and is definitely factored in when weighing your enthusiasm of the new system.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> There's some truth in what you say, Perry.
> 
> There's also a fundamental denial of the fact that the price you paid for that week, at the height of the real estate boom, was crazy. Absolutely crazy. I remember the reaction here and it was very skeptical. That's not hindsight - that's the opinion expressed at the time.
> 
> ...



Holy cow - let me check my pulse - yep I'm not dead.

Thank you.


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Holy cow - let me check my pulse - yep I'm not dead.
> 
> Thank you.



Win or lose, right or wrong, Perry, what sets you apart from most folks here is you're either smart enough or experienced enough not to take things too seriously. Nice job and thanks for the laugh.

But there's no way you're selling me on this new points system, lol.


----------



## bogey21 (Jul 5, 2010)

DB-Wis said:


> I just don't understand these diatribes.


*Actually I think it is rather simple.  Nothing is sacred with Marriott.  When it suits them they just change the rules to their advantage and their Owners' detriment.

George*


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## Dean (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> John and BB we have never met - I just get the impression you guys delight in humiliating folks and I guess that's what makes your life bearable.
> 
> Me, I'm on to the next project when I can count on you 2 will again drag out 5-year old topics and try to humiliate me again.  If you believe that you win the arguments that way I'm not going to stand in your way.
> 
> To each his own...


Perry, I think you bring it on yourself by the over the top one sided doom and gloom approach that you take as I pointed out on the before thread.  Certainly John can be as far to one side and over the top as you on some subjects (Westgate, DVC, etc) but I've never known Jim to be at all that way, quite the contrary.  He's more of a reserved facts type of person, which brings me back to my first sentence.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

Dean said:


> Perry, I think you bring it on yourself by the over the top one sided doom and gloom approach that you take as I pointed out on the before thread.  Certainly John can be as far to one side and over the top as you on some subjects (Westgate, DVC, etc) but I've never known Jim to be at all that way, quite the contrary.  He's more of a reserved facts type of person, which brings me back to my first sentence.



I don't debate here with the idea of embarrassing a fellow tugger when I run out of ideas.  This technique of shutting down debate has been used far too long on me at least.  I'm not standing for it anymore.

Debate is fine - but the next time one of you guys runs out of ideas and decides that you need to embarrass me for sport I'm not going to be my normal jovial self but demand to know how that cheap trick advances the debate one iota.

I've let this go on for 5 years and I help a lot of folks here - I'm not going to let you guys get away with your cheap tactics anymore.

If some of you are rigid in your views of the business world that's fine - I simply uncover facts and form new plans and do this on a dynamic basis if you guys can't stand that I'm not going to turn a blind eye to it anymore since it just grows and grows here - just like the lynch mobs running around against Westgate, and WorldMark, Starwood, and now Marriott.

The lynch mobs accomplish nothing except to make TUG look like its run by thugs and folks stay out of debates for the jollies of a few here.

Again this thread is about TUG anger - the lynch mobs against Marriott and the lynch mobs running around having sport embarrassing others - I've seen many folks driven away from TUG because of the personal attacks.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Again this thread is about TUG anger - the lynch mobs against Marriott...



awww... Poor Marriott! Getting picked on by the owners....  What did they do to deserve that???


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

*Get over it guys...*



DanCali said:


> awww... Poor Marriott! Getting picked on by the owners....  What did they do to deserve that???



As far as I can see they don't deserve any criticism - believe me if I could find some you all know I'm not bashful.

Marriott dumped the timeshare model and followed Ritz-Carlton and began the Destination Club model - they handle everything on your vacation except the ride to and from the airport and parking.

By doing so they could only get 1 out of 4 of the 400,000 owners to integrate in a way that was fair to the owner.

Marriott isn't punishing the rest of you, the 3 out of 4 owners.  Just use Marriott the way you always have.  In our case our resale Gold Summit Watch fits like a glove and we will enroll this week.

I can understand foot stomping by the other 300,000 owners but most will simply buy 1,000 Points and join Marriott in their new vision of vacation ownership.

Get over it guys - you haven't lost a thing.  Sure, if you fire up the black helicopters and go searching for evil plots there are lots of them - they are all phony and designed to feed the "We hate Marriott" lynch mob on TUG.


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## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

*The Yes No Not Exchange Club*

*Yes*, legacy owners can join the new exchange. And do so with the same standing, irrespective of where the legacy share was purchased.

*No*, an owner is not obligated to join. You can continue to exercise your ownership as always.

If you join you are *not *required to participate. 

TUGGERS will do what they have always done. Figure out if it can be used to individual advantage. 

Personally, I applaud Marriott for the transparency of the new exchange. Unlike some here, I also give them a lot of credit for the care taken to preserve the legacy system.


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## rylan (Jul 6, 2010)

The thing that I am PO'd about is how Marriott values my weeks at significantly less points than it would require for me to occupy, and that they do not take into account *at all* the actual supply/demand of a particular resort.  The points value is solely based on the previous cost of buying a week.

What I am extremely worried about, is that I cannot trust Marriott to Not punish the rest of us who don't join.  The entire rollout is extremely unclear and multiple unanswered questions, and I can't possibly see how it isn't going to hurt those of us who want to trade through II.  Marriott is going to withhold points weeks and limit inventory going to II which will devalue week owners even more.  Also, what is to say they won't jack up the points required for weeks in the future like they do with the MR system?

Marriott sold sold sold for years based on the week system and how good it works with trading through II and being able to get trade priority at your home resort, and how various resorts are at different demand levels apart from the published demand index.  Now they are throwing that away and pushing a totally different system that is at odds with what they've told us for years.  Sounds like total spin coming from a used car lot.  Why should I believe them?


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 6, 2010)

*Hey, Nobody's Perfect.  (And No One Expects Perfection.)*




PerryM said:


> Let's say I screwed up - how many years am I supposed to be humiliated on TUG?  It's been 5 years now and no sign of stopping - just getting more intense.
> 
> No this is just folks having fun at my expense and loving every second of it.


I don't see it that way, Perry.  I think people see you as an intelligent & well informed personality who greatly values being ahead of the curve & who likes being recognized as such.  

That means, sometimes, that you're hanging out there exposed in case events don't turn out exactly as you foresaw.  And you plainly don't like being seen as getting it wrong, even though nobody -- i.e., no one, not anybody -- can ever get everything right every time. 

Anybody who's hanging out there exposed is a sitting duck -- & if I've hung myself out there, then I have only myself to blame when I'm caught short & called on it.  Same for you, or for anyone. 

I would love to live down the mistakes I have made over the past 67 years, obliterate them from the record & never-ever have to face them again.  But life's not like that.  If I did it or I said it, then it's forever fair game for anyone to haul out & hold up.  It is what it is.  

I for 1 am still impressed with your willingness to let it all hang out, consequences be damned.  But then when those consequences snap back & bite you on the rebound, as may happen to anyone, then you look better just suffering the slings & arrows in quiet dignity than you do by kicking back at the slingers.  Just saying. 

None of this is intended as a behavior lecture -- far from it.  It's more of a case that _I Feel Your Pain & Can't We All Get Along?_  However that may be, if the Grand Pro or any of the Assistant Pros should happen to find that this goes over the line, then they can just feel free to delete the entry, suspend me from TUG-BBS, & shux upon me.  I have no one but myself to blame. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

rylan said:


> > The thing that I am PO'd about is how Marriott values my weeks at significantly less points than it would require for me to occupy, and that they do not take into account *at all* the actual supply/demand of a particular resort.  The points value is solely based on the previous cost of buying a week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DanCali (Jul 6, 2010)

Fredm said:


> And you base this on what?  You can still trade with I.I., as always.
> I know some have concluded (based on nothing) that trades will not be available.
> Of course, a scenario can be painted that makes such an outcome somewhat real, but it is based on a bunch of unfounded assumptions.



Fred - I agree that II inventory will not necessarily evaporate, but there have been reports of salespeople using scare tactics and saying precisely that just to get people to convert. In fact, one of the active threads is titled "Those days are gone..."

So while it may not be true, it is Marriott helping perpetuate those rumors. I've also had a "points specialist" tell me " if you don't like it of course you don't have to enroll... you can keep doing exactly what you did but eventually the exchanges in II will not be there for you". They are using scare tactics to get people to enroll rather than selling them on the program's merits. 

As for the merits - I believe them to be weak. As much as I'm not a fan of Starwood, I would take that points system over this one in a heartbeat (home resort advantage, no skim, studio + 1Br = 2BR, simple points charts, etc).


----------



## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Fred - I agree that II inventory will not necessarily evaporate, but there have been reports of salespeople using scare tactics and saying precisely that just to get people to convert. In fact, one of the active threads is titled "Those days are gone..."
> 
> So while it may not be true, it is Marriott helping perpetuate those rumors. I've also had a "points specialist" tell me " if you don't like it of course you don't have to enroll... you can keep doing exactly what you did but eventually the exchanges in II will not be there for you". They are using scare tactics to get people to enroll rather than selling them on the program's merits.
> 
> As for the merits - I believe them to be weak. As much as I'm not a fan of Starwood, I would take that points system over this one in a heartbeat (home resort advantage, no skim, studio + 1Br = 2BR, simple points charts, etc).



Hi Dan.

Yep, some sales people are doing what they always do. Spreading FUD. Fortunately, we know that healthy skepticism is the best approach to what is said, pro and con.

I am reserving judgment of the new points product. Too much is in the eye of the beholder. You are the best judge of its merits as they apply to your situation.

My observations relate to legacy ownership. The exchange system is an option for legacy owners. I do not have reason to believe Marriott is self destructive. They are far from stupid. They do have a long track record of satisfied customers. Until there is real evidence that they no longer care, I must believe that they intend to preserve it.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 6, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Hi Dan.
> 
> Yep, some sales people are doing what they always do. Spreading FUD. Fortunately, we know that healthy skepticism is the best approach to what is said, pro and con.
> 
> ...



So here is another question for you...

Given that you are in the business of timeshare resales what do you think this will do to resale prices.

My initial reaction is that as long as usage and exchange opportunities remain similar to what they are now, so should resale prices - at least in the short run (2-3 years). However, if exchange opportunities do dry up, resale values will drop, especially at resorts favored by "exchangers".

On the other hand, if Marriott touts points as the next product then points may, over time, become more desirable than weeks. Sort of similar to how mandatory Starwood resorts are more desirable, whether that has a merit or not. If the resale price of Marriott points (unknown currently) will be similar to the resale price of a comparable week that can be booked with those points, the week will drop in value.

Any thoughts?


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## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So here is another question for you...
> 
> Given that you are in the business of timeshare resales what do you think this will do to resale prices.
> 
> ...



Good question! Hard to answer though.

My instinct tells me that the new program will hurt weeks resale prices in the near term. How much is hard to tell. For the same reason that Starwood Voluntary resales are hurt. Not the underlying value or functionality, but the lack of knowledge. Many buyers just won't sit still long enough to understand. It is discounted out of hand, which hurts demand. 

Longer term, it depends on how the legacy system really works for owners.  It can reverse and firm prices if concerns prove unfounded (as I think they will be).

Let me turn the question around, though.
What do you think would happen to Starwood Voluntary shares IF resale owners were given the opportunity to have what Marriott legacy owners are now offered?  Essentially, for a small enrollment fee they could have both StarPoints and StarOptions. Never happen.
Yet, that is what Marriott is offering all current owners.
Yes, it would also require some Marriott owners to pay up for more points to maintain across the board exchanges.  But it is absolutely transparent, and not much different than a Starwood owner who wanted to move from 81k Options to 148k Options. 
The comparison is imperfect because the systems are different.  
Nonetheless, Marriott legacy owners who do join the new exchange continue to have the existing system to use at their discretion.  *That *is a very big deal from where I sit.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 6, 2010)

Fredm said:


> What do you think would happen to Starwood Voluntary shares IF resale owners were given the opportunity to have what Marriott legacy owners are now offered?  Essentially, for a small enrollment fee they could have both StarPoints and StarOptions. Never happen.



If they do it for existing owners as a one time thing but future resales are excluded again then resale prices will not be affected because future resale buyers don't get anything. Prices would still be depressed.

In regards to Starwood, I am not sure if prices or voluntary resorts are depressed because they are excluded from SVN, or because there are 5 mandatory resorts that attract a lot of the resale demand. If all Starwood resorts were voluntary, and people just bought to use or trade in II (since the only alternative would have been paying Starwood a full freight price), I don't think so many of the voluntary resorts would trade at $1. This is more similar to the Marriott situation (in the near term) because it will be a while before you have resale Marriott points. I think the price of resale points, which should attract more demand that deeded weeks, will determine what happens to resale prices of deeded weeks. Just my opinion...


----------



## windje2000 (Jul 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If they do it for existing owners as a one time thing but future resales are excluded again then resale prices will not be affected because future resale buyers don't get anything. Prices would still be depressed.
> 
> *  *  *
> 
> I think the price of resale points, which should attract more demand that deeded weeks, will determine what happens to resale prices of deeded weeks. Just my opinion...



Two observations - 

1.  MVCI won't allow access to the Dclub by buyers of resale deeds post 6/20/2010.  What's the point, other than to devalue deeds based ownership interests.

2.  What's the point of severely restricting resale points buyers reservation rights relative to the rights to reserve that the original points buyer bought?  Other than to devalue points on resale.

Fredm, when you say wait and see - there's no proof, I would suggest you consider these two less than owner friendly actions.  

I would also think that two parallel exchange programs won't last forever.  I'd be curious to hear your comments on other timeshare models that run two parallel programs for the same resorts.

Regarding the 45% of sales to the existing customer base, they preached the gospel of deeds over points to that group for more than 25 years.  I really wonder if they expect that percentage to remain constant.


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## doodles1 (Jul 6, 2010)

*I agree*



spiker said:


> I've been trying to keep up with a lot of these posts but my head really hurts.
> I now own two Marriotts - one in Ft. Lauderdale and 1 in Aruba. 1st of all I purchased Beach Place in 2001 (thru Marriott) and I've been getting great vacations and a few trades thruout the years because I bought to stay at BPT. Up thru today I have not received anything from Marriott to tell me my ownership is different. WHen I called them (because of the opinions on this forum) I received the same courteous responses that I have always received from them. Will this change - I don't know. Will the way I use II and exchange into other parts of the world change - I don't know. I found TUG and asked a few questions which many of you gave me some sound advice. So, I purchased at the Aruba Surf Club thru a EBAy seller. I knew about the possible change to points but went along with the purchase. I believe my purchase made it under the June 20th deadline and I'm pretty sure that I can convert if I want to - I said-  if I want to. I called Marriott to change the sellers existing reservations that he made for me into my name and Marriott could not be more helpful. They did not try and shun me or force me into the points system or anything else. Like I said earlier my head hurts. I checked into the points system and found out it wasn't for me. The views, the "skim", isn't worth it for me to convert. As long as I can get a week at each place I'm happy. If I can rent out the guest rooms for the price of the MF's that'll be great. The world needs people like you to keep it interesting and somewhat honest. I'm glad that you guys pick apart every word and phrase cause guys like me just want to enjoy the next sunset and if you weren't around that might be a lot more difficult. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Marriott sold a pretty nice package in the past and they are keeping their word (as far as I can tell) to what they put in those contracts. You guys were or are trying to circumvent the system - which is fine - you deserve it if you can find the loopholes. Now, they are struggling trying to sell timeshares so they came up with this system hoping to make their stakeholders some money in this economy. I don't think that they are trying to "screw" their base legacy owners - maybe resale owners - but I don't think they're really puttnig the screws to you either. As far as I can see they are selling points to anyone that wants to buy them with the hopes of turning their balance sheet to the black. You can always use your units the way you purchased them - will that change - I don't know - but please let me know when it does. Thanks.



I could not agree more.
I bought resale and do not feel the least bit abused by the new points system. We did not buy to trade we bought to stay and enjoy the sun sets.
Am I annoyed that the points value given to my unit will not allow me to do an internal trade to ANY Marriott resort I want to go to, YES. 
That being said there are many places we can go to thru II and have found many resorts with wonderful reviews. Keep in mind we purchased at Kauai not needing a "Condo" and it is Hawaii so we can enjoy our sun sets. For us nothing will change until years down the road when it becomes time to sell.
All in all the discussions are very entertaining but for us we just don't care about points or we would not have bought resale.
Marriott still has a great product, they have not downgraded the resorts, they did not remove the new flat screens etc. Life's so short, for us life's a beach and that beach happens to be in Kauai.
If you bought a cheap resale to trade up shame on you for complaining, the first thing I learned from TUG and the most valuable was buy were you want to stay then work the system if you can. So it may be a little more work for me to stay at another resort but when all else fails we will always have week on Kauai and those amazing sun sets to call our own.


----------



## Dean (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I don't debate here with the idea of embarrassing a fellow tugger when I run out of ideas.  This technique of shutting down debate has been used far too long on me at least.  I'm not standing for it anymore.
> 
> Debate is fine - but the next time one of you guys runs out of ideas and decides that you need to embarrass me for sport I'm not going to be my normal jovial self but demand to know how that cheap trick advances the debate one iota.
> 
> ...


I've never known you to hold back Perry.  This is not a case of shoot the messenger or pick on you but of holding you accountable for your posting style and content.  I can't speak to others but no intent on my part to embarrass you however I'll point out that YOU draw a lot of attention to yourself at times, often unnecessarily so it appears to me.


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> As far as I can see they don't deserve any criticism ...
> 
> Get over it guys - you haven't lost a thing.  Sure, if you fire up the black helicopters and go searching for evil plots there are lots of them - they are all phony and designed to feed the "We hate Marriott" lynch mob on TUG.



I'm generally a fan, Perry, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. The world isn't black-and-white. You can't just pronounce this as something that's all bad or all good. 

And when you do, you hurt your credibility.


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## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If they do it for existing owners as a one time thing but future resales are excluded again then resale prices will not be affected because future resale buyers don't get anything. Prices would still be depressed.
> 
> In regards to Starwood, I am not sure if prices or voluntary resorts are depressed because they are excluded from SVN, or because there are 5 mandatory resorts that attract a lot of the resale demand. If all Starwood resorts were voluntary, and people just bought to use or trade in II (since the only alternative would have been paying Starwood a full freight price), I don't think so many of the voluntary resorts would trade at $1. This is more similar to the Marriott situation (in the near term) because it will be a while before you have resale Marriott points. I think the price of resale points, which should attract more demand that deeded weeks, will determine what happens to resale prices of deeded weeks. Just my opinion...



Voluntary resort resale prices are where they are because most buyers tune out when they learn they cannot get Options. All they know is they attended a Starwood presentation and were told (sold) how great Options are.

Same thing will happen with Marriott weeks.
Why? A large number of resale buyers are those who attend a developer presentation. They are sold on timesharing at the presentation, choose to not buy and then look for a resale. 
These buyers will have been sold on the virtues of what was presented to them.

It will take some time for the dust to settle on weeks pricing, IMO. Maybe we are saying the same thing.


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## Fredm (Jul 6, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Two observations -
> 
> Fredm, when you say wait and see - there's no proof, I would suggest you consider these two less than owner friendly actions.
> 
> ...


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Voluntary resort resale prices are where they are because most buyers tune out when they learn they cannot get Options. All they know is they attended a Starwood presentation and were told (sold) how great Options are.
> 
> Same thing will happen with Marriott weeks.
> Why? A large number of resale buyers are those who attend a developer presentation. They are sold on timesharing at the presentation, choose to not buy and then look for a resale.
> ...



I think we are saying the same thing... my main point was that, unlike the Starwood situation where one can get resale mandatory resorts that have points, there is no way to currently get Marriott points other than buying them from Marriott. So in the short run the decision will be do I pay Marriott $45K and $1800 a year in MFs for 4500 points, or do I buy a resale week (mostly where and when I want to go) for $5K-$15K and $900-$1800 in MFs a year. Given that decision, I don't really see resale prices tanking, unless II inevntory really dries up. It's just two completely different markets...

Once there is a resale market for Marriott points, that may change depending on where that market ends up. It will not happen overnight... I could be misjudging things here but that's how I currently see things unfolding.


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## windje2000 (Jul 7, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Well, the one that comes to mind is DRI. The interesting thing is that the deeded legacy owners enjoy a relatively high resale value at certain resorts, given the hammering all timeshares have taken in the past couple of years.
> 
> I know little about them, but will see what I can find out
> 
> ...



My view is that MVCI has realized that the 'develop and sell new' business model hasn't worked for a few years (they have some unsold inventory) and may not work for a few more.  A $700 million write down in 2009 on this business tends to get management attention.

So they change their business model to extract more value from the existing portfolio of resorts for which they have management contracts, which also helps them sell out the written off inventory.  

What strikes me is the provision that resale owners after 6/20 can't join the D Club.  That permanent ban reduces the depth and breadth of the D club points exchange (which would be exactly what I would want to increase if I were trying to make a new exchange system work) and just serves one purpose - depress the values of the deeded owners.

They've set it up so that there's only one buyer of your deeded interest that can resell and provide access to D club exchanges and that's Marriott.  They will be the only ones that can sell access to it.  So I believe it will be in Marriott's interest to make the exchange opportunities in the Dclub better than II.  

Marriott's  relationship with II has no transparency. They have the ablity and motive to interfere with II trading opportunities and make them less attractive than Dclub.

As you so aptly said, greed is a motive I trust.  Me too.  

And I would suggest that a customer they can't further fleece isn't worth anything to them.


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## laurac260 (Jul 7, 2010)

I will just be glad when this board stops being only about the points program and the PerryM show.   

Perhaps the moderators can start a "Marriott Points Program" board, so this board can go back to normal.


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## travelplanner70 (Jul 7, 2010)

Marriott told me that a resale owner who has joined the D Club can resell their unit with the new owners being members of the D Club - even without paying an additional membership fee of $1495.  Can anyone confirm that?  Thanks.


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## Fredm (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So in the short run the decision will be do I pay Marriott $45K and $1800 a year in MFs for 4500 points, or do I buy a resale week (mostly where and when I want to go) for $5K-$15K and $900-$1800 in MFs a year.



Ah! the $64,000 (or $45,000) question.
If you are the novice buyer I talked about, you would do nothing as often as not. Doing nothing takes a buyer out of the resale market.

Personally, I would buy the 5-15k week, and enjoy the system that has worked well for so long. I suspect you would also.

The choices facing legacy owners are stand pat, pay 2k to have both, or sell to relieve whatever anxiety the product introduction is causing and get on with life. 
Again, personally, I would stand pat.


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## Fredm (Jul 7, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> And I would suggest that a customer they can't further fleece isn't worth anything to them.



Different interpretations is what makes the world go 'round. For the sake of us all, I hope you are wrong.


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## windje2000 (Jul 7, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Ah! the $64,000 (or $45,000) question.
> If you are the novice buyer I talked about, you would do nothing as often as not. Doing nothing takes a buyer out of the resale market.
> 
> Personally, I would buy the 5-15k week, and enjoy the system that has worked well for so long. I suspect you would also.
> ...



Stand pat - that's about how I see it right now.  But I will continue thinking about what this business/program will look like long term, how my ability to use my ownership interests will be affected, and how I can maximize benefit and/or minimize loss within that framework.


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## windje2000 (Jul 7, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Different interpretations is what makes the world go 'round. For the sake of us all, I hope you are wrong.



Absolutely right - opinions vary, and that's what makes a market.


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## Whirl (Jul 7, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> I don't see it that way, Perry.  I think people see you as an intelligent & well informed personality who greatly values being ahead of the curve & who likes being recognized as such.
> 
> That means, sometimes, that you're hanging out there exposed in case events don't turn out exactly as you foresaw.  And you plainly don't like being seen as getting it wrong, even though nobody -- i.e., no one, not anybody -- can ever get everything right every time.
> 
> ...



Alan, 

So well said and rational. You might be on my list of folks I would like to spend a day with before I die.  You always have a way of chiming in with a bit of sage and thoughtful wisdom.

Yep, PerryM you put yourself out there, and this is a public discussion forum. Isn't that what we want? He livens things up and puts his opinions out there. Its great. I read them when I have time or interest, as with anything on this board. 

I don't really care if he is right or wrong,  credibility or not or what percentage of  past predictions have come true. 

There is not a soul on these boards whose opinion will singularly sway me to act on way or the other. 

We share opinions and share thought processes. I appreciate all the variations in shared rationales and deliberations. That is what is interesting and useful. As for conclusions... we should all draw our own.

All of us can and have come to conclusions based on seemingly solid rationale and end up on the wrong side. 

Keep the opinions, idea and analysis coming. I love that they are here and shared and I am not blaming *anyone* if I make a bad decision. It's my decision, in the end. I chose to pull ideas together in a way that lead to that decision -- right or wrong!


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## KarenP (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm "standing pat" since I have until Dec. 31 to decide and still get the 800 pluspoints.  I've already reserved my 2011 week for my own use, so no stress about that.  I'm relying on this board and others to keep me informed about how the new system is working before I finally do decide if it's worth $1495 for me to keep my options open.

Thank goodness for TUG!!!


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

travelplanner70 said:


> Marriott told me that a resale owner who has joined the D Club can resell their unit with the new owners being members of the D Club - even without paying an additional membership fee of $1495.  Can anyone confirm that?  Thanks.



He lied was misinformed.

See this thread


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## SueDonJ (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> He lied was misinformed.
> 
> See this thread



I did see that thread, and I agree with Hipslo's interpretation of the language in his Post #17.  It appears that Marriott has left the door open for the future possibility of existing Weeks sold through an approved broker to be eligible for enrollment in the Destination Club.

Although I do agree that the rep is misinformed about the enrollment fee - there will definitely be a fee, and just like every other fee related to any timeshares the enrollment fees will only increase over time.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I did see that thread, and I agree with Hipslo's interpretation of the language in his Post #17.  It appears that Marriott has left the door open for the future possibility of existing Weeks sold through an approved broker to be eligible for enrollment in the Destination Club.
> 
> Although I do agree that the rep is misinformed about the enrollment fee - there will definitely be a fee, and just like every other fee related to any timeshares the enrollment fees will only increase over time.



approved broker = full retail price. Of course I'd love to sell my resale week for full retail and will gladly pay a 40% commission. In fact, Marriott jacked up retail prices of weeks right before the launch to make the prices more equal to point allocations. But realistically selling at full retail will take years. And it may never sell...

In fact, selling weeks at full retail worked so well that even Marriott scrapped that idea with the weeks they own and launched the "Destination Club". And if they sell your week as points you may have to wait in line behind the millions of points Marriott owns and needs to sell.

Yes, the door is always open. And even if it wasn't, rules can change anytime. But when someone decides to sell they typically want the money in a matter of weeks or months, not years. And using that more realistic door, no resale week will qualify to reenroll.

And Marriott salespeople telling people to enroll because their week will be more valuable on the resale Market is just wrong.


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## travelplanner70 (Jul 7, 2010)

When the salesperson told me that anyone buying resale would be able to take part in D Club, I expressed surprise that Marriott would allow that. She then responded that she asked her boss specifically about that.  I am tempted to email her to get it in writing.


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