# Beware Citibank ATM Charges



## Blues (Oct 9, 2007)

Before leaving for our 3.5 week trip to Spain and Portugal, we went to both our local banks (checking acct, Citibank money market acct) to inform them that we would use their ATM cards overseas.  Citibank helpfully offered to upgrade our account status so that there would be no Citibank ATM fees when we used our card.  We gratefully accepted, and proceeded to preferentially use that card overseas.

When we got home, I found out that, while there were no *ATM* fee _per se,_ they added a 3% foreign currency fee to each transaction!  So we saved $3-5 in ATM fees and paid an average of $16 foreign currency fee each transaction!  All-in-all, this little deception cost us $50 in fees, which isn't the end of the world, but very annoying.

I'm familiar with the fact that most credit cards tack on 3% for foreign currency (which is why we used our CapitalOne CC), but this is the first time I've seen it applied to an ATM withdrawal!  If I had known, I'd have used the ATM card from our local checking account.  I find this highly deceptive.  Do any other banks do this on ATM transactions?

I just thought I'd post this here to warn other TUGgers not to use Citibank ATM cards overseas, and to see if anyone else has encountered this.


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## johnmfaeth (Oct 9, 2007)

I have used various bank atm cards in Europe over the last 15 years and never remember seeing a conversion fee. What can happen is that they build in the fee in the form of a lousy exchange rate.

But I never had that problem either. Unfortuanately, I always tended to stay with local and regional banks which were less fee crazed than the big guys.

Unfortunately, the big guys have swallowed up the better smaller banks. I've been subjected to many during that time, including my mortgage holder and former car loan holder.

We live in an era of big bank fees and less service...


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## abbekit (Oct 9, 2007)

Actually this is not unusual of late.  Many bank ATM cards are now charging the conversion fee at the same rate as credit cards do.  We used our bank ATM card (Chase Bank) in Italy earlier this year.  We had to pay the bank fee ($3 per transaction) PLUS the 3% conversion.  

I'm sure that information was buried somewhere in those friendly little update booklets they send out but I tend not to read pages and pages of tiny print when they send those things.  If I had known I probably would have just charged everything to my mileage credit card and at least had some airline miles to show for my extra expense.


Here is the link to flyertalk.com with a listing of ATM and credit card info regarding fees:
http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange


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## Blues (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks to both of you for your replies.  Yes, we've entered the era of big banking <sigh>.

I finally figured out what was happening when using the internet in Portugal to inspect my account.  For our 3-day stopover in London, I used our local bank (Union Bank of California).  They gave me the true exchange rate ($2.028/£), and charged just a $5 ATM fee, no foreign currency fee.  I've now entered that information into the flyertalk page referenced by abbekit.


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## Jimster (Oct 9, 2007)

*fees*

Yes, the 3% fee is not unusual at all.  What is more iritating is it is shear profit for the bank.  That is why I always use my credit union visa since they charge no such fee.


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## dougp26364 (Oct 9, 2007)

Jimster said:


> Yes, the 3% fee is not unusual at all.  What is more iritating is it is shear profit for the bank.  That is why I always use my credit union visa since they charge no such fee.



I keep forgetting I have a savings account through my credit union. Next time we travel oversea's I'll try to remember to go ask them about their fee's when traveling abroad.


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## x3 skier (Oct 9, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> I keep forgetting I have a savings account through my credit union. Next time we travel oversea's I'll try to remember to go ask them about their fee's when traveling abroad.



I have a credit union account and they charge no fees of any kind for any ATM withdrawal anywhere and also use the bulk exchange rate.

Cheers


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## Icarus (Oct 9, 2007)

Citibank isn't the only one that does this. This is good advice for everybody.

Credit Unions are your friend. My CU just passes along the 1% fee charged by Visa USA at their wholesale exchange rate. Other CUs seem to absorb the fees charged by the associations.

-David


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## John Cummings (Oct 10, 2007)

My American Express Blue charges a 3% conversion fee that is built into the conversion rate so you don't see the fee directly but you sure pay it.

My credit union Visa does not charge a foreign exchange conversion fee.

I am going to cancel My American Express as it offer no advantages and has many disadvantages over my Credit Union Visa. The rewards are also much better with the Visa card.


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## Keitht (Oct 10, 2007)

Bear in mind that although your card provider may not apply any charges, the bank owning the ATM may.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility to be hit with a transaction charge and a foreign currency charge by the card issuer, along with a charge from the provider bank for use of their ATM.
That's one reason I tend to withdraw the maximum permitted when using ATMs in europe.


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## abbekit (Oct 10, 2007)

Keitht said:


> Bear in mind that although your card provider may not apply any charges, the bank owning the ATM may.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility to be hit with a transaction charge and a foreign currency charge by the card issuer, along with a charge from the provider bank for use of their ATM.
> That's one reason I tend to withdraw the maximum permitted when using ATMs in europe.



Also note that some financial institutions will reimburse you if the ATM that you use charges you a transaction fee.  Our Fidelity ATM card doesn't have an ATM fee but if the ATM we use charges a fee Fidelity will reimburse that up to $2.50.   So like Keith says, we get the maximum money out per transaction when we're in Europe.


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## Blues (Oct 10, 2007)

Keitht said:


> Bear in mind that although your card provider may not apply any charges, the bank owning the ATM may.



Good point, Keith (and counterpoint, abbekit).

My guide book for Spain claimed that almost no banks in Spain assess a charge from the bank owning the ATM.  My guide book for Portugal didn't have the same comment.  That's why I tried to convert to euros in Spain when possible.  E.g., on the way there, we had to stop and change planes in Madrid to get to Lisbon.  I purposely used the ATM in the Madrid airport, rather waiting for arrival in Lisbon, for this reason.  IOW, I thought I was doing everything right in order to avoid fees.  It NEVER occurred to me to ask about a foreign currency fee.  That's why this deception was very annoying to me.


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## Icarus (Oct 10, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> My American Express Blue charges a 3% conversion fee that is built into the conversion rate so you don't see the fee directly but you sure pay it.



I thought Amex charges 2%. Does Blue charge more than the other Amex cards?

Also, I don't think any of the credit card companies build the exchange rate into the transaction anymore at least not without detailing the forex fee on a separate line. There was a class action lawsuit on this a couple of years ago, and that's when all the issuers stopped the practice of just hiding the fee in the conversion rate, and the card associations that handle the transaction now charge the banks their 1% conversion fee separately rather than building it into the exchange rate. You still pay the same amount, unless your card issuer doesn't pass along the 1% fee, but the fee is separated out and is considered a finance charge now.

-David


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## John Cummings (Oct 11, 2007)

Icarus said:


> I thought Amex charges 2%. Does Blue charge more than the other Amex cards?
> 
> Also, I don't think any of the credit card companies build the exchange rate into the transaction anymore at least not without detailing the forex fee on a separate line. There was a class action lawsuit on this a couple of years ago, and that's when all the issuers stopped the practice of just hiding the fee in the conversion rate, and the card associations that handle the transaction now charge the banks their 1% conversion fee separately rather than building it into the exchange rate. You still pay the same amount, unless your card issuer doesn't pass along the 1% fee, but the fee is separated out and is considered a finance charge now.
> 
> -David



I have no idea whether Blue charges more or not but I definitely know that it is 3%.

I used it this year for some charges for purchases in Canada. I saw that the conversion rate was considerably lower than the actual conversion rate at the time. I called American Express Blue about it and they told me there was a 3% foreign exchange conversion fee and it was NOT stated separately. I would not have been aware of it if I didn't know what the conversion rate should have been at the time. When I realized this I switched to using my Credit Union Visa card which has no conversion fee. Fortunately I discovered it before I had charged very much. It would have made a substantial difference as I charged over $10,000 in Canadian purchases this year.


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## Carolinian (Oct 11, 2007)

I have two ATM cards.  Wachovia pops me with two fees, one of $5 and one of about $2.  My credit union card only charges 50 cents.

Here in eastern Europe, I often use exchange houses, which usually charge no commissions and have very low margins between buying and selling rates, often under 1%.  On a recent excursion into Bulgaria, I was particularly amazed at the number of currencies one could exchange for spreads of under 1%.  For dollars, pounds, Swiss francs, and euros it was under half of 1%.  I have an upcoming trip to Cyprus, and was even able to get Cyprus pounds for under 1% spread.  I doubt I would get as good a deal in Cyprus itself, so I hit the ATM (credit union) to get as much leva as I could to convert to Cyprus pounds.  

The fees for using an ATM can be a problem.  In some countries, all ATM's charge a fee, like Greece, while in others like Moldova, none of them do.  The best bet to avoid fees charged by the ATM you are using is to use one attached to a bank.  Free standing ATM's at railway stations, airports, highway reststops, etc. are much more likely to charge such fees.  Banks are no guarantee, however, as I well remember looking closely at ATM's attached to banks in Gdansk, Poland only to note that all were independently provided by a third party firm which DID charge a fee.


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## Jimster (Oct 11, 2007)

*Amex*

Another related problem in some countries is their unwillingness or reluctance to accept Amex.  Amex clearly charges the higher fee to merchants and they don't want to reduce their profits.  Hence, they are reluctant to accept the Amex card.  There are, of course, Amex service centers, but it can be annoying I suppose if you generally rely on your Amex card.  The Netherlands is a good case in point.


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## John Cummings (Oct 11, 2007)

There are many vendors in the US that do not accept American Express.


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## Carolinian (Oct 11, 2007)

Jimster said:


> Another related problem in some countries is their unwillingness or reluctance to accept Amex.  Amex clearly charges the higher fee to merchants and they don't want to reduce their profits.  Hence, they are reluctant to accept the Amex card.  There are, of course, Amex service centers, but it can be annoying I suppose if you generally rely on your Amex card.  The Netherlands is a good case in point.



I know the feeling!  The business card I am issued by the organization I work for is Amex, and that is often difficult to use in this part of Europe outside of most airlines and prominent hotels.  Other expats seem to have their organizations issue them Visa cards, which are far more usable.


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## Carolinian (Oct 11, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> There are many vendors in the US that do not accept American Express.



When I primarily flew Delta and AmEx was my card for miles, I changed my business away from a number of such vendors and told them directly why I did so.

BTW, one of the few things I like better about RCI over DAE is that RCI takes AmEx and DAE doesn't.  Even though I put most of my miles now on my USBank Visa card for NW miles, I still sometimes use my personal Delta Amex, particularly with vendors in categories where Amex gives double miles.


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## John Cummings (Oct 11, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> When I primarily flew Delta and AmEx was my card for miles, I changed my business away from a number of such vendors and told them directly why I did so.
> 
> BTW, one of the few things I like better about RCI over DAE is that RCI takes AmEx and DAE doesn't.  Even though I put most of my miles now on my USBank Visa card for NW miles, I still sometimes use my personal Delta Amex, particularly with vendors in categories where Amex gives double miles.



My Credit Union Visa gives me better rewards including airline miles as well as many other options. The Visa gives me 25% more for the same amount of credit card charges.


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## Jimster (Oct 11, 2007)

*Amex*



John Cummings said:


> There are many vendors in the US that do not accept American Express.



Of course, that's true but in many European countries it is systemic.  In some countries almost No ONE will accept Amex but they welcome Visa and Mastercard.  You could go  hungry if you plan on charging your meals to Amex.


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## John Cummings (Oct 12, 2007)

Jimster said:


> Of course, that's true but in many European countries it is systemic.  In some countries almost No ONE will accept Amex but they welcome Visa and Mastercard.  You could go  hungry if you plan on charging your meals to Amex.



That is true in Mexico as well. I really do not see any advantage to having an American Express card and I do see many disadvantages.

I received my American Express Blue card when Bank of America took over MBNA. I had a Quantum Master Charge at MBNA that got converted to an an American Express when Bank of America took it over.


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## x3 skier (Oct 12, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> That is true in Mexico as well.



Never had problems in Europe or Mexico with my AMEX (but I do carry a Master Card as a back up  )

I usually am in major cities so it may be smaller towns where there is more trouble getting AMEX accepted.

Cheers


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## Blues (Oct 13, 2007)

*Update - refund*

I've now gotten the foreign currency fees refunded to my account.  This was entirely due to the effort of the representative at the local bank; I don't think Citibank corporate even knows about it.

This was the local representative who promised to upgrade our account so there wouldn't be any ATM fees.  We went to him and complained about the fees.  We didn't let on that we knew they were foreign currency fees; we let him believe that we believed they were ATM fees, and he credited our account.  

It just goes to show, it doesn't hurt to ask.  And to shut up once you've conveyed adequate information


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