# [2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]



## bobdaz

Has anyone ever received and email from Wyndham like this and what does it mean

Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at  if you have any questions.


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## ronparise

bobdaz said:


> Has anyone ever received and email from Wyndham like this and what does it mean
> 
> Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at  if you have any questions.



It means  your account is suspended because of unusual activity on your account

Did they have a telephone number in there.. Id call


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## jediinprescott

*Account*

I received the same email. Called the number and message said it would get back to me within 48 hours. Unable to do anything with my account. 
Mike


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## debrinkleyusa

*Account Suspended*

My account has been suspended too.  It was first suspended over a week ago but I was then given partial access by letting me call in to make cancellations and buy guest certificates.  Now I have been fully suspended again but I don't know why.  I have sent emails and left phone messages so I am just waiting for the call back.  I hope no family vacations get ruined over this.  Why all the hate from Wyndham for owners paying big maintenance fees and sending them new guests to make their presentations to?  
Best wishes to all being impacted and hoping for amicable solution.

DB


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## bobbyoc23

Does this seem to be happening to "mega renters" as Wyndham might call them? I wonder if this is happening to people with less than 2,000,000 or whatever points they use to define "mega renters"


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## ronparise

bobbyoc23 said:


> Does this seem to be happening to "mega renters" as Wyndham might call them? I wonder if this is happening to people with less than 2,000,000 or whatever points they use to define "mega renters"



It seems to be "activity" based. I know one owner that has under 2milliom and got the email and another over 10 million that didn't. I suspect they used several filters and cast a wide net.


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## bobdaz

I called the number and still no response, what is usually the out come of the review


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## VivianLynne

Wyndham could be stomping on their 'outside' rental competition. I was wondering WHY they had not done this a long time ago...except they most likely were gauging the push back (unity) of the "megarenters" or just weakening the players .... less revenue over a 12-18 months, raising MFs, adding on new or increasing fees, playing with cancelling all overlap reservations with point forfeiture ...... little things do add up. Small players turning in contracts ... under Ovations... stripping future contracts (buys) from the megarenter pool.

Less need to build new resorts ... free points are really cheap inventory to sell for $160-200 retail per 1,000 points. And the corporation bank balance GOES way up when inventory are dirt cheap (i.e. FREE).


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## Jan M.

I think it was about two years ago that I heard that Wyndham was changing owners use year. Because of this they may have ended up with more points than they actually owned and maybe now Wyndham is going back and auditing them. I remember after I heard about them changing the use year that I called in and made it very clear that I absolutely didn't want my use year changed to January 1 and was told that it would be much easier for Wyndham if everyone was on the same use year.  Or it could be something else entirely.


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## ronparise

Ive talked to several others that got the email, and now I know where and when ground zero is. I know the first guy that was hit and in fact can pinpoint the phone call that set it off

What happened is that he called in to correct a mistake. He had cancelled some points and they didnt go back to the credit pool like they should have. The agent that he spoke with was having a problem fixing this and called in a supervisor who noticed that for every 2 million points he owned he had over 8 million points in reservations..  That looked fishy to the supervisor, and the next day that account was suspended. 

 Flash forward to yesterday and and lots of owners got the email. One guy I talked to has already been contacted by wyndham and reported in another thread here on tug that they were asking him questions, like "how did you get 8 million points in reservations and you only own 2 million

So it seems to me that after that first guy fell into their lap they designed a query to find others. Possibilities would be a high number of guest confirms, or a high number of reservations relative to points owned, or perhaps a high number of cancellations 

I firmly believe that if you can explain how you use your account and how that would generate a relatively  high number of reservations you will be back in business quickly. as long as what you do is within the rules.  at least I hope so

Are they using this as an opportunity to flesh out mega renters and make life difficult for them?... Yes I think so  
was thet the original purpose ?   I doubt it

and I have a response to The death of the middle class rant above too, but dinners ready..gotta go


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## ronparise

Oh and answer the questions, no more and no less. Volunteer nothing

Ill modify this advice to say.. if you are guilty of some crime, or know you have broken the rules to game the system, then by all means volunteer nothing. But if you have nothing to hide, there is nothing to be lost and probably lots to gain (like a quicker resolution)  by being open and honest


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Oh and answer the questions, no more and no less. Volunteer nothing


There are sure to be many VIP owners who will point to page 346 of the Club Wyndham Directory to defend cancel-rebook as a VIP benefit.

There will be others who will say, "The only reason I bought up to Platinum VIP is because the salesman showed me how to get all my reservations for half the credit cost of a studio."

There might even be a few who will maintain that NOT leveraging 2 million points into 8 million points using the various cancel-rebook scams would be like owning a Ferrari and never driving it out of Manhattan.

Who knows if Wyndham will buy any of it?

It is difficult to believe that Wyndham did know all this was going on.  There have been posts about it in the past, but this time it sounds serious.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> There are sure to be many VIP owners who will point to page 346 of the Club Wyndham Directory to defend cancel-rebook as a VIP benefit.
> 
> There will be others who will say, "The only reason I bought up to Platinum VIP is because the salesman showed me how to get all my reservations for half the credit cost of a studio."
> 
> There might even be a few who will maintain that NOT leveraging 2 million points into 8 million points using the various cancel-rebook scams would be like owning a Ferrari and never driving it out of Manhattan.
> 
> Who knows if Wyndham will buy any of it?
> 
> It is difficult to believe that Wyndham did know all this was going on.  There have been posts about it in the past, but this time it sounds serious.



the cancel and rebook trick has nothing to do with this.   

What wyndham saw was an account that looks to have far more points in reservations (and available to make reservations with)  than points owned> 

Cancel and rebook doesnt create new points,  If I start with a million points and make reservations that take a million points, then cancel and rebook at half price I will have 500000 points in reservations and 500000 points available to use.   and I will still own 1,000,000 points.  Thats not what wyndham saw. or better said, that saw that, but its not what triggered this witch hunt

They saw accounts like one of mine where I own contracts worth 651000 points and where I have over 21 current reservations with 2.1 million points in them and 350000 points available to use>>(as Ive said in another post a 4:1 ratio is easy to explain with the credit pool)   In that same account  there are 144  past reservations (this year) where I have used 144 guest confirmations 

In this account the ratios  are apparently not far enough away from whats expected, to have triggered the suspension.*they must not have looked at guest confirms)  But there are other accounts  caught up in this Witch Hunt,  where  the ratios  have at least tickled the curiosity of someone at Wyndham  and they want a closer look

accounts like one presidential reserve platinum account (not mine) with 2 million points owned, and 60 million points in current reservations.plus all the past 2016 reservations.  That may be an extreme example but thats the kind of thing that caused Wyndham to go into panic mode. How the hell is that possible?  You know the answer to this question, Co Skier>  at least you posted about it in other threads here in the past... and it has nothing to do with cancel and rebook. 

as a result of seeing whats possible (60 million points in a 2 million point account) Wyndham has already closed the program that made that possible. This Witch Hunt is designed, I think, to find other loopholes that had similar outcomes.


I agree with you cancelling and rebooking is a gross abuse of the system and has to be closed, but thats not the subject or purpose of this particular witch hunt.. They are looking for bigger problems, that in my opinion dont exist


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## Braindead

CO skier said:


> There are sure to be many VIP owners who will point to page 346 of the Club Wyndham Directory to defend cancel-rebook as a VIP benefit.
> 
> There will be others who will say, "The only reason I bought up to Platinum VIP is because the salesman showed me how to get all my reservations for half the credit cost of a studio."
> 
> There might even be a few who will maintain that NOT leveraging 2 million points into 8 million points using the various cancel-rebook scams would be like owning a Ferrari and never driving it out of Manhattan.
> 
> Who knows if Wyndham will buy any of it?
> 
> It is difficult to believe that Wyndham did know all this was going on.  There have been posts about it in the past, but this time it sounds serious.



I have to back Ron & other renters on this they are NOT scammers. I have never read a post where they advocate or do anything outside of the program guidelines Wyndham set up. They simply understand the system and use it to full advantage . Then they turn around and share that knowledge with the rest of us . They should be applauded for this .Wyndham might make some changes after they get get their eyes opened wide on what the current system allows. You may like the changes Wyndham makes in the future. But call Ron and other scammers is totally off base


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## Roger830

Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled points to return to the credit pool.

Now when a Christmas week is canceled and rebooked at a 50% discount in November, the points return to the credit pool not canceled points that had to be used by the end of the year. 

Now in February, for every 1 million Christmas week points that were canceled and rebooked using the credit pool, there will be 1.5 million points for new reservations. The following year 1.75 million points will be available.  Adding the use of future years pooled points compounds the problem.


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## ronparise

VivianLynne said:


> Wyndham could be stomping on their 'outside' rental competition. I was wondering WHY they had not done this a long time ago...except they most likely were gauging the push back (unity) of the "megarenters" or just weakening the players .... less revenue over a 12-18 months, raising MFs, adding on new or increasing fees, playing with cancelling all overlap reservations with point forfeiture ...... little things do add up. Small players turning in contracts ... under Ovations... stripping future contracts (buys) from the megarenter pool.
> 
> Less need to build new resorts ... free points are really cheap inventory to sell for $160-200 retail per 1,000 points. And the corporation bank balance GOES way up when inventory are dirt cheap (i.e. FREE).



I think you are right, wyndham wants us gone, but I think we are more of an irritation to them than an outright problem  Kinda like a mosquito in my bedroom at night. Im gonna swat at it and maybe kill it, but chances are once its in, its probably gonna bite me.  The thing is the bite is just a red spot for a couple of days and then it goes away.. What I do is put screens on the windows and make sure there is no standing water around my home to keep most of them out and keep the population down>> Wyndham has done that with mega renting. They keep the population down by making VIP ownerships expensive, and now with Ovation they are keeping the number of points available to us to a minimum. and they swat at us with regular rule changes like the 10 night rule> but they havent yet taken action like  whats happening  in Miami  to combat Zika.  But they could >> Ive said before that they can put me out of business by just offering me 2 cents a point for what I own, they havent done that yet but if you can believe Steve Holmes the ceo, they want to take back more inventory than Ovation is giving them  Heres what he said in the first quarter 2106 earnings call

"we have not gotten that kind of response that we were thinking we might see on Ovation not as many people have taken us up on the offering, but we're going to continue to refine it and improve it and we think it will be nice way to get people to recycle out and leave gracefully."

so maybe they might just offer to buy us out,  It would be a "two for one" for Wyndham, 1) provide low cost inventory to the sales force, and 2) put the mega renters out of business.


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## Braindead

Everyone needs to remember when Wyndham makes changes it affects us all. Good changes for all or bad changes for all. I personally hate CWA it waters down ARP you can have owners of over 70 resorts trying to get in 1 during ARP. One of the changes I have posted about when Wyndham changed the amount of free guest certificates. I have over 2 million points and only get 1. I have never rented a point but still could use more for family and friends. The old saying be careful for what you wish for. You may not like it when it comes true.


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## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> "we have not gotten that kind of response that we were thinking we might see on Ovation not as many people have taken us up on the offering, but we're going to continue to refine it and improve it and we think it will be nice way to get people to recycle out and leave gracefully."
> 
> so maybe they might just offer to buy us out,  It would be a "two for one" for Wyndham, 1) provide low cost inventory to the sales force, and 2) put the mega renters out of business.



And the third leg of that stool is, to the extent they can dry up resale inventory, the only way to own Wyndham would be to buy direct. That to me provides the most promise for Wyndham to enhance their bottom line. Imagine if sales never had to defend direct purchase pricing versus ebay pricing. Since any resale points available have already produced huge sales revenue for Wyndham, they should have no problem buying back at Ron's price point or even higher to make sure inventory comes home and can only be (re)sold by them.


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## CO skier

Braindead said:


> But call Ron and other scammers is totally off base


You misread my post.  I did not call Ron or anyone else a scammer; I called cancel-rebook a scam.  Some people refer to cancel-rebook as a trick or loophole.  It is all synonymous.

There are many methods to turn 2 million points into 8 million points of reservations.  As I understand the process, a 2 million point Platinum owner can reserve a Bonnett Creek 1 bedroom for 180,000 points plus a few 3 and/or 4 bedroom Presidentials for 385,000 or 424,000 points, respectively.  Within 60 days cancel the 1 bedroom and rebook it for 90,000 points, then cancel one of the Presidentials and upgrade to it, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, cancel another Presidential and upgrade, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, again, and keep repeating until the all the Presidentials are reserved at half the points cost for a 1 bedroom.

Do it right and with a bit of luck, that is how 2 million points becomes 8 million points of reservations.  At $6/thousand, 2M points costs $12,000 maintenance fees and 8 million points is worth $48,000.  Is this fair use of the system, or is this a scam?  Pay $12,000 and walk out the door with $48,000 worth of 13-month reservations?  Should Wyndham do something about this or not?

If someone can reserve a 4 bedroom Presidential at 13 months for full points and use it with their family or rent it, that is one thing.  If, instead, they cancel-rebook it for 50% off, or manipulate the reservation system to reserve it at half the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom, that negatively impacts other owners, so it should not be allowed.  That is just my thought, but that and all the money in my pocket will not get me a Starbucks coffee.

Wyndham’s opinion of the various cancel-rebook schemes is the only opinion that matters. They will investigate and decide to hand the Ferrari keys back to the owners or not.  When something similar happened ten years ago, owner-to-owner points transfers were eliminated.  Could this latest development mean the end of VIP points discounts?  It is not out of the question.  How else could they solve the problem, if they think it is a problem worth solving?

Megarenting happens, and it will continue to happen.  I think Wyndham is obligated to respond when Owners reserve more than their Fairshare of reservations.


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## rickandcindy23

Hey, let's not give Wyndham any ideas.  That is what this thread could possibly do.  Wyndham is trying to scare people.  

I have the original video CD of the benefits we were to have as platinum members.  I kept it just in case.  :rofl:


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## comicbookman

I doubt that they would cancel the VIP discount.  It would wreck one of their biggest upsell programs.  I do expect that they will at some point restrict the discount to only developer purchased points, which is how they describe it to buyers already.  To do this , however, would require them to have reservation system that actually works.


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## tschwa2

I don't own wyndham points but my feeling is if they don't want it working that way, they could stop it.  Hilton doesn't allow owners to book a reservation and then wait until open season to cancel a reservation and then book for last minute discounted cash rates. The system prevents any nights that had been booked in that account from booking  for any discounted re-booking.  You can call and rebook those nights at full point cost if they are still available when you call if you need to adjust the days if other days are available or if you want to shorten the trip without discounting any nights you just cancelled.  

All Wyndham has to make it formal rule that you can't cancel and book for a discount and/or cancel and upgrade from the same account.  This won't stop points managers or those with multiple VIP accounts from using multiple accounts to cancel and rebook but it will stop some of it.  Without the formal rule that it isn't allowed and still allowing all those who haven't been targeted to continue the practice Wyndham really shouldn't be allowed to target certain owners/members.


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## Sandy VDH

The cancel and rebook doesn't provide more points in an account, however it does provide a greater value received for a reservation, because you got a larger unit as an upgrade from a discounted smaller unit. 

As Ron pointed out that does NOT put more points into an account.  It does allow one to receive more value with less points, NOT actually generate MORE points. 

So if there are situations where someone has more than 4X the number of points used for actual reservations in a single year, that is an issue.  Where do those points come from?  At most you can have a current year, PLUS 3 years of Credit Pooled points which you did NOT use in any of the previous 3 years.  That does not seem to be the situation as Ron described.

I don't consider myself a Mega Renter, but do rent frequently.  I have just over 1M on paper, with 2 PIC weeks that I actually never deposit.  So I have just under 1M points per year and get 30 GC on my VIP Platinum account. 

Whatever I am doing I did not trigger a freeze in my account, but I'm not doing anything that is outside of the operating parameters of the Wyndham System. 

Something is a bit rotten in the state of Denmark, to quote Hamlet.  Now you have me wondering.......


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> You misread my post.  I did not call Ron or anyone else a scammer; I called cancel-rebook a scam.  Some people refer to cancel-rebook as a trick or loophole.  It is all synonymous.
> 
> There are many methods to turn 2 million points into 8 million points of reservations.  As I understand the process, a 2 million point Platinum owner can reserve a Bonnett Creek 1 bedroom for 180,000 points plus a few 3 and/or 4 bedroom Presidentials for 385,000 or 424,000 points, respectively.  Within 60 days cancel the 1 bedroom and rebook it for 90,000 points, then cancel one of the Presidentials and upgrade to it, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, cancel another Presidential and upgrade, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, again, and keep repeating until the all the Presidentials are reserved at half the points cost for a 1 bedroom.
> 
> Do it right and with a bit of luck, that is how 2 million points becomes 8 million points of reservations.  At $6/thousand, 2M points costs $12,000 maintenance fees and 8 million points is worth $48,000.  Is this fair use of the system, or is this a scam?  Pay $12,000 and walk out the door with $48,000 worth of 13-month reservations?  Should Wyndham do something about this or not?
> 
> If someone can reserve a 4 bedroom Presidential at 13 months for full points and use it with their family or rent it, that is one thing.  If, instead, they cancel-rebook it for 50% off, or manipulate the reservation system to reserve it at half the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom, that negatively impacts other owners, so it should not be allowed.  That is just my thought, but that and all the money in my pocket will not get me a Starbucks coffee.
> 
> Wyndham’s opinion of the various cancel-rebook schemes is the only opinion that matters. They will investigate and decide to hand the Ferrari keys back to the owners or not.  When something similar happened ten years ago, owner-to-owner points transfers were eliminated.  Could this latest development mean the end of VIP points discounts?  It is not out of the question.  How else could they solve the problem, if they think it is a problem worth solving?
> 
> Megarenting happens, and it will continue to happen.  I think Wyndham is obligated to respond when Owners reserve more than their Fairshare of reservations.



What you describe does indeed happen  but it doesn't manufacture points. (It manufactures reservations but not points) If you look at an account that has been used in this way you will see lots of reservations and the points that were used to make them. If it was a 300000 point reservation and a 100000 point reservation that were used to produce one 50000 point reservation what the auditor will see is 50000 points used and 350000 points available to use. The total   of points used and points available will still equal the points owned

No doubt this is a gross abuse of the system but it's not what we are talking about here. What they are looking for today are accounts where they don't add up


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## scootr5

Sandy VDH said:


> So if there are situations where someone has more than 4X the number of points used for actual reservations in a single year, that is an issue.  Where do those points come from?  At most you can have a current year, PLUS 3 years of Credit Pooled points which you did NOT use in any of the previous 3 years.  That does not seem to be the situation as Ron described.



I believe Ron alluded to it a bit - You own a 2 million point contract, you buy 2,000,000 points, credit pool all future year points in the contract you just bought, and sell the contract with no points remaining in it for 3 years. You now own 2,000,000 points, but you have 8,000,000 points available to reserve.

It would definitely look odd at first glance when looking at account totals.


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## Sandy VDH

scootr5 said:


> I believe Ron alluded to it a bit - You own a 2 million point contract, you buy 2,000,000 points, credit pool all future year points in the contract you just bought, and sell the contract with no points remaining in it for 3 years. You now own 2,000,000 points, but you have 8,000,000 points available to reserve.
> 
> It would definitely look odd at first glance when looking at account totals.



Yes I get that, I was saying if you had MORE than 4X.  

You would also need to lack any reservations in the previous 3 years to accomplish that.  I am doubting that situation is applicable either.


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## scootr5

Sandy VDH said:


> Yes I get that, I was saying if you had MORE than 4X.
> 
> You would also need to lack any reservations in the previous 3 years to accomplish that.  I am doubting that situation is applicable either.



I'm thinking if you buy _enough _of those large contracts and strip/sell them, you could have way more than 4x.


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## tschwa2

So you are saying that someone with a 2 million point account was somehow credited with 8 million points for the year and the owner just went ahead and booked 8 million points of reservations?

If the owner had nothing to do with being credited with the extra points then they need to give the owner the option to cancel 6 million in reservations or pay 4X's their normal MF for the year and in the mean time they need to find out why/how it happened and prevent it from happening again.

____
If they stripped and sold them and the taker (be it wyndham or another) agreed to take the stripped account and is paying the MF without the points then again no harm no foul.


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## Sandy VDH

scootr5 said:


> I'm thinking if you buy _enough _of those large contracts and strip/sell them, you could have way more than 4x.



That would be the only reasonable explanation I could think of.


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## SueDonJ

It sounds to me like renters should be scouring the governing docs to see if there's anything in there related to a prohibition on "commercial renting."  Disney and Marriott are two companies that have such a prohibition; I'm sure they're not alone.

As far as we know Marriott doesn't enforce it but it's pretty much acknowledged that they could (and no doubt, some owners wish they would.)  Several years ago Disney, on the other hand, got the word out that on an ongoing basis they would be reviewing accounts with a certain number of Guest names attached to owner reservations, while at the same time they limited the number of transfers allowed in/out of owner accounts to one per year.  That resulted in changes to the process that spurred some owner-renters to sell their ownerships.

I'm not saying that I think personally that renting is bad and should be stopped, just saying that what's happening here gives the appearance that this company is looking very closely at it.  Be like the Boy Scouts, prepared for whatever may come.  And Good Luck!


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## Braindead

Wyndham has decide to allow renting to continue or put a stop to it including Wyndham itself!!! Personally I prefer no renting period. I would argue it allows a lower class of people into the resorts. Renting causes higher maintenance fees because of extra wear and tear- higher utility bills- more staffing. More units would simply be unused because owners don't use their points or weeks saving money. I'm ready to get beat up on this post!


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## SueDonJ

Braindead said:


> Wyndham has decide to allow renting to continue or put a stop to it including Wyndham itself!!! Personally I prefer no renting period. I would argue it allows a lower class of people into the resorts. Renting causes higher maintenance fees because of extra wear and tear- higher utility bills- more staffing. More units would simply be unused because owners don't use their points or weeks saving money. I'm ready to get beat up on this post!



In the two systems I mentioned the docs don't say that renting is all-or-none in the way you suggest.  If either of them chooses to completely prohibit rentals by owners, their right to rent would not be impacted at all.


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## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> It sounds to me like renters should be scouring the governing docs to see if there's anything in there related to a prohibition on "commercial renting."  Disney and Marriott are two companies that have such a prohibition; I'm sure they're not alone.
> 
> As far as we know Marriott doesn't enforce it but it's pretty much acknowledged that they could (and no doubt, some owners wish they would.)  Several years ago Disney, on the other hand, got the word out that on an ongoing basis they would be reviewing accounts with a certain number of Guest names attached to owner reservations, while at the same time they limited the number of transfers allowed in/out of owner accounts to one per year.  That resulted in changes to the process that spurred some owner-renters to sell their ownerships.
> 
> I'm not saying that I think personally that renting is bad and should be stopped, just saying that what's happening here gives the appearance that this company is looking very closely at it.  Be like the Boy Scouts, prepared for whatever may come.  And Good Luck!



No need to look.  It's there, I can give you the reference if you want it


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Wyndham has decide to allow renting to continue or put a stop to it including Wyndham itself!!! Personally I prefer no renting period. I would argue it allows a lower class of people into the resorts. Renting causes higher maintenance fees because of extra wear and tear- higher utility bills- more staffing. More units would simply be unused because owners don't use their points or weeks saving money. I'm ready to get beat up on this post!



The problem with the " class" argument is that it's too late to do that.  I already own


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## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> It sounds to me like renters should be scouring the governing docs to see if there's anything in there related to a prohibition on "commercial renting."  Disney and Marriott are two companies that have such a prohibition; I'm sure they're not alone.
> 
> As far as we know Marriott doesn't enforce it but it's pretty much acknowledged that they could (and no doubt, some owners wish they would.)  Several years ago Disney, on the other hand, got the word out that on an ongoing basis they would be reviewing accounts with a certain number of Guest names attached to owner reservations, while at the same time they limited the number of transfers allowed in/out of owner accounts to one per year.  That resulted in changes to the process that spurred some owner-renters to sell their ownerships.
> 
> I'm not saying that I think personally that renting is bad and should be stopped, just saying that what's happening here gives the appearance that this company is looking very closely at it.  Be like the Boy Scouts, prepared for whatever may come.  And Good Luck!



_[Deleted.]_

I've had one on one discussions with a number of Wyndham executives and they haven't been shy about the fact they don't like renting

I've told them the same thing I posted here. "Buy me out"


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> The problem with the " class" argument is that it's too late to do that.  I already own



There's always that exception! You stay hidden. I have never looked around and said I bet that's Ron !!!


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## Sandy VDH

I Don’t Want to Belong to Any Club That Will Accept Me as a Member

Groucho Marx


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## SueDonJ

ronparise said:


> No need to look.  It's there, I can give you the reference if you want it



No thanks, I'm not an owner, just thought maybe owners could be helped by my thoughts.  It's my opinion, take it or leave it.



ronparise said:


> _[Deleted.]_
> 
> I've had one on one discussions with a number of Wyndham executives and they haven't been shy about the fact they don't like renting
> 
> I've told them the same thing I posted here. "Buy me out"



Again, for owners who might want to focus on the issue, what the owners or Wyndham might "like" is irrelevant.  What you or they can DO is important.


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## rickandcindy23

The salespeople sell Wyndham based on the ability to rent points you cannot use.  Until these sales' tactics end, I don't see how Wyndham can enforce a rule against renting.


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## vacationhopeful

rickandcindy23 said:


> The salespeople sell Wyndham based on the ability to rent points you cannot use.  Until these sales' tactics end, I don't see how Wyndham can enforce a rule against renting.



If not part of the WRITTEN contract that renting is permitted and unlimited, it can be terminated.


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## bnoble

ronparise said:


> I've told them the same thing I posted here. "Buy me out"


I think I know why they haven't. Here's a story as to why:

I'm a CS Professor at Michigan. Our building is set up so that all faculty have master keys to (almost) every office, but the grad students have keys only to their own offices. However, in a building set up this way, if you have several examples of individual room keys, the search space for the master key is quite limited---maybe only a handful of possibilities to check, assuming key-holders collude.

Well, of course our Ph.D. students colluded on this question.  And, they have access to 3-D printers, so they printed the handful of possible candidates, and lo and behold, one of them worked.

This was all fine and good until one of those morons dropped a copy of the master key in the parking lot, and a faculty member found it. He freaked out and went to the senior administrator in the department. She freaked out and was about to order a re-key of the whole building, at a cost of $40K.

I got wind of this, and walked down to her office. "If you re-key the building, you have to give all the grad students keys to their new offices.  They're just going to do this again. Let's save ourselves the $40K and just talk to them instead."

I suspect this is why Wyndham is not buying Ron out. He'll just do it again, and pocket the proceeds from selling off the first account along the way. For Wyndham to get out of this, they have to fundamentally change the rules. One way is to adopt the DVC rule that if you sell a contract, you lose any reservations made with that contract. Extend that to "until you've paid the MFs for the points used for those reservations" and then they've made their master key "copy-proof."


----------



## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> The salespeople sell Wyndham based on the ability to rent points you cannot use.  Until these sales' tactics end, I don't see how Wyndham can enforce a rule against renting.



That seems backwards?  As long as it's allowed it makes sense for the salespeople to play up the ability to rent.  If/when the rules are changed and it's no longer allowed, that's when it would be incorrect for the salespeople to use the ability as a selling point.


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## DeniseM

OK - but are we assuming that Sales People are going to tell the truth?  When did that start?


----------



## raygo123

CO skier said:


> You misread my post.  I did not call Ron or anyone else a scammer; I called cancel-rebook a scam.  Some people refer to cancel-rebook as a trick or loophole.  It is all synonymous.
> 
> There are many methods to turn 2 million points into 8 million points of reservations.  As I understand the process, a 2 million point Platinum owner can reserve a Bonnett Creek 1 bedroom for 180,000 points plus a few 3 and/or 4 bedroom Presidentials for 385,000 or 424,000 points, respectively.  Within 60 days cancel the 1 bedroom and rebook it for 90,000 points, then cancel one of the Presidentials and upgrade to it, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, cancel another Presidential and upgrade, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, again, and keep repeating until the all the Presidentials are reserved at half the points cost for a 1 bedroom.
> 
> Do it right and with a bit of luck, that is how 2 million points becomes 8 million points of reservations.  At $6/thousand, 2M points costs $12,000 maintenance fees and 8 million points is worth $48,000.  Is this fair use of the system, or is this a scam?  Pay $12,000 and walk out the door with $48,000 worth of 13-month reservations?  Should Wyndham do something about this or not?
> 
> If someone can reserve a 4 bedroom Presidential at 13 months for full points and use it with their family or rent it, that is one thing.  If, instead, they cancel-rebook it for 50% off, or manipulate the reservation system to reserve it at half the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom, that negatively impacts other owners, so it should not be allowed.  That is just my thought, but that and all the money in my pocket will not get me a Starbucks coffee.
> 
> Wyndham’s opinion of the various cancel-rebook schemes is the only opinion that matters. They will investigate and decide to hand the Ferrari keys back to the owners or not.  When something similar happened ten years ago, owner-to-owner points transfers were eliminated.  Could this latest development mean the end of VIP points discounts?  It is not out of the question.  How else could they solve the problem, if they think it is a problem worth solving?
> 
> Megarenting happens, and it will continue to happen.  I think Wyndham is obligated to respond when Owners reserve more than their Fairshare of reservations.


Keep the cancel and rebook just make it like RCI, you cannot use credit pool points as you cannot deposit credit pool points in RCI

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## CO skier

Sandy VDH said:


> That would be the only reasonable explanation I could think of.


Here is a crude example to illustrate how cancel-rebook pours points into an account.  Forget the credit pool. For this discussion, it is a red herring.

Start with 2 million points, book 1 bedroom for 180k + four 3 BR Pres for 1.54M + 280k leftover points = 2 million
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 4 Presidentials @90k = 360k + 1.64M points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + three 3 BR Pres for 1.155M + 305k leftover points = 1.64M points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 7 Presidentials @90k = 630k + 1.37M points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + three 3 BR Pres for 1.155M + 35k leftover points = 1.37M points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 10 Presidentials @90k = 900k + 1.1M points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + two 3 BR Pres for 770k + 150k leftover points = 1.1M points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 12 Presidentials @90k = 1.08M + 920k points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + one 3 BR Pres for 385k + 355k leftover points = 920k points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 13 Presidentials @90k = 1.17M + 830k points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + one 3 BR Pres for 385k + 265k leftover points = 830k points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 14 Presidentials @90k = 1.26M + 740k points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + one 3 BR Pres for 385k + 175k leftover points = 740k points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 15 Presidentials @90k = 1.35M + 650k points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k + one 3 BR Pres for 385k + 85k leftover points = 650k points
Run cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade

You now have 16 Presidentials @90k = 1.44M + 560k points to run again
Book 1 bedroom for 180k and there are 380k left – 5k short of reserving another Presidential

So 2 million points reserved 16 Presidential units for 1.44M points + 1 BR for 180k + 380k points left.

16 Presidentials has a value of 6.16M of reservations (in an account that should have only 2 million) + 180k 1BR + 380k leftover points = 6.72 million points.



This elaborate cancel-rebook scheme generated an extra 4.72 million points for this account.  A more refined process using more efficient units could easily generate 6 million or more. 

It seems some such accounts have been frozen, whether Wyndham was looking for them or not.  There are other accounts where Wyndham might have swept up the account, but the credit pooling or other explanation might be the reason.  It will be a mess to sort out.  Look how complicated this account would be, and it is only at one resort, not scatted across unit sizes in multiple resorts.


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## johnstonga

*Audit/Frzn Account of only 1.1M points*

*OK --- I too have had my account frozen.

I only own 1.126M points all in one account ..... but I began pooling points a few years ago, and pool everything since the elimination of 'cancelled' points.
Plus I rent 1.126 points from Wyndham every year @ $8/per K.

So that means I can have as many as 5.0 million points available at the beginning of any given year ---- and usually use about 2.25 million --- which I then replace at the beginning of next year.

I'm hardly a mega renter --- rarely use all 30 of my allowed free guest certs.
But I do take advantage of all the VIP discounts/upgrades I can find.

I'd actually called owner services to 're-rack' some of my "cancelled points" that should have gone back into a "Pool" but ended up as regular points.   
I ended up with  twice as many 'regular' points for a 3/31 use year than I own with a 3/31 use year end date.   Prima Facie case that something is wrong.

The next day I got the account audit --- although based on the voicemail I got I don't think one triggered the other.

From other posts, sounds like they've taken a "Freeze now" figure it out later approach --- hope they've got enough dedicated staff to work thru all of these cases quickly...... I fear that is not the case ..... "winter is coming" and it could be a Deep Freeze.

GAJ

*


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## Sandy VDH

shoot first ask questions later


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## CO skier

More like a round-up, then sort them out one at a time.


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## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> No thanks, I'm not an owner, just thought maybe owners could be helped by my thoughts.  It's my opinion, take it or leave it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, for owners who might want to focus on the issue, what the owners or Wyndham might "like" is irrelevant.  What you or they can DO is important.



My point is that those of us that rent are already well aware of what the policy on commercial renting is.  I do appreciate your eagerness to help though


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> I think I know why they haven't. Here's a story as to why:
> 
> I'm a CS Professor at Michigan. Our building is set up so that all faculty have master keys to (almost) every office, but the grad students have keys only to their own offices. However, in a building set up this way, if you have several examples of individual room keys, the search space for the master key is quite limited---maybe only a handful of possibilities to check, assuming key-holders collude.
> 
> Well, of course our Ph.D. students colluded on this question.  And, they have access to 3-D printers, so they printed the handful of possible candidates, and lo and behold, one of them worked.
> 
> This was all fine and good until one of those morons dropped a copy of the master key in the parking lot, and a faculty member found it. He freaked out and went to the senior administrator in the department. She freaked out and was about to order a re-key of the whole building, at a cost of $40K.
> 
> I got wind of this, and walked down to her office. "If you re-key the building, you have to give all the grad students keys to their new offices.  They're just going to do this again. Let's save ourselves the $40K and just talk to them instead."
> 
> I suspect this is why Wyndham is not buying Ron out. He'll just do it again, and pocket the proceeds from selling off the first account along the way. For Wyndham to get out of this, they have to fundamentally change the rules. One way is to adopt the DVC rule that if you sell a contract, you lose any reservations made with that contract. Extend that to "until you've paid the MFs for the points used for those reservations" and then they've made their master key "copy-proof."



Exactly right until you consider my age. I only have a few good years left to keep doing this

Seriously though. Read big robs post. A third effect of an aggressive buy back program is that Wyndham will control the secondary market. I won't be able to do it again

For 6 years now I've been buying at an average price of $2/1000 points These contracts are worth about $18 to me (because they have 3 years of points in them worth about $6/1000) so push the market to $18/1000 and there is nothing there for me 

The Hunt brothers once nearly cornered the whole worldwide silver market. I think Wyndham could probably corner the market for their points if they wanted to

I will say that just as you describe your grad students as morons for doing what they did. it takes a moron to do what I do


----------



## jebloomquist

CO skier said:


> Here is a crude example to illustrate how cancel-rebook pours points into an account.  Forget the credit pool. For this discussion, it is a red herring.



Even though Ron tried to explain to you how 2 million annual points per year can end up with reservation that use 8 million points, you didn't seem to get it, and went back to your cancel/rebook rant. 

ANY ACCOUNT CAN DO THIS REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL IT IS.

Take an account with only 100,000 points, obviously not a VIP account. In year 1 the owner credit pools all 100,000 points. In year 2 the owner credit pools years 3 and 4. Therefore, in year 2 the owner has 100,000 points available from year 1 in the credit pool, 100,000 regular points available from year 2, 100,000 points available in the credit pool from year 3, and 100,000 points available in the credit pool from year 4. So, at this point the owner has 400,000 available points, and can make reservations totaling up to 400,000 with an account that only has an annual allotment of 100,000 points.

There is no need to do any cancel/rebook to do this.

Does this help?

Jim


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## bnoble

> I will say that just as you describe your grad students as morons for doing what they did. it takes a moron to do what I do


You misunderstand. They were morons for leaving a plastic, 3-D printed master key laying on the ground...the original scheme was quite admirable. That's why they all eventually earned Doctorates. The key to earning a Ph.D. is doing something your research advisor thinks isn't possible. That's what all of my best students have done.


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## ronparise

bnoble said:


> You misunderstand. They were morons for leaving a plastic, 3-D printed master key laying on the ground...the original scheme was quite admirable. That's why they all eventually earned Doctorates. The key to earning a Ph.D. is doing something your research advisor thinks isn't possible. That's what all of my best students have done.



 I bought my first 385000 wyndham points 6 years ago, and my wife thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever done. She advised that I had better find a way to rent this $hi! .. So I did

I posted what I was trying to do here and on the now defunct Wyndham owners forum. And the advice I got in both places was  It cant be done. Its too hard, theres too much competition, Only VIPs can make any money.  Too much risk, too little reward.. .. I went ahead anyway and did what my advisers said couldnt be done>>> You can call Doctor Ron now:rofl:

on second thought, maybe we should wait until wyndham finishes reviewing my account


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> If you can believe Steve Holmes the ceo, they want to take back more inventory than Ovation is giving them  Heres what he said in the first quarter 2106 earnings call
> 
> "we have not gotten that kind of response that we were thinking we might see on Ovation not as many people have taken us up on the offering, but we're going to continue to refine it and improve it and we think it will be nice way to get people to recycle out and leave gracefully."



Still amazing how many owners aren't aware of Ovation. A lot of small point contracts and weeks on eBay that cost owners to sell. I suppose Wyndham doesn't want to pay to send information via mail to all owners. I bet a lot of owners have never set up their account online.


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## travelwyndham

*Is it legal to suspend these accounts*

Hello, I was wondering about the suspended accounts and I just don’t see how it can be “LEGAL” to not allow owners to access their accounts when they have already paid for them and are current on all their dues/fees? I had an audit done on my account a few years ago and was told about it in advance and I had access to my account during the entire audit. Which means that they CAN do the audit and let owners have access to their accounts. I think that might be using the audit as an excuse to suspend accounts, but they are failing to mention that they can do the audit without suspending the account. Isn’t what they are actually doing, considered to be THEFT: The felonious taking and removing of property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.


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## CO skier

jebloomquist said:


> Even though Ron tried to explain to you how 2 million annual points per year can end up with reservation that use 8 million points, you didn't seem to get it, and went back to your cancel/rebook rant.
> 
> ANY ACCOUNT CAN DO THIS REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL IT IS.


Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.

Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?

I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling.  After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment?  Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.

So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason.  Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.

I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites.  If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan.  My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.


----------



## jebloomquist

CO skier said:


> My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.



Could Wyndham freeze accounts, not unfreeze them, and still require that monthly maintenance fees be paid? 

Talk about a potential lawsuit. "Wyndham, you have frozen my account. You can't show me when, where, or how I didn't follow your rules. And now, you insist that I must still pay my monthly maintenance fees, or you will take further action. If you aren't going to unfreeze my account, what further actions can you take?"

If accounts aren't unfrozen soon, "taxation without representation." What happened then?

Jim


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## CO skier

jebloomquist said:


> Could Wyndham freeze accounts, not unfreeze them, and still require that monthly maintenance fees be paid?
> 
> Talk about a potential lawsuit. "Wyndham, you have frozen my account. You can't show me when, where, or how I didn't follow your rules. And now, you insist that I must still pay my monthly maintenance fees, or you will take further action. If you aren't going to unfreeze my account, what further actions can you take?"
> 
> If accounts aren't unfrozen soon, "taxation without representation." What happened then?
> 
> Jim


Complain to the management, but remember that the management has to represent all owners.


----------



## travelwyndham

However, the promise of discounts and free upgrades is why a lot of owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy silver, gold, platinum and presidential ownerships in the first place. If a person buys a first class ticket and then gets to their expensive seat to find out that the leg room is exactly the same and they have to pay for their meals… everything same as standard, then how is that fair? What if; every time they fly, they use “mileage points” to fly first class, and because they are frequent flyers they also get front of the line… Is it unfair for them to take advantage of these deals? Didn’t they “EARN” that right to do so? If I buy a front seat at a concert and spend a lot of money to do so, and another individual decides to save their money and buy the back row, but then they find that they can’t see anything… How is that unfair? Why be mad at the person who dug deep into their pockets and paid the big bucks for something with perks? It would be absurd if the person who paid for the front row, decided to sit in the back row just because they sat in the front row every time and now they felt guilty.


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## OutSkiing

CO skier said:


> Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.
> 
> Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?
> 
> I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling.  After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment?  Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.
> 
> So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason.  Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.
> 
> I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites.  If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan.  My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.



Its the other way around. Cancel / rebook has always been available and even encouraged by Wyndham sales sharks.

The ability to put canceled points into the credit pool is new. Until that recent change, canceled points HAD TO be used during that same year as the original reservation. Now canceled points can go back to the pool for use again and again. When canceling resulted in the guaranteed loss of those points by the end of the year it was illogical to bring future year points forward into this year. But now they can be recycled over and over making your cancel/rebook/repeat scenario even more practical.

I do agree with travelwyndham's point that freezing someone's property for any extended period cannot be legal.  Its kind of like barring the door to a high-rise condo building preventing the owners from getting into their own homes. All because you think one of them has cheated. I think they will learn that nobody cheated but Wyndham policies allowed this.

Bob


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.
> 
> Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?
> 
> I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling.  After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment?  Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.
> 
> So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason.  Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.
> 
> I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites.  If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan.  My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.



You are quite right cancelling re booking and upgrading can create more reservations than might be expected  but I don't believe it's the number of reservations that triggered these audits. It's the number of points 

In your example you started with 2 million points and turned them into  reservations worth 8 million points 

Now do this.
 Cancel all those reservations. They go back to 2 million points  

Compare that to the way my account looked. I own contracts with 2.5 million points. And I have reservations which if I cancel them will generate more than 10 million points

Focus on the number of points actually in the reservations and the number of points owned.  In your example there is balance:  2 million points owned and 2 million in reservations.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Now do this.
> Cancel all those reservations. They go back to 2 million points
> 
> Compare that to the way my account looked. I own contracts with 2.5 million points. And I have reservations which if I cancel them will generate more than 10 million points



... and those 10 million points would go back to the credit pool where they came from just as my 2 million points would go back to the current year.

I am not worried about how the auditors look at the accounts.  If I did much of any cancel-rebook, I would be worried about the auditors looking at the account at all.

If, in the end, it all passes muster or not, then c' est la vie.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason.



As Ron has explained, this has nothing to do with it. It is a red herring. They are adding up the points used in reservations - the net points, not the "gross value of the reservations" that you are obsessed with - to determine the accounts that appear to have imbalances. And there can be very rational explanations for why that is the case. 

1) It is possible to have up to 5 years worth of points in an account, as points credit pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 could all be in an account. This is absent any adjustments made due to issues with reservations, etc.

2) Adjustments may be made from time to time due to issues that have to be addressed - for example reservations that were not honored, or were interrupted in some way, etc.

3) Transfers in and out of an account may result in additional points remaining in the account. For example I moved 10-12 contracts from one of my accounts to the other. The one they were moved from kept the points that were tied up in reservations. So guess what? One account appears to have too many points - and the other one doesn't have enough. Wyndham has not been trying to help me reclaim the missing points in the other account though.


----------



## jumoe

*I also have had my account frozen*

I am almost identical to johnstonga, except almost double. I own 2.166M. I have pooled all years currently possible.  I rent 1M from Wyndham every year @ $8 per K.  

I do use all 30 of my guest certs.  I do take advantage of all VIP discounts/upgrades.  

I called owner services to 're-rack' some of my "cancelled points" that should have gone back into a "pool" but ended up as regular points.    I currently show 1.068M points with a Sept 30 2016 exp date when my only contract with 9/31 use year is 154K.  (Hm,  this should not be possible, right?)

2 days later my account was frozen.  I sent them an email as directed.  I have not talked with them yet.  

Has no one received a call back yet?  Or, are those that have talked with wyndham just not posting??


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## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> As Ron has explained, this has nothing to do with it. It is a red herring. They are adding up the points used in reservations - the net points, not the "gross value of the reservations" that you are obsessed with - to determine the accounts that appear to have imbalances. And there can be very rational explanations for why that is the case.
> 
> 1) It is possible to have up to 5 years worth of points in an account, as points credit pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 could all be in an account. This is absent any adjustments made due to issues with reservations, etc.
> 
> 2) Adjustments may be made from time to time due to issues that have to be addressed - for example reservations that were not honored, or were interrupted in some way, etc.
> 
> 3) Transfers in and out of an account may result in additional points remaining in the account. For example I moved 10-12 contracts from one of my accounts to the other. The one they were moved from kept the points that were tied up in reservations. So guess what? One account appears to have too many points - and the other one doesn't have enough. Wyndham has not been trying to help me reclaim the missing points in the other account though.


Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?

But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?



I worry about the length of time it will take Wyndham to perform the audit, and I'm sure everyone else has the same concern.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?
> 
> But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?



Ah, you edited your reply as I was responding.

I can't speak for others, but it was never suggested to me that I may want or need a lawyer. I can certainly understand why Wyndham would need to have counsel involved if they are taking a unilateral action that adversely impacts the largest owners, that would only be prudent.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?
> 
> But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?



That's another question altogether if it make you feel better I am very much worried 

Much like an irs audit. I was audited years ago I knew my return was correct. I had all my records, I had declared  all my income and I had receipts for all my expenses but I knew that paying no taxes on several hundred thousand in gross income looked fishy. Hell yes I was worried.   As it turned out my return was accepted as filed 

With this Wyndham thing. I know I didn't do anything wrong and more than that, I know what I did  and I know it explains the imbalance seen in my accounts. And yet I'm still worried.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> I can't speak for others, but it was never suggested to me that I may want or need a lawyer. I can certainly understand why Wyndham would need to have counsel involved if they are taking a unilateral action that adversely impacts the largest owners, that would only be prudent.



Below is the post from another thread with the lawyer reference that got my attention from the beginning, and led me to believe that something more than the credit pool was up, but maybe it is all much ado about nothing:



> A wyndham lawyer called with an owner care person and ask me if i wanted my own lawyer present with the inference i did something wrong
> 
> Only thing i could gleam was they were looking at a report that added up bookings. So if you have alot of turnover, you could make the list


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> And yet I'm still worried.


This thread has proved so informative.  I am sure that those affected are now wondering well ... is it just the credit pool ... or should I be worried?


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## Slinger

When my cable, Internet, cell phone or satellite goes out for a day or few, I refuse to pay for days service that I wasn't able to use. 

Why are owners not doing that with Wyndham? Say I pay $100/mo in MFs. You remove a week access to my account. Now I send you $75 this month. (Rough math for example's sake)


Thoughts? Am I just off my rocker crazy?


----------



## vacationhopeful

And Wyndham corporate has been sending checks covering the VIP discount and upgrade costs to each resort's HOA for HOW MANY YEARS?

The CPAs and auditors will make a fortune in OT and consulting fees .... 

And then there is the NYSE ....

And the word of the day, should it be "PONZI"?

added: IMHO and non-legal & personal opinion, the timeshare owners did NOT alter, modify, hi-jack or damaged Wyndham computers or their property.


----------



## OutSkiing

vacationhopeful said:


> And Wyndham corporate has been sending checks covering the VIP discount and upgrade costs to each resort's HOA for HOW MANY YEARS?



Is that how discounts and upgrades are balanced out?  I've been wondering if Wyndham foists some of the burden off on the HOAs using an excuse of 'vacancy'. After all an upgrade occurs because the next nicer unit is still available in the 60/45 day window.

There was a line item in the financial statements reviewed during Wyndham Annual meeting that could have been these payments but I didn't think it was big enough.

Bob


----------



## vacationhopeful

OutSkiing said:


> <snip>
> There was a line item in the financial statements reviewed during Wyndham Annual meeting that could have been these payments but I didn't think it was big enough.
> 
> Bob



Bob,

And who is running, programming and doing the accounting and balancing ... writing the checks? And the audits? And is the voting majority at almost ALL WYNDHAM resorts?

It is amazing ...

So go look at the NON-Wyndham controlled resorts ...

There are 5 Shawnee Resort's HOAs. Shawnee has rci resort number of 0001. Yes, the FIRST RCI affliated resort. Built in the dark ages. In a ski area in Northeastern PA. Right off (less than 2 miles) from the I-80 exit running directly into NYC. The resort is on the Delaware River and the original builder/developer/manager also opened a nearby SKI AREA. It has an indoor BIG ASS POOL, decent basketball court, nice workout gym. Almost every unit in the place is 2/2 ... almost all are duplex townshouse style ... no condo except for the WYndham built 1 building ...spread over acres of ground. *My deeded fixed weeks HOA fees are UNDER $700 per interval.* And can/do/could fetch during PRIME season 166,000 to 175,000 Wyndham points.

The Wyndham managed HOAs seem to COST so much more to run ... places where the COST OF LIVING is way less, labor is way less, better/less hostile climates costs way less.

The reservation computer system, 1-800 number, autopay, etc are all covered by OUR PAID CWP and CWA fees. Not our MFs.


----------



## bestresort

*No doubt this is a gross abuse of the system*



ronparise said:


> What you describe does indeed happen  but it doesn't manufacture points. (It manufactures reservations but not points) If you look at an account that has been used in this way you will see lots of reservations and the points that were used to make them. If it was a 300000 point reservation and a 100000 point reservation that were used to produce one 50000 point reservation what the auditor will see is 50000 points used and 350000 points available to use. The total   of points used and points available will still equal the points owned
> 
> No doubt this is a gross abuse of the system but it's not what we are talking about here. What they are looking for today are accounts where they don't add up



The gross abuse is wyndham charging an elderly person 20 k for a 63 k point contract when they can get same thing on ebay for free.

Wyndham would have ZERO sales without the gold/platitnum system.

So the real scam is WYNDHAM giving discounts to people that buy from WYNDHaM  PAY TO PLAY IF YOU WILL

To get to platinum someone has to pay 400 K and they give you discounts then make it harder to obtain said discounts.

Everything points back to Wyndham.

Yes, and if there is abuse,it requiresa systme when wyndham is involved in the front end, middle end,andendof the life cycle of acontract.

Id love to find a lawyer that would take this on contingency.

The whole WYNDHSCAM CORP would tumble

I have another suggestion, when at a resort, and you a sales presentation going on, tell the mark to run from the crooks


----------



## Roger830

bestresort said:


> The gross abuse is wyndham charging an elderly person 20 k for a 63 k point contract when they can get same thing on ebay for free.
> 
> Wyndham would have ZERO sales without the gold/platitnum system.
> 
> So the real scam is WYNDHAM giving discounts to people that buy from WYNDHaM  PAY TO PLAY IF YOU WILL
> 
> To get to platinum someone has to pay 400 K and they give you discounts then make it harder to obtain said discounts.
> 
> Everything points back to Wyndham.
> 
> Yes, and if there is abuse,it requiresa systme when wyndham is involved in the front end, middle end,andendof the life cycle of acontract.
> 
> Id love to find a lawyer that would take this on contingency.
> 
> The whole WYNDHSCAM CORP would tumble
> 
> I have another suggestion, when at a resort, and you a sales presentation going on, tell the mark to run from the crooks



We need retail buyers to keep the system active, resale sellers just don't do enough volume. Wyndham sells to folks that have no interest in buying a timeshare. That's the way the system as a whole functions. 

I would never discourage a stranger from buying retail at a resort that I'm visiting.

The cost should be lower, which is more like 105,000 points for $20,000, about $160,000 for platinum.


----------



## bestresort

*These contracts are worth about $18 to me*

These contracts are worth about $18 to me but you have  liability of 18 in future mf so the value should be 0.

If you cant extract 18 in value by screwing wyndham or someone else on a purchase, so be it

Thats a huge abuse imho
======================================

If you owned a house are you allowed to rent it by the week.

Why should the administrator put rules in place that would limit our right to use our deeded property.

Why do i have to pay wynscam 99 to allow a family friend to use it.Double that if god forbid its a split reservation


----------



## ronparise

jebloomquist said:


> Could Wyndham freeze accounts, not unfreeze them, and still require that monthly maintenance fees be paid?
> 
> Talk about a potential lawsuit. "Wyndham, you have frozen my account. You can't show me when, where, or how I didn't follow your rules. And now, you insist that I must still pay my monthly maintenance fees, or you will take further action. If you aren't going to unfreeze my account, what further actions can you take?"
> 
> If accounts aren't unfrozen soon, "taxation without representation." What happened then?
> 
> Jim



.. Dont pay and they have every right to freeze the account


----------



## ronparise

jumoe said:


> I am almost identical to johnstonga, except almost double. I own 2.166M. I have pooled all years currently possible.  I rent 1M from Wyndham every year @ $8 per K.
> 
> I do use all 30 of my guest certs.  I do take advantage of all VIP discounts/upgrades.
> 
> I called owner services to 're-rack' some of my "cancelled points" that should have gone back into a "pool" but ended up as regular points.    I currently show 1.068M points with a Sept 30 2016 exp date when my only contract with 9/31 use year is 154K.  (Hm,  this should not be possible, right?)
> 
> 2 days later my account was frozen.  I sent them an email as directed.  I have not talked with them yet.
> 
> Has no one received a call back yet?  Or, are those that have talked with wyndham just not posting??



someone did post in another thread that they had their phonecall

I got mine yesterday


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Below is the post from another thread with the lawyer reference that got my attention from the beginning, and led me to believe that something more than the credit pool was up, but maybe it is all much ado about nothing:



It is a whole lot more than the credit pool.  all I was saying in that other thread was that the credit pool might explain some of the imbalance

and now Im adding that cancel and rebook doesnt explain any of the imbalance.


----------



## bestresort

*We need retail buyers to keep the system active*



Roger830 said:


> We need retail buyers to keep the system active, resale sellers just don't do enough volume. Wyndham sells to folks that have no interest in buying a timeshare. That's the way the system as a whole functions.
> 
> I would never discourage a stranger from buying retail at a resort that I'm visiting.
> 
> The cost should be lower, which is more like 105,000 points for $20,000, about $160,000 for platinum.



We need retail buyers to keep the system
active So we & wyndham have alligned goals

 instead of the term "retail buyers"Insert the word suckers

And btw, i dont believe wyndham gives the hoa squat for vip savings, no way. So they are giving away something they dont own or even have a right to give away


----------



## raygo123

I agree with the statement concerning the elderly person who buys 63k.  But it is their responsibility to do the research.

Rack price is about $255/1000 not $400/1000.  
Pic is another way to get to platinum.  I'm gold for under $70,000.  My PIC s are Mexican TSs with no yearly MF.

If, I had planned better and had two, two bdrm PIC s I would be platinum, for that money.  


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

Slinger said:


> When my cable, Internet, cell phone or satellite goes out for a day or few, I refuse to pay for days service that I wasn't able to use.
> 
> Why are owners not doing that with Wyndham? Say I pay $100/mo in MFs. You remove a week access to my account. Now I send you $75 this month. (Rough math for example's sake)
> 
> 
> Thoughts? Am I just off my rocker crazy?





What you dont understand is that Wyndham  can squash me like a bug. The only reason that I can keep doing what i do is that they tolerate it.  So when Wyndham asks me to jump I say "yes sir, how high sir?  

I know I didnt do anything wrong and I want to make sure they agree and lift the suspension... (Id like an apology, and some compensation for the lost sleep but Im not counting on that)   but if I dont pay my dues they have no reason to keep talking to me, and I have no reason to think that they will lift the suspension

I work with Wyndham, not against them, If they want to know what Im doing, I tell them, and If my fees are due, I pay them...  If you dont understand why that makes sense, , yes I think you are crazy>>>> or I am


----------



## rickandcindy23

ronparise said:


> What you dont understand is that Wyndham  can squash me like a bug. The only reason that I can keep doing what i do is that they tolerate it.  So when Wyndham asks me to jump I say "yes sir, how high sir?
> 
> I know I didnt do anything wrong and I want to make sure they agree and lift the suspension... (Id like an apology, and some compensation for the lost sleep but Im not counting on that)   but if I dont pay my dues they have no reason to keep talking to me, and I have no reason to think that they will lift the suspension
> 
> I work with Wyndham, not against them, If they want to know what Im doing, I tell them, and If my fees are due, I pay them...  If you dont understand why that makes sense, , yes I think you are crazy>>>> or I am



I agree with everything you said!  I need Wyndham to know I will answer any question they have about my activities, and I need them to know I am pretty grateful to them for my benefits as a Platinum owner.


----------



## Cheryl20772

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have the original video CD of the benefits we were to have as platinum members.  I kept it just in case.  :rofl:


Right, and your roleypoley emoticon shows you know that VIP benefits are not protected by contract.


----------



## cayman01

*theory*

I think what is being done here by Wyndham is a fact finding mission. A bit heavy handed but a fact finding mission nonetheless. They want to know exactly how people are getting 8M points worth of ressies in a 2m point account and they are going to close those loopholes. They want to see how people are taking advantage of the system as it is. 

 They are going to do their best to limit their competition in the rental market while not infringing upon the non-megarenter majority of owners. So, I think you will see a reduction in credit pooling abilities, limited upgrading, etc.

 I think a lot of this might stem from Presidential Reserve owners wondering why they have to spend $2k plus in maintenance fees to stay in PR when they could have bought it on eBay for less than half of that.


----------



## vacationhopeful

cayman01 said:


> I think what is being done here by Wyndham is a fact finding mission. .....
> 
> I think a lot of this might stem from Presidential Reserve owners wondering why they have to spend $2k plus in maintenance fees to stay in PR when they could have bought it on eBay for less than half of that.



PR owners have special inventory and 'finishes' in their units. IMHO, few mega-renters spent the extra money to buy PR points or that "class" of ownership.

Now, PR owners might be mingling with "the unwashed masses" .... the lower class level of "mouthy, bragging renters" who love to say, they got a 2/2 rentals for 7 nights for $350. while in the pool or at the pool bar. Just 1 of those "non-owners" or "guests" .. can ruin MANY owners' vacations. 

I usually say, "wow .. what a deal. Can you give me the name & phone number for that owner, so I can rent from them. Should I give them YOUR NAME as a reference?" NEVER have gotten a phone number ... usually have gotten, "they had a death in the family" or "I did them some favors & they are helping me out" or "I lost the number .. let me get back with you."

And sometimes, they are actually locals floating in the pool (illegally) or sitting at the bar (like the Royal Vista Tiki Hut).


----------



## ronparise

cayman01 said:


> I think what is being done here by Wyndham is a fact finding mission. A bit heavy handed but a fact finding mission nonetheless. They want to know exactly how people are getting 8M points worth of ressies in a 2m point account and they are going to close those loopholes. They want to see how people are taking advantage of the system as it is.
> 
> They are going to do their best to limit their competition in the rental market while not infringing upon the non-megarenter majority of owners. So, I think you will see a reduction in credit pooling abilities, limited upgrading, etc.
> 
> I think a lot of this might stem from Presidential Reserve owners wondering why they have to spend $2k plus in maintenance fees to stay in PR when they could have bought it on eBay for less than half of that.




I think they pretty much already know, Their problem is that there hasn't been a concerted effort to coordinate all that info

The title dept  knows some of it, the owner care and the reservations clerks  know some of it. and Im sure so does finance. and of course sales.   and now Im sure Ovations and the buy back team knows some of it

But no one knows it all,  Now they probably will, although I still have a few secrets that I havent exploited 

The question of course is assuming they want to curtail large scale renting,, How do they construct a suite of new rules that can do that without too much negative impact on the rest of the membership... I dont think they can

I think bnoble has their answer and that is that they  just have to talk to us.  I know that would work for me.. Tell me what you want and leave me a little room to operate, Lets make a deal


----------



## COAIR005

*I spoke to Wyndham!*

Hey - someone called me back from Wyndham.

Long and short of it (and I think we're all in the same boat), but they were accusing me of spending more points than I subscribed to and basically said that I was several million points (negative) in the hole!

I obviously, that is not the case or at least if that did occur it was not with any malice and if that permitted to be done with by Wyndham's system.

They told me the account will remain suspended for +/- the next few weeks while they audit the points on the account.

I obviously have many good reasons to believe they are wrong and this is an error on the side of their points/accounting system, but ultimately, we'll see what happens.

Anyone else talk to them? 

PS - If you haven't or want to continue to express your frustration, call their main dispatch 407-626-5200 and ask to speak to the office of the president.


----------



## johnstonga

*Got My call back >> Expect 1-2 week suspension*

*
Wyn Rep -- with attorney listening in -- stated issue:  
My account has over 6+M points activity/reservations in 1.1M account & have 700+K available points --- Even with multiple year of pooled points, which they had ALREADY assumed, "How did that happen?" 

Not so hard if you start with almost 5M points at beginning of year.

I expressed my lack of confidence in Wyndham's ability to keep accurate track of the correct number of points in my account.  
I cited an earlier in year episode when Wynd summarily subtracted about 600K points from my account ..... then before I had time to analyze what was happening, it appeared that the 600K points had come back with no explanation.
Clearly their systems were not prepared to deal with the elimination of cancelled points ..... and I blamed the 'geniuses in the corner offices' for making policy changes without checking with the IT department.

I was assured that "smart people" were working on the audits ---- I verified a direct phone number for my agent.  Was told I'd hear back in a week or two and that the only 'transactions' I'd be able to do during suspension was to cancel reservations.

So now, I guess, we sit and wait to see what the number crunchers come up with.*


----------



## Sandy VDH

I keep a spreadsheet of all my wyndham transactions and what pool the points came out of.  

That way I can audit to ensure Wyndham is doing what they are suppose to be doing, and I keep myself straight in the process. 

Been doing that for years.


----------



## cayman01

vacationhopeful said:


> PR owners have special inventory and 'finishes' in their units. IMHO, few mega-renters spent the extra money to buy PR points or that "class" of ownership.
> 
> No, what I meant was a PR owner looking for a PR unit and they are all gone as megarenters have them tied up in rental reservations. The "special inventory" advantage is a hoax as I read it. It says 75% of AVAILABLE PR rooms are held for PR. However, once the other 25% is taken it follows that 25% of the "special inventory" becomes open season for everybody til it is gone. And so on til there are no available units. The only true advantage PR has is the 14-13 month window. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to Wyndham but have spent a lot of nights pouring over the owner's guide....
> 
> As for the "unwashed masses" I don't think that comes into play. In fact I can be considered an unwashed mass as I picked up a Christmas 5-night vacation at Bonnet Creek ina 4BR Presidential  last year for $550. It's more about looking on eBay and saying " WTF did I spend all that money for?" Seeing a 4BR Presidential for $700 (or less) for a week does not sit well with people that spent $50k for those "special" rooms.


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## Braindead

I have said it in previous threads and still think it would be better to give VIP a smaller discount on all reservations upfront and a certain amount of upgrades a year upfront. Eliminate cancel rebook. Things would be so simple and show more units available because there not being tied up for cancel rebook


----------



## chapjim

Sandy VDH said:


> I Don’t Want to Belong to Any Club That Will Accept Me as a Member
> 
> Groucho Marx



Or, as my father used to say, "Any girl that would marry one of my sons, I wouldn't want for a daughter-in-law!"


----------



## vacationhopeful

I would like an accounting of all the points and inventory Wyndham has seize via the overlapping reservation rule they imposed starting in late Dec 2015.

And WHO got those reservation bookings? Extra Holidays? After all, it was the New Year Eve week.

Is it there concern that an owner in good standing might leave a unit physically empty THAT their MFs are paying for? 

Or did they see it as a cash bump to corporate Wyndham's bottomline ... and trolling for new leads for Sales?


----------



## Ty1on

vacationhopeful said:


> I would like an accounting of all the points and inventory Wyndham has seize via the overlapping reservation rule they imposed starting in late Dec 2015.
> 
> And WHO got those reservation bookings? Extra Holidays? After all, it was the New Year Eve week.
> 
> Is it there concern that an owner in good standing might leave a unit physically empty THAT their MFs are paying for?
> 
> Or did they see it as a cash bump to corporate Wyndham's bottomline ... and trolling for new leads for Sales?



I would guess they felt like people were renting out duplicate reservations without giving Wyndham the benefit of the GC fee.  Check in to both units, have renter meet you to pick up the key, boom.


----------



## bestresort

*PR owner looking for a PR unit and they are all gone*



cayman01 said:


> vacationhopeful said:
> 
> 
> 
> PR owners have special inventory and 'finishes' in their units. IMHO, few mega-renters spent the extra money to buy PR points or that "class" of ownership.
> 
> No, what I meant was a PR owner looking for a PR unit and they are all gone as megarenters have them tied up in rental reservations. The "special inventory" advantage is a hoax as I read it. It says 75% of AVAILABLE PR rooms are held for PR. However, once the other 25% is taken it follows that 25% of the "special inventory" becomes open season for everybody til it is gone. And so on til there are no available units. The only true advantage PR has is the 14-13 month window. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to Wyndham but have spent a lot of nights pouring over the owner's guide....
> 
> As for the "unwashed masses" I don't think that comes into play. In fact I can be considered an unwashed mass as I picked up a Christmas 5-night vacation at Bonnet Creek ina 4BR Presidential  last year for $550. It's more about looking on eBay and saying " WTF did I spend all that money for?" Seeing a 4BR Presidential for $700 (or less) for a week does not sit well with people that spent $50k for those "special" rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PR owner looking for a PR unit and they are all gone as megarenters have them tied up in rental reservations
> 
> Im  megaowner and i never ever booked a reservation at PR
Click to expand...


----------



## raygo123

Braindead said:


> I have said it in previous threads and still think it would be better to give VIP a smaller discount on all reservations upfront and a certain amount of upgrades a year upfront. Eliminate cancel rebook. Things would be so simple and show more units available because there not being tied up for cancel rebook


I'm gold VIP, so any cancel and rebook has to occur in the first six months to double book then cancel and rebook to enable me to deposit savings into credit pool.
My last reservation would be Aug 14th.  So again, I do not want to see it disappear.  If I can do two that's great.  To me, it's one more one bedroom, or a stay that requires more points than the standard 105,000.

One thing Wyndham is doing is closing the loop hole that you have a choice as to what points one can use, it is now current year first.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## bestresort

99 % are suspended for the sins of a few

Stripping the contract of points, then dumping the contract is a  shameful practice.

SHAME SHAME

That greed has us all frozen


----------



## raygo123

bestresort said:


> 99 % are suspended for the sins of a few
> 
> Stripping the contract of points, then dumping the contract is a  shameful practice.
> 
> SHAME SHAME
> 
> That greed has us all frozen


You get what you pay for, that would never happen if you bought from the developer

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## jediinprescott

I also had a conversation with Wyndham and the attorney. I can see what the issue is....the point computer or whatever it's called. I own 3.7 million points. I have used about 1.5 and have reservations in the neighborhood of 2.5 million to the end of the year. With all that somehow there are currently 3.6 million showing on my account status ( the only page I can see right now). No clue how they got there. I have not credit pooled anything. I do the cancel/ rebook with pretty good success but not anywhere close to put 3.6 million in the account. I asked them to protect my personal reservations if they decide to do a sweep and they said they would notify me before they start cancelling. I don't know why they need to suspend the account while they audit...they control the computer.
Mike


----------



## John_and_Val

I might have missed this in the previous posts............but, question.....
Are all the affected accounts (the ones being frozen) aftermarket accounts? 

Are there any that have Wyndham purchased accounts and aftermarket?

And lastly, are there any frozen that are just Wyndham purchased Accounts?

Just would like to see if they are targeting aftermarket purchases only......


----------



## vacationhopeful

John_and_Val said:


> I might have missed this in the previous posts............but, question.....
> Are all the affected accounts (the ones being frozen) aftermarket accounts?
> 
> Are there any that have Wyndham purchased accounts and aftermarket?
> 
> And lastly, are there any frozen that are just Wyndham purchased Accounts?
> 
> Just would like to see if they are targeting aftermarket purchases only......



A Megarenter is most successful as a Platinum VIP owner. So, they did buy points directly from Wyndham ... and maybe a few resale points. And if they have been owners for years, might have 2 PIC deeds attached to the membership.

To be a Platinum, Gold or Silver VIP ... you have certain levels of points which MUST be Developer brought. They don't recognize resale points as a WAY to obtain (reach) any VIP or Presidential level.


----------



## jumoe

John_and_Val said:


> I might have missed this in the previous posts............but, question.....
> Are all the affected accounts (the ones being frozen) aftermarket accounts?
> 
> Are there any that have Wyndham purchased accounts and aftermarket?
> 
> And lastly, are there any frozen that are just Wyndham purchased Accounts?
> 
> Just would like to see if they are targeting aftermarket purchases only......



My account is VIP from personally purchased contracts and then aftermarket to increase


----------



## travelwyndham

I asked them to send me a copy of all my upcoming reservations and my name and all my families name that were listed as the travelers are now showing the traveler as a Laura Edwards. I have no idea who Laura Edwards is, but right now, she can go and check into any of my reservations.


----------



## travelwyndham

By the way, we own1,000,000 presidential reserve and then an additional 1,000,000 developer points plus about 4 million in affiliates and a few resales.


----------



## ronparise

travelwyndham said:


> I asked them to send me a copy of all my upcoming reservations and my name and all my families name that were listed as the travelers are now showing the traveler as a Laura Edwards. I have no idea who Laura Edwards is, but right now, she can go and check into any of my reservations.



log into your account after 11:45 pm and before 7 am  
go to your confirmations.  
Click on the confirmation number and the confirmation will open so you can see the points used and your guests name

I'll be checking tonight to see if Laura is on my reservations too

Send an email to Laura.edwards@wyn.com   I bet it doesn't bounce and we learn she is a Wyndham employee


----------



## jjmanthei05

I have heard of 3 other owner/mega renters that had their accounts frozen (one of which had 5 million+ points worth of reservations canceled). This is all been deduced from conversations I have with these people. It seems like there are 2 situations they are looking for. The first one is if you purchase a contract from and book up the points in the contract before it transfers to you, it will duplicate most if not all the reservations. SO you will see 2 reservations with the same confirmation number for the same dates and room size. When you cancel both of these reservations you get the point total for each one. So if you have a million point contract, you could turn that into close to 5 to 6 million points by pooling all points and booking reservations before the transfer. Since you shouldn't have gotten these, they will take them back. 

The 2nd situation is for people who rolled points with different use years. Before the got rid of canceled points, if you had different use years the points would always cancel to the furthest use year over the next 12 month. So Mega renters were able to roll points they didn't use in a year. When the points rolled they disconnected from the contract number so now those show nothing of where they came from which is a big flag for Wyndham that something isn't right. 

As far as i have heard Cancel and Rebook has nothing to do with it because that is something that is allowed in the user agreement. The doubling and rolling were system glitches and not suppose to be part of the system. My account hasn't been suspended (that i am aware of) but I don't have multiple use years so I don't think I have much of a concern. Also some of them had their audits take up to 6 weeks to complete. 

Jason


----------



## jjmanthei05

travelwyndham said:


> I asked them to send me a copy of all my upcoming reservations and my name and all my families name that were listed as the travelers are now showing the traveler as a Laura Edwards. I have no idea who Laura Edwards is, but right now, she can go and check into any of my reservations.



Have you called the resorts to confirm if the reservations have been updated at the front desk to her name? 

Jason


----------



## markel

jjmanthei05 said:


> I have heard of 3 other owner/mega renters that had their accounts frozen (one of which had 5 million+ points worth of reservations canceled). This is all been deduced from conversations I have with these people. It seems like there are 2 situations they are looking for. The first one is if you purchase a contract from and book up the points in the contract before it transfers to you, it will duplicate most if not all the reservations. SO you will see 2 reservations with the same confirmation number for the same dates and room size. When you cancel both of these reservations you get the point total for each one. So if you have a million point contract, you could turn that into close to 5 to 6 million points by pooling all points and booking reservations before the transfer. Since you shouldn't have gotten these, they will take them back.
> 
> The 2nd situation is for people who rolled points with different use years. Before the got rid of canceled points, if you had different use years the points would always cancel to the furthest use year over the next 12 month. So Mega renters were able to roll points they didn't use in a year. When the points rolled they disconnected from the contract number so now those show nothing of where they came from which is a big flag for Wyndham that something isn't right.
> 
> As far as i have heard Cancel and Rebook has nothing to do with it because that is something that is allowed in the user agreement. The doubling and rolling were system glitches and not suppose to be part of the system. My account hasn't been suspended (that i am aware of) but I don't have multiple use years so I don't think I have much of a concern. Also some of them had their audits take up to 6 weeks to complete.
> 
> Jason



Situation #1 - Wouldn't this be considered theft? If one figured out this "loophole" and knowingly used this tactic to get more points then they actually owned or were entitled to.


----------



## ronparise

jjmanthei05 said:


> The first one is if you purchase a contract from and book up the points in the contract before it transfers to you, it will duplicate most if not all the reservations.



Jason


Does this line need to be edited?  something seems to be missing or I just dont understand the sequence of events. 



 If I purchase a contract, don't  the reservations stay with the seller.. Thats been my experience. In fact  the reverse is why Im in trouble.  I bought contracts, made reservations, sold the contracts and kept the reservations.  But I dont think they doubled

In the picture you paint it sounds like the buyer is making reservations before he has the contract.. how is that possible?


----------



## ronparise

markel said:


> Situation #1 - Wouldn't this be considered theft? If one figured out this "loophole" and knowingly used this tactic to get more points then they actually owned or were entitled to.



sure it could be considered theft.. thats why we are all suspended


----------



## Roger830

It looks like multiple actions cloud the picture.

1. Canceled points not returning to the credit pool make current year points more than the amount owned.

2. Points from stripped contracts left in the account don't equate to amount now owned.

3. Points rolled over from year to year by canceling into a different use year accumulate.

Clearly the only problem area is number 3. Even though the system allowed it, it's not in the rules. Here Wyndham would be justified in grabbing back any points to cover the abuse and if the audit is extensive enough, charge for points so used in prior reservations or subtract points from future years allocations.


----------



## jjmanthei05

ronparise said:


> Jason
> 
> 
> Does this line need to be edited?  something seems to be missing or I just dont understand the sequence of events.
> 
> 
> 
> If I purchase a contract, don't  the reservations stay with the seller.. Thats been my experience. In fact  the reverse is why Im in trouble.  I bought contracts, made reservations, sold the contracts and kept the reservations.  But I dont think they doubled
> 
> In the picture you paint it sounds like the buyer is making reservations before he has the contract.. how is that possible?



If it is the last contract in the member number then all of the reservations transfer with the contract. How this would happen is if you buy it from someone and ask them if you can make some reservations while the transfer is in process. They give you access to the account and you book the reservations under their member number before they transfer or if the original owner had reservations they no longer wanted that came over. 

Jason


----------



## jjmanthei05

markel said:


> Situation #1 - Wouldn't this be considered theft? If one figured out this "loophole" and knowingly used this tactic to get more points then they actually owned or were entitled to.



Actually if you want to get technical, both situations could be considered theft. Since you would be keeping points that you were no longer suppose to have. Each one is a loophole that entitles you to points that shouldn't otherwise be there and I believe the reason for the audits. 

Jason


----------



## skylerlee

*Locked/suspended account*

And yet another one here too.
Owner of 5.5 mil and 2 Platinum accounts.
Ditto Ditto Ditto Debrink's message below.

>>_My account has been suspended too. It was first suspended over a week ago but I was then given partial access by letting me call in to make cancellations and buy guest certificates. Now I have been fully suspended again *but I don't know why*. *I have sent emails and left phone messages so I am just waiting for the call back*. I hope no family vacations get ruined over this.* Why all the hate from Wyndham for owners paying big maintenance fees and sending them new guests to make their presentations to? *Best wishes to all being impacted and hoping for amicable solution._

I see *NO reason *for our locked account to be locked!!
I'm just livid!!!!

PS Re buying contracts/getting extra points. The account here that is locked is an account where the ownership has not changed nor any new contracts bought in the past 10 years!! So this does not apply to our locked account. Go figure. No call back in over one week and account locked, AND...........not even the courtesy of a 'warning' email!! Just tried to access last Monday and it was locked. And saying for financial reason when account IS current, and *no TIMELY *explanation is just totally unethical for we regular paying  members.


----------



## ronparise

skylerlee said:


> And yet another one here too.
> Owner of 5.5 mil and 2 Platinum accounts.
> Ditto Ditto Ditto Debrink's message below.
> 
> >>_My account has been suspended too. It was first suspended over a week ago but I was then given partial access by letting me call in to make cancellations and buy guest certificates. Now I have been fully suspended again *but I don't know why*. *I have sent emails and left phone messages so I am just waiting for the call back*. I hope no family vacations get ruined over this.* Why all the hate from Wyndham for owners paying big maintenance fees and sending them new guests to make their presentations to? *Best wishes to all being impacted and hoping for amicable solution._
> 
> I see *NO reason *for our locked account to be locked!!
> I'm just livid!!!!
> 
> PS Re buying contracts/getting extra points. The account here that is locked is an account where the ownership has not changed nor any new contracts bought in the past 10 years!! So this does not apply to our locked account. Go figure. No call back in over one week and account locked, AND...........not even the courtesy of a 'warning' email!! Just tried to access last Monday and it was locked. And saying for financial reason when account IS current, and *no TIMELY *explanation is just totally unethical for we regular paying  members.



So you didnt get this email

call that number, leave a message They are calling back

Dear Ron Parise,

Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at 877-298-2027 if you have any questions.


----------



## raygo123

jjmanthei05 said:


> Actually if you want to get technical, both situations could be considered theft. Since you would be keeping points that you were no longer suppose to have. Each one is a loophole that entitles you to points that shouldn't otherwise be there and I believe the reason for the audits.
> 
> Jason


If you cast a broad net, a rebuttal is, in due course.
Has it been allowed in the past? Has it been permitted for a reasonable amount of time, that it now is the policy?   Just  thought.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ

If I received one of those emails I'd follow it up with a letter written and USPS-mailed to the Wyndham executive offices, not necessarily for the purpose of getting a complete explanation of the problem (although I'd ask for that) but more as a written record just in case all of this ends up in legal proceedings.

I also would be on the lookout for an attorney who understands timeshares sooner rather than later.  IMO this is more ominous than anything I've ever read on TUG - it's imperative that all of you protect yourselves as much as you can.


----------



## DeniseM

SueDonJ said:


> I also would be on the lookout for an attorney who understands timeshares sooner rather than later.  IMO this is more ominous than anything I've ever read on TUG - it's imperative that all of you protect yourselves as much as you can.



That being said, look-out for the attorney's who troll the timeshare oceans looking for clients.  Just because they approach you does not mean they are knowledgable or qualified to handle this matter.


----------



## SueDonJ

DeniseM said:


> That being said, look-out for the attorney's who troll the timeshare oceans looking for clients.  Just because they approach you does not mean they are knowledgable or qualified to handle this matter.



Good point.  Start with a google search of your state's Bar Association and check there for a lawyer referral service that considers their expertise, rather than responding to random ads or putting out abstract feelers.

Also, print out/copy any related emails from Wyndham with the source and date showing.  The written records will be invaluable if somehow they disappear from Wyndham's system.


----------



## DeniseM

Some of these class action sharks will even contact you under fictitious names pretending to be other owners, or "consumer advocates," who are "just collecting info."  

I would not send info. to anyone unless they will lay their cards on the table, and you can vet them independently.


----------



## ronparise

if you hire  a lawyer assume that they dont know timeshares at all,  very few do. and no way Id hire someone in your home state. Hire someone from Orlando. Tharts where Wyndham is. 

and if you do find one that seems to know what they are doing you might ask if you can refer others of us to them.


----------



## Slinger

*Yikes!*

.......in the midst of buying into the Wyndham program, this is NOT the type of news that I am thrilled to be reading about. I do hope all you guys n gals get it sorted out ASAP with solid explanations of how to move forward unabated.


----------



## littlestar

This makes me very glad I don't own a whole bunch of Wyndham points. Yikes.


----------



## Braindead

jediinprescott said:


> I also had a conversation with Wyndham and the attorney. I can see what the issue is....the point computer or whatever it's called. I own 3.7 million points. I have used about 1.5 and have reservations in the neighborhood of 2.5 million to the end of the year. With all that somehow there are currently 3.6 million showing on my account status ( the only page I can see right now). No clue how they got there. I have not credit pooled anything. I do the cancel/ rebook with pretty good success but not anywhere close to put 3.6 million in the account. I asked them to protect my personal reservations if they decide to do a sweep and they said they would notify me before they start cancelling. I don't know why they need to suspend the account while they audit...they control the computer.
> Mike



Maybe if all of you made a reservation at 60 days or less and got the 50 percent discount - free upgrade. Then cancelled atleast 15 days prior to checkin the cancelled reservation points came back as if no upgrade & discount. If you started out with a reservation for 100k points ended up with a reservation worth 400k points and cancelled the computer gave you 400k back instead of the 100k. I hope this all gets taken care of ASAP for all involved


----------



## Braindead

Braindead said:


> Maybe if all of you made a reservation at 60 days or less and got the 50 percent discount - free upgrade. Then cancelled atleast 15 days prior to checkin the cancelled reservation points came back as if no upgrade & discount. If you started out with a reservation for 100k points ended up with a reservation worth 400k points and cancelled the computer gave you 400k back instead of the 100k. I hope this all gets taken care of ASAP for all involved



If this is what happened and Wyndham could prove somehow the individual knew this and kept doing it repeatedly cheating the system they could be some legal trouble. But it would be very difficult to prove I think. Does Wyndham have the right to pull VIP benefits from someone if they knowingly cheated the system


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I agree with you cancelling and rebooking is a gross abuse of the system and has to be closed, but thats not the subject or purpose of this particular witch hunt.. They are looking for bigger problems, that in my opinion dont exist





jjmanthei05 said:


> I have heard of 3 other owner/mega renters that had their accounts frozen (one of which had 5 million+ points worth of reservations canceled). This is all been deduced from conversations I have with these people. It seems like there are 2 situations they are looking for. The first one is if you purchase a contract from and book up the points in the contract before it transfers to you, it will duplicate most if not all the reservations. SO you will see 2 reservations with the same confirmation number for the same dates and room size. When you cancel both of these reservations you get the point total for each one. So if you have a million point contract, you could turn that into close to 5 to 6 million points by pooling all points and booking reservations before the transfer. Since you shouldn't have gotten these, they will take them back.



It sounds as though this witch hunt may be rooting out some guilty parties, and in that sense it may be justified.  It also sounds as though cancel-rebook might get a pass, which is too bad because it does create artificial competition that reduces the chances of owners to book certain reservations.  It will not change my opinion of the practice.

It is Wyndham's system to run as they see fit.


----------



## CO skier

littlestar said:


> This makes me very glad I don't own a whole bunch of Wyndham points. Yikes.


I don’t think owning a lot of points in Wyndham is the problem.  It was mentioned that a 10 million point account was not frozen.

As a Club Wyndham owner, I am impressed by how quickly and the extent to which they acted to maintain the credibility of the system.


----------



## scootr5

CO skier said:


> As a Club Wyndham owner, I am impressed by how quickly and the extent to which they acted to maintain the credibility of the system.



Quickly? Rolling points has been going on for years. Cancelled points not returning to where they are supposed to go is entirely of Wyndham's own ineptitude when it come to IT changes.


----------



## CO skier

scootr5 said:


> Quickly? Rolling points has been going on for years. Cancelled points not retiring to where they are supposed to go is entirely of Wyndham's own ineptitude when it come to IT changes.



I do not know why everyone is so fixated on the credit pool.

I was referring to those who book reservations before a contract transfer, receive double bookingsw when it is transferred, then cancel and collect double the points (at least that is how I understood what was described).


----------



## acesneights99

This is the worst Wyndham travesty yet. They've taken away unlimited GC, then they took away free family guest certificates and then they stopped selling or transferring 
points and pooling points between accounts. 

Now that we are forced to rent out because a family weekend costs more in GC than point maintenance fees, they freeze my account the day before I wanted to book 8 units for an every two year family reunion. 

By time they get around to unfreezing my account there won't be 8 units left.

So sad. And they couldn't care less.

Guess I should start hanging around the sales office and tell everyone to buy their points for $1 on eBay since at least you won't lose more than a $1 when they decide that they're going to convert your points to a fixed week at the beach in December.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> I do not know why everyone is so fixated on the credit pool.
> 
> I was referring to those who book reservations before a contract transfer, receive double bookingsw when it is transferred, then cancel and collect double the points (at least that is how I understood what was described).



I think Im responsible for the credit pool fixation because in a post in another thread someone asked how it was possible for a 2 million point account to have 8 million points in reservations,, I offered the credit pool as one explanation... and in my case the aggressive use of the credit pool  is exactly how I got into trouble



what you  describe  happens only when you buy the last contract in an account and when there were reservations in that account

I did a lot of buying and selling in the last several years I dont think that ever happened to me.. In fact Jasons post was the first I ever knew such a thing did happen.  

My usual experience is that when I bought something the points came with it exactly as expected, either the current year and the next 2 years , or just the next two years..  I got burned twice as I recall when both the current year and the next year were missing and I only got the third year.. I never got a contract that came with reservations


----------



## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> Quickly? Rolling points has been going on for years. Cancelled points not retiring to where they are supposed to go is entirely of Wyndham's own ineptitude when it come to IT changes.



You beat me too it.. Ive been doing what I do for 3 years.and I gotta say I havent been shy about it.  they knew; apparently they didnt understand.   

This wasnt quick by a longshot


----------



## Braindead

I've been in business and around big business my whole life. I've never seen a business do something like this without cause. I would say the first 2 out of 3 accounts they looked had legitimate problems. Then the blanket came to several accounts and there will be accounts with no problems. But as Ron puts it that's calateral damage. I do hope the cancel rebook comes to an end as a result. It ties up units that are not going to be used. I don't babysit the computer at 60 days or less I've moved on and made other plans.


----------



## SueDonJ

ronparise said:


> if you hire  a lawyer assume that they dont know timeshares at all,  very few do. and no way Id hire someone in your home state. Hire someone from Orlando. Tharts where Wyndham is.
> 
> and if you do find one that seems to know what they are doing you might ask if you can refer others of us to them.



That's why I'd contact your home state Bar Association, Ron, because they'll be able to connect you with an attorney who will be familiar with timeshare/real estate law.  They'll also be able to advise as to whether you need to be dealing with a lawyer licensed to practice in your resident state and/or Florida because that's where Wyndham is.

Contacting the Bar Association should result in a quicker match to a lawyer who will be able to help.  It also will greatly lessen the risks that result from searching ads and/or responding to unsolicited appeals (which this thread is probably generating.)

It's a very good suggestion that once one of you finds a lawyer who's qualified to help, ask if his/her contact information can be passed among all of you.

Good luck!


----------



## CO skier

acesneights99 said:


> This is the worst Wyndham travesty yet. They've taken away unlimited GC, then they took away free family guest certificates and then they stopped selling or transferring
> points and pooling points between accounts.


Look back at the history for those changes about 2006-2007, and you will find that Wyndham did not want to change anything.  A few (or many) megarenters "maximized their ownership" to the detriment of other owners and the program as a whole, so they made changes they thought would be fair to all owners.

It did not work.  Megarenter absorbed the costs or found work arounds.

Do not blame Wyndham, they were and are trying to protect all owners; blame the megarenters for these changes.

Now, the megarenters have been abusing the system, again and as usual, and Wyndham is rounding them up, and freezing account, this time.  It may be a 10 year cycle when Wyndham wakes up and decides to do something about it.

Meanwhile, "regular Joe" Owners in Club Wyndham, who just want to take their family on a vacation, are enjoying their reprieve for a few weeks from the constant onslaught of more than a few megarenters and their "tricks" and finding it easier to reserve their vacations  next July and August.  I hope their families have a great time; they certainly paid enough money for it, unlike the VIP megarenter who will ultimately reserve a summer Bonnet Creek 4 Bedroom Presidential for half the cost of a 1 bedroom, or some other equally equivalent unit.


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> That's why I'd contact your home state Bar Association, Ron, because they'll be able to connect you with an attorney who will be familiar with timeshare/real estate law.  They'll also be able to advise as to whether you need to be dealing with a lawyer licensed to practice in your resident state and/or Florida because that's where Wyndham is.
> 
> Contacting the Bar Association should result in a quicker match to a lawyer who will be able to help.  It also will greatly lessen the risks that result from searching ads and/or responding to unsolicited appeals (which this thread is probably generating.)
> 
> It's a very good suggestion that once one of you finds a lawyer who's qualified to help, ask if his/her contact information can be passed among all of you.
> 
> Good luck!



 Im suggesting an Orlando attorney because it will be cheaper for a guy located in Orlando to meet with the Wyndham attorneys who happen to be in Orlando 
Not to mention Orlando is the timeshare capital of the world . You will have a better chance of finding someone familiar with timeshares in Orlando than anywhere else.  At least that's my opinion

Actually I think paying an attorney at this point is a waste of time and money. Speaking only for myself. I haven't been accused of doing anything wrong. At this point I have every expectation that this thing will be resolved quickly

Now if it drags on much longer or if I am accused of some wrongdoing I'll change my position  but until then I'm cooperating not confronting

My first instinct is to represent myself but if does come to hiring an attorney I'll start with a Florida guy that  I know knows timeshares


----------



## CO skier

Braindead said:


> I do hope the cancel rebook comes to an end as a result.


It is an unfair use of the system.  Why else would those engaged feel compelled to cancel and rebook as fast as possible to exclude anyone else?  It does sell memberships.  Who knows which side Wyndham will favor?

At this point, it seems they will render a verdict in favor of a few VIPs instead of the program as a whole.

But they are clearly looking at everything, and hope springs eternal.

And if Wyndham should decide in favor of the system as a whole, there will have to be paddywagons to hold all the cancel-rebookers.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Im suggesting an Orlando attorney because it will be cheaper for a guy located in Orlando to meet with the Wyndham attorneys who happen to be in Orlando
> Not to mention Orlando is the timeshare capital of the world . You will have a better chance of finding someone familiar with timeshares in Orlando than anywhere else.  At least that's my opinion



If any jurisdiction would favor a timeshare company, it would be Orlando.

Sue where you purchased the timeshare.


----------



## CO skier

Before anyone spends (wastes?) money suing a timeshare company, they may want to review this sad sequence of events.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206007&highlight=westgate+lawsuit

The attorney involved was clearly incompetent for trying to establish that a contract did not exist in a lawsuit for breach of contract (if that is what is was), but it was clearly an uphill battle and a waste of time suing Westgate, despite the egregious behavior on the part of Westgate.


----------



## SueDonJ

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that anybody hire an attorney with the purpose of rallying the troops to sue Wyndham.  I am saying take a little bit of time now to find an attorney who understands timeshares so that when Wyndham does whatever it is they end up doing with these suspended accounts, you and your attorney will be prepared to discuss whether anything that's happened during this process is worth challenging.  Again, be like the Boy Scouts.  

Good lawyers (I hear you laughing but really, there ARE good ones!) will offer a free consultation and beginning guidance such as which state laws prevail.  Take advantage of the referral service the Bar Association provides.  It can't hurt.


----------



## Bigrob

cayman01 said:


> vacationhopeful said:
> 
> 
> 
> PR owners have special inventory and 'finishes' in their units. IMHO, few mega-renters spent the extra money to buy PR points or that "class" of ownership.
> 
> No, what I meant was a PR owner looking for a PR unit and they are all gone as megarenters have them tied up in rental reservations. The "special inventory" advantage is a hoax as I read it. It says 75% of AVAILABLE PR rooms are held for PR. However, once the other 25% is taken it follows that 25% of the "special inventory" becomes open season for everybody til it is gone. And so on til there are no available units. The only true advantage PR has is the 14-13 month window. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong as I am new to Wyndham but have spent a lot of nights pouring over the owner's guide....
> 
> As for the "unwashed masses" I don't think that comes into play. In fact I can be considered an unwashed mass as I picked up a Christmas 5-night vacation at Bonnet Creek ina 4BR Presidential  last year for $550. It's more about looking on eBay and saying " WTF did I spend all that money for?" Seeing a 4BR Presidential for $700 (or less) for a week does not sit well with people that spent $50k for those "special" rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presidential Reserve doesn't work quite that way. ONLY PR owners can book PR units (excepting for the 25% or so that are not expressly held for PR owners) until 30 days prior to check-in. Further, only PR points can be used to book a PR unit (unless it has been released to the "unwashed masses" as either the initial 25% or at 30 days). There is no "and so on". To provide an example: Let's say there are 20 Presidential Reserve 3BR units at Bonnet Creek. 15 of these can ONLY be booked by PR owners until 30 days prior to check-in. Once the first 5 are booked by the "unwashed masses" there is no more availability for them.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bigrob

skylerlee said:


> And yet another one here too.
> Owner of 5.5 mil and 2 Platinum accounts.
> Ditto Ditto Ditto Debrink's message below.
> 
> >>_My account has been suspended too. It was first suspended over a week ago but I was then given partial access by letting me call in to make cancellations and buy guest certificates. Now I have been fully suspended again *but I don't know why*. *I have sent emails and left phone messages so I am just waiting for the call back*. I hope no family vacations get ruined over this.* Why all the hate from Wyndham for owners paying big maintenance fees and sending them new guests to make their presentations to? *Best wishes to all being impacted and hoping for amicable solution._
> 
> I see *NO reason *for our locked account to be locked!!
> I'm just livid!!!!
> 
> PS Re buying contracts/getting extra points. The account here that is locked is an account where the ownership has not changed nor any new contracts bought in the past 10 years!! So this does not apply to our locked account. Go figure. No call back in over one week and account locked, AND...........not even the courtesy of a 'warning' email!! Just tried to access last Monday and it was locked. And saying for financial reason when account IS current, and *no TIMELY *explanation is just totally unethical for we regular paying  members.



Call the number listed on the lockout screen (Wyndham Financial). It is possible you have an Auto-Pay issue. Many people who were using their CostCo cards to pay maintenance fees have had this problem when those cards were cancelled in June (I know because it happened to me and the financial rep I spoke to said it had happened to lots of others). Perhaps that is your case? If so, paying the balance may get your account unlocked within 24 hours.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*my 2 cents*



Slinger said:


> .......in the midst of buying into the Wyndham program, this is NOT the type of news that I am thrilled to be reading about. I do hope all you guys n gals get it sorted out ASAP with solid explanations of how to move forward unabated.



*****
Companies the size of Wyndham have 
SALES
MARKETING 
ACCOUNTING.-  ( ie  BEAN COUNTERS )

skipping marketing - there are times when sales & their goals are dominate 
and then the pendulum swings and the bean counters run / ruin the ship for a while . Then the pendulum swings back because it is hard to grow when sales has no clout or say . 

Right now it sounds like the bean counters at Wyndham are running the Spanish 
Inquisition . 

When folks  like Slinger do not buy because of fear of the future Wyndham , and some on this forum who start wearing the TUG - I paid more for this shirt than my timeshare - Tee Shirt  . all week - at the pool , in the lobby and near the sales office . there is likely to be some movement in the pendulum .

I am seeing Wyndham owners with more than a million points and not a lot of prior TUG posts 
joining this conversation . 

I would love to see how the resort sales team likes their feedback the next time they do a Wyndham owner update .

.


----------



## CO skier

SueDonJ said:


> Good lawyers (I hear you laughing but really, there ARE good ones!) will offer a free consultation and beginning guidance such as which state laws prevail.


Lawyers, good or otherwise, are in the business of billable hours.  They are not in the business of winning lawsuits, unless it is a contingency, in which case the lawyers will get millions and everyone in the class they represent will get nothing in the settlement, or maybe a coupon for something.

It would be more cost effective to accept whatever Wyndham offers, especially if it preserves cancel-rebook (an unbelievably lucky result, from a megarenter's point of view), and proceed from there.

Look at the failed lawsuits of VIP owners Spearman, Sirmon and others.  How much money did the plaintiffs waste on those?


----------



## jebloomquist

CO skier said:


> Do not blame Wyndham, they were and are trying to protect all owners; blame the megarenters for these changes.
> 
> Now, the megarenters have been abusing the system, again and as usual, and Wyndham is rounding them up, and freezing account, this time.  It may be a 10 year cycle when Wyndham wakes up and decides to do something about it.



"Do not blame Wyndham." What? When was the last time you attended an "update"? One of the problems in this thread is that all too frequently Wyndham has been considered as a monolith, where all parts are considered to be thinking exactly the same.

I have been to updates where I have been encouraged to do the half points 1 bedroom followed by an upgrade to a 2 bedroom , and then to hand the reservation back to Wyndham in the Extra Holidays program. There Wyndham will rent it for me at a profit. And of course, please buy extra points from me the humble Wyndham sales person so that you can do this wonderful thing. Just who is ultimately screwing the average owner in this scenario? Actually everybody except Wyndham gets screwed here. All too frequently only part of the reservation actually gets booked by Extra Holidays and the owner submitting to Extra Holidays gets very little.

Wyndham’s aggressive sales policy is at the root of much of this problem. Sucking the life savings out of an unsuspecting public is far more egregious than the mega-renter doing what Wyndham has encouraged owners to do.

Jim


----------



## John or Jane Doe

*My take on all of this*

Consolidating into the following categories, I think this covers it.  Copied from earlier post by Roger830 and modified/added to. 

POOLING. Canceled points not returning to the credit pool make current year points more than the amount owned.
STRIPPING. Points from stripped contracts left in the account don't equate to amount now owned.
ROLLING. Points rolled over from year to year by canceling into a different use year accumulate.
ACCOUNTING. Accounting discrepancies. Duplication of reservations when purchasing contracts and other system issues.

Whether we like any of these scenarios, think they are ethical, etc, or not is irrelevant.   The effect, IMO:

POOLING – This is a Wyndham system issue.  Isn’t this in effect Wyndham charging owners to extend the life of their points, then expiring them early (kind of a reverse ROLLING effect).  Only person benefiting here is Wyndham.  We pay to pool our points, only to have them expire 2 years earlier than they should.

STRIPPING. Allowed by Wyndham policies. We can borrow 2 years in advance and use the points. This has always happened.  What I am seeing here is buyer beware.  And for Wyndham to agree to take back stripped accounts is their own fault and they need to own that.  We call it stripping if someone sells the account, but credit pooling and using the points is okay? Book wise isn’t it the same? As long as someone pays the maintenance, what’s the difference (again, buyer beware).

ROLLING.  Rolling occurred for years. Wyndham was fully aware, it’s been discussed openly on tug . Sales used that it as a selling point to market a contract with a different use year to you for that purpose.  Rolled points are paid for yet not yet used . Perhaps rolled points were somewhat offsetting stripping and/or pooling. Maybe we need to bring it back?

ACCOUNTING.  Wyndham has struggled systematically as long as I’ve been associated with them. Our banks wouldn’t get away with making us liable if they were unable to balance our accounts. Wyndham has yet to be able to resolve very significant issues around point management/points accounting.

I am not justifying the suspension of accounts in any way shape or form.  This sucks. However, auditing a moving target is a challenge. Perhaps suspending accounts gives Wyndham a little help in that area?  That said, their track record is not good. If they can’t manage our points correctly, where’s the credibility of an audit? 

With most things Wyndham, system issues are significant, changes are not well tested, process changes do not seem well thought out nor implemented across the board, and reactions are knee-jerk. The suspension of accounts appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to some very deep rooted, significant, long occurring issues at Wyndham.

Wyndham is the one changing the rules, we adapt. They shouldn’t be able to retroactively change the rules (keeping up moving forward is challenging enough).  If I thought I thought I bought something for a $1, sold it for $2, you can’t go back and change my purchase price to $3. 

They need a group of well-versed owner/users to help them out of this hole!  They need to fix their systems.  Policies and processes need to be implemented across the board and communicated to all departments. 

In summary, my finger of shame points directly back Wyndham. They need to own up to their own inadequacies and stop trying to blame the owners. Buck up and take responsibility Wyndham.


----------



## Designerd

*Cancelled points to credit pool - I prefer*



Roger830 said:


> Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled points to return to the credit pool.
> 
> Now when a Christmas week is canceled and rebooked at a 50% discount in November, the points return to the credit pool not canceled points that had to be used by the end of the year.
> 
> Now in February, for every 1 million Christmas week points that were canceled and rebooked using the credit pool, there will be 1.5 million points for new reservations. The following year 1.75 million points will be available.  Adding the use of future years pooled points compounds the problem.




Hello @Roger 830,
I am not a mega renter, but I wanted to comment that I actually prefer the cancel/credit pool change.  It is not easy to find availability or even personal availability for traveling on the the rule of use cancelled points by end of use year.  Imagine having an end of use year of Sept. and you have to cancel your reservation in August.  What's the possibility of getting a reservation for Sept at a decent place?  Very slim...it's hard to do now with your regular points if you don't book at a Year or 13months in advance.  It does open up the opportunity for someone to rent a good place at the last minute also on the flip side.

This change allowed me not to waste my money by losing the points. It's actually helping me have a few extra points to go to New York next year (daughter dance competition).  Still debating if I want to pay for hotel or speed the high level of points is another story...

But I'm for this change and actually gave Wyndham a thumbs up for this change


----------



## John or Jane Doe

Designerd said:


> But I'm for this change and actually gave Wyndham a thumbs up for this change



Totally agree with the theory.  And if the system worked correctly it would be great. 

Unfortunately, systematically it's buggy and IMO a definite contributor to the issues at hand.

If only Wyndham IT could deliver reliable software!


----------



## Roger830

Designerd said:


> Hello @Roger 830,
> I am not a mega renter, but I wanted to comment that I actually prefer the cancel/credit pool change. It is not easy to find availability or even personal availability for traveling on the the rule of use cancelled points by end of use year. Imagine having an end of use year of Sept. and you have to cancel your reservation in August. What's the possibility of getting a reservation for Sept at a decent place? Very slim...it's hard to do now with your regular points if you don't book at a Year or 13months in advance. It does open up the opportunity for someone to rent a good place at the last minute also on the flip side.



I also like it, but it does have a negative side in allowing aggressive members to secure more prime reservations then entitled to with their regular use year points.

I own weeks 4,5,6 at Hollywood Beach Resort. If I cancel my reservation, I get nothing that year or any other year in return.

I read in the Wyndham manual that the credit pool allows the members the opportunity to secure reservations in the future if they can't travel in the regular use year. That's fine, as was pointed out on other threads, it's similar to banking units and trading. Perhaps when a reservation is made in the credit pool, then canceled, the points should go back to from where they originally came. 2017 canceled points would go back to 2014, 2018 back to 2015. This solves both the credit pool and cancel-rebook problem.


----------



## CO skier

Wyndham revised the Guidelines for WorldMark last January and added a section, Unacceptable Behavior.  While it may not directly relate to this discussion, because WorldMark is a different system, it might provide some insight as to how Wyndham currently views timeshare management.


*8.  Unacceptable Behavior.*  The Club’s Manager, at its sole and reasonable discretion, may restrict Club services and/or access to an Owner who engages in behaviors that negatively impact the WorldMark program, other Owners and Guests, resort properties and/or Manager’s employees. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, the use of verbally threatening language, profanity, inflammatory statements, unrestrained emotional outbursts, manipulation of the Club’s Governing Documents and/or Manager’s employees to gain an unfair advantage, and acts of physical harm or malice toward other Owners and Guests, resort properties and/or Manager’s employees. Such restrictions may include, but are not limited to, refusal to provide services and/or access to owner service center, reservation center, front desk, website, and any telephone communications with Manager’s employees. The Club’s Manager may enforce such restriction for such periods of time as it determines in its sole and reasonable discretion. The Manager shall exercise its discretion under this Section consistent with applicable provisions of the Club's Bylaws, Communication Policy, and any other applicable statutes, policies, or guidelines.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Roger830 said:


> I also like it, but it does have a negative side in allowing aggressive members to secure more prime reservations then entitled to with their regular use year points.
> 
> I own weeks 4,5,6 at Hollywood Beach Resort. If I cancel my reservation, I get nothing that year or any other year in return.
> 
> I read in the Wyndham manual that the credit pool allows the members the opportunity to secure reservations in the future if they can't travel in the regular use year. That's fine, as was pointed out on other threads, it's similar to banking units and trading. Perhaps when a reservation is made in the credit pool, then canceled, the points should go back to from where they originally came. 2017 canceled points would go back to 2014, 2018 back to 2015. This solves both the credit pool and cancel-rebook problem.



The Wyndham system is not able to keep track of points today.  

One would think that what they've recently put in place (elimination of cancelled points) would have been simpler and doable.  It has proven not to be. 

I cannot call and ask a VC what use year points were used for a particular reservation. 

Your suggestion would be more challenging logic, I'd like to see them get the current stuff working first.


----------



## ronparise

John or Jane Doe said:


> Consolidating into the following categories, I think this covers it.  Copied from earlier post by Roger830 and modified/added to.
> 
> POOLING. Canceled points not returning to the credit pool make current year points more than the amount owned.
> STRIPPING. Points from stripped contracts left in the account don't equate to amount now owned.
> ROLLING. Points rolled over from year to year by canceling into a different use year accumulate.
> ACCOUNTING. Accounting discrepancies. Duplication of reservations when purchasing contracts and other system issues.
> 
> Whether we like any of these scenarios, think they are ethical, etc, or not is irrelevant.   The effect, IMO:
> 
> POOLING – This is a Wyndham system issue.  Isn’t this in effect Wyndham charging owners to extend the life of their points, then expiring them early (kind of a reverse ROLLING effect).  Only person benefiting here is Wyndham.  We pay to pool our points, only to have them expire 2 years earlier than they should.
> 
> STRIPPING. Allowed by Wyndham policies. We can borrow 2 years in advance and use the points. This has always happened.  What I am seeing here is buyer beware.  And for Wyndham to agree to take back stripped accounts is their own fault and they need to own that.  We call it stripping if someone sells the account, but credit pooling and using the points is okay? Book wise isn’t it the same? As long as someone pays the maintenance, what’s the difference (again, buyer beware).
> 
> ROLLING.  Rolling occurred for years. Wyndham was fully aware, it’s been discussed openly on tug . Sales used that it as a selling point to market a contract with a different use year to you for that purpose.  Rolled points are paid for yet not yet used . Perhaps rolled points were somewhat offsetting stripping and/or pooling. Maybe we need to bring it back?
> 
> ACCOUNTING.  Wyndham has struggled systematically as long as I’ve been associated with them. Our banks wouldn’t get away with making us liable if they were unable to balance our accounts. Wyndham has yet to be able to resolve very significant issues around point management/points accounting.
> 
> I am not justifying the suspension of accounts in any way shape or form.  This sucks. However, auditing a moving target is a challenge. Perhaps suspending accounts gives Wyndham a little help in that area?  That said, their track record is not good. If they can’t manage our points correctly, where’s the credibility of an audit?
> 
> With most things Wyndham, system issues are significant, changes are not well tested, process changes do not seem well thought out nor implemented across the board, and reactions are knee-jerk. The suspension of accounts appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to some very deep rooted, significant, long occurring issues at Wyndham.
> 
> Wyndham is the one changing the rules, we adapt. They shouldn’t be able to retroactively change the rules (keeping up moving forward is challenging enough).  If I thought I thought I bought something for a $1, sold it for $2, you can’t go back and change my purchase price to $3.
> 
> They need a group of well-versed owner/users to help them out of this hole!  They need to fix their systems.  Policies and processes need to be implemented across the board and communicated to all departments.
> 
> In summary, my finger of shame points directly back Wyndham. They need to own up to their own inadequacies and stop trying to blame the owners. Buck up and take responsibility Wyndham.



I always saw myself as one of those well versed owners that knows the tricks and the loopholes and the problems and that has told Wyndham (either on this forum, or directly) Tthey didn't ask for my advice but I gave it to them

                                   **********************

Years ago, when banks employed people to balance the books instead of computers, I made a $1000 deposit to my account and was credited with $10000. The first I knew of the mistake was at the end of the month when I got my statement. And the bank didn't catch it until I told them  about it. 

That money was not mine. I could have spent it but the bank would have caught their mistake sooner or later. And I would have to give it back or be treated as a thief. 

So Wyndham has finally found some  accounts that have a large number of points unsupported by large ownerships. I think they will find some that are the result of wyndham errors, either poor programming or outright mistakes. (Kinda like the mistake my bank made) In these cases Wyndham will I think, take the points back. And I think they will find some cases where the imbalance is easily explained and absolutely legitimate  and the points will, in those cases, stay. At least that's what I I think now

Bottom line is that if the maintenance fees have been paid or will be paid for every point they ought to stay. And if not, not


And then once this mess is behind us, we ought to see some changes. Better computer systems, and some new rules


----------



## Roger830

Sandi Bo said:


> The Wyndham system is not able to keep track of points today.
> 
> One would think that what they've recently put in place (elimination of cancelled points) would have been simpler and doable.  It has proven not to be.
> 
> I cannot call and ask a VC what use year points were used for a particular reservation.
> 
> Your suggestion would be more challenging logic, I'd like to see them get the current stuff working first.


 
My system is very simple and will work.

Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.

My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.

Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Roger830 said:


> My system is very simple and will work.


You code it, I'll test it!


----------



## Ty1on

Roger830 said:


> My system is very simple and will work.
> 
> Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.
> 
> My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.
> 
> Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.



But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled.  Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year.  Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.


----------



## Roger830

Ty1on said:


> But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled.  Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year.  Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.



Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.

When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost. 

A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.


----------



## Ty1on

Roger830 said:


> Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.
> 
> When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost.
> 
> A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.



This seems roughly the way cancelled points worked before they were ended.

I honestly think the current system could work if they could get it right.


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> My system is very simple and will work.
> 
> Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.
> 
> My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in t2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.
> 
> Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.


I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve with your new code. But I don't think it's a problem Wyndham has

The credit pool is a tool for all owners.  Not just VIP owners 

The credit pool has two functions 1) to extend  points for a member unable to use all their points in a given year 2) to "borrow" future points for use in  the current year 

To my knowledge points in the pool already retain their original use year identity and their association with the contract they came from


There is no abuse with the credit pool as it exists ... Points are not created out of nothing and as long as the owner stays an owner and pays there fees there is no problem to solve

Here's what in talking about

Imagine a new owner with a 105000 point account  this month . He has 2016 points he can use now and he can credit pool his 2017 and 2018 points  so now he has 315000 points in the pool. In January he can credit pool his 2019 points. 

Now imagine he finds a vacancy at a resort for check in March 2017 and he uses all his points for that reservation.  

And when he gets home he decided Wyndham is not for him. So he stops paying mf and the account is foreclosed

What happened from the owners viewpoint is that he got the use of  4 years worth of points  and only paid  8 months fees

What happened from wyndhams viewpoint is that he stole over 300000 credits


That's the potential problem Wyndham needs to solve without screwing up what's a great benefit for non stealing owners

This audit is in my opinion an attempt to find a problem that may not even exist. And if there is a problem to define it and fix it (and to recover stolen points if there are any)


----------



## jjmanthei05

Roger830 said:


> Only the current year could be repooled by a vip who also pooled in that year.
> 
> When a reservation is made with points that were pooled in 2015 that expire in 2018, the reservation would tag them as 2015 points. Then if canceled they would be lost.
> 
> A vip can pool points in the current year. If a reservation is made with those points, it will be tagged as 2016. If canceled, they are still 2016. If it's before Oct 1, then the platinum vip can once again pool them.



I think your looking at this backwards. Your proposed change would have a major affect on your "regular" owners versus the VIP megarenters. Most megarenters are pulling points forward so right now they would have 16, 17 and 18 year points available in the credit pool. In your scenario if they were to book something now, and cancel it. Those points would go back to 2017 making them available again. The person who would truly be affected is a resale/regular owner that pooled last year because they couldn't vacation, booked a reservation for this year and something happened they couldn't go. Under your change, they are out those points and no vacation. I think this would make many more disgruntled owners than the current system. 

Jason


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> But the credit pool lasts 3 years beyond the date they are pooled.  Under this system, owners could still continually extend the points by cancelling and repooling up to end of original use year.  Large enough chunks of points would make it worth the fees.



You can't re pool cancelled pooled points. If you cancel they are supposed go back to having their same expiration date 

Now they don't and that's a problem to fix but it doesn't result in the manufacture of points 

I'm with co skier. Why this obsession with the pool


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> My system is very simple and will work.
> 
> Let me preface my remarks with my background. I had two careers, engineering and IT where I ran a department of two on Honeywell and IBM AS/400 systems and I know that I would have been able to program a system that could keep track of points.
> 
> My system takes the expiration date of the credit pooled points and subtracts 3 years, then assigns that year to the points. Points that expire in 2016, 2017, 2018 would be lost. Those credit pooled in 2016 and expire in 2019 would return back to 2016 where they could once again be credit pooled.
> 
> Remember, the primary function of the credit pool, besides profiting Wyndham, is to extend points for a member unable to use all of the points in a given year, not to provide a means of creating booking currency for VIP's.



Wyndham doesnt profit from the credit pool


----------



## Roger830

ronparise said:


> I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve with your new code. But I don't think it's a problem Wyndham has
> 
> The credit pool is a tool for all owners.  Not just VIP owners
> 
> The credit pool has two functions 1) to extend  points for a member unable to use all their points in a given year 2) to "borrow" future points for use in  the current year
> 
> To my knowledge points in the pool already retain their original use year identity and their association with the contract they came from
> 
> There is no abuse with the credit pool as it exists ...)



There are two problems that I'm solving.

Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability. 

The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units


----------



## bobbyoc23

ronparise said:


> Imagine a new owner with a 105000 point account  this month . He has 2016 points he can use now and he can credit pool his 2017 and 2018 points  so now he has 315000 points in the pool. In January he can credit pool his 2019 points.
> 
> Now imagine he finds a vacancy at a resort for check in March 2017 and he uses all his points for that reservation.
> 
> And when he gets home he decided Wyndham is not for him. So he stops paying mf and the account is foreclosed
> 
> What happened from the owners viewpoint is that he got the use of  4 years worth of points  and only paid  8 months fees
> 
> What happened from wyndhams viewpoint is that he stole over 300000 credits
> 
> 
> That's the potential problem Wyndham needs to solve without screwing up what's a great benefit for non stealing owners



I'm still new to Wyndham and have never credit pooled points (so I definitely haven't considered all associated consequences), but why not make owners pre-pay their maintenance fees when pooling points?


----------



## ronparise

If you are trying to help wyndham in this,   what you need to do is focus on the question at hand... 

How is it possible to seemingly manufacture points?  


and is it a problem of loopholes that need to be closed, or is it a wyndham systems problem that needs to be solved

The credit pool explains some of it (maybe up to a 4:1 ratio of points in the account to points owned)  But not all of it

The cancel and rebook and upgrade thing doesnt explain any of it

what else do you have???


----------



## raygo123

Roger830 said:


> There are two problems that I'm solving.
> 
> Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability.
> 
> The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units


That may be in the fix.  I am doing exactly what you are saying.  I am not a renter, with only 3 GC's ever usedbsince 1987.   I called in and said I want to book a reservation, which I wanted to use credit pool points.  I was told that the VC's can't override system any more.
That my current year points will have to be used first, with the balance coming from the credit pool.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

bobbyoc23 said:


> I'm still new to Wyndham and have never credit pooled points (so I definitely haven't considered all associated consequences), but why not make owners pre-pay their maintenance fees when pooling points?



what difference does it make if I pay my maintenance fees now or later, as long as they are paid.


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## bobbyoc23

It doesn't make a difference as long as you pay your fees, I was trying to address the potential issue of an owner pooling points, using them, and then not paying maintenance fees after using the reservation. Not relevant to the larger questions at hand I suppose...


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> There are two problems that I'm solving.
> 
> Wyndham programmers need a simplar system that comforms to their ability.
> 
> The second problem is one that I foresee. When a vip books with credit pooled points, then cancels and rebooks at a discount, the points saved go back to the credit pool. These points can then be used the following year for prime bookings in addition to their regular year points. This is equvalent to rolling points forward by multiple use years, except that it's allowed by the rules, thus more members will make use of it. It's like inflation, creating currency with no increase in supply of units. This could result in more disgruntled owners not being able to book desirable units



The cancel and rebook thing seems to creates currency, but it doesnt.  In an account that does a lot of cancel and rebookings and credit pooling, you can add up all the points in reservations and available to use, and the total wont exceed 4 years  of ownership

Do what you will to stop  cancel an rebook  and your problem is solved, good job.  But thats not the problem Wyndham is working on today


----------



## ronparise

bobbyoc23 said:


> It doesn't make a difference as long as you pay your fees, I was trying to address the potential issue of an owner pooling points, using them, and then not paying maintenance fees after using the reservation. Not relevant to the larger questions at hand I suppose...



It actually is the exact problem they are trying to solve  because what they see, or think they see, is a ton of points for which no maintenance fees will be paid.


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> The cancel and rebook thing seems to creates currency, but it doesnt.  In an account that does a lot of cancel and rebookings and credit pooling, you can add up all the points in reservations and available to use, and the total wont exceed 4 years  of ownership
> 
> Do what you will to stop  cancel an rebook  and your problem is solved, good job.  But thats not the problem Wyndham is working on today


Your opinion makes alot of sense.  Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> You can't re pool cancelled pooled points. If you cancel they are supposed go back to having their same expiration date
> 
> Now they don't and that's a problem to fix but it doesn't result in the manufacture of points
> 
> I'm with co skier. Why this obsession with the pool



I agree.  Under his suggestion, you could.


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> Your opinion makes alot of sense.  Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



exactly right... (your second guess)


----------



## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Your opinion makes alot of sense.  Probably someone saw a trend in the credit pool, or a problem with a renters account and trying to get everyone on the same page triggered all this where the account had an excessive amount of points vs points owned.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



We keep saying credit pool, but we don't know if it's a credit pool problem or not.


----------



## raygo123

Let's say Ron is right when he said they are looking for people who steal points by one means or another.  The most logical places to look is reservations and the credit pool.  If one or both is out of line with what Wyndham considers normal, then how did this happen?  They must have stolen them!  Eureka!  

So one is tied to other.  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> We keep saying credit pool, but we don't know if it's a credit pool problem or not.





raygo123 said:


> Let's say Ron is right when he said they are looking for people who steal points by one means or another.  The most logical places to look is reservations and the credit pool.  If one or both is out of line with what Wyndham considers normal, then how did this happen?  They must have stolen them!  Eureka!
> 
> So one is tied to other.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



If it was that easy and that simple they would have just taken back their points. They didn't do that. They suspended us and to their credit didn't start with the assumption that we are all crooks. They seem to be looking for reasonable explanations. And i think they are learning  something about their systems and their programs that contributed to this. And by this I mean an imbalance between points in reservations and points owned

They may still just take the points but I don't think that's the way it will go down 
I think there will be as many different resolutions as there are accounts involved


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## raygo123

So you don't think you will be sitting at your desk with two machine guns, one in each hand and cigar clenched between your teeth, say, common coppers you'll never take me alive!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## vacationhopeful

raygo123 said:


> Let's say Ron is right when he said they are looking for people who steal points by one means or another.  The most logical places to look is reservations and the credit pool.  If one or both is out of line with what Wyndham considers normal, then how did this happen?  They must have stolen them!  Eureka!
> 
> So one is tied to other.





raygo123 .... I can balance my checkbook.

Was Wyndham's reservation system HACKED by outside persons or entities? I personally doubt it. Wyndham "points" are not external financial items.

Was Wyndham's reservation system updates flubbed internally and/or updates NOT fully VETTED? That is MY BET. 

This is not something that happened on this day or with that change ... it has been compound for the last 9-10+ months. That is WHY accounts are FROZEN ... Wyndham can't find where the problems (YES, multiple issues) or multiple changes/tweeks in the code as to WHEN it happened ... these accounts are FROZEN for debugging the WHOLE computer system.

Now, if this all gets me my OVERLAPPING cancelled Wyndham points "value restored" from last December thru January ... little hard to "balance the points accounting ledgers" when Wyndham has been vanishing points out of members accounts and OFF the computer system starting back then. Until then, it was possible to added up the Reservation points Used, the Reservations points HELD, and the BORROWED or RENTED Wyndham points.

And I bet the external, outside, corporate computer auditors (and their contractors) are racking up a sizable cost plus tab. 

And it will go on for a LONG TIME .... IMHO.


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## raygo123

vacationhopeful said:


> raygo123 .... I can balance my checkbook.
> 
> Was Wyndham's reservation system HACKED by outside persons or entities? I personally doubt it. Wyndham "points" are not external financial items.
> 
> Was Wyndham's reservation system updates flubbed internally and/or updates NOT fully VETTED? That is MY BET.
> 
> This is not something that happened on this day or with that change ... it has been compound for the last 9-10+ months. That is WHY accounts are FROZEN ... Wyndham can't find where the problems (YES, multiple issues) or multiple changes/tweeks in the code as to WHEN it happened ... these accounts are FROZEN for debugging the WHOLE computer system.
> 
> Now, if this all gets me my OVERLAPPING cancelled Wyndham points "value restored" from last December thru January ... little hard to "balance the points accounting ledgers" when Wyndham has been vanishing points out of members accounts and OFF the computer system starting back then. Until then, it was possible to added up the Reservation points Used, the Reservations points HELD, and the BORROWED or RENTED Wyndham points.
> 
> And I bet the external, outside, corporate computer auditors (and their contractors) are racking up a sizable cost plus tab.
> 
> And it will go on for a LONG TIME .... IMHO.


Yes I believe we all felt that was the underlying problem.  The trigger and the outcome is at question.  
The theft mentioned by Ron was in relation to things like stripped contracts sold and points duplicated or bought stripped and MFs not paid after 3 years of credit pooling has taken place and reservations used.
It had nothing to do with hacking for Euros.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Roger830

ronparise said:


> The cancel and rebook thing seems to creates currency, but it doesnt.  In an account that does a lot of cancel and rebookings and credit pooling, you can add up all the points in reservations and available to use, and the total wont exceed 4 years  of ownership



I agree that cancel and rebook isn't the problem.

If a vip cancels, then rebooks at a 50% discount the points add up.
If the vip uses those points in the current year the only problem that I see is if they cancel by mid February they can the book prime Christmas weeks thus excluding others.

As I stated numerous times, the problem I have is canceling and rebooking with credit pooled points. This frees up points that can then be used in a future year for prime winter and summer weeks.

If a vip has 2,000,000 points booked, then cancels and rebooks, the vip then has 3,000,000 points the next year for prime winter and summer and Christmas weeks.

If the 3,000,000 points are then canceled and rebooked it frees up 1,500,000 points that can be used the following year which now totals 3,500,000 points.

Perhaps your pseudo accounting somehow balances, but all that I see is others being excluded from booking those prime weeks.


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## SilverLeafOwner

CO skier said:


> You misread my post.  I did not call Ron or anyone else a scammer; I called cancel-rebook a scam.  Some people refer to cancel-rebook as a trick or loophole.  It is all synonymous.
> 
> There are many methods to turn 2 million points into 8 million points of reservations.  As I understand the process, a 2 million point Platinum owner can reserve a Bonnett Creek 1 bedroom for 180,000 points plus a few 3 and/or 4 bedroom Presidentials for 385,000 or 424,000 points, respectively.  Within 60 days cancel the 1 bedroom and rebook it for 90,000 points, then cancel one of the Presidentials and upgrade to it, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, cancel another Presidential and upgrade, then rebook the 1 bedroom at half cost, again, and keep repeating until the all the Presidentials are reserved at half the points cost for a 1 bedroom.
> 
> Do it right and with a bit of luck, that is how 2 million points becomes 8 million points of reservations.  At $6/thousand, 2M points costs $12,000 maintenance fees and 8 million points is worth $48,000.  Is this fair use of the system, or is this a scam?  Pay $12,000 and walk out the door with $48,000 worth of 13-month reservations?  Should Wyndham do something about this or not?
> 
> If someone can reserve a 4 bedroom Presidential at 13 months for full points and use it with their family or rent it, that is one thing.  If, instead, they cancel-rebook it for 50% off, or manipulate the reservation system to reserve it at half the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom, that negatively impacts other owners, so it should not be allowed.  That is just my thought, but that and all the money in my pocket will not get me a Starbucks coffee.
> 
> Wyndham’s opinion of the various cancel-rebook schemes is the only opinion that matters. They will investigate and decide to hand the Ferrari keys back to the owners or not.  When something similar happened ten years ago, owner-to-owner points transfers were eliminated.  Could this latest development mean the end of VIP points discounts?  It is not out of the question.  How else could they solve the problem, if they think it is a problem worth solving?
> 
> Megarenting happens, and it will continue to happen.  I think Wyndham is obligated to respond when Owners reserve more than their Fairshare of reservations.




I have to disagree with the characterization of "fairshare" by simply booking or rebooking at discounted points.   This is a program setup as an incentive to entice people to buy more to achieve VIP status and I can't tell you how many times I was told that in order to maximize my ownership I needed to get to platinum status.  Virtually every salesman pitched me the various techniques of cancelling and rebooking as a means to maximize your point values.   There is no "cheating" because this is what they sold me on.  I don't rent my points, but I do use the upgrade and discount point feature the vast majority of times I book.

The bigger issue I have is the Megarenters who go out and get a significant portion of their points from the secondary markets for pennies on the dollar and then are allowed to convert them with a little bit of a deed purchase to a full VIP account with benefits.  Secondary market points should lose all VIP benefits and not be eligible for benefits unless they paid retail price for all the points they puchased (both from Developer and Secondary).   That will eliminate a bulk of the future Megarenters out there  (although I don't know if Wyndham can legally take away people who already achieved their status...but through attrition they will disappear).


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## raygo123

Roger830 said:


> I agree that cancel and rebook isn't the problem.
> 
> If a vip cancels, then rebooks at a 50% discount the points add up.
> If the vip uses those points in the current year the only problem that I see is if they cancel by mid February they can the book prime Christmas weeks thus excluding others.
> 
> As I stated numerous times, the problem I have is canceling and rebooking with credit pooled points. This frees up points that can then be used in a future year for prime winter and summer weeks.
> 
> If a vip has 2,000,000 points booked, then cancels and rebooks, the vip then has 3,000,000 points the next year for prime winter and summer and Christmas weeks.
> 
> If the 3,000,000 points are then canceled and rebooked it frees up 1,500,000 points that can be used the following year which now totals 3,500,000 points.
> 
> Perhaps your pseudo accounting somehow balances, but all that I see is others being excluded from booking those prime weeks.


There will always be others.  I was one for about 30 yrs.  There are VIP platinum that are others.  When the gates open, your chances are equal.    You are also seem to believe that all the availability is dumped in the first day. It's not.  Example, dolphin cove there's more available at 10 months.  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## learnalot

Roger830 said:


> I agree that cancel and rebook isn't the problem.
> 
> If a vip cancels, then rebooks at a 50% discount the points add up.
> If the vip uses those points in the current year the only problem that I see is if they cancel by mid February they can the book prime Christmas weeks thus excluding others.
> 
> As I stated numerous times, the problem I have is canceling and rebooking with credit pooled points. This frees up points that can then be used in a future year for prime winter and summer weeks.



Just to clarify something, points in the credit pool are not eligible to be used for ARP reservations.  They can only be used for bookings within the standard reservation window, so they have to wait until the booking window opens for everyone. (PR being an exception, essentially, because of the dedicated inventory).


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## raygo123

SilverLeafOwner said:


> I have to disagree with the characterization of "fairshare" by simply booking or rebooking at discounted points.   This is a program setup as an incentive to entice people to buy more to achieve VIP status and I can't tell you how many times I was told that in order to maximize my ownership I needed to get to platinum status.  Virtually every salesman pitched me the various techniques of cancelling and rebooking as a means to maximize your point values.   There is no "cheating" because this is what they sold me on.  I don't rent my points, but I do use the upgrade and discount point feature the vast majority of times I book.
> 
> The bigger issue I have is the Megarenters who go out and get a significant portion of their points from the secondary markets for pennies on the dollar and then are allowed to convert them with a little bit of a deed purchase to a full VIP account with benefits.  Secondary market points should lose all VIP benefits and not be eligible for benefits unless they paid retail price for all the points they puchased (both from Developer and Secondary).   That will eliminate a bulk of the future Megarenters out there  (although I don't know if Wyndham can legally take away people who already achieved their status...but through attrition they will disappear).


Have you learned nothing about how and when to make reservations?

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## richardm

*The biggest liar is usually the first one to point fingers...*



raygo123 said:


> There will always be others.  I was one for about 30 yrs.  There are VIP platinum that are others.  When the gates open, your chances are equal.    You are also seem to believe that all the availability is dumped in the first day. It's not.  Example, dolphin cove there's more available at 10 months.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Thank you for the reality check... Some members are more educated and experienced in getting the reservations they want. That isn't a crime. That's the goal!  In the world of timesharing, there will always be at least 75% of the ownership base that is disappointed they didn't get the prime season reservation. The trick is to try and be in the other 25%....  It takes research, planning, and hours of work with the hope of squeezing as much value from a timeshare ownership as possible. I'm pretty sure that's something Tug has been recommending for years! 

Wyndham corporate has been cultivating the "megarenter" propaganda for years now, using that term to stir the masses into a frenzy and to create a mythical scapegoat who diabolically steals all the best reservations. It's like a bad babysitter invoking the boogeyman to keep the kids scared in bed with the covers pulled over their heads. 

Wyndham's marketing relies on the VIP discounts, cancel & rebook strategy, as well as the promise of rental profits to sell VIP upgrades on a daily basis. They have "owner education" material that touts the benefits of these VIP strategies. They create the rules used to book reservations. They develop and operate the website portal. They monitor and manage the "points" currency used to book these reservations. And yet somehow, they've managed to convince some people that they aren't to blame when something in their system goes awry... 

What sales weasels sell best is hope.. They repackage the same product in new wrapping and promise this new flavor will be much more satisfying than the old one. When this circus ends, they'll walk out to the sales floor with banners and trumpets telling everyone the system has now been fixed- and all you have to do is upgrade to Wyndham 7.0 to truly experience the wonder of vacation ownership...  Then, they'll look the target straight in the eye and tell them that discounting their reservations is the best way to stretch that maintenance fee dollar and if they just rent all those "free" points- why that will be a great way to recover some of your annual costs!

Funny that they now want to blame the few who actually listened for using that advice...


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## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> I agree that cancel and rebook isn't the problem.
> 
> If a vip cancels, then rebooks at a 50% discount the points add up.
> If the vip uses those points in the current year the only problem that I see is if they cancel by mid February they can the book prime Christmas weeks thus excluding others.
> 
> As I stated numerous times, the problem I have is canceling and rebooking with credit pooled points. This frees up points that can then be used in a future year for prime winter and summer weeks.
> 
> If a vip has 2,000,000 points booked, then cancels and rebooks, the vip then has 3,000,000 points the next year for prime winter and summer and Christmas weeks.
> 
> If the 3,000,000 points are then canceled and rebooked it frees up 1,500,000 points that can be used the following year which now totals 3,500,000 points.
> 
> Perhaps your pseudo accounting somehow balances, but all that I see is others being excluded from booking those prime weeks.




It adds a up because 2000+2000+2000=1000+1500+3500


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## Roger830

The points have to balance, but the reservations don't reflect the original intent of the discount. It's stated in the manual that the discount is for reservations made close to checkin date.

Also, I'm well aware that credit pool points do not have arp.

Even though everyone has an equal chance, some that would have gotten a prime week will be excluded because of canceled credit pooled points rolling over into the next year.


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## raygo123

Roger830 said:


> The points have to balance, but the reservations don't reflect the original intent of the discount. It's stated in the manual that the discount is for reservations made close to checkin date.
> 
> Also, I'm well aware that credit pool points do not have arp.
> 
> Even though everyone has an equal chance, some that would have gotten a prime week will be excluded because of canceled credit pooled points rolling over into the next year.


It seems that one problem here is the fact that we are all owners.  It is supposed to be but it is not.  Someone did it, cancel rebook.  It worked, and exploited.  It HAS become the policy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> The points have to balance, but the reservations don't reflect the original intent of the discount. It's stated in the manual that the discount is for reservations made close to checkin date.
> 
> Also, I'm well aware that credit pool points do not have arp.
> 
> Even though everyone has an equal chance, some that would have gotten a prime week will be excluded because of canceled credit pooled points rolling over into the next year.



This may be nothing but rationalization on my part but the reservations are made close to check in

The technique (or scam if you like) is a three step process.  

1) cancel your reservation  and as you know when you cancel the reservation becomes available to every other owner. and the guy that cancels gets his points to use again. 

2) search for an available reservation. You have to do this quickly because as you know all 500000 owners may be searching for the very same reservation. 

3) make a new reservation

To get the discount step 3 has to be within 60 days of check in


All three of these steps are well within the rules of the club  there is nothing wrong with cancelling and rebooking  except maybe (as you say) it goes against the intent of the discount program which was meant do two things, 1) keep heads in the beds, and 2) provide a benefit to help Wyndham extract more money from potential customers. OH wait ... both goals are still being achieved.  


Now lets look at whether any other owners are being hurt as a result. 

You make the point that certain high demand reservations would be available to you, except for the fact that certain owners (VIP) get a discount get a discount.. I would argue that thats just not the case.. Lets look at how I operate with my discount and without my discount

Ill use my favorite high demand reservations as an example. Mardi Gras (February) and the Essence Music Festival (July)   There was a time before I had a VIP account that I took as many of my points as I had and at 13  months and again at 10 months made reservations for these two events. Because these were in such high demand I always had points that I didnt get placed in these reservations that I could use for some other event  I didnt cancel my reservations  and they were never made available to other owners (unless they rented from me) 

Now flash forward a few years and a am a VIP owner.  I make the Mardi gras reservations and hold  them until the 60 day mark when I cancel .  The points come back to my account and I can use them again,, which of course I do, except now it only takes half of them to rebook the Mardi Gras reservations I cancelled.  The other half I hold to make the Essence fest reservations. 

I know you will say that makes your point. I couldnt have made those Essence Fest reservations except that I had those cancelled points to use. But It doesnt make any difference, I have 30 million points, and other owners have millions and millions more.  If I didnt have those cancelled points I would use other points. and If I dont make those reservations some other owner will, and if you arent quick enough 10 months in advance of your favorite reservation, you will miss out. My "VIP bonus" doesnt make life any more difficult for you than it would be otherwise

 The point is that there will always be more points chasing those  high demand reservations, than you would like and there will always be a scramble for them and some of us will have more points to use than others. and not everyone will get what they want

It really doesnt matter whether I cancel and rebook inside the 60 day window to generate those "extra " points.  What if I just make a reservation at half price within 60 days.. I use half my credit pooled points for that reservation and have half left to add to next years points to make that high demand reservation...  same thing,  and my "extra" points arent hurting anyone. 


Bottom line is that VIP owners get the use of more points than non VIP owners and thats by design to make things easier in the sales room. 

Understand I harbor no illusions, I know how it looks and I know how it feels (thats why I became a VIP myself). and I understand the complaints.. And Im pretty sure Wyndham will change things to prevent the cancel an rebook strategy (scam) .  Not because it will help you or other non VIP owners, It wont. They will do it because they need to stop the complaints.  The main thing that Wyndham needs in the sales room is a happy and satisfied owner base that is eager to buy more and refer their friend to buy for the first time. .


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## Roger830

Ron,

I've read most of your post over the years and know that you are reasonable and fair in your approach to using the system. You are making the best use of what Wyndham has been available and promoted by the sales staff.

I am under no delusion that everyone can get what they what from the system. As you and others have stated in the past, the basic timeshare model is flawed, whether points or fixed weeks. Perhaps it's works well in a state like Hawaii that has a 12 month season, most resorts have much shorter seasons, but 52 weeks of owners.

If Wyndham wanted to correct the perceived injustice of the cancel-rebook tactic, all that they would have to do is have canceled reservations come back the next morning. If everyone has the same change of booking a prime reservation at 10 months, surely nobody could disagree that is equally fair to give everybody a shot at booking canceled reservations at 7AM.


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## raygo123

Injustice, or reward for purchasing developer points?  It is not like we bought resale to get this benifit for a Penny on the dollar.  This is part of "club Wyndham" and the benifits that go with it.  I performed by buying direct points and enough to warrant the extra benifits.  Everyone has the same opportunity to do the same.  But oh no I'm not going to be a sucker that pays an outrageous price for points!  If that's the case, your not going to get the benifits, it's that simple.

Fair, what's fair?  Is it fair for resale buyers to think that they should get special treatment? Why?  It's bad enough that CWA contracts benifits get passed along to resale.  The only thing is that the original owner paid full price, and is entitled to some increased compensation.

why shouldn't I be treated better?  Besides, cancel and rebook, and the ability to credit pool at 6 or 9 months are  the few benifits we get when we pay thousands to buy into the Wyndham program that are worth something.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Now lets look at whether any other owners are being hurt as a result.


Just for the sake of illustration, let us imagine there are 10 studios at Avenue Plaza for 126,000 points.  You want to book five of them, and five other owners want to book one for Mardi Gras.  Everybody reserves what they want.

Now let’s say that an owner ran Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade at Bonnet Creek for some New Years reservations and booked three 3 bedroom Presidentials for 270,000 points.  The three units were originally booked for 1,155,000 points.  Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade generated 885,000 points that this owner can now use elsewhere in the system, and why not Mardi Gras?

In a purely theoretical and extreme example to demonstrate the point let’s imagine that the Cancel-Rebook owner could reserve the maximum five studios he could afford – 630,000 points cost with 255,000 points leftover to book something else another day.  Maybe you were able to reserve the other five studios, and it was the five individual owners who were eventually cut out, or maybe the remaining five units were split, with individual owners reserving three studios and you were only able to reserve two.  In any case, Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade generated enough points for an owner to use, that five owners were squeezed out of what they wanted to reserve. 

This is just a theoretical exercise.  There are all sorts of real life red herrings that can be introduced into this example – Mardi Gras is so popular that the owner could reserve only one unit at 10 months, or other owners have millions and millions more points, or if you aren’t quick enough 10 months in advance of your favorite reservation, you will miss out, or there will always be more points chasing high demand reservations, than you would like and there will always be a scramble for them and some of us will have more points to use than others. and not everyone will get what they want.

What all this ignores, and what I think is the point that Roger830 makes is that the Cancel-Rebook and Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade scams generate millions of points that otherwise would not be in the owners account, and these points can be used to compete at any resort.  If a 2 million point owner can use the scams to reserve 6.72 million points of reservations, the extra 4.72 million points are coming from somewhere, they are viable, and they unfairly increase the competition for reservations.

The owner paid maintenance fees for 2 million points.  Who is paying the maintenance fees for the other 4.72 million points?


To paraphrase Everett Dirksen, “A million points here, a million points there, and pretty soon you are talking about a real scam.”


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## outofthewoodwork

ronparise said:


> I always saw myself as one of those well versed owners that knows the tricks and the loopholes and the problems and that has told Wyndham (either on this forum, or directly) Tthey didn't ask for my advice but I gave it to them
> 
> **********************
> 
> Years ago, when banks employed people to balance the books instead of computers, I made a $1000 deposit to my account and was credited with $10000. The first I knew of the mistake was at the end of the month when I got my statement. And the bank didn't catch it until I told them  about it.
> 
> That money was not mine. I could have spent it but the bank would have caught their mistake sooner or later. And I would have to give it back or be treated as a thief.
> 
> So Wyndham has finally found some  accounts that have a large number of points unsupported by large ownerships. I think they will find some that are the result of wyndham errors, either poor programming or outright mistakes. (Kinda like the mistake my bank made) In these cases Wyndham will I think, take the points back. And I think they will find some cases where the imbalance is easily explained and absolutely legitimate  and the points will, in those cases, stay. At least that's what I I think now
> 
> Bottom line is that if the maintenance fees have been paid or will be paid for every point they ought to stay. And if not, not
> 
> 
> And then once this mess is behind us, we ought to see some changes. Better computer systems, and some new rules




I am a longtime Wyndham owner (back to Fairfield) and I have been a comprehensive reader and rare poster when I felt like I had something to offer on the old Yahoo boards and TUG for years. I am not a mega renter and use my points for my own or families use most of the time.  While I do not understand all the ins and outs of how mega renters operate, this topic is very interesting to me and I am going to offer my opinion.  

I have no problem with mega renters using the system to it's full extent (credit pool, rolling points, cancel/rebook, etc.) In fact, I applaud them.  As long as they stay with the framework of the system and use it to its full extent, more power to them! As many have said, Wyndham has sold this for many years.  

However, if as some have suggested, they are "generating" points with a tactic that is not within the rules or not intended, and is creating something that they did not pay for and did not expect to get but only received due to glitch in the system that is *stealing* plain and simple. Call it what you want and justify it however you may, but it is still stealing. (I appreciate Ron's honesty and his bank example is a good parallel.) Anybody who knowing and willfully used a method that might do this should be held accountable for their actions. If this is the case (and I have no idea if it is or not), I hope Wyndham finds out who it is and appropriately punishes them to the highest extent of the law. If it is not the case, they should unsuspend accounts sooner rather than later and let people get back to doing what they do.


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## Roger830

raygo123 said:


> I performed by buying direct points and enough to warrant the extra benifits.
> 
> why shouldn't I be treated better?  Besides, cancel and rebook, and the ability to credit pool at 6 or 9 months are  the few benifits we get when we pay thousands to buy into the Wyndham program that are worth something.



Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.

I have the 2013-1014 manual. 
Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
Receive discounts on NEW reservations only

I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.

If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> Just for the sake of illustration, let us imagine there are 10 studios at Avenue Plaza for 126,000 points.  You want to book five of them, and five other owners want to book one for Mardi Gras.  Everybody reserves what they want.
> 
> Now let’s say that an owner ran Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade at Bonnet Creek for some New Years reservations and booked three 3 bedroom Presidentials for 270,000 points.  The three units were originally booked for 1,155,000 points.  Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade generated 885,000 points that this owner can now use elsewhere in the system, and why not Mardi Gras?
> 
> In a purely theoretical and extreme example to demonstrate the point let’s imagine that the Cancel-Rebook owner could reserve the maximum five studios he could afford – 630,000 points cost with 255,000 points leftover to book something else another day.  Maybe you were able to reserve the other five studios, and it was the five individual owners who were eventually cut out, or maybe the remaining five units were split, with individual owners reserving three studios and you were only able to reserve two.  In any case, Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade generated enough points for an owner to use, that five owners were squeezed out of what they wanted to reserve.
> 
> This is just a theoretical exercise.  There are all sorts of real life red herrings that can be introduced into this example – Mardi Gras is so popular that the owner could reserve only one unit at 10 months, or other owners have millions and millions more points, or if you aren’t quick enough 10 months in advance of your favorite reservation, you will miss out, or there will always be more points chasing high demand reservations, than you would like and there will always be a scramble for them and some of us will have more points to use than others. and not everyone will get what they want.
> 
> What all this ignores, and what I think is the point that Roger830 makes is that the Cancel-Rebook and Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade scams generate millions of points that otherwise would not be in the owners account, and these points can be used to compete at any resort.  If a 2 million point owner can use the scams to reserve 6.72 million points of reservations, the extra 4.72 million points are coming from somewhere, they are viable, and they unfairly increase the competition for reservations.
> 
> The owner paid maintenance fees for 2 million points.  Who is paying the maintenance fees for the other 4.72 million points?
> 
> 
> To paraphrase Everett Dirksen, “A million points here, a million points there, and pretty soon you are talking about a real scam.”


I'm not a mega renter, although I have rented to family at cost, and once to a tugger that needed a last minute reservation, at my discounted value, I bought, and spent my money to get this benifit, which I deserve.  No, I'm not happy with mega renters with millions of points booking high demand, but like me they layed down the cash, which all owners can do.  It's a pay up, or shut up senario, and Wyndham knows it.  When you go to a presentation, that's basically what you are told.  You need to upgrade and here is what you get. YOU choose to not take advantage of this benifit.  This is all part of the incentive to get you to buy, and now I'm the the one that has to give up what I paid for?  Because you think it's a scam?  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## raygo123

Roger830 said:


> Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.
> 
> I have the 2013-1014 manual.
> Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
> Receive discounts on NEW reservations only
> 
> I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.
> 
> If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.


As I said earlier, it was tried it works and Wyndham has even incorporates it into their presentations.  It is new, in that it is made under the discount window, just not the first time.  By the way nice picture.  Apparently when you bought, you did not do enough homework, or enough presentations to understand the full program, or you would have had knowledge of all this.  If you did buy direct, the good news is it's not too late for you to enjoy the same benifits. 

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## bestresort

*what difference does it make if I pay my maintenance fees now or later, as long as th*



ronparise said:


> what difference does it make if I pay my maintenance fees now or later, as long as they are paid.



what difference does it make if I pay my maintenance fees now or later, as long as they are paid.

because some people never pay them..you know that..,


----------



## bestresort

The problem is people that strip the contract of points , use them, then dump the contracts back to Wyndham or some other dope

Theft completed.

Book rebook is a red herring


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## buckor

I've been reading this train of posts since the beginning. And I do have an opinion...please remember it is just that, my opinion.

When my wife and I went to our presentation we were told about the benefits of VIP. One of those benefits was the ability to book reservations at a discount and possibly get a free upgrade,  assuming there was availability during that window. No one said anything about cancel-rebook. And, the book says nothing about cancel-rebook as an option...for anyone. 

I think the point many here are trying to make is that the VIP experience is SUPPOSED to be available based on available inventory in the system, not inventory created by someone cancelling a reservation to create said inventory. This goes against the very idea of allowing VIP owners access to "extra" inventory as a perk of ownership....becausr let's be honest, that's what you were sold, not cancel-rebook. 

If anyone disagrees with the above please show where in your contract they offered cancel-rebook as an option. It's not there...and has been stated many times in other posts, if it's not in the contract it's not part of the deal.

The whole point is that VIPs getting the points discounts and upgrades is SUPPOSED to br from inventory not already reserved by all the other owners. While the system allows cancel-rebook no one can say that it is an intended consequence.

Someone made the point that the way the current system is run that a megarenter "generates " millions of additional points for them to use to rent other, high demand properties under the current system. These extra millions of points "generated" by cancel-rebook creates more competition for rooms...something, again, not intended but has been allowed. If VIPs were able to use their points for discounts and cancel-rebook according to the book, while inventory would not increase, demand would decrease allowing more owners to be happy with their purchases.

Many an argument has been made that people are unhappy with their Wyndham purchase because they aren't willing to understand the reservation timeline and process. Should they, then, not be told about megarenters in their presentation from Wyndham and told that if you really want a high demand week you better be on the phone at 7am at 13 months? No, people are not told this because the system was designed for VIPs to use the excess inventory, not create excess inventory.

VIPs are using the system, literally the technology, to their advantage. Kudos. It is technically legal. But then to turn around and tell someone they made a bad purchase because they are frustrated with available inventory knowing that, as a megarenter,  you have booked a significant portion of the available rooms (in combination with other megarenters)  Of a high demand week, is, well,  a questionable practice at the least.

The whole Wyndham concept is designed around individuals enjoying vacations with their families...not setting up vacation businesses using the Wyndham resorts as the backbone.

If this is going to change Wyndham must make the change....i doubt megarenters are going To voluntarily leave inventory in place so I can book the vacation my family wants to take.

Just my $.02.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## Roger830

raygo123 said:


> As I said earlier, it was tried it works and Wyndham has even incorporates it into their presentations.  It is new, in that it is made under the discount window, just not the first time.  By the way nice picture.  Apparently when you bought, you did not do enough homework, or enough presentations to understand the full program, or you would have had knowledge of all this.  If you did buy direct, the good news is it's not too late for you to enjoy the same benifits.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Believe me when I tell you I knew what benefits were available to retail and resale buyers before I bought. I lurked here for years before I became a member, plus I've been a timeshare owner since 2000.

I have met disgruntled members at resorts. A vip that I met week 3 was upset because he wasn't able to book week 4, which I knew was available at 7AM 10 months prior but I didn't tell him.

It's bad for the system if the owners that paid $30,000 for a week are excluded from booking a prime week because others have more than their fair share.

So far I've been pleased with my reservations. I have a fixed week 7 in Pompano and enough low cost points for about another 2 weeks. I had a January week in Florida and 4 days in San Diego. I have 1 day next week in NY, then a day the following week in Newport.


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## Bigrob

Roger830 said:


> Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.
> 
> I have the 2013-1014 manual.
> Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
> Receive discounts on NEW reservations only
> 
> I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.
> 
> If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.



I believe it used to work like this in the past. Wyndham has experimented with differing times for the cancellations to come back. And as you may know, some of them never come back for various reasons. Since the VCs see these reservations come back immediately, and they do work with owners to get reservations and upgrades, that has been the backup plan when it becomes riskier to cancel/rebook.

The problem here is, mega renters know those risks and therefore book MORE units as a result (at least until the Nightly Unit Limit was put into effect). My concern is that if it is made into a riskier proposition, the result will be even more prime inventory tied up to "manage the risk". 

So I don't think this is the answer. However, my guess is that Wyndham is working on other things to address the cancel/rebook "trick". It could even be something that would be viewed as a benefit to many owners, such as implementing a waitlist like Worldmark has, or automating upgrades so you don't have to keep looking for them. Either of these would address and essentially eliminate cancel/rebook (the exception is that huge points managers with hundreds of accounts will still find ways to "work" the system by immediately adding dozens of requests into the waitlist from multiple accounts). The other thing is it would at least reduce, if not eliminate, the "excess" bookings for "risk mitigation" of the cancel/rebook process. 

This would negatively impact a small segment of owners that Wyndham likes - VIP owners that use cancel/rebook for personal use only - while negatively impacting the target group of VIP owners that they don't like that participate in rental activity. But most VIP owners don't use cancel/rebook and would simply notice that there is more inventory to book, and if what they want isn't immediately available they can put themselves on the waitlist and have a fair chance to get their wanted reservation, and they don't have to keep looking for an upgrade. Given these factors, if I were a betting man, that is what I would put money on that Wyndham is working on, since it addresses the "megarenter" problem and improves the ownership experience for "Joe Average" VIP owner simultaneously.


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## Braindead

The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.


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## Sandi Bo

Braindead said:


> The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.



Actually, it may be what makes the units available to us. Careful what you wish for!!!

People need to learn the system.  Time put in pays off.  Do your homework!  I have spent hours and hours, made mistakes along the way, and figured out how to use our ownership and make a little money on the way.  That using a 1.5M VIP account. I could be the Wyndham sales poster child.  

The megarenters provide last minute reservations.  If it weren't for them, how would we ever get reservations after the 10 month mark?  It's really anyone cancelling, but surely megarenters more than others. If I want a reservation, I watch that particular resort.  I watch the patterns for how the reservations come back in, do they come back in? I do my homework.

For example, when my son in law's family wanted to go to New Orleans for the Final Four a few years back. I had never booked a room in New Orleans. So I started watching how reservations were coming back into inventory.  Based on patterns I was seeing, told them I thought I could do it (also suggesting they book a cancellable backup).  They stayed in a presidential unit.  I've gotten my brother bike week at Daytona Beach (more than once). As a rule (there are exceptions), anything is possible if you are willing to put the time/effort into.  

Those rooms aren't there the first time I look, or the second time...  It does take some work. 

Those reservations are available to anyone.  You do have to work for it.  

Friends and family laugh, they know me.  When my alarm goes off, there's something I need to check on Wyndham.  5:55am at the gym this morning (so I wouldn't forget to be checking something at 6am CT when the system's online).  There's nothing VIP about that!


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> Ron,
> 
> I've read most of your post over the years and know that you are reasonable and fair in your approach to using the system. You are making the best use of what Wyndham has been available and promoted by the sales staff.
> 
> I am under no delusion that everyone can get what they what from the system. As you and others have stated in the past, the basic timeshare model is flawed, whether points or fixed weeks. Perhaps it's works well in a state like Hawaii that has a 12 month season, most resorts have much shorter seasons, but 52 weeks of owners.
> 
> If Wyndham wanted to correct the perceived injustice of the cancel-rebook tactic, all that they would have to do is have canceled reservations come back the next morning. If everyone has the same change of booking a prime reservation at 10 months, surely nobody could disagree that is equally fair to give everybody a shot at booking canceled reservations at 7AM.



That's an excellent proposal and I often do just that. I cancel at 11:44 pm and do my rebooking at 7 am the next day. 

It doesn't matter whether I do it that way or not. There is always the chance someone will beat me to it and I'll lose it but because I know when it's coming back my chances are better than even that I'll get it

Remember (as has been said) I make more reservations at 13 months or 10 months than I expect to end up with.   I fully expect to lose some. No matter; there are other reservations for other events that I can make with the cancelled points

And if it turns out that Wyndham institutes a waiting list I'll just not cancel unless I know I'm at the top of the list.    I'll make less on each reservation I make so to make up for it I'll buy more points and make more reservations.   And I guess according to you , because I get more than my fair share I'll be screwing the little guy


Be careful what you ask for. Because you might get it and if you do my guess is that the megarenters will get bigger. And concentrate their activity at the highest of the high demand events   The regular guy will never get a weekend at glacier canyon or Christmas at bonnet creek or Mardi Gras

FYI there are only about 300 Wyndham  and Worldmark units in New Orleans   I get about 50 a year now for Mardi Gras . Anticipating anti renter changes by both clubs to attack my profits ,(I anticipate an end to cancel and rebook with wyndham)  I'm  making adjustments to what I do, to double that number by 2020. ( and none of this has anything to do with the recent suspensions) By the way Worldmark has no discount program but we hear the same kinds of complaints about large scale renting there  as in club Wyndham


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## Braindead

Sandi Bo said:


> Actually, it may be what makes the units available to us. Careful what you wish for!!!
> 
> People need to learn the system.  Time put in pays off.  Do your homework!  I have spent hours and hours, made mistakes along the way, and figured out how to use our ownership and make a little money on the way.  That using a 1.5M VIP account. I could be the Wyndham sales poster child.
> 
> The megarenters provide last minute reservations.  If it weren't for them, how would we ever get reservations after the 10 month mark?  It's really anyone cancelling, but surely megarenters more than others. If I want a reservation, I watch that particular resort.  I watch the patterns for how the reservations come back in, do they come back in? I do my homework.
> 
> For example, when my son in law's family wanted to go to New Orleans for the Final Four a few years back. I had never booked a room in New Orleans. So I started watching how reservations were coming back into inventory.  Based on patterns I was seeing, told them I thought I could do it (also suggesting they book a cancellable backup).  They stayed in a presidential unit.  I've gotten my brother bike week at Daytona Beach (more than once). As a rule (there are exceptions), anything is possible if you are willing to put the time/effort into.
> 
> Those rooms aren't there the first time I look, or the second time...  It does take some work.
> 
> Those reservations are available to anyone.  You do have to work for it.
> 
> Friends and family laugh, they know me.  When my alarm goes off, there's something I need to check on Wyndham.  5:55am at the gym this morning (so I wouldn't forget to be checking something at 6am CT when the system's online).  There's nothing VIP about that!



You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.


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## Braindead

And if Wyndham grabs it none of us get it


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## outofthewoodwork

Roger830 said:


> Ron,
> 
> I've read most of your post over the years and know that you are reasonable and fair in your approach to using the system. You are making the best use of what Wyndham has been available and promoted by the sales staff.
> 
> I am under no delusion that everyone can get what they what from the system. As you and others have stated in the past, the basic timeshare model is flawed, whether points or fixed weeks. Perhaps it's works well in a state like Hawaii that has a 12 month season, most resorts have much shorter seasons, but 52 weeks of owners.
> 
> If Wyndham wanted to correct the perceived injustice of the cancel-rebook tactic, all that they would have to do is have canceled reservations come back the next morning. If everyone has the same change of booking a prime reservation at 10 months, surely nobody could disagree that is equally fair to give everybody a shot at booking canceled reservations at 7AM.



That is exactly how the system used to work years ago.  Cancellations were not available until the opening of business the next day.


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## Sandi Bo

Braindead said:


> You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.



I'm booking a last minute reservation.  It was available to you, too.  Thankful that someone (not me) cancelled it.  I got it cheaper, why do you care?  Pay for VIP Platinum if you want a VIP Platinum discount.



Braindead said:


> And if Wyndham grabs it none of us get it



And that's my fault?


----------



## Braindead

Sandi Bo said:


> I'm booking a last minute reservation.  It was available to you, too.  Thankful that someone (not me) cancelled it.  I got it cheaper, why do you care?  Pay for VIP Platinum if you want a VIP Platinum discount.


If you know the system you can create your upgrade. You need help from someone else cancelling


----------



## uscav8r

Roger830 said:


> Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the 2013-1014 manual.
> 
> Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
> 
> Receive discounts on NEW reservations only
> 
> 
> 
> I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.
> 
> 
> 
> If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.



Cancel-rebook is not explicitly stated, but it does not need to be. The policies for cancellation and for booking are explicitly stated, and there is no explicit BAN of sequential use of either reservation feature. You can tilt at this particular windmill all you want, but you won't convince many that the technique is outside of guidelines. I am not even a megarenter, and I don't see how this technique is "illegal." The room has come back into the system, and several posters have mentioned how they have NOT been able to rebook on an increasing basis in recent years. In other words, there are no guarantees the technique will work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> You are tieing up a high point unit keeping it from the rest of us. Hoping to get it for a 1/4 or less of the origanal point value.





Thats exactly right, and every other owner that makes a reservation does the same.  Everyone that makes a reservation (high point value or not) is selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us. 

That a VIP owner might be able to use their ownership to get it at a discount doesnt change that

I cant even accept your argument that the second, low value reservation ussd for the upgrade part of a cancel/rebook/cancel/upgrade strategy is being kept from the rest of the owners unfairly .Because for me the last part of the strategy is another rebook. I want that reservation too.  Im certainly keeping those reservations from the rest of you, but not unfairly.


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> Thats exactly right, and every other owner that makes a reservation does the same.  Everyone that makes a reservation (high point value or not) is selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us.
> 
> That a VIP owner might be able to use their ownership to get it at a discount doesnt change that
> 
> I cant even accept your argument that the second, low value reservation ussd for the upgrade part of a cancel/rebook/cancel/upgrade strategy is being kept from the rest of the owners unfairly .Because for me the last part of the strategy is another rebook. I want that reservation too.  Im certainly keeping those reservations from the rest of you, but not unfairly.



I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.


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## outofthewoodwork

Braindead said:


> I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.



I am not sure I agree that Wyndham did not mean for that to occur.  Years ago the reservation system did not automatically put them back into the system.  They did not return until the beginning of the next day.  At that time, I believe Wyndham touted that the change was for a VIP benefit which is a tool they used to sell more.  As a person who was not a VIP and was not running a rental business, I did not like the change then because at least then I knew when to go to check for a cancellation.  I was on the computer early in the morning looking like everyone else.  Then is like now sometimes you win and sometimes you lose when a cancellation is made.


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## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> Show the page in the manual where the benefit cancel and rebook is stated.
> 
> I have the 2013-1014 manual.
> Page 332 states Price discounts within 60 days of checkin
> Receive discounts on NEW reservations only
> 
> I see nothing about canceling a reservation made 8 months prior and rebooking.
> 
> If the canceled reservation comes back the next day or some random day at 7AM, you would still have a better than average shot of rebooking it because you know where to look. That's fair and in the rules.



There is nothing in the book about cancelling and rebooking but  

the cancellation policy is stated clearly. ie I can cancel up to 15 days before check in and get all my points back..  

and the VIP discount policy is stated clearly.. ie a VIP owner gets a discount when making reservations inside the 60 day mark

Now you need to show me where it says I cant do those two things,  one right after the other. 


I agree the end result isnt what wyndham bargained for when they established these two policies,. If they want to change things, by all means do so, but for now, thats the way it is. 

The easy answer is to have the cancelled reservation go to a wait list or if not that just have it return to availability at some random time, the next day


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## Roger830

uscav8r said:


> Cancel-rebook is not explicitly stated, but it does not need to be. The policies for cancellation and for booking are explicitly stated, and there is no explicit BAN of sequential use of either reservation feature. You can tilt at this particular windmill all you want, but you won't convince many that the technique is outside of guidelines. I am not even a megarenter, and I don't see how this technique is "illegal.



I've never stated that it's illegal. I'm just saying that it's not a stated benefit. It's obvious that Wyndham is complicate in allowing the practice. 

My original post here was not against cancel-rebook, but pointing out that Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled credit pool points to return to the credit pool, which imo will exclude some less aggressive members from booking prime weeks that they otherwise would have obtained.

This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> I'm saying I want the high point unit. That's what you are keeping from the rest of us. Clearly Wyndham meant for free upgrades not to be used for cancel rebook upgrade times 3 or four to get there.



you can have that high point unit, and you can keep it from the rest of us.  Just decide at 10 months or better yet 13 months ahead of your desired check in day. 


Im trying to break it to you softly "You cant have want you want when you want it", Im not going to cancel a high value reservation (whether it was made with a discount or not)  for you.. any more than you would cancel your reservation for me... To believe otherwise is really living up to your name.


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## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> you can have that high point unit, and you can keep it from the rest of us.  Just decide at 10 months or better yet 13 months ahead of your desired check in day.
> 
> 
> Im trying to break it to you softly "You cant have want you want when you want it", Im not going to cancel a high value reservation (whether it was made with a discount or not)  for you.. any more than you would cancel your reservation for me... To believe otherwise is really living up to your name.



I agree with this point.  You're going to take the high point unit, it's only a matter of how many points you'll end up paying for it.


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## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> I've never stated that it's illegal. I'm just saying that it's not a stated benefit. It's obvious that Wyndham is complicate in allowing the practice.
> 
> My original post here was not against cancel-rebook, but pointing out that Wyndham made the situation worse by allowing canceled credit pool points to return to the credit pool, which imo will exclude some less aggressive members from booking prime weeks that they otherwise would have obtained.
> 
> This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.



good idea, Cancel and rebook isnt a part of the subject at hand anyway


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## Braindead

If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.


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## Ty1on

Braindead said:


> If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.



Now you're catching on....

Also, remember that credit pool points are excluded from any ARP.  This means one can use pool points only at the same time every tom, dick, and harry can.  That substantially degrades the benefit you bring up in terms of getting the most highly sought after reservations.


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## Braindead

The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.


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## Sandy VDH

Braindead said:


> If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.



And remember, Wyndham can change the policy at any time.  Do not buy something expecting it to stay, like cancel and rebook.  Because if you buy to get VIP Platinum just for that, at some point they might pull the plug on it. 

I used to have Unlimited Guest Certificates, gone.  It is the one thing I really miss.  But I do like the no more cancelled points categoy, which is a new change, and cancelled points just going back into the the bucket they came out of.  I do like that. 

So on balance I can live with the current changes, but I don't know what next change will do to that balance.


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## Ty1on

Braindead said:


> The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.



There are some things they could do to really put a wrench in things, but I'm not going to give them any ideas.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> If after all of this is done and Wyndham changes nothing. I will seriously consider getting a platinum membership. As maintenance fees increase it becomes more appealing to get the discounts especially if your kids and grandkids want it in the future.



Wyndham is making anti renting changes on a regular basis, most recently the 10 nightly limit rule

I believe that they will continue to do this. But they have been careful to impact renting not regular owners and that includes regular platinum owners. These guys are their favorites I seriously doubt that anything will be done to hurt them

So the question is how do you stop renting without having an impact on how non renting VIPs use their accounts

If they determine that cancel and rebook is a mega renter trick and not used by the regular guy VIPs then look for some serious changes. And that's the bet I'm making.


----------



## CO skier

Roger830 said:


> This has been a spirited debate, but I'm ready to move on to another topic. Nothing will be accomplished by beating a dead horse.


Five days into this, I do not know that we are any closer to knowing why so many owners were caught in the round-up, or when they may regain account access.

In the meantime, at least a few reasonable people are starting to understand how a few thousand Platinum owners manipulating the system to bring billions of points into reservations that would not be there without Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade, unfairly increases competition for reservations at 10 months.

That is something worth the time spent, even if Wyndham chooses to do nothing about it as a result of the current investigation.


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## CO skier

Braindead said:


> The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year.


Eliminating VIP discounts as a good, but failed idea would end all flavors of cancel-rebook.  (I would not put any money on this transpiring).

Owner-to-owner transfer of credits was a good, but failed idea that is with us no more, so there is precedent and offers something to think about.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Five days into this, I do not know that we are any closer to knowing why so many owners were caught in the round-up, or when they may regain account access.
> 
> In the meantime, at least a few reasonable people are starting to understand how a few thousand Platinum owners manipulating the system to bring billions of points into reservations that would not be there without Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade, unfairly increases competition for reservations at 10 months.
> 
> That is something worth the time spent, even if Wyndham chooses to do nothing about it as a result of the current investigation.



We know exactly why the suspensions are happening. At least those of us that have talked with their lawyers know

And it has nothing to do with cancel and re book and nothing to do with renting

It more of a mega owner thing than mega renter and not even mega. Some pretty small accounts are involved

Although my idea of small may be different than yours


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## raygo123

Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot.  I like it and hope it stays.  
If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second.  Has nothing to do with discounts.  It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months.  The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot.  I like it and hope it stays.
> If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second.  Has nothing to do with discounts.  It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months.  The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Not even the names  will change. Discount or not I'm still going to be making my rervations at 13 or 10 months 

There are only a finite number of high value reservations and a whole lot of owners. My point is that there will be a large  number of points chasing a  small number of reservations with or with out the discounts. In fact there may me more points chasing the high value reservations because without the discounts I'm gonna need more


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## vacationhopeful

raygo123 said:


> Reasonable? I wonder how reasonable one would be if the shoe is on the other foot.  I like it and hope it stays.
> If you are not willing to be ready to book at exactly 10 months to the minute, the good will be gone Inca NY second.  Has nothing to do with discounts.  It is a totally new ballgame as deeds converted to points, and non access points hit at 10 months.  The only thing that will change are the people's name on the reservation.



I won't feel sorry for you when IF YOUR WORLD VISION is the outcome of Wyndham' actions. The resorts/HOAs will have to foreclose on deeds with the HOAs RAISING MFs to cover those COSTS for legal and nonpayments. Fewer upgrading or improvements will be done to resorts ...or take way longer. Staff and services will be cut back ... as FEWER dollars are following into the HOAs. Costs for lawyers and court fees will all be part of the HOAs costs....NOT Wyndham's bill.

Sure .... you may be able to BOOK Prime time at your resort but the resort will be laying off staff and closing down buildings/pools due to lack of operating funds in the LOW seasons. And as for NEW sofas or beds ... or planting seasonal flowers ... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. 25% fewer owners .... 40%+ fewer staff ... 75% fewer VARIABLE costs are like staff, repairs, and improvements. No new painting projects, no front desk after 8PM of before 7AM, no activities staff, no midweek clean & tidy, no new furniture, no new mattresses, fees for internet service, fewer TVs and cable channels.

And YOUR MFs will climb way faster than you can image ... still got to pay 100% the property taxes, the water & sewer bills, the insurance bills, electric bill, mow the grass, etc. And services will drop quickly.

And the worst the resorts look and feel ... less people will buy into your timeshare place. But those older owners will continue to die or become disable to travel, or the raising costs will force them to turn back their deeds.

Resorts will have to file bankruptcy .... after all Wyndham is just an independent management company running a reservation system & computer .. US (as in YOU and me) are the owners.


----------



## Jan M.

*Cancel and rebook*

First of all when a VIP owner books, cancels and rebooks, only the amount of points actually used is returned to their account. Points don't somehow magically multiply themselves when they go back into your account. Yes VIP owners are eligible for discounts and upgrades and they paid for these benefits. But you still only have what you own to work with unless you rent or buy more points.

I keep seeing posts from an individual or individuals who are crying about the VIP owner's ability to cancel and rebook. First of all let me say that every single Platinum Presidential Reserve point we own was purchased directly through Wyndham and we paid dearly for those VIP benefits. To those of you who seemingly advocate striping these benefits from those of us who paid for them, why are you advocating what amounts to THEFT of something we paid for? If you did not spend the money to receive those same benefits or choose not to use the benefits you paid for, STOP POSTING YOUR BIGOTED, SELF SERVING RANTS! 

And while I am on my high horse, to those of you are complaining about mega-renters hogging all the good inventory, if you would SHUT YOUR MOUTHS AND OPEN YOUR EYES you would see that Wyndham is manipulating the inventory. We should all be extremely concerned about this but certain people continually posting about mega renters and the cancel/rebook privilege deflects the attention away from this very real and troubling issue. Makes me wonder if they aren't Wyndham spies trying confuse and obstruct while something HUGE is happening right under our noses!


----------



## bobbyoc23

Jan M. said:


> I keep seeing posts from an individual or individuals who are crying about the VIP owner's ability to cancel and rebook. First of all let me say that every single Platinum Presidential Reserve point we own was purchased directly through Wyndham and we paid dearly for those VIP benefits. To those of you who seemingly advocate striping these benefits from those of us who paid for them, why are you advocating what amounts to THEFT of something we paid for? If you did not spend the money to receive those same benefits or choose not to use the benefits you paid for, STOP POSTING YOUR BIGOTED, SELF SERVING RANTS!



I don't think people want VIP benefits removed from the system, I think they are saying that the "cancel-rebook" method was an unintended outcome of the different VIP benefits, and was not the original intent/spirit of the benefits. Someone said something to the effect that the benefits are so VIPs can make last minute reservations cheaply. Cancelling and rebooking that reservation cheaply was not the original intent.

At least that's how I read the argument. And it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.


----------



## CO skier

Then there are the unreasonable people who post in all caps and exclamation points.

When a owner uses Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade to book a 3 bedroom Presidential unit for 90,000 points 385,000 points are returned to the account and only 90,000 points are deducted from the account.   The owner now has 295,000 more points in reservations-plus-points than they did before the cancel-rebook-upgrade.

But that 3 bedroom Presidential unit still must come off the books for the full 385,000 points.

Where do other 295,000 points come from?

This is how someone with only 2 million points can control 6.72 million points or more worth of reservations.


----------



## raygo123

vacationhopeful said:


> I won't feel sorry for you when IF YOUR WORLD VISION is the outcome of Wyndham' actions. The resorts/HOAs will have to foreclose on deeds with the HOAs RAISING MFs to cover those COSTS for legal and nonpayments. Fewer upgrading or improvements will be done to resorts ...or take way longer. Staff and services will be cut back ... as FEWER dollars are following into the HOAs. Costs for lawyers and court fees will all be part of the HOAs costs....NOT Wyndham's bill.
> 
> Sure .... you may be able to BOOK Prime time at your resort but the resort will be laying off staff and closing down buildings/pools due to lack of operating funds in the LOW seasons. And as for NEW sofas or beds ... or planting seasonal flowers ... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. 25% fewer owners .... 40%+ fewer staff ... 75% fewer VARIABLE costs are like staff, repairs, and improvements. No new painting projects, no front desk after 8PM of before 7AM, no activities staff, no midweek clean & tidy, no new furniture, no new mattresses, fees for internet service, fewer TVs and cable channels.
> 
> And YOUR MFs will climb way faster than you can image ... still got to pay 100% the property taxes, the water & sewer bills, the insurance bills, electric bill, mow the grass, etc. And services will drop quickly.
> 
> And the worst the resorts look and feel ... less people will buy into your timeshare place. But those older owners will continue to die or become disable to travel, or the raising costs will force them to turn back their deeds.
> 
> Resorts will have to file bankruptcy .... after all Wyndham is just an independent management company running a reservation system & computer .. US (as in YOU and me) are the owners.


Umm, so you want to see it go?  Or stay the same?
Which makes that happen?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## CO skier

bobbyoc23 said:


> it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.


I thought I was done at about post 152, but then it continued.

I thought I was done at post 226.

Now it seems the topic is receiving more interest than the OP.  Maybe it needs its own thread if people want to work it over some more.


----------



## Bigrob

bobbyoc23 said:


> I don't think people want VIP benefits removed from the system, I think they are saying that the "cancel-rebook" method was an unintended outcome of the different VIP benefits, and was not the original intent/spirit of the benefits. Someone said something to the effect that the benefits are so VIPs can make last minute reservations cheaply. Cancelling and rebooking that reservation cheaply was not the original intent.
> 
> At least that's how I read the argument. And it seems to have strayed from the original theme of this thread.



Whether intended or not, it has certainly been a major selling theme for Wyndham Sales. I imagine there are many owners just like Jan M. who are following an approach described to them by their helpful sales staff to "maximize the value of their VIP ownership." And were it not for that benefit, "intended" or not, they would not have made the purchase they made.

Closing the loophole that has been included as a part of the sales process for years will have a cost to Wyndham. Owners like Jan M. are not going to be candidates for upsell, and current owners comprise a significant percentage of Wyndham Sales volume. Think about it... if you are a current silver owner, and you're no longer able to get discounted or upgraded reservations, what motivation do you have to reach for gold or platinum?


----------



## bnoble

I'm not worried about Wyndham Sales losing the ability to upsell someone.  Even if this specific mechanism goes away, the longer discount window and deeper discount %-age will still be flogged as a reason to buy.  The fact that the discounted inventory could truly be leftovers (vs. what happens now) will conveniently be unmentioned. Remember: timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought.


----------



## Bigrob

bnoble said:


> I'm not worried about Wyndham Sales losing the ability to upsell someone.  Even if this specific mechanism goes away, the longer discount window and deeper discount %-age will still be flogged as a reason to buy.  The fact that the discounted inventory could truly be leftovers (vs. what happens now) will conveniently be unmentioned. Remember: timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought.



I'm not worried about it either. But I'm pretty sure some folks at Wyndham are, otherwise the changes being discussed would have been implemented already. It probably wouldn't impact sales to new owners much. But it would impact sales to existing owners who are temporary silver, silver, and gold, as they will see firsthand the erosion of the benefit being touted.


----------



## Braindead

Braindead said:


> The only way Wyndham can stop what is going on in regards to cancel rebook upgrade is to give VIP a smaller discount and allocate a number of upgrade levels per year. All to be done at original booking. Anything short of doing it all at ounce will be worked around as Bigrob pointed out. You can't stop people with access to more than one account from going around the system.



I never said to take away VIP discount and upgrades!! I tried to make it simple for you and do it all at one time. Just a smaller discount maybe 25-30 percent on all reservations and you don't have to worry about losing your vacation later


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## Braindead

My idea is to get you the unit you want the first time. One unit is spoken for and the rest are left for everyone else.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> Whether intended or not, it has certainly been a major selling theme for Wyndham Sales. I imagine there are many owners just like Jan M. who are following an approach described to them by their helpful sales staff to "maximize the value of their VIP ownership." And were it not for that benefit, "intended" or not, they would not have made the purchase they made.
> 
> Closing the loophole that has been included as a part of the sales process for years will have a cost to Wyndham. Owners like Jan M. are not going to be candidates for upsell, and current owners comprise a significant percentage of Wyndham Sales volume. Think about it... if you are a current silver owner, and you're no longer able to get discounted or upgraded reservations, what motivation do you have to reach for gold or platinum?


The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more.  They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.

That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.

Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more.  They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.
> 
> That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.
> 
> Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.



Maybe that will be the test case? I would guess the sales organization would look closely at what impact, if any, that had on sales to existing owners within the Worldmark system. 

I'm not as familiar with Worldmark as Wyndham, but I seem to recall that owners had more representation on the Board than they do at Wyndham. If so, it would be more likely that a change could be implemented for the benefit of the majority of owners, even if it adversely impacts sales. 

Like Worldmark, the provision already exists within the Wyndham Trust Agreement for a "wait list". It simply hasn't been executed.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Then there are the unreasonable people who post in all caps and exclamation points.
> 
> When a owner uses Cancel-Rebook-Upgrade to book a 3 bedroom Presidential unit for 90,000 points 385,000 points are returned to the account and only 90,000 points are deducted from the account.   The owner now has 295,000 more points in reservations-plus-points than they did before the cancel-rebook-upgrade.
> 
> But that 3 bedroom Presidential unit still must come off the books for the full 385,000 points.
> 
> Where do other 295,000 points come from?
> 
> This is how someone with only 2 million points can control 6.72 million points or more worth of reservations.


 They don't have 295000 more points  after the cancel and rebook they have 90000 points in a reservation and they have 295000 still available to make another reservation. That still adds up to your starting point of 385000 there is no manufacture of points

I'm tempted to use all caps too but I don't think that will help you see through the fog machine you are running


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> The sales department on the WorldMark side of Wyndham used a loophole to sell additional credits to owners for 10 years or more.  They would explain why the prospect needed more credits to book throwaway days and get a jump ahead of the line for "regular Joes" who were waiting for the 13 month booking window to open.
> 
> That loophole was closed on January 1 this year, and I think that experience led to the "manipulation" part of the Unacceptable Behavior guideline.
> 
> Owners who were sold additional credits based on the throwaway days loophole were understandably upset, but the WorldMark Board of Directors did the right thing for the majority of the membership by closing the loophole.



Yes that loophole was closed. They picked a date in the future to make the change effective. But that's not what they are doing here

here and now in club Wyndham they are not proposing a rule change. they are threatening to go into our accounts, cancel reservations and take  points out


----------



## travelwyndham

Thank you. Well said. Applause!!!!


----------



## chapjim

Braindead said:


> The big problem is the combination cancel rebook upgrade. That's what causes units not to be available to the rest of us. Units are held to be cacelled to upgrade. That's where everythings not equal VIPs cancel wait for it to comeback in a couple of minutes. It's a stroke of luck if someone else grabs it before the VIP that cancelled it grabs it back.



If I didn't do the cancel-rebook-upgrade, it still wouldn't be available to you.

Why should things be equal?  If you spent the same amount of money I did, you would have the same opportunities I have.  Unequal purchases = unequal status.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> They don't have 295000 more points  after the cancel and rebook they have 90000 points in a reservation and they have 295000 still available to make another reservation. That still adds up to your starting point of 385000 there is no manufacture of points
> 
> I'm tempted to use all caps too but I don't think that will help you see through the fog machine you are running



One of my deeds reads, “A 210,000/17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units xxxx to xxxx …”


An owner reserves a 385,000 3 bedroom Presidential.  They cancel-rebook-upgrade with the net effect of still having the 3 bedroom Presidential that cost 90,000 points plus the 295,000 points leftover after the upgrade.

Right?

The owner then reserves a 2 bedroom Presidential for 295,000 points.

Wyndham cannot change my deed to read, “A 210,000/17,448,000 fee simple absolute interest … just because someone booked a 385,000 unit in my complex for 90,000 points. Wyndham must account for all 17,743,000 points.  When the owner stays in the 3 bedroom unit, 385,000 (not 90,000) points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.

When the owner stays in the 2 bedroom, 295,000 points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.

The owner was charged 90,000 points for the 3 bedroom plus 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom equals 385,000 points.

Wyndham deducted 385,000 points for the 3 bedroom and 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom from my complex equals 630,000 points.

630,000 points deducted minus 385,000 points collected from the owner leaves 295,000 points that need to come from somewhere.


I am sorry that I cannot make it any plainer than that.


----------



## bobbyoc23

Thank you, I had this same type of question floating around in my head while reading these posts.  I'll admit that I do not _know_ exactly how the system works (I guess I should do more reading/research), but I assumed that the number of total points in the denominator of your deed encompassed the total number of points needed to book every unit every day of the year at your home resort.  And that's why the total number of points in a resort cannot increase over time (unless they build new units), but adjustments can be made for points required for week day/week end nights, unit sizes, seasons, etc.  So booking two units that should *require* 630,000 points using 385,000 points would seem to break the system.  You now have 295,000 more points to use at that resort for time that seemingly should not exist.

Do I have this wrong?


----------



## travelwyndham

buckor said:


> I've been reading this train of posts since the beginning. And I do have an opinion...please remember it is just that, my opinion.
> 
> When my wife and I went to our presentation we were told about the benefits of VIP. One of those benefits was the ability to book reservations at a discount and possibly get a free upgrade,  assuming there was availability during that window. No one said anything about cancel-rebook. And, the book says nothing about cancel-rebook as an option...for anyone.
> 
> I think the point many here are trying to make is that the VIP experience is SUPPOSED to be available based on available inventory in the system, not inventory created by someone cancelling a reservation to create said inventory. This goes against the very idea of allowing VIP owners access to "extra" inventory as a perk of ownership....becausr let's be honest, that's what you were sold, not cancel-rebook.
> 
> If anyone disagrees with the above please show where in your contract they offered cancel-rebook as an option. It's not there...and has been stated many times in other posts, if it's not in the contract it's not part of the deal.
> 
> The whole point is that VIPs getting the points discounts and upgrades is SUPPOSED to br from inventory not already reserved by all the other owners. While the system allows cancel-rebook no one can say that it is an intended consequence.
> 
> Someone made the point that the way the current system is run that a megarenter "generates " millions of additional points for them to use to rent other, high demand properties under the current system. These extra millions of points "generated" by cancel-rebook creates more competition for rooms...something, again, not intended but has been allowed. If VIPs were able to use their points for discounts and cancel-rebook according to the book, while inventory would not increase, demand would decrease allowing more owners to be happy with their purchases.
> 
> Many an argument has been made that people are unhappy with their Wyndham purchase because they aren't willing to understand the reservation timeline and process. Should they, then, not be told about megarenters in their presentation from Wyndham and told that if you really want a high demand week you better be on the phone at 7am at 13 months? No, people are not told this because the system was designed for VIPs to use the excess inventory, not create excess inventory.
> 
> VIPs are using the system, literally the technology, to their advantage. Kudos. It is technically legal. But then to turn around and tell someone they made a bad purchase because they are frustrated with available inventory knowing that, as a megarenter,  you have booked a significant portion of the available rooms (in combination with other megarenters)  Of a high demand week, is, well,  a questionable practice at the least.
> 
> The whole Wyndham concept is designed around individuals enjoying vacations with their families...not setting up vacation businesses using the Wyndham resorts as the backbone.
> 
> If this is going to change Wyndham must make the change....i doubt megarenters are going To voluntarily leave inventory in place so I can book the vacation my family wants to take.
> 
> Just my $.02.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


Wyndham did make a change. They've made lots of changes. "Megarenters" used to book blocks of rooms, sometimes entire towers. Now they cannot have more than 10 units at a resort for the same timeframe. If someone has enough points to book 10 units at Christmas week, then good for them. However, they can't book more than those 10. Also, the guest confirmations are very expensive. For every reservation, a person has to pay $99-$129 just to add someone. That could be just to add their kids or spouse to their own reservation (when a large family needs 2 or 3 units at a resort, they have to pay so that they don't overlap). Also, it took our family years of scrimping and saving (we even took on a paper route) to get up to a platinum account. We saw the benefits and it made a lot of sense to pay the big bucks to get ourselves an account that would offer double the reservations (with a 50% discount) and more (with free upgrades) for not only us, but for our kids and for their kids and so on. It just made sense. If you can afford it, then go platinum and start enjoying the same pleasures of other VIP owners. If you can't afford it, then make it a priority (like we did, and start saving), and if you feel like its not worth it, then stick to your full price reservations and be happy with what you bought. Unfortunately, that being said, it kind of stinks that even after paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to own our now Presidential Reserve account... we don't really own anything, because Wyndham seems to be free to take it all away at their discretion, with no recourse.


----------



## travelwyndham

Bigrob said:


> I believe it used to work like this in the past. Wyndham has experimented with differing times for the cancellations to come back. And as you may know, some of them never come back for various reasons. Since the VCs see these reservations come back immediately, and they do work with owners to get reservations and upgrades, that has been the backup plan when it becomes riskier to cancel/rebook.
> 
> The problem here is, mega renters know those risks and therefore book MORE units as a result (at least until the Nightly Unit Limit was put into effect). My concern is that if it is made into a riskier proposition, the result will be even more prime inventory tied up to "manage the risk".
> 
> So I don't think this is the answer. However, my guess is that Wyndham is working on other things to address the cancel/rebook "trick". It could even be something that would be viewed as a benefit to many owners, such as implementing a waitlist like Worldmark has, or automating upgrades so you don't have to keep looking for them. Either of these would address and essentially eliminate cancel/rebook (the exception is that huge points managers with hundreds of accounts will still find ways to "work" the system by immediately adding dozens of requests into the waitlist from multiple accounts). The other thing is it would at least reduce, if not eliminate, the "excess" bookings for "risk mitigation" of the cancel/rebook process.
> 
> This would negatively impact a small segment of owners that Wyndham likes - VIP owners that use cancel/rebook for personal use only - while negatively impacting the target group of VIP owners that they don't like that participate in rental activity. But most VIP owners don't use cancel/rebook and would simply notice that there is more inventory to book, and if what they want isn't immediately available they can put themselves on the waitlist and have a fair chance to get their wanted reservation, and they don't have to keep looking for an upgrade. Given these factors, if I were a betting man, that is what I would put money on that Wyndham is working on, since it addresses the "megarenter" problem and improves the ownership experience for "Joe Average" VIP owner simultaneously.


I think the major problem with that is the megarenter with multiple accounts (as you addressed) and the fact that Wyndham is the biggest renter of all. Remember that Wyndham rents out way more units than any megarenter. This will just free up more inventory for them. Doing a cancel-rebook is risky. I don't see why its not fair. There have been tons of posts here about "taking" a reservation that you know was a cancel-rebook. I think its just sad that Wyndham can't just have a clear rule book that even they have to follow. The entire company is so corrupt... We all need to pat each other on the back and support one another, because we are up against the most corrupt company in America.


----------



## CO skier

bobbyoc23 said:


> Thank you, I had this same type of question floating around in my head while reading these posts.  I'll admit that I do not _know_ exactly how the system works (I guess I should do more reading/research), but I assumed that the number of total points in the denominator of your deed encompassed the total number of points needed to book every unit every day of the year at your home resort.  And that's why the total number of points in a resort cannot increase over time (unless they build new units), but adjustments can be made for points required for week day/week end nights, unit sizes, seasons, etc.  So booking two units that should *require* 630,000 points using 385,000 points would seem to break the system.  You now have 295,000 more points to use at that resort for time that seemingly should not exist.
> 
> Do I have this wrong?



"Break" might be too strong of a word, but you have got it, and that gives me hope that the example tying the accounting to deeded rights, instead of the loosey-goosey accounts where someone can reserve 6.72 million points of reservations for only 2 million points will help others finally understand that Wyndham must deduct 6.72 million points from the system for those reservations, while only collecting 2 million points from the owner.

That 4.72 million points differential MUST come from somewhere to balance the accounting.


----------



## comicbookman

CO skier said:


> One of my deeds reads, “A 210,000/17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units xxxx to xxxx …”
> 
> 
> An owner reserves a 385,000 3 bedroom Presidential.  They cancel-rebook-upgrade with the net effect of still having the 3 bedroom Presidential that cost 90,000 points plus the 295,000 points leftover after the upgrade.
> 
> Right?
> 
> The owner then reserves a 2 bedroom Presidential for 295,000 points.
> 
> Wyndham cannot change my deed to read, “A 210,000/17,448,000 fee simple absolute interest … just because someone booked a 385,000 unit in my complex for 90,000 points. Wyndham must account for all 17,743,000 points.  When the owner stays in the 3 bedroom unit, 385,000 (not 90,000) points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.
> 
> When the owner stays in the 2 bedroom, 295,000 points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.
> 
> The owner was charged 90,000 points for the 3 bedroom plus 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom equals 385,000 points.
> 
> Wyndham deducted 385,000 points for the 3 bedroom and 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom from my complex equals 630,000 points.
> 
> 630,000 points deducted minus 385,000 points collected from the owner leaves 295,000 points that need to come from somewhere.
> 
> 
> I am sorry that I cannot make it any plainer than that.



Your math is sound, but your point is wrong.  The extra points would come from the trust out of the points Wyndham owns, or from points that go unused.  Wyndham is by far the biggest owner. those points would otherwise go to a reservation used for extra holidays rental program.  Same result.  Our platinum benefits come from Wyndham, not the individual resorts.  Wyndham has to cover the costs of any discounts we get.  The total number of points used in the system can only change if units are added or subtracted from the system.  I agree, it is time to stop whining about not having benefits that others paid for and you did not.  It is no more unfair that the person who paid GM for a Chevy did does not get the same car that the person who paid for a Cadillac got.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> One of my deeds reads, “A 210,000/17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units xxxx to xxxx …”
> 
> 
> An owner reserves a 385,000 3 bedroom Presidential.  They cancel-rebook-upgrade with the net effect of still having the 3 bedroom Presidential that cost 90,000 points plus the 295,000 points leftover after the upgrade.
> 
> Right?
> 
> The owner then reserves a 2 bedroom Presidential for 295,000 points.
> 
> Wyndham cannot change my deed to read, “A 210,000/17,448,000 fee simple absolute interest … just because someone booked a 385,000 unit in my complex for 90,000 points. Wyndham must account for all 17,743,000 points.  When the owner stays in the 3 bedroom unit, 385,000 (not 90,000) points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.
> 
> When the owner stays in the 2 bedroom, 295,000 points must be deducted from Wyndham’s accounting for my complex.
> 
> The owner was charged 90,000 points for the 3 bedroom plus 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom equals 385,000 points.
> 
> Wyndham deducted 385,000 points for the 3 bedroom and 295,000 points for the 2 bedroom from my complex equals 630,000 points.
> 
> 630,000 points deducted minus 385,000 points collected from the owner leaves 295,000 points that need to come from somewhere.
> 
> 
> I am sorry that I cannot make it any plainer than that.



No thats not right, thats not the way it works,  you are starting from a place of confusion

That deed says  1) you have a 210000/17,448,000 fee simple interest in the property   and 2) you have been allocated 210000 points symbolic of that ownership to use in the Wyndham system

There are two separate accounts that have to be kept  1) the fractional ownership that you own is important because  when they have sold 17,448,000 points they have to stop selling.   because 17,448,000/17,448,000 =1 and thats the whole joint,  they cant sell any more, That fraction is what you own.   

The symbolic points  are our currency to make reservations and it requires an altogether different accounting.    There is no mythical pool at your resort from which they deduct points each time a reservation is made. Its more like money on deposit at a bank.  Your points are currency just like  money in the bank> and just like the money in at the bank it has been decoupled from its source,   

When I spend that money it doesnt matter to the folks I spend it with where it came from. Some came from my rentals, some came from a rebate on an item I bought  last year, some came from my gambling winnings and some from my social security check. It makes no difference to the check out gal at Publix. she gives me the total I owe and I pay it. That some of the items in my cart are two for one specials requires no special accounting and makes no difference at my bank. I dont have to let them know that I got a 50% discount on some items. That unspent money stays in the bank (not at Publix) waiting to cover the next purchase I make. . just like my unused wyndham points are waiting for my next reservation


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> "Break" might be too strong of a word, but you have got it, and that gives me hope that the example tying the accounting to deeded rights, instead of the loosey-goosey accounts where someone can reserve 6.72 million points of reservations for only 2 million points will help others finally understand that Wyndham must deduct 6.72 million points from the system for those reservations, while only collecting 2 million points from the owner.
> 
> That 4.72 million points differential MUST come from somewhere to balance the accounting.



Those arent deeded rights. thats a fractional ownership, there is no right and no guarantee until you deposit your ownership to the fairshare trust... and in return get points. what you have the right to is what those points can buy, and the fact is a VIP owner can buy more with their points than you can. sorry

or as I said in a previous post,  the points have been decoupled from the resorts.


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> "Break" might be too strong of a word, but you have got it, and that gives me hope that the example tying the accounting to deeded rights, instead of the loosey-goosey accounts where someone can reserve 6.72 million points of reservations for only 2 million points will help others finally understand that Wyndham must deduct 6.72 million points from the system for those reservations, while only collecting 2 million points from the owner.
> 
> That 4.72 million points differential MUST come from somewhere to balance the accounting.



Wyndham owns points, and those are used to cover the discounts.


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> Wyndham owns points, and those are used to cover the discounts.



That's not true either at least not in a tit for tat sense

There are a lot of Wyndham owned points or more importantly unsold condos  and they provide additional supply to cover the demand. The reservation you want may not be available but something will be


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> Wyndham owns points, and those are used to cover the discounts.



That's true but not in a tit for tat sense 

There are a lot of Wyndham owned points or more importantly unsold condos  and they provide additional supply to cover the demand. The reservation you want may not be available but something will be


----------



## Jan M.

*To Clarify*

My apologies because I did ignore some valid concerns. I'm not a player in the book, double book, cancel, rebook game. I do my bookings and upgrades within the 60 day window. When I've booked further out it never worked out with the travel plans so I don't even bother anymore. Yes I often find myself on the computer at 7AM and fortunately have the time that I can sit at the computer during the day hoping to snag reservations when inventory opens up. Also lucky that my husband sets his own work schedule so we don't have to plan far in advance and that we aren't a large family that really needs a three or four bedroom. 

Again my apologies for being bitchy towards certain individuals but I really think they are missing a whole bigger picture. From watching the inventory, ebay listings, etc. for the last several years I suspect more so than the mega renters and some platinum owners who maximize the system by the booking the smallest and larger units, cancel, rebook and upgrade, it is the businesses that are managing peoples points, businesses doing resales (Wyndham included) needing to recover the maintenance fees they are carrying and even Wyndham Extra Holidays too that making it so much harder for the majority of owners to find reservations. An individual owner can book x number of reservations at a resort. The businesses can book that many reservations for each owner they represent or contract they are carrying! They really hurt the mega renters because they are frequently selling stays in the one and two bedroom units at or even below cost. Seriously, take a look on Ebay for Grand Desert. You can buy a week in a one bedroom for as low as $375 with dates clear through next Spring. A full week is 112,000-133,000 points for the one bedroom. At that price a mega renter, or anyone who rents for that matter, wouldn't break even when you add the cost of the maintenance fees on the number of points needed for the reservation, the guest reservation fee, the eBay fees and the Paypal or credit card fees. No renter, mega or otherwise, deliberately sells below cost unless they are stuck with a reservation within the 15 day cancellation window.

The last time our granddaughter was here we went to Orlando two different times and stayed at Cypress Palms and Star Island. I wasn't finding anything at Bonnet Creek the first week or so that I started looking so I just booked the other two resorts. But over the next month or so we kept noticing that we could buy a stay at Bonnet Creek on Travelocity, Expedia, and there were deals on sites like Groupon, Living Social, Travelzoo. Why is this happening that anyone can buy a stay but we the owners couldn't even find a few nights in a one or two bedroom unit?

I've been watching for over a year now and the number of resorts that there is no available inventory at is increasing. If you start watching you will see that there may be a period of the next upcoming several months that there will be not even a single night in any size unit available. And it isn't just resorts where there is a big demand for or high seasonal traffic. This seems to be occurring at more and more resorts. It would seem from reading other people's posts that some have figured out when Wyndham doles out the inventory and are poised to get first pick of it. This is just the general inventory I won't go into what I've noticed about the presidential reserve inventory as that isn't of interest to most of you. The questions are why and how is Wyndham manipulating the inventory, to what purpose, who benefits and who is hurt? 

In addition to watching the inventory, ebay and other things, I've talked to people and kept my ears open at the last several owner's meetings and it isn't too hard to start connecting the dots. Wyndham needs to sell and they need people who have the money to buy. Gold and Platinum owners are the target market. Making the smaller units unavailable for the discounts and upgrades and also scaring the gold and platinum owners into booking the larger units further out and not trying for the discounts or upgrades on the risk of losing the reservation will require them to need and purchase more points. Make the smaller point owners think the lack of availability is all because of the mega renters and platinum owners and that Wyndham needs to do something about them. Talk to each other folks, everyone is having a harder time finding reservations. 

I am honestly asking this next question because I don't know. When people default on their ownership, the ownership of those points reverts back to Wyndham, correct? Unless the individual resorts are foreclosing and reselling those points on their own which I have never heard of, that means Wyndham is responsible for the maintenance fees on those points. Because ownership is actual deeded property the resorts can put liens on them for unpaid maintenance fees which transfer to the new owner, now Wyndham. For those of us who have learned so much from following TUG, we know how important it is to make sure there is a clean title when purchasing on the resale market. It would appear that any resort is as dependent on Wyndham paying the maintenance fees on their points as it is on the rest of the owners paying their maintenance fees. And upon Wyndham releasing the funds collected from us to the resorts.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> Wyndham owns points, and those are used to cover the discounts.



Aahhh, now we are getting somewhere.  I think this is exactly what happens, although I am not privy to Wyndham’s accounting.  How else could the deficits be accounted for?

That is why I stepped through the process, so even someone reading this thread, but unfamiliar with Wyndham could understand that Wyndham is likely subsidizing the VIP discounts.  It does not create points out of thin air, but those points do have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is likely Wyndham’s inventory of unsold points.  Nothing wrong with that, but I think Wyndham intended these subisdies for broken, distressed inventory available at 60 days.  (Why else the 60-day limit on the 50% discount?)

But sly dogs in the sales department quickly discovered how this benefit could be manipulated to turn 13-month or 10-month reservations into 60-day, 50% discount reservations, and they could sell a lot of VIP upgrades using this loophole.


.........................

So the situation we have now is that Wyndham subsidizes 13-month and 10-month reservations at 50% discount; it just takes a system manipulation (cancel-rebook or cancel-rebook-upgrade) near the 60-day mark to effect the subsidy.  And I think anyone reading this thread now understands how this unfairly impacts other owners trying to make their reservations.  Is this what Wyndham intended for the 50% discount, or did Wyndham intend the benefit for truly distressed inventory at 60-days?  I think reasonable people will reach the correct interpretation.  

If Wyndham intended the 50% discount to apply to 13-month or 10-month reservations, why not just give these discounts to VIPs at 13 or 10 months?


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## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> I am honestly asking this next question because I don't know. When people default on their ownership, the ownership of those points reverts back to Wyndham, correct? Unless the individual resorts are foreclosing and reselling those points on their own which I have never heard of, that means Wyndham is responsible for the maintenance fees on those points. Because ownership is actual deeded property the resorts can put liens on them for unpaid maintenance fees which transfer to the new owner, now Wyndham. For those of us who have learned so much from following TUG, we know how important it is to make sure there is a clean title when purchasing on the resale market. It would appear that any resort is as dependent on Wyndham paying the maintenance fees on their points as it is on the rest of the owners paying their maintenance fees. And upon Wyndham releasing the funds collected from us to the resorts.



I can only speak for my home resort of Pagosa Springs.  There are 8 HOAs there and a few years ago, they all converted to Wyndham taking all foreclosures, and Wyndham pays any maintenance fees that are in arrears.  This has worked great for the HOAs and us owners, because there is no longer any bad debt to cover.

Wyndham probably absorbs the foreclosures or Ovation turn-ins into Club Wyndham Access.  I have no problem with this, because I still have my resort-specific ARP, and the CWA owners can sort out their ARP for themselves -- two different buckets of inventory.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Aahhh, now we are getting somewhere.  I think this is exactly what happens, although I am not privy to Wyndham’s accounting.  How else could the deficits be accounted for?
> 
> That is why I stepped through the process, so even someone reading this thread, but unfamiliar with Wyndham could understand that Wyndham is likely subsidizing the VIP discounts.  It does not create points out of thin air, but those points do have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is likely Wyndham’s inventory of unsold points.  Nothing wrong with that, but I think Wyndham intended these subisdies for broken, distressed inventory available at 60 days.  (Why else the 60-day limit on the 50% discount?)
> 
> But sly dogs in the sales department quickly discovered how this benefit could be manipulated to turn 13-month or 10-month reservations into 60-day, 50% discount reservations, and they could sell a lot of VIP upgrades using this loophole.
> 
> 
> .........................
> 
> So the situation we have now is that Wyndham subsidizes 13-month and 10-month reservations at 50% discount; it just takes a system manipulation (cancel-rebook or cancel-rebook-upgrade) near the 60-day mark to effect the subsidy.  And I think anyone reading this thread now understands how this unfairly impacts other owners trying to make their reservations.  Is this what Wyndham intended for the 50% discount, or did Wyndham intend the benefit for truly distressed inventory at 60-days?  I think reasonable people will reach the correct interpretation.
> 
> If Wyndham intended the 50% discount to apply to 13-month or 10-month reservations, why not just give these discounts to VIPs at 13 or 10 months?



Of course Wyndham didn't intend this. And they will fix it, probably right after they deal with all the accounts they just suspended


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## raygo123

I hope they leave a little meat on the bone.  Maybe give all levels of VIP so many, opportunities to visit the discount window.  There's enough breakage it could still get them where they need to be.  When you come down to it,  it is all about Wyndham.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

There's been post about Wyndham taking back stripped contracts. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone done this ? I find it hard to believe that Wyndham would be that stupid to let you buy resale credit pool points for three years and hand it over thru Ovation. It would be cheaper for them to buy just about all contracts sold on eBay!!!


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## Braindead

The way Ovation has worked if you bought developer points they would give you three years worth of points but no way would they give you even one year of points for resale


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Of course Wyndham didn't intend this. And they will fix it, probably right after they deal with all the accounts they just suspended


I doubt it, but the current penalty (whether intentional or coincidental) for high sticking in the system is more than I thought I would ever see.  It is unprecedented in the timeshare world.


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## Sandy VDH

Braindead said:


> There's been post about Wyndham taking back stripped contracts. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone done this ? I find it hard to believe that Wyndham would be that stupid to let you buy resale credit pool points for three years and hand it over thru Ovation. It would be cheaper for them to buy just about all contracts sold on eBay!!!



Wyndham taking back stripped contracts: I have not done this but I have confirmation from sources that this has indeed happened.


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## Don40

One big key we are missing is Wyndham can take all inventory at the 60 day mark free of charge.  This is distressed inventory in their eyes.  It cost them nothing for any room they want at 60 days, so whatever a mega renter gets for 50% off Wyndham gets for free.  
Wyndham rental business works with free inventory, paid for by owners at the resorts who paid their maintenance fees.  This is why their computer system is so loosely goosey all this free inventory make accounting difficult.  
I always say find a poorly designed computer system at a large corporation, and there is massive fraud that follows.  Management likes to have the ability to manipulate the numbers so that the share prices increase, ever wonder how companies best earnings estimate by a penny, consistently that is no accident.

This discussion proves that not even Wyndham know how many points are in and around their system, what a shame from a Fortune 500 company.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Sandy VDH

There are many issues covered in this thread, some pertaining to the locked accounts.  But many others speculating and complaining about VIP Benefits.  There are separate discussions. 

There may be more than one source for frozen accounts, stripped contracts being one of them.  But there might be more.  

So here is my lowly opinion on Renters, Cancel and Rebook.  You may not agree, but I will throw it out there.....


I am myself not a mega renter, but I am a VIP Platinum owner. 95% of my bookings are likely done in the 60 day VIP upgrade window.  Most are family and extended friends, if I rent.  So I rarely play the cancel and rebook game, but that is not to say I have not done it when I have lots of points available and nothing to lose trying. I am willing to take the risk of possibly losing the reservation.  I have also helped others do it, to deal with the 10 unit restriction that is now in place, and burn through some of my potentially left over free GCs.

As far as any of the discussions pertaining to activities that legitimate VIP  owners are conducting, as per current Wyndham rules, then that is COMPLETELY within their rights.  

I'm sorry if some owners are NOT able to get every reservation you want at every location you want, whenever you want, and for whatever points.  Every owner has the same ability to book at ARP (at their owned resort) or at the 10 month mark.  EVERY OWNER, provided they have the points to cover the play.

What happens after that is just dependent on how you play the game.  Some people have more currency to play with, and are willing to take risks, some do not.  

I'm of the opinion if a legitimate owners plays by the rules, then all is fair.  Don't cry foul if someone just plays better than you do.  This is NOT "fair share" of available units, as someone posted.  It is first come and play with the risk and play better, if you can.   

The only cry foul that is legitimate is if someone someone books units prior to the window opening.  (How this would happen would have to be some error on Wyndham's part by a manual process.  ARP and RARP are not bookable online, so if an error by a VC is done that might account for it.   Standard reservation Window and Express windows are available online, and these work just fine.)

So for those that are unhappy, just learn to play the game better or get a better hand.  Or wait for new rules.


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## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> "Break" might be too strong of a word, but you have got it, and that gives me hope that the example tying the accounting to deeded rights, instead of the loosey-goosey accounts where someone can reserve 6.72 million points of reservations for only 2 million points will help others finally understand that Wyndham must deduct 6.72 million points from the system for those reservations, while only collecting 2 million points from the owner.
> 
> That 4.72 million points differential MUST come from somewhere to balance the accounting.



As other poster's have touched on, the answer is that comes from Wyndham's right at 60 days to secure reservations from available inventory. They are just assigning that right to VIP owners on a transactional basis.  They technically could grant VIP owners the right to reserve inventory free of charge if they wanted to.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> There's been post about Wyndham taking back stripped contracts. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone done this ? I find it hard to believe that Wyndham would be that stupid to let you buy resale credit pool points for three years and hand it over thru Ovation. It would be cheaper for them to buy just about all contracts sold on eBay!!!





ovation will take your contracts (no more maintenance fees) and leave you with points 3x your contract size if you originally bought the contract from them

Look at it this way:    take back a stripped contract, hold it for 3 years as the points accrue paying $18000 in maintenance fees, . Wyndham can sell a million points for $150,000... How dumb is that

By the way Wyndhams target for cost of goods sold is 16%.. A deal like I described meets that goal


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## OutSkiing

CO skier said:


> Aahhh, now we are getting somewhere.  I think this is exactly what happens, although I am not privy to Wyndham’s accounting.  How else could the deficits be accounted for?
> 
> That is why I stepped through the process, so even someone reading this thread, but unfamiliar with Wyndham could understand that Wyndham is likely subsidizing the VIP discounts.  It does not create points out of thin air, but those points do have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is likely Wyndham’s inventory of unsold points.



It is often good to imagine an extreme scenario when trying to understand how things work. Here is my take on what Ron, who has earned his phd in Wyndham-ology has been telling us only with a slightly different conclusion.

Imagine the Wyndham system only has two resorts A and B. Each has 100 units which amounts to 5200 weeks available at each or 10400 total weeks. Both are 100% sold so the HOAs are each getting all their maintenance fees. 

Now imagine nobody reserves any weeks at resort A because a nuclear waste dump opened next door. The HOA still has their budget covered for the year from fully sold maintenance fees but 100% vacancy.  

And imagine that ALL units at resort B are taken by VIP members doing cancel/rebook to net themselves an average 50% discount. The VIP owners now have their units and still have another 5200 weeks in their accounts with which to make more reservations.  Does Wyndham have to transfer dollars from one resort to the other?  No, both HOA budgets were covered through maintenance fees.  The points were just a symbolic currency used to determine who gets how many weeks.  

What has happened though is that instead of there being 10400 weeks of available demand there are now 15600 weeks of available demand and only 10400 weeks of supply. The VIP discounts cause more demand for units than there is supply.  I think this was intended to cover the natural vacancy that would occur from those that don't use their points and to give avid / active users  and of course those that pay for VIP a leg up.  

But if the ratio of VIP upgrades / discounts to regular points usage gets too high then the excess demand overloads the system as Jan M has so aptly pointed out.  The more mega-renting that occurs by owners who have accounts with  VIP benefits and loads of resale points, the more points can contribute to demand to outweighing supply. I don't think it was intended to go this far.

The most fair solution would be for the system to limit the VIP benefits to only contracts that qualify for VIP.

Bob


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## Roger830

OutSkiing said:


> What has happened though is that instead of there being 10400 weeks of available demand there are now 15600 weeks of available demand and only 10400 weeks of supply. The VIP discounts cause more demand for units than there is supply.  I think this was intended to cover the natural vacancy that would occur from those that don't use their points and to give avid / active users  and of course those that pay for VIP a leg up.  But if the ratio of VIP upgrades / discounts to regular points usage gets too large then the excess demand overloads the system as Jan M has so aptly pointed out.  The more mega-renting that occurs the more this happens.
> 
> Bob



This is another example of how points are created, I used canceled credit pool points.

Let's take your example one step further with no credit pool as I was using.

Let's say that there is only one resort with 25% vip members. Those aggressive members early in the booking year book 25% of the units, all mid-year summer weeks. Other members want summer so let the Jan Feb March weeks go unbooked. 60 days before checkin the vips cancel and rebook thus generating more points. In the fall and winter, 75% of the owners that didn't get summer weeks plus 12 1/2% representing vip canceled points, total 87 1/2%, are chasing 25% of the years inventory.

If that 25% of inventory is booked, then the 62 1/2% of the points left over expire at year end. No balancing by Wyndham is required. Unused points expire.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

OutSkiing said:


> It is often good to imagine an extreme scenario when trying to understand how things work. Here is my take on what Ron, who has earned his phd in Wyndham-ology has been telling us only with a slightly different conclusion.
> 
> Imagine the Wyndham system only has two resorts A and B. Each has 100 units which amounts to 5200 weeks available at each or 10400 total weeks. Both are 100% sold so the HOAs are each getting all their maintenance fees.
> 
> Now imagine nobody reserves any weeks at resort A because a nuclear waste dump opened next door. The HOA still has their budget covered for the year from fully sold maintenance fees but 100% vacancy.
> 
> And imagine that ALL units at resort B are taken by VIP members doing cancel/rebook to net themselves an average 50% discount. The VIP owners now have their units and still have another 5200 weeks in their accounts
> 
> 
> 
> But if the ratio of VIP upgrades / discounts to regular points usage gets too high then the excess demand overloads the system as Jan M has so aptly pointed out.  The more mega-renting that occurs by owners who have accounts with  VIP benefits and loads of resale points, the more points can contribute to demand to outweighing supply. I don't think it was intended to go this far.
> 
> The most fair solution would be for the system to limit the VIP benefits to only contracts that qualify for VIP.
> 
> Bob



****************

THEY COULD - build more resorts or expand existing locations to create more space / weeks .

- But that solution would involve SPENDING  THEIR MONEY !!!

It is far easier for the bean counters to run a Spanish Inquisition - and then tell all of you with VIP etc that :
 they are taking away points due to " irregularities" most likely created by their computer system .

.


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## raygo123

raygo123 said:


> Keep the cancel and rebook just make it like RCI, you cannot use credit pool points as you cannot deposit credit pool points in RCI
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk





OutSkiing said:


> It is often good to imagine an extreme scenario when trying to understand how things work. Here is my take on what Ron, who has earned his phd in Wyndham-ology has been telling us only with a slightly different conclusion.
> 
> Imagine the Wyndham system only has two resorts A and B. Each has 100 units which amounts to 5200 weeks available at each or 10400 total weeks. Both are 100% sold so the HOAs are each getting all their maintenance fees.
> 
> Now imagine nobody reserves any weeks at resort A because a nuclear waste dump opened next door. The HOA still has their budget covered for the year from fully sold maintenance fees but 100% vacancy.
> 
> And imagine that ALL units at resort B are taken by VIP members doing cancel/rebook to net themselves an average 50% discount. The VIP owners now have their units and still have another 5200 weeks in their accounts with which to make more reservations.  Does Wyndham have to transfer dollars from one resort to the other?  No, both HOA budgets were covered through maintenance fees.  The points were just a symbolic currency used to determine who gets how many weeks.
> 
> What has happened though is that instead of there being 10400 weeks of available demand there are now 15600 weeks of available demand and only 10400 weeks of supply. The VIP discounts cause more demand for units than there is supply.  I think this was intended to cover the natural vacancy that would occur from those that don't use their points and to give avid / active users  and of course those that pay for VIP a leg up.
> 
> But if the ratio of VIP upgrades / discounts to regular points usage gets too high then the excess demand overloads the system as Jan M has so aptly pointed out.  The more mega-renting that occurs by owners who have accounts with  VIP benefits and loads of resale points, the more points can contribute to demand to outweighing supply. I don't think it was intended to go this far.
> 
> The most fair solution would be for the system to limit the VIP benefits to only contracts that qualify for VIP.
> 
> Bob


Um brilliant idea why didn't I think of that?  This has gone around so many times I'm dizzy.    

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> As other poster's have touched on, the answer is that comes from Wyndham's right at 60 days to secure reservations from available inventory. They are just assigning that right to VIP owners on a transactional basis.  They technically could grant VIP owners the right to reserve inventory free of charge if they wanted to.


VIP discounts within 60 days are a nice benefit.  I think the idea is fine when it is used to reserve genuinely unloved units within 60 days.

Where things go wrong is when that benefit is used to convert premium units reserved at 13 months and 10 months (that would obviously never just sit in availability until 60 days), into discounted units reserved within 60 days.

If Wyndham were to use its points to reserve premium units such as these for rental, all owners, including VIPs would be up in arms.  I have presented how cancel-rebook pulls billions of Wyndham points into the system.  These points are reserving premium units, but VIPs are doing the reserving, so they think it is great.  From other owners’ perspective it is just extra competition for reservations, the same as if Wyndham were doing the reserving.  

Cancel-rebook and especially cancel-rebook-upgrade is not the benign activity some want to think it is, and they do hurt other owners. The Mardi Gras example showed how one VIP could screw another VIP.  I do not think that most who run the scams know how it impacts other owners, but they do know to be sneaky and tactical when converting the premium reservations to discount reservations, because other owners would immediately pounce on these reservations, if they saw the availability.

Wyndham may not be targeting the cancel-rebookers, and it is just coincidental that their accounts are temporarily frozen.  My opinion is that it is a small price to pay for cancel-rebooks in the past and cancel-rebook-upgrades yet to come.


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## raygo123

You don't have to be a VIP to get the best reservations, you can with owning 77,000 points.  A deeded primetime gets you there, at that particular resort.  Club Wyndham access gets you a prime time spot.  being on your computer at 7am eastern time at 10 months gets you there.  so I'm tired of all this  I can't crap.  I did it with a 154000 point resale contract for over 30 years and went where I wanted. Maybe not may first choice, but a great choice as far as I was concerned.  Never past my second.  The haves and have nots is more about what you are willing to do. Go buy yourself a club Wyndham access contract.  Rather than complaining about the elephants in the room. You may not have cancel and rebook, but you will get just about everything else.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> ovation will take your contracts (no more maintenance fees) and leave you with points 3x your contract size if you originally bought the contract from them
> 
> Look at it this way:    take back a stripped contract, hold it for 3 years as the points accrue paying $18000 in maintenance fees, . Wyndham can sell a million points for $150,000... How dumb is that
> 
> By the way Wyndhams target for cost of goods sold is 16%.. A deal like I described meets that goal



My question is will they take back stripped resale contracts? I agree with your math. 1,000,000 points roughly $18,000.00 for 3 year maintenance fees. If they take back stripped resale it would be cheaper for them to buy off eBay all day long. We can all get cheap points that way as soon as a contract hits your account credit pool and then call Ovation


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## ronparise

I think a look at how a floating weeks resort works might offer some perspective

lets image a 10 unit resort that is completely sold out and wher every week is a floating week across the whole year

we will have 10x52 = 520 owners  and at the beginning of each year there will be 520 weeks available to reserve

In January lets assume that of the 10 rooms available only 8 are occupied and lets further assume for the next 6 months the same thing happens. That means that in the first 6 months of the year 26 x 8 = 208 of the owners have enjoyed a vacation at their resort. What it also means is that there are 312 owners  yet to take their vacations but only 260 available weeks .. someone is going to be left out>    Did those owners that made reservations in the beginning of the year do anything wrong? no,  are those 48 owners that will pay their fees and not get a vacation get screwed? absolutely.. but thats just the way this particular timeshare is structured

Now lest look at wyndham. In my mind its just a really big floating resort with multiple locations  and 500000 owners of various sizes.  They have put together a number of rules and incentives to be as fair as possible to as many owners as possible, but there are some situations where individual owners get screwed.  Is that the fault of other owners?, no, 
its just the way it is

Wyndham seems to think that some of us have gamed the system in some way, by accident or design, and they intend to find out what happened>> I trust them to figure it out and take appropriate action.. at least thats my position today.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> My question is will they take back stripped resale contracts? I agree with your math. 1,000,000 points roughly $18,000.00 for 3 year maintenance fees. If they take back stripped resale it would be cheaper for them to buy off eBay all day long. We can all get cheap points that way as soon as a contract hits your account credit pool and then call Ovation



Ovation has told me in a face to face meeting in Orlando that they wont take back stripped contracts.


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## cayman01

*Depends*



ronparise said:


> Ovation has told me in a face to face meeting in Orlando that they wont take back stripped contracts.



I think that will depend on the contract. A million points at Shearwater or National Harbor they would take. A million at Shawnee Village or Sapphire, not so much. 

I think Wyndham is going to limit the cancel/rebook options to some extent. And the credit pooling. Could it be the system is getting to the point where there are not enough unused points and Wyndham owned points to cover all the discounts and credit pooling? I believe so. Therefore the rules must change.


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## bestresort

ronparise said:


> Thats exactly right, and every other owner that makes a reservation does the same.  Everyone that makes a reservation (high point value or not) is selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us.
> 
> That a VIP owner might be able to use their ownership to get it at a discount doesnt change that
> 
> I cant even accept your argument that the second, low value reservation ussd for the upgrade part of a cancel/rebook/cancel/upgrade strategy is being kept from the rest of the owners unfairly .Because for me the last part of the strategy is another rebook. I want that reservation too.  Im certainly keeping those reservations from the rest of you, but not unfairly.



>selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us. 

The guy that strips the points and then resells busted contract got everyone suspended.

I wonder who that is RP?


----------



## scootr5

bestresort said:


> The guy that strips the points and then resells busted contract got everyone suspended.
> 
> I wonder who that is RP?



Wait, you're blaming Ron for Wyndham suspending all of these accounts? What exactly are you basing that on?


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> VIP discounts within 60 days are a nice benefit.  I think the idea is fine when it is used to reserve genuinely unloved units within 60 days.
> 
> Where things go wrong is when that benefit is used to convert premium units reserved at 13 months and 10 months (that would obviously never just sit in availability until 60 days), into discounted units reserved within 60 days.
> 
> If Wyndham were to use its points to reserve premium units such as these for rental, all owners, including VIPs would be up in arms.  I have presented how cancel-rebook pulls billions of Wyndham points into the system.  These points are reserving premium units, but VIPs are doing the reserving, so they think it is great.  From other owners’ perspective it is just extra competition for reservations, the same as if Wyndham were doing the reserving.
> 
> Cancel-rebook and especially cancel-rebook-upgrade is not the benign activity some want to think it is, and they do hurt other owners. The Mardi Gras example showed how one VIP could screw another VIP.  I do not think that most who run the scams know how it impacts other owners, but they do know to be sneaky and tactical when converting the premium reservations to discount reservations, because other owners would immediately pounce on these reservations, if they saw the availability.
> 
> Wyndham may not be targeting the cancel-rebookers, and it is just coincidental that their accounts are temporarily frozen.  My opinion is that it is a small price to pay for cancel-rebooks in the past and cancel-rebook-upgrades yet to come.



I don't think anyone has been sneaky at all. This is a well known strategy talked about a lot on this forum and others

I'm not say it's good for the club and I'm not saying it's something that benefits other owners. 

I am saying that no one has been sneaky about it. And I'm saying that it doesn't manufacture points out of nothing and it doesn't take anything away from any other owner. I can't take anything from you that you don't already have and at 60 days before check in you don't have that Mardi Gras reservation, I do. And by this time (60 days before check in) I've had it for 11 months. If you wanted one you would own a LaBelleMaison deed and you would have been on the phone before me


----------



## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> Ovation has told me in a face to face meeting in Orlando that they wont take back stripped contracts.




Any longer true, but they have in the past.  

Just as in the long past you could get VIP via resale, but no longer. 

Rules change, so the ship has sailed on stripped contracts.


----------



## ronparise

bestresort said:


> >selfishly keeping that reservation from the rest of us.
> 
> The guy that strips the points and then resells busted contract got everyone suspended.
> 
> I wonder who that is RP?



No question that when I make a reservation, I keep it from the rest of you. That's just like when you make a reservation. It's kept from the rest of us

No one knows what it was that triggered these audits except that Wyndham sees an imbalance between points in reservations and contracts owned. And yes they saw it in my account too. But I wasn't the first one to have been suspended. It wasn't my account that started this thing

In this thread we have discussed any number of possible ways that " excess" points could have been generated. Everything from ovation to ghost points that come with a new purchase to Wyndham system errors to the cancel and rebook scam 

and yes I was suspended too. Chances are there are '"extra" points in my account from all these things. But to suggest I caused this to happen is a little far fetched


----------



## VivianLynne

Remember ... the 'blame others owners' tactic only helps to divide us. We need unity. Please share information; offline or via PM. Us owners are just sicken and totally stressed. 

Keeping civil, lessening stress, thinking, sharing information and working together benefits all of us. 

Unity in numbers.


----------



## Sandy VDH

I agree we have to stop pointing fingers, and stop crying foul.  But there does seem to be a bit of the perceived "have nots" resenting the perceived "haves".  

The system is what is it.  If you follow the rules, even if you don't agree with how those rules work, you are still following the rules and thus NOT doing anything wrong. Learn to play better instead of complaining.

I'm not frozen nor am I a mega renter, or have extra points, or stripped contracts, or whatever.  So I'm more of a 'have not' that a 'have'. So I can't comment, just observe, as a 1M point VIP Platinum owner.




Has anyone who was frozen, become unfrozen. 

Does anyone have an idea of how many accounts/TUG members accounts were frozen?

Just curious if those audited could share.  Information is knowledge.


----------



## Roger830

Sandy VDH said:


> I agree we have to stop pointing fingers, and stop crying foul.  But there does seem to be a bit of the perceived "have nots" resenting the perceived "haves".



The only animosity that I have seen here has been the haves against the have nots.

The haves resent that we purchased the same points at 5% or less than their cost.

This I don't understand. At the Hollywood Beach Resort, I have met original members that purchased units 30 years ago at higher prices and with dollars that could buy more. They are happy to have us resale buyers as members. I'm happy to have buyers that I know paid less than me. If there were no resale buyers,, the resort would cease to exist.

My problem isn't that a vip is getting a 50% discount. I'm concerned that if someone pays $30,000 for points, then can not book a decent reservation because others have more than their fair share, it's not good for the system and can lead to problems in the future if not restrained.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Vote the POLL ... information is power.


----------



## DeniseM

Your vote is *anonymous* - no one will know if you vote, or how you vote.


----------



## Ty1on

I think the problem here isn't blaming, it's that we're chasing all these wild geese that have nothing to do with the accounts being suspended.  It's somewhat understandable, since we don't _know_ why they were suspended, but the cancel/rebook argument has been rehashed multiple times in different threads, cannot be the cause or they would have suspended accounts years ago, and is a dead horse because Wyndham has given no indication that it's going away.  I don't think credit pool is the problem either, seeing that it's a balanced pool (at least when cancellations are refunded as they should be).


----------



## raygo123

DeniseM said:


> Your vote is *anonymous* - no one will know if you vote, or how you vote.


Where is this pole

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## scootr5

raygo123 said:


> Where is this pole
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk





Tapatalk won't show it unless you select "web view".


----------



## henley1

For everyone's benefit, I was NOT suspended.  My ownership began as a VIP Platinum in 2002 when I bought 308k developer points at Daytona beach and PIC'ed in 8-  3bdrm Red Weeks in South Africa (they have since reduced the total PIC's allowed).  This gave me a total of 2.3mm annual points.  During the last several years, the vast majority of my bookings have been cancel & rebook.  I've also recently purchased and additional 8mm points from ebay.  They were added to my account beginning in January 2016 and the last one transferred over earlier this month.  I have never "stipped" a contract.  And until this year i have only had one contract use year.  So I have never had the opportunity to roll canceled points forward due to the error in the old computer system.

I give you all this detail as a data point to test your theories about why accounts are being suspended.  I don't have quite the grasp on the system that many of these posters have, but it seems that the fact that my account has not being suspended (yet) indicates that Ron's original explanation (on page one or two of this thread) is the correct one.  Because for years I've been getting about 5mm points of use out of 308k points owned at Wyndham.

And might i also suggest that this thread be split into two conversations.  One for debating the virtues/shortcomings of the cancel/rebook.  And a second one for information about the recent account suspensions.

Thank you all for the taking the time to share.


----------



## chapjim

Sandy VDH said:


> I agree we have to stop pointing fingers, and stop crying foul.  But there does seem to be a bit of the perceived "have nots" resenting the perceived "haves".



The "have nots" are also "paid nots."  Otherwise, they might have a legitimate beef.  If they want to pay, they can have.


----------



## Roger830

chapjim said:


> The "have nots" are also "paid nots."  Otherwise, they might have a legitimate beef.  If they want to pay, they can have.



All of my contracts were paid at full price to Wyndham, there was no discount. The original owners didn't want the ongoing mf fee, so they made them available to me. I'm sure that there are no "paid nots" here.


----------



## Braindead

It's a fact we help the VIP Platinum owners. Because of us resale buyers paying maintenance fees instead of previous owners setting up ghost llc. So before you complain to loud thank us for having lower maintenance fees. I'm not crying the blues I just hope Wyndam makes changes and gives you discounts and upgrades the first time you make your reservation. Things could be so simple and tie up less units. You paid the big bucks you do deserve discounts and upgrades. I even posted I will consider buying a Platinum account. I am waiting to see how this shakes out first. Everyone of us need to stick together


----------



## Braindead

Wyndham policies are 100 percent at fault. VIP Platinum owners are 0 percent at fault for what is going on. The point mess wouldn't of ever happened with my suggestion. Cancel rebook upgrade would be gone. I hate that Wyndham policies make you tie up 3-4-5 units for 8t months for you to get the discounts and upgrades you deserve . Wyndham is the problem. There is no owner that is to blame for what is going on now


----------



## Sandy VDH

chapjim said:


> The "have nots" are also "paid nots."  Otherwise, they might have a legitimate beef.  If they want to pay, they can have.




Not true in every case.  I think there are a few "haves" that are "paid nots"


There are some that have got VIP Plat by some creative methods that Wyndham allows, or at least allowed at some point.  Or they managed to get a contract written that explicitly included it as part of the sale.


----------



## Braindead

I can't even find where I posted. Platinum would get 25-30 percent discount on all reservations and an allotment of upgrades maybe allow one upgrade level for every 77k of points. Do both discounts and upgrades at original booking


----------



## famy27

I'll post my perspective as an average owner. I have 259,000 resale points, so I guess I'm a "have not," but I don't feel any animosity towards the VIP/Platinum owners. In any system where there is more demand than supply, you are going to have winners and losers. You have to know the rules and play by them. I know that to get the "best" reservations, I need to be on the phone early in the morning at 10 months prior. Or I need ARP to get in at 13 months. But I am too cheap to buy a Glacier Canyon contract for ARP and too lazy to be calling Wyndham at 7:00 am. In the words of my toddler, I "get what I get and I don't throw a fit." 

I don't think VIP status is keeping me from any desirable reservations. In fact, I just got a three-bedroom presidential at Glacier Canyon for the first week in June. I'll take my daughters and their friends, and they will be thrilled. The presidential units there are our favorites. I've used another chunk of points to exchange in DVC in January. I always find some way to use my Wyndham points.

My issues are purely with Wyndham. Just when I think I learn the rules, they go and change them on me. My parents and I each have Wyndham contracts, and we used to transfer points to each other. Now that's gone. If we need to book rooms for each other, we have to pay the $99 extortion (guest cert) fee. Now they are freezing people's accounts and then doing audits. Seems like a bit of a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach. This could absolutely decimate megarenters businesses, even if Wyndham unfreezes their accounts. If reservations are lost, trust can be damaged, and renters may complain. I'm sure this is exactly what Wyndham wants, but it seems pretty underhanded to me.

Now that I own DVC, I am getting so tempted to dump Wyndham and buy more DVC points. No guest cert fees, housekeeping credits, transaction fees, etc. I have moved and added nights to my current DVC reservation three times, and it cost me nothing. I've done one night stays with ease. And nobody harasses me to get a stinkin' parking pass. 

I'm wishing good luck to the people with frozen accounts in getting all of this resolved in a timely manner.


----------



## mab345

*Suspended Accounts*

Can I ask what being suspended means to everyone on this forum?

Here is what it has meant to my family: 

Background about us: We have had accounts with Wyndham for around 10 years. We have been pooling points every year.  We also purchase points directly from Wyndham every year. We do cancel and rebook, so the majority of the points in our accounts are being used to hold reservations until we get to the cancel/rebook timeframe.

I can tell you that we found out last week that our accounts were suspended when we went to login and found an error message when trying to make a reservation. We then received an email from Wyndham with the following message:

Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at 877-298-2027 if you have any questions.

At this point, we can only call in to cancel reservations on our account.

We called the number from the email which went directly to a voicemail box. The voicemail box told us to leave a message and they would get back to us within the next 2 business days. 

We heard back from Wyndham one day later with an account representative and a Wyndham lawyer. They told us that we could call a lawyer to have on the phone as well while they were talking to us about our suspended account. Just wanting to know why our account was suspended, we told them to continue and that we did not currently need a lawyer. They then attacked us with all these numbers about our account, asking us how we could possibly have all these points. We told them that over the phone it's hard to understand where she was pulling all these numbers from. What year were they from? Was she including pooled points? Was she including points used on reservations? How far ahead was she going when she was calculating these points. She did not want to give answers to those questions. We asked her if she could send us the same report that she was looking at so that we could both be on the same page of understanding the numbers. She said no. 

She told us that Wyndham would be reviewing and reconciling our account. She told us that Wyndham would let us know what their decision is with our account in the next 2-3 weeks and until then, the account would remain suspended. She mentioned multiple times that we could call in and cancel reservations in our account in order to get the points ready to be taken. She also gave us the option to purchase all the points that she determined to be the excess in our account. 

We took notes when we were on the phone of all the numbers that they were throwing at us and emailed Wyndham to explain where the points are coming from (purchasing and pooling). We have not received any response.


----------



## johnstonga

*Thanks MAB345 for On Topic Post*

*MAB345,

Thanks for giving us the "Tick/Tock" of the current state of play of the "Wyn-Suspend Owner Round-Up".

My experience is very much same as I earlier posted ... but they didn't mention the purchase option for "excess points".
Even if I were inclined to purchase these "excess points", why would I if Wyndham can't keep track of the points (aka $$$) in my account?

My account has been frozen for a week ... I need to do One Guest Cert (I have 8 of my 30 left) and to cancel two mid Sept Res I am not gonna use.
We'll see if I can get that done tomorrow.*


----------



## uscav8r

famy27 said:


> I'll post my perspective as an average owner. I have 259,000 resale points, so I guess I'm a "have not," but I don't feel any animosity towards the VIP/Platinum owners. In any system where there is more demand than supply, you are going to have winners and losers. You have to know the rules and play by them. I know that to get the "best" reservations, I need to be on the phone early in the morning at 10 months prior. Or I need ARP to get in at 13 months. But I am too cheap to buy a Glacier Canyon contract for ARP and too lazy to be calling Wyndham at 7:00 am. In the words of my toddler, I "get what I get and I don't throw a fit."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think VIP status is keeping me from any desirable reservations. In fact, I just got a three-bedroom presidential at Glacier Canyon for the first week in June. I'll take my daughters and their friends, and they will be thrilled. The presidential units there are our favorites. I've used another chunk of points to exchange in DVC in January. I always find some way to use my Wyndham points.
> 
> 
> 
> My issues are purely with Wyndham. Just when I think I learn the rules, they go and change them on me. My parents and I each have Wyndham contracts, and we used to transfer points to each other. Now that's gone. If we need to book rooms for each other, we have to pay the $99 extortion (guest cert) fee. Now they are freezing people's accounts and then doing audits. Seems like a bit of a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach. This could absolutely decimate megarenters businesses, even if Wyndham unfreezes their accounts. If reservations are lost, trust can be damaged, and renters may complain. I'm sure this is exactly what Wyndham wants, but it seems pretty underhanded to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I own DVC, I am getting so tempted to dump Wyndham and buy more DVC points. No guest cert fees, housekeeping credits, transaction fees, etc. I have moved and added nights to my current DVC reservation three times, and it cost me nothing. I've done one night stays with ease. And nobody harasses me to get a stinkin' parking pass.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wishing good luck to the people with frozen accounts in getting all of this resolved in a timely manner.



If the corporate Wyndham lurkers read just one post in this never-ending thread, it needs to be this one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead

That's sounds like cancel rebook- cancel upgrade is what they are after. If Wyndham determines you created your own discount and or upgrade they might determine that's abuse and take the point savings back. Just goes back to Bigrob owners with access to more than one account will be able to go around the system. Any changes short of my idea will hurt the average Platinum owner and allow the mega renters to continue as they do today


----------



## Ty1on

As I understand it, this is not about cancel/rebook at all.  Like I said somewhere above, dead horse.


----------



## Sandy VDH

famy27 said:


> I'll post my perspective as an average owner. I have 259,000 resale points, so I guess I'm a "have not," but I don't feel any animosity towards the VIP/Platinum owners. In any system where there is more demand than supply, you are going to have winners and losers. You have to know the rules and play by them. I know that to get the "best" reservations, I need to be on the phone early in the morning at 10 months prior. Or I need ARP to get in at 13 months. But I am too cheap to buy a Glacier Canyon contract for ARP and too lazy to be calling Wyndham at 7:00 am. In the words of my toddler, I "get what I get and I don't throw a fit."
> 
> I don't think VIP status is keeping me from any desirable reservations. In fact, I just got a three-bedroom presidential at Glacier Canyon for the first week in June. I'll take my daughters and their friends, and they will be thrilled. The presidential units there are our favorites. I've used another chunk of points to exchange in DVC in January. I always find some way to use my Wyndham points.
> 
> My issues are purely with Wyndham. Just when I think I learn the rules, they go and change them on me. My parents and I each have Wyndham contracts, and we used to transfer points to each other. Now that's gone. If we need to book rooms for each other, we have to pay the $99 extortion (guest cert) fee. Now they are freezing people's accounts and then doing audits. Seems like a bit of a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach. This could absolutely decimate megarenters businesses, even if Wyndham unfreezes their accounts. If reservations are lost, trust can be damaged, and renters may complain. I'm sure this is exactly what Wyndham wants, but it seems pretty underhanded to me.
> 
> Now that I own DVC, I am getting so tempted to dump Wyndham and buy more DVC points. No guest cert fees, housekeeping credits, transaction fees, etc. I have moved and added nights to my current DVC reservation three times, and it cost me nothing. I've done one night stays with ease. And nobody harasses me to get a stinkin' parking pass.
> 
> I'm wishing good luck to the people with frozen accounts in getting all of this resolved in a timely manner.



I concur, good post.


----------



## Braindead

Ty1on said:


> As I understand it, this is not about cancel/rebook at all.  Like I said somewhere above, dead horse.



That was the explanation I could come up with after reading mab345 post. What other explanation can you come up with ?


----------



## Sandy VDH

For those who have been suspended, I can't believe Wyndham will not provide the report on your audit.  So together the accounts can be reviewed and justified. 

It is like they have the transaction history, but are forcing you to provide the data to justify your transactions. 

I still do not understand where wyndham thinks these points are coming from.  So maybe there is another source of issues within wyndham and some who pool or had stripped contracts somehow getting caught in the criteria used for the search.

Can you purchase the audit report?  I say it might be worth it right about now.  

I know that is the main reason why I keep track of my transactions.


----------



## raygo123

Braindead said:


> That's sounds like cancel rebook- cancel upgrade is what they are after. If Wyndham determines you created your own discount and or upgrade they might determine that's abuse and take the point savings back. Just goes back to Bigrob owners with access to more than one account will be able to go around the system. Any changes short of my idea will hurt the average Platinum owner and allow the mega renters to continue as they do today


Yea it will work until the next guy comes along and wonders why I'm getting a better deal than you.  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> That's sounds like cancel rebook- cancel upgrade is what they are after. If Wyndham determines you created your own discount and or upgrade they might determine that's abuse and take the point savings back. Just goes back to Bigrob owners with access to more than one account will be able to go around the system. Any changes short of my idea will hurt the average Platinum owner and allow the mega renters to continue as they do today



it doesnt sound like that at all.. read  mab345's post above


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> it doesnt sound like that at all.. read  mab345's post above


I guess the theory is if you say it enough it must be true.   

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead

mab345 said:


> Can I ask what being suspended means to everyone on this forum?
> 
> Here is what it has meant to my family:
> 
> Background about us: We have had accounts with Wyndham for around 10 years. We have been pooling points every year.  We also purchase points directly from Wyndham every year. We do cancel and rebook, so the majority of the points in our accounts are being used to hold reservations until we get to the cancel/rebook
> 
> She told us that Wyndham would be reviewing and reconciling our account. She told us that Wyndham would let us know what their decision is with our account in the next 2-3 weeks and until then, the account would remain suspended. She mentioned multiple times that we could call in and cancel reservations in our account in order to get the points ready to be taken. She also gave us the option to purchase all the points that she determined to be the excess in our account.



Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I think they have already determined that they are taking points away. Now they are trying to figure out how many points. Still can't come up for any other reason than previously posted. I welcome any other thoughts on what Wyndham is looking at


----------



## OutSkiing

ronparise said:


> it doesnt sound like that at all.. read  mab345's post above



I caught two things in mab345's circumstance:

- purchased points
- points pooled / carried over from prior years

Could Wyndham be that 'dumb' to completely miss these from their 'audit report' before taking such a draconian action?

I also worry about the fact that this was not clear before making a reservation change. I have not made a change since this whole thing came up. Could more of us be affected than know?

Bob


----------



## snickers104

I have logged into my account and I don't seem to be blocked....


----------



## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> I guess the theory is if you say it enough it must be true.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I have no dog in this fight but my impression is the same as Ron's. My overall impression is that Wyndham's information technology is completely inadequate to track the source of all of the points in a member's account. Credit pool --> book --> cancel --> rebook --> upgrade may be exacerbating the problem because its habitual use seems to disassociate points from their underlying source (as evidenced by people's complaints that points weren't going back to the right UY or pool), but I doubt it's what they're looking for with the freezes. And then buying points from Wyndham, which is their own feature, obviously creates homeless points that probably are just as poorly tracked in Wyn's system as anything else, but you can essentially double your points that way. Then you have the true hack/loophole/theft of duplicate reservations from thin air on transferred contracts (which I had never heard of before this thread).

In my opinion (as a resale, low points owner), it's only that last scenario that they should be targeting, and I hope that nobody else gets severely burned by these account freezes.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Braindead said:


> Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I think they have already determined that they are taking points away. Now they are trying to figure out how many points. Still can't come up for any other reason than previously posted. I welcome any other thoughts on what Wyndham is looking at



But you can't manufacture points and get them into an account.   There is only one way.   Purchase a contract, plain and simple.  Removing points, get rid of a contract.  

How can you move points from allocated use year to other years.  Easy, pool or borrow or rent.  

That is it. But all of those sources should be traceable and should be shown in audit.  

So that is what I do not understand, but it seems to be that perhaps Wyndham suspects another source of points.  That is also why I am thinking there might be multiple things going on and some pooling and striped and/or SOLD contracts are catching people up in this situation.  When you pool/borrow a lot and/or strip, pool and then then sell you will have an significantly larger number of points in your account from what you NOW own.  

So understanding what point sources you have, what year they came from and what you used them for.  Yes harder to keep track of if you do a lot of cancel and rebook, but obviously Wyndham is proving that is a requirement.

I have to suspect there is something else at work here and some innocent owners that fit a point ownership / points used ratio that caused scrutiny.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*Great first tug post - about " the spanish inquisition "*



mab345 said:


> Can I ask what being suspended means to everyone on this forum?
> 
> Here is what it has meant to my family:
> 
> Background about us: We have had accounts with Wyndham for around 10 years. We have been pooling points every year.  We also purchase points directly from Wyndham every year. We do cancel and rebook, so the majority of the points in our accounts are being used to hold reservations until we get to the cancel/rebook timeframe.
> 
> I can tell you that we found out last week that our accounts were suspended when we went to login and found an error message when trying to make a reservation. We then received an email from Wyndham with the following message:
> 
> Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at 877-298-2027 if you have any questions.
> 
> At this point, we can only call in to cancel reservations on our account.
> 
> We called the number from the email which went directly to a voicemail box. The voicemail box told us to leave a message and they would get back to us within the next 2 business days.
> 
> We heard back from Wyndham one day later with an account representative and a Wyndham lawyer. They told us that we could call a lawyer to have on the phone as well while they were talking to us about our suspended account. Just wanting to know why our account was suspended, we told them to continue and that we did not currently need a lawyer. They then attacked us with all these numbers about our account, asking us how we could possibly have all these points. We told them that over the phone it's hard to understand where she was pulling all these numbers from. What year were they from? Was she including pooled points? Was she including points used on reservations? How far ahead was she going when she was calculating these points. She did not want to give answers to those questions. We asked her if she could send us the same report that she was looking at so that we could both be on the same page of understanding the numbers. She said no.
> 
> She told us that Wyndham would be reviewing and reconciling our account. She told us that Wyndham would let us know what their decision is with our account in the next 2-3 weeks and until then, the account would remain suspended. She mentioned multiple times that we could call in and cancel reservations in our account in order to get the points ready to be taken. She also gave us the option to purchase all the points that she determined to be the excess in our account.
> 
> We took notes when we were on the phone of all the numbers that they were throwing at us and emailed Wyndham to explain where the points are coming from (purchasing and pooling). We have not received any response.



******
I am a non Wyndham owner - TUG member and daily reader .
Great Post - It will inspire me to add Wyndham to the Wastegate pile ( file ) 

IMHO - right now the bean- counters and lawyers are running a "Spanish Inquisition " ( read the history ) 

When all of you next visit a Wyndham resort and go to the "owner update" 
bring along a copy --- speak to the sale mgr & I bet you are out of there in a " New York Minute " 

Then you can post your story on the existing TUG thread - fastest presentation 

.


----------



## mab345

Braindead said:


> Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I think they have already determined that they are taking points away. Now they are trying to figure out how many points. Still can't come up for any other reason than previously posted. I welcome any other thoughts on what Wyndham is looking at



For us, our Wyndham representative was very focused on the number of points in our account. She was not focused at all on the cancel/rebook. She said how can you have more points than the number of contract points in your account? I dont think she understands pooling. I dont think she understands use years. I think she is taking our account at its face value and multiplying it by three (for three pooled years) and saying that is the max that can be in our account for all reservations/points. All the points that are above our contract face value x 3 are the ones that are currently being questioned. 

Is this the same for others?


----------



## Bigrob

mab345 said:


> For us, our Wyndham representative was very focused on the number of points in our account. She was not focused at all on the cancel/rebook. She said how can you have more points than the number of contract points in your account? I dont think she understands pooling. I dont think she understands use years. I think she is taking our account at its face value and multiplying it by three (for three pooled years) and saying that is the max that can be in our account for all reservations/points. All the points that are above our contract face value x 3 are the ones that are currently being questioned.
> 
> Is this the same for others?



I believe that is the case. The filter seems to be accounts >1M with X% more than 3 years worth of points in available or pooled points and reservations. Although at this point in time, it would be possible to have points that were pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 in an account (5X) - and that's without considering any points that could have rolled forward that took place prior to the change of cancelled points going back to their source.

Have you sold or transferred any contracts?


----------



## Braindead

If I'm wrong and all of you are right and I do hope I'm wrong for all of you. I would sure expect Wyndham to fire all involved in this PR disaster. Also hope you all get together and sue for damages if nothing is wrong. Right now Wyndham is prosecutor-judge-jury


----------



## mab345

Bigrob said:


> I believe that is the case. The filter seems to be accounts >1M with X% more than 3 years worth of points in available or pooled points and reservations. Although at this point in time, it would be possible to have points that were pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 in an account (5X) - and that's without considering any points that could have rolled forward that took place prior to the change of cancelled points going back to their source.
> 
> Have you sold or transferred any contracts?



We have not done any stripping. We have been adding to our account every year, not selling contracts out of it.


----------



## raygo123

Bigrob said:


> I believe that is the case. The filter seems to be accounts >1M with X% more than 3 years worth of points in available or pooled points and reservations. Although at this point in time, it would be possible to have points that were pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 in an account (5X) - and that's without considering any points that could have rolled forward that took place prior to the change of cancelled points going back to their source.
> 
> Have you sold or transferred any contracts?


Not only that, I can't see how stripping a contract of points and selling it is a problem if, as been the case it had been disclosed to potential buyers.  It is part of the consideration of the sale.  A highly desirable resort may have such a demand for that resale contract that just getting it is consideration enough, and the paying the MF for those years is the cash equivalent.  It is like taking out a 0% loan.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobbyoc23

Wyndham must have a developement/test environment for their computer system that manages reservations and associated points.  What they could have done was kindly invite a few VIP members who appeared to have a "problem" with their account to Wyndham headquarters, saying they would like their help in reviewing their account activity and to determine how they were able to use as many points as they have.  They could ask the VIP to help recreate scenarios in their test environment to show Wyndham how one can obtain greater than 3x the point totals in their contracts.  This would accomplish a few things:

1. Show respect for VIP owners
2. Save a ton of money on lawyers and auditors
3. Keep this quiet(er)
4. Give them an opportunity to learn exactly how their own system works

I'm sure Wyndham and the VIP could negotiate fair compensation for this exercise...


----------



## Sandy VDH

raygo123 said:


> Not only that, I can't see how stripping a contract of points and selling it is a problem if, as been the case it had been disclosed to potential buyers.  It is part of the consideration of the sale.  A highly desirable resort may have such a demand for that resale contract that just getting it is consideration enough, and the paying the MF for those years is the cash equivalent.  It is like taking out a 0% loan.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk




Stripping in this context is not a problem for the buyer, except they have to pay MF for years on a TS they can't use, but rather for the seller.

It could cause a trigger, as you have far more points in your account by pooling and THEN you remove a points contract, thus increasing the discrepancy between the annual point ownership the number currently in your account.


----------



## Bigrob

mab345 said:


> We have not done any stripping. We have been adding to our account every year, not selling contracts out of it.



Your audit should be pretty clean then, as long as nothing transferred in incorrectly. Unfortunately "clean" does not translate into "painless".

In a sense one can liken this to an audit from the IRS. Being audited doesn't mean you've done something wrong; but certain types of returns are more likely to be audited than others. And having done nothing wrong doesn't protect you from having to defend yourself and prove that everything is as it should be. And that can be expensive and time-consuming.

Your case sounds particularly interesting as a potential example of Wyndham alienating a long-term owner with multiple direct purchases through the years - exactly the type of owner they should be bending over backward to NOT alienate. I wonder what the likelihood is that you would now consider another direct purchase from Wyndham? My guess is, not in your lifetime...


----------



## Sandy VDH

The poll so far should over 18% of those who voted who are suspended. 
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245862

Now TUGgers are a savvy bunch, but that is still a high % of votes.  And NOT a single person has yet to have their account unfrozen.  Yikes.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*One Week- 328 posts/ pg 14 - 13,454 views Wyndham's Spanish Inquisition"*

FYI

A  2016 comparison - Marriott Forum - Pool Bar Jim suspended - 

started July 3rd - 256 posts / pg 11 - 21505 views 

********
I think the Wyndham  horse will win the race .

.


----------



## bnoble

Braindead said:


> That was the explanation I could come up with after reading mab345 post. What other explanation can you come up with ?



As Ron (and many others) have said many many times: cancel-rebook-upgrade does not generate more points in points/reservations in a single UY than are owned in that UY, because if you finally cancel the rebooked/upgraded unit you get the discounted number of points back, not the "book value" of the reservation.

What *does* generate more points/reservations in a single UY than are owned are four things:

1: Credit pooling (within both the letter and the spirit of the rules)
2: Renting additional points from Wyndham at $8/K (ditto)
3: Account stripping (ditto, IMO---explanation below)
4: Roll-forward of cancelled points (probably not within the spirit of the rules, but no longer possible*)

If I had to bet, I'd bet that Wyndham will leave 1-3 alone, but it's 50/50 as to whether they claw back some points as a result of #4. Some are not so sure about #3, but I don't see how that's causing an imbalance of points in any particular UY---the Credit Pool balancing rules cover supply/demand balance (and the pool hasn't run dry in years now). I also don't see how anyone is getting "free" points from stripped contracts. The seller is using the points, and the buyer is paying the MFs for them. If that buyer was Wyndham, well, _caveat emptor_.

Edited to add: If it is possible to credit pool rented points, one might consider that a grey area as well, but I'd have to think about it. Consider: what difference does it make if I rent them this year and pool them, or if I just rent them in the eventual year of use? If anything Wyndham might prefer the former, because they get their money earlier, and the Credit Pool rules would prevent any supply/demand imbalance in a particular UY.

(*: I think.)


----------



## ronparise

OutSkiing said:


> I caught two things in mab345's circumstance:
> 
> - purchased points
> - points pooled / carried over from prior years
> 
> Could Wyndham be that 'dumb' to completely miss these from their 'audit report' before taking such a draconian action?
> 
> I also worry about the fact that this was not clear before making a reservation change. I have not made a change since this whole thing came up. Could more of us be affected than know?
> 
> Bob



They didnt do the audit first,, they are doing the audits now.. as someone said in another post, shoot first and ask questions later. 


I believe that wyndham knew about using different use years to roll points forward, otherwise why did they realign all the uses years a few years ago.  The problem is that after the great realignment, they didnt realign use years when you bought new contracts  as they should have.  and as they promise on every estopple. 

and the folks that were rolling points forward before, bought selective contracts to do it again

as far as selling stripped contracts. Obviously Wyndham knew this was happening because Wyndhams title dept has their hands on every contract that sells (and interestingly most if not all of the lawyers that work for Wyndham work in the title dept) So if selling stripped contracts is a problem its a problem that wyndham allowed to happen. And of course as others have suggested, its not Wyndhams concern at all, its a contractual arrangement between buyer and seller. As long as someone is paying the fees, where's the problem. 

The only other way I can see to "manufacture" points is by taking advantage of Wyndhams computer glitches.  I dont know that this stuff ever happened, but I do know that several times last year Wyndham sent me an email saying that they had corrected a mistake in my account by adding or subtracting points... So I assume they were on top of these


----------



## bnoble

> and the folks that were rolling points forward before, bought selective contracts to do it again


I thought this no longer worked now that cancel points don't exist, and cancellations return as Regular points in their original UY. Or, has that part not been fixed entirely?


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> As Ron (and many others) have said many many times: cancel-rebook-upgrade does not generate more points in points/reservations in a single UY than are owned in that UY, because if you finally cancel the rebooked/upgraded unit you get the discounted number of points back, not the "book value" of the reservation.
> 
> What *does* generate more points/reservations in a single UY than are owned are four things:
> 
> 1: Credit pooling (within both the letter and the spirit of the rules)
> 2: Renting additional points from Wyndham at $8/K (ditto)
> 3: Account stripping (ditto, IMO---explanation below)
> 4: Roll-forward of cancelled points (probably not within the spirit of the rules, but no longer possible*)
> 
> If I had to bet, I'd bet that Wyndham will leave 1-3 alone, but it's 50/50 as to whether they claw back some points as a result of #4. Some are not so sure about #3, but I don't see how that's causing an imbalance of points in any particular UY---the Credit Pool balancing rules cover supply/demand balance (and the pool hasn't run dry in years now). I also don't see how anyone is getting "free" points from stripped contracts. The seller is using the points, and the buyer is paying the MFs for them. If that buyer was Wyndham, well, _caveat emptor_.
> 
> Edited to add: If it is possible to credit pool rented points, one might consider that a grey area as well, but I'd have to think about it. Consider: what difference does it make if I rent them this year and pool them, or if I just rent them in the eventual year of use? If anything Wyndham might prefer the former, because they get their money earlier, and the Credit Pool rules would prevent any supply/demand imbalance in a particular UY.
> 
> (*: I think.)



Excellent summary, can I hire you to represent me in this matter

You did miss a big possibility and that is points that come into the account as a result of wyndhams faulty systems,


----------



## Braindead

Cancel rebook doesn't generate extra points I agree. In mab345 OP. I think Wyndham is going to claim that some abused or intentionally manipulated the system to get discounts and upgrades and gained an unfair advantage. Mab345 is an interesting insight no stripping no selling. As I read in between the lines they are asking to prioritize existing reservations which ones are you willing to keep or lose


----------



## Bigrob

bnoble said:


> I thought this no longer worked now that cancel points don't exist, and cancellations return as Regular points in their original UY. Or, has that part not been fixed entirely?



He means that after the great UY re-alignment that occurred several years ago... maybe 2012? that owners bought non-January UYs and when those new contracts transferred in, they were not automatically re-aligned to January, and owners could roll cancelled points again. But yes, the change made last year brings points back "to where they came from" at least in theory, so if you cancel a reservation made with points that expire 2 years from now, they should go back to being points that expire two years from now (i.e., back to the same credit pool). I believe there is a problem, however, that when a credit pool is exhausted, the points don't know where to go back to, so they have defaulted to regular use points, which is not what the new policy is.


----------



## bnoble

Braindead said:


> I think Wyndham is going to claim that some abused or intentionally manipulated the system to get discounts and upgrades and gained an unfair advantage.


We have had several first-hand accounts of conversations between Wyndham and owners of suspended accounts. In every single instance, the conversation centered on accounts with significantly more points/reservations in a UY than points owned in that UY. Because that can't be done via cancel/rebook/upgrade, that can't be what Wyndham is concerned about today.

I suppose that in some hypothetical future Wyndham might put cancel/rebook/upgrade within its sights. But, we do not appear to be living in that hypothetical future at this time.

So, please do us all a favor and stop testifying to the wisdom of your user name selection. In the meantime, welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Excellent summary, can I hire you to represent me in this matter
> 
> You did miss a big possibility and that is points that come into the account as a result of wyndhams faulty systems, the things like when I cancel a reservation and get double points back.(yes it happens)   One could argue that if wyndham screwed up I should be allowed to keep these points. Thats my argument but I dont think I will win it.. It no different than if a bank teller hits a wrong button and adds a zero to my deposit... Its not my money and I cant keep it



I have seen reservations that show a different point value than it should have cost to book. What I have not been clear on is whether those were the number of points used for the reservation (meaning, the reservation took more points to book than it should have, but the points would still balance), or just how many points the system thought the reservation was. If the latter that would be a cause for discrepancy, and may have been what those adjustments were about early in the year. 

Regarding whether you should be allowed to keep the points due to Wyndham's screw-up... I doubt that will get very far, unless you were able to show how you were harmed by the error.


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> Excellent summary, can I hire you to represent me in this matter


Thanks. However, I am not a lawyer, and so cannot legally do so.  However, after I tell you my consulting rate, you are likely to look elsewhere anyway...


----------



## uscav8r

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> ******
> I am a non Wyndham owner - TUG member and daily reader .
> Great Post - It will inspire me to add Wyndham to the Wastegate pile ( file )
> ...


This is an issue that seems to be affecting a rather small amount of vocal owners. I still have way more ability to use the Wyndham system as a resale owner than a Westgate owner will. So in my mind, these should not be thrown into the same category.

And isn't a major theme behind TUG to buy resale?


----------



## Roger830

I've read all of the posts on this thread, so I might as well express my opinion on what's happening.

The fact that a lawyer is monitoring the conversations is significant. Also, the scope of the investigation seems all incompassing.

I can't imagining this happening unless it comes from the executive suite. My quess is that cancel/rebook wouldn't attract their attention, it encourages up selling. 

What would atract their attention would be numerous units renting at half of what Wyndham charges. This is surely costing them thousands of dollars in lost rental and sales income. 

If the outcome just results in lost points and a few rule changes, feel fortunate.

Look at what happened to a few teenagers that were sharing music online. They wouldn't have spent much on cd's, but settlements were about $8500 because of economic damage to the industry.


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> Thanks. However, I am not a lawyer, and so cannot legally do so.  However, after I tell you my consulting rate, you are likely to look elsewhere anyway...



i bet you would be worth it


----------



## chapjim

Roger830 said:


> All of my contracts were paid at full price to Wyndham, there was no discount. The original owners didn't want the ongoing mf fee, so they made them available to me. I'm sure that there are no "paid nots" here.



So, the original owners belonged in the "paid" category because they paid Wyndham.  Somebody paid, just not you, right? 

That's my point.  I paid full fare so I get some bennies.  You didn't and you don't.  What the original owners paid is totally irrelevant.


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> Excellent summary, can I hire you to represent me in this matter
> 
> You did miss a big possibility and that is points that come into the account as a result of wyndhams faulty systems, the things like when I cancel a reservation and get double points back.(yes it happens)   One could argue that if wyndham screwed up I should be allowed to keep these points. Thats my argument but I dont think I will win it.. It no different than if a bank teller hits a wrong button and adds a zero to my deposit... Its not my money and I cant keep it


Especially 2.  For rounding purposes,  say the trust is in for $6/1000.  Wyndham, the marketing department rented 10 mill they buy them from the trust for $6 and divi-up the $2.  Between marketing and management.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## raygo123

You have to read Ron's post #10.  Perspective

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

I think some should come to a couple of conclusions. 1. Wyndham isn't showing their hand at everything they are looking at. 2. If it was as simple as 3-4-5 times point in an account that would have been explained and done. After seeing this on a couple of audited accounts they would have unfrozen all of your accounts and added some restrictions until your audit was complete. A lot more is going on than meets the eye


----------



## John or Jane Doe

ronparise said:


> I believe that wyndham knew about using different use years to roll points forward, otherwise why did they realign all the uses years a few years ago.  The problem is that after the great realignment, they didnt realign use years when you bought new contracts  as they should have.  and as they promise on every estopple.
> 
> and the folks that were rolling points forward before, bought selective contracts to do it again



Wyndham was aware.  It was used as a sales pitch.  

Some accounts were never realigned. If you requested a realignment, they would not prorate points (like they did for the accounts those chose to realign).


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## Braindead

I have asked twice in the last 3 months to change the use year on transferred contracts and asked for and received pro rated points


----------



## Roger830

bnoble said:


> As Ron (and many others) have said many many times: cancel-rebook-upgrade does not generate more points in points/reservations in a single UY than are owned in that UY, because if you finally cancel the rebooked/upgraded unit you get the discounted number of points back, not the "book value" of the reservation



If you put $1000 in the bank and I then borrow $1000, $1000 has been created. You still have your money and I have mine.

If I change my mind and return the $1000, then the money supply is reduced, but it doesn't change the fact that $1000 was previously created.

If you have a reservation for 200,000 points, then cancel and rebook it for 100, 000 points, then book a reservation for me at 100,000 points, you still have your reservation and I have a reservation just like created money. 

If you then see a 200,000 point reservation at 6 months that you want and cancel both of our reservations, you are now back to 200,000 points but it doesn't change the fact that 100,000 points had been previously created.


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> If you put $1000 in the bank and I then borrow $1000, $1000 has been created. You still have your money and I have mine.
> 
> If I change my mind and return the $1000, then the money supply is reduced, but it doesn't change the fact that $1000 was previously created.
> 
> If you have a reservation for 200,000 points, then cancel and rebook it for 100, 000 points, then book a reservation for me at 100,000 points, you still have your reservation and I have a reservation just like created money.
> 
> If you then see a 200,000 point reservation at 6 months that you want and cancel both of our reservations, you are now back to 200,000 points but it doesn't change the fact that 100,000 points had been previously created.



I no economist but I do understand how money is created when you borrow from a bank, But thats not whats happening when book something at a discount.  here nothing is borrowed

It reminds me of first year Chemistry Class over 50 years ago>> Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another


----------



## OutSkiing

bnoble said:


> I also don't see how anyone is getting "free" points from stripped contracts. The seller is using the points, and the buyer is paying the MFs for them. If that buyer was Wyndham, well, _caveat emptor_.



If someone purchases a stripped contract without prior knowledge that its stripped, you can bet they'd complain to Wyndham about not being able to travel on that contract.  If uncovered in this process, Wyndham might take them from the seller and give them to the buyer in an effort to be fair.  They would be spreading goodwill.

I know, I know .. why start doing goodwill now.

Bob


----------



## OutSkiing

snickers104 said:


> I have logged into my account and I don't seem to be blocked....


I have been logging in with no problems and now I tested the ability to start a reservation.  Seems to be no blockage.


----------



## Roger830

ronparise said:


> I no economist but I do understand how money is created when you borrow from a bank, But thats not whats happening when book something at a discount.  here nothing is borrowed



The examples show that transactions created money and transactions created a reservation.

Don't call it points being created from transactions, just reservations. The result is the same.


----------



## scootr5

OutSkiing said:


> If someone purchases a stripped contract without prior knowledge that its stripped, you can bet they'd complain to Wyndham about not being able to travel on that contract.  If uncovered in this process, Wyndham might take them from the seller and give them to the buyer in an effort to be fair.  They would be spreading goodwill.
> 
> I know, I know .. why start doing goodwill now.
> 
> Bob



They should be complaining to the seller, if that's not what the contact stipulated; that's the definition of breaking a legal contract. Their recourse is with the seller in that instance, and Wyndham has no obligation to get involved.


----------



## OutSkiing

scootr5 said:


> They should be complaining to the seller, if that's not what the contact stipulated; that's the definition of breaking a legal contract. Their recourse is with the seller in that instance, and Wyndham has no obligation to get involved.



A contract that I once bought arrived in my Wyndham account with fewer points than advertised.  In that case the broker (Timeshare Recyclers) took some points from one of their own accounts and gave them to me! They were not legally obligated to do so. Wyndham did not charge them to do so. It spread goodwill enough for me to plug their name again now a few years after the fact.  

Bob


----------



## scootr5

OutSkiing said:


> A contract that I once bought arrived in my Wyndham account with fewer points than advertised.  In that case the broker (Timeshare Recyclers) took some points from one of their own accounts and gave them to me! They were not legally obligated to do so. Wyndham did not charge them to do so. It spread goodwill enough for me to plug their name again now a few years after the fact.
> 
> Bob



I'm not quite following this Bob. If you had a contract to buy a 154,000 annual contract with first year of use in 2017, when it hits your account it should have 154,000 2017 points available. Any less, and it is absolutely the sellers legal obligation to get you those points.

Now, whether it makes economic sense to legally pursue the matter is another thing entirely....


----------



## buckor

scootr5 said:


> I'm not quite following this Bob. If you had a contract to buy a 154,000 annual contract with first year of use in 2017, when it hits your account it should have 154,000 2017 points available. Any less, and it is absolutely the sellers legal obligation to get you those points.
> 
> Now, whether it makes economic sense to legally pursue the matter is another thing entirely....


Hey Scott, I think what Bob is talking about is where you are buying a 154k contract with 54k left on the current year, but something less than 54k actually transferring when the contract hits the account. I see offers for these types of contracts on eBay frequently.


----------



## CO skier

Sandy VDH said:


> The poll so far should over 18% of those who voted who are suspended.
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245862
> 
> Now TUGgers are a savvy bunch, but that is still a high % of votes.



Judging by all the noise made when the suspensions were announced, I expected the percentage of savvy Wyndham TUGers who are suspended to be more than double the 18% amount.

I mean, really, 86% of Wyndham TUGers at this moment are not affected by the suspension?  

It would be an interesting statistic to see how many posts in this thread were related to reservation manipulations such as cancel/rebook, how many posts to stripped Wyndham points accounts, and how many posts to suspended accounts.  

I think the tally would put the posts related to suspended accounts a distant third.  Unprecedented in the timeshare world as the suspensions may be, it now does not appear to be that big of a deal., except to those who are directly affected.


----------



## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> Judging by all the noise made when the suspensions were announced, I expected the percentage of savvy Wyndham TUGers who are suspended to be more than double the 18% amount.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, really, 86% of Wyndham TUGers at this moment are not affected by the suspension?
> 
> 
> 
> It would be an interesting statistic to see how many posts in this thread were related to reservation manipulations such as cancel/rebook, how many posts to stripped Wyndham points accounts, and how many posts to suspended accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the tally would put the posts related to suspended accounts a distant third.  Unprecedented in the timeshare world as the suspensions may be, it now does not appear to be that big of a deal., except to those who are directly affected.



It would be called the "silent majority" in other circumstances. I believe the actual number of TUG Wyndham owners to be lower than the 18% due to the likely selection bias inherent in this poll (and thread). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> It would be called the "silent majority" in other circumstances. I believe the actual number of TUG Wyndham owners to be lower than the 18% due to the likely selection bias inherent in this poll (and thread).


As an additional point regarding selection bias, because there is such a high percentage of TUG Wyndham owners relative to the general ownership who know how to "maximize their ownership", I would expect the percentage of all owners in Club Wyndham affected by the suspensions to be less than 0.30%.

Affect on future developer sales?  Next to nothing.

TUGgers know to buy resale.


----------



## bnoble

OutSkiing said:


> If someone purchases a stripped contract without prior knowledge that its stripped



That's what the estoppel is for, to clear up things that the seller might have conveniently forgotten to mention.


----------



## tschwa2

The owner could use points (or credit pool) after the estoppel but before the transfer.  If you buy from an 3rd party seller this can be done without the sellers knowledge.


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## CO skier

OutSkiing said:


> If someone purchases a stripped contract without prior knowledge that its stripped





bnoble said:


> That's what the estoppel is for, to clear up things that the seller might have conveniently forgotten to mention.




I do not think a Wyndham estoppel reveals if an account has been stripped of future usage.

Even some experienced TUG members get blindsided by these stripped accounts.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1872088&postcount=5


----------



## Roger830

CO skier said:


> I do not think a Wyndham estoppel reveals if an account has been stripped of future usage.
> 
> Even some experienced TUG members get blindsided by these stripped accounts.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1872088&postcount=5



One of my contracts was stripped of the next years points.

The estoppel was a few months old and the closing took 6 months, so the prior owner transferred the points to rci. I received a check from him for the points, which was fine with me because I bought the contract for the future.


----------



## CO skier

Roger830 said:


> One of my contracts was stripped of the next years points.
> 
> The estoppel was a few months old and the closing took 6 months, so the prior owner transferred the points to rci. I received a check from him for the points, which was fine with me because I bought the contract for the future.


That is another good point -- the owner still controls the account when the estoppel is issued, and can use points between the time the estoppel is issued and the time the account transfers.

Did the estoppel list only the current year's usage, or did it list any future years' usage, too.


----------



## Roger830

It just showed the points available in the current use year.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> It would be an interesting statistic to see how many posts in this thread were related to reservation manipulations such as cancel/rebook, how many posts to stripped Wyndham points accounts, and how many posts to suspended accounts.
> 
> I think the tally would put the posts related to suspended accounts a distant third.  Unprecedented in the timeshare world as the suspensions may be, it now does not appear to be that big of a deal., except to those who are directly affected.



And if we were to break down the statistics to exclude all the posts (and replies) you made decrying the inequity of cancel/rebook, I think the tally would trend to the topic being discussed.

I am not being dismissive of your right to do so, only observing that it greatly affected the signal to noise ratio.


----------



## am1

Received an e-mail this afternoon saying that we can now add guest names to reservations.  But called the number and it goes to voicemail.  No discount on the guest confirmation fee because we can only do it online.  I do appreciate them stating that in e-mail although I do not agree with having to pay $129.


----------



## cayman01

*Could it be.....*

I am beginning to wonder if this isn't Wyndham trying to fix a problem in their system. There seems to be an ongoing problem with the accounting of points, especially in megarenter accounts ( but not limited to them). I have come across many postings from people who have had points taken from their accounts because of a Wyndham error. Methinks this is MUCH more widespread than has been discussed. And Wyndham isn't offering any explanations. 

 I also think that their first inclination was that people were gaming the system. Thus the scattergun suspension approach. Assume they are guilty and convict. Then as they are auditing the accounts they are finding nothing nefarious on the owner's part. Thus a couple are already unfrozen. Yet the problem still exists. So something in their computer program is burping up points out of thin air. 

 I also think it is very plain to see that Wyndham's employees are very poorly trained for their jobs. They don't understand their own rules to their system. Especially credit pooling. As BigRob points out an account can have points covering five different use years available to them today. The inquisitors at Wyndham seem completely oblivious to this.

 Yet I cannot believe that Wyndhams Computer System doesn't know how many points are out there and is able to account for them. I think when it boils down to it, once Wyndham adds up all the points including credit pools, rentals, cancelled points etc. it has found that there are way too many points still out there that are unaccounted for. Points that ARE there but SHOULDN'T be. After assuming (wrongly) that people have gamed the system they are realizing its the software that is creating these points out of thin air. And they have no idea what is causing it.


----------



## ronparise

cayman01 said:


> I also think it is very plain to see that Wyndham's employees are very poorly trained for their jobs. They don't understand their own rules to their system. Especially credit pooling. As BigRob points out an account can have points covering five different use years available to them today. The inquisitors at Wyndham seem completely oblivious to this.



I take issue with the paragraph Ive quoted above

every Wyndham employee Ive worked with or talked to knows his or her job very well and they all really seem dedicated to the company and their overall mission of providing us with an excellent vacation experience.

the problem is as I see it everyone has their own job to do and they do it well but they dont always know what the guy working down the hall does or how all the moving parts fit together.  > I think the folks in owner care probably know the system best, but even they refer problems out to the various department to get things fixed 

A perfect example of what Im talking about happened to me last year. I had several new purchases in the transfer department that got "stuck". Transfer couldnt tell me why except that I had to call finance, (the presumption was that I owed them money)  So I called finance and went over each account, and I was up to date.  so I called transfer and they said to call finance again, and I couldnt get the two departments to talk to each other.. ultimately I drove to Orlando and got supervisors from both departments in the same room.. and they figured it out. 

Its the same thing with credit pooling... the lawyers dont (or didnt until now) have any reason to know whats what with credit pooling, 

When I worked for a state government, problems like  these called for interagency task forces, sometimes pulling people from two states and the District of Columbia 
if you ever visit National Harbor you might be interested to know that 384 million gallons a day of treated Sewage (some of it from the White House) is discharged to the river, just upstream from the resort


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Received an e-mail this afternoon saying that we can now add guest names to reservations.  But called the number and it goes to voicemail.  No discount on the guest confirmation fee because we can only do it online.  I do appreciate them stating that in e-mail although I do not agree with having to pay $129.



The email I received also indicated a timeframe of an additional 10-14 days to complete the audit.


----------



## Braindead

Didn't Bigrob or some of you ask owner care to review your account regarding points in the past few months?  I also thought there was some pretty sizable adjustments that didn't trigger any action. Ron they may not like you but it does seem odd they didn't call someone ln like yourself and go through the audit with you present before suspending all of you. It could be a very interesting annual meeting next year


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Didn't Bigrob or some of you ask owner care to review your account regarding points in the past few months?  I also thought there was some pretty sizable adjustments that didn't trigger any action. Ron they may not like you but it does seem odd they didn't call someone ln like yourself and go through the audit with you present before suspending all of you. It could be a very interesting annual meeting next year




actually I think they like me just fine. but as I said  in a post above, its a big company and as many folks as Ive met, over the years, Im sure I dont know them all.   A call would have been nice, but I dont think the end result would have been any different...

this was posted today elsewhere on TUG, and is another example of what Im talking about.. in large organizations the left hand doesmt always know what the right hand is doing (or why) or how everything fits together in the organization

"Earlier in August, leading cable manufacturer Leoni AG announced it has fallen victim to an online scam that has cost the company a staggering $44 million in funds. Following two weeks of investigation, new details have surfaced today and it was revealed the thieves used the oldest trick in the book to swindle Leoni.

The attackers cunningly cooked up emails to appear like legitimate payment requests and proceeded to send them to a satellite of Leoni in Bistrita, Romania, Softpedia reports.

The fraudulent messages were then received and handled by one of the companies financial officers, who then proceeded to honor all the invoices, paying out $44 million in the process...."


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> actually I think they like me just fine. but as I said  in a post above, its a big company and as many folks as Ive met, over the years, Im sure I dont know them all.   A call would have been nice, but I dont think the end result would have been any different...
> 
> this was posted today elsewhere on TUG, and is another example of what Im talking about.. in large organizations the left hand doesmt always know what the right hand is doing (or why) or how everything fits together in the organization
> 
> "Earlier in August, leading cable manufacturer Leoni AG announced it has fallen victim to an online scam that has cost the company a staggering $44 million in funds. Following two weeks of investigation, new details have surfaced today and it was revealed the thieves used the oldest trick in the book to swindle Leoni.
> 
> The attackers cunningly cooked up emails to appear like legitimate payment requests and proceeded to send them to a satellite of Leoni in Bistrita, Romania, Softpedia reports.
> 
> The fraudulent messages were then received and handled by one of the companies financial officers, who then proceeded to honor all the invoices, paying out $44 million in the process...."



I saw that article.  I was thinking it is mis-written, as it should say "The fraudulent messages were then received and handled by one of the companies _former_ financial officers, who then proceeded to honor all the invoices, paying out $44 million in the process"


----------



## jediinprescott

Bigrob said:


> The email I received also indicated a timeframe of an additional 10-14 days to complete the audit.



I also received that email. It also says that in addition to being able to cancel we can now add Guest Certs up to Sept 12 ( oddly between 10-14 days). Stated that GC would cost $129. I assume that means if you don't have any freebies left. Frustrating because on the other hand I'm still getting the love notes from Wyndham that I have a couple overlapping reservations that need GC's.


----------



## ronparise

jediinprescott said:


> I also received that email. It also says that in addition to being able to cancel we can now add Guest Certs up to Sept 12 ( oddly between 10-14 days). Stated that GC would cost $129. I assume that means if you don't have any freebies left. Frustrating because on the other hand I'm still getting the love notes from Wyndham that I have a couple overlapping reservations that need GC's.





left hand....please meet right hand


----------



## Bigrob

jediinprescott said:


> I also received that email. It also says that in addition to being able to cancel we can now add Guest Certs up to Sept 12 ( oddly between 10-14 days). Stated that GC would cost $129. I assume that means if you don't have any freebies left. Frustrating because on the other hand I'm still getting the love notes from Wyndham that I have a couple overlapping reservations that need GC's.



Yes, that was worded oddly. I believe you would be able to add a guest confirmation to any reservation, not just those that start before September 12th, but I could be wrong. Has anyone added a guest confirmation to a reservation that starts after September 12th?

It may mean that they anticipate releasing some of the accounts by September 12th (wishful thinking?)  Of course you're correct, if you can only add GCs to reservations through September 12th, you are in danger of having reservations cancelled that start on Sept 13-17th if two of them are booked in the same name.


----------



## jediinprescott

Bigrob said:


> Yes, that was worded oddly. I believe you would be able to add a guest confirmation to any reservation, not just those that start before September 12th, but I could be wrong. Has anyone added a guest confirmation to a reservation that starts after September 12th?
> 
> It may mean that they anticipate releasing some of the accounts by September 12th (wishful thinking?)  Of course you're correct, if you can only add GCs to reservations through September 12th, you are in danger of having reservations cancelled that start on Sept 13-17th if two of them are booked in the same name.


Bigrob
I talked to various Wyndham folks today.  Nobody can give any info as to what was happening and all agreed that they could not add any GC beyond Sept 12. They all have their orders. I agree that they may be trying to open things up in the next two weeks. To me it's pretty obvious it's an IT problem with Wyndham. They're the only folks who can add or subtract from your points total.
Mike


----------



## ronparise

jediinprescott said:


> Bigrob
> I talked to various Wyndham folks today.  Nobody can give any info as to what was happening and all agreed that they could not add any GC beyond Sept 12. They all have their orders. I agree that they may be trying to open things up in the next two weeks. To me it's pretty obvious it's an IT problem with Wyndham. They're the only folks who can add or subtract from your points total.
> Mike



Did the folks you talked to give any indication as to how many were affected


----------



## johnstonga

*Still Frozen, but Call Center OK'd GC and Cancellations*

*My Account is still Frozen but I needed to cancel 2 res  and add 1 guest cert.

First, Fri. AM I called the designated "Wyn-Suspend Round-up" Vmail number and left message  promising a follow-up email after I gave the regular call center a try.

The Springfield Call Center Rep -- helpful as almost always --  ultimately found a way to cancel the two reservations .... and added the Guest Cert for the LATE Sept arrival (ie after 9/12).
------- No cost to me on GC as I still have some Freebies left.

Haven't received any email of cancellation or GCs, but that usually comes next day when done thru Call Center, so I am  in "trust but verify" mode.  (Hence the additional email below)

Lastly, I followed up with detailed email to the designated "Wyn-Suspend Round-up" email address.   
Also added the suggestion that they check to see how many points I got back into my account for the two cancellation ----Full Points???   or the actual reservation point-cost after VIP discount and a free unit upgrade.

Winter HAS Come ..... and it's a DEEP Freeze ..... 
Let's hope we skip Spring and go straight to an early Summer.*

SAT AM Postscript ---- 
the Guest Cert was added by the Call Center, I got the confirmation email this AM ...... 
the 2 Res were also cancelled and the Correct # of additional points did show up in my "Point Status" this AM.   However they came back as Regular Points expiring 12/31/16... which is probably not the right 'bucket'


----------



## COAIR005

*Updates?*

Has anyone had subsequent interaction with the "Account Review" group or had their account reinstated?


----------



## jediinprescott

ronparise said:


> Did the folks you talked to give any indication as to how many were affected



Ron
No they didn't but all are sympathetic listeners.


----------



## am1

With all this mess going on is it worth it to short WYN?  A play that could make any of us more money then we ever thought of if correct.


----------



## Ty1on

am1 said:


> With all this mess going on is it worth it to short WYN?  A play that could make any of us more money then we ever thought of if correct.



To have an effect on investor sentiment, it would need to be a lot more publicized than it is.  In addition, analysts would need to draw a line between this action and future poor financial performance.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> With all this mess going on is it worth it to short WYN?  A play that could make any of us more money then we ever thought of if correct.



Wyndham is a lot more than just timeshares and I dont think this will amount to any loss of earnings. As long as they hit their targets,  the stock price will be fine. 

The timeshare part of wyndham makes money by selling and financing and managing the resorts. This mess that we are in doesnt impact that at all.  The only damage done buy the creation of extra points is to other owners that find less availability than they should. 

Regarding the stock, wyndhams big concern right now, if you can believe Steven Holmes in his quarterly earnings calls is an unnamed group that is encouraging wyndham owners to default.. Foreclosures require wyndham to set aside money to cover the default and that impacts quarterly earnings. Heres what was said in the most recent call  "Defaults for the quarter were $74 million. That's an increase of $14 million, which was almost entirely due to the organized third-party efforts."   In the long run however they make money on foreclosures, because they keep all the money they have collected from the defaulting individual and theyget the product to resell at full price  (timeshares dont depreciate)

Bottom line is I wouldnt bet against Wyndham stock.. These guys are really good at what they do.


----------



## Braindead

I do think it has affected resale prices especially on large point contracts on eBay. I would bet almost all resale buyers have atleast read some here. There's 500k CWA for $1,298.00 all in expiring tonight with no bids. 830k CWA sold last week for less than $3,500 all in.         You know Wyndham doesn't lose any sleep over that. It will be interesting to see how hard of a stance Wyndham takes as they unfreeze your accounts. One would hope they would offer an apology and some free points for being suspended. I never thought they would leave all of you frozen this long without some updates along


----------



## vacationhopeful

Braindead said:


> <snip>       You know Wyndham doesn't lose any sleep over that. It will be interesting to see how hard of a stance Wyndham takes as they unfreeze your accounts. One would hope they would offer an apology and some free points for being suspended. I never thought they would leave all of you frozen this long without some updates along



Really? As a corporation which planned and executed this "freeze" .... you thought they are suddenly going to be 'warm and fuzzy' and play 'kisseie face' to a group of smucks they just _HAD_ to teach a lesson to?


----------



## bogey21

vacationhopeful said:


> Really? As a corporation which planned and executed this "freeze" .... you thought they are suddenly going to be 'warm and fuzzy' and play 'kisseie face' to a group of smucks they just _HAD_ to teach a lesson to?



I don't think I would have said it quite that way but tend to agree with the thought.

George


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> I do think it has affected resale prices especially on large point contracts on eBay. I would bet almost all resale buyers have atleast read some here. There's 500k CWA for $1,298.00 all in expiring tonight with no bids. 830k CWA sold last week for less than $3,500 all in.         You know Wyndham doesn't lose any sleep over that. It will be interesting to see how hard of a stance Wyndham takes as they unfreeze your accounts. One would hope they would offer an apology and some free points for being suspended. I never thought they would leave all of you frozen this long without some updates along



As brain dead as this thought might be, I agree, unless of course they see a pattern of abuse, 

Intereting the ebay thing... I know I havent even looked at ebay since my account was suspended.


----------



## Dill

I tried to keep up with this thread but got last very early. Sorry if this is a dumb question but has anyone identifies exactly what the account holders were doing wrong that got them frozen?


----------



## jediinprescott

Dill said:


> I tried to keep up with this thread but got last very early. Sorry if this is a dumb question but has anyone identifies exactly what the account holders were doing wrong that got them frozen?



Don't know about others but in my case it appears that somehow there are way more points in my account than I own. I have not credit pooled or done any significant cancel/rebook but some how points just got added.
Mike


----------



## Bigrob

Dill said:


> I tried to keep up with this thread but got last very early. Sorry if this is a dumb question but has anyone identifies exactly what the account holders were doing wrong that got them frozen?



It is not a case of "account holders doing something wrong". It is a case of a disproportionate number of points in an account relative to the point values of the contracts held in that account. So far as I have been able to determine, that is the primary factor that has triggered the audit and freezing of accounts.


----------



## ronparise

That's all we know.  Too many points 
But the bigger problem is Wyndham doesn't seem to know why or how. Which is why, I suspect the audit is taking as long as it is. 

I can explain it in my account but my explanation doesn't apply to every one. Three seems to be a multitude of possibilities  

And so we wait


----------



## ecwinch

Dill said:


> I tried to keep up with this thread but got last very early. Sorry if this is a dumb question but has anyone identifies exactly what the account holders were doing wrong that got them frozen?



As mentioned above the condition that seems to have triggered the freeze is having more total credits in your acct than your contracts roll up to.

With the likely objective of stopping people from circumventing the credit transfer rule by buying contracts, pooling the credits, and selling off the stripped acct. IMHO.


----------



## kaljor

I'm not an owner yet, but I've followed this whole thread very carefully.  I won't discuss the possible issues because I don't know enough, but I know enough to say that if this "audit" ends with no fault found with the owners of the suspended accounts, then Wyndham owes it to those folks to offer some fair compensation for taking their property rights away for however long the accounts were suspended.  I can't believe that any company in America can suspend your contractual and property rights on a suspicion alone, and not be liable for a penalty if they're wrong.


----------



## cayman01

*Wyndham*

What wyndham should be doing is working WITH the people who have frozen accounts instead of assuming their guilt and freezing their accounts. Just between Ron and Big Rob I believe Wyndham could get to the bottom of the mystery points in an afternoon. I think what is happening is Wyndham is refunding extra points on cancelled reservations. That's the only way i see points being created out of thin air. Why their software is doing that is the question.


----------



## bestresort

*People abused the credit pooling feature*

and now wyndham is punishing the innocent.

I tried to credit pool this years unused points and was told Wyndham has a new policy in effect. 

They are recharacterising this years regular use points and adjusting out 2015 cancelled points that became regular last year

You can only credit pool a very small fraction of this years regular use points
So in my case i have 1.5m i have to use this year and points that can not be pooled


----------



## scootr5

bestresort said:


> and now wyndham is punishing the innocent.
> 
> I tried to credit pool this years unused points and was told Wyndham has a new policy in effect.
> 
> They are recharacterising this years regular use points and adjusting out 2015 cancelled points that became regular last year
> 
> You can only credit pool a very small fraction of this years regular use points
> So in my case i have 1.5m i have to use this year and points that can not be pooled



You're saying Wyndham told you that you can not credit pool your points? I'm assuming you're Platinum VIP, since that's the only way you could still be credit pooling this year's points.

Re-characterizing this year's points as what?


----------



## bestresort

*im vip and cant credit pool this years points*

they said last years cancelled points (that became regular points) and spilled over to 2016 cant be banked

all reservations made went to this year regular points and they are saying my remaining balance is last years cancelled points (that became regular points in oct 2015 and spilled over to 2016

So they arent using fifo, they are using LIFO

Bottom line, they are changing rules on the fly


----------



## bnoble

> Bottom line, they are changing rules on the fly


Not quite. In the old system, Regular points were used before Cancel points in the same UY. You could call and sometimes get that reversed, but there is at least a plausible explanation for what they are telling you.


----------



## Bigrob

bestresort said:


> they said last years cancelled points (that became regular points) and spilled over to 2016 cant be banked
> 
> all reservations made went to this year regular points and they are saying my remaining balance is last years cancelled points (that became regular points in oct 2015 and spilled over to 2016
> 
> So they arent using fifo, they are using LIFO
> 
> Bottom line, they are changing rules on the fly



I don't think they can make that stick. If you had known that points were going to expire in a manner not in accordance with the way they had changed the treatment, you would have done something differently with them; worst case scenario you would have deposited to RCI or something.


----------



## am1

Today (not the first time) I had reservations cancelled that were considered overlapping.  This was because I could not add guest names to reservations (after September 12) and could not cancel as at the 15 day mark I was not told about a reservation so I did not know I needed to cancel it.  Wyndham would not restore the points if they cancelled it now.  Yesterday I got an owner care rep to add notes to my account stating that they are not to cancel any of my reservations as I have restricted access to my account.  The rep I spoke to today would not rebook the reservation and told me to e-mail a case manager, knowing by the time the case manager replied the room would be gone.


----------



## COAIR005

I'm really getting tired of their antics!


----------



## COAIR005

*Call their ceo!*

retracting post.


----------



## COAIR005

retracting post.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

*Best address or contact*

What do people suggest as far as who to send a letter to and/or who to call?

They aren't doing all that hot responding to emails to the email address they gave us (sending generic response, not answering specific questions or requests).  The special 877 number is now answering, but only to cancel a reservation or add GC's.


----------



## Bigrob

COAIR005 said:


> retracting post.



I am not sure what was posted here. 

I am sure Wyndham wants to get it right for the benefit of all owners. But I agree this could have been handled in a different manner rather than in a fashion that seems to be deliberately disruptive to the largest points owners, especially given that they have acknowledged the error is on their end.

However, I doubt a call to the CEO's office (very doubtful you could actually speak to the CEO) would be helpful to resolve the issue, as the CEO's office would just refer you back to your "Case Manager". I believe the heavy-handed treatment will continue as long as it is allowed to continue. I am not sure of the full set of options one could entertain to attempt to move things forward, but I can imagine they would include things such as 1) seeking an injunction (requires expensive legal fees); 2) filing a complaint with BBB 3) seeking assistance from consumer advocacy groups or media that have a consumer advocate department (have to find one that would find the case "newsworthy")

This cannot continue indefinitely, and the longer it drags on the bigger Wyndham's potential liability is in the event a suit is filed (which now appears likely).


----------



## bnoble

> seeking assistance from consumer advocacy groups or media that have a consumer advocate department (have to find one that would find the case "newsworthy")


This might be the most likely possibility---particularly for Orlando-area media, as that's still a major sales market, and it's HQ's home turf.


----------



## bestresort

*picket headquarters*

and invite the media

organize owners to counsel prospective new victims/owners at all sales centers


----------



## bestresort

*changing rules on the fly*



Bigrob said:


> I don't think they can make that stick. If you had known that points were going to expire in a manner not in accordance with the way they had changed the treatment, you would have done something differently with them; worst case scenario you would have deposited to RCI or something.



>I don't think they can make that stick.

They said its a new policy and all my protestations fell on deaf ears


----------



## bobdaz

HI this link goes to the Chanel 9 ABC in Orlando ask Todd for help if enough owners submit to him maybe he can help it a start 

http://askwftv.com/?page_id=12


----------



## spackler

bobdaz said:


> HI this link goes to the Chanel 9 ABC in Orlando ask Todd for help if enough owners submit to him maybe he can help it a start
> 
> http://askwftv.com/?page_id=12



Having a small % of timeshare owners' accounts temporarily suspended for review isn't a news story.


----------



## bnoble

Probably not.  But, "Mean Old Timeshare Developer" does sometimes get traction in Orlando on a slow news day.


----------



## ronparise

spackler said:


> Having a small % of timeshare owners' accounts temporarily suspended for review isn't a news story.



I've had a lawyer tell me he has a media contact that wants to do this story

maybe the thrust of the story he wants to do is;  "finally a developer is doing something about the mega renter issue"

That's probably not it though. I think the lawyer wants to try this thing in the court of public opinion. And my guess is that  they plan something like bnoble suggests


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> maybe the thrust of the story he wants to do is;  "finally a developer is doing something about the mega renter issue"


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*A thought -----*



bnoble said:


> Probably not.  But, "Mean Old Timeshare Developer" does sometimes get traction in Orlando on a slow news day.



This thread - 16 days - 21.237 views -414 posts  / make it 415  with my post .

Someone can PM TUG Brian  for stats - but I believe it could be one of the fastest growth posts in 2016 and perhaps in TUG history .

Brian is looking to break 80,000 users -( for TUG 23rd anniversary - Oct. 2016 )

 perhaps a protest / picket line & getting  this on the news in Orlando would help do it

***********
I PM ed TUG Brian /' Aug 9

.


----------



## am1

Guest names can be added to reservations checking in September 30 or earlier.   
An e-mail should be sent out shortly.  Great news as it is outside the 15 day window so no risk of Wyndham canceling overlapping reservations but also means this will probably go on longer then expected or at least longer then Wyndham originally told us.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Guest names can be added to reservations checking in September 30 or earlier.
> An e-mail should be sent out shortly.  Great news as it is outside the 15 day window so no risk of Wyndham canceling overlapping reservations but also means this will probably go on longer then expected or at least longer then Wyndham originally told us.



Perhaps it is another revenue enhancement strategy to continue to rake in an additional $30 for each guest confirmation on top of the $99.


----------



## Bigrob

I received an email with the same information; it indicated 3-5 additional business days, with some accounts taking longer.

The wording in the message was a bit awkward, so either the lawyers didn't write it, intended for it to be confusing, or are overwhelmed with the task at hand.

"Dear XXXXXXX-

Thank you for your continued patience as we work to reconcile your account. At this time, we anticipate we will have an update on your account in the next 3-5 business days while a few accounts may take additional time."

So... this could be interpreted to mean my account will be updated in 3-5 business days while some other accounts (not mine) may take longer? Or, is this intended to be more generic and imply that my account could be one of those "other accounts" that take additional time?

I guess either way it's going to take however long it takes. But like others who are impacted, I want to get this resolved sooner rather than later.


----------



## gwspops

bobdaz said:


> Has anyone ever received and email from Wyndham like this and what does it mean
> 
> Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at  if you have any questions.


The excess points in owner accounts is completely legitimate, carried over from the era where Wyndham had "Cancelled Points" aka "Perpetual Points".    (Cancelled Points were eliminated by Wyndham on Oct 01, 2015.)

Cancelled points have no set expiration date within the Wyndham accounting system, and in all accounts with multiple contracts, etc, those points continued to ROLL FORWARD indefinitely.    

Prior to Oct 2015 --- All it took to roll cancelled points forward another year was to book anything late in the year, and then cancel it.    Like magic, the points came back with a later expiration date.    

Example:   Once my 2012 points became cancelled points, I could move those same points to have a 2013 expiration, then a 2014 expiration, and finally, the expiration would creep forward into 2015.     

And then Wyndham said NO MORE in Oct 2015.      

This feature/phenomenon was give the label of PERPETUAL POINTS.   

It was 100% caused by the Canceled Points system Wyndham had in place at that time.

Paul


----------



## am1

A bunch or other ways where it may seem like an account has more points then it should.  

Reservation would not cancel at 15 days ( system down as an example), and the next day Wyndham cancels the reservation, points are forfeited but the same amount of points are added to the account.

Additional points were issued as part as compensation for room scheduled  to be down.  I have made out quite well with this one in the past.  Maybe 3 times the regular amount of points returned to my account. 

When an upgrade would not go through (assuming because of software bug) room booked at regular amount of points and then the difference added to the account.

While at the resort the stay was not as advertised and points refunded back to account.  

These are just a few of the reasons.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Updates*



Bigrob said:


> I received an email with the same information; it indicated 3-5 additional business days, with some accounts taking longer.



I have not gotten any emails regarding the status of my review.  Today marks 3 weeks I have been off-line.  Are there any other owners not getting email updates?  Thanks to all who have been sharing their updates.

DB


----------



## Bigrob

debrinkleyusa said:


> I have not gotten any emails regarding the status of my review.  Today marks 3 weeks I have been off-line.  Are there any other owners not getting email updates?  Thanks to all who have been sharing their updates.
> 
> DB



Have you been sending emails to the acctinfo@wyn.com email address? I don't know if that has influenced it or not, but I have been asking for updates frequently. I've also had them put notes in the account when I've called.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

Bigrob said:


> Have you been sending emails to the acctinfo@wyn.com email address? I don't know if that has influenced it or not, but I have been asking for updates frequently. I've also had them put notes in the account when I've called.



Actually I have been emailing with the lawyer who led the discussions during my initial callback from acctinfo.  He even called me today in response to a request I made asking to credit pool some points that were just deposited into my account from a recent purchase.  He said he was sorry that they had not finished the review in the two weeks they had originally estimated but he did not indicate the 3 to 5 day window your email stated.  

FYI, no he did not offer to give me an exception to allow credit pooling my new points.  However, he did say whatever deadlines I might miss due to this audit could be retroactively adjusted if the audit determines I do not owe them any points.


----------



## Bigrob

debrinkleyusa said:


> Actually I have been emailing with the lawyer who led the discussions during my initial callback from acctinfo.  He even called me today in response to a request I made asking to credit pool some points that were just deposited into my account from a recent purchase.  He said he was sorry that they had not finished the review in the two weeks they had originally estimated but he did not indicate the 3 to 5 day window your email stated.
> 
> FYI, no he did not offer to give me an exception to allow credit pooling my new points.  However, he did say whatever deadlines I might miss due to this audit could be retroactively adjusted if the audit determines I do not owe them any points.



I don't want to seem negative, but I doubt that he would have said that if they did not have reason to believe that there are points to be adjusted in your account. However, I think you should push back because even if there are points that the system incorrectly managed for you in your account, that is not your fault and should not limit your rights (unless of course you "owe" more points than the newly purchased contract is worth).


----------



## bogey21

debrinkleyusa said:


> However, he did say whatever deadlines I might miss due to this audit *could be* retroactively adjusted if the audit determines I do not owe them any points.



"could be" is typical lawyer talk.  I wouldn't rely on it meaning anything.

George


----------



## bobdaz

Has anyone received any more info on there accounts being unfrozen, I have sent a few emails but have not received any updated info other than the last email saying it would be 3-5 business days more 

Thanks


----------



## John or Jane Doe

Nothing here. 

Sounds like we all got the same email. 

I have sent several emails with questions, they have never been answered. Just got the same form letters it seems everyone else has gotten. 

JJ


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*Congradulations wyndham - " BEST "NEW 2016 TUG thread*

I believe Wyndham has helped create the new 2016 TUG thread with the most 2016 views (and fastest  growth ) - in the 2016 horse race .

This thread is now at 23,675 views ( Aug 12 2016. - 10 pm eastern time )
and did it in 20 days !!!

My informal - now. in 2nd place for a 2016 thread -  is the Marriott forum thread :Grande Ocean - Pool Bar Jim suspended ?!   at 23, 183 views 

******

CONGRADULATION WYNDHAM  !!!!

.


----------



## am1

If Wyndham owners/tug users only knew everything else Wyndham does or has done in the past.  I could write a book on it.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> If Wyndham owners/tug users only knew everything else Wyndham does or has done in the past.  I could write a book on it.



With so many owners being naive and ill informed this website provides a valuable source of information. Occasionally I see posts made by people that make me think they are working for Wyndham to distract from important issues, create and spread strife and misleading information. So a big thank you to those of you who go out of your way to share accurate and factual knowledge of the system and assist others.

A couple of years ago I was contacted by a group of attorneys trying to solicit participants in a class action law suit against Wyndham. We were not interested in joining then or even now. In my conversations with the attorney I learned some stuff that I would have been much happier not knowing. And I have to be honest and say that at the time I didn't really believe what he told me. I know someone who although not an owner has friends or contacts in Wyndham and is very discreet about keeping what he knows to himself. He literally laughed in my face when I expressed doubt over what the attorney told me. His advice to me was to get my head of the sand but not to let what I learned sour me and ruin my enjoyment of staying at the resorts.  

We truly enjoy using the timeshares and have no regrets. I understand that Wyndham like any other company is in the business of making money. Do I wish they were more transparent and that they would focus a whole lot more of their time and attention on doing the jobs we pay them to do in managing our resorts? Absolutley! 

I also believe Wyndham has a good product. But the sales tactics they both openly employ and underhandedly promote do nothing but detract from the value of the product.


----------



## jediinprescott

John or Jane Doe said:


> Nothing here.
> 
> Sounds like we all got the same email.
> 
> I have sent several emails with questions, they have never been answered. Just got the same form letters it seems everyone else has gotten.
> 
> JJ


Ditto from me...nothing. Stress level is building on how they will choose to resolve the "where did all these points come from" issue.


----------



## WynDeepthroat

jediinprescott said:


> Ditto from me...nothing. Stress level is building on how they will choose to resolve the "where did all these points come from" issue.



This will be my only post- do not ask for any further details. I am risking a lot by making this post. Wyn owners deserve to know that many of us inside are disturbed by the treatment given to the large account holders. Those impacted should band together and secure legal representation. There are attorneys in the Florida versed in protocols and precedents that apply. The Wyn attorneys at not the ones to be feared; they follow the orders of middle management, case managers, and the department ironically known as Owner Care. OC is in control of the attorneys and will dismiss those who balk at following directives. This has led to decisions and actions that are unethical, possibly illegal.  
Your attorney can get you control of your accounts by pursuing an injunction based upon factors including the harm of lost reservations, impacted businesses and lack of due process including good faith negotiating. He will get quicker results if he asks for the assistance of Florida Attorney General citing suspicion of Wyn being out of trust. This seems the cause of the draconian measures. Have attorney subpoena inter office communications. The ones to and from attorneys will be protected. But the ones between OC managers and case workers should be the most damning and lack the attorney privilege.  
Ask that your communications with Wyn be recorded and you be provided a copy of the recording. Keep track of every lost reservation, lost rental opportunity, or extra cost incurred for guest confirmations. All of this is liability that needs to be compensated, sometimes with penalties that add a punitive factor for failure to provide the full bundle of rights due owners. If the initial attorney assigned to your case is not involved in the final resolution, Why? Some know the actions are unethical, they have been relieved of this assignment. Others were used for a show of strength as most owners cower at dealing with a corporate attorney. 
Answers to the problems within our points accounting system have been sought, the recurring theme is faulty programming not properly beta tested. Some owners likely knew they were getting more than due, others did not. The majority suspended have a cache of points and reservations that exceed their annual point allocation. This is due to factors discussed on this thread with points stripping being a rare one. The two primary reasons found are points forwarding with cancellations and faulty points returned on some cancellations - discussed on other threads. One results in points moving forward, the other creates points from nothing.  Each of these are a computer issue and not an evidence of owners defrauding Wyn. 
The bottom line is that Wyn has failed to maintain accounting procedures for points balances, and rather than admit such are aggressively pursuing the best paying customers. Most Wyn legal battles involve a regretful buyer or an owner upset with loss of privileges. Wyn prevails in most of these. However this is different as fault lies with Wyn and failure to engage due process and fair negotiation to resolve the issue. 

Good luck.


----------



## taterhed

....This tape will self-destruct in 5 sec....4....3...2....


----------



## Slinger

WynDeepthroat said:


> This will be my only post- do not ask for any further details. I am risking a lot by making this post. Wyn owners deserve to know that many of us inside are disturbed by the treatment given to the large account holders. Those impacted should band together and secure legal representation. There are attorneys in the Florida versed in protocols and precedents that apply. The Wyn attorneys at not the ones to be feared; they follow the orders of middle management, case managers, and the department ironically known as Owner Care. OC is in control of the attorneys and will dismiss those who balk at following directives. This has led to decisions and actions that are unethical, possibly illegal.
> Your attorney can get you control of your accounts by pursuing an injunction based upon factors including the harm of lost reservations, impacted businesses and lack of due process including good faith negotiating. He will get quicker results if he asks for the assistance of Florida Attorney General citing suspicion of Wyn being out of trust. This seems the cause of the draconian measures. Have attorney subpoena inter office communications. The ones to and from attorneys will be protected. But the ones between OC managers and case workers should be the most damning and lack the attorney privilege.
> Ask that your communications with Wyn be recorded and you be provided a copy of the recording. Keep track of every lost reservation, lost rental opportunity, or extra cost incurred for guest confirmations. All of this is liability that needs to be compensated, sometimes with penalties that add a punitive factor for failure to provide the full bundle of rights due owners. If the initial attorney assigned to your case is not involved in the final resolution, Why? Some know the actions are unethical, they have been relieved of this assignment. Others were used for a show of strength as most owners cower at dealing with a corporate attorney.
> Answers to the problems within our points accounting system have been sought, the recurring theme is faulty programming not properly beta tested. Some owners likely knew they were getting more than due, others did not. The majority suspended have a cache of points and reservations that exceed their annual point allocation. This is due to factors discussed on this thread with points stripping being a rare one. The two primary reasons found are points forwarding with cancellations and faulty points returned on some cancellations - discussed on other threads. One results in points moving forward, the other creates points from nothing.  Each of these are a computer issue and not an evidence of owners defrauding Wyn.
> The bottom line is that Wyn has failed to maintain accounting procedures for points balances, and rather than admit such are aggressively pursuing the best paying customers. Most Wyn legal battles involve a regretful buyer or an owner upset with loss of privileges. Wyn prevails in most of these. However this is different as fault lies with Wyn and failure to engage due process and fair negotiation to resolve the issue.
> 
> Good luck.



Thank you for taking the time to share your insight and opinions. I hope that people having issues take heart to your advice. I know that I would if I were "frozen."


----------



## buckor

Holy smokes!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*THANK YOU - from a concerned NON Wyndham owner /TUG member*



WynDeepthroat said:


> This will be my only post- do not ask for any further details. I am risking a lot by making this post. Wyn owners deserve to know that many of us inside are disturbed by the treatment given to the large account holders. Those impacted should band together and secure legal representation. There are attorneys in the Florida versed in protocols and precedents that apply. The Wyn attorneys at not the ones to be feared; they follow the orders of middle management, case managers, and the department ironically known as Owner Care. OC is in control of the attorneys and will dismiss those who balk at following directives. This has led to decisions and actions that are unethical, possibly illegal.
> Your attorney can get you control of your accounts by pursuing an injunction based upon factors including the harm of lost reservations, impacted businesses and lack of due process including good faith negotiating. He will get quicker results if he asks for the assistance of Florida Attorney General citing suspicion of Wyn being out of trust. This seems the cause of the draconian measures. Have attorney subpoena inter office communications. The ones to and from attorneys will be protected. But the ones between OC managers and case workers should be the most damning and lack the attorney privilege.
> Ask that your communications with Wyn be recorded and you be provided a copy of the recording. Keep track of every lost reservation, lost rental opportunity, or extra cost incurred for guest confirmations. All of this is liability that needs to be compensated, sometimes with penalties that add a punitive factor for failure to provide the full bundle of rights due owners. If the initial attorney assigned to your case is not involved in the final resolution, Why? Some know the actions are unethical, they have been relieved of this assignment. Others were used for a show of strength as most owners cower at dealing with a corporate attorney.
> Answers to the problems within our points accounting system have been sought, the recurring theme is faulty programming not properly beta tested. Some owners likely knew they were getting more than due, others did not. The majority suspended have a cache of points and reservations that exceed their annual point allocation. This is due to factors discussed on this thread with points stripping being a rare one. The two primary reasons found are points forwarding with cancellations and faulty points returned on some cancellations - discussed on other threads. One results in points moving forward, the other creates points from nothing.  Each of these are a computer issue and not an evidence of owners defrauding Wyn.
> The bottom line is that Wyn has failed to maintain accounting procedures for points balances, and rather than admit such are aggressively pursuing the best paying customers. Most Wyn legal battles involve a regretful buyer or an owner upset with loss of privileges. Wyn prevails in most of these. However this is different as fault lies with Wyn and failure to engage due process and fair negotiation to resolve the issue.
> 
> Good luck.



*******
Thank you - As I said in post 428 - this may be the fastest growth in viewers of any TUG thread started in 2016 .

Right now it is averaging over 1100 views PER DAY .

( many ,many threads never get to 1000 / lifetime )

Your post shows folks at the Big W are reading it .
I hope the bosses are as well.

.


----------



## SueDonJ

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> *******
> Thank you - As I said in post 428 - this may be the fastest growth in viewers of any TUG thread started in 2016 .
> 
> Right now it is averaging over 1100 views PER DAY .
> 
> ( many ,many threads never get to 1000 / lifetime )
> 
> Your post shows folks at the Big W are reading it .
> I hope the bosses are as well.
> 
> .



Of course Wyndham is reading this - they'd have to be completely inept to ignore any social media postings about this!

While I believe that the impacted owners should have been seeking legal guidance from qualified experts as soon as they'd been notified that their accounts were suspended, it's very important to be aware of scam artists and fly-by-nights when doing so.  Do your own reaching out through legitimate sources.  Don't respond to any unknowns who contact you with unsolicited offers or advice until after you've been able to research them through legitimate channels.  Be careful, and good luck.


----------



## ilya

WOW.. Thanks for the post. I thought I was overreacting. And I'm not a large account 708,000. Auditing my own records now. Owner Care was incorrect  on  the  contract   where my  cancelled points should have been returned to.


----------



## bnoble

It might be worth remembering that anonymous posts aren't necessarily without their own agendas. I'm not saying I disagree with the advice---I think it is probably sound---but I'm also not sure I'd take such a post 100% at face value.


----------



## Ty1on

The truth always lies somewhere between the PR department and the disgruntled.


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> It might be worth remembering that anonymous posts aren't necessarily without their own agendas. I'm not saying I disagree with the advice---I think it is probably sound---but I'm also not sure I'd take such a post 100% at face value.



Even if this guy is really on the inside it is important to remember that very few employees in a large organization know everything. And no one ever posts anything like this without an agenda of their own

That doesn't mean anything in the post is untrue only that it is I'm sure, incomplete


----------



## Ty1on

I would guess it's a mixture of fact and conjecture.

(Conjecture can turn out true)


----------



## johnstonga

*Has Anyone Been "Set Free" yet*

*Has any Frozen Account Holder been "Set Free" Yet?

Based on the last generic email .... there was an implication that most Account Holders would be Unfrozen this week.

My call to the special phone number was, eventually, answered ... but the nice person on other end of the line professed to know less than I did ---- although she did know there'd been a lot of owner calls earlier in the year, particularly when big chunks of points were disappearing from people's accounts.

So will we be unfrozen this week .... or will there be a loosening of the Freeze .... or will the innocent continue to be punished?

Does anyone have any update?

Thanks*


----------



## ronparise

johnstonga said:


> *Has any Frozen Account Holder been "Set Free" Yet?
> 
> Based on the last generic email .... there was an implication that most Account Holders would be Unfrozen this week.
> 
> My call to the special phone number was, eventually, answered ... but the nice person on other end of the line professed to know less than I did ---- although she did know there'd been a lot of owner calls earlier in the year, particularly when big chunks of points were disappearing from people's accounts.
> 
> So will we be unfrozen this week .... or will there be a loosening of the Freeze .... or will the innocent continue to be punished?
> 
> Does anyone have any update?
> 
> Thanks*



There was no such implication

What it says was to expect an update in 3 to 5 days

It's been 3 days. I wouldn't expect anything until Friday. And even then I wouldn't expect any more than an update


----------



## bogey21

This thread is worth the price of admission.  I'm not a Wyndham owner, nonetheless I can't wait to see how this plays out.

George


----------



## cayman01

*Humph.......*

Personally,  I don't feel Wyndham is any closer to solving the mystery points problem than they were when this started. If they are they are not doing a whole lot to straighten things out. I also think they are looking to make life miserable for the Megarenters out there. So I wouldn't expect much in the update. I think the only people that might get released are accounts that have been audited and every single point has been properly accounted for. This is just speculation on my part. I have no solid evidence for or against my theory.


----------



## tugger2020

*Lawsuit*

Has someone or a group actually filed a lawsuit already?


----------



## SueDonJ

tugger2020 said:


> Has someone or a group actually filed a lawsuit already?



It's a little early to go to that extreme, although definitely not too early to speak with a qualified attorney to see if there's something that can be done to force Wyndham to action.  At the least a letter from a qualified attorney to Wyndham on your behalf will let them know that you intend to protect your ownership rights.


----------



## SueDonJ

It's purely curiosity that makes me ask - are the owners of suspended accounts able to use confirmed reservations during this suspension?  I think I understand that you're not able to do anything new in your accounts, but I'm wondering what's happening with pending items?


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> It's a little early to go to that extreme, although definitely not too early to speak with a qualified attorney to see if there's something that can be done to force Wyndham to action.  At the least a letter from a qualified attorney to Wyndham on your behalf will let them know that you intend to protect your ownership rights.



What law school did you graduate from that qualifies you to give such advice?

It's not to early to file if my attorney and I decide it's not to early to file


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> It's purely curiosity that makes me ask - are the owners of suspended accounts able to use confirmed reservations during this suspension?  I think I understand that you're not able to do anything new in your accounts, but I'm wondering what's happening with pending items?



Yes I think some one posted  a copy of the relevant email somewhere oi the last 400 posts


----------



## famy27

tugger2020 said:


> Has someone or a group actually filed a lawsuit already?



I haven't seen any yet, and I've been watching pretty closely. If one is filed in an obscure state court forum, I probably won't see it. I'll report back if anything pops up.


----------



## SueDonJ

ronparise said:


> What law school did you graduate from that qualifies you to give such advice?
> 
> It's not to early to file if my attorney and I decide it's not to early to file



If you don't know exactly what Wyndham is doing and why they're doing whatever they're doing, on what basis would a lawsuit be filed?  Just because your account is suspended?  At this point a simple inquiry from a lawyer is more likely to get you the answers you need in order to decide what to do next, because a lawsuit that puts Wyndham in an adversarial position will automatically shut down all helpful communication while an inquiry might lead to helpful answers.

I don't understand the people who invariably say that involving lawyers only serves one purpose, to put money into the lawyers' pockets.  But neither do I understand why anyone would be willing to incur the expenses involved in filing a lawsuit when there aren't enough details to know if a lawsuit will do any good!  If you want to take the risk of wasting your money, have at it.  I'm just saying I'd be looking to Wyndham more for transparency than recovery at this early point, and I'm fairly sure a qualified attorney - one who doesn't dabble in spurious lawsuits to make bank - would help in that regard.


----------



## Ty1on

SueDonJ said:


> It's a little early to go to that extreme, although definitely not too early to speak with a qualified attorney to see if there's something that can be done to force Wyndham to action.  At the least a letter from a qualified attorney to Wyndham on your behalf will let them know that you intend to protect your ownership rights.



It's not to early to sue for an injunction.  The point of an injunction is to stop the accumulating damage before it becomes irreversible.  My opinion, I'm no lawyer.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ty1on said:


> It's not to early to sue for an injunction.  The point of an injunction is to stop the accumulating damage before it becomes irreversible.  My opinion, I'm no lawyer.



Me neither although I have worked for several whose field is real estate.  That's why I've been advising that these owners should be seeking out qualified attorneys and following their lead.  If they suggest filing an injunction to try to get the suspended accounts released while Wyndham does its thing and the owners/attorneys try to figure out if a lawsuit alleging damages is warranted, all well and good.  But if an attorney is at this point saying, "file suit against them!" based only on the few details that seem to have been shared so far, I'd get a second opinion.


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> If you don't know exactly what Wyndham is doing and why they're doing whatever they're doing, on what basis would a lawsuit be filed?  Just because your account is suspended?  At this point a simple inquiry from a lawyer is more likely to get you the answers you need in order to decide what to do next, because a lawsuit that puts Wyndham in an adversarial position will automatically shut down all helpful communication while an inquiry might lead to helpful answers.
> 
> I don't understand the people who invariably say that involving lawyers only serves one purpose, to put money into the lawyers' pockets.  But neither do I understand why anyone would be willing to incur the expenses involved in filing a lawsuit when there aren't enough details to know if a lawsuit will do any good!  If you want to take the risk of wasting your money, have at it.  I'm just saying I'd be looking to Wyndham more for transparency than recovery at this early point, and I'm fairly sure a qualified attorney - one who doesn't dabble in spurious lawsuits to make bank - would help in that regard.



i don't know about everyone but I can speak to my own situation and I know what's happening.  

The issue for most  however is the not knowing. And there is the school of thought that the best defence is a good  offence

I prefer a Mohamad Ali "rope-a-dope" approach and wait for the other side to throw their best punch. 

So I'm not going to presume to give advice in this regard. But I appreciate yours


----------



## Braindead

Question for Ron. How many have their accounts frozen that you are aware of ? If you don't want to give exact number I understand. Over under 25 or 50 or even more 75 ? I wonder if there's enough of you to qualify for class action suit? If you have to proceed forward as individuals it will get costly quick.


----------



## am1

Well over 100 is my guess.  

How many different owners would be less.


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Question for Ron. How many have their accounts frozen that you are aware of ? If you don't want to give exact number I understand. Over under 25 or 50 or even more 75 ? I wonder if there's enough of you to qualify for class action suit? If you have to proceed forward as individuals it will get costly quick.



Don't ask me



I mean there is no "Association of Suspended Owners" to consult. Other than the folks that have posted here  i know of maybe 4 others but some of them may be the folks that created new identities for this discussion


And now a general comment not directed to braindead  

As I told someone that sent me a pm;  I understand the fascination. Most  of you here are watching a train wreck and it's hard not to stare. But please understand people are dying here; have a little respect



And I'm not interested in hearing how I only have myself and my greed to blame. I already know that and I don't need your judgement or a kick in the ribs while I'm  down


----------



## Tia

Not Ron but maybe Wyndham would be willing to give you that answer  , na probably not. Wyndham isn't going to be helpful to anything they see as not being beneficial to their bottom line, they hold all the cards. Would Wyndham try and bend the rules in their favor, my experience is yes. 



Braindead said:


> Question for Ron. How many have their accounts frozen that you are aware of ? If you don't want to give exact number I understand. Over under 25 or 50 or even more 75 ? I wonder if there's enough of you to qualify for class action suit? If you have to proceed forward as individuals it will get costly quick.


----------



## SueDonJ

ronparise said:


> Don't ask me
> 
> And now a general comment not directed to braindead
> 
> I mean there is no "Association of Suspended Owners" to consult. Other than the folks that have posted here  i know of maybe 4 others but some of them may be the folks that created new identities for this discussion
> 
> As I told someone that sent me a pm;  I understand the fascination. Most  of you here are watching a train wreck and it's hard not to stare. But please understand people are dying here; have a little respect
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not interested in hearing how I only have myself and my greed to blame. I already know that and I don't need your judgement or a kick in the ribs while I'm  down



I'm sorry you feel as though some of us are only here to witness carnage.  I can only speak for myself - I'm here for the same reason that I closely watch any TUG threads that deal with timeshare developers/managers being heavy-handed in protecting their rights, sometimes to the detriment of owners/members.  The usages being talked about here, i.e. banking/pooling points, renting ownerships, taking advantage of discounted stays, etc, aren't unique to Wyndham (although of course each company might transact them in unique ways.)  The way one company chooses to limit owners/members rights and/or usage can be educational for owners/members of any other system.

Personally, I hope that you and any other Wyndham owners aren't reading disrespect or blame in my posts; neither is intended.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry you feel as though some of us are only here to witness carnage.  I can only speak for myself - I'm here for the same reason that I closely watch any TUG threads that deal with timeshare developers/managers being heavy-handed in protecting their rights, sometimes to the detriment of owners/members.  The usages being talked about here, i.e. banking/pooling points, renting ownerships, taking advantage of discounted stays, etc, aren't unique to Wyndham (although of course each company might transact them in unique ways.)  The way one company chooses to limit owners/members rights and/or usage can be educational for owners/members of any other system.
> 
> Personally, I hope that you and any other Wyndham owners aren't reading disrespect or blame in my posts; neither is intended.



Your thoughts/opinions are very much appreciated.  A voice of reason, I always respect your opinion.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

They called us to get information (our lawyer/OC call). They are not interested in giving any information. That's been my one and only communication with them other than the "form letters" it seems everyone has gotten.

They are not responding to any requests for information.  The only thing they've provided is a list of future reservations.  I suspect so we can be responsible for not cancelling something or putting on guest confirmations to avoid duplicate reservations (if we are within 15 days).  

They aren't trying to be nice at all. If so, they wouldn't do silly things like charge $129 for the GC because we have to call.  Or not allow an upgrade to an existing reservation. Trivial, when you look at the big picture, but things like that tell me they are treating us as guilty until proven otherwise.  

My gut feeling is they don't have their arms around this. The system still isn't working correctly, as those who cancel can attest to (points don't return where they should).  If that's not working correctly then neither are other things. 

I have very low confidence they understand completely what the issues are let alone how to fix them. 

I also don't think it's targeted to mega renters, although by the witch hunt criteria, many got caught in that net.  If they were, why would they only cancel some of their accounts. Why would they assist them (VC's) in transferring reservations from a suspended account to a non-suspended account? I think there are non mega renters affected as well. 

My concern is that they are trying to justify making us responsible for things they were fully aware of (or should have been). 

We are their best resource, those more savvy with the system. I wish they would talk to us. We could help them.

There is safety in numbers.  We do need a 'Association of Suspended Owners' group.   TUG, any ideas/suggestions on how we can do that?


----------



## rickandcindy23

> As I told someone that sent me a pm; I understand the fascination. Most of you here are watching a train wreck and it's hard not to stare. But please understand people are dying here; have a little respect



I agree.  I have not had my account suspended, but I am waiting for it.  I am very sorry others are going through this, and I wish you all well.  

We have had so many changes over the last 9 years.  Loss of free guest certificates years ago, and we can no longer rent as many points from Wyndham as we once did.  Plus, we no longer get the $4/1,000 pts rental benefit we once had.  All of those items have been diminished, literally vanished before our eyes.  It hurts.


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> Don't ask me
> 
> And now a general comment not directed to braindead
> 
> I mean there is no "Association of Suspended Owners" to consult. Other than the folks that have posted here  i know of maybe 4 others but some of them may be the folks that created new identities for this discussion
> 
> As I told someone that sent me a pm;  I understand the fascination. Most  of you here are watching a train wreck and it's hard not to stare. But please understand people are dying here; have a little respect
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not interested in hearing how I only have myself and my greed to blame. I already know that and I don't need your judgement or a kick in the ribs while I'm  down



I personally feel for all of you who are frozen. We can disagree on other things but the way Wyndham has handled this and have treated all of you is a DISCRACE!!!    Ron you have always put yourself out there to help everyone!!      If there's a group of people that don't need the help of this site it would be the magarenters!!   As far as I'm concerned all of you only come here to help the rest of us and probably even get a good laugh sometimes at my Braindead post.  No one should single you or anyone else out to attack and I hope none of you think I have. If you do feel I have I apologize!!      Ron I simply through the question out there to you assuming a lot had contacted you outside of doing it here.  I know you would be the first I would contact if I was frozen. From post here some that are frozen are just your average owners.  If anyone has sent you negative PMs I would put them with Wyndham a DISGRACE !!! Good Luck to all of you frozen


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry you feel as though some of us are only here to witness carnage.  I can only speak for myself - I'm here for the same reason that I closely watch any TUG threads that deal with timeshare developers/managers being heavy-handed in protecting their rights, sometimes to the detriment of owners/members.  The usages being talked about here, i.e. banking/pooling points, renting ownerships, taking advantage of discounted stays, etc, aren't unique to Wyndham (although of course each company might transact them in unique ways.)  The way one company chooses to limit owners/members rights and/or usage can be educational for owners/members of any other system.
> 
> Personally, I hope that you and any other Wyndham owners aren't reading disrespect or blame in my posts; neither is intended.



My comment wasnt directed at anyone in particular. and was meant to be proactive rather than reactive.  But I realize I may have been doing what we have accused our friends at Wyndham of doing, ie "shoot first and ask questions later"  I didnt mean to shoot you

sorry, please dont take it personally


----------



## am1

I cancelled a few 2017 reservations as a test to see where they would go back to and they are still going back to 2019 regular use year points instead of credit pool points.  So that problem is still out there 3 weeks later.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

am1 said:


> I cancelled a few 2017 reservations as a test to see where they would go back to and they are still going back to 2019 regular use year points instead of credit pool points.  So that problem is still out there 3 weeks later.




Same here.  Cancelled a few reservations, can't tell where the points go until the next day.  VC's can't tell either.  And I have points in use years I don't have. For sure points returned as regular points that should be credit pooled. Same-o, same-o.


----------



## bnoble

> how I only have myself and my greed to blame.


I don't understand this, not even a little.

We are all greedy, if by "greedy" one means "self-interested." Granted, I'm not much of a renter---I think I've rented all of two reservations in the nearly ten years I've owned. But, I'm in this for great vacations for my family. I don't particularly care if my vacations come at the expense of someone else---and, frankly, I know they do, because I bought all of my timeshares resale, so at least the original owners of my deeds are subsidizing my vacations. 

If I want a hard-to-get reservation (e.g. Old Town Alexandria for Easter/Cherry Blossom) you can bet I will use everything I know to secure that reservation before someone else can. Likewise, I'm happy to exploit inefficiencies in the exchange systems to secure very high-value weeks for much lower costs (e.g. a 3BR Penthouse at HGVC Lagoon last summer for about 1/3 of MFs)

Given that, I can't begrudge anyone else their efforts in learning the various systems, understanding their corner cases, and using them to their best advantage. If that's for "profit" rather than "vacation" it is no less valid.


----------



## jjmanthei05

ronparise said:


> Don't ask me
> 
> 
> 
> I mean there is no "Association of Suspended Owners" to consult. Other than the folks that have posted here  i know of maybe 4 others but some of them may be the folks that created new identities for this discussion
> 
> 
> And now a general comment not directed to braindead
> 
> As I told someone that sent me a pm;  I understand the fascination. Most  of you here are watching a train wreck and it's hard not to stare. But please understand people are dying here; have a little respect
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not interested in hearing how I only have myself and my greed to blame. I already know that and I don't need your judgement or a kick in the ribs while I'm  down



Ron,

The vast majority of us are with you. Even if we aren't affected by the current situation, that doesn't mean that Wyndham won't decide to go after something else that affects other people on here. There needs to be checks and balances and hopefully there will be some with the current situation. 

This famous poem seems very fitting for this situation... 



			
				MARTIN NIEMÖLLER said:
			
		

> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Socialist.
> 
> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
> 
> Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Jew.
> 
> Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


----------



## cayman01

*Theory*

I'm beginning to think Wyndham is using one problem to deal with another. I find it hard to believe that a company this large with the resources it has cannot figure out the problem with their software. So I began to think it through a bit. Maybe they DO know how to fix this, but are using the situation to punish the Megarenters out there. You think Ron, BigRob and the others here a suffering? how do you think the guys over at WynpointVIP are sleeping these days?

 I think Wyndham is going to put the hammer to the big renters. They have no problem with the guy who wants to rent out a couple reservations to cover some of his maintenance fees, but they are not going to put up with the big renters anymore. They are going to tighten the credit pooling , GC's, and anything else that makes large volume renting attractive. They want those rental dollars coming to them. They want WynpointVIP out of business as well as Megarenters. And I think they are going to let the suspensions ride for awhile, until there is enough negative feedback against Wyndham to end them.

 Sad to say I believe the courts are the only way this gets settled fairly. The only thing I can see that an owner might have done wrong is KNOWINGLY using points that were improperly put into their account by Wyndham. Good luck proving that. On the other hand, I can see a court siding for the owners for loss of use. Wyndham is walking a fine line. I think the suspended owners need to band together and push back. Wyndham has far more to lose in this down the road than the owners do.


----------



## Bigrob

Tonight was a good example of how Wyndham is currently "serving" the suspended owners.

For those that don't know; if you have a suspended account, you can't do any online transactions. You can view points but not use them; after hours you can view your reservations, but during the hours the reservation system is open, you can't view your reservations.

Wyndham has set up a "special" line for owners with suspended accounts to call in to for needed transactions such as cancellations or adding guest confirmations. Given that these are the only two types of transactions currently allowed, one would think that calling for those transactions might actually be faster than calling the regular line.

One would be wrong to think that. I held for 30 minutes, starting just after 7:00 PM. After 30 minutes, the call automatically rolled over to the answering machine stating that a case manager would call me back within 48 hours. (That is not particularly helpful if you have a reservation entering the 15-day window). So I left my message and immediately called back. Still on hold.

From the other line, I call the VIP line and that line is answered within 4-5 minutes... not great, but acceptable. I am able to cancel the reservation I needed to cancel, and have provided the information required for the guest confirmation. However, he checks with his supervisor and finds he is not allowed to add the guest confirmation. It is now after 8:00 PM and I have no recourse to add the guest confirmation tonight, since I eventually gave up holding the other line once it seemed everything would be handled via the VIP line. This has now taken over an hour... something I could do online myself in less than a minute.

I have had to call the "special" number several times, and each time I end up speaking to "Ray," an owner care representative. Is it possible they only have one person handling the calls from all the suspended account owners?

Now consider the fact that there is additional expense in adding an additional number, providing additional training to the 1-2 reps that are apparently handling the calls alone, the call routing, the owner care representatives' time, etc. - all funded out of YOUR club wyndham plus dues. Is that what you want to be spending your club wyndham fees on? To support Wyndham's witch hunt and owner coercion/extortion?

People think it's only affecting the suspended owners. It's not. It's impacting everyone... when Wyndham takes actions that dramatically increase call center demand - that they pay themselves for out of YOUR club wyndham plus dues (and they DO pay themselves a profit as well as cost on call center operations) - you ALL pay for it... while they make more profit. 

I think I'll take the opposite action that am1 recommended. Seems Wyndham is a strong buy... they have a well-oiled machine to generate endless profits with no checks and balances as they continue to operate with impunity despite the obvious Organizational Conflicts of Interest that exist in the various roles they hold.


----------



## jebloomquist

Braindead said:


> How many have their accounts frozen that you are aware of ? If you don't want to give exact number I understand. Over under 25 or 50 or even more 75 ? I wonder if there's enough of you to qualify for class action suit? If you have to proceed forward as individuals it will get costly quick.



I don't think that every mega-renter has been suspended. My daughter (a co-owner in my account) wanted to reserve a 2 bedroom in a fairly well reserved resort, but still very hot in the summer and there are many 2 bedroom units in the resort. At the 10 month date, I was online at 7:00 and there were none available. Either 1) there are quite a few owners using ARP, 2) many owners were also on at 7:00, or 3) either the HOA or Wyndham are not making the units available.

If 1 & 2 are the answer, okay. If my third option is the case, we may have other concerns.

Jim


----------



## rhonda

bnoble said:


> I don't understand this, not even a little.
> 
> We are all greedy, if by "greedy" one means "self-interested." Granted, I'm not much of a renter---I think I've rented all of two reservations in the nearly ten years I've owned. But, I'm in this for great vacations for my family. I don't particularly care if my vacations come at the expense of someone else---and, frankly, I know they do, because I bought all of my timeshares resale, so at least the original owners of my deeds are subsidizing my vacations.
> 
> If I want a hard-to-get reservation (e.g. Old Town Alexandria for Easter/Cherry Blossom) you can bet I will use everything I know to secure that reservation before someone else can. Likewise, I'm happy to exploit inefficiencies in the exchange systems to secure very high-value weeks for much lower costs (e.g. a 3BR Penthouse at HGVC Lagoon last summer for about 1/3 of MFs)
> 
> Given that, I can't begrudge anyone else their efforts in learning the various systems, understanding their corner cases, and using them to their best advantage. If that's for "profit" rather than "vacation" it is no less valid.


LIKE  -- LIKE -- LIKE!

(Just wishing this forum had a simple [Like] button!)


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*No response from AcctInfo*



Bigrob said:


> Wyndham has set up a "special" line for owners with suspended accounts to call in to for needed transactions such as cancellations or adding guest confirmations.



Bigrob, would you tell me what the special number is?  My account has now been locked out for a full 4 weeks as of today.  They are not answering my requests for updates and have not even sent me any of the form letters some of you have been received.

In most matters I would be the last person to suggest legal action is the best course but I am wondering now if it might not be the only course.  I live in CA and do not feel confident finding a Florida attorney.  When the time comes that others agree to seek legal representation I suggest banding together to hopefully reduce the expenses compared to individual cases.

Best Regards to all,
DEBrink


----------



## Bigrob

debrinkleyusa said:


> bigrob, would you tell me what the special number is?  My account has now been locked out for a full 4 weeks as of today.  They are not answering my requests for updates and have not even sent me any of the form letters some of you have been received.
> 
> In most matters i would be the last person to suggest legal action is the best course but i am wondering now if it might not be the only course.  I live in ca and do not feel confident finding a florida attorney.  When the time comes that others agree to seek legal representation i suggest banding together to hopefully reduce the expenses compared to individual cases.
> 
> Best regards to all,
> debrink



877-298-2027.


----------



## OutSkiing

jebloomquist said:


> I don't think that every mega-renter has been suspended. My daughter (a co-owner in my account) wanted to reserve a 2 bedroom in a fairly well reserved resort, but still very hot in the summer and there are many 2 bedroom units in the resort. At the 10 month date, I was online at 7:00 and there were none available. Either 1) there are quite a few owners using ARP, 2) many owners were also on at 7:00, or 3) either the HOA or Wyndham are not making the units available.
> 
> If 1 & 2 are the answer, okay. If my third option is the case, we may have other concerns.
> 
> Jim




Maybe this is a test to see if there is enough demand to snap up all the units without megarenters.

I dont really think that .. I still believe the earlier conclusion that it is about accounts with > 4x points available due to pooling / carry forward and maybe some stripping. The collective Wyndham probably was too 'dumb' to figure it out before the audit.

Doesn't seem like Wyndham has a legal leg to stand on in tying up the points this long. Those monthly maintenence fee bills have to hurt if not enough revenue.

Bob


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*GOD created the World in 7 days / Wyndham takes more than a month to ADD UP POINTS*



debrinkleyusa said:


> Bigrob, would you tell me what the special number is?  My account has now been locked out for a full 4 weeks as of today.  They are not answering my requests for updates and have not even sent me any of the form letters some of you have been received.
> 
> In most matters I would be the last person to suggest legal action is the best course but I am wondering now if it might not be the only course.  I live in CA and do not feel confident finding a Florida attorney.  When the time comes that others agree to seek legal representation I suggest banding together to hopefully reduce the expenses compared to individual cases.
> 
> Best Regards to all,
> DEBrink


********
< note - my comment is a metaphor only>
********


As per my title - The World in 7 days -vs-Wyndham taking  a month (+) to add up points.

Wyndham may THINK they are playing GOD 
but taking a month to add up points shows  and says -- a lot .  

********
Deb , Ron P , BigRob , AM1 , and everyone else - hang in there 

.


----------



## Jan M.

OutSkiing said:


> Maybe this is a test to see if there is enough demand to snap up all the units without megarenters.
> 
> I dont really think that .. I still believe the earlier conclusion that it is about accounts with > 4x points available due to pooling / carry forward and maybe some stripping. The collective Wyndham probably was too 'dumb' to figure it out before the audit.
> 
> Doesn't seem like Wyndham has a legal leg to stand on in tying up the points this long. Those monthly maintenence fee bills have to hurt if not enough revenue.
> 
> Bob



I'm really glad that you don't believe that the lack of availability is due to mega renters. The the lack of availability is because Wyndham is snapping up the available inventory not owners. And whoever posted that they are only doing this within a 30 day window is full of b.s. I've been watching resorts very closely since earlier this year when we were planning a trip and I started noticing there was little to absolutely no availability at a number of resorts as much as 60-90 days out. 

We live in Florida and I was thinking of heading up to Orlando for a few days next month. I only wanted the weekdays not the weekends so you wouldn't think it would be hard to find what I was looking for but nothing has been available and I have been checking for a couple of weeks now. Just a few minutes ago for the heck of it I decided to look on Expedia and sure enough not only are there one bedroom units available but also two bedroom units at Bonnet Creek for the dates I was trying to find. If you want to verify this I used the dates October 16--21 for 5 nights. If I don't mind waiting until it gets within the 15 day cancellation window I'm sure I can find something but that isn't the point. 

Wyndham is doing this, not the mega renters, the businesses who manage people's accounts or the VIP owners with their discounts and free upgrades!

Wyndham isn't only hurting the owners that have their accounts frozen. I don't know if this is just by coincidence two separate issues or part of one big master plan to drive the competition for their Ovation and Extra Holidays programs out of business. If it looks like a duck, has feathers, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and lays eggs then what are the chances it isn't a duck?

Ron Parisse many of us who are following this thread are not judging or lookey loos but are smart enough to be concerned about the lack of transparency, the precedents this sets and any changes that Wyndham will make that are supposedly for "our benefit."


----------



## presley

Jan M. said:


> Ron Parisse many of us who are following this thread are not judging or lookey loos but are smart enough to be concerned about the lack of transparency, the precedents this sets and any changes that Wyndham will make that are supposedly for "our benefit."



I'm following along for the train wreck, but not because I think the owners are the train wreck. I think it's just one more Wyndham major mess up. I thought as low as I could about them before. So, this hasn't changed my opinion on them, but I am still following along because I think HGVC likes to copy the dumb stuff that Wyndham does.


----------



## bobdaz

has anyone heard from wyndham about an update I called this morning to the
 1-877-298-2027 and they had no further info, just that we could cancel reservation or add guest confirmation up until Sept 30


----------



## rickandcindy23

I wonder how many people buying Wyndham points today will see this thread with a Google search and will rescind.  

We need Wyndham to be a viable, stable company, but it's Wyndham who promises the moon and the stars, and when people do what the salespeople suggest, Wyndham puts new rules and limits on what the salesperson promised.  It's really good to sell something and say, "What, wait a minute, maybe we should take those benefits away."  

The salespeople totally denied the guest fees for Platinum members during a sales presentation.  He said it was unlimited.  I said, "No, it's not."  Don't lie.  It's better not to lie.  

I still have the wonderful CD from Fairfield/Wyndham, talking up the benefits for Platinum members.  I should watch it to see how much we have really lost over nine years, because you know what?  We almost all acquiesce.  Some people did get lawyers and sued when unlimited guest certificates were taken away.  I didn't want to jump on the bandwagon back then.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Sep 30 date*



bobdaz said:


> has anyone heard from wyndham about an update I called this morning to the
> 1-877-298-2027 and they had no further info, just that we could cancel reservation or add guest confirmation up until Sept 30



I think that Sep 30 date might actually be a target for Wyndham.  Many of us with frozen accounts have until that date to credit pool this year's points to avoid having them expire at the end of the year.  Maybe it is Wyndham's strategy to recoup a mega amount of points by simply delaying their audits.  

One thing that is not broke is their billing system.  They continue to collect my maintenance fees regardless of whether I am able to use the points.

D.B.


----------



## OutSkiing

Jan M. said:


> . If you want to verify this I used the dates October 16--21 for 5 nights. If I don't mind waiting until it gets within the 15 day cancellation window I'm sure I can find something but that isn't the point.
> "



Sure enough I see it out on Expedia as Wyndham advertized and not in our inventory on the resort site.

But condider this .. What if those units are Wyndham owned ... Meaning they took back a default or Ovations? They would not have their maintenance fees covered unless they rent them out.  They are not obligated to put it in our inventory pool while paying maintenance.

Bob


----------



## raygo123

OutSkiing said:


> Sure enough I see it out on Expedia as Wyndham advertized and not in our inventory on the resort site.
> 
> But condider this .. What if those units are Wyndham owned ... Meaning they took back a default or Ovations? They would not have their maintenance fees covered unless they rent them out.  They are not obligated to put it in our inventory pool while paying maintenance.
> 
> Bob


Or they take from trust points not sold yet and take the cream of the crop before we  geta have at it?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jan M.

OutSkiing said:


> Sure enough I see it out on Expedia as Wyndham advertized and not in our inventory on the resort site.
> 
> But condider this .. What if those units are Wyndham owned ... Meaning they took back a default or Ovations? They would not have their maintenance fees covered unless they rent them out.  They are not obligated to put it in our inventory pool while paying maintenance.
> 
> Bob



Do you realize how little sense what you're saying makes? Why should any of us, particularly those of us who bought all of our points directly from Wyndham, be okay with spending what we've spent to own and year single year afterwards paying our maintenance fees while they sell the reservations we cannot get? Why is is fair for them to skim off the top of the inventory and leave us to compete for what is left? Is this what we are all paying them to do? Are they playing by same rules that they instituted for us, no more than x number of reservations or x% of the available inventory at a resort?

So you think it is perfectly fine for them to sell us a product and then limit our ability to use it because they have to make even more money at our expense?


----------



## Roger830

OutSkiing said:


> they took back a default or Ovations? They would not have their maintenance fees covered unless they rent them out.  They are not obligated to put it in our inventory pool while paying maintenance.
> 
> Bob



This points out a big flaw in the udi system.

Wyndham has as much right to the prime weeks as any member if they own those contracts. Who has the best access? Did you ever get a prime seat at a popular concert or play?


----------



## OutSkiing

Jan M. said:


> So you think it is perfectly fine for them to sell us a product and then limit our ability to use it because they have to make even more money at our expense?


If they are using points that you or I or anyone bought it is NOT ok but if thry took my points back through Ovations its no different that If I give mine  away to you. You would be entitled to reserve them and rent them out.  Don't they have to pay the HOA maintenance fees on those points? They are no different than a megarenter in this one regard.

I would think there should be rigerous audits by the accountsnts to be sure they don't use even one point of the points booked as sold.

If they are cheating by using our ownership I am in agreement that would be breaking the law.

Bob


----------



## vacationhopeful

Would love to see Wyndham, the points owner, having to comply with no overlapping reservations rule ... without PAYING the trust the $99/129 Guest Certificate fee.


----------



## bnoble

Regarding whether Wyn is playing by "the rules" or not, they are allowed to take inventory at the 60 day mark. And, I don't believe there is any limit to this "breakage" inventory they can withdraw.

It is possible that Wyn is playing outside even this very generous boundary. If you believe they are doing so, you can either live with it or sell. I don't see much in the way of a third option.


----------



## whitewater

bnoble said:


> I don't understand this, not even a little.
> 
> We are all greedy, if by "greedy" one means "self-interested." Granted, I'm not much of a renter---I think I've rented all of two reservations in the nearly ten years I've owned. But, I'm in this for great vacations for my family. I don't particularly care if my vacations come at the expense of someone else---and, frankly, I know they do, because I bought all of my timeshares resale, so at least the original owners of my deeds are subsidizing my vacations.
> 
> If I want a hard-to-get reservation (e.g. Old Town Alexandria for Easter/Cherry Blossom) you can bet I will use everything I know to secure that reservation before someone else can. Likewise, I'm happy to exploit inefficiencies in the exchange systems to secure very high-value weeks for much lower costs (e.g. a 3BR Penthouse at HGVC Lagoon last summer for about 1/3 of MFs)
> 
> Given that, I can't begrudge anyone else their efforts in learning the various systems, understanding their corner cases, and using them to their best advantage. If that's for "profit" rather than "vacation" it is no less valid.



I love how some in the thread have vilified the "mega-renters" (of which I am not).   Funny thing is if there were no mega renters than I would have the same tough time getting units.  Only difference is that I would not know who to direct my frustration to....     If not mega-renters its just a sea of people like me trying to spend time on vacation with my family.  Glad some can make money doing it.  I don't see how anyone is getting rich (except wyndham) in the grand scheme.  

Wyndham sells points and desirable weeks/locations drive whats available.  Its simple supply and demand using the wyndham currency we all signed up for.  

My thought is rules are rules (which I researched before purchasing resale) and I'm fine with said rules so far.  I've been able to get units at the resorts I want 10 months or less.  

Sucks that its taking so long to account for all the happenings +/-.  Hope all sorts out soon for those affected.


----------



## Slinger

rickandcindy23 said:


> I wonder how many people buying Wyndham points today will see this thread with a Google search and will rescind.



I am a new Wyndham owner. Don't have a member number yet. With 1.6mm points already deeded to me and headed my way, I am admittedly PANICKED. I sure do hope that those being held hostage take some form of legal action to get the ball rolling again. Soon. I'd hate to somehow end up in the same situation and not be able to book a thing!


----------



## Marathoner

One item that I found very strange is that Wyndham lawyers were on the phone with the owners during the calls while the owners did not have legal counsel.  I am not a lawyer but I work for a large company and have been in disputes which required counsel.  The lawyers for my company would not get on calls with me and the other party if the other party did not have legal counsel even though we were only at the stage of discussing the issue.

After reading through this thread, I asked a lawyer today at my company (not timeshare-related) whether he would hypothetically get into a call with another party who did not have legal counsel.  He said no.  I then asked if he would get on a call if the other party replied by saying they did not need counsel whether he would listen onto a call.  He still said, probably not.

Bottom line is that my corporate lawyer said that it is a matter of ethics.  Non-lawyers don't understand the law and their legal rights.  The other party can complain that the lawyer unfairly used the other party's lack of knowledge to gain an advantage over the situation and the lawyer can be held accountable.  

It appears to me that people on this forum can also complain about Wyndham lawyers who are on the call to the appropriate greviance committees.


----------



## kaljor

The first post on this topic was on August 24. Wednesday will be 1 month. I’m a reasonable person, and I don’t yell “class action lawsuit” every time a big company tries to throw their weight around.  I also understand that when a big company becomes aggressive toward their customers, it doesn’t pay to fight them tooth and nail.  Reasonable back and forth communication is usually more successful.  

In this case, after 1 month, I would start becoming more assertive.  I’ve read every post in this thread and I think I understand what’s happening pretty clearly.  I think Wyndham has lost track of its own points system.  Their software doesn’t allow them to track points awarded, points cancelled, points credit pooled, points borrowed from a future year (which may also be cancelled) and other points scenarios that I don’t understand. 

So they decided to suspend a bunch of accounts and I surmise they are asking some points owners to explain how they arrived at their current points balance. It’s OK to me if they ask some contract holders to explain their current balances, but it’s absolutely NOT OK  for them to suspend X amount of owners from using their legitimate Wyndham accounts to book vacations which they have contracted for and have paid all their fees for.

As a reasonable person, if Wyndham thinks it has discovered a problem, I would cut them some slack to investigate it.  I wouldn’t like it, but I would.  But how much slack?  Wednesday will be one month.  What if this takes another month?  What if it takes another two months?  You see where I’m going.

I’m not a lawyer, and I’m not a Wyndham owner.  I was about to buy a resale contract on e-Bay right when this thread began, but I rethought that immediately.  It’s not that I think I would be affected, after all it was just one small contract, but am I willing to subject myself to this kind of arbitrary and capricious action in the future?  I doubt it. I’m kind of stubborn about protecting my rights and avoiding situations where I might have to go to court to get them enforced.

To wrap this up, if I understand correctly, those of you who have contracts that represent undivided deeded interests actually own property (rights).  Well if I’m a landlord, and I’m uncertain if you paid your rent last month, do I have the right to change the locks on your apartment until I complete my audit?  I don’t think so, and I think that’s a fair analogy.   My conclusion: if this goes to 6 weeks, every owner who lives in Florida and has been affected should see a lawyer and ask about the cost of going to court simply to get an injunction to prevent Wyndham from denying you your right to your property. I don’t have any idea about the cost, but my general knowledge about how the world works leads me to believe that most judges would find it impermissible for Wyndham to do a blanket denial of your rights based on a suspicion only.  I think Wyndham would have to provide some evidence of point fraud, and I believe that their IT systems are incapable of providing that evidence. And if 50 owners filed for this relief in the same week, I presume that Wyndham would have to send their lawyers to 50 different courtrooms to answer. That’s a fairly big burden, you know, kind of like the burden they’ve imposed on you.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I’m really angry on your behalf!


----------



## bogey21

Join one of the "Big Boy" systems and these things happen.  Many years ago when Marriott materially changed their Resale and Rental Programs to my detriment I voted with my feet and sold all 4 of my Marriott Weeks and went with multiple Independent HOA Controlled Resorts.  Part of my reasoning was that if one of them went off the reservation, it would only impact that one Resort not my entire Vacation Experience.  I never regretted this decision.

George


----------



## SueDonJ

bogey21 said:


> Join one of the "Big Boy" systems and these things happen.  Many years ago when Marriott materially changed their Resale and Rental Programs to my detriment I voted with my feet and sold all 4 of my Marriott Weeks and went with multiple Independent HOA Controlled Resorts.  Part of my reasoning was that if one of them went off the reservation, it would only impact that one Resort not my entire Vacation Experience.  I never regretted this decision.
> 
> George



George, this isn't at all in the range of what might be considered normal and can't be dismissed easily with, "these things happen."  I don't ever remember hearing about any timeshare company, "Big Boy" or not, summarily suspending owner accounts on a widespread basis for audit purposes and immediately involving attorneys in their communications.

Respectfully, this is one time when your, "I sold Marriotts and went with independents just so that they couldn't do this to me," doesn't apply.  If asked before this happened, probably none of us would have expected any timeshare company to do what Wyndham is doing to these owners.


----------



## bogey21

That's the problem.  They always come up with the unexpected and most of the time it is for their own benefit.

George


----------



## SueDonJ

bogey21 said:


> That's the problem.  They always come up with the unexpected and most of the time it is for their own benefit.
> 
> George



We'll have to agree to disagree.  This isn't a case of a timeshare company revising the rules across the entire ownership base and leaving owners/members in the unfortunate position of having to relearn how to get the most out of their timeshares and/or decide whether they want to remain as owners.  This is a case of a select group of owners/members having their accounts suspended for an extended period and being told that it's due to a vague "audit" process.  As yet no usage rules have been changed, no new blanket policies have been implemented across the entire network, and there's been no indication that either of those will be a result of this Wyndham action.

Most of us understand that any timeshare companies have the right to suspend accounts when payments are not kept up-to-date, when rules are not followed, when company processes are hacked or otherwise fraudulently compromised.  The reasonable expectation of owners/members is that if/when a company deems it necessary to suspend accounts, the company will have a valid reason for doing so and will be able to articulate that reasoning.  That's not what is happening here.

This is not anywhere near the realm of what Marriott did all those years ago to turn you off, i.e. changing the parameters of the owner rental program that Marriott offers.  Not anywhere close.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Recommendations for a good Orlando lawyer*

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good lawyer in the Orlando area?  I don't know much about legal proceedings but I assume we want a lawyer in Orlando since that is where the Wyndham offices are.

Best Regards,
D.B.


----------



## SueDonJ

debrinkleyusa said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for a good lawyer in the Orlando area?  I don't know much about legal proceedings but I assume we want a lawyer in Orlando since that is where the Wyndham offices are.
> 
> Best Regards,
> D.B.



I would begin with the American Bar Association's Lawyer Referral Directory, searching your resident state and asking there if you need an attorney based where you live or where Wyndham is registered.

And be warned - your post will attract spam and unqualified responses through PM's and/or emails.  Be careful, and good luck.


----------



## wjappraise

Marathoner said:


> One item that I found very strange is that Wyndham lawyers were on the phone with the owners during the calls while the owners did not have legal counsel.  I am not a lawyer but I work for a large company and have been in disputes which required counsel.  The lawyers for my company would not get on calls with me and the other party if the other party did not have legal counsel even though we were only at the stage of discussing the issue.
> 
> After reading through this thread, I asked a lawyer today at my company (not timeshare-related) whether he would hypothetically get into a call with another party who did not have legal counsel.  He said no.  I then asked if he would get on a call if the other party replied by saying they did not need counsel whether he would listen onto a call.  He still said, probably not.
> 
> Bottom line is that my corporate lawyer said that it is a matter of ethics.  Non-lawyers don't understand the law and their legal rights.  The other party can complain that the lawyer unfairly used the other party's lack of knowledge to gain an advantage over the situation and the lawyer can be held accountable.
> 
> It appears to me that people on this forum can also complain about Wyndham lawyers who are on the call to the appropriate greviance committees.




Thank you for sharing that articulate and insightful post.  I, too, am frozen and have reached the boiling point (nice opposite metaphors).  At this point, is an hiring an attorney the only way to proceed?  Cannot the audit process be completed, or at least be ongoing while I have the ability to make and cancel reservations, and add guest names without having to wait on hold?  Why is an attorney on the phone with an owner?  Is this ethical?  

Just needed to vent. . . 

Wes


----------



## bogey21

debrinkleyusa said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for a good lawyer in the Orlando area?  I don't know much about legal proceedings but I assume we want a lawyer in Orlando since that is where the Wyndham offices are.



Understand that I try to avoid hiring lawyers like the plague.  In fact over the 60 years of my adult life I have done so only once in a situation dealing with the forgery of my dead Father's signature.

My advice is to stay cool and see what Wyndham actually does after their audit is complete before you decide if you want to go the legal route or not.  It doesn't make sense to me to start paying legal fees before you know where Wyndham ultimately comes down on this.

George


----------



## Slinger

bogey21 said:


> My advice is to stay cool and see what Wyndham actually does after their audit is complete before you decide if you want to go the legal route or not.
> 
> George



Just a hypothetical.......what of said "audit" never ends? 

September passes. Nothing. 

October passes. Nothing. 

November passes. Nothing. 

At what point do you start the ball rolling to go get that injunction? 

Just a "what-if" to consider. Maybe everyone should pick their own line in the sand of what they each personally feel comfortable with. Then move ahead from that point.


----------



## Roger830

I recall seeing on here a few weeks ago that a couple of members had their access restored. They did not seem to be big players.


----------



## Sandi Bo

I am not aware of anyone being reinstated?  Has anyone that was suspended been reinstated?


----------



## wjappraise

Sandi Bo said:


> I am not aware of anyone being reinstated?  Has anyone that was suspended been reinstated?





No one that I've heard or seen.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roger830

Roger830 said:


> I recall seeing on here a few weeks ago that a couple of members had their access restored. They did not seem to be big players.



It looks like I was mistaken. Post 351 showed two members reporting that they could log in, I assumed that they were previously blocked.


----------



## bestresort

Its time for war:

We need to get organized
we need a plan of attack
we need to squeeze their pocket
we need to publicize

====================================

first response

go to well attended sales presentation and make a scene.
Tell people to run away

do this for every session at bonnet creek
day 2 expand to oceanwalk
day 3 expand to reunion

we have a mole or moles to disrupt every meeting

invite the press

signed los pepes


----------



## bestresort

Suspended payment of maintenence fees

we have lost value, 1 month of my life will never come back 1/12 of our investment has been stolen from us

warrrrrrrrrr!


----------



## bestresort

Whatever validity Wyndham had in imposing the suspensions, they lost with passage of time and lack of communication.

I gave them a month. This BS has to stop and stop now

The special line they set up is a joke.
Direct communication with management is useless.
There is no communication, none 

Do not tolerate this anymore.
I will join any class action lawsuit.

Does anyone know Guido from Brooklyn?


----------



## bestresort

*buy then let them foreclose*

Foreclosures require wyndham to set aside money to cover the default and that impacts quarterly earnings. Heres what was said in the most recent call "Defaults for the quarter were $74 million.

Organize make them lose their azz

Im getting close to throwing in the towel--

id love to sell wyndham back my mega points for what they charge the public

You thinking renting to morons is fun ?  Megarentors are megaowners. Unlike the strippers, they use the product, they pay the guest fees, they pay the maintenance fees, they paid for their points

Is it Oceanfront
I want Oceanfront
My budget is 99 a night for july 4th.
It cost me 2500 for disney tickets, my budget for hotel is only 399.

Even tug has a 100 limit for and last minute request

Id like a 3 bedroom presidential at bonnet creek at christmas for 2 nights for 200


----------



## bestresort

*mega strippers vs mega rentors*



Ty1on said:


>


"finally a developer is doing something about the mega renter issue"

the developer should tar and feather the mega strippers

they are the abusers

a mega rentor is just using the product that he bought..why is that a sin


----------



## ziravan

bestresort said:


> "finally a developer is doing something about the mega renter issue"
> 
> the developer should tar and feather the mega strippers
> 
> they are the abusers
> 
> a mega rentor is just using the product that he bought..why is that a sin



Megarenter vs Megastripper is an ethical distinction that is very specific to your circumstances.

At either side of you, most people would disagree that it's a distinction with a difference.

The megastrippers, in point of fact, consider themselves to be megarenters, exactly the same as you.

Me? I'm on the other side of the equation, a small fry owner not frozen. 

I think the megarenters corner the market at a competitive disadvantage to ordinary users. Megastrippers do nothing to affect me more than megarenters: a distinction without a difference.

Having said that, the rules are the rules. The megarenters (a group that includes megastrippers) playing the game the way they do is within the rules. 

The problem with tarring and feathering megastrippers is that, as a megarenter, you are far too close to the wrong end of the same pitchfork. You guys with frozen accts are far better served sticking together than taking shots at each other.

If I were a frozen account, I'd at least have an atty give a deadline for more info or filing an injunction. An atty drafted letter is a good first start and now overdue.


----------



## bnoble

bestresort said:


> "finally a developer is doing something about the mega renter issue"
> 
> the developer should tar and feather the mega strippers
> 
> they are the abusers
> 
> a mega rentor is just using the product that he bought..why is that a sin



ProTip: Don't post after the third glass of wine. There is nothing wrong with stripping and selling a contract. Someone is still paying the MFs on it. And, no, I am not someone who strips-and-sells, but welcome to my ignore list anyway.


----------



## Fun Times

*Class Action*



WynDeepthroat said:


> The bottom line is that Wyn has failed to maintain accounting procedures for points balances, and rather than admit such are aggressively pursuing the best paying customers. Most Wyn legal battles involve a regretful buyer or an owner upset with loss of privileges. Wyn prevails in most of these. However this is different as fault lies with Wyn and failure to engage due process and fair negotiation to resolve the issue.
> 
> Good luck.



The attorney who called me asked me how I tricked the system to give me more points and when I told him there was no trick that all I ever do is make reservation, cancel and add guest confirmations. He said "we can do this the hard way or easy way and if you are not going to tell me what you did, then I am going to suspend your account for 4 weeks." 
Does this sound like they are trying to find out what their system did wrong?  

This train wreck has costs me much in lost reservations, canceled guest reservations, etc.  

As you all know, the 10 month window that occurred during this past 4 weeks included the highest travel time of the year and we were not able to book anything unless you can book 13 months. 

With all this in mind, I think our damages are growing and they will not even recognize them without legal representation.  
If you have a legal group started to help with this, please contact me.


----------



## Slinger

Fun Times said:


> The attorney who called me asked me how I tricked the system to give me more points and when I told him there was no trick that all I ever do is make reservation, cancel and add guest confirmations. He said "we can do this the hard way or easy way and if you are not going to tell me what you did, then I am going to suspend your account for 4 weeks."
> Does this sound like they are trying to find out what their system did wrong?



Did this conversation actually take place? 

They locked you out for telling the truth? 

Wow.


----------



## wjappraise

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## COAIR005

Fun Times said:


> The attorney who called me asked me how I tricked the system to give me more points and when I told him there was no trick that all I ever do is make reservation, cancel and add guest confirmations. He said "we can do this the hard way or easy way and if you are not going to tell me what you did, then I am going to suspend your account for 4 weeks."
> Does this sound like they are trying to find out what their system did wrong?
> 
> This train wreck has costs me much in lost reservations, canceled guest reservations, etc.
> 
> As you all know, the 10 month window that occurred during this past 4 weeks included the highest travel time of the year and we were not able to book anything unless you can book 13 months.
> 
> With all this in mind, I think our damages are growing and they will not even recognize them without legal representation.
> If you have a legal group started to help with this, please contact me.



I was similarly "interrogated" and I may have some additional evidence as the Wyndham guy called me at my office where my calls are RECORDED. If anyone's for the etart to legal action going, I've got key evidence.


----------



## bestresort

bnoble said:


> ProTip: There is nothing wrong with stripping and selling a contract. Someone is still paying the MFs on it.
> 
> Not if its sold back to wyndham or ripping off a dope.
> 
> i wont block you.I can tolerate other view points


----------



## ilya

If Wyndham's sales people tell you  that you  then  need to buy more points so you can maximize your membership and then explain exactly how to do this with cancel and rebook, double booking , borrowing  ..., this should not be an illegal action. Recently, when I called to cancel and rebook the VP told me this was not really allowed and it was a loophole in the system that people are taking advantage of. 

As far as the recent freezing, I think it has more to do with some employees that were playing with peoples accounts , giving them more points, adjusting accounts.  they told me "too many hands were in the cookie jar" so in order to correct my misplaced points it had to be sent to a different department.


----------



## cayman01

*Not the time*

Not the time to be throwing knives at each other. You guys need to stick together. The semantics of stripping and megarenting can wait for another day. NO RULES WERE BROKEN ON THE OWNERS PART! 

 Band together and stick to your guns. I see three options. 

 1: get a lawyer to file an injunction and / or sue. That could take a LONG time to sort out.

 2: offer to work with Wyndham to fix the problem with their software system. I am guessing that everybody who is suspended has had a "point adjustment" in the recent past. Working together the problem should get resolved quickly. However, I am not so sure that Wyndham has not already figured out the problem and is now taking advantage of situation to kill off some Megarenters. The old Rahm Emanuel Theory, never let a crisis go to waste.

 3: raise holy Hell with the corporate office. Not the timeshare people , but corporate Wyndham. That just might do the trick. Bad publicity can turn a company's thinking around very quickly.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*A corporation full of biz. SILOS ='Wyndham*



ilya said:


> If Wyndham's sales people tell you  that you  then  need to buy more points so you can maximize your membership and then explain exactly how to do this with cancel and rebook, double booking , borrowing  ..., this should not be an illegal action. Recently, when I called to cancel and rebook the VP told me this was not really allowed and it was a loophole in the system that people are taking advantage of.
> 
> As far as the recent freezing, I think it has more to do with some employees that were playing with peoples accounts , giving them more points, adjusting accounts.  they told me "too many hands were in the cookie jar" so in order to correct my misplaced points it had to be sent to a different department.



*******
Your post describes a corporation that is comprised of business silos that are 
not working in unison .

A couple of hundred posts ago - Ron Parise  stated that the Wyndham employees 
he interacted with were competant and hard working and knew their job - BUT - 
generally knew very little about the job role / function of other departments .**
( somewhat typical of large business or government entities ) 

**Ron - I am not about to look through 500 post to quote you / so my apologies 
if I am " misquoting " your post . 
********

So a hardworking employee in reservations " fixes " a issue a CUSTOMER / OWNER has had ( by " replacing " points in some manner . 
Result - happy customer and no more employee time and $$$ labour spent  on a minor issue 

So a ( commissioned / must meet a sales quota to keep job ) TS salesperson fully explains ( no lies ) how the computer system works - and says if you pay xxx $ dollars - you can do this too. 
Result - a new or upgraded owner and " buy in dollars " in Wyndham's pocket 


Now - the audit / legal dept is blaming - THE OWNERS 

Wyndham has a CEO , CFO , head of IT etc etc - who are " in charge " 
and have let these SILOS exist  without fixing the issues - while they are well compensated .

***In the Spanish Inquisition - those  running it put people in the rack and gradually 
pulled them apart . If you did not " confess " and died - they said your death showed you were guilty because God did not save you . If you " confessed " due to the pain - then you were guilty

***i ie  - Heads you lose ,Tails I win .

***I do not think either qualifies under current legal due procees - but I am not  a lawyer 

SILOS  -SILOS -SILOS 



I have been reading this thread from soon after it started - as a non owner
so just my 2 cents . 

.


----------



## bnoble

Slinger said:


> Did this conversation actually take place?



An anonymous poster with one post, registering that day having only found the site now despite being a large enough Wyndham owner to get noticed by the freeze, replying to another anonymous poster with only one post? 

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd rather see that corroborated by some of our more established members.


----------



## Bigrob

bnoble said:


> An anonymous poster with one post, registering that day having only found the site now despite being a large enough Wyndham owner to get noticed by the freeze, replying to another anonymous poster with only one post?
> 
> I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'd rather see that corroborated by some of our more established members.



For all we know, it may actually be one of our more established posters who prefers to remain anonymous. That's the challenge here... sorting out the information that is useful to share with other owners while not compromising one's own legal position. No doubt there are many more who have not posted at all for this reason.


----------



## vacationhopeful

There is no hiding identities when a lawsuit happens. And that includes PMs. And emails. And text messages. And phone calls.

Throw away cells might still be a little harder .. but those cell towers could throw some 'maybe it is so & so' talking to 'what's his face'. 

But at least, there might be doubt as to what was said. 

Unless the CIA is still listening into and recording all domestic cell phone conversations.

Oh, that's right. CIA can't do domestic spying.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

vacationhopeful said:


> There is no hiding identities when a lawsuit happens. And that includes PMs. And emails. And text messages. And phone calls.
> 
> Throw away cells might still be a little harder .. but those cell towers could throw some 'maybe it is so & so' talking to 'what's his face'.
> 
> But at least, there might be doubt as to what was said.
> 
> Unless the CIA is still listening into and recording all domestic cell phone conversations.
> 
> Oh, that's right. CIA can't do domestic spying.



*******
Right -

and Wyndham knows were all the points should be - Right - 

Thanks Linda


----------



## John or Jane Doe

We need to stick together.

The root cause here is systems (that STILL don't account for points correctly - read the current post on credit pooled points returning as regular points). 

Systems and bad processes.  Stripping and rolling, in conjunction with broken systems.  

Stripping and rolling, Wyndham was fully aware, there were no rules broken there. Other issues seem to be systems related (systems that don't function properly), if they didn't know they had problems they should have - maybe they need to join TUG). 

Insiders - that's something Wyndham needs to figure out if it happened.  I think they are chasing the wrong thing there.  Noise that's causing them to focus on the wrong thing. 

Wyndham has got to take ownership for this.

Seen the first rollout of the new system? In my world we call that putting lipstick on a pig. Come on IT, get with it! Fix the real issues! 

I believe I am suspended due to rolling. OC said I was in breach of the trust for having multiple use years. I told OC/lawyer that's something sales was selling.  She said 'oh'.  That was the end of the discussion, other than saying they wouldn't unsuspend me. They did not approach the insider theory with me.  

I do not feel they have their arms around this whatsoever. I wanted to give them time, but we can only wait so long.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> *******
> Right -
> 
> and Wyndham knows were all the points should be - Right -
> 
> Thanks Linda




And there lies the problem.  They don't!!!  They are unable to audit/account for the points.  Because their systems are unable to do so.


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> For all we know, it may actually be one of our more established posters who prefers to remain anonymous. That's the challenge here... sorting out the information that is useful to share with other owners while not compromising one's own legal position. No doubt there are many more who have not posted at all for this reason.





I concur.  As this drags into the fourth week I see patience on the part of us owners being viewed by Wyndham as weakness.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> There is no hiding identities when a lawsuit happens. And that includes PMs. And emails. And text messages. And phone calls.
> 
> 
> 
> Throw away cells might still be a little harder .. but those cell towers could throw some 'maybe it is so & so' talking to 'what's his face'.
> 
> 
> 
> But at least, there might be doubt as to what was said.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the CIA is still listening into and recording all domestic cell phone conversations.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, that's right. CIA can't do domestic spying.





Does that apply to Wyndham as well?  Will they have to reveal their communications back and forth within leadership and managers/counselors?  If so, that would seem a great trade off.  My guess is the smoking guns lies within Wyndham walls.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> Does that apply to Wyndham as well?  Will they have to reveal their communications back and forth within leadership and managers/counselors?  If so, that would seem a great trade off.  My guess is the smoking guns lies within Wyndham walls.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Yes it does, however it only applies to conversations, emails, and other communications that are not privileged; discussions that included the attorneys would be privileged. This may explain why attorneys have been on calls with owners that are impacted. Additionally until there is a court order compelling Wyndham to retain such communications, records of such communications may be deleted. What we don't know is whether some such court order already exists, and Wyndham has already had to issue a retain notice to managers. This would be one reason to act now rather than wait it out.

Note: I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV; however, I have seen such corporate retention notifications due to pending litigation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ

Bigrob said:


> For all we know, it may actually be one of our more established posters who prefers to remain anonymous. That's the challenge here... sorting out the information that is useful to share with other owners while not compromising one's own legal position. No doubt there are many more who have not posted at all for this reason.





vacationhopeful said:


> There is no hiding identities when a lawsuit happens. And that includes PMs. And emails. And text messages. And phone calls.
> 
> Throw away cells might still be a little harder .. but those cell towers could throw some 'maybe it is so & so' talking to 'what's his face'.
> 
> But at least, there might be doubt as to what was said.
> 
> Unless the CIA is still listening into and recording all domestic cell phone conversations.
> 
> Oh, that's right. CIA can't do domestic spying.



I can't figure out exactly what you're trying to say with such cryptic language, but if there's any doubt whether your anonymity on TUG will be protected by TUG Admin then you should ask TUGBrian that question directly.  Of course if you use your actual name as a TUG User Name, or if your TUG signature links directly to a website that identifies you, then TUG can't protect against Wyndham learning your identity via those public releases.  But if your TUG User Name/signature don't make your identity public, I'm pretty sure that TUG Admin takes the proper measures to protect it.

It's a good question, so ask TUGBrian if you're concerned.  I'll send him a link to this post to let him know the subject's come up.


----------



## Bigrob

Bigrob said:


> Yes it does, however it only applies to conversations, emails, and other communications that are not privileged; discussions that included the attorneys would be privileged. This may explain why attorneys have been on calls with owners that are impacted. Additionally until there is a court order compelling Wyndham to retain such communications, records of such communications may be deleted. What we don't know is whether some such court order already exists, and Wyndham has already had to issue a retain notice to managers. This would be one reason to act now rather than wait it out.
> 
> Note: I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV; however, I have seen such corporate retention notifications due to pending litigation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Also, most corporations, and I would think this would include Wyndham, are quick to include attorneys in discussions and meetings for this very reason. As soon as any situation occurs that might involve litigation, Counsel is immediately included in further discussions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

COAIR005 said:


> I was similarly "interrogated" and I may have some additional evidence as the Wyndham guy called me at my office where my calls are RECORDED. If anyone's for the etart to legal action going, I've got key evidence.



Very interesting.  Is Wyndham recording as well?


----------



## Bigrob

Good question. If they are it was not announced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bnoble

Florida is a two-party consent state, so if they were calling from HQ and recording it, they would  need to disclose.


----------



## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> Florida is a two-party consent state, so if they were calling from HQ and recording it, they would  need to disclose.



How would that be impacted by the poster who stated he received his call at his office where every call is recorded?


----------



## cayman01

*Where at*



wjappraise said:


> How would that be impacted by the poster who stated he received his call at his office where every call is recorded?



I believe that would depend on a couple things. What state he was in and what state any legal action was taken in. If he doesn't disclose to Wyndham he is recording, and it is a two party state, then said recordings are inadmissible. If he is in a single party state and the legal action he takes is filed there then it should be okay.

 Just my opinion. I am no lawyer.


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## ziravan

cayman01 said:


> I believe that would depend on a couple things. What state he was in and what state any legal action was taken in. If he doesn't disclose to Wyndham he is recording, and it is a two party state, then said recordings are inadmissible. If he is in a single party state and the legal action he takes is filed there then it should be okay.
> 
> Just my opinion. I am no lawyer.



If his business line records, it probably states it does automatically when they called. "For quality assurance, all calls are recorded."


----------



## snickers104

All of my work lines are recorded and it doesn't state anything about it....we call al over the U.S.  I work in Kansas.


----------



## am1

Guest names can be added to reservations checking in up to October 15th.  So far no public announcement that I have seen.


----------



## vacationhopeful

So now Wyndahm is working on the 45 day plan to keep the status quo as "frozen"?

Because GC can be added for checkin up to Oct 15 (14 days before checkin).


BASED ON the immediate post above this where locked out owners can update guests thru the Oct 15 checkin day. Allows for these owners to NOT lose all overlapping reservations AND to permit their guests to checkin.


----------



## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> So now Wyndahm is working on the 45 day plan to keep the status quo as "frozen"?
> 
> Because GC can be added for checkin up to Oct 15 (14 days before checkin).



Has anyone heard ANYTHING?


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Has anyone heard ANYTHING?



I'm going to assume that if anyone has heard anything they have decided for their own reasons, to keep quiet


----------



## spackler

I'm assuming that Wyndham's ability to charge monthly MFs aren't frozen during all this, right?


----------



## wjappraise

spackler said:


> I'm assuming that Wyndham's ability to charge monthly MFs aren't frozen during all this, right?



You are very correct in that assumption.  My ability to pay the MF is intact, on Wednesday I will be making my second monthly payment for an account I cannot fully use. . . . Last month the day I made my payment, I got locked out.  Fantastic timing.  To add insult to injury I need to pay $129 to add a guest name to an existing reservation, as opposed to $99 online, which has been disable from my account.  That $30 speaks to the contempt with which Wyndham holds its owners, in my opinion.  You would think they would at least tell the poor workers assigned to handle our phone calls to simply charge us the $99. . . nope.


----------



## rocketman61

*Still locked out*



ronparise said:


> I'm going to assume that if anyone has heard anything they have decided for their own reasons, to keep quiet



I have not heard anything from Wyndham. My account was suspended Aug 22. My teleconference was Aug 25. Several emails written to acctinfo@wyn.com but no response. TIck tock, tick tock. 
Tried to transfer points to points credit pool the week prior to Aug 22 but request was denied because points were not assigned to any of my contracts. I was told that points can no longer be reassigned to a contract by OC reservations reps. All my current 2016 points are regular use and not from the points credit pool nor borrowed from 2017 or 2018. 
I currently have until Sept 30 to cancel reservations or add guests to existing reservations but cannot make or change reservations. No update has been provided from Wyndham, although promised by 9/16. Like most of you I am being impacted severely.


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT

Do any of you have a great lawyer that want to start a class action lawsuit against Wyndham? This is ridiculous and disrespectful. Do you know of any company where the customers spent hundreds of thousands of dollars plus a high monthly Maintenence fee and have their account suspended for this long with no proper communication? We can't even speak to a real person. The only time a real person speak to us was a lawyer who knows nothing about how the point system works. We the owner did nothing wrong. We did exactly what we were all told that we could do when they kept wanting us to buy more and more points to get to VIP silver, gold, and platinum level. We have no control of how points are credited back to our account. This incident is all due to Wyndham's system error. We didn't tamper with the system in any way and yet we are treated as if we did.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I cannot help but wonder how really widespread this is.  New posters galore.  How many mega renters are there?  No accusation intended (we own Wyndham points and are Platinum too).


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*hi Cindy - My quick math - as a non Wyndham owner*



rickandcindy23 said:


> I cannot help but wonder how really widespread this is.  New posters galore.  How many mega renters are there?  No accusation intended (we own Wyndham points and are Platinum too).



*****
100 resorts x 300 suites x 52 weeks = 1,560, 000 weeks available 
( I did a rough website count and skipped all the Worldmark, )

let's say 500,000 contracts total,
suppose 1%  are platinum = 5000

suppose 5'%' are suspended = 250 owners / all with more than a million points 
I am sure some have not ( YET ) found TUG or this thread  

*******
I am doing this " math " as a non. owner to get the ball started for someone who is much more knowledgeable .

.Please adjust anything so everyone gets a clearer big picture .

By the way - how much in MF a year is the average million point contract 
$ 8 - 12 K or more ?  

If $ 10,000 x 250 suspended owners ( my ?? estimate )
then that is $ 2,500,000  MF yearly . So a combined usage loss BEFORE DAMAGES 
of over $ 200,000 in the last month . 

*****
PS- even owners  at Platinum level--adding 50 Ebay purchased contracts a year ( one a week ) this should not statistically change the big picture if there are 500,000 + contracts /'in all forms .

*****
PPS -'this thread has now blown past the 35,000 views mark 
in 28'days / still running more than 1000 views a day 
and that number may be accelerating as the thread and the account suspensions  
enter month number 2 .

.


----------



## ziravan

Timeshares are real estate interests. Frozen accounts are the equivalent of an HOA putting a deadbolt on your front door. That's simply not allowed without multiple notices and clear justification.

I'm a landlord. If I go change the locks on my tenant tomorrow without notice, I'll be in front of a judge in a heartbeat and I'll lose. Hard. Real estate laws simply do not allow denying owners/tenants use of property without due process.

I cannot imagine Wyndham could win an injunction hearing without proffering a damn good reason from blocking a real estate owner from fair use of property.

In fact, I'm fairly certain at this point that Wyndham intends to stall until it faces just such a hearing. The longer frozen owners delay legal action, the more permanent damage frozen accounts can do to megarenters.

How many megarenters will be scared away/bankrupted by this action? Why should Wyndham do anything at this point but wait all of you out?


----------



## truthmonkey

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> *****
> 100 resorts x 300 suites x 52 weeks = 1,560, 000 weeks available
> ( I did a rough website count and skipped all the Worldmark, )
> 
> let's say 500,000 contracts total,
> suppose 1%  are platinum = 5000
> 
> suppose 5'%' are suspended = 250 owners / all with more than a million points
> I am sure some have not ( YET ) found TUG or this thread
> 
> *******
> I am doing this " math " as a non. owner to get the ball started for someone who is much more knowledgeable .
> 
> .Please adjust anything so everyone gets a clearer big picture .
> 
> By the way - how much in MF a year is the average million point contract
> $ 8 - 12 K or more ?
> 
> If $ 10,000 x 250 suspended owners ( my ?? estimate )
> then that is $ 2,500,000  MF yearly . So a combined usage loss BEFORE DAMAGES
> of over $ 200,000 in the last month .
> 
> *****
> PS- even owners  at Platinum level--adding 50 Ebay purchased contracts a year ( one a week ) this should not statistically change the big picture if there are 500,000 + contracts /'in all forms .
> 
> *****
> PPS -'this thread has now blown past the 35,000 views mark
> in 28'days / still running more than 1000 views a day
> and that number may be accelerating as the thread and the account suspensions
> enter month number 2 .
> 
> .



Just over 400,000 accounts.  Some members have multiple accounts.  Accounts can have multiple contracts.

Just under 22,000 accounts are platinum, 5%

Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.

I agree that Wyndham's own system created this points problem, and statistics suggest that "megarenter-type-activity" is what triggers the error, probably relating to cancellations.  You are far more likely to be suspended right now if your account has total contract points that exceed reasonable personal use (that is, you own a quantity of points typical of a renter).  Don't construe this as a defense of Wyndham or indictment of megarenters, just pointing out who is getting suspended.

It isn't relevant how many contracts are in an account.  If the account failed their points reserved+available vs contract points test, it got suspended.

Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics.  I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you.  Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.


----------



## Bigrob

truthmonkey said:


> Just over 400,000 accounts.  Some members have multiple accounts.  Accounts can have multiple contracts.
> 
> Just under 22,000 accounts are platinum, 5%
> 
> Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.
> 
> I agree that Wyndham's own system created this points problem, and statistics suggest that "megarenter-type-activity" is what triggers the error, probably relating to cancellations.  You are far more likely to be suspended right now if your account has total contract points that exceed reasonable personal use (that is, you own a quantity of points typical of a renter).  Don't construe this as a defense of Wyndham or indictment of megarenters, just pointing out who is getting suspended.
> 
> It isn't relevant how many contracts are in an account.  If the account failed their points reserved+available vs contract points test, it got suspended.
> 
> Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics.  I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you.  Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.



Thank you for posting, and we appreciate it given your position. I believe the vast majority of employees at Wyndham are good people who want to do the right thing. I'm sure it is uncomfortable seeing the most loyal customers being treated like criminals, being deprived of their ownership rights, etc.


----------



## CO skier

truthmonkey said:


> Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.



And less than 0.02% of all Club Wyndham owners.

Which makes this nothing in terms of all the other (500,000) 99.08% of Club Wyndham owners that are not frozen.


----------



## truthmonkey

CO skier said:


> And less than 0.02% of all Club Wyndham owners.
> 
> Which makes this nothing in terms of all the other (500,000) 99.08% of Club Wyndham owners that are not frozen.



400,000, 0.025%, 99.975%.  The gist of your comment is correct.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> Thank you for posting, and we appreciate it given your position. I believe the vast majority of employees at Wyndham are good people who want to do the right thing. I'm sure it is uncomfortable seeing the most loyal customers being treated like criminals, being deprived of their ownership rights, etc.



Then there are the VCs who want to do the right thing for all owners:



			
				1859749 said:
			
		

> I've had one VC (that I've gotten a few times) refuse to do a cancel/rebook.  He said it would be collusion if he did.  He said that's what his supervisor told him.  I hung up and called back. No way I'd want to work with him, even if he did agree to try.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> And less than 0.02% of all Club Wyndham owners.
> 
> Which makes this nothing in terms of all the other (500,000) 99.08% of Club Wyndham owners that are not frozen.



First, I suspect you're correct. The majority of owners may not really notice anything at all. However, I would suggest that just because the majority of owners may not "notice" it doesn't mean they aren't impacted by it.

There are significant additional costs being expended for this process - all being paid for through fees that are passed on to all owners. This process has gone on over a month and has no doubt involved outside counsel, auditors, etc. that all represent incremental costs that are carried by all owners. Additionally as stated earlier in this thread, there are incremental contact center costs... an additional line was set up, additional queuing and rules, monitoring, etc. What could be done efficiently online without any VC or OC "hand holding" in under a minute now takes 10-15 minutes for each individual interaction - again more incremental cost to all owners (and profit for Wyndham.)

Besides the additional costs, there is the issue with the credit pool. I do believe significantly more owners are impacted by this than those with currently suspended accounts.

It will be interesting to see what the impact of these extra costs, coupled with the loss of income from guest confirmations, will do to the CWP Program Fees next year.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> First, I suspect you're correct. The majority of owners may not really notice anything at all. However, I would suggest that just because the majority of owners may not "notice" it doesn't mean they aren't impacted by it.



While they may have no idea and not noticed why they luckily reserved their July vacation next year, the fact is that there was less competition for these reservations due to the freeze.

Good for those owner families.  I hope they enjoy their vacations the way the Club Wyndham system was designed for them.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> While they may have no idea and not noticed why they luckily reserved their July vacation next year, the fact is that there was less competition for these reservations due to the freeze.
> 
> Good for those owner families.  I hope they enjoy their vacations the way the Club Wyndham system was designed for them.



What are you basing that "fact" upon? I have not heard of anyone finding additional availability. That would be a great thing if they did. But what I'm seeing paints a different picture.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246411

(I think there were other data points even within this thread but I'm too tired to dig them out of the many pages)

The reality is, with points managers running hundreds of accounts, most of which are not suspended, this has had no real impact on availability. 

Perhaps at some point in the not too distant future, your vision will be realized. But I think it's a bit premature to start celebrating new availability that doesn't exist yet. What IS real is the incremental costs being borne by all owners.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> While they may have no idea and not noticed why they luckily reserved their July vacation next year, the fact is that there was less competition for these reservations due to the freeze.
> 
> Good for those owner families.  I hope they enjoy their vacations the way the Club Wyndham system was designed for them.



If there is additional availability It can only be a temporary thing due to freeze. Once the freeze is lifted all those frozen points can go back to work, At the end of the day there will be the same number of points and the same number of owners, chasing the same number of reservations

It doesnt matter whether those points are in the hands of a few mega renters or a large number of new owners, or in Wyndhams control; ultimately they will all be in reservations. 

I think you are right though, Wyndham wants the mega renters out of business, if for no other reason than to answer the complaints of folks like you.  and of course to control the rental market, There wont be any fewer rentals. But instead of folks like me doing the renting, Wyndham will be able to do it directly.   This may have started as an effort to explain an imbalance in some accounts, but it seems to have morphed into something else.

The one thing I know for sure is that putting mega renters out of business wont create any more resorts and it wont retire any outstanding points, so  there cant  be any increased availability


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> While they may have no idea and not noticed why they luckily reserved their July vacation next year, the fact is that there was less competition for these reservations due to the freeze.
> 
> Good for those owner families.  I hope they enjoy their vacations the way the Club Wyndham system was designed for them.



Predictable 

I take this as a personal attack and I knew it was coming


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> Then there are the VCs who want to do the right thing for all owners:



It's always nice to have people around who know what the "right thing" is for everyone else.

"Right," like "beauty," is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Broubal

There are quite a few weeks available for Myrtle Beach next summer, none of course for the 4th of July.  Used to be hard to get a summer week unless you went in at the 10 month mark..


----------



## bogey21

ronparise said:


> .......Wyndham wants the mega renters out of business, if for no other reason than to answer the complaints of folks like you.  *and of course to control the rental market*, There won't be any fewer rentals. But instead of folks like me doing the renting, Wyndham will be able to do it directly.



I think Ron hit the nail right on its head.  It is more likely that Wyndham is looking to improve its position rather than to protect smaller Owners.

George


----------



## Roger830

Well, I guess that I agree with posters here, this is either a confused mess or a well coordinated crackdown. As Yogi said, "When you come to the Y, take it."

Because of the timing, end of June-July booking period, I'll pick the branch well coordinated.


----------



## chapjim

Roger830 said:


> Well, I guess that I agree with posters here, this is either a confused mess or a well coordinated crackdown. As Yogi said, "When you come to the Y, take it."
> 
> Because of the timing, end of June-July booking period, I'll pick the branch well coordinated.



Hanlon's Razor:  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


----------



## johnstonga

*I am a "Minnow" and my account has been frozen for a month*

*It's not just the "Mega-Renters" & "Mega-Strippers" who are Frozen.

It can happen to Any VIP owner who follows the rules to take maximum advantage of the VIP discounts and Upgrades Wyndham promotes.

We own 1.1 million points and rent another million directly from Wyndham every year --- 
Of our roughly 2.2 million point use every year, we use about 75% of these points for personal use and about 25% for rentals .... just like Wyndham sales folks promote.

We've never used all 30 of the Guest Certs we are allocated --- we've got 6 or 8 freebies left for 2016 *(can't tell for sure since account is frozen).  
FYI -- All of my "renters" are from TUG, personal friends/acquaintances and word of mouth --- I've never spent a penny on advertising, or listed anything on Ebay, Red week or anywhere else.    I am a minnow just trying to cover as much of our personal use costs as I can.

*Only once in last 10 years have I made enough "profit" to cover our personal use costs for maintenance fees and points rentals.

Why us, then?   
Perhaps because for the 3rd or 4th time this year I called the VIP line to report that I had Twice as many points in my Use Year ending 3/31/17 than I owned with a 3/31 use year.  That's not supposed to be possible in the "post-cancelled-point" era.

Next day, our account was frozen ...... that was almost 30 days ago.

Now I have friends, yes renters, scheduled to check into Smoky Mountains on October 1 --- and I cannot use one of our remaining FREE guest certs and they can't check-in without it, and it's too late to cancel.

For me personally, I'm a Williamsburg 'reverse snow bird' expecting to live here until winter, maybe longer .... but my reservations run out in mid October and I can't make new ones despite Lots of Availability every week until Thanksgiving.   
Am I supposed to go to Extra Holidays to do a rental for myself?

Once Wyndham finally figures out that it is their system software at the core of it's problems ---- it's likely a MAJORITY of VIP owners are gonna get some kind of 'adjustment'.

I just want Wyndham to get it right ..... but they should not hold us hostage while they do.*


----------



## travelwyndham

FYI.... Maybe others are interested in contacting these folks?

Thank you for contacting ARDA-ROC. My name is Lindsay Graham and I am a consumer support representative. Peter Roth forwarded me your email regarding your account at Wyndham. I have not heard of any account freezes over there but I would be happy to reach out to our contact to check into this for you. I will send them an email today and ask that they review the information you provided and contact you for assistance. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Thank you,

Lindsay Graham
ARDA-ROC Consumer Service


Lindsay Graham | American Resort Development Association (ARDA)
p: 407.245.7601 | m: 407.245.7601
From: Peter Roth 
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:01 PM
To: Lindsay Graham <lgraham@arda-roc.org>
Subject: Fwd: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?

Peter Roth | ext: 130 | p: 202.207.1156 | m: 703.401.0676


Begin forwarded message:


To: "proth@arda.org" <proth@arda.org>
Subject: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?

Hello, I was wondering if you had heard about the recently frozen accounts at Wyndham? Our account was frozen and we haven’t been allowed access to it for almost a month. We were told that they were auditing points because they believed that they found some discrepancies, but nobody is getting back to us with any findings. Meanwhile, we continue to pay our loan and our fees. Our account is current and we need to know what is going on. All calls made to the emergency hotline have not been answered. We have been allowed to add guests and we are currently staying for almost a month at our timeshare now. I just wondered if you can tell me anything? Thank you, Christine


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

truthmonkey said:


> Just over 400,000 accounts.  Some members have multiple accounts.  Accounts can have multiple contracts.
> 
> Just under 22,000 accounts are platinum, 5%
> 
> Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.
> 
> I agree that Wyndham's own system created this points problem, and statistics suggest that "megarenter-type-activity" is what triggers the error, probably relating to cancellations.  You are far more likely to be suspended right now if your account has total contract points that exceed reasonable personal use (that is, you own a quantity of points typical of a renter).  Don't construe this as a defense of Wyndham or indictment of megarenters, just pointing out who is getting suspended.
> 
> It isn't relevant how many contracts are in an account.  If the account failed their points reserved+available vs contract points test, it got suspended.
> 
> Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics.  I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you.  Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.



******
Dear Truthmonkey ,
I suggest you read my post #16 in the new (Sept20 start) thread - VIP Platinums having difficulty in pooling 

IMHO - this whole mess - of Wyndham internal SILOS - could lead to a lot more than embarrassment .

TUG member / non Wyndham. owner 

.


----------



## buckor

travelwyndham said:


> FYI.... Maybe others are interested in contacting these folks?
> 
> Thank you for contacting ARDA-ROC. My name is Lindsay Graham and I am a consumer support representative. Peter Roth forwarded me your email regarding your account at Wyndham. I have not heard of any account freezes over there but I would be happy to reach out to our contact to check into this for you. I will send them an email today and ask that they review the information you provided and contact you for assistance. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Lindsay Graham
> ARDA-ROC Consumer Service
> 
> 
> Lindsay Graham | American Resort Development Association (ARDA)
> p: 407.245.7601 | m: 407.245.7601
> From: Peter Roth
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:01 PM
> To: Lindsay Graham <lgraham@arda-roc.org>
> Subject: Fwd: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?
> 
> Peter Roth | ext: 130 | p: 202.207.1156 | m: 703.401.0676
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> 
> To: "proth@arda.org" <proth@arda.org>
> Subject: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?
> 
> Hello, I was wondering if you had heard about the recently frozen accounts at Wyndham? Our account was frozen and we haven’t been allowed access to it for almost a month. We were told that they were auditing points because they believed that they found some discrepancies, but nobody is getting back to us with any findings. Meanwhile, we continue to pay our loan and our fees. Our account is current and we need to know what is going on. All calls made to the emergency hotline have not been answered. We have been allowed to add guests and we are currently staying for almost a month at our timeshare now. I just wondered if you can tell me anything? Thank you, Christine


As an FYI, ARDA's officers are mostly industry insiders...they are not a "watchdog" group, or anything similar. Wyndham has had several officers as officers at ARDA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


----------



## truthmonkey

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> ******
> Dear Truthmonkey ,
> I suggest you read my post #16 in the new (Sept20 start) thread - VIP Platinums having difficulty in pooling
> 
> IMHO - this whole mess - of Wyndham internal SILOS - could lead to a lot more than embarrassment .
> 
> TUG member / non Wyndham. owner
> 
> .



Your post there is extremely hyperbolic.  22000 owners aren't getting screwed.  Also, Wyndham is not targeting cancel rebook.  There is a snafu with points and they froze the accounts so that excess points couldn't be used before they are audited and corrected.  I don't agree with their methods, mind you, but this points issue and the pooling issue are products of incompetence, not malice.

Also, correction to my first post, about half a percent of VIPs are suspended, not 5%.


----------



## rickandcindy23

truthmonkey said:


> Your post there is extremely hyperbolic.  22000 owners aren't getting screwed.  Also, Wyndham is not targeting cancel rebook.  There is a snafu with points and they froze the accounts so that excess points couldn't be used before they are audited and corrected.  I don't agree with their methods, mind you, but this points issue and the pooling issue are products of incompetence, not malice.
> 
> Also, correction to my first post, about half a percent of VIPs are suspended, not 5%.



How do you know this?


----------



## truthmonkey

rickandcindy23 said:


> How do you know this?



I'm sure you predicted that I won't answer this question.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Then there are the VCs who want to do the right thing for all owners:



This is not relevant to the present discussion 

Today's problem is:  "excess" points in some owners accounts and how to fix it

Having said that ; this mess has given Wyndham an opportunity to address the mega renter "problem"


----------



## rickandcindy23

truthmonkey said:


> I'm sure you predicted that I won't answer this question.


Fair enough!

So I wonder if a person has a spreadsheet with all transactions: cancel, re-book, discounted points, points rented directly from Wyndham, with ongoing totals that match the totals showing on Wyndham, etc., would Wyndham be impressed with the bookkeeping and maybe not keep that person locked out?


----------



## BellaWyn

*Audit - Not fun or easy*



rickandcindy23 said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> So I wonder if a person has a spreadsheet with all transactions: cancel, re-book, discounted points, points rented directly from Wyndham, with ongoing totals that match the totals showing on Wyndham, etc., *would Wyndham be impressed* :rofl: with the bookkeeping and maybe not keep that person locked out?



Never impressed, not WYN's M.O.    But it might make the audit for that owner go a little quicker....  Depending on the competency of the auditor and the clarity of the support docs they receive.  

Have been consuming these threads over the last 24hrs.  Even with clearly presented owner documentation to support the transactions, if WYN has not been accurately tracking pooled points for an extensive window of time, its going to take a LOT of work following the audit trails backwards.  They will confirm it first in their own numbers before admitting outright that they have screwed up royally. 

Audit isn't fun or easy.  Do it all the time.  No one is every happy while in the middle of the process.  Scrutiny is not only happening specific to the frozen owner accounts but also their own systems.  They will put ridiculous amounts of effort into verifying first it is an owner discrepancy vs their own error, which, from what I understand from this thread, they will eventually conclude.

All that being said....  It is possible to audit without completely suspending all activity.  That aspect of this issue seems both excessive and horrifying.  For those making reservations against known overstated pooled points however, one would think those would get pushed to the top of the audit pile for more immediate resolution.


----------



## COAIR005

travelwyndham said:


> FYI.... Maybe others are interested in contacting these folks?
> 
> Thank you for contacting ARDA-ROC. My name is Lindsay Graham and I am a consumer support representative. Peter Roth forwarded me your email regarding your account at Wyndham. I have not heard of any account freezes over there but I would be happy to reach out to our contact to check into this for you. I will send them an email today and ask that they review the information you provided and contact you for assistance. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Lindsay Graham
> ARDA-ROC Consumer Service
> 
> 
> Lindsay Graham | American Resort Development Association (ARDA)
> p: 407.245.7601 | m: 407.245.7601
> From: Peter Roth
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:01 PM
> To: Lindsay Graham <lgraham@arda-roc.org>
> Subject: Fwd: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?
> 
> Peter Roth | ext: 130 | p: 202.207.1156 | m: 703.401.0676
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> 
> To: "proth@arda.org" <proth@arda.org>
> Subject: Suspension of Wyndham Accounts?
> 
> Hello, I was wondering if you had heard about the recently frozen accounts at Wyndham? Our account was frozen and we haven’t been allowed access to it for almost a month. We were told that they were auditing points because they believed that they found some discrepancies, but nobody is getting back to us with any findings. Meanwhile, we continue to pay our loan and our fees. Our account is current and we need to know what is going on. All calls made to the emergency hotline have not been answered. We have been allowed to add guests and we are currently staying for almost a month at our timeshare now. I just wondered if you can tell me anything? Thank you, Christine



I'll call them now


----------



## bpellis

Bigrob said:


> What IS real is the incremental costs being borne by all owners.



To add some professional insight into the concept of incremental costs, there more than likely is not a large incremental cost, or at least not large enough to really be noticed by owners. I spend my day job as an audit manager of several large corporations (some much larger than Wyndham), and I would imagine most of the audit work going on here is internal, non-incremental labor. I would doubt they are using any external auditors, rather using Wyndham workers who they would be paying salary to anyways. Also, I would imagine that internal legal counsel is handling this at the moment (in other words, costs that are there anyways). They probably also didn't hire new call center associates for the dedicated line, just moved some folks over (thus it may increase the wait time for non-frozen owners, but not necessarily cost).

Sure, if this ends up in court (such as frozen owners suing Wyndham), it would then start to add up significant costs (outside legal counsel or damage awards), and that would be borne by all owners. But I just haven't heard of anything in this thread yet that indicates some significant amount of costs are being spent. And if the end result of this is claiming back some, perhaps, fictitious points that in turn didn't result in any MF, that may actually be a positive for all owners. Not saying that will happen, and perhaps its a small cost, and a lot of headache for those frozens owners, for nothing. I think the process of auditing accounts and finding the root of their problems is something a well run company should do. I may not agree with the witch-hunt approach, but the general theory isn't a bad thing.


----------



## BellaWyn

*Audit*



bpellis said:


> To add some professional insight into the concept of incremental costs, there more than likely is not a large incremental cost, or at least not large enough to really be noticed by owners. I spend my day job as an audit manager of several large corporations (some much larger than Wyndham), and I would imagine *most of the audit work going on here is internal, non-incremental labor. I would doubt they are using any external auditors, rather using Wyndham workers who they would be paying salary to anyways. Also, I would imagine that internal legal counsel is handling this at the moment (in other words, costs that are there anyways). *They probably also didn't hire new call center associates for the dedicated line, just moved some folks over (thus it may increase the wait time for non-frozen owners, but not necessarily cost).
> 
> Sure, if this ends up in court (such as frozen owners suing Wyndham), it would then start to add up significant costs (outside legal counsel or damage awards), and that would be borne by all owners. But I just haven't heard of anything in this thread yet that indicates some significant amount of costs are being spent. And if the end result of this is claiming back some, perhaps, fictitious points that in turn didn't result in any MF, that may actually be a positive for all owners. Not saying that will happen, and perhaps its a small cost, and a lot of headache for those frozens owners, for nothing. I think *the process of auditing accounts and finding the root of their problems is something a well run company should do. I may not agree with the witch-hunt approach, but the general theory isn't a bad thing. *



Wholly agree on these points.  Pull from existing resources first.  WYN has not committed to a specific audit timeline so no reason (yet) to bring in external help. 

As a public corporation annual audit or review is required on financials.  But apparently that is not happening (that we know of) related to points.  It seems odd that an annual reconciliation of points would not be the procedural norm when a business is so heavily driven with points as the primary currency.


----------



## ronparise

Life goes on

Morning in Cape Coral


----------



## COAIR005

I heard from Wyndham today after leaving a very strongly worded voicemail (*not* vulgar or threatening) on their machine -- but rather firm and to the point.

45 minutes later I rec'd a return phone call and was told that they promise to call me tomorrow and regardless of whether or not the audit is complete they will restore more access to my account -- may not be complete access, but more than I have now.

I'm still waiting on them to send me a copy of my account history so I can do my own math on everything (since i was kind of *trusting* them to do that for me!) -- that was the first thing I was requesting about a month ago when all this first went down.

If there are any lawyers or experienced timeshare troublemakers on the board I'd be curious to know how/what exactly we can prove as "damages" for the purposes of suit presuming they held me hostage and I come out clean.

At a minimum, at least I have a reason moving forward to "get out of" attending marketing presentations early -- because I'll make a scene at every one of them.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

COAIR005 said:


> I heard from Wyndham today after leaving a very strongly worded voicemail (*not* vulgar or threatening) on their machine -- but rather firm and to the point.
> 
> 45 minutes later I rec'd a return phone call and was told that they promise to call me tomorrow and regardless of whether or not the audit is complete they will restore more access to my account -- may not be complete access, but more than I have now.



I hope it works out for you but I have to tell you they made a similar promise to me yesterday when they said my account could be restored within 24 hours of my signing a Terms and Conditions document that they were going to email me.  Well they never sent that document so I am still locked out and they are once again not responding to any of my messages.

It is hard to imagine how any company that I give so much money to every month could treat me so incredibly bad.  Friday marks 5 weeks that I have been locked out.  Kick an old dog long enough and he will bite.

Hoping this ends soon,
D.B.


----------



## scootr5

debrinkleyusa said:


> I hope it works out for you but I have to tell you they made a similar promise to me yesterday when they said my account could be restored within 24 hours of my signing a Terms and Conditions document that they were going to email me.  Well they never sent that document so I am still locked out and they are once again not responding to any of my messages.
> 
> It is hard to imagine how any company that I give so much money to every month could treat me so incredibly bad.  Friday marks 5 weeks that I have been locked out.  Kick an old dog long enough and he will bite.
> 
> Hoping this ends soon,
> D.B.



Terms and Conditions document?


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*Terms & Conditions - Document ???*



debrinkleyusa said:


> I hope it works out for you but I have to tell you they made a similar promise to me yesterday when they said my account could be restored within 24 hours of my signing a Terms and Conditions document that they were going to email me.  Well they never sent that document so I am still locked out and they are once again not responding to any of my messages.
> 
> It is hard to imagine how any company that I give so much money to every month could treat me so incredibly bad.  Friday marks 5 weeks that I have been locked out.  Kick an old dog long enough and he will bite.
> 
> Hoping this ends soon,
> D.B.



_____

IMHO - I  would bring THAT  to a lawyer . 

It ALSO  - probably won't let you - say "bad" things about them on TUG .

the "old" social media clause !!!! ie ( their claws are on your neck )

.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Conditions for restoring account*



scootr5 said:


> Terms and Conditions document?



I am sorry if I misled anyone into thinking my case was close to being resolved.  The terms and conditions document they described to me on the phone basically says that even though it has been 5 weeks they still don't know when the audit is going to be finished and that I understand that when they are done they may be removing points from my account and if necessary cancelling reservations.  While the audit continues I will not be allowed to make any changes to my contracts, selling or buying.

One of the most important issues for me was having the chance to put my 2016 points into the credit pool but now I see in the other discussion threads that even non-frozen VIP owners are not being allowed to put their points into the credit pool.  

So let's think this through.  I can't use my points, I can't save my points, and in order to even look at my account I have to agree I won't sell my contracts to get rid of my points.  Yet they still want me to keep paying those monthly fees so they can keep paying the managers who are treating me like this??

I don't expect to have a very big house in heaven but if they are not careful those Wyndham execs may not even get through the gates.

Best Wishes for everyone,
D.B.


----------



## jumoe

*When will we get it?*

I received the same phone call yesterday. They said they would restore access right away after I returned the document.  I guess we all thought this document would be in our email within a few minutes of the phone call and did not think to ask them when they were planning on sending it.


----------



## Slinger

I wouldn't sign a thing changing my current terms and conditions without legal representation. 

No no no Wyndham.


(Isn't this extortion? "We will give you access to YOUR points and YOUR account which YOU pay for on a monthly basis if you can just sign this and agree to OUR new terms for you") Wow. Just wow.


----------



## Sandi Bo

I don't see where signing the T&C is any different than what's currently happening anyways.  Only a suspended owner would have access to their account. 

Wyndham is in complete control of our accounts.  They adjust them when they want to anyways. They cancel reservations when they want to.  They change the rules when they want to.

I'm not saying sign it blindly (and I'm not suggesting anyone would).  Unless the T&C says you can't sue, what's the difference?


----------



## paxsarah

debrinkleyusa said:


> One of the most important issues for me was having the chance to put my 2016 points into the credit pool but now I see in the other discussion threads that even non-frozen VIP owners are not being allowed to put their points into the credit pool.



I think this is one example of exactly why all of us should be concerned and paying close attention to the progress of this matter. When Wyndham instituted the new cancelled points policy last year, it's now clear that their IT systems couldn't properly track it and now it seems their staff in some instances are standing by the faulty logic that the IT systems are following rather than ensuring points go back to the bucket that they came from. This is not a megarenter problem. It's going to show up more often and be more complex for megarenters because of the high volume of cancellations and bookings in their accounts, but it is trickling down to the rest of us.


----------



## bogey21

Sandi Bo said:


> Wyndham is in complete control of our accounts.  They adjust them when they want to anyways. They cancel reservations when they want to.  They change the rules when they want to.



So true.

George


----------



## Tia

Is what Wyndham doing legal? Wouldn't that be the bottom line?



Sandi Bo said:


> Wyndham is in complete control of our accounts.  They adjust them when they want to anyways. They cancel reservations when they want to.  They change the rules when they want to.


----------



## Iggyearl

*Strength in numbers?*

I have been monitoring the complaint sites for 4 years.  A hobby.  I have also followed the threads on Redweek and Tug.  If I had a $1 for every time I heard the phrase, "If someone is going to start a class action lawsuit - count me in"  I would be a millionaire.

There seems to be no other news of this circumstance on anyplace but Tug.  No complaint sites.  No TV. No "Inside the Gate."  No google information.

I have a simple suggestion.  Why don't each of the affected individuals contact the Attorney General of Florida?  It is a Florida domiciled company that is causing this situation.  Is it "discrimination?"  Maybe.  Is it "restraint of trade."  Maybe.  Is it "unfair and deceptive trade practices?"  Maybe.

Wyndham could very easily have frozen Ron's, or Big Rob's or anyone's account for one week and cleaned up their accounting.  However, they have frozen dozen's if not hundreds of accounts - all under the guise of getting to the bottom of a problem that the owners did not create. For a month???

There seems to be an unannounced agenda that the Attorney General could, at least, investigate.  And, I think that the powers at Wyndham will take a phone call from the AG's office.  Nothing to loose...............


----------



## rickandcindy23

Tia said:


> Is what Wyndham doing legal? Wouldn't that be the bottom line?


It's written into the contracts that Wyndham has the right to change anything at any time.


----------



## ronparise

Slinger said:


> I wouldn't sign a thing changing my current terms and conditions without legal representation.
> 
> No no no Wyndham.
> 
> 
> (Isn't this extortion? "We will give you access to YOUR points and YOUR account which YOU pay for on a monthly basis if you can just sign this and agree to OUR new terms for you") Wow. Just wow.



I would sign it. At this point I'd sign anything to get back to my account.


----------



## vacationhopeful

rickandcindy23 said:


> It's written into the contracts that Wyndham has the right to change anything at any time.



Signing under "EXTREME DURESS" might be a more legal term to nullify your signing to such a one-sided agreement... IMHO.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Help available from NTOA*

Fellow Owners,
  I strongly recommend that all of you who share my concern about Wyndham's loss of accounting and control of our vacation points to reach out to the National Timeshare Owners Association (NTOA).  They are collecting case details and are already intervening on our behalf.  The more examples and specifics they accumulate the better their ability to represent us.  I am not soliciting you to join the organization but rather just submit your problem/situation.  As stated by another poster earlier, there is strength in numbers and the NTOA is already committed to representing the owner's side of this.  Their organization is the best vehicle I know of right now for us to band together.  

You can email the CEO of NTOA , Greg Crist, directly at Greg@ntoassoc.com .

Remember the loss of points accounting is now prohibiting non-frozen account holders from depositing 2016 points into the credit pool.  These problems are not something that just impacts megarenters.

Best Regards,
D.B.


----------



## Slinger

ronparise said:


> I would sign it. At this point I'd sign anything to get back to my account.



Well I do see the validity in that Ron and I can only fathom what you are going through right now.


----------



## wjappraise

truthmonkey said:


> Just over 400,000 accounts.  Some members have multiple accounts.  Accounts can have multiple contracts.
> 
> Just under 22,000 accounts are platinum, 5%
> 
> Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.
> 
> I agree that Wyndham's own system created this points problem, and statistics suggest that "megarenter-type-activity" is what triggers the error, probably relating to cancellations.  You are far more likely to be suspended right now if your account has total contract points that exceed reasonable personal use (that is, you own a quantity of points typical of a renter).  Don't construe this as a defense of Wyndham or indictment of megarenters, just pointing out who is getting suspended.
> 
> It isn't relevant how many contracts are in an account.  If the account failed their points reserved+available vs contract points test, it got suspended.
> 
> Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics.  I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you.  Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.



Thank you so much for your post.  And I hope I am not asking questions that are too pointed.  
1. Why did Wyndham have to suspend the accounts they are auditing?
2. Could they have at least have honestly stated on the login that the account is suspended due to suspicious activity, instead of lying and saying it was suspended for non-payment?  This took an hour of my time with financial services to discover it was a rabbit hole.
3. Why would they insist on charging owners $129 for a guest certificate when on suspension, instead of $99?  Do they not understand this adds insult to injury?
4. Is Wyndham out of trust? 
5. Do they fear involvement of state authorities?
6. Why are they continuing to NOT live up to their word, as some owners have been told they will be reinstated, only to find the documents three days later still have not been sent despite promises?

Thank you once again for whatever you can share.


----------



## taffy19

rickandcindy23 said:


> It's written into the contracts that Wyndham has the right to change anything at any time.


It is really awful that a company can do this to their most loyal customers (timeshare owners) and is getting away with it.

I am reading this thread too mainly to find out where the timeshare industry is going and it doesn't look too good for us if more timeshare developers would follow the Wyndham model.  I hope that the other biggies will have more ethics than that.

I really hope that this issue will be resolved soon for everyone.


----------



## truthmonkey

wjappraise said:


> Thank you so much for your post.  And I hope I am not asking questions that are too pointed.
> 1. Why did Wyndham have to suspend the accounts they are auditing?
> 2. Could they have at least have honestly stated on the login that the account is suspended due to suspicious activity, instead of lying and saying it was suspended for non-payment?  This took an hour of my time with financial services to discover it was a rabbit hole.
> 3. Why would they insist on charging owners $129 for a guest certificate when on suspension, instead of $99?  Do they not understand this adds insult to injury?
> 4. Is Wyndham out of trust?
> 5. Do they fear involvement of state authorities?
> 6. Why are they continuing to NOT live up to their word, as some owners have been told they will be reinstated, only to find the documents three days later still have not been sent despite promises?
> 
> Thank you once again for whatever you can share.


I can't answer questions that call for what someone was thinking when they made a decision, and I won't answer loaded questions.


----------



## bobdaz

has anyone received a call or any kind of update


----------



## ronparise

bobdaz said:


> has anyone received a call or any kind of update



Yes some have


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*THIS TUG Thread - past 40,000 views - in 30 days*

Started Aug 24

30 days - Sept 22 - 10.20 pm - 40,224 views

Has gone up about 600 since 6 pm -


----------



## Don40

For those locked out of their accounts, the suggestion of contacting the attorney general AG is a good one, the banking and finance is another suggestion.  Contact as many State of Florida Governmental Agencies.  If no movement go to the Feds.

 Wyndham, as a corporation will have to answer in their 10K filings if enough complaints are filed.  These steps are free to all to use and takes very little effort.  I am positive if the AG gets 20 reports in a day for the same item they will look at it.  Also the division of banking and finance.  Wyndham is not playing fair, so you need to defend yourselves.  If the FBI in Orlando gets 20 reports of Wyndham fraud, along with the SEC, and the United States Attorneys office they will look into it.  Just be persistent ask for follow up.

You will be surprised, at how soon their auditing procedures are corrected.  This has to be a numbers thing, 1 or 2 has no effect 20 to 50 will garner attention. Locked account users have to band together for this to be effective.

Good Luck, just my opinion on helping to keep you using your accounts.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

*Not just for those suspended*

Thank you for your post. 

I would think anyone with a Wyndham account has a valid concern. 

Wyndham's lack of consistent processes and unreliable systems needs to be addressed.  Wyndham needs to be held responsible and accountable. 

* Credit pooling is not working correctly. Cancelled reservations are not returning to correct bucket.  Lots of people are affected by this, not just suspended owners
* Use year alignment - Some people have gotten prorated adjustments when their accounts were aligned, some have not been.  
* Upgrades available but the system won't let you upgrade?  
* Wyndham is unable to provide history of points usage
* Wyndham cannot explain nor understand how credit pooling, renting points, borrowing points, and other adjustments affect our points balances

We can go on and on. All these "glitches" favor Wyndham.

As owners, we've adapted. We've lived with faulty systems for years.  We're still waiting for that ship (Voyager) to come in. 

Don't wait for your account to be suspended, concerns are valid and should be expressed!  



Don40 said:


> For those locked out of their accounts, the suggestion of contacting the attorney general AG is a good one, the banking and finance is another suggestion.  Contact as many State of Florida Governmental Agencies.  If no movement go to the Feds.
> 
> Wyndham, as a corporation will have to answer in their 10K filings if enough complaints are filed.  These steps are free to all to use and takes very little effort.  I am positive if the AG gets 20 reports in a day for the same item they will look at it.  Also the division of banking and finance.  Wyndham is not playing fair, so you need to defend yourselves.  If the FBI in Orlando gets 20 reports of Wyndham fraud, along with the SEC, and the United States Attorneys office they will look into it.  Just be persistent ask for follow up.
> 
> You will be surprised, at how soon their auditing procedures are corrected.  This has to be a numbers thing, 1 or 2 has no effect 20 to 50 will garner attention. Locked account users have to band together for this to be effective.
> 
> Good Luck, just my opinion on helping to keep you using your accounts.


----------



## johnstonga

*I am UN-Frozen ..... while review continues*

*Finally had my second tele-conference yesterday, no attorney on line this time,  informing me I'd be UN-Frozen ... followed by a "form" email telling me that:

1>  the review continues and that there will be point balance adjustments when it's completed which may include cancellations of future reservations.

2>  our account could be Frozen again if we break any of the rules in the printed member directory or terms of use, specifically citing use of "bots" or other automated programs to make res.  (never have)

3> the only continuing restrictions cited were we cannot convert points to pay for maintenance fees* (never have)  *or transfer points from my account to another *(I thought transfers were 'outlawed' years ago).

*As of this AM, I seem to be able to do online transactions in the same fashion as before the freeze ---- tested out making new res and cancel/rebooking others and it seems to work as before.

NOTE>> my Platinum Account is a "simple" one so while Wyndham may be lightening up -- this is not over, nor does my 'release' provide any more than a glimmer of hope for those with more complicated situations.

I infer* (which means I concluded on my own) * that Wyndham has realized they have a huge problem they created and that it's gonna take a long time to unravel it --- and that cancel/Rebook, VIP upgrades/discounts are not the main culprit as I had suspected.    

Something else is going on ... and I am at a loss as to what it might be, and, of course, nobody at Wyn is gonna volunteer this info.

I hope everyone affected --- and those who will be affected, but don't know it yet, --- will be able to access their accounts in normal fashion while Wyndham cleans up the mess it created.

Furthermore, I hope the final resolution includes:
A> fixing the problems that created the mess;  
B> a clear and transparent accounting of points balances Before any adjustments/cancelations done in consultation with affected owners;
C>some kind of fair redress of Frozen owners legitimate grievances*


----------



## Roger830

There certainly is a glimmer of hope that Wyndham might try to be fair and possibly in the future they might be inclined to post rules before implementing them.

I would never be affected by what was happening here, but I often wondered if they would be coming after me next.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

johnstonga said:


> *Finally had my second conference yesterday, no attorney on line this time,  informing me I'd be UN-Frozen ... followed by a "form" email telling me that:
> 
> 1>  the review continues and that there will be point balance adjustments when it's completed which may include cancellations of future reservations.
> 
> 2>  our account could be Frozen again if we break any of the rules in the printed member directory or terms of use, specifically citing use of "bots" or other automated programs to make res.
> 
> 3> the only continuing restrictions cited were we cannot convert points to pay for maintenance fees* (never have)  *or transfer points from my account to another *(I thought transfers were 'outlawed' years ago).
> 
> *As of this AM, I seem to be able to do online transactions in the same fashion as before the freeze ---- tested out making new res and cancel/rebooking others and it seems to work as before.
> 
> *


*

Congratulations!!  They called me several days ago and said I would have to sign a letter that said the same thing you described but I would have to sign it BEFORE I am unlocked.  Unfortunately they never sent the letter and I am still locked out.  No response as usual to my follow-up requests asking where the letter is.  

Best to everyone,
D.B.*


----------



## Tia

When owners don't unite it's easier for W to continue to bully them individually. It's difficult to unite owners no doubt about it, as the only way to find others is an independent forum like TUG or similar.


----------



## tugger2020

Tia said:


> When owners don't unite it's easier for W to continue to bully them individually. It's difficult to unite owners no doubt about it, as the only way to find others is an independent forum like TUG or similar.



I have yet to hear back on my account now even after several follow ups.  Is anyone serious about taking action as a group?  My patience has grown very thin now.


----------



## wjappraise

truthmonkey said:


> I can't answer questions that call for what someone was thinking when they made a decision, and I won't answer loaded questions.



Fair enough.  I apologize for the "loaded questions."  Likely you can understand the frustration after 31 days of no responses and empty promises.  

Can you give any of us advice on what to do to get access back to our accounts?  

Thank you again for whatever helpful insight you can provide.


----------



## truthmonkey

wjappraise said:


> Fair enough.  I apologize for the "loaded questions."  Likely you can understand the frustration after 31 days of no responses and empty promises.
> 
> Can you give any of us advice on what to do to get access back to our accounts?
> 
> Thank you again for whatever helpful insight you can provide.



I wish I could give such advice.  I would have given that information instead of the counts I posted.  I absolutely understand the frustration and that is why I gave the info I knew and could ethically share.

Yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy of using the word ethically.


----------



## COAIR005

debrinkleyusa said:


> Congratulations!!  They called me several days ago and said I would have to sign a letter that said the same thing you described but I would have to sign it BEFORE I am unlocked.  Unfortunately they never sent the letter and I am still locked out.  No response as usual to my follow-up requests asking where the letter is.
> 
> Best to everyone,
> D.B.



They too promised me my "release" yesterday and it has yet to arrive.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Account unfrozen, no online access*



COAIR005 said:


> They too promised me my "release" yesterday and it has yet to arrive.



Heads up that Wyndham may not be able turn on your on-line account even after the case manager says it is ok to do it.  I just got off the phone working for over 2 hours with a very well meaning vacation counselor.  I was lucky to get him because he was the same person I talked with for over an hour yesterday when he helped me reset my password.  Since he remembered the details he knows I was told this was a problem between the case manager and web services.  He called web services again and this time asked them to look deeper than they did yesterday.  Web Services now agrees the account status shows it is reactivated and they do not need another notice from the case manager.  What they don’t know is why I cannot get logged on.  They said the people who really need to be working on this is Tech Support.  The VC would not give me the number to Tech Support.  He said they don’t work on weekends and they also don’t take calls from the customers directly.  I asked how they were going to be able to troubleshoot if I am not on the phone to help test whatever they do.  The last thing I need is another email telling me everything is fixed only to find out it is still broke.  

Bottom line...still unable to access my account since it was locked out on Aug 12.  Excuse me but I have to sign off now so I can write another maintenance fee check.

D.B.


----------



## wjappraise

Is this ineptitude or malice?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slinger

wjappraise said:


> Is this ineptitude or malice?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The answer may vary depending upon which department you are referring to.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

*Ditto*



COAIR005 said:


> They too promised me my "release" yesterday and it has yet to arrive.



Same here.  Was told I'd have an email by end of day yesterday. If I agree to the T&C it will take 48-72 hours to unsuspend.  They do not work weekends.   No email.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

John or Jane Doe said:


> Same here.  Was told I'd have an email by end of day yesterday. If I agree to the T&C it will take 48-72 hours to unsuspend.  They do not work weekends.   No email.



However I appear to have full access (I can book and cancel).  Those of you waiting for an email may want to check your account.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Online access*



John or Jane Doe said:


> However I appear to have full access (I can book and cancel).  Those of you waiting for an email may want to check your account.



Still no access for me.  Same Error 333 "No Access".  A big congratulations to you though!  I hope the shackles are coming off the rest of you too.

D.B.


----------



## BellaWyn

debrinkleyusa said:


> Still no access for me.  Same Error 333 "No Access".  A big congratulations to you though!  I hope the shackles are coming off the rest of you too.
> 
> D.B.



Trying using a different browser and / or clear your cache and see if that changes anything with log-in access.  

Not sure if this will help if they haven't finalized the release of the suspension but never hurts to try.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

BellaWyn said:


> Trying using a different browser and / or clear your cache and see if that changes anything with log-in access.
> 
> Not sure if this will help if they haven't finalized the release of the suspension but never hurts to try.



Thank you for the suggestion but no joy.  Cleared all history on 3 different browsers but I keep getting the "Error 333 No Access".  As far as the Wyndham website is concerned I am still Persona non grata. 

(Wikipedia: Latin, plural: personae non gratae), literally meaning "an unwelcome person")

D.B.


----------



## ronparise

debrinkleyusa said:


> Still no access for me.  Same Error 333 "No Access".  A big congratulations to you though!  I hope the shackles are coming off the rest of you too.
> 
> D.B.



Thats not what I get, and Im still suspended.  I can log in and I can do everything on the site except make new reservations and work with existing reservations


----------



## wjappraise

I still have frozen account.  And no call backs or emails since the 3-5 days claim 16 days ago.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## travelwyndham

wjappraise said:


> I still have frozen account.  And no call backs or emails since the 3-5 days claim 16 days ago.
> 
> 
> I received an email alerting me that someone would call me last week Monday or Tuesday. I just received another email saying someone would call me tomorrow and asking when a good time to call was (that part is different). I'm not sure what is going on. I go between being hopeful and then extremely upset. However, no updates, yet.


----------



## bogey21

Don40 said:


> If the FBI in Orlando gets *20 reports of Wyndham fraud*, along with the SEC, and the United States Attorneys office they will look into it.



IMO this is not a "fraud" issue.  It is a matter of antiquated systems and incompetence.

George


----------



## wjappraise

bogey21 said:


> IMO this is not a "fraud" issue.  It is a matter of antiquated systems and incompetence.
> 
> George



Definition:  All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979.

Based upon that definition, have any of those suspended been given full disclosure, or has there been a "suppression of the truth."  While it might be a simple matter, even the comment on the website for those of us impacted, says NOTHING about being suspended, it says "We apologize for the inconvenience, but it appears that your account may not be current. Please call Wyndham Consumer Finance at 1-888-739-4028 for assistance."  Consumer Finance knows NOTHING about why my account is frozen.  I have paid EVERY DIME they are owed, including TWO monthly payments for an account I cannot use, and emails and phone calls that go unanswered.  

In your humble opinion, what is it, if it is not fraud?  Thanks.


----------



## COAIR005

bogey21 said:


> IMO this is not a "fraud" issue.  It is a matter of antiquated systems and incompetence.
> 
> George



Agreed, 100%. The fact however that they are placing us on the other side of the table as "the bad guy" while they try to get their act together is a question of legality and T&Cs.

Just tells you that the "deed" you get with your vacation ownership is meaningless.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*In Biz. speak - SILOS*



wjappraise said:


> Is this ineptitude or malice?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



IMO - the word is - SILOS . 

ie a business where the various departments or operating units do not internally communicate and share information .( and thereby negatively 
impact the organization's relationships )

****
I first heard the  it 3-4 years ago in a business setting .

This thread and how Wyndham has "worked "  in the last 34 days with regarded to the issues discussed - could be used as a textbook example .

.


----------



## truthmonkey

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> IMO - the word is - SILOS .
> 
> ie a business where the various departments or operating units do not internally communicate and share information .( and thereby negatively
> impact the organization's relationships )
> 
> ****
> I first heard the  it 3-4 years ago in a business setting .
> 
> This thread and how Wyndham has "worked "  in the last 34 days with regarded to the issues discussed - could be used as a textbook example .
> 
> .



Nail on head.


----------



## COAIR005

I spoke to the "lawyer guy" again at Wyndham. I told him how PO'd I am and reminded him of all the money we pay in maintenance fees and his response was hilarious. 

His reply was essentially like, 'Mr. XXXX you don't pay Wyndham maintenance fees, they go to the individual Homeowners Associations. From there they pay Wyndham to manage the product and maintain the reservations system'.

To which I replied - EXACTLY -- you're reservations system is where the problem is!

Never have I spoken to a more stubborn individual (other than another lawyer!)

I really do commend their 'lack of helpfulness'. It takes a lot of willpower and effort to be as stubborn and unhelpful as they are being.


----------



## ronparise

COAIR005 said:


> I spoke to the "lawyer guy" again at Wyndham. I told him how PO'd I am and reminded him of all the money we pay in maintenance fees and his response was hilarious.
> 
> His reply was essentially like, 'Mr. XXXX you don't pay Wyndham maintenance fees, they go to the individual Homeowners Associations. From there they pay Wyndham to manage the product and maintain the reservations system'.
> 
> To which I replied - EXACTLY -- you're reservations system is where the problem is!
> 
> Never have I spoken to a more stubborn individual (other than another lawyer!)
> 
> I really do commend their 'lack of helpfulness'. It takes a lot of willpower and effort to be as stubborn and unhelpful as they are being.



Read the original suspension email and you see the "game" that they are playing. The did this in the name of the Fairshare trust. So perhaps the lawyer is correct regarding maintenance fees but we also pay a program fee to manage the trust. So maybe the resorts pay Wyndham to manage the properties and contribute to running the trust. But so do we

I think you are right but getting angry won't get you anywhere. I firmly believe that the folks that come out of this first and with the best outcome  will be the ones that recognize that there is a problem that Wyndham needs to solve. Help them solve it and come out smelling like a rose. Fight them or make their life more difficult and I think you risk being put to the bottom of their list

For the record my lawyer guy has patiently waited for me to vent and he did allow me to correct him regarding some of his misunderstanding regarding how I use my ownership . We have established some degree of mutual respect


----------



## bogey21

ronparise said:


> I think you are right but getting angry won't get you anywhere. I firmly believe that the folks that come out of this first and with the best outcome  will be the ones that recognize that there is a problem that Wyndham needs to solve. Help them solve it and come out smelling like a rose. Fight them or make their life more difficult and I think you risk being put to the bottom of their list.



I think Ron is 100% right.  Wyndham is at the helm of this ship.  Help them point it in the right direction and you will get to your destination first and in the best shape.  Others will be left floating at sea.

George


----------



## wjappraise

COAIR005 said:


> I spoke to the "lawyer guy" again at Wyndham.



Is anyone having success getting access back to their account(s)?  If so, what method are you employing.  I cannot even get a phone call or email in return.


----------



## COAIR005

wjappraise said:


> Is anyone having success getting access back to their account(s)?  If so, what method are you employing.  I cannot even get a phone call or email in return.




I'm sending you a PM


----------



## wjappraise

COAIR005 said:


> I'm sending you a PM



Thank you.  Any updates for anyone?  Silence is interesting. . . .


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Online account still locked out*



wjappraise said:


> Thank you.  Any updates for anyone?  Silence is interesting. . . .



Last week I was told my account was reactivated with the understanding my audit is still going on and I am restricted from transferring any contracts to someone else.  In other words I can't sell contracts to reduce my maintenance fees until after the audit.  After a few days of phone call and emails asking why I still could not log into my account I was told it was because my first lockout was never reactivated.  It turns out I was locked out twice over the last 6 weeks.  Monday they told me they submitted another request to reactivate my on-line account but it would take tech support 72 hours to get anything done.  Tomorrow is the end of the 72 hours.  Any bets on whether I will be able to login?

I am grateful that they have at least replied but they always remind me I can call in to get things done.  We all know that probably means an hour wait to just do an availability check.  

Best Wishes to all that this ends soon.
D.B.


----------



## tugger2020

*Taking action*

Is anyone ready to take legal action?  I'm done with Wyndham's nonsense and tried to be patient.  

They said my account review would be done weeks ago and they repeatedly ignored my follow up emails.


----------



## Slinger

tugger2020 said:


> Is anyone ready to take legal action?  I'm done with Wyndham's nonsense and tried to be patient.
> 
> They said my account review would be done weeks ago and they repeatedly ignored my follow up emails.



You do not need anyone else. 

If your account has issues and you aren't satisfied, ask around or google for timeshare attorney reviews in Orlando. Or call the local bar association there and ask for a referral. 

Contact said attorney for a consultation. (Hopefully for free). 

Move forward with their suggestions at your request. Probably by filing an injunction to get Wyndham to "cease and desist" their freezing of your account (and your account alone). 

Many will root for and support you. Me included. I don't even have my Wyndham member number yet. What a time to buy in eh?


----------



## ronparise

tugger2020 said:


> Is anyone ready to take legal action?  I'm done with Wyndham's nonsense and tried to be patient.
> 
> They said my account review would be done weeks ago and they repeatedly ignored my follow up emails.



I sent you a private message with the name of an attorney 

Ive talked to 3 attorneys on this matter. So far I've decided to represent myself but I'm keeping all three informed and I'll call one of them (the guy that expects to work on a contingency basis)  if my talks bog down


----------



## tugger2020

Slinger said:


> You do not need anyone else.
> 
> If your account has issues and you aren't satisfied, ask around or google for timeshare attorney reviews in Orlando. Or call the local bar association there and ask for a referral.
> 
> Contact said attorney for a consultation. (Hopefully for free).
> 
> Move forward with their suggestions at your request. Probably by filing an injunction to get Wyndham to "cease and desist" their freezing of your account (and your account alone).
> 
> Many will root for and support you. Me included. I don't even have my Wyndham member number yet. What a time to buy in eh?



Thanks to everyone who PM'd me including Ron. 

I understand I don't need anyone else.  I was just curious as well. 

I am very annoyed at the way they've handled this.  I was patient, watched and read this thread so far hoping this would get resolved.  

Now I want to make Wyndham pay for this nonsense.  If I (or we) take legal action, this should be blasted all over social media, news or whatever outlet can be found.  

Hopefully this deters future owners from buying at Wyndham knowing what can potentially happen to owner accounts with no fault to the owner.  

I don't magically make up points and have not done anything wrong.  Wyndham's inability or incompetence to manage points is not my problem.  This is the same thing I've told them when they called me back the one and only time after several calls and emails on my part.


----------



## Bigrob

tugger2020 said:


> Thanks to everyone who PM'd me including Ron.
> 
> I understand I don't need anyone else.  I was just curious as well.
> 
> I am very annoyed at the way they've handled this.  I was patient, watched and read this thread so far hoping this would get resolved.
> 
> Now I want to make Wyndham pay for this nonsense.  If I (or we) take legal action, this should be blasted all over social media, news or whatever outlet can be found.
> 
> Hopefully this deters future owners from buying at Wyndham knowing what can potentially happen to owner accounts with no fault to the owner.
> 
> I don't magically make up points and have not done anything wrong.  Wyndham's inability or incompetence to manage points is not my problem.  This is the same thing I've told them when they called me back the one and only time after several calls and emails on my part.



As my mother used to say when she was teaching me to be a defensive driver...

"Angus McCarty Arbijay
Died defending his right of way
He was just as right as the day was long
And just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

Although it's difficult at this point, and I understand your emotions (and feel them myself) - you have to realize that acting on those emotions is not likely to get you the outcome you want. I definitely encourage you to defend your rights vigorously; but I'd also recommend approaching the situation with an open mind and an understanding that Wyndham has a problem to solve, and while you've been patient, the problems they have are now creating problems for you (and other owners like you). This is more likely to get a positive response. 

For what it's worth, I too have not heard anything. I understand they are trying to work through a backlog of accounts and it's taking time as most settlements/negotiations do. That being said, the time taken, and the impacts those delays have on you, are definitely things you should be keeping track of for your own negotiation.


----------



## ronparise

"Dead right" is still dead

I'm thinking of the guy thet steps off the curb in a crosswalk on the green light without looking both ways. And he gets run over by the truck with bad brakes.   He was right.... Dead right

Don't be that guy


----------



## bobdaz

Got my account released or unlocked  , had to agree not to sell or transfer contracts , while they continue the audit, no date as to when audit would be finished, i sent an reply to email explaining how i use my account and then wyndham contacted me in a few days and now i can use my account  

Thanks


----------



## John or Jane Doe

bobdaz said:


> Got my account released or unlocked  , had to agree not to sell or transfer contracts , while they continue the audit, no date as to when audit would be finished, i sent an reply to email explaining how i use my account and then wyndham contacted me in a few days and now i can use my account
> 
> Thanks



Great. Is that 3 of us now?  + DB who should but can't?


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*I've been unlocked too.*



John or Jane Doe said:


> Great. Is that 3 of us now?  + DB who should but can't?



Well I am happy to report that Wyndham did unlock my online account.  I have the same restrictions as the others but am very glad to be able to log into my account again.  Today they even let me credit pool my expiring 2016 points.  They said it would be 3 business days before I would see the pooled points show up where they are supposed to be.  I sure wish they would release everyone else that is locked out.  It seems to me they have just as much power over us when we are not locked out as they do when we are locked out.  

One discouraging thing for me is that I had some cancellations to do and those reservations had been made with credit pool points.  The points did not go back to the credit pool but instead came back as regular 2016 points.  If I had not been able to do another credit pool transaction today those points would have had to go into RCI at the end of the year.  I sure hope they get 
the computer program working correctly soon.

Best Regards to all,
D.B.


----------



## COAIR005

I was "unlocked" for a few days...now they relocked me.

No phone calls back, slow to respond to emails (if at all).

How do these guys keep their jobs! These guys make Government Employees look like marathon runners.


----------



## am1

How is Wyndham able to unlock some account but not others? I am happy for people that have had their accounts unlocked but it seems discriminatory or arbitrarily done.  I have 3 accounts and all 3 are still locked.  Not surprised, but with no updates it is very frustrating.  We deserve better.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> How is Wyndham able to unlock some account but not others? I am happy for people that have had their accounts unlocked but it seems discriminatory or arbitrarily done.  I have 3 accounts and all 3 are still locked.  Not surprised, but with no updates it is very frustrating.  We deserve better.



My guess is that it depends upon how complicated the account is and how close they are to completing the audit within the account.


----------



## Bigrob

debrinkleyusa said:


> Well I am happy to report that Wyndham did unlock my online account.  I have the same restrictions as the others but am very glad to be able to log into my account again.  Today they even let me credit pool my expiring 2016 points.  They said it would be 3 business days before I would see the pooled points show up where they are supposed to be.  I sure wish they would release everyone else that is locked out.  It seems to me they have just as much power over us when we are not locked out as they do when we are locked out.
> 
> One discouraging thing for me is that I had some cancellations to do and those reservations had been made with credit pool points.  The points did not go back to the credit pool but instead came back as regular 2016 points.  If I had not been able to do another credit pool transaction today those points would have had to go into RCI at the end of the year.  I sure hope they get
> the computer program working correctly soon.
> 
> Best Regards to all,
> D.B.



I am very surprised they allowed you to credit pool the points. I'm not at all surprised that the points from cancellations came back as regular point, rather than credit pooled points. That part of the program still does not seem to be working.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

And it's all very uncomfortable. 

Although my account is unlocked, it can be locked again at any moment (that's very clear based on this thread). 

Things are not right for me by any means. Keeping track but don't want to rock the boat at this point. 

It's not over yet.  Sure hope others are unlocked soon.  And for all of us hope that there is an end to this madness.

The communication, or lack thereof, and inconsistent treatment is baffling to me, to say the least.


----------



## Vacationfuntips

I've been reading this thread for quite awhile now. Although I am not locked out of my account,reading what others have experienced with Wyndham is very troubling.  

There are always issues and glitches with Wyndham's reservation system and Wyndham is to blame, not their owners.  Wyndham makes up new rules all the time and I can't believe that they can't seem to get their act together!  Why are there so many issues with their online system and the credit pool?  Why can't they hire the right people to update the online reservation system?  Why don't they publish a current Member's Directory?  What is Wyndham's problem?

I am not a Wyndham fan right  now.  What they are doing to their best customers is simply awful!  No paying customer should be locked out of their accounts - not even temporarily. Enough is enough.

Cynthia T.


----------



## cayman01

Bigrob said:


> I am very surprised they allowed you to credit pool the points. I'm not at all surprised that the points from cancellations came back as regular point, rather than credit pooled points. That part of the program still does not seem to be working.



 Is it possible that cancelled reservations are coming back as regular points AND credit pool points? Owners are obviously noticing points coming back to use years, but could these be the phantom points? Are you getting credit pool points you should and use year points you should not?


----------



## Tia

COAIR005 said:


> How do these guys keep their jobs! These guys make Government Employees look like marathon runners.




Hahaha that is :rofl::hysterical::rofl: , because they make the rules and are not afraid of their customers who are hostages in a way because they have no rights


----------



## Bigrob

cayman01 said:


> Is it possible that cancelled reservations are coming back as regular points AND credit pool points? Owners are obviously noticing points coming back to use years, but could these be the phantom points? Are you getting credit pool points you should and use year points you should not?



No, they are only coming back as regular use. And when they do, they are coming back with no association to a contract (because they were credit pooled) and so are not eligible to be credit-pooled, even though in fact that is where they came from (and should have gone back to).


----------



## jediinprescott

Bigrob said:


> No, they are only coming back as regular use. And when they do, they are coming back with no association to a contract (because they were credit pooled) and so are not eligible to be credit-pooled, even though in fact that is where they came from (and should have gone back to).



Has anybody been given a guest certificate date beyond. October15?. I have never credit pooled but maybe total points giong back to use year after cancel and rebook. If that then gets cancelled those points also going back. No other explanation because my points keep multiplying.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

cayman01 said:


> Is it possible that cancelled reservations are coming back as regular points AND credit pool points? Owners are obviously noticing points coming back to use years, but could these be the phantom points? Are you getting credit pool points you should and use year points you should not?



For me it works like BigRob said, reservations made with credit pooled points are coming back into regular use year points.  They are not being double credited into both regular and credit pool points.  However this result is not consistent for all cancelled reservations.  Some of my cancellations did exactly what they were supposed to do, returned into the same credit pool they were taken out of at the time of reservation.  I know this kind of intermittent failure is very hard to trouble shoot from my days working in IT.  

Hoping everyone gets unlocked soon.  Best to all,
D.B.


----------



## wjappraise

Vacationfuntips said:


> I've been reading this thread for quite awhile now. Although I am not locked out of my account,reading what others have experienced with Wyndham is very troubling.
> 
> There are always issues and glitches with Wyndham's reservation system and Wyndham is to blame, not their owners.  Wyndham makes up new rules all the time and I can't believe that they can't seem to get their act together!  Why are there so many issues with their online system and the credit pool?  Why can't they hire the right people to update the online reservation system?  Why don't they publish a current Member's Directory?  What is Wyndham's problem?
> 
> I am not a Wyndham fan right  now.  What they are doing to their best customers is simply awful!  No paying customer should be locked out of their accounts - not even temporarily. Enough is enough.
> 
> Cynthia T.




Well stated.  I am at a loss to arrive at a reasonable explanation why Wyndham's incompetence validates restricting accounts of fee-paying owners.  Wouldn't it require a full explanation and request for cooperation, as opposed to the "acting in our capacity . . . " shot.  Definitely a shoot first and ask questions later reaction.  I know if I received a phone call stating the irregularities in my account require further research and if I would be willing to assist in resolving it, this would be respectful.  But no respect is being shown, and we are now at six weeks.  Even those with access restored, still have limitations placed upon their accounts.   Has anyone been given full restoration of rights and a closing of the "audit" process?


----------



## gwspops

Anyone interested in a Legal Theory??      I am not an attorney, but I can copy and past very well........

1.   CONVERSION

Elements of CONVERSION:

Conversion is a tort that exposes you to liability for damages.   It applies when someone intentionally interferes with personal property belonging to another person. To make out a conversion claim, a plaintiff must establish four elements:

First, that the plaintiff owns or has the right to possess the personal property in question at the time of the interference;
Second, that the defendant intentionally interfered with the plaintiff's personal property (sometimes also described as exercising "dominion and control" over it);
Third, that the interference deprived the plaintiff of possession or use of the personal property in question; and
Fourth, that the interference caused damages to the plaintiff.

The most direct and obvious way to commit conversion is by taking personal property that belongs to someone else without permission.


LAW.COM 
conversion
n. a civil wrong (tort) in which one converts another's property to his/her own use, which is a fancy way of saying "steals." Conversion includes treating another's goods as one's own, holding onto such property which accidentally comes into the convertor's (taker's) hands, or purposely giving the impression the assets belong to him/her. This gives the true owner the right to sue for his/her own property or the value and loss of use of it, as well as going to law enforcement authorities since conversion usually includes the crime of theft.


2.  FIDUCIARY

fiduciary
1) n. from the Latin fiducia, meaning "trust," a person (or a business like a bank or stock brokerage) who has the power and obligation to act for another (often called the beneficiary) under circumstances which require total trust, good faith and honesty. The most common is a trustee of a trust, but fiduciaries can include business advisers, attorneys, guardians, administrators of estates, real estate agents, bankers, stockbrokers, title companies or anyone who undertakes to assist someone who places complete confidence and trust in that person or company. Characteristically, the fiduciary has greater knowledge and expertise about the matters being handled. *A fiduciary is held to a standard of conduct and trust above that of a stranger or of a casual business person. He/she/it must avoid "self-dealing" or "conflicts of interests" in which the potential benefit to the fiduciary is in conflict with what is best for the person who trusts him/her/it.* For example, a stockbroker must consider the best investment for the client and not buy or sell on the basis of what brings him/her the highest commission. While a fiduciary and the beneficiary may join together in a business venture or a purchase of property, the best interest of the beneficiary must be primary, and absolute candor is required of the fiduciary. 2) adj. defining a situation or relationship in which a person is acting as a fiduciary for another.


----------



## Bigrob

gwspops said:


> *A fiduciary is held to a standard of conduct and trust above that of a stranger or of a casual business person. He/she/it must avoid "self-dealing" or "conflicts of interests" in which the potential benefit to the fiduciary is in conflict with what is best for the person who trusts him/her/it.* For example, a stockbroker must consider the best investment for the client and not buy or sell on the basis of what brings him/her the highest commission.



I wonder how many times an hour this is violated by the average broker...


----------



## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> I wonder how many times an hour this is violated by the average broker...



I was a stock broker and can tell you that there was no need to push an unsuitable investment product on anyone. I had everything from cd's to govt bonds to stocks, mutual funds and options and futures contracts that I could offer   My job was to match an investment to my clients needs. And I got paid whatever he or she bought


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> I was a stock broker and can tell you that there was no need to push an unsuitable investment product on anyone. I had everything from cd's to govt bonds to stocks, mutual funds and options and futures contracts that I could offer   My job was to match an investment to my clients needs. And I got paid whatever he or she bought



Ahhh... but you were not "average".


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*50,000 views and counting / 42 days - Aug 24- Oct 4 2016*

NOT THE AVERAGE -'TUG thread



******
This thread went past 50,000 views just. before 10pm - Oct 4 2016 /  day 42 

I believe it may be in third place in the Wyndham Forum 
( I scanned back 50 pages to early 2015 ) So: 

# 1 ) 86,280 views -( but with no posts so far in 2016 ) - 
She'll Vacation Club Points Knowledge thread - started April 11 2007

# 2 ) 64,124  views - STICKY - Wyndham Information and Advise Articles -Aug 10 2010

#3) this thread - 

# 4 ) 48,124 views - Ovation  - started Feb 19 2015

.


----------



## COAIR005

Does seem matter how many "views" we get because no chances are being made:

- Wyndham doesn't return phone calls (even when they promise!)

- Wyndham is holding owners hostage...even now the ability for us to book reservations thru the res center and pay "full price" for guest certificates. 

- Wyndham DID pool (at no cost) points I had expire on 9/30 because I couldn't make reservations the month prior...I did tell them to also pool my points leading up to 12/32, but "they have to go back to get more approvals for that". 

- Who is in charge there? Their social media department obviously dined care. 


Hmmm...I look forward to getting my account reinstated so I can go to a resort in peek season...I might actually go get my "parking pass", attend the "owner update" (aka up-sell presentation) and make a big stink.

Maybe a bunch of us go down together....make it a business trip.


----------



## Jan M.

COAIR005 said:


> Does seem matter how many "views" we get because no chances are being made:
> 
> - Wyndham doesn't return phone calls (even when they promise!)
> 
> - Wyndham is holding owners hostage...even now the ability for us to book reservations thru the res center and pay "full price" for guest certificates.
> 
> - Wyndham DID pool (at no cost) points I had expire on 9/30 because I couldn't make reservations the month prior...I did tell them to also pool my points leading up to 12/32, but "they have to go back to get more approvals for that".
> 
> - Who is in charge there? Their social media department obviously dined care.
> 
> 
> Hmmm...I look forward to getting my account reinstated so I can go to a resort in peek season...I might actually go get my "parking pass", attend the "owner update" (aka up-sell presentation) and make a big stink.
> 
> Maybe a bunch of us go down together....make it a business trip.



I would be willing to bet money that owners who were frozen and likely to make a problem for sales will be blacklisted from attending any updates or presentations. Either that or they will be watching and you will be escorted out at the first sign of trouble.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*Silent Protest - thoughts ....*

Wear - the TUG shirt -to the pool everyday 

" This shirt cost more than my Timeshare " 


or similar - as it likely qualifies under "free speech "  etc.

If someone corporate attempts to remove you or the shirt - call the cops 
while having your cell phone recording everything .

You and  Wyndham make the local  news 
and you post it on youtube , facebook live stream etc 

*****
PS - I am posting the views update / timeframe
in part because I believe some of those views are from Wyndham corporate 


.


----------



## ilya

Over the summer my family had a family reunion and we booked several rooms between the few of us who own Wyndham. When I booked my room I liked the unit that was assigned  and put a "do not move". Other family members booked rooms next to ours. While checking in the resort did not honor the do not move and put me on a separate floor  away from the ocean. 

We signed up for the owner update. No problem. Once we got there they would not let us in the room...Hmm.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

ilya said:


> Over the summer my family had a family reunion and we booked several rooms .... While checking in the resort did not honor the do not move and put me on a separate floor  away from the ocean.
> 
> We signed up for the owner update. No problem. Once we got there they would not let us in the room...Hmm.



*****
This is pretty standard - at least where I own in Mexico ( getting a better "view" by going to an owner update )

HOWEVER - the SILO issue with Wyndham that caused this thread is yet to be
fully solved based on posts this morning by Wyndham owners.

Appt bookers and sales get you to the owner update .
SALES shows you how VIP Platinum will allow you to cancel and re-book, credit pool ,etc etc and some (who -are/were suspended) bought more point from Wyndham based on this . 

Legal Dept is on phone calls with suspended owners and asks about this (suspicious)
use of points AND goes silent when told that owner was taught by sales .

.


----------



## Bigrob

Jan M. said:


> I would be willing to bet money that owners who were frozen and likely to make a problem for sales will be blacklisted from attending any updates or presentations.



I second this, I think it highly unlikely that someone with a frozen account will be able to participate in an owner update, at least for the next 12 months.


----------



## Bigrob

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> PS - I am posting the views update / timeframe
> in part because I believe some of those views are from Wyndham corporate



I am quite certain this is true as well.


----------



## ilya

I mean they would not let us in the owner update room.  I am assuming because they knew we were not happy. The ladies checking people in did say" demand your gift, this is how they  always treat owners".  We did get a one -on -one  update.  Encouraging us to buy more points to take advantage of the cancel/rebook and rent.


----------



## jhac007

*Ushered out of short update*

I am presently at Wyndham's Oceanside Pier Resort and decided to attend the owner update (on Monday) just for the purpose of bringing up the current state of affairs (plus getting paid a little for it, I had just left a week at Marriott's Newport Coast Villas so I was good).  Everything went good (parking pass, breakfast etc.) until about 20 minutes into the presentation I had to speak when the rep had called me by first name a couple of times and had asked what I had.  He had stated that those with small accounts paid the most (and I am aware of that from a MF prospective) therefore the benefits are much better with a large account.  Firstly, I admitted that I was not a Wyndham expert and secondly I was primarily a Marriott owner.  However, I asked (in a very respectful way), was the explanation he was giving on how to lower your MF cost possibly causing the locking of large point owners accounts and Wyndham not responding faithfully with explanations?????? Then the wind changed!  This guy went into a defensive mode, big time, maybe the next 20 minutes!  "Wyndham does not suggest the cancel, rebook, upgrade theory ect."    To make a short story shorter he tried to side track the discussion and it ended quickly.  They took the other three VIPs out of the room and left me alone for a few minutes (strange).  The lead guy came back, took me straight to the payout desk and I was gone!:rofl:  All in all about 40 minutes of jaw boning and I was at the desk.  He knew nothing of any locked accounts (really) and that would never happen!

Jim


----------



## cruisin

jhac007 said:


> I am presently at Wyndham's Oceanside Pier Resort and decided to attend the owner update (on Monday) just for the purpose of bringing up the current state of affairs (plus getting paid a little for it, I had just left a week at Marriott's Newport Coast Villas so I was good).  Everything went good (parking pass, breakfast etc.) until about 20 minutes into the presentation I had to speak when the rep had called me by first name a couple of times and had asked what I had.  He had stated that those with small accounts paid the most (and I am aware of that from a MF prospective) therefore the benefits are much better with a large account.  Firstly, I admitted that I was not a Wyndham expert and secondly I was primarily a Marriott owner.  However, I asked (in a very respectful way), was the explanation he was giving on how to lower your MF cost possibly causing the locking of large point owners accounts and Wyndham not responding faithfully with explanations?????? Then the wind changed!  This guy went into a defensive mode, big time, maybe the next 20 minutes!  "Wyndham does not suggest the cancel, rebook, upgrade theory ect."    To make a short story shorter he tried to side track the discussion and it ended quickly.  They took the other three VIPs out of the room and left me alone for a few minutes (strange).  The lead guy came back, took me straight to the payout desk and I was gone!:rofl:  All in all about 40 minutes of jaw boning and I was at the desk.  He knew nothing of any locked accounts (really) and that would never happen!
> 
> Jim



Does the Cancel rebook upgrade theory end up where more points are essentially created than were originally sold by the developer, I know developers cant legally sell more intervals than exist, but this system essentially does that? seems like the regular non VIP owners would have a great case for a lawsuit.  new to this discussion, if its a repeat, sorry.


----------



## ronparise

cruisin said:


> Does the Cancel rebook upgrade theory end up where more points are essentially created than were originally sold by the developer, I know developers cant legally sell more intervals than exist, but this system essentially does that? seems like the regular non VIP owners would have a great case for a lawsuit.  new to this discussion, if its a repeat, sorry.



Cancel and rebook and upgrade does not create points. You get more reservations for the same points but not more points

For example i own a million point contract  and I make a three bedroom reservation for 300000 points and I make a studio reservation for 100000 points (which leaves 600000 points in the account)

Now inside 60 days I cancel the studio and rebook it with 50000 points and I cancel the threebedroom  and upgrade the studio into it.

The end result is a 50000 point reservation and 950000 points and that still adds up to a million which matches the million point contract I own. Everything is in balance

Contrast that with one of my suspended  accounts where I own contracts worth 2 million points annually and I have open reservations in that account that total 50 million points.  

Bottom line, cancel and rebook is not the issue. But never fear wyndham doesn't like what we do with cancel and rebooking. They will get to it sooner or later


----------



## bnoble

> as it likely qualifies under "free speech " etc.


As an aside, "free speech" only forbids the government from censoring speech or retaliating after it is uttered. Private companies are under no such obligation.

That's not to say that someone would make you take off your TUG shirt, but there is no "right" that says they can't.


----------



## JimmieJames

The Wyndham reservation computer has not done a good job of keeping track of where points were used from and throws them into non-existing use years at times.  

Also it occasionally 'misfires' and generates points - for example this January or February I was attempting to cancel a couple of reservations near the closing time during the last evening that I could cancel before the 15 day rule was to go into effect (in other words, if I did not get them canceled that evening I was screwed and would loose the points by canceling the next morning).  I attempted to cancel the two reservations several times before the computer did the cancel.  The next morning I had over 1.3 million extra points in my account - each time I attempted a cancel the computer was returning points into my account but not actually making the cancellation.  I called and got them removed later - but this is a example of the problems Wyndham has had with their computer system for a couple of months now.

I am not affected by these audits but certainly would have been if I had gone ahead and used those points.  

Jim


----------



## ronparise

JimmieJames said:


> The Wyndham reservation computer has not done a good job of keeping track of where points were used from and throws them into non-existing use years at times.
> 
> Also it occasionally 'misfires' and generates points - for example this January or February I was attempting to cancel a couple of reservations near the closing time during the last evening that I could cancel before the 15 day rule was to go into effect (in other words, if I did not get them canceled that evening I was screwed and would loose the points by canceling the next morning).  I attempted to cancel the two reservations several times before the computer did the cancel.  The next morning I had over 1.3 million extra points in my account - each time I attempted a cancel the computer was returning points into my account but not actually making the cancellation.  I called and got them removed later - but this is a example of the problems Wyndham has had with their computer system for a couple of months now.
> 
> I am not affected by these audits but certainly would have been if I had gone ahead and used those points.
> 
> Jim



I suspect that the audits are resulting in three groups of us 1) would be the folks that have a few extra points as a result of the "misfires" that you describe but never even knew what happened 2) others that saw what was happening and figured out how to make it happen over and over.  And  3) guys like me with really big accounts that have an extraordinary number of extra points from multiple sources

I'm guessing that each group will be treated differently and I'm hoping that whatever happens will happen pretty soon


----------



## buckor

ronparise said:


> I suspect that the audits are resulting in three groups of us 1) would be the folks that have a few extra points as a result of the "misfires" that you describe but never even knew what happened 2) others that saw what was happening and figured out how to make it happen over and over.  And  3) guys like me with really big accounts that have an extraordinary number of extra points from multiple sources
> 
> I'm guessing that each group will be treated differently and I'm hoping that whatever happens will happen pretty soon


I think you just hit the nail on the head, Ron. I have canceled reservations only to see then go to crazy credit pool end dates I've never had. Obviously,  there is an issue with points accounting. 

That said, those who knowingly took advantage of the situation you described should be dealt with accordingly. The question then becomes how do you separate out the deliberate manipulators from those whose accounts had the same thing happen, yet, because of the size of their accounts and number of transactions, didn't realize what was going on. All one has to do is say they didn't know what was going on....

Good post.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## cruisin

ronparise said:


> Cancel and rebook and upgrade does not create points. You get more reservations for the same points but not more points
> 
> For example i own a million point contract  and I make a three bedroom reservation for 300000 points and I make a studio reservation for 100000 points (which leaves 600000 points in the account)
> 
> Now inside 60 days I cancel the studio and rebook it with 50000 points and I cancel the threebedroom  and upgrade the studio into it.
> 
> The end result is a 50000 point reservation and 950000 points and that still adds up to a million which matches the million point contract I own. Everything is in balance
> 
> Contrast that with one of my suspended  accounts where I own contracts worth 2 million points annually and I have open reservations in that account that total 50 million points.
> 
> Bottom line, cancel and rebook is not the issue. But never fear wyndham doesn't like what we do with cancel and rebooking. They will get to it sooner or later



Doesnt that prove the point. Cancel,  rebook and upgrade is really no different in practice than Manhattan Club overselling its units.  Actually a much worse ratio than that. In your example Almost 6 times worse than that. I am not saying its your fault at all, I would do the exact same thing if I owned Wyndham. This is Purely Wyndhams Fault! Wyndham by their own doing set up a system that does not have enough units for the points it sold, because of the booking rules. Manhattan Club sold more units than existed, Wyndham Allows Points to book more units than exist. Potatoe/Potato


----------



## ronparise

cruisin said:


> Doesnt that prove the point. Cancel,  rebook and upgrade is really no different in practice than Manhattan Club overselling its units.  Actually a much worse ratio than that. In your example Almost 6 times worse than that. I am not saying its your fault at all, I would do the exact same thing if I owned Wyndham. This is Purely Wyndhams Fault! Wyndham by their own doing set up a system that does not have enough units for the points it sold, because of the booking rules. Manhattan Club sold more units than existed, Wyndham Allows Points to book more units than exist. Potatoe/Potato



i suppose you are right. The end result is the same when it comes to making reservations. But that's not what triggered all the suspensions. The suspensions happened to to those of us that have too many points in reservations relative to the number of points owned

Cancel and rebook is a problem for the club it's just not the problem they are working on today


----------



## ronparise

I will add to my previous post that personally I don't have a problem with cancel and rebook. As long as there is something available somewhere in the system when one goes to make a reservation the club is not oversold.  I don't see the comparison with the manhatten club.


----------



## FLYNZ4

ronparise said:


> I will add to my previous post that personally I don't have a problem with cancel and rebook. As long as there is something available somewhere in the system when one goes to make a reservation the club is not oversold.  I don't see the comparison with the manhatten club.



Ron,

I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand.    From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit.   You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.

Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.

Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.

I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules.   However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners.  It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory.  I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.

Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand.  Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.

/Jim


----------



## am1

Wyndham picks up the tab on the 250 000 points out of their allotment.  

What happens when units sit empty?  By no one booking them or a hurricane causes resorts to close and points to be refunded.



FLYNZ4 said:


> Ron,
> 
> I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand.    From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit.   You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.
> 
> Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.
> 
> Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.
> 
> I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules.   However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners.  It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory.  I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.
> 
> Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand.  Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.
> 
> /Jim


----------



## buckor

Don't the VIP discount points technically come from the pool of unsold points Wyndham still owns and hasn't yet sold? If that's the case, this is nowhere near the Manhattan Club...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## T-Dot-Traveller

FLYNZ4 said:


> Ron,
> 
> I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand.    .....
> 
> Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.
> 
> Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points
> 
> 
> /Jim



The solution in a perfect world would be for Wyndham to build more units - BUT 
that cost $$$ . Selling the points makes $$$ . 

I am sure that some of this is accounted by contract owners who let points expire . I am sure Wyndham knows what percent of points expire etc.
just like airline know their " float/ overbook "  capacity on each route .

*******
added Oct 6 - Dear Am1 , Ron , and truthmonkey,
thank you for further elaborating on how the points are balanced in posts below 
685/686/687

Where I own in Mexico it is a simpler balance . Jan -mid April ( snowbird season ) is full with lots of cold climate owners booking RTU weeks . All Mexican developers build and staff in pesos and collect MF in US Dollars -so they can afford to build for peak winter season . This leaves lots of good weather shoulder season weeks for exchangers ( fresh sales meat) and the " bonus " / pay on use only weeks owners get that are for non peak season .

.


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## FLYNZ4

am1 said:


> Wyndham picks up the tab on the 250 000 points out of their allotment.
> 
> What happens when units sit empty?  By no one booking them or a hurricane causes resorts to close and points to be refunded.



If in Ron's example, Wyndham expires 250,000 of their inventory of points... then that would balance the books.   Thanks for the explanation.

This is not the same of a unit sitting empty.  That is an example of the ownership at large choosing not to utilize their points.   Yes of course, that still results in an excess of points which is not covered by inventory... but it is a choice of the ownership at large to not use the inventory... not a systematic method of purposely causing an oversupply of points.

I happen to be on a board of a timeshare condo association.   There is a small supply of  unsold inventory to allow for maintenance weeks where the unit is out of service, or to account for limited closures due to unforeseen events.

In any case... as long as Wyndham is expiring equivalent credits out of their inventory... then it is a valid explanation of why this isn't a problem.

/Jim


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## truthmonkey

It would not be an excess of points that are not covered by inventory.  It is points that are covered by unused inventory.  In other words, for every amount of unused points that represents the cost of a particular interval, there is an interval that sits unused.  The points economy couldn't work any other way.  There are resorts that have higher occupancy than others and some that are full most of the year, like Oceanside Pier.  This may create the illusion that points are oversold, but the offset is Indio, for example, which sits largely empty in the hot summer.

There are not more points in the system than there are underlying intervals those points represent.  Either an owner owns the points, or the developer owns the points, or CWA owns the points on behalf of its owners.  Also, when an owner converts points to MF, a cruise, what have you, developer gains control over those points in exchange for the consideration given to the owner.  developer ends every year with expired points that weren't used for marketing, VIP discounts, rental, etc.  There will also be unused inventory representing expired developer points in addition to those representing expired owner points.

 As mentioned, VIP points discounts are covered by developer owned points, on which developer is paying maintenance fees.


----------



## ronparise

FLYNZ4 said:


> Ron,
> 
> I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand.    From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit.   You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.
> 
> Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.
> 
> Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.
> 
> I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules.   However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners.  It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory.  I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.
> 
> Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand.  Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.
> 
> /Jim



I'm not arguing with anything you say here. The cancel and rebook strategy absolutely means that there are more points chasing the available high value units than there would be otherwise. And that's a problem. But as long as there are owners that don't use their points and as long as Wyndham maintains an inventory of unsold points to offset the extra reservations the problem, if not solved, is at least managed. 

What I'm saying is that cancel and rebook is a different problem than the problem that caused Wyndham to suspend all those accounts 6 weeks ago.


----------



## Roger830

It's very simple, reservations consume points available for bookings, cancellations create points for bookings.

This short video explains where this is going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI


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## cruisin

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> The solution in a perfect world would be for Wyndham to build more units - BUT
> that cost $$$ . Selling the points makes $$$ .
> 
> I am sure that some of this is accounted by contract owners who let points expire . I am sure Wyndham knows what percent of points expire etc.
> just like airline know their " float/ overbook "  capacity on each route .
> 
> .



That is how a Manhattan Club tries to get away with it, sell More units than you create hoping that unused memberships will cover it.


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> It's very simple, reservations consume points available for bookings, cancellations create points for bookings.
> 
> This short video explains where this is going.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI



No question the cancel and rebook trick is dead. Or at least it will be soon. 

Again. my point is that cancel and rebook doesn't explain the problem of excess points that caused Wyndham to suspend our accounts.


----------



## ilya

So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price  and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

ilya said:


> So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price  and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.



This is my 2 cents as a non Whyndham owner  who has followed this thread since August and read lots of TUG " today's posts" .

If you cancel a Feb. South Florida and Wyndham computer is set up (ie. will be programmed )to return that booking to inventory in a random time frame of 1 hr to 36 hours  are you going to sit there for 36 hours to rebook . I am sure at the same time it will allow you to book a Feb Branson week for half the points . Not exactly what sales told you - but close enough in a " sales - truth TS world .

On the other hand - if the rules are the same for everybody and therefor renters are now forced to pay $ 300-500 more per week because of a "updated points cost" structure I do not think the prime week rental market goes away . 

I also do not think Wyndham's own rental business is adverse to making more per unit rented so they are unlikely to significantly undercut you on prime week rentals . ( Indio in the summer or Branson in Feb - probably cheaper from them )
The one negative is that per million points you probably can book fewer prime weeks because the final point cost is now resort chart cost .

*****
I will defer to Ron and others to review my 2 cents of analysis .

.


----------



## ronparise

ilya said:


> So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price  and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.



This is only my opinion 

Cancel and rebooking is actually two separate and distinct operations
 1) canceling and 2) booking   So no,  wyndham is not going to do anything to stop those activities. 

And VIP discounts inside 60 days is a program that will (in my opinion) also be continued. 

however canceling to create availability inside 60 days and immediately rebooking to get those discounts is in my opinion a practice that can only be described as an abuse of the system. At best it just pisses off the non VIP owners and at worst it really hurts them

I think wyndham has to stop it. How they might do it is the question. They could institute a waiting list so that cancellations of the most in demand reservations would not come back into inventory. Or they could have cancelled reservations come back at some random  schedule from a few minutes to a few days. And they could prevent the VCs from facilitating these operations Or they could do something else I haven't thought of 



Just know that no one in Wyndham likes that renting for commercial purposes is happening and they aim to stop it. They also know that cancelling and rebooking for a discount is what makes most rentals profitable.  Connect the dots


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## ronparise

Wyndham' s office in Orlando is closed because of the hurricane. If you expected something this week it ain't gonna happen


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## SueDonJ

I agree with those who are saying that this is an accounting issue that goes far, far beyond the effects of last-minute discounts on member accounts.

Wyndham isn't alone in allowing last-minute discounts for Points stays, and Wyndham owners aren't alone in taking advantage of that by cancelling/rebooking.  In Marriott's Points system it can happen, too; on the Marriott forum we refer to it as "The Puck Trick" because PuckmanFL was the first to capitalize.  Some of us only use it when a same interval is sitting there available because we don't want to risk losing a reservation in the interim between the two distinct (cancel and rebook) transactions.  Others of us less risk-averse take the chance that the same interval will become available to us shortly after we've cancelled it, that it won't instead match to a pending Waitlist request.  You win some, lose some.

The discount has everything to do with last-minute resort inventory availability.   It has nothing to do with over-selling of Points or other bad acts by the timeshare companies.  Sure, they could be doing _something else_ bad , but offering last-minute discounts doesn't automatically make them bad actors.

And yes, of course the Mega-Renters can manipulate the inventory to their advantage (by booking at the outset more units than they want/need and then cancelling/rebooking during the discount period on a staggered basis so as to give themselves the best chance of getting the cancelled intervals when they're again available) but again, that's not a bad act by Wyndham.  And if Wyndham wants to simply end that, they need only to enforce on Mega-Renters their vague restriction against commercial activity.

It really is astounding that Wyndham STILL has your accounts under audit.  Can't imagine what you're going through every day but I'm continuing to wish you all well.


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## ilya

I do think it is an abuse of the system when done in large amounts, but to be a gold status and not be able to take advantage  of a few rentals a years is not abuse.


----------



## nicemann

ronparise said:


> Wyndham' s office in Orlando is closed because of the hurricane. If you expected something this week it ain't gonna happen



Oh no....I bought a CWA on eBay last week and was hoping they would be working on the paperwork this week or next at Wyndham.  Guess that is not going to happen.

Appreciate the heads up.


----------



## ronparise

ilya said:


> I do think it is an abuse of the system when done in large amounts, but to be a gold status and not be able to take advantage  of a few rentals a years is not abuse.



Putting an end to the cancel rebook trick will not prevent rentals, neither large scale commercial activity or once in a while activity. What it would do is take out most of the profit potential. There   will still be profitable reservations so renting will continue. At least that's what I think


----------



## buckor

ronparise said:


> Putting an end to the cancel rebook trick will not prevent rentals, neither large scale commercial activity or once in a while activity. What it would do is take out most of the profit potential. There   will still be profitable reservations so renting will continue. At least that's what I think


Agreed, taking out cancel/rebook will not stop all rental activity...as has been pointed out in other threads, there are plenty of reservations that can be made and rented for a nice profit without the need of discounts and upgrades. However, we all see the companies that offer presidential suites for 3 nights for $300 and know exactly how they were able to get that room and offer it at a rate no one else could possibly offer...i think those are the renters Wyndham would be after using the cancel/ rebook...because they cut into Wyndham's rentals too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## ilya

Ok, so I have to figure out what to book for rental profit  and where to advertise . Any suggestions ?


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## nicemann

ilya said:


> Ok, so I have to figure out what to book for rental profit  and where to advertise . Any suggestions ?



Before I came here I rented from Airbnb and of course it was a reseller from Wyndham on there.  That's what introduced me to the Wyndham properties in the first place.  In fact I still have one outstanding rental I made that I am taking in December.  Of course that is before I found this site and the great sellers on here.  I could have gotten it cheaper but there is a lot of people that do use Airbnb and it seems to work for them.  eBay is another place but their rental price seems to be less so I am sure it is less profit.


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## cayman01

nicemann said:


> Oh no....I bought a CWA on eBay last week and was hoping they would be working on the paperwork this week or next at Wyndham.  Guess that is not going to happen.
> 
> Appreciate the heads up.



Wyndham is very slow with resales. If you bought last week you will be very lucky to get it all done by Thanksgiving or even Christmas. I am going thru this now with two contracts I bought at the end of August. Still sitting on desks at Wyndham.....


----------



## buckor

cayman01 said:


> Wyndham is very slow with resales. If you bought last week you will be very lucky to get it all done by Thanksgiving or even Christmas. I am going thru this now with two contracts I bought at the end of August. Still sitting on desks at Wyndham.....


I have a contract I bought in May that still has to be recorded (the deed) before being sent to Wyndham...

My experience has been that once Wyndham has all the transfer paperwork the contract is in my account within 2- 4 weeks.

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## nicemann

cayman01 said:


> Wyndham is very slow with resales. If you bought last week you will be very lucky to get it all done by Thanksgiving or even Christmas. I am going thru this now with two contracts I bought at the end of August. Still sitting on desks at Wyndham.....



Yeah I knew it probably would be till December till it was completed.  Was hoping they would at least get the initial paperwork started for the CWA this week or next but guess that was wishful thinking.  Heck with the hurricane they will probably totally lose the paperwork of the sale. I've gone all the way back to Sept 2014 on this forum and what I have learned is Wyndham is not only slow but unorganized also.


----------



## cayman01

*Rolling*

I don't know to what extent rolling points forward has occurred, but I would think that would have to have had a big impact on the point imbalances. Points NEED to expire to keep the system in balance. Then you have the ability to credit pool two YEARS in advance. Who thought that was a good idea for the system? I can see borrowing one year in advance, but allowing two years just invites people to take advantage of the system. Both issues potentially cause huge amounts of points to be drawn into the same use year. 

 For example, to keep it simple, let's say Wyndham system held 1 billion points total. For 2017 owners have managed to roll forward 30 percent of their points thru Wyndham's software snafus. Half the owners credit pool all their available points. Now you have 2.3 billion points chasing 1 billion points worth of reservations. That's a problem and I am guessing it is what Wyndham is dealing with now. Cancel and rebook just adds to that problem.

 The blame lies squarely with Wyndham for losing control of their system. They should have seen it coming a long time ago. People who were just playing by the rules were quick to see the advantages available and ran with it. They did nothing wrong. Others figured out the loopholes in the system and took advantage of that for which they should be dealt with appropriately.

 The question is, what will Wyndham do? 

 My opinion is credit pooling will be cut in half. Cancel and rebook will be altered somehow ( probably limiting the ability to rebook a cancelled reservation). A new program for last minute type reservations will be created. People who found loopholes that created points in their accounts and abused the system will be shown the door. People who just played by the rules but created huge accounts and businesses will be downsized. 

 I think the software will continue to be a problem. I believe Wyndham will have to tear it down and start  over from scratch. I think that is why Voyager has not made it to market yet. It has the same problems. The best thing Wyndham owners can do is notify Wyndham when there is a discrepancy in their account and work together with them to find the source of it (Ron's idea really). Work with them instead of against them. Legal recourse is always an option but that will NOT solve the underlying problem with the software. Things could actually get worse before they get better if the software doesn't get fixed.


----------



## am1

At a certain point Wyndham can have my points (after the Hoa's foreclose) as I will no longer be able to pay the monthly fees dues since I can no longer book reservations.  Thankfully that moment would not be for awhile but I will need my 2016 points pushed forward with no expiration date as I have been unable to use them.


----------



## ronparise

cayman01 said:


> I don't know to what extent rolling points forward has occurred, but I would think that would have to have had a big impact on the point imbalances. Points NEED to expire to keep the system in balance. Then you have the ability to credit pool two YEARS in advance. Who thought that was a good idea for the system? I can see borrowing one year in advance, but allowing two years just invites people to take advantage of the system. Both issues potentially cause huge amounts of points to be drawn into the same use year.
> 
> For example, to keep it simple, let's say Wyndham system held 1 billion points total. For 2017 owners have managed to roll forward 30 percent of their points thru Wyndham's software snafus. Half the owners credit pool all their available points. Now you have 2.3 billion points chasing 1 billion points worth of reservations. That's a problem and I am guessing it is what Wyndham is dealing with now. Cancel and rebook just adds to that problem.
> 
> The blame lies squarely with Wyndham for losing control of their system. They should have seen it coming a long time ago. People who were just playing by the rules were quick to see the advantages available and ran with it. They did nothing wrong. Others figured out the loopholes in the system and took advantage of that for which they should be dealt with appropriately.
> 
> The question is, what will Wyndham do?
> 
> My opinion is credit pooling will be cut in half. Cancel and rebook will be altered somehow ( probably limiting the ability to rebook a cancelled reservation). A new program for last minute type reservations will be created. People who found loopholes that created points in their accounts and abused the system will be shown the door. People who just played by the rules but created huge accounts and businesses will be downsized.
> 
> I think the software will continue to be a problem. I believe Wyndham will have to tear it down and start  over from scratch. I think that is why Voyager has not made it to market yet. It has the same problems. The best thing Wyndham owners can do is notify Wyndham when there is a discrepancy in their account and work together with them to find the source of it (Ron's idea really). Work with them instead of against them. Legal recourse is always an option but that will NOT solve the underlying problem with the software. Things could actually get worse before they get better if the software doesn't get fixed.



credit pooling doesnt have (or shouldnt have) an impact.. heres why,  when I deposit my 2017 points so i can make a reservation today, there has to be 2016 points in the pool to do it.


----------



## Roger830

ronparise said:


> credit pooling doesnt have (or shouldnt have) an impact.. heres why,  when I deposit my 2017 points so i can make a reservation today, there has to be 2016 points in the pool to do it.



This begs the question, has anyone been denied a reservation because unused points weren't available.

As has been suggested in the past, it's similar to banking a unit in rci. Someone else has to bank a unit for you to get a reservation.


----------



## wjappraise

I dreamt my account, while suspended, gained points .... And Wyndumb blamed me.  


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## bnoble

Roger830 said:


> This begs the question, has anyone been denied a reservation because unused points weren't available.


Back before the VIP pooling deadlines were extended, the pool did infrequently run dry, but never for very long. Since the new deadlines were in place, I don't think the pool has ever run dry.


----------



## vacationhopeful

bnoble said:


> Back before the VIP pooling deadlines were extended, the pool did infrequently run dry, but never for very long. Since the new deadlines were in place, I don't think the pool has ever run dry.



Might have been when the "NEW MATH" programming was adopted by the Wyndham points system causing all those big owners to never run dry of points either.:ignore:


----------



## COAIR005

We're still suspended, but I went online just now and I seem to have access now to see the "Points Status" and "ownership summary" pages and it looks like Wyndham moved my use year (without my consent) to make everything 1/1-12/13.


----------



## tschwa2

COAIR005 said:


> We're still suspended, but I went online just now and I seem to have access now to see the "Points Status" and "ownership summary" pages and it looks like Wyndham moved my use year (without my consent) to make everything 1/1-12/13.



Did you have any contracts with a 1/1-12/31 use year or were they all other dates? My understanding was that if you had multiple use years, Wyndham could adjust all your contracts to the latest one and didn't need your permission to do so.


----------



## wjappraise

It's the total lack of communication that is so disrespectful and maddening.  


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## COAIR005

tschwa2 said:


> Did you have any contracts with a 1/1-12/31 use year or were they all other dates? My understanding was that if you had multiple use years, Wyndham could adjust all your contracts to the latest one and didn't need your permission to do so.



I had several use years. Many of them did revolve around a calendar year, (in part because of a previous use year consolidation), but there were a bunch in other months. 

The long and short is -- I'll get over these "use year" issues, but I have a bigger problem with their lack of clear, honest, regular communication.

If the "rule" is that they can change my use year, I'll respect that...but it's been 4 years that I've been operating this way and it wasn't until "they" screwed something up (they only know what "that" is) now we're on the defensive.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

wjappraise said:


> It's the total lack of communication that is so disrespectful and maddening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



SILOS - 

Since each dept. is operating in it's own SILO - no one feels the need to communicate -since "it" does not fall under "their" job description .

.


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## bogey21

Let's face it.  Wyndham will do what it darn well pleases and Owners are very close to powerless to do anything about it.

George


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## COAIR005

bogey21 said:


> Let's face it.  Wyndham will do what it darn well pleases and Owners are very close to powerless to do anything about it.
> 
> George



Anyone have any progress/success in getting past the bully (Wyndham)


----------



## wjappraise

Doesn't sound like it.  Seems like a holding pattern.  You still paying MFs for your account?  Next week I make my third payment for an account I cannot use to add a guest name without calling and paying $129 to do.  


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## jediinprescott

wjappraise said:


> Doesn't sound like it.  Seems like a holding pattern.  You still paying MFs for your account?  Next week I make my third payment for an account I cannot use to add a guest name without calling and paying $129 to do.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you being charged for guest certs even if you still have some available?
Mike


----------



## Bigrob

jediinprescott said:


> Are you being charged for guest certs even if you still have some available?
> Mike



No, but I would highly doubt there are many frozen accounts with guest certificates remaining in October.


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## COAIR005

Another day another sarcastic message left on the Wyndham hotline phone number.


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## wjappraise

jediinprescott said:


> Are you being charged for guest certs even if you still have some available?
> 
> Mike





No I have used my free ones, but should be able to purchase for $99 not the $129.  I believe one of the posters here was suspended and could not use his available GCs. He had to,purchase through the phone call center for $129.  


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## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> No I have used my free ones, but should be able to purchase for $99 not the $129.  I believe one of the posters here was suspended and could not use his available GCs. He had to,purchase through the phone call center for $129.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I am not sure about that. It is always mentioned to me that I am out of free guest confirmations and therefore they need a credit card for the guest confirmation. I take from that if I had guest confirmations remaining I could apply it and not be charged.


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## am1

I used a free one while suspended.  It was added back to my account right before the suspension.  The difference between $99 and $129, with no chance of adding a guest name to a split reservation for one fee has cost me a few thousand already.  Not exactly pocket change.


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## Jan M.

am1 said:


> I used a free one while suspended.  It was added back to my account right before the suspension.  The difference between $99 and $129, with no chance of adding a guest name to a split reservation for one fee has cost me a few thousand already.  Not exactly pocket change.



And yet Wyndham does not report these guest fees we pay as income on the annual report. So where does this money go? Anyone care to guess how much this amounts to a year. $500,000? $1,000,000? $1,500,000? How would we the owners know as apparently this is one more thing that Wyndham has chosen not to report.

Ok I'm going to trust Ron and truthmonkey and own my mistake. As Peter Hernadez says when he reads the annual income report, it's boring. That is my excuse for missing it when he goes over the financial report line by line at the annual meeting.


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## COAIR005

I cannot believe (well I can) that they still haven't called me back!

Now their "account information line" is back to going to VM.


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## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> And yet Wyndham does not report these guest fees we pay as income on the annual report. So where does this money go? Anyone care to guess how much this amounts to a year. $500,000? $1,000,000? $1,500,000? How would we the owners know as apparently this is one more thing that Wyndham has chosen not to report.



Not true  
Housekeeping fees, transaction fees and guest fees are all reported as income to the Fairshare trust


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## truthmonkey

Jan M. said:


> And yet Wyndham does not report these guest fees we pay as income on the annual report. So where does this money go? Anyone care to guess how much this amounts to a year. $500,000? $1,000,000? $1,500,000? How would we the owners know as apparently this is one more thing that Wyndham has chosen not to report.



It's in the $500k range and is grossed in with reservation fees on the club income statement, as Ron Parise points out.


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## am1

COAIR005 said:


> I cannot believe (well I can) that they still haven't called me back!
> 
> Now their "account information line" is back to going to VM.



I noticed that as well.  A few owner care reps want to transfer me even after I tell them that.  Yet Wyndham has no problem canceling overlapping reservations even if I cannot add a guest name to the reservation.


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## am1

Has anyone been able to arp their converted fix week at 13 - 11 months?  The owner care rep I spoke to said I could not do that.  It seems if anything Wyndham needs to allow that.


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## vacationhopeful

I would just UN-CONVERT your fixed week at this stage of game. Save yourself $75-90 CWP member fees and that pesty $99-129 GC fee.


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## bizaro86

am1 said:


> Has anyone been able to arp their converted fix week at 13 - 11 months?  The owner care rep I spoke to said I could not do that.  It seems if anything Wyndham needs to allow that.



Yeah, I suspect that would be a good one to fight. If you have a deeded right to something, that's not a situation where they can say they changed their rules...


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## COAIR005

Someone finally picked up at the 'account information line' today. She wanted to take a message over to the case manager. 

I told her that they do nothing other than make false promises and fail to return phone calls. 

She sounded like she heard this before. 

I also contacted regular owner care in an attempt to open an official complaint -- not neceseriarly over the suspension (that's a completely separate issue) but moreover the staff being unprofessional, hard to reach and selectively unresponsive.

We all need to start making some noise!


----------



## wjappraise

What is regular Owner Care phone number?


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## jediinprescott

wjappraise said:


> What is regular Owner Care phone number?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I talked to owner care today and no extension yet on GC,s beyond Oct 15 ( tomorrow). The number I called was 1-800-251-8736. Option 3 then Option 2.


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## wjappraise

jediinprescott said:


> I talked to owner care today and no extension yet on GC,s beyond Oct 15 ( tomorrow). The number I called was 1-800-251-8736. Option 3 then Option 2.





Did you try calling 877-298-2027?  That's the special number for us.  I believe you can get GCs beyond 10/15.  


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## jediinprescott

wjappraise said:


> Did you try calling 877-298-2027?  That's the special number for us.  I believe you can get GCs beyond 10/15.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Haven't received any response from this number lately but will try again. Thanks,
Mike


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## wjappraise

Any response?


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## jediinprescott

wjappraise said:


> Any response?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Nothing yet this morning.
mike


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## jediinprescott

I was just able to add guest certs through Owner care through next week. Didn't ask how far out it was now extended and no update when this crisis will be resolved.
Mike


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## wjappraise

I was able to get guest certs for November 1.  I'm keeping track of how many of these I had to purchase at the inflated price. . . .  


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## am1

The inflated price they are charging for guest certificates could pop the stock price.  Just that alone has cost me over a thousand dollars.  While not being able to add a guest name to split reservations has cost me much more than that.


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## JimMIA

Have any of you contacted the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation Timeshare Division?  They are the state regulatory agency for timeshares.  They have a complaint procedure and are pretty active on complaints.

Wyndham is based in Florida, and I assume most of the people you are contacting are in Orlando.

Here's their webpage: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/timeshare.html


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## wjappraise

Thanks Jim.  
I will look into it.  Eight weeks today for me.  Am I being impatient if I feel that is too long to have my account suspended?  


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## NHTraveler

wjappraise said:


> Thanks Jim.
> I will look into it.  Eight weeks today for me.  Am I being impatient if I feel that is too long to have my account suspended?



I can't believe there are still suspended accounts 2 months in.  Wow


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## Slinger

wjappraise said:


> Am I being impatient if I feel that is too long to have my account suspended?



1 day is far too long in my opinion. If any company suspends my assets without notice and without explanation, one minute is too long.


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## wjappraise

The "explanation" was that I have too many points.  Which I told them in January.  March.  May.  August.  


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## bogey21

When will this fiasco end?

George


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## wjappraise

I wish I knew.  


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## jjmanthei05

truthmonkey said:


> It's in the $500k range and is grossed in with reservation fees on the club income statement, as Ron Parise points out.



I think your number is way low. That is only 5,000 guest certificate fees. I am guessing it is in the millions of dollars.  I know of mega renters (not myself) that do close to 5,000 rentals a year by themselves. 

Jason


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## wjappraise

jjmanthei05 said:


> I think your number is way low. That is only 5,000 guest certificate fees. I am guessing it is in the millions of dollars.  I know of mega renters (not myself) that do close to 5,000 rentals a year by themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Jason





I was thinking the same thing.  Less than 5,000 with the $129 fee they are charging those of us without full use of our accounts for two months now.  I have to figure WinPoint VIP alone does that in one year. 



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## Slinger

jjmanthei05 said:


> I know of mega renters (not myself) that do close to 5,000 rentals a year by themselves.
> 
> Jason



Wow! Just wow!


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## T-Dot-Traveller

*This Thread -60,000 views - Oct 21 2016*

60, 000 views - Aug.24- Oct . 21 2016

could be a TUG record .


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## jebloomquist

jjmanthei05 said:


> I think your number is way low. That is only 5,000 guest certificate fees. I am guessing it is in the millions of dollars.  I know of mega renters (not myself) that do close to 5,000 rentals a year by themselves.
> 
> Jason



You can question my assumption, and if so, use your numbers instead.

It has been suggested that the largest mega-renter manages up to 240,000,000 points for Platinum owners. 
The average Platinum owner provides 4,000,000 points to the mega-renter to manage.
This leaves 240,000,000 points / 4,000,000 points per owner = 60 Platinum owners having their points managed.
On average these 60 Platinum owners get 30 free guest certificates.
This leaves 60 * 30 = 1,800 free guest certificates available for the mega-renter’s use.

Now,
The average Platinum reservation uses 50,000 points.
That results in 240,000,000 / 50,000 = 4,800 reservations done by the mega-renter.
Most mega-renter guest certificates are done online at $99, I’ll use $100.
(4,800 – 1,800) * $100 = $300,000 in paid guest certificates by the mega-renter.

This biggest mega-renter does about 10% of all paid guest certificates.
$300,000 * 10 = $3,000,000 in paid guest certificates.

Even if it is two to five times my approximations, this is still just a revenue drop in the bucket for Wyndham.

Jim


----------



## jebloomquist

am1 said:


> The inflated price they are charging for guest certificates could pop the stock price.  Just that alone has cost me over a thousand dollars.  While not being able to add a guest name to split reservations has cost me much more than that.



It has been my experience that if I can reserve all parts of a split reservation on the same day, and put the guest on one of the parts, I can get a VC to add the guest on the other parts at no additional cost. If the VC won't do it, hang up and call again. The best VCs are in Springfield.

Jim


----------



## Bigrob

jebloomquist said:


> It has been my experience that if I can reserve all parts of a split reservation on the same day, and put the guest on one of the parts, I can get a VC to add the guest on the other parts at no additional cost. If the VC won't do it, hang up and call again. The best VCs are in Springfield.
> 
> Jim



Have you done this recently Jim? Wyndham has been limiting the flexibility the agents have to do this.

In any event, the "specially trained" agents helping the "audit-enhanced" owners say they are not allowed to do this, so unfortunately this doesn't help am1.


----------



## jebloomquist

Bigrob said:


> Have you done this recently Jim? Wyndham has been limiting the flexibility the agents have to do this.
> 
> In any event, the "specially trained" agents helping the "audit-enhanced" owners say they are not allowed to do this, so unfortunately this doesn't help am1.



There certainly is a lack of consistency with the VCs, so we just have to keep pleading our case that the Wyndham system just wouldn't let us get all of the parts of a split at one time. Usually, when they see that all parts were reserved "today", they will put the guest name on all parts. If they say no, call again. 

I am not sure what you mean by "specially trained" and "audit-enhanced". Just keep trying until you get that nice Midwestern voice from Springfield.

Jim


----------



## Bigrob

jebloomquist said:


> There certainly is a lack of consistency with the VCs, so we just have to keep pleading our case that the Wyndham system just wouldn't let us get all of the parts of a split at one time. Usually, when they see that all parts were reserved "today", they will put the guest name on all parts. If they say no, call again.
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "specially trained" and "audit-enhanced". Just keep trying until you get that nice Midwestern voice from Springfield.
> 
> Jim



I am meaning that since am1's accounts are suspended he has to call the special line and they won't do that for him.


----------



## wjappraise

For those of use with frozen accounts:  Wouldn't it be the right thing for Wyndham to provide  daily updates to us ?  When's the last update anyone received?  Or the last message you left that was given the courtesy of a return call?  


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## wjappraise

At this point a weekly update would be a huge goodwill gesture.  


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> For those of use with frozen accounts:  Wouldn't it be the right thing for Wyndham to provide  daily updates to us ?  When's the last update anyone received?  Or the last message you left that was given the courtesy of a return call?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Month?  Or longer?


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## wjappraise

I was told nine weeks ago when this started that it would be done in two weeks or less.  Has anyone else contacted the state of Florida?   Licensing division. Timeshare subdivision.  


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## gottashiner

*Florida Dept of Business & Professional Regulations*

I just called the FDPR and this is what I was told that we have to do in order to officially file a complaint and get an investigation started.  I hope that any Wyndham owner that has a problem regarding frozen accounts does this.

go to www.myfloridalicense.com
      click on "File a Complaint"   on left column
      click on "Click here to file a complaint"
      click on "Timeshares"
      click on  "Timeshare-english version"

  This brings the form that has to be printed, completed, and mailed to 
 DBPR – DFCTMH
2601 Blair Stone Road
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1030

The woman said it could be faxed in but there isn't a fax # on the form and form states that it is to be mailed.  

I plan on doing this today.  I am currently at Bonnet Creek for the week and my points were not allowed to be pooled on 9/30 so I have almost 3 million points sitting there waiting on Wyndham to finish their points audit.  My points audit was initiated when I called in to pool my points. I was told it would be 7 days or less and it has been 25 days.


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## mistalong

*Regular Owners-Pooling*

Im curious have any non-elite (non-gold,silver, platinum) been affected?  I'm wondering whats going to happen Jan 1 when more folks start calling in to pool points.


----------



## am1

We are back to having to call the 1-877 number.  In the past it has gone to voicemail with no one responding back.  

Guest names can be added to reservations checking in up to October 30th.  But overlapping reservations in the same owner name are subject to cancellation within 15 days to check in.  

Thankfully I know what I am doing so have been able to manage this but it is not easy.  I am not sure if others would be able to do the same.


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## wjappraise

How do you keep them from cancelling rooms on you if you can't place guest names on the reservations less than 15 days away? 


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## wjappraise

wjappraise said:


> At this point a weekly update would be a huge goodwill gesture.
> 
> I just made my THIRD monthly payment for maintenance fees for a "frozen account."  Could this lengthy suspension be a method to get some owners to stop paying MFs and allow Wyndham to close their accounts?  I just struck me as I was contemplating not paying for a non-functioning account. . . .


----------



## happyhopian

gottashiner said:


> I just called the FDPR and this is what I was told that we have to do in order to officially file a complaint and get an investigation started.  I hope that any Wyndham owner that has a problem regarding frozen accounts does this.
> 
> go to www.myfloridalicense.com
> click on "File a Complaint"   on left column
> click on "Click here to file a complaint"
> click on "Timeshares"
> click on  "Timeshare-english version"
> 
> This brings the form that has to be printed, completed, and mailed to
> DBPR – DFCTMH
> 2601 Blair Stone Road
> Tallahassee, FL 32399-1030
> 
> The woman said it could be faxed in but there isn't a fax # on the form and form states that it is to be mailed.
> 
> I plan on doing this today.  I am currently at Bonnet Creek for the week and my points were not allowed to be pooled on 9/30 so I have almost 3 million points sitting there waiting on Wyndham to finish their points audit.  My points audit was initiated when I called in to pool my points. I was told it would be 7 days or less and it has been 25 days.



If you are in Orlando why don't you drive over to their offices and ask to meet with someone to resolve this.


----------



## happyhopian

Bigrob said:


> I am meaning that since am1's accounts are suspended he has to call the special line and they won't do that for him.



I am not a suspended account but I have been told by owner care and VC;s on EVERY request (no exceptions) that a split reservation, same room size, continous stay is one certificate. IF room size changes or break in stay more than one required. IF this is not policy please share with me so I know for the future. Thank you and good luck in your fight.


----------



## wjappraise

It used to be that way for me.  But ever since the frozen account saga the phone reps have refused to combine on one guest confirmation.  Meaning $258 to place a four night stay in a guest name that was split reservation of the same exact room type.  #greed.  


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## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> I am not a suspended account but I have been told by owner care and VC;s on EVERY request (no exceptions) that a split reservation, same room size, continous stay is one certificate. IF room size changes or break in stay more than one required. IF this is not policy please share with me so I know for the future. Thank you and good luck in your fight.



That's not been my experience. A split reservation requires two guest fees unless the guests name is added at the same time the reservation is made.


----------



## regatta333

ronparise said:


> That's not been my experience. A split reservation requires two guest fees unless the guests name is added at the same time the reservation is made.



That's been my experience as well.


----------



## gottashiner

I'm not going to deal with Wyndham while I'm on vacation.  I did send an email to Owner Care that I planned on filing a complaint if this was not resolved this week.  I received an email back that it would be completed this week.  My points now show that my pooled points are much higher than they were yesterday and the total points were shifted.  It looks like maybe my account may be nearing end of audit.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

gottashiner said:


> I'm not going to deal with Wyndham while I'm on vacation.  I did send an email to Owner Care that I planned on filing a complaint if this was not resolved this week.  I received an email back that it would be completed this week.  My points now show that my pooled points are much higher than they were yesterday and the total points were shifted.  It looks like maybe my account may be nearing end of audit.



Congratulations and I pray it is so.  Please keep us informed how things go.  My account was unlocked with "conditions" but I have really felt bad for those who were still frozen.  I sure hope they don't re-freeze those of us who were put on their back burner while they had bigger fish to fry.

D.B.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> That's not been my experience. A split reservation requires two guest fees unless the guests name is added at the same time the reservation is made.



I'm sorry for your experience but I have never been told or required to do that and I book a lot of my reservations inside 60 days cobbling together a day here and two there. While I have only done the guest reservation 10 times and always on my free guest certificates, I've never been told this and i might well have to do with the fact that I am using less than 20 GC's a year comped as part of my account while you are using a lot and paying for many.... It does seem VERY greedy to me that they would charge you


----------



## am1

One again the number we are suppose to goes to voicemail and no one returns the call.  At owner care everyone says they are unable to help.


----------



## Bigrob

happyhopian said:


> I'm sorry for your experience but I have never been told or required to do that and I book a lot of my reservations inside 60 days cobbling together a day here and two there. While I have only done the guest reservation 10 times and always on my free guest certificates, I've never been told this and i might well have to do with the fact that I am using less than 20 GC's a year comped as part of my account while you are using a lot and paying for many.... It does seem VERY greedy to me that they would charge you



If you are not doing this often and recently you may not have encountered it. Recently things have become more strict and the flexibility many agents had to waive those fees have been eliminated. 

There may be a difference in waiving a fee versus not using an additional free guest confirmation... perhaps there is more flexibility there.


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> If you are not doing this often and recently you may not have encountered it. Recently things have become more strict and the flexibility many agents had to waive those fees have been eliminated.
> 
> There may be a difference in waiving a fee versus not using an additional free guest confirmation... perhaps there is more flexibility there.



In my experience in the past, when I had guest confirmations in my account some VC's were seemed all too happy to use multiple guest confirmations for split reservations booked at the same time.  After a session I could be short up to 5 or 6 and have to get them added back.


----------



## am1

And someone finally answering.


----------



## jediinprescott

My account has been unfrozen ( thawed) as of October 17 although nobody let me know until I asked OC this morning. There are some minor restrictions such as borrowing etc that I cannot do and don't do anyway. Problem is...the point status still shows way more points than I own. It appears they are still working for resolution but must have bowed to pressure to let us continue to have access while they continue the audit. OC was sending them an email to have them contact me for an update...hopefully that will get a response since they haven't responded to my repeated requests for an update. Other frozen people may want to check your accounts to see if you too now have access.:whoopie:


----------



## wjappraise

jediinprescott said:


> My account has been unfrozen ( thawed) as of October 17 although nobody let me know until I asked OC this morning. There are some minor restrictions such as borrowing etc that I cannot do and don't do anyway. Problem is...the point status still shows way more points than I own. It appears they are still working for resolution but must have bowed to pressure to let us continue to have access while they continue the audit. OC was sending them an email to have them contact me for an update...hopefully that will get a response since they haven't responded to my repeated requests for an update. Other frozen people may want to check your accounts to see if you too now have access.:whoopie:





Can you call the normal VC number for ARP and other matters?  Or must you still call the "special" 877 number?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John or Jane Doe

I am still in "thawed" status as well (and have heard no news regarding the end of the audits or when the restrictions (which I really don't care about) will be lifted).

I call normal numbers now (I don't call the 877). 

I called the normal numbers when I was frozen.  They would cancel reservations or add guest confirmations for me. 

The times I called the 877 number I either held forever or had to leave a message.  Since I could call regular numbers that is what I chose to do.


----------



## wjappraise

So, it seems many are unfrozen as it were.  But no one is entirely resolved or reconciled yet?   


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## COAIR005

wjappraise said:


> So, it seems many are unfrozen as it were.  But no one is entirely resolved or reconciled yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Correct.  Actually about a week and a half ago I was promised a call back this week with an update on moving my account out of thawed status to active. Guess what? That call never came!


----------



## wjappraise

COAIR005 said:


> Correct.  Actually about a week and a half ago I was promised a call back this week with an update on moving my account out of thawed status to active. Guess what? That call never came!





So do you have access to the website from 7:00am to 11:45pm for reservations, cancellations, and guest add ons?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> So do you have access to the website from 7:00am to 11:45pm for reservations, cancellations, and guest add ons?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



In my thawed account, yes.


----------



## wjappraise

For those with "thawed accounts":  Can you call the regular VC line or are you restricted to the special 877 line?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> For those with "thawed accounts":  Can you call the regular VC line or are you restricted to the special 877 line?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I call the regular line now.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> For those with "thawed accounts":  Can you call the regular VC line or are you restricted to the special 877 line?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Would be nice if that number answered on a consistent basis.  But apparently if there is no one there to answer it goes to voicemail instead of waiting in line to be answered.  

At this point how Wyndham has handled this it has become a joke.  I am still sitting on my info to expose Wyndham.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Would be nice if that number answered on a consistent basis.  But apparently if there is no one there to answer it goes to voicemail instead of waiting in line to be answered.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point how Wyndham has handled this it has become a joke.  I am still sitting on my info to expose Wyndham.





That's been my experience and concern as well.  I'm limited to what I can do and what number to call. And that number isn't sufficiently staffed.  And returns calls are either not made or made days later.   
When this whole debacle started in August the attorney told me I needed to call in for all cancellations as the audit needed to see what was happening with each cancel.  So in essence the limitations would allow Wyndham to continue their audit as well as figure out the IT problem.  Shouldn't they have used their best representatives to handle this vital function?  Not Wyndham.  The reps on the 877 number are mostly incompetent and ill trained.  And then they don't answer the phone or call back promptly.  

I'm in the third month of this as are others and it really appears that Wyndham has no clue about the resolution of THEIR problem. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jediinprescott

I agree. Nobody is calling back,so no updates or resolution. The only good thing for me is I have no reservations through the end of the year even though my point status shows way more points in it than I even own.


----------



## wjappraise

I've got to think that all of the impacted owners who filed complaints with the state of Florida forced Wyndham to at least reinstate account access to those of us frozen.  The timing seems more than coincidental.   


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

gottashiner said:


> I just called the FDPR and this is what I was told that we have to do in order to officially file a complaint and get an investigation started.  I hope that any Wyndham owner that has a problem regarding frozen accounts does this.
> 
> 
> 
> go to www.myfloridalicense.com
> 
> click on "File a Complaint"   on left column
> 
> click on "Click here to file a complaint"
> 
> click on "Timeshares"
> 
> click on  "Timeshare-english version"
> 
> 
> 
> This brings the form that has to be printed, completed, and mailed to
> 
> DBPR – DFCTMH
> 
> 2601 Blair Stone Road
> 
> Tallahassee, FL 32399-1030
> 
> 
> 
> The woman said it could be faxed in but there isn't a fax # on the form and form states that it is to be mailed.
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on doing this today.  I am currently at Bonnet Creek for the week and my points were not allowed to be pooled on 9/30 so I have almost 3 million points sitting there waiting on Wyndham to finish their points audit.  My points audit was initiated when I called in to pool my points. I was told it would be 7 days or less and it has been 25 days.





I just wanted to thank you for posting this informative data. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## am1

How should Wyndham compensate, us owners, who have not been able to book reservations for the rest of 2016 and 2017?  I am missing out on booking the prime summer season reservations at 13 and 10 months to check in as well as cancellations throughout the year.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> How should Wyndham compensate, us owners, who have not been able to book reservations for the rest of 2016 and 2017?  I am missing out on booking the prime summer season reservations at 13 and 10 months to check in as well as cancellations throughout the year.





I was thinking free guest confirmations for two years.  No real cost for Wyndham.  And great value for the impacted owners.  


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> I was thinking free guest confirmations for two years.  No real cost for Wyndham.  And great value for the impacted owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



good luck with that.. we have to understand that Wyndham thinks they are the "wronged" party here (or the trust is) We are likely to be asked to compensate the trust for whats happened, not the other way around


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## wjappraise

You are probably right about needing good luck.  However the errant party here is clearly Wyndham. At least the IT department "silo" as discussed in this thread.  I am growing more convinced Wyndham has no clue how to fix their problem.   


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> You are probably right about needing good luck.  However the errant party here is clearly Wyndham. At least the IT department "silo" as discussed in this thread.  I am growing more convinced Wyndham has no clue how to fix their problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That wyndhams  systems and Wyndham decisions resulted in "extra" credits in our accounts is not important to the trust. What's important to the trust    is that the credits be returned. You are absolutely right that Wyndham doesn't know how to fix what caused the problem. But what they can do is get the credits back and that's what they are going to do first.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> I was thinking free guest confirmations for two years.  No real cost for Wyndham.  And great value for the impacted owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Tat would work plus the waiving of the 10 nightly unit limit for a period of time and pushing all my points forward as far as needed.  Also giving me first chance to book reservations as I have missed out on doing that for 11 weeks now.

These are things we will have to push for but I feel are deserved considering the circumstances.


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> That wyndhams  systems and Wyndham decisions resulted in "extra" credits in our accounts is not important to the trust. What's important to the trust    is that the credits be returned. You are absolutely right that Wyndham doesn't know how to fix what caused the problem. But what they can do is get the credits back and that's what they are going to do first.



And offer adequate compensation for those affected.  I am having to use full point reservations of up to a week to cover reservations I rented months ago that only use a couple nights of the reservation.  My plan was to book these with a discount/upgrade as well.  I will expect compensation for that as well as having to wait for over half and hour on the phone to cancel a reservation I could do in seconds online.  My hourly rate is not cheap.


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> That wyndhams  systems and Wyndham decisions resulted in "extra" credits in our accounts is not important to the trust. What's important to the trust    is that the credits be returned. You are absolutely right that Wyndham doesn't know how to fix what caused the problem. But what they can do is get the credits back and that's what they are going to do first.





Interesting points Ron.  However, for many of those impacted there is no violation nor extra points, simply points rolled forward for years.  And at least some of the case workers are very apologetic and acknowledge the extreme measures taken and the extraordinary amount of time that has resulted in lost reservations and bloated fees.  While the trust deserves to have some points reserved, the methods used do not fit the state of Florida's standard for timeshares, nor dispute resolution.   It seems some sort of compensation required from Wyndham is inevitable.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## NiteRN

mistalong said:


> Im curious have any non-elite (non-gold,silver, platinum) been affected?  I'm wondering whats going to happen Jan 1 when more folks start calling in to pool points.



Just now joined this site and feeling my way around.  I have owned Wyndham points x1.5 yrs- did a guest reserve earlier this year as a first time visit.  I ended up not being sold enough points to do too much with.... so I purchased deeded timeshares from ebay to increase my points.   I'm just regular., no VIPs  ..having no clue what I'm doing really - however.....    I purchased 77,000 and 84,000 points to go with my 128,000.  My next use year (July 1st 2017) now shows that I have 615,500 points for 2017/2018.. I'm guessing my "bonus" points from my purchase are in here now as well (should have 162,000) left of those but they were not supposed to have an expiration date.  But they have disappeared from my summary,  even so all of those numbers do not add up to 615,500.  I am unsure what to do at this point.   This thread has been good insight, however I don't even understand  "OC", "VC" etc....   Wyndham system seems so complicated I feel like a need a coach or mentor to gain understanding.  Yes, I've been to the learning center many times.   I'm going to lose current leftover points and no clue what to do with those.  I know nothing about renting.        Thanks for any input!


----------



## COAIR005

Akward question - but did anyone else get a call from Wyndham Collections in the past few days saying that the CC that was on Auto-Pay was removed from the account back in September and as a result I 'missed 2 mx payments'?

I thought crossed my head that maybe one of the "processes" when they 'locked the account' for that period at the end of August consisted of turning off that autopay, etc. etc.?

Anyway - I ripped the head off the person who called me...eventually that call was taken care of and now I'm back on autopay.

Oh and PS - I'm still "thawed" and the person who promised me a call back 2 weeks ago never called me back.


----------



## am1

I am about to go over the hour mark of waiting on hold for owner care.


----------



## buckor

am1 said:


> I am about to go over the hour mark of waiting on hold for owner care.


The waiting on hold since all this began is ridiculous. When you have to wait over an hour every time you call, it's time for something to change.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## am1

Owner care once again says they cannot help.  I have to speak with a case specialist.  No one answers at the 1-877 number or calls me back when I leave a message.  When they do answer it is not done by a case specialist.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*Hi NiteRN - TUG is the place to learn.*



NiteRN said:


> Just now joined this site and feeling my way around.  I have owned Wyndham points x1.5 yrs- did a guest reserve earlier this year as a first time visit.  I ended up not being sold enough points to do too much with.... so I purchased deeded timeshares from ebay to increase my points.   I'm just regular., no VIPs  ..having no clue what I'm doing really - however.....    I purchased 77,000 and 84,000 points to go with my 128,000.  My next use year (July 1st 2017) now shows that I have 615,500 points for 2017/2018.. I'm guessing my "bonus" points from my purchase are in here now as well (should have 162,000) left of those but they were not supposed to have an expiration date.  But they have disappeared from my summary,  even so all of those numbers do not add up to 615,500.  I am unsure what to do at this point.   This thread has been good insight, however I don't even understand  "OC", "VC" etc....   Wyndham system seems so complicated I feel like a need a coach or mentor to gain understanding.  Yes, I've been to the learning center many times.   I'm going to lose current leftover points and no clue what to do with those.  I know nothing about renting.        Thanks for any input!



**********
Welcome to TUG and you have found the place to learn , and get assistance ,

.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Interesting points Ron.  However, for many of those impacted there is no violation nor extra points, simply points rolled forward for years.  And at least some of the case workers are very apologetic and acknowledge the extreme measures taken and the extraordinary amount of time that has resulted in lost reservations and bloated fees.  While the trust deserves to have some points reserved, the methods used do not fit the state of Florida's standard for timeshares, nor dispute resolution.   It seems some sort of compensation required from Wyndham is inevitable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I don't disagree that some sort of compensation would be the right thing for wyndham to do. And that you should absolutely ask for it.  I just don't think it's gonna happen


----------



## bogey21

am1 said:


> I will expect compensation for that as well as having to wait for over half and hour on the phone to cancel a reservation.



All I can say is "Good Luck".

George


----------



## am1

bogey21 said:


> All I can say is "Good Luck".
> 
> George



Thanks.  It is amazing how companies can do what they do with very little penalty.


----------



## wjappraise

NiteRN said:


> Just now joined this site and feeling my way around.  I have owned Wyndham points x1.5 yrs- did a guest reserve earlier this year as a first time visit.  I ended up not being sold enough points to do too much with.... so I purchased deeded timeshares from ebay to increase my points.   I'm just regular., no VIPs  ..having no clue what I'm doing really - however.....    I purchased 77,000 and 84,000 points to go with my 128,000.  My next use year (July 1st 2017) now shows that I have 615,500 points for 2017/2018.. I'm guessing my "bonus" points from my purchase are in here now as well (should have 162,000) left of those but they were not supposed to have an expiration date.  But they have disappeared from my summary,  even so all of those numbers do not add up to 615,500.  I am unsure what to do at this point.   This thread has been good insight, however I don't even understand  "OC", "VC" etc....   Wyndham system seems so complicated I feel like a need a coach or mentor to gain understanding.  Yes, I've been to the learning center many times.   I'm going to lose current leftover points and no clue what to do with those.  I know nothing about renting.        Thanks for any input!



First of all, welcome to TUG.  Secondly, let me say "Wow, Wyndham has a mess on its hands."  

For some of your questions:  
OC = Owner Care, which is supposed to help resolve issues, but seems more likely to bully us owners with their never-ending changes to our ownership that chips away at rights of ownership.  
VC = Vacation Counselor (or similar), is a phone rep who can assist you with reservations, cancellations, guest name add-ons, ARP (Advance Reservation Priority), etc. 

For your dilemma with having too many points, you can call the Wyndham line and ask that your account be audited and corrected.  But given the cluster mess this caused for so many of us, that might be unwise.  Given the fact that Wyndham did not suspend your account means they did not have the "net" set to your parameters.  Likely this is due to the fact that you only have 325,000 more points than you should (if my math is accurate).  

I have no idea what to suggest if you should self-report or simply trust their accounting and use the points.  It sure seems that Wyndham has a self-created monster problem on their hands.  If you have extra points, start with family and friends that may want to go away to a nice resort before the end of the year.  Holiday times are likely not available but plenty of resorts are available for the rest of the year in some very nice locations.  Hope that helps a bit.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Owner care once again says they cannot help.  I have to speak with a case specialist.  No one answers at the 1-877 number or calls me back when I leave a message.  When they do answer it is not done by a case specialist.



Are you documenting all of this?  Have you opened a complaint with the Florida licensing division, timeshare department?  You would seem to have a very valid case.


----------



## OutSkiing

NiteRN said:


> I'm going to lose current leftover points and no clue what to do with those.  I know nothing about renting.        Thanks for any input!


Welcome to Tug!

Despite this thread on the awful situation going on with big points owners getting horrible treatment during a bazaar audit, most experiences with Vacation Councelers (VC) and Owner Care (OC) are quite good.  If you are an infrequent user of the Wyndham website or the OCs its hard to imagine that you are affected by the 'extra points' issue. I would NOT go asking for an audit.

Don't loose your points .. if you have some unused about to expire you can at least deposit them in your RCI exchange program up to the last day of your use year.

Bob


----------



## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> Are you documenting all of this?  Have you opened a complaint with the Florida licensing division, timeshare department?  You would seem to have a very valid case.



Would be stunned if he wasn't!


----------



## BellaWyn

NiteRN said:


> Just now joined this site and feeling my way around.



Welcome to TUG! 

Plenty here to help with your WYN learning curve. 

Start with the Stickies located above the Forum posting threads. Then search for existing threads related to questions that bubble up. Take it in small bites so your head doesn't explode. Generally, it's a good system except when corporate screws around with our accounts. This is not the best thread to learn how the system works.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> I am having to use full point reservations of up to a week to cover reservations I rented months ago that only use a couple nights of the reservation.  My plan was to book these with a discount/upgrade as well.



This does not sound anything like the vacation Club that Club Wyndham was intended to be.

Where is it written that there is any guarantee of a discount/upgrade?  Nice work, if you can get it, but don't expect it.

I make full point reservations for my vacations of up to a week, and then I use them.  My Club Wyndham and WorldMark ownerships work great for this, and this is all that I expect out of them, and this is all that is guaranteed.


----------



## happyhopian

CO skier said:


> This does not sound anything like the vacation Club that Club Wyndham was intended to be.
> 
> Where is it written that there is any guarantee of a discount/upgrade?  Nice work, if you can get it, but don't expect it.
> 
> I make full point reservations for my vacations of up to a week, and then I use them.  My Club Wyndham and WorldMark ownerships work great for this, and this is all that I expect out of them, and this is all that is guaranteed.



I do the same except I book two. Cancel and rebook one and it I lose it I get the other one. Been doing it for years. I know this irritates you, but it was what sold me on VIP and in fact I got the sales rep to write down for me in 8 steps how to do it on a blank sheet of letterhead!!! Co Skier, you should try it sometime


----------



## CO skier

happyhopian said:


> I do the same except I book two. Cancel and rebook one and it I lose it I get the other one. Been doing it for years. I know this irritates you, but it was what sold me on VIP and in fact I got the sales rep to write down for me in 8 steps how to do it on a blank sheet of letterhead!!! Co Skier, you should try it sometime



As I said, nice that you can get it when you can, and for those who try and don't get it, don't complain to us or the management.


----------



## BellaWyn

CO skier said:


> This does not sound anything like the vacation Club that Club Wyndham was intended to be.



An yet, that's what gets SOLD with the VIP membership. Not the guarantee, but the ability to do the upgrades IF you put effort to to process. 

am1's point is that he currently has no access to VIP benefits or even non-VIP online  options while his account is suspended. He cannot search, modify or make new reservations, and has to hold for well over an hour for reservations to be cancelled or a Guest name to be attached.

If every owner got stuck in that kind of NO SERVICE loop there would be a massive revolt.


----------



## CO skier

BellaWyn said:


> An yet, that's what gets SOLD with the VIP membership. Not the guarantee, but the ability to do the upgrades IF you put effort to to process.
> 
> am1's point is that he currently has no access to VIP benefits or even non-VIP online  options while his account is suspended. He cannot search, modify or make new reservations, and has to hold for well over an hour for reservations to be cancelled or a Guest name to be attached.
> 
> If every owner got stuck in that kind of NO SERVICE loop there would be a massive revolt.



Well, for the 99.9% of owners who did not work themselves into that position, it does not matter.

For us, Club Wyndham is working just fine.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> An yet, that's what gets SOLD with the VIP membership. Not the guarantee, but the ability to do the upgrades IF you put effort to to process.
> 
> am1's point is that he currently has no access to VIP benefits or even non-VIP online  options while his account is suspended. He cannot search, modify or make new reservations, and has to hold for well over an hour for reservations to be cancelled or a Guest name to be attached.
> 
> If every owner got stuck in that kind of NO SERVICE loop there would be a massive revolt.



it isnt even a question of what was "sold"  The issue is that the cancel and rebook trick is something that has been allowed. I could  accept them ending the practice but shouldnt they give fair warning, But more than that,  the cancel and rebook trick isnt (wasnt) the reason for the suspensions, and the resulting audit is taking too long..  not because of cancel and rebook but because they cant figure out what caused the problem in the first place

The audits are almost certainly done, Wyndham knows how many points in our accounts they believe are "extra" and in some cases they know exactly how it happened and they are going to get their points back. But in most  cases. they have no idea, or if they do, they have no idea how to prevent it from happening again

The problem now seems to be that even if they take back their points, the same thing will happen again... extra points will be generated and they have no idea how to fix that.  I tink they are waiting for Voyger and expect that to fix things. 

Cancel and rebook is going to end one day soon, but Wyndham has bigger problems to worry about right now

So AM1, we are going to have to learn how to profit without cancel and rebook, we might as well start now..  and co-skier. rest easy, you will get what you want... no more cancel and rebook....just dont think thats going to bring an end to commercial renting.. it wont.. its only going to shift focus to the most profitable reservations, and bring back the bots


----------



## OutSkiing

am1 said:


> And offer adequate compensation for those affected.  I am having to use full point reservations of up to a week to cover reservations I rented months ago that only use a couple nights of the reservation.  My plan was to book these with a discount/upgrade as well.  I will expect compensation for that as well as having to wait for over half and hour on the phone to cancel a reservation I could do in seconds online.  My hourly rate is not cheap.



With what leverage do you expect to get these things?

I can understand your frustration with the hour long phone holds and with the whole audit process. But what you express here is more like you're expecting to be treated like a good customer in a wholesale vendor relationship.  That is not what Wyndham intended when they invented VIP benefits. It appears they would rather NOT have you as a customer because you are using up supply of good reservations for use by your non-owner customers that would otherwise be available to benefit actual owners.

As Ron has said, better to view what you've had as a good thing while it lasted but not make it an expectation.

Bob


----------



## OutSkiing

ronparise said:


> Cancel and rebook is going to end one day soon, but Wyndham has bigger problems to worry about right now



You seem so positive that cancel/rebook will end.  They still have to provide some significant benefit for VIP owners or else they may as well close down the sales departments since something like 80% of their sales are add-ons to existing ownership. 

What if they tweaked some other aspect that aids renters but not all VIP owners?  What if they simply require guest names to be entered at the time a reservation is made?  That would not adversely affect me at all and I bet 99% of owners either.  Our reservations are always for ourselves, my in-laws or our nephews.  Wouldn't most non-renting owners be similar? Or maybe limit the number of times we change guests in an account to allow for those times when uncle Eddy can't make it but ant Ann can.

Bob


----------



## am1

OutSkiing said:


> With what leverage do you expect to get these things?
> 
> I can understand your frustration with the hour long phone holds and with the whole audit process. But what you express here is more like you're expecting to be treated like a good customer in a wholesale vendor relationship.  That is not what Wyndham intended when they invented VIP benefits. It appears they would rather NOT have you as a customer because you are using up supply of good reservations for use by your non-owner customers that would otherwise be available to benefit actual owners.
> 
> As Ron has said, better to view what you've had as a good thing while it lasted but not make it an expectation.
> 
> Bob



69 minutes on just now.  I am not a customer but an owner.  I expect to be treated fairly and legally. I do not see that happening.  In the past I have been someone that has suggested to others that a VIP retail purchase can work now I would not suggest even purchasing resale.  No one has any idea what is next but it will not be good for any owner resale, retail, vip, mega renter or any other group.


----------



## am1

Today no one is even staffing the 1-877 number.  Owner care is unwilling to help.  They say they have no ability to do anything in the account.  Why am i still paying program fees?


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Today no one is even staffing the 1-877 number.  Owner care is unwilling to help.  They say they have no ability to do anything in the account.  Why am i still paying program fees?


Adam - Did you account at least get a partial thaw?  If so, try calling the normal phone line and simply ask them to do what you need.  If you have not been sufficiently "thawed" to that point, then open a formal complaint with the state of Florida, specific directions included earlier on this thread.  

You can also contact Greg at National Timeshare Owner Association, email address at greg@ntoassoc.com.  And you can send in a formal complaint to Peter Roth at ARDA, email address at proth@arda.org.  Make sure to cc acctinfo@wyn.com so that Wyndham knows that you are escalating the involvement.  They especially seem to chafe when arda.org is looking over their shoulder.   I hope this helps.  I wish we could do more.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> Well, for the 99.9% of owners who did not work themselves into that position, it does not matter.
> 
> For us, Club Wyndham is working just fine.



Wow, how very myopic of you!  If you would carefully read this and other current threads, you will clearly see that Wyndham has HUGE problems.  The fact it has not impacted you YET does not mean it has no impact on 99.9% of the owners.  Let me give the Reader's Digest condensed version to minimize the amount of actual reading expected.

- Numerous owners have not been able to credit pool their points.
- Numerous owners have been required to pay two or three times to credit pool.
- A new owner has 325,000 extra points that are unexplained.
- Some owners have been audited when credit pooling. 
- Some owners cannot use ARP correctly.
- Numerous owners have had their use years realigned without notice. 
- Some owners have received notice new contracts have been added to their account when nothing was purchased.
- The online reservation system does not operate consistently.
- Rooms that should be available at popular resorts don't exist except at Extra Holidays.

I could go on and on, but I doubt you have read this far anyway.  This is a serious thread and your serving as the resident "troll" is not appreciated.  Please refrain from commenting if you are simply going to act as a shill for Wyndham, as if you are either a Wyndham employee or have a full dose of the Wyndham KoolAid running through your veins.  

I do not always agree with the combative nature or approach of am1, but I share his frustration and I try to help, just as I have been helped by this thread and other threads, but not by you.  am1, ronparise, and many others who are impacted by this debacle have been of great help to all of us in this community for years.  But, you offer no help, so please just ignore this thread (or the bulletin board entirely) and enjoy your non-impacted (for now) ownership.


----------



## alexadeparis

wjappraise said:


> Wow, how very myopic of you!  If you would carefully read this and other current threads, you will clearly see that Wyndham has HUGE problems.  The fact it has not impacted you YET does not mean it has no impact on 99.9% of the owners.  Let me give the Reader's Digest condensed version to minimize the amount of actual reading expected.
> 
> - Numerous owners have not been able to credit pool their points.
> - Numerous owners have been required to pay two or three times to credit pool.
> - A new owner has 325,000 extra points that are unexplained.
> - Some owners have been audited when credit pooling.
> - Some owners cannot use ARP correctly.
> - Numerous owners have had their use years realigned without notice.
> - Some owners have received notice new contracts have been added to their account when nothing was purchased.
> - The online reservation system does not operate consistently.
> - Rooms that should be available at popular resorts don't exist except at Extra Holidays.
> 
> I could go on and on, but I doubt you have read this far anyway.  This is a serious thread and your serving as the resident "troll" is not appreciated.  Please refrain from commenting if you are simply going to act as a shill for Wyndham, as if you are either a Wyndham employee or have a full dose of the Wyndham KoolAid running through your veins.
> 
> I do not always agree with the combative nature or approach of am1, but I share his frustration and I try to help, just as I have been helped by this thread and other threads, but not by you.  am1, ronparise, and many others who are impacted by this debacle have been of great help to all of us in this community for years.  But, you offer no help, so please just ignore this thread (or the bulletin board entirely) and enjoy your non-impacted (for now) ownership.



My individual ownership hasn't been impacted by this thread, but I am VERY disturbed by how Wyndham is treating the few percentage of owners that have literally paid them in the range of $100,000, only to now be treated like they are stealing. If they mistreat people that gave them tons of money, how will they treat me in the future, as someone who gave them NO money other than ongoing MF?  

 If they have IT problems or accounting problems or staffing problems (or insert whatever excuse you want) then they need to fix them. Period, end of story. 

We are paying collectively millions a month for MF for units that for some people cannot be booked and systems to facilitate those reservations that are not accurate. Yet Wyndham still gets their management fee even though they can't find their ass with both hands. 

Wyndham isn't doing these owners right, and they should be ashamed of the treatment of OWNERS that aren't being allowed to use what they own because the MANAGEMENT is confused. Seriously, it has been MONTHS! WTF?!?!?!


----------



## ronparise

OutSkiing said:


> You seem so positive that cancel/rebook will end.  They still have to provide some significant benefit for VIP owners or else they may as well close down the sales departments since something like 80% of their sales are add-ons to existing ownership.
> 
> What if they tweaked some other aspect that aids renters but not all VIP owners?  What if they simply require guest names to be entered at the time a reservation is made?  That would not adversely affect me at all and I bet 99% of owners either.  Our reservations are always for ourselves, my in-laws or our nephews.  Wouldn't most non-renting owners be similar? Or maybe limit the number of times we change guests in an account to allow for those times when uncle Eddy can't make it but ant Ann can.
> 
> Bob


Yes, Im really sure the cancel and rebook trick will be brought under control. The wyndham folks that interrogated me in Sept, were really interested in how that worked. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that Co-skier is the the name one of them uses here on TUG

I dont think they ever understood just how much renting is going on, but they are learning through this whole suspensions and audit thing.  Im convinced that they want to bring an end end to large scale commercial renting. And they know after auditing my accounts that the only thing that makes large scale commercial renting profitable is the cancel and rebook trick... So connect the dots, Wyndham has... 

Putting an end to the cancel and rebook trick will not be taking away any benefit of a VIP ownership.  You will still be allowed to cancel, and you will still be able  to make reservations from available inventory, inside 60 days of check in, at a discount

What will change is the ability to create your own availability.  I dont know how they will do it, but Im sure they will


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

*How did it work before owners could do there own booking online?*



ronparise said:


> Yes, Im really sure the cancel and rebook trick will be brought under control. The wyndham folks that interrogated me in Sept, were really interested in how that worked. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that Co-skier is the the name one of them uses here on TUG
> 
> I dont think they ever understood just how much renting is going on, but they are learning through this whole suspensions and audit thing.  Im convinced that they want to bring an end end to large scale commercial renting. And they know after auditing my accounts that the only thing that makes large scale commercial renting profitable is the cancel and rebook trick... So connect the dots, Wyndham has...
> 
> Putting an end to the cancel and rebook trick will not be taking away any benefit of a VIP ownership.  You will still be allowed to cancel, and you will still be able  to make reservations from available inventory, inside 60 days of check in, at a discount
> 
> What will change is the ability to create your own availability.  I dont know how they will do it, but Im sure they will



************

As a non Wyndham owner I am curious how all of this worked before owners could do their own online reservations ? 

My outsider / TUG reader interpretation goes like this :

1) one day Mr. Wyndham ceo or cfo had a thought - "if we let the customers do their own reservations we can get rid of a bunch of call center staff and increase our profits and make the shareholders happy ( and collect my bonus )

2) IT  was put in charge of the programming - and since they are computer folks - who love an efficient & fast system - they did it in a way that allowed you to "recapture" your own canceled reservation - before it hit the ground .
( most of the time ) 

3) Sales found out - and turned it into their "best feature" when trying to upgrade an existing owner .

Each of these Wyndham SILOS did what they were asked - without anyone really thinking about " the big picture" 

Fast forward to Aug 24 2016 - when bobdaz started this thread .

******
Back to my question - once upon a time  - when everyone called in to book their vacation - how did it work ? 

******
By the way where I own - Vidanta - Mayan - that is still how it works 

you call and a nice reservation employee in Nuevo Vallarta helps you .
easier to do - when you pay in pesos and get MF in dollars .

******
I agree with Ron - changes are coming . 
I also agree  with him -  that renting is not going to end - just change .

.


----------



## ronparise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> ************
> 
> As a non Wyndham owner I am curious how all of this worked before owners could do their own online reservations ?
> 
> My outsider / TUG reader interpretation goes like this :
> 
> 1) one day Mr. Wyndham ceo or cfo had a thought - "if we let the customers do their own reservations we can get rid of a bunch of call center staff and increase our profits and make the shareholders happy ( and collect my bonus )
> 
> 2) IT  was put in charge of the programming - and since they are computer folks - who love an efficient & fast system - they did it in a way that allowed you to "recapture" your own canceled reservation - before it hit the ground .
> ( most of the time )
> 
> 3) Sales found out - and turned it into their "best feature" when trying to upgrade an existing owner .
> 
> Each of these Wyndham SILOS did what they were asked - without anyone really thinking about " the big picture"
> 
> Fast forward to Aug 24 2016 - when bobdaz started this thread .
> 
> ******
> Back to my question - once upon a time  - when everyone called in to book their vacation - how did it work ?
> 
> ******
> By the way where I own - Vidanta - Mayan - that is still how it works
> 
> you call and a nice reservation employee in Nuevo Vallarta helps you .
> easier to do - when you pay in pesos and get MF in dollars .
> 
> ******
> I agree with Ron - changes are coming .
> I also agree  with him -  that renting is not going to end - just change .
> 
> .



I have no idea how things worked before on -line reservations. That was before my time. I may be old but I'm new to timeshares Its only been 6 years

You are off base in one regard. Money saved in operating the program and money saved operating the resorts doesn't put any money in  wyndhams pocket


----------



## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> Wow, how very myopic of you!  If you would carefully read this and other current threads, you will clearly see that Wyndham has HUGE problems.  The fact it has not impacted you YET does not mean it has no impact on 99.9% of the owners.  Let me give the Reader's Digest condensed version to minimize the amount of actual reading expected.
> 
> - Numerous owners have not been able to credit pool their points.
> - Numerous owners have been required to pay two or three times to credit pool.
> - A new owner has 325,000 extra points that are unexplained.
> - Some owners have been audited when credit pooling.
> - Some owners cannot use ARP correctly.
> - Numerous owners have had their use years realigned without notice.
> - Some owners have received notice new contracts have been added to their account when nothing was purchased.
> - The online reservation system does not operate consistently.
> - Rooms that should be available at popular resorts don't exist except at Extra Holidays.
> 
> I could go on and on, but I doubt you have read this far anyway.  This is a serious thread and your serving as the resident "troll" is not appreciated.  Please refrain from commenting if you are simply going to act as a shill for Wyndham, as if you are either a Wyndham employee or have a full dose of the Wyndham KoolAid running through your veins.
> 
> I do not always agree with the combative nature or approach of am1, but I share his frustration and I try to help, just as I have been helped by this thread and other threads, but not by you.  am1, ronparise, and many others who are impacted by this debacle have been of great help to all of us in this community for years.  But, you offer no help, so please just ignore this thread (or the bulletin board entirely) and enjoy your non-impacted (for now) ownership.




Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for speaking up! I really appreciate the help this site offers and it bothers me to see misinformation and an attitude that fosters divisiveness between the different levels of ownership spread. There has been a time or two that I posted something and others corrected me on it. It doesn't bother me to own my mistakes and when I was corrected I figured others might also learn something too. Learning the ins and outs of the Wyndham system can be quite a challenge and the purpose of this site is to help each other. It isn't unusual for people to air their gripes or problems and sometimes they just want to be heard. But when a person repeatedly airs their prejudiced views even after our most knowledgeable members have refuted/corrected them I really have to wonder. Talk about haters gotta hate! You are not the first person to point out the fallacy in this person's remarks or wonder if he/she is a Wyndham shill. 

The OP has made remarks in his posts accusing Gold/Platinum/Presidential Reserve owners of wrong doing, abuse of the system, etc. I wish I could remember the person who posted one of my favorite replies trying to explain that when you only spend the money to buy resale or minimal developer points you get a bottom of the line or at best a midsize Ford or Chevy. When you purchase points directly from Wyndham, developer points, and purchase enough to be Platinum or Presidential Reserve you get a top of the line BMW, Lexus or even a Ferrari. That person told him to quit whining because his "Ford" isn't getting the VIP benefits he whines about; the people who get the VIP benefits paid a high price to have them. Without these VIP benefits there is absolutely no reason for anyone to purchase developer points directly from Wyndham. 

We don't have any resale contracts at this time but thanks to the people who post on TUG we plan to purchase a resale contract. We have owned Wyndham for 15 years, when they were still Fairfield, and attended sales presentations for two years prior to our first purchase. We cannot remember ever going to a presentation/update that the sales people haven't gone over the cancel/rebook/upgrade "privilege" as they have called it and they also discussed renting to help with the maintenance fees. This is why we and others bought developer points even when we learned that buying resale was an option. A seller cannot repeatedly, over an extended period of years, openly market and sell a product making claims and then fall back on "it's not in the contract" or "that's not how we intended the system to work" even though that is EXACTLY what they said. There are certain legalities involved when employees of a company make claims/promises on behalf of the company especially when those employees were making those claims/promises as instructed by the chain of command within the company to promote/sell the product. 

In regards to this frozen account situation, while there may be a few people who are frozen that have knowingly done something they shouldn't have, others who are frozen did not. I'm not frozen but I am still offended on behalf of those who are by the OP "they got what they deserve" attitude/remarks. 

In response to the OP remarks about the mega renters; the OP believes that the rest of us would all benefit if Wyndham put a stop to these mega renters and I did wonder since many of them are frozen if the availability would improve. But since the freeze I have had more trouble than I have ever had finding reservations. Anyone is welcome to correct me but I don't see the difference between the mega renters and what Wyndham does with Extra Holidays and pulling inventory to sell. It seems to me to be a double standard for Wyndham to say an owner cannot do what they, Wyndham, are doing. If or maybe I should say when the changes to the VIP program come that impact the mega renters, I just hope they are truly for the benefit of the overall ownership not primarily and deceptively designed to mainly put more money in Wyndham's coffers by protecting Extra Holidays, sales and other income opportunities for Wyndham.

Finally a quick question. I saw a post where someone said something about the mega renter bots being back. Isn't having to select the pictures to make a reservation and periodically in the search process effective in controlling the use of the bots?


----------



## bnoble

OutSkiing said:


> You seem so positive that cancel/rebook will end.  They still have to provide some significant benefit for VIP owners or else they may as well close down the sales departments since something like 80% of their sales are add-ons to existing ownership.


VIP discounts and upgrades will certainly continue. However, the ability to cancel a unit inside the discount window and have it appear in inventory immediately to be re-booked at the discount probably won't.

The former is all that Sales needs to push VIP. The latter is a helpful tool to the savvy. Most people buying from the developers are, to put it charitably, not savvy.


----------



## am1

Before the current online system there was another online system which makes the current one look amazing.  Screenshots are on computers that no longer function.

One could see all inventory available at a resort for the dates searched for.  It made taking out the inventory in between very easy to do.  If there was too much inventory then booking the inventory and canceling would make it disappear until the next morning.  Upgrades had to be done over the phone.  The VCs at the time thought I was very lucky to get the upgrades I did.  The call center was open much longer hours and for a brief moment the website would open before the call center so I would have to hold upgrades for an hour online before I could call in to get reservations upgraded.  If I had too many that morning then book some of the reservations I wanted to upgrade to at half the regular points and cancel it so I could try to do it the next morning.  Saturday and Sunday the call center opened two hours later  so were not good days to do upgrading.  This was in June of 2008 or 2009?? and did not last long.  Either the website started opening when the call center did or the nw website allowed us to do upgrades.    

Unlimited free guest conformations were great.  But I was happy when cancelled points that could only be used within 30 days to check in went away but with cancel/rebooking not a big deal.   Do not completely remember how that worked.  

I am not sure how Wyndham can get rid of cancel and rebook.  Even if they make it cancel, wait a random amount of time and rebook/upgrade.  I would beat that easily and with needing the use of a bot.


----------



## bnoble

> I am not sure how Wyndham can get rid of cancel and rebook


Wait list, with limited entries per account. This is exactly what DVC does and it would end cancel/rebook on nearly all in-demand reservations.


----------



## buckor

bnoble said:


> VIP discounts and upgrades will certainly continue. However, the ability to cancel a unit inside the discount window and have it appear in inventory immediately to be re-booked at the discount probably won't.
> 
> The former is all that Sales needs to push VIP. The latter is a helpful tool to the savvy. Most people buying from the developers are, to put it charitably, not savvy.


I attended an owner's update my last two resort stays...i was offered jobs by the sales managers because of the knowledge about the product I have (Thank you TUG and many on here for the advice!). I was told, "for being an owner less than a year you know more than most that have owned for 20 or 30 years...and even some of our more experienced sales staff." I told them about TUG and we moved on. That said...

One sales manager was too happy to tell me the cancel/rebook trick to maximize my points...even the whole booking two units at 13 months with ARP to use for cancel/rebook. I explained that the current trip I was on I had booked a 2BR Presidential, saw a studio come available in the upgrade window, so I cancelled, booked the studio, and upgraded to the 2 BR Presidential. He was flabbergasted...(again, thank you TUG).

So, yes, the sales folks are selling cancel/rebook as a perk of VIP, if only face to face at the desk. And, TUG obviously has a wealth of knowledge and I am glad to be learning!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


----------



## BellaWyn

bnoble said:


> Wait list, with limited entries per account. This is exactly what DVC does and it would end cancel/rebook on nearly all in-demand reservations.



Does DVC have the same volume of owners or locations that Wyndham has?  

If they thought wait list would be effective in our system they would have brought it back a long time ago.  People have been asking for it to be brought back into the system for years with no results. Wait list would be nuts to manage and mega renters would figure out how to get to the top of the lists, if only because they spend the time and put the effort into figuring it out. 



wjappraise said:


> Wow, how very myopic of you!



SO much more articulately said than my first knee-jerk response to Co-Skier's idiot and shortsighted comment.  I resisted posting because I knew someone would followup with something significantly better.


----------



## Bigrob

Jan M. said:


> Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
> 
> I think the site moderators should ask/warn CO skier from posting any more open or veiled remarks about VIP benefits and mega renters. Talk about haters gotta hate, he just will not let any opportunity pass to spread misinformation and his prejudices. Others have posted replies to his posts pointing out the fallacy in his thinking and remarks and have also accused him of being a Wyndham shill.
> 
> I wish I could remember the person who posted one of my favorite remarks trying to explain to him that when you only spend the money to buy resale or minimal developer points you get a bottom of the line or at best a midsize Ford or Chevy. When you purchase points directly from Wyndham, developer points, and purchase enough to be Platinum or Presidential Reserve you get a top of the line BMW, Lexus or even a Ferrari. That person told him to quit whining because his "Ford" isn't getting the VIP benefits he whines about; the people who get the VIP benefits paid a high price to have them. Without these VIP benefits there is absolutely no reason for anyone to purchase developer points directly from Wyndham.
> 
> We don't have any resale contracts at this time but thanks to the people who post on TUG we plan to purchase a resale contract. We have owned Wyndham for 15 years, when they were still Fairfield, and attended two presentations in the two years prior to our first purchase. We cannot remember ever going to a presentation/update that the sales people haven't gone over the cancel/rebook/upgrade "privilege" as they have called it and they also discussed renting to help with the maintenance fees. This is why we and others bought developer points even when we knew buying resale was an option. CO skier's posts not just hinting but outright accusing Gold/Platinum/Presidential Reserve owners of wrong doing, abuse of the system, etc are highly offensive and ignorant. A seller cannot repeatedly over an extended period of years openly market and sell a product making claims and then fall back on "it's not in the contract" or "that's not how we intented the system to work" even thought that is EXACTLY what they said.
> 
> Many of you will know that this is true. There are certain legalities involved when employees of a company make claims/promises on behalf of the company especially when those employees were making those claims/promises as instructed by the chain of command within the company to promote/sell the product.
> 
> In response to CO skier's attacks on the mega sellers; I too sometimes find it hard to find reservations and compete with the big sellers. But there is absolutely no difference in what they are doing than Wyndham Extra Holidays and Wyndham pulling inventory to sell.



While I don't agree with some of the things Co Skier posts, I also believe he has as much right to post his views as anyone else. Certainly we are not all going to agree on everything. 

I also do not believe Co Skier is a Wyndham shill. I take him at his word, that he is a Wyndham owner that uses his ownership in a manner that works for him - making his reservations using his ARP and then enjoying his stay. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, and we actually should all be grateful for good owners that pay their maintenance fees and use/enjoy their timeshare.

While I think Wyndham could have handled it better, I do understand their need to rectify the current situation. And while I also believe they are quite keen to protect their own bottom line, I also do think they are looking to protect the interests of the majority of owners, who are not using their ownerships as profit-generating enterprises. 

I originally thought Wyndham might view mega-renters neutrally, viewing the relationship as at least somewhat symbiotic. It's now quite clear that is not the case. Therefore, it is likely that changes will continue to be made that:

1) protect the interests of the majority of owners
2) protect the value of VIP ownership
3) limits mega-renting activity.

I'm sure that extensive evaluations for achieving these objectives have been performed and changes will be rolled out shortly with the intent to achieve them.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Does DVC have the same volume of owners or locations that Wyndham has?
> 
> If they thought wait list would be effective in our system they would have brought it back a long time ago.  People have been asking for it to be brought back into the system for years with no results. Wait list would be nuts to manage and mega renters would figure out how to get to the top of the lists, if only because they spend the time and put the effort into figuring it out.
> 
> 
> 
> SO much more articulately said than my first knee-jerk response to Co-Skier's idiot and shortsighted comment.  I resisted posting because I knew someone would followup with something significantly better.



Worldmark the Club, is managed by Wyndham and they have a waitlist there. So I dont think it would be too difficult to introduce in Club Wyndham. As we see in another thread they are able to keep cancelled reservations from going back into the pool of available inventory

we may not like it but but Wyndham agrees with Co-Skier. Cancel and rebook. is gonna end one day


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> Worldmark the Club, is managed by Wyndham and they have a waitlist there. So I dont think it would be too difficult to introduce in Club Wyndham. As we see in another thread they are able to keep cancelled reservations from going back into the pool of available inventory
> 
> we may not like it but but Wyndham agrees with Co-Skier. Cancel and rebook. is gonna end one day



Even with a wait list I will work around it.  For no other reason then I have to.  

Wyndham is a lot bigger then Worldmark.  They may be able to do it but it ill be harder.


----------



## Roger830

Bigrob said:


> I also do not believe Co Skier is a Wyndham shill. I take him at his word, that he is a Wyndham owner that uses his ownership in a manner that works for him - making his reservations using his ARP and then enjoying his stay. There is certainly nothing wrong with that



Co Skier has been here for 4 years, I never had any inclination that he was connected with Wyndham other than as a member. 

I recall years back that he often spoke about how Wyndham points would always be available at low cost for resale buyers. I can't imagine Wyndham promoting that concept.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Roger830 said:


> Co Skier has been here for 4 years, I never had any inclination that he was connected with Wyndham other than as a member.
> 
> I recall years back that he often spoke about how Wyndham points would always be available at low cost for resale buyers. I can't imagine Wyndham promoting that concept.



And if his points are resale then of course he books everything full points -- cancel/rebook wouldn't apply.  If I wasn't VIP I'd be booking asap and be done, too.  

Anyone buying resale and then slamming VIPs that purchased at developer prices for taking advantage of their benefits has no credibility with me.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Even with a wait list I will work around it.  For no other reason then I have to.
> 
> Wyndham is a lot bigger then Worldmark.  They may be able to do it but it ill be harder.



you have been doing this for some time, and have shown an ability to adjust and adapt to changing rules and regulations, Not everyone will be as nimble.

 I expect to be able to adjust too.  by  transitioning  from a wholesaler of points to travel agencies, (the points managers)  to become a  timeshare brokerage business with a boutique rental business on the side.


----------



## bogey21

ronparise said:


> I expect to be able to adjust too.  by  transitioning  from a wholesaler of points to travel agencies, (the points managers)  to become a  timeshare brokerage business with a boutique rental business on the side.



Ron, I like your approach.  You aren't bitching.  You are watching what is happening, realizing that you will have to accept it, and figuring out what changes you will have to make to minimize its impact on you.  Good luck.

George


----------



## Roger830

Sandi Bo said:


> And if his points are resale then of course he books everything full points -- cancel/rebook wouldn't apply.  If I wasn't VIP I'd be booking asap and be done, too.
> 
> Anyone buying resale and then slamming VIPs that purchased at developer prices for taking advantage of their benefits has no credibility with me.



I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 days prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.


----------



## am1

Roger830 said:


> Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.



And whose fault is that?  Drag a few salesmen into a courtroom and ask them if they ever sold a vip purchase using cancel and rebook and it is not going to make Wyndham look good if they later decided to harass owners that did just that.


----------



## bnoble

You've been at this long enough to know that the sales contract is more or less bulletproof when it comes to verbal vs written representations.


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.



thanks George 
I don't have the experience that you do but I have learned that I do better when I roll with the punches rather than when I dig  in and punch back


----------



## Roger830

am1 said:


> And whose fault is that?  Drag a few salesmen into a courtroom and ask them if they ever sold a vip purchase using cancel and rebook and it is not going to make Wyndham look good if they later decided to harass owners that did just that.



You are well aware that it's the nature of the business is to hoodwink the prospect. Look at the post on the Mexico board pointed out in the latest TUG newsletter, 2 weeks for a bargain price of $85,900. Often in comments to the Scoup piece on Inside the Gate website, the weasels joke about the deals that they make.


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.



Similar to that is the benefit of credit pooling available to all owners.  

The book says that if you know you won't be able to use all your points one  year you can put those points into the pool and use them in the future.  ie you can bank points or push points into the future

The way I used it is a little different. I would take future years points and use them now.  Ie I would pull future points into the present

I don't think what I did was an an intended benefit

Think about it  
I was able to enjoy 3 years worth of vacations before I paid my first years MF

I would look forward to some change to the pool. Perhaps requiring that the fees for future years be paid before they can go into the pool


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 days prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.



It's not a benefit spelled out in the book but the ability to cancel a reservation without penalty up to 15 days before check in, is a benefit

And that cancelled reservations go right back into inventory; available to us all is a feature of the reservation system

And the VIP discount for reservations made inside 60 days is a benefit spelled out in the book

It seems to me that cancel and rebook at a discount iare two separate and distinct benefits and they are both spelled out in the book

It's the unintended consequence of doing these things one right after the other that is the problem

So how to fix it? Break the reservations system so that cancelled reservations don't come back right away.  I'm suggesting they go into a "holding tank" to be released back to available inventory on a random basis


----------



## Roger830

ronparise said:


> The book says that if you know you won't be able to use all your points one  year you can put those points into the pool and use them in the future.  ie you can bank points or push points into the future
> 
> The way I used it is a little different. I would take future years points and use them now.  Ie I would pull future points into the present
> 
> I don't think what I did was an an intended benefit
> 
> Think about it
> I was able to enjoy 3 years worth of vacations before I paid my first years MF
> 
> I would look forward to some change to the pool. Perhaps requiring that the fees for future years be paid before they can go into the pool



I credit pooled my unused 2017 points in June so I could book a day in NY with those and a small number of left over 2016 points. I also wondered why they let us pool 2018 points now and use them this year or next at no mf fee.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> Worldmark the Club, is managed by Wyndham and they have a waitlist there. So I dont think it would be too difficult to introduce in Club Wyndham. As we see in another thread they are able to keep cancelled reservations from going back into the pool of available inventory



Worldmark The Club may be Managed by Wyndham but it is still a different type of ownership, a smaller group of properties and owner base and separate inventory tracking system.  It has always been a point-based system.  Additionally, waitlist has always been a part of the Worldmark system.  

Worldmark also does not have the same VIP discounts in their system so there is a lot less cancellation happening, if only because of the significant difference in the volume of transactions. Being both a Worldmark and a Wyndham owner Ron you know that navigating the two data bases are not exactly the same. 

Waitlist used to be an option back in the Fairfield days.  They took it away and have never brought it back for what I am sure is a plethora of complexities it would invite.  But even if they do bring it back......  Those heavily invested in getting to the top of the lists will PUT EFFORT into getting there. The average Wyndham owner just wants to log on, find a vacation and move on. It will be the same small handful of invested owners that will be on those lists regularly.   Waitlist still doesn't solve it for the masses and will only become a minor inconvenience for owners and point managers that are using the system on a continuum.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> So how to fix it? Break the reservations system so that cancelled reservations don't come back right away.  I'm suggesting they go into a "holding tank" to be released back to available inventory on a random basis



How does this actually "fix" the cancel / rebook process?  Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern.  You think that those heavily invested won't eventually figure that out or, at the very least, still won't eventually work to the advantage of those that are in the system from open to close daily?  If bots actually exist then it wouldn't slow that process down either?  

The masses, again, would not be represented in this kind of fix.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

*November 6 - this thread - passes 70,000 views*

70307 views -Sunday Nov. 6 2016 - 8 pm eastern time

74 Days since bobdaz started this TUG thread 

856 - posts


WOW 

.


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## wjappraise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> 70307 views -Sunday Nov. 6 2016 - 8 pm eastern time
> 
> 74 Days since bobdaz started this TUG thread
> 
> 856 - posts
> 
> 
> WOW
> 
> .





Amazing.  My account has been suspended in whole or in part for 20% of the year.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> How does this actually "fix" the cancel / rebook process?  Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern.  You think that those heavily invested won't eventually figure that out or, at the very least, still won't eventually work to the advantage of those that are in the system from open to close daily?  If bots actually exist then it wouldn't slow that process down either?
> 
> The masses, again, would not be represented in this kind of fix.



Ok you don't like a waitlist. Do it this way.  Change the cancellation  policy to match the discount policy.  

Cancelations inside 15 days lose your points
Cancellations 15 to 60 days lose half the points
Cancellations up to 60 days out get all your points back

Or allow the discount only for points that are actually VIP qualified 

im sure you are right there will be certain determined folks that will figure out a way to make the system work for them


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> Ok you don't like a waitlist. Do it this way.  Change the cancellation  policy to match the discount policy.
> 
> Cancelations inside 15 days lose your points *<-- already in place*
> Cancellations 15 to 60 days lose half the points *<-- this effects more than just VIP, effects all ownerships*
> Cancellations up to 60 days out get all your points back *<-- ditto #2 above*
> 
> Or allow the discount only for points that are actually VIP qualified  *<-- would not slow down mega-renters or point managers who already currently use VIP qualified points and would further be muddied when pooled points come into play.*
> 
> im sure you are right there will be certain determined folks that will figure out a way to make the system work for them



Do not dislike waitlist. For the size of the ownership base and volume of properties (aka shear number of annual transactions and management of the inventories) wait list would be tough to manage and overall would still not even the playing field for the masses (is this the motivation WYN is going after?).

To be clear, not advocating for one method over another.  Merely pointing out that all of the suggested "solutions" don't actually even out the playing field for the masses. And most, at some point, would backfire and work to the advantage of the small handful of users WYN supposedly intends to try to slow down.  Not to mention really piss off a lot of long time owners that would have to re-learn a system that already has a fairly hefty learning curve.

WYN is having a really difficult time accurately tracking owner points AND inventories in the current system.  Introduce massive rule changes in a system where accounting for the point usage is already a problem only invites more problems.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Do not dislike waitlist. For the size of the ownership base and volume of properties (aka shear number of annual transactions and management of the inventories) wait list would be tough to manage and overall would still not even the playing field for the masses (is this the motivation WYN is going after?).
> 
> To be clear, not advocating for one method over another.  Merely pointing out that all of the suggested "solutions" don't actually even out the playing field for the masses. And most, at some point, would backfire and work to the advantage of the small handful of users WYN supposedly intends to try to slow down.  Not to mention really piss off a lot of long time owners that would have to re-learn a system that already has a fairly hefty learning curve.
> 
> WYN is having a really difficult time accurately tracking owner points AND inventories in the current system.  Introduce massive rule changes in a system where accounting for the point usage is already a problem only invites more problems.



Please understand I'm not suggesting that my ideas will work or even that they should be tried.  I'm not even suggesting that cancel and rebook is a problem.  All I'm saying is that Wyndham is going to do something to try to end the practice of cancel and rebook

Of course any changes will effect all owners.  That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept

The operative word in the cancel and rebook strategy is "AND"
Cancellations  are and will be allowed.

And

Booking reservations for a discount will still be allowed

The question for the folks inside Wyndham that will be working on this is "how do we get the "and" out of the equation.


We have been through this before. When guest fees were introduced it effected all owners   When the 10 nightly limit was introduced it didn't stop the points managers. It doesn't matter  Wyndham is going to keep trying to control the mega renters.  Some of the things they do will not work and everything they do will have un intended consequences.  

Speaking only for myself: I anticipate that something will happen in the next few years regarding cancel and rebook that will impact my rental business. So I'm proactively making changes in what I do to to insure my survival no matter what that something might be.  Others can ignore my rants and do what they want

Expect the best but plan for the worst


----------



## paxsarah

BellaWyn said:


> Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern.



Does it? I don't think it does. I don't think it would be too difficult (I mean, this is Wyndham IT we're talking about, but let's suspend our disbelief for a second) to develop an algorithm in which a cancelled reservation is released back into inventory at some randomly generated time during operating hours in the next five days, say. Even if someone knows that the reservation will reappear sometime in the next five days (the "pattern"), there are 80+ continuous hours that the person would have to monitor to catch it.

Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.


----------



## wjappraise

paxsarah said:


> Does it? I don't think it does. I don't think it would be too difficult (I mean, this is Wyndham IT we're talking about, but let's suspend our disbelief for a second) to develop an algorithm in which a cancelled reservation is released back into inventory at some randomly generated time during operating hours in the next five days, say. Even if someone knows that the reservation will reappear sometime in the next five days (the "pattern"), there are 80+ continuous hours that the person would have to monitor to catch it.
> 
> Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.



Good point, however, I do not believe Wyndham IT has sufficient acumen to handle the task.  This morning, my point status showing points available for each of my staggered use year amounts, has not been updated since Saturday.  As most will note, the status does not update on Sunday, but it does update every day other than Sunday.  And it will typically show the updated balances as early as 5:00 or 6:00am.  But not today, it still shows what I had as of Saturday morning.  This despite the fact I cancelled numerous reservations and made others.  The available points when I attempt to book another is accurate, but not the "points status" balance accounting.  

Just another example of the ineptitude that exists in this particular Silo of Wyndham.  And it is likely one that impacts the rest of the owners today.


----------



## raygo123

wjappraise said:


> Good point, however, I do not believe Wyndham IT has sufficient acumen to handle the task.  This morning, my point status showing points available for each of my staggered use year amounts, has not been updated since Saturday.  As most will note, the status does not update on Sunday, but it does update every day other than Sunday.  And it will typically show the updated balances as early as 5:00 or 6:00am.  But not today, it still shows what I had as of Saturday morning.  This despite the fact I cancelled numerous reservations and made others.  The available points when I attempt to book another is accurate, but not the "points status" balance accounting.
> 
> Just another example of the ineptitude that exists in this particular Silo of Wyndham.  And it is likely one that impacts the rest of the owners today.


It depends on how Wyndham corporate allocates resources.  If it is done by corporate as a whole, there are much more resources available for the task than if the timeshare division has to fend for themselves

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## am1

Returning cancelled reservations up to 5 days later puts a lag time in anyone being able to rebook those units.  Maybe within 24 hrs of cancellation.  

The problem Wyndham has and has always seem to have is whoever is making these decisions really has no idea what is going on.  What they come up with may sound good around the boardroom but in practice does not work.  

Not that I am lobbying for a job but everyone has a price.


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## wjappraise

raygo123 said:


> It depends on how Wyndham corporate allocates resources.  If it is done by corporate as a whole, there are much more resources available for the task than if the timeshare division has to fend for themselves
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Well stated.  It is hard to believe that a Fortune 500 company has fallen into such a state of confusion simply due to its IT department ineptitude.  From my perspective, it appears that Wyndham has focused on limiting larger owners (mega renters) to the point where they have designed a patchwork program that is full of glitches.  It almost seems that they should scrap the program and build from the ground up.  And stop outsmarting themselves.


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> Well stated.  It is hard to believe that a Fortune 500 company has fallen into such a state of confusion simply due to its IT department ineptitude.  From my perspective, it appears that Wyndham has focused on limiting larger owners (mega renters) to the point where they have designed a patchwork program that is full of glitches.  It almost seems that they should scrap the program and build from the ground up.  And stop outsmarting themselves.



Is it the IT departments fault or the people higher up who deny there are even problems.  

Remember all the times the website would not work in the evenings and we could not cancel reservations.  (I still have screen shots and video of it).  The next mornings I would have to call in and speak with owner care who would contact the IT department and according to the IT department there were no outages, because if there were it would be generated in their report.  The problem was that what the IT department results showed was taken as the truth and not further investigated.  

Some times points were restored but I have lost millions of points because of people in owner care to actually care.  Their solution was to cancel reservations earlier in the day instead of accepting there was an issue.


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## ace2000

ronparise said:


> Of course any changes will effect all owners.  That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept



I'm not sure I understand how curtailing "cancel and rebook" would affect all owners?  Are there other changes you see coming in regards to this?  

I have not read all the posts on this thread, just curious why some keep saying this.


----------



## SueDonJ

ronparise said:


> ... Of course any changes will effect all owners.  That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept ...



Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners?  And if so, are you sure that they and you would be subject to the same rules?  In Marriott's docs and others, developers/managers are given express rights to rental activity that is separate and distinct from the owners' rental rights.  In other words, unless your docs state that they and you must operate under the same t&c's, I wouldn't expect that they'll have to perform according to whatever restrictions they place on owners (if they place any.)


----------



## BellaWyn

paxsarah said:


> Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.



Let's pretend bots don't exist but point managers / mega-renters still do.  If your entire business model depended on staff monitoring the system from open to close to capture reservations as they come available, that's not "gaming" the system. That's part of doing business for the point manager.  Delaying canceled reservations, regardless of the reason or who canceled, will still eventually work to the advantage of those invested owners   

Ron, agree that changes are coming. And it's going to be a lot about how they deal with the "AND" part of the equation. Sadly it seems the approach is somewhat back-asswards.  You would think they would first focus on getting the system to do the accounting accurately before focusing on a smaller population of owners that drive "fresh meat" into their sales dens. 

Regardless of what the changes are, rest assured it WILL have some impact on ALL owners. We are seeing that now with inventory problems, accounting problems, credit pooling issues and understaffed OC / VC's. Those are not unique to a VIP owners.


----------



## wjappraise

SueDonJ said:


> Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners?  And if so, are you sure that they and you would be subject to the same rules?  In Marriott's docs and others, developers/managers are given express rights to rental activity that is separate and distinct from the owners' rental rights.  In other words, unless your docs state that they and you must operate under the same t&c's, I wouldn't expect that they'll have to perform according to whatever restrictions they place on owners (if they place any.)



Part of Wyndham's supply line for Extra Holidays is us, the owners.  We can make a reservation (even with a canceled and rebooked unit) and turn it over to Extra Holidays for them to market and keep a very large commission percentage if/when the sell the reservation.  This is useful for Wyndham to generate income, bring in potential "new meat" buyers, and for sales people to use as a reason to "buy more points," so you can rent the units out via EH.  In my estimation, Wyndham is the biggest mega-renter out there.


----------



## BellaWyn

SueDonJ said:


> Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners?  )



Not what Ron is saying. 

He's saying that changes that are now being motivated by the effort to squeeze out the large commercial renters will eventually have an impact on all the owners and WYN executives with have to get their head around what that impact would looks like.  In short, "CoSkier, careful what you ask for."

At least, that's my translation of Ron's statement.  No one is blind to the fact that WYN operates under a different set of rules related to their own commercial renting activity.


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## ronparise

ace2000 said:


> I'm not sure I understand how curtailing "cancel and rebook" would affect all owners?  Are there other changes you see coming in regards to this?
> 
> I have not read all the posts on this thread, just curious why some keep saying this.



The only constant is change. So yes I expect other changes. I just don't know what they are

If they take action to end cancel and rebooking it will affect all owners that cancel and rebook. And that includes folks that are not renters or mega renters. There are a lot of folks that bought for their own use that cancel and rebook to get more vacations for their families not to profit


----------



## buckor

ronparise said:


> The only constant is change. So yes I expect other changes. I just don't know what they are
> 
> If they take action to end cancel and rebooking it will affect all owners that cancel and rebook. And that includes folks that are not renters or mega renters. There are a lot of folks that bought for their own use that cancel and rebook to get more vacations for their families not to profit


This is true!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## bizaro86

Renters of cancel and rebooked rooms at low prices are probably not good prospects for the sales table. If a prospect says, well I'm paying 700 per week for my 4 bedroom presidential unit right now, how likely is that person to buy retail points. I would suggest renters of high priced ARP reservations are much more likely to buy.


----------



## paxsarah

BellaWyn said:


> Let's pretend bots don't exist but point managers / mega-renters still do.  If your entire business model depended on staff monitoring the system from open to close to capture reservations as they come available, that's not "gaming" the system. That's part of doing business for the point manager.  Delaying canceled reservations, regardless of the reason or who canceled, will still eventually work to the advantage of those invested owners



I hadn't considered the possibility of points managers/mega-renters having staff monitoring the system from 7am to 11:45pm waiting for the cancellations to come back, but in that case, you're absolutely right. I also didn't realize that was a thing. I wonder what the success rate of catching one's own reservation  would be if the return to inventory was delayed by even up to 24 hours, though.


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## wjappraise

bizaro86 said:


> Renters of cancel and rebooked rooms at low prices are probably not good prospects for the sales table. If a prospect says, well I'm paying 700 per week for my 4 bedroom presidential unit right now, how likely is that person to buy retail points. I would suggest renters of high priced ARP reservations are much more likely to buy.





Extra Holidays doesn't discount like that.  If you will notice, their quoted fees are much higher than you will find here, or on Ebay or Redweek.  So their renters are great prospects (want a nice room, but not saavy enough to check out cheaper alternatives - perfect marks!).   Once Wydham takes their commission the owner can still turn a small profit if he uses cancel and rebook.


----------



## BellaWyn

bizaro86 said:


> Renters of cancel and rebooked rooms at low prices are probably not good prospects for the sales table. If a prospect says, well I'm paying 700 per week for my 4 bedroom presidential unit right now, how likely is that person to buy retail points. I would suggest renters of high priced ARP reservations are much more likely to buy.



SO not true!  Even renters that get a great price on Wyndham product often still get driven to sit at a sales table.  It's the quality of the product itself that gets them there and they become curious about ownership.  Not to mention how adept the parking pass dance is at continuing to pressure people into signing up for a sales meeting. 

Case in point, have a very good friend that checked into BC today thanks to one of our TUG mega-renters that I recommended to her.  They LOVE the 3BPR unit they are in for the week.  Probably the nicest TS they have ever stayed in!  She KNOWS BETTER than to sit for a sales meeting but they did it anyway.  Then I get a call to go over the offer and, as we all know, it was chock full of elusive promises that we know WYN won't keep, would be a huge headache to manage and a financial burden she is not ready to take on.   Gratefully our conversation put the kibosh on them moving forward but the point is, renters, regardless of how good the deal is, still land in the sales meetings.  Happens all the time!!


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## ronparise

bizaro86 said:


> Renters of cancel and rebooked rooms at low prices are probably not good prospects for the sales table. If a prospect says, well I'm paying 700 per week for my 4 bedroom presidential unit right now, how likely is that person to buy retail points. I would suggest renters of high priced ARP reservations are much more likely to buy.



You need to understand that the discounts and upgrades I get go to my profit. I charge market prices. With few exceptions I don't pass the discounts on to my customers

I spoke to a sales person in San Francisco. They love renters. The pitch is that if they buy,  they can stay at the Canterbury resort cheaper than the rents we mega renters  charge them.


----------



## bizaro86

ronparise said:


> You need to understand that the discounts and upgrades I get go to my profit. I charge market prices. With few exceptions I don't pass the discounts on to my customers
> 
> I spoke to a sales person in San Francisco. They love renters. The pitch is that if they buy,  they can stay at the Canterbury resort cheaper than the rents we mega renters  charge them.



Fair enough. I suspect the discounts drop the market price of those reservations, but can't prove it. 

I could just be jaded from continually seeing great Wyndham reservations in the bargain deals forum...


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## wjappraise

bizaro86 said:


> Fair enough. I suspect the discounts drop the market price of those reservations, but can't prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> I could just be jaded from continually seeing great Wyndham reservations in the bargain deals forum...





You are right that fantastic deals exist on the TUG bargain site. However, these are the exception not the rule.  Far more rentals go for markedly more on a number of sites.  And the highest prices are on Extra Holidays site.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

bizaro86 said:


> Fair enough. I suspect the discounts drop the market price of those reservations, but can't prove it.
> 
> I could just be jaded from continually seeing great Wyndham reservations in the bargain deals forum...




the few exceptions were I offer discounts show up on the bargain deals forum


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## BellaWyn

bizaro86 said:


> I could just be jaded from continually seeing great Wyndham reservations in the bargain deals forum...



Bargain Deals for last minute rentals on TUG are forced pricing based on the TUG rules of $100 or less per night.  Definitely the exceptions, not the rule.  

Go to the TUG Marketplace and look at what people are asking for rental pricing.  Even those prices however are often well below Market pricing because TUGGERs tend to be always looking for the best deal and know all of the other sites to search for similar product.  Competitive market prices for TS rentals are almost always significantly higher than what you will see here on TUG.


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## Tank

I feel for all of you in this predicament, I have no skin in this but follow with interest learning. Hope things are resolved soon, I think its criminal what Wyndham has done here. I rent, not a mega renter, but this would have been awful to have to deal with. 

That Bargain price of $100 a night has been the same for 20 years now. Can you imagine how much everything has gone up in 20 years? I know mine have doubled. 

TUG is shooting themselves / us in the foot not keeping up with this somewhat, we all know some weeks can , and will go for much more in these desirable weeks and still be a bargain. 

Hope this comes to a end for you all soon.

Dave


----------



## ilya

I have tried to rent on Redweek with no luck. Even prime week at a low price. Is there a trick to renting ? How does Extra Holiday's work. Has this option been successful for people? Where else is an option to advertise except ebay. On ebay  I always see less than $100 a night for prime time and 3 bedroom, sometimes even presidential units. It really does hurt the small renters who only want to rent a few times a year. Any suggestions for  other renting options would be appreciated..


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## wjappraise

Tank said:


> I feel for all of you in this predicament, I have no skin in this but follow with interest learning. Hope things are resolved soon, I think its criminal what Wyndham has done here. I rent, not a mega renter, but this would have been awful to have to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> That Bargain price of $100 a night has been the same for 20 years now. Can you imagine how much everything has gone up in 20 years? I know mine have doubled.
> 
> 
> 
> TUG is shooting themselves / us in the foot not keeping up with this somewhat, we all know some weeks can , and will go for much more in these desirable weeks and still be a bargain.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this comes to a end for you all soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Dave





Thanks for your support.  It is demoralizing having to battle this for three months now.  Fortunately some excellent suggestions here on TUG have resulted in Wyndham restoring some activity to us.  

I agree with the need to raise the ceiling on the per night rate.  Even if it was $150 a night that still constitutes a "bargain" 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

ilya said:


> I have tried to rent on Redweek with no luck. Even prime week at a low price. Is there a trick to renting ? How does Extra Holiday's work. Has this option been successful for people? Where else is an option to advertise except ebay. On ebay  I always see less than $100 a night for prime time and 3 bedroom, sometimes even presidential units. It really does hurt the small renters who only want to rent a few times a year. Any suggestions for  other renting options would be appreciated..





Which resorts are you using?  Are you certain it's prime time for that location?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## johnluyando

I have been following this thread for a while now and have been rooting for you renters from the sidelines.  It's great to see that you all are getting through this.  There seems to be more chatter as of late showing higher spirits.  

I at some point aspire to be a renter.... as soon as I figure out how to gain access to Platinum at a bargain basement price.  

Currently, I rent (from some of you) for most of my family's vacations.  We are now traveling more than we ever have thanks to the bargain deals that we can find through various renters.  Whenever I come close to adding points, I remember that I can rent for a cheaper cost than the maintenance fees.  I have to imagine that there is a supply and demand component in your rental rates.  If prices go up, my family will travel less, add points to our existing portfolio or find other accommodation venues. 

We are strategic in our travels and tend not to vacation at peak times which certainly helps our budget.  Admittedly, I am cheap and will only book if I get deal.  We just got back from Bonnet Creek two weeks ago for which we paid far less than the $100 per night cap. If I ever make the leap into renting my model would be to cater to travelers such as I. There are many cheapskates out there like me!  

Just some food for thought.


----------



## wjappraise

Tank said:


> I feel for all of you in this predicament, I have no skin in this but follow with interest learning. Hope things are resolved soon, I think its criminal what Wyndham has done here. I rent, not a mega renter, but this would have been awful to have to deal with.
> 
> That Bargain price of $100 a night has been the same for 20 years now. Can you imagine how much everything has gone up in 20 years? I know mine have doubled.
> 
> TUG is shooting themselves / us in the foot not keeping up with this somewhat, we all know some weeks can , and will go for much more in these desirable weeks and still be a bargain.
> 
> Hope this comes to a end for you all soon.
> 
> Dave



That is an excellent point, Dave.  Can TUGBrian update this to a more realistic ceiling?  I understand there may be site traffic advantages to the low ball ceiling, but it is killing the owners who provide the inventory.  How about two tiers?  One is "bargain" and it has a nightly ceiling of $200 per night, and the other is "bargain basement" and it has a nightly ceiling of $100 per night.  That would allow for continued fantastic deals for some but also a realistic pricing for us owners.  If TUGBrian keeps in mind that even with the bargain ceiling, some posters will post even lower prices, especially when they are literally last minute.  So, there will still be fantastic deals available for all potential renters.  How about it TUGBrian?  Thanks for considering it.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Today no one is even staffing the 1-877 number.  Owner care is unwilling to help.  They say they have no ability to do anything in the account.  Why am i still paying program fees?




When my account was "thawed" I was told to continue to call the 1-877 number for such things as ARP and to change an owner name on a reservation to another co-owner (my wife, or adult children).  I asked specifically via email if this could be done on the regular VIP phone line.  The answer came back that I needed to call the 1-877 number and if I got voice mail to let them know when I would be available for a call back to get this completed.  Well, long story short, it is one week later and I am still waiting for a call back.  Wondering if anyone else has had success waiting for this, or if you have had success by merely calling the normal Wyndham line and getting a VC to assist.  

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Tank

Its not that hard, off times you just can't ask the bigger amount , the flood of availability determines this.  Peak times it is killing the industry because at cost would be a great deal for both. Is that so bad. 

People are thriving on this , business and personal , and the timeshare owner (the one TUG should want to help) is the one getting stuck. I tried to help with renters asking for availability, and them being mad at how dare me to ask over the $100 a night fee. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying for your stay.

 It was fair 20 years ago, It is not fair now. *A bargain price is at cost in IMHA and would be happy getting a extra vacation at that.*

Is a thread going now for 2017  MF's and its a eye opener, yes a few MF's are lower yet than that $100 , few and far between


----------



## wjappraise

Tank said:


> Its not that hard, off times you just can't ask the bigger amount , the flood of availability determines this.  Peak times it is killing the industry because at cost would be a great deal for both. Is that so bad.
> 
> People are thriving on this , business and personal , and the timeshare owner (the one TUG should want to help) is the one getting stuck. I tried to help with renters asking for availability, and them being mad at how dare me to ask over the $100 a night fee. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying for your stay.
> 
> It was fair 20 years ago, It is not fair now. *A bargain price is at cost in IMHA and would be happy getting a extra vacation at that.*
> 
> Is a thread going now for 2017  MF's and its a eye opener, yes a few MF's are lower yet than that $100 , few and far between



I started a new thread with this proposal.  Hope it can gain some traction.


----------



## SueDonJ

wjappraise said:


> I started a new thread with this proposal.  Hope it can gain some traction.



I've moved a few of the posts here to that thread, and moved it to the "Buying, Selling, Renting" forum where it will get exposure from all users of that forum.  Please note that the TUG Posting Rules prohibit duplicate posts/threads so any further related posts should be posted there.

Also, TUGBrian may not read every post on every forum.  You may want to PM/email him to make sure that he sees it.


----------



## BellaWyn

SueDonJ said:


> I've moved a few of the posts here to that thread, and moved it to the "Buying, Selling, Renting" forum where it will get exposure from all users of that forum.  Please note that the TUG Posting Rules prohibit duplicate posts/threads so any further related posts should be posted there.
> 
> Also, TUGBrian may not read every post on every forum.  You may want to PM/email him to make sure that he sees it.



Thanks for moving that thread out of this discussion.  It opened and closed quickly but there was some really good information.  Appreciated the link TUGBrian Posted.  Was not aware that there was last minute section in the Marketplace.


----------



## henley1

If Wyndham does somehow figure out a way stop the cancel/rebook, I'd probably want to sell all my contracts (I have a Platinum account with about 10,000,000 points).  Since i'm sure a lot of people would want do to the same, I think its quite possible that there would be no market at all for the points.  So my question is, if i just stop paying maintenance fees, can Wyndham come after my other assets or future earnings to cover my unpaid fees?  Could this affect my credit?  Or can I just give them back the keys and walk away?


----------



## Braindead

henley1 said:


> If Wyndham does somehow figure out a way stop the cancel/rebook, I'd probably want to sell all my contracts (I have a Platinum account with about 10,000,000 points).  Since i'm sure a lot of people would want do to the same, I think its quite possible that there would be no market at all for the points.  So my question is, if i just stop paying maintenance fees, can Wyndham come after my other assets or future earnings to cover my unpaid fees?  Could this affect my credit?  Or can I just give them back the keys and walk away?



Wyndham would probably take back most if not all your contracts thru the Ovation Program as long as your account is current


----------



## whitewater

henley1 said:


> If Wyndham does somehow figure out a way stop the cancel/rebook, I'd probably want to sell all my contracts (I have a Platinum account with about 10,000,000 points).  Since i'm sure a lot of people would want do to the same, I think its quite possible that there would be no market at all for the points.  So my question is, if i just stop paying maintenance fees, can Wyndham come after my other assets or future earnings to cover my unpaid fees?  Could this affect my credit?  Or can I just give them back the keys and walk away?


Give back via ovation and yes they will go after and negatively impact you credit.


----------



## am1

Braindead said:


> Wyndham would probably take back most if not all your contracts thru the Ovation Program as long as your account is current



I am sure most Platinum owners would have borrowed and credit pooled their points so giving back through ovation is not so easy.


----------



## whitewater

am1 said:


> I am sure most Platinum owners would have borrowed and credit pooled their points so giving back through ovation is not so easy.


interesting.  are some stripping accounts via borrowing/credit pooling then giving back?

if so thats a good way to get use without paying MFs....

grey and unethical imho no matter how you feel about wyndham's management practices.


----------



## ronparise

whitewater said:


> Give back via ovation and yes they will go after and negatively impact you credit.



Your maintenance fees have to be up to date to give back through ovation 
Also the points can't have been stripped. They won't take them back if they have.

I asked and they wouldn't do it. What they said they would do is process the transfer up to the point of signing a deed and at that time tell me how many reservations I would need to cancel to generate the points to make the contract whole


----------



## whitewater

ronparise said:


> Your maintenance fees have to be up to date to give back through ovation
> Also the points can't have been stripped. They won't take them back if they have.
> 
> I asked and they wouldn't do it. What they said they would do is process the transfer up to the point of signing a deed and at that time tell me how many reservations I would need to cancel to generate the points to make the contract whole



makes sense.


----------



## ronparise

henley1 said:


> If Wyndham does somehow figure out a way stop the cancel/rebook, I'd probably want to sell all my contracts (I have a Platinum account with about 10,000,000 points).  Since i'm sure a lot of people would want do to the same, I think its quite possible that there would be no market at all for the points.  So my question is, if i just stop paying maintenance fees, can Wyndham come after my other assets or future earnings to cover my unpaid fees?  Could this affect my credit?  Or can I just give them back the keys and walk away?



I read the transcripts of wyndhams quarterly earnings calls with the brokerage community. Steve Holmes,  CEO,  seems vey proud of how low they are able to keep the cost of goods sold. They have several innovative repurchase programs whereby they get back inventory at a very low cost. And as Steve put it the cool thing about timeshares is that they dont depreciate

So I wouldn't worry about Wyndham becoming overloaded with inventory. If the salesforce can't keep up they can always rent the stuff

Prices on ebay  have been between zero and about $15/1000 points since I've been involved (6 years). But almost everything gets sold. Ovation hasn't changed that. And even if all of us mega owners were to dump their ownerships back to Wyndham i don't think it would move secondary market prices out of that range


----------



## wjappraise

wjappraise said:


> When my account was "thawed" I was told to continue to call the 1-877 number for such things as ARP and to change an owner name on a reservation to another co-owner (my wife, or adult children).  I asked specifically via email if this could be done on the regular VIP phone line.  The answer came back that I needed to call the 1-877 number and if I got voice mail to let them know when I would be available for a call back to get this completed.  Well, long story short, it is one week later and I am still waiting for a call back.  Wondering if anyone else has had success waiting for this, or if you have had success by merely calling the normal Wyndham line and getting a VC to assist.
> 
> Thanks for your help.



Has anyone else had this same dilemma?  Being told to call the 877- number and not getting any response?  If so, what do you do?  Has it worked to just call the regular VIP line?  Thanks for sharing.  I am stuck . . . and it is impacting my mood.


----------



## John or Jane Doe

wjappraise said:


> Has anyone else had this same dilemma?  Being told to call the 877- number and not getting any response?  If so, what do you do?  Has it worked to just call the regular VIP line?  Thanks for sharing.  I am stuck . . . and it is impacting my mood.



When I was frozen (versus now I am thawed) I was able to call the VIP line. They would cancel reservations for me (or add GC's).  I think I called the 877 line once - held forever - and found the regular VIP line was just as helpful (and had less hold time).

And as a thawed owner I am using the VIP line (no need to call the 877).


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## wjappraise

John or Jane Doe said:


> When I was frozen (versus now I am thawed) I was able to call the VIP line. They would cancel reservations for me (or add GC's).  I think I called the 877 line once - held forever - and found the regular VIP line was just as helpful (and had less hold time).
> 
> And as a thawed owner I am using the VIP line (no need to call the 877).



Thanks for the heads-up.  I just did the same, called the VIP line and got some ARP done!!  The acctinfo@wyn.com had absolutely stated that I would not be able to do this. . . SILOS!!

As a follow-up question:  Has anyone who was suspened/frozen been entirely cleared or reconciled at this point?  Or is everyone in my boat, with some rights, but still a cloud hanging over my membership/usage?

Thanks.


----------



## Richelle

There are 900 replies on 46 pages in this discussion so far, and I'm only about half way through.  From what I have gathered so far, the issue could be the following:

1. Accounting issue in Wyndham.  Maybe duplicate reservations that add up to more points then the member can have when you factor in points from the credit pool.  Or some other bug in their system.
2. Stripped contracts (did not know this was possible.)
3. Someone has found a way to exploit a flaw in Wyndham point tracking system and the rest of the VIPs with large contracts are paying for it.
4. Wyndham is trying to make things more difficult for mega renters that they think are cheating the system.  In other words, there could be nothing wrong.  It's just a power play to show they can make things difficult on people who try to use the Wyndham timeshare program for profit.
5. Some other factor that I have not read about yet, because I have not gotten through all the replies.

I know there is a lot of complaints about VIPs using the cancel and rebooking method for their reservations to get the discount.  The sales guys try to pitch that idea to me as well, when telling me about the benefits of becoming a VIP.  I know some will book multiple rooms in case they lose one durning the cancel rebook process, which ties up inventory.  One could argue that when they release the unneeded units, it opens up rooms for people to book that wouldn't normally be able to, because they couldn't book 13 months out.   It could give them a shot at getting that Christmas week at bonnet.  Some could also say that Wyndham is losing money because of mega renters.  Their inventory is competing with the inventory Wyndham advertises on places like hotels.com, which charges over $400 a night for a one bedroom in Bonnet over Christmas week.  You can get the same rental on eBay for a lot cheaper.  However, I would disagree with that argument.  If a mega renter puts heads in beds, they are essentially handing Wyndham a lead on a silver platter.  Wyndham didn't pay to advertise that room.  They did not have to do anything to put someone in that room, that they can pitch a sales presentation to.  They got free advertising, and a free lead, and the mega renters are paying MF fees to boot.  If the sales guy closes the deal, that also adds to Wyndham bottom line.  Mega renting does not cause Wyndham to lose money,.  That cheap room on eBay got someone there, that wasn't going to pay $2,800 a week for that one bedroom.  Customer acquisition is not cheap.  When someone is doing it for you, and paying you money to be able to do it (MF fees, GC, etc), it benefits the bottom line.  

With that said, if Wyndham really did have a problem with the mega renters tying up inventory, there are ways to fix that, and still give VIP owners the ability to make a profit.  If they gave VIP's that discount from the first booking (13 months out), they would not need to book more then one room.  You also wouldn't have the issue of cancel and rebooking adding points that they should not have because the software is flawed.  I personally think that if you spent $200k plus dollars to become a VIP, you deserve that discount.  They should have the ability to make some of their money back.  Lord knows, we cannot do that on the resale market.  If they gave me that 50% on every reservation, no matter how far out, I'd pay to become platinum.  I MIGHT even pay a little more for it.  Keyword is ""might".  In addition to that change, I would also like it, if they give regular owners a discount, if they make a new reservation 30-60 days out, BUT they cannot use the cancel or rebook option.  The new reservation has to be new, or for a different room type (a 2 bedroom can be reduced to a 1 bedroom for the discount, but you cannot rebook that two bedroom for the discount).  I do know it's possible that if someone only wants a one bedroom, that they can book a 2 bedroom, and then cancel and book the one bedroom which would tie up two bedroom inventory.  However, if they go that route, they better hope that there are one bedrooms available, or they are stuck with paying full price for more then what they need.  I know that my suggestions are not likely anything they would go for, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Just my two Canadian pennies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

Richelle said:


> There are 900 replies on 46 pages in this discussion so far, and I'm only about half way through.  From what I have gathered so far, the issue could be the following:
> 
> 1. Accounting issue in Wyndham.  Maybe duplicate reservations that add up to more points then the member can have when you factor in points from the credit pool.  Or some other bug in their system.
> 2. Stripped contracts (did not know this was possible.)
> 3. Someone has found a way to exploit a flaw in Wyndham point tracking system and the rest of the VIPs with large contracts are paying for it.
> 4. Wyndham is trying to make things more difficult for mega renters that they think are cheating the system.  In other words, there could be nothing wrong.  It's just a power play to show they can make things difficult on people who try to use the Wyndham timeshare program for profit.
> 5. Some other factor that I have not read about yet, because I have not gotten through all the replies.
> 
> I know there is a lot of complaints about VIPs using the cancel and rebooking method for their reservations to get the discount.  The sales guys try to pitch that idea to me as well, when telling me about the benefits of becoming a VIP.  I know some will book multiple rooms in case they lose one durning the cancel rebook process, which ties up inventory.  One could argue that when they release the unneeded units, it opens up rooms for people to book that wouldn't normally be able to, because they couldn't book 13 months out.   It could give them a shot at getting that Christmas week at bonnet.  Some could also say that Wyndham is losing money because of mega renters.  Their inventory is competing with the inventory Wyndham advertises on places like hotels.com, which charges over $400 a night for a one bedroom in Bonnet over Christmas week.  You can get the same rental on eBay for a lot cheaper.  However, I would disagree with that argument.  If a mega renter puts heads in beds, they are essentially handing Wyndham a lead on a silver platter.  Wyndham didn't pay to advertise that room.  They did not have to do anything to put someone in that room, that they can pitch a sales presentation to.  They got free advertising, and a free lead, and the mega renters are paying MF fees to boot.  If the sales guy closes the deal, that also adds to Wyndham bottom line.  Mega renting does not cause Wyndham to lose money,.  That cheap room on eBay got someone there, that wasn't going to pay $2,800 a week for that one bedroom.  Customer acquisition is not cheap.  When someone is doing it for you, and paying you money to be able to do it (MF fees, GC, etc), it benefits the bottom line.
> 
> With that said, if Wyndham really did have a problem with the mega renters tying up inventory, there are ways to fix that, and still give VIP owners the ability to make a profit.  If they gave VIP's that discount from the first booking (13 months out), they would not need to book more then one room.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You have some great takes on the situation at hand.  I don't think that Wyndham has targeted mega-renters here.  I am impacted and by no stretch am I a mega-renter.  I and my extended family USE the ownership with about 90% of my reservations being for my extended family and personal friends.  We have a church group that goes down to Orlando every year during Thanksgiving time and that one event uses half of my annual points.  About 10% of my reservations are ones I rent out using RedWeek primarily; I only use TUG when I have a reservation cancelled and will forfeit the points if someone does not use it.  

This whole episode has worn me, and from the sound of it, it has worn down other great contributors to this forum.  I foresee many long time owners who have been impacted divesting themselves of this ownership that has become a burden, rather than a joy.  

I have owned since the days of Fairfield, when the slogan was "Sharing" times and memories.  I was especially motivated by the free unlimited guest reservations to move (purchase) my ownership up to VIP.  I was further motivated by the Presidential Reserve units at Bonnet Creek to move (purchase) my ownership up to Presidential Reserve Platinum.   This would allow me to reserve units at Bonnet Creek 14 months in advance of my one big trip each Thanksgiving.  My account was suspended this year at the 14 month mark, meaning I could not reserve the larger rooms I need for our group.  And we all know what happened to the "sharing" aspect of Wyndham's motto when they took over for Fairfield, and soon did away with the free guest reservations.  So, my major reasons for purchasing all the way up to my current level are now stripped away, with no compensation, no recourse.  So, I am not a prime candidate for their "owner updates" that would have a group setting, I can tell you that.  Which is interesting, because I always felt some of the posters here who reveled in their resale purchases, or wearing their TUG shirts to an owner update were being "over the top," and something I would never want to do.  Now, I understand.  I am bitter.  

Truthmonkey - Does Wyndham know how I (and other impacted owners) feel about them?

Wes


----------



## Richelle

The last time we did an owner update, they brought us to a "room" which actually had cubicle panels for the walls. I found it odd that they separated us from the rest of the folks talking at the small tables out in the open. I had not done any to deserve any such treatment, and I only have 182k points. I am a prime candidate for silver I think, because I have had my contract for about 8 years now. That's the only thing I can think of. I have considered it, but after listening to people talk about VIP, it seems like anything below platinum would be a waste of money for someone looking to recoup some or all of their costs. Anyway, that incident of being separated from the herd, and this debacle, have inspired me. I think the next time I am there with my mom or husband, I might call over to one of them when they are getting coffee, "hey, didn't you read something about all those VIP accounts getting suspended?  What was the reason again?". I will have them respond "They made too many reservations and the Wyndham system couldn't keep track of their points". I'm sure the sales guy will play it down as a One time thing but it will at least put the idea in the other buyers head. Will not work for all, but even if it keeps just one sucker from buying for the wrong reason, it's worth getting banned from future update meetings. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OutSkiing

Richelle said:


> I'm sure the sales guy will play it down as a One time thing but it will at least put the idea in the other buyers head.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We were at an owners update at Star Island on 9/21 when this freeze was just unfolding. It was just us and one other couple for the slide show portion so everyone was talking freely.  When I brought up the account freeze, the sales manager knew exactly what I was referring to but said 'oh you mean the trouble those mega renters are in.'  I responded loud and clearly that it was not just mega renters who are affected.  He and again the on-on-one rep claimed that they heard me that I was concerned for the well being of all VIP owners.

So, it surprises me that some sales offices claim they did not know this was going on as was mentioned in another post.  Star Island seems like an out of the way, low traffic office and even they knew something was going on.

Bob


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## Richelle

They probably knew but were not told how to address it. Easier to play dumb. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John or Jane Doe

I attended an Owner's Update while my account was frozen. It was the first in several years as my account is coded to not invite me to updates. I was surprised I was allowed to attend. Being frozen I jumped on the opportunity.

Either I am a total sucker/gullible/etc or the sales person had no idea what was going on regarding frozen accounts.  That was in September - maybe things have changed.

He himself was VIP gold. He was proud of the fact they used to sell split use year and promoted rolling points. He had rolled points back in the day (I told him he better not tell anyone).  He still tried to sell me more points (to trade what we had for lower maintenance fees). 

2 or 3 days later my account was thawed. I really don't think he had any idea what was going on regarding the suspended accounts. Or I'm a super sucker and he was trying to see what I knew. But I don't think so.


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## vacationhopeful

John or Jane Doe said:


> ...
> He himself was VIP gold. He was proud of the fact they used to sell split use year and promoted rolling points. He had rolled points back in the day (I told him he better not tell anyone).  He still tried to sell me more points (to trade what we had for lower maintenance fees).
> ....



As his lips were moving ... I would truly be SURPRISED he own even a single Wyndham point or deed.

He learned enough lingo/terms ... to effectively sell and get a commission. 

The other popular LIE is, the salesperson manages some Platinum VIP accounts for owners where they turned enough rentals into free usage for the owner.... of course, they aren't allowed to do this but they have to HELP the _their_ owners use and pay for the MFs for points because (illness, job loss, death, not yet retired).


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## wjappraise

truthmonkey said:


> Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.
> 
> Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics.  I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you.  Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.



Good morning, Truthmonkey.

Wondering if you could update us if ANY of the 100 impacted owners have been completely resolved at this point?  Thank you for your input.  It has been very helpful for those of us in limbo with this action.


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## wjappraise

wjappraise said:


> Good morning, Truthmonkey.
> 
> Wondering if you could update us if ANY of the 100 impacted owners have been completely resolved at this point?  Thank you for your input.  It has been very helpful for those of us in limbo with this action.



Good afternoon, with the migrating of data, I thought this may have been lost.  Any possibility of a response?  Thanks,.


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## scootr5

wjappraise said:


> Good afternoon, with the migrating of data, I thought this may have been lost.  Any possibility of a response?  Thanks,.



Assuming that truthmonkey was a Wyndham employee and providing real info, from their profile it doesn't look like they've been back on the board since October 14th. You may want to email/pm them.


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## jumoe

So.... 12 weeks later.  I was "thawed" a few weeks ago.
I have not been contacted to receive the results of their point audit.  I have not been contacted at all since the point I was unfrozen.
I have not been officially totally "released".
Has anyone had any progress?  Any contact?


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## John or Jane Doe

jumoe said:


> So.... 12 weeks later.  I was "thawed" a few weeks ago.
> I have not been contacted to receive the results of their point audit.  I have not been contacted at all since the point I was unfrozen.
> I have not been officially totally "released".
> Has anyone had any progress?  Any contact?



Same here. Thawed but they are not done yet. Last talk I had had undertones that points may still be adjusted (kind of passive-agressive-no good info). Can't transfer any contracts.   I had contact - a returned call with promised follow up to my questions in 2 days (that was over week ago).


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## gottashiner

I was finally able to pool points 1 week ago for points that were eligible to be pooled 9/30/16, but only to the level of my annual allocation. So even though previously pooled points were "regular points" after they had been booked and cancelled, they aren't considered regular if the amount of points are more than the yearly number of points.  I had to call again Wed (on hold for another 44minutes) because not all points showed as pooled- this agent told If the agent had told me that back in September, I would have used the excess points for airfare or anything else available.  It makes sense but it never occured to me since all points were "regular".  I easily have more than 7 hours being on hold waiting on Owner Care.  What a frustrating encounter.
This whole experience has changed my feelings toward Wyndham and how they treat owners.  I totally agree with am1-

 as am1 states above  "I am not a customer but an owner. I expect to be treated fairly and legally. I do not see that happening. In the past I have been someone that has suggested to others that a VIP retail purchase can work now I would not suggest even purchasing resale. No one has any idea what is next but it will not be good for any owner resale, retail, vip, mega renter or any other group."


----------



## ronparise

gottashiner said:


> as am1 states above  "I am not a customer but an owner. I expect to be treated fairly and legally. I do not see that happening."



I think you guys are making a mistake assuming that "Wyndham" is doing this to us. Or that it's not fair or legal. It's not Wyndham, it's the club. Or better stated, it's  Wyndham working in their capacity as Club manager for all the owners

Nothing that they are doing to me or you or any of us is going to improve wyndhams bottom line. Everything that they are doing is being done for and in the name of the other owners.

 The fact is Wyndham feels that we have been taking advantage of the club and the rest of the membership; using the club for our personal gain

Read the disclosures in the back of the owner's manual. Use of the club for commercial purposes is prohibited. And using loopholes to gain an unfair advantage over other owners is also prohibited. These are club rules, designed for the benefit of all members that are being administered by the manager for the membership not for themselves

Given that these rules are going to be enforced; I know I would rather Wyndham be the enforcer than the other owners themselves. Think enforcement power in the hands of co skier rather than Wyndham. He would have me hung  up by my genitals. Wyndham just suspended me and we are working out our differences

I can't say some Wyndham executives arent taking this personally. They are pissed and they are treating some of us differently than others.  (And I think I pissed them off more than others) but once their lawyers got involved (and placed themselves between me and the guys I pissed off) I can say I've been treated nothing but fairly and legally.

Just my opinion


----------



## wjappraise

I'm in the same boat.  Thawed but still under restrictions.  Wow.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> I'm in the same boat.  Thawed but still under restrictions.  Wow.



My 3 accounts are still frozen.  I would not agree to their terms until my other issues from last winter were addressed.  Wyndham caused me 100's of thousands of dollars in damages due to no fault of my own.  As well as an employee at the resort slandered me and the guest wrote about it on the largest travel forum there is.  I have requested in writing for Wyndham to contact the forum to have that removed but have not heard back and it is still there.

Soon I want to exercise my 13 arp window (which is a deeded right).  I sent Wyndham an e-mail and voicemail concerning that.  These requests in the past have gone unanswered.  I do not expect them to honor my deeded rights but it will be included in my damages when everything is eventually resolved.


----------



## wjappraise

So, are you still making maintenance fee payments?


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> So, are you still making maintenance fee payments?



I am yes.  I am sure if the account goes into default I would lose my reservations.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> I think you guys are making a mistake assuming that "Wyndham" is doing this to us. Or that it's not fair or legal. It's not Wyndham, *it's the club*. Or better stated, it's Wyndham working in their capacity as Club manager for all the owners .



There was a time in the not too distant past that it used to be a "vacation ownership" and not a "club."  The "Club" part was introduced when WYN began their full force push to bring as many deeded "ownerships" into *CLUB* Wyndham Access.  Then slow and subtle re-branding started to happen.  We are now all technically re-branded as "*Club-XX*" (something) regardless of how we all got involved with Wyndham.

During that same period of time WYN was in a full-on battle with the membership of "Worldmark The Club" in an attempt to merge the two types of member groups.  There still remains a difference however between "deeded owner" rights vs "member" club rights.

Regardless of how we are now all titled, Wyndham still has the responsibility to correctly and accurately *MANAGE* the ownership / membership data, which includes an accurate accounting of points useage.  It's part of what we all pay for with out program and maintenance fees and part of the "good faith" trust we all put into WYN at the time we purchased the product, regardless of type.



ronparise said:


> Nothing that they are doing to me or you or any of us is going to improve Wyndham's bottom line. Everything that they are doing is being done for and in the name of the other owners.



That statement is slightly counter to one of your previous statements:


ronparise said:


> It is my belief that what they really don’t like is that some folks have figured out how to profit from renting Wyndham timeshares; *profit  that they consider to be rightfully theirs.*


*...   so are you reversing yourself?*



ronparise said:


> The fact is Wyndham feels that we have been taking advantage of the club and the rest of the membership; using the club for our personal gain.
> 
> Read the disclosures in the back of the owner's manual. Use of the club for commercial purposes is prohibited. And using loopholes to gain an unfair advantage over other owners is also prohibited. These are club rules, designed for the benefit of all members that are being administered by the manager for the membership not for themselves.



It's not just mega-renters that have had their accounts suspended, as evidenced by posters in this forum thread.  Some are just high-point owners that are using their accounts for themselves, family and friends as outlined by Wyndham's ownership / club guidelines.  *How is it "fair"* (cannot speak to the legality of it) *that those suspended owners, who are still paying their maintenance fees timely, continue to have either limited or no access to the use of their accounts?
*


ronparise said:


> I can't say some Wyndham executives aren’t taking this personally. They are pissed and they are treating some of us differently than others.


*What specifically is it about this situation that a Wyndham Executive would have reason to take "personally" or to be pissed off about other than loss of profits?*

The whole posturing of "Wyndham is not the bad guy" "re-think what is reasonable" from one who has previously stated they are frustrated, pissed off and unhappy with this suspended account situation seems a bit overly-rational.  How does this help the membership as a whole?  *We are clearly ALL at risk* (VIP or not VIP, Club member or Deeded Owner) knowing that Wyndham can strip any one of us from access to our paid-in-full ownership accounts while we continue to make on-going *timely* maintenance fee payments *AND* they can *keep us suspended for an indefinite period of time*, at their whim with minimal explanation, followup or support.

Perhaps because you are now in the process of employing your stated exit strategy it is a little easier to disengage from the situation.  However, still am unclear how you can posture that Wyndham is doing any of this solely for the the benefit of all owners because "all owners" are at risk when WYN employs "*THE CLUB*"

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Hi Ron & BellaWyn ,
 and everyone else ,
I  (as a non Wyndham owner/ TUG reader  ) appreciate how much thought you are putting into continuing to update this thread .

I am sure all readers - present and future - are helped by these and prior posts .

This thread is now into month 4 - and is closing in on 80,000 views - and  1000 postings / replys
since Bobdaz started it Aug 24 2016 .

Quite a read -

.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> There was a time in the not too distant past that it used to be a "vacation ownership" and not a "club."  The "Club" part was introduced when WYN began their full force push to bring as many deeded "ownerships" into *CLUB* Wyndham Access.  Then slow and subtle re-branding started to happen.  We are now all technically re-branded as "*Club-XX*" (something) regardless of how we all got involved with Wyndham.
> 
> During that same period of time WYN was in a full-on battle with the membership of "Worldmark The Club" in an attempt to merge the two types of member groups.  There still remains a difference however between "deeded owner" rights vs "member" club rights.
> 
> Regardless of how we are now all titled, Wyndham still has the responsibility to correctly and accurately *MANAGE* the ownership / membership data, which includes an accurate accounting of points useage.  It's part of what we all pay for with out program and maintenance fees and part of the "good faith" trust we all put into WYN at the time we purchased the product, regardless of type.
> 
> 
> 
> That statement is slightly counter to one of your previous statements:
> 
> *...   so are you reversing yourself?*
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just mega-renters that have had their accounts suspended, as evidenced by posters in this forum thread.  Some are just high-point owners that are using their accounts for themselves, family and friends as outlined by Wyndham's ownership / club guidelines.  *How is it "fair"* (cannot speak to the legality of it) *that those suspended owners, who are still paying their maintenance fees timely, continue to have either limited or no access to the use of their accounts?
> *
> 
> *What specifically is it about this situation that a Wyndham Executive would have reason to take "personally" or to be pissed off about other than loss of profits?*
> 
> The whole posturing of "Wyndham is not the bad guy" "re-think what is reasonable" from one who has previously stated they are frustrated, pissed off and unhappy with this suspended account situation seems a bit overly-rational.  How does this help the membership as a whole?  *We are clearly ALL at risk* (VIP or not VIP, Club member or Deeded Owner) knowing that Wyndham can strip any one of us from access to our paid-in-full ownership accounts while we continue to make on-going *timely* maintenance fee payments *AND* they can *keep us suspended for an indefinite period of time*, at their whim with minimal explanation, followup or support.
> 
> Perhaps because you are now in the process of employing your stated exit strategy it is a little easier to disengage from the situation.  However, still am unclear how you can posture that Wyndham is doing any of this solely for the the benefit of all owners because "all owners" are at risk when WYN employs "*THE CLUB*"
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.




Just my opinion too..

But to your points:

1)    Slightly counter, but not entirely contradictory ....

Wyndham is in the rental business, and so am I.   Each rental customer of mine I think they see as rightfully theirs.   I think it bothers them that so many of us are able to make a little money with their product.
The suspension email we received started with this line.."Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus..."  so clearly they are representing the club in this whole suspension thing. I think making life difficult for the mega renters is a bonus for Wyndham.. and not the prime motivation for the suspensions.

2) as near as I can tell everyone that got suspended had more points and points in reservations than could be justified by what they own.   If Wyndham was to just ignore these "extra" points that wouldnt be fair to the ownership base.  I think the time they are taking to finish the audits and take back their points is inexcusable, but I dont think its unfair

3)  Its not the situation that has them upset.  Im not going to tell you what I think has upset the guys and gals in the executive suite. Pissed off may be too strong, but Im convinced that Ive given some of them some heartburn

4) I dont believe all owners are at risk and I dont think whats happened to some of us was done on a whim

as I sad.. Just my opinion (based on my experience)


----------



## Marathoner

ronparise said:


> .
> 3)  Its not the situation that has them upset.  Im not going to tell you what I think has upset the guys and gals in the executive suite.



Why don't you just tell us why they are upset?


----------



## am1

Marathoner said:


> Why don't you just tell us why they are upset?



I think people on TUG need to realize that no one owes anyone on on here an explanation about anything.  Information will be shared as one sees fit.


----------



## ronparise

Marathoner said:


> Why don't you just tell us why they are upset?



I probably phrased that wrong. All of them are not pissed at all of us, rather some of them are pissed at some of us. 

why do I think some of the executives are "pissed" at some of us owners? Bottom line is that no one likes to be taken advantage of, and nobody likes to look foolish. And some of us made some of them look bad


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> I probably phrased that wrong. All of them are not pissed at all of us, rather some of them are pissed at some of us.
> 
> why do I think some of the executives are "pissed" at some of us owners? Bottom line is that no one likes to be taken advantage of, and nobody likes to look foolish. And some of us made some of them look bad



Interesting point, Ron.  However, dragging this into the fourth month, coupled with NO COMMUNICATION, and placing accounts in a frozen status for an inordinate amount of time that negated ARP for many of us, is the actual "bad look" that Wyndham wears.  From my vantage point, NOT ONE OWNER has been reconciled and cleared yet.  That is inexcusable, it is a violation of the spirit of the trust, if not the terms.  And it certainly has garnered attention from the governing bodies in the state of Florida and beyond.  The other "bad look" comes from the incompetent IT department.  

Many of us had reached out to Wyndham prior to the mass "suspensions" and this was ignored as they had full faith in their IT department.  Many of us were candid in our opening "interview" with the Wyndham reps in August, wherein we disclosed that we had too many points, due to faults in their IT department.  And now we are in December, with NOTHING RESOLVED.  The national election results could be recounted, by hand, quicker than that.  Adam (am1) still does not have the "thawed" access most of the rest of us have been granted, and he is still making what must be HUGE monthly maintenance fee payments.  It sounds as though he is "being taken advantage of," not Club Wyndham or its agents.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Hi wrappraise,
Good post .


FYI - I. am not sure if -am1 - wishes to have his non-TUG name used ( if possible )

I know it is know by some Wyndham owners like yourself but ...( maybe use edit and just leave his TUG name )

I will use my TUG name and first name in some PM / conversations ,- but prefer not having it connected through my TUG posts by the ownership of our  TS .

Call it paranoia  or just ...

Can edit my post afterward also

PS - I am not yet sure how to fully use PM / conversations
which is why I posted .

.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Interesting point, Ron.  However, dragging this into the fourth month, coupled with NO COMMUNICATION, and placing accounts in a frozen status for an inordinate amount of time that negated ARP for many of us, is the actual "bad look" that Wyndham wears.  From my vantage point, NOT ONE OWNER has been reconciled and cleared yet.  That is inexcusable, it is a violation of the spirit of the trust, if not the terms.  And it certainly has garnered attention from the governing bodies in the state of Florida and beyond.  The other "bad look" comes from the incompetent IT department.
> 
> Many of us had reached out to Wyndham prior to the mass "suspensions" and this was ignored as they had full faith in their IT department.  Many of us were candid in our opening "interview" with the Wyndham reps in August, wherein we disclosed that we had too many points, due to faults in their IT department.  And now we are in December, with NOTHING RESOLVED.  The national election results could be recounted, by hand, quicker than that.  Adam (am1) still does not have the "thawed" access most of the rest of us have been granted, and he is still making what must be HUGE monthly maintenance fee payments.  It sounds as though he is "being taken advantage of," not Club Wyndham or its agents.


My status is no different than AM1's  Still frozen after all this time and still paying maintenance fees.  Im not saying that makes me happy. 

I wasnt happy when a Florida State Trooper pulled me over not too long ago and gave me a $250 speeding ticket. But I was doing 90 mph.. I cant say he wasnt fair. 

The time this is taking and the poor systems are issues worthy of discussion (and my anger) but when I step back and look at this from their perspective I do feel Im being treated with respect and fairly


----------



## ronparise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi wrappraise,
> Good post .
> 
> 
> FYI - I. am not sure if -am1 - wishes to have his non-TUG name used ( if possible )
> 
> I know it is know by some Wyndham owners like yourself but ...( maybe use edit and just leave his TUG name )
> 
> I will use my TUG name and first name in some PM / conversations but prefer not having it connected through my TUG posts by the ownership !of our  TS .
> 
> Call it paranoia  or just ...
> 
> Can edit my post afterward also
> 
> PS - I am not yet sure how to fully use PM / conversations
> which is why I posted .
> 
> .



Pretty sure everyone at wyndham knows exactly who AM1 is


----------



## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> Interesting point, Ron.  However, dragging this into the fourth month, coupled with NO COMMUNICATION, and placing accounts in a frozen status for an inordinate amount of time that negated ARP for many of us, is the actual "bad look" that Wyndham wears.  From my vantage point, NOT ONE OWNER has been reconciled and cleared yet.  That is inexcusable, it is a violation of the spirit of the trust, if not the terms.  And it certainly has garnered attention from the governing bodies in the state of Florida and beyond.  The other "bad look" comes from the incompetent IT department.
> 
> Many of us had reached out to Wyndham prior to the mass "suspensions" and this was ignored as they had full faith in their IT department.  Many of us were candid in our opening "interview" with the Wyndham reps in August, wherein we disclosed that we had too many points, due to faults in their IT department.  And now we are in December, with NOTHING RESOLVED.  The national election results could be recounted, by hand, quicker than that.  Adam (am1) still does not have the "thawed" access most of the rest of us have been granted, and he is still making what must be HUGE monthly maintenance fee payments.  It sounds as though he is "being taken advantage of," not Club Wyndham or its agents.



Maybe Ron has a different communication pipeline to WYN than other suspended owners because his frustration, as reflected in his more recent posts, seems to be softening.  Or he is choosing to be less overt about it which is a deviation from his historical posting patterns.  My question is why?  What's motivating the softer reflection of a situation that is still unresolved, costing ongoing MF's with still no (or limited) access to paid-in-full and current accounts?

Ron is being treated "fairly" so how does his treatment differ from yours wjappraise that makes him feel this way?  Because clearly, your treatment (or am1's or any other suspended owner), IMO, has no reflection of "fairness" in any respect.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Maybe Ron has a different communication pipeline to WYN than other suspended owners because his frustration, as reflected in his more recent posts, seems to be softening.  Or he is choosing to be less overt about it which is a deviation from his historical posting patterns.  My question is why?  What's motivating the softer reflection of a situation that is still unresolved, costing ongoing MF's with still no (or limited) access to paid-in-full and current accounts?
> 
> Ron is being treated "fairly" so how does his treatment differ from yours wjappraise that makes him feel this way?  Because clearly, your treatment (or am1's or any other suspended owner), IMO, has no reflection of "fairness" in any respect.



I am trying to separate my emotions from the process.. the situation is unresolved but discussions are underway and I can see a light a the end of the tunnel

I still own this stuff (whether or not I can use it is another question) and therefore I am responsible for my fair share of the expenses.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> *But to your points:
> 1)    Slightly counter, but not entirely contradictory ....
> Wyndham is in the rental business, and so am I.   Each rental customer of mine I think they see as rightfully theirs.   I think it bothers them that so many of us are able to make a little money with their product.* *"....  so many of US" meaning???  How many does WYN think is included in that US because it's actually a very small handful of owners that fall into the mega-renter / point manager group compared to the the hundreds of thousands of owners in the WYN system.  The rest are the occasional VIP owners just trying to cover MF's and not make it a rental business!*
> 
> *The suspension email we received started with this line.."Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus..."  so clearly they are representing the club in this whole suspension thing. I think making life difficult for the mega renters is a bonus for Wyndham.. and not the prime motivation for the suspensions.* *They represent themselves under the cover of representing the club in the respect that the POINTS ACCOUNTING SYSTEM has been mis-managed, which is their job as the MANAGEMENT COMPANY that the Club ownership pays them to do!*
> 
> *2) as near as I can tell everyone that got suspended had more points and points in reservations than could be justified by what they own.   If Wyndham was to just ignore these "extra" points that wouldn't be fair to the ownership base. * *Based on the the historical postings in this thread, the bulk of the suspended owners have never asked WYN to "ignore" the extra points.  Many have actually brought the situation to WYN's attention in an effort to deal with WYN honestly.  There may be a small handful of owners that have been hoping the extra points would continue to go unnoticed but those are the exception, not the rule.
> 
> I think the time they are taking to finish the audits and take back their points is inexcusable, but I don't think its unfair.  <-- that's just a straight-up conflicting statement.
> 
> 3)  It's not the situation that has them upset.  I'm not going to tell you what I think has upset the guys and gals in the executive suite. Pissed off may be too strong, but I'm convinced that I've given some of them some heartburn.* *Finally, first person statements instead of scooping the collective suspended owners into the same situation as you.  Your situation is unique in that you knowingly, and openly have been stating (over thousands of posts since 2011) you have been taking extreme advantage of the WYN "loopholes." Other suspended owners have not employed those same extreme methodologies.*
> 
> *4) I don't believe all owners are at risk and I don't think whats happened to some of us was done on a whim. * *ALL owners are at risk as long as there continues to be zero recourse when / if WYN can suspend access to a paid-in-full account that have timely payments of MF's for an indefinite period of time with almost no communication or support.  The length of these unresolved audits and suspensions is a reflection of their capricious and disrespectful attitude toward ALL Wyndham owners, suspended or not.*
> 
> *as I said.. Just my opinion (based on my experience) * *Your "experience" with WYN is unique by your own design and cannot be fully applied to the mass of Wyndham owners.  Most have not openly gone about applying extreme methods to take advantage of "loopholes" you discovered and used to your advantage.*



It's always better when you only speak for yourself and not try be the mouthpiece for all suspended owners or WYN.  Unless you are somehow directly connected with WYN stating what they "feel" falls outside of any normal Wyndham Owner's ability to truly be able to do that.  It's up to WYN to tell us how they "FEEL" about this situation and they are not communicating with other suspended owners.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> I am trying to separate my emotions from the process.. the situation is unresolved but *discussions are underway* and I can see a light a the end of the tunnel
> 
> I still own this stuff (whether or not I can use it is another question) and therefore I am responsible for my fair share of the expenses.



At least you are having "discussions" because apparently, there are other suspended owners that have yet to get that far.  One can never truly separate emotion when it comes to $$-related issues.  However, one can feel somewhat more positive about it if they know the outcome will not be as financially challenging as they initially expected it to be.  

Have been through TOO MANY IRS audit's with clients over MANY years to not understand how this works.  There is a marked difference in how people feel and respond once they get past the initial explosive horror of how bad it "could be" vs what gets negotiated as a final outcome.  

So, maybe being able to "see a light" means that your outcome might not be as bleak.  But knowing is different than being kept in the dark, which, other suspended owners are still danging in that dark space with no indication of where the train is heading or when it will even arrive at the station.  They have yet to be privledged with "discussion" from WYN.


----------



## ronparise

I never meant to speak for everyone. Only to say what I see and share the way I feel

I suspect Wyndham is dealing with the more difficult cases first. And it's obviously taking a long time but while that's happening others have been allowed to go back to work subject to a possible loss of points. Not ideal but not so bad for them either


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> I am trying to separate my emotions from the process.. the situation is unresolved but discussions are underway and I can see a light a the end of the tunnel
> 
> I still own this stuff (whether or not I can use it is another question) and therefore I am responsible for my fair share of the expenses.



That is likely why my mood and attitude are diminishing, not improving.  The most recent phone call update I received from Wyndham was on SEPTEMBER 27, 2016!!  Let that sink in for a little bit. . . .  ten weeks since any type of update.  

Of course, that date was coincidentally placed one week after I needed to use my ARP for an event our large group does every Thanksgiving.  We reserve ten rooms, most being larger Presidential Reserve suites at Bonnet Creek, using my PR ARP at Bonnet Creek that activates at 14 months.  It was the SOLE reason I purchased up to the Presidential Reserve level (I know, stupid, but it was before I found TUG).  So, once my account was thawed enough to allow for that, I no longer had access to any of the 3- or 4-bedroom units we use for our group.  And that is the entire reason I have my Wyndham account, is for this trip.  So, I see no "light" at the end of the tunnel, just a bill every month that must be paid.   Even when I remove emotion from the formula, the net result is not a pleasant result, not by a long shot.


----------



## am1

I have left 10 messages between last night and today and have not received a call back within the hour as promised or today at all.


----------



## wjappraise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi wrappraise,
> Good post .
> 
> 
> FYI - I. am not sure if -am1 - wishes to have his non-TUG name used ( if possible ).



Good point.  I will endeavor to use only names that are part of the "handle."


----------



## am1

Finally received a call back at 6:50 pm.  Not from my voicemails but I called the regular owner care line and they sent in a message.  As usual no reason why my voicemails were not replied.  I told the case specialist I was just sitting down to my mother in laws birthday dinner and if they could call back at 7:55pm, was told 7:30 would be the latest.  At 7:30pm the agent called and I asked to be called back in 5 minutes as the food was just delivered.  Called back in 5 minutes but after verifying my info the call was dropped.  No callback.  I call owner care and let them know the situation and they just offer to transfer me back to the other number where I leave another message that will probably go un replied to.  

I feel bad for the people answering the phone while their boss gets a golden parachute for poorly running the company but it comes with the job.   Most do such a good job but Wyndham does not support them.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> .....it's obviously taking a long time but while that's happening others have been allowed to go back to work subject to a possible loss of points. *Not ideal but not so bad for them either*


That's like saying it's not horrible to have to sleep on the front lawn because the IRS seized my property and locked me out of the house while they audit whether or not I paid enough property tax, even though they already acknowledge that I have because they have not foreclosed, only seized.  So, gosh, grateful they left me the front lawn....  WTH?

Wacky wacky spin on the situation.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> That's like saying it's not horrible to have to sleep on the front lawn because the IRS seized my property and locked me out of the house while they audit whether or not I paid enough property tax, even though they already acknowledge that I have because they have not foreclosed, only seized.  So, gosh, grateful they left me the front lawn....  WTH?
> 
> Wacky wacky spin on the situation.



ok you win. Tell me how I should feel about this


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> ok you win. Tell me how I should feel about this


Why would I want to? 

And how did you flip that analogy over to be about how you should feel?  You saddled other owners with the "not ideal but not so bad for them" statement.  Isn't that YOU telling THEM how they are supposed to feel about what has happened to them? it's a spin completely unworthy of your intellect.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Why would I want to?
> 
> And how did you flip that analogy over to be about how you should feel?  You saddled other owners with the "not ideal but not so bad for them" statement.  Isn't that YOU telling THEM how they are supposed to feel about what has happened to them? it's a spin completely unworthy of your intellect.



You have taken issue with everything I've said here recently, questioning the conclusions that I've taken from my experience with wyndham.

So l say they have treated me fairly and based on conversations I've had with other suspended owners I'd say they are being treated fairly too. (AM1 may be the exception)  But based on I don't know what, you say I'm wrong. So I'm asking.  How should I feel?

As to why they are talking to me and not others? I think it's because I have been willing to take a step back and see their side of it and I'm working with them; not against them. Others that took a combative approach are waiting.  Once I understood what they wanted from me things got easier.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> You have taken issue with everything I've said here recently, questioning the conclusions that I've taken from my experience with wyndham.
> 
> So l say they have treated me fairly and based on conversations I've had with other suspended owners I'd say they are being treated fairly too. (AM1 may be the exception)  But based on I don't know what, you say I'm wrong. So I'm asking.  How should I feel?
> 
> As to why they are talking to me and not others? I think it's because I have been willing to take a step back and see their side of it and I'm working with them; not against them. Others that took a combative approach are waiting.  Once I understood what they wanted from me things got easier.



1)  "Everything" is an overstatement.  Agree however that I do take issue with much that you say of late.

2)   Do not question your consclusions when you keep them specific to yourself related to your interactions with Wyndham.  Posturing that those conclusions should be reflective of what others are experiencing is a generaliztion you are not in a position to make. 

3)  Whatever conversations you may, or may not, have had with other suspended owners are hearsay.  Wyndham sales people basically use the same methodolgy to influence others.  Am not saying you have not had those conversations, am merely saying it is your reflection of the conversations and possibly comes with it's own unique filter.  It's not credible information, it's hearsay.

4)  "You are wrong" has yet to be a venacular that I have used in association with my responses. Perhaps you are generalizing the information again?

5) How should you feel about what, specifically?  The question is too generalized.  And, why would you expect me to give you a response? It's not for me to say how you should or should not feel about anything.  But I WILL challenge you when you try to posture to the masses how THEY should or should not feel about stuff.  People have a right to their feelings.  What they do with them is up to them. 

6) Your experience with being privileged to having discussion with Wyndham about your own situation is unique to you.  You are not in a credible position to say one way or another if another owner has taken a combative approach, unless you were actually present at the time those conversations took place. Nor is it for you to say if other owners have been willing to work cooperatively with Wyndham in this process unless you have been exposed to those conversations first hand.  For many, as reflected in this thread, WYN isn't talking to them, period.  Combative or cooperative, no conversation or discussion coming from WYN, on a continuum, is disrepectful and speaks to an overt intent either punish the owner or hide truth about the ongoing situation. 

Ron, do not question your opinions, per se. They are yours and we all have our own unique perspective and opinions in this forum.  Generalizing those opinions and posturing them as though they are the same, or should be or implying that they are the same, as other owners however is what creates the questions. Keep it to the first person. Not everyone stands in the same bucket you do.  

Get that you dislike being challenged. Will be happy to dial it back when you bring it back to first person statements only.


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## bogey21

From 50,000 feet and not being a Wyndham Owner my 20 cents is that I agree with Ron's approach.  During my 40 years or so as a business executive I found it worked best if I did whatever it took to open a dialog with the other party.  Once I was able to do that and thoroughly understand the other side's point of view I found I was better able to negotiate (or not negotiate and dig in my heels) a solution beneficial to me.

George


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## am1

bogey21 said:


> From 50,000 feet and not being a Wyndham Owner my 20 cents is that I agree with Ron's approach.  During my 40 years or so as a business executive I found it worked best if I did whatever it took to open a dialog with the other party.  Once I was able to do that and thoroughly understand the other side's point of view I found I was better able to negotiate (or not negotiate and dig in my heels) a solution beneficial to me.
> 
> George



Like you said easy to say but after almost 4 months with no end in sight not very practical.  If it was with a reputable entity I would agree but that is not the case here.


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## henley1

wjappraise said:


> That is likely why my mood and attitude are diminishing, not improving.  The most recent phone call update I received from Wyndham was on SEPTEMBER 27, 2016!!  Let that sink in for a little bit. . . .  ten weeks since any type of update.
> 
> Of course, that date was coincidentally placed one week after I needed to use my ARP for an event our large group does every Thanksgiving.  We reserve ten rooms, most being larger Presidential Reserve suites at Bonnet Creek, using my PR ARP at Bonnet Creek that activates at 14 months.  It was the SOLE reason I purchased up to the Presidential Reserve level (I know, stupid, but it was before I found TUG).  So, once my account was thawed enough to allow for that, I no longer had access to any of the 3- or 4-bedroom units we use for our group.  And that is the entire reason I have my Wyndham account, is for this trip.  So, I see no "light" at the end of the tunnel, just a bill every month that must be paid.   Even when I remove emotion from the formula, the net result is not a pleasant result, not by a long shot.




Can I infer from this post that Presidential Reserve owners are able to jump in front of regular deeded owners to reserve the best units first?  If this is true, isn't that a bit unfair to non PR owners who made purchases prior to the existence of the PR program?  And what is to stop them from creating an entirely different ownership level that allows for 15 month ARP (which a PR owner could access by buying more points of course).


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## bnoble

Think of Presidential Reserve as a separate "club" with its own inventory.  Most (but not all) of that inventory is exclusive to PR owners, until quite close to check-in. At that point, "regular Wyndham" owners can book PR inventory. Nothing that was in the "regular Wyndham" bucket got moved to PR, so there are "Presidential" units that aren't part of "Presidential Reserve."

PR owners can book "regular Wyndham" inventory according to the regular Wyndham rules, but if they do so, an equivalent amount of PR inventory is made available "early" to regular Wyndham owners.

Here are the details:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/394


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## am1

bnoble said:


> Can I infer from this post that Presidential Reserve owners are able to jump in front of regular deeded owners to reserve the best units first?​
> Think of Presidential Reserve as a separate "club" with its own inventory.  Most of that inventory is exclusive to PR owners, until quite close to check-in. At that point, "regular Wyndham" owners can book PR inventory. Nothing that was in the "regular Wyndham" bucket got moved to PR, so there are "Presidential" units that aren't part of "Presidential Reserve."
> 
> PR owners can book "regular Wyndham" inventory according to the regular Wyndham rules, but if they do so, an equivalent amount of PR inventory is made available "early" to regular Wyndham owners.



True.  While I do not agree with PR owners being able to book whatever they want at 10 months that is the way it was set up.  A very good sales tool.  Why do PR owners get first pick of what they want and non pr owners have to wait to see when pr inventory is released.  Overall it is small potatoes and regulars could be grateful to get whatever is left over from Pr inventory it is not fair.


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## tschwa2

am1,  At one point I remember reading that in order to receive a "thaw" status on frozen accounts, you had to agree to several of Wyndham terms.  I don't remember what they were other than one was you agree not to sell, give away or transfer any of your accounts until the audit was certified as complete.   Did you agree to those terms and still did not receive the Thaw status or did you refuse to agree?   I am just trying to see why some accounts were thawed to the point of making reservations and others were not.


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## bnoble

am1 said:


> it is not fair.


It doesn't have to be "fair" because they are legally separate timeshare systems. It's also worth noting that you can acquire PR access via resale---you just aren't eligible for the (dubious) "pay to play" perks nor VIP benefits. But, you can get access to the units on PR rules.


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## am1

tschwa2 said:


> am1,  At one point I remember reading that in order to receive a "thaw" status on frozen accounts, you had to agree to several of Wyndham terms.  I don't remember what they were other than one was you agree not to sell, give away or transfer any of your accounts until the audit was certified as complete.   Did you agree to those terms and still did not receive the Thaw status or did you refuse to agree?   I am just trying to see why some accounts were thawed to the point of making reservations and others were not.



I was never offered those terms. I was other terms that were not very favorable.


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## tschwa2

I believe there were other terms but I don't think anyone shared what they all were.  So then the difference between the thawed and frozen accounts are that the thawed owners agreed to Wyndham terms.


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## chapjim

henley1 said:


> Can I infer from this post that Presidential Reserve owners are able to jump in front of regular deeded owners to reserve the best units first?  If this is true, isn't that a bit unfair to non PR owners who made purchases prior to the existence of the PR program?  And what is to stop them from creating an entirely different ownership level that allows for 15 month ARP (which a PR owner could access by buying more points of course).


What makes it not unfair is PR owners spent a pi$$pot full of money to achieve PR status.  There's nothing stopping anyone from doing the same (except for the cost).


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## ronparise

You have me all wrong. If I gave the impression that I was speaking for anyone, that's just not what im trying to do. 

I'm not speaking for anyone; I'm speaking to those that are frustrated by what's happening. With the hope that my experience might help put them at ease, to some degree

I've been there. Sleepless nights and absolute panic, frustration and tears when I'd be playing out the various possibilities in my head. Even when discussions began moving in an acceptable direction there were emotional ups and downs day to day.  Only now that we are so close to a resolution I can taste it, have I been able to relax

The income I derive from timeshares is, except for a little social security check , my only income. And once I started to count on that income I stupididly adjusted my lifestyle to match it.  (I even bought a yacht).  When that income abruptly stopped on August 23 I was in trouble, 

So now I m on a path toward a resolution. I know I'm further along than  most.  I am sleeping better  because  as I said, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

 I'm not speaking for anyone but maybe my experience will help some other to understand that  they are in a tunnel and not hole and there really is an end to it.    Maybe not.  but thats been my experience


----------



## henley1

chapjim said:


> What makes it not unfair is PR owners spent a pi$$pot full of money to achieve PR status.  There's nothing stopping anyone from doing the same (except for the cost).



If PR has it's own inventory, then sure, it's not unfair.  But if they are able to book non PR rooms prior to non PR owners who purchased before PR existed, then it it unfair.  Non PR owners purchased with the understanding that they had first dibs at their deeded property.  If WYN changed the rules after the fact to put someone in front of them, then it is unfair.


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## ecwinch

BellaWyn - I fail to understand the crusade you seemingly are on, nor do I understand your need to persecute Ron by taking exception to almost every post he makes recently [in this thread].

He is offering a general message that he is hopeful that this is going to be resolved. He is not offering any ironclad assurances to any others that it will be. And as is his posting style he is offering his over-generalized opinions on some of the behind the scenes info he has gleaned.

Not sure why that drives you into the frenzy you seemingly are in based on the mulitude of your posts directed at him. Do you feel your diatribe is helping the conversation?


----------



## whitewater

ecwinch said:


> BellaWyn - I fail to understand the crusade you seemingly are on, nor do I understand your need to persecute Ron by taking exception to almost every post he makes.
> 
> He is offering a general message that he is hopeful that this is going to be resolved. He is not offering any ironclad assurances to any others that it will be. And as is his posting style he is offering his over-generalized opinions on the some of the behind the scenes info he has gleaned.
> 
> Not sure why that drives you into the frenzy you seemingly are in based on the mulitude of your posts directed at him. How do you feel your diatribe is helping the conversation?


x2 - not sure I get it either.


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## comicbookman

me either


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## am1

henley1 said:


> If PR has it's own inventory, then sure, it's not unfair.  But if they are able to book non PR rooms prior to non PR owners who purchased before PR existed, then it it unfair.  Non PR owners purchased with the understanding that they had first dibs at their deeded property.  If WYN changed the rules after the fact to put someone in front of them, then it is unfair.



PR owners only get access to non pr units at 10 months to check in like everyone else. What I find unfair is it is the pr owners who get to book non pr units inside 10 months before non pr units can book pr units. At what point are pr units released to compensate non pr owners?  Pr are units that are released to non pr owners can go back to just being for pr owners if cancelled.  It is not the same with pr owners booking non pr inventory.  

Just like Club Wyndham access units being held for CWA owners at 13 - 10 months.  That devalues my arp and chances of being able to book a reservation at my home resort.


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## am1

Speaking of points being out of whack.  Who is going to compensate me for not being able to get my discounts, upgrades, being able to shorten a reservation, reservations I was not able to cancel because no one answered the phone or called me back, reservations I could not use because no one would allow me to add a guest name to the reservation before check in, points that expired or will expire this December.  Should it be the trust or Corporate Wyndham?  What would be fair?


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## ecwinch

am1 said:


> Speaking of points being out of whack.  Who is going to compensate me for not being able to get my discounts, upgrades, being able to shorten a reservation, reservations I was not able to cancel because no one answered the phone or called me back, reservations I could not use because no one would allow me to add a guest name to the reservation before check in, points that expired or will expire this December.  Should it be the trust or Corporate Wyndham?  What would be fair?



What is fair?  I think that hinges on what potential counter-claim the trust have against any potential damages you have suffered.


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## raygo123

am1 said:


> Speaking of points being out of whack.  Who is going to compensate me for not being able to get my discounts, upgrades, being able to shorten a reservation, reservations I was not able to cancel because no one answered the phone or called me back, reservations I could not use because no one would allow me to add a guest name to the reservation before check in, points that expired or will expire this December.  Should it be the trust or Corporate Wyndham?  What would be fair?


I think that Will be very difficult to do.  The problem with compensation is that even tho Wyndham has ignored or turned a blind eye, or doesn't have the ability to enforce their own rules, I believe that any action against Wyndham for compensation would be somewhat futile.


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## John or Jane Doe

raygo123 said:


> I think that Will be very difficult to do.  The problem with compensation is that even tho Wyndham has ignored or turned a blind eye, or doesn't have the ability to enforce their own rules, I believe that any action against Wyndham for compensation would be somewhat futile.



I know I have not nearly the amount of skin in this game as am1,  however I asked for similar compensation for my thawed account. For example, I was unfrozen around Sept 26 and had points expiring Sept 30. Originally I was told they would extend the expiration date of those points.  However that did not happen and now I am told it won't happen. I am told I could have used them. I just don't know how they can say such things with a straight face or a clear conscience. When I said a 4 day window to find and use a reservation isn't reasonable she said I could have transferred the points to RCI.  Other things happened to me as well, couldn't upgrade, couldn't book several things family was asking about (and availability was there) couldn't cancel, etc. I took screen shots and have documentation but it didn't matter to the last person I spoke with. 

For me,  I'll most likely move on as it just isn't worth the battle. Of course that is dependent on the final outcome of all of this. 

Hoping this is nearing an end and we're cleared (soon) of any further restrictions,  etc.


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## BellaWyn

raygo123 said:


> I think that Will be very difficult to do.  The problem with compensation is that even tho Wyndham has ignored or turned a blind eye, or doesn't have the ability to enforce their own rules, I believe that any action against Wyndham for compensation would be somewhat futile.


Perhaps costly, drawn out for a very long period of time, and a huge headache to pursue, but not wholely futile, per se.  WYN dislikes having their dirty laundry aired in a court of public opinion.  If an owner, or group of owners, had enough evidence of enough dirty laundry, they would attempt a settlement.


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## bnoble

henley1 said:


> But if they are able to book non PR rooms prior to non PR owners who purchased before PR existed, then it it unfair.


They are not. They can only book non-PR inventory at 10 months, just like any other Wyndham owner.



ecwinch said:


> BellaWyn - I fail to understand the crusade you seemingly are on


Add me to this chorus.


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## ecwinch

BellaWyn said:


> Perhaps costly, drawn out for a very long period of time, and a huge headache to pursue, but not wholely futile, per se.  WYN dislikes having their dirty laundry aired in a court of public opinion.  If an owner, or group of owners, had enough evidence of enough dirty laundry, they would attempt a settlement.



I have started to suspect this is your agenda and why you are taking such exception to Ron's posts that things will be worked out.


----------



## BellaWyn

ecwinch said:


> I have started to suspect this is your agenda and why you are taking such exception to Ron's posts that things will be worked out.


As is the spirit of TUG you certainly have a right to your suspicions, inaccurate as it is.  it was simply a response to something unrelated to any of Ron's posts, which I have never taken any exception to his posturing of working things out or being agreeable in the process.


----------



## am1

John or Jane Doe said:


> I know I have not nearly the amount of skin in this game as am1,  however I asked for similar compensation for my thawed account. For example, I was unfrozen around Sept 26 and had points expiring Sept 30. Originally I was told they would extend the expiration date of those points.  However that did not happen and now I am told it won't happen. I am told I could have used them. I just don't know how they can say such things with a straight face or a clear conscience. When I said a 4 day window to find and use a reservation isn't reasonable she said I could have transferred the points to RCI.  Other things happened to me as well, couldn't upgrade, couldn't book several things family was asking about (and availability was there) couldn't cancel, etc. I took screen shots and have documentation but it didn't matter to the last person I spoke with.
> 
> For me,  I'll most likely move on as it just isn't worth the battle. Of course that is dependent on the final outcome of all of this.
> 
> Hoping this is nearing an end and we're cleared (soon) of any further restrictions,  etc.



I would hope you would fight for what Wyndham took from you and damages.  Does not seem like Wyndham is acting in good faith when we hear these things.


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## wjappraise

henley1 said:


> Can I infer from this post that Presidential Reserve owners are able to jump in front of regular deeded owners to reserve the best units first?  If this is true, isn't that a bit unfair to non PR owners who made purchases prior to the existence of the PR program?  And what is to stop them from creating an entirely different ownership level that allows for 15 month ARP (which a PR owner could access by buying more points of course).



The answer to this is a resounding "No."  Presidential Reserve owners are allowed to use ARP for ONLY PR inventory that is available at their home resort at the 14 month window, and other PR inventory at other PR resorts at 12 month window.  There are only a dozen or so (maybe a few more now) resorts that have dedicated PR inventory.  And this inventory is only available to PR owners until it hits 30 day window, at which point they open up to all Club Wyndham owners.  Ron has pointed out in the past that this inventory is similar to the Margaritaville properties and inventory and its owners.  

I cannot use ARP to get non-PR units.  I can only reserve those at the ten-month window.  I have NO ability to get those non-PR units any earlier than anyone else.  So, it is a benefit to have PR for the few resorts and few units but it does not unfairly place a PR owner above other non-PR owners for regular inventory.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> True.  While I do not agree with PR owners being able to book whatever they want at 10 months that is the way it was set up.  A very good sales tool.  Why do PR owners get first pick of what they want and non pr owners have to wait to see when pr inventory is released.  Overall it is small potatoes and regulars could be grateful to get whatever is left over from Pr inventory it is not fair.



As a PR owner, I can state unequivocally that I do NOT get access to non-PR inventory prior to the ten month window when it comes available to all Club Wyndham owners.  I do have access to PR units at 14 months at my "home" resort and at other PR resorts at 12 months, but ONLY for PR units, nothing more.


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## wjappraise

henley1 said:


> If PR has it's own inventory, then sure, it's not unfair.  But if they are able to book non PR rooms prior to non PR owners who purchased before PR existed, then it it unfair.  Non PR owners purchased with the understanding that they had first dibs at their deeded property.  If WYN changed the rules after the fact to put someone in front of them, then it is unfair.



PR does have its own inventory.  PR owners do NOT have ARP access to non-PR rooms at ANY resort, including their home resort.  For instance, I am a PR owner at Bonnet Creek.  I can book PR rooms there 14 months prior.  However, if I wish to book a non-PR room, I have to wait until 10 months to do so, even though it is my home resort.  It is really odd, but I have several years of being denied trying to book deluxe units as precedent setting history.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> The answer to this is a resounding "No."  Presidential Reserve owners are allowed to use ARP for ONLY PR inventory that is available at their home resort at the 14 month window, and other PR inventory at other PR resorts at 12 month window.  There are only a dozen or so (maybe a few more now) resorts that have dedicated PR inventory.  And this inventory is only available to PR owners until it hits 30 day window, at which point they open up to all Club Wyndham owners.  Ron has pointed out in the past that this inventory is similar to the Margaritaville properties and inventory and its owners.
> 
> I cannot use ARP to get non-PR units.  I can only reserve those at the ten-month window.  I have NO ability to get those non-PR units any earlier than anyone else.  So, it is a benefit to have PR for the few resorts and few units but it does not unfairly place a PR owner above other non-PR owners for regular inventory.



But at 10 months you have access to non pr inventory as well as pr inventory held for pr owners.  If it was not for regular owners then there would be no non pr inventory to book.  To me Wyndham made PR more valuable by doing this at a cost to non pr owners.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> But at 10 months you have access to non pr inventory as well as pr inventory held for pr owners.  If it was not for regular owners then there would be no non pr inventory to book.  To me Wyndham made PR more valuable by doing this at a cost to non pr owners.



I'm not sure I follow the logic.  You are correct that at ten months I have access to non-PR inventory.  That is the same as any owner in Club Wyndham.  Think of it as an ARP at a home resort.  While that owner has access to that resort at 13 months, he has access to all other resorts at ten months.  All non-owners for that resort have equal access to the ten month inventory.  It's the same way with PR accounts. And that's the way it's presented, packaged, and sold.  If PR had access to ARP non-PR units I could see your "unfair" characterization.  But that's not the case.  It would be like feeling that an owner who has ARP at Royal Vista shouldn't have ten month access at Bonnet Creek. Or vice versa.  It just doesn't make sense.  

Just as a side note.  My usage involves booking PR rooms for our large Thanksgiving group each year. When I have 14 month ARP (did not have it this year for the 2017 trip due to frozen account) I use up all of my PR points leaving nothing to use for the ten month open window.  So, my method takes me out of the running for inventory you and other users are wanting.

And that was my entire reason for surrendering a king's ransom to buy up to Presidential Reserve.  Of course I did this before finding TUG.  If I could do it all over I wouldn't buy any Wyndham contracts.  Not even resale. I'd simply align myself with you or another large points owner / manager and purchase the rooms that way.  At this point, with the four month debacle looking to stretch into more time, I would welcome a Wyndham buyout of my holdings.


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## Roger830

wjappraise said:


> I'm not sure I follow the logic.  You are correct that at ten months I have access to non-PR inventory.  That is the same as any owner in Club Wyndham.


My understanding of what am1 is saying is you have access to all inventory at 10 months, but non pr members don't have access to your pr inventory at 10 months. This creates more demand than supply.


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## wjappraise

Roger830 said:


> My understanding of what am1 is saying is you have access to all inventory at 10 months, but non pr members don't have access to your pr inventory at 10 months. This creates more demand than supply.



True.  Except for the fact that I use the PR points for PR inventory.  It's the only logical way to use those points.  A PR contract is more expensive.  And the MFs are higher too, so it only appeals to the subset of owners who want the PR units.  The supply and demand balance cares for itself with the PR inventory and owner balance.


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## am1

Roger830 said:


> My understanding of what am1 is saying is you have access to all inventory at 10 months, but non pr members don't have access to your pr inventory at 10 months. This creates more demand than supply.



Yes that is how I feel.  Not really worth debating more as it is what Wyndham created but does show that Wyndham does not care about prior owners, just making new sales.


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## Jan M.

am1 said:


> But at 10 months you have access to non pr inventory as well as pr inventory held for pr owners.  If it was not for regular owners then there would be no non pr inventory to book.  To me Wyndham made PR more valuable by doing this at a cost to non pr owners.



We all paid a ridiculous amount of money to be Presidential Reserve in addition to being Platinum owners. It helps to understand the benefits if you think of PR as an enhanced Platinum level. Wyndham is in business to make money and they make the rules; all they are interested in is getting people to buy directly from them and to keep people buying more. If you look in the directory online you will see the benefits of the different levels listed. It is like any Wyndham program, if you want the benefits of that program you have to spend the money to purchase it directly from Wyndham or you do not get it. That is the reason resale is so cheap. Small contracts when purchased directly from Wyndham are basically just a teaser to get you to buy more so you get the benefits. You don't get to whine and say it isn't fair that you don't get something you didn't pay for. If Wyndham hasn't yet they will come up with something above Presidential Reserve and anyone who wants the benefits of that level will have to spend more money to have the "latest and greatest". Let me tell you that won't be us!

The amount of Presidential Reserve inventory available to for PR owners to book before it is opened to all owners isn't nearly what you think it is. First of all the number of resorts that have Presidential Reserve inventory is quite limited, only a small percentage of the total number of Wyndham resorts are Presidential Reserve resorts. Next only a certain percentage of the presidential inventory at those resorts is held for the PR owners. If you are still thinking that it doesn't sound like such a bad deal, well here is the rest of the story. Wyndham decides how much of the presidential inventory gets held as presidential reserve. The percentage of good inventory is much more limited than what most of us realize because what they don't tell you is that a large percentage of what is actually held for PR owners is undesirable off season inventory. You'd think that the percentage would be evenly spread among all the presidential units at all the PR resorts all year round but that isn't the case as I learned when I questioned why I wasn't able to find reservations. To achieve the required percentage the program specifies, they hold a limited amount of the "good" inventory that anyone actually wants to book and virtually all of the undesirable inventory at the resorts that have a definite seasonal appeal. Want to go to Panama City Beach or Myrtle Beach in January or early February? Probably not as that is when a lot of the restaurants and businesses close because it is so slow due to the cold weather. How about the last couple weeks of August at some of the ski resorts that have very little to offer outside of skiing season? Even the staff will tell you it is hot, miserable and there is nothing to do. So again, no. Oh and don't forget that those PR units are a huge number of points to book! So if you use your ARP to book a good reservation and have to have those dates, have flights booked, etc. you aren't likely to risk cancelling and re-booking the reservation to get your discount benefit because there is so much competition for those good reservations that you run a very, very high risk of losing the reservation. As another PR owner said, he could rent from another owner cheaper than the maintenance fees on the points he uses to book his stays and he wouldn't have spent a single penny to buy anything. While this isn't always the case it is unfortunately becoming more and more common.

The best way I can compare it is to think of it as a roll of bills that is supposed to contain a large amount of money that you are owed. But when you take the rubber band off the roll and actually see what is in it, on the outside are a few hundreds and fifties, then a few twenties followed by a few tens and fives but by the time you are 35-40% of the way through the roll there is nothing left but a few ones mixed in with a lot of cut up pieces of paper. You just got had and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.

Yeah, I admit it, I'm whining. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to buy. Wish I had known about TUG sooner.

I might have some sympathy for your way of thinking if ALL the presidential inventory at all of the presidential resorts was held for only PR owners to within 30-45 days of check in but that isn't how it works. Every owner of every level has access to the available inventory at 10 months and there are even presidential units included in what is available because not all of the presidential units at the presidential resorts are held for PR owners. So you as a regular owner have access to what we PR owners could think of as "our inventory" if we thought like you do. Funny but I haven't seen a single PR owner blaming what you call "regular owners" for our problems. And again PR owners are also "regular owners".


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## am1

Jan M. said:


> We all paid a ridiculous amount of money to be Presidential Reserve in addition to being Platinum owners. It helps to understand the benefits if you think of PR as an enhanced Platinum level. Wyndham is in business to make money and they make the rules; all they are interested in is getting people to buy directly from them and to keep people buying more. If you look in the directory online you will see the benefits of the different levels listed. It is like any Wyndham program, if you want the benefits of that program you have to spend the money to purchase it directly from Wyndham or you do not get it. That is the reason resale is so cheap. Small contracts when purchased directly from Wyndham are basically just a teaser to get you to buy more so you get the benefits. You don't get to whine and say it isn't fair that you don't get something you didn't pay for. If Wyndham hasn't yet they will come up with something above Presidential Reserve and anyone who wants the benefits of that level will have to spend more money to have the "latest and greatest". Let me tell you that won't be us!
> 
> The amount of Presidential Reserve inventory available to for PR owners to book before it is opened to all owners isn't nearly what you think it is. First of all the number of resorts that have Presidential Reserve inventory is quite limited, only a small percentage of the total number of Wyndham resorts are Presidential Reserve resorts. Next only a certain percentage of the presidential inventory at those resorts is held for the PR owners. If you are still thinking that it doesn't sound like such a bad deal, well here is the rest of the story. Wyndham decides how much of the presidential inventory gets held as presidential reserve. The percentage of good inventory is much more limited than what most of us realize because what they don't tell you is that a large percentage of what is actually held for PR owners is undesirable off season inventory. You'd think that the percentage would be evenly spread among all the presidential units at all the PR resorts all year round but that isn't the case as I learned when I questioned why I wasn't able to find reservations. To achieve the required percentage the program specifies, they hold a limited amount of the "good" inventory that anyone actually wants to book and virtually all of the undesirable inventory at the resorts that have a definite seasonal appeal. Want to go to Panama City Beach or Myrtle Beach in January or early February? Probably not as that is when a lot of the restaurants and businesses close because it is so slow due to the cold weather. How about the last couple weeks of August at some of the ski resorts that have very little to offer outside of skiing season? Even the staff will tell you it is hot, miserable and there is nothing to do. So again, no. Oh and don't forget that those PR units are a huge number of points to book! So if you use your ARP to book a good reservation and have to have those dates, have flights booked, etc. you aren't likely to risk cancelling and re-booking the reservation to get your discount benefit because there is so much competition for those good reservations that you run a very, very high risk of losing the reservation. As another PR owner said, he could rent from another owner cheaper than the maintenance fees on the points he uses to book his stays and he wouldn't have spent a single penny to buy anything. While this isn't always the case it is unfortunately becoming more and more common.
> 
> The best way I can compare it is to think of it as a roll of bills that is supposed to contain a large amount of money that you are owed. But when you take the rubber band off the roll and actually see what is in it, on the outside are a few hundreds and fifties, then a few twenties followed by a few tens and fives but by the time you are 35-40% of the way through the roll there is nothing left but a few ones mixed in with a lot of cut up pieces of paper. You just got had and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
> 
> Yeah, I admit it, I'm whining. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to buy. Wish I had known about TUG sooner.
> 
> I might have some sympathy for your way of thinking if ALL the presidential inventory at all of the presidential resorts was held for only PR owners to within 30-45 days of check in but that isn't how it works. Every owner of every level has access to the available inventory at 10 months and there are even presidential units included in what is available because not all of the presidential units at the presidential resorts are held for PR owners. So you as a regular owner have access to what we PR owners could think of as "our inventory" if we thought like you do. Funny but I haven't seen a single PR owner blaming regular owners for our problems.




Well said but i am sure there are reasons why pr inventory is released early to everyone.  Maybe it is unsold or pr owners booked non pr inventory.  But I still do not think its right that Wyndham allows pr owners to be able to book pr inventory or non pr inventory inside 10 months to check in with pr points but non pr owners are limited in hat they can book.  I will not comment further on this as I do not want to take away from the main issues of this thread.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> Well said but i am sure there are reasons why pr inventory is released early to everyone.  Maybe it is unsold or pr owners booked non pr inventory.  But I still do not think its right that Wyndham allows pr owners to be able to book pr inventory or non pr inventory inside 10 months to check in with pr points but non pr owners are limited in hat they can book.  I will not comment further on this as I do not want to take away from the main issues of this thread.



The simple explanation is a PR owner IS a regular owner who has paid an upcharge to also, not instead of but ALSO, have access to a limited amount of restricted inventory. It is all in the VIP benefit section of the directory. Do you realize that you are basically saying the program should only be allowed to work in a way that benefits you? Do you think for even a minute that Wyndham would create or be able to sell such a cockamamie program like you are suggesting?

Of course Wyndham has a reason for holding back some of the inventory. The potential to make sales and make more MONEY! Everything is ALWAYS about the money. ALWAYS!

I'm sorry if you think I'm coming down too hard on you. I know you are angry and frustrated beyond belief with everything that is going on and I don't blame you one bit. When your situation gets resolved, although I seriously doubt it will be entirely to your satisfaction, I do sincerely hope it is resolved with at least some degree of satisfaction to you. I will share with you some valuable advise that was given to me a few years ago by an acquaintance who knows a great deal about Wyndham. He told me to either get over what I had learned about Wyndham that had me so disillusioned and enjoy my ownership or sell it and get out. It took me a couple of months before I was able to accept it as a lesson learned to be wary when it comes to anything to do with Wyndham and during that time I stayed away from using the resorts until I could adjust my attitude. I'm glad I listened to him because I've encountered some owners who were so bitter it was all they could talk about and it spoiled their ability to enjoy their stays.

I truly think Wyndham has a good product and cannot understand why they continue to cheapen and degrade it with their unscrupulous sales tactics and the way they treat the owners. It is insulting and disrespectful that we are paying them to keep taking more and more from us not to mention all the cuts they are making at the resorts to increase their profits at our expense. In all the years we have owned the only thing that I can think of that has improved is the ability to do stuff online. In other posts people who have owned for years have mentioned a number of things that have changed and not for the better. If anyone reading this can think of something that's improved with Wyndham or the resorts, besides being able to use the website, please post it. We could all use some encouragement.

I remember when we first owned and people looked at you askance when you said you owned a timeshare. I find myself wondering since the freeze started and now with the details about the big lawsuit settlement being released, if when I thought things had changed for the better, it was all just smoke and mirrors and the rot beneath the surface was always there. I hope this new CEO can bring some ethics, dignity and respectability to this company.


----------



## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> My usage involves booking PR rooms for our large Thanksgiving group each year. When I have 14 month ARP (did not have it this year for the 2017 trip due to frozen account) I use up all of my PR points leaving nothing to use for the ten month open window. So, my method takes me out of the running for inventory you and other users are wanting.



To bring this back to topic, it really doesn't matter what level of ownership the Suspended Accounts owners have.  For most, their accounts essentially got locked because of WYN's mis-management of the accounting of the points and WYN's ongoing inability to accuractly reconcile owners accounts.  

The fallout is that those owners lost ability to navigate their accounts and employ benefits associated with whatever level they purchased with minimal communication from WYN and no definative indication of when they will be fully restored.

Regardless of the level or volume of points owned, this has been a costly and frustrating process for those owners.  Most did not knowingly exploit WYN's point accounting problem that put excess points into their accounts.  Those very few that did, are now having to negotiate their way to settlement.  In the meantime, audits are still happening and owners are paying MF's on accounts they cannot fully use.


----------



## bnoble

am1 said:


> i am sure there are reasons why pr inventory is released early to everyone.


According to "the book", 25% of available PR inventory is open for all owners during the 10-month window, until the 30 day window hits.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> I will not comment further on this as I do not want to take away from the main issues of this thread.



Good reminder.  Too easy to get off topic.  And we need to remember, while we each have personal agendas, all of us have a stake in how this debacle is resolved.  So, back to the main issue of this thread: Have you had any progress in getting your accounts thawed?  It appears most of the impacted owners have at least been granted the ability to make and cancel reservations as well as add guest names via the website.  If you have not, is there anything the rest of us can do to help?


----------



## wjappraise

BellaWyn said:


> To bring this back to topic, it really doesn't matter what level of ownership the Suspended Accounts owners have.  For most, their accounts essentially got locked because of WYN's mis-management of the accounting of the points and WYN's ongoing inability to accuractly reconcile owners accounts.
> 
> The fallout is that those owners lost ability to navigate their accounts and employ benefits associated with whatever level they purchased with minimal communication from WYN and no definative indication of when they will be fully restored.
> 
> Regardless of the level or volume of points owned, this has been a costly and frustrating process for those owners.  Most did not knowingly exploit WYN's point accounting problem that put excess points into their accounts.  Those very few that did, are now having to negotiate their way to settlement.  In the meantime, audits are still happening and owners are paying MF's on accounts they cannot fully use.



Well stated.  And the damages to the impacted owners has run the gamut from the $30 extra charge needed to call in a guest name as opposed to entering it on the website, to the inability to even place a guest name on a reservation thus having numerous reservations cancelled due to duplicate reservations under the owner name, to the inability to "trim" a reservation down to the actual days needed, to the inability to use ARP to reserves rooms within that window, to the inability to properly use credit pool for unused points. . . .  I could go on and on, but this well illustrates the damages to each and every owner that was suspended without due process, that need compensation.


----------



## am1

Not to comment further on but to clarify one thing.  Not all pr inventory becomes available to non or owners at 30 days or even at 15 days to check in. Regardless of what is stated in the book or on the website.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Not to comment further on or bit to clarify one thing.  Not all pr inventory becomes available to non or owners at 30 days or even at 15 days to check in. Regardless of what is stated in the book or on the website.



I concur.  I believe the majority of that inventory goes straight to Extra Holidays.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> I concur.  I believe the majority of that inventory goes straight to Extra Holidays.


Some goes back to pr inventory even if at 10, 8 or 5 months it was available to non pr owners.


----------



## BellaWyn

am1 said:


> Some goes back to pr inventory even if at 10, 8 or 5 months it was available to non pr owners.


Jan did a good job explaining how that worked because WYN averages the "available" PR inventory across the entire system, not on a per-resort basis.  At 10 months, points are still mostly just points and work the same way for pretty much everyone.  Any high value PR units in high traffic resorts were already stripped out of those inventories with either PR owner ARP's or mega-renters and point managers that have access to PR accounts.

To tie this back to the original discussion, WJ (aka wjappraise) paid a a very high premium for that 14 month priviledge at his home resort for a very specific reason (not for status or ego or whatever other motivation people distort the reasons why PR owners have what they have - all judgement aside because it was before the discovery of TUG). WYN kept him from that purchased benefit and it's one of many costly damages.

Will WJ (or any suspended owners) be compensated for those damages (which are still being driven by WYN's mis-management of points BTW)?

The answer will eventially fall to whether or not WYN thinks it can legally skirt the ethics question of their role in the responsibility of the mis-management of the accounting.  Eventually, at the completion of the audits, they will need to explain to the suspended owners the audit discovery.  Whether the owners accept the discovery as valid will be up to those individuals.

Keep in mind that even the big wheel of the IRS will PAY the taxpayer interest on overpayment of monies that were discovered as erroneously paid.

WYN & ethics -- kinda like oil & water.


----------



## wjappraise

BellaWyn said:


> Jan did a good job explaining how that worked because WYN averages the "available" PR inventory across the entire system, not on a per-resort basis.  At 10 months, points are still mostly just points and work the same way for pretty much everyone.  Any high value PR units in high traffic resorts were already stripped out of those inventories with either PR owner ARP's or mega-renters and point managers that have access to PR accounts.
> 
> To tie this back to the original discussion, WJ (aka wjappraise) paid a a very high premium for that 14 month priviledge at his home resort for a very specific reason (not for status or ego or whatever other motivation people distort the reasons why PR owners have what they have - all judgement aside because it was before the discovery of TUG). WYN kept him from that purchased benefit and it's one of many costly damages.
> 
> Will WJ (or any suspended owners) be compensated for those damages (which are still being driven by WYN's mis-management of points BTW)?
> 
> The answer will eventially fall to whether or not WYN thinks it can legally skirt the ethics question of their role in the responsibility of the mis-management of the accounting.  Eventually, at the completion of the audits, they will need to explain to the suspended owners the audit discovery.  Whether the owners accept the discovery as valid will be up to those individuals.
> 
> Keep in mind that even the big wheel of the IRS will PAY the taxpayer interest on overpayment of monies that were discovered as erroneously paid.
> 
> WYN & ethics -- kinda like oil & water.



That is the crux of the reconciliation/compensation matter in my opinion.  I have been harmed by the unilateral and heavy handed sanctions placed on my account, especially for the first two months. . . .  By the way, I still have too many points in my account. . . I have told Wyndham exactly how many bogus points show that should not show, but they have done nothing.  I had some that expired June 30, 2016 (before the nuclear winter that Wyndham unleashed on us) that I did not use, nor try to exchange for maintenance fees, because I knew they weren't mine.  Same thing on September 30, 2016.  And another amount is set to expire December 31, 2016, of which the majority are not my points.  There are some that do belong to me per my accounting (which seems more reliable than a billion dollar company's accounting) but I cannot use them to pay maintenance fees, even at the ridiculous amount of $2.10 per 1000 points.  Side point - A few years ago, Wyndham raised the rates to "rent" points but did not raise the rate to exchange points back for maintenance fees.  I believe the Good Book refers to this as having "two sets of scales," and is a condemned practice.  Probably not real high on Wyndham's list of concerns about their treatment of others.


----------



## am1

The 1 hour call back promise on the recording is never met.  What is so difficult in canceling reservations out of my account and adding guest names to existing reservations that requires me to have to call a special number and only speak to people in that newly created branch of owner care?  Why not just have me call the regular owner care number?  Or keep me on hold until someone answers at the 1-877 number.  

Wyndham is doing themselves no favors by treating owners this way. Not surprised and even probably what got them into this mess in the first place.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Wyndham is doing themselves no favors by treating owners this way. Not surprised and even probably what got them into this mess in the first place.



It does seem that their being in hurry to roll out "improvements" to the website reservation/account system (aka Voyager in one of its many incarnations) resulted in the latest snafu.  I wonder if they have solved the IT problem yet?  But I do know that they are very nervous about having the impacted owners in a group "owner update" setting.  When we were at Bonnet Creek the week following Thanksgiving, one of the newer parking pass reps must have missed the fact that I was on the "no fly" list for Wyndham.  She stated she needed a certain number of owners to agree to the update to get a bonus.  I agreed, and even paid the $20 hold fee to hold the spot at breakfast.  Within 20 minutes, she was calling every room (she called five or six before she found me) that we had with the group frantically searching for me.  I went to the lobby and she could not get the $20 back to me soon enough.  The reason given for the change was that I had attended an owner's update too recently.  In reality, the last owner update I attended was three years ago.

I think that speaks to the culture currently at Wyndham: deceive, deny, rinse and repeat.  Why wouldn't she just level with me and state that Wyndham has a "no fly" list and I am on it?  I know that to be the case, and I would appreciate the honesty and integrity of someone to simply state that.  Otherwise, isn't it an insult to my intelligence as an owner, that I am so stupid I can't figure out that 3 years is not a recent time frame for an owner's update?  It is the very same thing with this extra point debacle.  Why didn't Wyndham level with the impacted owners and ask for our assistance?  The fellow owners I have spoken to recount the same story as me with some variation.  Once they went back and looked at their account activity they have been able to determine exactly how many extra points their accounts contain, and some have even figured out exactly how or when those points came into the account. 

I would think that Wyndham has missed out on using one of its best assets, its owners.  Instead it has alienated them (us).


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> It does seem that their being in hurry to roll out "improvements" to the website reservation/account system (aka Voyager in one of its many incarnations) resulted in the latest snafu.  I wonder if they have solved the IT problem yet?  But I do know that they are very nervous about having the impacted owners in a group "owner update" setting.  When we were at Bonnet Creek the week following Thanksgiving, one of the newer parking pass reps must have missed the fact that I was on the "no fly" list for Wyndham.  She stated she needed a certain number of owners to agree to the update to get a bonus.  I agreed, and even paid the $20 hold fee to hold the spot at breakfast.  Within 20 minutes, she was calling every room (she called five or six before she found me) that we had with the group frantically searching for me.  I went to the lobby and she could not get the $20 back to me soon enough.  The reason given for the change was that I had attended an owner's update too recently.  In reality, the last owner update I attended was three years ago.
> 
> I think that speaks to the culture currently at Wyndham: deceive, deny, rinse and repeat.  Why wouldn't she just level with me and state that Wyndham has a "no fly" list and I am on it?  I know that to be the case, and I would appreciate the honesty and integrity of someone to simply state that.  Otherwise, isn't it an insult to my intelligence as an owner, that I am so stupid I can't figure out that 3 years is not a recent time frame for an owner's update?  It is the very same thing with this extra point debacle.  Why didn't Wyndham level with the impacted owners and ask for our assistance?  The fellow owners I have spoken to recount the same story as me with some variation.  Once they went back and looked at their account activity they have been able to determine exactly how many extra points their accounts contain, and some have even figured out exactly how or when those points came into the account.
> 
> I would think that Wyndham has missed out on using one of its best assets, its owners.  Instead it has alienated them (us).



Everyone has a price.  I would think I could have resolved it for less money and damages for the owners.


----------



## jumoe

am1 said:


> Everyone has a price.  I would think I could have resolved it for less money and damages for the owners.


100% agreed.
I am a computer programmer and one of my applications deals with a pool of available tax credits for the year - how they are awarded, and then tracked through sales and transfers, and finally used. Keeping a history of every movement every dollar credit makes throughout its history.  This can be closely paralleled with the concept of the Wyndham points.  It amazes me that they are unable to track down the issues, and how they still cannot balance out the points after so long.   If I told my customer they had to wait 3 months to use their tax credits, I can't imagine the backlash I would get.  I wish I could see their data and logs to see what is happening to these points!


----------



## wjappraise

jumoe said:


> I wish I could see their data and logs to see what is happening to these points!



One of the impacted owners to whom I spoke indicated he also is a programmer.  He requested and received every transaction over the past 12 months to his account and was able to identify the error.  It was on Wyndham's end and was due to a resale contract he purchased and when the points were added to his account, they added another "0" at the end, moving a 500,000 point contract to a 5,000,000 first year points.  He literally emailed them back the results in less than one hour from when he received the raw data.  Of course, it took arguing with Wyndham for more than six weeks for him to receive the raw data, and another two weeks to restore his account once they had received his results.  

I think that single episode speaks volumes about incompetence, but more importantly, arrogance.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> One of the impacted owners to whom I spoke indicated he also is a programmer.  He requested and received every transaction over the past 12 months to his account and was able to identify the error.  It was on Wyndham's end and was due to a resale contract he purchased and when the points were added to his account, they added another "0" at the end, moving a 500,000 point contract to a 5,000,000 first year points.  He literally emailed them back the results in less than one hour from when he received the raw data.  Of course, it took arguing with Wyndham for more than six weeks for him to receive the raw data, and another two weeks to restore his account once they had received his results.
> 
> I think that single episode speaks volumes about incompetence, but more importantly, arrogance.



I guess every company makes choices.  Some of the companies that make bad ones go bankrupt.


----------



## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> One of the impacted owners to whom I spoke indicated he also is a programmer.  He requested and received every transaction over the past 12 months to his account and was able to identify the error.  It was on Wyndham's end and was due to a resale contract he purchased and when the points were added to his account, they added another "0" at the end, moving a 500,000 point contract to a 5,000,000 first year points.  He literally emailed them back the results in less than one hour from when he received the raw data.  Of course, it took arguing with Wyndham for more than six weeks for him to receive the raw data, and another two weeks to restore his account once they had received his results.
> 
> I think that single episode speaks volumes about incompetence, but more importantly, arrogance.




Your post is an eye opening revelation. The start of the *5th month* will begin in just a few days with some people's accounts still being frozen. From following this thread it appears that in their investigations Wyndham uncovered some other glitches in their system they were not aware of and also some input errors. It certainly appears from what people with computer backgrounds have said that they have had more than ample time to fix and reinstate everyone. With the exception of the what I believe to be only a few individuals who are in negotiations with Wyndham over knowingly and repeatedly exploiting glitches. And at this point Wyndham certainly knows exactly who those individuals are and what they have done.

I don't think it is arrogance; I think it is more likely that they are trying to find some way to cover their butts because of the level of their incompetence to maintain an accurate accounting system. It is my understanding that this issue makes them "out of trust" and is their one true Achilles heel. If some smart group of lawyers were to start a class action lawsuit every single owner past and present would be eligible to receive a settlement. But even worse could result in court appointed overseers who might uncover stuff that would get Wyndham into more trouble.


----------



## gottashiner

am1 said:


> Speaking of points being out of whack.  Who is going to compensate me for not being able to get my discounts, upgrades, being able to shorten a reservation, reservations I was not able to cancel because no one answered the phone or called me back, reservations I could not use because no one would allow me to add a guest name to the reservation before check in, points that expired or will expire this December.  Should it be the trust or Corporate Wyndham?  What would be fair?


I filed a claim with the Forida Dept of Business and Professional Regulations.  Waiting to see what happens


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## bogey21

Not a Wyndham Owner but I feel your pain.  This in not only rank incompetence but is also pure arrogance on the part of Wyndham.

George


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## BellaWyn

bogey21 said:


> Not a Wyndham Owner but I feel your pain.  This in not only rank incompetence but is also pure arrogance on the part of Wyndham.
> 
> George


Agree.  As Jan stated, it likely could be considered "out of trust" which is potentially legally actionable if the effected owners were to pursue, keeping in mind if it can happen to a few it could happen to a lot more owners.


----------



## wjappraise

Jan M. said:


> Your post is an eye opening revelation. The start of the *5th month* will begin in just a few days with some people's accounts still being frozen. From following this thread it appears that in their investigations Wyndham uncovered some other glitches in their system they were not aware of and also some input errors. It certainly appears from what people with computer backgrounds have said that they have had more than ample time to fix and reinstate everyone. With the exception of the what I believe to be only a few individuals who are in negotiations with Wyndham over knowingly and repeatedly exploiting glitches. And at this point Wyndham certainly knows exactly who those individuals are and what they have done.
> 
> I don't think it is arrogance; I think it is more likely that they are trying to find some way to cover their butts because of the level of their incompetence to maintain an accurate accounting system. It is my understanding that this issue makes them "out of trust" and is their one true Achilles heel. If some smart group of lawyers were to start a class action lawsuit every single owner past and present would be eligible to receive a settlement. But even worse could result in court appointed overseers who might uncover stuff that would get Wyndham into more trouble.



I am wondering if it will take this (or the very real threat of this) to happen for this issue to be resolved.  At this point, Wyndham is still getting every penny in maintenance fees from the impacted owners, without having to reconcile the accounts.  Do they really have any motivation to expedite this?


----------



## am1

December 31 will be when a lot of points expire.  Anybody that had had their accounts frozen and since thawed heard anything about the use of points being extended?  Even a lost of being able to book for a month would cause owners not to be able to book reservations before the end of the year.  There is very little inventory the last 2 weeks of the year as it is.  Plus people like to have their plans in place for the holidays as far out as possible.  

Changing use years to end at the busiest time of year was never a good idea.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

Hey- wjappraise & am1,
Your post today - Dec 12 2016- mark this threads passing the 1K / 1000 post number !
and 
82,284 views .

I am not sure what else to say as the numbers speak for themselves .


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## am1

My guess is the thread will get to 2000 and 150 000 views before by the time it is resolved.  

Does anyone have any recent updates?


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Does anyone have any recent updates?



Nothing of merit to note.  I did email acctinfo@wyn.com today to request an update as well as a correction (they realigned my use years to one that I had specifically stated I did not want and the rep indicated an alternate use year was viable).  I sent that email this morning, restating what I had told the account rep, the last time anyone contacted me on or about 9/27.  

Anyone have any updates since then?  That was a LONG time ago.


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## jumoe

am1 said:


> I was never offered those terms. I was other terms that were not very favorable.





tschwa2 said:


> I believe there were other terms but I don't think anyone shared what they all were.  So then the difference between the thawed and frozen accounts are that the thawed owners agreed to Wyndham terms.



am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept?  I only had to agree to not add in new contracts.  Still no word on my points audit.


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## am1

I have not had a reply in awhile.  I sent in a request to be provided a number I could call from Mexico and elsewhere and have not received a reply.  Also after leaving a message about wanting to ARP New Years reservations for next year and getting a call back and being told the reservations were booked I never received the confirmation or see them in my account.  I call back in and am told they are not there and at that time have no points that I could use to ARP the reservations.  Because of that the rep could not even tell me if the reservations were still available.  No reply back on that either and I am sure they are gone but have no way to know for sure.  Another few thousand dollars in damages.


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## am1

jumoe said:


> am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept?  I only had to agree to not add in new contracts.  Still no word on my points audit.



I was never actually given a proposal that would result in my accounts being unlocked.  I asked the rep to look into some other issues first and they wanted to speak two weeks ago about their findings.  I told them I was going to busy then and they have not not made contact about rescheduling.  About 3 weeks since their last contact and at that time they are the ones who wanted to talk to me.


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## wjappraise

jumoe said:


> am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept?  I only had to agree to not add in new contracts.  Still no word on my points audit.



I believe my terms were the same as most impacted owners who have been open with their reporting of the situation.  Basically my terms were:

1. No use of automated software programs commonly referred to as “robots,” or simply “bots”; and/or
2. Abide by any Rules and Regulations as set forth and defined in the current CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Membership Directory, Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement and any operative Contracts in which Program Rules and Regulations may be changed, altered or eliminated by WYNDHAM and its affiliates or successor entities in its sole discretion at any time.
3. Not be eligible to convert CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points to pay for maintenance fees;
4. Cannot transfer points from one member number to another member number;
5. Privileges to borrow points suspended as well as ability to pool points beyond available current use year points.

By accepting those terms, I was granted website access to make and cancel reservations as well as add guest certificates.  I am allowed to use ARP rights, but must call the special 877 number that goes unanswered.  When I leave a message, no return call is made.  Emails to the acctinfo@wyn.com are likewise ignored.  So, this process has been a JOKE, to put it mildly.

It would be nice if Wyndham would live up to the terms they have promised, beyond just expecting impacted owners to abide by the agreed upon terms.

I would believe that the harm caused by the ineptitude of Wyndham will be quite easy to prove and to numerate, placing a dollar amount on the harm.


----------



## Don40

wjappraise said:


> I believe my terms were the same as most impacted owners who have been open with their reporting of the situation.  Basically my terms were:
> 
> 1. No use of automated software programs commonly referred to as “robots,” or simply “bots”; and/or
> 2. Abide by any Rules and Regulations as set forth and defined in the current CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Membership Directory, Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement and any operative Contracts in which Program Rules and Regulations may be changed, altered or eliminated by WYNDHAM and its affiliates or successor entities in its sole discretion at any time.
> 3. Not be eligible to convert CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points to pay for maintenance fees;
> 4. Cannot transfer points from one member number to another member number;
> 5. Privileges to borrow points suspended as well as ability to pool points beyond available current use year points.
> .



If everyone got the same terms this is my opinion on how Wyndham plans on dealing with this years extra points. Bullets 3-5. Basically say use your points this year in Wyndham mind after this year the extra points in the system are gone.  (3) no paying maintenance equals no dollars out the trust on potential false points. (4) This was not allowed for years now (some smart person or persons must have found away to do it). (5) No borrowing or pooling eguals (Wyndham is not smart enough or capable to fully account for total points in the system.)  

I stated this earlier Wyndham did this intentionally in their design of the system, so they could steal inventory for decades, If you think of sleazy business people timeshare sales people are at the top.  Who is running the company a sleazy timeshare sales person from inception.  Lack of accounting only mattered when they finally said the total points in the system is X billion and we have X squared billion and Wyndham does not have control of the imaginary points.  A simpleton solution is force the excess points into the limited inventory at year end.  This accounts for 2016 total points, without Wyndham losing anything financially or having to account for the points. (salesperson solution not accountant solution).  The excess points in the system worked, because so many people do not use their points in a given year, not sure if Wyndham has breakage calculation, but must be close to 50% as that is the highest VIP discount. TUG members are the exception not the rule in using points, discounts, learning the system in essence we are the educated few of the user base. Estimated 30% of user base know how to use the system, based on my visits to the sales presentations, the other 70% create so much unused points Wyndham smiles.

Wyndham concern is a few owners have figured out how to get into their magic pool of points which is how they make their quarterly earnings estimate, the beat by a penny quarterly earnings estimate every corporation deals with.  This is real reason Wyndham does not want to account for the points.

JMHO


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## raygo123

Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory.  Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes".  If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages?  I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## am1

If they were going to enforce not renting then they should first speak to the sales staff and let them know that is not allowed.  Then follow it up with offers to cancel purchases and refund in full to anyone who purchased because they were told they could rent it from liscenced real estate brokers working for wyndham.


raygo123 said:


> Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory.  Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes".  If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages?  I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


force


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory.  Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes".  If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages?  I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I believe that the initial inquiry  Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned.  As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't

But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.

You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations?  No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not

Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount.  End that and they will end commercial renting


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## raygo123

ronparise said:


> I believe that the initial inquiry  Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned.  As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't
> 
> But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.
> 
> You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations?  No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not
> 
> Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount.  End that and they will end commercial renting


Yes, that is also covered in point 2.  It comes down to the fact that if Wyndham doesn't like it, they can change anything at anytime for any reason.  One may gain flexibility being part of the "club" but being part of the "club" but are subject to an all new set of rules, their rules.  

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## Richelle

ronparise said:


> I believe that the initial inquiry  Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned.  As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't
> 
> But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.
> 
> You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations?  No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not
> 
> Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount.  End that and they will end commercial renting



I think commercial renting actually helps Wyndham's bottom line. Sure the mega renters are competing with the inventory that Wyndham they advertise sites on hotels.com. They also have to pay to manage the server (of pay for a hosted one) that they use for their own internal rental reservation system. However, like Wyndham, mega renters are paying to advertise their inventory as well. If the mega renters are renting out inventory, that is less inventory that Wyndham has to pay to advertise. Also, the mega renters are basically handing Wyndham a potential lead on a silver platter. Wyndham didn't have to pay to advertise to that renter. They didn't have to do any work or pay any money to get that lead. The mega renters are doing all the leg work to get a potential sales lead to them. If that lead buys from Wyndham, do you think the mega renter receives a commission of that sale for doing all that leg work for them? That would be a big fat No.  Wyndham is well aware that people rent out their reservation. They are well aware that some people even make a business out of it. I think they've kept their mouth shut for so long, because it was benefiting them. Maybe that changed. Or maybe someone got a bug up their butt and decided they can do better and don't need the mega renters any more. I'm thinking the latter might be the case because the accounts have been frozen for so long. Because the mega renters cannot make new reservations, that's fewer leads coming from them. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they get better sales by doing their own legwork.  I am merely guessing because Wyndham has not given people enough info to do much more then that. 


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## nicemann

I have to agree with the "mega renters" helping Wyndham get new blood into their system.  I rented on Airbnb (before I found this site) and got pulled in by the parking lot pass people.  Offered me the endless vacation certificate.  Went back with that a month later to the timeshare and got pulled back in.  My wife was ready to sign up then.  I got lucky was on this forum before I went back.  Told them no thanks and went right to here to ask a few last questions and actually bought resale from someone on here (still waiting for it to close).  Now if it wasn't for this site my wife probably would have talked me into buying during that visit.

I am actually head back to that resort in a few hours.  Going to do a long weekend up there again.  Of course since I don't have my account setup yet I am renting from the same Airbnb guy I did last time.  (Reservation made before I found this site).  Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.


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## ronparise

nicemann said:


> I have to agree with the "mega renters" helping Wyndham get new blood into their system.  I rented on Airbnb (before I found this site) and got pulled in by the parking lot pass people.  Offered me the endless vacation certificate.  Went back with that a month later to the timeshare and got pulled back in.  My wife was ready to sign up then.  I got lucky was on this forum before I went back.  Told them no thanks and went right to here to ask a few last questions and actually bought resale from someone on here (still waiting for it to close).  Now if it wasn't for this site my wife probably would have talked me into buying during that visit.
> 
> I am actually head back to that resort in a few hours.  Going to do a long weekend up there again.  Of course since I don't have my account setup yet I am renting from the same Airbnb guy I did last time.  (Reservation made before I found this site).  Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.




Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything.  And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year

I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects.  They know too much. At least my customers do


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## nicemann

ronparise said:


> Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything.  And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year
> 
> I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects.  They know too much. At least my customers do



Okay good point on that but people will still fall for it.  A good high pressure person salesmen will be able to talk them into it.  They love to break out their ipad and try to justify how much you save over the next 20 years.  Of course they don't tell you how many points etc it will take to book the same type of room they have rented.  Kind of worked on me but at least I bought resell instead of directly from them.


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## Sandy VDH

nicemann said:


> Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.



Nope, they are rewarded by getting people into presentations regardless of their interest or real qualification. You have a pulse, go to a presentation. That is the parking pass people motto. 

Just say NO.


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## Richelle

ronparise said:


> Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything.  And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year
> 
> I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects.  They know too much. At least my customers do



Well, lets think about that for a moment.  How do non-Wyndham owners end up at one of the Wyndham resort hotels?

1. They are on a family vacation with a Wyndham Owner.  We often bring extended family with us on vacation.  These will likely be lousy prospects because A.) why buy one if John/Jane family member owns one? or B.) They are more in the know, then your average Joe, because the owner lets them in on the dirty little secrets.  We do that as well.

2. They were given a reservation by a family member or friend.  Same applies as above.  Lousy prospect most likely, unless they are family members the owner does not like.

3. The owner rented from the Wyndham rental system, hotels.com, eBay, etc.  This is a much better prospect unless they are warned ahead of time about the sales pitch they will be tricked into.  Do you warn your renters?  Maybe your renters are repeat customers and know what to expect and how to deal with it?

4. Those extra holidays deals where they give you cheap accommodations, dinner, visa/amex gift cards, attraction tickets, etc. in exchange for enduring a 2 hour presentation.  Also a good prospect if they are new to it.  That's why they have those extra holiday things.  The money they spend on the freebies is more then made up in the sale.  At least with mega renters, they don't have to give out freebies to get them there. 

The mega renters are paying to advertise the rentals and paying the maintenance fees to boot.  Free advertising and a little extra profit from the maintenance fees.  You know that money is not strictly for that resort.  Some goes to Wyndham's bottom line.  They make money of the mega renters.  Not every renter will buy, but a good salesman can con even some of the most knowledgeable people by skewing the numbers.  I wish I would have taken a picture of the ROI graph the guy drew me.  It took every cell in my body not to laugh at him.  I wish I did laugh at him.


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## Sandy VDH

Those few rentals I do a year, I always warn them.  Family and Friends, they know they come to me.  My brother finally went to a presentation to get all the discounts they offered in Sedona.   He had such good answers to overcome ever angle the sales guy came at him with, the sales guy asked him if he was a plant from corporate testing them.  My brother got a good laugh from that.  I taught you well big bro.


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## ronparise

There has been a discussion here about "silos"  what I call, The right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.. I think that might apply here. You guys may be right that the mega renters actually help wyndham's sales effort, but there are other divisions within the company that havent considered that or dont care.  I have been told, in no uncertain terms by folks in the hospitality side of the business, that we mega renters are not liked. And Im absolutely certain that they are looking for a way to limit the practice of cancel,  rebook and upgrade for discounts. Their thinking is exactly the same thinking as expressed by co-skier on these boards. It its used to gain an unfair advantage over other owners. And thats something that is expressly prohibited by the rules.   And you should know that the discounts are what makes profits possible.

.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything.  And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year
> 
> I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects.  They know too much. At least my customers do



That might be true of the actual "mega renter" prospects.  However, I think that is true of a small percentage of transactions from the impacted owners toiling under the frozen accounts.  Take for example, me.  Most of my guests are just that, "guests."  They are family and friends who want to use the great facilities that Wyndham has, especially in the US.  The majority of my points are exhausted in one trip a year where 70-80 people accompany me and my family to Bonnet Creek.  They LOVE the accommodations and some succumb to the parking pass come-on, especially when the reps say "It will help the Wyndham owner, he will get points for your taking the tour."  (Side note, I have not received one single point for anyone taking a tour despite dozens of my guests who have taken tours).   Other guests travel during the year and stay at Bonnet Creek, Royal Vista, NYC Midtown, Chicago River, Sedona, Glacier Canyon, Panama City and numerous other locations.  Some have even purchased, most of those being discovery packages.


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## Richelle

ronparise said:


> There has been a discussion here about "silos"  what I call, The right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.. I think that might apply here. You guys may be right that the mega renters actually help wyndham's sales effort, but there are other divisions within the company that havent considered that or dont care.  I have been told, in no uncertain terms by folks in the hospitality side of the business, that we mega renters are not liked. And Im absolutely certain that they are looking for a way to limit the practice of cancel,  rebook and upgrade for discounts. Their thinking is exactly the same thinking as expressed by co-skier on these boards. It its used to gain an unfair advantage over other owners. And thats something that is expressly prohibited by the rules.   And you should know that the discounts are what makes profits possible.
> 
> .



I do not disagree with you about the left hand and right hand.  If the hospitality side of the house doesn't like mega renters, then no one has clued them into why mega renters are actually helping Wyndham's bottom line and therefor, keeping them employed.  I do understand that the discounts make the points profitable.  I did that math a long time ago.  I could not pay my maintenance fees by renting.  I couldn't get enough reservations off what I have, to make enough profit to cover it.  It seems to me that platinum discount and upgrades is the only way to get make money from your points.  Silver or gold are not enough of a discount to make renting profitable enough to be worth the trouble.   I could be wrong though.  I'm not the skilled renter you are.  I'm not skilled at all in fact.


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## ronparise

It made  sense a long time before ovation, for Wyndham to take back inventory rather than let it go to the timeshare relief companies, and it would make sense now for wyndham to be buying on ebay.   Buying at a penny a point and selling at 20 cents would be pretty good business, but they dont do it.  

It really doesnt matter what makes sense or is logical.  all that counts is what is.  I stand by the advice Ive given


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## nicemann

Sandy VDH said:


> Nope, they are rewarded by getting people into presentations regardless of their interest or real qualification. You have a pulse, go to a presentation. That is the parking pass people motto.
> 
> Just say NO.



Just checked in. Front desk welcomed me back. Got to the parking pass counter and he asked if I was an owner, explained to him soon will be, just waiting on my resell to close. Right away asked me how many vehicles and wished me a good stay.

Wow didn't actually expect that to work. Didn't even ask if I wanted to attend.


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## Richelle

That is odd. Maybe he's new and they have not turned him evil yet. 


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> It made  sense a long time before ovation, for Wyndham to take back inventory rather than let it go to the timeshare relief companies, and it would make sense now for wyndham to be buying on ebay.   Buying at a penny a point and selling at 20 cents would be pretty good business, but they dont do it.



One of the other things that has always made sense to me that Wyndham has not exploited, is a way to "buy" VIP status for secondary market purchased points.  If they had a method in place where if an owner bought a certain amount of points at retail, say 300,000 points, then a matching amount of their secondary market purchased points could be classified as developer purchased.  This would be a way to generate some real buzz for sales people.  And that is simply an idea that Wyndham could gather from its owners if they were better at cultivating this "asset" instead of treating us like the first three letters.


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## bnoble

Why would they give VIP away for half price when they seem to have no problem selling it for full freight?


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## spackler

Have you seen WYN's stock price over the last 5-10 years?  Their dividend history?

If you're a shareholder you don't want them to change anything.


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## Richelle

If they gave discounts to VIP owners right off the bat rather then making them wait until 60 days out, they might get more people to VIP.  I know I would seriously consider it.  However,  they did that, they would more likely make that another tier above platinum VIP rather then add that benefit to existing plans.  What's above platinum?  Rhodium?


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## raygo123

Richelle said:


> If they gave discounts to VIP owners right off the bat rather then making them wait until 60 days out, they might get more people to VIP.  I know I would seriously consider it.  However,  they did that, they would more likely make that another tier above platinum VIP rather then add that benefit to existing plans.  What's above platinum?  Rhodium?


Plutonium 238

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## Richelle

spackler said:


> Have you seen WYN's stock price over the last 5-10 years?  Their dividend history?
> 
> If you're a shareholder you don't want them to change anything.



Wyndham Worldwide's stock is up 122% over the past 5 years.  I agree with you.


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## Richelle

raygo123 said:


> Plutonium 238
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



That sounds like a cooler name then Rhodium.

"Plutonium VIP"


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## wjappraise

Richelle said:


> That sounds like a cooler name then Rhodium.
> 
> "Plutonium VIP"



And Plutonium 238 can't be frozen.  So if I was Plutonium VIP, my account would never be frozen.  Score!!!


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> One of the other things that has always made sense to me that Wyndham has not exploited, is a way to "buy" VIP status for secondary market purchased points.  If they had a method in place where if an owner bought a certain amount of points at retail, say 300,000 points, then a matching amount of their secondary market purchased points could be classified as developer purchased.  This would be a way to generate some real buzz for sales people.  And that is simply an idea that Wyndham could gather from its owners if they were better at cultivating this "asset" instead of treating us like the first three letters.



They already extend VIP benefits to resale points.. The pitch is the same as what you suggest, its just that the numbers are a little bigger..  . Buy your way to Platinum (less than $200000) ;  add all the secondary market points you want.. and everything gets the 50% discount


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## raygo123

wjappraise said:


> And Plutonium 238 can't be frozen.  So if I was Plutonium VIP, my account would never be frozen.  Score!!!


But just like wyndham, p238 has a half life.  So over time you will loose benifits

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## Roger830

raygo123 said:


> But just like wyndham, p238 has a half life.  So over time you will loose benifits


Raygo, I'm impressed. You previously didn't reveal that you were this cleaver.


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## raygo123

Roger830 said:


> Raygo, I'm impressed. You previously didn't reveal that you were this cleaver.


Ah um I am?

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## wjappraise

raygo123 said:


> But just like wyndham, p238 has a half life.  So over time you will loose benifits



Well played, sir.


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## Richelle

raygo123 said:


> But just like wyndham, p238 has a half life.  So over time you will loose benifits
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I think this in my most favorite comment of the whole thread.  Nicely done.


----------



## chapjim

ronparise said:


> There has been a discussion here about "silos"  what I call, The right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.. I think that might apply here. You guys may be right that the mega renters actually help wyndham's sales effort, but there are other divisions within the company that havent considered that or dont care.  I have been told, in no uncertain terms by folks in the hospitality side of the business, that we mega renters are not liked. And Im absolutely certain that they are looking for a way to limit the practice of cancel,  rebook and upgrade for discounts. Their thinking is exactly the same thinking as expressed by co-skier on these boards. It its used to gain an unfair advantage over other owners. And thats something that is expressly prohibited by the rules.   And you should know that the discounts are what makes profits possible.
> 
> .


Ron,

I don't agree with the "unfair advantage" part if by "unfair" you mean non-VIPs don't have equal access or something like that.  People who didn't spend the money shouldn't expect to be treated the same as people who did.  You know that better than most anyone here.  

VIP status provides the owner an advantage but the advantage isn't unfair because it is paid for. 

Come to think of it, I am highly skeptical of any argument that depends on the word "unfair" but that's another matter.


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## Richelle

chapjim said:


> Ron,
> 
> I don't agree with the "unfair advantage" part if by "unfair" you mean non-VIPs don't have equal access or something like that.  People who didn't spend the money shouldn't expect to be treated the same as people who did.  You know that better than most anyone here.
> 
> VIP status provides the owner an advantage but the advantage isn't unfair because it is paid for.
> 
> Come to think of it, I am highly skeptical of any argument that depends on the word "unfair" but that's another matter.



Some non-VIP members feel it is unfair that VIPs get better advantages because of their discounts and the cancel and re-book process.  Personally, if I spent six figures to become VIP, you better believe I would use every single benefit I paid for, and try to make the most of everyone of them just like they have.  I agree with you, that they cannot expect something they didn't pay for.  The VIP benefits are what VIPs paid for.


----------



## am1

Richelle said:


> Some non-VIP members feel it is unfair that VIPs get better advantages because of their discounts and the cancel and re-book process.  Personally, if I spent six figures to become VIP, you better believe I would use every single benefit I paid for, and try to make the most of everyone of them just like they have.  I agree with you, that they cannot expect something they didn't pay for.  The VIP benefits are what VIPs paid for.



Exactly.  That is why I bought from Wyndham.  They sold me on the concept of VIP discounts and upgrades to rent.  I doubt anyone at Wyndham would deny that has happened thousands of times.


----------



## ronparise

chapjim said:


> Ron,
> 
> I don't agree with the "unfair advantage" part if by "unfair" you mean non-VIPs don't have equal access or something like that.  People who didn't spend the money shouldn't expect to be treated the same as people who did.  You know that better than most anyone here.
> 
> VIP status provides the owner an advantage but the advantage isn't unfair because it is paid for.
> 
> Come to think of it, I am highly skeptical of any argument that depends on the word "unfair" but that's another matter.



Of course you are right.. but you are not disagreeing with me.  
Manipulation  of the program rules to gain an "Unfair Advantage"  is something prohibited by the disclosures found on page 394 of the directory. 
All Im saying is that I believe that Wyndham sees cancel/rebook and upgrade as Manipulation  of the program rules to gain an "Unfair Advantage" not as a benefit paid for by us VIPs


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> Of course you are right.. but you are not disagreeing with me.
> Manipulation  of the program rules to gain an "Unfair Advantage"  is something prohibited by the disclosures found on page 394 of the directory.
> All Im saying is that I believe that Wyndham sees cancel/rebook and upgrade as Manipulation  of the program rules to gain an "Unfair Advantage" not as a benefit paid for by us VIPs



They should start by telling the sales people that that cancel/rebook is an unfair advantage.  Then as I have said before offer full refunds to anyone who purchased a wyndham timeshare because they were sold on cancel/rebook.


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## Richelle

am1 said:


> They should start by telling the sales people that that cancel/rebook is an unfair advantage.  Then as I have said before offer full refunds to anyone who purchased a wyndham timeshare because they were sold on cancel/rebook.



I don't know of a company that would do that, much less Wyndham.  More likely they will play dumb and say they never told their sales people to use that sales pitch. However, I doubt they didn't know it was happening, and I doubt they told them to stop. There might be a case if you could prove both.   Are they still using the cancel rebook as a sales pitch?  Anyone know?


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----------



## am1

Richelle said:


> I don't know of a company that would do that, much less Wyndham.  More likely they will play dumb and say they never told their sales people to use that sales pitch. However, I doubt they didn't know it was happening, and I doubt they told them to stop. There might be a case if you could prove both.   Are they still using the cancel rebook as a sales pitch?  Anyone know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They are still using cancel/rebook as a sales pitch as of a few weeks ago.    Wyndham will do what they want but the truth and what can easily be proved is what really matters.


----------



## Bigrob

The actual full text of the disclosure on page 394 is quite interesting. I am including it here, and folks can judge for themselves whether this language from the program directory protects Wyndham from damages sought by owners who have had their use rights restricted:

Wyndham Vacation Resorts reserves the right at its sole and reasonable discretion to restrict CLUB WYNDHAM Plus services/access to Members who engage in behaviors that negatively impact the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program, its members and resort guests, its resort properties and/or Wyndham employees. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, the use of verbally threatening language, profanity, inflammatory statements, unrestrained emotional outbursts, manipulation of the program rules and/or Wyndham employees to gain an unfair advantage, and acts of physical harm or malice toward other Members and the resort guests, resort property and/or Wyndham employees. Such restrictions may include, but are not limited to, refusal of services/access to contact center, front desk, web, and any telephonic communications with Wyndham employees. Wyndham Vacation Resorts reserves the right to enforce such restriction for periods of duration determined in its sole and reasonable discretion.

I have no doubt these words were crafted with considerable deliberation by a legal staff extremely well-versed in minimizing exposure to civil liabilities and litigation.


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## ronparise

Discounts on available inventory within 60 days of check in is the benefit we bought.  Canceling a reservation made months before to create that available inventory is a manipulation.. . whether it gains an advantage or an unfair advantage is an open question in my mind, but I dont think wyndham has any questions at all


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## bnoble

Bigrob said:


> folks can judge for themselves whether this language from the program directory protects Wyndham from damages sought by owners who have had their use rights restricted



I had exactly the same thought when I read it.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> Discounts on available inventory within 60 days of check in is the benefit we bought.  Canceling a reservation made months before to create that available inventory is a manipulation.. . whether it gains an advantage or an unfair advantage is an open question in my mind, but I dont think wyndham has any questions at all



Ron - I concur that is the case, however, it is NOT what was sold, at least to me.  It was sold as fact that I would have the right to cancel and rebook, and even the salesman and his supervisor confirmed that I could call Wyndham and have the VCs do it for me.  I had them call a VC on the spot prior to purchase, and guess what, it was validated.  So, it is NOT a manipulation of the program if at least these two "silos" clearly have been advocating it.  It has become "de facto."  And that is where Wyndham has a legal problem if they try to allege that you or me or others have violated the "terms".


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Ron - I concur that is the case, however, it is NOT what was sold, at least to me.  It was sold as fact that I would have the right to cancel and rebook, and even the salesman and his supervisor confirmed that I could call Wyndham and have the VCs do it for me.  I had them call a VC on the spot prior to purchase, and guess what, it was validated.  So, it is NOT a manipulation of the program if at least these two "silos" clearly have been advocating it.  It has become "de facto."  And that is where Wyndham has a legal problem if they try to allege that you or me or others have violated the "terms".



Wyndham cannot have it both ways.  They decided it was allowed and have made 10's of millions off of it.


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## CO skier

It is difficult to believe that Ron Parise and I are of the same mind on this.  It must be Christmas, or something.

While the facts are not the same as the Spearman case, they do rhyme as there is mention of "cancel/rebook loophole", "manipulation" and "Megarenters" in general.  It is worth a read before anyone signs a retainer check.

http://cases.justia.com/federal/dis.../7:2011cv03960/139908/148/0.pdf?ts=1415791351

The short story is do not rely on what a timeshare salesperson assures you is true.  It did not go well for Megarenter plaintiffs on the fraud charge.

A few highlights:

*


I. Facts
*
Defendants Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. and Wyndham Vacation Ownership (collectively "Wyndham") are one of the largest timeshare companies in the world. Wyndham develops and sells vacation  ownership interests, which are reflected by an allocation of "points" proportionate to each owner’s interest. These points can be used to make reservations at various resorts.

Plaintiffs William M. Spearman ("Mr. Spearman") and Young-Rang Spearman ("Mrs. Spearman"), together with a trust created by the Spearmans known as the Spearman Family Trust ("Spearman Trust"), own approximately 15,600,000 Wyndham points. They are among the largest Wyndham point holders in the world and are Platinum VIPs, the highest level of a three-tiered VIP benefit program.

Plaintiffs purchased some of their points directly from Wyndham, but accumulated most of their points through purchases from third-party owners.

Wyndham was aware that the Plaintiffs were using their points to operate a for profit rental business, and the Plaintiffs’ situation was discussed among several upper level Wyndham employees. However, when making purchases from Wyndham, Plaintiffs signed documents stating that the purchases were made "for our own personal vacation use and enjoyment," (Doc. 77-36 at 4; Doc. 77-37 at 7; Doc. 77-38 at 5; Doc. 77-39 at 4,) and that Wyndham did not guarantee to assist in the rental of Plaintiffs’ points. (Doc. 77-36 at 4; Doc. 77-37 at 7; Doc. 77-38 at 5; Doc. 77-39 at 4.)

The contract documents also provided that any representations made outside of a delineated list of documents could not be relied on and were not part of the purchase agreement. (Doc. 77-36 at 4; Doc. 77-37 at 7; Doc. 77-38 at 5; Doc. 77-39 at 4.)

As early as 2005,Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as "Megarenters,"4 to run large rental businessesusing Wyndham points.AWyndham internal presentation from 2005 noted that the company supported owners running rental businesses at the time, but recommended limiting transactions and tightening rules because of the negative effects Megarenters were having on Wyndham’s business.

A March 2006 presentation recommended altering many of the VIP Program benefits, such as limiting the number of free guest confirmations available to VIPs, changing the VIP cancellation policy, and limiting the ability of VIPs to upgrade their rooms, in order to deal with the problems created by Megarenters*.*

Sometime in 2010,Wyndham began work on a new computer software system known as "Voyager." The program, which has not yet been implemented, is apparently intended to more strictly enforce the existing rules and close what Wyndham views as loopholes, such as the ability to cancel and then immediately rebook a reservation. (Doc. 123-53, at 4-5.) Wyndham added a provision to the 2011-2012 member directory which stated that "The Program is for a Member’s own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes." (Doc. 123-75 at 3.)

Additionally, an enforcement provision was added, stating that "manipulation of the program rules and/or Wyndham employees to gain an unfair advantage" could result in refusal of services or access to Wyndham services and employees for a duration of time determined at Wyndham’s sole discretion. (_Id. _at 4.)

Mr. Spearman was not one to suffer in silence what he saw as negative changes. Throughout the period when Wyndham was making these changes to the VIP program benefits, he regularly complained and asserted his distrust of Wyndham through emails with Wyndham employees and online message board postings.


*A. Fraud
*
The Plaintiffs have failed to provide any proof of the falsity of the representations when they were made or a present intent to deceive at that time, and therefore have failed to make out a prima facie case of fraud. In fact, the Plaintiffs continue to successfully rent out points using Wyndham’s systems. (Doc. 77-1 at 37.)

The Plaintiffs have produced less evidence of intent to deceive than the unsuccessful plaintiffs in _McCutchen _and _D.H. Homes Dept. Store_,who were at least able to show that the statements concerning future events proved to be ultimately untrue. The Plaintiffs have failed to make out a prima facie case of fraud, and therefore summary judgment is due to be granted concerning this claim.

*IV. Conclusion
*
For the foregoing reasons, Wyndham’s motion for summary judgment (Doc. 78) is due to be DENIED as to Count I, the claim for breach of contract, Count VIII, seeking declaratory judgment, and Count IX seeking injunctive relief. The motion is due to be GRANTED as to all other counts.


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Ron - I concur that is the case, however, it is NOT what was sold, at least to me.  It was sold as fact that I would have the right to cancel and rebook, and even the salesman and his supervisor confirmed that I could call Wyndham and have the VCs do it for me.  I had them call a VC on the spot prior to purchase, and guess what, it was validated.  So, it is NOT a manipulation of the program if at least these two "silos" clearly have been advocating it.  It has become "de facto."  And that is where Wyndham has a legal problem if they try to allege that you or me or others have violated the "terms".




If the wyndham attorneys agree with you, and I suspect they do, there wont be some new rule to prohibit the practice of cancelling reservations and immediately rebooking them. In fact they cant prohibit the practice,  After all cancel/rebook/upgrade is nothing but three simple and basic features of the club   Cancelling reservations will continue to be allowed, as will booing reservations as will upgrading. What Im suggesting is that something will be done to remove the financial incentive to do all three within a few seconds    

Perhaps a waiting list will be introduced, or maybe cancellations will come back after a random amount of time.  Or maybe they wont go after commercial renting by going after the practice of cancel and rebook... Maybe they will simply restrict VIP benefits to reservations made with VIP eligible points.. so do all the cancel/rebook you want but you will only get the discount with points purchased directly from wyndham

What I am sure of is that they are going to go after commercial renting (whatever that is) one way or another.


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## ronparise

we have never disagreed about the facts... or that cancel and rebooking for discounts is a manipulation of the system.  I always argued that it didnt hurt anyone and I still feel that way.  What Im saying now is that Wyndham doesnt agree with me, and they are, I think going to do something about it


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## Richelle

Whatever they decide to do, they should just get on with it. Unless they have people adding and subtracting with their fingers, this has been going on for way to long. 


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## ronparise

Richelle said:


> Whatever they decide to do, they should just get on with it. Unless they have people adding and subtracting with their fingers, this has been going on for way to long.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There's more to it than adding and subtracting.   There's the question of what to do with the numbers


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## Richelle

I have a few ideas on what they can do with their numbers. 


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## am1

No matter what numbers they have I have other numbers that need to be accounted for.  Loss of use is fairly easy, damages to my reputation and stress is a little harder.


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## bnoble

am1 said:


> I have other numbers that need to be accounted for.


Good luck with that. Wyndham is not going to roll over on this, and will almost certainly resort to "my pockets are deeper than yours" in the courts.


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## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> Good luck with that. Wyndham is not going to roll over on this, and will almost certainly resort to "my pockets are deeper than yours" in the courts.



I don't know.  The whole being "out of trust" spectre hanging over Wyndham might be enough to encourage them to negotiate with unhappy owners as opposed to letting it hit the courts.  


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> I don't know.  The whole being "out of trust" spectre hanging over Wyndham might be enough to encourage them to negotiate with unhappy owners as opposed to letting it hit the courts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I like to think that I have enough damages with proof/evidence from not just the locking of my accounts that I would win. I am waiting to see how it plays out. 

If needed I will expose Wyndham but hopefully it does not come to that.


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## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> I don't know.  The whole being "out of trust" spectre hanging over Wyndham might be enough to encourage them to negotiate with unhappy owners as opposed to letting it hit the courts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It is possible. But if you follow that logic, the whistleblower lawsuit would have never made it to court.


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## Don40

ronparise said:


> we have never disagreed about the facts... or that cancel and rebooking for discounts is a manipulation of the system.  I always argued that it didnt hurt anyone and I still feel that way.  What Im saying now is that Wyndham doesnt agree with me, and they are, I think going to do something about it



The cancel rebook, has been around for a very long time.  Wyndham had it that when you canceled a reservation it would reappear the next day in the system at opening time.  The issue they had were "megarenters" of that time would provide gifts to the VC and they would give those renters the pick of what was available in the am transactions.  Thus the wording of manipulating a Wyndham employee was added. Wyndham has to allow cancellations of reservations or the system fails. The VIP benefits can change with the upgrades, but this is the big hook to get new, and current owners to buy. This is their conundrum wrapped in an enigma, how many upgrades to allow in a timeframe. Voyager, or any new system can and will be manipulated to benefit the new "megarenter", as Wyndham is the chief megarenter.  

What Wyndham has to fear is all the new hotels, being built with mini kitchens and timeshare like amenities without the buy in and yearly maintenance cost associated with owning.  Marriott, Hilton  are developing their products to capture this market.  It cost them virtually nothing to put a sink, fridge, dishes, dishwasher, mini stove in a room.  Where you can call today and book for tomorrow, anywhere in the US you want With free breakfast to boot, and someone cleans your room.


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## vacationhopeful

Don40 said:


> .... <snip>
> What Wyndham has to fear is all the new hotels, being built with mini kitchens and timeshare like amenities without the buy in and yearly maintenance cost associated with owning.  Marriott, Hilton  are developing their products to capture this market.  It cost them virtually nothing to put a sink, fridge, dishes, dishwasher, mini stove in a room.  Where you can call today and book for tomorrow, anywhere in the US you want With free breakfast to boot, and someone cleans your room.



Don40 ... this is an angle which will affect Wyndham's timeshare business model with the big bubble of travellers over 50 years old. Retirees NOW are unlikely to have PENSION plans ... relying on their savings.

Plus the older plan of downsizing the large family home to fund retirement has also been eliminated with the stagnate housing prices/market for the past 10+ years. My 75 +/- yo old cousin just last month (November) took a job for 20 hours of week as a "Walmart Greeter" .. his wife died and her Social Security check stopped in October. I expect their house will go up for sale in Feb/Mar (they had no children).

TUG readers might be more informed about using timeshares ... but other factors are reshaping general timeshare usage and ownership. I looked at owning timeshares as a way to spend retirement winter months in the Ft Lauderdale/Miami area ... not wanting to SPEND the big dollars (and empty 2nd home issues) my parents had with owning 2nd homes in South Florida (first a condo; then, a single family rancher).

But Wyndham newer rule changes .. overlapping reservations even by a single night .. is BIG crinkle in implementing that 'retirement housing' plan. And making the Wyndham product less likely to fit my usage plan.

And no .... using the "cancel & rebook" to save points/costs was not part of my original plan. But became MORE of the plan as Wyndham rules/costs changed. 

Now, I will definitely be looking at those "extended" stay places ... as Wyndham really has "price and rule" changed my vacation staying plans in Pompano. And timeshares have no "FREE Breakfasts" buffets. I can spend time searching Expedia or other websites looking for the better prices ... or start packing a small microwave in my car (most motels have refrigerators).

But Wyndham really profits from CASH RENTING our resorts on internet websites ... I will not exclude those rental options along with looking at the LMR thread here on TUG. And AirBnB.

Will invest in a better navigator system for the car.


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## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> It is possible. But if you follow that logic, the whistleblower lawsuit would have never made it to court.



The difference is that being "out of trust" violates state(s) law and will incur regulatory sanctions that make court judgments look like peanuts.  


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## Roger830

wjappraise said:


> The difference is that being "out of trust" violates state(s) law and will incur regulatory sanctions



What does "out of trust" mean?

If it means that there are more points than weeks for reservations, this happens by week #2.

Wyndham by their own rules can take inventory for their own use at 60 days. This could then be used for vip discounts.

Points expire at the end of the use year, no balanncing required.


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## am1

Roger830 said:


> Points expire at the end of the use year, no balanncing required.



Not when Wyndhams system pushed them forward every year.  Wyndham allowed their system to do that for years.  Now Wyndham wonders why some owners have so many points in their accounts.  Right before Wyndham stopped allowing owners to transfer points I purchased tens of million from owners desperately trying to un load them so they could afford to pay their loan and maintenance fees to Wyndham.


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## wjappraise

Roger830 said:


> What does "out of trust" mean?


 
It means more points exist than cumulative nights for each resort.  With Wyndhams IT debacle that was returning more points with some cancellations, coupled with points rolling forward for years, likely has resulted in that dire situation. If the state regulators get wind of it, and want to punish Wyndham after years of complaints, this would be their opportunity to come down hard on them.  



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## Richelle

wjappraise said:


> It means more points exist than cumulative nights for each resort.  With Wyndhams IT debacle that was returning more points with some cancellations, coupled with points rolling forward for years, likely has resulted in that dire situation. If the state regulators get wind of it, and want to punish Wyndham after years of complaints, this would be their opportunity to come down hard on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If that's the case, I guess the suspensions was a poor idea on Wyndham's part since it highlighted the issue publicly. 


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## SueDonJ

Marriott, DVC and most other timeshare companies that offer points options allow some form of banking forward and borrowing back from original Use Years (which is what I think you all mean by "pooling" Wyndham points) as well as, at least in Marriott's case, the ability to cancel existing reservations and re-book them closer to check-in at a discounted points rate with reimbursement of the excess.  I find it hard to believe that so many of the big players would offer it if state/federal regulations forbid it.  On the other hand, guaranteeing that inventory will always be available when using banked/borrowed points would definitely get them in hot water because availability in a floating system can never be guaranteed.  Instead what they guarantee is that IF inventory is available, certain owners can take advantage of effectively changing the Use Years of the annual allotments of Points and/or discounted Points rates in certain situations.

Based on everything in this thread I think that Wyndham is doing two things - first fully investigating the limitations of their IT systems which seem to be an unruly mess and second, fully investigating the extent of owner rental activity.  I'd be extremely worried if I were involved in owner rentals to the extent that a few of you appear to be.  Consider that when DVC felt that their bottom line was impacted so severely that their business suffered for it, all it took for them to curtail a large amount of mega-renting was establishing a limit on the annual number of owner reservations that could have guest names attached. (Marriott's points system is just six years young but I expect we'll eventually see the day when a similar limit is imposed on us.)

Going all the way back to the beginning of this debacle, I really hope that you all have retained qualified attorneys and are allowing them to work for you.  Regardless of whether Wyndham is following established rules and regulations, which I suspect they are, this mess has gone on for an obscenely long time. Based on only that I'd have a lawyer putting up a damned good fight on my behalf for reimbursement of lost usage/income.


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## wjappraise

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott, DVC and most other timeshare companies that offer points options allow some form of banking forward and borrowing back from original Use Years (which is what I think you all mean by "pooling" Wyndham points) as well as, at least in Marriott's case, the ability to cancel existing reservations and re-book them closer to check-in at a discounted points rate with reimbursement of the excess.



SueDon, I believe you have a good handle on the matter with a few exceptions. 

1) Beyond the simple Credit pooling, a method was in place within Wyndham's point structure that would allow owners with multiple use years (1/1, 4/1, 7/1, 10/1 were my use years until a few weeks ago, now they are all 1/1), could effectively "roll points forward" by making a reservation with points that would expire on 3/31, and cancel the reservation the next day.  Once the following day showed the points balance (more on Wyndham being a day behind comes later) those points would be returned to the account with a new expiration date of 6/30, 9/30, or perhaps 12/31.  There really was no rhyme nor reason to it, and it did not work every time, but it did often enough for Wyndham sales to get wind of it and use this to encourage existing owners to buy contracts from them with an alternate use year than the existing contracts in the owner's account.

2) Wyndham's IT department, unlike Marriot, DVC, and others, clearly has HUGE problems.  Speaking only from my circumstance, it is clear that some reservations when I would cancel them, would return many more points than the actual reservation "cost."  Complicating it is the fact that Wyndham takes an entire day to update your current point status, so an owner can only see yesterday's snapshot point total.  Therefore, if an owner is cancelling numerous reservations and making more on a particular day, there would be no way for him or her to know the glitch had impacted his or her point total until the next day, and that assumes that the owner would be looking for it.  For years, I simply trusted Wyndham's accounting for the points, like I do my bank account.  Years ago I would reconcile my bank account, now I simply enter my data into Quicken and go about my business.  It is the same for many of us impacted owners with regard to our point balances.  Once it became clear to me I had too many points, I let Wyndham know this.  This was on or about January 2, 2106.  I informed the rep while I was complaining about Credit Pool points being screwed up.  She took a couple of days, but called me back and said my points were just fine (I know they were not), but she was focused on my complaint of Credit Pool issues and refused to hear anything I had to say.  At that point, I had millions more points than I should have had.  I also let a Wyndham attorney, David Oigarden, know that the points debacle was a much bigger problem than what he was grinding me about (making more reservations than the ten per night limit).  This was sometime in March of 2016.  He told me he would pass along my concerns to Owner Care (I never heard a word).  I let millions of points expire on June 30, 2016.  Then my account was suspended in August 23, 2106.  More points expired September 30, 2016.  And I have millions more that will expire December 31, 2016.  I have made the choice to let those points expire because they are simply not my points (with the exception of a few points that are mine and I am using).  However, if I wanted to, I certainly could have made hundreds of reservations and sold them on Ebay, Redweek, or TUG.  Reservations sold for pennies on the dollar for "free points" would still make me a profit.  I believe that is what other impacted owners have done, perhaps to recoup some money from the losses they have incurred, or perhaps to spite Wyndham.  Either way, I think that explains the inordinate number of last minute reservations at RIDICULOUS low prices that are currently found on TUG bargain basement site. 

3) Some owners discovered a way that they could purchase larger contracts, and then place the points in the Credit Pool.  Then they could turn around and sell those contracts back to Wyndham via an associated broker.  Wyndham was buying contracts that had no points for two or three years.  However, it appears they populated these contracts with points once they sold them via their sales force.  This has resulted in perhaps 100s of millions of points created where there should be none.

So, I do not think it is a matter where comparing Wyndham to other TS companies will truly yield an apples-to-apples comparison.  I also believe that the method employed by Wyndham to freeze accounts for so long and to not respond to its owners has turned this into a combative relationship that could have easily been avoided.  That is where the arrogance coupled with the incompetence is so very frustrating for those of us impacted owners.


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> SueDon, I believe you have a good handle on the matter with a few exceptions.
> 
> 1) Beyond the simple Credit pooling, a method was in place within Wyndham's point structure that would allow owners with multiple use years (1/1, 4/1, 7/1, 10/1 were my use years until a few weeks ago, now they are all 1/1), could effectively "roll points forward" by making a reservation with points that would expire on 3/31, and cancel the reservation the next day.  Once the following day showed the points balance (more on Wyndham being a day behind comes later) those points would be returned to the account with a new expiration date of 6/30, 9/30, or perhaps 12/31.  There really was no rhyme nor reason to it, and it did not work every time, but it did often enough for Wyndham sales to get wind of it and use this to encourage existing owners to buy contracts from them with an alternate use year than the existing contracts in the owner's account.
> 
> 2) Wyndham's IT department, unlike Marriot, DVC, and others, clearly has HUGE problems.  Speaking only from my circumstance, it is clear that some reservations when I would cancel them, would return many more points than the actual reservation "cost."  Complicating it is the fact that Wyndham takes an entire day to update your current point status, so an owner can only see yesterday's snapshot point total.  Therefore, if an owner is cancelling numerous reservations and making more on a particular day, there would be no way for him or her to know the glitch had impacted his or her point total until the next day, and that assumes that the owner would be looking for it.  For years, I simply trusted Wyndham's accounting for the points, like I do my bank account.  Years ago I would reconcile my bank account, now I simply enter my data into Quicken and go about my business.  It is the same for many of us impacted owners with regard to our point balances.  Once it became clear to me I had too many points, I let Wyndham know this.  This was on or about January 2, 2106.  I informed the rep while I was complaining about Credit Pool points being screwed up.  She took a couple of days, but called me back and said my points were just fine (I know they were not), but she was focused on my complaint of Credit Pool issues and refused to hear anything I had to say.  At that point, I had millions more points than I should have had.  I also let a Wyndham attorney, David Oigarden, know that the points debacle was a much bigger problem than what he was grinding me about (making more reservations than the ten per night limit).  This was sometime in March of 2016.  He told me he would pass along my concerns to Owner Care (I never heard a word).  I let millions of points expire on June 30, 2016.  Then my account was suspended in August 23, 2106.  More points expired September 30, 2016.  And I have millions more that will expire December 31, 2016.  I have made the choice to let those points expire because they are simply not my points (with the exception of a few points that are mine and I am using).  However, if I wanted to, I certainly could have made hundreds of reservations and sold them on Ebay, Redweek, or TUG.  Reservations sold for pennies on the dollar for "free points" would still make me a profit.  I believe that is what other impacted owners have done, perhaps to recoup some money from the losses they have incurred, or perhaps to spite Wyndham.  Either way, I think that explains the inordinate number of last minute reservations at RIDICULOUS low prices that are currently found on TUG bargain basement site.
> 
> 3) Some owners discovered a way that they could purchase larger contracts, and then place the points in the Credit Pool.  Then they could turn around and sell those contracts back to Wyndham via an associated broker.  Wyndham was buying contracts that had no points for two or three years.  However, it appears they populated these contracts with points once they sold them via their sales force.  This has resulted in perhaps 100s of millions of points created where there should be none.
> 
> So, I do not think it is a matter where comparing Wyndham to other TS companies will truly yield an apples-to-apples comparison.  I also believe that the method employed by Wyndham to freeze accounts for so long and to not respond to its owners has turned this into a combative relationship that could have easily been avoided.  That is where the arrogance coupled with the incompetence is so very frustrating for those of us impacted owners.



Right locking our accounts with no notice and no way to add guest names or cancel reservations for at least a few weeks makes wyndham look bad no matter their intent.


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## Roger830

There is doubt that Wyndham handled this poorly, perhaps they didn't  realize scope of the problem.

What seems ironic is that when reading posts on this board over the past year, members were diligent about calling Wyndham when canceled points went to the wrong use year, except when the points moved into a forward use year.


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## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> The difference is that being "out of trust" violates state(s) law and will incur regulatory sanctions that make court judgments look like peanuts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I would dovetail into SueJonD's observation, as it seems you are conflating consumption of points with the fiduciary responsibilities of the trustee when you use the term "out of trust". In terms of points, The Club can only be "out of trust" if they assign more points to members then the underlying properties have been assigned. As noted in Section 4.02 of the Trust agreement. It is very speculative to assume that condition has occurred given the size of the trust.

For we already have numerous examples where reservation activity consumes less points from a members accounts than a unit night is assigned in the Trust. For instance - VIP discounts, unit size upgrades, and Wyndham's ability take out inventory while only paying occupancy related expenses. I don't see how this current snafu is any different.  All of which is members consuming more points than they have been assigned. Just like this situation.


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## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> I would dovetail into SueDJon's observation, as it seems you are conflating consumption of points with the fiduciary responsibilities of the trustee when you use the term "out of trust". In terms of points, The Club can only be "out of trust" if they assign more points to members then the underlying properties have been assigned. As noted in Section 4.02 of the Trust agreement. It is very speculative to assume that condition has occurred given the size of the trust.
> 
> For we already have numerous examples where reservation activity consumes less points from a members accounts than a unit night is assigned in the Trust. For instance - VIP discounts, unit size upgrades, and Wyndham's ability take out inventory while only paying occupancy related expenses. I don't see how this current snafu is any different.  All of which is members consuming points than they have been assigned. Just like this situation.



You could be right, although I do not know the meaning of "conflating."  However, all of those designed transactions that "consume less points" like upgrades and discounts are taken into accounting when establishing the amount of points needed, versus those that will actually be used.  Clearly, less than 100% of points allocated in any given year are actually used (consumed).  Like a gift card, the issuer knows that 17% of them will never be cashed.  Similarly, Wyndham counts on Mom and Pop to miss out using their timeshare week every couple of years.  So, Wyndham designs a program that enhances the value of certain points if an owner is willing to pay for VIP status.  That would be a relatively easy calculation based upon years of historical data.  However, the three points I noted in an earlier post are NOT designed by Wyndham, and they appear to have been a total surprise to the "silo" at play.  One of those points should not have been a surprise - the rolling forward of points based upon alternate use years.  But the other two likely resulted in BILLIONS of points being allocated to accounts that did not belong.  Remember, the impacted owners are only the ones that Wyndham deemed to have more points available for use than they should have.  Likely there were THOUSANDS of owners who had one or two transactions return overage points, and they simply spent those points on an extra vacation.  They never were discovered, but their use has impacted the trust.  And certainly BILLIONS of points would result in some resorts being out of trust.  It is simply a matter of mathematics.  

Once again, this is simply my observation based upon my circumstances and the careful reading of the other posters.  Of course, I could be entirely wrong.  But if I am not, it explains so much, doesn't it?  Like why Wyndham has not, as Ron stated, "squished him like a bug."  Or why the suspensions went on long enough to impact the use of points for the heavy holiday season.  Or why there is no solution being offered to the impacted owners despite the fifth month anniversary of this debacle coming near.  

When this all started it seemed many owners were in fear of what Wyndham would do.  Could it now be that Wyndham is in fear of what the impacted owners, coupled with the state regulatory agencies could do?  

Please know, Eric, I am not trying to start a rally against Wyndham.  I am simply trying to post my experience herein so that others may help me to figure out the puzzle as to why this has taken so long, and why no communication has been forthcoming as we near day 150 of the accounts hostage crisis.  Cue Ted Koppel.


----------



## raygo123

ecwinch said:


> I would dovetail into SueDJon's observation, as it seems you are conflating consumption of points with the fiduciary responsibilities of the trustee when you use the term "out of trust". In terms of points, The Club can only be "out of trust" if they assign more points to members then the underlying properties have been assigned. As noted in Section 4.02 of the Trust agreement. It is very speculative to assume that condition has occurred given the size of the trust.
> 
> For we already have numerous examples where reservation activity consumes less points from a members accounts than a unit night is assigned in the Trust. For instance - VIP discounts, unit size upgrades, and Wyndham's ability take out inventory while only paying occupancy related expenses. I don't see how this current snafu is any different.  All of which is members consuming points than they have been assigned. Just like this situation.


Interesting.  Could the size of the trust, with the advent of Ovations, and the theory that those give backs go directly to the CWA trust be the reason for the spike in next years increase in maintainence fees?  As now the pool of points is growing faster than sales?
And hence those unsold points must now be spread over existing owners? Or does wyndham pay the fees on unsold points?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> You could be right, although I do not know the meaning of "conflating."  However, all of those designed transactions that "consume less points" like upgrades and discounts are taken into accounting when establishing the amount of points needed, versus those that will actually be used.  Clearly, less than 100% of points allocated in any given year are actually used (consumed).  Like a gift card, the issuer knows that 17% of them will never be cashed.  Similarly, Wyndham counts on Mom and Pop to miss out using their timeshare week every couple of years.  So, Wyndham designs a program that enhances the value of certain points if an owner is willing to pay for VIP status.  That would be a relatively easy calculation based upon years of historical data.  However, the three points I noted in an earlier post are NOT designed by Wyndham, and they appear to have been a total surprise to the "silo" at play.  One of those points should not have been a surprise - the rolling forward of points based upon alternate use years.  But the other two likely resulted in BILLIONS of points being allocated to accounts that did not belong.  Remember, the impacted owners are only the ones that Wyndham deemed to have more points available for use than they should have.  Likely there were THOUSANDS of owners who had one or two transactions return overage points, and they simply spent those points on an extra vacation.  They never were discovered, but their use has impacted the trust.  And certainly BILLIONS of points would result in some resorts being out of trust.  It is simply a matter of mathematics.
> 
> Once again, this is simply my observation based upon my circumstances and the careful reading of the other posters.  Of course, I could be entirely wrong.  But if I am not, it explains so much, doesn't it?  Like why Wyndham has not, as Ron stated, "squished him like a bug."  Or why the suspensions went on long enough to impact the use of points for the heavy holiday season.  Or why there is no solution being offered to the impacted owners despite the fifth month anniversary of this debacle coming near.
> 
> When this all started it seemed many owners were in fear of what Wyndham would do.  Could it now be that Wyndham is in fear of what the impacted owners, coupled with the state regulatory agencies could do?
> 
> Please know, Eric, I am not trying to start a rally against Wyndham.  I am simply trying to post my experience herein so that others may help me to figure out the puzzle as to why this has taken so long, and why no communication has been forthcoming as we near day 150 of the accounts hostage crisis.  Cue Ted Koppel.



I would make the contra-argument that they have let the situation drag-out so long because they know they have little exposure in terms of the trust and it's operations.

Likewise, the common themes seem to be VIP accounts, credit pooling, and use of optimal cancel/rebook. I run into VIP owners all the time who have no clue how to use any of those programs to their benefit. So while many here have been negatively impacted, I suspect the problem is not as common as this thread might lead you to believe.

The danger here is someone going off half-cocked having been emboldened by all the talk of "out of trust" and "regulatory agencies". We live in a society where it is very easy to find a lawyer to tilt at windmills, but in the end they are typically the only ones who benefits.

Conflating is combining two ideas into one - ie. combining the Club is out of trust with consumption of points.


----------



## bnoble

Roger830 said:


> What seems ironic is that when reading posts on this board over the past year, members were diligent about calling Wyndham when canceled points went to the wrong use year, except when the points moved into a forward use year.


Why should this be even the least bit surprising? "Problems" are always viewed contextually.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> Why should this be even the least bit surprising? "Problems" are always viewed contextually.



I do not work for Wyndham in any way so it is not my duty to inform them of any mistakes if I do not want to. At times I have wanted to inform them of mistakes (reservation system down, reservation would not cancel, etc I would not even bother as it was not worth the effort.  Anyone I could speak to at Wyndham would deny there was a problem even before they heard what the problem was.


----------



## wjappraise

Roger830 said:


> There is doubt that Wyndham handled this poorly, perhaps they didn't  realize scope of the problem.
> 
> What seems ironic is that when reading posts on this board over the past year, members were diligent about calling Wyndham when canceled points went to the wrong use year, except when the points moved into a forward use year.



I wouldn't call in when the points rolled forward as that was something the salesman told me when selling me another contract.  

I DID call when points showed up that shouldn't.  So no irony here. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

am1 said:


> I do not work for Wyndham in any way so it is not my duty to inform them of any mistakes if I do not want to. At times I have wanted to inform them of mistakes (reservation system down, reservation would not cancel, etc I would not even bother as it was not worth the effort.  Anyone I could speak to at Wyndham would deny there was a problem even before they heard what the problem was.



Let's say you discover a defect in the Wyndham reservation system that results in points being improperly credited to your account when a certain transaction sequence is processed. A defect that was created when a rule change was made.

I completely understand your position that you have no "duty" to Wyndham to inform them of that defect. But I would not go as far as to say you have no duty to Wyndham regarding the existence of the defect.

Consider what happens when an ATM gives you some extra money. Or a computer error results in money being deposited in your account. Issues that have been well-litigated.

The monopoly card "Bank error in your favor: Collect $200." is not based on sound legal principles. Finders keepers losers weepers is not a defense if you spend the money.

http://www.fightidentitytheft.com/b...things-everyone-should-know-about-bank-errors


----------



## am1

ecwinch said:


> Let's say you discover a defect in the Wyndham reservation system that results in points being improperly credited to your account when a certain transaction sequence is processed. A defect that was created when a rule change was made.
> 
> I completely understand your position that you have no "duty" to Wyndham to inform them of that defect. But I would not go as far as to say you have no duty to Wyndham regarding the existence of the defect.
> 
> Consider what happens when an ATM gives you some extra money. Or a computer error results in money being deposited in your account. Issues that have been well-litigated.
> 
> The monopoly card "Bank error in your favor: Collect $200." is not based on sound legal principles. Finders keepers losers weepers is not a defense if you spend the money.
> 
> http://www.fightidentitytheft.com/b...things-everyone-should-know-about-bank-errors



Have you ever tried to inform Wyndham of an error?  Even when points that were obviously in the credit pool went back as regular points with an expiration date in 2019 that was the same as a credit pool expiration date Wyndham denied there was an issue.  

Calling Wyndham and trying to let them know of errors in their system is not something that is good for my stress.

At times points being pushed forward cost me as I could not use them for the dates I wanted.  Wyndham refused to put them back into the correct use year.

Multiple Wyndham employees told me that in regards to the 10 nightly unit limit rule the 11th reservation booked would be cancelled.  In more then a few cases that did not happen.  The 10th was cancelled and the 11th was left.  This would happen when a unit was upgraded and the smaller unit was rebooked.  The upgraded unit was the one cancelled and the smaller unit that was booked last was not.  

Or the times where instead of a unit being upgraded it was just booked for the amount of points that was needed to book the smaller unit.  Saves a lot of time and risk for sure but then I end up with more reservations in my account then needed and puts me at risk of the nightly unit limit or overlapping reservations within 15 days of check in.  

Dozens of other times where Wyndham made mistakes and it cost me due to no fault of my own.  Trying to get it resolved is impossible even if Wyndham takes ownership of the mistake.  I have heard, "Lets check to see if it is still in availability" too many times.  In regards to a 4 bedroom presidential over a holiday week.  Then, "There is nothing available, we will keep searching for you" but never get a reply back and for sure not the room that Wyndham cancelled in error.  

These have been common occurrences with Wyndham doing much worst things to us owners.


----------



## ecwinch

Yes I have, and I agree that doing so is pointless as a practical matter. However, it does afford some legal protection.


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> Yes I have, and I agree that doing so is pointless as a practical matter. However, it does afford some legal protection.



So, if I have communicated with Wyndham about the overage of points, beginning January 2nd of 2016, again in March, and allowed the excess points to expire as opposed to using them, I have a better legal case?  The reason I ask is that I have experienced some monetary damages due to the unilateral action of suspending my account and not allowing me to add guest names, followed by allowing me to do so, but only with the $129 phone call in fee attached.  While the monetary damages to me are not huge, they do represent more than a thousand dollars.  

Thanks for your input.


----------



## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> So, if I have communicated with Wyndham about the overage of points, beginning January 2nd of 2016, again in March, and allowed the excess points to expire as opposed to using them, I have a better legal case?  The reason I ask is that I have experienced some monetary damages due to the unilateral action of suspending my account and not allowing me to add guest names, followed by allowing me to do so, but only with the $129 phone call in fee attached.  While the monetary damages to me are not huge, they do represent more than a thousand dollars.
> 
> Thanks for your input.



That is the position I would want to be in - that I alerted them to the problem and did not take advantage of the error they made. 

The damages part is tricky, particularly if you are counting lost profit. With the low dollar amount, I would talk tough and be loud in an attempt to get them to rollback the fees.

JMO


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> That is the position I would want to be in - that I alerted them to the problem and did not take advantage of the error they made.
> 
> The damages part is tricky, particularly if you are counting lost profit. With the low dollar amount, I would talk tough and be loud in an attempt to get them to rollback the fees.
> 
> JMO


Thanks, Eric.

Believe me I am NOT looking for lost profits, as my usage is not built on that model.  My ownership is used almost entirely for me and my extended family, and friends.  The damages were for having reservations cancelled because I had two in my name, when a guest reservation could not be added; for reservations that were not allowed to be truncated as I had some reservations that were seven days in length and I only needed five, but could not cancel the existing reservation and trim it to the five days; and as noted earlier, the guest fees that were higher than the online fees would be.  The part that is difficult to quantify is the inability to use my ARP to get the rooms we need for next year.  Thank you for your observation.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Thanks, Eric.
> 
> Believe me I am NOT looking for lost profits, as my usage is not built on that model.  My ownership is used almost entirely for me and my extended family, and friends.  The damages were for having reservations cancelled because I had two in my name, when a guest reservation could not be added; for reservations that were not allowed to be truncated as I had some reservations that were seven days in length and I only needed five, but could not cancel the existing reservation and trim it to the five days; and as noted earlier, the guest fees that were higher than the online fees would be.  The part that is difficult to quantify is the inability to use my ARP to get the rooms we need for next year.  Thank you for your observation.



Sounds like 10's of thousands of dollars in damages.  We know what those reservations at Bonnet Creek cost to rent.


----------



## SueDonJ

wjappraise said:


> SueDon, I believe you have a good handle on the matter with a few exceptions.
> 
> 1) Beyond the simple Credit pooling, a method was in place within Wyndham's point structure that would allow owners with multiple use years (1/1, 4/1, 7/1, 10/1 were my use years until a few weeks ago, now they are all 1/1), could effectively "roll points forward" by making a reservation with points that would expire on 3/31, and cancel the reservation the next day.  Once the following day showed the points balance (more on Wyndham being a day behind comes later) those points would be returned to the account with a new expiration date of 6/30, 9/30, or perhaps 12/31.  There really was no rhyme nor reason to it, and it did not work every time, but it did often enough for Wyndham sales to get wind of it and use this to encourage existing owners to buy contracts from them with an alternate use year than the existing contracts in the owner's account.
> 
> 2) Wyndham's IT department, unlike Marriot, DVC, and others, clearly has HUGE problems.  Speaking only from my circumstance, it is clear that some reservations when I would cancel them, would return many more points than the actual reservation "cost."  Complicating it is the fact that Wyndham takes an entire day to update your current point status, so an owner can only see yesterday's snapshot point total.  Therefore, if an owner is cancelling numerous reservations and making more on a particular day, there would be no way for him or her to know the glitch had impacted his or her point total until the next day, and that assumes that the owner would be looking for it.  For years, I simply trusted Wyndham's accounting for the points, like I do my bank account.  Years ago I would reconcile my bank account, now I simply enter my data into Quicken and go about my business.  It is the same for many of us impacted owners with regard to our point balances.  Once it became clear to me I had too many points, I let Wyndham know this.  This was on or about January 2, 2106.  I informed the rep while I was complaining about Credit Pool points being screwed up.  She took a couple of days, but called me back and said my points were just fine (I know they were not), but she was focused on my complaint of Credit Pool issues and refused to hear anything I had to say.  At that point, I had millions more points than I should have had.  I also let a Wyndham attorney, David Oigarden, know that the points debacle was a much bigger problem than what he was grinding me about (making more reservations than the ten per night limit).  This was sometime in March of 2016.  He told me he would pass along my concerns to Owner Care (I never heard a word).  I let millions of points expire on June 30, 2016.  Then my account was suspended in August 23, 2106.  More points expired September 30, 2016.  And I have millions more that will expire December 31, 2016.  I have made the choice to let those points expire because they are simply not my points (with the exception of a few points that are mine and I am using).  However, if I wanted to, I certainly could have made hundreds of reservations and sold them on Ebay, Redweek, or TUG.  Reservations sold for pennies on the dollar for "free points" would still make me a profit.  I believe that is what other impacted owners have done, perhaps to recoup some money from the losses they have incurred, or perhaps to spite Wyndham.  Either way, I think that explains the inordinate number of last minute reservations at RIDICULOUS low prices that are currently found on TUG bargain basement site.
> 
> 3) Some owners discovered a way that they could purchase larger contracts, and then place the points in the Credit Pool.  Then they could turn around and sell those contracts back to Wyndham via an associated broker.  Wyndham was buying contracts that had no points for two or three years.  However, it appears they populated these contracts with points once they sold them via their sales force.  This has resulted in perhaps 100s of millions of points created where there should be none.
> 
> So, I do not think it is a matter where comparing Wyndham to other TS companies will truly yield an apples-to-apples comparison.  I also believe that the method employed by Wyndham to freeze accounts for so long and to not respond to its owners has turned this into a combative relationship that could have easily been avoided.  That is where the arrogance coupled with the incompetence is so very frustrating for those of us impacted owners.



I knew the IT mess is playing a big part but couldn't figure them out so thanks very much for all this detail.  Wow!  Wyndham's incompetence is almost unbelievable except that you all have been quite vocal about it throughout the duration.  I'm hoping for a resolution that both fixes all of the issues and rewards you for your forced patience.


----------



## wjappraise

SueDonJ said:


> I knew the IT mess is playing a big part but couldn't figure them out so thanks very much for all this detail.  Wow!  Wyndham's incompetence is almost unbelievable except that you all have been quite vocal about it throughout the duration.  I'm hoping for a resolution that both fixes all of the issues and rewards you for your forced patience.



Thanks, SueDon.  The understanding and moral support is greatly appreciated.  This appears to be uncharted territory for most, if not all, of us.  It is nice to have this forum to "vent" but also to gain perspective that can be gathered from observations of those not in the middle of the fray.  It really is unbelievable what has transpired here, and how long it has dragged on.  When it first started, I literally could not sleep at night as I feared for the reservations I had for 70 people going with me from our church group to Orlando over Thanksgiving.  I was trying to calculate how much 70 flights would cost in case I had to reimburse 70 people who would not have rooms.  It was horrible, and all so unnecessary.  The alienation that Wyndham has established with some of its best paying owners (customers) is truly astounding.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Thanks, SueDon.  The understanding and moral support is greatly appreciated.  This appears to be uncharted territory for most, if not all, of us.  It is nice to have this forum to "vent" but also to gain perspective that can be gathered from observations of those not in the middle of the fray.  It really is unbelievable what has transpired here, and how long it has dragged on.  When it first started, I literally could not sleep at night as I feared for the reservations I had for 70 people going with me from our church group to Orlando over Thanksgiving.  I was trying to calculate how much 70 flights would cost in case I had to reimburse 70 people who would not have rooms.  It was horrible, and all so unnecessary.  The alienation that Wyndham has established with some of its best paying owners (customers) is truly astounding.



I still do not sleep properly over this.  It is very stressful to call 5 times and leave messages and then no one calls you back.  When I do call the regular Wyndham number I am told to just keep leaving messages as there is nothing that they can do.

One thing is for sure is that I would not advise anyone to buy Wyndham.  Retail which I use to make the case for could work for the right person or resale.  It does not matter as the risks are too high either way.


----------



## Richelle

am1 said:


> I still do not sleep properly over this.  It is very stressful to call 5 times and leave messages and then no one calls you back.  When I do call the regular Wyndham number I am told to just keep leaving messages as there is nothing that they can do.
> 
> One thing is for sure is that I would not advise anyone to buy Wyndham.  Retail which I use to make the case for could work for the right person or resale.  It does not matter as the risks are too high either way.



I find that the first level people are not usually helpful if it's not in the notes of the account, or if it's not solved with a script or procedure.  For example, I was told to fax the research department some paperwork.  So I faxed it.  I called the next day to see if they got it, and they said they did not see it in the notes but could take up to 48 hours for them to notate it on the account and to call the next day.  So I did.  Again, no notes that they had received all the paperwork.  They confirmed the number I faxed it to and they said, "yep that is the correct number.  They probably have no gotten to notating the account yet."  So I say "ok" and call a few days later.  Again, no notes.  They kept saying the research department should have it.  Finally I told the guy, "yes, they SHOULD have it, but without talking to someone in the research department, there is no guarantee they have it".  He said he did not have a direct line to the Research department, so he could not call over to find out.  So I said, "I always hate asking someone if I could talk to their supervisor, because I don't like being that person.  However, it sounds like you are not able to do much more with the resources Wyndham has given you.  Maybe your supervisor might have someone they can contact.  Could I speak with your supervisor?"  He said sure, and I had to wait a couple minutes, but the supervisor got on.  I gave him the story and while I was on hold again, he called his contact and they confirmed they received the fax and was even able to tell me the number it came from and the number of pages it was, so I know he was not BS'ing me.  Now, I have not called back to see if the notes are on my account yet.  I figured I'd wait until it's been a full week.  I guess that will be the final test to see if they followed through.

Update: Forgot to mention that I had faxed the paperwork twice.  It was the second on they confirmed they got.  No idea what happened to the first.


----------



## wjappraise

Richelle said:


> I find that the first level people are not usually helpful if it's not in the notes of the account, or if it's not solved with a script or procedure.  For example, I was told to fax the research department some paperwork.  So I faxed it.  I called the next day to see if they got it, and they said they did not see it in the notes but could take up to 48 hours for them to notate it on the account and to call the next day.  So I did.  Again, no notes that they had received all the paperwork.  They confirmed the number I faxed it to and they said, "yep that is the correct number.  They probably have no gotten to notating the account yet."  So I say "ok" and call a few days later.  Again, no notes.  They kept saying the research department should have it.  Finally I told the guy, "yes, they SHOULD have it, but without talking to someone in the research department, there is no guarantee they have it".  He said he did not have a direct line to the Research department, so he could not call over to find out.  So I said, "I always hate asking someone if I could talk to their supervisor, because I don't like being that person.  However, it sounds like you are not able to do much more with the resources Wyndham has given you.  Maybe your supervisor might have someone they can contact.  Could I speak with your supervisor?"  He said sure, and I had to wait a couple minutes, but the supervisor got on.  I gave him the story and while I was on hold again, he called his contact and they confirmed they received the fax and was even able to tell me the number it came from and the number of pages it was, so I know he was not BS'ing me.  Now, I have not called back to see if the notes are on my account yet.  I figured I'd wait until it's been a full week.  I guess that will be the final test to see if they followed through.
> 
> Update: Forgot to mention that I had faxed the paperwork twice.  It was the second on they confirmed they got.  No idea what happened to the first.



Ladies and gentlemen:  Your top notch customer service, courtesy of Wyndham.


----------



## Richelle

wjappraise said:


> Ladies and gentlemen:  Your top notch customer service, courtesy of Wyndham.



If it makes any difference, I did call today and not only is it notated on the account, they also processed it and I have money coming back to me. 

It should be noted that my account is not a VIP and not suspended.  This was for a separate issue.


----------



## wjappraise

Is anyone getting any responses from the 877- number or the acctinfo@wyn.com regarding impacted owners account?  I have emailed seven times over the past two weeks, without so much as a "we got your email, and will contact you later," or a "drop dead" in response.  But they keep cashing my MF payments!!!


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Is anyone getting any responses from the 877- number or the acctinfo@wyn.com regarding impacted owners account?



Yes


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> Yes



Any suggestions for me?  Sent through the 8th email with no response today.  Thanks.


----------



## Sandi Bo

wjappraise said:


> Any suggestions for me?  Sent through the 8th email with no response today.  Thanks.


Say your name is Ron?   

Sorry -- I know this is beyond frustrating.  The inconsistencies across the board -- from 'terms and conditions' agreed to (or not) to returning calls is unbelievable.


----------



## am1

Sandi Bo said:


> Say your name is Ron?
> 
> Sorry -- I know this is beyond frustrating.  The inconsistencies across the board -- from 'terms and conditions' agreed to (or not) to returning calls is unbelievable.



No replies by e-mail in 4 weeks and at that time they wanted to call me we were trying to resolve somethings.  Or at least I thought.


----------



## bnoble

Just armchair quarterbacking, but...

Ron appears to have been willing to actively work with the folks at WVO. In return, they seem to be helping him. Flies, honey, vinegar, etc.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> Just armchair quarterbacking, but...
> 
> Ron appears to have been willing to actively work with the folks at WVO. In return, they seem to be helping him. Flies, honey, vinegar, etc.



It may be what he is asking for or willing to accept.


----------



## Bigrob

bnoble said:


> Just armchair quarterbacking, but...
> 
> Ron appears to have been willing to actively work with the folks at WVO. In return, they seem to be helping him. Flies, honey, vinegar, etc.



That may be a part of it. There may also be recognition that Ron is very active (and vocal) with lots of connections within the timeshare and real estate business. It may also be the case that Wyndham is focusing on certain specific members/accounts first for various reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with surmising what one is "willing to accept" because they haven't even had a discussion with people to know what they would be willing to accept.


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> That may be a part of it. There may also be recognition that Ron is very active (and vocal) with lots of connections within the timeshare and real estate business. It may also be the case that Wyndham is focusing on certain specific members/accounts first for various reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with surmising what one is "willing to accept" because they haven't even had a discussion with people to know what they would be willing to accept.



I concur.  It could be he is viewed by Wyndham as "patient zero," and once his situation is resovled, they will move on to others.  My concern is that we have been told to contact the email address with our needs, as opposed to calling the normal phone numbers, and this email goes unresponded.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> It may be what he is asking for or willing to accept.



I'm sure that Ron makes himself available to talk to them when they contact him and doesn't expect them to call back at his convenience

Are you the person who mentioned in your posts that there have been several times they have called you that you found it inconvenient to speak with them? In other circumstances and with another company I wouldn't be saying this but now seems to be the time to shout FROG and ask how high on the way up when they say jump. 

I may be mistaken but I'm under the impression that Wyndham is only currently dealing/negotiating with the owners who are just seeking to get out without losing their shirts because they manipulated the system in some way or found a way to get many more points than they owned which they then used. Although your situation may be different from theirs I still don't believe that Wyndham will consider compensating you for damages or loss of income no matter how justifiable it is. If you are considering any legal action against Wyndham I would recommend finding out everything you can so you have a clear and realistic understanding of what you can expect, both monetary and treatment, if you would decide to go that route. Because you want more than to just be unfrozen I'm guessing that unfortunately your account has now most likely been flagged as uncooperative and or hostile. However if you can accept dealing with being frozen as a separate issue from compensation, getting some kind of legal help to assist you in opening a dialogue to resolve your being frozen might be a course of action you would want to consider at this point. 

Another thing to consider from what Ron has said is that Wyndham may be determined to force you out and if that is the case you don't have too many options. If you are in a situation where you are continuing to pay an enormous amount of maintenance fees but aren't able to bring in the income to offset them, then Wyndham is holding all the cards while you dangle in the wind. It may be time to kiss the money you've lost goodbye and start thinking very seriously about an exit strategy that allows you not to lose your shirt rather than to engage in a lengthy battle you aren't likely to even break even on in the end. A bitter pill to swallow and big enough to choke a horse.


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> Just armchair quarterbacking, but...
> 
> Ron appears to have been willing to actively work with the folks at WVO. In return, they seem to be helping him. Flies, honey, vinegar, etc.





At this point all I can say is:

“The parties have satisfactorily resolved all of their differences.”


----------



## John_and_Val

does that mean your account is "un-frozen"????


----------



## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> At this point all I can say is:
> 
> “The parties have satisfactorily resolved all of their differences.”



Sounds like the standard non-disclosure is part of the satisfactory resolution of "all their differences".


----------



## bogey21

ronparise said:


> “The parties have satisfactorily resolved all of their differences.”



Congratulations.  I suspect that this is the result of hard work, persistence and a willingness to compromise.

George


----------



## ronparise

John_and_Val said:


> does that mean your account is "un-frozen"????


 
The parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> “The parties have satisfactorily resolved all of their differences.”


My armchair QB skills are up there with the best of them!


----------



## Richelle

ronparise said:


> The parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences



Congratulations on satisfactorily resolving you differences.


----------



## am1

Jan M. said:


> I'm sure that Ron makes himself available to talk to them when they contact him and doesn't expect them to call back at his convenience
> 
> Are you the person who mentioned in your posts that there have been several times they have called you that you found it inconvenient to speak with them? In other circumstances and with another company I wouldn't be saying this but now seems to be the time to shout FROG and ask how high on the way up when they say jump.



Your post seems to assume a lot of things.  My number 1 goal through all of this since August is to make sure my guests reservations are secure.  I cannot just exit because of that.  I also have too much invested to just walk away.

Yes Wyndham wanted to schedule a meeting for 6 days out and I told them that day would not work.  Never heard back from them on that and it is now 4 weeks later. 

Does anyone agree with Wyndham pushing owners around and forcing them out?  Who would ever buy from such a company?


----------



## Richelle

am1 said:


> Your post seems to assume a lot of things.  My number 1 goal through all of this since August is to make sure my guests reservations are secure.  I cannot just exit because of that.  I also have too much invested to just walk away.
> 
> Yes Wyndham wanted to schedule a meeting for 6 days out and I told them that day would not work.  Never heard back from them on that and it is now 4 weeks later.
> 
> Does anyone agree with Wyndham pushing owners around and forcing them out?  Who would ever buy from such a company?



Well, since Ron's not talking, it's hard to say what they are trying to do but that could be it. Maybe they are hoping that if the mega renters will lose enough money that they will give up and sell or give away their timeshares. The problem is, the mega renters have dumped a ton of money into Wyndham, just like you have, and are not going to just give up. The non-mega renters spent a small fortune on their points with no return on the investment like the mega renters get. They lose even more. If I paid six figures to become VIP, I would not be giving that up.   I'm sure Wyndham knows that it will not be easy to force owners out. 

Since Wyndham is a publicly traded company, they have to answer to the shareholders. They have votes on stuff. Not sure if you get one vote per share or just one vote per shareholder. Maybe someone with more knowledge then I can answer that. I'm just wondering if it's possible to get enough voting power to be able to make their lives difficult too.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## buckor

Richelle said:


> Well, since Ron's not talking, it's hard to say what they are trying to do but that could be it. Maybe they are hoping that if the mega renters will lose enough money that they will give up and sell or give away their timeshares. The problem is, the mega renters have dumped a ton of money into Wyndham, just like you have, and are not going to just give up. The non-mega renters spent a small fortune on their points with no return on the investment like the mega renters get. They lose even more. If I paid six figures to become VIP, I would not be giving that up.   I'm sure Wyndham knows that it will not be easy to force owners out.
> 
> Since Wyndham is a publicly traded company, they have to answer to the shareholders. They have votes on stuff. Not sure if you get one vote per share or just one vote per shareholder. Maybe someone with more knowledge then I can answer that. I'm just wondering if it's possible to get enough voting power to be able to make their lives difficult too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Each share gets a vote...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

am1 said:


> Your post seems to assume a lot of things.  My number 1 goal through all of this since August is to make sure my guests reservations are secure.  I cannot just exit because of that.  I also have too much invested to just walk away.



Ron apparently has had his issues resolved to his satisfaction. What do you attribute the difference between your situation and his to?


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## Richelle

ecwinch said:


> Ron apparently has had his issues resolved to his satisfaction. What do you attribute the difference between your situation and his to?



Ron had some sort of leverage?


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## ecwinch

Compromising photo's of Franz Hanning?  Maybe the two events are related... hmmm


----------



## ronparise

Richelle said:


> Ron had some sort of leverage?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ha ha ha

Go back and read my posts in this thread to see how much leverage I thought I had


----------



## John_and_Val

This is kinda like the guy who gets 20 years in prison for running drugs. 5 years in, you see him on the streets.......
How did he get out so early????????   Information is worth a lot to the right people.

Some call that guy a rat......Some call him a genius!!!!!
We might not ever know....but obviously changes are coming. And Ron did what was in his best interest. I advise all to do the same. If you think Wyndham is going to roll over and play dead.....you are gravely mistaken. I think they know more now than ever.....And with all the frozen accounts - they will get more information on the real way their system is run.


----------



## wjappraise

Richelle said:


> Ron had some sort of leverage?



Doesn't sound like that.  It sounds more like New England Patriots "accepting" a $500,000 fine and loss of draft picks over the "DeflateGate" debacle.  They really had no choice in the matter, but attempted to take the high road.


----------



## Richelle

wjappraise said:


> Doesn't sound like that.  It sounds more like New England Patriots "accepting" a $500,000 fine and loss of draft picks over the "DeflateGate" debacle.  They really had no choice in the matter, but attempted to take the high road.



I think you may be right. He may have also brought a lawyer in on it to help speed things up. 


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## bnoble

Folks, the speculation (er, gossip) is a little unfair given that Ron can't say more than he has already.


----------



## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> Folks, the speculation (er, gossip) is a little unfair given that Ron can't say more than he has already.



Hmmmm. . . ."arm chair quarterbacking" . . . . "speculation er, gossip."   Sounds like the exact same things.


----------



## Richelle

bnoble said:


> Folks, the speculation (er, gossip) is a little unfair given that Ron can't say more than he has already.



Good point. I just wish Wyndham would give people a little more to go on. It's hard to use the honey method if they don't return your calls or emails. Unless someone wants to go to their corporate office in person, I don't see that changing. I'd go but I'm not a VIP so they wouldn't talk to me about it anyway. Has anyone gotten a lawyer involved?  Just curious as to if they had more interaction with Wyndham the people without lawyers. 

I'm not asking you Ron. 


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## bnoble

wjappraise said:


> Hmmmm. . . ."arm chair quarterbacking" . . . . "speculation er, gossip."   Sounds like the exact same things.


Not quite. I wrote a simple observation, based on Ron's own words in this thread, and made a comparison to his approach vs. some others. I did not try to speculate on motivation or the details of the outcome.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

I agree it is a little unfair to Ron if we gossip .
The " DeflateGate" acceptance by the Patriots - sounds like a good analogy.

I will add & paraphrase a legacy Ron post :
" When I owned 100 low priced rental houses" and had to locate the tenants - so I could collect the rent .
- I made sure I knew - the  guy on the corner who sold "product" - because we both had a common interest .... "

I think Ron used all his " learning & skills " to find a "resolution " - that he can live with .

Good luck :  that all who are / were "frozen "-  can achieve the same in 2017 .

****
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to :  Ron Parise
and ALL of you on this thread .

It has been quite a read in 2016
and will not likely end at year end .

.


----------



## Tia

Wyndham has access to information regular owners do not, they will do what they want be it right or not. Whose going to know or have proof?  


My understanding is they bankrupt Equivest back ~2008 when Bluebeards Castle HOA's had proof and a legitimate claim, legal maneuvering. Castle still got a huge settlement, but not as much as it might of I gather from reading a certain yahoo group .


----------



## SueDonJ

bnoble said:


> Folks, the speculation (er, gossip) is a little unfair given that Ron can't say more than he has already.



True, it's not fair to speculate specifically about what Ron might have done/known/accepted, although Ron could have avoided it by simply saying nothing.  

But if I were an owner in the same boat with a frozen account and I learned that Wyndham is selectively choosing to work with some affected owners (apparently asking them to agree to non-disclosure terms) while completely ignoring others, I'd be even more pissed as all get-out!  Not at Ron, but at Wyndham!  They've already done enough to cause unbelievable frustration and worry, this is just piling on.


----------



## ecwinch

SueDonJ said:


> True, it's not fair to speculate specifically about what Ron might have done/known/accepted, although Ron could have avoided it by simply saying nothing.
> 
> But if I were an owner in the same boat with a frozen account and I learned that Wyndham is selectively choosing to work with some affected owners (apparently asking them to agree to non-disclosure terms) while completely ignoring others, I'd be even more pissed as all get-out!  Not at Ron, but at Wyndham!  They've already done enough to cause unbelievable frustration and worry, this is just piling on.


Come on Sue - if we stopped speculation, there would be at least 35% less posts on this forum.


----------



## SueDonJ

ecwinch said:


> Come on Sue - if we stopped speculation, there would be at least 35% less posts on this forum.



Oh I agree!  Maybe I worded it wrong but I'm trying to say that speculating about what it might take to reach an agreement with Wyndham is different than trying to force Ron to share what worked for him (which is how I read a few of the posts.)  It might just me but in the other owners' shoes, I wouldn't find it helpful to know that there can be a resolution with Wyndham unless I also knew how to reach it.  And that's why if I were in Ron's shoes I probably would have just stayed away from the thread rather than dropping just enough bombs to further tick off the others who are similarly affected (and possibly, risking Wyndham's wrath by skirting the non-disclosure terms?)


----------



## ecwinch

SueDonJ said:


> Oh I agree!  Maybe I worded it wrong but I'm trying to say that speculating about what it might take to reach an agreement with Wyndham is different than trying to force Ron to share what worked for him (which is how I read a few of the posts.)  It might just me but in the other owners' shoes, I wouldn't find it helpful to know that there can be a resolution with Wyndham unless I also knew how to reach it.  And that's why if I were in Ron's shoes I probably would have just stayed away from the thread rather than dropping just enough bombs to further tick off the others who are similarly affected (and possibly, risking Wyndham's wrath by skirting the non-disclosure terms?)



Agreed. No need to try to cajole Ron into violating his NDA.

BTW - how close is this thread to eclipsing the post record of the Marriott Ocean Club (Aruba) thread and are you still getting those extra pens and soap?


----------



## am1

ecwinch said:


> Agreed. No need to try to cajole Ron into violating his NDA.



Lot of back in forth on here with very little information on this.  

We may eventually get some more useful info from people that actually have info.


----------



## SueDonJ

ecwinch said:


> Agreed. No need to try to cajole Ron into violating his NDA.
> 
> BTW - how close is this thread to eclipsing the post record of the Marriott Ocean Club (Aruba) thread and are you still getting those extra pens and soap?



Sometimes I miss that thread; it's standing at 2,814 Replies/222,445 Views.  And I've moved on from the pens to trying to put together a set of Fiestaware dishes.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Wow - 2814 replies and 222,445 views 

I do not think I had read or joined TUG  as I have no memory of it  - when did it " start " 

I thought 88,000 and growing might be much closer to a  "record " 

.


----------



## SueDonJ

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Wow - 2814 replies and 222,445 views
> 
> I do not think I had read or joined TUG  as I have no memory of it  - when did it " start "
> 
> I thought 88,000 and growing might be much closer to a  "record "
> 
> .



Started Oct '08 and active through Jul '11, in the Marriott forum.  It leads that forum in number of Views but comes in second for Replies.

You can find out all the Replies/Views stats by forum, by going to each forum's home page and clicking on either "Replies" or "Views" in the yellow task bar.  There are a few other sort commands as well.  If you test it, you can easily get back to the forum's default setting by clicking on "Last Message" all the way on the right.


----------



## Jan M.

SueDonJ said:


> True, it's not fair to speculate specifically about what Ron might have done/known/accepted, although Ron could have avoided it by simply saying nothing.
> 
> But if I were an owner in the same boat with a frozen account and I learned that Wyndham is selectively choosing to work with some affected owners (apparently asking them to agree to non-disclosure terms) while completely ignoring others, I'd be even more pissed as all get-out!  Not at Ron, but at Wyndham!  They've already done enough to cause unbelievable frustration and worry, this is just piling on.



Wyndham's MO is to always try to intimidate as much as possible and in every way possible, when they've decided that the evidence is overwhelmingly against them they settle out of court and always get a non disclosure agreement. As part of the settlement they take back your deeds and you are prohibited from owning Wyndham in the future. They really, really don't want the rest of us owners finding out about their misdeeds. This is what I was told by two different attorneys associated with a class action lawsuit against Wyndham. I had no interest in joining the lawsuit but I asked a lot of questions and what I learned was interesting and typical of any big company.

Think about the chain of events. Wyndham found out when the issue with the credit pool was brought to their attention that it was not an isolated incident. They instituted a search program to identify owners with more reservations than the points they own could account for and froze those owner's accounts. Their lawyers contacted owners and saying tell us what you did and it will go easier. They were clearly fishing for information and I believe from following the posts that what they found was that there were more glitches and ways to manipulate the system than they had realized.

There are certain mega renters that Wyndham has wanted to get rid of for some time. It appears to me that Wyndham was handed a golden opportunity to rid themselves of some of these mega renters and is using it. Owners who purchased at certain resorts because they wanted to be able to go to that specific resort were having an extremely hard time getting reservations because those resorts and peak times were a cash cow for the mega renters who had the means to get a large number of the best reservations. Those unhappy owners made their complaints known to Wyndham and the rule to limit the number of reservations one owner could have was instituted but was completely ineffective because some of the big mega renters had also become points managers and could book the maximum number of reservations for every owner they handled. Also several of the mega renters had amazing websites that made it look like they owned the resorts. Their websites even had better pictures of the resorts and units than Wyndham's website! Too many renters were telling sales at those resorts that they had no need to buy because the mega renter they used could get them the reservations they wanted with no big outlay to own. Wyndham has had a "hate on" for these mega renter/owners for some time. Ron saw the handwriting on the wall and was realistic and proactive in dealing with his situation. I'm sure there are some other big owners/mega renters who took the same path.

Some people who were frozen were restored fully or partially after their audits were completed and if needed adjustments were made to their points. We've really only seen posts from a small number of people who were frozen. It makes sense that Wyndham is focusing on trying to figure out how to fix their system to eliminate and prevent the glitches and opportunities for manipulation that were uncovered. But the delay is leaving some owners paying huge maintenance fees while not able to get the good reservations they need for themselves and/or their rentals. A couple of these owners who have been posting are very frustrated by the lack of communication from Wyndham. I'm wondering if it is intentional on Wyndham's part. As we have read in the posts anyone who is in the rental business has already lost out on the reservations they would normally have booked for next summer and now it looks like they are losing the reservations for next Thanksgiving and Christmas too. Is Wyndham's strategy to let them bleed money while their rental business slowly dies? Maybe it is because of the holidays and the end of the 2016 use year and after the first of the year having reached settlements with the first layer of owners they will proceed onto the next layer of owners?

I think we all can grasp that Wyndham can't actually come out and make any announcements because that could be perceived as admitting they failed to do what they promised in maintaining an accurate accounting system. But this whole situation leaves all of us with a lot of questions and feeling insecure about our ownerships.


----------



## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> Just armchair quarterbacking, but...
> 
> Ron appears to have been willing to actively work with the folks at WVO. In return, they seem to be helping him. Flies, honey, vinegar, etc.





ecwinch said:


> Come on Sue - if we stopped speculation, there would be at least 35% less posts on this forum.



Just don't call it "speculation," call it "armchair quarterbacking."  Same action, less vitriol.


----------



## wjappraise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Wow - 2814 replies and 222,445 views
> 
> I do not think I had read or joined TUG  as I have no memory of it  - when did it " start "
> 
> I thought 88,000 and growing might be much closer to a  "record "
> 
> .



It is a record, for the Wyndham forum.  Just not for the entire TUG site.


----------



## bnoble

wjappraise said:


> Just don't call it "speculation," call it "armchair quarterbacking."  Same action, less vitriol.


Welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## jumoe

Jan M. said:


> Some people who were frozen were restored fully...



Has anyone been restored fully?  I have many restrictions.  I can book, cancel, add guest passes, but that is about it.  No buying, selling, RCI, etc.


----------



## wjappraise

I don't believe anyone has been fully restored.   


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> I don't believe anyone has been fully restored.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I guess they are in succeeding in annoying a lot of owners.  Yesterday there were no call backs even after 10 messages were left.  I just had to keep calling the 1-877 number.  Sometimes 10 - 15 times then waiting for a few minutes before being given the option for a non existent call back.  Then try again. 

My question is still what is so difficult about canceling reservations and adding guest names to rooms within the next 15 - 20 days that regular owner care could not handle it?  Or is it just another way to frustrate us?


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> I guess they are in succeeding in annoying a lot of owners.  Yesterday there were no call backs even after 10 messages were left.  I just had to keep calling the 1-877 number.  Sometimes 10 - 15 times then waiting for a few minutes before being given the option for a non existent call back.  Then try again.
> 
> My question is still what is so difficult about canceling reservations and adding guest names to rooms within the next 15 - 20 days that regular owner care could not handle it?  Or is it just another way to frustrate us?



Adam - this is what is puzzling to me about your case and your approach.  Why haven't you accepted the simple terms outlined for you to have your account "unfrozen"?   For those of us in the same situation, it is very frustrating to have this debacle into the fifth month. But I agreed to the limited terms, which really were not ones that I surrendered rights, but simply that I would follow rules I already did follow.  This has allowed me to have website availability to make and cancel reservations and add guest certificates since October 27.  While not ideal. It is so much better than what I had prior and what you are still dealing with.  And I agree it is unfair and heavy handed how Wyndham is proceeding. But they are the boss here, always have been, always will be.  

BNoble stated that likely if we use honey instead of vinegar, we will get more cooperation from Wyndham.  He's right.  It is ridiculous that we have to bend the knee, but it is necessary.  And in the interim, it is nice to have website access, even with its limitations.  Wouldn't you be better off to reconsider your approach?  


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----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Adam - this is what is puzzling to me about your case and your approach.  Why haven't you accepted the simple terms outlined for you to have your account "unfrozen"?   For those of us in the same situation, it is very frustrating to have this debacle into the fifth month. But I agreed to the limited terms, which really were not ones that I surrendered rights, but simply that I would follow rules I already did follow.  This has allowed me to have website availability to make and cancel reservations and add guest certificates since October 27.  While not ideal. It is so much better than what I had prior and what you are still dealing with.  And I agree it is unfair and heavy handed how Wyndham is proceeding. But they are the boss here, always have been, always will be.
> 
> BNoble stated that likely if we use honey instead of vinegar, we will get more cooperation from Wyndham.  He's right.  It is ridiculous that we have to bend the knee, but it is necessary.  And in the interim, it is nice to have website access, even with its limitations.  Wouldn't you be better off to reconsider your approach?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



For my accounts there was no offer of restoring access right away what was offered was at some point in the future access may be restored.  I wanted assurances when that would be and Wyndham did not provide that.


----------



## ecwinch

am1 said:


> For my accounts there was no offer of restoring access right away what was offered was at some point in the future access may be restored.  I wanted assurances when that would be and Wyndham did not provide that.



Have you sent Wyndham a demand letter?

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/demand-letter-settle-dispute-30105.html


----------



## am1

ecwinch said:


> Have you sent Wyndham a demand letter?
> 
> https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/demand-letter-settle-dispute-30105.html



I have sent dozens of e-mails to the e-mail address Wyndham provided and instructed me to contact with any issues.  I have had almost 0 responses and even less answers. 

I will look into a demand letter.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> For my accounts there was no offer of restoring access right away what was offered was at some point in the future access may be restored.  I wanted assurances when that would be and Wyndham did not provide that.



I am sorry Adam, I thought you had been offered the same terms for unfreezing your account as the rest of the impacted owners. 


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----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> I am sorry Adam, I thought you had been offered the same terms for unfreezing your account as the rest of the impacted owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I am sure I would have accepted those terms, almost any terms that would allow me access to my ownerships.  Wyndham has turned this ordeal into a nightmare.  

The resorts are amazing, people are great but the management and sales hold Wyndham back from an owners perspective.  After this I would never suggest anyone purchase resale or retail.  Unless they want a headache and constant uncertainty.


----------



## Sandi Bo

SueDonJ said:


> True, it's not fair to speculate specifically about what Ron might have done/known/accepted, although Ron could have avoided it by simply saying nothing.
> 
> But if I were an owner in the same boat with a frozen account and I learned that Wyndham is selectively choosing to work with some affected owners (apparently asking them to agree to non-disclosure terms) while completely ignoring others, I'd be even more pissed as all get-out!  Not at Ron, but at Wyndham!  They've already done enough to cause unbelievable frustration and worry, this is just piling on.



From my armchair... looks like Wyndham has silenced/taken out of the equation someone who could have organized/been the voice for many of the people being affected by the frozen account situation.  Divide and conquer... I say they do know what they are doing.


----------



## wjappraise

Sandi Bo said:


> From my armchair... looks like Wyndham has silenced/taken out of the equation someone who could have organized/been the voice for many of the people being affected by the frozen account situation.  Divide and conquer... I say they do know what they are doing.



I had not thought about that.  Wow, what an accomplishment if this is what they have done.  

Has everyone else read the post?: Wyndham being discussed in the financial press - 346 lawsuits

What a expose this is, I wonder if the difficulties with their IT that resulted in suspended accounts has reach the point of more than one state being involved?  Somewhat telling when the corporate leaders are selling off their stock in the company they represent.  I cannot help but wonder if all of this is related.


----------



## am1

Wyndham is winning today.  On my call back I am told that reservations can only be touched for checks in today and tomorrow.  Guest names cannot be added to reservations past January 1.  Cancellations cannot be done past January.  Even January 14 which today is 15 days to check in.  I am told exceptions will be made on Monday but I have to call in before the department who cancels overlapping reservations get their hands on that reservation or the one at a another resort that I do not want cancelled.

Are all owners facing these restrictions today over the phone?  I am told I am not being singled out but have my doubts.  I never read this policy in any of the material provided by Wyndham.  Maybe the end of the use year should not be in the biggest travel week of the year?  Especially not going into peoples accounts and changes use years to January 1.  Giving owners the option of 1 use year between the 4 would alleviate this problem. 

Why does Wyndham make their staffing issues my problems?

Hopefully 2017 is better for Wyndham as they really made a mess of 2016.


----------



## uscav8r

am1 said:


> I am sure I would have accepted those terms, almost any terms that would allow me access to my ownerships.  Wyndham has turned this ordeal into a nightmare.
> 
> The resorts are amazing, people are great but the management and sales hold Wyndham back from an owners perspective.  After this I would never suggest anyone purchase resale or retail.  Unless they want a headache and constant uncertainty.



This issue seems to have only affected high-volume VIP owners or megarenter type owners. The vast majority of owners appear not to have had to deal with this problem. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John or Jane Doe

am1 said:


> Are all owners facing these restrictions today over the phone?


Are there other owners still frozen (besides you). 

From what I've observed - it seems like you've been targeted/had different restrictions and conditions all along. 

I am slushy these days (unfrozen with restrictions).  But when I was frozen - I could call the VIP line (I gave up on the 877 due to long hold times or getting a recording).  Calling the VIP line they would add GC's and cancel reservations (that is all they would do - no new bookings or upgrades).   If you call the VIP line they won't help you?  From what I've read here I assume no - that only the 877 line people will assist you (maybe... if they answer the phone)?  I really don't understand why they won't put GC's on your reservations - that makes no sense to me.

Kudos to you am1.  I don't know how you've managed to stick with this for so long. I wish you the very best of luck. 

For all let's hope an end to this audit madness soon!!!!


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Are all owners facing these restrictions today over the phone?  I am told I am not being singled out but have my doubts.  I never read this policy in any of the material provided by Wyndham.  Maybe the end of the use year should not be in the biggest travel week of the year?  Especially not going into peoples accounts and changes use years to January 1.  Giving owners the option of 1 use year between the 4 would alleviate this problem.
> 
> Why does Wyndham make their staffing issues my problems?
> 
> Hopefully 2017 is better for Wyndham as they really made a mess of 2016.



I believe there are three categories of impacted owners with this "suspension."   The first category is the owners that Wyndham is negotiating to end their ownership.  

The second category is where you are, with minimal activity allowed and all of it requiring a phone call in - guest names, cancellations, etc.  The rules change by the day and depend on who answers the phone. This group appears to be one that Wyndham may view as combative.   

The third category is where most of us "impacted owners" are; enjoying use of our online accounts with notable limitations placed on the account.  We have had no updates nor communication since September or October.  And we do not know if our accounts will be fully reconciled and reinstated or if we will revert to group one, targeted for termination, er, negotiation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Wyndham is winning today.  On my call back I am told that reservations can only be touched for checks in today and tomorrow.  Guest names cannot be added to reservations past January 1.  Cancellations cannot be done past January.  Even January 14 which today is 15 days to check in.  I am told exceptions will be made on Monday but I have to call in before the department who cancels overlapping reservations get their hands on that reservation or the one at a another resort that I do not want cancelled.



Adam, were you able to get your reservations fixed today before they cancelled the ones that overlapped?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> Adam, were you able to get your reservations fixed today before they cancelled the ones that overlapped?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes was able to add a guest name to one.  Still a joke that on the 31st they were limiting what could be done.  I am sure that was not the case on the regular lines.


----------



## Jan M.

I don't have the IT background that some of the other people who post do so I find it extremely hard to understand how it could possibly be taking this long to fix their system. And at this point I wonder if it can be fixed. I find it very curious that the outage was supposed to last until tomorrow morning but didn't even last 24 hours! Apparently IT couldn't deliver whatever management ordered and expected to be ready.

This is what we do know:
1. There was a $20m settlement the court awarded the sales employee over targeting the elderly. Not a good thing to be caught doing as the courts are taking a very dim view of taking advantage of the elderly.
2. Wyndham is currently involved in 348 lawsuits which is a huge number compared to other timeshare companies.
3. The top people in Wyndham have been selling off their stock for the past 2 years
4. The drop in Wyndham stock prices is expected to continue indicating a lack of confidence.
5. The abrupt departure of Franz Hanning is seen in the financial community as suspect.
6. The Ovations program is a smashing success. It costs Wyndham money to take back these deeds and to carry the maintenance fees on them.
7. If they run the mega renters and point managers out of business there will be a massive dumping of deeds worth billions of points. Does Wyndham have the reserves to settle/buy back these deeds and carry that much more in maintenance fees to keep them off the resale market?
8. A massive dumping of deeds on the resale market will be noticed and further hurt the stock prices. In addition to making it all that much harder for Wyndham to sell developer points.
9. Some owners gained huge numbers of points with credit pool issues. Some used those points.
10. Some owners stripped deeds, likely in excess of a billion points, and resold those deeds which came back with full points because Wyndham didn't do their due diligence.
11. Wyndham's computer system is such an unholy mess that none of us has any confidence that they can fix it.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Jan M. said:


> I don't have the IT background that some of the other people who post do so I find it extremely hard to understand how it could possibly be taking this long to fix their system. And at this point I wonder if it can be fixed. I find it very curious that the outage was supposed to last until tomorrow morning but didn't even last 24 hours! Apparently IT couldn't deliver whatever management ordered and expected to be ready.
> 
> This is what we do know:
> 1. There was a $20m settlement the court awarded the sales employee over targeting the elderly. Not a good thing to be caught doing as the courts are taking a very dim view of taking advantage of the elderly.
> 2. Wyndham is currently involved in 348 lawsuits which is a huge number compared to other timeshare companies.
> 3. The top people in Wyndham have been selling off their stock for the past 2 years
> 4. The drop in Wyndham stock prices is expected to continue indicating a lack of confidence.
> 5. The abrupt departure of Franz Hanning is seen in the financial community as suspect.
> 6. The Ovations program is a smashing success. It costs Wyndham money to take back these deeds and to carry the maintenance fees on them.
> 7. If they run the mega renters and point managers out of business there will be a massive dumping of deeds worth billions of points. Does Wyndham have the reserves to settle/buy back these deeds and carry that much more in maintenance fees to keep them off the resale market?
> 8. A massive dumping of deeds on the resale market will be noticed and further hurt the stock prices. In addition to making it all that much harder for Wyndham to sell developer points.
> 9. Some owners gained huge numbers of points with credit pool issues. Some used those points.
> 10. Some owners stripped deeds, likely in excess of a billion points, and resold those deeds which came back with full points because Wyndham didn't do their due diligence.
> 11. Wyndham's computer system is such an unholy mess that none of us has any confidence that they can fix it.



Thanks for the great recap. 

I think I would say #9 a little differently - maybe 3 points - I am not aware of people getting excess points due to credit pooling issues:
9a.  There are issues with credit pooling. Credit pooled points return as regular use year points (sometimes). This actually benefits Wyndham. We pay to credit pool our points and extend the expiration but when used for a reservation and then cancelled the points come back as regular use year points and expire in the current use year.   
9b.  There are known issues with points amassing due to owners having split use years. Points rolled forward (for years) and never expired.  This caused people to have more points available than contracts support for a given use year. The system issue has been fixed but the amassed points still exist (and may have caused people to be included in the audit). 
9c.  There are known (maybe not before the audit) issues with the system not calculating points correctly. Some examples were around bought and sold resale contracts with reservations on them (and the reservations then being in both accounts).  There were other reporting accounting anomalies.


----------



## am1

I had 10's of millions of points push forward since before Wyndham stopped people from transferring points.  I took a huge gamble and paid other owners to transfer points into my account.  I could not stop the point from being pushed forward even when I wanted to.  It was the system that did that on its own.  It then caused Wyndham to wonder why I have many more points in my account then I should have.  Almost 6 months later and my accounts are still locked.  I have lost out on shortening my reservations, splitting them, discounts, upgrades, canceling reservations, booking new reservations and on September 30 and December 31 points expiring.  There does not seem to be an end in sight.


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## Sandi Bo

am1 said:


> I had 10's of millions of points push forward since before Wyndham stopped people from transferring points.  I took a huge gamble and paid other owners to transfer points into my account.  I could not stop the point from being pushed forward even when I wanted to.  It was the system that did that on its own.  It then caused Wyndham to wonder why I have many more points in my account then I should have.  Almost 6 months later and my accounts are still locked.  I have lost out on shortening my reservations, splitting them, discounts, upgrades, canceling reservations, booking new reservations and on September 30 and December 31 points expiring.  There does not seem to be an end in sight.



Am1, I put that in my 9b. bullet point.  Although I had not taken into consideration the cumulative effect of transferred points from back in the day when owners could transfer to other owners (that was before my time). I wonder if suspending those of you with larger amount of points so that the points are not able to be used is somehow keeping them with the guidelines of the trust.  Since there has been no transparency about what they are doing or why - one can only speculate. We see different rules applied to different people. Could they be saying -- we need to remove x amount of points from circulation and by suspending your account (and few other choice ones) they've met that requirement?


----------



## Jan M.

In 12 more days the 6th month of the freeze will begin. Some people had their hopes dashed that their situations might be resolved with the New Year and their wait continues. I don't care if the owners who are frozen or still partially frozen are 100% in the right, 100% in the wrong or some combination of right and wrong; the length of time was unacceptable several months ago and has progressed to totally outrageous. They are understandably very concerned and distressed over this.


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## Sandi Bo

Jan M. said:


> In 12 more days the 6th month of the freeze will begin. Some people had their hopes dashed that their situations might be resolved with the New Year and their wait continues. I don't care if the owners who are frozen or still partially frozen are 100% in the right, 100% in the wrong or some combination of right and wrong; the length of time was unacceptable several months ago and has progressed to totally outrageous. They are understandably very concerned and distressed over this.



Wasn't the original estimate (for resolution) 5 months ago that it would be 2 weeks?  And at that time -- 2 weeks seemed unacceptable.


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## wjappraise

Jan M. said:


> In 12 more days the 6th month of the freeze will begin. Some people had their hopes dashed that their situations might be resolved with the New Year and their wait continues. I don't care if the owners who are frozen or still partially frozen are 100% in the right, 100% in the wrong or some combination of right and wrong; the length of time was unacceptable several months ago and has progressed to totally outrageous. They are understandably very concerned and distressed over this.



It's the complete lack of communication that is particularly galling.  No return phone calls or emails.  Nothing.  My last live person response with any update was September 27, 2016.  I believe it to be an obscene coupling of ignorance (incompetence) and arrogance.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> It's the complete lack of communication that is particularly galling.  No return phone calls or emails.  Nothing.  My last live person response with any update was September 27, 2016.  I believe it to be an obscene coupling of ignorance (incompetence) and arrogance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Seems they just do not care about us the owners.  Now that the holidays are over there are even less excuses.


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## raygo123

am1 said:


> Seems they just do not care about us the owners.  Now that the holidays are over there are even less excuses.


I think you're right.  Until otherwise proven, you a no good mega renter that stole points.  And are going to make your life miserable.

It doesn't matter if it a Wyndham problem, it's your problem now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## am1

Anything in the directory that states a owner/guest name cannot be changed on a reservation after the day of check in?  Yesterday I leave a voicemail before 5pm and never got a response back.  Now Wyndham does not want to add the guest name.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Anything in the directory that states a owner/guest name cannot be changed on a reservation after the day of check in?  Yesterday I leave a voicemail before 5pm and never got a response back.  Now Wyndham does not want to add the guest name.



There is nothing in book that states it cannot be added after check in date.  I have done it before, but needed a relatively experienced VC on the phone to do it.  My first VC said it could not be done, I hesitated, and he said, "Do you want me to check with my supervisor?"  I said "yes" and we got it done.


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## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Anything in the directory that states a owner/guest name cannot be changed on a reservation after the day of check in?  Yesterday I leave a voicemail before 5pm and never got a response back.  Now Wyndham does not want to add the guest name.



I have been able to add a guest name after the day of check in, but was told it was "outside of policy" and that guest names have to be added by the check-in day. I do not recall seeing that in the directory anywhere. Might have to call and ask for supervisor or Owner Resolution.


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## am1

Once again no call back before they closed today with multiple messages left before 5pm.  About 30 straight calls went to their voicemail.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Once again no call back before they closed today with multiple messages left before 5pm.  About 30 straight calls went to their voicemail.



Adam - I would suggest that you simply call the regular line, and ask for what you need done.  While the direction has been given for impacted owners to only call the 877- number, you are correct that this goes unanswered and emails go without response.  When I have called into the regular lines, I have been able to do what I need to do.  A few times, the VC has said she could not do anything on my account.  I have told her that the other phone number is unanswered and I need to have this done, and asked her to get supervisor approval if needed.  That has worked for me. . . so far.


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## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> Adam - I would suggest that you simply call the regular line, and ask for what you need done.  While the direction has been given for impacted owners to only call the 877- number, you are correct that this goes unanswered and emails go without response.  When I have called into the regular lines, I have been able to do what I need to do.  A few times, the VC has said she could not do anything on my account.  I have told her that the other phone number is unanswered and I need to have this done, and asked her to get supervisor approval if needed.  That has worked for me. . . so far.



Is your account still frozen too? I thought yours had online access restored.

I only call the regular VIP line now since the other one is never answered. It may be that Adam can't do this because his online access has not been restored.

However it may be to Adam's advantage, if he is building his case, to have documented the numerous times he has followed the procedure outlined by Wyndham and not had required actions taken as a result. I am sure he is also following up with emails to the address provided that indicate when he has called and left messages.


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## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> Is your account still frozen too? I thought yours had online access restored.
> 
> I only call the regular VIP line now since the other one is never answered. It may be that Adam can't do this because his online access has not been restored.
> 
> However it may be to Adam's advantage, if he is building his case, to have documented the numerous times he has followed the procedure outlined by Wyndham and not had required actions taken as a result. I am sure he is also following up with emails to the address provided that indicate when he has called and left messages.



Thanks, Eric.  I have access to the online features.  However, when I was granted this, I specifically asked about how I should handle ARP and other VC oriented tasks.  I was told to call into the 877- number, that I would not be permitted to call the regular phone number.  After getting no response from that, I have used the tactic I noted earlier, and that seems to work.  I also have the "required compliance direction" in an email, so I would assume Adam has the same, and that could be very helpful at a time when an outside authority is asked to look at the conflict, and the clear lack of due process in Wyndham's actions.  Adam being limited to only use an email and a devoted phone number that goes unanswered would seem to markedly weaken Wyndham's ability to defend its actions in a dispute/lawsuit if it comes to that.


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> Adam - I would suggest that you simply call the regular line, and ask for what you need done.  While the direction has been given for impacted owners to only call the 877- number, you are correct that this goes unanswered and emails go without response.  When I have called into the regular lines, I have been able to do what I need to do.  A few times, the VC has said she could not do anything on my account.  I have told her that the other phone number is unanswered and I need to have this done, and asked her to get supervisor approval if needed.  That has worked for me. . . so far.




That may work but I am trying my best to follow the rules Wyndham has set up.  Even if Wyndham is not.  Forget about the callback in an hour if before 5pm or between 9 - 11 the next morning if after 5pm.  Forget any replies to e-mails about anything.  Time sensitive issues or not does not matter either.  The people answering the phone on the most part are great but limited to what they can do.

An example has been that even within 15 days of check in I am still not able to add a guest name but I still receive e-mails I have overlapping reservations subject to cancellation.  Back in September e-mail updates were sent out announcing how far out guest names could be added and then it was just pot luck finding out speaking with an agent.  

On January 2, my 2019 points were added which are not part of this issue at all but I am still not allowed to use them.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> That may work but I am trying my best to follow the rules Wyndham has set up.  Even if Wyndham is not.



Then, as BigRob noted earlier, it is imperative that you keep accurate records of the failure on Wyndham's part to respond to the valid requests you have made to the phone number and email address they have required that you use.  His notation of each time you leave a message, to follow up with an email will provide a digital "paper trail" that will go a long way toward validating your claims.  

Please do not take this the wrong way, but sometimes your approach here gives a perception of you being uncooperative with Wyndham, or being unrealistic in your expectations of what Wyndham will need to do to make you satisfied.  I would strongly suggest as I have been told in the past, "be the most reasonable person in the room" when there is a conflict to be resolved.  I also understand the cathartic benefit of "venting" that this blog provides, so if you are simply blowing off steam, we understand.


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## ace2000

wjappraise said:


> Then, as BigRob noted earlier, it is imperative that you keep accurate records of the failure on Wyndham's part to respond to the valid requests you have made to the phone number and email address they have required that you use.  His notation of each time you leave a message, to follow up with an email will provide a digital "paper trail" that will go a long way toward validating your claims.
> 
> Please do not take this the wrong way, but sometimes your approach here gives a perception of you being uncooperative with Wyndham, or being unrealistic in your expectations of what Wyndham will need to do to make you satisfied.  I would strongly suggest as I have been told in the past, "be the most reasonable person in the room" when there is a conflict to be resolved.  I also understand the cathartic benefit of "venting" that this blog provides, so if you are simply blowing off steam, we understand.



From an occasional casual observer of this thread, very well said...


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## clifffaith

"Be the most reasonable person in the room when there is a conflict to be resolved"  -- I love that!


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## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> Please do not take this the wrong way, but sometimes your approach here gives a perception of you being uncooperative with Wyndham, or being unrealistic in your expectations of what Wyndham will need to do to make you satisfied.  I would strongly suggest as I have been told in the past, "be the most reasonable person in the room" when there is a conflict to be resolved.  I also understand the cathartic benefit of "venting" that this blog provides, so if you are simply blowing off steam, we understand.



This is good advice. I have felt the same thing when reading some of the posts.


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## clifffaith

I wondered when/if the point accounting problems at Wyndham would manifest themselves at Worldmark by Wyndham.  Earlier today this was posted on the Worldmark Facebook group:  "Check your credit balances, my renewal month is January and I was posted double! When I called, they said there had been some issues, and that some folks did not receive their credits at all."


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## am1

I follow up phone calls that go unanswered and unreturned with e-mails that Wyndham does not respond to.  Everything is well documented as it looks like that will be needed going forward.  

I am very co-operative but stand up for my ownership and rights.  It may be the culture of timeshares ownership overall where most owners do not do that which makes me stand out.


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## uscav8r

clifffaith said:


> I wondered when/if the point accounting problems at Wyndham would manifest themselves at Worldmark by Wyndham.  Earlier today this was posted on the Worldmark Facebook group:  "Check your credit balances, my renewal month is January and I was posted double! When I called, they said there had been some issues, and that some folks did not receive their credits at all."



They are two completely separate IT systems with completely different accounting rules. They only share the commonality that they are points systems. And an apparently lacking Wyndham IT department. But the algorithms and code would be incompatible between the two. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## debrinkleyusa

ronparise said:


> The parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences


Ron,
  I am glad you reached a "satisfactory" solution.  I too would like to be in that situation but do not know how to get Wyndham to start communicating again with me.  They are not responding to my messages.  Can you share a point of contact / email / phone number?  I have online access to my account but was told I could not sell any of my contracts to someone else.  That does not seem fair, or legal. 
Thanks,
DB


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## ronparise

debrinkleyusa said:


> Ron,
> I am glad you reached a "satisfactory" solution.  I too would like to be in that situation but do not know how to get Wyndham to start communicating again with me.  They are not responding to my messages.  Can you share a point of contact / email / phone number?  I have online access to my account but was told I could not sell any of my contracts to someone else.  That does not seem fair, or legal.
> Thanks,
> DB



heres an email  I got on Aug 23, 2016 from MBX-AcctInfo@wyn.com

*Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at 877-298-2027 if you have any questions.*

When I left a message on that phone line or sent an email to that email address ...I got an answer

and when a phone meeting was scheduled, They called


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## Jan M.




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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> heres an email  I got on Aug 23, 2016 from MBX-AcctInfo@wyn.com
> 
> *Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account. We are currently in the process of reviewing and reconciling your account. During this period, your account is suspended. Please contact us at 877-298-2027 if you have any questions.*
> 
> When I left a message on that phone line or sent an email to that email address ...I got an answer
> 
> and when a phone meeting was scheduled, They called



That's the current problem, Ron.  The rest of us don't get a return call or email.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> That's the current problem, Ron.  The rest of us don't get a return call or email.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




but you did get some action.. you can use your account and take your group on vacation.. What more is there to talk about? 

Sure I get regular calls and emails and even face to face meetings but I am still locked out of my accounts... I would much prefer to be in your position... (not Adam's)


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> but you did get some action.. you can use your account and take your group on vacation.. What more is there to talk about?
> Sure I get regular calls and emails and even face to face meetings but I am still locked out of my accounts... I would much prefer to be in your position... (not Adam's)


Good point, Ron.  While it is better to be in operation, it is the lingering unease of an unresolved situation that hangs over the rest of us.  When the first communication (interview) gathered data from us and provided us with an anticipated time frame of "two weeks or less" to resolve the matter; now we are FIVE MONTHS into it, with absolutely no updates since September or October for most impacted owners.  

And, I would guess that you have stopped paying maintenance fees long ago; we are still expected to pony up the cash on the 9th of each month.  Which means I will be getting an invoice tomorrow.

I guess it is not a choice of "who has it worse?" but rather "why so long, and why no updates?"  NONE.  ZILCH.  NADA.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Good point, Ron.  While it is better to be in operation, it is the lingering unease of an unresolved situation that hangs over the rest of us.  When the first communication (interview) gathered data from us and provided us with an anticipated time frame of "two weeks or less" to resolve the matter; now we are FIVE MONTHS into it, with absolutely no updates since September or October for most impacted owners.
> 
> And, I would guess that you have stopped paying maintenance fees long ago; we are still expected to pony up the cash on the 9th of each month.  Which means I will be getting an invoice tomorrow.
> 
> I guess it is not a choice of "who has it worse?" but rather "why so long, and why no updates?"  NONE.  ZILCH.  NADA.




I think they are dealing with us in groups ie  similar cases get treated similarly and at the same time.. 
Im betting that they are dealing with one group at a time, and when they finish with one they move on to another.  Im not saying Im special but do think that the group Im part of took them a lot longer to resolve than they expected. 

Sorry


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> I think they are dealing with us in groups ie  similar cases get treated similarly and at the same time..
> Im betting that they are dealing with one group at a time, and when they finish with one they move on to another.  Im not saying Im special but do think that the group Im part of took them a lot longer to resolve than they expected.
> 
> Sorry



Ron you don't owe any of us an apology.  We appreciate your posts and your perspectives.  

What we don't appreciate is Wyndham's glacier like speed.  Why can't they deal with all groups at the same time?  Or if they can't why aren't they respectful enough to reach out to each impacted owner once a week with an update?   Their treatment of us speaks to their contempt for all owners.  We are simply a money source.  Nothing more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1

wjappraise said:


> Ron you don't owe any of us an apology.  We appreciate your posts and your perspectives.
> 
> What we don't appreciate is Wyndham's glacier like speed.  Why can't they deal with all groups at the same time?  Or if they can't why aren't they respectful enough to reach out to each impacted owner once a week with an update?   Their treatment of us speaks to their contempt for all owners.  We are simply a money source.  Nothing more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Very true.  I have suffered many thousands of dollars in real damages because of this and stuff before this.


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## wjappraise

Quote:  I will say that with absolute certainty Wyndham's system is not the only system with the problem of unlimited manufacture point of points. Alas I have said too much already.  End quote
TeleiosMan,

Uh oh, say it isn't so.  What other system?


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## TeleiosMan

wjappraise said:


> Quote:  I will say that with absolute certainty Wyndham's system is not the only system with the problem of unlimited manufacture point of points. Alas I have said too much already.  End quote
> TeleiosMan,
> 
> Uh oh, say it isn't so.  What other system?



I had a change of heart and deleted my post, but not before you could respond to it. <Another system> had a similar issue last year that caused a bit of inconvenience and heartburn to what I would suppose is a miniscule number owners.  They did not outright freeze accounts or invoke a de facto death penalty like they are prosecuting against am1, but certain account functionality was limited during the time that they were addressing this IT issue.  I will not speak more on this topic. Thank you.


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## wjappraise

TeleiosMan said:


> I will not speak more on this topic. Thank you.



I can respect that.  Thank you for sharing what you did.  Misery loves company.


----------



## am1

Are any other owners able to add guest names to reservations after the day of check in?  Wyndham says that is no longer possible.  Frustrating when I call and leave messages asking for a call back and that does not happen.  Then when I get through they tell me it is too late but no consideration that it was Wyndham who did not contact me in time to get it done.  

I have provided an international number and have not recieved a call back.  While speaking to an owner care rep from a us line I asked about international numbers and told it was possible.  I provided the number with country code and was suppose to get a test call right away. No call and no follow up contact by e-mail or us number.  Does not seem right Wyndham cannot call international numbers.  I can call from a us number but call back there are a lot tougher. I do not have all day to wait around for call or more time then not, no call at all.


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## tschwa2

What were the terms you were offered?


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## am1

Nothing concrete was ever offered.


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## TeleiosMan

am1 said:


> Nothing concrete was ever offered.



Something else to ponder hypothetically. What if the "offer" (demand) for a normalised account is tens of thousands of dollars in back fees for the manufactured points that were "stolen" from Wyndham?


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## raygo123

TeleiosMan said:


> Something else to ponder hypothetically. What if the "offer" (demand) for a normalised account is tens of thousands of dollars in back fees for the manufactured points that were "stolen" from Wyndham?


There is big difference between the two.
One is negotiable.  Since no "or" contained in your post, I'm assuming they are one in the same.  But I thought the other option might be or just leave.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## jumoe

am1 said:


> Are any other owners able to add guest names to reservations after the day of check in?  Wyndham says that is no longer possible.


Yes just did it on Sunday.   I called OC to add a guest name for a reservation that started the previous day. She said it was too late.  I mentioned that I had been able to do this previously.  She put me on hold and said she would try.  After a bit of a hold, she came back and said that she had called the resort and confirmed they still had the reservation intact.  She then added the guest name, sent the email to the resort, put me on hold again, and called the resort again to make sure they received the update.  Took her about 40 minutes, but she did get it accomplished.


----------



## am1

jumoe said:


> Yes just did it on Sunday.   I called OC to add a guest name for a reservation that started the previous day. She said it was too late.  I mentioned that I had been able to do this previously.  She put me on hold and said she would try.  After a bit of a hold, she came back and said that she had called the resort and confirmed they still had the reservation intact.  She then added the guest name, sent the email to the resort, put me on hold again, and called the resort again to make sure they received the update.  Took her about 40 minutes, but she did get it accomplished.



Thanks.  I was told once again that it is not possible anymore.  Even if it was Wyndham who did not call me back in a timely manner to get it done as promised on the recording.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Thanks.  I was told once again that it is not possible anymore.  Even if it was Wyndham who did not call me back in a timely manner to get it done as promised on the recording.



I believe it is one of those things that "officially" cannot be done, or at least is not listed as an allowed feature.  So, if the VC is newer, or does not wish to be helpful, the default answer is "it can't be done."  If the VC is helpful, and the account is not flagged or blacklisted, then help might well be offered.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> I believe it is one of those things that "officially" cannot be done, or at least is not listed as an allowed feature.  So, if the VC is newer, or does not wish to be helpful, the default answer is "it can't be done."  If the VC is helpful, and the account is not flagged or blacklisted, then help might well be offered.



Maybe true but no one can tell me where it says a guest name cannot be added to a reservation that has already started.  Started in accordance to the local time at the resort or club wyndham est?  That makes a big difference in why they do not allow it. 

Even so this is all caused by Wyndham not answering my calls, returning my voicemails or allowing me access to my online account so I can do it myself.  Does not seem like a hill Wyndham wants to die on unless they are just out to harass us do not care.


----------



## Sandi Bo

And,  sadly the only reason they wouldn't be able to do it would be because their systems don't support the ability to do so. 

Systems,  systems,  systems.  Seems beyond reasonable to me to let a room sit because they can't figure out how to add a guest.


----------



## wjappraise

Sandi Bo said:


> And,  sadly the only reason they wouldn't be able to do it would be because their systems don't support the ability to do so.
> 
> Systems,  systems,  systems.  Seems beyond reasonable to me to let a room sit because they can't figure out how to add a guest.



And that is the crux of the problem with Wyndham from my vantage point; they are geared to take advantage of buyers, and then owners.  And they devote precious little resources to ensuring that said owners (cash sources) have a viable computer-based product.  When in doubt, corporate decision makers look to limit and impede owners using their product.  I cannot think of one change made in the past 10 years that has benefited existing owners, all have diminished the rights of ownership.  I thought the cancelled points coming back as regular use points would be the notable exception, but that has been so mangled by the IT department, no sane thinker can claim that this has benefited owners.


----------



## raygo123

What I am wondering is who is footing the bill?  Is it wyndham corporate, or since this is a CWA trust issue, are we paying for this mess?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

raygo123 said:


> What I am wondering is who is footing the bill?  Is it wyndham corporate, or since this is a CWA trust issue, are we paying for this mess?



Oh, I am quite certain we are paying for this.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Oh, I am quite certain we are paying for this.



Paying for what?  The lawyers and other staff working on this are on Wyndhams payroll.  are there other expenses??

Im sure if you sued them they would hire an outside attorney with the trusts money (our money) but until then I think dealing with this mess is part of managing the trust

Of course if the program fee goes up next year you will know why.


----------



## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> What I am wondering is who is footing the bill?  Is it wyndham corporate, or since this is a CWA trust issue, are we paying for this mess?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



none of this has anything to do with the CWA trust


----------



## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> none of this has anything to do with the CWA trust


Yes your right.  Wyndham plus that's all the points right? of which CWA is part.so I wonder if everyone is paying, or Wyndham?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Yes your right.  Wyndham plus that's all the points right? of which CWA is part.so I wonder if everyone is paying, or Wyndham?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



From what I've been able to understand, it has nothing to do with CWP, either.  This isn't a matter of the club-wide inventory being out of balance, it has to do with points being allocated that don't exist in inventory, and I'm sure Wyndham is paying full board on the costs associated with these audits.


----------



## ronparise

remember the wording of the  email that started this mess

"Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account..."


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> remember the wording of the  email that started this mess
> 
> "Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, we have identified unusual activity on your account..."



Yep, but it isn't a club problem AFAIK, the club just happens to be the victims of the problem.


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> Yep, but it isn't a club problem AFAIK, the club just happens to be the victims of the problem.



I agree; that's what  I took from the email I quoted.


----------



## CO skier

gottashiner said:


> I filed a claim with the Forida Dept of Business and Professional Regulations.  Waiting to see what happens


It has been a month.  Any update?


----------



## jumoe

Regarding adding a guest certificate after the reservation has started... I called again last this afternoon to change the guest name for a reservation that started yesterday.  VC made the change today in less than 5 min.  Said they would send an email and left it up to me to call the resort.


----------



## gottashiner

CO skier said:


> It has been a month.  Any update?


I have heard nothing after I received an email that they received my information.  Compared to other owners, my problems were small.  I will call them this week and see wht they say.  Seems like the owners with problems should each file a complaint.


----------



## Joe33426

Ty1on said:


> Yep, but it isn't a club problem AFAIK, the club just happens to be the victims of the problem.



Yeah, the club could be the victim, but from what I read in the management agreement, the Trust pays the plan manager for *all costs and expenses* arising from *operation and maintenance* of Manager's reservation system... The manager owns the reservation system, but the trust pays all the costs associated with running the system plus a reasonable profit.






I'm sure we're paying for the points debacle in our program fee (not only the costs but also some profit).  

I'm wondering how WYN keeps all of this straight...  Not only is WYN the developer, largest points owner, resort manager (in most instances), plan manager, and I'm wondering if WYN is the trustee too.   I'm not surprised that these extra points were generated and nobody noticed for quite some time.  It's like the fox guarding the hen house...


----------



## wjappraise

Joe33426 said:


> I'm sure we're paying for the points debacle in our program fee (not only the costs but also some profit).
> 
> I'm wondering how WYN keeps all of this straight...  Not only is WYN the developer, largest points owner, resort manager (in most instances), plan manager, and I'm wondering if WYN is the trustee too.   I'm not surprised that these extra points were generated and nobody noticed for quite some time.  It's like the fox guarding the hen house...



When I had my "interview" back in August I was told the cost would be borne as part of the management fees, which are part of the maintenance fees we all pay.  

Good news, though, based upon my sample, there is absolutely NO COST whatsoever involved in responding to the emails sent to the special email address for the impacted owners.  Tongue firmly in cheek.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> When I had my "interview" back in August I was told the cost would be borne as part of the management fees, which are part of the maintenance fees we all pay.
> 
> Good news, though, based upon my sample, there is absolutely NO COST whatsoever involved in responding to the emails sent to the special email address for the impacted owners.  Tongue firmly in cheek.



I have sent hundreds with only a few responses.  At a certain point it may be cheaper to respond to an e-mail then have to delete the 10 follow up e-mails.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> When I had my "interview" back in August I was told the cost would be borne as part of the management fees, which are part of the maintenance fees we all pay.
> 
> Good news, though, based upon my sample, there is absolutely NO COST whatsoever involved in responding to the emails sent to the special email address for the impacted owners.  Tongue firmly in cheek.




paid out of the management fees we are already paying?  or are you suggesting that wyndham will ask for an additional payment from the trust


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Sometimes I miss that thread; it's standing at 2,814 Replies/222,445 Views.  And I've moved on from the pens to trying to put together a set of Fiestaware dishes.





T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Wow - 2814 replies and 222,445 views
> 
> I do not think I had read or joined TUG  as I have no memory of it  - when did it " start "
> 
> I thought 88,000 and growing might be much closer to a  "record "
> 
> .





SueDonJ said:


> Started Oct '08 and active through Jul '11, in the Marriott forum.  It leads that forum in number of Views but comes in second for Replies.
> 
> You can find out all the Replies/Views stats by forum, by going to each forum's home page and clicking on either "Replies" or "Views" in the yellow task bar.  There are a few other sort commands as well.  If you test it, you can easily get back to the forum's default setting by clicking on "Last Message" all the way on the right.





wjappraise said:


> It is a record, for the Wyndham forum.  Just not for the entire TUG site.



It would seem that with the new Xenforo software, it will still be possible to eclipse those old threads in posts, but a post will never again get that many views. The new software only counts unique views where vBulletin counted all views. So the number of views in this thread are rather high because it started before migration to Xenforo, but once migrated the view counts slowed considerably.


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> paid out of the management fees we are already paying?  or are you suggesting that wyndham will ask for an additional payment from the trust



As it is part of what they consider "managing" the accounts, this is an open tab.  Much like an attorney on retainer, there are prepayments made, but there is a reconciliation that impacts the next year's budget.  Bottom line, Wyndham's IT problems, are our costs.  And our headaches.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> As it is part of what they consider "managing" the accounts, this is an open tab.  Much like an attorney on retainer, there are prepayments made, but there is a reconciliation that impacts the next year's budget.  Bottom line, Wyndham's IT problems, are our costs.  And our headaches.



Certainly every penny Wyndham has comes from their customers.  In this case you and me

But I think once we pay the program fee end once Wyndham takes their management fee that money is wyndhams

Of course we pay to use the reservations system but the system itself is wyndhams


It's like the car I rented recently. You could argue that I  paid the guy behind the counter and the guy that washed the car.  But I would say I didn't. I paid a fee to use the car Hertz paid those salaries


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> You could argue that I  paid the guy behind the counter and the guy that washed the car.  But I would say I didn't. I paid a fee to use the car Hertz paid those salaries



True, but the car rental place works in a true market-driven economy.  If the car rental company has lazy IT guidelines and they end up giving away reservations, this will either drive them out of business, or require that they fix their IT problem to stay competitive.  Now, if they are instead a whole owned company, say a military owned car rental company, and they have the same lazy guidelines, the military picks up the tab, and the net effect is that the military and its "owners" (us) pay for the poor management.  Once we became owners, Wyndham timeshare division is no longer in a true market-driven economy.  And that is part of the problem, they have little incentive to quickly and efficiently fix the problem when the unknowing owners simply have to pick up the tab.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> True, but the car rental place works in a true market-driven economy.  If the car rental company has lazy IT guidelines and they end up giving away reservations, this will either drive them out of business, or require that they fix their IT problem to stay competitive.  Now, if they are instead a whole owned company, say a military owned car rental company, and they have the same lazy guidelines, the military picks up the tab, and the net effect is that the military and its "owners" (us) pay for the poor management.  Once we became owners, Wyndham timeshare division is no longer in a true market-driven economy.  And that is part of the problem, they have little incentive to quickly and efficiently fix the problem when the unknowing owners simply have to pick up the tab.



I disagree, but it really doesn't matter

At the end of the day one or the other of wyndhams constituencies (or both) will be hurt.  it will cost us customers a little more or Wyndhams stock holders will make a little less


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> I disagree, but it really doesn't matter
> 
> At the end of the day one or the other of wyndhams constituencies (or both) will be hurt.  it will cost us customers a little more or Wyndhams stock holders will make a little less



Good point, Ron.  Either way, whatever money is being spent has not resolved a "less than two week" problem in five months.  Ridiculous.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> but you did get some action.. you can use your account and take your group on vacation.. What more is there to talk about?
> 
> Sure I get regular calls and emails and even face to face meetings but I am still locked out of my accounts... I would much prefer to be in your position... (not Adam's)



Ron did I misread your earlier post where you stated that you and Wyndham had mutually resolved your problems because I read here that you are still locked out. Are you resolved or not resolved?


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron did I misread your earlier post where you stated that you and Wyndham had mutually resolved your problems because I read here that you are still locked out. Are you resolved or not resolved?



we have resolved our differences


----------



## tschwa2

I know Ron can't comment on this but the resolution could have been that his account remain locked for an agreed amount of time which could be temporary or it could be forever.


----------



## raygo123

happyhopian said:


> Ron did I misread your earlier post where you stated that you and Wyndham had mutually resolved your problems because I read here that you are still locked out. Are you resolved or not resolved?


The question was previously asked and answered.  It's back a couple hundred posts ago.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## am1

Guest names can only be added up until January 31.  Overlapping reservations are subject to cancellation within 15 days of check in.  Does not seem right that Wyndham plays these games.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Guest names can only be added up until January 31.  Overlapping reservations are subject to cancellation within 15 days of check in.  Does not seem right that Wyndham plays these games.



Can you make new reservations, even via phone call?  Or do anything online? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

Well, as of yesterday, I have started the SIXTH month of my suspended account status, albeit I now have some "thawed" features, I still cannot add more contracts, or sell contracts from my account.  Nor can I do Credit Pool, or a few other items.  

All of this begs the question:  "Has ANYONE who was suspended been FULLY reconciled and restored to full function?"  Or all we all either where I am, or where Adam (am1) is, or when Ron is?  In other words, either up in the air or out of the game.


----------



## jediinprescott

OK fellow problem kids. I think my case has finally been "resolved". For the past 5 weeks my account has been audited by a person in owner care. As I mentioned in earlier posts I was not getting anywhere as many of you have experienced. Finally I was contacted by a young man who said he was working my account and would keep me in the loop as he progressed. As I expected 1) I had more points in my account than I ever owned at the end of the year and 2) I had over spent my 2016 account as I was using the point summary as my reference. Obviously I stopped doing any bookings in late October because I ( and Wyndham) really had no clue on how many points I really had available. In spite of calls and discussions with owner care...nobody really knew. I asked for an audit early on to try to resolve and they also reported an erroneous figure which was way different from the point summary. Very frustrating.
Fast forward to last week...the huge 2016 excess had disappeared on Dec 31. Great...now we deal with the overspent issue. You all will not be surprised to hear that although Wyndham acknowledges they have a problem and don't know what it is or how to fix it, they are not taking ANY responsibility . They were not willing to do any negotiation and advised that they will be taking action to recover the amount of overspent points. I will say they were gracious enough to allow me to decide where the recovering points would come from 2017 or 2018. I elected un-yet booked 2017 points for most with the balance from 2018. As much as I argued they kept using the bank erroneous deposit and subsequent take back. In the end I don't think I lost much except for the stress and aggravation factor. I was not given a "gag" order and would be willing to answer any Tugger questions. I was told the case is closed. By the way I have never credit pooled, so I don't think that's the problem. I have cancelled/rebooked numerous times, so I suspect the computer program is having a problem in that area. My advice to all is keep a manual point status until things improve.
Feeling totally melted,
Mike


----------



## ecwinch

jediinprescott said:


> OK fellow problem kids. I think my case has finally been "resolved". For the past 5 weeks my account has been audited by a person in owner care. As I mentioned in earlier posts I was not getting anywhere as many of you have experienced. Finally I was contacted by a young man who said he was working my account and would keep me in the loop as he progressed. As I expected 1) I had more points in my account than I ever owned at the end of the year and 2) I had over spent my 2016 account as I was using the point summary as my reference. Obviously I stopped doing any bookings in late October because I ( and Wyndham) really had no clue on how many points I really had available. In spite of calls and discussions with owner care...nobody really knew. I asked for an audit early on to try to resolve and they also reported an erroneous figure which was way different from the point summary. Very frustrating.
> Fast forward to last week...the huge 2016 excess had disappeared on Dec 31. Great...now we deal with the overspent issue. You all will not be surprised to hear that although Wyndham acknowledges they have a problem and don't know what it is or how to fix it, they are not taking ANY responsibility . They were not willing to do any negotiation and advised that they will be taking action to recover the amount of overspent points. I will say they were gracious enough to allow me to decide where the recovering points would come from 2017 or 2018. I elected un-yet booked 2017 points for most with the balance from 2018. As much as I argued they kept using the bank erroneous deposit and subsequent take back. In the end I don't think I lost much except for the stress and aggravation factor. I was not given a "gag" order and would be willing to answer any Tugger questions. I was told the case is closed. By the way I have never credit pooled, so I don't think that's the problem. I have cancelled/rebooked numerous times, so I suspect the computer program is having a problem in that area. My advice to all is keep a manual point status until things improve.
> Feeling totally melted,
> Mike



Mike - thanks for that report.

Were they able to "prove" to your satisfaction the amount they are clawing back from your acct?


----------



## wjappraise

jediinprescott said:


> You all will not be surprised to hear that although Wyndham acknowledges they have a problem and don't know what it is or how to fix it, they are not taking ANY responsibility . They were not willing to do any negotiation and advised that they will be taking action to recover the amount of overspent points.



Thanks, Mike. 

I echo Eric's concern.  Given the fact that THEIR system of counting points is clearly flawed, is it really advisable to accept their final tally?  This sounds more like a "shakedown" than a reconciliation.  Maybe some of this needs to play out in a court room.  Or at least with proper representation.


----------



## ace2000

wjappraise said:


> Thanks, Mike.
> 
> I echo Eric's concern.  Given the fact that THEIR system of counting points is clearly flawed, is it really advisable to accept their final tally?  This sounds more like a "shakedown" than a reconciliation.  Maybe some of this needs to play out in a court room.  Or at least with proper representation.



So far, those threats, which have been repeated over and over again thoughout this thread, doesn't appear to have Wyndham trembling in fear right now.  

But, I wish you well.


----------



## jediinprescott

ecwinch said:


> Mike - thanks for that report.
> 
> Where they able to "prove" to your satisfaction the amount they are clawing back from your acct?


Eric
Best I can determine they are pretty accurate in determining how much I overspent. I was able to reconstruct most of what was used by me and renters. Once I did that I really had no significant argument other than I was frozen for so long...I actually did use the overspent points. Better record keeping until they fix the root problem.
Mike


----------



## Bigrob

jediinprescott said:


> Eric
> Best I can determine they are pretty accurate in determining how much I overspent. I was able to reconstruct most of what was used by me and renters. Once I did that I really had no significant argument other than I was frozen for so long...I actually did use the overspent points. Better record keeping until they fix the root problem.
> Mike



At the very least I believe you would have an argument regarding the use of the "overspent" points - as they were showing in your account with an expiration that may have caused you to use them in a less than ideal manner rather than let them expire.  The "erroneous bank statement" argument is not directly analogous, because the "extra" funds in the bank account don't come with an expiration date, and all the dollar bills are the same.

The combination of being over-charged for guest confirmations while you were locked out of online access, plus the missed opportunity to use your points and ARP for a long period of time, along with the aforementioned issue, to me would be grounds for a substantially different settlement. 

Nonetheless, I am glad to hear that someone has gotten through the process and is fully restored/melted. Congratulations on that, I'm sure it's a weight off of your shoulders.


----------



## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> At the very least I believe you would have an argument regarding the use of the "overspent" points - as they were showing in your account with an expiration that may have caused you to use them in a less than ideal manner rather than let them expire.  The "erroneous bank statement" argument is not directly analogous, because the "extra" funds in the bank account don't come with an expiration date, and all the dollar bills are the same.
> 
> The combination of being over-charged for guest confirmations while you were locked out of online access, plus the missed opportunity to use your points and ARP for a long period of time, along with the aforementioned issue, to me would be grounds for a substantially different settlement.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am glad to hear that someone has gotten through the process and is fully restored/melted. Congratulations on that, I'm sure it's a weight off of your shoulders.




make whatever argument you can, but remember until you and  wyndham agree, nothing will happen.


----------



## jediinprescott

Bigrob said:


> At the very least I believe you would have an argument regarding the use of the "overspent" points - as they were showing in your account with an expiration that may have caused you to use them in a less than ideal manner rather than let them expire.  The "erroneous bank statement" argument is not directly analogous, because the "extra" funds in the bank account don't come with an expiration date, and all the dollar bills are the same.
> 
> The combination of being over-charged for guest confirmations while you were locked out of online access, plus the missed opportunity to use your points and ARP for a long period of time, along with the aforementioned issue, to me would be grounds for a substantially different settlement.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am glad to hear that someone has gotten through the process and is fully restored/melted. Congratulations on that, I'm sure it's a weight off of your shoulders.


Bigrob
For what it's worth, I was never charged for guest certs as apparently some others were. I think I still had some available. Also I had already made most of the reservations for the year when the freeze hit. My only real issues were only being able to add guest certs in 15 day increments which was eventually lifted and not being able to cnx/rebook. Probably cost me some points which apparently I didn't really have anyway. 
Mike


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> At the very least I believe you would have an argument regarding the use of the "overspent" points - as they were showing in your account with an expiration that may have caused you to use them in a less than ideal manner rather than let them expire.  The "erroneous bank statement" argument is not directly analogous, because the "extra" funds in the bank account don't come with an expiration date, and all the dollar bills are the same.
> 
> The combination of being over-charged for guest confirmations while you were locked out of online access, plus the missed opportunity to use your points and ARP for a long period of time, along with the aforementioned issue, to me would be grounds for a substantially different settlement.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am glad to hear that someone has gotten through the process and is fully restored/melted. Congratulations on that, I'm sure it's a weight off of your shoulders.



Wouldn't it also seem appropriate that Wyndham charge the "wholesale" rate for the points over used?  In other words, if I have too many points left over and turn them into maintenance fees, I am given $2.10 per 1,000 points.  Whereas, the "retail" rate I am charged for using the same points is about three times that.  Seems that would be a fair method for compensation, which means it won't likely be used.


----------



## jediinprescott

wjappraise said:


> Wouldn't it also seem appropriate that Wyndham charge the "wholesale" rate for the points over used?  In other words, if I have too many points left over and turn them into maintenance fees, I am given $2.10 per 1,000 points.  Whereas, the "retail" rate I am charged for using the same points is about three times that.  Seems that would be a fair method for compensation, which means it won't likely be used.


That sounds like a good argument, however as Ron has always said   points are points. There was no monetary exchange...only points retrieved.


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> At the very least I believe you would have an argument regarding the use of the "overspent" points - as they were showing in your account with an expiration that may have caused you to use them in a less than ideal manner rather than let them expire.  The "erroneous bank statement" argument is not directly analogous, because the "extra" funds in the bank account don't come with an expiration date, and all the dollar bills are the same.



This is the "detrimental reliance" defense - that you relied on their accounting to be correct, and should not suffer hardship due to that reliance.
I certainly would offer it up, it's not a strong hand IMHO.


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> This is the "detrimental reliance" defense - that you relied on their accounting to be correct, and should not suffer hardship due to that reliance.
> I certainly would offer it up, it's not a strong hand IMHO.



Thanks for perspective, Eric.  In your opinion, is there a strong hand to be used?  Specifically, it appears from my experience as well as others, that Wyndham really has no idea what the correct point amounts in the account should be.  For the situation that Mike outlined in his experience, it appears that Wyndham simply charted how many points he used in a given year, subtracted his contract amount, and came up with the "overage" that they charged him for.  

In my first "interview" with Wyndham way back in August, this was their approach to my account.  However, I pointed out that a had four different use years, which allowed me to roll forward points from year to year.  Additionally, when I sold some contracts, they were transferred to the new owners without current use year points, even though I had plenty in my account.  In those instances, I tried to get Wyndham to transfer the points to the new owner, and was not successful.  The selling broker then simply had me reimburse the new owners for the maintenance fees for the missing points.  In one instance, it was the current year AND the following year's points.  In essence, this meant I would have more points than contracts would show.  Couple this with several years of rolling points forward, and I could explain a sizable amount of the points overage.  Of course, I had millions more points than that, which I attributed to Wyndham's faulty IT department.  I have allowed those points to expire without using them, and I have kept screen shots on the final day of the use year to show what I surrendered.  

I guess my suspicion is that Wyndham will use their simple methodology to come up with what my current use year points are, and attempt to ignore the points accumulation my records show.  While I have used the screen shots to show what I have allowed to expire, I did not do that in prior years, when the amount of points was valid based upon the points rolling forward.  So, I have a record of the points balance for prior years, but I do not have "proof" that a screen shot would provide.  Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks


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## ecwinch

Stating the obvious, I think we are at the mercy of Wyndham.

Like the bank error scenario, it is an issue of unjust enrichment. If you received more pts than you were supposed to receive, it is difficult to make a case that Wyndham is not entitled to recover those points.

Especially if you had some inkling that there was an error in your favor. Which pretty much applies to everyone affected that is following this thread.

The best counterpoint IMHO is asking for a audit trail of the exact amount. If - as you suspect - Wyndham cannot determine exactly when the error occurred, it weakens their position.


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## jediinprescott

ecwinch said:


> Stating the obvious, I think we are at the mercy of Wyndham.
> 
> Like the bank error scenario, it is an issue of unjust enrichment. If you received more pts than you were supposed to receive, it is difficult to make a case that Wyndham is not entitled to recover those points.
> 
> Especially if you had some inkling that there was an error in your favor. Which pretty much applies to everyone affected that is following this thread.
> 
> The best counterpoint IMHO is asking for a audit trail of the exact amount. If - as you suspect - Wyndham cannot determine exactly when the error occurred, it weakens their position.


Eric
You are correct. As best as I can determine, even though the problem was created by Wyndham's pathetic accounting system, in the end I think the issue was fairly resolved to both party's satisfaction, discounting the heavy handiness and perceived threat. The aggravation factor also cannot be discounted. It could have been handled better given the status of most of the owners affected.
Mike


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## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> The best counterpoint IMHO is asking for a audit trail of the exact amount. If - as you suspect - Wyndham cannot determine exactly when the error occurred, it weakens their position.



Thanks, Eric.  I do feel better knowing that my records with an exact starting balance of my points for January 1, 2016 is accurate.  Likewise, the fact that I disclosed to Wyndham the irregularities with my account to Wyndham in January 2016 and again in March 2016 will hopefully hold some weight when they finally get around to reconciling my account.  

I also have, as BigRob has suggested, kept track of how many guest reservation fees I had to pay, and the reservations I could not cancel due to the freeze on my account, and will use that in the process.


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## am1

Seems like Wyndham just does not care about us owners.  Which owners will they target next?  Last week the agents on the phone told me that the case specialist team wanted to get ahold of me and what number they could reach me at.  They have my e-mail and contact number by the way.  I offer a time and there was no call.  No contact since.  

We as owners need to be compensated for the increase in guest charge fees, needing to use 2, 3 or more guest confirmation fees for guests instead of 1 at times, not being able to book reservations, no upgrades, not being able to cancel reservations (late august) as well as when no one answers the phone or gives a call back within the hour has advertised, stress and not knowing what is going to happen.  I have wanted to add my dad on as an owner for sometime and it would have been easy enough to do but not when they do not allow new contracts to be added to the accounts.  Nor would I when the accounts are locked and I cannot use those points.  I have been denied using my deeded rights at 13 months.  Even with all of this I am still paying thousands of dollars in fees every month.


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## foundyoubyaccident

scootr5 said:


> I believe Ron alluded to it a bit - You own a 2 million point contract, you buy 2,000,000 points, credit pool all future year points in the contract you just bought, and sell the contract with no points remaining in it for 3 years. You now own 2,000,000 points, but you have 8,000,000 points available to reserve.
> 
> It would definitely look odd at first glance when looking at account totals.




Has this been done before?  Does the new owner, know this when purchasing ?


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## Ty1on

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Has this been done before?  Does the new owner, know this when purchasing ?


Yes and yes.


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## scootr5

Ty1on said:


> Yes and yes.



_If_ they've done their due diligence.


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## raygo123

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Has this been done before?  Does the new owner, know this when purchasing ?


In fact, Ron had sold Canterbury that way.  He offered it for free with the understanding that the buyer was getting it for the cost of the yearly MF.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## foundyoubyaccident

Ty1on said:


> Yes and yes.



Well, hummph.  Who would want to buy a ts they couldn't use for 2/3 years. and pay 12k a year.

Edited:  you ansered that question.


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## raygo123

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Well, hummph.  Who would want to buy a ts they couldn't use for 2/3 years. and pay 12k a year.
> 
> Edited:  you ansered that question.


Maintainence fees! Are not $12k.  I think it was somewhere around $1200/yr.  

It more like a lay away plan.  If you want Canterbury, and can't afford $7000 to buy it

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Well, hummph.  Who would want to buy a ts they couldn't use for 2/3 years. and pay 12k a year.
> 
> Edited:  you ansered that question.


It wouldn't be $12000 a year
500000 Canterbury would be about $2000 a year

But the point so many miss is you don't have to wait 2 years to make a reservation.

I might buy a contract today that would settle in two or three months. Let's say that was a million point contract. When it settles I could credit pool 2017 2018 and 2019 points.  And then put all those points into reservations and then sell the contract.  It would settle in 3 months

So I got the benefit of 3 years of points for only 3 months of maintenance fees (plus the purchase price)

And the buyer will pay fees the rest of the year. Let's say 5 months. Then in Jan 2018 he can credit pool his 
2020 points and make a reservation

So it's not true he has to wait 2 0r 3 years

*****************************

there was a strategy with Worldmark that could be worked to accomplish the same thing, Wyndham stopped that by not allowing stripped contracts to be transferred. I have no doubt they will do the same thing with club wyndham


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## foundyoubyaccident




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## Ty1on

scootr5 said:


> _If_ they've done their due diligence.



I know in Ron's case he has been crystal clear whenever he's offered this.


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## ronparise

deleted post,


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## raygo123

He he he

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## T-Dot-Traveller

Ron's famous Canterbury " free bargain "  was IMO a great opportunity for someone who,was a few years from retirement and was willing to pay monthly MF "now " to own a 400,000 point contract with a reasonable cost per point that would be very usable at lower point Wyndham resorts for multiple weeks when retired .

FYI - this thread just past 100,000 views
Jan 27 2017 - just past the 5 month mark .


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## happyhopian

Well I need to do more research because I was told, and had it happen, that pooled points transfer with the contract. One of the contracts I purchased in August transferred over and my credit pool went up substantially. I had no idea of the reason or even the relationship as I had no reason to think this would happen. I called Wyndham OC emailed me back explaining that the points came from the purchased contract which had a pool balance and the current use year and the credit pool balance. Maybe they only had one contract or maybe this is something new and maybe the difference is where ron pointed out that he booked reservations with the points before selling the contract. Either way I am not confused as to whether credit points transfer with the sold contract.


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## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Well I need to do more research because I was told, and had it happen, that pooled points transfer with the contract. One of the contracts I purchased in August transferred over and my credit pool went up substantially. I had no idea of the reason or even the relationship as I had no reason to think this would happen. I called Wyndham OC emailed me back explaining that the points came from the purchased contract which had a pool balance and the current use year and the credit pool balance. Maybe they only had one contract or maybe this is something new and maybe the difference is where ron pointed out that he booked reservations with the points before selling the contract. Either way I am not confused as to whether credit points transfer with the sold contract.



My experience is that points associated with a contract in the credit pool transfer  to the buyer upon sale. 

Reservations on the other hand stay in the account upon sale of a contract (as long as it's not the last contract in an account)


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## asreiter

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Well, hummph.  Who would want to buy a ts they couldn't use for 2/3 years. and pay 12k a year.
> 
> Edited:  you ansered that question.


It actually was me who purchased that contract and it was an amazing deal.......do you know how often a Canterbury contract comes available? or did you know they have some of the lowest fees in the system?? I knew there were no points available but as of January I was able to credit pool and book a vacation. Thanks Ron!!


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## foundyoubyaccident

asreiter said:


> It actually was me who purchased that contract and it was an amazing deal.......do you know how often a Canterbury contract comes available? or did you know they have some of the lowest fees in the system?? I knew there were no points available but as of January I was able to credit pool and book a vacation. Thanks Ron!!



Honestly, No, No, and I was thinking it was like 3 years you wouldn't even be able to use it.  Who would do something like that.  I am still new to ownership, and still learning how to buy and where.  Also, I thought it was a 2 million point contract.   There is a big difference from 2000 a month to 2000 a year for maintenance fees.


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## CO skier

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Has this been done before?  Does the new owner, know this when purchasing ?


Yes.

and ...

No, not necessarily.  Some very experienced Club Wyndham owners have been burned by this scam.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...-no-points-for-2016-2017.240273/#post-1872088


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> It wouldn't be $12000 a year
> 500000 Canterbury would be about $2000 a year
> 
> But the point so many miss is you don't have to wait 2 years to make a reservation.
> 
> I might buy a contract today that would settle in two or three months. Let's say that was a million point contract. When it settles I could credit pool 2017 2018 and 2019 points.  And then put all those points into reservations and then sell the contract.  It would settle in 3 months
> 
> So I got the benefit of 3 years of points for only 3 months of maintenance fees (plus the purchase price)
> 
> And the buyer will pay fees the rest of the year. Let's say 5 months. Then in Jan 2018 he can credit pool his
> 2020 points and make a reservation
> 
> So it's not true he has to wait 2 0r 3 years


When I read this, I get the same feeling I get when in a timeshare presentation -- just enough truth to make the sale.

The costly part remains untold.


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## asreiter

CO skier said:


> When I read this, I get the same feeling I get when in a timeshare presentation -- just enough truth to make the sale.
> 
> The costly part remains untold.


That may be true in some instances but Ron was completely upfront with me.........


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## CO skier

asreiter said:


> That may be true in some instances but Ron was completely upfront with me.........


That is good for you.

By transferring stripped accounts, Wyndham allows other, uninformed purchasers to get ripped-off.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> That is good for you.
> 
> By transferring stripped accounts, Wyndham allows other, uninformed purchasers to get ripped-off.


No! That's fraud.  Full disclosure up front is not fraud.  By making that statement how many personal experiences are you basing that on?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## asreiter

CO skier said:


> That is good for you.
> 
> By transferring stripped accounts, Wyndham allows other, uninformed purchasers to get ripped-off.


Then those purchasers only have themselves to blame for being uninformed, IMHO


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## CO skier

asreiter said:


> Then those purchasers only have themselves to blame for being uninformed, IMHO


No, even those buyers who do as much due diligence as they can by requesting an estoppel, have Wyndham and the scamming seller to blame, because the estoppel does not include any reference to the stripped points.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> When I read this, I get the same feeling I get when in a timeshare presentation -- just enough truth to make the sale.
> 
> The costly part remains untold.



the pros and cons are always laid out for the buyer,(by me)  and if I dont think the buyer understands, I dont sell to them. and with this deal part of my offer was if they changed their minds, Id take it back. as asreiter said, she was able to make her first reservation within just a few months after settlement

even if she had to wait 2 years, this would have been   a good deal. 

heres a couple of  hypothetical million point deals to compare

possible contract 1)  
cost to purchase = $5000, amortized over 5 years = $1000 per year
mf per year at $6/1000 points = $6000/year
annual cost first five years is $7000
assuming 10 vacations out of the million points each year we get a cost of $700/vacation

possible contract 2
cost to purchase = $1500  amortized over 5 years = $300/year
mf per year $7/1000 points or $7000/year
annual  cost over 5 years $7300/year and
assuming the same 10 vacations per year the cost is $730/vacation



Now lets put the Canterbury deal in the mix

cost to purchase = $500 closing costs only
mf per year  $4000 (5 years = $20000)
total 5 year cost is $20500

now remember we are assuming no vacations for 2 years so at 10 vacations per year we will get 30 vacations in the first 5 years.. $683/vacation

but the real test  comes after the 5th year
in example
1) the 10 vacations per year will cost $600 each
2) $700
Canterbury $400


Interestingly it was the reaction to that Canterbury contract offered on the bargain deals forum that caused TUG to change their definition of "bargain" Now bargain means free and real bargains  like mine are no longer allowed.


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> the pros and cons are always laid out for the buyer,(by me)  and if I dont think the buyer understands, I dont sell to them. and with this deal part of my offer was if they changed their minds, Id take it back.


The cons are significantly absent from your previous postings but good for you and your buyer; it does not change the fact that unscrupulous sellers can take advantage of unsuspecting buyers using the stripped accounts scam -- aided and abetted by the Wyndham transfer department.

The very simple solution is to require that all transferred contracts be paid up to date for the usage -- the seller cannot sell until they have paid for what they have reserved and/or used.  I have no idea why this is not Wyndham policy.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> That is good for you, but it does not change the fact that unscrupulous sellers can take advantage of unsuspecting buyers using the stripped accounts scam -- aided and abetted by the Wyndham transfer department.



no question about that, but it just doesnt happen. It could happen, but it doesnt.  Even on ebay which operates much like the wild wild west, where I have purchased over 20 million points a year for several years  I havent been burned, and I dont get estopples and I dont use escrow. , I just send my money to the seller and wait for settlement. I can count the problems on one hand, and most of them were resolved to my satisfaction

FYI Wyndam has already taken action to stop the transfer of stripped worldmark accounts. and I am willing to bet that they will do the same thing with Wyndham contracts, if they arent already.


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> no question about that, but it just doesnt happen. It could happen, but it doesnt.  Even on ebay which operates much like the wild wild west, where I have purchased over 20 million points a year for several years  I havent been burned, and I dont get estopples and I dont use escrow. , I just send my money to the seller and wait for settlement. I can count the problems on one hand, and most of them were resolved to my satisfaction.


Lucky you, but that is not everyone's experience.  (See link above in post #1267.)



ronparise said:


> FYI Wyndam has already taken action to stop the transfer of stripped worldmark accounts. and I am willing to bet that they will do the same thing with Wyndham contracts, if they arent already.


Good for Wyndham, and any future unsuspecting Club Wyndham buyers.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

Nice to see Co Skier & Ron P. exchanging details in a information driven conversation.
as informed TUG members and knowledgeable Wyndham owners .

It was also great that the pleased purchaser of the " famous " bargain Canterbury participated .

Ron - Am I correct in recalling that you did once post that you drove 4 + hours to visit a seller in person 
and thereby straitened out an issue . I assume that was one of the few ..

 Your extensive experience with ebay purchases may have "helped " in avoiding problems .
I believe you have also posted that knowledge has allowed you to make some great buys - when a ebay seller incorrectly listed info and the contract went way below value .

I would assume most resale buyers only purchase a few contracts over a lifetime - so one bad experience would really stand out - as Co Skier makes clear - from that perspective .
.


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## ronparise

I understand that you might think one deal gone bad may not a big deal to me because  I am involved in so many. And one bad deal for the guy that only does one; it is a big deal. But you would be wrong.  I care very much that every timeshare deal go well. Timeshare dealers don't  have a very good reputation and because I'm in that business it affects me. It is in my selfish interest to care about the bad actors and do what I can to improve that reputation

Yes I drove several hours to confront a seller but the issue there wasn't that they transferred an undisclosed stripped contract to me. The problem there was that they hadn't transferred it at all. But I wouldn't count this  as a deal gone bad. At the end of the day I got what I paid for. That seller by the way went to jail for other deals I talked to the local sheriff who was investigating this case and I think my information helped in some small way to make that happen it is important to note that these other buyers got their money back

co skier has made the argument (if I understand him correctly) that selling stripped contracts is bad on its face, because it's so easy for the seller to scam the buyer. And he went out of his way to warn potential buyers away from my offer in spite of my full disclosure

You are absolutely right that my knowledge as a buyer has led me to some pretty goood deals and perhaps I should have disclosed that to the sellers but in every case where that happened the seller was another professional not an individual. I have always disclosed to my individual sellers that that I intended to make money off what they were selling me and that if they wanted to, they could too.

What I object to in coskiers blanket condemnation of all sales of stripped contracts is that he gives no consideration to and no exception for a deal where the seller offers full disclosure


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## Roger830

I did four ebay deals with one gone bad. It closed in an October and the following year's points were used after the estoppel was issued.

After much communication with the closing agent and reference to tug numerous times, the agent agreed to either reverse the closing or have the prior owner pay me the mf. I took the money.

I agree with coskier that it should be Wyndham policy for the seller to pay for points used before transfer.


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## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> unscrupulous sellers can take advantage of unsuspecting buyers using the stripped accounts scam -- aided and abetted by the Wyndham transfer department.
> 
> The very simple solution is to require that all transferred contracts be paid up to date for the usage -- the seller cannot sell until they have paid for what they have reserved and/or used.  I have no idea why this is not Wyndham policy.



I would not count on Wyndham's ability to make that work.  I have sold contracts with the full intention of having them fully vested with the current year's points, as well as succeeding years.  However, Wyndham's inability to correctly track the points resulted in numerous sales being sold without the current year's points, and in one case the following year.  In those instances, I have attempted to get Wyndham to move points (I had enough in my account) to the new buyer.  Wyndham did it one time, but not the other times.  In those cases, I reimbursed the buyers for the MFs they would pay for the points they could not use.  It just speaks to the larger issue that is the subject of this thread, "Why is Wyndham's IT department seemingly incapable of tracking points with any degree of consistency or reliability?"  And why do they punish the owners of impacted accounts, and not their own incompetent departments?


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## bogey21

ronparise said:


> ....and I don't get estopples and I don't use escrow. , I just send my money to the seller and wait for settlement.



I'm with Ron on this.  In my day I probably bought 15, maybe 20 Weeks on Ebay.  I,too, *never* got an estopple and* never* used escrow.  I had one minor problem and it was resolved within days.

George


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> What I object to in coskiers blanket condemnation of all sales of stripped contracts is that he gives no consideration to and no exception for a deal where the seller offers full disclosure


It was mentioned either earlier in this or in another thread that Wyndham is not accepting stripped accounts through the Ovation deedback program.

If this is true, could it be because Wyndham does not want to get stuck with unpaid maintenance fees.  Would they make an exception if the deedback included full disclosure?

If Wyndham thinks a blanket refusal of all stripped accounts is in their best interests, why not extend that protection to all buyers by refusing to transfer any maintenance fee deficient stripped accounts?


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## spackler

CO skier said:


> If Wyndham thinks a blanket refusal of all stripped accounts is in their best interests, why not extend that protection to all buyers by refusing to transfer any maintenance fee deficient stripped accounts?



If both buyer and seller agree to the terms, what's the issue?  A stripped deed with low MFs (like Bali Hai, Canterbury) might end up being a better deal for certain buyers than a normal deed that has all the points intact.


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## CO skier

spackler said:


> If both buyer and seller agree to the terms, what's the issue?  A stripped deed with low MFs (like Bali Hai, Canterbury) might end up being a better deal for certain buyers than a normal deed that has all the points intact.


Sure, there are a few decent deals salted among the pile of mud season dogs.


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## comicbookman

CO skier said:


> Sure, there are a few decent deals salted among the pile of mud season dogs.



I fail to understand your position that buyers should be denied their choice of deals.  Sure it is possible to use a stripped contract to cheat someone.  It is also possible to use a fake contract and a temporary e-mail to cheat someone as well.  Should Wyndham ban all sales that do not involve face to face negotiation?


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## Joe33426

spackler said:


> If both buyer and seller agree to the terms, what's the issue?  A stripped deed with low MFs (like Bali Hai, Canterbury) might end up being a better deal for certain buyers than a normal deed that has all the points intact.



First I thought selling stripped contracts was really bad, but now after reading this thread, I don't think it's a terrible idea as long as the buyer understands that it's a stripped contact and agrees to the terms.  The buyer is able to finance the purchase by buying a stripped contact.  Nothing I would want, but to each their own...


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## Roger830

Typically a fixed week resort won't accept a transfer until the mf is up to date.

Wyndham should do the same for their own protection as well as the buyer. If the buyer wants a stripped contract, then the buyer should prepay the mf that is due for the missing points.

I was always surprised that Wyndham allows credit pooling further than the next use year. I expect that to change once they hire a programmer.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> Sure, there are a few decent deals salted among the pile of mud season dogs.


It's a real estate deal.  Deeded or trust.  Real estate laws apply.  Has anyone ever negotiated a deal to stay in your old house until the new one was finished?  Now will wyndham accept the deed, or partial interest into the club Wyndham?  As Ron said they have, but maybe no longer.  

Your assumption is based on the theory that 90% of the people are bad, and the other side is saying 90% of the people are good, and I agree.  Be a miserable life if not!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

Roger830 said:


> I expect that to change once they hire a programmer.



That is Quote of the Month in my book.  All of the corporate big wigs and highly compensated officers, and no one at Wyndham has spent money on a real programmer.


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## chapjim

ronparise said:


> I understand that you might think one deal gone bad may not a big deal to me because  I am involved in so many. And one bad deal for the guy that only does one; it is a big deal. But you would be wrong.  I care very much that every timeshare deal go well. Timeshare dealers don't  have a very good reputation and because I'm in that business it affects me. It is in my selfish interest to care about the bad actors and do what I can to improve that reputation
> 
> Yes I drove several hours to confront a seller but the issue there wasn't that they transferred an undisclosed stripped contract to me. The problem there was that they hadn't transferred it at all. But I wouldn't count this  as a deal gone bad. At the end of the day I got what I paid for. That seller by the way went to jail for other deals I talked to the local sheriff who was investigating this case and I think my information helped in some small way to make that happen it is important to note that these other buyers got their money back
> 
> co skier has made the argument (if I understand him correctly) that selling stripped contracts is bad on its face, because it's so easy for the seller to scam the buyer. And he went out of his way to warn potential buyers away from my offer in spite of my full disclosure
> 
> You are absolutely right that my knowledge as a buyer has led me to some pretty goood deals and perhaps I should have disclosed that to the sellers but in every case where that happened the seller was another professional not an individual. I have always disclosed to my individual sellers that that I intended to make money off what they were selling me and that if they wanted to, they could too.
> 
> What I object to in coskiers blanket condemnation of all sales of stripped contracts is that he gives no consideration to and no exception for a deal where the seller offers full disclosure



coskier probably thinks selling bonds with the coupons stripped off it immoral/illegal.


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## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> No, even those buyers who do as much due diligence as they can by requesting an estoppel, have Wyndham and the scamming seller to blame, because the estoppel does not include any reference to the stripped points.



Wouldn't a knowledgeable buyer ensure the purchase contract fully details what they are purchasing? I know when I buy a deeded week it outlines when dues and usage will start.


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## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> That is Quote of the Month in my book.  All of the corporate big wigs and highly compensated officers, and no one at Wyndham has spent money on a real programmer.


It is what you get - more often than not - when you outsource critical aspects of your business.


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## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> If Wyndham thinks a blanket refusal of all stripped accounts is in their best interests, why not extend that protection to all buyers by refusing to transfer any maintenance fee deficient stripped accounts?



By this logic, if Wyndham thinks a blanket refusal of any deeds from (for example) Fairfield Plantation is in their best interests, why not extend that protection to all buyers by refusing to transfer any deeds from Fairfield Plantation? That's ridiculous, of course; Wyndham's standards for acceptance into the Ovation program do not need to apply to fully-informed buyers in a private transaction.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> It was mentioned either earlier in this or in another thread that Wyndham is not accepting stripped accounts through the Ovation deedback program.
> 
> If this is true, could it be because Wyndham does not want to get stuck with unpaid maintenance fees.  Would they make an exception if the deedback included full disclosure?
> 
> If Wyndham thinks a blanket refusal of all stripped accounts is in their best interests, why not extend that protection to all buyers by refusing to transfer any maintenance fee deficient stripped accounts?



Part of the ovation program has been to pay for contracts that were purchased directly from Wyndham, They didn't pay money, they payed  the seller 3 years of points, which is exactly the same as taking back a stripped contract

But to your point.  if they dont want to take stripped contracts they dont have to;  any buyer is free to reject any contract that they dont like.


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## raygo123

ronparise said:


> Part of the ovation program has been to pay for contracts that were purchased directly from Wyndham, They didn't pay money, they payed  the seller 3 years of points, which is exactly the same as taking back a stripped contract
> 
> But to your point.  if they dont want to take stripped contracts they dont have to;  any buyer is free to reject any contract that they dont like.


I think that's called a free market system

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## T-Dot-Traveller

Ron - I wasn't trying to imply that a deal gone bad meant any less to you  than to someone who only bought resale one time - and had it happen . 

Sorry if it appeared that way in my post 1278.

********
I am glad the discussion gave Joe33426 ( and other readers ) more perspective. & knowledge on the possible value in buying ( for the right price )a resale stripped contract " .
.


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## am1

spackler said:


> If both buyer and seller agree to the terms, what's the issue?  A stripped deed with low MFs (like Bali Hai, Canterbury) might end up being a better deal for certain buyers than a normal deed that has all the points intact.



What if the buyer that agrees to the terms decides to default a few months later?  Then who pays for those missing points?


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## ronparise

assuming that the transfer was completed... the buyer


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## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> assuming that the transfer was completed... the buyer



I think Adam is saying the buyer is not paying the maintenance fees (defaults). Therefore, the original seller who stripped the points got the points "for free", the buyer (who may have paid next to nothing for the contract) loses nothing (other than credit hit, etc.)... and the points are still in play in Seller's account.

Ultimately the HOA (read: the other, paying owners) incurs the costs as they would for any default in this situation. It's just made worse by the fact that the deed or contract, should they foreclose, does not have points for future years.

Now imagine a scenario where the Seller and Buyer are in collusion and the buyer is a thinly-disguised Viking Ship LLC.


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## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> I think Adam is saying the buyer is not paying the maintenance fees (defaults). Therefore, the original seller who stripped the points got the points "for free", the buyer (who may have paid next to nothing for the contract) loses nothing (other than credit hit, etc.)... and the points are still in play in Seller's account.
> 
> Ultimately the HOA (read: the other, paying owners) incurs the costs as they would for any default in this situation. It's just made worse by the fact that the deed or contract, should they foreclose, does not have points for future years.
> 
> Now imagine a scenario where the Seller and Buyer are in collusion and the buyer is a thinly-disguised Viking Ship LLC.



I know that's what he meant
And my answer stands. Whether the owner is pay the fees or not his responsibility remains and yes I know that if he never steps up to pay there will be a foreclosure and ultimately the hoa sufffers the loss

For several years my strategy was to "buy" lots of points  , credit pool them, turn them over to a points manager at  $6/1000 pay the fees and then do it again

Assuming 5 million points a year my cost at $6/1000 would be $30000. MF in the first year another $6/1000 ($30000) and my income $90000 (5000x6x3). For a positive cash flow of $30000

In the second year I'd break even on the first years 5 million points but enjoy a $30000 positive cash flow on a second 5 million

The obvious flaw in the strategy is that I had to grow or die. after 10 years (for an example) I'd have 50 million points with an mf of $300000 a year and only break even on them and perhaps the points managers I was using wouldn't be able to handle that number of points

I was asked "what is your exit strategy" and my answer was "I'm gonna die and leave Wyndham with the problem". Either that or I'd just default and leave Wyndham with the problem

And so to am1's question and as big rob says. Wyndham and the hoa's  would be stuck


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I know that's what he meant
> And my answer stands. Whether the owner is pay the fees or not his responsibility remains and yes I know that if he never steps up to pay there will be a foreclosure and ultimately the hoa sufffers the loss
> 
> For several years my strategy was to "buy" lots of points  , credit pool them, turn them over to a points manager at  $6/1000 pay the fees and then do it again
> 
> Assuming 5 million points a year my cost at $6/1000 would be $30000. MF in the first year another $6/1000 ($30000) and my income $90000 (5000x6x3). For a positive cash flow of $30000
> 
> In the second year I'd break even on the first years 5 million points but enjoy a $30000 positive cash flow on a second 5 million
> 
> The obvious flaw in the strategy is that I had to grow or die. after 10 years (for an example) I'd have 50 million points with an mf of $300000 a year and only break even on them and perhaps the points managers I was using wouldn't be able to handle that number of points
> 
> I was asked "what is your exit strategy" and my answer was "I'm gonna die and leave Wyndham with the problem". Either that or I'd just default and leave Wyndham with the problem
> 
> And so to am1's question and as big rob says. The Wyndham and the hoa's  would be stuck


If Wyndham were to require prepayment of the associated maintenance fees along with the $39 charge to deposit Credit Pool points, that would end both this scheme and the stripped accounts problem.  Credit pooling requires a call to reservations, so there would be no need to write any programming.  It seems like a simple solution.

Companies do not like to carry credit balances; maybe that is the issue.


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## Roger830

CO skier said:


> If Wyndham were to require prepayment of the associated maintenance fees along with the $39 charge to deposit Credit Pool points



When I first read about the credit pool in the Wyndham manual, it made sense not to require prepayment of mf like the fixed week resorts do when banking a unit.

My impression of Wyndham's intent was that if the members couldn't vacation in the following year, they could credit pool the points and use them in a future year, therefore the mf would have been paid by then. To credit pool two future year's points and use them in the current year is not what was intended.

Perhaps when they hire the programmer, they could require mf be paid for credit pooled points used in the current year.


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## comicbookman

Roger830 said:


> When I first read about the credit pool in the Wyndham manual, it made sense not to require prepayment of mf like the fixed week resorts do when banking a unit.
> 
> My impression of Wyndham's intent was that if the members couldn't vacation in the following year, they could credit pool the points and use them in a future year, therefore the mf would have been paid by then. To credit pool two future year's points and use them in the current year is not what was intended.
> 
> Perhaps when they hire the programmer, they could require mf be paid for credit pooled points used in the current year.




It seems to me that the simple solution would be to have the credit pooled pints run 3 years from the date they would have been awarded and not be available for use before that date.  That would still allow people to plan ahead, but not use the points before MF's have been paid.


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## uscav8r

comicbookman said:


> It seems to me that the simple solution would be to have the credit pooled pints run 3 years from the date they would have been awarded and not be available for use before that date.  That would still allow people to plan ahead, but not use the points before MF's have been paid.


That would hurt anyone who has an every-other-Year contract. 

I could see requiring MF to be prepaid for pooling points beyond the next use Year but to go with the policy above is too restrictive IMO. 


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## comicbookman

uscav8r said:


> That would hurt anyone who has an every-other-Year contract.
> 
> I could see requiring MF to be prepaid for pooling points beyond the next use Year but to go with the policy above is too restrictive IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



How would that hurt an every other year person?  You would still get 3 years of pooling and use, just not be able to start using them until their original start date.  An every other year would still be able to overlap just like now, just not until MF's are paid.


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## Ty1on

Credit pool is REALLY useful as it is written today, and I would hate to see it decimated because of an academic inquiry into how it could be used to rip off HOAs, which, if it happens at all, is an extremely rare occurrence.


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## am1

Ty1on said:


> Credit pool is REALLY useful as it is written today, and I would hate to see it decimated because of an academic inquiry into how it could be used to rip off HOAs, which, if it happens at all, is an extremely rare occurrence.



For sure. I would question it on transferring stripped accounts though.


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## ronparise

the answer for Wyndham would be to restrict the credit pool to the use anticipated in the owners directory, ie if you know you cant vacation next year  put next years points into the pool...   (use today's points tomorrow)

What I was doing is not in the book and that is to take future years points and use them today. (use tomorrows points today)


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## bnoble

If I were in charge, I'd put the same time limit on pooling that exists for RCI deposits. You can pool as early as ten months prior to first use, but no earlier. (Though, if pressed, I'd probably change both windows to one year prior to use.)


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## uscav8r

ronparise said:


> the answer for Wyndham would be to restrict the credit pool to the use anticipated in the owners directory, ie if you know you cant vacation next year  put next years points into the pool...   (use today's points tomorrow)
> 
> What I was doing is not in the book and that is to take future years points and use them today. (use tomorrows points today)


It may not explicitly be in the book, but the "acceleration" feature exists by definition of the pooled credit validity period. Even the example used in the online website shows an accelerations of the next year's points into the current year. 


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## uscav8r

comicbookman said:


> How would that hurt an every other year person?  You would still get 3 years of pooling and use, just not be able to start using them until their original start date.  An every other year would still be able to overlap just like now, just not until MF's are paid.


Consider this example of a 154k EOY-odd owner (assume it is me). I normally only take a large vacation on occasion, and the EOY generally works fine so I don't pool on a regular basis. 

It is January 2017 and I have all my 2017 points. My wife says, hey, let's try for Hawaii this Christmas! Woohoo! Then I find out the room I want costs 308k for a week. What are my options?

Under the current policy I can pool my 2019 points and go on my dream Christmas vacation in 2017. Under your recommended policy, the soonest I could do this would be Christmas of 2021. Why? Because I can't pool 2017 since we are already into the use-year. The earliest I could pool is 2019 (with a 12/31/2021 expiration). And then I still won't have enough points for this 308k room until 2021. Talk about having to plan ahead!

Four years to go on that dream trip is a pretty big difference for a small time owner such as the one in this example.  


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## ronparise

uscav8r said:


> Consider this example of a 154k EOY-odd owner (assume it is me). I normally only take a large vacation on occasion, and the EOY generally works fine so I don't pool on a regular basis.
> 
> It is January 2017 and I have all my 2017 points. My wife says, hey, let's try for Hawaii this Christmas! Woohoo! Then I find out the room I want costs 308k for a week. What are my options?
> 
> Under the current policy I can pool my 2019 points and go on my dream Christmas vacation in 2017. Under your recommended policy, the soonest I could do this would be Christmas of 2021. Why? Because I can't pool 2017 since we are already into the use-year. The earliest I could pool is 2019 (with a 12/31/2021 expiration). And then I still won't have enough points for this 308k room until 2021. Talk about having to plan ahead!
> 
> Four years to go on that dream trip is a pretty big difference for a small time owner such as the one in this example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The answer would be to have you pay the mf on the 2019 points


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## uscav8r

ronparise said:


> The answer would be to have you pay the mf on the 2019 points


Comicbookman's policy was offered as "simplified" approach that appears to rely on a normal MF payment plan. 

You are combining CO skiers suggestion with this one. 

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## Roger830

Using credit pooled points in the current use year reduces demand in the future for prime weeks.

I booked a day two months out using a few current year points and some credit pooled points. I see this as a positive for other members.

Perhaps a fixed charge of $6/1000 for credit pooled points used in the current use year, then netted out in the future use year would simplify it enough.

I don't see why Wyndham has problems with basic data processing. Wyndham not being able to reverse reservation transactions is incomprehensible to me. Systems that I supported had no problem backing out transactions. Sales order entry programs return inventory and credit accounts, some handle multiple warehouses with no problem. Purchase orders can be cancelled. I see no problem prepaying mf.


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## uscav8r

I fear all this recent OT discussion has only led to more complex and convoluted "fixes". 


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## Ty1on

uscav8r said:


> I fear all this recent OT discussion has only led to more complex and convoluted "fixes".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Exactly.


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> Exactly.


Yea, so true if wyndham even changes one thing, I will be surprised if it works!

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## ronparise

uscav8r said:


> It may not explicitly be in the book, but the "acceleration" feature exists by definition of the pooled credit validity period. Even the example used in the online website shows an accelerations of the next year's points into the current year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



heres what it says in the book  is this what you are calling  "acceleration"  ?
what I see here is a discussion of pushing points into the future.  I dont see what I do (did) which is to pull future points into the present.






and the example on the website



You have a January 1- December 31 Use Year and you are planning a large family reunion in February of 2017 where you will need several units, costing more points than you own
You call in November 2015 and deposit your 2016 points into the Points Credit Pool  
The Pool Credits are good until November 2018
This gives you a travel window from November 2015 to November 2018 to use these Pool Credits
When your Standard Reservation or Express Reservation window arrives in 2016, you have both your 2017 Regular Use Year Points plus your Pool Credits you received for your 2016 points to book your family vacation for February 2017


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## uscav8r

ronparise said:


> heres what it says in the book  is this what you are calling  "acceleration"  ?
> what I see here is a discussion of pushing points into the future.  I dont see what I do (did) which is to pull future points into the present.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3224
> 
> and the example on the website
> 
> 
> 
> You have a January 1- December 31 Use Year and you are planning a large family reunion in February of 2017 where you will need several units, costing more points than you own
> You call in November 2015 and deposit your 2016 points into the Points Credit Pool
> The Pool Credits are good until November 2018
> This gives you a travel window from November 2015 to November 2018 to use these Pool Credits
> When your Standard Reservation or Express Reservation window arrives in 2016, you have both your 2017 Regular Use Year Points plus your Pool Credits you received for your 2016 points to book your family vacation for February 2017



Essentially, yes, via the fourth bullet of the example and the definition that pooled credits are good for three years from the date of deposit (not from the beginning of the pooled Use Year). 

Even the narrative is not quite accurate when it says you get up to an additional 3 years of life on points. Technically you can get about an extra 2 years that you did not already have. VIP Gold and Platinum could theoretically get an extra 6-9 months on top of that. 


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## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> Essentially, yes, via the fourth bullet of the example and the definition that pooled credits are good for three years from the date of deposit (not from the beginning of the pooled Use Year).
> 
> Even the narrative is not quite accurate when it says you get up to an additional 3 years of life on points. Technically you can get about an extra 2 years that you did not already have. VIP Gold and Platinum could theoretically get an extra 6-9 months on top of that.


What you describe is the loophole (potential scam).  It essentially allows a Wyndham timeshare points account to be used as a revolving charge, and when the owner defaults, the creditor -- resort HOA or Wyndham -- is stuck with the outstanding MF bill.

Read the intent from the Credit Pool definition, "If circumstances prevent you from traveling, we offer an option so that you may *use your points in a* *future* *year*."

Booking a 2017 vacation using 2019 EOY points is using *future* points to book a *current* use year vacation.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> What you describe is the loophole (potential scam).  It essentially allows a Wyndham timeshare points account to be used as a revolving charge, and when the owner defaults, the creditor -- resort HOA or Wyndham -- is stuck with the outstanding MF bill.
> 
> Read the intent from the Credit Pool definition, "If circumstances prevent you from traveling, we offer an option so that you may *use your points in a* *future* *year*."
> 
> Booking a 2017 vacation using 2019 EOY points is using *future* points to book a *current* use year vacation.


If you are looking for the perfect system, good luck with that.  The credit pool has its faults no doubt.  But the example you used is minor, to the point of being unconsiquencial in the overall scheme of things.  

The greater problem is all the sold contracts coming back into the system through forfeiture, stripped or not.  It is, in my opinion, the biggest problem for the CWA trust.  There is no HOA for them to go back to since there is no one deed to pin to it.
Who is picking up those MFs?  Are they sitting in the trust and are CWA owners picking up that slack?  We did have a big increase this year.

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## CO skier

raygo123 said:


> The greater problem is all the sold contracts coming back into the system through forfeiture, stripped or not.  It is, in my opinion, the biggest problem for the CWA trust.  There is no HOA for them to go back to since there is no one deed to pin to it.
> Who is picking up those MFs?


Wyndham pays for CWA cancellations, including past due MF. 

And the forfeiture is cheaper (no cost other than unpaid MF) for Wyndham to effect than a foreclosure through a resort HOA (more unpaid MF versus CWA cancellation plus foreclosure costs).

It is not a problem for Club Wyndham Access owners at all, just like unsold CWA points are not a problem for CWA owners.  Wyndham pays.

CWA is not the problem.

Defaulted accounts, and especially defaulted stripped accounts are the problem for HOAs where Wyndham does not contractually, with the HOA, absorb the foreclosure.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> Wyndham.  And the forfeiture is cheaper (no cost other than unpaid MF) for Wyndham to effect than a foreclosure through a resort HOA (more unpaid MF versus CWA cancellation plus foreclosure costs).
> 
> It is not a problem for Club Wyndham Access owners at all, just like unsold CWA points are not a problem for CWA owners.  Wyndham pays.
> 
> CWA is not the problem.
> 
> Defaulted accounts, and especially defaulted stripped accounts are the problem for HOAs where Wyndham does not contractually, with the HOA, absorb the foreclosure.


So why do you think that a return is not a problem?  It's only association is with the trust, not a HOA.  If it belongs to the trust, why would wyndham pick up the tab on the maintainence fees?  They don't pick up the HOA losses!  Isn't that the same as a forfeiture going back to a HOA?  Does wyndham pick up those fees?  And when does wyndham add what's sold to CWA?  

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## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> What you describe is the loophole (potential scam).  It essentially allows a Wyndham timeshare points account to be used as a revolving charge, and when the owner defaults, the creditor -- resort HOA or Wyndham -- is stuck with the outstanding MF bill.
> 
> Read the intent from the Credit Pool definition, "If circumstances prevent you from traveling, we offer an option so that you may *use your points in a* *future* *year*."
> 
> Booking a 2017 vacation using 2019 EOY points is using *future* points to book a *current* use year vacation.



You confuse a non-legally binding description for 100% accurate intent. As I mentioned, even this narrative blurb/intent is erroneous in that you don't get three "additional" years.

Is it fully accurate or not? You can't have it both ways. 


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## CO skier

raygo123 said:


> So why do you think that a return is not a problem?  It's only association is with the trust, not a HOA.  If it belongs to the trust, why would wyndham pick up the tab on the maintainence fees?


I believe Wyndham picks up the tab because Club Wyndham Access is modeled on WorldMark, where no one owns deeded property; they only own a membership in a club.  There are no foreclosures on a club membership, only cancellations.  Much, much simpler.

And obviously, the deeded owner for the underlying Club properties -- Wyndham -- is responsible for maintenance fees.




raygo123 said:


> They don't pick up the HOA losses!


At my home resort, Wyndham pays $2000 towards the HOA foreclosure costs, absorbs the foreclosed deed into CWA, and pays all past due and future maintenance fees.  Yes, Wyndham covers most, and usually all, what used to be HOA losses.  A very good deal for us remaining, home resort UDI owners.


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## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> You confuse a non-legally binding description for 100% accurate intent.


No, I read what is written, and I understand what is used as a loophole.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> I believe Wyndham picks up the tab because Club Wyndham Access is modeled on WorldMark, where no one owns deeded property; they only own a membership in a club.  There are no foreclosures on a club membership, only cancellations.  Much, much simpler.
> 
> And obviously, the deeded owner for the underlying Club properties -- Wyndham -- is responsible for maintenance fees.
> 
> 
> 
> At my home resort, Wyndham pays $2000 towards the HOA foreclosure costs, absorbs the foreclosed deed into CWA, and pays all past due and future maintenance fees.  Yes, Wyndham covers most, and usually all, what used to be HOA losses.  A very good deal for us remaining, home resort UDI owners.


So what your saying is that wyndham picks up all the losses and MFs for all the contracts coming back, or added to CWA?  
I'm just wondering due to the fact it's not a line item in the budget.

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## CO skier

raygo123 said:


> So what your saying is that wyndham picks up all the losses and MFs for all the contracts coming back, or added to CWA?


Yes.



raygo123 said:


> I'm just wondering due to the fact it's not a line item in the budget.


It is a Wyndham liability.

If it appeared in the CWA budget, it would be under "Developer Dues", at least that is how it would be accounted for in the WorldMark budget.  Dues paid by the Developer for unsold points, including reacquired points.

Not a CWA owner, so I don't have access to the CWA budget.

Ask the question at the next CWA annual meeting.  The answer would be most interesting.


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## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> No, I read what is written, and I understand what is used as a loophole.


No one here (unless he or she worked directly for Fairfield when this feature was developed) has any idea of what the true intent and purpose is for the credit pool. We can only go by what Wyndham offers us, but this falls into two categories: actual rules or policies, and the "window dressing." These are not always in alignment, as we have seen on more than one occasion. 

As far as I am concerned, I put more weight into the rule as applied, rather than the narrative "window dressing." This goes to the same issue in the real world: a judge will hold you liable for running afoul of the law and you will not be easily defended by claiming so-and-so told me the intent of the law is different than written (sound familiar? Signed contract versus salesman's pitch?)

Therefore, IMO, the only item that really governs the "intent" of the program is the language of the rule: pooled credits may be used for travel for three years from the date of being placed into the pool. Disagree if you must, but that is why the world has lawyers. 

If Wyndham deems this not in line with their updated intent, it is up to them to change the rule. 

This is all great speculation and debate, but the question remains: are we trying to fix a limited issue with a sledgehammer? The answer, IMO, is a resounding, "Yes!"



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## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> No, I read what is written, and I understand what is used as a loophole.


Also, remember that Wyndham got rid of the only other way to bring future points into the current year for bookings outside of 90 days when they introduced the new rule that cancelled points go back to the bin from which they originally came. Ostensibly this was done to offer more long-term flexibility for owners, but it also removed a way to avoid paying fees for borrowing points and then having them available in the current Use Year beyond the ERP booking window. 

By introducing this other policy, this then put greater emphasis on the credit pool (BTW, the credit pool "window dressing" was never changed after the cancelled points policy was introduced). This puts even greater emphasis on what I call the "acceleration" feature of the credit pool. 

If anything, we know that Wyndham loves its fees. How do you know this was not their way of offering some flexibility, but making sure you also pay-to-play?


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## ronparise

First of all, Yes, wyndham keeps the HOA's whole when it comes to paying maintenance fees.. Go to the CWA annual meetings and the Club Wyndham Annual meetings and for good measure go to a Worldmarkn quarterly or annual meeting and talk to Peter Hernandez (the accountant who presents the financial reports at these meetings) and ask him how it works.. I have.

 I dont think there is any  institutional memory at Wyndham, ie I dont think anyone at Wyndham knows what the intent was when the credit pool was developed any more than we do.  What I am sure of,  from my discussions with various Wyndham employees and executives (before and after the August 23, 2016 suspensions) is that it doesnt matter. 

On August 23rd,   for every 1 million points owned,  I had 9 million points in reservations, and there were many other accounts that looked the same way......and they really didnt like it, nor did they understand how it was possible. What  they learned since then is how some  owners took advantage of IT problems,  VIP discounts, the credit pool and selling off stripped contracts.  They are convinced that they have to make some changes, so that going forward what they saw on August 23 wont happen again


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## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> As far as I am concerned, I put more weight into the rule as applied, rather than the narrative "window dressing." This goes to the same issue in the real world: a judge will hold you liable for running afoul of the law and you will not be easily defended by claiming so-and-so told me the intent of the law is different than written (sound familiar? Signed contract versus salesman's pitch?)
> 
> Therefore, IMO, the only item that really governs the "intent" of the program is the language of the rule: pooled credits may be used for travel for three years from the date of being placed into the pool. Disagree if you must, but that is why the world has lawyers.


Of course pooling future points to use in the current year without paying maintenance fees is legal -- that is what makes it a loophole.




uscav8r said:


> If Wyndham deems this not in line with their updated intent, it is up to them to change the rule.


You have reached the same conclusion I did, about the whole Club Wyndham program, since long before this thread got started.


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## John_and_Val

I still believe the solution to this whole "abuse" of points thing boils down to the striping of contracts and resale points being used for discounts. I am not trying to start a argument here....just looking at facts.
If resale points are prohibited from VIP status, and a contract has to be sold with that years points and future points - done
Solves the excessive point problem, solves the "I can't get a reservation because of mega-renter" problem, and solves the misguided buyers on the resale market from buying striped contracts.
What other problems are we looking to solve?

Please, correct me if I am wrong (remember-this is not a fight!!!)


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## bnoble

John_and_Val said:


> resale points being used for discounts. I am not trying to start a argument here....just looking at facts.


The accumulation of extra points/reservations in an account has nothing to do with discounted reservations. Discounted reservations are denominated at the discount rate, so do not represent "extra" points in an account.

What _can_ result in extra points/reservations in a UY are these four things:

1: Credit pooling
2: Renting additional points from Wyndham
3: Account stripping
4: Roll-forward of cancelled points (maybe no longer possible, but I'm not sure)​
Plus (apparently) errors in Wyndham's computer systems.

That's not to say that Wyndham will not restrict VIP benefits to developer points. But VIP benefits did not lead to the problem that caused these accounts to be frozen.


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## raygo123

bnoble said:


> The accumulation of extra points/reservations in an account has nothing to do with discounted reservations. Discounted reservations are denominated at the discount rate, so do not represent "extra" points in an account.
> 
> What _can_ result in extra points/reservations in a UY are these four things:
> 
> 1: Credit pooling
> 2: Renting additional points from Wyndham
> 3: Account stripping
> 4: Roll-forward of cancelled points (maybe no longer possible, but I'm not sure)​
> Plus (apparently) errors in Wyndham's computer systems.
> 
> That's not to say that Wyndham will not restrict VIP benefits to developer points. But VIP benefits did not lead to the problem that caused these accounts to be frozen.


Really?  Now points only, if there was no VIP benifits, how could any of this have happened? No discounts no multiplying of points?  As soon as you use resale points and return you current use year points to your kitty at twice their original value, that doesn't ad points? Now consider you can do it more than once a year, and then in September pool them for three years, really?

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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Really?  Now points only, if there was no VIP benifits, how could any of this have happened? No discounts no multiplying of points?  As soon as you use resale points and return you current use year points to your kitty at twice their original value, that doesn't ad points? Now consider you can do it more than once a year, and then in September pool them for three years, really?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



There is supposed to be a balance, and that balance is that all discounts are covered by developer owned points.  You don't multiply the points in your account, it simply reflects the real cost to you in number of points.  Example, if you got a 50% discount on a 100K resv, your account will show that resv as 50K points, and your available points will be decremented by 50K.

What you are saying is NOT the cause of the phantom points.


----------



## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> There is supposed to be a balance, and that balance is that all discounts are covered by developer owned points.  You don't multiply the points in your account, it simply reflects the real cost to you in number of points.  Example, if you got a 50% discount on a 100K resv, your account will show that resv as 50K points, and your available points will be decremented by 50K.
> 
> What you are saying is NOT the cause of the phantom points.


I was addressing the statement that VIP benifits did not contribute to the freeze.  I'm well aware of the fact that the discounts are covered by developer points, maybe.  There is also breakage, when someone does not use all their points.   On the other end, there would be no discount without VIP benifits. No points to go back into the account, and no multiplier effect.  I am not discounting the other factors, but disputing the statement that VIP benifits was not a factor.  Call it more points, or discounted points, you add reservations, and as Ron eluded to, wyndham was concerned with how he can have 9 million points worth of reservatons in a 1 million point account, not 9 million points.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> I was addressing the statement that VIP benifits did not contribute to the freeze.  I'm well aware of the fact that the discounts are covered by developer points, maybe.  There is also breakage, when someone does not use all their points.   On the other end, there would be no discount without VIP benifits. No points to go back into the account, and no multiplier effect.  I am not discounting the other factors, but disputing the statement that VIP benifits was not a factor.  Call it more points, or discounted points, you add reservations, and as Ron eluded to, wyndham was concerned with how he can have 9 million points worth of reservatons in a 1 million point account, not 9 million points.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



you are way off base here. The VIP discount policy has absolutely nothing to do with "extra" points in an account. It is only the 4 things that bnoble identified above

1: Credit pooling
2: Renting additional points from Wyndham
3: Account stripping
4: Roll-forward of cancelled points

as has been said several times in this thread, neither the cancel/rebook/upgrade strategy nor the fact VIP discounts are extended to resale points in a VIP account contribute to "extra" points. In fact  my account would have looked the same way it did (9 million points per 1 million owned) even if it wasnt a VIP account.   I needed to be a VIP because the points managers wont take anything but a platinum account.. and I dont have the staff to handle the number of points I had to rent


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> you are way off base here. The VIP discount policy has absolutely nothing to do with "extra" points in an account. It is only the 4 things that bnoble identified above
> 
> 1: Credit pooling
> 2: Renting additional points from Wyndham
> 3: Account stripping
> 4: Roll-forward of cancelled points
> 
> as has been said several times in this thread, neither the cancel/rebook/upgrade strategy nor the fact VIP discounts are extended to resale points in a VIP account contribute to "extra" points. In fact  my account would have looked the same way it did (9 million points per 1 million owned) even if it wasnt a VIP account.   I needed to be a VIP because the points managers wont take anything but a platinum account.. and I dont have the staff to handle the number of points I had to rent


So basically, one must distinguish between total points and extra points?  When you say a one million point account, is that direct purchase points, or the total points in the account?  You went through this mess so I am looking for clarification, not an argument.  Just curious as I was only interested in booking one vacation at the time that cancelled points was in effect, owning only a 154,000 point resale contract.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> So basically, one must distinguish between total points and extra points?  When you say a one million point account, is that direct purchase points, or the total points in the account?  You went through this mess so I am looking for clarification, not an argument.  Just curious as I was only interested in booking one vacation at the time that cancelled points was in effect, owning only a 154,000 point resale contract.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Cancelled points was in effect after you drank the VIP koolaid.  It didn't change until September (?) 2015.


----------



## tschwa2

The extra points were the ones that triggered the audit.  Having more points in your account than you should have had based on your annual allotment be they retail or resale points.


----------



## jediinprescott

raygo123 said:


> So basically, one must distinguish between total points and extra points?  When you say a one million point account, is that direct purchase points, or the total points in the account?  You went through this mess so I am looking for clarification, not an argument.  Just curious as I was only interested in booking one vacation at the time that cancelled points was in effect, owning only a 154,000 point resale contract.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


I've been reading with great interest all of the theories everybody has so I'll just throw my two cents in... since I have never done any of the four things mentioned in the previous posts so I can only assume the extra points error has something to do with the cancel/rebook process...the only option I take advantage of. Possibly during that process when I cnx and rebook the flawed Wyndham computer is not just subtracting the 50% discount from the reservation but subtracting the entire 100% of the points, adding them to my total points available and the rebooking with the 50% discount points. In other words they are giving me the 50% discount reservation but adding back 100% of the points . So in effect I have a discounted reservation and all my original points instead of just half of them. Seems to be the only way to grow more points...just sayn'.
Mike


----------



## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> Cancelled points was in effect after you drank the VIP koolaid.  It didn't change until September (?) 2015.


True, Oct 2014. But never cancelled a reservation at that point.  My only experience was when our February 2015 Florida trip was booked at the wrong resort, and wyndham cancelled that reservation, and booked the right resort.  I was told by the customer care person that they work just like your regular points.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> True, Oct 2014. But never cancelled a reservation at that point.  My only experience was when our February 2015 Florida trip was booked at the wrong resort, and wyndham cancelled that reservation, and booked the right resort.  I was told by the customer care person that they work just like your regular points.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


You were told wrong at that time.


----------



## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> You were told wrong at that time.


Your right, but they did work.  I still don't know the difference, but guess it doesn't matter now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## bnoble

raygo123 said:


> I was addressing the statement that VIP benifits did not contribute to the freeze.


As explained above-thread, they didn't.

The accounts that were frozen all had the following property: They owned X annual points, and the points used for the reservations they had plus the points still left in their account for a particular use year was much greater than X.

This can't happen with just VIP discounts, because of the way the points accounting (is supposed to) work. If I book a unit that normally costs 200K points, but I only have to spend 100K for it, the unit will be recorded as "booked with" 100K points. If you go to list your confirmations, and click on the discounted unit, it will say "Points Used: 100,000" not "Points Used: 200,000." If I later cancel it, I will have 100K points returned to my account, not 200K.

So, suppose there is an owner with X annual points.  They only take advantage of VIP discounts and none of those other four mechanisms I listed above. Suppose further that Wyndham's computer accounting isn't wrong. Then, that owner will never have more than X points in that year in unbooked points + points used for reservations.


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> So basically, one must distinguish between total points and extra points?  When you say a one million point account, is that direct purchase points, or the total points in the account?  You went through this mess so I am looking for clarification, not an argument.  Just curious as I was only interested in booking one vacation at the time that cancelled points was in effect, owning only a 154,000 point resale contract.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



if you own contracts with an annual allocation of 1 million points you would expect to have no more than 3 million points in reservations or available to make 2017 reservations with 


im calling 2 million points "extra" because im only paying mf on 1 million points this year, but Im going to enjoy reservations worth 3 million Lets the distinction is that 1 million points are the face value of the contracts the "extra points" are points available to use this year without paying mf (this year)

is it possible to have more than this?   sure; if there were computer errors or if I used multiple use years to have rolled expiring points forward from past years, 

now I put all 3 million in reservations andthe last reservation was for July 4 . 
I could stop paying mf in April and let them cancel reservations. In my experience you have to be 3 months late before they cancel reservations,   but there are no reservations to cancel after July 4

What just happened? I made 3 million points worth of reservations, worth $6/1000 or $18000 and presumably I rented them and I paid just 4 months mf on 1 million points or about $1500.  

note  that this could be done without a VIP ownership and without the cancel -rebook -upgrade strategy that so many are concerned about


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> you would expect to have no more than 3 million points in reservations or available to make 2017 reservations with


You could have as much as 5 million if you'd pooled the two years prior and the two years afterward, and used none of them outside 2017.


----------



## tschwa2

bnoble said:


> You could have as much as 5 million if you'd pooled the two years prior and the two years afterward, and used none of them outside 2017.


That might trigger an audit or second look but it shouldn't take long to see how the 5 million points made it into the account if there was nothing else going on.


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> You could have as much as 5 million if you'd pooled the two years prior and the two years afterward, and used none of them outside 2017.



I had originally written my post to include the two prior years points as available for reservations. I didn't because mf have been paid on those two years.


----------



## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> That might trigger an audit or second look but it shouldn't take long to see how the 5 million points made it into the account if there was nothing else going on.



Exactly right It's the "something else" that's the problem for wyndham. And the first thing they need to do is figure out what happened and then figure out what to do about it


----------



## lcml11

jediinprescott said:


> *Account*
> 
> I received the same email. Called the number and message said it would get back to me within 48 hours. Unable to do anything with my account.
> Mike



If I am understanding this thread correctly, the people with suspended accounts have to pay maintenance fees but do not have use of the accounts even for use by themselves and families and friends?

This would then appear that Wyndham has the ability to have the suspended account holders paying the maintenance fees for points and/or units that would eventually fall to Wyndham for their use.

Just as a stray thought, I wounder how the mega renters are doing at National Harbor and Old Town Alexandria during all the activity there that is in the news.  Wyndham must be doing very very well with their unused inventory for a January.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> If I am understanding this thread correctly, the people with suspended accounts have to pay maintenance fees but do not have use of the accounts even for use by themselves and families and friends?
> 
> This would then appear that Wyndham has the ability to have the suspended account holders paying the maintenance fees for points and/or units that would eventually fall to Wyndham for their use.
> 
> Just as a stray thought, I wounder how the mega renters are doing at National Harbor and Old Town Alexandria during all the activity there that is in the news.  Wyndham must be doing very very well with their unused inventory for a January.



Heres the thing, 

 I dont like the fact that i had to pay maintenance fees during the suspension, but also understand that I only had to pay fees for what I owned. I didnt have to pay fees on the "extra" points.  (Im calling points that  didnt flow from contracts I own, "extra") . The key word in my last sentence  is "own" As an owner I have to pay my fair share of what what I own, whether Im able use it for a period of time, makes no difference. Once an account is "thawed"  the points are still there to use. And it is entirely right and proper that fees had to be paid before I can use them, 

Bottom line is that ownership and use are two different things, I still have to pay to dock and maintain the boat I own, even in the months I dont use it. . Even if use is suspended, we still own our timeshares.   Nobody has been required to pay fees on points he cant ultimately use. 

What caused this suspension mess is that some of us have been able to enjoy vacations without paying maintenance fees. Either extra points came into the account by mistake, or by design, but either way it's Wyndhams position that we are not entitled to use them, hence the suspensions


----------



## ronparise

Thought you guys might enjoy reading something  Wyndham Worldwide's,  CEO said in the third quarter 2016 earnings call to the brokerage community on October 26, 2016,

"The other positive impact is our technology. We have a terrific IT group across all the business units ....."


----------



## foundyoubyaccident

ronparise said:


> What caused this suspension mess is that some of us have been able to enjoy vacations without paying maintenance fees. Either extra points came into the account by mistake, or by design, but either way it's Wyndhams position that we are not entitled to use them, hence the suspensions



The last update I went to in crossville tn , the sales person said this was okay to do!  She gave me many examples, and boasted that that was the reason to buy so many points.  her words where I could rent out my points to pay for my maintenance fees and take free vacations, also I would get to take a yearly free cruise.  After i politely said no about 30 times, she then said i wouldn't be able to book anywhere but my home resort.


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> "The other positive impact is our technology. We have a terrific IT group across all the business units ....."



What a load of crap!!!  Why can't the "terrific IT group" finish an audit of a small group (a little over 100 out of 600,000 accounts) in less than six months?  Or better yet, why can't a "terrific IT group" design a system that doesn't make mistakes on points allocation to the tune of hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of excess points?


----------



## jediinprescott

ronparise said:


> Heres the thing,
> 
> I dont like the fact that i had to pay maintenance fees during the suspension, but also understand that I only had to pay fees for what I owned. I didnt have to pay fees on the "extra" points.  (Im calling points that  didnt flow from contracts I own, "extra") . The key word in my last sentence  is "own" As an owner I have to pay my fair share of what what I own, whether Im able use it for a period of time, makes no difference. Once an account is "thawed"  the points are still there to use. And it is entirely right and proper that fees had to be paid before I can use them,
> 
> Bottom line is that ownership and use are two different things, I still have to pay to dock and maintain the boat I own, even in the months I dont use it. . Even if use is suspended, we still own our timeshares.   Nobody has been required to pay fees on points he cant ultimately use.
> 
> What caused this suspension mess is that some of us have been able to enjoy vacations without paying maintenance fees. Either extra points came into the account by mistake, or by design, but either way it's Wyndhams position that we are not entitled to use them, hence the suspensions


I think you are totally correct in your assessment Ron.


----------



## ronparise

foundyoubyaccident said:


> The last update I went to in crossville tn , the sales person said this was okay to do!  She gave me many examples, and boasted that that was the reason to buy so many points.  her words where I could rent out my points to pay for my maintenance fees and take free vacations, also I would get to take a yearly free cruise.  After i politely said no about 30 times, she then said i wouldn't be able to book anywhere but my home resort.



What Im talking about is something completely different  Im not talking about making reservations with some of your points and renting them for enough money to pay all of your fees, thereby enjoying a "free" vacation or two.

Thats not a problem for Wyndham because you are only using points you own and you are paying the fees

The situation discussed in this long thread is completely different. Here we are talking about someone that owns, for example, contracts that provide an annual allocation of 2 million points a year and pay maintenance fees on those 2 million points, but have reservations in their accounts worth in excess of 10 million points.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Heres the thing,
> 
> I dont like the fact that i had to pay maintenance fees during the suspension, but also understand that I only had to pay fees for what I owned. I didnt have to pay fees on the "extra" points.  (Im calling points that  didnt flow from contracts I own, "extra") . The key word in my last sentence  is "own" As an owner I have to pay my fair share of what what I own, whether Im able use it for a period of time, makes no difference. Once an account is "thawed"  the points are still there to use. And it is entirely right and proper that fees had to be paid before I can use them,
> 
> Bottom line is that ownership and use are two different things, I still have to pay to dock and maintain the boat I own, even in the months I dont use it. . Even if use is suspended, we still own our timeshares.   Nobody has been required to pay fees on points he cant ultimately use.
> 
> What caused this suspension mess is that some of us have been able to enjoy vacations without paying maintenance fees. Either extra points came into the account by mistake, or by design, but either way it's Wyndhams position that we are not entitled to use them, hence the suspensions



Thanks, I think I understand now.  If a persons account ends up with more points than MFs are paid on, either without their participating in this or arranging it or otherwise, these accounts are the ones being affected by this.  The only thing I noticed on this extensive thread that continues to get my attention (which I am still reading one post at a time) is that this appears to have started around last June and I do not see many posts indicating their audit is done and their rights restored.  One post indicated a review should be 6 to 8 weeks, if I remember right.


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> "The other positive impact is our technology. We have a terrific IT group across all the business units ....."


"We have always been at war with EastAsia."


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Thanks, I think I understand now.  If a persons account ends up with more points than MFs are paid on, either without their participating in this or arranging it or otherwise, these accounts are the ones being affected by this.  The only thing I noticed on this extensive thread that continues to get my attention (which I am still reading one post at a time) is that this appears to have started around last June and I do not see many posts indicating their audit is done and their rights restored.  One post indicated a review should be 6 to 8 weeks, if I remember right.



we got an email on Aug 23 with notice our accounts had been suspended.  Whats posted here on TUG is that some have been resolved to the satisfaction of the parties, and some have been un-suspended subject to certain conditions, and subject to the completion of the audit and subject to the removal of the "extra" points. and at least one guy reports no communication.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> we got an email on Aug 23 with notice our accounts had been suspended.  Whats posted here on TUG is that some have been resolved to the satisfaction of the parties, and some have been un-suspended subject to certain conditions, and subject to the completion of the audit and subject to the removal of the "extra" points. and at least one guy reports no communication.



Thanks for the summary.  Now I can just skim read the rest of the posts.  Called Corporate Wyndham on what is going on.  The summary is accounts being suspended are being chosen at random and are not limited to 1 million or more points.  They can be any level of points and any membership level.  She indicated that they are looking for employees that have done things wrong so they can be coached.  If the owner is found to have done something wrong, they would be talked to.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Thanks for the summary.  Now I can just skim read the rest of the posts.  Called Corporate Wyndham on what is going on.  The summary is accounts being suspended are being chosen at random and are not limited to 1 million or more points.  They can be any level of points and any membership level.  She indicated that they are looking for employees that have done things wrong so they can be coached.  If the owner is found to have done something wrong, they would be talked to.



That's incorrect or better stated, incomplete.  They aren't telling you the whole story because they don't know the whole story. Very few do and you won't get them on the phone. What you got was a brush off

And by the way, I didn't do anything wrong and I got a "talking to"


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> Thanks, I think I understand now.  If a persons account ends up with more points than MFs are paid on, either without their participating in this or arranging it or otherwise, these accounts are the ones being affected by this.  The only thing I noticed on this extensive thread that continues to get my attention (which I am still reading one post at a time) is that this appears to have started around last June and I do not see many posts indicating their audit is done and their rights restored.  One post indicated a review should be 6 to 8 weeks, if I remember right.



That is partially right.  Some of the suspended accounts did have more points than what MFs were paid on.  However, others simply had more points than the current contract showed.  This was due in some cases to having points "roll forward" when the owner had multiple use years, and points that were close to expiring, would move to the next use year when a reservation was made with those points and cancelled a day or more later.  This was not a glitch, it was a provision of the reservation programming that savvy sales people used to provide another reason for existing owners to purchase more points from the developer, with a different use year than the current account.   So, those owners who were suspended were harmed with no valid reason.  

It would also stand to reason that thousands of owners had an "event" or more that returned excess points to their accounts.  However, whatever parameters that Wyndham set for its net of overages would not have caught them.  It could be that they had simply used the excess points and therefore did not have an excess when the current points, and future reservations were added together.  Those owners got away with excess points and reservations, and were not suspended at all.  

It also appears that once Wyndham's net returned some of the bigger fish (renters) out there, the strategy changed.  It went from one of "how did this owner get all these points?" to "can we use this as cover to impede this owner/renter who is a thorn in our side?"  How else can you explain the prolonged suspension period that interfered with ARP use for major holidays, and a time frame that grew from "not more than two weeks" as claimed by my interviewing attorney, to almost six months at this point.  If this were a movie, the plot would be rejected as too far-fetched, but reality is more wild than fiction.


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> Called Corporate Wyndham on what is going on.  The summary is accounts being suspended are being chosen at random and are not limited to 1 million or more points.  They can be any level of points and any membership level.  She indicated that they are looking for employees that have done things wrong so they can be coached.  If the owner is found to have done something wrong, they would be talked to.



See definition of "spin doctor."  This is wild talk propaganda.  Not even a bit of it is rooted in truth.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> That's incorrect or better stated, incomplete.  They aren't telling you the whole story because they don't know the whole story. Very few do and you won't get them on the phone. What you got was a brush off
> 
> And by the way, I didn't do anything wrong and I got a "talking to"



I am surprised I got anything from them.


----------



## lcml11

Jan M. said:


> I don't have the IT background that some of the other people who post do so I find it extremely hard to understand how it could possibly be taking this long to fix their system. And at this point I wonder if it can be fixed. I find it very curious that the outage was supposed to last until tomorrow morning but didn't even last 24 hours! Apparently IT couldn't deliver whatever management ordered and expected to be ready.
> 
> This is what we do know:
> 1. There was a $20m settlement the court awarded the sales employee over targeting the elderly. Not a good thing to be caught doing as the courts are taking a very dim view of taking advantage of the elderly.
> 2. Wyndham is currently involved in 348 lawsuits which is a huge number compared to other timeshare companies.
> 3. The top people in Wyndham have been selling off their stock for the past 2 years
> 4. The drop in Wyndham stock prices is expected to continue indicating a lack of confidence.
> 5. The abrupt departure of Franz Hanning is seen in the financial community as suspect.
> 6. The Ovations program is a smashing success. It costs Wyndham money to take back these deeds and to carry the maintenance fees on them.
> 7. If they run the mega renters and point managers out of business there will be a massive dumping of deeds worth billions of points. Does Wyndham have the reserves to settle/buy back these deeds and carry that much more in maintenance fees to keep them off the resale market?
> 8. A massive dumping of deeds on the resale market will be noticed and further hurt the stock prices. In addition to making it all that much harder for Wyndham to sell developer points.
> 9. Some owners gained huge numbers of points with credit pool issues. Some used those points.
> 10. Some owners stripped deeds, likely in excess of a billion points, and resold those deeds which came back with full points because Wyndham didn't do their due diligence.
> 11. Wyndham's computer system is such an unholy mess that none of us has any confidence that they can fix it.



Interesting Post.  You might want to add the one talked about in the following link involving Shawnee Village:

http://www.poconorecord.com/article/20160208/NEWS/160209582

Extract:  "The commission "suspended" Roberts' real estate broker license for at least two years, but lifted that suspension in favor of probation."


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> That is partially right.  Some of the suspended accounts did have more points than what MFs were paid on.  However, others simply had more points than the current contract showed.  This was due in some cases to having points "roll forward" when the owner had multiple use years, and points that were close to expiring, would move to the next use year when a reservation was made with those points and cancelled a day or more later.  This was not a glitch, it was a provision of the reservation programming that savvy sales people used to provide another reason for existing owners to purchase more points from the developer, with a different use year than the current account.   So, those owners who were suspended were harmed with no valid reason.
> 
> It would also stand to reason that thousands of owners had an "event" or more that returned excess points to their accounts.  However, whatever parameters that Wyndham set for its net of overages would not have caught them.  It could be that they had simply used the excess points and therefore did not have an excess when the current points, and future reservations were added together.  Those owners got away with excess points and reservations, and were not suspended at all.
> 
> It also appears that once Wyndham's net returned some of the bigger fish (renters) out there, the strategy changed.  It went from one of "how did this owner get all these points?" to "can we use this as cover to impede this owner/renter who is a thorn in our side?"  How else can you explain the prolonged suspension period that interfered with ARP use for major holidays, and a time frame that grew from "not more than two weeks" as claimed by my interviewing attorney, to almost six months at this point.  If this were a movie, the plot would be rejected as too far-fetched, but reality is more wild than fiction.



I was thinking more about my situation and I doubt that i was  typical 

but regarding the points rolling forward.
Maintenance fees may have been paid on them, but they should have expired (from Wyndham's point of view)

and regarding the thorn in their side, I always saw myself as the rose among the thorns, but I guess I did stick them once or twice

and regarding the movie....I hadnt thought of  a screenplay. but I do think I have a book in me.... and if a movie is made, Id like Sam Elliott to play my part


----------



## dagger1

ronparise said:


> I was thinking more about my situation and I doubt that i was  typical
> 
> but regarding the points rolling forward.
> Maintenance fees may have been paid on them, but they should have expired (from Wyndham's point of view)
> 
> and regarding the thorn in their side, I always saw myself as the rose among the thorns, but I guess I did stick them once or twice
> 
> and regarding the movie....I hadnt thought of  a screenplay. but I do think I have a book in me.... and if a movie is made, Id like Sam Elliott to play my part


.

How about Jeff Bridges?


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> I was thinking more about my situation and I doubt that i was  typical
> 
> but regarding the points rolling forward.
> Maintenance fees may have been paid on them, but they should have expired (from Wyndham's point of view)
> 
> and regarding the thorn in their side, I always saw myself as the rose among the thorns, but I guess I did stick them once or twice
> 
> and regarding the movie....I hadnt thought of  a screenplay. but I do think I have a book in me.... and if a movie is made, Id like Sam Elliott to play my part



I always pictured Danny Devito as your starring role.


----------



## ronparise

dagger1 said:


> .
> 
> How about Jeff Bridges?



That would work

Danny DiVito not so much


----------



## ecwinch

I wonder how many people who had their accts suspended also had one or more clawback transactions earlier in 2016?  i.e. a transaction where they took back some points and said it was because of a glitch that returned too many pts on a cancellation. I think I saw a post from someone reporting that and it happened to me.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> I wonder how many people who had their accts suspended also had one or more clawback transactions earlier in 2016?  i.e. a transaction where they took back some points and said it was because of a glitch that returned too many pts on a cancellation. I think I saw a post from someone reporting that and it happened to me.



It happened to me and my account was suspended. I think you are on to something here.

I believe what happened, and I have no idea if there was any pattern to it, was that a reservation that was booked and upgraded during the discount window, then was subsequently cancelled, may have returned more points than were taken from the account to book it. The issue here is that the system showed the reservation as taking/using more points than it actually did; I called about it because I had done a couple of reservations with a VC, and when I checked later, the wrong number of points were showing for those reservations. But when I called back and asked for a review, the people I spoke to said it was done correctly.

When this happened several months later and I again noticed and called someone, they agreed, because the number of points showing for the reservation in this case was actually an impossible amount for that unit type. At that time they credited me points back because the reservation was using too many points for the type of reservation it was. 

With a high volume of transactions a small problem becomes a big problem quickly. If my experience is any indication, there have been problems in the system for a long period of time, and they appear to occur intermittently, which I'm sure makes them more challenging when performing the RCA.


----------



## ecwinch

And the problem might have been accentuated for some - regardless of acct size - if they just happened to execute multiple transactions within whatever "window" the problem was occurring. Giving the appearance that there was no pattern to the glitch, since the over-refund was only triggered upon cancellation. And those cancellations could have occurred through-out 2016.

Interesting.....


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> I wonder how many people who had their accts suspended also had one or more clawback transactions earlier in 2016?  i.e. a transaction where they took back some points and said it was because of a glitch that returned too many pts on a cancellation. I think I saw a post from someone reporting that and it happened to me.



Anyone know if there have been new suspensions since Mr. Holmes became the "Acting" President?


----------



## am1

ecwinch said:


> I wonder how many people who had their accts suspended also had one or more clawback transactions earlier in 2016?  i.e. a transaction where they took back some points and said it was because of a glitch that returned too many pts on a cancellation. I think I saw a post from someone reporting that and it happened to me.




Happened to me both giving me points and taking some away.  I had no idea if what they did was correct or not but figured if they were taking that action they knew what happened and how many points my account should have.


----------



## rubbub

Does anyone know what are the minimum number of points owned for those accounts that have been suspended? Is there a concern that Wyndham may start looking at progressively lower threshold amounts once the initial 'batch' is worked through?


----------



## lcml11

rubbub said:


> Does anyone know what are the minimum number of points owned for those accounts that have been suspended? Is there a concern that Wyndham may start looking at progressively lower threshold amounts once the initial 'batch' is worked through?



1st question, do not know.  Regarding the second one, Corporate Wyndham indicated to me that the section is random and not based on points, can be over 1 million under 1 million and any class of ownership.  Do not know if the selections are still in progress.

If the issue was initially caused by a program that was discontinued in 2016, it may be over.


----------



## ronparise

I don't know the answer of course but I get the sense that the employees working on this want it over as much as we do so they can get back to their regular jobs

I would imagine that they have figured out what caused the problem. Looking at more accounts isn't going to show them anything new. And expending the same work on a little account as they did on mine for a much smaller return probably isn't the best use of resources

As near as I can tell from my contact with other suspended owners, they included fairly small accounts. I'm guessing (educated guess) that they included accounts as small as 2 million points.    Going to an even lower level probably won't happen... at least that's my best guess


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> 1st question, do not know.  Regarding the second one, Corporate Wyndham indicated to me that the section is random and not based on points, can be over 1 million under 1 million and any class of ownership.  Do not know if the selections are still in progress.



I am pretty sure about this.  And I said it before. The person you are talking to dosent know the answer to your question

I'm almost positive that they were given something to read when someone like you (not involved) asked them a question


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I am pretty sure about this.  And I said it before. The person you are talking to dosent know the answer to your question
> 
> I'm almost positive that they were given something to read when someone like you (not involved) asked them a question



No doubt in my mind that this is their "Public" face on the issue which may or may not have any relationship to what really happened.  Interesting enough, I have looked a couple of times for on line newspaper coverage or other independent discussions on the issue without luck.

This suggests to me either this is not a continuing issue relating to more people becoming involved or that there were not many people that were not Wyndham employees were involved.

This issue involves me only to the extent that my family and I are about to start using our points again instead of credit pooling them.  The discussion on the thread pertaining to credit pooling caught my attention.

I was thinking of booking a reservation then cancelling it and re-booking it for a extended family member.  I am passing on this in light of the discussions relating to this thread.  I am just waiting to tomorrow where I can hopefully get the discounted rate straight up.  The town has three Wyndham Resorts and historically is not that hard to get this time of year.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> No doubt in my mind that this is their "Public" face on the issue which may or may not have any relationship to what really happened.  Interesting enough, I have looked a couple of times for on line newspaper coverage or other independent discussions on the issue without luck.
> 
> This suggests to me either this is not a continuing issue relating to more people becoming involved or that there were not many people that were not Wyndham employees were involved.
> 
> This issue involves me only to the extent that my family and I are about to start using our points again instead of credit pooling them.  The discussion on the thread pertaining to credit pooling caught my attention.
> 
> I was thinking of booking a reservation then cancelling it and re-booking it for a extended family member.  I am passing on this in light of the discussions relating to this thread.  I am just waiting to tomorrow where I can hopefully get the discounted rate straight up.  The town has three Wyndham Resorts and historically is not that hard to get this time of year.



The advice has always been, dont try the cancel/rebook trick with reservations you absolutely need.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> The advice has always been, dont try the cancel/rebook trick with reservations you absolutely need.



Thanks, I know and do not.  Do not need to with the number of points I have available.  Tend to just use Full Point purchases for Myrtle Beach for reservations involving immediate family.  Smokey Mountain is not a bad idea to do the same, Family just does not use both in one year.

Your advise has always been, I believe, in good faith, and the pot shots appearing on this thread are just cheap shots.


----------



## ronparise

Thanks

I take the "shots" Ive taken in the vein of, "I told you so" or "serves you right"  Others have commented that they are sorry this is happening.  Either way, the assumption seems to be that Wyndham did something bad  to me.  If I could give the specifics of what is happening , I think the comments would be different.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Thanks
> 
> I take the "shots" Ive taken in the vein of, "I told you so" or "serves you right"  Others have commented that they are sorry this is happening.  Either way, the assumption seems to be that Wyndham did something bad  to me.  If I could give the specifics of what is happening , I think the comments would be different.



No doubt in my mind.


----------



## am1

Just called the regular Wyndham number be accident and was told my account is flagged.  I asked to be transferred to the correct department and was told sure and a few moments later financial services pick up the call.  All these months later and they are still transferring flagged accounts there.


----------



## lcml11

am1 said:


> Just called the regular Wyndham number be accident and was told my account is flagged.  I asked to be transferred to the correct department and was told sure and a few moments later financial services pick up the call.  All these months later and they are still transferring flagged accounts there.



Sorry to hear this is mess is continuing.


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> I wonder how many people who had their accts suspended also had one or more clawback transactions earlier in 2016?  i.e. a transaction where they took back some points and said it was because of a glitch that returned too many pts on a cancellation. I think I saw a post from someone reporting that and it happened to me.


That is exactly what happened to me.  I noticed the "episode" in January 2016 and let Wyndham know.  It was not until April of May of 2016 that they used the clawback technique.  Some of the "episodes" happened to my account in the end of 2015, and they took points away from my 2016 points allotment to cover this.  I was not pleased with that, as I had let some 2015 points expire.  

And then came August, and we all know where that left us.  

But the point that Eric brought up is valid, I am certain in my case that it was this "episode" or several episodes, that led to the inflated point value.


----------



## vacationhopeful

You all have forgotten how many points Wyndham "took" or "recaptured" with cancelling the overlapping reservations last year .... overlapping even by 1 day and 2 reservations (& those points) vanished into the Wyndham side of the spreadsheet.


----------



## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> You all have forgotten how many points Wyndham "took" or "recaptured" with cancelling the overlapping reservations last year .... overlapping even by 1 day and 2 reservations (& those points) vanished into the Wyndham side of the spreadsheet.



It is definitely a one-way street when it comes to taking points.  As soon as Wyndham felt points were going the other direction. . . .SUSPENDED ACCOUNT!!


----------



## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> You all have forgotten how many points Wyndham "took" or "recaptured" with cancelling the overlapping reservations last year .... overlapping even by 1 day and 2 reservations (& those points) vanished into the Wyndham side of the spreadsheet.


 I figured out that they werent automatically cancelling every overlapping reservation, and I developed a strategy to carry multiple reservations inside the 15 day mark without risk.   I lost a few points as I was working on that strategy, but nothing compared to what I lost due to the suspensions

points lost to overlapping reservations, and points lost since the suspensions are completely different and unrelated things. we are talking thousands of points vs tens of millions


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I figured out that they werent automatically cancelling every overlapping reservation, and I developed a strategy to carry multiple reservations inside the 15 day mark without risk.   I lost a few points as I was working on that strategy, but nothing compared to what I lost due to the suspensions
> 
> points lost to overlapping reservations, and points lost since the suspensions are completely different and unrelated things. we are talking thousands of points vs tens of millions



I got lost.  Is the thousands of points the overlapping reservations or the millions?


----------



## Jan M.

lcml11 said:


> I got lost.  Is the thousands of points the overlapping reservations or the millions?



Thousands is the overlapping reservations. Owners like Ron weren't and some like am1 still aren't able to book reservations nor credit pool points during their suspensions. Millions of points were lost when they expired at the end of their use years.


----------



## lcml11

Jan M. said:


> Thousands is the overlapping reservations.



Thanks.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> Just called the regular Wyndham number be accident and was told my account is flagged.  I asked to be transferred to the correct department and was told sure and a few moments later financial services pick up the call.  All these months later and they are still transferring flagged accounts there.



Adam - Have they responded at all to your demands or requests to reinstate your account access?  If not, what is the excuse they are offering?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> Adam - Have they responded at all to your demands or requests to reinstate your account access?  If not, what is the excuse they are offering?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Or, anyone else that maybe still suspended.

Since am1 has posted this morning on another thread and did not respond to this thread, there could be a gag clause in effect.


----------



## vacationhopeful

lcml11 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Since am1 has posted this morning on another thread and did not respond to this thread, there could be a gag clause in effect.



am1 more likely has heard NOTHING. And if there was a "non-disclosure cause", it would not be called a "gag clause".


----------



## lcml11

vacationhopeful said:


> am1 more likely has heard NOTHING. And if there was a "non-disclosure cause", it would not be called a "gag clause".



Sorry my use of english does not meet standards.  Here is the definition:

*gag clause*
Any item in a contract that restricts free speech or personal expression.
Medical Dictionary, © 2009 Farlex and Partners

The term "gag clause" appears to differ from constitutionally protected free speech.  The "gag clause" as defined by the Medical Dictionary appears to apply to contracts.  It does not appear to address other related issues.

https://www.yelpblog.com/2016/09/protecting-free-speech-federal-gag-clause-ban-one-step-closer-law

https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/15/president-obama-signs-the-consumer-review-fairness-act-into-law/

A poster stated "I was not given a "gag" order and would be willing to answer any Tugger questions. I was told the case is closed."

Another poster, I believe, had indicated something to the effect his right to free speech or personal expression (see I am showing improvement) was restricted.

So, unless am1 tells us, we do not know.


----------



## comicbookman

Actually a clause prohibiting the discussion of the details of a PRIVATE agreement does not restrict your right to free speech.  You do not have an automatic right to discuss private details that include another individual or group of individuals. (in this case a company)  Private agreement are not just that, private.  Free speech does not mean unlimited speech.  There are plenty of restrictions.  (libel, slander, HIPA rules, SEC rules, not being allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater if there is no fire etc.)

And yes, I have law degree, so I have some idea of what I am talking about.


----------



## bnoble

Pet peeve alert:

Freedom of speech (as encoded in the constitution) only speaks to what the government must allow. You have the right to wax political here at my public state university, because we are a government agency. You do not in e.g. the middle of Disneyland, and can be thrown out if they decide you are damaging the experience for other guests.


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Adam - Have they responded at all to your demands or requests to reinstate your account access?  If not, what is the excuse they are offering?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Nothing.  In mid January I was told the powers that be wanted to talk to me by someone answering the 1-877 number a timeframe was setup and then nothing.  The powers that be do have my phone number and e-mail whenever they want to contact me but I guess they do not use those channels.  

I have been calling the 1-877 number multiple times a day and leaving messages for call backs so I can add guest names on to reservations and cancel others before 15 days to get the points back (even though I am not sure what good that would even do considering I have not been able to book anything for 6 months).  

As for any kind of gag order/non disclosure Wyndham would have to make me whole for that to happen and I would not have time to post on other threads if/when I am made whole. 

It was a year ago this week where it started where Wyndham went out of their way (possibly at first by accident) but then a few weeks later used it maliciously to damage my ownership with no regard for the fallout.  That has still not been resolved yet.  Even after everything that is public knowledge with how Wyndham treats owners this and a few other things would shock the ownership base.


----------



## lcml11

am1 said:


> Nothing.  In mid January I was told the powers that be wanted to talk to me by someone answering the 1-877 number a timeframe was setup and then nothing.  The powers that be do have my phone number and e-mail whenever they want to contact me but I guess they do not use those channels.
> 
> I have been calling the 1-877 number multiple times a day and leaving messages for call backs so I can add guest names on to reservations and cancel others before 15 days to get the points back (even though I am not sure what good that would even do considering I have not been able to book anything for 6 months).
> 
> As for any kind of gag order/non disclosure Wyndham would have to make me whole for that to happen and I would not have time to post on other threads if/when I am made whole.
> 
> It was a year ago this week where it started where Wyndham went out of their way (possibly at first by accident) but then a few weeks later used it maliciously to damage my ownership with no regard for the fallout.  That has still not been resolved yet.  Even after everything that is public knowledge with how Wyndham treats owners this and a few other things would shock the ownership base.



Thanks for the update.


----------



## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> You do not in e.g. the middle of Disneyland



Or TUG


----------



## lcml11

Ty1on said:


> Or TUG



Disney is probably right.  Not sure about TUG part if the post is considered a review of goods, service, or conduct.

https://www.yelpblog.com/2016/09/protecting-free-speech-federal-gag-clause-ban-one-step-closer-law

https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/15/president-obama-signs-the-consumer-review-fairness-act-into-law/


----------



## bnoble

That only prevents companies from punishing those who write bad reviews. It does not compel a third party to serve as a platform for those reviews. (IANAL)


----------



## lcml11

bnoble said:


> That only prevents companies from punishing those who write bad reviews. It does not compel a third party to serve as a platform for those reviews. (IANAL)



As far as I know, this particular act does not compel a third part to serve as a platform for review.  TUG could get out of the review of goods, service, or conduct if it wanted to.  Maybe comicbookman can give up his thoughts on this issue in light of the two links and his earlier post.


----------



## Ty1on

lcml11 said:


> Disney is probably right.  Not sure about TUG part if the post is considered a review of goods, service, or conduct.
> 
> https://www.yelpblog.com/2016/09/protecting-free-speech-federal-gag-clause-ban-one-step-closer-law
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/15/president-obama-signs-the-consumer-review-fairness-act-into-law/



TUG doesn't curate reviews.  They simply facilitate a quasi-public forum where members are free to offer their reviews.


----------



## Beefnot

comicbookman said:


> Actually a clause prohibiting the discussion of the details of a PRIVATE agreement does not restrict your right to free speech.  You do not have an automatic right to discuss private details that include another individual or group of individuals. (in this case a company)  Private agreement are not just that, private.  Free speech does not mean unlimited speech.  There are plenty of restrictions.  (libel, slander, HIPA rules, SEC rules, not being allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater if there is no fire etc.)
> 
> And yes, I have law degree, so I have some idea of what I am talking about.



Are you debating the content of a particular post?


----------



## am1

After calling the 1-877 number and not getting through or receiving a call back I called the VIP transferred to owner care and then was told someone would call me back right away.  Thankfully they did.  I was told that I cannot reserve my fixed weeks at 13 months.  Really feels that that is trampling my deeded rights to real property.


----------



## lcml11

lcml11 said:


> As far as I know, this particular act does not compel a third part to serve as a platform for review.  TUG could get out of the review of goods, service, or conduct if it wanted to.



Maybe comicbookman could give us his thoughts on this


am1 said:


> After calling the 1-877 number and not getting through or receiving a call back I called the VIP transferred to owner care and then was told someone would call me back right away.  Thankfully they did.  I was told that I cannot reserve my fixed weeks at 13 months.  Really feels that that is trampling my deeded rights to real property.



Are you good to go other than that?  The fixed week limitation is confusing thing to pick on.


----------



## raygo123

am1 said:


> After calling the 1-877 number and not getting through or receiving a call back I called the VIP transferred to owner care and then was told someone would call me back right away.  Thankfully they did.  I was told that I cannot reserve my fixed weeks at 13 months.  Really feels that that is trampling my deeded rights to real property.


Were they converted to points?  Or deeded no points?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## vacationhopeful

am1 said:


> After calling the 1-877 number and not getting through or receiving a call back I called the VIP transferred to owner care and then was told someone would call me back right away.  Thankfully they did.  I was told that I cannot reserve my fixed weeks at 13 months.  Really feels that that is trampling my deeded rights to real property.



Fixed weeks are reserve at 13 month out ONLY IF converted to points....and it has to be the underlying deeded week ... not one that you want to reserve.

am1 ... write and send a certified mail letter to owner care and drop the week out of points. That way you have proof Wyndham took away your ownership.

And remember, converted fixe weeks MFs are collected in the year prior to usage. Your 2016 MFs have paid for your 2017 MFs.


----------



## lcml11

vacationhopeful said:


> Fixed weeks are reserve at 13 month out ONLY IF converted to points....and it has to be the underlying deeded week ... not one that you want to reserve.



Your right.


----------



## vacationhopeful

And that is "you're right". FYI.


lcml11 said:


> Your right.


----------



## ronparise

They have always had trouble dealing with floating weeks  converted to points at 13 months  They should retain the character of the week i.e. If a week floats over the whole year, I should be able to reserve any week at 13 months. But no, they always restricted  me to the deeded week


----------



## comicbookman

lcml11 said:


> Maybe comicbookman could give us his thoughts on this
> 
> 
> Are you good to go other than that?  The fixed week limitation is confusing thing to pick on.



The linked articles refer to clauses in purchase contracts or EULA's, the fine print nobody reads.  Companies like Apple have been slipping in paragraphs which say that the purchaser basically gives up there right to comment on a good or service.  It is still not technically a gag order, but that sounds more menacing.  (It is despicable in my opinion to sneak it in no matter what it is called)  It is different from a negotiated non-disclosure, since only one side really know it is there.  You are correct that the ban in no way forces a third party to allow reviews on their platform.  It does not prevent companies from going after people who post a fake or misleading review, only from going after people for posting reviews that the company simply does not like or which are not flattering.


----------



## raygo123

vacationhopeful said:


> Fixed weeks are reserve at 13 month out ONLY IF converted to points....and it has to be the underlying deeded week ... not one that you want to reserve.
> 
> am1 ... write and send a certified mail letter to owner care and drop the week out of points. That way you have proof Wyndham took away your ownership.
> 
> And remember, converted fixe weeks MFs are collected in the year prior to usage. Your 2016 MFs have paid for your 2017 MFs.


That's the key.  Once s week I'd converted it becomes under the club. I think he is st the whims of the club. Not the hoa.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## vacationhopeful

raygo123 said:


> That's the key.  Once s week I'd converted it becomes under the club. I think he is st the whims of the club. Not the hoa.


Last I checked .. owner care is the Wyndham points manager ... they are NOT fixed weeks. The HOA is managers of the resort ... fixed weeks and points owned there. So, I can talk to the HOA and vote for the HOA for my fixed weeks and my UDI deeded points. 

CWA owners are not listed as holders of deeded points ... that is WHAT the club is. CWA owners are members of Club Wyndham Access .. holders of the deeds.


----------



## lcml11

comicbookman said:


> The linked articles refer to clauses in purchase contracts or EULA's, the fine print nobody reads.  Companies like Apple have been slipping in paragraphs which say that the purchaser basically gives up there right to comment on a good or service.  It is still not technically a gag order, but that sounds more menacing.  (It is despicable in my opinion to sneak it in no matter what it is called)  It is different from a negotiated non-disclosure, since only one side really know it is there.  You are correct that the ban in no way forces a third party to allow reviews on their platform.  It does not prevent companies from going after people who post a fake or misleading review, only from going after people for posting reviews that the company simply does not like or which are not flattering.



Thanks.


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> That's the key.  Once s week I'd converted it becomes under the club. I think he is st the whims of the club. Not the hoa.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



the club (Fairshare trust) is the points system. When you assign  your ownership, or membership rights to the club you are assigned symbolic points to use as currency to make reservations. The club is therefore no more than an exchange vehicle.  

So a fixed week works no different than a UDI deed. What you own is a fractional ownership at a resort. It's the use of the thing that's subject to the club rules. So in the case of a fixed week it works exactly as if it was never assigned to the club in the arp window, i.e. You get to use your week.


----------



## ecwinch

I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.



Prepare to be punished for your malfeasance.

Excuse me whilst I remove my tongue from my cheek.


----------



## vacationhopeful

It is the new math ... remember in elementary school, there was new math then. Now, in our senior years, there is new math again.


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.



Looks like this thread just bought a new lease on life.  

Wonder if the old cancelled points is not the cause.  If parts of it are still in the current program, maybe points go back to where they came from and some points still go back to what was the cancelled points then get flipped to the account.


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.



Wow!  Six months in, no one except Mike in Prescott is fully reconciled, and they still haven't fixed the root problem.  And somehow this will be our problem, not Wyndham's IT department or the despotic Owner Care department.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## am1

Good to know that they still have not fixed the issue but after 6 months my accounts are still locked.  I do not even know what the issue is.  I just know that I cannot book reservations, add contracts, sell contacts, add guest names to reservations I want, have access to the online website and a few other things after 6 months but they still have not resolved any problem they think they have.  Meanwhile I have to pay thousands of dollars in fees each month and the chances of someone answering my call or responding to my voice message within the hour promised on the special phone line is very small.  

I do not know that when I am able to cancel reservations the points are not going back to where they should be going.  Right now it is a small problem but when those points expire in September it will be a big problem.  Most or all of points left have been credit pooled and should have expiration dates in 2018 or 2019 as they were not going back properly before my accounts were locked.


----------



## raygo123

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.


Question, did you cancel and rebook before you cancelled? By chance the amount you got back was the ordinal points needed to book outside the discount window. That would be quite the coincidence.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Wow!  Six months in, no one except Mike in Prescott is fully reconciled, and they still haven't fixed the root problem.  And somehow this will be our problem, not Wyndham's IT department or the despotic Owner Care department.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



It's pretty clear from Eric's and Adam's posts  that one of the  "root causes" of this thing hasnt been fixed.  I think that they think that Voyager is going to fix everything

And the cynic in me says that they have dragged out the audits and resolution and will continue to drag their feet until Voyager is rolled out in the Spring.  The problem of course is that Voyager will do doubt crash.... What then?

Told you Im a cynic.


----------



## lcml11

From the sounds of this thread relating to Voyager, a long time ago, I heard the same things about Voyager being rolled out soon from a few Wyndham people.  It did not happen.  I think Voyager may have been rolled out in pieces over the last year or so or in the alternative, it is not coming soon.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/voyager-program.226161/


----------



## ecwinch

The cancellations I did today were for Feb 2017 check-in's that I booked in Dec 2016. I did not rebook them - just cancelled.


----------



## ronparise

I have attended  the last 3 annual meetings and Geoff Richards talked about Voyager at each one

At last years meeting he promised it would be rolled out by the next meeting. And he invited us to apply to be a beta  tester. And he showed us the new website. So it's pretty clear to me that something is going to happen soon. However I asked about a wait list and was told "not this year" so, to me, that's an indication that there is more to come 

 2  years ago Geoff said that voyager was a much bigger thing than they had expected it to be and that instead of trying to roll it out all at once they would stage a bunch of mini roll outs.  I don't know about you but from the perspective of a user, i haven't seen any changes yet

The only reason I brought up voyager is as a possible explanation for the nearly 6 months since our suspensions last august with little resolution. I think the folks in the legal dept are hoping voyager will fix the systems problem

Cynic that I am.  I think they are dreaming


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I have attended  the last 3 annual meetings and Geoff Richards talked about Voyager at each one
> 
> At last years meeting he promised it would be rolled out by the next meeting. And he invited us to apply to be a beta  tester. And he showed us the new website. So it's pretty clear to me that something is going to happen soon. However I asked about a wait list and was told "not this year" so, to me, that's an indication that there is more to come
> 
> 2  years ago Geoff said that voyager was a much bigger thing than they had expected it to be and that instead of trying to roll it out all at once they would stage a bunch of mini roll outs.  I don't know about you but from the perspective of a user, i haven't seen any changes yet
> 
> The only reason I brought up voyager is as a possible explanation for the nearly 6 months since our suspensions last august with little resolution. I think the folks in the legal dept are hoping voyager will fix the systems problem
> 
> Cynic that I am.  I think they are dreaming



Have not been very active user the last couple of years.  Credit pooled most points.

By the way, cynics are not necessarily wrong.


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> The cancellations I did today were for Feb 2017 check-in's that I booked in Dec 2016. I did not rebook them - just cancelled.



Mind if I ask if the reservations made in December 2016 were regular 2016 use year points?


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## ecwinch

lcml11 said:


> Mind if I ask if the reservations made in December 2016 were regular 2016 use year points?


They were 2017 pts that were credit pooled in Sept 2015 after the system change.


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## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> They were 2017 pts that were credit pooled in Sept 2015 after the system change.



I am sure the following thought occurred to you.  You may want to get with owners care and get this squared away in light of reported suspensions.  Apparently, paying maintenance fees and not having use of the points for periods of time being determined may be real.


----------



## raygo123

ecwinch said:


> The cancellations I did today were for Feb 2017 check-in's that I booked in Dec 2016. I did not rebook them - just cancelled.


Well there goes that theory, I thought the system was depositing the full value of your original booking amount rather than the rebook amount.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## bnoble

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.


I think the following poster has a very good idea.  I'd do it in writing, with a full explanation of what happened vs. what should have happened, so they can correct your account.



lcml11 said:


> I am sure the following thought occurred to you.  You may want to get with owners care and get this squared away in light of reported suspensions.  Apparently, paying maintenance fees and not having use of the points for periods of time being determined may be real.


----------



## lcml11

Talked with the VIP line.  Per the VC, Voyager is up and running for their use except for the Available Inventory portion.  He has to go to the old system for that.  He looked at my account through the Voyager System (that is the primary for him until unit availability comes into play for booking etc.).

He thinks the suspension problems are due to the old point stacking system where the owner could designate a pool of points that would be used to take the points from.  That option does not exist now according to him.

He did make an interesting observation something to the effect that if someone wanted to make their current use year points last the longest, credit pool them now so they go to the back of the line for point usages.

Regular use year points apparently used first than on down the line.  Credit Pool points, he indicated, still has the limitations on use that they used to have and that he can still request a specific room assignment (if available) and tag it as do not move for eligible VIP accounts.

Welcome to Wyndhamland via Voyager.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Talked with the VIP line.  Per the VC, Voyager is up and running for their use except for the Available Inventory portion.  He has to go to the old system for that.  He looked at my account through the Voyager System (that is the primary for him until unit availability comes into play for booking etc.).
> 
> He thinks the suspension problems are due to the old point stacking system where the owner could designate a pool of points that would be used to take the points from.  That option does not exist now according to him.
> 
> He did make an interesting observation something to the effect that if someone wanted to make their current use year points last the longest, credit pool them now so they go to the back of the line for point usages.
> 
> Regular use year points apparently used first than on down the line.  Credit Pool points, he indicated, still has the limitations on use that they used to have and that he can still request a specific room assignment (if available) and tag it as do not move for eligible VIP accounts.
> 
> Welcome to Wyndhamland via Voyager.




If your guy knows what caused the problems that caused the suspensions he should head on down  to the legal department and tell the lawyers and case managers that are working on this thing


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> If your guy knows what caused the problems that caused the suspensions he should head on down  to the legal department and tell the lawyers and case managers that are working on this thing



Wyndham probably figured it out a long time ago.  The moves appear to be methodical.  In reviewing the posts and other things, the use year changes went down, awhile latter the the members directory was changed relating to cancelled points, a line was drawn in August 2015 and earlier booking reservations could be done and completed under the old system, January 2016 problems start to emerge relating to points, August 2016 problems now show up involving numerous accounts (to many points), restrictions start being handed out.

Wyndham may or may not have been able to fix the source of the problem(s).  However, if they believed the problem was on them, then they would just make adjustments to affected accounts as they were located and would not use punitive measures.

A firewall appears may be in place involving actual inventory if this feature has not gone operational within Voyager.


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## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> Wyndham probably figured it out a long time ago.  The moves appear to be methodical.  In reviewing the posts and other things, the use year changes went down, awhile latter the the members directory was changed relating to cancelled points, a line was drawn in August 2015 and earlier booking reservations could be done and completed under the old system, January 2016 problems start to emerge relating to points, August 2016 problems now show up involving numerous accounts (to many points), restrictions start being handed out.



I do not believe they have it figured out.  Simply taking Eric's experience into account shows the problem still exists.  Eric had earlier asked if suspended accounts had been subject to an earlier clawback of points. From all appearances this is true. It is for me. And my clawback included points from episodes in November 2015.  That means this issue is going on a year and a half and hasn't been resolved. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> I do not believe they have it figured out.  Simply taking Eric's experience into account shows the problem still exists.  Eric had earlier asked if suspended accounts had been subject to an earlier clawback of points. From all appearances this is true. It is for me. And my clawback included points from episodes in November 2015.  That means this issue is going on a year and a half and hasn't been resolved.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What is being called "clawback" may have been their initial response to the problem accounts.  I am assuming that clawbacks is where they just made the adjustments to some accounts, followed in some or all cases with restrictions.


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## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> What is being called "clawback" may have been their initial response to the problem accounts.  I am assuming that clawbacks is where they just made the adjustments to some accounts, followed in some or all cases with restrictions.



How can any owner have any confidence in Wyndham's ability to accurately account for our balance of points?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> How can any owner have any confidence in Wyndham's ability to accurately account for our balance of points?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If someone is concerned about that, I think one poster has indicated that s/he would copy the points total every so often.  That is probably not a bad idea.


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## ecwinch

lcml11 said:


> I am sure the following thought occurred to you.  You may want to get with owners care and get this squared away in light of reported suspensions.  Apparently, paying maintenance fees and not having use of the points for periods of time being determined may be real.



That is what I did last year when I noticed a similar problem. On three separate occasions I told them they had problem. The net result was two audits that failed to find a problem. As a result I let over 350k in points expire in 2016.

But all that occurred before they started suspending accts.

Now the quandary is - do I self-report as I did last year - and run the risk of having my acct suspended as they have done to others here? Or do I just wait for them to do their job? Given the inherent risk, I think I will do what I did last year - just not spend the points I have received in error.

I see no benefit - only detriment - by telling them about the problem given how they have dealt with others.

And I can tell you that the point stacking scenario the VC speculated on is not the issue here. It is more fundamental than that, and I doubt I am the only one who is experiencing it.

And the claw backs - at least in my case - was just an email stating they had credited my acct with too many pts from a cancellation, and were adjusting my acct accordingly. No loss of capability.


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## lcml11

For people who cannot view their accounts on line, maybe register with the preview for Voyager and see if it will at least let you view the account.  My guess is yes.


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## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> On three separate occasions I told them they had problem. The net result was two audits that failed to find a problem.
> 
> I see no benefit - only detriment - by telling them about the problem given how they have dealt with others.



Same situation for me. Just higher numbers.  I reported it.  Audit done revealed no problems although I had millions of extra points.  So clearly the audit process is a farce.  

Unfortunately Wyndham's actions toward the impacted owners has alienated us and other owners.  We simply cannot trust Wyndham to do the right thing.  They have achieved the unholy alliance of ignorance and arrogance.  Wouldn't it be great for Wyndham if they treated owners with dignity?  With Eric's situation this dignity would yield trust and he and others would share the details of the episodes in hopes Wyndham could replicate the results and identify the cause.  But Wyndham had chosen to follow a business model of crushing its impacted owners.  Sad.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

Amen.

The error should be pretty easy to detect if they are actually doing an audit. The cancellation is returning points to the current use year in addition to the credit pool that the pts were originally drawn from. I hope reading this helps them.

I am operating on the basis that they will detect this and clawback the pts like they did last year. And I am fine with that, and if the don't, I will let them expire again.

The sad part is that we need to maintain our own accounting.


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> Amen.
> 
> The error should be pretty easy to detect if they are actually doing an audit. The cancellation is returning points to the current use year in addition to the credit pool that the pts were originally drawn from. I hope reading this helps them.
> 
> I am operating on the basis that they will detect this and clawback the pts like they did last year. And I am fine with that, and if the don't, I will let them expire again.
> 
> The sad part is that we need to maintain our own accounting.



The cancel return routine hopefully will be redone or patched quickly so this ends.

Does the preview of Voyager show the same as the old system on this point?


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> The cancel return routine hopefully will be redone or patched quickly so this ends.



Wyndham has known about it for more than a year now.  Not sure they have the capability nor the desire to repair it.  Remember this glitch has provided them the cover to suspend over 100 of their major owners, likely most being of the mega renter status.  Maybe it wasn't an accidental glitch.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> Wyndham has known about it for more than a year now.  Not sure they have the capability nor the desire to repair it.  Remember this glitch has provided them the cover to suspend over 100 of their major owners, likely most being of the mega renter status.  Maybe it wasn't an accidental glitch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It is interesting it is talking so long for the adjustment(s) to fix the problem to take hold.  I am wondering if they are running one data base for the old system and new system or one for the old system and a second one for Voyager.  If there are two systems running side by side and they do not have the same glitch, then one of them should be showing correctly.  That could be why one poster reported he told them of the problem and, after audit, came back no problem.


----------



## ecwinch

lcml11 said:


> The cancel return routine hopefully will be redone or patched quickly so this ends.
> 
> Does the preview of Voyager show the same as the old system on this point?



"Voyager" - shows the exact same thing. Because it is nothing more than a refreshed user-interface to the tired old back-end system that we rely on.

And I know you are just repeating the drivel you are getting from owner care, but the issue here is the defective backend system that processes the transactions, and not the user-interface. I would write a really long post about the technical aspects, but the preview exposes no new functionality. So it appears it is the proverbial "putting lipstick on the pig" that some of IT depts pursue to make it look like they are doing something. The only tangible benefit we will likely recognize is that they are using an adaptive design for the new user interface. And the adaptive design should allow them to avoid coding separate user interfaces for each target device (desktop browser, tablet, phone) that accesses the website.

And this had nothing to do with the cancel/rebook. It was a straight cancellation. A really really simple transaction.

And all this mis-direction that is a "cancel/rebook" problem is amusing. A cancel rebook is just a cancellation, followed by a new booking. Two very simple AND separate transactions that they likely process ten of thousands of each day. The problem is in the back-end accounting.


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## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> "Voyager" - shows the exact same thing. Because it is nothing more than a refreshed user-interface to the tired old back-end system that we rely on.
> 
> And I know you are just repeating the drivel you are getting from owner care, but the issue here is the defective backend system that processes the transactions, and not the user-interface. I would write a really long post about the technical aspects, but the preview exposes no new functionality. So it appears it is the proverbial "putting lipstick on the pig" that some of IT depts pursue to make it look like they are doing something. The only tangible benefit we will likely recognize is that they are using an adaptive design for the new user interface. And the adaptive design should allow them to avoid coding separate user interfaces for each target device (desktop browser, tablet, phone) that accesses the website.
> 
> And this had nothing to do with the cancel/rebook. It was a straight cancellation. A really really simple transaction.
> 
> And all this mis-direction that is a "cancel/rebook" problem is amusing. A cancel rebook is just a cancellation, followed by a new booking. Two very simple AND separate transactions that they likely process ten of thousands of each day. The problem is in the back-end accounting.



Thanks for the update.  I was not talking about the cancel rebook system.  It does not appear to be directly involved.  I was talking the cancel only portion after a reservation is made.  For what it is worth, I am not just repeating what I got from Corporate Wyndham.  To the extent that I pass on something from them, it is clearly identified as such.


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## vacationhopeful

Robert (aka lcml11),

There is NO "cancel rebook" system.

"Voyager" is a NOT NEW computer system ... just a few different screens on your computer monitor.
The "back end" function (of what you are calling "a system"), has not changed. Voyager is at most a new interface for easier use by end users. (or as another TUGGER posted a front end able to handle interfaces to multiple end user devices ... cell phones, tablets, Apple computers, Windows, Android, etc.)

There are many TUG participants who have serious computer backgrounds and experience plus more than a few CPAs (i.e. fancy accountants).

I still have NOT figured out what background you have.


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## ronparise

Voyager has been years in the making. I'm betting  it's more than just the user interface


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## lcml11

vacationhopeful said:


> Robert (aka lcml11),
> 
> There is NO "cancel rebook" system.
> 
> "Voyager" is a NOT NEW computer system ... just a few different screens on your computer monitor.
> The "back end" function (of what you are calling "a system"), has not changed. Voyager is at most a new interface for easier use by end users. (or as another TUGGER posted a front end able to handle interfaces to multiple end user devices ... cell phones, tablets, Apple computers, Windows, Android, etc.)
> 
> There are many TUG participants who have serious computer backgrounds and experience plus more than a few CPAs (i.e. fancy accountants).
> 
> I still have NOT figured out what background you have.



Last point first, I have a couple sons that do the accounting thing, I think I know what a CPA is.  

Here are a few highlights of my background:

Golden Gate University, Masters of Business Administration 
University of Pittsburgh, BA Economics 
University of Pittsburgh, BA Political Science

FEMA Emergency Management Institute:  FEMA SID is 0000964652

Treasury Learning Management System (TLMS) 73 Credit Course Hours

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: Various training classes from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Pennsylvania Human Relation Commission, and the Department of Public Welfare pertaining to illegal discrimination, Medical Assistance, and Food Stamps.

United States Air Force: Training including Effective Writing Courses, Human 
Communications, Security Training, Workshop, Documentation Management Training, Administrative Management Course, Computers and Data Processing

Real Estate Courses Completed: Real Estate Fundamentals (30 hours of credit) and Real Estate Practice (30 credit hours of credit) United States Air Force Education and Training 48 Courses

Experienced in US Treasury software programs TCIS, PEGA, Check Registry, TLMS, and Dashboard.

Experienced with programs used by the Pa. Department of Public Welfare related to Food Stamps and SSI. 

Experienced with the Pa Human Relations Commission Automated Computer program.

Experienced in a number of other software programs including Lotus Notes, data based programs, and Microsoft Office Suite programs, and a number of Government based programs, including Department of the Navy Emergency Management Dispatch system and the Worldwide Military Command and Control System.

*Automated numerous Units in the Air Force*

*RLGB, LLC; *Managing Member since 2009. This is a property/timeshare holding company.

*Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: *From 3-19-1990 - 12-2011 (Retired)

*United States Air Force:  From 6-25-1978 to August 31, 1989: *


----------



## Jan M.

The same IT department that can't fix the existing system is working on Voyager so I fail to see how the Voyager system will magically be better. I've been hearing for years that Voyager is coming and it still isn't functional. I remember talking to a VC about three years ago and was told that the IT people working on it are the only ones allowed in the room, that security was very high, they weren't allowed to talk to anyone about what they are working on and even the windows and door are covered so no one can see in. I don't have any IT background but it seems implausible to me that it takes three years if not more to develop and implement a workable computer program.

They promised Voyager would be up and running by the next annual owners meeting and just coincidentally moved the meeting to August. As that first week of August is prime vacation time it will be hard to get reservations. And let's face it the majority of owners at the meeting are older and typically don't care for the heat and humidity of Orlando in August. Also the meeting is being held at a new location so we won't be able to walk over from Bonnet Creek. Maybe they are just buying time to get Voyager up and running or maybe they are hoping to discourage attendance at the meeting. Yes I'm that cynical at this point.


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> And let's face it the majority of owners at the meeting are older and typically don't care for the heat and humidity of Orlando in August. .



You should know that Florida has been called gods waiting room because since Mr Carrier developed air conditioning, so many of us "older" folks come here to die. 
 we do ok with the heat and humidity; what with air conditioned houses and cars and such


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## Marathoner

Jan M. said:


> I remember talking to a VC about three years ago and was told that the IT people working on it are the only ones allowed in the room, that security was very high, they weren't allowed to talk to anyone about what they are working on and even the windows and door are covered so no one can see in.



Ha ha.  I work professionally with computer programmers and I can guarantee this is not the way the software development takes place. This is a timeshare system that will be used by the public, not a national security encryption system or a proprietary algo trading strategy designed to make millions for Goldman Sachs.  

The VC was trying to entertain herself while she gave you a story that would satisfy you for a while.


----------



## Jan M.

ronparise said:


> You should know that Florida has been called gods waiting room because since Mr Carrier developed air conditioning, so many of us "older" folks come here to die.
> we do ok with the heat and humidity; what with air conditioned houses and cars and such



I live in Florida and I'm not personally acquainted with anyone who is overly fond of the heat and humidity of August and September in Florida. The area from Miami to West Palm Beach almost always has a nice breeze even if you live about 10 miles inland like we do. I remember when we were considering moving to Florida and were told if we made it through the second summer that we would be fine. The first year we lived down here I remember thinking in June and July that it really wasn't bad. Then came August and September.  When occasionally the breeze died I understood what they meant! Orlando is far enough inland that it doesn't get a breeze from the ocean,.


----------



## Jan M.

Marathoner said:


> Ha ha.  I work professionally with computer programmers and I can guarantee this is not the way the software development takes place. This is a timeshare system that will be used by the public, not a national security encryption system or a proprietary algo trading strategy designed to make millions for Goldman Sachs.
> 
> The VC was trying to entertain herself while she gave you a story that would satisfy you for a while.



You just confirmed my suspicions! I mentioned that I had heard about a program called Voyager but didn't know what it was. I was told that the employees didn't know any concrete details either just rumors. The person talked about how it was a different department and seemed very hush hush. I too thought it seemed a bit ridiculous to have that much secrecy so a few months later I asked an acquaintance who has connections in Wyndham about Voyager. He laughed and said don't hold your breath. A year or two later when Voyager still was "in the works" I came to the conclusion that if what the VC said was true then it was very likely that they were just trying to hide that they weren't actually doing anything!


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> I live in Florida and I'm not personally acquainted with anyone who is overly fond of the heat and humidity of August and September in Florida. The area from Miami to West Palm Beach almost always has a nice breeze even if you live about 10 miles inland like we do. I remember when we were considering moving to Florida and were told if we made it through the second summer that we would be fine. The first year we lived down here I remember thinking in June and July that it really wasn't bad. Then came August and September.  When occasionally the breeze dies I understood what they meant!y meant! Orlando is far enough inland that it doesn't get a breeze from the ocean,.



Maybe because I came from Washington DC  Florida doesn't seem so bad. The summers here aren't any different than there. Longer, but no hotter or more humid

My point is that the air conditioned conference room in Orlando will  fill up in August just as it did last May and most of the people there will have gray hair


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Voyager has been years in the making. I'm betting  it's more than just the user interface



I am sure you are right.  Many posters over the years have addressed Voyager in various forms.  If Voyager "is at most a new interface for easier use by end users" then Wyndham has made a big fuss over very little.

The following appears near the bottom of the page of the link listed above pertaining to the preview of Voyager.

"THIS ADVERTISING MATERIAL IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOLICITING SALES OF TIMESHARE INTERESTS."

There are some posts discussing Wyndham Sales Force using or referring to Voyager in the sales process.

Therefore, it appears to me, that it is at least a marking tool for the purpose of soliciting sales of timeshare interests.

As for the claim that ""Voyager" is a NOT NEW computer system ... just a few different screens on your computer monitor.", I doubt that this is a true statement.


----------



## ecwinch

We are justing going off the functionality they have exposed via the preview. Which is extremely limited and does not expose the critical system functions regarding searching available inventory, reservation transactions, depositing pts into RCI, etc.


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> We are justing going off the functionality they have exposed via the preview. Which is extremely limited and does not expose the critical system functions regarding searching available inventory, reservation transactions, depositing pts into RCI, etc.



I suspect some other components of what was to be Voyager have already been included in the old system.  I would not expect a lot of radical changes to be added to the final rolled out version of Voyager.  It remains to be seen if this system is targeting the Mega Renters.

I suspect the current problems with to many points going into some accounts may be the results of changes made to the old system that were designed to be part of Voyager.

In other words, what some people are afraid is coming, to the extent that is going to happen, are already in the system.

The component relating to RCI points, I have never really understood, not through lack of trying by the way, and I think those changes occurred a long time ago.

Search availability changes may be focused primarily around the ARP system and I am looking forward to the component to become available.

The possible reduction of Club Wyndham Plus inventory in favor of Club Wyndham Access is probably more of a policy process and sales pitch than a Voyager issue.

Do not have a clue on what is going on with Reservation Transactions.


----------



## happyhopian

I love reading these ping pong posts comparing everyone speculation and calling others out on what they do or do not know but this is giving me a headache watching all these good folks get wound up, betting and daring each other about total speculation. So let's all take a moment and be honest for a second - no one KNOWS what IS or is NOT going to happen tomorrow or next year at Wyndham (and I'm including Wyndham folks).

A lot of respectable folks are throwing down a lot of shade on total hypothesis. No matter how many times they have talked about Voyager at meetings Ron (whom I have lots of respect for)  - it STILL is not here. FACT, It has missed EVERY deadline which has been stated to you. FACT. HOW do you as a VERY respectable person continue to believe what you are told? Are they going to launch something called voyager which will have something to do with a new booking system YES some day they will. Will they change the website YES. Will they change the backend, Maybe. But wanting to bet that Voyager is coming is like me saying there will be nuclear war one day - of course there will be, but when and how will it impact everyone and NONE of us know that and how the hell can anyone trust what we've been told based on their abysmal track record from corporate to sales. 

1. The new preview says stay tuned for what will be launched next year and that entry on the website is dated February of THIS year so we need to be looking 2018 at the earliest based on this FACT. Of course I don't see how anyone, including Wyndham can believe what they say or print. Either way we know they are not even claiming this year.

2. Voyager has been coming since 2011. I only know that dates as it was the first time it was first mentioned to me in an owner update and I almost swallowed the bait on an upgrade to the 'vip points going away except on developer purchases). Let's all agree as FACT that this, whatever it is, has been a LONG time delayed, hence my reason for doubt #1 above as to even next year.

3. Wyndham has serious accounting/inventory/point issues that they clearly cannot figure out. This is a fact based on the thousands of posts in this thread alone. No one, NO ONE (not even the idiots at Wyndham) would roll out a new software package unless they can determine and resolve the problems being created in inventory for fear that they will replicate over again. AND before anyone says it - of course someone is going to say-  "well the new system will probably be the fix for that"-- the fix for WHAT? They don't know what's wrong. Now I know this seems far fetched but remember we are talking about WYNDHAM - of course they don't know what's going on. They've told all these people they don't have a resolution to the problem, and we've confirmed it's still going on. Even Ron who has 'settled' is still locked out, can't do anything and has no explanation from Wyndham as to what happened or what they have done to correct it on the many different reasons everyone may or may not be in their own lockout problem. FACT: They can't fix what they don't know is wrong.

4. They just had a major leadership change. This was all birthed under old leadership. Anyone who has ever worked in a corporate or military world knows that when the top changes, things down stream change. The new guy/gal wants to put his name on it and have ownership. God knows we have all seen this with Wyndham over the years. Fact: New guy at top, things are going to get reviewed AGAIN.

5. None of us --NO ONE has any clue about anything going on in Wyndham corporate. Don't claim to and for God sakes Robert, and I do like your posts, PLEASE do not believe ANYTHING a VC or OC tells you. Remember these are the same folks who will tell you that Cancel Re-book is not allowed,  until you call back and get another on the phone. They are the same ones who will tell you that you cannot place a hold on a deluxe room rental with do not move, until you call back and get another that does know this is allowed. These are the same folks who will tell you that cancelled credit pool points get a new expiration date of the longest date when they go back in pool after cancellation, or that they go back to the original date, or that go back to the original contract and sometimes will admit they don't know. FACT: VC and OC folks are a total hit and miss for accuracy and honesty.

In summary - none of us knows anything (I don't care HOW MANY MEETINGS we've all been to and been told this is coming) so let's understand and all agree that we are speculating as to what might or might not be. No one knows anymore than anyone else. Everyone can dream and that is what each of us are doing. 

Ron you have made this point and I think it the golden thought for me but I'm going to expand upon it --- for many years Wyndham has been trying to overhaul their system with no success. Each year the system wears down a little more, rules change and they try to make amends. The name voyager sits upon a department directory in Orlando. There is a preview website that is not functional beyond providing information in a different modernized look. There is a post on this same website saying that the full roll out will be next year - in a post dated 2017, so this MUST mean 2018. Lots of people are having problems, which we know that as of this month are still happening. And let us not forget what started TUGBBS - timeshare people lie. (Sometimes knowingly and sometimes just repeating what they've been told). 

Finally - who cares what they roll out? I mean all this talk about limiting VIP points and cancel/rebook and waiting list and one and one - boo! I mean there isn't poop any of us can do about it, right? When it happens, just like everything else, smart people will find a new plan and a new way to make money. Or we can all move over to another time share company - or God forbid, we go back to doing what we were doing before Wyndham.

This last fact: there has NEVER been a law passed for which a loop hole was not also created. We will all be ok, maybe better, maybe worse. Maybe we will still own Wyndham, maybe we will all give it back and go do something else. Really - was it that long ago. Do none of you remember a life before Wyndham? IF the worst case scenario is that you sell out or quit, is that really that awful? If you think so, then I need you to come with me to the children's hospital for my next volunteer day.

Now BACK to speculating


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Dear Happyhopian,
Nice summary of 1465 posts , and still growing .

As a TUG member / reader of this thread from about week 1 / and none Wyndham owner - I appreciate 
your insightful thoughts . 

Nice post for your number 82 - looking forward to 83


----------



## lcml11

happyhopian said:


> ... 5. None of us --NO ONE has any clue about anything going on in Wyndham corporate. Don't claim to and for God sakes Robert, and I do like your posts, PLEASE do not believe ANYTHING a VC or OC tells you. Remember these are the same folks who will tell you that Cancel Re-book is not allowed,  until you call back and get another on the phone. They are the same ones who will tell you that you cannot place a hold on a deluxe room rental with do not move, until you call back and get another that does know this is allowed. These are the same folks who will tell you that cancelled credit pool points get a new expiration date of the longest date when they go back in pool after cancellation, or that they go back to the original date, or that go back to the original contract and sometimes will admit they don't know. FACT: VC and OC folks are a total hit and miss for accuracy and honesty...



I am very picky on what I actually believe and am flexible enough to change my mind, if wrong.  I do not believe the Captain should go down with the ship.  The rats that jump ship are probably the wise one.  

Rebuttal time for Ron?


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> I love reading these ping pong posts comparing everyone speculation and calling others out on what they do or do not know but this is giving me a headache watching all these good folks get wound up, betting and daring each other about total speculation. So let's all take a moment and be honest for a second - no one KNOWS what IS or is NOT going to happen tomorrow or next year at Wyndham (and I'm including Wyndham folks).
> 
> A lot of respectable folks are throwing down a lot of shade on total hypothesis. No matter how many times they have talked about Voyager at meetings Ron (whom I have lots of respect for)  - it STILL is not here. FACT, It has missed EVERY deadline which has been stated to you. FACT. HOW do you as a VERY respectable person continue to believe what you are told? Are they going to launch something called voyager which will have something to do with a new booking system YES some day they will. Will they change the website YES. Will they change the backend, Maybe. But wanting to bet that Voyager is coming is like me saying there will be nuclear war one day - of course there will be, but when and how will it impact everyone and NONE of us know that and how the hell can anyone trust what we've been told based on their abysmal track record from corporate to sales.
> 
> 1. The new preview says stay tuned for what will be launched next year and that entry on the website is dated February of THIS year so we need to be looking 2018 at the earliest based on this FACT. Of course I don't see how anyone, including Wyndham can believe what they say or print. Either way we know they are not even claiming this year.
> 
> 2. Voyager has been coming since 2011. I only know that dates as it was the first time it was first mentioned to me in an owner update and I almost swallowed the bait on an upgrade to the 'vip points going away except on developer purchases). Let's all agree as FACT that this, whatever it is, has been a LONG time delayed, hence my reason for doubt #1 above as to even next year.
> 
> 3. Wyndham has serious accounting/inventory/point issues that they clearly cannot figure out. This is a fact based on the thousands of posts in this thread alone. No one, NO ONE (not even the idiots at Wyndham) would roll out a new software package unless they can determine and resolve the problems being created in inventory for fear that they will replicate over again. AND before anyone says it - of course someone is going to say-  "well the new system will probably be the fix for that"-- the fix for WHAT? They don't know what's wrong. Now I know this seems far fetched but remember we are talking about WYNDHAM - of course they don't know what's going on. They've told all these people they don't have a resolution to the problem, and we've confirmed it's still going on. Even Ron who has 'settled' is still locked out, can't do anything and has no explanation from Wyndham as to what happened or what they have done to correct it on the many different reasons everyone may or may not be in their own lockout problem. FACT: They can't fix what they don't know is wrong.
> 
> 4. They just had a major leadership change. This was all birthed under old leadership. Anyone who has ever worked in a corporate or military world knows that when the top changes, things down stream change. The new guy/gal wants to put his name on it and have ownership. God knows we have all seen this with Wyndham over the years. Fact: New guy at top, things are going to get reviewed AGAIN.
> 
> 5. None of us --NO ONE has any clue about anything going on in Wyndham corporate. Don't claim to and for God sakes Robert, and I do like your posts, PLEASE do not believe ANYTHING a VC or OC tells you. Remember these are the same folks who will tell you that Cancel Re-book is not allowed,  until you call back and get another on the phone. They are the same ones who will tell you that you cannot place a hold on a deluxe room rental with do not move, until you call back and get another that does know this is allowed. These are the same folks who will tell you that cancelled credit pool points get a new expiration date of the longest date when they go back in pool after cancellation, or that they go back to the original date, or that go back to the original contract and sometimes will admit they don't know. FACT: VC and OC folks are a total hit and miss for accuracy and honesty.
> 
> In summary - none of us knows anything (I don't care HOW MANY MEETINGS we've all been to and been told this is coming) so let's understand and all agree that we are speculating as to what might or might not be. No one knows anymore than anyone else. Everyone can dream and that is what each of us are doing.
> 
> Ron you have made this point and I think it the golden thought for me but I'm going to expand upon it --- for many years Wyndham has been trying to overhaul their system with no success. Each year the system wears down a little more, rules change and they try to make amends. The name voyager sits upon a department directory in Orlando. There is a preview website that is not functional beyond providing information in a different modernized look. There is a post on this same website saying that the full roll out will be next year - in a post dated 2017, so this MUST mean 2018. Lots of people are having problems, which we know that as of this month are still happening. And let us not forget what started TUGBBS - timeshare people lie. (Sometimes knowingly and sometimes just repeating what they've been told).
> 
> Finally - who cares what they roll out? I mean all this talk about limiting VIP points and cancel/rebook and waiting list and one and one - boo! I mean there isn't poop any of us can do about it, right? When it happens, just like everything else, smart people will find a new plan and a new way to make money. Or we can all move over to another time share company - or God forbid, we go back to doing what we were doing before Wyndham.
> 
> This last fact: there has NEVER been a law passed for which a loop hole was not also created. We will all be ok, maybe better, maybe worse. Maybe we will still own Wyndham, maybe we will all give it back and go do something else. Really - was it that long ago. Do none of you remember a life before Wyndham? IF the worst case scenario is that you sell out or quit, is that really that awful? If you think so, then I need you to come with me to the children's hospital for my next volunteer day.
> 
> Now BACK to speculating



I think Im probably the guy that brought up voyager in this thread..  As you suggest I think its a real thing and I think its going to happen sometime in 2017, but I could be wrong, but I dont think so (I thought I was wrong once but as it turned out I was wrong about that) Bottom line, it dosent matter whether Im right or wrong

The reason I brought up voyager in this thread had nothing to do with speculation on what voyager will or will not do, or when or if it will ever happen. What I was trying to do is offer a possible explanation for why resolution of the suspensions mess was taking so long

I think we all agree what caused an account to be suspended was having more points to make reservations with (and points in reservations) in an account than can be justified by the annual allocation of points for the contracts owned.  ie "extra" points.  To resolve this mess Wyndham has to do three things,  1) figure  out how the "extra" points were generated  2) take back the extra points and most importantly 3) make sure it can never happen again

I offered a hypothisis. I assume Wyndham now knows that the "extra" points were due,  in part,  to computer errors and since they have a new computer system in the final stages of development, my best guess is that instead of fixing the old system, they are waiting for the new system


Voyager may fix the problem, or may not. Voyager may come out this year or may not, Voyager may be just a pretty new website or maybe more, but that has nothing to do with what Im suggesting. Which, once again, is that Wyndham may be delaying resolution of the suspensions mess until Voyager is introduced.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> I am very picky on what I actually believe and am flexible enough to change my mind, if wrong.  I do not believe the Captain should go down with the ship.  The rats that jump ship are probably the wise one.
> 
> Rebuttal time for Ron?



I would agree or disagree with what you are saying, but I dont know what that is
Im pretty slow, and in my old age Ive gotten slower, so it took me a while to figure out that lcml11 is the old RRLongwell reincarnated.  Welcome back old friend. I see your comments are every bit as inscrutable as they ever were. so let me answer in kind









This thread started back in august with the original post asking the question.  Has anyone else gotten a suspension email? . We've gone on for nearly 60 pages trying to figure out the "who" and the "why" of this question. The discussion has explored a number of possibilities.  and we are left with the one unanswered question... why is it taking so long?

You dropped into this discussion just a few pages ago  and now you invite my Rebuttal.  So far I have nothing  to rebut, because I have no idea what you are saying.  What is your answer or position on the following questions

1) The original question...have you been suspended?
2) why did wyndham suspend some accounts?, and how many?
3) do the suspended accounts have anything in common?, what?
4) What is Wyndham doing to resolve these suspensions
5) What is Wyndham doing to prevent this from happening again
6) Do the suspensions have anything to do with renting or megarenters
7) Do other owners (unsuspended) have anything to worry about?
8) What is the likely resolution?
9) why is it taking so long

You should know we have talked these subjects to death  and i think except for #9, we have come to some consensus answers. 
Its clear you have something to say. If its to add to the discussion or provide new answers to the questions especially #9, by all means post your thoughts, but if you have something to say that is off the topic of this thread, why dont you just start a new thread.


----------



## happyhopian

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Dear Happyhopian,
> Nice summary of 1465 posts , and still growing .
> 
> As a TUG member / reader of this thread from about week 1 / and none Wyndham owner - I appreciate
> your insightful thoughts .
> 
> Nice post for your number 82 - looking forward to 83



You're welcome but it wasn't a summary of this thread. In fact this whole voyager speculation has nothing to do with this thread and it seems to be stirring up folks that serves no point.

Maybe one day I'll grow up to be like you -  a posting leader here and remain a Wyndham owner 

Have a blessed day


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> I would agree of disagree with what you are saying, but I dont know what that is
> Im pretty slow, and in my old age Ive gotten slower, so it took me a while to figure out that lcml11 is the old RRLongwell reincarnated.  Welcome back old friend. I see your comments are every bit as inscrutable as they ever were. so let me answer in kind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread started back in august with the original post asking the question.  Has anyone else gotten a suspension email? . We've gone on for nearly 60 pages trying to figure out the "who" and the "why" of this question. The discussion has explored a number of possibilities.  and we are left with the one unanswered question... why is it taking so long?
> 
> You dropped into this discussion just a few pages ago  and now you invite my Rebuttal.  So far I have nothing  to rebut, because I have no idea what you are saying.  What is your answer or position on the following questions
> 
> 1) The original question...have you been suspended?
> 2) why did wyndham suspend some accounts?, and how many?
> 3) do the suspended accounts have anything in common?, what?
> 4) What is Wyndham doing to resolve these suspensions
> 5) What is Wyndham doing to prevent this from happening again
> 6) Do the suspensions have anything to do with renting or megarenters
> 7) Do other owners (unsuspended) have anything to worry about?
> 8) What is the likely resolution?
> 9) why is it taking so long
> 
> You should know we have talked these subjects to death  and i think except for #9, we have come to some consensus answers.
> Its clear you have something to say. If its to add to the discussion or provide new answers to the questions especially #9, by all means post your thoughts, but if you have something to say that is off the topic of this thread, why dont you just start a new thread.



Ron I think you nailed exactly what this thread was supposed to be about but I'm not supposed to offer my thoughts until I get more posts (even though I own 3 million points and pay $1,700 a month in Maint fees ) I guess it's all about how much one posts to determine They're knowledge or investment 

On another note, what was the date of the next meeting. I will be in Orlando for August. Did you say it was then?


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I would agree of disagree with what you are saying, but I dont know what that is
> Im pretty slow, and in my old age Ive gotten slower, so it took me a while to figure out that lcml11 is the old RRLongwell reincarnated.  Welcome back old friend. I see your comments are every bit as inscrutable as they ever were. so let me answer in kind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread started back in august with the original post asking the question.  Has anyone else gotten a suspension email? . We've gone on for nearly 60 pages trying to figure out the "who" and the "why" of this question. The discussion has explored a number of possibilities.  and we are left with the one unanswered question... why is it taking so long?
> 
> You dropped into this discussion just a few pages ago  and now you invite my Rebuttal.  So far I have nothing  to rebut, because I have no idea what you are saying.  What is your answer or position on the following questions
> 
> 1) The original question...have you been suspended?
> 2) why did wyndham suspend some accounts?, and how many?
> 3) do the suspended accounts have anything in common?, what?
> 4) What is Wyndham doing to resolve these suspensions
> 5) What is Wyndham doing to prevent this from happening again
> 6) Do the suspensions have anything to do with renting or megarenters
> 7) Do other owners (unsuspended) have anything to worry about?
> 8) What is the likely resolution?
> 9) why is it taking so long
> 
> You should know we have talked these subjects to death  and i think except for #9, we have come to some consensus answers.
> Its clear you have something to say. If its to add to the discussion or provide new answers to the questions especially #9, by all means post your thoughts, but if you have something to say that is off the topic of this thread, why dont you just start a new thread.



I have not been suspended from point use for question 1.  The restriction I mention was years ago and the restriction does not go away with time as far as know.  I have run into it relatively recently.  The other questions should be addressed to others.  Some of question, I believe have been, in whole or part, answered by others.  I am posting to the Voyager Thread so a new thread is not needed that is started by me.  For what it is worth (probably nothing) to the extent Wyndham intends to let suspended accounts use their points - with limited restrictions, this probably has already been done.  To the extent that they have not modified the suspension, they may not intend to (Question 9).


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron I think you nailed exactly what this thread was supposed to be about but I'm not supposed to offer my thoughts until I get more posts (even though I own 3 million points and pay $1,700 a month in Maint fees ) I guess it's all about how much one posts to determine They're knowledge or investment
> 
> On another note, what was the date of the next meeting. I will be in Orlando for August. Did you say it was then?



I didn't say. I assumed May but someone else said August.

Dosent matter much to me any more

You of course can post anytime and on any subject you wish, without objection. I tried to limit this thread to just Wyndham owners and just those owners impacted by the suspension. That wasn't well received. Too many posts are from those watching this train wreck and rejoicing in our misfortune or from those that have no idea what they are talking about; and I'm not crazy about that.  But, no matter, to maintain the sinking ship analogy, that ship has sailed


----------



## Jan M.

happyhopian said:


> On another note, what was the date of the next meeting. I will be in Orlando for August. Did you say it was then?



August 2, 2017 which is a Wednesday. I've only been to the last few owners meetings and they were on Friday. Maybe OP have been going to them longer than I have and can tell me if this midweek date is something new.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I didn't say. I assumed May but someone else said August.
> 
> Dosent matter much to me any more
> 
> You of course can post anytime and on any subject you wish, without objection. I tried to limit this thread to just Wyndham owners and just those owners impacted by the suspension. That wasn't well received. Too many posts are from those watching this train wreck and rejoicing in our misfortune or from those that have no idea what they are talking about; and I'm not crazy about that.  But, no matter, to maintain the sinking ship analogy, that ship has sailed



Hopefully, the ship is not sinking.  Regarding your point number 6 above, mega renters may be a factor.  I  think this maybe possible because we have a few family members on deeds and some deeds are in the LLC Holding Company name.  After working with Wyndam under the Voyager Preview feature to get different sign on paths for each owner, the issue was not resolved.  My wife and I were permitted different log-ins.  The LLC and owner entries on the old system that shows LLC involvement did not work.  They contacted the site management people and they indicated this was a known issue.  I still would not rule out the suspensions and to many points in some accounts are not related to the roll-out of Voyager in pieces.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Hopefully, the ship is not sinking.  Regarding your point number 6 above, mega renters may be a factor.  I  think this maybe possible because we have a few family members on deeds and some deeds are in the LLC Holding Company name.  After working with Wyndam under the Voyager Preview feature to get different sign on paths for each owner, the issue was not resolved.  My wife and I were permitted different log-ins.  The LLC and owner entries on the old system that shows LLC involvement did not work.  They contacted the site management people and they indicated this was a known issue.  I still would not rule out the suspensions and to many points in some accounts are not related to the roll-out of Voyager in pieces.




You gotta catch up Robert. Read all 59 pages of this thread and I think you will see This was not about renting, mega or otherwise.  That a number of us were caught in this net has to do more with the activity in the accounts. I.e. The number of cancellations we do and the number or reservations we make. That and the aggressive use of the credit pool to use future points today(without paying maintenance fees) Who sleeps in the units is not so important

Consider that 3 of my accounts were suspended and 3 were not. And all 6 were platinum accounts used for rentals what cause the three to be suspended had to have been something other than that they were used to generate a rental income, otherwise all 6 would have been suspended

And I know mega renters that were not affected and mega renters suspended in August but now "thawed" so they can go back to renting  as well as owners that never rented but were suspended

Having said that. I think Wyndham was surprised that so many of the suspended  accounts belonged to mega renters. And I think one reason resolution is taking so long is that they are using this mess to collect information on how we do what we do so they can come back in the future to make more rule changes to limit renting

Oh and be assured the Wyndham ship is not sinking


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> You gotta catch up Robert. Read all 69 pages of this thread and I think you will see This was not about renting, mega or otherwise.  That a number of us were caught in this net has to do more with the activity in the accounts. I.e. The number of cancellations we do and the number or reservations we make. That and the aggressive use of the credit pool to use future points today(without paying maintenance fees) Who sleeps in the units is not so important
> 
> Consider that 3 of my accounts were suspended and 3 were not. And all 6 were platinum accounts used for rentals what cause the three to be suspended had to have been something other than that they were used to generate a rental income, otherwise all 6 would have been suspended
> 
> And I know mega renters that were not affected and mega renters suspended in August but now "thawed" so they can go back to renting  as well as owners that never rented but were suspended
> 
> Having said that. I think Wyndham was surprised that so many of the suspended  accounts belonged to mega renters. And I think one reason resolution is taking so long is that they are using this mess to collect information on how we do what we do so they can come back in the future to make more rule changes to limit renting
> 
> Oh and be assured the Wyndham ship is not sinking



Good to hear that not all of your accounts are affected.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Good to hear that not all of your accounts are affected.


Oh but they are.  Because I disclosed them


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Oh but they are.  Because I disclosed them



Let no good deed go unpunished I think is the old saying.

Putting a bad joke aside, I think people are still better off in the long run to provide feedback on their accounts through the preview site.

This creates a record that hopefully problems can be properly identified and resolved.

The preview site, towards the bottom of the page, is indicating people should review their accounts.


----------



## happyhopian

Jan M. said:


> August 2, 2017 which is a Wednesday. I've only been to the last few owners meetings and they were on Friday. Maybe OP have been going to them longer than I have and can tell me if this midweek date is something new.



HA HA - I WILL be there and have a load of questions to ask. Can't wait for that thread to open up (of course I'll have to ask for permission to post as I might only be to 90 posts by then)


----------



## lcml11

happyhopian said:


> HA HA - I WILL be there and have a load of questions to ask. Can't wait for that thread to open up (of course I'll have to ask for permission to post as I might only be to 90 posts by then)



Suggest to whoever told you that to worry about other things.


----------



## Jan M.

happyhopian said:


> HA HA - I WILL be there and have a load of questions to ask. Can't wait for that thread to open up (of course I'll have to ask for permission to post as I might only be to 90 posts by then)



There isn't an open question and answer period anymore. After lunch there are now small closed off areas for that. Wyndham suits were standing at the entrances of those areas. Not sure if their intent was to keep an eye out for troublemakers or to just keep the people getting wine, desserts and visiting the booths/tables from wandering in and disrupting things.


----------



## raygo123

Jan M. said:


> There isn't an open question and answer period anymore. After lunch there are now small closed off areas for that. Wyndham suits were standing at the entrances of those areas. Not sure if their intent was to keep an eye out for troublemakers or to just keep the people getting wine, desserts and visiting the booths/tables from wandering in and disrupting things.


Do they at least tell you the topic discussed in each area?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

Any one who has been responsible for a conversion from a legacy system to a "new" system knows the path we are on, and recognizes the warning signs when a migration starts heading toward the rocks.

There is a reason that when you go into some financial institutions you will see them running green screen applications on modern PC's. System migrations are very complicated, and a decent percentage never get to see the light of day. My former boss used to talk about how system migrations were like heart transplants - not everyone survives.

Be optimistic if you want, but based on my experience, none of the signs are positive. And rushing in a new system to solve a problem you seemingly cannot diagnose in the old system is a recipe for disaster. Simply because some developers will simply copy what the old system did, lacking the business expertise to build a better mousetrap.


----------



## Bigrob

lcml11 said:


> The cancel return routine hopefully will be redone or patched quickly so this ends.
> 
> Does the preview of Voyager show the same as the old system on this point?



There's no transaction component to the preview of the new system so we don't know.


----------



## Jan M.

raygo123 said:


> Do they at least tell you the topic discussed in each area?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



Sorry but I don't know. At lunch I've enjoyed talking to the people at my table and never joined the discussion groups. I always figured if there was anything said worth hearing someone on TUG would be posting about it.


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> Sorry but I don't know. At lunch I've enjoyed talking to the people at my table and never joined the discussion groups. I always figured if there was anything said worth hearing someone on TUG would be posting about it.


This year may be different because of the suspensions but the question and answer sessions have been pretty predictable. There will be complaints about sales and someone will complain about fake service dogs. And of course high maintenance fees but most of the questions deal with individual problems

I've always been surprised at the number of VIPs that attend and that no one seems to know about the secondary market. Spend a few weeks on TUG and you will know more than nearly everyone there


----------



## Jan M.

ronparise said:


> This year may be different because of the suspensions but the question and answer sessions have been pretty predictable. There will be complaints about sales and someone will complain about fake service dogs. And of course high maintenance fees but most of the questions deal with individual problems.
> 
> I've always been surprised at the number of VIPs that attend and that no one seems to know about the secondary market. Spend a few weeks on TUG and you will know more than nearly everyone there



I agree with you about many of the owners at the annual meetings. It is kind of sad to see the number of attendees who listen intently like they are learning valuable information. The general meeting content can be summed up as look at how wonderful we are, Wyndham corporate we, what wonderful things we are doing for you and what a fantastic job we've done arranging this whole meeting for you (which of course we are paying for). Except of the reading of the budget which I think they are required by law to do in an open meeting, it is essentially just like any other big promotional marketing seminar. The purpose of it is to pump us up, give us some prizes, give us a nice free meal, have us visit the vendor tables to get our freebees and keep drinking that koolaid. I continue to go to the annual owner meetings because I do learn useful information from talking to the other owners and I truly enjoy meeting them.


----------



## lcml11

Jan M. said:


> I agree with you about many of the owners at the annual meetings. It is kind of sad to see the number of attendees who listen intently like they are learning valuable information. The general meeting content can be summed up as look at how wonderful we are, Wyndham corporate we, what wonderful things we are doing for you and what a fantastic job we've done arranging this whole meeting for you (which of course we are paying for). Except of the reading of the budget which I think they are required by law to do in an open meeting, it is essentially just like any other big promotional marketing seminar. The purpose of it is to pump us up, give us some prizes, give us a nice free meal, have us visit the vendor tables to get our freebees and keep drinking that koolaid. I continue to go to the annual owner meetings because I do learn useful information from talking to the other owners and I truly enjoy meeting them.



I do not know Fl law but as a owner you can attend.  The space is limited so all owners cannot attend even if they all wanted to.


----------



## raygo123

lcml11 said:


> I do not know Fl law but as a owner you can attend.  The space is limited so all owners cannot attend even if they all wanted to.


I wonder how far one would have to park if all showed up?  Let alone stay!

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> I wonder how far one would have to park if all showed up?  Let alone stay!
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


They will provide transportation from the resorts (maybe not reunion).


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> They will provide transportation from the resorts (maybe not reunion).


Wyndham would need a whole bunch a busses for 1,000,000 owners!

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> Wyndham would need a whole bunch a busses for 1,000,000 owners!
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


They cut off registrations at about 1000.


----------



## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> They cut off registrations at about 1000.


Imagine what would happen if they did that on the WM side.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> They cut off registrations at about 1000.



Most of the 1000 where probably taken quickly by major players.


----------



## ronparise

ecwinch said:


> Imagine what would happen if they did that on the WM side.



The room is only so big. So there are practical limits on attendence. I may be wrong about the number;  I was responding to the post that talked about needing a lot of busses for a million owners.i do know they cut off registrations at some number and that the number is less than a million. 

But your point is well taken. Wyndham  did cut off registrations; Worldmark didn't and I'm sure you are right Worldmark owners would freak 

I think the reason they can get away with an "everybody is welcome" policy at Worldmark is that almost nobody cares


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> The room is only so big. So there are practical limits on attendence. I may be wrong about the number;  I was responding to the post that talked about needing a lot of busses for a million owners.i do know they cut off registrations at some number and that the number is less than a million.
> 
> But your point is well taken. Wyndham  did cut off registrations; Worldmark didn't and I'm sure you are right Worldmark owners would freak
> 
> I think the reason they can get away with an "everybody is welcome" policy at Worldmark is that almost nobody cares


And I was merely poking at the comment on Florida law, everyone has the right to attend.  I didn't think it was a voting meeting.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> And I was merely poking at the comment on Florida law, everyone has the right to attend.  I didn't think it was a voting meeting.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



As you know we don't vote at the club level.  Can you imagine wmowners with no voting and no politics

We do of course have hoas and can vote at the resort level. We owners don't have much input there either because Club Wyndham Access  owns enough that they control many of the hoas

CWA members do vote at the CWA meetings and there is one owner on that board


----------



## Jan M.

ronparise said:


> The room is only so big. So there are practical limits on attendence. I may be wrong about the number;  I was responding to the post that talked about needing a lot of busses for a million owners.i do know they cut off registrations at some number and that the number is less than a million.
> 
> But your point is well taken. Wyndham  did cut off registrations; Worldmark didn't and I'm sure you are right Worldmark owners would freak
> 
> I think the reason they can get away with an "everybody is welcome" policy at Worldmark is that almost nobody cares



Ron, I'm sure you've been to many more of the annual owners meetings than I have and can clarify this for us. Am I remembering correctly that for the past few years it is Peter Hernandez who reads the financial statement? He always begins by apologizing for boring pretty much everyone and says we have to do this. I know there are a lot of laws/regulations in Florida governing timeshares. From his remark it seemed that reading the financial statement was a requirement or maybe it is just that you can't call it an owners meeting if the financial statement isn't reviewed?


----------



## ronparise

Yes Peter Hernandez is the guy

The trust was organized under Arkansas law  not Florida law. Read the trust agreement to learn how the trust is organized and the requirements. By the way the trust agreement, at least the last amendment I have,  calls for the annual meeting to be held on the 3rd Monday in May


​


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> View attachment 3290 View attachment 3291
> 
> 
> Yes Peter Hernandez is the guy
> 
> The trust was organized under Arkansas law  not Florida law. Read the trust agreement to learn how the trust is organized and the requirements. By the way the trust agreement, at least the last amendment I have,  calls for the annual meeting to be held on the 3rd Monday in May​



https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1361658/000095012308005337/y57618exv10w1.htm


----------



## ronparise

I posted earlier in this thread that my accounts showed "extra" points , at least in part, because of the way I used the credit pool. The pool was intended, I said,  to use points you can't use this year,  sometime in the future.   I used the pool to "borrow" future years points and enjoying vacations today with only the promise to pay the maintenance fees sometime in the future. The risk to the club, of course, is that I might not pay those fees

this morning I pulled out the Trust Agreement for another purpose and found this clause regarding the pool

   11.06 *The Points Credit Pool*. The Trustee has established a “*Points Credit Pool*” for the deposit of certain qualified Points that will not be used by a Member. The rules, regulations, guidelines and restrictions for the Points Credit Pool are set forth in the Directory.

So it seems to me that my use of the pool should not have been allowed.  But it was. And when Wyndham looked at my accounts the saw the end result  which was 90 million points in a 10 million point account. There was more to it than just the credit pool but without using the credit pool the way I did, the accounts would not have triggered the suspension

I can only guess that something will be done to restrict the pool to its intended purpose


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> I posted earlier in this thread that my accounts showed "extra" points , at least in part, because of the way I used the credit pool. The pool was intended, I said,  to use points you can't use this year,  sometime in the future.   I used the pool to "borrow" future years points and enjoying vacations today with only the promise to pay the maintenance fees sometime in the future. The risk to the club, of course, is that I might not pay those fees
> 
> this morning I pulled out the Trust Agreement for another purpose and found this clause regarding the pool
> 
> 11.06 *The Points Credit Pool*. The Trustee has established a “*Points Credit Pool*” for the deposit of certain qualified Points that will not be used by a Member. The rules, regulations, guidelines and restrictions for the Points Credit Pool are set forth in the Directory.
> 
> So it seems to me that my use of the pool should not have been allowed.  But it was. And when Wyndham looked at my accounts the saw the end result  which was 90 million points in a 10 million point account. There was more to it than just the credit pool but without using the credit pool the way I did, the accounts would not have triggered the suspension
> 
> I can only guess that something will be done to restrict the pool to its intended purpose



Check out page 341 of the members directory.  It talks of using regular use year points for the credit pool.  It does not talk of the current use year regular points directly.  Therefore, I assume current regular year use points are not the only ones that can be credit pooled under members directory.  The credit pool is a useful feature for some and was basically re-ratified when the cancelled points went away (See supplement to the Member Directory).  I just tested the use of future regular year to the credit pool worked as designed under the preview website. 

https://myclubwyndham.com/ffrweb/pdfs/0194_2015_CW_Directory_Supplement.pdf

"Borrowed Points" is a different provision of the Member's Directory with different rules.  See page 339 of the Member's Directory.  It appears to talk of "Borrowed Points" appling to use the next year's regular points.

If a way was found to use a regular year point for both the credit pool and the borrowed points feature, that could cause a double count.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/356

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/354


----------



## ronparise

Robert I know how it works now. And like you I didn't see anything wrong with it

It's not that I borrowed a few points.and it's not "double" use

 What Wyndham sees is that I "borrowed" the points, made reservations and never paid for them

You can refer back to previous posts of mine to see the possible abuse. 

 I'm saying is that Wyndham could prevent that behavior by restricting the pool to the use anticipated by the trust agreement


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> Amen.
> 
> The error should be pretty easy to detect if they are actually doing an audit. The cancellation is returning points to the current use year in addition to the credit pool that the pts were originally drawn from. I hope reading this helps them.
> 
> I am operating on the basis that they will detect this and clawback the pts like they did last year. And I am fine with that, and if the don't, I will let them expire again.
> 
> The sad part is that we need to maintain our own accounting.



I think I missed this post when you originally made it. Unfortunately it means there are multiple errors, as the scenario you describe (returning points from cancelled reservations to both a credit pool and regular use year) is not the only issue. I believe I noted elsewhere that another error is a reservation showing as using a different number of points than should actually have been required/used. 

If both scenarios occur on the same transaction the result would be magnified... for example, just using a theoretical example, a reservation made during the VIP discount window might have used 66,500 points to book something worth 287,000 points at full value. The system may show the reservation at 143,500 points (i.e., the platinum discount but without the upgrade showing). If that reservation is cancelled and returns 143,500 to two different places, over 200,000 additional points have been "created" on a 66,500 point reservation - well over 3X the value of the reservation itself - and this is on a single reservation.

Now fast forward to a recent transaction. I had a reservation for a 3BR Presidential at Grand Desert. Apparently they are doing some renovation work at Grand Desert and they needed to relocate some reservations, including mine. They moved me to a 3BR Presidential at Desert Blue. The reservation shows the number of points that would have been required to book that unit, rather than the number of points used to make the original reservation.

If I were to cancel that reservation (I'm not, but just using for example); what number of points would be returned to the account? I'm presuming it would be what is showing the reservation took. What I have NOT confirmed is that they didn't actually take more points from my account to make that new reservation. I'm almost afraid to ask them to confirm given all the other issues.


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> Robert I know how it works now. And like you I didn't see anything wrong with it
> 
> It's not that I borrowed a few points.and it's not "double" use



Are there posts in this thread getting deleted? Is our buddy RR back?


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> I think I missed this post when you originally made it. Unfortunately it means there are multiple errors, as the scenario you describe (returning points from cancelled reservations to both a credit pool and regular use year) is not the only issue. I believe I noted elsewhere that another error is a reservation showing as using a different number of points than should actually have been required/used.
> 
> If both scenarios occur on the same transaction the result would be magnified... for example, just using a theoretical example, a reservation made during the VIP discount window might have used 66,500 points to book something worth 287,000 points at full value. The system may show the reservation at 143,500 points (i.e., the platinum discount but without the upgrade showing). If that reservation is cancelled and returns 143,500 to two different places, over 200,000 additional points have been "created" on a 66,500 point reservation - well over 3X the value of the reservation itself - and this is on a single reservation.
> 
> Now fast forward to a recent transaction. I had a reservation for a 3BR Presidential at Grand Desert. Apparently they are doing some renovation work at Grand Desert and they needed to relocate some reservations, including mine. They moved me to a 3BR Presidential at Desert Blue. The reservation shows the number of points that would have been required to book that unit, rather than the number of points used to make the original reservation.
> 
> If I were to cancel that reservation (I'm not, but just using for example); what number of points would be returned to the account? I'm presuming it would be what is showing the reservation took. What I have NOT confirmed is that they didn't actually take more points from my account to make that new reservation. I'm almost afraid to ask them to confirm given all the other issues.



I second that.  I hate to call in for anything now because I feel like "dead man walking."  I don't want any trouble.  And all my alerting Wyndham to THEIR problem did was get my account suspended.  My confidence in their ability and desire to do the right thing is at an all time low ....  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Robert I know how it works now. And like you I didn't see anything wrong with it
> 
> It's not that I borrowed a few points.and it's not "double" use
> 
> What Wyndham sees is that I "borrowed" the points, made reservations and never paid for them
> 
> You can refer back to previous posts of mine to see the possible abuse.
> 
> I'm saying is that Wyndham could prevent that behavior by restricting the pool to the use anticipated by the trust agreement



If Credit Pool points were used, the right to use them, I would think would have been paid for.  It is my understanding that to use X amount of regular year points, in the credit pool, under the rules of the credit pool, costs X dollars per go.  The maintenance fees on the X points would be paid when normally due.

Borrowed points rights would be derived from maintenance fee payment pursuant the Trust Agreement and/or Membership Directory.


----------



## lcml11

scootr5 said:


> Are there posts in this thread getting deleted? Is our buddy RR back?



Nasty implication, I do not have the ability to delete posts, you might want to refer this issue to what I have seen referred to as the TUG Mafia.

If you do not like what I say, if TUG still has the ignore feature, just put me on Ignore.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> If Credit Pool points were used, the right to use them, I would think would have been paid for.  It is my understanding that to use X amount of regular year points, in the credit pool, under the rules of the credit pool, costs X dollars per go.  The maintenance fees on the X points would be paid when normally due.
> 
> Borrowed points rights would be derived from maintenance fee payment pursuant the Trust Agreement and/or Membership Directory.



There were several things that caused some accounts to have "extra" points. The big thing kn my account was the aggressive use of the credit pool. Like you I saw no problem with what I did. After all the fees would get paid sooner or later   But I couldn't convince Wyndham to see it the same way


If I use 2019 points in 2017 the maintenance fees won't be paid until 2019. Whyndham has a problem with that because of of the risk I might default

In addition to what I did with the credit pool there were other factors contributing to the number of  "extra" points. And these other things generated points that came absolutely free of maintenance fees. 

Whatever the source of extra points Wyndham has to do two things 1) get their points back and 2) make sure it dosent happen again. My suggestion regarding the credit pool was only that. A suggestion

It dosent matter to me what they do. As I said in a previous post. Regarding my situation the parties have resolved their differences


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Nasty implication, I do not have the ability to delete posts, you might want to refer this issue to what I have seen referred to as the TUG Mafia.
> 
> If you do not like what I say, if TUG still has the ignore feature, just put me on Ignore.



It's not that we don't like what you say Robert, we don't understand it.at least I don't  And I don't think you understand what's behind the suspensions

And you absolutely do have the ability to delete your own posts


----------



## bnoble

scootr5 said:


> Is our buddy RR back?


I believe RRLongwell and lcml11 are one and the same. It took me a while to recognize the writing style, but I had strong suspicions. Ron was the first to make the connection in public, IIRC.


----------



## ronparise

Perhaps first publicly but someone else tipped me off privately


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> It's not that we don't like what you say Robert, we don't understand it.at least I don't  And I don't think you understand what's behind the suspensions
> 
> And you absolutely do have the ability to delete your own posts



Yes, I got a notification that he quoted my post, and then it was not there when I went to look. It makes it seem like we are all talking to ourselves.

Edit - I've just found out that ignoring some users results in seeing the post with a note "You are ignoring content by this member. Show Ignored Content", while some other users don't display the post at all. It makes my post here seem pretty strange in context of the full  thread.


----------



## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> I believe RRLongwell and lcml11 are one and the same. It took me a while to recognize the writing style, but I had strong suspicions. Ron was the first to make the connection in public, IIRC.



Is there a "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey used to say?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lcml11

ronparise said:


> It's not that we don't like what you say Robert, we don't understand it.at least I don't  And I don't think you understand what's behind the suspensions
> 
> And you absolutely do have the ability to delete your own posts



If anyone is going to the upcoming meeting of the Fairfield Trust and if some members of the Fairfield Trust are there, maybe someone could ask them what caused the suspensions.


----------



## Ty1on

lcml11 said:


> If anyone is going to the upcoming meeting of the Fairfield Trust and if some members of the Fairfield Trust are there, maybe someone could ask them what caused the suspensions.



As evidenced multiple times over the last 60 pages, those members won't get a meaningful answer.


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> If anyone is going to the upcoming meeting of the Fairfield Trust and if some members of the Fairfield Trust are there, maybe someone could ask them what caused the suspensions.



We know what caused the suspensions: too many points in an account.  We even know at least three things that caused this.  What we don't know is when Wyndham will resolve this.  Those of us impacted were told no more than two weeks.  That was six months ago.  And only one poster states he has been fully reconciled and restored.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> Whatever the source of extra points Wyndham has to do two things 1) get their points back and 2) make sure it dosent happen again.



The problem is accentuated because that is exactly the order they are doing things in, and it should be the other way around. They should make finding and fixing the problem the priority, rather than focusing on the clawback of points.

It is absurd that this problem would have occurred on my acct in Jan 2016, and then again in Feb 2017. They have had a whole year and still have not addressed the integrity of their data?

ps. In the software dev world we have a saying.... "at a certain point, a bug becomes a feature..." we are really close to that point IMHO.  They should just stop with the clawbacks, and treat it like giving us a lottery ticket with each cancellation.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> If anyone is going to the upcoming meeting of the Fairfield Trust and if some members of the Fairfield Trust are there, maybe someone could ask them what caused the suspensions.


Dude....  we already know why

What we need to know is when will it be fixed


----------



## uscav8r

This thread is like a fad. Stick around long enough and we'll revisit a part of the conversation from 10-20 pages ago!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BellaWyn

uscav8r said:


> This thread is like a fad. Stick around long enough and we'll revisit a part of the conversation from 10-20 pages ago!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True, but checking it periodically is now habit hoping for new information on whether there has been resolution, which thus far, has not happened except for a single poster and Ron, who is more "settled" than " resolved."
 That could be a semantics thing however.

Continues to be extremely disturbing it has gone on this long.


----------



## Beefnot

bnoble said:


> I believe RRLongwell and lcml11 are one and the same. It took me a while to recognize the writing style, but I had strong suspicions. Ron was the first to make the connection in public, IIRC.



That they were one and the same was known years ago, like 2011 I think, but I suppose folks forgot.


----------



## lcml11

Beefnot said:


> That they were one and the same was known years ago, like 2011 I think, but I suppose folks forgot.



You are right, I have not hidden this fact and, by the way, Ron knew this to.

I do not know what the hidden agenda is.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> True, but checking it periodically is now habit hoping for new information on whether there has been resolution, which thus far, has not happened except for a single poster and Ron, who is more "settled" than " resolved."
> That could be a semantics thing however.
> 
> Continues to be extremely disturbing it has gone on this long.




I suppose it depends on how you define your terms.. but i would say my situation is resolved, but not yet settled


----------



## lcml11

scootr5 said:


> Yes, I got a notification that he quoted my post, and then it was not there when I went to look. It makes it seem like we are all talking to ourselves.
> 
> Edit - I've just found out that ignoring some users results in seeing the post with a note "You are ignoring content by this member. Show Ignored Content", while some other users don't display the post at all. It makes my post here seem pretty strange in context of the full  thread.



Your edit is noted, I did not delete my posts.  Sometimes I will use the edit feature to add information.

I can be sent off to your ignor user again.

By the way, I have heard that talking to oneself is not a problem, just when you start answer back is.

Ops, I guess I just quoted your post again.


----------



## paxsarah

Yeah, lcml11's identity is nothing new and nothing hidden: http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/pathways-program.196161/#post-1503884


----------



## lcml11

scootr5 said: ↑
Ron, you interrupted - I thought we'd get lcml11 answering rr's post. 
Na, he is OK. As some astute observers noticed in other threads, lcml11 is my alter ego. The lcml11 was only working on and off this morning for me. I think Ron knew this.

Ron, thanks for the tip, I will try it.

lcml11, Jul 28, 2013
#12

Both Ron and scootr5 new rrlongwell and lcm11 were the same person a long time ago.


----------



## wjappraise

> Both Ron and scootr5 new rrlongwell and lcm11 were the same person a long time ago.



What am I missing?  If this is Robert, why does the "real name" field say it's Laura?  Why the disguise?  



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> I suppose it depends on how you define your terms.. but i would say my situation is resolved, but not yet settled


So, two resolved, one of which is once again a fully functional account and the other not functional but pending settlement.

Better?

Just trying to keep track, not prying.


----------



## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> What am I missing?  If this is Robert, why does the "real name" field say it's Laura?  Why the disguise?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


WJ, there is a whole history with RRL (aka Robert, RRLongwell, lcm11) and it has nothing to do wtih the OT of this thread.  The guys are obsessing about identity, you're not missing anything of any signifigant consequence related to this thread.

Any new update on your suspension status?  How are you holding up?


----------



## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> What am I missing?  If this is Robert, why does the "real name" field say it's Laura?  Why the disguise?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No disguise.  My wife and I have multiple screen names under both verizon and outlook.  The screen names are used by either one of use.  The threads have show, as it relates to TUG, the poster is me and not my wife.  I not sure what this multiyear investigation by certain TUG posters has to do with anything.

Hopefully others are not "under investigation" by certain TUG Posters.

In the past, I have had problems making my info correct in TUG, I gave up trying.  I hope this post brings the multi-year investigation to a close.


----------



## lcml11

BellaWyn said:


> WJ, there is a whole history with RRL (aka Robert, RRLongwell, lcm11) and it has nothing to do wtih the OT of this thread.  The guys are obsessing about identity, you're not missing anything of any signifigant consequence related to this thread.
> 
> Any new update on your suspension status?  How are you holding up?



You are right.


----------



## wjappraise

BellaWyn said:


> Any new update on your suspension status?  How are you holding up?



No update at all.  A few days from hitting my six month anniversary of my account suspension.  

Basically my suspensions has lasted longer than one of Kim Kardashian's marriages.  

Frustration is still high but has reached a point of being more surreal.  The first two weeks were angst ridden.  I couldn't sleep well due to worry.  Now it's drug out so long that it's almost comical.  I've got to figure once a Wyndham rep contacts me to reconcile he or she is going to have to be hugely embarrassed and ashamed.   



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> No update at all.  A few days from hitting my six month anniversary of my account suspension.
> 
> Basically my suspensions has lasted longer than one of Kim Kardashian's marriages.
> 
> Frustration is still high but has reached a point of being more surreal.  The first two weeks were angst ridden.  I couldn't sleep well due to worry.  Now it's drug out so long that it's almost comical.  I've got to figure once a Wyndham rep contacts me to reconcile he or she is going to have to be hugely embarrassed and ashamed.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wish you and Ron well on getting a solution.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> So, two resolved, one of which is once again fully functional and the other not functional but pending settlement.
> 
> Better?
> 
> Just trying to keep track, not prying.


I'm good I just wanted to clarify, as much as I can, where I am


----------



## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> No update at all.  A few days from hitting my six month anniversary of my account suspension.
> 
> Basically my suspensions has lasted longer than one of Kim Kardashian's marriages.
> 
> Frustration is still high but has reached a point of being more surreal.  The first two weeks were angst ridden.  I couldn't sleep well due to worry.  Now it's drug out so long that it's almost comical.  I've got to figure once a Wyndham rep contacts me to reconcile he or she is going to have to be hugely embarrassed and ashamed.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would not count on a Wyndham rep being hugely embarrassed or ashamed. Remember, all actions taken by Wyndham to this point have indicated a bias in the corporate thinking that this points discrepancy is somehow YOUR fault.


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> I would not count on a Wyndham rep being hugely embarrassed or ashamed. Remember, all actions taken by Wyndham to this point have indicated a bias in the corporate thinking that this points discrepancy is somehow YOUR fault.



Good observation.  Perhaps the embarrassment will emanate from the fact it's taken six months.  Tom Brady hadn't started his four game suspension when this debacle started, and now he won his fifth Super Bowl.  And entire NFL football season has come and gone and still this episode trudges on.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lcml11

wjappraise said:


> Good observation.  Perhaps the embarrassment will emanate from the fact it's taken six months.  Tom Brady hadn't started his four game suspension when this debacle started, and now he won his fifth Super Bowl.  And entire NFL football season has come and gone and still this episode trudges on.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



For those people who have not worked it out with Wyndham by now may be faced with it not working out.  Wyndham may have just moved on.


----------



## BellaWyn

Bigrob said:


> I would not count on a Wyndham rep being hugely embarrassed or ashamed. Remember, all actions taken by Wyndham to this point have indicated a bias in the corporate thinking that this points discrepancy is somehow YOUR fault.



As irritating as that statement is, it's sadly probably true and is reflective of WYN disparaging attutude toward owners in general.



lcml11 said:


> For those people who have not worked it out with Wyndham by now may be faced with it not working out.  Wyndham may have just moved on.


Ummm...  that makes no sense and is unlikely since WYN initiated the suspensions in the first place.

At some point they have to CLOSE the audit.  They cannot keep an owner, who is paying ongoing MF's and keeping their account in good standing financially, permanetly suspended. The owner is paying for services they are NOT getting "in good faith" -- at some point a reconciliation or settlement will need to happen.  These owners have contracts that are deeded or, at the very least (CWA) says "in exchange for my MF WYN gives me XX points/yr to use in their system for travel and travel services.". (yadda yadda paraphrasing here).  To put them in a perma-hold indefinitely that includes payment without service becomes breach of contract.


----------



## BellaWyn

Bigrob said:


> I would not count on a Wyndham rep being hugely embarrassed or ashamed. Remember, all actions taken by Wyndham to this point have indicated a bias in the corporate thinking that this points discrepancy is somehow YOUR fault.


Rob, in the final analysis, how do you think WYN will be able to make it the Owners fault for their poor accounting and system problems?  With a few exceptions, like Ron who has openly stated he abused and took advantage of the loopholes in the system, many of the suspended owners are just owners using the system as they were instructed to do based on the information provided to them by Wyndham.  There was no overt attempt to snake the system or intent to damage Wyn. Some even attempted to identify the problem by contacting Wyn and pointing out the discrepancies, which reflects a considerable amount of good ethics.  As a counter response, they get suspended and put on perma-hold with no communication while still being required to continue to pay MF's to keep their account in good standing.

Where in that process has the owner shown "fault?"

Not attacking you personally but interested in the potential circular logic that could be devised to justify fault in these scenarios.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> So, two resolved, one of which is once again a fully functional account and the other not functional but pending settlement.
> 
> Better?
> 
> Just trying to keep track, not prying.





BellaWyn said:


> True, but checking it periodically is now habit hoping for new information on whether there has been resolution, which thus far, has not happened except for a single poster and Ron, who is more "settled" than " resolved."
> That could be a semantics thing however.
> 
> Continues to be extremely disturbing it has gone on this long.




Major status change regarding my situation happened today.  Although there are a few loose ends to tie down,  it would be more correct than not to use the word "settled"


----------



## lcml11

BellaWyn said:


> As irritating as that statement is, it's sadly probably true and is reflective of WYN disparaging attutude toward owners in general.
> 
> 
> Ummm...  that makes no sense and is unlikely since WYN initiated the suspensions in the first place.
> 
> At some point they have to CLOSE the audit.  They cannot keep an owner, who is paying ongoing MF's and keeping their account in good standing financially, permanetly suspended. The owner is paying for services they are NOT getting "in good faith" -- at some point a reconciliation or settlement will need to happen.  These owners have contracts that are deeded or, at the very least (CWA) says "in exchange for my MF WYN gives me XX points/yr to use in their system for travel and travel services.". (yadda yadda paraphrasing here).  To put them in a perma-hold indefinitely that includes payment without service becomes breach of contract.



Actually, page 394 lays out reasons for denial of services.  For the identified items, the decision, under the wording of the paragraph, to restrict services is the sole and reasonable discretion of Wyndham.  I have first hand knowledge of a member who had a restriction that  has been in effect for many many years with no apparent chance of it ever being eliminated.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/410

The words of a person that knows about Wyndham:

Heres the thing,

"I dont like the fact that i had to pay maintenance fees during the suspension, but also understand that I only had to pay fees for what I owned. I didnt have to pay fees on the "extra" points. (Im calling points that didnt flow from contracts I own, "extra") . The key word in my last sentence is "own" As an owner I have to pay my fair share of what what I own, whether Im able use it for a period of time, makes no difference."

The only thing I would also observe is that if a suspension lasts long enough the points could expire.  Then the issue becomes whether or not Wyndham would make good on the lost points."

The term reasonable, when the day is done, may have to be determined by a court.

If anyone had the suspension in effect at the end of their use year, were points lost?

Here is what another poster said: "I do not know that when I am able to cancel reservations the points are not going back to where they should be going. Right now it is a small problem but when those points expire in September it will be a big problem." This is as of February 9.

Not being able to cancel reservations in a timely manner, I would think, be a problem.  I am assuming this reservation points would just be lost.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Major status change regarding my situation happened today.  Although there are a few loose ends to tie down,  it would be more correct than not to use the word "settled"



Hopefully for the better and use rights have been restored.


----------



## BellaWyn

lcml11 said:


> If anyone had the suspension in effect at the end of their use year, were points lost?


Robert, you have at least 30+ pages of catchup reading to do on this thread. That issue has already been discussed.

Also, vague references to "first hand knowlege" kinda disapates in the wind.  "A" single restriction is not the same as a fully suspended account.


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> Major status change regarding my situation happened today.  Although there are a few loose ends to tie down,  it would be more correct than not to use the word "settled"


GTK that shift happens for some and here's to wishing that your major change is to your best benefit given the circumstances.

Modify status...  1 resolved, 1 settled (almost). 198+/- to go?


----------



## lcml11

BellaWyn said:


> Rob, in the finale analysis, how do you think WYN will be able to make it the Owners fault for their poor accounting and system problems?  With a few exceptions, like Ron who has openly stated he abused and took advantage of the loopholes in the system, many of the suspended owners are just owners using the system as they were instructed to do based on the information provided to them by Wyndham.  There was no overt attempt to snake the system or intent to damage Wyn. Some even attempted to identify the problem by contacting Wyn and pointing out the discrepancies, which reflects a considerable amount of good ethics.  As a counter response, they get suspended and put on perma-hold with no communication while still being required to continue to pay MF's to keep their account in good standing.
> 
> Where in that process has the owner shown "fault?"
> 
> Not attacking you personally but interested in the potential circular logic that could be devised to justify fault in these scenarios.



The logic appears to be simple, it appears to be up to them when to suspend or not, at least in the early rounds.


----------



## BellaWyn

lcml11 said:


> The logic appears to be simple, it appears to be up to them when to suspend or not, at least in the early rounds.


This is a good example of scatter logic.


----------



## lcml11

BellaWyn said:


> GTK that shift happens for some and here's to wishing that your major change is to your best benefit given the circumstances.
> 
> Modify status...  1 resolved, 1 settled (almost). 198+/- to go?



Do not know if the almost settled cast the proper implication.  Resolved is better.  Resolved can take may forms.

At least one likes settled and at least some others like resolved.  See above posts.


----------



## BellaWyn

lcml11 said:


> Do not know if the almost settled cast the proper implication.  Resolved is better.  Resolved can take may forms.


Dude...  scroll UP!


----------



## comicbookman

This was a useful and interesting thread until the recent comments by LcmL11 started the thread going in circles.  Please read the thread before commenting, if only to spare the rest of us.


----------



## ronparise

comicbookman said:


> This was a useful and interesting thread until the recent comments by LcmL11 started the thread going in circles.  Please read the thread before commenting, if only to spare the rest of us.




someone up thread asked about his history here, and thats it exactly:  he talks in circles, 
also he presents anything he hears from a wyndham sales person as fact and takes any disagreement as a personal attack
I know he has an agenda,  I just cant figure out what it is.


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> someone up thread asked about his history here, and thats it exactly:  he talks in circles,
> also he presents anything he hears from a wyndham sales person as fact and takes any disagreement as a personal attack
> I know he has an agenda,  I just cant figure out what it is.



Somethings never change, cross the mega renters, time share reselers, etc.  the attack posts start, insults, investigations, etc.   The line will be towed or else.

Truth goes to the winds.  I have not talked to Wyndhams sales in years.  For what it worth,  I would believe them over the mega renters timeshare re-seller posts here.  Actually, I do not believe either.


----------



## vacationhopeful

lcml11 said:


> Somethings never change, cross the mega renters, time share reselers, etc.  the attack posts start, insults, investigations, etc.   The line will be towed or else.
> 
> Truth goes to the winds.  I have talked to Wyndhams sales in years.  For what it worth,  I would believe them over the mega renters timeshare re-seller posts here.  Actually, I do not believe either.



And around the circles does Robert/rrlongwell/lcml11 go ... again.


----------



## Jan M.

lcml11 said:


> If anyone had the suspension in effect at the end of their use year, were points lost?





lcml11 said:


> Not being able to cancel reservations in a timely manner, I would think, be a problem. I am assuming this reservation points would just be lost.



From your comments as OP have said it is clear that you haven't taken the time to read the posts in this thread and as they have said if you want your posts to have credibility then it would help if you understood what has transpired to date. If you feel like OP are criticizing you then you should take into consideration that this whole situation with the freeze and all the aspects of it have been unbelievably distressing both emotionally and financially to the impacted owners. Also that many of us who weren't frozen have been involved in this thread because we understand the implications of how this has and will continue to affect every Wyndham owner. As OP stated you want to engage in discussion and debate of the topic that took place pages/months ago and those involved in this thread are well beyond that now.

If you had read the posts in this thread you would know that:

1) Points were lost. And yes some of the owners had paid maintenance fees on those points.
2) Reservations were lost.
3) Frozen owners weren't and some still aren't able to make new reservations.
4) At times the frozen/suspended owners have not been able to get guests added to reservations.
5) Frozen owners adding guests had to pay the call in center fee of $129 instead of the online fee of $99 with no consideration given to the fact that Wyndham denied them online access to their accounts.
6) None of us knows exactly how many people had their accounts frozen.
7) Some frozen owners had been telling Wyndham that there were unexplained large numbers of points that they didn't own in their accounts.
8) Owners who were contacted by Wyndham attorneys in the early stages of the "investigations" were treated like criminals. As in: We know you did something; tell us what you did and it will go easier on you.
9) Some owners are in settlement negotiations with Wyndham.
10) Some have had access to their accounts restored with limitations like being unable to credit pool points or buy or sell deeds/contracts.
11) Some are still unable to do anything more than add guests to reservations made prior to 8/15/16 or cancel those reservations.
12) Wyndham overall has been somewhat sketchy to downright awful in taking and returning phone calls on the dedicated number for frozen owners.
13) The audits that were done took forever and some are still not done.
14) Some owners had points taken from them and owners were not permitted to see the findings of the audits on their accounts.
15) Some audits were not even correct.
16) The glitches that caused points to appear aren't fixed and some of those partially thawed owners are still seeing points they don't own show up in their accounts.


----------



## lcml11

Jan M. said:


> From your comments as OP have said it is clear that you haven't taken the time to read the posts in this thread and as they have said if you want your posts to have credibility then it would help if you understood what has transpired to date. If you feel like OP are criticizing you then you should take into consideration that this whole situation with the freeze and all the aspects of it have been unbelievably distressing both emotionally and financially to the impacted owners. Also that many of us who weren't frozen have been involved in this thread because we understand the implications of how this has and will continue to affect every Wyndham owner. As OP stated you want to engage in discussion and debate of the topic that took place pages/months ago and those involved in this thread are well beyond that now.
> 
> If you had read the posts in this thread you would know that:
> 
> 1) Points were lost. And yes some of the owners had paid maintenance fees on those points.
> 2) Reservations were lost.
> 3) Frozen owners weren't and some still aren't able to make new reservations.
> 4) At times the frozen/suspended owners have not been able to get guests added to reservations.
> 5) Owners adding guests had to pay the call in center fee of $129 instead of the online fee of $99 with no consideration given to the fact that Wyndham denied them online access to their account
> 6) None of us knows exactly how many people had their accounts frozen.
> 7) Some frozen owners had been telling Wyndham that there were unexplained large numbers of points that they didn't own in their accounts.
> 8) Owners who were contacted by Wyndham attorneys in the early stages of the "investigations" were treated like criminals. As in: We know you did something; tell us what you did and it will go easier on you.
> 9) Some owners are in settlement negotiations with Wyndham.
> 10) Some have had access to their accounts restored with limitations like being unable to credit pool points or buy or sell deeds/contracts.
> 11) Some are still unable to do anything more than add guests to reservations made prior to 8/15/16 or cancel those reservations.
> 12) Wyndham overall has been somewhat sketchy to downright awful in taking and returning phone calls on the dedicated number for frozen owners.
> 13) The audits that were done took forever and some are still not done.
> 14) Some owners had points taken from them and owners were not permitted to see the findings of the audits on their accounts,
> 15) Some audits were not even correct.
> 16) The glitches that caused points to appear aren't fixed and some of those partially thawed owners are still seeing points they don't own show up in their accounts.



Thanks for the nicely done summary.


----------



## lcml11

vacationhopeful said:


> And around the circles does Robert/rrlongwell/lcml11 go ... again.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Somethings never change, cross the mega renters, time share reselers, etc.  the attack posts start, insults, investigations, etc.   The line will be towed or else.
> 
> Truth goes to the winds.  I have talked to Wyndhams sales in years.  For what it worth,  I would believe them over the mega renters timeshare re-seller posts here.  Actually, I do not believe either.



The thing is Robert there has been no attack,,,yet;   in spite of one being justified.  You drop into this thread without reading it.. You  are sitting on the side of the tracks watching a train wreck and presuming to tell those of us involved what happened and  whats likely to happen from here. This is not a spectator sport. and I dont appreciate you using me for your personal pleasure. . 

 I dont understand why you would believe a salesman over the real life experiences of anyone  here.  We have nothing to gain from a lie. Your salesmen are angling for  a sale. and their reputation is that they will stretch the truth a bit to get one


----------



## SueDonJ

This thread is difficult enough to follow without a centuries-old tiff that adds nothing to the topic.  I've been reading since the beginning and still don't have a thorough understanding of what's happening, or, enough info to know whether/how much of the problem can be attributed to Wyndham and how much/whether to owners.  And it's normal for threads that have gone on this long to generate questions at any point, regardless of whether the answers may have been posted somewhere within.

One of the many important things being discussed in this thread is the fact that Wyndham has/is not making it easy or expedient for owners to get the answers they need.  This thread is hopefully serving as an aid for owners to insist on proper resolutions.  Please stop the sideshow that could end up derailing/closing the thread to those who need it most.


----------



## am1

One again cannot add guest names to reservations within 15 days of check in.  But the person I spoke to was going to look into it.  I guess Wyndham forgot February only has 28 days.  

I also got a reminder that my mfs are due for 2017 at the resort where I PIC the units with Wyndham.  Am I even able to PIC the units if I wanted to and if I can I cannot even use the points until maybe some unknown time in the future.


----------



## lcml11

SueDonJ said:


> This thread is difficult enough to follow without a centuries-old tiff that adds nothing to the topic.  I've been reading since the beginning and still don't have a thorough understanding of what's happening, or, enough info to know whether/how much of the problem can be attributed to Wyndham and how much/whether to owners.  And it's normal for threads that have gone on this long to generate questions at any point, regardless of whether the answers may have been posted somewhere within.
> 
> One of the many important things being discussed in this thread is the fact that Wyndham has/is not making it easy or expedient for owners to get the answers they need.  This thread is hopefully serving as an aid for owners to insist on proper resolutions.  Please stop the sideshow that could end up derailing/closing the thread to those who need it most.



The above is true enough.  The information is useful, I am assuming, to people trying to stay out of this.  I went through a variation of this current problem before.  I am also attempting to get 3 of my current ownership deeds listed under my ownership section under the pre-view site and get my LLC owner access to the site.  This thing may be spreading.  One of the Wyndham Corporate employees made a comment to me something to the effect that the system was working as designed.  I did manage to get this person to get me a case number to continue my attempts to solve this.


----------



## Sandy VDH

am1 said:


> One again cannot add guest names to reservations within 15 days of check in.  .



That has never been a rule, you should be able to add a GC up to time of check in.


----------



## wjappraise

SueDonJ said:


> One of the many important things being discussed in this thread is the fact that Wyndham has/is not making it easy or expedient for owners to get the answers they need.  This thread is hopefully serving as an aid for owners to insist on proper resolutions.  Please stop the sideshow that could end up derailing/closing the thread to those who need it most.


Thanks Sue.  I rely on this post for ANY updates from other impacted owners, even if it is to say nothing has changed.  

I take heart today when Ron speaks of the events of this day being one that likely brings closure to his situation.  Ron has stated his opinion that once his case is settled, then the powers that be can move on to other accounts.  

I would be beyond irritated if this thread was shut down due to someone who is not impacted causing a dispute.  

Thank you for your call back to the issue at hand.  And for me, once again, no updates.  Only another invoice to pay.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## am1

Sandy VDH said:


> That has never been a rule, you should be able to add a GC up to time of check in.



I mean they would not let me add the guest names as they can only add them up to the end of the month.  Why could they not have just established a rolling date back in September that would be standard to avoid all of this.


----------



## Sandy VDH

am1 said:


> I mean they would not let me add the guest names as they can only add them up to the end of the month.  Why could they not have just established a rolling date back in September that would be standard to avoid all of this.



Is that a restriction in your limited use of your account?  If it is I don't understand your restriction.  

Because that is NOT a standard wyndham restriction.


----------



## BellaWyn

lcml11 said:


> The above is true enough.  The information is useful, I am assuming, to people trying to stay out of this.  I went through a variation of this current problem before.  I am also attempting to get 3 of my current ownership deeds listed under my ownership section under the pre-view site and get my LLC owner access to the site.  This thing may be spreading.  One of the Wyndham Corporate employees made a comment to me something to the effect that the system was working as designed.  I did manage to get this person to get me a case number to continue my attempts to solve this.


Well, can you please take that to a different thread because it really has nothing to do with this one.  You're talking about ownership deeds and the new owner site, which is WAY outside the OT here.  It's cluttering up what is already and hugely unwieldy thread.

Thanks, BTW, Jan for the summary update, good job!  Ron, have not forgotten how RL's tactics work in spinning a thread into oblivion.  Irritation justified!    Sue's point is SPOT ON!    And I'm with WJ, would be a kinda SO not happy if this thread gets shut down because of circular postings of one person.  

MODS!????  Oh....  Sue IS a mod.  Keep us in check please!


----------



## am1

Sandy VDH said:


> Is that a restriction in your limited use of your account?  If it is I don't understand your restriction.
> 
> Because that is NOT a standard wyndham restriction.




Limitation of my account.  Wyndham gets to decide how far out I can add guest names to reservations.


----------



## Jan M.

Sandy VDH said:


> Is that a restriction in your limited use of your account?  If it is I don't understand your restriction.
> 
> Because that is NOT a standard wyndham restriction.






am1 said:


> Limitation of my account.  Wyndham gets to decide how far out I can add guest names to reservations.



Sandy, I believe that Adam is still fully restricted not thawed or partially thawed like OP. He cannot make reservations and can only add guest names within x number of days of check in.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Jan M. said:


> Sandy, I believe that Adam is still fully restricted not thawed or partially thawed like OP. He cannot make reservations and can only add guest names within x number of days of check in.



I got that Jan.  I just don't know who has what limitations, or what exactly what those specific limitations are.  Too many variations to keep track.


----------



## Beefnot

BellaWyn said:


> MODS!????  Oh....  Sue IS a mod.  Keep us in check please!



Be careful what you ask for.


----------



## jediinprescott

Sandy VDH said:


> Is that a restriction in your limited use of your account?  If it is I don't understand your restriction.
> 
> Because that is NOT a standard wyndham restriction.


When I was frozen, the guest cert restriction was "only able to add GC's in rolling 15 day increments. I had to get within 15 days of the reservation before I could add a GC.
Mike


----------



## ecwinch

lcml11 said:


> This thing may be spreading.  One of the Wyndham Corporate employees made a comment to me something to the effect that the system was working as designed.



Am I the only one that wishes you would start to provide the name of the employees you are relying on as a source for your posts?  IMHO the constant stream of information from nameless Wyndham sources is just increasing the signal to noise ratio of the thread.


----------



## lcml11

ecwinch said:


> Am I the only one that wishes you would start to provide the name of the employees you are relying on as a source for your posts?  IMHO the constant stream of information from nameless Wyndham sources is just increasing the signal to noise ratio of the thread.



I do not the answer to your question.  You may want to just ask them.  I do not think that would be productive or needed.  If Wyndham wants to know, I understand they tape record most or all conversations.  They can just check the recordings if they are interested.


----------



## ronparise

W


lcml11 said:


> The above is true enough.  The information is useful, I am assuming, to people trying to stay out of this.  I went through a variation of this current problem before.  I am also attempting to get 3 of my current ownership deeds listed under my ownership section under the pre-view site and get my LLC owner access to the site.  This thing may be spreading.  One of the Wyndham Corporate employees made a comment to me something to the effect that the system was working as designed.  I did manage to get this person to get me a case number to continue my attempts to solve this.



Are you suggesting that your inability to log into the preview site is a variation of the suspendions that are the subject of these threads or that your account was suspended sometime in the past??


We all got emails back in august that said "due to unusual activity' in our accounts, our accounts were being suspended.    Did you get such an email?

We were all invited to call Wyndham with questions, and we all got a return call from a Wyndham attorney who, instead of answering our questions, asked us questions. In my case and in the case of others that have posted here the questions were asked in an acusatory way

Have you been contacted by a Wyndham attorney?


Those of us that have been suspended have been limited in our communication with Wyndham to one case manager. (If that person is on vacation or out of the office due to a family emergency all communication stops) We have been given a special telephone number and email address to contact them and the routine is that we leave a message and hope for a return call or email. Sometimes it comes and sometimes it dosent
And guest confirmations and cancellations have to go through this person

Have you been assigned a case manager or perhaps a lawyer?

During the "hard freeze" period we could not make new reservations or buy or sell contracts. Some, of us have had our accounts "thawed" but even now can't buy or sell. One of us here has reported that they have come to a place where they are "back to normal". In my case we have come to a different resolution

So would you say your accounts are frozen, thawed back to normal? Or like me. Something else.  Or would you say you have not been suspended?


The one thing all of us that are or were suspended have in common is that Wyndham believes that we have (or had)  "extra" points in our accounts; points that we got for free and for which haven't paid maintenance fees. And I think all of us that have been suspended, even if we disagree with that, at least understand how Wyndham came to that conclusion

So how many extra points does Wyndham see in your account. Or is your "problem" due to something else?? Or maybe you don't have a problem at all



Please understand I am not trying to put you on the spot I really don't care and I really don't need to know the details or know about your individual problem. What  I'm trying to figure out here is this: is Wyndham still looking for accounts with extra points and can we expect another round of suspensions? And are you the leading edge of a new net that they have thrown out

Or 

Is The problem  you are experiencing unique to you and not connected to a possible new round of suspensions?


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> Some do not what me to post what happened to me on this site or at least this thread, fair enough, I'll pass.



So, your account was not suspended like others of the impacted owners?  If so, that would seem appropriate to not post on this thread content that does not add to the subject, but only serves as a "red herring."  Perhaps you could start another thread about your issues or concerns, but leave the content of this thread about the subject matter of accounts suspended in August 2016.  

If, on the other had, as Ron asked, your account HAS been suspended due to "extra points", then please share your experience and insights.  But only if the suspension was due to the issue of the extra points.


----------



## wjappraise

lcml11 said:


> I'll pass on this one to.



Oy vey


----------



## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> Oy vey


WJ....  don't engage.  It just makes it worse.  TUG has pretty effective "ignore" feature, which I rarely employ.  But occassionally extreme circumstances arise that warrent pulling the trigger.


----------



## raygo123

lcml11 said:


> I'll pass on this one to.  Also, people can see the Voyager Thread.  I also believe that Voyager has come up in many threads over the years.
> 
> If someone is interested just use the TUG search feature type in Voyager, go to the last page and read the posts in reverse order i.e. oldest to newest.
> 
> Reading this thread without reviewing the Voyager related posts from days gone by is probably reading this material "Out of Context."


You make me feel so good about some of my really stupid posts, Icml11!

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## bnoble

SueDonJ said:


> I've been reading since the beginning and still don't have a thorough understanding of what's happening, or, enough info to know whether/how much of the problem can be attributed to Wyndham and how much/whether to owners.


Here's the short summary.

At some point, someone at Wyndham realized that some accounts had many many more points/points-in-reservations in a given Use Year than there were points owned in contracts in the accounts. There are several ways this can happen:

1: The Points Credit Pool can give you up to 5x the number of points in a given year (pooled the two prior years and the two subsequent years).
2: The "cancel points roll forward" loophole could have generated an unbounded number of points (this loophole was closed when cancel points were eliminated)
3: Renting points from Wyndham can get you another 1x (ignoring roll-forward).
4: Stripping and selling contracts can generate an unbounded number of points.
5: Wyndham IT errors, the scope of which are not clear.

None of these are owners cheating the system, though some are not exactly in the spirit of the rules. For example, the fact that you can credit pool "backwards" does not seem to have been contemplated by Wyndham. Rolling-forward cancel points sure seems like it shouldn't happen, but that's not really an owner's fault, and now it no longer happens---at least it's not supposed to. But, when it was possible, several owners deliberately got non-aligned use years to take advantage of it. Renting points is totally kosher. IMO, so is stripping a contract. Wyndham IT errors aren't the fault of the owners either.

In short, these accounts had the points they had because (a) Wyndham's IT systems hover between "not well thought out" and "completely broken" and (b) some program features work in ways that Wyndham hadn't necessarily considered.

The accounts that were identified in August were those which had several multiples of the number of points available---I think the smallest I've read was 4x. Over time, some accounts have been "thawed" with varying levels of restriction, some have been returned to their owners outright, and others have reached negotiated arrangements. At least in part, how one has been treated seems to have depended on one's willingness to cooperate.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Some do not what me to post what happened to me on this site or at least this thread, fair enough, I'll pass.
> 
> However, here is what on person who knows Wyndham Vacation Resorts very well had to say on the subject:
> 
> "My accounts have always had some contracts missing from the ownership summary. What you see is nothing new
> 
> Ron Parise
> 
> my website
> 
> my other website
> ronparise, Sunday at 5:17 PM Report
> #37 Like + Quote Reply"
> 
> Thanks for the summary.




I said that but it wasn't on the subject of this thread

Please don't use random quotes of my posts to "prove" something completely unrelated


----------



## SueDonJ

bnoble said:


> Here's the short summary.
> 
> At some point, someone at Wyndham realized that some accounts had many many more points/points-in-reservations in a given Use Year than there were points owned in contracts in the accounts. There are several ways this can happen:
> 
> 1: The Points Credit Pool can give you up to 5x the number of points in a given year (pooled the two prior years and the two subsequent years).
> 2: The "cancel points roll forward" loophole could have generated an unbounded number of points (this loophole was closed when cancel points were eliminated)
> 3: Renting points from Wyndham can get you another 1x (ignoring roll-forward).
> 4: Stripping and selling contracts can generate an unbounded number of points.
> 5: Wyndham IT errors, the scope of which are not clear.
> 
> None of these are owners cheating the system, though some are not exactly in the spirit of the rules. For example, the fact that you can credit pool "backwards" does not seem to have been contemplated by Wyndham. Rolling-forward cancel points sure seems like it shouldn't happen, but that's not really an owner's fault, and now it no longer happens---at least it's not supposed to. But, when it was possible, several owners deliberately got non-aligned use years to take advantage of it. Renting points is totally kosher. IMO, so is stripping a contract. Wyndham IT errors aren't the fault of the owners either.
> 
> In short, these accounts had the points they had because (a) Wyndham's IT systems hover between "not well thought out" and "completely broken" and (b) some program features work in ways that Wyndham hadn't necessarily considered.
> 
> The accounts that were identified in August were those which had several multiples of the number of points available---I think the smallest I've read was 4x. Over time, some accounts have been "thawed" with varying levels of restriction, some have been returned to their owners outright, and others have reached negotiated arrangements. At least in part, how one has been treated seems to have depended on one's willingness to cooperate.



Thank you.  I appreciate your - and others - willingness to explain things for folks like me who have absolutely zero at stake here.  

One point I'm trying to make is that I would like to help as a TUG moderator but while I understand the frustration with off-topic posts being dropped here, I don't know enough to recognize what's off-topic.  Instead of responding to them which takes the thread off-track you can simply report them with a comment, "please remove off-topic post," after which any of the mods will be happy to clean up the thread for you when they see the reports.

To those of you who are dropping off-topic posts here, this is your fair warning that they'll be removed.  The people whose accounts have been affected by these specific Wyndham actions have too much at stake and need this thread to remain on-topic.


----------



## wjappraise

SueDonJ said:


> Instead of responding to them which takes the thread off-track you can simply report them with a comment, "please remove off-topic post," after which any of the mods will be happy to clean up the thread for you when they see the reports.
> 
> To those of you who are dropping off-topic posts here, this is your fair warning that they'll be removed.  The people whose accounts have been affected by these specific Wyndham actions have too much at stake and need this thread to remain on-topic.



Fantastic.  Thank you.  Have a great weekend.  Dream of cogent posts.


----------



## ronparise

SueDonJ said:


> Thank you.  I appreciate your - and others - willingness to explain things for folks like me who have absolutely zero at stake here.
> 
> One point I'm trying to make is that I would like to help as a TUG moderator but while I understand the frustration with off-topic posts being dropped here, I don't know enough to recognize what's off-topic.  Instead of responding to them which takes the thread off-track you can simply report them with a comment, "please remove off-topic post," after which any of the mods will be happy to clean up the thread for you when they see the reports.
> 
> To those of you who are dropping off-topic posts here, this is your fair warning that they'll be removed.  The people whose accounts have been affected by these specific Wyndham actions have too much at stake and need this thread to remain on-topic.




Thank you

From my perspective I have no problem with "off topic" posts Some of them take us down a tangential path, but we almost always get back to where we ought to be. And we almost always learn something in the process. If I have a problem its with the folks that refuse to accept the collective wisdom of the group.  Its taken us 60+ pages to get to this point, but most of us that have been with it the whole time agree on the facts and although we have come to different conclusions and see different possible outcomes, we accept (and we have learned from) the logic and soundness  of each other's point of view

and I dont have a problem with someone that drops in to see whats happening and asks some questions or even offers an opinion of their own.  Im a big picture kind of guy but Im so close to this thing that Im afraid Im missing that big picture, Looking at this thing with someone elses eyes is helpful.

However, Ive never been accused of being "thin skinned". but when I think someone is taking a "serves you right" or an "I told you so" position on this...That upsets me. Clearly at least on poster has found my "hot button" and delights in pushing it  hmmmm   maybe its just old age. 

Thanks for the warning...and the help.. for my part  Ill toughen up or for the first time ever use the ignore function


----------



## am1

Wyndham allowed me to add guest names for March 4 and 5 and pay $129 each for it.  Still has not been pushed forward.  It is just being done day to day.  Does any one else here have these same restrictions?  It is frustrating having to rely on the agent being able to see which reservations I actually have in my account.  Especially when it is a weeks based system and the second half of the week shows up with reservations that start at the beginning of the week.  Even asking which reservations I have for a certain date is always met with at which resort.  My reply is all of them which because if the system they are not easily able to see that.  If I miss canceling a reservations at the 15 day window or no one bothers to answer the phone or call me back they do not want to make exceptions.  At this point the points may expire before I can use them again and I will demand all my points to be reinstated because of loss of use that Wyndham should be happy to get what reservations they can back from me no matter when I want them cancelled.  It is the other owners who suffer as since this has started I have cancelled a lot less reservations then I normally would.


----------



## DeniseM

> What am I missing? If this is Robert, why does the "real name" field say it's Laura? Why the disguise?



I'm a little late to see this question, but here is some background:  When Robert first created his alter-ego years ago, he would post from both user names in the same thread, and respond to his own posts. 

However, with his unique style, it didn't take long before he was recognized and  outed on TUG.  Nevertheless, he continues to post from both user names.  Based on style and content, I would be extremely surprised if his wife has ever posted on TUG.

Historically, he disappears for months at a time, and then returns and dives back into topics that he isn't familiar with. 

He brings an extremely unusual perspective to TUG.


----------



## BellaWyn

am1 said:


> Wyndham allowed me to add guest names for March 4 and 5 and pay $129 each for it.  Still has not been pushed forward.  It is just being done day to day.  Does any one else here have these same restrictions?  It is frustrating having to rely on the agent being able to see which reservations I actually have in my account.  Especially when it is a weeks based system and the second half of the week shows up with reservations that start at the beginning of the week.  Even asking which reservations I have for a certain date is always met with at which resort.  My reply is all of them which because if the system they are not easily able to see that.  If I miss canceling a reservations at the 15 day window or no one bothers to answer the phone or call me back they do not want to make exceptions.  At this point the points may expire before I can use them again and I will demand all my points to be reinstated because of loss of use that Wyndham should be happy to get what reservations they can back from me no matter when I want them cancelled.  It is the other owners who suffer as since this has started I have cancelled a lot less reservations then I normally would.


So, because they can't/won't/don't (or won't answer your call or return timely a VM) cancel reservations at the 15-day mark those reservations have to sit in your account going unused while the points get consumed?  

Am I understanding that right?  

All because your restriction is so narrow on what dates they allow you to add a GC to the reservation?


----------



## happyhopian

lcml11 said:


> I'll pass on this one to.  Also, people can see the Voyager Thread.  I also believe that Voyager has come up in many threads over the years.
> 
> If someone is interested just use the TUG search feature type in Voyager, go to the last page and read the posts in reverse order i.e. oldest to newest.
> 
> Reading this thread without reviewing the Voyager related posts from days gone by is probably reading this material "Out of Context."


In the past moderators would move OT post to another thread. Thank you for the notes on how to handle these silly and terribly confusing/distracting posts. Thank you!


----------



## am1

BellaWyn said:


> So, because they can't/won't/don't (or won't answer your call or return timely a VM) cancel reservations at the 15-day mark those reservations have to sit in your account going unused while the points get consumed?
> 
> Am I understanding that right?
> 
> All because your restriction is so narrow on what dates they allow you to add a GC to the reservation?



Yes.  Reservations I am happy to cancel t 15 days do not get cancelled because of not getting a callback or not being told I have certain reservations.   Since I cannot book anything new not getting points back (in the short term) is not really  big deal.  Long term it is and I will fight for those points when the time is right.


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## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Wyndham allowed me to add guest names for March 4 and 5 and pay $129 each for it.  Still has not been pushed forward.  It is just being done day to day.  Does any one else here have these same restrictions?  It is frustrating having to rely on the agent being able to see which reservations I actually have in my account.  Especially when it is a weeks based system and the second half of the week shows up with reservations that start at the beginning of the week.  Even asking which reservations I have for a certain date is always met with at which resort.  My reply is all of them which because if the system they are not easily able to see that.  If I miss canceling a reservations at the 15 day window or no one bothers to answer the phone or call me back they do not want to make exceptions.  At this point the points may expire before I can use them again and I will demand all my points to be reinstated because of loss of use that Wyndham should be happy to get what reservations they can back from me no matter when I want them cancelled.  It is the other owners who suffer as since this has started I have cancelled a lot less reservations then I normally would.



I can't answer for anyone else, but I can say I don't have the restrictions you have regarding adding guest confirmations. In fact I am not sure how many of the originally suspended accounts are still hard-locked, most everyone other than you seems to at least have been "thawed".


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## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> I can't answer for anyone else, but I can say I don't have the restrictions you have regarding adding guest confirmations. In fact I am not sure how many of the originally suspended accounts are still hard-locked, most everyone other than you seems to at least have been "thawed".



Ditto for me.  Short of Ron, who has been active in the negotiation process for a resolution of the suspension, and Adam, who remains frozen, I know of no other owners who cannot at least access their online accounts and make reservations, cancellations, and add guest names.  The remaining limitations are for placing points in the credit pool, and buying or selling contracts.  Which loom large as we get closer to the time frame some of us need to credit pool points that will expire.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Ditto for me.  Short of Ron, who has been active in the negotiation process for a resolution of the suspension, and Adam, who remains frozen, I know of no other owners who cannot at least access their online accounts and make reservations, cancellations, and add guest names.  The remaining limitations are for placing points in the credit pool, and buying or selling contracts.  Which loom large as we get closer to the time frame some of us need to credit pool points that will expire.



Remember just as owners that post on tug are a fraction of the total ownership so are the suspended owners that post on tug a fraction of the total number of suspended owners

Although it's fun to speculate,(and I'm having more fun than most) It would be a mistake to make the leap  from what is posted here to any conclusion about the big picture


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## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> Remember just as owners that post on tug are a fraction of the total ownership so are the suspended owners that post on tug a fraction of the total number of suspended owners
> 
> Although it's fun to speculate,(and I'm having more fun than most) It would be a mistake to make the leap  from what is posted here to any conclusion about the big picture



True, but owners who are knowledgeable enough to get in the situation that froze their accounts in the first place, are likely knowledgeable enough to find TUG, I suspect that we represent a larger portion of the frozen accounts than the ration of Total Wyn Members that are also Tug Members.


----------



## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> True, but owners who are knowledgeable enough to get in the situation that froze their accounts in the first place, are likely knowledgeable enough to find TUG, I suspect that we represent a larger portion of the frozen accounts than the ration of Total Wyn Members that are also Tug Members.



Perhaps we are as a group "smarter than the average bear"  but I know several suspended owners that are in the same place as I, that  don't post here.


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## wjappraise

DeniseM said:


> Historically, he disappears for months at a time, and then returns and dives back into topics that he isn't familiar with.
> 
> He brings an extremely unusual perspective to TUG.



I have an uncle like that, we don't see him for years, and then he shows up at a family reunion, wearing an ascot and speaking with a continental accent.


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## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> I just did a cancellation that seemingly has returned more points to me than it should have. So be prepared for a 2nd round.



Any update on this Eric?   Any contact from Wyndham?  Or clawback of the points?  

Thanks for sharing.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

Not yet. But last go round it took Wyndham about 60-90 days to act.


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## Roger830

It looks like Wally might be maintaining the legacy system for Wyndham.
Scroll down to dates Feb 20 - Feb 26 for 6 strips.

http://dilbert.com/


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## wjappraise

Roger830 said:


> It looks like Wally might be maintaining the legacy system for Wyndham.
> Scroll down to dates Feb 20 - Feb 26 for 6 strips.
> 
> http://dilbert.com/



Wow, is that ever perfect.   It's exactly what we are seeing unfold with the "Legacy" website that will probably have similar bugs when the new one is unveiled.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## am1

5 messages left and no call backs today.  In the past after this happens and I finally speak to someone I am told to e-mail the case managers and they will send an e-mail as well but nothing happens.  I send an e-mail through Wyndham contact us and they reply back to use the e-mail address I have been provided and when I tell them I have been doing that with no response they say there is nothing they can do. Meanwhile me credit card keeps getting charged.  So at least that part of Wyndham works just fine.


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## ecwinch

You need to send a demand letter to Wyndham.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_letter


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## wjappraise

Well, I just paid my seventh monthly maintenance fee since my account was suspended.  While I have certain features that are "thawed" I am still not cleared and fully functional.  Anyone else of the impacted owners with any updates?


----------



## am1

wjappraise said:


> Well, I just paid my seventh monthly maintenance fee since my account was suspended.  While I have certain features that are "thawed" I am still not cleared and fully functional.  Anyone else of the impacted owners with any updates?



Nothing but they did manage to change the "hold music"  but then most times it goes to voicemail.  Very unlikely to receive a callback.  

Would be nice if they had enough staff just to answer calls as they come in (considering I have no online access).  Why is a special department needed to cancel my reservations and add guest names?


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## Bigrob

No updates on my end either.


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## wjappraise

Avislo said:


> They can do a line item review while a customer is on the phone for the transaction that is being talked to.  That is what they are probably doing for each call to cancel or add a guest name or for any other transaction that may come up.
> 
> Probably not a special department, probably a para-legal in the Legal Department.
> 
> The pecking orders are Reservations, Owner Care, Title as the case may be.  Then there used to be a escalation department.  They appear to be using the "create a case system" now instead.  Then to the Legal Department.



What does this mean?  How does this relate to suspended accounts?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> What does this mean?  How does this relate to suspended accounts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Double talk. And it means nothing

My guess is that the poster's account is not and was not frozen and he has no idea of what he is talking about, much less what am1 is experiencing or what you are experiencing (or me for that matter)

If the poster is not RRLongwell he went to the same school


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> Double talk. And it means nothing
> 
> My guess is that the poster's account is not and was not frozen and he has no idea of what he is talking about, much less what am1 is experiencing or what you are experiencing (or me for that matter)
> 
> If the poster is not RRLongwell he went to the same school





wjappraise said:


> What does this mean?  How does this relate to suspended accounts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Suspended accounts, at this point, is a little narrow of a definition of what has happened, is happening.  It is actually effecting a lot of accounts through account restrictions, suspensions, ability to buy/sell contracts, limitations on number of units that can be booked at any given resort, collection of a higher fee than what otherwise maybe available for guest certificates but for the restrictions, putting some people in a position of defending their actions in using their accounts where they have done nothing wrong, if one poster is correct - the reduction in demand for resale units, changes in availability coming from changes in behavior of the large users of the system - affected accounts negatively others positively, fall out from policy/practice changes as Wyndham tries to fix what they perceive to be problems, the list goes on.  Some people are being hurt some benefit.  The "Witch Hunt" that resulted in suspended accounts pre-dates and post-dates what happened in August 2016.  As someone that is being affected by this problem, this thread is of interest.  I am not alone judging from the shear huge amounts of hits on this and related threads.

For the record, I do feel bad for what people are going through that used various methods to expand their use of their accounts by other means that got caught
up in this and hope things work out for them.

The best advise I have seen:  basically said cooperate with Wyndham if you have not done something wrong is the way to go.


----------



## wjappraise

Avislo said:


> Suspended accounts, at this point, is a little narrow of a definition of what has happened, is happening.  It is actually effecting a lot of accounts through account restrictions, suspensions, ability to buy/sell contracts, limitations on number of units that can be booked at any given resort, collection of a higher fee than what otherwise maybe available for guest certificates but for the restrictions, putting some people in a position of defending their actions in using their accounts where they have done nothing wrong, if one poster is correct - the reduction in demand for resale units, changes in availability coming from changes in behavior of the large users of the system - affected accounts negatively others positively, fall out from policy/practice changes as Wyndham tries to fix what they perceive to be problems, the list goes on.  Some people are being hurt some benefit.  The "Witch Hunt" that resulted in suspended accounts pre-dates and post-dates what happened in August 2016.  As someone that is being affected by this problem, this thread is of interest.  I am not alone judging from the shear huge amounts of hits on this and related threads.
> 
> For the record, I do feel bad for what people are going through that used various methods to expand their use of their accounts by other means that got caught
> up in this and hope things work out for them.
> 
> The best advise I have seen:  basically said cooperate with Wyndham if you have not done something wrong is the way to go.



I actually followed the logic on a good portion of this post.  I must need professional help.


----------



## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> I actually followed the logic on a good portion of this post.  I must need professional help.



Can you translate??

I started to post a comment  but all I understood was the last paragraph. 

My comment is that this assumes that some of the suspendees have done something wrong. And I don't think that that's the case


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## bobbyoc23

I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this huge thread that some people may have discovered a glitch in Wyndham's system where cancellations would return more than the correct amount of points, discovered how and when it would occur, and took advantage of it? I know there are people who received more than the correct amount of points and voluntarily alerted Wyndham. But I think it was speculated that others took advantage... or maybe I'm misremembering.


----------



## vacationhopeful

If you think Wyndham only has one plan ... you all are wrong. And you all are right.

Wyndham's goal .. IMHO .. is to stop private rentals to gain control of the RACK RATE of rentals ... making purchasing a vacation ownership a far better option. And make money on both ends of the deal. Ovations is restocking the 'inventory' for sale bucket at almost NO COST ... they are selling basicly only CWA contracts .. no deed; hence, no foreclosure process (saving time & money). No troublesome HOAs as the more Wyndham owns and manages the 'points ownership' (also the underlying deeds) .. they more they just run the resorts as their kingdoms ... billing Club Assess's owners. And the higher the MFs go for the CWP owners, the more those owners give back their deeds thru Ovations.

TUG posters regularly suggest buying at resorts having cheaper HOA fees ... and CWA, offered ARP at LOTs of resorts VERSES just 1 ARP resort the CWP owner had. And for a long time, CWA's MFs were lower than many CWP resorts. That appears to be ending. 

Via Ovations, Wyndham is getting more the older resorts back into inventory ... and this inventory MUST LOOK GOOD to all those new & younger CWA owners (renovations must be done). Fees will increase in CWA as more old owners can't ... travel, pay higher MFs, and not not happy with the "new sheriff in town" ... and increasingly turn their ownerships back into Wyndham fixed week intervals & CWP points Ovations).

What I think is ... Club Wyndham Access with become more of Club Wyndham Axis (not a mis-typed word). Wyndham will ...with a 3 man HOA board ... totally run CWA with costs spread among all CWA owners via a MFs. So an independant HOAs will NOT exist ... as CWA will vote their block of owned deeds to improve the resort. Wyndham wins ... the CWA block of deeds VOTEs to upgrade at each resort and CWA fees goes up. Yearly. CWA owners will see increases yearly ,,, when they get annoy and stop paying MFs, it takes only 2 or 3 form letters to terminate their membership. No foreclosure, no lawyers, no court paperwork ... and those certificates are done with.

Getting prime time reservations will become harder ... Florida in February with CWA COULD have 400,000 CWA owners calling for President's Birthday week ... at Santa Barbara 90 units ... which maybe still has 15 FW owners that week. Leaving 75 units available ... and Royal Vista only has 93 units all UDI points last year ... but maybe next year, 15% will be CWA points. And Sea Gardens, still has a lot of Fixed Week Winter deeds held privately ... but it witll become CWA majority, too.

Will CWA be a good thing ... yes, it will keep the lesser/older resorts with paid MFs ,, but the unhappy CWA members will increase as those owners change from going to Bonnet Creek with hundreds of rooms to Santa Barbara with 90 units.

Wyndham has build a MEGA-CLUB .. CWA .. it now, needs to build more MEGA-RESORTs in the very high demand areas.


----------



## bnoble

bobbyoc23 said:


> I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this huge thread that some people may have discovered a glitch in Wyndham's system where cancellations would return more than the correct amount of points, discovered how and when it would occur, and took advantage of it?


I do not believe anyone has said the glitch is reliably repeatable; just that it happens. But, I might have missed it.


----------



## ronparise

bobbyoc23 said:


> I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this huge thread that some people may have discovered a glitch in Wyndham's system where cancellations would return more than the correct amount of points, discovered how and when it would occur, and took advantage of it? I know there are people who received more than the correct amount of points and voluntarily alerted Wyndham. But I think it was speculated that others took advantage... or maybe I'm misremembering.



I'm pretty sure that's right, at least half way right

There were certainly times that "extra" points were returned when reservations were cancelled, but I don't think anyone could make it happen at will. I think it was an unpredictable thing but if it happened with a certain reservation, I'm guessing you could keep cancelling that reservation to make it happen again and again.

Having said that I don't know whether anyone here did or didn't take advantage or did or didn't notify Wyndham or as I said in my post; I don't know if anyone did anything wrong

And without that knowledge I'm going to stop short of accusing anyone of any wrongdoing.

And speaking as someone closer to this than most and only for myself, I know I didn't do anything wrong and I take offense when someone looking at this thing from the outside with no direct knowledge of what's going on, suggests that anyone did. And I especially don't like it from a conspiricy theorist formerly known as rrlongwell


----------



## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> If you think Wyndham only has one plan ... you all are wrong. And you all are right.
> 
> Wyndham's goal .. IMHO .. is to stop private rentals to gain control of the RACK RATE of rentals ... making purchasing a vacation ownership a far better option. And make money on both ends of the deal. Ovations is restocking the 'inventory' for sale bucket at almost NO COST ... they are selling basicly only CWA contracts .. no deed; hence, no foreclosure process (saving time & money). No troublesome HOAs as the more Wyndham owns and manages the 'points ownership' (also the underlying deeds) .. they more they just run the resorts as their kingdoms ... billing Club Assess's owners. And the higher the MFs go for the CWP owners, the more those owners give back their deeds thru Ovations.
> 
> TUG posters regularly suggest buying at resorts having cheaper HOA fees ... and CWA, offered ARP at LOTs of resorts VERSES just 1 ARP resort the CWP owner had. And for a long time, CWA's MFs were lower than many CWP resorts. That appears to be ending.
> 
> Via Ovations, Wyndham is getting more the older resorts back into inventory ... and this inventory MUST LOOK GOOD to all those new & younger CWA owners (renovations must be done). Fees will increase in CWA as more old owners can't ... travel, pay higher MFs, and not not happy with the "new sheriff in town" ... and increasingly turn their ownerships back into Wyndham fixed week intervals & CWP points Ovations).
> 
> What I think is ... Club Wyndham Access with become more of Club Wyndham Axis (not a mis-typed word). Wyndham will ...with a 3 man HOA board ... totally run CWA with costs spread among all CWA owners via a MFs. So an independant HOAs will NOT exist ... as CWA will vote their block of owned deeds to improve the resort. Wyndham wins ... the CWA block of deeds VOTEs to upgrade at each resort and CWA fees goes up. Yearly. CWA owners will see increases yearly ,,, when they get annoy and stop paying MFs, it takes only 2 or 3 form letters to terminate their membership. No foreclosure, no lawyers, no court paperwork ... and those certificates are done with.
> 
> Getting prime time reservations will become harder ... Florida in February with CWA COULD have 400,000 CWA owners calling for President's Birthday week ... at Santa Barbara 90 units ... which maybe still has 15 FW owners that week. Leaving 75 units available ... and Royal Vista only has 93 units all UDI points last year ... but maybe next year, 15% will be CWA points. And Sea Gardens, still has a lot of Fixed Week Winter deeds held privately ... but it witll become CWA majority, too.
> 
> Will CWA be a good thing ... yes, it will keep the lesser/older resorts with paid MFs ,, but the unhappy CWA members will increase as those owners change from going to Bonnet Creek with hundreds of rooms to Santa Barbara with 90 units.
> 
> Wyndham has build a MEGA-CLUB .. CWA .. it now, needs to build more MEGA-RESORTs in the very high demand areas.




What you predict for Wyndham CWA is exactly what is at Worldmark. I believe CWA was copied from the   Worldmark model. with no home resort concept. Every resort is every owners home resort, And there are no megaresorts.  all 230000 owners have exactly the same chance at a reservation at one of the 20 units at Pismo Beach or 32 units at  Monterey  ca, or the 63 in New Orleans and that chance is nearly zero. even less given that Worldmark specifically allows rentals.  Spend some time at one of the Worldmark forums on Facebook, or WMowners and you will see the #1 complaint is I can never get the reservation I want. The entire resort in Hawaii is reserved within seconds, 13 months out


What this has to do with the suspended accounts I dont know...but it is fun to think about


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> ... What this has to do with the suspended accounts I dont know...but it is fun to think about



A broader view of a situation is in order.  From this thread, it sure looks like at least some of Wyndham's mega renters/re-seller competitors were caught up in the net on suspensions.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Avislo said:


> A broader view of a situation is in order.  From this thread, it sure looks like at least some of Wyndham's mega renters/re-seller competitors were caught up in the net on suspensions.



Simply this is from the theater of the absurd .... 65 pages of posts .... RRLongwell (and his intimate multiple personalities) can clearly write this as "an insight" OR "a revelation" for a action by Corporate Wyndham.

Bravo ... I personally never could have come to this level of thought and conscious awareness.

NOT.


----------



## ronparise

Avislo said:


> A broader view of a situation is in order.  From this thread, it sure looks like at least some of Wyndham's mega renters/re-seller competitors were caught up in the net on suspensions.



Duh


----------



## dagger1

[QUOTE="ronparise, post:    

"And I especially don't like it from a conspiricy theorist formerly known as rrlongwell[/QUOTE]"


Hahaha, what did I use to do without TUG!!!!


----------



## wjappraise

Avislo said:


> A broader view of a situation is in order.  From this thread, it sure looks like at least some of Wyndham's mega renters/re-seller competitors were caught up in the net on suspensions.



And a lot of owners who aren't mega renters.  It does appear to be focused on larger points owners who are platinum VIP.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avislo

wjappraise said:


> And a lot of owners who aren't mega renters.  It does appear to be focused on larger points owners who are platinum VIP.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agreed from my point of view.


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## ronparise

The q


wjappraise said:


> And a lot of owners who aren't mega renters.  It does appear to be focused on larger points owners who are platinum VIP.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The question  is: Did the search start with a look at Platinum owners. Or were they looking for something else?

I think that they were looking for accounts that had more reservations than could be explained by the number of points owned. That most of who fit that description were platinum owners and that some fit the definition of megarenter was just coincidence

I still can't figure out why some of my accounts were suspended and some not. All were platinum, all were well over 2 million points and all had roughly 10 times the number of points in reservations as points owned

And if I don't know what the search criteria were I sure Robert dosent

My message here is don't take anything he says about the suspensions seriously


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> The q
> 
> The question  is: Did the search start with a look at Platinum owners. Or were they looking for something else?
> 
> I think that they were looking for accounts that had more reservations than could be explained by the number of points owned. That most of who fit that description were platinum owners and that some fit the definition of megarenter was just coincidence
> 
> I still can't figure out why some of my accounts were suspended and some not. All were platinum, all were well over 2 million points and all had roughly 10 times the number of points in reservations as points owned
> 
> And if I don't know what the search criteria were I sure Robert dosent
> 
> My message here is don't take anything he says about the suspensions seriously



Thank-you for the information.  The way it was worded this time answers a question that keeps coming up in my mind, who pays the bills related these problems.  As it relates to reservations made over and above points owned indicates the losses for this group would go against the Fairfield Trust and/or against other members in  the form of lost or reduced availability for members that have owned points and not the resorts.


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## ronparise

Go back and read the first post in the thread for an answer to your question. It's the trust. Whyndham took action on behalf of the trust

But you can relax. The whole point of what Wyndham is doing is to get back the extra points


Gotta ask though, How is it possible to own points and not resorts?


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> Go back and read the first post in the thread for an answer to your question. It's the trust. Whyndham took action on behalf of the trust
> 
> But you can relax. The whole point of what Wyndham is doing is to get back the extra points
> 
> 
> Gotta ask though, How is it possible to own points and not resorts?



Club Wyndham Access, the club owns at resorts the member owns the points, or so my points certificate indicates.  There are a number of threads that discuss Club Wyndham Access.  Also, there was a thread that indicated some re-sellers get power of attorney, if someone where more interested in making money than using the POA correctly, they could strip the contract of points by making reservations and taking the money then dumping the contract.  To the extent that Wyndham comps points to keep a irate owner happy, this could generate a loss.

Judging from a poster's comment "I think that they were looking for accounts that had more reservations than could be explained by the number of points owned." there may be other ways.

I would hope that someone in the group that have more reservations than points owned would not have gotten these by working with Wyndham employees to do things that they would not do for other members that would be against the rules.

http://wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CWA_Sales_Brochure.pdf


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## ronparise

I understand how CWA works and although the resorts aren't owned directly the points are symbolic of ownership, just as UDI points are symbolic of ownership

Buy for this discussion it's a "who cares" It made no difference to Wyndham whether the "extra" points were CWA points or UDI points or points from converted weeks.  What they saw was  way too many points in the suspended accounts. 

FYI I don't think any of us had any help from anyone in the inside. I know I didn't. The Wyndham employees charged with figuring out just how I "manufactured" points jumped to the same conclusion. They didn't understand that it was a failure of their own systems both computer  systems and human systems. The way I put it is that the right hand dosent know what the left hand is doing


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> I understand how CWA works and although the resorts aren't owned directly the points are symbolic of ownership, just as UDI points are symbolic of ownership
> 
> Buy for this discussion it's a "who cares" It made no difference to Wyndham whether the "extra" points were CWA points or UDI points or points from converted weeks.  What they saw was  way too many points in the suspended accounts.
> 
> FYI I don't think any of us had any help from anyone in the inside. I know I didn't. The Wyndham employees charged with figuring out just how I "manufactured" points jumped to the same conclusion. They didn't understand that it was a failure of their own systems both computer  systems and human systems. The way I put it is that the right hand dosent know what the left hand is doing



With Wyndham, the right hand never did meet the left hand let alone know what each other do.

Thank you for correcting my terminology, I did not know these points were referred to as "Manufactured" Points.


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## ronparise

Avislo said:


> With Wyndham, the right hand never did meet the left hand let alone know what each other do.
> 
> Thank you for correcting my terminology, I did not know these points were referred to as "Manufactured" Points.



Thats one of the terms I have used, you can call them whatever you want.  , Ive also referred to them as "extra" points. Some have said that they are "stolen" points.  But what they really are, are my points, bought and paid for. (At least thats my story and Im sticking to it)

All thats important at this point is that wyndham is, on behalf of Club Wyndham Plus (the fairshare trust) taking them back


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> ... They didn't understand that it was a failure of their own systems both computer  systems and human systems ...



Care to explain what the failure of the human systems is?

I do not know of anyone that follows what the top people of the Fairfield Trust et. al. are doing.  What impact of Frantz Hanning departure will have on the computer and human systems failures?  According to at least one earlier report he was going to stay in Wyndham through March in a different capacity than he had held for awhile.


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## ronparise

Im trying to say people made mistakes. Or made decisions without considering  all the available facts or consulting their colleagues. I probably should have called it a failure of management systems instead of what I did

What I'm talking about is the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Others with more managerial experience than me, used the word "silos"


For example: wjappraise has posted here that he saw extra points in his account, and that he notified someone at Wyndham. The response that he got was that there was no problem. There was a computer problem but that no one at Wyndham could see it, or admit to it, was a "people problem"

Another example. We all knew that there was a problem with credit pooling. There came a time when what used to be a 5 minute phone call would take hours on the phone. The problem was a computer problem. But that the owner care staff that were in the middle of it,  didnt get management people interested,  was a "people problem" 

I found it shocking that in my first meeting with Wyndham, after my accounts were suspended,  they asked me how I did it. I thought it was a trap to get me to tell them which if their employees I had paid off to give me "extra" points. Their assumption was the same one you made somewhere upthread and that was I must be working with someone on the inside. They were looking for names. When I told them how I did what I did, they were genuinely confused. They didn't get it. I had to educate them on how their own system worked and how I used it.

Here's a short story that will tell you just how little they knew about their own club.  One of my interrogators asked me if I ever used a technique known as "cancel and rebook" to capture discounts. My answer was "yes, this rental thing that I do dosent work without it. That's were the profits are". He followed that question with another, asking me if I was VIP. That took me aback and I asked him if that was a serious question. When he said yes it was, I exploded. "0f course I'm a VIP owner, you know that, you just asked me about discounts. VIP owners are the only owners that get discounts. You either don't know your own system or you are playing the lawyers trick of asking the same question over and over trying to catch me in a lie". I went on to say that I understood that they had a problem and that I drove the three hours to meet with them to open my books and show them exactly how I did what I did, with the expectation that we were going to work toward a solution of their problem. I asked that they get someone in the room that knew what they were talking about and that would treat me with a little respect.

That was a people problem and once they got the right people involved we moved forward to a resolution


It's easy to blame all this on computers but it goes deeper to what i called the "human systems". As I said above I should have said management systems


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> Im trying to say people made mistakes. Or made decisions without considering  all the available facts or consulting their colleagues. I probably should have called it a failure of management systems instead of what I did
> 
> What I'm talking about is the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Others with more managerial experience than me, used the word "silos"
> 
> 
> For example: wjappraise has posted here that he saw extra points in his account, and that he notified someone at Wyndham. The response that he got was that there was no problem. There was a computer problem but that no one at Wyndham could see it, or admit to it, was a "people problem"
> 
> Another example. We all knew that there was a problem with credit pooling. There came a time when what used to be a 5 minute phone call would take hours on the phone. The problem was a computer problem. But that the owner care staff that were in the middle of it,  didnt get management people interested,  was a "people problem"
> 
> I found it shocking that in my first meeting with Wyndham, after my accounts were suspended,  they asked me how I did it. I thought it was a trap to get me to tell them which if their employees I had paid off to give me "extra" points. Their assumption was the same one you made somewhere upthread and that was I must be working with someone on the inside. They were looking for names. When I told them how I did what I did, they were genuinely confused. They didn't get it. I had to educate them on how their own system worked and how I used it.
> 
> Here's a short story that will tell you just how little they knew about their own club.  One of my interrogators asked me if I ever used a technique known as "cancel and rebook" to capture discounts. My answer was "yes, this rental thing that I do dosent work without it. That's were the profits are". He followed that question with another, asking me if I was VIP. That took me aback and I asked him if that was a serious question. When he said yes it was, I exploded. "0f course I'm a VIP owner, you know that, you just asked me about discounts. VIP owners are the only owners that get discounts. You either don't know your own system or you are playing the lawyers trick of asking the same question over and over trying to catch me in a lie". I went on to say that I understood that they had a problem and that I drove the three hours to meet with them to open my books and show them exactly how I did what I did, with the expectation that we were going to work toward a solution of their problem. I asked that they get someone in the room that knew what they were talking about and that would treat me with a little respect.
> 
> That was a people problem and once they got the right people involved we moved forward to a resolution
> 
> 
> It's easy to blame all this on computers but it goes deeper to what i called the "human systems". As I said above I should have said management systems



Thanks for the information.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> It's easy to blame all this on computers but it goes deeper to what i called the "human systems". As I said above I should have said management systems



Don't forget - computer problems are human problems.  It appears Wyndham has not sufficiently invested in its IT department, especially its beta testing.  In my opinion that's their biggest problem, rivaled only by their arrogance.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Don't forget - computer problems are human problems.  It appears Wyndham has not sufficiently invested in its IT department, especially its beta testing.  In my opinion that's their biggest problem, rivaled only by their arrogance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




agree completely


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## Avislo

wjappraise said:


> Don't forget - computer problems are human problems.  It appears Wyndham has not sufficiently invested in its IT department, especially its beta testing.  In my opinion that's their biggest problem, rivaled only by their arrogance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agree.


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## Sandy VDH

I understood exactly what you were getting at Ron.  

They have computer issues, as they are programed but are NOT bug free.
They have people issues, as they are human and make mistakes, both typos and of understanding.
They have management issues, making assumptions about things, and think they know what is going on. 
The have arrogance issues, they think they are always right. 

All that converges into what is the problem.  It is not a single item, but rather a combination of all of them.


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## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> I understood exactly what you were getting at Ron.
> 
> They have computer issues, as they are programed but are NOT bug free.
> They have people issues, as they are human and make mistakes, both typos and of understanding.
> They have management issues, making assumptions about things, and think they know what is going on.
> The have arrogance issues, they think they are always right.
> 
> All that converges into what is the problem.  It is not a single item, but rather a combination of all of them.



Thanks for the feedback. The older I get the more I ramble.  It's nice to know that I made at least a little sense


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## Bigrob

Other than Ron, are there any others who have had their situation fully resolved?


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## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> Other than Ron, are there any others who have had their situation fully resolved?



Actually there are some loose ends I'm still working on

And there was someone else that posted here that they were done

My best guess is that they can't wrap things up until after voyager is rolled out


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## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> Other than Ron, are there any others who have had their situation fully resolved?



Nothing is resolved for me.  And I have not heard of anyone except Ron and Jedinprescott who are resolved.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Here's a short story that will tell you just how little they knew about their own club.  One of my interrogators asked me if I ever used a technique known as "cancel and rebook" to capture discounts. My answer was "yes, this rental thing that I do dosent work without it. That's were the profits are". He followed that question with another, asking me if I was VIP. That took me aback and I asked him if that was a serious question. When he said yes it was, I exploded. "0f course I'm a VIP owner, you know that, you just asked me about discounts. VIP owners are the only owners that get discounts. You either don't know your own system or you are playing the lawyers trick of asking the same question over and over trying to catch me in a lie". I went on to say that I understood that they had a problem and that I drove the three hours to meet with them to open my books and show them exactly how I did what I did, with the expectation that we were going to work toward a solution of their problem. I asked that they get someone in the room that knew what they were talking about and that would treat me with a little respect.
> 
> That was a people problem and once they got the right people involved we moved forward to a resolution
> 
> 
> It's easy to blame all this on computers but it goes deeper to what i called the "human systems". As I said above I should have said management systems


Ron I have to admit this is breathtaking. Either they didn't take you seriously or they don't have the foggiest idea how to process information. Did they think they wree the FBI? In the end, the worst they can do it take your account, and charge you no more fees and even then they are likely to end of with damager If someone owned enough points to make the lawyer option worthwhile.

That having been said, what was his response? Did he poke back or did he jump up to get someone? How long into these meetings did you finally meet someone who said AH-HA? Finally, the question about cancel-rebook.I'm curious did they think it was that simple or did they think that there is some problem with people doing cancel - rebook? I'm not sure I understood that comment.


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## ronparise

Regarding cancel and rebook, I'm sure they knew that some of used that technique to make money. But I'm not sure they knew that it didn't generate points. They did know that when I was done because I told them exactly how it worked, or more to the point, how I used it and I told them how I was able to generate "extra" points

From my perspective we closed that meeting having accomplished nothing except perhaps that I knew more than they did.  I had one more phone call with those guys that went nowhere

The suspension was August 23. It took about 2 weeks of spinning our wheels before I got a call from someone that did know what they were doing, treated me with respect and accepted the fact that I wanted to work things out; not fight
They did know I was talking to lawyers some of whom they knew from past dealings and they knew I had enough points that it would be worthwhile to hire one if I had to. We each had our ah-ha moment  and ultimately we "satisfactorily resolved our differences" because ultimately we both wanted the same thing

Although I don't know for sure, I think they used our "satisfactory resolution" as a template for the work they are doing with other suspendees, 

I don't harbor and anger toward Wyndham or any of the people I worked with. I don't think they had any idea that what I was doing could be done within the rules, or that I wasn't the only one doing it. (And no im not going to tell you what it was,)and I understand that they couldn't allow it to continue.


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## am1

I am still waiting for contact since November.  I thought we were getting somewhere but then nothing.  I do know I have hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.


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## John or Jane Doe

Nothing has been resolved for me, either.  There was a time when phone calls or emails were returned, but it's been a long time (November for me, too).  Requests for callbacks or additional information since November have been ignored. 

I don't have any problems using my account.  But I have never been "cleared", either. That means, as far as I know, that I still have restrictions (can't pay maintenance with points and can't sell any contracts). Ha - maybe I should try - maybe I can do it and they just forgot to tell me?  

I am fairly certain that the reason our account was suspended was for rolling points. Those accumulated points have now been used, given away for free or at deep discounts, or have expired. For me it feels like any opportunity for recovery (on Wyndham's part) has expired. Perhaps that is me trying to be logical, but it feels like this should be over. I did the best I could to manage things not knowing what Wyndham was/is going to do.

My account has had it's use years aligned (I was not aligned in the original effort years ago - I believe because I had a contract they didn't know what to do with therefore they did nothing). I was aligned in November - with no prorating/compensation for moving my use years forward. By my accounting I lost about 1M points in the process. Whey I called, they requested an audit be done. This resulted with them saying there aren't any missing points - but they cannot explain where I was ever given 2018 points (because I wasn't). Truly, they really still don't "get it" (and that is pretty scary).  I was given a copy of the audit and all it was was about and inch thick of pages of transaction history. There are no points balance, no indication of what use year the points are from or if they are regular or credit pooled points (4 columns - activity date, travel date, activity description, points used/issued. And no explanation. If that's all the auditors have to work with it's no wonder they can't get anything straight.

I just noticed, the cover letter states:
 The amount of points remaining on your account is xxxx and may be used for:
 - Booking reservations with Club Wyndham Plus
 - Depositing into your external exchange company, RCI, until the end of your use year.

I guess that means the restrictions are still in place. It really is unbelievable that after all this time nothing seems to have changed - including continued issues with the credit pooled points. Quite comically, I've purchased a few new contracts with different use years and they were not aligned.  Truly unbelievable that nothing has changed.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> Actually there are some loose ends I'm still working on
> 
> And there was someone else that posted here that they were done
> 
> My best guess is that they can't wrap things up until after voyager is rolled out



Ron - Why would voyager rollout be required to reconcile accounts that have been either fully or semi suspended for going on 8 months now?   Aren't they separate events?   My suspension is due to a bloated points account due to IT issues that Wyndham has had plenty of time to identify and resolve.  If their incompetence is so pervasive then they should be reaching out to the impacted owners, especially those of us who are willing to post on this forum our experiences.  My last reach out communication from Wyndham was in October.  That's almost six months ago.  That is inexcusable!!!    


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Ron - Why would voyager rollout be required to reconcile accounts that have been either fully or semi suspended for going on 8 months now?   Aren't they separate events?   My suspension is due to a bloated points account due to IT issues that Wyndham has had plenty of time to identify and resolve.  If their incompetence is so pervasive then they should be reaching out to the impacted owners, especially those of us who are willing to post on this forum our experiences.  My last reach out communication from Wyndham was in October.  That's almost six months ago.  That is inexcusable!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




You and others have reported that the computer glitches that resulted in so many points being generated,  still glitch. So it seems to me that part of the resolution from Wydhams perspective is to fix the computer so it cant happen again>  and I think they are banking on Voyager to do that

Im nit trying to excuse wyndham for the lack of communication, only offering a possible explanation for the delay


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## tschwa2

Most of the recent posts about current problems seem to be points returning to the wrong pools and maybe the wrong number of points being returned (that I interpreted as not enough being returned- not extra).


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## John or Jane Doe

tschwa2 said:


> Most of the recent posts about current problems seem to be points returning to the wrong pools and maybe the wrong number of points being returned (that I interpreted as not enough being returned- not extra).



My experience has been:
* Credit pooled points not returning to the correct pool (sometimes as regular vs. credit pooled). The amount was correct, the use year bucket was not (I've seen this in the past month). These errors tend to favor Wyndham (not tend to, always have in my experience).
* What I perceive as missing points (Wyndham does not agree) due to the manual and inconsistent process of realigning use years (although IMO it seems fraudulent to me for them to move use years forward and not compensate the owner in any way. If my points had an April 1 - March 31 use year, and they get moved forward to a Jan 1 - Dec 31 use year, then I pay maintenance for 9 months of points that I never receive.  If Wyndham is doing that (albeit inconsistent) that seems borderline fraudulent to me.

Given the things we are able to see are not fixed - it's hard to imagine that anything else (some of the other system issues) have been fixed either.

Note that rolling points forward was "fixed" by eliminating cancelled points and while stripping contracts may still continue, Wyndham (Ovations) is likely not taking back stripped contracts.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> You and others have reported that the computer glitches that resulted in so many points being generated,  still glitch. So it seems to me that part of the resolution from Wydhams perspective is to fix the computer so it cant happen again>  and I think they are banking on Voyager to do that
> 
> Im nit trying to excuse wyndham for the lack of communication, only offering a possible explanation for the delay



Thanks Ron.   

I would hope they have fixed the glitch.  It's quite incredible that Wyndham has chosen to blame and vilify its owners for limitations of its IT program.  Maybe an apology from them would help us. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TeleiosMan

It is my belief that there is likely some punitive motive at play as well.  There are owners who knew, or should have known, that the system was allowing them to make many more reservations than their truly correct point allotment should allow for.  Some owners were locked due to inadequate understanding of legitimate scenarios, but others may have been locked, and may continue to be locked, because of 'illegitimate' scenarios.  Like going to the ATM and withdrawing $500 from an account with $2,000 in the account, but having the ability to do this hundreds of times.  In that scenario, the Bank believes that the customer knew, or should have known, that his account was not being properly credited and was taking advantage of a glitch.  There may only be a tiny minority of individuals who fall into this bucket, but those locked for illegitimate scenarios should not be holding their breath for an apology from Wyndham.


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## ronparise

TeleiosMan said:


> It is my belief that there is likely some punitive motive at play as well.  There are owners who knew, or should have known, that the system was allowing them to make many more reservations than their truly correct point allotment should allow for.  Some owners were locked due to inadequate understanding of legitimate scenarios, but others may have been locked, and may continue to be locked, because of 'illegitimate' scenarios.  Like going to the ATM and withdrawing $500 from an account with $2,000 in the account, but having the ability to do this hundreds of times.  In that scenario, the Bank believes that the customer knew, or should have known, that his account was not being properly credited and was taking advantage of a glitch.  There may only be a tiny minority of individuals who fall into this bucket, but those locked for illegitimate scenarios should not be holding their breath for an apology from Wyndham.



I don't think any of us can look forward to apologies. I used to think that how we are treated had to do with whether we "knowingly" took advantage of a glitch or not. I've now come to the opinion that knowing or not knowing dosent make a difference. Neither does it matter whether it was a Wyndham error or not. I really think all they want is to get their points back.

Having said that, I don't understand why it's taking so long. It seems as if they can only deal with a few cases at a time and of course, delayed resolution, one could argue, is punishment

How we are treated (with respect or not) seems to have more to do with how we treat them. Respect seems to get respect and cooperation gets cooperation.

I don't think "punishment" enters into their thinking at all except perhaps in one case. And probably not even there

Just my opinion (but based on my experience)


----------



## ecwinch

TeleiosMan said:


> It is my belief that there is likely some punitive motive at play as well.  There are owners who knew, or should have known, that the system was allowing them to make many more reservations than their truly correct point allotment should allow for.  Some owners were locked due to inadequate understanding of legitimate scenarios, but others may have been locked, and may continue to be locked, because of 'illegitimate' scenarios.  Like going to the ATM and withdrawing $500 from an account with $2,000 in the account, but having the ability to do this hundreds of times.  In that scenario, the Bank believes that the customer knew, or should have known, that his account was not being properly credited and was taking advantage of a glitch.  There may only be a tiny minority of individuals who fall into this bucket, but those locked for illegitimate scenarios should not be holding their breath for an apology from Wyndham.



Here is a more accurate analogy:

It's like having millions of dollars in the bank, and on random occasions you make a ATM withdrawal and the correct funds are not properly withdrawn from your account. Say one out of every fifty transactions. And having a lot of money in the bank, you don't see the need to balance your checkbook.

And in what universe does the bank expect the client to be better at keeping the account balance, than the bank?

And imagine - in your scenario - the bank cannot point out the transactions where they failed to accurately withdraw the correct amount. They just say they "know" your account balance is wrong, but cannot provide the audit trail showing what your correct acct balance should be.


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## ronparise

ecwinch said:


> Here is a more accurate analogy:
> 
> It's like having millions of dollars in the bank, and on random occasions you make a ATM withdrawal and the correct funds are not properly withdrawn from your account. Say one out of every fifty transactions. And having a lot of money in the bank, you don't see the need to balance your checkbook.
> 
> And in what universe does the bank expect the client to be better at keeping the account balance, than the bank?
> 
> And imagine - in your scenario - the bank cannot point out the transactions where they failed to accurately withdraw the correct amount. They just say they "know" your account balance is wrong, but cannot provide the audit trail showing what your correct acct balance should be.



Perfect and 
exactly right..  which is why I say punishment is not a thing here

and you have given us a reason (the reason) this isnt resolved... Wyndham knows we have more points then we should (and so do we) but no one can figure out exactly how many too many


----------



## TeleiosMan

ecwinch said:


> Here is a more accurate analogy:
> 
> It's like having millions of dollars in the bank, and on random occasions you make a ATM withdrawal and the correct funds are not properly withdrawn from your account. Say one out of every fifty transactions. And having a lot of money in the bank, you don't see the need to balance your checkbook.
> 
> And in what universe does the bank expect the client to be better at keeping the account balance, than the bank?
> 
> And imagine - in your scenario - the bank cannot point out the transactions where they failed to accurately withdraw the correct amount. They just say they "know" your account balance is wrong, but cannot provide the audit trail showing what your correct acct balance should be.



Your analogy may be accurate as it relates to the scenario you are outlining.  What I am suggesting is that, at least in a tiny minority of cases, the ratio was far, far higher than 1:50.  High enough that a punitive motive is at play as well.  The 1:50 guys would be collateral damage while the fiasco is sorted out.


----------



## ecwinch

TeleiosMan said:


> Your analogy may be accurate as it relates to the scenario you are outlining.  What I am suggesting is that, at least in a tiny minority of cases, the ratio was far, far higher than 1:50.  High enough that a punitive motive is at play as well.  The 1:50 guys would be collateral damage while the fiasco is sorted out.



And what do you point to support your suggestion that it was much higher for a minority of cases?  The inference is that someone figured out a loophole that they were exploiting. When combined with your OP, that implies that some of those who have documented their problems are getting what they deserved.

Because if it was in fact punitive - then someone here might be entitled to punitive damages for having their accts frozen.


----------



## TeleiosMan

ronparise said:


> Perfect and
> exactly right..  which is why I say punishment is not a thing here
> 
> and you have given us a reason (the reason) this isnt resolved... Wyndham knows we have more points then we should (and so do we) but no one can figure out exactly how many too many



I am not so convinced that the Bank would shut down certain customers' access to their accounts because of a 1 in 50 transaction problem across that customer base.  They investigate it and then correct the accounts as appropriate.  But if they are seeing what amounts to a 25:50 or 40:50 problem, then things get interesting.  The 1:50 or 0:50 guys, further facilitated by a collegial disposition, may have a quicker and less uncomfortable go of it.  The others, well, good luck.

Full disclosure: I am not Robert Longwell and although I do have some personal experience that is very pertinent to this situation, I am speculating and do not purport to know with a high degree of confidence of which I speak.


----------



## Bigrob

TeleiosMan said:


> I am not so convinced that the Bank would shut down certain customers' access to their accounts because of a 1 in 50 transaction problem across that customer base.  They investigate it and then correct the accounts as appropriate.  But if they are seeing what amounts to a 25:50 or 40:50 problem, then things get interesting.  The 1:50 or 0:50 guys, further facilitated by a collegial disposition, may have a quicker and less uncomfortable go of it.  The others, well, good luck.
> 
> Full disclosure: I am not Robert Longwell and although I do have some personal experience that is very pertinent to this situation, I am speculating and do not purport to know with a high degree of confidence of which I speak.



Don't worry. No one was confusing you with RRLongwell/Avislo/lcm. It's clear you have a unique and informed perspective. If it is as I suspect you probably are unable to share why you know what you do. If I were putting two and two together, I might suspect that a frequent poster to this thread who is being treated differently from the rest of the set is in fact being subjected to the "punitive" treatment you've described.


----------



## Avislo

ecwinch said:


> And what do you point to support your suggestion that it was much higher for a minority of cases?  The inference is that someone figured out a loophole that they were exploiting. When combined with your OP, that implies that some of those who have documented their problems are getting what they deserved.
> 
> Because if it was in fact punitive - then someone here might be entitled to punitive damages for having their accts frozen.



Could be.  But that would take a lawsuit to get it.


----------



## ecwinch

Ergo my signature line.


----------



## dagger1

Avislo said:


> Could be.  But that would take a lawsuit to get it.


----------



## Avislo

TeleiosMan said:


> It is my belief that there is likely some punitive motive at play as well.  There are owners who knew, or should have known, that the system was allowing them to make many more reservations than their truly correct point allotment should allow for.  Some owners were locked due to inadequate understanding of legitimate scenarios, but others may have been locked, and may continue to be locked, because of 'illegitimate' scenarios.  Like going to the ATM and withdrawing $500 from an account with $2,000 in the account, but having the ability to do this hundreds of times.  In that scenario, the Bank believes that the customer knew, or should have known, that his account was not being properly credited and was taking advantage of a glitch.  There may only be a tiny minority of individuals who fall into this bucket, but those locked for illegitimate scenarios should not be holding their breath for an apology from Wyndham.



Definition from the Internet:

"From these definitions, you can get an idea that a _hack_ is a procedure or a way of doing something that:

Demonstrates cleverness or ingenuity
Solves a meaningful problem
Is not a common or well-known solution to the problem
May not be the most straightforward or appropriate solution"
Wyndham probably believes they have been "Hacked" under definition number 4.  Others that used the various "Tricks"  may believe they would be covered under definition number 1.  Arguably, Wyndham is trying to respond using definition number 3.

The punitive theory does explain a lot on why when restrictions are placed on someone they do not come off easy. 

By the way, I do not speak for others, however, I am not you nor is the picture being used by someone making fun of me a picture of me.  Best of luck with you informative posts.


----------



## Sandi Bo

ecwinch said:


> Here is a more accurate analogy:
> 
> It's like having millions of dollars in the bank, and on random occasions you make a ATM withdrawal and the correct funds are not properly withdrawn from your account. Say one out of every fifty transactions. And having a lot of money in the bank, you don't see the need to balance your checkbook.
> 
> And in what universe does the bank expect the client to be better at keeping the account balance, than the bank?
> 
> And imagine - in your scenario - the bank cannot point out the transactions where they failed to accurately withdraw the correct amount. They just say they "know" your account balance is wrong, but cannot provide the audit trail showing what your correct acct balance should be.



Adding a little more color to the banking scenario.  The bank is not able to provide you a real time balance as you transact throughout the day. 6 out of 7 days of the week they usually provide a beginning balance each day (but not always). You can call a teller and they will manual total your points for you. You may have learned some tricks that allow you to somewhat, but not with complete detail, check your point balances as you transact. And if you suspect an error you will likely be told it could take 48 hours for your account to update.


----------



## comicbookman

Avislo said:


> Definition from the Internet:
> 
> "From these definitions, you can get an idea that a _hack_ is a procedure or a way of doing something that:
> 
> Demonstrates cleverness or ingenuity
> Solves a meaningful problem
> Is not a common or well-known solution to the problem
> May not be the most straightforward or appropriate solution"
> Wyndham probably believes they have been "Hacked" under definition number 4.  Others that used the various "Tricks"  may believe they would be covered under definition number 1.  Arguably, Wyndham is trying to respond using definition number 3.
> 
> The punitive theory does explain a lot on why when restrictions are placed on someone they do not come off easy.
> 
> By the way, I do not speak for others, however, I am not you nor is the picture being used by someone making fun of me a picture of me.  Best of luck with you informative posts.



Actually, incompetence and an unwillingness to believe nothing nefarious is going on is a better explanation of why restrictions do not come off easily.  Wyndham's poor communication fits this theory far better than the punitive one.  Your definition of Hack is completely irrelevant, as is most of what you post.  The current situation has nothing to do with the dictionary.


----------



## dagger1

Avislo said:


> Definition from the Internet:
> 
> "From these definitions, you can get an idea that a _hack_ is a procedure or a way of doing something that:
> 
> Demonstrates cleverness or ingenuity
> Solves a meaningful problem
> Is not a common or well-known solution to the problem
> May not be the most straightforward or appropriate solution"
> Wyndham probably believes they have been "Hacked" under definition number 4.  Others that used the various "Tricks"  may believe they would be covered under definition number 1.  Arguably, Wyndham is trying to respond using definition number 3.
> 
> The punitive theory does explain a lot on why when restrictions are placed on someone they do not come off easy.
> 
> By the way, I do not speak for others, however, I am not you nor is the picture being used by someone making fun of me a picture of me.  Best of luck with you informative posts.


----------



## wjappraise

comicbookman said:


> Actually, incompetence and an unwillingness to believe nothing nefarious is going on is a better explanation of why restrictions do not come off easily.  Wyndham's poor communication fits this theory far better than the punitive one.  Your definition of Hack is completely irrelevant, as is most of what you post.  The current situation has nothing to do with the dictionary.



Bingo!  As has been noted here, Wyndham's actions in this matter well illustrate the unholy alliance of ignorance and arrogance.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

dagger1 said:


> View attachment 3526



Oh my goodness.  That GIF is priceless.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dagger1

wjappraise said:


> Oh my goodness.  That GIF is priceless.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This "thumbs up" guy seems to be the only one that understands/agrees with Avislo/RRLongwell/llmc1....


----------



## ronparise

I often times agree once I understand what he's trying to say


----------



## wjappraise

dagger1 said:


> This "thumbs up" guy seems to be the only one that understands/agrees with Avislo/RRLongwell/llmc1....



I love the fact that he felt the need to state that was not truly a picture of him!   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BellaWyn

wjappraise said:


> I love the fact that he felt the need to state that was not truly a picture of him!


HA!  WJ, was just thinking that same thing!  LOL!

I go away for 3 weeks and come back to still more RL / Ron / head-scratching diatribe.  

To the others that posted updated information specifically about the suspended accounts -- Thank you!


----------



## Bigrob

So I received a call today - will have a follow-up call tomorrow - to set up a convenient time to "re-freeze" my account. The "re-freeze" is supposed to take 48 hours during which time they are going to complete (yet another) points audit... although if it's possible in 48 hours, it makes one wonder why it hasn't been possible after 6+ months.  The glimmer of hope is that after this my account has been promised to be "fully reconciled". I don't know if I received this call because I had a couple of call recently trying to identify what happened to the points I credit pooled back in December or what. But if we can get to a resolution it will be a weight off my mind. Anyone else get a call like this recently?


----------



## am1

Best of luck.  Hopefully your account gets fully restored and there are no surprises.


----------



## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> So I received a call today - will have a follow-up call tomorrow - to set up a convenient time to "re-freeze" my account. The "re-freeze" is supposed to take 48 hours during which time they are going to complete (yet another) points audit... although if it's possible in 48 hours, it makes one wonder why it hasn't been possible after 6+ months.  The glimmer of hope is that after this my account has been promised to be "fully reconciled". I don't know if I received this call because I had a couple of call recently trying to identify what happened to the points I credit pooled back in December or what. But if we can get to a resolution it will be a weight off my mind. Anyone else get a call like this recently?



No phone call for me.  I wish you well.  I cannot believe after all these months they still don't have these accounts reconciled.  What did they do when our accounts were frozen?   Was it truly just punitive as Robert/avislo has claimed?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BellaWyn

BigRob said:
			
		

> So I received a call today -


Rob, appreciate the update.  Thank you.



wjappraise said:


> No phone call for me.  I wish you well.  I cannot believe after all these months they still don't have these accounts reconciled.  What did they do when our accounts were frozen?   Was it truly just punitive as Robert/avislo has claimed?
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Did not get any significant meat from the Robert/TeliosMan punitive discussion.  Other, more experienced (_and transparent in their identity_) posters have pointed out numerous times in this thread that a lot of this situation falls to Wyn's:

  1) lack of understanding of their own systems
  2) incompetence in their IT processes
  3) limitations in personnel able to handle complex audit / CS situations.

There is really not much to motivate WYN at this juncture, short of legal involvement, to hurry up and finish.  Seven months of dragging their feet in an audit process is ridiculous, especially without interim contact during the process.  Sometimes audits DO take time (am currently still working through a client audit that started in May 2016).  But almost without exception the auditors have regular interim contact with the assigned contact person specific to the account being scrutinized.  *Wyn's lack of communication on these suspended accounts is shameful and professionally inexcusable, but not that unusual.*

When we first changed over from VIP Plat to PR the program had only been out for 3 weeks.  They didn't bother to tell us that once we switched, we would have zero access to the online booking system which we had enjoyed since they rolled the online system out.  That was discovered within less than 3 hours of signing the contract for PR.  We walked back to the sales people and insisted they cancel the PR contract.  They put us immediately in touch with corporate who told us that the PR owners would enjoy access again in "very short order" and insisted it would take less than 30-days to get us back to online booking access again.

*It took them 14 months.
*
Not the same as being fully suspended, no question, but certainly irksome and annoying to be locked out of access then and being made to consume time to do simple tasks that could be done with a point & click.  And there seems to be no reasonable hierarchy one can scale to get improved, or even any, information.  

They have mastered the "stonewall" method of communication.  *<--- NOT a compliment!*


----------



## Bigrob

wjappraise said:


> No phone call for me.  I wish you well.  I cannot believe after all these months they still don't have these accounts reconciled.  What did they do when our accounts were frozen?   Was it truly just punitive as Robert/avislo has claimed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I don't think it was punitive by design. I just don't think they had a good process worked out for how to resolve the issues. FYI, it was TeliosMan, not Robert/Avislo/lcm that suggested it was punitive.
.


----------



## BellaWyn

Bigrob said:


> I don't think it was punitive by design. I just don't think they had a good process worked out for how to resolve the issues. FYI, it was TeliosMan, not Robert/Avislo/lcm that suggested it was punitive.
> .


Agree, hence the "no meat" in the discussion perspective.  Stand corrected on the Avislo vs TeliosMan.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Edited post accordingly.


----------



## Avislo

Bigrob said:


> So I received a call today - will have a follow-up call tomorrow - to set up a convenient time to "re-freeze" my account. The "re-freeze" is supposed to take 48 hours during which time they are going to complete (yet another) points audit... although if it's possible in 48 hours, it makes one wonder why it hasn't been possible after 6+ months.  The glimmer of hope is that after this my account has been promised to be "fully reconciled". I don't know if I received this call because I had a couple of call recently trying to identify what happened to the points I credit pooled back in December or what. But if we can get to a resolution it will be a weight off my mind. Anyone else get a call like this recently?



Hope your call went well yesterday and that your account became unfrozen today or by morning.  It is unfortunate the "suspending" process is still going on.


----------



## Bigrob

I had the call and like Ron I have been asked to sign an NDA so I won't be able to share information about the progress or process.


----------



## Avislo

Bigrob said:


> I had the call and like Ron I have been asked to sign an NDA so I won't be able to share information about the progress or process.



If the settlement is something you can live with congratulations.


----------



## Bigrob

We are not talking settlement yet. The re-assessment has not been performed yet.


----------



## Avislo

Bigrob said:


> We are not talking settlement yet. The re-assessment has not been performed yet.



Wish you well through the process.


----------



## am1

Not sure I would sign a NDA without knowing what the outcome/compensation was going to be.  It would have to be a helluva deal.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Not sure I would sign a NDA without knowing what the outcome/compensation was going to be.  It would have to be a helluva deal.



I didn't have to sign anything ahead of our negotiation but I would have.
Why not?


----------



## ecwinch

Why would not sign an NDA?


----------



## BellaWyn

ecwinch said:


> Why would not sign an NDA?


Conversely, why is NDA necessary in the first place?


----------



## bogey21

It is easy for me to pontificate as I am not a Wyndham Owner and thus not involved in this mess.  But here goes anyway.  If I could enter into an agreement with Wyndham that would guarantee me 100% unfettered ability to use my account and the amount of points in my account following the agreement were reasonably close to what I think they should be, I would sign almost anything in a minute just to get all this behind me.

George


----------



## BellaWyn

bogey21 said:


> It is easy for me to pontificate as I am not a Wyndham Owner and thus not involved in this mess.  But here goes anyway.  If I could enter into an agreement with Wyndham that would guarantee me 100% unfettered ability to use my account and the amount of points in my account following the agreement were reasonably close to what I think they should be, I would sign in a minute just to get all this behind me.
> 
> George


George, the NDA doesn't accomplish any of that for the suspended owners.   From what I have gleaned, it merely is CYA for Wyn.  Ron wasn't even required to sign an NDA so why would other suspended account owners need to in order for WYN to "re-assess" their own points accounting?


----------



## Cropman

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I wouldn't sign an NDA unless I was being well compensated for Wyndham's total incompetence which caused me to lose money and/or the use of my account.


----------



## ecwinch

I dont' have a dog in this fight either, but I would not hesitate to sign an NDA if it would accelerate my acct getting unfrozen. What you are giving up is minor to the potential benefit.

And to answer Bella's question, the NDA serves two purposes. First it is a indicator on how cooperative the customer might be. Someone digging in on something as simple as an NDA is problem going to be a PIA to work with. Secondly it is standard to prevent the customer from sharing with someone similarly situated any discussion/negotiation that might occur.


----------



## BellaWyn

ecwinch said:


> I dont' have a dog in this fight either, but I would not hesitate to sign an NDA if it would accelerate my acct getting unfrozen. What you are giving up is minor to the potential benefit.
> 
> And to answer Bella's question, the NDA serves two purposes. First it is a indicator on how cooperative the customer might be. Someone digging on something as simple as an NDA is problem going to be a PIA to work with. Secondly it is standard to prevent the customer from sharing with someone similarly situated any discussion/negotiation that might occur.


Thanks for that clarification Eric.

Which I translate as, to my original point, that an NDA serves ONLY Wyn.  It's a one-sided agreement while Wyn "holds hostage" what you already own.  Note that, per his posturing of "cooperation" and his non-combative approach, Ron still somehow managed to not have to sign an NDA on the front end of his discussions.

So why would other suspended account owners need to sign one?  is what is being "given up" that minor?  If it is that insignificant, why is it so important to have an NDA in place at all?


----------



## ecwinch

Sure it is primarily for Wyn's benefit. But the only thing you are giving up is your right to blab about whatever they are discussing with you. How does that harm you? You are not giving up your right to discuss the situation with an attorney or the government authorities.


----------



## ronparise

Cropman said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I wouldn't sign an NDA unless I was being well compensated for Wyndham's total incompetence which caused me to lose money and/or the use of my account.





BellaWyn said:


> George, the NDA doesn't accomplish any of that for the suspended owners.   From what I have gleaned, it merely is CYA for Wyn.  Ron wasn't even required to sign an NDA so why would other suspended account owners need to in order for WYN to "re-assess" their own points accounting?





BellaWyn said:


> Conversely, why is NDA necessary in the first place?





am1 said:


> Not sure I would sign a NDA without knowing what the outcome/compensation was going to be.  It would have to be a helluva deal.





bogey21 said:


> It is easy for me to pontificate as I am not a Wyndham Owner and thus not involved in this mess.  But here goes anyway.  If I could enter into an agreement with Wyndham that would guarantee me 100% unfettered ability to use my account and the amount of points in my account following the agreement were reasonably close to what I think they should be, I would sign almost anything in a minute just to get all this behind me.
> 
> George



George is right

It's wyndhams sandbox. play by their rules or don't play at all


----------



## OutSkiing

I would sign an NDA as long as its not giving up rights to bring legal action. Usually in business it means something kind of confidential is about to be revealed to me.  In this case it may mean they don't want people comparing 'deals'.  If I am confident I could live with whatever deal I made then why not.  As for why Wyndham requests it now and not earlier, maybe they've matured their thinking. Lawyers tend to over think things.

Bob


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Thanks for that clarification Eric.
> 
> Which I translate as, to my original point, that an NDA serves ONLY Wyn.  It's a one-sided agreement while Wyn "holds hostage" what you already own.  Note that, per his posturing of "cooperation" and his non-combative approach, Ron still somehow managed to not have to sign an NDA on the front end of his discussions.
> 
> So why would other suspended account owners need to sign one?  is what is being "given up" that minor?  If it is that insignificant, why is it so important to have an NDA in place at all?



Perhaps Wyndham learned something dealing with a blabber mouth like me


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> Perhaps Wyndham learned something dealing with a blabber mouth like me


So, NDA is the post-Ron "Oops" result?


----------



## am1

All I want is for Wyndham to unlock my accounts.  Compensate me for points that expired, reservations I could not cancel, discounts/upgrades I was prevented from getting, not being able to book new reservations or shorten existing ones, having to pay $129 instead of $99 for guest confirmations and no one guest confirmation fee for a split reservation available, reservations that went unused because I could not add a guest name on it (various reasons), time for having to call in and wait for a callback as well as a few other damages that Wyndham has caused because of this.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> All I want is for Wyndham to unlock my accounts.  Compensate me for points that expired, reservations I could not cancel, discounts/upgrades I was prevented from getting, not being able to book new reservations or shorten existing ones, having to pay $129 instead of $99 for guest confirmations and no one guest confirmation fee for a split reservation available, reservations that went unused because I could not add a guest name on it (various reasons), time for having to call in and wait for a callback as well as a few other damages that Wyndham has caused because of this.




Good luck with that

Seriously, good luck


----------



## ecwinch

am1 said:


> All I want is for Wyndham to unlock my accounts.  Compensate me for points that expired, reservations I could not cancel, discounts/upgrades I was prevented from getting, not being able to book new reservations or shorten existing ones, having to pay $129 instead of $99 for guest confirmations and no one guest confirmation fee for a split reservation available, reservations that went unused because I could not add a guest name on it (various reasons), time for having to call in and wait for a callback as well as a few other damages that Wyndham has caused because of this.



I hope you have an attorney and the resources to pursue what will likely be a lengthy litigation process (based on how Wyndham litigates).


----------



## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> George is right
> 
> It's Wyndham's sandbox. play by their rules or don't play at all


Don't think it's quite that simplistic.  The "rules" seem to more fluid for some owners than others.  

And didn't most of the suspended account owners, with a few exceptions, think they WERE following the rules when they got suspended?  Sans the exception(s), has there been any indication or specific outline of what rules got broken, *by those owners,* to warrant the suspensions in the first place?

Understand the "my house my rules" concept and also that Wyn's stick is much MUCH bigger than any owner out there.  Still, what actually have most of the suspended owners done _*intentionally*_, to warrant being locked  "out of the house" for a now, ongoing, seven months? All fingers still point to Wyn being in error in this process.


----------



## ecwinch

Based on the reports here, clearly the ones that were willing to play the game are getting resolved faster.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> Based on the reports here, clearly the ones that were willing to play the game are getting resolved faster.



Keep in mind that only a fraction of impacted folks are posting. It would be a leap to assume the small subset is representative. 

FAIR NOTICE: I am not posting anything gleaned from conversations with Wyndham personnel. These are my personal observations and conclusions I've drawn based on external data.

With that being said, I believe there is a priority order that may be established based on several factors such as anticipated outcome, size of account, significance of apparent discrepancy, etc. The degree of cooperation of the impacted owner may be a factor, but it may be a minor one; for many, the degree of interaction has been minimal enough that Wyn really has no idea how cooperative or not certain impacted owners may be.


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> Don't think it's quite that simplistic.  The "rules" seem to more fluid for some owners than others.
> 
> And didn't most of the suspended account owners, with a few exceptions, think they WERE following the rules when they got suspended?  Sans the exception(s), has there been any indication or specific outline of what rules got broken, *by those owners,* to warrant the suspensions in the first place?
> 
> Understand the "my house my rules" concept and also that Wyn's stick is much MUCH bigger than any owner out there.  Still, what actually have most of the suspended owners done _*intentionally*_, to warrant being locked  "out of the house" for a now, ongoing, seven months? All fingers still point to Wyn being in error in this process.





Reminds me of the guy that stepped of the curb to cross the street and got run over by a bus.  His dying  words were "but I had the right of way"

He was right of course, I would say he was dead right


In my talks with Wyndham my goal was not to prove myself right, neither was it to win. All I wanted to get to the other side of the street alive and well

I'm not going to presume that my way is right for everyone but I gotta say, if I had chosen to fight I think I'd be as dead now as the guy run over by the bus and my dying words would have been "but I didn't do anything wrong"


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

RE : IT programming issues - Wyndham 

There is a TUG thread in exchanging - started Dec 20 2016 -  ( if you have not seen/read it )

RCI " new " format {merged} - a lot of the posts are about  IT programming changes that make RCI less useful .

Who owns RCI - Wyndham  !!


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> Reminds me of the guy that stepped of the curb to cross the street and got run over by a bus.  His dying  words were "but I had the right of way"
> 
> He was right of course, I would say he was dead right
> 
> 
> In my talks with Wyndham my goal was not to prove myself right, neither was it to win. All I wanted to get to the other side of the street alive and well
> 
> I'm not going to presume that my way is right for everyone but I gotta say, if I had chosen to fight I think I'd be as dead now as the guy run over by the bus and my dying words would have been "but I didn't do anything wrong"


[duplicate quote removed]


ronparise said:


> George is right
> 
> It's wyndhams sandbox. play by their rules or don't play at all



Impressive quote but I think I will keep my ownership rights derived from Fairfield contracts and I wish others who want to the same the best of luck.  By the way, congratulations on Wyndham giving you a new number member for your account and the new role you hope to achieve.


----------



## ronparise

Avislo said:


> Impressive quote but I think I will keep my ownership rights derived from Fairfield contracts and I wish others who want to the same the best of luck.  By the way, congratulations on Wyndham giving you a new number member for your account and the new role you hope to achieve.




Not my account . The account belongs to someone else who is paying me to help them get started with Wyndham (They have also paid me for my customer list)   Dont even pretend to understand what Im doing, much less comment on it


What you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with you... I wasnt advising you... Unless of course you are among the folks that had accounts suspended last August.. 

What I m trying to say to the folks that were and still are suspended that once I accepted the fact that Im playing in Wyndhams sandbox, and I either play by their rules or dont play at all, and once I understood what those rules were. We were able to get to the point where I can say "the parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences"

I am certain i was entitled to more because I had (as you put it) certain "ownership rights" but the fact is Wyndham disagreed as to exactly those rights were, and I believe they were quite willing to fight this thing in court if I pushed it. So I rolled over, and thats what I suggest others do

Regarding the "property rights" you think you have.  I owned deeds that date back to the Fairfield days, and I had deeds from the newest resorts and I understand, even if you dont,  that the  property rights we have, mean almost nothing We have the right to pay maintenance fees and taxes, and we have the right to use the specific properties we own according to whats  on  the deeds and the documents referenced in those deeds  The rights we have to membership in a club (to exchange our deeded use rights)  derive from the fact that the use rights for what we own have been assigned to the fairshare trust... and that trust is what Im calling "Wyndham's sandbox"  If Wyndham wants to toss you or your your properties out of the trust they can, and you will be out of the club. 

You are an observer in this thread. You shoud read and understand the previous,  nearly 70 pages,  before you presume to advise those of us in the middle of this mess. You are no different and no more helpful, than the rubber-necker looking at the accident Ive been involved in, and offering  the advice that I should have stayed home.  

Once again you have made up some baloney and posted it as fact simple to confuse


----------



## OutSkiing

am1 said:


> All I want is for Wyndham to unlock my accounts.  Compensate me for points that expired, reservations I could not cancel, discounts/upgrades I was prevented from getting, not being able to book new reservations or shorten existing ones, having to pay $129 instead of $99 for guest confirmations and no one guest confirmation fee for a split reservation available, reservations that went unused because I could not add a guest name on it (various reasons), time for having to call in and wait for a callback as well as a few other damages that Wyndham has caused because of this.


Bad things happen and you are clearly a victim here. Even though this train wreck was entirely Wyndham's fault, it may be worth giving up some of these losses if the opportunity presents itself rather than incur big legal fees and / or additional damages trying to be made completely whole. Or find some way to exit through the 'blast hole' which may be what others have done. Just speculating on that last point. I am just a small fry with Wyndham and am fortunately not affected. But I feel for you.

Bob


----------



## am1

OutSkiing said:


> Bad things happen and you are clearly a victim here. Even though this train wreck was entirely Wyndham's fault, it may be worth giving up some of these losses if the opportunity presents itself rather than incur big legal fees and / or additional damages trying to be made completely whole. Or find some way to exit through the 'blast hole' which may be what others have done. Just speculating on that last point. I am just a small fry with Wyndham and am fortunately not affected. But I feel for you.
> 
> Bob



Thanks.  I am interested in listening to what would be offered but am not just going to roll over.  I have too much invested and been damaged too much for that.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Thanks.  I am interested in listening to what would be offered but am not just going to roll over.  I have too much invested and been damaged too much for that.




Roll over or be rolled over is how I saw it. Your situation and your choices may be different


----------



## ecwinch

am1 said:


> I have too much invested and been damaged too much for that.


If you intend to fight it, I fear your investment has just begun.


----------



## BellaWyn

ecwinch said:


> If you intend to fight it, I fear your investment has just begun.


Whether he fights it or not, it cannot begin until Wyn actually starts having a conversation with him.  He's still in the one-sided conversation stonewall mode - Wyn being the side that is holding communication at bay.


----------



## vacationhopeful

am1 ...

I am not recommending ANY action for YOU ... just asking you to make sure, this is a reasoned path you are taking. And what possible outcomes there are for you & your family? And how much time and damage you are encountering (emotionally & long term financially) can you handle? And where will you be in 6 months or 18 months?

Personally, I feel this is worst than a death or divorce...particularly when in your eyes, this is due to NO FAULT or action you took. Most people I deal with in my 'real' job ... are ethical. Makes life easier and keeps things real as both parties try to respect the other's position or situation. 

Try to keep a level head. And best of luck. 

PS  ... I have been thru some really, really bad times, too.


----------



## am1

I can always embarrass Wyndham for the mistakes they made in my accounts that have caused me damages.  These are beyond believe but thankfully I have e-mails and everything noted.  

I do hope we can work something out as my family really has enjoyed their resorts.


----------



## wjappraise

am1 said:


> I can always embarrass Wyndham for the mistakes they made in my accounts that have caused me damages.  These are beyond believe but thankfully I have e-mails and everything noted.
> 
> I do hope we can work something out as my family really has enjoyed their resorts.



Am1.  
I implore you to take a more conciliatory tone if you truly wish to keep on enjoying the resorts and ownership, unless someone in your family is a Florida attorney versed in timeshare law.  This forum is likely a way that Wyndham can determine who is willing to negotiate and who they need to crush.  

The very fact they haven't given your account any user rights indicates they are viewing you as combative or unreasonable (not my words).  I wish you well. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

wjappraise said:


> Am1.
> I implore you to take a more conciliatory tone if you truly wish to keep on enjoying the resorts and ownership, unless someone in your family is a Florida attorney versed in timeshare law.  This forum is likely a way that Wyndham can determine who is willing to negotiate and who they need to crush.
> 
> The very fact they haven't given your account any user rights indicates they are viewing you as combative or unreasonable (not my words).  I wish you well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



+1


----------



## happyhopian

I would make a call to the general counsel's office and tell them that you are approaching one year. No one will talk with you, no one will work with you to rectify anything and they are putting you in a position where you have no option but to file a suit and file a complaint with the Attorney Generals office. Explain that this is NOT your preferred route but no one will talk with you. If they return your call, you have an opening to a resolution. If they don't they you need to make those calls because you have nothing to lose. They aren't going to punish you any more than they already have. Yes I know this isn't my money but what else can they do to you. Once you file something, you can stop paying with the blessing of the court until the action is resolved - which I agree will be a really long time in years 3-5 IMHO.

Try reaching Jorge De La Osa sr. VP and General Counsel for WVO. I'd go with anyone you get in that department, even his assistant. You have nothing to lose at this point. Unless the door has recently opened, whomever you've been dealing with is not going to deal with you. At this point I would move to someone who is.


----------



## ronparise

Good 
I don't take anyone on as a client. I wouldn't have you


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## bnoble

Enough with the vague ad hominem, Robert.


----------



## ronparise

I'm not sure what you mean by "Interesting"

And it's not so much as a place of employment. I'm not an employee.

But what's any of this have to do with the subject of this thread regarding suspended Wyndham accounts

The credential that's important here is that I was in fact suspended and have come out on the other side in one piece

What's yours to speak with such authority??


----------



## Braindead

This thread is in a free fall !!

PLEASE EVERYONE STOP REPLYING TO AVISLO

WYNDHAM CATEGORY IS IN FREE FALL AS WELL

However tempting it is we all have to stop replying. 

How would you like to be a newbie coming here for 1st time ?


----------



## ronparise

Avislo said:


> The Florida Real Estate site shows the following, it may be in need of updating.
> 
> Current, Active LOCATEHOMES.COM INC Employed By 02/23/2015 Real Estate Corporation 09/30/2018



Any commission income I've received from real estate sales in Florida have been reported on a 1099 not a W2 so from IRS's point of view; not an employee. The Real Estate Commission see it differently I guess. As an agent I do work under the supervision of a broker so I guess they consider her my "employer"  So if makes you happy, ok I'm an employee 

By the way my website says I will either sell your Wyndham timeshare for you or buy it myself.  The fact is I have never sold one for a client.  I have always purchased them myself. 


I'm not sure what point you want to make by posting the details of my business and the fact that I'm licensed but thanks. A little free publicity never hurts. You should know however that TUG dosent like using their forum for advertising

So I'm requesting that a moderator take down your posts that promote my business


----------



## Avislo

Your welcome.


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## dagger1

Avislo said:


> Your welcome.


----------



## Avislo

For people harmed by the suspension and all related issues that are associated with them, here is the chance to raise them directly with the Fairfield Trust.

*Introducing Your Brand-New Annual Owners Meeting*

 
We're happy to introduce your brand-new Annual Owners Meeting: CLUB WYNDHAM Live, a completely new and interactive Annual Owners Meeting. Mark your calendars for Wednesday, Aug. 2. Attend in person or virtually — the choice is yours.

We're also debuting a new venue: the Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts in downtown Orlando, Florida. As usual, transportation will be provided to the event from select locations.

Registration will open Tuesday, May 9. Stay tuned for more information on this year's exciting Annual Owners Meeting.


----------



## ronparise

Avislo said:


> For people harmed by the suspension and all related issues that are associated with them, here is the chance to raise them directly with the Fairfield Trust.
> 
> *Introducing Your Brand-New Annual Owners Meeting*
> 
> 
> We're happy to introduce your brand-new Annual Owners Meeting: CLUB WYNDHAM Live, a completely new and interactive Annual Owners Meeting. Mark your calendars for Wednesday, Aug. 2. Attend in person or virtually — the choice is yours.
> 
> We're also debuting a new venue: the Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts in downtown Orlando, Florida. As usual, transportation will be provided to the event from select locations.
> 
> Registration will open Tuesday, May 9. Stay tuned for more information on this year's exciting Annual Owners Meeting.




You should know that the Fairshare Trust is Club Wyndham Plus.. 
and this is how the suspension email began

"Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus," 

Its pretty clear that the Club already knows about the suspensions and who has been affected and how and why.  There is no need for an 'in person' confrontation, unless you think they will be embarrassed by making the fact of the suspensions public.  I dont think they will be embarrassed at all. I think that they will spin this as something the manager is doing to benefit the club.   (enforcing the "no commercial use"  and "no unfair advantage" rules. ie a good thing

You should also know that these meetings dont provide an opportunity to "raise issues" There is no "member input" agenda item.  There are question and answer sessions with a few Wyndham employees to anawer questions, but you wont see anyone with any authority in them

I believe that a public confrontation will  backfire

If an owner wants to talk to someone at WVO headquarters about their account, why not just ask for a meeting in the Orlando office to discuss a settlement.


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> You should know that the Fairshare Trust is Club Wyndham Plus..
> and this is how the suspension email began
> 
> "Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus,"
> 
> Its pretty clear that the Club already knows about the suspensions and who has been affected and how and why.  There is no need for an 'in person' confrontation, unless you think they will be embarrassed by making the fact of the suspensions public.  I dont think they will be embarrassed at all. I think that they will spin this as something the manager is doing to benefit the club.   (enforcing the "no commercial use"  and "no unfair advantage" rules. ie a good thing
> 
> You should also know that these meetings dont provide an opportunity to "raise issues" There is no "member input" agenda item.  There are question and answer sessions with a few Wyndham employees to anawer questions, but you wont see anyone with any authority in them
> 
> I believe that a public confrontation will  backfire
> 
> If an owner wants to talk to someone at WVO headquarters about their account, why not just ask for a meeting in the Orlando office to discuss a settlement.



Do not believe in public confrontations.  The main point is people do not have to go to Orlando, they can join in on-line.


----------



## raygo123

Avislo said:


> Do not believe in public confrontations.  The main point is people do not have to go to Orlando, they can join in on-line.


Yea, that's the ticket, social media is the best way to have your account resolved!

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Robert, 

What are you suggesting if not a public confrontation? You suggest that we attend the annual meeting to  raise our issues directly that sounds like a confrontation to me

We can't have it both ways.... we can't raise our issues at the meeting without a public confrontation


----------



## ecwinch

Avislo said:


> Do not believe in public confrontations.  The main point is people do not have to go to Orlando, they can join in on-line.


Pretty sure it will be like the WM annual meetings, that you will only be able to view the presentations that are given and not interact.


----------



## rickandcindy23

So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts.  And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.  

As I said, they have been saying it for years.


----------



## whitewater

rickandcindy23 said:


> So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts.  And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.
> 
> As I said, they have been saying it for years.




what do you know that confirms this?  We know its coming - interested in what additional information that confirms this is going into effect.


----------



## ronparise

rickandcindy23 said:


> So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts.  And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.
> 
> As I said, they have been saying it for years.



No they haven't been saying it for years, we have


----------



## Avislo

whitewater said:


> what do you know that confirms this?  We know its coming - interested in what additional information that confirms this is going into effect.



For the role out of the Website, the CEO Quarterly Update is the last that I have heard from the Chief Boss in Charge.  It talked in terms later this spring for the implementation date for the Website.  As for the Balance of Voyager that has not already been implemented and/or what sales has said by report or otherwise, is just that and nothing more at this point.


----------



## rickandcindy23

ronparise said:


> No they haven't been saying it for years, we have



Yep, the salespeople at Wyndham Bali Hai have been saying it for at least 8 years.  Those are the only salespeople with whom I have had any experience.  They love to say it.


----------



## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yep, the salespeople at Wyndham Bali Hai have been saying it for at least 8 years.  Those are the only salespeople with whom I have had any experience.  They love to say it.



So have the sales people at Royal Vista.  Also since eight years ago per my experience. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> No they haven't been saying it for years, we have


Ron I know for a fact I was told about voyager at both an annual meeting in 2014 or 15 (I can't remember which) and owner update at least three times - with the name voyager. They just keep pushing it forward. I thought I remembered you saying it was mentioned to you as well years back but I could be wrong.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron I know for a fact I was told about voyager at both an annual meeting in 2014 or 15 (I can't remember which) and owner update at least three times - with the name voyager. They just keep pushing it forward. I thought I remembered you saying it was mentioned to you as well years back but I could be wrong.



Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August

What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here. 

There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there  posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"

This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade 

I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me 

The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August
> 
> What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here.
> 
> There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there  posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"
> 
> This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade
> 
> I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me
> 
> The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals



A number of themes have been the subject of speculation over the years, some come true, most are speculation, some are driven by desires to undermine Wyndham and/or it's product lines/sales efforts to take or get their sales and/or rentals that may otherwise go to them, some themes designed get competitive advantage over other renters, mistaken beliefs on where things are going, etc.  Last heard, relatively recently from Corporate Wyndham, was the VIP benefits stay with the account (during the time frame where the new website was being rolled out).  Last heard from a semi-reliable attendee of a Owners Meeting of the Fairfield Trust was that a Waitlist was not part of the current Voyager roll-out.  The automatic upgrade by clicking a box during the reservation process is a interesting thought, but not sure how much real impact it would have on anyone other than mega-renters, other than clipping of the wings of some mega-renters and creating more opportunities for non-mega renters to get reservations at high demand resorts during high demand time frames.  Most mega-renters probably would not be affected at all.

The most significant effect would be to reduce traffic on the website by people constantly going on-line in search of a upgrade.


----------



## ronparise

A wait list or the auto upgrade check box  will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't  get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)

But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham

im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone

i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August
> 
> What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here.
> 
> There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there  posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"
> 
> This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade
> 
> I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me
> 
> The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals



Not that I consider the Wyndham programmers to be smart, but tell me how i am going to cancel my three nights to get two inside the window? IF I need eight nights or if I can only do friday and saturday (which splits check -ins). There are so many side effects to the waiting list concept with anything automatic. I just don't see how wyndham can implement it without a total revolution all the way down to the 100k point accounts. I'm not going to worry about it because I don't think they are going to make any significant changes in concept. They are making so much money right now and their business is NOT about making owners happy (seriously I know you are shocked considering how the generally treat owners) but in fact they make money on SALES. Also inventory is NOT a problem with ovation, as we have discussed. They are now reselling developer inventory 2x,3x times going forward.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> A wait list or the auto upgrade check box  will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't  get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)
> 
> But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham
> 
> im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone
> 
> i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes


Ron I know we are speculating here and we could be handicapping NCAAF instead but help me here. Your cancellation becomes robert's upgrade. So when you need to move your check in on a 7 night stay from Friday to Saturday four weeks out do you think wyndham will allow a situation where you can lose the entire reservation? Because of the structure of the weeks and contracts Wyndham does not allow a reservation to be 'edited'. The only way to change or edit ANY reservation is to cancel and ...wait for it...'rebook'. Outside of another speculation that we can now 'edit' reservations in this fancy  new system I'm interested in your take on the upside/downside to wyndham on the unintended consequences of all this 'beat out the trickersters."

Again - VIP upgrades are not killing inventory. Mega renters who are holding up 50% or more of inventory in high value locations is what kills inventory. I think most people here agree on this. The thought seems to be that killing the C/R/Upgrade will impact the mega's margins and slow/stop them wil free up inventory for more owners. Therefore Wyndham has to do this...that being said I do not think Wyndham has any intentions of killing off the renters as they are providing a heck of a free lead generation sales promotion business and whatever 'cost' might be associated is less than what it will cost for Wyndham to recruit. 

I agree with your statement above - we have all created this out of fear and conspiracy but everyone enjoys a good mystery so lets hope Wyndham does all of this with some fanfare and panash to give us our money's worth


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> A wait list or the auto upgrade check box  will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't  get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)
> 
> But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham
> 
> im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone
> 
> i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes



For people that chose to uncover loopholes in the new system and for people who's accounts are under their control, standby for another round of account suspensions.


----------



## comicbookman

Avislo said:


> For people that chose to uncover loopholes in the new system and for people who's accounts are under their control, standby for another round of account suspensions.



Why wouldn't my account be under my control?  And why would that result in suspension?  As for loopholes, I doubt WYndham will suspend the salespeople.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron I know we are speculating here and we could be handicapping NCAAF instead but help me here. Your cancellation becomes robert's upgrade. So when you need to move your check in on a 7 night stay from Friday to Saturday four weeks out do you think wyndham will allow a situation where you can lose the entire reservation? Because of the structure of the weeks and contracts Wyndham does not allow a reservation to be 'edited'. The only way to change or edit ANY reservation is to cancel and ...wait for it...'rebook'. Outside of another speculation that we can now 'edit' reservations in this fancy  new system I'm interested in your take on the upside/downside to wyndham on the unintended consequences of all this 'beat out the trickersters."
> 
> Again - VIP upgrades are not killing inventory. Mega renters who are holding up 50% or more of inventory in high value locations is what kills inventory. I think most people here agree on this. The thought seems to be that killing the C/R/Upgrade will impact the mega's margins and slow/stop them wil free up inventory for more owners. Therefore Wyndham has to do this...that being said I do not think Wyndham has any intentions of killing off the renters as they are providing a heck of a free lead generation sales promotion business and whatever 'cost' might be associated is less than what it will cost for Wyndham to recruit.
> 
> I agree with your statement above - we have all created this out of fear and conspiracy but everyone enjoys a good mystery so lets hope Wyndham does all of this with some fanfare and panash to give us our money's worth



regarding rebooking to "trim"  or "edit" a reservation; If something is done to prevent  cancelling and rebooking to get a discount on all your reservations, you wont be able to edit your way around the rules.   The rules are quite clear. Reservations in prime season must be 3, 4, or 7 days and check in or check out must be on Friday (or Fri Sat or Sunday, depending on the resort) 

I think whatever happens will be presented in a positive way.  They wont say "we have made changes to stop mega renting" (negative) . Rather they will say "we have introduced the following changes to enhance your ownership. We have created a waiting list, or we have made VIP upgrades automatic. You wont have to sit on the computer all day clicking away trying to find a reservation or upgrade. If one becomes available you will get it automatically" (positive)

If I was in charge I would change nothing except to follow the existing guidelines that limit VIP benefits to developer purchased points. This would leave things the same for VIPs that purchased all their points from Wyndham but for folks like me with just a few developer purchased points and a ton of resale points in my VIP account, life would change dramatically...


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> regarding rebooking to "trim"  or "edit" a reservation; If something is done to prevent  cancelling and rebooking to get a discount on all your reservations, you wont be able to edit your way around the rules.   The rules are quite clear. Reservations in prime season must be 3, 4, or 7 days and check in or check out must be on Friday (or Fri Sat or Sunday, depending on the resort)
> 
> I think whatever happens will be presented in a positive way.  They wont say "we have made changes to stop mega renting" (negative) . Rather they will say "we have introduced the following changes to enhance your ownership. We have created a waiting list, or we have made VIP upgrades automatic. You wont have to sit on the computer all day clicking away trying to find a reservation or upgrade. If one becomes available you will get it automatically" (positive)
> 
> If I was in charge I would change nothing except to follow the existing guidelines that limit VIP benefits to developer purchased points. This would leave things the same for VIPs that purchased all their points from Wyndham but for folks like me with just a few developer purchased points and a ton of resale points in my VIP account, life would change dramatically...



None of this impacts the big world (but it does drop the after market resale value). The greater concern is the continue talk that cancelations will go to service a waiting list. On dozens of occasions I have had to book a set reservation and had the agent tell me to call back at 60 days to cancel and change the dates, arrival or cancel a portion because of the 3/4/7 rule which I am very familiar with. This is not a violation of the rules, it is in fact how they want the system to operate so that people are not shredding a week 10 months out when others might use that time.

Without the distraction of the details, my only concern here is that any cancellation renders the unit gone to someone on a waiting list. If this is done to prevent cancel / rebook that will have serious secondary impacts on people who are not interested in a discount but rather needing to edit or revise arrivals or number of days. I think this could be solved MUCH easier by simply denying any discount on unit booked at same resort in which a cancellation happen within xx hours of cancellation. 

IF Wyndham thinks this is a problem. I don't think they care. I think they love the fact that VIP owners who have ponied up hundreds of thousands to get benefits are using them, and then brag about them to others and generate demand and interest by others who want that ability. Take that away and everyone will be satisfied with their points and will in fact just buy resale without VIP because the benefits won't be there.

I go back to what I said before. Other than the points being out of audit as a result of programming errors I don't see how Wyndham can justify anything. They are making money. They are generating lots of leads and new sales and there is no revolution going on. In fact the last two meetings i've been to have been MUCH less contentious than they were around 2011.


----------



## OutSkiing

ronparise said:


> ... he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"
> 
> This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade.


By making it optional, it at least gets over the most obvious problem that automatic upgrades could cause .. an upgrade could sometimes take you from a nice 1 br ocean view to a 2 br parking lot view. 

This approach would allow Wyndham to apply an 'algorithm' to choose who gets the canceled unit (like we really trust Wyndham with algorithms!) ..  They could not only pick the oldest reservations but could also pick upgrades that would bump the reservation the least (ie studio -> 1br or 1br -> 2br) and leave 'double / triple / quadruple' bumps as last resort if no shorter bumps were possible at the time. 

A wait list could be part of the algorithm of who gets the canceled units .. spreading some goodness around to more owners. Those would tend to be smaller units freeing up.

I think this would have a drastically negative effect on all the 'smaller' VIP owners who are used to being able to have more control and achieve triple bumps. 

Without a waiting list, wouldn't the bottom rung studios / 1 bedrooms freed up by upgrades become available for anyone to snatch up? VIP owners could still get those at the discount rate.

The more I think about it, seems like a lot of effort to just shift problems around and literally impact most everyone involved.

Better to just limit VIP upgrade / discount benefits to the developer purchased contracts rather than all the contracts in a VIP account.

Bob


----------



## ronparise

OutSkiing said:


> By making it optional, it at least gets over the most obvious problem that automatic upgrades could cause .. an upgrade could sometimes take you from a nice 1 br ocean view to a 2 br parking lot view.
> 
> This approach would allow Wyndham to apply an 'algorithm' to choose who gets the canceled unit (like we really trust Wyndham with algorithms!) ..  They could not only pick the oldest reservations but could also pick upgrades that would bump the reservation the least (ie studio -> 1br or 1br -> 2br) and leave 'double / triple / quadruple' bumps as last resort if no shorter bumps were possible at the time.
> 
> A wait list could be part of the algorithm of who gets the canceled units .. spreading some goodness around to more owners. Those would tend to be smaller units freeing up.
> 
> I think this would have a drastically negative effect on all the 'smaller' VIP owners who are used to being able to have more control and achieve triple bumps.
> 
> Without a waiting list, wouldn't the bottom rung studios / 1 bedrooms freed up by upgrades become available for anyone to snatch up? VIP owners could still get those at the discount rate.
> 
> The more I think about it, seems like a lot of effort to just shift problems around and literally impact most everyone involved.
> 
> Better to just limit VIP upgrade / discount benefits to the developer purchased contracts rather than all the contracts in a VIP account.
> 
> Bob



You are assuming that there will upgrades happening

My thought is that if folks know that their cancellation will be someone else's upgrade, they won't cancel.


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## paxsarah

ronparise said:


> You are assuming that there will upgrades happening
> 
> My thought is that if folks know that their cancellation will be someone else's upgrade, they won't cancel.



Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.


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## happyhopian

paxsarah said:


> Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.



But Contrar, I think the total number of bookings will go down, as will the number of rentals, as will the number of leads, potential new buyers, time share sales.... Just remember this Wyndham's profitable business is to sell time shares, not manage property <--- that is a cost center 

I still don't think this is all going to roll out when someone up the chain realizes what this will do to their true profits. IMHO


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## vacationhopeful

So, our collective wisdom is:
Cancellations to rebook so a VIP owner uses LESS points will not happen ... as MOST cancelled reservations could be someone else's VIP upgrade? Unless it is the lowest size unit in the building/resort?

And automatic upgrade could be done by some computer selection process ... like VIP level, date of booking reservation (earliest is first), upgrades giving to select member number (who brought POINTS last from Wyndham, who brought MOST points from Wyndham, who NEVER cancelled a direct brought contact from Wyndham, who is on a Discovery membership, Wyndham to snag upgrades for their rentals FIRST, etc).

The old system is now looking more fair ... the owner must personally and manually do the upgrade. LUCK is just that. Manual actions like the "cancel & rebook" do carry a risk for the original owner ... as most TUG members who do this sometimes, have learned. It I WANT or NEED a particular HIGH SEASON week, I don't play ... I could lose it and some savings are NOT worth the risk. (As for the topic of BOTS, that is a major security issue Wyndham must prevent .. IMHO).

BUT Wyndham still will most likely change over to an automated system ... the wait list idea, but will most likely have 'chits' to give more value to SOME users. Why some? Upgrading is a marketing function (and they DO pay for upgrades) and that will be PROGRAMMED to benefit who is buying .. like the "Discovery" program buyers. 

And I know very well, I will NOT work to get a points discount on a reservation I used ARP points to book ... as I will be the loser. It has become more likely I will lose.. but if I am wishy-washy on a reservation, I will gamble on getting a points discount.


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## vacationhopeful

happyhopian said:


> But Contrar, I think the total number of bookings will go down, as will the number of rentals, as will the number of leads, potential new buyers, time share sales.... Just remember this Wyndham's profitable business is to sell time shares, not manage property <--- that is a cost center
> 
> I still don't think this is all going to roll out when someone up the chain realizes what this will do to their true profits. IMHO



How is Wyndham converting (mega-renter) guests who are renting off the private market into buyers? These renters are experienced ... know it cost them less money to rent, it is WAY LESS fight to get into the resort. and less planning. No commitment of large sums of money or time. And they BRAG around the TIKI bars and in the pool ... just ask other guests the next time you are at a resort, like Bonnet Creek.


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## ronparise

paxsarah said:


> Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.



VIP owners that have  been operating with the expectation of 50% discounts on everything they do, must be asking themselves: what will I do if any of the things we have been talking about come to be; what if I can't get discounted reservations anymore?


The obvious answer would be to accept the change and be happy for the opportunity to pay a fair price for our vacation accommodations. But one could change the way they vacation and use their Wyndham points only for reservations made inside 60 days

For myself,  my wife and I won't be staying in a 3 bedroom at Reunion Christmas week, rather we will opt for a one bedroom at Bonnet Creek the week before Christmas and hope that this value season reservation will be available inside 60 days

As far as the advice I give wannabe mega renters. My advice will be to concentrate on the really high demand reservations where you can charge a big price and make a profit  without a discount. 

With a little luck all this planning won't be needed.  But here's another piece of advice.  Hope for the best but plan for the worst.


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## tschwa2

It also might leave those large units available longer to anyone with enough points to book rather than booked early by a VIP who is unwilling to pay the full price but grabs it along with a smaller unit to rebook for a discount and then cancel with the expectation of an upgrade.  If units remain unbooked because they are too expensive pointwise than they will still be taken either as an upgrade or a discount (but probably not both) by a VIP during the appropriate window.

For what its worth RCI has a checkbox for upgrades for platinum members (free) and non (paid if upgrade occurs) and the system only checks once a day (or so it seems to me) for the upgrade.  The rest of the time the unit would sit until booked by someone else or if you call and find a guide during business hours who could manually do the upgrade (most wouldn't have the foggiest clue).


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## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> It also might leave those large units available longer to anyone with enough points to book rather than booked early by a VIP who is unwilling to pay the full price but grabs it along with a smaller unit to rebook for a discount and then cancel with the expectation of an upgrade.  If units remain unbooked because they are too expensive pointwise than they will still be taken either as an upgrade or a discount (but probably not both) by a VIP during the appropriate window.
> 
> For what its worth RCI has a checkbox for upgrades for platinum members (free) and non (paid if upgrade occurs) and the system only checks once a day (or so it seems to me) for the upgrade.  The rest of the time the unit would sit until booked by someone else or if you call and find a guide during business hours who could manually do the upgrade (most wouldn't have the foggiest clue).



That would be something to see... the 3 bedrooms remaining available until 60 days out


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## tschwa2

ronparise said:


> That would be something to see... the 3 bedrooms remaining available until 60 days out


They might not last until 60 days out because there is a lot of time for members to decide if they are willing to pay full points value  On the Wyndham board you often see those who didn't credit pool and have points expiring that they don't want to deposit in RCI.  There may be enough of those types who would rather pay full points to use up those points for a large unit rather than converting to airfare or MF or RCI or not.  You might end up seeing the points managers booking up quadruple (or more) units in the hopes of cancelling and getting some upgrades.


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## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> They might not last until 60 days out because there is a lot of time for members to decide if they are willing to pay full points value  On the Wyndham board you often see those who didn't credit pool and have points expiring that they don't want to deposit in RCI.  There may be enough of those types who would rather pay full points to use up those points for a large unit rather than converting to airfare or MF or RCI or not.  You might end up seeing the points managers booking up quadruple (or more) units in the hopes of cancelling and getting some upgrades.



and if they dont last until 60 days there wont be any reserved at a discount, (if our worst fears are realized)

i think that there are enough owners (There are over 500000 of us after all) who expect to pay and are willing to pay full price.   A three bedroom at Bonnet Creek is 308000; under $2000 a week for most of us.. less than $300/night or put another way $100 per night per bedroom

I never understood why anyone would pay for a presidential unit but they are the only 4 bedrooms at Bonnet Creek  424000 points or $2500 a week $360 a night $90 per bedroom ...

Ask someone who rents there, what they get for a 3 or 4 bedroom... I think there is a market and I dont think there will be any left at 60 days


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> and if they dont last until 60 days there wont be any reserved at a discount, (if our worst fears are realized)
> 
> i think that there are enough owners (There are over 500000 of us after all) who expect to pay and are willing to pay full price.   A three bedroom at Bonnet Creek is 308000; under $2000 a week for most of us.. less than $300/night or put another way $100 per night per bedroom
> 
> I never understood why anyone would pay for a presidential unit but they are the only 4 bedrooms at Bonnet Creek  424000 points or $2500 a week $360 a night $90 per bedroom ...
> 
> Ask someone who rents there, what they get for a 3 or 4 bedroom... I think there is a market and I dont think there will be any left at 60 days



If an owner hopes to make even a small profit, the asking price for Bonnet Creek and other units will have to rise dramatically.  The prices you noted for a four bedroom Presidential will require $400-$500 per night to cover the cost including guest fees.  Redweek and other resources show units a LOT cheaper than that right now.  

So a "market correction" is likely.  Right now the expectation of many renters is to get a two bedroom unit for the cost of a hotel room. If cancel and rebook goes away so will that cost level.  

And the expectation of renters will mean that some dry times will be coming for owners who rent out units.  I am astounded when an owner lists a beautiful unit on TUG for a ridiculously low cost of $100 per night, that potential buyers have the gall to offer half that for the room.  


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## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> If an owner hopes to make even a small profit, the asking price for Bonnet Creek and other units will have to rise dramatically.  The prices you noted for a four bedroom Presidential will require $400-$500 per night to cover the cost including guest fees.


Bingo, with emphasis on the "dramatically".  Very rarely will there be 3 or 4 bedroom Presidentials offered for $100/night.

And that is why, if Wyndham ever does anything to curtail the cancel/rebook or cancel/rebook/upgrade scams, many rental operations will fold.

End result, no additional units, but more accessibility for owner families to reserve their vacation.  Something like what is happening now in WorldMark.


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## Bigrob

tschwa2 said:


> .  You might end up seeing the points managers booking up quadruple (or more) units in the hopes of cancelling and getting some upgrades.



I think this is quite likely... that even more of the units are gobbled up early by points managers so that they can then add themselves to the "waitlist", whether that waitlist is direct (for same unit type) or indirect (next unit down waiting for upgrade). Rather than seeing increased availability, it is possible the exact opposite will occur... at least until the discount window and possibly even until the cancellation window. I could see points managers "waiting out" the average owners until the average owners give up and remove themselves from the waitlist as they see it's too close to plan on the trip they want. Then and only then will the block of units get cancelled and fall... to the points managers' other accounts that are waiting with open arms to catch them.

Like physics, every action has an opposite reaction. Unlike physics, the reaction may not be an "equal" and opposite reaction.


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## ronparise

The last time that there was a big change in club Wyndham was just before I bought my first contract guest fees were introduced, and the owner to owner transfer of points was stopped  and loopholes that permitted easy and cheap platinum accounts were closed. Several renters went out of buseness and shortly thereafter so did the one points manager I knew of. 

So when I posted questions on the old Wyndham owners forum about renting, the  advice I got was don't even try,  it's to hard and profit margins too slim and compitition too great to make a go of it. There was no way to compete with big platinum ownership their discounts

Well some of us that didn't know any better jumped in and did just fine. we found other ways to control platinum accounts.and we found sources of cheap points.  And there were new ways to advertise and renting Wyndham points became pretty big,  small business


So Wyndham has introduced a 10  nightly limit rule and has made cancel and rebook an iffy thing If Wyndham does something to return vip discounts to their original purpose I think we are looking at another turning point. Some of us will quit but there will be others that adapt and still others that will jump in with new and better ideas. Something my mentor in this thing made me understand is that nothing lasts forever, you must have a plan B.

The guys that have a plan B will do just fine and new guys that don't know any better will see opportunity in the new system, whatever it is and figure out how to exploit it


And if Wyndham is successful in closing us all down. Worldmark still works


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## tschwa2

Bigrob said:


> I think this is quite likely... that even more of the units are gobbled up early by points managers so that they can then add themselves to the "waitlist", whether that waitlist is direct (for same unit type) or indirect (next unit down waiting for upgrade). Rather than seeing increased availability, it is possible the exact opposite will occur... at least until the discount window and possibly even until the cancellation window. I could see points managers "waiting out" the average owners until the average owners give up and remove themselves from the waitlist as they see it's too close to plan on the trip they want. Then and only then will the block of units get cancelled and fall... to the points managers' other accounts that are waiting with open arms to catch them.
> 
> Like physics, every action has an opposite reaction. Unlike physics, the reaction may not be an "equal" and opposite reaction.



While there may be debate about what is considered commercial activity for individual owners, there really is no doubt that the services of a point manager constitutes commercial activity.  I believe DRI has taken a firm stance not only on anything beyond very modest rental activity by owners but especially on prohibiting owners from using a commercial points managers up to and including letters of intent to suspend accounts, suspend the use of guest certificates, cancelling reservations.  I don't think DRI even tries to do this in a manner of suggesting rental disrupt owners chance to secure reservations.  They simply say that it is prohibited by the rules of the club and everyone knows or suspects that they intent is to protect DRI's own rental profits.


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## bnoble

ronparise said:


> The guys that have a plan B will do just fine and new guys that don't know any better will see opportunity in the new system, whatever it is and figure out how to exploit it


I don't think anyone expects (or even hopes) that renting goes away entirely. After all, any owner might find themselves needing to divest themselves of some extra points here or there, and if someone finds a way to make a bit of money within the spirit of the system, more power to them.

But. as Ron and others have pointed out, the present way in which inventory is managed allows VIP benefits to be used in ways the plan managers never anticipated. And, from the sounds of things, the plan managers didn't even know what was possible until they started trying to understand what was going on in these point-heavy accounts.


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## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> While there may be debate about what is considered commercial activity for individual owners, there really is no doubt that the services of a point manager constitutes commercial activity.  I believe DRI has taken a firm stance not only on anything beyond very modest rental activity by owners but especially on prohibiting owners from using a commercial points managers up to and including letters of intent to suspend accounts, suspend the use of guest certificates, cancelling reservations.  I don't think DRI even tries to do this in a manner of suggesting rental disrupt owners chance to secure reservations.  They simply say that it is prohibited by the rules of the club and everyone knows or suspects that they intent is to protect DRI's own rental profits.



no question DRI is taking a different approach than Wyndham... and so is Bluegreen


Interestingly, and surprisingly going after the points managers dosent seem to be a thing Wyndham is doing. I dont think Wyndham can interfere with the relationship of a real estate broker and their clients.   Wyndham is interested in it's owners. If an owner is renting to offset some or all of his maintenance fees, I think Wyndham will leave them alone. and if they are using a points manager to do the renting, I think they will be left alone too

Size of ownership matters, at least thats the way it seems to me. and most of the clients of the points managers are small owners just trying to cover their fees.


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## ronparise

bnoble said:


> I don't think anyone expects (or even hopes) that renting goes away entirely. After all, any owner might find themselves needing to divest themselves of some extra points here or there, and if someone finds a way to make a bit of money within the spirit of the system, more power to them.
> 
> But. as Ron and others have pointed out, the present way in which inventory is managed allows VIP benefits to be used in ways the plan managers never anticipated. And, from the sounds of things, the plan managers didn't even know what was possible until they started trying to understand what was going on in these point-heavy accounts.




They understand now, I assure you... My bet is that Voyager was ready to go months ago, but they had to add some features to address the things they learned after talking to some of us suspendees. If there is a wait list or anything to restrict cancel and rebook, you can probably thank me and the others

sorry


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> They understand now, I assure you... My bet is that Voyager was ready to go months ago, but they had to add some features to address the things they learned after talking to some of us suspendees. If there is a wait list or anything to restrict cancel and rebook, you can probably thank me and the others
> 
> sorry



The new website portion was not ready for prime time.


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## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> I don't think anyone expects (or even hopes) that renting goes away entirely. After all, any owner might find themselves needing to divest themselves of some extra points here or there, and if someone finds a way to make a bit of money within the spirit of the system, more power to them.
> 
> But. as Ron and others have pointed out, the present way in which inventory is managed allows VIP benefits to be used in ways the plan managers never anticipated. And, from the sounds of things, the plan managers didn't even know what was possible until they started trying to understand what was going on in these point-heavy accounts.



Well stated.  


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## chapjim

ronparise said:


> A wait list or the auto upgrade check box  will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't  get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)
> 
> But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham
> 
> im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone
> 
> i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes



The other thing that any or all of the above measures will do is decrease the value of Wyndham ownership, precisely the opposite of what you'd think Wyndham corporate would want.  There will be no reason to acquire more developer points to reach a VIP level.


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## wjappraise

chapjim said:


> The other thing that any or all of the above measures will do is decrease the value of Wyndham ownership, precisely the opposite of what you'd think Wyndham corporate would want.  There will be no reason to acquire more developer points to reach a VIP level.



That might be the reason change hasn't come yet.  While owners who rent would be impacted, sales would be impacted more so. 


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## Sandy VDH

I have had several discussions this Wyndham lately.  Since I had two issues, unrelated, that ended up created two cases.  One case I got a survey and call back on.  I had a lengthy conversation with them.  Some about my issue they called about, some about just how VCs take calls, and trying to get a supervisor and then Owner Care in order to get a resolution I think I am owed.  Some discussions were about their somewhat new edict to NOT be overly helpful to owners, but to follow explicitly all the rules of wyndham, as they will be audits by wyndham and they will be called to task if VC do not follow the rules.  So if this is now the case I expect we will be having to go to owner care a lot more if we have issues.  

Now honestly I have had NO issues with owner care, if you explain clearly, state your case, and explain what you want and why, I have always found them to usually be most accommodating and very timely.  The only time there were delays was last september when all the problems came up with Pooling points and points showing as regular to us, but somehow getting un-associated with contracts(because  of transaction activity) and were no longer eligible to be pooled. Owner care was slammed during that timeframe and that has been the only time they were not responsive on the day the call to owner care is made.

Now perhaps my experience with owner care is straight forward only because I track ALL my transactions and points inventory by each pool with Wyndham.  Everyday I have transactions I go back the next day and screen capture the point status window and ensure the balance is what I expect.  Since I have screen shots corresponding to everyday I have transactions it is pretty easy to get owner care to see what I am taking about and to agree with me and fix the problem.  So perhaps my interactions with owner care are NOT typical.  But with facts in hand owner care takes can be easy to deal with.

I have suggested to them that perhaps they need to have a bit of flexibility on their part with their treatment of owners.  Everyone gets a pass or two, on specific items, under specific circumstances, it is noted on the owners account and why it was overridden.  My example was the typo on the guest certificate.  It should NOT having to take an 60 min or longer call, to have to finally get through everyone to then get to Owner Care to override Wyndham Systems from taking out an additional GC for each typo change, especially IF the account has done a GC exception had NOT been done that in the last 12 months. 

I have suggested to Wyndham to they need to consider HOW they distinguish regular USE and thus allow for a little leeway in owner care, and how that is different from ABUSE.  So what is USE vs ABUSE.  Now USE is I call to correct an honest typo, I rarely make typos, but I made a honest mistake that I am trying to correct.  Now ABUSE is more like I call and say I have a typo on first name but really I am changing the name completely, tomorrow I call again and say I have a typo but I am replacing the last name completely, as a way to change the GC with having to use another GC.  In each case I am saying it is only a typo.  

If there is NO tracking of exceptions by account, then there is NO way to tell the difference or monitor the trend by Wyndham.  So what happens now is everyone is stuck in the strict Wyndham crackdown of All of the rules, and the attitude of live with it.  Which in my opinion is an over reaction to no knowing what their VCs are doing or why. Especially if they suspected that some VCs were being nice and accommodating and perhaps even some VCs that perhaps were working in league with some mega renters, which indeed I do believe they did suspect.  I do not know one way or another if this was ever proven to be true however.

If there is dated notes attached to the account when EXCEPTIONS are done, Wyndham can clearly see why the exception was made, who made it/approved it, and the date.  They can then identify if there are trends by owners.   Now here is the what wyndham can then control, what level of exceptions are allowed before the lockdown takes effect. 

There always needs to be a balance of allowing overrides, but with controls.  You need approval by supervisor (or Ower Care for some overrides) and exceptions are tracked, but it doesn't mean it should place undo burden on the owner in terms of time and frustration to fix.  

I guess Wyndham is taking the Insurance industry model of Claims processing.  Just deny every other claim, some people will call and fight it until they fix it, but others will try and give up or will just pay it because it is TOO much time and effort to fix.  Thus it is MORE money in the pocket.  

So I guess we will see, is Wyndham going to be the $$ is the only care, or is there some degree of Owner service still left inside Wyndham.  There can be a bit of a balance, it doesn't have to be all about one or the other.


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## ronparise

I for one have no problem with a crackdown on the rules Las long as I know what the rules are and as long as the Wyndham computers are programmed to enforce the rules

Regarding guest confirms I don't think it should make a difference what name is on the confirmation or how many times I change it. If I've paid the $100 who cares whether I change the name or not

But thats me


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## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> Regarding guest confirms I don't think it should make a difference what name is on the confirmation or how many times I change it. If I've paid the $100 who cares whether I change the name or not



Good point, I agree.  They have their GC$$.

But the Wyndham computers are programmed to charge another GC for ANY change, even if a GC is already issued.  So unless they change the programming, or the rules, they need to be able to make exceptions.


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## Avislo

Sandy VDH said:


> Good point, I agree.  They have their GC$$.
> 
> But the Wyndham computers are programmed to charge another GC for ANY change, even if a GC is already issued.  So unless they change the programming, or the rules, they need to be able to make exceptions.



When the system charges a Guest Certificate for another co-account owner, I have to call in to have it corrected.  The new system may have corrected this problem.


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## uscav8r

Avislo said:


> When the system charges a Guest Certificate for another co-account owner, I have to call in to have it corrected.  The new system may have corrected this problem.



You cannot change bookings between co-owners online, and I would never burn a GC only to call it in anyway. I recommend always calling in to Wyndham to change to a different co-owner as step #1. 


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## jumoe

Big Rob, I assume you have been silent as you did sign the NDA, but can you at least share if Wyndham did complete a points audit, and if so, did they accomplish this in the promised 48 hours?


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## Bigrob

As of this moment, I have not received results of the points audit nor signed the NDA. I have been told, however, that the points audit is complete.


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## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> and if they dont last until 60 days there wont be any reserved at a discount, (if our worst fears are realized)
> 
> i think that there are enough owners (There are over 500000 of us after all) who expect to pay and are willing to pay full price.   A three bedroom at Bonnet Creek is 308000; under $2000 a week for most of us.. less than $300/night or put another way $100 per night per bedroom
> 
> I never understood why anyone would pay for a presidential unit but they are the only 4 bedrooms at Bonnet Creek  424000 points or $2500 a week $360 a night $90 per bedroom ...
> 
> Ask someone who rents there, what they get for a 3 or 4 bedroom... I think there is a market and I dont think there will be any left at 60 days



"put another way $100 per night per bedroom" - that is the disney price at the moderate resorts - $99-145. At which point do you lose business to folks who would rather stay at a disney resort with the extra amenities and transportation options. BC has to be a discount to disney but more expensive that kissimmee.

Folk bout VIP for discounts. Removing the discount option will strip people of their rights IMHO but we can fight this out till the cows come home. I still don't think Wyndham will do it.

Here is my other reason why - who's going to pay for the waitlist? Are they going to do RCI where they hold your points? Does this mean that I cannot use those point for anything else why I wait in hopes that a unit might come available? No with the automatic upgrade, if the unit does upgrade, do I get my points back or do I get a free upgrade? The VIP purpose isn't so much the upgrade, it's the discounted points. I stick with my position. They will add the new website, tie contracts to reservations to address problems with ARP, limit contracts per account and offer free upgrades to people who are not VIP while leaving the current VIP benefits in place. Disagree as you might, but we are all guessing including the folks I have talked to at Wyndham OC and corporate who say a myriad of options have been presented and discussed with lots of options but no one is exactly sure how it will all be implemented or what the total impact will be. Everyone has said this though: 'there will be revisions'. I too am sure of that


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Ask someone who rents there, what they get for a 3 or 4 bedroom... I think there is a market and I dont think there will be any left at 60 days



According to the prices on Ebay, outside of Christmas and spring break these units are renting for less than $100 a room. IF the price goes up will the demand remain. it would be a macro change and I am not sure of the elastic nature in that pricing market with all the other options available. At point, using their discounts BC is competitive in pricing to other similar 'non-disney' options but you nor I know the answer to that. I bet we find out before the summer is over how much of this speculation comes true


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## happyhopian

CO skier said:


> Bingo, with emphasis on the "dramatically".  Very rarely will there be 3 or 4 bedroom Presidentials offered for $100/night.
> 
> And that is why, if Wyndham ever does anything to curtail the cancel/rebook or cancel/rebook/upgrade scams, many rental operations will fold.
> 
> End result, no additional units, but more accessibility for owner families to reserve their vacation.  Something like what is happening now in WorldMark.



The CO Skier, you are not watching ebay where there are dozens. I suggest you go there right now to look at the units renting for less than $100 per room/per night (comparing to hotel cost, not per night cost. The cost of a prime season, 7 night, 3 bedroom presi @$6/1k is $2,310 but I can't find one listed over $1,800 - but look at the completed auctions and the red week rental rates. The market will tell you what this is worth, not what Wyndham is setting the prices. If the prices from Wyndham (no discount) go up, then the question is will the buyer adjust or go elsewhere. Too many options for immediate price increase IMHO but that will make it less crowded when I go. However that will also reduce the number of leads and potential buyers for the sales teams. When that happens Wyndham will adjust. That I am willing to guarantee 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Bon...614404?hash=item1a29cf8084:g:ydQAAOSwjDZYmyMB

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Bon...178098?hash=item33c8fa4972:g:YNMAAOxy2YtRvOFw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...152220?hash=item25d4831c5c:g:NB4AAOSwA3dYfme0


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## happyhopian

As we all continue to debate this let us remember why Alfred Hitchcock rarely showed the murder scene...he knew the combined imaginations of the audience were much better than anything he could put on the screen. We have moved the accounts suspended discussion fully to a purely speculative thread on 'how bad' new rules are going to be simply based on one person's comment in another thread that a 'upgrade' box will be placed on the new website. How silly we will all feel if the website doesn't implement these issues.

I still take the position that any changes will be much less invasive on VIP benefits than has been proposed. I  believe that Wyndham is MUCH more interested in sales profits than they are owner satisfaction. And for many reasons sales will be hurt with less leads (rental guests) and fewer VIP benefits to the point of 'possible' automatic upgrades or wait list bookings while they hold your points (RCI method) for which there will be little incentive to upgrade and a slew of units placed on the resale market---again all speculation on my part but I'm a business guy who looks a profits, exactly where I think Wyndham is looking.

I'm glad were talking about all this but i think we should all remember that we are throwing darts in the dark, my respected friend Ron included. None of us 'know' what coming. Only speculation based on many different levels of knowledge and of course Robert/avisio keen mind reading skills


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## ronparise

chapjim said:


> The other thing that any or all of the above measures will do is decrease the value of Wyndham ownership, precisely the opposite of what you'd think Wyndham corporate would want.  There will be no reason to acquire more developer points to reach a VIP level.



Jim, there never was a good reason to buy a VIP ownership.  Thats why the salesman have to lie and cheat their way to a sale


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## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> "put another way $100 per night per bedroom" - that is the disney price at the moderate resorts - $99-145. At which point do you lose business to folks who would rather stay at a disney resort with the extra amenities and transportation options. BC has to be a discount to disney but more expensive that kissimmee.
> 
> Folk bout VIP for discounts. Removing the discount option will strip people of their rights IMHO but we can fight this out till the cows come home. I still don't think Wyndham will do it.
> 
> Here is my other reason why - who's going to pay for the waitlist? Are they going to do RCI where they hold your points? Does this mean that I cannot use those point for anything else why I wait in hopes that a unit might come available? No with the automatic upgrade, if the unit does upgrade, do I get my points back or do I get a free upgrade? The VIP purpose isn't so much the upgrade, it's the discounted points. I stick with my position. They will add the new website, tie contracts to reservations to address problems with ARP, limit contracts per account and offer free upgrades to people who are not VIP while leaving the current VIP benefits in place. Disagree as you might, but we are all guessing including the folks I have talked to at Wyndham OC and corporate who say a myriad of options have been presented and discussed with lots of options but no one is exactly sure how it will all be implemented or what the total impact will be. Everyone has said this though: 'there will be revisions'. I too am sure of that




Im sure about a couple of things. Wyndham dosent like that some of us are using the product for "commercial purposes" and they know that cancel/rebook/upgrade for VIP discounts is a  "manipulation of the program rules to gain an unfair advantage"  and that the discount is what makes commercial renting profitable. 

exactly what they might do  is not known so anything we  guess is just that;  a guess, but I think we all agree something is gonna happen. The question is; Will what they do to attack commercial renting mean the end of VIP discounts for everyone or just the commercial rental operations.


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## vacationhopeful

Novice guests "fall" into being buyers .... they are impressed with the condo size and options to cook verses takeout 3 meals a day... from the moment they walk into the sales office and at TOURED into a condo. 

And Wyndham sales prospects are put up in hotels (for multiple years now) and tour the resort property with sales staff .. showing them the pools and sample units. And the buyers SEE the happy families (and these MUST be owners to be staying there and are told ONLY owners can stay here) and the 'sample' condo apartments. Comments about YOUR family's next vacation could be staying HERE for about the same price as a motel room. And if they RENT from Extra Holidays ... and BUY points, they are comparing the rental cost to the MFs cost ... without figuring on 10 or more years of interest & principal on the loan. 

And why does Wyndham try to get the onsite guests' sales tours done within the first days of a 7 night stay owners' stay... to eat into the rescind window ... families coming home spend the first few days at home, getting caught up on those chores and chaos. Looking at paperwork, reviewing the fine print and analyzing the TRUE cost ... wow, the rescind window has closed. Or the onsite offices are generally CLOSED on WED, THU and FRI.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Bingo, with emphasis on the "dramatically".  Very rarely will there be 3 or 4 bedroom Presidentials offered for $100/night.
> 
> And that is why, if Wyndham ever does anything to curtail the cancel/rebook or cancel/rebook/upgrade scams, many rental operations will fold.
> 
> End result, no additional units, but more accessibility for owner families to reserve their vacation.  Something like what is happening now in WorldMark.



They will either fold or find reservations that are profitable without a discount... 

Your comparison with worldmark is a good one.. sure its easier for a regular worldmark owner to get one of those hard to get reservations, so thats a good thing.  but its just as easy (or difficult) for the megarenters to get one too. and there is still a lot of renting going on. Someone on Facebook pointed me to the Portland Craigslist  where there were (at the time of his post) nearly 100 ads for worldmark rentals

 The big difference between the systems (when used for a rental business) has always been the discounts.  It has always been more difficult to make money using worldmark as the basis for a rental business, compared to Wyndham.  But large scale commercial renting still happens in the worldmark system.  so heres my prediction. If Wyndham makes it impossible to make money with a Club Wyndham ownership. I see the megarenters migrating to Worldmark


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## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> According to the prices on Ebay, outside of Christmas and spring break these units are renting for less than $100 a room. IF the price goes up will the demand remain. it would be a macro change and I am not sure of the elastic nature in that pricing market with all the other options available. At point, using their discounts BC is competitive in pricing to other similar 'non-disney' options but you nor I know the answer to that. I bet we find out before the summer is over how much of this speculation comes true




I could never make Bonnet creek work, even with discounts. too much supply and too much competition.   but there are other time and places where the supply/demand ratios are such that there are profits to be had, even without the discount.


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## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> I could never make Bonnet creek work, even with discounts. too much supply and too much competition.   but there are other time and places where the supply/demand ratios are such that there are profits to be had, even without the discount.



Yes but your now you will be forced to burn through multiple GCs just to hold the 10 units you are allowed to hold at a single resort for a single period of time.  Now you will also have to pay a GC just to keep it active, then another when you find the renter and substitute the HOLDER guest for the REAL guest.  Each rental just went up $100 period.  So that drives prices as we pass that through to clients.  I'm sure you don't want to lose 990 a year, (10 X $99) from your current rental activity on a given week or weekend.


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## paxsarah

happyhopian said:


> "put another way $100 per night per bedroom" - that is the disney price at the moderate resorts - $99-145.



I don't know how long it's been since you stayed at a Disney moderate resort, but there are barely more than a few nights per year in value season where any moderate room can be had at rack rate below $200. If you can find a 25% discount, that's $150+ per night.


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## Bigrob

paxsarah said:


> I don't know how long it's been since you stayed at a Disney moderate resort, but there are barely more than a few nights per year in value season where any moderate room can be had at rack rate below $200. If you can find a 25% discount, that's $150+ per night.



The OP was quoting a "per bedroom" price. Although it isn't quite linear (a 1BR is not half the cost of a 2BR).


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## paxsarah

Bigrob said:


> The OP was quoting a "per bedroom" price. Although it isn't quite linear (a 1BR is not half the cost of a 2BR).



Moderates are single hotel rooms, so that is per bedroom. With tax, you can barely squeak in below $200 into any of the moderates without a discount, and it's higher for about 90% of the year.


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## happyhopian

paxsarah said:


> I don't know how long it's been since you stayed at a Disney moderate resort, but there are barely more than a few nights per year in value season where any moderate room can be had at rack rate below $200. If you can find a 25% discount, that's $150+ per night.



I don't mean to be argumentative but you called me out on not having my facts straight. Since I haven't checked in a couple of months I did a google. There are 12 comparable options on disney property in the range I state. 8 are Disney resorts. In addition to being a former Disney corporate suit, I do spend about 4 weeks a year here and 25% discounts are available from the right locations all year except christmas, thanksgiving, spring break and peak summer. Now no your not going to get the poly or the contemp but no one able or willing to spend that money is shopping ebay for a BC rental either. My point is what will BC / ebay renters find comparable and what the market options are. If I found this in a few minutes I am certain Wyndham has these reports at least weekly.

Also I didn't calculate tax because I also didn't factor in the cost of the guest certs in the rental fees. I also didn't factor in the $20 per day parking cost or the $5 each way - per person - cost on BC bus service. I still stand with my initial position: the competition is tight as it is in the current BC rental market pricing structure. 


$160 the Wyndham Grand right next door https://www.wyndhamhotels.com/wyndh...us=25&brand_code=WY&PriceFilter=0-2147483647&

$160 Hilton on Disney Property https://www.expedia.com/Orlando-Hotels-Hilton-Orlando-Buena-Vista-Palace-Disney-Springs-Area.h18591.Hotel-Information?chkin=4/20/2017&chkout=4/21/2017&rm1=a2&regionId=6034120&price=2&sort=recommended&hwrqCacheKey=c96636b5-95b7-4f0d-8ede-ef75277844c7HWRQ1492745395658&vip=false&c=a96f37a6-d24b-42ac-bc5a-876f5dba13b9&&exp_dp=169&exp_ts=1492745397229&exp_curr=USD&exp_pg=HSR

$100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-music-resort/rates-rooms/

$100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-movies-resort/rates-rooms/

$100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-sports-resort/rates-rooms/

$143 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/art-of-animation-resort/rates-rooms/

$117 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/pop-century-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/

$190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/caribbean-beach-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/

$190 on Disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/coronado-springs-resort/rates-rooms/

$190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/port-orleans-resort-french-quarter/rates-rooms/


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## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Im sure about a couple of things. Wyndham dosent like that some of us are using the product for "commercial purposes" and they know that cancel/rebook/upgrade for VIP discounts is a  "manipulation of the program rules to gain an unfair advantage"  and that the discount is what makes commercial renting profitable.
> 
> exactly what they might do  is not known so anything we  guess is just that;  a guess, but I think we all agree something is gonna happen. The question is; Will what they do to attack commercial renting mean the end of VIP discounts for everyone or just the commercial rental operations.



You are right. Some at Wyndham might not like it and it is a manipulation of the system, but it is delivering leads to their sales desks and if it stops so will those potential sales leads. T


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## paxsarah

happyhopian said:


> I don't mean to be argumentative but you called me out on not having my facts straight. Since I haven't checked in a couple of months I did a google. There are 12 comparable options on disney property in the range I state. 8 are Disney resorts. In addition to being a former Disney corporate suit, I do spend about 4 weeks a year here and 25% discounts are available from the right locations all year except christmas, thanksgiving, spring break and peak summer. Now no your not going to get the poly or the contemp but no one able or willing to spend that money is shopping ebay for a BC rental either. My point is what will BC / ebay renters find comparable and what the market options are. If I found this in a few minutes I am certain Wyndham has these reports at least weekly.
> 
> Also I didn't calculate tax because I also didn't factor in the cost of the guest certs in the rental fees. I also didn't factor in the $20 per day parking cost or the $5 each way - per person - cost on BC bus service. I still stand with my initial position: the competition is tight as it is in the current BC rental market pricing structure.
> 
> 
> $160 the Wyndham Grand right next door https://www.wyndhamhotels.com/wyndh...us=25&brand_code=WY&PriceFilter=0-2147483647&
> 
> $160 Hilton on Disney Property https://www.expedia.com/Orlando-Hotels-Hilton-Orlando-Buena-Vista-Palace-Disney-Springs-Area.h18591.Hotel-Information?chkin=4/20/2017&chkout=4/21/2017&rm1=a2&regionId=6034120&price=2&sort=recommended&hwrqCacheKey=c96636b5-95b7-4f0d-8ede-ef75277844c7HWRQ1492745395658&vip=false&c=a96f37a6-d24b-42ac-bc5a-876f5dba13b9&&exp_dp=169&exp_ts=1492745397229&exp_curr=USD&exp_pg=HSR
> 
> $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-music-resort/rates-rooms/
> 
> $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-movies-resort/rates-rooms/
> 
> $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-sports-resort/rates-rooms/
> 
> $143 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/art-of-animation-resort/rates-rooms/
> 
> $117 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/pop-century-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/
> 
> $190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/caribbean-beach-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/
> 
> $190 on Disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/coronado-springs-resort/rates-rooms/
> 
> $190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/port-orleans-resort-french-quarter/rates-rooms/



I was just talking about the moderates, because that's what you referenced: Caribbean Beach, Coronado Springs, and Port Orleans Riverside and French Quarter. As you can see, you'll barely get under $200 with those - and those baseline prices will be hard to find outside of a few value weeks in late Jan/Feb.  I wasn't talking about non-Disney resorts which don't get the full complement of benefits of being on property, nor about the value resorts - both because that's not what you said, and because the level of amenities really doesn't rise to the level of a rental at, say, Bonnet Creek. The competition may be tight, but the moderates do not go for $99-145 a night.


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## CO skier

happyhopian said:


> I  believe that Wyndham is MUCH more interested in sales profits than they are owner satisfaction.


http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...-club-wyndham-plus-program-guidelines.254676/

Owners will have different opinions of the program changes, but it seems generally agreed in the thread that these changes targeted some of the megarenter manipulations and abuses, and Wyndham is, in fact, interested more in owner satisfaction.


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## bnoble

paxsarah said:


> I wasn't talking about non-Disney resorts which don't get the full complement of benefits of being on property, nor about the value resorts - both because that's not what you said, and because the level of amenities really doesn't rise to the level of a rental at, say, Bonnet Creek.


For example, the Value resorts have double beds, not queen, and do not even have coffee makers in the room.


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## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...-club-wyndham-plus-program-guidelines.254676/
> 
> Owners will have different opinions of the program changes, but it seems generally agreed in the thread that these changes targeted some of the megarenter manipulations and abuses, and Wyndham is, in fact, interested more in owner satisfaction.



Wyndham is in business for one reason only, to make money. That is the purpose of businesses. Wyndham is not a charity being run for our benefit. We don't own them, we own a product they sell for profit. However is in Wyndham's best interests to throw us a bone once in awhile! Wyndham is interested in owner satisfaction for one simple reason. Happy owners talk up their ownership, unhappy owners go out of their way to tell everyone they meet that they are sorry they ever bought Wyndham and why. Unhappy owners aren't repeat buyers either.

Most of us pretty much agree that the mega renters will find ways to adapt, raise their prices, find loopholes, etc. Some like Ron they have eliminated and others like am1 they haven't finished with or even gotten around to dealing with yet. I wonder when the changes take place if Wyndham is still seeing the volume of renting from the biggest mega renters if those owners will find their accounts suspended pending review. Wyndham identifies mega renters by the number of guest certificates they purchase.


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## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> Yes but your now you will be forced to burn through multiple GCs just to hold the 10 units you are allowed to hold at a single resort for a single period of time.  Now you will also have to pay a GC just to keep it active, then another when you find the renter and substitute the HOLDER guest for the REAL guest.  Each rental just went up $100 period.  So that drives prices as we pass that through to clients.  I'm sure you don't want to lose 990 a year, (10 X $99) from your current rental activity on a given week or weekend.




Do I want to lose that $1000$    no, of course not.  But when I look at the numbers Ill do it...  A studio at Avenue Plaza is 81000 points In the past I could cancel and rebook and add a guest confirm; so about $350.  and I could rent those 4 nights for $1200   profit = $850.   Now I should still be able to get the discount (no one can upgrade into a studio) so my cost with the second guest confirm goes to $450 and profit down to $750... still not too bad..  and even if I dont get the discount my cost will be 81 x 6 = $500mf + 200gc = 700 and my profit= $500   It wont be what it was, but it still works.

The challenge will be to find other weekends or weeks that work as well.

Remenber too that we are not subject to the 10 nightly limit rule when doing ARP reservations .  so in the past I would limit myself to 10 because I was counting on getting the discount at 60 days, at a profit of $750 each x 10 = $7500  now I might make 20 (no discount) at a profit of $10000


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...-club-wyndham-plus-program-guidelines.254676/
> 
> Owners will have different opinions of the program changes, but it seems generally agreed in the thread that these changes targeted some of the megarenter manipulations and abuses, and Wyndham is, in fact, interested more in owner satisfaction.




I think you hit the nail on the head.. Wyndham isnt trying to end all rentals.  As you you say they are interested in owner satisfaction, If they can cut down on the complaints they win


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## Avislo

Are all of the suspended accounts back in operation now?


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## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.. Wyndham isnt trying to end all rentals.  As you you say they are interested in owner satisfaction, If they can cut down on the complaints they win


I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.

1. This is not going to impact rentals in the way folks expected.
A. Resale points remain VIP
B. No limits on ARP just immediate GC's
C. Discounts still available at 60 days
D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation. According to owner care rep in the past more than 50% of their booking are for 7 days. For me I will just start booking split reservations so that I can have a better chance and I'll continue to book 2 units, as I always have incase the system didn't return the unit. For renters this could get expensive.

II. Also if you are booking an arp reservation at 13 months on the day and you also book a 1 br, selecting automatic upgrade. Chances are very likely that when you cancel the 3, your 1 is going to upgrade IF - IF their system works as advertised. 

There are lots of things to be happy about here but killing the rental business did not happen here. I see lots of very easy adaptations. Will it cost more money YES. Did they stop it - NO. In the end Wyndham just found a way to make a lot more money and slow down what was a runaway train.


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## happyhopian

paxsarah said:


> I was just talking about the moderates, because that's what you referenced: Caribbean Beach, Coronado Springs, and Port Orleans Riverside and French Quarter. As you can see, you'll barely get under $200 with those - and those baseline prices will be hard to find outside of a few value weeks in late Jan/Feb.  I wasn't talking about non-Disney resorts which don't get the full complement of benefits of being on property, nor about the value resorts - both because that's not what you said, and because the level of amenities really doesn't rise to the level of a rental at, say, Bonnet Creek. The competition may be tight, but the moderates do not go for $99-145 a night.



I apologize, I didn't mean moderate in terms of disney Moderate and that was a very poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was a moderate resort - not high end, not motel 6 in kissimmee - something that would be comparable to BC (not a condo, but location/stature/amenities) Anything on disney property is going to be a comparable unit to MANY who might be shopping at BC (IMO of course). Even the exterior entry all star and such will be comparable because of the DISNEY amenities that come along for young families (not for everyone mind you). Also if I was shopping Wyndham and I could get a hotel room and the grand next door for with two beds at $150 a night that is very comparable. Disney springs, eh, maybe not. 

But also look at Saratoga on RCI. One bedrooms consistently rent for 100k points plus booking fee so about $800 ( I just looked and there are two available for the summer at 108). Booking a 

I think we help each other here by showing and sharing different points of view. I don't come here for an echo chamber of agreement. In those caases I generally just like a post. I think the changes impact the market in ways that others have not realized (ron and a couple of other being an exception as a very savy business man vs. a personal user). My point in all of this was how does the wholesale price increase effect Wydnham. Will the market (renters) pay more or will they choose other options. The market at disney today is VERY different than it was 15 years ago when BC started. There are literally dozens if not a hundred more options. IMO families shopping EBay for rentals are not looking for top quality - so lets count them out. Yes there are those who just love BC. Count them out. And for those looking for a multi-room layout - price will play less of a factor but there are still other competitive options (hilton/DVC). For those looking for a deal (ie not renting multiple rooms) there will be challenges. I think this is most of the people going to vacation to disney who choose to stay at BC according ONLY to the hundreds of people I have talked with over the years we have stayed here 3-5x a year with our kids. We have some folks that do a lot of renting at BC AM1 being a good subject. I am certain he knows exactly what his market pricing has to be on units and this is where my comments started from.

If you are a renter at BC you are in a tight market. BC doesn't have enough of a reputation in my opinion to re-set market values. YES for me (and you) I will always stay at BC, even if I'm not an owner. We love it there for dozens of reasons but hoping that the rents 'love' a resort is not the best way to build a successful business. You have to be price competitive. 

Remember where this started. A week a BC in a 3 should cost $2,000 with points @$6 and 1 GC but there are NONE on ebay even listed for over $1800 and most around $1,500. That is where I see the problems for renters, AND for wyndham who relies on them to put new customers in the sales line. We shall see but if I was a renter I would not be selling my business right now. I would be making small adjustments and looking forward to paying Wyndham some more fees on GCs.


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## paxsarah

happyhopian said:


> But also look at Saratoga on RCI. One bedrooms consistently rent for 100k points plus booking fee so about $800 ( I just looked and there are two available for the summer at 108). Booking a



This is actually what we've done for our last few Disney trips. In March for our 1BR at SSR it was 105k + $190 to Disney + $230 to RCI, which comes out ahead compared to 166k at BC for a 1BR + 6 days of parking. But after having stayed at BC and DVC, it's hard to go back to a single hotel room (especially a value resort with double beds) for anything longer than a couple of nights. I'm not even sure how much longer we're going to be able to stand only a 1BR as the kids get closer to teen age, so we'll probably be back at BC in 2BRs before long and skip the RCI 1BRs.

I think where we do agree is that the renters will probably figure out a way to make it work. If BC becomes unprofitable, they will figure out another resort/event/opportunity that works better for them, and what they may lose in terms of profit margins through these new changes, they will probably make up for in terms of volume. And all of the people who think that these changes somehow protect them against the big bad megarenters are going to find that reservations aren't suddenly wide open with availability for all.


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## chapjim

ronparise said:


> Jim, there never was a good reason to buy a VIP ownership.  Thats why the salesman have to lie and cheat their way to a sale


I agree but only if we are talking about someone who has zero points or a relatively small ownership.  For someone who found himself with say, 500K or more retail points, upgrading to VIP Platinum could make sense depending on what the owner had in mind.


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## chapjim

ronparise said:


> I could never make Bonnet creek work, even with discounts. too much supply and too much competition.   but there are other time and places where the supply/demand ratios are such that there are profits to be had, even without the discount.


I've done well with 4BR Presidential units during Spring Break.  With the new rules, I guess that's over.


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## uscav8r

happyhopian said:


> I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.
> 
> 1. This is not going to impact rentals in the way folks expected.
> A. Resale points remain VIP
> B. No limits on ARP just immediate GC's
> C. Discounts still available at 60 days
> D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
> I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation. According to owner care rep in the past more than 50% of their booking are for 7 days. For me I will just start booking split reservations so that I can have a better chance and I'll continue to book 2 units, as I always have incase the system didn't return the unit. For renters this could get expensive.
> 
> II. Also if you are booking an arp reservation at 13 months on the day and you also book a 1 br, selecting automatic upgrade. Chances are very likely that when you cancel the 3, your 1 is going to upgrade IF - IF their system works as advertised.
> 
> There are lots of things to be happy about here but killing the rental business did not happen here. I see lots of very easy adaptations. Will it cost more money YES. Did they stop it - NO. In the end Wyndham just found a way to make a lot more money and slow down what was a runaway train.



There is no guarantee you will get the 3BR. someone with a 2BR could be automatically upgraded to the 3, thus leaving you with the 2, with no possibility to upgrade further. 

There is also the possibility that you were not first in line for the upgrade, and would therefore be stuck with the 1BR and no 3BR at all. 

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## happyhopian

uscav8r said:


> There is no guarantee you will get the 3BR. someone with a 2BR could be automatically upgraded to the 3, thus leaving you with the 2, with no possibility to upgrade further.
> 
> There is also the possibility that you were not first in line for the upgrade, and would therefore be stuck with the 1BR and no 3BR at all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course there is no guarantee I'm not stupid, but there's no guarantee that when I cancel to do a re-book that it is going to come back to me either. The point is THERE ARE LOTS OF OPTIONS coming around as we all think this through and I will be testing them out


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## uscav8r

happyhopian said:


> Of course there is no guarantee I'm not stupid, but there's no guarantee that when I cancel to do a re-book that it is going to come back to me either. The point is THERE ARE LOTS OF OPTIONS coming around as we all think this through and I will be testing them out



Did not mean to insult anyone's intelligence. The only point to be made is that the risk has gone up for such strategies, but I concur that there is nothing in these changes that has outright prevented application of the old tricks. 


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## Bigrob

happyhopian said:


> I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.
> 
> 
> D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
> I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation.



I am not sure this is correct. The reservation system is being changed "under the hood" with the update and I don't think the reservation has to be a complete "match" in order to upgrade. This would lend itself to potential abuse (e.g., booking an 11 night reservation so only your own smaller 11-night reservation would upgrade into it.) No, I believe the unit when released will be subject to being used in whole or in part for any eligible upgrades.

And if that leads one to think that short reservations are better because they have a higher chance to upgrade, that may be correct but also results in more guest confirmations and risks that some portions of the stay upgrade and others don't.

No doubt there will still be ways to make things work. Just going to require new strategies.


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## Bigrob

Avislo said:


> Are all of the suspended accounts back in operation now?



No. If you read several of his posts you'll see am1 is still suspended. There may be others as well who are not posting.


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## wjappraise

Bigrob said:


> No. If you read several of his posts you'll see am1 is still suspended. There may be others as well who are not posting.



And while others of us are "thawed" and allowed to make reservations and cancellations, we cannot do credit pooling, selling of contracts nor buying new contracts, among other things. So it is a mess.  And the length of time involved - 8 months - gives me no confidence at all in Wyndham's ability to IT its holdings. 


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## wjappraise

wjappraise said:


> And while others of us are "thawed" and allowed to make reservations and cancellations, we cannot do credit pooling, selling of contracts nor buying new contracts, among other things. So it is a mess.  And the length of time involved - 8 months - gives me no confidence at all in Wyndham's ability to account for its IT changes or its holdings.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> Novice guests "fall" into being buyers .... they are impressed with the condo size and options to cook verses takeout 3 meals a day... from the moment they walk into the sales office and at TOURED into a condo.
> 
> And Wyndham sales prospects are put up in hotels (for multiple years now) and tour the resort property with sales staff .. showing them the pools and sample units. And the buyers SEE the happy families (and these MUST be owners to be staying there and are told ONLY owners can stay here) and the 'sample' condo apartments. Comments about YOUR family's next vacation could be staying HERE for about the same price as a motel room. And if they RENT from Extra Holidays ... and BUY points, they are comparing the rental cost to the MFs cost ... without figuring on 10 or more years of interest & principal on the loan.
> 
> And why does Wyndham try to get the onsite guests' sales tours done within the first days of a 7 night stay owners' stay... to eat into the rescind window ... families coming home spend the first few days at home, getting caught up on those chores and chaos. Looking at paperwork, reviewing the fine print and analyzing the TRUE cost ... wow, the rescind window has closed. Or the onsite offices are generally CLOSED on WED, THU and FRI.



Just had this happen with a family I have known for ten years.  They have had me line up Spring Break vacations every year and we have joined them three of the years, the others we have stayed at other resorts.  They love Royal Vista, Bonnet Creek, Palm Aire, and Santa Barbara.  Several times they have taken the "tour" despite my telling them they did not need to do so.  The husband is intrigued by the numbers side of my ownership and is also intrigued how I have been able to get him such a nice room for such a modest price.  He has stated numerous times he wants to build an ownership like I have.  I have tried to reason with him that the costs associated with building a Platinum ownership simply do not make financial sense.  I have also "opened my books" to him and showed him how if he buys a regular or even Silver VIP ownership, he will be paying more for the room than he reimburses me, even though he would not need a guest fee.  So. . . he just bought a 231,000 point contract that has bonus points that will give him VIP for two years.  He knows it will cost him more than what I can get the rooms for, but wants his own membership.  

And, I think that illustrates why Wyndham doesn't really hate the fact that we rent out some units to family members and friends (or even strangers if they buy).  They represent potential buyers.


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## ronparise

except that if you show him the resale market and he is gonna rescind, and buy on eBay don't you think?


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> except that if you show him the resale markethes gonna rescind, and but in eBay don't you think?



Ron - I have shown him all of that information, he is not interested in rescinding.  He feels like he got the deal from Wyndham he wants. . . . which really shows me that Wyndham does want my family and friends and renters to stay at their resorts.  I had not anticipated this dynamic, but it is apparent my friend feels a need to "own" rather than "rent" his timeshare product.  And that pride of ownership is likely what the sales staff found in their analysis of him.


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## happyhopian

Bigrob said:


> I am not sure this is correct. The reservation system is being changed "under the hood" with the update and I don't think the reservation has to be a complete "match" in order to upgrade. This would lend itself to potential abuse (e.g., booking an 11 night reservation so only your own smaller 11-night reservation would upgrade into it.) No, I believe the unit when released will be subject to being used in whole or in part for any eligible upgrades.
> 
> And if that leads one to think that short reservations are better because they have a higher chance to upgrade, that may be correct but also results in more guest confirmations and risks that some portions of the stay upgrade and others don't.
> 
> No doubt there will still be ways to make things work. Just going to require new strategies.



OC I spoke with about my concerns over the points not going back to the correct years from credit pool also answered some questions for me about the new system and told me that any upgrade would have to be an exact match for the exact reason you just stated. A 7 night stay would not get an upgrade on the middle 3 nights due to a cancellation. Now if you strung 3x3 nights like we do a lot (or a 4x3) then one segment certainly could get upgraded and the other would not. I asked about this resulting in room changes and problems and she said that the system wouldn't recognize multiple reservations as a 'single stay' for upgrade purposes. So that is what led me to think that the best strategy would be the smaller segments. I am basing this on what I was told by Wyndham OC and not my speculation - they of course could be wrong too.


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## Joe33426

wjappraise said:


> And, I think that illustrates why Wyndham doesn't really hate the fact that we rent out some units to family members and friends (or even strangers if they buy).  They represent potential buyers.



I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham.  When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero.  But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero. 

Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs  for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....


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## CO skier

Joe33426 said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham.  When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero.  But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero.
> 
> Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs  for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....


Friends don't let friends experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham.


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## ronparise

Joe33426 said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham.  When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero.  But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero.
> 
> Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs  for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....




I know Voyager and the suspensions are two different things. Voyager has been in the works for years and the suspensions happened when Wyndham  saw something in a few accounts that didn't look right and they had to figure out what it was and what to do about it

 Neither the suspensions nor voyager was directed at renting even though that's what it looks like to us mega renters.

Based on what I learned working with Wyndham leading me to say "the parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences" and based on what I know about changes that Wyndham has already made to Worldmark; I believe that wyndhams goal is to level the playing field. They want to administer the club so that no one group has any advantage over another when making reservations

So renting is not the issue unfair advantage is. Because the almost all the mega renters have looked for and found ways to tilt the playing field in their favor it seems that renting is the target. But there are lots of regular VIPs that don't rent that use techniques  like cancel and re book too

I don't see this as something done to attack renting or mega renting that hurts other owners as collateral damage rather I have come to believe that this is something that is being done to make the club better and does collateral damage to the mega renters

As you point out renting can continue just as it did after the 2009 changes

I have no doubt that some clever owners will find loopholes and exploit them and we will likely see a while new crop of owners trying to figure out how to make a living with Wyndham timeshares, and if they do it by taking unfair advantage of other owners, Wyndham will step in again, like they did in 2009 and in 2017


So Joe. that's a long way of saying I agree. Wyndham probably does like renting it makes it possible for some owners to offset some of their fees and brings sales a lot of new prospects, what's not to like?  not to mention that some of the loudest complaints "I can never get a decent reservation because the megarenters have scooped up all the good stuff" will end


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> some of the loudest complaints "I can never get a decent reservation because the megarenters have scooped up all the good stuff" will end



Ron - you must be into the tequila sunrises early today if you truly think owners will stop complaining about someone else (mega renters, Extra Holidays, the boogie man, Ron Parise, etc.) scooping up all the good stuff.


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## ronparise

Perhaps the complaining won't stop but Wyndham will have an answer for them


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## paxsarah

happyhopian said:


> OC I spoke with about my concerns over the points not going back to the correct years from credit pool also answered some questions for me about the new system and told me that any upgrade would have to be an exact match for the exact reason you just stated. A 7 night stay would not get an upgrade on the middle 3 nights due to a cancellation. Now if you strung 3x3 nights like we do a lot (or a 4x3) then one segment certainly could get upgraded and the other would not. I asked about this resulting in room changes and problems and she said that the system wouldn't recognize multiple reservations as a 'single stay' for upgrade purposes. So that is what led me to think that the best strategy would be the smaller segments. I am basing this on what I was told by Wyndham OC and not my speculation - they of course could be wrong too.



But the way I read Bigrob's post was the opposite. What if you had a 3-night reservation and someone canceled a 7-night that encompassed your dates? Won't that 3-night reservation upgrade (assuming you're next in line)? Or would that 7-night unit require a 7-night stay to upgrade into it? If the latter, that's where the 11-night example came from (and could lead to some interesting shenanigans trying to force an upgrade path, I would think). But it sounds like the new system may allow the former.


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## Joe33426

CO skier said:


> Friends don't let friends experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham.



I totally agree, but when they dangle the carrot of $100 or whatever, even the strong sometimes given into their ploys.  Plenty of threads here on TUG where even seasoned resale buyers still attend...  We've sworn off presentations and wish we could get on the list to stop annoying.  That's the part of Wyndham that I hate.  Otherwise, I love the resorts and the product.


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## Jan M.

Joe33426 said:


> I totally agree, but when they dangle the carrot of $100 or whatever, even the strong sometimes given into their ploys.  Plenty of threads here on TUG where even seasoned resale buyers still attend...  We've sworn off presentations and wish we could get on the list to stop annoying.  That's the part of Wyndham that I hate.  Otherwise, I love the resorts and the product.



I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.

The sad part is that it has been true most of the time. Most of our stays in the past couple of years have been when my husband was working in an area or with our preschool aged granddaughter who keeps us very, very busy. I'm so looking forward to my husband retiring later this year but will be sad when the granddaughter starts school this Fall and we don't have her to "play with" us. We've got two more years until the next granddaughter is old enough to have her "vacations" with Grandma and Papa.

We are staying in Orlando with her this week and our granddaughter asked about some big hotel that we drove by. She will be six right before school starts and has never stayed in a hotel room thanks to us having the timeshares. She was appalled that people spend their vacations in a bedroom! I tried explaining that sometimes it is a big bedroom and has a sofa or a small refrigerator and microwave but she still insisted "Grandma, it's a bedroom!"


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## 55plus

Jan M. said:


> I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.



I feel sorry for the parking pass employees because they are performance based. They have goals/quotas they have to meet. But nevertheless, you paid a lot of money and pay maintenance fees monthly so they should accept your request not to be harassed and pressured into something you don't want to do. . .


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## dagger1

Jan M. said:


> I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.
> 
> The sad part is that it has been true most of the time. Most of our stays in the past couple of years have been when my husband was working in an area or with our preschool aged granddaughter who keeps us very, very busy. I'm so looking forward to my husband retiring later this year but will be sad when the granddaughter starts school this Fall and we don't have her to "play with" us. We've got two more years until the next granddaughter is old enough to have her "vacations" with Grandma and Papa.
> 
> We are staying in Orlando with her this week and our granddaughter asked about some big hotel that we drove by. She will be six right before school starts and has never stayed in a hotel room thanks to us having the timeshares. She was appalled that people spend their vacations in a bedroom! I tried explaining that sometimes it is a big bedroom and has a sofa or a small refrigerator and microwave but she still insisted "Grandma, it's a bedroom!"


We were spending as much or more to stay in "bedrooms" until we discovered timeshares...


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> But the way I read Bigrob's post was the opposite. What if you had a 3-night reservation and someone canceled a 7-night that encompassed your dates? Won't that 3-night reservation upgrade (assuming you're next in line)? Or would that 7-night unit require a 7-night stay to upgrade into it? If the latter, that's where the 11-night example came from (and could lead to some interesting shenanigans trying to force an upgrade path, I would think). But it sounds like the new system may allow the former.


It seems that a computer algorithms would determine that.  How ever it is set up it will, in my opinion, first to exact matches 7 for 7 first, it is over 50% of the searches, according to a previous post.  Next perfect match, (attempted humor) monies spent on ownership.

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## Braindead

Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting. 
1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs. 
2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
3. Still try to create your upgrade?
4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts? 
5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?


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## wjappraise

Braindead said:


> Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting.
> 1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs.
> 2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
> 3. Still try to create your upgrade?
> 4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts?
> 5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?



I have not done a lot of "renting" but I do use all of my GCs every year by March and purchase a bunch through the year.  My guests are almost entirely made up of family members and friends, and I use TUG or Redweek to advertise a handful a rooms each year, mostly to move reservations that my known guests can no longer use.  So, here is my attempt to answer your questions:

1. I own where I want to stay, or where my guests want to stay.  Bonnet Creek, Glacier Canyon, Royal Vista, Panama City.  Most of those are NOT low MFs.  I may look to rid myself of the Royal Vista contracts, due to the Front Desk at Royal Vista no longer honoring the "do not move" label placed on rooms.  I used my ARP and reserved 13 months out so as to hold the ocean front rooms I love.  It does not make sense for me to pay the premium to have RV contracts when the value is to get specific rooms, but the manager gives those rooms away and places me or my guests in rooms overlooking the street.  I spoke with him directly and he feels that it is his right to determine who gets those rooms, not an owner, and not the Wyndham VCs. 
2. Yes, but not counting on the upgrades.  And will likely get rid of some of my contracts.  If Royal Vista can get away with ignoring ARP "do not move" stipulation, won't other resorts follow their lead and change my ARP units?
3. Too soon to tell.  Perhaps the business model will change to making reservations at 60 days, getting the best room available at that time.
4.  It seems that was for using Credit Pooling to strip and use all of the points from the contract for the next two to three years, then sell the stripped contracts to whomever was buying, including Wyndham.  I did not do that, but I did sell some contracts that I no longer wanted, mostly due to how I felt when I visited the resorts.  I know a lot of people love Ocean Walk, but when I stayed there I did not like the attitude of the staff.  I lived in Brooklyn for 7 years, and it was like visiting NYC again with no one really interested in customer service.  It is hard to believe that only 60 miles separates Ocean Walk from Bonnet Creek, where the staff has a fantastic attitude and goes out of their way to make the guests comfortable.  So, I sold all my Ocean Walk contracts.  Love the beach, hate the attitude.
5. Having to place GCs on rooms 13 or 14 months prior to check in, even if I used ARP.  My biggest trip each year is a reunion at Bonnet Creek over Thanksgiving.  I use all of Presidential Reserve points, and all of my ARP for Bonnet Creek regular contracts to get the rooms we need.  The ten unit limit placed a large difficulty for me as I basically purchased more and more over the years to get this event.  Wyndham, and Fairfield before the name change, advertised the lure of having family reunions as a reason to buy more and more points, and I bought in.  So, I paid retail for a lot of contracts, and then Wyndham pulled the rug out from under me.  So, now I have to use ARP to reserve the rooms (I was not able to do so for 2017 Thanksgiving due to the Great Suspension of 2016, which irritates me beyond belief, so half of my reunion party will be staying at Reunion).  Now this wrinkle. 

It appears that Wyndham corporate simply does not want me to enjoy owning what they willing sold to me.  Maybe they should buy me out.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting.
> 1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs.
> 2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
> 3. Still try to create your upgrade?
> 4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts?
> 5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?



1) Im not going to own directly.. Im going to help other owners manage what they own.. I dont see any need to change where they own...Points are points  and the few dollars they might save on fees  wont come close to making up for the big bucks lost by losing the cancel/rebook/upgrade thing

2) Ive always recommended specialization to wanna be renters so Ill be recommending that to the folks I work with. So the guy I sold my madi gras list to will be looking for La belleMaison and CWA contracts

3) I might advise checking  the check box for upgrades but I wouldnt count on getting one  

4)regarding buying and selling... I did a whole lot more buying than selling but I only  when I could see a profit.  

5) The biggest change for me is the end of the credit pool..


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## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> I have not done a lot of "renting" but I do use all of my GCs every year by March and purchase a bunch through the year.  My guests are almost entirely made up of family members and friends, and I use TUG or Redweek to advertise a handful a rooms each year, mostly to move reservations that my known guests can no longer use.  So, here is my attempt to answer your questions:
> 
> 1. I own where I want to stay, or where my guests want to stay.  Bonnet Creek, Glacier Canyon, Royal Vista, Panama City.  Most of those are NOT low MFs.  I may look to rid myself of the Royal Vista contracts, due to the Front Desk at Royal Vista no longer honoring the "do not move" label placed on rooms.  I used my ARP and reserved 13 months out so as to hold the ocean front rooms I love.  It does not make sense for me to pay the premium to have RV contracts when the value is to get specific rooms, but the manager gives those rooms away and places me or my guests in rooms overlooking the street.  I spoke with him directly and he feels that it is his right to determine who gets those rooms, not an owner, and not the Wyndham VCs.
> 2. Yes, but not counting on the upgrades.  And will likely get rid of some of my contracts.  If Royal Vista can get away with ignoring ARP "do not move" stipulation, won't other resorts follow their lead and change my ARP units?
> 3. Too soon to tell.  Perhaps the business model will change to making reservations at 60 days, getting the best room available at that time.
> 4.  It seems that was for using Credit Pooling to strip and use all of the points from the contract for the next two to three years, then sell the stripped contracts to whomever was buying, including Wyndham.  I did not do that, but I did sell some contracts that I no longer wanted, mostly due to how I felt when I visited the resorts.  I know a lot of people love Ocean Walk, but when I stayed there I did not like the attitude of the staff.  I lived in Brooklyn for 7 years, and it was like visiting NYC again with no one really interested in customer service.  It is hard to believe that only 60 miles separates Ocean Walk from Bonnet Creek, where the staff has a fantastic attitude and goes out of their way to make the guests comfortable.  So, I sold all my Ocean Walk contracts.  Love the beach, hate the attitude.
> 5. Having to place GCs on rooms 13 or 14 months prior to check in, even if I used ARP.  My biggest trip each year is a reunion at Bonnet Creek over Thanksgiving.  I use all of Presidential Reserve points, and all of my ARP for Bonnet Creek regular contracts to get the rooms we need.  The ten unit limit placed a large difficulty for me as I basically purchased more and more over the years to get this event.  Wyndham, and Fairfield before the name change, advertised the lure of having family reunions as a reason to buy more and more points, and I bought in.  So, I paid retail for a lot of contracts, and then Wyndham pulled the rug out from under me.  So, now I have to use ARP to reserve the rooms (I was not able to do so for 2017 Thanksgiving due to the Great Suspension of 2016, which irritates me beyond belief, so half of my reunion party will be staying at Reunion).  Now this wrinkle.
> 
> It appears that Wyndham corporate simply does not want me to enjoy owning what they willing sold to me.  Maybe they should buy me out.



Your reservation was for a specific unit number that was an ocean front unit at Royal Vista and a VC put do not move on it too but the resort put you, not a guest, but you as an owner and not just any owner but a platinum/presidential reserve owner, in a non ocean front unit? I hope that you at least contacted owner care and got your points back. Resort managers can be replaced and sometimes are when they get caught pulling b.s. like this and owners complain. Sometimes some of them need reminded that they are not gods in their own little kingdoms.

In the future if that ever happens to you, or any of you reading this post, start a thread here on TUG asking other owners to call owner care voicing their concerns about that resort and the resort manager. When owner care starts getting multiple calls about the same thing they take it seriously in my experience.


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## vacationhopeful

This is happening MORE and MORE ... as the "universal agent" is the former hangtag staff ... who got paid a bonus for obtaining HIGH ratio for guest attendance at sales presentation.

So the NEW bribe is 'agree to attend a sales presentation and get a better unit'. I reported that last time I stayed at Sea Gardens front desk giving me a BETTER unit .. one in the Ocean Palms building ... not the Cabanas 1bdr with all the pool noise.

I bet the guest for the OP unit was very unhappy ... or they did NOT know any better.

Seems I had to go home early .... else I would have missed the flight I booked home.


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## wjappraise

Jan M. said:


> Your reservation was for a specific unit number that was an ocean front unit at Royal Vista and a VC put do not move on it too but the resort put you, not a guest, but you as an owner and not just any owner but a platinum/presidential reserve owner, in a non ocean front unit? I hope that you at least contacted owner care and got your points back. Resort managers can be replaced and sometimes are when they get caught pulling b.s. like this and owners complain. Sometimes some of them need reminded that they are not gods in their own little kingdoms.
> 
> In the future if that ever happens to you, or any of you reading this post, start a thread here on TUG asking other owners to call owner care voicing their concerns about that resort and the resort manager. When owner care starts getting multiple calls about the same thing they take it seriously in my experience.



Yes, had the room "do not move" label for room 4001, on the 4th floor of the front building, Saturday check in during Spring Break, April 1-8.  Got placed in room on back building, 5th floor, overlooking the "intercoastal" which is really the street view from the 5th floor.  I had double checked room status with Wyndham corporate the day before.  The RV manager says he does not pay attention to "do not move" designations, and he claimed he has Wyndham's backing to do so.  He invited me to come to the annual meeting at RV, to hear them reiterate that contention.  No thanks.


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## vacationhopeful

See my avatar picture ... that was taken on the balcony of a Royal Vista unit ... I think the 5th floor several Aprils ago.

The A1A/Ocean Drive view is over a parking lot and the entrance to the front of the building. Public bus service, trucks, cars, the traffic light "stop & go", street lights all night long and absolutely no view or sounds of being anywhere near the ocean/beach.


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## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> See my avatar picture ... that was taken on the balcony of a Royal Vista unit ... I think the 5th floor several Aprils ago.
> 
> The A1A/Ocean Drive view is over a parking lot and the entrance to the front of the building. Public bus service, trucks, cars, the traffic light "stop & go", street lights all night long and absolutely no view or sounds of being anywhere near the ocean/beach.



Yes.  And I have stayed in rooms on the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th floors in that front building.  I have done so every year for ten years now. Never had a problem for either myself or a guest staying there if I used ARP and "do not move".  It has NEVER not worked.  Except this year.  And it wasn't due to maintenance.  It was manager's discretion.   Why do I own at RV and use my ARP if that's my treatment?   I could just use my Panama City points and reserve a street view unit at ten months.  PCB MFs are about 30% cheaper than RV.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bnoble

It can't hurt to let Owner Care know this is happening. There are a few resorts that do this, and while local management thinks they have the right to do this, they do not. Wyndham-managed resorts which carry the label "VIP Benefits Apply" are obligated to provide VIP perks---and Royal Vista is definitely one of those. Even as a resale-only low-point peon, I get this.


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## Sandy VDH

This resort and Sea Gardens are notorious for not honoring 'Do NOT Move'.  The Sea Gardens arrogant GM will even move people out of Ocean Palms bookings and into Cabanas or Waterfalls, even though those rooms are LESS points and the Ocean Palms building is MORE points.  I know they can't change Royal Vista point structure, but if they would have made these more points than that might have helped.  

There is Point Saver units at Royal Vista, where are these rooms?


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## ronparise

So it would seem the "play" here is to reserve the points saver rooms and ask for a premium view


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## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> So it would seem the "play" here is to reserve the points saver rooms and ask for a premium view



Well pucker your lips and figure out what you have to kiss to get that oceanfront unit.


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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> So it would seem the "play" here is to reserve the points saver rooms and ask for a premium view



That's a better option than my "play."  Mine was to tie up full value 203,000 points for 13 months using ARP contract that has an MF rate of about $7.00 per 1,000.  I believe PT Barnum had a quote about me.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> Well pucker your lips and figure out what you have to kiss to get that oceanfront unit.



Somebody is gonna get them and the post here say it's not going to be the guy that paid for them

So why not me


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## vacationhopeful

Remember ... a resort manager makes chump change compared to a HIGH producing sales person.


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## OutSkiing

wjappraise said:


> Yes, had the room "do not move" label for room 4001, on the 4th floor of the front building, Saturday check in during Spring Break, April 1-8.  Got placed in room on back building, 5th floor, overlooking the "intercoastal" which is really the street view from the 5th floor.  I had double checked room status with Wyndham corporate the day before.  The RV manager says he does not pay attention to "do not move" designations, and he claimed he has Wyndham's backing to do so.  He invited me to come to the annual meeting at RV, to hear them reiterate that contention.  No thanks.



OMG this is sickening, assuming you were present yourself at check in.  If so, I would definitely pursue it with OC and Wyndham management .. doesn't seem that manager should be working there unless he gets a better understanding of ARP and VIP ownership.

BTW some of the 'point saver' rooms actually have a view of the ocean looking north.  I once had one of the x001 units booked on the ocean front (reciprocal ARP at 11 months), then a family member had a conflict so I had to re-book another week .. only thing available at that time was the point saver so I took it (I think I strung together a 3 day and 4 day somehow and one of those was the ocean view point saver). OC and I both felt it might have some view from it's positioning but with a palm tree partially blocking.  When we got there .. two cars full of tired people they had put me in a parking lot view!  I was nearly in tears.  Stood there asking them to double check, and then for the manager.  Finally the manager put us back in the 'point saver' saying he was 'pretty sure' the people slated to check in there were not the owners.  The palm tree was not much of an obstacle at all. I suppose whoever was checking in after us were pretty disappointed but I assume he was right and that they were renters.

I've also been in the parking lot view .. on a 3 day stay over I got last minute.  That would have been a big disappointment if it were not so last minute. I have yet to be in an ocean front at Royal Vista.

Bob


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## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> Yes.  And I have stayed in rooms on the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th floors in that front building.  I have done so every year for ten years now. Never had a problem for either myself or a guest staying there if I used ARP and "do not move".  It has NEVER not worked.  Except this year.  And it wasn't due to maintenance.  It was manager's discretion.   Why do I own at RV and use my ARP if that's my treatment?   I could just use my Panama City points and reserve a street view unit at ten months.  PCB MFs are about 30% cheaper than RV.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You own at Royal Vista and were treated like that? Usually when you own at a resort they go out of their way to take care of you. It adds insult to injury that you used your ARP too for the stay! Did you call owner care and ask for your points back?

In the future if you are going back and have an oceanfront unit reserved I would call owner care a week or two before you are due to arrive and tell them that because of your bad experiences in the past that you would like them to contact the resort manager to ensure that you are given the unit you booked and treated with the respect and consideration usually given to owners who stay at their home resorts.

Another thing you might consider doing is getting the contact information for the members of the board of directors at Royal Vista and sending them each a letter or email about how you as an owner there were treated.


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## wjappraise

OutSkiing said:


> Finally the manager put us back in the 'point saver' saying he was 'pretty sure' the people slated to check in there were not the owners.



"Pretty sure" the manager just screwed an owner.   I would think once they start down this road, it perpetuates itself.  An owner shows up and is upset with his room, and the manager moves him to a room that he is "pretty sure" is filled with renters.  Then those folks show up, and they are owners, and upset.  So, he has to move them to a nicer room, to cover his "problem."  Before long he has given away the nicest room in the place in the hopes the next owner or renter that shows up won't make a stink, or the owner shows up so late due to airline problem, that the manager is gone and the owner has no choice but to accept the room and go to bed (me!). 

And once word gets out that complaining or being upset gets you "upgraded" then it will take on a life of its own.  Further complicating it is the implied bribery of upgrading someone's room to get them to agree to a sales pitch.  Royal Vista is a small resort with every room assigned to an owner (or guest) for the entire winter and spring break seasons.  There simply are no available "upgrades" without screwing the rightful owner of that room.  And that is the problem.  And the net result is that owners like me will not see the merit in paying the extra cost for a Royal Vista MF.


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## wjappraise

Jan M. said:


> Another thing you might consider doing is getting the contact information for the members of the board of directors at Royal Vista and sending them each a letter or email about how you as an owner there were treated.



Thanks, Jan.


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## vacationhopeful

The Wyndham resort managers lately are NOT the professional managers of yester-year. A 90 unit building (aka Santa Barbara) or 93 unit building (aka Royal Vista) are small places with freshly minted (promoted) managers. With a college degree in marketing, perhaps a sales person who did not make the commission mark or just someone's relative ... verses the resort manager & assistants at a large resort, like Bonnet Creek.

The front desk staff used to have 5-10+ years of experience ... and could RUN the checkin & understood people. Today, most of them got the job if they can enter a name into the computer ... pleasant and young, but trying to get into sales (marketing majors are a dime a dozen without jobs).

8-10 years ago ... I chatted up a floor maid at Wyndham Santa Barbara. Nice person who tried to help every guest to make their stay pleasant. The next year, I had a issue with a Guest Letter for a fixed week guest after 11PM. The front desk clerk could NOT find them in the computer .. the guest called me and handed the phone over to this same woman (now on the overnight clerk). She promptly told me who she was and we got her to find the right system .. got my guest into the room. The next winter, she was working the afternoon slot, etc. She moved up in year 4 to being the Front End manager for Royal Vista and then Sea Gardens.

Then, came in the universal agent. Gone. And no one on ANY of the front desk knew much of anything.

And it has not improved .. even slightly .. over the pass 3 years now. Royal Vista does get the guest certificates off the computer (and I don't promise anything to Royal Vista guests). Santa Barbara and Sea Gardens fixed weeks... I call at least twice to add the names with an email to the NEWEST email address ... give copies to the guests and KNOW to answer my phones.

And have had Wyndham guests (not my guests) roosting still a few times in my deeded fixed week units... that I have learned about. Could have happen more .. but those guests did not call me or just figured I was an airhead and took whatever unit they got a room key for.


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## Sandy VDH

The whole Universal Agent is a nightmare.  They have a completely different agenda than a true front desk, and are likely being rewarded/compensated for that sales bent.  So it is completely at odds with what the front desk is suppose to do.  So couple that behavior of attend a presentation or buy and I will give you a better unit, along with lack of training and the two system inventory (fixed weeks and points) problem.

Lack of training aside, and sales vs hotel management, at least the inventory system could be improved.  It would be easy enough for Wyndham to combine the both the fixed interval system and the point reservation system, at least for presentation to the front desk staff.  All they would have to do is convert Fixed Weeks into an equivalent reservations in the point system with 0 points and 0 fees, with DO NOT MOVE FIXED WEEK designations.  It would at least solve the dual inventory problem, but it wouldn't help if the front desk staff still ignore DO NOT MOVE designations, which is appears that Pompano area resorts (more so at Royal Vista, Sea Gardens and Santa Barbara) have to have constant problems with.


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## vacationhopeful

The Wyndham beach trio of resorts ... Sea Gardens, Santa Barbara and Royal Vista only have 1 sales site ... the top floor of Royal Vista where the whole OPEN sales floor is facing the ocean. And sales proudly states "Buy here and YOU will get a ocean front unit as you OWN here". But they will also sell CWA ... but originally, Royal Vista was NOT in CWA.

Royal Vista was the ONLY Pompano (and Ft Lauderdale) resort totally in UDI points ownership. 93 1bdr and 2bdr units. 52 weeks worth of UDI points sold. And everyone WANTS Week 51 thru Week 14 plus Week 25/26/27 ... depending how July 4th falls. And there is a rumor, some RV points are now in CWA.

Sea Gardens has oceanfront units ... all are studio units in either North or South Oceanview buildings. 4 floors with 6 units per floor in each building. And many of the PRIME season weeks are still OWNED by Fixed Week owners .. like ME. And NO BALCONIES .. those patio doors open onto a "Juliet" balcony with a depth of 4".

And the Sea Gardens resort/Ocean Palms building and the Santa Barbara resort have 'some' units with partial views of the intercoastal waterway ... if you want to consider those a 'water view' units. And both buildings (Ocean Palms & Santa Barbara have many prime weeks still owned by fixed week owners).

So, I have acquired Wyndham fixed weeks in Pompano beach ... starting 10+ years ago...before CWA was started. And I have way over a 1,300,000 Royal Vista UDI points. And I have even MORE fixed weeks at a non-Wyndham resort in Ft Lauderdale. So YES, I can spend all winter from Week 52 til Week 14 in the Ft Lauderdale/Pompano Beach area.

And why do I have weeks/points at 4 different resorts? Hurricanes ... Santa Barbara was closed for several years ... owners had a LARGE special assessment and MANY dumped their ownership to PCCs who sold on eBay ... where I brought. And after it reopened, the deeds that Santa Barbara HOA foreclosed on .. were ALL SOLD to CWA on a "Just In Time" model for $1 each. And I would suspect that ALL fixed weeks acquired now all go into CWA ... as well as ALL UDI deeds.


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## Sandy VDH

vacationhopeful said:


> Santa Barbara was closed for several years ... owners had a LARGE special assessment



I still own 2 Sea Gardens weeks.   i used to own a Santa Barbara week, but did an Equity trade to avoid that HUGE (>$2K) Special assessment.  I had also acquired a small studio fixed week at another Non-FL resort just prior to this.   So in one transaction, and with a Developer purchase for 160K points from Wyndham, I converted 3 fixed weeks to points, I also PICed two other weeks and and did the equity trade on the Santa Barbara unit.  It was my only purchase from Wyndham direct, but I got my VIP Platinum out of it.  They tried to remove my Platinum when they went through the housekeeping process a few years ago, but I had it written into my Contract that PLATINUM was a condition of the transaction.  So I got reinstated as I was able to show them the contract. 

So can you do this today, I don't know. I don't think so.  I think now they require you to purchase some points for each PIC and for each converted week, if they let you. 

So like Linda I know those resorts pretty well, but I have converted all of my weeks to points.  No fixed weeks left for me.

It is a constant PITA when the front desk is more sales focused AND otherwise clueless to how their fixed and points operations work.  As well as their blatant disregard for DO NOT MOVE requests.  Chad, who at last check was at Sea Gardens, does not help with matters either.  I had to read him the riot act, and point out to him the Ocean Palms units were MORE points, and I completely expected my guests (one of my oldest friends (2nd grade), and her husband (who I went to University with)) to be placed in that building and NOT walked to another building instead. They did get OP but it was too many phone calls and chats with Chad to get the point across.


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## vacationhopeful

Dealt with Chad in person at Sea Gardens.

I got him to *give me* the Ocean Palms unit over the Cabanas unit where I was supposed to be sleeping. He wanted me to go to a Owner's Update. I left early to make my plane reservation. And called the front desk to check out after I got home ... and missed my Owner's Update appointment (oh, so sorry .. emergency back home at work. Big problem ... losing several days of my vacation. Had to get back ASAP.).


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## wjappraise

vacationhopeful said:


> Dealt with Chad in person at Sea Gardens.
> 
> I got him to *give me* the Ocean Palms unit over the Cabanas unit where I was supposed to be sleeping. He wanted me to go to a Owner's Update. I left early to make my plane reservation. And called the front desk to check out after I got home ... and missed my Owner's Update appointment (oh, so sorry .. emergency back home at work. Big problem ... losing several days of my vacation. Had to get back ASAP.).



And that's the problem.  Front desk staff are using room upgrades to entice sales tours.  And for each upgrade given there is an an equal and opposite reaction.  Someone like me getting shafted out of a room I booked 13 months earlier using ARP.  Doesn't seem ethical to me.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 55plus

wjappraise said:


> And that's the problem.  Front desk staff are using room upgrades to entice sales tours.  And for each upgrade given there is an an equal and opposite reaction.  Someone like me getting shafted out of a room I booked 13 months earlier using ARP.  Doesn't seem ethical to me. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Nothing about timeshares when it comes to management and sales is ethical. . .


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## vacationhopeful

I really was dumbfounded that he was 'dealing' with moving guests for attending an "owner's update". I expected him to return with a "looked but all those units are reserved" and up the $$$ to attend the update. I knew there are limited 140K Ocean Palms units (poor views) which would equal a Cabana's 1bdr points value ... But I believe I got a 154K Ocean Palms unit .... nice & high ocean view unit.


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## dagger1

Not to change the subject, but has there been any positive "movement" on any of the "suspended accounts"?


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## wjappraise

dagger1 said:


> Not to change the subject, but has there been any positive "movement" on any of the "suspended accounts"?



Thanks for pulling it back to the topic, dagger.  "Thumbs up" guy would be proud.   

Absolutely no updates for me. No communication from Wyndham except a robo call telling me I had two reservations under the same name that would be cancelled in ten days if no guest fee was paid.  

Although I paid my monthly fees today, and after I had paid it found that the computer overcharged me by $198.  I haven't called financial services yet, but it appears that they billed me for the two guest confirmations I had this month.  What is terrible is that I already paid for both at the time I made the guest name change.  In fact I don't think you can add a guest name without paying once you use your allotment.  

Kind of interesting that this glitch favors Wyndham.  Maybe I should "suspend" their account and prevent them from doing business!   Makes me think Wyndham is completely inept when it comes to programming. 

Anyone else?  


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## am1

The last few days Wyndham has been very poor at responding.  Left multiple messages Thursday, Friday and today and call backs apparently did happen but I cannot always be at my phone.  The callbacks were not within the hour as advised.  

Calling the regular Wyndham number yesterday I am transferred to financial services after requesting to be transferred to owner care.  Today I am speaking with an owner care rep and they tell me I have to speak to Steve who has worked on my account before.  He calls and tells me he is a VC who cannot help me.  

The 1-877 rep said I could not add a guest name to a reservation that started yesterday as it was past the day of check in (is that the law now?)  Considering the lack of communication and not being able to add a guest name online (last night after the phone center closes) I should be exempt from that.   In the end as it took so long to get the guest name added to the the reservation May 5 - 12 I told him to just add it to May 6 - 13 but note my account that I am being denied access to my reservations.  

Is it Est based or resort time based?  How are Asia/Pacific resorts handled?  

Hopefully things get resolved soon as I have long ago lose my patience.


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## Bigrob

am1 said:


> The last few days Wyndham has been very poor at responding.  Left multiple messages Thursday, Friday and today and call backs apparently did happen but I cannot always be at my phone.  The callbacks were not within the hour as advised.
> 
> Calling the regular Wyndham number yesterday I am transferred to financial services after requesting to be transferred to owner care.  Today I am speaking with an owner care rep and they tell me I have to speak to Steve who has worked on my account before.  He calls and tells me he is a VC who cannot help me.
> 
> The 1-877 rep said I could not add a guest name to a reservation that started yesterday as it was past the day of check in (is that the law now?)  Considering the lack of communication and not being able to add a guest name online (last night after the phone center closes) I should be exempt from that.   In the end as it took so long to get the guest name added to the the reservation May 5 - 12 I told him to just add it to May 6 - 13 but note my account that I am being denied access to my reservations.
> 
> Is it Est based or resort time based?  How are Asia/Pacific resorts handled?
> 
> Hopefully things get resolved soon as I have long ago lose my patience.



It is still possible to add a guest name to a reservation with a check-in date in the past. It is always a pain to do, and 9 times out of 10 the resort tells the guest they don't have a reservation when they show up - but it's gotten sorted out eventually. If you are going to have a guest checking in more than 48 hours after the start of the reservation you should call to make sure the resort does not cancel it.


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## am1

After 9 months I can add guest confirmations online.  Did a bunch tonight but it was much slower then on the previous site. Only could add them to my default member number but not the others.  Site is down now so will have to try again in the morning.  Saved $600 doing in online then over the phone.  It has been a long 9 months.


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## Sandi Bo

am1 said:


> After 9 months I can add guest confirmations online.  Did a bunch tonight but it was much slower then on the previous site. Only could add them to my default member number but not the others.  Site is down now so will have to try again in the morning.  Saved $600 doing in online then over the phone.  It has been a long 9 months.



But, you know, NOTHING makes sense.  Why should the new system let you transact online when the old didn't.  They should have lifted whatever restrictions were on suspended accounts in the old system (long ago) and they didn't.  The whole suspension thing just seemed to belly flop, nothing seemed to be going on, MANY were not officially cleared.   New system and all that goes "poof"? Makes no sense.  

But glad to hear you are able to transact (or were for a time anyways).


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## ilya

Sandi Bo said:


> But, you know, NOTHING makes sense.  Why should the new system let you transact online when the old didn't.  They should have lifted whatever restrictions were on suspended accounts in the old system (long ago) and they didn't.  The whole suspension thing just seemed to belly flop, nothing seemed to be going on, MANY were not officially cleared.   New system and all that goes "poof"? Makes no sense.
> 
> But glad to hear you are able to transact (or were for a time anyways).




I can see the next round of Audits coming real soon...


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## Sandi Bo

ilya said:


> I can see the next round of Audits coming real soon...



Well, allowing (some) people to transact when the new system is not properly functioning is just absurd!  I can't imagine how they are going to work their way out this mess.  

Thankfully I am in a spot where I don't need to.  Just hoping that when I am finally able to log in (or they go back) all my points and reservations are there.

I consider my points money, can you imagine if a bank did this and this was dollars and not points?  Totally unacceptable!


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## ilya

Sandi Bo said:


> Well, allowing (some) people to transact when the new system is not properly functioning is just absurb!  I can't imagine how they are going to work their way out this mess.
> 
> Thankfully I am in a spot where I don't need to.  Just hoping that when I am finally able to log in (or they go back) all my points and reservations are there.
> 
> I consider my points money, can you imagine if a bank did this and this was dollars and not points?  Totally unacceptable!




On hold with , well they just hung up on me, but they did say accounts are being audited before they allow access. can not add, change, select upgrade. Completely locked out because I have a large account. 1 mill points???  that's peanuts compared to others who were able to book over the last 2 days.


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## wjappraise

am1 said:


> After 9 months I can add guest confirmations online.  Did a bunch tonight but it was much slower then on the previous site. Only could add them to my default member number but not the others.  Site is down now so will have to try again in the morning.  Saved $600 doing in online then over the phone.  It has been a long 9 months.



Fantastic, Adam.  A bit of silver lining to this cluster fiasco.  Maybe the account restrictions will not follow you to the new platform.


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## wjappraise

Sandi Bo said:


> I consider my points money, can you imagine if a bank did this and this was dollars and not points?  Totally unacceptable!



Points are money.  It's time for a coup!


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## Sandy VDH

Sandi Bo said:


> But, you know, NOTHING makes sense.  Why should the new system let you transact online when the old didn't.  They should have lifted whatever restrictions were on suspended accounts in the old system (long ago) and they didn't.  The whole suspension thing just seemed to belly flop, nothing seemed to be going on, MANY were not officially cleared.   New system and all that goes "poof"? Makes no sense.
> 
> But glad to hear you are able to transact (or were for a time anyways).



Could be a few simple problems, the new system for suspension is coded differently (coding error or coding insufficient or coding absent) OR when they did the conversion of account info the suspended info did not translate properly (data conversion error) OR both.  

This is Wyndham IT we are talking about.  A 7+ year IT project and rollout is going this bad.  I sure hope people get fired over this.


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## Jan M.

Sandy VDH said:


> Could be a few simple problems, the new system for suspension is coded differently (coding error or coding insufficient or coding absent) OR when they did the conversion of account info the suspended info did not translate properly (data conversion error) OR both.
> 
> This is Wyndham IT we are talking about.  A 7+ year IT project and rollout is going this bad.  I sure hope people get fired over this.



Unfortunately the it would be the little guys that get fired instead of the higher ups who insisted the system be brought online when it is obvious that it was nowhere near ready.


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## Sandy VDH

Jan M. said:


> Unfortunately the it would be the little guys that get fired instead of the higher ups who insisted the system be brought online when it is obvious that it was nowhere near ready.



4 common causes to system conversion failures

1) insufficient focus and urgency on the getting data cleaned up before the conversion takes place, and providing appropriate testing to ensure data converted correctly.
2) Insufficient performance testing - system is slow because they never test for sufficient number of CONCURRENT users.
3) Failure to Met USER NEEDS - big issue on SEARCH Function for us - they don't understand how the user wants to use the system.  For instance I know my dates/Where to go Search scenario works great, but if I'm the opportunistic or late to the party/looking for leftovers search and I need to see what is left, then the search provided is basically useless (adding +/- days and first available would help significantly in the short term but long term not enough, need the concept of the green boxes to be implemented in new site.)  in this case the search function works as designed, coded and tested.  Problem is that is don't support the users needs in a search.
4) Insufficient staffing for call center operations for roll out support

I think Wyndham failed on all accounts here.


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## Bigrob

Sandy VDH said:


> 4 common causes to system conversion failures
> 
> 1) insufficient focus and urgency on the getting data cleaned up before the conversion takes place, and providing appropriate testing to ensure data converted correctly.
> 2) Insufficient performance testing - system is slow because they never test for sufficient number of CONCURRENT users.
> 3) Failure to Met USER NEEDS - big issue on SEARCH Function for us - they don't understand how the user wants to use the system.  For instance I know my dates/Where to go Search scenario works great, but if I'm the opportunistic or late to the party/looking for leftovers search and I need to see what is left, then the search provided is basically useless (adding +/- days and first available would help significantly in the short term but long term not enough, need the concept of the green boxes to be implemented in new site.)  in this case the search function works as designed, coded and tested.  Problem is that is don't support the users needs in a search.
> 4) Insufficient staffing for call center operations for roll out support
> 
> I think Wyndham failed on all accounts here.



Don't forget that their idea of support is to drop a business card behind with the wrong phone number on it. 

Not only is the contact center insufficiently staffed, they are also insufficiently trained on the new system, and the telephony does not support standard contact center functions/features. Thus people are getting disconnected (after waiting over an hour to get through) when agents go off to try to resolve problems with a supervisor, call out to a resort, etc. Has already happened 3 times to me, after waiting over an hour each time to get through.

And of course the outgoing message advising me that there are high call volumes and wouldn't it really be better for me to transact this myself online is utterly annoying. YEAH... why do you think the call volume is so high? Because we CAN'T get online.


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## vacationhopeful

Just spent my hour listening to 'the music' to get to a call center rep. All my reservations are there .... I have point balances (means not everything vanished). 

But I am still unable to log onto the online system. 

Next trip ... NYC. How much fun can I have in the Big Apple? Days away. And I got an upgrade.


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## Braindead

AM1 treatment is the biggest surprise of all this mess to me. 
I'm glad you have access and can at least do GCs online. 

If there was one person that Wyndham seem to think was the devil. It was you. And as others have stated you seemed uncooperative and combative at times.

Glad you have access ! Just surprised you have it. While a lot of us are left in the cold


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## ilya

vacationhopeful said:


> Just spent my hour listening to 'the music' to get to a call center rep. All my reservations are there .... I have point balances (means not everything vanished).
> 
> But I am still unable to log onto the online system.
> 
> Next trip ... NYC. How much fun can I have in the Big Apple? Days away. And I got an upgrade.




Did they make any reservations for you?


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## vacationhopeful

Did not ask. Figured SOMEDAY they will have the system up online. Until then, I am not going to sit for hours on end to get thru etc.

Planning what EVIL I can do in NYC now.


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## chapjim

wjappraise said:


> Points are money.  It's time for a coup!



You should hook up with that "bestresort" guy that wants to sue to get Wyndham out of Wyndham!!  <grin>


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## wjappraise

chapjim said:


> You should hook up with that "bestresort" guy that wants to sue to get Wyndham out of Wyndham!!  <grin>



Wouldn't it be great if we could effect a change!   But it does help to just vent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uscav8r

am1 said:


> After 9 months I can add guest confirmations online.  Did a bunch tonight but it was much slower then on the previous site. Only could add them to my default member number but not the others.  Site is down now so will have to try again in the morning.  Saved $600 doing in online then over the phone.  It has been a long 9 months.



You've apparently got a clean slate with the new (problematic) website. Now don't @$&# it up! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## foundyoubyaccident

OMG!  I just called the telephone number they have listed on the feedback.... If your a female and want to talk to a male, press __ now...  Live people waiting to talk to you!  I was able to access the site... until a new contract dropped in.  This is the 2nd time this has happened to me.


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## Cdn Gal

Are you kidding???  If I am female, do I want to talk to a male???  Please tell me you are joking!


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## vacationhopeful

Cdn Gal said:


> Are you kidding???  If I am female, do I want to talk to a male???  Please tell me you are joking!



This is serious business for Wyndham; they might NOT be kidding. Sounds like they are trying to "profile" you for a sales pitch... a company does that "type casting" before they have an interactions with a target; in a captive customer base, the company should KNOW who their customer is ... or do like the other million companies, 'ask in a different language to press number x for (language/SEX) contact').

This should be a piece of evidence as to HOW much this company lives in the 'dark ages'. And this is NOT customer service ... it is a sales promo.


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## Sandi Bo

vacationhopeful said:


> This is serious business for Wyndham; they might NOT be kidding. Sounds like they are trying to "profile" you for a sales pitch... a company does that "type casting" before they have an interactions with a target; in a captive customer base, the company should KNOW who their customer is ... or do like the other million companies, 'ask in a different language to press number x for (language/SEX) contact').
> 
> This should be a piece of evidence as to HOW much this company lives in the 'dark ages'. And this is NOT customer service ... it is a sales promo.


Oh, wow, I thought it was a joke.


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## Jan M.

Sandi Bo said:


> Oh, wow, I thought it was a joke.



I thought the OP had mistakenly dialed a phone sex number!


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## nicemann

Jan M. said:


> I thought the OP had mistakenly dialed a phone sex number!



I was thinking the same thing and almost commented that earlier but figured they were joking.


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## foundyoubyaccident

nope, and sorry for the delay, had a 24 hour bug.  the number listed is 26 instead of 36 on the feedback call #.


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## chapjim

foundyoubyaccident said:


> OMG!  I just called the telephone number they have listed on the feedback.... If your a female and want to talk to a male, press __ now...  Live people waiting to talk to you!  I was able to access the site... until a new contract dropped in.  This is the 2nd time this has happened to me.



Did they ask you what you were wearing?


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## rickandcindy23

Our account is still not available online.  They are auditing our ownership, apparently.


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## vacationhopeful

I am packed and leaving town. Think I will head up to the Shawnee area ... and go float in their indoor pool and hot tub. Maybe do some activities ... and chat up some people. At least, I as a Shawnee fixed week owner, can get a guest pass to be onsite. 

I do have alternate accommodations for the holiday weekend. If anyone else is around, text/call my cell number (856) 981 0606 .... I have beer. 

PS I will have very limited internet for most of this holiday week.


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## MaryBella7

vacationhopeful said:


> I am packed and leaving town. Think I will head up to the Shawnee area ... and go float in their indoor pool and hot tub. Maybe do some activities ... and chat up some people. At least, I as a Shawnee fixed week owner, can get a guest pass to be onsite.
> 
> I do have alternate accommodations for the holiday weekend. If anyone else is around, text/call my cell number (856) 981 0606 .... I have beer.
> 
> PS I will have very limited internet for most of this holiday week.



Maybe I'll join you! I am deeded at Shawnee as well! Lindas are not to be messed with...


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## Cdn Gal

chapjim said:


> Did they ask you what you were wearing?


lol


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## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Our account is still not available online.  They are auditing our ownership, apparently.



Coming from an owner who has been suspended (partially thawed) for more than nine months now, I am so sorry you are facing this Rick and Cindy.  I wish I could offer more than empathy, but the all powerful Oz of Wyndham simply does not care.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CO skier

The frozen accounts are mentioned in a lawsuit working its way through the Tennessee courts.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...suits-against-wyndham-sales-practices.256562/

81. On February 9, 2017 counsel for the Defendants notified the Plaintiffs through counsel that their timeshare accounts were being frozen and therefore as a consequence Plaintiffs would not be able to use any current reservations or make any additional reservations indefinitely.

82. On February 17, 2017 Plaintiffs’ counsel responded to Defendants’ letter asking that Plaintiffs’ accounts not be frozen and for further assurances that the plaintiffs’ accounts would in fact not be frozen.

83. There has been no further communication from defense counsel confirming or denying the current state of the Plaintiffs’ accounts or any plans to unfreeze said accounts.



136. Furthermore, Defendants breached said contracts by alerting the Plaintiffs that their accounts would be frozen and they no longer would have any access to their deeded properties beginning on February 28, 2017.

137. Defendants’ stated that Plaintiffs cannot book with points already paid for, and reservations already made, would be cancelled.

138. Defendants’ statements have now put Plaintiffs in limbo over whether they can book vacations, use their points to book vacations or pay maintenance fees, rent their timeshare, or otherwise use the timeshares they have paid for.

139. Defendants’ February 9, 2017 letter and subsequent lack of assurances or response to Plaintiffs’ February 17, 2017 letter has made it impossible for the Plaintiffs to reasonably exercise their rights under the contracts even if they have apparent ability to do so.


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## ronparise

This is something different than the suspensions that have been discussed here in tug

We all got our suspension emails on aug 23, 2016

I think the common thread that ran through all our cases was wyndhams assertion that we had more points in our accounts than could be justified by our ownership

I'm interested to know why Wyndham froze these Tenn accounts


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## CO skier

s





ronparise said:


> This is something different than the suspensions that have been discussed here in tug
> 
> I'm interested to know why Wyndham froze these Tenn accounts


If you do not know why Wyndham froze these Tenn accounts, how do you know it is different than the suspension deep freeze?

Maybe the Plaintiffs passed the August, 2016 scan, and it was only an audit resulting from their lawsuit that revealed a reason for a suspension that may or may not have been related to the prior account freezes.  If there is a reason for the suspension related to manipulation of the reservation system, this part of their suit is doa, at least to this legal layman's eye.

Regardless, the legal viability of account freezes is on trial here, and the results will be most interesting.


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## CO skier

edited previous post, instead.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> s
> If you do not know why Wyndham froze these Tenn accounts, how do you know it is different



It is different because they were suspended in feb 2017. We were suspended in aug 2016.   We were all suspended because we had too many points in our accounts according to wyndham, not because any of us sued wyndham. 
Sales practices are on trial here, not the suspensions

And by the way  none of us were accused of manipulating the reservations system

The numbers in the suit don't add up. 4 purchases $155000, $115000, $182000 and $18000.   That's over $450000. At $200 per 1000 points that should mean 2.3 million. The also say the total spent was $200,400 and they own 1.3 million   There's a mention of trade ins so maybe that's the answer or maybe they spent 200000 cash and still owe $250k

Id bet that the their freeze is retaliation. Not because they did anything wrong. But because they sued These folks were clearly taken advantage of.but  I gotta wonder why they kept going back for more. Since 2010. 


This isn't going anywhere because it's no different than the hundreds of other similar cases Wyndham is dealing with (or has dealt with) and they always win or settle.


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> The numbers in the suit don't add up. 4 purchases $155000, $115000, $182000 and $18000.   That's over $450000. At $200 per 1000 points that should mean 2.3 million. The also say the total spent was $200,400 and they own 1.3 million   There's a mention of trade ins so maybe that's the answer or maybe they spent 200000 cash and still owe $250k
> 
> Id bet that the their freeze is retaliation. Not because they did anything wrong. But because they sued These folks were clearly taken advantage of.but  I gotta wonder why they kept going back for more. Since 2010.


Could the suit be because they were uptrading and upgreeding for a rental business.  When the rental business did not work out, they sued.  If that is the case, and they made and used reservations after any of their purchases, their attorneys, who have no idea about how owner rental businesses work, will be in for a big and unpleasant surprise.

On the other hand, it may be simply retaliation.  That will be the interesting facts revealed in this very public lawsuit, as it should be.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Could the suit be because they were uptrading and upgreeding for a rental business.  When the rental business did not work out, they sued.  If that is the case, and they made and used reservations after any of their purchases, their attorneys, who have no idea about how owner rental businesses work, will be in for a big and unpleasant surprise.
> 
> On the other hand, it may be simply retaliation.  That will be the interesting facts revealed in this very public lawsuit, as it should be.



It cant be a rental business ... they only owned 1.3 million points. They were sold on the idea that they could offset their maintenance fees with rentals, but that dosent make it a business. They owned at National Harbor, with maintenance fees at aboyt $4/1000 points so their fees were only about $5500/year. Four decent rentals would generate enough money to cover those fees, with enough left over for a free vacation themselves.  And 4 rentals a year does not make a rental business. 

Note that the complaint uses the word "froze".  Wyndham used a different word last August...we were suspended. I suspect that their account is frozen because they didnt pay, their loan payment or maintenance fees. At least thats another possibility

they bought their points between 2010 and 2014... Here we are 3 years later and they are just now complaining about the sales tactics.... thats where I think their case breaks down.   What changed?  If they were sold on the ability to rent, wouldnt they have succeeded or failed at it sometime in 2014 or 2015>>  Wyndhan gets sued like this a lot, the complaint mentions 150 similar suits wyndham is dealing with right now, I understand that no one reads all the paperwork at a settlement, but the rescission clause is on the same page in bold type directly above the signature block

I can hear the wyndham lawyer now... Is this your signature? Would you please read the words in bold type directly above your signature?  Did you say 10 days?  What date did you sign this?   How many days between that date and when you contacted an attorney?   Did you take any vacations in that time frame?


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## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Our account is still not available online.  They are auditing our ownership, apparently.



Are you back online?  If so, what was the result of the audit?  Thanks for sharing.


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## wjappraise

Any updates from any of the suspended owners?  My status is still the same as it was since October 2016.  My most recent phone call (only the third call I have received since August 2016) has resulted in absolutely nothing. No calls, no emails, no updates.  But they keep cashing my checks. And sending me bills.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

BUMP /  all 1893 posts - from Aug  2016 - July 2017

for those who need something to read while the July 2021 thread on changes to Wyndham VIP
Is on 24 hour hiatus.


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## SueDonJ

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> BUMP /  all 1893 posts - from Aug  2016 - July 2017
> 
> for those who need something to read while the July 2021 thread on changes to Wyndham VIP
> Is on 24 hour hiatus.



The temporary closure of that Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/22 [MERGED] thread means that the discussion is on hold until the thread is re-opened. This bumped thread makes for interesting reading but that suspended discussion isn't going to take place here.


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