# Waikiki is really going downhill



## AKE (Feb 14, 2013)

We first visited Waikiki almost 40 years ago. In those days there were few highrises, lots of fortune tellers on the side streets, and 'ladies' on Kalakaua (main drag) conducting their business from early evening on. Over the years Waikiki evolved - highrises were built which blocked the view of the beach and the fortune tellers disappeared but panhandlers and street people remained out of sight. As  late as a two years ago the streets were clean with only a few 'ladies' out and about; there were no panhandlers and only limited street people on Kalakaua. This time around it is disgusting - we have been panhandled every day and 2 nights ago (around 8:30 pm) I counted well over a hundred street people sleeping on the sidewalk and any corner that they can find on Kalakaua. Some even had set up semi-permanent accomodations with air mattresses and piles of garbage that they cart from place to place. Now I have nothing against street people but as a tourist it is no longer inviting to walk down Kalakaua and if Hawaii doesn't clean up its act, it will loose big time.  In Time Square it is forbidden to lean on a wall when waiting for a bus (they call it loitering) which may seem a bit extreme but it is way better than what is happening on the sidewalks in Waikiki.


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## csalter2 (Feb 14, 2013)

*Sign of the times*

First, I understand your feelings. I have not been going to Hawaii for 40 years but 20 and have seen some differences over time in Waikiki. However, one can see changes everywhere over time that are not always to the positive. 

The economy has had a profound effect on people's lives. You are seeing more homeless, because there are more people who are homeless. I grew up in New York City and lived there the first 24 years of my life. Times Square was a fun, but dangerous place. Yes, it changed much to my surprise. However, if you go right under Times Square in the tunnels called the subway, you will see the street people just as well. Heck, it's too cold in New York during the winter to sleep outside anyway.  Waikiki is a nicer environment so you will see them out more year round. In fact, I see them here in Southern California year round because the weather here is nice. Go to Paris and walk Champs Elysees and you will see them out there in the summer too. You live in Canada, I bet you don't see almost any street people there because of the brutal winters. There is no avoiding poverty in even the best of places, and in this economic environment, it should unfortunately be expected. No matter how bad it is in the US, it still is not near the levels  of poverty going on in the beautiful Caribbean isles or Mexican resort towns where families beg you on the street incessantly.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 14, 2013)

I ride the public buses in Ft Lauderdale routinely. I overhear MANY conversations - but one is particular was truly interesting.

A couple had been on the bus when we picked up a single guy. Immediate recognition and the WHERE have you been including when each had arrived back in Broward County, FL. New England during the summer, FL and TX going via the Gulf coastline, places to stay (homeless shelters), visits to families (until they were given money to leave their home towns), and finally, all 3 updating their cell phones with their NEW numbers and vows of "We need to get together soon". Oh, they also included reviews of panhandling profitable locations and how nice (or not nice) the local police were. And better (new) homeless shelters.

Dang, I should have been taking notes - all 3 were clearly under 30 years old.


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## AKE (Feb 14, 2013)

Despite the weather, there are lots of homeless people in Canada as well but they seem to be discouraged from where the tourists congregate. In Waikiki around the old Fort Derussey (near Hilton Hawaiian Village) there is a huge park but it is millitary property (I think) and there is not one homeless person camped out there. If the park can be maintained to a standard where tourists feel safe to walk through, then why not the main drag (Kalakaua)? It is somewhat threatening / intimidating to literally have to literally step over / walk around groups of homeless people, and especially once the sun goes down. Once again each can choose their lifestyle but if a tourist does not feel comfortable, they will not come back.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 14, 2013)

AKE said:


> Despite the weather, there are lots of homeless people in Canada as well but they seem to be discouraged from where the tourists congregate. In Waikiki around the old Fort Derussey (near Hilton Hawaiian Village) there is a huge park but it is millitary property (I think) and there is not one homeless person camped out there. If the park can be maintained to a standard where tourists feel safe to walk through, then why not the main drag (Kalakaua)? It is somewhat threatening / intimidating to literally have to literally step over / walk around groups of homeless people, and especially once the sun goes down. Once again each can choose their lifestyle but if a tourist does not feel comfortable, they will not come back.



Honolulu has ordinances against people setting up camp in public spaces.  They do a sweep every now and then.  What happens is that they just pop up somewhere else.

It used to be a big problem around Kapiolani Park.  But, once the City decided they were going to stop it from happening, it actually did.

Hawaii just had a record year for inbound visitors.  The City will take action before it impacts tourists.


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## ronparise (Feb 14, 2013)

AKE said:


> piles of garbage that they cart from place to place.



Thats probably not garbage, its their stuff and my guess its as important to them as my stuff is to me.

.I dont know about Hawaii, but I do know that in Maryland we developed a street people problem when the  State hospitals for the insane were closed.. When they closed the patients had nowhere to go except the streets...Is Hawaii ant different?


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## timeos2 (Feb 14, 2013)

Not the "street people" but just the overall change in look disappointed us after over 25 years since our previous visit. Fortunately we also had a week on Kauai so we got to see the "real" Hawaii we remembered but Honolulu was a big disappointment this time. Too cosmopolitan now. 

I wasn't surprised when I later read that Honolulu now is the #3 US city for skyscrapers - after only NYC & Chicago. It has that feel now and it doesn't fit with the beautiful setting.  But if people didn't want it they wouldn't build it like so much that happens in the world. We just preferred the old look. It wasn't just us as our daughter who had never seen either before said if (when) she returns she prefers Kauai.  

As a side issue I heard the stories of the hurricane & the wild chickens on Kauai but how did they also appear on Oahu? Swim? Just seems strange they both have them (although no where near as many on Oahu).


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 14, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> As a side issue I heard the stories of the hurricane & the wild chickens on Kauai but how did they also appear on Oahu? Swim? Just seems strange they both have them (although no where near as many on Oahu).


Kaua'i has chickens (as well as more birds of all varieties) because mongoose were never released on Kaua'i.

*****

There are wild chickens on all of the islands independent of Iniki.  There have been chickens in the Islands for years (centuries?) and inevitably some of them escaped and established themselves.  Iniki (or other hurricanes) may have helped add to the population, but chickens were well established in the wild before Iniki.


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## DaveNV (Feb 14, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> I wasn't surprised when I later read that Honolulu now is the #3 US city for skyscrapers - after only NYC & Chicago. It has that feel now and it doesn't fit with the beautiful setting.



When I was living on Oahu as a teenager in the late 1960s, the local joke was the new Hawaiian State Bird was the Construction Crane.  There were dozens perched on top of all those skyscrapers in Waikiki.  I don't know how many skyscrapers are new, because there sure were a lot when I lived there.



timeos2 said:


> As a side issue I heard the stories of the hurricane & the wild chickens on Kauai but how did they also appear on Oahu? Swim? Just seems strange they both have them (although no where near as many on Oahu).



I think Hawaiian locals like having the chickens around, so encourage them to live in various areas on all the islands.  When I was at the Pali Lookout at sunrise one day in January 2012, I watched a police officer get out of his patrol car, open the trunk, take out a bag of chicken scratch feed, and proceed to feed the wild chickens in the area.  Dozens of birds of all ages and sizes came running out of the brush from all directions, to get their share of the food.  So I can say for certain that at that location, at least, it's deliberate.

Dave


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## jestme (Feb 14, 2013)

My first trip to Waikiki was in 1976, and yes, things have changed since then. But it isn't as bad as what you make it out to be. We were there in January, and didn't see what you are seeing on Kalakawa. Back a block on Kuhio, and further away from the ocean on side streets wasn't the same story though. Never the less, it is still much better than it was 10 years ago. Then, you couldn't walk along Kuhio without a number of "ladies" following you and bidding against each other for your business. There were homeless people living in Ala Moana park and Kapiolani park. They had built semi-permanent tent cities there, along with shopping carts full of their belongings. That was all cleaned up and the people were forced 'elsewhere'.
The homeless still get moved around quite a bit. Having said that, the homeless will try to stay close to where they can beg for money or get food, and that is where people are. 
I agree, there are skyscrapers, but they didn't show up overnight. Very few of the new ones are in Waikiki, they are in downtown Honolulu. The Waikikian at the HHV and the Trump tower are the only new high rises built in Waikiki in a long time. In fact, most of the hotels in Waikiki are old and overdue for a tear down and rebuild, or a refurbish, or have just had one.


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## AKE (Feb 14, 2013)

jestme said:


> My first trip to Waikiki was in 1976, and yes, things have changed since then. But it isn't as bad as what you make it out to be. We were
> there in January, and didn't see what you are seeing on Kalakawa. UOTE]
> 
> In the 70's Waikiki was almost quaint. What we have seen this past week is not pretty. I am not bothered by the homeless in one sense but I do feel threatened when I walk past large groups of them staring vacantly at the passersby or when we are verbally challenged to 'spare a dollar or ten' as you can never predict the outcome when you say NO (and one did get somewhat abusive).


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## SmithOp (Feb 14, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Dang, I should have been taking notes - all 3 were clearly under 30 years old.



No need for notes, just check the stickies on the HUG bbs, you can use the free computers at any library...

:rofl:


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 14, 2013)

There is new legislation being discussed to increase the number of chickens each household can have.   The current law is each house can have 2.

Now, some legislators want to increase that number to 7.  The rationale for the increase is to enable households to feed themselves.  Evidently, 2 chickens can't produce enough eggs for a family to live on.  So, they want to increase it to 7.

I had no idea that there was even a law on the books regulating how many chickens a family can have.  I thought it was strange that they even find it necessary to have a law for such thing.

How many of you know how many chickens you can have in your home?


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## jestme (Feb 14, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> How many of you know how many chickens you can have in your home?



I'm married, so at least one......:hysterical:


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## DaveNV (Feb 14, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> How many of you know how many chickens you can have in your home?



My Homeowner's Association Covenants specifically forbids any animal considered to be "farm animals or fowl." Chickens, ducks, geese, whatever is not allowed.  Given the attitudes of some of my neighbors, that's probably not a bad idea.  

Dave


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## jestme (Feb 14, 2013)

> In the 70's Waikiki was almost quaint.



I recall in 1978, we ate breakfast at Woolworth's most mornings, directly across the street from the Sheraton Waikiki on Kalakawa, because it was the cheapest place to eat anywhere around. There was a lei stand between the Sheraton and breakfast, and I bought my new wife a new lei every morning, which she wore to breakfast and early morning shopping, (believe me, I certainly remember those $$ trips....) then she sat it next to herself on the beach. Yes, it was more quaint, and different than it is now. I also remember the groups of guys in pink, I used to call them "Harry's boys", the Hari Krishna ones who ripped us off for $10.00 for the "free" bible they gave us on Kalakawa then wanted to preach to us for 2 hours if we didn't pay them for the bible to go away. We didn't walk on that side of the street after that. I share your wish that we only remember the good from the past, and never anything else. 
At this point in my life, I hope that someday we look back and are able to say to the people in whatever home our kids pick out for us, that we have been to Hawaii, enjoyed it often, and those who never made it there missed a part of life that we were lucky enough to enjoy.


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## AKE (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't remember the Woolworth but I do remember the movie theatre on Seaside which was playing JAWS! We were staying at the Marine Surf hotel just down the street (a one star at best... even in those days) and the neighbourhood was very interesting to say the least. Each day we walked by the fortune tellers on our way to the beach. The Royal Hawaiian hotel (big pink one one the beach) looked so intimidating - I could never have imagined that we could afford to stay there (but of course we did a few years ago). Lewers Street (parallel to Seaside ... both intersect Kalakaua) was another interesting street - seedy is way too polite a word to describe it. We saw Don Ho there.  Today Lewers is a high class neighbourhood.  I wish we had taken more pictures of the Waikiki but film was expensive though we do have a few good ones of the Waikiki skyline of 40 years ago.


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## csalter2 (Feb 15, 2013)

*That's why Hawaii if so great...*

That's why Hawaii is so great and Oahu my favorite island! You have the action of a city yet the tranquility and beauty of the islands all in one place. I like lots of activity as if I am home in NY, but then I love being able to get in a car and hitting that North Shore and having the peace, beauty and Aloha spirit that only a Hawai islandi can give.


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## Dollie (Feb 15, 2013)

*Red Junglefowl or Moa (Gallus Gallus)*

Red Junglefowl or Moa (Gallus Gallus)

Distribution:  Wild populations exist only on Kaua`i (Koke`e State Park and Alaka`i Swamp).  Feral birds can be found in the lowlands of Kaua`i and on O`ahu, Moloka`i, Maui, and Hawai`i.

Description:  Like a domestic chicken but with less individual variation.  Males are quite colorful, with long sickle-shaped tail feathers.  Females are drab brown.  Both sexes have distinctive comb (lacking in the Kalij Pheasant).

Voice:  Like that of domestic chickens.

Habits:  Truly wild junglefowl are retiring birds of dense rain forest.  They feed in leaf litter, scratching for seeds, fruits, and invertebrates.  Moa were brought to Hawai`i for food by Polynesian colonists and were once widespread.

From “Hawaii’s Birds”  Hawai`i Audubon Society


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## siesta (Feb 15, 2013)

This thread seems incredibly insensitive, and forgive me if my post is repetitive as I stopped reading posts half way thru.  But noone seems to be ackowledging the true problem on the islands, and it is irrespective of the current economy, although exacerbated by it.  Because of tourists and investors, real estate prices have soared for years, to the point that children cant move out when they become adults because they cant afford to live anywhere. Thus, you have multiple families living in single family households. Many are not as fortunate and even with the salaries they can make by working can barely make ends meet due to the high cost of living, let alone afford a place to live. It is not like here in the states, Chicago for example, where if real estate is too expensive you move south, or west and then commute if you work in the city. Or you just relocate period by hopping your car or utilizing public transportation.  These locals are just that, native hawaiians, that if they dont have the choice/luck to live like animals as 15 people in a 3 bedroom one story house, they have to relocate to the mainland, leave their native soil and families and move to vegas to deal cards in a casino or in arizona (two most popular destinations).  Additionally, the ones that dont have the support system or the will to get off the island and establish roots elsewhere, end up stuck on an island, homeless, or barely making ends meat. It is a vicious cycle.

To the OP, sorry the plight of natives directly caused by people like you and me has affected your vacation. And before you say, "our tourism supports their economy" im sure any of the old timers would just as well of had it as it was 40 years ago too, with no high rises, less investors running up prices on their land. They were fine before apparently according to your assessment, which is the only thing me and you seem to agree on.


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## DaveNV (Feb 15, 2013)

siesta said:


> This thread seems incredibly insensitive, and forgive me if my post is repetitive as I stopped reading posts half way thru.  But noone seems to be ackowledging the true problem on the islands, and it is irrespective of the current economy, although exacerbated by it.



I won't argue the politics of your post, because we agree on a certain number of your points.  But I wanted to mention a few things a lot of newer visitors to Hawaii may not know:  The construction in Waikiki, the plight of homeless people, and the economic conditions of life in Hawaii (especially on Oahu) is NOT a new issue.  This has been going on far longer than the last 40 years.  It just wasn't as visible as it is now.

When I was living there in the late 1960's, there was ALREADY so much construction in the Waikiki area, that things were already overbuilt, and they couldn't fill all those rooms.  They lamented on the evening news that at any given point in time, any day of the week, even at the busiest travel times of year, there were no less than 3000 _EMPTY_ hotel rooms in Waikiki.  The State Government stepped in, and used vacant hotel rooms as temporary housing for welfare families.  The island only has a certain amount of houses, and it's all about supply and demand.

As to the apparent glut of homeless people living in Waikiki:  When I was on Oahu in 2007, there were fewer homeless people and panhandlers hanging out in Waikiki.  But on the other side of the island, on the government-owned land at Bellows Beach, there was a _HUGE_ tent city with a couple thousand people living there.  In 2012, that tent city was gone, and Bellows was deserted.  Those people had to go somewhere.  Waikiki is a logical place, since tourist dollars are more easily panhandled there.  Back in the day, Makena Beach on Maui was a major destination for street people, hippies, and whoever else wanted to hang out, party, not work, and live off the land. I don't see it as much different now.

Most of my school friends from the Islands now live elsewhere.  Families that were multi-generations in Hawaii moved to the Mainland long ago, because economic opportunities exist here that don't exist in Hawaii.  They miss the place as much as I do, but for very different reasons.

If there is anything to blame, it's the weather.  Hawaii has a great climate, and it will attract people for obvious reasons.  But I'd wager the majority of those homeless people in Waikiki are relative newcomers to the islands.

Dave


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## cgeidl (Feb 15, 2013)

*We like Waikiki*

First time was in 1960 and then I had a Navy Tour in 67-68 where my wife and kids stayed here while I was gone all except about 60 days.We have probably come about 25 times since and we are there now and enjoying it but not counting the homeless but trying our best to ignore them as giving money may be hurting more than helping them. It is tough to live in Hawaii as prices are high and wages low. Many Hawaiians work two or three jobs trying to make ends meet. In our opinion Waikiki has been upgraded lots in the last ten years.We always stay two or three weeks then to a neighboring Island. Tomorrow we are off to Kauai.
We are bothered by much more aggressive street people in San Francisco and feel unsafe there at night compared to Waikiki. Record tourism last year and this will be even bigger. Few timeshares and hotel rooms are available and prices are going up even more. We always go somewhere outside Waikiki almost every day but often wander the streets at Sunset enjoying the music and the many street buskers. Lots to see and do and many good restaurants.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 15, 2013)

I love Waikiki.  The City modernized the entire area along Kalakaua.  

I love the high rises.

If you don't like the City, go to the other side of the island. 

As far as the homeless, they will always be here.  I am fine with them staying in places like Bellows or Waianae.   It's when they take up entire city blocks that it becomes a nuisance that needs to be addressed.


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## AKE (Feb 15, 2013)

There was an article in the Honolulu paper today re 2 bills being introduced to remove the homeless and their belongings from the streets (I guess that I am not the only one who has noticed the issues). Don't blame the tourists - if it wasn't for them then there would be even more economic problems than there are today.


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## california-bighorn (Feb 16, 2013)

As in many places, especially big cities, there are areas that are not as desirable  and could use upgrading.  I'm sure this is case in Waikiki, but, in the past twenty years we have gone to Waikiki once or twice a year and have seen nothing but improvement.  We feel safe there any time of the day or night.


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## easyrider (Feb 16, 2013)

The wild chickens are a bit dryer tasting than a store bought, from what I hear. The wild pigs are fun to hunt. They are big. My nephew got one in Maui last fall. 

Waikikik is all right for a big city with a beach but its not for me. I do like the Rainbow Drive In and always get a mixed plate or if its morning I like the Mahi Mahi breakfast special. 

The bad thing about Waikiki is that is where the sex and drugs are found. There drug of choice is ice which is like meth. So to support their habits many of these users are thieves. Smash and grab, purse and wallet snatch, beach looters and this type of crime is what happens to most. There is a huge disparity between the haves and haves not in Waikiki so the have nots get theirs by getting yours.

As far as Oahu goes I like west side. Better fishing, nicer beaches and not so crowded. This is the local side. If you have a bad attitude you could end up meeting some of the nastiest people ever but if your friendly and outgoing you will likely meet the coolest bunch of people ever.

For me, Waikiki is too touristy.


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## BocaBoy (Feb 19, 2013)

AKE said:


> We first visited Waikiki almost 40 years ago. In those days there were few highrises....


We honeymooned there in September of 1973 and the beach was lined with almost all the high rises that exist today.  Waikiki today still seems to us much like it was then.


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## GregT (Feb 20, 2013)

We are here for a week now and think it is terrific -- granted, I can't reference what it was like years ago, because we are Waikiki newbies (fourth trip), but we feel very safe.  

I walk in the morning (while it is still dark, because on West Coast time) and I've never encountered a problem.  I like that there is a police station on Kalakaua and police cars line up on the street.  It's been very quiet each morning -- and no issues from anybody.

I'm sure there's other parts that are unseemly, but we really like it here!

Best,

Greg


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## AKE (Feb 20, 2013)

Walk down Kalakaua anytime from late afternoon to late evening - look on the benches, under palm trees, beside lamp posts, on/under the picnic tables in the covered shelters right beside the street, and especially once you go past the police station towards the park on the ocean side.  The 'ladies' favor the corner across from the Westin (which also has a religious group preaching right beside where they stand (quite interesting to say the least) ).  If you want to see a rougher street go to Kuhio (parallel to Kalakaua) - various 'clubs', bar fights and 'ladies' once again are common.  Kuhio always has been a somewhat rough street but now it seems to be spreading.  However the politicians have noticed and are taking action. What apparently has happened is the state is now charging camping fees in the parks all around the island whereas before they were free.  This has resulted in the homeless now relocating to Waikiki.  There are signs in the parks around Waikiki which ban any overnight stays ( either midnight or 2 am to 5 am) so maybe the homeless have to leave then - I don't know as we didn't stay out that late.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 20, 2013)

AKE said:


> Walk down Kalakaua anytime from late afternoon to late evening - look on the benches, under palm trees, beside lamp posts, on/under the picnic tables in the covered shelters right beside the street, and especially once you go past the police station towards the park on the ocean side.  The 'ladies' favor the corner across from the Westin (which also has a religious group preaching right beside where they stand (quite interesting to say the least) ).  If you want to see a rougher street go to Kuhio (parallel to Kalakaua) - various 'clubs', bar fights and 'ladies' once again are common.  Kuhio always has been a somewhat rough street but now it seems to be spreading.  However the politicians have noticed and are taking action. What apparently has happened is the state is now charging camping fees in the parks all around the island whereas before they were free.  This has resulted in the homeless now relocating to Waikiki.  There are signs in the parks around Waikiki which ban any overnight stays ( either midnight or 2 am to 5 am) so maybe the homeless have to leave then - I don't know as we didn't stay out that late.



I just went to Waikiki on Monday evening.  Went to the Sheraton for drinks with GregT and Slum808.  I took a quick look around to see if the area was ridden with homeless.   It wasn't and I didn't see any tents in Fort Derussy.  In fact, in my short drive, I didn't see anyone or any tents either.

I go to Waikiki a few times per month.  I haven't noticed many people who seem to bring down the area like you are suggesting.   I'll look again more carefully and walk around to check it out.  

To me, Waikiki is a vibrant area with mostly tourists and entertainers.


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## GregT (Feb 20, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Went to the Sheraton for drinks with GregT and Slum808.



The cocktails and conversation were great!  Thanks again for coming down, and hope to do it again another time, with more of our Oahu contingent...

Best,

Greg


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## zcrider (Feb 21, 2013)

I will be back soon to make my own assessment, but going off a story my friend told that was just there weeks ago, I would say it has gone down hill.  On the main street in Wikiki they got to witness a grown man pooping right there for all to see.   Gross!!  I did not ask for any details, so can't comment more then that, but I would say that is pretty bad!!!  I hope I don't have the same experience.  I experienced Wikiki my last visit 2 years ago when we stayed at the HHV.  I did not witness anything scary during that trip, but it was our least favorite Hawaii experience in general.  This time we are trying out the Marriott Ko'Olina and Disney Aluani resorts.  We will stick more to the less developed side of the island and hoping for a completely different experience.  Wish me luck to miss any of the "problems" listed here and have a completely enjoyable trip.


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## benyu2010 (Feb 21, 2013)

AKE said:


> Despite the weather, there are lots of homeless people in Canada as well but they seem to be discouraged from where the tourists congregate. In Waikiki around the old Fort Derussey (near Hilton Hawaiian Village) there is a huge park but it is millitary property (I think) and there is not one homeless person camped out there. If the park can be maintained to a standard where tourists feel safe to walk through, then why not the main drag (Kalakaua)? It is somewhat threatening / intimidating to literally have to literally step over / walk around groups of homeless people, and especially once the sun goes down. Once again each can choose their lifestyle but if a tourist does not feel comfortable, they will not come back.



Ft. DeRussy and adjacent Hale Koa Hotel is part of MWR program unde DoD. It is federal property and military installation. Thus, it is understandable that no homeless camps in the area. Trespassing on military base is serious federal crime. 

"Ladies" and drug are the oldest trade of the society and you will find them everywhere if you want/need to. I feel pity for homeless, some are poor, some are addicts, and many are mentally ill veterans falled through the cracks over the years.

I do not know where you heard the rule of leaning on the wall in Time Sqaure. It may make sense if it is Ti'anmen Sqaure. I have lived in NYC for 10+ years and regularly visit family and friends there every year. I have never heard of the rule, and never heard anyone was fined or prosecuted for such action. If it does exist, I guess it is no different than its $50 for illegal street crossing?!


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## AKE (Feb 22, 2013)

[QUOTE
I do not know where you heard the rule of leaning on the wall in Time Sqaure. It may make sense if it is Ti'anmen Sqaure. I have lived in NYC for 10+ years and regularly visit family and friends there every year. I have never heard of the rule, and never heard anyone was fined or prosecuted for such action. If it does exist, I guess it is no different than its $50 for illegal street crossing?![/QUOTE]

It happened to us about 6 years ago.  We were waiting for a tour bus in Time Square late one afternoon with 2 of our sons (early 20's - short hair, neatly dressed wearing collared shirts, no tattoos, earrings, body piercings etc etc).  My oldest was leaning against a wall as we had been on the go all day and we were all pretty tired.  All of a sudden a special constable (not sure of the name - they help the police I think) came up to us and told us that there was no loitering in Time Square and as our son was leaning on a wall, this was taken as loitering. He was literally ordered to stand up straight and away from the wall.  I could not believe it so I looked around and sure enough, there was no-one leaning on walls, sitting on the ground, etc while waiting for the tour buses.


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