# Annual Meeting



## ronparise (May 19, 2016)

The Annual meeting is at the Bonnet Creek Hilton tomorrow

Is anyone else going to be there, or is it just me.


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## wjappraise (May 19, 2016)

I'm not going. But would love a report. Is there something to be gained by attending?  I never have done so, but have no valid reason short of thinking it was a bit of pomp and circumstance with no real purpose.  Am I wrong?   

Wes


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## ronparise (May 19, 2016)

wjappraise said:


> I'm not going. But would love a report. Is there something to be gained by attending?  I never have done so, but have no valid reason short of thinking it was a bit of pomp and circumstance with no real purpose.  Am I wrong?
> 
> Wes
> 
> ...



I call it a dog and pony show..  I live just 3 hours away and its a nice getaway 

But I have made some pretty good contacts here. (Wyndham execs)


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## lennyb216 (May 20, 2016)

*Owners meeting*

Nice to finally meet you.


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## ronparise (May 21, 2016)

Taken just as the meeting was about to begin yesterday..There was some big news announced yesterday... Ill post my notes when I get home


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## John_and_Val (May 21, 2016)

Pretty good turn-out. I watched the live feed.....Noticed they pushed "Voyager" a lot. Looking forward to what you have to say Ron.
By the way - did you win anything???


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## ronparise (May 21, 2016)

John_and_Val said:


> Pretty good turn-out. I watched the live feed.....Noticed they pushed "Voyager" a lot. Looking forward to what you have to say Ron.
> By the way - did you win anything???



As it turns out the solution to all the worlds problems is Voyager


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## buckor (May 21, 2016)

Interested in hearing what you felt were the important take aways and any other changes coming. 

Thanks in advance, Ron!

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## henley1 (May 21, 2016)

I am anxiously awaiting your post Ron.

Thanks for keeping us informed.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2016)

The annual Club Wyndhan meeting is a 3 part affair, 1) the official annual meeting of the Fairshare Trust 2) lunch 3) the exhibits and a q&a session

First of all lunch was great, really really good stuff, The Hilton does it right

Here is a list of the exhibits that I remember, RCI, VIP, Presidential Reserve, Wyndham at Home, Club Pass, Wyndham Travel, Percs by Wyndham, Hotel Division, And there was a Help center where you could learn how to use the website to make a reservation

and the best for last, a question and answer session was held toward the end of the day


Please understand, my purpose in attending this meeting was a whole lot different than most, so what I took note of and remember is not complete. Just because I dont talk about  something here doesnt mean it wasnt covered at the meeting

My goal here was to confirm what I already know and that is Wyndham really doesnt like  megarenter activity,.and  I wanted to know if the top executives at Wyndham knew me.  Turns out that to a man (and woman) they all know me. As one guy put it we all know who you are. I spoke with  Geoff Richards, chief operations officer,  Peter Hernandez, Hospitality Division Controller,  Mark Johnson chief hospitality officer., Richard Scinta, Vice President, Club and Association Governance. I also met the top people in Ovation, Owner Care and Title services> I didnt get to the sales and marketing guy



The business meeting was about an hour and a half in the morning

Only 3 speakers, 

 Geoff Richards (Presidents report) 2) Peter Hernandez (treasurers report) and 3) Mark Johnson (Operations Report)

Geoff Richards opened with a general discussion of where we have been and where we are going. This is our 50th year; Fairfield Bay dates back to 1966) (http://visitfairfieldbay.com/city-of-fairfield-bay/history/)  and They are calling this Wyndham Vacation Ownerships 25th year.  

Geoffs big news was that Voyager would be operational by the next annual meeting. the features that interested me would be a better search functionality, 24/7 operations and the ability to do ARP online. I learned later that this will be the first phase. Worldmark and Shell would be brought in later, so Club Pass will ultimately be possible online  and that there will be no wait list (for now). He also discussed the partnership with Norwegian Cruise lines, Club Pass and Wyndham Rewards.   Oh and Wyndham is really proud of Ovation (I mean why wouldnt they like it, they get inventory at zero cost and can sell it at $200/1000 points... Whats not to like about that?)

Peter Hernandez presented the treasures report  Its important to remember that this is a discussion of only the clubs budget, not the budgets of the individual resorts

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyx5rdh47qicyax/2016 Wyndham Owners Mtg Fin Presentation.pdf?dl=0

Mark Johnson, As Chief Hospitality officer he is pretty much responsible for everything in Wyndham that isnt sales. His message was that there is no company without us;  happy and satisfied  customers.. At least that was my take. I dont have any notes on his presentation


Things I learned at the exhibits 

Wyndham at Home:  The pillows at the resorts can be purchased through Wyndham at Home. I knew that but I learned that the Blue Label pillows are whats used at the resorts. so I dont have to spend the money for the more expensive Black Label. (My wife and I really like the pillows at the resorts)

Wyndham Travel is a full service travel agency and you can use money, Its not just a points exchange

Things I learned at the Q and A

Owners still hate sales, but the sales department doesn't care. 
Voyager is the answer to almost everything else,
Owners dont like that we have to buy a separate guest cert for each segment of a split reservations
Lots of owners do the cancel and rebook thing and think its their right as VIP owners to get every reservation at a discount


My admittatly narrow focus, and quite selfish take-away:   
Wyndham really doesnt like megarenting because it generates so many complaints from the owners.  They know me and what I do and think Im a reasonable guy that plays within the rules. They cant afford too many unhappy owners,  so they have to do something about controlling rentals, and of course me


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## Sandi Bo (May 22, 2016)

Thanks for posting your notes Ron. 

One of these years I hope to go to one of those  Seems like a nice time to be in Orlando and would be interesting/entertaining.


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## clifffaith (May 22, 2016)

Does anyone know if Wyndham Travel services the Worldmark accounts as well?  We hate the Expedia-type travel services that Diàmond Resorts utilizes.  There are so many Worldmark resorts in the west (we are in Los Angeles) that we run our account down to zero each year, so we use our DRI account when we need to make other travel arrangements and it's like pulling teeth to make things happen.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2016)

clifffaith said:


> Does anyone know if Wyndham Travel services the Worldmark accounts as well?  We hate the Expedia-type travel services that Diàmond Resorts utilizes.  There are so many Worldmark resorts in the west (we are in Los Angeles) that we run our account down to zero each year, so we use our DRI account when we need to make other travel arrangements and it's like pulling teeth to make things happen.



I asked that question directly and was told that they are different, but the same

I have never called Wyndham Travel but I did call Worldmark travel once. I was looking for a competitive bid for a flight I had scheduled.. They came in almost exactly the same as what I got through Orbitz.


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## buckor (May 22, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The annual Club Wyndhan meeting is a 3 part affair, 1) the official annual meeting of the Fairshare Trust 2) lunch 3) the exhibits and a q&a session
> 
> First of all lunch was great, really really good stuff, The Hilton does it right
> 
> ...


Thanks Ron for the update.

One would think that Wyndham would like Mega renters like yourself...you keep a lot of people happy and a lot of inventory in use with MFs paid.

The major thing you mentioned that I can agree with at this point is not requiring 2 guest certs for a 2 transaction reservation. I mean, that only seems like common sense...I would only second that with not requiring a second reservation credit. If Wyndham is offering 2 rooms to cover one entire reservation then it should only be one transaction credit and one guest cert (if required).

Just my $.02...but I am just getting started with all this so I don't know much!

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## Ty1on (May 22, 2016)

All reservations in a single day are one transaction.


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## buckor (May 22, 2016)

Ty1on said:


> All reservations in a single day are one transaction.


True... forgot about that!

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## henley1 (May 22, 2016)

*comment and question*

Comment:  I would also think that Wyndham likes the mega-renters because they provide a steady stream of guests for timeshare sales.

Question:  Was there any mention at the meeting of the specific steps management might take to make it harder on the renters (ie discontinuing platinum benefits for resale accounts or making cancel rebook more difficult)?


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## ronparise (May 22, 2016)

henley1 said:


> Comment:  I would also think that Wyndham likes the mega-renters because they provide a steady stream of guests for timeshare sales.
> 
> Question:  Was there any mention at the meeting of the specific steps management might take to make it harder on the renters (ie discontinuing platinum benefits for resale accounts or making cancel rebook more difficult)?



The problem Wyndham has with renting is I believe two fold, 1) it generates complaints. The average wyndhan owners has something like 250000 points When some guy that paid $35000  for those points and the privilege of paying $1500  a year for his vacation accommodations,  shares a hot tub with a guy that paid me $1000 for the same thing, he is understandably upset and he complains,,, loudly Too many complaints and thats gotta hurt sales. and 2) Wyndham is in the rental business too, they have to be looking at the money guys like me generate and think that it should rightfully be theirs. Yes we bring in fresh meat for the salesmen, but when Wyndham does a rental it brings in fresh meat too.


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## Bigrob (May 22, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The problem Wyndham has with renting is I believe two fold, 1) it generates complaints. The average wyndhan owners has something like 250000 points When some guy that paid $35000  for those points and the privilege of paying $1500  a year for his vacation accommodations,  shares a hot tub with a guy that paid me $1000 for the same thing, he is understandably upset and he complains,,, loudly Too many complaints and thats gotta hurt sales. and 2) Wyndham is in the rental business too, they have to be looking at the money guys like me generate and think that it should rightfully be theirs. Yes we bring in fresh meat for the salesmen, but when Wyndham does a rental it brings in fresh meat too.



I think there is a third factor too, and that's the one that Wyndham states is the reason for most of the changes they implement; to improve availability for all owners. In order for the guy to even have the opportunity to share the hot tub with the renter, there has to be availability, and the big points managers have all the reservations and availability tied up in the hundreds of accounts they manage. An owner finds he can't book with his points, yet there are numerous places online he can find availability to rent the very same unit (and to rub salt into the wound, he also discovers he can rent it for less than his maintenance fees).


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## Bigrob (May 22, 2016)

henley1 said:


> Comment:  I would also think that Wyndham likes the mega-renters because they provide a steady stream of guests for timeshare sales.
> 
> Question:  Was there any mention at the meeting of the specific steps management might take to make it harder on the renters (ie discontinuing platinum benefits for resale accounts or making cancel rebook more difficult)?



I used to think they had a more symbiotic view of the mega-renter than they actually do. I reasoned that mega-renters were doing a lot of marketing and outreach and making "the Wyndham experience" available to many more people at their own expense, and that Wyndham recognized the value in this (for them) free marketing and exposure. However, they may have found that renters that pay discounted rates are not a good target for retail timeshare sales... 

I don't doubt that they will continue to look for ways to make it more difficult for mega-renters while at the same time maintaining a level of benefits that provide differentiation from resale points. It's a difficult balancing act because whatever they implement has to be targeted so it doesn't adversely affect the VIP Owner who is using his ownership for personal use. 

FYI, there are no platinum benefits for resale accounts. I think what you mean is if you add resale contracts to a platinum account, not allowing the VIP benefits to extend to the resale points. Just wanted to clarify as someone new might think resale accounts get VIP benefits... they do not.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2016)

Bigrob said:


> I think there is a third factor too, and that's the one that Wyndham states is the reason for most of the changes they implement; to improve availability for all owners. In order for the guy to even have the opportunity to share the hot tub with the renter, there has to be availability, and the big points managers have all the reservations and availability tied up in the hundreds of accounts they manage. An owner finds he can't book with his points, yet there are numerous places online he can find availability to rent the very same unit (and to rub salt into the wound, he also discovers he can rent it for less than his maintenance fees).



I know that's what they say about availability but that's baloney. they can put you and me out of business but it won't create availability. There will still be the same number of units to reserve and the same number of points to reserve them with. They may not see my ad but they won't be able to reserve what they want either


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## Bigrob (May 22, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I know that's what they say about availability but that's baloney. they can put you and me out of business but it won't create availability. There will still be the same number of units to reserve and the same number of points to reserve them with. The may not see my ad but they won't be able to reserve what they want either



That is not how they see it, of course. Said another way; if it at certain point in time, there are 60% renters and 40% owners at a resort, and by making changes, they switch that to be 40% renters and 60% owners. They have then created more availability for owners. Same number of units, same number of points; but more of those points are being used for owner reservations rather than reservations that are rented out.

It doesn't really matter whether you and I agree with this perspective or not; it only matters that the executives at Wyndham believe this is the case and are taking actions directed at effecting this revised occupancy mix.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2016)

Bigrob said:


> That is not how they see it, of course. Said another way; if it at certain point in time, there are 60% renters and 40% owners at a resort, and by making changes, they switch that to be 40% renters and 60% owners. They have then created more availability for owners. Same number of units, same number of points; but more of those points are being used for owner reservations rather than reservations that are rented out.
> 
> It doesn't really matter whether you and I agree with this perspective or not; it only matters that the executives at Wyndham believe this is the case and are taking actions directed at effecting this revised occupancy mix.



We do agree on what's gonna happen it's just that I don't think it will make any difference to most of the ownership


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## raygo123 (May 22, 2016)

ronparise said:


> We do agree on what's gonna happen it's just that I don't think it will make any difference to most of the ownership


Personally, I would look forward to that.  The more 77000 point contracts they sell, pays the bills.  And    with bonus points., May, there was one at Nashville a young couple about 30, their first trip.  Gives me some time before they become a problem.  If they ever do.

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## ronparise (May 23, 2016)

Bigrob said:


> That is not how they see it, of course. Said another way; if it at certain point in time, there are 60% renters and 40% owners at a resort, and by making changes, they switch that to be 40% renters and 60% owners. They have then created more availability for owners. Same number of units, same number of points; but more of those points are being used for owner reservations rather than reservations that are rented out.
> 
> It doesn't really matter whether you and I agree with this perspective or not; it only matters that the executives at Wyndham believe this is the case and are taking actions directed at effecting this revised occupancy mix.



I dont understand how Wyndham can call that more availability,(but of course they will when responding to the folks that complain they can get what they want whe they want it

 You have described un-available units, no matter who is sleeping in them owners or renters they are un available to the rest of the ownership

But I agree 100%, thats the track wyndham is on. I wonder how successful they will be however as long as the respect the "rights" of deeded owners, like they did with the 10 nightly limit.  The real popular places will fill up  at 13 months and the rest of the owners that wanted a place for bike week, or Mardi Gras or comic con or a weekend at Glacier Canyon will still be upset when they see  ads for those events on Craigs list

I know its going to continue (the squeeze on renting) but I also know its not going to make any real difference to most owners even if they put us out of business.


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## Roger830 (May 23, 2016)

Wyndham made the situation even worse by allowing canceled credit pooled points to return to the credit pool.

Now when credit pooled reservations are canceled and rebooked at 50%, the canceled points can again be used the following year for additional bookings, thus consuming even more reservations than in the past.


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## raygo123 (May 23, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> Wyndham made the situation even worse by allowing canceled credit pooled points to return to the credit pool.
> 
> Now when credit pooled reservations are canceled and rebooked at 50%, the canceled points can again be used the following year for additional bookings, thus consuming even more reservations than in the past.


Or worse, when regular year points are booked, under ARP, and credit pool points are used to rebook.  That opens the door to perpetuating the number of points available to the renter, and those points are resale points.  Now, renters can throw all their resale points immediately into the credit pool to rebook the ARP reservations.  Then, as the year goes on, if platinum, if something doesn't rent, they will just cancel that reservation, and the points return to the pool.  100% utilization of their point year over year.

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## Bigrob (May 23, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> Wyndham made the situation even worse by allowing canceled credit pooled points to return to the credit pool.
> 
> Now when credit pooled reservations are canceled and rebooked at 50%, the canceled points can again be used the following year for additional bookings, thus consuming even more reservations than in the past.



There's not really a significant change here, as many of the mega-renters had multiple use years in their accounts that allowed the cancelled points to roll forward anyway. Now at least there is a fixed end date.


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## Roger830 (May 23, 2016)

Bigrob said:


> There's not really a significant change here, as many of the mega-renters had multiple use years in their accounts that allowed the cancelled points to roll forward anyway. Now at least there is a fixed end date.



I don't see any way of determining how significant it will be. It seems to me that the use year gimmick isn't as clean as canceled pool points returning. Also, points managers are stuck with what is in the accounts and more non renter members will have credit pool points competing with regular points.

The reality is there is no solution. Everybody can't book the prime weeks.


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## ronparise (May 23, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> The reality is there is no solution. Everybody can't book the prime weeks.



Thats what Ive been trying to say

the things that they are doing will mean an increased number of owners vs renters at the resort but as you say everybody cant book the prime weeks

I compare it to the lottery. I can buy one ticket and have almost no chance of wining.  or  I could buy 20 tickets to  improve my chances 20x but at  the end of the day I still have almost no chance of winning


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## am1 (May 23, 2016)

Maybe the solution is sales does not tell everyone interested buyer that they can book prime weeks last minute wherever they want.  

Set expectations that can be achieved.  

I think first come first serve and all else that goes with that is very fair.  But overall expectations in 2016 are different.  Being able to book timeshare reservations is a small part of it.


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## Braindead (May 23, 2016)

Club Access makes it worse. Like WM in theory you could have all members trying to book the same resort on the same day.


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## tschwa2 (May 23, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Thats what Ive been trying to say
> 
> the things that they are doing will mean an increased number of owners vs renters at the resort but as you say everybody cant book the prime weeks
> 
> I compare it to the lottery. I can buy one ticket and have almost no chance of wining.  or  I could buy 20 tickets to  improve my chances 20x but at  the end of the day I still have almost no chance of winning



I think the belief is that if you get more reservations out of the hands of the mega renter (let's say one that owns 6 million points) and into small ordinary owners is that you won't end up with 8-12 million points or more of inventory being used (with MF only being paid on 6 million) due to cancel and rebook and upgrades.  And not every small ordinary owner is going for the ultra high reservations. Not every reservation from the mega renter is either but certainly a high percentage is.  Many have so few points they are looking to maximize usage with a combination of off season, mid season, and prime, perhaps paying extra transaction fees and HK fees along the way.  Little owners aren't all calling at the moment the phone lines open for reservations and they aren't giving their points to points managers who are paying workers to find a way to maximize every point.


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## djohn75087 (May 23, 2016)

*no big deal YET!*

I'm sure that mega renters don't have many clients renting our condos more than 10 months ahead of their arrival date. I figure the only weeks being booked that early on a regular basis are for very special weeks. Since I don't want any of these special weeks I've never had a problem getting exactly what I want at 10 months out. If things get to the point that I can't get what I want at 10 months I will probably give what I own back using ovation and I will then find some access points on ebay, but this time I'll be smarter and buy some Worldmark points too. Wish I had thought of that when I bought my first resale accounts half Worldmark and half Wyndham would be perfect!


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## spackler (May 23, 2016)

am1 said:


> Maybe the solution is sales does not tell everyone interested buyer that they can book prime weeks last minute wherever they want.



Some of the blame has to be directed at buyers who don't do 15 minutes of internet research before plopping down $35,000.

Seriously, one of the first links one would see is that Trip Advisor thread.  Almost 400 posts and nearly all are very negative.


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## ronparise (May 23, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> I think the belief is that if you get more reservations out of the hands of the mega renter (let's say one that owns 6 million points) and into small ordinary owners is that you won't end up with 8-12 million points or more of inventory being used (with MF only being paid on 6 million) due to cancel and rebook and upgrades.  And not every small ordinary owner is going for the ultra high reservations. Not every reservation from the mega renter is either but certainly a high percentage is.  Many have so few points they are looking to maximize usage with a combination of off season, mid season, and prime, perhaps paying extra transaction fees and HK fees along the way.  Little owners aren't all calling at the moment the phone lines open for reservations and they aren't giving their points to points managers who are paying workers to find a way to maximize every point.



At the meeting there was a Presidential Reserve/Platinum owner that was complaining that he was losing far too many reservations when doing the cancel/rebook/upgrade thing. His point was that he had paid for this benefit, and now he couldnt count on using it

So its not just the mega owners screwing over the little guy just trying to have a vacation with his family Its other little guys too (yes I consider anything under about 10 million points to be little when compared to the mega renters)

and yes sales is part of the problem by setting expectations too high.. they convince the average owner that he can go where he wants when he wants and he convinces the VIP buyer that he can do it at half price

and of course Im part of the problem too becauseI rub their(the other owners) noses in the reality of it all


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## am1 (May 23, 2016)

spackler said:


> Some of the blame has to be directed at buyers who don't do 15 minutes of internet research before plopping down $35,000.
> 
> Seriously, one of the first links one would see is that Trip Advisor thread.  Almost 400 posts and nearly all are very negative.



They should be the first ones to be blamed.  At least existing owners should.  Wyndham likes them though.


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## CO skier (May 23, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Geoffs big news was that Voyager would be operational by the next annual meeting.


Just another echo from last year and annual meetings dating back to 2011.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226161



Maybe ... someday ... in our lifetimes.


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## Ty1on (May 24, 2016)

CO skier said:


> Just another echo from last year and annual meetings dating back to 2011.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226161
> 
> ...



They seem confident they have it working this time.


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## ronparise (May 24, 2016)

CO skier said:


> Just another echo from last year and annual meetings dating back to 2011.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226161
> 
> ...



True enough but they havent stopped working on it... Its gotta be pretty close, they are looking for folks to beta test it


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## am1 (May 24, 2016)

ronparise said:


> True enough but they havent stopped working on it... Its gotta be pretty close, they are looking for folks to beta test it



Probably not anyone that does too many reservations or they would find the bugs too soon.


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## GT1 (May 24, 2016)

ronparise said:


> True enough but they havent stopped working on it... Its gotta be pretty close, they are looking for folks to beta test it



If I understood correctly, the owners present at the meeting would be among those selected to beta test the system. 

I'll tell you that I scoffed as soon as they said it would be up and running within the year :hysterical:


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## rubbub (May 25, 2016)

So is the intent of Voyager to replace the current on-line reservation system? Beyond the search improvements, 24/7, ARP, etc, are there other improvements they have said it will implement? From reading prior posts it seems like a major concern for a lot of folks is that it might differentiate resale vs. developer points with respect to VIP benefits. One thing that really irks me about the current system is that it does not provide a detailed accounting of points usage.


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## GT1 (May 25, 2016)

rubbub said:


> So is the intent of Voyager to replace the current on-line reservation system? Beyond the search improvements, 24/7, ARP, etc, are there other improvements they have said it will implement? From reading prior posts it seems like a major concern for a lot of folks is that it might differentiate resale vs. developer points with respect to VIP benefits. One thing that really irks me about the current system is that it does not provide a detailed accounting of points usage.



Personally, only if and when this thing rolls out will I be assured of what it will/won't do. It's been the pie in the sky promise for so many years that it's become a legend (in it's own mind)


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## Bigrob (May 25, 2016)

rubbub said:


> So is the intent of Voyager to replace the current on-line reservation system? Beyond the search improvements, 24/7, ARP, etc, are there other improvements they have said it will implement? From reading prior posts it seems like a major concern for a lot of folks is that it might differentiate resale vs. developer points with respect to VIP benefits. One thing that really irks me about the current system is that it does not provide a detailed accounting of points usage.



"Replace" is probably too strong a term, as I believe this is an evolutionary, phased deployment (and some parts of it have already been deployed). The ability to make ARP reservations in the system implies that the system at least is differentiating the points; whether those data will be presented to the user is unknown.


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## staceyeileen (May 25, 2016)

am1 said:


> Probably not anyone that does too many reservations or they would find the bugs too soon.



that's the point of beta testing... to find the bugs...


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## am1 (May 25, 2016)

staceyeileen said:


> that's the point of beta testing... to find the bugs...



You are right but the programmers do not want years of their time and investment to go down the drain right from the start.  If they beta test it with people who are no online 24/7 they will not look as bad.

How many bugs does the current system have?


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## Bigrob (May 25, 2016)

am1 said:


> You are right but the programmers do not want years of their time and investment to go down the drain right from the start.  If they beta test it with people who are no online 24/7 they will not look as bad.
> 
> How many bugs does the current system have?



A sardonic individual might claim we are all beta testers right now, based on the number of bugs still being found in the "stable" platform.


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## Braindead (May 29, 2016)

*Slow down mega-renters*

Wyndham could slow down mega-renters. Here's a few ideas on how.                  1. No cancel - rebook. VIP free upgrade has to match the loss of points on a cancellation. VIPs would get free upgrades at 15 days or less currently.               2. VIPs would get lower point discounts on reservations but get them automatically on all reservation at 10 months or less. Maybe 5 percent for silver 10 for gold 15 for platinum.                                                                             3. Wyndham hates resales but has to give back some benefits to increase their value. Mega renters have accumulated tens of millions of resale points at very low prices. Seems simple to not allow VIP benefits on resales but they haven't accomplished it yet.
Wyndham might be surprised at how much their image would change & increase sales to happy owners & referrals from happy owners!!


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## Bigrob (May 29, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Wyndham could slow down mega-renters. Here's a few ideas on how.                  1. No cancel - rebook. VIP free upgrade has to match the loss of points on a cancellation. VIPs would get free upgrades at 15 days or less currently.               2. VIPs would get lower point discounts on reservations but get them automatically on all reservation at 10 months or less. Maybe 5 percent for silver 10 for gold 15 for platinum.                                                                             3. Wyndham hates resales but has to give back some benefits to increase their value. Mega renters have accumulated tens of millions of resale points at very low prices. Seems simple to not allow VIP benefits on resales but they haven't accomplished it yet.
> Wyndham might be surprised at how much their image would change & increase sales to happy owners & referrals from happy owners!!



Interesting thoughts, but there are flaws in the logic. 

1. Wyndham wants and needs for developer-sold points to be differentiated from reseller-sold points. The differentiation is a big part of the marketing efforts especially to current owners. Reducing VIP owner benefits and simultaneously providing benefits to resale owners would run counter to the differentiation strategy.

2. Every idea for curtailing the utilization of VIP benefits generally has a "work-around" For example, free upgrades at 15 days or less would not eliminate cancel/rebook. Savvy owners would continue to do what they do today to carry reservations into the cancellation window.

3. Taking away benefits from VIP owners is not likely to increase the rate of "happy owner referrals". It is very likely to do exactly the opposite. Owners are upset that they may have overpaid for a benefit; how is reducing that benefit likely to convert them to happy owners?

I do agree with one point you make, however, and that is that Wyndham does have to be careful about taking any actions that would further erode the resale market. There may be a tipping point at which there may be a large number of abandoned ownership interests, leaving a much heavier MF obligation to the remaining owners... thereby creating more abandonment in a vicious circle.


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

1. Give back some benefits maybe everything but the discount on reservations at 10 months or less in my idea. Besides the sales weasels will still lie about the difference like they do .                                                                                                                                 2. i don't know how you would get around the loss of points at 15 day cancellation period. You would already have the 15 percent discount & would loose your points if you cancel a reservation to create the upgrade.                                                                                      3. The platinum/ presidential owner Ron brought up at the meeting will be happier with a 15 percent discount on reservations rather than loosing his family's vacation trying to cancel rebook.                                                                                                                             4. 50 percent discounts are just to much & that is where you mega renters make your profit. Along with upgrades for half the points of a studio Ron ends up with a 2 bedroom.       5. Don't take this personal we are all here to work the system & mega renters are playing by the current rules. I just think if Wyndham really wants to stop some renting they could. Wyndham may just be doing lip service to the upset owners & actually like the mega renter. I have nothing against mega renters using the system to the fullest. I am too!!!!


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## ronparise (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> 1. Give back some benefits maybe everything but the discount on reservations at 10 months or less in my idea. Besides the sales weasels will still lie about the difference like they do .                                                                                                                                 2. i don't know how you would get around the loss of points at 15 day cancellation period. You would already have the 15 percent discount & would loose your points if you cancel a reservation to create the upgrade.                                                                                      3. The platinum/ presidential owner Ron brought up at the meeting will be happier with a 15 percent discount on reservations rather than loosing his family's vacation trying to cancel rebook.                                                                                                                             4. 50 percent discounts are just to much & that is where you mega renters make your profit. Along with upgrades for half the points of a studio Ron ends up with a 2 bedroom.       5. Don't take this personal we are all here to work the system & mega renters are playing by the current rules. I just think if Wyndham really wants to stop some renting they could. Wyndham may just be doing lip service to the upset owners & actually like the mega renter. I have nothing against mega renters using the system to the fullest. I am too!!!!



You are absolutely right.  The 50% discount accounts for a lot of the maga renters profits. And it's why I'm able to  offer rentals cheaper than maintenance fees and still make a profit

Take it away and I'll react by raising my prices where I can and concentrating on the high margin stuff and renting more. My best money makers are weekends that cost me (with the discount) about $350 that I rent for $1200. So $850  profit each.  Take away the discount and upgrades and that same reservation will cost me closer to $800 so only $400 profit. But if I raise my price a little and do twice as many I can make the same money I did before

What I'm saying is that the unintended consequence of going after the mega renters my be more renting at fewer resorts not less


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## ronparise (May 30, 2016)

duplicate post


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

Good points. Wyndham will never be able too stop renting. If you make no profit that means ownership is too expensive for all owners !! But if renters only get 15 percent discount & no cancel/rebook that means the renter has to use 35 percent or more points resulting in mega renters being able to make fewer reservations with current points.Might put mega/renters in the market to buy more points helping resale values. Because no discount for ARP reservations.


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

15 percent would be maximum discount unless free upgrade is available at 15 days or less.


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## ronparise (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Good points. Wyndham will never be able too stop renting. If you make no profit that means ownership is too expensive for all owners !! But if renters only get 15 percent discount & no cancel/rebook that means the renter has to use 35 percent or more points resulting in mega renters being able to make fewer reservations with current points.Might put mega/renters in the market to buy more points helping resale values. Because no discount for ARP reservations.



Sure it will put us in the market to buy more, but you underestimate what we are buying now. Remember Wyndham has set the price at zero with Ovation. all I have to do is offer to pay a few dollars plus the closing costs to make a deal

The real question is what do you think will be accomplished by putting us out of business.  There will still be nearly 500000 owners competing for the best reservations, The chances of snagging one wont improve. There will still be the same number of points chasing those few choice reservations


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## jebloomquist (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Good points. Wyndham will never be able too stop renting. If you make no profit that means ownership is too expensive for all owners !! But if renters only get 15 percent discount & no cancel/rebook that means the renter has to use 35 percent or more points resulting in mega renters being able to make fewer reservations with current points.Might put mega/renters in the market to buy more points helping resale values. Because no discount for ARP reservations.



Buying more points means more maintenance fees for any owner, renting or not. I am not a mega-renter, but if the benefits disappear, I will be selling my contracts, not buying more. I foresee that the resale prices will fall, not rise. I could easily dump 5 million points and still have enough to do my own personal reservations.

If Wyndham were to remove the current Platinum 50% discount and upgrade benefits, it had better grow another foot, because it would be shooting itself in one of them. This world is filled with too many unintended consequences.

Jim


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

jebloomquist said:


> Buying more points means more maintenance fees for any owner, renting or not. I am not a mega-renter, but if the benefits disappear, I will be selling my contracts, not buying more. I foresee that the resale prices will fall, not rise. I could easily dump 5 million points and still have enough to do my own personal reservations.
> 
> If Wyndham were to remove the current Platinum 50% discount and upgrade benefits, it had better grow another foot, because it would be shooting itself in one of them. This world is filled with too many unintended consequences.
> 
> Jim


I never said to put you out of business maybe curtail some new mega/renters from starting & not make it as profitable as it is today. Question for Ron. When you are sitting in the hot tub watching fireworks telling a young couple how you are in the presidential suite for half the points they used on their studio can you keep a straight face without laughing?


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## ronparise (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I never said to put you out of business maybe curtail some new mega/renters from starting & not make it as profitable as it is today. Question for Ron. When you are sitting in the hot tub watching fireworks telling a young couple how you are in the presidential suite for half the points they used on their studio can you keep a straight face without laughing?



I dont use the presidential suite and I dont talk to anyone in the hot tub about what I do.   and the 50% discount is common knowledge, 

Whats upsetting to folks isnt that some of us get discounts, Folks understand and accept that Platinum owners deserve some special treatment for the money they spent on this stuff.  The upsetting thing its that the points can be purchased for next to nothing on the secondary market.

 And I dont laugh at anyone for having spent more than they have to in a Wyndham sales room..... Im actually a little sad for them


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## raygo123 (May 30, 2016)

There may be a way to fix that by not permitting the ability of platinum in particular, but all VIP owners who have resale to credit pool their resale points according to their VIP status.  (Cross accounts)

This would further limit the mega renters ability go back and cancel and rebook a reservation originally using ARP,. Or, recapture reservations that did not rent.  Using resale points.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## jebloomquist (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I never said to put you out of business maybe curtail some new mega/renters from starting & not make it as profitable as it is today. Question for Ron. When you are sitting in the hot tub watching fireworks telling a young couple how you are in the presidential suite for half the points they used on their studio can you keep a straight face without laughing?



When I am sitting in a hot tub with another person, I ask if they are a Wyndham owner. If yes, I say, "welcome." If only renting, I hand them a business card and ask them to check my rates next time. Never would I rub a price into someones face. 

Braindead, I suggest that you stay out of sales.

Jim


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## bendadin (May 30, 2016)

jebloomquist said:


> When I am sitting in a hot tub with another person, I ask if they are a Wyndham owner. If yes, I say, "welcome." If only renting, I hand them a business card and ask them to check my rates next time. Never would I rub a price into someones face.
> 
> Jim



You have business cards? I would have gladly taken one. And here I rent from Redweek.


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

I was joking about the hot tub! Thought I remembered Ron talking about rubbing their nose in it.


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## ronparise (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I was joking about the hot tub! Thought I remembered Ron talking about rubbing their nose in it.



The only noses I rub are the ones that belong to folks that tell me I'm doing something immoral


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

I don't see anything immoral about mega/renting businesses. All of you are self employed business people as far as I know. My hats off to you.Wyndham sets the rules & you follow them nothing immoral about that.  I simply posted a few ideas in post #49 that I think Wyndham could do that might slow down some renting not all if Wyndham really wants to cut down on mega/renting. The owners I feel sorry for are the ones that want out. If a owner paid Wyndham to much for ownership & uses their TS they're not out much. Not everyone pays the same price for a car either. The only questionable business tactic I've read about is soliciting business while at a resort.


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## am1 (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I don't see anything immoral about mega/renting businesses. All of you are self employed business people as far as I know. My hats off to you.Wyndham sets the rules & you follow them nothing immoral about that.  I simply posted a few ideas in post #49 that I think Wyndham could do that might slow down some renting not all if Wyndham really wants to cut down on mega/renting. The owners I feel sorry for are the ones that want out. If a owner paid Wyndham to much for ownership & uses their TS they're not out much. Not everyone pays the same price for a car either. The only questionable business tactic I've read about is soliciting business while at a resort.



Wyndham has started ovation which allows owners that want out to give Wyndham back their deed.  Wyndham then puts the inventory in CWA which is a way for them to easily sell what were mud weeks at retail and it also gives Wyndham control of the board at each resort. It is also possible the resorts are on the hook for some maintenance fees before the points are resold.  

I feel the owners that do not want out but are forced to accept changes because other owners want out.


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

I just think it's sad after paying so much for something it's almost worthless. I can't believe Wyndham proudly puts ovation on the first page online. If a new owner clicks on ovation & finds out their new purchase is worthless the red flags go off & they can't rescind fast enough!!!


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## Braindead (May 30, 2016)

I don't want out. I like the system & have great vacations. Just threw some ideas out.


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## tschwa2 (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I just think it's sad after paying so much for something it's almost worthless. I can't believe Wyndham proudly puts ovation on the first page online. If a new owner clicks on ovation & finds out their new purchase is worthless the red flags go off & they can't rescind fast enough!!!



Many points packages aren't worthless and Wyndham owners could get a few hundred to a few thousand depending on the number of points and MF.  The smart owners are only dumping the mud week stinkers and keeping or selling the rest.  There are probably  a decent number of owners who are using ovations to dump decent to good weeks because they don't know or can't be bothered to find alternatives.  Wyndham should be proud that they are offering an easy way out for all owners with paid off contracts/deeds.  There is no other timeshare company that is or has been accepting even the stinker weeks back for no cost and no hoops to jump through.  Marriott had a buy back which they are currently backing away from and brokered resales but even then they were only taking gold and platinum weeks at most resorts.  If you owned a silver or bronze or equivalent type off season week at most of their resorts, you would be extremely lucky if they allowed a deed back.  

The red flag at  many resorts even those that are currently being sold is that many many weeks are being sold that you can't even give away even when completely paid off.


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## am1 (May 30, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I just think it's sad after paying so much for something it's almost worthless. I can't believe Wyndham proudly puts ovation on the first page online. If a new owner clicks on ovation & finds out their new purchase is worthless the red flags go off & they can't rescind fast enough!!!



It is worthless because people purchase retail do not understand what they are purchasing.  If only people who knew and understood Wyndham and actually wanted a timeshare purchased retail the market would stabilize.  But who do you blame Wyndham for trying to make as much money as they want, people who normally would spend more time buying a tv then the timeshare they just purchased or the government that allows this to go on.


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## jjmanthei05 (May 30, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> I don't see any way of determining how significant it will be. It seems to me that the use year gimmick isn't as clean as canceled pool points returning. Also, points managers are stuck with what is in the accounts and more non renter members will have credit pool points competing with regular points.
> 
> The reality is there is no solution. Everybody can't book the prime weeks.



At some point with credit pool points you have to use as many if not more points in a year than you have for that year or you will lose points. With the multiple use year canceled points they could roll points forever. I have hear of some renters that had 2-3 million points worth of contracts in their account and 20+ million points because they would only use 20% of their points a year. This may take a few years to work out but it will make it better. 

Aside note is it will save wyndham money as well because now you can't credit pool for 3 years then cancel and put the points in RCI for 2 more years. Once they go in credit pool they can't go to RCI.

Jason


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## am1 (May 30, 2016)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Aside note is it will save wyndham money as well because now you can't credit pool for 3 years then cancel and put the points in RCI for 2 more years. Once they go in credit pool they can't go to RCI.
> 
> Jason



Unless they go back to regular use year points.  This has been happening to me  and even with a note from a supervisor to put them back into the credit pool it still takes 20 minutes.  Eventually I will pay the $39 again and credit pool them for a date further out.


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## Roger830 (May 31, 2016)

jjmanthei05 said:


> At some point with credit pool points you have to use as many if not more points in a year than you have for that year or you will lose points. With the multiple use year canceled points they could roll points forever. I have hear of some renters that had 2-3 million points worth of contracts in their account and 20+ million points because they would only use 20% of their points a year. This may take a few years to work out but it will make it better.
> 
> Jason



It's not clear to me that anything is better. Regular use year points are credit pooled each year, so the early ones are used first by the system and the later year pooled points will still remain available, similar to accumulated points. 

The problem as I see it is even more players will be pushing forward points via cancel-rebook as well as those those using multiple use year accumulation. These players are quick at obtaining bookings and with the additional points made available in future years will further squeeze out Joe Six-Pack from obtaining a decent reservation.   

On RCI, it's my understanding that many of the points transferred to RCI are never used.


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## Braindead (May 31, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Wyndham could slow down mega-renters. Here's a few ideas on how.                  1. No cancel - rebook. VIP free upgrade has to match the loss of points on a cancellation. VIPs would get free upgrades at 15 days or less currently.               2. VIPs would get lower point discounts on reservations but get them automatically on all reservation at 10 months or less. Maybe 5 percent for silver 10 for gold 15 for platinum.                                                                             3. Wyndham hates resales but has to give back some benefits to increase their value. Mega renters have accumulated tens of millions of resale points at very low prices. Seems simple to not allow VIP benefits on resales but they haven't accomplished it yet.
> Wyndham might be surprised at how much their image would change & increase sales to happy owners & referrals from happy owners!!


I threw out an idea to get rid of cancel/rebook in post #49


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## regatta333 (May 31, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I threw out an idea to get rid of cancel/rebook in post #49



They could easily get rid of the cancel/rebook by not making the cancelled reservation available until 7am the next morning (this is how it was in the past).  This would make the risk of losing the reservation unacceptably high, in my opinion.  

This would also make it easier on the rest of us to snag a cancelled reservation, which has become much more of a pain.  In the past, I would just check first thing every morning for the reservation I wanted.  If not there, try again the next day.  Now, you are having to try dozens of times a day.  Most recently, I was trying to book 3 nights in Honolulu for my son and his girl friend.  They had a back-up hotel reservation.  Ultimately, I was able to book it around 20 day before check-in, but I had been checking dozens of times per day for several weeks, which was a real pain.  I much preferred being able to check once every morning.


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## am1 (May 31, 2016)

Wyndham got away from the reservations going back into the system the next morning for a reason.  Probably too hard on the system. There is also a day lag time for everyone in being able to book reservations that were cancelled.  How many rooms would sit empty because of that?

I am sure thinks have changed but things coming back the next day never stopped me from doing cancel/rebook.  Just limited me to 1 or 2 day.  But would give me my life back.

Where most people go wrong is thinking searching dozen of times a day is a lot.  If one really wants a reservation it should be hundreds of times a day.  

Also a few tricks in searching goes a long way in getting results.


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## ronparise (May 31, 2016)

regatta333 said:


> They could easily get rid of the cancel/rebook by not making the cancelled reservation available until 7am the next morning (this is how it was in the past).  This would make the risk of losing the reservation unacceptably high, in my opinion.
> 
> This would also make it easier on the rest of us to snag a cancelled reservation, which has become much more of a pain.  In the past, I would just check first thing every morning for the reservation I wanted.  If not there, try again the next day.  Now, you are having to try dozens of times a day.  Most recently, I was trying to book 3 nights in Honolulu for my son and his girl friend.  They had a back-up hotel reservation.  Ultimately, I was able to book it around 20 day before check-in, but I had been checking dozens of times per day for several weeks, which was a real pain.  I much preferred being able to check once every morning.



I routinely cancel at 11:44 pm and rebook the next morning in my estimation no more or less risk than at any other time


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## Roger830 (May 31, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I threw out an idea to get rid of cancel/rebook in post #49



Wyndham doesn't want to get rid of cancel/rebook. It's a terrific sales tool to sell more points. I talked to retail buyers at resorts that are very happy with their VIP membership.


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## am1 (May 31, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> Wyndham doesn't want to get rid of cancel/rebook. It's a terrific sales tool to sell more points. I talked to retail buyers at resorts that are very happy with their VIP membership.



My thoughts exactly.  One of the better deals in retail timeshares.  The buyer is actually getting something that is different then buying resale.


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## Bigrob (May 31, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I just think it's sad after paying so much for something it's almost worthless. I can't believe Wyndham proudly puts ovation on the first page online. If a new owner clicks on ovation & finds out their new purchase is worthless the red flags go off & they can't rescind fast enough!!!



You are correct. They can't rescind fast enough. Because by the time they get online access, the rescission period is over.


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## joestein (May 31, 2016)

I would just like them to reinstate transfer of points.

They could just allow transfer of points between family members/friends if that would limit points purchased by Mega renters.

Maybe everybody can transfer points back/forth to two accounts.


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## am1 (May 31, 2016)

joestein said:


> They could just allow transfer of points between family members/friends if that would limit points purchased by Mega renters.
> 
> Maybe everybody can transfer points back/forth to two accounts.



And if I have no family or friends? 

I would like it if owners could transfer points within their own accounts.  But that would go against the 10 nightly unit limit.


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## buckor (May 31, 2016)

am1 said:


> It is worthless because people purchase retail do not understand what they are purchasing.  If only people who knew and understood Wyndham and actually wanted a timeshare purchased retail the market would stabilize.  But who do you blame Wyndham for trying to make as much money as they want, people who normally would spend more time buying a tv then the timeshare they just purchased or the government that allows this to go on.


I have to say that one cannot blame the government for an individual's bad choice. The government has already stepped in to regulate the practice of selling...as long as both sides follow those regulations the government is not to blame.

Honestly, let's place blame where it belongs..on the individual. And I say that knowing that just back in January I went into a TS presentation saying I would not purchase anything. I came out with a signed contract (which I rescinded, thanks to government regulations). However, if I had not rescinded I am the one responsible for my purchase. While, yes, I agree, the pressure is high at the presentations, the individual ALWAYS has the right to say no.

Just my $.02.


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## am1 (May 31, 2016)

buckor said:


> I have to say that one cannot blame the government for an individual's bad choice. The government has already stepped in to regulate the practice of selling...as long as both sides follow those regulations the government is not to blame.
> 
> Honestly, let's place blame where it belongs..on the individual. And I say that knowing that just back in January I went into a TS presentation saying I would not purchase anything. I came out with a signed contract (which I rescinded, thanks to government regulations). However, if I had not rescinded I am the one responsible for my purchase. While, yes, I agree, the pressure is high at the presentations, the individual ALWAYS has the right to say no.
> 
> Just my $.02.



Overall I feel the same way.


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## Braindead (May 31, 2016)

Agree. Sometimes it's easier to sign & then rescind to get out of the presentation!


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## Cdn Gal (Jun 1, 2016)

Thank you Ron for sharing your insights for us all by attending the meeting!  It is very much appreciated


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