# Is Owning a Marriott Timeshare Week Still Popular?



## RussellSun (Nov 21, 2017)

Just doing a survey. Is owning a Marriott timeshare week still popular? Are Marriott weeks still in demand by timeshare owners? Even though maintenance fees are going up, are owners still okay with owning Marriott weeks? We just bought a 2 bedroom lockoff for a very low upfront fee and we feel it is a good deal compared to the cost of renting a small hotel room for a week in the same location. Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for almost free elsewhere. If you buy where you want to use, like Hawaii, it seems like an excellent deal because one week in a 2 bedroom rents for $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.


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## VacationForever (Nov 21, 2017)

Absolutely. There are still a ton of Marriott deposits in II and you get Marriott preference.  The only issue is that using a studio to trade takes a little more work, as the trading power given to studios is very low.

I used a studio side to obtain a 2BR Ko Olina in Dec 2015 6 months before, so it was not in Flexchange window, a month ago traded for Newport Coast (all 2BR there) for Sep 2018. I was also matched to 1BR Ko Olina during Thanksgiving week 2017 at 13 months. Using a studio to trade certainly causes a little more anxiety, but great trades can still be had.

Using the 1Br is certainly alot easier.  We used 2 1BR and traded for 2 weeks of 3BR at KoOlina in March 2017 at about 8 months out.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 21, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for free elsewhere.





VacationForever said:


> The only issue is that using a studio to trade takes a little more work, as the trading power given to studios is very low.



It is also not free. It is a minimum of $219($80+$139) but usually more if upsizing outside of flex.


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## mjm1 (Nov 21, 2017)

I agree with VacationForever. We own week and points and are happy with both. We have locked off our DSV unit and traded both the 1BR and Studio with very good results. The trades have been for units in shoulder seasons for the most part, but that was what we were looking for.

Best regards.

Mike


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 21, 2017)

The difference today versus 20 years ago is it actually made sense in some situations to buy from Marriott. The fees were low and the benefits were high that it could justify the large upfront cost. Today it only makes sense to buy resale for next to nothing. With little to no upfront costs and compared to alternatives it still works out financially for many situations.


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 21, 2017)

Absolutely. It's also very popular to rent. I know everyone doesn't agree but Marriott is arguably the best program out there. Disney might be better is some ways but that has a limited resort system. 

It just has a certain level of very good quality that you can count on and generally is located in the best spot in any given tourist area. Somewhat pricey entry point and costs keep going up but still a good value in my book and you generally won't lose money on a resale.


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## jme (Nov 21, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Just doing a survey. Is owning a Marriott timeshare week still popular? Are Marriott weeks still in demand by timeshare owners? Even though maintenance fees are going up, are owners still okay with owning Marriott weeks? We just bought a 2 bedroom lockoff for a very low upfront fee and we feel it is a good deal compared to the cost of renting a small hotel room for a week in the same location. Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for almost free elsewhere. If you buy where you want to use, like Hawaii, it seems like an excellent deal because one week in a 2 bedroom rents for $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.



Of Course!!!!!

If you think maintenance fees are high, try renting Hilton Head Marriott's Grande Ocean in June or July----it's $2300-3200+ per week, and mf is only $1400+. It's not Hawaii, but we never wish to be committed to flying to Hawaii from our home near the east coast....way way way too expensive every year, especially for a family. A 2.5 hr drive to HH is just fine----our home away from home---- and frankly, we stay there cheaply now, given everything. MF for a week is a real bargain.

We've owned since late 90s, and it only gets better. We own 6 weeks at Grande Ocean (exclusively use for consec week stays in June/July), and use each one, but if we only rented them out, we'd have a nice positive cash flow. We also own 4 more Marriotts, and enjoy it all---- occupying, trading, swapping for points.

Kids still love it too, and they still visit even tho they're on their own at 28 and 31. We've done lots of trades, too---used them to see all of this country, Caribbean and elsewhere, and Europe too....one is a lock-off and we definitely maximize our options. Most are enrolled, so we also benefit from longer stays in different seasons when we trade for destination points. We almost have too many weeks to utilize, but we force ourselves....lol.

We wouldn't change a thing!!! I would NEVER buy points, but I would, and have recently, bought more resale weeks, so it's still a great way to go.  We use most weeks, trade for others. Use a couple of enrolled weeks differently, and will alter our travels as needed by using hotels and boutique hotels worldwide as we go forward, maybe even some Explorer Collection options. So many more alternatives now!


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## DeniseM (Nov 21, 2017)

> $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view



You might get that much for Ocean Front in the Napili or Lahaina Towers for Christmas week, but not for most other resorts/dates/views.  For ocean _front_ at the Maui Ocean Club, you are looking at around $4,000-$4,500 for a popular date - less for ocean view.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 21, 2017)

Absolutely the best deal out there ! Buy for cheap (most weeks) and can trade for better weeks. I've found it to be a great value and wouldn't change a thing either (except maybe lower MF which have been going up and up like everything else)


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## littlestar (Nov 21, 2017)

We still like weeks. We fly and I want a week minimum. Bought a resale Grande Vista platinum week and my reasoning is if trading through Interval goes away tomorrow, I will just book Grande Vista my home.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 21, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.





DeniseM said:


> You might get that much for Ocean Front in the Napili or Lahaina Towers for Christmas week, but not for most other resorts/dates/views.  For ocean _front_ at the Maui Ocean Club, you are looking at around $4,000-$4,500 for a popular date - less for ocean view.



It depends on what you mean by "rentals." If you're talking person-to-person rentals, then what Denise says is probably right, but for rentals on traditional reservation booking sites like Marriott.com, I think the OP is right. Even OF 1BR in the old towers are $800+ per night with taxes and resort fees in high season. A 2BR OV unit would be at least $900+/night, I believe. Many people aren't willing to take the risk of a P2P transaction for a $4000+ vacation, so for those us us who feel that way, the appropriate yardstick is traditional online booking engines instead of the P2P sites.


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## bazzap (Nov 22, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> It is also not free. It is a minimum of $219($80+$139) but usually more if upsizing outside of flex.


Or potentially quite a bit less, if you have a DC Points corporate Interval account and especially if you have a Platinum Interval membership.
We pay $49 or $59, I can’t immediately recall which.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 22, 2017)

Agreed but the OP just bought resale on the cheap so DC is not an option. 

Don’t you pay zero in my example unless you are upsizing?


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## bazzap (Nov 22, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Agreed but the OP just bought resale on the cheap so DC is not an option.
> 
> Don’t you pay zero in my example unless you are upsizing?


True, if DC is not an option then you are facing some significant fees.
If you are in DC and do not need upsizing, there is no additional cost within MVC resorts.


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## bogey21 (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm an ex Marriott owner.  IMO Resorts are great.  Whether it is worthwhile owning depends on how much your paid; the direction of the MFs; how you plan to use your Week or Points; and your exit strategy.   The answer to the foregoing is probably different from person to person depending on where you are in your life experience.

George


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 22, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> I'm an ex Marriott owner.  IMO Resorts are great.  Whether it is worthwhile owning depends on how much your paid; the direction of the MFs; how you plan to use your Week or Points; and your exit strategy.   The answer to the foregoing is probably different from person to person depending on where you are in your life experience.
> 
> George



I think you are quite correct on all points. For myself personally, I didn't pay that much for my resale trader weeks. With buying/selling of weeks (flipping) I've had over past few years, I think I made some money, that eventually went into buying my Hawaii weeks. The rent I get from those Hawaii weeks basically pays for all of my maintenance, exchange, and advertising on Redweek fees so essentially I travel for free.

The maintenance fees have been climbing, like everything else, but overall I find it still worthwhile to own based upon what I get in return in terms of the quality of the Marriott properties. In terms of exit strategy, all the units I own shouldn't be that hard to get rid of, as they are all platinum and in relatively high demand at the present. As I'm not into the traders for any money, I could afford to get rid of them for free if necessary. The Hawaii weeks are in high demand so I think there will always be a market for them and I should be able to get my money out of them as they're currently selling for more than what I paid for them.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 22, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> I think you are quite correct on all points. For myself personally, I didn't pay that much for my resale trader weeks. With buying/selling of weeks (flipping) I've had over past few years, I think I made some money, that eventually went into buying my Hawaii weeks. The rent I get from those Hawaii weeks basically pays for all of my maintenance, exchange, and advertising on Redweek fees so essentially I travel for free.
> 
> The maintenance fees have been climbing, like everything else, but overall I find it still worthwhile to own based upon what I get in return in terms of the quality of the Marriott properties. In terms of exit strategy, all the units I own shouldn't be that hard to get rid of, as they are all platinum and in relatively high demand at the present. As I'm not into the traders for any money, I could afford to get rid of them for free if necessary. The Hawaii weeks are in high demand so I think there will always be a market for them and I should be able to get my money out of them as they're currently selling for more than what I paid for them.


I agree for now, but I fear that the day will come soon when the maintenance fees will get so high that the demand will go away for the resorts (like Hawaii) where demand is still high.  This has already happened with other Marriott resorts.  Ten years ago a high season Sabal Palms week could be sold through Marriott Resales for a bit over $20,000 (I netted about $11,000 seven or so years ago) but now they are worth only something like 10% of that.  The skyrocketing maintenance fees are a big reason.


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## VacationForever (Nov 22, 2017)

My hotel point junkie husband really wanted to buy timeshares from the developers so that we could convert the interval to hotel points.  We first bought Westin Lagunamar and I talked him out of it and we rescinded but to satisfy him, I reluctantly agreed to buy 2 weeks at DSV I through Marriott resales so that we could get Marriott Reward Points every year. 

Fast forward, we retired last year and to reduce our financial obligation, we contacted Marriott resales to sell through them but were told that they could only put us on the waitlist.  However, in September of this year, Marriott offered to enroll our weeks, and instead of getting out, we got deeper into it and bought more from Marriott to get us up to Presidential level.  A month later, we were contacted by Marriott resales to sell our Marriott Desert Springs weeks.  Talk about timing.  If the weeks were not enrolled, we would have sold them and be done with Marriott. 

We enjoy our units very much but the trades that we have gotten with Marriott Desert Springs have been amazing.  Moving forward, we are not too sure how we will be using the Marriott vacation portfolio.  We are trying to figure out the balance between hotel points conversion, use of DC points and of course II exchanges.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 22, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> I agree for now, but I fear that the day will come soon when the maintenance fees will get so high that the demand will go away for the resorts (like Hawaii) where demand is still high.  This has already happened with other Marriott resorts.  Ten years ago a high season Sabal Palms week could be sold through Marriott Resales for a bit over $20,000 (I netted about $11,000 seven or so years ago) but now they are worth only something like 10% of that.  The skyrocketing maintenance fees are a big reason.



Always a possibility that they will get crazy. I look at some of the MF for the Westin Nanea at $3K and I think wow that's crazy. As long as it rents for more than my MF, I'm content to hold onto them if I don't use them myself. I'm not sure Hawaii will get to that point when demand drops off as its so different than the mainland. With how expensive accommodations are in Hawaii, I think it will sustain.

I think one factor in Sabal Palms is the rental price of the units vs the MF, in addition to the saturation of the area when the supply is higher than the demand with so many timeshares down there. While there are a lot of timeshares in Hawaii, I think the demand for certain ones are still strong. I'm not sure it is at the super saturation level of Florida though.


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## TXTortoise (Nov 22, 2017)

MR Points Conversion - I would think MR points conversions are very resort/MF specific.  The most anyone gets is what, 150K/yr?  I know I get 110K EOY with my Vail Streamside Birch and given how trading power has weakened for it, it's definitely an option with a MF of around $650, but anything higher it just doesn't seem to make sense, e.g., the 150K points is for a MOC Lahaina/Napili 3BR, with a $3000 MF.

With respect to Hawaii rents, I expressed the same concern to another long-time Hawaii renter on TUG of what happens at the next recession. He said he was concerned after 2008 also, but folks with money still seem to have enough to continue renting Hawaii.  That said, 5+% annual compounding will do a number on MFs, particularly for Hawaii.  But the impact is just relative to how fast the hotels and high-value VRBO rentals increase, I suppose.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 23, 2017)

TXTortoise said:


> MR Points Conversion - I would think MR points conversions are very resort/MF specific.  The most anyone gets is what, 150K/yr?  I know I get 110K EOY with my Vail Streamside Birch and given how trading power has weakened for it, it's definitely an option with a MF of around $650, but anything higher it just doesn't seem to make sense, e.g., the 150K points is for a MOC Lahaina/Napili 3BR, with a $3000 MF.
> 
> With respect to Hawaii rents, I expressed the same concern to another long-time Hawaii renter on TUG of what happens at the next recession. He said he was concerned after 2008 also, but folks with money still seem to have enough to continue renting Hawaii.  That said, 5+% annual compounding will do a number on MFs, particularly for Hawaii.  But the impact is just relative to how fast the hotels and high-value VRBO rentals increase, I suppose.



The question is, whether or not the MF for timeshares (any brand) will be competitive with hotel rentals (in a particular area). The underlying cost structures are comparable. In 2008-9, the hotel costs were significantly less, due to the recession, dropping the values (in some cases) to below $0. (The MF were more than what the cost of an equivalent hotel was.)

Marriott has been very aggressive with their MFs, particularly in Hawaii. OTOH, they are ocean front, which should go for more. Still, they are approaching pricing themselves out of comparable choices.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Marriott has been very aggressive with their MFs, particularly in Hawaii. OTOH, they are ocean front, which should go for more. Still, they are approaching pricing themselves out of comparable choices.


Maintenance fees have absolutely nothing to do with view or demand vs. hotels.  They are the OWNERS' cost of maintaining their property.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> I think one factor in Sabal Palms is the rental price of the units vs the MF, in addition to the saturation of the area when the supply is higher than the demand with so many timeshares down there.



Rental price vs.maintenance fees is exactly my point.  And for Sabal Palms it is not that the rental price has come down, but rather that you can now rent cheaper than owning in terms of your marginal costs.  That is because of the out of control maintenance fees.

A point of history:  We bought Sabal Palms pre-construction from Marriott in 1987 for $13,000, and it was a lucrative FINANCIAL, as well as lifestyle, investment for us.  (Yes, it was a good investment back then.)  Since then, maintenance fees have quadrupled, half of that in the past 10-12 years (mostly in and after the Great Recession!) and prices have dropped 90%, also in those same 10-12 years.  We fortunately sold after about a 50% drop.  Now I see the signs of that in Hawaii prices too.  MVCI recently dropped resale price of a Maui OF unit in the new Towers from $47,000 to less than $40,000.


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## RussellSun (Nov 23, 2017)

Hawaii hotels (one room) that are 4 star with any peak of an ocean view rent for about $400 per night plus tax. Anything bigger and better can range from $400 to $1000+ per night. We just rented a oceanfront studio condo on the north shore of Oahu which is one of the cheapest places to rent in all the islands of Hawaii and it was $3400 for the week. The view was very nice but the condo was not perfectly maintained inside. We’ve been renting 4 and 5 star hotel rooms for years before finding TUG and we have never spent less than $3400 to $5000 for one week in a hotel room in Hawaii with ocean view. So $2200 for a 2 bedroom lockoff ocean view Marriott in MFs seems like a good price. I know this is not a perfect comparison since most Tuggers will not rent from Marriott direct or on Expedia. However, the direct price for a 2 bedroom with ocean view is $8300 per week.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Hawaii hotels (one room) that are 4 star with any peak of an ocean view rent for about $400 per night plus tax. Anything bigger and better can range from $400 to $1000+ per night. We just rented a oceanfront studio condo on the north shore of Oahu which is one of the cheapest places to rent in all the islands of Hawaii and it was $3400 for the week. The view was very nice but the condo was not perfectly maintained inside. We’ve been renting 4 and 5 star hotel rooms for years before finding TUG and we have never spent less than $3400 to $5000 for one week in a hotel room in Hawaii with ocean view. So $2200 for a 2 bedroom lockoff ocean view Marriott in MFs seems like a good price. I know this is not a perfect comparison since most Tuggers will not rent from Marriott direct or on Expedia. However, the direct price for a 2 bedroom with ocean view is $8300 per week.


Deleted.


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## csodjd (Nov 23, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Hawaii hotels (one room) that are 4 star with any peak of an ocean view rent for about $400 per night plus tax. Anything bigger and better can range from $400 to $1000+ per night. We just rented a oceanfront studio condo on the north shore of Oahu which is one of the cheapest places to rent in all the islands of Hawaii and it was $3400 for the week. The view was very nice but the condo was not perfectly maintained inside. We’ve been renting 4 and 5 star hotel rooms for years before finding TUG and we have never spent less than $3400 to $5000 for one week in a hotel room in Hawaii with ocean view. So $2200 for a 2 bedroom lockoff ocean view Marriott in MFs seems like a good price. I know this is not a perfect comparison since most Tuggers will not rent from Marriott direct or on Expedia. However, the direct price for a 2 bedroom with ocean view is $8300 per week.


Exactly. I've stayed at the Grand Wailea and a decent studio room with a view is about $800-$900/night all-in. Now I have a week ocean front at the Marriott, for about $2400/7=$350/nt. And, if I can't go, I can rent it out for about $5000. And that's not even considering the $1000 or so in FOOD savings from breakfast and various other meals we can cook in the timeshare. That leaves a lot of room for MF increases and I'm still better off. But, at the end of the day, the market will act on MF and if they get too high, the market will drive them back.


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## VacationForever (Nov 23, 2017)

csodjd said:


> But, at the end of the day, the market will act on MF and if they get too high, the market will drive them back.



I am not clear as to what you meant by this statement.  MF will only go up because of inflation. Yes, there maybe an odd year or so where MF can be flat, possibly due to lower bad debts or fluctuations in building of reserves.  "Market" has nothing to do with what it takes to "maintain" a place.  Labor costs will only go up and so will products/refurbishments etc.


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## bogey21 (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> A point of history:  We bought Sabal Palms pre-construction from Marriott in 1987 for $13,000, and it was a lucrative FINANCIAL, as well as lifestyle, investment for us.  (Yes, it was a good investment back then.)  Since then, maintenance fees have quadrupled,...



We also bought Sabal Palms pre-constuction and loved the Resort.  After a number of years using and renting the Week I sold, at a profit, not because of MF increases but rather because Marriott devalued their Resale and Rental Programs and reduced the number of Marriott Reward Points I could get.  These changes made me wonder what was next?

George


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## csodjd (Nov 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I am not clear as to what you meant by this statement.  MF will only go up because of inflation. Yes, there maybe an odd year or so where MF can be flat, possibly due to lower bad debts or fluctuations in building of reserves.  "Market" has nothing to do with what it takes to "maintain" a place.  Labor costs will only go up and so will products/refurbishments etc.


It seems you're suggesting that there is no discretionary spending in the budget, and no room to save. But MF cost increases do not necessarily follow inflation. There are many expenditures where the "buyer" (management) has considerable control over both when the money is spent and how much is spent. If you are replacing an apple X with an apple X, then, yes, increased cost is attributed to inflation. But, if you're replacing apple X with apple Y, or with orange, then, no, inflation is not controlling and, indeed, if market forces are in play, you may choose to replace apple X with a less expensive orange to stay competitive.


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## topdog (Nov 23, 2017)

I'm keeping mine, at least for now.  I wish they had more locations.  It's nice to have a well maintained, well located place to go on vacation.  It's a prepaid vacation, not an investment.


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## VacationForever (Nov 23, 2017)

csodjd said:


> It seems you're suggesting that there is no discretionary spending in the budget, and no room to save. But MF cost increases do not necessarily follow inflation. There are many expenditures where the "buyer" (management) has considerable control over both when the money is spent and how much is spent. If you are replacing an apple X with an apple X, then, yes, increased cost is attributed to inflation. But, if you're replacing apple X with apple Y, or with orange, then, no, inflation is not controlling and, indeed, if market forces are in play, you may choose to replace apple X with a less expensive orange to stay competitive.


To keep up the quality of the resorts for any particular brand, HOA has to replace Apple X with Apple X.  No they cannot replace Apple X with Apple Y.  When one stays at Marriott, Hyatt or Vistana (Westin/Sheraton) brand of timeshare, he or she expects a certain standard of quality.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> To keep up the quality of the resorts for any particular brand, HOA has to replace Apple X with Apple X.  No they cannot replace Apple X with Apple Y.  When one stays at Marriott, Hyatt or Vistana (Westin/Sheraton) brand of timeshare, he or she expects a certain standard of quality.


You are drinking the Kool-Aid, I am afraid.


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## Panina (Nov 23, 2017)

I am not a Marriott owner in the present or in the past.  I have traded many times into Marriotts in Florida, Boston, Hilton Head and Myrtle Beach.

They are alway great, no complaints but as long as I can trade into them , when I desire to travel, I have no desire to own one because of the high maintenance fees. My maintenance, II fees and trade fees still are way less.  

If you had a highly desirable time period and a highly desirable area that you can't trade into, to me would  makes Marriott highly desirable.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> Maintenance fees have absolutely nothing to do with view or demand vs. hotels.  They are the OWNERS' cost of maintaining their property.





BocaBoy said:


> Rental price vs.maintenance fees is exactly my point.  And for Sabal Palms it is not that the rental price has come down, but rather that you can now rent cheaper than owning in terms of your marginal costs.  That is because of the out of control maintenance fees.
> 
> A point of history:  We bought Sabal Palms pre-construction from Marriott in 1987 for $13,000, and it was a lucrative FINANCIAL, as well as lifestyle, investment for us.  (Yes, it was a good investment back then.)  Since then, maintenance fees have quadrupled, half of that in the past 10-12 years (mostly in and after the Great Recession!) and prices have dropped 90%, also in those same 10-12 years.  We fortunately sold after about a 50% drop.  Now I see the signs of that in Hawaii prices too.  MVCI recently dropped resale price of a Maui OF unit in the new Towers from $47,000 to less than $40,000.



Absolutely. Maintenance fees have nothing to do with view or demand vs. hotels. They are based on costs, whereas hotel room rates must take into consideration market forces of supply and demand. But, the relationship between hotel rates and timeshare maintenance fees is still important in evaluating whether timeshare ownership is economically  preferable to rentals. During good economic times and in places with limited hotel supply, hotel rates may increase faster (because the market allows it), so timeshares may compare very favorably. During slower economic times, and/or in places with an excess of supply, hotel rates may not increase and may even decline, so the compare with timeshares may look less positive for timeshares since timeshare mf costs aren't impacted by supply/demand. So while I agree with your first statement, I still think comparing timeshare mf to hotel rates is an instructive exercise in evaluating whether a timeshare is a good deal or not.

I think the huge supply of hotel rooms and timeshares in Orlando is a huge factor that makes the hotel vs. timeshare compare a bit tougher in Orlando. But since it's so much harder zoning-wise to add new hotel and timeshare units in Hawaii, I would be surprised if Hawaii ever suffers the same fate as your Orlando example. Short of a long-lasting serious recession or depression, I tend to think the limited supply of new lodging units in Hawaii will limit, to some degree, the excess supply issue that impacts the Orlando market.


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## csodjd (Nov 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> To keep up the quality of the resorts for any particular brand, HOA has to replace Apple X with Apple X.  No they cannot replace Apple X with Apple Y.  When one stays at Marriott, Hyatt or Vistana (Westin/Sheraton) brand of timeshare, he or she expects a certain standard of quality.


I guess we'll have to disagree. I agree that a certain quality is expected. But, clearly, no timeshare can allow their costs to escalate them right out of the market. It is a competitive business. So long as it remains a competitive business, where consumers have choices and alternatives, market forces will regulate pricing, including MF.


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## Hi I'm new here (Nov 23, 2017)

Former owner of Ocean oriented Marriott platinum resort here, purchased when maintenance fees were $300 per year.  It was purchased from the developer.  
Since then fees have skyrocketed.  Weekly “ values” have fallen as fees rose, an inverse relationship. Yearly fees approach, equal or even exceed the cost to rent the same property from an owner.  Friends have rented for years HHI golf oceanfront Marriott for less than $1000 per week, in 2018 they are paying $850 a week.  We’ve rented Marriott Hawaii for around $2000 per week, which is less than the yearly fee.  
I see lots of Marriott inventory on third party sites at good prices, rental business is booming. I get almost daily alerts on new person to person rentals. 

Some owners base the “value” of their ownership on Marriott rack rates and they create all kind of spreadsheets to show their break even point.  I say they are using faulty rental rack rate data. Rack rates are meaningless when the same product is readily available much cheaper from another owner.

If someone really wants to buy a week wait until the next recession. Platinum weeks will be sold on eBay for 500 bucks.


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## csodjd (Nov 23, 2017)

Published rental weeks for a 2-bed ocean front in Napili/Lahaina at Maui during summer run about $4500-$6000, about double the MF. It's hard to generalize, because locations (and costs/value) vary widely.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

Hi I'm new here said:


> Some owners base the “value” of their ownership on Marriott rack rates and they create all kind of spreadsheets to show their break even point.  I say they are using faulty rental rack rate data. Rack rates are meaningless when the same product is readily available much cheaper from another owner.



As I've pointed out often in other threads, the rates on Marriott.com are only faulty/meaningless for those individuals like you who are willing to rent from other owners. For people like us who have never rented from an owner and probably never will, for-rent-by-owner rates are just as meaningless to us as Marriott.com rates are for you. For *any* person, it's important to use a comparison that is relevant to your own situation. To do otherwise would be a prime example of faulty reasoning.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> Rental price vs.maintenance fees is exactly my point.  And for Sabal Palms it is not that the rental price has come down, but rather that you can now rent cheaper than owning in terms of your marginal costs.  That is because of the out of control maintenance fees.
> 
> A point of history:  We bought Sabal Palms pre-construction from Marriott in 1987 for $13,000, and it was a lucrative FINANCIAL, as well as lifestyle, investment for us.  (Yes, it was a good investment back then.)  Since then, maintenance fees have quadrupled, half of that in the past 10-12 years (mostly in and after the Great Recession!) and prices have dropped 90%, also in those same 10-12 years.  We fortunately sold after about a 50% drop.  Now I see the signs of that in Hawaii prices too.  MVCI recently dropped resale price of a Maui OF unit in the new Towers from $47,000 to less than $40,000.



As everything else, MF will go up as everything costs more, but with so many cheap rentals in the whole region, that has a downward pressure on the rental price. And when you compare it to the MF, you're right, it doesn't make sense to own thus the drop in price as no one wants it. The prices do fluctuate in Hawaii but if the rentals stay high like $300-400 a night for 4* places, there will be a market for timeshares there. I can't see things getting cheaper there where the cost of electricity is atrocious. Everything has to be flow in to the island, increasing the costs for everything.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> The prices do fluctuate in Hawaii but if the rentals stay high like $300-400 a night for 4* places, there will be a market for timeshares there.



Actually, if the top ocean front hotels and condos in Hawaii could be booked in high season for only $300-$400 per night, I think the case for timeshares would not be very good, given that a $2200 maintenance fee corresponds to a little over $300/night. As csodjd pointed out above, $500 to $1000/night is more representative of the top hotels and condos in Hawaii.


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## VacationForever (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> You are drinking the Kool-Aid, I am afraid.


... and you are fooling yourself.  Any drop in quality of a Marriott, Hyatt or a Westin, owners are going to cry bloody murder.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 23, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> Actually, if the top ocean front hotels and condos in Hawaii could be booked in high season for only $300-$400 per night, I think the case for timeshares would not be very good, given that a $2200 maintenance fee corresponds to a little over $300/night. As csodjd pointed out above, $500 to $1000/night is more representative of the top hotels and condos in Hawaii.



I'm referring to hotels rooms at $300 (studio) which is not a fair comparison to a 2 br timeshare which is normally $600-$1100 per night. Studio units at the Marriott rent for $250-$350 per night in Maui and Oahu.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 23, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> As I've pointed out often in other threads, the rates on Marriott.com are only faulty/meaningless for those individuals like you who are willing to rent from other owners. For people like us who have never rented from an owner and probably never will, for-rent-by-owner rates are just as meaningless to us as Marriott.com rates are for you. For *any* person, it's important to use a comparison that is relevant to your own situation. To do otherwise would be a prime example of faulty reasoning.



I totally agree that it is faulty. Even more so when Marriott.com prices are used as a measure of "its value" vs what the open market dictates. Its not any different from car that is bought from the dealer. The list price which you bought it might be $50,000, but the real open market price if you turned around and sold it might only be $40,000. Basing the value of what you are getting out of your timeshare on retail pricing is erroneous. While you might not rent from an owner as you perceive it as a risk, many do. It is not different from buying resale timeshares vs from the developer. Stating that a timeshare's value is what the developer placed on it is so erroneous and more commonly we establish the value of the timeshare based on its resale value on the open market which determines its true value, whether you would buy resale or not.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> Studio units at the Marriott rent for $250-$350 per night in Maui and Oahu.



Not in prime winter season, at least on Maui. I just looked on Marriott.com and studio rates at MOC start at over $500/night before taxes and resort fees in January, February, and March 2018. KoOlina can be done toward the high end of your range as rates start there at $320/night before taxes and fees. For rent by owner rates are another matter though - I've seen prime time MOC studios listed for $1500 for a week - so if that is your comparison, your $250-$350 range is actually high. For someone willing to play aggressively in the for-rent-by-owner marketplace, I'm not sure ownership could ever be justified.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> I totally agree that it is faulty. Even more so when Marriott.com prices are used as a measure of "its value" vs what the open market dictates. Its not any different from car that is bought from the dealer. The list price which you bought it might be $50,000, but the real open market price if you turned around and sold it might only be $40,000. Basing the value of what you are getting out of your timeshare on retail pricing is erroneous. While you might not rent from an owner as you perceive it as a risk, many do. It is not different from buying resale timeshares vs from the developer. Stating that a timeshare's value is what the developer placed on it is so erroneous and more commonly we establish the value of the timeshare based on its resale value on the open market which determines its true value, whether you would buy resale or not.



But what I'm talking about is not some theoretical, singular market definition of "value". I'm talking about a real-world comparison of two realistic alternatives for any given individual, and in that situation, you can have different "values" for the identical product, but with the values differing by how that product is delivered. For those individuals comfortable renting from an owner, their "value" of a timeshare should be compared to the alternative that is relevant for them. For those of us who only rent through the more direct channels like Marriott.com, Expedia, etc., then our "value" is different. We are willing to pay the higher direct rates for the added security of dealing with a corporate entity vs. an individual. The difference between the by-owner rate and the direct rate is the added value created by the perceived greater security of that direct-delivered transaction.

Using your car example - and I'll stick with two used cars since I think that is more relevant to the timeshare analogy that a new car - you'll generally pay more for a used car of a given age and mileage when bought from the used car department of a large, established car dealer than a similar used car bought from an individual from an ad in Auto Trader. Used car valuation sources like Kelly Blue Book even differentiate between dealer resales and private party resales when you query used car values on their site. They recognize that the market attributes greater value to dealer resales than private party resales, since you have a dealer standing behind the transaction. So, I think timeshare rentals are much the same - the value of a direct booking is greater than the value of a private-party rental due to the real or perceived greater security of the direct transaction.

I guess what I'm saying is any definition of "value" has to consider how that value is delivered. The by-owner rental market is a different delivery channel than the direct channel, so the same product has a different value depending on which channel it is delivered through. Each channel has different characteristics and risk profiles, which have a direct impact on the value of the product delivered through each channel.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 23, 2017)

Renting a timeshare from an owner is different than renting the same timeshare from Marriott.com:

The rental from an owner is always seven days; Marriott will rent any number of days.
The rental from an owner typically starts Friday, Saturday, or Sunday; Marriott will start your rental any day of the week you want.
The rental from an owner has a "no cancellation" policy; Marriott will let you cancel at no cost fairly close to the rental start date.
The rental from an owner is essentially without recourse if anything goes wrong; Marriott has to make it right if you are a retail renter.
The rental from Marriott comes with daily housekeeping.
Etc.


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## VacationForever (Nov 23, 2017)

I am like Jim, who have not ever rented from an owner and do not believe I will in the future either.  In a private rental, there is always a risk of flying for hours and showing up to not having a room that one has paid for.  It is just not worth the worry from the point of booking/paying privately until the day that we show up at our destination.


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## csodjd (Nov 23, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> Not in prime winter season, at least on Maui. I just looked on Marriott.com and studio rates at MOC start at over $500/night before taxes and resort fees in January, February, and March 2018. KoOlina can be done toward the high end of your range as rates start there at $320/night before taxes and fees. For rent by owner rates are another matter though - I've seen prime time MOC studios listed for $1500 for a week - so if that is your comparison, your $250-$350 range is actually high. For someone willing to play aggressively in the for-rent-by-owner marketplace, I'm not sure ownership could ever be justified.


If your TS interest is in a studio, I'm not sure buying a timeshare is a good decision. I've got two bedroom units. Holds the whole family (grown kids), six people, even seven or eight if the convertible sofa is used. Plus there's that kitchen, which is worth a lot of money! 

I paid $1300/nt for a 1-bedroom ocean front suite this past January at Princeville (yes, included a butler, but really...). Nice room, but not any nicer than my 2-bedroom timeshares, and not as big. 

What does a Marriott or Hyatt or Hilton, etc., charge to rent a two-bedroom ocean front room in a hotel? That's your comparison starting place.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 23, 2017)

Quadmaniac said:


> As everything else, MF will go up as everything costs more, but with so many cheap rentals in the whole region, that has a downward pressure on the rental price. And when you compare it to the MF, you're right, it doesn't make sense to own thus the drop in price as no one wants it. The prices do fluctuate in Hawaii but if the rentals stay high like $300-400 a night for 4* places, there will be a market for timeshares there. I can't see things getting cheaper there where the cost of electricity is atrocious. Everything has to be flow in to the island, increasing the costs for everything.



Electricity rates in Hawaii should come down if they can start importing LNG. It will likely come from Canada so it doesn't have to sail on US flagged ships (which is basically impossible). Of they replace expensive diesel with much cheaper gas that will be a huge savings for residents and TS owners alike. That should also allow them to use more solar.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

csodjd said:


> If your TS interest is in a studio, I'm not sure buying a timeshare is a good decision. I've got two bedroom units. Holds the whole family (grown kids), six people, even seven or eight if the convertible sofa is used. Plus there's that kitchen, which is worth a lot of money!
> 
> I paid $1300/nt for a 1-bedroom ocean front suite this past January at Princeville (yes, included a butler, but really...). Nice room, but not any nicer than my 2-bedroom timeshares, and not as big.
> 
> What does a Marriott or Hyatt or Hilton, etc., charge to rent a two-bedroom ocean front room in a hotel? That's your comparison starting place.



Totally agree. I used the studio example only because that was the metric that Quadmaniac had used, so I tried to be consistent. I also agree that 2BR is the sweet spot for most timeshare uses. Several months ago when we started actively evaluating buying an every other year at Maui Ocean Club, I was focused on a 1BR since our kids are in college and more or less out of the nest. But I quickly realized that a 2BR would offer more long term flexibility for not much more annual maintenance fee cost, so that's what we're focusing on acquiring now.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 23, 2017)

I own at a place that has only had one increase in the last 10 years that was not only attributed to property tax. Even that increase was only 4%. Think about that. 4% in 10 years. That ownership aside, timeshare maintenance fees have risen way higher than hotel prices and it isn’t even close.

Most timeshares are a ticking time bomb and Marriott is no exception. Huge Marriott fan (I currently own 50+ Marriott weeks) but their methods are not sustainable long term. Rental prices are not going up nearly as fast as the maintenance fees.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> ... and you are fooling yourself.  Any drop in quality of a Marriott, Hyatt or a Westin, owners are going to cry bloody murder.


I think our big difference is that I do not believe maintenance fees need to increase at a far higher than the rate of inflation to maintain quality.  My full ownership condo was able to maintain its premier quality for little or no increase in MF over the past 10 years.  Marriott timeshares did that until about 10-12 years ago.  We owned them for 15-20 years in much higher inflation times when their MF increases were much less than today and quality was maintained.  In 2 or 3 years the MF even went down a bit.


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## Hi I'm new here (Nov 23, 2017)

If someone wants to go to Hawaii package deals consisting of Air, lodging and car rental totally blow timeshares out of the water.  We’ve taken package deals through major travel companies that were shockingly cheap and we stay in very nice places. Packages by far are the best Hawaiian travel value.  You can mix, match pricing levels on hotels, condos, rental homes, car rental and they provide efficient, logical airline itineraries.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> I think our big difference is that I do not believe maintenance fees need to increase at a far higher than the rate of inflation to maintain quality.  My full ownership condo was able to maintain its premier quality for little or no increase in MF over the past 10 years.  Marriott timeshares did that until about 10-12 years ago.  We owned them for 15-20 years in much higher inflation times when their MF increases were much less than today and quality was maintained.  In 2 or 3 years the MF even went down a bit.



A full ownership condo doesn't have the same labor/healthcare costs as a timeshare due to housekeeping needs, so wouldn't a timeshare find it tougher to maintain level fees than a full ownership property? Nevertheless, your point is a good one, that MVC fee increases seem higher than they need to be. I've been reading the HGVC board a lot recently because we're working on adding a HGVC to our Marriott ownership, and I've noted that HGVC maintenance fees only seem to be rising 2% to 3% for 2018 versus generally 5% or so for MVC. That proves quality can be maintained with more reasonable increases.


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## csodjd (Nov 24, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> Totally agree. I used the studio example only because that was the metric that Quadmaniac had used, so I tried to be consistent. I also agree that 2BR is the sweet spot for most timeshare uses. Several months ago when we started actively evaluating buying an every other year at Maui Ocean Club, I was focused on a 1BR since our kids are in college and more or less out of the nest. But I quickly realized that a 2BR would offer more long term flexibility for not much more annual maintenance fee cost, so that's what we're focusing on acquiring now.


And, of course, at Maui, they are all lock-off units so a 2-bedroom for a week can also be a 1-bedroom for 2 weeks. Or a 1-b and a rental that can pay for or offset MF, making your 1-bedroom nearly cost-free.


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## csodjd (Nov 24, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> A full ownership condo doesn't have the same labor/healthcare costs as a timeshare due to housekeeping needs, so wouldn't a timeshare find it tougher to maintain level fees than a full ownership property? Nevertheless, your point is a good one, that MVC fee increases seem higher than they need to be. I've been reading the HGVC board a lot recently because we're working on adding a HGVC to our Marriott ownership, and I've noted that HGVC maintenance fees only seem to be rising 2% to 3% for 2018 versus generally 5% or so for MVC. That proves quality can be maintained with more reasonable increases.


I just got my HGVC bill for 2018, along with the budget and cover letter. Here is the breakdown for a 2-bedroom, ocean view, Lagoon Tower (8,400 points): Hawaii GE tax, $67.51, Club Dues, $170, Operating Fee, $1,126.89, Reserve Fee, $305.78, Real Estate Taxes, $171.94. Total $1842.12, representing a 1.4% increase.


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## VacationForever (Nov 24, 2017)

csodjd said:


> And, of course, at Maui, they are all lock-off units so a 2-bedroom for a week can also be a 1-bedroom for 2 weeks. Or a 1-b and a rental that can pay for or offset MF, making your 1-bedroom nearly cost-free.


I believe most of the big names timeshares in Maui are all locked off into 1 BR and 1 studio and not 2 1BRs.  The studios are very small.  I am not familiar with HGVC timeshare in general so their property in Maui may be an exception.


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## dagger1 (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi I'm new here said:


> If someone wants to go to Hawaii package deals consisting of Air, lodging and car rental totally blow timeshares out of the water.  We’ve taken package deals through major travel companies that were shockingly cheap and we stay in very nice places. Packages by far are the best Hawaiian travel value.  You can mix, match pricing levels on hotels, condos, rental homes, car rental and they provide efficient, logical airline itineraries.


Can you give the website where I can get a package deal: air, rental car and OV 2BR?  Can’t use a hotel room, need a 2/2.  And I need a full resort with all amenities, not a condo/house 2 plus blocks from the ocean.  Thanks!


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## csodjd (Nov 25, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I believe most of the big names timeshares in Maui are all locked off into 1 BR and 1 studio and not 2 1BRs.  The studios are very small.  I am not familiar with HGVC timeshare in general so their property in Maui may be an exception.


Yes, you're correct. The 2-bed locks off to a 1-bed and studio. So it can be a 1-bed for a week and a studio for a week. 

Sadly, no HGVC properties in Maui.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

Hi I'm new here said:


> If someone wants to go to Hawaii package deals consisting of Air, lodging and car rental totally blow timeshares out of the water.  We’ve taken package deals through major travel companies that were shockingly cheap and we stay in very nice places. Packages by far are the best Hawaiian travel value.  You can mix, match pricing levels on hotels, condos, rental homes, car rental and they provide efficient, logical airline itineraries.



I would say it depends on the quality of the package and whether you are getting a hotel room or a 2 bedroom ocean view condo-like suite in a 4-5 star resort. I did a great package when we went to 3 islands in French Polynesia a few years ago but it was very expensive because we stayed in 4.5 and 5 star huge overwater bungalows. I won’t quote the price here but it cost more then the upfront fee for many timeshares. The price per night was comparable to Hawaii, though. We went for almost 2 weeks, I believe. So we have found buying high quality time shares (4-5 star resorts) to give us a lot more space at what we consider to be a reasonable price.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

csodjd said:


> I just got my HGVC bill for 2018, along with the budget and cover letter. Here is the breakdown for a 2-bedroom, ocean view, Lagoon Tower (8,400 points): Hawaii GE tax, $67.51, Club Dues, $170, Operating Fee, $1,126.89, Reserve Fee, $305.78, Real Estate Taxes, $171.94. Total $1842.12, representing a 1.4% increase.



Sounds good. Which Hawaii timeshare is this? Is it annual? Do they have EOY and lock offs?

BTW, just an FYI for TUG readers, Hawaii has the lowest property taxes in the nation but very high state income taxes, real estate costs, cost of living and high expenses to maintain oceanside properties from wear and tear from sea salt. I think Hawaii’s property tax is about 0.2% or so. Compare that to Houston where there is no state income tax, low cost of living and real estate is cheap but property taxes average 3-4%. You may be able to buy timeshares in cheaper states inland away from the ocean to avoid ocean wear and tear and the high cost of living in islands and coastal areas.


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## Foggy1 (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> BTW, just an FYI for TUG readers, Hawaii has the lowest property taxes in the nation but very high state income taxes, real estate costs, cost of living and high expenses to maintain oceanside properties from wear and tear from sea salt. I think Hawaii’s property tax is about 0.2% or so.


From the Maui County site for Taxation:
The Tax Rate for Homeowners = $2.86/1000 which is the quoted 0.2% or so.  Maui's Tax Rate for Timeshares = $15.43/1000.  Not cheap  They also charges Hotels and Resorts at ~ $9.50/1000.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

Foggy1 said:


> From the Maui County site for Taxation:
> The Tax Rate for Homeowners = $2.86/1000 which is the quoted 0.2% or so.  Maui's Tax Rate for Timeshares = $15.43/1000.  Not cheap  They also charges Hotels and Resorts at ~ $9.50/1000.



They must have a different tax structure for timeshares because it is not real estate. But it doesn’t matter because it is such a small percentage of the MF. People get too nit picky about the components of this stuff. Maybe it would be better to not own timeshares and rent instead?


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## davidvel (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> They must have a different tax structure for timeshares because it is not real estate. But it doesn’t matter because it is such a small percentage of the MF. People get too nit picky about the components of this stuff. Maybe it would be better to not own timeshares and rent instead?


It is higher because high taxation without representation is easy.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

davidvel said:


> It is higher because high taxation without representation is easy.



Hmm??? I am confused by your comment.


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## davidvel (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Hmm??? I am confused by your comment.


Timeshare owners don't live in Hawaii, so they can't vote for keeping taxes low or against those who raise them.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

davidvel said:


> Timeshare owners don't live in Hawaii, so they can't vote for keeping taxes low or against those who raise them.



In my opinion, timeshares are a Vacation product, not a real estate product. So the locals should be the ones deciding how they want hotels and resorts to benefit the local economy.


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## garyk01 (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Just doing a survey. Is owning a Marriott timeshare week still popular? Are Marriott weeks still in demand by timeshare owners? Even though maintenance fees are going up, are owners still okay with owning Marriott weeks? We just bought a 2 bedroom lockoff for a very low upfront fee and we feel it is a good deal compared to the cost of renting a small hotel room for a week in the same location. Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for almost free elsewhere. If you buy where you want to use, like Hawaii, it seems like an excellent deal because one week in a 2 bedroom rents for $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.




i owned at Sands of Kahana Maui Hi . they have the largest 3 bedroom units on the island. over 2000 square feet plus two balconies. I sold both of them this year to another owner there, due to the parents who traveled with us say the flights are getting to long for them. two of us no longer can pay for a large unit as fees were $2100 a week 2017 and 2018-2022 are $2600 a week due to the land lease being paid off in the next 10 years. the place rents for $395 to $595 a week from the resort.

important thing about time shares is buy them if you can use them, factor in all costs , purchase price, Maintence fees, trading fees, membership fees to trade, and how long you might use it for in years before you get too old to travel . do the math and see if renting is better or buying on resale. I just sold all my weeks in palm springs CA (had 8 RED )back to the resort as they wanted them to re sell them as points . I took a big lose doing this however my Maintence fees are $0 with them now and I can rent where I like now and not be confined to the one resort . I kept one week at another resort in the area and sold the other one I owned there as well. this allows me to still trade into other places if need be as I have a long term trading membership with SFX and RTX exchanges.


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## Foggy1 (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> They must have a different tax structure for timeshares because it is not real estate. But it doesn’t matter because it is such a small percentage of the MF. People get too nit picky about the components of this stuff. Maybe it would be better to not own timeshares and rent instead?


Maui's Real Property tax rates ($/1000 of assessed valuation) effective July 1, 2017:
A. Residential - $5.54
B. Apartment - $6.32
C. Commercial - $7.28
D. Industrial - $7.49
E. Agricultural - $6.01
F. Conservation - $6.37
G. Hotel Resort - $9.37
H. Time Share - $15.43
I. Homeowner - $2.86
J. Commercialized Residential - $4.56

Yes, they have several tax rates and the County people do their best to soak the transients/tourists.


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## mauiredweek (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Just doing a survey. Is owning a Marriott timeshare week still popular? Are Marriott weeks still in demand by timeshare owners? Even though maintenance fees are going up, are owners still okay with owning Marriott weeks? We just bought a 2 bedroom lockoff for a very low upfront fee and we feel it is a good deal compared to the cost of renting a small hotel room for a week in the same location. Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for almost free elsewhere. If you buy where you want to use, like Hawaii, it seems like an excellent deal because one week in a 2 bedroom rents for $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.



Yes.  Marriott is one of the best ownership's and I do agree that the best way to get them is resale.


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## mauiredweek (Nov 25, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Just doing a survey. Is owning a Marriott timeshare week still popular? Are Marriott weeks still in demand by timeshare owners? Even though maintenance fees are going up, are owners still okay with owning Marriott weeks? We just bought a 2 bedroom lockoff for a very low upfront fee and we feel it is a good deal compared to the cost of renting a small hotel room for a week in the same location. Plus we can deposit the studio and get one week for almost free elsewhere. If you buy where you want to use, like Hawaii, it seems like an excellent deal because one week in a 2 bedroom rents for $5000-$8000 per week with an ocean view, I believe.



YES, the annual fee is reasonable compared to what a rental would cost, and if you have a 2 BR you can split it and rent that half. Marriott is one of the best programs out there.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

Foggy1 said:


> Maui's Real Property tax rates ($/1000 of assessed valuation) effective July 1, 2017:
> A. Residential - $5.54
> B. Apartment - $6.32
> C. Commercial - $7.28
> ...



All places dependent on tourism do this. It’s normal. This is how Florida survives given they have no state income tax. The Caribbean does the same thing too.


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## RussellSun (Nov 25, 2017)

mauiredweek said:


> YES, the annual fee is reasonable compared to what a rental would cost, and if you have a 2 BR you can split it and rent that half. Marriott is one of the best programs out there.


]

In the past 12 years, the cheapest I have paid for a one week rental in any island in Hawaii was $3400 for a studio. I have paid much more for hotel rooms in Hawaii. $2200 for a 2 bedroom with a full kitchen and an ocean view in Hawaii sounds like paradise to me. I think this is why Marriott is raising MFs. They know they can rent these units out for a lot more themselves if owners do not want to pay the MFs anymore. Remember, most people do not know TUG and Redweek exist and do not like renting from owners on VRBO or places like that. It feels too risky. Most people rent through Expedia or the hotels themselves. I used to only rent through reputable booking companies and not direct from owners before. A Marriott 2 bedroom with ocean view in Expedia rents for $8300 including tax on Expedia in the summer. Aulani next door rents for a lot more for a smaller size 2 bedroom. I think they rent for $400 more than the 2 bedroom Marriotts per night because they are Disney.


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## csodjd (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Sounds good. Which Hawaii timeshare is this? Is it annual? Do they have EOY and lock offs?


Lagoon Tower, Hilton Hawaiian Village. Annual, platinum year (which means all year except two weeks of Xmas/New Year). No lock offs. 

One thing nice with Hilton/Lagoon Tower is August is a big holiday time in Japan and demand for rooms at the Lagoon Tower from Japanese visitors is very high, meaning excellent rental opportunity/value at that time as a "fail safe." If I can't use my TS in, say, 2018, I just book my 2-bed OV room for August, and there's no problem renting it for a multiple of the MF. (For instance, right now there is nothing available for August 2018, and July asking price is $4000/wk. on Redbook.) 

Marriott Maui is similar, but the margin between MF and rental is smaller due to the higher MF.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 26, 2017)

There are a lot of ways to compare values, as many as there are people. Let me give a list of questions.

Is there a "must have" island?
Is there a "must have" view?
Is oceanfront a "must have, or a "don't care", or even "no way, Jose'"?
Are you a trader, or a own-for-use person?
If you are a trader, is a lock-off a necessity?
Are you willing to rent from individuals?
Do you need "prime time", or are you "shoulder season" person?
How fancy of a pool do you require?
Are you a "restaurant" person, or "cook in the kitchen" person?
How much are you willing to spend, with continually inflating MF's for your vacation?
Do you have to have a "Big Name" seal of approval for your timeshare?
High rise or low rise?

And this just scratches the surface. Depending on how you answer these questions, you set the value, the "apple", for your comparison. Also, in doing so, you are setting the parameters for your comparisons. I'll use myself as an example.

Is there a "must have" island? YES - Big Island
Is there a "must have" view? NO
Is oceanfront a "must have, or a "don't care", or even "no way, Jose'"? NO WAY JOSE'
Are you a trader, or a own-for-use person? OWN FOR USE
If you are a trader, is a lock-off a necessity? NO
Are you willing to rent from individuals? YES
Do you need "prime time", or are you "shoulder season" person? PRIME TIME
How fancy of a pool do you require? NOT FANCY
Are you a "restaurant" person, or "cook in the kitchen" person? COOK IN THE KITCHEN
How much are you willing to spend, with continually inflating MF's for your vacation? LOW to MEDIUM PRICE
Do you have to have a "Big Name" seal of approval for your timeshare? YES
High rise or low rise? LOW RISE

So, for me. . . The main "Big Name" on the BI is HGVC. Their quality is comparable to Marriott (I've owned both). Of the HGVC properties, Bay Club is comfortable and spacious, but lacking the fancy amenities of a "super resort". It also lacks the price of the "super resort". I am not a trader, so lock-offs and trading value are meaningless to me. No particular view, but then again, I don't care about views, anyways. Current MF price for a top floor (of 3 floors), between $1500 and $1600 a week. I can afford 3 weeks a year, at that price. (In January to February, in a block, thank you. . . And by the way, the total purchase cost for 3 weeks odd and 1 week even (still working on the even weeks) has been about $5700, funded by selling 2 weeks back to Marriott, for $5300.)

Your choices will define you. . .


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> There are a lot of ways to compare values, as many as there are people. Let me give a list of questions.
> 
> Is there a "must have" island?
> Is there a "must have" view?
> ...



Great way to look at making a timeshare ownership decision!


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 26, 2017)

Glad you found it of use. My goal is to use timeshares as a surrogate vacation home. I don't plan on being at my "vacation home" for more than a month a year, and the cost is less that the taxes/condo fees for a condo in Hawaii, and with peanuts for purchase cost, and no ownership hassles. My research on the BI showed that a condo would require around $10-15 K a year for taxes/fees. For 3 weeks, around $5 K in MFs at Bay Club. The upfront costs are a write-off but if I get in at less than $10 k total, so what? No mortgage, no $300,000 sunk into real estate. Cheap, and stays cheap.

And if you rent a little storage room, you can keep your clothes and what-nots there from year to year, and not have to worry about hauling extra bags to Hawaii every trip. . .    (Think of it as the store room you would have had at the condo.)


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Glad you found it of use. My goal is to use timeshares as a surrogate vacation home. I don't plan on being at my "vacation home" for more than a month a year, and the cost is less that the taxes/condo fees for a condo in Hawaii, and with peanuts for purchase cost, and no ownership hassles. My research on the BI showed that a condo would require around $10-15 K a year for taxes/fees. For 3 weeks, around $5 K in MFs at Bay Club. The upfront costs are a write-off but if I get in at less than $10 k total, so what? No mortgage, no $300,000 sunk into real estate. Cheap, and stays cheap.
> 
> And if you rent a little storage room, you can keep your clothes and what-nots there from year to year, and not have to worry about hauling extra bags to Hawaii every trip. . .



Yes, all good points. I think Hawaii timeshares are great for the same reasons.


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## davidvel (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> All places dependent on tourism do this. It’s normal. This is how Florida survives given they have no state income tax. The Caribbean does the same thing too.


No. In California real estate taxes do not follow that pattern.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 26, 2017)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> There are a lot of ways to compare values, as many as there are people. Let me give a list of questions.
> 
> Is there a "must have" island?
> Is there a "must have" view?
> ...



I like your list of questions, so just for the heck of it, I answered them for our situation where we are looking to buy at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club. Different from yours in a number of respects.

Is there a "must have" island? YES - Maui
Is there a "must have" view? YES - OV or OF
Is oceanfront a "must have, or a "don't care", or even "no way, Jose'"? OV or OF is a "must have"
Are you a trader, or a own-for-use person? Buying MOC will be for use; we own DC points for "trading"
If you are a trader, is a lock-off a necessity? Not a weeks trader, but lock-off is desirable for locking off and maybe booking two weeks (or four weeks if we ever buy a second MOC week.)
Are you willing to rent from individuals? NO
Do you need "prime time", or are you "shoulder season" person? Need to be able to book prime time for Maui humpback whale season
How fancy of a pool do you require? Don't really need a fancy pool, but still like the ambiance and overall feel of the nicely landscaped super pools
Are you a "restaurant" person, or "cook in the kitchen" person? Breakfast and lunch in the kitchen, dinner at great restaurants
How much are you willing to spend, with continually inflating MF's for your vacation? Want the total cost of ownership to be lower than booking oceanview/oceanfront hotels or condos from mainstream rental sites like Marriott.com, Expedia, Orbitz, etc. Hotel prices rise also over time.
Do you have to have a "Big Name" seal of approval for your timeshare? YES - prefer brands like Marriott and HGVC for guarantee of brand quality
High rise or low rise? Either; no real preference


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## csodjd (Nov 26, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> I like your list of questions, so just for the heck of it, I answered them for our situation where we are looking to buy at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club. Different from yours in a number of respects.
> 
> Is there a "must have" island? YES - Maui
> Is there a "must have" view? YES - OV or OF
> ...


Geeze... you stole my answers. 

I'm more flexible time wise though, pretty much any time of the year once 2020 passes and youngest is in college. Have 2 home week units with HGVC at Lagoon Tower. Now an odd-year 2-bed OF Marriott Maui. Will probably look to add a second odd-year Maui unless Hilton opens something there.


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## mdurette (Nov 26, 2017)

Panina said:


> I am not a Marriott owner in the present or in the past.  I have traded many times into Marriotts in Florida, Boston, Hilton Head and Myrtle Beach.
> 
> They are alway great, no complaints but as long as I can trade into them , when I desire to travel, I have no desire to own one because of the high maintenance fees. My maintenance, II fees and trade fees still are way less.
> 
> If you had a highly desirable time period and a highly desirable area that you can't trade into, to me would  makes Marriott highly desirable.




Yes...this is the reason why I haven't taken the Marriott purchase plunge yet.     I fully admit - most of these trades have been during flex or started out with a trade to a studio and then eplus to something bigger.   They have taken the time to search them out.  But, if you are willing to do the work with a cheap-o unit, then why not?

Just in the last 2 years we have managed the following:
Aruba Ocean Club April - 2BR
Frenchmans Cove Feb - 2 BR
Custom House July - 1BR
Sabel Palms, Grand Vista and Harbor Lake - too many times to count


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

davidvel said:


> No. In California real estate taxes do not follow that pattern.



Geeze, I mean when you go to a hotel, a bunch of tourism-related taxes are added to your bill. A timeshare is not real estate.


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## csodjd (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Geeze, I mean when you go to a hotel, a bunch of tourism-related taxes are added to your bill. A timeshare is not real estate.


Not the least of which is the "resort fee," a required fee that does nothing more than allow them to advertise a lower cost than you are really charged. Common to also see a "tourism tax" of 10% or so. Oh, and in San Francisco, plan another $55/nt for parking a car.


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

csodjd said:


> Not the least of which is the "resort fee," a required fee that does nothing more than allow them to advertise a lower cost than you are really charged. Common to also see a "tourism tax" of 10% or so. Oh, and in San Francisco, plan another $55/nt for parking a car.



Exactly, that's the point. All hotels add on a bunch of fees that can add hundreds to your bill. So why are people complaining so much about $1300 - $2200 per week for a Marriott timeshare? And they include everything in the MF. They do not add any extras in the fee like some sleazy Mexican timeshare companies do to owners.


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## davidvel (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Geeze, I mean when you go to a hotel, a bunch of tourism-related taxes are added to your bill. A timeshare is not real estate.


The posts that you were responding to were about "real property" tax rates, aka, *real estate.* You may not think they are real estate, but they are. Marriott timeshares in CA, and elsewhere, are real estate, and taxed accordingly.  

In CA Marriott timeshares are considered condominiums, and have the same property tax rates as other condominiums. 

As for hotels, they also have property taxes assessed to the owners, which the above posts were about. Totally separate and distinct from any TOT taxes, other local taxes, etc.


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## davidvel (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Exactly, that's the point. All hotels add on a bunch of fees that can add hundreds to your bill. So why are people complaining so much about $1300 - $2200 per week for a Marriott timeshare? *And they include everything in the MF. *They do not add any extras in the fee like some sleazy Mexican timeshare companies do to owners.


Incorrect. In CA, Marriott timeshare property taxes are sent directly from the local county tax collector, separate from any Marriott MF bills.


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

davidvel said:


> Incorrect. In CA, Marriott timeshare property taxes are sent directly from the local county tax collector, separate from any Marriott MF bills.



What is the point?


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## RussellSun (Nov 26, 2017)

davidvel said:


> The posts that you were responding to were about "real property" tax rates, aka, *real estate.* You may not think they are real estate, but they are. Marriott timeshares in CA, and elsewhere, are real estate, and taxed accordingly.
> 
> In CA Marriott timeshares are considered condominiums, and have the same property tax rates as other condominiums.
> 
> As for hotels, they also have property taxes assessed to the owners, which the above posts were about. Totally separate and distinct from any TOT taxes, other local taxes, etc.



Okay, what is the point?


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## JIMinNC (Nov 26, 2017)

csodjd said:


> Geeze... you stole my answers.
> 
> I'm more flexible time wise though, pretty much any time of the year once 2020 passes and youngest is in college. Have 2 home week units with HGVC at Lagoon Tower. Now an odd-year 2-bed OF Marriott Maui. Will probably look to add a second odd-year Maui unless Hilton opens something there.



Hopefully sometime in early 2018 we'll also have a 2BR EOY Odd at MOC, plus 7000 HGVC points from a platinum week at HGVC Sea World. Working on both as we speak.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 26, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> I like your list of questions, so just for the heck of it, I answered them for our situation where we are looking to buy at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club. Different from yours in a number of respects.
> 
> Is there a "must have" island? YES - Maui
> Is there a "must have" view? YES - OV or OF
> ...



This almost exactly fits our profile as well. We currently own HGVC and have been happy with it (NYC, Vegas, Oahu, Big Island) except they don't offer a Maui property.  We considered MOC OF but ultimately purchased Westin Kaanapali North OF EOY.  May augment in the future with MOC Tower EOY to mix it up.


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## davidvel (Nov 26, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Okay, what is the point?


The point is that the information that you have provided in your posts is incorrect, as noted in each reply to your posts.


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## Panina (Nov 27, 2017)

mdurette said:


> Yes...this is the reason why I haven't taken the Marriott purchase plunge yet.     I fully admit - most of these trades have been during flex or started out with a trade to a studio and then eplus to something bigger.   They have taken the time to search them out.  But, if you are willing to do the work with a cheap-o unit, then why not?
> 
> Just in the last 2 years we have managed the following:
> Aruba Ocean Club April - 2BR
> ...


The last three I have traded for was a winter week at Sabal Palms, Orlando, Thanksgiving week Barony, Hilton Head and late April week Oceanwatch, Myrtle Beach. No request, just sitting there for an instant exchange, many many months before use date.


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## Foggy1 (Nov 27, 2017)

davidvel said:


> The point is that the information that you have provided in your posts is incorrect, as noted in each reply to your posts.


This is correct for other Maui Timeshares as well.  Property Taxes are billed separately as the management companies can't project from year to year what the local tax people are going to come up with.  It has been a function of ridiculous changes to assessed value and/or changing tax rates.


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## csodjd (Nov 28, 2017)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> And if you rent a little storage room, you can keep your clothes and what-nots there from year to year, and not have to worry about hauling extra bags to Hawaii every trip. . .  (Think of it as the store room you would have had at the condo.)


This can be a great idea. Do you have any info on costs in Waikiki area for a storage rental?


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 28, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> Exactly, that's the point. All hotels add on a bunch of fees that can add hundreds to your bill. So why are people complaining so much about $1300 - $2200 per week for a Marriott timeshare? And they include everything in the MF. They do not add any extras in the fee like some sleazy Mexican timeshare companies do to owners.



All timeshare maintenance fees include extras in the fees. You stated that timeshares are not real estate but they are specifically considered real estate. Property taxes and "resort" fees are a sizable component of the Marriott maintenance fees.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 28, 2017)

csodjd said:


> This can be a great idea. Do you have any info on costs in Waikiki area for a storage rental?



I have never used anything on O'ahu, but here is one to check out in Honolulu.

https://www.storquest.com/self-storage/hi/honolulu/1012/#/units?category=Small (up to 50 SF)


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## Hi I'm new here (Nov 28, 2017)

Timeshare buildings are definitely real estate subject to property taxes.  But individual owners should not delude themselves into thinking they own real estate.  
Individual owners purchased the right to occupy a certain number of nights but they don’t really own anything.  
I’m sure someone will tell me the weekly ownership comes with a deed.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi I'm new here said:


> Timeshare buildings are definitely real estate subject to property taxes.  But individual owners should not delude themselves into thinking they own real estate.
> Individual owners purchased the right to occupy a certain number of nights but they don’t really own anything.
> I’m sure someone will tell me the weekly ownership comes with a deed.



It obviously does come with a deed and is certainly real estate ownership. Legally the only difference between a 1/52 timeshare and a wholly owned condo is 1/52 vs 1/1. From a practical stand point the 1/52 is similar to the common areas on the 1/1. Floating weeks and points overlaying the deed have skewed the ownership feeling. I like fixed units and fixed weeks because then you really are occupying your deeded owned space for your week.


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## csodjd (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi I'm new here said:


> Timeshare buildings are definitely real estate subject to property taxes.  But individual owners should not delude themselves into thinking they own real estate.
> Individual owners purchased the right to occupy a certain number of nights but they don’t really own anything.
> I’m sure someone will tell me the weekly ownership comes with a deed.


As an attorney, I'd certainly say that TS is a fractional ownership in real property. However, it comes with substantial restrictions, not the least of which is you are not allowed to manage it yourself. It is a "form" of ownership in real property, but not the familiar "fee simple" form. The deed distinguishes it from a license to occupy, which is a rental. Indeed, the LIABILITIES are one of the essential characteristics of ownership. Think of it this way. I have a few hundred shares of GM stock. I wouldn't say I own GM. But I do have an ownership interest in GM, albeit a very very tiny one.


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## davidvel (Nov 28, 2017)

csodjd said:


> As an attorney, I'd certainly say that TS is a fractional ownership in real property. However, it comes with substantial restrictions, not the least of which is you are not allowed to manage it yourself. It is a "form" of ownership in real property, but not the familiar "fee simple" form. The deed distinguishes it from a license to occupy, which is a rental. Indeed, the LIABILITIES are one of the essential characteristics of ownership. Think of it this way. I have a few hundred shares of GM stock. I wouldn't say I own GM. But I do have an ownership interest in GM, albeit a very very tiny one.


In CA, Marriott TSs are no different from a legal structure standpoint than any other common interest subdivision condo. Residential condos over a certain size in CA must be professionally managed, just like Shadow Ridge for example. You own a deeded fee simple interest the same way as a regular residential condo. In fact the CC&Rs are set up by the same law firms as the big developments. Any condo in CA could give you only 1 week in your condo instead of 52 if it was written into the CC&Rs.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 29, 2017)

csodjd said:


> As an attorney, I'd certainly say that TS is a fractional ownership in real property. However, it comes with substantial restrictions, not the least of which is you are not allowed to manage it yourself. It is a "form" of ownership in real property, but not the familiar "fee simple" form. The deed distinguishes it from a license to occupy, which is a rental. Indeed, the LIABILITIES are one of the essential characteristics of ownership. Think of it this way. I have a few hundred shares of GM stock. I wouldn't say I own GM. But I do have an ownership interest in GM, albeit a very very tiny one.



I am not seeing how you are describing it any differently than a condo. Maybe you can pick the dishes and furnishings with a wholly owned condo but even that is not always the case. There are many condos where the management company handles everything and even rents out the time you aren't there. Liabilities exist with a condo the same as a fractional, there just is usually not as much "resort" service and the higher fees that go along with it. Lower fees but less service.

Look at it this way. If you owned 52/53 weeks and you wanted to stay in the unit full time you could, and it would not functionally be any different than a wholly owned condo. This is especially true of a fixed unit/week property but you could do it with a floater if you wanted to. I own at a fixed unit/week property that has no real resort services and the fees are really low. That place is exactly like a regular condo. When you are there owner occupying you are the legal owner with all the same ownership rights as your own house.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 29, 2017)

Lots of people here keep saying that timeshare weeks are not real estate, but of course they are.  If one wants to say that they do not think of timeshares as real estate, or that the means of valuing timeshares is different from other real estate, that is OK, but they are clearly real estate and thus are taxed as such.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 29, 2017)

RussellSun said:


> They must have a different tax structure for timeshares because it is not real estate. *But it doesn’t matter because it is such a small percentage of the MF*. People get too nit picky about the components of this stuff. Maybe it would be better to not own timeshares and rent instead?


Some actual facts about Maui maintenance fees might put this statement is a different and more accurate light.  Real estate taxes (over $325) make up 12.67% of my Maui Ocean Club 2018 annual maintenance fees for a week.  Next to the Replacement Reserve, it is the single largest line item in the budget, even greater than housekeeping.  I consider that to be anything but a small item.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 29, 2017)

JIMinNC said:


> A full ownership condo doesn't have the same labor/healthcare costs as a timeshare due to housekeeping needs, so wouldn't a timeshare find it tougher to maintain level fees than a full ownership property?


For many condos that is true, but the one I am talking about (140 units and a 24-hour staff of 10-12 employees) has a labor cost comparable to that of a timeshare as a % of the total costs.  Your point would be more persuasive if labor costs were skyrocketing  but they are not.  For labor costs to account for most of the 5% MF increases they would have to be increasing well into the double digits annually and the budgets show that they are not.  Obviously a timeshare has much higher absolute costs, but here we are talking about percentage increases in costs.


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## pwrshift (Dec 3, 2017)

Where do you rent TS weeks ... on eBay?  

I haven't done it for years but because II came through for 2018 with more than I expected it left me with two studio weeks I was just going to deposit with II...but a friend said Marriott's Spring Break weeks would rent for a ton on the beach.


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