# Has anyone attended a sales tour this week?



## CA Richard (Jun 24, 2010)

Just wondering if anyone has attended a sales tour this week and can give us a report on Marriott's approach to selling their new product (points), getting owners to enroll in the new system, any special incentives to "buy now", etc?


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## kbreth (Jun 24, 2010)

We attended this morning at Oceanwatch.  They tried to sell us additional points of 1,000 extra a year (minumum amount to purchase ) for a 10 year loan at the 9.9% at $125 month payment w/$920 down (if I remember correctly) If we had purchased then we would get 1100 bonus points to use within a year.  One day only offer.

We currently own decent weeks.  Our current 2 weeks would turn into 6150 points a year.  If we had purchased the additional points today they would waive the $695 enrollment charge and the $199 fee.  But since we don't want to have more debt we decided to wait and see how the system goes and can still enroll and get the 800 bonus points by Dec 31.


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## Cindala (Jun 24, 2010)

We are scheduled to check into Marriott's Grande Chateau on Saturday and they already called us and sent an email to arrange for us to attend a meeting. They prefaced both the call and email with our requests for room assignment, location, etc. Almost made us feel like if we didn't schedule a meeting, our requests wouldn't be met. 
We left it up in the air, based on our schedule if we would go. We are one of those with one week where the points system does not benefit us, so we won't be joining.


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## jimf41 (Jun 25, 2010)

kbreth said:


> We attended this morning at Oceanwatch.  They tried to sell us additional points of 1,000 extra a year (minumum amount to purchase ) for a 10 year loan at the 9.9% at $125 month payment w/$920 down (if I remember correctly) If we had purchased then we would get 1100 bonus points to use within a year.  One day only offer.
> 
> We currently own decent weeks.  Our current 2 weeks would turn into 6150 points a year.  If we had purchased the additional points today they would waive the $695 enrollment charge and the $199 fee.  But since we don't want to have more debt we decided to wait and see how the system goes and can still enroll and get the 800 bonus points by Dec 31.



Wow! That's $8.36 a point. They're discounting them already and the week isn't over yet. I really wish they'd stop that " Only for today.." nonsense. It's such a weak sales line.


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## tlwmkw (Jun 25, 2010)

We took a tour here at Surfwatch. The sales guy didn't seem to know that much about the points system- mostly he had "buzzwords" that he kept trotting out (like " your home resort will be all the resorts" and "flexibility" and "this is leaps and bounds ahead of all other timeshare groups"). We had many questions for him about the new system and he ended up leaving to ask someone for answers- I think he was frustrated that we wouldn't let him just steamroll through his presentation. He answered many questions in a doubtful way even when he had an answer. Kept wanting to show us how we could use points to get one night here and another night there and still ski for a day in Colorado. I asked "why would we fly all the way to Colorado foe one night?"- no answer. I was hoping to get more accurate info about the points but he didn't really have the info and just wanted to make a sale. Tug or calling direct seem to be best sources of info. Biggest problem is that even if you call the Marriott folks don't seem to all interpret things in the same way- it's really a work in progress at this point.

tlwmkw


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## chubster22 (Jun 25, 2010)

We attended the presentation at Lakeshore Reserve.  They tried to sell us more points. When it was clear that we were not going to buy more points, or join the points system, the salesman told us that if he were in our situation with our weeks (Frenchman's cove and Lakeshore Reserve) he would not join either.  And he did not want to waste our time.  He kept repeating that "our world" has not changed.  We can still trade weeks in II.  We pointed out that our weeks have devalued, that if we join the program we can no longer stay at our resort for the week that we have.  He did not have an answer.  My wife pointed our that Marriott is running this like a used cars sales, we trade in and get devalued, then realize that we made a mistake and try to get our week (car) back and it cost us more money.  I asked him what happened to all of the "loyalty" that we talked about in my sales presentations?  Why is Marriott skimming points off of their owners? His answer was "your world has not changed".  We asked what happens when Marriott builds a new property?  Can we exchange in like the people who bought 10 years ago can trade into the newest Marriott's.  No answer.  

We are both really upset about this bait and switch.  I know that Marriott is a business, but I thought that they would show some loyalty to their owners.  

We will not join the "points program" and I hope that I can trade into some good properties and that Marriott has not taken all of the good weeks.


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## Clark (Jun 25, 2010)

Over the last few days I have been sending an email to all ownertrades.com members telling them about the new Marriott system (Roadrunner limits me to 500 emails a day). Turns out one of them took a tour the day after it was announced, and sent me this which he suggested I share with others:

---

Clark,

Thanks for the note. We happened to be on vacation at our home resort this week and scheduled our annual tour the day after the program was announced. The Marriott people were really confused on positioning the new program and it really sounded like crap. It seems Marriott has been struggling to sell new ownership, so they have decided to go after the current customers for more points and to join this new system for $595 and $165 annual dues for standard or $199 a year for premium(owners that have more than 6500 points) and there was some higher premium plus level.  The premium supposively provides the ability to book 13 months in advance and I have no idea what the premium plus give.  It just so happened that they rated our ownership at 6450 points and were trying to sell us more points to get to premium. The only catch is that the minimum number points you can purchase is 1000 at a $10 a point, but the the introductory price was $9.20 if we acted during the tour. They were looking for us to spend $9,200.  

I declined all theire offers and plan to use our current property and get more active in ownertrades.com.  

Feel free to spread the details with others

Thanks,

George


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Wow! That's $8.36 a point. They're discounting them already and the week isn't over yet. I really wish they'd stop that " Only for today.." nonsense. It's such a weak sales line.



I think it's still $9.20 per point. Remember, they ask for 10% down and the down payment was $920.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> We took a tour here at Surfwatch. The sales guy didn't seem to know that much about the points system- mostly he had "buzzwords" that he kept trotting out (like " your home resort will be all the resorts" and "flexibility" and "this is leaps and bounds ahead of all other timeshare groups"). We had many questions for him about the new system and he ended up leaving to ask someone for answers- I think he was frustrated that we wouldn't let him just steamroll through his presentation. He answered many questions in a doubtful way even when he had an answer. Kept wanting to show us how we could use points to get one night here and another night there and still ski for a day in Colorado. I asked "why would we fly all the way to Colorado foe one night?"- no answer. I was hoping to get more accurate info about the points but he didn't really have the info and just wanted to make a sale. Tug or calling direct seem to be best sources of info. Biggest problem is that even if you call the Marriott folks don't seem to all interpret things in the same way- it's really a work in progress at this point.
> 
> tlwmkw



This is what's frustrating me the most about this new program. Getting accurate and reliable information from their reps. Marriott could have and should have done a better prep job for the new program. But, if their intention is mainly to sell new prospects and just let the legacy owners sign up as a courtesy, then this is about what I would expect.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> This is what's frustrating me the most about this new program. Getting accurate and reliable information from their reps. Marriott could have and should have done a better prep job for the new program. But, if their intention is mainly to sell new prospects and just let the legacy owners sign up as a courtesy, then this is about what I would expect.




Doug, I agree with you.  They trained their entire staff in a tiny 3 day window, and something as big as this (i.e MAJOR CHANGES) should have had a much longer training window.

You can see the results of the short training via the conflicting answers that Marriott is providing to the many, many questions.


.


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## CA Richard (Jun 27, 2010)

Anybody else been to a tour?


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## RedHook (Jun 27, 2010)

*Yes*

I went on the tour at Frenchman's Cove. Fortunately, they are not yet licensed to sell this program there, so the salesman wasn't putting any pressure at all. He seemed to focus on all of the non-traditional ways to use points: African safari, Hummer tours, China, etc. The only incentive was the 800 points that we all know about. I had to nail him down on one thing: he danced around the point-banking system. Finally got him to admit that I cannot save up my points for several years to take the whole extended family to Hawaii for three weeks.


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## Lisa Loves Maui (Jun 27, 2010)

*Marriott's New Point System*



CA Richard said:


> Just wondering if anyone has attended a sales tour this week and can give us a report on Marriott's approach to selling their new product (points), getting owners to enroll in the new system, any special incentives to "buy now", etc?



Yes, we just attended one this week.  In a nut shell what we walked away with understanding is that they will no longer be selling resort locations but points.  You can now apparently exchange directly thru Marriott vs. Interval and it is now on a point system.  You can stay with the current program if you like your resort or convert over to the points system.  If you go to the points system you are given an allotment of points for your week(s) at your location which you can then use towards a week in another location.  Point values vary dependent upon location, time of year wanting to book and size of unit.  You can buy more points which can upgrade you to a higher status allowing you to book 13 months out.  When you buy more points you also pay a yearly maintenance fee for the points. We just weren't totally convinced this is the way to go and want to gain a better understanding of the whole program before going this route.  Would love to hear if anyone is now going the points route and how it is working for them!  Also if anyone has a better take on what they heard - would like to know that too!


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## davidvel (Jun 27, 2010)

I was thinking of it and the wife even suggested it, but they never offered any incentive, so I ignored them.


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## tlwmkw (Jun 27, 2010)

I posted above about our tour at Surfwatch.  I was on an iphone so couldn't write much- at home now and can use the desktop.

One thing that was funny was that the sales guy said that the price will soon rise to $13- "these are pre-construction prices- such a great deal".  I said what do you mean pre-construction? Nothing is being built- only this points program which is already done.  He had no answer for that.  Also asked when will the price go up- "Soon, very soon"  but no real answer.

He said that of people who toured 86% of current owners were enrolling and 35% were buying more points.  He used an example of a couple who had bought Garden View at Surfwatch and now wish they had bought ocean view.  They bought enough points to allow them to do that.  To me that didn't really make sense because you haven't bought points at that resort and it's already sold out so unless someone gives up their ocean view week how will they get the view?  I thought he had sold them a lot of BS.

He said that the traffic at the tour sites has been "huge" and they are breaking records- I don't believe that.  I asked lots of people at the BBQs and on the elevator and no one was interested in the program and none said that they'd be enrolling.  Most people said "Why would I give them more money?  I bought here to stay here."  It'll be interesting to see what happens.  

We toured to get info about the system but honestly the guy was a good old sales guy and didn't really seem to have much grasp of the system.  These sales guys have learned a few buzz words and that's about it.  Whenever we asked tough questions he would pull out glossy photos of African safaris and cruises and try to show them to us saying "Look what you can get with your points!".  As I mentioned before he left for a long time to get answers to various questions which I thought was pretty unprofessional.  I have gotten more info here on TUG than he had.  Even if you call their "points specialists" they don't know what to tell you and all contradict each other.  I feel like I can convince them one way or another since they don't really know what's going on either.

It's a hugh mess as far as I'm concerned.

tlwmkw


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## musical2 (Jun 27, 2010)

I received an invitation today to see a 90 minute presentation at the Marriott Grand Chateau in Las Vegas when we arrive on Friday.  The invitation offers 10.000 Marriott Reward Points or $75 Gift Card (Visa Debit, Morton’s or Mon Ami Gabi).

I haven't decided whether to attend or not.  I usually don't waste time at these things.  I traded my Manor Club for this through II.  It seemed an easy trade, I don't know why I would go for points.


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## californiagirl (Jun 27, 2010)

RedHook said:


> I went on the tour at Frenchman's Cove. Fortunately, they are not yet licensed to sell this program there, so the salesman wasn't putting any pressure at all.



So what are they selling at FC?  Are they still selling weeks?  I know I can trade my FC week for points.  This is interesting.


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## mpizza (Jun 27, 2010)

I did a tour today as I really wanted accurate information and thought an in person on-site meeting would be the best way.   It was a waste of my time.

The salesman had so much misinformation and his computer system didn't work.  I had to log-in and show him that legacy owners could enroll right on the Marriott Vacation Club website and how to play with the points calculator.  He was also confused about trading for Marriott reward points.  

I asked how title of the Beneficial Interests was transferred to Destination points owners.  He said they receive a Deed.  Fine, where is the underlying real property the Deed transfers, he said it was a Florida trust.  Fine, where is the Deed recorded?  He didn't know.  

He  did confess that although he had a few sales this week, he had to call the clients back because he sold them packages with wrong information -  like they would have to pay the enrollment fee each year (and they signed-up anyway?). 

Maria


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## dioxide45 (Jun 27, 2010)

mpizza said:


> I asked how title of the Beneficial Interests was transferred to Destination points owners.  He said they receive a Deed.  Fine, where is the underlying real property the Deed transfers, he said it was a Florida trust.  Fine, where is the Deed recorded?  He didn't know.



The deeds conveying each unit to the trust would be recorded in the county where the resort is located.


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## saturn28 (Jun 27, 2010)

mpizza said:


> I did a tour today as I really wanted accurate information and thought an in person on-site meeting would be the best way.   It was a waste of my time.
> 
> The salesman had so much misinformation and his computer system didn't work.  I had to log-in and show him that legacy owners could enroll right on the Marriott Vacation Club website and how to play with the points calculator.  He was also confused about trading for Marriott reward points.
> 
> ...




Marriott’s rollout of the new points system has been a total disaster. Their salespeople don’t know much about what they are selling, their owner services people don’t know what is going on, and I don’t believe that a lot of their supervisors know.

You think that they would have anticipated some of the tough questions they would be asked by their present owners. Especially  why it is that they are being offered less points for their weeks than is required to exchange back into their home resort or any similar Marriott resort during the same season. Or why the 2 halves of a lock-off unit add up to more points than the 2 bedroom.

I just can't believe that they have been planning introducing a points system for years, and this is how they roll it out.


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## mpizza (Jun 27, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The deeds conveying each unit to the trust would be recorded in the county where the resort is located.




That would make sense, but I was told you no longer buy at a home resort, you buy a Beneficial Interest in a Florida trust.  The trust holds all of the real estate backing the Destination points.   

I'm going to follow-up with the contacts Dave M posted.

Maria


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## kedler (Jun 27, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> Marriott’s rollout of the new points system has been a total disaster. Their salespeople don’t know much about what they are selling, their owner services people don’t know what is going on, and I don’t believe that a lot of their supervisors know.
> 
> You think that they would have anticipated some of the tough questions they would be asked by their present owners. Especially  why it is that they are being offered less points for their weeks than is required to exchange back into their home resort or any similar Marriott resort during the same season. Or why the 2 halves of a lock-off unit add up to more points than the 2 bedroom.
> 
> I just can't believe that they have been planning introducing a points system for years, and this is how they roll it out.


We checked into Grande Vista today and signed up for a presentation on the new points system tomorrow afternoon and I will post what, if anything, we learn. The conceirge desk here is working over time and at check in they are making sure everyone gets a letter about the new program which basically just says its wonderful and you should go find out more. The guy who signed us up for the tour offerred us 10K MR, $125 (for afternoon appt), or potentially some unstated park tickets. He used told us we'd love it, its an enhancement, it gives us flexibility, etc. He said they'd been very busy because people want to learn more. 

He told us that Marriott has been planning this for 3-4 years and that they had to do something because some of the week ownership properties were "collosal failures" and mentioned Marco Island, Doral in Miami and some other unnamed planned property that never got off the ground. He said that the program was a lot like DVC but that there was a deed to a percentage ownership in the land trust where DVC is only a RTU lease.

He knew about TUG and knew that some of the early information was on target about the program. He didn't have the answer to the hard questions - like why we aren't getting a 100% of the average for the Gold season at MGV (our percentage is 98 but I didn't mention that) he said that the people doing the presentation will have all the answers. Hummm I have serious doubts about the accuracy of this statement.

I'll let you all know what I learn, if anything, tomorrow night.


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## kedler (Jun 29, 2010)

*Presentation at Grande Vista*

We attended a presentation at Grande Vista today and asked lots and lots of questions. IMO the personnel who are "selling" the new program do not really understand it and clearly they have not read the documents that we are being asked to sign. They have only read the sales training documents Marriott has provided them.

We had spoke with a salesperson who does owner presentations and has been with Marriott for many years and a sales manager. 

First - *there is no answer regarding why Marriott "short changed" its owners when it kept a piece of the pie for itself in determining the point values we will receive if we enroll*. Once they understood my level of knowledge on this issue they stopped trying to say but you get more "flexibility" (clearly the buzz word that came through during the training) acknowledged that the deficit exists in most cases and basically said that it is what it is and they have not control over that decision. We had a lengthy conversation on this topic and of course they said that we didn't need points to make a week reservation at our home resort. 

Based on everything they said (and didn't say) IMO effectively the answer seems to be that because we are being given all these additional options we didn't have before - the conversion rate for week to points reflects that added cost to Marriott.

We were told by the sales manager that *the reason the roll out of this program was kept totally quiet* was because of the resale weeks. Marriott did not want anyone to know that if they bought resale weeks those weeks could be included and would get the right to exchange for MR in the event that the original property had that right. Now that the program is "out" the theory is that no resale week will be included going forward (unless bought from enrolled owner and new enrollment fee paid).

On the subject of *Marriott's ability to change the Points on the Points Chart* - _each MVC Property_ has a fixed number of Points that are deeded and that number will not change however the allocation of the points between different weeks on the chart may change but if they increase one week they must decrease another week. When I said that there were only 11-12 MVC Properties currently in the Land Trust they objected. They contented that all the MVC Properties are in the Land Trust - though they backed off this statement again after I asked how the sold out properties could be in the land trust and said that what they meant was that eventually they will all be in the land trust.

Regarding* our voting rights being curtailed by the documents* neither the sales guy nor the manager had any idea what I was talking about and the sales guy owns three Marriott weeks. They basically said that "legal" stuff is not their job - their job is to sell the program. I asked them how they can sell a program the details of which they don't understand and they said (I'm paraphrasing) they understand the benefits, the flexibility, etc., and that is all they need to understand. I told them I need to understand what I am paying to enroll in before enrolling let alone buying base Points.

On the subject of *inventory and whether there is one pool or two* - the sales guy said that it was all one pool and that he believed that after awhile the II Marriott inventory would dry up except for cancellations of previously reserved weeks. When the manager got into the picture and I asked him the question he said that he wasn't sure he thought it was two pools and promised to email the ex-DVC guy who designed the program and get back to us (I'm not holding my breath but I'll let you know if I get the email). The ex-DVC guy apparently was in the building earlier in the day but he had left. The sales manager didn't seem to think that if we enrolled our weeks and then chose to use them as weeks v. points that we'd have a hard time trading them as weeks in Marriott's new system in the same we'd always done. When I pointed out that Marriott had the right to use deposited weeks as it saw fit he was clueless. He said it only has that right if we chose to exchange our weeks for Points. In the end he wound up advising us to enroll only our developer weeks and not our two Bronze resale weeks even though that advice makes no sense monetarily a fact the sales guy gently mentioned.

For all you *EOY owners* - we were told by the sales guy that because our points total just over 6500 on an EOY basis we would get Premier status at least EOY. I told him that I'd been told that I would not because the EOY points are divided for the purpose of determining your total points for Premier status, which I didn't think was fair as it was my understanding that I couldn't divide my points. The sales manager called "corporate" and they told him that the reason the EOY points are averaged is that you can borrow or bank only those points that you need you do not need to borrow or bank the total points associated with anyone week. Initially they told me that my Club dues would be $199 but with this answer it was revised to $165.

With regard to the *purchase of Beneficial Interests* - 1000 points (4 Beneficial Interests) is the initial minimum that legacy weeks owners can purchase and they will waive up to $695 but not my entire enrollment fee of $1995 (I did not negotiate hard on this subject because I didn't intend to purchase points but they were trying to sell me to get us to Premier status). The cost is 9.20 per point though the manager told us that up until 3 days prior to roll out it was 9.85 per point so he was sure it would go up like DVC point cost has risen. If you purchase 1000 points now you can purchase a minimum of one Beneficial Interest which equals 250 points in the future. I'm told you will never be able to purchase less that one Beneficial Interest because that is how the Land Trust was set up.

*Plus Points* - the sales guy didn't know about the 800 Plus Points for enrolling. The sales manager knew about it but tried to sell us 1000 Points saying that we'd get 1100 Plus Points when I said that would be in addition to the 800 Plus Points for enrolling right he kept side stepping the question. Again I didn't push because we aren't purchasing points though despite all the "nonsense" we probably will enroll. 

The told us this *new program was developed in response to all the complaints of the owners especially complaints about II*. They referenced the survey that Marriott sent out as a piece of the information used to develop the system. They said that II did not always give Marriott weeks the 24 day priority and sometimes kept the "good weeks" for itself. Marriott wanted to stop that by creating its own internal exchange company so that Marriott and Marriott only controlled the exchanges between Marriott owners to ensure that non-Marriott owners who paid small sums of money for their timeshares could not exchange into Marriott resorts in front of Marriott owners. When we told them that we had not had any problems dealing with II and were able to use the system for good exchanges they said that we were in the minority. 

With regard to the *Explorer program*, we love to cruise but usually share a cabin with our children so we asked what happened if we wanted to have 4 in a cabin rather than 2 (the website tells you to call in this scenario) and neither the sales guy or the manager could answer but again I was promised an email answer. When I inquired as to how they can sell a program that they have all the details on they tried to say but they didn't develop this program and these options were a surprise. I was quite frustrated with this answer and they were frustrated with my questions and the sales office was closing so we all called it a day. They know we are here until Sunday and assured us they would get us answers to our questions.

One of the biggest amusements to me in this discussion was when we explained to the sales guy (who owns weeks himself) that we knew about the new program and had read the documents involved in enrolling and he said "how can that be no one is supposed to know"!! I said it was all on Marriott's website for its owners!!:rofl: 

I also told him that I knew the new program was coming from my membership on TUG and he didn't know about TUG. He was an older gentlemen who may not have been so computer savvy. He was nice and tried to give us honest answers but he didn't have them. Clearly Marriott should have trained their staff for more than 3 days. 

We did get two 7 day passes to Universal at a greatly reduced price as our gift - which thrills my teenagers.

Off to the pool and park!!


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## michigander (Jun 29, 2010)

*Thank you*

Thank you so much for this information.  We appreciate all the good hard questions you asked, and also the detailed recording of the reply, or evasion.

It will be interesting to see if you do get answers to the questions they could not answer on the spot.

We too have had excellent trades through II and have no complaints about the current system.   It takes a while to understand, but it works well for us.  We almost always end up with either a better time, higher demand resort,  or upgraded unit by making a trade.   For this, we are content to pay the II fee.


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## wildgrizzly (Jun 29, 2010)

So what happens to the resale units out there now? Will they be excluded completely from the points????


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## pharmgirl (Jun 29, 2010)

wildgrizzly said:


> So what happens to the resale units out there now? Will they be excluded completely from the points????



As time goes on there will be more and more resale units - people who pass away, life changes, children grow up  How can Marriott keep ignoring this growing number of resales that will tie up units that will not be in points?


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## GregT (Jun 29, 2010)

kedler said:


> We attended a presentation at Grande Vista today and asked lots and lots of questions. IMO the personnel who are "selling" the new program do not really understand it and clearly they have not read the documents that we are being asked to sign. They have only read the sales training documents Marriott has provided them.
> 
> We had spoke with a salesperson who does owner presentations and has been with Marriott for many years and a sales manager.
> 
> ...



This is a great summary, thank you!


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## lovemyjeep (Jun 29, 2010)

Hello--First, let me say THANK YOU TUG for all your help and information over the years.* We took a tour yesterday at Koolina for 10,000 points.* Hesitant to take a tour, but knew we had to learn their perspective on the new point system.* First, the salesman, started off with "did you receive any surveys over the past few years--because you the members were the ones who changed the system"* He stated with his 4 ownerships he never received one survey.* Okay--off to a good start.Let him explain the wonderful system for a few minutes then started asking about my dislike to be babysat with only going through a vacation ownership advisor for any trades in the new system.* He checked on this and said maybe in the future you could do this on your own, but almost all people want someone else to do their planning.* Not me. Asked him about our ownership of Maui Ocean Club, previously weeks 1-51, now into different season categories.* He said "could you explain that to me"* It was really getting me disgusted and felt we were being patronized.We are here at Koolina for 2 weeks in 2 bedroom units on a trade using 2 of our studios from Maui.* Believe me, it probably took me 40+ hours of looking online at II to quickly snag these very early in the morning.* First week, new building, 3rd floor, ocean view, next week in mountain view.* He could not believe it.* Said yes the points required can go up, but today the offer is a great one to get in.* Kept stating 1 or 2 days here or there, I said please don't market that way to us because we could care less about that.* He contradicted himself several times--first--our 3 Cypress Harbour units Marriott a few days wouldn't have given us perhaps $200 for, but look Marriott gave you a few thousand points for this.* So I should be thankful?* Marriott was so happy back in 1999 and stated the world of opportunities with Orlando being such a hot destination, yet


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## DMSTWO (Jun 29, 2010)

*The hidden benifit of a free fall resale market*



pharmgirl said:


> As time goes on there will be more and more resale units - people who pass away, life changes, children grow up  How can Marriott keep ignoring this growing number of resales that will tie up units that will not be in points?




Ah! ...now you have touched on the beauty of the system...Marriott doesn't want strong resales.  By limiting the usability of the resale deeded weeks (i.e. not allowing them to join the points program) they artificially drive down the price.  Then they ROFR the low cost sale and place it in the Trust.  Thus they have additional trust weeks to provide the basis for more high $$$ points sales.

Marriott execs didn't get where they are by being stupid.

In retrospect this is probably part of the reason they haven't been exercising ROFR over the past year or so...let the resale market free fall then we (Marriott) can pickup low cost ROFRs at some of the sold out resorts once the new system starts selling enough points to justify expanding the Trust's holdings.


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## lovemyjeep (Jun 29, 2010)

continued--

back then buy buy buy Orlando.

I asked how would we sell any of our weeks now--no one would want them because of the points system/past June 20.  He said Marriott is working on that for resales.  

He stated everyone is signing up for this in droves and get in while the price is good.  

He then tried to wrap up a sale at the end for either the membership or additional points.  We said we weren't doing anything without any writing in place for doing my own searches, nor the blatant skimming, and the seasons changed for Maui Ocean Club versus 1-51 prior.  

Was then offered an Encore package by a saleswoman.  My husband said no, we're getting out of here.  

--Pat


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## Bunk (Jun 29, 2010)

what is an encore package?


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## Ann in CA (Jun 29, 2010)

An Encore Package is usually offered (when you don't buy) for a price (Say $9-1200, for a 5 night package to return to the resort.)  By buying that, it holds the "great offer" they made to you for the sale, and is applied to the price of the Marriott purchase if you later decide to buy.


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## lovemyjeep (Jun 29, 2010)

Bunk--An Encore package was offered for a studio at Koolina for a week, good for 2 years to come back, freezing the prices of the program offering.* I think it was $1099 for the studio.* Also, had different prices for a 1 and 2 bedroom at Koolina.* My husband was ready to get out of there, he didn't even let her explain the prices for the 1 or 2 bedroom.* --Pat


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## Ann in CA (Jun 29, 2010)

We have never been the slightest bit tempted.  Why would I pay over a thousand dollars for a week I purchased as a getaway on II for $212?  (this was at Desert Springs, & also Canyon Villas at presentations while trying to get new program info before it was announced)


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## LAR (Jun 29, 2010)

*Canyon Villas Last Week*

I met with the sales folks at Canyon Villas last Wednesday.  They were just 3 days into the new program and so many answers to my questions came across as uncertain.  (I also noticed a lot of their sales reps had their computer screens on the TUG boards!)  We, too, certainly heard all about the flexibility.  I suppose I've made out better than many others owning an EOY 1BR at MOC (we get 3100 points for it), but I was dismayed by what 3100 points gets me - particularly now that I'd be losing my bonus week with II.

well, the rep calculated that our vacationing pattern (a trade one year and flex change the following - usually to Cypress Harbor) that we were short some 800-900 points.  So they tried to sell me another 1000 points.  

My biggest concern - after the skimming issue - is what I anticipate to be a dramatic drop in my ability to trade via II into another Marriott property - and that's where we tend to go to.  Sales rep didnt see that initially, but by the end of our discussion seemed to acknowledge this.  I explained to the rep that we would join the club at initial prices and that I was doing so because I felt Marriott was essentially compelling me to join.  the 800 points does seem to do a reasonable job of offsetting the $595 fee and over time I should save on II fees with the umbrella club dues.

My second biggest concern was, as I explained to the rep, the possibility that Marriott could change the redemption levels at any time.  It may take 3500 points for a week now, but Marriott could change that any time - similar to what they did to the Marriott Rewards program not so long ago.  The rep explained to me that Marriott could not change the redemption levels as this was deeded property.  Now I'm reading on TUG about Beneficial Trusts etc and I'm waiting for a real estate attorney to explain all this to me!   I've written the sales rep reminding him of what he said to me and asking to be directed to something in writing and have no received a voicemail from him to discuss.  Apparently I will not get this clarified in writing.

We did take the Encore offer (never heard this phrase before til now).  We can return for one week up until end of 2011 for $1800 at which time we could apply the $1800 to the cost of those 1000 points that I suspect I'm going to want in the near future.  Price for those points increases from $9.20 to $10-something.

I suppose the Encore works if you know that you'll be buying the points.  I'm not 100% certain of this yet so I have some anxiety that I should not have signed up for it.  They are guaranteeing me my travel dates which certainly eases the challenges of lining up airfare while avoiding taking the kids out of school.

As an aside, we really liked Canyon Villas - its a dry heat alright! and we are thinking about a post Xmas return in '011 with that Encore.

I resent being placed into a position where I need to spend another $9K to sustain my vacationing patterns, but also understand that those II flex weeks were unreliable and hard to exploit.

One element of flexibility that appeals to me is that I 'should' now be more easily able to access to 2 BR units.  We bought our 1 BR before we had three children and now often finding ourselves trading into destinations based upon our ability to land a 2 BR.  I guess we now have to get used to the idea of only staying 5 nights instead of 7! 

Thanks to everyone for sharing...

LAR


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## LAX Mom (Jun 29, 2010)

What are the Marriott reps saying about the ability to sell your points when you decide it's time to sell?

I have called and asked a couple of reps about this and they couldn't give me an answer. Basically they said if I purchase 5,000 points (or any amount) from them today for $9.20 per point there is currently no option to resale these points. If someone purchases points on the resale market you don't belong to the new Marriott Points Destination club. At this point Marriott doesn't allow resale owners in the points club; owners who have purchased resale weeks or owners who have purchased resale points.

Both reps told me that Marriott is working on something for Points owners who want to sell their points, possibly a resale broker or some official way to purchase points on the resale market. 

But at this time if you purchase points from Marriott you have something with no resale value. It's worth nothing because Marriott will not recogonize a new owner in their points program.

So why would anyone spend $9,200 (or more) to buy points that have no resale value???


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## LAR (Jun 29, 2010)

*No Resale Value ?!*

Well that is a very good point!!!


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## davemy (Jun 29, 2010)

I really don't get peoples logic, when people say well i really don't get enough points for how i normally travel, so i'm going to join and maybe buy more points. (You can't beat them so i better join them! ) How about not join and try to make a STATEMENT! Maybe even look at another timeshare company. That what I'm gunna do.


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## LAX Mom (Jun 29, 2010)

LAR said:


> Well that is a very good point!!!


Several Marriott reps told me (on the phone) that if you purchase points this week and decide to sell them to me next week, I will not be able to enroll those points in the new points program. Currently you can only participate in the points program if you purchase points from Marriott or enroll a week that was purchased (from Marriott or resale) prior to June 20, 2010. 

If you purchase points from someone other than Marriott you are out-of-luck. You can't be enrolled in the new system.


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## davidvel (Jun 29, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Several Marriott reps told me (on the phone) that if you purchase points this week and decide to sell them to me next week, I will not be able to enroll those points in the new points program. Currently you can only participate in the points program if you purchase points from Marriott or enroll a week that was purchased (from Marriott or resale) prior to June 20, 2010.
> 
> If you purchase points from someone other than Marriott you are out-of-luck. You can't be enrolled in the new system.



Will these sales fools ever get anything right? It is an "interest" in real property, remember? If you buy points in the trust you have a right to re-sell them, subject to ROFR, and a $1 per point ROFR _waiver_ fee (more than 10% of current price). 

Then again, I guess they are right, you can sell them, just no chance in hell you'll recoup anything. Funny they are alrady scared of the points resale market.


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## pfrank4127 (Jun 30, 2010)

*Just attended today!*

Nothing real shocking that hasn't already been discussed but a few things stood out to me.

1.  The sales rep said the cost of point is going up to $10 on 9/1/2010

2.  The sales rep checked with the house attorney and said the point system was the same as the Disney system with regards to point allocation and raising the point requirements for a stay.  When I pressed the issue and asked specifically that if points went up at e.g. Hilton Head Surf Watch week then they would be decreased another week specifically at Surf Watch or somewhere within the new "Trust", I never rec'd a specific answer only that they would be decreased.  He also said that this is listed in writing in the initial public offering.  

3.  He claimed that over time the point inventory at sold out resorts would be 51% in the points program.  His math was 36% of owners would trade in there weeks to the points program and 15% of the inventory would come from owners trading in there weeks for Marriott Reward points.

4.  He didn't believe that I could sign up to enroll for the points program online and even went to double check with his manager.  He was actually trying to scare us into converting/enrolling with "if you don't do it today it's going to be too late."

He actually got quite nasty when he realized we weren't going to sign up for anything today and asked why we attended today.  I think he was suprised when I told him to learn from his experience.


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## Bunk (Jun 30, 2010)

If the prices are going up from $9.00 to $10.00 on September 1, we should all hold off doing a sales presentation until after that date.
I know I will feel better knowing that I saved $10,000 by not buying 1,000 points instead of saving $9,000 by not buying those points.
LOL.


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## siberiavol (Jun 30, 2010)

Bunk said:


> If the prices are going up from $9.00 to $10.00 on September 1, we should all hold off doing a sales presentation until after that date.
> I know I will feel better knowing that I saved $10,000 by not buying 1,000 points instead of saving $9,000 by not buying those points.
> LOL.



You gave me a whole new reason to take tours.


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## gblotter (Jun 30, 2010)

*season change for Maui Ocean Club?*



lovemyjeep said:


> ... and the seasons changed for Maui Ocean Club versus 1-51 prior.



As a Maui Ocean Club owner, I have somehow missed this point.  Can someone explain the season change for MMO?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 30, 2010)

gblotter said:


> As a Maui Ocean Club owner, I have somehow missed this point.  Can someone explain the season change for MMO?



I think what they were refering to was that different weeks require different amounts of points. If MMO is typical of most resorts, the points given to an owner by Marriott aren't enough to reserve any week in ones original season.


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## gblotter (Jun 30, 2010)

We are staying at Mountainside this week.  There is a banner advertising the Destinations program, but nothing else.  Nobody has contacted us for a presentation.  There doesn't even seem to be anybody onsite from the sales team to answer questions.  Curious circumstances.  Perhaps Marriott isn't interested in recruiting non-platinum Mountainside weeks into the points pool.

I have no desire to join the points program, so no worries.  But it would have been nice to collect 10K MRP points and watch the sales guy squirm with some of these tough questions.


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## Cindala (Jul 1, 2010)

We are currently at Marriott's Grande Chateau and were contacted by phone and email to set up a time to attend the presentation. We never did, but they have called and left messages at least 4 or 5 times trying this week to get us to attend. We finally told them we just couldn't fit it into our schedule. I don't use Marriott Reward Points and my time is worth more than a $75 gift card. We're not joining. 
I just found it very interesting that they would try so hard to get me; a single week Grande Vista Gold owner.(Orlando!)With the new points system, it would take me 3 years of points to get the 3bdrm unit I traded into through II with a 2bdrm gold. Grande Vista is a sneaky good trader, but the points I would receive in the new system do not reflect that in the least.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 1, 2010)

Cindala said:


> We are currently at Marriott's Grande Chateau and were contacted by phone and email to set up a time to attend the presentation. We never did, but they have called and left messages at least 4 or 5 times trying this week to get us to attend. We finally told them we just couldn't fit it into our schedule. I don't use Marriott Reward Points and my time is worth more than a $75 gift card. We're not joining.
> I just found it very interesting that they would try so hard to get me; a single week Grande Vista Gold owner.(Orlando!)With the new points system, it would take me 3 years of points to get the 3bdrm unit I traded into through II with a 2bdrm gold. Grande Vista is a sneaky good trader, but the points I would receive in the new system do not reflect that in the least.



You're the perfect owner for them to target. One that would have to buy a significant number of points just to do what you've always been able to do in the weeks program.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 1, 2010)

The last several visits to Marriott timeshares we haven't been badgered with phone calls to take the tour. We were usually asked at the concierge desk when picking up our free gift if we wanted to take a tour. We declined and never got phone calls. Perhaps after all those tours of turning down their offers, they gave up.

I am sure the badgering will start again now that they have a new system. While it is nice to pick up 10-15K in MR points for a visit, it just never seems to be worth the time and trouble.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 1, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The last several visits to Marriott timeshares we haven't been badgered with phone calls to take the tour. We were usually asked at the concierge desk when picking up our free gift if we wanted to take a tour. We declined and never got phone calls. Perhaps after all those tours of turning down their offers, they gave up.
> 
> I am sure the badgering will start again now that they have a new system. While it is nice to pick up 10-15K in MR points for a visit, it just never seems to be worth the time and trouble.



There was absolutely no mention of the new program when we were at Mountain Valley lodge this past weekend. This sort of surprised me but, it didn't appear that they had any sales staff remaining on the property. I anticipate a push when we visit Ocean Pointe this fall. They have the new Oceana Palms resort to show off and I'm sure they'll want to try to induce us to purchasing enough additional points to upgrade us from our Ocean Pointe weeks to be able to stay at the newer Oceana Palms. 

If we don't want to go, I'll just tell them upfront. If they persist, I'll tell them why. My bet is, if I have to tell them why, they'll be more than willing to stear clear of us the remainder of the week. 

Then again I may decide that the one fee for all services will work for us so long as it includes full internet access. Then I'll be more than happy to take their incentive gift and sign up at the resort rather than sign up online and only recieve the bonus points. 

There's still time to read, listen and think about which direction will work best for future needs. I see no reason to act now.


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## pfrank4127 (Jul 1, 2010)

Cindala said:


> We are currently at Marriott's Grande Chateau and were contacted by phone and email to set up a time to attend the presentation. We never did, but they have called and left messages at least 4 or 5 times trying this week to get us to attend. We finally told them we just couldn't fit it into our schedule. I don't use Marriott Reward Points and my time is worth more than a $75 gift card. We're not joining.
> I just found it very interesting that they would try so hard to get me; a single week Grande Vista Gold owner.(Orlando!)With the new points system, it would take me 3 years of points to get the 3bdrm unit I traded into through II with a 2bdrm gold. Grande Vista is a sneaky good trader, but the points I would receive in the new system do not reflect that in the least.



we rec'd so many calls for a presentation, everyday at least 2 phone messages to attend.  Finally did agree when they offered $250 rental credit(we are staying a couple of extra days on a cash reservation).  Phone calls have stopped now LOL


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## GeezerGreg (Jul 1, 2010)

*Fees associated for additional point purchases*

From what I have seen on average converting to points gives you 80% of the points it costs you to stay back at your home resort.  I see that this has two impacts:
1) Creates points inventory for Marriott to sell
2) Creates points demand from existing owners needing more points to get vacations they want.

I have three questions:
1) Are there maintenance fees associated with addition points purchased?, and if so do those fees go towards home resort?
2) With points there will be more shorter stays at all resorts resulting in higher housekeeping / front desk costs.  Will weeks owners be responsible for those costs?
3) If you convert to points do you still pay your home resort fees?

Thanks for any responses


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## pfrank4127 (Jul 1, 2010)

GeezerGreg said:


> From what I have seen on average converting to points gives you 80% of the points it costs you to stay back at your home resort.  I see that this has two impacts:
> 1) Creates points inventory for Marriott to sell
> 2) Creates points demand from existing owners needing more points to get vacations they want.
> 
> ...



#1  yes new points purchased will initially have $0.40 maintenance fees associated with them.

#2 there will be increased costs but that is suppossed to be absorbed with the new point owners maintenance fee (and possibly the "skim" depending on who you ask.)

#3 yes if you are a legacy or deeded owner your mintnce fees are what they re bsed on your home resort which could be a ood or bad thing depending on where  you own, how many points your week are allocated, and what your current maintenance fees are.


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## bw3 (Jul 2, 2010)

*sales presentation on HHI*

We decided to attend a sales presentation even though we learned most of what we needed from TUG.  I may have deflated the sales reps enthusiasm when I told her that $9.20 per point was too high when she asked if we had heard anything about the program.  I tried to keep the mood positive by agreeing that the flexibility of adding days to a stay or getting longer stays by trading a 2br for 2 weeks at a 1br was a good thing.  

But then we got to the spread between what Marriott grants vs what they require for the same week.  I referred to it as a hidden cost per trade.  She first tried to defend the difference by saying that nobody would use the points system to trade back into the same resort.  Then I mentioned that 650 points difference at St. Thomas and 300 points difference at Grande Ocean would add up to a huge amount for Marriott for all the weeks in the system.  She then stated that Mr. Marriott runs a for-profit company.  This was the only answer that would have satisfied me since I believe it is the only honest answer.  The cost for us to join would be $1,995 since we own so many weeks purchase outside of Marriott.  We told her we would consider it and get back to her.  She was not pushy at all.

The incentives for points were the one-time amount of 800 if you purchased 1,000 annual (deeded trust) points.  There was another 1,000 on-time points for each additional 500 annual points you purchased.  We told her that we already have enough points if we joined the program so we did not see the need.  She agreed with our perspective.  

She also asked what we paid for our outside weeks ( gold Grande Ocean oceanside).  We told her the average cost was about $10k for five weeks (range of $7k - $12k).  Her facial expression was one of genuine shock.  She said Marriott had been selling those weeks for about $25k in recent years.  She was very young and I think it was the first time she realized how much "profit" Marriott was making.  She was quite well prepared for all the legal questions of deeds and trusts and maintenance fees.

So that was the summary of the presentation.  We are still considering joining the plan.

Bob


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## gblotter (Jul 2, 2010)

We are here at Mountainside this week.  Received a last-minute phone call today inviting me to attend a 20-minute information session (group setting).  It was sparsely attended (perhaps 10 people).  The Marriott rep was a long-time veteran of 15+ years.

Technical/computer problems plagued her presentation.  I would have been happy to have her PC crash completely because the computer presentation was simplistic to the point of being insulting.  I was wishing for more opportunity for real discussion.  As a result, I probably got more aggressive with my questioning than I should have.

The Marriott rep admitted several things up front - including the points skimming.  Without apology she said the points skimming was the cost for more flexibility.  When I challenged her by saying that other points-based timeshare programs do not skim points, she claimed that Marriott would be more financially stable than others as a result of the points skimming.  She acknowledged that many answers were not readily available because of the newness of the program, and that the Marriott reps were learning as they go.  I give her full credit for honesty at least, but was disappointed by the lack of details and the complete omission of key facts.

She deflected other questions from me because she promised to limit the presentation to 20 minutes.

There was no opportunity to ask about the proxy voting limitations or Marriott's ability to change point requirements at will.  I was not able to ask about inventory pools or increased competition for desirable weeks.

The Marriott rep was clearly annoyed by my questions, and she made a fast exit at the end of the presentation.  A few owners lingered to speak with me after she left.  I offered them instructions on how to access documents at marriottvacationclub.com and invited them to visit tugbbs for more information.


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## Tony&Perry (Jul 5, 2010)

*Phuket presentation*

Was in Phuket 4 weeks ago (wonderful stay) and went to sales presentation.  They told us about the new USA points program and tried to sell us points in it. But it was too complicated to understand since I had not heard about it before.

They explained the ASIAN points system.  Besides Phuket you could use these points to trade into SOME USA Marriotts like Hawaii and Vegas.  They also included a number of ASIAN hotels which if I remember correctly were NOT all Marriotts.  Some were very prestigious and seemed to need quite a small number of points.

This may be a pointer for how the USA points system develops to include other hotels etc at attractive rates.


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