# Final Straw- Selling our Marriott/Vistana Timeshares



## nokaoi9 (Jun 12, 2020)

After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.

Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th.  I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date  of less than 60 days from booking.  To say I was furious is an understatement.  How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.  I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II.  On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out.  It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.

Having Tug there to learn from since the beginning was invaluable.  We fortunately purchased Ko Olina via resale prior to finding Tug, but learned how to really maximize our ownership here over the years.  Whenever we had a question, the community was quick to offer advice, which was always appreciated.  Mahalo nui for all the great recommendations and suggestions over the years, it has been truly appreciated. 

Aloha.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 12, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th. I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date of less than 60 days from booking. To say I was furious is an understatement. How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine? While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days. I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II. On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out. It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...



I’m perplexed at your anger being directed at MVCI and/or Marriott. Hawaii places these restrictions, many of us had to cancel, us in May with an oceanfront in Ka’anapali x 2 weeks. We rebooked x 3 weeks in Colorado during summer. Anger solves nothing, except an early grave. Best of luck to you.


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## enma (Jun 12, 2020)

You are upset now but these are very unusual times. I bet all of us with summer plans lost something. I had 5 weeks booked in Aruba , supposed to be there now. Got the same 60 day restriction weeks with II. Already used 3 of them for St Thomas for July. It all works out. Yes, will lose some money but people are losing lives from Covid so I am not complaining about my first world problems.


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## davidvel (Jun 12, 2020)

Must be more to the story.  Selling 4 timeshares you've  owned for 15 years because you couldn't  use 1 week due to a global pandemic seems like a bit of a stretch.  

There is a quarantine by the state during the week YOU booked.  How is MVC supposed to magically reincarnate that week? You own the week, not them.


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## bogey21 (Jun 12, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.


Your reaction is like mine.  When a Company does me wrong I vote with my feet and get as far away from them as I can...

George


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## Rodenwjr (Jun 12, 2020)

I agree with all the above responses. There has to be more to the story because this seems like irrational anger taken out on the wrong thing. EVERYBODY is affected by this pandemic.

We gave up ALL of our vacations this summer and thanks to the contributors in this forum I was able to decide how I could best utilize our options. We pulled out of Hawaii in June and Tahoe and Newport Beach in July. We made a decision based on the covic info we had and coupled it with our options. We bailed outside the 60 day mark of everything and will use it next year as work and school schedules make it difficult to do a short notice trip.

Your/(Our) maintenance fees is a lot of money down the drain....THIS year. These crazy times will pass. If you've enjoyed your vacations the past 15 years then one year of unprecedented circumstances shouldn't stop you from many more years to come.

Good luck.

P.S. II has already offered us a summer week at Newport Coast next year. Our points are waiting to be used and we still have the option to bank them for 2021..


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## SueDonJ (Jun 12, 2020)

@nokaoi9, you're not the first person to be made angry by how COVID and the timeshare companies' responses to it have affected our timeshare use/ownership, and no doubt you won't be the last. But before you run very far and very fast from what has given you enjoyment for so many years, you might want to take a breath and more than a few minutes to understand why things are where they are in the timeshare world right now. There have been so many threads!

This is a monster of a thread but it gets at pretty much every aspect: MARRIOTT / CORONAVIRUS [MERGED]

This is the latest thread that gets at your issues but it's a pretty good compilation of the eventual calm acceptance that we've all had to work toward: The $99.00 ripoff

I hope this helps you at least let go of your anger, at most hold on to what's given you joy in the past.


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## rthib (Jun 12, 2020)

Why didn't you deposit you unit at 60+ days. It is not like what was going on.
You gambled and lost.
Also, as someone once said. This is not an airport, so departure announcements are not necessary.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 12, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> Your reaction is like mine.  When a Company does me wrong I vote with my feet and get as far away from them as I can...
> 
> George


So help me, George, I am banging my head off the desk once more!

You have been in every single one of the threads where people rant and rave at Marriott while letting off steam, and in every one you eventually end up agreeing that for the most part, Marriott isn't the Great Big Monster that's taken unfair advantage of a crisis to screw their owners but rather, a company that's offering *more* compensation than they're required to offer in the face of very real inventory allocation restrictions and mandates. Then the next thread comes along and BAM!, there you are AGAIN right back to square one claiming that Marriott is 'doing people wrong.'

AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

Give it a rest! Please!


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 12, 2020)

rthib said:


> Why didn't you deposit you unit at 60+ days. It is not like what was going on.
> You gambled and lost.
> Also, as someone once said. This is not an airport, so departure announcements are not necessary.


This is my feelings as well. If you were monitoring the situation closely you had to know there was a 50/50 chance on July vacations and now I'm even wondering about August. I was monitoring the situation closely and worked with 2 MOC renters affected and gave them the options to change dates before 60 days or take a chance and take the certificate. 2 decided early to change dates and now they hopefully still have a Maui vacation later in the year to look forward to. One, however gambled and lost. He had his reasons but with him I was not open to any other recourse because I gave him options to be whole and now at least getting some value from the certificate but I'm sensing he isn't flexible so not sure how that will work out.


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## ljmiii (Jun 12, 2020)

I feel your response to this issue and sympathize. But it isn't MVC's fault. It isn't anyone's fault.

Gov. Ige explained his plan to get out of this mess - at least for Hawaii - in March. Over the next couple of weeks he went into further detail on what would have to happen before Hawaii could allow tourists without quarantine. Based on that description my guess was and is October 1st for visitors from the mainland. I held onto my July reservations until I was 62 days out because there was no real reason not to...and a miracle treatment or vaccine could have been found.

If I may make one suggestion, don't let the frustrations of the moment make the decision for you. If you no longer want to go to the places you own that is one thing. But if you do want to go back next year, and the year after that, then there is no reason to sell. Particularly into the current market.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 12, 2020)

60 days out on II is a terrible policy and @nokaoi9 has a right to be upset about the loss of $2400 MF.  IMO MVC is lacking creativity in making this right for their customers.  Perhaps they could allow a one time enrollment to points for use next year,  or remove the 60 day window (very doable since they own II).

To compare, Hilton Grand Vacations is treating their owners much better; automatically pushing 2019 banked points to 2021 (which can then be deposited for another 2 years in RCI), longer unrestricted windows to reserve etc. They are trying to find ways to smooth out inventory demand over the next few years and keep owners satisfied. They are also bringing on many new resorts in 2021/22 which will help alleviate inventory demand concerns. I don't hear complaints like this on the HGV forum so there are solutions out there.

I recognize that HGV and MVC are structured differently but they are not that different; HGVC is effectively the same as an MVC deed plus points enrollment. The biggest difference is that all HGVC deeds are required to be enrolled upon purchase. And HGV doesn't own RCI like MVC owns II. The difference is that MVC is lacking the will to develop creative solutions make this right for their owners. or perhaps they are trying to penalize MVC owners who haven't enrolled?


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## pchung6 (Jun 12, 2020)

I feel your pain. I lost few Hawaii weeks also and had to cancel our summer vacation plan completely.  Covid has changed everyone's life and even my job is on the edge now.  My question is if your reservation was July-25, why you wait until now to cancel? If you cancel before May-25, you should be fine and able to extend the points.  I understand we rather just use the summer week, but this global pandemic is really uncontrollable by anyone.  Before you move on from your 4 beautiful weeks, are you sure you really want to part away when there are still many good vacations ahead in next 10-20 years?


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## pchung6 (Jun 12, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The difference is that MVC is lacking the will to develop creative solutions make this right for their owners. or *perhaps they are trying to penalize MVC owners who haven't enrolled?*



You just nailed it.


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## bogey21 (Jun 12, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> So help me, George, I am banging my head off the desk once more!.....There you are AGAIN right back to square one claiming that Marriott is 'doing people wrong.'
> Give it a rest! Please!



The truth is the truth.  I paid approximately $13,000 each for my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club and Heritage Weeks, all pre-construction.  Almost immediately Marriott started tinkering big time with the benefits attached to my Weeks all to their benefit and all to my detriment.  I finally got pissed and sold.  Fortunately I sold before they destroyed all the value in my Weeks and I came out about whole. What would I own today if I hadn't sold?  How much would I get if  I had waited and sold today?  What are the MFs today vs when I sold my Weeks?  My point is that the prudent thing to do when a company (and I'm not only talking Marriott) starts down the path of devaluing what you bought for their benefit  run as far away from them as fast as you can...

I acknowledge that Marriott has top of the line Resorts, maybe the best out there.  My gripe is that over the years Marriott has made too many changes in their program, all to their benefit and to the detriment of their customers.   In addition they have allowed their Customer Service, which once was excellent,  to deteriorate dramatically...

George


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## frank808 (Jun 12, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th. I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date of less than 60 days from booking. To say I was furious is an understatement. How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine? While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days. I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II. On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out. It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


Pool and barbecue opens up June 15
The fitness centers open up June 19. Problem is untol quarantine is completed you ate not allowed out of your villa.

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## ljmiii (Jun 12, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 60 days out on II is a terrible policy...I recognize that HGV and MVC are structured differently but they are not that different; HGVC is effectively the same as an MVC deed plus points enrollment.... he difference is that MVC is lacking the will to develop creative solutions make this right for their owners. or perhaps they are trying to penalize MVC owners who haven't enrolled?


Goodness knows I never thought I would be defending MVC after their initial response to the COVID-19 crisis...but here goes.

60 days out on MVC and II isn't a "terrible" policy. It's less friendly to those who cancel than HGVC and RCI's 30 day policy...but does result in fewer empty rooms.

And it turns out that HGVC is actually very different than MVC.  With HGVC you are really buying points that have a certain MF and right to make a home reservation based on the 'week' that you purchase. I found out the hard way that HGVC doesn't actually keep track of weeks in relation to the points you own. Yes, you own a 'deeded week' but that's not how HGVC's reservation system works. Nor is it how HGVC's gateway into RCI works...you use points not 'your' week. Which has allowed HGVC to more easily accommodate owners through the COVID crisis.

I'm actually reasonably pleased with the solution MVC ended up with for those who made points reservations and cancelled less than 61+ days out. They got a longer booking window than normal last minute cancellations but shorter than people booking 'fresh' points.  And unlike HGVC, there is no additional fee to use cancelled 2020 MVC points in 2021.

But weeks are weeks and the time has passed - when I cancelled my Waiohai week there weren't any unbooked weeks left in 2020. And the solution - you get something but not quite as good a something as those who cancelled more than 60 days out - seems perfectly fair.

PS If you want to complain that when MVC rolled out the Destinations Program they should have tied points to every week in perpetuity (like in HGVC) and made the point values fixed (which I've been bitten by) I'm completely with you. And while we're dreaming points in should have equaled points out (like in HGVC). But those are topics argued ad infinitum back in 2010. It's MVC's game and we're just players.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 12, 2020)

True, the fact that everyone in HGVC is enrolled automatically has created this wonderful dynamic because few people actually reserve their deeded week making it a very fluid points type system. Staroptions may be similar too. Although  we own a staroption unit we have never traded it but it seems to have similar benefits to HGVC. Don't MVC enrolled weeks take on the same characteristics for short stays and upgrades based on points?

The fact you can exchange your HGVC week as points into RCI for a shorter stay vs. a fixed week to week exchange IMO is a better system, except if you are into using lockoffs to extend or rent half of your unit to pay MF in which Vistana and MVC weeks are superior.

Every system has it's pluses and minuses.


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## gln60 (Jun 12, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> So help me, George, I am banging my head off the desk once more!
> 
> You have been in every single one of the threads where people rant and rave at Marriott while letting off steam, and in every one you eventually end up agreeing that for the most part, Marriott isn't the Great Big Monster that's taken unfair advantage of a crisis to screw their owners but rather, a company that's offering *more* compensation than they're required to offer in the face of very real inventory allocation restrictions and mandates. Then the next thread comes along and BAM!, there you are AGAIN right back to square one claiming that Marriott is 'doing people wrong.'
> 
> ...


Please stop judging posters that you don’t agree with....being a bully doesn’t help


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## davidvel (Jun 12, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Please stop judging posters that you don’t agree with....being a bully doesn’t help


If you think Sue is a bully, well...


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## Dean (Jun 12, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th.  I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date  of less than 60 days from booking.  To say I was furious is an understatement.  How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.  I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II.  On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out.  It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


I understand being upset at losing the week but what some don't realize is they took risks and have responsibilities.  It's EXACTLY like if you owned a condo and couldn't go or the amenities were limited.  MVC has done a lot, IMO, probably more than they should have.  And the reality is that it's mostly on the backs of the other members in terms of reduced future availability likely for several years.  That they were even able to get II to give the added flexibility is interesting unto itself and a pretty big help IMO even though I realize the weeks will be challenging to get good use out of.  


bogey21 said:


> The truth is the truth.  I paid approximately $13,000 each for my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club and Heritage Weeks, all pre-construction.  Almost immediately Marriott started tinkering big time with the benefits attached to my Weeks all to their benefit and all to my detriment.  I finally got pissed and sold.  Fortunately I sold before they destroyed all the value in my Weeks and I came out about whole. What would I own today if I hadn't sold?  How much would I get if  I had waited and sold today?  What are the MFs today vs when I sold my Weeks?  My point is that the prudent thing to do when a company (and I'm not only talking Marriott) starts down the path of devaluing what you bought for their benefit  run as far away from them as fast as you can...
> 
> I acknowledge that Marriott has top of the line Resorts, maybe the best out there.  My gripe is that over the years Marriott has made too many changes in their program, all to their benefit and to the detriment of their customers.   In addition they have allowed their Customer Service, which once was excellent,  to deteriorate dramatically...
> 
> George


What did they remove that was in the POS and/or contractual.


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## Ken555 (Jun 12, 2020)

Dean said:


> I understand being upset at losing the week but what some don't realize is they took risks and have responsibilities. It's EXACTLY like if you owned a condo and couldn't go or the amenities were limited.



Bingo. 

Sadly, I’m sure this won’t be the last thread on this topic.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 12, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> To compare, Hilton Grand Vacations is treating their owners much better; automatically pushing 2019 banked points to 2021 (which can then be deposited for another 2 years in RCI), longer unrestricted windows to reserve etc. They are trying to find ways to smooth out inventory demand over the next few years and keep owners satisfied. They are also bringing on many new resorts in 2021/22 which will help alleviate inventory demand concerns. I don't hear complaints like this on the HGV forum so there are solutions out there.
> 
> I recognize that HGV and MVC are structured differently but they are not that different; HGVC is effectively the same as an MVC deed plus points enrollment. The biggest difference is that all HGVC deeds are required to be enrolled upon purchase. And HGV doesn't own RCI like MVC owns II. The difference is that MVC is lacking the will to develop creative solutions make this right for their owners. or perhaps they are trying to penalize MVC owners who haven't enrolled?



I think it is too early to say whether the HGVC approach or the MVC approach is the best for owners. For now, it certainly would seem that HGVC is being more flexible and accommodating because they are offering more flexibility into 2021 and beyond. But their approach has the potential to create supply/demand mismatches in 2021 and maybe even 2022. By limiting the re-booking window MVC is taking the pain now rather than kicking the can down the road. If it becomes very difficult to book Club reservations in 2021 but MVC is more normalized will you still feel the HGVC approach is better? Only time will tell.

I also think you may have nailed it and identified one reason that HGVC may feel they can be more accommodating right now - all the new inventory they have in the pipeline - new Waikiki, Big Island Ocean Tower, Cabo, Charleston, the new NYC properties, new Myrtle Beach, etc. That's a lot of unsold weeks controlled by HGVC which gives them more flexibility in how they manage inventory in 2021 than MVC might have with less new stuff in the pipeline.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 12, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> I also think you may have nailed it and identified one reason that HGVC may feel they can be more accommodating right now - all the new inventory they have in the pipeline - new Waikiki, Big Island Ocean Tower, Cabo, Charleston, the new NYC properties, new Myrtle Beach, etc. That's a lot of unsold weeks controlled by HGVC which gives them more flexibility in how they manage inventory in 2021 than MVC might have with less new stuff in the pipeline.



Agree the new properties play into their hand. Not only will these burn more points, they potentially get another bite of the apple by offering presentations at the new property to their base.


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## Ken555 (Jun 12, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agree the new properties play into their hand. Not only will these burn more points, they potentially get another bite of the apple by offering presentations at the new property to their base.



In this scenario, it’s not too far to suggest they would also be perceived as a better run company by prospects (and owners) when compared to MVC.


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## bogey21 (Jun 13, 2020)

Dean said:


> What did they remove that was in the POS and/or contractual.



The answer to your question is nothing...

I started with Marriott long before many of you ever knew they existed.  I started with them when they opened their 2nd restaurant, a Hot Shoppe   in Philadelphia sometime in the late 40s or early 50s long before they got into the hotel or TS business.  As they expanded I expanded with them.  During my entire business career I stayed almost exclusively in Marriott hotels.  When they entered the TS business I jumped on board and bought sight unseen and on trust the first TS they built, a pre-construction Sabal Palms Week.  I later bought a Monarch Week resale because I wanted to own a Week at their entry into the TS business.  You don't have to agree with me but IMO  about the time they contemplated spinning off the TS Business the desire for profit took over at the expense of ethics and Customer Service...

When I bought my Sabal Palms Week they showed me how I could exchange one of my Weeks for Points which would get me a plane ticket, a car rental and a room at one of their hotels.  Yes, all three for one Week.  They touted their low commissions (20%) for renting and/or selling Weeks.  They promised to  (and for a number of years did) control the price of resales.  They encouraged me to join RCI then dumped them for money and control.  Were these things contractual?  No, but most were in materials they gave me.  I trusted the Bill Marriott who put Bibles and/or Books of Mormon in every hotel room.  Back then Marriott was honorable.   They lived up to what they said they would do and Customer Service bent over backwards to help...

You all may say that was then and the world is different today and you are right.  But I didn't have to like it and when I had enough of their reneging and their uncaring Customer Service I decided to stop doing business with them...

George


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@Ken555  Could just be dumb luck in where they are in their growth cycle. HGVC must expand to compete with MVC and there are few acquisition options so they are either building or converting hotels. MVC is still absorbing ILG.


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## Ken555 (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Ken555 Could just be dumb luck in where they are in their growth cycle. HGVC must expand to compete with MVC and there are few acquisition options so they are either building or converting hotels. MVC is still absorbing ILG.



Yup. Success is achieved by many factors, and dumb luck is certainly one of them.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> The answer to your question is nothing...
> 
> I started with Marriott long before many of you ever knew they existed.  I started with them when they opened their 2nd restaurant, a Hot Shoppe   in Philadelphia sometime in the late 40s or early 50s long before they got into the hotel or TS business.  As they expanded I expanded with them.  During my entire business career I stayed almost exclusively in Marriott hotels.  When they entered the TS business I jumped on board and bought sight unseen and on trust the first TS they built, a pre-construction Sabal Palms Week.  I later bought a Monarch Week resale because I wanted to own a Week at their entry into the TS business.  You don't have to agree with me but IMO some time about the time they contemplated spinning off the TS Business the desire for profit took over at the expense of ethics and Customer Service...
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with things have changed and they may have changed in a way that doesn't fit your needs or wants a this time.  Thus if may be that exit was the best for you no matter the rest.  But as you agree, they removed nothing that was not contractual thus they did nothing inappropriate.  Now we all know that sales can be a black hole and isn't their shining moment, it isn't with any timeshare include DVC which has likely been the most ethical over the past 30 years.  Things have changed in business and life over the last 40 years, since you first bought back in the early 80's.  IMO the buyer beware is still applicable even though many don't want to take personal responsibility any more, one needs to understand what they're buying and the commitments they've made.  I made the analogy of buying a condo and it is 100% you bought 3 condo's and hired Marriott to management them, nothing more when you boil it down.  Even had MVC simply stood by their normal cancelation policies (as they probably should have), which would have been far more negative, I would feel the same.  That said, I don't understand the venom in the situation you've laid out.  IMO, if one understands what they've committed to, the risks, the rules and the current situation; it's difficult to be upset with MVC on these issues.  Now there may be a situation where mistakes were made, like the canceled request first discussed recently, where mistakes may have been made and that's a different matter.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 13, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> The truth is the truth.  I paid approximately $13,000 each for my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club and Heritage Weeks, all pre-construction.  Almost immediately Marriott started tinkering big time with the benefits attached to my Weeks all to their benefit and all to my detriment.  I finally got pissed and sold.  Fortunately I sold before they destroyed all the value in my Weeks and I came out about whole. What would I own today if I hadn't sold?  How much would I get if  I had waited and sold today?  What are the MFs today vs when I sold my Weeks?  My point is that the prudent thing to do when a company (and I'm not only talking Marriott) starts down the path of devaluing what you bought for their benefit  run as far away from them as fast as you can...
> 
> I acknowledge that Marriott has top of the line Resorts, maybe the best out there.  My gripe is that over the years Marriott has made too many changes in their program, all to their benefit and to the detriment of their customers.   In addition they have allowed their Customer Service, which once was excellent,  to deteriorate dramatically...
> 
> George



There's no fault to be found in anything you've said here - and over the years of seeing you post about it I haven't criticized you for leaving your Marriott ownership behind when you no longer trusted them as you once did. It's when you level undeserved criticism that I question you, and it's when that undeserved criticism is repeated that I find myself banging my head on the desk!

What you've said here has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that MVW has responded to this very difficult COVID situation by trying to offer impacted owners MORE than what they're legally-required to offer, which even you eventually concede after first coming in criticizing them in all these threads about COVID cancelations. Considering that so many owners are justifiably angry/frustrated/sad when they realize their confirmed reservations have vanished into thin air, I question why/how you think it helps to repeatedly foster that negativity when you know that it can be somewhat appeased _and when you already know that Marriott is going above and beyond trying to mitigate losses over which they have no control?!_


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## SueDonJ (Jun 13, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Please stop judging posters that you don’t agree with....being a bully doesn’t help



I'm honestly sorry that I leave you with that impression; it's not intended.


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## Quadmaniac (Jun 13, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.



How in good faith can they close the resort when not everyone is coming from the mainland ? Would it be equally fair if they closed but people who may be there for 5-6 weeks can't use the resort, may have isolated, and now have to leave as not everyone has access ? Unfortunately it doesn't work out that way either. 

I agree with everyone else that this is something that you had to make a decision at the 60 day mark. It's not Marriott's fault at all. All businesses want to stay open if they can as it means a lot of jobs and people's livelihood. They must be able to accommodate those that are able to come to the resort, like ones that are there for multiple weeks and / or live there. It would not be fair to them.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Dean said:


> I understand being upset at losing the week but what some don't realize is they took risks and have responsibilities.  It's EXACTLY like if you owned a condo and couldn't go or the amenities were limited.  MVC has done a lot, IMO, probably more than they should have.  And the reality is that it's mostly on the backs of the other members in terms of reduced future availability likely for several years.  That they were even able to get II to give the added flexibility is interesting unto itself and a pretty big help IMO even though I realize the weeks will be challenging to get good use out of.
> What did they remove that was in the POS and/or contractual.



Yes and no. No because it is a "vacation club" with restrictions, reservation rules and limitations that a pure condo doesn't have.  For example, if you sell your condo there is no ROFR for the original developer. Certainly doesn't appreciate like a full year condo either. And there is no subjective "60 day mark for reservations" as to whether you want to use a full ownership condo.

If it were a pure condo you could quarantine for the 2 weeks and have many weeks after to use. You do not have that usage right with a timeshare. 

This is no different than airlines and hotels removing change fees even though they weren't contractually required to do so with Covid. Why? Because it was the right thing to do to maintain good customer relations. IMO MVC is trying to get out of this on the cheap and are not serving their owners well by such policies.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Yes and no. No because it is a "vacation club" with restrictions, reservation rules and limitations that a pure condo doesn't have.  For example, if you sell your condo there is no ROFR for the original developer. There are other differences which could argue that it is a different animal.
> 
> If it were a pure condo you could quarantine for the 2 weeks and have many weeks after to use. You do not have that usage right with a timeshare.


That's not really true.  Some properties do have ROFR and many have other rules like HOA rules AND fees.  Now you could chose to avoid those but you could have done the same with the timeshares.  Don't let the name vacation club fool you, it's not a club in the sense you pay a fee and you can chose to cancel like AAA, it's just another work for timeshare in this situation.  Certainly there are some differences between the use of a single week or fractional and a fully owned condo.  Maybe a condo you rent out most of the time and you had only planned to use a week would be a slightly more refined analogy.  I get there are some differences between a timeshare and a condo but in the vein we're discussing it, there really aren't.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@Dean, I see your points however will agree to disagree on the fairness of this. A timeshare vacation club is not the same as a full ownership condo. MVC has the means through II rules and points programs to make this right for their customers. Condos do not. MVC is choosing the cheap way out.

Why didn't MVC proactively notify their owners more than 60 days out of this possibility? Why is this only the fault of the owner?

IMO not a good strategy if they intend to market and upsell to their base in the future which is a core tenet of their public plans. This will be an expensive mistake; penny-wise $ foolish.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is no different than airlines and hotels removing change fees even though they weren't contractually required to do so with Covid. Why? Because it was the right thing to do to maintain good customer relations. IMO MVC is trying to get out of this on the cheap and are not serving their owners well by such policies.


First let me say that my thoughts are directed as situations and principles not at people, nothing is intended as personal but it is an honest portrayal of how I feel.

IMO there are a LOT more differences in this comparison than between a Condo and timeshare.  Even comparing one timeshare to another is interesting because they are all different.  Don't think for a second the flexibility for airlines or other companies was mainly due to benevolence not should it have been.  But so say they all did more than they had to but one did more or less than another and use that as a judgement tool of right or wrong is inappropriate, IMO.  


CalGalTraveler said:


> @Dean, I also see your points however will agree to disagree on the fairness of this. A timeshare vacation club is not the same as a full ownership condo. MVC has the means through II rules and points programs to make this right for their customers. Condos do not.
> 
> MVC is choosing the cheap way out. Why didn't they proactively notify their owners more than 60 days out of this possibility? Why is this only the fault of the owner?
> 
> IMO not a good strategy if they intend to market and upsell to their base in the future which is a core tenet of their public plans. This will be an expensive mistake; penny-wise $ foolish.


One timeshare is not the same as another, even within MVC, there are major differences based on the resort, enrollment, trust points, etc.  II has their own rules which MVC must adhere to.  II gave them additional flexibility which was great but not perfect.  IMO MVC did more than they should have and it will affect all the owners for years to come.  Whether it hurts sales is something they have to judge but the "club" is not theirs, it's our and they manage it for us.  I think back to the last 2 economic downturns where fees kept going up because there are costs of management, same for my condo HOA fees.  We saw similar thread's then, my guess is there is some overlap in those posters as well.  We'll certainly have to agree to disagree but IMO this speaks more about us than about MVC.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ... Why didn't MVC proactively notify their owners more than 60 days out of this possibility? Why is this only the fault of the owner? ...



I don't see it as either Marriott or the owners being at fault.

But Marriott hasn't kept owners in the dark. At each step as they had to deal just like we did with various local/state/federal restrictions, they used the owners' website and email to notify owners. Sure, sometimes what they put out what was confusing - no surprise there considering that practically every single agency that's involved has put out confusing info. The latest cancellation info on owners.marriottvacationclub.com has been consistent for weeks now, it's a bright red can't-miss notice as soon as you sign in with links (which may require sign-in from here) : *COVID-19 Updates: Learn about our **next level of clean** and our **current cancellation policies**.*


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## clifffaith (Jun 13, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm honestly sorry that I leave you with that impression; it's not intended.



I had the "bully" impression too, and thought your moderator duties these last few months had pushed you over the edge!


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @DeanMVC has the means through II rules and points programs to make this right for their customers.



I'd love to hear how then. You must know more than the other Marriott owners, who instead of having your view, are actually very very concerned about the ability to make future reservations given what they have already done! Please give detailed steps on exactly how they could have done this. And don't say allow everyone to push stuff out a year or two. There is *no way that can possibly work *in MVCI, there would be zero availability, plain and simple. You'd not only anger the subset of people affected (not everyone had reservations during this time), but you'd also anger those who didn't have anything during this time and now cannot use what they own. 

Saying things like telling people more than 60 days out, telling them what? What their cancellation policies are that everyone should already know? What? They have kept us informed afaiak, all along the process, as good as they could. It changed all the time, yes, as more information became available, etc. 

I am sorry people don't understand how it works. That's mostly on them. But I do feel bad for them. They certainly did not ask for the pandemic any more than Marriott did. 

But I want to hear detailed steps and accommodations that MVCI could have made, please. Maybe you're right, don't know without hearing them. I've not heard basically any yet in any discussion, and I've read most all of them including the massive thread. I've seen impossible suggestions by the dozen, sure. But that's from those who don't understand how it works.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> I'd love to hear how then. You must know more than the other Marriott owners, who instead of having your view, are actually very very concerned about the ability to make future reservations given what they have already done! Please give detailed steps on exactly how they could have done this. And don't say allow everyone to push stuff out a year or two. There is *no way that can possibly work *in MVCI, there would be zero availability, plain and simple. You'd not only anger the subset of people affected (not everyone had reservations during this time), but you'd also anger those who didn't have anything during this time and now cannot use what they own.
> 
> Saying things like telling people more than 60 days out, telling them what? What their cancellation policies are that everyone should already know? What? They have kept us informed afaiak, all along the process, as good as they could. It changed all the time, yes, as more information became available, etc.
> 
> ...


Steve I think it's a lot more simple than that.  All they had to do to make it right was follow their rules.  Now I'm glad they were able to work out something that helped many of us affected to a degree and wasn't too dramatic an effect on the system long term.  But the reality is the effect or how they did it was irrelevant as to their appropriateness as long as they fulfilled their contractual obligation.  On the other side anything less than refunding their fees and giving them a free week with guaranteed availability likely wouldn't be enough for some.  I don't buy the idea that companies are inherently bad and must be punished.  I've seen too many inappropriate and dishonest timeshare owners to believe it's the good (members) vs the bad (MVC).  Free full use weeks, reimbursement of fees and guaranteed availability simply aren't workable solutions singly or collectively and anyone would be unreasonable and unrealistic to think even one of them should happen.


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## amy241 (Jun 13, 2020)

I also feel your pain. We bought a week at Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club in 2019 with usage to start in 2020. We paid $10,500 on the ocean view unit and $2500 in MFs in January 2020. We had a 37 day trip planned to Hawaii departing April 24th and returning May 30th. We were holding first class airfare on Hawaiian Air from the east coast that cost a king’s ransom as well as Hawaiian Air inter island hops. We had to cancel as a result of the pandemic. We are all in for $13,000 at this point and didn’t get to use a single day there in 2020. Because I am new to time sharing and Interval International (and throw in confusing pandemic rules), I did not cancel until about 58 days prior to check in because I simply didn’t know any better. I got a lousy flex deposit week that has little usefulness IMHO and I am out the time and MFs.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@Steve Fatula  You are assuming a zero sum game when it comes to inventory. MVC is huge has the resources and options to make this work. Eg eliminating the 60 day horizon for II (remember II is much more than MVC) opening up MVC inventory for these owners, offering Bonvoy points or arranging for excess hotel inventory, renting inventory from other timeshares. DP owners or vacation home rentals, or acquiring new property or hotel floor conversion like HGVC among a few ways to add more inventory  They need to get creative.

Not all MVC owners are like TUGers and know the nuances of every rule such as 60 days.Besides a lot changed in the 60 days prior to the reservation outside the control of the OP. Severely limited  use with few options to get full value out of the MF which was paid in good faith for full use of the facility is a lazy answer.

Even though the quarantine is out of their control, this is no different than the airlines and hotels refunding non-refundable reservations due to Covid. Or do you think they should not have done that either? MVC need to get creative and take care of their owners or they will lose those owners future revevue. If the shoe was on the other foot you might view this otherwise.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula  You are assuming a zero sum game when it comes to inventory. MVC is huge has the resources and options to make this work. Eg eliminating the 60 day rule for II (remember II is much more than MVC) opening up MVC inventory for these owners, offering Bonvoy points or excess hotel inventory, renting inventory from II timeshares. DP owners or vacation home rentals, or acquiring new property or hotel floor conversion like HGVC among a few ways to add more inventory  They need to get creative.
> 
> Not all MVC owners are like TUGers and know the nuances of every rule such as 60 days.Besides a lot changed in the 60 days prior to the reservation outside the control of the OP. Severely limited  use with few options to get full value out of the MF which was paid in good faith for full use of the facility is a lazy answer. They need to get creative. If the shoe was on the other foot you might view this otherwise.


From an inventory standpoint it is a zero sum situation.  Bonvoy is a separate company and additional points there is simply dollars from MVC or the members.  While there may be an ownership interest for II, II is a separate company and must stand on their own thus there is only so much that can be done there.  Ultimately what you're suggesting is that MVC donate to the cause from their pocket and/or from the membership as a whole's pocket.  IMO the effect on a given owner, myself or otherwise, is not germane to the discussion, to be honest.  To me this is an intellectual and philosophical discussion of appropriateness and appropriateness.


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## bnoble (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> do you think they should not have done that either?


I did not expect any airline to do more than their Contract of Carriage specified. That some did more was a pleasant surprise, but I would not have begrudged them a different decision.

On the other hand, airlines that tried to do less than the CoC specified (by, for example, attempting to redefine what a "substantial change" was post-facto) were absolutely in the wrong.

Likewise, I did not expect e.g. Wyndham to do anything more than the program rules specified, and I canceled my 2020 reservations and deposited those points forward before my late March deadline to do so. I'm not angry that they announced an extension for doing so later.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Dean said:


> From an inventory standpoint it is a zero sum situation.  Bonvoy is a separate company and additional points there is simply dollars from MVC or the members.  While there may be an ownership interest for II, II is a separate company and must stand on their own thus there is only so much that can be done there.  Ultimately what you're suggesting is that MVC donate to the cause from their pocket and/or from the membership as a whole's pocket.  IMO the effect on a given owner, myself or otherwise, is not germane to the discussion, to be honest.  To me this is an intellectual and philosophical discussion of appropriateness and appropriateness.


It's a cost of doing business. In the scheme of things, Hawaiian owners affected by this is most likely a rounding error for MVC.

MVC owns II and can do whatever they want.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It's a cost of doing business.
> 
> MVC owns II and can do whatever they want.


I don't see it that way but I do see the risk of owning timeshares.  They could donate the cash to cover all expenses but that would be an inappropriate and unreasonable expectation but no more so than asking they do more than the rules in place.  In addition anything they did with II would be on the backs of the rest of the II membership.  I'm reminded of when DVC took away the valet parking.  That was the absolute correct decision at the time but there were those that felt they should continue to pay for it out of their pocket or the rest of the membership, entitlement thinking at it's finest.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

In fact they could have offered each affected owner a presentation package with a stay for free. Different inventory and might have gotten another bite at the apple. Lack of creativity...


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## Quadmaniac (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula  You are assuming a zero sum game when it comes to inventory. MVC is huge has the resources and options to make this work. Eg eliminating the 60 day horizon for II (remember II is much more than MVC) opening up MVC inventory for these owners, offering Bonvoy points or arranging for excess hotel inventory, renting inventory from other timeshares. DP owners or vacation home rentals, or acquiring new property or hotel floor conversion like HGVC among a few ways to add more inventory  They need to get creative.
> 
> Not all MVC owners are like TUGers and know the nuances of every rule such as 60 days.Besides a lot changed in the 60 days prior to the reservation outside the control of the OP. Severely limited  use with few options to get full value out of the MF which was paid in good faith for full use of the facility is a lazy answer.
> 
> Even though the quarantine is out of their control, this is no different than the airlines and hotels refunding non-refundable reservations due to Covid. Or do you think they should not have done that either? MVC need to get creative and take care of their owners or they will lose those owners future revevue. If the shoe was on the other foot you might view this otherwise.



IMHO I don't see why this is a MVC or II problem where they need to do any of this. These are the terms of service and if they did not live up to the terms, then we have something to complain about. They have no control over the pandemic or any rules implemented in the pandemic in a region.

II has relaxed their cancellation rules already which I think is nice to for them to offer, but also remember that it is a loss to them when they get something short notice. They might not be able to get a trading fee for it as it is last minute and something limited people can use. They're in the business of making money by having people take trades for a fee, when the likelihood is lower, it has lower value to them. 

I'm sorry but everyone is responsible for themselves in reading and understanding the rules of MVC and II if they are going to part of it so each party knows their responsibilities and the rules. That's why they're there in the first place so it is out in the open. Yes many things can change 60 days out, but that is the risk the timeshare owner has to decide, the onus is not on the company.

This is the thing as well, they won't lose future revenue because the unit was already sold and the payment of MF is in ongoing year after year. Even if the OP sells it, someone has to buy it and assume the year MF so they will not suffer any loss.


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## csalter2 (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula  You are assuming a zero sum game when it comes to inventory. MVC is huge has the resources and options to make this work. Eg eliminating the 60 day horizon for II (remember II is much more than MVC) opening up MVC inventory for these owners, offering Bonvoy points or arranging for excess hotel inventory, renting inventory from other timeshares. DP owners or vacation home rentals, or acquiring new property or hotel floor conversion like HGVC among a few ways to add more inventory  They need to get creative.
> 
> Not all MVC owners are like TUGers and know the nuances of every rule such as 60 days.Besides a lot changed in the 60 days prior to the reservation outside the control of the OP. Severely limited  use with few options to get full value out of the MF which was paid in good faith for full use of the facility is a lazy answer.
> 
> Even though the quarantine is out of their control, this is no different than the airlines and hotels refunding non-refundable reservations due to Covid. Or do you think they should not have done that either? MVC need to get creative and take care of their owners or they will lose those owners future revevue. If the shoe was on the other foot you might view this otherwise.



‘The shoe was on the foot for all of us who did have reservations or not. If people don’t know it’s partly their fault. I say partly because some neglect to learn the rules or could have canceled before the 60 day limit. Others did not have a choice because states shut down abruptly during some people’s weeks within the 60 day limit.  Those things were beyond control. However, if a hurricane suddenly came through and there were damages so severe or you couldn’t get to your vacation resort, you’d be in the same situation, out of vacation and out of your money and/or airfare. I had weeks in June that I cancelled and was miraculously able to rebook them for July. I was watched the news anxiously trying to determine if I should go or not. I cancelled each time at the 60 day mark. I had points it was no sweat. I have already booked for next June/July at 13 months out. I didn’t lose anything because I am familiar with the rules, not because I’m a TUG member, but because I read the rules and searched for information. If I was at 60 days which I did consider gambling and going that route, I would have taken the other route with limitations. The fact that they offered something as opposed to nothing is what is important.

Everyone is different, you’re happy with what HGVC has offered as an alternative, however believe me, there are some people in HGVC who are not happy. I guarantee that.


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## Wei339 (Jun 13, 2020)

amy241 said:


> I also feel your pain. We bought a week at Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club in 2019 with usage to start in 2020. We paid $10,500 on the ocean view unit and $2500 in MFs in January 2020. We had a 37 day trip planned to Hawaii departing April 24th and returning May 30th. We were holding first class airfare on Hawaiian Air from the east coast that cost a king’s ransom as well as Hawaiian Air inter island hops. We had to cancel as a result of the pandemic. We are all in for $13,000 at this point and didn’t get to use a single day there in 2020. Because I am new to time sharing and Interval International (and throw in confusing pandemic rules), I did not cancel until about 58 days prior to check in because I simply didn’t know any better. I got a lousy flex deposit week that has little usefulness IMHO and I am out the time and MFs.


I am sorry that you were not aware of the 60 day cancellation which would have allowed you to book a later reservation.  I cancelled my June 6 reservation prior to 60 days and rebooked for December.  This new date is no guarantee if the covid-19 situation does not improve since there is talk of a second wave in October.  You are fortunate that the FTA ensures the airlines give you a full refund in the case of a cancellation.  In Canada, we were only given vouchers.  Since you are new to MVC, I would follow this forum and ask questions when in doubt.  The people are very knowledgeable and helpful.
If this is any consolation, I purchased my ocean view week for $45,000 US in 2004.  So you are far ahead of the game and will certainly get your money's worth in future years.  I can assure you that your $12,500 purchase will certainly bring immense enjoyment to you in the future.  IMHO, Ko Olina is a great MVC timeshare.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In fact they could have offered each affected owner a presentation package with a stay for free. Different inventory and might have gotten another bite at the apple. Lack of creativity...


They could have among lots of other choices.  What they did was FAR more than they were legally or ethically obligated to do albeit much will be on the backs of the owners.  I guess what I don't understand is why they should donate millions of dollars, maybe even more, beyond what they're doing already when they are not obligated to do so.  If they felt it would have helped with sales later they certainly could have made that choice but it was their choice to make.  But why be upset at them because they didn't, I understand being bummed at one's losses.  What makes one special to deserve FAR more than they are contractually obligated for when one knew or should have know the risks they were/are taking.

When one makes a reservation the information is there when done online and is available as it is on the website.  Normally they also go over it when you call and make reservations.


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## Fairwinds (Jun 13, 2020)

My 2 cents. If you own and live in a condo and it is rendered uninhabitable by no fault of the management company or HOA are they responsible for your lodging. Why is Marriott responsible because government agencies restrict travel? Any little thing they do is above and beyond what is required. If a unit sits unoccupied for weeks or months and they provide compensation to owners someone down the line pays. Who is that?


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Well you seem to be happy with MVCs solution. So I wish you well.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula  You are assuming a zero sum game when it comes to inventory. MVC is huge has the resources and options to make this work. Eg eliminating the 60 day horizon for II (remember II is much more than MVC) opening up MVC inventory for these owners, offering Bonvoy points or arranging for excess hotel inventory, renting inventory from other timeshares. DP owners or vacation home rentals, or acquiring new property or hotel floor conversion like HGVC among a few ways to add more inventory  They need to get creative.season



Totally disagree. Most all of the MVCI resorts are always 100% occupied in a normal year during high season, assuming you use Marriott at all. Do you even own? So, exactly how would anyone get into those resorts if they had future use? When I go to Palm Desert in Feb every year, it's 100% full. Same for Hilton Head, Hawaii, etc. during their high season. So, tell me where the inventory would come from, where? Many people can only travel during kids off of school season. So, someone who lost their Palm Desert week this year should be able to use it next year, along with next years weeks and block me out? No way that would work, you'd anger far more than you would appease. Someone who lost Hilton Head with kids should be able to use 2 weeks next year in summer!? Give me a break, so many people would be upset when they own a week and couldn't even use their 2021 week!

60 days was a great solution if they wanted to try to appease. It means, people who own or have normal un-cancelled weeks can get there first. Those who had cancel issues get whatever is left. So, the people who did everything correctly or did not even have any use during pandemic months are not punished next year for those who lost their weeks through either negligence, or in many cases, no fault of their own just bad luck. So, you get something out of it but you get second choice. I see nothing wrong with that. It keeps everyone with unrestricted weeks whole. But they did more than 60 days in some cases, and that was definitely the wrong thing to do in my eyes.

You simply need to understand how it works better. There is no way I would agree to causing people who have their normal weeks and unrestricted cancels to lose out to people who got cancelled due to the pandemic, no way. That is not fair at all.

Many of the long time owners already have concerns with what has been done, as Dean said, I kind of wish they would have help fast to the official policies as with what has been done, there are going to be impacts for possibly a few years. And that is NOT fair. There's been a few threads about this, @davidvel @JIMinNC obviously Dean here and several other long timers who have gone through other one time events have commented on the same.
,
Why do you say if the shoe was on the other foot, I might view it differently? Are you assuming I lost nothing, like my planned Hawaii trip in April? Along with other lost trips? I am not one of those who does situational ethics. It does not matter if I am affected or not, the right thing remains the right thing. And the right thing was to hold fast to the rules, which they did not. They attempted to appease some folks. Perhaps that will turn out to not be as bad as we believe, but unrestricted would be a total massive disaster for all.

And while MVCI may own II, think about what they are doing there. II works by exchanging your week for another resorts weeks. So, non MVCI resorts, I can exchange there for a lost Marriott week. And what do they get in return? Nothing of course. I wouldn't call that doing nothing.

You seem to think most Marriotts have all this inventory. For guys like me who do off season a lot, there is indeed some, and, the 120 or 60 day limits will allow that to be used up to the limits of inventory. I suspect we'll be seeing 100% occupancy for more than high season in even the lesser used resorts. And will the non MVCI owners be happy with an II that now essentially blocks off Marriott inventory to them for the next year or two (de facto since there won't be any inventory)? I wouldn't be if I was one of those companies.

I would love for there to be a great solution to all that. Would love it. I HATE seeing people lose vacations.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

.

Steve;  What you say is true, however there is "ghost inventory" each year, in each resort, which goes unclaimed.  Marriott does not talk about this as they likely use this unclaimed inventory for their own financial benefit.

Ghost inventory is a result of people forgetting to reserve, deaths, no shows, and inventory in the process of transfer or estate settlement.

Each resort has this inventory, but no one really knows what the exact numbers are, or for the exact reasons, but it does exist.  Very likely not enough to handle requests for the following year due to a pandemic.



.


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## Ken555 (Jun 13, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> And while MVCI may own II, think about what they are doing there. II works by exchanging your week for another resorts weeks. So, non MVCI resorts, I can exchange there for a lost Marriott week. And what do they get in return? Nothing of course. I wouldn't call that doing nothing.



I don’t own Marriott, but for Vistana when we use II we pay an exchange fee to II. Don’t you also pay II when exchanging a Marriott week?

Also, in the last year or two II has been giving ACs out like candy. So there are weeks available somewhere. There could have been creative solutions had they wanted to for those who were directly impacted by the <60 day cancel issue.

I agree with you completely, though, that the policy is clear. I canceled my Vistana booked weeks in time so I could bank the options without issue (and I paid the price to bank without complaint), knowing that it’s also likely to impact availability when I want to redeem them. 

It’s not an easy issue to resolve, and following the policies that we agreed to upon purchase is the fairest solution of all. Anything beyond the HOA and club policies is a gift.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Totally disagree. Most all of the MVCI resorts are always 100% occupied in a normal year during high season, assuming you use Marriott at all. Do you even own? So, exactly how would anyone get into those resorts if they had future use? When I go to Palm Desert in Feb every year, it's 100% full. Same for Hilton Head, Hawaii, etc. during their high season. So, tell me where the inventory would come from, where? Many people can only travel during kids off of school season. So, someone who lost their Palm Desert week this year should be able to use it next year, along with next years weeks and block me out? No way that would work, you'd anger far more than you would appease. Someone who lost Hilton Head with kids should be able to use 2 weeks next year in summer!? Give me a break, so many people would be upset when they own a week and couldn't even use their 2021 week!
> 
> 60 days was a great solution if they wanted to try to appease. It means, people who own or have normal un-cancelled weeks can get there first. Those who had cancel issues get whatever is left. So, the people who did everything correctly or did not even have any use during pandemic months are not punished next year for those who lost their weeks through either negligence, or in many cases, no fault of their own just bad luck. So, you get something out of it but you get second choice. I see nothing wrong with that. It keeps everyone with unrestricted weeks whole. But they did more than 60 days in some cases, and that was definitely the wrong thing to do in my eyes.
> 
> ...



What you are describing here is the exact definition of zero-sum game.

My point is that MVC has plenty of levers at their control to avoid a zero-sum game. MVC now owns II so can change rules. They can do whatever they want. MVC owns separate inventory that they rent or use for promotional packages or received from ROFR. They have new Vistana resorts at Nanea and Kauai which are not sold out. They could temporarily lease more space from other timeshares...many options so no need to feel sorry for them.

To compare, I have 4 years to use my 2019 HGV banked points (2yrs HGV, 2 yrs RCI in which I can trade back into HGVC or other.) That's plenty of cushion to absorb with little impact to owners.


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## amy241 (Jun 13, 2020)

Thank you for your kind remarks.  We hope that we will be able to use it at some point in the future.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What you are describing here is the exact definition of zero-sum game.
> 
> My point is that MVC has plenty of levers at their control to avoid a zero-sum game. MVC owns II so can change rules or not deposit inventory.  They can do whatever they want. MVC owns separate inventory that they rent or use for promotional packages or received from ROFR.
> 
> To compare, I have 4 years to use my 2019 HGV banked points. That's plenty of cushion to absorb with little impact to owners.



I couldn't care less about HGVC or any other non Marriott, this is the Marriott section. They are all setup differently, have different inventory levels, etc. Honestly, tired about hearing all about non MVCI properties here. The OP was not asking about HGVC. 

Yes, MVCI could change rules (which is rarely fair). However, you must have missed my point about non MVCI II affiliated resorts. They will now be in an II that no longer offers MVCI inventory for the new few years, that's cheating them. It might behoove them to now look for other exchange companies as they will likely be cheated out of a lot of trades, maybe they can do better in RCi or others. So, MVCI (II) has a lot to lose there. They have to keep II viable for non MVCI resorts else they have even bigger problems. 

Have you estimated the number of lost weeks MVCI owners have incurred (so far)? I think the number would astound you. And yes, what I described is a zero sum game because it is! 

MVCI does own separate inventory, and, all of that will likely be used up given what they have already done. MVCI has a *lot* of owners. As I said, all the decent resorts are already always 100% occupied (other than no shows, last second cancels) in normal years. There simply isn't much of anything they can do at those resorts during high seasons. Other companies may have not sold all their weeks, don't know. 

For me, I'd much rather keep owners who have followed all the rules viable and things work as normal, and, MVCI remain in business and not layoff (er furlough) even more people. At least they kept their health benefits. Killing MVCI does not help me or any other owner. 

Reading my original resorts annual report gave a lot of insight in the pandemic world as to what is going on within MVCI. Also, staying last week in Branson gave me more insight. Things are not good from my point of view. 

I do appreciate your nice world view that companies should go out of their way to help their customers. In general, I kind of agree to a point. The only difference is I believe MVCI has done as much as they could do, and are risking some serious future pushback once this all plays out as far as more lost weeks due to what they have already done, as little as that may seem to you.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> .
> 
> Steve;  What you say is true, however there is "ghost inventory" each year, in each resort, which goes unclaimed.  Marriott does not talk about this as they likely use this unclaimed inventory for their own financial benefit.
> 
> ...



Well aware and very true.  I suspect all of it will be consumed by what they have done already though. Someone, I think maybe @JIMinNC came up with a calculation in April or so of how many weeks were already lost. Now that it's June of course, even more weeks. The number is massive. No way they can possibly have that many weeks. As I had said, the popular resorts already have 100% occupancy anyway during high season. You can't replace all those weeks, at least within MVCI.

I think people underestimate what you can do with 60/120 day deposits because maybe they always do a year in advance as that makes them feel good or safe or organized or de-stressed, whatever. Most all of my trips are done within 120 days. There are exceptions. But there is simply no way they will go where they want to when they want to in all cases as that much inventory will simply not be there. And if you opened all those lost weeks to keeping them with a year or 2 to use them, it would be even worse. Even more owners would be impacted. I am quite certain my style of exchanging and ownership will be greatly affected the next 2 years, I am sure I will be losing out. Essentially, someone who was unaware of the rules or simply took the risk, will win out over me who followed all the rules. That's ok I guess as short term is always a little risk anyway. But I could never accept my own resorts week to be booked before I could use it.


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## nycjimster (Jun 13, 2020)

I posted this on the forum a few weeks ago.  I had reserved an August week at Ko Olina that I knew I can not use this year.  I had posted on Redweek for rental and did not have any interest.  My question to the forum - should I wait for rental or bank with Interval.  Somebody asked me if I like to gamble, and I decided that I did not for this week.   I called Marriott to bank the week with Interval (just outside the 60 days period).  I remember someone on the thread mentioning that I could rent the rent to Marriott, and I asked the advisor if Marriott was still taking the late August week.  Marriott was, and I jumped at the opportunity.  It was less than my maintenance, but in light of the pandemic, I was very happy with the transaction.  I spent a lot of time reading TUG the past few months, and I knew the challenge this year.   

I also spoke with Marriott and Interval a lot the past month, and they have been amazing.  I canceled my trade to Grande Vista for Easter Week, and Interval gave me a replacement week that I booked for late August in Hilton Head.  I used another banked Marriott week to book Marriott Mrytle Beach the week before.  I had to rework some of my banked weeks, and Interval was flexible in letting me extend over the deadline, and provide some excellent ideas on how to tackle my weeks.   Granted I spent some time figuring it out and reaching out to Marriott and Interval.  I have no complaints with Marriott and Interval.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

nycjimster said:


> I posted this on the forum a few weeks ago.  I had reserved an August week at Ko Olina that I knew I can not use this year.  I had posted on Redweek for rental and did not have any interest.  My question to the forum - should I wait for rental or bank with Interval.  Somebody asked me if I like to gamble, and I decided that I did not for this week.   I called Marriott to bank the week with Interval (just outside the 60 days period).  I remember someone on the thread mentioning that I could rent the rent to Marriott, and I asked the advisor if Marriott was still taking the late August week.  Marriott was, and I jumped at the opportunity.  It was less than my maintenance, but in light of the pandemic, I was very happy with the transaction.  I spent a lot of time reading TUG the past few months, and I knew the challenge this year.
> 
> I also spoke with Marriott and Interval a lot the past month, and they have been amazing.  I canceled my trade to Grande Vista for Easter Week, and Interval gave me a replacement week that I booked for late August in Hilton Head.  I used another banked Marriott week to book Marriott Mrytle Beach the week before.  I had to rework some of my banked weeks, and Interval was flexible in letting me extend over the deadline, and provide some excellent ideas on how to tackle my weeks.   Granted I spent some time figuring it out and reaching out to Marriott and Interval.  I have no complaints with Marriott and Interval.



You are an educated owner then, putting some effort into getting the best use out of your timeshare, as opposed to someone else giving you something for nothing for a one size fits all. There is no such thing in timeshare world, someone always wins and loses. Kudos for reading TUG and understanding some of your options and spending the effort. That is different than someone just sitting there until the last week or day, and then getting mad. In theory, there are a large number of people with more time on their hands than they have had before (sadly in most cases), so, for them at least, a little effort would likely have also paid off in some way. Not everyone of course. But as I said before, I always feel bad for anyone who has lost trips, whether they can be re-scheduled or not. A trip is a trip! 

Good job!! TUG is really a great resource, what you learn here can provide you with benefits for the life of your ownership. Far more than if you had a more passive attitude.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jun 13, 2020)

To me it is a matter of what risk you are willing to carry, and at what price.

Timeshares can provide a cheap alternative to other forms of short term rental, but you take the risk of non-usage for the period purchased, plus the risk of being unable to get rid of the property if it no longer fits your needs. Ownership entails cost and risks.

If going to a timeshare that costs one less than, say a hotel rental(s) to get the same space, that's great - until something like COVID-19 rears its ugly head. Then your cost savings go up in smoke (at least in the relative short term). You pays your money and takes your choice. . .

Same with airfare. Are you willing to pay the full refundable for each of your air trips? Or do you pay dramatically less for a non-refundable flight? When you buy the air fare, you usually have the choice. . . .

I personally have written off $3700 in air fare because once I couldn't take a Hawaii trip. Fortunes of War. . .


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## csodjd (Jun 13, 2020)

Interesting thread. I was/am frustrated that I essentially lost my $2400 MF and week in Maui. I deposited in II, but don't really understand the system and so maybe I'll be able to use it, maybe not. But I bought a TS from MVC. They didn't promise I would be able to use it no matter what. I assumed the risk. It's nobody's fault. MVC doesn't "owe" me anything. If they want to extend a courtesy, great. I appreciate it. But I OWN the week, and so I alone assume the risk of a "natural" disaster. If Marriott was at fault, different story. But they aren't. They are a victim of all this too. And as much as I hate losing the week, and having to pay the MF, from a $$ standpoint, I'm way ahead because I'd have spent $5000 on air and golf and food, and Mai Tais. So I have not "lost money," I've just lost a week in Maui. I'll live. People are in food lines. And dying. I am in no position to bitch about losing a week in Maui. 

I bitched bitterly about Hawaiian Air, because they CHANGED THE RULES (changed their CoC) when COVID hit to try and screw me. Marriott has done nothing to try and screw anyone. Whatever changes they have made to their rules were to try and help soften the blow. Could they have done more? Maybe. Did they have to do anything? No. 

To the OP, I get it. If this wasn't/isn't a risk you wanted to assume or no longer want to assume, then yes, sell your TS. The risks are very small. This time, it happened. Let's figure out how to have a great vacation in 2021 and move on. 

That's my view.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@Steve Fatula The HGV info is provided to help the OP compare as to whether MVCs response is commensurate with the industry.

You could make the same zero-sum game argument about United vouchers vs. SWA response. More travel vouchers competing for limited airline seats. SWA handled the zero-sum game by pushing out voucher expiration until Sept 7 2022. They changed the rules temporarily to ensure customer satisfaction. SWA will not be going out of business anytime soon.  How a company treats their customers not just during good times but during a crisis is a very important measure. This crisis response makes me more loyal to SWA vs. United going forward.

MVC has many levers for low cost options and temporary rule changes. They just want you to believe it is a zero-sum game.

MVC is  a big conglomerate. There is no reason for owners to worry about MVC's (or II's) profitability. In fact, I think they missed an opportunity to engender more customer loyalty and generate upsell as evidenced by the OP and others on this board that are now unhappy and will tell other potential buyers.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula The HGV info is provided to help the OP compare as to whether MVCs response is commensurate with the industry.
> 
> You could make the same zero-sum game argument about United vouchers vs. SWA response. More travel vouchers competing for limited airline seats. SWA handled the zero-sum game by pushing out voucher expiration until Sept 7 2022. SWA will not be going out of business anytime soon. In fact this makes me more loyal to SWA vs. United.
> 
> MVC has many levers for low cost options and temporary rule changes. They just want you to believe it is a zero-sum game.  I am also a Vistana Hawaii owner (also owned by MVC). There is no reason for owners to worry about MVC profitability.



I don't see airlines as the same, as of today, they are at about 20% pre Covid TSA checkins at DFW as an example. Their solution is to not fly. MVCI has many more expenses that come into play even when "closed", different taxes, different orgs they must report to and are involved in, taxes, etc. Again, I don't care about SWA vs United or anything else. You simply cannot compare two widely different timeshare systems and say one response was better than the other. It's not possible. What is possible is different for each of them. I totally reject that HGVC did better for it's customers for that reason. As far as appearances, you may be correct. But if you read the meeting notes from some of the resorts, you will see some additional info about what additional expenses they now have. There was a brief discussion from some about will MF go down next year due to the pandemic and low occupancy. Well..... The news at least from 2 I have now read is not so optimistic...

MVCI is not pulling the wool over all the long time owners here. That is not the case. Many here have immense knowledge and in some cases even used to work at MVCI, like @SeaDoc

I understand nothing anyone says will change your mind. That's ok, you are entitled to your opinion. But at some point, you have to see that the 20 year + owners here who are mostly all either supporting what MVCI has done more than not, or, are mad at MVCI for the opposite reasons as you are, must have some reasons for being so. You will never get everyone to agree. All I can say is watch what happens the next year or two and then re-visit the topic. If your point is there is something somewhere that they could have done better, I will agree with you. But it won't make everyone whole. And the same could be said of any org. 

But I do agree to disagree with you and no harm no foul. I can see your side. If you want to make a better case though, please expand on how they can make the number of lost week owners whole in detail, specifics, otherwise it's not very convincing. If Marriott has many levers to pull, what levers and how many weeks would that recover? etc. Wish I could lcoate the thread with the number @JIMinNC calculated were already lost long ago.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> But I do agree to disagree with you and no harm no foul. I can see your side. If you want to make a better case though, please expand on how they can make the number of lost week owners whole in detail, specifics, otherwise it's not very convincing. If Marriott has many levers to pull, what levers and how many weeks would that recover? etc. Wish I could lcoate the thread with the number @JIMinNC calculated were already lost long ago.



I've provided several ideas already in prior posts. The key is looking at how rules could be relaxed temporarily (e.g. SWA new 2022 expiration for vouchers) and looking across the resources of the entire corporation and its partners (MVC inventory, Unsold DP trust points, Vistana (e.g. unsold rooms at Nanea), II, Astin, Hyatt, Bonvoy points, free vacation promo packages, excess Marriott hotel rooms etc. ). This is not the same MVC system as 20 years ago so they have many levers.

It also doesn't have to be room for room inventory to delight the customer. What if they offered temporary elite status for one year? Costs them nothing but will delight (and may bring owners back to buy more to keep this status once they get a taste of it.) 

MVC is fully capable of figuring this out themselves and they have the exact numbers if it were a priority. I don't think the enrolled points owners are affected so it is mainly un-enrolled resale deeded owners, correct? Perhaps this segment is not a priority for them? Are they doing anything for owners who followed the 60 day rule but missed their intended window?


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Well you seem to be happy with MVCs solution. So I wish you well.


It's not me or you being happy but that I understand the rules, risks and responsibilities.


TheTimeTraveler said:


> .
> 
> Steve;  What you say is true, however there is "ghost inventory" each year, in each resort, which goes unclaimed.  Marriott does not talk about this as they likely use this unclaimed inventory for their own financial benefit.
> 
> ...


There is but it's not inventory routinely available far in advance and even though it may be substantial, it's mostly off season, very short notice or even weeks reserved but not used.  I'm sure the volume is barely enough to cover what they've done already if that.


CalGalTraveler said:


> What you are describing here is the exact definition of zero-sum game.
> 
> My point is that MVC has plenty of levers at their control to avoid a zero-sum game. MVC now owns II so can change rules. They can do whatever they want. MVC owns separate inventory that they rent or use for promotional packages or received from ROFR. They have new Vistana resorts at Nanea and Kauai which are not sold out. They could temporarily lease more space from other timeshares...many options so no need to feel sorry for them.
> 
> To compare, I have 4 years to use my 2019 HGV banked points (2yrs HGV, 2 yrs RCI in which I can trade back into HGVC or other.) That's plenty of cushion to absorb with little impact to owners.


I don't think they have plenty of leftovers that's in the club and unused.  If it's unsold inventory or traded in with points for other options, IMO it's inappropriate to expect them to donate it.


CalGalTraveler said:


> I've provided several ideas already in prior posts. The key is looking at how rules could be relaxed temporarily (e.g. SWA new 2022 expiration for vouchers) and looking across the resources of the entire corporation and its partners (MVC inventory, Unsold DP trust points, Vistana (e.g. unsold rooms at Nanea), II, Astin, Hyatt, Bonvoy points, free vacation promo packages, excess Marriott hotel rooms etc. ). This is not the same MVC system as 20 years ago so they have many levers.
> 
> It also doesn't have to be room for room inventory to delight the customer. What if they offered temporary elite status for one year? Costs them nothing but will delight (and may bring owners back to buy more to keep this status once they get a taste of it.) Hotels are doing this.
> 
> MVC is fully capable of figuring this out themselves and they have the exact numbers if it were a priority. I don't think the enrolled points owners are affected so it is mainly un-enrolled resale deeded owners, correct? Perhaps this segment is not a priority for them?


They did relax the rules, that they made choices different that you prefer doesn't make them inappropriate.  It's like the HHI hurricane choices.  IMO they should have closed resort by resort rather than shifting owners to other resorts and canceling all the II exchanges but I do feel the choice was reasonable and it was done in favor of owners using their weeks over exchangers.  I know some were upset that some of those exchangers were also MVC owners exchanging in and that's a far more legitimate beef IMO.


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## MICROZE (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I've provided several ideas already in prior posts. The key is looking at how rules could be relaxed temporarily (e.g. SWA new 2022 expiration for vouchers) and looking across the resources of the entire corporation and its partners (MVC inventory, Unsold DP trust points, Vistana (e.g. unsold rooms at Nanea), II, Astin, Hyatt, Bonvoy points, free vacation promo packages, excess Marriott hotel rooms etc. ). This is not the same MVC system as 20 years ago so they have many levers.
> 
> It also doesn't have to be room for room inventory to delight the customer. What if they offered temporary elite status for one year? Costs them nothing but will delight (and may bring owners back to buy more to keep this status once they get a taste of it.)
> 
> MVC is fully capable of figuring this out themselves and they have the exact numbers if it were a priority. I don't think the enrolled points owners are affected so it is mainly un-enrolled resale deeded owners, correct? Perhaps this segment is not a priority for them? Are they doing anything for owners who followed the 60 day rule but missed their intended window?


As per the laws of nature there is a cost for everything.
Nothing in life is free. If its free its worth exactly nothing.

If Marriott were to offer "Elite" status to everyone, "No One Would Be Elite". Who gets elite priority when 10M members are Elite? No One.
Bonvoy-Points are currency [just like Airline-Miles] and there is a cost to these. They are not like McDonald coupons that show up in flyers.
DP-Points have to be backed by inventory, these cant be spun up from thin air. If there are no weeks then these are worthless.
Marriott and II are independent companies, like Steve mentioned earlier, other [Non-Marriott Owners] are going to suffer due to actions Marriott has already taken.

Listening to this thread, it seems like Marriott owns a printing press and is in partnership with the Fed-Reserve.

I have personally had 7 weeks canceled due to Covid and am very pleased how Vistana & Marriott treated me.
I was fully aware of the limitations of canceling late. Despite the restrictions, Marriott & Vistana went out of their way to help.

As for the airlines, I have heard many glowing posts but personally experienced varying levels of service from refusing to issue refunds and restrictive future credits.
When the time comes to redeem the vouchers and the airlines are at 100% capacity, they can add more flights. Marriott at 100% capacity cannot add more rooms.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

Dean said:


> It's not me or you being happy but that I understand the rules, risks and responsibilities.



Southwest had no contractual obligation to extend travel vouchers to 2022 but they did it to delight the customer. This will pay back to them in loyalty many times over. It's called customer satisfaction.



Dean said:


> If it's unsold inventory or traded in with points for other options, IMO it's inappropriate to expect them to donate it.



Why not? You expect owners to shoulder the burden based on a contractual arrangement. Why shouldn't MVC pitch in to keep their base happy? If I recall from the MVC earnings call, they expected a high proportion of sales to come from their base.  How do they expect owners to buy more if they are unhappy or happy but cautious to invest more based on what happened?


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## californiagirl (Jun 13, 2020)

Amy241 I’m so sorry for the loss of your vacation.  That would be a bitter pill to take.  Especially with it being your first time using the resort I’m sure your anticipation was high.  Hopefully Hawaiian gave you vouchers to rebook the flights for next year.  I realize these are first world losses, but they are losses to you none the less.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I've provided several ideas already in prior posts. The key is looking at how rules could be relaxed temporarily (e.g. SWA new 2022 expiration for vouchers) and looking across the resources of the entire corporation and its partners (MVC inventory, Unsold DP trust points, Vistana (e.g. unsold rooms at Nanea), II, Astin, Hyatt, Bonvoy points, free vacation promo packages, excess Marriott hotel rooms etc. ). This is not the same MVC system as 20 years ago so they have many levers.
> 
> It also doesn't have to be room for room inventory to delight the customer. What if they offered temporary elite status for one year? Costs them nothing but will delight (and may bring owners back to buy more to keep this status once they get a taste of it.)
> 
> MVC is fully capable of figuring this out themselves and they have the exact numbers if it were a priority. I don't think the enrolled points owners are affected so it is mainly un-enrolled resale deeded owners, correct? Perhaps this segment is not a priority for them? Are they doing anything for owners who followed the 60 day rule but missed their intended window?



Do you actually own MVCI, if so where and for how long?


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Southwest had no contractual obligation to extend travel vouchers to 2022 but they did it to delight the customer. This will pay back to them in loyalty many times over. It's called customer satisfaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? You expect owners to shoulder the burden based on a contractual arrangement. Why shouldn't MVC pitch in to keep their base happy? If I recall from the MVC earnings call, they expected a high proportion of sales to come from their base.  How do they expect owners to buy more if they are unhappy or happy but cautious to invest more based on what happened?


IMO it's irrelevant what one company did compared to another as long as they all followed the rules and laws in place.  I expect owners to shoulder the risks they signed up for and MVC to follow the rules in place and the contract.  If they can do more, that's OK but it's unreasonable to expect them to.  They've already done a lot more than that.  What happens with sales does not affect those realities.  I'm sure sales will suffer no matter what even if they gave freebies to everyone just with the realities of the situations the next couple of years but IMO that's irrelevant to us as members/owners.  It may be applicable for stockholders but that's another thread.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

What also hasn't been factored in here is the deluge of deedbacks, giveaway sales via ROFR, and defaults that will hit when owners get their MF Bill's. That will create plenty of available inventory similar to the OP.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What also hasn't been factored in here is the deluge of deedbacks, giveaway sales via ROFR, and defaults that will hit when owners get their MF Bill's. That will create plenty of available inventory similar to the OP.


But that doesn't increase club availability.  What it might do is increase dues as the remaining owners will have to pay for the actual costs of managing the resort.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

That is one of many factors that will cause MF increases, correct. Then you have increased cleaning costs, staff for cleanings, staff for enforcing social distancing, etc. etc. etc.

As far as inventory goes, due to increased time and requirements on cleaning, Branson (as one example) does not have anywhere near all inventory even open, <50% is what they told me could be booked. There are some requirements there they were alluding to but few details given. I believe a unit may have to stay vacant for some period of time. Therefore, inventory is actually much lower.

I stupidly thought it would be great to go there the day it re-opened for new bookings. I was mistaken. Due to units being vacant for about 3 months, anyone who has owned a vacant house should know better (I have but did not think of it!). There were a number of issues such as AC not working that took a few days to work out. Vacant properties tend to decay with no usage, often faster than if used.


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## MICROZE (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What also hasn't been factored in here is the deluge of deedbacks, giveaway sales via ROFR, and defaults that will hit when owners get their MF Bill's. That will create plenty of available inventory similar to the OP.


Excellent point.
More freebies today will result in higher MF down the road, in turn resulting in more defaults.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@MICROZE The cost of the freebies and incentives to stay will pale in comparison to owners who lost their job or disenfranchised owners like the OP who will walk. Can't do much about the former but can do something about the latter.


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## Dean (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @MICROZE The cost of the freebies and incentives to stay will pale in comparison to owners who lost their job or disenfranchised owners like the OP who will walk.


Let me get to the core issue.  Why would one think they are entitled to freebies?  That's what I don't truly understand and I'm sure I never will because my mind doesn't work that way.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @MICROZE The cost of the freebies and incentives to stay will pale in comparison to owners who lost their job or disenfranchised owners like the OP who will walk. Can't do much about the former but can do something about the latter.



Do you actually own MVCI? If I recall, you didn't a few years back, though you may have purchased recently. Or, I could be way off of course.

Obviously someone who lost their job will likely walk anyway. I seriously doubt there will be a deluge of disenfranchised owners like the OP, that is quite a stretch! Broke owners for sure.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 13, 2020)

@steve_Fatula Why are you making personal attacks just because someone disagrees with you? That is against TUG rules.

Let's stick to attacking the topic not the people. We all bring different perspectives which add value.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 13, 2020)

I did not mean to make any personal attacks, if I did so, can you point it out? I will change it if it really is.

My issue here is similar to what the mod said earlier in this thread (post #30) about another poster. In reviewing and remembering your posts, you have a ton of posts in the MVCI forums almost always negative, and pointing out how great your owned systems are. I don't understand why? Near as I can tell, you own HGVC and Vistana, not MVCI. This comes mainly from this post:









						Shouldn’t the “skim” be a dead issue now?
					

NO question HGVC is a more user-friendly, cost effective overall system than Marriott - and where locations are comparable - we'll use HGVC over MVC points. We bought HGVC for access to the Big Island, and secondarily, to Oahu and their other locations. With the HGVC locations, it's unlikely...




					tugbbs.com
				




For me, it's bothersome that people who don't even own are continually posting information for something they may not fully understand I guess. So, I was asking if you owned MVCI, and I found a post in 2019 that said you owned only those 2 systems. I don't enjoy non owners posting complaints, and that's been going on a lot since Vistana came in. Perhaps that is a bad attitude, but that's the way I feel. I have whined to at least one mod previously about this, months ago (not about you, in general).

If I am wrong, I apologize, but that's my motive. The trend has really really got to me this past 6 months.


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## Ken555 (Jun 13, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> I did not mean to make any personal attacks, if I did so, can you point it out? I will change it if it really is.
> 
> My issue here is similar to what the mod said earlier in this thread about another poster. In reviewing your posts, you have a ton of posts in the MVCI forums almost always negative, and pointing out how great your owned systems are. I don't understand why? Near as I can tell, you own HGVC and Vistana, not MVCI. This comes mainly from this post:
> 
> ...



I get your point, and I’m sure others do, as well. Still, it’s a deflection from the issue. You were doing so well before you started going after the poster. Stick to the issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> I get your point, and I’m sure others do, as well. Still, it’s a deflection from the issue. You were doing so well before you started going after the poster. Stick to the issue.



Can you tell me where I did so? Genuinely and sincerely want to know. It was not my intent at all to (knowingly) do so. Thank you in advance.

My intent is not to make *any* personal attacks. My intent is when I disagree with something someone has said, I will often post what I think as well. Doesn't make me right. 

I should note in the general section of Tug, I often like a lot of what CalGalTraveler has to say. But that's deflecting too, but wanted to say that anyway. (hoping someone points out the error of my ways so I can understand).


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## Ken555 (Jun 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Can you tell me where I did so? Genuinely and sincerely want to know. It was not my intent at all to (knowingly) do so. Thank you in advance.



You asked multiple times re ownership. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 14, 2020)

I don't see that as personal, if I am wrong (and apparently I am in the eyes of the poster), I definitely and humbly apologize.


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## csalter2 (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You asked multiple times re ownership.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



‘That is not a personal attack.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 14, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> ‘That is not a personal attack.



I (obviously) agree, however, if someone feels that I have attacked them, I want them to know I did not mean it that way and had I have known my post would be taken that way, I would not have done so. My attitude over these sorts of things has grown much worse these past 6 months (week by week), and, I think it comes across in some posts. I am liking TUG less and less over what I have stated earlier. I think I need a break from TUG for a while in the hopes things change over time.


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## csalter2 (Jun 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What you are describing here is the exact definition of zero-sum game.
> 
> My point is that MVC has plenty of levers at their control to avoid a zero-sum game. MVC now owns II so can change rules. They can do whatever they want. MVC owns separate inventory that they rent or use for promotional packages or received from ROFR. They have new Vistana resorts at Nanea and Kauai which are not sold out. They could temporarily lease more space from other timeshares...many options so no need to feel sorry for them.
> 
> To compare, I have 4 years to use my 2019 HGV banked points (2yrs HGV, 2 yrs RCI in which I can trade back into HGVC or other.) That's plenty of cushion to absorb with little impact to owners.



I have read your statements of what MVC is not doing compared to HGVC.  However, maybe HGVC should be taking some lessons from Marriott. Being a Diamond Resorts owner as well, I know HGVC owners were most concerned about being bought by Diamond Resorts. That has not been a concern for Marriott owners.  As you can see, many of the Marriott owners feel happy about the consideration they have been offered. Some don’t really care about what other timeshare companies are doing. If one is poor and wants to be rich, he’s not going to look at another poor man to model. He’s more than likely going to model a rich man. So in that same vain, I certainly don’t want Marriott modeling after HGVC because with them possibly being on the verge of being gobbled up by another company, they are not a beacon of solvency. Perhaps HGVC should be taking a stronger look at Marriott.


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## MICROZE (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You asked multiple times re ownership.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh Wow!

Although I have owned my TS for 10+ years, I am a rookie on TUG and have a lot to learn.
Good to know that seeking to find out what someone owns is a "Personal Attack".


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## Ken555 (Jun 14, 2020)

MICROZE said:


> Oh Wow!
> 
> Although I have owned my TS for 10+ years, I am a rookie on TUG and have a lot to learn.
> Good to know that seeking to find out what someone owns is a "Personal Attack".



Sarcastic much?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MICROZE (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Sarcastic much?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Apologies if you considered my comment as "sarcasm".
A lot to learn. Touché.


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## Ken555 (Jun 14, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> ‘That is not a personal attack.



Not sure why I contributed my thoughts since I should have known the only responses would dispute my opinion on this issue. Steve asked at least three times if the earlier poster owned Marriott, and then proceeded to go into detail as to her previous post(s) on another thread to substantiate his belief of her ownership. He spent time on this. On just to find out if someone contributing to this thread owned Marriott. Yeah, it may not be an attack but it’s definitely on the way to discredit her posts on the subject of this thread simply because she may not own Marriott. That’s not very congenial, especially when the poster has significant experience with timeshares and understands the underlying issues being discussed. I suppose I should be grateful I wasn’t similarly attacked since I also don’t own Marriott. Perhaps we should all simply try to be more inclusive, eh?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Jun 14, 2020)

MICROZE said:


> Apologies if you considered my comment as "sarcasm".
> A lot to learn. Touché.



No worries. This isn’t a normal TUG thread. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Not sure why I contributed my thoughts since I should have known the only responses would dispute my opinion on this issue. Steve asked at least three times if the earlier poster owned Marriott, and then proceeded to go into detail as to her previous post(s) on another thread to substantiate his belief of her ownership. He spent time on this. On just to find out if someone contributing to this thread owned Marriott. Yeah, it may not be an attack but it’s definitely on the way to discredit her posts on the subject of this thread simply because she may not own Marriott. That’s not very congenial, especially when the poster has significant experience with timeshares and understands the underlying issues being discussed. I suppose I should be grateful I wasn’t similarly attacked since I also don’t own Marriott. Perhaps we should all simply try to be more inclusive, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ok now, let me set that record straight as you are posting on something you know nothing about here. But I won't do so publicly as I don't want to cause more harm. I will Dm you.


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## Ken555 (Jun 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Ok now, let me set that record straight as you are posting on something you know nothing about here. But I won't do so publicly as I don't want to cause more harm. I will Dm you.



If so, I apologize. However, from what I read you inquired three times re her ownership when your question wasn’t answered and you researched her ownership, so this obviously is important to you. Not sure what I missed but happy to take it off line. I have no interest here other than to see us all be more inclusive and you were posting comments about non-Marriott owners shouldn’t be posting here, etc... (which, by the way, is curious given the thread title).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> If so, I apologize. However, from what I read you inquired three times re her ownership when your question wasn’t answered and you researched her ownership, so this obviously is important to you. Not sure what I missed but happy to take it off line. I have no interest here other than to see us all be more inclusive and you were posting comments about non-Marriott owners shouldn’t be posting here, etc... (which, by the way, is curious given the thread title).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Not necessary to apologize to me. Sending DM to explain.


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## ski_sierra (Jun 14, 2020)

I do feel that it is the responsibility of individual owners to take action about their vacation in a timely manner and protect their vacation by moving/depositing their week. Not sure if Marriott has informed people about their options before the 60-day deadline. That doesn't cost much.



Fairwinds said:


> My 2 cents. If you own and live in a condo and it is rendered uninhabitable by no fault of the management company or HOA are they responsible for your lodging. Why is Marriott responsible because government agencies restrict travel? Any little thing they do is above and beyond what is required. If a unit sits unoccupied for weeks or months and they provide compensation to owners someone down the line pays. Who is that?


TUGgers like to throw out a comparison with a wholly-owned condo when it comes to the risk of usage. When people complain about MFs on TS weeks being too high compared to wholly-owned condos, TUGgers quickly point out the differences between wholly-owned condos and timeshares.  The HOAs are controlled by Marriott and they also manipulate utilize the system to their own benefit, unlike many other HOAs for fully owned condos. So no wonder people expect more from Marriott. As a relatively new MVC owner, I don't understand the MVC system as well as @Steve Fatula but I do feel like Marriott should have come up with some other creative ways of appeasing these owners. Note that I did not lose anything significant because of corona restrictions so I am not advocating that MVC should do more because I stand to gain from it in any way.

II ACs are given out for free so they are worth exactly zero IMO. Yes, some people turn them into wonderful vacations but an owner who did not deposit their week > 60 days out isn't going to be the one doing that. Most likely such owners have many ACs already in their II account if they have one. If they don't have an II account, it's probably not even worth setting up an II account for.

Marriott could have given access to unbooked inventory within a certain number of days of check-in in future years instead of II AC. I read somewhere that Marriott grabs unbooked inventory within a certain date of check-in to rent out. Perhaps give owners a shot at that inventory before using it themselves? I feel MVC chose the easy way. I know they are not obligated to work harder as they are not responsible for the travel restrictions of the corona crisis. But a more empathetic response from MVC would have been nice to read about and would win the hearts of many owners. HGVC has done that. Even though I'm going to be a loser in the next few years in HGVC due to too many club points chasing limited inventory, I feel better about HGVC that I do about MVC.


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## bizaro86 (Jun 14, 2020)

Dean said:


> IMO it's irrelevant what one company did compared to another as long as they all followed the rules and laws in place.  I expect owners to shoulder the risks they signed up for and MVC to follow the rules in place and the contract.  If they can do more, that's OK but it's unreasonable to expect them to.  They've already done a lot more than that.  What happens with sales does not affect those realities.  I'm sure sales will suffer no matter what even if they gave freebies to everyone just with the realities of the situations the next couple of years but IMO that's irrelevant to us as members/owners.  It may be applicable for stockholders but that's another thread.



That's true to a point. However, I think when every other hotel branded timeshare company offers more to their owners than MVC during times of crisis (which is consistently true in every crisis, imo) then it is relevant to compare them. Especially as many people will buy new more timeshares, or sell and buy something different. Tug is a resource for researching timeshare purchases (hopefully resale!). I think crisis response is a valid consumer consideration, and MVC's competitors all have a track record of offering more to their customers in times of crisis than MVC. 

Does MVC follow the law/agreements in place? I think generally yes. Do they bend over backwards to make sure customers are getting the most value they can in a crisis? Not compared to their competitors. Seems relevant to me...


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## ski_sierra (Jun 14, 2020)

I also feel MVC points owners have done better than the weeks owners. And perhaps that was intentional so as to show the value of points system or penalize those pesky weeks owners who haven't bought from MVC or spent $$$$ for enrollment.

I recommend checking out HGVC to people like the OP who are not happy with Marriott.


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## Dean (Jun 14, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> ‘That is not a personal attack.


IMO it's not a personal attack and I feel whether one owns or not is applicable to the discussion in this case.  As a rule, when it's a matter of true principle, ethics, laws and rules; I do not feel one has to be directly involved to have a valid opinion.  In this case it does affect the reasonableness of the position since everyone agrees they did more than they were required to do.  And some might see it as rude to not answer the question but continue to post so strongly on the subject.


bizaro86 said:


> That's true to a point. However, I think when every other hotel branded timeshare company offers more to their owners than MVC during times of crisis (which is consistently true in every crisis, imo) then it is relevant to compare them. Especially as many people will buy new more timeshares, or sell and buy something different. Tug is a resource for researching timeshare purchases (hopefully resale!). I think crisis response is a valid consumer consideration, and MVC's competitors all have a track record of offering more to their customers in times of crisis than MVC.
> 
> Does MVC follow the law/agreements in place? I think generally yes. Do they bend over backwards to make sure customers are getting the most value they can in a crisis? Not compared to their competitors. Seems relevant to me...


I think it's fair to compare them but that's different than stating one SHOULD have done more because in their eyes, someone else did.  There will always be someone that does more or less and what is more or less will vary with the individual's situation and views.  I just can't wrap my head around the idea that they did FAR more than was required by the rules but they are being inappropriate because they did not do more still.  They clearly put a lot of effort and thought into the choices they made. Obviously there are a lot of things they could have done differently including a lot less than they ended up doing, they had decisions to make.  By rule everyone under 60 days would have lost their week and most over 60 days couldn't change and use either under the actual rules anyway.  And by rule points in holding could normally be used at 60 days out and would expire the end of the UY.  Don't forget even had they been hard line to the rules in place, they still are losing a lot of money because of all this.  Maybe they can look at some future changes that would accommodate such an extreme situation but most of those options would require a vote of the owners resort by resort.

I think it's the me, me, me part of this that bothers me the most.  I'm comfortable with the choices MVC has made in this situation and it likely is a good compromise between helping owners and future usage.  I was not in complete agreement with them on the hurricane solution last year.  So at this point it's about what we're made of, not MVC, IMO.


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## ljmiii (Jun 14, 2020)

Wow...I spend an evening out and the morning sleeping in and a flame war erupts. To recap where I left off...

I felt MVC's initial response was abysmal but am reasonably pleased with the policies they eventually put in place to address the COVID-19 crisis. Points cancelled 60 days or less were extended into 2021 and given a special 120 day window. And worthless weeks were allowed to be deposited into II up to a day before check-in (instead of 14 days out) - affected MVC week owners got something instead of nothing.

And comparisons of MVC to HGVC are valuable in general. But despite the fact that one buys a 'deeded week' to get into HGVC it in fact is operated as a pure point system with the ability to book one's 'home week' up to a year in advance. This gives HGVC greater flexibility (though you have to pay a fee to use your cancelled 2020 points in 2021).

That said...

CalGalTraveler's opinion is as valid as anyone else's. She doesn't seem to be misinformed about MVC's standard policies and procedures.

And if you asked a hundred people, "Should a business do less than it's peer group to help it's customers through a crisis even though it met its contractual obligations?" you would get a positive response in the teens at most.

That said, I *do* think MVC's response to the crisis has been more than adequate and given the differences inherent in a weeks based system *has* done about as well as HGVC in this regard.


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## Dean (Jun 14, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> CalGalTraveler's opinion is as valid as anyone else's. She doesn't seem to be misinformed about MVC's standard policies and procedures.


If you're referring to my post, let me clarify.  I do feel that their opinion is valid but I also feel that where they're coming from as a point of reference is applicable.



> And if you asked a hundred people, "Should a business do less than it's peer group to help it's customers through a crisis even though it met its contractual obligations?" you would get a positive response in the teens at most.


IMO that's irrelevant, esp in today's entitlement world.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 14, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> I also feel MVC points owners have done better than the weeks owners. And perhaps that was intentional so as to show the value of points system or penalize those pesky weeks owners who haven't bought from MVC or spent $$$$ for enrollment.



This may be true to an extent, however MVC points owners who had "locked off" and split up their weeks for use had no other recourse but to use Interval International as an alternative during the pandemic.


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## Fairwinds (Jun 14, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> I do feel that it is the responsibility of individual owners to take action about their vacation in a timely manner and protect their vacation by moving/depositing their week. Not sure if Marriott has informed people about their options before the 60-day deadline. That doesn't cost much.
> 
> 
> TUGgers like to throw out a comparison with a wholly-owned condo when it comes to the risk of usage. When people complain about MFs on TS weeks being too high compared to wholly-owned condos, TUGgers quickly point out the differences between wholly-owned condos and timeshares.  The HOAs are controlled by Marriott and they also manipulate utilize the system to their own benefit, unlike many other HOAs for fully owned condos. So no wonder people expect more from Marriott. As a relatively new MVC owner, I don't understand the MVC system as well as @Steve Fatula but I do feel like Marriott should have come up with some other creative ways of appeasing these owners. Note that I did not lose anything significant because of corona restrictions so I am not advocating that MVC should do more because I stand to gain from it in any way.
> ...




Yes they could do more. And I am certainly not against Marriott being generous. I received a restricted week after losing time during the recent hurricane. I also agree that wholly owned condos are different but I still think the premise is appropriate. My point is that most of, if not all the solutions that disgruntled posters are suggesting, are solutions that require the transfer of something that does not belong to them, e.g., using encore incentive weeks normally used by sales department. Those weeks have value and they are entitled to them; we are not. That’s why I think that anything Marriott does is generous and above and beyond what is required. If you are not entitled to those weeks you should not be upset if they are not offered.

However, I do think Steve Fatula has more weeks than he needs and should give me one. Palm Desert in February please.


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## ljmiii (Jun 14, 2020)

Dean said:


> If you're referring to my post, let me clarify.  I do feel that their opinion is valid but I also feel that where they're coming from as a point of reference is applicable.


I'm not....and agree with you on that issue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if you asked a hundred people, "Should a business do less than it's peer group to help it's customers through a crisis even though it met its contractual obligations?" you would get a positive response in the teens at most."



Dean said:


> IMO that's irrelevant, esp in today's entitlement world.


It is arguably the only question that matters in today's customer driven world - particularly during the crisis. At the moment customers are judging airlines, car rental companies, hotels, and other businesses of all kinds against their peer group to see which ones deserve their business in the future. As they should. To see which ones can be relied on to 'do them right' in the face of future adversity.

Compared to other industries timeshares are relatively isolated from peer comparisons once the initial purchase is made. In particular, MVC's barrier to exit is huge compared to DVC and HGVC (I can't speak to others). OP will take a bath if he sells - particularly in today's timeshare market. Yet he feels (or felt) that MVC can't be trusted. 

I hope that OP considers the comments you, myself, and others have made will reassure him that MVC *has* done as well as its peer group. Or at least that after considering our comments he makes an informed decision to sell.


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## Dean (Jun 14, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> I'm not....and agree with you on that issue.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


From a right and wrong standpoint I don't think it's arguable since they're doing more than required.


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## Rodenwjr (Jun 14, 2020)

This has been one of the worst hijacking of a thread that I've seen in this forum. It went from the OP "taking their ball and going home" because they didn't like the game they signed up for ... to blaming MVC that they didn't do 'enough' during unprecedented times! 

It boils down to knowing what you signed up for and being able to make informed decisions based on the issue presented to you. It's that simple. Take ownership of the problem.


Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk


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## controller1 (Jun 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You asked multiple times re ownership.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I personally do not think that is an attack. It is a simple question to determine whether the poster has skin in the game. That is why I tend to not give as much credence to the posts from members/guests who do not show their ownership in their profile.


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## bnoble (Jun 14, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> It is arguably the only question that matters in today's customer driven world


Maybe. But, asking that question independently of everything else that positions that brand in the market is a little misleading. If a brand is seen as a leader in other ways, the fact that it is less customer-friendly in some policies compared to other competitors may not be a problem.

A recent experience with BMW comes to mind. Most of their cars are designed for run-flat tires, including my wife's. Run-flats are more expensive and have a shorter tread life than regular tires, so they are significantly more expensive to own overall. With her car, there is no place to put a spare--the car was designed assuming one would never be needed, saving the weight and space for the tire, jack, etc. So, she really can't put other tires on the car safely. She doesn't have a choice.

Now, if you asked 100 people if taking the choice of run-flat or not away from them was a good idea, maybe the vast majority would say no. But, the vast majority of car buyers are not buying BMW, and BMW does not position itself as a mass-market brand.

Indeed, when my wife called me from the tire shop to tell me about this, she was peeved that she was replacing them so soon and that they were so expensive. My response: "You bought this car for a reason--because you really like driving it. Buy the run flats and don't think twice about it. This is just a part of owning this car. It's a nice sunny day. Get the tires, open the sunroof, and go for a drive. Enjoy it."


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## Fairwinds (Jun 14, 2020)

CrackCorn said:


> This has been one of the worst hijacking of a thread that I've seen in this forum. It went from the OP "taking their ball and going home" because they didn't like the game they signed up for ... to blaming MVC that they didn't do 'enough' during unprecedented times!
> 
> It boils down to knowing what you signed up for and being able to make informed decisions based on the issue presented to you. It's that simple. Take ownership of the problem.



It was the OP who said that Marriott not doing enough during the quarantine was the last straw And is in part why they are leaving.  it’s a conversation that may have drifted, as conversations do. But I should wish the OP farewell. So, happy trails nokaoi9. There is more than one way to vacation and I hope you find a good one. When and If I get fed up with something I’ll leave too.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk


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## turkel (Jun 14, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> I also feel MVC points owners have done better than the weeks owners. And perhaps that was intentional so as to show the value of points system or penalize those pesky weeks owners who haven't bought from MVC or spent $$$$ for enrollment.
> 
> I recommend checking out HGVC to people like the OP who are not happy with Marriott.


As a weeks only owner I disagree with you. I have had to change 2 exchanges and I am completely satisfied with the outcome. It may have cost me more but I didn’t lose anything.

Hilton burned me bad back in 1994 after the Northridge Earthquake I tend to hold a grudge so HGVC is a non option.

TUG members are pretty well informed I doubt many Marriott owners are interested in jumping to an alternate system over MVC response to Covid.

Steve please don’t leave! I totally understand your feelings regarding TUG right now. I have struggled with the same feelings but your input is appreciated and valued by many here!


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## SueDonJ (Jun 14, 2020)

Wow.

It's against TUG Rules, it's actually a personal attack, to ask someone what they own?!?!

Good gravy. You mean that for all these years I could have been reporting the same few Starwood people who sent me DM's telling me what I had to say was worthless in that forum unless I owned in it? That happened with my ownership listed in my profile, and with me admitting that I was offering information specific to Marriott that might be helpful as a contrast!

A reminder from the TUG Rules:

_"*Avoid replying to messages to point out bbs rule infractions*

Leave this to BBS Administrators and Moderators. When you jump in, it makes for even more work on the part of the administrators to clean up the mess. If you feel a message is improper, you may report it to the BBS Staff by clicking on the "report" link at the bottom of the message."_

The reason I'm putting this here is because I seriously think this train has gone way off the track into Crazytown now. If you "Report" posts then they'll be seen by all of the mods/admin, not just those who happen to be reading the thread (which in the Marriott forum usually means only me, in Vistana usually only Denise, etc...) Maybe fresh eyes would see things differently.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 14, 2020)

@Steve Fatula I have learned a lot from long-time MVC posters including yourself about how MVC works and am appreciative of that.

Frankly I am surprised that you would delve into someone’s posting history to mount a personal attack, make blanket allegations about one's opinions (to which they are entitled), and tell stakeholders who have a broader timeshare world view that their comments are irrelevant and unwelcome. This seems out of character for you.

Perhaps there should be a separate MVC system owners only and MVC Corp stakeholder thread for everyone else? That would be a more productive solution than complaining about other people.

Most people I know take a comparison shopper’s mentality when buying expensive items like a car.  How does one you know if a policy or program is good if one can’t measure what the market is doing?

If the process of comparison is somehow perceived as negative please know that it is not intentionally negative nor personal.

Like it or not Vistana and Hyatt are now part of the MVC family. Times change. Perhaps two forums are warranted because it sounds like some people don’t want to hear that their car has issues - they are not looking for another car so want to find ways to enjoy the car they have. That's okay. I will recognize this sensitivity going forward.

Others have a vested interest in understanding how MVC behaves to evaluate their TS relationship direction with MVC. I believe the OP was seeking a market reality check on whether to keep the car. Her title said, “Final Straw.” Obviously she has encountered several situations in which she has not been treated well by MVC policies. Belittling her feelings as one of “entitlement” and “those are the rules, get over it” is not helpful.


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## bogey21 (Jun 14, 2020)

I like Calgal's post.  To a large degree it pretty much reflects my feelings.  That is if you are happy with MVC, enjoy you usage to the fullest.  There is no need to justify yourself.  If you are unhappy enough, bite the bullet and sell.  My decision was to sell but I see no useful purpose in continuing to explain why...

George


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## bazzap (Jun 14, 2020)

As an MVC Weeks owner, not Points although I am enrolled, I do believe that there has been more flexibility offered by MVC with cancelled Points bookings In response to Covid-19.
However, having cancelled my June/July 2020 Weeks bookings prior to the 60 day deadline, I have unrestricted Interval exchange options until 2022.
Availability may well be more challenging than usual, but this is still a fairly good option in the circumstances.


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## turkel (Jun 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Steve Fatula I have learned a lot from long-time MVC posters including yourself about how MVC works and am appreciative of that.
> 
> Frankly I am surprised that you would lurk into someone’s posting history to mount a personal attack, make blanket allegations about one's opinions (to which they are entitled), and tell stakeholders who have a broader timeshare world view that their comments are irrelevant and unwelcome. This seems out of character for you.
> 
> ...


All I can say is I am really disappointed in this post. Steve asked you a question without malice and you clearly didn’t answer. Why?

Its not an attack it’s a simple yes or no. But you have taken it to a whole other level.

 I always find it interesting when the attacker plays the victim. It is just so disheartening that we just can’t disagree without calling names and being down right rude.

Lurker? Really?


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## Dean (Jun 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Like it or not Vistana and Hyatt are now part of the MVC family. Times change. Perhaps two forums are warranted because it sounds like some people don’t want to hear that their car has issues - they are not looking for another car so want to find ways to enjoy the car they have. I will recognize this sensitivity going forward.


Point of order.  Not really a member of MVC at least not at this time, just owned by the same owners big picture. 



> “those are the rules, get over it” is not helpful.


Maybe, maybe not.  However, IMO it is important to understand the rules and that rules have meaning.  Hopefully others reading about all these issues will have a better understanding of their risks and responsibilities going forward.  I'm reminded of a couple of DVC reallocations where people said things like "I knew it could happen but never expected it to, how dare they."  Or "it's been 10 years since the last time so they shouldn't reallocate now."  To take the other side of that argument, there are rules in place including rules to change the rules and one needs to understand that to participate.  Pointing out the rules in place when someone clearly doesn't understand them or ignores them is not inappropriate unto itself.  There are ways to try to get the rules changed and if one wants to go that route, I think they should.

ETA:  One should always strive to deal with the issue and not the person where possible.


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## ljmiii (Jun 14, 2020)

turkel said:


> Steve asked you a question without malice and you clearly didn’t answer. Why?


It isn't as if I wanted to comment on this aspect of the thread but the piling on has to stop.

*Of course* it was a question with malice. He sought to discredit CalGalTraveler's standing as someone entitled to comment on MVC. Since he apparently repeated the question three times it moved on to badgering. As for "lurk" I agree it was inaccurate since there was neither hiding nor ambush. But "...delve into someone’s posting history" would have been all too accurate.

I get that you disagree with her position. I disagree with most of her position. But you seem not to get that she feels that she has been attacked. Threatened and perhaps hurt simply because she expressed an opinion on this forum. And that is unacceptable.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 14, 2020)

Enough.

I see that the issue has been reported and it’s open for any other mod/admin to weigh in if they choose. As a moderator, and as a TUGger who’s been on the receiving end of being questioned as to why my opinion is valid for something I don’t own, it doesn’t seem unfair or against TUG Rules to ask the question. As for calling it “lurking” to look at a TUGger’s profile or posting history to get a sense of how much s/he might already be familiar with what I’m discussing, well, that’s a new one on me. I do it all the time and so don’t many others.

Considering that there are too many reports being generated these days for mods/admin to get in the middle of personality conflicts, my suggestion is to keep to the topic and leave the bickering behind unless you want to see another thread locked.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 14, 2020)

I will edit my post to "delve" and move on.


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## frank808 (Jun 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> That is one of many factors that will cause MF increases, correct. Then you have increased cleaning costs, staff for cleanings, staff for enforcing social distancing, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> As far as inventory goes, due to increased time and requirements on cleaning, Branson (as one example) does not have anywhere near all inventory even open,
> I stupidly thought it would be great to go there the day it re-opened for new bookings. I was mistaken. Due to units being vacant for about 3 months, anyone who has owned a vacant house should know better (I have but did not think of it!). There were a number of issues such as AC not working that took a few days to work out. Vacant properties tend to decay with no usage, often faster than if used.


Situation here at Lakeshore Reserve is they are operating at 70% capacity. It is 100% occupied this past weekend. Staffing seems to be ramping up to full staff here.

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## frank808 (Jun 14, 2020)

Own HGVC, MVC(DP points, enrolled weeks and unenrolled weeks) and DVC. I have been happy that each system has tried to help me as they could. According to the T&C the various systems did NOT have to do anything. 

All 3 systems have offered some form of help to owners. Also all 3 systems will have inventory issues for the next couple of years. Could the Hilton's, Marriott and Disney done more? Sure they could but there has to be a compromise as they will not be able to manage a system where they give away the farm. 

Personally this closure has impacted me the worst in HGVC and DVC. Not much impact in MVC because of the way I use my weeks. Will see how it affects me with MVC 2021 and 2022. I know it will make my usage harder as there will be more people competing for the same times.

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## csodjd (Jun 15, 2020)

frank808 said:


> Personally this closure has impacted me the worst in HGVC and DVC. Not much impact in MVC because of the way I use my weeks. Will see how it affects me with MVC 2021 and 2022. I know it will make my usage harder as there will be more people competing for the same times.


I'm the opposite because I CHOSE to be just an unenrolled weeks owner at MOC, but with HGVC I have points. I was able to cancel my May trip and all the points come back. Whatever isn't used this year I can use next year. Worst case I can convert them to Hilton Honors and have hotel nights (lousy exchange, but still an option). But that's a risk I took in having a week and no points in MVC.


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## nokaoi9 (Jun 15, 2020)

Some of the early comments after my original post speculated there was more to the story and I should just accept the situation.

Admittedly I was pretty heated after my call with Marriott the other day and agree with some comments that I likely shouldn’t have gotten upset as I did.  I also stand by my position of wanting to exit Marriott ownership.  This decision is not based on an isolated incident, but rather IMHO, a deterioration of what I was once very happy to own.

Over the years I have loved my ownership less and less.  When Marriott first rolled out the Destination Club, I didn’t think twice and immediately dropped the couple thousand.  After all, I didn’t want to “miss out on everything Marriott was going to offer in the future.”  After enrolling and seeing that I couldn’t  convert my week to points to cover a low season week at my home resort, I was immediately turned off.  As an owner at Westin Kaanapali, if I were to elect StarOptions instead of using the week, I get the fully 148,100, there is zero skim.  A year or so later, my wife and I were at Newport Coast and offered an explorer package.  Somewhat hesitant knowing we were not interested in buying trust points, we signed up for the package to see what changes would occur over the next year, and had (if memory serves me correctly) twelve months to use the package.  Within about six weeks we had decided on a week, made the reservation, and paid the balance. Approximately two months later, we learned that we were having our first child.  I called Marriott to see if we could cancel or extend the package past the twelve months.  I was immediately told no, we were not allowed to cancel nor extend the date beyond the twelve months.  Not wanting to take a young infant to Newport, we let the week go and forfeited the money.  Last year we were at Ko Olina and decided to attended an owner’s update, curious what changes might be coming with the MVCI/Vistana merger.  The salesperson could not have been any nicer until I asked the following question.  If someone purchased a developer week at Westin Kaanapali, for say $40k, and would want the option to access Marriott properties post merger, how would one go about doing that?  His answer as very simple and quick, they'd have to buy a minimum of 1000 points.  I then asked about Marriott owners being able to access Vistana properties, I was again told that they'd have to buy a 1000 points.  I forget what the exact per price point was at this point, but want to say it would have been ~$15k all in for the 1000 points.  Being owners in both systems, I had no interest in adding points, which immediately rubbed him the wrong way.  He then became very aggressive in front of my wife an daughter, and tried to convince me on how we would be missing out on everything in the future. 

I have loved the vacations we’ve had at Marriott and Vistana properties over the years.  We have seen more and done more by 40 than I would have guessed we'd do in a lifetime.  Having spent between $150k-$200k on purchasing deeded weeks and maintenance fees over the years, do I feel that Marriott could/should have done more given the situation?  Absolutely.  I know MVCI is a business, and ultimately what matters most is the bottom line.  With that said, Yes.  I am relatively certain there’s plenty of inventory that Marriott holds in the trust for Ko Olina,  and while I was not asking for another week at Ko Olina next year, I though it would have been nice for them to offer if there is sufficient inventory.  What I really would have been happy with is the non-restricted certificate to use in Interval International, as I do believe they have the authority to override this.  Between my four different II accounts, I am sitting on 10 accommodation certificates.  My guess is this one from Marriott will not have strong trading power, and is all but worthless.  My frustration is not over the lost week in Hawaii, or the costs that will be lost with it, but ultimately the lack of customer service.  I am tired of the the lies at owner updates, fed up with the never ending money grab of trying to devalue weeks owners and force them into either selling their weeks or buying trust points.  I would hope if you had a strong and loyal customer base, you would want to do what you could to retain and protect that.  I don't feel that is the case with Marriott any longer, and it actually is counterproductive to their long term strategy.


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## win555 (Jun 26, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> My frustration is not over the lost week in Hawaii, or the costs that will be lost with it, but ultimately the lack of customer service.  I am tired of the the lies at owner updates, fed up with the never ending money grab of trying to devalue weeks owners and force them into either selling their weeks or buying trust points.  I would hope if you had a strong and loyal customer base, you would want to do what you could to retain and protect that.  I don't feel that is the case with Marriott any longer, and it actually is counterproductive to their long term strategy.


It feels sad to read about this as you have spent $150k-$200k with MVC. It makes me cautious as a prospective buyer.


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## gwberg (Jun 27, 2020)

Like you I own both Marriott and Vistana. I also own Wyndham. I’ve had a similar bad experience with all three programs. I’ve enjoyed many fine vacations but I’m not going to any more sales presentations (“updates”). 


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## bogey21 (Jun 27, 2020)

win555 said:


> It feels sad to read about this as you have spent $150k-$200k with MVC. It makes me cautious as a prospective buyer.


The secret with owning any TS is to first decide that the MFs provide fair value.  If they do then buy in at a price close to where you think you can sell when you decide to exit...

George


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## controller1 (Jun 27, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> The secret with owning any TS is to first decide that the MFs provide fair value.  If they do then buy in at a price close to where you think you can sell when you decide to exit...
> 
> George



The word "secret" is the key word as several (perhaps many) of us purchased directly from the developer prior to discovering TUG or even knowing there was a resale market.


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## vol_90 (Jun 27, 2020)

Just read the entire tread from the beginning to here.  A great read, entertainment and education for anyone looking to get into timeshares and the value of TUGBBS discussions.  Thanks to all for the input whether I agreed with it or not.

To the OP sorry it doesn't work out for you going forward and believe you will be much happier moving on.  Best of luck to you and your family in future vacation endeavors.  There are many lifetime vacation experiences out there with your family without the need of owning a Marriott timeshare.

IMHO Marriott has done an adequate job trying to mitigate the current COVID-19 situation and I am one happy Marriott Timeshare Owner focused on maximizing my ownership for many years to come. (Disclaimer I do not own anything other than Marriott)

Enjoying my time at the Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club 95 days (March 24th to present) and counting. Thank you MVCI (using 120 day restricted points for under 60 day 30% discount reservations), Interval International (2 Deposit's, 2 AC's and 5 Getaway's) and Redweek.  Leveraging every opportunity to maximize the value of my MVCI portfolio, II accounts and Redweek memberships.

Best of luck to all....


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## MICROZE (Jun 28, 2020)

controller1 said:


> The word "secret" is the key word as several (perhaps many) of us purchased directly from the developer prior to discovering TUG or even knowing there was a resale market.


Some of us [myself included] purchased Developer-Direct after discovering TUG and after discovering Resale. In fact my very first purchase was resale.


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## Luvtoride (Jun 28, 2020)

I’m not sure if this comment belongs in this thread but reading here reminded me of this. 

My wife and I just completed a retirement plan with our Financial Advisor. After reviewing our list of assets, I said to my wife, we forgot to include our Timeshares. She looked at me and said “that’s not an asset it’s a liability”. 


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## gwberg (Jun 28, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 60 days out on II is a terrible policy and @nokaoi9 has a right to be upset about the loss of $2400 MF. IMO MVC is lacking creativity in making this right for their customers. Perhaps they could allow a one time enrollment to points for use next year, or remove the 60 day window (very doable since they own II).
> 
> To compare, Hilton Grand Vacations is treating their owners much better; automatically pushing 2019 banked points to 2021 (which can then be deposited for another 2 years in RCI), longer unrestricted windows to reserve etc. They are trying to find ways to smooth out inventory demand over the next few years and keep owners satisfied. They are also bringing on many new resorts in 2021/22 which will help alleviate inventory demand concerns. I don't hear complaints like this on the HGV forum so there are solutions out there.
> 
> I recognize that HGV and MVC are structured differently but they are not that different; HGVC is effectively the same as an MVC deed plus points enrollment. The biggest difference is that all HGVC deeds are required to be enrolled upon purchase. And HGV doesn't own RCI like MVC owns II. The difference is that MVC is lacking the will to develop creative solutions make this right for their owners. or perhaps they are trying to penalize MVC owners who haven't enrolled?



Small point. I thought Wyndham owns RCI. No?


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## frank808 (Jun 28, 2020)

MICROZE said:


> Some of us [myself included] purchased Developer-Direct after discovering TUG and after discovering Resale. In fact my very first purchase was resale.


It took me over a decade of owning Marriott resale weeks before I bought direct from Marriott. 

Dang you TUG members, if it wasn't for you guys/gals I would have never bought DP points and saved myself the $$. For everyone, that last sentence is a joke. I went in being informed and knew what I wanted to make that purchase work. I am very happy with the purchase I made last year. 

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## gwberg (Jun 28, 2020)

I have 1500 bonus points that expire in September. Besides risking travel, what are my options?


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## Dean (Jun 28, 2020)

controller1 said:


> The word "secret" is the key word as several (perhaps many) of us purchased directly from the developer prior to discovering TUG or even knowing there was a resale market.


It's interesting that anyone would sign a contract and pay tens of thousands of dollars without reading the legal paperwork or doing any independent investigation.  I understand how some get there:  On vacation, sometimes high pressure, gifted sales person, dreaming of future vacations and the like but still.  We often spend weeks if not months investigating the next car purchase which ultimately is a much shorter and less costly commitment even if the price tag is the same.  Certainly in the last 20 years information has been readily available and easy accessible for much of that time. I think if you substitute the word key instead of secret in George's post it'd have the same meaning.  IMO if we choose to make that type of commitment without due diligence, it's really on us but I know personal responsibility isn't popular in today's world. 

I've told this story before but it seems to apply here.  A number of years ago I gave a friend a free stay using my Bluegreen points.  I failed to warn him about the sales process.  He came home telling me he'd bought.  I gave him the information about resale value and the like and suggested he cancel and investigate further but he chose to not cancel which I thought was a mistake but was his choice.  At least he had the information and made the choice, still I felt bad about it.

I've made direct purchases from DVC, Bluegreen and MVC.  All after being well informed about resale and all after owning resale in each system.  All were strategic purchases.  Bluegreen to enroll and get a boatload of qualified points for very little, DVC to get a specific contract size and configuration and 2 MVC, one to get my Grande Ocean weeks qualified years ago and one last year I'll use but also to enroll 7.5 weeks.  The first with MVC didn't work out as I'd planned but wasn't a bad choice, we'll see how the second works out.  DVC was my first in 94 which was before in internet was fully functional.  I participated on timeshares sites in the 90's on Prodigy mostly related to DVC and on TUG in the early years.  Remember resale Sally?


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## controller1 (Jun 28, 2020)

Dean said:


> It's interesting that anyone would sign a contract and pay tens of thousands of dollars without reading the legal paperwork or doing any independent investigation.  I understand how some get there:  On vacation, sometimes high pressure, gifted sales person, dreaming of future vacations and the like but still.  We often spend weeks if not months investigating the next car purchase which ultimately is a much shorter and less costly commitment even if the price tag is the same.  Certainly in the last 20 years information has been readily available and easy accessible for much of that time. I think if you substitute the word key instead of secret in George's post it'd have the same meaning.  IMO if we choose to make that type of commitment without due diligence, it's really on us but I know personal responsibility isn't popular in today's world.



Thanks but I really didn't need to be slapped around!


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## Dean (Jun 28, 2020)

controller1 said:


> Thanks but I really didn't need to be slapped around!


That wasn't my intent, sorry you took it that way.


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## CPNY (Jul 21, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th.  I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date  of less than 60 days from booking.  To say I was furious is an understatement.  How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.  I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II.  On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out.  It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


If you have a one bedroom SVV 1 bedroom 44K SO in Key West or Bella let me know


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2020)

CPNY said:


> If you have a one bedroom SVV 1 bedroom 44K SO in Key West or Bella let me know


I thought you had enough ?


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## CPNY (Jul 22, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I thought you had enough ?


I may be adding more to get rid of some ha.


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## burg1121 (Jul 22, 2020)

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Pretty much everybody was and still is affected by the virus. Lost 9 days in USVI at the Ritz. Then 1 week in Southern France. Life sucks then you die 
 Someday life will get back to normal till the next virus comes along.


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## Laura19 (Jul 22, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th.  I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date  of less than 60 days from booking.  To say I was furious is an understatement.  How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.  I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II.  On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out.  It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


I completely understand why you've had it.  Other posters have talked about knowing the risk of booking and accepting the risk.  And hey, it's only one year of maintenance fees.  On April 30th, I used two years of points to book two weeks on the beach.  I checked the cancellation policy and understood what my options were if I needed to cancel.  I decided I could accept the cancellation policy and made the reservations.  Today I found out that Marriott changed the cancellation policy on July 2nd, TWO days after I could have cancelled and booked the points.  And the new cancellation policy doesn't begin to give me the options the previous policy had.  Today I found out that Marriott can change their cancellation policy at any time, and the policy in effect when you cancel is the policy that applies to your cancellation.  They might change the policy later, but can't promise anything will change or that it will apply to previously cancelled reservations.  Marriott also told me they had no need to inform reservation holders, that I should have been checking their website to see the new policy.  So yes, I too have had it.  Is this the only thing that is making me walk away?  No.  It's the conversion to points and the fact that timeshare owners had to pay to enroll.  It's their total screw-up when my father transferred the timeshare to me which cost us an entire year of usage - we still had to pay the annual fee and they admitted they screwed up.  But they said they couldn't do anything about it.  Hey, it's just one year of maintenance fees.  What's the big deal - you have the next year and the next year.  It's suddenly being the lowest on the totem pole for exchanging my timeshare for another location.  Forget getting into a nice location even if you have the points, the premier owners get the advantage.  Should they get the advantage because they've bought into MVC more? Maybe, but I feel like a victim of a pyramid scheme. I have no trust in this company.


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## aland0524 (Jul 22, 2020)

vol_90 said:


> Enjoying my time at the Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club 95 days (March 24th to present) and counting. Thank you MVCI (using 120 day restricted points for under 60 day 30% discount reservations), Interval International (2 Deposit's, 2 AC's and 5 Getaway's) and Redweek. Leveraging every opportunity to maximize the value of my MVCI portfolio, II accounts and Redweek memberships.


Wow, I'm impressed at how you figured out how to get 95 days at Ko Olina using a cocktail of MVCI, II and Redweek, particularly 2 ACs from II.  I don't think I've ever seen any Marriott properties - much less Hawaii properties - available on Accommodation Certificates - at least the many ( I currently have about 6 ACs from II) that I have don't have anything meaningful.  What's the secret?  (The only good properties I've seen using ACs is an occasional availability at the Marriott properties in Spain.  Otherwise, nada.)  You clearly have figured out how to maximize your timeshare ownerships...


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## vol_90 (Jul 22, 2020)

aland0524 said:


> Wow, I'm impressed at how you figured out how to get 95 days at Ko Olina using a cocktail of MVCI, II and Redweek, particularly 2 ACs from II.  I don't think I've ever seen any Marriott properties - much less Hawaii properties - available on Accommodation Certificates - at least the many ( I currently have about 6 ACs from II) that I have don't have anything meaningful.  What's the secret?  (The only good properties I've seen using ACs is an occasional availability at the Marriott properties in Spain.  Otherwise, nada.)  You clearly have figured out how to maximize your timeshare ownerships...


Only way Marriott Ko Olina shows up on II Accommodation Certificates or summer week Getaways is due to the Corona Virus situation.  This will not likely ever happen again.  Fortunate to be at the right place at the right time and was monitoring II on a regular basis.  Now at 118 Ko Olina nights and counting.

I have seen many Marriott Orlando, Desert Springs and summer Park City weeks show up on AC's if you monitor closely and often.  Especially soon after they are deposited into your II account.


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## Pamplemousse (Jul 22, 2020)

Laura19 said:


> I completely understand why you've had it.  Other posters have talked about knowing the risk of booking and accepting the risk.  And hey, it's only one year of maintenance fees.  On April 30th, I used two years of points to book two weeks on the beach.  I checked the cancellation policy and understood what my options were if I needed to cancel.  I decided I could accept the cancellation policy and made the reservations.  Today I found out that Marriott changed the cancellation policy on July 2nd, TWO days after I could have cancelled and booked the points.  And the new cancellation policy doesn't begin to give me the options the previous policy had.  Today I found out that Marriott can change their cancellation policy at any time, and the policy in effect when you cancel is the policy that applies to your cancellation.  They might change the policy later, but can't promise anything will change or that it will apply to previously cancelled reservations.  Marriott also told me they had no need to inform reservation holders, that I should have been checking their website to see the new policy.  So yes, I too have had it.  Is this the only thing that is making me walk away?  No.  It's the conversion to points and the fact that timeshare owners had to pay to enroll.  It's their total screw-up when my father transferred the timeshare to me which cost us an entire year of usage - we still had to pay the annual fee and they admitted they screwed up.  But they said they couldn't do anything about it.  Hey, it's just one year of maintenance fees.  What's the big deal - you have the next year and the next year.  It's suddenly being the lowest on the totem pole for exchanging my timeshare for another location.  Forget getting into a nice location even if you have the points, the premier owners get the advantage.  Should they get the advantage because they've bought into MVC more? Maybe, but I feel like a victim of a pyramid scheme. I have no trust in this company.



Could you share what the policy change on 7/2 was?  I can tell what is different now.
Hope things work out for you- good luck.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2020)

Laura19 said:


> I completely understand why you've had it.  Other posters have talked about knowing the risk of booking and accepting the risk.  And hey, it's only one year of maintenance fees.  On April 30th, I used two years of points to book two weeks on the beach.  I checked the cancellation policy and understood what my options were if I needed to cancel.  I decided I could accept the cancellation policy and made the reservations.  Today I found out that Marriott changed the cancellation policy on July 2nd, TWO days after I could have cancelled and booked the points.  And the new cancellation policy doesn't begin to give me the options the previous policy had.  Today I found out that Marriott can change their cancellation policy at any time, and the policy in effect when you cancel is the policy that applies to your cancellation.  They might change the policy later, but can't promise anything will change or that it will apply to previously cancelled reservations.  Marriott also told me they had no need to inform reservation holders, that I should have been checking their website to see the new policy.  So yes, I too have had it.  Is this the only thing that is making me walk away?  No.  It's the conversion to points and the fact that timeshare owners had to pay to enroll.  It's their total screw-up when my father transferred the timeshare to me which cost us an entire year of usage - we still had to pay the annual fee and they admitted they screwed up.  But they said they couldn't do anything about it.  Hey, it's just one year of maintenance fees.  What's the big deal - you have the next year and the next year.  It's suddenly being the lowest on the totem pole for exchanging my timeshare for another location.  Forget getting into a nice location even if you have the points, the premier owners get the advantage.  Should they get the advantage because they've bought into MVC more? Maybe, but I feel like a victim of a pyramid scheme. I have no trust in this company.


What was the policy change on July 2nd? I am not aware of any change in the cancellation policy at the beginning of July.


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## Dean (Jul 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> What was the policy change on July 2nd? I am not aware of any change in the cancellation policy at the beginning of July.


I can't see anything on the points side other than at some point they pushed the cutoff date back from July to August on the holding accounts points.  They did update the weeks deposit options on 1 July.  Maybe the previous poster can elaborate on what they see is different. 

But yes the policies are subject to change, esp any added flexibility over the actual rules.


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## elked12 (Jul 23, 2020)

aland0524 said:


> Wow, I'm impressed at how you figured out how to get 95 days at Ko Olina using a cocktail of MVCI, II and Redweek, particularly 2 ACs from II.  I don't think I've ever seen any Marriott properties - much less Hawaii properties - available on Accommodation Certificates - at least the many ( I currently have about 6 ACs from II) that I have don't have anything meaningful.  What's the secret?  (The only good properties I've seen using ACs is an occasional availability at the Marriott properties in Spain.  Otherwise, nada.)  You clearly have figured out how to maximize your timeshare ownerships...


I see some of the Orlando resorts in there all the time. Just have to be flexible on dates


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## dioxide45 (Jul 23, 2020)

elked12 said:


> I see some of the Orlando resorts in there all the time. Just have to be flexible on dates


Up till a few years ago, Marriott properties on ACs were more common. Then a few years back they started blocking them for the most part. They could still be had as last minute off season weeks on an AC. The Marriott inventory in ACs now is unprecedented. We have certainly taken advantage of it. You can't beat $260 for a week at Oceana Palms. Lots of Orlando 2BR units. It is going to be hard when things get more back to normal and we can't stay in 2BR units as easily or as cheaply.


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## CPNY (Jul 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Up till a few years ago, Marriott properties on ACs were more common. Then a few years back they started blocking them for the most part. They could still be had as last minute off season weeks on an AC. The Marriott inventory in ACs now is unprecedented. We have certainly taken advantage of it. You can't beat $260 for a week at Oceana Palms. Lots of Orlando 2BR units. It is going to be hard when things get more back to normal and we can't stay in 2BR units as easily or as cheaply.


It’s going to be very upsetting when that happens.


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## frank808 (Jul 23, 2020)

CPNY said:


> It’s going to be very upsetting when that happens.


That is right. Got to use AC or getaways for my Lakeshore 2br and 3br weeks. I know I will miss them.

Last time I saw a MKO 1br or larger week with an AC was about 5 years ago. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## nokaoi9 (Jul 24, 2020)

For what it’s worth, I added E-Plus to two of the weeks I cancelled outside of 60 days prior to check-in, I didn’t add for the week that sparked the tipping point for me to cancel.  This morning I can see with one bedrooms at Ko-Olina for next spring and summer using a 2021 SVV week, however I cannot see those same weeks with E-Plus expiring November 2022 on the same account which used a 2020 SVV week, nor can I see it with an E-Plus from an MKO 2020 week E-Plus expiring August 2022.  

Some of you have said regarding my original post that I’m picking up my toys and got my home, which is fair and mostly true.  Seeing what I’m seeing this morning just adds to the frustration.  Why am I unable to see the same weeks available from an E-Plus week with zero restrictions and I’ve already paid $218 ($159 exchange fee plus $59 for E-Plus) for, than I am using a 2021 week?


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## Pamplemousse (Jul 24, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> For what it’s worth, I added E-Plus to two of the weeks I cancelled outside of 60 days prior to check-in, I didn’t add for the week that sparked the tipping point for me to cancel.  This morning I can see with one bedrooms at Ko-Olina for next spring and summer using a 2021 SVV week, however I cannot see those same weeks with E-Plus expiring November 2022 on the same account which used a 2020 SVV week, nor can I see it with an E-Plus from an MKO 2020 week E-Plus expiring August 2022.
> 
> Some of you have said regarding my original post that I’m picking up my toys and got my home, which is fair and mostly true.  Seeing what I’m seeing this morning just adds to the frustration.  Why am I unable to see the same weeks available from an E-Plus week with zero restrictions and I’ve already paid $218 ($159 exchange fee plus $59 for E-Plus) for, than I am using a 2021 week?



II says eplus trading power is based on your original week- so my question is are the weeks you are comparing exactly the same? Are they the same size, same resort, same week/TDI, all deposited with about the same lead time from expiration?

In my experience (and this was 4 years ago) I didn’t see a difference between eplus retrade and another deposited week when they had the same attributes.

If the new deposit and eplus are the same I would call II or perhaps contact the II rep Mark Delcampo (tugmembers@intervalintl.com) to see if eplus could be used to confirm the exchange you want.


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## nokaoi9 (Jul 25, 2020)

Yes, weeks being compared are identical.  Week originally exchanged was a 2020 usage 2BR platinum week at SVV.  I tested what was available with a 2021 SVV platinum usage week if I wanted to do an immediate exchange, which is where I saw the 1BR MKO availability.  I immediately checked the E-Plus ready to make an exchange and the weeks were not available.  When I checked with the 2021 week again, they were still there.  Since I have two E-Plus weeks and a Marriott AC to use next year, I elected not to exchange my 2021 week.  Disappointing to see availability with the 2021 week, but not a 2020 identical week with E-Plus.


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## klpca (Jul 25, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> Yes, weeks being compared are identical.  Week originally exchanged was a 2020 usage 2BR platinum week at SVV.  I tested what was available with a 2021 SVV platinum usage week if I wanted to do an immediate exchange, which is where I saw the 1BR MKO availability.  I immediately checked the E-Plus ready to make an exchange and the weeks were not available.  When I checked with the 2021 week again, they were still there.  Since I have two E-Plus weeks and a Marriott AC to use next year, I elected not to exchange my 2021 week.  Disappointing to see availability with the 2021 week, but not a 2020 identical week with E-Plus.


It's a bit late for me at the moment but there are threads that have noted the same thing that you are seeing - reduced trading power using eplus. I'll see if I can find you some links, not that it would matter. I just wanted to confirm what you are seeing. I'm not sure why - maybe it was people trading out twelve months on the first trade, essentially wasting that first trade and just holding a week that they had no intention of using, then doing a lot of manual searches for something better? I really don't know but it absolutely happens.


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## Dean (Jul 25, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> Yes, weeks being compared are identical.  Week originally exchanged was a 2020 usage 2BR platinum week at SVV.  I tested what was available with a 2021 SVV platinum usage week if I wanted to do an immediate exchange, which is where I saw the 1BR MKO availability.  I immediately checked the E-Plus ready to make an exchange and the weeks were not available.  When I checked with the 2021 week again, they were still there.  Since I have two E-Plus weeks and a Marriott AC to use next year, I elected not to exchange my 2021 week.  Disappointing to see availability with the 2021 week, but not a 2020 identical week with E-Plus.


There are other factors in comparing the 2 weeks besides the ownership type.  To be identical they'd have to be the same timeshare week and they'd both have to be deposited with the same lead time.  Don't let the TDI chart fool you as it is not standardized.  A TDI of 150 in Orlando is still pretty modest trade power so the lead time and exact week there can make a big difference, at times, even with the internal trading preference.

I know others have said the week should retain the same trade power though I can't speak to that but it would surprise me if it did.  You should contact the II rep that was recommended to you and see if you can get some answers and help with this.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 25, 2020)

_A reminder that the TUG Rules prohibit advertising in the public forums, which I take to mean that questions/comments in a thread having to do with buying/selling/renting particular inventory isn't allowed. If I can read it and know what you're wanting to buy from/sell to someone else in the thread, it's going to be deleted.

Several posts have been deleted here - feel free to take your conversation to private messages. _


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## pymadore (Jul 25, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> After almost 15 years of ownership, which along the way has included losing a parent, getting married, and having my beautiful daughter, I am officially done with Marriott.
> 
> Earlier this week Hawaii extended the 14 day quarantine thru the end of July, we had a check in date of July 25th.  I called Marriott yesterday to explore my options, and was told that the resort is still open, or I could deposit my week into II and would have two years from date of deposit to use the week, with a check-in date  of less than 60 days from booking.  To say I was furious is an understatement.  How in good faith can they say the resort is “open” when all of the below are closed, and knowing people from the mainland would be under a 14 day quarantine?  While not thrilled with the II option, I feel it is something I could have lived with, had it not been limited to the booking window of being less than 60 days.  I’m likely not going to be able to book, nor would I prefer to book a nice trip (like to Hawaii) in under 60 days, which means my ~$2400 maintenance fee will turn into nothing more than a glorified getaway or AC exchange with II.  On a positive note, I will no longer have to worry about managing four II memberships (Marriott corporate account, non corporate account, and two Vistana), and will save ~$8000 per year in maintenance fees, and not have to contemplate another enrollment fee when the MVCI/Vistana program is eventually rolled out.  It really is sad to see what Marriott has become since we first purchased almost 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


Please understand that the USA is now on many countries travel advisory/do not travel lists. As a Canadian, the US border is closed for non-essential travel, and the same is true for non-essential travellers to Canada from the US. This pandemic is very serious, with the US faring the worst in the world. Leisure travel is a major factor in spreading this virus, along with not following proper safety protocols (masks, social distancing, hand washing, etc) This will pass eventually, with the creation of reliable vaccines, so please be patient.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2020)

pymadore said:


> Please understand that the USA is now on many countries travel advisory/do not travel lists. As a Canadian, the US border is closed for non-essential travel, and the same is true for non-essential travellers to Canada from the US. This pandemic is very serious, with the US faring the worst in the world. Leisure travel is a major factor in spreading this virus, along with not following proper safety protocols (masks, social distancing, hand washing, etc) This will pass eventually, with the creation of reliable vaccines, so please be patient.


People can now travel back and forth across the border. Justin Bieber did


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## CPNY (Jul 25, 2020)

pymadore said:


> Please understand that the USA is now on many countries travel advisory/do not travel lists. As a Canadian, the US border is closed for non-essential travel, and the same is true for non-essential travellers to Canada from the US. This pandemic is very serious, with the US faring the worst in the world. Leisure travel is a major factor in spreading this virus, along with not following proper safety protocols (masks, social distancing, hand washing, etc) This will pass eventually, with the creation of reliable vaccines, so please be patient.


I don’t know. I think the questionable testing and reporting tactics are increasing faulty data. Let’s not be shocked at the new cases. I’m booking a trip to an island as we speak, take precautions


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## klpca (Jul 25, 2020)

nokaoi9 said:


> For what it’s worth, I added E-Plus to two of the weeks I cancelled outside of 60 days prior to check-in, I didn’t add for the week that sparked the tipping point for me to cancel.  This morning I can see with one bedrooms at Ko-Olina for next spring and summer using a 2021 SVV week, however I cannot see those same weeks with E-Plus expiring November 2022 on the same account which used a 2020 SVV week, nor can I see it with an E-Plus from an MKO 2020 week E-Plus expiring August 2022.
> 
> Some of you have said regarding my original post that I’m picking up my toys and got my home, which is fair and mostly true.  Seeing what I’m seeing this morning just adds to the frustration.  Why am I unable to see the same weeks available from an E-Plus week with zero restrictions and I’ve already paid $218 ($159 exchange fee plus $59 for E-Plus) for, than I am using a 2021 week?





klpca said:


> It's a bit late for me at the moment but there are threads that have noted the same thing that you are seeing - reduced trading power using eplus. I'll see if I can find you some links, not that it would matter. I just wanted to confirm what you are seeing. I'm not sure why - maybe it was people trading out twelve months on the first trade, essentially wasting that first trade and just holding a week that they had no intention of using, then doing a lot of manual searches for something better? I really don't know but it absolutely happens.


Here are some threads about eplus/trading power reduction. FWIW, I really like eplus but we are also pretty easygoing about where and when we stay. We aren't locked into a school schedule and with the exception of resort fees, which I hate and try to avoid, we will stay pretty much anywhere if the quality is reasonable. If you are searching for a specific resort, I can see where eplus could be pretty frustrating. In 2016 I wanted to eplus into the Westin in Princeville for my daughter's honeymoon. My goodness, that took weeks of diligent searching, usually in the middle of the night, lol, but in the end I got it. Anyway here are some threads discussing the change in trade power. I hope that this works out for you.









						Interval Eplus -- Observation
					

Recently I exchanged my Gaslamp Plaza studio for last minute Hona Koa 2 BR. I wrote in another post about my surprise at losing my original expiration date for exchage. Decided to bite the bullet today and did first e-plus exchange to furthest out date (01/15/19), as was suggested to push out...




					tugbbs.com
				











						Interval Eplus - weakened trading power?
					

It’s been my firsthand experience that Eplus now weakens the trading power behind your deposit.  Had anyone else had this experience or it just my bad luck.  It seems that lately Interval also has now upped the ante and is holding on to a heightened trading power requirement for their desirable...




					tugbbs.com
				











						Different result with E-plus
					

I bought e-plus for an exchange on July 11-18, 2016. This is a specific example of what I saw some while ago. I started my e-plus retrade and found in Sedona just one resort: a studio on PMX at Bell Rock from August 20-27. The resort I exchanged was a 2 bedroom. Then, just to compare, I used...




					tugbbs.com


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## pchung6 (Jul 25, 2020)

Not sure what will happen to Vistana/Marriott, but I just got an offer for $10k for 2br Westin Kierland Platinum.  I'm tempting but holding this off just because i don't know where is world is heading to and I need to hold on to the cash i might need in few years.


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> Not sure what will happen to Vistana/Marriott, but I just got an offer for $10k for 2br Westin Kierland Platinum.  I'm tempting but holding this off just because i don't know where is world is heading to and I need to hold on to the cash i might need in few years.


I’ll must say if I can, that’s the lowest I’ve seen that. Who knows what will happen to glorious MVC and VSE. It may be hard to sell developer prices the next year or so, if not more. Wonder if all of those who paid top dollar are kicking themselves.


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## pymadore (Jul 26, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> People can now travel back and forth across the border. Justin Bieber did


From Forbes - 20 July 2020:
Canada’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently announced on July 16, 2020 that Canadian and U.S. officials will extend the border closure between the two countries until at least August 21, with more extensions possible. The border will continue to be closed to all non-essential travel. Essential travel will continue to be allowed, and includes trade shipments, essential workers and approved temporary foreign workers.
The border closure (which was introduced on March 18, 2020) was supposed to expire on July 21.
"Once again, Canada and the United States have agreed to extend the current border measures by one month until August 21, and we're going to keep working closely with our American neighbors to keep people safe on both sides of the border,” Trudeau announced.


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## Dean (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I’ll must say if I can, that’s the lowest I’ve seen that. Who knows what will happen to glorious MVC and VSE. It may be hard to sell developer prices the next year or so, if not more. Wonder if all of those who paid top dollar are kicking themselves.


For retail timeshares are sold, not bought.  Companies like Bluegreen, Diamond and Wyndham have since proven that they can sell a product retail worth almost nothing from a resale standpoint.  I don't see the current information changing those dynamics related to resale prices.  Now it might be more difficult to sell because of the economics and of course not being able to do in person tours right now will have a big impact.


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## bogey21 (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Wonder if all of those who paid top dollar are kicking themselves.



If they aren't now, they will be soon.  No matter what the stock market or price of houses indicates tough times are going to be around for a couple of years.  Expensive non-necessities like TimeShares will be hurt the most...

George


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## jabberwocky (Jul 26, 2020)

pymadore said:


> From Forbes - 20 July 2020:
> Canada’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently announced on July 16, 2020 that Canadian and U.S. officials will extend the border closure between the two countries until at least August 21, with more extensions possible. The border will continue to be closed to all non-essential travel. Essential travel will continue to be allowed, and includes trade shipments, essential workers and approved temporary foreign workers.
> The border closure (which was introduced on March 18, 2020) was supposed to expire on July 21.
> "Once again, Canada and the United States have agreed to extend the current border measures by one month until August 21, and we're going to keep working closely with our American neighbors to keep people safe on both sides of the border,” Trudeau announced.


This agreement only covers land border crossings. The US has not closed the border to air travel for Canadians.


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## pchung6 (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Wonder if all of those who paid top dollar are kicking themselves.


Just hope those spent a lot not regretting and not take their anger out on us and this forum as we already learned resale and didn’t pay much to begin with. I also saw an MKO EOY OV on eBay for $3k just last week. Wondering how low it can go, especially we are approaching MF season, and when it will stop bleeding.


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> Just hope those spent a lot not regretting and not take their anger out on us and this forum as we already learned resale and didn’t pay much to begin with. I also saw an MKO EOY OV on eBay for $3k just last week. Wondering how low it can go, especially we are approaching MF season, and when it will stop bleeding.


Some will say there are good reasons to add on at developer pricing of 50K plus. Maybe, maybe not. It’s not something I plan on doing. I paid developer prices once, never again. IF a common currency program comes out and I need to make a developer purchase, I wouldn’t be playing in that pool. Luckily I like what I own.


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## Fredflintstone (Jul 26, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> People can now travel back and forth across the border. Justin Bieber did



Justin Bieber is big people. The rules are for us little people 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## davidvel (Jul 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Justin Bieber is big people. The rules are for us little people
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The border (North and South) is not closed if you can afford a plane ticket.


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## Fredflintstone (Jul 26, 2020)

davidvel said:


> The border (North and South) is not closed if you can afford a plane ticket.



True, but I think the 14 day quarantine applies upon your return.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

I feel for the OP being so upset over COVID. As someone who had it, my mindset is a bit different. I’m feeling better, so I’m ready to travel and take advantage of lower crowds. Hope most people here feel the same. Of course it’s completely understandable that there are many who do not want to travel during the pandemic and that’s good.

I can see being frustrated, but let’s face it. After a long delay, they came around and offered something flexible. The next few years will be difficult in booking. My advice has always been to take the opportunity to try a new destination, even if it’s something less desirable for you. if you can’t have fun on vacation, maybe you should walk away.

As far as Hawaii, the resorts are open. Just because you have to quarantine for 14 days that doesn’t mean the resort isn’t letting you check in. Look at harborside resort. The Atlantis was closed but the harborside was open. Even now with the Bahamas shutting down commercial air travel from the US, the resort is open taking new guests. If you can swim there you have a place to stay with a new reservation. I had 160K SO restricted this year, I lost 25K with a sale, I just used 95K to book St John Westin. Guess who doesn’t have to deal with restricted options next year?


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## Fredflintstone (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I feel for the OP being so upset over COVID. As someone who had it, my mindset is a bit different. I’m feeling better, so I’m ready to travel and take advantage of lower crowds. Hope most people here feel the same. Of course it’s completely understandable that there are many who do not want to travel during the pandemic and that’s good.
> 
> I can see being frustrated, but let’s face it. After a long delay, they came around and offered something flexible. The next few years will be difficult in booking. My advice has always been to take the opportunity to try a new destination, even if it’s something less desirable for you. if you can’t have fun on vacation, maybe you should walk away.
> 
> As far as Hawaii, the resorts are open. Just because you have to quarantine for 14 days that doesn’t mean the resort isn’t letting you check in. Look at harborside resort. The Atlantis was closed but the harborside was open. Even now with the Bahamas shutting down commercial air travel from the US, the resort is open taking new guests. If you can swim there you have a place to stay with a new reservation. I had 160K SO restricted this year, I lost 25K with a sale, I just used 95K to book St John Westin. Guess who doesn’t have to deal with restricted options next year?



I agree. Travel is fun. It’s all how you make it work. However, my main concern is I book my trip and the rules shift to where I am not sure if I can go or not. Yes, travel cancellation helps but it’s a real bummer to cancel because the rules change again. Take Hawaii. I booked for December but recently cancelled. That’s because the mandatory 14 day quarantine was extended to September 1. After that, proving you are negative by seeing a doctor 72 hours before flying removes the quarantine requirement. If I thought that was written in stone, I would not have cancelled. I am not sure. They can change or extend at anytime. I think they have upped the quarantine dates twice and might even do it again.

I plan to travel once I see consistency in rules. My guess is this will take awhile. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree. Travel is fun. It’s all how you make it work. However, my main concern is I book my trip and the rules shift to where I am not sure if I can go or not. Yes, travel cancellation helps but it’s a real bummer to cancel because the rules change again. Take Hawaii. I booked for December but recently cancelled. That’s because the mandatory 14 day quarantine was extended to September 1. After that, proving you are negative by seeing a doctor 72 hours before flying removes the quarantine requirement. If I thought that was written in stone, I would not have cancelled. I am not sure. They can change or extend at anytime. I think they have upped the quarantine dates twice and might even do it again.
> 
> I plan to travel once I see consistency in rules. My guess is this will take awhile.
> 
> ...


I agree. It’s easy for me to book since I had to cancel many times that I’m booking with restricted options and airfare credits from previous cancelled flights. So, nothing is coming out of pocket.


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## Fredflintstone (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I agree. It’s easy for me to book since I had to cancel many times that I’m booking with restricted options and airfare credits from previous cancelled flights. So, nothing is coming out of pocket.



That’s the way to go. I think 2021 will see rules stabilize. After that, I plan to travel like a school boy pigging out on candy. I miss it and can’t wait to go again. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> That’s the way to go. I think 2021 will see rules stabilize. After that, I plan to travel like a school boy pigging out on candy. I miss it and can’t wait to go again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agreed. I’m also looking to take advantage of destinations I would never normally go to. If I end up with restricted options if this St John trip doesn’t work out and I see availability in Arizona in July, I’ll go. Is it ideal? No! But it’s available and I’d rather sit in a resort pool than let SO disappear because I didn’t use them. Guess what? I’ll probably have fun too lol. I’m just bummed I didn’t deposit in interval before banking. That would have been better


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## Fredflintstone (Jul 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Agreed. I’m also looking to take advantage of destinations I would never normally go to. If I end up with restricted options if this St John trip doesn’t work out and I see availability in Arizona in July, I’ll go. Is it ideal? No! But it’s available and I’d rather sit in a resort pool than let SO disappear because I didn’t use them. Guess what? I’ll probably have fun too lol. I’m just bummed I didn’t deposit in interval before banking. That would have been better



Yes. That’s a good plan. From what I have read the TS points have been flexible which they should be given the situation. I’m with you. I’ll travel anywhere. Each one is always a super adventure. Yes, that would have been better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jul 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes. That’s a good plan. From what I have read the TS points have been flexible which they should be given the situation. I’m with you. I’ll travel anywhere. Each one is always a super adventure. Yes, that would have been better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You live and learn. Next pandemic I’ll plan accordingly LOL. So far 4 trips booked and cancelled. Aye aye


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## pymadore (Aug 1, 2020)

jabberwocky said:


> This agreement only covers land border crossings. The US has not closed the border to air travel for Canadians.


True, but everyone entering MUST self isolate for 14 days when landing in Canada from an international destination.


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## pymadore (Aug 1, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Justin Bieber is big people. The rules are for us little people
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Bieber is Canadian. Any Canadian citizen may return to Canada at any time, and must self isolate for 14 days upon arrival.


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## needvaca (Aug 14, 2020)

CPNY said:


> If you have a one bedroom SVV 1 bedroom 44K SO in Key West or Bella let me know


I just saw a 1BR SVV key west pop up on eBay. $1 bid so far.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2020)

needvaca said:


> I just saw a 1BR SVV key west pop up on eBay. $1 bid so far.



What is the advantage of this compared to a 2 BDRM EOY in MF? Other advantage?


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## needvaca (Aug 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is the advantage of this compared to a 2 BDRM EOY in MF? Other advantage?


I’ve also used mine to trade in interval
And if it goes for $1, it’s a bargain


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## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2020)

needvaca said:


> I’ve also used mine to trade in interval
> And if it goes for $1, it’s a bargain



The listing shows MF is $770. Is that accurate? If so, then $770 for 44k SOs is not a bargain from my perspective. It’s also a difficult amount to use. If the intention is to use in II, then SDO is a better purchase. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## needvaca (Aug 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> The listing shows MF is $770. Is that accurate? If so, then $770 for 44k SOs is not a bargain from my perspective. It’s also a difficult amount to use. If the intention is to use in II, then SDO is a better purchase.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


$150 of that is the VSN fee, which only applies to your first Vistana ownership. I have other weeks, so my maintenance fee is $620. 
I guess this is only a good value as an add on to other VSN ownerships for more staroptions


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## needvaca (Aug 15, 2020)

Anyway, I posted it, because I recalled some people looking for it in the past


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## dioxide45 (Aug 15, 2020)

It won't go for $1, certainly not that it has been advertised on TUG. The last one on Ebay was bid up to over $600.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> The listing shows MF is $770. Is that accurate? If so, then $770 for 44k SOs is not a bargain from my perspective. It’s also a difficult amount to use. If the intention is to use in II, then SDO is a better purchase.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't think you would ever want it as a first ownership. But adding to an account that has existing SOs, it is pretty good.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> It won't go for $1, certainly not that it has been advertised on TUG. The last one on Ebay was bid up to over $600.


No no it def won’t go for a buck ESPECIALLY after they posted it here. I was hoping that wouldn’t happen.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 15, 2020)

CPNY said:


> No no it def won’t go for a buck ESPECIALLY after they posted it here. I was hoping that wouldn’t happen.


There are 21 watching the auction now.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2020)

Deleted


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> There are 21 watching the auction now.


Yeah, probably thanks to the posting of the listing here haha.


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## needvaca (Aug 15, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Yeah, probably thanks to the posting of the listing here haha.


Sorry CPNY, I’ll pm you next time


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2020)

needvaca said:


> Sorry CPNY, I’ll pm you next time


You’re good. I appreciate you looking out. I actually saw it the day it was posted.


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## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2020)

needvaca said:


> $150 of that is the VSN fee, which only applies to your first Vistana ownership. I have other weeks, so my maintenance fee is $620.
> I guess this is only a good value as an add on to other VSN ownerships for more staroptions



SVV 44k @ $620 MF = $0.014 per SO
WKV 148k @ $1646 MF = $0.011 per SO

It would take a long time to justify the WKV (though seems to be less now with significantly lower values this year) over SVV. I'd think SVV would be good for a ~5 year ownership plan and then give it away, assuming it works with your plans. Otherwise, there are better long-term purchases.


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## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think you would ever want it as a first ownership. But adding to an account that has existing SOs, it is pretty good.



How is it "pretty good"? It's still an odd amount of SOs, unless you plan on using it in Orlando (in which case there are likely better/less expensive options).


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## dioxide45 (Aug 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> How is it "pretty good"? It's still an odd amount of SOs, unless you plan on using it in Orlando (in which case there are likely better/less expensive options).


Since you can bank StarOptions, any leftovers from an "odd amount" can be banked and combined with StarOptions the next year. We have an 81K annual and 44K EOY SVV and have no problem using them all up and never letting any go to waste. There is of course a fee to bank, so that has to be taken into consideration, but if done correctly you really only have to bank every other year.


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## wjarcher (Aug 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> SVV 44k @ $620 MF = $0.014 per SO
> WKV 148k @ $1646 MF = $0.011 per SO
> 
> It would take a long time to justify the WKV (though seems to be less now with significantly lower values this year) over SVV. I'd think SVV would be good for a ~5 year ownership plan and then give it away, assuming it works with your plans. Otherwise, there are better long-term purchases.



If the goal is to buy starOptions, to me, it is far better to buy SVV when you can almost get it for free when WKV costs over 12k (let us say WKV won't depreciate over time).  You can do a lot with 12k every year which easily can cover the difference in SO cost.


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## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2020)

wjarcher said:


> If the goal is to buy starOptions, to me, it is far better to buy SVV when you can almost get it for free when WKV costs over 12k (let us say WKV won't depreciate over time).  You can do a lot with 12k every year which easily can cover the difference in SO cost.



That's always an option mentioned in these discussions.


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## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Since you can bank StarOptions, any leftovers from an "odd amount" can be banked and combined with StarOptions the next year. We have an 81K annual and 44K EOY SVV and have no problem using them all up and never letting any go to waste. There is of course a fee to bank, so that has to be taken into consideration, but if done correctly you really only have to bank every other year.



Eh, I don't like the idea of planning on banking as part of the justification for purchase.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 16, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> The truth is the truth.  I paid approximately $13,000 each for my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club and Heritage Weeks, all pre-construction.  Almost immediately Marriott started tinkering big time with the benefits attached to my Weeks all to their benefit and all to my detriment.  I finally got pissed and sold.  Fortunately I sold before they destroyed all the value in my Weeks and I came out about whole. What would I own today if I hadn't sold?  How much would I get if  I had waited and sold today?  What are the MFs today vs when I sold my Weeks?  My point is that the prudent thing to do when a company (and I'm not only talking Marriott) starts down the path of devaluing what you bought for their benefit  run as far away from them as fast as you can...
> 
> I acknowledge that Marriott has top of the line Resorts, maybe the best out there.  My gripe is that over the years Marriott has made too many changes in their program, all to their benefit and to the detriment of their customers.   In addition they have allowed their Customer Service, which once was excellent,  to deteriorate dramatically...
> 
> George


I feel very much like you do.  I have sold half of our weeks and plan to sell two of the remaining three at some point in the not too distant future.  I have owned since 1987 and Marriott is very different now.  I think it is hard for those who bought in the last 15 years to understand what it was like originally.


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2020)

BocaBoy said:


> I feel very much like you do.  I have sold half of our weeks and plan to sell two of the remaining three at some point in the not too distant future.  I have owned since 1987 and Marriott is very different now.  I think it is hard for those who bought in the last 15 years to understand what it was like originally.


It’s gotten worse? That was the initial “worry” for us “vistana people”. I know not much has changed but things seem ok so far. I do like the last minute VSN Escapes they added, which I hear DC program has with discounted stays last minute. That’s a change I can get behind.


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## Dean (Aug 16, 2020)

CPNY said:


> It’s gotten worse? That was the initial “worry” for us “vistana people”. I know not much has changed but things seem ok so far. I do like the last minute VSN Escapes they added, which I hear DC program has with discounted stays last minute. That’s a change I can get behind.


I haven't owned quite as long as those above, about 21 years.  Things have changed with Marriott, DVC which I owned since 94 and with every other timeshare I own or have owned.  Others can weigh in on what has changed from their perspective.  From a contractual standpoint I'm not sure there have been that many changes on the weeks side.  Fees have gone up and there have been changes on the rewards side.  Frankly, I discount any rewards components as peripheral to the timeshare system no matter now important it was to some people's decisions and usage.  The 13 month reservation window was added along with the DC system.  Some resorts were removed from the system, no major loss to the system IMO.  All in all I feel the changes within Marriott during the 24 years I've followed them from then to now are quite positive.  I think they system overall is much better than when I bought in with a lot more resorts that interest me and a much more flexible system.  While I haven't followed the other system, I'd be willing to bet they've changed over the years also and likely not all for the better. I don't think any of that gives us a good perspective on what to expect with any combination plans.  It really depends on how much they want to keep the various systems intact vs having a combined program going forward.  I know there are some hurdles to a more integrated program and it will be interesting how all this works out.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 16, 2020)

Dean said:


> I haven't owned quite as long as those above, about 21 years.  Things have changed with Marriott, DVC which I owned since 94 and with every other timeshare I own or have owned.  Others can weigh in on what has changed from their perspective.  From a contractual standpoint I'm not sure there have been that many changes on the weeks side.  Fees have gone up and there have been changes on the rewards side.  Frankly, I discount any rewards components as peripheral to the timeshare system no matter now important it was to some people's decisions and usage.  The 13 month reservation window was added along with the DC system.  Some resorts were removed from the system, no major loss to the system IMO.  All in all I feel the changes within Marriott during the 24 years I've followed them from then to now are quite positive.  I think they system overall is much better than when I bought in with a lot more resorts that interest me and a much more flexible system.  While I haven't followed the other system, I'd be willing to bet they've changed over the years also and likely not all for the better. I don't think any of that gives us a good perspective on what to expect with any combination plans.  It really depends on how much they want to keep the various systems intact vs having a combined program going forward.  I know there are some hurdles to a more integrated program and it will be interesting how all this works out.


I believe the 13 month reservation window on the weeks side predates DC. Many years in fact. When we bought in 2007, the 13 month weeks reservation window was already in place.

As for @bogey21, the biggest beef there seems to be the change in the rental and resale programs. At one time Marriott would take only a 20% commission from the sale of your week and also only 20% from the actual proceeds of what your week rented for. You wouldn't get paid until after they rented out your weeks and knew exactly how much they made. They later changed both to 40% commission, but again with rentals it was based on actual rental revenue. Now, the weeks rental program is that they just give you a number, take it or leave it. They could rent for huge profit or of course could also take a loss if you your week doesn't rent.


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## bogey21 (Aug 16, 2020)

Dean said:


> .All in all I feel the changes within Marriott during the 24 years I've followed them from then to now are quite positive.


Some feel the changes are positive, some don't.  That is life.  The one thing that is not debatable is the erosion of value for those who bought directly from Marriott during the last 20 years or so.  I was able to sell the 4 Weeks I bought back in the 80s for a profit 4 years or so later.  Today it is a given that when the time comes to sell, those who buy directly from Marriott will more than likely suffer (a possibly large) loss...

George


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## bogey21 (Aug 16, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> As for @bogey21, the biggest beef there seems to be the change in the rental and resale programs. At one time Marriott would take only a 20% commission from the sale of your week and also only 20% from the actual proceeds of what your week rented for.



One other thing that was massively devalued was the ability to convert your Week into enough Rewards Points to get a week at a nice Marriott hotel, airfare to get there and a rental car.  Clearly you can't do that today....

George


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> One other thing that was massively devalued was the ability to convert your Week into enough Rewards Points to get a week at a nice Marriott hotel, airfare to get there and a rental car.  Clearly you can't do that today....
> 
> George


That’s the truth. The conversion is so awful.


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 16, 2020)

COVID-19 has interfered with my II exchanges.  I had to cancel a cruise and have used E-PLUS three times for my initial exchange.   So, this last retrade will be the last.  Therefore, we will visit Marrott’s Grand Chateau for the first time in late October, 2020.  I wish E-plus was more flexible, but this is the first year in 20 years of timesharing that I have been forced to cancel timeshare reservations.  HGVC has been much easier to work with than MVC, however, I am still pleased with MVC during these trying times.


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## Dean (Aug 16, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I believe the 13 month reservation window on the weeks side predates DC. Many years in fact. When we bought in 2007, the 13 month weeks reservation window was already in place.
> 
> As for @bogey21, the biggest beef there seems to be the change in the rental and resale programs. At one time Marriott would take only a 20% commission from the sale of your week and also only 20% from the actual proceeds of what your week rented for. You wouldn't get paid until after they rented out your weeks and knew exactly how much they made. They later changed both to 40% commission, but again with rentals it was based on actual rental revenue. Now, the weeks rental program is that they just give you a number, take it or leave it. They could rent for huge profit or of course could also take a loss if you your week doesn't rent.


Yes, it does predate the DC system.  I'm not sure the exact time but I believe it was after I bought in 99. 


bogey21 said:


> Some feel the changes are positive, some don't.  That is life.  The one thing that is not debatable is the erosion of value for those who bought directly from Marriott during the last 20 years or so.  I was able to sell the 4 Weeks I bought back in the 80s for a profit 4 years or so later.  Today it is a given that when the time comes to sell, those who buy directly from Marriott will more than likely suffer (a possibly large) loss...
> 
> George


But that was part of my point.  It seems you were relying on external options that were not contractual and from when I started looking around 95 or 96, I didn't see the rewards system as a great option and it's worse now and likely to continue to decline. 


bogey21 said:


> One other thing that was massively devalued was the ability to convert your Week into enough Rewards Points to get a week at a nice Marriott hotel, airfare to get there and a rental car.  Clearly you can't do that today....
> 
> George


There are still potential reward points options and if one had that option previously, it's still there even though it's not the deal it once was.  I would suggest that if owning MVC doesn't make sense without the points system, it really didn't make sense with it either.   YMMV.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 18, 2020)

I sometimes get impatient with those who argue things have gotten better when they did not buy until 10-20 years or more after the product was launched.  They do not remember the earlier years, when maintenance fees were well controlled (even going down more than once prior to 2000.  They do not remember when owners were treated so much better than now.  They do not remember the company sales themes focusing on MR points and rental opportunities, and the times when those points could buy so much.  They do not remember how Marriott's hostility to weeks ownership after the DC introduction devalued our ownerships.  I bought about the time Bogey did and agree with almost everything he says.  They do not treat us as real owners any more.  I could go on and on.

I think they have a good product now, although it is extraordinarily expensive, but those of us who bought in the early years still feel the pain.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 18, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I believe the 13 month reservation window on the weeks side predates DC. Many years in fact. When we bought in 2007, the 13 month weeks reservation window was already in place.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 18, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I believe the 13 month reservation window on the weeks side predates DC. Many years in fact. When we bought in 2007, the 13 month weeks reservation window was already in place.


I bought in 1987 and I believe the 13-week option was there from the start.  If it wasn't, it was added very early on.


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2020)

BocaBoy said:


> I bought in 1987 and I believe the 13-week option was there from the start.  If it wasn't, it was added very early on.


It was not there when Grande Ocean opened and I don't believe it was there when I bought late 90's.


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2020)

BocaBoy said:


> I sometimes get impatient with those who argue things have gotten better when they did not buy until 10-20 years or more after the product was launched.  They do not remember the earlier years, when maintenance fees were well controlled (even going down more than once prior to 2000.  They do not remember when owners were treated so much better than now.  They do not remember the company sales themes focusing on MR points and rental opportunities, and the times when those points could buy so much.  They do not remember how Marriott's hostility to weeks ownership after the DC introduction devalued our ownerships.  I bought about the time Bogey did and agree with almost everything he says.  They do not treat us as real owners any more.  I could go on and on.
> 
> I think they have a good product now, although it is extraordinarily expensive, but those of us who bought in the early years still feel the pain.


I'm curious as to what contractual issues have gotten worse.


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## Fredflintstone (Aug 18, 2020)

BocaBoy said:


> I sometimes get impatient with those who argue things have gotten better when they did not buy until 10-20 years or more after the product was launched. They do not remember the earlier years, when maintenance fees were well controlled (even going down more than once prior to 2000. They do not remember when owners were treated so much better than now. They do not remember the company sales themes focusing on MR points and rental opportunities, and the times when those points could buy so much. They do not remember how Marriott's hostility to weeks ownership after the DC introduction devalued our ownerships. I bought about the time Bogey did and agree with almost everything he says. They do not treat us as real owners any more. I could go on and on.
> 
> I think they have a good product now, although it is extraordinarily expensive, but those of us who bought in the early years still feel the pain.



IMO, the reason why some people become dissatisfied is because they were promised a certain level of benefits at a certain price at the time they bought. The problem I see is the contract they signed states terms can change at anytime for any reason at the resorts sole decretion. This creates a power imbalance where resorts can change or do whatever they want leaving the owner simply as a ramp for expenses. In other words, who cares about the owner, we got them hooked with an open ended contract in our favour. They are here to pay and pay and pay.

Just my opinion but this opinion stills drives me to continue to rent timeshares.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bogey21 (Aug 18, 2020)

BocaBoy said:


> I sometimes get impatient with those who argue things have gotten better when they did not buy until 10-20 years or more after the product was launched.  They do not remember the earlier years, when maintenance fees were well controlled (even going down more than once prior to 2000.  *They do not remember when owners were treated so much better than now.*


Let me give you a concrete example.  When I decided to sell my Sabal Palms Week I had Marriott do it for me.  At the time they put Sellers in a queue as they wouldn't sell a Week for less than the price they established for Sabal Palms resales.  They did, however, let you offer Incentives to prospective purchasers.  They had a list you could choose from.  During the 3 years I waited to get to the top of the queue (note that they would always tell you where you stood in the queue) Marriott rented my Week for me.  They counseled me on what Week would rent the best and obtained that Week for me.  Each time they rented it for the full 7 days and my rental income less their 20% commission always exceeded my MF.   That was the Marriott Boca and I remember...

George


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## ski_sierra (Aug 18, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> IMO, the reason why some people become dissatisfied is because they were promised a certain level of benefits at a certain price at the time they bought. The problem I see is the contract they signed states terms can change at anytime for any reason at the resorts sole decretion. This creates a power imbalance where resorts can change or do whatever they want leaving the owner simply as a ramp for expenses. In other words, who cares about the owner, we got them hooked with an open ended contract in our favour. They are here to pay and pay and pay.
> 
> Just my opinion but this opinion stills drives me to continue to rent timeshares.



yes. This is a great observation. I do wish timeshare were like credit card reward programs. If I no longer see value in the program, I can cancel it. It keeps the banks/travel providers on their toes and continue to provide value to customers.

If they don't, then we will cancel. I cancelled 4x Marriott credit cards this year.


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## Fredflintstone (Aug 18, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> yes. This is a great observation. I do wish timeshare were like credit card reward programs. If I no longer see value in the program, I can cancel it. It keeps the banks/travel providers on their toes and continue to provide value to customers.
> 
> If they don't, then we will cancel. I cancelled 4x Marriott credit cards this year.



Totally agree. You see, competition keeps everyone on their toes. If they get out of line, they get punished by losing consumers. With timeshares, your contract eliminates the competitive factor and eliminates the need to remain fair, balanced and competitive. The result is erosion of services and increase in expense. Also, with timeshares, the resort does not get punished for increasing costs and reducing services, they simply pass the punishment on to the other owners through “bad debt expense”. That’s why they don’t care about losing owners through default. You better believe if it did affect their (versus the owners) bottom line, they would be much more geared to being responsible and providing the best services possible.

Renting gives that much needed competition. That’s why I find I pay less (most times than MF), demand more (I have been successful getting the best condo because they are trying to woo me to sign up) and can walk away or not return if I don’t like their terms, services or costs. Plus, I am not bound to others who take a hit if I walk away when I rent.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ (Aug 18, 2020)

I agree with both Bogey and BocaBoy about the loss/devaluation of the direct-purchase Marriott Rewards exchange benefit. In our very early years the number of MR Points we'd get for our 3BR SurfWatch Weeks was more than enough to exchange for one of the "Around The World" (or whatever they called it) packages that included airline tickets (not frequent-flyer miles,) 7 nights in a top-tier hotel and a car rental. Our biggest regret is that we didn't take advantage of that option before it disappeared. And of course as the years have gone on there's been increased continuing devaluation in the Bonvoy (formerly Marriott Rewards) program, BUT! consideration has to be given to the fact that there has always had to be reciprocity for MR/Bonvoy Points usage between MVC and Marriott, Int'l (both before and after MVC coming under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella.) It's always appeared to me that MI calls the shots and with them effectively holding the timeshare segment under its thumb, there's not much MVC could do before/after without US paying for it. Sure, I wish it was as valuable a benefit as when we first bought, but I don't necessarily fault MVC for the fact that it's not.

I never had experience with the Rental-By-Marriott program but do understand criticism of it more than that of the MR/Bonvoy program. Rentals by Marriott have become so devalued and such a cash grab for them that I don't think even the prime-est of prime inventory is worth giving to them. I think this devaluation did more to contribute to the disparity between direct-purchase and external resales because it forced owners to establish and use an external rental market, effectively forcing the online timeshare rental/resale market to explode.

On the whole, though, we are still very happy owners and like very much the way our ownership has been enhanced by the introduction of the Destination Club. That's not to say that every owner should feel the same as we do because every owner has their own reasons for purchasing in the first place. Still, I'm always saddened to read that longtime, knowledgeable owners have decided it's time for them to sell because they're unhappy with the company's direction. Always.


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## Dean (Aug 19, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I agree with both Bogey and BocaBoy about the loss/devaluation of the direct-purchase Marriott Rewards exchange benefit. In our very early years the number of MR Points we'd get for our 3BR SurfWatch Weeks was more than enough to exchange for one of the "Around The World" (or whatever they called it) packages that included airline tickets (not frequent-flyer miles,) 7 nights in a top-tier hotel and a car rental. Our biggest regret is that we didn't take advantage of that option before it disappeared. And of course as the years have gone on there's been increased continuing devaluation in the Bonvoy (formerly Marriott Rewards) program, BUT! consideration has to be given to the fact that there has always had to be reciprocity for MR/Bonvoy Points usage between MVC and Marriott, Int'l (both before and after MVC coming under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella.) It's always appeared to me that MI calls the shots and with them effectively holding the timeshare segment under its thumb, there's not much MVC could do before/after without US paying for it. Sure, I wish it was as valuable a benefit as when we first bought, but I don't necessarily fault MVC for the fact that it's not.
> 
> I never had experience with the Rental-By-Marriott program but do understand criticism of it more than that of the MR/Bonvoy program. Rentals by Marriott have become so devalued and such a cash grab for them that I don't think even the prime-est of prime inventory is worth giving to them. I think this devaluation did more to contribute to the disparity between direct-purchase and external resales because it forced owners to establish and use an external rental market, effectively forcing the online timeshare rental/resale market to explode.
> 
> On the whole, though, we are still very happy owners and like very much the way our ownership has been enhanced by the introduction of the Destination Club. That's not to say that every owner should feel the same as we do because every owner has their own reasons for purchasing in the first place. Still, I'm always saddened to read that longtime, knowledgeable owners have decided it's time for them to sell because they're unhappy with the company's direction. Always.


Here's my thoughts though, things have changed over time and that was predictable.  We've gone from fixed week/fixed units to floating seasons reserved largely by mail in early on at 12 months to the 13 month reservation option to DC/Trust and the reality is that some of these changes might be negative for some and positive for others.  Over that time there have been 2 rounds of resorts exit the system and a ton of additional resorts come on board, what if one had bought spicebush or swallowtail from MVC for exchange priority and then they were pushed out?  Since no one has mentioned any contractual changes, I'll assume those here don't have any concerns there.  I think there are some arguments to be made for availability related to the 12/13 month reservation option and the Points system though these both benefit me personally.

No one can argue that the rewards system hasn't changed for the worse either internally or with it's MVC interaction.  Change is inevitable.  IMO no one should ever buy a timeshare where it doesn't make sense without including the peripheral non contractual components esp a FF miles type program or even then if it's so marginal that modest changes make it not workable for them.  That doesn't mean they won't be missed though.  Certainly life changes and sometimes the combination of the individual's situation and the system make them grow far enough apart such that they aren't compatible any more and we all take that risk up from whether we considered it or not.  Thus IMO if rewards changes, rental program or sales program changes (or any combination) were the main reason it's now not a viable system for the individual it never was truly a good choice to buy in.  Do we miss things that have change for the worse, certainly if we thought highly of them and they're worse now, I would think so.


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