# Help me buy the right TimeShare (HGVC) for our family !  [Merged]



## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

Hi,

After reading and reading, we have decided to go Hilton way. We are very interested into buying HGVC 2BR with platinum week. We would like to understand more about the exchange and availability system of both HGVC and RCI.

We live in Canada and our closest sun destination is Mexico (no florida pls). we are not mexico dead fan people and a very open to go to other sun and beach destinations (like hawaii etc..) We will mostly travel on Week 9 every year (canadian spring break for kids). we are 2 adults, 2 young child and may sometime bring our 2 parents with us (occasionnally).

We will certainly buy resale for sure. We want to spend less than 20k, but are open to ideas and pricey deals if they occur.

With all of these criteria, can someone help us with the following questions:

1- Should I buy in cancun or in another place. I see that year fees will vary alot from country to country. Isn't it a good idea to buy at a cheaper place and then exchange ? Price also change alot from a resot to another resort... What are the advantage of buying at an expensive resort if you don't want to go there every year?

2- How difficult is it to get week 9 with HGVC at a HGVC beach resort ?

3- Once I have my HGVC points, what difference will it make for my needs if I have 4800 points instead of 8000 points? What doors am I closing on us ?

4- I see that on RCI, they are talking about 50k, 70k, 100k points in exchange program. How would my HGVC compare once I put it on RCi ?

5- On RCI, how difficult if it to get week 9 considering I have my platium week with HGVC on hand ?

I have more questions in mind but if anyone is willing to take time to answer to these, i would really appreciate your help.

Looking forward for your TUG 

Cheers
Bo


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## cdnewmanpac (Mar 4, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> Hi,
> 
> After reading and reading, we have decided to go Hilton way. We are very interested into buying HGVC 2BR with platinum week. We would like to understand more about the exchange and availability system of both HGVC and RCI.
> 
> ...



I can answer some:
3. 4800 points in platinum season(which week 9 is for most beach resorts) will get you a 1br for hgvc resorts or affiliates. Two to four adults plus two children in a1 br seems tight. If you use rci, you can get a 2br for 4800 points, but since you need a specific week, you may not get what you want. 7k points is enough for a2br in platinum season in any location(though maybe not any resort at a given location). Beyond 7k is going to bring a significant cost premium with diminishing benefit.
4. Hilton has a chart that shows how many hgvc points you need for each category of rci.exchange. since you exchange through the hgvc corporate account, the"rci points" don't really matter.
I will let others with larger families and more Mexico specific knowledge answer the others


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

cdnewmanpac said:


> I can answer some:
> 3. 4800 points in platinum season(which week 9 is for most beach resorts) will get you a 1br for hgvc resorts or affiliates. Two to four adults plus two children in a1 br seems tight. If you use rci, you can get a 2br for 4800 points, but since you need a specific week, you may not get what you want. 7k points is enough for a2br in platinum season in any location(though maybe not any resort at a given location). Beyond 7k is going to bring a significant cost premium with diminishing benefit.
> 4. Hilton has a chart that shows how many hgvc points you need for each category of rci.exchange. since you exchange through the hgvc corporate account, the"rci points" don't really matter.
> I will let others with larger families and more Mexico specific knowledge answer the others




Hi, Many thanks for taking time to respond. I will keep this info in mind.

Bo


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## tugnut (Mar 4, 2014)

Why not simply find a resort you want to go to then rent for a week day etc? $20,000 to be extorted year in year out with MF's. That's nuts.


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

tugnut said:


> Why not simply find a resort you want to go to then rent for a week day etc? $20,000 to be extorted year in year out with MF's. That's nuts.



If I put this on a 20 years amortization and a resale of $7000 in 20 years, I am better going Timeshare. Renting a suite like timeshare is a lot more expensive than a room and my wife don't want a room !! 

Cheers


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## Passepartout (Mar 4, 2014)

I wouldn't buy any resort in Mexico. There are too many, thus cheap to exchange into/rent there. If you own, you are on the short end of the stick when exchanging.

If you MUST have week 9, buy week 9. Exchanging for a big (2-3Br) unit at school holiday time is beyond difficult. Finding the proper week at resale may not be easy or cheap either, but they do exist.


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## tschwa2 (Mar 4, 2014)

HGVC does not have any Mexican Resorts.  They have an affiliation with Fiesta Americana but the rules are slightly different.  So I am confused.  Are you looking to travel mainly to Mexico on your Spring break and only occasionally use any of the HGVC resorts or looking to use both equally?  As much as some people here are against buying Mexican resorts you may want to look into one that you like/love with a fixed week so you won't have to worry about booking every year.


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

tschwa2 said:


> HGVC does not have any Mexican Resorts.  They have an affiliation with Fiesta Americana but the rules are slightly different.  So I am confused.  Are you looking to travel mainly to Mexico on your Spring break and only occasionally use any of the HGVC resorts or looking to use both equally?  As much as some people here are against buying Mexican resorts you may want to look into one that you like/love with a fixed week so you won't have to worry about booking every year.



Hi Tschwa2 and thanks for responding. Sorry I was not clear. What I mean was to buy a HGVC built by Hilton in Florida and then exchange for Fiesta Mexicana to use it in the winter since my wife find it too cold in Florida. 

I do not want to travel to mexico necessarely, but it is a fact that it is the closest Hilton affiliate to Canada.

I just need to figure out why would I buy a Florida based HGVC with cheaper fees and selling price rather than a, let say, Hawaiian based HGVC...

And then, what will happend when I will want to trade it on RCi for something in the caribbean,,, one day... ...

thanks


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## presley (Mar 4, 2014)

Trading in RCI with Hilton is different than other timeshares.  We have a corporate portal which filters out some resort that Hilton believes to be unworthy.  Our trade power is firmly set.
Copied from the site:

POINT VALUES FOR RCI EXCHANGE RESERVATIONS
UNIT SIZE	CLUBPOINTS OR BONUS POINTS REQUIRED PER 7-NIGHT STAY	CLUBPOINTS OR BONUS POINTS REQUIRED PER NIGHT
Studio	starting at 1,200 to 2,400	starting at 120 to 480 (per night)
1 Bedroom	starting at 1,700 to 3,400	starting at 170 to 680 (per night)
2 Bedroom	starting at 2,400 to 4,800	starting at 240 to 960 (per night)
3 Bedroom	starting at 2,900 to 5,800	starting at 290 to 1,160 (per night

If you own 4800 Hilton points, you can trade that for a 2 bedroom in RCI for any location during any season.  Hilton is expensive to own if you are mostly looking at trading with RCI.  If you will *mostly* use it for HGVC reservations, it is a great system.


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

presley said:


> Trading in RCI with Hilton is different than other timeshares.  We have a corporate portal which filters out some resort that Hilton believes to be unworthy.  Our trade power is firmly set.
> Copied from the site:
> 
> POINT VALUES FOR RCI EXCHANGE RESERVATIONS
> ...



Hi Presley

Thanks for responding. I don't understand the point with RCI as I don't have access to RCI or HGVC system since I don't own a TS. But, what you are saying is, it takes 4800 points to get a 2 bedroom with RCI. But that is in what resort and why does some TS sold with RCI mention they are worth 106 000 points or Gold crown thing.. how is that applied toward HGVC or vice-versa ?

thanks


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## presley (Mar 4, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> But, what you are saying is, it takes 4800 points to get a 2 bedroom with RCI. But that is in what resort and why does some TS sold with RCI mention they are worth 106 000 points or Gold crown thing.. how is that applied toward HGVC or vice-versa



If you own HGVC and are using RCI, it makes no difference how many RCI points anything is worth.  It's a totally different trading system with Hilton.  You only trade based on the Hilton point chart above.  

RCI points is a specific type of membership for people who own a timeshare week that has been converted to RCI points.  Some of these types of timeshares sell for $1. and they have differing annual fees from very low to very high.  With these types of ownerships (they are not Hiltons), you need a particular amount of RCI points for different resorts when trading.

It's apples and oranges.  RCI points and HGVC/RCI trading have nothing in common, other than exchange inventory.


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## capjak (Mar 4, 2014)

starwood has both mexico (cancun) and Hawaii (Maui/Kauai).


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh.. I think I understand. So that mean, when I put my 4800 HGVC points into RCI, I can reserve in ANYTHING available in RCI for 7 days ? Isn't there any limitation ? I mean, this is like having super mega power toward any RCI points TS owner ? 

Thanks



presley said:


> If you own HGVC and are using RCI, it makes no difference how many RCI points anything is worth.  It's a totally different trading system with Hilton.  You only trade based on the Hilton point chart above.
> 
> RCI points is a specific type of membership for people who own a timeshare week that has been converted to RCI points.  Some of these types of timeshares sell for $1. and they have differing annual fees from very low to very high.  With these types of ownerships (they are not Hiltons), you need a particular amount of RCI points for different resorts when trading.
> 
> It's apples and oranges.  RCI points and HGVC/RCI trading have nothing in common, other than exchange inventory.


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## presley (Mar 4, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> 1- Should I buy in cancun or in another place. I see that year fees will vary alot from country to country. Isn't it a good idea to buy at a cheaper place and then exchange ? Price also change alot from a resot to another resort... What are the advantage of buying at an expensive resort if you don't want to go there every year? Hilton doesn't have cancun, but points are points when you buy at any HGVC location.
> 
> 2- How difficult is it to get week 9 with HGVC at a HGVC beach resort ?
> I don't think it would be difficult.  Some resorts have smaller inventory, but if you book at 9 months, you can get it.
> ...


I decided to go back to your first post since it sounded like you didn't really understand HGVC trading.  Answered to the best of my ability in red.


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## tschwa2 (Mar 4, 2014)

No with RCI as long as you have enough power to reserve through whatever currency you are using it is first come first serve (with ongoing searches or who ever books first when available online)

The only downside is it may be a so so week you want that may be very cheap using RCI weeks trading power units or rci points.  You won't get a discount.  So a 2 br Disney Hawaii DVC in the summer (if one ever becomes available) would cost the same as a 2 br so so no name resort in Orlando.


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

I am so lost... I know you tried your best lol...


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## presley (Mar 4, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> Oh.. I think I understand. So that mean, when I put my 4800 HGVC points into RCI, I can reserve in ANYTHING available in RCI for 7 days ? Isn't there any limitation ? I mean, this is like having super mega power toward any RCI points TS owner ?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, you can book anything in RCI, no matter how exotic/rare/high demand it is for the 4800points.
No limits.  HGVC is at the top of the food chain in RCI.  
Also, you won't need to deposit points into RCI (unless they are about to expire).  You use the hilton website to view and book RCI inventory.  You can set up ongoing requests that way and RCI will take the points out of your Hilton account when you book an exchange.  

If you only want to exchange in RCI, Hilton can be a waste of money.  Our fees are very high compared to others.  And they will always go up whether you use it or not.


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## MelanieB (Mar 4, 2014)

As you'll often see posted on this board, with HGVC "points are points".  Meaning that you're usually best off choosing the "cheapest" contract you can find (where "cheapest" is whatever balance of buy-in cost and maintenance fees suits you best), even if that's at a location you don't plan to stay in.  The exception to that rule is if you want to travel to the same place at the same time each year.  In that case it *might* make more sense to buy at that location.  This gives you an advance booking window and saves you $50+ dollars each year in booking fees.

If I understand you correctly, you want to go someplace hot each year at March Break, where "hot" does not include Florida, or, presumably, California or Las Vegas in March.  That pretty much leaves Hawaii or Mexico, or maybe the Caribbean.

It's expensive to own in Hawaii.  You would probably save more in maintenance fees by buying in Florida or Las Vegas than the yearly reservation fee would cost.  That leaves availability.  I've only owned HGVC for a short time, but was making a note of March Break availability in Hawaii this year.  No problem at all at Waikoloa.  Harder at HHV, but still do-able.

Others have already commented on the wisdom of buying in Mexico, and the HGVC agreement with FAVC.  That leaves the Caribbean.  Exchanging into the Caribbean via RCI is pretty easy, I think, but rarely good value.  Many resorts charge mandatory "all inclusive" fees that add up to as much or more than you would pay to just take a regular pre-packaged all-inclusive trip.

All that said, I'm questioning whether Hilton is the best system for you?  IMO the best thing about Hilton is the flexibility of the points system.  If you mostly intend to trade into Mexico, or even Hawaii, you're probably better off with a cheaper system.  Just a thought.  But everyone has their own priorities in timeshare ownership, and yours are probably different from mine.  

One other thing to note - FAVC is not bookable through the online Hilton portal, so will require a call to the reservations centre (and thus a higher booking fee) to check availability and reserve.  Also probably means that the only people who will be able to comment on March Break availability there are those who have actually tried to book it at that time.


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## mz3bo (Mar 4, 2014)

Folks,

This answered a few questions I had in mind and you may be ringing a bell in my mind. We decided to go HGVC because of their nice resort. However, I am happy I posted on this forum and we may be going wrong way. We really think that most of our winter break will be spent in the Caribbean. We really like St-Martin, St thomas, St-kitts etc... We were thinking about getting HGVC to exchange in RCI for something ''upscale'' on those island on our week 9 and when we will want to go to a hilton resort, we will then go there. 

However, we are now questionning ourself to see WHEN will we go to a Hilton Resort as the one that will suit our weather needs are the Hawaiin one, wich is 16hours and $$$ flight from where we are....

What do you suggest.. I am not saying no to anything but it is great to have your comments like you did...




MelanieB said:


> As you'll often see posted on this board, with HGVC "points are points".  Meaning that you're usually best off choosing the "cheapest" contract you can find (where "cheapest" is whatever balance of buy-in cost and maintenance fees suits you best), even if that's at a location you don't plan to stay in.  The exception to that rule is if you want to travel to the same place at the same time each year.  In that case it *might* make more sense to buy at that location.  This gives you an advance booking window and saves you $50+ dollars each year in booking fees.
> 
> If I understand you correctly, you want to go someplace hot each year at March Break, where "hot" does not include Florida, or, presumably, California or Las Vegas in March.  That pretty much leaves Hawaii or Mexico, or maybe the Caribbean.
> 
> ...


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## presley (Mar 4, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> Folks,
> 
> This answered a few questions I had in mind and you may be ringing a bell in my mind. We decided to go HGVC because of their nice resort. However, I am happy I posted on this forum and we may be going wrong way. We really think that most of our winter break will be spent in the Caribbean. We really like St-Martin, St thomas, St-kitts etc... We were thinking about getting HGVC to exchange in RCI for something ''upscale'' on those island on our week 9 and when we will want to go to a hilton resort, we will then go there.
> 
> ...



A lot of those areas have very nice Marriott and Starwood properties.  You will never get those with an RCI exchange because they only trade in Interval International.  It would be good if you looked at which resorts you would specifically want to trade to.  Then, you can backtrack and look at what you want to buy.

RCI directory of participating resorts: http://www.rci.com/RCI/prelogin/rdMain.do?country=US&language=en

Interval International directory of participating resorts:  
http://www.intervalworld.com


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## Ron98GT (Mar 5, 2014)

A few comments:

If you're looking to purchase a HGVC resale timeshare (TS), look at Las Vegas.  We have the lowest yearly/recurring maintenance fees (MF's).  With HGVC, points-are-points. So go with the lowest buy-in and the lowest MF's. 

Get at least 7,000 HGVC points.  This will guarantee you a 2 bedroom (BR) for 1 week, and depending upon points required, maybe 2 weeks in a 1 BR.

HGVC points are not the same as RCI Points.  You would have to refer to the HGVC to RCI (weeks?) conversion chart.

Using your HGVC points for non-HGVC TS's in RCI is not the best use of your HGVC points.

When you use your HGVC points to exchange for another HGVC TS thru the Hilton/HGVC portal, you will be subject to a RCI enforced 1-in-4 rule.

HGVC doesn't have any TS's in the Caribbean, although they do have a lot of really nice affiliates in Mexico that you could trade into.  I just would not recommend buying one of them.

If your primarily interested in exchanging into the Caribbean each year, I highly recommend purchasing an Interval International (II) affiliated TS, instead of a RCI affiliated TS, which includes HGVC. I think that they have a better selection of TS's and of better quality.  I have a preference for Marriott and Weston, both of which have TS's throughout the Caribbean, including Cancun.  I'd recommend a good Marriott Platinum Lock-Off (L/O) week trader.  The L/O could get you 2 weeks for the price of 1 MF.  Plus you get the Marriott preference.  The Marriott could get you into Cancun (Weston), Aruba (Marriott), St Kitts (Marriott), Virgin Islands (Marriott), and St Marteen. Plus you have access to the Marriott's and Weston's on Maui, Kauai, and the Marriott Ko'Olina.

http://www.intervalworld.com/

You could be like some of us and get a HGVC and a Marriott, which would give you the best of both worlds.  You could pickup an annual Las Vegas 7K HGVC TS for under $7K and an annual Marriott Platinum L/O week for under $2K.  Or you could look at the Every-Other-Year (EOY) TS's.  With an EOY, your MF's would be cut in 1/2, along with the purchase price.  As time goes buy, if you need more HGVC points or II weeks, purchase another EOY week.

A lot to think about


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## tashamen (Mar 5, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> HGVC doesn't have any TS's in the Caribbean, although they do have a lot of really nice affiliates in Mexico that you could trade into.



One of those affiliates is Club Intrawest, which has a very nice resort in Zihuatanejo.  You can use HGVC points directly to book CI properties, I believe.  



Ron98GT said:


> If your primarily interested in exchanging into the Caribbean each year, I highly recommend purchasing an Interval International (II) affiliated TS, instead of a RCI affiliated TS, which includes HGVC. I think that they have a better selection of TS's and of better quality.  I have a preference for Marriott and Weston, both of which have TS's throughout the Caribbean, including Cancun.



I agree with this.  I'm not sure why Bo is so intent on HGVC.  S/he should spend a LOT more time here on TUG before buying anything!


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## Ron98GT (Mar 5, 2014)

tashamen said:


> One of those affiliates is Club Intrawest, which has a very nice resort in Zihuatanejo.  You can use HGVC points directly to book CI properties, I believe.


I just checked Classic & Revolution, I don't see anything for Mexico.

Per the Member Guide, there are HGVC affiliates in Cancun, Acapulco, Los Cabos (I need to check this one out), Zihuatanejo, and Yucatan Pennisula (?).  

QUESTION: What about purchasing a HGVC TS in the USA (LV or FL), to be used primarily for exchanges for HGVC affiliates in Mexico.  The pictures in the Club Guide look good.  For week-9: a 2-BR requires 7K points and a 1-BR requires 4800 points.

There is always the change of losing the HGVC affiliation, but these have been with HGVC since the beginning of time (Flamingo). How hard are they to book?  What are the resorts actually like.

Hate to talk the OP out of something that may actually work out perfect for the OP & family.  They could still use their points for Hawaii (HHV & Waikoloa) as stated.

Sounds like a field trip is required.


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## mz3bo (Mar 5, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> I just checked Classic & Revolution, I don't see anything for Mexico.
> 
> Per the Member Guide, there are HGVC affiliates in Cancun, Acapulco, Los Cabos (I need to check this one out), Zihuatanejo, and Yucatan Pennisula (?).
> 
> ...



You guys are right... I need to spend more time on TUG and I am very happy that you answered some on my questions. The reason why I choose HGVC is because I read everywhere that they were the best bla bla bla.. Now, I never really realized that they cannot be exchanged for something in the caribbean... 

I am more lost than what I was before posting but it's positive so far  Trying to make the right choice...


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## Ron98GT (Mar 5, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> You guys are right... I need to spend more time on TUG and I am very happy that you answered some on my questions. The reason why I choose HGVC is because I read everywhere that they were the best bla bla bla.. Now, I never really realized that they cannot be exchanged for something in the caribbean...
> 
> I am more lost than what I was before posting but it's positive so far  Trying to make the right choice...


The HGVC TS can be exchanged for another TS, in the Caribbean, thru RCI.  But remember that the HGVC TS's in RCI are the best by a long shot, so you would be trading down.

Spend some time on the Marriott board, along with the Interval and Marriott Vacation Club web sites.  Just ignore the discussions about DC points, since you need to buy a resale week.  Weston's are nice, but I can easily get into them (Maui, Cancun, etc) with my Marriott and I get the Marriott preference for the Marriott's.

I don't know if Southern Spain is warm enough for the DW, but Marriott has 3 TS resorts over there on the Mediterranean that you can stay at, besides those in the Caribbean and Hawaii.  They also have 3 TS's in Thailand: 2 in Phuket and 1 in Bangkok.


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## mz3bo (Mar 5, 2014)

Hi Ron,

Great info. Maybe you can give me more details about MVCI as I read alot about it but missing some clues...

1- When a broker or other site is selling MVC, how do they know if they are selling weeks on Dc points ? They only mention Platinum, Floating etc... so I guess it`s week right ?

2- If I get a week TS, would I miss the DC points TS as I will never be able to trade to DC ? 

3- How is MVC traded between MVC ? is there a points or value system like HGVC points ?

4- How MVC is traded over II ? How do I know the trading power of each MVC and how are they compared to II inventory ?

I know it Hilton forum here, but if you have answer for me, I would really appreciate.

Thanks
Bo



Ron98GT said:


> The HGVC TS can be exchanged for another TS, in the Caribbean, thru RCI.  But remember that the HGVC TS's in RCI are the best by a long shot, so you would be trading down.
> 
> Spend some time on the Marriott board, along with the Interval and Marriott Vacation Club web sites.  Just ignore the discussions about DC points, since you need to buy a resale week.  Weston's are nice, but I can easily get into them (Maui, Cancun, etc) with my Marriott and I get the Marriott preference for the Marriott's.
> 
> I don't know if Southern Spain is warm enough for the DW, but Marriott has 3 TS resorts over there on the Mediterranean that you can stay at, besides those in the Caribbean and Hawaii.  They also have 3 TS's in Thailand: 2 in Phuket and 1 in Bangkok.


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## mz3bo (Mar 6, 2014)

Also, can someone explain what they mean by POINTS are POINTS with HGVC ? Let say I am trading inside hilton system (no RCI). If I own 7000 points in vegas and want to trade most of the time to  Mexico on Hawaii, do I have less chance because I own Vegas and not somewhere else. In another word, what is the difference if you have 7000 points in vegas or 7000 points in hawaii when comes to exchaning on hilton network ?

Thanks


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## MelanieB (Mar 6, 2014)

tashamen said:


> One of those affiliates is Club Intrawest, which has a very nice resort in Zihuatanejo.  You can use HGVC points directly to book CI properties, I believe.





Ron98GT said:


> I just checked Classic & Revolution, I don't see anything for Mexico.



CI properties aren't bookable online, requires a phone call.  And I think there are a couple of CI properties that don't have inventory in the Hilton system (haven't seen Panorama, nor their new location in Ucluelet).  But the rest are bookable as club reservations, and as I recently discovered on a very nice trip to Tremblant, you will be treated as a CI member rather than an exchanger for the purposes of members-only "perks".

The phone call is kind of a pest, but not all bad.  I'm convinced that it helps keep availability up.  I had no problem at all booking at Tremblant during prime ski season at about 7 months out.


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## Ron98GT (Mar 6, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> Hi Ron,
> 
> Great info. Maybe you can give me more details about MVCI as I read alot about it but missing some clues...
> 
> ...


I've been reluctant to answer, since these questions are Marriott specific.  I suggest that you start reading the threads in the Marriott Forum and ask any future Marriott specific questions over there.

Unfortunately, the Marriott "points" system is nothing remotely similar to the HGVC system.  I like the HGVC points system and I like Hilton, which is why I own a HGVC TS and plan on buying another one.


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## Ron98GT (Mar 6, 2014)

mz3bo said:


> Also, can someone explain what they mean by POINTS are POINTS with HGVC ? Let say I am trading inside hilton system (no RCI). If I own 7000 points in vegas and want to trade most of the time to  Mexico on Hawaii, do I have less chance because I own Vegas and not somewhere else. In another word, what is the difference if you have 7000 points in vegas or 7000 points in hawaii when comes to exchaning on hilton network ?
> 
> Thanks


http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207493


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## gmmj (Mar 6, 2014)

*Marriott in Hawaii*

We are currently at KO Olina, Oahu. Our first two weeks are in the guest suite, then our son's family (5) joins us in our full penthouse unit. It seems not full this week. We had a direct flight with WestJet from Calgary, so that was nice. As we have gotten older flight arrangements become more important, so keep that in mind.


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