# Hotel based timeshare



## Bootser (Nov 20, 2006)

I am contemplating a hotel based timeshare. I currently own fixed weeks and like this arrangement for going where and when I want to go and trade with RCI for use now and then to other locations. This seems to work very well for most Caribbean locations and other popular beach resort areas.
If I purchase a hotel based timeshare I would like to be able to use it for those vacations where no timeshares are available. i.e. Europe or certain Caribbean or other destinations that may not have timeshares. I have read most of the Marriott threads and info and it appears that there is no way to add this benefit without buying from the developer and getting the Marriott Rewards points benefit to use in their hotels. Is this going to be true for most systems? Will I be forced to pay developer prices to gain this option? 
In the case of Marriott, it just doesn’t seem like the prices that are required to purchase from the developer can compensate for the points that you gain.
Need some help and insight.


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## mesamirage (Nov 20, 2006)

Hyatt may not have the locations that you are looking for, but with Hyatt you are deeded to a certain week/unit which is yours to use unless you decide to give up your rights to your week and use points instead to trade within the Hyatt locations (or bank in II).  

This is true with developer or resale purchase.


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## Sir Newf (Nov 20, 2006)

Hilton (HGVC) allows re-sales to convert to HiltonHonors Points for Hotel, very useful in Europe.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 20, 2006)

*Points required for a hotel stay keep rising*

Just keep in mind that points for hotel reward stays keep rising so the value will continue to decrease over time. 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24101

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18628

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35507

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34692

See discussions of hotel reward devaluation on http://flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=389


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## smsavage (Nov 20, 2006)

Hi,

To convert a Starwood timeshare to starpoints for use in the hotel system, the timeshare has to be purchased from the developer. This option is not available with resale. 

Have you considered picking up a rewards credit card like the Starwood American Express? As long as you pay it off every month, you'll rack up points for hotel use in areas where Starwood has hotel properties and you won't pay a huge premium (the APR can be pretty steep, so make sure it's paid each month). We get more mileage out of our credit card than we would by converting our unit.

I'm sure that the other chains have similar cards. food for thought.


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2006)

When you add up your upfront purchase price and your maintenance fees, buying a timeshare for the express purpose of using it for hotel stays is usually not a good value.  We own two Starwood timeshares, and you have to buy from the developer to convert them to hotel points - which I would never do anyway.    My Maui 2 bdm. lock-off would only convert to enough points for about a week in a standard hotel room...not a great deal.

However, I agree with smsavage - we earn as many free points with our Starwood AMEX card as we would get for converting our week to points, and since we pay it off every month, all it   costs us is $50 a year.


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## Bill4728 (Nov 20, 2006)

mesamirage said:
			
		

> Hyatt may not have the locations that you are looking for, but with Hyatt you are deeded to a certain week/unit which is yours to use unless you decide to give up your rights to your week and use points instead to trade within the Hyatt locations (or bank in II).
> 
> This is true with developer or resale purchase.


When we went on a tour at the Hyatt last month, converting your unit to Hyatt hotel points is only an option if you bought from Hyatt. *You can't convert a resale Hyatt to hotel points.*


PS to the best of my knowledge only HGVC can convert to hotel points when bought resale.


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## Seth Nock (Nov 20, 2006)

Hilton is the only program I know of that you can convert to hotel points when bought on the resales market.


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## mesamirage (Nov 21, 2006)

Bill4728 said:
			
		

> *You can't convert a resale Hyatt to hotel points.*


 
Bill,

Yep very true... I think I misunderstood the original question from Booster when he said "I currently own fixed weeks and like this arrangement for going where and when I want to go" to mean he was looking for a Hotel based timeshare that guaranteed a fixed week at the timeshare every year. 

My reply about Hyatt was about the fixed week/unit of the Hyatt timeshare units, but I don't think it applies to what Booster was asking about. Opps!!


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## Sir Newf (Nov 21, 2006)

...ooops..


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## Sir Newf (Nov 21, 2006)

Bootser- like you, I plan on using my timeshare for hotel points when TS is not available or appropriate.  For this purpose, I chose Hilton-HGVC because it offers resale purchasers the opportunity to convert to points (read in ADVICE section to top of page) the details of the program and read Hilton Honors points web site.  If you buy resale at enough HGVC points- you can convert to HH points and book at hotel with "Going Global Award". For example I am looking at a level 6 Hilton Hotel in Rome for 6 nites for 175k HH points.  The average hotel price is $300 to $500 per nite- so I'd say it's pretty good use of conversion from HGVC to HH points. I have plently of HH points from business travel, adding my conversion- I'll be good to go.  Resale pricing for HGVC is reasonable compaired to Westin or Hyatt. Have fun.


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## Blues (Nov 21, 2006)

For the 175k global award, do the 6 nights have to be consecutive and at the same hotel?  Or can you break it up, say, 3 nights at a hotel in one city and 3 nights at the next city?

-Bob


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## Sir Newf (Nov 21, 2006)

Blues-When I searched for hotel reservation in Rome under "Going Global" here's what it said:"(Reward stay must be consecutive nights with maximum of 14)".
'Going global" awards converts 23:1 vs standard 20:1 for shorter stays from HGVC.
Seth would have alot more knowledge, as does "Flyertalk.com".  I believe this and other awards are for VIP HH (silver and above). HiltonHonors AmEx will get you VIP Silver and you get 20k points.


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## Seth Nock (Nov 22, 2006)

Going Global is 175,000 for 6 nights (level 6), 150,000 for lower level.  There is also an AXON if you have the Hilton AMEX 125,000 for 4 nights.  My buyers and I have used alot of both certificates.  They are for consecutive nights only.


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## Bootser (Nov 22, 2006)

First of all thank you for the info so far, very useful.
To clarify, the fixed weeks I own are not Hilton and are conventional timeshare in St. Marten.
The reason for considering a hotel based would be to find a way (i.e. rewards program) to find lodging in locations where there is not a timeshare, say Europe or other major US cities.
There is a lot of info to digest. Not only do you have to find a reasonable deal in terms of initial investment, but some how analyze the conversion of the club points to the rewards points. i.e. the HGVC to HHonors. 
Then determine whether the use of HHonors is actually even better than just paying the nightly room rate.
The only way I know is to use the annual fees as a cost of the HHonors points. (forgetting the initial investment for now).
This is difficult to determine.
Am I on the right track? 
Does anyone have any rules of thumb for this type of analysis?
Hope this make sense.


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## Bootser (Nov 22, 2006)

Another question.
I have read the sticky above with the detail on the HGVC. Very good info.
Looking at various Hilton's for sale on various websites.
What if anything is the difference between 5000 points of Gold time vs. 5000 points of Platinum. If the system is a points based, if I have 5000 points from a Gold time can I trade for something that is in Platinum time but needs 5000 points.
If so, do I fundamentally want to pay the lowest upfront cost per point? (maint fees being equal)
Or is there a problem trading into other resorts.
My initial take would be that if I have a resort that I really want to go to, then I should buy there rather than attempt to buy the cheapest points and try to trade into them.
For example in shopping around it appears that the Hawaii resorts cost more to buy into to get an equivalent points that I could buy say in Vegas.


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## DeniseM (Nov 22, 2006)

Bootser said:
			
		

> Or is there a problem trading into other resorts.
> My initial take would be that if I have a resort that I really want to go to, then I should buy there rather than attempt to buy the cheapest points and try to trade into them.
> For example in shopping around it appears that the Hawaii resorts cost more to buy into to get an equivalent points that I could buy say in Vegas.



Common wisdom says "buy where you want to go."  Sometimes people buy resale at a less expensive resort and expect to be able to exchange into the top resorts every year, and they are disappointed.  In the Starwood system, St. John can be very hard to exchange into, and Harborside and Maui are also in very high demand.  So if you want to visit a high demand area every year, and especially if you need to travel during the summer/holidays, your best bet is to buy a resale at that resort/area.


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## Henry M. (Nov 22, 2006)

Bootser said:
			
		

> My initial take would be that if I have a resort that I really want to go to, then I should buy there rather than attempt to buy the cheapest points and try to trade into them.


 
I have found at least at resorts that are very popular, that owners that go to their home resort get better rooms. At WKORV, for example, if you go during the summer and you own there, you get assigned the best rooms first. People that trade in get the leftovers - low floors or facing the construction at WKORV-N. So even when you do manage to get a trade into a popular resort, you may not get as nice a room as if you owned there. Thus, I agree with you it is best to buy where you really want to go. 

Also, it is possible that a resort will change ownership over time. I prefer to own somewhere where, if all else fails, I'd still be happy going there.

Henry


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## Bill4728 (Nov 22, 2006)

Bootser said:
			
		

> I have read the sticky above with the detail on the HGVC. Very good info.
> Looking at various Hilton's for sale on various websites.
> What if anything is the difference between 5000 points of Gold time vs. 5000 points of Platinum. If the system is a points based, if I have 5000 points from a Gold time can I trade for something that is in Platinum time but needs 5000 points.
> If so, do I fundamentally want to pay the lowest upfront cost per point? (maint fees being equal)



The thing is that the *MFs are not equal*. With a 5000 pt gold, you pay MF on a 2 bd unit and with a 5000 pt plat you pay MFs on a 1bd unit. That is why the 5000 pt gold is normally alot cheaper than the platinum worth about the same number of points. ( from what I've seen, it will take about 5-10 years of higher MFs to make up the higher cost of a platinum points)


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## alwysonvac (Nov 22, 2006)

Currently HGVC points are determined by unit size and season. 
(This is scheduled to change -  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31433 )

Currently if you buy a standard 2 bedroom platinum season at any of the HGVC resort, you will get 7000 Club Points. 

There are three Club reservation periods: 
(1) Home Resort Reservation window (12 months to 9 months before checkout date) - During this period you can only reserve your exact size unit during your season for a full week (no exchange fee)
(2) Club Reservation window (9 months before check-out date to 30 days before check out) - During this period you can reserve at any resort, for any size unit, for any season, for a mininum of three nights 
(3) Open Reservation Season window (30 days before checkout) - Cash rates and two night minimum club point reservations are available.

For more info see HGVC under TUG Advice - http://www.tug2.net/advice/hgvc.htm

If you are flexible with your dates then trading into another HGVC is not an issue. Availability issues might appear during peak travel periods (whenever the kids are normally out of school) at popular destinations however HGVC is building more resorts in the same locations.

MF fees are based on unit size. So for example, all two bedroom owner at HGVC at Seaworld pay the same MF fee regardless of season. 

For what you're trying to do (hotel point conversions), you should try to get the most Club point for the lowest MF which is at least a two bedroom platinum.

Just remember there are three basic factors involved in the HGVC points to HHONORS points conversion
(1) MF cost (which will increasing over time)
(2) HGVC conversion rate (which may continue to decrease over time)
(3) HHONOR reward point requirement  (which will increasing over time)
NOTE: Back in 2003 you could get a 6 night hotel reward for two (Aloha Spirit VIP Reward) at a Hilton Hawaiian Resort for 4350 HGVC pts (less than a one bedroom platinum). Today this same reward goes for 7610 HGVC pts.


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## spike (Nov 22, 2006)

*May not be true w/ HGVC*



			
				DeniseM said:
			
		

> Common wisdom says "buy where you want to go."


Good advice but it may not be as true with HGVC. The common wisdom w/ HGVC is "points are points". Indeed there is almost no disadvantage to buying at another resort in the Hilton system as historically they keep a large inventory of rooms available for you to trade into 9 months out. True, owners of the resorts get a larger trade window but I've never had to use it.

But don't think you can trade into a super high demand week such as Christmas/New Years at the flagship Hilton Hawaiian Village in Waikiki or Las Vegas resorts. But I bet in 80% of the cases all other trades are available 9 months out. My experience is based upon my personal trades and reading several hundred post here about what others have done. YMMD


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## Bootser (Nov 22, 2006)

*Affiliated HGVC resorts*

One issue in the sticky that appeared to be disputed was whether I could buy a non original resort and still be able to convert Club points to HHonors.
In particular, if I buy a 2BR at Bay Club on the Big Island 
1. can I join the club
2. If so can I convert Club points to HHonors.


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## Bootser (Nov 22, 2006)

One other caveat yet.
Are there EOY Hilton Resorts?
If so, if I buy an EOY am I allowed to join the Club and exchange to HHonors?


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## Bootser (Dec 19, 2006)

Bill4728 said:
			
		

> The thing is that the *MFs are not equal*. With a 5000 pt gold, you pay MF on a 2 bd unit and with a 5000 pt plat you pay MFs on a 1bd unit. That is why the 5000 pt gold is normally alot cheaper than the platinum worth about the same number of points. ( from what I've seen, it will take about 5-10 years of higher MFs to make up the higher cost of a platinum points)



I guess I'm still back to the question "Do I want to pay the lowest amount per point as possible"
It seems to be ignored alot in most analysis, but there is the cost of money. The more I have tied up in the ownership the more the lost revenue from this investment.
Comments please


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## Henry M. (Dec 19, 2006)

Bootser said:
			
		

> I guess I'm still back to the question "Do I want to pay the lowest amount per point as possible"
> It seems to be ignored a lot in most analysis, but there is the cost of money. The more I have tied up in the ownership the more the lost revenue from this investment.
> Comments please


 
To me a timeshare is not really an investment and the best proposition from a purely financial point of view. I love the vacations I get and that now that I've paid out the money I don't think as much about going somewhere, but it is not about saving money. You need to buy the unit that will best suit your needs in terms of allowing you to go to the places you like at the time you want to go there. The time value of money becomes a second or third order consideration.

You can end up over-analyzing the situation. If you look at it from a purely financial cash flow situation, it might be better to just rent at one of the resorts (see Redweek.com or MyResortNetwork.com). I find may intangibles that does make it attractive for me to own rather than rent, but I can't say it is because I save a lot of money. I might break even compared to just renting a unit, but I probably wouldn't take as many vacations just because I would probably get cheap when it came time to lay out the cash. I also have gotten a lot of side benefits from my hotel reservations due to the elite status I get from my timeshare ownership.

I guess its kind of like owning an expensive sports car. There's no real financial justification for it, but it is a lot of fun and there's intangible value to the enjoyment of owning one. This value varies by customer.


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## MULTIZ321 (Dec 19, 2006)

Booster,

Have you looked at the Royal Holiday Club Program?  They have affiliate properties in many European locations and major cities (e.g. London, Paris, Rome, Florence etc.).


Richard


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