# WKORV annual two bedroom on ebay for $3,900 is a scam



## ada903 (Dec 28, 2010)

EDITED TEXT: The seller had zero feedback.  Listing turned out to be a scam. Beware of this seller - fastjunkremovers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280608909958&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## sb2313 (Dec 28, 2010)

I like how they require bidders to have 10 feedbacks, yet have none of their own!  Not the best ebay ad ever also...


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## DeniseM (Dec 28, 2010)

And their ebay name "fast junk removers" doesn't exactly inspire confidence...


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## ada903 (Dec 28, 2010)

I know, I stayed out because of the seller lack of feedback and poor ad.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm just not sure how this thread helps current owners at that resort or why the topic deserves its own thread... But maybe I'm the only one who feels that way


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## DeniseM (Dec 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm just not sure how this thread helps current owners at that resort or why the topic deserves its own thread... But maybe I'm the only one who feels that way



If those were the requirements to post on TUG, we'd lose 90% of our threads!  

It certainly doesn't violate the TUG posting rules, and I think many of us are interested in ebay auctions for Starwood properties.  YMMV


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## siesta (Dec 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm just not sure how this thread helps current owners at that resort or why the topic deserves its own thread... But maybe I'm the only one who feels that way


 it's not always just about current owners, but also about prospective buyers.  

You can usually get some of the best deals from sellers with low feedback or poorly labeled ads (you can always ask the seller questions to clarify, ask for starwood estoppel before payment made etc). as long as you get all your ducks in a row in the end all you would be out is just wasted time if it didn't pan out. remember just cause you win the auction doesn't mean you have to pay, with a "shady" auction I'd get everything up front before payment, but ROFR is a different story


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## mstoyanov (Dec 28, 2010)

I seriously doubt this will even go to ROFR. This auction scream "scam" - I was very close to report it to EBay fraud department. It looks like copy/paste from reputable seller auction listed from a seller with 0 feedback who created his/hers account very recently, listed it only for 1 day duration (probably hoping to fly below the radar of someone reporting it and being investigated by EBay fraud department) and asks for full payment within 5 days with "Cashiers Check, Certified Check, Wire Transfer". While first 3 items can simply be result from a newbie EBay seller the requirement for full payment with non-recourse payment options is very very suspicious.
I have seen auctions from newbie sellers (and bought from such sellers) on EBay with 0/very low feedback but this auction is nothing like one of those.
I hope that whoever the winner was will exercise extreme caution.
I did not bother to bid on it since I though that even in the tiny chance that this is not scam it will be taken back from Starwood due to the very low price it will end.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> If those were the requirements to post on TUG, we'd lose 90% of our threads!
> 
> It certainly doesn't violate the TUG posting rules, and I think many of us are interested in ebay auctions for Starwood properties.  YMMV



If someone is that interested, they should follow eBay auctions 

Besides, I thought there was an eBay thread dedicated to eBay auctions... Do we need a new thread for every auction?

Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.


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## ada903 (Dec 28, 2010)

Well summarized!



mstoyanov said:


> I seriously doubt this will even go to ROFR. This auction scream "scam" - I was very close to report it to EBay fraud department. It looks like copy/paste from reputable seller auction listed from a seller with 0 feedback who created his/hers account very recently, listed it only for 1 day duration (probably hoping to fly below the radar of someone reporting it and being investigated by EBay fraud department) and asks for full payment within 5 days with "Cashiers Check, Certified Check, Wire Transfer". While first 3 items can simply be result from a newbie EBay seller the requirement for full payment with non-recourse payment options is very very suspicious.
> I have seen auctions from newbie sellers (and bought from such sellers) on EBay with 0/very low feedback but this auction is nothing like one of those.
> I hope that whoever the winner was will exercise extreme caution.
> I did not bother to bid on it since I though that even in the tiny chance that this is not scam it will be taken back from Starwood due to the very low price it will end.


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## siesta (Dec 28, 2010)

yes this one does look suspect.  but there are some sellers (Uri Fried for example) that open multiple ebay accounts, and literally copy and paste the same ad template. that was the point I was making, not about this specific listing


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## jarta (Dec 28, 2010)

Dan,   ...   "Do we need a new thread for every auction?
Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own?"

It's called eating one's young.  Seems self-destructive, at best.  I would feel better about the practice if a larger percentage of the ebay auctions were not forced sales.  

But, a price is a price is a price.   ...   eom


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## DeniseM (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If someone is that interested, they should follow eBay auctions
> 
> Besides, I thought there was an eBay thread dedicated to eBay auctions... Do we need a new thread for every auction?
> 
> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.



Actually, I own a 2 bdm. at this resort, that I bought from the developer, and the post doesn't bother me a bit.  Once I lost $35K, I quit counting.  If my kids don't want this resort (and I don't know why the would) I fully expect to have to give it away some day.  I don't think what is or isn't posted on TUG has any effect on that.  

Even though the MF has gone down this year, it has still doubled in 7 years - that's just not acceptable.  If the MF was reasonable, the resale price would hold up a lot better.  At the Marriott right up the beach, the MF for a 2 bdm. is $340 a week less AND their newer towers are rated higher than WKORV - I think that says it all.


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## ocdb8r (Dec 29, 2010)

While I agree that it's a bit disconcerting to see these sorts of threads, I think they are appropriate.  I am hopeful for all the WKORV(N) owners that we also see a turnaround in these low prices.  If things progress well on the tax assessment front and maintenance fees return to a more reasonable level I am sure the value of these weeks will recover a bit.  The resort certainly is top notch and absent the concern about maintenance fees I would be all over picking up a week even at some of the prices we were seeing 2 years ago.


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## pathways25 (Dec 29, 2010)

*The same unit sold the day before*

There was definitely something wrong with that listing.  It was a 24 hour listing that opened the day after the exact same unit/week was sold by tochoa25 for $10,000.  Here is the other listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...1&si=7mZbjQ3KsOMZlF3RbmqUZM8aNFo%3D&viewitem=


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## ada903 (Dec 29, 2010)

I actually thought that this thread was great since I suspected it was a scam, but everyone's observations around how to judge this helped me confirm my suspicions.  Next time I will have a sharper eye when it comes to judging ebay auctions.  Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.


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## LisaRex (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.



I believe in printing the truth and then letting the chips fall where they may.  Personally, I think the biggest single deterrent to selling WKORV is the sky high MFs. It's a beautiful resort in a great oceanfront location on one of the most gorgeous places on earth.  But I wouldn't buy there again if I were to do it all over again unless I were to snag it for a real bargain price.


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## Fredm (Dec 29, 2010)

It may be a scam. Or, it may be the buyer of the Ochoa auction trying to flip their 10k winning bid before they had to pay for it. 
The ad lifted the Ochoa verbiage, word for word, including the closing costs. 

In either case, what I find remarkable is that there were actually bidders who were presumably willing to send thousands of dollars to this seller.

Amazing what a bargain price will make some people do.


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## jarta (Dec 29, 2010)

Fredm,   ...   "It may be a scam. Or, it may be the buyer of the Ochoa auction trying to flip their 10k winning bid before they had to pay for it."

Yes.  Or, it could be the disgruntled tochoa seller who said to tochoa "Go ahead, list it on ebay," doesn't like the price of the 1st auction and wanted to show tochoa that that he could get even more than $10K on ebay.  Ooops!   ...   eom


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## mstoyanov (Dec 29, 2010)

Dan,

Most of the Tuggers know much better than to use such auction in determining what to bid. And even if some are unwise to bid in future auctions based on ending price of an auction that has 99% probability to be fraud it will be their own problem because they are not going to win any WKORV auction in the near future at such price. I can promise them that 



DanCali said:


> If someone is that interested, they should follow eBay auctions
> 
> Besides, I thought there was an eBay thread dedicated to eBay auctions... Do we need a new thread for every auction?
> 
> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.


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## mstoyanov (Dec 29, 2010)

Jarta, sorry but will have to disagree with you once again. Price is a price is a price only when you have an auction that is not such obvious scam. When most bidders (including me) doesn't want to waste their time putting a bid on something they know they are not going to get one way or another this has nothing to do with a price. If I saw it earlier this auction would not even exist - I would have reported it to EBay Fraud department and they would have taken it down if not for any other reason just for the reason that seller does not accept PayPal (which EBay forces to be accepted on all auctions). The only reason I didn't report it was because when I saw it there were only several hours left before it was ending.
I am normally for price transparency even if prices go to $0 (or below) but will object including this auction in EBay prices thread since it is misleading and conveys pricing info that is simply incorrect. 



jarta said:


> But, a price is a price is a price.   ...   eom


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## jarta (Dec 29, 2010)

mstoyanov,   ...   When I said the price is the price is the price, I was responding to DanCali who felt the discussion on this thread about the 2nd auction should not even be occurring.  I think it is ripe for discussion because of the unusual price and circumstances.

However, I don't think any ebay auction sales should be considered as comparable to sales that occur without duress with a willing buyer and seller under no compulsion or time restriction to sell or buy.

Is the niche ebay market something to keep in mind when looking for a cheap timeshare (or one suitable for trading)?  Of course.  Can posting about the results of auctions stir the competitive juices to beat the last auction price and drive down prices for ebay sales?  Sure.  And, that can be done because the market is niche, the inventory is quite limited (mostly undesirable off weeks which only have trade value) and the auctions are time-restricted on ebay.

But, the price is the price is the price.  The reasons the auction end price may not be a valid indication of market value are usually varied and something that should be discussed on TUG.  And they have been.

I don't think we really disagree except about whether ebay sales are indications of true market value.   ...   eom


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## jarta (Dec 29, 2010)

mstoyanov,   ...   "The only reason I didn't report it was because when I saw it there were only several hours left before it was ending."

fastjunkremovers and the ad for WKORV, week 50, Unit 3112/14 are relisted. 21 hours left.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-WESTIN-KAAN...80609504861?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4155a13e5d

You now have your chance to act.   ...   eom


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## DanCali (Dec 29, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I actually thought that this thread was great since I suspected it was a scam, but everyone's observations around how to judge this helped me confirm my suspicions.  Next time I will have a sharper eye when it comes to judging ebay auctions.  Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.



If that is the reason the thread was started you could have titled it:

"Is this eBay auction legit?" or

"Has anyone heard of this ebay seller?"

and included a link (that ebay removes after 60 days anyway)

But you chose to list the resort and the price (not to mention that it didn't actually "sell" since the item has been relisted...). And since it sounds like you are looking to buy opportunistically, you probably have an interest in seeing low market values. And there is nothing like posting low prices to create a self-fulfilling prophecy...

I'm don't have much at stake here (I don't even own at this resort) but if you just wanted to see if this was a scam it could have been done better (IMO). And if you are looking to document low prices of eBay auctions for posterity, you can use this thread although most people on this board have stopped doing that.

That said, I am not a moderator and have zero authority on TUG so you can also take my opinion for what its worth...


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## Fredm (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> *If someone is that interested, they should follow eBay auctions *
> 
> Besides, I thought there was an eBay thread dedicated to eBay auctions... Do we need a new thread for every auction?
> 
> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.



I agree completely. 
But, I lost that argument a long time ago.

It is encouraging to see you come around to the minority view


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## DeniseM (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> That said, I am not a moderator and have zero authority on TUG so you can also take my opinion for what its worth...



Dan - You've made a good point here.


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## thinze3 (Dec 29, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Actually, I own a 2 bdm. at this resort, that I bought from the developer, and the post doesn't bother me a bit.  Once I lost $35K, I quit counting. ...



Now there's a timeshare owner taking it with a grain of salt. I bought my Marriott Legends Edge directly from Marriott and have watched the same 2BR platinum units on eBay end with Zero bids starting at $1.  

_I couldn't find an emoticon of someone swimming upstream._



> *Q:* If you are rowing down a river in a canoe and one wheel falls off how many pancakes can you fit in a doghouse?
> *A:* None. Purple ice cream doesn't have any bones.


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## ada903 (Dec 29, 2010)

I noticed lately that more and more tug posts conversations are turned by some members into mean, almost angry comments over everything and anything, as if one were trying to prove the OP is evil, opportunistic, misinformed, ill intended, etc.  Here I am noting a sale that seemed interesting to me, and rocks are coming from all directions.  What's next, you're gonna tell me I should have never been born? I am out of this conversation and many more to come. Happy New Year!


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## DeniseM (Dec 29, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I noticed lately that more and more tug posts conversations are turned by some members into mean, almost angry comments over everything and anything, as if one were trying to prove the OP is evil, opportunistic, misinformed, ill intended, etc.  Here I am noting a sale that seemed interesting to me, and rocks are coming from all directions.  What's next, you're gonna tell me I should have never been born? I am out of this conversation and many more to come. Happy New Year!



Your post was fine and appropriate and obviously generated a lot of interest - don't worry about the nay sayers.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 29, 2010)

ada - do not take it personally

re: eBay sales thread - please read post#1 of eBay thread - iirc - it states caveats of eBay sales.  Just because it is a completed auction does not mean that the TS was successfully transferred. Nor does it mean that this is the fair-market value.  It is for informational purposes (w/ caveats) that is better than no information.  IMO - and why I started the thread.

SVO Tuggers (active and lurkers) represent a very (very) small fraction of overall SVO VOIs


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## siesta (Dec 29, 2010)

ada, ignore them. I have come to learn a lot of people have many different vested interests for why they might not like what you are saying. You are very helpful to us tuggers with your sightings posts, and I for one am very much interested in what interests you.  Please keep posting. Cheers.


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## ada903 (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks all for the kind words!


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## Robert D (Dec 29, 2010)

I noticed that the auction in question has been canceled by Ebay. Looks like it was a scam.


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## jarta (Dec 29, 2010)

Don't know whether it's a scam or not.  But,

the expired first auction has been removed by ebay.  However, the relisted and current second auction for WKORV, week 50, units 3112/14 by fastjunkremovers is still going strong with about 10.5 hours left.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-WESTIN-KAAN...80609504861?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4155a13e5d   ...   eom


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## mstoyanov (Dec 30, 2010)

Jarta, thanks for pointing me to the new auction. I just reported it to EBay. 
Lets see how long it will take them to kill it. Hopefully they will lock the seller account too.


jarta said:


> mstoyanov,   ...   "The only reason I didn't report it was because when I saw it there were only several hours left before it was ending."
> 
> fastjunkremovers and the ad for WKORV, week 50, Unit 3112/14 are relisted. 21 hours left.
> 
> ...


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## J&JFamily (Dec 30, 2010)

jarta said:


> Don't know whether it's a scam or not.  But,
> 
> the expired first auction has been removed by ebay.  However, the relisted and current second auction for WKORV, week 50, units 3112/14 by fastjunkremovers is still going strong with about 10.5 hours left.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-WESTIN-KAAN...80609504861?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4155a13e5d   ...   eom



The ad has been removed.


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## jarta (Dec 30, 2010)

mstoyanov,


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## paluamalia (Dec 30, 2010)

*I agree*



DanCali said:


> If someone is that interested, they should follow eBay auctions
> 
> Besides, I thought there was an eBay thread dedicated to eBay auctions... Do we need a new thread for every auction?
> 
> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.



The sale, let alone the price, is not verified.  It's "cyber gossip"....these units rent weekly for more than that price, at least mine do.


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## zinger1457 (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Lastly - do you really think these threads don't contribute to the low resale price of what you own? Now every buyer will expect (or at least try) to get a 2BR for $3899... People remember the price, not the shady seller who got it (not to mention the link goes away in 60 days but the thread stays forever.



This forum is filled with discussions (high MF's, ease of exchanging into with lower cost resorts, foreclosures, etc.) that would dissuade most prospective WKORV buyers who read TUG.  I'm not saying I'm against the discussions since it's helped me out. It's certainly a big help to those considering making a purchase but it's not unreasonable to think that reducing the pool of potential buyers is going to impact resale values.


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> This forum is filled with discussions (high MF's, ease of exchanging into with lower cost resorts, foreclosures, etc.) that would dissuade most prospective WKORV buyers who read TUG.  I'm not saying I'm against the discussions since it's helped me out. It's certainly a big help to those considering making a purchase but it's not unreasonable to think that reducing the pool of potential buyers is going to impact resale values.



Discussions are one thing. And I don't think knowing that SDO trades to hawaii easily off season will impact resale values for mandatory resorts because if people can't travel off season or simply prefer to call and make a points reservation than SDO is irrelevant.

But I do think (and apparently I'm not alone) that posting actual purchase prices creates an environment where the low price is the "price to beat". And when that low price is an outlier from a transaction that was never consummated it's even worse. The title of this thread is provocative, false (the week never sold), and also has nothing to do with the OP's intent (according to her, she wanted to see if the seller was legit). 

If someone is in the market to buy a timeshare they should spend the time on their own researching prices. That's what I did... Us doing the homework for them and posting prices here for the next generation to see doesn't help us in any way, as owners.


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Us doing the homework for them and posting prices here for the next generation to see doesn't help us in any way, as owners.



TUG is all about the free flow of ideas and exchange of information about timesharing.  Posting low sales prices may not help owners...but it certainly helps buyers.  It's also perfectly legitimate...as is a discussion of auctions on eBay...whether the sales actually close or not.  

Trying to stifle conversation about low resale prices in order to protect the equity of current owners is just a wee bit like developers trying to block any access to, or mention of, TUG in order to protect their interests.  No one should be made to feel bad for posting low prices on TUG.  

Steve


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

Steve said:


> Posting low sales prices may not help owners...but it certainly helps buyers.




I will just say again that this item did not actually "sell" because it was relisted 24 hours later (and that auction subsequently removed)



Steve said:


> Trying to stifle conversation about low resale prices in order to protect the equity of current owners is just a wee bit like developers trying to block any access to, or mention of, TUG in order to protect their interests.  No one should be made to feel bad for posting low prices on TUG.
> 
> Steve



This is not about stifling conversation and or making someone feel bad. Certainly neither of those was my intent. As a buyer of 4 VOIs in the past year, I too appreciate any information I can get. But, IMO, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that these types of posts can hurt owners (as you and others agree). As an owner, I can only hope people at least think more carefully before posting prices, especially irrelevant ones with provocative titles. And if I was too blunt in my words and someone got offended then I apologize...

IMO, there is also nothing wrong with posting that this forum has a dedicated thread (active for almost 3 years) for eBay sales, which also includes many eBay "sales". As a moderator, I think you will agree that is probably the right place for these types of posts...


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## ondeadlin (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> IMO, there is also nothing wrong with posting that this forum has a dedicated thread (active for almost 3 years) for eBay sales, which also includes many eBay "sales". As a moderator, I think you will agree that is probably the right place for these types of posts...



I agree there is nothing wrong with pointing out that there is such a dedicated thread.

I also think there's nothing wrong with posting an interesting price, be it high or low. I might check the dedicated thread once every few months, so a separate thread is more likely to catch my interest.


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## LisaRex (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But, IMO, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that these types of posts can hurt owners (as you and others agree). As an owner, I can only hope people at least think more carefully before posting prices, especially irrelevant ones with provocative titles.



So _Wall Street Journal_ reporters should be careful when they report how steeply prices have dropped in the Phoenix housing market because they are harming people who want to sell their home?  Sorry, I can't get on board with that.  TUG is a Timeshare User Group, not a Timeshare Reseller. Our agenda should be to provide a forum to freely and respectfully discuss our timeshares.  End of story.  Obviously, current sales prices are pertinent to both current and future Tug members.  

Besides, I'd find it completely hypocritical of us to say that telling folks to "Rescind!" is kosher because it suits our purpose, but reporting resale data is verboten because it might not.  Yuck.  

I own OF at WKORV-N, but have since realized that OF views are superior on the south side. Does it pain me that this is the truth? Yes.  Will it hurt me if/when I want to sell my VOI? Undoubtedly.  Would I ever expect my fellow Tuggers to quit advising people to target OF south because it diminishes the value of my own VOI?  Never!

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> So _Wall Street Journal_ reporters should be careful when they report how steeply prices have dropped in the Phoenix housing market because they are harming people who want to sell their home?



There is a big difference... House prices are public information and accessible by anyone via websites like zillow.com or public records. Give me your address and I can tell you in a matter of minutes what you paid for your house. I even had a colleague at work who would look up his girlfriends' parents' houses on the Internet to see how affluent they were (and that was over a decade ago with many fewer tools to work with)... He was a good friend but I'd tell my daughter to stay away. The point is that a reporter is just reporting what is already public knowledge. 

Not so with timeshares. One could argue that eBay is "public knowledge" but only if someone follows it religiously. Otherwise, you only see the last 60 days of history... Putting prices on TUG changes that. So I do think it's different...

Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is debatable and depends who you are...

Added: Another important difference is that a reporter operates under certain standards. If they report something, they try to make sure it's true. And if they report something inaccurate and it ends up harming someone financially or otherwise, there is probably some legal liability there..


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## LisaRex (Dec 30, 2010)

First of all, ebay is public, as you say.  Secondly, Tug itself has compiled a database of timeshare sales. 

http://tug2.com/TugMembers/OtherMembersOnly.aspx?PageName=SHD


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> First of all, ebay is public, as you say.



I also pointed out it's only a 60 day history. You won't find many timeshares at most resorts sold in that span... Some resorts or views (e.g. WKORV OFC, WKV 1BR Plat) may not have any sales in the past 60 days.



LisaRex said:


> Secondly, Tug itself has compiled a database of timeshare sales.
> 
> http://tug2.com/TugMembers/OtherMembersOnly.aspx?PageName=SHD



Yes, I do know about that database. Its existence doesn't make the arguments against it any less valid...


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## ada903 (Dec 30, 2010)

I did not realize my observation was going to generate a tempest in a teapot. Actually the selling price does have some relevance - it represents how much a buyer willing to take a risk on a shaky seller is willing to pay.  

You cannot control what the market does, even if you were to achieve some consensus on tug that we should not discuss very low priced sales (which is not realistic, thank God it is a free country still!!), a well informed buyer will do enough research and obtain sufficient information to judge a realistic price.  Putting your head in the ground like an ostrich won't deter market forces from their natural trends. 

What I do understand is that there are some vested interests on this Board - perhaps some in the resale business - who are getting pretty desperate about the sliding prices.  So go ahead, keep stirring the teapot.


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## LisaRex (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Yes, I do know about that database. Its existence doesn't make the arguments against it any less valid...



That database is actually the reason I joined.  I wanted to see if the price I was going to offer on a Starwood unit was a reasonable price. 

If you seriously want to continue your fight against an informal or formal database, then all I can do is wish you good luck and hope that you don't succeed.  I don't agree with you on this particular matter but appreciate your perspective.


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> That database is actually the reason I joined.  I wanted to see if the price I was going to offer on a Starwood unit was a reasonable price.
> 
> If you seriously want to continue your fight against an informal or formal database, then all I can do is wish you good luck and hope that you don't succeed.  I don't agree with you on this particular matter but appreciate your perspective.



I'm not going to fight that fight. It's a lost cause.

But if you ever decide to sell your week and get an offer of $3899, don't blame it on the economy...


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## Fredm (Dec 30, 2010)

ada903 said:


> What I do understand is that there are some vested interests on this Board - perhaps some in the resale business - who are getting pretty desperate about the sliding prices.  So go ahead, keep stirring the teapot.



ada903,

I am in the resale business. 
I guess that makes me the "vested interest" you refer to.

Well, your perspective of a "vested interest" could not be further from reality.

As a broker, I don't care what the market price is. I care about selling the listing. Most sales pay the same commission, as we charge a minimum irrespective of the sale price. For example, we are paid the exact same commission on a $1,500 sale and a $15,000 sale. 
On the other hand, owners should care. Every buyer becomes an owner.

Those that know me (hopefully) will attest that I DO care about sellers and buyers getting fair, honest, and professional treatment.

This is where my aversion to ebay postings comes in.

My beef with ebay postings has nothing to do with prices, per se (although I do believe ebay has done more to damage values than the economy has). As stated, I don't benefit monetarily from most price points. IMO ebay is populated by PCC scum that engage in unethical, immoral, and borderline illegal business practices.
It is also my view that posting ebay auctions here on TUG serves to legitimize and encourage those unsavory business practices. 
I have argued my opinions about this on TUG to no avail in the past. 
I do not wish to reopen that debate. I realize that most do not share my point of view (or rather don't care so long as they benefit from the ill-begotten goods).

So, I ask you to be careful about your self-righteous characterizations.
The only vested interest who benefits from ebay are buyers (and the PCC's they feed). That is, until they are an owner.

My "resale business" cares about the integrity of the marketplace in ways some self-righteous owners have not yet begun to think about. In that I do very much have a vested interest.


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## ada903 (Dec 30, 2010)

I can see your point on why you dislike the ebay listings, and indeed most listings come from folks who are doing unethical things, albeit not always illegal things.

I just don't see how discussing what happens on ebay prevents it from happening, or prevents any of its consequences.

We really should stop beating this dead horse.



Fredm said:


> ada903,
> 
> I am in the resale business.
> I guess that makes me the "vested interest" you refer to.
> ...


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## Fredm (Dec 30, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I can see your point on why you dislike the ebay listings, and indeed most listings come from folks who are doing unethical things, albeit not always illegal things.
> 
> I just don't see how discussing what happens on ebay prevents it from happening, or prevents any of its consequences.
> 
> We really should stop beating this dead horse.



I wasn't beating this horse at all until you decided to gratuitously throw me under the bus:

*"What I do understand is that there are some vested interests on this Board - perhaps some in the resale business - who are getting pretty desperate about the sliding prices. So go ahead, keep stirring the teapot."*

Or, were you referring to another poster in this thread who is in the resale business?


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## ada903 (Dec 30, 2010)

The idiot is back:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marriotts-Waiohai-Beach-Club-/280609947552?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4155a7ffa0


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## Robert D (Dec 30, 2010)

Fredm said:


> As a broker, I don't care what the market price is. I care about selling the listing. Most sales pay the same commission, as we charge a minimum irrespective of the sale price. For example, we are paid the exact same commission on a $1,500 sale and a $15,000 sale.
> 
> My "resale business" cares about the integrity of the marketplace in ways some self-righteous owners have not yet begun to think about. In that I do very much have a vested interest.



Fred, it seems to me you care greatly about what the market price is. If you're charging the same commission regardless of what the price is, then your services become not viable when the price of a TS falls below the price of your commission, which I assume must be $500 - $1,000.  I happen to really like Ebay and feel it allows the common man like me buy a lot of stuff (not just TS's) at wholesale prices and cut out the middle man. If your business is being the middle man, then I fully understand why you wouldn't like Ebay, and that's fair enough. Regarding some of the people who sell TS's on Ebay, a lot of them aren't girl scouts but last time I checked the TS salesmen who work for developers aren't girl scouts either.


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## ada903 (Dec 31, 2010)

It's econ 101 reasoning that falling prices do affect the likelihood of getting that fixed commission.  If I sell my timeshare for $10,000, I am ok giving you that $1,000 commission.  But if I sell it for $1,000, am I ok giving you that same fixed commission?


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## siesta (Dec 31, 2010)

the day people realize that there truly is no equity in their timeshare, is a day they can see these ebay postings and not be bothered.  

if you bought a timeshare for thousands of dollars under the pretense that it has equity based on the inflated developer pricing, you are in for a rough ride if not already on it.  And whatever price the market is commanding can easily change with increased MF, poor management, peoples general displeasure with starwood, not from someone posting what price they got it for; in fact the price they got it for is directly correlated with the reasons stated above(and others).

When I posted I got my SDO for $160 and free closing, ada you congratulated me, others said, "why post that, now people think that is the price to beat" let them, and good luck to them beating that price, I didn't buy my timeshare hoping to sell it for what I got it for, or to recoup some of my out of pocket expenses down the road. to those that did, sorry but in a few years you won't even want to waste your breath. next time, don't invest so much into something, so you don't have as much to lose.


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## ada903 (Dec 31, 2010)

I agree.  I never bought a timeshare thinking it would yield equity and become an investment.  I did get lucky and sold a few for a meager profit but not on purpose - just because we realized we wanted something different. 

Most of us here on tug watch prices because we want to make sure we are getting a good deal on selling or buying what we plan to use, not because our pants are shaking watching our "equity" grow or shrink.  As a rule of thumb, when I buy, I am ready to accept that I may have to sell my week for $1, pay the closing costs, and give the buyer some incentive years down the road.  But what I get out of my usage meanwhile is worth it to me.  

Affordable vacations that create unforgettable memories for my family, that's where the equity resides.



siesta said:


> the day people realize that there truly is no equity in their timeshare, is a day they can see these ebay postings and not be bothered.
> 
> if you bought a timeshare for thousands of dollars under the pretense that it has equity based on the inflated developer pricing, you are in for a rough ride if not already on it.  And whatever price the market is commanding can easily change with increased MF, poor management, peoples general displeasure with starwood, not from someone posting what price they got it for; in fact the price they got it for is directly correlated with the reasons stated above(and others).
> 
> When I posted I got my SDO for $160 and free closing, ada you congratulated me, others said, "why post that, now people think that is the price to beat" let them, and good luck to them beating that price, I didn't buy my timeshare hoping to sell it for what I got it for, or to recoup some of my out of pocket expenses down the road. to those that did, sorry but in a few years you won't even want to waste your breath. next time, don't invest so much into something, so you don't have as much to lose.


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## sui (Dec 31, 2010)

I personally am grateful to this post, as a newbie who's still on the research stage, I would probably make many mistakes that have been discussed in this thread. Now I know how to look at ebay listings for suspicious actions, and be reasonable on prices.


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## Fredm (Dec 31, 2010)

Robert, I specialize in Starwood and Marriott VO.
Our commission schedule is the greater of 10% of the sale price, or, $1,500.

When I say "I don't care", I mean it makes no commission difference to me, for example, if  WMH sells for 3k, instead of 6k. But, WMH owners should care.
No question that our commissions have been lowered for sales above 15k. A WKORV OFD that sold for 40k several years ago, sells for 25k today. But, that's the way it is. I still make an honest living.

For those Starwood and Marriott timeshare owners whose market value is below $1,500, I readily advise them to take a free ad on TUG. A few decide to list with us and pay the difference. But, all appreciate the candor and honest dealings.
Infrequently, we come across a Starwood or Marriott seller who would have otherwise paid a PCC $3,500, while assisting a buyer purchase a great value. Real win-win propositions. 


My comments were a retort to the statement made by ada903 concerning desperate vested interests. 
The vested interest in ebay pricing is the timeshare buyer, not me.

I am not against ebay, per se. It is a segment of the market. Not THE MARKET.
Buyers, like you, who enjoy shopping on ebay can score some great values, subject to the foibles of that marketplace. 
I have been among those here on TUG who have offered advice to help ebay buyers when they get into trouble because of those foibles.

Fact of the matter is that our business is reputation based. Referrals are our lifeblood. So, I guard that reputation jealously.  Hence, my reaction to gratuitous comments made by others. 

Starwood and Marriott ebay buyers will become sellers at some point. At that time they may be looking for a broker, not dumping it on ebay. So market activity is situational, human nature being what it is.
The part I find interesting is the complaining that goes on when prices are lower than those very owners would like them to be. 
As DanCali said, "But if you ever decide to sell your week and get an offer of $3899, don't blame it on the economy..."

Meanwhile, I will do what I have always done. Professionally transact timeshares, protecting buyer and seller interests in the process. It's an honest living I can feel good about.

A Happy and Healthy New Year to all!


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## LisaRex (Dec 31, 2010)

Fredm said:


> The part I find interesting is the complaining that goes on when prices are lower than those very owners would like them to be. As DanCali said, "But if you ever decide to sell your week and get an offer of $3899, don't blame it on the economy..."



No one likes to see the value of something that they own go down, including me.  But trying to suppress the data that supports that fact that our VOIs have been significantly devalued in the last few years is akin to not stepping on the scale because you're afraid of the number.  It is what it is.  

I completely understand the argument against PCCs who charge sellers a large upfront fee and then mislead them into believing that they have washed their hands of their TS, when in reality they have done very little, sold nothing, and the owner is still on the hook for the MFs. That is completely unethical and illegal, and soils the reputation of good, honest agents.

However, I have no issues with a TS reseller who charges an owner a high upfront fee to get rid of his TS, then turns around and sells it to some bargain hunter on ebay for a few hundred bucks. Why? Because there was a meeting of the minds, and the reseller did EXACTLY what he was contracted to do -- find a buyer so that the seller could be relieved of his TS responsibility.  Whether the seller could have made a nice profit by using an agent, or posting it for free on TUG instead of an e-reseller is irrelevant.  He didn't bother to try and find a reputable agent, and his laziness came at a price. 

If the end result is that the price of all of our TSs are diminished, there's little we can do about it.  We can't stop the fair market from doing what it will.  The best we can do is to recognize that the playing field has changed and adapt to take advantage of the new reality.    

Happy New Year back to you, Fred.  Be assured that if I ever put my VOI on the market, you'd be who I listed my TS with.  That's not to say that I won't cringe when you tell me what it's worth.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 31, 2010)

As said many times - SVO Tuggers represent a very (very) small percentage SVO owners - therefore what is reported here in regards to eBay prices has neglible effect on resale values.  Information however - whether bperceived as good or bad - is valuable. It is how the information is interpreted and used that is important.

It is a basic concept...

added - btw - I often give advice that goes against my interest.  heck - all of us that repeat the TUG mantra - 'buy resale' - are stating something that goes against our interest...

Happy New Year.


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## Robert D (Dec 31, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Robert, I specialize in Starwood and Marriott VO.
> Our commission schedule is the greater of 10% of the sale price, or, $1,500.
> 
> When I say "I don't care", I mean it makes no commission difference to me, for example, if  WMH sells for 3k, instead of 6k. But, WMH owners should care.
> ...



Fair Enough.  Happy New Year to you too, Fred.


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## zinger1457 (Dec 31, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> As said many times - SVO Tuggers represent a very (very) small percentage SVO owners - therefore what is reported here in regards to eBay prices has neglible effect on resale values.



I would agree that most of the current SVO owners purchased directly from the developer and did not have the benefit of TUG to help them make their decision.  I have no numbers to back this up but I believe that a fairly significant number of people looking to buy a SVO property resale have probably come across TUG before making a purchase.  A resale buyer already knows the benefit of not buying from the developer and will more than likely do some additional research to determine what an appropriate resale value is.  All one has to do is google 'starwood vacation ownership' and TUG is one of the first non-starwood sites to show up.


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## DeniseM (Dec 31, 2010)

Just in case anyone doesn't know, FredM is a long-time TUG member with a sterling reputation on TUG.  His business has an A+ rating with the BBB.

He is one of the most knowledgeable posters on TUG, and if I was looking for a TS broker, he'd be my first choice.

That of course is my personal opinion, and not as a representative of TUG.


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## M&JJ (Jan 1, 2011)

ada903 said:


> The idiot is back:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Marriotts-Waiohai-Beach-Club-/280609947552?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4155a7ffa0



For anyone interested... this item sold


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## J&JFamily (Jan 2, 2011)

M&JJ said:


> For anyone interested... this item sold



No it didn't.  The ad was removed.


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## M&JJ (Jan 2, 2011)

J&JFamily said:


> No it didn't.  The ad was removed.



Curious.  When I clicked on the link it said that an offer of $1,600 was accepted and it showed that the auction had ended.  Now it says removed.  I dont understand.  I only hope that someone doesnt/didnt get scammed.


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## ada903 (Jan 2, 2011)

I reported the fraud to ebay as soon as I saw the listing, but it was still there days later.  Probably someone purchased it and then figured out it was a scam and ebay removed it.  Not sure if the buyer had already paid for it..


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