# 8/24/22 NEW THREAD: Discussion of new Abound/VSN Documents [please limit chitchat posts]



## dioxide45

*I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation. 

• I moved all of the posts from 8/24/22 to this thread, starting with the Docs posted on Vistana. 

• Please avoid off topic chitchat posts - let's keep this thread informational.

DeniseM*


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*ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS*
*Can I use my StarOptions to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*

No. Club Points is the currency that may be used to confirm vacations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties in Abound. In order to reserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property through Abound, you must first elect your eligible VOI(s) to receive Club Points.
*Does Abound by Marriott Vacations™ replace the Vistana Signature Network (VSN)?*

No. If you choose to vacation at your Home Resort(s) or stay within the Vistana resort collection, you can use your VOI(s) as you have done in the past. Access to Abound — by electing to receive Club Points — is another use option that will be available to you but is not mandatory. Each Use Year, you choose, depending on where and how you want to vacation that year.
Electing to receive Club Points for eligible VOI(s) is an option that enables you to reserve vacations across the expanded network of brands.
*How is resort inventory made available for Club Points redemption?*

When enrolled and affiliated Owners across all brands in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) comparable inventory based on the Owner’s VOI is made available for exchange through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
*How will the affiliation impact how I use my ownership?*

Since the affiliation between VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ does not affect what you currently own, you may use your ownership as you have in the past:
Reserve a vacation at your Home Resort(s).
Reserve an in-network vacation through VSN.
Bank your StarOptions®.
Use StarOptions for other vacations like hotel stays and cruises through VSN Select.
Convert your VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy® points.
Exchange your VOI(s) through Interval International®.

Beginning with your 2023 Use Year, you will be able to enjoy a new use option and elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs to use in Abound.
*If I wish to reserve a vacation in the Vistana Signature Network, can I continue to use my VOI(s) to do so?*

Yes. You do not need to elect to receive Club Points to use your StarOptions to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resort or reserve some other usage option in the VSN. In fact, if you intend to use your VOI(s) to reserve your Home Resort or another Vistana resort, we recommend that you understand the number of Club Points that would be required for your desired vacation prior to making the decision of whether to elect. The Club Points and StarOptions currencies are different, and the number of StarOptions required may differ from the number of Club Points required. _Points charts coming soon._
Club Points may be used to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, Westin Vacation Club resorts, and other vacation experiences. However, you may find it more advantageous to continue using your StarOptions for stays at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts.

Currency to UseWhen I Want to:Home Options or Weeks-Based VOI(s)Reserve a vacation at my Home Resort(s)StarOptionsReserve a vacation within the Vistana Signature Network of resorts or through VSN SelectClub PointsReserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or another vacation experience through Abound. You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but the number of Club Points required will vary from the number of StarOptions required. We recommend you look at the Points Charts prior to making the decision to elect to receive Club Points.

*What are "eligible VOIs”?*

Eligible VOIs:
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.
VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
VOIs enrolled in VSN at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and Westin Riverfront resort will not be able to elect to receive Club Points at the time Abound transactions go live and these VOIs will not count toward the Owners benefit level. We anticipate that these VOIs will be eligible to elect to receive Club Points and count toward the Owner’s benefit level in the future. Additionally, Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound until Owners at these properties are able to elect to receive Club Points.
Restricted, First Day Benefit and Bonus StarOptions are not eligible for election.
Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.

*What is Abound by Marriott Vacations?*

Vistana Signature Network™ (VSN) has been affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, the internal exchange program previously available only to Marriott Vacation Club Owners.
The affiliation will enable VSN members to elect their eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) to receive Club Points. Club Points may be used in Abound to confirm vacations throughout an expanded network of brands including Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club villa resorts, as well as Vistana Beach Club.
Through Abound, VSN Members can also use Club Points for cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, car rental, airline miles, golf, travel protection, and more.
_Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._
Why is the VSN™ being affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?

When Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquired ILG in 2018, we announced that we intended to look for ways to expand vacation opportunities for Owners across the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands. Since that announcement, we have been working behind the scenes to set up the guidelines, systems, and technology to enable expanded offerings and fulfill this promise. The affiliation with Abound is the result of the effort to offer Owners more choice and more destinations in a way that is simple to navigate and understand.
*Will I need to take any action to become part of Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*

If you are currently a member of VSN with eligible VOIs all you will need to do in order to receive Club Points to use for vacations at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or one of the thousands of vacation experience options available through Abound, is elect to receive Club Points by the associated deadline each year. Electing to receive Club Points does not happen automatically and is optional.
*Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ affect my maintenance fees?*

The affiliation will not impact your maintenance fees to the extent that maintenance fees are comprised only of your Home Resort(s) property’s operating costs and reserve fees. If you own a product where the maintenance fees also include fees associated with a membership in VSN, then they may be impacted to the extent VSN membership fees are adjusted.
The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network).
Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
*Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ change my deeded ownership?*

No. The affiliation between these two programs enhances your usage options but does not change your deed in any way. Your Vacation Ownership Interest(s) are the same.
*BENEFIT LEVELS*
*Are there any benefits from my VSN Elite level that will no longer be available?*

Early check-in, late check-out, and concierge service that may have been previously available, based on demand, will no longer be available. Additionally, VSN Members at the higher Owner benefit levels will no longer receive discounted fees since they are replaced by Club Dues.
*As a 5-Star Elite level Member of VSN, I receive a 10% Marriott Bonvoy bonus. Will I still receive this bonus with my new Owner benefit level?*

The 10% bonus remains in place for VSN VOIs that have a Presidential or Chairman’s Club Owner benefit level (formerly 4- or 5-Star Elite Owners) when you convert your VSN VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
*Individual Owner benefit level: Once elected, the use of Club Points follow the rules for each individual’s Owner benefit level when transacting in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange system. What else do I need to know about an individual Owner benefit level?*

An individual Owner benefit level is calculated based on the contract(s) an individual is named on.
When a VSN Member elects to receive and then uses Club Points, the individual Owner benefit level will determine the parameters of the rules. This includes the following transactions:
Deadline for banking and the usage window for banked Club Points
Reservation timeframes and cancellation timeframes
Last-minute Points reservation discounts
Vacation experience credit benefits and expanded offers such as private vacation homes

*I am a biennial Owner. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*

Club Points values will be calculated at 50% annually toward your Owner benefit level since your ownership is only allocated every-other-year. For example, if your biennial ownership is valued at 4,000 Club Points every-other-year, it will be calculated at 2,000 Club Points annually toward your Owner benefit level.
*I own VOIs in both a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club (or affiliated) ownership resort and Marriott Vacation Club. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*

When VSN is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations, the Club Points for all of an Owner’s contracts will be combined between the expanded brands. Many VSN Members will enjoy savings from paying one annual Club Dues fee (based on their new Owner benefit level) rather than paying both Club Dues with Marriott Vacation Club and a VSN fee.
If you are named on a contract, the total number of Club Points at which your VOI(s) are valued will be added together to determine your individual Owner benefit level.
*I was awarded Elite Level Qualification Credits (ELQC) when I purchased my ownership through Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club. What will happen with the ELQC program? *

The ELQC program has been discontinued. However, ELQCs previously given to Owners have been included in the calculation of VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels used to determine new Owner benefit levels to the extent applicable.
*In the case where an Owner’s benefit level is different from other Owners on the contract, which level governs their transactions?*

When transacting in VSN, all Owners named on the membership will follow the rules of the primary Owner’s benefit level.
It is not common but possible that the primary Owner may have a lower Owner benefit level than others on the membership.

Once an Owner elects to receive Club Points, their individual Owner benefit level will govern the transactions when using Club Points.
*What are Owner Benefit Levels?*

VOIs enrolled in VSN have benefits and discounts based on Owner benefit levels, along with additional usage flexibility around timeframes and deadlines within Abound by Marriott Vacations.
As part of the affiliation, the VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels will be transitioning to align with the Abound Owner benefit level structure (Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman’s Club).
Owner benefit levels in Abound are based on the total Club Points election value of your eligible VOIs, in addition to any Marriott Vacation Club inventory (such as Club Points) you may own. When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
*What benefits will come with my new Owner benefit level?*

Marriott Bonvoy Elite level upgrades:
*Owner* benefit level Members will continue to receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Gold Elite level, as VSN Members do now.
*Select* and *Executive* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Platinum Elite level.
*Presidential* and *Chairman’s Club* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite level.
Owner benefit levels are reviewed annually and the corresponding Elite level upgrade will be renewed. VSN Members  will have the opportunity to designate one Owner from the account who will receive the Elite level upgrade at the time of such renewal.

Last-minute Points reservation discounts:
When a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points, Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of required Club Points when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 30 days of arrival.
Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club Owner benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 60 days of arrival.

Owner rental discounts:
If you are at the Owner or Select benefit level, you can receive a 25% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
If you are at the Executive benefit level, you can receive a 30% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
If you are at the Presidential or Chairman’s Club benefit level, you can receive a 35% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
The Owner rental discount codes will be the same as at all participating resorts and properties in the network and depends on availability and an Owner’s benefit level as noted above. Owners may reserve the discount rate on their Owner website, or on Marriott.com using the following codes:
7VC – 25% off – All Owners
6VC – 30% off – Executive Level or Higher
2VC – 35% off – Presidential Level or Higher


More flexible timeframes:
VSN Members at higher Owner benefit levels enjoy more flexible timeframes for confirming reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, as well as extended deadlines for transactions like electing to receive Club Points, and banking Club Points.  VSN Members also receive more flexible deadlines for converting VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.

More vacation experiences to explore:
When using Club Points, VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and higher enjoy additional vacation experience options, including the ability to reserve private vacation homes through Villas of Distinction and premier sporting and entertainment events.

Discounts and Destination Dollars:
VSN Members enjoy discounts for options like car rental and may receive Destination Dollars when reserving guided tours, vacation homes, cruises, and other options. Benefits/credits will vary based on the Owner benefit level.

*What is a Primary Owner on a Membership?*

The Owner with the highest “Individual Owner benefit level” among any of the Primary Owners of the VOI contracts in the VSN membership will be designated as the “Membership Owner Benefit Level” and the Primary Owner of the membership. If a tiebreaker is required among the Primary Owners on a membership, the Primary listed on the oldest active and solid (closed) contract based on purchase date will break the tie.
*What will happen to my VSN Elite level and/or the benefits associated with my VSN membership after the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*

VSN Elite levels are transitioning to Abound Owner benefit levels which are the following election values:
Owner: Up to 3,999 Club Points
Select: 4,000 to 6,999 Club Points
Executive: 7,000 to 9,999 Club Points
Presidential: 10,000 to 14,999 Club Points
Chairman’s Club: 15,000+ Club Points

VSN Members will be grandfathered to Abound Owner benefit levels as follows:

Election Value and/or VSN Elite LevelThis will be your Owner benefit level in Abound3-Star EliteExecutive - or higher4-Star ElitePresidential - or higher5-Star EliteChairman’s Club

*Why is my Owner benefit level higher in VSN than when I use Club Points in Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*

Each owner has an Owner benefit level that is calculated based on the eligible VOIs in which they are named on a deed, however when transacting within VSN, all rules (such as deadlines and the percent of Marriott Bonvoy points which VOIs may be converted) are based on the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner.
After electing to receive Club Points and when using them within Abound, each VSN Member’s individual Owner benefit level dictates the rules for the applicable transactions (such as the timeframes for making reservations and waitlist requests). When the VSN Member with the highest Owner benefit level uses the Club Points, all other VSN Members on the contract will enjoy the extended deadlines, timeframes, and other benefits associated with that individual’s benefit level.
*Will my new Owner benefit level change based on the years when I elect to receive Club Points?*

Your Owner benefit level is not dependent on how you use your VOI(s) each year.
When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
All Owners on a deed enjoy the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner when transacting within VSN. An individual’s Owner benefit level governs the rules for using Club Points in Abound.
An Owner’s benefit level could go up if an Owner purchases or enrolls more Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests, or go down if an Owner sells or unenrolls Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests.
Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.
A VSN Member may be subject to cancellation for non-payment of Club Dues which could result in a decreased Owner benefit level.
*VSN BENEFITS*
*Are there any changes to the cancellation policy for reservations I make at my Home Resort(s) or within VSN?*

Yes, unless you can and do opt-out, there are no longer cancellation fees for reservations canceled within 60 days of arrival beginning in 2023.
*Are there any changes to VSN banking guidelines?*

Yes:
Beginning in 2023, unless you can and do opt-out, no additional fee will be assessed for banking.
The deadlines and timeframes for using banked StarOptions will change as follows:



Owner Benefit LevelCurrent StarOptions Banking Deadlines2023 Banking StarOptions Deadlines*Current Timeframe to Use Banked StarOptions*Beginning in 2025 timelines for using banked StarOptionsOwner or SelectJuly 1st of current Use YearJune 30 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearExecutiveOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearPresidentialOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 1.5 Calendar YearsChairman’s ClubDecember 31st of current Use YearOctober 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 2 Calendar Years
Currently, all VSN members are given 2 calendar years to use banked StarOptions. This policy and timeframe will continue for 2 calendar years (for 2023 and 2024 use) and then align with the above new use periods (which depend on an Owner’s benefit level) starting for StarOptions banked in 2025.
Tip: there is an advantage for VSN Owners with when they can use their banked Club Points (vs when they can use their banked StarOptions which is not until 8 months prior to their check-in date)
Are there changes to the timeframes that apply to reserving my VOI(s) or StarOptions for use in the VSN network?

No.
*Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for a VSN Select Cruise?*

Yes. You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for hundreds more different cruise itineraries through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
*Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for stays at 20+ hotels through VSN Select?*

Yes, but unless you can and do opt-out, you will no longer be required to pay an additional fee to take advantage of this benefit beginning in 2023.
You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for a larger selection of hotels.
*ELECTING & MANAGING CLUB POINTS*
Am I able to bank, borrow and transfer Club Points?

Once you elect to receive Club Points, you can bank them into the subsequent use year, borrow them into the immediately preceding year, or transfer their usage to another Owner affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
*Are there fees to bank, borrow, or transfer my Club Points?*

No.
*Can I elect my 2022 usage to receive Club Points?*

No. Enjoy your 2022 usage as you had planned to prior to this announcement.
_Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._

*Can I rent my Club Points to another VSN Member?*

No, you may not rent your Club Points to another VSN Member.
*Can the number of Club Points required for stays at a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort increase or decrease?*

Yes. When a popular date such as a holiday like New Year’s Day falls mid-week on a certain year, the number of Club Points required for that holiday may increase, and the surrounding nights decrease. Therefore, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday may not change, but the individual nightly amounts within the week may be adjusted to account for the higher demand of the holiday. If the number of Club Points for the surrounding nights do not change, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday will increase.
The amount of Club Points required to reserve a particular night of occupancy at a particular property can be increased or decreased from year-to-year to reflect the demand of that night relative to other nights of inventory in the network.
*Can the value of my VOI increase or decrease?*

The value of your VOI is generally based on the relative demand in the system for the inventory you own. Factors include, but may not be limited to, the specific resort, season, and size of accommodation owned.
There is a possibility that the Club Points attributable to your VOI could increase or decrease.
*How can I receive the best value using Club Points?*

There are several ways to receive the best value when using Club Points.
Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require significantly fewer Club Points than weekend stays.
If you are able to travel in a shoulder season, fewer Club Points are generally required. For example, plan a trip to Newport Coast, California, in September after school resumes, rather than in July, the most popular time of year for that destination. Look at the Points Charts. You may be surprised to learn how many nights you can reserve in the off-season by electing to receive Club Points with your peak-season VOI(s).
When you are not traveling with a large party, consider reserving a smaller villa, such as a 1-bedroom villa or suite, or even a guest room, if it will accommodate your travel party.
Keep an eye on Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes — these are discounted 3-, 4-, and 7-night stays booked within 60 days of arrival at select resorts.
Take advantage of Owner benefit level discounts for spontaneous travel. VSN Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 30 days of arrival. VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 60 days of arrival.

*How do I bank Club Points?*

You may bank some or all of your Club Points into a subsequent Use Year if you do so by the applicable deadline within the current Use Year.
Your banking timeframes are based on your Owner benefit level, as follows. Once banked, Club Points may not be banked again, borrowed back, or transferred to another Owner.


Owner Benefit LevelBanking DeadlineUse Banked PointsOwner and Select6 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearExecutive4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearPresidential4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 1.5 Use YearsChairman’s Club2 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 2 Use Years

*How do I borrow Club Points?*

You may borrow Club Points into the immediately preceding year when they are needed to confirm a vacation.
There is no deadline for borrowing. You can borrow whenever you need additional Club Points to confirm a vacation.
If you later cancel the vacation for which you borrowed Club Points, they will expire on their original expiration date.
*How do I elect to receive Club Points?*

It’s easy, soon you will be able to elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs from your Owner website, vistana.com.
Weeks Owners must elect their entire VOI to receive Club Points. You may not elect to receive Club Points for a locked-off portion of your villa.
Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
*How does transferring Club Points work?*

VSN Members can transfer some or all of their Club Points for usage by another Owner who is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, but Club Points that were previously banked, or transferred may not be transferred again (e.g., if usage of 2023 Club Points is transferred to another Owner, usage of those 2023 Club Points cannot be transferred again).
Transferred Club Points retain the Use Year of the Owner who transferred them. For example, if an Owner transferred Club Points to you with a Use Year of January 1 through December 31, 2023, then those transferred Club Points must be used for vacations that take place from January 1 through December 31, 2023.
Transferred Club Points may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred again.
*How many Club Points will I receive if I elect to receive them for my eligible VOI(s)?*

For Weeks VOIs, the number of Club Points you will receive may depend on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and season you own. Peak season weeks generally exchange for more Club Points than shoulder season weeks, for example.
For Points (Home Options) VOIs, such as Westin Flex, the number of Club Points you will receive will be based upon the exchange average of inventory that makes up each Trust.
Weeks VOIs may be elected in their entirety.
Points VOIs may be elected in their entirety, or in increments of 20,000 Home Options, except for Points VOIs at Westin Coral Vista, Westin Sunset Bay, and Westin Nanea, for which the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
*How many Club Points will I receive when I elect?*

Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.
*I am a biennial Owner who would like to elect to receive Club Points. When can I elect?*

You will be able to elect to receive Club Points for the Use Years owned and you may do so as early as 25 months prior to the beginning of that Use Year.
*If I elect to receive Club Points, am I giving up my VOI(s) permanently?*

No. To access the expanded brands and options available in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, VSN Members need to elect to receive Club Points each year for their eligible VOI(s). However, if you would like to reserve a VSN reservation using StarOptions, there is no need to elect to receive Club Points.
Elect to receive Club Points when you would like to reserve a vacation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property, or when you would like to confirm a tour, cruise, hotel stay, safari, or another experience through Abound.
You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but we recommend you look at the value of using Club Points versus StarOptions for these stays. Also, we anticipate there may be limited availability at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts since inventory is made available when Owners at particular resorts elect to receive Club Points.
When you elect to receive Club Points, the transaction cannot be reversed for that VOI(s) that year.
*If I elect to receive Club Points, where can I use them to vacation?*

Club Points may be used to reserve vacations at available resorts and properties in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, including resorts in the expanded network of brands: Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club.
_There are two resorts in VSN: Harborside at Atlantis, and the Westin Riverfront Mountain Resort, where Owners of VOIs at these properties will not have the option to elect to receive Club Points immediately after the launch of this program. Consequently, other Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve vacations at these resorts. We anticipate that this is temporary, and that Owners of VOIs at these two resorts will be able to elect to receive Club Points in the future._
Club Points may also be used for cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation protection, golf, airline miles, car rental, resort credit, vacation homes, and more.
*If I elect to receive Club Points, will I receive the equivalent vacation buying power as my VOI(s) would have received?*

Electing to receive Club Points for your eligible VOI(s) is not a 1:1 trade because the currencies of the two systems are different.
If you believe that you will return to your Home Resort(s) or to another resort that is currently available through VSN, you may not wish to elect to receive Club Points. We recommend Owners look at the number of Club Points you will receive, and the number of Club Points required for the vacations you would like to confirm prior to making this decision.
Similarly, the number of Club Points required for stays depends on where and when you plan to travel. Peak season dates in larger villas will require more Club Points, and shoulder season travel in smaller villas will require fewer Club Points. Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require fewer Club Points than weekend stays.

*If I want to vacation at my Home Resort(s), should I elect to receive Club Points?*

If you are certain you want to visit your Home Resort(s), it may be better to reserve using your Home Options or your week as you always have, rather than electing to receive Club Points. We recommend you understand the Club Points Charts prior to electing in order to understand the best value for your desired vacations.
While Club Points may be used to reserve Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, the number of nights you can confirm using Club Points versus using your existing VOI(s) may differ based on the different currencies. We recommend you look at the Club Points Charts prior to making your decision. _Points charts coming soon._
Additionally, while you enjoy a priority reservation window when booking your Home Resort(s), inventory from your Home Resort may be limited in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ because it will depend on whether Home Resort Owners elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) in a given year.
*What are Club Points?*

Club Points are a flexible vacation currency which can be used to reserve vacations throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program including:
Reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and Marriott Vacation Club Pulse® properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts.
We anticipate that availability of Sheraton and Westin Vacation Club inventory through Abound will be limited because it becomes available in the Abound network when a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs.
Reservations at these resorts may be made for any check-in date, villa size, and number of nights, based on availability.

Cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation homes, safaris, and more. Club Points can also be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Member of Abound.

*When I don't reserve my Home Resort during the Home Resort preference period, my VOI(s) can be used as StarOptions within the VSN float window. Will I be able to use them as Club Points instead?*

No, for years when you want to use Club Points, you must take action by electing to receive Club Points prior to the applicable deadline. Election does not happen automatically.
*When is the deadline to elect to receive Club Points?*

For the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members at all benefit levels will have until December 31, 2022 to elect to receive Club Points for their eligible VOIs.
For future Use Years, the deadlines will be as follows:
Owner, Select, and Executive benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by September 30 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is September 30, 2023.
Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by October 31 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is October 31, 2023.
You may elect to receive Club Points as early as 25 months prior to your Use Year and begin using Club Points to confirm the following years’ vacations or you may borrow them to confirm a vacation in the preceding year. For example, you could elect to receive Club Points for your 2026 Use Year as early as December 1, 2023, for use between January 1, 2026 (by borrowing) through December 31, 2026, or even later, if you bank your Club Points.

*Why should I elect to receive Club Points?*

You may decide to elect to receive Club Points when planning a vacation at more than 70 Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, including destinations in Europe, Asia, the Caribbean, and Central America, and at Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property locations in San Francisco, South Beach, New York, Washington D.C., or San Diego.
Club Points may also be used to confirm thousands of other experiences, including:
Hundreds of cruise itineraries worldwide
Dozens of guided tours to destinations like Italy, China, Ireland, Machu Picchu, the Galapagos, and Africa
Stays at 100+ hotels
Culinary tours
Car rental, travel protection, golf certificates, and frequent flyer miles
VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and above can reserve luxury private homes through Villas of Distinction and premier events.

*CLUB POINTS RESERVATIONS & WAITLIST*
Internal waitlist for VSN Members:

VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels may use their StarOptions to place a VSN waitlist request if the in-network reservation they desire is not immediately available to confirm.
VSN Members at any Owner benefit level who elect to receive Club Points may use them to place an internal waitlist request for reservations at resorts and properties throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations network if the vacation you desire is not immediately available to reserve.
Waitlist timeframes using Club Points are as follows:

Owner Benefit Level12 Months prior to arrival – Friday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, and Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail12 Months prior to arrival – following Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
Vacations at resorts in the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) including Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club Villa Resorts10 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, VSN resorts and the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail6 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
Vacations at Luxury Properties, other than the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail*Owner and Select benefit level Owner7 or more consecutive nights7 or more consecutive nightsAny Number of NightsAny number of NightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s Club benefit level OwnersAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of Nights

*What are Club Points in a holding account?*

When you cancel a reservation made using Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or a Luxury Property from 60 days to 1 day prior to arrival, or for one of the other reasons above, they are returned in a holding account.
Club Points in a holding account may be used to confirm another reservation only within 60 days of arrival.
They can be used for reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resorts through Abound by Marriott Vacations™ within 60 days of check-in.
They can be used to confirm a Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes reservation.
They can be used to reserve select vacations and experiences including cruises, group tours, and more.
Club Points from a holding account must be used by the end of the Use Year and may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Owner.
*What are the cancellation policies for Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury Property?*

Vacation Canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in60 days to 1 day prior to check-inAll Owner Benefit LevelsClub Points are returned unrestricted.Club Points are returned in a holding account.VSN Members who use a 20% Points premium in order to confirm 13 months prior to check inPoints premium is returned in a holding account. Other Club Points are returned unrestricted.Points premium is forfeited. Other Club Points are returned in a holding account.Owner and Select benefit level VSN Members who reserve a vacation for 7 or more nights before the 10-month window, and then modify the reservation to less than 7-nights once they are within the 10-month windowClub Points attributable to the difference in the number of nights are returned in a holding account.

*What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*

Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.
Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve 7 or more consecutive nights 12-months prior to arrival; Owners at the Executive benefit level and higher may reserve any number of nights as early as 12-months prior to arrival.
Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve any number of nights beginning 10 months prior to arrival.

Owner Benefit Level12 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays following when the 12 Month inventory is available for Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner and Select7 or more nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort.

Availability starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by VSN members electing to receive Club Points.
*When can I book a reservation using Club Points?*

When you use Club Points for a reservation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or at a Luxury Property, there are four booking windows, as follows:

Owner Benefit Level13 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)12 Months prior to arrival (Fridays)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)6 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property with payment of a 20% Points premium7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Select7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property (without the Points premium)7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Executive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury PropertyPlace waitlist request for any number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or propertyNot a reservation or waitlist windowPlace waitlist request for a Luxury Property*
* There is a 3 night minimum stay requirement at The Ritz-Carlton Club, St. Thomas, and the 6 month reservation window for Owner and Select benefit levels does not apply to The Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail, for which the normal reservation windows will apply.

If the reservation you want to confirm is not immediately available, you may place a waitlist request as outlined above. The following waitlist guidelines apply:
Waitlist requests are fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis and may be capped.
You may request more than one check-in date and location. The number of Club Points required for the most expensive vacation of all of those requested will be placed in a pending status while you remain on the waitlist.
You may determine the length of time you would like to remain on the waitlist — up to 24 hours prior to arrival.
If the request is not confirmed or is canceled, the Club Points that were placed in a pending status will be released and made available for use as if no waitlist request had been made.
The normal cancellation policy applies for reservations confirmed by the waitlist: Reservations canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in are returned to an Owner’s account, unrestricted. Reservations canceled from 60 days to 1 day prior to check-in are returned in a holding account.
Waitlist timeframes are based on Owner benefit level and are set forth in the chart above.

*CRUISES, HOTELS, AND MORE*
*Do I have to elect to receive Club Points for my eligible VOIs in order to access the additional travel offerings?*

Yes, but only for those travel offerings obtained through Abound by Marriott Vacations™. There are Owner Cruises and hotel stays available through your membership in VSN which can be confirmed using your StarOptions.
*How do I book these additional travel offerings?*

Log in to the Owner website to explore the additional travel offerings that are available. Once you are ready to make a reservation, contact Owner Services.
*What additional travel experiences may I get through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*

Abound by Marriott Vacations™ allows you to enjoy exceptional travel opportunities and one-of-a-kind adventures including cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, golf, and outdoor adventures such as river rafting. You can also use your Club Points to enhance a resort vacation, such as with car rental, airline frequent flyer miles, resort credit, golf instruction, local activities, and more. Learn more about these opportunities here.
*MARRIOTT BONVOY*
*Are the Marriott Bonvoy conversion deadlines changing?*

Yes, the deadline to convert your VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points is changing as follows beginning in 2023:
Members of VSN Marriott Bonvoy Conversion Deadlines will be adjusted beginning in 2023 as follows:

Owner Benefit LevelCurrent Deadline to Convert to Bonvoy Points2023 Deadline to ConvertFrequencyOwner and Select benefit levelsMarch 31 of Current Use YearJune 30 of the Current Use YearNon-consecutive Use YearsExecutive benefit levelJuly 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use YearPresidential benefit levelOctober 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonusChairman’s Club benefit levelsOctober 1st of Current Use YearOctober 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonus
Additionally, the expiration date of Marriott Bonvoy points is changing from 6 years (regardless of activity) to 24 months without activity in their account. This means that as long as a VSN Member has any activity in their Marriott Bonvoy account within 24 months, the Bonvoy Points will not expire.
As a VSN Member, I currently receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite membership upgrade. Will this change through the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations?

Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:

Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level

Each year, your Owner benefit level will be reviewed, and the corresponding Marriott Bonvoy Elite level will be renewed. Owners will have an opportunity to designate one person who is named on the ownership to receive the upgrade.
*Will the expiration period for Marriott Bonvoy points change?*

Marriott Bonvoy points received from conversion of VSN VOIs will align with Abound by Marriott Vacations™ rules and will not expire unless there is no Marriott Bonvoy booking activity within a rolling two-year period. Qualifying activity can include payment of maintenance fees and Club Dues on a Marriott Bonvoy charge card. Or charging incidentals to your villa when you stay at a resort in the network and your Marriott Bonvoy account is attached to your reservation. Learn more about what constitutes a qualifying activity on Marriott.com.
Existing Bonvoy points issued to VSE Owners would be tracked and continue to expire based on the 6-year expiration rule currently in place.
*INTERVAL INTERNATIONAL*
*I can already use my VOI(s) to request an Interval International exchange. Can I now also use Club Points for an Interval International exchange?*

Beginning in 2023, you will have two ways to exchange with Interval International: Using your weeks-based or Points-based VOI(s) or using Club Points.
Please be aware that when using Club Points with Interval, you may _only place an External Exchange request for resorts that are not affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™_. This is because you have access to the Abound internal exchange network that allows you to reserve a resort in the Abound network using Club Points, so there is not a requirement to exchange through Interval.
*Once I’ve elected to receive Club Points, can I exchange them through Interval International?*

Yes, beginning in January, 2023. However, Owners may not use Club Points to place an Internal Exchange to another resort in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ network. Club Points may only be used for External Exchange requests through Interval.
This is because Club Points may be used to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, or Westin Vacation Club resorts directly through the Abound reservation system, and there is no need to place an exchange request through Interval.
Once you have determined your desired external resort(s) or destination, size of accommodation, and the time of year you would like to travel (based on Interval’s Travel Demand Index), the following chart will tell you how many Club Points are required for a 7-night stay.
VSN Members may log in to their membership account at intervalworld.com as of January 2023 to search for availability or place a pending request using Club Points. Since Club Points may be used for External Exchanges, an External Exchange fee will need to be paid by the Member for each week requested.

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Number of Club Points Required for a 7-Night Stay Based on Size of Accommodation:TRAVEL DEMAND INDEX (TDI)*STUDIO1 BR2 BR3 BR140-150 (Peak)2,250>3,0004,5006,000115-135 (High)1,7502,7504,0005,00090-110 (Medium)1,5002,2503,0004,00050-85 (Low)1,0001,5002,2503,000
* As of August 9, 2022

*Will I continue to pay the Interval International internal exchange fee of $154?*

Separate internal exchange fees (requests to exclusively go to other Vistana and Marriott Vacation Club resorts) through Interval International will not be charged if you pay annual Club Dues for Abound usage.
However, if you elect to receive Club Points, they may not currently be used for an Interval Exchange. When they may be used for an Interval Exchange, Club Dues are restricted to external exchanges only and may not be used for an internal exchange to a resort in Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
*FEES, DUES AND LOANS*
How will my VSN Membership Fees change through the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™?

Through this affiliation, the VSN annual network membership fee and transaction fees, previously paid a la carte, are being replaced with one fee called Club Dues. This consolidated fee structure is in lieu of separate usage fees and is based on your Owner benefit level. The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for Members of the VSN). VSN members who opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees. These Club Dues will either be billed as a separate line item on your maintenance fee bill or mailed separately depending on the VOIs owned.
*I am a biennial Owner. How often will I be billed Club Dues for Abound usage?*

You will be billed the full Club Dues annually, since you can use any banked StarOptions, elected Club Points; deposits with Interval, or Marriott Bonvoy points every year.
*I own VOIs enrolled in both VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™. Will I be assessed multiple Club Dues?*

As long as you are the primary Owner on all of your contracts, the total number of Club Points attributable to those VOIs across the brands will result in one Owner benefit level. Your single Club Dues will be based on that Owner benefit level.
However, it is possible that some contracts cannot be grouped together. This could result in an additional Club Dues assessment depending on how an Owner has taken title of different contracts.
Any VOIs that are not enrolled in VSN and any Marriott Vacation Club week that is not enrolled in Abound are not factored into your Club Dues.
*If I do not pay my Club Dues, what are my reservation options?*

VSN Members that have voluntary enrollment associated with their VOI(s) who do not pay annual Club Dues will be deemed to have opted out and become unenrolled in VSN and unaffiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.  These Owners will then only have Home Resort usage or the ability to exchange through an affiliated exchange provider (using an individual exchange provider account subject to payment of a membership fee).
VSN Members that have mandatory enrollment associated with their VOI(s) will not be unenrolled from VSN but not paying full Club Dues will be deemed an opt-out of the Abound exchange program; however, if delinquent in the payment of VSN Membership Fees and/or separate transactional fees, all VSN benefits and Home Resort usage rights may be suspended.
VSN Members whose Owner benefit levels were elevated due to the grandfathering policy at the time of the affiliation will lose that elevated Owner benefit level if they are unenrolled from VSN and, in the event of reenrollment, will receive an Owner benefit level based on the current criteria and will no longer be eligible to enjoy the benefits of the grandfathering policy.
VSN Members who are unenrolled from VSN, who opt-out, or who do not pay their Club Dues, will no longer have the option to elect to receive Club Points and may be subject to additional fees to reenroll in VSN or opt-in and regain the option of electing to receive Club Points. Additionally, Owners who are unenrolled from VSN will lose all VSN benefits including the ability to reserve an in-network reservation with StarOptions, complete any transaction using StarOptions (such as StarOptions Banking or Borrowing, VSN Select, Resort Credits, travel insurance), their Interval International corporate membership and the ability to assign/deposit their VOI(s) under that membership, or convert to Marriott Bonvoy points.
*In the past, I paid a VSN membership fee. Will I still be paying these annual fees?*

No. For Abound usage, the VSN network membership fees will be replaced with annual Club Dues beginning in 2023. Effective 2023, the VSN membership fee will be between $170 and $235.
*VSN has a fee of $50 to cancel reservations within 60–7 days before arrival and of $75 for less than 7 days before arrival. Will that be eliminated?*

Yes. Cancellation fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.
*What is my annual Club Dues amount?*

Your annual Club Dues amount is determined by your Owner benefit level;
The 2023 Club Dues are:
Owner and Select: $230
Executive and Presidential: $270
Chairman’s Club: $295

_Annual Club Dues amounts are subject to change._
*What is the value of Club Dues versus my previous VSN membership and a la carte fees?*

Depending on the annual usage options you choose and the type of vacations you reserve, Club Dues may be more or less than the VSN network membership fees plus the a la carte fees you paid in the past. Here is the consolidated chart for your reference.

Transaction2023 Fees that will be eliminated with AboundVSN Network Membership Fee$170 to $235Additional Housekeeping Fees$38 to $105 per stayConvert to Marriott Bonvoy Points$164Banking StarOptions$109VSN Select$145Interval International Membership$99Internal Exchange with Interval*$154 per weekCancellation Fee$50 to $75Guest Fee for VSN Reservations$59
* External exchange fees, which were $209 per week in 2022, will not be eliminated. Internal Exchanges are requests to use your VOI(s) exclusively to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort in the Interval International external exchange network. Note that after electing to receive Club Points, they may not be used to place an Internal Exchange request with Interval. Note that Club Points may not be used to place an External exchange request (to resorts outside of the Abound by Marriott Vacations network) until 2023. If you wish to place an external exchange request with Interval in 2022, you must use your 2022 VOIs.

Here is one example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:

Example: 1 VOI OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$170-0-Club Dues for Owner/Select benefit level Owners-0-$230*Convert small side of lock-off to Bonvoy points$164-0-Internal Exchange using large side of lock-off$154-0-Total$488$230 (Savings $258)
* 2023 Club Dues for the Owner/Select benefit levels

*What separate VSN fees will no longer be charged when Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out?*

When Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out, the following VSN fees will be eliminated:
VSN membership (which for 2023 is between $170 and $235, currently billed with your maintenance fees)
Additional housekeeping fees associated with multiple reservations (over and above the one housekeeping fee included in your maintenance fee)
Banking StarOptions
Reservation cancellations and rebooking fees
Interval International membership
Internal Exchanges
Converting to Marriott Bonvoy points
Electing, banking, borrowing, or transferring Club Points

The a la carte transactional fees will continue through 2022 and be replaced by Club Dues beginning in 2023 (unless a VSN member can and has chosen to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of Abound, in which case that VSN member will be responsible for continuing to pay all of the separate VSN transactional fees).
*When will I receive my first bill for Club Dues?*

Club Dues will be billed in 2022 for your 2023 usage.
*Why aren’t Club Dues the same for all Owner benefit levels?*

Those with a higher Owner benefit level own more and have more vacation-related transactions throughout the year. Despite the slightly higher Club Dues, VSN Members at the higher benefit levels may still potentially save money by paying full Club Dues rather than paying a la carte fees.
Here is an example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:

Example: 3 VOIs OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$235-0-Club Dues for Executive benefit level Owners-0-$270*Convert 1st VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points$164-0-Pay third-party guest fee of 2nd VOI lock-off$59-0-Internal Exchange II of 2nd VOI (other part of lock-off)$154-0-Occupy 3rd Interest-0--0-Total$612$270 (Savings $342)
* 2023 Club Dues for the Executive/Presidential benefit levels

*Will annual Club Dues for Abound usage cover housekeeping fees for stays that exceed the one housekeeping allotment in my annual maintenance fees?*

Yes, for reservations made on or after January 1, 2023.
*Will I be required to pay Club Dues even if I do not elect to receive Club Points?*

Yes. Club Dues are replacing the previous VSN network membership fee and the a la carte fees for reservations and transactions such as canceling a reservation and converting to Marriott Bonvoy points.
In many cases, this will result in savings for VSN Members.
*Will the third-party guest fee of $59 be eliminated?*

Yes, third-party guest fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.

Adding PDF Attachments;


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## jabberwocky

Not happy with the change in banking. That is huge. Probably the number one feature we used.

Think they would relent as they did with the guest fees if there is enough of a pushback?


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## dioxide45

_Please be aware that when using Club Points with Interval, you may only place an External Exchange request for resorts that are not affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™. This is because you have access to the Abound internal exchange network that allows you to reserve a resort in the Abound network using Club Points, so there is not a requirement to exchange through Interval._
This one may impact Marriott owners using Club Points too. Looks like you won't be able to exchange into any Marriott or Vistana property with Club Points.


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## kozykritter

I managed a less-pretty pdf version of all the FAQs so you can have something to take with you or share with a friend.


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> _Please be aware that when using Club Points with Interval, you may only place an External Exchange request for resorts that are not affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™. This is because you have access to the Abound internal exchange network that allows you to reserve a resort in the Abound network using Club Points, so there is not a requirement to exchange through Interval._
> This one may impact Marriott owners using Club Points too. Looks like you won't be able to exchange into any Marriott or Vistana property with Club Points.


Yes, it would seem to add Vistana properties to the current Marriott prohibition for anyone using MVC/Club points. But at least now you can book both through II with your Vistana ownership for no exchange fee starting 2023...yeah!

Separate internal exchange fees (requests to exclusively go to other Vistana and Marriott Vacation Club resorts) through Interval International will not be charged if you pay annual Club Dues for Abound usage.


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## JimT

Can anyone access the "Learn more about becoming an Enrolled Owner" from FAQ (https://www.vistana.com/help-center#/faqs): 

Or, Owners can learn more about becoming an Enrolled Owner here. (link is to https://www.vistana.com/timeshare/mvco/destinationProgram/introduction but comes up as page is on vacation)
Thanks!


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## dioxide45

There are also a lot more video tutorials for Vistana owners.
Clearly some of this was intended to be relevant when we had a more functioning system. One of the videos indicates you can determine your Club Point election value on the Owner Dashboard, but I can't find it.

Then there is this from a video;


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## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> Not happy with the change in banking. That is huge. Probably the number one feature we used.
> 
> Think they would relent as they did with the guest fees if there is enough of a pushback?



Yes, anyone with 10K Points or less will only have 1 year to use banked Staroptions (after 2025), while owners with 10K-15K points will have 18 months. 

They are clearly aware this is a sensitive issue since they did not make the change immediate like everything else.

And all the Elite levels lose 1-2 months on the banking deadline:
3-Star (~Executive) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
4-Star (~Presidential) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
5-Star (~Chairman) will be Oct 31 instead of Dec 31


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## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> Yes, anyone with 10K Points or less will only have 1 year to use banked Staroptions (after 2025), while owners with 10K-15K points will have 18 months.
> 
> They are clearly aware this is a sensitive issue since they did not make the change immediate like everything else.
> 
> And all the Elite levels lose 1-2 months on the banking deadline:
> 3-Star (~Executive) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
> 4-Star (~Presidential) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
> 5-Star (~Chairman) will be Oct 31 instead of Dec 31


The banking deadline was probably the biggest feature we used.

I guess I will have to accelerate my plans to take over my parents TS weeks (we are in the process of adding my name to their, although it will make more sense now just to move it into that of me and my spouse.)

currently I’m sitting at 9100 annualized points, so just below presidential. If I add their weeks I think I’ll hit around 13,000 for presidential. Is it then worth dropping an extra $20k for a WFlex contract to get me over the 15k point mark?


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Is it then worth dropping an extra $20k for a WFlex contract to get me over the 15k point mark?


It may be, but we really don't know how that will work. I suspect they will always have reaquired Flex contracts they need to resell, but you might have to push to buy one as all the sales centers will be moving to selling Abound Club Points if they haven't already. If they figure out a way to somehow move that reaquired Flex into the trust (which I don't think they will), then you may be out of luck and have to buy 2K trust points.


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## VacationForever

I don't like this one:

*Can the value of my VOI increase or decrease?*

The value of your VOI is generally based on the relative demand in the system for the inventory you own. Factors include, but may not be limited to, the specific resort, season, and size of accommodation owned.
There is a possibility that the Club Points attributable to your VOI could increase or decrease.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> It may be, but we really don't know how that will work. I suspect they will always have reaquired Flex contracts they need to resell, but you might have to push to buy one as all the sales centers will be moving to selling Abound Club Points if they haven't already. If they figure out a way to somehow move that reaquired Flex into the trust (which I don't think they will), then you may be out of luck and have to buy 2K trust points.


Buying 2k trust points might be cheaper (14 k resale).   I wonder if you would have to pay an extra club fee if you own in both sides?  2000 is a useless amount unless I used it to add on a few days to a SO reservation - but availability will be a problem.


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## kozykritter

Just one Club fee if you own both systems and don't opt out of the combined fee...

"Many VSN Members will enjoy savings from paying one annual Club Dues fee (based on their new Owner benefit level) rather than paying both Club Dues with Marriott Vacation Club and a VSN fee."


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## tamu_bu

A lot to digest for sure. I like the new club dues. Whether I save money or not I just like the fact that there's not a fee for any and every single transaction.

I can't help but feel resorts will increase maintenance fees to cover housekeeping. The payment is included in the club fee but I don't see it leaving MVC and trickling down. Resorts will end up with lost revenue.


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## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> Is it then worth dropping an extra $20k for a WFlex contract to get me over the 15k point mark?



IMO, No - the current differences between Presidential and Chairman are minimal (basically those extra 6 months for banking). Otherwise there is nothing additional meaningful (e.g. early checkin, late checkout) like we have in VSN. Here is a side-by-side comparison.

Is it worth paying ~$15K so that once every few years you get an extra 6 months to use banked points (and Staroptions)?


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## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> I wonder if you would have to pay an extra club fee if you own in both sides?



Not according to the FAQs - ownership level and club dues are based on combined number of club points.  That's assuming you don't opt out.


----------



## VacationForever

I think the question is for an existing Abound owner, whether there is an additional VSN club dues when you acquire mandatory resale weeks in the future.


----------



## kozykritter

For me personally, the give and take of the changes tilts heavily to the give side based upon what I own and how I travel. I'll be savings lots of money through fees and leveraging sweet spots in Abound, VSN and II to use the least ownership to get the most travel...it helps being mostly a low or shoulder season traveler. I'm chuffed....bring it on already!!


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> Buying 2k trust points might be cheaper (14 k resale).   I wonder if you would have to pay an extra club fee if you own in both sides?  2000 is a useless amount unless I used it to add on a few days to a SO reservation - but availability will be a problem.



My VSN fees get billed to my WKV weeks. But if I elect to have them enrolled then I suspect I will still have to pay that fee via HRA, which I don't even have the option to enroll?


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> I think the question is for an existing Abound owner, whether there is an additional VSN club dues when you acquire mandatory resale weeks in the future.


Those future resales would still pay the combined VSN fee (same rate as Abound Club fee but they call it something else) so would still be one fee unless they opt out of the combined fee on the VSN side and just pay the standard $170. In that case they would have to pay the MVC combined club fee as well.  It's all in the details of the FAQ, though you have to piece it together.


----------



## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> Those future resales would still pay the combined VSN fee (same rate as Abound Club fee but they call it something else) so would still be one fee unless they opt out of the combined fee on the VSN side and just pay the standard $170.  It's all in the details of the FAQ.


Thank you!  I didn't get that far in the FAQ as my brain shutdown after a page of reading.


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> IMO, No - the current differences between Presidential and Chairman are minimal (basically those extra 6 months for banking). Otherwise there is nothing additional meaningful (e.g. early checkin, late checkout) like we have in VSN. Here is a side-by-side comparison.
> 
> Is it worth paying ~$15K so that once every few years you get an extra 6 months to use banked points (and Staroptions)?
> 
> 
> View attachment 63306


Even the 1.5 years vs 2 years is a big difference. With kids in school we look at having to take a large chunk of our vacation in July/August. 1.5 years means we would have to use up the banked points by June 30 of the following year. Not much difference there.


----------



## tamu_bu

kozykritter said:


> ...I'm chuffed....bring it on already!!


If you're chuffed, you're a Brit. Am I right?


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> Even the 1.5 years vs 2 years is a big difference. With kids in school we look at having to take a large chunk of our vacation in July/August. 1.5 years means we would have to use up the banked points by June 30 of the following year. Not much difference there.




I do agree it makes a difference. But is it worth paying $15K for that (thus rewarding them for taking away a benefit you already had)?


----------



## kozykritter

tamu_bu said:


> If you're chuffed, you're a Brit. Am I right?


Good catch! But I'm not.   

I spend the first 18 months of the pandemic stranded in NZ and ended up with a great circle of Brits, Aussies and Kiwis as friends so my head is full of all kinds of those words and expressions...I like it.


----------



## RunCat

jabberwocky said:


> Not happy with the change in banking. That is huge. Probably the number one feature we used.
> 
> Think they would relent as they did with the guest fees if there is enough of a pushback?



Back when I was selling at Sheraton Mtn Vista,  you were not able to bank points into the future and it was considered a feature.  I understand why people like it. But the past two years have highlighted its disadvantages.


----------



## capjak

"Can anyone access the "Learn more about becoming an Enrolled Owner" from FAQ (https://www.vistana.com/help-center#/faqs): 

Or, Owners can learn more about becoming an Enrolled Owner here. (link is to https://www.vistana.com/timeshare/mvco/destinationProgram/introduction but comes up as page is on vacation)"

I can not access it either, kind of an important page for a lot of us, including a page that states how many club points my ownership is worth.

Seems like these would 2 main FAQs to have on the website........


----------



## SVOForever

SOMEONE WANNA CONFIRM MY THOUGHTS??  PLEASE??  Looking ahead to 2023 only, I own 2 SVV Mandatory Resales.  For 2023 I want to / plan to exchange to visit Harborside to go with other family who own directly at Harborside.  I understand that in 2023, Harborside will not be in ABOUND.  I understand that my best choice will be to "Opt Out" of ABOUND and continue to work within VSN, which I am enrolled in, and pay the $165 or so fee for my first ownership, and $65 or whatever it is for the 2nd ownership, as part of my yearly MF's.  I know finding availability may be tough but we'll ignore that for now.  

My questions are:
1.  They make tons of references to bundled Club fees and a la carte fees.  If I want to opt out both of my ownerships in 2023, do I simply opt out entirely from the Club fee?  I pay that, or the VSN fee, but not both?

2.  If #1 is correct, I can expect to pay an a la carte VSN fee just like before?  Literally, nothing will change?  I may get a housekeeping fee if I take my 2 ownerships and book it as 3 stays, I may pay a cancel fee if canceled within 60 days, and if I put a family member as the guest on one of the rooms, I would pay the $59 fee?

3.  In 2023, what owner benefit would I get?  For discussion, lets say if I opt in I would have 5,000 Club Points.  But since I opt out to VSN only, would I 
---- Get NOTHING because I opted out of Club Points for 2023, and hence no Bonvoy Status?
---- Get "OWNER" for some reason I can't rationally figure out - maybe I'm technically an OWNER even though I opted out and hence get Gold Elite Bonvoy?
---- Since my Club Points will add up to be 5000, even though I opt out, I get "SELECT" and get Platinum Elite?  

2024 seems super clear as I will choose to Opt In then ... I'll bundle my fee, get SELECT level status and benefits, etc.

THANKS!


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Actually by April 30 with the Oct 31 deadline.
> 
> I do agree it makes a difference, especially with pulling the deadlines back. But is it worth paying $15K for that (thus rewarding them for taking away a benefit you already had)?


I think the 1.5 years is based on the use year end date, not the banking deadline.


----------



## DanCali

RunCat said:


> Back when I was selling at Sheraton Mtn Vista,  you were not able to bank points into the future and it was considered a feature.  I understand why people like it. But the past two years have highlighted its disadvantages.



Why disadvantages? During the height of the pandemic, I could bank any unused Staroptions I had from canceled reservations up to December 31, 2020. And can still use any of those I have left till then end of this year. That was a huge feature to have...


----------



## dioxide45

--deleted--


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> I think the 1.5 years is based on the use year end date, not the banking deadline.




That's probably correct - I don't have any banked points to check, but it makes more sense. I'll fix the post above.


----------



## DanCali

deleted


----------



## Jayco29D

kozykritter said:


> Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the *opportunity* to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.
> 
> An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?





DanCali said:


> Late checkout is 12pm. Seems minor, but if you have a flight at 4pm and can stay in the room 2 extra hours it can make the difference of an extra 1/2 day at the beach... Otherwise we typically just have breakfast and leave. FWIW there is also 2pm early checkin, which is much less reliable during peak times. Both of those are (were?) just for 5-Star.
> 
> Late checkout is not listed as a benefit and therefore we have to assume it's gone. It never existed in MVC and everything else now seems aligned, with some legacy SVN things like banking dates and banked SOs expiration worse than they were.
> 
> I suspect the 1-year banking will be a deal breaker for many who might be eligible to enroll but not excited about the program.
> 
> View attachment 63270



This is very negative to lose the 2 year usage period for banked SOs. This will make it hard to use SOs at all when Abound starts. Between Abound members being able to book at 12 months (vs being only able to book at 8 months with SOs) and then only having 1 year to use SOs, this seems like a pretty big dealbreaker for VSN/SOs.

Just to clarify, does this mean if the banking deadline is June 30, you have until June 30 in the following year to use banked SOs? Or is it for the entire next calendar year?


----------



## cubigbird

jabberwocky said:


> Not happy with the change in banking. That is huge. Probably the number one feature we used.
> 
> Think they would relent as they did with the guest fees if there is enough of a pushback?



Same here.  My WLR is a fixed event week and we have historically had friends and family join us using the studio side of the lockoff.  If they cancel on us we have been able to modify the reservation and bank the options late as a 5 star elite.  That will be no longer and is very frustrating.  Any way we can raise voices like we did on that home resort guest fee that VSE originally tried to charge?


----------



## DanCali

Jayco29D said:


> This is very negative to lose the 2 year usage period for banked SOs. This will make it hard to use SOs at all when Abound starts. Between Abound members being able to book at 12 months (vs being only able to book at 8 months with SOs) and then only having 1 year to use SOs, this seems like a pretty big dealbreaker for VSN/SOs.
> 
> Just to clarify, does this mean if the banking deadline is June 30, you have until June 30 in the following year to use banked SOs? Or is it for the entire next calendar year?



The entire calendar year


----------



## kozykritter

The Vistana website Abound pages makes it official about mandatory resales in VSN before August 9th being Abound eligible ... anyone that made a purchase to requalify their resale based upon being told they were not eligible for Abound definitely has a bone to pick with their sales people! And maybe a call to make to their lawyer 

"Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or *reseller* and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations"


----------



## Jayco29D

kozykritter said:


> The Vistana website Abound pages makes it official about mandatory resales in VSN before August 9th being Abound eligible ... anyone that made a purchase to requalify their resale based upon being told they were not eligible for Abound definitely has a bone to pick with their sales people! And maybe a call to make to their lawyer
> 
> "Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or *reseller* and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations"



The salespeople are always lying to make sales. Why would anyone have more of a bone to pick about this lie vs any other lie?


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> It may be, but we really don't know how that will work. I suspect they will always have reaquired Flex contracts they need to resell, but you might have to push to buy one as all the sales centers will be moving to selling Abound Club Points if they haven't already. If they figure out a way to somehow move that reaquired Flex into the trust (which I don't think they will), then you may be out of luck and have to buy 2K trust points.


SBP and Orlando are still selling Sheraton flex. I was just at SBP and that is what they offered me instead of club points.


----------



## timsi

*"What separate VSN fees will no longer be charged when Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out?*

When Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out, the following VSN fees will be eliminated:
Additional housekeeping fees associated with multiple reservations (over and above the one housekeeping fee included in your maintenance fee)"



The resorts will likely lose money since the additional housekeeping costs will probably to be incorporated in the annual budget of the resort while the higher annual network fees go to Marriott. 
Some people have the same concern about the units controlled by MVC and rented through Marriott.com and other channels. Those units usually receive daily housekeeping (still true post-pandemic?), and the costs are probably amalgamated with the resort housekeeping costs. If true, in the last few years this has grown in significance since MVC has increased the rental revenue and now controls a large number of units.


----------



## kozykritter

Jayco29D said:


> The salespeople are always lying to make sales. Why would anyone have more of a bone to pick about this lie vs any other lie?


ask someone that bought because it that question.


----------



## Jayco29D

kozykritter said:


> ask someone that bought because it that question.



I understand that someone who bought based on this lie would be upset, of course. I was in escrow to buy a contract based on this lie. I thank our lucky stars that we backed out just in time since now it looks like we will get free enrollment of our mandatory resale week.

I knew it could be a lie, just like anything else a timeshare salesperson tells me could be a lie. Had I gone through with the purchase, I still would have been okay with it since I was buying points anyway.

I am just saying people buy based on many lies. I have been told so many lies including this one. Unless we can sue Marriott for every lie, why would this lie be any different from a legal standpoint?

So that is my key question. How is this lie any different than others lies from a legal standpoint?


----------



## tamu_bu

SVOForever said:


> I understand that in 2023, Harborside will not be in ABOUND. I understand that my best choice will be to "Opt Out" of ABOUND and continue to work within VSN, which I am enrolled in, and pay the $165 or so fee for my first ownership, and $65 or whatever it is for the 2nd ownership, as part of my yearly MF's


I don't believe you have to opt out of abound to participate in SO's. You can pay the abound consolidated fee and still elect: 1. Home resort use at 12 months, 2. SO's and trade within the Vistana resorts at 8 months.

You're ownership usage doesn't change until you elect to convert your current ownership into VC points (an annual option). Then you can access the Marriott layer of resorts. But you can be part of abound and continue to run your vacation as you have in the past assuming you had the Vistana ownership in record as of 8/8. You won't be required to convert your ownership to club points, it's just a 3rd option.


----------



## cubigbird

Jayco29D said:


> I understand that someone who bought based on this lie would be upset, of course. I was in escrow to buy a contract based on this lie. I thank our lucky stars that we backed out just in time since now it looks like we will get free enrollment of our mandatory resale week.
> 
> I knew it could be a lie, just like anything else a timeshare salesperson tells me could be a lie. Had I gone through with the purchase, I still would have been okay with it since I was buying points anyway.
> 
> I am just saying people buy based on many lies. I have been told so many lies including this one. Unless we can sue Marriott for every lie, why would this lie be any different from a legal standpoint?



Supposedly timeshare sales are required to be licensed as real estate agents.  You would think there would be accountability and regulations on the misrepresentations and licenses should be at risk.


----------



## Jayco29D

In the Vistana FAQs, unless I missed it, I did not see any mention of booking windows for SOs. It was 8 months before. Is it still 8 months?


----------



## Jayco29D

cubigbird said:


> Supposedly timeshare sales are required to be licensed as real estate agents.  You would think there would be accountability and regulations on the misrepresentations and licenses should be at risk.



I agree there should be accountability and regulations regarding telling the truth. Overall, I could see this becoming a class action lawsuit regarding all their lies and holding Marriott accountable for better training to get their salespeople to tell the truth. I suspect they could sell just as much, if not more, if they told the truth and sold Abound based on its benefits.

A big lie they are always telling me is to move up to Chairman’s level before Mariott changes the points requirement. This may be true eventually but they are always saying it is coming and to hurry up and buy so I can get grandfathered in at 15K points.


----------



## Red elephant

Jayco29D said:


> In the Vistana FAQs, unless I missed it, I did not see any mention of booking windows for SOs. It was 8 months before. Is it still 8 months?


Yes I believe so.


----------



## Jayco29D

Red elephant said:


> Yes I believe so.



So this sounds like a big disadvantage to using SOs vs converting to Club Points. With Club Points, you can book at 12 months vs 8 months with SOs. In 2025, you only get 12 months to use banked SOs unless you are higher level with Abound. So another big disadvantage to VSN/SOs. While VSN/SOs will still exist, it will be a lot less attractive to future resale buyers. 

The good news is all mandatory resale owners will be enrolled for free if purchased prior to 8/9. This is a big advantage since it costs $20K-$40K to requalify a week. Maybe they are giving free enrollment to offset the loss of the 2 year banking window.


----------



## kozykritter

cubigbird said:


> Supposedly timeshare sales are required to be licensed as real estate agents.  You would think there would be accountability and regulations on the misrepresentations and licenses should be at risk.


Also if it was a documented corporate sales strategy to target resale owners with the fact that they wouldn't be Abound eligible without a requalification, that would support fraud litigation. A sales person acting on their own is one thing but a corporate policy or approach is something else. All a lawyer would have to do is convince a judge of that systemic possibility (make a prima facie case, likely by gathering a group of owners in that situation together in the lawsuit) to get them to order initial discovery and get all internal MVW documents related to the matter. Not saying there is fraud here, just sharing the reality of how litigation and our US legal system currently functions. If you don't like the way it works, write your local representative


----------



## KACTravels

dioxide45 said:


> There are also a lot more video tutorials for Vistana owners.
> Clearly some of this was intended to be relevant when we had a more functioning system. One of the videos indicates you can determine your Club Point election value on the Owner Dashboard, but I can't find it.
> 
> Then there is this from a video;
> View attachment 63303


Where did you find this?


----------



## RunCat

DanCali said:


> Why disadvantages? During the height of the pandemic, I could bank any unused Staroptions I had from canceled reservations up to December 31, 2020. And can still use any of those I have left till then end of this year. That was a huge feature to have...



I agree that during the pandemic the ability to bank points was a good thing and was necessitated.  The issue is that it creates a surplus of usable points in a particular year without an increase in inventory.  To make an extreme example, if everyone banks 2022 points for use in 2023, there would be twice as many points chasing the same number of properties.  The lack of available inventory in both SVN and II (and in other systems) is arguably due to this increased quantity of points.  Due to this stress on the program, SVN only allowed  borrowing from the future.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> *"What separate VSN fees will no longer be charged when Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out?*
> 
> When Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out, the following VSN fees will be eliminated:
> Additional housekeeping fees associated with multiple reservations (over and above the one housekeeping fee included in your maintenance fee)"
> 
> 
> 
> The resorts will likely lose money since the additional housekeeping costs will probably to be incorporated in the annual budget of the resort while the higher annual network fees go to Marriott.
> Some people have the same concern about the units controlled by MVC and rented through Marriott.com and other channels. Those units usually receive daily housekeeping (still true post-pandemic?), and the costs are probably amalgamated with the resort housekeeping costs. If true, in the last few years this has grown in significance since MVC has increased the rental revenue and now controls a large number of units.


There were increases in the housekeeping line item on annual budgets in the years after Marriott rolled out their DC program. This was due to the new short stays that were permitted. I suspect the same will happen here. These extra costs will just be passed off in higher maintenance fees. No HK fee sounds great, but it increases the annual MF and thus also increases the Marriott management fee. They are sneaky that way. 

As for cash based stays, Marriott does provide a rebate/payment back to the resort HOAs to cover the additional maintenance fee costs associated with those types of stays and their daily housekeeping (if they ever restart daily HK after COVID).


----------



## kozykritter

RunCat said:


> I agree that during the pandemic the ability to bank points was a good thing and was necessitated.  The issue is that it creates a surplus of usable points in a particular year without an increase in inventory.  To make an extreme example, if everyone banks 2022 points for use in 2023, there would be twice as many points chasing the same number of properties.  The lack of available inventory in both SVN and II (and in other systems) is arguably due to this increased quantity of points.  Due to this stress on the program, SVN only allowed  borrowing from the future.


MVW mentioned this current constrained situation in their last earnings call and expected the runout period to last through 2023 and perhaps 2024. To help alleviate it a bit they have pulled some inventory they normally rent on Marriott.com and well as pulling weeks inventory from II to fulfill points reservations in the MVC exchange.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> SBP and Orlando are still selling Sheraton flex. I was just at SBP and that is what they offered me instead of club points.


But we don't know how much longer they will be doing so...


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> But we don't know how much longer they will be doing so...





Red elephant said:


> SBP and Orlando are still selling Sheraton flex. I was just at SBP and that is what they offered me instead of club points.


Do you what the price per option is they told you?


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect they will always have reaquired Flex contracts they need to resell, but you might have to push to buy one as all the sales centers will be moving to selling Abound Club Points if they haven't already. If they figure out a way to somehow move that reaquired Flex into the trust (which I don't think they will), then you may be out of luck and have to buy 2K trust points.



This seems like it could be an interesting conundrum for MVW. With reacquired weeks, they can easily deed Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton weeks into the trust to fund new sales as a low-cost substitution for new-build inventory. But if they don't have a way to resell Flex interests as Abound ClubPoints, this becomes dead inventory on their books. While today, they have some sales reps that are still well-versed in VSN/Flex Trusts, as time moves on and all sales are Abound ClubPoints, I'm sure they don't want to keep training new sales reps on the nuances of and how to sell any reacquired Flex interests. They will have no choice to take back a Flex if it's a foreclosure, but will they let resales pass unchallenged through ROFR? What happens to Flex rights that are sold on the third party resale market? Will people even be able to resell these? 

It seems to me they will need to find a way to solve that issue, eventually. Any idea how many Flex interests are out there?


----------



## timsi

I see this as a separate topic from the others concerning Abound and maybe we can keep it this way so that others with similar views (or not) can comment and reach a better conclusion together.

I own one mandatory resort and several voluntary, all resale. I do not see a good reason to trade in Abound and I may eventually opt-out. My main concern is that banking will be reduced (in my case) from 2 years to one. This is a big issue for me because there is a higher likelihood points will expire more frequently.  "If you like what you have you can keep it" is not true, as far as I can tell. VSN has become overnight a second-class exchange program with only leftovers after Abound scooped all the good weeks at 12 months, apparently at the same priority level with the resort owners. I have concerns about the legal foundation they used to accomplish that but that is another story. I frankly do not trust MVC to be a fair broker because of the lack of transparency concerning the inventory. There are no published rules about how they divide the inventory for each week of the calendar and for each bucket and also MVC is not transparent about how they book the units they control and rent.

I am not going to rush to opt out since the reduced banking feature does not kick in right away, but I will very strongly consider it in the future. What I am NOT going to do is give Marriott any new money to requalify my resale units especially since the customer service has deteriorated significantly and has become extremely unreliable in the last few years and because the program is so complex that I do not anticipate that to change for the better, to the contrary. I am not aware of any other company that "accomplished" so many website crashes, updates or no updates. The level of incompetence is mindboggling.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> This seems like it could be an interesting conundrum for MVW. With reacquired weeks, they can easily deed Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton weeks into the trust to fund new sales as a low-cost substitution for new-build inventory. But if they don't have a way to resell Flex interests as Abound ClubPoints, this becomes dead inventory on their books. While today, they have some sales reps that are still well-versed in VSN/Flex Trusts, as time moves on and all sales are Abound ClubPoints, I'm sure they don't want to keep training new sales reps on the nuances of and how to sell any reacquired Flex interests. They will have no choice to take back a Flex if it's a foreclosure, but will they let resales pass unchallenged through ROFR? What happens to Flex rights that are sold on the third party resale market? Will people even be able to resell these?
> 
> It seems to me they will need to find a way to solve that issue, eventually. Any idea how many Flex interests are out there?


I don't know how many Flex interests there are, but Sheraton Flex has been in existence since 2015 and Westin Flex since 2017. I suspect they could just sell Westin & Sheraton Flex only to existing VSN owners or those in the know. Kind of like how Marriott markets bundle/hybrid. The sales rep doesn't necessarily need to understand the program because the buyer is an educated one. Marriott does this on the weeks side, but only with resale listings as they add all reaquired inventory to the MVCD Trust. But no reason they couldn't do similar with required Flex inventory that they have no real market for.

Visana will still be selling Westin Aventuras in Mexico. So it isn't like they don't have another Flex product that they need to keep sales up to speed on.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> There were increases in the housekeeping line item on annual budgets in the years after Marriott rolled out their DC program. This was due to the new short stays that were permitted. I suspect the same will happen here. These extra costs will just be passed off in higher maintenance fees. No HK fee sounds great, but it increases the annual MF and thus also increases the Marriott management fee. They are sneaky that way.
> 
> As for cash based stays, Marriott does provide a rebate/payment back to the resort HOAs to cover the additional maintenance fee costs associated with those types of stays and their daily housekeeping (if they ever restart daily HK after COVID).





dioxide45 said:


> There were increases in the housekeeping line item on annual budgets in the years after Marriott rolled out their DC program. This was due to the new short stays that were permitted. I suspect the same will happen here. These extra costs will just be passed off in higher maintenance fees. No HK fee sounds great, but it increases the annual MF and thus also increases the Marriott management fee. They are sneaky that way.



They should track these additional housekeeping costs and compensate the resorts from the annual network fees they make (= less profit for Marriott). If they want to offer anything for free, fine with me but why do the resort owners have to pay for these costs so that Marriott can brag about their generosity?


----------



## dioxide45

I think it may make sense for some people to opt-out. Like in your situation or someone who is a single VOI owner that only uses their home resort week. Opting out would save them $70 a year. Personally I think the extra $70 is worth it for the added benefit of being able to rent Abound points, but others may not find that important. I agree that the banking timeframes are a big hit to the VSN system.


----------



## Erinaadyn

dioxide45 said:


> I think it may make sense for some people to opt-out. Like in your situation or someone who is a single VOI owner that only uses their home resort week. Opting out would save them $70 a year. Personally I think the extra $70 is worth it for the added benefit of being able to rent Abound points, but others may not find that important. I agree that the banking timeframes are a big hit to the VSN system.


What’s the new banking rules?


----------



## dioxide45

Erinaadyn said:


> What’s the new banking rules?


StarOption banking will change to one year for Owner through Executive, 1.5 years for President and 2 years for Chairman's. RIght now all StarOptions are banked for two year.


----------



## Erinaadyn

dioxide45 said:


> StarOption banking will change to one year for Owner through Executive, 1.5 years for President and 2 years for Chairman's. RIght now all StarOptions are banked for two year.


Great. Thank you
how do we know which category we fall into?


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know how many Flex interests there are, but Sheraton Flex has been in existence since 2015 and Westin Flex since 2017. I suspect they could just sell Westin & Sheraton Flex only to existing VSN owners or those in the know. Kind of like how Marriott markets bundle/hybrid. The sales rep doesn't necessarily need to understand the program because the buyer is an educated one. Marriott does this on the weeks side, but only with resale listings as they add all reaquired inventory to the MVCD Trust. But no reason they couldn't do similar with required Flex inventory that they have no real market for.
> 
> Visana will still be selling Westin Aventuras in Mexico. So it isn't like they don't have another Flex product that they need to keep sales up to speed on.



The complexity of all of this for MVW kinda makes my head spin at times. So much legacy stuff that can't be totally consolidated/changed to the new product format. Since the MVC-side FAQ that was posted first was sort of business as usual stuff for us on the MVC side, the real complexity of this consolidation didn't dawn on me until I read the VSN-side FAQ you posted earlier today. It's a complicated mess. No wonder it has taken so long to get it figured out and the code written. When I was in banking and we did major acquisitions, we were used to just mapping every acquired product over to a common product grid, and once that conversion/transition was finished, everyone was on the same platform/products. We tried to create a consolidated/revised product structure that minimized negative disruption for as many of the acquired customers as possible, but when it was all done, everyone had the same products available and legacy stuff was ditched. Timeshare mergers are so messy. Glad it's not me that has to manage it all.


----------



## dioxide45

Erinaadyn said:


> Great. Thank you
> how do we know which category we fall into?


It is at the top of the document that I attached.


----------



## dioxide45

I don't think I saw this posted yet, but it was asked about last night when the PDF was posted. Looks like late checkout/early checkin is gone. Probably gone even for those that opt-out.


----------



## Racing2007

Did I read that correctly that Owners at their home resort will maintain the booking advantage over Abound as they will have the 12 month booking window opened for them at midnight Friday, Sat, Sun, and Abound will only be ae to book starting Tuesday after 12 months out?


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> The complexity of all of this for MVW kinda makes my head spin at times. So much legacy stuff that can't be totally consolidated/changed to the new product format. Since the MVC-side FAQ that was posted first was sort of business as usual stuff for us on the MVC side, the real complexity of this consolidation didn't dawn on me until I read the VSN-side FAQ you posted in the other thread earlier today. It's a complicated mess. No wonder it has taken so long to get it figured out and the code written. When I was in banking and we did major acquisitions, we were used to just mapping every acquired product over to a common product grid, and once that conversion/transition was finished, everyone was on the same platform/products. We tried to create a consolidated/revised product structure that minimized negative disruption for as many of the acquired customers as possible, but when it was all done, everyone had the same products available and legacy stuff was ditched. Timeshare mergers are so messy. Glad it's not me that has to manage it all.


Yeah, so many more complexities on the Visana side since they already had trusts setup and their trusts were also very fragmented. Their products were kind of a mess. I can see why it has taken so long to get to this point. While it has taken longer to get here, I think Marriott is doing it right when compared to HGVC with HGV Max where they are kind of just slapping something together to say they got something done quick. I think overall the Marriott product offers something far superior to what HGV Max is offering. But that is just my opinion...


----------



## Erinaadyn

dioxide45 said:


> It is at the top of the document that I attached.


All I know is we are 4 star elite. I have not been told about those categories at top


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I do not see a good reason to trade in Abound and I may eventually opt-out. My main concern is that banking will be reduced (in my case) from 2 years to one. This is a big issue for me because there is a higher likelihood points will expire more frequently.
> 
> I am not going to rush to opt out since the reduced banking feature does not kick in right away, but I will very strongly consider it in the future.


Just keep in mind that opting out of "Abound" isn't going to change your banking options as they are making the same changes to VSN.



timsi said:


> VSN has become overnight a second-class exchange program with only leftovers after Abound scooped all the good weeks at 12 months, apparently at the same priority level with the resort owners. I have concerns about the legal foundation they used to accomplish that but that is another story. I frankly do not trust MVC to be a fair broker because of the lack of transparency concerning the inventory. There are no published rules about how they divide the inventory for each week of the calendar and for each bucket and also MVC is not transparent about how they book the units they control and rent.


I fully understand this reaction and to be honest I have had some of the same concerns.  That said, there were these exact same concerns when Marriott launched their Destination Points program; weeks owners were sure the "Points" side would scoop up all the good weeks and nothing would be left for the traditional week owners.  For the most part, it doesn't seem to have materialized.  While there are always inventory issues for in demand weeks, they don't appear to have gotten any worse as a result of the DP program launch.  I'm hopeful we will see the same ring true for "Abound" and its effect on SVN.


----------



## dioxide45

Racing2007 said:


> Did I read that correctly that Owners at their home resort will maintain the booking advantage over Abound as they will have the 12 month booking window opened for them at midnight Friday, Sat, Sun, and Abound will only be ae to book starting Tuesday after 12 months out?


Abound inventory release dates will differ as they only release inventory once a week for 12 month bookings, on Tuesday. THe inventory however is segregated. So weeks that have elected for Club points won't be available to be booked for home resort reservations.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I cannot even log into Vistana right now.  

@dioxide45 Do you expect all of our ownerships to be on one account?


----------



## kozykritter

JIMinNC said:


> This seems like it could be an interesting conundrum for MVW. With reacquired weeks, they can easily deed Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton weeks into the trust to fund new sales as a low-cost substitution for new-build inventory. But if they don't have a way to resell Flex interests as Abound ClubPoints, this becomes dead inventory on their books. While today, they have some sales reps that are still well-versed in VSN/Flex Trusts, as time moves on and all sales are Abound ClubPoints, I'm sure they don't want to keep training new sales reps on the nuances of and how to sell any reacquired Flex interests. They will have no choice to take back a Flex if it's a foreclosure, but will they let resales pass unchallenged through ROFR? What happens to Flex rights that are sold on the third party resale market? Will people even be able to resell these?
> 
> It seems to me they will need to find a way to solve that issue, eventually. Any idea how many Flex interests are out there?


If Vistana could put weeks inventory into the Flex trusts, couldn't they also pull them out or do the trust terms forbid it?  For example, if they reacquire a Sheraton Flex for 81K and then pull out a week worth that corresponding amount of options, then once it is out of the trust it is just a week again which they could then convey to the DC trust instead. If permitted, that would be one way to deal with reacquired Flex products while reducing the size of Flex trusts and getting inventory into DC trust.


----------



## dioxide45

Erinaadyn said:


> All I know is we are 4 star elite. I have not been told about those categories at top


4* will be a minimum of Presidential unless the total number of Abound points puts you into a higher level.


----------



## timsi

[/QUOTE]
They are so messy in part because they do not want the retail owners to have the same benefits. This serves them very well of course, it lowers the resale value and they can get that inventory for almost nothing and resale it. They also wanted to 


Racing2007 said:


> Did I read that correctly that Owners at their home resort will maintain the booking advantage over Abound as they will have the 12 month booking window opened for them at midnight Friday, Sat, Sun, and Abound will only be ae to book starting Tuesday after 12 months out?



Theoretically the resort owners should have priority over any other category. In practice, we do not know how many units will be released at midnight for the resort owners and how many will be saved for Abound. ZERO transparency.


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> I cannot even log into Vistana right now.
> 
> @dioxide45 Do you expect all of our ownerships to be on one account?


Not sure what you mean exactly. Are you referring to Voluntary weeks vs VSN/Abound? We still aren't sure how they will handle weeks based reservations, but they are working on a consolidated platform. So I suspect you would use one account and system to do everything. That question wasn't directly addressed.


----------



## JIMinNC

kozykritter said:


> If Vistana could put weeks inventory into the Flex trusts, couldn't they also pull them out or do the trust terms forbid it?  For example, if they reacquire a Sheraton Flex for 81K and then pull out a week worth that corresponding amount of options, then once it is out of the trust it is just a week again which they could then convey to the DC trust instead. If permitted, that would be one way to deal with reacquired Flex products while reducing the size of Flex trusts and getting inventory into DC trust.



That would seem to work from a math standpoint, but I have no idea what the legalities are.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> Just keep in mind that opting out of "Abound" isn't going to change your banking options as they are making the same changes to VSN.
> 
> 
> I fully understand this reaction and to be honest I have had some of the same concerns.  That said, there were these exact same concerns when Marriott launched their Destination Points program; weeks owners were sure the "Points" side would scoop up all the good weeks and noting would be left for the traditional week owners.  For the most part, it doesn't seem to have materialized.  While there are always inventory issues for in demand weeks, they don't appear to have gotten any worse as a result of the DP program launch.  I'm hopeful we will see the same ring true for "Abound" and its effect on SVN.


I am not very concerned about the home reservation and this would be the fair comparison with the DP launch. I have concerns that the VSN inventory will suffer greatly since the booking starts 4 months after Abound. I hope it is clear how this is different from the situation you mentioned.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I am not very concerned about the home reservation and this would be the fair comparison with the DP launch. I have concerns that the VSN inventory will suffer greatly since the booking starts 4 months after Abound. I hope it is clear how this is different from the situation you mentioned.


It's not different because it's all related to inventory availability; Abound reservation windows opening at 12 months doesn't mean they will have access to book everything.  Inventory that hasn't been "traded" into Abound (by owners electing to receive Abound points) is not available to Abound (and vice-versa).


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> If Vistana could put weeks inventory into the Flex trusts, couldn't they also pull them out or do the trust terms forbid it?  For example, if they reacquire a Sheraton Flex for 81K and then pull out a week worth that corresponding amount of options, then once it is out of the trust it is just a week again which they could then convey to the DC trust instead. If permitted, that would be one way to deal with reacquired Flex products while reducing the size of Flex trusts and getting inventory into DC trust.


This may be possible and over time they may figure out a way to be able to convey Flex into the DC trust. I beleive when Vistana added Nanea into the Westin Flex trust, they did convey interests vs actual weeks. So there is probably a mechanism there, they may just not be to a point where they are ready to do anything yet and we will probably see at least a few years of them still selling Westin & Sheraton Flex to some degree.


----------



## DanCali

Jayco29D said:


> So this sounds like a big disadvantage to using SOs vs converting to Club Points. With Club Points, you can book at 12 months vs 8 months with SOs.




It's not a disadvantage because it's not the same inventory.

The Vistana inventory that will be available to book in Abound will be only from weeks that VSN owner actively elected to convert to Abound points for that use year (and potentially additional VSN inventory owned by the MVC Trust). Those weeks will no longer be available in VSN to book - not as home resort and not as Staroptions. No different that someone depositing their week in II.

The Vistana Inventory that will be available to book with Staroptions will be whatever weeks were not deposited in II or Abound that are still available for booking at 8 months out. Abound cannot access this inventory if it has not been deposited. Owners who elected Abound points will not be competing for this inventory using Staroptions (at least not using the Staroptions they gave up).


----------



## byeloe

Jayco29D said:


> So this sounds like a big disadvantage to using SOs vs converting to Club Points. With Club Points, you can book at 12 months vs 8 months with SOs


If you are planning to go to a VSN resort then electing club points is probably not the best way, even if it gets you access at 12 months, since there will be limited inventory and the cost in club points is usually quite a bit more than staroptions


----------



## Jayco29D

DanCali said:


> It's not a disadvantage because it's not the same inventory.
> 
> The Vistana inventory that will be available to book in Abound will be only from weeks that VSN owner actively elected to convert to Abound points for that use year (and potentially additional VSN inventory owned by the MVC Trust). Those weeks will no longer be available in VSN to book - not as home resort and not as Staroptions. No different that someone depositing their week in II.
> 
> The Vistana Inventory that will be available to book with Staroptions will be whatever weeks were not deposited in II or Abound that are still available for booking at 8 months out. Abound cannot access this inventory if it has not been deposited. Owners who elected Abound points will not be competing for this inventory using Staroptions (at least not using the Staroptions they gave up).



Makes sense. Just wondering this: Since now Vistana owners have another option of how to use their week by converting to Club Points, will this mean there are fewer SOs available since fewer people will need or want to bank SOs, esp since in 2025 they only get 1 year to use them?


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> Just keep in mind that opting out of "Abound" isn't going to change your banking options as they are making the same changes to VSN.


I missed this. Opting out is really only going to impact the fee structure you pay; Abound consolidated Club Fee vs. VSN Fee + a la cart fees. The rules and deadlines for VSN won't change when you opt-out.


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> Do you what the price per option is they told you?


No I did not entertain that but he did mention a hybrid package for 44,000 flex options and 2 bedroom villa for $15,000 he said the packages were for $10,000-$15,000.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> But we don't know how much longer they will be doing so...


He did not give me a date but said not for long.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> It's not different because it's all related to inventory availability; Abound reservation windows opening at 12 months doesn't mean they will have access to book everything.  Inventory that hasn't been "traded" into Abound (by owners electing to receive Abound points) is not available to Abound (and vice-versa).


People will not wait for the best weeks/ resorts for 4 months. As soon as they see something available many will book it in Abound. To do that, a Vistana owner has to deposit a week which will create the inventory in Abound and drain VSN. To make it more clear, do you think the Vistana inventory in Abound would be the same if the booking started at 6 months before check in vs at 12 months now? The answer is pretty obvious, NO, most trade would take place in VSN after the resort owners booked what they needed.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know how many Flex interests there are, but Sheraton Flex has been in existence since 2015 and Westin Flex since 2017. I suspect they could just sell Westin & Sheraton Flex only to existing VSN owners or those in the know. Kind of like how Marriott markets bundle/hybrid. The sales rep doesn't necessarily need to understand the program because the buyer is an educated one. Marriott does this on the weeks side, but only with resale listings as they add all reaquired inventory to the MVCD Trust. But no reason they couldn't do similar with required Flex inventory that they have no real market for.
> 
> Visana will still be selling Westin Aventuras in Mexico. So it isn't like they don't have another Flex product that they need to keep sales up to speed on.


They are already selling Sheraton flex/hybrid bundle at SBP using foreclosed weeks.


----------



## DeniseM

My understanding is that the VSN fees will sunset, and you will pay the Abound Fees for a mandatory deed, whether you use it or not.


----------



## dioxide45

DeniseM said:


> My understanding is that the VSN fees will sunset, and you will pay the Abound Fees for a mandatory deed, whether you use it or not.


Kind of, you also have the option to opt-out of Abound. Then the fees will will revert to the lower VSN Fee + a la cart fees (cancellation, banking, HK, etc). They have to keep these fees in place to support mandatory resale owners that purchase on or after 8/9 that won't be able to join Abound.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> People will not wait for the best weeks/ resorts for 4 months. As soon as they *see something available* many will book it in Abound. To do that, a Vistana owner has to deposit a week which will create the inventory in Abound and drain VSN. To make it more clear, do you think the Vistana inventory in Abound would be the same if the booking started at 6 months before check in vs at 12 months now? The answer is pretty obvious, NO, most trade would take place in VSN after the resort owners booked what they needed.


I think you misunderstand how availability will work.  Just because Abound owners can book at 12 months doesn't mean they will have access to (and that means access to book or access to even SEE weeks available) every single week at 12 months.  It will be based on the relative percentage of VSN ownerships that have elected Abound points.  

Again, it was very similar when MVC launched Destination Points (and even before that when they permitted certain weeks owners to book at 13 months vs 12 months).  Even today, in MVC Destination Points alone, those who go to book at 13 months only see a small sliver of the total inventory....and then at 12 months additional inventory is made available.  Similar concerns were raised about there never again being any "good trades" for Marriott resorts in Interval International (as this was the only way to exchange between Marriott resorts prior to the DP program) but yet day after day I see bulk banks of most of the big MVC resorts in Interval (and this is only what we see after ongoing requests have filled) and we continue to see posts of great (even prime season) trades completed by MVC owners.

Bottom line, MVC will manage inventory to balance availability with the relative percentages of those electing to participate in each program. YES, I agree that such inventory management is not as transparent as I would like and there could be concerns for MVC "playing" the system.  However, as I said, these same "inventory games" concerns were raised just as loudly and clearly when the MVC DP program was launched and the fears have been largely unrealized.  

Finally, I agree over time there is a risk of reduced availability in VSN if larger number of people elect to participate in Abound (and/or MVC buys up VSN weeks and deposits them into Abound) but this could take years/decades and may never have a dramatic impact.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> They are already selling Sheraton flex/hybrid bundle at SBP using foreclosed weeks.


Foreclosed Vistana weeks? It was my understanding that those were going into the MVC Destinations Trust. In fact we say a big conveyance of those to the trust on August 15th.


----------



## tamu_bu

byeloe said:


> If you are planning to go to a VSN resort then electing club points is probably not the best way, even if it gets you access at 12 months, since there will be limited inventory and the cost in club points is usually quite a bit more than staroptions


That is probable but not absolute. There could be some differences is the season breakdown that could make some off season and other various weeks a better value in Abound. Coupled with the ability to book at 12 mos club point, it could be an advantage. There is apparantly the complicating factor that you will have to elect club points by approx. the Oct. BEFORE the use year. So you won't be able to see the availability of the Marriott resort you are targeting until 12 mos. out.


----------



## DonnaJ123

Im wondering if those of us that bought resale at Westin Kaanapali (mandatory resort) will now be eligible for status in MVW?  I didn't have any status prior because I purchased resale...but am I reading this correct that if my 2 resorts that combined are worth 16,660 club points...does this now make them automatically eligible for Club status if I elect to exchange them into club points?


----------



## DanCali

Jayco29D said:


> Makes sense. Just wondering this: Since now Vistana owners have another option of how to use their week by converting to Club Points, will this mean there are fewer SOs available since fewer people will need or want to bank SOs, esp since in 2025 they only get 1 year to use them?




Not sure I completely understand the question but 

- I think there will be less inventory available for SO booking because inevitably at each resort some owners will exchange to Abound and those weeks will be gone.
- This will be more evident at resorts with generous SO allocation like WKORVN/S where owners get 6200-8000+ points and can use those to trade for 10-14 days at places like WPORV or WSJ.
- There will be fewer people competing for SO inventory, but not necessarily for that higher end inventory like WKORVN/S.
- There will eventually be fewer SO in the system due to shorter expiration dates for most owners, but that also means that there will be a greater urgency to use them so, in balance, not sure if it reduces overall demand


----------



## DonnaJ123

It is a shame that they won't allow us to deposit the lock off portion of our 2 bedroom lockouts for club points.  I really like that perk.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> Foreclosed Vistana weeks? It was my understanding that those were going into the MVC Destinations Trust. In fact we say a big conveyance of those to the trust on August 15th.


That is what he told me when I asked him where they were getting the weeks from.


----------



## DanCali

DonnaJ123 said:


> Im wondering if those of us that bought resale at Westin Kaanapali (mandatory resort) will now be eligible for status in MVW?  I didn't have any status prior because I purchased resale...but am I reading this correct that if my 2 resorts that combined are worth 16,660 club points...does this now make them automatically eligible for Club status if I elect to exchange them into club points?




Yes, you should be Chairman.


----------



## kozykritter

DonnaJ123 said:


> Im wondering if those of us that bought resale at Westin Kaanapali (mandatory resort) will now be eligible for status in MVW?  I didn't have any status prior because I purchased resale...but am I reading this correct that if my 2 resorts that combined are worth 16,660 club points...does this now make them automatically eligible for Club status if I elect to exchange them into club points?


You don't have to elect them to get the status. They base it on the conversion to Club Points value of the week but the FAQ say it has nothing to do with actually electing to convert the points. In other words you will get Chairman status in VSN without doing anything and in Abound if/when you elect points.


----------



## ocdb8r

kozykritter said:


> You don't have to elect them to get the status. They base it on the conversion to Club Points value of the week but the FAQ say it has nothing to do with actually electing to convert the points. In other words you will get Chairman status in VSN without doing anything and in Abound if/when you elect points.


Even more strange is that your "status" in VSN will be determined by your Abound Club Points values (or alternatively your current VSN status, if higher) regardless of whether you "elect" the points or not and in my reading, even if you "opt out" of Abound altogether.


----------



## DonnaJ123

DanCali said:


> Yes, you should be Chairman.


Well that will be a plus!  thanks!


----------



## DonnaJ123

ocdb8r said:


> Even more strange is that your "status" in VSN will be determined by your Abound Club Points values (or alternatively your current VSN status, if higher) regardless of whether you "elect" the points or not and in my reading, even if you "opt out" of Abound altogether.


Well it looks like their are some pluses here.  Nice to know because I think many of us have been stressed by how this would effect our ownerships.


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> Kind of, you also have the option to opt-out of Abound. Then the fees will will revert to the lower VSN Fee + a la cart fees (cancellation, banking, HK, etc). They have to keep these fees in place to support mandatory resale owners that purchase *on or after 8/9* that won't be able to join Abound.


At a presentation at Westin Nanea on Monday I was told that Mandatory-Resale *[doesn't matter when the resale was purchased]* would not be enrolled in the new Marriott-System.
The only way for any resale [Voluntary/Mandatory] to count toward status and participate in the new Marriott-System would be via a retro [minimum purchase].


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> At a presentation at Westin Nanea on Monday I was told that Mandatory-Resale *[doesn't matter when the resale was purchased]* would not be enrolled in the new Marriott-System.
> The only way for any resale [Voluntary/Mandatory] to count toward status and participate in the new Marriott-System would be via a retro [minimum purchase].


We've stopped believing sales and now go by what is in the written documentation.

Eligible VOIs:
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
*VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.*
VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
VOIs enrolled in VSN at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and Westin Riverfront resort will not be able to elect to receive Club Points at the time Abound transactions go live and these VOIs will not count toward the Owners benefit level. We anticipate that these VOIs will be eligible to elect to receive Club Points and count toward the Owner’s benefit level in the future. Additionally, Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound until Owners at these properties are able to elect to receive Club Points.
Restricted, First Day Benefit and Bonus StarOptions are not eligible for election.
Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I missed this. Opting out is really only going to impact the fee structure you pay; Abound consolidated Club Fee vs. VSN Fee + a la cart fees. The rules and deadlines for VSN won't change when you opt-out.



If I opt out and stay within VSN will that keep the 2 year banking alive for 5* just in that system or is that going to also take the haircut?


----------



## ocdb8r

DonnaJ123 said:


> Well it looks like their are some pluses here.  Nice to know because I think many of us have been stressed by how this would effect our ownerships.


Agreed....I think one plus (unless I've misunderstood something) is that mandatory weeks owners that owned prior to 8/9 that don't opt out of Abound will now be able to include their mandatory weeks values towards elite levels, even if those mandatory weeks were "unqualified" resale purchases.  I think there's likely to be a fair share of tuggers who bought mandatory weeks resale solely for VSN access that may now end up with some elite benefits to boot!


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> We've stopped believing sales and now go by what is in the written documentation.
> 
> Eligible VOIs:
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> *VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.*
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
> VOIs enrolled in VSN at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and Westin Riverfront resort will not be able to elect to receive Club Points at the time Abound transactions go live and these VOIs will not count toward the Owners benefit level. We anticipate that these VOIs will be eligible to elect to receive Club Points and count toward the Owner’s benefit level in the future. Additionally, Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound until Owners at these properties are able to elect to receive Club Points.
> Restricted, First Day Benefit and Bonus StarOptions are not eligible for election.
> Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.


How do I interpret this *"were enrolled"*?
Does *"enrolled"* mean "Mandatory/Voluntary retro" or "Star-Options eligible"?


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> At a presentation at Westin Nanea on Monday I was told that Mandatory-Resale *[doesn't matter when the resale was purchased]* would not be enrolled in the new Marriott-System.
> The only way for any resale [Voluntary/Mandatory] to count toward status and participate in the new Marriott-System would be via a retro [minimum purchase].




Not surprising given that you probably own a resale mandatory week and they were trying to close a sale.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

timsi said:


> because the program is so complex .............so many website crashes, updates or no updates.



I've a feeling that these two are strongly related.


----------



## MICROZE

DanCali said:


> Not surprising given that you probably own a resale mandatory week and they were trying to close a sale.


I do have resale mandatory weeks, however, all were enrolled via a past retro.
They did not try to upsell me with flex or DCP. However, they did try to push me that this would be my last chance to purchase deeded weeks in Maui [WKORN or Nanea].


----------



## remowidget

robertk2012 said:


> Looks like the late checkout is gone.....


I don't think Late Checkout was ever a Vistana deal. It was a Marriott Hotel deal. I think Vistana properties were just honoring it.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

tamu_bu said:


> If you're chuffed, you're a Brit. Am I right?


Well I'm dis-chuffed! Can you guess my nationality


----------



## pchung6

MICROZE said:


> I do have resale mandatory weeks, however, all were enrolled via a past retro.
> They did not try to upsell me with flex or DCP. However, they did try to push me that this would be my last chance to purchase deeded weeks in Maui [WKORN or Nanea].


Looks like you have been fooled by sales to retro. You can enroll Abound as resale mandatory without purchase anything.


----------



## kozykritter

remowidget said:


> Are Vistana owners paying a separate $99 fee to be part Interval International? If we are, that effectively lowers our Annual Club Fee by $99.
> 
> View attachment 63342


The VSN membership fee that we've been paying every year includes a Vistana II corporate account which they value at $99. If you have a resale that is not in the VSN, then you have to buy your own II membership which I thought cost $129 but maybe it's $99.


----------



## tamu_bu

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Well I'm dis-chuffed! Can you guess my nationality


A Frenchman posing as an Englishman.


----------



## VacationPro

A good one to start with is @dioxide45

Abound FAQs


----------



## Jayco29D

DanCali said:


> Not sure I completely understand the question but
> 
> - I think there will be less inventory available for SO booking because inevitably at each resort some owners will exchange to Abound and those weeks will be gone.
> - This will be more evident at resorts with generous SO allocation like WKORVN/S where owners get 6200-8000+ points and can use those to trade for 10-14 days at places like WPORV or WSJ.
> - There will be fewer people competing for SO inventory, but not necessarily for that higher end inventory like WKORVN/S.
> - There will eventually be fewer SO in the system due to shorter expiration dates for most owners, but that also means that there will be a greater urgency to use them so, in balance, not sure if it reduces overall demand



Yes this answers my question. Thank you.


----------



## kozykritter

Here are the Abound Exchange Procedures which are basically the terms and conditions underlying the program.


----------



## Venter

DanCali said:


> In the words of their CEO on Investor Day 6/16/2022:
> 
> Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 48 (https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/c255b213-f4b8-4090-9cfc-587aef00af3b)
> 
> _Steve Weisz:
> I'll start with the first part and then we'll ask Lori to chime in on the second part. There is no question that when you have three different platforms, whether it be Marriott Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Sheraton Vacation Club, they were all started in different iterations, different currencies, etc. Trying to find the common denominator between those and* make sure that no one is disadvantaged as a result of joining Abound, which in fact is just another overlay. It’s another use option that you have.* _
> 
> Looking at the chart below, along with the 2-year Staroptions banking for all VSN members, and some of the other deadline in the document dioxide45 uploaded, I beg to differ...
> 
> View attachment 63269


I cannot remember that Chairmans etc. Used to get +10% when exchanging for Bonvoy points.  This seems to be one enhancement that was carried over to benefit all.


----------



## Venter

kozykritter said:


> So basically John Ruble was lying when he said that in synching up benefits between the two programs, they would lean towards adopting the more generous policy, specifically when it came to banking. All they did was to take Marriott benefit policies and apply them to VSN. Admittedly I feel let down by the results... Damn my eternal optimism!


It looks like they carried over the elite extra 10% bonvoy benefits to the Marriott side.


----------



## SVOForever

So I've seen a couple responses to the scenarios and I have re-read things a couple times ...

So my situation is sorta like DonnaJ123 ... what everyone seems to think is that the owner of 2 resale units would join ABOUND and pay the consolidated fee they talk about so many times, not the VSN fee plus a la cartes.  But in any given year if we want to exchange within VSN, we simply choose to use SO's not Club Points.

Can someone then clarify what they mean when they reference "opt out" at least 11 times in their T&Cs?  I used to interpret that to mean that in 2023, if I decide by December 31, 2022 that I want to use SO's for 2023 travel, not Club Points, then I am "opting out" at that point.  But what you are saying is that there is some scenario where someone just chooses to WHOLLY opt out of ABOUND and that's what those references mean?

So what I should do is:  OPT-IN but then choose to use SO's in 2023?  

If that is the case, what type of scenario / when would anyone "opt out" such as when it says all of these?

*Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.*
_*Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.*_
_*Yes, unless you can and do opt-out, there are no longer cancellation fees for reservations canceled within 60 days of arrival beginning in 2023.*_
_*Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for stays at 20+ hotels through VSN Select?*_

_*Yes, but unless you can and do opt-out, you will no longer be required to pay an additional fee to take advantage of this benefit beginning in 2023.*_

I just don't understand what they mean by opting out?


----------



## cubigbird

Time to start a TUG mutiny on the 2 years banking timeframe going away.


----------



## pchung6

My question is if I opt out and decide to sell my mandatory resale, can the new buyer keeps the VSN? If yes, I will most definitely opt out and only pay lower VSN fee.


----------



## KBCO

I own at Sheraton Mountain Vista purchasing there 25 years ago.  I'm not sure if I will opt in or not.  We are considering buying a resale in Maui at WKORV.  But after reading all the new rules that have been discussed here, I'm not sure that is a good idea now.  I wonder if the resale purchase idea that has been recommended  is still valid?  I would love to hear from some experienced tuggers on that issue.  Thanks.


----------



## DanCali

Venter said:


> I cannot remember that Chairmans etc. Used to get +10% when exchanging for Bonvoy points.  This seems to be one enhancement that was carried over to benefit all.




Not an enhancement. It was a 4-Star and 5-Star benefit already.

Given the continued devaluation of Bonvoy points, not likely to move the needle much IMO. Although Vistana weeks generally have greater Bonvoy point values than comparable MVC weeks.


----------



## vacationtime1

KBCO said:


> I own at Sheraton Mountain Vista purchasing there 25 years ago.  I'm not sure if I will opt in or not.  We are considering buying a resale in Maui at WKORV.  But after reading all the new rules that have been discussed here, I'm not sure that is a good idea now.  I wonder if the resale purchase idea that has been recommended  is still valid?  I would love to hear from some experienced tuggers on that issue.  Thanks.


I don't see how this will affect week ownerships.  The inventory pools will be separate for reservation purposes.  

But if you buy at WKORV, view matters; you will want to avoid island view.


----------



## ocdb8r

SVOForever said:


> I just don't understand what they mean by opting out?


I don't think you understand, but I don't think it's your fault.  They have not been as clear as they should have been about this...and I think it's going to bite them in the butt with a lot of people confused.



SVOForever said:


> So what I should do is:  OPT-IN but then choose to use SO's in 2023?



If you are eligible, you won't need to "opt-in" as it will be the default.  If there's any chance you might see some value in Abound (either because you might, even once, elect for Abound points or because the "all-in" fee structure of Abound is better for you) you should just do nothing.

Even if you are "in" Abound, every year you will get to decide to a) use your owned VOI (week/home options); b) exchange your VOI for StarOptions and use those; c) exchange your VOI for Abound points and use those (and a variety of other things we don't talk about here because they are viewed as a poor value/use of your VOI - queue "We don't talk about Bruno" music).

Why would anyone "opt out" in this case?  The only reason I can think of is if you own a single VOI it is possible the old VSN fee structure could end up being less than the Abound fee structure.  Otherwise it would be to spite MVC, because all the options stress you out or because MVC has done such a poor job of explaining the difference between "opting out" of Abound altogether and the fact that you can chose each and every year between each of the above options.  We're all still learning here though...other reasons could emerge.


----------



## DeniseM

*Friendly Request:* This thread is already 4 pages long, so please limit chitchat posts - let's keep this thread informational as much as possible


----------



## kozykritter

SVOForever said:


> So I've seen a couple responses to the scenarios and I have re-read things a couple times ...
> 
> So my situation is sorta like DonnaJ123 ... what everyone seems to think is that the owner of 2 resale units would join ABOUND and pay the consolidated fee they talk about so many times, not the VSN fee plus a la cartes.  But in any given year if we want to exchange within VSN, we simply choose to use SO's not Club Points.
> 
> Can someone then clarify what they mean when they reference "opt out" at least 11 times in their T&Cs?  I used to interpret that to mean that in 2023, if I decide by December 31, 2022 that I want to use SO's for 2023 travel, not Club Points, then I am "opting out" at that point.  But what you are saying is that there is some scenario where someone just chooses to WHOLLY opt out of ABOUND and that's what those references mean?
> 
> So what I should do is:  OPT-IN but then choose to use SO's in 2023?
> 
> If that is the case, what type of scenario / when would anyone "opt out" such as when it says all of these?
> 
> *Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.*
> _*Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.*_
> _*Yes, unless you can and do opt-out, there are no longer cancellation fees for reservations canceled within 60 days of arrival beginning in 2023.*_
> _*Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for stays at 20+ hotels through VSN Select?*_
> 
> _*Yes, but unless you can and do opt-out, you will no longer be required to pay an additional fee to take advantage of this benefit beginning in 2023.*_
> 
> I just don't understand what they mean by opting out?


It may help to think of Abound in two steps, enrollment and election.  Every ownership in the VSN before 8/9 is being automatically enrolled in Abound...it's a one-time thing that continues on indefinitely. Then each year you can choose whether or not to elect some or all of your ownership to receive Club Points in Abound for the following use year.

The opt out parts comes with enrollment in Abound...let me explain. Once you are enrolled in Abound, you pay the annual Club fee that consolidates all the transaction fees into it ($230). It doesn't matter if you elect Club Points in a given year or just use Home Options, SO's or your week instead - you will still pay the same $230 fee but they will just instead call it the VSN consolidated fee or similar. You remain enrolled in Abound.

You have the choice to opt out of Abound enrollment of your ownership(s). If you opt out, you will be charged the basic VSN membership fee ($170) but have to pay all transaction fees like we do now i.e. extra housekeeping, banking, Bonvoy point conversion, internal II exchanges to Vistana and Marriott properties, guest fees, etc and of course lose the Club Point election option.

We don't know if you opt out of Abound enrollment if they will let you enroll again in future years or not. Again this is not an annual election but a one-time enrollment to gain the right to elect Club Points in a given year if you wish. It would seem most beneficial to opt out before you do any Club Point elections because those transactions are not reversible per the FAQs so you could end up with previously elected unused Club Points being lost if you opt out of Abound enrollment later on.


----------



## kozykritter

DeniseM said:


> *Friendly Request:* This thread is already 4 pages long, so please limit chitchat posts - let's keep this thread informational as much as possible


Clarification - would it be okay for people confused by the info to post questions here and get answers or are you envisioning that happening in another forum?  Maybe we can make the info thread a sticky. Just thoughts.


----------



## DeniseM

Questions/Discussions are great - I'm talking about off-topic social posts.


----------



## DanCali

DeniseM said:


> Questions/Discussions are great - I'm talking about off-topic social posts.



I thought my post above with a call to action deserved its own thread... not sure why it had to be buried in here unless the goal is to limit its visibility?


----------



## robertk2012

Im just curious as to what happens now if I buy another mandatory resale.  Will I pay 2 fees?  How much to add to abound? 

Really I don't care if I can add it to abound as Ill already be over the 15K Chairman requirement.


----------



## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Im just curious as to what happens now if I buy another mandatory resale.  Will I pay 2 fees?



Same question applies to HRA + [other VSN resort eligible to enroll]


----------



## robertk2012

It is quite crazy that unauthorized resales are gaining status and developer purchases are losing benefits.  



DanCali said:


> It appears that, based on recently released information, most VSN owners will likely be adversely impacted to varying degrees when using their ownership within the VSN ecosystem, whether they join Abound or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8/24/22 NEW THREAD:  Discussion of new Abound/VSN Documents [please limit chitchat posts]
> 
> 
> I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation.   • I moved all of the posts from 8/24/22 to this thread, starting with the Docs posted on Vistana.   • Please avoid off topic chitchat posts...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the upcoming changes include:
> 
> - Banked Staroptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman).
> *                  Currently it's 24 months for all. **(Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)*
> - Banking Staroptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential).
> *                  Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star.  **(Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)*
> - No more early checkin and late checkout.
> *                  Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)*
> 
> Why take away a benefit literally every single developer buyer had (2-year banking)? Why cancel the Elite program (and some associated benefits) altogether, which impacts some of their most loyal customers?
> 
> In my view, if they are keeping the VSN Exchange alive, there is really no reason to get rid of the VSN banking rules and the VSN Elite program altogether. Banked Staroptions can still have a 2-year life while banked Abound points can have a 12-24 month life.  Staroptions can also have different banking deadlines than Abound points. And Elite owners using Staroptions to reserve at a VSN resort can retain the few extra benefits they were promised. To me, these changes seem unnecessary and to some extent disrespect the Vistana system we all liked enough to buy into. Even if they don't sell the product anymore, there are tens of thousands of owners who will be adversely impacted by these changes. It could have been done differently...
> 
> If you feel similarly to some degree, I suggest you call owner services, ask for a supervisor ("resolution services") and voice your displeasure. Perhaps some of these issues can be rectified if we make our feelings known.


----------



## kozykritter

robertk2012 said:


> Im just curious as to what happens now if I buy another mandatory resale.  Will I pay 2 fees?  How much to add to abound?
> 
> Really I don't care if I can add it to abound as Ill already be over the 15K Chairman requirement.


Based on the FAQs, you would pay one consolidated Club Dues for all of your ownerships regardless of Abound participation because it also covers VSN participation with no transactions fees. It's only when you opt out of Abound enrollment for your eligible ownership(s) that you revert back to paying a separate basic VSN membership fee plus all the fees like banking, guest fees, extra housekeeping, etc.

I wonder for your mandatory resale from post 8/8 if you could opt out of the VSN consolidated fee (what they call it when Abound is not involved) and pay the basic fee instead along with transaction fees. That might be one of those things we won't know until it starts happening to people


----------



## Joshadelic

Sorry, but I'm confused. I haven't been keeping up with the changes here.

Am I understanding correctly that we will have the option to just keep our VSN account as it currently is rather than have everything converted to this new Abound program? Other than the fact that I think I will now get lifetime Bonvoy Platinum status, I don't see many other advantages. 

This is what I currently own:
1 week SDO "true platinum" studio (67,100 SO's yearly)
1 week SVV Bella platinum 2br L/O (95,700 SO's yearly)

The SDO week was retro'd when I did a transaction with corporate to purchase the SVV week. I don't know if that matters or not. I currently have 162,800 yearly SO's and 3* Elite status. I'm not sure where everyone is getting their information on what exactly their current ownership converts to, but from the looks of it, I would have 5,100 points with the new Abound program. With my StarOptions, I can book 1 week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O, but with the new program it looks like I won't have enough points to do that. Am I getting this right? If so, that sucks.

With all of these changes pending, are there any actions I should take immediately? Like banking my SO's or making reservations before this all goes bonkers?

Any helpful information any of you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I'm just now trying to get up to speed.

Thanks,
Josh


----------



## Jimmyboy

kozykritter said:


> Also if it was a documented corporate sales strategy to target resale owners with the fact that they wouldn't be Abound eligible without a requalification, that would support fraud litigation. A sales person acting on their own is one thing but a corporate policy or approach is something else. All a lawyer would have to do is convince a judge of that systemic possibility (make a prima facie case, likely by gathering a group of owners in that situation together in the lawsuit) to get them to order initial discovery and get all internal MVW documents related to the matter. Not saying there is fraud here, just sharing the reality of how litigation and our US legal system currently functions. If you don't like the way it works, write your local representative



I was told this was the unequivent truth in a sales presentation last month.  I was told I needed purchase at leas 25k in new time share time, "flex which was only available" to bring my 4 mandatory resales into the Abound Program.  It sounds to me that I was not alone receiving this information and other owners were receiving the same information.  If this isn't systemic  fraud and deceit throughout the organization what is?  It was never offered in writing and I suppose I could have a hidden tape recorder and since I didn't buy I really have no damages buy what of those that did?  A class action lawsuit would certainly have some merit.  I personally know people a year ago that requalified severeal resales for the some purpose of being included in the merger.  They have been telling this for lie since Marriott bought Vistana.


----------



## MICROZE

pchung6 said:


> Looks like you have been fooled by sales to retro. You can enroll Abound as resale mandatory without purchase anything.


Looks like I have been fooled twice since I did 2 x Retro/Enrollments.
Can't wait for OCT-01 to see what happens.


----------



## Grandma2016

tamu_bu said:


> I don't believe you have to opt out of abound to participate in SO's. You can pay the abound consolidated fee and still elect: 1. Home resort use at 12 months, 2. SO's and trade within the Vistana resorts at 8 months.
> 
> You're ownership usage doesn't change until you elect to convert your current ownership into VC points (an annual option). Then you can access the Marriott layer of resorts. But you can be part of abound and continue to run your vacation as you have in the past assuming you had the Vistana ownership in record as of 8/8. You won't be required to convert your ownership to club points, it's just a 3rd option.


If you have SO from  Vistana ownership you convert to mvc points can you later elect to use those mvc points to book back at your home resort?   Also if you are at chairman level and have enough mvc points can you book at 13 months at your home resort?  For example i could have 57k mvc points based on my vistana ownership.  If i want to alwas get OF at KOR could i use my chairman level benefit to book 13 months out any numbet of nights i can buy with 57k mvc points


----------



## kozykritter

Joshadelic said:


> Sorry, but I'm confused. I haven't been keeping up with the changes here.
> 
> Am I understanding correctly that we will have the option to just keep our VSN account as it currently is rather than have everything converted to this new Abound program? Other than the fact that I think I will now get lifetime Bonvoy Platinum status, I don't see many other advantages.
> 
> This is what I currently own:
> 1 week SDO "true platinum" studio (67,100 SO's yearly)
> 1 week SVV Bella platinum 2br L/O (95,700 SO's yearly)
> 
> The SDO week was retro'd when I did a transaction with corporate to purchase the SVV week. I don't know if that matters or not. I currently have 162,800 yearly SO's and 3* Elite status. I'm not sure where everyone is getting their information on what exactly their current ownership converts to, but from the looks of it, I would have 5,100 points with the new Abound program. With my StarOptions, I can book 1 week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O, but with the new program it looks like I won't have enough points to do that. Am I getting this right? If so, that sucks.
> 
> With all of these changes pending, are there any actions I should take immediately? Like banking my SO's or making reservations before this all goes bonkers?
> 
> Any helpful information any of you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I'm just now trying to get up to speed.
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh


Sounds like you are actually tracking things pretty well. People that attended sales presentations were given conversion values for their Vistana ownerships and have been reporting in the Vistana to Abound Point Tracker thread. You can look up your units there and find out more exact numbers. At some point the conversion values will also appear on your Vistana.com Dashboard but we don't know when.

I don't see any need to change your behavior from what you have said. There is likely to be very little uptake of the Club Point conversion option for use year 2023 given that lateness in the year, the complexity involved and that outside of TUGers, most owners aren't perhaps as adventurous or tuned it to what is going on.


----------



## kozykritter

Grandma2016 said:


> If you have SO from  Vistana ownership you convert to mvc points can you later elect to use those mvc points to book back at your home resort?   Also if you are at chairman level and have enough mvc points can you book at 13 months at your home resort?  For example i could have 57k mvc points based on my vistana ownership.  If i want to alwas get OF at KOR could i use my chairman level benefit to book 13 months out any numbet of nights i can buy with 57k mvc points


You can book backwards to Vistana properties within Abound with points you have converted. However no Vistana property is bookable from Abound more than 12 months out. The FAQs are very clear on that point.


----------



## capjak

Grandma2016 said:


> If you have SO from  Vistana ownership you convert to mvc points can you later elect to use those mvc points to book back at your home resort?   Also if you are at chairman level and have enough mvc points can you book at 13 months at your home resort?  For example i could have 57k mvc points based on my vistana ownership.  If i want to alwas get OF at KOR could i use my chairman level benefit to book 13 months out any numbet of nights i can buy with 57k mvc points


Per the FAQs: You can not book VSN resorts at 12 months not 13 months even if you convert to "club points".  You can book Marriott Vacation Club resorts at 13 months, however, if you convert.....assuming availability.


----------



## timsi

vacationtime1 said:


> I don't see how this will affect week ownerships.  The inventory pools will be separate for reservation purposes.



Yes and no. They can save for Abound any number of units based on "anticipated Network demand". If you are not quick enough, once the reservation period started, they put aside whatever they want (or so it appears).

"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request.
"

As far as I can tell, they are using this section of the CCRs docs as a backdoor to bulk bank as many units as they please to external exchanges.  This has not been an issue with Interval of course because the deposits were few and far apart. Also, at the time the docs were drafted, Interval was not a sister company and there were checks and balances and Vistana did not have any reason to abuse this clause. This is not how the system was created, not what the owners were being sold and what they have done with Abound may be in clear conflict with the spirit of the exclusive rights of the resort owners:

"Home Resort Fixed Priority Period means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10)
months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the
exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members,
while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network
Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s
Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will
have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period."

Basically they are giving Abound rights that should only exist for resort owners. I would not be surprised if this is challenged eventually, including in the court of law. Hopefully for MVC, their legal department is far superior to their IT department. Although I speculate that part of the mess with their sites  is caused by frequent changes ordered to the IT dept. because certain legal aspects related to Vistana were not properly understood and communicated.


Edited to add: I initially missed that the Network operator is only allowed to reserve for external exchanges  "*from time to time*" so I am not sure how they will leverage that to do it weekly or daily. But I guess when you're judge, jury and executioner,  that's fine.


----------



## Grandma2016

kozykritter said:


> You can book backwards to Vistana properties within Abound with points you have converted. However no Vistana property is bookable from Abound more than 12 months out. The FAQs are very clear on that point.


Thank you


----------



## MICROZE

Jimmyboy said:


> I was told this was the unequivent truth in a sales presentation last month.  *I was told I needed purchase at leas 25k in new time share time*, "flex which was only available" *to bring my 4 mandatory resales into the Abound Program*.  It sounds to me that I was not alone receiving this information and other owners were receiving the same information.  If this isn't systemic  fraud and deceit throughout the organization what is?  It was never offered in writing and I suppose I could have a hidden tape recorder and since I didn't buy I really have no damages buy what of those that did?  A class action lawsuit would certainly have some merit.  I personally know people a year ago that requalified severeal resales for the some purpose of being included in the merger.  They have been telling this for lie since Marriott bought Vistana.


*This *is still what is being communicated as of this Monday's presentation at Westin Nanea.
We did 2 retros [DEC-2019 + APR-2022], and agree that this [no need to retro Mandatory-Resales] could amount to fraud.


----------



## teddyo333

We purchased another Westin Kierland Platinum Plus Premium 1 Bedroom Unit. The title was record date was July 17th and it was forwarded to Vistana's Title department along with the title transfer form on July 20th. Do you think this unit will still qualify to be included in the Abound program? Our Vistana account has still not been updated to include the new unit and the last update we received is that they are running 2 months behind.


----------



## byeloe

tamu_bu said:


> That is probable but not absolute. There could be some differences is the season breakdown that could make some off season and other various weeks a better value in Abound. Coupled with the ability to book at 12 mos club point, it could be an advantage. There is apparantly the complicating factor that you will have to elect club points by approx. the Oct. BEFORE the use year. So you won't be able to see the availability of the Marriott resort you are targeting until 12 mos. out.


pretty sure I said probably   Of course if you own OF on Maui then you could leverage your points to get multiple weeks somewhere else in Abound.


----------



## kozykritter

teddyo333 said:


> We purchased another Westin Kierland Platinum Plus Premium 1 Bedroom Unit. The title was record date was July 17th and it was forwarded to Vistana's Title department along with the title transfer form on July 20th. Do you think this unit will still qualify to be included in the Abound program? Our Vistana account has still not been updated to include the new unit and the last update we received is that they are running 2 months behind.


Based on the information they provided it's really difficult to tell what date is going to matter in the end. Unfortunately unless they send more information it's something we're likely not going to know until Abound actually launches.


----------



## Racing2007

This is the key…..


*What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*

Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.

I think this means owners get first crack, as we will be able to make reservations Friday, Sat, and Sunday for our week and Abound cant book until Tuesday.  Anybody see it another that way?


----------



## Venter

timsi said:


> Yes and no. They can save for Abound any number of units based on "anticipated Network demand". If you are not quick enough, once the reservation period started, they put aside whatever they want (or so it appears).
> 
> "Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
> Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
> any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
> Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
> Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
> of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
> Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
> and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request.
> "
> 
> As far as I can tell, they are using this section of the CCRs docs as a backdoor to bulk bank as many units as they please to external exchanges.  This has not been an issue with Interval of course because the deposits were few and far apart. Also, at the time the docs were drafted, Interval was not a sister company and there were checks and balances and Vistana did not have any reason to abuse this clause. This is not how the system was created, not what the owners were being sold and what they have done with Abound may be in clear conflict with the spirit of the exclusive rights of the resort owners:
> 
> "Home Resort Fixed Priority Period means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10)
> months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the
> exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members,
> while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network
> Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s
> Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will
> have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period."
> 
> Basically they are giving Abound rights that should only exist for resort owners. I would not be surprised if this is challenged eventually, including in the court of law. Hopefully for MVC, their legal department is far superior to their IT department. Although I speculate that part of the mess with their sites  is caused by frequent changes ordered to the IT dept. because certain legal aspects related to Vistana were not properly understood and communicated.


They cannot keep more weeks than what is in the trust or deposited in the trust.  For instance:. If there is 10 units at a resort that means there are 520 weeks.  If the trust owns 10% and 10% of owners deposit Marriott can 'play' with 102 units. So theoretically they can block all holiday weeks but then they cannot supply time any of the other 42 weeks which means members wanting to book wit Abound may not be happy.  I don't think it makes sense for anyone.  Historically Marriott has been fairish managing the MVC system.


----------



## dioxide45

I've added any relevant attachments (3) to the first post. Let me know if there is some other attachments I should include.


----------



## timsi

Racing2007 said:


> This is the key…..
> 
> 
> *What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*
> 
> Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.
> 
> I think this means owners get first crack, as we will be able to make reservations Friday, Sat, and Sunday for our week and Abound cant book until Tuesday.  Anybody see it another that way?


Yes and no, see my comment above. Marriott can block for Abound any number of units if they "anticipate Network demand". They can program their computers to do it a split second after the booking window starts for the resort owners, they do not have to wait until Tuesday.


----------



## byeloe

Grandma2016 said:


> If you have SO from  Vistana ownership you convert to mvc points can you later elect to use those mvc points to book back at your home resort?   Also if you are at chairman level and have enough mvc points can you book at 13 months at your home resort?  For example i could have 57k mvc points based on my vistana ownership.  If i want to alwas get OF at KOR could i use my chairman level benefit to book 13 months out any numbet of nights i can buy with 57k mvc points


Yes you could do this but for the most part you would only elect Abound if you wanted to go to a marriott property.   If you try to book back in to your home resort in your season then you wouldn't have enough points because of the skim.   Even Marriott suggests that you compare all of your options.  It is likely that if you are interested in any of the VSN properties then you should just use your staroptions  to book.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> If I opt out and stay within VSN will that keep the 2 year banking alive for 5* just in that system or is that going to also take the haircut?


I think the rules stay as they are under Abound. The only thing that changes if you opt out is the fee structure.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I think the rules stay as they are under Abound. The only thing that changes if you opt out is the fee structure.


According to the FAQs it shows banking deadline backing up to October from December 31.  I'm just not clear on if that's for Abound Club Points or Vistana StarOptions or both.  As a 5* elite, I'm hoping if I don't elect Abound Club Points then my banking deadline remains at Dec 31.


----------



## Jimmyboy

In VSN there are only 6 Mandatory Ownership out of 23 Voluntary including Flex which means all these non mandatory resells will not be in the Abound Program and will not be able to free up there time for Marriott people.  My understanding is that all the Marriott People are included in their exchange program and can participate and have 3 times the properties so it seems to be there will be a rather large imbalance of owners seeking Marriott to VSN owners.


----------



## Sv1plat52

I did not see any comments regarding Marriot Elite Owners being able to book at 13 weeks.

So 8 weeks just became a 3rd layer of what ever is left for the bottom feeders.


----------



## kozykritter

cubigbird said:


> According to the FAQs it shows banking deadline backing up to October from December 31.  I'm just not clear on if that's for Abound Club Points or Vistana StarOptions or both.  As a 5* elite, I'm hoping if I don't elect Abound Club Points then my banking deadline remains at Dec 31.


The banking changes apply to both StarOptions and Club Points. They will apply in VSN regardless of any participation in Abound. You can verify this on the new VSN recognition level benefit sheets attached to the first post on this thread. I'll also attach it to this post.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Now the dust is settling I'm so looking forward to the publication of that "VSN For Dummies" I was asking for earlier in the year


----------



## cubigbird

kozykritter said:


> The banking changes apply to both StarOptions and Club Points. They will apply in VSN regardless of any participation in Abound.


Sounds like typical Marriott and their history of what they did to the old SPG program.  What was valuable at VSN 5* elite is basically being taken away.  Less reason and less value in buying more for the elite level.


----------



## Jayco29D

byeloe said:


> Yes you could do this but for the most part you would only elect Abound if you wanted to go to a marriott property.   If you try to book back in to your home resort in your season then you wouldn't have enough points because of the skim.   Even Marriott suggests that you compare all of your options.  It is likely that if you are interested in any of the VSN properties then you should just use your staroptions  to book.



Other than booking at your home resort, there are many factors that could cause someone to convert to Abound instead of using VSN/SOs even if they want to go to a Vistana property. For example, if you can get 8350 Club Points with a WKOVR/N property, you could visit many Vistana properties with those Club points depending on season - and even sometimes in prime season - in larger units than you can using SOs. Another reason could be to reserve at 12 months instead of 8 months.


----------



## kozykritter

cubigbird said:


> Sounds like typical Marriott and their history of what they did to the old SPG program.  What was valuable at 5* elite is basically being taken away.


Yes we SPG folk have PTSD about Marriott taking stuff away from us!


----------



## Jayco29D

I think the Vistana program is looking more complicated than it really is because people are posting a lot of contract language. Once things calm down, you can usually whittle these programs down to a few key points.


----------



## cubigbird

kozykritter said:


> Yes we SPG folk have PTSD about Marriott taking stuff away from us!


Not to get off topic but the last 6-7 years have been nothing but a race to the bottom for hotel/timeshare and airline elite programs.  Marriott isn't the only guilty party, look at Hilton, American Airlines, United etc.

Owners need to send correspondence about their displeasure of these adverse changes like we did way back when VSE tried to implement that home resort reservation fee and backed off.  That's the only way change is possible.


----------



## byeloe

Jayco29D said:


> Other than booking at your home resort, there are many factors that could cause someone to convert to Abound instead of using VSN/SOs even if they want to go to a Vistana property. For example, if you can get 8350 Club Points with a WKOVR/N property, you could visit many Vistana properties with those Club points depending on season - and even sometimes in prime season - in larger units than you can using SOs. Another reason could be to reserve at 12 months instead of 8 months.


Maui units are the exception


----------



## dioxide45

WOuld anyone be able to decipher this?

_Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. *If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.*_
Does this mean that if you are grandfathered into a lower status than the number of Abound Club Points would otherwise dictate, you would have to buy something in order to move up to the level based on point values?


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

byeloe said:


> Maui units are the exception


At last, something to celebrate for spending $45K in 2005 and $2K-$3K in MF every year since


----------



## kozykritter

Trying to understand your question. Let's say a three-star VSN is grandfathered into Executive as has been determined but their number of Club Points would qualify them to be Presidential. Since they qualify for a higher level, the grandfathering at the lower level would go away and not act as a backstop or anything if their number of points dropped and they moved down from Presidential. The grandfathering is a one-time event related to some change, in this case the launch of the affiliation. For example I'm three star so I'm grandfathered to Executive but my combined points is just under 6,000. If my points go lower than what they are at the time I'm grandfathered then I drop to a lower recognition level and lose any grandfathering rights and have to earn higher levels based upon my combined point level only.


----------



## SteveS1

dioxide45 said:


> WOuld anyone be able to decipher this?
> 
> _Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. *If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.*_
> Does this mean that if you are grandfathered into a lower status than the number of Abound Club Points would otherwise dictate, you would have to buy something in order to move up to the level based on point values?


I think it’s saying if you are grandfathered in for a benefit level then sell a VOI that got you to that level  then they’ll recalculate your status only based on club points.

If thats right then I wonder what will happen if  HRA goes solo, since my resale then requaled HRA was needed to reach  4* (/ presidential).

I also have the same concern as @DanCali about having to pay the vsn fee for HRA in addition to club fees for my ownerships that are in Abound.


----------



## kozykritter

SteveS1 said:


> I thibk  it’s saying if you are grandfathered in for a benefit level then sell a VOI that got you to that level  then they’ll recalculate your status only based on club points.
> 
> If thats right then I wonder what will happen if  HRA goes solo, since my resale then requaled HRA was needed to reach  4* (/ chairman).
> 
> I also have the same concern as @DanCali about having to pay the vsn fee for HRA in addition to club fees for my ownerships that are in Abound.


I don't think Vistana has ever had a property leave the network since Starwood launched the current timeshare system... though my brain tells me maybe the Villas at Cave Creek were part of the system once or maybe that was MVC. Regardless, given the extraordinary nature of such an event, I feel like they might grandfather affected owners at their current recognition levels which of course would be subject to change if your points dropped due to changes in your other VOIs.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> I think the question is for an existing Abound owner, whether there is an additional VSN club dues when you acquire mandatory resale weeks in the future.


I’m in this exact situation, I had a deed signed in 8/9 yet recorded on 8/19. I’m also in contract to sell a unit which I may back out of now. If I’m reading the bullet about Club dues, as long as the deeds are set up the same there will only be one club dues if you have Abound eligibility and a VSN only VOI.


----------



## DeniseM

kozykritter said:


> I don't think Vistana has ever had a property leave the network since Starwood launched the current timeshare system... though my brain tells me maybe the Villas at Cave Creek were part of the system once or maybe that was MVC. Regardless, given the extraordinary nature of such an event, I feel like they might grandfather affected owners at their current recognition levels which of course would be subject to change if your points dropped due to changes in your other VOIs.



Villas at Cave Creek was part of the Starwood/Staroption system when their BOD decided to pull out.


----------



## CPNY

Help me understand….. I only have mandatory resale units purchase prior to 8/8. I do not qualify for bonvoy status currently. I lost that eligibility when I sold my developer purchase. Being that my resale units will be abound eligible, does that mean I’ll now have bonvoy platinum status (if I’m at executive level or higher)


----------



## CPNY

When will they release charts?? The fact that they made the date cutoff 8/8 yet released the actual program details 8/24 is pathetic. Another slap in the face to vistana owners.


----------



## kyaustin

CPNY said:


> When will they release charts?? The fact that they made the date cutoff 8/8 yet released the actual program details 8/24 is pathetic. Another slap in the face to vistana owners.



I sort of thought it was the opposite; that sales had been telling everyone for years this was happening and we thought perhaps it would never happen....but notice is not something I'd fault them with since this has been chugging on for years.  Though the exact date, yes, I get it and agree; but what is the alternative?  Even if they told us the date on July 8, I don't think there would have been enough time to close and enroll.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Help me understand….. I only have mandatory resale units purchase prior to 8/8. I do not qualify for bonvoy status currently. I lost that eligibility when I sold my developer purchase. Being that my resale units will be abound eligible, does that mean I’ll now have bonvoy platinum status (if I’m at executive level or higher)


If your VOIs qualify, then you should get Bonvoy status based on the ownership level you qualify for. In your case it is Bonvoy Platinum based on Abound Executive.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> When will they release charts?? The fact that they made the date cutoff 8/8 yet released the actual program details 8/24 is pathetic. Another slap in the face to vistana owners.


Which charts are you referring to? How many Abound Club Points you will receive for your VOIs, or how many Club Points to book a specific use period? We already have the latter but are only piecing together the former based on owner reported information from sales presentations.


----------



## Grandma2016

byeloe said:


> Yes you could do this but for the most part you would only elect Abound if you wanted to go to a marriott property.   If you try to book back in to your home resort in your season then you wouldn't have enough points because of the skim.   Even Marriott suggests that you compare all of your options.  It is likely that if you are interested in any of the VSN properties then you should just use your staroptions  to book.


But


Racing2007 said:


> This is the key…..
> 
> 
> *What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*
> 
> Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.
> 
> I think this means owners get first crack, as we will be able to make reservations Friday, Sat, and Sunday for our week and Abound cant book until Tuesday.  Anybody see it another that way?


Makes sense


----------



## CPNY

kyaustin said:


> I sort of thought it was the opposite; that sales had been telling everyone for years this was happening and we thought perhaps it would never happen....but notice is not something I'd fault them with since this has been chugging on for years.  Though the exact date, yes, I get it and agree; but what is the alternative?  Even if they told us the date on July 8, I don't think there would have been enough time to close and enroll.


Well I think when you roll out the exactly details like today is when the cutoff should occur. Also, Marriott sales reps are known liars so there’s that


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Which charts are you referring to? How many Abound Club Points you will receive for your VOIs, or how many Club Points to book a specific use period? We already have the latter but are only piecing together the former based on owner reported information from sales presentations.


Looking to see what level I will be at with my current VOI’s that will dictate whether or not I proceed with my sale. I unfortunately have a one bedroom SVV being transferred post 8/8 that I no longer need.


----------



## kyaustin

CPNY said:


> Well I think when you roll out the exactly details like today is when the cutoff should occur. Also, Marriott sales reps are known liars so there’s that



Agree on both, the date should have been today or whenever they rolled out the policy....but given the time to close, and transfer it doesn't really matter in the end as you'd have no chance to buy, get the deed, close, and transfer into your name regardless if you haven't already purchased months ago.


----------



## CPNY

kyaustin said:


> Agree on both, the date should have been today or whenever they rolled out the policy....but given the time to close, and transfer it doesn't really matter in the end as you'd have no chance to buy, get the deed, close, and transfer into your name regardless if you haven't already purchased months ago.


Not true. I had a deed signed on 8/9 but recorded 8/19 and sent to vistana on 8/19. So having it today would have been in my favor. I don’t care too much as long as I don’t have to pay another 230 just for that unit. If I do then I’ll just let it foreclose.


----------



## TravelTime

We knew this new program was coming for sure early this year. The integrated program information was in the resorts in March from what I recall. So the 8/9 cut off date is pretty late in the game. It gave people 5 months to finish any resale closings.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> Not true. I had a deed signed on 8/9 but recorded 8/19 and sent to vistana on 8/19. So having it today would have been in my favor. I don’t care too much as long as I don’t have to pay another 230 just for that unit. If I do then I’ll just let it foreclose.


The way the information from them reads now, you won't have to pay a separate club fee for that unit because the $230 combined fee covers VSN and Abound dues including all the transactional fees. Even though your unit is limited to VSN it is still covered by that one fee as part of the VSN. This only applies of course if it's a mandatory unit from Bella or Key West phases as you know.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Not true. I had a deed signed on 8/9 but recorded 8/19 and sent to vistana on 8/19. So having it today would have been in my favor. I don’t care too much as long as I don’t have to pay another 230 just for that unit. If I do then I’ll just let it foreclose.


I suspect the information about the program was shared internally on or around the 8th/9th. They thus didn't want to push the date to the full rollout in October as some salespeople would certainly use the privileged information to their advantage and buy up a bunch of mandatory resales.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> The way the information from them reads now, you won't have to pay a separate club fee for that unit because the $230 combined fee covers VSN and Abound dues including all the transactional fees. Even though your unit is limited to VSN it is still covered by that one fee as part of the VSN.


That’s what I figured….. but would that unit be included in free interval exchanges, no banking fees in VSN, and other al a carte fees going away?


----------



## vistana101

I wish they would release the Club Point values for current Vistana VOIs, but I'm pleased with the amount of information and resources they have shared thus far. Not everything is perfect, but looks like they tried to do the right thing in many regards. I'm a big fan of the elite-level grandfathering (including the new Marriott Platinum dedication) and the continuance of the ability to convert to Bonvoy points entirely and annually (unlike Marriott's system). Happy to be a Vistana owner today!


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect the information about the program was shared internally on or around the 8th/9th. They thus didn't want to push the date to the full rollout in October as some salespeople would certainly use the privileged information to their advantage and buy up a bunch of mandatory resales.


They way they rolled this program out was just terrible. It allowed for a lot of lies to be spun by their sales team to scare owners into “upgrading”. Marriott did a great job giving themselves enough time to lie to owners to sell more points.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> That’s what I figured….. but would that unit be included in free interval exchanges, no banking fees in VSN, and other al a carte fees going away?


Yes that's what the combined fee is all about, combining in the transactional fees. If you somehow were able to opt out of the combined fee then they would charge you the basic VSN fee of $170 and then you would pay for all of those transactional fees that you were just listing.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> Yes that's what the combined fee is all about, combining in the transactional fees. If you somehow were able to opt out of the combined fee then they would charge you the basic VSN fee of $170 and then you would pay for all of those transactional fees that you were just listing.


I don’t care if that one unit isn’t in abound for club points conversions, but it will be fine as a trader or SO ownership.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> They way they rolled this program out was just terrible. It allowed for a lot of lies to be spun by their sales team to scare owners into “upgrading”. Marriott did a great job giving themselves enough time to lie to owners to sell more points.


Indeed. They were basically boasting and doing victory laps at their last earnings call over their tremendous sales and then of course it made me sick to my stomach to learn that likely so many people purchased who didn't need to to access Abound after being misled.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> Indeed. They were basically boasting and doing victory laps at their last earnings call over their tremendous sales and then of course it made me sick to my stomach to learn that likely so many people purchased who didn't need to to access Abound after being misled.


Bingo!


----------



## CPNY

robertk2012 said:


> It’s really sad that some members of this forum were pushing the same narrative.


Some of us “stuck to our guns” and said they wouldn’t leave mandatory resale units out. Seems we were also correct in saying they would try and decimate the VSN


----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> It’s likely “insiders” were doing this already.


Probably, and they decided to put a stop to it.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Probably, and they decided to put a stop to it.


I believe that the mandatory resorts started to be  more expensive last year. I bet many have known about it for a long time.


----------



## CPNY

@Ken555 where are you in all of this! I need to hear your thoughts!


----------



## Ken555

I haven’t read every new page nor all the posts here. From what I’ve gathered, if I bought a new WKV (or other mandatory VSN property) I will be able to use it within VSN as we have done for many years in future. However, I would not be able to use it within Abound for exchanging to non-VSN locations that are within the greater network (other than traditional II exchanges). Of course, this would continue until and unless there is simply insufficient availability within VSN.

Is this correct? TIA.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> @Ken555 where are you in all of this! I need to hear your thoughts!



I took several weeks off from TUG and I must admit I feel so much better. This place feels more like flyertalk every year, and I dislike that so if it continues you wont see me as often as in the past.

As for the new changes, see my post above, I’m still reading. I’ll be at one of the VSN resorts this weekend but unless they offer me gazillions of devalued bonvoy points I doubt I’ll have the stomach to handle a meeting. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Westnick

Eligible VOIs:

Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level
Not sure if my mandatory resale units are eligible.  What or who is a authorized resale agent?


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> Some of us “stuck to our guns” and said they wouldn’t leave mandatory resale units out. Seems we were also correct in saying they would try and decimate the VSN


I knew  they wound not leave mandatory resales out because they want the Maui weeks in Abound and gave those units a lot of club points to entice them. Charging an enrollment fee is cutting of your nose to spite your face.


----------



## Ken555

As an aside, I want to say that I’m glad we finally have some facts to discuss. Years of what ifs is bad for the soul. So even if this new program ultimately ends up devaluing our ownership, I’m just glad this time of waiting is over. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> I haven’t read every new page nor all the posts here. From what I’ve gathered, if I bought a new WKV (or other mandatory VSN property) I will be able to use it within VSN as we have done for many years in future. However, I would not be able to use it within Abound for exchanging to non-VSN locations that are within the greater network (other than traditional II exchanges). Of course, this would continue until and unless there is simply insufficient availability within VSN.
> 
> Is this correct? TIA.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As long as you purchased your WKV unit prior to 8/8 then it will be eligible for abound. When they said if you don’t want to use abound, you can continue to use your ownership as you do today, it was a lie. Starting in a year or two, banked star options have to be used within 1 year unless you’re a presidential or chairman owner. In which case you’ll receive 1.5 or two years to use your options. This will push more to convert to abound. Banking deadlines have shifted a bit. So July 1 still stands for most owners but abound election is in October.


----------



## Grandma2016

kozykritter said:


> You can book backwards to Vistana properties within Abound with points you have converted. However no Vistana property is bookable from Abound more than 12 months out. The FAQs are very clear on that point.


But it is bookable at 12 months?  What im trying to achieve is 4 weeks OF at kor.  My ownership is worth 57k club points.  I could try to book at 12 months with mvc points? ????


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> As long as you purchased your WKV unit prior to 8/8 then it will be eligible for abound. When they said if you don’t want to use abound, you can continue to use your ownership as you do today, it was a lie. Starting in a year or two, banked star options have to be used within 1 year unless you’re a presidential or chairman owner. In which case you’ll receive 1.5 or two years to use your options. This will push more to convert to abound. Banking deadlines have shifted a bit. So July 1 still stands for most owners but abound election is in October.



I’m referring to new resale purchases. If I buy a new resale mandatory deed, what are my capabilities with it? I read some parts of the announcements and it seems the language is such that those purchases would not be in Abound, but would be in VSN. Is that incorrect?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> As long as you purchased your WKV unit prior to 8/8 then it will be eligible for abound. When they said if you don’t want to use abound, you can continue to use your ownership as you do today, it was a lie. Starting in a year or two, banked star options have to be used within 1 year unless you’re a presidential or chairman owner. In which case you’ll receive 1.5 or two years to use your options. This will push more to convert to abound. Banking deadlines have shifted a bit. So July 1 still stands for most owners but abound election is in October.


This is their way of reducing VSN to ruble.


----------



## timsi

Ken555 said:


> As an aside, I want to say that I’m glad we finally have some facts to discuss. Years of what ifs is bad for the soul. So even if this new program ultimately ends up devaluing our ownership, I’m just glad this time of waiting is over.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


In some cases, "devaluing the ownership" is a big understatement. If you own Wkv and want to go to Maui and the week you want is in Abound not in VSN you probably lost 50% of the value.


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> I’m referring to new resale purchases. If I buy a new resale mandatory deed, what are my capabilities with it? I read some parts of the announcements and it seems the language is such that those purchases would not be in Abound, but would be in VSN. Is that incorrect?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes it would be in VSN and not Abound.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> I’m referring to new resale purchases. If I buy a new resale mandatory deed, what are my capabilities with it? I read some parts of the announcements and it seems the language is such that those purchases would not be in Abound, but would be in VSN. Is that incorrect?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s what I understand. As long as the deed is set up the same. I’m in that situation currently. I have a  was recorded and sent to Marriott 8/19. It won’t be eligible for abound but it should be included in the one club dues. At least that’s what I’m hoping. If they try and rip me off for an additional 150 or 230 I’ll just let it foreclose.


----------



## Red elephant

timsi said:


> In some cases, "devaluing the ownership" is a big understatement. If you own Wkv and want to go to Maui and the week you want is in Abound not in VSN you probably lost 50% of the value.


The purpose is to prevent mandatory owners as well as other owners from going to Maui. Those weeks will be in Abound and it will cost a whole bunch of club points to go there .


----------



## dioxide45

Westnick said:


> Eligible VOIs:
> 
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level
> Not sure if my mandatory resale units are eligible.  What or who is a authorized resale agent?


THe second bullet is what applies for mandatory resales. When did you acquire your VOIs?


----------



## Red elephant

If you want Maui you buy more club points to get there. Your staroptions will no longer help you once those weeks are in Abound. Same with Lagunamar .


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> The purpose is to prevent mandatory owners as well as other owners from going to Maui. Those weeks will be in Abound and it will cost a whole bunch of club points to go there .


I wonder if this will actually increase resale prices for those high demand places. I’ll buy some mandatory interval traders if they will be included in my new club dues and qualify for free interval exchanges but not abound access


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> THe second bullet is what applies for mandatory resales. When did you acquire your VOIs?


But doesn’t enrolled technically mean “retro”? So maybe all mandatory resale units don’t count unless they were enrolled via a vistana purchase?


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I wonder if this will actually increase resale prices for those high demand places. I’ll buy some mandatory interval traders if they will be included in my new club dues and qualify for free interval exchanges but not abound access


It should as they only way to get there in the near future is to own there.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> But doesn’t enrolled technically mean “retro”? So maybe all mandatory resale units don’t count unless they were enrolled via a vistana purchase?


They didn't define "enrolled" anywhere, but I would argue my ability to use StarOptions in VSN means my VOIs are enrolled in VSN.

I would think if they intended to purposely exclude mandatory resales, they would have worded it differently.


----------



## timsi

Red elephant said:


> If you want Maui you buy more club points to get there. Your staroptions will no longer help you once those weeks are in Abound. Same with Lagunamar .


Exactly. But people are not that stupid. Many will be very angry when they see they can no longer find the availability in VSN and the flex they bought last year has just become A LOT more expensive overnight. They were sold  based on the existing StarOptions chart and they will pay the Abound price. Wait for the owners updates nexxt year!


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> They didn't define "enrolled" anywhere, but I would argue my ability to use StarOptions in VSN means my VOIs are enrolled in VSN.


I agree and that’s how I would interpret it however, this is Marriott, their make their own rules


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> Exactly. But people are not that stupid. Many will be very angry when they see they can no longer find the availability in VSN and the flex they bought last year has just become A LOT more expensive overnight. They were sold  based on the existing StarOptions chart and they will pay the Abound price. Wait for the owners updates nexxt year!


Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.


----------



## dsmrp

Anyone care to comment on renting points?

*Can I rent my Club Points to another VSN Member?*

_No, you may not rent your Club Points to another VSN Member_.
Don't Marriott owners rent DC points to each other? Taking the above statement literally, we can instead rent out Abound pts to a Marriott DC member?? 

I was hoping to rent out my Abound pts occasionally in the years we're traveling to places with few timeshares.

We can 'transfer' , but not rent, right?


----------



## VacationForever

dsmrp said:


> Anyone care to comment on renting points?
> 
> *Can I rent my Club Points to another VSN Member?*
> 
> _No, you may not rent your Club Points to another VSN Member_.
> Don't Marriott owners rent DC points to each other? Taking the above statement literally, we can instead rent out Abound pts to a Marriott DC member??
> 
> I was hoping to rent out my Abound pts occasionally in the years we're traveling to places with few timeshares.
> 
> We can 'transfer' , but not rent, right?


You can rent Abound Club points to another Abound Club member.  Just like I cannot rent my DC points to a VSN member currently - different currency.


----------



## kozykritter

Grandma2016 said:


> But it is bookable at 12 months?  What im trying to achieve is 4 weeks OF at kor.  My ownership is worth 57k club points.  I could try to book at 12 months with mvc points? ????


Yes, if the inventory exists in Abound to do it. They've already announced that they expect there to be limited inventory for Vistana properties until it really gets rolling, which may not be until 2024 use year or beyond.


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.


My prediction is that Marriott will continue to permit some availability in VSN ... for a while, even if it means to deposit strategically some of the units they own. They will not want to be acused of a huge devaluation and cheating all those developer owners who bought based on the StarOptions chart. After 3 or 5 years though,  when the memory fades and the legal case weakens, the inventory will likely look very different.


----------



## MICROZE

Westnick said:


> Eligible VOIs:
> 
> Are those that *are enrolled* in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that *were enrolled* in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level
> Not sure if my mandatory resale units are eligible.  What or who is a authorized resale agent?


I too am very interested in finding out the definition of *"Enrolled"*.

*Following Examples*

If my contract [Voluntary or Mandatory] is _"Developer-Direct"_, then there is no such thing as "Enrolled" or "Non-Enrolled".
This has always [and possible will] enjoyed full benefits.

If my contract *[Voluntary]* is _"Resale-Voluntary"_, it is *NOT* eligible to participate in the VSN and does *NOT *count toward my VSN-Elite status.
The 2 options are "Home-Resort or Interval.

If my contract *[Mandatory]* is _"Resale-Mandatory"_, it is eligible to participate in the VSN but does *NOT *count toward my VSN-Elite status.
The 3 options are "Home-Resort or Interval or VSN.

If my contract *[Mandatory]* is _"Resale-Mandatory"_, and *retroed* [purchased something Dev-Direct], it counts toward my VSN-Elite-Status.
The 4 options are "Home-Resort or Interval or VSN or Bonvoy-Points. Same as 1-Above.

I fear that on OCT-01-2022 [no matter what transpires] there's going to be a bunch of unhappy people.

If we enrolled Mandatory-Resale units that didn't need to be enrolled, I [and possibly few others like me] will not be happy.
If the definition of "Enrolled" is what I think it is there's going to be a lot of unhappy people.


----------



## Grandma2016

kozykritter said:


> Yes, if the inventory exists in Abound to do it. They've already announced that they expect there to be limited inventory for Vistana properties until it really gets rolling, which may not be until 2024 use year or beyond.


I doubt many OF owners at KOR will give up their OF.


----------



## robertk2012

I will absolutely elect Abound points some years.  I only wish I had purchased more.  


Grandma2016 said:


> I doubt many OF owners at KOR will give up their OF.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I wonder if this will actually increase resale prices for those high demand places. I’ll buy some mandatory interval traders if they will be included in my new club dues and qualify for free interval exchanges but not abound access



This is exactly why I asked the earlier question. What are the real benefits for "mandatory" deeds post-August 8? VSN exchanges (or so it seems), II trades (including Marriott, I believe), etc with a single annual fixed fee. This may actually be the new method to derive benefit from the network, and mean that SDO (for example) retains significant value. You just wouldn't be able to use it within Abound.

Is this wrong?

I've been generally happy with my II trades over the years. They won't want to nerf the entire program so I suspect there will be ways to get value, even if it's not the method we used previously.


----------



## Ken555

Grandma2016 said:


> I doubt many OF owners at KOR will give up their OF.



Yet those units have been available within VSN for internal trading, though not many. Some will doubtless trade.


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> This is exactly why I asked the earlier question. What are the real benefits for "mandatory" deeds post-August 8? VSN exchanges (or so it seems), II trades (including Marriott, I believe), etc with a single annual fixed fee. This may actually be the new method to derive benefit from the network, and mean that SDO (for example) retains significant value. You just wouldn't be able to use it within Abound.
> 
> Is this wrong?
> 
> I've been generally happy with my II trades over the years. They won't want to nerf the entire program so I suspect there will be ways to get value, even if it's not the method we used previously.


Resale SDO that is not in VSN will trade in II but you will need to pay exchange fees.  To me, it is certainly not an ideal situation.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> As long as you purchased your WKV unit prior to 8/8 then it will be eligible for abound. When they said if you don’t want to use abound, you can continue to use your ownership as you do today, it was a lie. Starting in a year or two, banked star options have to be used within 1 year unless you’re a presidential or chairman owner. In which case you’ll receive 1.5 or two years to use your options. This will push more to convert to abound. Banking deadlines have shifted a bit. So July 1 still stands for most owners but abound election is in October.



Other than the obvious point discrepancy when using Abound to trade as compared with our ability within VSN, is banking the only other devaluation you see with the new program for VSN owners?


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> Resale SDO that is not in VSN will trade in II but you will need to pay exchange fees.  To me, it is certainly not an ideal situation.



In other words, it's the same as it is today, correct? No change?


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> Yes it would be in VSN and not Abound.



So... if I buy another WKV 148k week today I will be able to use it as I have always done, subject to availability and the new banking rules. What am I missing?


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> In other words, it's the same as it is today, correct? No change?


Yes, no change.  I try to not pay II exchange fees.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> Yes, no change.  I try to not pay II exchange fees.



Ok. I try to get great resorts at reasonable rates. I have four weeks over the next year in Hawaii using my SDO weeks via II, and I don't mind paying the exchange fees for those reservations. I suspect that trading ability will remain in future.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.


It’s not a scam as long  as you buy where you want to go. You can only take advantage of certain loop holes for so long.


----------



## Red elephant

robertk2012 said:


> I will absolutely elect Abound points some years.  I only wish I had purchased more.


You can still purchase more for your use and deposit the one you have now into Abound for the club points.


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> It’s not a scam as long  as you buy where you want to go. You can only take advantage of certain loop holes for so long.



By "loop holes" you mean internal VSN trading?


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> So... if I buy another WKV 148k week today I will be able to use it as I have always done, subject to availability and the new banking rules. What am I missing?


Except as time goes by there likely will be decreased inventory in VSN for places like Maui and Lagunamar because a lot of owners will eventual want club points instead of playing in VSN.


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> By "loop holes" you mean internal VSN trading?


Yes.


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> Except as time goes by there likely will be decreased inventory in VSN for places like Maui and Lagunamar because a lot of owners will eventual want club points instead of playing in VSN.



Ok. That’s what I meant by “subject to availability”.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> Yes.



VSN trading is not a loop hole.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> VSN trading is not a loop hole.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes it is for mandatory resales .


----------



## DavidnRobin

Turns out not to impact our VOIs at all.
WKORV OFD (Requal)
WKV Plat+ x2 (Resale)
WPORV EOY (Developer)

WSJ VGV Gold+ x2 (gave away)

Outside of Covid - don’t need banking.
Could care less about Abound

If our WKV Plat+ loses power in VSN (for reserving Maui) - will continue to rent or use.

We bought where we want to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> Yes it is for mandatory resales .



Using VSN for mandatory resales is not a loop hole. It’s an integral component of the program. A loop hole is something else altogether.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pchung6

Red elephant said:


> You can still purchase more for your use and deposit the one you have now into Abound for the club points.


Be careful to purchase more for II trade. We have noticed II has lowered trade power on some of famous VSN traders recently. Until we find out the new trade power on SBP SDO SVV, you better put it on hold.


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> Using VSN for mandatory resales is not a loop hole. It’s an integral component of the program. A loop hole is something else altogether.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
> Ok. But Marriott does not look at it that way and has decided to end that integral part of VSN going forward. VSN will be diminished as more people deposit their week in Abound as the years go by and therefore mandatory resale will loose its value.


----------



## Red elephant

pchung6 said:


> Be careful to purchase more for II trade. We have noticed II has lowered trade power on some of famous VSN traders recently. Until we find out the new trade power on SBP SDO SVV, you better put it on hold.


I was talking about purchasing for use not to trade.


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> Ok. But Marriott does not look at it that way and has decided to end that integral part of VSN going forward. VSN will be diminished as more people deposit their week in Abound as the years go by and therefore mandatory resale will loose its value.



You've made a number of assumptions not based in fact.

1. Using VSN is not a "loop hole". VSN (and SVN before it) was specifically designed as a means to have an internal trading process within the VSN properties.
2. We have ALL postulated (for years) that changing trade value and process could impact internal trading. Now we know that there will be different types of inventory and it is likely availability within VSN will be less than in previous years.
3. Mandatory resales may lose value if the perception (and/or fact) of VSN trading is more difficult.
4. Who knows how Marriott looks at it, and I don't care what they think - I only care about the written program policies and procedures. Certainly their sales staff will have a poor opinion of VSN, and perhaps that's what you're referring to with this comment. This is akin to saying that trading within Abound is a loop hole...and it's not.


----------



## Ken555

These new policies start in 2023, but do they apply to all reservations in 2023 including those made with banked SOs from previous years? 

For example, if I have several bookings next year with banked SOs will I be charged a housekeeping fee as in past years? I think not - is that the consensus?


----------



## pchung6

Red elephant said:


> I was talking about purchasing for use not to trade.


Ok. Just keep in mind Marriott is not your friend. They won’t be nice to Vistana people. They will slowly take everything away from Vistana, just like what they did to Starwood. I wouldn’t buy anything even for use at this moment. I might start looking Hilton or Hyatt just like what I did for my business trip now.


----------



## kozykritter

Ken555 said:


> So... if I buy another WKV 148k week today I will be able to use it as I have always done, subject to availability and the new banking rules. What am I missing?


Yes that should be the case based upon the FAQs they've shared. The whole date thing only has to do with eligibility for using Abound. VSN usage doesn't change except for some ancillary things like banking.


----------



## magicjourney

Does anyone know if resale sheraton/westin flex points will be able to enroll in Abound and elect to receive Club Points?


----------



## kozykritter

magicjourney said:


> Does anyone know if resale sheraton/westin flex points will be able to enroll in Abound and elect to receive Club Points?


Not unless you made a purchase from Vistana to requalify them before August 9th.


----------



## dioxide45

magicjourney said:


> Does anyone know if resale sheraton/westin flex points will be able to enroll in Abound and elect to receive Club Points?


Only if they participate in VSN.


----------



## teddyo333

MICROZE said:


> I too am very interested in finding out the definition of *"Enrolled"*.
> 
> *Following Examples*
> 
> If my contract [Voluntary or Mandatory] is _"Developer-Direct"_, then there is no such thing as "Enrolled" or "Non-Enrolled".
> This has always [and possible will] enjoyed full benefits.
> 
> If my contract *[Voluntary]* is _"Resale-Voluntary"_, it is *NOT* eligible to participate in the VSN and does *NOT *count toward my VSN-Elite status.
> The 2 options are "Home-Resort or Interval.
> 
> If my contract *[Mandatory]* is _"Resale-Mandatory"_, it is eligible to participate in the VSN but does *NOT *count toward my VSN-Elite status.
> The 3 options are "Home-Resort or Interval or VSN.
> 
> If my contract *[Mandatory]* is _"Resale-Mandatory"_, and *retroed*[purchased something Dev-Direct], it counts toward my VSN-Elite-Status.
> The 4 options are "Home-Resort or Interval or VSN or Bonvoy-Points. Same as 1-Above.
> 
> I fear that on OCT-01-2022 [no matter what transpires] there's going to be a bunch of unhappy people.
> 
> If we enrolled Mandatory-Resale units that didn't need to be enrolled, I [and possibly few others like me] will not be happy.
> If the definition of "Enrolled" is what I think it is there's going to be a lot of unhappy people.



Based off of the information given I think that the only change will be with "Example 3." These units will have automatic access to Abound as well as gain elite status. When we attended a presentation in April at WKORV we were initially informed that we would significant amount of Destination points (23,625 points) with the number of units that we owned but when we looked at the documentation closely we noticed that only 11,650 points were enrolled. This amount correlated to the points that were associated with the mandatory units. It appears as that the Marriott is using that as a guideline to determine the number of Abound points to grant an account and associate the appropriate elite level. I've included a copy of the document below. Please note that all of these units were purchased resale and/or transferred to us for free by a tugger. The "Contract Price" is what the original cost of the units were when purchased by the first/previous owner:


----------



## ocdb8r

Ken555 said:


> You've made a number of assumptions not based in fact.
> 
> 1. Using VSN is not a "loop hole". VSN (and SVN before it) was specifically designed as a means to have an internal trading process within the VSN properties.
> 2. We have ALL postulated (for years) that changing trade value and process could impact internal trading. Now we know that there will be different types of inventory and it is likely availability within VSN will be less than in previous years.
> 3. Mandatory resales may lose value if the perception (and/or fact) of VSN trading is more difficult.
> 4. Who knows how Marriott looks at it, and I don't care what they think - I only care about the written program policies and procedures. Certainly their sales staff will have a poor opinion of VSN, and perhaps that's what you're referring to with this comment. This is akin to saying that trading within Abound is a loop hole...and it's not.


I agree with all these points.  

I'll add that aside from any impact on VSN likely being far off or potentially never materializing, the greatest impact is likely to be on specific high demand locations or weeks, such as:

WKORV/N/Nanea - because owners of these weeks are the very few that may see an increased value in trading via Abound compared to VSN (although many tuggers believe they would bet better off just renting their Hawaii week and using the proceeds to rent an Abound week or points);
Mexico - where there is a high percentage held in Aventura and where Lagunamar gets a relatively good Abound point allocation;
Ski weeks - these are ALWAYS a tough trade in every system;
St. John - I actually think this will end up fine....there is a lot of inventory here now that it is ALL timeshares; and
Harborside - big question mark if it will join and how it will be valued.
At the end of the day, I don't anticipate the impact will be that large.  Over time it may be more difficult to use SVN to trade into Maui during prime times and ski weeks, but to this day we see a decent amount of weeks at the Maui locations end up in II (which tells me there is plenty of slack in the system for there to continue to be good Maui exchanges).  If I'm honest, using WKV/SVV StarOptions to trade into prime locations and relative parity was an imbalance waiting to be corrected.  Remember, we have no deeded right to trade into these locations at parity.  At best we've had a right for there to be some internal exchange system but VSN always retained complete flexibility to re-allocate StarOptions as it saw fit (and it did so several times in the past, changing the St. John options and Maui oceanfront options).


----------



## cubigbird

CPNY said:


> Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.


The reason for the scam reputation is that developers aren’t developing new properties to increase inventory.  We haven’t seen a new good amount of inventory for years, if not decades.  This leads to inventory selling out.  Needing to keep the sales machine alive they have to come up with something new and churn.  You won’t fall prey to the churn if you buy where you want to go and use it for that.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> Yes it is for mandatory resales .


It’s not a loop hole. It’s an aspect of ownership and a benefit sold to us when we purchased…. I was told by my sales rep “it’s a benefit they can never take away” she used the word benefit, not loophole.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.



But isn’t it the case that when any new product comes out, the old products ARE outdated? When the iPhone 13 came out, my iPhone 12 became outdated. When the 14 comes out in two weeks, my 12 will be even more outdated because the 14 will do things my 12 doesn’t. If an Apple sales associate pointed that out that doesn’t make iPhone a scam. My 12 may still work for me, as I may not need the new features, but that doesn’t mean it’s not outdated.

Similarly, Abound offers direct points access to more locations than Flex, and some other new features, so that does make Flex outdated. Saying so isn’t a scam. But just like my iPhone 12 still works for me, Flex may still work for many people, but pointing out that there is something new isn’t a scam.


----------



## cubigbird

pchung6 said:


> Ok. Just keep in mind Marriott is not your friend. They won’t be nice to Vistana people. They will slowly take everything away from Vistana, just like what they did to Starwood. I wouldn’t buy anything even for use at this moment. I might start looking Hilton or Hyatt just like what I did for my business trip now.


It had crossed my mind that it might not be bad to “diversify” here and consider other systems and look to buy where we want to go in their system that I can’t get in MVC.

Not to go off topic, but with the changes in Marriott Brilliant AMEX and getting Titanium anyways through 5* elite/Chairmans, I was thinking of switching that AMEX to the Hilton Aspire and getting Diamond status there and seeing what other systems are like.


----------



## teddyo333

cubigbird said:


> It had crossed my mind that it might not be bad to “diversify” here and consider other systems and look to buy where we want to go in their system that I can’t get in MVC.
> 
> Not to go off topic, but with the changes in Marriott Brilliant AMEX and getting Titanium anyways through 5* elite/Chairmans, I was thinking of switching that AMEX to the Hilton Aspire and getting Diamond status there and seeing what other systems are like.




I was considering the same option as it pertains to Hilton Apsire.


----------



## byeloe

ocdb8r said:


> Mexico - where there is a high percentage held in Aventura


Not sure what you meant by this because I don't believe that Adventuras holds much at Lagunamar, I think it was like 70% Cabo and 30% Lagunamar


----------



## ocdb8r

byeloe said:


> Not sure what you meant by this because I don't believe that Adventuras holds much at Lagunamar, I think it was like 70% Cabo and 30% Lagunamar


...and 100% of Westin Cancun.  So, on balance, a high percentage of Mexico.


----------



## dioxide45

teddyo333 said:


> Based off of the information given I think that the only change will be with "Example 3." These units will have automatic access to Abound as well as gain elite status. When we attended a presentation in April at WKORV we were initially informed that we would significant amount of Destination points (23,625 points) with the number of units that we owned but when we looked at the documentation closely we noticed that only 11,650 points were enrolled. This amount correlated to the points that were associated with the mandatory units. It appears as that the Marriott is using that as a guideline to determine the number of Abound points to grant an account and associate the appropriate elite level. I've included a copy of the document below. Please note that all of these units were purchased resale and/or transferred to us for free by a tugger. The "Contract Price" is what the original cost of the units were when purchased by the first/previous owner:
> View attachment 63445View attachment 63446


Can you provide some more information on what you own exactly? What season is each of these line items? What phase at SBP and SVV?


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> It’s not a loop hole. It’s an aspect of ownership and a benefit sold to us when we purchased…. I was told by my sales rep “it’s a benefit they can never take away” she used the word benefit, not loophole.


The StarOption chart has been a core part of ALL Vistana sales presentation. This is not a loop hole. The sales rep would show you few resorts and calculate how much money you "saved" if you bought Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex or even mud season in the mountains. Marriott has known for a very long time how much they would devalue most of the VOIs but they continued to sell based on the SO chart benefits. Even if the details were not public at the time, since their intentions were pretty clear to them, how is this not a case of bait and switch? The ownership is a long term commitment, not something you use for a year. This is not a cell phone plan that you can change after a year.


----------



## blondietink

All I know at this point is that I am mightily confused at this point.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> But isn’t it the case that when any new product comes out, the old products ARE outdated? When the iPhone 13 came out, my iPhone 12 became outdated. When the 14 comes out in two weeks, my 12 will be even more outdated because the 14 will do things my 12 doesn’t. If an Apple sales associate pointed that out that doesn’t make iPhone a scam. My 12 may still work for me, as I may not need the new features, but that doesn’t mean it’s not outdated.
> 
> Similarly, Abound offers direct points access to more locations than Flex, and some other new features, so that does make Flex outdated. Saying so isn’t a scam. But just like my iPhone 12 still works for me, Flex may still work for many people, but pointing out that there is something new isn’t a scam.


As I said above, the ownership is a long term commitment. You buy a phone with the expectation to use it for a year, two or 3. With the timeshare ownership you commit to tens of thousands of dollars in future maintenance fees (not to mention the upfront cost) and and change is extremely costly. You cannot compare a timeshare with an iPhone 12.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> As I said above, the ownership is a long term commitment. You buy a phone with the expectation to use it for a year, two or 3. With the timeshare ownership you commit to tens of thousands of dollars in future maintenance fees (not to mention the upfront cost) and and change is extremely costly. You cannot compare a timeshare with an iPhone 12.


Exactly. They sold people on the premise that they own property, it’s deeded!, it can be passed down to your children, etc. I agree, vacation ownership is not like a piece of electronics.


----------



## sail27bill

Thanks all for analyzing and posting replies in this thread.  I find it most helpful.  

I have a quick question though which I cannot seem to find the answer.  Using II to trade for other Marriott/Vistana units is now free according to my understanding, but what about upgrade costs going from a 2 bedroom to say a 3 bedroom.  Does this still incur the upgrade charge? I use II frequently and am excited about the savings.  I just want to see if the savings will include the upgrade charge as well.

Thanks.


----------



## dioxide45

sail27bill said:


> Thanks all for analyzing and posting replies in this thread.  I find it most helpful.
> 
> I have a quick question though which I cannot seem to find the answer.  Using II to trade for other Marriott/Vistana units is now free according to my understanding, but what about upgrade costs going from a 2 bedroom to say a 3 bedroom.  Does this still incur the upgrade charge? I use II frequently and am excited about the savings.  I just want to see if the savings will include the upgrade charge as well.
> 
> Thanks.


Upgrade fees will still apply.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> As long as you purchased your WKV unit prior to 8/8 then it will be eligible for abound. When they said if you don’t want to use abound, you can continue to use your ownership as you do today, it was a lie. Starting in a year or two, banked star options have to be used within 1 year unless you’re a presidential or chairman owner. In which case you’ll receive 1.5 or two years to use your options. This will push more to convert to abound. Banking deadlines have shifted a bit. So July 1 still stands for most owners but abound election is in October.



If we want to use SOs, can we use them in our current use year and the following use year? In effect, that still gives us to 2 years. Is that correct?


----------



## CPNY

T


TravelTime said:


> If we want to use SOs, can we use them in our current use year and the following use year? In effect, that still gives us to 2 years. Is that correct?


hen one can say it went from 3 years to two


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> If we want to use SOs, can we use them in our current use year and the following use year? In effect, that still gives us to 2 years. Is that correct?



I guess you can view it that way, but then you had 3 years before 

Banking is not reversible though so if you bank options now to 2023 to make a reservation and then cancel and want to make a 2022 reservation, you can't.

But banked Staroptions were interchangeable between years meaning if you bank 2022 Staroptions you can use them for 2023 or 2024 reservations. And you can cancel 2024 and reserve back in 2023. The "banked" category gave you 2 extra years.


----------



## TravelTime

Grandma2016 said:


> I doubt many OF owners at KOR will give up their OF.



I own mandatory resale OF in Maui. I will be converting to Abound, unless I find out I am really not eligible for enrollment. Then I will use my week, rent it or sell it. I will not use SOs.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> If we want to use SOs, can we use them in our current use year and the following use year? In effect, that still gives us to 2 years. Is that correct?



It changes in 2025, but right now banking current year SOs makes them good for two calendar years.  Starting in 2025, the banking deadlines change as do the deadlines to use them.  Based on your other posts, I believe you will be landing as Chairman's Club, which would give you a banking deadline of October 31 and a deadline to use of two calendar years after the current year, so for you this is an improvement on the banking deadline of July 1 for a non-Elite mandatory resale owner.  I believe I'll be landing as a Presidential owner, so will have a banking deadline of August 31 and a deadline to use in the 18 months following the current calendar year, making it an improvement in the deadline for banking from the current July 1 but a reduction in the expiration deadline.  I've got an Encore package with a guaranteed price on Westin Aventuras, so will look and see if there's any benefit for me to buy a package of those points to get to Chairman's Club - there's not much other difference in the benefits (the chart lists a Collette Chairman's Club Tours benefit and some different credits for tours), but the cost looks like it would be less than $10K based on my guesstimate of what my points will be.  Once I find out what a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus and a Studio VGV week 51 are worth, I'll be able to make an informed decision.


----------



## TravelTime

I know people see the banking change as a big negative. I also see it as a negative. OTOH, TUG has always said ”buy where you want to go” because we all know timeshare rules and availability can change. So when I purchased in Vistana, I picked a location I would want to visit even though the MF was one of the highest in the system. I deposited once or twice to use SOs and I lost those SOs during Covid. I probably would have lost them anyway because I could not find a good trade.


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> As I said above, the ownership is a long term commitment. You buy a phone with the expectation to use it for a year, two or 3. With the timeshare ownership you commit to tens of thousands of dollars in future maintenance fees (not to mention the upfront cost) and and change is extremely costly. You cannot compare a timeshare with an iPhone 12.





CPNY said:


> Exactly. They sold people on the premise that they own property, it’s deeded!, it can be passed down to your children, etc. I agree, vacation ownership is not like a piece of electronics.



It’s correct that the two products - timeshares & iPhones - are different, but my comment/comparison was directed at the previous comment that a sales person saying Flex was outdated was a “scam”. Flex IS now outdated. There is something new. But Flex owners can more or less still use that product as they always have, just as I can still use my iPhone 12.

When MVC first introduced the Destination Club in 2010, traditional weeks also became outdated. There was something new. But traditional weeks still work and 40% of MVC owners still are exclusively using weeks and haven’t moved to points 12 years later. Flex and VSN will still work for a long time too. What you bought still works and will continue to work more or less as it always has. The reports of its demise appear to have been greatly exaggerated.


----------



## dsmrp

It's nice to get a Bonvoy tier upgrade, e.g
Select & Executive gets Bonvoy Platinum, but it applies to only 1 designated member on the ownership. Previously spouses on the deeds got the same Bonvoy level. Usually not a problem unless you need to reserve 2 hotel rooms.
Some international hotels were stingy on giving elite tier benefits to only one room per elite member.


Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:

Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level


----------



## Troyrissa

I have read a lot from this thread but not every post. My question is what determines resort availability within Abound? Take Marriott Kauai for example. If I use my SVV to elect club points and I want to go to that resort, is it dependent on an owner at that resort also electing club points for there to be availability in Abound?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Exactly. They sold people on the premise that they own property, it’s deeded!, it can be passed down to your children, etc. I agree, vacation ownership is not like a piece of electronics.


The reality is, this is simply how timeshare sales work. It isn't unique to Marriott. They sell a product one day that is the greatest, then they roll out a new product the next day and they have to sell that instead. What you already have is junk but the new product is great and they go on and on about how good it is. This has gone on for decades and will continue to do so. They can't churn the same customer any other way.


----------



## dioxide45

Troyrissa said:


> I have read a lot from this thread but not every post. My question is what determines resort availability within Abound? Take Marriott Kauai for example. If I use my SVV to elect club points and I want to go to that resort, is it dependent on an owner at that resort also electing club points for there to be availability in Abound?


Two things. If the MVC Trust owns Marriott Kauai then the inventory availability could come from that. Also, if a Marriott Kauai owner has elected Club Points for their week, then the reservation could be available from that. The MVC Trust is pretty deep in inventory for a lot of resorts. Some more than others. The problem with Vistana availability is that, right now, it is almost 100% dependant on owners electing Club Points in order for it to be available to other ABound members for reservations.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> It’s correct that the two products - timeshares & iPhones - are different, but my comment/comparison was directed at the previous comment that a sales person saying Flex was outdated was a “scam”. Flex IS now outdated. There is something new. But Flex owners can more or less still use that product as they always have, just as I can still use my iPhone 12.
> 
> When MVC first introduced the Destination Club in 2010, traditional weeks also became outdated. There was something new. But traditional weeks still work and 40% of MVC owners still are exclusively using weeks and haven’t moved to points 12 years later. Flex and VSN will still work for a long time too. What you bought still works and will continue to work more or less as it always has. The reports of its demise appear to have been greatly exaggerated.


We fundamentally disagree because an owner that was sold last year a vacation (virtually in perpetuity)  based on a points chart only to find out that the product is 30 or 50% less valuable in a year or two is not just a minor, gradual degradation. 
Please, please, could the Marriott owners stop referencing 2010? How can they possibly not see how different the two new programs are and how significant the  differences for the Vistana owners now vs Marriott week owners at the time.


----------



## remowidget

Joshadelic said:


> Am I understanding correctly that we will have the option to just keep our VSN account as it currently is rather than have everything converted to this new Abound program?



I don't think we have the option to keep our VSN as it currently exists, but... The FAQ says, 

"Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees."

While that could apply to everyone, I suspect it applies to a group that owned at a property before it became Vistana, but I haven't seen an explanation of who can opt out.


----------



## MICROZE

teddyo333 said:


> Based off of the information given I think that the only change will be with "Example 3." These units will have automatic access to Abound as well as gain elite status. When we attended a presentation in April at WKORV we were initially informed that we would significant amount of Destination points (23,625 points) with the number of units that we owned but when we looked at the documentation closely we noticed that only 11,650 points were enrolled. This amount correlated to the points that were associated with the mandatory units. It appears as that the Marriott is using that as a guideline to determine the number of Abound points to grant an account and associate the appropriate elite level. I've included a copy of the document below. Please note that all of these units were purchased resale and/or transferred to us for free by a tugger. The "Contract Price" is what the original cost of the units were when purchased by the first/previous owner:
> View attachment 63445View attachment 63446


Hi Teddy,

Thanks for sharing.

I have a combined sheet for Marriott as well as Vistana.

*VISTANA: *We accrue 35K *[All-Enrolled]* based on our *Vistana-Contracts*.

First 3 Rows are 2BR-EOY Lagunamar PLAT+
6 Rows are 2BR-EY Kierland PLAT+
2 Contracts are Aventuras-Flex [used to retro the 6 Kierland units]
You highlighted a distinction that I had not noticed.

*VSE Enroll*: I noticed this status for me is "Y" Developer-Purchase & Resales [Mandatory-Contracts] that were retroed.
VSE Enroll *Eligible*: I noticed the status for me is "Y" for all because they have all [Developer/Mandatory] been retroed. Don't have "Voluntary" Non-Enrolled contracts to compare.





*MARRIOTT:* At the top of the sheet here is what I see for our *Marriott [All-Enrolled] Contracts*.
With Marriott we have 3 x EY Deeded-Weeks + some DCP that accrues an equivalent of 20550 every year.
Not sure what *OBL* is. Guess *"Owner Benefit Level"*.




Based on the data you provided [All-Resale with 4 x Mandatory], here is what I noticed:

The 4 x Mandatory-Contracts accrue Star-Options and show the *"*_*VSE Enroll Eligible"* _column as *"Y"*.
The *"Points to calculate OBL"* is *ZERO*.
The *"Total Non enroll pts"* is *11650* [total of 4 x Mandatory-Contracts] which matches what is eligible to enroll [possibly if retroed with a purchase]
The *"OBL"* status is BLANK

Going with the data I have, I infer [could be wrong] the following:

Developer-Purchase or Retroed-Contracts [Mandatory/Voluntary] are automatically enrolled [Accrue Star-Options] in the Abound System.
Resale Mandatory-Contracts [Accrue Star-Options] are eligible to be enrolled in the Abound System. Not sure if they need to be retroed [additional purchase].


----------



## TravelTime

dsmrp said:


> It's nice to get a Bonvoy tier upgrade, e.g
> Select & Executive gets Bonvoy Platinum, but it applies to only 1 designated member on the ownership. Previously spouses on the deeds got the same Bonvoy level. Usually not a problem unless you need to reserve 2 hotel rooms.
> Some international hotels were stingy on giving elite tier benefits to only one room per elite member.
> 
> 
> Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level



I have been Titanium Elite for awhile. I find it to be a good benefit because they always give me some kind of room upgrade.


----------



## dsmrp

Using Abound points to external trade in II is not a good value IMO, unless maybe trading to a Four Seasons resort. Abound pts may have highest trade power, but my Hyatt points are a better value and can see almost everything that is not under preference.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Two things. If the MVC Trust owns Marriott Kauai then the inventory availability could come from that. Also, if a Marriott Kauai owner has elected Club Points for their week, then the reservation could be available from that. The MVC Trust is pretty deep in inventory for a lot of resorts. Some more than others. The problem with Vistana availability is that, right now, it is almost 100% dependant on owners electing Club Points in order for it to be available to other ABound members for reservations.



I agree. The trust seems to have good availability for many locations. All the Hawaii locations (other than Maui) are easy to book through MVC (now Abound). If you are online right when Maui opens up, you can get Maui too. I have been lucky I guess since I have always been able to book what I want through MVC (Abound).


----------



## Ken555

kozykritter said:


> Yes that should be the case based upon the FAQs they've shared. The whole date thing only has to do with eligibility for using Abound. VSN usage doesn't change except for some ancillary things like banking.



This is how they fulfill their statement that nothing will change for VSN owners, if we opt to not use Abound.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> WOuld anyone be able to decipher this?
> 
> _Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. *If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.*_
> Does this mean that if you are grandfathered into a lower status than the number of Abound Club Points would otherwise dictate, you would have to buy something in order to move up to the level based on point values?


They are giving MVC status based upon VSN status. For example, 3 star will be Abound Executive. However, the Abound points they get might not be enough for them to be executive.


----------



## TravelTime

dsmrp said:


> Using Abound points to external trade in II is not a good value IMO, unless maybe trading to a Four Seasons resort. Abound pts may have highest trade power, but my Hyatt points are a better value and can see almost everything that is not under preference.



I agree using Abound points does not seem to be a good value in II. To me, this is mainly because the inventory in II for Club Points is generally not up to the quality of Marriott resorts.


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> But isn’t it the case that when any new product comes out, the old products ARE outdated? When the iPhone 13 came out, my iPhone 12 became outdated. When the 14 comes out in two weeks, my 12 will be even more outdated because the 14 will do things my 12 doesn’t. If an Apple sales associate pointed that out that doesn’t make iPhone a scam. My 12 may still work for me, as I may not need the new features, but that doesn’t mean it’s not outdated.
> 
> Similarly, Abound offers direct points access to more locations than Flex, and some other new features, so that does make Flex outdated. Saying so isn’t a scam. But just like my iPhone 12 still works for me, Flex may still work for many people, but pointing out that there is something new isn’t a scam.



At least when you buy an iPhone you know you’re getting a new product, unlike timeshares. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

timsi said:


> We fundamentally disagree because an owner that was sold last year a vacation (virtually in perpetuity)  based on a points chart only to find out that the product is 30 or 50% less valuable in a year or two is not just a minor, gradual degradation.
> Please, please, could the Marriott owners stop referencing 2010? How can they possibly not see how different the two new programs are and how significant the  differences for the Vistana owners now vs Marriott week owners at the time.




I agree. I was a Starwood/Vistana owner before I was a MVC owner. I owned both pre-2010.

In 2010 MVC introduced a new product to a base of loyal customers, and those customers were treated accordingly.

In 2022 MVC introduced a new product to a group of customers from a company they acquired. It's possible many of those customers even considered and rejected the idea of MVC ownership at some point because they liked SVN/VSN better. VSN was not Marriott's brainchild and it's likely that some of the features that VSN owners liked MVC never liked and thus never implemented in their own points program. If you don't care too much for the program and owners you acquired, you will treat them accordingly. When the owners forget, maybe they will even buy the latest thing you are selling in order to restore some of the things you took away... " Want your 2-year banking back? - Just buy 4500 points to get to Chairman, no biggie"

Some have said how great it is that mandatory weeks are allowed in for free. As an owner of mandatory weeks, that's great. But if they are doing it it's probably because of legal issues involving mandatory resorts, and not because they want to make Vistana resale owners happy. No offense to Orlando owners but why allow SVV resale enrollment and not WPORV and WSJ (phases 2 onward) resale enrollment, unless that's the only way to make it work? They would much rather peddle $30K+ retros to everyone if they could...


----------



## Ken555

cubigbird said:


> It had crossed my mind that it might not be bad to “diversify” here and consider other systems and look to buy where we want to go in their system that I can’t get in MVC.
> 
> Not to go off topic, but with the changes in Marriott Brilliant AMEX and getting Titanium anyways through 5* elite/Chairmans, I was thinking of switching that AMEX to the Hilton Aspire and getting Diamond status there and seeing what other systems are like.



Marriott lost priority for my bookings when they bought Starwood. Yet, I’m Titanium and have numerous reservations with them over the next year. I have moved almost all of my cc spend to other cards, and probably need to readjust again. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> Hi Teddy,
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I have a combined sheet for Marriott as well as Vistana.
> 
> You highlighted a distinction that I had not noticed.
> 
> *VSE Enroll*: I noticed this status for me is "Y" Developer-Purchase & Resales [Mandatory-Contracts] that were retroed.
> VSE Enroll *Eligible*: I noticed the status for me is "Y" for all because they have all [Developer/Mandatory] been retroed. Don't have "Voluntary" Non-Enrolled contracts to compare.
> 
> With Marriott we have 3 x EY Deeded-Weeks + some DCP that accrues an equivalent of 20550 every year.
> *MARRIOTT:* At the top of the sheet here is what I see for our *Marriott [All-Enrolled] Contracts*.
> Not sure what OBL is.
> 
> View attachment 63478
> 
> *VISTANA: *We also accrue 35K *[All-Enrolled]* based on our *Vistana-Contracts*.
> 
> First 3 Rows are 2BR-EOY Lagunamar PLAT+
> 6 Rows are 2BR-EY Kierland PLAT+
> 2 Contracts are Aventuras-Flex [used to retro the 6 Kierland units]
> View attachment 63483



I think Abound will end up being a really great upgrade for you given how many points you will get. If used effectively, you can travel many places in Abound for a low amount of points. If I would have been sure that mandatory resorts would be enrolled without buying more Club Points, I would have purchased another mandatory  resort. However, I have more than enough points anyway reaching Chairman’s level and I like to travel outside of the Abound world too. I also like Abound over VSN/SO because I like the low MFs for my now enrolled Vistana Week (hopefully free enrollment is true), one consolidated program, the ability to book more vacation time overall with Abound points, the upgrade to Chariman’s level, and the ability to book Vistana resorts at 12 months over 8 months using SOs. I think there is a small vocal minority on Tug who do not like the new integrated program, even though they are now getting all of these benefits over losing a year or 6 months of banking with SOs.


----------



## remowidget

CPNY said:


> Next year the flex is an outdated product and many will be lied to and coerced into buy club points. I can understand why the masses see timeshares as a scam. The “outdated” line has been used before on owners who held deeded weeks and then sold onto the flex product. It’s a wheel that the sales reps keep spinning. Heck, maybe all of those people are correct, maybe Marriott is a scam.


Why is Flex an outdated product? Flex owners will still have pretty much everything available they had before.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I think Abound will end up being a really great upgrade for you given how many points you will get. If used effectively, you can travel many places in Abound for a low amount of points. If I would have been sure that mandatory resorts would be enrolled without buying more Club Points, I would have purchased another mandatory  resort. However, I have more than enough points anyway reaching Chairman’s level and I like to travel outside of the Abound world too.



It's really not about the points you get in abound, but the alternate usage options you have for a week you don't use (if you use it then Abound is irrelevant).

Those without access to Abound already who now have enrollable weeks also will get the ability to rent out points and rent points from others. This to me is the most valuable addition for those owning weeks with high rental values. Rent out your week and rent points from others - in many cases you come out way ahead.

If you could rent a WKV Plat 2BR week for $4500-$5000 (and use that cash to rent 6400-7000 Abound points), why would you ever elect 4050 Abound points?

And if you had 8 WKV weeks (not me...) which allow you to elect 32K Abound points you wouldn't do it just because 32K Abound points is a lot of points. You'd still rent the 8 weeks for cash...

I probably wouldn't feel any worse off if my Vistana weeks were not allowed to enroll because (i) I have enough MVC weeks I would use to elect points before I touch WKV, (ii) I'd rent WKV before I elect points for it, and (iii) I don't feel like Chairman vs. Presidential in Abound matters that much.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> It's really not about the points you get in abound, but the alternate usage options you have for a week you don't use (if you use it then Abound is irrelevant).
> 
> Those without access to Abound already who now have enrollable weeks also will get the ability to rent out points and rent points from others. This to me is the most valuable addition for those owning weeks with high rental values. Rent out your week and rent points from others - in many cases you come out way ahead.
> 
> If you could rent a WKV Plat 2BR week for $4500-$5000 (and use that cash to rent 6400-7000 Abound points), why would you ever elect 4050 Abound points?
> 
> And if you had 8 WKV weeks (not me...) which allow you to elect 32K Abound points you wouldn't do it just because 32K Abound points is a lot of points. You'd still rent the 8 weeks for cash...
> 
> I probably wouldn't feel any worse off if my Vistana weeks were not allowed to enroll because (i) I have enough MVC weeks I would use to elect points before I touch WKV, (ii) I'd rent WKV before I elect points for it, and (iii) I don't feel like Chairman vs. Presidential in Abound matters that much.



I see your point about the rental value. The only flaw in your thinking is many (if not most Abound members not on Tug) do not rent out their week and it might not be preferable to rent out their week due to the convenience of using Abound. I certainly do not prefer to rent out my week. I rent it out for such a low amount (relatively speaking) that I can take 2-3 vacations using Abound. I also hate dealing with renters. For one of my weeks, they complained that they could not get a refund, then I gave in and provided a refund of 50% but it was too late to rent to anyone else. Maybe it is better for WKV to rent but Maui does not rent out for much more, if anything at all, than WKV. Last year I rented out my Maui weeks for less than you are quoting for WKV. But with 8300+ points in Abound, I can stay in at least 2 locations with Abound points in 2BRs with great views.


----------



## MICROZE

dsmrp said:


> It's nice to get a Bonvoy tier upgrade, e.g
> Select & Executive gets Bonvoy Platinum, but it applies to only 1 designated member on the ownership. Previously spouses on the deeds got the same Bonvoy level. Usually not a problem unless you need to reserve 2 hotel rooms.
> Some international hotels were stingy on giving elite tier benefits to only one room per elite member.
> 
> 
> Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level


We have owned for 15+ years with both Vistana as well as Marriott.

Vistana [even when affiliated to SPG] only granted the Primary-Owner in the deed with SPG-Elite status.
Marriott has also always only designated the Primary-Owner for Bonvoy-Elite-Status.

Since I received "Titanium" via our Marriott-Ownership, it was not beneficial to be Primary on Vistana.
Vistana offered to designate my wife as Primary-Owner [1-Time change ONLY] so that she could get "Platinum" via Vistana.

Not sure how it will work if Marriott created a combined status [Vistana + Marriott].
Will my wife lose her status? 
Will we have 2 Elite-Status's?

Marriott-Abound: With me as Primary [Titanium]
Vistana-Abound: With wife as Primary [Titanium]


----------



## byeloe

TravelTime said:


> I see your point about the rental value. The only flaw in your thinking is many (if not most Abound members not on Tug) do not rent out their week and it might not be preferable to rent out their week due to the convenience of using Abound. I certainly do not prefer to rent out my week. I rent it out for such a low amount (relatively speaking) that I can take 2-3 vacations using Abound. I also hate dealing with renters. For one of my weeks, they complained that they could not get a refund, then I gave in and provided a refund of 50% but it was too late to rent to anyone else. Maybe it is better for WKV to rent but Maui does not rent out for much more, if anything at all, than WKV. Last year I rented out my Maui weeks for less than you are quoting for WKV. But with 8300+ points in Abound, I can stay in at least 2 locations with Abound points in 2BRs with great views.


owning Maui is the special case for converting to Abound because of the large amount of points.  Most of the other VSN resorts will benefit more from the use of staroptions


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> This is how they fulfill their statement that nothing will change for VSN owners, if we opt to not use Abound.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I feel bad for all of those unsuspecting owners with only one ownership. They will have their fees increase from 150 to 230 automatically. They are putting it on the owner to opt out…. They should be putting it on the owner to opt in!


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> We fundamentally disagree because an owner that was sold last year a vacation (virtually in perpetuity)  based on a points chart only to find out that the product is 30 or 50% less valuable in a year or two is not just a minor, gradual degradation.
> Please, please, could the Marriott owners stop referencing 2010? How can they possibly not see how different the two new programs are and how significant the  differences for the Vistana owners now vs Marriott week owners at the time.



I think the reason we keep referencing 2010 is because we see parallels. Many MVC owners had the same angst in 2010 that I hear VSN owners expressing today, and most of that angst proved unnecessary. I think we're trying to do our best to help VSN owners learn from our experiences.

I can see that the legacy VSN program in 2022 is very different from the legacy MVC program that existed in 2010. What I don't understand is how it's so different for VSN owners today. Just like MVC weeks owners could ignore the Destination Club in 2010 and just keep using their week/II, you can ignore Abound and keep using VSN today. You don't have to play in the Abound sandbox. That's how I see it. Can you help me understand better where your angst is coming from? I understand there are some VSN changes around the margin - like banking periods - but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Do a lot of VSN owners frequently bank for two years? I have 18 months as Presidential in MVC and can't imagine regularly banking even 18 months, let alone 24.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I see your point about the rental value. The only flaw in your thinking is many (if not most Abound members not on Tug) do not rent out points and it might not be convenient to rent out points due to the convenience of using Abound. I certainly do not prefer to rent out my week. I rent it out for such a low amount (relatively speaking) that I can take 2-3 vacations using Abound. I also hate dealing with renters. For one of my weeks, they complained that they could not get a refund, then I gave in and provided a refund but it was too late to rent to anyone else. Maybe it is better for WKV to rent but Maui does not rent out for much more, if anything at all, than WKV. Last year I rented out my Maui weeks for less than you are quoting for WKV. But with 8300+ points in Abound, I can stay in at least 2 locations with Abound points in 2BRs with great views.



Those numbers for WKV were pretty realistic for 2022, with post pandemic travel and no travel restrictions. But $4000-$4200 was pretty "normal" even before then for a platinum week. Even at those lower rates, 4050 Abound points is way too low for me to consider. Like you, I own other Marriott weeks and would much rather elect 5300 points for my NCV week 26 that I can otherwise also rent for around $4K. 

As a rule, I compare (week rental value / point) vs. the cost of renting points from someone (about $0.7). If they are within 10%-15%, or if the former is lower, then I would consider electing Abound points for that week. Otherwise, I feel like I'm leaving too much money on the table for the convenience of Abound election.

I understand the issues you cite with renting weeks. But renting points is a lot easier - just transfer points and you are done... there is really no other commitment. There is some chance of fraud if you rent points from someone else, because you are asked to pay first. So, I might pay a bit more just to deal with a seller I know I can trust. If people outside of TUG don't do it, I suspect it's because many are not even aware that's it's a possibility. 

I think your post also illustrates well why WKV owners are unhappy with the 4050 Abound points election number.
WKV Plat=WKORV/N with 148,100 Staroptions
WKV Plat=WKORV/N with rental value (give or take)
Yet one is 4050 points, and one is 6200 points...


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I think the reason we keep referencing 2010 is because we see parallels. Many MVC owners had the same angst in 2010 that I hear VSN owners expressing today, and most of that angst proved unnecessary. I think we're trying to do our best to help VSN owners learn from our experiences.
> 
> I can see that the legacy VSN program in 2022 is very different from the legacy MVC program that existed in 2010. What I don't understand is how it's so different for VSN owners today. Just like MVC weeks owners could ignore the Destination Club in 2010 and just keep using their week/II, you can ignore Abound and keep using VSN today. You don't have to play in the Abound sandbox. That's how I see it. Can you help me understand better where your angst is coming from? I understand there are some VSN changes around the margin - like banking periods - but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Do a lot of VSN owners frequently bank for two years? I have 18 months as Presidential in MVC and can't imagine regularly banking even 18 months, let alone 24.


I have my issues with the two year banking period and the 8/8 cutoff date. I am getting screwed by 10 days with my latest resale but that’s life I guess. It would have been nice to see the cut off date for resale inclusion to have been the date they released the FAQ’s.

Ignoring the abound program still increases every VSN owners yearly fees by at least 80 dollars.


----------



## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> I feel bad for all of those unsuspecting owners with only one ownership. They will have their fees increase from 150 to 230 automatically. They are putting it on the owner to opt out…. They should be putting it on the owner to opt in!



I’d be happy to opt out of the VSN fee (and not use VSN) - especially how it has increased year after year w/o control or transparency. What’s to stop them from making it $500+ ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wjarcher

CPNY said:


> I have my issues with the two year banking period and the 8/8 cutoff date. I am getting screwed by 10 days with my latest resale but that’s life I guess. It would have been nice to see the cut off date for resale inclusion to have been the date they released the FAQ’s.
> 
> Ignoring the abound program still increases every VSN owners yearly fees by at least 80 dollars.



You might be able to call and ask for exception for the cutoff date once the program rolls out (e.g., to show that your purchase contract was made prior to the cutoff.  Given the increased transfer delay known to Vistana/Marriott, I hope they can make exception to owners who reach out).


----------



## dsmrp

MICROZE said:


> We have owned for 15+ years with both Vistana as well as Marriott.
> 
> Vistana [even when affiliated to SPG] only granted the Primary-Owner in the deed with SPG-Elite status.
> Marriott has also always only designated the Primary-Owner for Bonvoy-Elite-Status.
> 
> Since I received "Titanium" via our Marriott-Ownership, it was not beneficial to be Primary on Vistana.
> Vistana offered to designate my wife as Primary-Owner [1-Time change ONLY] so that she could get "Platinum" via Vistana.
> 
> Not sure how it will work if Marriott created a combined status [Vistana + Marriott].
> Will my wife lose her status?
> Will we have 2 Elite-Status's?
> 
> Marriott-Abound: With me as Primary [Titanium]
> Vistana-Abound: With wife as Primary [Titanium]


When we bought in 2011 it was still Starwood. My husband was given SPG status. I later found out being on the deed, I could apply and get same status, which I did.

Yes benefits have diminished with these now 2 management company sales. Starwood to Vistana to Marriott


----------



## wjarcher

CPNY said:


> I feel bad for all of those unsuspecting owners with only one ownership. They will have their fees increase from 150 to 230 automatically. They are putting it on the owner to opt out…. They should be putting it on the owner to opt in!



You also save the banking fee, guest fee for VSN reservations, cancellation fee within 60 days.  There are a lot savings in the new program that you can take advantage of.


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## CPNY

wjarcher said:


> You also save the banking fee, guest fee for VSN reservations, cancellation fee within 60 days.  There are a lot savings in the new program that you can take advantage of.


True, but for those who use what they own year after year, those fees don’t matter. All I’m saying is, it should be an opt in not an opt out. I’m ok with the increased club dues (as long as I’m not paying for two) those ancillary fees being removed will benefit me. I think of my mother who owns one unit and uses it at her home resort year after year as well as my elderly aunt who uses it year after year and her home resort, the increased in Club dues isn’t much of a benefit for those types of owners. There are plenty of owners out there who won’t even know abound exists yet will be paying for access


----------



## kozykritter

remowidget said:


> Why is Flex an outdated product? Flex owners will still have pretty much everything available they had before.


I believe the OP was saying what the new sales pitch will be going forward, not disrespecting the current Flex product


----------



## CPNY

wjarcher said:


> You might be able to call and ask for exception for the cutoff date once the program rolls out (e.g., to show that your purchase contract was made prior to the cutoff.  Given the increased transfer delay known to Vistana/Marriott, I hope they can make exception to owners who reach out).


I think they are pretty clear on the rules. My deed was signed on 8/9 but recorded and sent to vistana on 8/19 so I’m sure I have no leg to stand on


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> I believe the OP was saying what the new sales pitch will be going forward, not disrespecting the current Flex product


Correct


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

DanCali said:


> I think your post also illustrates well why WKV owners are unhappy with the 4050 Abound points election number.
> WKV Plat=WKORV/N with 148,100 Staroptions
> WKV Plat=WKORV/N with rental value (give or take)
> Yet one is 4050 points, and one is 6200 points...



What was the developer (or even resale) purchase price on WKV v WKORV/N? I know we paid around $45K (developer) for WKORV/N IV. 

Maybe WKV are unhappy because they have had it so good in the past but maybe not so in the future? However, as you say, there will still be ways to get more than the 'paid for' value out of WKV.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> We fundamentally disagree because an owner that was sold last year a vacation (virtually in perpetuity)  based on a points chart only to find out that the product is 30 or 50% less valuable in a year or two is not just a minor, gradual degradation.
> Please, please, could the Marriott owners stop referencing 2010? How can they possibly not see how different the two new programs are and how significant the  differences for the Vistana owners now vs Marriott week owners at the time.


But this is just factually incorrect.

1) The VSN points chart isn't going away;

2) The "HomeOption" points chart isn't going away and those owners will continue to have first crack at all the same inventory in each trust (Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex and Aventuras) as Abound users will;

3) You're whole premise is that MVC will shift all the "good weeks" from SVN to Abound, which didn't happen when they launched the DP program and is why people keep referencing what happened in 2010 - it didn't happen then, it's doubtful it will happen now, MVC has their exchange allocation approach audited by an independent auditor each year and no matter what at the end of the day they can't take any more or better weeks from VSN than VSN owners elect in to Abound;

4) If you bought from the developer on the basis of the points charts mentioned above (that aren't changing and aren't going away) you already lost WAY more than 30-50% of the value of what you bought retail.



JIMinNC said:


> I think the reason we keep referencing 2010 is because we see parallels. Many MVC owners had the same angst in 2010 that I hear VSN owners expressing today, and most of that angst proved unnecessary. I think we're trying to do our best to help VSN owners learn from our experiences.
> 
> I can see that the legacy VSN program in 2022 is very different from the legacy MVC program that existed in 2010. What I don't understand is how it's so different for VSN owners today. Just like MVC weeks owners could ignore the Destination Club in 2010 and just keep using their week/II, you can ignore Abound and keep using VSN today. You don't have to play in the Abound sandbox. That's how I see it. Can you help me understand better where your angst is coming from? I understand there are some VSN changes around the margin - like banking periods - but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Do a lot of VSN owners frequently bank for two years? I have 18 months as Presidential in MVC and can't imagine regularly banking even 18 months, let alone 24.


Agreed.  I'm not saying it's all roses, but the doom and gloom is a bit much.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I have my issues with the two year banking period and the 8/8 cutoff date. I am getting screwed by 10 days with my latest resale but that’s life I guess. It would have been nice to see the cut off date for resale inclusion to have been the date they released the FAQ’s.
> 
> Ignoring the abound program still increases every VSN owners yearly fees by at least 80 dollars.



The impact of your timing on the purchase does suck for you. I'm sure similar situations occurred in 2010. That will always happen when there is a hard cut off. Some other MVC owners might have experience as to whether they may have been a little flexible back then on purchases that were executed but not finalized by the cutoff. The difference in 2010 was the cutoff was the go live/announcement date, whereas this time the cutoff is a couple weeks earlier than the announcement. I think that does give you a little more ammunition to use to argue your point, but it still may not make a difference. We missed one of their post-2010 resale enrollment amnesty promotions by a few days or weeks (can't recall exactly, but it was pretty close) back in 2019 when we bought our EOY Waiohai, so we had to wait until they offered the promo in late 2020 to get it and our EOY Maui Ocean Club enrolled.

On the fee increase, elimination of the a la carte fees will likely reduce that $80 differential for some/many VSN owners, wouldn't you think? And for anyone that doesn't see the value in Abound, it sounds like they can opt out, right?


----------



## DanCali

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> What was the developer (or even resale) purchase price on WKV v WKORV/N? I know we paid around $45K (developer) for WKORV/N IV.
> 
> Maybe WKV are unhappy because they have had it so good in the past but maybe not so in the future? However, as you say, there will still be ways to get more than the 'paid for' value out of WKV.




Both resale (~$15K) and developer ($42K-$48K) prices are similar.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> The impact of your timing on the purchase does suck for you. I'm sure similar situations occurred in 2010. That will always happen when there is a hard cut off. Some other MVC owners might have experience as to whether they may have been a little flexible back then on purchases that were executed but not finalized by the cutoff. The difference in 2010 was the cutoff was the go live/announcement date, whereas this time the cutoff is a couple weeks earlier than the announcement. I think that does give you a little more ammunition to use to argue your point, but it still may not make a difference. We missed one of their post-2010 resale enrollment amnesty promotions by a few days or weeks (can't recall exactly, but it was pretty close) back in 2019 when we bought our EOY Waiohai, so we had to wait until they offered the promo in late 2020 to get it and our EOY Maui Ocean Club enrolled.
> 
> On the fee increase, elimination of the a la carte fees will likely reduce that $80 differential for some/many VSN owners, wouldn't you think? And for anyone that doesn't see the value in Abound, it sounds like they can opt out, right?


Yeah it does suck, however, it make not incur any additional club dues if I’m reading the FAQ correctly. I can always use that in the VSN as intended and exchange in interval! If they try and charge me a separate VSN fee for that ownership, I will then fight to have it included.

as far as the fees, it will benefit me to have one club dues considering everything that’s included. However, there are many not so savvy owners who will end up paying 80 dollars more without ever using abound.


----------



## MBJC

dioxide45 said:


> *I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation.
> 
> • I moved all of the posts from 8/24/22 to this thread, starting with the Docs posted on Vistana.
> 
> • Please avoid off topic chitchat posts - let's keep this thread informational.
> 
> DeniseM*
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> *ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS*
> *Can I use my StarOptions to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> No. Club Points is the currency that may be used to confirm vacations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties in Abound. In order to reserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property through Abound, you must first elect your eligible VOI(s) to receive Club Points.
> *Does Abound by Marriott Vacations™ replace the Vistana Signature Network (VSN)?*
> 
> No. If you choose to vacation at your Home Resort(s) or stay within the Vistana resort collection, you can use your VOI(s) as you have done in the past. Access to Abound — by electing to receive Club Points — is another use option that will be available to you but is not mandatory. Each Use Year, you choose, depending on where and how you want to vacation that year.
> Electing to receive Club Points for eligible VOI(s) is an option that enables you to reserve vacations across the expanded network of brands.
> *How is resort inventory made available for Club Points redemption?*
> 
> When enrolled and affiliated Owners across all brands in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) comparable inventory based on the Owner’s VOI is made available for exchange through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *How will the affiliation impact how I use my ownership?*
> 
> Since the affiliation between VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ does not affect what you currently own, you may use your ownership as you have in the past:
> Reserve a vacation at your Home Resort(s).
> Reserve an in-network vacation through VSN.
> Bank your StarOptions®.
> Use StarOptions for other vacations like hotel stays and cruises through VSN Select.
> Convert your VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy® points.
> Exchange your VOI(s) through Interval International®.
> 
> Beginning with your 2023 Use Year, you will be able to enjoy a new use option and elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs to use in Abound.
> *If I wish to reserve a vacation in the Vistana Signature Network, can I continue to use my VOI(s) to do so?*
> 
> Yes. You do not need to elect to receive Club Points to use your StarOptions to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resort or reserve some other usage option in the VSN. In fact, if you intend to use your VOI(s) to reserve your Home Resort or another Vistana resort, we recommend that you understand the number of Club Points that would be required for your desired vacation prior to making the decision of whether to elect. The Club Points and StarOptions currencies are different, and the number of StarOptions required may differ from the number of Club Points required. _Points charts coming soon._
> Club Points may be used to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, Westin Vacation Club resorts, and other vacation experiences. However, you may find it more advantageous to continue using your StarOptions for stays at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts.
> 
> Currency to UseWhen I Want to:Home Options or Weeks-Based VOI(s)Reserve a vacation at my Home Resort(s)StarOptionsReserve a vacation within the Vistana Signature Network of resorts or through VSN SelectClub PointsReserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or another vacation experience through Abound. You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but the number of Club Points required will vary from the number of StarOptions required. We recommend you look at the Points Charts prior to making the decision to elect to receive Club Points.
> 
> *What are "eligible VOIs”?*
> 
> Eligible VOIs:
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
> VOIs enrolled in VSN at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and Westin Riverfront resort will not be able to elect to receive Club Points at the time Abound transactions go live and these VOIs will not count toward the Owners benefit level. We anticipate that these VOIs will be eligible to elect to receive Club Points and count toward the Owner’s benefit level in the future. Additionally, Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound until Owners at these properties are able to elect to receive Club Points.
> Restricted, First Day Benefit and Bonus StarOptions are not eligible for election.
> Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.
> 
> *What is Abound by Marriott Vacations?*
> 
> Vistana Signature Network™ (VSN) has been affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, the internal exchange program previously available only to Marriott Vacation Club Owners.
> The affiliation will enable VSN members to elect their eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) to receive Club Points. Club Points may be used in Abound to confirm vacations throughout an expanded network of brands including Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club villa resorts, as well as Vistana Beach Club.
> Through Abound, VSN Members can also use Club Points for cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, car rental, airline miles, golf, travel protection, and more.
> _Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._
> Why is the VSN™ being affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?
> 
> When Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquired ILG in 2018, we announced that we intended to look for ways to expand vacation opportunities for Owners across the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands. Since that announcement, we have been working behind the scenes to set up the guidelines, systems, and technology to enable expanded offerings and fulfill this promise. The affiliation with Abound is the result of the effort to offer Owners more choice and more destinations in a way that is simple to navigate and understand.
> *Will I need to take any action to become part of Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> If you are currently a member of VSN with eligible VOIs all you will need to do in order to receive Club Points to use for vacations at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or one of the thousands of vacation experience options available through Abound, is elect to receive Club Points by the associated deadline each year. Electing to receive Club Points does not happen automatically and is optional.
> *Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ affect my maintenance fees?*
> 
> The affiliation will not impact your maintenance fees to the extent that maintenance fees are comprised only of your Home Resort(s) property’s operating costs and reserve fees. If you own a product where the maintenance fees also include fees associated with a membership in VSN, then they may be impacted to the extent VSN membership fees are adjusted.
> The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network).
> Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
> *Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ change my deeded ownership?*
> 
> No. The affiliation between these two programs enhances your usage options but does not change your deed in any way. Your Vacation Ownership Interest(s) are the same.
> *BENEFIT LEVELS*
> *Are there any benefits from my VSN Elite level that will no longer be available?*
> 
> Early check-in, late check-out, and concierge service that may have been previously available, based on demand, will no longer be available. Additionally, VSN Members at the higher Owner benefit levels will no longer receive discounted fees since they are replaced by Club Dues.
> *As a 5-Star Elite level Member of VSN, I receive a 10% Marriott Bonvoy bonus. Will I still receive this bonus with my new Owner benefit level?*
> 
> The 10% bonus remains in place for VSN VOIs that have a Presidential or Chairman’s Club Owner benefit level (formerly 4- or 5-Star Elite Owners) when you convert your VSN VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> *Individual Owner benefit level: Once elected, the use of Club Points follow the rules for each individual’s Owner benefit level when transacting in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange system. What else do I need to know about an individual Owner benefit level?*
> 
> An individual Owner benefit level is calculated based on the contract(s) an individual is named on.
> When a VSN Member elects to receive and then uses Club Points, the individual Owner benefit level will determine the parameters of the rules. This includes the following transactions:
> Deadline for banking and the usage window for banked Club Points
> Reservation timeframes and cancellation timeframes
> Last-minute Points reservation discounts
> Vacation experience credit benefits and expanded offers such as private vacation homes
> 
> *I am a biennial Owner. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*
> 
> Club Points values will be calculated at 50% annually toward your Owner benefit level since your ownership is only allocated every-other-year. For example, if your biennial ownership is valued at 4,000 Club Points every-other-year, it will be calculated at 2,000 Club Points annually toward your Owner benefit level.
> *I own VOIs in both a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club (or affiliated) ownership resort and Marriott Vacation Club. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*
> 
> When VSN is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations, the Club Points for all of an Owner’s contracts will be combined between the expanded brands. Many VSN Members will enjoy savings from paying one annual Club Dues fee (based on their new Owner benefit level) rather than paying both Club Dues with Marriott Vacation Club and a VSN fee.
> If you are named on a contract, the total number of Club Points at which your VOI(s) are valued will be added together to determine your individual Owner benefit level.
> *I was awarded Elite Level Qualification Credits (ELQC) when I purchased my ownership through Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club. What will happen with the ELQC program? *
> 
> The ELQC program has been discontinued. However, ELQCs previously given to Owners have been included in the calculation of VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels used to determine new Owner benefit levels to the extent applicable.
> *In the case where an Owner’s benefit level is different from other Owners on the contract, which level governs their transactions?*
> 
> When transacting in VSN, all Owners named on the membership will follow the rules of the primary Owner’s benefit level.
> It is not common but possible that the primary Owner may have a lower Owner benefit level than others on the membership.
> 
> Once an Owner elects to receive Club Points, their individual Owner benefit level will govern the transactions when using Club Points.
> *What are Owner Benefit Levels?*
> 
> VOIs enrolled in VSN have benefits and discounts based on Owner benefit levels, along with additional usage flexibility around timeframes and deadlines within Abound by Marriott Vacations.
> As part of the affiliation, the VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels will be transitioning to align with the Abound Owner benefit level structure (Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman’s Club).
> Owner benefit levels in Abound are based on the total Club Points election value of your eligible VOIs, in addition to any Marriott Vacation Club inventory (such as Club Points) you may own. When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
> *What benefits will come with my new Owner benefit level?*
> 
> Marriott Bonvoy Elite level upgrades:
> *Owner* benefit level Members will continue to receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Gold Elite level, as VSN Members do now.
> *Select* and *Executive* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Platinum Elite level.
> *Presidential* and *Chairman’s Club* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite level.
> Owner benefit levels are reviewed annually and the corresponding Elite level upgrade will be renewed. VSN Members  will have the opportunity to designate one Owner from the account who will receive the Elite level upgrade at the time of such renewal.
> 
> Last-minute Points reservation discounts:
> When a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points, Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of required Club Points when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 30 days of arrival.
> Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club Owner benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 60 days of arrival.
> 
> Owner rental discounts:
> If you are at the Owner or Select benefit level, you can receive a 25% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> If you are at the Executive benefit level, you can receive a 30% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> If you are at the Presidential or Chairman’s Club benefit level, you can receive a 35% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> The Owner rental discount codes will be the same as at all participating resorts and properties in the network and depends on availability and an Owner’s benefit level as noted above. Owners may reserve the discount rate on their Owner website, or on Marriott.com using the following codes:
> 7VC – 25% off – All Owners
> 6VC – 30% off – Executive Level or Higher
> 2VC – 35% off – Presidential Level or Higher
> 
> 
> More flexible timeframes:
> VSN Members at higher Owner benefit levels enjoy more flexible timeframes for confirming reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, as well as extended deadlines for transactions like electing to receive Club Points, and banking Club Points.  VSN Members also receive more flexible deadlines for converting VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> 
> More vacation experiences to explore:
> When using Club Points, VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and higher enjoy additional vacation experience options, including the ability to reserve private vacation homes through Villas of Distinction and premier sporting and entertainment events.
> 
> Discounts and Destination Dollars:
> VSN Members enjoy discounts for options like car rental and may receive Destination Dollars when reserving guided tours, vacation homes, cruises, and other options. Benefits/credits will vary based on the Owner benefit level.
> 
> *What is a Primary Owner on a Membership?*
> 
> The Owner with the highest “Individual Owner benefit level” among any of the Primary Owners of the VOI contracts in the VSN membership will be designated as the “Membership Owner Benefit Level” and the Primary Owner of the membership. If a tiebreaker is required among the Primary Owners on a membership, the Primary listed on the oldest active and solid (closed) contract based on purchase date will break the tie.
> *What will happen to my VSN Elite level and/or the benefits associated with my VSN membership after the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> VSN Elite levels are transitioning to Abound Owner benefit levels which are the following election values:
> Owner: Up to 3,999 Club Points
> Select: 4,000 to 6,999 Club Points
> Executive: 7,000 to 9,999 Club Points
> Presidential: 10,000 to 14,999 Club Points
> Chairman’s Club: 15,000+ Club Points
> 
> VSN Members will be grandfathered to Abound Owner benefit levels as follows:
> 
> Election Value and/or VSN Elite LevelThis will be your Owner benefit level in Abound3-Star EliteExecutive - or higher4-Star ElitePresidential - or higher5-Star EliteChairman’s Club
> 
> *Why is my Owner benefit level higher in VSN than when I use Club Points in Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> Each owner has an Owner benefit level that is calculated based on the eligible VOIs in which they are named on a deed, however when transacting within VSN, all rules (such as deadlines and the percent of Marriott Bonvoy points which VOIs may be converted) are based on the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner.
> After electing to receive Club Points and when using them within Abound, each VSN Member’s individual Owner benefit level dictates the rules for the applicable transactions (such as the timeframes for making reservations and waitlist requests). When the VSN Member with the highest Owner benefit level uses the Club Points, all other VSN Members on the contract will enjoy the extended deadlines, timeframes, and other benefits associated with that individual’s benefit level.
> *Will my new Owner benefit level change based on the years when I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> Your Owner benefit level is not dependent on how you use your VOI(s) each year.
> When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
> All Owners on a deed enjoy the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner when transacting within VSN. An individual’s Owner benefit level governs the rules for using Club Points in Abound.
> An Owner’s benefit level could go up if an Owner purchases or enrolls more Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests, or go down if an Owner sells or unenrolls Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests.
> Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.
> A VSN Member may be subject to cancellation for non-payment of Club Dues which could result in a decreased Owner benefit level.
> *VSN BENEFITS*
> *Are there any changes to the cancellation policy for reservations I make at my Home Resort(s) or within VSN?*
> 
> Yes, unless you can and do opt-out, there are no longer cancellation fees for reservations canceled within 60 days of arrival beginning in 2023.
> *Are there any changes to VSN banking guidelines?*
> 
> Yes:
> Beginning in 2023, unless you can and do opt-out, no additional fee will be assessed for banking.
> The deadlines and timeframes for using banked StarOptions will change as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelCurrent StarOptions Banking Deadlines2023 Banking StarOptions Deadlines*Current Timeframe to Use Banked StarOptions*Beginning in 2025 timelines for using banked StarOptionsOwner or SelectJuly 1st of current Use YearJune 30 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearExecutiveOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearPresidentialOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 1.5 Calendar YearsChairman’s ClubDecember 31st of current Use YearOctober 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 2 Calendar Years
> Currently, all VSN members are given 2 calendar years to use banked StarOptions. This policy and timeframe will continue for 2 calendar years (for 2023 and 2024 use) and then align with the above new use periods (which depend on an Owner’s benefit level) starting for StarOptions banked in 2025.
> Tip: there is an advantage for VSN Owners with when they can use their banked Club Points (vs when they can use their banked StarOptions which is not until 8 months prior to their check-in date)
> Are there changes to the timeframes that apply to reserving my VOI(s) or StarOptions for use in the VSN network?
> 
> No.
> *Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for a VSN Select Cruise?*
> 
> Yes. You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for hundreds more different cruise itineraries through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for stays at 20+ hotels through VSN Select?*
> 
> Yes, but unless you can and do opt-out, you will no longer be required to pay an additional fee to take advantage of this benefit beginning in 2023.
> You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for a larger selection of hotels.
> *ELECTING & MANAGING CLUB POINTS*
> Am I able to bank, borrow and transfer Club Points?
> 
> Once you elect to receive Club Points, you can bank them into the subsequent use year, borrow them into the immediately preceding year, or transfer their usage to another Owner affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *Are there fees to bank, borrow, or transfer my Club Points?*
> 
> No.
> *Can I elect my 2022 usage to receive Club Points?*
> 
> No. Enjoy your 2022 usage as you had planned to prior to this announcement.
> _Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._
> 
> *Can I rent my Club Points to another VSN Member?*
> 
> No, you may not rent your Club Points to another VSN Member.
> *Can the number of Club Points required for stays at a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort increase or decrease?*
> 
> Yes. When a popular date such as a holiday like New Year’s Day falls mid-week on a certain year, the number of Club Points required for that holiday may increase, and the surrounding nights decrease. Therefore, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday may not change, but the individual nightly amounts within the week may be adjusted to account for the higher demand of the holiday. If the number of Club Points for the surrounding nights do not change, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday will increase.
> The amount of Club Points required to reserve a particular night of occupancy at a particular property can be increased or decreased from year-to-year to reflect the demand of that night relative to other nights of inventory in the network.
> *Can the value of my VOI increase or decrease?*
> 
> The value of your VOI is generally based on the relative demand in the system for the inventory you own. Factors include, but may not be limited to, the specific resort, season, and size of accommodation owned.
> There is a possibility that the Club Points attributable to your VOI could increase or decrease.
> *How can I receive the best value using Club Points?*
> 
> There are several ways to receive the best value when using Club Points.
> Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require significantly fewer Club Points than weekend stays.
> If you are able to travel in a shoulder season, fewer Club Points are generally required. For example, plan a trip to Newport Coast, California, in September after school resumes, rather than in July, the most popular time of year for that destination. Look at the Points Charts. You may be surprised to learn how many nights you can reserve in the off-season by electing to receive Club Points with your peak-season VOI(s).
> When you are not traveling with a large party, consider reserving a smaller villa, such as a 1-bedroom villa or suite, or even a guest room, if it will accommodate your travel party.
> Keep an eye on Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes — these are discounted 3-, 4-, and 7-night stays booked within 60 days of arrival at select resorts.
> Take advantage of Owner benefit level discounts for spontaneous travel. VSN Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 30 days of arrival. VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 60 days of arrival.
> 
> *How do I bank Club Points?*
> 
> You may bank some or all of your Club Points into a subsequent Use Year if you do so by the applicable deadline within the current Use Year.
> Your banking timeframes are based on your Owner benefit level, as follows. Once banked, Club Points may not be banked again, borrowed back, or transferred to another Owner.
> 
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelBanking DeadlineUse Banked PointsOwner and Select6 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearExecutive4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearPresidential4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 1.5 Use YearsChairman’s Club2 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 2 Use Years
> 
> *How do I borrow Club Points?*
> 
> You may borrow Club Points into the immediately preceding year when they are needed to confirm a vacation.
> There is no deadline for borrowing. You can borrow whenever you need additional Club Points to confirm a vacation.
> If you later cancel the vacation for which you borrowed Club Points, they will expire on their original expiration date.
> *How do I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> It’s easy, soon you will be able to elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs from your Owner website, vistana.com.
> Weeks Owners must elect their entire VOI to receive Club Points. You may not elect to receive Club Points for a locked-off portion of your villa.
> Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
> *How does transferring Club Points work?*
> 
> VSN Members can transfer some or all of their Club Points for usage by another Owner who is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, but Club Points that were previously banked, or transferred may not be transferred again (e.g., if usage of 2023 Club Points is transferred to another Owner, usage of those 2023 Club Points cannot be transferred again).
> Transferred Club Points retain the Use Year of the Owner who transferred them. For example, if an Owner transferred Club Points to you with a Use Year of January 1 through December 31, 2023, then those transferred Club Points must be used for vacations that take place from January 1 through December 31, 2023.
> Transferred Club Points may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred again.
> *How many Club Points will I receive if I elect to receive them for my eligible VOI(s)?*
> 
> For Weeks VOIs, the number of Club Points you will receive may depend on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and season you own. Peak season weeks generally exchange for more Club Points than shoulder season weeks, for example.
> For Points (Home Options) VOIs, such as Westin Flex, the number of Club Points you will receive will be based upon the exchange average of inventory that makes up each Trust.
> Weeks VOIs may be elected in their entirety.
> Points VOIs may be elected in their entirety, or in increments of 20,000 Home Options, except for Points VOIs at Westin Coral Vista, Westin Sunset Bay, and Westin Nanea, for which the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
> *How many Club Points will I receive when I elect?*
> 
> Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.
> *I am a biennial Owner who would like to elect to receive Club Points. When can I elect?*
> 
> You will be able to elect to receive Club Points for the Use Years owned and you may do so as early as 25 months prior to the beginning of that Use Year.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, am I giving up my VOI(s) permanently?*
> 
> No. To access the expanded brands and options available in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, VSN Members need to elect to receive Club Points each year for their eligible VOI(s). However, if you would like to reserve a VSN reservation using StarOptions, there is no need to elect to receive Club Points.
> Elect to receive Club Points when you would like to reserve a vacation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property, or when you would like to confirm a tour, cruise, hotel stay, safari, or another experience through Abound.
> You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but we recommend you look at the value of using Club Points versus StarOptions for these stays. Also, we anticipate there may be limited availability at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts since inventory is made available when Owners at particular resorts elect to receive Club Points.
> When you elect to receive Club Points, the transaction cannot be reversed for that VOI(s) that year.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, where can I use them to vacation?*
> 
> Club Points may be used to reserve vacations at available resorts and properties in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, including resorts in the expanded network of brands: Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club.
> _There are two resorts in VSN: Harborside at Atlantis, and the Westin Riverfront Mountain Resort, where Owners of VOIs at these properties will not have the option to elect to receive Club Points immediately after the launch of this program. Consequently, other Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve vacations at these resorts. We anticipate that this is temporary, and that Owners of VOIs at these two resorts will be able to elect to receive Club Points in the future._
> Club Points may also be used for cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation protection, golf, airline miles, car rental, resort credit, vacation homes, and more.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, will I receive the equivalent vacation buying power as my VOI(s) would have received?*
> 
> Electing to receive Club Points for your eligible VOI(s) is not a 1:1 trade because the currencies of the two systems are different.
> If you believe that you will return to your Home Resort(s) or to another resort that is currently available through VSN, you may not wish to elect to receive Club Points. We recommend Owners look at the number of Club Points you will receive, and the number of Club Points required for the vacations you would like to confirm prior to making this decision.
> Similarly, the number of Club Points required for stays depends on where and when you plan to travel. Peak season dates in larger villas will require more Club Points, and shoulder season travel in smaller villas will require fewer Club Points. Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require fewer Club Points than weekend stays.
> 
> *If I want to vacation at my Home Resort(s), should I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> If you are certain you want to visit your Home Resort(s), it may be better to reserve using your Home Options or your week as you always have, rather than electing to receive Club Points. We recommend you understand the Club Points Charts prior to electing in order to understand the best value for your desired vacations.
> While Club Points may be used to reserve Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, the number of nights you can confirm using Club Points versus using your existing VOI(s) may differ based on the different currencies. We recommend you look at the Club Points Charts prior to making your decision. _Points charts coming soon._
> Additionally, while you enjoy a priority reservation window when booking your Home Resort(s), inventory from your Home Resort may be limited in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ because it will depend on whether Home Resort Owners elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) in a given year.
> *What are Club Points?*
> 
> Club Points are a flexible vacation currency which can be used to reserve vacations throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program including:
> Reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and Marriott Vacation Club Pulse® properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts.
> We anticipate that availability of Sheraton and Westin Vacation Club inventory through Abound will be limited because it becomes available in the Abound network when a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs.
> Reservations at these resorts may be made for any check-in date, villa size, and number of nights, based on availability.
> 
> Cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation homes, safaris, and more. Club Points can also be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Member of Abound.
> 
> *When I don't reserve my Home Resort during the Home Resort preference period, my VOI(s) can be used as StarOptions within the VSN float window. Will I be able to use them as Club Points instead?*
> 
> No, for years when you want to use Club Points, you must take action by electing to receive Club Points prior to the applicable deadline. Election does not happen automatically.
> *When is the deadline to elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> For the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members at all benefit levels will have until December 31, 2022 to elect to receive Club Points for their eligible VOIs.
> For future Use Years, the deadlines will be as follows:
> Owner, Select, and Executive benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by September 30 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is September 30, 2023.
> Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by October 31 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is October 31, 2023.
> You may elect to receive Club Points as early as 25 months prior to your Use Year and begin using Club Points to confirm the following years’ vacations or you may borrow them to confirm a vacation in the preceding year. For example, you could elect to receive Club Points for your 2026 Use Year as early as December 1, 2023, for use between January 1, 2026 (by borrowing) through December 31, 2026, or even later, if you bank your Club Points.
> 
> *Why should I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> You may decide to elect to receive Club Points when planning a vacation at more than 70 Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, including destinations in Europe, Asia, the Caribbean, and Central America, and at Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property locations in San Francisco, South Beach, New York, Washington D.C., or San Diego.
> Club Points may also be used to confirm thousands of other experiences, including:
> Hundreds of cruise itineraries worldwide
> Dozens of guided tours to destinations like Italy, China, Ireland, Machu Picchu, the Galapagos, and Africa
> Stays at 100+ hotels
> Culinary tours
> Car rental, travel protection, golf certificates, and frequent flyer miles
> VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and above can reserve luxury private homes through Villas of Distinction and premier events.
> 
> *CLUB POINTS RESERVATIONS & WAITLIST*
> Internal waitlist for VSN Members:
> 
> VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels may use their StarOptions to place a VSN waitlist request if the in-network reservation they desire is not immediately available to confirm.
> VSN Members at any Owner benefit level who elect to receive Club Points may use them to place an internal waitlist request for reservations at resorts and properties throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations network if the vacation you desire is not immediately available to reserve.
> Waitlist timeframes using Club Points are as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit Level12 Months prior to arrival – Friday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, and Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail12 Months prior to arrival – following Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at resorts in the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) including Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club Villa Resorts10 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, VSN resorts and the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail6 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Luxury Properties, other than the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail*Owner and Select benefit level Owner7 or more consecutive nights7 or more consecutive nightsAny Number of NightsAny number of NightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s Club benefit level OwnersAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of Nights
> 
> *What are Club Points in a holding account?*
> 
> When you cancel a reservation made using Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or a Luxury Property from 60 days to 1 day prior to arrival, or for one of the other reasons above, they are returned in a holding account.
> Club Points in a holding account may be used to confirm another reservation only within 60 days of arrival.
> They can be used for reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resorts through Abound by Marriott Vacations™ within 60 days of check-in.
> They can be used to confirm a Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes reservation.
> They can be used to reserve select vacations and experiences including cruises, group tours, and more.
> Club Points from a holding account must be used by the end of the Use Year and may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Owner.
> *What are the cancellation policies for Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury Property?*
> 
> Vacation Canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in60 days to 1 day prior to check-inAll Owner Benefit LevelsClub Points are returned unrestricted.Club Points are returned in a holding account.VSN Members who use a 20% Points premium in order to confirm 13 months prior to check inPoints premium is returned in a holding account. Other Club Points are returned unrestricted.Points premium is forfeited. Other Club Points are returned in a holding account.Owner and Select benefit level VSN Members who reserve a vacation for 7 or more nights before the 10-month window, and then modify the reservation to less than 7-nights once they are within the 10-month windowClub Points attributable to the difference in the number of nights are returned in a holding account.
> 
> *What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*
> 
> Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.
> Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve 7 or more consecutive nights 12-months prior to arrival; Owners at the Executive benefit level and higher may reserve any number of nights as early as 12-months prior to arrival.
> Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve any number of nights beginning 10 months prior to arrival.
> 
> Owner Benefit Level12 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays following when the 12 Month inventory is available for Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner and Select7 or more nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort.
> 
> Availability starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by VSN members electing to receive Club Points.
> *When can I book a reservation using Club Points?*
> 
> When you use Club Points for a reservation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or at a Luxury Property, there are four booking windows, as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit Level13 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)12 Months prior to arrival (Fridays)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)6 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property with payment of a 20% Points premium7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Select7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property (without the Points premium)7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Executive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury PropertyPlace waitlist request for any number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or propertyNot a reservation or waitlist windowPlace waitlist request for a Luxury Property*
> * There is a 3 night minimum stay requirement at The Ritz-Carlton Club, St. Thomas, and the 6 month reservation window for Owner and Select benefit levels does not apply to The Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail, for which the normal reservation windows will apply.
> 
> If the reservation you want to confirm is not immediately available, you may place a waitlist request as outlined above. The following waitlist guidelines apply:
> Waitlist requests are fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis and may be capped.
> You may request more than one check-in date and location. The number of Club Points required for the most expensive vacation of all of those requested will be placed in a pending status while you remain on the waitlist.
> You may determine the length of time you would like to remain on the waitlist — up to 24 hours prior to arrival.
> If the request is not confirmed or is canceled, the Club Points that were placed in a pending status will be released and made available for use as if no waitlist request had been made.
> The normal cancellation policy applies for reservations confirmed by the waitlist: Reservations canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in are returned to an Owner’s account, unrestricted. Reservations canceled from 60 days to 1 day prior to check-in are returned in a holding account.
> Waitlist timeframes are based on Owner benefit level and are set forth in the chart above.
> 
> *CRUISES, HOTELS, AND MORE*
> *Do I have to elect to receive Club Points for my eligible VOIs in order to access the additional travel offerings?*
> 
> Yes, but only for those travel offerings obtained through Abound by Marriott Vacations™. There are Owner Cruises and hotel stays available through your membership in VSN which can be confirmed using your StarOptions.
> *How do I book these additional travel offerings?*
> 
> Log in to the Owner website to explore the additional travel offerings that are available. Once you are ready to make a reservation, contact Owner Services.
> *What additional travel experiences may I get through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> Abound by Marriott Vacations™ allows you to enjoy exceptional travel opportunities and one-of-a-kind adventures including cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, golf, and outdoor adventures such as river rafting. You can also use your Club Points to enhance a resort vacation, such as with car rental, airline frequent flyer miles, resort credit, golf instruction, local activities, and more. Learn more about these opportunities here.
> *MARRIOTT BONVOY*
> *Are the Marriott Bonvoy conversion deadlines changing?*
> 
> Yes, the deadline to convert your VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points is changing as follows beginning in 2023:
> Members of VSN Marriott Bonvoy Conversion Deadlines will be adjusted beginning in 2023 as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelCurrent Deadline to Convert to Bonvoy Points2023 Deadline to ConvertFrequencyOwner and Select benefit levelsMarch 31 of Current Use YearJune 30 of the Current Use YearNon-consecutive Use YearsExecutive benefit levelJuly 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use YearPresidential benefit levelOctober 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonusChairman’s Club benefit levelsOctober 1st of Current Use YearOctober 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonus
> Additionally, the expiration date of Marriott Bonvoy points is changing from 6 years (regardless of activity) to 24 months without activity in their account. This means that as long as a VSN Member has any activity in their Marriott Bonvoy account within 24 months, the Bonvoy Points will not expire.
> As a VSN Member, I currently receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite membership upgrade. Will this change through the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations?
> 
> Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level
> 
> Each year, your Owner benefit level will be reviewed, and the corresponding Marriott Bonvoy Elite level will be renewed. Owners will have an opportunity to designate one person who is named on the ownership to receive the upgrade.
> *Will the expiration period for Marriott Bonvoy points change?*
> 
> Marriott Bonvoy points received from conversion of VSN VOIs will align with Abound by Marriott Vacations™ rules and will not expire unless there is no Marriott Bonvoy booking activity within a rolling two-year period. Qualifying activity can include payment of maintenance fees and Club Dues on a Marriott Bonvoy charge card. Or charging incidentals to your villa when you stay at a resort in the network and your Marriott Bonvoy account is attached to your reservation. Learn more about what constitutes a qualifying activity on Marriott.com.
> Existing Bonvoy points issued to VSE Owners would be tracked and continue to expire based on the 6-year expiration rule currently in place.
> *INTERVAL INTERNATIONAL*
> *I can already use my VOI(s) to request an Interval International exchange. Can I now also use Club Points for an Interval International exchange?*
> 
> Beginning in 2023, you will have two ways to exchange with Interval International: Using your weeks-based or Points-based VOI(s) or using Club Points.
> Please be aware that when using Club Points with Interval, you may _only place an External Exchange request for resorts that are not affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™_. This is because you have access to the Abound internal exchange network that allows you to reserve a resort in the Abound network using Club Points, so there is not a requirement to exchange through Interval.
> *Once I’ve elected to receive Club Points, can I exchange them through Interval International?*
> 
> Yes, beginning in January, 2023. However, Owners may not use Club Points to place an Internal Exchange to another resort in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ network. Club Points may only be used for External Exchange requests through Interval.
> This is because Club Points may be used to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, or Westin Vacation Club resorts directly through the Abound reservation system, and there is no need to place an exchange request through Interval.
> Once you have determined your desired external resort(s) or destination, size of accommodation, and the time of year you would like to travel (based on Interval’s Travel Demand Index), the following chart will tell you how many Club Points are required for a 7-night stay.
> VSN Members may log in to their membership account at intervalworld.com as of January 2023 to search for availability or place a pending request using Club Points. Since Club Points may be used for External Exchanges, an External Exchange fee will need to be paid by the Member for each week requested.
> 
> �
> 
> TRAVEL DEMAND INDEX (TDI)*STUDIO1 BR2 BR3 BRNumber of Club Points Required for a 7-Night Stay Based on Size of Accommodation:140-150 (Peak)2,250>3,0004,5006,000115-135 (High)1,7502,7504,0005,00090-110 (Medium)1,5002,2503,0004,00050-85 (Low)1,0001,5002,2503,000
> * As of August 9, 2022
> 
> *Will I continue to pay the Interval International internal exchange fee of $154?*
> 
> Separate internal exchange fees (requests to exclusively go to other Vistana and Marriott Vacation Club resorts) through Interval International will not be charged if you pay annual Club Dues for Abound usage.
> However, if you elect to receive Club Points, they may not currently be used for an Interval Exchange. When they may be used for an Interval Exchange, Club Dues are restricted to external exchanges only and may not be used for an internal exchange to a resort in Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *FEES, DUES AND LOANS*
> How will my VSN Membership Fees change through the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™?
> 
> Through this affiliation, the VSN annual network membership fee and transaction fees, previously paid a la carte, are being replaced with one fee called Club Dues. This consolidated fee structure is in lieu of separate usage fees and is based on your Owner benefit level. The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for Members of the VSN). VSN members who opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees. These Club Dues will either be billed as a separate line item on your maintenance fee bill or mailed separately depending on the VOIs owned.
> *I am a biennial Owner. How often will I be billed Club Dues for Abound usage?*
> 
> You will be billed the full Club Dues annually, since you can use any banked StarOptions, elected Club Points; deposits with Interval, or Marriott Bonvoy points every year.
> *I own VOIs enrolled in both VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™. Will I be assessed multiple Club Dues?*
> 
> As long as you are the primary Owner on all of your contracts, the total number of Club Points attributable to those VOIs across the brands will result in one Owner benefit level. Your single Club Dues will be based on that Owner benefit level.
> However, it is possible that some contracts cannot be grouped together. This could result in an additional Club Dues assessment depending on how an Owner has taken title of different contracts.
> Any VOIs that are not enrolled in VSN and any Marriott Vacation Club week that is not enrolled in Abound are not factored into your Club Dues.
> *If I do not pay my Club Dues, what are my reservation options?*
> 
> VSN Members that have voluntary enrollment associated with their VOI(s) who do not pay annual Club Dues will be deemed to have opted out and become unenrolled in VSN and unaffiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.  These Owners will then only have Home Resort usage or the ability to exchange through an affiliated exchange provider (using an individual exchange provider account subject to payment of a membership fee).
> VSN Members that have mandatory enrollment associated with their VOI(s) will not be unenrolled from VSN but not paying full Club Dues will be deemed an opt-out of the Abound exchange program; however, if delinquent in the payment of VSN Membership Fees and/or separate transactional fees, all VSN benefits and Home Resort usage rights may be suspended.
> VSN Members whose Owner benefit levels were elevated due to the grandfathering policy at the time of the affiliation will lose that elevated Owner benefit level if they are unenrolled from VSN and, in the event of reenrollment, will receive an Owner benefit level based on the current criteria and will no longer be eligible to enjoy the benefits of the grandfathering policy.
> VSN Members who are unenrolled from VSN, who opt-out, or who do not pay their Club Dues, will no longer have the option to elect to receive Club Points and may be subject to additional fees to reenroll in VSN or opt-in and regain the option of electing to receive Club Points. Additionally, Owners who are unenrolled from VSN will lose all VSN benefits including the ability to reserve an in-network reservation with StarOptions, complete any transaction using StarOptions (such as StarOptions Banking or Borrowing, VSN Select, Resort Credits, travel insurance), their Interval International corporate membership and the ability to assign/deposit their VOI(s) under that membership, or convert to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> *In the past, I paid a VSN membership fee. Will I still be paying these annual fees?*
> 
> No. For Abound usage, the VSN network membership fees will be replaced with annual Club Dues beginning in 2023. Effective 2023, the VSN membership fee will be between $170 and $235.
> *VSN has a fee of $50 to cancel reservations within 60–7 days before arrival and of $75 for less than 7 days before arrival. Will that be eliminated?*
> 
> Yes. Cancellation fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.
> *What is my annual Club Dues amount?*
> 
> Your annual Club Dues amount is determined by your Owner benefit level;
> The 2023 Club Dues are:
> Owner and Select: $230
> Executive and Presidential: $270
> Chairman’s Club: $295
> 
> _Annual Club Dues amounts are subject to change._
> *What is the value of Club Dues versus my previous VSN membership and a la carte fees?*
> 
> Depending on the annual usage options you choose and the type of vacations you reserve, Club Dues may be more or less than the VSN network membership fees plus the a la carte fees you paid in the past. Here is the consolidated chart for your reference.
> 
> Transaction2023 Fees that will be eliminated with AboundVSN Network Membership Fee$170 to $235Additional Housekeeping Fees$38 to $105 per stayConvert to Marriott Bonvoy Points$164Banking StarOptions$109VSN Select$145Interval International Membership$99Internal Exchange with Interval*$154 per weekCancellation Fee$50 to $75Guest Fee for VSN Reservations$59
> * External exchange fees, which were $209 per week in 2022, will not be eliminated. Internal Exchanges are requests to use your VOI(s) exclusively to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort in the Interval International external exchange network. Note that after electing to receive Club Points, they may not be used to place an Internal Exchange request with Interval. Note that Club Points may not be used to place an External exchange request (to resorts outside of the Abound by Marriott Vacations network) until 2023. If you wish to place an external exchange request with Interval in 2022, you must use your 2022 VOIs.
> 
> Here is one example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:
> 
> Example: 1 VOI OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$170-0-Club Dues for Owner/Select benefit level Owners-0-$230*Convert small side of lock-off to Bonvoy points$164-0-Internal Exchange using large side of lock-off$154-0-Total$488$230 (Savings $258)
> * 2023 Club Dues for the Owner/Select benefit levels
> 
> *What separate VSN fees will no longer be charged when Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out?*
> 
> When Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out, the following VSN fees will be eliminated:
> VSN membership (which for 2023 is between $170 and $235, currently billed with your maintenance fees)
> Additional housekeeping fees associated with multiple reservations (over and above the one housekeeping fee included in your maintenance fee)
> Banking StarOptions
> Reservation cancellations and rebooking fees
> Interval International membership
> Internal Exchanges
> Converting to Marriott Bonvoy points
> Electing, banking, borrowing, or transferring Club Points
> 
> The a la carte transactional fees will continue through 2022 and be replaced by Club Dues beginning in 2023 (unless a VSN member can and has chosen to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of Abound, in which case that VSN member will be responsible for continuing to pay all of the separate VSN transactional fees).
> *When will I receive my first bill for Club Dues?*
> 
> Club Dues will be billed in 2022 for your 2023 usage.
> *Why aren’t Club Dues the same for all Owner benefit levels?*
> 
> Those with a higher Owner benefit level own more and have more vacation-related transactions throughout the year. Despite the slightly higher Club Dues, VSN Members at the higher benefit levels may still potentially save money by paying full Club Dues rather than paying a la carte fees.
> Here is an example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:
> 
> Example: 3 VOIs OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$235-0-Club Dues for Executive benefit level Owners-0-$270*Convert 1st VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points$164-0-Pay third-party guest fee of 2nd VOI lock-off$59-0-Internal Exchange II of 2nd VOI (other part of lock-off)$154-0-Occupy 3rd Interest-0--0-Total$612$270 (Savings $342)
> * 2023 Club Dues for the Executive/Presidential benefit levels
> 
> *Will annual Club Dues for Abound usage cover housekeeping fees for stays that exceed the one housekeeping allotment in my annual maintenance fees?*
> 
> Yes, for reservations made on or after January 1, 2023.
> *Will I be required to pay Club Dues even if I do not elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> Yes. Club Dues are replacing the previous VSN network membership fee and the a la carte fees for reservations and transactions such as canceling a reservation and converting to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> In many cases, this will result in savings for VSN Members.
> *Will the third-party guest fee of $59 be eliminated?*
> 
> Yes, third-party guest fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.
> 
> Adding PDF Attachments;


I'm a Riverfront owner.  Any reason why this property will not be included at launch?


----------



## wallace37

remowidget said:


> They are giving MVC status based upon VSN status. For example, 3 star will be Abound Executive. However, the Abound points they get might not be enough for them to be executive.


Any idea which would apply where the Abound points aren't enough?  For instance, 3 star, but EOY of mandatory (resale) WKORVN OF.  Would the status be Executive or the lower since points are halved?


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> as far as the fees, it will benefit me to have one club dues considering everything that’s included. However, there are many not so savvy owners who will end up paying 80 dollars more without ever using abound.



I think that depends on how they handle the notifications about the opt-out option as we get closer to operational "go live" day. If they bury the opt-out option in the FAQs or fine print, then yes, I agree with you - many that don't need to pay still will. But if they make the opt-out communication action as a email or snail mail letter, then maybe the less savvy owners will get that opportunity more directly presented to them. Their *intent *seems to be to minimize the negative impacts to VSN owners vs. going for a quick fee boost, so maybe they will be more proactive in their notification.


----------



## remowidget

There are now 16 videos available on the resources section of vistana.com


			Login | Vistana Signature Experiences


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> *I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation. *
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> *ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS...*





Maybe I missed it but, between all this info and threads on tug, do we know yet how they will match ownership with Vistana and MVC?

Specifically - if owners currently own with both MVC and Vistana, how do they make sure to match the ownerships so that those owners qualify for combined Elite status and can combine Trust and/or elected points for reservations? Is it by Bonvoy number, mobile number, name + address?


----------



## kozykritter

MBJC said:


> I'm a Riverfront owner.  Any reason why this property will not be included at launch?


It's because that property is not owned by Vistana. It was built by and is still owned and operated by East West Hospitality, the developer of the Westin hotel there as well as all those rentals that have gone up recently on both sides of the property. There's an existing agreement between Marriott and the developer that will have to be renegotiated before Riverfront can become part of Abound. It's a similar situation at Harborside where there's a joint owner.


----------



## wjarcher

wallace37 said:


> Any idea which would apply where the Abound points aren't enough?  For instance, 3 star, but EOY of mandatory (resale) WKORVN OF.  Would the status be Executive or the lower since points are halved?



3 star will be "grandfathered" in.  If you sell any ownership after, then the level might drop based on the points of your remaining ownership.  What they are basically doing is to take the higher level between your VSN level and the level calculated based on the points of your eligible weeks.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> Maybe I missed it but, between all this info and threads on tug, do we know yet how they will match ownership with Vistana and MVC?
> 
> Specifically - if owners currently own with both MVC and Vistana, how do they make sure to match the ownerships so that those owners qualify for combined Elite status and can combine Trust and/or elected points for reservations? Is it by Bonvoy number, mobile number, name + address?


There was a big emphasis in the FAQs about names matching on the titles so I feel like that's going to be a big factor in that process.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> It’s not a loop hole. It’s an aspect of ownership and a benefit sold to us when we purchased…. I was told by my sales rep “it’s a benefit they can never take away” she used the word benefit, not loophole.


Your right its a benefit  that cannot be taking away but then then they just indirectly did . What’s the point of having that benefit if the chances to go to Maui, Lagunamar, etc become severely reduced with time? You can have that benefit all you want but if you cannot use it they way you have or intended then it’s lost.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Maybe I missed it but, between all this info and threads on tug, do we know yet how they will match ownership with Vistana and MVC?
> 
> Specifically - if owners currently own with both MVC and Vistana, how do they make sure to match the ownerships so that those owners qualify for combined Elite status and can combine Trust and/or elected points for reservations? Is it by Bonvoy number, mobile number, name + address?


I don't know.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I feel bad for all of those unsuspecting owners with only one ownership. They will have their fees increase from 150 to 230 automatically. They are putting it on the owner to opt out…. They should be putting it on the owner to opt in!



That's me! My SDO's are voluntary. But, I routinely get charged $38 for housekeeping since I redeem my SOs for ~20-30 nights each year, so since housekeeping is included with the $230 I'm good with it.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Ignoring the abound program still increases every VSN owners yearly fees by at least 80 dollars.



Is it ~$230 per ownership week or per account?


----------



## teddyo333

dioxide45 said:


> Can you provide some more information on what you own exactly? What season is each of these line items? What phase at SBP and SVV?



This is what we own:

Vistana Villages Key West - 2 Bedroom -  Annual - (Platinum 81K SO)
Vistana Villages Bella - 2 Bedroom - Annual - (Gold Plus 67K SO)
Marriott Grande Ocean - 2 Bedroom - Annual - (Gold Season) (MCV Unit)
Sheraton Desert Oasis - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Red Season)
Sheraton Desert Oasis - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Red Season)
Sheraton Desert Oasis - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Red Season)
Sheraton Desert Oasis - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Red Season)
Sheraton Desert Oasis - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Red Season)
Westin Kierland - 1 Bedroom Premium - Annual - (Platinum Plus 81K SO)
Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort - 1 Bedroom Premium - Annual - (Platinum Plus 81K SO) 
Sheraton Broadway Plantation - 2 Bedroom Lockout - Annual - (Gold Plus Season/ Plantation Phase)


----------



## SteveS1

ocdb8r said:


> Harborside - big question mark if it will join and how it will be valued.



Since our suspicion is starting 2024 (since its doubtful many will opt in for 2023 club points before end of 2022) high demand inventory like Maui, Ski weeks and Lagunamar will be taken from VSN and only available through Abound  I wonder if that will increase the value of Harborside prime weeks , as long as they aren't going into Abound.. therefore making it harder to get since it may be the most desirable place left. I guess there will be some decision on Harborside before end of next year.. something else to speculate on..


----------



## Ken555

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> What was the developer (or even resale) purchase price on WKV v WKORV/N? I know we paid around $45K (developer) for WKORV/N IV.



Irrelevant. SVN assigned WKV 2-bd platinum plus 148k. It doesn't matter what they charged for it, or the comparison to other resorts in the network. They set the rate at 148k, not us. 

This may be a good time to remind everyone that buyers do have influence. When they first started selling Lagunamar they had it max out at ~93k SOs and they couldn't sell it, so had to increase to 148k. This is another example of how the cost for the week has only a symbolic association, if even that, to its SO value.



> Maybe WKV are unhappy because they have had it so good in the past but maybe not so in the future? However, as you say, there will still be ways to get more than the 'paid for' value out of WKV.



D'oh. Of course. We had it great for years and we knew it. We've had thousands of posts on TUG over the years about it. For those of us who are flexible with our schedule we can stretch our SOs and use them at resorts which otherwise would cost more. I don't really think this is going to change other than it will likely be more difficult to find availability.


----------



## DeniseM

I am going to start deleting chit chat/social posts.  This thread is already 14 pages long - think about the people who come to this thread to learn about new system, and have to wade through a lot of other stuff.  *Stay on topic people!*


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Those numbers for WKV were pretty realistic for 2022, with post pandemic travel and no travel restrictions. But $4000-$4200 was pretty "normal" even before then for a platinum week. Even at those lower rates, 4050 Abound points is way too low for me to consider. Like you, I own other Marriott weeks and would much rather elect 5300 points for my NCV week 26 that I can otherwise also rent for around $4K.
> 
> As a rule, I compare (week rental value / point) vs. the cost of renting points from someone (about $0.7). If they are within 10%-15%, or if the former is lower, then I would consider electing Abound points for that week. Otherwise, I feel like I'm leaving too much money on the table for the convenience of Abound election.
> 
> I understand the issues you cite with renting weeks. But renting points is a lot easier - just transfer points and you are done... there is really no other commitment. There is some chance of fraud if you rent points from someone else, because you are asked to pay first. So, I might pay a bit more just to deal with a seller I know I can trust. If people outside of TUG don't do it, I suspect it's because many are not even aware that's it's a possibility.
> 
> I think your post also illustrates well why WKV owners are unhappy with the 4050 Abound points election number.
> WKV Plat=WKORV/N with 148,100 Staroptions
> WKV Plat=WKORV/N with rental value (give or take)
> Yet one is 4050 points, and one is 6200 points...



Actually, I think getting 4050 points for any enrolled week in Abound is extremely generous. I only get 4950 points for my enrolled Ko Olina week and that is Hawaii. I really do not get all the complaining about conversion rates. I think people have unrealistic expectations.

I just suggested that someone on Tug rent out their week when they do not use it. They said no way and cited the reasons I mentioned. Even many Tuggers are not into renting. I think your rationale for renting is good for you and some people but not for most owners. If they do not know about renting then they are the type who just do not care about that stuff or they would know their options better and how to maximize their timeshare ownership.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I have my issues with the two year banking period and the 8/8 cutoff date. I am getting screwed by 10 days with my latest resale but that’s life I guess. It would have been nice to see the cut off date for resale inclusion to have been the date they released the FAQ’s.
> 
> Ignoring the abound program still increases every VSN owners yearly fees by at least 80 dollars.



Marriott announced factually back in March that the Abound program was being launched this year. It was in the resorts and people posted here on Tug. The original date to launch has kept getting pushed back. I decided not to buy any resales since I thought what happened to you could happen to me and I did not want to risk it.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Is it ~$230 per ownership week or per account?


Per account, similar to the way the VSN fee is set up now. I believe the highest is 270 for multiple.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Actually, I think getting 4050 points for any enrolled week in Abound is extremely generous.



Disagree. If I can't get the same result in Abound as I can in VSN, then it's anything but generous. Are you sure you don't own lots of Marriott stock?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Marriott announced factually back in March that the Abound program was being launched this year. It was in the resorts and people posted here on Tug. The original date to launch has kept getting pushed back. I decided not to buy any resales since I thought what happened to you could happen to me and I did not want to risk it.


If mandatory resale units are not actually enrolled,  none of this matters anyway. I bought 2 more post March which transferred. If those are eligible, then they would get me to executive level. In which case, it was good to buy those resale weeks. I just happened to get a bit screwed with this latest resale. In the end it’s not that much of a big deal, I can always use it for VSN, interval exchanges, or sell it


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Disagree. If I can't get the same result in Abound as I can in VSN, then it's anything but generous. Are you sure you don't own lots of Marriott stock?



I try to see the positive in most things. I also read the mantra on Tug a long time ago to buy where you want to go and to expect timeshare rules to change.

BTW I would never buy Marriott stock!


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> If mandatory resale units are not actually enrolled,  none of this matters anyway. I bought 2 more post March which transferred. If those are eligible, then they would get me to executive level. In which case, it was good to buy those resale weeks. I just happened to get a bit screwed with this latest resale. In the end it’s not that much of a big deal, I can always use it for VSN, interval exchanges, or sell it



I just would not use the word ”screwed” since you knew factually it was coming since March, and we knew since at least 2018 as well.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I try to see the positive in most things. I also read the mantra on Tug a long time ago to buy where you want to go and to expect timeshare rules to change.



I have owned WKV since 2005 (first use year 2006) and if I had bought only where I wanted to go I would have spent tens of thousands in additional costs over the years. The entire point of timeshares is to have flexibility, which includes the ability to easily trade to other locations. As I have posted numerous times in the past, I do not regret my purchase and have had great value from it even if I decide to sell it. I've also posted many, many times about the lack of assurance that the internal trading network would not change. 

Risk adverse buyers should absolutely buy at their prime destination.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I try to see the positive in most things. I also read the mantra on Tug a long time ago to buy where you want to go and to expect timeshare rules to change.
> 
> BTW I would never buy Marriott stock!


I get that mantra, but it’s not always correct. While I want to go to Orlando I don’t need be stuck going there because I own there. I’ve used a small one bedroom in SVV and exchanged into a two bedroom Westin Nanea twice. I’ve also exchanged into MSU, MAO, MGK, and others. I’ve done great things with the SO in the VSN as well. As long as there is an exchange company to utilize then you don’t need to own where you want to go.

Speaking of interval, am I understanding this correctly? If you elect your VSN VOI for club points, you can exchange the club points in interval for external exchanges only, and cannot exchange back into any VSN resort or MVC resort because they are available in the abound exchange? So in order to use your VSN VOI for a Vistana or Marriott resort in interval you have to deposit the week directly into interval?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I just would not use the word ”screwed” since you knew factually it was coming since March, and we knew since at least 2018 as well.


Well that’s not entirely correct. When Marriott employees lie to you at owners updates, then release FAQ’s one day but then apply a cutoff date back two weeks from the facts being released……I think I can call it whatever I like. Also, regardless of who did the screwing….. the dates didn’t align for one of my resale purchases. I got a bit screwed, a little by the post dating of the cutoff and a little by my own doing taking the risk and buying another resale.


----------



## Grandma2016

TravelTime said:


> I own mandatory resale OF in Maui. I will be converting to Abound, unless I find out I am really not eligible for enrollment. Then I will use my week, rent it or sell it. I will not use SOs.


Can i ask why?  Do you feel SOs will be worth less


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I get that mantra, but it’s not always correct. While I want to go to Orlando I don’t need be stuck going there because I own there. I’ve used a small one bedroom in SVV and exchanged into a two bedroom Westin Nanea twice. I’ve also exchanged into MSU, MAO, MGK, and others. I’ve done great things with the SO in the VSN as well. As long as there is an exchange company to utilize then you don’t need to own where you want to go.
> 
> Speaking of interval, am I understanding this correctly? If you elect your VSN VOI for club points, you can exchange the club points in interval for external exchanges only, and cannot exchange back into any VSN resort or MVC resort because they are available in the abound exchange? So in order to use your VSN VOI for a Vistana or Marriott resort in interval you have to deposit the week directly into interval?



I do not recommend using II with club points except with exceptions. You are right in your description of how II works with Club Points. If people want to use II, most people would be happier with the exchange opportunities offered by depositing a week externally. I am not into II so this does not matter to me much.


----------



## TravelTime

Grandma2016 said:


> Can i ask why?  Do you feel SOs will be worth less



I have not had success booking with SOs. The dates available or locations available for me at 8 months have not worked out well. I have also lost SOs.


----------



## TravelTime

Technically I do not buy where I want to go either. I have only bought timeshares with at least some type of exchange capability. I am quoting the mantra because, to me, the point of the mantra is timeshare rules are always changing. We need to expect it rather than fight it. 

My husband is still completely skeptical that Marriott will be allowing free enrollment of mandatory resale weeks. I just say let’s wait and see when Marriott gets more specific. But if it does not happen, I am still okay with the changes in the Vistana program.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Actually, I think getting 4050 points for any enrolled week in Abound is extremely generous.



It's all relative... I agree that compared to other non-Hawaii resorts, it's certainly not bad at all. It's more generous than Canyon Villas as well. You can do quite a bit in Abound with 4050 points.

But it's not in line with the actual demand for the week, as measured by its cash rental value during the Platinum season, which does rival IV Hawaii weeks. If I can use rental transactions to get a 50%+ point premium (6000 Abound points for $4200), I can't ignore that option. But I do believe other owners will just take the 4050 points and use them for very nice exchanges.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> It's all relative... I agree that compared to other non-Hawaii resorts, it's certainly not bad at all. It's more generous than Canyon Villas as well. You can do quite a bit in Abound with 4050 points.
> 
> But it's not in line with the actual demand for the week, as measured by its cash rental value during the Platinum season, which does rival IV Hawaii weeks. If I can use rental transactions to get a 50%+ point premium (6000 Abound points for $4200), I can't ignore that option. But I do believe other owners will just take the 4050 points and use them for very nice exchanges.



In June 2023, I am staying in a 2BR gulf front in Marco Island for a little over 4050 points. I think it might be 4200. That is the best unit category in Marco Island. It costs about $4500 for me to pay cash rent that week. So why would I spend my time renting out 4050 points for approx $2800? Or renting the underlying week for about $4500? Just an example. Hope my math is more or less correct.


----------



## daviator

JIMinNC said:


> It’s correct that the two products - timeshares & iPhones - are different, but my comment/comparison was directed at the previous comment that a sales person saying Flex was outdated was a “scam”. Flex IS now outdated. There is something new. But Flex owners can more or less still use that product as they always have, just as I can still use my iPhone 12.
> 
> When MVC first introduced the Destination Club in 2010, traditional weeks also became outdated. There was something new. But traditional weeks still work and 40% of MVC owners still are exclusively using weeks and haven’t moved to points 12 years later. Flex and VSN will still work for a long time too. What you bought still works and will continue to work more or less as it always has. The reports of its demise appear to have been greatly exaggerated.


You can look at Flex and call it outdated, or you can look at deeded weeks and call them outdated, but I'd call them (especially the deeded weeks) quality products that you just can't get any more, at least from the developer.

I have a 60-year-old Toastmaster toaster that my parents received as a wedding gift, but left in the box unused because they already had a toaster.  I took it when I moved out of their home decades ago.  It still works great and makes fantastic toast – probably better than any of the cost-reduced toasters you could buy today.  It will probably still be working fine when I go to my grave (hopefully no earlier than a few decades from now!) 

Is the toaster outdated?  Maybe.  But it's a great product which is demonstrably better than any similar product you could buy today, despite having fewer "features."  I'd compare deeded ownerships to my toaster.  Maybe outdated, but arguably a more valuable product which will unquestionably still have value years from now.  Maybe not as flashy as its contemporaries, but also far less likely to end up in the trash.

I'm sure the manufacturer would call my old toaster outdated.  After all, they'd like to sell me a new one.


----------



## Grandma2016

TravelTime said:


> I have not had success booking with SOs. The dates available or locations available for me at 8 months have not worked out well. I have also lost SOs.


Makes sense.  I have always had good luck and now am a little anxious about it.


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> Are you sure you don't own lots of Marriott stock?





TravelTime said:


> BTW I would never buy Marriott stock!



Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) stock has been a good investment for me. I bought it three years ago at $85, now it's at $150. Each 100 shares also gets you $232/year in dividends. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a lot more when it dropped to $35 in the Covid-panic in spring 2020. That was dumb!

I decided when I first bought the stock that since I have the so called "investment" in vacations with MVC, I should also have a real investment as a shareholder. I love to own shares in companies I also like to do business with. I also bought a good bit of Apple stock back in 2008 during the crash, since I love their products, and I really love my ROI there!

But just because I own stock in VAC, I don't think that causes me to be any less objective about what they do good and what they do bad. I can praise their resorts and points product - as I often do here on TUG - but at the same time, I can be mystified as both an owner and a shareholder how they just can't seem to get the software/IT thing right.

In the end, as both an MVC owner and as a VAC shareholder, I hope the angst and fear that I hear from VSN owners on this board about the changes is replaced in a year or two with a recognition that Abound is a good product after all. It doesn't meet every need for every owner and there are always things that could be better, but all-in-all I think most MVC owners are happy with the overall program, even though we had concerns 12 years ago, too. I want to think that in a few years, VSN owners will also be largely happy. After all, you still have 95% of the benefits of the VSN program you all seem to love, but now you have the additional options in Abound also. You don't have to use it because you are not going to have to pay to play, but it's there if you ever need another option.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Please stop with these awful/tangential analogies - they don’t help.
There is no analogy that correctly addresses Timeshare issues - these situations are unique to Timeshares and nothing else.

Not a car, not a toaster, not an iPhone, not stock, not a vacation home…

What other product that so many people buy without due diligence (Research)? Amazing!

I fell for it - luckily found TUG in Dec 2005 and rescinded WKORVN OF for $74,000 (!!!). Whew!

Happy with what we have - and use it fully. Don’t need Abound or some special Elite level. Have I used it before? Yes, but those Starwood days are gone.

If MVC screws me - I will walk away (like I did with WSJ-VGV) as I bought our TSs with disposable income.

YMMV and probably does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

—


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) stock has been a good investment for me. I bought it three years ago at $85, now it's at $150. Each 100 shares also gets you $232/year in dividends. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a lot more when it dropped to $35 in the Covid-panic in spring 2020. That was dumb!
> 
> I decided when I first bought the stock that since I have the so called "investment" in vacations with MVC, I should also have a real investment as a shareholder. I love to own shares in companies I also like to do business with. I also bought a good bit of Apple stock back in 2008 during the crash, since I love their products, and I really love my ROI there!
> 
> But just because I own stock in VAC, I don't think that causes me to be any less objective about what they do good and what they do bad. I can praise their resorts and points product - as I often do here on TUG - but at the same time, I can be mystified as both an owner and a shareholder how they just can't seem to get the software/IT thing right.
> 
> In the end, as both an MVC owner and as a VAC shareholder, I hope the angst and fear that I hear from VSN owners on this board about the changes is replaced in a year or two with a recognition that Abound is a good product after all. It doesn't meet every need for every owner and there are always things that could be better, but all-in-all I think most MVC owners are happy with the overall program, even though we had concerns 12 years ago, too. I want to think that in a few years, VSN owners will also be largely happy. After all, you still have 95% of the benefits of the VSN program you all seem to love, but now you have the additional options in Abound also. You don't have to use it because you are not going to have to pay to play, but it's there if you ever need another option.



Totally agree with you. I think your comparisons are spot on. I always learn something from your posts and appreciate your positivity.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Just my 10 cents. Using the word “screwed” and saying “I can sell” gives the illusion of power and control. You can walk with your feet but I doubt Marriott cares that someone bought and sold a timeshare on the resale market. If they care, they can scoop up the inventory they actually need. Then put it in the trust and sell more points at a retail price.



You missed the point. It does not matter what Marriott thinks. If we don’t feel our ownership is worthwhile, we leave. End of story. That is the ultimate power. If they want to keep us as customers, they need to not take us for granted. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Just my 10 cents. Using the word “screwed” and saying “I can sell” gives the illusion of power and control. You can walk with your feet but I doubt Marriott cares that someone bought and sold a timeshare on the resale market. If they care, they can scoop up the inventory they actually need. Then put it in the trust and sell more points at a retail price.


Please re-read what I wrote. Thank you for your 10 cents, it’s not an illusion, I do have the power and control to sell what I bought. And yes, Marriott adding in a random date as a cutoff does “screw” people. I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, I took the risk and that last purchase didn’t work out to be part of the abound program so I partially liable for the being screwed part as well. HOWEVER, had Marriott used the day the actual FAQ’s (program details) were released, that resale WOULD have been part of the program.


----------



## kozykritter

We're off topic again and into chitchat land. Let's get back to discussing Abound and related changes


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> We're off topic again and into chitchat land. Let's get back to discussing Abound and related changes



I think this is the chit chat thread. LOL


----------



## TravelTime

—


----------



## DavidnRobin

kozykritter said:


> We're off topic again and into chitchat land. Let's get back to discussing Abound and related changes



Discussing the lack of need (and reasons why) for Abound or MVC status is relevant - IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kozykritter

DavidnRobin said:


> Discussing the lack of need (and reasons) for Abound or MVC status is relevant - IMO
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well then you have the choice not to participate in this particular thread which is labeled for exactly that.


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> Well then you have the choice not to participate in this particular thread which is labeled for exactly that.



Oops, I thought I was on the other Abound/Vistana thread where chit chatting is allowed. My mistake.

I will delete some of my non-relevant comments.


----------



## capjak

Did they ever drop an official document that shows how many club points each VSN resort?

Some on FB have stated that they called and MVC said wait until October........that seems extremely unorganized or intentionally vague such that they can continue to sell non abound club points??? 

Pretty confident that they already know what the answer is to the question.


----------



## kozykritter

capjak said:


> Did they ever drop an official document that shows how many club points each VSN resort?
> 
> Some on FB have stated that they called and MVC said wait until October........that seems extremely unorganized or intentionally vague such that they can continue to sell non abound club points???
> 
> Pretty confident that they already know what the answer is to the question.


Are you looking for a list of how many Club Points you get for each different type of Vistana ownership or are you looking for the number of Club Points it would take to book a Vistana resort?


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> In June 2023, I am staying in a 2BR gulf front in Marco Island for a little over 4050 points. I think it might be 4200. That is the best unit category in Marco Island. It costs about $4500 for me to pay cash rent that week. So why would I spend my time renting out 4050 points for approx $2800? Or renting the underlying week for about $4500? Just an example. Hope my math is more or less correct.



Yes, your math is correct. We just disagree on the path we'd take   

Crystal Shores is great. We have a short stay there annually and love that view category. But note that June is Gold season, not Platinum. WKV Platinum could not get a week at Crystal Shores in most Platinum season weeks, except in the "Standard" view category which is the lowest out of the 7 (yes, seven) view categories they have for 2BR units.

That said, suppose I could covert WKV to 4050 points and get a gulf front week at Crystal shores in June (it's actually 4250 points, but let's ignore that). I could take the easy path and just elect points and book it - that's definitely easy and convenient. Or I could rent my week out for around $4300 (conservative estimate), use $2800 to rent the points I need, and keep $1500. Is the extra time you'd spend renting out your week not worth that extra money? I'd be ok with giving up $300 or maybe even $500, but $1500 is a lot to leave on the table for that extra convenience, no? That can cover a substantial portion of airfare for the next vacation...


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> But this is just factually incorrect.
> 
> 1) The VSN points chart isn't going away;
> 
> 2) The "HomeOption" points chart isn't going away and those owners will continue to have first crack at all the same inventory in each trust (Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex and Aventuras) as Abound users will;
> 
> 3) You're whole premise is that MVC will shift all the "good weeks" from SVN to Abound, which didn't happen when they launched the DP program and is why people keep referencing what happened in 2010 - it didn't happen then, it's doubtful it will happen now, MVC has their exchange allocation approach audited by an independent auditor each year and no matter what at the end of the day they can't take any more or better weeks from VSN than VSN owners elect in to Abound;
> 
> 4) If you bought from the developer on the basis of the points charts mentioned above (that aren't changing and aren't going away) you already lost WAY more than 30-50% of the value of what you bought retail.
> 
> 
> Agreed.  I'm not saying it's all roses, but the doom and gloom is a bit much.


We are talking about the future so there are no "facts" you can show me. It is your prognosis vs mine.

1) Overnight VSN has become a second-tier exchange and Marriott is not shy about it: earlier bookings in Abound, shortening banking in VSN from 2 years to 1, incentivizing the best units to trade in Abound and so on. Banking is a huge loss for VSN but Marriott wanted to make sure there is nothing left for VSN to offer, and they used a sledgehammer to take any edge away. My prediction is that no matter how many letters people write to Marriott, the change from 2 years to 1 will stay in place, it is part of their core strategy. An exchange is only as good as the inventory you have access to and VSN is not going to be what it used to be. Very far from it. I also want to say that for every exchange network there is a minimum amount of inventory to make planning fun. If you have to waste too much energy every time you need to book or change a reservation, it really diminishes the purpose of a vacation to feel good about it and disconnect you from other issues of life.


2) If I had a dollar for every time a Marriott owner mentioned 2010! At that time, MVC was placed more or less at the same level with the resort owners. Maybe the inventory shifted a bit around but nothing major. This ain't the same thing.  For 4 months, VSN is sitting on the bench, while members can book in Abound. For four months, every time a unit is booked in Abound by a Vistana owner, Vistana unit has to be deposited in Abound and will lower the potential inventory in VSN. Guess what, the more deposits and bookings in Abound, the more Marriott can move inventory to Abound "in anticipation of Network demand" and at its "sole discretion" Bit by bit, day after day. The better Vistana units will be long gone before the VSN window opens.
The "fact" is that nobody can show me the actual rules used by Marriott to divide the inventory. Or a detailed audit dealing with this issue. We have all seen that they are relentless in getting what they want ($$$$) and I do not see why anyone would think this part of their business is conducted in any other way.

3) It is like telling a poor person, what's the problem with being even poorer, I am not sure this is a very good point. By the way, this is not applicable to me, I bought everything resale.  At the same time, like other people on this site, I pay thousands of dollars in Maintenace fees per year, and I am not indifferent to the company I am dealing with. I want to spend money where I feel there is at least an effort for mutual respect. I have considered other developers, but I waited to see how the chips fall with this "merger". 



PS I am starting to see in a different light the comment made by Denise' insider that VSN would be "dismantled". On the surface they will continue to claim that it is business as usual for VSN (or better!) but probably the internal discussions and communication are very telling a different story.


----------



## dsmrp

I think the main major question that's left is at what cost will mandatory resorts will be allowed to participate in Abound ?  The 2nd point on FAQ on eligibility applies to both retro'ed units and mandatory units.

_Eligible VOIs:_

_Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent._
_VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level._

Note my underlined portion of the 2nd bullet is not as strong or demonstrative an affirmation as the 1st bullet on developer purchases.  I might be splitting hairs, but I think it gives Marriott an option to charge a one-time fee for mandatory, and possibly retro units too, to be able to participate in Abound.  The fees mentioned in the FAQ apply only to the new club member fee: borrowing, banking, transferring, housekeeping, cancelling, or the II exchange fee.   Nowhere does it state that there is no enrollment fee.   think we heard earlier that developer units would be 'automatically' enrolled.  I'm still not sure if retros or mandatories will get in free of charge.

I have a retro'd unit, and I hope there is minimal/no fee for retros.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> We are talking about the future so there are no "facts" you can show me. It is your prognosis vs mine.
> 
> 1) Overnight VSN has become a second-tier exchange and Marriott is not shy about it: earlier bookings in Abound, shortening banking in VSN from 2 years to 1, incentivizing the best units to trade in Abound and so on. Banking is a huge loss for VSN but Marriott wanted to make sure there is nothing left for VSN to offer, and they used a sledgehammer to take any edge away. My prediction is that no matter how many letters people write to Marriott, the change from 2 years to 1 will stay in place, it is part of their core strategy. An exchange is only as good as the inventory you have access to and VSN is not going to be what it used to be. Very far from it. I also want to say that for every exchange network there is a minimum amount of inventory to make planning fun. If you have to waste too much energy every time you need to book or change a reservation, it really diminishes the purpose of a vacation to feel good about it and disconnect you from other issues of life.
> 
> 
> 2) If I had a dollar for every time a Marriott owner mentioned 2010! At that time, MVC was placed more or less at the same level with the resort owners. Maybe the inventory shifted a bit around but nothing major. This ain't the same thing.  For 4 months, VSN is sitting on the bench, while members can book in Abound. For four months, every time a unit is booked in Abound by a Vistana owner, Vistana unit has to be deposited in Abound and will lower the potential inventory in VSN. Guess what, the more deposits and bookings in Abound, the more Marriott can move inventory to Abound "in anticipation of Network demand" and at its "sole discretion" Bit by bit, day after day. The better Vistana units will be long gone before the VSN window opens.
> The "fact" is that nobody can show me the actual rules used by Marriott to divide the inventory. Or a detailed audit dealing with this issue. We have all seen that they are relentless in getting what they want ($$$$) and I do not see why anyone would think this part of their business is conducted in any other way.
> 
> 3) It is like telling a poor person, what's the problem with being even poorer, I am not sure this is a very good point. By the way, this is not applicable to me, I bought everything resale.  At the same time, like other people on this site, I pay thousands of dollars in Maintenace fees per year, and I am not indifferent to the company I am dealing with. I want to spend money where I feel there is at least an effort for mutual respect. I have considered other developers, but I waited to see how the chips fall with this "merger". I may also consider other options; I am not sure I want to have a panic attack every time I need a change for a reservation and
> 
> 
> 
> PS I am starting to see in a different light the comment made by Denise' insider that VSN would be "dismantled". On the surface they will continue to claim that it is business as usual for VSN (or better!) but probably the internal discussions and communication are very telling a different story.



Agreed. Its hard to disagree with this. People keep on bringing up 2010, but I agree, this is no where near the same thing. In 2010, Marriott didn’t have a points exchange program like Vistana did. They were behind in their product offerings. When they rolled out their points product it came with layers and layers of complications, it still has them. Sure Marriott owners didn’t mind it, it was new to them, they had nothing to compare it to. MVC owners here do their best to diminish Vistana owners concerns in these threads. But they fail to realize that we had a superior hybrid product and we are watching it being diminished. We have all been told that the VSN would be dismantled at every owners update since 2018, yet when we voice concerns over Marriott dismantling what we own we are called conspiracy theorists by the Marriott loyalists.

Marriott will absolutely take the best inventory in anticipation of network demand. Marriott controlling inventory cannot be trusted.

yes, it seems the contact was correct about the dismantling, also does anyone know when we can expect a points chart?


----------



## CPNY

dsmrp said:


> I think the main major question that's left is at what cost will mandatory resorts will be allowed to participate in Abound ?  The 2nd point on FAQ on eligibility applies to both retro'ed units and mandatory units.
> 
> _Eligible VOIs:_
> 
> _Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent._
> _VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level._
> 
> Note my underlined portion of the 2nd bullet is not as strong or demonstrative an affirmation as the 1st bullet on developer purchases.  I might be splitting hairs, but I think it gives Marriott an option to charge a one-time fee for mandatory, and possibly retro units too, to be able to participate in Abound.  The fees mentioned in the FAQ apply only to borrowing, banking, transferring, housekeeping, cancelling.  Nowhere does it state that there is no fee for enrolling.  I think we heard earlier that developer units would be 'automatically' enrolled.  I'm still not sure if retros or mandatories will get in free of charge.
> 
> I have a retro'd unit, and I hope there is minimal/no fee for retros.


I wonder if anyone has made a purchase this past weekend at a resort to “retro” a resale voluntary unit. If they did would that unit qualify? Technically it wasn’t in the VSN before 8/9.


----------



## Jimmyboy

byeloe said:


> owning Maui is the special case for converting to Abound because of the large amount of points.  Most of the other VSN resorts will benefit more from the use of staroptions



Yes and they are hoping you convert so they can send the Marriott people their and use up all of their points


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> I think the main major question that's left is at what cost will mandatory resorts will be allowed to participate in Abound ?  The 2nd point on FAQ on eligibility applies to both retro'ed units and mandatory units.
> 
> _Eligible VOIs:_
> 
> _Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent._
> _VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level._
> 
> Note my underlined portion of the 2nd bullet is not as strong or demonstrative an affirmation as the 1st bullet on developer purchases.  I might be splitting hairs, but I think it gives Marriott an option to charge a one-time fee for mandatory, and possibly retro units too, to be able to participate in Abound.  The fees mentioned in the FAQ apply only to the new club member fee: borrowing, banking, transferring, housekeeping, cancelling, or the II exchange fee.   Nowhere does it state that there is no enrollment fee.   think we heard earlier that developer units would be 'automatically' enrolled.  I'm still not sure if retros or mandatories will get in free of charge.
> 
> I have a retro'd unit, and I hope there is minimal/no fee for retros.


Yes, that language is not as definite as the one for developer purchases. Actually on the original information page they posted on vistana.com which is still there on the website, it used the words resales "will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club points" which really implied that there could be another step before they could elect points and that could likely be an enrollment fee or something else. The FAQ language that you quoted is a little more direct but still less direct than for the developer purchases. It's one of those things that we might not know for sure until Abound launches and then you try to convert to Club points. I'd like to think they would have told owners up front about an enrollment fee rather than springing it on them later. Fingers crossed!


----------



## CPNY

If one opts out of Abound club dues, did the regular VSN club dues go from $155 to 170?


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> If one opts out of Abound club dues, did the regular VSN club dues go from $155 to 170?


Yes it was revealed in the FAQs that the basic is now $170. I believe it also mentioned somewhere along the line in there the second contract fee has increased also to $65, assuming you had a second contract in the same situation I guess.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> Yes it was revealed in the FAQs that the basic is now $170. I believe the second contract fee has increased also to $65, assuming you had a second contract in the same situation I guess.



Interesting, I thought that’s what I read.


----------



## capjak

_"will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."

My take is that it is worded this way as they will have to option to "opt out" of Abound, where the 1st bullet owners are opted in and can not opt out._


----------



## kozykritter

capjak said:


> _"will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."
> 
> My take is that it is worded this way as they will have to option to "opt out" of Abound, where the 1st bullet owners are opted in and can not opt out._


Could be that instead, yep. Without clarification from Vistana it's tough to know what they meant. Time will reveal all!


----------



## capjak

Looking for a lit of  how many club points you get for each different type of vistana ownership.  I've seen some posts where people were told the number but have not seen it posted on the site, which it probably will not be if it is like MVC destination points, each owner had a link to there specific ownership.






kozykritter said:


> Are you looking for a list of how many Club Points you get for each different type of Vistana ownership or are you looking for the number of Club Points it would take to book a Vistana resort?


----------



## kozykritter

capjak said:


> Looking for a lit of  how many club points you get for each different type of vistana ownership.  I've seen some posts where people were told the number but have not seen it posted on the site, which it probably will not be if it is like MVC destination points, each owner had a link to there specific ownership.


Dioxide created a thread specifically for people to report the points for their ownerships after they attend sales presentations and get the printouts. He puts the results in a spreadsheet. You can go there and view it.









						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## MICROZE

dsmrp said:


> I think the main major question that's left is at what cost will mandatory resorts will be allowed to participate in Abound ?  The 2nd point on FAQ on eligibility applies to both retro'ed units and mandatory units.
> 
> _Eligible VOIs:_
> 
> _Are those that are *enrolled* in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent._
> _VOIs that were *enrolled* in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level._
> 
> Note my underlined portion of the 2nd bullet is not as strong or demonstrative an affirmation as the 1st bullet on developer purchases.  I might be splitting hairs, but I think it gives Marriott an option to charge a one-time fee for mandatory, and possibly retro units too, to be able to participate in Abound.  The fees mentioned in the FAQ apply only to the new club member fee: borrowing, banking, transferring, housekeeping, cancelling, or the II exchange fee.   Nowhere does it state that there is no enrollment fee.   think we heard earlier that developer units would be 'automatically' enrolled.  I'm still not sure if retros or mandatories will get in free of charge.
> 
> I have a retro'd unit, and I hope there is minimal/no fee for retros.


Keep noticing the words *"Eligible VOI's"* followed by the word *"Enrolled"*.
How does one get "Enrolled"?

Auto: What is automatically enrolled? Developer-Purchases, Mandatory-Resales, Mandatory-Resale-Retros?
Manual: Is a fee required? If yes, which contracts?


----------



## MICROZE

capjak said:


> Looking for a lit of  how many club points you get for each different type of vistana ownership.  I've seen some posts where people were told the number but have not seen it posted on the site, which it probably will not be if it is like MVC destination points, each owner had a link to there specific ownership.


We received a printout [complete portfolio] during presentations stating which contracts were "Enrolled", "Enrolled-Eligible" + "Points-Accrued".
The Hard-Copies from both Marriott as well as Vistana match.


----------



## TexasChic

kozykritter said:


> Dioxide created a thread specifically for people to report the points for their ownerships after they attend sales presentations and get the printouts. He puts the results in a spreadsheet. You can go there and view it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
> 
> 
> I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Have any Harborside owners had their updates?   We are 4 star elite and assumed we would be presidential level based on everything we’ve read.   Well apparently not……Harborside is not being included in our Abound ownership totals therefore making us executive level. So we lose out on many of the benefits we had before.   Anyone else heard this same news?


----------



## VacationForever

TexasChic said:


> Have any Harborside owners had their updates?   We are 4 star elite and assumed we would be presidential level based on everything we’ve read.   Well apparently not……Harborside is not being included in our Abound ownership totals therefore making us executive level. So we lose out on many of the benefits we had before.   Anyone else heard this same news?


Since you are 4 star elite, you will automatically be made Presidential in the Abound system.  They won't drop it down to a lower level even if the Abound points fall below Presidential level.


----------



## iowaguy09

I’m happy I will be Select in Abound and so I will have the Platinum Bonvoy status going forward.  I’m anticipating it may be difficult next year for me to have enough stays to qualify for Platinum in 2024 without this new benefit.


----------



## timsi

TexasChic said:


> Have any Harborside owners had their updates?   We are 4 star elite and assumed we would be presidential level based on everything we’ve read.   Well apparently not……Harborside is not being included in our Abound ownership totals therefore making us executive level. So we lose out on many of the benefits we had before.   Anyone else heard this same news?


I suspect they will eventually take into account a certain number of points for the Harborside owners, even if they are not in VSN yet.  They can't be that ridiculous to leave them completely out. Although seeing how they have implemented this so far and the IT issues, I my expectations get lower and lower.


----------



## Venter

DavidnRobin said:


> Please stop with these awful/tangential analogies - they don’t help.
> There is no analogy that correctly addresses Timeshare issues - these situations are unique to Timeshares and nothing else.
> 
> Not a car, not a toaster, not an iPhone, not stock, not a vacation home…
> 
> What other product that so many people buy without due diligence (Research)? Amazing!
> 
> I fell for it - luckily found TUG in Dec 2005 and rescinded WKORVN OF for $74,000 (!!!). Whew!
> 
> Happy with what we have - and use it fully. Don’t need Abound or some special Elite level. Have I used it before? Yes, but those Starwood days are gone.
> 
> If MVC screws me - I will walk away (like I did with WSJ-VGV) as I bought our TSs with disposable income.
> 
> YMMV and probably does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please contact me first when you decide to 'walk away'.


----------



## kozykritter

TexasChic said:


> Have any Harborside owners had their updates?   We are 4 star elite and assumed we would be presidential level based on everything we’ve read.   Well apparently not……Harborside is not being included in our Abound ownership totals therefore making us executive level. So we lose out on many of the benefits we had before.   Anyone else heard this same news?


My combined Abound points leaves me 1,000 short of Executive but since I am three star I will be mapped into Executive regardless of that fact. You would be mapped in to Presidential.When they do this grandfathering, they capture the number of Abound points you have at that moment. If that number stays the same or increases, you keep your grandfathering or move up to the next level. If it decreases your grandfathering expires and then you will end up with whatever level your points qualify you for. Since Harborside is not being counted towards your current points amount, you won't be affected if Harborside is further delayed in participating in Abound or completely leaves Vistana.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> I have not had success booking with SOs. The dates available or locations available for me at 8 months have not worked out well. I have also lost SOs.


I have almost the opposite experience. I think I have booked my home time maybe once or twice in 12 years. I always book staroptions and we have 3 platinum weeks, so it is quite a bit of use.


----------



## TexasChic

kozykritter said:


> My combined Abound points leaves me 1,000 short of Executive but since I am three star I will be mapped into Executive regardless of that fact. You would be mapped in to Presidential.When they do this grandfathering, they capture the number of Abound points you have at that moment. If that number stays the same or increases, you keep your grandfathering or move up to the next level. If it decreases your grandfathering expires and then you will end up with whatever level your points qualify you for. Since Harborside is not being counted towards your current points amount, you won't be affected if Harborside is further delayed in participating in Abound or completely leaves Vistana.


that is great but not what the rep communicated to us in our update meeting Earlier this week.   He even included his manager in the latter part of the call When we pushed back.  I said I would expect a lot of Harborside owners will not be happy and the conclusion was “that is just the way it is”.   I did let him know I would be escalating through Abound management and he was supposed to send additional info that I have not yet received.


----------



## VacationForever

TexasChic said:


> that is great but not what the rep communicated to us in our update meeting Earlier this week.   He even included his manager in the latter part of the call When we pushed back.  I said I would expect a lot of Harborside owners will not be happy and the conclusion was “that is just the way it is”.   I did let him know I would be escalating through Abound management and he was supposed to send additional info that I have not yet received.


It is in the FAQ that 4 Star will map to Presidential or higher regardless of the number of Abound points it translates to.  If the Abound points reaches above 15K, then the 4 Star elite owner will get Chairman's Club. It will only go higher, but not lower.  Of course if you sell your ownership, then everything will be recomputed.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Venter said:


> Please contact me first when you decide to 'walk away'.



Walk away - meaning a realistic FMV. I could have sold our WSJ-VGV (certainly lots of contacts, but it was a FCFS), but circumstances made it easier just to give them away. Plus the person I gave them to, already did me a return favor. And I can always rent villas from them at cost.

Certainly not giving WKORV OFD or WKV away (WKV has paid itself off a few years ago). I would consider walking away from our WPORV EOY, but we like going to Kauai, like WPORV (albeit expensive) and end up with great villas (every time).

but - I will the other discussions alone. I made my point with as few words as possible - plus using paragraph breaks helps… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Yes, your math is correct. We just disagree on the path we'd take
> 
> Crystal Shores is great. We have a short stay there annually and love that view category. But note that June is Gold season, not Platinum. WKV Platinum could not get a week at Crystal Shores in most Platinum season weeks, except in the "Standard" view category which is the lowest out of the 7 (yes, seven) view categories they have for 2BR units.
> 
> That said, suppose I could covert WKV to 4050 points and get a gulf front week at Crystal shores in June (it's actually 4250 points, but let's ignore that). I could take the easy path and just elect points and book it - that's definitely easy and convenient. Or I could rent my week out for around $4300 (conservative estimate), use $2800 to rent the points I need, and keep $1500. Is the extra time you'd spend renting out your week not worth that extra money? I'd be ok with giving up $300 or maybe even $500, but $1500 is a lot to leave on the table for that extra convenience, no? That can cover a substantial portion of airfare for the next vacation...



I actually do not think $1500 is worth my time to rent something out. I did not buy timeshares to become a landlord. I do not care about renting anything out and converting to cash or renting Club Points to use. The mental energy and time is just too stressful to me personally. I know many vacation club owners feel the same way. 

The only time renting is something I would do is if I can’t use my week myself. However, once my Vistana week is enrolled, I will just use Abound. If for any reason Abound is not really free enrollment, I will look at other options that fit our vacation needs.

I think your suggestions are great for people who really need the extra money and it is hard for them to cover vacations. Or people who think of timeshares as a game and just enjoy playing around with this stuff. Some people are maximizers (this is a psychological state of mind) and they must optimize every possibility.

Not to split hairs, but a gulf front view in Marco Island or any water view at any resort in a season I would enjoy is a good thing to me. I think June/July in FL and Caribbean is the best time to visit. I grew up in FL and I have always enjoyed early summer over spring or winter. My point is just that you can get some good trades instead of doing anything very complicated.

OTOH, I just blew over 8000 points to add a week to our WKOVRN week at MOC in a 2BR OF over Easter break. I am sure there might be better ways to optimize that stay but I calculated the cost for a week using points and I was fine with it being a little over $4000 based on my average cost per point in MFs.


----------



## jabberwocky

JIMinNC said:


> Can you help me understand better where your angst is coming from? I understand there are some VSN changes around the margin - like banking periods - but that doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Do a lot of VSN owners frequently bank for two years? I have 18 months as Presidential in MVC and can't imagine regularly banking even 18 months, let alone 24.


For us the overall VSN program with the 8 month booking window, easy to understand points chart and the ability to bank for two years were the main factors for us choosing Vistana (well, Starwood originally) over MVC.

MVC is really designed for retired people who have plenty of flexibility in their schedules and can travel off-peak. Sometimes work demands mean we can’t line up the kids school schedule with my work travel. I’ve routinely banked points and it has been very useful over COVID. I didn’t lose a single SO during that period because of the ability to bank. It’s also difficult to know what our work schedules will be - so the 8 month booking window was preferred over the 12 or 13 months. Ask me in 8 years when the kids are done with school or 20 years when I retire and my opinion may reverse 

The other thing to keep in mind that with 8 months booking plus 24 months potential extension means that we had a 32 month window where we could use our SO. We now only have 20 (8 months + 12). Contrast this Abound, which if you have 13 months + 12 month extension gives you 25 months total for a booking window.

I’ll probably not opt-out of Abound. There are several things I like. I do see some ways to exploit the new system, so there are some potential benefits if my thinking is correct. We like the Vistana resorts but may try a few Marriott’s from time to time. I like the potential of having lifetime platinum (soon titanium) status with Marriott as it means i can dump my expensive Bonvoy CC and then focus 100% of my work travel on Hyatt to get globalist easier without having to reach the 75 nights in Marriott.

All I know is I won’t be buying anything further from VAC given the change.


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> Yes, that language is not as definite as the one for developer purchases. Actually on the original information page they posted on vistana.com which is still there on the website, it used the words resales "will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club points" which really implied that there could be another step before they could elect points and that could likely be an enrollment fee or something else. The FAQ language that you quoted is a little more direct but still less direct than for the developer purchases. It's one of those things that we might not know for sure until Abound launches and then you try to convert to Club points. I'd like to think they would have told owners up front about an enrollment fee rather than springing it on them later. Fingers crossed!



Technically every Vistana owner on this and the other Vistana threads who want nothing to do with Abound should hope that Marriott will charge enrollment fees. Then fewer people will deposit into Abound and VSN will more or less remain the same, other than banking.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Technically every Vistana owner on this and the other Vistana threads who want nothing to do with Abound should hope that Marriott will charge enrollment fees. Then fewer people will deposit into Abound and VSN will more or less remain the same, other than banking.


I hope they don’t charge enrollment fees and I would never opt out of abound. I just most likely won’t elect to convert at first as I will wait to see how inventory in the VSN looks although, I don’t think it’s going to be as plentiful as it was in the past.

There are a lot of benefits to the abound program in regards to those ancillary fees being removed and access to other resorts at 12mo using club points. But I would love to know the rationale behind removing 2 year banking.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> For us the overall VSN program with the 8 month booking window, easy to understand points chart and the ability to bank for two years were the main factors for us choosing Vistana (well, Starwood originally) over MVC.
> 
> MVC is really designed for retired people who have plenty of flexibility in their schedules and can travel off-peak. Sometimes work demands mean we can’t line up the kids school schedule with my work travel. I’ve routinely banked points and it has been very useful over COVID. I didn’t lose a single SO during that period because of the ability to bank. It’s also difficult to know what our work schedules will be - so the 8 month booking window was preferred over the 12 or 13 months. Ask me in 8 years when the kids are done with school or 20 years when I retire and my opinion may reverse
> 
> The other thing to keep in mind that with 8 months booking plus 24 months potential extension means that we had a 32 month window where we could use our SO. We now only have 20 (8 months + 12). Contrast this Abound, which if you have 13 months + 12 month extension gives you 25 months total for a booking window.
> 
> I’ll probably not opt-out if Abound. There are several things I like. I do see some ways to exploit the new system, so there are some potential benefits if my thinking is correct. We like the Vistana resorts but may try a few Marriott’s from time to time. I like the potential of having lifetime platinum (soon titanium) status with Marriott as it means i can dump my expensive Bonvoy CC and then focus 100% of my work travel on Hyatt to get globalist easier without having to reach the 75 nights in Marriott.
> 
> All I know is I won’t be buying anything further from VAC given the change.


Marriott must have data showing the average of points that expire every year for the owners that can  bank for one year vs the owners that can bank for 1.5 years and those that can bank for 2. I would expect the average loss is a lot higher when the interval is shorter. Some say they never use the feature but if you do have to let points expire, due to a family or health issue, the loss can be significant and make a bad situation feel even worse. 
And of course, somebody's loss is Marriott's gain since the empty units can be rented. Reducing the banking period from 2 years to 1.5 or to 1 is a hidden fee and it can hit you when you least need it.


----------



## MICROZE

-


----------



## Grandma2016

Jayco29D said:


> So this sounds like a big disadvantage to using SOs vs converting to Club Points. With Club Points, you can book at 12 months vs 8 months with SOs. In 2025, you only get 12 months to use banked SOs unless you are higher level with Abound. So another big disadvantage to VSN/SOs. While VSN/SOs will still exist, it will be a lot less attractive to future resale buyers.
> 
> The good news is all mandatory resale owners will be enrolled for free if purchased prior to 8/9. This is a big advantage since it costs $20K-$40K to requalify a week. Maybe they are giving free enrollment to offset the loss of the 2 year banking window.


I think you are correct.  I was also thinking about the SO 8 month booking window vs 12 month with club points.  I have 57k club points with my vistana ownership.  Im thinking since im chairman at marriot i could move my SO to mvc points and book at 12 months any day of week or number of nights depending on inventory at abbound.  Am i correct in my thoughts?  I own everything in maui and have to normally wait to 8 month to use SO to get OF.  If these options are sitting in club points i could snag of units????


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> I hope they don’t charge enrollment fees and I would never opt out of abound. I just most likely won’t elect to convert at first as I will wait to see how inventory in the VSN looks although, I don’t think it’s going to be as plentiful as it was in the past.
> 
> There are a lot of benefits to the abound program in regards to those ancillary fees being removed and access to other resorts at 12mo using club points. But I would love to know the rationale behind removing 2 year banking.


I have a guess about that. As I mentioned before, MVW SVP John Ruble said their goal in syncing up the benefits between the two programs was to adopt the more generous version and apply it to both programs as much as possible. I think the reason that they took MVC's existing banking policy and applied it to the VSN right now is technology based. Right now they already have the existing IT and programming in place to support the MVC banking policies. Given all of the IT troubles they've had in this affiliation and transition to Abound, they may have decided that banking was one area that they could wait on until some point further down the line so they could focus their IT attention on bigger areas that would impact us owners even more....like reliable websites! It's very possible by the time the new banking policy is due to come into effect in 2025 they might have decided to take the more generous VSN banking policy and apply it to MVC. It might also be the reason they're waiting two years to implement it. Just a theory but it would make all the pieces fit together.. just like any other conspiracy theory


----------



## Grandma2016

They are so messy in part because they do not want the retail owners to have the same benefits. This serves them very well of course, it lowers the resale value and they can get that inventory for almost nothing and resale it. They also wanted to


Theoretically the resort owners should have priority over any other category. In practice, we do not know how many units will be released at midnight for the resort owners and how many will be saved for Abound. ZERO transparency.
[/QUOTE]
An owner needs to watch the Fri Sat Sun check in exactly 12 months out otherwise ckub points can grab inventory on a Tuesday at 12 months following.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> I have a guess about that. As I mentioned before, MVW SVP John Ruble said their goal in syncing up the benefits between the two programs was to adopt the more generous version and apply it to both programs as much as possible. I think the reason that they took MVC's existing banking policy and applied it to the VSN right now is technology based. Right now they already have the existing IT and programming in place to support the MVC banking policies. Given all of the IT troubles they've had in this affiliation and transition to Abound, they may have decided that banking was one area that they could wait on until some point further down the line so they could focus their attention on bigger areas that would impact us owners even more. It's very possible by the time the new banking policy is due to come into effect in 2025 they might have decided to take the more generous VSN banking policy and apply it to MVC. Just a theory but it would make all the pieces fit together.. just like any other conspiracy theory


It’s funny, I remember listening to one of their qtrly meetings where they stated that what they learned from the vistana side of the business was that “they” (Vistana) had superior IT….. so what do they do next? Continue on with Marriotts IT, how hilarious.


----------



## CPNY

Another benefit that isn’t being talked about much is the loss of early check in / late check out for elite owners.


----------



## Negma

capjak said:


> Looking for a lit of  how many club points you get for each different type of vistana ownership.  I've seen some posts where people were told the number but have not seen it posted on the site, which it probably will not be if it is like MVC destination points, each owner had a link to there specific ownership.


This?


----------



## jabberwocky

Negma said:


> This?


That chart is for how much it costs to book in Abound. The number you receive for your week will differ and in many cases is lower than what it costs to book back into the same resort you own.


----------



## CPNY

Negma said:


> This?


That’s a good guide. One thing to remember is skim. We really don’t know much in terms of what each unit will actually be worth until it’s rolled out. I would assume they would apply skim to vistana owners the same way they do to enrolled Marriott weeks.

let’s not forget marriotts point chart is no where near as easy to follow as the star options chart. Because of dynamic pricing it will be interesting to see how they assign points. Will they be based on the week that’s on your deed or blended amount based on your season?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I hope they don’t charge enrollment fees and I would never opt out of abound. I just most likely won’t elect to convert at first as I will wait to see how inventory in the VSN looks although, I don’t think it’s going to be as plentiful as it was in the past.
> 
> There are a lot of benefits to the abound program in regards to those ancillary fees being removed and access to other resorts at 12mo using club points. But I would love to know the rationale behind removing 2 year banking.



That is good because there are a lot of benefits to Abound. But people are complaining about all the good Vistana inventory moving to Abound. If I were some of the Vistana owners who have been complaining about this issue, then I would hope for a fee to reduce demand for Abound. OTOH, I like Abound so I will hope for no fee.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I actually do not think $1500 is worth my time to rent something out. I did not buy timeshares to become a landlord. I do not care about renting anything out and converting to cash or renting Club Points to use. The mental energy and time is just too stressful to me personally. I know many vacation club owners feel the same way.
> 
> The only time renting is something I would do is if I can’t use my week myself. However, once my Vistana week is enrolled, I will just use Abound. If for any reason Abound is not really free enrollment, I will look at other options that fit our vacation needs.
> 
> I think your suggestions are great for people who really need the extra money and it is hard for them to cover vacations. Or people who think of timeshares as a game and just enjoy playing around with this stuff. Some people are maximizers (this is a psychological state of mind) and they must optimize every possibility.
> 
> Not to split hairs, but a gulf front view in Marco Island or any water view at any resort in a season I would enjoy is a good thing to me. I think June/July in FL and Caribbean is the best time to visit. I grew up in FL and I have always enjoyed early summer over spring or winter. My point is just that you can get some good trades instead of doing anything very complicated.
> 
> OTOH, I just blew over 8000 points to add a week to our WKOVRN week at MOC in a 2BR OF over Easter break. I am sure there might be better ways to optimize that stay but I calculated the cost for a week using points and I was fine with it being a little over $4000 based on my average cost per point in MFs.




I suspect a lot of people feel like you. 

For me, between our Vistana and MVC timeshares, we have invested quite a bit and also have significant annual expenses via MFs. The $1500 savings was an example of possible savings on usage for just one VOI (and offsets much of the MFs for that week). Renting can be a hassle but after doing it a few times it becomes easier, and the time spent on each rental goes down with the learning curve. One can copy listings from last year, reuse contracts from past rentals and it pretty much becomes a non-event.

Of the options you give, I guess I'm in the "maximizer" category (which also explains why I have 20+ credit cards!)

I actually live in Florida and can't stand the summers here. There is a reason why the Platinum seasons at Crystal Shores and Ocean Pointe (and Caribbean) end by around week #17. We do go to Bahamas and USVI in the summers, but mostly because of school holidays. My goal is to spend our summers in retirement elsewhere!


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> That’s a good guide. One thing to remember is skim. We really don’t know much in terms of what each unit will actually be worth until it’s rolled out. I would assume they would apply skim to vistana owners the same way they do to enrolled Marriott weeks.
> 
> let’s not forget marriotts point chart is no where near as easy to follow as the star options chart. Because of dynamic pricing it will be interesting to see how they assign points. Will they be based on the week that’s on your deed or blended amount based on your season?


People should have in mind that the real skim is probably higher than 7% (number often mentioned on social media) since more units are generally empty in low season than in high season  so the cost for the average *booked* unit should be higher than the average number of points for all the weeks of the calendar. I'd be curious to see  their internal data (that will never happen). I would not be surprised if in practice the skim experienced by the average owner  is closer to  10% or 15%.


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> I have a guess about that. As I mentioned before, MVW SVP John Ruble said their goal in syncing up the benefits between the two programs was to adopt the more generous version and apply it to both programs as much as possible. I think the reason that they took MVC's existing banking policy and applied it to the VSN right now is technology based. Right now they already have the existing IT and programming in place to support the MVC banking policies. Given all of the IT troubles they've had in this affiliation and transition to Abound, they may have decided that banking was one area that they could wait on until some point further down the line so they could focus their IT attention on bigger areas that would impact us owners even more....like reliable websites! It's very possible by the time the new banking policy is due to come into effect in 2025 they might have decided to take the more generous VSN banking policy and apply it to MVC. It might also be the reason they're waiting two years to implement it. Just a theory but it would make all the pieces fit together.. just like any other conspiracy theory



Wouldn’t it be less IT work to just keep VSN intact? Wouldn’t they have had to re-program VSN with the Marriott banking rules? So why would they program it one way, just to re-program it another way in the future?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> That is good because there are a lot of benefits to Abound. But people are complaining about all the good Vistana inventory moving to Abound. If I were some of the Vistana owners who have been complaining about this issue, then I would hope for a fee to reduce demand for Abound. OTOH, I like Abound so I will hope for no fee.


I think a lot of the concern has to do with the lack of trust in Marriott. We really have no idea how inventory is controlled. They can do what they want with it behind the scenes and no one will ever know.

so if I give up points for my WKV unit, will they deposit the week that’s on my deed or pick any prime week they want?


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I suspect a lot of people feel like you.
> 
> For me, between our Vistana and MVC timeshares, we have invested quite a bit and also have significant annual expenses via MFs. The $1500 savings was an example of possible savings on usage for just one VOI (and offsets much of the MFs for that week). Renting can be a hassle but after doing it a few times it becomes easier, and the time spent on each rental goes down with the learning curve. One can copy listings from last year, reuse contracts from past rentals and it pretty much becomes a non-event.
> 
> Of the options you give, I guess I'm in the "maximizer" category (which also explains why I have 20+ credit cards!)
> 
> I actually live in Florida and can't stand the summers here. There is a reason why the Platinum seasons at Crystal Shores and Ocean Pointe (and Caribbean) end by around week #17. We do go to Bahamas and USVI in the summers, but mostly because of school holidays. My goal is to spend our summers in retirement elsewhere!



Good luck finding a location with mild weather year round. We live in CA and it is scorching hot now when it used to be so mild that people did not even have AC. There was an article this week in a major media publication that has a chart of the US and the percentage of homes with AC. CA was very low.


----------



## alexadeparis

Racing2007 said:


> Did I read that correctly that Owners at their home resort will maintain the booking advantage over Abound as they will have the 12 month booking window opened for them at midnight Friday, Sat, Sun, and Abound will only be ae to book starting Tuesday after 12 months out?


And reading closely it appears the same when looking to book MVC. MVC owners book Friday and then we book Tuesday. So IF there is anything leftover 12 months minus 4 days, we VSNrs can book it. So NOT ideal for trying to get PEAK times, imho.


----------



## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> And reading closely it appears the same when looking to book MVC. MVC owners book Friday and then we book Tuesday. So IF there is anything leftover 12 months minus 4 days, we VSNrs can book it. So NOT ideal for trying to get PEAK times, imho.


The whole Friday and Tuesday thing is so odd. Most vistana owners won’t be messing with this abound stuff being this difficult. You will have a lot of people converting thinking they can get into Aruba. It’s probably easier to get into Aruba via interval than Abound.


----------



## dsmrp

Does it sound with the new Abound club fee, that we'll be able to borrow Abound pts from the succeeding use year without having to pay MF for that year?  It does sound like we'll be able to do it via the website,
instead of having to call CS.  HGVC allows borrowing without paying MF


----------



## TravelTime

alexadeparis said:


> And reading closely it appears the same when looking to book MVC. MVC owners book Friday and then we book Tuesday. So IF there is anything leftover 12 months minus 4 days, we VSNrs can book it. So NOT ideal for trying to get PEAK times, imho.



I have always booked my Vistana home resort exactly 12 months from the date of arrival, not on a Tuesday. I do not understand what you mean about Tuesdays with Vistana.


----------



## timsi

alexadeparis said:


> And reading closely it appears the same when looking to book MVC. MVC owners book Friday and then we book Tuesday. So IF there is anything leftover 12 months minus 4 days, we VSNrs can book it. So NOT ideal for trying to get PEAK times, imho.


If you read resort documents, as soon the window opens for the resort owners,  Vistana can block any number of units in order to bulk deposit to an "external" exchange. So theoretically speaking (and because Marriott can interpret the rules the way they want), a split second after midnight they can put aside what they want. I would be curious to find out how  "external" is Abound from a legal standpoint   when documents posted here on TUG were signed by the same person representing  both Abound and Vistana. 
The other weak point for Abound may be that the same documents mention that the bulk deposits can be done "from time to time" which to me does not sound like weekly or daily but I assume Marriott will also interpret this to their favor.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> The whole Friday and Tuesday thing is so odd. Most vistana owners won’t be messing with this abound stuff being this difficult. You will have a lot of people converting thinking they can get into Aruba. It’s probably easier to get into Aruba via interval than Abound.



Then that is a good thing for the VSN. If Vistana owners do not deposit their week into Abound because they find it too complicated, then there will be more inventory remaining in the VSN. Remember a Vistana owner needs to elect Club Points for their week to move into Abound.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Good luck finding a location with mild weather year round. We live in CA and it is scorching hot now when it used to be so mild that people did not even have AC. There was an article this week in a major media publication that has a chart of the US and the percentage of homes with AC. CA was very low.


San Diego is mild all year around.


----------



## GregT

To my Starwood Friends,

This may have been highlighted before but if not I think we really should take a moment and think about it. For those SVN owners who are willing to utilize DC points, the probability of a reservation that was “previously difficult to obtain” is now much higher (in a Marriott)

Marriott has done a great job in the last 10 years in building a robust inventory for its properties, such that if you are on your game, as Tuggers tend to be, we will get the inventory when it is released.

One of the challenges with star options is you never really know what’s going to be there at eight months out, however I can guarantee you there’s something in Marriott that is there 12 and 13 months out.

If you have an atomic clock, you can reserve it. Prime ski week, prime Maui week, prime Saint Thomas week, prime Aruba week, it is there for you and if you plan your reservation strategy you will secure your reservation.

This is different from using star options, when I’m not sure what really will be there eight months out and I have booked throwaway days just to make sure I get the days I really want. It’s inefficient but effective.

I love this thread, but it is like a fast flowing river, I was off-line for a long flight and six pages were added!

I hope my comment makes sense.

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever

dsmrp said:


> Does it sound with the new Abound club fee, that we'll be able to borrow Abound pts from the succeeding use year without having to pay MF for that year?  It does sound like we'll be able to do it via the website,
> instead of having to call CS.  HGVC allows borrowing without paying MF


Yes, borrowing is all done online.  MF does not need to be paid in order to borrow.


----------



## CPNY

GregT said:


> To my Starwood Friends,
> 
> This may have been highlighted before but if not I think we really should take a moment and think about it. For those SVN owners who are willing to utilize DC points, the probability of a reservation that was “previously difficult to obtain” is now much higher (in a Marriott)
> 
> Marriott has done a great job in the last 10 years in building a robust inventory for its properties, such that if you are on your game, as Tuggers tend to be, we will get the inventory when it is released.
> 
> One of the challenges with star options is you never really know what’s going to be there at eight months out, however I can guarantee you there’s something in Marriott that is there 12 and 13 months out.
> 
> If you have an atomic clock, you can reserve it. Prime ski week, prime Maui week, prime Saint Thomas week, prime Aruba week, it is there for you and if you plan your reservation strategy you will secure your reservation.
> 
> This is different from using star options, when I’m not sure what really will be there eight months out and I have booked throwaway days just to make sure I get the days I really want. It’s inefficient but effective.
> 
> I love this thread, but it is like a fast flowing river, I was off-line for a long flight and six pages were added!
> 
> I hope my comment makes sense.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Thank you for the insight. Can I ask, what is your experience with inventory at 8, 6, 4, or even 2 months out in the DC Exchange? Some of us enjoy the 8 month game because we can’t nail down plans 12 months in advance. I’ve had a lot of luck pre covid with star option reservations a few months before. Then there was the 61 day cancellations that also were solid. You knew people had to cancel 61 days before to not have restricted options, so inventory would pop up at that time making last minute travel perfect. Do you find anything similar with club points at a few months out? My fear is that I always have to book at 12 months.


----------



## timsi

GregT said:


> To my Starwood Friends,
> 
> This may have been highlighted before but if not I think we really should take a moment and think about it. For those SVN owners who are willing to utilize DC points, the probability of a reservation that was “previously difficult to obtain” is now much higher (in a Marriott)
> 
> Marriott has done a great job in the last 10 years in building a robust inventory for its properties, such that if you are on your game, as Tuggers tend to be, we will get the inventory when it is released.
> 
> One of the challenges with star options is you never really know what’s going to be there at eight months out, however I can guarantee you there’s something in Marriott that is there 12 and 13 months out.
> 
> If you have an atomic clock, you can reserve it. Prime ski week, prime Maui week, prime Saint Thomas week, prime Aruba week, it is there for you and if you plan your reservation strategy you will secure your reservation.
> 
> This is different from using star options, when I’m not sure what really will be there eight months out and I have booked throwaway days just to make sure I get the days I really want. It’s inefficient but effective.
> 
> I love this thread, but it is like a fast flowing river, I was off-line for a long flight and six pages were added!
> 
> I hope my comment makes sense.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I appreciate your thoughts but I think what you are saying is exactly what the Vistana owners fear: that Abound will have better inventory and people will  will now have to book there at a much higher cost for many (vs VSN). Inventory in VSN is what it is (or was what it was) and people knew what to expect. I do not agree with you concerning the availability in VSN, with the exception of WSJ I could always book everything I wanted at 8 months.


----------



## GregT

Good comments Chris and Timsi, (edit: sorry thought it was dioxide at first)

I have also had good luck booking 8 months out at HRA, WPORV and WKORV (with some flexibility) but my attempts at VSN ski weeks were much more challenging. I may not have tested broadly enough.

Chris, I do see DC availability in those interim periods, it’s may not exactly be the dates I’m looking for, but I can usually string something together pretty much anywhere if I keep checking. Ski weeks are always tough for me if not booking at release, in all systems.

For me, this may evolve to where I start to measure how critical it is for me to book 12/13 months out, in which case I default to Marriott and accept the points premium.

I am also willing to book a reservation opportunistically at release and park the points there while the reservation is available.   It’s not uncommon for me to book a reservation with points, and then cancel later if I realize the trip isn’t possible.

Best,

Greg


----------



## vacationtime1

JIMinNC said:


> Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) stock has been a good investment for me. I bought it three years ago at $85, now it's at $150. Each 100 shares also gets you $232/year in dividends. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a lot more when it dropped to $35 in the Covid-panic in spring 2020. That was dumb!
> 
> I decided when I first bought the stock that since I have the so called "investment" in vacations with MVC, I should also have a real investment as a shareholder. I love to own shares in companies I also like to do business with. I also bought a good bit of Apple stock back in 2008 during the crash, since I love their products, and I really love my ROI there!
> 
> But just because I own stock in VAC, I don't think that causes me to be any less objective about what they do good and what they do bad. I can praise their resorts and points product - as I often do here on TUG - but at the same time, I can be mystified as both an owner and a shareholder how they just can't seem to get the software/IT thing right.
> 
> In the end, as both an MVC owner and as a VAC shareholder, I hope the angst and fear that I hear from VSN owners on this board about the changes is replaced in a year or two with a recognition that Abound is a good product after all. It doesn't meet every need for every owner and there are always things that could be better, but all-in-all I think most MVC owners are happy with the overall program, even though we had concerns 12 years ago, too. I want to think that in a few years, VSN owners will also be largely happy. After all, you still have 95% of the benefits of the VSN program you all seem to love, but now you have the additional options in Abound also. You don't have to use it because you are not going to have to pay to play, but it's there if you ever need another option.


I also bought VAC.  Which unlike its products, may go up in value.


----------



## timsi

vacationtime1 said:


> I also bought VAC.  Which unlike its products, may go up in value.


As a shareholder, are you not concerned when Abound is going to give so many freebies to the Vistana owner? 

Apparently, according to one of the examples on the FAQ, an owner with 3 VOIs can save 342 dollars in a year!

Example: 3 VOIs OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$235-0-Club Dues for Executive benefit level Owners-0-$270*Convert 1st VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points$164-0-Pay third-party guest fee of 2nd VOI lock-off$59-0-Internal Exchange II of 2nd VOI (other part of lock-off)$154-0-Occupy 3rd Interest-0--0-Total$612$270 (Savings $342)
* 2023 Club Dues for the Executive/Presidential benefit levels


----------



## JIMinNC

Racing2007 said:


> Did I read that correctly that Owners at their home resort will maintain the booking advantage over Abound as they will have the 12 month booking window opened for them at midnight Friday, Sat, Sun, and Abound will only be ae to book starting Tuesday after 12 months out?





alexadeparis said:


> And reading closely it appears the same when looking to book MVC. MVC owners book Friday and then we book Tuesday. So IF there is anything leftover 12 months minus 4 days, we VSNrs can book it. So NOT ideal for trying to get PEAK times, imho.



Is the phrase that both of you are questioning the following one:

*Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.*
If so, I think you may be misinterpreting what it means. They are not talking about when *owners* can book, but which inventory gets released on which days.

In the MVC Destination Club, which is what Abound is modeled after, different inventory gets released on different days of the week for a weeks worth of days, 12 months out. For example, traditional deeded weeks inventory for a full seven days (but really depends on which check-in days each resort offers for the deeded weeks, so may be Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun checkins for that week or whatever that resort sold) generally gets loaded for booking on each Thursday, 12 months in advance. Then the next day, on each Friday, Destination Points inventory gets loaded for booking.

The way I read the statement above is, this is how Abound points booking will work:

Abound inventory for MVC resorts will be loaded on Fridays. At that point, all Abound members - both those from the MVC legacy side who elected their ownership for Abound points and those from the VSN legacy side who elected their ownership for Abound points - will be able to book reservations at these MVC resorts. That's identical to the process today.
Then, on the following Tuesday, any VSN inventory that has been elected into Abound will become available for all Abound elected members to book.
So, the Friday/Tuesday divide is for INVENTORY not WHO can book. We all will be able to book new MVC resort inventory on Fridays (just like today in MVC) and we all will be able to book any available VSN inventory on the next Tuesday.


----------



## kozykritter

TravelTime said:


> Wouldn’t it be less IT work to just keep VSN intact? Wouldn’t they have had to re-program VSN with the Marriott banking rules? So why would they program it one way, just to re-program it another way in the future?


Sure it'd be less work if they never did anything to bring the systems together and just let everything go on as it is completely separate. But that's not what's happening here. MVC has started finally started the process of integrating its acquisition of Vistana like any company does after it buys something. That involves things like consolidating administration and IT.


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> As a shareholder, are you not concerned when Abound is going to give so many freebies to the Vistana owner?
> 
> Apparently, according to one of the examples on the FAQ, an owner with 3 VOIs can save 342 dollars in a year!
> 
> Example: 3 VOIs OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$235-0-Club Dues for Executive benefit level Owners-0-$270*Convert 1st VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points$164-0-Pay third-party guest fee of 2nd VOI lock-off$59-0-Internal Exchange II of 2nd VOI (other part of lock-off)$154-0-Occupy 3rd Interest-0--0-Total$612$270 (Savings $342)
> * 2023 Club Dues for the Executive/Presidential benefit levels



That's the same approach they have always used for MVC owners over the last 12 years. Eliminate the nickel and dime fees and replace it with one flat fee. It seems to be working well with the stock price, so why not continue it? That's how I look at it as an owner and a shareholder.


----------



## vacationtime1

My biggest concern about this integration isn't about banking periods or inventory games.  It's about the reduced functionality of the reservation system.

In the good old days, I could play with the Vistana website in advance of the eight month reservation date to see what would be available for how many days using StarOptions -- so I could make the optimal reservation at 9:00:01pm Pacific time exactly eight months in advance.  Every indication from the work-in-progress that Marriott is calling a website, this will no longer be possible.

Marriott did not offer this functionality to DC members years ago when we owned DC points; if you didn't have the points to reserve it, you couldn't see it -- making renting points for a specific reservation risky.

This is a place where Marriott is giving us the worse of the two systems rather than the better of them.  And this isn't even a profit center for them.


----------



## jabberwocky

JIMinNC said:


> That's the same approach they have always used for MVC owners over the last 12 years. Eliminate the nickel and dime fees and replace it with one flat fee. It seems to be working well with the stock price, so why not continue it? That's how I look at it as an owner and a shareholder.


I really like VAC as an investment (I own shares and have sold put options). They have their customer base which is highly profitable and not as sensitive to price. The model works for them, but not really for me as a consumer. 

But I’m value-driven (I.e., cheap) - so I generally don’t want to invest in a company that would want me as a customer.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> That's the same approach they have always used for MVC owners over the last 12 years. Eliminate the nickel and dime fees and replace it with one flat fee. It seems to be working well with the stock price, so why not continue it? That's how I look at it as an owner and a shareholder.


We all know this is not about helping owners to save money as they make it sound. The skim, the average points that will go to waste because of the reduced banking and other benefits lost are not quantified and mentioned but they know exactly how much they are worth.


----------



## JIMinNC

jabberwocky said:


> I really like VAC as an investment (I own shares and have sold put options). They have their customer base which is highly profitable and not as sensitive to price. The model works for them, but not really for me as a consumer.
> 
> But I’m value-driven (I.e., cheap) - so I generally don’t want to invest in a company that would want me as a customer.



Made me laugh...I guess I'm perfect for VAC. I'm less sensitive to price (within limits), and more focused on convenience and flexibility.


----------



## timsi

Is there any mention about treating Vistana and Marriott as one in terms of Interval priority?


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> We all know this is not about helping owners to save money as they make it sound. The skim, the average points that will go to waste because of the reduced banking and other benefits lost are not quantified and mentioned but they know exactly how much they are worth.



Of course. Like everything in business, it's a balancing act. Do everything you can to boost revenue, increase sales, lower costs so as to boost earnings per share for shareholders - but do it in a way that keeps as many customers and prospective customers as happy as possible, while not alienating too much of your customer base. Any change is likely to disappoint some people. You just try your best to keep that to a minimum.

I spent 20+ years working in an industry that is often almost as despised as timeshare companies - a big bank. Much of that time was in product management where we often debated fee increases, minimum balance requirement increases, etc. We never went into it saying, "How we can we increase fees and screw our customers?" Our goal was to increase revenue/profits, yes, but we always tried to model how much customer attrition we might have and the impact on customer goodwill, etc.  It was always a healthy debate, and we tried to balance our financial needs with minimizing customer disruption.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> Of course. Like everything in business, it's a balancing act. Do everything you can to boost revenue, increase sales, lower costs so as to boost earnings per share for shareholders - but do it in a way that keeps as many customers and prospective customers as happy as possible, while not alienating too much of your customer base. Any change is likely to disappoint some people. You just try your best to keep that to a minimum.
> 
> I spent 20+ years working in an industry that is often almost as despised as timeshare companies - a big bank. Much of that time was in product management where we often debated fee increases, minimum balance requirement increases, etc. We never went into it saying, "How we can we increase fees and screw our customers?" Our goal was to increase revenue/profits, yes, but we always tried to model how much customer attrition we might have and the impact on customer goodwill, etc.  It was always a healthy debate, and we tried to balance our financial needs with minimizing customer disruption.


We are in full agreement,  this is without a doubt Marriott's goal too. I just find it funny that many claim  Marriott is doing a favor to the Vistana owners  and that they will save fees.


----------



## robertk2012

I will save a large amount in fees and I appreciate it.  



timsi said:


> We are in full agreement,  this is without a doubt Marriott's goal too. I just find it funny that many claim  Marriott is doing a favor to the Vistana owners  and that they will save fees.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Made me laugh...I guess I'm perfect for VAC. I'm less sensitive to price (within limits), and more focused on convenience and flexibility.


I was here yelling and calling everyone to buy VAC when it was $38 in 2020. I purchased some and sold some within few weeks doubled the price. I still own some today. VAC is still a good investment today, but I like few others better today.









						Furloughs Announced [Marriott Int'l hotel company] - WSJ
					

Who has money to buy stock? My portfolio is down 33%.  I don’t have any spare cash.  I thought I was doing badly, down 22% now. Maybe not so badly after all?




					tugbbs.com


----------



## jabberwocky

Hmmmm…might want to get back on topic. I think we’re getting close to having some posts being sent to chit chat purgatory.


----------



## JIMinNC

The Abound discussions over on the Marriott board are now very limited compared to the energetic discussions here, so even though I don't own in VSN, I've been reading and offering my thoughts here to try to help all of you guys understand the program better and, hopefully, help you all feel better about what the new program might offer you.

I have a question for you all now.

Since there is less change for us MVC folks, one of the main questions we have is, "How much VSN inventory will become available in Abound?" Those of you who do elect your VSN weeks for ClubPoints will immediately have access to the extensive inventory already in the MVC DC program that is transitioning to Abound, but us MVC folks will be dependent on what VSN folks choose to convert to Abound plus whatever inventory Marriott controls through the various Trusts. How many VSN owners choose to play in Abound will obviously be a big TBD and will likely change as time goes on, so we will just have to wait and see on that. What I'm trying to figure out, is what inventory does Marriott now have control over that might find its way into the MVC Exchange or Trusts?

We know Marriott just deeded a bunch of Sheraton intervals plus Westin Desert Willow, Mission Hills, and Princeville to the MVC Trust, so we know that inventory will be available for booking in Abound. But are there other Marriott-controlled sources that they might deposit to the Exchange? Here are a couple I could think of:

We have anecdotal info that the Westin Flex trust is sold out and the Sheraton Flex trust is close, so that probably won't be a source of inventory.
What about Aventuras? That *can't* go into the Trust, but is there still unsold Aventuras inventory in Mexico - at Cabo or Cancun? If so, might Marriott put some of that into the Exchange until it's sold?
Anything else I'm missing? Unsold VOIs at Westin Nanea, maybe?
Thanks for any ideas you guys might have. I love the Westin Los Cabos and am hopeful that there will be inventory there by at least 2024.


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> That chart is for how much it costs to book in Abound. The number you receive for your week will differ and in many cases is lower than what it costs to book back into the same resort you own.


I read somewhere that Destination Points are the average of a given season plus a 7% skim. I did a spreadsheet to check Lagunamar and I came out with 4850 for Platinum, but have read 4950 is what will be given.


----------



## pchung6

remowidget said:


> I read somewhere that Destination Points are the average of a given season plus a 7% skim. I did a spreadsheet to check Lagunamar and I came out with 4850 for Platinum, but have read 4950 is what will be given.


With 7% skim if I convert to Abound, I will not get the value I originally purchased for Staroptions. What I can do with 2800 points for my SVV? Not even Island View studio at Ko Olina. I can rent my Maui OF for top dollars, what I can get with 8200 points is not fair at all. I will stay with Vistana as long as I can.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Good luck finding a location with mild weather year round. We live in CA and it is scorching hot now when it used to be so mild that people did not even have AC. There was an article this week in a major media publication that has a chart of the US and the percentage of homes with AC. CA was very low.



FL is fantastic weather November to April. The population in our area doubles with snowbirds and cars with license plates from NY, MA and Canada. But they mostly leave by April, and June to September is pretty intolerable weather for me. 

We own several Newport Coast Villas Platinum weeks and would love spending a few summer weeks there when we retire. Not sure where you are in CA that it's scorching now, but that Orange County summer weather still looks perfect over the next two weeks...


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> FL is fantastic weather November to April. The population in our area doubles with snowbirds and cars with license plates from NY, MA and Canada. But they mostly leave by April, and June to September is pretty intolerable weather for me.
> 
> We own several Newport Coast Villas Platinum weeks and would love spending a few summer weeks there when we retire. Not sure where you are in CA that it's scorching now, but that Orange County summer weather still looks perfect over the next two weeks...
> 
> View attachment 63498



I was going to add if you are on the coast i.e. very close to the ocean, then the weather is fine. Get a few miles inland and things change. This is similar to anywhere. But this is chit chat and should not be discussed.


----------



## DanCali

GregT said:


> If you have an atomic clock, you can reserve it. Prime ski week, prime Maui week, prime Saint Thomas week, prime Aruba week, it is there for you and if you plan your reservation strategy you will secure your reservation.



I agree with much of what you say Greg, but there are a handful of Abound locations that may as well not be there because they are impossible to book. For example, the Ritz and Tahoe and Aspen come to mind, and I'm not just talking about prime Ski or Summer weeks.



GregT said:


> This is different from using star options, when I’m not sure what really will be there eight months out and I have booked throwaway days just to make sure I get the days I really want. It’s inefficient but effective.



Vistana did have a feature that would tell you exactly what was there at 8 months out. It was quite reliable, and I was able to book WSJ multiple times knowing what I needed was likely there. But, under Marriott leadership, they intentionally eliminated it. I won't speculate as to their reasons....


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I agree with much of what you say Greg, but there are a handful of Abound locations that may as well not be there because they are impossible to book. For example, the Ritz and Tahoe and Aspen come to mind, and I'm not just talking about prime Ski or Summer weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana did have a feature that would tell you exactly what was there at 8 months out. It was quite reliable, and I was able to book WSJ multiple times knowing what I needed was likely there. But, under Marriott leadership, they intentionally eliminated it. I won't speculate as to their reasons....



I booked an 8 night stay at the Ritz Tahoe during Spring Break a few years back. It is hard to book there but I have stayed there twice. I just came back from 15 nights at the Ritz St Thomas (my second stay there, last one was 8N). Other than Aspen, the Ritz Carltons are not super hard to book if you book right at 13 months or you keep checking. I suspect with all the new Vistana owners electing Club Points, it is going to get harder for the MVC points owners to book the best MVC resorts and locations. The competition is increasing for MVC resorts.


----------



## Negma

CPNY said:


> That’s a good guide. One thing to remember is skim. We really don’t know much in terms of what each unit will actually be worth until it’s rolled out. I would assume they would apply skim to vistana owners the same way they do to enrolled Marriott weeks.
> 
> let’s not forget marriotts point chart is no where near as easy to follow as the star options chart. Because of dynamic pricing it will be interesting to see how they assign points. Will they be based on the week that’s on your deed or blended amount based on your season?


If the numbers we were given in May hold up, I would not use my SO to convert to points to reserve Westin properties. Because of the skim. You lose value. We also are one of those owners that do not rent out our properties other than to family and some close friends   

We will probably take a small percentage and convert to points because we can travel off season and mid week to places we have not gone to. There are many properties in CA that would be a nice getaway. And if you search 60 days out it can be a good deal at 30% off points. So we will experiment. But time will tell how many properties are actually available. I have no history on the Marriot side so we will see how it plays out. 
Thank you to everyone that is posting their insights.


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> I read somewhere that Destination Points are the average of a given season plus a 7% skim. I did a spreadsheet to check Lagunamar and I came out with 4850 for Platinum, but have read 4950 is what will be given.




Glad you tried my method 

Just tried that for Lagunamar Platinum too. That's a crazy Platinum season... but I got the same as you (I actually got 4828). It's still within 2-3% of what they give, so I'd say it's pretty close!


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> Thanks for any ideas you guys might have. I love the Westin Los Cabos and am hopeful that there will be inventory there by at least 2024.



I recall long ago there were threads on owner to owner trades. Perhaps it’s time to revisit that option. To date, it’s been relatively easy to get any of the properties in Mexico via VSN. I haven’t looked at the Abound exchange rates for Los Cabos owners, but if it’s anything like WKV they may stay in VSN… so perhaps this is an opportunity for more owner to owner trades. Why should Marriott get the skim when we don’t have to give it to them?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

Negma said:


> And if you search 60 days out it can be a good deal at 30% off points.



Is the 30% discount within 60 days for all owners within Abound?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Negma

From FAQS

Last-minute Points reservation discounts:
When a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points, Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of required Club Points when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 30 days of arrival.
Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club Owner benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 60 days of arrival.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> We are talking about the future so there are no "facts" you can show me. It is your prognosis vs mine.


Right, clearly nothing factual has been posted by Marriott about exactly how the exchange program will work.  Your prognosis is clearly based on not actually reading any of the documents, and rather fear-mongering.  I have always tried to post a balanced assessment of the system, acknowledging where there are rights in the system for Marriott to take liberties, along with the reasons I don't think they will and where they haven't in the past....but, please go on, litter this thread with speculative fear mongering.



timsi said:


> *For 4 months, VSN is sitting on the bench, while members can book in Abound. For four months, every time a unit is booked in Abound by a Vistana owner, Vistana unit has to be deposited in Abound and will lower the potential inventory in VSN. Guess what, the more deposits and bookings in Abound, the more Marriott can move inventory to Abound "in anticipation of Network demand" and at its "sole discretion" Bit by bit, day after day. *The better Vistana units will be long gone before the VSN window opens.


This capability has existing with II (and units made available for rental by Marriott/Starwood) for the life of VSN - why no running around yelling that the sky is falling about that? The sole difference is that perhaps Abound offers additional compelling exchange opportunities.  Yes, if that's the case, inventory in VSN will decrease (along with a similar decrease in demand).  Your argument basically boils down to "Marriott is offering owners of the "better units" another exchange option and so it ruins VSN."  The assertion that VSN was a "better" and "superior" system is all based on the perspective of owners at resorts with lower costs and lower demand being able to trade into resorts with higher costs and higher demands at parity (which I have benefitted from personally many times - but I never saw it as a "right", especially given VSN ALWAYS retained the right to change StarOption allocations) .  I'm sure plenty of the OF Maui owners don't see it that way (which is why you see so many of them post that they never trade their units in VSN and choose to rent them instead).



CPNY said:


> Marriott will absolutely take the best inventory in anticipation of network demand. Marriott controlling inventory cannot be trusted.


Except that they've had control over the VSN inventory since 2018 and this hasn't materialized.  On the MVC side, they have similarly controlled inventory since 2010 and yet both weeks, DP and II all seem to continue to get decent trades.

I'm not a Marriott loyalist and I haven't owned a Marriott week since 2011 as I decided we preferred the VSN and Hilton resorts....I just think all the rampant negative speculation is exhausting and makes it hard to week through the actual facts about the program (of which there are some clear negatives - I don't dispute that; banking and borrowing is being marginalized, early check-in and late check-out going away for some and the more people that actually USE Abound the less inventory there will be in VSN, the current online systems are a disaster and I will also not be happy if we are not able to even "search" to see what availability there is before our specific reservation window opens....).

There seems to be some obsession that Marriott will "take" the best inventory....take it for who?!?!?  They own and facilitate VSN, DP and Abound - all three of them.  What motivation do they have to prefer one over the other?  Because Abound is the "new product" they are going to be selling???  Again, then this is analogous to 2010 - weeks owners have largely not been marginalized .  because of the DP product.  Again, I'm not trying to say it's ALL roses, I'm just trying to balance the paranoia.


----------



## SteveS1

TexasChic said:


> that is great but not what the rep communicated to us in our update meeting Earlier this week.   He even included his manager in the latter part of the call When we pushed back.  I said I would expect a lot of Harborside owners will not be happy and the conclusion was “that is just the way it is”.   I did let him know I would be escalating through Abound management and he was supposed to send additional info that I have not yet received.



Im in this same situation as @TexasChic. My requaled Harborside is needed for my 4*. I posted a similar concern in post #170 of this thread, 

Let me know what you find out since the faq does  imply we should  qualify by being grandfathered to presidential as 4*.

i too will complain… if we don’t get it ..

its a huge lose  if we don’t since presidential gets us Titanium in Bonvoy which I do find is very valuable (I had it before from making enough Amex purchases but it will be going away soon).


----------



## kozykritter

SteveS1 said:


> Im in this same situation as @TexasChic. My requaled Harborside is needed for my 4*. I posted a similar concern in post #170 of this thread,
> 
> Let me know what you find out since the faq does  imply we should  qualify by being grandfathered to presidential as 4*.
> 
> i too will complain… if we don’t get it ..
> 
> its a huge lose  if we don’t since presidential gets us Titanium in Bonvoy which I do find is very valuable (I had it before from making enough Amex purchases but it will be going away soon).


You are still getting VSN elite credit for owning Harborside unless it leaves the VSN system at some point down the line, so therefore you will still be a 4* when Abound launches. That is all that matters for you to be automatically mapped to Presidential, regardless of your Abound point level without Harborside included.


----------



## kozykritter

JIMinNC said:


> The Abound discussions over on the Marriott board are now very limited compared to the energetic discussions here, so even though I don't own in VSN, I've been reading and offering my thoughts here to try to help all of you guys understand the program better and, hopefully, help you all feel better about what the new program might offer you.
> 
> I have a question for you all now.
> 
> Since there is less change for us MVC folks, one of the main questions we have is, "How much VSN inventory will become available in Abound?" Those of you who do elect your VSN weeks for ClubPoints will immediately have access to the extensive inventory already in the MVC DC program that is transitioning to Abound, but us MVC folks will be dependent on what VSN folks choose to convert to Abound plus whatever inventory Marriott controls through the various Trusts. How many VSN owners choose to play in Abound will obviously be a big TBD and will likely change as time goes on, so we will just have to wait and see on that. What I'm trying to figure out, is what inventory does Marriott now have control over that might find its way into the MVC Exchange or Trusts?
> 
> We know Marriott just deeded a bunch of Sheraton intervals plus Westin Desert Willow, Mission Hills, and Princeville to the MVC Trust, so we know that inventory will be available for booking in Abound. But are there other Marriott-controlled sources that they might deposit to the Exchange? Here are a couple I could think of:
> 
> We have anecdotal info that the Westin Flex trust is sold out and the Sheraton Flex trust is close, so that probably won't be a source of inventory.
> What about Aventuras? That *can't* go into the Trust, but is there still unsold Aventuras inventory in Mexico - at Cabo or Cancun? If so, might Marriott put some of that into the Exchange until it's sold?
> Anything else I'm missing? Unsold VOIs at Westin Nanea, maybe?
> Thanks for any ideas you guys might have. I love the Westin Los Cabos and am hopeful that there will be inventory there by at least 2024.


Just like with Marriott, we have very little to no visibility into what unsold Vistana inventory they have, be it in a trust or just individual weeks laying about. They could still have a stockpile of reclaimed weeks (foreclosure, feedback, ROFR, etc) that may be moved over to the Marriott trust between now and October, or they could have moved over everything they already have in that big transfer last week.

We don't know for sure if the Westin and Sheraton Flex products are sold out or close to being sold out. All we think we know for certain is that they have stopped selling Westin Flex and will stop selling Sheraton Flex sometime soon so they can shift to selling Club Points instead. Once they stop selling Flex, it's possible they could start pulling out unsold or re-acquired inventory aka the underlying weeks and convey them to the Marriott Trust. Or they could keep selling Flex in bundles with reacquired weeks after Abound launches, a possibility Dioxide has suggested. Or they could do it all completely differently. So difficult to predict the effect on inventory availability in Abound.

One interesting aspect is how they will handle moving booking inventory when a Flex ownership is elected for Club Points, which I plan to do for part of my Sheraton Flex ownership as soon as the doors open! Theoretically they would go in  and pull inventory with the equivalent amount of home options attached from one of the nine underlying resorts and move that over to Abound for booking. The question is which inventory will they choose? Take a property like Steamboat Springs where besides the small original tower where everything was sold as weeks (and the owners virtually never put them up for exchange), the rest of the property was converted to timeshares and placed in Sheraton Flex around 2018 (which is why you didn't see any weeks conveyed in last week's big Sheraton trust deposit) so the only way you're going to see any availability for that property in Abound is if Marriott chooses to move weeks from that property over as the Flex inventory transfer.  One wonders if they will move any ski weeks over or would they pull more from mud season or summer. So many questions, so few answers right now!


----------



## SteveS1

kozykritter said:


> You are still getting VSN elite credit for owning Harborside unless it leaves the VSN system at some point down the line, so therefore you will still be a 4* when Abound launches. That is all that matters for you to be automatically mapped to Presidential, regardless of your Abound point level without Harborside included.


That’s what I thought  too based on the faq but seems that’s not what the  sales person and their manager told @TexasChic given the strange situation Harborside and Riverfront are in.

I haven’t attended an updates myself. I guess we’ll be patient and see for sure in Oct or whenever our Abound profiles are available.


----------



## kozykritter

SteveS1 said:


> That’s what I thought  too based on the faq but seems that’s not what the  sales person and their manager told @TexasChic given the strange situation Harborside and Riverfront are in.
> 
> I haven’t attended an updates myself. I guess we’ll be patient and see for sure in Oct or whenever our Abound profiles are available.


Yep, good plan. You can squawk loudly later if need be  

I seriously doubt that they're going to penalize the owners (and best clients) for a situation that is beyond their control and completely in the hands of Vistana/Marriott. Call me an optimist!


----------



## cubigbird

kozykritter said:


> Yep, good plan. You can squawk loudly later if need be
> 
> I seriously doubt that they're going to penalize the owners (and best clients) for a situation that is beyond their control and completely in the hands of Vistana/Marriott. Call me an optimist!



They already are penalizing their best owners (and best clients) by limiting the banking benefit and taking away the late check in/out.  Benefits we have actually benefited from as 5* elite.  I wouldn’t hold my breath….


----------



## kozykritter

Everyone has their own perspective on what the facts mean. Ours are different. There's room for everyone's here.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I booked an 8 night stay at the Ritz Tahoe during Spring Break a few years back. It is hard to book there but I have stayed there twice. I just came back from 15 nights at the Ritz St Thomas (my second stay there, last one was 8N). Other than Aspen, the Ritz Carltons are not super hard to book if you book right at 13 months or you keep checking. I suspect with all the new Vistana owners electing Club Points, it is going to get harder for the MVC points owners to book the best MVC resorts and locations. The competition is increasing for MVC resorts.


Let's keep those Vistana owners out! LOL.  I am both a Vistana and Marriott owner.


----------



## KACTravels

There is a new section on Vistana.com this morning all about Abound. I haven’t read through it but it has tutorials and a help center as well as Exchange procedure document. 




			https://content.marriottvacationclub.com/abound/Abound-by-Marriott-Vacations-Exchange-Procedures.pdf


----------



## KACTravels

First question directly addresses decreased benefits for Elite levels
Are there any benefits from my VSN Elite level that will no longer be available?
* Early check-in, late check-out, and concierge service that may have been previously available, based on demand, will no longer be available. Additionally, VSN Members at the higher Owner benefit levels will no longer receive discounted fees since they are replaced by Club Dues.


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## KACTravels

I find this reassuring and am more relaxed about this whole thing. In the new information posted, it clearly says to evaluate before electing.  They aren’t trying to grab all of the VSN inventory for the Marriott owners.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Let's keep those Vistana owners out! LOL.  I am both a Vistana and Marriott owner.



The point is that just like we Vistana owners think there are negatives about the new integrated program, so do we Marriott owners. As you know, I own both Vistana and Marriott too.

At least Vistana owners have a choice to stay in their own lane in the Vistana program and not participate in Abound.

Marriott owners have no choice but to be transitioned to Abound and have all these new Vistana people book their properties.

Maybe Marriott people should be complaining more loudly than Vistana people. LOL


----------



## Racing2007

JIMinNC said:


> Is the phrase that both of you are questioning the following one:
> 
> *Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.*
> If so, I think you may be misinterpreting what it means. They are not talking about when *owners* can book, but which inventory gets released on which days.
> 
> In the MVC Destination Club, which is what Abound is modeled after, different inventory gets released on different days of the week for a weeks worth of days, 12 months out. For example, traditional deeded weeks inventory for a full seven days (but really depends on which check-in days each resort offers for the deeded weeks, so may be Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun checkins for that week or whatever that resort sold) generally gets loaded for booking on each Thursday, 12 months in advance. Then the next day, on each Friday, Destination Points inventory gets loaded for booking.
> 
> The way I read the statement above is, this is how Abound points booking will work:
> 
> Abound inventory for MVC resorts will be loaded on Fridays. At that point, all Abound members - both those from the MVC legacy side who elected their ownership for Abound points and those from the VSN legacy side who elected their ownership for Abound points - will be able to book reservations at these MVC resorts. That's identical to the process today.
> Then, on the following Tuesday, any VSN inventory that has been elected into Abound will become available for all Abound elected members to book.
> So, the Friday/Tuesday divide is for INVENTORY not WHO can book. We all will be able to book new MVC resort inventory on Fridays (just like today in MVC) and we all will be able to book any available VSN inventory on the next Tuesday.


I see it read that way too, but it seems to give owners an advantage over that Fri, Sat, Sun to get VSN inventory prior to MVC as they cant access until Tuesday, right?


----------



## remowidget

Has anyone seen anything about this, "Four-Star and Five-Star VSN Elite members may request to be placed on a waiting list for reservations during the Network Float Period. The waiting list is only valid up to 60 days before the requested arrival date, at which point it ends and requests are no longer held."

We were told in May that the new software would actually make reservations a day early for 4 and 5 stars. Of course this was from sales, so...

Does MVC offer a similar benefit?


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> Has anyone seen anything about this, "Four-Star and Five-Star VSN Elite members may request to be placed on a waiting list for reservations during the Network Float Period. The waiting list is only valid up to 60 days before the requested arrival date, at which point it ends and requests are no longer held."
> 
> We were told in May that the new software would actually make reservations a day early for 4 and 5 stars. Of course this was from sales, so...
> 
> Does MVC offer a similar benefit?


Nope. Salesperson's lips were moving.


----------



## JIMinNC

Racing2007 said:


> I see it read that way too, but it seems to give owners an advantage over that Fri, Sat, Sun to get VSN inventory prior to MVC as they cant access until Tuesday, right?



In theory, I *think* the answer is yes. Abound members will not be able to access VSN inventory until the following Tuesday, so only weeks owners would theoretically have access to that inventory over the Fri-Mon timeframe. However, in practice, Marriott as program manager will already know how many VOIs have already been elected for Abound points, so do they somehow block/allocate the appropriate number of actual weeks/nights to cover the anticipated demand as soon as the owner window opens to protect the booking rights of Abound owners on Tuesday morning?

The above question has been one of the burning questions we on the MVC side have had since the inception of the MVC Destination Club about how everything works inside of the "MVC Inventory Management Black Box". One of the theories has been that the reason Marriott weeks owners can reserve on Thursdays, followed by Destination Club members on Friday, is that the 24 hour lag gives MVC the ability to allocate specific bookable weeks prior to the DC window opening on Friday.


----------



## Grandma2016

JIMinNC said:


> In theory, I *think* the answer is yes. Abound members will not be able to access VSN inventory until the following Tuesday, so only weeks owners would theoretically have access to that inventory over the Fri-Mon timeframe. However, in practice, Marriott as program manager will already know how many VOIs have already been elected for Abound points, so do they somehow block/allocate the appropriate number of actual weeks/nights to cover the anticipated demand as soon as the owner window opens to protect the booking rights of Abound owners on Tuesday morning?
> 
> The above question has been one of the burning questions we on the MVC side have had since the inception of the MVC Destination Club about how everything works inside of the "MVC Inventory Management Black Box". One of the theories has been that the reason Marriott weeks owners can reserve on Thursdays, followed by Destination Club members on Friday, is that the 24 hour lag gives MVC the ability to allocate specific bookable weeks prior to the DC window opening on Friday.


So if I had points in abound and I am chairman i could book 12 months or 13 months out looking at a Tuesday checkin for any number of nights?


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> I recall long ago there were threads on owner to owner trades. Perhaps it’s time to revisit that option. To date, it’s been relatively easy to get any of the properties in Mexico via VSN. I haven’t looked at the Abound exchange rates for Los Cabos owners, but if it’s anything like WKV they may stay in VSN… so perhaps this is an opportunity for more owner to owner trades. Why should Marriott get the skim when we don’t have to give it to them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



My question about what inventory - specifically Los Cabos - might find its way into Abound was from the perspective of a Marriott owner looking to visit a Westin/Sheraton location. We don't own VSN, so can't stay in VSN, so any Los Cabos inventory we can book will have to be in Abound. My question was more directed at any insight VSN owners might have on how much inventory remained unsold in Aventuras. Since Marriott controls that inventory, they could opt to make some of that unsold inventory available in the Abound Exchange Company. That might be a source of bookable inventory that is independent of which Avednturas owners choose to elect to use Abound.

As far as the Abound exchange rates, booking rates in the published points charts for the main Los Cabos building in the two highest seasons are 2750-3275 for a studio and 5625-9450 for the various two-bedroom options. I'm not sure how these numbers translate to the Aventuras Flex interests, and the *estimated *7% skim that's been tossed around here will need to be factored in to get to how much value an Aventuras owner will get for elected over to Abound.


----------



## Robotpedlr

I have tried to read as much as possible in this thread and the PDFs, but unless I missed something, I dont see a way to calculate how many Club Points I would get for my VSN Star Options.  All I see is a lot of "it depends", but no place to see how it is calculated and what "level" that would put me at.

I currently own (purchased via resale before 8/9) two contracts at Kierland.  Both are Platinum 2 bedroom lockouts.  1 is annual (148,100 star options) and the other 148,100 every other year.  Where would that point me for Club Points and their levels?  Or is that info not available yet.  

Thanks


----------



## JIMinNC

Grandma2016 said:


> So if I had points in abound and I am chairman i could book 12 months or 13 months out looking at a Tuesday checkin for any number of nights?



Not exactly. Abound will allow check-in any day of the week. The "Tuesday" references the day, roughly 12 months out, when the VSN inventory is actually released for booking in Abound. Today in MVC, inventory is released for booking in batches 7-days at a time, not day-by-day. The 12-month MVC inventory is released on Friday's for a Wednesday-Tuesday stretch of check-in dates 12 months into the future. For example, if I wanted to book a Points check-in at an MVC resort for any date from Wednesday October 4, 2023 through Tuesday October 10, 2023, that inventory will be released for booking on Friday October 7, 2022. Based on the FAQ, I am *assuming* that the VSN inventory will be released in the same 7-day increments, but it will just happen on the Tuesday after the MVC release on Friday. In the example above, that seems like it means the VSN inventory for that 10/4/2023 to 10/10/2023 range of check-in dates would show up in Abound on Tuesday, October 11, 2022.

One other thing, Chairman's level can book MVC inventory at 13 months out, but at least for the last 12 years, Marriott doesn't release ALL of the inventory for a given calendar week at 13 months. They hold back up to 50% to release at 12 months. That way, the high level owners can't book everything. According to the new Abound Exchange procedures, no Vistana resort inventory will be made available at 13 months, only MVC resorts. The Vistana inventory will not be made available in Abound until the 12 month prior I described in the first paragraph.


----------



## kozykritter

Robotpedlr said:


> I have tried to read as much as possible in this thread and the PDFs, but unless I missed something, I dont see a way to calculate how many Club Points I would get for my VSN Star Options.  All I see is a lot of "it depends", but no place to see how it is calculated and what "level" that would put me at.
> 
> I currently own (purchased via resale before 8/9) two contracts at Kierland.  Both are Platinum 2 bedroom lockouts.  1 is annual (148,100 star options) and the other 148,100 every other year.  Where would that point me for Club Points and their levels?  Or is that info not available yet.
> 
> Thanks


Go to the Vistana to Abound Point Tracker thread in this forum. Dioxide has put together a spreadsheet with the values that people were given in writing at sales presentations. I know Kierland properties are on there from looking at it.


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> Has anyone seen anything about this, "Four-Star and Five-Star VSN Elite members may request to be placed on a waiting list for reservations during the Network Float Period. The waiting list is only valid up to 60 days before the requested arrival date, at which point it ends and requests are no longer held."
> 
> We were told in May that the new software would actually make reservations a day early for 4 and 5 stars. Of course this was from sales, so...
> 
> Does MVC offer a similar benefit?




This has always been a 4-Star and 5-Star benefit. At least they kept it...

And unlike the Abound waitlist, you don't need to have the Staroptions available to get on a waitlist. You can keep a different reservation until the waitlist clears and then you have 24 hours to figure out how to "pay" for it.


----------



## daviator

DanCali said:


> This has always been a 4-Star and 5-Star benefit. At least they kept it...
> 
> And unlike the Abound waitlist, you don't need to have the Staroptions available to get on a waitlist. You can keep a different reservation until the waitlist clears and then you have 24 hours to figure out how to "pay" for it.


Just to clarify your comment, I think you mean that the waitlist has always been a benefit for 4-Star and 5-Star Vistana members.  It has, and despite the fact that many people here have pooh-pooh'd the waitlist, it's come through for me several times in the past.

But the "making reservations a day early for 4 and 5 stars" has not been a past benefit and I've seen no indication that it will be a future benefit either.  Sounds like this was just sales being sales...


----------



## dsmrp

JIMinNC said:


> My question about what inventory - specifically Los Cabos - might find its way into Abound was from the perspective of a Marriott owner looking to visit a Westin/Sheraton location. We don't own VSN, so can't stay in VSN, so any Los Cabos inventory we can book will have to be in Abound. My question was more directed at any insight VSN owners might have on how much inventory remained unsold in Aventuras. Since Marriott controls that inventory, they could opt to make some of that unsold inventory available in the Abound Exchange Company. That might be a source of bookable inventory that is independent of which Avednturas owners choose to elect to use Abound.
> 
> As far as the Abound exchange rates, booking rates in the published points charts for the main Los Cabos building in the two highest seasons are 2750-3275 for a studio and 5625-9450 for the various two-bedroom options. I'm not sure how these numbers translate to the Aventuras Flex interests, and the *estimated *7% skim that's been tossed around here will need to be factored in to get to how much value an Aventuras owner will get for elected over to Abound.


We stayed at Lagunamar and Los Cabos about 3-5 years ago, and sales at both places were pushing pts  , flex I think, not specifically Adventuras cause our ownership was already in VSN. I think Adventuras or unsold Mexican  inventory contains a lot of the hotel converted Westin Cancun. Just my guess, Lagunamar is popular and likely sold out , so maybe not so many units in Adventuras.  But more of Los Cabos. 

btw the std 2 bdrm unit at Los Cabos is  small. The 2nd bdrm is dark and has no windows.


----------



## Robotpedlr

kozykritter said:


> Go to the Vistana to Abound Point Tracker thread in this forum. Dioxide has put together a spreadsheet with the values that people were given in writing at sales presentations. I know Kierland properties are on there from looking at it.



Thanks that helped... so I guess I would be around 6k points (4050 x 1.5 for my 1 wk + EOY wk).  That puts me in Select.


----------



## RunCat

TravelTime said:


> Good luck finding a location with mild weather year round. We live in CA and it is scorching hot now when it used to be so mild that people did not even have AC. There was an article this week in a major media publication that has a chart of the US and the percentage of homes with AC. CA was very low.


Same is getting to be more true in CO.   Many of the older mountain TSs do not have AC. But it is getting warm enough that it might need to be added.  Living in Boulder, it is getting harder to live without it.  (Albeit, it is only really necessary in July/Aug.)


----------



## Racing2007

JIMinNC said:


> Not exactly. Abound will allow check-in any day of the week. The "Tuesday" references the day, roughly 12 months out, when the VSN inventory is actually released for booking in Abound. Today in MVC, inventory is released for booking in batches 7-days at a time, not day-by-day. The 12-month MVC inventory is released on Friday's for a Wednesday-Tuesday stretch of check-in dates 12 months into the future. For example, if I wanted to book a Points check-in at an MVC resort for any date from Wednesday October 4, 2023 through Tuesday October 10, 2023, that inventory will be released for booking on Friday October 7, 2022. Based on the FAQ, I am *assuming* that the VSN inventory will be released in the same 7-day increments, but it will just happen on the Tuesday after the MVC release on Friday. In the example above, that seems like it means the VSN inventory for that 10/4/2023 to 10/10/2023 range of check-in dates would show up in Abound on Tuesday, October 11, 2022.
> 
> One other thing, Chairman's level can book MVC inventory at 13 months out, but at least for the last 12 years, Marriott doesn't release ALL of the inventory for a given calendar week at 13 months. They hold back up to 50% to release at 12 months. That way, the high level owners can't book everything. According to the new Abound Exchange procedures, no Vistana resort inventory will be made available at 13 months, only MVC resorts. The Vistana inventory will not be made available in Abound until the 12 month prior I described in the first paragraph.


As you can see from the questions, owners in VSN should and appear will get some level of priority booking.  Would make no sense and would be highly disingenuous to deny owners first crack at their own resort at midnight 12 months out. I know Marriott can block rooms for their own purposes as they do now, but if demand by owners is high for certain weeks of the year, especially if you have a float, priority should always be given to owners in their home resort.  Lets hope that is unaffected and the decision making is appropriate. Where I really see the issue is going to be 8 months out. Will be really hard.


----------



## ocdb8r

Racing2007 said:


> As you can see from the questions, owners in VSN should and appear will get some level of priority booking.  Would make no sense and would be highly disingenuous to deny owners first crack at their own resort at midnight 12 months out. I know Marriott can block rooms for their own purposes as they do now, but if demand by owners is high for certain weeks of the year, especially if you have a float, priority should always be given to owners in their home resort.  Lets hope that is unaffected and the decision making is appropriate. Where I really see the issue is going to be 8 months out. Will be really hard.


The problem is this whole line of thinking is based on their being "one" bucket of inventory that both Abound and VSN will pull from.  I suspect that will not be the case.  Inventory will be segregated (and allocated) based on the projections created by Marriott based on the "election" of points by VSN owners (and on the flip side the number of Abound owners using Abound points to book into VSN resorts).  I am CERTAIN we will see reports where someone goes too book and inventory is available to book in VSN but not available to book using Abound points (and vice-versa)....and as such the timing of the opening of the two systems booking windows will matter little (as far as "competition" between the two system goes).


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## SteveS1

Is anyone finding any contact information for Abound. They spent all this time creating the extensive FAQs and 16 videos but not a single statement like "I know you may still have questions, and we are happy to answer them by contacting x,y,z". This program is for their customers who've invested thousands (tens of thousands) in their product, and there are clearly corner cases that haven't been fully addressed.


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## JIMinNC

Racing2007 said:


> As you can see from the questions, owners in VSN should and appear will get some level of priority booking.  Would make no sense and would be highly disingenuous to deny owners first crack at their own resort at midnight 12 months out. I know Marriott can block rooms for their own purposes as they do now, but if demand by owners is high for certain weeks of the year, especially if you have a float, priority should always be given to owners in their home resort.  Lets hope that is unaffected and the decision making is appropriate. Where I really see the issue is going to be 8 months out. Will be really hard.



As others have said in other examples, the same potential for abuse you reference exists today for MVC in the Destination Club. Owner weeks bookings open on Thursday at 9am, but Points bookings don't open up until The following day on Friday. MVC could, in theory, snap up the prime weeks in high demand locations, but there is no evidence abuse has happened. I'm sure they will allocate a certain number of high demand locations/weeks for Points owners, but there is no evidence they abuse this privilege. Don't know why they would start now.


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## TravelTime

RunCat said:


> Same is getting to be more true in CO.   Many of the older mountain TSs do not have AC. But it is getting warm enough that it might need to be added.  Living in Boulder, it is getting harder to live without it.  (Albeit, it is only really necessary in July/Aug.)



This is very true. Unless you are directly on the ocean, it is getting very warm. Many wildfires in CA and CO. Even on the ocean, you can walk a few blocks inland and it is steaming. For example, we go to Pismo every year 1 -2 times a year. It can be freezing when we walk along the ocean. Then we walk 2 blocks into town and it is really hot with the hot sun shining down on us. Also many heat waves where people without AC are suffering intensely even in places with mild temps otherwise.

To make this post relevant, it is good to know the weather when booking timeshares.


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## JIMinNC

dsmrp said:


> We stayed at Lagunamar and Los Cabos about 3-5 years ago, and sales at both places were pushing pts  , flex I think, not specifically Adventuras cause our ownership was already in VSN. I think Adventuras or unsold Mexican  inventory contains a lot of the hotel converted Westin Cancun. Just my guess, Lagunamar is popular and likely sold out , so maybe not so many units in Adventuras.  But more of Los Cabos.
> 
> btw the std 2 bdrm unit at Los Cabos is  small. The 2nd bdrm is dark and has no windows.



As I understand the way these trusts like Aventuras work, once inventory gets deeded over to the Trust, sales are not apportioned to individual resorts. The resorts themselves are 100% sold out - the trust just owns all of the intervals (for resorts that were never sold as weeks). When people buy an interest in the trust (like Aventuras) they are buying a proportional interest in all of the deeds in the trust, regardless of when those deeds were transferred to that trust. So if the latest inventory added happens to be hotel units in Cancun, once they are in the trust, that becomes irrelevant. Any trust owner has equal booking rights to all of the inventory in the trust, even inventory that was deeded over years earlier. So, what seems most important is, is the trust as a whole 30% sold, 50% sold, 80% sold, etc. If it's 50% sold, then owners would control only half of the inventory, so Marriott could do more or less as they wish with their 50% and could allocate that based on how they see demand - they could rent, deposit to II, or deposit to the Abound Exchange a mix of units throughout the Trust's ownership. On the other hand, if the trust was 80% sold, then Marriott would only have discretion with 20%.

And for Los Cabos specifically, our interest is primarily in their studios. That is all we need. We stayed there twice in 2018 and 2019 on preview packages in a studio, and it was all we need - washer/dryer, small cooktop, refrigerator.


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## Racing2007

JIMinNC said:


> As others have said in other examples, the same potential for abuse you reference exists today for MVC in the Destination Club. Owner weeks bookings open on Thursday at 9am, but Points bookings don't open up until The following day on Friday. MVC could, in theory, snap up the prime weeks in high demand locations, but there is no evidence abuse has happened. I'm sure they will allocate a certain number of high demand locations/weeks for Points owners, but there is no evidence they abuse this privilege. Don't know why they would start now.


This is all just concerning.  Alot of owners own to go back to their home resort every year. This is true with Hawaii locations, as I am sure others. People bought at those locations so they could go when they wanted each year. To have to compete with non-deeded or general deeded owners as in the collective that Abound will be, is very unfair.  It is hopeful that Marriott has seen this and will respect the intent of owners. Clarification from Marriott needs to be forthcoming soon.


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## JIMinNC

Racing2007 said:


> This is all just concerning.  Alot of owners own to go back to their home resort every year. This is true with Hawaii locations, as I am sure others. People bought at those locations so they could go when they wanted each year. To have to compete with non-deeded or general deeded owners as in the collective that Abound will be, is very unfair.  It is hopeful that Marriott has seen this and will respect the intent of owners. Clarification from Marriott needs to be forthcoming soon.



Yes, but that was the same exact concern/situation for Marriott weeks owners when the Points program launched in 2010. MVC owners bought our Hawaii weeks for the same reasons you did - to go there every year. We all had the same concerns that you are voicing now, but we can still book our deeded weeks if we want. Marriott has not abused their ability to allocate inventory to different buckets and seems to attempt to fairly balance supply/demand between their buckets. MVC owners' fears were unfounded, I hope yours prove to be as well.

I will say, though, that the *perception* that inventory can be manipulated to the disadvantage of weeks owners is primarily fueled by sales reps who, in the push to make a points sale, claim "you won't be able to book your weeks anymore. Everyone is moving to points." As we often say on TUG, take these statements in the context of where they are coming from..."if a sales reps lips are moving..."


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## Racing2007

Appreciate the response and detail. Hopefully we all will be whole at the end of this.


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## Ken555

Robotpedlr said:


> Thanks that helped... so I guess I would be around 6k points (4050 x 1.5 for my 1 wk + EOY wk). That puts me in Select.



Didn’t I read that Select starts at 4,000? So a single WKV plat plus annual 2-bed will get that level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tucsonadventurer

Information from our Lagunamar presentation today: to participate in Abound we need to spend $10,000 to be eligible. They had an every other yr 1 bedroom for 11,000. They had this Information in their training materials and showed us. They said we could have it written in our contract that we were in Abound. We already own 5 timeshare weeks so didn't purchase.  I would probably only use Abound a few times so it's not a huge deal but a little disappointing.


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## VacationForever

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Information from our Lagunamar presentation today: to participate in Abound we need to spend $10,000 to be eligible. They had an every other yr 1 bedroom for 11,000. They had this Information in their training materials and showed us. They said we could have it written in our contract that we were in Abound. We already own 5 timeshare weeks so didn't purchase.  I would probably only use Abound a few times so it's not a huge deal but a little disappointing.


Your profile says Kierland, if it is the timeshare that they are telling you to buy something to re-qualify, then the salesperson is lying.


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## wjarcher

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Information from our Lagunamar presentation today: to participate in Abound we need to spend $10,000 to be eligible. They had an every other yr 1 bedroom for 11,000. They had this Information in their training materials and showed us. They said we could have it written in our contract that we were in Abound. We already own 5 timeshare weeks so didn't purchase.  I would probably only use Abound a few times so it's not a huge deal but a little disappointing.



Do you have any voluntary resale weeks (such as Lagunamar) with Vistana?  If yes, then $10k is the cost to retro one week into VSN and then it will become eligible for Abound.  For weeks that are already in VSN, they should be eligible without extra spending.


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## kozykritter

I think the conflict in answers comes from the fact that the FAQs never addressed requalified resales as a category for Abound eligibility. If you see them as being equal to a developer purchase, then perhaps they are in. If you see them as a resale not in the VSN before 8/9, they would be out. Vistana, please help us out with an answer!

Regardless of Abound eligibility, the requalification would make them eligible for full VSN internal rights including StarOptions...probably... or maybe not.


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## Tucsonadventurer

wjarcher said:


> Do you have any voluntary resale weeks (such as Lagunamar) with Vistana?  If yes, then $10k is the cost to retro one week into VSN and then it will become eligible for Abound.  For weeks that are already in VSN, they should be eligible without extra spending.


We own Kierland 148,1000 and no it's not I n Abound according to them. They showed me their training Manuel. If they aren't being truthful that would be appaling


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## Tucsonadventurer

VacationForever said:


> Your profile says Kierland, if it is the timeshare that they are telling you to buy something to re-qualify, then the salesperson is lying.


They swore up and down they were upfront.They said their morning training mtg was about resales


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## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> Just like with Marriott, we have very little to no visibility into what unsold Vistana inventory they have, be it in a trust or just individual weeks laying about. They could still have a stockpile of reclaimed weeks (foreclosure, feedback, ROFR, etc) that may be moved over to the Marriott trust between now and October, or they could have moved over everything they already have in that big transfer last week.
> 
> We don't know for sure if the Westin and Sheraton Flex products are sold out or close to being sold out. All we think we know for certain is that they have stopped selling Westin Flex and will stop selling Sheraton Flex sometime soon so they can shift to selling Club Points instead. Once they stop selling Flex, it's possible they could start pulling out unsold or re-acquired inventory aka the underlying weeks and convey them to the Marriott Trust. Or they could keep selling Flex in bundles with reacquired weeks after Abound launches, a possibility Dioxide has suggested. Or they could do it all completely differently. So difficult to predict the effect on inventory availability in Abound.
> 
> One interesting aspect is how they will handle moving booking inventory when a Flex ownership is elected for Club Points, which I plan to do for part of my Sheraton Flex ownership as soon as the doors open! Theoretically they would go in  and pull inventory with the equivalent amount of home options attached from one of the nine underlying resorts and move that over to Abound for booking. The question is which inventory will they choose? Take a property like Steamboat Springs where besides the small original tower where everything was sold as weeks (and the owners virtually never put them up for exchange), the rest of the property was converted to timeshares and placed in Sheraton Flex around 2018 (which is why you didn't see any weeks conveyed in last week's big Sheraton trust deposit) so the only way you're going to see any availability for that property in Abound is if Marriott chooses to move weeks from that property over as the Flex inventory transfer.  One wonders if they will move any ski weeks over or would they pull more from mud season or summer. So many questions, so few answers right now!



I would hope and expect Marriott would put all reclaimed weeks into the trust. Isn’t that the entire purpose of reclaiming weeks?


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## pchung6

I attended the sales presentation and expressed my concerns about new program. We were out in 20 minutes because sales cannot answer my question. I asked if I buy flex today, can you retro both of my Marriott resale deed and Vistana resale deed? They said they can only retro Vistana, not sure they can retro my MKO. Then we were out because of that.


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## TravelTime

Just a question for those discussing how inventory is allocated to Abound. Does it really make any difference how it is done? Why do we need to know the how?

We just need to get online after Abound is launched and see what is available. We know for a fact that the MVC side is not getting access to Vistana inventory unless Vistana owners elect Abound points. So for sure MVC is disadvantaged.


----------



## TravelTime

SteveS1 said:


> Is anyone finding any contact information for Abound. They spent all this time creating the extensive FAQs and 16 videos but not a single statement like "I know you may still have questions, and we are happy to answer them by contacting x,y,z". This program is for their customers who've invested thousands (tens of thousands) in their product, and there are clearly corner cases that haven't been fully addressed.



You can call and ask. I do not recall them posting emails on the website, unless I missed it or have not looked. Sometimes people post an email if they have a contact.


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## robertk2012

More lies from their little printed folders.  





Tucsonadventurer said:


> Information from our Lagunamar presentation today: to participate in Abound we need to spend $10,000 to be eligible. They had an every other yr 1 bedroom for 11,000. They had this Information in their training materials and showed us. They said we could have it written in our contract that we were in Abound. We already own 5 timeshare weeks so didn't purchase.  I would probably only use Abound a few times so it's not a huge deal but a little disappointing.


----------



## JIMinNC

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Information from our Lagunamar presentation today: to participate in Abound we need to spend $10,000 to be eligible. They had an every other yr 1 bedroom for 11,000. They had this Information in their training materials and showed us. They said we could have it written in our contract that we were in Abound. We already own 5 timeshare weeks so didn't purchase.  I would probably only use Abound a few times so it's not a huge deal but a little disappointing.



I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in anything about Abound you hear at a sales presentation right now, so don't be disappointed yet. It's possible they were not telling you the whole story just to make a sale, but it's also possible they could be as confused about all of this as MVC and VSN owners are. "We were talking about this just this morning in our sales meeting," is one of the oldest lines in the timeshare sales business. The official communications from corporate will be the definitive word on all of this, so I would put more weight on what the FAQs say than what a sales person says right now. Obviously, there is still some ambiguity in the FAQs, but that will all be cleared up once the systems are updated later this fall and you see whether your Kierland week qualifies in your online account. That will be the definitive answer.


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## TravelTime

Racing2007 said:


> This is all just concerning.  Alot of owners own to go back to their home resort every year. This is true with Hawaii locations, as I am sure others. People bought at those locations so they could go when they wanted each year. To have to compete with non-deeded or general deeded owners as in the collective that Abound will be, is very unfair.  It is hopeful that Marriott has seen this and will respect the intent of owners. Clarification from Marriott needs to be forthcoming soon.



@JIMinNC said the following: 

“In theory, snap up the prime weeks in high demand locations, but there is no evidence abuse has happened. I'm sure they will allocate a certain number of high demand locations/weeks for Points owners, but there is no evidence they abuse this privilege. Don't know why they would start now.”

”Marriott has not abused their ability to allocate inventory to different buckets and seems to attempt to fairly balance supply/demand between their buckets. MVC owners' fears were unfounded, I hope yours prove to be as well.”

So how is this concerning?


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## TravelTime

The Vistana website says this:
Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or reseller and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations.

To me, this sounds a lot clearer that resale mandatory resorts in the VSN are being treated equally to VOIs purchased from the developer. I just wish it would add something like “at not additional cost” or ”complimentary” or some clear wording. For all we know, they could add an enrollment fee even for developer purchased VOIs. Have they made it clear that developer purchased VOIs will not have any enrollment fee? If so, then it is already clear for both developer and mandartory.


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## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> The Vistana website says this:
> Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or reseller and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations.
> 
> To me, this sounds a lot clearer that resale mandatory resorts in the VSN are being treated equally to VOIs purchased from the developer. I just wish it would add something like “at not additional cost” or ”complimentary” or some clear wording. For all we know, they could add an enrollment fee even for developer purchased VOIs. Have they made it clear that developer purchased VOIs will not have any enrollment fee? If so, then it is already clear for both developer and mandartory.



Executive Management stated in the June Investor Day presentation at the New York Stock Exchange that there would be no cost for MVC or VSN owners to join Abound. It was pretty cut and dried.


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## robertk2012

I doubt they would release all the other fees and then try to sneak an enrollment fee in on everyone.


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## Tucsonadventurer

JIMinNC said:


> I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in anything about Abound you hear at a sales presentation right now, so don't be disappointed yet. It's possible they were not telling you the whole story just to make a sale, but it's also possible they could be as confused about all of this as MVC and VSN owners are. "We were talking about this just this morning in our sales meeting," is one of the oldest lines in the timeshare sales business. The official communications from corporate will be the definitive word on all of this, so I would put more weight on what the FAQs say than what a sales person says right now. Obviously, there is still some ambiguity in the FAQs, but that will all be cleared up once the systems are updated later this fall and you see whether your Kierland week qualifies in your online account. That will be the definitive answer.


Thanks makes sense


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## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> Executive Management stated in the June Investor Day presentation at the New York Stock Exchange that there would be no cost for MVC or VSN owners to join Abound. It was pretty cut and dried.



Oh okay. Then it is clear cut with the wording that resale mandatory owners will not have a fee either since they are VSN owners with eligible VOIs. Is that correct?


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## TravelTime

I am wondering how they know which accounts we have with MVC and which are with Vistana? Even if they can match contract names, would there be a high error rate? 

What if there are two owners on contracts and one is primary with MVC and one is primary with Vistana but the same two owners. I have always been told by Marriott when I call in that they recognize both me and my husband as equal owners and that they know this by looking in their system.

Just in case, I hope I have the primary owners the same on both my MVC and my Vistana contracts because I think it would easier for Marriott to match up my contracts. I need to check.


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## DavidnRobin

Don’t forget - Sales Contracts from Vistana (and likely true for MVC) has a clause that states anything said during a Sales Presentation is not valid unless specified in the Contact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> I am wondering how they know which accounts we have with MVC and which are with Vistana? Even if they can match contract names, would there be a high error rate?
> 
> What if there are two owners on contracts and one is primary with MVC and one is primary with Vistana but the same two owners. I have always been told by Marriott when I call in that they recognize both me and my husband as equal owners and that they know this by looking in their system.
> 
> Just in case, I hope I have the primary owners the same on both my MVC and my Vistana contracts because I think it would easier for Marriott to match up my contracts. I need to check.



I predict once the consolidated systems come online later this fall, the inevitable mis-matches will be the cause of another 500+ post TUG thread!


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## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> Right, clearly nothing factual has been posted by Marriott about exactly how the exchange program will work.  Your prognosis is clearly based on not actually reading any of the documents, and rather fear-mongering.  I have always tried to post a balanced assessment of the system, acknowledging where there are rights in the system for Marriott to take liberties, along with the reasons I don't think they will and where they haven't in the past....but, please go on, litter this thread with speculative fear mongering.
> 
> 
> *This capability has existing with II *(and units made available for rental by Marriott/Starwood) for the life of VSN - why no running around yelling that the sky is falling about that? The sole difference is that perhaps Abound offers additional compelling exchange opportunities.  Yes, if that's the case, inventory in VSN will decrease (along with a similar decrease in demand).  Your argument basically boils down to "Marriott is offering owners of the "better units" another exchange option and so it ruins VSN."  *The assertion that VSN was a "better" and "superior" system is all based on the perspective of owners at resorts with lower costs and lower demand being able to trade into resorts with higher costs and higher demands at parity *(which I have benefitted from personally many times - but I never saw it as a "right", especially given VSN ALWAYS retained the right to change StarOption allocations) .  I'm sure plenty of the OF Maui owners don't see it that way (which is why you see so many of them post that they never trade their units in VSN and choose to rent them instead).
> 
> 
> Except that *they've had control over the VSN inventory since 2018 and this hasn't materialized. * On the MVC side, they have similarly controlled inventory since 2010 and yet both weeks, DP and II all seem to continue to get decent trades.
> 
> I'm not a Marriott loyalist and I haven't owned a Marriott week since 2011 as I decided we preferred the VSN and Hilton resorts....I just think all the rampant negative speculation is exhausting and makes it hard to week through the actual facts about the program (of which there are some clear negatives - I don't dispute that; banking and borrowing is being marginalized, early check-in and late check-out going away for some and the more people that actually USE Abound the less inventory there will be in VSN, the current online systems are a disaster and I will also not be happy if we are not able to even "search" to see what availability there is before our specific reservation window opens....).
> 
> There seems to be some *obsession that Marriott will "take" the best inventory....take it for who?!?!?*  They own and facilitate VSN, DP and Abound - all three of them.  What motivation do they have to prefer one over the other?  Because Abound is the "new product" they are going to be selling???  Again, then this is analogous to 2010 - weeks owners have largely not been marginalized .  because of the DP product.  Again, I'm not trying to say it's ALL roses, I'm just trying to balance the paranoia.




Trading is relatively minor in Interval  (per VSN resort) you cannot compare it with creating a network (Abound) that puts the exchangers at the same level with the resort owners. Have a look in the Sightings section and see  how many units are being deposited per year at certain Vistana resorts, sometimes less than 20 or 10 (many times zero)
Marriott owns Interval indeed but it does not have an incentive to give them prime inventory.  This is not the case with Abound, this is what they will sell going forward and when you ask someone for 30, 50, or 100 thousand dollars in new money you want to deliver. The skim is also important to them, anything deposited there is economically beneficial to the network. It is also important because anyone who books a premium week will pay a premium cost in points. Since prime season always has higher occupancy rates, despite the higher cost, the average skim is  probably significantly higher in practice than people think. Advantage Marriott again. 

Vistana (now owned by Marriott)  deposits in Interval weeks that are not necessarily the best of the season, keeping the better reservations for...  you tell me for what. Why do you think the bulk deposits exist in the first place? Statistically speaking, every week of the year is deposited because things happen and people can't travel sometimes, but do you ever see every week in Interval? I have a friend who had to deposit week 52 at Lagunamar a couple of times (2 BR). I assume he is not the only one. How many times have you seen one in Interval? 

Concerning Abound, let's look at the facts. The resort documents (and the VSN rules) have strong language to protect the exclusive rights of the owners during the  home reservation resort period:

"*Home Resort Float Period means* the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home Resort have* the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort*, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules."

There is an exception both in the resort and the Network rules  but it is limited: "*from time to time*"

"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Marriott Bonvoy Program Exchanges. Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods* from time to time *at any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Marriott Bonvoy Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request."

I am quite surprised honestly that this has past even the internal scrutiny but to me it does not pass the smell test, at the minimum. Daily or weekly is not "from time to time" and not an exception. When you combine this with the IT problems and the other issues that occurred since Marriott took over, the image is not exactly flattering to them. With that being said, we do not have to see it the same way. The  sky is not falling but it is not clear and I wish it was, we are talking about vacations here.


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## Jimmyboy

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We own Kierland 148,1000 and no it's not I n Abound according to them. They showed me their training Manuel. If they aren't being truthful that would be appaling


 
If you bought Kierland prior to 8/8 this year you are in and have been enrolled in VSN you are should be in.


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## timsi

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We own Kierland 148,1000 and no it's not I n Abound according to them. They showed me their training Manuel. If they aren't being truthful that would be appaling


It is possible they only decided to include the resale mandatory resorts at the very last minute and it is possible some internal communication did specify they would not be enrolled in Abound. Who knows how many versions of the FAQ have been distributed internally? At the same time, the sales  reps should communicate up to date info.


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## Racing2007

TravelTime said:


> @JIMinNC said the following:
> 
> “In theory, snap up the prime weeks in high demand locations, but there is no evidence abuse has happened. I'm sure they will allocate a certain number of high demand locations/weeks for Points owners, but there is no evidence they abuse this privilege. Don't know why they would start now.”
> 
> ”Marriott has not abused their ability to allocate inventory to different buckets and seems to attempt to fairly balance supply/demand between their buckets. MVC owners' fears were unfounded, I hope yours prove to be as well.”
> 
> So how is this concerning?


Not to be blunt, but this is about getting what you what you bought and the promises that were made.  Sky not falling, but will wait and see for proof sake


----------



## Troyrissa

JIMinNC said:


> As I understand the way these trusts like Aventuras work, once inventory gets deeded over to the Trust, sales are not apportioned to individual resorts. The resorts themselves are 100% sold out - the trust just owns all of the intervals (for resorts that were never sold as weeks). When people buy an interest in the trust (like Aventuras) they are buying a proportional interest in all of the deeds in the trust, regardless of when those deeds were transferred to that trust. So if the latest inventory added happens to be hotel units in Cancun, once they are in the trust, that becomes irrelevant. Any trust owner has equal booking rights to all of the inventory in the trust, even inventory that was deeded over years earlier. So, what seems most important is, is the trust as a whole 30% sold, 50% sold, 80% sold, etc. If it's 50% sold, then owners would control only half of the inventory, so Marriott could do more or less as they wish with their 50% and could allocate that based on how they see demand - they could rent, deposit to II, or deposit to the Abound Exchange a mix of units throughout the Trust's ownership. On the other hand, if the trust was 80% sold, then Marriott would only have discretion with 20%.
> 
> And for Los Cabos specifically, our interest is primarily in their studios. That is all we need. We stayed there twice in 2018 and 2019 on preview packages in a studio, and it was all we need - washer/dryer, small cooktop, refrigerator.


I own Aventuras. Haven’t been to an update recently so I don’t know how much of the trust is sold. I will say however that in 2021 I easily got a reservation in Los Cabos about 7 months out. We waited until we knew our plans for sure. I tried to do that for spring 2023 to use some banked staroptions and no go. I couldn’t get anything outside of the home resort priority period even though availability was showing just a day before the priority period ended.  I have been checking multiple timeframes but it just isn’t happening. I don’t know what is driving the apparent increased demand.  In April 2021 the resort wasn’t even half full.  I’m not optimistic that you will easily get Los Cabos thru Abound but time will tell.


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## timsi

Troyrissa said:


> I own Aventuras. Haven’t been to an update recently so I don’t know how much of the trust is sold. I will say however that in 2021 I easily got a reservation in Los Cabos about 7 months out. We waited until we knew our plans for sure. I tried to do that for spring 2023 to use some banked staroptions and no go. I couldn’t get anything outside of the home resort priority period even though availability was showing just a day before the priority period ended.  I have been checking multiple timeframes but it just isn’t happening. I don’t know what is driving the apparent increased demand.  In April 2021 the resort wasn’t even half full.  I’m not optimistic that you will easily get Los Cabos thru Abound but time will tell.


For some reason, they decided to make Los Cabos very expensive in Abound. You would exchange Aventuras points , a blend of Los Cabos, Lagunamar and Westin Cancun for the most expensive of the 3. Spring is also at a premium in Abound, I would keep on looking in VSN. 

By the way, does anyone know how many Abound points will be received when someone deposits a fix event week? I have a friend who owns 52 at Lagunamar and I assume he should get the equivalent of that week with no skim?


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> For some reason, they decided to make Los Cabos very expensive in Abound. You would exchange Aventuras points , a blend of Los Cabos, Lagunamar and Westin Cancun for the most expensive of the 3. Spring is also at a premium in Abound, I would keep on looking in VSN.
> 
> By the way, does anyone know how many Abound points will be received when someone deposits a fix event week? I have a friend who owns 52 at Lagunamar and I assume he should get the equivalent of that week with no skim?



The points for Mexico and esp Cabo really surprised me, given how cheap the alternatives are. I wonder what some reasons could be, not that it totally matters. If you want to go and have the points to go, you will go.


----------



## byeloe

TravelTime said:


> given how cheap the alternatives are.


Which alternatives are you referring to?


----------



## JIMinNC

Troyrissa said:


> I own Aventuras. Haven’t been to an update recently so I don’t know how much of the trust is sold. I will say however that in 2021 I easily got a reservation in Los Cabos about 7 months out. We waited until we knew our plans for sure. I tried to do that for spring 2023 to use some banked staroptions and no go. I couldn’t get anything outside of the home resort priority period even though availability was showing just a day before the priority period ended.  I have been checking multiple timeframes but it just isn’t happening. I don’t know what is driving the apparent increased demand.  In April 2021 the resort wasn’t even half full.  I’m not optimistic that you will easily get Los Cabos thru Abound but time will tell.



I expect 2021 demand was still impacted by the Covid travel hangover.

All we would likely ever need to book in Cabo are the studios. Hopefully some of those will find their way into Abound. As you say, time will tell.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

timsi said:


> For some reason, they decided to make Los Cabos very expensive in Abound. You would exchange Aventuras points , a blend of Los Cabos, Lagunamar and Westin Cancun for the most expensive of the 3. Spring is also at a premium in Abound, I would keep on looking in VSN.
> 
> By the way, does anyone know how many Abound points will be received when someone deposits a fix event week? I have a friend who owns 52 at Lagunamar and I assume he should get the equivalent of that week with no skim?


I believe it is 4900 abound points


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> The points for Mexico and esp Cabo really surprised me, given how cheap the alternatives are. I wonder what some reasons could be, not that it totally matters. If you want to go and have the points to go, you will go.


I think it is because they have a lot of Aventuras time to sell, so a higher point value means they have even more points to sell.


----------



## byeloe

Tucsonadventurer said:


> I believe it is 4900 abound points


I thought that a Platinum season 2BD float was receiving 4950, so I would expect a week 52 fixed would receive more given that Wk 52 is the most expensive to book, I think 7900 pts


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

byeloe said:


> I thought that a Platinum season 2BD float was receiving 4950, so I would expect a week 52 fixed would receive more given that Wk 52 is the most expensive to book, I think 7900 pts


Makes sense. I just asked at our mtg yoday  in general not specifying week.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> We know for a fact that the MVC side is not getting access to Vistana inventory unless Vistana owners elect Abound points. So for sure MVC is disadvantaged.


Do we know this for a fact? Some have stated earlier than Marriott can put unsold Vistana inventory they own into the abound exchange. Is that true? Would that inventory have been put into the VSN historically?


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Do we know this for a fact? Some have stated earlier than Marriott can put unsold Vistana inventory they own into the abound exchange. Is that true? Would that inventory have been put into the VSN historically?


We do know that some Vistana VOIs are now in the MVC trust. But even then, the point is rather moot because as the owner of the unsold VOIs, Marriott could elect those Vistana inventories into Abound without having to put them in the trust.

Also, keep in mind it’s not clear whether unbooked Vistana properties in theory would be available via VSN at the 8-month mark even if they are sitting on the “Abound side” - at least for the Mandatory properties.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Do we know this for a fact? Some have stated earlier than Marriott can put unsold Vistana inventory they own into the abound exchange. Is that true? Would that inventory have been put into the VSN historically?



Marriott said this in its announcement that was posted by Tug members. If Marriott does own some inventory, then they can elect Abound points just like any other owner. We say owners have priority and Marriott is an owner.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Marriott said this in its announcement that was posted by Tug members. If Marriott does own some inventory, then they can elect Abound points just like any other owner. We say owners have priority and Marriott is an owner.


Correct, historically that inventory was made available in the VSN, going forward it won’t be. I will be put into abound. Which will ultimately decrease VSN inventory.


----------



## ndang3

Does anyone know if we can see availability in Abound before electing? For example if I’m interested in booking something within the next use year which happens to be within the 12 months on election deadline, my decision to elect or not would be dependent upon availability.


----------



## CPNY

ndang3 said:


> Does anyone know if we can see availability in Abound before electing? For example if I’m interested in booking something within the next use year which happens to be within the 12 months on election deadline, my decision to elect or not would be dependent upon availability.


I’d say probably not but that doesn’t mean you can’t ask someone who owns DC points already to check for you


----------



## GregT

Hello Starwood TUGgers,

I don't know if this is on point for this particular thread, but it is a strategy that Marriott owners have employed.

If after evaluating the Marriott system, if you decide you like points but also personally utilize your Starwood week (rent/use), then simply go purchase a duplicate Starwood week.  Use the newly purchased week as your home property (stay in it, rent it) and take your original Starwood week and mentally ascribe it to be a "points generator".     My Aruba week is a points generator and every year, I know I will redeem it for points.  Other properties have different usages, but having a dedicated points generator is useful.

Additionally, you can start to think about different stays -- a 10 day reservation is now on the table -- 7 days with your newly purchased week, and then book 3 nights with points.

I hope this makes sense -- just trying to recall things we have done to maximize the system.

Best,

Greg


----------



## timsi

GregT said:


> Hello Starwood TUGgers,
> 
> I don't know if this is on point for this particular thread, but it is a strategy that Marriott owners have employed.
> 
> If after evaluating the Marriott system, if you decide you like points but also personally utilize your Starwood week (rent/use), then simply go purchase a duplicate Starwood week.  Use the newly purchased week as your home property (stay in it, rent it) and take your original Starwood week and mentally ascribe it to be a "points generator".     My Aruba week is a points generator and every year, I know I will redeem it for points.  Other properties have different usages, but having a dedicated points generator is useful.
> 
> Additionally, you can start to think about different stays -- a 10 day reservation is now on the table -- 7 days with your newly purchased week, and then book 3 nights with points.
> 
> I hope this makes sense -- just trying to recall things we have done to maximize the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I appreciate it but can't we currently book 10 days  in VSN using Staroptions?


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> I appreciate it but can't we currently book 10 days  in VSN using Staroptions?



We can but then you would lose some booking advantages because you would not have the exact number of SOs left for another full booking and probably end up losing the remaining SOs because where would you use the remaining SOs?


----------



## CPNY

This is interesting.

Could this mean there is an initiation “junk fee” for mandatory resales going forward? This will allow resales to be brought back into the abound program or possibly voluntary resales also, Thoughts?


VSN Members. For so long as the VSN Affiliation Agreement remains in effect, VSN Members in good standing shall be permitted to participate in the Program as a benefit of their membership in the Network. No Exchange Company Dues (beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network) shall be payable to Exchange Company by VSN Members.

Effect of Transfer of Program Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Program Member (“Selling Program Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Program Member’s Interest to another party (“New Program Member”), the Selling Program Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. *Each New Program Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Program Member is a Family Member of the Selling Program Member. The current initiation fee is $750 per Interest with a $3,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole discretion. *Exchange Company will, within fourteen (14) business days of receipt from a New Program Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Program Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Program Member to a New Program Member. Further, with respect to Direct Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Program Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Program Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. New VSN Members shall not be required to pay a separate initiation fee for the Program; however, they may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the Network to Network Operator in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations. If the purchase of an Interest is not made
526828-22 (6.30.22)
Page 17 of 33

from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Program Member will be cancelled. The New Program Member will also be given possession of the Selling Program Member’s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company’s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within fourteen (14) business days after receipt of written request from any Program Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Program Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Program Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Program Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Program Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> We can but then you would lose some booking advantages because you would not have the exact number of SOs left for another full booking and probably end up losing the remaining SOs.


This is why the 2 year banking is useful. You do have to plan - but should not be in a position where you lose points since you will typically use up your banked points before using current year points. If you know you want a longer stay one year you can save by banking in a prior year.

The exception is if you want home resort bookings in the 8-12 month period - then you are limited to 7 days unless it is a Flex product.


----------



## GregT

timsi said:


> I appreciate it but can't we currently book 10 days  in VSN using Staroptions?


If you only have one week (as in the example), I'm not sure how you do that.   You can't rent StarOptions from others, so somehow you have to stretch your single week to 10 days.  

I agree the system has the functionality, but you don't have enough ownership to do so.   Make sense?

Best,

Greg


----------



## timsi

TravelTime said:


> We can but then you would lose some booking advantages because you would not have the exact number of SOs left for another full booking and probably end up losing the remaining SOs.


@jabberwocky  Indeed a shorter period will inevitably lead to losing more points, possibly a lot more points not just leftovers. Concerning leftovers, when I look at the Marriott chart, there is a higher probability to lose points in Abond because you either have too many points or not enough. In VSN, I can use 81,000 options several years in a row and never lose one option.


----------



## jabberwocky

GregT said:


> If you only have one week, I'm not sure how you do that.   You can't rent StarOptions from others, so somehow you have to stretch your single week to 10 days.
> 
> I agree the system has the functionality, but you don't have enough ownership to do so.   Make sense?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


You can also borrow from a subsequent year - although you have to call in and have paid the following years dues to do so.


----------



## timsi

GregT said:


> If you only have one week (as in the example), I'm not sure how you do that.   You can't rent StarOptions from others, so somehow you have to stretch your single week to 10 days.
> 
> I agree the system has the functionality, but you don't have enough ownership to do so.   Make sense?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


In Vistana you can have  one mandatory and one voluntary to achieve it. The difference is that you do not pay a  premium if you want to link 3 days to another reservation during a busier time of the same season. Abound is really expensive IMO for those that have kids in school.


----------



## CPNY

What if they allow voluntary resales into the VSN/Abound program with a. $3,000 initiation fee?


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> What if they allow voluntary resales into the VSN/Abound program with a. $3,000 initiation fee?


I think you would have to retro. I believe there is a distinction between a “Program Member” (ie those who own Abound points) and “VSN member” (Vistana owners with VSN privileges).  VSN members are not program members based on my reading and would not pay an initiation or junk fee.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> This is why the 2 year banking is useful. You do have to plan - but should not be in a position where you lose points since you will typically use up your banked points before using current year points. If you know you want a longer stay one year you can save by banking in a prior year.
> 
> The exception is if you want home resort bookings in the 8-12 month period - then you are limited to 7 days unless it is a Flex product.



That is not what I meant. In my case, I own WKOVRN OF and get 176k SO. Let’s say I use the 1 BR side and have 81K SOs left and bank them. There is no way I would want to try to use them to get 10 days out of it because it would not equal exactly 81K SOs and I would lose some. And I would not be able to go where I want if I decided to get 10 days out of 81K SOs. This have nothing to do with how long I get to bank.


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> If you only have one week (as in the example), I'm not sure how you do that.   You can't rent StarOptions from others, so somehow you have to stretch your single week to 10 days.
> 
> I agree the system has the functionality, but you don't have enough ownership to do so.   Make sense?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



This is another good point related to the problem I just mentioned. How would I get extra days in exactly the unit size and view type I want with SOs? With Club Points, it is quite easy. I get online and book as many days as I want in the unit size and view type I want. Our like you said, I book with one of my weeks and use points to add a few days. This is not possible with SOs.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> We can but then you would lose some booking advantages because you would not have the exact number of SOs left for another full booking and probably end up losing the remaining SOs because where would you use the remaining SOs?



This is what I’ve done *every year* I’ve owned my WKV week. I plan, so I lose a minor amount every year and I don’t care. Why don’t I care? Because I am still obtaining 20-30 nights for that single week ownership. If I lose 675-3000 SOs a year and still get 20 nights, it makes no impact on my appreciation of the program. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> @jabberwocky  Indeed a shorter period will inevitably lead to losing more points, possibly a lot more points not just leftovers. Concerning leftovers, when I look at the Marriott chart, there is a higher probability to lose points in Abond because you either have too many points or not enough. In VSN, I can use 81,000 options several years in a row and never lose one option.



Yes but how do you use exactly 81K points for 10 nights using SOs?

I do not ever lose Abound points due to the reason you gave above. It is quite easy to figure out how to maximize it and make it work. I never figured it out with SOs.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> That is not what I meant. In my case, I own WKOVRN OF and get 176k SO. Let’s say I use the 1 BR side and have 81K SOs left and bank them. There is no way I would want to try to use them to get 10 days out of it because it would not equal exactly 81K SOs and I would lose some. And I would not be able to go where I want if I decided to get 10 days out of 81K SOs. This have nothing to do with how long I get to bank.


But you could use those 81k in either Y1 or Y2 following and combine with another batch of leftover SO from either of those two years. Note that you have the same issue in MVC if you convert to points. It’s unlikely you will find something that matches your points available exactly. 

With only a single VOI in Vistana it can be more difficult to plan; however, we’ve been owners since 2011 and have not lost a single SO because of expiry. Even over COVID hand having a wack of 120 day RSO.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> What if they allow voluntary resales into the VSN/Abound program with a. $3,000 initiation fee?



I do not think they are going to have this type of program going forward. It would really piss off post-2010 MVC owners who need to pay big bucks to enroll their weeks by buying more points. MVC people were already complaining about this happening. I am sure some MVC owners will be very angry that some Vistana resale owners were treated equivalently to developer purchased weeks.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I do not think they are going to have this type of program going forward. It would really piss off post-2010 MVC owners who need to pay big bucks to enroll their weeks by buying more points. MVC people were already complaining about this happening. I am sure some MVC owners will be very angry that some Vistana resale owners were treated equivalently to developer purchased weeks.


I guess I was reading the procedures wrong and began speculating.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> But you could use those 81k in either Y1 or Y2 following and combine with another batch of leftover SO from either of those two years. Note that you have the same issue in MVC if you convert to points. It’s unlikely you will find something that matches your points available exactly.
> 
> With only a single VOI in Vistana it can be more difficult to plan; however, we’ve been owners since 2011 and have not lost a single SO because of expiry. Even over COVID hand having a wack of 120 day RSO.



As mentioned earlier, one option is to rent Club Points from someone else. So if you have 1000 points left, you can rent 2000 points from someone else (numbers are just an example) and book a week somewhere without having to worry. Many people buy just 1000 points total and always use this strategy.

Another thing is when you bank with points, and you are Presidential or Chairman’s level, the banking period overlaps with the current use year, or you can always bank, and the dates are different. So that means you always have more points coming in to combine with the existing points. No borrowing is needed. It is very simple but you do need status. I am not sure if this is possible with SOs if you own more than 1 week.

For so many reasons, I never found SOs to be flexible and effective. I only own one Vistana week worth 176K points so maybe if you own more weeks and have more SOs, there would be more effective strategies to be sure as to not lose a single SO with booking individual days. I notice you own Westin Flex. Maybe that plus your weeks allow you to effectively book single days?


----------



## timsi

VacationForever said:


> You hate the Abound program so much, why would you even want to pay to join?


The problem with Abound is that unless you are at a certain level of points you are in a bad place. Prime season is very expensive (and if you have kids in school you have little flexibility) and the booking period starts later so you can mostly book the leftovers... if you can afford them. If VSN is drained, a lot of Vistana owners (1 week in average) will be very unhappy with Abound especially since they bought based on the trading options and the Vistana chart.

If one pays few thousands in MF to Vistana, I do not see anything wrong in looking at all the options, including enrolling any resale, if the fee is very reasonable. If I enrolled everything I would be presidential and had I not sold a week I would actually be chairman. There is also the option of reducing the Vistana ownership, which is where I may be heading. I have considered for a while replacing some Vistana with HGVC but I want to see how things turn out with this circus.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Could this mean there is an initiation “junk fee” for mandatory resales going forward? This will allow resales to be brought back into the abound program or possibly voluntary resales also, Thoughts?
> 
> 
> VSN Members. For so long as the VSN Affiliation Agreement remains in effect, VSN Members in good standing shall be permitted to participate in the Program as a benefit of their membership in the Network. No Exchange Company Dues (beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network) shall be payable to Exchange Company by VSN Members.
> 
> Effect of Transfer of Program Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Program Member (“Selling Program Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Program Member’s Interest to another party (“New Program Member”), the Selling Program Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. *Each New Program Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Program Member is a Family Member of the Selling Program Member. The current initiation fee is $750 per Interest with a $3,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole discretion. *Exchange Company will, within fourteen (14) business days of receipt from a New Program Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Program Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Program Member to a New Program Member. Further, with respect to Direct Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Program Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Program Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. New VSN Members shall not be required to pay a separate initiation fee for the Program; however, they may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the Network to Network Operator in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations. If the purchase of an Interest is not made
> 526828-22 (6.30.22)
> Page 17 of 33
> 
> from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Program Member will be cancelled. The New Program Member will also be given possession of the Selling Program Member’s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company’s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within fourteen (14) business days after receipt of written request from any Program Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Program Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Program Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Program Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Program Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.






CPNY said:


> What if they allow voluntary resales into the VSN/Abound program with a. $3,000 initiation fee?




In the MVC points world an Interest is a chunk of 250 DC Trust points.  This is basically where the $3/point junk fee comes from. But, if this meant what you suggest it means, that would imply an enrollment fee of $3000 per 1000 points. So about $19K to enroll a Maui IV/OV week.

I also specifies that "If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid." - so basically, who knows?


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Could this mean there is an initiation “junk fee” for mandatory resales going forward? This will allow resales to be brought back into the abound program or possibly voluntary resales also, Thoughts?
> 
> 
> VSN Members. For so long as the VSN Affiliation Agreement remains in effect, VSN Members in good standing shall be permitted to participate in the Program as a benefit of their membership in the Network. No Exchange Company Dues (beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network) shall be payable to Exchange Company by VSN Members.
> 
> Effect of Transfer of Program Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Program Member (“Selling Program Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Program Member’s Interest to another party (“New Program Member”), the Selling Program Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. *Each New Program Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Program Member is a Family Member of the Selling Program Member. The current initiation fee is $750 per Interest with a $3,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole discretion. *Exchange Company will, within fourteen (14) business days of receipt from a New Program Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Program Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Program Member to a New Program Member. Further, with respect to Direct Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Program Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Program Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. New VSN Members shall not be required to pay a separate initiation fee for the Program; however, they may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the Network to Network Operator in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations. If the purchase of an Interest is not made
> 526828-22 (6.30.22)
> Page 17 of 33
> 
> from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Program Member will be cancelled. The New Program Member will also be given possession of the Selling Program Member’s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company’s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within fourteen (14) business days after receipt of written request from any Program Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Program Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Program Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Program Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Program Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.



The text you bolded above is the exact same text that has been in the MVC Destination Club T&C's since 2010. What that refers to is when a *MVC/Abound Trust Owner *(i.e.- someone who has bought Trust Points from  MVC or on resale) sells their interest (*i.e. they sell their beneficial interests in the MVC Trust to a third party*), the new buyer has to pay a $3/point "initiation fee" to fully participate in the benefits and privileges of being a Trust/DC/Abound member. (Each interest in the Trust is 250 points, so $3/point = $750 per interest with a $3,000 minimum). That's why, when MVC owners see a $3.75/point listing on eBay for Trust Points, they know the REAL price is $6.75, because you need to add the $3/point "junk fees" to the price you pay the seller. *This has NO impact on deeded weeks owners. *Deeded week ownership does not constitute an ownership of *any *beneficial interests in the Abound Trust. They own a week at a resort that they have the ability to elect for Abound points by depositing their week into the Abound Exchange Company. They are NOT Trust owners. The fees you highlighted are the regular junk fees we have dealt with for 12 years for *Trust resales.*


----------



## DanCali

ndang3 said:


> Does anyone know if we can see availability in Abound before electing? For example if I’m interested in booking something within the next use year which happens to be within the 12 months on election deadline, my decision to elect or not would be dependent upon availability.



You can only see availability within the booking window (13 months for most MVC resorts in my case). Probably why they didn't like that Vistana had more transparency and asked them to take that feature down.

You get more detail when you have the points in the account. You can "sort of" see availability if you don't have the points in the account. It will show you the least expensive unit available to book if it's available. So, for example, if I am looking for a studio at Ocean Pointe I can see that Ocean Side view is available on certain dates. But I can't tell if Ocean Front is available unless I actually have the points (or unless it's the least expensive thing to book).





If I change that search for 1 night and I have the points, then I get much more detail:


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> This is why the 2 year banking is useful.


I think you mean was useful.

Anywho, I just realized this may not be as bad as everyone is thinking. Hopefully,  I can communicate this clearly.

With the 2 year banking, say I want to bank 81k points in 2022 and pay the fee. These are now good until 2024. In 2023, I want to use my 81k points. However, I book 2023 points because my 2022 points are good until 2024 and I would have to pay a fee to bank 2023 pounts. The system automatically selects points this way. So, now I have to use the 2022 points in 2024.

With 1 year banking, I use my 2022 points in 2023, with no fee. I then bank my 2023 at no additional cost and use them in 2024.

I suppose if you want to save all of your points and use them in the third year, you are out of luck with the new plan. However, you could transfer your points to Abound and sell them. You could use this money to buy points in 2 years. Not a perfect solution, but I'd guess it is rare that someone specifically wants to save up to take a trip in two years. Of course, with Abound, we have the option to buy points from others to simply take the third year trip if we want.

2 year banking is better, no doubt. However this is at least somewhat being offset by other advantages.


----------



## MICROZE

VacationForever said:


> Your profile says Kierland, if it is the timeshare that they are telling you to buy something to re-qualify, then the salesperson is lying.


If they are lying, I have been lied to multiple times.

At multiple presentations [both by Marriott as well as Vistana] this [need to purchase to "Enroll"] is exactly what I was told.
If a purchase was made in the last year [not sure how far back] it will count and I will be automatically enrolled.
In addition I was told very clearly that any resale [Voluntary or Mandatory] would need to be retroed in order to be exchanged [or considered for status] in Abound.

I have printed copies clearly showing that Mandatory-Resales [NOT-Retroed] are NOT included in the Total-Point-Count.
I also have examples whereby Mandatory-Resales [Retroed] are included in the Total-Point-Count.

The confusion arises from the word *"Enroll"*. If it has a "N" it means it is not eligible. If it has a "Y" it means it is "Eligible".
The next column is *"Enroll Eligible"*. This column "Y" only means that the unit [if Mandatory Resale] is "Eligible" and can be "Enrolled" with a retro.

Please refer to POST-#255 from Teddy for an example. *"Owner Benefit Level [OBL]"* = BLANK, *"Points To Calc OBL"*= ZERO, *"Total NON Enroll Points"* = 11650.
Then see POST-#284 from me for a comparison.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> As mentioned earlier, one option is to rent Club Points from someone else. So if you have 1000 points left, you can rent 2000 points from someone else (numbers are just an example) and book a week somewhere without having to worry. Many people buy just 1000 points total and always use this strategy.
> 
> Another thing is when you bank with points, and you are Presidential or Chairman’s level, the banking period overlaps with the current use year, or you can always bank, and the dates are different. So that means you always have more points coming in to combine with the existing points. No borrowing is needed. It is very simple but you do need status. I am not sure if this is possible with SOs if you own more than 1 week.
> 
> For so many reasons, I never found SOs to be flexible and effective. I only own one Vistana week worth 176K points so maybe if you own more weeks and have more SOs, there would be more effective strategies to be sure as to not lose a single SO with booking individual days. I notice you own Westin Flex. Maybe that plus your weeks allow you to effectively book single days?


I think for any system to be effective you almost have to have a high enough status level or points, or alternatively weeks. We own enough in Vistana that I’m able to move things around.

Usually I would use our Flex (EOY) to add on 3-4 days in a 2 BR after our WKORVN stay (downside is there is no OF in Flex, so I have to switch rooms). The flex contract is 67,100 EOY odd.

Just as an example. This year, we used our 2BR WKORVN (also EOY odd) week to book next July 1-8. We then booked July 1-7 (6 nights) in a 1BR OV using the flex package. The plan is for us to stay in the 2BR with my BIL and his wife in the 1BR OV (could have also done 1week in a studio but they have to get back and prefer the 1BR)

We then had 2300 SO left over from our Flex contract.  Made an 8 night reservation at Lagunamar for Spring break next March.  The cost of that is 177,725 SO. It is being funded using the 2300 leftover Flex, the balance of our banked SO that expire in 2023 (from 2021) which is 27,375. the remainder (148,050) has come from points banked until 2024.

So for 2023 I now have 162,050 points available. 81,000 from our SVR (I’ll probably bank) and 81,050 which is banked and expires in 2024.

I could see where renting changed the calculus a bit and allows you to purchase less, but the value I get from a SO reservation is so much more than it would be using points.


----------



## jabberwocky

remowidget said:


> I think you mean was useful.
> 
> Anywho, I just realized this may not be as bad as everyone is thinking. Hopefully,  I can communicate this clearly.
> 
> With the 2 year banking, say I want to bank 81k points in 2022 and pay the fee. These are now good until 2024. In 2023, I want to use my 81k points. However, I book 2023 points because my 2022 points are good until 2024 and I would have to pay a fee to bank 2023 pounts. The system automatically selects points this way. So, now I have to use the 2022 points in 2024.
> 
> With 1 year banking, I use my 2022 points in 2023, with no fee. I then bank my 2023 at no additional cost and use them in 2024.
> 
> I suppose if you want to save all of your points and use them in the third year, you are out of luck with the new plan. However, you could transfer your points to Abound and sell them. You could use this money to buy points in 2 years. Not a perfect solution, but I'd guess it is rare that someone specifically wants to save up to take a trip in two years. Of course, with Abound, we have the option to buy points from others to simply take the third year trip if we want.
> 
> 2 year banking is better, no doubt. However this is at least somewhat being offset by other advantages.


But with the increased fee it’s basically a wash unless you have lots of other fees you’re saving on like HK and II trades. For us the only “extra” fee we’ve ever paid has been our banking fee. So I’m not really viewing it as “free” banking.

I do get your overall point, but I don’t think it’s too rare for people to save up a couple or three years worth of points to go somewhere, particularly those who bought too small to start. Before we bought our Hawaii week we had to essentially save up three years worth of our SVR 81,000 point weeks to stay at WKORVN for 8 nights using SO.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> I am wondering how they know which accounts we have with MVC and which are with Vistana? Even if they can match contract names, would there be a high error rate?
> 
> What if there are two owners on contracts and one is primary with MVC and one is primary with Vistana but the same two owners. I have always been told by Marriott when I call in that they recognize both me and my husband as equal owners and that they know this by looking in their system.
> 
> Just in case, I hope I have the primary owners the same on both my MVC and my Vistana contracts because I think it would easier for Marriott to match up my contracts. I need to check.


We own with Marriot as well as Vistana.

I am primary on Marriott and wife is primary on Vistana.
They showed me a combined print-out showing all my Vistana-Contracts as well as Marriott-Contracts on the same page.


----------



## MICROZE

Jimmyboy said:


> If you bought Kierland prior to 8/8 this year you are in and have been enrolled in VSN you are should be in.


Please check POST-#255. Kierland-Resale prior to 8/8 does NOT count toward Status or Abound-Points.
Then check POST-#284. Kierland-Resale [RETROED] prior to 8/8.

Both hard-copies provided from Marriott & Vistana.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Maybe that plus your weeks allow you to effectively book single days?





Ken555 said:


> This is what I’ve done *every year* I’ve owned my WKV week. I plan, so I lose a minor amount every year and I don’t care. Why don’t I care? Because I am still obtaining 20-30 nights for that single week ownership. If I lose 675-3000 SOs a year and still get 20 nights, it makes no impact on my appreciation of the program.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Some years I use up those stranded options by borrowing from the next year for a longer stay, but I am ok with a few of them stranded.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> Please check POST-#255.
> Kierland-Resale prior to 8/8 does not count toward Status or Abound-Points.


Do you mean this post #255?  To me it’s pretty clear that the Westin Kierland is in. If you add up the total of the weeks in VSN (ie have SO) you get 11,650 which is what they are reporting as being told they would have. If I’m adding correctly if they retroed the voluntary weeks they would increase by an extra 11,975. 

Maybe I’m missing something?


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> Do you mean this post #255?  To me it’s pretty clear that the Westin Kierland is in. If you add up the total of the weeks in VSN (ie have SO) you get 11,650 which is what they are reporting as being told they would have. If I’m adding correctly if they retroed the voluntary weeks they would increase by an extra 11,975.
> 
> Maybe I’m missing something?


In Post-#255, this is what I am referring to.
All the Mandotory-Contracts [RESALE add up to 11650] are *"Eligible"* to be "Enrolled" with a "Y". 
*NON*-Enrolled Points = 11650.
Points to calculate OBL = *ZERO*.

Then see POST-#284 for Kierland-Resales [all Retroed] for a comparison.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> In Post-#255, this is what I am referring to.
> All the Mandotory-Contracts [RESALE add up to 11650] are *"Eligible"* to be "Enrolled" with a "Y".
> *NON*-Enrolled Points = 11650.
> Points to calculate OBL = *ZERO*.
> 
> Then see POST-#284 for Kierland-Resales [all Retroed] for a comparison.
> 
> View attachment 63617


I’m using my sheet from mid-July which has a non-retroed WKORVN OF week. It shows our mandatory resale as having a VSN Enroll flag of Y and our total non enroll pts are zero.  I don’t see why mandatory resale weeks at WKV would be treated differently.

Keep in mind the sheet in post 255 is from April and would have been shortly after the Vistana inventory was loaded into the combined sales system (March 28).  It could be they had not cleaned the database yet, or later decided to give everyone in VSN enrollment in Abound.

It’s clear to me that your sheet proves retroed mandatory are enrolled. It does not prove that non-retroed mandatory are not enrolled.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> I am wondering how they know which accounts we have with MVC and which are with Vistana? Even if they can match contract names, would there be a high error rate?
> 
> What if there are two owners on contracts and one is primary with MVC and one is primary with Vistana but the same two owners. I have always been told by Marriott when I call in that they recognize both me and my husband as equal owners and that they know this by looking in their system.
> 
> Just in case, I hope I have the primary owners the same on both my MVC and my Vistana contracts because I think it would easier for Marriott to match up my contracts. I need to check.



The Profile Report that they can print out has a field called “OTM Cust Code”. I believe this is the identifier used by the Marriott system. There is also a field “VSE Cust Code”. This is your Vistana identifier.

It would be pretty easy to run a query that will give you a match on names and postal codes or addresses. They can then easily link the two together.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> @jabberwocky  Indeed a shorter period will inevitably lead to losing more points, possibly a lot more points not just leftovers. Concerning leftovers, when I look at the Marriott chart, there is a higher probability to lose points in Abond because you either have too many points or not enough. In VSN, I can use 81,000 options several years in a row and never lose one option.


I don't like the change to banking ability, but let's make sure everything is clear.  You can bank for at least one full year (depending on your status level) - that means you'd always be able to use your banked points in the following year, before using up any of that existing year's points.  The only reason this increases probability to lose points is if you don't vacation at all during one year AND you vacationed so little in the previous year you had to bank.  Keep in mind you may also BORROW StarOptions from a future year if you find yourself short on points in any given year (and strategicially, borrowing can be used to minimize any chance of points "breakage").


----------



## Grandma2016

MICROZE said:


> If they are lying, I have been lied to multiple times.
> 
> At multiple presentations [both by Marriott as well as Vistana] this [need to purchase to "Enroll"] is exactly what I was told.
> If a purchase was made in the last year [not sure how far back] it will count and I will be automatically enrolled.
> In addition I was told very clearly that any resale [Voluntary or Mandatory] would need to be retroed in order to be exchanged [or considered for status] in Abound.
> 
> I have printed copies clearly showing that Mandatory-Resales [NOT-Retroed] are NOT included in the Total-Point-Count.
> I also have examples whereby Mandatory-Resales [Retroed] are included in the Total-Point-Count.
> 
> The confusion arises from the word *"Enroll"*. If it has a "N" it means it is not eligible. If it has a "Y" it means it is "Eligible".
> The next column is *"Enroll Eligible"*. This column "Y" only means that the unit [if Mandatory Resale] is "Eligible" and can be "Enrolled" with a retro.
> 
> Please refer to POST-#255 from Teddy for an example. *"Owner Benefit Level [OBL]"* = BLANK, *"Points To Calc OBL"*= ZERO, *"Total NON Enroll Points"* = 11650.
> Then see POST-#284 from me for a comparison.


I am not sure about this.  My paper with my ownerships from our update early this month lists everything as yes even the 3 week 52s that are not retroed.  They are all mandatory.  Our club points total of 57k includes everything.  ???


----------



## Grandma2016

CPNY said:


> I’d say probably not but that doesn’t mean you can’t ask someone who owns DC points already to check for you


I need a Marriott friend who can do this for me


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> The text you bolded above is the exact same text that has been in the MVC Destination Club T&C's since 2010. What that refers to is when a *MVC/Abound Trust Owner *(i.e.- someone who has bought Trust Points from  MVC or on resale) sells their interest (*i.e. they sell their beneficial interests in the MVC Trust to a third party*), the new buyer has to pay a $3/point "initiation fee" to fully participate in the benefits and privileges of being a Trust/DC/Abound member. (Each interest in the Trust is 250 points, so $3/point = $750 per interest with a $3,000 minimum). That's why, when MVC owners see a $3.75/point listing on eBay for Trust Points, they know the REAL price is $6.75, because you need to add the $3/point "junk fees" to the price you pay the seller. *This has NO impact on deeded weeks owners. *Deeded week ownership does not constitute an ownership of *any *beneficial interests in the Abound Trust. They own a week at a resort that they have the ability to elect for Abound points by depositing their week into the Abound Exchange Company. They are NOT Trust owners. The fees you highlighted are the regular junk fees we have dealt with for 12 years for *Trust resales.*


Thanks, I was thinking it was something new specific to the abound program but it was pointed out that that part is referring to DC point owners which makes sense.


----------



## capjak

VacationForever said:


> Your profile says Kierland, if it is the timeshare that they are telling you to buy something to re-qualify, then the salesperson is lying.


Very confusing......It would be a downer if ABOUND definition of "enrolled" is that the unit was "requalified" and has nothing to do with VSN mandatory or non-mandatory.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> We own with Marriot as well as Vistana.
> 
> I am primary on Marriott and wife is primary on Vistana.
> They showed me a combined print-out showing all my Vistana-Contracts as well as Marriott-Contracts on the same page.



Great, so they have you already set to go. I just checked my contracts and my husband is primary on all of them. But, like you, I do remember they showed me a print out with my Vistana contract too. I had forgotten about that. It is really amazing that they were able to merge everyone.


----------



## JIMinNC

jabberwocky said:


> You can also borrow from a subsequent year - although you have to call in and have paid the following years dues to do so.



In the current DC, and as far as I know it will still be the same in Abound, you do not have to pay the following years dues in order to borrow points. In fact, if you try to make a reservation that requires more points than you have, the system will automatically borrow the points for you as part of the booking transaction.


----------



## jabberwocky

JIMinNC said:


> In the current DC, and as far as I know it will still be the same in Abound, you do not have to pay the following years dues in order to borrow points. In fact, if you try to make a reservation that requires more points than you have, the system will automatically borrow the points for you as part of the booking transaction.


I like that - it’s similar to how HGVC runs their borrowing. That seems to been pretty seamless.


----------



## echino

I own a few resale mandatory weeks, if I add up all of them it gets me to Presidential.

Quick question: do I need to elect those weeks for Abound points to actually get Presidential? Or am I automatically Presidential just by owning them, and can use those weeks as Home Resort Reservations, and still be Presidential?


----------



## JIMinNC

echino said:


> I own a few resale mandatory weeks, if I add up all of them it gets me to Presidential.
> 
> Quick question: do I need to elect those weeks for Abound points to actually get Presidential? Or am I automatically Presidential just by owning them, and can use those weeks as Home Resort Reservations, and still be Presidential?


You do not need to actually elect. The election *value *is what counts for status.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I’m using my sheet from mid-July which has a non-retroed WKORVN OF week. It shows our mandatory resale as having a VSN Enroll flag of Y and our total non enroll pts are zero.  I don’t see why mandatory resale weeks at WKV would be treated differently.
> 
> Keep in mind the sheet in post 255 is from April and would have been shortly after the Vistana inventory was loaded into the combined sales system (March 28).  It could be they had not cleaned the database yet, or later decided to give everyone in VSN enrollment in Abound.
> 
> It’s clear to me that your sheet proves retroed mandatory are enrolled. It does not prove that non-retroed mandatory are not enrolled.


Do we know for sure what the columns VSE Enroll and VSE Enroll Eligible are meant to indicate? It's not obvious from their names. Besides speculation, has it been definitively determined what they mean as far as Abound eligibility? If only they had labeled them with the words Abound or MVCD if that is what they pertain to. My sheet from June shows a Y in both of those columns for my two developer purchased Flex contracts and 0 points for non-enroll points and 0 points towards OBL calc.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Maybe this is off base but that column say VSE Enroll Eligible, not Abound or MVCD Enroll Eligible. Is it possible that that column is just indicating which ownership are eligible to enroll in the VSN which of course all the mandatory show Y for  and all the voluntary ones show N? How do we know for sure that this column is the one that indicates Abound eligibility? Still feels like speculation.


Great question. I’m basing this off of how they have defined eligibility in the FAQ.

First, it is clear that if you are a member of VSN with and eligible VOI then you can elect to receive Abound points.




dioxide45 said:


> If you are currently a member of VSN with eligible VOIs all you will need to do in order to receive Club Points to use for vacations at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or one of the thousands of vacation experience options available through Abound, is elect to receive Club Points by the associated deadline each year. Electing to receive Club Points does not happen automatically and is optional.



Looking at the definition of of Eligible it states:



dioxide45 said:


> Eligible VOIs:
> 
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were *enrolled in VSN* prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.



So my take is that the VSE Enroll column being “Y” indicates that it is enrolled within VSN for the purposes to electing Abound points. This aligns with what I’ve been told in sales as well as my elected points total.

Edited to add:

Sorry. I reread your post and realized I didn’t address the VSE Eligible column. My take is that VSE Eligible will be N if it is a voluntary resale VOI. If it is a resale mandatory (or developer purchase) and has StarOptions that column will be Y.

To elect into Abound I think you need both the VSE Enrolled and VSE Eligible columns to be Y. If only Eligible is Y you have StarOptions, but not Abound conversion.

Hopefully that makes sense.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Great question. I’m basing this off of how they have defined eligibility in the FAQ.
> 
> First, it is clear that if you are a member of VSN with and eligible VOI then you can elect to receive Abound points.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the definition of of Eligible it states:
> 
> 
> 
> So my take is that the VSE Enroll column being “Y” indicates that it is enrolled within VSN for the purposes to electing Abound points. This aligns with what I’ve been told in sales as well as my elected points total.


I see where you're coming from but the difference in wording between those two eligibility categories cast some degree of doubt IMHO on whether the second one is directly eligible or will be eligible with some type of enrollment fee or other action. I know one member here is trying to get direct guidance from MVW on this so we may have an answer soon or we may not.

One interesting passage near the bottom of the Abound Exchanges Procedures excerpt CPNY posted earlier said that new VSN members would not be charged an initiation fee by the Program (Abound) but they could be charged one by the Network to Network Operator which has been defined in either this document or the VSN Rules and Regulations as being the VSN. So it's possible that there might be some fee payable to Vistana for resales to become eligible for Abound rather than payable to Abound/Marriott itself. The language did not define what a new VSN member is as to whether they were new to VSN or just new to Abound.


----------



## cubigbird

So how is Abound going to handle the Westin Resort and Spa Cancun?


----------



## SpartanHoop1

I have been digging and digging trying to figure this out.   I have multiple mandatory resale units at Key West.  Will I be able to trade the new Marriott network?


----------



## jabberwocky

SpartanHoop1 said:


> I have been digging and digging trying to figure this out.   I have multiple mandatory resale units at Key West.  Will I be able to trade the new Marriott network?


Assuming you owned them prior to 8/9 if this year you should be able to elect them into Abound when the system opens.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

SpartanHoop1 said:


> I have been digging and digging trying to figure this out.   I have multiple mandatory resale units at Key West.  Will I be able to trade the new Marriott network?


We won't find out for sure until it's live. We attended a presentation yesterday and were told our mandatory resale Kierland wasn't in unless we purchased something for $10, 000. Supposedly voluntary resales aren't eligible  but this is sales so , who knows


----------



## remowidget

...


cubigbird said:


> So how is Abound going to handle the Westin Resort and Spa Cancun?


I think they will sell time there as Abound points.


----------



## GrayFal

kozykritter said:


> I see where you're coming from but the difference in wording between those two eligibility categories cast some degree of doubt IMHO on whether the second one is directly eligible or will be eligible with some type of enrollment fee or other action. I know one member here is trying to get direct guidance from MVW on this so we may have an answer soon or we may not.
> 
> One interesting passage near the bottom of the Abound Exchanges Procedures excerpt CPNY posted earlier said that new VSN members would not be charged an initiation fee by the Program (Abound) but they could be charged one by the Network to Network Operator which has been defined in either this document or the VSN Rules and Regulations as being the VSN. So it's possible that there might be some fee payable to Vistana for resales to become eligible for Abound rather than payable to Abound/Marriott itself. The language did not define what a new VSN member is as to whether they were new to VSN or just new to Abound.


The initiation fee @CPNY referenced has to do with the “junk” fee Marriott charges to allow resale DC points to fully participate in the DC…..

Nothing to do with the Abound program


----------



## cubigbird

remowidget said:


> ...
> 
> I think they will sell time there as Abound points.



I don't think the Westin Spa & Resort Cancun has completed its transformation construction from hotel to timeshare.  That would be interesting since Aventuras has not sold out.  Technically that would create 2 pools of Mexico inventory - the existing Aventuras with a 12 month reservation window and Abound with a 13 month reservation window.


----------



## Helios

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We won't find out for sure until it's live. We attended a presentation yesterday and were told our mandatory resale Kierland wasn't in unless we purchased something for $10, 000. Supposedly voluntary resales aren't eligible  but this is sales so , who knows


This is what i heard too.


----------



## remowidget

echino said:


> I own a few resale mandatory weeks, if I add up all of them it gets me to Presidential.
> 
> Quick question: do I need to elect those weeks for Abound points to actually get Presidential? Or am I automatically Presidential just by owning them, and can use those weeks as Home Resort Reservations, and still be Presidential?


Do you get status in Vistana?


----------



## DanCali

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We won't find out for sure until it's live. We attended a presentation yesterday and were told our mandatory resale Kierland wasn't in unless we purchased something for $10, 000. Supposedly voluntary resales aren't eligible  but this is sales so , who knows




Where did you attend this sales presentation?

We really don't know for sure about mandatory resales yet, but if they are allowed in then some of these salespeople should be called out on here if it turns out they lied. If I ever was assigned one of them, I would stop the meeting and demand that the manager assign me someone else.


----------



## timsi

cubigbird said:


> I don't think the Westin Spa & Resort Cancun has completed its transformation construction from hotel to timeshare.  That would be interesting since Aventuras has not sold out.  Technically that would create 2 pools of Mexico inventory - the existing Aventuras with a 12 month reservation window and Abound with a 13 month reservation window.


Please do not give them ideas how to make a complicated thing more complicated, they are already experts at it.


----------



## remowidget

cubigbird said:


> I don't think the Westin Spa & Resort Cancun has completed its transformation construction from hotel to timeshare.  That would be interesting since Aventuras has not sold out.  Technically that would create 2 pools of Mexico inventory - the existing Aventuras with a 12 month reservation window and Abound with a 13 month reservation window.


I would think it would be one or the other. Either they will continue to sell Aventuras because it is in a foreign country, like they seem to do with non-US MVC properties, or they will simply transfer everything leftover to Abound and stop selling Aventuras. 

Has any of the Vistana properties started selling MVC or Abound?

I remember being told future Mexican properties would be in Aventuras.  I wonder if that was written anywhere or just salespeak.


----------



## cubigbird

remowidget said:


> I would think it would be one or the other. Either they will continue to sell Aventuras because it is in a foreign country, like they seem to do with non-US MVC properties, or they will simply transfer everything leftover to Abound and stop selling Aventuras



You’re probably right now that I think about the other foreign properties.  I would like to see the completion of that Westin Resort & Spa Cancún to see some more inventory come online.  I have never heard any word of any Mexico additional properties to be built or developed.  I know the Westin Puerto Vallarta was sold not too long ago.


----------



## kozykritter

GrayFal said:


> The initiation fee @CPNY referenced has to do with the “junk” fee Marriott charges to allow resale DC points to fully participate in the DC…..
> 
> Nothing to do with the Abound program


My message had nothing to do with what he said in his post. I was saying that actually at the end of all of the excerpts that he quoted was a section that he wasn't referencing that gave VSN the power to charge an enrollment fee. Go ahead and give it a reread....

"New VSN Members shall not be required to pay a separate initiation fee for the Program; however, they may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the Network to Network Operator in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations." 

As defined by the document it was in, Program means Abound and network to network operator is VSN. What hasn't been defined is what is a new member, meaning new to the VSN or just new to Abound. Just something to think about.


----------



## timsi

kozykritter said:


> "New VSN Members shall not be required to pay a separate initiation fee for the Program; however, they may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the Network to Network Operator in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations."


They are probably preparing us for junk fees in the future for the mandatory resale after 8/9 : you can play in VSN but if you want Abound you have to pay a Network to Network Operator fee.


----------



## pchung6

Helios said:


> This is what i heard too.


I attended meeting 2 days ago. They tried to sell flex points to retro my voluntary SBP for $10k. They didn’t confirm mandatory will be in or not. We asked to retro Ko Olina resale instead, they said they can only retro Vistana. They didn’t mention too much about Abound, probably they took notes last month in the meeting in Palm Springs when i expressed we do not like anything from Marriott and I really miss SPG.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

DanCali said:


> Where did you attend this sales presentation?
> 
> We really don't know for sure about mandatory resales yet, but if they are allowed in then some of these salespeople should be called out on here if it turns out they lied. If I ever was assigned one of them, I would stop the meeting and demand that the manager assign me someone else.


The presentation was atLagunamar. If I knew for sure they were incorrect I would call them on it but the wording is so ambiguous.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

Helios said:


> This is what i heard too.


Where was your presentation?


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> They are probably preparing us for junk fees in the future for the mandatory resale after 8/9 : you can play in VSN but if you want Abound you have to pay a Network to Network Operator fee.


You’re thinking too small! They won’t just want a few hundred or even a few thousands for enrollment junk fees. They’ll want you to buy a minimum number of points or another week just like they do with MVC currently.

In short they are probably thinking an order of magnitude higher when it comes to separating you from your cash.


----------



## jabberwocky

Tucsonadventurer said:


> The presentation was atLagunamar. If I knew for sure they were incorrect I would call them on it but the wording is so ambiguous.


Probably best not to argue with them. They often mistake it for interest and try to hold onto you in the presentation. If they sense you’re not interested they’ll cut you loose pretty quick.


----------



## Covid hater

Sorry, but I'm a little slow and confused-If I  opt in to participating in Abound does that mean I am automatically converting my ownerships weeks to Abound points or is converting to Abound point a separate transaction to be done every year?  Do you just get 1 shot on being in the Abound program?


----------



## pchung6

No it is annual selection.


----------



## jabberwocky

While the details aren’t clear and there is some disagreement on whether a fee is necessary for mandatory resales, it sounds like it will be a two step process.

1. if you are currently in VSN, you will switch to the new Abound system and pay the higher level fee, but you won’t have other transaction fees for II exchanges, banking etc. you would not have to “opt-in” as the conversion is automatic. You still retain your week and can book using SO.

2. if you are in abound, you can make an annual election to convert your week into points instead of using SO or a home resort reservation. This is not a permanent election and must be done each year.

it sounds like if you do not want to participate in Abound and retain the existing fee structure (and presumably banking deadlines) then you can opt-out of being included in Abound.Could you join at a later date?  Who know - but they would likely charge some sort of fee or require a developer purchase.


----------



## EasyGoer

If you are a Vistana owner as my wife and me, I'm with you in getting up to speed with this whole Abound business. We have been exclusive Vistana owners for 18 years and I feel fairly well versed with the in's and out's of the Vistana program. Here's what I know in regards to your question:

1. If you were a Vistana owner prior to 8/8/22, your qualified/unqualified mandatory/voluntary ownership weeks and/or Flex ownership points gives you participation rights in the new Abound exchange program.

2. Your election to convert your Vistana ownership interest to DC Club points (Marriott's term) is not automatic and you decide each year if you want to convert to DC points and use them to secure vacation days/weeks at Marriott resorts that are available.

3. I know very little about the Marriott Vacation Club other than what I have learned on TUG which is why I joined. The Tugger group here are very knowledgeable and willing to share what they have learned which I appreciate.

4. A bit of unsolicited advice: If you are not as informed as you would like to be about the Abound program, I would advise NOT converting your Vistana ownership to DC points immediately coming out of the gate. Wait a year and see. The old adage "when in doubt, don't" probably applies.

Best Wishes!


----------



## VacationForever

EasyGoer said:


> If you are a Vistana owner as my wife and me, I'm with you in getting up to speed with this whole Abound business. We have been exclusive Vistana owners for 18 years and I feel fairly well versed with the in's and out's of the Vistana program. Here's what I know in regards to your question:
> 
> 1. If you were a Vistana owner prior to 8/8/22, your qualified/unqualified mandatory/voluntary ownership weeks and/or Flex ownership points gives you participation rights in the new Abound exchange program.
> 
> Best Wishes!


(1) is not correct.  The verbiage is that if your VOI was already in VSN as of 8/8/22, you may participate in Abound, but whether there is an enrollment fee remains to be seen.  If it wasn't in VSN as of 8/8/22, then it is out. Voluntary resorts which were not in VSN are not eligible.


----------



## MICROZE

DanCali said:


> Where did you attend this sales presentation?
> 
> We really don't know for sure about mandatory resales yet, but if they are allowed in then some of these salespeople should be called out on here if it turns out they lied. If I ever was assigned one of them, I would stop the meeting and demand that the manager assign me someone else.


Since the soft rollout, I have attended 5 sales presentations [Marriott + Vistana]: Cancun [Mar], Vegas [Apr], Park City [Jun], Costa Rica [Jul], Maui [Aug-22]. 6th one at Waikoloa [Aug-30].
Every one of the 5 confirmed that I would need to retro my Vistana-Resales in order for them to qualify for Abound participation as well as Marriott-Status.
If they are lying, they are very consistent.

Prior to the soft rollout, I personally met with people from Marriott [Newport Coast: People I have known for over a decade and trust] and everything they mentioned last year has turned out to be accurate. The only thing they missed was the rollout date which keeps moving.
They were very clear. Vistana owners will "have to pay to play".
I personally don't think there will be an Enrollment-Fee for Vistana-Owners [Developer or Retro-Contracts].
For resales [Voluntary as well as Mandatory] to participate [and count toward status], they would need to be retroed first.

*Vistana-Retro*: The best offer was from Vistana: $10K for 1-Contract followed by $5K for each additional contract. E.g. Qualifying 5 x Resale-Contracts cost $30K.
With Vistana, one could retro 5-WKV x 2BR-EY-PLAT+ contracts [148100 x5 = 740500-SO] and qualify for 5-STAR-Elite as well as Chairmans-Club [4050 x 5 = 20250-DP].

*Marriott-retro*: With Marriott the cost to retro is much higher. Can't remember the exact details. However, it was ~$30K to retro a single contract.
The offer was a little better for multiple. However, to retro 5 x Contracts and get to Chairmans-Club would be upwards of $60K.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> You’re thinking too small! They won’t just want a few hundred or even a few thousands for enrollment junk fees. *They’ll want you to buy a minimum number of points or another week just like they do with MVC currently.*
> 
> In short they are probably thinking an order of magnitude higher when it comes to separating you from your cash.


I think your *comment* is spot-on. This is exactly what they seem to be targetting.


----------



## Covid hater

Thank you everyone


----------



## Grandma2016

If a person owns multiple Vistana weeks we can pick to chose only 1 week to convert or is it an all or nothing choice?


----------



## jabberwocky

Grandma2016 said:


> If a person owns multiple Vistana weeks we can pick to chose only 1 week to convert or is it an all or nothing choice?


You can choose an individual VOI (ignoring Flex for the moment). But you can’t split up a lock-off and convert only half like you can with Vistana SO - both sides need to go in as a single unit.


----------



## The Colorado Kid

EasyGoer said:


> If you are a Vistana owner as my wife and me, I'm with you in getting up to speed with this whole Abound business. We have been exclusive Vistana owners for 18 years and I feel fairly well versed with the in's and out's of the Vistana program. Here's what I know in regards to your question:
> 
> 1. If you were a Vistana owner prior to 8/8/22, your qualified/unqualified mandatory/voluntary ownership weeks and/or Flex ownership points gives you participation rights in the new Abound exchange program.
> 
> 2. Your election to convert your Vistana ownership interest to DC Club points (Marriott's term) is not automatic and you decide each year if you want to convert to DC points and use them to secure vacation days/weeks at Marriott resorts that are available.
> 
> 3. I know very little about the Marriott Vacation Club other than what I have learned on TUG which is why I joined. The Tugger group here are very knowledgeable and willing to share what they have learned which I appreciate.
> 
> 4. A bit of unsolicited advice: If you are not as informed as you would like to be about the Abound program, I would advise NOT converting your Vistana ownership to DC points immediately coming out of the gate. Wait a year and see. The old adage "when in doubt, don't" probably applies.
> 
> Best Wishes!


@EasyGoer thanks for laying this out as this is our strategy as well.  What I don't know yet as I haven't steeled myself sufficiently to read all the fine print is what punishment awaits us for not taking any "Abscond" actions to our Vistana/Westin Flex program we have enjoyed immensely in which we own both developer and resale. I'm a bit cynical that staying the course will have zero or limited negative consequences beyond not being able to use our existing ownership to book Marriotts.


----------



## Grandma2016

jabberwocky said:


> You can choose an individual VOI (ignoring Flex for the moment). But you can’t split up a lock-off and convert only half like you can with Vistana SO - both sides need to go in as a single unit.


Thank you for confirming


----------



## EasyGoer

VacationForever said:


> (1) is not correct.  The verbiage is that if your VOI was already in VSN as of 8/8/22, you may participate in Abound, but whether there is an enrollment fee remains to be seen.  If it wasn't in VSN as of 8/8/22, then it is out. Voluntary resorts which were not in VSN are not eligible.


----------



## EasyGoer

I was assuming that Covid hater's Vistana ownership was already in VSN as of 8/8/22. You were assuming not.


----------



## DanCali

I think that one of the most interesting things to see when the dust settles will be the retro offers for resale voluntary weeks (whether current or future). It's reasonable to assume that they will probably ask owners to pay $30K+ to have those weeks eligible for enrollment in Abound. But will those weeks also get access to VSN as part of the process? Weeks like WRF Gold, WKV Gold, WSJ Gold (voluntary phases) and maybe even WPORV Plat may have more trading power in VSN than in Abound. Any thoughts?


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I think that one of the most interesting things to see when the dust settles will be the retro offers for resale voluntary weeks (whether current or future). It's reasonable to assume that they will probably ask owners to pay $30K+ to have those weeks eligible for enrollment in Abound. But will those weeks also get access to VSN as part of the process? Weeks like WRF Gold, WKV Gold, WSJ Gold (voluntary phases) and maybe even WPORV Plat may have more trading power in VSN than in Abound. Any thoughts?


I think in order for a Vistana owner to be part of Abound they also have to be part of VSN. I guess they could get around that and just have them enroll directly in Abound like Marriott owners are, but I would suspect any retro offer will be to bring the week into VSN and also be Abound enrolled.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Since the soft rollout, I have attended 5 sales presentations [Marriott + Vistana]: Cancun [Mar], Vegas [Apr], Park City [Jun], Costa Rica [Jul], Maui [Aug-22]. 6th one at Waikoloa [Aug-30].
> Every one of the 5 confirmed that I would need to retro my Vistana-Resales in order for them to qualify for Abound participation as well as Marriott-Status.
> If they are lying, they are very consistent.
> 
> Prior to the soft rollout, I personally met with people from Marriott [Newport Coast: People I have known for over a decade and trust] and everything they mentioned last year has turned out to be accurate. The only thing they missed was the rollout date which keeps moving.
> They were very clear. Vistana owners will "have to pay to play".
> I personally don't think there will be an Enrollment-Fee for Vistana-Owners [Developer or Retro-Contracts].
> For resales [Voluntary as well as Mandatory] to participate [and count toward status], they would need to be retroed first.
> 
> *Vistana-Retro*: The best offer was from Vistana: $10K for 1-Contract followed by $5K for each additional contract. E.g. Qualifying 5 x Resale-Contracts cost $30K.
> With Vistana, one could retro 5-WKV x 2BR-EY-PLAT+ contracts [148100 x5 = 740500-SO] and qualify for 5-STAR-Elite as well as Chairmans-Club [4050 x 5 = 20250-DP].
> 
> *Marriott-retro*: With Marriott the cost to retro is much higher. Can't remember the exact details. However, it was ~$30K to retro a single contract.
> The offer was a little better for multiple. However, to retro 5 x Contracts and get to Chairmans-Club would be upwards of $60K.


I agree, while it’s a pipe dream to think that mandatory resale owners will be in abound from day one without a retro, I don’t see it happening.

With that being said, I guess those of us with mandatory resales just saw our VSN dues go up and lost a year of banking.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I agree, while it’s a pipe dream to think that mandatory resale owners will be in abound from day one without a retro, I don’t see it happening.
> 
> With that being said, I guess those of us with mandatory resales just saw our VSN dues go up and lost a year of banking.


If we don't get Abound, our dues only went up $15. I suspect that Abound ineligible will pay the same VSB Fee that opt-out owners would.


----------



## Troyrissa

I thought it was settled that mandatory resales would be allowed into Abound if enrolled in VSN by 8/9. Even the secret Marriott insider said this.  I guess it’s still not clear if mandatory resale owners will have to pay something other than the club fee of $230, but I haven’t read anything that says we will.  I think it is just ambiguous enough to debate but doesn’t Marriott want top tier Westin resorts like Maui and WSJ? Those resale owners won’t pay to retro their ownerships just to be in Abound. I think anything enrolled in VSN by 8/9 will be in without having to purchase anything, and non-developer purchases after that will have to purchase something to participate.


----------



## Ken555

Troyrissa said:


> I thought it was settled that mandatory resales would be allowed into Abound if enrolled in VSN by 8/9. Even the secret Marriott insider said this.  I guess it’s still not clear if mandatory resale owners will have to pay something other than the club fee of $230, but I haven’t read anything that says we will.  I think it is just ambiguous enough to debate but doesn’t Marriott want top tier Westin resorts like Maui and WSJ? Those resale owners won’t pay to retro their ownerships just to be in Abound. I think anything enrolled in VSN by 8/9 will be in without having to purchase anything, and non-developer purchases after that will have to purchase something to participate.



The distinction is how you define "TUG settled" and "Marriott settled". Since almost everything we've seen is market-speak from Marriott in vague and ambiguous statements, other than their sales staff (which are ever so definitive about their facts), there's enough wiggle room in the verbiage to keep threads like this going for weeks. Until the next round of updates from the mothership.


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> I agree, while it’s a pipe dream to think that mandatory resale owners will be in abound from day one without a retro, I don’t see it happening.
> 
> With that being said, I guess those of us with mandatory resales just saw our VSN dues go up and lost a year of banking.


VSN Club-Dues [just like Maintenance-Fees] have been rising over the years.
Here is a list I have maintained since we have been members with Vistana from 2010. As you can see, it has doubled in 10+ years.


----------



## MICROZE

Troyrissa said:


> I thought it was settled that mandatory resales would be allowed into Abound if enrolled in VSN by 8/9. Even the secret Marriott insider said this.  I guess it’s still not clear if mandatory resale owners will have to pay something other than the club fee of $230, but I haven’t read anything that says we will.  I think it is just ambiguous enough to debate but *doesn’t Marriott want top tier Westin resorts like Maui and WSJ*? _Those resale owners won’t pay to retro their ownerships just to be in Abound_. I think anything enrolled in VSN by 8/9 will be in without having to purchase anything, and non-developer purchases after that will have to purchase something to participate.


Of course, Marriott wants *Top-Tier* resorts to participate in Abound to enrich the new program.
Assuming all Developer-Purchased contracts will be auto-enrolled, does anyone have data what % of these Top-Tier-Contracts are Dev-Direct? 50%, 80%? If its high, does Marriott care about resale?

As Ken mentioned, "Nothing is settled". Everything I heard is hear-say [direct or indirect]. Some in print, but even that is not finalized.
Everything I say is my inference based on what I see or hear so even that is not reliable.

Agree, that _most resale owners are unlikely to pay_ $10K or $30K to participate in Abound. That's exactly why they purchased resale.

*Enrolled-Definition*: I didn't do anything to "Enroll" my Vistana contracts [Direct or Resale]. All I have seen so far is "Enroll" and "Enroll Eligible".

If the rollout is anything like 2010. There will be *2 Milestones*.

*Enrollment [One-Time]*: At rollout members can choose to "Enroll". Akin to register [Digital-Sign/Acknowledgement] to participate in the new "Abound" system.
Speculation: Developer/Direct/Retro purchases are "Eligible" and "Enroll" for free [maybe a small Adnin-Fee]. Resales will become "Eligible" to "Enroll", if they retro.

*Election [Every-Year]*: Each year "Enrolled" members can "Elect" to continue to use the VSN or INTERVAL as before or choose to "Deposit/Exchange" within "Abound".
Irrespective of the "Election" made each year, once "Enrolled", members will pay a single Annual Abound-Club-Dues to transact within VSN or Abound.

*Confusion*: Much of the confusion is caused because the salespeople are unable to comprehend and interpret the "Printed-Sheets". This is either because they are improperly trained or they are only familiar with one system and unable to answer half of the questions.


----------



## Ken555

MICROZE said:


> VSN Club-Dues [just like Maintenance-Fees] have been rising over the years.
> Here is a list I have maintained since we have been members with Vistana from 2010. As you can see, it has doubled in 10+ years.
> 
> View attachment 63714



FWIW:
2006: $99
2007: $99
2008: $109
2009: $109


----------



## pchung6

MICROZE said:


> Agree, that _most resale owners are unlikely to pay_ $10K or $30K to participate in Abound. That's exactly why they purchased resale.


One thing will get me to retro is to pay $10k for flex, not marriott points, and retro my Ko Olina. But I’ve been told no so far.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> Of course, Marriott wants *Top-Tier* resorts to participate in Abound to enrich the new program.
> Assuming all Developer-Purchased contracts will be auto-enrolled, does anyone have data what % of these Top-Tier-Contracts are Dev-Direct? 50%, 80%? If its high, does Marriott care about resale?
> 
> As Ken mentioned, "Nothing is settled". Everything I heard is hear-say [direct or indirect]. Some in print, but even that is not finalized.
> Everything I say is my inference based on what I see or hear so even that is not reliable.
> 
> Agree, that _most resale owners are unlikely to pay_ $10K or $30K to participate in Abound. That's exactly why they purchased resale.
> 
> *Enrolled-Definition*: I didn't do anything to "Enroll" my Vistana contracts [Direct or Resale]. All I have seen so far is "Enroll" and "Enroll Eligible".
> 
> If the rollout is anything like 2010. There will be *2 Milestones*.
> 
> *Enrollment [One-Time]*: At rollout members can choose to "Enroll". Akin to register to participate in the new "Abound" system.
> Speculation: Developer/Direct/Retro purchases are "Eligible" and "Enroll" for free [maybe a small Adnin-Fee]. Resales will become "Eligible" to "Enroll", if they retro.
> 
> *Election [Every-Year]*: Each year "Enrolled" members can "Elect" to continue to use the VSN or INTERVAL as before or choose to "Deposit" within "Abound".
> Irrespective of the "Election" made each year, once "Enrolled", members will pay a single Annual Abound-Club-Dues to transact within VSN or Abound.
> 
> *Confusion*: Much of the confusion is caused because the salespeople are unable to comprehend and interpret the "Printed-Sheets". This is either because they are improperly trained or they are only familiar with one system and unable to answer half of the questions.


I think there is some ex-post rationalization here to justify doing a retro in mandatory resale VSN weeks.

Of course salespeople are going to tell you it won’t be in Abound unless you purchase.Fit is possible this is what they have been told and they have every incentive to make you believe it as well. They may be telling the truth, but they could also be lying by omission by not telling you that there would be an amnesty for those who are currently in VSN. Quite frankly, whatever a Marriott person said pre-soft launch should not be taken seriously.

Things can change. I’ve had two salespeople tell me the exact opposite of what you have been told - and they have every incentive to tell me otherwise. Salespeople are always consistent in their lies, until they aren’t. If I were in your shoes, I probably would have done the same thing given the number of units you have.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is something different in how my account is being treated given I have previously done a retro and I own Flex? All I can relate is that it looks like my mandatory resale week is enrolled based on my unaltered owner profile.

I don’t see why this would be such a stretch to believe that mandatory resales will be included. Pre-2010 MVC owners were given the opportunity to enroll without requalification.

I’m pretty sure that enrollment will be automatic. Otherwise why would they require VSN owners to opt out of the new VSN fees to retain their existing VSN usage? Unlike MVC in 2010, VSN owners are already part of the club. This is really just a change in club rules (which you can opt out of) rather than having to affirmatively join.

It will be interesting to see where this lands


----------



## DanCali

pchung6 said:


> One thing will get me to retro is to pay $10k for flex, not marriott points, and retro my Ko Olina. But I’ve been told no so far.




You might have been able to pull that off in summer of 2020 when nobody was walking into the sales offices


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t see why this would be such a stretch to believe that mandatory resales will be included. Pre-2010 MVC owners were given the opportunity to enroll without requalification.



The disconnect I have is that if you take that logic all the way then all resale owners (mandatory + voluntary) should be given the opportunity to enroll without a retro... perhaps for some relatively minor fee, like they did in 2010. And, by the way, in 2010 even MVC retail buyers had to pay a fee to enroll but it was about 1/3 of the fee resale buyers paid.

But the speculation here is that only mandatory resales will be included. So, if that happens, it's not because they wanted to repeat 2010 and it's not because they want SVV more than WPORV and WSJ - it's because of legal hurdles that made it least costly for them to go this route.


----------



## MICROZE

pchung6 said:


> One thing will get me to retro is to pay $10k for flex, not marriott points, and retro my Ko Olina. But I’ve been told no so far.


Based on the presentations I attended this year.

Marriott can only retro Marriott inventory.
Vistana can only retro Vistana inventory.


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> Based on the presentations I attended this year.
> 
> Marriott can only retro Marriott inventory.
> Vistana can only retro Vistana inventory.




That is technically true - but since it's actually the same company, when there is a will there is a way...


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> The disconnect I have is that if you take that logic all the way then all resale owners (mandatory + voluntary) should be given the opportunity to enroll without a retro... perhaps for some relatively minor fee, like they did in 2010. And, by the way, in 2010 even MVC retail buyers had to pay a fee to enroll but it was about 1/3 of the fee resale buyers paid.
> 
> But the speculation here is that only mandatory resales will be included. So, if that happens, it's not because they wanted to repeat 2010 and it's not because they want SVV more than WPORV, and WSJ - it's because of legal hurdles that made it least costly for them to go this route.


I agree with you on this last point. The fact that VSN exists probably complicated things much more than they anticipated. Their options were to either kill VSN and make DC the new club - but this means that all mandatory resales would be eligible into perpetuity.

Keep VSN, but rather than trying to convince everyone to sign up for the affiliation agreement it is easier to seed some of the inventory and get interest in the program by allowing all existing VSN owners into the new system and limiting future resale participation to those who pay to play (my understanding is a large number of MVC weeks owners still are not in DC).


----------



## CPNY

I’m wondering how Abound will work with Interval. We know that interval doesn’t specify which unit is which. 

All of the mandatory resale units end up in the same interval account. With that being said I currently have 5 mandatory resale units pre 8/9/22 and one more coming in post 8/9. Assuming the first 5 get the new Abound benefits but the 6th will not, will I need two separate accounts?

Also, will interval update to show Abound points if I decide to elect points for an external exchange?
For example, I decide to elect for club points but find there isn’t anything available for what I want within the Abound exchange. I decide I don’t want to lose or bank the club points and I decide to put them into interval to extend them for two years to book a Hyatt or DVC unit. How will those points show in interval? Can I book any unit via external exchange?


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> (my understanding is a large number of MVC weeks owners still are not in DC).



That's probably true. 

The last MVC resale week I purchased was from a retail buyer who never enrolled even though they could have done so at $695(?). They were not using the week and just renting it annually till they decided to sell it. I asked them why they never enrolled in the DC, and they said they didn't want to pay MVC another dime after they found out how much their purchase was really worth on the resale market... There are probably many owners out there who are disillusioned with their original purchase and not interested in more of the same.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> I’m wondering how Abound will work with Interval. We know that interval doesn’t specify which unit is which.
> 
> All of the mandatory resale units end up in the same interval account. With that being said I currently have 5 mandatory resale units pre 8/9/22 and one more coming in post 8/9. Assuming the first 5 get the new Abound benefits but the 6th will not, will I need two separate accounts?
> 
> Also, will interval update to show Abound points if I decide to elect points for an external exchange?
> For example, I decide to elect for club points but find there isn’t anything available for what I want within the Abound exchange. I decide I don’t want to lose or bank the club points and I decide to put them into interval to extend them for two years to book a Hyatt or DVC unit. How will those points show in interval? Can I book any unit via external exchange?



You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.

As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.
> 
> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


Good to know. But that’s also annoying I’ll have two interval accounts to deal with. I hope it’s easy to have the same log in information and just toggle between accounts but it’s so archaic I’ll prob have to a separate log in


----------



## ocdb8r

MICROZE said:


> Based on the presentations I attended this year.
> 
> Marriott can only retro Marriott inventory.
> Vistana can only retro Vistana inventory.


I have confirmation in writing from a sales director as part of an offer that this changed in June and that MVC purchases can requalify VSN weeks.  I have no idea about the other way around because I have zero interest in the flex products.


----------



## GrayFal

CPNY said:


> I’m wondering how Abound will work with Interval. We know that interval doesn’t specify which unit is which.
> 
> All of the mandatory resale units end up in the same interval account. With that being said I currently have 5 mandatory resale units pre 8/9/22 and one more coming in post 8/9. Assuming the first 5 get the new Abound benefits but the 6th will not, will I need two separate accounts?
> 
> Also, will interval update to show Abound points if I decide to elect points for an external exchange?



yes, your week number 6 will need its own account. To avoid that expense you might want to use it just on VSN.

i have a Marriott corporate account for my enrolled weeks and a personal account for my unenrolledweeks  I have a Starwood corporate account for my VSN weeks and could add my mandatory WSJ to my personal account if I like.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.
> 
> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


I thought I read you can deposit elected club points into interval. So it seems my scenario could work. I can elect my deeded Vistana week for club points, then deposit those points into Abound.


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.
> 
> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


Since VSN covers the II annual fee, I think it will be interesting to see whether they set up separate accounts for owners that have both “new VSN” (ie Abound enrolled) and legacy mandatory resale VSN.

Will you have to pay two VSN fees?  Or will you just pay one. It could be that the new VSN fee covers all VSN eligible weeks in II, as it does now for those with a mixture of mandatory resale and developer purchases.


----------



## CPNY

GrayFal said:


> yes, your week number 6 will need its own account. To avoid that expense you might want to use it just on VSN.
> 
> i have a Marriott corporate account for my enrolled weeks and a personal account for my unenrolledweeks  I have a Starwood corporate account for my VSN weeks and could add my mandatory WSJ to my personal account if I like.


So then that would mean I’m paying an additional 170 for VSN club dues on that 6th ownership. However according to the FAQ that’s not the case. I will only be charged with one club dues. Unless Since it’s mandatory but not eligible for abound, I’ll receive a different II account but won’t be charged for it? Will they treat mandatory ownerships as voluntary with a paid Interval account going forward?


----------



## ocdb8r

CPNY said:


> I’m wondering how Abound will work with Interval. We know that interval doesn’t specify which unit is which.
> 
> Also, will interval update to show Abound points if I decide to elect points for an external exchange?
> For example, I decide to elect for club points but find there isn’t anything available for what I want within the Abound exchange. I decide I don’t want to lose or bank the club points and I decide to put them into interval to extend them for two years to book a Hyatt or DVC unit. How will those points show in interval? Can I book any unit via external exchange?


I am sure the Marriott folks can answer this as it almost certainly will work the same way as with DC points currently.  However, just noting that this has got to be up there with one of the pretty poor uses of points.  The II DC points rates for weeks is pretty poor compared to maintenance costs and a "week for week" sort of exchange.  I get that someone may find themselves with this as the only option to extend....but any form of internal banking would likely be best unless this is your last resort.



DanCali said:


> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


The FAQ indicates otherwise.  You may use Abound points in II but ONLY for an "external" exchange (i.e. for a non-MVC or VSN resort) and as such a normal exchange fee will apply.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Since VSN covers the II annual fee, I think it will be interesting to see whether they set up separate accounts for owners that have both “new VSN” (ie Abound enrolled) and legacy mandatory resale VSN.
> 
> Will you have to pay two VSN fees?  Or will you just pay one. It could be that the new VSN fee covers all VSN eligible weeks in II, as it does now for those with a mixture of mandatory resale and developer purchases.


Right, will we have a different account for club points, one for mandatory resale, and one for post 8/8 resales? One could have 3-4 interval accounts lol


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> I thought I read you can deposit elected club points into interval. So it seems my scenario could work. I can elect my deeded Vistana week for club points, then deposit those points into Abound.
> View attachment 63720



Seems indeed like it should be possible to do.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.
> 
> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.



I do not understand when you say you can’t deposit elected Abound points in Interval. I have both trust points and elected points and they are treated exactly the same.


----------



## GrayFal

CPNY said:


> So then that would mean I’m paying an additional 170 for VSN club dues on that 6th ownership. However according to the FAQ that’s not the case. I will only be charged with one club dues. Unless Since it’s mandatory but not eligible for abound, I’ll receive a different II account but won’t be charged for it? Will they treat mandatory ownerships as voluntary with a paid Interval account going forward?


I am not reading it the same as you.  Pre 8/9 mandatory resale will be in abound program. Post 8/9 will be in VSN ( or whatever they decide to call it)
At this time,  the Marriott DC and VSN both include a paid II account.  That is likely not going to change. I am able to add my unenrolled Marriott and Westin weeks to my personal account.  I also have Bluegreen Vacation Club and Morritts Tortuga units in that account. 

everyone used to have one II account until these Corporations started requiring their own - at one time I had 5 II accounts!


----------



## GrayFal

TravelTime said:


> I do not understand when you say you can’t deposit elected Abound points in Interval. I have both trust points and elected points and they are treated exactly the same.


As a Marriott owner - what you are saying is correct. @TravelTime is incorrect.


----------



## CPNY

GrayFal said:


> I am not reading it the same as you.  Pre 8/9 mandatory resale will be in abound program. Post 8/9 will be in VSN ( or whatever they decide to call it)
> At this time,  the Marriott DC and VSN both include a paid II account.  That is likely not going to change. I am able to add my unenrolled Marriott and Westin weeks to my personal account.  I also have Bluegreen Vacation Club and Morritts Tortuga units in that account.
> 
> everyone used to have one II account until these Corporations started requiring their own - at one time I had 5 II accounts!


Oh gosh.. 5?!

So my pre 8/9 will have a corp account and then my post 8/9 will also have a corp account? I’m assuming they would need to separate it since internal interval exchanges will be free for those abound eligible ownerships. I’m also really concerned with how they handle club dues for abound eligible and those that are only VSN


----------



## GrayFal

CPNY said:


> Good to know. But that’s also annoying I’ll have two interval accounts to deal with. I hope it’s easy to have the same log in information and just toggle between accounts but it’s so archaic I’ll prob have to a separate log in


Yes - that's how it works. I toggle between 5 accounts.


----------



## GrayFal

CPNY said:


> Oh gosh.. 5?!
> 
> So my pre 8/9 will have a corp account and then my post 8/9 will also have a corp account? I’m assuming they would need to separate it since internal interval exchanges will be free for those abound eligible ownerships. I’m also really concerned with how they handle club dues for abound eligible and those that are only VSN


Yes. 2 accounts.  So it makes more sense for you to use the post 8/9 week as SO every year which will incur no extra fees above the $170 and do II trading in the corporate account.  If you trade Marriott/Vistana  to Marriott/Vistana there are also free retrades. No need for eplus unless you trade out of the family. I am going to Westin Nanea and Westin Princeville next month using 1BR plat SVV 44K and 2BR SVV 67K.  Interval exchanges are alive and well.


----------



## remowidget

MICROZE said:


> *Confusion*: Much of the confusion is caused because the salespeople are unable to comprehend and interpret the "Printed-Sheets". This is either because they are improperly trained or they are only familiar with one system and unable to answer half of the questions.



I've been confused because of my expectations as well. I go into an "Owners Update" meeting wanting to learn more about what I have. It turns out that the sales people frequently know little and don't really care about what I have because it hasn't been sold in quite a while. The sales people really only know about the current product, of which they want me to buy. There is a good chance they are not even that knowledgeable in what they are selling.


----------



## CPNY

GrayFal said:


> Yes. 2 accounts.  So it makes more sense for you to use the post 8/9 week as SO every year which will incur no extra fees above the $170 and do II trading in the corporate account.  If you trade Marriott/Vistana  to Marriott/Vistana there are also free retrades. No need for eplus unless you trade out of the family. I am going to Westin Nanea and Westin Princeville next month using 1BR plat SVV 44K and 2BR SVV 67K.  Interval exchanges are alive and well.


Same! I used a SVV 44K for 2 bedroom WNA in Feb. I will use my abound eligible units for interval when I can. Especially for vistana units that are much more in SO


----------



## GrayFal

CPNY said:


> Same! I used a SVV 44K for 2 bedroom WNA in Feb. I will use my abound eligible units for interval when I can. Especially for vistana units that are much more in SO


Good strategy


----------



## MICROZE

ocdb8r said:


> I have confirmation in writing from a sales director as part of an offer that this changed in June and that MVC purchases can requalify VSN weeks.  I have no idea about the other way around because I have zero interest in the flex products.


Is Marriott offering the same deal as VSN? $10K to qualify 1-Contract + $5K for each additional contract?
If not, then it's expensive as the VSN offer [albeit not cheap] was much better than the Marriott offer.


----------



## TravelTime

GrayFal said:


> As a Marriott owner - what you are saying is correct. @TravelTime is incorrect.



Just to clarify, are you saying elected points have different rights than trust points?

If that is what you are saying, I have never had that experience. I have used them the exact same way. It has been clarified many times on TUG that elected points are the same as trust points.

Did I misunderstand what he said and he did not mean to say elected points are different than trust points?


----------



## GrayFal

TravelTime said:


> Just to clarify, are you saying elected points have different rights than trust points?
> 
> If that is what you are saying, I have never had that experience. I have used them the exact same way. It has been clarified many times on TUG that elected points are the same as trust points.
> 
> Did I misunderstand what he said and he did not mean to say elected points are different than trust points?


No, I am agreeing with you…
I might have quoted the wrong person….all points treated the same   Someone above you stated they were different

edit, it was post #613, @DanCali - I was agreeing with you, @TravelTime sorry!


----------



## Venter

DanCali said:


> That is technically true - but since it's actually the same company, when there is a will there is a way...


I bought a Costa Rica Platinum week to have a Westin Flex EY, a Sheraton Flex even year(two packages) and a Lakeside Terrace winter odd year retro'd. I said this is the only way I would bite.  The salesman had to email corporate.  They came back with the OK.


----------



## MICROZE

Venter said:


> I bought a Costa Rica Platinum week to have a Westin Flex EY, a Sheraton Flex even year(two packages) and a Lakeside Terrace winter odd year retro'd. I said this is the only way I would bite.  The salesman had to email corporate.  They came back with the OK.





Venter said:


> I bought a Costa Rica Platinum week to have a Westin Flex EY, a Sheraton Flex even year(two packages) and a Lakeside Terrace winter odd year retro'd. I said this is the only way I would bite.  The salesman had to email corporate.  They came back with the OK.


Someone else mentioned that purchasing a Marriott to retro Marriott/Vistana is possible. I would hazard a guess that the Costa Rica Platinum-Week wasn't cheap.
Looking for an example of the other way round. Purchasing Vistana to retro Marriott/Vistana. Which is the cheaper route.

At our presentation in Costa Rica [JUN-27-2022], here is what Marc presented us with. Platinum-2BR-EY was $55K [$13.80/DCP 15%-Savings over $16.08/DCP].


----------



## Venter

MICROZE said:


> Someone else mentioned that purchasing a Marriott to retro Marriott/Vistana is possible. I would hazard a guess that the Costa Rica Platinum-Week wasn't cheap.
> Looking for an example of the other way round. Purchasing Vistana to retro Marriott/Vistana. Which is the cheaper route.


You are correct. In my case Vistana always saw my two Sheraton Flex and my Lakeside Terrace as three packages(for clarification my Flex packages was acquired free as 111 100 but consisted of a 44 000 and a 67 100 package. Just in case anybody else reads this - make sure your big packages are not broken into smaller ones as it will be a headache down the road.  I did not think about this at the time and did not enquire.  I only noticed once it was uploaded into the system.  In the old days it would have meant paying extra fees. It did not bother me though as it is voluntary and I was not in the network.  Now with Abound it will be extra savings.).  With my yearly Westin Flex that would mean $10 000 and another $15 000 on top.  I wanted to wait for a Vistana presentation but as all my Vistana only cost me about $3000 to acquire I thought that the extra $15 000 for the Costa Rica week was worth it.  

I could have retro'd for a gold week but would have gotten about 1500 less points.  Incentives was worth about $8000. Total with Vistana and the week brought my buy in to $5/point and MF about .50/point.  Buying Flex to retro would have made the per point price and MF per point higher.

I can see your point though as getting a high point value Marriott week in the system for a $10 000 Flex package would definitely make the buy in worthwhile. In the emails I got from the salesman they looked at the retro the way that Vistana did and calculated my packages to be equal to or more than $35 000($10 000 for first and $5000 for each additional).  I guess asking it from the Marriott to Vistana side they may look at the amount of points and what you need to bring those in(equal points purchase) and that is why they did not want to.  It may be done by buyin to a European or Aruna week but will be dearer.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> You will need a separate II account for weeks that are not eligible for Abound.
> 
> As far as I know, only Trust points can be deposited in II. You cannot deposit elected Abound points in Interval just like you can't deposit Staroptions from a week ownership. You can deposit only what you actually own.


You can certainly deposit elected Abound/DC points into II.


----------



## MICROZE

Venter said:


> You are correct. In my case Vistana always saw my two Sheraton Flex and my Lakeside Terrace as three packages(for clarification my Flex packages was acquired free as 111 100 but consisted of a 44 000 and a 67 100 package. Just in case anybody else reads this - make sure your big packages are not broken into smaller ones as it will be a headache down the road.  I did not think about this at the time and did not enquire.  I only noticed once it was uploaded into the system.  In the old days it would have meant paying extra fees. It did not bother me though as it is voluntary and I was not in the network.  Now with Abound it will be extra savings.).  With my yearly Westin Flex that would mean $10 000 and another $15 000 on top.  I wanted to wait for a Vistana presentation but as all my Vistana only cost me about $3000 to acquire I thought that the extra $15 000 for the Costa Rica week was worth it.
> 
> I could have retro'd for a gold week but would have gotten about 1500 less points.  Incentives was worth about $8000. Total with Vistana and the week brought my buy in to $5/point and MF about .50/point.  Buying Flex to retro would have made the per point price and MF per point higher.
> 
> I can see your point though as getting a high point value Marriott week in the system for a $10 000 Flex package would definitely make the buy in worthwhile. In the emails I got from the salesman they looked at the retro the way that Vistana did and calculated my packages to be equal to or more than $35 000($10 000 for first and $5000 for each additional).  I guess asking it from the Marriott to Vistana side they may look at the amount of points and what you need to bring those in(equal points purchase) and that is why they did not want to.  It may be done by buyin to a European or Aruna week but will be dearer.


Sounds like a great deal especially if [after factoring in all the incentives] you got it down to $5/DCP. The "Free" acquisition of the Flex-Packages definitely helped lower your buy-in cost.

We did a slightly different transaction at Nanea last week.
They offered to sell me a 257700-SO-EY for ~$130K. Very Expensive!

However, they offered to take back 5-Contracts [3 x 2BR-EOY WLR-PLAT 222150-SO-EY] + [2 x Aventuras-Flex-Packages ~100K-SO-EY] for $95K credit toward the Nanea purchase.
The best we could hope to get for all 5-Contracts on the resale market would be ~$7.5K + Closing-Costs, so the $95K offer was very tempting.
In addition, what we were acquiring [WNA-EY-PLATINUM: 257.7K-SO/10910-DCP MF: $4398] seems to hold value a little better that the 5-Contracts we were giving up [3 x WLR + 2-Flex].

*Future-Value: *The benefit to us would be decluttering our account [Fewer-Contracts] as well as shedding [Non-Deeded/RTU] as well as [$0-Resale-Value Flex].
*Additional-CapEx: *After all the incentives [One-Time 204K-SO + 20%-Discount + 350K-Bonvoy + Stay-Credit-Waikoloa $1750 + 12 x 330K-Certs] we fell for ~$30K. Ouch. Duck for cover. 
*Additional-OpEx:* The MF goes up from $4K [5-Contracts] to $4.4K [1-Contract].
*Fewer Star-Options: *Swap [3 x 2BR-WLR-EOY 222150-SO + Ave-Flex: 100K] *322K-SO* for *257700-SO* WNA is a -ve 64K-SO EY. Retain 5-Star with 1.15M-SO/Year so it didn't matter as much.
*Same Abound-Points: *In the new Abound-System 257700-WNA accrues 10900-DCP-EY versus the 10745-DCP-EY [WLR-EOY: 4950 x 3-Contracts /2 = 7425 + Ave-Flex: 3320]. So that is a wash.

Pretty sure what we did was not wise.
Rationalizing it with:

Simplification: Reducing #-Contracts [not a good justification]
Shed RTU/Flex: Not have to own RTU or Flex [Rising-MF] [only purchased for retros] low future value
Inherit Deeded-Value: Acquire something that will hopefully hold up value a little better than RTU/Flex


----------



## Venter

MICROZE said:


> Sounds like a great deal especially if [after factoring in all the incentives] you got it down to $5/DCP. The "Free" acquisition of the Flex-Packages definitely helped lower your buy-in cost.
> 
> We did a slightly different transaction at Nanea last week.
> They offered to sell me a 257700-SO-EY for ~$130K. Very Expensive!
> 
> However, they offered to take back 5-Contracts [3 x 2BR-EOY WLR-PLAT 222150-SO-EY] + [2 x Aventuras-Flex-Packages ~100K-SO-EY] for $95K credit toward the Nanea purchase.
> The best we could hope to get for all 5-Contracts on the resale market would be ~$7.5K + Closing-Costs, so the $95K offer was very tempting.
> In addition, what we were acquiring [WNA-EY-PLATINUM: 257.7K-SO/10910-DCP MF: $4398] seems to hold value a little better that the 5-Contracts we were giving up [3 x WLR + 2-Flex].
> 
> *Future-Value: *The benefit to us would be decluttering our account [Fewer-Contracts] as well as shedding [Non-Deeded/RTU] as well as [$0-Resale-Value Flex].
> *Additional-CapEx: *After all the incentives [One-Time 204K-SO + 20%-Discount + 350K-Bonvoy + Stay-Credit-Waikoloa $1750 + 12 x 330K-Certs] we fell for ~$30K. Ouch. Duck for cover.
> *Additional-OpEx:* The MF goes up from $4K [5-Contracts] to $4.4K [1-Contract].
> *Fewer Star-Options: *Swap [3 x 2BR-WLR-EOY 222150-SO + Ave-Flex: 100K] *322K-SO* for *257700-SO* WNA is a -ve 64K-SO EY. Retain 5-Star with 1.15M-SO/Year so it didn't matter as much.
> *Same Abound-Points: *In the new Abound-System 257700-WNA accrues 10900-DCP-EY versus the 10745-DCP-EY [WLR-EOY: 4950 x 3-Contracts /2 = 7425 + Ave-Flex: 3320]. So that is a wash.
> 
> Pretty sure what we did was not wise.
> Rationalizing it with:
> 
> Simplification: Reducing #-Contracts [not a good justification]
> Shed RTU/Flex: Not have to own RTU or Flex [Rising-MF] [only purchased for retros] low future value
> Inherit Deeded-Value: Acquire something that will hopefully hold up value a little better than RTU/Flex


It sounds like you thought this through pretty well.  Your MF per point also seems below $.45/point.  Seems pretty good to me.  Nanea also gets a better points ratio per SO than the other Flex products.

Living in Colorado the Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex works.  We have not been to Hawaii yet. Still on the bucket list.  Costa Rica was wonderful and is a short flight for us so I can see us going there more often. However, things happen and we may move which would make the Flexibility in both systems a good hedge. Hopefully I will not get zero dollars for the Costa Rica week one day.


----------



## DonnaJ123

I guess I will wait and see.  We own 2 x WKORVN OF.  If abound is offered without paying a retro…I may deposit a unit here and there.  If it isn’t offered then I am 100% content to continue with Vistana (renting out my units for years when we choose to vacay differently).  When we chose Westin it was because it was the best fit for us.  We use our home resort or trade into Westin Desert Willow to have great getaways.  Abound could open some opportunities…but we wouldn’t be interested to pay more to use Marriotts.  The ball is in their court.


----------



## Ken555

MICROZE said:


> Pretty sure what we did was not wise.



This is a great example of how owning timeshares can sometimes encourage additional purchases, if only to make the complicated ownership “easier” in some fashion. 

Also, the rationalization that their offer of $95k was actually $95,000 is amusing. You know why they do this.

More importantly you know what you’re buying, unlike most, and I appreciate why you made this decision. 

When I read experiences like this, I am reminded that I have been able to trade or exchange for the best resorts at minimal cost and that I should be thankful for sites like TUG that helped me learn the system and how best to play the game. I have my guidelines on how much to spend, and I’ve been able to adhere to them for 15+ years and see no reason to change now, just because Marriott is calling the shots. On average I travel ~4 months out of the year (excepting the last couple of years) and I see many ways to continue doing this with or without Marriott. Ultimately, if you must go to a timeshare and are most comfortable with Marriott then you know what you will pay - and if not, or if you are more flexible with your options then you will find alternatives. You know what you’re buying.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Venter said:


> You are correct. In my case Vistana always saw my two Sheraton Flex and my Lakeside Terrace as three packages(for clarification my Flex packages was acquired free as 111 100 but consisted of a 44 000 and a 67 100 package. Just in case anybody else reads this - make sure your big packages are not broken into smaller ones as it will be a headache down the road.  I did not think about this at the time and did not enquire.  I only noticed once it was uploaded into the system.  In the old days it would have meant paying extra fees. It did not bother me though as it is voluntary and I was not in the network.  Now with Abound it will be extra savings.).  With my yearly Westin Flex that would mean $10 000 and another $15 000 on top.  I wanted to wait for a Vistana presentation but as all my Vistana only cost me about $3000 to acquire I thought that the extra $15 000 for the Costa Rica week was worth it.
> 
> I could have retro'd for a gold week but would have gotten about 1500 less points.  Incentives was worth about $8000. Total with Vistana and the week brought my buy in to $5/point and MF about .50/point.  Buying Flex to retro would have made the per point price and MF per point higher.
> 
> I can see your point though as getting a high point value Marriott week in the system for a $10 000 Flex package would definitely make the buy in worthwhile. In the emails I got from the salesman they looked at the retro the way that Vistana did and calculated my packages to be equal to or more than $35 000($10 000 for first and $5000 for each additional).  I guess asking it from the Marriott to Vistana side they may look at the amount of points and what you need to bring those in(equal points purchase) and that is why they did not want to.  It may be done by buyin to a European or Aruna week but will be dearer.



What were the incentives for $8000?


----------



## Venter

TravelTime said:


> What were the incentives for $8000?


12 000 points and some money for a couple of nights as I cobbled together our stay.
I have two years to use the points.  I will be renting my points instead and if I can get the going rate of $.67/point then I will already have $8000.


----------



## pacman777

MICROZE said:


> Sounds like a great deal especially if [after factoring in all the incentives] you got it down to $5/DCP. The "Free" acquisition of the Flex-Packages definitely helped lower your buy-in cost.
> 
> We did a slightly different transaction at Nanea last week.
> They offered to sell me a 257700-SO-EY for ~$130K. Very Expensive!
> 
> However, they offered to take back 5-Contracts [3 x 2BR-EOY WLR-PLAT 222150-SO-EY] + [2 x Aventuras-Flex-Packages ~100K-SO-EY] for $95K credit toward the Nanea purchase.
> The best we could hope to get for all 5-Contracts on the resale market would be ~$7.5K + Closing-Costs, so the $95K offer was very tempting.
> In addition, what we were acquiring [WNA-EY-PLATINUM: 257.7K-SO/10910-DCP MF: $4398] seems to hold value a little better that the 5-Contracts we were giving up [3 x WLR + 2-Flex].
> 
> *Future-Value: *The benefit to us would be decluttering our account [Fewer-Contracts] as well as shedding [Non-Deeded/RTU] as well as [$0-Resale-Value Flex].
> *Additional-CapEx: *After all the incentives [One-Time 204K-SO + 20%-Discount + 350K-Bonvoy + Stay-Credit-Waikoloa $1750 + 12 x 330K-Certs] we fell for ~$30K. Ouch. Duck for cover.
> *Additional-OpEx:* The MF goes up from $4K [5-Contracts] to $4.4K [1-Contract].
> *Fewer Star-Options: *Swap [3 x 2BR-WLR-EOY 222150-SO + Ave-Flex: 100K] *322K-SO* for *257700-SO* WNA is a -ve 64K-SO EY. Retain 5-Star with 1.15M-SO/Year so it didn't matter as much.
> *Same Abound-Points: *In the new Abound-System 257700-WNA accrues 10900-DCP-EY versus the 10745-DCP-EY [WLR-EOY: 4950 x 3-Contracts /2 = 7425 + Ave-Flex: 3320]. So that is a wash.
> 
> Pretty sure what we did was not wise.
> Rationalizing it with:
> 
> Simplification: Reducing #-Contracts [not a good justification]
> Shed RTU/Flex: Not have to own RTU or Flex [Rising-MF] [only purchased for retros] low future value
> Inherit Deeded-Value: Acquire something that will hopefully hold up value a little better than RTU/Flex



Would have been a better deal if you also could have retroed/authorized 4 or 5 voluntary resale weeks into VSN/Abound. Was that even an option?


----------



## dioxide45

Yeah, I've watched them all and they are all fluff pieces. Much more detail in the FAQ.


----------



## MICROZE

pacman777 said:


> Would have been a better deal if you also could have retroed/authorized 4 or 5 voluntary resale weeks into VSN/Abound. Was that even an option?


Good point.

Yes. That was an option. Unfortunately I didn't have any more resales.

*Kierland-Resales-Retroed*
Surprisingly they were very clear that none of my 6 x Kierland 148.1K [all resales previously retroed] were eligible for Trade-In.
Another example whereby even if a resale is retroed [expectation is to enjoy all Direct-Buy-Benrfits] it continues to be flagged and carry the stigma of a "lower-class" contract.
Even if they were to offer me full retail for the WKV, we would not have turned those in.


----------



## ocdb8r

MICROZE said:


> Is Marriott offering the same deal as VSN? $10K to qualify 1-Contract + $5K for each additional contract?
> If not, then it's expensive as the VSN offer [albeit not cheap] was much better than the Marriott offer.


They do have some sort of a lower "buy-in" offer to requalify a single week, but I didn't get details because at the price point the only thing on offer was "points" which I was not interested in.  As I was looking at a week in Spain or Aruba, effectively was told that spend over 50/55K (depending on where the fx rate was at) would requalify up to 7 weeks and spend between 30-50k would requalify up to 3 weeks.  Happy to put people in contact with my salesperson in Spain if interested. He's pretty up front, understands the main goals of getting to the best mf ratio per effective point and wasn't overly pushy (and fairly frank about some "details" of the Abound system being worked out).


----------



## KACTravels

I tried watching them last night. Nothing but spinning wheels.


----------



## timsi

KACTravels said:


> I tried watching them last night. Nothing but spinning wheels.


LOL. Any video that starts with " dear owner, you will be _surprised and delighted_ to find out that we are cutting banking in half"?


----------



## remowidget

...


MICROZE said:


> Good point.
> 
> Yes. That was an option. Unfortunately I didn't have any more resales.
> 
> *Kierland-Resales-Retroed*
> Surprisingly they were very clear that none of my 6 x Kierland 148.1K [all resales previously retroed] were eligible for Trade-In.
> Another example whereby even if a resale is retroed [expectation is to enjoy all Direct-Buy-Benrfits] it continues to be flagged and carry the stigma of a "lower-class" contract.
> Even if they were to offer me full retail for the WKV, we would not have turned those in.


I don't know about "lower class," but it does seem to back up the lower Abound point value than tuggers think that Kierland should receive. MVC is only going to accept trade in properties that they want.


----------



## grrrah

Do we know (from current DC maybe) if we would be able to see availability by days/weeks before enrolling our VOIs?  Even better if we could book and deposit VOIs simultaneously on one reservation move.


----------



## jabberwocky

grrrah said:


> Do we know (from current DC maybe) if we would be able to see availability by days/weeks before enrolling our VOIs?  Even better if we could book and deposit VOIs simultaneously on one reservation move.


The answer is it depends.  Normally, you have to deposit your VOI for Abound points no later than September 30 of the year prior to use (October 31 for Presidential and Chairmen).  This year you can deposit up until the end of the year.  Depending on whether you have 12 or 13 month priority, it means you will have to deposit in advance of knowing availability in the last months of the following year.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> The answer is it depends.  Normally, you have to deposit your VOI for Abound points no later than September 30 of the year prior to use (October 31 for Presidential and Chairmen).  This year you can deposit up until the end of the year.  Depending on whether you have 12 or 13 month priority, it means you will have to deposit in advance of knowing availability in the last months of the following year.


But doesn't the user have to have the required points in their MVC/Abound account before they can see specific availability for a unit? The OP wants to know that a specific unit is available before they elect their points and assuming they don't have a residual sufficient point balance from previous transactions, would they be able to see this?


----------



## wjarcher

kozykritter said:


> But doesn't the user have to have the required points in their MVC/Abound account before they can see specific availability for a unit? The OP wants to know that a specific unit is available before they elect their points and assuming they don't have a residual sufficient point balance from previous transactions, would they be able to see this?


you can search the availability without necessarily having enough points.  there is also a points calculator at Marriott side to tell you how many points you need to book a specific week/unit type.


----------



## Jimmyboy

jabberwocky said:


> The answer is it depends.  Normally, you have to deposit your VOI for Abound points no later than September 30 of the year prior to use (October 31 for Presidential and Chairmen).  This year you can deposit up until the end of the year.  Depending on whether you have 12 or 13 month priority, it means you will have to deposit in advance of knowing availability in the last months of the following year.



I have enough Vistana SO's to qualify for Chairman.  Do I have to exchange them all to qualify for Chairman status and 13 priority?


----------



## wjarcher

Jimmyboy said:


> I have enough Vistana SO's to qualify for Chairman.  Do I have to exchange them all to qualify for Chairman status and 13 priority?



The ownership status is determined by the potential points of the weeks you own;  you can decide whether to elect a certain week for points in each year.


----------



## Jimmyboy

wjarcher said:


> The ownership status is determined by the potential points of the weeks you own;  you can decide whether to elect a certain week for points in each year.



Thanks,  That makes sense.   The only really big benefit I see is the 13 mon window.   
Do the Marriott owners have to surrender their VOI home units for VSN owners to be able to have availability?  My undestanding the Marriott program is more of a buy points program that buy deeds.  If that is the case it would seem to me then The VSN owners would be just competing with Marriott owners on a first come basis.


----------



## wjarcher

Jimmyboy said:


> Thanks,  That makes sense.   The only really big benefit I see is the 13 mon window.
> Do the Marriott owners have to surrender their VOI home units for VSN owners to be able to have availability?  My undestanding the Marriott program is more of a buy points program that buy deeds.  If that is the case it would seem to me then The VSN owners would be just competing with Marriott owners on a first come basis.



Besides the 13 months booking window advantage, you also get to book 1+ day if you choose.  For example, you can book Sunday to Thursday because Friday and Saturday costs significantly more points.

All of the points inventory in Marriott destinations club is available to VSN owners.  While you are competing with Marriott owners for Marriott weeks, the Marriott owners might be trying to reserve the Vistana weeks you gave up.


----------



## Jimmyboy

wjarcher said:


> Besides the 13 months booking window advantage, you also get to book 1+ day if you choose.  For example, you can book Sunday to Thursday because Friday and Saturday costs significantly more points.
> 
> All of the inventory in Marriott destinations club is available to VSN owners.  While you are competing with Marriott owners for Marriott weeks, the Marriott owners might be trying to reserve the Vistana weeks you gave up.



So VSN Chairman status owners are going to have a 1 month jump on Marriott owners if they don't also go surrender into the Abound progam and are Chairman or Presidential status?  Interesting..


----------



## kozykritter

Jimmyboy said:


> So VSN Chairman status owners are going to have a 1 month jump on Marriott owners if they don't also go surrender into the Abound progam and are Chairman or Presodential status?  Interesting..


No, weeks and points inventory is separate in MVC. VSN members will be competing with other Marriott point owner (purchased/elected) on equal footing for booking points inventory only. There will be no access to weeks ownership because that's in a separate inventory pool. If a week's owner elects points for their ownership, then that inventory gets put into Abound and is bookable by everyone with points, same as when a VSN owner elects points.


----------



## TravelTime

Jimmyboy said:


> So VSN Chairman status owners are going to have a 1 month jump on Marriott owners if they don't also go surrender into the Abound progam and are Chairman or Presidential status?  Interesting..



This is a good chart that answers this question:



			https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/OwnershipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf


----------



## wjarcher

Jimmyboy said:


> So VSN Chairman status owners are going to have a 1 month jump on Marriott owners if they don't also go surrender into the Abound progam and are Chairman or Presidential status?  Interesting..


The Marriott weeks owner can also book at 13-month if they own more than 2 weeks.  I should also mention that Marriott only release half of either points or weeks inventory for 13-month booking window.


----------



## timsi

wjarcher said:


> I should also mention that Marriott only release *half of either points or weeks inventory for 13-month booking window*.



Is this in the owners' manual?


----------



## Jimmyboy

kozykritter said:


> No, weeks and points inventory is separate in MVC. VSN members will be competing with other Marriott point owner (purchased/elected) on equal footing for booking points inventory only. There will be no access to weeks ownership because that's in a separate inventory pool. If a week's owner elects points for their ownership, then that inventory gets put into Abound and is bookable by everyone with points, same as when a VSN owner elects points.



It seems like their points inventory maybe similar to the VSN flex program.


----------



## Jimmyboy

TravelTime said:


> This is a good chart that answers this question:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/OwnershipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf


----------



## wjarcher

Their trust points is like flex (basically a pool of deeded weeks), but their weeks owner (if eligible) can also elect for points on yearly basis to increase their points inventory.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## cubigbird

Comparing Presidential vs Chairmans there doesn't seem to be much of an increase in benefits / added value at Chairmans.  Certainly that could have been an opportunity to leave the current VSN benefits alone - early check in, late check out, end of year banking deadline etc....both Presidential and Chairmans don't need to have Bonvoy Titanium status.


----------



## trippka

Well, I tried to get the info from the Vistana website by pushing the "learn more" button. It appears that lots of people must be wanting to learn more, or they haven't set it up yet.


----------



## Grandma2016

TravelTime said:


> This is a good chart that answers this question:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/OwnershipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf


But the 13 month doesnt count towards inventory a vistana owner has rights to in home reservation period???   Im so confused on this


----------



## remowidget

Grandma2016 said:


> But the 13 month doesnt count towards inventory a vistana owner has rights to in home reservation period???   Im so confused on this


If you do nothing, you book according to Vistana rules. If you convert your Staroptions to Abound points you follow MVC/Abound booking rules.


----------



## dlca1

I’m a mandatory resale owner. Just got this email from vistana.  I wasn’t included on prior abound related mailings mentioned here on Tug. This makes me optimistic that mandatory resale will indeed get included. Perhaps this is a recent change.

EXCITING NEWS FOR MEMBERS

YOUR VACATION LIFE KEEPS GETTING BETTER                       
The Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program. Through your membership in the

VSN®, you will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*

Message from Brian Miller, President, Vacation Ownership Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation


 


WHAT’S NEW FOR YOU

Through the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program, you can look forward to:

MORE DIRECT ACCESS
to Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties

MORE CHOICES
for cruises, guided tours, hotels, car rentals, and more

MORE BENEFITS
at your new Owner benefit level

MORE SAVINGS
with villa rental discounts and last-minute points reservations

MORE SIMPLICITY
and savings with consolidated Club Dues**

MORE TO COME
as we continue to look for ways to enhance your vacation ownership


 


WHAT STAYS THE SAME

Enjoy your same Home Resort Reservation Period Usage options in the VSN

Ability to convert to Marriott Bonvoy® points

Exchange through Interval International® Exceptional travel experiences you already love


 


COMING THIS FALL

Viewing your new Owner benefit level, your election value, and the ability to elect to receive Club Points to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in late October, 2022, for reservations beginning in 2023. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are available.


 


Visit vistana.com/abound for helpful information:

Explore more about Abound by Marriott Vacations. Watch helpful videos.
View answers to frequently asked questions.



 



* Subject to Terms and Conditions.

** The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for Owners in the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for members of the Vistana Signature Network). Club Dues encompass fees you currently pay a la carte, including your VSN fee, Interval International membership and internal exchange fees, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, reservation cancellation and rebooking fees, and more — all beginning with your 2023 Use Year.

©2022 Marriott Vacation Club International. All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands are not owned, developed, or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates. 21-303-1096820


----------



## kozykritter

dlca1 said:


> I’m a mandatory resale owner. Just got this email from vistana.  This makes me optimistic that mandatory resale will indeed get included
> 
> EXCITING NEWS FOR MEMBERS
> 
> YOUR VACATION LIFE KEEPS
> GETTING BETTER
> The Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is
> affiliating with the Abound by Marriott
> Vacations ™M exchange program. Through
> your membership in the VSN®, you will
> have more direct access to Marriott
> Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of
> unique travel experiences
> - all using the
> shared vacation currency of Club Points.*


Was that the entire email? They already said in their FAQs that resales would be eligible if they were in the VSN before 8/9. The question has been whether or not an enrollment fee or additional purchase would be required to convert that eligibility into actual enrollment in Abound. I'm guessing the email didn't say!


----------



## dlca1

kozykritter said:


> Was that the entire email? They already said in their FAQs that resales would be eligible if they were in the VSN before 8/9. The question has been whether or not an enrollment fee or additional purchase would be required to convert that eligibility into actual enrollment in Abound. I'm guessing the email didn't say!



Have edited my post to include the entire email. Definitely doesn't state anything concrete about enrollment fees.


----------



## kozykritter

dlca1 said:


> Have edited my post to include the entire email. Definitely doesn't state anything concrete about enrollment fees.


Thanks for doing that! Yep, the mystery continues....


----------



## CPNY

It’s interesting that the consensus is that mandatory resale units will be eligible for abound. Currently a mandatory resale in VSN cannot be used for cruises or bonvoy points conversions. In Abound, they can be used for those options.

I found it interesting in Brian’s video that he said that abound will allow “all of our owners” to use worldwide cruises, access to vacation home, and the portfolio of Marriott branded hotels. He also said nothing with your existing ownership changes. But as you can see, that’s a lie.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> It’s interesting that the consensus is that mandatory resale units will be eligible for abound. Currently a mandatory resale in VSN cannot be used for cruises or bonvoy points conversions. In Abound, they can be used for those options.
> 
> I found it interesting in Brian’s video that he said that abound will allow “all of our owners” to use worldwide cruises, access to vacation home, and the portfolio of Marriott branded hotels. He also said nothing with your existing ownership changes. But as you can see, that’s a lie.


One thing in the email he just posted that made me think about your post 8/9 resale situation is they defined a bit more what Club Dues are. It appears that the combined fee dues will also apply to ownerships that are not in Abound but are in the VSN. This is what I was guessing from the faq's which weren't quite as clear. And then I guess from there you can opt out of the combined fee and instead pay the standard 170 and all the transactional fees.

"The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for Owners in the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for members of the Vistana Signature Network). Club Dues encompass fees you currently pay a la carte, including your VSN fee, Interval International membership and internal exchange fees, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, reservation cancellation and rebooking fees, and more — all beginning with your 2023 Use Year."


----------



## TravelTime

dlca1 said:


> I’m a mandatory resale owner. Just got this email from vistana.  I wasn’t included on prior abound related mailings mentioned here on Tug. This makes me optimistic that mandatory resale will indeed get included. Perhaps this is a recent change.
> 
> EXCITING NEWS FOR MEMBERS
> 
> YOUR VACATION LIFE KEEPS GETTING BETTER
> The Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program. Through your membership in the
> 
> VSN®, you will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*
> 
> Message from Brian Miller, President, Vacation Ownership Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT’S NEW FOR YOU
> 
> Through the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program, you can look forward to:
> 
> MORE DIRECT ACCESS
> to Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties
> 
> MORE CHOICES
> for cruises, guided tours, hotels, car rentals, and more
> 
> MORE BENEFITS
> at your new Owner benefit level
> 
> MORE SAVINGS
> with villa rental discounts and last-minute points reservations
> 
> MORE SIMPLICITY
> and savings with consolidated Club Dues**
> 
> MORE TO COME
> as we continue to look for ways to enhance your vacation ownership
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT STAYS THE SAME
> 
> Enjoy your same Home Resort Reservation Period Usage options in the VSN
> 
> Ability to convert to Marriott Bonvoy® points
> 
> Exchange through Interval International® Exceptional travel experiences you already love
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMING THIS FALL
> 
> Viewing your new Owner benefit level, your election value, and the ability to elect to receive Club Points to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in late October, 2022, for reservations beginning in 2023. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visit vistana.com/abound for helpful information:
> 
> Explore more about Abound by Marriott Vacations. Watch helpful videos.
> View answers to frequently asked questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Subject to Terms and Conditions.
> 
> ** The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for Owners in the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for members of the Vistana Signature Network). Club Dues encompass fees you currently pay a la carte, including your VSN fee, Interval International membership and internal exchange fees, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, reservation cancellation and rebooking fees, and more — all beginning with your 2023 Use Year.
> 
> ©2022 Marriott Vacation Club International. All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands are not owned, developed, or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates. 21-303-1096820



It makes it clear that what stays the same is home resort usage. Interesting it says exchanging with II stays the same but nothing about exchanging with SOs through VSN. I guess Denise’s contact was right about the dismantling of VSN/SOs.


----------



## timsi

I received the email as well and I just wathec


CPNY said:


> It’s interesting that the consensus is that mandatory resale units will be eligible for abound. Currently a mandatory resale in VSN cannot be used for cruises or bonvoy points conversions. In Abound, they can be used for those options.
> 
> I found it interesting in Brian’s video that he said that abound will allow “all of our owners” to use worldwide cruises, access to vacation home, and the portfolio of Marriott branded hotels. He also said nothing with your existing ownership changes. *But as you can see, that’s a lie.*


The person who wrote the script and approved to release the video is either incompetent or secretly works for the competition.


----------



## timsi

deleted


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> It’s interesting that the consensus is that mandatory resale units will be eligible for abound. Currently a mandatory resale in VSN cannot be used for cruises or bonvoy points conversions. In Abound, they can be used for those options.
> 
> I found it interesting in Brian’s video that he said that abound will allow “all of our owners” to use worldwide cruises, access to vacation home, and the portfolio of Marriott branded hotels. He also said nothing with your existing ownership changes. But as you can see, that’s a lie.


FYI - You can't convert elected Club/Abound points to Bonvoy points... You can only exchange your ownership once and that's what you're doing when you elect the Club/Abound points. To exchange your ownership for Bonvoy points, you have to do it in the program where your ownership resides.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> One thing in the email he just posted that made me think about your post 8/9 resale situation is they defined a bit more what Club Dues are. It appears that the combined fee dues will also apply to ownerships that are not in Abound but are in the VSN. This is what I was guessing from the faq's which weren't quite as clear. And then I guess from there you can opt out of the combined fee and instead pay the standard 170 and all the transactional fees.
> 
> "The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for Owners in the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for members of the Vistana Signature Network). Club Dues encompass fees you currently pay a la carte, including your VSN fee, Interval International membership and internal exchange fees, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, reservation cancellation and rebooking fees, and more — all beginning with your 2023 Use Year."


I’m still confused. So I’ll be paying 270 + 170?! I was under the impression that the 270 fee would include all pre and post 8/9 but the 8/9 resale cannot be converted into abound club points.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> I’m still confused. So I’ll be paying 270 + 170?! I was under the impression that the 270 fee would include all pre and post 8/9 but the 8/9 resale cannot be converted into abound club points.


We can't say for sure because their guidance is not very well worded but no it should just be one fee that covers everything in the VSN regardless of Abound participation for a particular ownership. They have been mostly silent about how they are going to treat post 8/9 resales in general as you know.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> FYI - You can't convert elected Club/Abound points to Bonvoy points... You can only exchange your ownership once and that's what you're doing when you elect the Club/Abound points. To exchange your ownership for Bonvoy points, you have to do it in the program where your ownership resides.


I never said you could. According to Brian, the bonvoy point conversion is part of abound for all owners. It almost sounds like they are “retro” every mandatory resale automatically. If that’s the case that would be a huge gift and for that reason I’m completely skeptical that mandatory resale units are getting a free play into the abound program.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> We can't say for sure because their guidance is not very well worded but no it should just be one fee that covers everything in the VSN regardless of Abound participation for a particular ownership. They have been mostly silent about how they are going to treat post 8/9 resales in general as you know.


I thought I read that if you have abound VOI’s and VOI’s not in abound but in VSN, you’ll pay one club dues for all


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> It’s interesting that the consensus is that mandatory resale units will be eligible for abound. Currently a mandatory resale in VSN cannot be used for cruises or bonvoy points conversions. In Abound, they can be used for those options.
> 
> I found it interesting in Brian’s video that he said that abound will allow “all of our owners” to use worldwide cruises, access to vacation home, and the portfolio of Marriott branded hotels. He also said nothing with your existing ownership changes. But as you can see, that’s a lie.


If true then that’s an incentive to get mandatory resale into abound by offering what they cannot get in VSN. Except the catch is that you are loosing value except Maui. Then you will want to buy more points when you realize this. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## MICROZE

Red elephant said:


> If true then that’s an incentive to *get mandatory resale into abound by offering what they cannot get in VSN*. Except the catch is that you are loosing value except Maui. Then you will want to buy more points when you realize this. Just my 2 cents.


After reading multiple posts in this thread [and many others], it appears that Marriott is desperate to get *Mandatory-Resales* into the Abound program.

I assume there is good reason for multiple people making this assertion.
I assume the reason is based on data like *"Large %-Age [50-70%] of Mandatory-Contracts are resale". *Does someone from TUG have this data? Insider?
If a large %-Age of Mandatory-Contracts are Developer-Purchased or Retroed, why would Marriott be so desperate to offer any incentives for Mandatory-*Resale* Contracts?


----------



## Jimmyboy

Grandma2016 said:


> But the 13 month doesnt count towards inventory a vistana owner has rights to in home reservation period???   Im so confused on this


 
My biggest concern as a vsn owner who booked the majority of our time through VSN exchange 8 mo window will be availability of desired destinations.  This was also emphasized by sales people in our updates the past couple of years especially for Maui.  The internal allocations including their own daily fee rentals has me confused and concerned.


----------



## ocdb8r

Red elephant said:


> If true then that’s an incentive to get mandatory resale into abound by offering what they cannot get in VSN. Except the catch is that you are loosing value except Maui. Then you will want to buy more points when you realize this. Just my 2 cents.





MICROZE said:


> After reading multiple posts in this thread [and many others], it appears that Marriott is desperate to get *Mandatory-Resales* into the Abound program.
> 
> I assume there is good reason for multiple people making this assertion.
> I assume the reason is based on data like *"Large %-Age [50-70%] of Mandatory-Contracts are resale". *Does someone from TUG have this data? Insider?
> If a large %-Age of Mandatory-Contracts are Developer-Purchased or Retroed, why would Marriott be so desperate to offer any incentives for Mandatory-*Resale* Contracts?


A couple of reactions:

1) you are not losing any value by becoming part of Abound; value may be lost if you decide to elect points (but that is debatable) and the overall value of VSN could be affected if large numbers of others choose to elect points (but this is regardless of any individual being "in" Abound as it's actual "participation" that matters);

2) the "incentives" previously flagged were things like cruise and Bonvoy point exchanges.  I would argue the incentive here is for MVC as I suspect they get a benefit from this sort of "participation";

3) I think MICROZE likely hits on the main motivation; MVC knows from experience that the more owners that are part of the program, the greater success they have in upselling.  Remember, TUG represents a minority of the overall Owner population.  Many will be excited to get some access to MVC properties (even if at the cost of some loss of value if they elect their VOI for Abound points in any given year) and as such may be more likely to buy additional points to improve overall access.

#3 is why I have tended to try to be more balanced on my view of this whole "Abound" project; I do not think MVC has designed any of this to marginalize VSN owners.  There of course may be some fallout, but I honestly believe MVC has structured this to provide the greatest opportunity for "engagement" with all current owners to support future upsales.


----------



## timsi

If you are member of an exclusive club, it won’t be the same when members of other clubs start to have the same benefits that you enjoy exclusively now. If you own a townhouse and you enjoy your privacy, it won’t be the same if other units begin to have access to property that is exclusively yours. The right to have exclusive access to the inventory for the first 4 months is important to many Vistana owners (and an integral part of the VSN and resort documents) and this has changed despite the public claim that nothing has changed.

The question is if this is one of the benefits they can change out of the blue (like the elite benefits) or it is a feature that is deeply rooted into how the ownership was structured and sold.


----------



## pchung6

The more I think about VSN and Abound, it leads me to think this is what Marriott will do.

Marriott will manage the inventory in both VSN and Abound for their advantage. Use Westin Ka’anapali as example. When an owner elects points, Marriott can take an July 4th week or president week away from VSN, then put the high value week in Abound for higher point. Marriott will leave bad weeks like April Maui weeks in VSN which cost the same 148k or 81k as July weeks under VSN. The same 148k or 81k July week will be super expensive under Abound. This way, Marriott kills two birds with one stone. They provide availability to VSN inventory with bad weeks. Then sell the good weeks high in Abound to manage the imbalance.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I am not convinced that MVC will be nefarious. 

However, I am a bit skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees and the elite benefits. I do not believe this is a free lunch. 

The tell for me is the point in the Abound email we received in which they state that we will continue to be able to convert to Bonvoy. As resale owner we have never been able to convert.


----------



## Grandma2016

timsi said:


> If you are member of an exclusive club, it won’t be the same when members of other clubs start to have the same benefits that you enjoy exclusively now. If you own a townhouse and you enjoy your privacy, it won’t be the same if other units begin to have access to property that is exclusively yours. The right to have exclusive access to the inventory for the first 4 months is important to many Vistana owners (and an integral part of the VSN and resort documents) and this has changed despite the public claim that nothing has changed.
> 
> The question is if this is one of the benefits they can change out of the blue (like the elite benefits) or it is a feature that is deeply rooted into how the ownership was structured and sold.


The exclusuve right is dimished for those of us who are owners because we will have more competition at the 8 to 12 month home booking window??


----------



## pchung6

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not convinced that MVC will be nefarious.
> 
> However, I am a bit skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees and the elite benefits. I do not believe this is a free lunch.
> 
> The tell for me is the point in the Abound email we received in which they state that we will continue to be able to convert to Bonvoy. As resale owner we have never been able to convert.


I’m highly skeptical resale mandatory will be free too. They said everyone can join, but didn’t mention  there is enrollment fees. There is also an opt out option that bothers me. If we don’t pay additional points, it means we opt out? We will find out soon.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> The more I think about VSN and Abound, it leads me to think this is what Marriott will do.
> 
> Marriott will manage the inventory in both VSN and Abound for their advantage. Use Westin Ka’anapali as example. When an owner elects points, Marriott can take an July 4th week or president week away from VSN, then put the high value week in Abound for higher point. Marriott will leave bad weeks like April Maui weeks in VSN which cost the same 148k or 81k as July weeks under VSN. The same 148k or 81k July week will be super expensive under Abound. This way, Marriott kills two birds with one stone. They provide availability to VSN inventory with bad weeks. Then sell the good weeks high in Abound to manage the imbalance.


This is exactly what most VSN are worried about.  We have every right to believe scenarios like this will happen. Of course it’s to the Marriott owners benefit if that does happens. Maybe that’s what they are all on here telling vistana owners to stop complaining, “WE bought YOU”. They already know this is what Marriott will be doing.


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not convinced that MVC will be nefarious.
> 
> However, I am a bit skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees and the elite benefits. I do not believe this is a free lunch.
> 
> The tell for me is the point in the Abound email we received in which they state that we will continue to be able to convert to Bonvoy. As resale owner we have never been able to convert.


If resale mandatory owners are not included, then Marriott effectively killed the VSN with abound. In which case, many of us skeptics and conspiracy theorists were correct for the past 4 years. This is the one time I’m hoping I was wrong.

I would love to know this. In the ten days between 8/9 and 8/19 was anyone offered an option to retro a vistana resale with a new purchase? Technically a VOI retro’d on 8/12 wouldn’t qualify for Abound as it wasn’t in the VSN prior to 8/9.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not convinced that MVC will be nefarious.
> 
> However, I am a bit skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees and the elite benefits. I do not believe this is a free lunch.
> 
> The tell for me is the point in the Abound email we received in which they state that we will continue to be able to convert to Bonvoy. As resale owner we have never been able to convert.



Think of it this way, in 2010 with the DC launch, resale owners prior to 6/20/2010 were also given full access to the DC on the same basic terms as Direct buyers, including what is now called BonVoy. The main difference was MVC charged everyone a small enrollment fee in 2010 (resale paid a slightly higher fee) whereas they have said they are not doing a fee for VSN in 2022. In 2010, only post-6/20/2010 resales had to pay big to play.

So, given that history, it’s not surprising to me if VSN Mandatory prior to 8/9/2022 are also allowed to play on similar terms to Direct buyers, if that is what is finally proven to be the case this year. Post-8/9/2022 Mandatory will have to pay up at some point if they want Abound, as will non-mandatory weeks.

For VSN mandatory resales, 8/9/2022 might be just like 6/20/2010 was for MVC resale weeks.


----------



## timsi

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not convinced that MVC will be nefarious.
> 
> However, I am a bit skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees and the elite benefits. I do not believe this is a free lunch.
> 
> The tell for me is the point in the Abound email we received in which they state that we will continue to be able to convert to Bonvoy. As resale owner we have never been able to convert.



I am skeptical too. 
"Eligible VOIs:

Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*
Why did they have to add "*will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*?

***********************************************************************************************************************
Before posting, I checked the current info on the website and it is:


Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.

To me it sounds like there is an additional step before you can play in Abound and the resale ownership is not necessarily counted automatically for the benefit level.


----------



## andysnovel

I own 104,100 staroptions (flex points) thru direct purchase with Sheraton Vacation Club and 81,000 star options Bella thru resale several years ago. With 185,100 star options to convert to Marriott CLUB POINTS would that qualify me to be grandfathered into Executive Level in Abound? Vistana does not recognize Bella resale for status qualification but it appears Abound will.


----------



## blondietink

I guess it would depend on whether your resale week was purchased from an "authorized" resale seller.  Who is an authorized resale seller anyway?


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> If you are member of an exclusive club, it won’t be the same when members of other clubs start to have the same benefits that you enjoy exclusively now. If you own a townhouse and you enjoy your privacy, it won’t be the same if other units begin to have access to property that is exclusively yours. The right to have exclusive access to the inventory for the first 4 months is important to many Vistana owners (and an integral part of the VSN and resort documents) and this has changed despite the public claim that nothing has changed.


The "exclusivity" you refer to was a total illusion (perhaps created by salespeople).  The documentation is clear; the ONLY exclusivity you have is to complete with other owners of your resort (or resort group, in the case of flex) for reservations during the 8-12 month period (and to be clear, even that is illusory as your resort Board has the flexibility to make the rules surrounding reservations).  Your claim that "this has changed despite the public claim that nothing has changed" is simply factually incorrect.  

1) your usage rights for your home resort have remained the same; 

2) MVC has not changed any of the rights it has had all along (and VSN before them) to "*forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Program Members through the Program in its sole discretion*."  This has always existed and is how VSN II allocations and rental pool allocations worked.  All MVC has done with Abound is increase the exchange options available to owners to a wider pool (the MVC resorts) via Abound, meaning they will now have those same rights as regards II, rental pool AND Abound.  It will all be dependent on VSN owners actually electing their VOI for Abound points and Marriott has always had an independent auditor come in to audit how it has done these allocations.



timsi said:


> The question is if this is one of the benefits they can change out of the blue (like the elite benefits) or it is a feature that is deeply rooted into how the ownership was structured and sold.


This has also already been clearly answered in the negative.  Just read your ownership docs and CCRs - they permit VSN these same rights.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Think of it this way, in 2010 with the DC launch, resale owners prior to 6/20/2010 were also given full access to the DC on the same basic terms as Direct buyers, including what is now called BonVoy. The main difference was MVC charged everyone a small enrollment fee in 2010 (resale paid a slightly higher fee) whereas they have said they are not doing a fee for VSN in 2022. In 2010, only post-6/20/2010 resales had to pay big to play.
> 
> So, given that history, it’s not surprising to me if VSN Mandatory prior to 8/9/2022 are also allowed to play on similar terms to Direct buyers, if that is what is finally proven to be the case this year. Post-8/9/2022 Mandatory will have to pay up at some point if they want Abound, as will non-mandatory weeks.
> 
> For VSN mandatory resales, 8/9/2022 might be just like 6/20/2010 was for MVC resale weeks.


The only difference is 8/9 is just some random date they picked. It would have been better if they used the actual date they released actual Terms and Conditions of the program.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I am skeptical too.
> "Eligible VOIs:
> 
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*
> Why did they have to add "*will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*?
> 
> ***********************************************************************************************************************
> Before posting, I checked the current info on the website and it is:
> 
> 
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
> 
> To me it sounds like there is an additional step before you can play in Abound and the resale ownership is not necessarily counted automatically for the benefit level.


This is also covered in the FAQs posted.  It makes clear that your benefit level will be "_...calculated based on the *eligible *VOIs in which they are named on a deed._"  Actual election of points is not flagged (and operationally this would be a nightmare for MVC as they would have to re-calculate and flag a new benefit level for every owner every year after the election deadline).  In addition, the "election" of points is not a new concept as MVC weeks owners have the same rights (and their benefit level is based on the eligible weeks....not actual election.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> I am skeptical too.
> "Eligible VOIs:
> 
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*
> Why did they have to add "*will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level."*?
> 
> ***********************************************************************************************************************
> Before posting, I checked the current info on the website and it is:
> 
> 
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer *will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
> 
> To me it sounds like there is an additional step before you can play in Abound and the resale ownership is not necessarily counted automatically for the benefit level.


Interesting. Did they change it from “will be able to elect to receive club points” to “will be given the opportunity”?? It seems that the FAQ’s released can/will change as they see fit. Typical Marriott.

it also seems that Brian may have lied again… “All owners can exchange for cruises and bonvoy hotels”. The rollout of Abound is horrendous.


----------



## andysnovel

blondietink said:


> I guess it would depend on whether your resale week was purchased from an "authorized" resale seller.  Who is an authorized resale seller anyway?


If the resale was purchased before 8\9\22 it can be purchased from an unauthorized vendor.


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> FYI - You can't convert elected Club/Abound points to Bonvoy points... You can only exchange your ownership once and that's what you're doing when you elect the Club/Abound points. To exchange your ownership for Bonvoy points, you have to do it in the program where your ownership resides.



Resales in MVC could never convert to club points. My resale weeks are enrolled and from what I recall, I can’t convert to Bonvoy points. Few people do that anyway.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> The "exclusivity" you refer to was a total illusion (perhaps created by salespeople).  The documentation is clear; the ONLY exclusivity you have is to complete with other owners of your resort (or resort group, in the case of flex) for reservations during the 8-12 month period (and to be clear, even that is illusory as your resort Board has the flexibility to make the rules surrounding reservations).  Your claim that "this has changed despite the public claim that nothing has changed" is simply factually incorrect.
> 
> 1) your usage rights for your home resort have remained the same;
> 
> 2) MVC has not changed any of the rights it has had all along (and VSN before them) to "*forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Program Members through the Program in its sole discretion*."  This has always existed and is how VSN II allocations and rental pool allocations worked.  All MVC has done with Abound is increase the exchange options available to owners to a wider pool (the MVC resorts) via Abound, meaning they will now have those same rights as regards II, rental pool AND Abound.  It will all be dependent on VSN owners actually electing their VOI for Abound points and Marriott has always had an independent auditor come in to audit how it has done these allocations.
> 
> 
> This has also already been clearly answered in the negative.  Just read your ownership docs and CCRs - they permit VSN these same rights.


It appears we may have a disagreement about what this means:

"Home Resort Float Period for Network Weeks Resorts. At Network Weeks Resorts, during
the Home Resort Float Period, Network Members have the exclusive right to reserve a Vacation Period in their Home
Resorts without competition from Network Members in other Network Resorts"

You seem to know a lot about how things work inside Marriott. Have you seen any of these audits concerning how the allocation is done?


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> Interesting. Did they change it from “will be able to elect to receive club points” to* “will be given the opportunity”*?? It seems that the FAQ’s released can/will change as they see fit. Typical Marriott.
> 
> it also seems that Brian may have lied again… “All owners can exchange for cruises and bonvoy hotels”. The rollout of Abound is horrendous.



*"will be given the opportunity" *is the current version. I am not sure if there are other versions in different sections on the site, but this is the only one I can find now.


----------



## TravelTime

With 2700-2800 Abound points (I believe this is 81,000 SOs), there are many 1-BR units as well as great studio locations in a variety of locations where you can stay in the Abound system IF you happen to be interested in going to more locations outside the VSN universe.

You can also now book 2700-2800 Abound points (formerly 81,000 SOs) at 13 months. You can get a studio for 2700 points OV or 2925 OF at Maui Ocean Club in many shoulder seasons and a few high season times of the year and a 1BR IV for 2525 points, which is the same or better than you can get for 81,000 SOs. You can rent some points to make up the any differences needed to stay in any locations you want. And you can book at 13 months vs waiting for SOs in Maui at 8 months, which is hard to get with SOs anyway. Also you are not super likely to get OV or OF through SOs because you can’t select the view. (Using Maui Ocean Club as an example bc it is most comparable to WKOVRN but there are many Abound locations that are more cost effective with Abound points.) I know many VSN people are not interested in going anywhere outside of Vistana or the advantages of Abound but you may want to study the Abound charts just in case.

I do not study all the charts for SOs mainly because there are only a few places that I consider to be good for us, which are 2BR units in Atlantis, Hawaii (non-WKOVR/non-WKOVRN), Cancun and St John.

For 81,000 SOs at the above locations, you can mainly get 1BRs in off season with NO view selection. 1BRs without view choices do not fit my needs. That also requires breaking up my 2BR WKOVRN and getting 1BRs on both sides, which is not an effective use of my SOs. I even lost some SOs even with 2 year banking because travel choices that I wanted were limited at 8 months.

Other than the above VSN locations, I have never been interested in SOs at all. I am a huge planner so hoping to book anywhere at 8 months disrupts my  planning esp if I do not find what I want fairly quickly i.e. not having to check back to frequently.

I know you can stretch 81,000 in other VSN locations and many people bought traders in Orlando and Kierland to have some arbitrage in the VSN with SOs. It was not really a good idea to purchase a timeshare for arbitrage opportunities. But if you really want the VSN locations, you can stick with SOs at 8 months and you can stretch your SOs. I know there are many ways within VSN to stretch your SOs outside of my favored locations but those locations are worth a low amount of points in Abound too.

LIKE YOU GUYS I ALSO PURCHASED VISTANA FOR SO TRADING, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. Then I learned AFTER MY VISTANA PURCHASE that VSN really did not work for me and stopped using SOs. That is why I am excited to be able to elect Abound points. Even if I only had 81,000 SOs, I would still elect Abound points.

IF free enrollment of mandatory resale Vistana resorts ends up not being true, I will not enroll my Vistana week for big bucks.

I know there is some skim in Abound but it is unlikely you will select Abound to book your home resort. I WILL NOT USE ABOUND POINTS TO BOOK MY HOME RESORT DUE TO THE SKIM. I WILL STICK WITH VSN FOR MY HOME RESORT. I am pretty certain reserving your home resort at 12 months in VSN will NOT dry up Because Marriott has always left a lot of availability for MVC owners to book using Abound points at 12 months. I doubt Marriott will not do the same for Vistana owners.

I know many people are worried using SOs at 8 months will dry up. This is really a wait and see of how many Vistana owners select to elect Abound points because they find Abound to more MORE attactive to them. Vistana owners who elect Abound points probably see the new Abound program as an upgrade offering MORE travel options. I assume those Vistana owners consider this to be a GOOD thing that Marriott is offering, not a bad things.


----------



## kyaustin

CPNY said:


> Interesting. Did they change it from “will be able to elect to receive club points” to “will be given the opportunity”?? It seems that the FAQ’s released can/will change as they see fit. Typical Marriott.
> 
> it also seems that Brian may have lied again… “All owners can exchange for cruises and bonvoy hotels”. The rollout of Abound is horrendous.



I wouldn't call it horrendous; there's a lot of complexity and you're guessing on unknowns as we all are, I'm sure some things are not the greatest for VSN members (like banking) and other things are better.  As the days/weeks go by, we learn more about it.  Now MVC's IT is horrendous, that I can agree with.  

If I recall correctly, are you the one who had a VSN resale register in their system 10 days past the August 'cut off' date?  I get you're not happy with that cutoff date, that it should have been the same date they released the FAQs, but I didn't find this change to be a surprise and they've said all Spring it's coming....


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> It appears we may have a disagreement about what this means:
> 
> "Home Resort Float Period for Network Weeks Resorts. At Network Weeks Resorts, during
> the Home Resort Float Period, Network Members have the exclusive right to reserve a Vacation Period in their Home
> Resorts without competition from Network Members in other Network Resorts"


Your right to book in your home resort period should be unaffected, and this portion of the rules you've cited isn't being violated. When owners elect for Abound points, they transfer their exclusive right to reserve in the home resort period to the Abound exchange.  That owner can then book anything within the exchange - so you still have the same amount of competition.  Similarly, because the exchange now has the exclusive right to reserve a home week, they can do so.  

The transfer of a right doesn't reduce overall availability. I think the salespeople have done too good of a job in selling this reduced availability story and some are buying it.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Grandma2016 said:


> The exclusuve right is dimished for those of us who are owners because we will have more competition at the 8 to 12 month home booking window??


From who?


----------



## kozykritter

JIMinNC said:


> Think of it this way, in 2010 with the DC launch, resale owners prior to 6/20/2010 were also given full access to the DC on the same basic terms as Direct buyers, including what is now called BonVoy. The main difference was MVC charged everyone a small enrollment fee in 2010 (resale paid a slightly higher fee) whereas they have said they are not doing a fee for VSN in 2022. In 2010, only post-6/20/2010 resales had to pay big to play.
> 
> So, given that history, it’s not surprising to me if VSN Mandatory prior to 8/9/2022 are also allowed to play on similar terms to Direct buyers, if that is what is finally proven to be the case this year. Post-8/9/2022 Mandatory will have to pay up at some point if they want Abound, as will non-mandatory weeks.
> 
> For VSN mandatory resales, 8/9/2022 might be just like 6/20/2010 was for MVC resale weeks.


There has been no official information given so far saying there will be no fee for mandatory resales to enroll in Abound. Nor has there been any saying there would be one. Everything is open to interpretation until they tell us something real!

Saying an ownership is eligible doesn't mean they are enrolled. We are all eligible to own a Lamborghini too. But further action will be required to make that eligibility turn into actual use of one!    That may well be the case for all ownerships deemed eligible ala MVC's 2010 DC launch.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> Your right to book in your home resort period should be unaffected, and this portion of the rules you've cited isn't being violated. When owners elect for Abound points, they transfer their exclusive right to reserve in the home resort period to the Abound exchange.  That owner can then book anything within the exchange - so you still have the same amount of competition.  Similarly, because the exchange now has the exclusive right to reserve a home week, they can do so.
> 
> The transfer of a right doesn't reduce overall availability. I think the salespeople have done too good of a job in selling this reduced availability story and some are buying it.


It seems you also have a different point of view about what  "*without competition *from Network Members *in other Network Resorts*" means. To me it sounds like your rights cannot be transferred to members from other resorts even when you deposit your VOI to that network. What you are saying goes 100% against the spirit of this clause.


----------



## dsmrp

dlca1 said:


> I’m a mandatory resale owner. Just got this email from vistana.  I wasn’t included on prior abound related mailings mentioned here on Tug. This makes me optimistic that mandatory resale will indeed get included. Perhaps this is a recent change.
> 
> EXCITING NEWS FOR MEMBERS
> 
> YOUR VACATION LIFE KEEPS GETTING BETTER
> The Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program. Through your membership in the
> 
> VSN®, you will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*
> 
> Message from Brian Miller, President, Vacation Ownership Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT’S NEW FOR YOU
> 
> Through the Abound by Marriott VacationsTM exchange program, you can look forward to:
> 
> MORE DIRECT ACCESS
> to Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties
> 
> MORE CHOICES
> for cruises, guided tours, hotels, car rentals, and more
> 
> MORE BENEFITS
> at your new Owner benefit level
> 
> MORE SAVINGS
> with villa rental discounts and last-minute points reservations
> 
> MORE SIMPLICITY
> and savings with consolidated Club Dues**
> 
> MORE TO COME
> as we continue to look for ways to enhance your vacation ownership
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT STAYS THE SAME
> 
> Enjoy your same Home Resort Reservation Period Usage options in the VSN
> 
> Ability to convert to Marriott Bonvoy® points
> 
> Exchange through Interval International® Exceptional travel experiences you already love
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMING THIS FALL
> 
> Viewing your new Owner benefit level, your election value, and the ability to elect to receive Club Points to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in late October, 2022, for reservations beginning in 2023. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visit vistana.com/abound for helpful information:
> 
> Explore more about Abound by Marriott Vacations. Watch helpful videos.
> View answers to frequently asked questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Subject to Terms and Conditions.
> 
> ** The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for Owners in the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for members of the Vistana Signature Network). Club Dues encompass fees you currently pay a la carte, including your VSN fee, Interval International membership and internal exchange fees, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, reservation cancellation and rebooking fees, and more — all beginning with your 2023 Use Year.
> 
> ©2022 Marriott Vacation Club International. All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands are not owned, developed, or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates. 21-303-1096820


I have both  direct buy and retro'd units, and also received the same email yesterday.

Note in the message the change to late October for operational usage.
"_the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in late October, 2022, for reservations beginning in 2023."_

Hopefully Marriott won't change how much of their inventory will be in VSN the couple months before. For star options 8 mos ressies that's just May-mid June, shoulder season time.


----------



## vacationtime1

timsi said:


> It seems you also have a different point of view about what  "*without competition *from Network Members *in other Network Resorts*" means. To me it sounds like your rights cannot be transferred to members from other resorts even when you deposit your VOI to that network. What you are saying goes 100% against the spirit of this clause.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about that.


----------



## Grandma2016

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> From who?


Im guessing marriott club point owners


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> With 2700-2800 Abound points (I believe this is 81,000 SOs), there are many 1-BR units as well as great studio locations in a variety of locations where you can stay in the Abound system IF you happen to be interested in going to more locations outside the VSN universe.
> 
> You can also now book 2700-2800 Abound points (formerly 81,000 SOs) at 13 months. You can get a studio for 2700 points OV or 2925 OF at Maui Ocean Club in many shoulder seasons and a few high season times of the year and a 1BR IV for 2525 points, which is the same or better than you can get for 81,000 SOs. You can rent some points to make up the any differences needed to stay in any locations you want. And you can book at 13 months vs waiting for SOs in Maui at 8 months, which is hard to get with SOs anyway. Also you are not super likely to get OV or OF through SOs because you can’t select the view. (Using Maui Ocean Club as an example bc it is most comparable to WKOVRN but there are many Abound locations that are more cost effective with Abound points.) I know many VSN people are not interested in going anywhere outside of Vistana or the advantages of Abound but you may want to study the Abound charts just in case.
> 
> I do not study all the charts for SOs mainly because there are only a few places that I consider to be good for us, which are 2BR units in Atlantis, Hawaii (non-WKOVR/non-WKOVRN), Cancun and St John.
> 
> For 81,000 SOs at the above locations, you can mainly get 1BRs in off season with NO view selection. 1BRs without view choices do not fit my needs. That also requires breaking up my 2BR WKOVRN and getting 1BRs on both sides, which is not an effective use of my SOs. I even lost some SOs even with 2 year banking because travel choices that I wanted were limited at 8 months.
> 
> Other than the above VSN locations, I have never been interested in SOs at all. I am a huge planner so hoping to book anywhere at 8 months disrupts my  planning esp if I do not find what I want fairly quickly i.e. not having to check back to frequently.
> 
> I know you can stretch 81,000 in other VSN locations and many people bought traders in Orlando and Kierland to have some arbitrage in the VSN with SOs. It was not really a good idea to purchase a timeshare for arbitrage opportunities. But if you really want the VSN locations, you can stick with SOs at 8 months and you can stretch your SOs. I know there are many ways within VSN to stretch your SOs outside of my favored locations but those locations are worth a low amount of points in Abound too.
> 
> LIKE YOU GUYS I ALSO PURCHASED VISTANA FOR SO TRADING, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. Then I learned AFTER MY VISTANA PURCHASE that VSN really did not work for me and stopped using SOs. That is why I am excited to be able to elect Abound points. Even if I only had 81,000 SOs, I would still elect Abound points.
> 
> IF free enrollment of mandatory resale Vistana resorts ends up not being true, I will not enroll my Vistana week for big bucks.
> 
> I know there is some skim in Abound but it is unlikely you will select Abound to book your home resort. I WILL NOT USE ABOUND POINTS TO BOOK MY HOME RESORT DUE TO THE SKIM. I WILL STICK WITH VSN FOR MY HOME RESORT. I am pretty certain reserving your home resort at 12 months in VSN will NOT dry up Because Marriott has always left a lot of availability for MVC owners to book using Abound points at 12 months. I doubt Marriott will not do the same for Vistana owners.
> 
> I know many people are worried using SOs at 8 months will dry up. This is really a wait and see of how many Vistana owners select to elect Abound points because they find Abound to more MORE attactive to them. Vistana owners who elect Abound points probably see the new Abound program as an upgrade offering MORE travel options. I assume those Vistana owners consider this to be a GOOD thing that Marriott is offering, not a bad things.


First, you can select your view with vistana. Also, Marriott studios are not equal to a vistana lockoff one bedroom/studio. So to say you can book a Marriott studio from a vistana two bedroom is a huge downgrade. 81K SO will get you a one bedroom vistana any time of the year. it will also get you an OF studio any time if the year. Yes, it can be done. I booked Maui 3 times for people and every time I was able to get 7 nights in an OF one bedroom and studio.

what it sounds like to me is, you had a few unsuccessful attempts at booking with SO so you feel the whole system just doesn’t work. Many of us have been extremely successful with the VSN even at 8 months. The 61 day mark was also great because of the cancellation period. Not sure how things are in Marriott for last minute reservations.


----------



## timsi

vacationtime1 said:


> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about that.


So you are saying that if VSN had started trading at 12 months and had access to your WKORV-OF at teh same time with you, you would still see the home reservation period the same and you had no problem with that. If that's the case, the home reservation period is completely meaningless, but I do not think it is supposed to work like that.


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> It seems you also have a different point of view about what  "*without competition *from Network Members *in other Network Resorts*" means. To me it sounds like your rights cannot be transferred to members from other resorts even when you deposit your VOI to that network. What you are saying goes 100% against the spirit of this clause.


Here the "Network" being referred to is VSN.  VSN members in other Network Resorts cannot book in the 8-12 month window through VSN, they have to wait until the 8-month mark.


----------



## Jimmyboy

Against my Platinum Plus 2 bed Kierland 148,100- Abound 4050 if I can't trade into Maui through the 8 mo window at VSN and can only book through Abound will cost me 6200 for a ocean view.  That is a 53% increase...


----------



## vacationtime1

timsi said:


> So you are saying that if VSN had started trading at 12 months and had access to your WKORV-OF at teh same time with you, you would still see the home reservation period the same and you had no problem with that. If that's the case, the home reservation period is completely meaningless, but I do not think it is supposed to work like that.


What I am saying is that it doesn't affect *you* whether I reserve my WKORV-OF unit for myself or whether I assign it to Abound -- the week is no longer available to you and I am no longer competing with you for an OF week.


----------



## CPNY

kyaustin said:


> I wouldn't call it horrendous; there's a lot of complexity and you're guessing on unknowns as we all are, I'm sure some things are not the greatest for VSN members (like banking) and other things are better.  As the days/weeks go by, we learn more about it.  Now MVC's IT is horrendous, that I can agree with.
> 
> If I recall correctly, are you the one who had a VSN resale register in their system 10 days past the August 'cut off' date?  I get you're not happy with that cutoff date, that it should have been the same date they released the FAQs, but I didn't find this change to be a surprise and they've said all Spring it's coming....


They said it was coming from before the pandemic, so that argument is irrelevant and honestly I’m not even that mad about it. The rollout has been horrendous since they allowed they employees to use scare tactics to deceive owners. Filling sales offices with posters, balloons, and half baked points charts to scare owners with misinformation to make a sale is pretty bad.

Think about it, the balloons should have filled the sales offices on the day the FAQ’s and video released by Brian. But they didn’t do that. They put up a fan fare without anything in writing and used it to upsell us owners with “half truths” and “best guesses” as a sales tactic. Who wouldn’t believe them? There are balloons and banners and everything!

Truthfully I don’t care about that last resale because my others are before 8/9 and I would never convert everything I own to abound anyway so it’s not really that big of a deal as I’ll use that for SO or interval as I have in the past. Even with all of my other resales I’ll still be at executive assuming they allow resales in without a fee.

They could have done a better job rolling this out.


----------



## jabberwocky

Jimmyboy said:


> Against my Platinum Plus 2 bed Kierland 148,100- Abound 4050 if I can't trade into Maui through the 8 mo window at VSN and can only book through Abound will cost me 6200 for a ocean view.  That is a 53% increase...


It's even worse. My SDO Plat that gives me 148,100 will only be worth 2375 in Abound.  It doesn't take a genius to guess which system I'll be using for that ownership!


----------



## timsi

vacationtime1 said:


> What I am saying is that it doesn't affect *you* whether I reserve my WKORV-OF unit for myself or whether I assign it to Abound -- the week is no longer available to you and I am no longer competing with you for an OF week.


But it affects *you* if Marriott decides to give 10, 15 or 30% of the available units of a particular week you want to book and is now available to members of that do not own at the resort. The home reservation period means you have exclusive access to all the units of any week of the calendar and what is left can be booked by others when the period is over. 

If you decide to deposit *A* week to an exchange it should not reduce the capacity of any other owner to access *ALL* units during the home reservation period. The non-owners can always book the leftovers, it is how I read it.


----------



## needvaca

We know that VSN inventory will be put into Abound when/if VSN owners elect to convert/deposit to Club points (or likely before), but we're all curious which inventory or weeks will actually enter the Marriott points system. 
So, I thought we long-time VSN owners could post our observations of the current VSN reservation system.

I own a few WKV platinum weeks.  I was able to make my March 2023 home reservation exactly at 12 months, but I then noticed shortly after the 12 month mark that the entire months of Feb and March showed unavailable on the reservation calendar.  I tested this out and indeed there were no more reservations available at all in Feb and March (the best months at Kierland with Spring Training).  This has never before happened in the last 10 years I've been making reservations.  Therefore, I'm pretty confident that Marriott scooped up all the remaining Feb and March WKV inventory to use in the Abound system when it launches.  Now, Marriott has made the Calendars unavailable, even for Home resort users (I believe on purpose), so that VSN users can't see this trend.

Also, availability for SBP Sheraton Broadway Plantation for all of July is more limited than I've ever seen it.  There is usually full availability (except July 4) until the 8 month period, but I bet Marriott scooped up some of those prime July weeks as well.

Have any of you noticed similar time periods blocked off for your home resorts for high Abound point value reservations?


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> It seems you also have a different point of view about what  "*without competition *from Network Members *in other Network Resorts*" means. To me it sounds like your rights cannot be transferred to members from other resorts even when you deposit your VOI to that network. What you are saying goes 100% against the spirit of this clause.





timsi said:


> So you are saying that if VSN had started trading at 12 months and had access to your WKORV-OF at teh same time with you, you would still see the home reservation period the same and you had no problem with that. If that's the case, the home reservation period is completely meaningless, but I do not think it is supposed to work like that.



I don't think any of this goes against the "spirit" of the clause, particularly where it's paired with the other clauses I posted about VSN/MVC having the right to "forecast" such exchange demand.  The point jabberwocky posts below is precisely the point; VSN/MVC can only compete with you during the home resort period to the extent actual VOI holders at your home resort (or in your home group for flex owners) have ceded their ownership rights TO VSN/MVC by electing abound points.  Therefore you have no MORE competition than you do now during that period.  The sole difference is VSN/MVC as the new holder of those rights have the ability to forecast such exchange activity (e.g. they have the right to use their professional judgment to create an estimate of how many owners will "elect" Abound points.  However, this has always been the case.




jabberwocky said:


> Here the "Network" being referred to is VSN.  VSN members in other Network Resorts cannot book in the 8-12 month window through VSN, they have to wait until the 8-month mark.





timsi said:


> But it affects *you* if Marriott decides to give 10, 15 or 30% of the available units of a particular week you want to book and is now available to members of that do not own at the resort. The home reservation period means you have exclusive access to all the units of any week of the calendar and what is left can be booked by others when the period is over.
> 
> If you decide to deposit *A* week to an exchange it should not reduce the capacity of any other owner to access *ALL* units during the home reservation period. The non-owners can always book the leftovers, it is how I read it.


...but that's just not the correct reading.  Why would MVC give something (Abound points) in return for diminished rights (which means only the leftovers)?


----------



## Ken555

jabberwocky said:


> It's even worse. My SDO Plat that gives me 148,100 will only be worth 2375 in Abound. It doesn't take a genius to guess which system I'll be using for that ownership!



That’s just an absurd valuation of that week. I get that the resort isn’t the same as WKV or even Marriott Canyon Villas nearby, and SDO now includes scorpions in the beds (as I can personally attest to when I was there last month), but in all other respects it is a great resort in a great location. Losing 50%+ of the trade capability within the internal network compared to VSN is just ridiculous.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

timsi said:


> But it affects *you* if Marriott decides to give 10, 15 or 30% of the available units of a particular week you want to book and is now available to members of that do not own at the resort. The home reservation period means you have exclusive access to all the units of any week of the calendar and what is left can be booked by others when the period is over.
> 
> If you decide to deposit *A* week to an exchange it should not reduce the capacity of any other owner to access *ALL* units during the home reservation period. The non-owners can always book the leftovers, it is how I read it.


How is that any different to someone depositing their ownership into II today?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> First, you can select your view with vistana. Also, Marriott studios are not equal to a vistana lockoff one bedroom/studio. So to say you can book a Marriott studio from a vistana two bedroom is a huge downgrade. 81K SO will get you a one bedroom vistana any time of the year. it will also get you an OF studio any time if the year. Yes, it can be done. I booked Maui 3 times for people and every time I was able to get 7 nights in an OF one bedroom and studio.
> 
> what it sounds like to me is, you had a few unsuccessful attempts at booking with SO so you feel the whole system just doesn’t work. Many of us have been extremely successful with the VSN even at 8 months. The 61 day mark was also great because of the cancellation period. Not sure how things are in Marriott for last minute reservations.



I am trying to offer ideas and solutions! I am not going to argue with you as there are some negatives. I will not select points either in certain scenarios. Heck I might get rid of my Vistana week altogether in some scenarios. 

One thing is I have not seen view options with SOs except 1 time in all the times I have looked. Other than Maui occasionally, which other VSN resorts offer a view option selection? I am curious if I missed it.

Nothing is perfect but it is not a catastrophe either. Vistana owners really do ignore that this is not a dive in shark infested waters but many people. Most sharks are harmless even great white sharks. LOL


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> The more I think about VSN and Abound, it leads me to think this is what Marriott will do.
> 
> Marriott will manage the inventory in both VSN and Abound for their advantage. Use Westin Ka’anapali as example. When an owner elects points, Marriott can take an July 4th week or president week away from VSN, then put the high value week in Abound for higher point. Marriott will leave bad weeks like April Maui weeks in VSN which cost the same 148k or 81k as July weeks under VSN. The same 148k or 81k July week will be super expensive under Abound. This way, Marriott kills two birds with one stone. They provide availability to VSN inventory with bad weeks. Then sell the good weeks high in Abound to manage the imbalance.


Were July 4th weeks usually available in VSN? I thought many event weeks were nearly impossible to book anyway?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I am trying to offer ideas and solutions! I am not going to argue with you as there are some negatives. I will not select points either in certain scenarios. Heck I might get rid of my Vistana week altogether in some scenarios. One thing is I have not seen view options with SOs except 1 time in all the times I have looked.
> 
> Nothing is perfect but it is not a catastrophe either. Vistana owners really do ignore that this is not a dive in shark infested waters but many people. Most sharks are harmless even great white sharks. LOL


They added the views a while back. You can now see different views and phases.


----------



## CPNY

Just spoke with a rep from vistana:

Who can actually participate?
“All ownerships that have star options usage can convert to club points”

Even though my ownerships are resale can I convert to CP’s?
”yes, it does look like your ownerships are in the VSN and can convert”

what about bonvoy points? Will I be able to convert my VOI to bonvoy points since that’s part of Abound?
“No, that’s something separate we have with bonvoy hotels”

I have another resale unit coming in post 8/9 will I be paying an additional club dues on that unit?
“As of right now, we don’t have the answer about dues if your resale was purchased after 8/9”
“assuming that if you aren’t eligible then you’ll still have your star options then you’ll probably have your VSN fee” 

so they increased the fee and took a year of banking away.
“yes unfortunately that’s the case”

when will we have concrete answers to all of these questions?
“emails should be coming out, we will be releasing information a little at a time. Hopefully there will be some more information sent out and next time you call we should have more information for you”

Question for the group…currently I cannot book cruises with Star Options. If I convert to club points, can I use those points to book cruises in the Abound exchange? What about villas of distinction or whatever they call their vacation homes? Is that something booked in the exchange as well?


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

needvaca said:


> We know that VSN inventory will be put into Abound when/if VSN owners elect to convert/deposit to Club points (or likely before), but we're all curious which inventory or weeks will actually enter the Marriott points system.
> So, I thought we long-time VSN owners could post our observations of the current VSN reservation system.
> 
> I own a few WKV platinum weeks.  I was able to make my March 2023 home reservation exactly at 12 months, but I then noticed shortly after the 12 month mark that the entire months of Feb and March showed unavailable on the reservation calendar.  I tested this out and indeed there were no more reservations available at all in Feb and March (the best months at Kierland with Spring Training).  This has never before happened in the last 10 years I've been making reservations.  Therefore, I'm pretty confident that Marriott scooped up all the remaining Feb and March WKV inventory to use in the Abound system when it launches.  Now, Marriott has made the Calendars unavailable, even for Home resort users (I believe on purpose), so that VSN users can't see this trend.
> 
> Also, availability for SBP Sheraton Broadway Plantation for all of July is more limited than I've ever seen it.  There is usually full availability (except July 4) until the 8 month period, but I bet Marriott scooped up some of those prime July weeks as well.
> 
> Have any of you noticed similar time periods blocked off for your home resorts for high Abound point value reservations?



I just looked at the 4th of July week for WKORV-N for 2023 and was surprised that here we are on August 30th 2022 and there are still 2BR/1BR/Studios available. I think that dispels the conspiracy theory that all 'prime' weeks are being 'stolen'. Maybe you were just experiencing the often seen technical glitches?


----------



## MICROZE

JIMinNC said:


> Think of it this way, in 2010 with the DC launch, resale owners prior to 6/20/2010 were also given full access to the DC on the same basic terms as Direct buyers, including what is now called BonVoy. The main difference was MVC charged everyone a small enrollment fee in 2010 (resale paid a slightly higher fee) whereas they have said they are not doing a fee for VSN in 2022. In 2010, only post-6/20/2010 resales had to pay big to play.
> 
> So, given that history, it’s not surprising to me if VSN Mandatory prior to 8/9/2022 are also allowed to play on similar terms to Direct buyers, if that is what is finally proven to be the case this year. Post-8/9/2022 *Mandatory will have to pay up at some point if they want Abound, as will non-mandatory weeks*.
> 
> For VSN mandatory resales, 8/9/2022 might be just like 6/20/2010 was for MVC resale weeks.


If Marriott emulates with VSN [8/8/2022] what they did in 2010, why only consider Mandatory-Resale? Why not *Non-Mandatory [Voluntary] ALL-Resale *too?


----------



## Red elephant

blondietink said:


> I guess it would depend on whether your resale week was purchased from an "authorized" resale seller.  Who is an authorized resale seller anyway?


I believe Marriott is an authorize resale seller.


----------



## JIMinNC

kozykritter said:


> There has been no official information given so far saying there will be no fee for mandatory resales to enroll in Abound. Nor has there been any saying there would be one. Everything is open to interpretation until they tell us something real!
> 
> Saying an ownership is eligible doesn't mean they are enrolled. We are all eligible to own a Lamborghini too. But further action will be required to that eligibility turn that into actual use of one!    That may well be the case for all ownerships deemed eligible ala MVC's 2010 DC launch.



I agree 100% - the language they are using is somewhat vague and open to interpretation - and no one knows the complete answer for sure. The point I was making was in response to @CalGalTraveler 's statement that she was "skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees." My point was, based on their behavior in 2010, when they treated pre-6/20/2010 resales pretty much on the same basis as Direct for enrollment purposes (resale just paid a higher fee), that it shouldn't surprise anyone if they do decide to follow the same basic model with pre-8/9/2022 resales in 2022 - i.e. - treating them on the same or similar basis as Direct.

When you think about it, given the significant differences between 2010 and 2022, it's also not all that surprising to me that they would forego enrollment fees altogether this time around. In 2010, MVC owners did not have a points program. All we had was II. We were getting a whole new and more flexible way to exchange usage, and from Day 1, they could sell DC points to any MVC owner by touting the benefits of points. All MVC owners were a fertile field to market a new points product too.

This time it's different. VSN owners already had a mature and successful points program, so the main thing that MVC can offer VSN owners with Abound, really, is access to resorts in some new places where VSN is not represented. In that environment, MVW management might have felt that it could be harder to sell VSN owners on the new points product, when they already had one they were happy with. The only way they will reap the long-term benefit from making the acquisition is to sell more Abound Club Points to VSN owners. I could see where management might have concluded that getting VSN owners into Abound, and potentially using it, was a better way to get VSN owners to see the benefits of buying more Abound Club Points versus a modest one-time revenue boost from charging an enrollment fee that would be a barrier to enrollment/use.

So, given the ambiguity, it's still somewhat unclear what their decision will be on pre-8/9/2022 resales, but given their past history, plus the differences in the current situation, it should not be all that surprising if they take a no-fee approach.



MICROZE said:


> If Marriott emulates with VSN [8/8/2022] what they did in 2010, why only consider Mandatory-Resale? Why not *Non-Mandatory [Voluntary] ALL-Resale *too?



That thought occurred to me as well, but MVC never had the mandatory/voluntary designation, so I'm not that familiar with how those have been treated in VSN over the years. I'm just guessing, but perhaps since those "voluntary" resale weeks never had StarOptions to begin with (I guess they thus weren't actually VSN members?) they were maybe more concerned with the VSN members who already had access to a points system ( i.e. mandatory owners), and whom had access to a points product written into their terms & conditions. I would suspect that at some point voluntary owners will be able to enroll by buying a bundle of Abound points just as post-6/2010 MVC owners can.


----------



## MICROZE

needvaca said:


> We know that VSN inventory will be put into Abound when/if VSN owners elect to convert/deposit to Club points (or likely before), but we're all curious which inventory or weeks will actually enter the Marriott points system.
> So, I thought we long-time VSN owners could post our observations of the current VSN reservation system.
> 
> I own a few WKV platinum weeks.  I was able to make my March 2023 home reservation exactly at 12 months, but I then *noticed shortly after the 12 month mark that the entire months of Feb and March showed unavailable on the reservation calendar*.  I tested this out and indeed there were no more reservations available at all in Feb and March (the best months at Kierland with Spring Training).  This has never before happened in the last 10 years I've been making reservations.  Therefore, I'm pretty confident that Marriott scooped up all the remaining Feb and March WKV inventory to use in the Abound system when it launches.  Now, Marriott has made the Calendars unavailable, even for Home resort users (I believe on purpose), so that VSN users can't see this trend.
> 
> Also, availability for SBP Sheraton Broadway Plantation for all of July is more limited than I've ever seen it.  There is usually full availability (except July 4) until the 8 month period, but I bet Marriott scooped up some of those prime July weeks as well.
> 
> Have any of you noticed similar time periods blocked off for your home resorts for high Abound point value reservations?


I have been monitoring WKV for the last 5+ years.
*This* [No Availability Feb/Mar shortly past the 12-Month timeline] has always been the case for the last few years.
Prime-Weeks [Month-Of-March] disappear at midnight of the 12-Month mark.
Prime-Weeks [Month-Of-Feb / Early-Apr] stick around a while but are gone by the 10-11-Month-Mark.
By the 8-Month-Mark there is usually ZERO availability for Feb/Mar and some availability for Apr 2nd week onwards.

*February*: 2023 is Superbowl, so all of Feb disappeared immediately at the 12-Month-Mark. Feb has WM-PGA + Presidents-Week.
*March*: Baseball-Spring-Training so that always disappears at the 12-Month-Mark. March has the Scottsdale-Rodeo + Barrett-Jackson.
*Early-April:* Easter, so that is gone quickly too.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Question for the group…currently I cannot book cruises with Star Options. If I convert to club points, can I use those points to book cruises in the Abound exchange? What about villas of distinction or whatever they call their vacation homes? Is that something booked in the exchange as well?



FWIW if history is any guide, using timeshares to exchange for a cruise will be a poor value proposition. For example, II cruise exchange values is not financially advantageous for the customer.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> Were July 4th weeks usually available in VSN? I thought many event weeks were nearly impossible to book anyway?


Because owners have no elect yet?


----------



## DanCali

Jimmyboy said:


> Against my Platinum Plus 2 bed Kierland 148,100- Abound 4050 if I can't trade into Maui through the 8 mo window at VSN and can only book through Abound will cost me 6200 for a ocean view.  That is a 53% increase...




Don't confuse the 6200 points an owner at WKORV gets when electing points (based on average needed to book a 1-50 week less skim) versus what it takes to book a week (which can be a different point amount for various months and holidays).

Those summer weeks you could get for 148,100* SOs will now be 7050 points, not 6200. But if you want to go when you can't go, then it's "only" 6075...

The good news is that if you own 2 WKV weeks, you can give up $9000+ in rental income, elect points for both, and you can now book any week of the year (except New Year's) in a 2BR OV. If you insist on OF view, you will unfortunately need some extra 1500-2000 points.





* I'll concede that that a 2BR in the summer is hard to get at 8 months out with Staroptions.


----------



## timsi

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> I just looked at the 4th of July week for WKORV-N for 2023 and was surprised that here we are on August 30th 2022 and there are still 2BR/1BR/Studios available. I think that dispels the conspiracy theory that all 'prime' weeks are being 'stolen'. Maybe you were just experiencing the often seen technical glitches?


This is particularly why enjoying exclusive rights during the home reservation period is very important: almost 10 months before check in there is availability for the 4th of July week. You are enjoying your rights without competition from exchangers. 

Who said that "all prime weeks are being stolen"?


----------



## pchung6

timsi said:


> This is particularly why enjoying exclusive rights during the home reservation period is very important: almost 10 months before check in there is availability for the 4th of July week. You are enjoying your rights without competition from exchangers.
> 
> Who said that "all prime weeks are being stolen"?


Not very long after, these July availability will soon be available in Abound. By then, tell me about the exclusive booking.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

pchung6 said:


> Because owners have no elect yet?


Yes they do. They can elect II, not many do but they can and it could end up being the same with Abound.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

timsi said:


> This is particularly why enjoying exclusive rights during the home reservation period is very important: almost 10 months before check in there is availability for the 4th of July week. You are enjoying your rights without competition from exchangers.
> 
> Who said that "all prime weeks are being stolen"?


I believe that's what the post I replied to was implying.


----------



## remowidget

CPNY said:


> If resale mandatory owners are not included, then Marriott effectively killed the VSN with abound..


It sounds likely to me that VSN in some form is continuing on. Since use of abound requires depositing Vistana ownership into Abound, it's likely that VSN will largely function the same.

I think it's likely a legal issue whether mandatory is given free access or not.


----------



## alexadeparis

timsi said:


> It seems you also have a different point of view about what  "*without competition *from Network Members *in other Network Resorts*" means. To me it sounds like your rights cannot be transferred to members from other resorts even when you deposit your VOI to that network. What you are saying goes 100% against the spirit of this clause.


Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.


----------



## pchung6

alexadeparis said:


> Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.


That's exactly the issue I pointed out earlier. Which 26 weeks will put into Abound, which 26 weeks will be left out at VSN? Some weeks worth 9000 pts in Abound, some worth 6000-7000 pts. Marriott will pay the same 6300 pts, which week will Marriott take? Every week is the same 148k at VSN. If you are the analyst put in to manage inventory for Westin Ka'anapali, this employee has his/her P/L to show his/her manager in weekly 1on1. What will do you? Don't forget your peers will show their P/L for Westin Kierland to the same manager too.


----------



## Red elephant

alexadeparis said:


> Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.


Hey what about grandfathers


----------



## Red elephant

Red elephant said:


> Hey what about grandfathers


----------



## Eric B

alexadeparis said:


> Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.





pchung6 said:


> That's exactly the issue I pointed out earlier. Which 26 weeks will put into Abound, which 26 weeks will be left out at VSN? Some weeks worth 9000 pts in Abound, some worth 6000-7000 pts. Marriott will pay the same 6300 pts, which week will Marriott take? Every week is the same 148k at VSN. If you are the analyst put in to manage inventory for Westin Ka'anapali, this employee has his/her P/L to show his/her manager in weekly 1on1. What will do you? Don't forget your peers will show their P/L for Westin Kierland to the same manager too.



It might be more realistic to postulate 520 owners of 52 weeks at 10 units or whatever multiple of 52 you desire.  If half go to Abound, II or get rented out, there are 260 unit-weeks less available, leaving 260 spread throughout the year.  Net effect is likely de minimis if they do their job properly at predicting the various demand signals, not to mention that this analysis ignores the potential for event or other fixed weeks.

Bear in mind, of course, that what Marriott actually bought was not the resorts so much as the customer pool and they would be acting against their own interest to do things that fundamentally piss off that customer pool.  My guess is that they will not do that, but I could be wrong.  History recounted by our Marriott-loving counterparts is that they didn't do that to them when they instituted the DC, though, for what it's worth.  I have no illusion of this convincing those that see the sky falling, though.


----------



## ocdb8r

alexadeparis said:


> Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.


I'm thankful I'm not the only one feeling this way.  I mean, I get it....change sucks, there is real risk of there (at some point) being diminishing value of VSN.  But I feel like some people are just repeating the same thing over and over again, without any reference to the actual rules, what has actually been stated by MVC or the ACTUAL experience of MVC owners for years now.  MVC is not a saint, they are clearly in this business to make money, but I also don't think it's at the expense of screwing every current customer they have.

I also am sometimes really thrown off-guard by the entitlement of some people.  I have structured my ownership to take advantage of all the "tips and tricks" learned here on TUG.  Every time I exchange an Orlando week for a Hawaii week, I thank my lucky stars and when I am sitting in the pool in Maui I think to myself "some owner paid $2900 in MF for this week and I'm in it for just over half that cost".  Effectively people are saying they should have an unchangeable right to make those trades....it's simply not the case and not what's in the contracts.  For those worried about their legitimate home ownership rights and preferential booking windows, fine to air your "theoretical" concerns so long as their based in actual fact.  Otherwise just hold your horses and come back here and tell us all about your miserable booking experiences and inability to get the week you wanted.  I just don't see it materializing on the MVC board....there is the occasional grip here and there, but generally with a bit of planning and persistence the vast majority seem satisfied with availability - even the traditional weeks owners who have to compete with all those predatory DP owners that MVC has been preferencing because it's the product they are currently selling. /eyeroll/


----------



## SVOTransplant

pchung6 said:


> That's exactly the issue I pointed out earlier. Which 26 weeks will put into Abound, which 26 weeks will be left out at VSN? Some weeks worth 9000 pts in Abound, some worth 6000-7000 pts. Marriott will pay the same 6300 pts, which week will Marriott take? Every week is the same 148k at VSN. If you are the analyst put in to manage inventory for Westin Ka'anapali, this employee has his/her P/L to show his/her manager in weekly 1on1. What will do you? Don't forget your peers will show their P/L for Westin Kierland to the same manager too.



That’ll go over well in a deposition. They’ll need to be able to defend that P/L within some legal framework. I would surmise it at least smells fair. Perhaps random, round robin, or tied to the actual contract week that backs your VOI?

I have no idea. Maybe you’re right. But I have reason to be optimistic because this is the same fud that came out when Flex threatened to fracture inventory buckets, and that hasn’t panned out in practice.


----------



## ocdb8r

pchung6 said:


> That's exactly the issue I pointed out earlier. Which 26 weeks will put into Abound, which 26 weeks will be left out at VSN? Some weeks worth 9000 pts in Abound, some worth 6000-7000 pts._* Marriott will pay the same 6300 pts, which week will Marriott take?*_ Every week is the same 148k at VSN. If you are the analyst put in to manage inventory for Westin Ka'anapali, this employee has his/her P/L to show his/her manager in weekly 1on1. What will do you? Don't forget your peers will show their P/L for Westin Kierland to the same manager too.


You write this as if Marriott is a person trading weeks for themselves.  MARRIOTT isn't PAYING anything for these weeks.  Other owners (either MVC weeks or DP or Abound point owners) are paying for these weeks.  What incentive does Marriott have to game the system this way?!?!  What does Marriott get from creating an imbalance in the system whereby the Abound side ends up with all the good weeks and the VSN side has none?!?! 

 They have had this same ability regarding any points exchanged for Bonvoy points, cruises or any of the other random products for years - each of those exchanges give Marriott the ability to scoop up ALL the "good" weeks and try to rent them out...yet this has not materialized as a quantifiable problem for the MVC side thus far....for that matter it hasn't materialized on the VSN side either (which they have controlled for several years now).


----------



## Troyrissa

needvaca said:


> We know that VSN inventory will be put into Abound when/if VSN owners elect to convert/deposit to Club points (or likely before), but we're all curious which inventory or weeks will actually enter the Marriott points system.
> So, I thought we long-time VSN owners could post our observations of the current VSN reservation system.
> 
> I own a few WKV platinum weeks.  I was able to make my March 2023 home reservation exactly at 12 months, but I then noticed shortly after the 12 month mark that the entire months of Feb and March showed unavailable on the reservation calendar.  I tested this out and indeed there were no more reservations available at all in Feb and March (the best months at Kierland with Spring Training).  This has never before happened in the last 10 years I've been making reservations.  Therefore, I'm pretty confident that Marriott scooped up all the remaining Feb and March WKV inventory to use in the Abound system when it launches.  Now, Marriott has made the Calendars unavailable, even for Home resort users (I believe on purpose), so that VSN users can't see this trend.
> 
> Also, availability for SBP Sheraton Broadway Plantation for all of July is more limited than I've ever seen it.  There is usually full availability (except July 4) until the 8 month period, but I bet Marriott scooped up some of those prime July weeks as well.
> 
> Have any of you noticed similar time periods blocked off for your home resorts for high Abound point value reservations?


I can only tell you what I see with Los Cabos. Inside my reservation priority period, even the week of July 4, there is availability. Right at the 8 month date, no availability. So 8 months from today is April 30 and I see no availability. But for May 1 check in I see availability as of today. I posted about this elsewhere a few days ago.

I believe your theory could be true.  I thought it was strange that I couldn’t see any availability just one day outside the priority period. I was wondering who are all these people making SO reservations thru April which is past spring break peak. I believe Marriott may be grabbing units right at the 8 month mark to use for Abound.


----------



## ocdb8r

SVOTransplant said:


> That’ll go over well in a deposition. They’ll need to be able to defend that P/L within some legal framework. I would surmise it at least smells fair. Perhaps random, round robin, or tied to the actual contract week that backs your VOI?
> 
> I have no idea. Maybe you’re right. But I have reason to be optimistic because this is the same fud that came out when Flex threatened to fracture inventory buckets, and that hasn’t panned out in practice.


I have mentioned before that MVC regularly has their exchange process and allocations audited by an independent (Big 4) firm.  To be fair, I just haven't had the time to dig again where I saw this posted....but the last report was posted somewhere on their website.  They have a decent amoutn of latitude to estimate or predict demand....but my takeaway was it all has to even out in the end (meaning they can't have moved more intervals from one system to the other without similar "demand" materializing.

Finally, people have to realize there is an enormous amount of "breakage" in these systems - not only small amounts of points that go unused because people have "leftover" points at the end of the year, but enormous amounts of weeks that people just find themselves unable to take advantage of because of "life" despite paying their maintenance fees.  At the end of the day, that also gives MVC (or any operator) an enormous amount of "slack: to balance out demand in the system.


----------



## timsi

Eric B said:


> It might be more realistic to postulate 520 owners of 52 weeks at 10 units or whatever multiple of 52 you desire.  If half go to Abound, II or get rented out, there are 260 unit-weeks less available, leaving 260 spread throughout the year.  Net effect is likely de minimis if they do their job properly at predicting the various demand signals, not to mention that this analysis ignores the potential for event or other fixed weeks.
> 
> Bear in mind, of course, that what Marriott actually bought was not the resorts so much as the customer pool and they would be acting against their own interest to do things that fundamentally piss off that customer pool.  My guess is that they will not do that, but I could be wrong.  History recounted by our Marriott-loving counterparts is that they didn't do that to them when they instituted the DC, though, for what it's worth.  I have no illusion of this convincing those that see the sky falling, though.




By now we should have access to the clear rules of how they intend to divide the inventory and you should not have to "postulate".  Maybe you will not be surprised to learn that Marriott had 140 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter (not even peak season at many resorts) and only 87 million dollars in associated costs if I am not mistaken. The conflict of interest is glaring, the checks and balances nonexistent. It is their responsibility to be open about how they do it. If some think there is nothing there based on nothing but blind trust, why would others not be intrigued and be suspicious that the lack of clarity gives them the opportunity to profit from it?


----------



## pchung6

ocdb8r said:


> You write this as if Marriott is a person trading weeks for themselves.  MARRIOTT isn't PAYING anything for these weeks.  Other owners (either MVC weeks or DP or Abound point owners) are paying for these weeks.  What incentive does Marriott have to game the system this way?!?!  What does Marriott get from creating an imbalance in the system whereby the Abound side ends up with all the good weeks and the VSN side has none?!?!
> 
> They have had this same ability regarding any points exchanged for Bonvoy points, cruises or any of the other random products for years - each of those exchanges give Marriott the ability to scoop up ALL the "good" weeks and try to rent them out...yet this has not materialized as a quantifiable problem for the MVC side thus far....for that matter it hasn't materialized on the VSN side either (which they have controlled for several years now).


They will take the weeks based on the predictability and forecasting of demands of the weeks. When they see more demands in certain weeks, they can scoop in milliseconds when these become available. I have worked in both side as analyst and manager in few large corporations, I can see how it works. Manager has aggregated P/L too, it's all about profit generation. Of course there is a limit and balance where they reach negative marginal contribution. That's how manager identifies potential employee to be in the next promotion.

Talking about renting out good weeks, there are just so many renters out there. They will be competing with owners too. They definitely will do few based on their forecasting.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> I have mentioned before that MVC regularly has their exchange process and allocations audited by an independent (Big 4) firm.  To be fair, I just haven't had the time to dig again where I saw this posted....but the last report was posted somewhere on their website.  They have a decent amoutn of latitude to estimate or predict demand....but my takeaway was it all has to even out in the end (meaning they can't have moved more intervals from one system to the other without similar "demand" materializing.
> 
> Finally, people have to realize there is an enormous amount of "breakage" in these systems - not only small amounts of points that go unused because people have "leftover" points at the end of the year, but enormous amounts of weeks that people just find themselves unable to take advantage of because of "life" despite paying their maintenance fees.  At the end of the day, that also gives MVC (or any operator) an enormous amount of "slack: to balance out demand in the system.


Generally, the audits are financial not operational. A financial auditor will not go to Burger King and watch how they flip the burgers or ask for the recipes.  But if you do find any audit that targets the inventory, I would not mind seeing it.


----------



## kozykritter

I'll just take a moment to remind people about the handy ignore feature. Just click on someone's name and when the pop-up comes up click ignore. It's a great tool to free yourself of the broken record poster. It's worked wonders for me personally in the current conversation, especially since I already had many of the perpetrators on ignore from previous incidents


----------



## needvaca

pchung6 said:


> That's exactly the issue I pointed out earlier. Which 26 weeks will put into Abound, which 26 weeks will be left out at VSN? Some weeks worth 9000 pts in Abound, some worth 6000-7000 pts. Marriott will pay the same 6300 pts, which week will Marriott take? Every week is the same 148k at VSN. If you are the analyst put in to manage inventory for Westin Ka'anapali, this employee has his/her P/L to show his/her manager in weekly 1on1. What will do you? Don't forget your peers will show their P/L for Westin Kierland to the same manager too.


I too believe MVC is managing this inventory for its benefit.  
Several months ago, Vistana removed the "calendar availability" for all properties other than your home resort.  Then a month ago, they took the further step to remove "calendar availability" even for our home resorts.  This was a well thought out and calculated move (based on timing) so that VSN owners can't see the weeks that Abound has already laid claim too (projecting VSN owners who will elect club points).  It appears to me (based on dozens of searches I've done with my home resorts over the last couple months) that they cherry picked best month/months within the platinum season at desired resorts to move into Abound- the ones that will command the highest point value.  such as Feb/March at Kierland and Maui, July at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  If we see these pop up when Abound launches in Oct  (when Vistana has been showing for months no availability there), we'll know that Marriott did in fact cherry pick the best inventory away from VSN members


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> By now we should have access to the clear rules of how they intend to divide the inventory and you should not have to "postulate".  Maybe you will not be surprised to learn that Marriott had 140 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter (not even peak season at many resorts) and only 87 million dollars in associated costs if I am not mistaken. The conflict of interest is glaring, the checks and balances nonexistent. It is their responsibility to be open about how they do it. If some think there is nothing there based on nothing but blind trust, why would others not be intrigued and be suspicious that the lack of clarity gives them the opportunity to profit from it?


This is a miniscule drop in the bucket in terms of overall revenue.  Imagine how many uneducated owners trade their points for Bonvoy points, cruises and Marriott vacation homes.... not to mention however many weeks MVC owns themselves (AND pays the MF on).  The margins on these must be amazing and I'm surprised Marriott had that much in costs and not more in overall profit.  You make these flashy statements with ZERO context.   You never seem to acknowledge there are an enormous number of avenues from which MVC derives legitimate use (and rental) rights.



pchung6 said:


> They will take the weeks based on the predictability and forecasting of demands of the weeks. When they see more demands in certain weeks, they can scoop in milliseconds when these become available. I have worked in both side as analyst and manager in few large corporations, I can see how it works. Manager has aggregated P/L too, it's all about profit generation. Of course there is a limit and balance where they reach negative marginal contribution. That's how manager identifies potential employee to be in the next promotion.


AGAIN, you never explain what MARRIOTT or a Marriott manager gains from "scoop in milliseconds when these become available" - what does Marriott gain from moving all the good weeks to Abound?  They sell points with absolutely ZERO guarantee of availability.  A buyer has no recourse to return their points because the specific week they wanted wasn't available when they went to book it.  As such, why would they want to marginalize all VSN owners and preferentially treat all Abound/DP owners?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> They added the views a while back. You can now see different views and phases.



I have only owned since Marriott took over Vistana. So this dispels the myth that Marriott is the evil empire if they added views to VSN. To me, the fact that Marriott added views is huge!


----------



## ocdb8r

needvaca said:


> I too believe MVC is managing this inventory for its benefit.
> Several months ago, Vistana removed the "calendar availability" for all properties other than your home resort.  Then a month ago, they took the further step to remove "calendar availability" even for our home resorts.  This was a well thought out and calculated move (based on timing) so that VSN owners can't see the weeks that Abound has already laid claim too (projecting VSN owners who will elect club points).  It appears to me (based on dozens of searches I've done with my home resorts over the last couple months) that they cherry picked best month/months within the platinum season at desired resorts to move into Abound- the ones that will command the highest point value.  such as Feb/March at Kierland and Maui, July at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  If we see these pop up when Abound launches in Oct  (when Vistana has been showing for months no availability there), we'll know that Marriott did in fact cherry pick the best inventory away from VSN members


This is ludicrous....there was no legal way to put anything into Abound until three weeks ago (when the formal exchange contracts were executed).  I absolutely HATE that they removed the calendar availability function and hope it's just temporary as they migrate onto the new system, but this crazy conspiracy theories are so over the top.



kozykritter said:


> I'll just take a moment to remind people about the handy ignore feature. Just click on someone's name and when the pop-up comes up click ignore. It's a great tool to free yourself of the broken record poster. It's worked wonders for me in the current conversation, especially since I already had many of the perpetrators on ignore from previous incidents


You're right...but likely time to just stop looking at this thread.  I keep hoping I might be able to dig out some nuggets of useful information....but losing hope.


----------



## remowidget

CPNY said:


> They could have done a better job rolling this out.


Don't jinx us. They still have time to do a worse job.


----------



## needvaca

MICROZE said:


> I have been monitoring WKV for the last 5+ years.
> *This* [No Availability Feb/Mar shortly past the 12-Month timeline] has always been the case for the last few years.
> Prime-Weeks [Month-Of-March] disappear at midnight of the 12-Month mark.
> Prime-Weeks [Month-Of-Feb / Early-Apr] stick around a while but are gone by the 10-11-Month-Mark.
> By the 8-Month-Mark there is usually ZERO availability for Feb/Mar and some availability for Apr 2nd week onwards.
> 
> *February*: 2023 is Superbowl, so all of Feb disappeared immediately at the 12-Month-Mark. Feb has WM-PGA + Presidents-Week.
> *March*: Baseball-Spring-Training so that always disappears at the 12-Month-Mark. March has the Scottsdale-Rodeo + Barrett-Jackson.
> *Early-April:* Easter, so that is gone quickly too.


Feb & March are more sparse after 10-12 months, but I've been able to get a WKV March Staroption reservation for 5-7 days at the exact 8 month mark (usually in the small 1BR) in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, so that friends could join us on vacation.  So I know there is some limited availability.  For 2023, there is none at all.


----------



## pchung6

needvaca said:


> I too believe MVC is managing this inventory for its benefit.
> Several months ago, Vistana removed the "calendar availability" for all properties other than your home resort.  Then a month ago, they took the further step to remove "calendar availability" even for our home resorts.  This was a well thought out and calculated move (based on timing) so that VSN owners can't see the weeks that Abound has already laid claim too (projecting VSN owners who will elect club points).  It appears to me (based on dozens of searches I've done with my home resorts over the last couple months) that they cherry picked best month/months within the platinum season at desired resorts to move into Abound- the ones that will command the highest point value.  such as Feb/March at Kierland and Maui, July at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  If we see these pop up when Abound launches in Oct  (when Vistana has been showing for months no availability there), we'll know that Marriott did in fact cherry pick the best inventory away from VSN members


I see the same pattern too. Unfortunately I don't have more insider information or concrete proof. I can just say what I see and few facts here and there, like we already see some VSN benefits gone. What else can I do when people are pissed when i pointed these out?


----------



## TravelTime

—


----------



## kozykritter

ocdb8r said:


> This is ludicrous....there was no legal way to put anything into Abound until three weeks ago (when the formal exchange contracts were executed).  I absolutely HATE that they removed the calendar availability function and hope it's just temporary as they migrate onto the new system, but this crazy conspiracy theories are so over the top.
> 
> 
> You're right...but likely time to just stop looking at this thread.  I keep hoping I might be able to dig out some nuggets of useful information....but losing hope.


I hear you, and I put the thread on ignore for a few days for just that reason. I guess it was my FOMO that brought me back! Absolutely TUG is a place to find community and share your concerns about certain things that are going on. But at some point some posters' fears and obsessive thinking require professional attention that none of us are qualified to give in this forum.  Probably best for them to express them to someone else to find help working through them


----------



## ocdb8r

needvaca said:


> I too believe MVC is managing this inventory for its benefit.
> Several months ago, Vistana removed the "calendar availability" for all properties other than your home resort.  Then a month ago, they took the further step to remove "calendar availability" even for our home resorts.  This was a well thought out and calculated move (based on timing) so that VSN owners can't see the weeks that Abound has already laid claim too (projecting VSN owners who will elect club points).  It appears to me (based on dozens of searches I've done with my home resorts over the last couple months) that they cherry picked best month/months within the platinum season at desired resorts to move into Abound- the ones that will command the highest point value.  such as Feb/March at Kierland and Maui, July at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  If we see these pop up when Abound launches in Oct  (when Vistana has been showing for months no availability there), we'll know that Marriott did in fact cherry pick the best inventory away from VSN members





pchung6 said:


> I see the same pattern too. Unfortunately I don't have more insider information or concrete proof. I can just say what I see and few facts here and there, like we already see some VSN benefits gone. What else can I do when people are pissed when i pointed these out?


I love it....first when someone reports they are amazed there is still July 4 week availability for Maui, your explanation is because Abound is not active yet so MVC hasn't been able to "steal" all the good weeks.  Now you're agreeing with another poster who has postulated MVC has been cherry picking all the good weeks for "months" and putting them into abound....all under our noses.

There's no way the fact we've been in some sort of lock-down for two years with no way to travel (and the unfettered ability to bank our points) that might account for slightly odd or changed demand patterns. Nope, that can't be it.  It's clearly Marriott "stealing" all the weeks and putting them in Abound.  I can't wait to watch all the MVC DP owners on the Abound board posting about all the amazing prime weeks and massive availability at all the VSN resorts for next year.


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> I agree 100% - the language they are using is somewhat vague and open to interpretation - and no one knows the complete answer for sure. The point I was making was in response to @CalGalTraveler 's statement that she was "skeptical about free mandatory resale enrollment fees." My point was, based on their behavior in 2010, when they treated pre-6/20/2010 resales pretty much on the same basis as Direct for enrollment purposes (resale just paid a higher fee), that it shouldn't surprise anyone if they do decide to follow the same basic model with pre-8/9/2022 resales in 2022 - i.e. - treating them on the same or similar basis as Direct.
> 
> When you think about it, given the significant differences between 2010 and 2022, it's also not all that surprising to me that they would forego enrollment fees altogether this time around. In 2010, MVC owners did not have a points program. All we had was II. We were getting a whole new and more flexible way to exchange usage, and from Day 1, they could sell DC points to any MVC owner by touting the benefits of points. All MVC owners were a fertile field to market a new points product too.
> 
> This time it's different. VSN owners already had a mature and successful points program, so the main thing that MVC can offer VSN owners with Abound, really, is access to resorts in some new places where VSN is not represented. In that environment, MVW management might have felt that it could be harder to sell VSN owners on the new points product, when they already had one they were happy with. The only way they will reap the long-term benefit from making the acquisition is to sell more Abound Club Points to VSN owners. I could see where management might have concluded that getting VSN owners into Abound, and potentially using it, was a better way to get VSN owners to see the benefits of buying more Abound Club Points versus a modest one-time revenue boost from charging an enrollment fee that would be a barrier to enrollment/use.
> 
> So, given the ambiguity, it's still somewhat unclear what their decision will be on pre-8/9/2022 resales, but given their past history, plus the differences in the current situation, it should not be all that surprising if they take a no-fee approach.
> 
> 
> 
> That thought occurred to me as well, but MVC never had the mandatory/voluntary designation, so I'm not that familiar with how those have been treated in VSN over the years. I'm just guessing, but perhaps since those "voluntary" resale weeks never had StarOptions to begin with (I guess they thus weren't actually VSN members?) they were maybe more concerned with the VSN members who already had access to a points system ( i.e. mandatory owners), and whom had access to a points product written into their terms & conditions. I would suspect that at some point voluntary owners will be able to enroll by buying a bundle of Abound points just as post-6/2010 MVC owners can.



IMO, it is unfair to post-2010 Marriott weeks owners to give free enrollment to any Vistana owners except developer purchased. But I will not look a gift horse in the mouth when it benefits me. LOL


----------



## needvaca

ocdb8r said:


> I have mentioned before that MVC regularly has their exchange process and allocations audited by an independent (Big 4) firm.  To be fair, I just haven't had the time to dig again where I saw this posted....but the last report was posted somewhere on their website.  They have a decent amoutn of latitude to estimate or predict demand....but my takeaway was it all has to even out in the end (meaning they can't have moved more intervals from one system to the other without similar "demand" materializing.
> 
> Finally, people have to realize there is an enormous amount of "breakage" in these systems - not only small amounts of points that go unused because people have "leftover" points at the end of the year, but enormous amounts of weeks that people just find themselves unable to take advantage of because of "life" despite paying their maintenance fees.  At the end of the day, that also gives MVC (or any operator) an enormous amount of "slack: to balance out demand in the system.


You overestimate the audit process (I was an auditor and I work with them all the time).  They don't dig that deep into an allocation process.  They test for reasonableness to make sure they're not materially misstating the financials.  I'm sure they're looking high level at the # of weeks per resort being put in the system, and maybe even the season, but they are not digging low enough see if there's an even allocation of weeks through the season.  No way.


----------



## remowidget

MICROZE said:


> If Marriott emulates with VSN [8/8/2022] what they did in 2010, why only consider Mandatory-Resale? Why not *Non-Mandatory [Voluntary] ALL-Resale *too?


If it is free for Mandatory, it is for legal reasons. They don't have a choice. They would not do this is they could legally avoid it.

If they are offering a choice with a pay to play scheme it would make sense to offer it to both voluntary and mandatory.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I have only owned since Marriott took over Vistana. So this dispels the myth that Marriott is the evil empire if they added views to VSN. To me, the fact that Marriott added views is huge!


Let me rephrase, views for Hawaii were always there BEFORE Marriott. Phases of each were added. I suspect not because of marriotts generosity but because of the IT conversion. Marriott will never compare to Vistana/Starwood in so many ways.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> This is a miniscule drop in the bucket in terms of overall revenue.  Imagine how many uneducated owners trade their points for Bonvoy points, cruises and Marriott vacation homes.... not to mention however many weeks MVC owns themselves (AND pays the MF on).  The margins on these must be amazing and I'm surprised Marriott had that much in costs and not more in overall profit.  You make these flashy statements with ZERO context.   You never seem to acknowledge there are an enormous number of avenues from which MVC derives legitimate use (and rental) rights.


I would like to understand your definition of a drop in the bucket, based on what criteria?


----------



## ocdb8r

needvaca said:


> You overestimate the audit process (I was an auditor and I work with them all the time).  They don't dig that deep into an allocation process.  They test for reasonableness to make sure they're not materially misstating the financials.  I'm sure they're looking high level at the # of weeks per resort being put in the system, and maybe even the season, but they are not digging low enough see if there's an even allocation of weeks through the season.  No way.


I absolutely agree...and it's partially moot as MVC/VSN has generous latitude to make projections.  My point isn't that it's fullproof and without some ability for MVC to "fiddle" the allocation.  However, it's not the case that they do this under cloak and dagger with ZERO accountability.  I also fail to see the incentive they have to make sweeping unfair shifts between the systems....


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

ocdb8r said:


> Every time I exchange an Orlando week for a Hawaii week, I thank my lucky stars and when I am sitting in the pool in Maui I think to myself "some owner paid $2900 in MF for this week and I'm in it for just over half that cost".


Next time you do that could you please wear something distinguishing so I can walk over and ask you to buy me a beer as I can't afford to with my high MFs


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Let me rephrase, views for Hawaii were always there BEFORE Marriott. Phases of each were added. I suspect not because of marriotts generosity but because of the IT conversion. Marriott will never compare to Vistana/Starwood in so many ways.



Phases for what Vistana inventory? Do you mean WSJ or are there others? Phases are not on the Abound charts so I wonder if phases will be in Abound for reservation purposes.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

needvaca said:


> I too believe MVC is managing this inventory for its benefit.
> Several months ago, Vistana removed the "calendar availability" for all properties other than your home resort.  Then a month ago, they took the further step to remove "calendar availability" even for our home resorts.  This was a well thought out and calculated move (based on timing) so that VSN owners can't see the weeks that Abound has already laid claim too (projecting VSN owners who will elect club points).  It appears to me (based on dozens of searches I've done with my home resorts over the last couple months) that they cherry picked best month/months within the platinum season at desired resorts to move into Abound- the ones that will command the highest point value.  such as Feb/March at Kierland and Maui, July at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  If we see these pop up when Abound launches in Oct  (when Vistana has been showing for months no availability there), we'll know that Marriott did in fact cherry pick the best inventory away from VSN members


You've already posted this once and at least two posters disproved your theory. Want to try a 3rd time?


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I would like to understand your definition of a drop in the bucket, based on what criteria?


Marriot Vacations Worldwide revenue for the twelve months ending June 30, 2022 was $4.368bn -$140mn in "rental" revenue is only 3.2%.  I'm sorry, but I don't believe MVC is operating a Ponzi scheme, stealing all the "good weeks" and stuffing them into their rental pool to juice their overall revenue numbers by only 3.2%.  The risk just isn't worth the return.  Not to mention, as I said, there are plenty of legitimate avenues that MVC acquires the rights to weeks to put them in the rental pool.


----------



## kozykritter

Just let their comments go. You'll go crazy trying to have them see it any other way...


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> Marriot Vacations Worldwide revenue for the twelve months ending June 30, 2022 was $4.368bn -$140mn in "rental" revenue is only 3.2%.  I'm sorry, but I don't believe MVC is operating a Ponzi scheme, stealing all the "good weeks" and stuffing them into their rental pool to juice their overall revenue numbers by only 3.2%.  The risk just isn't worth the return.  Not to mention, as I said, there are plenty of legitimate avenues that MVC acquires the rights to weeks to put them in the rental pool.


140 million was the number for the quarter actually not for 12 months so you will have to check your math. It is comparable in revenue to what Apple makes from selling Ipads or wearables.
If they keep more lucrative weeks indeed, you'll never know. What risk are you taking about since they do not disclose any rules that they can potentially break?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Phases for what Vistana inventory? Do you mean WSJ or are there others? Phases are not on the Abound charts so I wonder if phases will be in Abound for reservation purposes.


All of the resorts that have phases


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> FWIW if history is any guide, using timeshares to exchange for a cruise will be a poor value proposition. For example, II cruise exchange values is not financially advantageous for the customer.


I completely agree and I would never do the cruise exchange… I’m just wondering if a perk that resale owners cannot access in the VSN may be available through the election of club points.


----------



## needvaca

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> You've already posted this once and at least two posters disproved your theory. Want to try a 3rd time?


Disproved?  Nah, anecdotal at best.  A couple posters saw good availability.  A couple posters see the same trend I'm seeing.  Maybe it varies resort by resort.  That's why I posted- I wanted to get input from others.  

And I don't think Abound is cherry picking for "rental revenue"  Instead, I think they are trying to make sure the launch looks like a big success with good/great weeks available to their members, but of course that is to the detriment of VSN members at the 8 month reservation period, if good availability is gone.  Time will tell


----------



## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> IMO, it is unfair to post-2010 Marriott weeks owners to give free enrollment to any Vistana owners except developer purchased. But I will not look a gift horse in the mouth when it benefits me. LOL



I disagree, since the VSN owners weren't part of the program in 2010. So, this is the first chance they have, and since they set a cut-off date for MVC weeks owners it makes sense to do the same for VSN.


----------



## needvaca

ocdb8r said:


> Marriot Vacations Worldwide revenue for the twelve months ending June 30, 2022 was $4.368bn -$140mn in "rental" revenue is only 3.2%.  I'm sorry, but I don't believe MVC is operating a Ponzi scheme, stealing all the "good weeks" and stuffing them into their rental pool to juice their overall revenue numbers by only 3.2%.  The risk just isn't worth the return.  Not to mention, as I said, there are plenty of legitimate avenues that MVC acquires the rights to weeks to put them in the rental pool.



some posters are very dramatic with claims of ludicrous, ponzi scheme, etc.   Dost thou protest too much?  Do y'all work for Marriott?
Just kidding


----------



## Eric B

JIMinNC said:


> I disagree, since the VSN owners weren't part of the program in 2010. So, this is the first chance they have, and since they set a cut-off date for MVC weeks owners it makes sense to do the same for VSN.



Kind of like the European MVC resorts purchased prior to 6/18/2012.


----------



## jabberwocky

I have several people (and many threads/forums) on my ignore list.

I’m tempted to in this case as well. But if we disengage then it creates a vacuum for misinformation to propagate.


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> 140 million was the number for the quarter actually not for 12 months so you will have to check your math. It is comparable in revenue to what Apple makes from selling Ipads or wearables.
> If they keep more lucrative weeks indeed, you'll never know. What risk are you taking about since they do not disclose any rules that they can potentially break?


You can’t just look at the revenue, you have to look at the margins. Margins on sales are much higher than those for rentals and it is generally less asset intensive. MVC doesn’t want to be in the rental business if they can help it.


----------



## ocdb8r

needvaca said:


> some posters are very dramatic with claims of ludicrous, ponzi scheme, etc.   Dost thou protest too much?  Do y'all work for Marriott?


You caught me....I am indeed the "dramatic" one in these posts.  In reality I'm a Marriott Vacations plant, lying here in wait for the last 14 years just waiting for the perfect opportunity to defend Abound and MVC.  As Pchung6 pointed out, I'm helping to skim the best weeks so I have a healthy P/L to show my MVC manager...and my colleagues are doing it too because we're so competitive with one another.


----------



## pchung6

ocdb8r said:


> I love it....first when someone reports they are amazed there is still July 4 week availability for Maui, your explanation is because Abound is not active yet so MVC hasn't been able to "steal" all the good weeks.  Now you're agreeing with another poster who has postulated MVC has been cherry picking all the good weeks for "months" and putting them into abound....all under our noses.
> 
> There's no way the fact we've been in some sort of lock-down for two years with no way to travel (and the unfettered ability to bank our points) that might account for slightly odd or changed demand patterns. Nope, that can't be it.  It's clearly Marriott "stealing" all the weeks and putting them in Abound.  I can't wait to watch all the MVC DP owners on the Abound board posting about all the amazing prime weeks and massive availability at all the VSN resorts for next year.


July weeks Maui are still available for owners. I reserved one for next year and rented it in few days. The pattern I mentioned was VSN availability for Maui at 8 months. Sorry I wasn't clear about it. It was the pattern I saw earlier when I tried to book March/April week to extend my stay after Ko Olina stay. Eventually I was able to book 1 bedroom oceanview for good friday week. I booked Sunday check in, Saturday wasn't available while Friday IV was available at 9pm. These used to be available in VSN easily. I still need to pay cash for Saturday. It led me to suspect why Saturday wasn't available. Also the availability preview function is gone now. I can only check the VSN availability for that day everyday. All of these led to my suspicious, again I don't have any insider proof. Don't get mad because you don't agree. We need different views to keep conversation going, please!


----------



## VacationForever

pchung6 said:


> Don't get mad because you don't agree. We need different views to keep conversation going, please!


I have opted out of conversation here for the past few days.  But I could not resist right now... I see that the ridiculous back and forth is to keep conversation going.  Duh!  Now I get it!


----------



## Grandma2016

jabberwocky said:


> Here the "Network" being referred to is VSN.  VSN members in other Network Resorts cannot book in the 8-12 month window through VSN, they have to wait until the 8-month mark.


But can a marriott vacation club chairman book at a vsn property at 12 or 13 months


----------



## kozykritter

Grandma2016 said:


> But can a marriott vacation club chairman book at a vsn property at 12 or 13 months


Nobody can book a VSN property more than 12 months in advance, not even their owners. No matter how many times the question is asked, that will still be the answer. Certain owners at SBP can book their week 24 months out I believe but that's a holdover from when Vistana took over the original developers timeshare. However, that unique situation will not transfer over if they elect their ownership to Abound. 12 mo max.


----------



## jabberwocky

Grandma2016 said:


> But can a marriott vacation club chairman book at a vsn property at 12 or 13 months


12 months is the maximum. But the key is that they can only book what has been elected into Abound. If an Vistana owner does not elect for their ownership week to get Abound points, the week will not be bookable in Abound and potentially be available at the 8 month mark in VSN.


----------



## DavidnRobin

needvaca said:


> I own a few WKV platinum weeks. I was able to make my March 2023 home reservation exactly at 12 months, but I then noticed shortly after the 12 month mark that the entire months of Feb and March showed unavailable on the reservation calendar. I tested this out and indeed there were no more reservations available at all in Feb and March (the best months at Kierland with Spring Training). This has never before happened in the last 10 years I've been making reservations. Therefore, I'm pretty confident that Marriott scooped up all the remaining Feb and March WKV inventory to use in the Abound system when it launches. Now, Marriott has made the Calendars unavailable, even for Home resort users (I believe on purpose), so that VSN users can't see this trend.


Same happened to our WKVs last March - there is a thread about this. I did end up getting Fri-Fri reservations in early March. Already rented one ($2300).

Bottom-line: Most likely due to IT issues. There was an email campaign to Marriott Advocacy Dept because this was not only an issue with WKV, but all resorts.
2023 will be tell tale to what is really happening - along with 8 month exchanges into Maui.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MICROZE

Update from Marriott Presentation this morning at Marriott Waikoloa.

*Mandatory-Resales*
Can my Mandatory-Resale participate in the new Abound program.
Emphatic "No". Followed by "Only if it is retroed with a purchase".
I asked, "Was I misled by both Vistana as well as Marriott?" "Did I just retro my Kierland when I didn't need to?"
I challenged this so they kept me waiting for 15 minutes. Got back that the local director reconfirmed with Marriott Corp.
Irrespective of Pre 8/8 or post 8/9, all resales [Voluntary/Mandatory] would need to be retroed to participate in Abound.

*Combined-Account*
Informed them about the following:

I am Primary with Marriott and receive "Bonvoy-Titanium" due to the account designated as "Chairmans-Club".
My wife is Primary with Vistana and receives "Bonvoy-Platinum" due to the account designated as "5-Star-Elite".
Post Full-Rollout, will we have 2-Accounts [Abound + VSN] or 1-Combined-Account.
Was informed that we would only have 1-Combined-Account.
I challenged this, as 1-Account would be a downgrade as we now enjoyed 2 x Accounts with Bonvoy-Status.
Informed that if that were the case, we would definitely not want to enroll our VSN and lose this benefit.
Kept us waiting for another 10 minutes and came back with this. "We will continue to have 2-Accounts. VSN + Marriott". VSN is not going anywhere.
Confirmed that 5-Star-Elite would change the wife's account from Platinum to Titanium.
They also explained the difference between "Enrollment: One-Time" V "Election: Annual-Selection".

*VSE Enroll V VSE-Enroll-Eligible*
They walked through the sheet with me and explained that if we have a *"Y" *in the _"VSE-Enroll-Eligible"_ column it means that we can "Enroll" if _"VSE-Enroll"_ is also *"Y"*.
If the column *"VSE-Enroll"* is "N", it will not be included in Abound. It's probably because the week is a resale and needs to be retroed to change it to a *"Y"*.

*Hybrid-Offer*
Since we already accrue 10+ months of weeks, there was nothing more we could purchase.
In any case they offered a Hybrid-Bundle which was quite interesting [mainly because it was a Maui-OF].
EY 2BR-Maui-Sequel [Ocean-Front *7475-DCP/$7.51/DCP/MF: $2473*] for $56K + *2500-DCP* [$16.08 15%-Discount to $13.66/DCP] for $34K. Total *$90K for 9975-DCP [$9.05/DCP]*.
*Incentive: *5000-DCP [2500x2]
Did offer Trade-In. Exchanging some of our deeded weeks [Dev-Purchase-Only] to offset the cost but since we were not interested we didn't get into that.


----------



## MICROZE

DavidnRobin said:


> Same happened to our WKVs last March - there is a thread about this. I did end up getting Fri-Fri reservations in early March. Already rented one ($2300).
> 
> Bottom-line: Most likely due to IT issues. There was an email campaign to Marriott Advocacy Dept because this was not only an issue with WKV, but all resorts.
> *2023 will be tell tale to what is really happening - along with 8 month exchanges into Maui.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think we may have to wait for 2024 to see the *impact of Abound*.
The reason being, most VSN-2023 prime weeks are already booked [prior to Abound going live], thus we cannot ascertain the impact of Abound on 2023 usage.


----------



## robertk2012

I will not pay money to Marriott to enroll my weeks in abound.  I will use them as long as useful and then I will sell or they can have them back.


----------



## Grandma2016

MICROZE said:


> Update from Marriott Presentation this morning at Marriott Waikoloa.
> 
> *Mandatory-Resales*
> Can my Mandatory-Resale participate in the new Abound program.
> Emphatic "No". Followed by "Only if it is retroed with a purchase".
> I asked, "Was I misled by both Vistana as well as Marriott?" "Did I just retro my Kierland when I didn't need to?"
> I challenged this so they kept me waiting for 15 minutes. Got back that the local director reconfirmed with Marriott Corp.
> Irrespective of Pre 8/8 or post 8/9, all resales [Voluntary/Mandatory] would need to be retroed to participate in Abound.
> 
> *Combined-Account*
> Informed them about the following:
> 
> I am Primary with Marriott and receive "Bonvoy-Titanium" due to the account designated as "Chairmans-Club".
> My wife is Primary with Vistana and receives "Bonvoy-Platinum" due to the account designated as "5-Star-Elite".
> Post Full-Rollout, will we have 2-Accounts [Abound + VSN] or 1-Combined-Account.
> Was informed that we would only have 1-Combined-Account.
> I challenged this, as 1-Account would be a downgrade as we now enjoyed 2 x Accounts with Bonvoy-Status.
> Informed that if that were the case, we would definitely not want to enroll our VSN and lose this benefit.
> Kept us waiting for another 10 minutes and came back with this. "We will continue to have 2-Accounts. VSN + Marriott". VSN is not going anywhere.
> Confirmed that 5-Star-Elite would change the wife's account from Platinum to Titanium.
> They also explained the difference between "Enrollment: One-Time" V "Election: Annual-Selection".
> 
> *VSE Enroll V VSE-Enroll-Eligible*
> They walked through the sheet with me and explained that if we have a *"Y" *in the _"VSE-Enroll-Eligible"_ column it means that we can "Enroll" if _"VSE-Enroll"_ is also *"Y"*.
> If the column *"VSE-Enroll"* is "N", it will not be included in Abound. It's probably because the week is a resale and needs to be retroed to change it to a *"Y"*.
> 
> *Hybrid-Offer*
> Since we already accrue 10+ months of weeks, there was nothing more we could purchase.
> In any case they offered a Hybrid-Bundle which was quite interesting [mainly because it was a Maui-OF].
> EY 2BR-Maui-Sequel [Ocean-Front *7475-DCP/$7.51/DCP*] for $56K + *2500-DCP* [$16.08 discounted to #13.66/DCP] for $34K. Total *$90K for 9975-DCP [$9.05/DCP]*. MF: $2473.
> Did offer Trade-In. Exchanging some of our deeded weeks [Dev-Purchase-Only] to offset the cost but since we were not interested we didn't get into that.


Im not sure about the VSE enroll...we went to an update early August and we were shown our sheet.  All of our properties show Y in both columns.  Three showing a Y by them are not retroed.  But they are week 52 in Maui with high mvc points.  Maybe the Y is there because they would like those 3 weeks?????


----------



## kozykritter

MICROZE said:


> Update from Marriott Presentation this morning at Marriott Waikoloa.
> 
> *Mandatory-Resales*
> Can my Mandatory-Resale participate in the new Abound program.
> Emphatic "No". Followed by "Only if it is retroed with a purchase".
> I asked, "Was I misled by both Vistana as well as Marriott?" "Did I just retro my Kierland when I didn't need to?"
> I challenged this so they kept me waiting for 15 minutes. Got back that the local director reconfirmed with Marriott Corp.
> Irrespective of Pre 8/8 or post 8/9, all resales [Voluntary/Mandatory] would need to be retroed to participate in Abound.
> 
> *Combined-Account*
> Informed them about the following:
> 
> I am Primary with Marriott and receive "Bonvoy-Titanium" due to the account designated as "Chairmans-Club".
> My wife is Primary with Vistana and receives "Bonvoy-Platinum" due to the account designated as "5-Star-Elite".
> Post Full-Rollout, will we have 2-Accounts [Abound + VSN] or 1-Combined-Account.
> Was informed that we would only have 1-Combined-Account.
> I challenged this, as 1-Account would be a downgrade as we now enjoyed 2 x Accounts with Bonvoy-Status.
> Informed that if that were the case, we would definitely not want to enroll our VSN and lose this benefit.
> Kept us waiting for another 10 minutes and came back with this. "We will continue to have 2-Accounts. VSN + Marriott". VSN is not going anywhere.
> Confirmed that 5-Star-Elite would change the wife's account from Platinum to Titanium.
> They also explained the difference between "Enrollment: One-Time" V "Election: Annual-Selection".
> 
> *VSE Enroll V VSE-Enroll-Eligible*
> They walked through the sheet with me and explained that if we have a *"Y" *in the _"VSE-Enroll-Eligible"_ column it means that we can "Enroll" if _"VSE-Enroll"_ is also *"Y"*.
> If the column *" VSE-Enroll"* is "N", it will not be included in Abound. It's probably because the week is a resale and needs to be retroed to change it to a *"Y"*.
> 
> *Hybrid-Offer*
> Since we already accrue 10+ months of weeks, there was nothing more we could purchase.
> In any case they offered a Hybrid-Bundle which was quite interesting [mainly because it was a Maui-OF].
> EY 2BR-Maui-Sequel [Ocean-Front *7475-DCP/$7.51/DCP*] for $56K + *2500-DCP* [$16.08 discounted to #13.66/DCP] for $34K. Total *$90K for 9975-DCP [$9.05/DCP]*. MF: $2473.
> Did offer Trade-In. Exchanging some of our deeded weeks [Dev-Purchase-Only] to offset the cost but since we were not interested we didn't get into that.


Thanks for sharing that info! It fits in today with what I learned from a friend that works in marketing for MVC (not direct sales). They told me that the FAQ vague wording around  enrollment is likely by design and a conscious choice on Marriott's part to not commit publicly at this time to specific information about what it would take to enroll Vistana ownerships in Abound. This is because they want to give themselves leeway to change the decisions they've already made in the background right up until Abound launches and if they disseminate that information out to the masses now, their hands are tied.  

They said that knowledge of these decisions they've made are tightly controlled within a small group of people at Marriott and that very little has been said to marketing but that sales has fed more information than marketing so we might get a better clue on what Marriott is planning to do from what trends emerge from sales presentations. The trend being reported by you and also by CPNY is a purchase being required, though maybe when the actual launch happens it may be reduced to some type of enrollment fee instead. Again we are all speculating since we don't have direct information but it does seem to fit together.. you know, like any conspiracy theory does


----------



## DavidnRobin

kozykritter said:


> Nobody can book a VSN property more than 12 months in advance, not even their owners. No matter how many times the question is asked, that will still be the answer. Certain owners at SBP can book their week 24 months out I believe but that's a holdover from when Vistana took over the original developers timeshare. However that unique situation will not transfer over if they elect their ownership to Abound. 12 mo max.



Except fixed VOIs (of course).
18 months to 10 months is the fixed villa owner’s reservation window.

Even if they can reserve at 13 months - it can only be inventory controlled (e.g. owned) by MWC, and has no impact on VSN owners as those VOIs would not be available anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> You can’t just look at the revenue, you have to look at the margins. Margins on sales are much higher than those for rentals and it is generally less asset intensive. MVC doesn’t want to be in the rental business if they can help it.



In the last annual report, they describe their business as:

"We are a leading global vacation company that offers vacation ownership, exchange,* rental* and resort and property management, along with related businesses, products and services."

The rental margins are very healthy. Their sales would also look different if they were _not_ in the rental business since it would be costly to maintain inventory and they would keep it at much lower level based on what they expect to sell short term.  Half a billion dollars in inventory (at acquisition value?)  and they shouldn't optimize the rental income?
All I am saying is that some transparency can't be a bad thing for us.


----------



## DavidnRobin

MICROZE said:


> I think we may have to wait for 2024 to see the *impact of Abound*.
> The reason being, most VSN-2023 prime weeks are already booked [prior to Abound going live], thus we cannot ascertain the impact of Abound on 2023 usage.



Fine…2024, except a large majority were shut out of reservations at peak whale season and WKV spring training for 2023 reservations. So in making next reservations in 2023 - they will be for 2024 (HomeResort), and late 2023 for VSN (@8 months)

It will be very telling if we go to make WKV reservations in March 2023 for March 2024 - and see same lack of availability.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timsi

They are only making banking shorter from 2025 so until then the Vistana owners still have an incentive to keep their VOIs in VSN. Since other VSN benefits that are not related to the inventory change right away, it seems they are trying to prove that it is business as usual in VSN, at least for a while.


----------



## jabberwocky

Grandma2016 said:


> Im not sure about the VSE enroll...we went to an update early August and we were shown our sheet.  All of our properties show Y in both columns.  Three showing a Y by them are not retroed.  But they are week 52 in Maui with high mvc points.  Maybe the Y is there because they would like those 3 weeks?????


If both show a Y then they are in Abound. Congratulations!  I suspect sales saying that you must retro a pre-8/9 mandatory resale to participate in Abound is either trying to make an additional sale, or they are covering their butt for earlier lies.

Either the sales person is lying or the ownership profile is lying. I know which one I would believe.


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> In the last annual report, they describe their business as:
> 
> "We are a leading global vacation company that offers vacation ownership, exchange,* rental* and resort and property management, along with related businesses, products and services."
> 
> The rental margins are very healthy. Their sales would also look different if they were _not_ in the rental business since it would be costly to maintain inventory and they would keep it at much lower level based on what they expect to sell short term.  Half a billion dollars in inventory (at acquisition value?)  and they shouldn't optimize the rental income?
> All I am saying is that some transparency can't be a bad thing for us.


I’m not disputing that they do rentals - what I’m saying is I don’t think it is the main driver for how Abound has been designed. It does help on the margins, but overall rentals are a minor part of the business and the financials bear that out (helpful analysis tip - remember to be careful when using quarterly data in a seasonal business).


----------



## jabberwocky

robertk2012 said:


> I will not pay money to Marriott to enroll my weeks in abound.  I will use them as long as useful and then I will sell or they can have them back.


The good news is you likely won’t have to for your mandatory weeks that you’ve owned before 8/9!


----------



## Red elephant

TravelTime said:


> Phases for what Vistana inventory? Do you mean WSJ or are there others? Phases are not on the Abound charts so I wonder if phases will be in Abound for reservation purposes.


I remember asking the folks of SBP to add the different phases on the online reservation system because I booked 2 bedroom and one 2 bedroom lock off there and ended up in plantation and palmetto phase. It did not mention the phases when I booked and I had no idea there were 2 phases.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> The good news is you likely won’t have to for your mandatory weeks that you’ve owned before 8/9!


What are you basing that on? There has been no communication about whether there would be a fee to enroll for resales or even developer purchases. The only thing they said was they would be eligible to enroll, which is only step one.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> I’m not disputing that they do rentals - what I’m saying is I don’t think it is the main driver for how Abound has been designed. It does help on the margins, but overall rentals are a minor part of the business and the financials bear that out (helpful analysis tip - remember to be careful when using quarterly data in a seasonal business).


Sales are so profitable only because they can acquire inventory at a _very_ low cost and because renting the inventory is actually a nice profit center. The parts work well together. Sales like to show how profitable they are, but it does not happen in a vacuum. You are right that Abound was not designed just for rentals, but all the parts should benefit, it would be business malpractice if one were neglected.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> What are you basing that on? There has been no communication about whether there would be a fee to enroll for resales or even developer purchases. The only thing they said was they would be eligible to enroll, which is only step one.


I’m basing it on not having to do a retro to have it included in Abound:



MICROZE said:


> *VSE Enroll V VSE-Enroll-Eligible*
> They walked through the sheet with me and explained that if we have a *"Y" *in the _"VSE-Enroll-Eligible"_ column it means that we can "Enroll" if _"VSE-Enroll"_ is also *"Y"*.
> If the column *"VSE-Enroll"* is "N", it will not be included in Abound. It's probably because the week is a resale and needs to be retroed to change it to a *"Y"*.


Note that multiple people here have reported having both columns show Y even if it is a non-retroed mandatory resale. So sales wasn’t being so consistent.

I still don’t think there will be a fee to enroll. The “opportunity” language isn’t there for developer purchases, so I definitely do think there will be no fee for developer.

As to resales, what does opportunity mean? You could read it as you will have to take an affirmative action to enroll the week in Abound, such as paying a fee. But we also know that we will have to opt-out if we want to retain the current VSN fee structure and not be in Abound.

I suspect they want broad uptake of Abound, and charging a fee poses a barrier. They also know it is harder to get people to opt-in to something than to opt-out (think about company 401-k participation).  The “opportunity” may simply be the option to opt-out.  quite frankly, it’s harder to charge a fee for something when people opt-out. How do you get payment for the bulk of owners who probably don’t pay attention and are automatically included by not opting out?


----------



## jabberwocky

Red elephant said:


> I remember asking the folks of SBP to add the different phases on the online reservation system because I booked 2 bedroom and one 2 bedroom lock off there and ended up in plantation and palmetto phase. It did not mention the phases when I booked and I had no idea there were 2 phases.


Even before we saw it online you could request a specific phase some resorts - so the capability was there even though it wasn’t online. At SVR I would call after I booked and would get them to ensure we were in the Lakes phase as we preferred that one. Never had it denied even though we owned Cascades.


----------



## VacationForever

I think there will be an issue if there is not some sort of enrollment fee or need to purchase a small number of points for enrollment into Abound because sales has been selling points to owners to requalify their purchase to make them eligible for Abound.  It opens up to a major class action lawsuit and Marriott will definitely lose.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> I’m basing it on not having to do a retro to have it included in Abound:
> 
> 
> Note that multiple people here have reported having both columns show Y even if it is a non-retroed mandatory resale. So sales wasn’t being so consistent.
> 
> I actually think they have it off slightly. I believe VSE Enroll Eligible is for weeks that are in VSN.  Weeks that have been enrolled will have the VSE Enroll flag also set to Y. VSN weeks that are not in Abound will have an N in the VSE Enroll column.   Voluntary resales probably show up as N in both columns if not retroed.
> 
> I still don’t think there will be a fee to enroll. The “opportunity” language isn’t there for developer purchases, so I definitely do think there will be no fee for developer.
> 
> As to resales, what does opportunity mean? You could read it as you will have to take an affirmative action to enroll the week in Abound, such as paying a fee. But we also know that we will have to opt-out if we want to retain the current VSN fee structure and not be in Abound.
> 
> I suspect they want broad uptake of Abound, and charging a fee poses a barrier. They also know it is harder to get people to opt-in to something than to opt-out (think about company 401-k participation).  The “opportunity” may simply be the option to opt-out.  quite frankly, it’s harder to charge a fee for something when people opt-out. How do you get payment for the bulk of owners who probably don’t pay attention and are automatically included by not opting out?


Vistana CS rep told me as long as there are star options attached you will be able to convert to club points.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> *I suspect they want broad uptake of Abound, and charging a fee poses a barrier*. They also know it is harder to get people to opt-in to something than to opt-out (think about company 401-k participation).  The “opportunity” may simply be the option to opt-out.  quite frankly, it’s harder to charge a fee for something when people opt-out. How do you get payment for the bulk of owners who probably don’t pay attention and are automatically included by not opting out?


I see many posts that Marriott needs *broad adoption* and are desperate for Mandatory-Resorts participation. I agree they need participation for the program to be successful.

I have asked this question earlier but no one seems to want to touch it.
*What percent of owners are Mandatory-Resale?* If the # is 50%-70%, I can see why Marriott is desperate enough to provide an incentive [Enroll with no cost] to get these weeks.
If Mandatory-Resale is 20%, why would Marriott need to provide any incentive if 80% of the owners [Developer-Purchase] are already Auto-Enrolled for free?

Vistana knows the #'s and so does Marriott as they show it to each of us at the presentations. Does anyone on TUG have insight?


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Vistana CS rep told me as long as there are star options attached you will be able to convert to club points.


Interesting. @CPNY - I’m curious about your owner profile sheet and whether you’d be able to get ahold of that (are you going to a presentation soon?).

You’re probably the first confirmed TUGGER with mandatory resales in your account from before and after 8/9. I’d be interested to see if you have different values in the VSE Enroll column for these.


----------



## Jayco29D

needvaca said:


> I think they are trying to make sure the launch looks like a big success with good/great weeks available to their members, but of course that is to the detriment of VSN members at the 8 month reservation period, if good availability is gone.



Marriott already said Abound will have poor Vistana inventory at launch so the above is not true.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

needvaca said:


> Disproved?  Nah, anecdotal at best.  A couple posters saw good availability.  A couple posters see the same trend I'm seeing.  Maybe it varies resort by resort.  That's why I posted- I wanted to get input from others.
> 
> And I don't think Abound is cherry picking for "rental revenue"  Instead, I think they are trying to make sure the launch looks like a big success with good/great weeks available to their members, but of course that is to the detriment of VSN members at the 8 month reservation period, if good availability is gone.  Time will tell


I don't want to get into an argument over the English language with you because you will lose. However I suggest you look up the definition of anecdotal and then decide if me actually seeing a July 4th 2023 week at WKORV-N is anecdotal or you concluding that Marriot are 'stealing' prime weeks is anecdotal.


----------



## Jayco29D

I think the real reason VSN is getting starved is because owners do not want to exchange in VSN. They would rather rent their weeks. That is exactly what I do. So my inventory gets pulled out of VSN and no longer available. Now I have a second option which will be to elect Abound points. Either way, VSN never did and never will get my week.


----------



## timsi

VacationForever said:


> I think there will be an issue if there is not some sort of enrollment fee or need to purchase a small number of points for enrollment into Abound because sales has been selling points to owners to requalify their purchase to make them eligible for Abound.  It opens up to a major class action lawsuit and Marriott will definitely lose.



I do not know how someone who has paid (tens of) thousands of dollars to "upgrade" to Abound would be satisfied if there is just a small enrollment fee for mandatory.  I would certainly ask for equal treatment and a full refund.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Interesting. @CPNY - I’m curious about your owner profile sheet and whether you’d be able to get ahold of that (are you going to a presentation soon?).
> 
> You’re probably the first confirmed TUGGER with mandatory resales in your account from before and after 8/9. I’d be interested to see if you have different values in the VSE Enroll column for these.


The post 8/9 hasn’t landed yet. It was sent over to vistana on 8/19. I am going to SVV on Friday so hopefully I can get a presentation in on Saturday


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> I see many posts that Marriott needs *broad adoption* and are desperate for Mandatory-Resorts participation. I agree they need participation for the program to be successful.
> 
> I have asked this question earlier but no one seems to want to touch it.
> *What percent of owners are Mandatory-Resale?* If the # is 50%-70%, I can see why Marriott is desperate enough to provide an incentive [Enroll with no cost] to get these weeks.
> If Mandatory-Resale is 20%, why would Marriott need to provide any incentive if 80% of the owners [Developer-Purchase] are already Auto-Enrolled for free?
> 
> Vistana knows the #'s and so does Marriott as they show it to each of us at the presentations. Does anyone on TUG have insight?


My comments were more related to charging a small fee for participation in Abound. If the number of resale mandatory weeks is small, then a small fee won’t move the needle and might turn those owners off of the program. I think requiring a large retro would be more likely than a small fee in this case. Charging a small fee would also lead to voluntary resale owners demanding to pay the fee to be let in. 

If I’m the owner of a $30k Maui OF week and your asking me to pay a small fee or retro my property in so I can’t book what I already have because of the skim, what would my response be? I’d tell you to go out to Kaanapali Beach and pound sand. If you let me in for free then I might join you and be okay with playing in the sandbox on occasion.

At the end I don’t think there is any big calculations on what will maximize short term profits. Long term if they are to do well they need satisfied repeat customers. The easiest way to keep your existing customers happy (other than a functional website ) is to grandfather them in (other systems could learn a lesson here IMO).

Of course I could be wrong, but we’ll hopefully know soon how this all works.


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> The post 8/9 hasn’t landed yet. It was sent over to vistana on 8/19. I am going to SVV on Friday so hopefully I can get a presentation in on Saturday


We’ll have our popcorn ready!


----------



## Jayco29D

VacationForever said:


> I think there will be an issue if there is not some sort of enrollment fee or need to purchase a small number of points for enrollment into Abound because sales has been selling points to owners to requalify their purchase to make them eligible for Abound.  It opens up to a major class action lawsuit and Marriott will definitely lose.



Wouldn’t this also be an issue for post-2010 MVC owners who had to pay to re-qualify their week?


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> I do not know how someone who has paid (tens of) thousands of dollars to "upgrade" to Abound would be satisfied if there is just a small enrollment fee for mandatory.  I would certainly ask for equal treatment and a full refund.


Most owners won’t know and I suspect they won’t compare notes with other owners. My guess is they don’t understand anything about mandatory or voluntary. Those of us here on TUG are a small minority of owners - and developer purchases are generally frowned upon. I’ll guess that probably less than 10 of us on TUG who are active have done a retro at some point.


----------



## VacationForever

Jayco29D said:


> Wouldn’t this also be an issue for post-2010 MVC owners who had to pay to re-qualify their week?


Right now, Vistana is selling $10K points to enroll the first week, $5K for each week after.  I believe they will use the same $ amount to enroll resale unqualified Vistana ownership, or 1000 MVC points for the first week, and 500 VC points for each week after.  Yes, Marriott owners have been paying alot of money to retro their resale weeks for the past 12 years.


----------



## timsi

Jayco29D said:


> I think the real reason VSN is getting starved is because owners do not want to exchange in VSN. They would rather rent their weeks. That is exactly what I do. So my inventory gets pulled out of VSN and no longer available. Now I have a second option which will be to elect Abound points. Either way, VSN never did and never will get my week.


It does not matter the intentions of few owners, VSN has had great inventory and in absence of Abound there is no indication that it was not going to continue.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> Most owners won’t know and I suspect they won’t compare notes with other owners. My guess is they don’t understand anything about mandatory or voluntary. Those of us here on TUG are a small minority of owners - and developer purchases are generally frowned upon. I’ll guess that probably less than 10 of us on TUG who are active have done a retro at some point.


Yet, I would not be surprised if few exit companies were getting ready to make them aware


----------



## Jayco29D

VacationForever said:


> Right now, Vistana is selling $10K points to enroll the first week, $5K for each week after.  I believe they will use the same $ amount to enroll resale unqualified Vistana ownership, or 1000 MVC points for the first week, and 500 VC points for each week after.  Yes, Marriott owners have been paying alot of money to retro their resale weeks for the past 12 years.



Wow, I did not realize Vistana was actively selling points to re-qualify Vistana mandatory weeks. If this is the case, then Marriott will need to refund all those mandatory resale owners or charge a similar fee to post-8/9 mandatory resale owners. So then what value does the 8/9 date really have?


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## CPNY

Did they stop retro any resales after 8/9? Also, if mandatory resale units can elect to convert to club points but not have the ability to convert to Bonvoy points then technically you won’t get the full offerings of the abound program. So the Marriott employees who told owners they needed to make an additional purchase to retro and have their unenrolled resale fully integrated into the abound program weren’t lying.


----------



## pchung6

jabberwocky said:


> My comments were more related to charging a small fee for participation in Abound. If the number of resale mandatory weeks is small, then a small fee won’t move the needle and might turn those owners off of the program. I think requiring a large retro would be more likely than a small fee in this case. Charging a small fee would also lead to voluntary resale owners demanding to pay the fee to be let in.
> 
> If I’m the owner of a $30k Maui OF week and your asking me to pay a small fee or retro my property in so I can’t book what I already have because of the skim, what would my response be? I’d tell you to go out to Kaanapali Beach and pound sand. If you let me in for free then I might join you and be okay with playing in the sandbox on occasion.
> 
> At the end I don’t think there is any big calculations on what will maximize short term profits. Long term if they are to do well they need satisfied repeat customers. The easiest way to keep your existing customers happy (other than a functional website ) is to grandfather them in (other systems could learn a lesson here IMO).
> 
> Of course I could be wrong, but we’ll hopefully know soon how this all works.


Thank you. This totally makes sense.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> My comments were more related to charging a small fee for participation in Abound. If the number of resale mandatory weeks is small, then a small fee won’t move the needle and might turn those owners off of the program. I think requiring a large retro would be more likely than a small fee in this case. *Charging a small fee would also lead to voluntary resale owners demanding to pay the fee to be let in.*


Your last comment just made the case why Marriot cannot charge a *Small-Fee* to let Mandatory-Resales in.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Your last comment just made the case why Marriot cannot charge a *Small-Fee* to let Mandatory-Resales in.


Correct. I don’t believe there will be a small fee. There will be abound access for the mandatory resale contract but only the ability to convert to club points. Things like bonvoy status and ability to convert VOIs to bonvoy points will not be included, the same way it’s not included in an unenrolled resale contract today, mandatory or voluntary.


----------



## MICROZE

Jayco29D said:


> Wow, I did not realize Vistana was *actively selling* points to re-qualify Vistana mandatory weeks. If this is the case, then Marriott will need to refund all those mandatory resale owners or *charge a similar fee to post-8/9 mandatory resale owners. So then what value does the 8/9 date really have*?


Vistana has been *actively* doing this since 2019 for Mandatory as well as Voluntary resales.

Post 8/9 as well as *Pre* 8/9 Resale owners.


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## MICROZE

-


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> Correct. I don’t believe there will be a small fee. There will be abound access for the mandatory resale contract but only the ability to convert to club points. Things like bonvoy status and ability to convert VOIs to bonvoy points will not be included, *the same way it’s not included in an unenrolled resale contract today, mandatory or voluntary*.


You may be onto *something*.

If VSN Mandatory resales are included in Abound [without a Retro and without a fee], they could permit them to exchange within Abound [same as Mandatory-Resales enjoy within VSN] but not count towards TS-Status [VSN: 4*/5* - Abound: Presidential/Chairmans] OR Bonvoy-Status [Platinum/Titanium].

This is possibly why some sheets show VSN-Enroll="Y" as well as VSN-Enroll-Eligible="Y" for Mandatory-Resales that are *NOT*-Retro'd.
However, their Points to calc OBL [Owner-Benefit-Level] = 0 and Total *Non*-Enroll-Pts=Total-Mandatory-Resale-Points

Here is an example from a previous Post-#255


----------



## CPNY

Jayco29D said:


> Wow, I did not realize Vistana was actively selling points to re-qualify Vistana mandatory weeks. If this is the case, then Marriott will need to refund all those mandatory resale owners or charge a similar fee to post-8/9 mandatory resale owners. *So then what value does the 8/9 date really have?*


I tried getting clarification on this today. I was told that most likely any mandatory resale that’s transferred after 8/9 will not be part of the Abound club dues and will only be able to be used in the VSN and will again “most likely” have the old VSN club dues separate from other abound club dues. The FAQ alludes to something different. 

I had a pre 8/9 unit that closed and transferred in June but Marriott was completely incompetent and never put the ownership into my existing account. After multiple calls and emails, I can finally see the VOI in my dashboard as of two days ago. When I called vistana today to get some questions answered the rep said that he sees my 4 VOIs and they are eligible for CP’s. I told the rep there should be 5 VOI’s with the latest finally hitting my existing account. He checked and said for some reasons he sees that VOI but it’s not in the same (I forgot the word he used) but the ownerships “weren’t together on their end”.

I’m hoping that they didn’t muck this up even more and I get access to abound with that 5th VOI as it was transferred into the VSN in my name in June. Being that this is Marriott IT, I’m anticipating a long battle for them to get it right.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> You may be onto *something*.
> 
> If VSN Mandatory resales are included in Abound [without a Retro and without a fee], they could permit them to exchange within Abound [sane as Mandatory-Resales enjoy within VSN] but not count towards Bonvoy-Status.


I’m not anticipating bonvoy status…. Which is unfortunate for me since I benefit from platinum and titanium status. I’ll just have to make sure I hit at least 50 nights a year. It won’t be too difficult. But I’m barely making platinum this year.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I’m not anticipating bonvoy status…. Which is unfortunate for me since I benefit from platinum and titanium status. I’ll just have to make sure I hit at least 50 nights a year. It won’t be too difficult. But I’m barely making platinum this year.



How is that even possible? You might want to get one or two of the credit cards to earn 15-30 nights per year. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> How is that even possible? You might want to get one or two of the credit cards to earn 15-30 nights per year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I’ll be 14 nights short after this trip this weekend. I should get another 10-12 by the end of the year so I may be closer than I thought.

I’ve been using my AA card this year since American went toward Loyalty points. I’m already at platinum pro for 2023. I’d much rather the airline status than platinum Bonvoy.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I’ll be 14 nights short after this trip this weekend. I should get another 10-12 by the end of the year so I may be closer than I thought.
> 
> I’ve been using my AA card this year since American went toward Loyalty points. I’m already at platinum pro for 2023. I’d much rather the airline status than platinum Bonvoy.



You get the 15 nights for just having a single card. You don’t need to spend anything on it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## vacationtime1

CPNY said:


> I’ll be 14 nights short after this trip this weekend. I should get another 10-12 by the end of the year so I may be closer than I thought.
> 
> I’ve been using my AA card this year since American went toward Loyalty points. I’m already at platinum pro for 2023. I’d much rather the airline status than platinum Bonvoy.


You don't need to use the Bonvoy credit card to get the night credit; you just need to pay the annual fee.  And because they give you a voucher for a free night, the annual fee is neutralized.


----------



## jabberwocky

Ken555 said:


> You get the 15 nights for just having a single card. You don’t need to spend anything on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


+1 on this. It is cheaper than a mattress run.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> You get the 15 nights for just having a single card. You don’t need to spend anything on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





vacationtime1 said:


> You don't need to use the Bonvoy credit card to get the night credit; you just need to pay the annual fee.  And because they give you a voucher for a free night, the annual fee is neutralized.



which card? That works for me!


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## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> which card? That works for me!


Chase has a free one as well as a $95/year one. Both give 15 elite night credits I believe. Of course there is the $450 Amex brilliant card.


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## Ken555

jabberwocky said:


> +1 on this. It is cheaper than a mattress run.



And this is why I still have two of them, even though I no longer put much spend on them given the Marriott devaluation (and that I have too many points right now).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## daviator

alexadeparis said:


> Timsi, this has been explained to you by multiple people now on multiple threads - so i have no choice but to conclude you are just being purposefully obtuse. If there are 52 unit-week owners, there will be 52 reservations available. If half (26) give up THEIR home use to Abound there will now STILL be 26 unit weeks left in home resort period for YOU and your other 25 Abound Hating friends. So, No one's home resort period has been diminished  - there are still the same amount of home resort reservations as participants, split into 2 buckets. STOP with your deliberately FALSE narrative, you are now confusing grandmothers.


I largely agree with you, but would point out one thing.

In the current system, if you have 50 unit weeks owners, and 50 reservations available, you will indeed be competing against the other 49.  But of those other 49 owners, not all will book at 12 months.  Some will book at 8 months and a day, some won't book at all during the home resort period.  That means that during the 8-12 month home resort reservation period, it is pretty easy to make home resort reservations, even for prime weeks, so long as you do so right at 12 months.  It gets progressively harder as you get closer to the 8 month mark, and harder yet at 8 months when the home reservation privilege ends and the unreserved weeks are opened up to the VSN masses.

Under Abound, if 25 people elect for Abound, I think you can pretty much be certain that all 25 of their weeks will be reserved immediately when Abound reservations become bookable, because you'll have thousands of Abound members clamoring for them.  So it will be even more critical to reserve Home Resort reservations right at 12 months.  This probably also applies to Flex owners.  My understanding is that the Tuesday release of inventory to Abound means that we should have a short window of opportunity to reserve before the Abound masses descend.

I think the days of finding desirable home resort weeks at, say, 9 months, are probably over, to the extent they ever existed.


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## CalGalTraveler

jabberwocky said:


> If I’m the owner of a $30k Maui OF week and your asking me to pay a small fee or retro my property in so I can’t book what I already have because of the skim, what would my response be? I’d tell you to go out to Kaanapali Beach and pound sand. If you let me in for free then I might join you and be okay with playing in the sandbox on occasion.
> 
> At the end I don’t think there is any big calculations on what will maximize short term profits. Long term if they are to do well they need satisfied repeat customers. The easiest way to keep your existing customers happy (other than a functional website ) is to grandfather them in (other systems could learn a lesson here IMO).
> 
> Of course I could be wrong, but we’ll hopefully know soon how this all works.


Well said. As an OF resale owner, I am in the cat-bird seat:

a) Offer free enrollment, allow us to play in MVC system and learn about exchange options. Create goodwill. With familiarity, we would be open to buying more Abound points to use. Abound may see some of our prime WKORVN inventory and increased upsale. Abound owners win.

b) Charge for enrollment. Create badwill or  . We will continue to use, rent or trade VSN. We lose nothing. MVC loses opportunity for upsale. We will use more of our HGVC for trading since there is no buy-in for points stays. Also II and buy more VSN weeks resale.

Bottom line: Free enrollment is in their best interest for upsell. But we will be fine if it does not happen.


----------



## timsi

The more we get for free, the more upset will be those who bought retail to “upgrade“ to Abound. Depending on the agreement with Marriott International, there may also be a cost for MVC to give someone platinum or titanium Bonvoy status and I just can't see MVC that generous with the resale owners.  Maybe Marriott has found a way to make money from this dilemma with a two-tier enrollment for mandatory resale. Automatic just to trade in Abound but you must pay an enrollment fee to include all the features. Still cheaper than buying additional points but enough to avoid a lawsuit from those who "upgraded" in the last couple of years.

The Tuggers who own several mandatory resale weeks and who are today the best advocates for Abound and Marriott may change sides very fast when they realize they can only book at 10 months, bank for 12 months etc.


----------



## SVOTransplant

Jayco29D said:


> So then what value does the 8/9 date really have?



I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here.

Lots of people here are making predictions being shaped by their personal wish. Some are wishing they get a nice free retro, others are wishing they protect the value of something they paid dearly for.

If I take an uninformed, face value interpretation of “VSN Enrolled”, I personally map it to the “VSN Member = Yes” field at Vistana.com/what-i-own (ie, Yes for mandatory resales that are not authorized)

Why? Because I have a hard time imagining why there would be an 8/8 cut off date otherwise. If a retro after 8/8 works, why even mention the 8/8 date?

Maybe there’ll be a fee. Maybe not. I’ll happily wait until it’s announced. But I’m fairly certain retro via sales isn’t required, because that’s working both before 8/8 and after 8/8, meaning it’s not consistent with the announcement.


----------



## robertk2012

This seems pretty clear to me.  

*What are "eligible VOIs”?*

Eligible VOIs:
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.


----------



## JimT

Would someone help me by providing definitions of the different types of resales (voluntary v mandatory etc.) and the various ways they have been requalified into the Vistana (or Marriott) systems (what did you need to pay or purchase?).  Thanks!


----------



## SandyPGravel

kozykritter said:


> *Nobody can book a VSN property more than 12 months in advance, not even their owners.* No matter how many times the question is asked, that will still be the answer. Certain owners at SBP can book their week 24 months out I believe but that's a holdover from when Vistana took over the original developers timeshare. However, that unique situation will not transfer over if they elect their ownership to Abound. 12 mo max.


That's not exactly true.  I own a fixed/fixed @ WSJ and I book my unit, sometimes, up to 18 months in advance.  I can definitely book well over a year out.  It will be interesting to see if that changes.


----------



## timsi

robertk2012 said:


> This seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> *What are "eligible VOIs”?*
> 
> Eligible VOIs:
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.


That's not the latest version, currently it is:

Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer* will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.


----------



## robertk2012

__





						Login | Vistana Signature Experiences
					





					www.vistana.com


----------



## Jimmyboy

Fun to speculate but we are all just going to have to wait and see how this works out.


----------



## VacationForever

timsi said:


> That's not the latest version, currently it is:
> 
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer* will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.



This is not the current version in Vistana FAQ.  I only found @robertk2012's version.


----------



## timsi

SandyPGravel said:


> That's not exactly true.  I own a fixed/fixed @ WSJ and I book my unit, sometimes, up to 18 months in advance.  I can definitely book well over a year out.  It will be interesting to see if that changes.


The resort and VSN documents are very clear about the fixed weeks, there is no conflict with the home resort booking period and those units are set aside in advance, generally automatically.


----------



## kozykritter

MICROZE said:


> You may be onto *something*.
> 
> If VSN Mandatory resales are included in Abound [without a Retro and without a fee], they could permit them to exchange within Abound [same as Mandatory-Resales enjoy within VSN] but not count towards TS-Status [VSN: 4*/5* - Abound: Presidential/Chairmans] OR Bonvoy-Status [Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> This is possibly why some sheets show VSN-Enroll="Y" as well as VSN-Enroll-Eligible="Y" for Mandatory-Resales that are *NOT*-Retro'd.
> However, their Points to calc OBL [Owner-Benefit-Level] = 0 and Total *Non*-Enroll-Pts=Total-Mandatory-Resale-Points
> 
> Here is an example from a previous Post-#255
> View attachment 63827


You are 100% correct about how an unqualified mandatory resale will continue function in the VSN. It's been said several times in the information released that the way the VSN operates is not changing. Being eligible to participate in Abound has not changed how these ownerships will continue to be treated in the VSN. They will still have the restricted privileges as far as converting to bonvoy points or counting towards elite/recognition levels. The fact that they're assigning each ownership an Abound point value and using that value instead of SOs to set individual elite/recognition levels doesn't change the nature of unqualified mandatory resales in the system. VSN/Abound recognition levels will be determined by an owner's amount of qualified Vistana ownership plus any MVC points-eligible ownership they have. They've already said this in the FAQs.

Do anyone honestly think that Vistana would suddenly elevate an ordinary citizen with several unqualified mandatory resales in VSN up to the level of ruler of the kingdom without collecting a single bit of requalification $$? If someone was counting on/hoping their unqualified mandatory resales to give them a big boost in the VSN/Abound recognition level, it's time to recognize the emperor has no clothes in that respect!


----------



## robertk2012

The FAQ states that they will apply towards status level.


----------



## timsi

VacationForever said:


> This is not the current version in Vistana FAQ.  I only found @robertk2012's version.


Well, it is in this section








						IMPORTANT INFORMATION | Vistana™ Signature Experiences
					

For additional program information, please see the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ Exchange Procedures or view FAQ.   Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™ The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange...




					www.vistana.com


----------



## robertk2012

Status with abound determines the fee.  Hard to justify charging the higher status fee if you don’t include the status which for the most part provides fewer benefits than before.


----------



## timsi

robertk2012 said:


> Status with abound determines the fee.  Hard to justify charging the higher status fee if you don’t include the status which for the most part provides fewer benefits than before.


This is a good point but and if they do not include mandatory resale in the calculation for the higher status, they will just charge the lower fees according to the level.


----------



## VacationForever

timsi said:


> Well, it is in this section
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION | Vistana™ Signature Experiences
> 
> 
> For additional program information, please see the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ Exchange Procedures or view FAQ.   Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™ The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vistana.com



Thank you. I haven't followed most of the posts here.  Basically, there are 2 sections, one where you listed under important information, the other in FAQ and they have different verbiage.


----------



## robertk2012

Well we know they won’t want to charge lower fees 





timsi said:


> This is a good point but and if they do not include mandatory resale in the calculation for the higher status, they will just charge the lower fees according to the level.


----------



## robertk2012

The important information is the only place I see this version.  


VacationForever said:


> Thank you. I haven't followed most of the posts here.  Basically, there are 2 sections, one where you listed under important information, the other in FAQ and they have different verbiage.


----------



## SandyPGravel

timsi said:


> The resort and VSN documents are very clear about the fixed weeks, there is no conflict with the home resort booking period and those units are set aside in advance, generally automatically.


I just meant if I will see the ability to book at 18 months still or if that will tighten up.  I didn't think I would lose my ability to book it, just curious to see if it will still show up that early in my account.


----------



## timsi

robertk2012 said:


> Well we know they won’t want to charge lower fees


They will charge according to the level, whatever it is. If they do not to give Bonvoy status, enhanced banking and all the other benefits, why would they care about losing few dollars a year when they can save a lot more and ask those owners to buy additional points?


----------



## kozykritter

robertk2012 said:


> The FAQ states that they will apply towards status level.


It does not say specifically that unqualified mandatory resales will count. If you sincerely believe that Vistana will allow you all the benefits of full ownership in VSN without requalifying them and go against everything they have been doing and are still doing currently, then you are all set. While perhaps there is a legal requirement that resales can participate in Abound, that doesn't go backwards into the VSN to confer full privileges on those unqualified mandatory resales instead of the current restrictions.


----------



## robertk2012

It literally says it will count toward status.  Why have a cutoff date if you were going to require everyone to requalify?



timsi said:


> They will charge according to the level, whatever it is. If they do not to give Bonvoy status, enhanced banking and all the other benefits, why would they care about losing few dollars a year when they can save a lot more and ask those owners to buy additional points?


----------



## timsi

robertk2012 said:


> It literally says it will count toward status.  Why have a cutoff date if you were going to require everyone to requalify?


Because past the cutoff, the features for mandatory resale may be even more restricted probably just VSN or VSN and some very basic Abound capabilities.


----------



## kozykritter

robertk2012 said:


> It literally says it will count toward status.  Why have a cutoff date if you were going to require everyone to requalify?


That cut off date is for eligibility to enroll in Abound. It has nothing to do with other VSN privileges.


----------



## robertk2012

I’m done talking to the brick walls today.  Abound status is replacing VSN status.  No you might not be able to trade for bonvoy points but who really cares about that.


----------



## timsi

robertk2012 said:


> I’m done talking to the brick walls today.  Abound status is replacing VSN status.  No you might not be able to trade for bonvoy points but who really cares about that.


Of course Abound status is replacing VSN status, but currently mandatory resale is not included in the VSN status and due to the ambiguous verbiage, the inclusion does not seem guaranteed in Abound.


----------



## CPNY

robertk2012 said:


> It literally says it will count toward status.  Why have a cutoff date if you were going to require everyone to requalify?


Which status? I believe we will get owner level status for club points usage only. If you have no status in the VSN today you will continue to have no status with resales in the VSN. If your resales can convert to club points and you fall at chairman or executive status then you’ll have the perks of those levels when booking with club points. Bonvoy status will not come to those who do not currently get it via the VSN. This is what I believe


----------



## teddyo333

MICROZE said:


> You may be onto *something*.
> 
> If VSN Mandatory resales are included in Abound [without a Retro and without a fee], they could permit them to exchange within Abound [same as Mandatory-Resales enjoy within VSN] but not count towards TS-Status [VSN: 4*/5* - Abound: Presidential/Chairmans] OR Bonvoy-Status [Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> This is possibly why some sheets show VSN-Enroll="Y" as well as VSN-Enroll-Eligible="Y" for Mandatory-Resales that are *NOT*-Retro'd.
> However, their Points to calc OBL [Owner-Benefit-Level] = 0 and Total *Non*-Enroll-Pts=Total-Mandatory-Resale-Points
> 
> Here is an example from a previous Post-#255
> View attachment 63827



I think you may be right in respect to allowing mandatory units access to Abound without elite status or conversion of bonvoy points. But the image that was uploaded displaying OBL as 0 may not be accurate because it only reflects elite status as it pertains to VSN and not the new Abound program. This is also more likely since the FAQ states that ones elite status may change up or down based off of the new Abound program. The only item that is definitive as it pertains to elite status is the mapping of existing VSN elite owners to Abound elite status.


----------



## timsi

teddyo333 said:


> I think you may be right in respect to allowing mandatory units access to Abound without elite status or conversion of bonvoy points. But the image that was uploaded displaying OBL as 0 may not be accurate because it only reflects elite status as it pertains to VSN and not the new Abound program. This is also more likely since the FAQ states that ones elite status may change up or down based off of the new Abound program. The only item that is definitive as it pertains to elite status is the mapping of existing VSN elite owners to Abound elite status.


The image could have been from a time when Marriott had different intentions, it may not be a clear indication of what will happen in October.


----------



## Captron

KACTravels said:


> First question directly addresses decreased benefits for Elite levels
> Are there any benefits from my VSN Elite level that will no longer be available?
> * Early check-in, late check-out, and concierge service that may have been previously available, based on demand, will no longer be available. Additionally, VSN Members at the higher Owner benefit levels will no longer receive discounted fees since they are replaced by Club Dues.



I have not seen any mention of the "wait list" benefit. It was one driving force that convinced us to become 4*. I have used it once to obtain a Thanksgiving week at Harborside.
Have I missed it or has there been no mention of wait list for 4*/5* owners?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Which status? I believe we will get owner level status for club points usage only. If you have no status in the VSN today you will continue to have no status with resales in the VSN. If your resales can convert to club points and you fall at chairman or executive status then you’ll have the perks of those levels when booking with club points. Bonvoy status will not come to those who do not currently get it via the VSN. This is what I believe


This is something I am questioning. Note how they have to different verbiages of "owner benefit level" in a couple different places;
From the IMPORTANT INFORMATION link when you access the Abound information from SITE MAP




From the FAQ;




Note, in the first one above, "benefit level" is not capitalized. When they capitalize items it usually means they are defined terms somewhere. Also, in neither case does it say "benefit level*s*". Note the "s" at the end. I suspect it is quite possible that Abound points from mandatory unqualified VOIs will not count toward Abound Owner Benefit Levels above "Owner". So if you own two or three WKORV/N OF mandatory VOIs, you will still be able to elect Abound Club Points, but you won't get more than the Gold Bonvoy status and will only qualify for the benefits offered to those in the Owner benefit level.

It kind of makes sense, why would they or should they offer a full ticket into Abound for mandatory resale weeks? This kind of keeps the playing field level to where mandatory was in VSN.


----------



## kozykritter

robertk2012 said:


> I’m done talking to the brick walls today.  Abound status is replacing VSN status.  No you might not be able to trade for bonvoy points but who really cares about that.


Ditto


----------



## dlca1

Editing/deleting my post after reading some clarification about Base Exchange/Base Plus Exchange on a sister thread. Don't want to add to the confusion.

"Base Exchange Benefits mean the limited ability to make exchanges during the Open Reservation Period and access to such other programs and services defined and offered by Exchange Company as Base Exchange Benefits, from time to time, in Exchange Company’s sole discretion."


----------



## kozykritter

dlca1 said:


> Instead of elite levels, the single "Owner Benefit" may be referring to Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Special Benefits. (pg 12, https://content.marriottvacationclub.com/abound/Abound-by-Marriott-Vacations-Exchange-Procedures.pdf)
> 
> This could mean that unqualified mandatory pre-sale pre 8/9 get grandfathered with "Base Exchange Benefits" (which aren't nearly as attractive).
> 
> We wouldn't receive the "Special benefits" (Cruises, hotel points, etc) and is consistent with sales messaging. No big deal. However,  Base Exchange vs Base Plus Exchange seems to be significant.
> 
> _"Base Exchange Benefits mean the limited ability to make exchanges during the Open Reservation Period and access to such other programs and services defined and offered by Exchange Company as Base Exchange Benefits, from time to time, in Exchange Company’s sole discretion."
> 
> "Special Benefits mean special products, services, benefits, and vacation/recreational experiences offered by Exchange Company, including, without limitation, the ability to reserve hotel accommodations, cruises, other travel services, and to receive PlusPoints. *The ability to utilize a Special Benefit may not be available to all Program Members including, specifically, Program Members who are entitled only to Base Exchange Benefits*. If Special Benefits are available and a Program Member is eligible to purchase or utilize any Special Benefits, separate terms and conditions shall apply to the purchase and use of such Special Benefits."_


So putting this together with the attached chart for the new recognition levels for VSN and for Club Point use plus Dioxide's post, that would limit the use of Club Points for these ownership to the Open Reservation period. The Abound Exchange Procedures defines Open Reservation Period as being the period beginning sixty (60) days before the first day of a given unreserved Use Period.


----------



## dioxide45

dlca1 said:


> Instead of elite levels, the single "Owner Benefit" may be referring to Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Special Benefits. (pg 12, https://content.marriottvacationclub.com/abound/Abound-by-Marriott-Vacations-Exchange-Procedures.pdf)
> 
> This could mean that unqualified mandatory pre-sale pre 8/9 get grandfathered with "Base Exchange Benefits" (which aren't nearly as attractive).
> 
> We wouldn't receive the "Special benefits" (Cruises, hotel points, etc) and is consistent with sales messaging. No big deal. However,  Base Exchange vs Base Plus Exchange seems to be significant.
> 
> _"Base Exchange Benefits mean the limited ability to make exchanges during the Open Reservation Period and access to such other programs and services defined and offered by Exchange Company as Base Exchange Benefits, from time to time, in Exchange Company’s sole discretion."
> 
> "Special Benefits mean special products, services, benefits, and vacation/recreational experiences offered by Exchange Company, including, without limitation, the ability to reserve hotel accommodations, cruises, other travel services, and to receive PlusPoints. *The ability to utilize a Special Benefit may not be available to all Program Members including, specifically, Program Members who are entitled only to Base Exchange Benefits*. If Special Benefits are available and a Program Member is eligible to purchase or utilize any Special Benefits, separate terms and conditions shall apply to the purchase and use of such Special Benefits."_


Possible, but if that was the case they would have been more specific. They are specifically mentioning owner benefit levels and thost are defined as Owner, Select, Executive, etc.

While Marriott has provisions to limit resale trust points to Base Exchange Benefits, they have given them all benefits as long as they pay the Initiation Fees after purchase.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> So putting this together with the attached chart for the new recognition levels for VSN and for Club Point use plus Dioxide's post, that would limit the use of Club Points for these ownership to the Open Reservation period. The Abound Exchange Procedures defines Open Reservation Period as being the period beginning sixty (60) days before the first day of a given unreserved Use Period.


But the "Owner" benefit level gets access far beyond Base Exchange Benefits;


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> As to resales, what does opportunity mean? You could read it as you will have to take an affirmative action to enroll the week in Abound, such as paying a fee. But we also know that we will have to opt-out if we want to retain the current VSN fee structure and not be in Abound.


How do you know that, "Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees." applies to Mandatory Resales?

Mandatory owners could go either way. However If they give Mandatory Resale Owners free access to Abound, it doesn't make sense to me that they would give them the opportunity to opt-out. I think Mandatory Resale Owners would simply be in the new Abound Benefits VSN. My understanding from what I've read, is that Mandatory Resale Owners must be in the club. VSN is still going to be our club. Transferring ownership to Abound is a benefit, not a club. Has MVC or Vistana ever given any free benefits to Resale owners? Free access to Abound would be a huge benefit give.

I personally think that the opt-out language is for some special situation where people owned their timeshare prior to SPG/Vistana purchasing their resort.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> This is not the current version in Vistana FAQ.  I only found @robertk2012's version.


Both versions are on the website. See post #894


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> How do you know that, "Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees." applies to Mandatory Resales?
> 
> I would think that Voluntary Resale owners would simply remain in VSN. There is nothing in Abound for them.
> 
> Mandatory owners could go either way. However If they give Mandatory Resale Owners free access to Abound, it doesn't make sense to me that they would give them the opportunity to opt-out. I think Mandatory Resale Owners would simply be in the new Abound Benefits VSN. My understanding from what I've read, is that Mandatory Resale Owners must be in the club. VSN is still going to be our club. Transferring ownership to Abound is a benefit, not a club. Has MVC or Vistana ever given any free benefits to Resale owners? Free access to Abound would be a huge benefit give.
> 
> I personally think that the opt-out language is for some special situation where people owned their timeshare prior to SPG/Vistana purchasing their resort.


Voluntary resale owners won't be in VSN. No VSN, no Abound.

Vistana and Marriott haven't defined who is able to opt-out. That is mentioned several times in the FAQ. It mentions owners who are able to opt-out. We haven't seen any criteria to determine who can opt-out.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Voluntary resale owners won't be in VSN. No VSN, no Abound.
> 
> Vistana and Marriott haven't defined who is able to opt-out. That is mentioned several times in the FAQ. It mentions owners who are able to opt-out. We haven't seen any criteria to determine who can opt-out.


This is a terrible roll out. No point chart with skim, no clarification on important details of who’s eligible and what benefits can be taken advantage of. It’s just a really bad customer experience.


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> This is a terrible roll out. No point chart with skim, no clarification on important details of who’s eligible and what benefits can be taken advantage of. It’s just a really bad customer experience.


Now that is something we can all agree on!


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> This is a terrible roll out. No point chart with skim, no clarification on important details of who’s eligible and what benefits can be taken advantage of. It’s just a really bad customer experience.



Be honest…is anyone here surprised at this? I know I’m not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jayco29D

timsi said:


> That's not the latest version, currently it is:
> 
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer* will be given the opportunity* to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.



On the Vistana website, it is completely different language. On TUG, folks seem to be quoting the website version they hope will be true.


----------



## robertk2012

Read the FAQ 



Jayco29D said:


> On the Vistana website, it is completely different language. On TUG, folks seem to be quoting the website version they hope will be true.


----------



## CPNY

Jayco29D said:


> On the Vistana website, it is completely different language. On TUG, folks seem to be quoting the website version they hope will be true.


The fact that it’s completely different language is concerning to me. The confusion they are creating seems to be done on purpose.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Ken555 said:


> Be honest…is anyone here surprised at this? I know I’m not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


And then people wonder why the IT experience is such a mess. If the offering is so complicated that you can't even explain it to people in simple language then what chance do the programmers have?


----------



## Ken555

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> And then people wonder why the IT experience is such a mess. If the offering is so complicated that you can't even explain it to people in simple language then what chance do the programmers have?



No. Based on my experience, the IT issues are likely due to a messed up IT department and/or outsourcing to the wrong firm. The problems we have experienced on the site over the last 6-9 months are not due to changing program rules.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

Jayco29D said:


> On the Vistana website, it is completely different language. On TUG, folks seem to be quoting the website version they hope will be true.


The version with "Owner Benefit Level" is in the FAQ. The only way to find "Owner benefit level" on Vistana.com is to go through one of the links at the top of the FAQ or through the SITE MAP.


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> You may be onto *something*.
> 
> If VSN Mandatory resales are included in Abound [without a Retro and without a fee], they could permit them to exchange within Abound [same as Mandatory-Resales enjoy within VSN] but not count towards TS-Status [VSN: 4*/5* - Abound: Presidential/Chairmans] OR Bonvoy-Status [Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> This is possibly why some sheets show VSN-Enroll="Y" as well as VSN-Enroll-Eligible="Y" for Mandatory-Resales that are *NOT*-Retro'd.
> However, their Points to calc OBL [Owner-Benefit-Level] = 0 and Total *Non*-Enroll-Pts=Total-Mandatory-Resale-Points
> 
> Here is an example from a previous Post-#255
> View attachment 63827


Here is what our sheet looks like in the same regard. We are also Marriott owners with 4,125 Club Points and Select status. Our mandatory resale Vistana weeks add up to the 3,525 below. It is hard to tell what "Pts to calc OBL" is actually counting. Is it counting points that could count toward OBL or is it counting enrolled points that could count toward OBL?


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what our sheet looks like in the same regard. We are also Marriott owners with 4,125 Club Points and Select status. Our mandatory resale Vistana weeks add up to the 3,525 below. It is hard to tell what "Pts to calc OBL" is actually counting. Is it counting points that could count toward OBL or is it counting enrolled points that could count toward OBL?
> View attachment 63875


Interesting. Mine are as follows..

Pts to calc OBL: 0
Total Non enroll pts: 0
OBL: Standard
VSN level: 3Star

I have two developer-purchased SFlex VOIs (=4,695 Club Points, Y flags in every column) so my zeros would make sense and imply the calc OBL is points used to calculate currently active level (Select for you) meaning based on MVC points since VSN points aren't yet active (Abound not launched). That Standard thing must be what they put in for someone that isn't a MVC owner.  I purchased my 1000 MVC points after this sheet was made and think that would have gone in the calc OBL line in an updated sheet and my OBL changed to Owner.


----------



## timsi

Jayco29D said:


> On the Vistana website, it is completely different language. On TUG, folks seem to be quoting the website version they hope will be true.


I mentioned where I found the information. Do not blame other owners if they have several versions. I have to point out that they are very clear when they want to be clear, this is not vague by chance. Maybe they do not know yet or maybe they do not want to mention on their site that the enrollment fee for mandatory resale is 1 kidney per VOI because it does not rhyme well with such a happy event. 









						IMPORTANT INFORMATION | Vistana™ Signature Experiences
					

For additional program information, please see the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ Exchange Procedures or view FAQ.   Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™ The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange...




					www.vistana.com


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Ken555 said:


> No. Based on my experience, the IT issues are likely due to a messed up IT department and/or outsourcing to the wrong firm. The problems we have experienced on the site over the last 6-9 months are not due to changing program rules.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'd say more likely trying to integrate two legacy systems (one of them very archaic apparently) with some quite complex underlying/conflicting business rules.


----------



## MICROZE

I think I may have *"Cracked The Code"*.
How do I pin this post so that I can come back and read it on OCT-01-2022?

One of CPNY's post set a light bulb off.

Here is what I predict [about 90% certainty] will happen OCT-01-2022 [that is if Marriott does not move the date]
This is not based on any insider info. It is based on attending multiple presentations [Marriott + Vistana], parsing the FAQ's as well as tid-bits of info/data I have read on TUG.

Enrollment: All VSN-Members [Developer-Direct + Mandatory-Resales] will automatically be enrolled in Abound.
This will result in a Single Abound-Club-Dues [replace VSN Al-La-Carte-Fees]. This fee will be based on Abound-Status.

Enrollment-Fee: There could be a small enrollment fee.
If it's structured like 2010. The fee could be $995 for Direct and $1595 for Mandatory-Resales. It could be 1-Fee for 1-Contract and slightly higher for Multiple-Contracts.

Abound-Benefits: All VSN-Members [Developer-Purchases: Mandatory + Voluntary] + [Mandatory-Resales *Retroe'd*] will enjoy all benefits in Abound as they do today within VSN.
Your VSN-Contracts Star-Options will be mapped to a Abound-Points equivalent based on published charts.
These Abound-Points will dictate what you can exchange into within the Abound system.

Mandatory-Resales: All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd as well as *Non*-Retro'd] will also be enrolled in Abound.
All Mandatory-Resales [*Retroe'd* with VSN-Privileges] will enjoy full Abound privileges.
All Mandatory-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd]
Will enjoy the same benefits that they do today within VSN, Star-Options do not count toward Elite-Status [3*/4*/5*-Elite]. No option to convert to Bonvoy-Points.
Abound-Exchanges: Can Elect Club-Points and exchange into other properties within Abound. Just like they can exchange within VSN.
Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Abound-Status [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans].
Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Bonvoy-Status [Gold/Platinum/Titanium].


Voluntary-Contracts
All Voluntary-Contracts [Direct-Developer/Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
All Voluntary-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd] will *NOT* be enrolled in Abound. They can use their Home-Resort via VSN or exchange via INTERVAL like they do today.

Abound-Status/Bonvoy-Status
Abound-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
Bonvoy-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.

Abound-Club-Dues
Abound-Club-Dues will be calculated Depending on Abound-Status.
If some contracts are Direct/Retroe'd and some are *Non*-Retroe'd only the Direct/Retroe'd will count toward Abound-Status which will dictate Club-Dues.

VSN-Accounts
VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Accounts.
VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Elite-Status
Elite-Status [Calculated based on qualified contracts] will dictate their Abound-Status.

If enrolled with Abound, each year VSN-Members can elect to deposit some contracts into Abound or choose to exchange via VSN.

Dual-Ownerships
VSN-Members who are also MVCI-Members will continue to maintain 2 x Accounts.
These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Abound-Status. E.g. VSN: 5*-Elite [Abound: Chairmans] as well as MVCI: Executive.
These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Bonvoy-Status. E.g. VSN-Titanium as well as MVCI: Platinum
*CORRECTION-EDIT*: Based on info from others it looks like there will be only ONE/SINGLE/COMBINED-Account.

Opt-Out: All VSN-Members can choose to Opt-Out and continue to transact business as-is via VSN or Interval as they do today.
PRE AUG-09-2022: This primarily affects Mandatory-Resales
Voluntary-Resales: These would not be eligible [akin to Marriott-Resales] to participate within Abound irrespective of date. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
Mandatory-Resales: All contracts as of AUG-08-2022 will be treated based on the above 10 principles.
Post AUG-08-022: Any Mandatory-Resales will be treated as Marriott-Resales and *not be eligible* for either *VSN *or Abound. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
This cut-off was created to prevent gaming the new system.



Reflecting back on the info that Marriott provided.
All VSN-Members will have the opportunity to participate in the new Abound program.
Nothing will change for VSN-Members and they can continue to transact business as-is today [VSN and/or Interval] if they choose not to enroll.
VSN members that opt-in will have a single Club-Dues and access to Abound inventory.

*NOTE*: I read the Marriott information with a filter.
All Marriott info [including FAQ's] need to be read with the following caveat.

Marriott only sees Developer-Purchases [not even Retro'd]. Non one else exists.
The FAQ's were written with these Developer-Direct-Owners in mind.
As a member of TUG, I have assumed the FAQ's apply to all my contracts [including resale].
*ASK*: This is my interpretation of what will happen, so please don't beat me up. Please help me vet the above with the various scenarios / permutations of owners we have on TUG.


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what our sheet looks like in the same regard. We are also Marriott owners with 4,125 Club Points and Select status. Our mandatory resale Vistana weeks add up to the 3,525 below. It is hard to tell what "Pts to calc OBL" is actually counting. Is it counting points that could count toward OBL or is it counting enrolled points that could count toward OBL?
> View attachment 63875


Thanks for sharing your data.

It helps me vet my theory in Post-#916.
Your Mandatory-Resale [assuming it's not retroe'd] will automatically be enrolled in Abound [just like it is permitted to participate in VSN today].
If your Mandatory-Resale is not retroe'd, it does not count toward VSN-Elite-Status [thus it will not count toward Abound-Status] +*"Points to calc OBL"* [Ower-Benefit-Level].
If your Mandatory-Resale is not retroe'd, it will show up under *"Total Non Enroll Pts"*.


----------



## dlca1

Most of what @MICROZE proposes sounds very plausible/likely. One exception.



MICROZE said:


> Post 8/9/2022: Any Mandatory-Resales will be treated as Marriott-Resales and not be eligible for either VSN or Abound. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.


Shouldn't mandatory resale post cutoff still have VSN?


----------



## Jayco29D

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what our sheet looks like in the same regard. We are also Marriott owners with 4,125 Club Points and Select status. Our mandatory resale Vistana weeks add up to the 3,525 below. It is hard to tell what "Pts to calc OBL" is actually counting. Is it counting points that could count toward OBL or is it counting enrolled points that could count toward OBL?
> View attachment 63875



So if it says Non-enrolled Points, does that mean it is not being counted as being in the VSN and an eligible VOI? If so, then what does the 8/9 date actually mean? Probably no one knows right now.


----------



## kozykritter

MICROZE said:


> I think I may have *"Cracked The Code"*.
> How do I pin this post so that I can come back and read it on OCT-01-2022?
> 
> One of CPNY's post set a light bulb off.
> 
> Here is what I predict [about 90% certainty] will happen OCT-01-2022 [that is if Marriott does not move the date]
> This is not based on any insider info. It is based on attending multiple presentations [Marriott + Vistana], parsing the FAQ's as well as tid-bits of info/data I have read on TUG.
> 
> Enrollment: All VSN-Members [Developer-Direct + Mandatory-Resales] will automatically be enrolled in Abound.
> This will result in a Single Abound-Club-Dues [replace VSN Al-La-Carte-Fees]. This fee will be based on Abound-Status.
> 
> Enrollment-Fee: There could be a small enrollment fee.
> If it's structured like 2010. The fee could be $995 for Direct and $1595 for Mandatory-Resales. It could be 1-Fee for 1-Contract and slightly higher for Multiple-Contracts.
> 
> Abound-Benefits: All VSN-Members [Developer-Purchases: Mandatory + Voluntary] + [Mandatory-Resales *Retroe'd*] will enjoy all benefits in Abound as they do today within VSN.
> Your VSN-Contracts Star-Options will be mapped to a Abound-Points equivalent based on published charts.
> These Abound-Points will dictate what you can exchange into within the Abound system.
> 
> Mandatory-Resales: All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd as well as *Non*-Retro'd] will also be enrolled in Abound.
> All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
> All Mandatory-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd]
> Will enjoy the same benefits that they do today within VSN, Star-Options do not count toward Elite-Status [3*/4*/5*-Elite]. No option to convert to Bonvoy-Points.
> Abound-Exchanges: Can Elect Club-Points and exchange into other properties within Abound. Just like they can exchange within VSN.
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Abound-Status [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans].
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Bonvoy-Status [Gold/Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> 
> Voluntary-Contracts
> All Voluntary-Contracts [Direct-Developer/Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
> All Voluntary-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd] will *NOT* be enrolled in Abound. They can use their Home-Resort via VSN or exchange via INTERVAL like they do today.
> 
> Abound-Status/Bonvoy-Status
> Abound-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> Bonvoy-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> 
> Abound-Club-Dues
> Abound-Club-Dues will be calculated Depending on Abound-Status.
> If some contracts are Direct/Retroe'd and some are *Non*-Retroe'd only the Direct/Retroe'd will count toward Abound-Status which will dictate Club-Dues.
> 
> VSN-Accounts
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Accounts.
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Elite-Status
> Elite-Status [Calculated based on qualified contracts] will dictate their Abound-Status.
> 
> If enrolled with Abound, each year VSN-Members can elect to deposit some contracts into Abound or choose to exchange via VSN.
> 
> Dual-Ownerships
> VSN-Members who are also MVCI-Members will continue to maintain 2 x Accounts.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Abound-Status. E.g. VSN: 5*-Elite [Abound: Chairmans] as well as MVCI: Executive.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Bonvoy-Status. E.g. VSN-Titanium as well as MVCI: Platinum
> 
> Opt-Out: All VSN-Members can choose to Opt-Out and continue to transact business as-is via VSN or Interval as they do today.
> PRE 8/8/2022: This primarily affects Mandatory-Resales
> Voluntary-Resales: These would not be eligible [akin to Marriott-Resales] to participate within Abound irrespective of date. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> Mandatory-Resales: All contracts as of 8/8/2022 will be treated based on the above 10 principles.
> Post 8/9/2022: Any Mandatory-Resales will be treated as Marriott-Resales and not be eligible for either VSN or Abound. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> This cut-off was created to prevent gaming the new system.
> 
> 
> 
> Reflecting back on the info that Marriott provided.
> All VSN-Members will have the opportunity to participate in the new Abound program.
> Nothing will change for VSN-Members and they can continue to transact business as-is today if they choose not to enroll.
> VSN members that opt-in will have a single Club-Dues.
> 
> *NOTE*: I read the Marriott information with a filter.
> All Marriott info [including FAQ's] need to be read with the following caveat.
> 
> Marriott only sees Developer-Purchases [not even Retro'd]. Non one else exists.
> The FAQ's were written with these Developer-Direct-Owners in mind.
> As a member of TUG, I have assumed the FAQ's apply to all my contracts [including resale].
> *ASK*: This is my interpretation of what will happen, so please don't beat me up. Please help me vet the above with the various scenarios / permutations of owners we have on TUG.


Thank you for the comprehensive (and brave!) summary of all the information and impressions you've received. You have such a clear writing and display style with your posts that make them so easy to read. I'm a fan.

I'd say move your check date back from October 1 to October 31st, now that their latest communique says late October.

My mind pulled out a few differences it holds versus your summary but since everything is theoretical until it's not, there's no point in going over them. I'll leave that to the wave of people that are lining up to tell you how they think you are wrong (if history is any indicator  ).


----------



## MICROZE

kozykritter said:


> Interesting. Mine are as follows..
> 
> Pts to calc OBL: 0
> Total Non enroll pts: 0
> OBL: Standard
> VSN level: 3Star
> 
> I have two developer-purchased SFlex VOIs (=4,695 Club Points, Y flags in every column) so my zeros would make sense and imply the calc OBL is points used to calculate currently active level (Select for you) meaning based on MVC points since VSN points aren't yet active (Abound not launched). That Standard thing must be what they put in for someone that isn't a MVC owner.  I purchased my 1000 MVC points after this sheet was made and think that would have gone in the calc OBL line in an updated sheet and my OBL changed to Owner.


Since you are a VSN-Exclusive [Non-MVCI] owner, none of your VSN-Points show up yet.
If any of your VSN-Contracts are Direct-Purchase or Retro'd, they will count toward OBL and Bonvoy-Level once the system is live.


----------



## MICROZE

dlca1 said:


> Most of what @MICROZE proposes sounds very plausible/likely. One exception.
> 
> 
> Shouldn't mandatory resale post cutoff still have VSN?


Good question. I suspect things are going to change for POST 8/8/2022 resales and it could be a dramatic change for Mandatory-Resales. Duck for cover.


----------



## timsi

MICROZE said:


> I think I may have *"Cracked The Code"*.
> How do I pin this post so that I can come back and read it on OCT-01-2022?
> 
> One of CPNY's post set a light bulb off.
> 
> Here is what I predict [about 90% certainty] will happen OCT-01-2022 [that is if Marriott does not move the date]
> This is not based on any insider info. It is based on attending multiple presentations [Marriott + Vistana], parsing the FAQ's as well as tid-bits of info/data I have read on TUG.
> 
> Enrollment: All VSN-Members [Developer-Direct + Mandatory-Resales] will automatically be enrolled in Abound.
> This will result in a Single Abound-Club-Dues [replace VSN Al-La-Carte-Fees]. This fee will be based on Abound-Status.
> 
> Enrollment-Fee: There could be a small enrollment fee.
> If it's structured like 2010. The fee could be $995 for Direct and $1595 for Mandatory-Resales. It could be 1-Fee for 1-Contract and slightly higher for Multiple-Contracts.
> 
> Abound-Benefits: All VSN-Members [Developer-Purchases: Mandatory + Voluntary] + [Mandatory-Resales *Retroe'd*] will enjoy all benefits in Abound as they do today within VSN.
> Mandatory-Resales: All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd as well as *Non*-Retro'd] will also be enrolled in Abound.
> All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
> All Mandatory-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd]
> Will enjoy the same benefits that they do today within VSN, Star-Options do not count toward Elite-Status [3*/4*/5*-Elite]. No option to convert to Bonvoy-Points.
> Abound-Exchanges: Can Elect Club-Points and exchange into other properties within Abound. Just like they can exchange within VSN.
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Abound-Status [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans].
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Bonvoy-Status [Gold/Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> 
> Voluntary-Contracts
> All Voluntary-Contracts [Direct-Developer/Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
> All Voluntary-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd] will *NOT* be enrolled in Abound. They can use their Home-Resort via VSN or exchange via INTERVAL like they do today.
> 
> Abound-Status/Bonvoy-Status
> Abound-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> Bonvoy-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> 
> Abound-Club-Dues
> Abound-Club-Dues will be calculated Depending on Abound-Status.
> If some contracts are Direct/Retroe'd and some are *Non*-Retroe'd only the Direct/Retroe'd will count toward Abound-Status which will dictate Club-Dues.
> 
> VSN-Accounts
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Accounts.
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Elite-Status
> Elite-Status [Calculated based on qualified contracts] will dictate their Abound-Status.
> 
> If enrolled with Abound, each year VSN-Members can elect to deposit some contracts into Abound or choose to exchange via VSN.
> 
> Dual-Ownerships
> VSN-Members who are also MVCI-Members will continue to maintain 2 x Accounts.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Abound-Status. E.g. VSN: 5*-Elite [Abound: Chairmans] as well as MVCI: Executive.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Bonvoy-Status. E.g. VSN-Titanium as well as MVCI: Platinum
> 
> Opt-Out: All VSN-Members can choose to Opt-Out and continue to transact business as-is via VSN or Interval as they do today.
> PRE 8/8/2022: This primarily affects Mandatory-Resales
> Voluntary-Resales: These would not be eligible [akin to Marriott-Resales] to participate within Abound irrespective of date. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> Mandatory-Resales: All contracts as of 8/8/2022 will be treated based on the above 10 principles.
> Post 8/9/2022: Any Mandatory-Resales will be treated as Marriott-Resales and not be eligible for either VSN or Abound. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> This cut-off was created to prevent gaming the new system.
> 
> 
> 
> Reflecting back on the info that Marriott provided.
> All VSN-Members will have the opportunity to participate in the new Abound program.
> Nothing will change for VSN-Members and they can continue to transact business as-is today if they choose not to enroll.
> VSN members that opt-in will have a single Club-Dues.
> 
> *NOTE*: I read the Marriott information with a filter.
> All Marriott info [including FAQ's] need to be read with the following caveat.
> 
> Marriott only sees Developer-Purchases [not even Retro'd]. Non one else exists.
> The FAQ's were written with these Developer-Direct-Owners in mind.
> As a member of TUG, I have assumed the FAQ's apply to all my contracts [including resale].
> *ASK*: This is my interpretation of what will happen, so please don't beat me up. Please help me vet the above with the various scenarios / permutations of owners we have on TUG.



I think this is the most possible scenario. IMO the Tuggers who own mandatory and voluntary Vistana resale, especially those who have a low Abound status have not pushed back hard enough ( or at all) for what we lose from this change. We are losing prime VSN inventory at our favorite home resorts during the home reservation period and later VSN inventory during the network reservation period where everyone has equal opportunity to book, in exchange for leftover Inventory in Abound after those with status have scooped up the best nights. This is not an equal trade, and I find very misleading the "no change" clam that Brian made in that video. Of course, to make it worse other benefits are being reduced or eliminated. They will claim we can always opt out, wait for the talking points but after we lost many things that we currently enjoy and that will not be a real fix. I do not care how Marriott regards resale, the truth is that the developers do not lose one dime the moment a deed changes hands resale and their only reason for all the shenanigans is because they want to squeeze more money from contracts they already sold once or multiple times before. 

These are not small changes and I hope that Tuggers, regardless of what they own, will help those that are clear losers. Marriott owners, we also need your support.


----------



## kozykritter

MICROZE said:


> I think I may have *"Cracked The Code"*.
> How do I pin this post so that I can come back and read it on OCT-01-2022?
> 
> One of CPNY's post set a light bulb off.
> 
> Here is what I predict [about 90% certainty] will happen OCT-01-2022 [that is if Marriott does not move the date]
> This is not based on any insider info. It is based on attending multiple presentations [Marriott + Vistana], parsing the FAQ's as well as tid-bits of info/data I have read on TUG.
> 
> Enrollment: All VSN-Members [Developer-Direct + Mandatory-Resales] will automatically be enrolled in Abound.
> This will result in a Single Abound-Club-Dues [replace VSN Al-La-Carte-Fees]. This fee will be based on Abound-Status.
> 
> Enrollment-Fee: There could be a small enrollment fee.
> If it's structured like 2010. The fee could be $995 for Direct and $1595 for Mandatory-Resales. It could be 1-Fee for 1-Contract and slightly higher for Multiple-Contracts.
> 
> Abound-Benefits: All VSN-Members [Developer-Purchases: Mandatory + Voluntary] + [Mandatory-Resales *Retroe'd*] will enjoy all benefits in Abound as they do today within VSN.
> Your VSN-Contracts Star-Options will be mapped to a Abound-Points equivalent based on published charts.
> These Abound-Points will dictate what you can exchange into within the Abound system.
> 
> Mandatory-Resales: All Mandatory-Resales [Retroe'd as well as *Non*-Retro'd] will also be enrolled in Abound.
> All Mandatory-Resales [*Retroe'd* with VSN-Privileges] will enjoy full Abound privileges.
> All Mandatory-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd]
> Will enjoy the same benefits that they do today within VSN, Star-Options do not count toward Elite-Status [3*/4*/5*-Elite]. No option to convert to Bonvoy-Points.
> Abound-Exchanges: Can Elect Club-Points and exchange into other properties within Abound. Just like they can exchange within VSN.
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Abound-Status [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans].
> Abound-Status: Non-Retro'd contracts will *NOT* count toward Bonvoy-Status [Gold/Platinum/Titanium].
> 
> 
> Voluntary-Contracts
> All Voluntary-Contracts [Direct-Developer/Retroe'd with VSN-Privileges] will also be enrolled in Abound with full privileges.
> All Voluntary-Resales [*Non*-Retro'd] will *NOT* be enrolled in Abound. They can use their Home-Resort via VSN or exchange via INTERVAL like they do today.
> 
> Abound-Status/Bonvoy-Status
> Abound-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> Bonvoy-Status will be calculated based on Direct-Purchases + Resales-Retroe'd.
> 
> Abound-Club-Dues
> Abound-Club-Dues will be calculated Depending on Abound-Status.
> If some contracts are Direct/Retroe'd and some are *Non*-Retroe'd only the Direct/Retroe'd will count toward Abound-Status which will dictate Club-Dues.
> 
> VSN-Accounts
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Accounts.
> VSN-Members enrolled with Abound will continue to retain their VSN-Elite-Status
> Elite-Status [Calculated based on qualified contracts] will dictate their Abound-Status.
> 
> If enrolled with Abound, each year VSN-Members can elect to deposit some contracts into Abound or choose to exchange via VSN.
> 
> Dual-Ownerships
> VSN-Members who are also MVCI-Members will continue to maintain 2 x Accounts.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Abound-Status. E.g. VSN: 5*-Elite [Abound: Chairmans] as well as MVCI: Executive.
> These Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Bonvoy-Status. E.g. VSN-Titanium as well as MVCI: Platinum
> 
> Opt-Out: All VSN-Members can choose to Opt-Out and continue to transact business as-is via VSN or Interval as they do today.
> PRE 8/8/2022: This primarily affects Mandatory-Resales
> Voluntary-Resales: These would not be eligible [akin to Marriott-Resales] to participate within Abound irrespective of date. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> Mandatory-Resales: All contracts as of 8/8/2022 will be treated based on the above 10 principles.
> Post 8/9/2022: Any Mandatory-Resales will be treated as Marriott-Resales and *not be eligible* for either *VSN *or Abound. Can be retroe'd with a purchase.
> This cut-off was created to prevent gaming the new system.
> 
> 
> 
> Reflecting back on the info that Marriott provided.
> All VSN-Members will have the opportunity to participate in the new Abound program.
> Nothing will change for VSN-Members and they can continue to transact business as-is today if they choose not to enroll.
> VSN members that opt-in will have a single Club-Dues.
> 
> *NOTE*: I read the Marriott information with a filter.
> All Marriott info [including FAQ's] need to be read with the following caveat.
> 
> Marriott only sees Developer-Purchases [not even Retro'd]. Non one else exists.
> The FAQ's were written with these Developer-Direct-Owners in mind.
> As a member of TUG, I have assumed the FAQ's apply to all my contracts [including resale].
> *ASK*: This is my interpretation of what will happen, so please don't beat me up. Please help me vet the above with the various scenarios / permutations of owners we have on TUG.


I do have two suggested modifications...take 'em, don't take 'em...it's your summary. They have definitely stated that they are replacing VSN elite levels with Abound recognition levels in the VSN. That's why they mapped them to Abound levels. The attached chart shows how those levels would operate in the VSN with a second chart showing how they would operate in Abound. If they were keeping the existing VSN elite levels they would show in the VSN section of the chart, I feel.

The other is for dual owners in bullet #2, the FAQs have stated that their ownership in VSN and MVC would be combined to determine their Abound level and that level would apply across both programs with only one Club Dues fee charged (at whatever combined level).


----------



## wannagotoo

That is the Reader's Digest version of the last l41 pages I have read and sounds reasonable, thanks. But there is the problem, it makes too much sense.


----------



## Ken555

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> I'd say more likely trying to integrate two legacy systems (one of them very archaic apparently) with some quite complex underlying/conflicting business rules.



Merging two systems isn’t always easy, but would not explain why there have been months and months of web site errors. Don’t conflate the two issues.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Good question. I suspect things are going to change for POST 8/8/2022 resales and it could be a dramatic change for Mandatory-Resales. Duck for cover.


I see no change for future VSN access for mandatory resale contracts. As long as the VSN agreement is in place and there is a VSN then mandatory resale contracts will have access.

This is probably why they will still have the old VSN fee structure. I’m sure that fee structure will remain in place for both Abound opt outs and Post 8/9 mandatory resale


----------



## Jayco29D

When I was in the sales office, they did see what I own with Vistana. At first they told me I was automatically enrolled. Then I said, are you sure. He went to the manager and came back and said I needed to by 1000 points to enroll. LOL  Not sure what the truth is.


----------



## VacationForever

Jayco29D said:


> When I was in the sales office, they did see what I own with Vistana. At first they told me I was automatically enrolled. Then I said, are you sure. He went to the manager and came back and said I needed to by 1000 points to enroll. LOL  Not sure what the truth is.


Dog and pony show.


----------



## rickandcindy23

If you want to be a part of the new Abound system, then pay to get it, but I am keeping everything as-is.  

Until all inventory in II dries up, my Marriott floating platinum weeks are working very well to secure some great vacations.  Now that Disney is in II, I have lots of reasons to stick with II for almost every vacation.  

Too bad it's so tough to get the exchanges I want on Maui.  Oh, wait, that is why we now own five weeks on Maui.


----------



## bice01

From my owners update 2 weeks ago: 

among the various issues that are delaying the finalization of Abound, is WSJ.  There, very large portions of the (mandatory) ownership is already in resale hands and the proposed Abound value to these owners isn't compelling, in light the high maintenance fee/cash rental market dynamics there.  

My impression is that they want WSJ inventory in Abound, for current members and for future sales, but they see that they are creating an uncompelling situation.


----------



## timsi

bice01 said:


> From my owners update 2 weeks ago:
> 
> among the various issues that are delaying the finalization of Abound, is WSJ.  There, very large portions of the (mandatory) ownership is already in resale hands and the proposed Abound value to these owners isn't compelling, in light the high maintenance fee/cash rental market dynamics there.
> 
> My impression is that they want WSJ inventory in Abound, for current members and for future sales, but they see that they are creating an uncompelling situation.


So they know the value of 90+ resorts but they couldn't figure out the numbers for WSJ?


----------



## Eric B

bice01 said:


> From my owners update 2 weeks ago:
> 
> among the various issues that are delaying the finalization of Abound, is WSJ.  There, very large portions of the (mandatory) ownership is already in resale hands and the proposed Abound value to these owners isn't compelling, in light the high maintenance fee/cash rental market dynamics there.
> 
> My impression is that they want WSJ inventory in Abound, for current members and for future sales, but they see that they are creating an uncompelling situation.



Well, I've got several mandatory resale weeks there and don't feel compelled by the current situation particularly if they try to require a fee or a purchase to retro them.  As it is, the MF per point that I estimate will be above what DC points cost, so I'll be unlikely to exchange them in Abound unless there is something else that makes it desirable.


----------



## jabberwocky

I think we need to be careful in interpreting the total enrolled/non-enrolled points totals for OBL levels coming from the profile sheets.

Ours shows a value of zero for both points to calculate OBL and total non-enrolled points. But that is from the Vistana side of sales. The Marriott ones seem to be a bit different.

Is it possible they just don’t have the Vistana side activated to show points totals properly yet?


----------



## Red elephant

bice01 said:


> From my owners update 2 weeks ago:
> 
> among the various issues that are delaying the finalization of Abound, is WSJ.  There, very large portions of the (mandatory) ownership is already in resale hands and the proposed Abound value to these owners isn't compelling, in light the high maintenance fee/cash rental market dynamics there.
> 
> My impression is that they want WSJ inventory in Abound, for current members and for future sales, but they see that they are creating an uncompelling situation.


Uncompelling indeed!!! Renting is better.


----------



## Eric B

Email from Vistana just came in:


YOUR VACATION LIFE KEEPS GETTING BETTERThe Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program. Through your membership in the VSN®, you will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*

Because you’re a member in the VSN, you will be able to elect to receive Club Points in Abound even though your Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) was not purchased from the Developer, meaning that you will be able to access Abound without an additional purchase. Also, we anticipate you’ll have the future option to convert your VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy® points. While we are excited to enhance your ownership with these new usage options, please know that future purchases from an unauthorized reseller will not be eligible to elect to receive Club Points or convert to Marriott Bonvoy points.


----------



## CPNY

Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!!
> View attachment 63902



One thought I have is that this would set the limitation date at August 31st rather than August 9th for mandatory resale purchases being in Abound, which should work out great for you....

Edited to add:  Neener neener, I beat you to posting it!!!


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> One thought I have is that this would set the limitation date at August 31st rather than August 9th for mandatory resale purchases being in Abound, which should work out great for you....


That would be fantastic but I doubt it.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> That would be fantastic but I doubt it.



The time stamp on the postings shows I clearly beat you by a minute....


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> The time stamp on the postings shows I clearly beat you by a minute....


HA I was busy taking a screen shot and cropping the picture I didnt even see you post it. Don’t worry, there will be 7 more posts to come when these get buried haha


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


Marriott employees are monitoring this board? It seems they know our concerns here..


----------



## timsi

This is good news. 

The email though contains a very misleading statement since they take inventory that the exchangers can book during our Home Resort Reservation Period priority:

"WHAT STAYS THE SAME

You can continue to vacation your way, all using your VSN membership.
Your same Home Resort Reservation Period priority"


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> HA I was busy taking a screen shot and cropping the picture I didnt even see you post it. Don’t worry, there will be 7 more posts to come when these get buried haha



You New Yorkers preening while the rural folks just get it done….


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> You New Yorkers preening while the rural folks just get it done….


We are a bit much I agree haha


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Marriott employees are monitoring this board? It seems they know our concerns here..


I think it’s because Marriott wants all of the mandatory inventory in abound, think of all of the WSJ, WKORN OF, WKV, HRA resale units they would be missing out on


----------



## jabberwocky

This is great news!  Glad to see my guesses (and my sales guys information) are partially coming to be realized.

Now we will see if the mandatory resales will count for status. My guess is they will given that they are allowing conversion to Bonvoy points as well. I don’t think the existing MVC system excludes anything with points from counting towards status and I think it’s clear that our mandatory resale points aren’t being treated as second class citizens.


----------



## jabberwocky

The question is does @CPNY get extra style points?  It’s definitely prettier!


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> This is great news!  Glad to see my guesses (and my sales guys information) are partially coming to be realized.
> 
> Now we will see if the mandatory resales will count for status. My guess is they will given that they are allowing conversion to Bonvoy points as well. I don’t think the existing MVC system excludes anything with points from counting towards status and I think it’s clear that our mandatory resale points aren’t being treated as second class citizens.


I think we will be getting status


----------



## Jayco29D

Eric B said:


> Well, I've got several mandatory resale weeks there and don't feel compelled by the current situation particularly if they try to require a fee or a purchase to retro them.  As it is, the MF per point that I estimate will be above what DC points cost, so I'll be unlikely to exchange them in Abound unless there is something else that makes it desirable.



So what are good options for WSJ if Abound and SOs are not cost effective and rental rates are not super enticing? I guess own to use?


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


No purchase required but they didn't say for free   Could still stick an enrollment fee on every ownership that enrolls. Time will tell.


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> The question is does @CPNY get extra style points?  It’s definitely prettier!



I never claimed to be pretty; just effective….


----------



## robertk2012

Guess some will be eating some crow…


----------



## robertk2012

Quit pulling stuff out of your @$$.  


kozykritter said:


> No purchase required but they didn't say for free   Could still stick an enrollment fee on every ownership that enrolls. Time will tell.


----------



## Eric B

Jayco29D said:


> So what are good options for WSJ if Abound and SOs are not cost effective and rental rates are not super enticing? I guess own to use?



Renting stays I don’t use covers more than my costs and they count towards owner benefit level.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I think it’s because Marriott wants all of the mandatory inventory in abound, think of all of the WSJ, WKORN OF, WKV, HRA resale units they would be missing out on


I should have purchased another WKORVN OF. I’m so regretted that I waited.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


But it doesn't answer the question about Owner Benefit Levels? Arggg. I see getting Bonvoy status mentioned, but even the Owner level gets Gold Bonvoy.


----------



## jabberwocky

Jayco29D said:


> So what are good options for WSJ if Abound and SOs are not cost effective and rental rates are not super enticing? I guess own to use?


Owning to use should always be the top criterion in my book. Trying to be a part-time landlord or arbitrage the points system may work for awhile, but systems and rules can always change (as we are seeing in multiple systems). Owning something you can go and be happy with is always the best in my opinion.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> But it doesn't answer the question about Owner Benefit Levels? Arggg. I see getting Bonvoy status mentioned, but even the Owner level gets Gold Bonvoy.



I would just go by what the Abound Exchange Procedures say wrt how to determine OBL.  There aren’t any exclusions there.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> But it doesn't answer the question about Owner Benefit Levels? Arggg. I see getting Bonvoy status mentioned, but even the Owner level gets Gold Bonvoy.


I think we are!


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> No purchase required but they didn't say for free   Could still stick an enrollment fee on every ownership that enrolls. Time will tell.


Stop giving them ideas!


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I think it’s because Marriott wants all of the mandatory inventory in abound, think of all of the WSJ, WKORN OF, WKV, HRA resale units they would be missing out on


If they wanted WSJ and WKV in abound they would have given those resorts more club points. HRA is still pending.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> No purchase required but they didn't say for free   Could still stick an enrollment fee on every ownership that enrolls. Time will tell.


I don’t think they would send that email and say “without additional purchase” then charge a fee right after. I know this is Marriott we are talking about but I highly doubt they would be that idiotic


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> Owning to use should always be the top criterion in my book. Trying to be a part-time landlord or arbitrage the points system may work for awhile, but systems and rules can always change (as we are seeing in multiple systems). Owning something you can go and be happy with is always the best in my opinion.



Completely  agree.  I’ve got a couple fixed week fixed units consecutively in the same unit for my birthday (platinum plus) and a week 51.  Always happy to just use them, though it will be easier in a few years when I retire.


----------



## Jayco29D

Has everyone gotten the email? I still haven’t. Glad to hear the good news.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


It says future option to convert.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> If they wanted WSJ and WKV in abound they would have given those resorts more club points. HRA is still pending.


True but most owners get an additional 3 months to convert to Abound past SO banking deadline. People will elect for abound from those resorts regardless of the low point value.


----------



## TravelTime

Great news today! Ends the some or most of the mysteries. There is nothing else I want to know.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> It says future option to convert.


Correct, and it’s anticipated so I’m going to keep the hope up that I’ll be getting platinum bonvoy from Abound via resales


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> True but most owners get an additional 3 months to convert to Abound past SO banking deadline. People will elect for abound from those resorts regardless of the low point value.


I don’t think it works that way — Abound conversion is prior to the use year and banking is in the use year.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Great news today! Ends the some or most of the mysteries. There is nothing else I want to know.


I just need to know post 8/9 resale Dues structure that’s all I cared about.


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> I don’t think it works that way — Abound conversion is prior to the use year and banking is in the use year.


So you convert 2024 SO by Sept 30th of 2023? That would make more sense, that would give the abound exchange enough time for a 12 mo reservation. Ok I got the dates wrong then


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> But it doesn't answer the question about Owner Benefit Levels? Arggg. I see getting Bonvoy status mentioned, but even the Owner level gets Gold Bonvoy.


Welcome to the Executive level @dioxide45 !  Now your sales presentations will be about how you only need 2350 points to get to Presidential  and Titanium for life.


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> I disagree, since the VSN owners weren't part of the program in 2010. So, this is the first chance they have, and since they set a cut-off date for MVC weeks owners it makes sense to do the same for VSN.



I was just paying devil’s advocate actually. However, I really do not understand your explantation. I do not understand this comment since Marriott did not own Vistana in 2010. Why would it matter what they did in 2010 for Marriott owners with regard to Vistana owners? Why would Vistana owners need the same chance as pre-2010 owners and for free? The news is great today of course and I am overjoyed with the free gift. Frankly, I think it could have gone either way and still been okay in terms of justifying why it makes sense.


----------



## dsmrp

I haven't gotten the email yet. Not sure if it was just targeted to mandatory owners or if west coast is just slower at getting mass messaging. I don't own any mandatory or non-retroed voluntary units.
Did anyone with just voluntary units get the email?


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> I just need to know post 8/9 resale Dues structure that’s all I cared about.


My guess is it will just be one fee. They will probably want all new VSN owners to pay the higher fee. Only legacy owners will likely have the opportunity to opt out. It’s just too messy otherwise.


----------



## kozykritter

robertk2012 said:


> Quit pulling stuff out of your @$$.
> [
> 
> 
> robertk2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quit pulling stuff out of your @$$.
> 
> 
> 
> Use of the ignore feature is free here on TUG if you don't like what is being said. I won't be changing my perspective to humor you or anyone else.
Click to expand...


----------



## robertk2012

They already got their suckers with their “insider” information and sleazy sales offices.  



CPNY said:


> I don’t think they would send that email and say without additional purchase then charge a fee. I know this is Marriott we are talking about but I highly doubt they would be that idiotic


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Welcome to the Executive level @dioxide45 !  Now your sales presentations will be about how you only need 2350 points to get to Presidential  and Titanium for life.


I will wait and see before getting too excited. However, as you note, they will now try to get us to buy up to Presidential. Every time you go you need something more! The Titanium for life (as long as I own) doesn't exicte me much as I still need to spend the 75 nights to get the best benefit with is the free night certificate with the Choice Benefit.


----------



## kyaustin

Oh thank god, all the doomsday folks are happier now.


----------



## jabberwocky

Wow. We better watch out before a mod comes in here and sees all this chit-chat and shuts the party down.


----------



## robertk2012

Well it’s clear you were very wrong.  @kozykritter


----------



## robertk2012

Might replace it with some “insider” information.  


jabberwocky said:


> Wow. We better watch out before a mod comes in here and sees all this chit-chat and shuts the party down.


----------



## robertk2012

You won’t get to participate.  


dsmrp said:


> I haven't gotten the email yet. Not sure if it was just targeted to mandatory owners or if west coast is just slower at getting mass messaging. I don't own any mandatory or non-retroed voluntary units.
> Did anyone with just voluntary units get the email?


----------



## capjak

Glad that they are clarifying maybe all the questions coming in forced a clarification.   I sent a email asking the question a few days ago.  I own 2 mandatory resorts purchased resale and I also got the same email notice .


----------



## robertk2012

This was sent to mandatory resale owners.  





capjak said:


> Glad that they are clarifying maybe all the questions coming in forced a clarification.   I sent a email asking the question a few days ago.  I own 2 mandatory resorts and I also got the same email notice .


----------



## dsmrp

robertk2012 said:


> You won’t get to participate.


No, I have direct buy and retro'd units. I can participate in Abound. I was just wondering if the messaging was targeted towards mandatory only. Or if voluntary owners got it too, then the 8/9 cutoff date really does apply.


----------



## CPNY

kyaustin said:


> Oh thank god, all the doomsday folks are happier now.


Nah….We still don’t trust Marriott to play games with the best inventory to satisfy the “anticipated demand” of the Abound exchange. But, yeah if we are truly in without fees as it seems, get owner benefit status, and bonvoy status, then yes, some of us made out pretty well.

Again, it most likely wasn’t due the graciousness of Marriott as much as it was having ownerships that came with mandatory benefits. In the end it was a trade off. Some elite Vistana owners lost out on some really great perks and the rest of us lost two years of banking SO which was a huge loss. You win some you lose some I guess.


----------



## jabberwocky

I do think there should be a special place in h3ll for the salespeople who told mandatory resale owners they would have to retro their mandatory resales to participate in Abound. There were some honest guys out there and I was fortunate to run into them.  

I feel bad for those owners - if I had more mandatory resales in my portfolio I might have taken a bite too.


----------



## pchung6

robertk2012 said:


> Well it’s clear you were very wrong.  @kozykritter


He might’ve already blocked me and told few others to block me few days ago. I probably missed something there.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> Correct, and it’s anticipated so I’m going to keep the hope up that I’ll be getting platinum bonvoy from Abound via resales


I don’t like Marriott’s  vagueness it’s disconcerting . Owning a mandatory resale I can play in abound and that’s all I have gotten so far. Like you said it maybe because they want those resorts in it . Or they had no choice because of VSN membership.
owner level and bonvoy status is not clear.


----------



## pchung6

Just got the email. Why my email is different than @CPNY received?


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> I don’t like Marriott’s  vagueness it’s disconcerting . Owning a mandatory resale I can play in abound and that’s all I have gotten so far. Like you said it maybe because they want those resorts in it . Or they had no choice because of VSN membership.
> owner level and bonvoy status is not clear.


I feel like owner level is much clearer than bonvoy status. It’s mentioned in the FAQ and this email


----------



## dsmrp

Including mandatories in Abound means Marriott is strategizing to make VSN a shell of its current self, and get majority playing in Abound. And upselling more costly Abound points because redemption values, especially for Maui, are so high.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Just got the email. Why my email is different than @CPNY received?
> View attachment 63905


I received that email as well right after the first email


----------



## jabberwocky

pchung6 said:


> Just got the email. Why my email is different than @CPNY received?
> View attachment 63905


Do you have voluntary resales?


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> I haven't gotten the email yet. Not sure if it was just targeted to mandatory owners or if west coast is just slower at getting mass messaging. I don't own any mandatory or non-retroed voluntary units.
> Did anyone with just voluntary units get the email?


I think it was targeted.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> I do think there should be a special place in h3ll for the salespeople who told mandatory resale owners they would have to retro their mandatory resales to participate in Abound. There were some honest guys out there and I was fortunate to run into them.
> 
> I feel bad for those owners - if I had more mandatory resales in my portfolio I might have taken a bite too.


I now have 5 mandatory resales with a 6th on the way. I have never taken the bait. I got hooked, gutted, filleted, and grilled with my first developer purchase. Never ever ever ever again…..unless it’s a killer deal haha


----------



## pchung6

jabberwocky said:


> Do you have voluntary resales?


Yes, I have SBP resale. I have the other 4 mandatory resales.


----------



## VacationForever

I just don't want WKV owners to elect Abound points because I use SOs to get to WKV. LOL


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> I haven't gotten the email yet. Not sure if it was just targeted to mandatory owners or if west coast is just slower at getting mass messaging. I don't own any mandatory or non-retroed voluntary units.
> Did anyone with just voluntary units get the email?


Clearly based on all the written information, non-retroed VOIs won't be able to participate. The gateway to Abound is through VSN.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> I just don't want WKV owners to elect Abound points because I use SOs to get to WKV. LOL


I feel the same about WSJ and HRA….. other than those two resort I don’t care how many WKORN owners convert lol.


----------



## jabberwocky

pchung6 said:


> Yes, I have SBP resale. I have the other 4 mandatory resales.


I think you’ve gotten it because of that unit. They are effectively going to try to sell you on joining VSN via a retro so that unit can be part of Abound.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Clearly based on all the written information, non-retroed VOIs won't be able to participate. The gateway to Abound is through VSN.


Anyone can participate if they pay enough


----------



## Red elephant

robertk2012 said:


> This was sent to mandatory resale owners.


Not true . I got it and don’t own mandatory resales.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I posted on other thread.

Clearly our resale VSN Mandatory resorts (WKORV, WKV) are eligible for Abound. 

My question to the experts —
At this point when considering MFs, which VSN VOIs or FlexOptions have the best value in Abound.
WKORV OFC?
3Bd WSJ-VGV?

Not our WKORV OF Deluxe because of the disproportionate MFs compared to Premium villas.

Sorry if not clear. What are the ones worth owning if one wanted to use Abound?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> I was just paying devil’s advocate actually. However, I really do not understand your explantation. I do not understand this comment since Marriott did not own Vistana in 2010. Why would it matter what they did in 2010 for Marriott owners with regard to Vistana owners? Why would Vistana owners need the same chance as pre-2010 owners and for free? The news is great today of course and I am overjoyed with the free gift. Frankly, I think it could have gone either way and still been okay in terms of justifying why it makes sense.



My point was every time Marriott has brought a new group of owners into the Destination Club/Abound they have offered an enrollment option for Developer and resale weeks to that new group up to a certain date - for the original DC launch it was for weeks owned before 6/2010; for the European resorts it was pre-6/2012 I believe someone else posted; and now for VSN Members it's 8/2022. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. It's what they do. The only pre-8/2022 weeks that seem to be left out this time are resale voluntary weeks, but they weren't VSN participants anyway, and since VSN Membership is apparently the pathway into Abound this time, they obviously have to re-qualify into VSN before they can be included.

Yes, it is apparently free this time whereas in 2010 there was a small fee, but I posted in another post a ways up in this thread my thoughts on why free enrollment probably makes sense this time, but didn't in 2010. The abridged version is - since VSN owners have an established points program, there is less incentive for them to join Abound than it was for MVC weeks owners to join the DC in 2010 (since MVC had no previous points program). Marriott probably wants to make it easier to join Abound, eliminating the barrier a fee would erect, in order to get more participation/use sooner. I suspect they feel the potential sales of Abound points to an automatically enrolled VSN base represents a more attractive revenue generator long-term than a one-time fee.


----------



## jabberwocky

DavidnRobin said:


> I posted on other thread.
> 
> Clearly our resale VSN Mandatory resorts (WKORV, WKV) are eligible for Abound.
> 
> My question to the experts —
> At this point when considering MFs, which VSN VOIs or FlexOptions have the best value in Abound.
> WKORV OFC?
> 3Bd WSJ-VGV?
> 
> Not our WKORV OF Deluxe because of the disproportionate MFs compared to Premium villas.
> 
> Sorry if not clear. What are the ones worth owning if one wanted to use Abound?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think this almost deserves its own thread. It’s going to be an important topic and may get lost here.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I feel like owner level is much clearer than bonvoy status. It’s mentioned in the FAQ and this email View attachment 63906





This is still off. Why is Owner benefit level not capitalized as "Owner Benefit Level". This still causes confusion because Marriott has "Owner Benefit Levels", one of which is the "Owner" benefit level. I know I might be making this more confusing than it actually is, but "Owner Benefit Level" can be defined one way and "Owner benefit level" can be defined a different way.


----------



## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> I just don't want WKV owners to elect Abound points because I use SOs to get to WKV. LOL



As a WKV PLAT owner - the rental value and ability to use VSN far outweigh the value in Abound.

I guess if one wanted to specifically go to a Abound location


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I feel like owner level is much clearer than bonvoy status. It’s mentioned in the FAQ and this email View attachment 63906


That is still not clear that they will count the resales or your combined Vistana/ Marriott for those who own both or those that are being grandfathered.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I do think there should be a special place in h3ll for the salespeople who told mandatory resale owners they would have to retro their mandatory resales to participate in Abound. There were some honest guys out there and I was fortunate to run into them.
> 
> I feel bad for those owners - if I had more mandatory resales in my portfolio I might have taken a bite too.



I was a sucker because I was so close to doing a retro. So glad they would not put my Vistana unit into the contract. I guess Marriott would not put it in or I could have gone back to them later on, maybe to no avail but just count my lucky stars I did not continue with the retro.


----------



## DavidnRobin

jabberwocky said:


> I think this almost deserves its own thread. It’s going to be an important topic and may get lost here.



And maybe we can get Nico to updates the VSN MF thread.

This thread is likely best put forth by @dioxide45 since I believe they started a list of Abound points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> My point was every time Marriott has brought a new group of owners into the Destination Club/Abound they have offered an enrollment option for Developer and resale weeks to that new group up to a certain date - for the original DC launch it was for weeks owned before 6/2010; for the European resorts it was pre-6/2012 I believe someone else posted; and now for VSN Members it's 8/2022. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. It's what they do. The only pre-8/2022 weeks that seem to be left out this time are resale voluntary weeks, but they weren't VSN participants anyway, and since VSN Membership is apparently the pathway into Abound this time, they obviously have to re-qualify into VSN before they can be included.
> 
> Yes, it is apparently free this time whereas in 2010 there was a small fee, but I posted in another post a ways up in this thread my thoughts on why free enrollment probably makes sense this time, but didn't in 2010. The abridged version is - since VSN owners have an established points program, there is less incentive for them to join Abound than it was for MVC weeks owners to join the DC in 2010 (since MVC had no previous points program). Marriott probably wants to make it easier to join Abound, eliminating the barrier a fee would erect, in order to get more participation/use sooner. I suspect they feel the potential sales of Abound points to an automatically enrolled VSN base represents a more attractive revenue generator long-term than a one-time fee.



Thanks Jim. Makes sense now!


----------



## MICROZE

kozykritter said:


> I do have two suggested modifications...take 'em, don't take 'em...it's your summary. They have definitely stated that they are replacing VSN elite levels with Abound recognition levels in the VSN. That's why they mapped them to Abound levels. The attached chart shows how those levels would operate in the VSN with a second chart showing how they would operate in Abound. If they were keeping the existing VSN elite levels they would show in the VSN section of the chart, I feel.
> 
> The other is for dual owners in bullet #2, the FAQs have stated that their ownership in VSN and MVC would be combined to determine their Abound level and that level would apply across both programs with only one Club Dues fee charged (at whatever combined level).


Thanks for highlighting the intricacies.

*VSN/Abound-Levels*: You are right. Post rollout all owners will be identified only by the new Abound-Levels [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans]. 
All VSN-Members with 3*/4*/5*-Elite will inherit their equivalent Abound-Status based on the Mapping. VSN-Elite-Levels will be history.

*Dual-Ownership*: This is something that is ambiguous. Received clarification this week [at a Waikoloa presentation] which also aligns with what I have been told for the last 2 years. At rollout there will be *NO* Combined-Status [could change in the future in a 2nd Phase of integration]. Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Accounts [VSN + Abound] with a single Club-Dues if enrolled. Each of the accounts will have Abound-Status based on #-Abound-Points. This is one of the criteria that I have less confidence in how it will transpire.


----------



## TravelTime

Is this like New Year’s Eve and we can open the champagne bottles and have a few kisses at midnight. Then tomorrow the real year starts and we can go back to fighting. LOL


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> I think we need to be careful in interpreting the total enrolled/non-enrolled points totals for OBL levels coming from the profile sheets.
> 
> Ours shows a value of zero for both points to calculate OBL and total non-enrolled points. But that is from the Vistana side of sales. The Marriott ones seem to be a bit different.
> 
> Is it possible they just don’t have the Vistana side activated to show points totals properly yet?


You are right.

The sheets only show MVCI inventory that counts toward OBL & Enrolled.
The Vistana units [Direct-Purchase + Mandatory-Resales] will show up once the rollout is complete.
All Mandatory [Direct or Resales] will be enrolled [just like they participate in VSN today]. 
If the Mandatory-Resales are retroed they will count toward OBL. If NOT retroe'd, they will not count toward OBL [not impact Abound-Status] and not impact Bonvoy-Status.


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> Thanks for highlighting the intricacies.
> 
> *VSN/Abound-Levels*: You are right. Post rollout all owners will be identified only by the new Abound-Levels [Owner/Select/Executive/Presidential/Chairmans].
> All VSN-Members with 3*/4*/5*-Elite will inherit their equivalent Abound-Status based on the Mapping. VSN-Elite-Levels will be history.
> 
> *Dual-Ownership*: This is something that is ambiguous. Received clarification this week [at a Waikoloa presentation] which also aligns with what I have been told for the last 2 years. At rollout there will be *NO* Combined-Status [could change in the future in a 2nd Phase of integration]. Dual-Owners will continue to have 2 x Accounts [VSN + Abound] with a single Club-Dues if enrolled. Each of the accounts will have Abound-Status based on #-Abound-Points. This is one of the criteria that I have less confidence in how it will transpire.


I think you may have received some inaccurate information. Here is what the Marriott Abound FAQ says about dual ownership in MVC and VSN.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> You are right.
> 
> The sheets only show MVCI inventory that counts toward OBL & Enrolled.
> The Vistana units [Direct-Purchase + Mandatory-Resales] will show up once the rollout is complete.
> All Mandatory [Direct or Resales] will be enrolled [just like they participate in VSN today].
> If the Mandatory-Resales are retroed they will count toward OBL. If NOT retroe'd, they will not count toward OBL [not impact Abound-Status] and not impact Bonvoy-Status.


Are you sure they won’t count towards OBL if they haven’t been retroed?  Based on what I’m seeing in the email I’m guessing they will be included.


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


You are correct.

Mandatory resale units are included [same as VSN] and will have *access to* Abound without additional purchase. *"Access"* is not the same as *"Status"*. What about Abound-Status?

*"Access"* This is the same privilege Mandatory resale contracts enjoy today in VSN [Not-Status].
Also note the "*anticipate* you'll have the *future option* to convert to Marriott Bonvoy". Why not state up front that you get Bonvoy-Status unless there is a hidden retro required?


----------



## teddyo333

Eric B said:


> One thought I have is that this would set the limitation date at August 31st rather than August 9th for mandatory resale purchases being in Abound, which should work out great for you....
> 
> Edited to add:  Neener neener, I beat you to posting it!!!



I'm hoping that they include the WKV premium unit that I purchase before 8/9. The deed was recorded on  7/13 and sent to the title department on 7/20 (it is still pending addition to my VSN account). I don't think it would be fair to penalize the owner because the title department is too busy to add the unit in a timely manner.


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> You are correct.
> 
> Mandatory resale units are included [same as VSN] and will have *access to* Abound without additional purchase. What about Abound-Status?
> Also note the "*anticipate* you'll have the *future option* to convert to Marriott Bonvoy". Why not state up front that you get Bonvoy-Status unless there is a hidden retro required?


Even the lowest Owner Benefit Level gets Bonvoy Gold. So even if mandatory somehow still qualifies for the "Owner" benefit level, they should still get Gold Bongoy.


----------



## DavidnRobin

If we were more inclined to Travel more - this combined system (Abound with status) using resale strategies could be great for value traveling. Those that have utilized the resale/retro side of VSE and MWC over the years are sitting pretty.
Congrats!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> You are correct.
> 
> Mandatory resale units are included [same as VSN] and will have *access to* Abound without additional purchase. What about Abound-Status?
> Also note the "*anticipate* you'll have the *future option* to convert to Marriott Bonvoy". Why not state up front that you get Bonvoy-Status unless there is a hidden retro required?


I’m pretty sure MVC bases their status in your total points in the program. You are either in or out is my understanding. This is unlike some other systems which push status to add value over resale purchases.

For the Bonvoy point conversion language : Probably used that language to avoid people calling right now demanding to convert to Bonvoy. If the conversion starts for the 2023 year I can see why they would want to say this is a future option.


----------



## JIMinNC

MICROZE said:


> Also note the "*anticipate* you'll have the *future option* to convert to Marriott Bonvoy". Why not state up front that you get Bonvoy-Status unless there is a hidden retro required?


Could the answer be that the Bonvoy status requires some kind of work - either legal or IT or both - at Marriott International? Maybe software changes at the Bonvoy system or adjustments to the legal docs with regard to Bonvoy between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International.


----------



## DavidnRobin

teddyo333 said:


> I'm hoping that they include the WKV premium unit that I purchase before 8/9. The deed was recorded on 7/13 and sent to the title department on 7/20 (it is still pending addition to my VSN account). I don't think it would be fair to penalize the owner because the title department is to busy to add the unit in a timely manner.



If not - I would contact the Marriott Advocacy Dept and concisely explain - I am sure they would work it out as people in this position have the leverage that this delay in Title is due to them.


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## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> View attachment 63907
> This is still off. Why is Owner benefit level not capitalized as "Owner Benefit Level". This still causes confusion because Marriott has "Owner Benefit Levels", one of which is the "Owner" benefit level. I know I might be making this more confusing than it actually is, but "Owner Benefit Level" can be defined one way and "Owner benefit level" can be defined a different way.



Bad grammar?


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Bad grammar?


Nah - they just sent the regular copy editors to help the IT department with their coding.


----------



## MICROZE

robertk2012 said:


> Guess some will be eating some crow…


We will see who will eat crow on the day of the "Formal Rollout".
Come back and compare notes that I posted in Post-#916 on the day of the rollout.

This is Marriott [100's of attorney's / lawyers with years of corp legal practice]. Note the terms "anticipate", "option".


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> *My point was every time Marriott has brought a new group of owners into the Destination Club/Abound they have offered an enrollment option for Developer and resale weeks to that new group up to a certain date* - for the original DC launch it was for weeks owned before 6/2010; for the European resorts it was pre-6/2012 I believe someone else posted; and now for VSN Members it's 8/2022. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. It's what they do. The only pre-8/2022 weeks that seem to be left out this time are resale voluntary weeks, but they weren't VSN participants anyway, and since VSN Membership is apparently the pathway into Abound this time, they obviously have to re-qualify into VSN before they can be included.
> 
> Yes, it is apparently free this time whereas in 2010 there was a small fee, but I posted in another post a ways up in this thread my thoughts on why free enrollment probably makes sense this time, but didn't in 2010. The abridged version is - since VSN owners have an established points program, there is less incentive for them to join Abound than it was for MVC weeks owners to join the DC in 2010 (since MVC had no previous points program). Marriott probably wants to make it easier to join Abound, eliminating the barrier a fee would erect, in order to get more participation/use sooner. I suspect they feel the potential sales of Abound points to an automatically enrolled VSN base represents a more attractive revenue generator long-term than a one-time fee.


But this is not really what is happening now. Yes, they included the mandatory resorts, but it is more because they had to, not because of the reasons you mentioned; the resale voluntary VOIs got nothing, at least a this point. If they had any intention with the voluntary resorts, even for a small fee, why would they not include the information at the same time with this communication?


----------



## robertk2012

Why so angry?  Did you get suckered into making a purchase to participate?  Or maybe you are the insider?

They “anticipate” because they still have to implement it and who knows how long that will take.



MICROZE said:


> We will see who will eat crow on the day of the "Formal Rollout".
> Come back and compare notes that I posted in Post-#916 on the day of the rollout.
> 
> This is Marriott [100's of attorney's / lawyers with years of corp legal practice]. Note the terms "anticipate", "option".


----------



## CPNY

robertk2012 said:


> Why do angry?  Did you get suckered into making a purchase to participate?  Or maybe you are the insider?


Doesn’t sound angry at all. I think it’s just an acknowledgment of differing opinions on this thread and we will soon find out who was right, wrong, or close.
.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Bad grammar?


It is possible, but they have "Owner benefit level" in two places. When they say Owner benefit level, that would indicate we will have the wonderful new "Owner" benefit level.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> I’m pretty sure MVC bases their status in your total points in the program. You are either in or out is my understanding. This is unlike some other systems which push status to add value over resale purchases.
> 
> For the Bonvoy point conversion language : Probably used that language to avoid people calling right now demanding to convert to Bonvoy. If the conversion starts for the 2023 year I can see why they would want to say this is a future option.


Updated my post to reflect the following.
How do Mandatory-Resales work within VSN today?
They can "Access" VSN-Inventory with no impact on VSN-Elite [3*/4*/5*-Elite] and no ability to qualify for Bonvoy-Status. This can change if I retro my Mandatory-Resales within VSN.

Extrapolating further.
All Mandatory-Resales will have "Access" to all Abound-Inventory. This does not translate to "Abound-Status" or "Bonvoy-Status".
As a VSN Mandatory-Resale owner I lose nothing and enjoy the same benefits in Abound as I always did within VSN.
This is exactly, how I believe it will be going forward.

It is human nature [I do it all the time] to believe [and see] what I want [or wish] to be true and ignore the rest.
I too wish that I come out better than before, however, experience has taught me that there is "no such thing as a free lunch".


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Doesn’t sound angry at all. I think it’s just an acknowledgment of differing opinions on this thread and we will soon find out who was right, wrong, or close.
> .View attachment 63910



I do not think home week reservations will ever be an issue. I hope not because I do plan to use my home week every now and then. However, I do think that the fears about what will happen to the VSN will come true eventually. It will take years but I think the fear is real.


----------



## jabberwocky

robertk2012 said:


> Why so angry?  Did you get suckered into making a purchase to participate?  Or maybe you are the insider?
> 
> They “anticipate” because they still have to implement it and who knows how long that will take.


I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.  

I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.
> 
> I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.



If someone did a retro to enroll their Vistana week, could they go back to Marriott and ask for some type of compensation and negotiate directly with Marriott? I would start with that sales office, then move up the chain. If he actually bought points or SOs and the week happened to get retro-ed, Marriott could argue that he bought the points/SOs and technically that would be correct. If he just paid to enroll it and got nothing in exchange, then he has a pretty clear case for a refund. I have requested refunds from mexican timeshares several months after the rescission period passed and I have eventually gotten it. So I would think dealing with Marriott would be easier than the large timeshare companies in Mexico. They never even made me return or pay back any free weeks or other freebies.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.
> 
> I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.


Why does anyone think I am angry?

All I am saying is, we can compare notes on rollout-day and see what transpires based on my prediction in Post-#916.


----------



## robertk2012

Maybe the mod who helped push that narrative with “insider” information owes him and others an apology.  





jabberwocky said:


> I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.
> 
> I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I do not think home week reservations will ever be an issue. I hope not because I do plan to use my home week every now and then. However, I do think that the fears about what will happen to the VSN will come true eventually. It will take years but I think the fear is real.


See.. so you can see the fear. It will take a while but it’s def real.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> It is human nature [I do it all the time] to believe [and see] what I want [or wish] to be true and ignore the rest.
> I too wish that I come out better than before, however, experience has taught me that there is "no such thing as a free lunch".


What you’ve said here is so true. We tend to ignore contrary opinions, and even the best of us do it on a regular basis.

Overall you’ve done really well with your portfolio. I’m always amazed at your spreadsheets and the analysis you do!


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> But this is not really what is happening now. Yes, they included the mandatory resorts, but it is more because they had to, not because of the reasons you mentioned; the resale voluntary VOIs got nothing, at least a this point. If they had any intention with the voluntary resorts, even for a small fee, why would they not include the information at the same time with this communication?



As I said in the last sentence of the first paragraph, the resale voluntaries are moot right now. They aren't participants in VSN today, but VSN is the mechanism by which the other VSN weeks are participating via the Master Affiliation Agreement between Abound and VSN. Unlike MVC owners, who must each execute a separate enrollment agreement to enroll a week, all VSN Members are covered by that Master Agreement, but that legally excludes voluntary resales that are not in VSN. 

Since voluntary resales are not in VSN, to play in Abound, they have to requalify into VSN first. That's why they are being treated differently. Based on what I've read here, VSN qualification for voluntary resale weeks has always meant you have to make a purchase of some kind. My expectation would be that will still be the case, so that's being left up to Sales to handle during Owner Updates.


----------



## jabberwocky

robertk2012 said:


> Maybe the mod who helped push that narrative with “insider” information owes him and others an apology.


That would be the honorable thing to do. But I’m not holding my breath.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Why does anyone think I am angry?
> 
> All I am saying is, we can compare notes on rollout-day and see what transpires based on my prediction in Post-#916.


I don’t think you are…. I get what you’re saying. We will see when the program is fully released with concrete answers to all of our questions.

After the years of speculation, we are finally here. There will be those who were right and those who were wrong and then there are those of us who knew the exact details for 2 years but weren’t at liberty to say. So we threw out random speculation posts to throw you all off the trail.

I guess it’s time that I should confess and let you all in on the secret….Hi, Im Brian Miller, it’s nice to meet all of you. Hope you like the new Abound by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. We have been working tirelessly since the ACQUISITION of Interval Leisure Group. We hope you enjoy more options, more resorts, and exciting new ways to use your current ownership. Rest assured, nothing will change and you can still use your ownership the same way you do today. Except for you Vistana elite members, y’all lost a bunch of perks. BUT BUT BUT y’all get free internal interval exchanges so yay for that. Anywho, take care! Time for me to bon voyage outta here….see what I did there??


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> Why does anyone think I am angry?
> 
> All I am saying is, we can compare notes on rollout-day and see what transpires based on my prediction in Post-#916.


Sorry. It just came across that way.  No offense intended.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> See.. so you can see the fear. It will take a while but it’s def real.



I never said the fear of VSN being dismantled is not real. I just do not like VSN/SOs. That is the difference in what I said before. I also tried to share some positives about Abound since it is not all negative.


----------



## dsmrp

I do feel bad for mandatory owners who bought flex to retro their units.  At least they will probably get a VSN elite level and then a Marriott elevated OBL status.
I really hope mandatory owners who are getting Abound access for free, won't get any elevated OBL status from their mandatory units.  Still the 'Owner' level can still reserve 7+ days at 12 months; only partial weeks at 10 months.  Maybe Marriott will introduce another level and/or revise the levels after the dust settles.


----------



## DavidnRobin

MICROZE said:


> Why does anyone think I am angry?
> 
> All I am saying is, we can compare notes on rollout-day and see what transpires based on my prediction in Post-#916.



While I will unlikely ever use Abound - clearly our resale Mandatory VSN (WKORV WKV) can be used in Abound at roll-out - along with the 1000s of others here. — without having to do anything except owning them pre-Aug. 
It may impact VSN - maybe.
But we will always have WKORV OFD and WKV inventory- too many will use, rent, or SO exchange (WKV).

And yes - your post seemed dour… but I don’t know you


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## TravelTime

So next question is what will happen to resale prices for mandatory weeks? Which ones will see a decline in value and which ones will hold their value? I have my guesses but I will stay quiet on this one!


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I never said the fear of VSN being dismantled is not real. I just do not like VSN/SOs. That is the difference in what I said before. I also tried to share some positives about Abound since it is not all negative.


It’s negative for all of those who were lied to and duped into buying more VOI’s to retro a resale in order to be part of the integrated program


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> It’s negative for all of those who were lied to and duped into buying more VOI’s to retro a resale in order to be part of the integrated program



I totally agree. I almost fell for it too. I was one day away from my rescission period ending. Had I gone through with it, I would be fuming. That is why I am suggesting that people who were lied to and duped should go back to Marriott and ask for a refund.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> So next question is what will happen to resale prices for mandatory weeks? Which ones will see a decline in value and which ones will hold their value? I have my guesses but I will stay quiet on this one!


My prediction: I don’t see any going up, but several could drop if VSN availability goes down.

Maui: probably stays the same. You didn’t buy here for the SO and rental values are not the best return relative to some other resorts.

SVV will probably stay the same or drop. No real rental market, but you could essentially pick these up for next to nothing relative to other mandatories.

Carribean - I see no impact on these properties. Atlantis is not included (and can be picked up for free) and WSJ is too expensive to use in Abound relatively speaking.

WKV I think will drop over time. The rental market is strong there during spring training and a few other weeks, but it’s use as a trader in VSN will probably diminish over time. The value in Abound is not good.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> It’s negative for all of those who were lied to and duped into buying more VOI’s to retro a resale in order to be part of the integrated program



VSN owners are not alone in that. I don't know how much you read the Marriott Board, but ever since the VAC/ILG merger was first announced in 2018, MVC Sales people have been trying to sell DC Points by saying, "You'll have to own DC Trust Points to access Westin/Sheraton." Another line was that only those owners at or above Executive/Presidential/Chairman (whichever level was the next level up for the owner in front of them) will be able to book Westin/Sheraton, so you need to buy more points to upgrade. So, VSN owners are not the only ones that sales used false promises of the future to sell.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> VSN owners are not alone in that. I don't know how much you read the Marriott Board, but ever since the VAC/ILG merger was first announced in 2018, MVC Sales people have been trying to sell DC Points by saying, "You'll have to own DC Points to access Westin/Sheraton." Another line was that only those owners at or above Executive/Presidential/Chairman (whichever level was the next level up for the owner in front of them) will be able to book Westin/Sheraton, so you need to buy more points to upgrade. So, VSN owners re not the only ones that sales used the promise of the future to sell.


Well that’s no bueno. But they were sort of right. You do need to own DC points to access Sheraton/Westin. Another lie they told on the Marriott vistana side was that flex was the only way in. It’s amazing how they allow that type of sales tactic to occur


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.
> 
> I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> jabberwocky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think things are a bit raw with @MICROZE right now. Based on previous posts he did a retro with several mandatory properties. I would be angry too if I saw others getting in for “free”.
> 
> I will cut them some slack on this one. I just hope the anger can be directed at the right place - the salesperson who lied to them - rather than at TUG members.
> 
> 
> 
> i still think mandatory resales will not have FREE access to Bonvoy points or owner levels/elite status based on those allocated points. As that is not clear on these recent emails.
Click to expand...


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Well that’s no bueno. But they were sort of right. You do need to own DC points to access Sheraton/Westin. Another lie they told on the Marriott vistana side was that flex was the only way in. It’s amazing how they allow that type of sales tactic to occur



I've edited my post you replied to to note that the Sales line actually was "You'll have to own DC _*Trust*_ Points to access Westin/Sheraton." Supposedly enrolled/elected points weren't good enough.


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> VSN owners are not alone in that. I don't know how much you read the Marriott Board, but ever since the VAC/ILG merger was first announced in 2018, MVC Sales people have been trying to sell DC Points by saying, "You'll have to own DC Trust Points to access Westin/Sheraton." Another line was that only those owners at or above Executive/Presidential/Chairman (whichever level was the next level up for the owner in front of them) will be able to book Westin/Sheraton, so you need to buy more points to upgrade. So, VSN owners are not the only ones that sales used false promises of the future to sell.



What do they say on Investor calls about how Marriott salespeople lie to sell the product? Someone must ask. If not, the investors might not be aware or just do not care. It is not a good long term model to lie to your customers.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> As I said in the last sentence of the first paragraph, the resale voluntaries are moot right now. They aren't participants in VSN today, but VSN is the mechanism by which the other VSN weeks are participating via the Master Affiliation Agreement between Abound and VSN. Unlike MVC owners, who must each execute a separate enrollment agreement to enroll a week, all VSN Members are covered by that Master Agreement, but that legally excludes voluntary resales that are not in VSN.
> 
> Since voluntary resales are not in VSN, to play in Abound, they have to requalify into VSN first. That's why they are being treated differently. Based on what I've read here, VSN qualification for voluntary resale weeks has always meant you have to make a purchase of some kind. My expectation would be that will still be the case, so that's being left up to Sales to handle during Owner Updates.


I do not think you have a good point. Marriott bought Vistana the company, not VSN. Vistana owns all the resorts and the owners interact with Vistana for every aspect of their ownership. I agree with you why they included the VSN owners, because they had no choice. The biggest losers are  the voluntary resale VOIs that will see the right to enjoy exclusive booking during the home resort reservation period chopped but got nada in exchange. I would not be surprised if this did not end here.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I've edited my post you replied to to note that the Sales line actually was "You'll have to own DC _*Trust*_ Points to access Westin/Sheraton." Supposedly enrolled/elected points weren't good enough.


Oh wow, that’s a real intricate detail to lie about in order to make a sale.


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> I do not think you have a good point. Marriott bought Vistana the company, not VSN. Vistana owns all the resorts and the owners interact with Vistana for every aspect of their ownership. I agree with you why they included the VSN owners, because they had no choice. The biggest losers are  the voluntary resale VOIs that will see the right to enjoy exclusive booking during the home resort reservation period chopped but got nada in exchange. I would not be surprised if this did not end here.



To be more precise, Marriott bought ILG the company. Vistana was part of that, but so was Hyatt Vacation Club, II etc. But the important thing is the Master Affiliation Agreement is *only for the benefit of VSN Members. *That's why voluntary resale will likely have to be content with II trading or make a purchase to play in Abound.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> My prediction: I don’t see any going up, but several could drop if VSN availability goes down.
> 
> Maui: probably stays the same. You didn’t buy here for the SO and rental values are not the best return relative to some other resorts.
> 
> SVV will probably stay the same or drop. No real rental market, but you could essentially pick these up for next to nothing relative to other mandatories.
> 
> Carribean - I see no impact on these properties. Atlantis is not included (and can be picked up for free) and WSJ is too expensive to use in Abound relatively speaking.
> 
> WKV I think will drop over time. The rental market is strong there during spring training and a few other weeks, but it’s use as a trader in VSN will probably diminish over time. The value in Abound is not good.


My prediction, they will all drop and some significantly. Macroeconomic reasons, diminished VSN, insiders no longer there to buy before the deadline and reduced developer purchases (at least that's what Marriott suggested). For those that had prior knowledge, Maui was a great deal if you wanted Abound points and with less headaches, no need to buy too many contracts.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> To be more precise, Marriott bought ILG the company. Vistana was part of that, but so was Hyatt Vacation Club, II etc. But the important thing is the Master Affiliation Agreement is *only for the benefit of VSN Members. *That's why voluntary resale will likely have to be content with II trading or make a purchase to play in Abound.


The voluntary resorts belong to the same IILG purchase, that was my point and the current enrollment excludes the voluntary resorts (a majority) so   it is nothing like 2010 or other similar events. Regardless of how they obtained the link between Vistana and Marriott we all know that they can offer enrollment to any Vistana owner if they want, so this is absolutely not the issue. Marriott is just a different company than in 2010 and they have treated resale owners different than in the past.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> The voluntary resorts belong to the same IILG purchase, that was my point and the current enrollment excludes the voluntary resorts (a majority) so   it is nothing like 2010 or other similar events. Regardless of how they obtained the link between Vistana and Marriott we all know that they can offer enrollment to any Vistana owner if they want, so this is absolutely not the issue. Marriott is just a different company than in 2010 and they have treated resale owners different than in the past.


It is possible that Marriott could have offered an opt-in method of enrollment for Vistana voluntary resale VOIs just like they did for Marriott weeks back in 2010, but for whatever reason they chose not to.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> The voluntary resorts belong to the same IILG purchase, that was my point and the current enrollment excludes the voluntary resorts (a majority) so   it is nothing like 2010 or other similar events. Regardless of how they obtained the link between Vistana and Marriott we all know that they can offer enrollment to any Vistana owner if they want, so this is absolutely not the issue. Marriott is just a different company than in 2010 and they have treated resale owners different than in the past.


Voluntary resale ownerships were never in the VSN. Most bought voluntary resale contracts to use at the home resort, trade in interval, or because they had no idea they didn’t come with star options.

I don’t see why a voluntary resale contract that never had star options usage should all of a sudden get abound access, when it’s clear that in order to get abound access you need to be a member in the VSN prior to 8/9.

Those who did buy voluntary resale contracts and retro’d them with an additional purchase get to access to the VSN now have access to Abound.


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> The voluntary resorts belong to the same IILG purchase, that was my point and the current enrollment excludes the voluntary resorts (a majority) so   it is nothing like 2010 or other similar events. Regardless of how they obtained the link between Vistana and Marriott we all know that they can offer enrollment to any Vistana owner if they want, so this is absolutely not the issue. Marriott is just a different company than in 2010 and they have treated resale owners different than in the past.



I see your point, but unlike 2010 when MVC didn't have a previous points product that MVC weeks owners could have participated in, Vistana *did *have a points program, and the owners of the voluntary resales had chosen not to pay to play in that program. Given that, I suspect Marriott saw those voluntary resale owners from a different perspective than they saw MVC weeks owners in 2010. Why give voluntary resales Abound if they had already self-selected out of VSN points?


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> It is possible that Marriott could have offered an opt-in method of enrollment for Vistana voluntary resale VOIs just like they did for Marriott weeks back in 2010, but for whatever reason they chose not to.


Would voluntary resale owners pony up the cash to do it? Not only would they have to pay an initiation fee of let’s say $3,000. They also have to pay a high club dues which right now is zero. But does it stop at Abound? Do they also get access to the VSN?

It’s easier to keep them out because legally they can. They may also want to keep those owners out so they have a reason to sell them DC points at their next owners update. I suspect that’s their game plan. If they let everyone in they have less people to dangle a carrot in front of at the next sales session. Buy these points now and you’ll also be able to bring that WSJ Coral Vista resale into the Abound and VSN networks.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> It is possible that Marriott could have offered an opt-in method of enrollment for Vistana voluntary resale VOIs just like they did for Marriott weeks back in 2010, but for whatever reason they chose not to.


They could have, but chose not to. If you’ve owned a resale voluntary property I can guarantee you that they have offered to retro you in a sales presentation at some point. If you didn’t bite before you’re probably not going to be buying more expensive points in the future - so MVC probably doesn’t see you as a core customer.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Would owners pony up the cash to do it? Not only would they have to pay an initiation fee of let’s say $3,000. They also have to pay a high club dues. But does it stop at Abound? Do they also get access to the VSN?


Of course this is hypothesizing since the option doesn't exist, but I suspect it would just be a pure enrollment in Abound for whatever enrollment fee they wanted to charge. No VSN since they aren't part of VSN and they don't have to give them VSN in order to be part of Abound. They could have just enrolled through an opt-in method. They aren't covered by the VSN Rules & Regulations - Voluntary Owner agreement/document. Marriott could have set whatever terms they wanted to on the opt-in enrollment.

Would voluntary owners have done it? Hard to tell. I suspect the fee would have been a primary driver of their decision. If I owned several voluntary weeks, I would pay $3000 to enroll them all, but not $3000 for each one.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> I see your point, but unlike 2010 when MVC didn't have a previous points product that MVC weeks owners could have participated in, Vistana *did *have a points program, and the owners of the voluntary resales had chosen not to pay to play in that program. Given that, I suspect Marriott saw those voluntary resale owners from a different perspective than they saw MVC weeks owners in 2010. Why give voluntary resales Abound if they had already self-selected out of VSN points?


As I said before, the mandatory resorts have a lot to lose, the exclusive rights during the home resort reservation period and get nothing in return. The rest are really  details that can be dealt with. I am curious if there is a second act, as it should be if it is anything like 2010.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Of course this is hypothesizing since the option doesn't exist, but I suspect it would just be a pure enrollment in Abound for whatever enrollment fee they wanted to charge. No VSN since they aren't part of VSN and they don't have to give them VSN in order to be part of Abound. They could have just enrolled through an opt-in method. They aren't covered by the VSN Rules & Regulations - Voluntary Owner agreement/document. Marriott could have set whatever terms they wanted to on the opt-in enrollment.
> 
> Would voluntary owners have done it? Hard to tell. I suspect the fee would have been a primary driver of their decision. If I owned several voluntary weeks, I would pay $3000 to enroll them all, but not $3000 for each one.


We know that the “fee” has been $10k for a single unit plus $5k for additional. I don’t see them going below that.


----------



## JIMinNC

timsi said:


> As I said before, the mandatory resorts have a lot to lose, the exclusive rights during the home resort reservation period and get nothing in return. The rest are really  details that can be dealt with. I am curious if there is a second act, as it should be if it is anything like 2010.



I think a second act will happen, the only question is when. In 2010, they said post-6/2010 resales were ineligible for the DC. They may have even said worlds like "Never," but I'm not 100% sure on that. Then in 2015 or 2016, they began offering promotions for a few months each year where if you bought 2500-3000 DC Points, they would enroll one post-2010 resale week. Bigger points buys got more weeks enrolled. I suspect we will see similar offers at some point in the future to buy Abound Club Points and enroll post-8/2022 mandatory VSN resales and unenrolled voluntary weeks.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> I think a second act will happen, the only question is when. In 2010, they said post-6/2010 resales were ineligible for the DC. They may have even said worlds like "Never," but I'm not 100% sure on that. Then in 2015 or 2016, they began offering promotions for a few months each year where if you bought 2500-3000 DC Points, they would enroll one post-2010 resale week. Bigger points buys got more weeks enrolled. I suspect we will see similar offers at some point in the future to buy Abound Club Points and enroll post-8/2022 mandatory VSN resales and unenrolled voluntary weeks.


I am not talking in  2027 but in the next few weeks. You can't just take rights from owners and then wait 5 years to see what happens. And regardless, I still think they are on a very shaky foundation because they have used clauses that are so vague and not intended for what they did that the whole construction would not stand a neutral scrutiny if challenged.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Oh wow, that’s a real intricate detail to lie about in order to make a sale.



It's still happening. See this brand new thread from the Marriott Forum about 30 minutes ago:









						Just Purchased in the Abound program @ Ko Olina
					

Just spent a week a Ko Olina and sat through the new presentation into the abound trust point system. I was a originally a Platinum deeded week at the Grand Chateau who then converted to be able to us the MVC exchange company. We had previously canceled buying into the trust points system in...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## DanCali

timsi said:


> Vistana owns all the resorts and the owners interact with Vistana for every aspect of their ownership.



I thought we owned the resorts


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> We know that the “fee” has been $10k for a single unit plus $5k for additional. I don’t see them going below that.


But that $10K+$5K also bought you additional ownership. If it is pure enrollment where you don't buy any actual real estate, it might be a lower fee.


----------



## timsi

It is interesting when those that got what they wanted apparently, and more, are telling the others that this is how it is supposed to be.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> It is interesting when those that got what they wanted apparently, and more, are telling the others that this is how it is supposed to be.


Not necessarily how it is supposed to be, but how it is.


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> It's still happening. See this brand new thread from the Marriott Forum about 30 minutes ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just Purchased in the Abound program @ Ko Olina
> 
> 
> Just spent a week a Ko Olina and sat through the new presentation into the abound trust point system. I was a originally a Platinum deeded week at the Grand Chateau who then converted to be able to us the MVC exchange company. We had previously canceled buying into the trust points system in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Hard to believe the higher management does not know about these cases and yet nothing seems to happen to these reps (except bonuses probably) .  I have to continue to be skeptical that they deal fairly with everything else including the inventory.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> It is possible that Marriott could have offered an opt-in method of enrollment for Vistana voluntary resale VOIs just like they did for Marriott weeks back in 2010, but for whatever reason they chose not to.


They do not need them plus they are  not part of VSN.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Not necessarily how it is supposed to be, but how it is.


I’m confused…. Are they saying voluntary resale ownerships should also have abound access? In the 3 years I’ve been on TUG I don’t remember anyone with any knowledge of Vistana and how ownership in the VSN works thought voluntary would be part of a combined program.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> They do not need them plus they are  not part of VSN.


It is more about them thinking they don't need them for the inventory. We know that VSN membership isn't really a requirement for Abound membership it is just the mechanism they setup to bring as many VSN owners into Abound as possible automatically.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> They do not need them plus they are  not part of VSN.


They need them…. They need someone to sell club points to in order to enroll that voluntary resale week.


----------



## Red elephant

JIMinNC said:


> I see your point, but unlike 2010 when MVC didn't have a previous points product that MVC weeks owners could have participated in, Vistana *did *have a points program, and the owners of the voluntary resales had chosen not to pay to play in that program. Given that, I suspect Marriott saw those voluntary resale owners from a different perspective than they saw MVC weeks owners in 2010. Why give voluntary resales Abound if they had already self-selected out of VSN points?


Maybe it’s the voluntary owners that the sales team meant when they said you had to be enrolled in order to play in the sand box.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> They need them…. They need someone to sell club points to in order to enroll that voluntary resale week.


They do not need them in  Abound right now not  that they don’t need them to sell points to.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> They do not need them in  Abound right now not  that they don’t need them to sell points to.


The don’t need them right now but it’s a steady stream of existing owners to sell to in the upcoming years


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> The don’t need them right now but it’s a steady stream of existing owners to sell to in the upcoming years


We were repeating the same thing.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> That would be the honorable thing to do. But I’m not holding my breath.


If you are referring to me. No one owes me anything [definitely not an apology].
I will definitely be coming to collect some "crow" from Robert on rollout-day. 
We will revisit Post-#916 to compare the naiveté of some based on an email that proves nothing different.
"Access" is no different that what has been discussed so far. "Access" is not "Status". "Option" means exactly what it is.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> If you are referring to me. No one owes me anything [definitely not an apology].
> I will definitely be coming to collect some "crow" from Robert on rollout-day.
> We will revisit Post-#916 to compare the naiveté of some based on an email that proves nothing different.
> "Access" is no different that what has been discussed so far. "Access" is not "Status". "Option" means exactly what it is.


No. It wasn’t referring to you at all.


----------



## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> No. It wasn’t referring to you at all.


I know it wasn't you.

Since you quoted the post, I replied to your post. 
Apologies for the confusion.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Received the same mandatory email - good news.

What still confuses me is what happens to post 8/8/2022 mandatory resale purchases. By the CC&Rs they still participate in VSN but participation in Abound requires a retro purchase, correct? 

This dynamic may affect the resale value of our existing deeds. Or with staroptions grandfathered it may not.


----------



## ocdb8r

...no email for me.  Only mandatory resorts I own are SVR. 

Here's to hoping it's just being sent out in waves.


----------



## Julian926

For mandatory - anyone with ideas on how they will give us access to Marriott Bonvoy?  Would It be a cost associated with this?


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> ...no email for me.  Only mandatory resorts I own are SVR.
> 
> Here's to hoping it's just being sent out in waves.


I am not sure SVR is mandatory.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> It is more about them thinking they don't need them for the inventory. We know that VSN membership isn't really a requirement for Abound membership it is just the mechanism they setup to bring as many VSN owners into Abound as possible automatically.



Marriott probably thought, and probably wrong, that the voluntary resale owners are not needed the way they constructed the legal frame. 
I do not agree that the voluntary resale inventory is the issue for not inviting the voluntary resale to the table. It is likely that the best weeks, views at some of the best resorts are in the hands of the resale owners. I believe that the junk inventory has a much higher probability to be foreclosed or just given back to Vistana while the best VOIs continue to be used, rented, and eventually sold to other owners for $($$). There is no ROFR at most of the Vistana resorts, so Marriott does not have an easy way to get the cream of the crop from us. If anything, anyone who wants to exchange in Abound should be happy if they invite the current voluntary Vistana owners to be part of Abound.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I am not sure SVR is mandatory.


Sorry, SVV (in the mandatory phases).  I know they are mandatory as I have StarOptions and these were purchased resale.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> Sorry, SVV (in the mandatory phases).  I know they are mandatory as I have StarOptions and these were purchased resale.


Did you retro them?


----------



## dioxide45

Julian926 said:


> For mandatory - anyone with ideas on how they will give us access to Marriott Bonvoy?  Would It be a cost associated with this?


No cost.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> Marriott probably thought, and probably wrong, that the voluntary resale owners are not needed the way they constructed the legal frame. The Harborside owners received an email last night that in part is trying to address the issue of priority during the home reservation period. Of course, it contains the same mischaracterization that by any reasonable standard makes a mockery out of what priority means. The fact that they thought they had to address it is suggesting they are concerned that this is Achille’s heel and that owners are starting to ask questions.
> 
> 
> I do not agree that the voluntary resale inventory is the issue for not inviting the voluntary resale to the table. It is likely that the best weeks, views at some of the best resorts are in the hands of the resale owners. I believe that the junk inventory has a much higher probability to be foreclosed or just given back to Vistana while the best VOIs continue to be used, rented, and eventually sold to other owners for $($$). There is no ROFR at most of the Vistana resorts, so Marriott does not have an easy way to get the cream of the crop from us. If anything, anyone who wants to exchange in Abound should be happy if they invite the current voluntary Vistana owners to be part of Abound.


I really wouldn't have an issue if they offered an opt-in method for Abound membership to Voluntary owners. I think perhaps one issue may be that none of the voluntary resorts really have "views". Those only exist in a few resorts (mainly Maui), which are Mandatory. That just doesn't seem to be the direction they took. We can question their logic all day long, but I don't think it will change the reality.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Received the same mandatory email - good news.
> 
> What still confuses me is what happens to post 8/8/2022 mandatory resale purchases. By the CC&Rs they still participate in VSN but participation in Abound requires a retro purchase, correct?
> 
> This dynamic may affect the resale value of our existing deeds. Or with staroptions grandfathered it may not.


Yes, it seems that to bring those post 8/8 mandatory resales into Abound, it would require a retro of some type. I think long term it may diminish the value of certain resale deeds. Perhaps more in Orlando than in Hawaii and Scottsdale. A lot will depend on what the inventory dynamic looks like in VSN long term. If the "good stuff" goes to Abound, people may be less inclined to want to buy these mandatory deeds.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> I really wouldn't have an issue if they offered an opt-in method for Abound membership to Voluntary owners. I think perhaps one issue may be that none of the voluntary resorts really have "views". Those only exist in a few resorts (mainly Maui), which are Mandatory. That just doesn't seem to be the direction they took. We can question their logic all day long, but I don't think it will change the reality.


Lagunamar has oceanside and event weeks, this may be the case with other resorts. I was also referring to the prime season, not just specific weeks of the calendar. A week that includes the mud season has a higher chance to foreclose than one that contains the ski season.

We do not know what changes lay ahead of us. From what I can tell, since the beginning of the year and possibly in the last few weeks they have already changed their mind about several issues. Also, for those that are members of VSN but own both mandatory and voluntary weeks, they can very easily include all the weeks in Abound including voluntary, since they are members already through mandatory. The criteria could be at owner level not at VOI level, even if VSN access remains as is.


----------



## SandyPGravel

CPNY said:


> Well here we go!! Looks like mandatory resale units are included and will be getting bonvoy access!!
> View attachment 63902


Weird, I didn't receive the email you did, but I did receive an email confirming my 2024 Fixed/Fixed.  (Weird since I mentioned this yesterday on this thread ) 19+ months in advance


----------



## bigbillf

I got the email yesterday...... Outside of developer units, we own a voluntary resale at SVV purchased many years ago from the HOA that we retro'ed in March 2022.  This unit was essentially the same as a mandatory resale unit (comes with SO's but does not count toward elite or converted to SPG/Bonvoy points).  The process of retro'ing included a VSN membership agreement that has provisions of enrolling this unit in the VSN network.  In this case there should be no doubt this unit's SO's will be permitted for us to elect into Abound.

The only issue for us, like others who may have done the same, is if mandatory/HOA resales are permitted to elect into Abound without a further purchase or fees, that did we unnecessarily pay to retro this unit based on the representation of the Vistana sales presentation back in March 2020 that this unit would not qualify to be elected into the Marriott network?


----------



## dioxide45

bigbillf said:


> I got the email yesterday...... Outside of developer units, we own a voluntary resale at SVV purchased many years ago from the HOA that we retro'ed in March 2022.  This unit was essentially the same as a mandatory resale unit (comes with SO's but does not count toward elite or converted to SPG/Bonvoy points).  The process of retro'ing included a VSN membership agreement that has provisions of enrolling this unit in the VSN network.  In this case there should be no doubt this unit's SO's will be permitted for us to elect into Abound.
> 
> The only issue for us, like others who may have done the same, is if mandatory/HOA resales are permitted to elect into Abound without a further purchase or fees, that did we unnecessarily pay to retro this unit based on the representation of the Vistana sales presentation back in March 2020 that this unit would not qualify to be elected into the Marriott network?


Since you retro'ed the week into full VSN access, it isn't really considered purchased from an unauthorized agent anymore for the purpose of Abound. It will be treated as a developer purchase but it seems they are still including the these weeks in the communication they sent out to resale owners.

From everything we know, there will be no cost to enroll and no cost to elect Abound points for mandatory VSN VOIs purchased from an unauthorized agent.


----------



## cubigbird

pchung6 said:


> Marriott employees are monitoring this board? It seems they know our concerns here..


Now to fix the banking limitations and the elite early checkin in, late check out.


----------



## Eric B

cubigbird said:


> Now to fix the banking limitations and the elite early checkin in, late check out.



Easy fix for the two year banking - buy enough points to get to Chairman’s Club!


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> Easy fix for the two year banking - buy enough points to get to Chairman’s Club!


They are “banking” on people chasing status. I feel like that’s a thing on the Marriott side of business. I don’t recall many vistana owners always trying to get to 3 star, 4 star, or even 5 star. Being a lower class owner in the Marriott system doesn’t sit well with many legacy Marriott owners.


----------



## Jimmyboy

Ken555 said:


> And this is why I still have two of them, even though I no longer put much spend on them given the Marriott devaluation (and that I have too many points right now).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jimmyboy

I got the email.  I am Chairman level.  Have a trips coming up in Oct and January.  Lots to talk about around the pool.  No more updates for us.  Love the Bonvoy points but hate the BS.


----------



## zjhasan1976

Being a Mandatory Resale owner at SVV, I guess this is overall good news for me.  We can get into the Marriott network and are grandfathered in for Bonvoy points conversion (which we didn't have before).   I had a question about converting Star Options to Bonvoy Points.  Is it a straight conversion of 81,000 SOs into X number of Bonvoy points?  If so, anyone know the conversion rate? (Star Options to Bonvoy Points)  I have 81k points EOY at SVV Bella.


----------



## dioxide45

zjhasan1976 said:


> Being a Mandatory Resale owner at SVV, I guess this is overall good news for me.  We can get into the Marriott network and are grandfathered in for Bonvoy points conversion (which we didn't have before).   I had a question about converting Star Options to Bonvoy Points.  Is it a straight conversion of 81,000 SOs into X number of Bonvoy points?  If so, anyone know the conversion rate? (Star Options to Bonvoy Points)  I have 81k points EOY at SVV Bella.


You will be able to convert your VOI to Bonvoy points. You don't convert StarOptions. If you look in your "What I Own" in your Vistana.com account, it will show you what each of your VOIs convert to for Bonvoy;


----------



## Jimmyboy

dioxide45 said:


> You will be able to convert your VOI to Bonvoy points. You don't convert StarOptions. If you look in your "What I Own" in your Vistana.com account, it will show you what each of your VOIs convert to for Bonvoy;
> View attachment 63938


I think the conversion is pretty crappy myself.  That is the main reason I never qualified my Mandatory resales.  That and the required additional purchase requirements.


----------



## dioxide45

Jimmyboy said:


> I think the conversion is pretty crappy myself.  That is the main reason I never qualified my Mandatory resales.  That and the required additional purchase requirements.


Conversion to Bonvoy has not been a good value for many years.


----------



## TravelTime

*Question for Marriott Vacation Club Company Investors about Salesforce Tactics*

I have made a big decision. I will never go to a sales presentation again! All they do is lie and try to sell more points. I am lucky to become Chairman’s Club level now and that’s it, no more BS. If I happen to need more points, I will rent them. If I want to purchase more points, I will do it over the phone and get a hybrid package. I see no need to ever go to a sleazy sales presentation again. 

If Marriott ever cleans up their act with honest sales people and selling the program on its true benefits, then I will be happy to go to sales presentations again. The Abound program is really a great vacation program so Marriott could sell it honestly and make just as many sales IMO. It would require great training and monitoring the sales force. Also they would need to make manager bonuses contingent on honesty.

I asked a question earlier on this thread. Why don’t the investors care that Marriott is either not training their salesforce or actually telling their salesforce to lie to make sales? Companies that lie to sell products usually do not survive. They are liked used salespersons but in a premium Tesla lot. Seems like a house of cards. Why would investors be happy with how Marriott makes billions by lying? Why don’t investor care? Doesn’t this ever come up at investor meetings? 

Is it possible for some of the Tuggers who own Marriott stock to ask this question? I said earlier I would never own Marriott stock and this is a big reason. I would not own the stock of an unethical company. Not even sure why I own timeshares! LOL


----------



## remowidget

...


----------



## remowidget

....


----------



## CPNY

remowidget said:


> Has anyone with only voluntary resales received this?


It doesn’t look like it. I should say, it doesn’t look like anyone who owns unenrolled voluntary resale contracts received it.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Received the same mandatory email - good news.
> 
> What still confuses me is what happens to post 8/8/2022 mandatory resale purchases. By the CC&Rs they still participate in VSN but participation in Abound requires a retro purchase, correct?
> 
> This dynamic may affect the resale value of our existing deeds. Or with staroptions grandfathered it may not.



I still did not receive the email. I hope they can see I would WKOVRN. I should text or call.


----------



## dsmrp

Yesterday's email appears targeted to mandatory resorts owners, although their mailing list is not up to date.

I did not receive the email since I own direct buy and ( 10+ yrs ago) retro'd units at a voluntary resort.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I still did not receive the email. I hope they can see I would WKOVRN. I should text or call.


Is that all that you own?


----------



## dsmrp

TravelTime said:


> I still did not receive the email. I hope they can see I would WKOVRN. I should text or call.


Maybe it's in your spam folder, LOL


----------



## dioxide45

I thought I read here, or perhaps another thread, that Harborside owners received a different email? If so, does anyone have that email they could post here?


----------



## YYJMSP

dsmrp said:


> Yesterday's email appears targeted to mandatory resorts owners, although their mailing list is not up to date.
> 
> I did not receive the email since I own direct buy and ( 10+ yrs ago) retro'd units at a voluntary resort.



I DID get the email, and I am in the same situation -- only developer or retro'ed units

if it was targeted at mandatory non-VSN owners, I am not in that data set...


----------



## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> I DID get the email, and I am in the same situation -- only developer or retro'ed units
> 
> if it was targeted at mandatory non-VSN owners, I am not in that data set...


How long ago did you retro?

I think your last sentence should actually read "targeted at mandatory non-retro owners"? All mandatory resale owners are also in VSN.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Is that all that you own?



With Vistana, yes. I also own 11,600 Abound points annualized so WKOVRN will put me at Chairman’s Level. I just emailed them to find out why I did not receive it.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I thought I read here, or perhaps another thread, that Harborside owners received a different email? If so, does anyone have that email they could post here?


Idk if they received a different email but I used to be a HRA owner (developer purchase). I sometimes get emails from vistana regarding board elections for the HRA HOA. I received two emails yesterday. The first was the one I posted about the mandatory resorts. The second email I received right after was just sharing exciting news. This was at the bottom of that email.

Is it possible that my email is still somehow associated with that HRA unit I sold? I understand that some other owners had similar verbiage regarding Westin Riverfront.


----------



## alexadeparis

So, a careful reading of the email indicates that Abound points can be had from a mandatory resale.  That that they "anticipate" future Bonvoy points. Then, they go on to Capitalize only the word Owner in Owner benefit level, which to me means exactly what it says, which is that you will be at Owner benefit level with no status. If you have a non retroed mandatory you can get Abound points, but no status or Bonvoy points, JUST as it is in the VSN today. So technically, they didn't lie when they said you would need to retro to get full access - the retro buys you the Bonvoy status and the Bonvoy conversion. I think the anticipate language also means there may be a fee involved later to get that bonvoy access. With that status comes better banking and earlier booking among other things. I am not upset with the retro that I did, I didn't want to risk being shut out and now I will be presidential, and depending on HRA values, possibly Chairman someday. My total VSN developer purchases were $35k, and I am fine with that. I know many have paid a lot more to be Presidential.


----------



## dioxide45

alexadeparis said:


> So, a careful reading of the email indicates that Abound points can be had from a mandatory resale.  That that they "anticipate" future Bonvoy points. Then, they go on to Capitalize only the word Owner in Owner benefit level, which to means exactly what it says. If you have a non retroed mandatory you can get Abound points, but no status or Bonvoy points, JUST as it is in the VSN today. So technically, they didn't lie when they said you would need to retro to get full access - the retro buys you the Bonvoy status and the Bonvoy conversion. I thnk the anticipate language also means there may be a fee involved later to get that bonvoy access. With that status comes better banking and earlier booking among other things. I am not upset with the retro that I did, I didn't want to risk being shut out and now I will be presidential, and depending on HRA values, possibly Chairman someday. My total VSN developer purchases were $35k, and I am fine with that. I know many have paid a lot more to be Presidential.


This is how some of us are interpreting the wording of "Owner benefit level". Some others are not.

They could have said instead "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel*s*" but they didn't. We do see "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel" in the FAQ, but it does not have an s at the end. There could be a typo in the FAQ or elsewhere, but I have counted three places now where it says "Owner *b*enefit *l*evel", only "Owner" is capitalized. This is the reason that I think Abound points from unauthorized mandatory VOIs won't qualify for higher Abound *O*wner *B*enefit Level*s*. I think they will grant unauthorized mandatory owners the *Owner* benefit level. Here is a screen shot of the benefits at a glance chart showing that as a level. This level would still grant Gold Elite status in Bonvoy.




That said, it does seem that, per the email, Bonvoy conversion will be available. But that doesn't mean higher Bonvoy statuses (above Gold) will be.


----------



## dioxide45

Of course, with all that in my prior post. I can't find anywhere in the MVC Abound Exchange Procedures where it stipulates such a restriction. Unless it is contained in the VSN Rules & Regulations for mandatory owners. Of which no updated version has been published.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Of course, with all that in my prior post. I can't find anywhere in the MVC Abound Exchange Procedures where it stipulates such a restriction. Unless it is contained in the VSN Rules & Regulations for mandatory owners. Of which no updated version has been published.



In my read of that document, OBL is set based on the total number of exchange points owned.  I understand that’s how it works currently in the Marriott system and there aren’t two classes of points in Abound.  Unless they make substantive changes to the procedures before it goes live, I am concluding that I’ll get the OBL corresponding to the number of Abound points I own without regard to source.

I would also probably consider the capitalization issue as being on a par with the copy editing quality and other ancillary services like IT that aren’t core to timeshare management (but probably ought to be).


----------



## Julian926

dioxide45 said:


> You will be able to convert your VOI to Bonvoy points. You don't convert StarOptions. If you look in your "What I Own" in your Vistana.com account, it will show you what each of your VOIs convert to for Bonvoy;
> View attachment 63938


Yay, that gets me 2 nights at the local Marriott.


----------



## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> This is how some of us are interpreting the wording of "Owner benefit level". Some others are not.
> 
> They could have said instead "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel*s*" but they didn't. We do see "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel" in the FAQ, but it does not have an s at the end. There could be a typo in the FAQ or elsewhere, but I have counted three places now where it says "Owner *b*enefit *l*evel", only "Owner" is capitalized. This is the reason that I think Abound points from unauthorized mandatory VOIs won't qualify for higher Abound *O*wner *B*enefit Level*s*. I think they will grant unauthorized mandatory owners the *Owner* benefit level. Here is a screen shot of the benefits at a glance chart showing that as a level. This level would still grant Gold Elite status in Bonvoy.
> View attachment 63944
> 
> That said, it does seem that, per the email, Bonvoy conversion will be available. But that doesn't mean higher Bonvoy statuses (above Gold) will be.


yes i edited my post to make it clear i am in agreement with what you are saying here.


----------



## Jsanchez0989

jabberwocky said:


> Not happy with the change in banking. That is huge. Probably the number one feature we used.
> 
> Think they would relent as they did with the guest fees if there is enough of a pushback?



Not sure if this has been asked, but I own Harborside with only 44k staroptions. I purchased a resale before I knew how SO worked. But now that banking will only be for 1 year, how can I get more staroptions, will this even exist or be possible. What would be some options? If I purchase another mandatory resale will I get the staroptions? Is there even anything that I could do? Im looking to have enough to often visit Hawaii and get a 1 bed/2 bed. 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, it seems that to bring those post 8/8 mandatory resales into Abound, it would require a retro of some type. I think long term it may diminish the value of certain resale deeds. Perhaps more in Orlando than in Hawaii and Scottsdale. A lot will depend on what the inventory dynamic looks like in VSN long term. If the "good stuff" goes to Abound, people may be less inclined to want to buy these mandatory deeds.


Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. So that means that post 08/08 mamdatory resales can only use Staroptions without a requal. Into Abound?

I am going to read the terms very closely before enrolling. I want to ensure we are not removing the deed from mandatory SO rights in the fine print which would affect eventual resale.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. So that means that post 08/08 mamdatory resales can only use Staroptions without a requal. Into Abound?
> 
> I am going to read the terms very closely before enrolling. I want to ensure we are not removing the deed from mandatory SO rights in the fine print which would affect eventual resale.


If you own a week already in VSN, there is no "enrolling". You are automatically being enrolled via your VSN Member status. There may be an option to opt-out, but we really don't know what that means or what criteria is involved to qualify.


----------



## CPNY

I just asked vistana how will they figure out the status level for each owner. I was told it’s going to be based on the contracts you have in Vistana and amount of club points you get from the star options that are eligible to convert and if you have current elite status within the VSN.

I then asked for more clarification since I don’t have any elite status now. The CS rep walked me through the “learn more” section on the Vistana site which he said would be tailored to my profile. It wasn’t tailored much so he put me on hold to clarify….

After a long hold, a disconnect, and a call back here is what I was told by the new CS rep. *“When the vistana side aligns with the Marriott side there is a certain amount of star options you have to own to get to a certain tier, we are just retiring the elite star names to be more in line with Marriott”*

My FU question: Do resale contracts count towards benefit level? I was put on another lengthy hold…..

Here is what she came back with:
*“When the merger finally happens we are stepping away from elite and it depends on the star options that convert to club points. Once you’ve been given the amount of club points for your VOI’s that will determine your level”.

“Bottom line as long as they are enrolled in the VSN they will count”.* I asked if mine were enrolled and she said as far as she can see all of them are VSN enrolled (they are all mandatory resale).


Taking a look at this “Your new Owner benefit level will be determined by the amount of Club Point election value your VOIs convert to” the case can be made that all ownerships eligible for Abound will count toward Owner benefit levelS especially since it doesn’t say anything about  only “eligible VOI’s” counting.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> This is how some of us are interpreting the wording of "Owner benefit level". Some others are not.
> 
> They could have said instead "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel*s*" but they didn't. We do see "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel" in the FAQ, but it does not have an s at the end. There could be a typo in the FAQ or elsewhere, but I have counted three places now where it says "Owner *b*enefit *l*evel", only "Owner" is capitalized. This is the reason that I think Abound points from unauthorized mandatory VOIs won't qualify for higher Abound *O*wner *B*enefit Level*s*. I think they will grant unauthorized mandatory owners the *Owner* benefit level. Here is a screen shot of the benefits at a glance chart showing that as a level. This level would still grant Gold Elite status in Bonvoy.
> View attachment 63944
> 
> That said, it does seem that, per the email, Bonvoy conversion will be available. But that doesn't mean higher Bonvoy statuses (above Gold) will be.



Possibly, but having spent over two decades in a big company in the past, with much of it in corporate marketing, I think there is a really good chance this may just be sloppy copy editing. Time will tell, but there are so many inconsistencies in usage, my bet is sloppy editing.


----------



## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> *Question for Marriott Vacation Club Company Investors about Salesforce Tactics*
> 
> I have made a big decision. I will never go to a sales presentation again! All they do is lie and try to sell more points. I am lucky to become Chairman’s Club level now and that’s it, no more BS. If I happen to need more points, I will rent them. If I want to purchase more points, I will do it over the phone and get a hybrid package. I see no need to ever go to a sleazy sales presentation again.
> 
> If Marriott ever cleans up their act with honest sales people and selling the program on its true benefits, then I will be happy to go to sales presentations again. The Abound program is really a great vacation program so Marriott could sell it honestly and make just as many sales IMO. It would require great training and monitoring the sales force. Also they would need to make manager bonuses contingent on honesty.
> 
> I asked a question earlier on this thread. Why don’t the investors care that Marriott is either not training their salesforce or actually telling their salesforce to lie to make sales? Companies that lie to sell products usually do not survive. They are liked used salespersons but in a premium Tesla lot. Seems like a house of cards. Why would investors be happy with how Marriott makes billions by lying? Why don’t investor care? Doesn’t this ever come up at investor meetings?
> 
> Is it possible for some of the Tuggers who own Marriott stock to ask this question? I said earlier I would never own Marriott stock and this is a big reason. I would not own the stock of an unethical company. Not even sure why I own timeshares! LOL



At the various investor presentations and earnings calls, my experience is general shareholders like me are in listen-only mode through an online streaming link. The people actually on the call who can ask management questions are the various stock analysts from the investment firms that cover the stock with buy/hold/sell recommendations. The vast majority of the questions asked are of a financial nature to help the analysts with input into their firm's revenue and earnings forecast models. They also ask a lot of questions about tour volume and close rates to get an idea of the sales pipeline, but in the end, the analysts on the calls are more concerned with the next 12-18 months revenue and earnings targets than anything else. I've often wondered listening to these calls if any of the analysts actually own the products or have ever been to a timeshare sales presentation.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I just asked vistana how do they will figure out the status level. I was told based on the contracts you have and amount of star options that convert and current elite status.
> 
> I then asked for clarification since I don’t have any elite status now. He walked me through the learn more section where he said it would be tailored to my profile. It wasn’t tailored much so he put me on hold to clarify….
> 
> After a long hold, a disconnect, and a call back here is what I was told by the new rep. *“When the vistana side aligns with the Marriott side there is a certain amount of star options you have to own to get to a certain tier, we are just retiring the elite star names to be more in line with Marriott”*
> 
> My FU question: Do resale contracts count towards benefit level? I was put on another lengthy hold…..
> 
> Here is what she came back with:
> *“When the merger finally happens we are stepping away from elite and it depends on the star options that convert to club points. Once you’ve been given the amount of club points for your VOI’s that will determine your level”.
> 
> “Bottom line as long as they are enrolled in the VSN they will count”.* I asked if mine were enrolled and she said as far as she can see all of them are VSN enrolled (they are all mandatory resale).
> 
> 
> Taking a look at this “Your new Owner benefit level will be determined by the amount of Club Point election value your VOIs convert to” the case can be made that all ownerships eligible for Abound will count toward Owner benefit levelS especially since it doesn’t say anything about  only “eligible VOI’s” counting.
> 
> View attachment 63949



Are they able to see on Abound/MVC side that you have a Vistana mandatory week that applies to the new Abound program? I am wondering because I did not get the email and wondering if they do not see my mandatory week in the Abound?MVC system.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I just asked vistana how do they will figure out the status level. I was told based on the contracts you have and amount of star options that convert and current elite status.
> 
> I then asked for clarification since I don’t have any elite status now. He walked me through the learn more section where he said it would be tailored to my profile. It wasn’t tailored much so he put me on hold to clarify….
> 
> After a long hold, a disconnect, and a call back here is what I was told by the new rep. *“When the vistana side aligns with the Marriott side there is a certain amount of star options you have to own to get to a certain tier, we are just retiring the elite star names to be more in line with Marriott”*
> 
> My FU question: Do resale contracts count towards benefit level? I was put on another lengthy hold…..
> 
> Here is what she came back with:
> *“When the merger finally happens we are stepping away from elite and it depends on the star options that convert to club points. Once you’ve been given the amount of club points for your VOI’s that will determine your level”.
> 
> “Bottom line as long as they are enrolled in the VSN they will count”.* I asked if mine were enrolled and she said as far as she can see all of them are VSN enrolled (they are all mandatory resale).
> 
> 
> Taking a look at this “Your new Owner benefit level will be determined by the amount of Club Point election value your VOIs convert to” the case can be made that all ownerships eligible for Abound will count toward Owner benefit levelS especially since it doesn’t say anything about  only “eligible VOI’s” counting.
> 
> View attachment 63949





JIMinNC said:


> Possibly, but having spent over two decades in a big company in the past, with much of it in corporate marketing, I think there is a really good chance this may just be sloppy copy editing. Time will tell, but there are so many inconsistencies in usage, my bet is sloppy editing.


I would be pleased if correct, it would put us at Executive. If what I was thinking is correct, we would still just be Select based on our MVC ownerships.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> This is how some of us are interpreting the wording of "Owner benefit level". Some others are not.
> 
> They could have said instead "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel*s*" but they didn't. We do see "Owner *B*enefit *L*evel" in the FAQ, but it does not have an s at the end. There could be a typo in the FAQ or elsewhere, but I have counted three places now where it says "Owner *b*enefit *l*evel", only "Owner" is capitalized. This is the reason that I think Abound points from unauthorized mandatory VOIs won't qualify for higher Abound *O*wner *B*enefit Level*s*. I think they will grant unauthorized mandatory owners the *Owner* benefit level. Here is a screen shot of the benefits at a glance chart showing that as a level. This level would still grant Gold Elite status in Bonvoy.
> View attachment 63944
> 
> That said, it does seem that, per the email, Bonvoy conversion will be available. But that doesn't mean higher Bonvoy statuses (above Gold) will be.



I am confused with what Owner benefit level vs Owner Benefit Levels means?


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> I would be pleased if correct, it would put us at Executive. If what I was thinking is correct, we would still just be Select based on our MVC ownerships.



Good copy editing in advertising is becoming a lost art because the emphasis now is on speed. Just the other day, I saw a big headline in an online rental car ad by a major company advertising
*Great Rates on Renal Cars *


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Good copy editing in advertising is becoming a lost art because the emphasis now is on speed. Just the other day, I saw a big headline in an online rental car ad by a major company advertising
> *Great Rates on Renal Cars *


Cars shaped kidneys?! What will they think of next


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...It would be nice to have resale mandatory to Bonvoy conversion but its not a showstopper.

I've been converting our resale TS to Bonvoy points for years. How? By paying for our maint fees using a Bonvoy Credit card for 6x. Great value and does not reduce our Vistana stays.

Credit card also provides Marriott elite status.


----------



## YYJMSP

dioxide45 said:


> How long ago did you retro?
> 
> I think your last sentence should actually read "targeted at mandatory non-retro owners"? All mandatory resale owners are also in VSN.



i think the last transactions were done in 2011, so like 11yrs ago...

the post i replied to said "I did not receive the email since I own direct buy and ( 10+ yrs ago) retro'd units at a voluntary resort. " which would match us, but we received the email...


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...It would be nice to have resale mandatory to Bonvoy conversion but its not a showstopper.


I am not sure why you think mandatory won't have Bonvoy conversion? It says it right here in the email we got last night;


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> I am confused with what Owner benefit level vs Owner Benefit Levels means?



IMHO (or Imho - same thing) it's just the result of sloppy editing and there is no difference.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...It would be nice to have resale mandatory to Bonvoy conversion but its not a showstopper.
> 
> I've been converting our resale TS to Bonvoy points for years. How? By paying for our maint fees using a Bonvoy Credit card for 6x. Great value and does not reduce our Vistana stays.
> 
> Credit card also provides Marriott elite status.



I did not realized a resale week could be converted to Bonvoy points. A few questions:
- Why would you convert with the low conversion rate from a week to Bonvoy points? It does not make sense to me.
- How many Bonvoy points did you get for your week?
- Which week did you convert?
- Does that mean you did not use or rent your week?
- Do you just mean paying your MFs with the Bonvoy CC, not converting the week to Bonvoy points?


----------



## Grandma2016

cubigbird said:


> Now to fix the banking limitations and the elite early checkin in, late check out.


Yes please


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Now to fix the banking limitations and the elite early checkin in, late check out.


Not sure they fixed anything when they clarified VSN mandatory resale qualifications. Fixing or changing rule changes might be a little harder.


----------



## timsi

They are not going to "fix" banking, the scope is clear to make sure they level the field where necessary and offer Abound competitive advantages whenever possible (like 12 month booking) to make sure Abound attracts gradually but surely as much inventory as possible.


----------



## jabberwocky

Jsanchez0989 said:


> Not sure if this has been asked, but I own Harborside with only 44k staroptions. I purchased a resale before I knew how SO worked. But now that banking will only be for 1 year, how can I get more staroptions, will this even exist or be possible. What would be some options? If I purchase another mandatory resale will I get the staroptions? Is there even anything that I could do? Im looking to have enough to often visit Hawaii and get a 1 bed/2 bed.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


While nothing is certain, if you just want to use StarOptions you can buy another mandatory week (SVV or WKV seem to be popular choices).  It appears that the VSN system will keep going and is not being dismantled.  

If want Hawaii I would but a mandatory WKORV in either the north or south phase. They will give you priority booking, but it will be more expensive MF wise.


----------



## DavidnRobin

…..
Reduce risk - if you can, buy where you want to go


----------



## Great3

CPNY said:


> It doesn’t look like it. I should say, it doesn’t look like anyone who owns unenrolled voluntary resale contracts received it.



I don't know why I read thru almost 50 pages of posting on this topic, since I have no horse in this Race.  I had been considering a Mandatory resale for a long long time, but just never did it.  I guess I was only interested to see if mandatory resale would lose value / retain any value if VSN was truly dismantled completely as stated by the "Insider" posting.  It seems to me even post 08/09, mandatory resales can still trade in VSN with SO, so that's the only thing I care about, as none of the rest of the "benefits" in Abound will affect me, since I will be too late to the game and will be post 08/09 if I ever decided to get into VSN.  And I am okay with that, I know what I am buying, and what I am getting, and I only buy if I am okay with it.  So, I read thru this long thread just to see what material changes might be important if I want to get a mandatory resale in the future, if it even will still exist as a concept within VSN.

Having said that, I only own 1 SBP week, Voluntary Resale, and I did get the email, which I know is in error, given the state of their Website and IT issues, I don't believe anything I receive, even if it's in email to me directly.

I am not a VSN member, and it clearly states so, when I go to look at what I own in the Vistana dashboard (VSN Member = NO), yet I have to chuckle when the email said:  "*Because you’re a member in the VSN*, you will be able to elect to receive Club Points in Abound even though your Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) was not purchased from the Developer, meaning that you will be able to access Abound without an additional purchase."

So, even though I know I won't qualify for Abound, and shouldn't get Abound, and don't care if I get Abound, I wouldn't put it past Marriott's IT to put me in Abound somehow (along with a big club due to pay), even if I don't qualify, if they can mess up and send me an email telling me I am in!  I was also reading the thread to see if anybody who owns Voluntary resale(s) only got the email, and it seems not, that I am the only one to get this email.   However in thinking about this, I think most who owns only Voluntary resale(s) only wouldn't care about this thread, and wouldn't be reading about Abound changes that won't affect them.  Therefore, they won't be in this thread to respond like me.

So if the emails are targeted only, than they got my status with VSN marked wrong on some list somewhere.  My gut feeling is that anybody who owns a Vistana week pretty much got this same email, which would make more sense, although they shouldn't be sending a mass email like this to someone who doesn't qualify to be part of Abound, that's would be a colossal mistake, because many Vistana owner who aren't TUG members probably doesn't even know that they are Voluntary Resale(s) owner only, and are thinking they are going to get Benefits in Abound that in actuality they won't qualify for and won't get.  I take this to mean, all FAQ's I read and other released docs, while well intentioned, can be "corrected" and "updated" due to mistakes, meaning Marriott can change anything they want.

Great3


----------



## DavidnRobin

Expecting a mass email distribution list to be completely accurate is probably setting one’s sights too high.

Similar to expecting perfect capitalization (over thinking…) of the word Benefit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Great3

DavidnRobin said:


> Expecting a mass email distribution list to be completely accurate is probably setting one’s sights too high.
> 
> Similar to expecting perfect capitalization (over thinking…) of the word Benefit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh, I 100% agree... I am just responding to the question if anybody with voluntary resale only, received the email, and just saying I did.  Meaning, too many people are trying to read between the lines and putting their guesses into it's meaning or making their "factual" inferences.  I am just saying the emails aren't targeted, and Marriott can mess up, which they already have.  I also learned a long time ago what a company executive says doesn't mean that's what the company IT that program the system does, and I may just end up with Abound, and many upset TUGGERs !!!! J/K, stirring up the pot, I know !!!  Flame Away!!!

In all seriousness, congrats to those who got into Abound without having to purchase anything, and hopefully without any require enrollment fees, if that's what you wanted.

Thanks,
Great3


----------



## tomvc

dioxide45 said:


> I would be pleased if correct, it would put us at Executive. If what I was thinking is correct, we would still just be Select based on our MVC ownerships.


I think you will be Executive.  Re-reading the Benefit Levels FAQ, it doesn't make sense if you substitute Owner in Owner benefit level for Select, Executive, Presidential or Chairman.


----------



## Ken555

Great3 said:


> Oh, I 100% agree... I am just responding to the question if anybody with voluntary resale only, received the email, and just saying I did. Meaning, too many people are trying to read between the lines and putting their guesses into it's meaning or making their "factual" inferences. I am just saying the emails aren't targeted, and Marriott can mess up, which they already have. I also learned a long time ago what a company executive says doesn't mean that's what the company IT that program the system does, and I may just end up with Abound, and many upset TUGGERs !!!! J/K, stirring up the pot, I know !!! Flame Away!!!
> 
> In all seriousness, congrats to those who got into Abound without having to purchase anything, and hopefully without any require enrollment fees, if that's what you wanted.
> 
> Thanks,
> Great3



FWIW, when I bought WMH resale years ago they gave me SOs and weren’t supposed to. After a year or so I clarified this with them and they agreed I wasn’t supposed to have it, but since I did for the first year they just kept me in the program. Ironically, ever since then each resort acknowledged me as a 3* owner, too. That stopped a few years after I gave away my WMH week. 

So… it’s possible they will make mistakes and honor them. Unlikely, but possible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## lily28

i own mandatory include harborside and voluntary.  i received 3 emails yesterday, one for harborside, one for because you are vsn member, and another email say this 

There’s never been a better time to join the Vistana Signature Network® (VSN). The VSN® is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program. Members of the VSN will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*

i assume the above email is for voluntary owners encourage owners to  join vsn


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> Expecting a mass email distribution list to be completely accurate is probably setting one’s sights too high.
> 
> Similar to expecting perfect capitalization (over thinking…) of the word Benefit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure I am overthinking it, just looking at it from a logical perspective, along with the stated verbiage, and given how VSN exists today. Do we really expect Marriott/Vistana to magically grant mandatory VSN owners 3*, 4* and 5* status? This change doesn't just happen in Abound. These new levels and benefits in VSN going forward too. So they are now placing mandatory resale and full developer on the same level.

THey did of course do this with MVC back in 2010, but resale owners did have to pay a much higher enrollment fee to join.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I'm not sure I am overthinking it, just looking at it from a logical perspective, along with the stated verbiage, and given how VSN exists today. Do we really expect Marriott/Vistana to magically grant mandatory VSN owners 3*, 4* and 5* status? This change doesn't just happen in Abound. These new levels and benefits in VSN going forward too. So they are now placing mandatory resale and full developer on the same level.
> 
> THey did of course do this with MVC back in 2010, but resale owners did have to pay a much higher enrollment fee to join.


There is no 3*, 4* or 5* status in VSN once Abound is in place - it just doesn’t exist. Each owner will be at a specific OBL and receive associated benefits based on the number of points in Abound or whether they were previously had * status in VSN.

My guess is new post-88 Mandatory owners would not get an OBL since they can’t elect for Abound points.  This would be similar to how VSN handles it by not counting towards status.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> There is no 3*, 4* or 5* status in VSN once Abound is in place - it just doesn’t exist. Each owner will be at a specific OBL and receive associated benefits based on the number of points in Abound or whether they were previously had * status in VSN.
> 
> My guess is new post-88 Mandatory owners would not get an OBL since they can’t elect for Abound points.  This would be similar to how VSN handles it by not counting towards status.


I think we are saying the same thing. I agree, there is no more 3*, 4* or 5* once everything goes to Abound. But Executive, Presidential and Chairman's are the equivalent in the overall program. So effectively if they grant unqualified mandatory owners the higher level statuses based on the number of Abound Club Points, they put them on par with full developer owners in both Abound and VSN.

I think one main determining factor in any decision Marriott made/makes, is that in the new program there are no a la cart fees. Many of which were reduced or waived for those VSN * Elite levels. Now in Abound the only difference is really just a few different dates and a few additional discounts for higher level OBLs. So allowing unqualified resales to be eligible for the Executive and above levels isn't really that big of a deal and it brings in more fee revenue.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> I did not realized a resale week could be converted to Bonvoy points. A few questions:
> - Why would you convert with the low conversion rate from a week to Bonvoy points? It does not make sense to me.
> - How many Bonvoy points did you get for your week?
> - Which week did you convert?
> - Does that mean you did not use or rent your week?
> - Do you just mean paying your MFs with the Bonvoy CC, not converting the week to Bonvoy points?


No conversion on resales.. Just use a credit card to pay MF to get 6x Bomvoy and Gold Elite. Now that we will have it with Abound would likely never use because converting to Abound points or VSN or renting is a better use.


----------



## remowidget

I hope my benefit from all of this as a retail customer is that complaining about the Mandatory dealio will get me my coupon for 12 free orders of shrimp tacos and out of the meeting faster.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

We went back to our sales rep at Lagunamar to show her our welcome letter to Abound. She told us a few days prior that we had to spend 11,000 to get into abound. She acted surprised and took a Screencast to show her manager. She said her training materials showed differently. She sounded genuine. Who knows. It is nice to have the option for abound


----------



## DanCali

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We went back to our sales rep at Lagunamar to show her our welcome letter to Abound. She told us a few days prior that we had to spend 11,000 to get into abound. She acted surprised and took a Screencast to show her manager. She said her training materials showed differently. She sounded genuine. Who knows. It is nice to have the option for abound



Not surprising she sounded genuine.  Did you expect her to tell you "Sorry, I had to try..."?

Salespeople have probably known the truth for months. She might even be the proud owner of one of these WKORVN weeks with the strikethroughs. Island View has never been this popular when it was just 148,100 Staroptions in SVN.... When you have inside info $13K-$14K for 6200 DC points at $3000 MFs is a no brainer...


----------



## kozykritter

Now that the launch is moved to late October, can you imagine 8 more weeks of these discussions on here?


----------



## wjarcher

DanCali said:


> Not surprising she sounded genuine.  Did you expect her to tell you "Sorry, I had to try..."?
> 
> Salespeople have probably known the truth for months. She might be the proud owner of one of these WKORVN weeks with the strikethroughs. Island View has never been this popular when it was just 148,100 Staroptions in SVN.... When you have inside info $13K-$14K for 6200 DC points at $3000 MFs is a no brainer...
> 
> View attachment 64008



This could just be due to the increased demand after COVID lockdowns are lifted.  The OV (13k -> 20k) and OF (20k -> 30k) have much higher price increases.   Not just Vistana ones, Marriotts Maui units and other popular destinations (e.g., Aruba) are much more expensive too.  Lots of the sales people I have interacted with own very few timeshare weeks/points (it is just a job for them), neither are they as knowledgeable as Tuggers.


----------



## DanCali

wjarcher said:


> This could just be due to the increased demand after COVID lockdowns are lifted.  The OV (13k -> 20k) and OF (20k -> 30k) have much higher price increases.   Not just Vistana ones, Marriotts Maui units and other popular destinations (e.g., Aruba) are much more expensive too.  Lots of the sales people I have interacted with own very few timeshare weeks/points (it is just a job for them), neither are they as knowledgeable as Tuggers.




That's a fair point. I have noticed an increase in demand for MVC's Newport Coast as well, but that was in Summer 2021, not Spring 2022...

Quite a few of the salespeople I interacted with actually talk to me about their (resale) ownership, especially on the Vistana side.

We'll never really know, but the spike in demand for Vistana mandatory weeks this year has been very unusual. Could be increased demand, could also be various speculative buying from tuggers, but also can't rule out just people with inside knowledge. Could be a combination of all...


----------



## byeloe

Maui is likely the only mandatory that was worth buying for Abound if you had inside info


----------



## DanCali

byeloe said:


> Maui is likely the only mandatory that was worth buying for Abound if you had inside info



I agree - especially the IV since it's lowest cost per point...

If you had "partial inside info" or were just speculating (e.g, mandatory will be in Abound, but don't know point allocations) you might be buying other stuff too like Maui OV or WKV.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Not surprising she sounded genuine.  Did you expect her to tell you "Sorry, I had to try..."?
> 
> Salespeople have probably known the truth for months. She might even be the proud owner of one of these WKORVN weeks with the strikethroughs. Island View has never been this popular when it was just 148,100 Staroptions in SVN.... When you have inside info $13K-$14K for 6200 DC points at $3000 MFs is a no brainer...
> 
> View attachment 64008


Could be why resale SVV also doubled in price the last few months. It seems all mandatory resorts went up on the resale market. Let’s see where it goes now.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I agree - especially the IV since it's lowest cost per point...
> 
> If you had "partial inside info" or were just speculating (e.g, mandatory will be in Abound, but don't know point allocations) you might be buying other stuff too like Maui OV or WKV.



What is MF per point for Maui OF, OV and IV?


----------



## timsi

It would be interesting  to know  how many units did not pass ROFR when Marriott knew exactly how much they were worth.


----------



## TravelTime

So it looks like MF is the same for 2BRs at WKOVRN. So that means the MF pp is a lot lower for OF than OV and IV. I think IV gets 6200 points and OF gets 8300 points. If so, the MF pp is approx $0.36 for OF and $0.48 for OV and more for IV (I am guessing it is another $0.12 pp or $0.60 or so pp, closer to trust cost pp). Many Tuggers say go with lower MF pp over lower upfront cost PP. There is about a $14,000-$18,000 difference in upfront costs from OF (assuming price of $29,000 to $32,000) vs IV (assuming price of $14,000 to $15,000) and a little less difference for OV. I guess someone else can calculate a break even point.


----------



## DonnaJ123

timsi said:


> It would be interesting  to know  how many units did not pass ROFR when Marriott knew exactly how much they were worth.


We made 2 different WKORVN OF offers about 1 year ago.  Both didn’t pass ROFR.  Both were offered at $25K each.  We paid substantially less for the 2 we own.


----------



## wallace37

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure why you think mandatory won't have Bonvoy conversion? It says it right here in the email we got last night;
> View attachment 63954


I don't know if I never noticed this before, but I saw this on my dashboard recently, unless this is something else.  I'm really not well versed in my ownership.


----------



## wjarcher

DanCali said:


> That's a fair point. I have noticed an increase in demand for MVC's Newport Coast as well, but that was in Summer 2021, not Spring 2022...
> 
> Quite a few of the salespeople I interacted with actually talk to me about their (resale) ownership, especially on the Vistana side.
> 
> We'll never really know, but the spike in demand for Vistana mandatory weeks this year has been very unusual. Could be increased demand, could also be various speculative buying from tuggers, but also can't rule out just people with inside knowledge. Could be a combination of all...



Sorry, I was not disputing your theory.  Another factor in the price increase for WKORV/N is that Vistana/Marriott has been very aggressive exercising ROFRs since late-2021.  I sold two IV weeks (I was switching my ownership to fixed 51/52 weeks) and both were taken by Marriott at 13k+.  I was selling the last IV week that I have and finally decided to keep it after the new Abound enrollment rule came out.


----------



## r1lee

I'm a late here, on a plane back from lagunamar. Went through so far 40 of the 47 pages during our flight home.

I got my email on the 31st. I have 2 resale  mandatory (wkv and svv) and this is the lower portion of the email.


----------



## MICROZE

wallace37 said:


> I don't know if I never noticed this before, but I saw this on my dashboard recently, unless this is something else.  I'm really not well versed in my ownership.


It has been this way for many years.
For Developer-Purchases [including retro] it is accurate.
The VSN-Site shows exactly the same info for both Direct-Purchases as well Mandatory-Resales [NON-Retro].

Vistana informed us that for resales; it is what we could receive if we had purchased "Direct" [or retro'd].
The resales did not count toward VSN-Status and could not elect Bonvoy [we would never convert anyway].


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> So it looks like MF is the same for 2BRs at WKOVRN. So that means the MF pp is a lot lower for OF than OV and IV. I think IV gets 6200 points and OF gets 8300 points. If so, the MF pp is approx $0.36 for OF and $0.48 for OV and more for IV (I am guessing it is another $0.12 pp or $0.60 or so pp, closer to trust cost pp). Many Tuggers say go with lower MF pp over lower upfront cost PP. There is about a $14,000-$18,000 difference in upfront costs from OF (assuming price of $29,000 to $32,000) vs IV (assuming price of $14,000 to $15,000) and a little less difference for OV. I guess someone else can calculate a break even point.


The MF on the Nanea we closed on last week is $4398 for 257700-SO which converts to 10900-Club-Points [$0.4035 pp].


----------



## robertk2012

Resale?  



MICROZE said:


> The MF on the Nanea we closed on last week is $4398 for 257700-SO which converts to 10900-Club-Points [$0.4035 pp].


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> The MF on the Nanea we closed on last week is $4398 for 257700-SO which converts to 10900-Club-Points [$0.4035 pp].



MF is high but MF per Abound point is fantastic.


----------



## TravelTime

Has anyone not gotten an email from Vistana? I own mandatory resale and I still have not gotten an email. Is the email from Vistana or Marriott?


----------



## DavidnRobin

TravelTime said:


> Has anyone not gotten an email from Vistana? I own mandatory resale and I still have not gotten an email. Is the email from Vistana or Marriott?



From…

vistanasignatureexperiences at email1.vistana dot com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric B

Based on the reported points, my SVV Bella 2 BR will be ~$0.47 per club point and my SVV KW 1 BR ~$0.44.  I’m pretty happy with those numbers for an Orlando resort that didn’t cost much.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

What is Marriott selling points for?


----------



## MICROZE

robertk2012 said:


> Resale?


No. Direct.

Vistana offered to swap all our Aventuras-Flex [~100K-SO] + 3 x 2BR-EOY-PLAT+ Lagunamar [~222K-SO NON-Deeded/RTU] + some cash.
It was an Even-Swap as far as Club-Points go. Exchanged 5 x Contracts [Mexico] for 1-Contract [Maui].
Not the best decision we made but glad to get rid of past mistakes.
Rationalized the extra cash we paid with better future Maui-Equity value.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> MF is high but MF per Abound point is fantastic.


Agree that MF is high.
However, 257700 gets us 12-Nights in a 2BR-OF at 12-Months in Nanea.
Hope to try for 12-Nights in a 2BR-OF at WKORVN at 8-Months.

If we can't use it, hope to try and rent a 2BR-OF Nanea July week via RedWeek for ~$1K/Night. That's about $12K return on a $4400-MF,


----------



## jlf58

!


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> So it looks like MF is the same for 2BRs at WKOVRN. So that means the MF pp is a lot lower for OF than OV and IV. I think IV gets 6200 points and OF gets 8300 points. If so, the MF pp is approx $0.36 for OF and $0.48 for OV and more for IV (I am guessing it is another $0.12 pp or $0.60 or so pp, closer to trust cost pp). Many Tuggers say go with lower MF pp over lower upfront cost PP. There is about a $14,000-$18,000 difference in upfront costs from OF (assuming price of $29,000 to $32,000) vs IV (assuming price of $14,000 to $15,000) and a little less difference for OV. I guess someone else can calculate a break even point.



IV and OV have the same point allocation, so same MF/point. If buying just for points, IV is a better option because of the lower upfront cost. 

The difference in upfront cost for OF is hard to justify based on 176,600 SOs vs 148,100 SOs, hard to justify by difference in rental value, and also hard to justify based on Abound points difference. The only way to justify it is a supply and demand argument, especially at WKORV where are the few OF units and enough buyers who want to guarantee that view.

To answer your question, given that the annual MFs are the same at WKORVN for all 2BR units then the difference is just getting an extra 2100 points/year for OF. Assuming you rent those extra 2100 points for $1400/year (0.67/point) then a difference of $18,000 in upfront cost would take 13 years to recover. That's a pretty long time, at least in my view.


----------



## r1lee

TravelTime said:


> Has anyone not gotten an email from Vistana? I own mandatory resale and I still have not gotten an email. Is the email from Vistana or Marriott?



Here you go.


----------



## timsi

Tucsonadventurer said:


> What is Marriott selling points for?


I think around $15 a point.


----------



## MICROZE

timsi said:


> I think around $15 a point.


It was $16.08 on Aug-30-2022.
Sales at Waikoloa predicted a rate-hike on Sep-01-2022.
Not sure what it is today.

However, Marriott always provides some discount off the listed-rate. Discount depends on what/how-much you buy + Incentives.


----------



## timsi

DonnaJ123 said:


> We made 2 different WKORVN OF offers about 1 year ago.  Both didn’t pass ROFR.  Both were offered at $25K each.  We paid substantially less for the 2 we own.





MICROZE said:


> It was $16.08 on Aug-30-2022.
> Sales at Waikoloa predicted a rate-hike on Sep-01-2022.
> Not sure what it is today.
> 
> However, Marriott always provides some discount off the listed-rate. Discount depends on what/how-much you buy + Incentives.



I would say not a bad deal to buy something for 25k and sell it for 132k minus some discounts. Did they know at the time that these deeds were going to be worth a lot of MVC points? 
They also bought a lot of Lagunamar inventory in the last two years. I always wondered why, then I saw the generous points allocation for WLR... but I guess it was just by chance.


----------



## MICROZE

timsi said:


> I would say not a bad deal to buy something for 25k and sell it for 132k minus some discounts. Did they know at the time that these deeds were going to be worth a lot of MVC points?
> They also bought a lot of Lagunamar inventory in the last two years. I always wondered why, then I saw the generous points allocation for WLR... but I guess it was just by chance.


Hi Tim,

I assume you are responding to my other post.

It was not as great a deal as we traded in a little more than what we got. Updated my post to reflect what we gave up.
However, sometimes we have to cut our losses [let go of past mistakes] and move on, which is why we decided to do it.


----------



## timsi

MICROZE said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> I assume you are responding to my other post.
> 
> It was not as great a deal as we traded in a little more than what we got. Updated my post to reflect what we gave up.
> However, sometimes we have to cut our losses [let go of past mistakes] and move on, which is why we decided to do it.


I was only referring to the price, 16 USD per point

I meant that if they knew the conversion value of a WKORVN OF, it was not a bad deal at all for Marriott to grab it with 25k and sell it for 132k minus discounts. Possibly that some of those who lost a deal due to ROFR may want to go back to Marriott and ask some questions and they may want to know what Marriott knew and when.  But I guess they did not know the value in MVC points of all the VOIs they were acquiring, and we just have to trust them with this, with the inventory and with everything else .


----------



## remowidget

...


----------



## luv_maui

So if I elect my 2023 VOI (resale WKORV prior to 8/9) for Abound points, this year only prior to 12/31/22 at below Presidential level, I can use my abound points through 12/31/2024?  And if where I want to go in Abound if I’m short say 1,000 points, what is the approx. market rate to rent?  If bought (not rental) 1,000 abound/ DC points, what is MF on 1,000 pts and would resale Points also move up my status if select level to exec level with all of the same benefits, including extended banking deadline.   and elite status to titanium if I bought enough resale points to presidential level?


----------



## DavidnRobin

I can see now why MVC members would not be happy with the flood of VSE members gaining Executive, Presidential and Chairman levels 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## remowidget

Here is the complete file of New Recognition Benefits.


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> I was only referring to the price, 16 USD per point
> 
> I meant that if they knew the conversion value of a WKORVN OF, it was not a bad deal at all for Marriott to grab it with 25k and sell it for 132k minus discounts. Possibly that some of those who lost a deal due to ROFR may want to go back to Marriott and ask some questions and they may want to know what Marriott knew and when.  But I guess they did not know the value in MVC points of all the VOIs they were acquiring, and we just have to trust them with this, with the inventory and with everything else .



To some degree, points allocation was not insider knowledge or something new to Marriott. They/we have known the points allocations for years since we have already been getting points allocations for similar enrolled MVC weeks. Many of us were already guesstimating what the points allocations would be for Vistana since we assumed it would map to similar MVC properties in similar locations.

I never heard anyone on TUG asking enrolled Marriott weeks owners how much they were getting for their weeks when they converted them to points. If people had asked this questions more often, we would have known 90% of the answers to this question for what Vistana weeks would be worth.

To me, the big surprises in this roll out were free enrollment for mandatory weeks, mapping of all points to the MVC benefits charts and auto upgrade to MVC levels, and loss of 2 years of banking for lower levels in Vistana. I think everything else feels like details. If I had had a crystal ball about free enrollment, I would have followed through on purchasing the second Vistana week that I was in process to purchase in 2021.


----------



## timsi

TravelTime said:


> To some degree, points allocation was not insider knowledge or something new to Marriott. They/we have known the points allocations for years since we have already been getting points allocations for similar enrolled MVC weeks. Many of us were already guesstimating what the points allocations would be for Vistana since we assumed it would map to similar MVC properties in similar locations.
> 
> I never heard anyone on TUG asking enrolled Marriott weeks owners how much they were getting for their weeks when they converted them to points. If people had asked this questions more often, we would have known 90% of the answers to this question for what Vistana weeks would be worth.
> 
> To me, the big surprises in this roll out were free enrollment for mandatory weeks, mapping of all points to the MVC benefits charts and auto upgrade to MVC levels, and loss of 2 years of banking for lower levels in Vistana. I think everything else feels like details. If I had had a crystal ball about free enrollment, I would have followed through on purchasing the second Vistana week that I was in process to purchase in 2021.



How many could have bought, sold, reshuffled or abstained from buying or selling had they had known for sure the details? Guesstimating and knowing for sure are two very different levels when it comes to a decision to buy, and incertitude can keep a lot of potential buyers on the sideline. I do not agree with you that it was common knowledge and several TUGGERS stated that they would have bought X or Y deed had they known. And if many Tuggers did not know, how about the general public which is what is important when you make the comparison between what Marriot DID know and what the public knew.


----------



## CPNY

I had an owners update today. I’ll just start by saying, if I ever make a developer purchase, it will be from this sales rep.

It started off with “are you familiar with executive level?” we looked at what I owned and I was being sold flex options to retro all of my units to get to to executive level.

problem with this was they didn’t have all of my units listed on the sales sheet. I told the sales rep about a unit that was never linked and not showing up on this sheet, even though I see it in my dashboard, it doesn’t come up in the “what I own” section. (For the first time the vistana merged account issue was about to play in my favor).

I pulled up my dashboard and showed her. She wrote down the contract number and went to pull it. She came back and said she doesn’t know why it’s not linked, there are no red flags with it and it should be linked.

I asked if it would change the sales sheet? Since this should now count and wouldn’t that get me over 7000 Club Points. Her expression changed and that said it all, it was like I took the wind out of the pitch (buy flex options to convert to CP to get executive). I asked if buying the package offered in addition to this rogue unlinked ownership would get me to presidential level, she said no it’s too far off. I also told her about another unit I bought on 8/19 and asked what would happen with that and she wasn’t sure.

the following exchange then happen, she started recalculating everything I owned and said:

Sales rep: “let’s just say hypothetically we do nothing today and these ownerships are magically included, you’ll be at executive……if I can be honest, just wait, don’t do anything now, you have great ownerships”.

Me: Smiling I said “I am reading between the lines”

Sales rep: “when did you buy that last one? Because there was a date that came out”

Me: I bought them all before August 9th, to be honest I got an email that said even though I bought resale, it will still have access to Abound.

With a huge smile she high fives me and said “that’s great I’d wait and when you need more you can always retro the one you bought on 8/19 and get to presidential. 

Another honest moment: I asked about converting to club points to bank and borrow and she said she knows you can bank but she’s not sure about borrowing from a future year, she said she didn’t want to make things up and tell me I can, she just doesn’t know. I was shocked she didn’t just run with it and say oh yes of course you can. It was refreshing to deal with someone honest.

In a nutshell it looks like unqualified mandatory resale units are in and will count toward various owner benefit levels.


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> How many could have bought, sold, reshuffled or abstained from buying or selling had they had known for sure the details? Guesstimating and knowing for sure are two very different levels when it comes to a decision to buy, and incertitude can keep a lot of potential buyers on the sideline. I do not agree with you that it was common knowledge and several TUGGERS stated that they would have bought X or Y deed had they known. And if many Tuggers did not know, how about the general public which is what is important when you make the comparison between what Marriot DID know and what the public knew.



I agree with one thing and I thought I said it before. If I would have known that we got free enrollment with a mandatory resale, I would have purchased the one I was going into escrow with last year. What I did know was more or less how many points it would be worth by looking at the enrolled Marriott weeks. 

It still might even make sense to buy a mandatory WKOVRN resale week with enrollment using a hybrid package. Low cost per point and low MFs and some other benefits depending on how you look at it. In the end, I do not actually need more points or status in Abound since I am Chairman’s level now. I also did not want to pay more MFs so I am fine that I did not buy it.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I agree with one thing and I thought I said it before. If I would have known that we got free enrollment with a mandatory resale, I would have purchased the one I was going into escrow with last year. What I did know was more or less how many points it would be worth by looking at the enrolled Marriott weeks.
> 
> It still might even make sense to buy a mandatory WKOVRN resale week with enrollment using a hybrid package. Low cost per point and low MFs and some other benefits depending on how you look at it. In the end, I do not actually need more points or status in Abound since I am Chairman’s level now. I also did not want to pay more MFs so I am fine that I did not buy it.


The sales rep today just told me that her manager bought two resale WKORN so they “musta known” lol


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> The sales rep today just told me that her manager bought two resale WKORN so they “musta known” lol



They probably knew about free enrollment and calculated the low MF/point.


----------



## CPNY

I


TravelTime said:


> They probably knew about free enrollment and calculated the low MF/point.


 agree, based off my update today, I came to that same conclusion


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> The sales rep today just told me that her manager bought two resale WKORN so they “musta known” lol


Other companies would have put rules in place to prevent cases like this.


----------



## TravelTime

timsi said:


> Other companies would have put rules in place to prevent cases like this.



What other companies have had this opportunity available and when?

I would not compare buying a timeshare with insider knowledge to trading stocks, in case that’s what you mean. 

The $ gain with insider knowledge of free enrollment of a mandatory week is pretty small so maybe that‘s why Marriott did not bother. It probably would have been a good idea though to put some rules in place for employees.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> Other companies would have put rules in place to prevent cases like this.


Idk about that. How can they? That’s like working for ford and ford not letting you buy a pre owned ford off Craigslist.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> They probably knew about free enrollment and calculated the low MF/point.



With good inside information, the more attractive part is the low upfront cost per point. I would much rather spend $14,000 on 6200 points (IV) than $32,000 on 8300 points (OF). Annual MFs would be the same (total cost, not per point)

Pretty much any weeks-based ownership has a lower MF/point that what Trust points have ($0.65) so you’re already winning on that front.

Really makes you wonder what kind of off-season weeks Marriott put in the Trust to get that kind of cost...


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## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> The sales rep today just told me that her manager bought two resale WKORN so they “musta known” lol



Were their lips moving?
I’ve heard variations of this BS when it comes to the resale market for years in some form or another. I consider it just another sales tactic to seem empathetic and knowledgeable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> Were their lips moving?
> I’ve heard variations of this BS when it comes to the resale market for years in some form or another. I consider it just another sales tactic to seem empathetic and knowledgeable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Normally I’d say yes however this sales person was the most honest I’ve ever encountered lol. We talked about resales and Why I shouldn’t buy anything now lol


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Normally I’d say yes however this sales person was the most honest I’ve ever encountered lol. We talked about resales and Why I shouldn’t buy anything now lol


I wonder if it is the same salesperson that told us that we were her only tour guests that day and she put makeup on just for us and how could we not buy...


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Normally I’d say yes however this sales person was the most honest I’ve ever encountered lol. We talked about resales and Why I shouldn’t buy anything now lol


Despite the reputation, there are some legit and honest sales reps out there. There is one at SDO who we’ve encountered a couple of times and he’s been a straight shooter. He originally told us that our mandatory resale would be included (this was in March). He owns 6 VOIs which he rents out (he showed us his account) - 3 WKV platinum and 3 Maui OF.


----------



## DavidnRobin

jabberwocky said:


> Despite the reputation, there are some legit and honest sales reps out there. There is one at SDO who we’ve encountered a couple of times and he’s been a straight shooter. He originally told us that our mandatory resale would be included (this was in March). He owns 6 VOIs which he rents out (he showed us his account) - 3 WKV platinum and 3 Maui OF.



I wasn’t claiming it wasn’t real - we have had ‘honest’ Sales people before showing their resale ownership, or their ‘Manager’ has them (and outright liars where they have stormed out of room when confronted - especially on their gorilla math).
The good ones usually release us early to get to the next fish.

What I meant was they use these well- known Sales tactics to garnish the appearance of knowledge, empathy and honesty.

Perfect example is my TUG buddy Chris (or other TUG buddies) saying if they were to buy - they would use this particular Sales person.

Sales Mission Accomplished!
Next!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Despite the reputation, there are some legit and honest sales reps out there. There is one at SDO who we’ve encountered a couple of times and he’s been a straight shooter. He originally told us that our mandatory resale would be included (this was in March). He owns 6 VOIs which he rents out (he showed us his account) - 3 WKV platinum and 3 Maui OF.


I know of ex Westin Kierland reps who pick off owners who want out, buy their VOIs for next to nothing then resell them as their own. They are all over redweek and my Facebook groups.


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I know of ex Westin Kierland reps who pick off owners who want out, buy their VOIs for next to nothing then resell them as their own. They are all over redweek and my Facebook groups.


Wow just wow!!!


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## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> I had an owners update today. I’ll just start by saying, if I ever make a developer purchase, it will be from this sales rep.
> 
> It started off with “are you familiar with executive level?” we looked at what I owned and I was being sold flex options to retro all of my units to get to to executive level.
> 
> problem with this was they didn’t have all of my units listed on the sales sheet. I told the sales rep about a unit that was never linked and not showing up on this sheet, even though I see it in my dashboard, it doesn’t come up in the “what I own” section. (For the first time the vistana merged account issue was about to play in my favor).
> 
> I pulled up my dashboard and showed her. She wrote down the contract number and went to pull it. She came back and said she doesn’t know why it’s not linked, there are no red flags with it and it should be linked.
> 
> I asked if it would change the sales sheet? Since this should now count and wouldn’t that get me over 7000 Club Points. Her expression changed and that said it all, it was like I took the wind out of the pitch (buy flex options to convert to CP to get executive). I asked if buying the package offered in addition to this rogue unlinked ownership would get me to presidential level, she said no it’s too far off. I also told her about another unit I bought on 8/19 and asked what would happen with that and she wasn’t sure.
> 
> the following exchange then happen, she started recalculating everything I owned and said:
> 
> Sales rep: “let’s just say hypothetically we do nothing today and these ownerships are magically included, you’ll be at executive……if I can be honest, just wait, don’t do anything now, you have great ownerships”.
> 
> Me: Smiling I said “I am reading between the lines”
> 
> Sales rep: “when did you buy that last one? Because there was a date that came out”
> 
> Me: I bought them all before August 9th, to be honest I got an email that said even though I bought resale, it will still have access to Abound.
> 
> With a huge smile she high fives me and said “that’s great I’d wait and when you need more you can always retro the one you bought on 8/19 and get to presidential.
> 
> Another honest moment: I asked about converting to club points to bank and borrow and she said she knows you can bank but she’s not sure about borrowing from a future year, she said she didn’t want to make things up and tell me I can, she just doesn’t know. I was shocked she didn’t just run with it and say oh yes of course you can. It was refreshing to deal with someone honest.
> 
> In a nutshell it looks like unqualified mandatory resale units are in and will count toward various owner benefit levels.


What resort are you at now?


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## CPNY

dsmrp said:


> What resort are you at now?


SVV


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> Normally I’d say yes however this sales person was the most honest I’ve ever encountered lol. We talked about resales and Why I shouldn’t buy anything now lol


Your salesperson did not appear to know much about what you had.
Good that the salesperson was honest, however, what value is there in anything the salesperson said if they are clueless about the nuances of the 2 systems.
Seems like the salesperson learnt more from meeting you than the other way around.

I have made this mistake at many presentations. I need to speak less and listen more.
I tend to lead them and then walkaway satisfied with what I heard "them agreeing with what I wanted them to say".

Happened to us at this weeks presentation at Waikoloa.
I asked if we "post-merger would we have 2 accounts or one?"

The salesperson was a note-taker and did not know much despite working since 2015 so the supervisor was answering most questions.
The supervisor confirmed that there would be a SINGLE Combined-Account.
I expressed disappointment that we would lose the benefit of my wife being "Platinum" via VSN 5-Star-Elite. We didn't need Triple-Chairman with +55K-Club-Points.
Since I am already "Titanium" via MVC-Chairmans-Club, we were looking forward to her being "Titanium via VSN as predicted by Marriott sales at a past presentation.
She excused herself and came back later informing me that I was right and we would indeed have 2-Accounts.
I was so pleased that I was right and that Marriott had just reaffirmed that I would have a benefit I was looking for.

Later when I read the FAQ's I realized that I was wrong and there would be a single Combined-Account.
In reality she was right the first time and only changed her message to align with me to please me and avoid an argument.
She was quite knowledgeable and willing to change her message to align with me.
I walked out all happy that I just heard everything I needed to hear [which was everything I said echoed back to me].

BTW: I have a workaround. for the 2 x Accounts.
Hope it's not too complex or expensive.

Plan to remove myself from the VSN-Deeds [35K-Club-Points] and remove wife from the MVC-Deeds [+20K Club-Points] and maintain 2 x Accounts with 2 x Chairmans with 2 x Titanium.


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## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> SVV


Thx.  Understandably, the Florida sales reps don't look down on the Florida SVV and SVR VOIs as much as the Westin sales do   
We have a stay at WDW in a few weeks. I'm curious what Sales there will tell me about my VOIs. I think they can only sell me DC/Abound pts, not that we're interested.


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## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Your salesperson did not appear to know much about what you had.
> Good that the salesperson honest, however, what value is there in anything the salesperson said if they are clueless about the nuances of the 2 systems.
> Seems like the salesperson learnt more from meeting you than the other way around.
> 
> I have made this mistake at many presentations. I need to speak less and listen more.
> I tend to lead them and then walkaway satisfied with what I heard "them agreeing with what I wanted them to say".
> 
> Happened to us at this weeks presentation at Waikoloa.
> I asked if we "post-merger would we have 2 accounts or one?"
> 
> The salesperson was a note-taker and did not know much despite working since 2015 so the supervisor was answering most questions.
> The supervisor confirmed that there would be a SINGLE Combined-Account.
> I expressed disappointment that we would lose the benefit of my wife being "Platinum" via VSN 5-Star-Elite. We didn't need Triple-Chairman with +55K-Club-Points.
> Since I am already "Titanium" vis MVC-Chairmans-Club, we were looking forward to her being "Titanium vis VSN as predicted by Marriott sales at a past presentation.
> She excused herself and came back later informing me that I was right and we would indeed have 2-Accounts.
> I was so pleased that I was right and that Marriott had just reaffirmed that I would have a benefit I was looking for.
> 
> Later when I read the FAQ's I realized that I was wrong and there would be a single Combined-Account.
> In reality she was right the first time and only changed her message to align with me to please me and avoid an argument.
> She was quite knowledgeable and willing to change her message to align with me.
> I walked out all happy that I just heard everything I needed to hear [which was everything I said echoed back to me].
> 
> BTW: I have a workaround. for the 2 x Accounts.
> Hope it's not too complex or expensive.
> 
> Plan to remove myself from the VSN-Deeds [35K-Club-Points] and remove wife from the MVC-Deeds [+20K Club-Points] and maintain 2 x Accounts with 2 x Chairmans with 2 x Titanium.


No she knew full well what I had and what was eligible. She stated that based on everything I had now (after showing her my phantom ownership she didn’t see) that I’d be at executive when it rolls out. She told me to sit tight. She knew a lot more than she said. I honestly don’t think they care about nuances. They are trying to get sales based on where I’m at now and where I can Be. It’s the same story. Sell people on the next level. I can’t tell you how many sales pitches included trying to get me to 3star elite as the way to get me to sign. It’s why she started off with “what do you know about executive level”. She thought that’s where I would be IF I bought more flex. Once I told her about another mandatory that’s not showing up and she verified it, her whole angle was blown.

with that being said, it’s time to move onto the next owner, she told me to sit tight I’m good.


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## CPNY

I do


dsmrp said:


> Thx.  Understandably, the Florida sales reps don't look down on the Florida SVV and SVR VOIs as much as the Westin sales do
> We have a stay at WDW in a few weeks. I'm curious what Sales there will tell me about my VOIs. I think they can only sell me DC/Abound pts, not that we're interested.


I don’t think their numbers would lie. Westin can look down on the lower MF Sheraton ownerships all day. In the end star options are star options. After WKV, the next best ownership in the vistana system is the SVV.


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## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> I do
> 
> I don’t think their numbers would lie. Westin can look down on the lower MF Sheraton ownerships all day. In the end star options are star options. After WKV, the next best ownership in the vistana system is the SVV.



Also - should include WKORV OFC in this. Not OFD due to disproportionate MFs as compared to OFC. While pricey to buy - the MF/SO for OFC is excellent and Abound point value is also good.
In addition, the OFC studio side has a balcony unlike the other 2Bd Premium layouts and adds 90sqft to the layout. For MF/SO and SqFt/MF - OFC has best value at WKORV (south and north)

Also - on Bubble would be WSJ-VGV Plat+ villas due to good MF/SO value - especially the 3Bd pool villas and the 1Bd villas (because those only exist in VGV phase) for those that are looking for those sizes and okay with fixed weeks.


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> Also - should include WKORV OFC in this. Not OFD due to disproportionate MFs as compared to OFC. While pricey to buy - the MF/SO for OFC is excellent and Abound point value is also good.
> In addition, the OFC studio side has a balcony unlike the other 2Bd Premium layouts and adds 90sqft to the layout. For MF/SO and SqFt/MF - OFC has best value at WKORV (south and north)
> 
> Also - on Bubble would be WSJ-VGV Plat+ villas due to good MF/SO value - especially the 3Bd pool villas and the 1Bd villas (because those only exist in VGV phase) for those that are looking for those sizes and okay with fixed weeks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree especially on those WSJ plat pool villas.


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## CalGalTraveler

Other than OFC, are there any other studios in the south which have a lanai?


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## DavidnRobin

CalGalTraveler said:


> Other than OFC, are there any other studios in the south which have a lanai?



Just the Deluxe layouts, but the MFs are hefty - I own one (OFD) and okay with it because it has a 270 degree view - better layout, and much better lighting (both sides) than OFC. But costly - maybe highest in VSN. The OV/IV Deluxe in Building 4 only comes with 148.1K SOs (vs 176.6K for OFD).


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## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> I agree especially on those WSJ plat pool villas.



If one has the capital to spare - the OFC offers great value and fantastic location especially if you could sale for as much (or more) than purchased - during the 2009/10 recession they dropped as low as $28K. Almost bought.

Also during recession - 3Bd Plat+ WSJ-VGV dropped to the low teens (saw a week 4 for $11K once).


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> If one has the capital to spare - the OFC offers great value and fantastic location especially if you could sale for as much (or more) than purchased - during the 2009/10 recession they dropped as low as $28K. Almost bought.
> 
> Also during recession - 3Bd Plat+ WSJ-VGV dropped to the low teens (saw a week 4 for $11K once).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow 11k… I would have thought about it. Do we know how many CPs the virgin grand units are getting


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## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> Wow 11k… I would have thought about it. Do we know how many CPs the virgin grand units are getting



I would have if we didn’t live in NorCal.
Plus be more inclined to use Abound for the Caribbean.

I don’t know any 3Bd Plat+ pool owners have done an update. 
I would imagine the most in the VSN Mandatory VOIs. Hard to figure another one with more.


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> I would have if we didn’t live in NorCal.
> Plus be more inclined to use Abound for the Caribbean.
> 
> I don’t know any 3Bd Plat+ pool owners have done an update.
> I would imagine the most in the VSN Mandatory VOIs. Hard to figure another one with more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The platinum week gets the most Star Options. I still stand by my future plan to own there if its hard to book via VSN or now Abound. It’s worth the MF IMO


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## TravelTime

For us, there is really nowhere we go to regularly so that is another reason I like Abound. I like the ease and convenience of exchanging. Personally, I think cost pp is reasonable and I am not interested in chasing every last dollar.

For me, the weekly price is reasonable since my MF makes the cost about half whatever the point value is. Even 8000 points to go to Maui is only about $4000 for a week staying in an oceanfront 2BR unit in a prime week. We are doing this next spring during Easter week since that is when our kids get spring break. 

To be honest, I hate spending 8000 points for a week but it is what it is. I am using my WKOVRN OF for one week and a MOC Napili/Lahaina OF for the second week.

For Ritz STT, a week is only $2000 for a 2BR and almost all the units are OF/OV. The owners pay $5000 a week but they get the high floors.


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> What I meant was they use these well- known Sales tactics to garnish the appearance of knowledge, empathy and honesty.
> 
> Perfect example is my TUG buddy Chris (or other TUG buddies) saying if they were to buy - they would use this particular Sales person.
> 
> Sales Mission Accomplished!
> Next!


But isn’t that the mark of a good sales person? Build trust, be a resource, be truthful, appear to solve a problem or need etc. I’d rather buy from someone that I trust than someone who seems slimy.

I’ve been to other presentations with reps that were terrible. When you challenge the rep they become defensive, angry, and absolutely rude. Those people I would never go to again, nor would I recommend them to someone who is looking to buy retail.

This rep appeared honest, wasn’t trying to sell something I didn’t need, and when she didn’t have an answer she got up and asked a manager for more clarification. That’s all I can ask for in a sales person. She ended the presentation telling me not to buy anything when she realized the angle would no longer work. She didn’t get rude and try to lie to save the sale as some have done in the past. She could have lied and said I had to retro but she didn’t. For those reasons I’d deal with her.

Let’s face it, if I were to ever make a developer purchase it would be for very specific reasons as some tuggers have done in the past. If a developer purchase was on the table for something, I would have done my research and really wouldn’t need to be “sold”. I’d need a sales rep to facilitate the sale. That’s when I’d go back to her. I’d tell her what I wanted and why, I’d have her draw up the paperwork and sign the contract. With that being said and assuming my resales are included, I’m 99% certain I’d never make another developer purchase.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> Your right to book in your home resort period should be unaffected, and this portion of the rules you've cited isn't being violated. When owners elect for Abound points, they transfer their exclusive right to reserve in the home resort period to the Abound exchange.  That owner can then book anything within the exchange - so you still have the same amount of competition.  Similarly, because the exchange now has the exclusive right to reserve a home week, they can do so.
> 
> The transfer of a right doesn't reduce overall availability. I think the salespeople have done too good of a job in selling this reduced availability story and some are buying it.


Can you please tell us the rules that specify that when you transfer a week to an exchange, you transfer your rights to reserve during the *home priority period*? This is news to me and actually quite the contrary to the rules. What you probably want to say is that when you deposit a week into an exchange you transfer your right  to book a week *during the season you own*, that's it! Your deposit  cannot compete with the the resort owners during the home resort priority period, this is what the priority is all about.


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## dioxide45

timsi said:


> Can you please tell us the rules that specify that when you transfer a week to an exchange, you transfer your rights to reserve during the *home priority period*? This is news to me and actually quite the contrary to the rules. What you probably want to say is that when you deposit a week into an exchange you transfer your right  to book a week *during the season you own*, that's it! Your deposit  cannot compete with the the resort owners during the home resort priority period, this is what the priority is all about.


This is what the *Abound by Marriott Vacations Exchange Procedures document* says about a member assigning their rights to Abound when they elect Club Points;

_When an Exchange Member or VSN Member Deposits a Use Period with Exchange Company, such Exchange Member or VSN Member, as applicable, assigns and Exchange Company will automatically have all of such Exchange Member’s or VSN Member’s rights to reserve and use such Use Period for the given Use Year. Once such Use Period has been Deposited with Exchange Company, it may not be withdrawn._


----------



## echino

Let's say you own WKORV resale and deposit next year's week into Abound. Now Abound has control of that week and can reserve any week they choose, just like an owner would. The question is how Abound is going to make those reservations. I highly doubt that an employee would sit at a computer at midnight to quickly click and snag a high demand week like other owners do. They could just reserve any week they want, using a script, exactly at midnight, before any of the actual owners have a chance.


----------



## dioxide45

echino said:


> Let's say you own WKORV resale and deposit next year's week into Abound. Now Abound has control of that week and can reserve any week they choose, just like an owner would. The question is how Abound is going to make those reservations. I highly doubt that an employee would sit at a computer at midnight to quickly click and snag a high demand week like other owners do. They could just reserve any week they want, using a script, exactly at midnight, before any of the actual owners have a chance.


I suspect since you also grant Abound your rights as an owner/member, Abound could make a reservation in VSN instead. I give them my SVV VOI, they can only use it to reserve SVV between 12-8 months out, but they could also use it to make a VSN reservation that is inside eight.


----------



## CPNY

Doesn’t every deed have an underlying week attached to it? Just deposit that week and it will be fair game.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> This is what the *Abound by Marriott Vacations Exchange Procedures document* says about a member assigning their rights to Abound when they elect Club Points;
> 
> _When an Exchange Member or VSN Member Deposits a Use Period with Exchange Company, such Exchange Member or VSN Member, as applicable, assigns and Exchange Company will automatically have all of such Exchange Member’s or VSN Member’s rights to reserve and use such Use Period for the given Use Year. Once such Use Period has been Deposited with Exchange Company, it may not be withdrawn._


Thank you for your comment, Vistana and Abound can make up whatever rule they want but those who deposit in Abound cannot transmit rights they do not possess and that are in clear violation of the rights of the other owners *and *the existing resort rules. The rule does not even attempt to explain how it addresses the conflict or that it cancels the home priority rule and frankly it is sloppy work to still keep all the existing resort and Vistana rules on your website and come with new rules, that are in clear contradiction with your rules, if interpreted the way some  want to interpret. If this is their defense, I am even more confident that it will be resolved to our satisfaction.

Edited to add for those that missed the other post, this is the resort rule I am referring to:
“4.2.1 Required Reservation Periods.

There must be at least one “Home Reservation Period”. The Home Reservation Period must permit a VOI Owner to request a reservation,* without competition from anyone who does not own a Vacation Ownership Interest for a Vacation Unit *that is the same type and season as the VOI Owner’s unit type and season provided that nobody else has reserved the Vacation Period and that no other persons have the exclusive right to reserve the Vacation Period. The Home Reservation Period must last at least sixty (60) days"


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Doesn’t every deed have an underlying week attached to it? Just deposit that week and it will be fair game.


Every deed does, but it is possible that, since most resorts have floating weeks, the actual week that is on the deed is already reserved by someone else.


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Every deed does, but it is possible that, since most resorts have floating weeks, the actual week that is on the deed is already reserved by someone else.


well, if the week is available that’s the week that should be brought into the exchange.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Every deed does, but it is possible that, since most resorts have floating weeks, the actual week that is on the deed is already reserved by someone else.



From what I understand, the attached week means nothing in practical terms. I asked about that when I purchased my first deeded week.


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> well, if the week is available that’s the week that should be brought into the exchange.


Come on Chris, they could have done somehing that and ask the Vistana owners to first book their home resort then deposit in Abound but Marriott does not want that, they just want to play with the inventory like with the pizza dough.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> From what I understand, the attached week means nothing in practical terms. I asked about that when I purchased my first deeded week.


It doesn’t, it’s just an inventory measure when they sold the weeks. They need to list it on a deed.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> Come on Chris, they could have done somehing that and ask the Vistana owners to first book their home resort then deposit in Abound but Marriott does not want that, they just want to play with the inventory like with the pizza dough.


We could have booked the worst weeks and they would have hated that lol.


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> We could have booked the worst weeks and they would have hated that lol.


This is how the Marriott week deposits work in Interval if I understand correctly. You book and you deposit a specific week so it is not like Marriott does not understand that possibility, they just though they would not be in the driver's seat. The most convenient option for Marriot is that they chose  whatever week they want and give it to the bucket they choose.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> This is how the Marriott week deposits work in Interval if I understand correctly. You book and you deposit a specific week so it is not like Marriott does not understand that possibility, they just though they would not be in the driver's seat. The most convenient option for Marriot is that they chose  whatever week they want and give it to the bucket they choose.


But what’s the difference between me booking a week and giving it to abound or Marriott picking a week and putting it into abound?

If I book week 13 in my home resort and use the week, rent the week, deposit the week in interval, or convert to Abound it’s one less week 13 for another to use. What’s the difference if I pick the week or Marriott picks the week for Abound? I understand with vistana you don’t need to reserve a week and deposit it into interval, vistana picks the week for you. This is no different for Abound. Instead of Marriott selecting the week for interval, they are selecting it for Abound exchange instead.

Whenever an owner books a week in their home resort period, there is one less week for another owner who hasn’t made a reservation yet.

im looking at things from a different perspective I guess. I own mostly SVV and never book my home period at my home resort so I understand your frustration.


----------



## timsi

CPNY said:


> But what’s the difference between me booking a week and giving it to abound or Marriott picking a week and putting it into abound?
> 
> If I book week 13 in my home resort and use the week, rent the week, deposit the week in interval, or convert to Abound it’s one less week 13 for another to use. What’s the difference if I pick the week or Marriott picks the week for Abound? I understand with vistana you don’t need to reserve a week and deposit it into interval, vistana picks the week for you. This is no different for Abound. Instead of Marriott selecting the week for interval, they are selecting it for Abound exchange instead.
> 
> Whenever an owner books a week in their home resort period, there is one less week for another owner who hasn’t made a reservation yet.
> 
> im looking at things from a different perspective I guess. I own mostly SVV and never book my home period at my home resort so I understand your frustration.


The difference is that, as a resort owner YOU booked the week and it does not come in contradiction to the resort rules.


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> The difference is that, as a resort owner YOU booked the week and it does not come in contradiction to the resort rules.


So what about Flex then? Technically the trust owns the deed. By your logic a Flex owner can’t book that week 8-12 months out because they aren’t the directly the owner.


----------



## CPNY

timsi said:


> The difference is that, as a resort owner YOU booked the week and it does not come in contradiction to the resort rules. If I book a week and I rent it, it does not come in contradiction with the resort rules. When Marriott does that for you it is something else.


But Marriott is doing it because we told them to.

This has always been the case with Starwood Vacation Ownership and then with Vistana when it comes to interval.

In interval right now I can see check in date for SDO for 7/30/2023. That’s 10 months…well within the home reservation period.


----------



## echino

The major difference is when you book the week and then deposit it, you compete with other owners for your home resort reservation on equal basis. When Abound selects the week for you to deposit, they may play games, such as pick any week they want, such as a peak demand week, without competition from other owners. This takes away from owners' ability to reserve prime weeks in a major way.


----------



## timsi

echino said:


> The major difference is when you book the week and then deposit it, you compete with other owners for your home resort reservation on equal basis. When Abound selects the week for you to deposit, they may play games, such as pick any week they want, such as a peak demand week, without competition from other owners.


Precisely. Aside from that, we should not discuss what they did *not* do, but what they did and how what they did violates their own rules. The trouble is that Marriott is trying to convince everyone that is fair while not posting the actual inventory rules. The evasiveness does not play to their advantage.


----------



## dioxide45

echino said:


> The major difference is when you book the week and then deposit it, you compete with other owners for your home resort reservation on equal basis. When Abound selects the week for you to deposit, they may play games, such as pick any week they want, such as a peak demand week, without competition from other owners. This takes away from owners' ability to reserve prime weeks in a major way.


YOu can also be sure that Abound is going to take their week every time. A home resort owner may not reserve their week, or wait until 10 months or 9 months to make the reservation. The problem with Abound is that an owner can actually elect Club Points up to 25 months prior to the use year.


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## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> YOu can also be sure that Abound is going to take their week every time. A home resort owner may not reserve their week, or wait until 10 months or 9 months to make the reservation. The problem with Abound is that an owner can actually elect Club Points up to 25 months prior to the use year.


Yes, this is the point I tried to make a week or two ago.  When you compete with other owners in the home resort period, only a subset of those owners will actually book during the home resort period, and many of them won't book until later in the period.  So those who are ready to book at 12 months, or anywhere close to it, will almost always get what they want.  But with Abound, I think we can be pretty sure that 100% of the VOIs assigned to Abound will automatically book at exactly 12 months.  That's going to impact availability for weeks owners, I fear.  At the least it will make it essential to book home resort usage right at 12 months exactly.


----------



## dsmrp

timsi said:


> Can you please tell us the rules that specify that when you transfer a week to an exchange, you transfer your rights to reserve during the *home priority period*? This is news to me and actually quite the contrary to the rules. What you probably want to say is that when you deposit a week into an exchange you transfer your right  to book a week *during the season you own*, that's it! Your deposit  cannot compete with the the resort owners during the home resort priority period, this is what the priority is all about.





timsi said:


> Thank you for your comment, Vistana and Abound can make up whatever rule they want but those who deposit in Abound cannot transmit rights they do not possess and that are in clear violation of the rights of the other owners *and *the existing resort rules. The rule does not even attempt to explain how it addresses the conflict or that it cancels the home priority rule and frankly it is sloppy work to still keep all the existing resort and Vistana rules on your website and come with new rules, that are in clear contradiction with your rules, if interpreted the way some  want to interpret. If this is their defense, I am even more confident that it will be resolved to our satisfaction.
> 
> Edited to add for those that missed the other post, this is the resort rule I am referring to:
> “4.2.1 Required Reservation Periods.
> 
> There must be at least one “Home Reservation Period”. The Home Reservation Period must permit a VOI Owner to request a reservation,* without competition from anyone who does not own a Vacation Ownership Interest for a Vacation Unit *that is the same type and season as the VOI Owner’s unit type and season provided that nobody else has reserved the Vacation Period and that no other persons have the exclusive right to reserve the Vacation Period. The Home Reservation Period must last at least sixty (60) days"





timsi said:


> Come on Chris, they could have done somehing that and ask the Vistana owners to first book their home resort then deposit in Abound but Marriott does not want that, they just want to play with the inventory like with the pizza dough.





timsi said:


> Precisely. Aside from that, we should not discuss what they did *not* do, but what they did and how what they did violates their own rules. The trouble is that Marriott is trying to convince everyone that is fair while not posting the actual inventory rules. The evasiveness does not play to their advantage.



You are discussing the same topic, potential violation of owner's home resort period reservation rights, in 2 different threads.  You created this one, for that purpose:








						Abound has been created. Now what for the unqualified Vistana voluntary weeks?
					

Unlike the voluntary VOIs, the mandatory resale VOIs have not been offered anything to mitigate the losses that arise from the creation of Abound, primarily the infringement of the right to enjoy without competition exclusive priority during the home reservation period. I looked at the documents...




					tugbbs.com
				




Could you please keep your discussion to the thread you created?
thank you


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> So what about Flex then? Technically the trust owns the deed. By your logic a Flex owner can’t book that week 8-12 months out because they aren’t the directly the owner.


Flex is very different than Abound and I will let you analyze the differences and how external exchangers have access to one but not to the other. and if the flex owners are truly home owners. At least flex is a finite quantity at any given time and an owner at Marriott Phuket in Thailand cannot exchange into your home resort during the home reservation period.  Your question is like telling someone  that if his wife can drive his  car, why can't everyone else do it because it is the same thing.

Two wrongs do not make one right, if you are trying to ask if flex is also in violation of the rules, and Abound is really at complete  new level.


----------



## TravelTime

The Vistana threads are becoming so exhausting. People keep repeating themselves. I have never seen such circular reasoning on TUG. I understand people are upset but there is really nothing that can be done. The only constant is change.

My advice is to figure out how to maximize the new system just like you figured out how to maximize the old one. Timeshare systems will always change. Heck, everything in life is constantly changing. It is like saying no one should ever be fired if they adhere to their contract. That just is not realistic.

If you really do not like the new system, then why not sell your week and be done with it. That was going to be my plan if I did not like the new system. Life is too short to hate what you have.


----------



## timsi

TravelTime said:


> The Vistana threads are becoming so exhausting. People keep repeating themselves. I have never seen such circular reasoning on TUG. I understand people are upset but there is really nothing that can be done. The only constant is change.
> 
> My advice is to figure out how to maximize the new system just like you figured out how to maximize the old one. Timeshare systems will always change. Heck, everything in life is constantly changing. It is like saying no one should ever be fired if they adhere to their contract. That just is not realistic.
> 
> If you really do not like the new system, then why not sell your week and be done with it. That was going to be my plan if I did not like the new system. Life is too short to hate what you have.


I hope this is not the kind of advice you offer your friends about their marriages or none of your friends would be married if they listened to you.


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> Flex is very different than Abound and I will let you analyze the differences and how external exchangers have access to one but not to the other. and if the flex owners are truly home owners. At least flex is a finite quantity at any given time and an owner at Marriott Phuket in Thailand cannot exchange into your home resort during the home reservation period.  Your question is like telling someone  that if his wife can drive his  car, why can't everyone else do it because it is the same thing.
> 
> Two wrongs do not make one right, if you are trying to ask if flex is also in violation of the rules, and Abound is really at complete  new level.


But the principle is still the same. Flex is the actual owner of the week and the RIGHT to use that week is transferred to the Flex owner when they go to book the week in the home resort period. It’s the same thing here. The owner of the week transfers the right to someone with Abound points to book the week in the home resort period.

Whether it is Abound, Flex or deeded weeks, the result is the same. There are a finite number of weeks. The key difference is that the number of points required to book a week is dynamic in the sense that higher demand weeks require a higher number of points. We aren’t going to have a bunch of WKV owners swapping a Plat week for a WKORV week as we now have in VSN. The Abound system isn’t set up that way.

Suppose WKORVN OF week owner puts their week into Abound and gets 8325 points. Can the owner of a Phuket week actually book an OF week which costs 9450? No, they won’t have enough points. They would have to trade 2-3 weeks work of points (depending on how much they get for their week). This helps balance out the overall demand. Many Abound owners will find it too expensive to use straight points at WKORVN unless they have cheap MF/pt enrolled weeks.

Are we going to see people booking peak weeks for rentals using Abound?  Probably not.  If you are using straight Abound trust points it will cost over $6500 to grab that week based on either MF or a conservative points rental value.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> I hope this is not the kind of advice you offer your friends about their marriages or none of your friends would be married if they listened to you.


If one of my friends whined to me endlessly with the same complaints, day in and day out, threatening to sue their spouse and constantly telling me how unfair they were....I'd likely give the same advice.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> But the principle is still the same. Flex is the actual owner of the week and the RIGHT to use that week is transferred to the Flex owner when they go to book the week in the home resort period. It’s the same thing here. The owner of the week transfers the right to someone with Abound points to book the week in the home resort period.
> 
> Whether it is Abound, Flex or deeded weeks, the result is the same. There are a finite number of weeks. The key difference is that the number of points required to book a week is dynamic in the sense that higher demand weeks require a higher number of points. We aren’t going to have a bunch of WKV owners swapping a Plat week for a WKORV week as we now have in VSN. The Abound system isn’t set up that way.
> 
> Suppose WKORVN OF week owner puts their week into Abound and gets 8325 points. Can the owner of a Phuket week actually book an OF week which costs 9450? No, they won’t have enough points. They would have to trade 2-3 weeks work of points (depending on how much they get for their week). This helps balance out the overall demand. Many Abound owners will find it too expensive to use straight points at WKORVN unless they have cheap MF/pt enrolled weeks.
> 
> Are we going to see people booking peak weeks for rentals using Abound?  Probably not.  If you are using straight Abound trust points it will cost over $6500 to grab that week based on either MF or a conservative points rental value.



When in doubt, you go back to the rules and the rules are clear, non-owners cannot access inventory during the home reservation period. No matter how you flip it, those that would be given access to the Lagunamar inventory to book their EXCHANGES through Abound during the home reservation period are *not* owners at Lagunamar and this is against the resort rules. I am pretty sure many if not most or all other voluntary resorts have similar if not identical verbiage that keeps the exchangers away during the home reservation period. You can make an argument all you want about how YOU see similarities with Flex, but the differences are striking in terms of ownership base and exchange capabilities, and we are not talking about Flex  but about Abound. I guess you want the whole hand (Abound) when given the finger or just the nail (Flex). 

No, I do not have to "suppose" what and exchanger has to pay when booking WKORVN, if it is against the resort rules to be given access to the WKORVN during the home reservation period. Don't mix cost with access, we can talk about what is the fair cost to exchange into WKORVN *after *the home reservation period ends, since that's when the reservation period for exchangers  should start (assuming WKORVN has similar resort rules).


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> When in doubt, you go back to the rules and the rules are clear, non-owners cannot access inventory during the home reservation period. No matter how you flip it, those that would be given access to the Lagunamar inventory to book their EXCHANGES through Abound during the home reservation period are *not* owners at Lagunamar and this is against the resort rules. I am pretty sure many if not most or all other voluntary resorts have similar if not identical verbiage that keeps the exchangers away during the home reservation period. You can make an argument all you want about how YOU see similarities with Flex, but the differences are striking in terms of ownership base and exchange capabilities, and we are not talking about Flex  but about Abound. I guess you want the whole hand (Abound) when given the finger or just the nail (Flex).
> 
> No, I do not have to "suppose" what and exchanger has to pay when booking WKORVN, if it is against the resort rules to be given access to the WKORVN during the home reservation period. Don't mix cost with access, we can talk about what is the fair cost to exchange into WKORVN *after *the home reservation period ends, since that's when the reservation period for exchangers  should start (assuming WKORVN has similar resort rules).


I’m not going to let you off easy on this one. You keep wanting to ignore the central question by claiming owners have rights, but those rights cannot be legally transferred to others. 

Just answer one simple question:

Is a person who owns Flex a deeded owner of the underlying resort?


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> When in doubt, you go back to the rules and the rules are clear, non-owners cannot access inventory during the home reservation period. No matter how you flip it, those that would be given access to the Lagunamar inventory to book their EXCHANGES through Abound during the home reservation period are *not* owners at Lagunamar and this is against the resort rules. I am pretty sure many if not most or all other voluntary resorts have similar if not identical verbiage that keeps the exchangers away during the home reservation period. You can make an argument all you want about how YOU see similarities with Flex, but the differences are striking in terms of ownership base and exchange capabilities, and we are not talking about Flex  but about Abound. I guess you want the whole hand (Abound) when given the finger or just the nail (Flex).


As usual, you only point out and highlight the rules convenient to whatever diatribe you are on at the moment.  Multiple people have posted over and over again the specific rules that give MVC and VSN the right to anticipate exchange usage and allocated inventory as they see fit into the exchange programs.  You've cried foul at how arbitrary and unfair this language is (and how dare MVC not provide us with the precise process by which they allocate inventory), but it's in the adopted rules and the management contracts agreed to by the Board of each individual resort and been in use for decades (as regards II and over a decade as regards MVC on the DP/weeks side).  I'm sure next you'll be complaining about how MVC controls the Board and it's all rigged.  You've started a whole separate thread about your wild interpretation of the rules, whether they are legal, how they violate your individual interpretation of the CCRs and other constituent documents.  We get it, you feel slighted.  Put your money where your mouth is and sue MVC for all their supposed violations of your rights.  Let us know how it all goes.....


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> I’m not going to let you off easy on this one. You keep wanting to ignore the central question by claiming owners have rights, but those rights cannot be legally transferred to others.
> 
> Just answer one simple question:
> 
> Is a person who owns Flex a deeded owner of the underlying resort?


Since you are a Flex owner not me, you have to make a determination whether you are comfortable with the product you own and if it does come into conflict  with existing rules and be prepared if the product is also challenged one day. I can tell you that many owners, are not comfortable with the idea of owning a Flex product.  Flex however is not an exchange but Abound is. Flex owners claim they are owners of what they own. Abound is an exchange that borrows rights depositors don't have.  There are fundamental differences between a flex owner and an exchanger and just because one can be accepted or tolerated it does not mean everything goes. 

Your comment is exhibit A why owners should advocate for following the rules as they are, even if they do not impact them directly, otherwise Marriott can make a mockery of every rule.


----------



## kozykritter

Ignore, people, ignore! The chance for changing misinformation has clearly evaporated in this situation


----------



## jabberwocky

timsi said:


> Since you are a Flex owner not me, you have to make a determination whether you are comfortable with the product you own and if it does come into conflict  with existing rules and be prepared if the product is also challenged one day. I can tell you that many owners, are not comfortable with the idea of owning a Flex product.  Flex however is not an exchange but Abound is. Flex owners claim they are owners of what they own. *Abound is an exchange that borrows rights depositors don't have.*  There are fundamental differences between a flex owner and an exchanger and just because one can be accepted or tolerated it does not mean everything goes.
> 
> Your comment is exhibit A why owners should advocate for following the rules as they are, even if they do not impact them directly, otherwise Marriott can make a mockery of every rule.


It’s a lot of words for what should be a simple yes or no question. 

I think the bold part is telling. Why do the owners who deposit not have the right to make a home resort reservation in the 8-12 month period? 

Yes, I own Flex, but I’ve never been under the illusion that I have a deeded week. Yet somehow I have the right to book in the 8-12 month home resort period.

Abound is made up of both an exchange (like II) as well as a trust (like Flex). The Abound trust holds underlying deeds - so the comparison is very relevant and provides a precedent.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> As usual, you only point out and highlight the rules convenient to whatever diatribe you are on at the moment.  Multiple people have posted over and over again the specific rules that give MVC and VSN the right to anticipate exchange usage and allocated inventory as they see fit into the exchange programs.  You've cried foul at how arbitrary and unfair this language is (and how dare MVC not provide us with the precise process by which they allocate inventory), but it's in the adopted rules and the management contracts agreed to by the Board of each individual resort and been in use for decades (as regards II and over a decade as regards MVC on the DP/weeks side).  I'm sure next you'll be complaining about how MVC controls the Board and it's all rigged.  You've started a whole separate thread about your wild interpretation of the rules, whether they are legal, how they violate your individual interpretation of the CCRs and other constituent documents.  We get it, you feel slighted.  Put your money where your mouth is and sue MVC for all their supposed violations of your rights.  Let us know how it all goes.....


Those are Abound rules and cannot affect those that are not Abound members and cannot come in contradiction with the resort rules. They do not even claim they overrule the resort rules and that can only be interpreted that they still have to take them into consideration, as they are written.   The  "rules" you mention are so vague that cannot even be called rules, more like  vague claims they can do whatever they want with the inventory, which should be troubling in itself. They basically claim monarchic powers with the inventory which is weakening their case of fair dealing with the inventory. They can anticipate and allocate any inventory they want, but that has to refer to the period when their right to do it starts, and that is  *AFTER* the end of the home reservation period.


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> It’s a lot of words for what should be a simple yes or no question.
> 
> I think the bold part is telling. Why do the owners who deposit not have the right to make a home resort reservation in the 8-12 month period?
> 
> Yes, I own Flex, but I’ve never been under the illusion that I have a deeded week. Yet somehow I have the right to book in the 8-12 month home resort period.
> 
> Abound is made up of both an exchange (like II) as well as a trust (like Flex). The Abound trust holds underlying deeds - so the comparison is very relevant and provides a precedent.


Flex is not Abound. If you want Flex to be challenged by the same resort rule, I do not see what you gain and it does not make the external exchange named Abound right. Each case has to be judged by its own features.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> Those are Abound rules and cannot affect those that are not Abound members and cannot come in contradiction with the resort rules. They do not even claim they overrule the resort rules and that can only be interpreted that they still have to take them into consideration, as they are written.   The  "rules" you mention are so vague that cannot even be called rules, more like  vague claims they can do whatever they want with the inventory, which should be troubling in itself. They basically claim monarchic powers with the inventory which is weakening their case of fair dealing with the inventory. They can anticipate and allocate any inventory they want, but that has to refer to the period when their right to do it starts, and that is  *AFTER* the end of the home reservation period.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Ignore, people, ignore! The chance for changing misinformation has clearly evaporated in this situation



Glad I made that choice myself.  There comes a point when interacting is draining - if I feel a need for that I’ll go read the COVID forum.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


>


You can laugh all you want, you should also change the "buy where you want to go" mantra because you are advocating for the resort owners to lose their rights in favor of the exchangers.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> Those are Abound rules and cannot affect those that are not Abound members and cannot come in contradiction with the resort rules. They do not even claim they overrule the resort rules and that can only be interpreted that they still have to take them into consideration, as they are written.   The  "rules" you mention are so vague that cannot even be called rules, more like  vague claims they can do whatever they want with the inventory, which should be troubling in itself. They basically claim monarchic powers with the inventory which is weakening their case of fair dealing with the inventory. They can anticipate and allocate any inventory they want, but that has to refer to the period when their right to do it starts, and that is  *AFTER* the end of the home reservation period.


It's in the VSN rules (which is precisely the inventory that is going into Abound, which legally is just another External Exchange Program).  As usual you just cherry pick whatever (mis)information you feel like pumping here. In addition, it's clear it starts after the *BEGINNING *of the home reservation period.

*Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Marriott Bonvoy Program Exchanges*_. Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Marriott Bonvoy Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request._


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> I think the bold part is telling. Why do the owners who deposit not have the right to make a home resort reservation in the 8-12 month period?



The owners have the right to make a home resort reservation in the 8-12 months but they do not do it, they just deposit into Abound. And once they do that, the exchangers that take over that week do not have the right to compete with the owners that still have unbooked VOIs at the resort since it is disallowed by the home resort period rule.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> It's in the VSN rules (which is precisely the inventory that is going into Abound, which legally is just another External Exchange Program).  As usual you just cherry pick whatever (mis)information you feel like pumping here. In addition, it's clear it starts after the *BEGINNING *of the home reservation period.
> 
> *Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Marriott Bonvoy Program Exchanges*_. Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Marriott Bonvoy Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request._


The Lagunamar resort rules specify when the Bulk banking can be done, it can be done *"from time to time"* which means infrequently so not daily, weekly or whatever they are doing with Abound. The bulk banking rule is  in place to give some leftovers to interval "from time to time" not to abuse it and build a whole new exchange with 10%, 30% or 90% of the Vistana prime  inventory or  whatever they claim they can do weekly  and in their "sole discretion" . As far as I can tell, Vistana never abused the rule and it made bulk deposits into Interval infrequently and at random dates, sometimes just once or twice a year. It applied its "sole discretion" prudently.

Also, as you can see even the VSN rules mention they only have the right to do it "from time to time" which means "occasionally but not regularly" according to the Collins dictionary in case we do not agree on the meaning of  "from time to time" .


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> The Lagunamar resort rules specify when the Bulk banking can be done, it can be done *"from time to time"* which means infrequently so not daily, weekly or whatever they are doing with Abound.


Again, save it for your other thread or challenge MVC in court.  "From time to time" may not be legally interpreted in the way you've described it from whatever online dictionary you've looked it up in.  Regardless, perhaps they only do it "from time to time" as necessary to balance the inventory between Abound and VSN. Repeatedly you act like MVC takes all these weeks for their own use; they are not.  They are only taking enough inventory to balance VSN owners who have elected Abound points with those Abound owners who want to trade into VSN.



timsi said:


> As far as I can tell, Vistana never abused the rule and it made bulk deposits into Interval infrequently and at random dates, sometimes just once or twice a year. It applied its "sole discretion" wisely.


I thought it didn't matter what was done in the past or whether or not VSN/MVC abused the rules in the past?  That's what you've posted over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again whenever anyone pointed out that MVC gained these same rights when they launched the DP program and the fear of "abuse" was largely not realized.  Yes, the ability is there....IT'S IN THE RULES...whether they abuse them or not is still to be seen.

[Leave space here for wild conjecture and speculation by timsi as to why this is all different and we should all cry foul]


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> Regardless, perhaps they only do it "from time to time" as necessary to balance the inventory between Abound and VSN.


Or "perhaps" that is not what they intend to do, or even practical to do since they already announced boldly it will happen weekly.


----------



## CPNY

echino said:


> The major difference is when you book the week and then deposit it, you compete with other owners for your home resort reservation on equal basis. When Abound selects the week for you to deposit, they may play games, such as pick any week they want, such as a peak demand week, without competition from other owners.


Don’t they do this currently for Interval? Inventory is held back to meet the anticipated demand for the exchange program. Yes we know Marriott can and most likely will put the best weeks into the abound exchange when an owner elects. Don’t blame Marriott, urge owners not to convert and that will eliminate that issue.


ocdb8r said:


> As usual, you only point out and highlight the rules convenient to whatever diatribe you are on at the moment.  Multiple people have posted over and over again the specific rules that give MVC and VSN the right to anticipate exchange usage and allocated inventory as they see fit into the exchange programs.  You've cried foul at how arbitrary and unfair this language is (and how dare MVC not provide us with the precise process by which they allocate inventory), but it's in the adopted rules and the management contracts agreed to by the Board of each individual resort and been in use for decades (as regards II and over a decade as regards MVC on the DP/weeks side).  I'm sure next you'll be complaining about how MVC controls the Board and it's all rigged.  You've started a whole separate thread about your wild interpretation of the rules, whether they are legal, how they violate your individual interpretation of the CCRs and other constituent documents.  We get it, you feel slighted.  Put your money where your mouth is and sue MVC for all their supposed violations of your rights.  Let us know how it all goes.....


I agree with you, Ive read through the CCR’s for the mandatory resorts I owned and this verbiage has been in the there as you say, for years. My question is, when was the inventory taken for the anticipated demand? Was it taken at 8 months to put into Interval? Was it 10? I have no argument here from a home resort period since I use my VOI’s as staroptions or II traders.

My hope is I can still use the VSN at 8 months for whatever I’ve been able to in the past. If I can no longer do that because of the amount of people going into Abound, then I’ll adjust my strategy and move on. My biggest fear with Abound was Marriott no including mandatory resale owners in unless we made a new purchase, only to be left into a dried up VSN. Since it seems that Marriott is not doing that at all, I am very pleased with how we all think the program is going to work.


----------



## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> Or "perhaps" that is not what they intend to do, or even practical to do since they already announced boldly it will happen weekly.


Any inventory available will be opened for reservations in Abound "weekly" as that's how the Marriott system releases availability.  That doesn't mean that MVC won't batch move inventory INTO Abound at whatever intervals (from time to time) as it sees fit....they system is rather complex and maybe best that some just divest and don't participate given the complexity.



CPNY said:


> My question is, when was the inventory taken for the anticipated demand? Was it taken at 8 months to put into Interval? Was it 10? I have no argument here from a home resort period since I use my VOI’s as staroptions or II traders.


...from "time to time".     I don't think we've tried to track this specifically as bulk banking in II has thus far seemed to be rather random.  Sometimes nearly a year in advance, sometime only months.



CPNY said:


> Yes we know Marriott can and most likely will put the best weeks into the abound exchange when an owner elects. Don’t blame Marriott, urge owners not to convert and that will eliminate that issue.


Again, I don't disagree that this is possible....but I just don't see what motivation MVC would have to do this (and this has not been observed from resorts initially sold as "weeks" only in the MVC side of things).  They want to satisfy as many owners as possible (and I would argue that means exclusive VSN owners as well).  Not all owners will have sufficient points for the "best weeks" and there are likely a LOT of differing views as to what constitutes the "best" weeks - while the relative demand gives you some clue, clearly there are plenty of people happy to go to the resorts in lower demand seasons for whatever reasons.  OVERALL owner satisfaction is what sells points....the more people boasting about how wonderful the program is, the better (which means a variety of weeks will be needed on both sides).  I just fail to see:

1) what MVC has to gain by grossly marginalizing VSN for the benefit of Abound;
2) why they would take all the "best" VSN weeks when there will likely be demand from Abound owners for a variety of types of weeks;
3) how "grossly" they can tip the scales when they need VSN owners to elect points to get access to VSN inventory (and everyone has been ripe to point out they don't believe anyone except Hawaii owners get reasonable Abound points to make that election.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Is a person who owns Flex a deeded owner of the underlying resort?


Technically, yes. They own a small slice of a corporation or trust that owns that resort. Same as owning a REIT. Flex isn't an exchange, it is deeded ownership.


----------



## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> I thought it didn't matter what was done in the past or whether or not VSN/MVC abused the rules in the past?  That's what you've posted over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again whenever anyone pointed out that MVC gained these same rights when they launched the DP program and the fear of "abuse" was largely not realized.  Yes, the ability is there....IT'S IN THE RULES...whether they abuse them or not is still to be seen.
> 
> [Leave space here for wild conjecture and speculation by timsi as to why this is all different and we should all cry foul]



It is not me speculating whether Marriott abused the rules in the past or not, it is you who speculates. You do not know how they divided the inventory and if they gave proportional representation to each bucket or used any other formula or no formula at all based on other business considerations that were the most advantageous *for Marriott* at the time. As we speak you cannot tell me what the actual MVC rules are, if they are the same or different than 12 years ago  or what will the Abound rules be regarding the bulk deposits an how each week of the calendar placed in Abound  will affect the other buckets. All you could see was some inventory at 12 or 13 months in your bucket in MVC without knowing the number of units and why. You also did not see the inventory Marriott blocked to rent so that you could make a correct determination if what was left for the owners was fair indeed. Because on your limited visibility, it is you speculating that they dealt fairly with the inventory.


----------



## Venter

Disclaimer: Most Vistana and newer MVC owners will have no idea what the next sentence will reference to.

This feels like the good old days back in 2010 when Perry still used to frequent these boards.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Technically, yes. They own a small slice of a corporation or trust that owns that resort. Same as owning a REIT. Flex isn't an exchange, it is deeded ownership.


But their name is not on the deed itself which is what you need to have if you are to reach the conclusion that another member is reaching based on their partial reading of documents. The trust conveys the rights associated with ownership. The view being espoused by a certain member is that the rights cannot be package or transferred in any form.


----------



## ocdb8r

Venter said:


> Disclaimer: Most Vistana and newer MVC owners will have no idea what the next sentence will reference to.
> 
> This feels like the good old days back in 2010 when Perry still used to frequent these boards.


Agreed.  But these new people even give Perry a run for his money.  I've finally succumbed and hit the ignore feature.  I've concluded some of these very new members are MVC plants....sent here to make such outlandish, baseless and confused claims that any reasonable person cannot do anything but feel the need to defend MVC.  IT WORKED!  Look at me...I've become an MVC apologizer!  

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!


----------



## ocdb8r

So, on to more interesting topics that this thread was supposed to be focused on...

Have we seen anything about the following (apologies if I missed it in all the mess):

Has MVC said anything specific about IT related things...like are they maintaining a separate Vistana website?  It seems like the "back-end" systems are slowly merging over the last many months (reservation number changes...etc), but I don't see anything official as part of the Abound launch nor do I recall anything being mentioned on the investor relations calls;
Anything official about whether the II "preference" for trading will be "merged" such that our VSN weeks will seek MVC weeks at the same time as MVC owners (and vice-versa)?
I know it has been stated "election" Abound points will be permitted through the end of this year (a one-off as a result of launch); have we heard anything about extended banking deadlines for StarOptions or Abound points?


----------



## sail27bill

I own both Marriott and Vistana and I won some, I lost some.  It is what it is.  I am annoyed that my Harborside developer purchase isn't allowed in yet (or may never be).  I am annoyed that resale mandatory units were allowed in for free when I paid developer prices.  I am annoyed that I have to make sure to book immediately for Marriott as now potentially Vistana owners are competing against my point interests for the best weeks.  I lost the ability to bank Vistana options for two years.  I could go on and on.  But free II exchanges between the two and guaranteed platinum bonvoy status for me versus earning it every year is a plus.   Change happens and I will adjust.  So will all of you. Any new facts? Because it is getting too hard to keep up with all the conspiracy theories floating around.


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> So, on to more interesting topics that this thread was supposed to be focused on...
> 
> Have we seen anything about the following (apologies if I missed it in all the mess):
> 
> Has MVC said anything specific about IT related things...like are they maintaining a separate Vistana website?  It seems like the "back-end" systems are slowly merging over the last many months (reservation number changes...etc), but I don't see anything official as part of the Abound launch nor do I recall anything being mentioned on the investor relations calls;


Marriott Vacations has indicated that they plan to move off of legacy applications and toward a unified digital product. I expect at some point one single owner website will be used for all reservations



ocdb8r said:


> Anything official about whether the II "preference" for trading will be "merged" such that our VSN weeks will seek MVC weeks at the same time as MVC owners (and vice-versa)?


It hasn't been mentioned. But I actually think they may keep the existing Priority Period + Preference period. Meaning Vistana has priority into Vistana for x days followed by a preference period where Marriott can trade into Vistana. The same for Marriott to Marriott and Vistana to Marriott. I don't know for a fact, but I suspect this is what they will do to try and protect original weeks owner rights.



ocdb8r said:


> I know it has been stated "election" Abound points will be permitted through the end of this year (a one-off as a result of launch); have we heard anything about extended banking deadlines for StarOptions or Abound points?


2023 can already be banked into 2024 by June 30, 2023. So no need to extent that. StarOption banking deadline is past for all but high level Vistana Elite. I don't expect that to change. They never said anything about it other than the election deadline being extended till 12/31/2022.


----------



## remowidget

echino said:


> Let's say you own WKORV resale and deposit next year's week into Abound. Now Abound has control of that week and can reserve any week they choose, just like an owner would. The question is how Abound is going to make those reservations. I highly doubt that an employee would sit at a computer at midnight to quickly click and snag a high demand week like other owners do. They could just reserve any week they want, using a script, exactly at midnight, before any of the actual owners have a chance.


That's a great question.  I suspect that the week that was transferred will be available in Abound, and will be bookable anytime it would have been bookable to the original owner in VSN. I doubt Abound will take a specific week. It would explain how Abound can book at 12 months.


----------



## remowidget

kozykritter said:


> Ignore, people, ignore! The chance for changing misinformation has clearly evaporated in this situation


I'm so glad I ignored a few users. Now it shows that I am ignoring the quoted comment. I simply scroll on by the answer as well.


----------



## alexadeparis

Venter said:


> Disclaimer: Most Vistana and newer MVC owners will have no idea what the next sentence will reference to.
> 
> This feels like the good old days back in 2010 when Perry still used to frequent these boards.


And this new replacement fomenter is going to get blocked like Perry did too


----------



## dioxide45

alexadeparis said:


> And this new replacement fomenter is going to get blocked like Perry did too


IIRC, Perry was banned from the forums for repeatedly shilling his own ebook, webinar and website that essentially praised the new program he railed against for at least a year.


----------



## Alwaystravelling

ocdb8r said:


> Agreed....I think one plus (unless I've misunderstood something) is that mandatory weeks owners that owned prior to 8/9 that don't opt out of Abound will now be able to include their mandatory weeks values towards elite levels, even if those mandatory weeks were "unqualified" resale purchases.  I think there's likely to be a fair share of tuggers who bought mandatory weeks resale solely for VSN access that may now end up with some elite benefits to boot!


That's me.   Bought 7 platinum usages at Vistana Bella and Key West.   Barely invested for $20k in the whole thing.


----------



## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> So, on to more interesting topics that this thread was supposed to be focused on...
> 
> Have we seen anything about the following (apologies if I missed it in all the mess):
> 
> Has MVC said anything specific about IT related things...like are they maintaining a separate Vistana website?  It seems like the "back-end" systems are slowly merging over the last many months (reservation number changes...etc), but I don't see anything official as part of the Abound launch nor do I recall anything being mentioned on the investor relations calls;
> Anything official about whether the II "preference" for trading will be "merged" such that our VSN weeks will seek MVC weeks at the same time as MVC owners (and vice-versa)?
> I know it has been stated "election" Abound points will be permitted through the end of this year (a one-off as a result of launch); have we heard anything about extended banking deadlines for StarOptions or Abound points?


I was briefly showed some website that had a bunch of tiles of what you can do with club points. From reservations, to events, airline miles conversions etc. It looked easy to use at least.

Again, this was a sales presentation so who knows, but I was told this would be the new site that I’d have access to and my CP’s would show up in the site once elected. She didnt know if it was replacing or going to be accessed through the Vistana site or if it was actually going to be a separate log in.

I didn’t push for more info on the IT aspects because it’s Marriott and unless they took what they acquired from Vistana and applied it to Abound, I have little faith it’s it’s seamless operation.


----------



## M Wyo

Recently had an (Vistana) owner update “aka” sales presentation.  We did some homework and reviewed the Abound info on the website.   We own Platinum Plus Desert Willow (148,100 annual star options) and Sheraton Flex (95,700 annual star options) Making us 3 Star Elite.  We were told this would translate to 6485 club points and was promptly given an offer to by something that translates to 650 additional club points so we could achieve Executive level (7000) in Abound/MVC world.  But wait, the documentation states  3-star elites “will be grandfathered to Abound Owner level Executive - or higher”.   They disgreed, push backed, said We “declined” grandfathering, and were unable to reconcile our status when presented with the quote about grandfathering.  Note, we never declined anything, and not sure why anyone would ever decline grandfathering.
That said…this was a sales presentation.  It was shocking that if we didn’t do our homework we could be more inclined to purchase points reach executive level.  More shocking when I called  Vistana owner services they verified our grandfather to  Executive level but refused to confirm it in an email.
So beware….make sure you understand what and why you are buying.  You may very well know more about Abound than the sales staff.


----------



## remowidget

M Wyo said:


> Recently had an (Vistana) owner update “aka” sales presentation.  We did some homework and reviewed the Abound info on the website.   We own Platinum Plus Desert Willow (148,100 annual star options) and Sheraton Flex (95,700 annual star options) Making us 3 Star Elite.  We were told this would translate to 6485 club points and was promptly given an offer to by something that translates to 650 additional club points so we could achieve Executive level (7000) in Abound/MVC world.  But wait, the documentation states  3-star elites “will be grandfathered to Abound Owner level Executive - or higher”.   They disgreed, push backed, said We “declined” grandfathering, and were unable to reconcile our status when presented with the quote about grandfathering.  Note, we never declined anything, and not sure why anyone would ever decline grandfathering.
> That said…this was a sales presentation.  It was shocking that if we didn’t do our homework we would be more inclined to reach executive level.  More shocking when I called  Vistana owner services they verified our grandfather to  Executive level but refused to confirm it in an email.
> So beware….make sure you understand what and why you are buying.  You may very well know more about Abound than the sales staff.


----------



## M Wyo

Exactly…..I showed them the table and STILL got the “deer in headlights“ gaze.


----------



## Red elephant

M Wyo said:


> Recently had an (Vistana) owner update “aka” sales presentation.  We did some homework and reviewed the Abound info on the website.   We own Platinum Plus Desert Willow (148,100 annual star options) and Sheraton Flex (95,700 annual star options) Making us 3 Star Elite.  We were told this would translate to 6485 club points and was promptly given an offer to by something that translates to 650 additional club points so we could achieve Executive level (7000) in Abound/MVC world.  But wait, the documentation states  3-star elites “will be grandfathered to Abound Owner level Executive - or higher”.   They disgreed, push backed, said We “declined” grandfathering, and were unable to reconcile our status when presented with the quote about grandfathering.  Note, we never declined anything, and not sure why anyone would ever decline grandfathering.
> That said…this was a sales presentation.  It was shocking that if we didn’t do our homework we would be more inclined to reach executive level.  More shocking when I called  Vistana owner services they verified our grandfather to  Executive level but refused to confirm it in an email.
> So beware….make sure you understand what and why you are buying.  You may very well know more about Abound than the sales staff.


I would report them to customer  advocacy department.


----------



## Rinse82

Apologies if I missed this as I scoured across some of the threads, but is there an easy way to guesstimate what our SO's are worth in terms of Club points?

EDIT: I'm blind, just saw the conversion tracker thread.


----------



## luv_maui

They’re still selling WKORV, wkorvn and Nanea home options, here in Maui.  Better MFs than points but would sell us points if we wanted.  Stated only a couple more weeks to buy deeded weeks.


----------



## Jblub

luv_maui said:


> They’re still selling WKORV, wkorvn and Nanea home options, here in Maui.  Better MFs than points but would sell us points if we wanted.  Stated only a couple more weeks to buy deeded weeks.


What do those weeks sell for direct?  Would be a good option to lock in lower MFs.


----------



## luv_maui

Jblub said:


> What do those weeks sell for direct?  Would be a good option to lock in lower MFs.


$88,800 - 2br WKORV
$84,560 - 2 br wkorvn OV
$72,154 - Westin Nanea 2 br resort view
$90,685 - Westin Nanea 3br OF EOY


----------



## DavidnRobin

luv_maui said:


> $88,800 - 2br WKORV
> $84,560 - 2 br wkorvn OV
> $72,154 - Westin Nanea 2 br resort view
> $90,685 - Westin Nanea 3br OF EOY



    
That is ridiculous!!!

Was this in writing?

Yep - better lock those prices in!

Up 50% from their initial cost - they weren’t lying when they told me to buy during the initial sales period.
And only $60-70K more than resale!
 

I wonder if it was a Sales Ploy to make it look at whatever BS they are selling to look better?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kozykritter

I think we need another round of vaguely-worded Abound information from Vistana so we have more to speculate on


----------



## divenski

timsi said:


> All you could see was some inventory at 12 or 13 months in your bucket in MVC without knowing the number of units and why. You also did not see the inventory Marriott blocked to rent so that you could make a correct determination if what was left for the owners was fair indeed. Because on your limited visibility, it is you speculating that they dealt fairly with the inventory.



True, our visibility is limited, but it is the case that individual MVC owners are able to reserve high demand weeks. Just look at all the good weeks for rent by owner at the usual sites.


----------



## DanCali

DavidnRobin said:


> That is ridiculous!!!
> 
> Was this in writing?
> 
> Yep - better lock those prices in!
> 
> Up 50% from their initial cost - they weren’t lying when they told me to buy during the initial sales period.
> And only $60-70K more than resale!
> 
> 
> I wonder if it was a Sales Ploy to make it look at whatever BS they are selling to look better?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Abound actually makes this an easier sell. They can pitch is as "cheaper points" where you get 6200 DC points for $85,000 ($13/point vs $16+/point list price) and MFs of $0.50/point vs $0.65. 

So, depending on your view, you can either see this as a great deal or view Trust points for the terrible deal that they are. But this is a better deal than pure points on most fronts, with the possible exception of the resale value of the week vs. 6200 DC points in today's prices.


----------



## GregT

luv_maui said:


> $88,800 - 2br WKORV
> $84,560 - 2 br wkorvn OV
> $72,154 - Westin Nanea 2 br resort view
> $90,685 - Westin Nanea 3br OF EOY


These prices are stunning - and 2X for a 3BR vs a 2BR?   That’s just crazy.   Our first 3BR at MOC was 20% higher (in 2007) when we bought direct.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> That is ridiculous!!!
> 
> Was this in writing?
> 
> Yep - better lock those prices in!
> 
> Up 50% from their initial cost - they weren’t lying when they told me to buy during the initial sales period.
> And only $60-70K more than resale!
> 
> 
> I wonder if it was a Sales Ploy to make it look at whatever BS they are selling to look better?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Vistana sells to a different buyer. One that usually isn't aware of the resale market. They wouldn't make any money selling at resale prices.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Abound actually makes this an easier sell. They can pitch is as "cheaper points" where you get 6200 DC points for $85,000 ($13/point vs $16+/point list price) and MFs of $0.50/point vs $0.65.
> 
> So, depending on your view, you can either see this as a great deal or view Trust points for the terrible deal that they are. But this is a better deal than pure points on most fronts, with the possible exception of the resale value of the week vs. 6200 DC points in today's prices.



If they do not sell weeks anymore (with a few exceptions), then how can they pitch weeks as cheaper points?


----------



## GabrielSmith

I own a resale WKORV. It’s a mandatory resort. It was purchased back in 2018.  Am I eligible to bank my staroptions for club points being an unauthroized resale? Or am I only allowed to reserve in the Vistana network?


----------



## kozykritter

GabrielSmith said:


> I own a resale WKORV. It’s a mandatory resort. It was purchased back in 2018.  Am I eligible to bank my staroptions for club points being an unauthroized resale? Or am I only allowed to reserve in the Vistana network?


Banking is a feature of the VSN. Since you receive StarOptions as part of your mandatory enrollment in the VSN, you can bank them now and in the future. That isn't changing.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana sells to a different buyer. One that usually isn't aware of the resale market.* They wouldn't make any money selling at resale prices.*


And they would have to build new resorts. That would be terrible, too much work!


----------



## Eric B

GabrielSmith said:


> I own a resale WKORV. It’s a mandatory resort. It was purchased back in 2018.  Am I eligible to bank my staroptions for club points being an unauthroized resale? Or am I only allowed to reserve in the Vistana network?


To use your points in Abound, you would convert them in the year prior to the use year.  There is no banking involved as it doesn’t extend them beyond the use year they are in.  You should be able to convert your WKORV week to Abound club points since you acquired it in 2018.

You can also either bank either the SOs if not converted or the club points if converted to make them usable in the year after their use year, longer if you own more eligible points.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> If they do not sell weeks anymore (with a few exceptions), then how can they pitch weeks as cheaper points?



First off, they do sell weeks in Aruba, St. Kitts, and Spain where the usage is RTU rather than deeded. Thise can be pitches as "cheap points"

Second, they are clearly still selling Maui weeks...

Lastly, I believe they will continue to sell whatever you want as long as you buy some points alongside it (aka the "Hybrid bundles"). It's not their first offer, but they sometimes pull it out of their back pocket if you complain about the high point MFs.









						MVC Hybrid Plan
					

Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding. My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> First off, they do sell weeks in Aruba, St. Kitts, and Spain where the usage is RTU rather than deeded. Thise can be pitches as "cheap points"
> 
> Second, they are clearly still selling Maui weeks...
> 
> Lastly, I believe they will continue to sell whatever you want as long as you buy some points alongside it (aka the "Hybrid bundles"). It's not their first offer, but they sometimes pull it out of their back pocket if you complain about the high point MFs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MVC Hybrid Plan
> 
> 
> Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding. My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Weeks sold as part of Hybrid/Bundle are weeks that are for sale through the Marriott Resale Department. These aren't weeks they have on their own books, those go into the Trust. As noted, the only weeks they are selling are international (Costa Rica) in addition to the ones you mentioned. I am pretty sure Asia Pacific, Bali and Australia are point based out of Asia Pacific.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> Weeks sold as part of Hybrid/Bundle are weeks that are for sale through the Marriott Resale Department. These aren't weeks they have on their own books, those go into the Trust. As noted, the only weeks they are selling are international (Costa Rica) in addition to the ones you mentioned. I am pretty sure Asia Pacific, Bali and Australia are point based out of Asia Pacific.




But in practice - and correct me if I'm totally off base - you are dealing with a salesperson who is selling you week that will be enrolled in Abound (alongside some trust points) and he'll usually be pitching it as a way to reduce your cost/point and MF/point. As the person listening to the salesperson, I suspect you may not even know it's from the Resale Department until you sign a deed and see the seller's name.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> But in practice - and correct me if I'm totally off base - you are dealing with a salesperson who is selling you week that will be enrolled in Abound (alongside some trust points) and he'll usually be pitching it as a way to reduce your cost/point and MF/point. As the person listening to the salesperson, I suspect you may not even know it's from the Resale Department until you sign a deed and see the seller's name.


That is all correct, but I still think it is important to distinguish between selling developer weeks and resale weeks. resale weeks are cheaper than they sold them pre 2010. You can't buy a resale week from MVC and have it come enrolled like you can with international weeks.


----------



## GabrielSmith

Eric B said:


> To use your points in Abound, you would convert them in the year prior to the use year.  There is no banking involved as it doesn’t extend them beyond the use year they are in.  You should be able to convert your WKORV week to Abound club points since you acquired it in 2018.
> 
> You can also either bank either the SOs if not converted or the club points if converted to make them usable in the year after their use year, longer if you own more eligible points.




Even though i


----------



## GabrielSmith

Even though I bought resale?


----------



## dioxide45

GabrielSmith said:


> Even though I bought resale?


As long as it was before August 9, 2022.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> That is all correct, but I still think it is important to distinguish between selling developer weeks and resale weeks. resale weeks are cheaper than they sold them pre 2010. You can't buy a resale week from MVC and have it come enrolled like you can with international weeks.



I thought they would not even sell you a resale week or a hybrid package unless you ask. In order to ask, you need to be quite well educated. So I doubt the sales person could fool a Tugger! LOL


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I thought they would not even sell you a resale week or a hybrid package unless you ask. In order to ask, you need to be quite well educated. So I doubt the sales person could fool a Tugger! LOL




I only had that offered once and it was when I said I just buy weeks. They offered me a resale week for $20K that had a resale value of $12K at most. So, I didn't really do the math at the time (because I just buy weeks...) but I suspect that if one wanted to go that route it is still cheaper on a per-points basis to buy the week resale and then buy the points to enroll it.


----------



## luv_maui

GregT said:


> These prices are stunning - and 2X for a 3BR vs a 2BR?   That’s just crazy.   Our first 3BR at MOC was 20% higher (in 2007) when we bought direct.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


But Hyatt 2 br OFs EY (float 1-50) are:
$79,800 floors 1-4
$89,400 floors 5-8
$92,300 floors 9-12

Current 8% discount on above list prices and 500,000 hyatt points incentive,
 Very nice product, fantastic OF  views


----------



## DavidnRobin

GabrielSmith said:


> Even though I bought resale?



Yes for yours.
WKORV in Abound is not that poor of value. Check out your Maintenance Fee and conversion value. There is a Google Doc somewhere here. I think it is 0.42 which is considered good.
But, check these values.
We own WKORV resale bought years ago. We bought to use.
Best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dr.debs

Hi all- I am very confused about Abound. I own MCV and SDO eoy weeks, initially SDO was Platinum but now Gold+. Both float 1-52. I did not convert to staroptions or enroll in Marriot vacation club points as I bought to use and trade. Both purchases I believe before 2010. Can I and should I enroll in Abound? Sounds like $1945 for two weeks and what does that get me? I find II has become more costly and difficult to trade with over the years, and Marriot Bonvoy points less useful than the old Star points. Advice? Insights appreciated.


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## Ken555

dr.debs said:


> Hi all- I am very confused about Abound. I own MCV and SDO eoy weeks, initially SDO was Platinum but now Gold+. Both float 1-52. I did not convert to staroptions or enroll in Marriot vacation club points as I bought to use and trade. Both purchases I believe before 2010. Can I and should I enroll in Abound? Sounds like $1945 for two weeks and what does that get me? I find II has become more costly and difficult to trade with over the years, and Marriot Bonvoy points less useful than the old Star points. Advice? Insights appreciated.



Where did you get the quote for $1945 for two weeks enrollment into Abound?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dr.debs

Ken555 said:


> Where did you get the quote for $1945 for two weeks enrollment into Abound?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


On the Marriott vacation club website- my error $1995- my understanding(such as it is) is third party purchases have to be enrolled to use Abound or is this not correct
“As an Owner, you have the option to enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program (the "Exchange Program").

You may enroll week(s) purchased from Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates in the Exchange Program for only *$595 for enrollment of one week and $695 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a deed recording date prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer, *with pricing of $1495 for enrollment of one week and $1995 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties in transactions brokered by Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates may be eligible for the offer under certain terms and conditions. Offer is valid for weeks located at participating MVCI resorts located in the U.S. and the Caribbean, and at Marriott's Phuket Beach Club.”


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## DanCali

dr.debs said:


> On the Marriott vacation club website- my error $1995- my understanding(such as it is) is third party purchases have to be enrolled to use Abound or is this not correct
> “As an Owner, you have the option to enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program (the "Exchange Program").
> 
> You may enroll week(s) purchased from Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates in the Exchange Program for only *$595 for enrollment of one week and $695 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a deed recording date prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer, *with pricing of $1495 for enrollment of one week and $1995 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties in transactions brokered by Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates may be eligible for the offer under certain terms and conditions. Offer is valid for weeks located at participating MVCI resorts located in the U.S. and the Caribbean, and at Marriott's Phuket Beach Club.”




Those are the enrollment fees for MVC developer weeks and for pre-2010 Marriott resale weeks. Back around 2016 I took them up on it and enrolled my pre-2010 Marriott resale weeks for $1995.

I suspect this will not apply to Vistana weeks, but they just haven't updated the language yet.


----------



## dioxide45

dr.debs said:


> Hi all- I am very confused about Abound. I own MCV and SDO eoy weeks, initially SDO was Platinum but now Gold+. Both float 1-52. I did not convert to staroptions or enroll in Marriot vacation club points as I bought to use and trade. Both purchases I believe before 2010. Can I and should I enroll in Abound? Sounds like $1945 for two weeks and what does that get me? I find II has become more costly and difficult to trade with over the years, and Marriot Bonvoy points less useful than the old Star points. Advice? Insights appreciated.


If you bought it prior to June 20, 2010, can enroll the Marriott week for free by watching a webinar. If the SDO week is truly voluntary resale, it can't be enrolled in or be eligible for Abound without a developer purchase.


----------



## dr.debs

So do I have to enroll my pre 2010 third party purchased weeks in MVC to use Abound?


----------



## dr.debs

dioxide45 said:


> If you bought it prior to June 20, 2010, can enroll the Marriott week for free by watching a webinar. If the SDO week is truly voluntary resale, it can't be enrolled in or be eligible for Abound without a developer purchase.


Is the Webinar on the MVC site?


----------



## dr.debs

According to the website my MCV week is eligible for enrollment valued at 2950 pts


----------



## dr.debs

But I get the same enrollment notice as above $1495 for one week and $1995 for more with club fees of $205


----------



## dioxide45

dr.debs said:


> So do I have to enroll my pre 2010 third party purchased weeks in MVC to use Abound?


Yes


dr.debs said:


> Is the Webinar on the MVC site?


Yes.

Here are instructions on how to do the webinar.
_Sign in to your account, then:
--> click on "Helpful Tools" under "RESOURCES" at the top of the page
--> scroll down and click on the "Ownership Webinar" box at the bottom
--> click "yes" if you get a pop-up box asking if it's okay to leave the page, and you should land on the InsiderFoundations / Owner Learning Center page
--> scroll down to the last video, "Understanding the Benefits of Enrolling Webinar" and note the small print just above it: Owners who reside in the U.S. whose weeks were purchased by June 20, 2010, will be offered free enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program after viewing this entire presentation.<<_


----------



## Danjos

dioxide45 said:


> *I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation.
> 
> • I moved all of the posts from 8/24/22 to this thread, starting with the Docs posted on Vistana.
> 
> • Please avoid off topic chitchat posts - let's keep this thread informational.
> 
> DeniseM*
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> *ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS*
> *Can I use my StarOptions to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> No. Club Points is the currency that may be used to confirm vacations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties in Abound. In order to reserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property through Abound, you must first elect your eligible VOI(s) to receive Club Points.
> *Does Abound by Marriott Vacations™ replace the Vistana Signature Network (VSN)?*
> 
> No. If you choose to vacation at your Home Resort(s) or stay within the Vistana resort collection, you can use your VOI(s) as you have done in the past. Access to Abound — by electing to receive Club Points — is another use option that will be available to you but is not mandatory. Each Use Year, you choose, depending on where and how you want to vacation that year.
> Electing to receive Club Points for eligible VOI(s) is an option that enables you to reserve vacations across the expanded network of brands.
> *How is resort inventory made available for Club Points redemption?*
> 
> When enrolled and affiliated Owners across all brands in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) comparable inventory based on the Owner’s VOI is made available for exchange through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *How will the affiliation impact how I use my ownership?*
> 
> Since the affiliation between VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ does not affect what you currently own, you may use your ownership as you have in the past:
> Reserve a vacation at your Home Resort(s).
> Reserve an in-network vacation through VSN.
> Bank your StarOptions®.
> Use StarOptions for other vacations like hotel stays and cruises through VSN Select.
> Convert your VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy® points.
> Exchange your VOI(s) through Interval International®.
> 
> Beginning with your 2023 Use Year, you will be able to enjoy a new use option and elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs to use in Abound.
> *If I wish to reserve a vacation in the Vistana Signature Network, can I continue to use my VOI(s) to do so?*
> 
> Yes. You do not need to elect to receive Club Points to use your StarOptions to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resort or reserve some other usage option in the VSN. In fact, if you intend to use your VOI(s) to reserve your Home Resort or another Vistana resort, we recommend that you understand the number of Club Points that would be required for your desired vacation prior to making the decision of whether to elect. The Club Points and StarOptions currencies are different, and the number of StarOptions required may differ from the number of Club Points required. _Points charts coming soon._
> Club Points may be used to reserve Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, Westin Vacation Club resorts, and other vacation experiences. However, you may find it more advantageous to continue using your StarOptions for stays at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts.
> 
> Currency to UseWhen I Want to:Home Options or Weeks-Based VOI(s)Reserve a vacation at my Home Resort(s)StarOptionsReserve a vacation within the Vistana Signature Network of resorts or through VSN SelectClub PointsReserve a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or another vacation experience through Abound. You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but the number of Club Points required will vary from the number of StarOptions required. We recommend you look at the Points Charts prior to making the decision to elect to receive Club Points.
> 
> *What are "eligible VOIs”?*
> 
> Eligible VOIs:
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level.
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
> VOIs enrolled in VSN at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and Westin Riverfront resort will not be able to elect to receive Club Points at the time Abound transactions go live and these VOIs will not count toward the Owners benefit level. We anticipate that these VOIs will be eligible to elect to receive Club Points and count toward the Owner’s benefit level in the future. Additionally, Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound until Owners at these properties are able to elect to receive Club Points.
> Restricted, First Day Benefit and Bonus StarOptions are not eligible for election.
> Owners of VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.
> 
> *What is Abound by Marriott Vacations?*
> 
> Vistana Signature Network™ (VSN) has been affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, the internal exchange program previously available only to Marriott Vacation Club Owners.
> The affiliation will enable VSN members to elect their eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) to receive Club Points. Club Points may be used in Abound to confirm vacations throughout an expanded network of brands including Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club villa resorts, as well as Vistana Beach Club.
> Through Abound, VSN Members can also use Club Points for cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, car rental, airline miles, golf, travel protection, and more.
> _Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._
> Why is the VSN™ being affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?
> 
> When Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquired ILG in 2018, we announced that we intended to look for ways to expand vacation opportunities for Owners across the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands. Since that announcement, we have been working behind the scenes to set up the guidelines, systems, and technology to enable expanded offerings and fulfill this promise. The affiliation with Abound is the result of the effort to offer Owners more choice and more destinations in a way that is simple to navigate and understand.
> *Will I need to take any action to become part of Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> If you are currently a member of VSN with eligible VOIs all you will need to do in order to receive Club Points to use for vacations at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or one of the thousands of vacation experience options available through Abound, is elect to receive Club Points by the associated deadline each year. Electing to receive Club Points does not happen automatically and is optional.
> *Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ affect my maintenance fees?*
> 
> The affiliation will not impact your maintenance fees to the extent that maintenance fees are comprised only of your Home Resort(s) property’s operating costs and reserve fees. If you own a product where the maintenance fees also include fees associated with a membership in VSN, then they may be impacted to the extent VSN membership fees are adjusted.
> The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network).
> Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
> *Will the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™ change my deeded ownership?*
> 
> No. The affiliation between these two programs enhances your usage options but does not change your deed in any way. Your Vacation Ownership Interest(s) are the same.
> *BENEFIT LEVELS*
> *Are there any benefits from my VSN Elite level that will no longer be available?*
> 
> Early check-in, late check-out, and concierge service that may have been previously available, based on demand, will no longer be available. Additionally, VSN Members at the higher Owner benefit levels will no longer receive discounted fees since they are replaced by Club Dues.
> *As a 5-Star Elite level Member of VSN, I receive a 10% Marriott Bonvoy bonus. Will I still receive this bonus with my new Owner benefit level?*
> 
> The 10% bonus remains in place for VSN VOIs that have a Presidential or Chairman’s Club Owner benefit level (formerly 4- or 5-Star Elite Owners) when you convert your VSN VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> *Individual Owner benefit level: Once elected, the use of Club Points follow the rules for each individual’s Owner benefit level when transacting in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange system. What else do I need to know about an individual Owner benefit level?*
> 
> An individual Owner benefit level is calculated based on the contract(s) an individual is named on.
> When a VSN Member elects to receive and then uses Club Points, the individual Owner benefit level will determine the parameters of the rules. This includes the following transactions:
> Deadline for banking and the usage window for banked Club Points
> Reservation timeframes and cancellation timeframes
> Last-minute Points reservation discounts
> Vacation experience credit benefits and expanded offers such as private vacation homes
> 
> *I am a biennial Owner. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*
> 
> Club Points values will be calculated at 50% annually toward your Owner benefit level since your ownership is only allocated every-other-year. For example, if your biennial ownership is valued at 4,000 Club Points every-other-year, it will be calculated at 2,000 Club Points annually toward your Owner benefit level.
> *I own VOIs in both a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club (or affiliated) ownership resort and Marriott Vacation Club. How will my Owner benefit level be calculated?*
> 
> When VSN is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations, the Club Points for all of an Owner’s contracts will be combined between the expanded brands. Many VSN Members will enjoy savings from paying one annual Club Dues fee (based on their new Owner benefit level) rather than paying both Club Dues with Marriott Vacation Club and a VSN fee.
> If you are named on a contract, the total number of Club Points at which your VOI(s) are valued will be added together to determine your individual Owner benefit level.
> *I was awarded Elite Level Qualification Credits (ELQC) when I purchased my ownership through Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club. What will happen with the ELQC program? *
> 
> The ELQC program has been discontinued. However, ELQCs previously given to Owners have been included in the calculation of VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels used to determine new Owner benefit levels to the extent applicable.
> *In the case where an Owner’s benefit level is different from other Owners on the contract, which level governs their transactions?*
> 
> When transacting in VSN, all Owners named on the membership will follow the rules of the primary Owner’s benefit level.
> It is not common but possible that the primary Owner may have a lower Owner benefit level than others on the membership.
> 
> Once an Owner elects to receive Club Points, their individual Owner benefit level will govern the transactions when using Club Points.
> *What are Owner Benefit Levels?*
> 
> VOIs enrolled in VSN have benefits and discounts based on Owner benefit levels, along with additional usage flexibility around timeframes and deadlines within Abound by Marriott Vacations.
> As part of the affiliation, the VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels will be transitioning to align with the Abound Owner benefit level structure (Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman’s Club).
> Owner benefit levels in Abound are based on the total Club Points election value of your eligible VOIs, in addition to any Marriott Vacation Club inventory (such as Club Points) you may own. When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
> *What benefits will come with my new Owner benefit level?*
> 
> Marriott Bonvoy Elite level upgrades:
> *Owner* benefit level Members will continue to receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Gold Elite level, as VSN Members do now.
> *Select* and *Executive* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Platinum Elite level.
> *Presidential* and *Chairman’s Club* benefit level Members will receive an upgrade to the Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite level.
> Owner benefit levels are reviewed annually and the corresponding Elite level upgrade will be renewed. VSN Members  will have the opportunity to designate one Owner from the account who will receive the Elite level upgrade at the time of such renewal.
> 
> Last-minute Points reservation discounts:
> When a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points, Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of required Club Points when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 30 days of arrival.
> Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club Owner benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when booking reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts up to 60 days of arrival.
> 
> Owner rental discounts:
> If you are at the Owner or Select benefit level, you can receive a 25% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> If you are at the Executive benefit level, you can receive a 30% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> If you are at the Presidential or Chairman’s Club benefit level, you can receive a 35% Owner rental discount at Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club resorts and properties.
> The Owner rental discount codes will be the same as at all participating resorts and properties in the network and depends on availability and an Owner’s benefit level as noted above. Owners may reserve the discount rate on their Owner website, or on Marriott.com using the following codes:
> 7VC – 25% off – All Owners
> 6VC – 30% off – Executive Level or Higher
> 2VC – 35% off – Presidential Level or Higher
> 
> 
> More flexible timeframes:
> VSN Members at higher Owner benefit levels enjoy more flexible timeframes for confirming reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, as well as extended deadlines for transactions like electing to receive Club Points, and banking Club Points.  VSN Members also receive more flexible deadlines for converting VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> 
> More vacation experiences to explore:
> When using Club Points, VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and higher enjoy additional vacation experience options, including the ability to reserve private vacation homes through Villas of Distinction and premier sporting and entertainment events.
> 
> Discounts and Destination Dollars:
> VSN Members enjoy discounts for options like car rental and may receive Destination Dollars when reserving guided tours, vacation homes, cruises, and other options. Benefits/credits will vary based on the Owner benefit level.
> 
> *What is a Primary Owner on a Membership?*
> 
> The Owner with the highest “Individual Owner benefit level” among any of the Primary Owners of the VOI contracts in the VSN membership will be designated as the “Membership Owner Benefit Level” and the Primary Owner of the membership. If a tiebreaker is required among the Primary Owners on a membership, the Primary listed on the oldest active and solid (closed) contract based on purchase date will break the tie.
> *What will happen to my VSN Elite level and/or the benefits associated with my VSN membership after the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> VSN Elite levels are transitioning to Abound Owner benefit levels which are the following election values:
> Owner: Up to 3,999 Club Points
> Select: 4,000 to 6,999 Club Points
> Executive: 7,000 to 9,999 Club Points
> Presidential: 10,000 to 14,999 Club Points
> Chairman’s Club: 15,000+ Club Points
> 
> VSN Members will be grandfathered to Abound Owner benefit levels as follows:
> 
> Election Value and/or VSN Elite LevelThis will be your Owner benefit level in Abound3-Star EliteExecutive - or higher4-Star ElitePresidential - or higher5-Star EliteChairman’s Club
> 
> *Why is my Owner benefit level higher in VSN than when I use Club Points in Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> Each owner has an Owner benefit level that is calculated based on the eligible VOIs in which they are named on a deed, however when transacting within VSN, all rules (such as deadlines and the percent of Marriott Bonvoy points which VOIs may be converted) are based on the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner.
> After electing to receive Club Points and when using them within Abound, each VSN Member’s individual Owner benefit level dictates the rules for the applicable transactions (such as the timeframes for making reservations and waitlist requests). When the VSN Member with the highest Owner benefit level uses the Club Points, all other VSN Members on the contract will enjoy the extended deadlines, timeframes, and other benefits associated with that individual’s benefit level.
> *Will my new Owner benefit level change based on the years when I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> Your Owner benefit level is not dependent on how you use your VOI(s) each year.
> When calculating the Owner benefit level, any eligible contract(s) owned by a spouse will be included in the total if we have identified them as spouses or domestic partners.
> All Owners on a deed enjoy the Owner benefit level of the Primary Owner when transacting within VSN. An individual’s Owner benefit level governs the rules for using Club Points in Abound.
> An Owner’s benefit level could go up if an Owner purchases or enrolls more Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests, or go down if an Owner sells or unenrolls Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Marriott Vacation Club Interests.
> Some VSN Members will be “grandfathered” into an elevated Owner benefit level at the time of affiliation. Those VSN Members who are grandfathered into an elevated Owner benefit level will remain at that level as long as they maintain the total election value that they had at the time they were grandfathered. If a VSN Member is demoted to a lower Owner benefit level, they will remain at the lower level unless/until they purchase more Club Points and/or eligible VOIs enrolled in VSN to rise to a higher Owner benefit level as per the established amounts required to achieve each level.
> A VSN Member may be subject to cancellation for non-payment of Club Dues which could result in a decreased Owner benefit level.
> *VSN BENEFITS*
> *Are there any changes to the cancellation policy for reservations I make at my Home Resort(s) or within VSN?*
> 
> Yes, unless you can and do opt-out, there are no longer cancellation fees for reservations canceled within 60 days of arrival beginning in 2023.
> *Are there any changes to VSN banking guidelines?*
> 
> Yes:
> Beginning in 2023, unless you can and do opt-out, no additional fee will be assessed for banking.
> The deadlines and timeframes for using banked StarOptions will change as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelCurrent StarOptions Banking Deadlines2023 Banking StarOptions Deadlines*Current Timeframe to Use Banked StarOptions*Beginning in 2025 timelines for using banked StarOptionsOwner or SelectJuly 1st of current Use YearJune 30 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearExecutiveOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following Calendar YearPresidentialOctober 1st of current Use YearAugust 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 1.5 Calendar YearsChairman’s ClubDecember 31st of current Use YearOctober 31 of current Use YearWithin the following 2 Calendar YearsWithin the immediately following 2 Calendar Years
> Currently, all VSN members are given 2 calendar years to use banked StarOptions. This policy and timeframe will continue for 2 calendar years (for 2023 and 2024 use) and then align with the above new use periods (which depend on an Owner’s benefit level) starting for StarOptions banked in 2025.
> Tip: there is an advantage for VSN Owners with when they can use their banked Club Points (vs when they can use their banked StarOptions which is not until 8 months prior to their check-in date)
> Are there changes to the timeframes that apply to reserving my VOI(s) or StarOptions for use in the VSN network?
> 
> No.
> *Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for a VSN Select Cruise?*
> 
> Yes. You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for hundreds more different cruise itineraries through Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *Will I still be able to use my StarOptions for stays at 20+ hotels through VSN Select?*
> 
> Yes, but unless you can and do opt-out, you will no longer be required to pay an additional fee to take advantage of this benefit beginning in 2023.
> You will also be able to elect to receive Club Points to use for a larger selection of hotels.
> *ELECTING & MANAGING CLUB POINTS*
> Am I able to bank, borrow and transfer Club Points?
> 
> Once you elect to receive Club Points, you can bank them into the subsequent use year, borrow them into the immediately preceding year, or transfer their usage to another Owner affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *Are there fees to bank, borrow, or transfer my Club Points?*
> 
> No.
> *Can I elect my 2022 usage to receive Club Points?*
> 
> No. Enjoy your 2022 usage as you had planned to prior to this announcement.
> _Electing to receive Club Points and making reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts using the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program are expected to be functional in October 2022, for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when transactions in Abound are functional._
> 
> *Can I rent my Club Points to another VSN Member?*
> 
> No, you may not rent your Club Points to another VSN Member.
> *Can the number of Club Points required for stays at a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort increase or decrease?*
> 
> Yes. When a popular date such as a holiday like New Year’s Day falls mid-week on a certain year, the number of Club Points required for that holiday may increase, and the surrounding nights decrease. Therefore, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday may not change, but the individual nightly amounts within the week may be adjusted to account for the higher demand of the holiday. If the number of Club Points for the surrounding nights do not change, the 7-night stay for the week that includes the holiday will increase.
> The amount of Club Points required to reserve a particular night of occupancy at a particular property can be increased or decreased from year-to-year to reflect the demand of that night relative to other nights of inventory in the network.
> *Can the value of my VOI increase or decrease?*
> 
> The value of your VOI is generally based on the relative demand in the system for the inventory you own. Factors include, but may not be limited to, the specific resort, season, and size of accommodation owned.
> There is a possibility that the Club Points attributable to your VOI could increase or decrease.
> *How can I receive the best value using Club Points?*
> 
> There are several ways to receive the best value when using Club Points.
> Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require significantly fewer Club Points than weekend stays.
> If you are able to travel in a shoulder season, fewer Club Points are generally required. For example, plan a trip to Newport Coast, California, in September after school resumes, rather than in July, the most popular time of year for that destination. Look at the Points Charts. You may be surprised to learn how many nights you can reserve in the off-season by electing to receive Club Points with your peak-season VOI(s).
> When you are not traveling with a large party, consider reserving a smaller villa, such as a 1-bedroom villa or suite, or even a guest room, if it will accommodate your travel party.
> Keep an eye on Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes — these are discounted 3-, 4-, and 7-night stays booked within 60 days of arrival at select resorts.
> Take advantage of Owner benefit level discounts for spontaneous travel. VSN Members at the Executive benefit level receive a 25% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 30 days of arrival. VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels receive a 30% discount off the number of Club Points required when reserving within 60 days of arrival.
> 
> *How do I bank Club Points?*
> 
> You may bank some or all of your Club Points into a subsequent Use Year if you do so by the applicable deadline within the current Use Year.
> Your banking timeframes are based on your Owner benefit level, as follows. Once banked, Club Points may not be banked again, borrowed back, or transferred to another Owner.
> 
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelBanking DeadlineUse Banked PointsOwner and Select6 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearExecutive4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following Use YearPresidential4 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 1.5 Use YearsChairman’s Club2 months prior to the end of the current Use YearWithin the following 2 Use Years
> 
> *How do I borrow Club Points?*
> 
> You may borrow Club Points into the immediately preceding year when they are needed to confirm a vacation.
> There is no deadline for borrowing. You can borrow whenever you need additional Club Points to confirm a vacation.
> If you later cancel the vacation for which you borrowed Club Points, they will expire on their original expiration date.
> *How do I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> It’s easy, soon you will be able to elect to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs from your Owner website, vistana.com.
> Weeks Owners must elect their entire VOI to receive Club Points. You may not elect to receive Club Points for a locked-off portion of your villa.
> Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
> *How does transferring Club Points work?*
> 
> VSN Members can transfer some or all of their Club Points for usage by another Owner who is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, but Club Points that were previously banked, or transferred may not be transferred again (e.g., if usage of 2023 Club Points is transferred to another Owner, usage of those 2023 Club Points cannot be transferred again).
> Transferred Club Points retain the Use Year of the Owner who transferred them. For example, if an Owner transferred Club Points to you with a Use Year of January 1 through December 31, 2023, then those transferred Club Points must be used for vacations that take place from January 1 through December 31, 2023.
> Transferred Club Points may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred again.
> *How many Club Points will I receive if I elect to receive them for my eligible VOI(s)?*
> 
> For Weeks VOIs, the number of Club Points you will receive may depend on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and season you own. Peak season weeks generally exchange for more Club Points than shoulder season weeks, for example.
> For Points (Home Options) VOIs, such as Westin Flex, the number of Club Points you will receive will be based upon the exchange average of inventory that makes up each Trust.
> Weeks VOIs may be elected in their entirety.
> Points VOIs may be elected in their entirety, or in increments of 20,000 Home Options, except for Points VOIs at Westin Coral Vista, Westin Sunset Bay, and Westin Nanea, for which the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.
> *How many Club Points will I receive when I elect?*
> 
> Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.
> *I am a biennial Owner who would like to elect to receive Club Points. When can I elect?*
> 
> You will be able to elect to receive Club Points for the Use Years owned and you may do so as early as 25 months prior to the beginning of that Use Year.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, am I giving up my VOI(s) permanently?*
> 
> No. To access the expanded brands and options available in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, VSN Members need to elect to receive Club Points each year for their eligible VOI(s). However, if you would like to reserve a VSN reservation using StarOptions, there is no need to elect to receive Club Points.
> Elect to receive Club Points when you would like to reserve a vacation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property, or when you would like to confirm a tour, cruise, hotel stay, safari, or another experience through Abound.
> You may also use Club Points to reserve vacations at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, but we recommend you look at the value of using Club Points versus StarOptions for these stays. Also, we anticipate there may be limited availability at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts since inventory is made available when Owners at particular resorts elect to receive Club Points.
> When you elect to receive Club Points, the transaction cannot be reversed for that VOI(s) that year.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, where can I use them to vacation?*
> 
> Club Points may be used to reserve vacations at available resorts and properties in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, including resorts in the expanded network of brands: Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club.
> _There are two resorts in VSN: Harborside at Atlantis, and the Westin Riverfront Mountain Resort, where Owners of VOIs at these properties will not have the option to elect to receive Club Points immediately after the launch of this program. Consequently, other Owners will not be able to use Club Points to reserve vacations at these resorts. We anticipate that this is temporary, and that Owners of VOIs at these two resorts will be able to elect to receive Club Points in the future._
> Club Points may also be used for cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation protection, golf, airline miles, car rental, resort credit, vacation homes, and more.
> *If I elect to receive Club Points, will I receive the equivalent vacation buying power as my VOI(s) would have received?*
> 
> Electing to receive Club Points for your eligible VOI(s) is not a 1:1 trade because the currencies of the two systems are different.
> If you believe that you will return to your Home Resort(s) or to another resort that is currently available through VSN, you may not wish to elect to receive Club Points. We recommend Owners look at the number of Club Points you will receive, and the number of Club Points required for the vacations you would like to confirm prior to making this decision.
> Similarly, the number of Club Points required for stays depends on where and when you plan to travel. Peak season dates in larger villas will require more Club Points, and shoulder season travel in smaller villas will require fewer Club Points. Mid-week stays (Sundays through Thursdays) typically require fewer Club Points than weekend stays.
> 
> *If I want to vacation at my Home Resort(s), should I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> If you are certain you want to visit your Home Resort(s), it may be better to reserve using your Home Options or your week as you always have, rather than electing to receive Club Points. We recommend you understand the Club Points Charts prior to electing in order to understand the best value for your desired vacations.
> While Club Points may be used to reserve Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts, the number of nights you can confirm using Club Points versus using your existing VOI(s) may differ based on the different currencies. We recommend you look at the Club Points Charts prior to making your decision. _Points charts coming soon._
> Additionally, while you enjoy a priority reservation window when booking your Home Resort(s), inventory from your Home Resort may be limited in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ because it will depend on whether Home Resort Owners elect to receive Club Points for their VOI(s) in a given year.
> *What are Club Points?*
> 
> Club Points are a flexible vacation currency which can be used to reserve vacations throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program including:
> Reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and Marriott Vacation Club Pulse® properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, and Westin Vacation Club resorts.
> We anticipate that availability of Sheraton and Westin Vacation Club inventory through Abound will be limited because it becomes available in the Abound network when a VSN Member elects to receive Club Points for eligible VOIs.
> Reservations at these resorts may be made for any check-in date, villa size, and number of nights, based on availability.
> 
> Cruises, guided tours, hotel stays, vacation homes, safaris, and more. Club Points can also be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Member of Abound.
> 
> *When I don't reserve my Home Resort during the Home Resort preference period, my VOI(s) can be used as StarOptions within the VSN float window. Will I be able to use them as Club Points instead?*
> 
> No, for years when you want to use Club Points, you must take action by electing to receive Club Points prior to the applicable deadline. Election does not happen automatically.
> *When is the deadline to elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> For the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members at all benefit levels will have until December 31, 2022 to elect to receive Club Points for their eligible VOIs.
> For future Use Years, the deadlines will be as follows:
> Owner, Select, and Executive benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by September 30 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is September 30, 2023.
> Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit level VSN Members must elect to receive Club Points by October 31 of the prior year. For example, if you would like to elect to receive Club Points for your 2024 Use Year, the deadline to do so is October 31, 2023.
> You may elect to receive Club Points as early as 25 months prior to your Use Year and begin using Club Points to confirm the following years’ vacations or you may borrow them to confirm a vacation in the preceding year. For example, you could elect to receive Club Points for your 2026 Use Year as early as December 1, 2023, for use between January 1, 2026 (by borrowing) through December 31, 2026, or even later, if you bank your Club Points.
> 
> *Why should I elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> You may decide to elect to receive Club Points when planning a vacation at more than 70 Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, including destinations in Europe, Asia, the Caribbean, and Central America, and at Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property locations in San Francisco, South Beach, New York, Washington D.C., or San Diego.
> Club Points may also be used to confirm thousands of other experiences, including:
> Hundreds of cruise itineraries worldwide
> Dozens of guided tours to destinations like Italy, China, Ireland, Machu Picchu, the Galapagos, and Africa
> Stays at 100+ hotels
> Culinary tours
> Car rental, travel protection, golf certificates, and frequent flyer miles
> VSN Members at the Executive benefit level and above can reserve luxury private homes through Villas of Distinction and premier events.
> 
> *CLUB POINTS RESERVATIONS & WAITLIST*
> Internal waitlist for VSN Members:
> 
> VSN Members at the Presidential and Chairman’s Club benefit levels may use their StarOptions to place a VSN waitlist request if the in-network reservation they desire is not immediately available to confirm.
> VSN Members at any Owner benefit level who elect to receive Club Points may use them to place an internal waitlist request for reservations at resorts and properties throughout the Abound by Marriott Vacations network if the vacation you desire is not immediately available to reserve.
> Waitlist timeframes using Club Points are as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit Level12 Months prior to arrival – Friday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, and Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail12 Months prior to arrival – following Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at resorts in the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) including Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club Villa Resorts10 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts and Properties, Grand Residence Club by Marriott, Lake Tahoe, VSN resorts and the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail6 Months prior to arrival – Tuesday Mornings 9 a.m. Eastern Time
> Vacations at Luxury Properties, other than the Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail*Owner and Select benefit level Owner7 or more consecutive nights7 or more consecutive nightsAny Number of NightsAny number of NightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s Club benefit level OwnersAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of NightsAny Number of Nights
> 
> *What are Club Points in a holding account?*
> 
> When you cancel a reservation made using Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or a Luxury Property from 60 days to 1 day prior to arrival, or for one of the other reasons above, they are returned in a holding account.
> Club Points in a holding account may be used to confirm another reservation only within 60 days of arrival.
> They can be used for reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resorts through Abound by Marriott Vacations™ within 60 days of check-in.
> They can be used to confirm a Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Escapes reservation.
> They can be used to reserve select vacations and experiences including cruises, group tours, and more.
> Club Points from a holding account must be used by the end of the Use Year and may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred to another Owner.
> *What are the cancellation policies for Club Points at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury Property?*
> 
> Vacation Canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in60 days to 1 day prior to check-inAll Owner Benefit LevelsClub Points are returned unrestricted.Club Points are returned in a holding account.VSN Members who use a 20% Points premium in order to confirm 13 months prior to check inPoints premium is returned in a holding account. Other Club Points are returned unrestricted.Points premium is forfeited. Other Club Points are returned in a holding account.Owner and Select benefit level VSN Members who reserve a vacation for 7 or more nights before the 10-month window, and then modify the reservation to less than 7-nights once they are within the 10-month windowClub Points attributable to the difference in the number of nights are returned in a holding account.
> 
> *What are the reservation timeframes for using Club Points for a reservation at a Sheraton Vacation Club resort, Westin Vacation Club resort, or at the Vistana Beach Club?*
> 
> Inventory within VSN will be able to be reserved as early as 12 months prior to the arrival beginning on the Tuesday after when the Friday 12-month inventory is available at a Marriott Vacation Club resort.
> Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve 7 or more consecutive nights 12-months prior to arrival; Owners at the Executive benefit level and higher may reserve any number of nights as early as 12-months prior to arrival.
> Owners and Select benefit level Owners may reserve any number of nights beginning 10 months prior to arrival.
> 
> Owner Benefit Level12 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays following when the 12 Month inventory is available for Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner and Select7 or more nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsExecutive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or at the Vistana Beach Club resort.
> 
> Availability starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by VSN members electing to receive Club Points.
> *When can I book a reservation using Club Points?*
> 
> When you use Club Points for a reservation at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or at a Luxury Property, there are four booking windows, as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit Level13 months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)12 Months prior to arrival (Fridays)10 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)6 Months prior to arrival (Tuesdays)Owner7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property with payment of a 20% Points premium7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Select7 or more consecutive nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property (without the Points premium)7 or more nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for 7 or more nights at these same propertiesAny number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club, resort or property, or place waitlist request for any number of nightsAny number of nights at a Luxury Property, or place waitlist request for a Luxury Property*Executive, Presidential, and Chairman’s ClubAny number of nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort or property or a Luxury PropertyPlace waitlist request for any number of nights at a Marriott Vacation Club resort or propertyNot a reservation or waitlist windowPlace waitlist request for a Luxury Property*
> * There is a 3 night minimum stay requirement at The Ritz-Carlton Club, St. Thomas, and the 6 month reservation window for Owner and Select benefit levels does not apply to The Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail, for which the normal reservation windows will apply.
> 
> If the reservation you want to confirm is not immediately available, you may place a waitlist request as outlined above. The following waitlist guidelines apply:
> Waitlist requests are fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis and may be capped.
> You may request more than one check-in date and location. The number of Club Points required for the most expensive vacation of all of those requested will be placed in a pending status while you remain on the waitlist.
> You may determine the length of time you would like to remain on the waitlist — up to 24 hours prior to arrival.
> If the request is not confirmed or is canceled, the Club Points that were placed in a pending status will be released and made available for use as if no waitlist request had been made.
> The normal cancellation policy applies for reservations confirmed by the waitlist: Reservations canceled 61 days or more prior to check-in are returned to an Owner’s account, unrestricted. Reservations canceled from 60 days to 1 day prior to check-in are returned in a holding account.
> Waitlist timeframes are based on Owner benefit level and are set forth in the chart above.
> 
> *CRUISES, HOTELS, AND MORE*
> *Do I have to elect to receive Club Points for my eligible VOIs in order to access the additional travel offerings?*
> 
> Yes, but only for those travel offerings obtained through Abound by Marriott Vacations™. There are Owner Cruises and hotel stays available through your membership in VSN which can be confirmed using your StarOptions.
> *How do I book these additional travel offerings?*
> 
> Log in to the Owner website to explore the additional travel offerings that are available. Once you are ready to make a reservation, contact Owner Services.
> *What additional travel experiences may I get through Abound by Marriott Vacations™?*
> 
> Abound by Marriott Vacations™ allows you to enjoy exceptional travel opportunities and one-of-a-kind adventures including cruises, vacation tours, hotel stays, golf, and outdoor adventures such as river rafting. You can also use your Club Points to enhance a resort vacation, such as with car rental, airline frequent flyer miles, resort credit, golf instruction, local activities, and more. Learn more about these opportunities here.
> *MARRIOTT BONVOY*
> *Are the Marriott Bonvoy conversion deadlines changing?*
> 
> Yes, the deadline to convert your VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points is changing as follows beginning in 2023:
> Members of VSN Marriott Bonvoy Conversion Deadlines will be adjusted beginning in 2023 as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelCurrent Deadline to Convert to Bonvoy Points2023 Deadline to ConvertFrequencyOwner and Select benefit levelsMarch 31 of Current Use YearJune 30 of the Current Use YearNon-consecutive Use YearsExecutive benefit levelJuly 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use YearPresidential benefit levelOctober 1st of Current Use YearAugust 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonusChairman’s Club benefit levelsOctober 1st of Current Use YearOctober 31 of the Current Use YearEvery Use Year and 10% bonus
> Additionally, the expiration date of Marriott Bonvoy points is changing from 6 years (regardless of activity) to 24 months without activity in their account. This means that as long as a VSN Member has any activity in their Marriott Bonvoy account within 24 months, the Bonvoy Points will not expire.
> As a VSN Member, I currently receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite membership upgrade. Will this change through the affiliation with Abound by Marriott Vacations?
> 
> Beginning in 2023, one Owner from your Ownership account will receive a Marriott Bonvoy Elite status upgrade that will align with your Owner benefit level as follows:
> 
> Owner Benefit LevelMarriott Bonvoy Elite Level UpgradeOwnerGold Elite LevelSelect and ExecutivePlatinum Elite LevelPresidential and Chairman’s ClubTitanium Elite Level
> 
> Each year, your Owner benefit level will be reviewed, and the corresponding Marriott Bonvoy Elite level will be renewed. Owners will have an opportunity to designate one person who is named on the ownership to receive the upgrade.
> *Will the expiration period for Marriott Bonvoy points change?*
> 
> Marriott Bonvoy points received from conversion of VSN VOIs will align with Abound by Marriott Vacations™ rules and will not expire unless there is no Marriott Bonvoy booking activity within a rolling two-year period. Qualifying activity can include payment of maintenance fees and Club Dues on a Marriott Bonvoy charge card. Or charging incidentals to your villa when you stay at a resort in the network and your Marriott Bonvoy account is attached to your reservation. Learn more about what constitutes a qualifying activity on Marriott.com.
> Existing Bonvoy points issued to VSE Owners would be tracked and continue to expire based on the 6-year expiration rule currently in place.
> *INTERVAL INTERNATIONAL*
> *I can already use my VOI(s) to request an Interval International exchange. Can I now also use Club Points for an Interval International exchange?*
> 
> Beginning in 2023, you will have two ways to exchange with Interval International: Using your weeks-based or Points-based VOI(s) or using Club Points.
> Please be aware that when using Club Points with Interval, you may _only place an External Exchange request for resorts that are not affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™_. This is because you have access to the Abound internal exchange network that allows you to reserve a resort in the Abound network using Club Points, so there is not a requirement to exchange through Interval.
> *Once I’ve elected to receive Club Points, can I exchange them through Interval International?*
> 
> Yes, beginning in January, 2023. However, Owners may not use Club Points to place an Internal Exchange to another resort in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ network. Club Points may only be used for External Exchange requests through Interval.
> This is because Club Points may be used to make reservations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or properties, Sheraton Vacation Club resorts, or Westin Vacation Club resorts directly through the Abound reservation system, and there is no need to place an exchange request through Interval.
> Once you have determined your desired external resort(s) or destination, size of accommodation, and the time of year you would like to travel (based on Interval’s Travel Demand Index), the following chart will tell you how many Club Points are required for a 7-night stay.
> VSN Members may log in to their membership account at intervalworld.com as of January 2023 to search for availability or place a pending request using Club Points. Since Club Points may be used for External Exchanges, an External Exchange fee will need to be paid by the Member for each week requested.
> 
> �
> 
> TRAVEL DEMAND INDEX (TDI)*STUDIO1 BR2 BR3 BRNumber of Club Points Required for a 7-Night Stay Based on Size of Accommodation:140-150 (Peak)2,250>3,0004,5006,000115-135 (High)1,7502,7504,0005,00090-110 (Medium)1,5002,2503,0004,00050-85 (Low)1,0001,5002,2503,000
> * As of August 9, 2022
> 
> *Will I continue to pay the Interval International internal exchange fee of $154?*
> 
> Separate internal exchange fees (requests to exclusively go to other Vistana and Marriott Vacation Club resorts) through Interval International will not be charged if you pay annual Club Dues for Abound usage.
> However, if you elect to receive Club Points, they may not currently be used for an Interval Exchange. When they may be used for an Interval Exchange, Club Dues are restricted to external exchanges only and may not be used for an internal exchange to a resort in Abound by Marriott Vacations™.
> *FEES, DUES AND LOANS*
> How will my VSN Membership Fees change through the affiliation of VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™?
> 
> Through this affiliation, the VSN annual network membership fee and transaction fees, previously paid a la carte, are being replaced with one fee called Club Dues. This consolidated fee structure is in lieu of separate usage fees and is based on your Owner benefit level. The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program) or Club Dues/Network Membership Fees (for Members of the VSN). VSN members who opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees. These Club Dues will either be billed as a separate line item on your maintenance fee bill or mailed separately depending on the VOIs owned.
> *I am a biennial Owner. How often will I be billed Club Dues for Abound usage?*
> 
> You will be billed the full Club Dues annually, since you can use any banked StarOptions, elected Club Points; deposits with Interval, or Marriott Bonvoy points every year.
> *I own VOIs enrolled in both VSN and Abound by Marriott Vacations™. Will I be assessed multiple Club Dues?*
> 
> As long as you are the primary Owner on all of your contracts, the total number of Club Points attributable to those VOIs across the brands will result in one Owner benefit level. Your single Club Dues will be based on that Owner benefit level.
> However, it is possible that some contracts cannot be grouped together. This could result in an additional Club Dues assessment depending on how an Owner has taken title of different contracts.
> Any VOIs that are not enrolled in VSN and any Marriott Vacation Club week that is not enrolled in Abound are not factored into your Club Dues.
> *If I do not pay my Club Dues, what are my reservation options?*
> 
> VSN Members that have voluntary enrollment associated with their VOI(s) who do not pay annual Club Dues will be deemed to have opted out and become unenrolled in VSN and unaffiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™.  These Owners will then only have Home Resort usage or the ability to exchange through an affiliated exchange provider (using an individual exchange provider account subject to payment of a membership fee).
> VSN Members that have mandatory enrollment associated with their VOI(s) will not be unenrolled from VSN but not paying full Club Dues will be deemed an opt-out of the Abound exchange program; however, if delinquent in the payment of VSN Membership Fees and/or separate transactional fees, all VSN benefits and Home Resort usage rights may be suspended.
> VSN Members whose Owner benefit levels were elevated due to the grandfathering policy at the time of the affiliation will lose that elevated Owner benefit level if they are unenrolled from VSN and, in the event of reenrollment, will receive an Owner benefit level based on the current criteria and will no longer be eligible to enjoy the benefits of the grandfathering policy.
> VSN Members who are unenrolled from VSN, who opt-out, or who do not pay their Club Dues, will no longer have the option to elect to receive Club Points and may be subject to additional fees to reenroll in VSN or opt-in and regain the option of electing to receive Club Points. Additionally, Owners who are unenrolled from VSN will lose all VSN benefits including the ability to reserve an in-network reservation with StarOptions, complete any transaction using StarOptions (such as StarOptions Banking or Borrowing, VSN Select, Resort Credits, travel insurance), their Interval International corporate membership and the ability to assign/deposit their VOI(s) under that membership, or convert to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> *In the past, I paid a VSN membership fee. Will I still be paying these annual fees?*
> 
> No. For Abound usage, the VSN network membership fees will be replaced with annual Club Dues beginning in 2023. Effective 2023, the VSN membership fee will be between $170 and $235.
> *VSN has a fee of $50 to cancel reservations within 60–7 days before arrival and of $75 for less than 7 days before arrival. Will that be eliminated?*
> 
> Yes. Cancellation fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.
> *What is my annual Club Dues amount?*
> 
> Your annual Club Dues amount is determined by your Owner benefit level;
> The 2023 Club Dues are:
> Owner and Select: $230
> Executive and Presidential: $270
> Chairman’s Club: $295
> 
> _Annual Club Dues amounts are subject to change._
> *What is the value of Club Dues versus my previous VSN membership and a la carte fees?*
> 
> Depending on the annual usage options you choose and the type of vacations you reserve, Club Dues may be more or less than the VSN network membership fees plus the a la carte fees you paid in the past. Here is the consolidated chart for your reference.
> 
> Transaction2023 Fees that will be eliminated with AboundVSN Network Membership Fee$170 to $235Additional Housekeeping Fees$38 to $105 per stayConvert to Marriott Bonvoy Points$164Banking StarOptions$109VSN Select$145Interval International Membership$99Internal Exchange with Interval*$154 per weekCancellation Fee$50 to $75Guest Fee for VSN Reservations$59
> * External exchange fees, which were $209 per week in 2022, will not be eliminated. Internal Exchanges are requests to use your VOI(s) exclusively to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, or Westin Vacation Club resort in the Interval International external exchange network. Note that after electing to receive Club Points, they may not be used to place an Internal Exchange request with Interval. Note that Club Points may not be used to place an External exchange request (to resorts outside of the Abound by Marriott Vacations network) until 2023. If you wish to place an external exchange request with Interval in 2022, you must use your 2022 VOIs.
> 
> Here is one example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:
> 
> Example: 1 VOI OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$170-0-Club Dues for Owner/Select benefit level Owners-0-$230*Convert small side of lock-off to Bonvoy points$164-0-Internal Exchange using large side of lock-off$154-0-Total$488$230 (Savings $258)
> * 2023 Club Dues for the Owner/Select benefit levels
> 
> *What separate VSN fees will no longer be charged when Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out?*
> 
> When Club Dues are paid and there has not been an opt-out, the following VSN fees will be eliminated:
> VSN membership (which for 2023 is between $170 and $235, currently billed with your maintenance fees)
> Additional housekeeping fees associated with multiple reservations (over and above the one housekeeping fee included in your maintenance fee)
> Banking StarOptions
> Reservation cancellations and rebooking fees
> Interval International membership
> Internal Exchanges
> Converting to Marriott Bonvoy points
> Electing, banking, borrowing, or transferring Club Points
> 
> The a la carte transactional fees will continue through 2022 and be replaced by Club Dues beginning in 2023 (unless a VSN member can and has chosen to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of Abound, in which case that VSN member will be responsible for continuing to pay all of the separate VSN transactional fees).
> *When will I receive my first bill for Club Dues?*
> 
> Club Dues will be billed in 2022 for your 2023 usage.
> *Why aren’t Club Dues the same for all Owner benefit levels?*
> 
> Those with a higher Owner benefit level own more and have more vacation-related transactions throughout the year. Despite the slightly higher Club Dues, VSN Members at the higher benefit levels may still potentially save money by paying full Club Dues rather than paying a la carte fees.
> Here is an example with the payment of annual Club Dues after Abound affiliation:
> 
> Example: 3 VOIs OwnedNot AffiliatedAfter AffiliationClub Dues/VSN Network Membership Fee$235-0-Club Dues for Executive benefit level Owners-0-$270*Convert 1st VOI to Marriott Bonvoy points$164-0-Pay third-party guest fee of 2nd VOI lock-off$59-0-Internal Exchange II of 2nd VOI (other part of lock-off)$154-0-Occupy 3rd Interest-0--0-Total$612$270 (Savings $342)
> * 2023 Club Dues for the Executive/Presidential benefit levels
> 
> *Will annual Club Dues for Abound usage cover housekeeping fees for stays that exceed the one housekeeping allotment in my annual maintenance fees?*
> 
> Yes, for reservations made on or after January 1, 2023.
> *Will I be required to pay Club Dues even if I do not elect to receive Club Points?*
> 
> Yes. Club Dues are replacing the previous VSN network membership fee and the a la carte fees for reservations and transactions such as canceling a reservation and converting to Marriott Bonvoy points.
> In many cases, this will result in savings for VSN Members.
> *Will the third-party guest fee of $59 be eliminated?*
> 
> Yes, third-party guest fees will be eliminated beginning in 2023 with the payment of annual Club Dues for Abound.
> 
> Adding PDF Attachments;


So basically with the new system if in fact you bought on the secondary market this doesnt really affect the person you can still book home resort or trade into Interval if you choose however the chance of getting your home resort gets slimmer?  Just a thought looking for somemore information.  
Thanks


----------



## DavidnRobin

Danjos said:


> So basically with the new system if in fact you bought on the secondary market this doesnt really affect the person you can still book home resort or trade into Interval if you choose however the chance of getting your home resort gets slimmer? Just a thought looking for somemore information.
> Thanks



Not sure why no response - fatigue?

Anyway… It was pure speculation that HomeResort usage will get slimmer.
IMO - that is not correct as MVC can only use inventory in their control and not more. However, there is no transparency as to taking times in high season.
We travel off-season - so my anxiety about this is minimal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DJmonkey

Where can I see how many points I will get for my weeks? Thanks


----------



## bigbillf

DJmonkey said:


> Where can I see how many points I will get for my weeks? Thanks



Right now I believe that is still to be determined.  There is a post that contains how to get a good estimate and see what others have posted on theirs.  It depends on where you own, what you own and what season.... From the Vistana FAQ

Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.


----------



## magicjourney

DavidnRobin said:


> Not sure why no response - fatigue?
> 
> Anyway… It was pure speculation that HomeResort usage will get slimmer.
> IMO - that is not correct as MVC can only use inventory in their control and not more. However, there is no transparency as to taking times in high season.
> We travel off-season - so my anxiety about this is minimal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No transparency is the key for Marriott. I own both Marriott and Westin at same locations (Marriott canyon villas vs. Westin kierland, Marriott maui vs Westin maui), and Marriott is noticeably harder to reserve at 12 month in high season. MCV is notorious, with march weeks disappearing within seconds when the 12 month window opens. I expect fighting for WKV march week will start to heat up in the coming years.


----------



## peapie

This is my first post so please forgive me if I'm not doing this right, but I'm interested to know if there are any other single site Points-based VOI owners out there frustrated about this aspect.  I have already reserved (with some of my Nanea points) a week at Nanea in a 1br (we have points for a 2) in 2023 and would LIKE to use the remainder to convert to club points for a stay on Kauai and the Marriott VC there on Poipu beach.  But based on below I don't think I can.  Am I reading that right?  Any other suggestions for places to stay on Kauai?  I think the Kauai Sheraton Club (which is NOT on the beach) or the Westin Princeville are my only options?  Thx for any help!

Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.


----------



## iowaguy09

peapie said:


> This is my first post so please forgive me if I'm not doing this right, but I'm interested to know if there are any other single site Points-based VOI owners out there frustrated about this aspect.  I have already reserved (with some of my Nanea points) a week at Nanea in a 1br (we have points for a 2) in 2023 and would LIKE to use the remainder to convert to club points for a stay on Kauai and the Marriott VC there on Poipu beach.  But based on below I don't think I can.  Am I reading that right?  Any other suggestions for places to stay on Kauai?  I think the Kauai Sheraton Club (which is NOT on the beach) or the Westin Princeville are my only options?  Thx for any help!
> 
> Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.


What exactly is your ownership?  It is not clear from your post.


----------



## Eric B

iowaguy09 said:


> What exactly is your ownership?  It is not clear from your post.



My guess would be a VOI in points for a 2 BR week at Nanea based on this:



peapie said:


> I have already reserved (with some of my Nanea points) a week at Nanea in a 1br (we have points for a 2) in 2023


----------



## kozykritter

peapie said:


> This is my first post so please forgive me if I'm not doing this right, but I'm interested to know if there are any other single site Points-based VOI owners out there frustrated about this aspect.  I have already reserved (with some of my Nanea points) a week at Nanea in a 1br (we have points for a 2) in 2023 and would LIKE to use the remainder to convert to club points for a stay on Kauai and the Marriott VC there on Poipu beach.  But based on below I don't think I can.  Am I reading that right?  Any other suggestions for places to stay on Kauai?  I think the Kauai Sheraton Club (which is NOT on the beach) or the Westin Princeville are my only options?  Thx for any help!
> 
> Owners of Points-based VOIs are able to elect to receive Club Points for the VOI in its entirety, or may elect to receive Club Points in increments of 20,000 Home Options. Although, for certain single site Points-Based VOIs such as Coral Vista, Sunset Bay, and Nanea, the entire Home Option VOI must be elected to receive Club Points.


You are reading it correctly. In order to do what you would like to do in Abound you would have to own Flex instead since those options are not tied to week or a single property. This comes straight from the Abound exchange procedures document. However, another owner with Nanea options said in that in Interval, you can actually do partial amounts similar to Flex so you could book the week you want and then use the other home options in Interval.


----------



## dr.debs

dioxide45 said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Here are instructions on how to do the webinar.
> _Sign in to your account, then:
> --> click on "Helpful Tools" under "RESOURCES" at the top of the page
> --> scroll down and click on the "Ownership Webinar" box at the bottom
> --> click "yes" if you get a pop-up box asking if it's okay to leave the page, and you should land on the InsiderFoundations / Owner Learning Center page
> --> scroll down to the last video, "Understanding the Benefits of Enrolling Webinar" and note the small print just above it: Owners who reside in the U.S. whose weeks were purchased by June 20, 2010, will be offered free enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program after viewing this entire presentation.<<_


Thank you ! I will try today!


----------



## dsmrp

At WDW now, and went to an owner update today.
The salesperson's main strategy was to sell us a smaller amount of trust points, 1000 or 2000,
but I didn't believe the reasons she gave for why we should buy trust points:
1.  Vistana owners electing Abound points, won't be able to see or reserve what is available in the MVC trust without having trust points.
     Abound exchange will only have 6% of all available inventory, mainly from legacy weeks owners.
     The trust will hold 94% of inventory.  All of unsold Vistana inventory, including Flex shares, was put into the MVC trust.
     Didn't @SueDonJ say in several threads (which I can't find now  ) that insisting owners needing trust points
     was a sales tactic based on a lie?
1a.  The 13 month booking window applies for inventory in the trust.

2.  We're 3* elite but will only get Select level (not Executive) due to the number of Abound points our VOIs will get.
     Per saleswoman, we need to "_be deeded to the trust_" to be grandfathered in to the Executive level.
     She used that phrase several times, and the Marriott supervisor who came in at the end used the phrase too.
     I pressed her on the Vistana elite levels being mapped to Executive, Presidential and Chairman, respectively,
     but she kept insisting that we'd only be Select, and needed to buy 2000 pts to get to Executive.
     I countered that the grandfather map was posted on the Vistana site, under FAQs etc.
     After some back and forth and pointed questions, she spun it that we might be Executive at the beginning of the
     program, but would quickly be put back to Select when Marriott changes the benefit levels.
     I couldn't quite remember all the details of the posted website info, but after our mtg re-read that the OBL  would be retained
     for as long as we maintained our total #  of Abound pts at the time of program roll-out.

     I do believe that Marriott will change the OBL levels or introduce another level since there will be so many Vistana owners
     qualifying for those higher levels, e.g. chairmans.

And here's the most contradictory statement she/Sales made.  Please don't kill the messenger 
3.  Mandatory resale owners will not be allowed to participate in Abound if they hadn't requalified or bought flex points before August 9.
She was quite insistent on this, said all of Sales at WDW had been informed and were correcting owners at update mtgs.
The sales supervisor (a long term Marriott sales person) came in at the end with points prices.  I wanted him to confirm about
mandatory resales in Abound, but since we weren't interested in buying he cut his time short with us and avoided answering.
I brought up to our main salesperson about mandatory resale owners seeing Vistana elite statuses on their accounts now,
and that really surprised her.  She said she had to ask her supervisors about that one.

After I related my experience with Hyatt portfolio points small points package, the supervisor did confirm that
the long term goal is for Abound to be the one and only existing point system.  Everything even Hyatt, eventually translates into Abound.
IMO reduce VSN by attrition, lack of inventory.

The current trust point price is $15.58/point and MF is $0.63/pt.
My current MF cost on my units are about $0.40/pt, not including club fee.

Edit:  we did buy an Encore package with the closer, because they extended usage to 24 months rather than 18, and we could use it.
The cost wasn't too bad.  However point price guarantee is 18 months.


----------



## kozykritter

Thanks for the report! Here's a few thoughts on each bullet...

1. Though those percentages are way off, what they are telling you there is technically true and procedurally false. If Marriott followed their own guidelines, only those with purchased trust points would be able to access trust inventory and the only thing in Abound would mainly be inventory from elected points. However Marriott as a practice has always made trust inventory available to the internal MVC Exchange Company (aka Abound) to be booked with elected points as early as 13 months out. They could change that in the future but the chances of it happening seem slim to none.

As far as viewing availability, if you want to see specific availability for a date, unit size and view, you have to have the points up front. However you can still pick a specific date and see generic information about unit sizes starting at x points. This is one area where it helps a bit to be a Marriott points owner because your future year points sit in your account (so you can borrow them at will) and may help you to see specific availability information whereas someone electing points annually won't have those future points automatically hanging around in advance. They will likely only have any unused points from a previous year's election, bonus and/or rented points which may or may not be enough to get specific details during a particular search. Remember, though, you can elect future years Vistana ownership to Abound/Club points up to 25 months ahead of time (someone check me on exact timeframe), though we don't know if you'd still have to pay Vistana the MFs in advance like you do now to borrow (Marriott owners don't have this same requirement).

2. Complete BS as far as everything we've been told in the FAQs. The purpose of grandfathering is to protect you from changes going forward unless/until you change something about your ownership yourself that drops your point level. Grandfathering is not an absolute right so Marriott could take it away from owners at any point but it just seems highly unlikely they would take such a draconian action against owners. Otherwise why grant it to begin with?

3. That whole mandatory resale thing has been the linchpin of their sales effort since they did the soft launch back in March and they seem to not want to let it go since it likely yields big results per their latest quarterly sales reports. We think we know everything we need to know about the resales from the FAQs and subsequent emails and it's possible there may be a surprise or two coming but I doubt they would backtrack on those big announcements.

I believe you are quoting the discounted point price for the amount of points they offered you. The current undiscounted price has been reported at $16.40 per point. 2023 MFs are projected at .68 per point based upon their 2023 budget.


----------



## timsi

dsmrp said:


> At WDW now, and went to an owner update today.
> The salesperson's main strategy was to sell us a smaller amount of trust points, 1000 or 2000,
> but I didn't believe the reasons she gave for why we should buy trust points:
> 1.  Vistana owners electing Abound points, won't be able to see or reserve what is available in the MVC trust without having trust points.
> Abound exchange will only have 6% of all available inventory, mainly from legacy weeks owners.
> The trust will hold 94% of inventory.  All of unsold Vistana inventory, including Flex shares, was put into the MVC trust.
> Didn't @SueDonJ say in several threads (which I can't find now  ) that insisting owners needing trust points
> was a sales tactic based on a lie?
> 1a.  The 13 month booking window applies for inventory in the trust.


Indeed, the trust inventory should be separate from the exchange inventory. Maybe it was not strictly enforced in the past, but it should be enforced now because Vistana must pretend that the home resort reservation priority isn’t circumvented. They still have a problem because the Marriott trust won’t compete for the Vistana inventory like all the other Vistana resort owners and that should not be legal.

Of course, the reps are still wrong in theory, the 1,000 trust points they want to sell should not really help change the capability of all the elected points in the Abound account. If you own 1,000 trust points and deposit Vistana weeks' worth 10,000 points, you should only be able to book the trust inventory with the 1,000 trust points and use the 10,000 points for Abound exchanges.

Abound is very complex because they want to force access to the Vistana resorts 12 months before check in. If you read between the lines, they are also trying to make the buckets communicate in real time according to the principle of connected vessels. Seemingly identical weeks will come from different Vistana buckets and according to resort rules they cannot be accessed by everyone during the home resort reservation period. We will see if they can get the algorithm right when they launch and when they make adjustments.  What are the odds it is going to be smooth sailing?


----------



## SueDonJ

dsmrp said:


> At WDW now, and went to an owner update today.
> The salesperson's main strategy was to sell us a smaller amount of trust points, 1000 or 2000,
> but I didn't believe the reasons she gave for why we should buy trust points:
> 1.  Vistana owners electing Abound points, won't be able to see or reserve what is available in the MVC trust without having trust points.
> Abound exchange will only have 6% of all available inventory, mainly from legacy weeks owners.
> The trust will hold 94% of inventory.  All of unsold Vistana inventory, including Flex shares, was put into the MVC trust.
> Didn't @SueDonJ say in several threads (which I can't find now  ) that insisting owners needing trust points
> was a sales tactic based on a lie?


I'm sure there are quite a few posts from me that say something to the effect of "sales people lie," although I don't often say it in such blunt terms. My thinking has always been that most salespeople don't have a working knowledge _as owners, _so they're likely to misunderstand and misrepresent training manual info. But with respect to access to Trust inventory I have been clear since the DC inception:

(from the Marriott forum points-system FAQ)
*Technically*_, in compliance with the governing documents, DC Trust Members have direct access to inventory in the DC Trust as well as inventory available through the DC Exchange Company; and, DC Exchange Members have direct access to only the inventory that's available through the DC Exchange Company.  *Functionally*, it appears that Marriott is managing inventory such that a few select high-demand intervals are available only from the Trust at the 13-months Reservation Window, then at the 12-months Reservation Window most intervals are made available through the Exchange Company. Effectively, it appears that inventory is currently being managed by Marriott such that the technical v. functional legal aspects are practically nullified with respect to the overwhelming majority of available intervals._

The reason that functionality exists is, Marriott is able to manipulate inventory from all sources into and out of the DC/Abound Exchange Company. Minus that manipulation it would be correct to say that Trust intervals can only be booked using purchased Trust Points. If I were to attend a sales presentation, which I won't because the amount of misinformation they spew is incredibly frustrating, but if I did I'd ask them what they know about inventory being manipulated through the Exchange Company.



dsmrp said:


> 1a.  The 13 month booking window applies for inventory in the trust.



Speaking only about the way the DC/Abound has functioned with respect to Marriott intervals, booking windows are determined by status levels, which are determined by the combined number of (purchased) Trust Points AND Exchange Points (from enrolled Weeks) for which a member is eligible. (See this Benefits At A Glance chart.) I don't own Trust Points, have access to only Exchange Points from my enrolled Weeks, and I'm eligible for - and have used multiple times - the 13-mos window.

I'm waiting along with everyone else to see how Vistana inventory will be manipulated/will function in the DC/Abound, but I believe that any Vistana intervals that can be made available at the 13-mos window (meaning, no contractual constraints exist that will prohibit it) will be similarly manipulated by Marriott through the DC/Abound Exchange Company at the earliest possible dates.


----------



## SueDonJ

timsi said:


> Indeed, the trust inventory should be separate from the exchange inventory. Maybe it was not strictly enforced in the past, but it should be enforced now because Vistana must pretend that the home resort reservation priority isn’t circumvented. They still have a problem because the Marriott trust won’t compete for the Vistana inventory like all the other Vistana resort owners and that should not be legal.


From what I've read here on TUG I agree with all of you that it appears Marriott faces some constraints in manipulating inventory if/where a unique reservation priority is written into the governing docs. But that constraint should exist with all affected intervals, shouldn't it, and not only those conveyed to the Trust? I don't see that they'd be required to strictly enforce it by confining those intervals to only the DC/Abound Trust, because it would be a simple matter to code those intervals on the back end so as to prevent them being released from any bucket any earlier than they should be released.



timsi said:


> Of course, the reps are still wrong in theory, the 1,000 trust points they want to sell should not really help change the capability of all the elected points in the Abound account. If you own 1,000 trust points and deposit Vistana weeks' worth 10,000 points, you should only be able to book the trust inventory with the 1,000 trust points and use the 10,000 points for Abound exchanges.



This is exactly correct but it's one of the strongest talking points that have taken hold since the DC/Abound inception. No matter what they say, it is 100% correct that purchasing Trust Points IN NO WAY "supercharges" (which is the term most often used by Marriott salespeople) Exchange Points such that they can be used to book intervals directly from the DC/Abound Trust. It simply cannot happen.


----------



## TravelTime

I own trust points and weeks I can convert to points. They function the same. Marriott has told me they function the same.


----------



## timsi

TravelTime said:


> I own trust points and weeks I can convert to points. They function the same. Marriott has told me they function the same.


It seems in reality they are mixing the buckets. It also seems the Marriott week owners did not care much about that, and the practice was not challenged. This is changing now that Vistana will be part of the mix and they will have to make sure they separate the two. Remember, the Vistana resorts have very strong protection during the home resort reservation period.


----------



## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> I own trust points and weeks I can convert to points. They function the same. Marriott has told me they function the same.


They do function the same with respect to determining your status and using them to book intervals through the DC/Abound Exchange Company. They don't function the same with respect to booking intervals that are available only through the DC/Abound Trust, but the reason that constraint isn't blatantly obvious is because of Marriott's ability to manipulate Trust-conveyed intervals through the Exchange Company. For our purposes, it's a seamless manipulation that appears to happen in real time when reservation requests are made (which is why I believe that back-end coding is utilized to a great extent.) But there are few and rare instances when intervals are not released from the Trust into the Exchange Company - and those rare instances can be seen when a Trust Member using only Trust Points is able to book something that is not available using Exchange Points.


----------



## timsi

SueDonJ said:


> From what I've read here on TUG I agree with all of you that it appears Marriott faces some constraints in manipulating inventory if/where a unique reservation priority is written into the governing docs. But that constraint should exist with all affected intervals, shouldn't it, and not only those conveyed to the Trust? I don't see that they'd be required to strictly enforce it by confining those intervals to only the DC/Abound Trust, because it would be a simple matter to code those intervals on the back end so as to prevent them being released from any bucket any earlier than they should be released.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly correct but it's one of the strongest talking points that have taken hold since the DC/Abound inception. No matter what they say, it is 100% correct that purchasing Trust Points IN NO WAY "supercharges" (which is the term most often used by Marriott salespeople) Exchange Points such that they can be used to book intervals directly from the DC/Abound Trust. It simply cannot happen.


With the units conveyed to the trust they have an even bigger problem if they allow the MVC trust preferential access to the Vistana inventory. During the home resort reservation period all owners should compete fairly for the inventory. Nobody (individuals, trusts etc)  should be allowed to book more than one unit at the time or given reservation tools that are not available to all.


----------



## SueDonJ

timsi said:


> It seems in reality they are mixing the buckets. It also seems the Marriott week owners did not care much about that, and the practice was not challenged. This is changing now that Vistana will be part of the mix and they will have to make sure they separate the two. Remember, the Vistana resorts have very strong protection during the home resort reservation period.


I don't know where you get that Marriott Weeks Owners don't like that the buckets are "mixed?" They don't mix every interval, only those that they control and those that Weeks Owners elect for non-home usage. I'm an enrolled Weeks Owner and I LOVE the manipulation they do that opens up my usage options and gives me better exchange value than II ever did!

As an extreme example, say a single resort has 100 Weeks with all being sold and all owners being in compliance with the Reservation Rules and NOT electing something other than home usage - not one of those 100 Weeks can be released/manipulated by Marriott for use by anyone except those owners. We haven't ever seen any indication that Marriott is playing fast and loose with Marriott Weeks inventory and I don't expect it'll be seen after the Vistana integration, either.


----------



## SueDonJ

timsi said:


> With the units conveyed to the trust they have an even bigger problem if they allow the MVC trust preferential access to the inventory. During the home resort reservation period all owners should compete fairly for the inventory. Nobody (individuals, trusts etc)  should be allowed to book more than one unit at the time or given reservation tools that are not available to all.


What I expect is that if you're correct and it would be a cut-and-dried contractual violation of Owners' rights for Marriott to manipulate any certain intervals, it won't be done. Inventory violations are probably the Number One factor that would damage a timeshare company's business to the extent that it would have to cease to function, and Marriott understands that more than any of us do. They don't need to break the rules in order to ensure success of the DC/Abound, and they have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders that keeps them in check.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dsmrp. Thanks for sharing. What bald-faced lies!

Re: mandatory in Abound. I would have shown them the official email and rules shared by @kozykritter from corp that says we will be in Abound as a resale mandatory (non-requal). 

Besides, if there is any question why buy now until you are certain a month from now. What is the rush?


----------



## kozykritter

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dsmrp. Thanks for sharing. What bald-faced lies!
> 
> Re: mandatory in Abound. I would have shown them the official email and rules shared by @kozykritter from corp that says we will be in Abound as a resale mandatory (non-requal).
> 
> Besides, if there is any question why buy now until you are certain a month from now. What is the rush?


We can be almost certain that they told the OP that the price was going up to $20+ any day now


----------



## timsi

SueDonJ said:


> As an extreme example, say a single resort has 100 Weeks with all being sold and all owners being in compliance with the Reservation Rules and NOT electing something other than home usage - not one of those 100 Weeks can be released/manipulated by Marriott for use by anyone except those owners. We haven't ever seen any indication that Marriott is playing fast and loose with Marriott Weeks inventory, and I don't expect it'll be seen after the Vistana integration, either.


Your example does not exist in reality, so it is impossible to evaluate. Also, you would not know the number of units released at 12 months for the deeded owners. All you could see is that units are available, but you would not know if you had access to 100 or just 50 units. 

The fact that the trust points and the week points can see the same inventory (as frequently reported on TUG) is a clear indication of inventory "bleeding". How they do it is secondary especially since there are no rules made public so all we can do is speculate about the methods.


----------



## Ken555

kozykritter said:


> We can be almost certain that they told the OP that the price was going up to $20+ any day now



Again, timeshares sales can only sell based on fear.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## timsi

SueDonJ said:


> What I expect is that if you're correct and it would be a cut-and-dried contractual violation of Owners' rights for Marriott to manipulate any certain intervals, it won't be done. Inventory violations are probably the Number One factor that would damage a timeshare company's business to the extent that it would have to cease to function, and Marriott understands that more than any of us do. They don't need to break the rules in order to ensure success of the DC/Abound, and they have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders that keeps them in check.


It remains to be seen what will happen, I am afraid that ship has sailed the moment they announced that the Vistana resorts will be available in Abound 12 months before check in.

They are probably in the middle of a huge conundrum. The liability you mention is real and cannot be ignored because it can cripple them; at the same time the details of the program are already on their site and any change will further damage their credibility, not a good thing for a company of their size (or any company).  As you say, the “survival” instinct should prevail although we all know that pride has sunk ships in the past.


----------



## TravelTime

SueDonJ said:


> They do function the same with respect to determining your status and using them to book intervals through the DC/Abound Exchange Company. They don't function the same with respect to booking intervals that are available only through the DC/Abound Trust, but the reason that constraint isn't blatantly obvious is because of Marriott's ability to manipulate Trust-conveyed intervals through the Exchange Company. For our purposes, it's a seamless manipulation that appears to happen in real time when reservation requests are made (which is why I believe that back-end coding is utilized to a great extent.) But there are few and rare instances when intervals are not released from the Trust into the Exchange Company - and those rare instances can be seen when a Trust Member using only Trust Points is able to book something that is not available using Exchange Points.



That is interesting bc I have always been able to book what I want with both types of points. I guess if that stops being true, I will start to notice.


----------



## SueDonJ

timsi said:


> Your example does not exist in reality, so it is impossible to evaluate. Also, you would not know the number of units released at 12 months for the deeded owners. All you could see is that units are available, but you would not know if you had access to 100 or just 50 units.
> 
> The fact that the trust points and the week points can see the same inventory (as frequently reported on TUG) is a clear indication of inventory "bleeding". How they do it is secondary especially since there are no rules made public so all we can do is speculate about the methods.


Do you own Marriott Weeks? I ask because you're rehashing old talking points that we (Marriott owners) have pretty much deciphered over more than a decade of experience with the DC/Abound using both (purchased) Trust Points and Exchange Points (from enrolled/elected Weeks.)

It's true that the overwhelming majority of intervals are available to DC/Abound members using either/or Trust or Exchange Points. As has been said that's a result of the system appearing to be functioning in real time on an as-requested basis such that intervals can be manipulated through the Exchange Company in real time. But it's not an absolute! There have also been rare instances reported to TUG when members using Exchange Points or a combination of Trust and Exchange Points CANNOT see the same availability as members using only Trust Points, and that's because there are inventory controls that prevent, for a variety of reasons, every interval being manipulated through the Exchange Company.

It's also worth noting that the rules for Vistana members aren't public yet because the system isn't finalized for Vistana owners yet. But the rules for Marriott owners are public and available in the governing docs that were released when the system came online. It's all legalese which of course makes for some difficulty in deciphering the rules, but you don't have to be a rocket scientists to slog your way through. We're all one step ahead just by participating in these threads on TUG because the collective knowledge here is unmatched anywhere!

The example I used was deliberately extreme in order to simplify a possible constraint on why an interval might not be available for DC Members. Of course we don't know the number of intervals released into every bucket or the parameters of coding that serve to make Marriott's timeshare inventory controls work the way they should. In all the years prior to the points system there were also talking points that made their business practices suspect (one such persistent talking point being that Marriott favored multi-Weeks owners by releasing more than the contractually-allowed 50% of available intervals at the 13-mos window.) The bottom line, though, is that none of the suspicions pertaining to mismanaged inventory controls were ever proven to be true - not here on TUG and more importantly, not in any of the lawsuits that have been filed against Marriott over the years.

Will they risk their entire business simply to gain the relatively few Vistana owners (as compared to the larger base of Marriott owners) that might choose to play in the Abound sandbox? Sure, anything's possible. But there's nothing in their history that should lead any of us to believe that it's their intent to do so. Insinuating that there are valid reasons to expect that Marriott will screw over Vistana owners is, quite frankly, insulting to the many, many longtime Marriott owners who aren't exactly stupid when it comes to their ownerships.


----------



## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> That is interesting bc I have always been able to book what I want with both types of points. I guess if that stops being true, I will start to notice.


I wouldn't expect it to start happening any more often than it already does. It's a rare occurrence and mostly limited to the period on and immediately after the 13-months Reservation Window opening for highest-demand inventory, likely a protective measure to ensure that Trust Members are not short-changed the Trust-conveyed inventory to which they should have priority access.


----------



## dsmrp

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dsmrp. Thanks for sharing. What bald-faced lies!
> 
> Re: mandatory in Abound. I would have shown them the official email and rules shared by @kozykritter from corp that says we will be in Abound as a resale mandatory (non-requal).
> 
> Besides, if there is any question why buy now until you are certain a month from now. What is the rush?


Oh,, I forgot about the email which mandatory owners got. I would have liked to have shown saleswoman the Vistana website posted articles on mandatory resales and elite/OBL grandfathering, but it would have prolonged our mtg time, and DH doesn't like to go to these mtgs to begin with....She seemed a seasoned sales person, however not with Vistana or Marriott, as she had only moved to Palm Desert area last year. So likely just going with the standard sales book.

We don't have mandatory units but it came up in discussion about elite levels.

We went to mtg mainly to get printout, confirmation on the Abound pts worth of our units. She wouldn't give us printout, but did bring up lookup app of what our units are worth by resort, section , season and frequency.  We took pictures of the screen.  It matched what we were told in July.

Thanks all for your comments and replies. We're not going to buy, altho' I got the encore pkg as a hedge. Will be able to use regardless.


----------



## timsi

SueDonJ said:


> Do you own Marriott Weeks? I ask because you're rehashing old talking points that we (Marriott owners) have pretty much deciphered over more than a decade of experience with the DC/Abound using both (purchased) Trust Points and Exchange Points (from enrolled/elected Weeks.)
> 
> It's true that the overwhelming majority of intervals are available to DC/Abound members using either/or Trust or Exchange Points. As has been said that's a result of the system appearing to be functioning in real time on an as-requested basis such that intervals can be manipulated through the Exchange Company in real time. But it's not an absolute! There have also been rare instances reported to TUG when members using Exchange Points or a combination of Trust and Exchange Points CANNOT see the same availability as members using only Trust Points, and that's because there are inventory controls that prevent, for a variety of reasons, every interval being manipulated through the Exchange Company.
> 
> It's also worth noting that the rules for Vistana members aren't public yet because the system isn't finalized for Vistana owners yet. But the rules for Marriott owners are public and available in the governing docs that were released when the system came online. It's all legalese which of course makes for some difficulty in deciphering the rules, but you don't have to be a rocket scientists to slog your way through. We're all one step ahead just by participating in these threads on TUG because the collective knowledge here is unmatched anywhere!
> 
> The example I used was deliberately extreme in order to simplify a possible constraint on why an interval might not be available for DC Members. Of course we don't know the number of intervals released into every bucket or the parameters of coding that serve to make Marriott's timeshare inventory controls work the way they should. In all the years prior to the points system there were also talking points that made their business practices suspect (one such persistent talking point being that Marriott favored multi-Weeks owners by releasing more than the contractually-allowed 50% of available intervals at the 13-mos window.) The bottom line, though, is that none of the suspicions pertaining to mismanaged inventory controls were ever proven to be true - not here on TUG and more importantly, not in any of the lawsuits that have been filed against Marriott over the years.
> 
> Will they risk their entire business simply to gain the relatively few Vistana owners (as compared to the larger base of Marriott owners) that might choose to play in the Abound sandbox? Sure, anything's possible. But there's nothing in their history that should lead any of us to believe that it's their intent to do so. Insinuating that there are valid reasons to expect that Marriott will screw over Vistana owners is, quite frankly, insulting to the many, many longtime Marriott owners who aren't exactly stupid when it comes to their ownerships.


The Marriott owners seem to have a conditioned reflex to refer to 2010 but each case must be judged by its own merits. The company is different, at the time it was Marriott International that was calling the shots. The Marriott resorts had no internal trading program, and it is possible they did not have strong language in their CCR’s to protect them from exchangers during the home resort reservation period.

Have you seen at the Marriott resorts you own language like this: “13.1. Reservation Windows. The Home Resort Reservation Period *must permit a Member to request a reservation, without competition from anyone who is not assigned a Vacation Ownership Interest* in a Vacation Unit that is the same Unit Type as the Member’s Unit Type and for any Vacation Period in the same Season as the Member’s Vacation Week”?

Or: “13.7. Amendment. This Article may not be amended without a vote of at least 90% of the votes of each class of Members.”

As you can see, Vistana may be a very different environment than the virgin ground they used  in 2010 to build MVC.
I also did not see anywhere in our resort rules that the developer does not have to stand in line and compete with the other owners. 

I do not agree that the division of the Marriott inventory is based on public, detailed procedures, at least I did not see any. Let’s take for example a resort with 100 units:  10 owned directly by the developer, 10 owned by the trust and 80 owned by the deeded owners. Can you please reference the rules they use to divide week 1 of the calendar year for the 3 buckets? How about week 10 or 28? Not what Tuggers think should happen, but the actual written rules.


----------



## teddyo333

teddyo333 said:


> Based off of the information given I think that the only change will be with "Example 3." These units will have automatic access to Abound as well as gain elite status. When we attended a presentation in April at WKORV we were initially informed that we would significant amount of Destination points (23,625 points) with the number of units that we owned but when we looked at the documentation closely we noticed that only 11,650 points were enrolled. This amount correlated to the points that were associated with the mandatory units. It appears as that the Marriott is using that as a guideline to determine the number of Abound points to grant an account and associate the appropriate elite level. I've included a copy of the document below. Please note that all of these units were purchased resale and/or transferred to us for free by a tugger. The "Contract Price" is what the original cost of the units were when purchased by the first/previous owner:
> View attachment 63445View attachment 63446




I just checked the MVC app on my iPad and the amount of points associated with my existing MVC account went from 0 to 14250.This also means that the point allocation that was shown to me during our tour back in April is 100% accurate. They did include the additional purchase I made this summer even though it was not officially enrolled in VSN unit 9/2/22. I submitted the request to the title department on 7/14/22 so I guess they based enrollment on when it was submitted to the title department and not on when the title department completed their process. My points allocation is as follows:

Vistana Villages Key West - 2 Bedroom - Annual - (Platinum 81K SO) = 2725 Abound Points
Vistana Villages Bella - 2 Bedroom - Annual - (Gold Plus 67K SO) = 2350 Abound Points
Westin Kierland - 1 Bedroom Premium - Annual - (Platinum Plus 81K SO) = 2600 Abound Points
Westin Kierland - 1 Bedroom Premium - Annual - (Platinum Plus 81K SO) = 2600 Abound Points
Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort - 1 Bedroom Premium - Annual - (Platinum Plus 81K SO) = 3975 Abound Points
Total Abound Points = 14250


----------



## DanCali

teddyo333 said:


> I just checked the MVC app on my iPad and the amount of points associated with my existing MVC account went from 0 to 14250.




Oh wow - I never realized this feature existed!

I also see it reflecting my WKV ownership (but not HRA). At over 35,000 points...

Can't wait for the new XXXXXXX Elite Level! Maybe I'll get back the 12pm checkout I lost with the 5-Star Elite level death...

P.S. With 14,250 points you should get invited to lots of presentations where they will try to get you to Chairman. Check out the benefits though - the difference between Presidential and Chairman is minimal.


----------



## sponger76

Does anybody who owns Sheraton Flex (or Westin Flex/Aventuras for that matter) who also owns MVC seeing points added in MVC for those?


----------



## kozykritter

sponger76 said:


> Does anybody who owns Sheraton Flex (or Westin Flex/Aventuras for that matter) who also owns MVC seeing points added in MVC for those?


I own Sheraton Flex and MVC points. No bump up yet from Owner to Select in MVC (or to Executive when they do the Vistana 3* elite mapping). I'm checking every day.


----------



## jabberwocky

How many digits is the MVC number?  I see a VSN Customer Code on my owner profile sheet from our sales presentation, but also an 8-digit “OTM Cust Code”. Would that be our corresponding MVC number?


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> How many digits is the MVC number?  I see a VSN Customer Code on my owner profile sheet from our sales presentation, but also an 8-digit “OTM Cust Code”. Would that be our corresponding MVC number?


Our numbers are seven digits, but it is possible they have had to expand the number of digits since we became MVC owners in 2007. I have that same sheet but right now we are traveling and I only have a version that has that OTM Cust Code redacted, so I can't see if it matches our owner number on the MVC side. I will be back home tomorrow and can check an unredacted version to confirm.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> How many digits is the MVC number?  I see a VSN Customer Code on my owner profile sheet from our sales presentation, but also an 8-digit “OTM Cust Code”. Would that be our corresponding MVC number?


I can tell you for sure that that is your MVC customer number. That eight digit number was in the same OTM spot on my tour sheet the day that I bought my MVC points and it is the owner number showing on my MVC account now.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you for sure that that is your MVC customer number. That eight digit number was in the same OTM spot on my tour sheet the day that I bought my MVC points and it is the owner number showing on my MVC account now.


But do we know if a pure Vistana owner can use it to setup a MVC web profile yet?


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> But do we know if a pure Vistana owner can use it to setup a MVC web profile yet?


I just tried the “Connect Ownership” option in the Marriott App and get an “Account not Found” error. It looks like they don’t have it set up for us Vistana only owners yet.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you for sure that that is your MVC customer number. That eight digit number was in the same OTM spot on my tour sheet the day that I bought my MVC points and it is the owner number showing on my MVC account now.


Thanks for confirming!


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I just tried the “Connect Ownership” option in the Marriott App and get an “Account not Found” error. It looks like they don’t have it set up for us Vistana only owners yet.


I doubt they would make it active until Abound is launched because there's no need for it until then.


----------



## bigbillf

sponger76 said:


> Does anybody who owns Sheraton Flex (or Westin Flex/Aventuras for that matter) who also owns MVC seeing points added in MVC for those?


I don't own MVC...... But the conversion tracker database shows Sheraton Flex at 34.24.


----------



## lily28

i own both marriott and vistana timeshare.  where do you see the points at mvc site? i can’t find it.


----------



## VacationForever

lily28 said:


> i own both marriott and vistana timeshare.  where do you see the points at mvc site? i can’t find it.


If you are referring to combined Abound points, apparently you can see it from the Apple mobile app.  I tried on both my Android tablet and Android phone, when clicked to show ownership, it would show the following page but no point or ownership level and the app would subsequently crash.


----------



## lily28

i try to access the info at marriott app using my iphone but it says problem loading the page


----------



## triangulum33

Is there a table showing how many Abound points the Marriott properties are worth?  I'm sorry if it has already been posted, but this thread is really long.  I'm specifically curious about the value of Marriott Waiohai Beach Club.


----------



## dioxide45

triangulum33 said:


> Is there a table showing how many Abound points the Marriott properties are worth?  I'm sorry if it has already been posted, but this thread is really long.  I'm specifically curious about the value of Marriott Waiohai Beach Club.


Do you want to know how much it costs to book Marriott Waiohai Beach Club or how many points a Marriott Waiohai Beach Club owner gets for their week?


----------



## triangulum33

dioxide45 said:


> Do you want to know how much it costs to book Marriott Waiohai Beach Club or how many points a Marriott Waiohai Beach Club owner gets for their week?


How many Abound points it takes to book Waiohai.   Thanks!


----------



## dioxide45

triangulum33 said:


> How many Abound points it takes to book Waiohai.   Thanks!


Here are the Marriott point charts.


			https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf


----------



## triangulum33

Thanks @dioxide45 
How would one know how many Abound points their floating week is worth such as our WKORN IV lockoff?
Sorry for the basic questions, but this thread is so long and full of...stuff.


----------



## The Colorado Kid

triangulum33 said:


> Thanks @dioxide45
> How would one know how many Abound points their floating week is worth such as our WKORN IV lockoff?
> Sorry for the basic questions, but this thread is so long and full of...stuff.


Learning all the time...what is "IV" in your ownership description?


----------



## triangulum33

The Colorado Kid said:


> Learning all the time...what is "IV" in your ownership description?


Island View (the slum)


----------



## bigbillf

triangulum33 said:


> Thanks @dioxide45
> How would one know how many Abound points their floating week is worth such as our WKORN IV lockoff?
> Sorry for the basic questions, but this thread is so long and full of...stuff.



Assuming you are looking for how many Abound points you would receive for electing your VOI for use in Abound.  Right now I believe that is still to be determined. There is a post (labeled ...Conversion Tracker) that contains how to get a good estimate and see what others have posted on theirs. It depends on where you own, what you own and what season.... From the Vistana FAQ

Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.


----------



## dioxide45

triangulum33 said:


> Thanks @dioxide45
> How would one know how many Abound points their floating week is worth such as our WKORN IV lockoff?
> Sorry for the basic questions, but this thread is so long and full of...stuff.
> You keep moving the goalposts    See the link below.





bigbillf said:


> Assuming you are looking for how many Abound points you would receive for electing your VOI for use in Abound.  Right now I believe that is still to be determined. There is a post (labeled ...Conversion Tracker) that contains how to get a good estimate and see what others have posted on theirs. It depends on where you own, what you own and what season.... From the Vistana FAQ
> 
> Election values will be based upon what you own. The number of Club Points you will receive for your eligible VOI(s) depends on factors such as the size of accommodation, location, and time of year owned, with Platinum Season VOIs generally having a greater number of Club Points than Silver Season VOIs.



People have been reporting what they have been told their VOIs will elect for in this thread;








						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## jeffm211

Went to an Owners Update today.  Short story is our Vistana ownerships will enroll us in Abound at the Chairman level.  Sales offer was for us to purchase 1,000 Club Points in order to gain access to Trust inventory, otherwise electing Club Points for our VOIs in Abound will be relegated to Exchange inventory.  Additionally, thought I heard that a minimum purchase of Club Points was necessary to access vacation homes, tours, cruises, Ritz-Carlton VC inventory, etc.  In essence, buying 1,000 Club Points grandfathers in elected Club Points to the Trust inventory.  Based on some reading in this forum, that sounds like a sales pitch and the purchase isn't necessary to obtain these benefits.  Can anyone confirm?  I don't really need the additional points, but some of the travel options available in Abound/MVC are attractive.  Thanks.


----------



## vacationtime1

jeffm211 said:


> Went to an Owners Update today.  Short story is our Vistana ownerships will enroll us in Abound at the Chairman level.  Sales offer was for us to purchase 1,000 Club Points in order to gain access to Trust inventory, otherwise electing Club Points for our VOIs in Abound will be relegated to Exchange inventory.  Additionally, thought I heard that a minimum purchase of Club Points was necessary to access vacation homes, tours, cruises, Ritz-Carlton VC inventory, etc.  In essence, buying 1,000 Club Points grandfathers in elected Club Points to the Trust inventory.  *Based on some reading in this forum, that sounds like a sales pitch and the purchase isn't necessary to obtain these benefits.  Can anyone confirm?  *I don't really need the additional points, but some of the travel options available in Abound/MVC are attractive.  Thanks.


Yes, we can confirm that this is sales bullsh*t.


----------



## kozykritter

jeffm211 said:


> Went to an Owners Update today.  Short story is our Vistana ownerships will enroll us in Abound at the Chairman level.  Sales offer was for us to purchase 1,000 Club Points in order to gain access to Trust inventory, otherwise electing Club Points for our VOIs in Abound will be relegated to Exchange inventory.  Additionally, thought I heard that a minimum purchase of Club Points was necessary to access vacation homes, tours, cruises, Ritz-Carlton VC inventory, etc.  In essence, buying 1,000 Club Points grandfathers in elected Club Points to the Trust inventory.  Based on some reading in this forum, that sounds like a sales pitch and the purchase isn't necessary to obtain these benefits.  Can anyone confirm?  I don't really need the additional points, but some of the travel options available in Abound/MVC are attractive.  Thanks.


Though technically what they said about trust inventory access is true, Marriott has never followed its own rules and makes that inventory available for elected points as well. Could this change in the future? Well it's possible but not worth buying ownership now in case it ever did.


----------



## jeffm211

vacationtime1 said:


> Yes, we can confirm that this is sales bullsh*t.


Thank you.  Much appreciated.


----------



## jeffm211

kozykritter said:


> Though technically what they said about trust inventory access is true, Marriott has never followed its own rules and makes that inventory available for elected points as well. Could this change in the future? Well it's possible but not worth buying ownership now in case it ever did.


Thank you, @kozykritter.  That's what I thought I read...technically correct, but functionally not how it has worked.  If things change, I'm sure they'll always be willing to sell me club points in the future!  Much appreciated.


----------



## Joshadelic

Can anyone offer me a good reason why I should opt in to this Abound program?

My current ownership it this... 2br L/O SVV plat (148,100 SO), small 1br SDO plat (67,100 SO) – total 162,800 annual SO. If I'm looking at the conversion tables correctly, I can't even use these combined to book a full week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O or 2br at Nanea. They seem to have adjusted the values of my weeks downward so much that I don't see why I would ever want to do this. The only benefit I see is getting Bonvoy Platinum, but I already have Platinum through the Bonvoy AMEX and will have Titanium very soon because we've been traveling a lot this year.

Seems like a bad deal for me, but looks like a pretty good deal if you own anything at the resorts they deem to be more valuable.


----------



## VacationForever

Joshadelic said:


> Can anyone offer me a good reason why I should opt in to this Abound program?
> 
> My current ownership it this... 2br L/O SVV plat (148,100 SO), small 1br SDO plat (67,100 SO) – total 162,800 annual SO. If I'm looking at the conversion tables correctly, I can't even use these combined to book a full week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O or 2br at Nanea. They seem to have adjusted the values of my weeks downward so much that I don't see why I would ever want to do this. The only benefit I see is getting Bonvoy Platinum, but I already have Platinum through the Bonvoy AMEX and will have Titanium very soon because we've been traveling a lot this year.
> 
> Seems like a bad deal for me, but looks like a pretty good deal if you own anything at the resorts they deem to be more valuable.


You are automatically enrolled in Abound but you do not need to elect Abound points each year.  You can keep using StarOptions in VSN to make SO reservations.  If there is a year that you would like to go to Marriott resorts using Abound points, you can always elect for Abound points for that year.


----------



## Joshadelic

Did I see that VSN weeks deposited into II will not be able to be exchanged for Marriott properties? If so, that bites... or is this only if you have elected to convert to Abound points for that year???


----------



## timsi

Joshadelic said:


> Can anyone offer me a good reason why I should opt in to this Abound program?
> 
> My current ownership it this... 2br L/O SVV plat (148,100 SO), small 1br SDO plat (67,100 SO) – total 162,800 annual SO. If I'm looking at the conversion tables correctly, I can't even use these combined to book a full week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O or 2br at Nanea. They seem to have adjusted the values of my weeks downward so much that I don't see why I would ever want to do this. The only benefit I see is getting Bonvoy Platinum, but I already have Platinum through the Bonvoy AMEX and will have Titanium very soon because we've been traveling a lot this year.
> 
> Seems like a bad deal for me, but looks like a pretty good deal if you own anything at the resorts they deem to be more valuable.


Yes, we can continue to use VSN but Abound brought a reduction of the banking period and who knows what will happen to the VSN inventory, do not forget that Abound will be given a number of weeks 4 months before VSN and they will do it based on "anticipated demand".


----------



## dioxide45

Joshadelic said:


> Did I see that VSN weeks deposited into II will not be able to be exchanged for Marriott properties? If so, that bites... or is this only if you have elected to convert to Abound points for that year???


No, you can still use VSN weeks to trade for Vistana and Marriott. You just won't be able to use Abound Club points to trade for Marriott or Vistana through II.


----------



## kozykritter

Joshadelic said:


> Can anyone offer me a good reason why I should opt in to this Abound program?
> 
> My current ownership it this... 2br L/O SVV plat (148,100 SO), small 1br SDO plat (67,100 SO) – total 162,800 annual SO. If I'm looking at the conversion tables correctly, I can't even use these combined to book a full week in Hawaii in a 2br L/O or 2br at Nanea. They seem to have adjusted the values of my weeks downward so much that I don't see why I would ever want to do this. The only benefit I see is getting Bonvoy Platinum, but I already have Platinum through the Bonvoy AMEX and will have Titanium very soon because we've been traveling a lot this year.
> 
> Seems like a bad deal for me, but looks like a pretty good deal if you own anything at the resorts they deem to be more valuable.


I can think of two reasons you might want to consider not opting out of Abound. As Dioxide said, you are automatically enrolled in Abound but you don't need to elect points except in years that you want to. If you opt out of this one-time automatic enrollment, we don't know if you would have the chance to change your mind and enroll again in the future without paying some type of enrollment fee or having to make a purchase.

The second is if you opt out of Abound, you opt out of the new Club dues that consolidates all the transaction fees into its price. As a 3-star elite with your SOs, you will automatically be Executive level after Abound launches and pay a $270 annual membership fee which includes all transactional fees like II exchanges to Vistana and Marriott properties, guest certificates, banking, housekeeping, Bonvoy point conversion, etc. If you opt out of Abound, you will instead be charged the traditional VSN membership which they have raised this year to be $235 ($170+ $65) for your two contracts. However this fee does not include any of your transactional fees so you will have to pay for II exchanges to Vistana and Marriott, banking fees, etc. So you might want to consider spending the $35 more  a year in dues by staying enrolled in Abound for the chance to save hundreds of dollars in transactional fees each year.


----------



## jeffm211

timsi said:


> Yes, we can continue to use VSN but Abound brought a reduction of the banking period and who knows what will happen to the VSN inventory, do not forget that Abound will be given a number of weeks 4 months before VSN and they will do it based on "anticipated demand".



Is it true that Abound can only be given VSN inventory that is given up for election of Club Points?  Therefore, same amount of competition for 12 month reservations, except VSN usage will be more expensive using Club Points than VSN options.  Right?  Thanks.


----------



## jeffm211

Are the reservation windows under Abound getting more complicated than currently under VSN or will the VSN windows remain the same?  Currently under VSN, reservations can be made at midnight EST at 12 months (or 8 months) out.  In the write-up at the beginning of this thread, there was discussion about Tuesdays and Fridays being the opening of reservation windows.  Is that for using Club Points only or will that also apply to StarOptions/HomeOptions?  Thanks.


----------



## byeloe

jeffm211 said:


> Are the reservation windows under Abound getting more complicated than currently under VSN or will the VSN windows remain the same?  Currently under VSN, reservations can be made at midnight EST at 12 months (or 8 months) out.  In the write-up at the beginning of this thread, there was discussion about Tuesdays and Fridays being the opening of reservation windows.  Is that for using Club Points only or will that also apply to StarOptions/HomeOptions?  Thanks.


That would be for Club Points only


----------



## timsi

jeffm211 said:


> Is it true that *Abound can only be given VSN inventory that is given up for election of Club Points*?  Therefore, same amount of competition for 12 month reservations, except VSN usage will be more expensive using Club Points than VSN options.  Right?  Thanks.


In practice it would not happen like that, at the time the reservation in Abound starts, Abound and VSN will decide the units/weeks based on “anticipated demand”. According to the Abound Exchange Procedures:  “Exchange Company shall have the right to *forecast anticipated reservations *and use of the Accommodations and is *authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent* the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Program Members through the Program in its sole discretion.”. Please note they anticipate demand, not deposits."

They even have a “do as I say not as I do” clause: “Waiver. _No failure of Exchange Company_ to enforce any provision under these Exchange Procedures, exercise any power given under these Exchange Procedures, or to insist upon strict compliance with any obligation specified in these Exchange Procedures, and no custom or practice at variance with the terms of these Exchange Procedures, *shall constitute a waiver of Exchange Company’s right to demand exact compliance with the terms and conditions of these Exchange Procedures.*”

Any *2024 WKV Spring Training week* unit given to Abound in* March 2023* will only have to be balanced by the* end of 2023*. A WKV platinum owner who is in a coma for 10 months, wakes up on October  31st 2023 and deposits into Abound would give Abound the opportunity to balance the inventory already given to exchangers and booked 8 months ago. This is an extreme example of course but in reality there is always a number of owners who do NOT reserve exactly at 12 months and this gives the other resort owners better odds in booking the best units. Currently during the Home Resort Reservation Period we are supposed to book “without competition from anyone who does not own a Vacation Ownership Interest for a Vacation Unit that is the same type and season as the VOI Owner’s unit type and season” which means the resort owners have the best possible chance to book what they want. With Abound however, the resort owners are no longer in full control, it is Abound that would decide how many units are available to the owners for each calendar week and how many units go to Abound.

Think also about the Sheraton Flex deposits. It is not just the week of the calendar that matters, it is also a question of which of the 7 resorts that are currently part of the trust. In practice Vistana will decide which of the 364 possible units will be given to Abound (7 resorts, 52 weeks each). Do you know which week and resort will be assigned to Abound and what are the rules they will base the algorithm on? Nobody seems to know.

If the resort owners lose the exclusive rights during the HRRP and booking the best units becomes more challenging, you can imagine what will happen with the best VSN inventory since VSN only starts booking 4 months after the resort owners _and _the Abound exchangers have already picked up the best fruits.


----------



## SueDonJ

jeffm211 said:


> Are the reservation windows under Abound getting more complicated than currently under VSN or will the VSN windows remain the same?  Currently under VSN, reservations can be made at midnight EST at 12 months (or 8 months) out.  In the write-up at the beginning of this thread, there was discussion about Tuesdays and Fridays being the opening of reservation windows.  Is that for using Club Points only or will that also apply to StarOptions/HomeOptions?  Thanks.


If it helps to know how the DC/Abound has worked since its inception with respect to enrolled Marriott Weeks, the Weeks Reservation Windows and Release Dates work exactly the same as they did before and the Points system has its own Reservation Windows (based on member status levels) and Release Dates. Our website has a "Helpful Tools" section and the one that's most helpful is the one in which you input whether you're using Weeks or Points (including Points from enrolled/elected Weeks) and your desired resort/check-in day to learn the Release Date for your desired stay. (I know that there are Marriott owners who still think back to before these tools were available and it was helpful to know which days of the week were release days, but that was always subject to blips in the calendar due to holidays, Leap Years, etc, so as soon as they gave us the tools all that thinking flew right out of my head as unnecessary.  )

Hopefully you'll have access to similar tools.

One other tidbit is that Marriott inventory is supposed to be released exactly at 9AM Eastern on the release days. That's how it's always happened in the Weeks system and still does for both the phone lines and online, but for some reason in the Points system it sometimes shows up shortly after midnight the night before. We've learned to take advantage of that with the highest-demand inventory; it might be something that you'll want to experiment with.


----------



## MICROZE

SueDonJ said:


> One other tidbit is that Marriott inventory is supposed to be released exactly at 9AM Eastern on the release days. That's how it's always happened in the Weeks system and still does for both the phone lines and online, *but for some reason in the Points system it sometimes shows up shortly after midnight the night before*. We've learned to take advantage of that with the highest-demand inventory; it might be something that you'll want to experiment with.


That midnight [prior day] window has been shut with an update that happened recently.
I have been monitoring for a few months now and have not seen anything trickle through at midnight EST.
Would love to hear if anyone has been successful in snagging something at midnight the day prior recently.


----------



## SueDonJ

MICROZE said:


> That midnight [prior day] window has been shut with an update that happened recently.
> I have been monitoring for a few months now and have not seen anything trickle through at midnight EST.
> Would love to hear if anyone has been successful in snagging something at midnight the day prior recently.



Interesting - thanks for sharing!

Because this is only a minor detail that doesn't really serve the Vistana TUGgers participating in this thread, I've posted on the Marriott forum to see if others are experiencing the same thing: 13-mos DC/Abound Points Release Time of Day?


----------



## cubigbird

MICROZE said:


> That midnight [prior day] window has been shut with an update that happened recently.
> I have been monitoring for a few months now and have not seen anything trickle through at midnight EST.
> Would love to hear if anyone has been successful in snagging something at midnight the day prior recently.


I booked a Westin Cabo week at Midnight EDT just the other day for 8 months out.  We are traveling with another family and need a large unit so I wanted to make sure to reserve it.  I had no problem with the system.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> I booked a Westin Cabo week at Midnight EDT just the other day for 8 months out.  We are traveling with another family and need a large unit so I wanted to make sure to reserve it.  I had no problem with the system.


I think @MICROZE was referring to Abound point reservations (MVC).


----------



## Joshadelic

kozykritter said:


> The second is if you opt out of Abound, you opt out of the new Club dues that consolidates all the transaction fees into its price. As a 3-star elite with your SOs, you will automatically be Executive level after Abound launches and pay a $270 annual membership fee which includes all transactional fees like II exchanges to Vistana and Marriott properties, guest certificates, banking, housekeeping, Bonvoy point conversion, etc. If you opt out of Abound, you will instead be charged the traditional VSN membership which they have raised this year to be $235 ($170+ $65) for your two contracts. However this fee does not include any of your transactional fees so you will have to pay for II exchanges to Vistana and Marriott, banking fees, etc. So you might want to consider spending the $35 more  a year in dues by staying enrolled in Abound for the chance to save hundreds of dollars in transactional fees each year.



As far as I can tell, my 162,800 SOs only convert to 5,100 Abound points, so that would put me at "Select" level... unless I'm missing something.


----------



## dioxide45

Joshadelic said:


> As far as I can tell, my 162,800 SOs only convert to 5,100 Abound points, so that would put me at "Select" level... unless I'm missing something.


But that level puts you at VSN 3* Elite? If so, that should map over as Executive.


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> I think @MICROZE was referring to Abound point reservations (MVC).


That is correct. I was referring to searching via MVC [NOT Vistana].

The Vistana inventory has always opened up at midnight EST [slides day-by-day] and that is not a quirk.


----------



## Joshadelic

dioxide45 said:


> But that level puts you at VSN 3* Elite? If so, that should map over as Executive.



Yes. I believe 159,000 SOs is what's required to achieve 3* Elite. I made sure to get just over that when I went through the process of buying resale, upgrading/retroing, etc about 14 years ago now. I only spent about $10.5k out-of-pocket at the time. Now is when I wish I would have bought in Maui instead of owning SVV and SDO... but I never would have been able to do that for under $25k and end up with the same number of SOs. My 162,800 SOs now convert to only 5,100 CPs... :^(

However, according to this word salad, it appears you are right! If so, that would be awesome!!! I don't have enough Club Points to be at the Executive level, but if they want to give it to me, I'll certainly take it! That changes things quite a bit... mostly the fact that I can reserve any number of nights rather than 7 or more consecutive nights. Maybe this isn't as bad as I thought it was... as long as I don't convert to CPs... ;^)


----------



## CPNY

Joshadelic said:


> Yes. I believe 159,000 SOs is what's required to achieve 3* Elite. I made sure to get just over that when I went through the process of buying resale, upgrading/retroing, etc about 14 years ago now. I only spent about $10.5k out-of-pocket at the time. Now is when I wish I would have bought in Maui instead of owning SVV and SDO... but I never would have been able to do that for under $25k and end up with the same number of SOs. My 162,800 SOs now convert to only 5,100 CPs... :^(
> 
> However, according to this word salad, it appears you are right! If so, that would be awesome!!! I don't have enough Club Points to be at the Executive level, but if they want to give it to me, I'll certainly take it! That changes things quite a bit... mostly the fact that I can reserve any number of nights rather than 7 or more consecutive nights. Maybe this isn't as bad as I thought it was... as long as I don't convert to CPs... ;^)
> 
> View attachment 66877


I have a similar situation. I have enough SO to convert to just over 7K ACP’s (Abound Club Points). But after my accounts were merged, my vistana app shows 4 star elite. Does that mean I’ll map to presidential based on mapping/grandfathering or level out at executive based on ACP conversion value? I assumed that the grandfathering was for true current elite members (those who retro’d or bought direct).

the real interesting thing is that I don’t have enough SO to be 4 star elite.


----------



## Joshadelic

CPNY said:


> I have a similar situation. I have enough SO to convert to just over 7K ACP’s (Abound Club Points). But after my accounts were merged, my vistana app shows 4 star elite. Does that mean I’ll map to presidential based on mapping/grandfathering or level out at executive based on ACP conversion value? I assumed that the grandfathering was for true current elite members (those who retro’d or bought direct).
> 
> the real interesting thing is that I don’t have enough SO to be 4 star elite.



I'm not sure how some people got 4* out of this. I'm assuming it has to do with how many Club Points you have after the conversion. I'm still 3*...


----------



## jeffm211

SueDonJ said:


> If it helps to know how the DC/Abound has worked since its inception with respect to enrolled Marriott Weeks, the Weeks Reservation Windows and Release Dates work exactly the same as they did before and the Points system has its own Reservation Windows (based on member status levels) and Release Dates. Our website has a "Helpful Tools" section and the one that's most helpful is the one in which you input whether you're using Weeks or Points (including Points from enrolled/elected Weeks) and your desired resort/check-in day to learn the Release Date for your desired stay. (I know that there are Marriott owners who still think back to before these tools were available and it was helpful to know which days of the week were release days, but that was always subject to blips in the calendar due to holidays, Leap Years, etc, so as soon as they gave us the tools all that thinking flew right out of my head as unnecessary.  )
> 
> Hopefully you'll have access to similar tools.
> 
> One other tidbit is that Marriott inventory is supposed to be released exactly at 9AM Eastern on the release days. That's how it's always happened in the Weeks system and still does for both the phone lines and online, but for some reason in the Points system it sometimes shows up shortly after midnight the night before. We've learned to take advantage of that with the highest-demand inventory; it might be something that you'll want to experiment with.


Thank you, Susan.  That's helpful as I've always used the midnight Eastern time trigger for making my VSN reservations.  I'll check out the "Helpful Tools" section.


----------



## jeffm211

Following my Owners Update 10 days ago, wherein I received a sheet showing the Club Points election value for each of my VOIs, I downloaded and created an account in MVC app.  I've not been successful in being able to connect my VSN ownerships to the MVC account since I'm not sure what my MVC customer number is.  Anyone have guidance on this or will I need to wait until the program actually launches?  Thanks.


----------



## kozykritter

jeffm211 said:


> Following my Owners Update 10 days ago, wherein I received a sheet showing the Club Points election value for each of my VOIs, I downloaded and created an account in MVC app.  I've not been successful in being able to connect my VSN ownerships to the MVC account since I'm not sure what my MVC customer number is.  Anyone have guidance on this or will I need to wait until the program actually launches?  Thanks.


First thing to know is that anyone can create an account on the MVC app. You don't have to own any timeshare to do it.

That sheet should have an eight digit customer number labeled OTN Cust Code. This is your Marriott sales and marketing customer code. In my case I made a purchase of MVC points and that code became my account number as well. However many Vistana owners have tried to use that code to create a Marriott account and nobody has reported being successful. The FAQs for Abound say that Vistana owners will access it through Vistana.com so it's very unlikely that you will have a Marriott website account created for you unless you buy Marriott ownership.


----------



## CPNY

Joshadelic said:


> I'm not sure how some people got 4* out of this. I'm assuming it has to do with how many Club Points you have after the conversion. I'm still 3*...


My point conversions are just over 7K ACP’s. That includes two EOY ownerships. Let’s just say they haven’t cut the point value in half yet, I am still under the presidential level after the ACP conversion. I also do not have enough SO to be 4 star elite. Something tells me that the status won’t stay when the program is rolled out.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> My point conversions are just over 7K ACP’s. That includes two EOY ownerships. Let’s just say they haven’t cut the point value in half yet, I am still under the presidential level after the ACP conversion. I also do not have enough SO to be 4 star elite. Something tells me that the status won’t stay when the program is rolled out.


If for some reason it does stick, and you end up selling one of your enrolled weeks, they will recalc it again which would bump it down.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> If for some reason it does stick, and you end up selling one of your enrolled weeks, they will recalc it again which would bump it down.


Presidential would be a nice to have just for the extra 6 months in SO banking. Other than that, I don’t see much of a difference in benefits that I would use between Pres and Executive.

Unrelated: title changes transferred that unit sent to vistana on 8/19 as of today.


----------



## kozykritter

Every day I log on to Vistana and go to What I Own to see if somehow they've incorporated Abound values there (finally). When I clicked on Account Balances to get there, I saw an interesting error message about this page going on vacation, interesting because the rest of the page was actually intact (not a website error). My account balances had displayed properly on the Dashboard and also in the top header of this same page that is on vacation. Refreshing did nothing. Perhaps they are getting ready to launch!


----------



## Jimmyboy

vacationtime1 said:


> Yes, we can confirm that this is sales bullsh*t.



That is why we are no longer going to these updates..   Tired of all the BS..


----------



## Jimmyboy

Anybody have any idea when Vistana is going to update the website for those qualifying for Abound?  Only notification I saw w October..   It is now the 26th of October????


----------



## Captron

Jimmyboy said:


> Anybody have any idea when Vistana is going to update the website for those qualifying for Abound?  Only notification I saw w October..   It is now the 26th of October????


Your guess is as good as anyone's as to what they mean when they say "late October". Personally, I interpret it to mean hopefully sometime before the end of the year.


----------



## Wolfpack5407

How will Abound impact resale week owners? Especially in regards to interval international inventory.


----------



## JimT

Jimmyboy said:


> Anybody have any idea when Vistana is going to update the website for those qualifying for Abound?  Only notification I saw w October..   It is now the 26th of October????


Marriott owner services said in about 3 weeks i.e. mid November


----------



## Blue33

Question - I don't recall my prior Vistana level.  Does anyone have the old Vistana (Starwood) benefits levels?  I own three properties with 213,000 StartOptions per year.  Curious what level I was in the past, it seems to have been removed from my dashboard.


----------



## Moparman42

Blue33 said:


> Question - I don't recall my prior Vistana level.  Does anyone have the old Vistana (Starwood) benefits levels?  I own three properties with 213,000 StartOptions per year.  Curious what level I was in the past, it seems to have been removed from my dashboard.


i had the same issue.. but.  if you use the mobile app, it shows you in the dashboard at the top of the page.

Michael


----------



## daviator

Blue33 said:


> Question - I don't recall my prior Vistana level.  Does anyone have the old Vistana (Starwood) benefits levels?  I own three properties with 213,000 StartOptions per year.  Curious what level I was in the past, it seems to have been removed from my dashboard.


The info is still on the Vistana website.  Here it is:


A combined value of 159,000 StarOptions® annually for 3-star status
A combined value of 359,000 StarOptions annually for 4-star status
A combined value of 649,000 StarOptions annually for 5-star status


----------



## kozykritter

Blue33 said:


> Question - I don't recall my prior Vistana level.  Does anyone have the old Vistana (Starwood) benefits levels?  I own three properties with 213,000 StartOptions per year.  Curious what level I was in the past, it seems to have been removed from my dashboard.


After you log into the website, go to your dashboard and then click on Bank star options. When the page loads, next to the fee amount will be your elite status listed if you have it. It sounds like you are three star.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> After you log into the website, go to your dashboard and then click on Bank star options. When the page loads, next to the fee amount will be your elite status listed if you have it. It sounds like you are three star.


I’m listed as 4 star elite. Yet I don’t have enough SO to fulfill 4 star elite. I’m hoping that stays for the launch of abound. I’ll likely be presidential in Abound which would be nice


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> I’m listed as 4 star elite. Yet I don’t have enough SO to fulfill 4 star elite. I’m hoping that stays for the launch of abound. I’ll likely be presidential in Abound which would be nice


My theory is that they have mapped your ownership to its Abound level – a calculation which does not involve SO value, but instead varies property by property – and then essentially mapped that result back to a VSN elite level.  My VSN level went from four star to five star, and I’m guessing that’s because my high-DP ownership means I will be Chairman's.


----------



## DavidnRobin

So… the ‘Membership Fee’ on our 2023 WKORV MF Bill is $307. (!!!)

I assume this is the new VSN and Abound combination Fee. (?)
This fee was not on our WPORV MF Bill.

If I don’t plan to use Abound - am I still required to pay?

Why is my fee higher than that of what other owners are reporting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## grrrah

DavidnRobin said:


> So… the ‘Membership Fee’ on our 2023 WKORV MF Bill is $307. (!!!)
> 
> I assume this is the new VSN and Abound combination Fee. (?)
> This fee was not on our WPORV MF Bill.
> 
> If I don’t plan to use Abound - am I still required to pay?
> 
> Why is my fee higher than that of what other owners are reporting?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It goes up based on the higher tier levels, presumably because you'll have more "housekeeping"/"banking"/transfer/etc. fees, and they are now all bundled.  

Owner and Select: $230
Executive and Presidential: $270
Chairman’s Club: $295
Not sure how it got to $307, but probably some taxes or other BS fees


----------



## YYJMSP

grrrah said:


> It goes up based on the higher tier levels, presumably because you'll have more "housekeeping"/"banking"/transfer/etc. fees, and they are now all bundled.
> 
> Owner and Select: $230
> Executive and Presidential: $270
> Chairman’s Club: $295
> Not sure how it got to $307, but probably some taxes or other BS fees



$295 + 4.166% GET (Hawaii sales tax) = $307.29

whenever the VSN fees were attached to a Hawaii-based property (i.e. your first or second purchased VOI), they added that tax to them, so i guess the same applies to the first purchased VOI if it's in Hawaii and it looks like the entire Abound fee are on it, and additional VOIs are charged no fee

I'm going to assume, like us, WKORV is DavidnRobin's first purchased VOI...


----------



## kozykritter

Now that deeded week fee maintenance fee statements are being sent out, we have a bit more information. For Vistana-only owners that are enrolled in the VSN, the new Club Dues are being added to their statement. Flex product owners that paid maintenance fees with no Club Dues back in September are being billed for Club Dues separately in December, as I recall. The following footnote to these current maintenance fee statements gives information about how to opt out of Abound enrollment/Club Dues and the consequences of doing so, including an enrollment fee if you want to rejoin in the future...

"The VSN Membership Fee has been changed and now also includes (i) additional amounts charged for access to an additional exchange opportunity ...... and (ii) a consolidated fee that replaces the individual separate transaction fees that were previously billed to Owners on an a la carte basis (e.g., banking points, reservation cancellations, conversion to Marriott Bonvoy points, etc.). To opt out of receiving the additional exchange opportunity and consolidated fee that replaces the separate transaction fees previously billed a la carte, please contact Owner Services at 888-WV-OWNER (888-986-9637) and opt out by paying the 2023 Club Dues amount of either $170.50 (for single-week Owners) or $236.50 (for multi-week Owners). If you opt out, please note that you will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees, will not receive the additional exchange opportunity and ... the event you opt out and want to later take advantage of the consolidated VSN Membership Fee for 2024 or subsequent years, you will also need to pay an *enrollment fee*, which is currently *$595* but is subject to change from time to time."


----------



## The Haileys

I just got my 2023 statement for our WKORV week. There is no VSN fee, nor a Club fee. Will these be billed separately? 




Also, the MF for the Flex ownership was paid in September, with no Club fee listed either. 




Our SVV-Bella hasn't billed yet. Will the Club fee appear on that, maybe? 

I haven't received any communication about Abound beyond the initial "Coming Soon!" email we got back in ... was it August? July? 
I've booked Sheraton Kauai with our Flex points for February. I'd love to see if I can switch that to a Marriott property, but it isn't looking like the Is and Ts will be dotted and crossed in time for that, if there is even anything available. 
What a mess ...


----------



## YYJMSP

The Haileys said:


> I just got my 2023 statement for our WKORV week. There is no VSN fee, nor a Club fee. Will these be billed separately?
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, the MF for the Flex ownership was paid in September, with no Club fee listed either.
> 
> ...
> 
> Our SVV-Bella hasn't billed yet. Will the Club fee appear on that, maybe?



which is your oldest (first) purchased VOI?  

if it follows the VSE way, the oldest gets the membership fees attached (and second oldest gets the additional membership fees attached if you owned 2+ VOIs, but this doesn't apply to Abound)


----------



## The Haileys

YYJMSP said:


> which is your oldest (first) purchased VOI?
> 
> if it follows the VSE way, the oldest gets the membership fees attached (and second oldest gets the additional membership fees attached if you owned 2+ VOIs, but this doesn't apply to Abound)



WKORV was the first one we bought, in 2015.


----------



## YYJMSP

The Haileys said:


> WKORV was the first one we bought, in 2015.



wellllll, so much for that theory then...


----------



## kozykritter

The Haileys said:


> I just got my 2023 statement for our WKORV week. There is no VSN fee, nor a Club fee. Will these be billed separately?
> View attachment 68270
> 
> Also, the MF for the Flex ownership was paid in September, with no Club fee listed either.
> View attachment 68271
> 
> Our SVV-Bella hasn't billed yet. Will the Club fee appear on that, maybe?
> 
> I haven't received any communication about Abound beyond the initial "Coming Soon!" email we got back in ... was it August? July?
> I've booked Sheraton Kauai with our Flex points for February. I'd love to see if I can switch that to a Marriott property, but it isn't looking like the Is and Ts will be dotted and crossed in time for that, if there is even anything available.
> What a mess ...


Do you also own Marriott? If so, it appears they are billing over there instead of in Vistana for dual account owners, at least for my own person experience.


----------



## Souchiam

Just received MF for WKOR, membership fee $307.  I checked my Marriott MF for 2023, they are not posted yet.  We were at Executive level before the Westin “merge”.  Sometime in September 2022, our status at Marriott changed from Executive to Chairman, assuming they added WKORN to our Marriott timeshares.  Hopefully this $307 covers all our Marriott timeshares too, we’ll see.


----------



## The Haileys

kozykritter said:


> Do you also own Marriott? If so, it appears they are billing over there instead of in Vistana for dual account owners, at least for my own person experience.



No, Vistana only.


----------



## dsmrp

I checked my Vistana account today  , 
and no new MF statement or club fee. No change in my status, still 3*.


----------



## bigbillf

For 2022's VSN membership fees, we were billed $155 on our VV deeded 2br and $60 on our Westin Flex.  We had the VV VOI the longest.  Previous year's VV billings have came out in late Nov or early Dec.  For 2023, we did receive our Westin Flex MF billing, which did not include any membership fees for 2023.  VV's MF billing for 2023 has not yet been billed.  Looks like we need to continue to BOLO.  No change in my "elite" status..... still a 3*.  No bump up for us.  And not even thinking about spending any more $ on upgrading either.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks for explaining the extra fees as Hawaii for my "2023 Select Dues $239.58"   Does this mean that my mandatory WKORVN resale is eligible for Abound? Does paying constitute opting in?

Where do I find elite level for Abound in vistana mobile app?I have an EOY with about 4100 Abound points per year. It should qualify theoretically for Select level but I don't see it.


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for explaining the extra fees as Hawaii for my "2023 Select Dues $239.58"   Does this mean that my mandatory WKORVN resale is eligible for Abound? Does paying constitute opting in?
> 
> Where do I find elite level for Abound in vistana mobile app?I have an EOY with about 4100 Abound points per year. It should qualify theoretically for Select level but I don't see it.


Go to the app and click dashboard, at the top above your account balance it will have your status level next to where it says vistana signature network

if you go through the website and click on bank my star options, you’ll see any benefit level next to the fee amount for banking.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

CPNY said:


> Go to the app and click dashboard, at the top above your account balance it will have your status level next to where it says vistana signature network
> 
> if you go through the website and click on bank my star options, you’ll see any benefit level next to the fee amount for banking.



Thank you. It just says "Vistana Signature Network." Nada. Nothing. Could this mean that mandatory resales can enroll in Abound but don't qualify for Elite benefits (in my case Select)?


----------



## triangulum33

We have an annual week at WKORN from the developer and our dashboard is blank also


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you. It just says "Vistana Signature Network." Nada. Nothing. Could this mean that mandatory resales can enroll in Abound but don't qualify for Elite benefits (in my case Select)?


I don’t think so, I think if you’re in abound you’ll receive elite benefits. I have only resales left in my account and I now see an elite level associated with my account.

someone did report on the abound Facebook group that they were told that Marriott made a change and mandatory resales would not be included after all. Again, this is what a “supervisor” at owner services told this owner. Who really knows? I did check the FAQ’s and they have not changed. I’d assume if they were making a change like that, they would remove the verbiage in the FAQ’s quickly.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

CPNY said:


> I don’t think so, I think if you’re in abound you’ll receive elite benefits. I have only resales left in my account and I now see an elite level associated with my account.
> 
> someone did report on the abound Facebook group that they were told that Marriott made a change and mandatory resales would not be included after all. Again, this is what a “supervisor” at owner services told this owner. Who really knows? I did check the FAQ’s and they have not changed. I’d assume if they were making a change like that, they would remove the verbiage in the FAQ’s quickly.



Thank you. Sounds like sales blather or poor training. They wouldn't bill you for the Abound fee if they didn't intend to have you enroll.

I just realized that the line item says,"2023 *Select *Dues $239.58"  So perhaps this is recognition of the Elite level. I recall the email I received said that we would also map to the elite level, but my memory may not be accurate.

Curious if there is a mandatory resale owner that  qualifies for "member" level with fewer than elite Abound points tier, if that line item says, "2023 *Member* Dues $239.50"


----------



## Ken555

Waiting for WKV invoice to be available.


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## DavidnRobin

Based on the Membership Fee on our WKORV 2023 MF Bill ($307) - it is apparent that resale Vistana Mandatory VOIs (prior to Aug 2022) are included in Abound. Our WKORV Ownership was our first.

Based on our Ownership we should be a Presidential Level which matches the Membership Fee (plus HI tax).


----------



## DavidnRobin

DavidnRobin said:


> Based on the Membership Fee on our WKORV 2023 MF Bill ($307) - it is apparent that resale Vistana Mandatory VOIs (prior to Aug 2022) are included in Abound. Our WKORV Ownership was our first.
> 
> Based on our Ownership we should be a Presidential Level which matches the Membership Fee (plus HI tax).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Based on my Ownership with the 1st part of VSN fee taxed by HI.
It costs $67 more with the New Membership fee ($307) over VSN alone ($240).
If $600 to rejoin, guess I am forced to pay - arg! — since I may use Abound at some point.

And other than Covid - no need to Bank or use II or Housekeeping fees as we go where we own for most part.


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## daviator

DavidnRobin said:


> Based on my Ownership with the 1st part of VSN fee taxed by HI.
> It costs $67 more with the New Membership fee ($307) over VSN alone ($240).
> If $600 to rejoin, guess I am forced to pay - arg! — since I may use Abound at some point.
> 
> And other than Covid - no need to Bank or use II or Housekeeping fees as we go where we own for most part.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I also have my Club Dues billed on my WKORV ownership, so I get Hawaii GET added to the amount (I wonder if you can request to have your club dues assessed on a different VOI, to save the sales taxes?  It probably isn't worth the effort.)

Like you, we go where we own, mostly. I've never paid housekeeping fees in almost 20 years of ownership, and only paid a banking fee a couple of times. So I will pay roughly $100/year more under the new scheme.

The people who will really save money are those who own in both the MVC and Vistana systems and were previously paying membership dues in two systems. So essentially it benefits MVC owners who also own in Vistana. I suspect most Vistana owners will pay more.

And it seems like those who own at Lagunamar or Harborside may have to continue paying VSN dues for those properties, while ALSO paying Abound dues for other VOIs.  So they get hit twice!  I am not in that situation.


----------



## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> I also have my Club Dues billed on my WKORV ownership, so I get Hawaii GET added to the amount (I wonder if you can request to have your club dues assessed on a different VOI, to save the sales taxes? It probably isn't worth the effort.)



It can’t be changed - I inquired.


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## timsi

daviator said:


> I also have my Club Dues billed on my WKORV ownership, so I get Hawaii GET added to the amount (I wonder if you can request to have your club dues assessed on a different VOI, to save the sales taxes?  It probably isn't worth the effort.)
> 
> Like you, we go where we own, mostly. I've never paid housekeeping fees in almost 20 years of ownership, and only paid a banking fee a couple of times. So I will pay roughly $100/year more under the new scheme.
> 
> The people who will really save money are those who own in both the MVC and Vistana systems and were previously paying membership dues in two systems. So essentially it benefits MVC owners who also own in Vistana. I suspect most Vistana owners will pay more.
> 
> And it seems like those who own at Lagunamar or Harborside may have to continue paying VSN dues for those properties, while ALSO paying Abound dues for other VOIs.  So they get hit twice!  I am not in that situation.


Harborside is not part of Abound yet but Lagunamar is. Why would the Lagunamar owners have to pay VSN and Abound fees?


----------



## daviator

timsi said:


> Harborside is not part of Abound yet but Lagunamar is. Why would the Lagunamar owners have to pay VSN and Abound fees?


I thought I’d read in another post that a Lagunamar owner got charged VSN fee on their ownership there, but maybe I misremembered.  So what I said probably applies to St. John and Harborside owners but (maybe) not to Lagunamar.


----------



## vistana101

For those that have mandatory resales now enrolled in Abound, are you able to now convert those to Bonvoy points as well? Or did it just impact the timeshare side?


----------



## DavidnRobin

vistana101 said:


> For those that have mandatory resales now enrolled in Abound, are you able to now convert those to Bonvoy points as well? Or did it just impact the timeshare side?



I did see that option to convert our resales to BV points, but did not go further to see if it was actually doable.


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## Red elephant

daviator said:


> I also have my Club Dues billed on my WKORV ownership, so I get Hawaii GET added to the amount (I wonder if you can request to have your club dues assessed on a different VOI, to save the sales taxes?  It probably isn't worth the effort.)
> 
> Like you, we go where we own, mostly. I've never paid housekeeping fees in almost 20 years of ownership, and only paid a banking fee a couple of times. So I will pay roughly $100/year more under the new scheme.
> 
> The people who will really save money are those who own in both the MVC and Vistana systems and were previously paying membership dues in two systems. So essentially it benefits MVC owners who also own in Vistana. I suspect most Vistana owners will pay more.
> 
> And it seems like those who own at Lagunamar or Harborside may have to continue paying VSN dues for those properties, while ALSO paying Abound dues for other VOIs.  So they get hit twice!  I am not in that situation.


I wonder what is going to happen to me as I own both Marriott and Vistana but I also own Harborside which will not be in Abound. As a 5 star my VSN fee was reduced for that week. So do I loose that discount since only one week will be in VSN? Will they give me my money back if Harborside can be enrolled in Abound sometime in 2023?
Since it’s EOY even do I have to pay a fee for 2023? So many questions.


----------



## timsi

I


Red elephant said:


> I wonder what is going to happen to me as I own both Marriott and Vistana but I also own Harborside which will not be in Abound. As a 5 star my VSN fee was reduced for that week. So do I loose that discount since only one week will be in VSN? Will they give me my money back if Harborside can be enrolled in Abound sometime in 2023?
> Since it’s EOY even do I have to pay a fee for 2023? So many questions.


So those who are part of VSN are automatically enrolled in Abound. The went as far as allowing mandatory resale to participate to Abound. Yet, the same rule does not apply to Harborside? What are the issues there and why the secrecy? How can someone who owns Marriott and Vistana see a reduction of fees while someone who owns Harborside and another Vistana resort would have to pay more? I hope this is just a misunderstanding. Not to mention the program did not even start yet but, if you do not like the new fees, you are supposed to make a decision if you want to "opt out". Opt out of what exactly?


----------



## Ken555

timsi said:


> Not to mention the program did not even start yet but, if you do not like the new fees, you are supposed to make a decision if you want to "opt out". Opt out of what exactly?



FWIW, I saw this on Facebook yesterday.







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## TravelTime

Is the Abound opt out something a TS owner wrote? It sort of looks like something a TS owner would create. It seems too specific to one person’s situation. There seems to be a lot missing as well.


----------



## JimT

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I saw this on Facebook yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Looks very similar to the language in the most recent maintenance fee statements on page 2.

Not sure about my understanding, but it seems to me there are 2 different aspects to the Abound decision.   

One is about whether to take advantage of the consolidated fee structure which for many owners of multiple properties will result in lower fees.  Opting out of this will also take away the opportunity to convert StarOptions to Abound Destination Club Points.

The "Other" is an annual decision to convert StarOptions to Abound points which opens up opportunities to book the Marriott properties and other Marriott Trust inventory at up to 13 months in advance and has some banking options.

We expect to take advantage of the new fee structure and make the conversion to Abound decision on an annual basis.  Hope I understand.  Looking forward to the launch so we can gain more clarity.


----------



## DanCali

DavidnRobin said:


> If I don’t plan to use Abound - am I still required to pay?



Owners who do not plan to elect Abound points for their VOIs should still, IMO, consider paying the consolidated fee versus opting out. Opting out would likely require a subsequent purchase to re-enroll which would be very costly.

Things like banking fees would go away when one pays the consolidated fee, so dollar-wise it could even out. Moreover, even if you do not elect points for your own VOI, the ability to rent points from others (typically at what is the cost of Trust points MFs) can be very useful. This would allow, for example, to combine one week at WPORV with a few extra days on Poipu at Marriott's Waiohai, a few days on St. John with a few days on St. Thomas and some other nice combinations. We also live pretty close to a Marriott property in Florida and take advantage of the "worst (i.e., cheapest) season when you can get a studio at 70 points/night (~$45) at 60-days out for Sun-Fri stays and we just use it to access the facilities during the day. And those stays often get me to the Bonvoy 75-night level so I get an extra 5 suite nights or a 40K certificate.

We had a couple of pre-2010 Marriott weeks and held out on enrolling (fee for pre-2010 resale weeks was around $2000) until around 2015 because I also didn't believe we'd ever elect points. Our catalyst to enroll was to get grandfathered to Executive level before the threshold went from 6500 points (which we had) to 7000 points (which we did not). We rarely elected points for our weeks, but we often rented points from others and used them in the manner I described above.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

If you sign up for Abound, can you still elect Staroptions for a given year?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you sign up for Abound, can you still elect Staroptions for a given year?


You don't really "elect" StarOptions. Whenever you go to make a VSN reservation at 8 months, you are using StarOptions. That doesn't go away with Abound. You also don't sign up for Abound. Now if you elect Abound Club Points in a given year, you lose the ability to use the StarOptions from that VOI for VSN StarOption reservations.


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## CalGalTraveler

Thanks for clarifying. We've always used our unit and never traded staroptions. It seems like there is little to lose  (x club fee increase) and benefits to gain - especially if life happens and we cannot use the unit. Makes me feel better about MVC/Vistana integration. Who knows? I may buy more.

As a resale mandatory, it sounds like if you don't sign up now, you will lose the new Elite designation, and may not be able to sign up later as a resale.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> As a resale mandatory, it sounds like if you don't sign up now, you will lose the new Elite designation, and may not be able to sign up later as a resale.


This would only apply if you opt-out. Again, there is no signing up for Abound. It is automatic. We don't know, if when you opt out, what kind of requirement will be there to become part of Abound again..


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## CalGalTraveler

I was going by the opt-out note shared earlier in this thread,"...purchaser will not be eligible to receive any benefits as a Grandfathered VSN Elite Member."

I am planning to opt-in but wanting to be certain we are not losing any rights. Sounds like a great benefits. I am regretting not buying another deed prior to the cut-off date.


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## daviator

CalGalTraveler said:


> I was going by the opt-out note shared earlier in this thread,"...purchaser will not be eligible to receive any benefits as a Grandfathered VSN Elite Member."
> 
> I am planning to opt-in but wanting to be certain we are not losing any rights. Sounds like a great benefits. I am regretting not buying another deed prior to the cut-off date.


Just to be clear, there is no "opting in."  There's only opting out.  If you don't opt out, you will be enrolled in Abound.

There is an annual election if you want to play in the Abound program for the following calendar year instead of at your home resort or in VSN. Abound isn't a very good deal as an exchange platform for many Vistana owners, but it does open up additional properties and so may make sense for some.

My question is whether Abound members can rent Club Points even if they never elect to exchange their Vistana ownership(s) for Club Points.  I don't think we know yet.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> My question is whether Abound members can rent Club Points even if they never elect to exchange their Vistana ownership(s) for Club Points.  I don't think we know yet.


Marriott owners are able to do it.


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## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott owners are able to do it.



How does one rent Club Points?


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## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott owners are able to do it.


Yes, but they have MVC online accounts.  It isn't clear to me whether we will have an MVC account, particularly if we never elect to give our ownership(s) to Abound.  I guess we will wait and see.  Hopefully we will have the same ability as Marriott owners to rent points.


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## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> Yes, but they have MVC online accounts. It isn't clear to me whether we will have an MVC account, particularly if we never elect to give our ownership(s) to Abound. I guess we will wait and see. Hopefully we will have the same ability as Marriott owners to rent points.



I attempted to open an MVC account. Couldn’t do it.


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## grrrah

CalGalTraveler said:


> I was going by the opt-out note shared earlier in this thread,"...purchaser will not be eligible to receive any benefits as a Grandfathered VSN Elite Member."
> 
> I am planning to opt-in but wanting to be certain we are not losing any rights. Sounds like a great benefits. I am regretting not buying another deed prior to the cut-off date.


The biggest right we are losing is the 2-year banking going to be 1 year for us lower level OBLs, and possibly a change in deadline dates.  But that is happening whether we are in Abound or continue to use VSN.



DavidnRobin said:


> I attempted to open an MVC account. Couldn’t do it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


my understanding is that it will go through our Vistana login.  (I also tried creating an MVC account just to see how it worked,I created one but it goes nowhere with errors everywhere).


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## DavidnRobin

Ken555 said:


> Waiting for WKV invoice to be available.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



They are up ~8.8% increase


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## Ken555

DavidnRobin said:


> They are up ~8.8% increase
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh, joy.

I own one WKV plat plus 2-bed which should, as per earlier posts, make me Select, assuming I’ve followed this thread and the others here correctly. I do not see any such qualification when I review my account in the mobile app, as I’ve read that the website doesn’t show this detail. Not sure what to think at this point other than I need to cough up more money (as I had already paid the estimated MFs on all my weeks…and yes, SDO went up as well).


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## Jimmyboy

My 4 WKV platinum plus total management fees went up $80.  I guess that is the Abound fee Chairman level.  Dues went up 9%  Inflation?

Still waiting for the website changes incorporating Abound???


----------



## SueDonJ

DavidnRobin said:


> How does one rent Club Points?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I realize your question may be more related to the actual machinations of renting Abound points given that Vistana members don't have owners.marriottvacationclub.com accounts, but I'm dropping this here for those who want to know the two ways that point rentals work. I would assume (I know, I know) that whatever accounts you Vistana members use for Abound points transactions, you'll be able to process point/reservation rentals through those accounts.

The basics of renting Abound Points, from page three of the Marriott forum's Abound FAQ:

_>>*Usage Transfers* - All Members are allowed to transfer usage of DC Points to other DC Members, provided all parties are in good standing. Although the governing documents do not stipulate any certain amounts, the VOA's are able to process transfers only in 5-Points increments. Once transferred, control of such Points and any reservations made with them is assumed by the transferee. Transferred Points retain their original Use Year and their origination as either Trust or Exchange Points. Transferred Points cannot be banked, borrowed, or further transferred. Transfers have no bearing on a Member's Status Tier. Currently there are no limits to the number of transfers allowed to/from Member Accounts.

*Usage Rentals* - Renting to another DC Member may be done via a Usage Transfer as above.

Or, a DC Member in good standing may rent privately, to anyone, reservations that have been booked using his/her Points. Similar to private rentals of Marriott Weeks, the DC Member simply has to notify Owner Services of the rentee's name prior to check-in. Control of the DC Points and the reservation(s) made with them remains with the DC Member.

Currently there are no limits to the number of rentals allowed through Member Accounts.

Marriott does not currently have an internal Points Rental option. Rentals may be facilitated privately through any of the established sites including but not limited to the TUG Marketplace and Last Minute Rentals forums, and the two external sites mentioned here which have been developed by long-time TUGgers and are utilized extensively by Marriott Vacation Club owners/members:_

_*VacationPointExchange.com* developed by TUGgers GregT and StevenTing shortly after the DC introduction_
_*Ownertrades.com* developed by TUGger Clark in 2001, expanded to include DC Points resales/rentals following the DC establishment_
_*Note the liberal rental possibilities are the deciding factor for some Weeks Owners in favor of enrolling eligible Weeks which they may not otherwise consider enrolling. That's because it gives them a DC account to which Points may be transferred in and thus, complete control over any reservations that are effectively rentals from other DC Members.<<_


----------



## The Haileys

Just to be clear, those of you who have received your 2023 Maintenance Fee statement(s), you ARE seeing the new Club Fees on there? 

Our statements do not have the Club Fees. I would expect that to be in the line where Membership Dues were previously billed: 





 

I have called Owner Services, but they are, as usual, utterly useless.


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## DavidnRobin

The Haileys said:


> Just to be clear, those of you who have received your 2023 Maintenance Fee statement(s), you ARE seeing the new Club Fees on there?
> 
> Our statements do not have the Club Fees. I would expect that to be in the line where Membership Dues were previously billed:
> 
> View attachment 68571View attachment 68572
> 
> I have called Owner Services, but they are, as usual, utterly useless.



Yes - our WKORV has the fee (our 1st ownership). Not for our other 3.


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## The Haileys

DavidnRobin said:


> Yes - our WKORV has the fee (our 1st ownership). Not for our other 3.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thank you. The dude at Owner Services wouldn't let me talk at all. Annoyed as heck right now.


----------



## dioxide45

The Haileys said:


> Just to be clear, those of you who have received your 2023 Maintenance Fee statement(s), you ARE seeing the new Club Fees on there?
> 
> Our statements do not have the Club Fees. I would expect that to be in the line where Membership Dues were previously billed:
> 
> View attachment 68571View attachment 68572
> 
> I have called Owner Services, but they are, as usual, utterly useless.


Do you own more than one VOI where the other(s) aren't yet billed? It may not necessarily be the first billed that has the Club Fee.


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## The Haileys

dioxide45 said:


> Do you own more than one VOI where the other(s) aren't yet billed? It may not necessarily be the first billed that has the Club Fee.



WKORV was our first purchase. We also have Sheraton Flex, and that was billed in August, also with no Membership or Club fee. SVV-Bella hasn't been billed yet, but that's a resale purchase, though we did retro it a couple years ago. .


----------



## DavidnRobin

The Haileys said:


> WKORV was our first purchase. We also have Sheraton Flex, and that was billed in August, also with no Membership or Club fee. SVV-Bella hasn't been billed yet, but that's a resale purchase, though we did retro it a couple years ago. .



Maybe you will be lucky and have it on your SVV-Bella bill (no additional HI tax).

Your pre-Aug VSN Mandatory VOIs are now available for Abound whether retro’s or not.

@Dioxide posted the potential MVC DC points for Various resorts.
WKORV OF has good value, but we bought it to use it.


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## dioxide45

The Haileys said:


> WKORV was our first purchase. We also have Sheraton Flex, and that was billed in August, also with no Membership or Club fee. SVV-Bella hasn't been billed yet, but that's a resale purchase, though we did retro it a couple years ago. .


I would then expect it to be on your SVV bill. Will find out when they bill them.


----------



## grrrah

DavidnRobin said:


> Maybe you will be lucky and have it on your SVV-Bella bill (no additional HI tax).
> 
> Your pre-Aug VSN Mandatory VOIs are now available for Abound whether retro’s or not.
> 
> @Dioxide posted the potential MVC DC points for Various resorts.
> WKORV OF has good value, but we bought it to use it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


<--- You can see what I have.  Nanea was my first and it doesn't include club fees on it.  SVV-KW hasn't been invoiced yet, so hoping it's on that bill when it comes.


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## teddyo333

I've been invoiced for all of my units (VNS & Non-VSN) except the two SVV's that I own. None of the units have the club fees associated with them so I will assume that they will be added to the SVV invoices when they generate.


----------



## SandyPGravel

I only own at WSJ, isn't this odd...


----------



## dioxide45

SandyPGravel said:


> I only own at WSJ, isn't this odd...View attachment 68668View attachment 68669


Mine shows the same type of thing for SVV, but the 2023 fees haven't been billed yet. Does the first page after clicking on "View Statements & Make Payment" show something like this? If so, it is just showing the 2022 fees that can be prepaid for 2023.


----------



## daviator

There has been a lot of speculation about how MVC/Vistana chooses which VOI (for those who own multiple) to attach the club dues to. Like some others here, I initially speculated that it got attached to the first VOI you purchased, because that’s how it seemed to work for me.  But others have debunked that.

I wonder if the real answer might be that there are some locations where it is advantageous to MVW to have the income over others.  For example, if their corporate tax rate is lower in Florida than other locations, perhaps they put the club dues on Florida properties when possible.  Given that they essentially can assign the club dues under whatever scheme they want, it would make sense that they’d do it in a way that worked to their advantage.  (Who could blame them?)


----------



## DanCali

DavidnRobin said:


> How does one rent Club Points?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




vacationpointexchange.com was launched by tuggers and you can list for free and a buyer or seller.

As a buyer you need to be careful because there have been some documented scams. You'd probably want to make sure the seller is "verified" and maybe see some screenshots of their account.

As a seller I found some people are wary to pay before they get their points, but since points transfers are irreversible, a seller would have similar concerns. In all my exchanges (as buyer or seller) the buyer paid first, but I've had buyers who refused to do that, and we agreed to move on.

The actual transfer is done by calling MVC Owner Services and providing the buyers owner number (and name for verification points are going to the right place).


----------



## cubigbird

Recent owners update and other postings online seem to show a consensus of Abound launch Jan 1 now.


----------



## daviator

cubigbird said:


> Recent owners update and other postings online seem to show a consensus of Abound launch Jan 1 now.


Of which year?


----------



## 3DH

Does anyone have any clarity of how our VOI points will be allocated as to equivalent Club Points? I saw the chart showing how many club points would be required for my home resort, but still don't understand how to figure how many I would actually receive if I put my VOI into the Abound program.


----------



## kozykritter

3DH said:


> Does anyone have any clarity of how our VOI points will be allocated as to equivalent Club Points? I saw the chart showing how many club points would be required for my home resort, but still don't understand how to figure how many I would actually receive if I put my VOI into the Abound program.


Go here and see if your ownership(s) have conversion values listed.









						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## TravelTime

We have 3 more weeks until our Christmas break starts. I am skeptical that Abound will launch this year. For all intensive purposes, the have less than 3 weeks before the holiday season starts. I doubt it make sense to launch after December 15 since most people are in full holiday mode at that point. I could be wrong and maybe they want to launch when most people are too busy to bother with it. 

I hope they at least send some type of communication about what is going on if they do not launch this year. For example, I would want to know if they will extend the deadline to deposit a Vistana week. Right now, the deadline was extended to Dec 31st. However, if it goes too late, I would probably bank with StarOptions to go to Mexico in 2024. I could rent my week but I hate renting and dealing with renters. Overall, I would prefer to deposit my week into Abound but it seems like we need to make a decision by Dec 31st because that is the deadline to bank for StarOptions for 5* elite.


----------



## tomvc

TravelTime said:


> Overall, I would prefer to deposit my week into Abound but it seems like we need to make a decision by Dec 31st because that is the deadline to bank for StarOptions for 5* elite.


The Dec 31, 2022 deadline is to elect 2023 usage into Abound. 2022 usage is not eligible for Abound.


----------



## ocdb8r

Hell, I'm over thinking about whether I can use Abound in 2023 at all, I just want to know the bottom line on how it will affect fees.  Right now, it's clear as mud.  Got ahold of the Vistana team today and they were totally clueless and said "oh, maybe you should just wait to pay your fees....".  Wait until when?!?!


----------



## TravelTime

tomvc said:


> The Dec 31, 2022 deadline is to elect 2023 usage into Abound. 2022 usage is not eligible for Abound.



Yes that is what I mean.


----------



## cubigbird

At our most recent owners update, they were saying January for the Abound launch.  There others in the Facebook group reporting the same so that seems to be the consensus.


----------



## sponger76

I've given up on worrying about it. If it's up in January, I *might* think about electing for 2024 usage just to experiment with it.


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## Ken555

It’s sad, and yet slightly amusing, to see how many have allowed their travel planning to be impacted by the incompetence at Marriott and the poor, almost comical, way in which their sales team confuses owners. 

I’m so glad I have no reliance on Abound and am only concerned regarding its impact on StarOption availability moving forward. 


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## VacationForever

Doesn't affect me one bit either.  I will continue to use VSN and keep the 2 sides separate.


----------



## SMH1968

I am on vacation at the Westin Lagunamar and attended the 90 minute Owners Update for my 30k Bonvoy bonus and was offered to buy an EOY 44k StarOption for ~$11k under the guise that it would make my mandatory resale SVV Key West 81k StarOptions usable in the new Abound ecosystem.  From experience I knew this was likely a bad offer, but it always sounds good in that setting, no?  Anyway, I told them we would think about it on the beach where I logged into Tugg and found this Thread.  The money I spend on this membership always saves me THOUSANDS of dollars, as it appears my points should definitely be viable after the merger is complete.  Thanks again for everyone who put all this research together!  

The one question I can't seem to find the answer to is, Will my SVV Key West Mandatory Resale still have actual value if I want to re-sell it down the line?  I definitely don't want to be stuck paying for the maintenance for something that we might not need a few years from now.  Obviously whoever buys it will buy it AFTER the 8/9/2022 deadline so it won't be viable for Abound, but it will still be valuable in the Vistana network, right?  Sorry, these timeshare things are always needlessly confusing to me, but I think that is part of the design!


----------



## CPNY

SMH1968 said:


> I am on vacation at the Westin Lagunamar and attended the 90 minute Owners Update for my 30k Bonvoy bonus and was offered to buy an EOY 44k StarOption for ~$11k under the guise that it would make my mandatory resale SVV Key West 81k StarOptions usable in the new Abound ecosystem.  From experience I knew this was likely a bad offer, but it always sounds good in that setting, no?  Anyway, I told them we would think about it on the beach where I logged into Tugg and found this Thread.  The money I spend on this membership always saves me THOUSANDS of dollars, as it appears my points should definitely be viable after the merger is complete.  Thanks again for everyone who put all this research together!
> 
> The one question I can't seem to find the answer to is, Will my SVV Key West Mandatory Resale still have actual value if I want to re-sell it down the line?  I definitely don't want to be stuck paying for the maintenance for something that we might not need a few years from now.  Obviously whoever buys it will buy it AFTER the 8/9/2022 deadline so it won't be viable for Abound, but it will still be valuable in the Vistana network, right?  Sorry, these timeshare things are always needlessly confusing to me, but I think that is part of the design!


It remains to be seen. As it is right now, yes it will have value because the VSN is still around. Depending on what the VSN actually looks like down the road is anyones guess. I expect it to still be around but will it look and operate as it does now? Who really knows. VSN inventory is the biggest concern for most owners.

It makes me wonder if this delay is just a reason for Marriott to sell more units. The whole “buy to enroll your resale into abound” LIE is pathetic.


----------



## cubigbird

CPNY said:


> It makes me wonder if this delay is just a reason for Marriott to sell more units. The whole “buy to enroll your resale into abound” LIE is pathetic.



This has also crossed my mind.  It’s possible that they are seeing sales success from the FOMO so why launch it?


----------



## aeroflygirl

It looks like they are updating the Vistana website tonight!


----------



## Jimmyboy

It's finally here....


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Good news.  From the tab dropdown on the right, I was able to link from Vistana.com to a new MVC account and it shows my Elite level for Abound at the top. Not sure if my Vistana property is supposed to show here because I already booked in Vistana for 2023 so nothing for Abound to deposit.  

I paid off our MF a few days ago which might have triggered that we were opting into the program.


----------



## cubigbird

As discussed in other threads and Facebook it looks Vistana inventory is showing up in Abound.  Is this the Marriott inventory owned inventory, because that can be booked at 13 months, ahead of us home resort owners, granted it is separate inventory.  Does this also mean our concern of less inventory in VSN is true?


----------



## MICROZE

I see all Vistana properties available for booking via Abound 13-Months out. Can even book Jan-2024.
Westin Kierland shows as available for Feb/Mar-2023 via Abound, but no availability to book via Vistana.


----------



## kozykritter

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good news.  From the tab dropdown on the right, I was able to link from Vistana.com to a new MVC account and it shows my Elite level for Abound at the top. Not sure if my Vistana property is supposed to show here because I already booked in Vistana for 2023 so nothing for Abound to deposit.
> 
> I paid off our MF a few days ago which might have triggered that we were opting into the program.
> 
> View attachment 69369


I have dual owner confusion so help me out. Is that screenshot from your existing MVC owner account and you linked something from there?


----------



## cubigbird

MICROZE said:


> I see all Vistana properties available for booking via Abound 13-Months out. Can even book Jan-2024.
> Westin Kierland shows as available for Feb/Mar-2023 via Abound, but no availability to book via Vistana.


I think this was an initial worry that inventory would go to Abound, starving VSN.  This means that inventory that could be booked during VSN home resort at 12 months is now in Abound to book at 13 months, essentially front running the home resort owners.


----------



## Red elephant

I booked 1 bedroom premium Westin Kierland for October using SVR enrollment to Abound. Did not want to wait 8 months to use staroptions. If it’s still available then will book with staroptions and cancel abound reservation . Not sure which is cost effective at this point. It was only 1350 points for 5 nights. 
I am wondering if at 8 months there will be inventory in VSN or is this separate buckets.


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> I see all Vistana properties available for booking via Abound 13-Months out. Can even book Jan-2024.
> Westin Kierland shows as available for Feb/Mar-2023 via Abound, but no availability to book via Vistana.


I know they were still selling weeks at Kierland this October when I went so maybe that’s where the availability is coming from.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

kozykritter said:


> I have dual owner confusion so help me out. Is that screenshot from your existing MVC owner account and you linked something from there?


I accessed this from my Vistana account. I don't have an MVC account - until now.


----------



## bigbillf

After many tries, last night I was able to elect into Abound and I was able to pickup some time in Dec 2023 at the Marriott at Waikoloa on the Big Island of HI.  It was challenging as most likely because it was the first day of going live.  All my properties were authorized and my elite status was at Executive as we are 3* in VSN.   The club point values assigned for each of our VOI's were dead on to what was in the tracker database.  So all seems well.  Haven't seen my club membership dues yet.....not holding my breath.


----------



## jeffm211

I too was able to access the MVC website from my Vistana login.  I was not able to look up availability for any Marriott properties before electing Club Points for 2023; effectively having to make an election on a speculative basis hoping to get the reservations I want AND have enough points elected.  Not sure I want to play the speculation game.  I have not purchased Club Points as I’m already at Chairman level based on Vistana VOIs and don’t really need any more.  In other words, no Club Points…no visibility into available inventory.   Am I missing something or is this how it’s supposed to work?  Thanks.


----------



## daviator

jeffm211 said:


> I too was able to access the MVC website from my Vistana login.  I was not able to look up availability for any Marriott properties before electing Club Points for 2023; effectively having to make an election on a speculative basis hoping to get the reservations I want AND have enough points elected.  Not sure I want to play the speculation game.  I have not purchased Club Points as I’m already at Chairman level based on Vistana VOIs and don’t really need any more.  In other words, no Club Points…no visibility into available inventory.   Am I missing something or is this how it’s supposed to work?  Thanks.


At some point I remember reading that we were supposed to be able to check availability in Abound before committing to elect Abound club points for a Vistana VOI.  But like you, I can’t find any way to actually do that.  I hope that ability is coming.  I can’t imagine making a non-revocable election to club points without some assurance that the property and dates I wanted to book were actually available.


----------



## MICROZE

jeffm211 said:


> I too was able to access the MVC website from my Vistana login.  I was not able to look up availability for any Marriott properties before electing Club Points for 2023; effectively having to make an election on a speculative basis hoping to get the reservations I want AND have enough points elected.  Not sure I want to play the speculation game.  I have not purchased Club Points as I’m already at Chairman level based on Vistana VOIs and don’t really need any more.  In other words, *no Club Points…no visibility into available inventory*.   Am I missing something or is this how it’s supposed to work?  Thanks.


*This* [No-Points = No-Visibility] is how it has been within the Destination-Club since forever. Unsure if it will change any time soon.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

That is not a good policy. I would not give up my expensive WKORVN OF points on the chance I would get a trade in MVC portal.  What if you have only a few points but not enough for a week reservation e.g. 500. Can you see everything?


----------



## DanCali

jeffm211 said:


> I too was able to access the MVC website from my Vistana login.  I was not able to look up availability for any Marriott properties before electing Club Points for 2023; effectively having to make an election on a speculative basis hoping to get the reservations I want AND have enough points elected.  Not sure I want to play the speculation game.  I have not purchased Club Points as I’m already at Chairman level based on Vistana VOIs and don’t really need any more.  In other words, no Club Points…no visibility into available inventory.   Am I missing something or is this how it’s supposed to work?  Thanks.





CalGalTraveler said:


> That is not a good policy. I would not give up my expensive WKORVN OF points on the chance I would get a trade in MVC portal.  What if you have only a few points but not enough for a week reservation e.g. 500. Can you see everything?



You can "sort of" do that. You will be able to see if the "cheapest" available unit is available, but not if more "expensive stuff" is, along with a message that you don't have enough points to book it. For example, in the screenshot below I can see availability for Ocean Pointe for Sep 10 for 4 nights and I can tell that a studio is available. But I don't know if I can get a 1BR or bigger since those may not be available for the specific date.


----------



## needvaca

Abound seems to have taken everything good, functional, transparent, and user friendly about the VSN network and tossed it out the window. 
Such a disappointment.


----------



## CPNY

needvaca said:


> Abound seems to have taken everything good, functional, transparent, and user friendly about the VSN network and tossed it out the window.
> Such a disappointment.


The vistana UI is much much much better. It’s a shame that MVC execs admitted to Vistana IT being superior…. Yet they didn’t actually take the technology and implement it on the Marriott side.


----------



## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> The vistana UI is much much much better. It’s a shame that MVC execs admitted to Vistana IT being superior…. Yet they didn’t actually take the technology and implement it on the Marriott side.


Hypothetically it probably would have taken years to convert Marriott UI to Vistana's. Look how long it took to integrate Vistana which is a smaller user base than MVC.

At least we still have Vistana UI for star options reservations.


----------



## CPNY

dsmrp said:


> Hypothetically it probably would have taken years to convert Marriott UI to Vistana's. Look how long it took to integrate Vistana which is a smaller user base than MVC.
> 
> At least we still have Vistana UI for star options reservations.


Great point


----------



## DavidnRobin

dsmrp said:


> Hypothetically it probably would have taken years to convert Marriott UI to Vistana's. Look how long it took to integrate Vistana which is a smaller user base than MVC.
> 
> At least we still have Vistana UI for star options reservations.



Or…
Create an entirely new UI using current technologies vs. current one based on technology from the 1990s.

IMO - this was a mistake by Marriott and will cost them more in the long run on multiple levels.
And I think they will be forced into eventually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Westnick

I am chairman level and all 4 of my mandatory resale units qualified for club points. Do they now also qualify to change to bonvoy points?


----------



## byeloe

Westnick said:


> I am chairman level and all 4 of my mandatory resale units qualified for club points. Do they now also qualify to change to bonvoy points?


yes, I believe they do


----------



## dioxide45

Westnick said:


> I am chairman level and all 4 of my mandatory resale units qualified for club points. Do they now also qualify to change to bonvoy points?


I am not 100% sure. You can't convert your VOI to Abound then convert that to Bonvoy. It doesn't work like that. You have to convert your VOI to Bonvoy. Being an unqualified week, that may still not be possible. Back with Marriott launched DC to their Marriott owners, one of the selling points for resale owners to pay to enroll (a much higher fee I might add) was that they would then also have the ability to convert their week to Bonvoy points at a time when resale weeks were not eligible for that. Marriott and Vistana have not sold converting a VOI to Bonvoy as a feature to being enrolled in Abound. If they were extending this ability, i would have thought they would have talked it up more.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> I am not 100% sure. You can't convert your VOI to Abound then convert that to Bonvoy. It doesn't work like that. You have to convert your VOI to Bonvoy. Being an unqualified week, that may still not be possible. Back with Marriott launched DC to their Marriott owners, one of the selling points for resale owners to pay to enroll (a much higher fee I might add) was that they would then also have the ability to convert their week to Bonvoy points at a time when resale weeks were not eligible for that. Marriott and Vistana have not sold converting a VOI to Bonvoy as a feature to being enrolled in Abound. If they were extending this ability, i would have thought they would have talked it up more.


I agree.  Abound does not provide a mechanism to convert exchange points to Bonvoy.  If your base ownership is Vistana, you have to convert directly from that ownership to Bonvoy points (if you want to do so) and that conversion is only allowed for developer purchases or resales that have been requalified through another developer purchase.  

Marriott gave a big gift to resale owners by letting them participate in Abound, probably because they wanted more VOIs in the exchange pool, and because they thought that allowing those owners to participate in Abound would give MVC a hook to sell them more points in the future.  But there's really no advantage to MVC in allowing Bonvoy conversions by resale owners, and I suspect that such owners are still going to be unable to do so.


----------



## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> I am not 100% sure. You can't convert your VOI to Abound then convert that to Bonvoy. It doesn't work like that. You have to convert your VOI to Bonvoy. Being an unqualified week, that may still not be possible. Back with Marriott launched DC to their Marriott owners, one of the selling points for resale owners to pay to enroll (a much higher fee I might add) was that they would then also have the ability to convert their week to Bonvoy points at a time when resale weeks were not eligible for that. Marriott and Vistana have not sold converting a VOI to Bonvoy as a feature to being enrolled in Abound. If they were extending this ability, i would have thought they would have talked it up more.



It looks as if I can convert my resale Mandatory to BonVoy points - at least the online option is available. I didn’t go through to end, but looks like they do when selected.
Not that I would.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kozykritter

Westnick said:


> I am chairman level and all 4 of my mandatory resale units qualified for club points. Do they now also qualify to change to bonvoy points?


There was a mention of it in the Vistana email sent in September informing owners that mandatory resales would be eligible for Abound. The wording was something to the effect that those ownerships would likely be eligible to convert to Bonvoy points sometime in the future. No further details were given.


----------



## daviator

DavidnRobin said:


> It looks as if I can convert my resale Mandatory to BonVoy points - at least the online option is available. I didn’t go through to end, but looks like they do when selected.
> Not that I would.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If they've really given that option to resale owners, that's an even bigger gift.  And I suppose I'd be pretty unhappy if I'd recently spent money to requalify a Vistana resale purchase, if they essentially just gave that to everyone else for nothing!


----------



## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> If they've really given that option to resale owners, that's an even bigger gift. And I suppose I'd be pretty unhappy if I'd recently spent money to requalify a Vistana resale purchase, if they essentially just gave that to everyone else for nothing!



Resale Voluntary (not requaled) certainly got screwed.

For our Vistana ownership, we started out as 3* and SPG Gold and went to 5* VSN, Chairman MVC and BonVoy Titanium Elite w/o doing anything.
And have 3 VOIs that have pretty good Abound conversion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## timsi

dsmrp said:


> Hypothetically it probably would have taken years to convert Marriott UI to Vistana's. Look how long it took to integrate Vistana which is a smaller user base than MVC.
> 
> At least we still have Vistana UI for star options reservations.


There is no evidence that the issue was the number of Marriott UI to Vistana's, rather than competence. Expedia has 3 million lodges in their database, not to mention car rentals, plane tickets etc.


----------



## timsi

needvaca said:


> Abound seems to have taken everything good, functional, transparent, and user friendly about the VSN network and tossed it out the window.
> Such a disappointment.


Marriott has a villa calendar, but they took it away from us!


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> It looks as if I can convert my resale Mandatory to BonVoy points - at least the online option is available. I didn’t go through to end, but looks like they do when selected.
> Not that I would.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IIRC, that has always been there. I beleive it was there pre Abound. I never tried it either though. Even on the What I Own page, it also always listed the amount of Bonvoy (or SPG) points that the VOI would convert to, even if eligible mandatory.


----------



## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> IIRC, that has always been there. I beleive it was there pre Abound. I never tried it either though. Even on the What I Own page, it also always listed the amount of Bonvoy (or SPG) points that the VOI would convert to, even if eligible mandatory.



You are correct.
I just went through BV points conversion process for our WKV resale.
Stated it wasn’t eligible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I called MVC owner services and it says that as a Vistana-only owner with access to enrolled points, we have no MVC number (aka MVC step-children). Therefore although we can elect our points, we have no renting points privilege.  

We would need to buy a minimum qualified deed or points package to rent out or rent from MVC owners. 

Unclear if my enrolled Vistana points would be requalified to to augment or use for rentals or if two separate accounts/portals. He said it should work but I will believe it when I see it.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> I called MVC owner services and it says that as a Vistana-only owner with access to enrolled points, we have no MVC number (aka MVC step-children). Therefore although we can elect our points, we have no renting points privilege.
> 
> We would need to buy a minimum qualified deed or points package to rent out or rent from MVC owners.
> 
> Unclear if my enrolled Vistana points would be requalified to to augment or use for rentals or if two separate accounts/portals. He said it should work but I will believe it when I see it.


You do have an MVC owner number, but it isn't seen unless you can get your hands on some paperwork from a sales presentation. I beleive some people here have that and tried to sign up for an MVC account, but it failed. I wonder if someone could try a small point transfer to that owner number and see if it works. Sometimes the only way to see if things work is to try it, front line people are usually clueless in the smaller nuances.


----------



## HankW

dioxide45 said:


> You do have an MVC owner number, but it isn't seen unless you can get your hands on some paperwork from a sales presentation. I beleive some people here have that and tried to sign up for an MVC account, but it failed. I wonder if someone could try a small point transfer to that owner number and see if it works. Sometimes the only way to see if things work is to try it, front line people are usually clueless in the smaller nuances.


Once you go to the MVC site via Vistana.com, select Book Vacation Points Club. Now on the URL, you can see your MVC Owner ID as "VSE&ownerId=0000000000000"   A Few months back, I created an MVC account with a User ID and PW on ( https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/club-resorts ) but was unable to continue the setup until I could provide a good MVC Owner ID. Well, I used the VSE&ownerid I found on the URL and was granted access. Anyway, this is probably too much work to get the same information logging via vistan.com instead of going directly to MVC. I am used to doing this kind of thing due to my job.   A small caveat, this works most of the time but it looks like our MVC accounts are not super stable yet.


----------



## sponger76

HankW said:


> Once you go to the MVC site via Vistana.com, select Book Vacation Points Club. Now on the URL, you can see your MVC Owner ID as "VSE&ownerId=0000000000000"   A Few months back, I created an MVC account with a User ID and PW on ( https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/club-resorts ) but was unable to continue the setup until I could provide a good MVC Owner ID. Well, I used the VSE&ownerid I found on the URL and was granted access. Anyway, this is probably too much work to get the same information logging via vistan.com instead of going directly to MVC. I am used to doing this kind of thing due to my job.


I did the same thing. But when I log in directly to MVC with the account I set up using that VSE ownerID, I don't actually have access to seeing my points or booking anything.


----------



## dioxide45

HankW said:


> Once you go to the MVC site via Vistana.com, select Book Vacation Points Club. Now on the URL, you can see your MVC Owner ID as "VSE&ownerId=0000000000000"   A Few months back, I created an MVC account with a User ID and PW on ( https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/club-resorts ) but was unable to continue the setup until I could provide a good MVC Owner ID. Well, I used the VSE&ownerid I found on the URL and was granted access. Anyway, this is probably too much work to get the same information logging via vistan.com instead of going directly to MVC. I am used to doing this kind of thing due to my job.


This number seems to be different than the one provided in paperwork for sales. IIR, an MCV owner number on that paperwork was only 8 or 9 digits. This one looks to be 13?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> I called MVC owner services and it says that as a Vistana-only owner with access to enrolled points, we have no MVC number (aka MVC step-children). Therefore although we can elect our points, we have no renting points privilege.
> 
> We would need to buy a minimum qualified deed or points package to rent out or rent from MVC owners.
> 
> Unclear if my enrolled Vistana points would be requalified to to augment or use for rentals or if two separate accounts/portals. He said it should work but I will believe it when I see it.


I beleive the system functions the same regardless if one owns qualified VOIs or unqualified mandatory resale. I think all Club Point transactions go through the "skinnied down" version of the MVC website.


----------



## HankW

sponger76 said:


> I did the same thing. But when I log in directly to MVC with the account I set up using that VSE ownerID, I don't actually have access to seeing my points or booking anything.


Yes, it is pretty buggy.  I guess we should be patient and wait for the comms from MVC on accessing directly. Thanks.


----------



## HankW

dioxide45 said:


> This number seems to be different than the one provided in paperwork for sales. IIR, an MCV owner number on that paperwork was only 8 or 9 digits. This one looks to be 13?


I used this number as my Owner ID and the account was set up.  I guess we can wait for MVC, I was just trying things for fun.


----------



## dioxide45

HankW said:


> I used this number as my Owner ID and the account was set up.  I guess we can wait for MVC, I was just trying things for fun.


Yeah, I am wondering what would happen if someone tried to transfer points to you using that owner number or perhaps the owner number you can sometimes get while at a sales presentation. Will the transfer go through? I don't see anything in the Exchange Procedures that exclude Vistana Abound Members from being able to transfer points to/from another owner.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> This number seems to be different than the one provided in paperwork for sales. IIR, an MCV owner number on that paperwork was only 8 or 9 digits. This one looks to be 13?



Mine is 9 + 4 zeros. Totally different from my actual MVC owner number but goes to the same place.


----------



## tomvc

My Owner ID is 4 digits, followed by the 6 digits of one of my Vistana contract numbers, followed by 3 digits.  I own both Vistana and MVC and the number on the URL ties to the number I see under MVC maintenance fees.


----------



## dioxide45

I looked at my VSE&ownerId and it doesn't seem to have any relation to a Vistana VOI contract number that we have or our MVC owner number.


----------



## jeffm211

HankW said:


> Once you go to the MVC site via Vistana.com, select Book Vacation Points Club. Now on the URL, you can see your MVC Owner ID as "VSE&ownerId=0000000000000"   A Few months back, I created an MVC account with a User ID and PW on ( https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/club-resorts ) but was unable to continue the setup until I could provide a good MVC Owner ID. Well, I used the VSE&ownerid I found on the URL and was granted access. Anyway, this is probably too much work to get the same information logging via vistan.com instead of going directly to MVC. I am used to doing this kind of thing due to my job.   A small caveat, this works most of the time but it looks like our MVC accounts are not super stable yet.


I called MVC Owner Services on Monday and the rep gave me my MVC customer ID. I used it to log into a previously set up MVC account and it took me to a generic owners homepage with absolutely no reference to my account.  This tells me the IT is still screwed up and not even remotely stable.


----------



## dioxide45

jeffm211 said:


> I called MVC Owner Services on Monday and the rep gave me my MVC customer ID. I used it to log into a previously set up MVC account and it took me to a generic owners homepage with absolutely no reference to my account.  This tells me the IT is still screwed up and not even remotely stable.


Truely, if you are a Vistana only owner you don't log in through MarriottVacationClub.com. Your access to Abound is through Vistana.com.


----------



## jeffm211

dioxide45 said:


> Truely, if you are a Vistana only owner you don't log in through MarriottVacationClub.com. Your access to Abound is through Vistana.com.


Got it!  Vistana site was down so thought I’d give it a shot.  Thanks!


----------



## luv_maui

I elected club points for my 2023 WKORV week last Wednesday, but still no points balance.  I called last week and they told me they see I tried to elect but somehow it didn’t go thru.  IT has to fix it, so I’m in limbo land.  Website shows 2023 has been elected but no points balance to book anything.  So frustrating.


----------



## luv_maui

So frustrating.  I called MVC owner services, they see a ticket # for the issue but referred me back to Westin.  Of course, waited 15 minutes before getting someone, they needed my ownership contract # which I provided then got disconnected.  Westin owner services didn’t return my call but the survey returned my call - you can guess my ratings.  I’ll have to followup again later after I have more time.  It’s been a week since I elected club points and still stuck in abyss with no use or access to my club points


----------



## DanCali

luv_maui said:


> So frustrating.  I called MVC owner services, they see a ticket # for the issue but referred me back to Westin.  Of course, waited 15 minutes before getting someone, they needed my ownership contract # which I provided then got disconnected.  Westin owner services didn’t return my call but the survey returned my call - you can guess my ratings.  I’ll have to followup again later after I gave more time.  It’s been a week since I elected club points and still stuck in abyss with no use or access to my club points



I'm surprised you were able to connect. I tried in the last couple of days in afternoons and the message said it's over 1 hour hold. The callback feature never called me back.  I was calling the Elite Line".


----------



## Myrddin12

DanCali said:


> Yes, anyone with 10K Points or less will only have 1 year to use banked Staroptions (after 2025), while owners with 10K-15K points will have 18 months.
> 
> They are clearly aware this is a sensitive issue since they did not make the change immediate like everything else.
> 
> And all the Elite levels lose 1-2 months on the banking deadline:
> 3-Star (~Executive) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
> 4-Star (~Presidential) will be Aug 31 instead of Oct 1
> 5-Star (~Chairman) will be Oct 31 instead of Dec 31


I think the only reason they didn't make the change immediate is to avoid confusion for all of those who already have points banked through 2024.  Anything banked next year would have to be used in 2025 at the latest, so at that point, there won't be any other pending banks that could go the two years.  Really not happy about that change because for those of us who don't have huge levels of points, it won't be easy, or even possible in some cases, to bank up enough points to make reservations at certain locations for certain size rooms for certain amounts of days.  We have been saving up for a Hawaii trip which thanks to the two years, we'll be good to have a two room somewhere, but after this change?  Not going to happen.  And very very unhappy about that.


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## ccclement250

Hi. Here are my questions - 

- What if when I elect the Club Point, and it is not enough to book my home resort as I could via VSN?  (I have no idea how many points are required to book a week stay at my home resort)?
- What happen to the leftover (unused) club points at the end of the year? Do I lose it?
- What if I needed more club points?

Thanks!


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## dioxide45

ccclement250 said:


> Hi. Here are my questions -
> 
> - What if when I elect the Club Point, and it is not enough to book my home resort as I could via VSN?  (I have no idea how many points are required to book a week stay at my home resort)?
> - What happen to the leftover (unused) club points at the end of the year? Do I lose it?
> - What if I needed more club points?
> 
> Thanks!


If you don't have enough, you don't have enough. Right now we don't think 100% Vistana owners can rent/transfer points in. I wouldn't elect Club Points if you are booking a time when it costs more club points than they give you for your VOI. You can check how many club points you get and how much it costs through the Visana.com site by going through one of the links.

Leftover Club Points have to be used before their expiration date of 12/31/2023, but you can bank them ahead at least a year.

Right now we think that if you need more points you have to buy more points, unless we get more clarification on renting/transferring Club Points for owners that don't also own MVC enrolled weeks or points.


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## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see anything in the Exchange Procedures that exclude Vistana Abound Members from being able to transfer points to/from another owner.


In fact it is explicitly included in the FAQs.  Strangely there is an FAQ that prohibits "renting of club points" (is this also the official line on the MVC side?) but another FAQ says:


_VSN Members can transfer some or all of their Club Points for usage by another Owner who is affiliated with Abound by Marriott Vacations™, but Club Points that were previously banked, or transferred may not be transferred again (e.g., if usage of 2023 Club Points is transferred to another Owner, usage of those 2023 Club Points cannot be transferred again)._
_Transferred Club Points retain the Use Year of the Owner who transferred them. For example, if an Owner transferred Club Points to you with a Use Year of January 1 through December 31, 2023, then those transferred Club Points must be used for vacations that take place from January 1 through December 31, 2023._
_Transferred Club Points may not be banked, borrowed, or transferred again._


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## ccclement250

ccclement250 said:


> Hi. Here are my questions -
> 
> - What if when I elect the Club Point, and it is not enough to book my home resort as I could via VSN?  (I have no idea how many points are required to book a week stay at my home resort)?
> - What happen to the leftover (unused) club points at the end of the year? Do I lose it?
> - What if I needed more club points?
> 
> Thanks!


We have 148,100 SOs yearly. We were able to book Maui with that this year. But under Abound, Maui required at least 6000+ !


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## sponger76

ccclement250 said:


> We have 148,100 SOs yearly. We were able to book Maui with that this year. But under Abound, Maui required at least 6000+ !


Which is why planning or at least having a general idea by the election deadline of what you're going to do the next year will be crucial. Some years, electing Abound points might make sense. In other years, it won't.


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## daviator

ccclement250 said:


> We have 148,100 SOs yearly. We were able to book Maui with that this year. But under Abound, Maui required at least 6000+ !


If your plan is to exchange within the family of Vistana properties, it will rarely make sense to do so with Club Points, unless you own in Maui or somewhere else where you get a lot of Club Points with your ownership.

If you own Flex, or if you own at a property that doesn't exchange for many Club Points, you are much better off to NOT elect Abound and just exchange within VSN like you've always been able to do.  Of course, if you're trying to exchange into a property that's not your Home Resort, you'll be subject to the inventory availability at 8 months, which is a big unknown right now.


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## ocdb8r

...or you travel on the shoulders of the VSN seasons which are not as nuanced as Abound.  Just one example - weeks 24 and 25 (last two weeks in June) cost 148,100 StarOptions or 3,950 Abound points at Lagunamar for a 2-bedroom.  I get 148,100 StarOptions or 4950 Abound points when I elect my Platinum Lagunamar week.  If I was going either of these weeks, it makes more sense to elect and reserve with Abound rather than use my home week or StarOptions.  I'd end up with 1,000 Abound points to use elsewhere (or to extend my stay).  

This is just one example, but a more careful examination of the charts shows there are plenty (again, for those to travel not in just "low" season but on the shoulders of the defined VSN seasons...which includes some prime weeks).


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## daviator

ocdb8r said:


> ...or you travel on the shoulders of the VSN seasons which are not as nuanced as Abound.  Just one example - weeks 24 and 25 (last two weeks in June) cost 148,100 StarOptions or 3,950 Abound points at Lagunamar for a 2-bedroom.  I get 148,100 StarOptions or 4950 Abound points when I elect my Platinum Lagunamar week.  If I was going either of these weeks, it makes more sense to elect and reserve with Abound rather than use my home week or StarOptions.  I'd end up with 1,000 Abound points to use elsewhere (or to extend my stay).
> 
> This is just one example, but a more careful examination of the charts shows there are plenty (again, for those to travel not in just "low" season but on the shoulders of the defined VSN seasons...which includes some prime weeks).


Yes, there is a lot more to look at now in trying to make the best use of what we own.  But you also have to consider inventory availability... you might find that the weeks you want are available in VSN but not in Abound, or vice-versa.  Everything will presumably be in different buckets so I expect we are going to have lots more cases like that.


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## kozykritter

daviator said:


> If you own Flex, or if you own at a property that doesn't exchange for many Club Points, you are much better off to NOT elect Abound and just exchange within VSN like you've always been able to do.  Of course, if you're trying to exchange into a property that's not your Home Resort, you'll be subject to the inventory availability at 8 months, which is a big unknown right now.


In general that is likely a sound philosophy for Flex owners but I still feel that looking at all your options on a case by case scenario helps identify the best use of your ownership. Case in point, I was able to snag a Steamboat 2Bed through Abound for 1,000 Club Points, which cost me about 35K Sheraton Flex home options when converted to CP. To book the same thing through VSN is 95,700 SO's. By converting and booking in Abound, I saved 60K SO's! There are sweet spots out there due to different seasonalities between Vistana and MVC charts. I think their advice in the FAQs to check both methods (plus also II) is the way to go to maximize your ownership.


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## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> ...or you travel on the shoulders of the VSN seasons which are not as nuanced as Abound.  Just one example - weeks 24 and 25 (last two weeks in June) cost 148,100 StarOptions or 3,950 Abound points at Lagunamar for a 2-bedroom.  I get 148,100 StarOptions or 4950 Abound points when I elect my Platinum Lagunamar week.  If I was going either of these weeks, it makes more sense to elect and reserve with Abound rather than use my home week or StarOptions.  I'd end up with 1,000 Abound points to use elsewhere (or to extend my stay).
> 
> This is just one example, but a more careful examination of the charts shows there are plenty (again, for those to travel not in just "low" season but on the shoulders of the defined VSN seasons...which includes some prime weeks).


Generally the low demand weeks at WLR can booked as getaways through II and it is hard to beat that cost. Typically to me the best value is Interval (getaways or exchanges), then my home resort, then VSN and a distant last is Abound.

Speaking of getaways, most Westin getaways have currently disappeared from II, I wonder if it is a new strategy or if they completely messed up the Abound inventory in the first day and now they try to find weeks wherever they can.


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## ocdb8r

timsi said:


> Generally the low demand weeks at WLR can booked as getaways through II and it is hard to beat that cost. Typically to me the best value is Interval (getaways or exchanges), then my home resort, then VSN and a distant last is Abound.
> 
> Speaking of getaways, most Westin getaways have currently disappeared from II, I wonder if it is a new strategy or if they completely messed up the Abound inventory in the first day and now they try to find weeks wherever they can.


These are not low demand weeks; we're talking Platinum weeks (in VSN).  I also think the widespread "reports" of getaway availability are overblown, many of which report COVID era weeks.


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## timsi

ocdb8r said:


> These are not low demand weeks; we're talking Platinum weeks (in VSN).  I also think the widespread "reports" of getaway availability are overblown, many of which report COVID era weeks.


Pre-Covid you could always find plenty of June-October WLR weeks in II as getaways  and many times even as AC.


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## timsi

kozykritter said:


> In general that is likely a sound philosophy for Flex owners but I still feel that looking at all your options on a case by case scenario helps identify the best use of your ownership. Case in point, I was able to snag a Steamboat 2Bed through Abound for 1,000 Club Points, which cost me about 35K Sheraton Flex home options when converted to CP. To book the same thing through VSN is 95,700 SO's. By converting and booking in Abound, I saved 60K SO's! There are sweet spots out there due to different seasonalities between Vistana and MVC charts. I think their advice in the FAQs to check both methods (plus also II) is the way to go to maximize your ownership.


This is another example where you still overpaid compared to getaways, there are 2BR units for May 2023 in Interval at $527.


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## VacationForever

....


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## skibummer

*Salesperson said if I elect Abound points from my Vistana weeks I will have little to no inventory access to Marriott inventory (just Marriott legacy weeks inventory) unless I buy a minimum of 1,000 Abound Points to create a "linkage" to have access to all of the Marriott Club Point inventory. Really?!?*

I just attended a sales presentation at SDO (one of the more miserable ones I have ever experienced). I am Chairman's Club and I own only in the Vistana system (no native Marriott ownership). Almost all of my purchases were mandatory resales except for a couple of developer purchases to authorize/qualify some voluntary properties such as Westin Lagunamar. I do not own a flex week products such as Westin or Sheraton Flex. I only own actual deeded weeks in the Vistana system. The main questions for the group/forum is that he told me if I elect Abound/Club Points for my deeded weeks I will have little to no (<10%) actual Marriott inventory to choose from because I will be stuck with only the legacy weeks Marriott inventory, not the main bucket (90+%) of Marriott inventory from Club Points owners. He said the only way to have access to ALL of the inventory is to purchase Abound Points which would create a "linkage" as a hybrid ownership (legacy weeks from Vistana and owning Abound Points from Marriott). 

He said Marriott only sells Abound Points in a minimum of 2,500 Abound Points, but through the end of 2022 ONLY I could get the "special deal" of just having to buy 1,000 Abound Points for $15,000. This would allow me to have access to all the Marriott inventory. Can forum members (Denise?) comment on what he is saying. I'm looking for answers and clarification on what inventory I have access to electing Club Points (Abound)? If it truly is just residual legacy weeks inventory then that sounds like a scam. Thanks in advance for comments and clarifications from what others have heard.


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## byeloe

skibummer said:


> but through the end of 2022 ONLY I could get the "special deal" of just having to buy 1,000 Abound Points for $15,000. This would allow me to have access to all the Marriott inventory


just lies to facilitate a sale.  If you elect for Club points you will have access to all resorts


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