# Cancel-Rebook Process for VIP Discounts to End



## Ron2 (Mar 1, 2014)

I have tried and failed on 3 separate occasions to cancel and rebook Bonnet Creek reservations during the discount period. I figured it was because they were all holiday weeks and either Wyndham or some other owner grabbed them before I could. The fact that they were instantly gone made me suspicious that Wyndham may be taking them for Extra Holidays or over bookings. I asked a Wyndham vacation councilor if Wyndham could possibly be taking cancellations for their purposes and was told absolutely not. However, she did tell me that with the new reservation system that’s coming soon, the cancel-rebook process will become a thing of the past because there will be a “wait list” that will utilize all cancellations. Since the cancel-rebook process never was an actual VIP benefit but rather a glitch in the reservation system, I guess we shouldn’t complain. Possibly the winners here will be the non-VIP and resale owners who put their names on the wait lists.


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## Sandy VDH (Mar 1, 2014)

That won't impact me much, as I don't try to cancel and rebook if there is NO available inventory.  I am not willing to risk my reservation with the chance that I could get it for 1/2 off.  I usually only use the 50% off when I book at exactly the 60 day mark.


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## ronparise (Mar 1, 2014)

Ron2 said:


> I have tried and failed on 3 separate occasions to cancel and rebook Bonnet Creek reservations during the discount period. I figured it was because they were all holiday weeks and either Wyndham or some other owner grabbed them before I could. The fact that they were instantly gone made me suspicious that Wyndham may be taking them for Extra Holidays or over bookings. I asked a Wyndham vacation councilor if Wyndham could possibly be taking cancellations for their purposes and was told absolutely not. However, she did tell me that with the new reservation system that’s coming soon, the cancel-rebook process will become a thing of the past because there will be a “wait list” that will utilize all cancellations. Since the cancel-rebook process never was an actual VIP benefit but rather a glitch in the reservation system, I guess we shouldn’t complain. Possibly the winners here will be the non-VIP and resale owners who put their names on the wait lists.



We've talked about this possibility for a long time... I guess we'll know pretty soon

There will be people that complain if this happens, There are folks that bought from the developer because the salesmen taught them how to use this loophole.  It may have never been a VIP benefit, but it was sure sold as if it was.


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## am1 (Mar 1, 2014)

There is a secret to the process.  But more times than not the rooms are lost.  Do not cancel what you cannot afford to lose. 

Apparently the new system still has glitches.  Just like the current one.


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## csxjohn (Mar 1, 2014)

It seems easy to me but I'm still trying to learn the Wyndham system.

If there is no availability showing, how could you expect to cancel and re-book?

I'm thinking there is no availability because all units for that week are taken and if they are, then it follows that there are people with requests in for that week and those requests would be filled instantly when you cancel.

Am I looking at this correctly?


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## lcml11 (Mar 1, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> It seems easy to me but I'm still trying to learn the Wyndham system.
> 
> If there is no availability showing, how could you expect to cancel and re-book?
> 
> ...



You are more or less looking at this like I do.  If something comes up where I have a existing reservation and another one shows up in the discount window, then I book it then cancel the existing one.  

I think it is true that the book cancel rebook trick has been questionable for awhile now.


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## Roger830 (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> There are folks that bought from the developer because the salesmen taught them how to use this loophole.  It may have never been a VIP benefit, but it was sure sold as if it was.



Definitely true.

I met a couple last year that went to an owner's meeting on how to best use points, then upgraded to vip for that benefit. They did use the benefit for their current stay at Sea Gardens and were happy with Wyndham even though they had paid about $17,000 for each block of points. 

They looked to be in their 80's, and Wyndham still badged them to buy more points.


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## ronparise (Mar 1, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> It seems easy to me but I'm still trying to learn the Wyndham system.
> 
> If there is no availability showing, how could you expect to cancel and re-book?
> 
> ...



John

There is no wait list now. So what VIP owners do is make a reservation months in advance, and in the 60 day window cancel it. then immediately go to the reservations page and book it right back, but this time with their VIP discount

The guys that really work the system make two reservations early on; a studio or one bedroom, and a 2 or 3 bedroom.  in the upgrade window, they cancel and rebook the small unit. then cancel the large unit, then upgrade the small unit to the now available large unit...then rebook the small unit

The end result can be as dramatic as getting a 3 bedroom unit and a studio unit for the price of one studio

If a wait list comes to be. the cancellations will go to the wait list and this practice will end.


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## ronparise (Mar 1, 2014)

am1 said:


> There is a secret to the process.  But more times than not the rooms are lost.  Do not cancel what you cannot afford to lose.
> 
> Apparently the new system still has glitches.  Just like the current one.



There is no secret, and I think you are wrong regarding the chances of doing it successfully.  I was successful 9 out of 10 tries two months ago.

I also was able to pick up 3 cancellations in the 60 day window.. so I finished the exercise ahead by 2

Apologies to the two owners that lost their reservations to me, and curses to the one that got mine.


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## csxjohn (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> John
> 
> There is no wait list now. So what VIP owners do is make a reservation months in advance, and in the 60 day window cancel it. then immediately go to the reservations page and book it right back, but this time with their VIP discount
> 
> ...



Thank you, I did not realize that there is no current wait list.  I can see now that a lot of folks will not be happy if it come to being.

I'm in line to inherit half a million points (current VIP) from friends if I outlive them so I'm trying to learn as much as I can so I can decide if I want them if that time comes.


I'm going to save this thread because this is truely a good "trick."


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## lcml11 (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> John
> 
> There is no wait list now. So what VIP owners do is make a reservation months in advance, and in the 60 day window cancel it. then immediately go to the reservations page and book it right back, but this time with their VIP discount
> 
> ...



It should continue to work at resorts that are not in demand or in off seasons.  But the catch 22 is that for these reservations, you can just skip the initial bookings and go straight to the booking in the discount window.  This would be of some, but not much, value to a rentor that has a customer that wants certain dates in the off-season periods.

A good example would be Myrtle Beach in January.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> John
> 
> There is no wait list now. So what VIP owners do is make a reservation months in advance, and in the 60 day window cancel it. then immediately go to the reservations page and book it right back, but this time with their VIP discount
> 
> ...



Ron's description of the cancel rebook is accurate in many cases. However, we are all making assumptions on how a waitlist might function.

Will it cost some amount to add a request to the waitlist? Will owners be limited to a certain amount of listings based upon the number of points they have, or the number of developer points that they have? What will stop mega-renters from filling the waitlists with  their hoped for rebookings?

Clever people find ways to loophole any system. And who will be the first to find them? The Wyndham sales persons, so they can use it as a sales tool.

Time will tell what a waitlist will do and, the unintended consequences of it.

Jim


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## lcml11 (Mar 1, 2014)

jebloomquist said:


> Ron's description of the cancel rebook is accurate in many cases. However, we are all making assumptions on how a waitlist might function.
> 
> Will it cost some amount to add a request to the waitlist? Will owners be limited to a certain amount of listings based upon the number of points they have, or the number of developer points that they have? What will stop mega-renters from filling the waitlists with  their hoped for rebookings?
> 
> ...




If memory serves your point on the mega rentors just putting their name on the waitlist(s) for the ones they want was brought up awhile ago by one mega rentor poster.  Would not even begin to figure out where this could be found.  

If there is no fee and no limitation on the number of wait list reservations that can had at any given point, then it will not hurt mega rentors at all. 

If points are frozen to cover the wait list reservation or a limited number of wait list entries are permitted at one time, then I think you may be right.

I do not think if a wait list comes, it will be a big end run for mega rentors to just put their names everywhere.

Depends who you talk to at Corporate Wyndham,  some have told me it will not be a true wait list if it comes to pass, just a place you can go to see where there is expected inventory and where there is expected to be little or no inventory.


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## ronparise (Mar 1, 2014)

jebloomquist said:


> Ron's description of the cancel rebook is accurate in many cases. However, we are all making assumptions on how a waitlist might function.
> 
> Will it cost some amount to add a request to the waitlist? Will owners be limited to a certain amount of listings based upon the number of points they have, or the number of developer points that they have? What will stop mega-renters from filling the waitlists with  their hoped for rebookings?
> 
> ...



Jim is exactly right. There will always be loopholes to exploit..and clever people to find them.  I just hope Im clever enough (or that Jim shares his secrets with me)

 Wyndhams sister timeshare,  Worldmark doesnt offer discounts to anyone but they do bonus time for availability within 15 days of check in.  They also have a waitlist...But at 15 days the waitlist ends. There are all kinds of rules to prevent someone from cancelling their long standing reservation and rebooking it as bonus time...but it still happens. Contrary to popular opinion there are clever worldmark owners that have uncovered the loopholes to do it


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## lcml11 (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Jim is exactly right. There will always be loopholes to exploit..and clever people to find them.  I just hope Im clever enough (or that Jim shares his secrets with me)
> 
> Wyndhams sister timeshare,  Worldmark doesnt offer discounts to anyone but they do bonus time for availability within 15 days of check in.  They also have a waitlist...But at 15 days the waitlist ends. There are all kinds of rules to prevent someone from cancelling their long standing reservation and rebooking it as bonus time...but it still happens. Contrary to popular opinion there are clever worldmark owners that have uncovered the loopholes to do it



Ron is right, the net effect will probably be to take low point owners and/or the less informed right out of this game to the extent they are in it now.  Which may not be that many in the way of the world.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 1, 2014)

If the system changes greatly, and you want to know what the new loopholes are, just go to an owners update. The sales persons will be telling you all about them. It's in their best interest to sell you on them.


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## Don40 (Mar 1, 2014)

Being an owner for 15 years now I have seen many changes in (Fairfield, Wyndham) system.  If you are a business person I would not plan on the "benefits" being there 10 years from now, so a fantastic loophole today can dry up next year. if that loophole was your profit then you are now headed for bankruptcy there are stories of multi million point owners losing everything.

I loved the days of the 28K deposits, figured I would live in a timeshare for a year once I retire 10 years down the road.  That is gone, now VIP upgrades are great but not promised into the future.  Fixed weeks have all but vanished in the timeshare world and who knows points might vanish in another decade.  What is fact today might be not available tomorrow.  WYN could be sold and we will have to deal with a whole new company making their own rules.

Best we can do is enjoy today and plan for tomorrow.


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## lcml11 (Mar 1, 2014)

Don40 said:


> Being an owner for 15 years now I have seen many changes in (Fairfield, Wyndham) system.  If you are a business person I would not plan on the "benefits" being there 10 years from now, so a fantastic loophole today can dry up next year. if that loophole was your profit then you are now headed for bankruptcy there are stories of multi million point owners losing everything.
> 
> I loved the days of the 28K deposits, figured I would live in a timeshare for a year once I retire 10 years down the road.  That is gone, now VIP upgrades are great but not promised into the future.  Fixed weeks have all but vanished in the timeshare world and who knows points might vanish in another decade.  What is fact today might be not available tomorrow.  WYN could be sold and we will have to deal with a whole new company making their own rules.
> 
> Best we can do is enjoy today and plan for tomorrow.



You may be more right than you think.  I saw one sanctioned Wyndham Release, do not remember where, that was talking about Club Wyndham Pass becoming the role model for a new generation of timeshare whatever.


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## cotraveller (Mar 1, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Worldmark doesnt offer discounts to anyone but they do bonus time for availability within 15 days of check in.  They also have a waitlist...But at 15 days the waitlist ends. There are all kinds of rules to prevent someone from cancelling their long standing reservation and rebooking it as bonus time...but it still happens. Contrary to popular opinion there are clever worldmark owners that have uncovered the loopholes to do it



Shhhhhhh.


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## Rent_Share (Mar 2, 2014)

I am sure there is outrage that a defect in the reservation system, that was pitched as a feature  by corporate sales to extort hundreds of thousands in additional developer sales might be going away.

Wyndham has no loyalty to the owners that employ them as the management company, only to maximize the share value to line their own pockets through stock options.


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## ronparise (Mar 2, 2014)

Rent_Share said:


> I am sure there is outrage that a defect in the reservation system, that was pitched as a feature  by corporate sales to extort hundreds of thousands in additional developer sales might be going away.
> 
> Wyndham has no loyalty to the owners that employ them as the management company, only to maximize the share value to line their own pockets through stock options.



And thats the way it should be... We are Wyndhams customers. They developed the properties and sell them to us (or the folks that bought from Wyndham sell to us) and through our HOAs, we  hire them to run the resorts we now own.  We are the source of their income. I happen to believe that they want happy satisfied customers and at least part of their strategy is to keep us happy, and to foster a mutual loyalty. 

 If you disagree or just dont like the job that they are doing, either sell what you own and go somewhere else, or find enough  other owners to band together to fire them as manager. As you know thats whats going on at WMowners.com....with little success Id say. There's just not enough owners that agree with you.


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## lcml11 (Mar 2, 2014)

Rent_Share said:


> I am sure there is outrage that a defect in the reservation system, that was pitched as a feature  by corporate sales to extort hundreds of thousands in additional developer sales might be going away.
> 
> Wyndham has no loyalty to the owners that employ them as the management company, only to maximize the share value to line their own pockets through stock options.



People keep assuming it was a program defect and forget this operates mostly to the benifit of the Mega Rentor.  Wyndham is the biggest of them all.

People are also assuming it is going away.  I would not assume this.  The nature of the industry is that they have 60 day and under vacancies that they would prefer to be used.  If there are not taker that does not help anyone.

I would not be in any hurry to jump to conclusions.


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## capital city (Mar 2, 2014)

lcml11 said:


> People keep assuming it was a program defect and forget this operates mostly to the benifit of the Mega Rentor.  Wyndham is the biggest of them all.
> 
> People are also assuming it is going away.  I would not assume this.  The nature of the industry is that they have 60 day and under vacancies that they would prefer to be used.  If there are not taker that does not help anyone.
> 
> I would not be in any hurry to jump to conclusions.



I don't think its the 60 day or less discount that they are worried about. Its the cancel and rebook, people reserving at 10 months with idea that they will cancel and rebook. I realize its a BIG deal to the mega renters but does it really make sense to anybody that your able to cancel a reservation and then rebook it for half the amount? Then possibly upgrade? 

I understand if there is availability just like if there is a discount on a hotel room or if the Southwest flight I have booked goes down I can cancel and buy the same thing for less but that's because there is an abundance of availability.

It only makes sense to have a waiting list, why should you have to live on the computer checking for cancellations if you just happened to forget to get up a 7am to book your stay? Wyndham probably would have already done that if it didn't cost money to add or redo the system with no benefit to them


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## ronparise (Mar 2, 2014)

capital city said:


> I don't think its the 60 day or less discount that they are worried about. Its the cancel and rebook, people reserving at 10 months with idea that they will cancel and rebook. I realize its a BIG deal to the mega renters but does it really make sense to anybody that your able to cancel a reservation and then rebook it for half the amount? Then possibly upgrade?
> 
> I understand if there is availability just like if there is a discount on a hotel room or if the Southwest flight I have booked goes down I can cancel and buy the same thing for less but that's because there is an abundance of availability.
> 
> It only makes sense to have a waiting list, why should you have to live on the computer checking for cancellations if you just happened to forget to get up a 7am to book your stay? Wyndham probably would have already done that if it didn't cost money to add or redo the system with no benefit to them



The cancel and rebook trick is an advantage to the guy that uses his ownership for his own vacations too...

But  doesnt hurt the non vip owners at all when its done.  If I cant cancel and rebook I just wont, and the place still stays booked. no inventory is freed up. so there is nothing to go to a wait list.  Where cancelling and rebooking could hurt  is later at all the other resorts.  

When I cancel and rebook I generate some cancelled points, that Im going to use somewhere else, thereby reducing that inventory ..Thats where the harm is done. 

My question is, where do those "extra" cancelled points come from?  I suspect an audit would show that they come from Wyndhams unsold inventory.. As we move closer to a "sold out" state. or if Wyndham does a closer job of managing unsold inventory with something akin to "just in time" production to manage inventory....there will be a problem to be solved. ie too many points for too few reservations... And one obvious solution will be to end the cancel and rebook game.

Its coming we just dont know when


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## Bigrob (Mar 2, 2014)

ronparise said:


> The cancel and rebook trick is an advantage to the guy that uses his ownership for his own vacations too...
> 
> But  doesnt hurt the non vip owners at all when its done.  If I cant cancel and rebook I just wont, and the place still stays booked. no inventory is freed up. so there is nothing to go to a wait list.  Where cancelling and rebooking could hurt  is later at all the other resorts.
> 
> My question is, where do those "extra" cancelled points come from?  I suspect an audit would show that they come from Wyndhams unsold inventory..




I would guess that a surprising amount of these extra "cancelled" points comes from the millions of points that expire from Wyndham owners that are not actively managing their accounts and let them expire worthless (which we would probably find to be a much higher percentage than we think). 

And some owners have already figured out an approach if the long-rumored "waitlist" were to come to pass. It may actually end up giving them a competitive advantage as there is a barrier to entry for the strategy.


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## slabeaume (Mar 2, 2014)

Curious, I would assume most of the waitlisted inventory would come within the 60 day mark (especially around the 30 day cancel by date).  So it would be advantageous for VIPS to book what they want 10 months out and waitlist it, too.  Then if their waitlist comes in the 60 day window, book it at their VIP discount.  I think I would waitlist everything then!


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## lcml11 (Mar 2, 2014)

ronparise said:


> The cancel and rebook trick is an advantage to the guy that uses his ownership for his own vacations too...
> 
> But  doesnt hurt the non vip owners at all when its done.  If I cant cancel and rebook I just wont, and the place still stays booked. no inventory is freed up. so there is nothing to go to a wait list.  Where cancelling and rebooking could hurt  is later at all the other resorts.
> 
> ...



Or, to expand uses of points into non-Wyndham Timeshare activities.  The key at the end of the day is how many real rooms go unused where and in what timeframes.


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## uscav8r (Mar 2, 2014)

slabeaume said:


> Curious, I would assume most of the waitlisted inventory would come within the 60 day mark (especially around the 30 day cancel by date).  So it would be advantageous for VIPS to book what they want 10 months out and waitlist it, too.  Then if their waitlist comes in the 60 day window, book it at their VIP discount.  I think I would waitlist everything then!



It doesn't quite work like the Worldmark wait list. 

According to the Wyndham website the wait list is not continuous up to the 60 day window. You do not request a specific type of room, but you do specify the resort. It is simply to get a callback during a modified ARP window from 11 1/2 to 10 months out. You can only use regular use year points if you get this call, and if there still happens to be availability at that resort. 

Cancelled and pooled credits,  cannot be used for a wait list reservation and you cannot borrow or rent points either. 

All that said, there may be minimal impact upon the VIP cancel/rebook method. Recent reported troubles of losing out on reservations are probably due to other factors. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigrob (Mar 2, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> It doesn't quite work like the Worldmark wait list.
> 
> According to the Wyndham website the wait list is not continuous up to the 60 day window. You do not request a specific type of room, but you do specify the resort. It is simply to get a callback during a modified ARP window from 11 1/2 to 10 months out. You can only use regular use year points if you get this call, and if there still happens to be availability at that resort.
> 
> ...



I think you are referring to the current Wyndham "waitlist" process for certain very seasonal high-demand resorts such as Myrtle Beach, where you can put your name on the list to be notified during a modified ARP period. What is being discussed here is a "new" waitlist that would enable people to place reservation "holds" sort of like an on-going search in RCI, and when someone releases a reservation, it would go to the waitlist rather than automatically going back out to the online reservation system for the first person (presumably the person who released it and want to rebook it with their discount) is waiting to rebook it.

What isn't known is whether there would be a "cost" associated with putting yourself onto the wait list... i.e., if you have to use the points the reservation would take to hold it, and only get them back if you never clear the waitlist. This would be an obvious way to keep people from just waitlisting everything. 

FYI, the cancellation window in Wyndham is 15 days, not 30 like Worldmark.


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## uscav8r (Mar 2, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> ... What is being discussed here is a "new" waitlist that would enable people to place reservation "holds" sort of like an on-going search in RCI, and when someone releases a reservation, it would go to the waitlist rather than automatically going back out to the online reservation system...



My bad... I had seen an old thread that alluded to this "new" waitlist as the RPL. I guess the RPL has been around for a while and was just new to me! Live by the thread, die by the thread, I guess (should have considered the post's author more carefully!). 

Is the "new" waitlist even in effect yet?

OP and others were remarking about how the cancel/rebook was already failing, so a yet-to-be realized reservation feature (details of which are sketchy) _should _not be affecting current practices.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 3, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> And some owners have already figured out an approach if the long-rumored "waitlist" were to come to pass. It may actually end up giving them a competitive advantage as there is a barrier to entry for the strategy.



"Waitlist" "Shmaitlist". Right now, much of the mega-renting is done by the mega-renter who almost constantly is looking for availability where there is none within the 60 days. The minute you or I cancel a reservation, they see it and grab it and are off to satisfy their customer. Life will be so much easier for the mega-renters if they can put their customer's requests on a waitlist. I can just hear them saying, "Don't throw me into that briar (waitlist) patch."

I'm not a mega-renter, just a renter. Life might be a whole lot easier if I could use a waitlist. And, as soon as I get the reservation through the use of the waitlist, I put my name right back on the waitlist to try to pick up a backup reservation. Once that is done, I put my name on again, so that once I cancel, I have a good likelihood of getting it again once I cancel. If I lose it, I still have a backup. This may tie up more reservations spaces than I would have used without a waitlist

I am going through this, simply to say, average owner, watch out what you wish for. You may not like the final results of a waitlist.

Jim


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## Ron2 (Mar 3, 2014)

If a waitlist is not properly designed, it will be abused as previous posts have pointed out. Although I do not intend to ever use the waitlist, its my hope that it will be designed to benefit the average owner who has had difficulty getting into their desired resort and not necessarily benefit or harm the mega-renter. Possibly if they do not provide discounts on reservations from the waitlist, at least one major loophole would be avoided.


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## CO skier (Mar 3, 2014)

Ron2 said:


> Although I do not intend to ever use the waitlist, its my hope that it will be designed to benefit the average owner who has had difficulty getting into their desired resort ...



WorldMark owners love their waitlist, because the success rate is very high.  The owners do not have to spend hours at a time online for days or months looking for a cancellation.  The computer is working for them all day, every day until the match is made, or the waitlist request is cancelled or expires.

When a match is made, the owner receives an email or phone call and have 48 hours to confirm the reservation.

Owners who know how to use the waitlist to its fullest potential have cobbled together a week or more one day or a few days at a time over a period of months.

The waitlist activity is high because there are no Reservation Transaction fees in the WorldMark system.

Club Wyndham owners do not know what they are missing.


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## am1 (Mar 3, 2014)

How much bigger is Wyndham than Worldmark?  It will be a lot of phone calls and e-mails happening.  48 hours to book a unit will tie up a lot of units while people are thinking. 

I do not think we will see a true wait list any time soon.


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## ronparise (Mar 3, 2014)

CO skier said:


> WorldMark owners love their waitlist, because the success rate is very high.  The owners do not have to spend hours at a time online for days or months looking for a cancellation.  The computer is working for them all day, every day until the match is made, or the waitlist request is cancelled or expires.
> 
> When a match is made, the owner receives an email or phone call and have 48 hours to confirm the reservation.
> 
> ...



That no transaction thing coupled with a pretty good cancellation policy is responsible for an abuse of the Worldmark system

Folks make multiple reservations early on with no intention of ever using them. Then months later when their work schedule firms up they cancel the ones they wont use, and just keep the one they will.  

This is a reason I think so many worldmark owners cant get the reservations they want early on and of course why they have so much success with the wait list closer to check in


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## ronparise (Mar 3, 2014)

am1 said:


> How much bigger is Wyndham than Worldmark?  It will be a lot of phone calls and e-mails happening.  48 hours to book a unit will tie up a lot of units while people are thinking.
> 
> I do not think we will see a true wait list any time soon.



Wyndham is about double the size of Worldmark, in terms of owners  (250000 vs 500000)

I agree no wait list, for a different reason..and that is: ..There is no profit motive to Wyndham to make one happen


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## DeeDibble (Mar 4, 2014)

*Wyndham Waitlist*

I sure hope this is a rumor.  When we bought in 1995 we started with 154,000 points in Branson. That would get us 1 week in  a 2 bdrm or 2 weeks in a 1 bdrm.  A year went by and we bought another 154,000 points to get more time and also for the VIP Status.  We expanded our wings and went to Florida.....long story short:  we are now GOLD and utilize the VIP discounts ........ How can they create a "wait list"?  What are the " in's and out's" of said wait list?   If a person is on a "wait list" then what happens ?  Is the computer going to grab anything we cancel to rebook?  Is the wait list going to be secondary?  Who told who about this wait list?


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## DeeDibble (Mar 4, 2014)

am1 said:


> How much bigger is Wyndham than Worldmark?  It will be a lot of phone calls and e-mails happening.  48 hours to book a unit will tie up a lot of units while people are thinking.
> 
> I do not think we will see a true wait list any time soon.



I hope you are right!


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## DeeDibble (Mar 4, 2014)

ronparise said:


> And thats the way it should be... We are Wyndhams customers. They developed the properties and sell them to us (or the folks that bought from Wyndham sell to us) and through our HOAs, we  hire them to run the resorts we now own.  We are the source of their income. I happen to believe that they want happy satisfied customers and at least part of their strategy is to keep us happy, and to foster a mutual loyalty.
> 
> If you disagree or just dont like the job that they are doing, either sell what you own and go somewhere else, or find enough  other owners to band together to fire them as manager. As you know thats whats going on at WMowners.com....with little success Id say. There's just not enough owners that agree with you.




I didn't think the HOA's had anything to do with what Wyndham does.  I do agree that the Resorts want us happy as we are the source of income for them to stay in operation.   Could this " wait list" have a price tag just like everything else has?   I bought Wyndham Access for its 13 month booking advantage.  Is it possible that in order to have access to the Waitlist Wyndham will say they have to buy more points to get that privilege ?


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2014)

DeeDibble said:


> I didn't think the HOA's had anything to do with what Wyndham does.  I do agree that the Resorts want us happy as we are the source of income for them to stay in operation.   Could this " wait list" have a price tag just like everything else has?   I bought Wyndham Access for its 13 month booking advantage.  Is it possible that in order to have access to the Waitlist Wyndham will say they have to buy more points to get that privilege ?



While the resorts have an income, they have no profit. all their income should go to expenses and reserve funds.  Although Wyndham controls the HOAs they are separate. The HOA hires Wyndham to run the place. and the resorts generally have nothing to do with reservations or a wait list (if one happens)

The hoas are Wyndham's customers as are the folks that buy Wyndham points to stay at the resorts. 

We are the hoa and the hoa is us. 

And sure it may cost to use a wait list, if indeed one happens at all.  It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I dont see it happening


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## cotraveller (Mar 4, 2014)

ronparise said:


> That no transaction thing coupled with a pretty good cancellation policy is responsible for an abuse of the Worldmark system
> 
> Folks make multiple reservations early on with no intention of ever using them. Then months later when their work schedule firms up they cancel the ones they wont use, and just keep the one they will.
> 
> This is a reason I think so many worldmark owners cant get the reservations they want and of course why they have so much success with the wait list



I think you have this backwards. Using the waitlist is not an abuse of the system and it is not a reason WorldMark owners can't get the reservation they want.  Rather it is a primary reason that WorldMark owners *CAN* get those difficult reservations. The VPC folks are very good at explaining the wait list and setting it up in a manner to maximize your odds of getting that reservation.  Talk to them if you don't understand all the ins and outs of the waitlist.

The waitlist has been a feature of WorldMark since we became owners in 2001.  With a little research I believe I could show that it has always been available.  The waitlist is not a hidden glitch in the system, it has been taught in owner ed classes in the past and is still taught both in live classes and in the Online Learning Center on the WorldMark web site.  It is one more thing that makes WorldMark one of the most flexible timeshare systems around.


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## Bigrob (Mar 4, 2014)

DeeDibble said:


> I didn't think the HOA's had anything to do with what Wyndham does.  I do agree that the Resorts want us happy as we are the source of income for them to stay in operation.   Could this " wait list" have a price tag just like everything else has?   I bought Wyndham Access for its 13 month booking advantage.  Is it possible that in order to have access to the Waitlist Wyndham will say they have to buy more points to get that privilege ?



I think right now there is a lot of speculation and not a lot of basis for what or how a "waitlist" might be implemented. It has always been a bit of a gamble to try to cancel/rebook a reservation that has no backup. The original poster has indicated two things - cancel/rebook has been failing more often recently, especially at Bonnet Creek during holiday season - and a Vacation Counselor has indicated that the long-rumored "waitlist" may get implemented. 

The last time I spoke to a VC, the info I got was that the system implementation required to implement such functionality is not even in test yet, much less have the VC's been trained on it. That led me to believe that it would probably not be implemented before the Club Pass functionality in June.

I don't think it's time to panic yet.


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## comicbookman (Mar 4, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> I think right now there is a lot of speculation and not a lot of basis for what or how a "waitlist" might be implemented. It has always been a bit of a gamble to try to cancel/rebook a reservation that has no backup. The original poster has indicated two things - cancel/rebook has been failing more often recently, especially at Bonnet Creek during holiday season - and a Vacation Counselor has indicated that the long-rumored "waitlist" may get implemented.
> 
> The last time I spoke to a VC, the info I got was that the system implementation required to implement such functionality is not even in test yet, much less have the VC's been trained on it. That led me to believe that it would probably not be implemented before the Club Pass functionality in June.
> 
> I don't think it's time to panic yet.



As someone who recently failed at a cancel/rebook at Bonnet Creek, I don't think Wyndham "took" the reservation.  I saw it show up, but when I clicked it it was already gone.  This makes me think someone was just faster than I was.  (not really that surprising).

As an IT professional, I would be surprised if a waitlist appeared before the Club Pass intro.  That is a big bucks program, so why complicate it's intro with new code right before it goes live?  If the rumored waitlist could be used with Club Pass, then it would be a money maker and should appear at the same time.

Finally, as a VIP owner, a waitlist just makes my VIP status even more of a bad deal, if it does not allow for my 60 day discount.  It is a plus if I can still use my discount if the reservation made off the waitlist is within 60 days.


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## Bigrob (Mar 4, 2014)

comicbookman said:


> As someone who recently failed at a cancel/rebook at Bonnet Creek, I don't think Wyndham "took" the reservation.  I saw it show up, but when I clicked it it was already gone.  This makes me think someone was just faster than I was.  (not really that surprising).
> 
> As an IT professional, I would be surprised if a waitlist appeared before the Club Pass intro.  That is a big bucks program, so why complicate it's intro with new code right before it goes live?  If the rumored waitlist could be used with Club Pass, then it would be a money maker and should appear at the same time.
> 
> Finally, as a VIP owner, a waitlist just makes my VIP status even more of a bad deal, if it does not allow for my 60 day discount.  It is a plus if I can still use my discount if the reservation made off the waitlist is within 60 days.



It may not have that effect. If cancel/rebook continues to fail, it may drive different behavior (the initial reservation "hold" might not be placed to begin with). There is probably a fair amount of "phantom" demand based on folks making reservations during potentially high-demand in the hopes of later cancelling/rebooking. If that doesn't work anymore, maybe the reservation doesn't get made until it's actually needed or within the discount window.


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## comicbookman (Mar 4, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> It may not have that effect. If cancel/rebook continues to fail, it may drive different behavior (the initial reservation "hold" might not be placed to begin with). There is probably a fair amount of "phantom" demand based on folks making reservations during potentially high-demand in the hopes of later cancelling/rebooking. If that doesn't work anymore, maybe the reservation doesn't get made until it's actually needed or within the discount window.



Good point.


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## Bigrob (Mar 4, 2014)

ronparise said:


> We are the hoa and the hoa is us.



This is more a statement of what should be than a statement of what is. So far as I know, every resort that Wyndham "manages" has an HOA board controlled by Wyndham.

I'm curious as to why you don't see a waitlist happening. You assume there is no profit motive for Wyndham, but I'm pretty sure Wyndham would reap some gains from implementing it, whether it's through a reduction of highly discounted reservations, higher occupancy, or even (gasp) the introduction of another fee-based "feature". One could even argue that a waitlist, depending upon the implementation, might benefit some owners (admittedly not the first thing Wyndham is likely to think about) as it does seem to be a feature Worldmark owners like.

Think about this - how many owners, if presented the option to pay $39 or $49 dollars to be added to a waitlist for say, Mardi Gras or Myrtle Beach in the summer - would be tempted if they've never been able to make those reservations before? If they don't clear the waitlist, the fee is refunded. 

"Regular" owners might like this... not a requirement, but an option to get something they might not otherwise. "Rental" owners obviously would not like this. Of course this is probably unlikely because we all know Wyndham is loathe to add any new fees. And I'm never sarcastic.


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> This is more a statement of what should be than a statement of what is. So far as I know, every resort that Wyndham "manages" has an HOA board controlled by Wyndham.
> 
> I'm curious as to why you don't see a waitlist happening. You assume there is no profit motive for Wyndham, but I'm pretty sure Wyndham would reap some gains from implementing it, whether it's through a reduction of highly discounted reservations, higher occupancy, or even (gasp) the introduction of another fee-based "feature". One could even argue that a waitlist, depending upon the implementation, might benefit some owners (admittedly not the first thing Wyndham is likely to think about) as it does seem to be a feature Worldmark owners like.
> 
> ...



as I said...It may be wishful thinking on my part, more than anything else. .. 

But

I dont think there are that many of us that actually cancel and rebook,  so I dont think the savings will amount to much 

and even if Im wrong about the number, and there are a lot...If the purpose of the waiting list is to curtail mega renters, I think the effort will backfire,  Stopping us from doing the cancel and rebook trick wont provide more reservations to the masses.  Consider this, I came into Feb with 10 reservations for check in Feb 28 that I wanted to rent. I did cancel and re book successfully, but if I knew that there was a waiting list, I wouldnt have.  I would have continued to advertise, and I would have rented everything just as I did...I just would have made a little less...nothing would have gone to the waiting list.

and next year, because I  want to maintain my income, Ill buy more points and Ill reserve more, maintaining my income with increased volume. Instead of a waiting list curtailing mega renter activity they will stimulate more...instead of 20 Mardi Gras reservations Ill try for 30 meaning less for the masses, not more....and you wont see any more of my ads offering reservations at less than mf either. Those points are the cancelled points that come out a cancel and rebook strategy


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## csxjohn (Mar 4, 2014)

ronparise said:


> ....and you wont see any more of my ads offering reservations at less than mf either. Those points are the cancelled points that come out a cancel and rebook strategy



This is where the masses come in.  I can rent from Ron on the cheap right now but if the can't get the cheap ressies, he can't rent the cheaply and that's going to hurt me and others who have found that right now renting is cheaper than owning.


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## chapjim (Mar 4, 2014)

comicbookman said:


> As someone who recently failed at a cancel/rebook at Bonnet Creek, I don't think Wyndham "took" the reservation.  I saw it show up, but when I clicked it it was already gone.  This makes me think someone was just faster than I was.  (not really that surprising).



I've lost some reservations trying to rebook and I firmly believe that Wyndham "takes" them but not for its rental program.  I think it is because of overbooking, either consciously like airlines or because some units have to be taken out of service.

I've never seen one of my lost reservations appear on Wyndham's rental site.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 4, 2014)

chapjim said:


> I've lost some reservations trying to rebook and I firmly believe that Wyndham "takes" them but not for its rental program.  I think it is because of overbooking, either consciously like airlines or because some units have to be taken out of service.
> 
> I've never seen one of my lost reservations appear on Wyndham's rental site.



Jim,
Discovery Program? I have run into guests (several times) at Royal Vista who called and wanted some nights in March at Royal Vista -- usually 3 or 4 nights booked. Never a week's stay ..  told me they HAVE NO TROUBLE booking this great resort 10 or so days in advance.

The Discovery Program with their special 1-800 number and their special inventory.


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## comicbookman (Mar 5, 2014)

I have been giving this some thought.  I have taken advantage of the cancel rebook, both for my own use and for rental.  (although after my last loss, no more on rentals)  That being said, if I were designing a reservation system, then I would put in a rebook delay, within the discount period, with a prominent warning that cancelled reservations can't be rebooked within, say 15minutes.  I would allow additional reservations, but once you cancel, the delay would kick in at that property.  This would deter anyone from cancelling/rebooking a high demand reservation, unless they have more than one account.  If that becomes a problem, there are simple ways to compensate.

I say this not because I want Wyndham to do it, but because it would make good business sense on their part and go a small way to evening out the field.  I will continue to use this trick as long as it is available, but it is a trick, not a guaranteed perk.  The only perk is the discount period itself.

I also expect that if they roll out a waitlist, there will be a fee.


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