# This was the first time  this offer was made.



## raygo123 (Nov 7, 2015)

I was offered permanent gold.  If I buy 84,000 points.  A one bdrm  presidential.  $15,000 that's dumb!

Wife and I went to the members, tea and crumpets, the next evening, 4 - 5 pm.  There were about 8 others,  sure- nuff, (Pittsburgh-neze) tea 4different kinds. Crumpets, biscuits, hockey pucks, depending on where you live.  Held in the building next to golf course.  That building also has a nice fire pit facing the golf course limited accommodations..
The area if large just limited seating, cosy.

At the party,  We asked to see a 1bedroom .  afterwards we talked, talked, with, him.  I asked what do you think Wyndham will acquire, manage next.  I also mentioned the starwood deal.  He didn't answer, but asked my opinion of blue green?

I answered, is that in reference to convert PIC points to Wyndham points, and counting towards VIP?

Yes, he said.  So what about blue green?



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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 8, 2015)

*Cryptic and yet in plain view*



raygo123 said:


> I was offered permanent gold.  If I buy 84,000 points.  A one bdrm  presidential.  $15,000 that's dumb!
> 
> Wife and I went to the members, tea and crumpets, the next evening, 4 - 5 pm.  There were about 8 others,  sure- nuff, (Pittsburgh-neze) tea 4different kinds. Crumpets, biscuits, hockey pucks, depending on where you live.  Held in the building next to golf course.  That building also has a nice fire pit facing the golf course limited accommodations..
> The area if large just limited seating, cosy.
> ...



Thanks Raygo123
This post has a Hemingway-esque brevity
 and a lot to read into ...

80 - 20 is coming sooner than later
with the big 3 .


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## raygo123 (Nov 8, 2015)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Thanks Raygo123
> This post has a Hemingway-esque brevity
> and a lot to read into ...
> 
> ...


I didn't want to give an opinion.  There was much more.  I think thier targeting blue green.  Also talked about a waiting list.  Devastating to 60 day window!

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## ronparise (Nov 8, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> I was offered permanent gold.  If I buy 84,000 points.  A one bdrm  presidential.  $15,000 that's dumb!
> 
> Wife and I went to the members, tea and crumpets, the next evening, 4 - 5 pm.  There were about 8 others,  sure- nuff, (Pittsburgh-neze) tea 4different kinds. Crumpets, biscuits, hockey pucks, depending on where you live.  Held in the building next to golf course.  That building also has a nice fire pit facing the golf course limited accommodations..
> The area if large just limited seating, cosy.
> ...



I thought you were already Gold

and Blue Green is a great system, but even if Wyndham was to take it over it wouldnt mean much to us Club Wydham owners. It would be just one more brand in the system. and except for a little cross brand exchanging they are all  separate and distinct systems

Wyndham Vacation Ownership develops, markets and sells vacation ownership interests and provides consumer financing to owners through its seven primary consumer brands, CLUB WYNDHAM®, WorldMark by Wyndham, CLUB WYNDHAM ASIA®, WorldMark South Pacific Club by Wyndham, Shell Vacations Club, Margaritaville Vacation Club® by Wyndham and WYNDHAM CLUB BRASIL SM.


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## bnoble (Nov 8, 2015)

> Also talked about a waiting list.


There's been talk about a waiting list for years now. It was supposed to be implemented as part of a much larger initiative called Voyager, with deployment expected in late '12 or early '13, but it was unceremoniously shelved in mid-'13. 

Word is that bits and pieces of it have been brought back into the inventory management. So, maybe someday.


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## comicbookman (Nov 8, 2015)

ronparise said:


> I thought you were already Gold
> 
> and Blue Green is a great system, but even if Wyndham was to take it over it wouldnt mean much to us Club Wydham owners. It would be just one more brand in the system. and except for a little cross brand exchanging they are all separate and distinct systems
> 
> Wyndham Vacation Ownership develops, markets and sells vacation ownership interests and provides consumer financing to owners through its seven primary consumer brands, CLUB WYNDHAM®, WorldMark by Wyndham, CLUB WYNDHAM ASIA®, WorldMark South Pacific Club by Wyndham, Shell Vacations Club, Margaritaville Vacation Club® by Wyndham and WYNDHAM CLUB BRASIL SM.



The only real exception was when Wyndham bought equivest and merged some of the properties, over a couple of years, into the Wyndham system.  Others they sold off.


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## Ty1on (Nov 8, 2015)

bnoble said:


> There's been talk about a waiting list for years now. It was supposed to be implemented as part of a much larger initiative called Voyager, with deployment expected in late '12 or early '13, but it was unceremoniously shelved in mid-'13.
> 
> Word is that bits and pieces of it have been brought back into the inventory management. So, maybe someday.



I've heard the resort management module of Voyager is in use at many Wyndham managed resorts.  They say the reservations system is not dead, just in limbo.  Whatever that means.


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## raygo123 (Nov 8, 2015)

Yes I am gold.  What was said is the PICs would not transfer to my children,to remain VI P gold, and THEY would end up being silver.  At this time I'm going to find out if true or another lie.  If I bought the 84000  reserve points then they would both be gold.

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## Ty1on (Nov 8, 2015)

I like your wife's answer.  If they want gold, let them buy gold.

My real suggestion, though:  Buy up to Platinum, adopt me, and will the membership to me.

Thanks Dad!


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## raygo123 (Nov 8, 2015)

I could buy platinum, and adopt all of the tug members, and grandfather into platinum at 10 points each!

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## Ty1on (Nov 8, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> I could buy platinum, and adopt all of the tug members, and grandfather into platinum at 10 points each!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I think we're on to something here.


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## bnoble (Nov 8, 2015)

> What was said is the PICs would not transfer to my children,to remain VI P gold, and THEY would end up being silver.


They'd be a lot better off if you invested the $15K and left them the proceeds.


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## raygo123 (Nov 8, 2015)

bnoble said:


> They'd be a lot better off if you invested the $15K and left them the proceeds.


They are taken care of quite nicely.  And thier parents had no college loans to pay off either.  Those were two goals accomplished before we even thought about buying direct   grandchildren did that no me lol

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## mistalong (Nov 9, 2015)

*I hope if Wyndham Gets better Saleman at Blue Green*

IF Wyndham buys Blue Green I hope their sales team is more respectful.  I called Choice Hotels once to get a hotel room where there wasn't a Wyndham property.  They transferred to a Blue Green salesman after the call (which I didn't request).  So after I told him no twice, right before he hangs up he goes, "You probably couldn't afford it anyway."



He hung up too fast for me to respond, but I swore they'd never get my business.


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## raygo123 (Nov 9, 2015)

I ruled them out back in the '90s.  There was something about blue green that just under my skin.  Then, places were a little in need of an upgrade.

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## OutSkiing (Nov 12, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> Yes I am gold.  What was said is the PICs would not transfer to my children,to remain VI P gold, and THEY would end up being silver.  At this time I'm going to find out if true or another lie.  If I bought the 84000  reserve points then they would both be gold.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



So what would happen to the PIC I wonder? 
Seems like your children would own the unit that was PICed as well as the wyndham points. 

I have a similar question to ponder in order to become Platinum level.  I am gold with points purchased direct from Wyndham (along with some resale points which do not count toward VIP).  I believe if I acquire a 3 bedroom week in another system that would PIC convert into 254,000 Wyndham points (1 bedroom=105,000 and 2 bedroom=154,000). Salesperson today told me I would need a minimum 49,000 annual point purchase to do the PIC conversion which would cost about $12,000.

I just don't know how permanent that would be. He claimed PICs are reviewed every 5 years to 'be sure you still own the property' but that sounds bogus. 

Was the 'permanence' language written up special for you?  Did that language exclude transferral to children?

Bob


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## raygo123 (Nov 12, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> So what would happen to the PIC I wonder?
> Seems like your children would own the unit that was PICed as well as the wyndham points.
> 
> I have a similar question to ponder in order to become Platinum level.  I am gold with points purchased direct from Wyndham (along with some resale points which do not count toward VIP).  I believe if I acquire a 3 bedroom week in another system that would PIC convert into 254,000 Wyndham points (1 bedroom=105,000 and 2 bedroom=154,000). Salesperson today told me I would need a minimum 49,000 annual point purchase to do the PIC conversion which would cost about $12,000.
> ...


It's not bogus, every 5 years, it also has to remain a week, or floating week, if it goes to points, you will loose PIC.  

My offer was for 84000 presidential reserve points.
That seemed like a weird offer, in that I have 490,000 Wyndham developer points, could not figure out why!

Now the hard question, will my children be gold with what I own now?  

I have no idea, but before I buy more I will find out. 

As far 49000 points for $12,000 that's ridiculous.
Should be 6 to $7,000.  Tops. 

No mention in contract about transfer to children
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## ronandjoan (Nov 12, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> So what would happen to the PIC I wonder?
> 
> 
> I just don't know how permanent that would be. He claimed PICs are reviewed every 5 years to 'be sure you still own the property' but that sounds bogus.
> ...



We got the same pitch:  your PICs will soon be no good, so you have to buy more points right now in order to be GOLD forever.

Well, the Silver and Gold points levels went up already - what's to guarantee they won't in the future?

Nothing -- yes, nothing about "permanent Gold" written in contract either.


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## raygo123 (Nov 12, 2015)

There is PIC, and PIC express.  The original PIC program is still in play.  At leased in 2013.  It's in my contract as an expense.

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## OutSkiing (Nov 12, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> As far 49000 points for $12,000 that's ridiculous.
> Should be 6 to $7,000.  Tops.



The $12,000 was not a quote - I just multiplied $250 x 49 to come up with that hypothetical figure. I recall Ron mentioned having to make a $12,000 purchase of a biennial property the day he traded something for platinum as well.  

If I use the rate you were recently quoted $15,000/84 =$178 per thousand points then the cost of that purchase for PIC conversion would be $178 x 49 = $8722.

The reason I said 'bogus' was wouldn't they know if the PIC property changed hands immediately?  Don't they 'take posession' or control of that property to exchange it off to RCI? I assume once it's PICed I would no longer be able to stay there true?  I know so little about this process.

Bob


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## raygo123 (Nov 12, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> The $12,000 was not a quote - I just multiplied $250 x 49 to come up with that hypothetical figure. I recall Ron mentioned having to make a $12,000 purchase of a biennial property the day he traded something for platinum as well.
> 
> If I use the rate you were recently quoted $15,000/84 =$178 per thousand points then the cost of that purchase for PIC conversion would be $178 x 49 = $8722.
> 
> Bob


Always, always!  That's why they are there.  I'm still trying to figure out how they come up with this stuff, now I have to figure out if I already have what he is selling me! 

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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> The $12,000 was not a quote - I just multiplied $250 x 49 to come up with that hypothetical figure. I recall Ron mentioned having to make a $12,000 purchase of a biennial property the day he traded something for platinum as well.
> 
> If I use the rate you were recently quoted $15,000/84 =$178 per thousand points then the cost of that purchase for PIC conversion would be $178 x 49 = $8722.
> 
> ...



I think the number is 50000 points per pic week with a maximum of two weeks per account. 

I didnt do a pic, I converted Pahio weeks to points and yes I spent $12000 for a 126k eoy contract and the loophole I took advantage of has closed

By the way, weeks that you might PIC wont ever just change to points and be kicked out of the program.  Even if the resort begins offering RCI points your week wont be part of the RCI points program unless you pay for the change. What could get your week tossed out of the program is if your resort dropped out of RCI altogether

What I dont get is why anyone would spend any money get to Silver VIP or if they are already VIP to move to the next level. Unless they want to to make a business out of it and rent 10s of millions points.  I cant make the numbers work for just a couple of million. and I certainly cant make them work for personal use.   If you want a few more vacations, just buy more points on the secondary market, 


and I as far as the kids go, Raygo's wife has it right.. "If they want it they can buy it for themselves".


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## raygo123 (Nov 13, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> The $12,000 was not a quote - I just multiplied $250 x 49 to come up with that hypothetical figure. I recall Ron mentioned having to make a $12,000 purchase of a biennial property the day he traded something for platinum as well.
> 
> If I use the rate you were recently quoted $15,000/84 =$178 per thousand points then the cost of that purchase for PIC conversion would be $178 x 49 = $8722.
> 
> ...


The points I have bought in the past, 3/4 were bought at $130/1000.  That's why I said that was ridiculous.  You used the rack rate, retail, in your example.  The sales closer said,  but it presidential reserve!  I threw back to him that it should be around $10,000.  He challenged what I paid untill he did the math on my account.  I'm now wondering if at $130, did I pay too much.

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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> The points I have bought in the past, 3/4 were bought at $130/1000.  That's why I said that was ridiculous.  You used the rack rate, retail, in your example.  The sales closer said,  but it presidential reserve!  I threw back to him that it should be around $10,000.  He challenged what I paid untill he did the math on my account.  I'm now wondering if at $130, did I pay too much.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



If you bought from the developer you paid more than you had to.


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## raygo123 (Nov 13, 2015)

That seems to be the theme here on tug, no?

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## raygo123 (Nov 13, 2015)

ronparise said:


> If you bought from the developer you paid more than you had to.


So, I guess that said, you haven't bought direct, or another here on tug for more than a few years never bought direct from the developer?

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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> So, I guess that said, you haven't bought direct, or another here on tug for more than a few years never bought direct from the developer?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I made two purchases from Wyndham directly both were 126k eoy contracts at Royal Gardens at Waikiki at about $12000 each ($6000 cash and $150 a month for the rest of my life)  so a total of 12k out of pocket. 

I think I am an exception to the rule (the rule being, a developer purchase doesnt make sense) 

With these two purchases I took one account from nothing to Platinum VIP, and the other from Silver to platinum VIP.. Each of the two accounts had about 10 million points in them that I rent.  With the discounts and upgrades and the increased number of guest confirms I think I probably paid myself back in a year. And consider that the $12000 was just a fraction of my rental profits from the year before (So I was playing with "extra" money) I have been using my profits to grow my operation from the beginning. and this was just another step. 

Most owners dont rent like I do and among those that do, most dont do the volume that I do, and the loophole I took advantage of doesnt exist anymore, so you cant do it as cheap as I did... all this comes together to offer the advice that I do,, and that is Dont buy direct. 

Besides that I dont like the competition

By the way that first Silver account that I mentioned came to me by surprise. I bought 385000 points on ebay (3 converted fixed weeks at Fairfield Harbor) and I became VIP. I expected it to be reversed, but it wasnt..  Most of the other Platinum VIPs here that make any money renting do so with accounts they got like I did, or they inherited an account. Folks that bought their way to platinum are struggling to make their mf.  they consider the purchase to have been sunk money. that they may or may not make a return on


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## Bigrob (Nov 13, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Folks that bought their way to platinum are struggling to make their mf.  they consider the purchase to have been sunk money. that they may or may not make a return on



And/or they bought lots of developer points when the rules were different (cancellations up to the day before check-in; free guest confirmations; multiple upgrades when available; ability to transfer points between owners, etc.) and have spent most of the last half decade suing Wyndham over it.


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## raygo123 (Nov 13, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> And/or they bought lots of developer points when the rules were different (cancellations up to the day before check-in; free guest confirmations; multiple upgrades when available; ability to transfer points between owners, etc.) and have spent most of the last half decade suing Wyndham over it.


Suing?  I take it those were defendable.  Related to what you lost in benifits, most answers to the should I Sue question on tug is that it is a waste of time and money.

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## Bigrob (Nov 13, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> Suing?  I take it those were defendable.  Related to what you lost in benifits, most answers to the should I Sue question on tug is that it is a waste of time and money.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I didn't say it was "fruitful". Just that it was an activity for certain Wyndham Owners who bought a large block of developer points under different rules.


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## raygo123 (Nov 13, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I didn't say it was "fruitful". Just that it was an activity for certain Wyndham Owners who bought a large block of developer points under different rules.


So you were caught in what Wyndham would call the evolution of the timeshare industry.  And what, those caught in it call, getting rear ended.  



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## OutSkiing (Nov 14, 2015)

ronparise said:


> What I dont get is why anyone would spend any money get to Silver VIP or if they are already VIP to move to the next level. Unless they want to to make a business out of it and rent 10s of millions points.  I cant make the numbers work for just a couple of million. and I certainly cant make them work for personal use.   If you want a few more vacations, just buy more points on the secondary market.



I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.

Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).

If you assume 100% of stays are able to discount, then paying maintenence on 1 million  points with platinum VIP gets you 2 million travel points.  At the gold discount rate of 35% I would need 1.3 million points to get those same 2 million travel points.

So the extra 300,000 points would cost about 300 x $5 = $1500 per year in maintenance fees. Assuming 20 years of travel use and an 8% rate of return the present value of $1500 savings per year at 8% is about $14,000.  

If only half of travel stays are discountable then I think doing the same math results in a $9800 value for going platinum.

There is also the benefit of maybe getting more upgrades (at 60 days rather than 45) and of waiting until year end to dump unused points into maintenance fees. Also of having a company such as WynVIP  rent the points out for me if I can't travel a while.

I've got a picture of the  'Express PIC' form they use to figure out how many points to give for PICed timeshares I might post here if anyone is interested. It shows the 105k, 154k and 254k points for 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units.  I'm just not sure what resort would be the best 3 bedroom unit to use for PIC.

Bob


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## raygo123 (Nov 15, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.
> 
> Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter which one you PIC.  They are just there, you don't have to turn them over to Wyndham every year, or not at all.  If you plan on PICing, turning it over for the Wyndham points, then it would be the one you never use, or the lowest MFs.

You do know that PIC express is for 5yrs?



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## ronparise (Nov 15, 2015)

OutSkiing said:


> I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.
> 
> Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).
> 
> ...



Ill accept all your assumptions  but there are two things.. I dont accept a 20 year payback... thats way too long for me 

Lets assume I have $15000 to spend and instead of buying additional points from Wyndham, I'll invest that money at 8% for a $1200 annual return, Ill put that money toward my increased mf... so now my annual increased cost is just  $300 a year (in 20 years $6000)

at the end of 20 years you will have your million points worth roughly zero, and I will have my 1.3 million at the same value.  The difference is I will still have my $15000 that I invested 20 years earlier (less the $6000 increase mf I paid)

Do it another way and pay the $1500 additional mf every year and let the $15000 compound at 8% and Ill have nearly $70000 (less the $30000 mf spent over the 20 years) and Im ahead 40k


The real issue with our calculations Is that if you go from Gold to Platinum you started at Gold, and have at least 500000 points you bought from Wyndham. That represents a heck of an investment that you will never "earn" back with a Platinum account. That and to PIC 2 weeks Wyndham will make you buy 105000 points at closer to $20000

To answer your question about PICable weeks, I own two 3 bedroom red weeks  That I bought to PIC, (254000 points each) and mf is under $500 each> PM me if you want to know the resort


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## ronparise (Nov 15, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> It doesn't matter which one you PIC.  They are just there, you don't have to turn them over to Wyndham every year, or not at all.  If you plan on PICing, turning it over for the Wyndham points, then it would be the one you never use, or the lowest MFs.
> 
> You do know that PIC express is for 5yrs?
> 
> ...



The maintenance fees make the difference. If you can find two  weeks like I did with mf under $500 your dollars to points ratio is really good, and might make the whole deal worthwhile even considering the annual pic fee

$600/254 = $2.40/1000   assume your platinum discount and a week at Bonnet Creek in a 2 bedroom will cost you about $300

The week you choose to PIC matters,


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## OutSkiing (Nov 15, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Ill accept all your assumptions  but there are two things.. I dont accept a 20 year payback... thats way too long for me
> 
> ...
> 
> The real issue with our calculations Is that if you go from Gold to Platinum you started at Gold, and have at least 500000 points you bought from Wyndham. That represents a heck of an investment that you will never "earn" back with a Platinum account. That and to PIC 2 weeks Wyndham will make you buy 105000 points at closer to $20000



Due to the magic of the time value of money, if I re-do the math using 10 years instead of 20 at 8%  the 'break even' number comes out to $10000 instead of $14000.  When making financial decisions we're supposed to look forward, not backward. Agree my prior Wyndham investments have not been financially sound but that is where I am at - water over the dam put toward entertainment and family time, not supposed to be an investment.  My wife is also enamored with the possability of platinum which is why I continue to weigh the tradeoff of using PIC to get there.

Bob


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## raygo123 (Nov 15, 2015)

ronparise said:


> The maintenance fees make the difference. If you can find two  weeks like I did with mf under $500 your dollars to points ratio is really good, and might make the whole deal worthwhile even considering the annual pic fee
> 
> $600/254 = $2.40/1000   assume your platinum discount and a week at Bonnet Creek in a 2 bedroom will cost you about $300
> 
> The week you choose to PIC matters,


I see your point, unfortunately I did not have a choice.  I only had two one bdrm units to PIC.  Fortunately, they were a buy one get one and an rtu in Mexico.  They do not have a yearly MF.  I also don't see them going to points or leaving RCI.  

In your sinerio, are you also using the 60 day window? To double book and cancel, or would that just even lower the cost?

As far as the offer, from the original post,  the closer was lieing.  As long as my PIC remains eligible for PIC, it passes to my children as gold, as long as the points are not split up.  



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