# Total newb, need advice on Lagunamar...



## DaveL (May 23, 2011)

Hello all,

I'm a totally newb when it comes to timeshares, and I am greatful to have found this site.

I've spent the past day combing through this site, and still want some advice.

The situtation is I'm thinking of purchasing a timeshare at Westin Lagunamar.  Deal is $28.9k, gold plus, for 1 year, 2 bedroom lockout from the developer.

I've signed the deal, and have been trying to justify this to myself, but after reading some posts on WLR, I'm considering rescinding.

My question really comes down to, is this worth it/does this make sense to do?

I've never been to Cancun, but the flexibility to use points was appealing for the relatively low intro costs.  We do not plan to go to Cancun every year, but like the ability to use the SOs for other locations.  

Additional questions are
- How hard is it to rent out part of this?
- How is resale value?

Any other quick tips/pointers for this newb?

Thanks in advance for any advice/thoughts!!!


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## cdn_traveler (May 23, 2011)

*Rescind!*

You should rescind while you still can.  Do some more research and if owning at WLR is still what you want, it will still be there for you to buy.  However, once pass the rescission period, you can kiss your 28k down the drain.  Some of the more experienced members will be along to help you with your other questions but they will definitely agree that you should rescind.

Good Luck.


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## MommaBear (May 23, 2011)

A one bedroom did NOT sell for $499 and a studio did sell for about $375 on ebay this week. I really like the Lagunamar property but do not buy retail! I did buy retail at the WEstin Princeville and sure wish I had found TUG before I had!


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## klatkiew (May 23, 2011)

DaveL - are you at lagunamar right now?   My family is here this week if you would like to have an in person chat about this.


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## DeniseM (May 23, 2011)

RESCIND - here's how - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74493

The rental market in Mexico is flooded with cheap rentals, so the rental market is terrbile - you won't be able to even cover your maintenance fees, IF you can find a renter.

The resale market is 0-10% of retail....  That means the week you just bought is worth 0-10% of what you paid for it - right now!

There is no doubt - you should rescind, and then come back and talk to us if you are still interested in timesharing.  Then you can do your homework and make a decision with no pressure, and take your time.


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## jarta (May 23, 2011)

DaveL,   ...   I own 3 weeks at Lagunamar.  All are Platinum plus 2-br lockoff weeks.  All were bought from the developer.  I own 7 Starwood weeks in Platinum plus season.  The 3 Lagunamar weeks were the only ones purchased directly from Starwood.  All my Starwood timeshares are at least 2-br weeks.  I am quite happy with my Starwood purchases, BUT .............

*If you have ANY questions now about buying at Lagunamar, please rescind now - in time, in writing and via certified mail.*

Later, there will be lots of other opportunities to purchase a timeshare.  Lagunamar will not be sold out by then.  A whole new phase (buildings 11-14 or almost 40% of the resort) stands almost completely built-out, but unsold and not on the market due to economic conditions.  

Read TUG if you are still interested in buying.  Learn all about trading under the Starwood internal system and the II (mainly) external system.  Learn about Starwood's Elite benefits.  Learn about the other branded systems (like Marriott, Disney, Hilton and Wyndham) and their benefits, drawbacks and locations.  One of the other systems may be better for your particular needs.

The best time to purchase a timeshare is after you have followed TUG for a few months and have a solid knowledge about how timesharing works.  You must buy *after* figuring out how you will use your timeshare and learning what system works best for you.

And, keep in mind that there must be reasons beyond mere economics that will support a developer purchase (any developer) because timeshares are very, very cheap on the secondary market.  There is a huge oversupply and weeks can be picked up these days for pennies on the dollar.  GLTY!   ...   eom


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## Kildahl (May 23, 2011)

Welcome, Dave. You discovered this community in the nick of time! Several hours spent here  hours after I had signed a purchase agreement saved me thousands with my first timeshare purchase.
If you think timeshare ownership makes sense to you and or your family (the vast majority of us have come to that conclusion), then join TUG and immerse yourself in the resources and discussion available here.
As Jarta noted above, there may be a time when you decide to buy directly from the developer but it is unlikely that you know enough about timesharing at this point to make that decision.
Of course, if time is not a commodity that you have but money is, then feel free to proceed under sales agreement. I have never been to Lagunamar, but understand that it is a beautiful resort.


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## DaveL (May 23, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses.

I will take your collective responses and rescind today and do more researching and asking questions.  

I must say, I'm normally very skeptical when it comes to sales presentations, but the right of rescission made it very appealing to go ahead and sign up and figure things out later.  :rofl: 

Couple of questions for now:

1 - What does it actualy mean to be a "Voluntary" resort?  

From the FAQ, 
" If a resort is Staroption "Voluntary," it means that the Staroption value of the week DOES NOT transfer to the new owner when it is resold, and the new owner DOES NOT have the right to exchange his timeshare in the Starwood Vacation Network."  Does this mean that the new owner would not be able to use the II program?

2 - In what situtation does it make sense to actually to purchas a starwood timeshare from the developer?

Thank you again for all the help!


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## DaveL (May 23, 2011)

klatkiew said:


> DaveL - are you at lagunamar right now?   My family is here this week if you would like to have an in person chat about this.



I'm actually in Maui right now.  We sat through a presentation for the WKORV and they brought up WLR as an option.


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## DeniseM (May 23, 2011)

DaveL said:


> Thank you all for your responses.
> 
> I will take your collective responses and rescind today and do more researching and asking questions.
> 
> ...



II = Interval International = an exchange company and a completely separate entity from Starwood - ALL Starwood owners can trade in II.

Voluntary means that a resale owner will not have Staroptions, and cannot trade their week in the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN.)



> 2 - In what situtation does it make sense to actually to purchas a starwood timeshare from the developer?



In my opinion there is no reason to buy from the developer, unless you are requalifying resale weeks to go all the way to 5 Star Elite.


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## Ken555 (May 23, 2011)

Congrats on rescinding. You'll be glad you did!


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## JudyS (May 23, 2011)

Yes, you will be glad you rescinded. You can always buy the same thing later (and probably much, much cheaper) if you decide you really want it.


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## jarta (May 24, 2011)

"What does it actualy mean to be a "Voluntary" resort?"

It means that if you try to resell a week at a "voluntary" resort which you purchased from Starwood, you will take a bath financially.

Weeks at "mandatory" resorts, because they transfer StarOptions for easy, internal Starwood trading 8 months from arrival (always depending on availability), sell at much higher general resale prices on the secondary market than weeks at "voluntary" resorts.  But, mandatory weeks do not sell for anywhere near developer pricing.  (No timeshare does.)

For a resale week at a "voluntary" resort you are limited to use of the week in the season you purchased or to II trading.  Or, you can "volunteer" to purchase something else from the developer at Starwood prices and requalify your "voluntary" week back into the SVN at the same time as the new developer purchase.  

However, when you sell the requalified "voluntary" week, you cannot pass on the membership in the SVN, the StarOption rights are not transferred and the week will sell for as little as "voluntary" weeks at that resort will then sell for.  

The Starwood system is set up to benefit (at a very large cost) those who buy and hold Starwood weeks - it is not user friendly to those who buy and sell or buy resale on the secondary market.  However, the flexibility of using the II external trading system takes quite a bit of sting out of buying resale voluntary weeks.  But, you have to learn how to use II and then look for good trades.

So, before you buy, resale or developer, figure out what the relative advantages and disadvantages are and how you intend to use any week you buy.  It is not an easy process.   ...   eom


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## DaveL (May 25, 2011)

Thank you all for the replies!

I rescinded the agreement and saved myself a bunch of money.  Time to do more research...


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## PatrickHB (May 26, 2011)

Another Newbie here ..Great discussion, I just made the same purchase mistake and am heading back to the WKV Maui sales office to rescind tomorrow. 

Dave, are you still in Maui and can we chat in person if that is?


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## DaveL (May 26, 2011)

PatrickHB said:


> Another Newbie here ..Great discussion, I just made the same purchase mistake and am heading back to the WKV Maui sales office to rescind tomorrow.
> 
> Dave, are you still in Maui and can we chat in person if that is?




Patrick, I am no longer in Maui, but you have a PM!


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## VacationForever (May 27, 2011)

I went to the owners' update today.  I was offered $22,900 (sales person indicated price was same for existing Starwood owner or non-owner.)  Looks like they dropped 6K from the Op's post and today.  The price is quite attractive and and I told the sales person that I would want to buy a resale first so that it can get retro'ed before buying from developer.  Something I would consider when I retire in a few years' time.


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## okwiater (May 30, 2011)

sptung said:


> I went to the owners' update today.  I was offered $22,900 (sales person indicated price was same for existing Starwood owner or non-owner.)  Looks like they dropped 6K from the Op's post and today.  The price is quite attractive and and I told the sales person that I would want to buy a resale first so that it can get retro'ed before buying from developer.  Something I would consider when I retire in a few years' time.


sptung -- what was the price of $22,900 for? Was it Cancun (Plat or Gold)? I was offered $24,900 in Cancun for EOY (owners pricing) but I believe it was for ocean front Plat.

For an EY WLR, I was offered $44,900 + 180,000 Starpoints and 4 certificates to buy 80,000 Starpoints for $1,550 per. They also offered to retro my WKV EY Plat as part of the transaction. I know most here don't think it makes sense, but I see the value in potentially achieving 4-star elite primarily because of the 10% SP bonus and the waitlist feature. The waitlist seems like it would make it much easier to go to St. John if one wanted to do so.


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## VacationForever (May 30, 2011)

Cancun.  Gold: 22900, Platinum 33500 - 2 BR LO EY (Annual).  He did give me the associated "freebie" Starpoints on purchase but since I was not going to pursue it this round, I did not retain those numbers.  

If I were to buy from developer, I would want to retro a unit.  I am more than 50% certain at this point that I would want to buy a resale in the next 6 months or so before attending another owner's update ;-).


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## okwiater (May 31, 2011)

sptung said:


> Cancun.  Gold: 22900, Platinum 33500 - 2 BR LO EY (Annual).  He did give me the associated "freebie" Starpoints on purchase but since I was not going to pursue it this round, I did not retain those numbers.
> 
> If I were to buy from developer, I would want to retro a unit.  I am more than 50% certain at this point that I would want to buy a resale in the next 6 months or so before attending another owner's update ;-).


Are you sure those numbers are correct? They are far more favorable than the developer pricing posted in the September 2008 thread: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh119/DeniseMM/WLORPricing_September2008.jpg


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## VacationForever (May 31, 2011)

The numbers are correct.  The sales guy, Gabriel, said the numbers are on "special offer" and that they are trying to clear phase 1 inventory before selling phase 2.

I was offered the explorer package to come back and the price will remain the same as quoted while I was there.  I declined.

I doubt very much they use 2 different sets of prices, other than for EOY, he quote 2 different prices for current owners and new owners.  I did tell him upfront I am on TUG.


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## jayp (Jul 27, 2011)

I wanted to bump this thread as my wife and I are essentially in the same boat as the OP.  We bought over the weekend at WLR and absolutely love the resort/Westin brand and saw this as a great oppurtunity to visit WLR on a semi regular basis as well as check out some of the other properties within SVO.  

We used an explorer package that we had purchased the last time we stayed at the WLR and as part of that deal we were able to apply the price to the timeshare that we just bought.  We ended up paying $12900 for a 2 bedroom lockoff during gold season on an everyother year basis, which worked out to 81,000 SVO(???) pts.  

After making the purchase I intially had no regrets until coming across this website earlier today.  I have taken the time to read through a number of posts and the most consistent message that keeps emerging is that we should not have bought directly from the developer.  

Based on my very limited understanding of starwood timeshare ownership if I did buy the same property in the resale market I would lose the ability to trade to another starwood property through their internal channels but I could have the option to trade through II which I have zero experience doing.  We also lose the capability to convert the SVO options into SPG pts which we also use quite frequently.  

My main questions/concerns have to do with the difference between trading options via starwood directly vs using II.  Is it worth the premium price to maintain that capability along with having the secondary option to convert to SPG pts.  

I have also looked online for examples of WLR timeshares selling at 60-70% off of retail price and I couldn't find any, can anyone please point me in the direction of some of these properties as I would really like to see them with my own eyes.  

Honestly after spending pretty much all day on TUG I still do not regret having purchased directly from the Westin but I also don't want to flush a bunch of money down the drain if that is unecessary.  Any help or guidance would be greatly appreaciated.  As of right now I have until this Friday to rescind.


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## Karen G (Jul 27, 2011)

jayp said:


> Honestly after spending pretty much all day on TUG I still do not regret having purchased directly from the Westin but I also don't want to flush a bunch of money down the drain if that is unecessary.  Any help or guidance would be greatly appreaciated.  As of right now I have until this Friday to rescind.


If you don't want to flush a bunch of money down the drain, rescind now while you still can. Do some more research. The deal will still be there any time you want to buy from the developer, no matter what the salesman wants you to believe. But, if you miss this one chance to rescind, you never get another. Rescind, take your time to understand exactly how the system works and then make an informed decision once you are ready to buy.


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## Ken555 (Jul 27, 2011)

It sounds as though you understand the variables involved. The one you don't control is time, and that's running out quickly. Rescind immediately, save your money, and buy later. 

The sales staff uses the staroption to StarPoints conversion as a sales benefit, but it's almost always a bad use of your timeshare. Just convert the maintenance fee (per use, which in your case is two years) and figure out how much those points are costing you. Remember that they sell direct for about 3.5 cents (and sometimes have them for less). And, then add in your initial expense for the ownership. 

Check completed auctions on eBay for an idea of what they're selling for these days. Of course that's just one indicator on market price. But, this board is consistent with the opinion that lagunamar is not worth much for a variety of reasons, including that it's a voluntary resort (those staroptions will not pass to a buyer should you sell it), cancun is overbuilt and readily available, etc. 

For comparison, you can buy an every year 2-bed Kierland unit with 148,100 staroptions for not much more than you spent on Lagunamar. And, since Kierland includes options upon resale, it appears to be holding some value. This is enough for a 2-bed at any Starwood resort. Your maintenance might be more each year as compared to an eoy unit, though. This is just one example of what you can buy if you want the flexibility of options with a deed that should retain some value over the years. Note that all resale purchases (unless you requalify, but don't get confused by that just yet) do not include the ability to convert to starpoints. Besides, if you want StarPoints, just get an American Express for it (that's how lots of us get our StarPoints and it works out well).

Good luck!


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## Ken555 (Jul 27, 2011)

Just checked eBay completed auctions. A 2-bed platinum annual unit sold a few days ago for $7,800.


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## jayp (Jul 27, 2011)

Karen, 

Thanks for the response and I really appreciate the feedback.  This answer has been pretty consistent across the board when these types of threads have popped up, which unfortunately does speak volumes.  So far I have only seen or read a response from one member, in this thread (Jarta), that has actually purchased directly from the developer and seems to be pleased with his/her transaction(s).  

If you or anyone else has the time to answer some of the questions I had in my original post I would really appreciate it.  Specifically whether or not it actually pays to be able to take advantage of the internal exchange options within starwood itself and whether that exchange has any distinct advantages that would justify paying the higher retail price.

Although price is a factor, it is not what we plan on solely making our final decision on.   I do not have a problem paying for a service that would turn out to be useful and make the overall experience more enjoyable.  However if the consensus is that it absolutely makes no difference whether we exchange directly through starwood or II then we will rescind and buy resale.  I would just be interested in hearing anyones personal experiences.  

Also just for the record we did buy at WLR because we do love the resort and would plan on using that place as sort of a "home" location while traveling to other SVO properties such as harborside or hawaii for some change of scenery.  Although appreciation of the properties value would be a plus we did not purchase this timeshare with the intent of reselling later on down the road with the hopes of making a profit.  That being said we also did not expect the property to be worth 30-40% of what we paid for it 3 days after the transaction either. (sorry for being so long winded)


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## jayp (Jul 27, 2011)

Ken555 said:


> It sounds as though you understand the variables involved. The one you don't control is time, and that's running out quickly. Rescind immediately, save your money, and buy later.
> 
> The sales staff uses the staroption to StarPoints conversion as a sales benefit, but it's almost always a bad use of your timeshare. Just convert the maintenance fee (per use, which in your case is two years) and figure out how much those points are costing you. Remember that they sell direct for about 3.5 cents (and sometimes have them for less). And, then add in your initial expense for the ownership.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much Ken


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## susan6103 (Nov 19, 2011)

*Attended owners update WLR*

We just attended an owners update this morning.  not a newbie to star wood.  We own WKORVN and SDO already.  
we were offers a GOLD 2bdrm every year for 22'900 and 100k bonus pts.  AND retro our resale  kaanapali into SVO.  We really would like the flexibility of using star points for air travel etc.
Would appreciate some feedback here?


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## DeniseM (Nov 19, 2011)

susan6103 said:


> We just attended an owners update this morning.  not a newbie to star wood.  We own WKORVN and SDO already.
> we were offers a GOLD 2bdrm every year for 22'900 and 100k bonus pts.  AND retro our resale  kaanapali into SVO.  We really would like the flexibility of using star points for air travel etc.
> Would appreciate some feedback here?



Most people feel that the maintenance fees at WKORV are to high too convert it to Starpoints.  You can buy the Starpoints from Starwood for less than the cost of your maintenance fees.

Also, since the MF are the same on a Gold week, but you get fewer Starpoints and Staroptions, it's not the best deal.

You can buy WLR on the resale market for pennies on the dollar.

Personally, I would not take this deal.


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## jarta (Nov 19, 2011)

DeniseM is right.  The retro part is advantageous, but you are already paying high MF at WKORV compared to the benefit converting that week brings.  You do not describe your SDO week.  If it is a Platinum, retro it instead of WKORV.  Then, dump WKROV.  IMO, the MF are too high to keep any WKORV week in a 5 Star Elite mix of resorts or ever convert the expensive WKORV StarOptions to expensive Starpoints.

And, as described, the deal is not otherwise as financially efficient a deal as you *could* get.  You are missing StarOptions at the new resort compared to the MF you will pay on a Gold week. 

You are also missing the 4-6 options to buy 80,000 Starpoints for $1,550 (each option) in addition to the 100K which you were offered for the new purchase.  Those low cost Starpoints take some of the sting out of the purchase price.  And, they add to the Starpoints needed to make the conversion to lots of air miles.   

Instead of a Gold week, look for an EOY week in Platinum season that will itself support another retro when upgraded to a EY (like an OS at Lagunamar).

If you are looking to eventually get to 5 Star Elite (and that's the only real reason to buy any week directly from Starwood), you can and should do better.   ...   eom


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## susan6103 (Nov 19, 2011)

*Thanks*

Wow, thanks Denise aand Jarta!!!
some great advice.  we ended up passing on the 'deal'.  eventually it may make sesnse for us to pursue elite status but perhaps just not yet.


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## KACTravels (Nov 20, 2011)

jarta said:


> DeniseM is right.     ...   eom



 this was nice to see.


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## susan6103 (Nov 21, 2011)

*nice to see.*



KACTravels said:


> this was nice to see.



Agree kelly.  i knew that I needed to heed the advice seriously when both Denise and Jarta are in agreement ...lol


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## jarta (Nov 21, 2011)

susan,   ...   "i knew that I needed to heed the advice seriously when both Denise and Jarta are in agreement"

The response to your post is not the first time Denise and I have agreed.  Denise and I split company when the benefits of being a Starwood Elite owner come into play.

Denise has posted consistently that she doesn't believe the benefits of any Elite membership level are worth the increased developer acquisition costs.  Therefore, Denise would never recommend anyone ever buy directly from Starwood.  She would always recommend a purchase of the most effective II trader with the lowest MF.  I agree with that strategy for most TUG posters.  Very good trades can be had on II as long as you are diligent and not too picky about where and when you vacation (sometimes even better trades are possible using II, the Starwood preference and the TUG Sightings forum than using StarOptions; II allows trades on a 2-br for 1-br basis).

However, I think well thought out developer purchasing and Starwood Elite membership is OK for some timeshare owners - depending on how you travel and use the StarOptions and Starpoints to recoup some of the developer acquisition costs each year - and I insist that other Elite benefits are actually useful, but to a much lesser extent.  For me, I like the cumulative effect of the Elite benefits.

So, from time to time DeniseM and I will agree (and continue to disagree) about Starwood.  Most of our agreement will come on the value of II trading as the alternative to developer purchasing being best for most Starwood timeshare owners.  Most of the disagreement will come as a reply to her dissing of Starwood (although Denise is entitled to express her opinion and I am just as entitled to express to mine).

But, when we agree on something, you must do it!  lol!   ...   eom


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## siesta (Nov 21, 2011)

jarta

Denise doesnt always recommend an II trader. Very often she recmmends a mandatory resort due to peoples travel styles, such as being tied to school schedule or travelling during the primest weeks or holiday breaks, or to difficult to trade into resorts like WSJ, or HRA during prime time (even though this year we got a HRA and Westin Hawaii Platinum banking)


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## jarta (Nov 21, 2011)

siesta,   ...   Your statement:  "Very often she recommends a mandatory resort ..."

My statement:  "Therefore, Denise would never recommend anyone ever buy directly from Starwood. She would always recommend a purchase of the most effective II trader with the lowest MF."

I stand by my statement.  No direct purchases from Starwood.  In the context of buying direct Denise would always recommend a cheap II trader.  For mandatory resale v. voluntary resale, to Denise, it's a matter of pecking order.

DeniseM will approve of, rather than recommend, a mandatory purchase rather than a voluntary one.  The recommendation when buying resale is always to minimize cost, buy voluntary and trade in II.  To Denise it's always about cost.  And, something relevant to this thread, Denise posts out that a mandatory resale carries StarOptions, but no ability to convert or Elite level credit.  (In general, I agree with Denise about minimizing outlay for most people.)  

The most prevalent example is Denise's stated pecking order is the preference of SDO over WKV.  SDO is highly recommended for its trading power.  WKV is only OK if the poster has already made up his/her mind to buy at a mandatory resort.  The price differential is always noted by Denise along with the lower SDO MF.

Denise neither owns at nor recommends that anyone buy anywhere (like WSJ or Harborside or WKORV) where there are high MF.  Again, I agree with that for most TUG posters.  

In fact, earlier in this thread I recommended that a WKORV week be dumped because the MF are too high to keep such a week in an Elite level SVN portfolio of weeks.  And, one of the reasons I picked up and retroed a cheap WMH resale is to dump my high MF Harborside 3-br and still stay 5 Star Elite.  Harborside is great but it involves an air fare to get there.  

I feel I have not overbought timeshares.  I'm just rejiggering.  But, IMO, overbuying and getting stuck with MFs you cannot afford is the worst mistake that can be made in timeshare ownership.

Denise, however, can speak for herself - if she cares to - and set out her priorities.    ...   eom


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## J&JFamily (Nov 21, 2011)

I think most of us would rather hear Denise's opinion from her, not you.


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## jarta (Nov 21, 2011)

J&J,   ...   Never fear!  Denise's frequently posted opinions about the value of II trading, purchasing from any developer, purchasing Starwood voluntary over Starwood mandatory and the value of Starwood Elite status will be repeated soon enough.

PS   Maybe, if you didn't post sarcastic replies, you would not get any response at all.  Think about it.   ...   eom


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## Ken555 (Nov 21, 2011)

I believe Denise still owns at WKORV. But, I agree with Jarta's recent posts, though perhaps not in the style in which it was written.

I like the best of both options, trading my WKV Platinum via SVN and my others via II.


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## DeniseM (Nov 22, 2011)

1.  I own a 2 Bdm. ocean view unit at WKORV - it's the first timeshare we bought.

2.  I don't see much value in 3 or 4 Star Elite Status - unless you can go all the way to 5 Star Elite, the perks are not worth the large amount of money you have to spend on developer purchases.

3.  Reaching 5 Star Elite is not feasible for most people - money-wise, time-wise, or management-wise.

4.  I see no reason to buy from the developer, unless it's part of a plan to reach 5 Star Elite.

5.  For someone whose goal is to always visit WSJ or Harborside - I usually  recommend buying there - the exact week or season they want - resale.

6.  For someone with some flexibility, who wants to exchange into other Starwood resorts, I usually recommend SDO (II trader) - resale.

YMMV


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