# RCI increases for Points Transactions!!!



## Cayuga (Dec 1, 2005)

I never got the email from RCI announcing the new points costs for transactions. Maybe they didn't want all of the victims to get the word at the same time. So when I read a TUG thread that mentioned such changes, I called a vacation guide myself. Apparently, it will now cost $99 instead of $79 for a 5-7 day reservation. I was told by the same VG that this is the first increase since the points program was introduced a few years ago. 
Okay..I can generally live with that, however, the other increases are outrageous. For a 1-2 night stay, the fee will now go to $49.00 instead of $19.00 per night! 
And if that wasn't enough, the increase that particularly bothers me is the $26.00 fee to do a Points for Deposit (PFD)!!! It used to be free!  Tuggers wondered for years how long RCI would keep this benefit. Well now, here is the answer:some corporate wizard has turned it into a significant new income stream. I think we can consider it permanent from here on!
I was just getting to appreciate the Points program and its possibilities. But I don't know how long the economics of this whole timeshare game will continue to make sense. Without any real competition, this modern day "robber baron" (RCI) can,at will, pick us clean with increases like this in the future.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 1, 2005)

*I knew it would happen eventually....*

But, I thought they would charge $49 for PFD instead of $26.   

I think the price of Christmas Mountain Village UDIs just took a huge hit.

Also, I think there was cheering coming out of North Carolina today.  This will help to reduce the crossover trades that our friend Carolinian has been loathing for years.

RCI really is milking the exchange cow.  Keep raising prices until nobody exchanges anymore.  That leaves them more inventory for their rental business.

All this will do is speed the process of resort group formation that completely bypasses exchange companies.


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## timeos2 (Dec 1, 2005)

*Blame Boca for the PFD fee*

He brought it up a few months back (grin). 

The upsides are that $26 isn't going to hurt anyone and that institutionalizes PFD as an ongoing feature.  I was worried they might drop it in the future and for me it is the most compelling reason to be in RCI Points.  Once it is a revenue generator it is unlikely to go away. I just hope they don't get crazy with the future pricing.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 1, 2005)

John,

I told you I submitted a patent for the PFD deposit fee.  So, RCI will be owing me 2% of all fees collected.  They just don't know it yet.


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## CaliDave (Dec 1, 2005)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> The upsides are that $26 isn't going to hurt anyone



$26.00, that just doubled the cost of Bruce's vacations 

Maybe they've had a slowdown or stabilization in points conversions and figured it time to start charging fees that they had always planned on charging. It was like the developer subsidy.
It's much easier to get people to convert when you can dangle low exchange fees in front of them.

I think its just part of the cycle. 
2006 they will raise weeks membership fees
2007 raise points membership fees
2008 raise weeks exchange fees
2009 raise points exchanges 

So as long as RCI can keep the same number of exchanges, they will keep the profit growth rate going every year.


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## RonaldCol (Dec 1, 2005)

*Ouch!*

I own several UDI Cottages myself so I have to factor that into my cost of RCI points. A red week deposited into RCI points creates 38,000 RCI points. Aside from the standard cleanng charge of $48 for the unit, the $26 cost for now depositing a week implemented by RCI averages out to an additional $0.0006842 cents. My total cost for a deposited week is $48 plus $26, or $74 for 38,000 points. That comes out to be $0.001948 cents per RCI point credited.

Yes, ouch, my cost per point has gone up!

Unfortunately, it has also gone up for everybody else.


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## brucecz (Dec 1, 2005)

Boca, you must have posted this before you phoned me.

If it was $100 for a deposit then I might scream a bit and then like you do more deposits with the other exchange companies.

As I just told you over the phone we do about 30 to 40 mostly white week CMV UDI  RCI Point  deposits a year, and about 20 or more CMV UDI rentals a year. Our average rental price per week averages about $40 more per week than 2 years ago so increased our rental profit   by least $800 last year. 

So our cost went up $750 to $1,000 a year if we keep doing the same amount of deposits for RCI Points.

So now using 3 white weeks to make 2  Bright RCI Point red weeks that increase will raise our out of pocket costs to about  $225. per RCI Points  bright red week exchange if not counting any of our CMV UDI rental profits and  if we do not do any 90 day exchanges, which  up to this point we have not bothered to do.

This increase would raise our cost to fly RT to Hawaii using 3-4 white weeks per ticket from about $199 -$250 to $277-$350 per ticket. 

Am I happy about this raise, certainly not. Do I exspect more increases down the road? Yes I do untill they come close  for most owners in total cost for a regular RCI Weeks exchange. 

That increase may stop the more experianced Tuggers from getting into the RCI Points program and the other Tug RCI Points owners to use other exchange companies instead of RCI Points.

But like I told you over the phone the future new RCI Points buyers will not know when they buy that this cost was not always there so they will not be upset about it like the average TUG RCI Points owner would.

We Tuggers are a very minute percentage of the Timeshare owners.

Boca IMHO  this is one of the times I think you may be wrong about how it will affect their rental bussines, as I think it will for a while cut down on the amount of Point deposits.

Bruce

PS  After doing about 15 minutes of thinking I have come up with a way of keeping our Total cost per RCI Point exchange almost the same and reducing our costs increased timeshare costs by banking white weeks 90 days out instead of over 45 days out like we mostly do now. That will give us one thrid more points for each $48-$50 CMV UDI week which means that two bright weeks RCI Point exchanges will only cost   about $20 more total for both red week RCI Point exchanges.

I will give you a call asap after posting this PS  





			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> But, I thought they would charge $49 for PFD instead of $26.
> 
> I think the price of Christmas Mountain Village UDIs just took a huge hit.
> 
> ...


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## LynnW (Dec 1, 2005)

The increases are not showing on their website yet. I also can accept the $99 but $49 per night is outrageous! Have never used the points for deposit as we always use an alternate exchange company or go to our home resort. What is the increase for exchanging into your home resort within the priority period?

Lynn


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## bogey21 (Dec 1, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> ...the increase that particularly bothers me is the $26.00 fee to do a Points for Deposit (PFD)!!! It used to be free!  Tuggers wondered for years how long RCI would keep this benefit. Well now, here is the answer:some corporate wizard has turned it into a significant new income stream. I think we can consider it permanent from here on!



From my standpoint the good news (Program Continuation) outweighs the bad news (the $26 Fee).  PFD coupled with a low cost entry vehicle into RCI Points is what makes my Points Account work.  

GEORGE


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 1, 2005)

*It's my fault that points transactions went up because I just joined!*

You wash your car, it rains.  More of us join points, the price goes up.

I thought we were going to save a lot of money with points exchanges at $79.00, instead of the $149.  Admittedly, the points exchanges are still less, but for how long?  We have been RCI members for 20 years and have seen drastic increases in the last three years, from $119 to $149 for exchanges.  They used to charge that $119 for booking online, but they dropped that discount about two years ago.  

I just hope the developers have a fit over the increases.  Part of the sales pitch at VV at Pkwy was the comparison between weeks exchange fees vs. points.  That was one of the pluses that sold us on points.  We thought about it after the presentation and decided to try Australia points.


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## Dani (Dec 1, 2005)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> You wash your car, it rains.  More of us join points, the price goes up.



  Ain 't that the truth!!!  In a way...as some have said, it's a good thing that they have committed to the PFD program.  On the other hand, $49 per night for an exchange fee    That sounds like it MUST be wrong.


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## Cayuga (Dec 1, 2005)

Dani said:
			
		

> Ain 't that the truth!!!  In a way...as some have said, it's a good thing that they have committed to the PFD program.  On the other hand, $49 per night for an exchange fee    That sounds like it MUST be wrong.




Dani;

More accurately, the fee is $49.00 for 1 or 2 nights, then each additional night is $19.00 up to a total of 4 nights. From day 5 on, the $99.00 then kicks in. Or look at it this way; $49 for one night; $25.00 average per day for 2 nights; about $23.00 per day for 3 nights; about $22.00 per day for 4 nights;and about $14-$20 per day for 5-7 nights.
Obviously, the longer stays are more economic. But one of benefits used to promote the points program was the flexibility of short stays(1-4 days). While not budget breaking, these kinds of increases might actually discourage short stay considerations, especially if they continue to rise dramatically.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 1, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> Dani;
> 
> More accurately, the fee is $49.00 for 1 or 2 nights, then each additional night is $19.00 up to a total of 4 nights. From day 5 on, the $99.00 then kicks in. Or look at it this way; $49 for one night; $25.00 average per day for 2 nights; about $23.00 per day for 3 nights; about $22.00 per day for 4 nights;and about $14-$20 per day for 5-7 nights.
> Obviously, the longer stays are more economic. But one of benefits used to promote the points program was the flexibility of short stays(1-4 days). While not budget breaking, these kinds of increases might actually discourage short stay considerations, especially if they continue to rise dramatically.



Couple the $49 exchange fee with the extra housekeeping fees charged by resorts and short stays are no longer economical.

And, the $26 PFD fee significantly hurts the economics of PFD.   

This is very good for the mini-systems.  I'll be using them far more now than RCI points.


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## bogey21 (Dec 1, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> Dani;
> 
> More accurately, the fee is $49.00 for 1 or 2 nights...



Another problem with the short stays is the Housekeeping Fees charged by some resorts.  I was recently nailed with a $40 Housekeeping Fee at Vacation Village at Bonaventure for a 1 night stay.  Although this is the first time this has happened to me, it is disconcerting.

GEORGE


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## Jimster (Dec 1, 2005)

*rci*

The thing that makes this all the more loathsome is that there is never a word about WHY costs must increase.  I feel very sorry for RCI (Cendent )because I bet their profit levels are probably a little lower than the oil companies.  Maybe this change will boost them over the top.  BTW there is a similar analogy to this whole mess.  It's called killing the goose that laid the golden egg.  Personally, I plan to increase my involvement with other TS exchange companies that actually try to facilitate exchanges.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 2, 2005)

Jimster said:
			
		

> Personally, I plan to increase my involvement with other TS exchange companies that actually try to facilitate exchanges.



Very well put.


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## brucecz (Dec 2, 2005)

I called RCI Points last night and the VC said the the $26 deposit charge would start as of January 1, 2006.

Seeing we do mostly full week exchanges the increased costs of the RCI partial week has very litle effect on our using RCI Points exchanges while raiding the RCI weeks side.

Out of about 20 RCI Point exchanges only one was at a RCI Points resort for 4 day week end costing about $40 for  the 19,000 RCI Points used plus the RCI Points exchane fee that maybe was about $68 (?) at the new RCI Points resort in Wisconsin Dells

I guess we also will take a closer into other exchange companies and see what they offer. We all should be able check them out on http://www.timeshareforums.com because those other exchange companies are represented by their own representives on that site.

One advantage for us is that our CMV UDI;s are also afillated wilth II and RCI weeks.

I will like another Tugger will be also thinking about putting some white but mostly lower earning RCI Point Blue weeks into II for their 60 day deals and into RCI's 45 day deals.

Will check with other exchange companies to see what our red, white and blue weeks might bring.

Bruce


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## Cayuga (Dec 2, 2005)

brucecz said:
			
		

> I called RCI Points last night and the VC said the the $26 deposit charge would start as of January 1, 2006.
> 
> Seeing we do mostly full week exchanges the increased costs of the RCI partial week has very litle effect on our using RCI Points exchanges while raiding the RCI weeks side.
> 
> ...



****************************************************
Bruce;

Do you think "Points" is suffering from the "South Africa phenomenon"? Although it was/could never be proven conclusively, did TUG comments over the years help to diminish the relative trading power of those SA units?

Could we be revealing too much about how we manage the system to our advantage? Many people, and some who don't have our best 
interest in mind, follow this forum. While TUG may represent numerically a small percentage of the timeshare population, it is perhaps the most astute ,active, and influential  constituency. 

From a corporate point of view, if I wanted to know what areas to plug,control,or change, this forum  would be very helpful in recognizing those opportunities. 
Just some thoughts! But maybe I'm too much of a conspiracy theorist!


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## brucecz (Dec 2, 2005)

December 1, 2005, 05:09 PM    #4  
BocaBum99 
TUG Member


BBS Reg. Date: Jun 7, 05
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 902  John,

I told you I submitted a patent for the PFD deposit fee. So, RCI will be owing me 2% of all fees collected. They just don't know it yet. 

********************************************************* 

Cayuga, as you can plainly see by Bocs's post above that it is my   friend Boca's fault. It is 100% his fault. We just better hope that he does not go to work for Cendant-RCI as a consultant who gets paid on the percent of profit he helps generate.


But seriously without any proof I am not sure.  Maybe bootleg has an answer to your question.  But I would think RCI monitors this site for their benifit.

But it seems Cendant-RCI   based on its RCI Weeks track record is not shy on making large price  increases to us the RCI members, to  increase their profits for their stock holders.

But IMHO I think RCI gave a moderately low cost price  to RCI Points to get a program rolling, but like most companies once they feel they have you hooked and committed then they  raise their prices to increase profits.

Cendant certainly has raised    prices on the RCI weeks side far more than the inflasion(?) rate since they bought RCI.

I wonder how they desided that $26 was what they going to charge?

Bruce


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## CaliDave (Dec 2, 2005)

RCI should be lowering costs. 
With all the internet transactions, it tremendously lowers the cost. 
Or they should have Internet exchanges at $99 and phone exchanges at $149
Free guest certs.. which surely don't take someone $49 worth of labor, especially when you get the GC online

The IT team can't be making much.. with as bad as the webite is, they've got to be making minimum wage .


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## Sandy (Dec 2, 2005)

For years I urged  and questioned RCI about why they did not lower costs (HA!!!) since the more people who use their system, the less their costs are. 

I have been an RCI  member since 1980, and watched our costs rise over the years. I recall when it only cost $49 to exchange!!!

With the sophistication of a computer network, the costs for a corporation SHOULD go down progressively the more people use it.  As we know, that is not the way it works for corporate America. 

For each of us. the key is learning how to best use the system whatever it is. Or to avoid using it if that works to our best advantage. 

I don't know what the best solution is. When I learned  about the South African units here on TUG, I studied it and then bought some, with the intended goal of reducing my overall TS costs. 

When I learned about the points program using Australia as the base, also here on TUG, I also bought to be able to combine the weeks and points trading capabilities.  So far, so good. 

I am committed to exchanging, but I am also very thankful for everything I have learned here on TUG that has enhanced my timesharing experience. 

I know so many timesharing owners who do not have a clue to the conversations we have here on TUG, and the sad fact it that they don't even want to know.  As a result, they overpay for the timeshare when they buy retail, they rarely use the vacations that they have, they never find out how to best trade, and they make so many more unnecessary mistakes by avoiding information.  Unfortunately, these are some family members and friends. 

So, I thank TUG because I am secure that we will find out how to stay ahead of whatever trends may come, including the RCI whims and profit goals. 

This is just MHO.


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## Cayuga (Dec 3, 2005)

Sandy said:
			
		

> For years I urged  and questioned RCI about why they did not lower costs (HA!!!) since the more people who use their system, the less their costs are.



Sandy,

You are absolutely right! Also, computerization and the internet should have reduced their costs substantially over the years! Also, how many times have we called RCI and got a VC who sounds like the're in some foreign country! A lot of the operations aren't even located in the U.S..They have been outsourced to areas like South Asia, Latin America.etc! You can bet they are not being paid close to what a domestic worker would get!

This has become a true cash machine for Cendant, and it's being milked for all that its worth.We can debate the economic impact of a transaction increase here or there. However, it is the overall principle of an industry largely dominated by one entity that is troublesome to me. 

Fiscally, Cendant's corporate track record over the years is as predatory and monopolizing as any that I've seen historically. Is this why they are "restructuring" operations into two or three major service groups? It sounds like also a move to camouflage the full scope of their increasing domination of the travel/vacation business in the U.S.

Perhaps timeshare users at this point need to form a political action group of some type to protect themselves as a class. As long as we continue to think we are just individuals engaged in largely superfluous and unimportant extracurricular activities, we'll never be motivated to collectively protect our economic rights. This industry desparately needs some real oversight and regulation, up and down the entire ladder, and not just RCI/Cendant.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 3, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> Sandy,
> 
> You are absolutely right! Also, computerization and the internet should have reduced their costs substantially over the years! Also, how many times have we called RCI and got a VC who sounds like the're in some foreign country! A lot of the operations aren't even located in the U.S..They have been outsourced to areas like South Asia, Latin America.etc! You can bet they are not being paid close to what a domestic worker would get!
> 
> ...



I guess you haven't heard that Cendant is breaking up into 4 different companies.   They are not a monopoly and they have real competition.  By becoming a big conglomerate of travel and real estate, they actually reduced the value of the company, so they are breaking it up.

Regarding profit maximization, that's what ALL companies try to do.  Some companies are better than others at the PR campaign to make you believe they care a whole lot about you.  Don't get me wrong, they do care about customers.  They just care about profits (and their own bonuses) more.  

These ideas you have for PACs and more oversight and/or regulation are not the answer.  Believe it or not, the real answer is much easier than that.  All YOU (or any of us for that matter) need to do is pick the exchange companies that best meets your needs.  The rest will take care of itself.  That's the beauty of a competitive, free market.   The invisible hand of capitalism will keep the profit maximizers in check better than any government agency can.


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## Walt (Dec 3, 2005)

*We all want that Dream*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I guess you haven't heard that Cendant is breaking up into 4 different companies.   They are not a monopoly and they have real competition.  By becoming a big conglomerate of travel and real estate, they actually reduced the value of the company, so they are breaking it up.
> 
> Regarding profit maximization, that's what ALL companies try to do.  Some companies are better than others at the PR campaign to make you believe they care a whole lot about you.  Don't get me wrong, they do care about customers.  They just care about profits (and their own bonuses) more.
> 
> These ideas you have for PACs and more oversight and/or regulation are not the answer.  Believe it or not, the real answer is much easier than that.  All YOU (or any of us for that matter) need to do is pick the exchange companies that best meets your needs.  The rest will take care of itself.  That's the beauty of a competitive, free market.   The invisible hand of capitalism will keep the profit maximizers in check better than any government agency can.



Don’t you think the timeshare industry has done such a good job of Smoke and Mirrors (an illusion to convince and manipulate) that they can tells us anything and we believe them because we want to believe them.

We are all looking for that Dream Vacation (an illusion) that we want to be hoodwinked into buying that dream.

Timesharing is become more about show than substance.


Walt


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## Fern Modena (Dec 3, 2005)

I just tried to do a PFD transfer of a couple of SA weeks.  I was told that since they are 2006 weeks, I can't do it until 2006.  I never had that problem before.  So now it will cost to transfer them


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## CaliDave (Dec 3, 2005)

Fern Modena said:
			
		

> I just tried to do a PFD transfer of a couple of SA weeks. I was told that since they are 2006 weeks, I can't do it until 2006. I never had that problem before. So now it will cost to transfer them



Thats ridiculous.. So what if you own week 1 2006.. you can't deposit it?


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## Fern Modena (Dec 3, 2005)

I emailed feedback@rci.com to see what they say, and/or if they will help me by transferring the weeks.

The VG said it only applied to SA weeks, but it still makes no sense, cause as you say, anyone owning weeks one thru about 14 would then be too late for full credit upon deposit.

Fern


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## taffy19 (Dec 3, 2005)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> These ideas you have for PACs and more oversight and/or regulation are not the answer. Believe it or not, the real answer is much easier than that. *All YOU (or any of us for that matter) need to do is pick the exchange companies that best meets your needs. The rest will take care of itself.* *That's the beauty of a competitive, free market. The invisible hand of capitalism will keep the profit maximizers in check better than any government agency can.*


Let's keep it this way.


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## taffy19 (Dec 3, 2005)

Walt said:
			
		

> Don’t you think the timeshare industry has done such a good job of Smoke and Mirrors (an illusion to convince and manipulate) that they can tells us anything and we believe them because we want to believe them.
> 
> *We are all looking for that Dream Vacation (an illusion) that we want to be hoodwinked into buying that dream.*
> 
> ...


I agree but most newbies have to find out the hard way too like we did.  I only hope that people read here before they buy. It is possible today if they only search a little bit.


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## taffy19 (Dec 3, 2005)

CaliDave said:
			
		

> Thats ridiculous.. So what if you own week 1 2006.. you can't deposit it?


Why give them to RCI if there are Independents who will take these weeks?  You do not believe how many emails we receive from RCI asking us to deposit.  No way will we deposit weeks if RCI is renting them out.  Period.


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## Cayuga (Dec 3, 2005)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I guess you haven't heard that Cendant is breaking up into 4 different companies.   They are not a monopoly and they have real competition.  By becoming a big conglomerate of travel and real estate, they actually reduced the value of the company, so they are breaking it up.
> 
> Regarding profit maximization, that's what ALL companies try to do.  Some companies are better than others at the PR campaign to make you believe they care a whole lot about you.  Don't get me wrong, they do care about customers.  They just care about profits (and their own bonuses) more.
> 
> These ideas you have for PACs and more oversight and/or regulation are not the answer.  Believe it or not, the real answer is much easier than that.  All YOU (or any of us for that matter) need to do is pick the exchange companies that best meets your needs.  The rest will take care of itself.  That's the beauty of a competitive, free market.   The invisible hand of capitalism will keep the profit maximizers in check better than any government agency can.



**************************************
BocaBum;

There is an old saying that goes something like this:"rattlesnakes don't commit suicide." Cendant is not  "breaking up." It is restructuring its corporate holdings to best position itself for the road ahead. And no, they are not a classic monopoly (yet), but their practices are "monopoly-like" because of the disproportionate influence they have in the industry. Except for perhaps Interval, the rest of the field is a useful but largely side show. In fact, it is in RCI's best interest to keep this appearance of competition so that it stays difficult to accuse of them of being monopolistic.

There is also the old story that Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought about "western civilization." Paraphrasing a bit, his reponse was " I think it would be a good idea." Likewise, a "competitive,free market" has been largely a capitalist myth. It's like our time honored notions of "democracy" in this country.

There is hardly a business sector in this country that has not required, when they've reached some level of maturity, appropriate regulation and oversight to keep it righteous. Karl Marx's critique of capitalism is useful here but I don't have time to fully expound on it!

As far as the "invisible hand of capitalism keeping the profit maximizers in check", I have no idea what that means. Over the last few months, I'm sure you've noticed, we saw an unprecedented run up in gas prices. Exxon/Mobil (now one company) set a corporate record for profits in a fiscal quarter. This occured despite a so-called shortage of supplies and/or alleged disruptions in refining capacity. It was so obscene, even pro-business Congress felt compelled to stage some show hearings to make it look like our government was protecting us from these predatory forces.

But you are right in one regard, the answers do lie with us. If we stopped buying gas for a short period time and carpooled, took public transportation, etc. a profound message would be sent to those who seek to take advantage of us. But we live in a culture of fear and individuality where the principle of "divide and conquer" works so well.


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## JudyS (Dec 3, 2005)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> ...These ideas you have for PACs and more oversight and/or regulation are not the answer.  Believe it or not, the real answer is much easier than that.  All YOU (or any of us for that matter) need to do is pick the exchange companies that best meets your needs.  The rest will take care of itself.  That's the beauty of a competitive, free market.   The invisible hand of capitalism will keep the profit maximizers in check better than any government agency can.



In theory, competition should force exchange companies to charge reasonable prices and offer good customer service.  In practice, this will only happen if the average timeshare owner knows that alternative exchange companies exist -- and I don't see that happening any time soon.

I doubt that any sort of government regulation is going to help timeshare owners out with the exchange companies.  It's not that I believe government regulation never works, it's that timeshare owners don't have anywhere near enough influence as a group to get regulations enacted in their favor.

Now, it does seem to me that there is one way timeshare owners could get some control over Cendant's new spinoff company (containing resort rentals and RCI), and that's if enough timeshare owners bought stock in the new company that will control RCI.  It sounds like this company will have a market capitalization of about $200 million, but presumably most of the stock will be owned by institutional investors who pay little attention to the interal workings of the company.  If 10,000 timeshare owners each bought $2,000 worth of stock, timeshare owners might have a big say in how RCI was run.  We have over 8,000 registered users on this board, and I'd certainly be willing to buy in if others did.  Heck, if we got enough timeshare owners together, we could run RCI.

(As an aside, isn't it interesting that Cendant's spinoff plan calls for RCI and Cendant's resort rentals to be part of the same company, rather than putting them into different companies?)


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## bogey21 (Dec 3, 2005)

Sandy said:
			
		

> For each of us. the key is learning how to best use the system whatever it is. Or to avoid using it if that works to our best advantage.
> .



Well Said!!

GEORGE


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## taffy19 (Dec 4, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> **************************************
> As far as the "invisible hand of capitalism keeping the profit maximizers in check", I have no idea what that means. Over the last few months, I'm sure you've noticed, we saw an unprecedented run up in gas prices. Exxon/Mobil (now one company) set a corporate record for profits in a fiscal quarter. This occured despite a so-called shortage of supplies and/or alleged disruptions in refining capacity. It was so obscene, even pro-business Congress felt compelled to stage some show hearings to make it look like our government was protecting us from these predatory forces


 
Have you heard of the big, secretive "hedge funds"? They may be the cause of all this but we do not know what is going on behind the scenes really and it may be "Multi National" too just like the companies, that are pushing "globalization".


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 4, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> **************************************
> BocaBum;
> 
> There is an old saying that goes something like this:"rattlesnakes don't commit suicide." Cendant is not  "breaking up." It is restructuring its corporate holdings to best position itself for the road ahead. And no, they are not a classic monopoly (yet), but their practices are "monopoly-like" because of the disproportionate influence they have in the industry. Except for perhaps Interval, the rest of the field is a useful but largely side show. In fact, it is in RCI's best interest to keep this appearance of competition so that it stays difficult to accuse of them of being monopolistic.



That is wrong.  Cendant is breaking up into different companies with different stock tickers, different boards of directors and different management teams.

The bottom line is that each individual is free to leave RCI and go somewhere else if they so choose.  Most RCI members appear to be happy.  I know about all of the practices they are pursuing and I still use them.  That means I get value out of the system.  So, do others.

If people are getting ripped off by RCI, it's because THEY choose to not be educated about it.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 4, 2005)

JudyS said:
			
		

> In theory, competition should force exchange companies to charge reasonable prices and offer good customer service.  In practice, this will only happen if the average timeshare owner knows that alternative exchange companies exist -- and I don't see that happening any time soon.
> 
> I doubt that any sort of government regulation is going to help timeshare owners out with the exchange companies.  It's not that I believe government regulation never works, it's that timeshare owners don't have anywhere near enough influence as a group to get regulations enacted in their favor.
> 
> ...



Judy,

Two things.  First of all, it is the average timeshare owners accountability to be educated about the products they own.  If they don't get educated with free public material such as exists here on TUG, then that is their freedom to do so.  If, all of a sudden, the average timesharer decided to get educated, things would change very quickly.  Since that is not likely to happen, RCI's activities will likely continue.

Second, forget about buying RCI back.  It would be easier and cheaper to start your own exchange company alternative.  And, you would have a chance at changing the fundamentally flawed weeks exchange model.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 4, 2005)

Cayuga said:
			
		

> **************************************
> BocaBum;
> 
> There is also the old story that Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought about "western civilization." Paraphrasing a bit, his reponse was " I think it would be a good idea." Likewise, a "competitive,free market" has been largely a capitalist myth. It's like our time honored notions of "democracy" in this country.
> ...



I guess you didn't hear the news.  Gorbachev tore down that wall.


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## Cayuga (Dec 4, 2005)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> That is wrong.  Cendant is breaking up into different companies with different stock tickers, different boards of directors and different management teams.
> 
> The bottom line is that each individual is free to leave RCI and go somewhere else if they so choose.  Most RCI members appear to be happy.  I know about all of the practices they are pursuing and I still use them.  That means I get value out of the system.  So, do others.
> 
> If people are getting ripped off by RCI, it's because THEY choose to not be educated about it.



Boca;

Cendant's "breaking up" is an old ploy. Go read the history of The Standard Oil Company and other corporate goliaths.
As far as "RCI members appear to be happy." perhaps your right. They do APPEAR to be satisfied, because many are unsuspecting and do not know any better. So, it allows the more savvy ones, like you and I, to extract more than the average value out of our investments while others do not. 
But isn't that the true nature of a capitalist machine - a few profit at the expense of the masses! The same dynamics operate at the global level as well. And then we mask our privileges/advantages around self righteous and self serving platitudes!


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## Walt (Dec 4, 2005)

*Both Points and Weeks have Flaws*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Judy,
> 
> Two things.  First of all, it is the average timeshare owners accountability to be educated about the products they own.  If they don't get educated with free public material such as exists here on TUG, then that is their freedom to do so.  If, all of a sudden, the average timesharer decided to get educated, things would change very quickly.  Since that is not likely to happen, RCI's activities will likely continue.
> 
> Second, forget about buying RCI back.  It would be easier and cheaper to start your own exchange company alternative.  And, you would have a chance at changing the *fundamentally flawed weeks exchange model.*





Both Points and Weeks have flaws and strengths.   In your opinion could you list the strengths and flaws of both Points and Weeks?

I think one of the greatest strengths with Weeks is KISS (Keep it simple stupid). 

The non Tugger and even the Tugger can less likely be fooled with Weeks vs Points.  With the Exchange Company holding all of the cards (because they make all of the rule), the Points owner is at the Exchanges Company's Mercy!  I don't think this is as true with the Weeks owners.  The Weeks owners still have to make the deposit.  There is no automatic deposit.

I think the points owners are seeing, where you were sold advantages such as short term stays, and points programs for airlines, car rentals, etc. And now because of the COST of an exchange there is no advantage.   

Walt


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## timeos2 (Dec 4, 2005)

*Weeks may be simple but not workable*



			
				Walt said:
			
		

> [/B]
> 
> 
> Both Points and Weeks have flaws and strengths.   In your opinion could you list the strengths and flaws of both Points and Weeks?
> ...



Walt - Other than the ability to choose if your week is deposited or not, and Points for Deposit users also have that choice in points, both systems are under total control of the exchange company for weeks and points. In points you have a fighting chance of getting what you desire as they have published the cost (in points) and if you have the correct number of points & see the time it's yours.  You can also borrow or rent points if you are short. In weeks you ask and the exchange company, behind the scenes and with no way to confirm on your end, says you can get weeks x, y z or there are no matches. You don't know if you just missed, if a slightly "stronger" trader would have obtained what you wanted, you don't even know what the value was they assigned to your deposit. It is the very "simplicity" of a week for week that dooms the process. Hardly any two weeks are acually equal in value and there is no way to adjust for that in week for week trades. The prevailing system of VEP and trade valuation are secret and make the weeks system a bad bet for most owners. Add in the incentive the weeks traders have to undervalue your deposit and over value others so they can be "surplus" time available to rent rather than trade and weeks is a losing proposition.  Again you have no way of knowing what they have done or how they do it. Not an acceptable procedure for me.


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## myip (Dec 5, 2005)

Fern Modena said:
			
		

> I just tried to do a PFD transfer of a couple of SA weeks.  I was told that since they are 2006 weeks, I can't do it until 2006.  I never had that problem before.  So now it will cost to transfer them



I just did a PFD for a 2006 SA.  It didn't have any problem.


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## brucecz (Dec 5, 2005)

I just deposited three 2006  CMV UDI weeks for PFD worth a bit over 78,000 RCI Points. They were one January 2006 week and 2 February 2006 weeks.   That saved us $78.  

I going to check around  and see if we can not grab a few more CMV UDI  2006 white weeks (maybe worth another 100,000 or so RCI Points) to beat the 2006 January first dead line later this month.

Bruce  



			
				Fern Modena said:
			
		

> I emailed feedback@rci.com to see what they say, and/or if they will help me by transferring the weeks.
> 
> The VG said it only applied to SA weeks, but it still makes no sense, cause as you say, anyone owning weeks one thru about 14 would then be too late for full credit upon deposit.
> 
> Fern


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## Carolinian (Dec 11, 2005)

RCI is a quasi-monoply at resorts that are affiliated only with RCI and do not make their members aware of the independents.

We could all do a lot to further competition in the exchange industry by asking our HOA's to help inform all of their members about the independents and how to contact them.

There are consumer protection laws already on the books that could be utilized by a savvy state Attorney General to start turning over the rocks at RCI in a prelitigation investigation using their subpoena powers.  Timeshare owners just need to get the attention of one state AG out of the fifty.

There is also an area of state law that could be modified to curtail some of RCI's more slimy activities.  In most, if not all, states developers in sales are required to provide disclosure statements to buyers from any exchange company with which they have an affiliation contract.  Those statutes could be modified to require, for example, very detailed disclosure of exchange company rental activity, and to put the fact that it rents exchange deposits to non-members in big letters on the front page of the disclosure guide.   I bet that developers would see to it that such rentals ended quickly!





			
				JudyS said:
			
		

> In theory, competition should force exchange companies to charge reasonable prices and offer good customer service.  In practice, this will only happen if the average timeshare owner knows that alternative exchange companies exist -- and I don't see that happening any time soon.
> 
> I doubt that any sort of government regulation is going to help timeshare owners out with the exchange companies.  It's not that I believe government regulation never works, it's that timeshare owners don't have anywhere near enough influence as a group to get regulations enacted in their favor.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Dec 11, 2005)

Walt said:
			
		

> [/B]
> 
> 
> Both Points and Weeks have flaws and strengths.   In your opinion could you list the strengths and flaws of both Points and Weeks?
> ...



1) Weeks has more flexibility in how long in advance you can make an exchange (2 years vs. 10 months).  With Points, the reservation window is too late to get an ff ticket in many instances if you are going to a popular destination at a popular time.

2) The exchange mechanism of Weeks is more flexible with trading power constantly adjusting for ever changing supply and demand factors, compared to the frozen numbers of Points.  Weeks is also flexible enough to give the Thanksgiving bump to week 46 in the years it is Thanksgiving, while Points is so rigid that it always gives it to week 47 whether or not it is really Thanksgiving week.

3) The Weeks trading power calculation can differentiate between an August week 34 at the beach and a late October week 43.  Points does not have that flexibility and gives them the same point value (OBX example but Points is riddled with similar situations), a ripoff for week 34 and a windfall for week 43.  Points may have some peripheral aspects of flexiblity, but it is Weeks that has the more flexible exchange mechanism.

Just a few of the superior aspects of Weeks.


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## short (Dec 11, 2005)

*Weeks disadvantages*



			
				Carolinian said:
			
		

> 1) Weeks has more flexibility in how long in advance you can make an exchange (2 years vs. 10 months).  With Points, the reservation window is too late to get an ff ticket in many instances if you are going to a popular destination at a popular time.
> 
> 2) The exchange mechanism of Weeks is more flexible with trading power constantly adjusting for ever changing supply and demand factors, compared to the frozen numbers of Points.  Weeks is also flexible enough to give the Thanksgiving bump to week 46 in the years it is Thanksgiving, while Points is so rigid that it always gives it to week 47 whether or not it is really Thanksgiving week.
> 
> ...



Your reasons you list are the same reasons that points are superior.

1.  Weeks exchanges require you to decide on your vacation plans way earlier than the average traveler has any idea of their travel plan.  Most exchangers do not fly to their destination and even fewer use frequent flyer miles.  A two year exchange window benefits a few at the expense of many.

2.  The variable nature of weeks allows blue studios to trade into red 2 bedrooms in those very same beach weeks if the weeks has the right group priority or can hit on a bulk space bank.

3.  Weeks has a more restrictive trading formula since you have no idea if you cannot get a week because it is not there or because you week is 1 percent short of trading power.  Weeks trading formula gives you no change back for your week if you trade down in size or season.

Just the flip side of your arguement.

Short


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## cclendinen (Dec 11, 2005)

*They did a 2005 PDF for me.*



			
				Fern Modena said:
			
		

> I just tried to do a PFD transfer of a couple of SA weeks.  I was told that since they are 2006 weeks, I can't do it until 2006.  I never had that problem before.  So now it will cost to transfer them



Fern, I just did my PDF for a 2006 week.  I did not have a problem and because I did it before 2006, I don't have to pay the fee.


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## Sandy (Dec 21, 2005)

How did some of you learn about this $26 fee to deposit for points? I just called RCI points and they have no clue.  

I don't want to miss a deadline, but should I rush to deposit just to save $26?  If I keep the week available, it gives me the opportunity to look at alternative exchanges that do not show up on the points side of the website. At least until the last minute. (BTW- what is the latest that I can deposit PFD without losing any points) 

what do others think?


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2005)

*A new points guide named Troy LeBlanc told me.*

 He is not a new guide, he is a "new points member" guide.  Anyway, I posted it first because he told me of the changes.   A points trade for a week will now cost $99 too.

I get into the program, the price goes up.  It is my fault.


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## Giselherr (Dec 29, 2005)

*A plea for elucidation*



			
				brucecz said:
			
		

> This increase would raise our cost to fly RT to Hawaii using 3-4 white weeks per ticket from about $199 -$250 to $277-$350 per ticket. [unquote]
> 
> How can this be? Are you not paying maintenance fees for these weeks?
> I am more and more confused about this points business.


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## Giselherr (Dec 29, 2005)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> It is the very "simplicity" of a week for week that dooms the process. Hardly any two weeks are acually equal in value and there is no way to adjust for that in week for week trades.




But If an available week is acceptable to me in exchange for my week being acceptable to the other party, isn't the concept of equality in value actually fulfilled?


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## Dani (Dec 29, 2005)

Fern Modena said:
			
		

> I emailed feedback@rci.com to see what they say, and/or if they will help me by transferring the weeks.
> 
> The VG said it only applied to SA weeks, but it still makes no sense, cause as you say, anyone owning weeks one thru about 14 would then be too late for full credit upon deposit.
> 
> Fern



  Fern,

  I just did a PFD with my Dik week two weeks ago for my 2006 week with no problem.  The points are in my account.  I hope they straightened this out for you.


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## Fern Modena (Dec 30, 2005)

Danielle,
They eventually did fix it, but only after *two* emails to feedback@rci.com .  The first time they gave me the same erroneous information I posted here.  When I persisted a light finally went off in their collective heads and somebody did the right thing.  I had to repeatedly tell them that I wasn't depositing the week, that it already was deposited (and had been verified when deposited, of course).  Finally they understood.

Fern


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## brucecz (Jan 1, 2006)

We get multi weeks with each deeded CMV UDI ownership that can be about 10 to 14 reservations per year on average for one ownership. We rent out a few weeks to more than cover the maintenance fees and the other weeks we can use for Points for deposit, etc and on all of the weeks we book we pay a house keeping fee. 

For our CMV UDI Timbers it is $50 housekeeping fee per reservation which also includes free golfing and ski lift passes and on the UDI Cottages it is $48 housekeeping fee per reservation booked. We have 7 of these CMV UDI deeded ownerships,

As of yesterday we will  have 80,000 2005 RCI Points  from 2005 and  236,230  RCI Points banked for 2006. We after finding out about the charge for depositing weeks into our RCI Points account staring today made 5 deposits of about 120,000 in Dec to beat paying $26 per deposit saving ourselves $130.

Most of the weeks we deposit for the weeks for points program and are  mostly white weeks and "Pink" red weeks a little more than 45 days and 30 days before their check in dates.

I agree that the Bluegreen VC's are very pleasant and out over maybe over 300 calls I have only run into two of them that were a bit disagreeable but we got them straighen out and corrected after I got Bluegreen supervisors involved.

Bruce



			
				Giselherr said:
			
		

> brucecz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SteveChapin (Jan 12, 2006)

brucecz said:
			
		

> We after finding out about the charge for depositing weeks into our RCI Points account staring today made 5 deposits of about 120,000 in Dec to beat paying $26 per deposit saving ourselves $130.



Whereas I, with my impeccable sense of timing and ignorance,
did my first UDI float week reservation today, and deposited into Points for 1/2 the Red week value (I got the last red week in the winter season, week 8).  Interestingly, the RCI VC said, "Oh, you don't want to do that, you won't get any points!"  When I said that I thought I got 1/2 the points 45 days out, she agreed.  So 20,000 = 0 for RCI.  At no time during the phone call did she mention a PFD fee, and she didn't ask for a credit card (they do have one on file that they might just charge without asking).

I must say that the BlueGreen people were both EXTREMELY friendly and helpful when I made my reservations.

Bruce, I'll be in touch about possibly renting out my July red week.

sc
--


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## brucecz (Jan 12, 2006)

Steve, if you have a UDI Cottage for 30 to 44 days out you should get 21,750 RCI Pts and if you were 45to 89 days out on a Cottage you should get 32,645 RCI Pts.

If you have a UDI Oak Timbers for 30 to 44 days out you should get 27,750 RCI Pts and for 45 to 89 days out you should get 41,625 RCI Pts.

Did you remember to book that extra 4th reservation 45 days out?

The Bluegreen people that handle the UDI's are easy to deal with. If you are going to cancel a reservation at no charge it will make it easier for them and go faster if you give them the reservation code if you have more than one UDI Account.

Feel free to call us.

Bruce 




			
				SteveChapin said:
			
		

> Whereas I, with my impeccable sense of timing and ignorance,
> did my first UDI float week reservation today, and deposited into Points for 1/2 the Red week value (I got the last red week in the winter season, week 8).  Interestingly, the RCI VC said, "Oh, you don't want to do that, you won't get any points!"  When I said that I thought I got 1/2 the points 45 days out, she agreed.  So 20,000 = 0 for RCI.  At no time during the phone call did she mention a PFD fee, and she didn't ask for a credit card (they do have one on file that they might just charge without asking).
> 
> I must say that the BlueGreen people were both EXTREMELY friendly and helpful when I made my reservations.
> ...


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## SteveChapin (Jan 13, 2006)

brucecz said:
			
		

> Steve, if you have a UDI Cottage for 30 to 44 days out you should get 21,750 RCI Pts and if you were 45to 89 days out on a Cottage you should get 32,645 RCI Pts.
> 
> If you have a UDI Oak Timbers for 30 to 44 days out you should get 27,750 RCI Pts and for 45 to 89 days out you should get 41,625 RCI Pts.
> 
> Did you remember to book that extra 4th reservation 45 days out?



That's the one I deposited today.  I'm not sure if a deposit on the same day it's made counts for the 1/2 points (32k) or less (21k) points.

I will give you a call to discuss the finer points.  

Thanks!

sc
--


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## SteveChapin (Jan 18, 2006)

brucecz said:
			
		

> Steve, if you have a UDI Cottage for 30 to 44 days out you should get 21,750 RCI Pts and if you were 45 to 89 days out on a Cottage you should get 32,645 RCI Pts.
> 
> If you have a UDI Oak Timbers for 30 to 44 days out you should get 27,750 RCI Pts and for 45 to 89 days out you should get 41,625 RCI Pts.



I got 21,750 points.  I deposited this week the same day I made the reservation, which according to BlueGreen was 45 days out.  Is it possible to make a 45-day reservation and deposit it for 3/4 points, or will RCI always do the accounting such that a 45-day reservation will be counted as 44 days deposit time (resulting in 1/2 the points rather than 3/4)?

sc
--


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## brucecz (Jan 19, 2006)

That is RCI's M.O.

Bruce 


			
				SteveChapin said:
			
		

> I got 21,750 points.  I deposited this week the same day I made the reservation, which according to BlueGreen was 45 days out.  Is it possible to make a 45-day reservation and deposit it for 3/4 points, or will RCI always do the accounting such that a 45-day reservation will be counted as 44 days deposit time (resulting in 1/2 the points rather than 3/4)?
> 
> sc
> --


----------

