# Keep Hawaii Hawii



## easyrider (Oct 23, 2019)

A BILL being discussed to make all visitors to Hawaii, pledge to Keep Hawaii Hawaii, might actually cost visitors a fee to enter Hawaii is what this looks like. How much , IDK, but it will likely add up. I can see everything a tourist use go up. Airfare, taxi, rental car, timeshare and who knows.

Would this stop me from going to Hawaii? No. Will I complain about it ? Seems I already am, lol.

Bill

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...MP2IzX58Kiy0eAW4M5AnTSAcD0Tm4JQ4bJvtfVgXfIjJ8


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## pedro47 (Oct 23, 2019)

Will this stop or reduce the number of tourist coming to Hawaii? Only time and money loss from Tourism to the Economy will be the final factor. IMO.


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## easyrider (Oct 23, 2019)

I can see us now, getting off the airplane in Kahului, and before leaving the airplane, reciting some sort of odd "Pledge" to " Keep Hawaii Hawaii". I can already hear the Hawaian music in the background as the cash leaves my pocket while I smile and say "whatever". 

Bill


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## PamMo (Oct 23, 2019)

I was approached by a random woman in Kalakapaki Beach Hut in Kauai (next to Marriott's Kauai Beach Club in Lihue) over the summer, and she proceeded to lecture me about my negative impact on Kauai as a visitor to the island. She told me that I should tip the counter service an amount equal to the cost of our meals, to make up for the damage tourists do to the island. Did I know how much I was hurting locals by vacationing on the island? She stood about 12"away from me, and every step I took to the side was met with a side step to block me from moving to my table with my grandchildren. It was extremely uncomfortable, to put it mildly. When I was finally able to extricate myself (and my kids) to our table upstairs, she pounced on other patrons. As much as I love Kauai (my favorite Hawaiian island), if I had many more experiences like that, I would choose to go elsewhere.


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## turkel (Oct 24, 2019)

PamMo said:


> I was approached by a random woman in Kalakapaki Beach Hut in Kauai (next to Marriott's Kauai Beach Club in Lihue) over the summer, and she proceeded to lecture me about my negative impact on Kauai as a visitor to the island. She told me that I should tip the counter service an amount equal to the cost of our meals, to make up for the damage tourists do to the island. Did I know how much I was hurting locals by vacationing on the island? She stood about 12"away from me, and every step I took to the side was met with a side step to block me from moving to my table with my grandchildren. It was extremely uncomfortable, to put it mildly. When I was finally able to extricate myself (and my kids) to our table upstairs, she pounced on other patrons. As much as I love Kauai (my favorite Hawaiian island), if I had many more experiences like that, I would choose to go elsewhere.



That’s crazy! I understand wanting to keep Hawaii, Hawaii but tourism brings $$.

In the Caribbean after the hurricanes they are begging for the tourist to return. I wonder if this is a case of be careful what you ask for!


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 24, 2019)

PamMo said:


> I was approached by a random woman in Kalakapaki Beach Hut in Kauai (next to Marriott's Kauai Beach Club in Lihue) over the summer, and she proceeded to lecture me about my negative impact on Kauai as a visitor to the island. She told me that I should tip the counter service an amount equal to the cost of our meals, to make up for the damage tourists do to the island. Did I know how much I was hurting locals by vacationing on the island? She stood about 12"away from me, and every step I took to the side was met with a side step to block me from moving to my table with my grandchildren. It was extremely uncomfortable, to put it mildly. When I was finally able to extricate myself (and my kids) to our table upstairs, she pounced on other patrons. As much as I love Kauai (my favorite Hawaiian island), if I had many more experiences like that, I would choose to go elsewhere.



This almost seems like a case of being the victim of someone who does not have both feet on the ground to say it nicely without making a diagnosis without credentials.  Since we spend so much time in Honolulu we see this type of thing all the time and we don't even concern ourselves with it at all.  I don't know exactly what is expected of the keep Hawaii Hawaii campaign but I am sure it does not include tipping at 100%.  I do believe it is important to learn about the Hawaiian culture and the History of the United States' part in the overthrow of the Monarch and the Annex of Hawaii.  There is a movement among Native Hawaiians which includes a reinstatement of the Monarch and return of Hawaiian Land to Native Hawaiians which some have been advocating for some time.  While the history has much documentation the solution that is desired by some native Hawaiians makes the 100% tipping request seem minor and ordinary!


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## NTP66 (Oct 24, 2019)

I think everyone else should immediately stop going to Maui......


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 24, 2019)

NTP66 said:


> I think everyone else should immediately stop going to Maui......



That sounds like you like to go to Maui and you would like others to stop going to Maui because of the keep Hawaii Hawaii campaign so you could book your timeshare weeks easily whenever you want to go!!!

That could be said about my statements:  "If you need or want a car on vacation don't stay in Honolulu go to another Hawaiian Island.  They are all different and beautiful.  Why deal with the traffic and parking cost in Honolulu".  However, my statement has a lot of truth to it and if my husband needed or wanted a car on our long vacations we certainly wouldn't be spending it in Honolulu.


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## NTP66 (Oct 24, 2019)




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## Ralph Sir Edward (Oct 24, 2019)

Shrug. Bad publicity, plus it would get shot down in the US Courts, six ways to Sunday.  Rice vs Cayetano is a settled SCOTUS ruling, even if I don't agree with the logic.

But if Hawaii wants to kill "the goose that lays the golden eggs", I hear that Cabo is nice in the winter. . .


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 24, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Shrug. Bad publicity, plus it would get shot down in the US Courts, six ways to Sunday.  Rice vs Cayetano is a settled SCOTUS ruling, even if I don't agree with the logic.
> 
> But if Hawaii wants to kill "the goose that lays the golden eggs", I hear that Cabo is nice in the winter. . .



Hawaii has already implemented and raised the TAT on timeshares a number of times.  No other state in the US has such a tax.  The Hotel and rent a car tax is some of highest in the nation.  Tourists still come in droves, and more come each year.  So in general who pays the TAT, Hotel, Rent a Car tax.  Tourists.  The airfare tax would be one that would effect Hawaiian Residents as well as tourists.

Since we just bought a condo in Waikiki I guess any of the contemplated increases will not be our problem but we can go there to Hawaii and enjoy every year, or maybe not come back to the Continental United States at all.


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## NTP66 (Oct 24, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> ...or maybe not come back to the Continental United States at all.


That's our goal. Just have to wait for our daughter to go to college...


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## easyrider (Oct 24, 2019)

PamMo said:


> I was approached by a random woman in Kalakapaki Beach Hut in Kauai (next to Marriott's Kauai Beach Club in Lihue) over the summer, and she proceeded to lecture me about my negative impact on Kauai as a visitor to the island. She told me that I should tip the counter service an amount equal to the cost of our meals, to make up for the damage tourists do to the island. Did I know how much I was hurting locals by vacationing on the island? She stood about 12"away from me, and every step I took to the side was met with a side step to block me from moving to my table with my grandchildren. It was extremely uncomfortable, to put it mildly. When I was finally able to extricate myself (and my kids) to our table upstairs, she pounced on other patrons. As much as I love Kauai (my favorite Hawaiian island), if I had many more experiences like that, I would choose to go elsewhere.



Lihue has a decent population of locals with some of them hanging out in Nawilliwilli Park getting their buzz on. Like many people with a buzz on these few people can be confrontational for no apparent reason. I guess my point is these few people don't represent the local population. Even so, I get what you are saying. I had a local upset that I had asked for directions at the park. One out of 1000 odds, imo.

Bill


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## PamMo (Oct 24, 2019)

Yes, fortunately, she was an exception to the rule of our experiences in Hawaii.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Oct 24, 2019)

For what it's worth, KAPA FM (Big Island) has cut it's feed to the mainland a few days ago. (KINE FM in Honolulu cut theirs a few months ago).


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## klpca (Oct 24, 2019)

I have family on the BI and I assure you that the negative vibes that you feel are very real. I had an uncomfortable run in with a guy and finally had to ask him if he knew my uncle to get him to back off, but it has put me off of visiting. We will be taking most of our tourist $$ to other places that don't resent us as visitors. Btw, I understand why they are unhappy but they need to complain to their representatives to get other industry on the island and stop being so reliant on tourism.


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## Luanne (Oct 24, 2019)

klpca said:


> I have family on the BI and I assure you that the negative vibes that you feel are very real. I had an uncomfortable run in with a guy and finally had to ask him if he knew my uncle to get him to back off, but it has put me off of visiting. We will be taking most of our tourist $$ to other places that don't resent us as visitors. Btw, I understand why they are unhappy but they need to complain to their representatives to get other industry on the island and stop being so reliant on tourism.


This is so sad.  What happened to the spirit of "Aloha"?  I can understand why we may not be welcome in some other countries, but in parts of our own country?  Hawaii is someplace I've always felt safe, and welcome, visiting.  I will say that so far we have not encountered any negativity when we have been there.


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## klpca (Oct 24, 2019)

Luanne said:


> This is so sad.  What happened to the spirit of "Aloha"?  I can understand why we may not be welcome in some other countries, but in parts of our own country?  Hawaii is someplace I've always felt safe, and welcome, visiting.  I will say that so far we have not encountered any negativity when we have been there.


It is sad. I used to love going but to me, things have changed. Of course because of my heritage, I am respectful. But I don't look or sound Hawaiian so I don't pass as easily as others. I think that there's a lot of exclusivity issues in many cultures today, Hawaii is no different. I think that the aloha spirit is still there but the bad apples are a lot more vocal today. My bad run in was at a Heiau on the BI. I was with friends,  explaining what it was, why it was there etc and a local guy came up and started yelling at us to leave. He honestly acted like it was *his* heiau. I've been all over the world and visited culturally sensitive places. I've never been yelled at before. Plus I am Hawaiian too, at least in bloodline (not culturally as I was born and raised in CA) and I knew that I had as much right to be there as he did. He wouldn't back off though even though we decided to leave - we walked back to the car and he followed us and kept ranting. It was ridiculous. Finally I asked him if he knew my uncle - an elder on the island -  and that shut him up. I really didn't want to have to do that but I was annoyed at being followed. At the end I smoothed things over with the guy who was frustrated at insensitive tourists and I didn't tell my uncle for three years (lol) because I didn't go to Hawaii to cause problems for anyone but I started looking at things differently after that. I've noticed a lot more aggressive driving by locals (big lifted trucks), and in Sept I saw lots of upside down Hawaiian flags being flown (Mauna Kea issue). I don't want to be immersed in another controversy while I am on vacation, so we're taking a break for awhile.
I get that tourism is taking a toll in many ways so I am sympathetic but I don't know what we can do to fix it for them.


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## jestme (Oct 24, 2019)

When they implemented the TAT, I wrote to the then governer and explained to them that besides the name, Hawaii has fallen way behind most other exotic travel places. In general, they have 50-60 year old hotels, super high priced food, few full service resorts, none that offer "all inclusive" that the Carribean, Mexico, and a large number of other travel destinations have and have had for 20 years. In addition, it is a massively long flight, through many time zones for a large number of their guests. (Japan, East coast US, etc.  ) I received nothing back for my efforts to show them the short term thinking of TAT that they eventually adopted. 
Don't get me wrong, I love Hawaii, but if I don't feel wanted there, it isn't MY "Spirit of Aloha" that is missing, it would be theirs. I already find that the $50 for two drinks for two at lunch is somewhat ludicrous, without food. It doesn't take a mathematitian to figure out the total cost of a vacation. There are far more travel locations now that have a much better value per dollar than there were 50 years ago. Ask Florida where their tourism industry would be without Disney. I don't see many people flocking to Miami for vacation like they did in the 60's. Hawaii still depends on "It's Hawaii" to bring tourism back. That will not last forever. 
Japan is a long flight, and HGVC now has many closer locations the Japanese can visit without that long flight and high meal costs in Hawaii, let alone the cultural differences (tips, language, etc. )  
Repeat visitors is the long term life blood of any tourist destination. Owners of timeshares in Hawaii make owners there want to return, but apparently, in Hawaii, they are discouraged, overtaxed, and their growth are stunted, especially on Maui. 
If it wasn't for"it's Hawaii", there isn't much for their tourist board to draw vacationer to. They have nothing else to compete with, and they are trying to compete with 50 year old hotel products, high prices, and very long flights into a market that is new, current, resort focussed (not "resort fee" focussed), lots of new things to do, the people can afford, and are also excited to go to.  

If you want to keep Hawaii "Hawaii" with no tourism, get used to eating pineapples because there is no other industry. Oh, wait. There are no more pineapple plantations there....


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## NTP66 (Oct 24, 2019)

I’ve never had a bad experience with locals in Maui, but even if I did, choosing Mexico or the Caribbean would never cross my mind. They’re both bland in comparison to me. A few bad apples aren’t going to sway me, and as for prices, whatever. If I wanted to vacation somewhere cheap I wouldn’t have chosen Hawai’i in the first place.


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## easyrider (Oct 24, 2019)

Hawaii already has the ninth worse economy in the USA even with a very low unemployment rate. Maybe getting rid of the low paying tourist jobs would be better than keeping them.

Bill

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific...hawaiis-state-economy-among-the-worst-in.html


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Oct 24, 2019)

But replace them with what? The economic "curse" of Hawaii is the large capital price inflows from outside the area. They drive up the costs without increasing the wage base. This isn't just a Hawaii problem, look at the Bay Area. 

I have yet to figure out a good answer. . . .


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## easyrider (Oct 24, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But replace them with what? The economic "curse" of Hawaii is the large capital price inflows from outside the area. They drive up the costs without increasing the wage base. This isn't just a Hawaii problem, look at the Bay Area.
> 
> I have yet to figure out a good answer. . . .



I think they want to replace the low paying tourism jobs with high paying tourism jobs. After all, tourism is the largest segment of Hawaii's economy.

Bill


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## controller1 (Oct 24, 2019)

When the tourists leave the islands so will the taxpayer-financed services Hawaiians have come to enjoy.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 24, 2019)

jestme said:


> I already find that the $50 for two drinks for two at lunch is somewhat ludicrous, without food.



IMHO, this isn't too far out of line with what we've experienced in other mainland resort areas. If I recall correctly, our drinks last week in Palm Desert averaged $11-$12 per drink (except for specials) and when we've had drinks at a bar in Hilton Head, $11-$12 was also fairly typical. So two drinks each for two people for $50 seems not that far out of line with other popular resort areas. In fact, two small lunch salads plus a glass of wine for each of us last week at a winery in Temecula, California was $78. I've never found Hawaii prices to be all that far out of line with other similar tourism spots. All tourism-oriented areas charge above average prices for things tourists like to do. That is not a uniquely Hawaiian thing.


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## SteelerGal (Oct 24, 2019)

My brother lived in Maui for 3yrs before moving back to Mainland.  Pay definitely has not kept up w/ the cost of living.  Especially if you work in the hotel and resort industry.  You often hear the same issues discussed by locals at countries whose focus is largely tourism.


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## tompalm (Oct 25, 2019)

There is a small percentage of the population here that have Hawaiian blood or say they are Hawaiian and they are making a lot of noise. During the last year, the people protesting or the protectors of the Mauna on the big island gained a lot of attention. The governor and mayor of the big island handled the protest wrong and suddenly Hawaiian people all over the state started having rallies, flying the Hawaiian flag everywhere and driving around with their flag on the back of their trucks. They held rallies all over the island and started more protest about building a park in Waimanalo. Now, they are protesting windmills and making up reasons why windmill alternative energy is bad. Most of these people don’t work and live off the government or the people they are complaining about. This is a very small part of the population that is getting a lot of attention, but the bad news is that a lot of locals are being wrongfully influenced. Please forget about any negativity you might see and enjoy your vacation. These people are not worth your time.


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## tompalm (Oct 25, 2019)

One other thing, the bill to keep Hawaii, Hawaii was presented last year and did not pass.  It is just noise.


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## pedro47 (Oct 25, 2019)

How much does the state of Hawaii depends on the tourism economy?
That is the big question IMO.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 25, 2019)

jestme said:


> When they implemented the TAT, I wrote to the then governer and explained to them that besides the name, Hawaii has fallen way behind most other exotic travel places. In general, they have 50-60 year old hotels, super high priced food, few full service resorts, none that offer "all inclusive" that the Carribean, Mexico, and a large number of other travel destinations have and have had for 20 years. In addition, it is a massively long flight, through many time zones for a large number of their guests. (Japan, East coast US, etc.  ) I received nothing back for my efforts to show them the short term thinking of TAT that they eventually adopted.
> Don't get me wrong, I love Hawaii, but if I don't feel wanted there, it isn't MY "Spirit of Aloha" that is missing, it would be theirs. I already find that the $50 for two drinks for two at lunch is somewhat ludicrous, without food. It doesn't take a mathematitian to figure out the total cost of a vacation. There are far more travel locations now that have a much better value per dollar than there were 50 years ago. Ask Florida where their tourism industry would be without Disney. I don't see many people flocking to Miami for vacation like they did in the 60's. Hawaii still depends on "It's Hawaii" to bring tourism back. That will not last forever.
> Japan is a long flight, and HGVC now has many closer locations the Japanese can visit without that long flight and high meal costs in Hawaii, let alone the cultural differences (tips, language, etc. )
> Repeat visitors is the long term life blood of any tourist destination. Owners of timeshares in Hawaii make owners there want to return, but apparently, in Hawaii, they are discouraged, overtaxed, and their growth are stunted, especially on Maui.
> ...



I understand your frustration of the high prices in Hawaii if you stay, eat, and drink at the resorts or touristy restaurants.  However, we can actually stay in Honolulu in our timeshare less expensively than living at home on Long Island.  We don't get a car and the bus for seniors is $1.  We have 3 cars at home to fuel, maintain, insure, and buy.   Of course in our timeshare we don't pay for heating, hot/cold water, electric, cable, soap, shampoo, conditioner, lotion, dish detergent, paper towels, toilet paper, clothes detergent, pest control, security system monitoring; all of which we must pay for at home.  We stay at the Hilton Hawaiian Village for months, however, we rarely if ever eat and drink there.  I don't mean going to other places in Waikiki which are usually as expensive or more.   First of all we usually eat breakfast and lunch in our timeshare unit with food that we get from either Target, Walmart or Sam's which have the same prices at home.  We eat many other dinners in the room although we do go out to eat at least 4 or 5 times a week.  When we do go out to eat we have salad and drinks in the timeshare.  If we do go our to eat and drink an example of the places we go to is Gordon Biersch in Aloha Tower for happy hour.  Two years ago they had 21 oz craft beer for $3 on Tuesday.  Now it is more; $5.50 all the time.  There are all kinds of specials every week like $15 off 2 entrees, or buy one get one free.  Another bargain for Sam's members is there food court where you usually get dinner for about $5.  If you get involved in the larger Honolulu area it is a great place and not too expensive.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 25, 2019)

klpca said:


> It is sad. I used to love going but to me, things have changed. Of course because of my heritage, I am respectful. But I don't look or sound Hawaiian so I don't pass as easily as others. I think that there's a lot of exclusivity issues in many cultures today, Hawaii is no different. I think that the aloha spirit is still there but the bad apples are a lot more vocal today. My bad run in was at a Heiau on the BI. I was with friends,  explaining what it was, why it was there etc and a local guy came up and started yelling at us to leave. He honestly acted like it was *his* heiau. I've been all over the world and visited culturally sensitive places. I've never been yelled at before. Plus I am Hawaiian too, at least in bloodline (not culturally as I was born and raised in CA) and I knew that I had as much right to be there as he did. He wouldn't back off though even though we decided to leave - we walked back to the car and he followed us and kept ranting. It was ridiculous. Finally I asked him if he knew my uncle - an elder on the island -  and that shut him up. I really didn't want to have to do that but I was annoyed at being followed. At the end I smoothed things over with the guy who was frustrated at insensitive tourists and I didn't tell my uncle for three years (lol) because I didn't go to Hawaii to cause problems for anyone but I started looking at things differently after that. I've noticed a lot more aggressive driving by locals (big lifted trucks), and in Sept I saw lots of upside down Hawaiian flags being flown (Mauna Kea issue). I don't want to be immersed in another controversy while I am on vacation, so we're taking a break for awhile.
> I get that tourism is taking a toll in many ways so I am sympathetic but I don't know what we can do to fix it for them.



We have never had a local confront us about being a tourist and not belonging. We have heard about that type of confrontation in some of the other areas in the Hawaiian Islands.   We were in Maui about 10 years ago and drove to one of the surf spots that was frequented only by locals.  We did get some unusual stares that gave a message "what are you doing here".  Since we mostly stay in Honolulu so it doesn't concern us.  If we were going to hang out or live in some of the rural areas on any of the islands it would be a concern.  Some of the local are very mad.  The issue is real but we are moving forward in what we feel comfortable doing in Hawaii.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 25, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> How much does the state of Hawaii depends on the tourism economy?
> That is the big question IMO.



The Military and Tourism are the 2 biggest industries in the economy in Hawaii.  They are trying to build up their agriculture but the expensive labor situation makes it difficult.  I have suggested to some local farmers and agriculture advocates that there are a whole lot of people on the southern boarder of the continental United States that would love to provide some inexpensive labor just as the sugar and Pineapple plantations of yesteryear brought the Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Filipino farm workers to Hawaii.


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## tompalm (Oct 25, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> How much does the state of Hawaii depends on the tourism economy?
> That is the big question IMO.



Tourism and the military is everything driving the economy. But it is not the locals that decided to raise TAT or the cost to tourist. The politicians are looking for ways to collect more money with every possible mean.  That is happening everywhere. TAT in Seattle, San Francisco, New York and many other places is equal to or higher than Hawaii.  I just came back from Tallahassee and rented a car for one week that cost $180. But the local tax was $90. That is a 50 percent tax that people pay because they don’t have a choice. That city gets a lot of travelers on a business trip that have to deal with the governor or someone at the capitol. They raise the tax because people will pay it. I normally fly into Orlando or Atlanta and rent a car to save money. Flights are $650 RT to other cities and cost $1000 to Tallahassee.  But this last trip was to short and I just decided to pay the extra expense. That is what most people do.  At some point, tourism in Hawaii will slow down and they will decrease the tax or find incentives


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## geist1223 (Oct 25, 2019)

How far back in time should one go to determine original inhabitants. The Polynesians should all leave and give Hawaii back to the birds and seals.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 26, 2019)

tompalm said:


> Tourism and the military is everything driving the economy. But it is not the locals that decided to raise TAT or the cost to tourist. The politicians are looking for ways to collect more money with every possible mean.  That is happening everywhere. TAT in Seattle, San Francisco, New York and many other places is equal to or higher than Hawaii.  I just came back from Tallahassee and rented a car for one week that cost $180. But the local tax was $90. That is a 50 percent tax that people pay because they don’t have a choice. That city gets a lot of travelers on a business trip that have to deal with the governor or someone at the capitol. They raise the tax because people will pay it. I normally fly into Orlando or Atlanta and rent a car to save money. Flights are $650 RT to other cities and cost $1000 to Tallahassee.  But this last trip was to short and I just decided to pay the extra expense. That is what most people do.  At some point, tourism in Hawaii will slow down and they will decrease the tax or find incentives



I agree it is not the "locals" if you mean specifically the Native Hawaiians as your definition of the "locals".  However, while you are correct is it the politicians(who are local people) that are looking for ways to collect more money with every means possible, implementing a TAT or other tax that is paid for by transients doesn't effect the "local people" negatively by raising their taxes.  Furthering that thought the property taxes in Hawaii, which are mostly paid by "local people", is extremely low compared to Long Island where we live.  About 1/10 the amount for the value of the property.

Now I will give you a contrary thought which is one of my pet peeves about Hawaii taxes which I don't understand the logic.  The sales tax which in Hawaii is called a GET, General Excise Tax" is between 4-5% is low relative to where we live where it approaches 9%.  However, the GET is on everything including all the food bought in supermarkets.  In NY supermarket food is not taxed.  "Local people", as well as lower income people" buy a lot more supermarket food than transients and the wealthy, therefore, taxing supermarket food is regressive tax which negatively effects the "local people" and the low income people.  No clue why that is, they could eliminate the tax of supermarket food and raise the sales tax on everything else a small amount to collect the same amount of money.

As far a the TAT in the cities you mention.  I don't know about Seattle and San Francisco, however, we were just in New York in August and September staying at a NY Hilton Timeshare and we didn't pay anything when we checked out.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 26, 2019)

Any in Hawaii the TAT is to "occupy" something that you already paid property tax on.  They did it because they know that the majority of owners and users of those timeshares are not voters.  But it essentially a double tax.  Because they can. 

The entire history of civilizations is occupy and rule, been happening for tens of thousands of years now.  Having it be the "Hawaiian's Hawaii", then what came before them that they displaced.  You can't go back in time to just the point of history you want and claim that is the perfect time to move back to and restore. 

History is littered with civilization that were taken over and defeated.  Take your pick, what is the correct one to try to revert to....there is NO correct answer. 
http://www.localhistories.org/world.html


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## JIMinNC (Oct 26, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> The entire history of civilizations is occupy and rule, been happening for tens of thousands of years now.  Having it be the "Hawaiian's Hawaii", then what came before them that they displaced.  You can't go back in time to just the point of history you want and claim that is the perfect time to move back to and restore.
> 
> History is littered with civilization that were taken over and defeated.  Take your pick, what is the correct one to try to revert to....there is NO correct answer.
> http://www.localhistories.org/world.html



The Hawaiians would argue that their history is much simpler than other ancient civilizations in Europe, North America, and Asia, so it is easier to trace to where they began to lose their native culture.

Most historians believe the first Polynesian settlers arrived sometime in the 500AD to 1000AD range. Those are believed to be the first human occupants of the islands, and are the original Hawaiians. They would be the civilization that ruled the islands for as much as 1000 years, before the Europeans arrived in the 1700s. Even then, the Hawaiian people still ruled their land, and in fact, the weapons that Kamehameha I acquired from the Europeans allowed him to unify the islands and create the Kingdom of Hawaii.

The changes started happening when the American missionaries came to the islands in the 1800s, followed by American sugar plantations. They banned many Hawaiian traditions (like hula) on religious grounds, and the plantation owners forced a new constitution that disenfranchised the rights of many native Hawaiians to the benefit of the Americans. This ultimately led to Hawaii being a US territory and then a state.

While it is correct that occupy and rule has been part of history as long as there have been civilizations, there is often anger and resentment in the occupied cultures that never goes away. Many of todays problems in the Middle East have their roots in sectarian/cultural/religious conflicts that have been festering for hundreds or thousands of years and were exacerbated by the European occupation and subdivision of the Middle East. Fortunately, the resentment in Hawaii hasn't reached those levels.


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## tompalm (Oct 26, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree it is not the "locals" if you mean specifically the Native Hawaiians as your definition of the "locals".  However, while you are correct is it the politicians(who are local people) that are looking for ways to collect more money with every means possible, implementing a TAT or other tax that is paid for by transients doesn't effect the "local people" negatively by raising their taxes.  Furthering that thought the property taxes in Hawaii, which are mostly paid by "local people", is extremely low compared to Long Island where we live.  About 1/10 the amount for the value of the property.
> 
> Now I will give you a contrary thought which is one of my pet peeves about Hawaii taxes which I don't understand the logic.  The sales tax which in Hawaii is called a GET, General Excise Tax" is between 4-5% is low relative to where we live where it approaches 9%.  However, the GET is on everything including all the food bought in supermarkets.  In NY supermarket food is not taxed.  "Local people", as well as lower income people" buy a lot more supermarket food than transients and the wealthy, therefore, taxing supermarket food is regressive tax which negatively effects the "local people" and the low income people.  No clue why that is, they could eliminate the tax of supermarket food and raise the sales tax on everything else a small amount to collect the same amount of money.
> 
> As far a the TAT in the cities you mention.  I don't know about Seattle and San Francisco, however, we were just in New York in August and September staying at a NY Hilton Timeshare and we didn't pay anything when we checked out.



There is no tax to pay when you stay in a timeshare. You already paid property tax on the property that you own. I have stayed in the Hilton Timeshares in Waikiki many times and never paid tax. The hotels all charge GET and TAT that is pretty close to New York City.  Below is the current tax for New York.

*NYC hotel taxes* are 14.75% plus $3.50 per room per night.

I think the city tries to make living in Hawaii affordable by keeping property tax low. Living here requires people to accept a lower standard of living for housing. The cost has always been high, but a lower property tax helps people that own homes and it keeps rent a little lower too.


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## tompalm (Oct 27, 2019)

Some other city tax comparison. 

Within the City of *Seattle*, the *tax rate* for *hotel* and motel facilities with 60 or more units is 15.6%.

*Hotel* fees in *San Francisco* include 14 percent occupancy *tax*, 0.195 percent California Tourism fee, and an 1.5 - 2.25 percent Tourism Improvement District assessment dependent upon the location of the *hotel* property.

*Chicago hotel* guests pay a combined 17.4 percent *tax* on their rooms


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 27, 2019)

tompalm said:


> There is no tax to pay when you stay in a timeshare. You already paid property tax on the property that you own. I have stayed in the Hilton Timeshares in Waikiki many times and never paid tax. The hotels all charge GET and TAT that is pretty close to New York City.  Below is the current tax for New York.
> 
> *NYC hotel taxes* are 14.75% plus $3.50 per room per night.
> 
> I think the city tries to make living in Hawaii affordable by keeping property tax low. Living here requires people to accept a lower standard of living for housing. The cost has always been high, but a lower property tax helps people that own homes and it keeps rent a little lower too.



I don't know if we are talking about the same things here.  I am talking timeshare stays.   When you check out of *Hilton Timeshares in Waikiki* your credit card is not charged for an Occupancy Tax for each night depending on the size of the accommodation?   I have stayed over 1000 nights there and always pay that tax!!

I have no clue what the NYC hotel tax is, I have never stayed there in a Hotel, but as I said when we checked out of the *NY Hilton Timeshare earlier this month and we paid NO tax!!
*
As far as Hawaii keeping the property tax low I have some thoughts:  I agree that keeping the property tax low helps people that own homes.  This is good to allow low income people to continue to stay in their houses.  (That is one of the reasons I am dismayed by the regressive GET on supermarket food!).  However, the low property taxes for low income people could be accomplished by a low income property tax exception which is what NYS has implemented.  

In addition, the low property taxes also helps people that don't live in Hawaii pay low property taxes on second homes of very expensive real estate.  It keeps real estate prices high since when you buy million dollar houses or condo the property taxes are only about $3000/year.  We pay $8,000/year on a house that is worth about $300,000 on Long Island.  With that level of assessment the property taxes on a million dollar house in Hawaii would be about $25,000/year.  If absentee owners in Hawaii had to pay that level of tax on million dollar real estate the demand and investment property prices would probably not be that high or if it was Hawaii would be getting some nice revenue for those expensive properties to solve some of their revenue problems. 

What do you mean by a "lower standard of living for housing" in Hawaii.  Except for the quality of the public schools, which I will discuss in more detail below, we feel that the standard of living in Waikiki is higher than where we live on Long Island!  

The quality of public schools in Hawaii is not good.  The public schools in Hawaii are underfunded and teachers are underpaid particularly with the high cost of living.  The teachers on Long Island make about twice what the teachers make in Hawaii, however, the schools are funded with property taxes.  Since the quality of public schools in Hawaii is not good, people with significant income send their kids to Private Schools.  That continues to have negative effects on public schools.  The kids from lower income families don't have the opportunity to mix and socialize with the kids from upper income families and the upper income families don't have a vestige interest in the quality of the public schools since their children aren't and won't be going to those schools.   Therefore, the absentee owners who don't have kids in any schools in Hawaii and the people with higher incomes who live in Hawaii want to keep the property taxes low and have little to no interest in providing better funding to upgrade public schools from property taxes!!


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## controller1 (Oct 27, 2019)

tompalm said:


> There is no tax to pay when you stay in a timeshare.



*UPDATED*:

In Hawaii there has been a tax on timeshare stays since 1998.  It is derived by taking the maintenance fees of the unit, dividing that number by 2, then dividing by the number of days associated with your maintenance fee (usually 7) . That result is then multiplied by the tax rate.

The tax rate enacted in 1998 was 7.25%. In 2014 the tax rate was 9.25% and it is currently 10.25% as of January 2018.

I can confirm to the penny that is exactly how the TAT charged to me for our use of a 2-bedroom lockoff at The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North was charged for our 7-day stay in September 2019.

http://files.hawaii.gov/tax/legal/brochures/tat_brochure.pdf


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> In Hawaii there has been a tax on timeshare stays since 1998.  It is derived by taking the maintenance fees of the unit, dividing that number by 2, then dividing by the number of days you stay. That result is then multiplied by the tax rate.
> 
> The tax rate enacted in 1998 was 7.25%. In 2014 the tax rate was 9.25% and it is currently 10.25% as of July 2019.



I have paid the tax since 2007 and I never knew how it was calculated but I knew it varied on unit size.  However, I don't know if that formula could be used to calculate the TAT for the length of our stay which is about 100 nights in a Studio.  If the maintenance in a Studio is $1000 divided by 2 is $500.  That divided by say 100 is $5.  That multiplied by 10.25% is only about $.50.  I know I pay about $4.00 now.


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## SmithOp (Oct 27, 2019)

I just paid $8.68 a night TAT for a one bedroom timeshare in Hawaii.  I wonder how Tom gets away with not paying it?







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## controller1 (Oct 27, 2019)

deleted


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## controller1 (Oct 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> *UPDATED*:
> 
> In Hawaii there has been a tax on timeshare stays since 1998.  It is derived by taking the maintenance fees of the unit, dividing that number by 2, then dividing by the number of days associated with your maintenance fee (usually 7) . That result is then multiplied by the tax rate.
> 
> ...



*See UPDATED post and calculation above *


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## tompalm (Oct 27, 2019)

I use all my points to stay in Las Vegas, Orlando and San Diego and stay in Waikiki when rooms are available at last minute or the 30 day open season window.  I just called the Lagoon front desk and asked about TAT on Timeshares and was told open season reservations do not have to pay. I guess it might have been included when I paid for the room and that was such a great deal at $80- $120 per night that I didn’t pay attention to the total cost because it was so cheap. I need to go back and look to see what it was, but it has been several years since I stayed.  In 2009, I went down with friends and booked three rooms one month and went back a couple other times that year. Things were very slow during the last recession. I think open season cost more these days and I have not seen it available in a long time.

She did say the TAT was $5-$30 depending on the size of the room, or studios are $5, one bedroom less than $10, etc... Sorry for any confusion that I caused with this.  I have yet to be charged in other places I stay. I hope this TAT thing doesn’t catch on in other areas.

I don’t agree with how the local politicians treat tourist. I think it will have a negative impact someday. I know the price to play golf cost twice as much in Hawaii when you are from out of state and I don’t like that either.  Not much I can do about it.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> *See UPDATED post and calculation above *



Thank you Controller for sending the information about how the TAT is calculated.  After reading it I think my calculation might be done accurately this way.  The maintenance for the entire 2 BR lockout of which my Studio is a small portion might be $2000.  Therefore the Studio maintenance would be about $560.  Divided by 2 is $280.  Divided by 7 days is $40.  Multiplied by the 10.25% rate would be about $4.  That makes total sense.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 27, 2019)

tompalm said:


> I use all my points to stay in Las Vegas, Orlando and San Diego and stay in Waikiki when rooms are available at last minute or the 30 day open season window.  I just called the Lagoon front desk and asked about TAT on Timeshares and was told open season reservations do not have to pay. I guess it might have been included when I paid for the room and that was such a great deal at $80- $120 per night that I didn’t pay attention to the total cost because it was so cheap. I need to go back and look to see what it was, but it has been several years since I stayed.  In 2009, I went down with friends and booked three rooms one month and went back a couple other times that year. Things were very slow during the last recession. I think open season cost more these days and I have not seen it available in a long time.
> 
> She did say the TAT was $5-$30 depending on the size of the room, or studios are $5, one bedroom less than $10, etc... Sorry for any confusion that I caused with this.  I have yet to be charged in other places I stay. I hope this TAT thing doesn’t catch on in other areas.
> 
> I don’t agree with how the local politicians treat tourist. I think it will have a negative impact someday. I know the price to play golf cost twice as much in Hawaii when you are from out of state and I don’t like that either.  Not much I can do about it.



Since I have been a tourist for the last 12 years I have to agree somewhat that the local politicians do treat the tourists as the golden goose.  While the Hotel tax and sales tax(GET) are in line or lower than other cities, the TAT is an additional tax that other cities in the US don't charge and falls mainly on the tourists.

However, as I mentioned in a previous post while the sales tax (the GET) is actually lower than where we live and most other cities it includes supermarket food and that aspect does NOT target tourists but the lower income Hawaii Residents.  That is something that I don't understand but if I become a voting Hawaiian Resident I will voice my concern.  )Even as tourists we have gone to the Capital for the opening of the Legislature in January).  I would raise the GET a small amount and exclude supermarket type food to keep revenue neutral.  

Furthermore, I understand that while schools where we live are funded by property taxes, in Hawaii they are funded by the State which gets it revenue from an Income Tax, the GET, the TAT and other sources that both Hawaii Residents as well Tourists pay.  There is little justification for tourists to pay to Educate Hawaii's Children.  While not everyone has children IMHO being a resident and citizen of a community it is your responsibility and to your ultimate benefit to support the public education of the youth.   As I mentioned before, the schools in Hawaii are not well funded and the teachers are poorly paid.  Therefore, raising the property tax particularly focused on absentee owners, which I now also pay, with a property tax exemption, would be a good thing to raise the level of education in Hawaii.


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## controller1 (Oct 27, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> Furthermore, I understand that while schools where we live are funded by property taxes, in Hawaii they are funded by the State which gets it revenue from an Income Tax, the GET, the TAT and other sources that both Hawaii Residents as well Tourists pay.  There is little justification for tourists to pay to Educate Hawaii's Children.  While not everyone has children IMHO being a resident and citizen of a community it is your responsibility and to your ultimate benefit to support the public education of the youth.   As I mentioned before, the schools in Hawaii are not well funded and the teachers are poorly paid.  Therefore, raising the property tax particularly focused on absentee owners, which I now also pay, with a property tax exemption, would be a good thing to raise the level of education in Hawaii.



Hawaii is far from the only state where taxes generated from non-residents are utilized for public education.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Hawaii is far from the only state where taxes generated from non-residents are utilized for public education.



I know I am sure New York City does the same since property taxes there are low, and by the way the public schools except for the elite and specialty schools are poor.  The reason I brought this up was the the issue of the Hawaii's local politicians raising revenue by targeting tourists with taxes and I have a problem with using the pot that the Get and TAT funds go into for public schools.   Paying for services that tourists use and need such as Emergency Services, Police, Roads, Street Lighting, Public Transportation, Airports, Parks, Beaches, Refuse Removal etc. should be the purpose of those revenue sources.


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## tompalm (Oct 28, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I know I am sure New York City does the same since property taxes there are low, and by the way the public schools except for the elite and specialty schools are poor.  The reason I brought this up was the the issue of the Hawaii's local politicians raising revenue by targeting tourists with taxes and I have a problem with using the pot that the Get and TAT funds go into for public schools.   Paying for services that tourists use and need such as Emergency Services, Police, Roads, Street Lighting, Public Transportation, Airports, Parks, Beaches, Refuse Removal etc. should be the purpose of those revenue sources.[/QUOTE
> 
> Send the mayor a letter. He is at the bottom of my list of politicians that I don’t like. He is responsible for most of how tax is collected and spent. My friend led the fight for Home Sharing on Oahu and wanted me to attend a hearing with him and make a statement to stop the city from shutting down Air BnB. It turned out that we went to hearings every month that the city council listened too and after a year, the council reported to the mayor that the people wanted to keep home sharing or Air BnB. He shut it down anyway and did what he wanted to do. He will do whatever gets him the most votes. I think he plans to run for governor and will have all the union folks voting for him. He will probably get elected and it will be business as usual. Oh, only send that letter to the mayor if it makes you feel better.  He doesn’t care what you think or what I think. Don’t expect things to change until it has an impact on the economy.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 28, 2019)

We have NOT gotten involved with the politics in Hawaii as of yet since we are not citizens.  I think we will start with some of the legislators and get a feel for where they are at on some of the issues that we feel strong about.  For instance raising the property tax to fund education would be unpopular to most voters, but if you accompany that with not taxing supermarket food it may make sense and for the middle and lower income people it could be a wash.  However, the real estate industry would hate it.  They love to being able to sell million dollar homes with a relative pittance for property taxes.  That is probably a very strong lobby and the main reason why they keep it low so that real estate can continue to be off the hook high!!


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## LisaRex (Oct 28, 2019)

While I understand the desire to preserve Hawaiian culture, I also think that initiatives like "Keep Hawaii Hawaii" are xenophobic.  My hometown, Cincinnati, used to have a huge white German Catholic population in a part of town called Over The Rhine.  In recent decades, it's turned largely African American.  If I started an initiative to "Keep OTR OTR" with the argument that we need to preserve the Germanic white culture, people would argue that: a) I'm glorifying the past; b) Nothing ever stays the same; and b) I'm being racist. 

Last time I was on Oahu, a tour operator told me a bit about state-funded privileges for people who could prove that they were more than 50% Hawaiian ancestry, and the privileges were significant:  Free private education, $1 free leaseholds on land for 99 years, and subsidized loans for building homes.  He said that it was a source of great pride to have a higher "quantum," which was his word for how much Hawaiian blood you have.  I have to admit that I found "quantum" a pretty racist policy.  Why should someone whose great-great-great grandfather happened to emigrate earlier than another Hawaiian enjoy all these subsidies? Makes no sense.  

Love it or hate it, Hawaii is tourist dependent now.  The pineapple and sugar plantations are a thing of the past. And if they really want tourists to stay away, then they really should come up with a Plan B for surviving.  As Bruce Springsteen sang, "They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks.  Foreman says these jobs are going, boys, and they ain't coming back."  Either adapt or die.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 29, 2019)

LisaRex said:


> While I understand the desire to preserve Hawaiian culture, I also think that initiatives like "Keep Hawaii Hawaii" are xenophobic.  My hometown, Cincinnati, used to have a huge white German Catholic population in a part of town called Over The Rhine.  In recent decades, it's turned largely African American.  If I started an initiative to "Keep OTR OTR" with the argument that we need to preserve the Germanic white culture, people would argue that: a) I'm glorifying the past; b) Nothing ever stays the same; and b) I'm being racist.
> 
> Last time I was on Oahu, a tour operator told me a bit about state-funded privileges for people who could prove that they were more than 50% Hawaiian ancestry, and the privileges were significant:  Free private education, $1 free leaseholds on land for 99 years, and subsidized loans for building homes.  He said that it was a source of great pride to have a higher "quantum," which was his word for how much Hawaiian blood you have.  I have to admit that I found "quantum" a pretty racist policy.  Why should someone whose great-great-great grandfather happened to emigrate earlier than another Hawaiian enjoy all these subsidies? Makes no sense.
> 
> Love it or hate it, Hawaii is tourist dependent now.  The pineapple and sugar plantations are a thing of the past. And if they really want tourists to stay away, then they really should come up with a Plan B for surviving.  As Bruce Springsteen sang, "They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks.  Foreman says these jobs are going, boys, and they ain't coming back."  Either adapt or die.



I totally agree that Hawaii needs to come up with new industry for sources of employment and revenue.  The Mostly Native Hawaiian definition is based on being native to Hawaii before European immigration into the islands, not when your ancestors immigrated to Hawaii.  Furthermore, rather than your Germantown example I would use the Native American(Native Indian) in the Continental United States.  The Native Americans have been given loads of free land(Reservations).  There are many grants and privileges given to Native Americans.  Of course, Continental United States is so large compared to Hawaii that the method of reparation has to be somewhat different so it is different.


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## SmithOp (Oct 29, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree that Hawaii needs to come up with new industry for sources of employment and revenue.  The Mostly Native Hawaiian definition is based on being native to Hawaii before European immigration into the islands, not when your ancestors immigrated to Hawaii.  Furthermore, rather than your Germantown example I would use the Native American(Native Indian) in the Continental United States.  The Native Americans have been given loads of free land(Reservations).  There are many grants and privileges given to Native Americans.  Of course, Continental United States is so large compared to Hawaii that the method of reparation has to be somewhat different so it is different.



Makes you wonder why Native Hawaiians haven’t been given the same status as other Native Americans, then they could build a few casinos...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## bogey21 (Oct 29, 2019)

Many moons ago I had to pay an Exit Fee when I left Venezuela.  I think it was something like $25...

George


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## 1Kflyerguy (Oct 29, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Makes you wonder why Native Hawaiians haven’t been given the same status as other Native Americans, then they could build a few casinos...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



The last thing Hawaii needs is a bunch of casinos...  we can keep those on the 9th Island....

I think the difference is that the native Americans were forcibly relocated to the reservations..  and with the Hawaiians we just co-located with them..

Maybe I am too skeptical, but i don't making visitors sign a pledge to respect and keep Hawaii as Hawaiian will make much of change...    As well the environmentalist in me wondering what they are going to do with all those signed forms..  seems wasteful..


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## geist1223 (Oct 29, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree that Hawaii needs to come up with new industry for sources of employment and revenue.  The Mostly Native Hawaiian definition is based on being native to Hawaii before European immigration into the islands, not when your ancestors immigrated to Hawaii.  Furthermore, rather than your Germantown example I would use the Native American(Native Indian) in the Continental United States.  The Native Americans have been given loads of free land(Reservations).  There are many grants and privileges given to Native Americans.  Of course, Continental United States is so large compared to Hawaii that the method of reparation has to be somewhat different so it is different.



Because we can not get political I will not talk in detail about how horrible the Native Indians of the USA have been treated and how horrible life is on most Reservations.


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## tompalm (Oct 29, 2019)

I just realize I posted above, but it got hidden. I think I accidentally deleted the bracket around Quote. Anyway, don’t spend to much time with politics in Hawaii.  It is not worth the trouble. If you want to complain......

Send the mayor a letter. He is at the bottom of my list of politicians that I don’t like. He is responsible for most of how tax is collected and spent. My friend led the fight for Home Sharing on Oahu and wanted me to attend a hearing with him and make a statement to stop the city from shutting down Air BnB. It turned out that we went to hearings every month that the city council listened too and after a year, the council reported to the mayor that the people want to keep home sharing or Air BnB. He shut it down anyway and did what he wanted to do. He will do whatever gets him the most votes. I think he plans to run for governor and will have all the union folks voting for him. He will probably get elected and it will be business as usual. Oh, only send that letter to the mayor if it makes you feel better. He doesn’t care what you think or what I think. Don’t expect things to change until it has an impact on the economy.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 29, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> Because we can not get political I will not talk in detail about how horrible the Native Indians of the USA have been treated and how horrible life is on most Reservations.



I agree with your thoughts about how horribly Native Americans have been treated.  My comments on the benefits that Native Hawaiians have been given is to assert that it was a form of reparation as are the benefits that Native Americans have been given.  In both cases foreigners came to these lands and disturbed the lives of the Natives and and took control of their land and their country.


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## bizaro86 (Oct 29, 2019)

What would happen if you refused to sign? I don't think US citizens can be denied entry to another US state. Maybe you get a state mandated lecture when you get off the plane?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Oct 30, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Makes you wonder why Native Hawaiians haven’t been given the same status as other Native Americans, then they could build a few casinos...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



The Supreme Court ruled against that claim. Rice vs Cayetano is the settled SCOTUS ruling.


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## easyrider (Nov 2, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> What would happen if you refused to sign? I don't think US citizens can be denied entry to another US state. Maybe you get a state mandated lecture when you get off the plane?
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law



If you don't sign maybe you get the stink eye. 

Bill


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 2, 2019)

While most of my posts in this tread have supported the benefits that Native Hawaiian have due to the negative impact on Hawaii Culture and Life that Europeans and Americans had on the islands over the last couple of centuries, I just clicked on and read the Hawaii News Now blurb with which Easyrider started off this tread.  The last line which says the panel is considering a measure urging the State Legislature to begin tourism impact fees.  Well since tourism is one of the two main sources of income into the economy perhaps they will be giving tourists some money when they get off the plane or ship since tourism has such a positive impact on the Hawaii Economy!

_HONOLULU, Hawaii (HawaiiNewsNow) - A bill that would require all visitors to sign a pledge to “Keep Hawaii Hawaii” is up for discussion at Honolulu Hale on Tuesday.

A City Council committee will take a look at Bill 51, which would work with airlines and cruise ships to make visitors more aware of Hawaii’s culture, people and natural resources.

“We’re getting to a point that if we don’t as a city get involved in managing our tourism better, then the residents are going to start turning against our no. 1 economy," said City Councilwoman Kymberly Pine, who introduced the measure. "That could hurt us in the long run, so we have to get a grasp on this now.”

Similar initiatives have been started on Hawaii Island and Kauai. But this would be the first by a government agency.

The panel will also consider a measure urging the state Legislature to begin tourism impact fees. Those fees would be added to the cost of airline and cruise ship tickets purchased by non-Hawaii residents._


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## pedro47 (Nov 2, 2019)

I do not liked that last sentence in the above above post.  Why are fees added to the cost of airline and cruise ship tickets purchase by non Hawaii residents.??? That is not fair.  IMO.

That is Taxation only to Tourist. Why not Tax everyone flying and cruising into
Hawaii. IMHO.

Will they tax the U.S. military and government workers ?


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## easyrider (Nov 2, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> I do not liked that last sentence in the above above post.  Why are fees added to the cost of airline and cruise ship tickets purchase by non Hawaii residents.??? That is not fair.  IMO.
> 
> That is Taxation only to Tourist. Why not Tax everyone flying and cruising into
> Hawaii. IMHO.
> ...



They already have a Kama'aina rate. Kama'aina rates are for Hawaiian residents. I think what they are after is a Malihini rate. So they keep the Kama"aina rates which are lower rates for Hawaiian residents and add a higher Malihini rate for non-residents. 

Even though the Kama'aina rate is a lower rate , for the most part it didn't raise the Milihini rate, it was just a lower rate. Also, this isn't really a tax but more like a fee. A fee can be added subjectively to anything. A tax has to be voted in is how I think this works.

I'm actually for it. The BILL could raise enough money to get the homeless off the streets and the mentally ill off the streets before Hawaii becomes another stink hole like many places in the USA. 

Bill


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 2, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> I do not liked that last sentence in the above above post.  Why are fees added to the cost of airline and cruise ship tickets purchase by non Hawaii residents.??? That is not fair.  IMO.
> 
> That is Taxation only to Tourist. Why not Tax everyone flying and cruising into
> Hawaii. IMHO.
> ...



For the record, that last sentence was NOT my post it was a quote from a Hawaii News Now article that was attached to easyrider's post that started this tread.

I agree with your thoughts about taxing everyone.  I feel strongly that imposing taxes that specifically target tourists as the article suggests in not good public relations in welcoming tourists as well as discriminatory.  As I suggested in a previous post above Hawaii should stop taxing supermarket type food with the GET, Hawaii's version of a sales tax.  To raise additional income they should raise the Get % on everything else which would lower the taxes on lower income people who buy mostly supermarket food and raise the taxes on tourists and higher income people who buy more luxury goods and eat more meals in a restaurant.  Since the GET does NOT say tourist, it would not be as objectionable to tourists as the tax suggested in the Hawaii News Now article, and furthermore, Hawaii Get as is is lower than most states so that it wouldn't be an issue at all.


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## pedro47 (Nov 2, 2019)

I am very sorry Tamaradarann, I should had said this a direct quote from the Hawaii New Now and I disliked the last sentence in their statement.


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## turkel (Nov 2, 2019)

Unfortunately money doesn’t help homelessness. Seattle spends 100k per homeless in their city and no improvement has been seen. San Francisco spends crazy money and again only attracts more homeless.

I don’t know what the answer is but throwing money at the problem doesn’t work. Maybe rehab and Mental health services, community policing and prosecuting all crimes would be a start.


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## pedro47 (Nov 3, 2019)

Turkel, I was surprise by the homeless population in downtown Seattle. Seattle is a very nice city, it is a very high cost of living area, with some excellent jobs and universities in the city.
Downtown parking was very costly. IMO.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 3, 2019)

turkel said:


> Unfortunately money doesn’t help homelessness. Seattle spends 100k per homeless in their city and no improvement has been seen. San Francisco spends crazy money and again only attracts more homeless.
> 
> I don’t know what the answer is but throwing money at the problem doesn’t work. Maybe rehab and Mental health services, community policing and prosecuting all crimes would be a start.



We sat next to the director of health services for the homeless in Honolulu on the way to Honolulu on the plane a few years ago, mental health services as well as physical health services are provided to the homeless.  The prisons in Hawaii are overloaded so they need to ship some of their prisoners to other states.  I don't think they want to fill up their prisons with homeless people who's crime is sleeping on the street.

While other cities have homeless population, Honolulu has some special aspects that lead to and encourage homelessness.  The cost of living is very high which makes getting an apartment prohibitive on small incomes.  The weather is so mild all year long that even in the winter the lows outside are in the 60's.  While the homeless are in other areas the homeless in Waikiki are living in areas which most people in the world would and do pay huge amounts of money to travel and stay in for vacations of a lifetime.  Furthermore, being in the tourist area of Waikiki is a great opportunity for panhandling.  

We know and have known a number of homeless people in Honolulu over the years.  Some have gotten on their feet and have jobs now and are no longer homeless.  Others are still in the same situation.  Honolulu has implemented many different initiatives, including building shelters and hopefully some of the initiatives will improve the situation.  Some homeless reject the shelters.  We have heard that some issues in shelters make them undesirably for homeless to make them their home so they remain homeless. 

Safety, a home must be a safe haven.

Alcohol is prohibited.  Alcohol is legal, but not in a homeless shelter.

Shelters make the homeless leave early each day; 7:00 AM.  Why?  Do they expect them to get out and look for jobs.  Well there are not a lot of job interviews at 7:00 AM in the morning!  The important thing is that the homeless are off the street.  It is important that they try to improve their situation not some false time to get out and try.

Particularly in Honolulu where living outside is soooo nice, making the shelters as accommodating as possible is essential.


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## turkel (Nov 3, 2019)

I wasn’t implying homelessness is a crime in and of itself. In SFO the homeless burglarize cars to the extent that victim shaming is the norm.

I had a gal tell me it was her own fault her window was mashed because she left an empty grocery bag in her car. Well personally I prefer to live among people who don’t attempt to steal from each other.

Community policing and prosecuting crimes when committed is far more important to a community than allowing the homeless free range to shoot up and poop where they please. 

Alcohol should be prohibited. To allow it would be utter insanity. No one should give $ to a panhandler. All it teaches them to do is beg how does that improve their lives?

I have a relative that is an addict his parents have spent more money trying to help him than they have sending their other child to private college. He is still an addict and is in jail he has been homeless. His dad is done, not one penny more. Will this help him? I doubt it, but throwing money at the problem hasn’t worked. Enabling is not the answer.

The weathers great people hand me money why work when I can ......


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## klpca (Nov 3, 2019)

True story - the partner (CPA firm) who hired me for my first job at some point was diagnosed as bi-polar. It worsened as he got older and after the firm merged with another he left (pushed out), sold Herbal Life for awhile, and eventually stopped taking his meds and became homeless. It was one of the saddest things that I have ever seen. When I worked with him he was completely fine. I'm not sure if he was just taking his meds or if his disease hadn't manifested at that point, but when you see a former co-worker who had the world on a string, shuffling around downtown looking like, well, a homeless person it is just heartbreaking. Another former partner who was very difficult to work with, would actually find this guy on the street, get him cleaned up and bring him back to his office and have him work part time. It never lasted long but I always admired him truly reaching out and trying to help this guy get back on his feet.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 3, 2019)

turkel said:


> I wasn’t implying homelessness is a crime in and of itself. In SFO the homeless burglarize cars to the extent that victim shaming is the norm.
> 
> I had a gal tell me it was her own fault her window was mashed because she left an empty grocery bag in her car. Well personally I prefer to live among people who don’t attempt to steal from each other.
> 
> ...



I read your post and agree with most of it.  I need to comment one issue.  I did not make the comment about having alcohol in the homeless shelters with the mind that the panhandlers would use money they received in panhandling to buy alcohol; although granted that is possible.  However,  many of the homeless in Hawaii are not penniless.  They have small pensions or social security.  Having a pension or social security in Hawaii may not enough to afford an apartment.  If homeless people have some money and want to use it to buy alcohol instead of cigarettes or more food/ clothing and bring it back to the homeless shelter to live as a "normal" human being they can't.  Therefore, they stay homeless.  That is not really helping the homeless problem.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 3, 2019)

klpca said:


> True story - the partner (CPA firm) who hired me for my first job at some point was diagnosed as bi-polar. It worsened as he got older and after the firm merged with another he left (pushed out), sold Herbal Life for awhile, and eventually stopped taking his meds and became homeless. It was one of the saddest things that I have ever seen. When I worked with him he was completely fine. I'm not sure if he was just taking his meds or if his disease hadn't manifested at that point, but when you see a former co-worker who had the world on a string, shuffling around downtown looking like, well, a homeless person it is just heartbreaking. Another former partner who was very difficult to work with, would actually find this guy on the street, get him cleaned up and bring him back to his office and have him work part time. It never lasted long but I always admired him truly reaching out and trying to help this guy get back on his feet.



I am not an expert on the homeless problem but I have to agree with you that mental health issues are one of the problems.  My points about allowing alcohol in the homeless shelters and not making the homeless leave at 7:00 AM each day is that is what I heard as concerns over moving into shelters from homeless people.  Since we are not homeless what we think doesn't matter.  We can't help the homeless find homes or move into shelters unless we listen to THEIR problems and THEIR concerns about moving to a homeless shelter instead of being homeless.  Another concern that I heard was safety in the shelters.  That is another issue that must be addressed.  I heard this from a few homeless people but also from an advocate for gay youth who brought up the issue of safety in a homeless shelters.  Society can't just build the shelters and expect the people to come.  Most homeless are not looking just for a place to sleep; they have that.  They are looking for a safe comfortable home.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2019)

As far as reciting a "Keep Hawaii Hawaii " pledge goes it would likely be like other Islands that have already been through this. Big Island has the "Pono Pledge" since 2018.

Pono Pledge

_The Pono Pledge reads as follows:

I pledge to be pono (righteous) on the island of Hawai‘i.
I will mindfully seek wonder, but not wander where I do not belong.
I will not defy death for breathtaking photos, or venture beyond safety.
I will malama (care for) land and sea, and admire wildlife only from afar.
Molten lava will mesmerize me, but I will not disrupt its flow.
I will not take what is not mine, leaving lava rocks and sand as originally found.
I will heed ocean conditions, never turning my back to the Pacific.
When rain falls ma uka (inland), I will remain high above ground, out of rivers and streams.
I will embrace the island’s aloha spirit, as it embraces me.

Lawe i ka maalea i kuonoono
“Take wisdom and make it deep.”_

https://www.ponopledge.com/

Kuaia has the Aloha Pledge.
_
I will take time to learn about the Hawaiian culture and people. 

I will remember I am a guest here and that others are not on vacation.

I will stay in legal and licensed visitor accommodations.

I will give fish and other wildlife space. I know feeding sea life can damage their health and disrupt behavior. 

I will stay off the reef. I understand even brushing coral can kill a whole coral colony. 

I will give space to fishermen so I do not scare the catch away. 

I will only use “reef safe” sunscreens and bug repellent products free of oxybenzone and parabens to avoid ocean and stream contamination.

I will look for welcoming signage to let me know if an area is public. If none is visible I will not intrude.

I will buy flowers and produce from the store or a farmers market and never pick from someone’s yard.  

I will clean and decontaminate all footwear and hiking gear with 70% alcohol or 10% bleach solution to prevent both Rapid Ohiʻa Death and other invasive species from spreading. 

I will protect special places by never geotagging when using social media. 

I will pick up my trash and any I may pass by.  

I will always give aloha, kindness and respect before taking this special experience with me. _


https://alohapledge.com/

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...way-reopen-with-new-rules-visitors-residents/

As far as I can tell no one is required to pledge anything. As far as I can tell they will get the money from the tourists and rightfully so, imo.

Bill


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## Kapolei (Nov 4, 2019)

Be friendly, act respectfully towards each other, be kind ... that is all that is required.


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## talkamotta (Nov 7, 2019)

When we go to different places it disgusts me to see the signs of lazy  people.  Such as leaving trash or cigarette butts, etc or not picking up their dogs poop. If I see trash on the beach I will pick it up. We are visiting another's home and should act accordingly. Especially in Hawaii where they are on an island.  When I see cars abandoned I can only think it must be hard to get rid of things, that's a local concern I'm sure.


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## easyrider (Nov 8, 2019)

This week has been mostly Hana Hwy expeditions in our rental car. There are many burnt out cars on the Hwy. They look like rental cars stolen, scraped and burnt. My bet is this is not a tourist thing.

I like to shore fish and went to a few fishing holes. There was alot of garbage near the side of the road where the fishers park. My bet is this is not a tourist thing.

I also spent time on the beaches where tourist hang out. These areas were very clean. My bet is this is a tourist thing.

Bill


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## controller1 (Nov 8, 2019)

talkamotta said:


> When we go to different places it disgusts me to see the signs of lazy  people.  Such as leaving trash or cigarette butts, etc or not picking up their dogs poop. If I see trash on the beach I will pick it up. We are visiting another's home and should act accordingly. Especially in Hawaii where they are on an island.  When I see cars abandoned I can only think it must be hard to get rid of things, that's a local concern I'm sure.



If you are seeing dog poop in Hawaii, in all likelihood that is not a visitor's dog but a resident's dog.  Due to the strict quarantine laws of Hawaii very few visitors travel with their dog.


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## talkamotta (Nov 8, 2019)

controller1 said:


> If you are seeing dog poop in Hawaii, in all likelihood that is not a visitor's dog but a resident's dog.  Due to the strict quarantine laws of Hawaii very few visitors travel with their dog.


 
You are correct about animals.  I was talking about all the places we visit.


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## Kapolei (Nov 10, 2019)

talkamotta said:


> When we go to different places it disgusts me to see the signs of lazy  people.  Such as leaving trash or cigarette butts, etc or not picking up their dogs poop. If I see trash on the beach I will pick it up. We are visiting another's home and should act accordingly. Especially in Hawaii where they are on an island.  When I see cars abandoned I can only think it must be hard to get rid of things, that's a local concern I'm sure.




Here is an activity for visitors to Oahu that want to make a small difference https://808cleanups.org/calendar/


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