# Long term [care] insurance? Did you buy it?



## dixie (May 21, 2014)

We are researching it. Would love to know your thoughts.
We are in our 60's. Pretty pricey.
Thanks


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## DeniseM (May 21, 2014)

Are you sure you mean long term "health" care - or do you mean "long term care" ?


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## Helaine (May 21, 2014)

I wrestled with this too.  It's much cheaper if you buy it in your 40's or 50's ( and REALLY cheap in your 20's) because you have more time to pay in before they feel they will have to pay out.

There are several questions I considered - can you afford to pay for Long Term Care (LTC) without it?  Can your children afford to bear those costs?  Are your children able to take care of you then?  Will it give you peace of mind to know it's taken care of and you won't be a burden on anyone and you'll still have money/property left for your children/heirs?

I think it's probably a different answer for each person.


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## x3 skier (May 21, 2014)

I had a group term life policy with my employer that eventually expired. When it did, I applied the premium I was paying to LTC and never missed the cash. 

I did it primarily to maintain my estate for the kids. I probably could get by without LTC insurance by paying but since I could stand the premium, my retirement funds will go to the kids instead of the nursing home. 

Cheers


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## Dojan123 (May 21, 2014)

I am in my 40's. What type of premium do you think I would get for LTC. Based on family history I am concern about needing it sooner than most. Any recommendations who to call? 


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## artringwald (May 21, 2014)

What I concluded about long term care insurance you don't need it if you don't have much money or if you have a great deal of money. If you don't have much, when you're money runs out, the state will pay for it. If you have a great deal, than you can pay for your own long term care. If extended long term care would deplete what your want to pass on to your heirs, then you might consider it, but paying the premiums will also deplete your estate. The truth is, not many elderly people that end up in a nursing home last more than two years. When we were 60, we decided not to buy it.


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## Luanne (May 21, 2014)

We are both in our 60's and have not purchased it.  I guess we believe in living dangerously.


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2014)

I brought it at 57. I don't have any kids and my siblings MOSTLY live 1900-3200 miles from me ... My current premium is $710 per quarter - with every 3 years I can opt in for inflation kick up in rate for higher benefits - there is a slight rate increase each year.

My mother was unable to care for herself independently from age 73 with her last 16 months in a fulltime (being feed and not walking) passing on just months shy of her 80th birthday. She had required in home care 24x7 for 4+ years before going into a nursing home. My father was her fulltime caregiver, with support from 2 daughters nearby. My siblings were horrified that her in home caregivers were found thru my locale connections (one owed me money, another was found via small sandwich shop's cook's neighbor's son's girlfriend, 3rd one via a clerk at a WAWA store).

My father required 24x7 home care for 20 months before going into assisted living for 5 months before his passing (he would have remained home longer except he decided to stay in bed). The LTC did pay for that assistance (I believe as these were agency provided).

Not good odds. Got mine via USAA connections.

My older brother got his 20 years before me even though he is just a few years older than I. His quarterly premiums are under $325.


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## PStreet1 (May 21, 2014)

My husband purchased it years before I did--I didn't see a real need.  Eventually, I decided to purchase it for me, and I've paid much higher premiums than he has.  One of the factors that influenced me was looking at typical costs for a month in a good quality nursing home and looking at the cost of the long term policy.  When I saw how many years, even at the rate I'm paying, I would have to pay premiums to equal the cost of a few months, I decided to pay and save the estate for my children.

It is vital to have cost of living increases built into the policy you get if you decide to purchase.


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## Passepartout (May 21, 2014)

LTC insurance is really for middle income people. Too poor, and Medicaid will cover you, . Albeit not in luxury. But your needs are met. For the wealthy, or 'blessed', you can afford your own care. After all, THAT'S why we save. No one saves to pass it on to the undeserving kids. If they don't save as well, that's their problem. Job #1 is to care for yourself.

Jim


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2014)

Dojan123 said:


> I am in my 40's. What type of premium do you think I would get for LTC. Based on family history I am concern about needing it sooner than most. Any recommendations who to call?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



The policies have MORE to do with your health. I went on a serious diet - lost 40+ pounds. I had acquired a doctor who decided to seriously WHINE at me  every 3 months and get lab tests (re: blood & urine) every 6 months. Every visit I got weighed. Everything was written into my records - over 2 years with the SLOW but constant weight loss. Then I applied for LTC. My super-nurse sister (she was awarded THAT TITLE by her RN professors 30+ years ago when she got that award graduating from her RN nursing diploma hospital program) - told me I would NOT QUALIFY at all for LTC. Bad health habits - fat -not a gym person - etc. I got the SUPER discount rate - (not the base rate or surcharge 15% or surcharge 30% rate). The sales person - older man - was MORE EXCITED than I when he called to say I was accepted with the DISCOUNT rate -- I was the 1st person THAT month (and it was late in the month) -- he was hoping I would get the BASE rate, but was figuring I get hit with the 15% surcharge. He was giggly for me - telling me almost all his prior discounted clients were into exercise programs and/or runners. 

I did NOT have to get a physical by the insurance company's doctor - my medical records were very complete in detail with a long enough history and multiple lab reports. The insurance company's RN did interview me via a phone call for 45-60 minutes. My salesman warned me that mostly likely an RN would come to my home to collect fluids, blood pressure reading, physical assessment (stair climbing for example) and do a personal interview.

So to improve your odds and lower your rates, start with a gym program and steady weight loss; see your doctor every 3 months and MAKE sure all data is entered into your office records. Get blood and urine testing every 6 months. Do this at least 2+ years. 

My other sister enjoys the gym - she regularly tells me about the NEW members in her various exercise classes. The ones who TOUGH it out for 3-4 weeks, do improve and start seeing results - coed classes and daytime workouts. 

I have had 4 years with LTC insurance. I am down another 10+ pounds.


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## Dojan123 (May 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the info. I am less worried about my estate for the kids as much as I would like a quality place when I need it. I will let you know what I find out. I am not the most healthy person at 41 so I expect my rates will be higher. 


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2014)

Dojan123 said:


> Thanks for all the info. I am less worried about my estate for the kids as much as I would like a quality place when I need it. I will let you know what I find out. I am not the most healthy person at 41 so I expect my rates will be higher.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



At 41, take a year or two to improve your health. Remember, YOU might NOT qualify. I started to worry about my health because my one knee was bothering me. I used to ski during my 20s. I knew about LTC as my mother did NOT qualify but my father did. 

Our family got our policies thru USAA seminars/referrals at different times (USA Army officier's association - now open to all former military members & their families. Yes, the car insurance commercial). My policy is a John Hancock Long-Term Care (I looked it up for my fellow Tuggers).


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## Quiet Pine (May 21, 2014)

I bought LTC insurance at age 55, a policy that covers my husband and me. There was a big discount (I think 50%) for covering both of us. We had no health problems and received the least expensive rate. I bought a 10-pay policy, paying annual premiums until I turned 65. That way, when I no longer had a paycheck, I no longer paid premiums. There's a 90-day elimination period (the deductible), lifetime coverage, a 5% annual inflation adjustment, and an initial daily benefit of $80 (current daily benefit is $174). I don't expect the policy to pay 100%, just to help cover costs. The premiums were $2,300 a year, or a total of $23,000 after 10 years. The company is Allianz, and I don't think they offer 10-pays any more.


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## LisaH (May 21, 2014)

Great info. One question: Sounds like LTC IS BEST PURCHASED if you are middle or upper middle class. Above what net worth one might be sufficient enough to not worry about it?


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## VacationForever (May 21, 2014)

Try AARP, they have good LTCI rates.  I bought mine 5 years ago from AARP.  I asked AARP for a local agent that I could meet and talk to.  When I met the agent, it turned out that this agent was selling many LTCI products and started going through different insurers and products but when I told him that I had looked at AARP rates, he stopped and said that to be honest, the AARP LTCI provided the best value and I really did not need to look at other products if what I was looking for was value.  It is cheaper because it is a group rate as opposed to buying one that is not part of a group. 

I bought $200 per day policy with compounded inflation rider built in.  I figure it will help pay for half my care in the worst case scenario.  AARP policy back then had policies that went up to $1K per day, which is $365K a year.  Most policies also have an unlimited life time option which commands higher premium.   

LTCI is suitable for middle to high net worth people.  The reason is that having LTCI changes the mindset of paying for care.  We know many really rich people who refuse to pay for care because they want to leave the money to their heir or see that it is wasting the money on themselves as opposed to spending insurers' money where they have already paid into it.  But if you are seriously looking at self-insuring, plan on spending up at a worst case of up to $200K a year (24x7 home care in CA) and plan for 5 years, although most people only need that level of care for 1 to 2 years before they die.  So if you can set aside $1 Million at net present value for your own care, then you are probably ok.  But if you are cursed and need longer care than $1 million can buy and don't have enough set aside then you are out of luck.


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## geekette (May 21, 2014)

LisaH said:


> Great info. One question: Sounds like LTC IS BEST PURCHASED if you are middle or upper middle class. Above what net worth one might be sufficient enough to not worry about it?



cost of worst case scenario incident +  ((ongoing annual treatment  +  room and board) * number of years treatment and facility required))  

indexed for inflation


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## SMHarman (May 21, 2014)

I'm not in any way an expert on this but had a bit of a crash course earlier this week. 
Medicare does not cover this. 

Eventually you are poor enough for mediaid.  Medicaid will be looking to get 60 months of payments out of you or run out of money before benefits kick in. Primary resident and retirement account balances don't count but everything else does. 
So if you have multiple properties or a brokerage account with sufficient assets you may want to investigate, esp if you know the monthly LTC in your area. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## stmartinfan (May 21, 2014)

We bought recently in our 60s. Both in good health so that helped.  We also got a joint policy, where the total period of coverage can be split between us, which has a lower cost.  The odds are that, as a couple, if we are both alive, the healthier will be able to care for the other for at least some period.  So we both don't need the separate policies with the same period of coverage.  Our plan also covers a variety of in home services that will allow us to live in our home longer, which would be my preference, and also be cheaper for the insurer than a care facility.


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## Helaine (May 21, 2014)

Dojan123 said:


> Thanks for all the info. I am less worried about my estate for the kids as much as I would like a quality place when I need it. I will let you know what I find out. I am not the most healthy person at 41 so I expect my rates will be higher.


 
When I was looking, I was told that if you are concerned about not qualifying, you should do everything you can to improve your health and habits before you apply.  They said once you are turned down, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get someone else to cover you.

You don't need to get a policy to cover the whole yearly cost of care.  You can get one to supplement the amount you can afford to pay.  Many cover home health care as well and that could last for a few years before the nursing home.  The actual care in a nursing home they said was usually one to three years, seldom more.  

Most policy premiums are dependent on how many years of care you want covered (e.g. 3 years or 5 years) and how much you want them to pay daily.  An inflation adjustment is usually offered for additional cost.

Starting at age 40, your premiums will be far less than what 50 and 60 year olds are being quoted because you will be paying in longer.


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## GetawaysRus (May 21, 2014)

Quiet Pine said:


> I bought LTC insurance at age 55, a policy that covers my husband and me. There was a big discount (I think 50%) for covering both of us. We had no health problems and received the least expensive rate. I bought a 10-pay policy, paying annual premiums until I turned 65. That way, when I no longer had a paycheck, I no longer paid premiums. There's a 90-day elimination period (the deductible), lifetime coverage, a 5% annual inflation adjustment, and an initial daily benefit of $80 (current daily benefit is $174). I don't expect the policy to pay 100%, just to help cover costs. The premiums were $2,300 a year, or a total of $23,000 after 10 years. The company is Allianz, and I don't think they offer 10-pays any more.



Wow, that's quite a good rate.  I've never heard of a "10-pay" before.  You don't say how long ago you purchased the policy (a dead giveaway of your age), but odds are that this purchase was quite some time ago.

My wife and I bought a similar type of plan from Genworth about 6-7 years ago.  We were in our early 50s at the time.  We started at $140 per day MDB (maximum daily benefit) with a 5% annual inflation adjustment (so that now we're getting close to $200 per day).  There is a similar 90 day elimination period.  If one of us dies, the surviving spouse pays no further premiums (that benefit is no longer available from Genworth).  We pay a little over $1000 per person per year, and so far Genworth has not raised our premiums (which may not hold true forever).

A few more thoughts:
1. If you are interested in LTC, it is worth considering a purchase when you are younger.  Not only are the rates lower, but you are healthier.  If you wait until you develop some medical issue, the insurance companies may not accept you.
2. I am self-employed.  For those who are self-employed, LTC premiums are a Federal tax deduction.  This reduces the cost substantially for us.
3. Premiums for newly-issued LTC policies have been rising.
4. The issue of how much insurance to purchase is an important one.  It will vary depending on where you live, since nursing home costs vary considerably.  In retrospect, I wonder if we should have started at a higher MDB.  Nursing home costs in my area have risen faster than our 5% inflation protection during the years since we made our purchase.  My brother and his wife (both age 57 and healthy) recently purchased a policy.  Their agent recommended that they start at an MDB of $300.  Their premium is triple what mine is, both because of the higher MDB and because they are purchasing about 7 years after we did and at an older age.
5. There is no guarantee that your premium will be locked in forever.  The insurers usually do maintain the right to raise premiums in the future if necessary.
6. Finally, this is a complex product.  You've got a fair bit of homework to do if you are considering a purchase.  Most of use are quite familiar with auto or homeowner's insurance, but I found LTC a more difficult product to understand.


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## GetawaysRus (May 21, 2014)

Helaine said:


> They said once you are turned down, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get someone else to cover you.



This was not true in our case.

I actually applied first for a NY Life LTC policy that was being offered at my place of employment.  NY Life accepted me but turned down my wife.  

Since I wanted both of us covered by the same carrier, we shopped and then applied with Genworth.  I was accepted.  She was also accepted, but Genworth did require an in-home face-to-face interview before agreeing to accept her.  The interview was odd - she has no cognitive issues, but it appeared to be a screening interview for early Alzheimer's because the questions were largely cognitive.

And yes, both insurers went through our medical records with a fine-tooth comb.  For example, NY Life dug up some stuff from my medical history that I had long forgotten and which I considered insignificant.


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## Helaine (May 21, 2014)

GetawaysRus said:


> This was not true in our case.



That's good to know.  Our company was offering LTC and the reps who spoke to us told us that.  It was a recommendation to get your ducks in a row before applying.


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## Timeshare Von (May 21, 2014)

If I get that sick, my "long term care" plan is a one way ticket to Oregon.


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## MuranoJo (May 22, 2014)

I set us both up with the company group policy about 5 years ago.  It really was a no-brainer for me because the rates were/are good with the group policy, plus other considerations, such as in-home care if needed.

If you've ever taken care of an elder loved one, you would understand the amount of physical and emotional investment this requires.  That, plus not wanting to leave the surviving spouse destitute as nursing home costs depleted most of the assets, were enough to convince me.


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## easyrider (May 22, 2014)

Last year I thought long term care insurance was something we would be purchasing. Today, Im not sure long term care insurance is the way to go. The reasons are that the companies that sell ltc insurance only pay out under certain conditions, to certain facilities, only a fixed amount and these companies have the ability to raise premiums. 

http://howardgleckman.com/2012/08/whats-killing-the-long-term-care-insurance-industry/

In our personal experience we purchased ltc insurance for my wifes parents. When her father passed after using over $100,000 of benefits my wifes mothers premium was considered paid. To date we have used about $125,000. worth of benefits for her. My point is that she will likely receive her full benefit package of $500,000 for maybe an out of pocket cost of $35,000. 

So it worked good for them but now there seems to be problems with this business model. People are using the product and the insurance companies only make money if you pass away before you use the benefit.  

The only thing that makes sense to me anymore for estate planning are family trusts and life insurance. 

Bill


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## Bruce W (May 22, 2014)

Genworth notified us last year around this time of a rate increase of 15%, 14% and 15% for the next 3 years. Had option to reduce coverage to keep premiums the same, cancel, though I dont recall details , or go with it. After 12 years of paying we just went with the increase. 
I didn't see anyone mention the feature that if one spouse passes, the others premium are eliminated going forward.


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## rapmarks (May 22, 2014)

my two aunts purchased policies through Genworth when they were 60, paid 220 a month for 30 years.  aunt Carmel's policy started kicking in at age 88, gets 3800 or so a month, about half of her costs, she is now 92. when the premium went way up, her twin cut back, and would have received $92 a day, but her policy never kicked in although she was in assisted living.
after her third hospitalization in two months, her policy  kicked in, and i received about $500 to cover her bills when she passed away.  
then, about six months later, they discovered they should have been paying for the past three years.  I received a check for three years of payment, return of premiums, and interest.   we are still working on her tax return for last year, and hopefully won't owe the IRS most of that money, which is in her sister's account now
my sister looked into getting a policy, as she is older than her husband, and they no longer will sell policies that will pay past a certain number of years.
my aunt's costs were much less than my mother's, we were paying out of pocket over ten thousand a month when she passed away.  most nursing homes made you prove you had the cash to pay for three years of care before they would take you.   we were told at that time that there were no beds for Medicaid patients in the state, but certain facilities would take you as a private patient and keep you if you ran out of money and went on Medicaid.    Even as private pay, the only bed we could find for my mom was over an hour's drive away and it turned out to be horrible. all the beds were taken, because nursing homes are switching to short term care for patients getting rehabilitation under Medicare (about 100 days covered), the same bed got them $18000 a month instead of $10000/


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## dixie (May 22, 2014)

Thank you so much for your replies. We are both in good health (so far). We eat very healthy food. We are quite active and go to the gym and or do WA and Zumba. Our house is paid for. Financially secure. So trying to decide if we really need to start paying $200 plus a month for LTC.


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## bogey21 (May 22, 2014)

Back when I was about 45 I bought a LTC Policy.  Increasing premiums, policy limits and benefit reductions soured me on it.  I have the money so I opted to move into (see below) a CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community) where my monthly rent is significantly more than double what I would be paying for LTC Insurance.  It costs me about $2,000 a month.

I say "move into" which is not quite accurate.  I have my apartment there; it is already 100% furnished with my stuff; I eat there 4 or 5 times a week; I socialize there; all my mail goes there; but I live off campus in a duplex.  The advantages of this are that I don't have to look for a place in a pressure situation; I am guaranteed coverage for life, not just a number of years; etc.  All I have to do to move in is move my clothes which are not already there.

Yes, it is more costly, significantly more than double the cost of a Premium LTC Policy, but it gives me comfort that my kids won't have a problem finding me a place and convincing me that it is time to go and that the place they have chosen is suitable for me.

George


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## easyrider (May 22, 2014)

> I didn't see anyone mention the feature that if one spouse passes, the others premium are eliminated going forward.



This is a TransAmerica ltc policy bought sometime in the late 90's.

Bill


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## isisdave (May 22, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> LTC insurance is really for middle income people. Too poor, and Medicaid will cover you, . Albeit not in luxury. But your needs are met. For the wealthy, or 'blessed', you can afford your own care. After all, THAT'S why we save. No one saves to pass it on to the undeserving kids. If they don't save as well, that's their problem. Job #1 is to care for yourself.
> 
> Jim



Yes, that's generally true, but Medicaid doesn't offer the options that you get with LTC (for example, in-home care). And some places, there are few openings (i.e. waiting list) for Medicaid places, and they're not very nice. "Not in luxury" is understatement.

DW and I bought policies from Genworth about 12 years ago at age 52. The benefits have a dollar cap but no time limit (that was only a little more than one with a 3-year limit). I think the benefit was $150/day with  5% cost-of-living increase and it now is over $250/day.  At the time, we were squarely in the middle class "these costs will kill your retirement plan if something happens early" phase, both self-employed (with health insurance challenges now thankfully relieved by ACA and in a year or two by Medicare), and a child. There is a provision that after paying ten years without a claim, and upon the death of one of us, the premiums stop on the survivor. We bought the plan with the longest exclusion period offered -- 90 days at least, maybe 180 -- as we knew we could cover that, and it really reduced the price. If you're on the fence, and think you might have the possible cost covered but you're not sure, you could take this path of self-insuring part, with a backup in case you live a lot longer than the 2.3-year average stay.

This costs us just under a $300/month for both and has not been raised. We live in California, and this is a "partnership" plan that has some special provisions including asset protection, and I think some provisions that defer or help minimize rate increases. Anyway, we have $43,000 "invested" and hopefully will pour in another $80,000. Our finances are healthier now, the child is trying hard to become an adult, and we might at some point decide to spend that $3,600 a year differently. But if we need fulltime care, it will not take long for us to recover everything we've put into the plan.


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## rapmarks (May 22, 2014)

isisdave said:


> Yes, that's generally true, but Medicaid doesn't offer the options that you get with LTC (for example, in-home care). And some places, there are few openings (i.e. waiting list) for Medicaid places, and they're not very nice. "Not in luxury" is understatement.



the wait lists are years long.   we had my mother on several, back in 2012.  we have never heard from any of them.


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## WinniWoman (May 22, 2014)

Timeshare Von said:


> If I get that sick, my "long term care" plan is a one way ticket to Oregon.



I'm with you on this one! I am going to get a helium tank plastic bag and hoard sleeping pills and "Goodnight Irene". Or, there's always the bullet.

Honestly- if LTC insurance is for middle class people- forget it. There is barely a middle class anymore- they are the working class. They are stuck, as usual, between a rock and a hard place: they can't afford those kinds of premiums and they can't afford Long Term Care. 

I personally will not be taking it out. I worked in Home Health Care most of my life (management) and went through a lot with my parents also, and I still don't see the value of it compared with the cost of the premiums and all the other pitfalls involved with it.


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## easyrider (May 22, 2014)

Yup, that in home care benefit is handy. We have a person that comes in 3 times a week to help with bathing, laundry and whatever needs to be done with my mother in law. We also have a full time 24/7 care giver that lives at her house. The out of pocket cost is about $80,000 per year to keep her living at home and this includes all of her medical costs, care costs and home expenses. 

The nursing home, which she has been a few times now, costs about $225 per day and the benefit for nursing home care is $170 per day. Her social security and retirement is used to help pay the difference but still leaves us short about $25 - $30 a day. 

They both wanted to pass at home and so far, so good. Because she has dementia that affects her short term memory and has had a few mini strokes that have crippled her, her care level is high. She still recognizes that she is at home and recognizes all of the family members but her quality of life is not anything like it was even a few years ago.  

So even though I could place her into a nursing home and be money ahead by using the ltc insurance, I wouldn't do this unless she becomes a 100% memory loss person or I run out of funds to keep her home.

I sucks to get old but everyone does. If your counting on taking care of yourself it might be a good idea to have a plan now as opposed to letting what ever happens happen. 


Bill


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## Rose Pink (May 22, 2014)

This subject frustrates me.  I've looked into it but so far the premiums quoted are more than I feel we can afford.  OTOH, I know the costs of nursing home care and they are unbelievable.  

An accountant friend told me she doesn't trust the LTC industry.  With the boomers aging the costs are soaring and some of these companies may not be there when it comes time for the massive payout.

I will be looking into it again this autumn but I don't have much hope of finding a product I can feel good about.


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## isisdave (May 22, 2014)

The companies are New York Life and Genworth and similar, and they're all backed up by re-insurance.  If they're not around to pay out at least partial benefits on something as predictable as life and LTC claims, then this will be a relatively minor feature of the greater collapse of the economic system.


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## Icc5 (May 22, 2014)

*We have Genworth*



dixie said:


> We are researching it. Would love to know your thoughts.
> We are in our 60's. Pretty pricey.
> Thanks



I'm 63 and my wife is 59.  We bought our policy when I was just hitting 50 and pay aprox. $3200 total for the two of us.  Our policy has escalators that cover increases in rates and if one of us is using it the other doesn't pay.  
We bought the policy to really protect our children so they will be able to inherit the house, and other things.  We aren't wealthy but set to be comfortable.
I don't want to ever become a burden to my family so we have set things up the best way we found to do it.  This is in California and I know other places are much different or should I rephrase it and say we are much different.
Bart


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## Quiet Pine (May 22, 2014)

GetawaysRus said:


> I've never heard of a "10-pay" before.  You don't say how long ago you purchased the policy.



I bought it in 1996 and retired in 2006. I've mentioned my age (72) before, so my intention wasn't to be coy.
I agree with those who say 2-3 years may be long enough, and I seriously considered a 5-year benefit, but dementia can lengthen the time spent in custodial care. My aunt had Alzheimers and was in a facility for 20 years. My father had dementia for more than 5 years. So I decided to take the plunge and go for lifetime. It didn't raise the premium as much as I feared, largely because it's rare for people to need care for that long. I now have a friend who was in a facility for 3 years and then had to return home because her LTC insurance expired!
LongTermCare.gov says: Someone turning age 65 today has almost a 70% chance of needing some type of long-term care services and supports in their remaining years


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## isisdave (May 22, 2014)

I had never heard of 10-pay LTC insurance before either. I would have been very tempted, at 52, to pay that way.

GetawaysRus, 10-pay whole life insurance, for example, means a policy you pay on for ten years rather than forever. [There is also single-pay ... you cough up a VERY large one-time payment.] During the ten years, it's quite a bit more expensive, of course. But I bought some for my daughter when she was only a few years old, and because it has a very long time to grow, it wasn't much at all.

A 10-pay LTC policy, paid for during the last ten years of your work career when your income is max, would free you from worrying about premiums during retirement. However, it would probably cut severely into the timeshare budget ...


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## elaine (May 22, 2014)

my Mom is 72. I looked at the premiums, etc. and advised against it. She is going to self-insure. DH and I bought it through my work when we were in our 40s. We are also using it as a disability/extra care policy while we work, as it kicks in after 90 days of disabled in 2 of 5 life functions. We pay $50 PP per month for $700 per week of coverage.


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## WinniWoman (May 23, 2014)

"A 10-pay LTC policy, paid for during the last ten years of your work career when your income is max, would free you from worrying about premiums during retirement. However, it would probably cut severely into the timeshare budget "

Who's income these days is at it's max during the last 10 years of work? Most of us have lost jobs and had to take lower paying jobs in this economy- if we can even find jobs at our age!


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## stmartinfan (May 23, 2014)

Many of the long term care insurers have left the field because they were loosing money.  They miscalculated on premiums and on the number of people that would pay for a period and then drop before getting old enough to use benefits.  There was a period a few years ago when there was lots of media coverage about big increases in premiums and other changes in the industry. So it's possible that features people mention from policies bought more that 5 years ago are no longer being offered in current policies.  

The good news is that the current insurers like Genworth are the ones that have been successful and appear to be in it for the long term


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## VacationForever (May 24, 2014)

AARP LTCI as I had mentioned above is a contracted group rate.  They have gone through Genworth, MetLife and John Hancock and they are all companies with great records.  When I bought mine through AARP, it was insured by Genworth.  If you are in CA, there is a list of about 5 or 6 LTCI companies that are recommended by the state as ones with good track records.  I believe all 3 are on the list.


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## MuranoJo (May 25, 2014)

Our group LTCI is through John Hancock, and in the past ~6 years, we've had one rate increase.  

For those who may be interested, here's a calculator from AARP to estimate current nursing home costs in your area.


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## WinniWoman (May 25, 2014)

muranojo said:


> Our group LTCI is through John Hancock, and in the past ~6 years, we've had one rate increase.
> 
> For those who may be interested, here's a calculator from AARP to estimate current nursing home costs in your area.



What difference does it make? Nursing Homes are unaffordable for most average people. Plus, how do you know what area you will be living in in 10, 20 or 30 years?


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## radmoo (May 25, 2014)

muranojo said:


> Our group LTCI is through John Hancock, and in the past ~6 years, we've had one rate increase.
> 
> For those who may be interested, here's a calculator from AARP to estimate current nursing home costs in your area.



I took out LTC policy in 2007 just shy of turning 55 as it put me in lower premium bracket.  My carrier is John Hancock and there has been one premium increase to date.


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## Wyominguy (May 25, 2014)

*We purchased a year ago*

We purchased LTC insurance for my wife and I last year. We are 63/62 yrs old. This policy does not require that you enter a nursing home. Instead you can even receive payment for a family member to take care of you at home. Premiums are about $4,000/year for the two of us.

Neil


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## MuranoJo (May 26, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> What difference does it make? Nursing Homes are unaffordable for most average people. Plus, how do you know what area you will be living in in 10, 20 or 30 years?



I have no idea what difference it may make--I simply thought it may provide some value for those who may be curious about nursing home costs in various areas.  Of course nursing homes are unaffordable for most average people--um, isn't LTC the topic of this thread?  

So if you have no idea where you'll be living in 10, 20 or 30 years, I guess you could hold off on facing this issue until you get settled.  

Edited to add:  I just noticed a previous post of yours and I agree this whole issue must be especially frustrating to those who've lost employment and are struggling to find decent replacement positions.


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## Beefnot (May 26, 2014)

Me and my wife bought LTC insurance late last year through MidAmerica, about $2100 or so per year for both of us total. We are 40 and 41, respectively.


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## WinniWoman (May 26, 2014)

muranojo said:


> I have no idea what difference it may make--I simply thought it may provide some value for those who may be curious about nursing home costs in various areas.  Of course nursing homes are unaffordable for most average people--um, isn't LTC the topic of this thread?
> 
> So if you have no idea where you'll be living in 10, 20 or 30 years, I guess you could hold off on facing this issue until you get settled.
> 
> Edited to add:  I just noticed a previous post of yours and I agree this whole issue must be especially frustrating to those who've lost employment and are struggling to find decent replacement positions.



I guess I am cynical about the whole thing. I worked in the Home Care industry for 20 years and also in the health insurance industry and have seen it all.(I work in a radiology center now). I've been through it with my parents as well. Insurance Insurance Insurance- you need a third job just to pay for all the insurance policies these days- auto, home, life, disability, health, LTC (we have all of these except the LTC)- the cost of all these policies requires an entire take home salary! Then you have taxes, taxes, taxes....income, property, school, SS, Medicare, NYS Short term disability, sales taxes...If we have an extra $4000 per year to spend, I am using it to take some hard earned vacations from these hell hole jobs we have while we are still able (our drive-to timeshare, a rental house on the lake, an occasional National Park maybe. Hope to go to Italy someday. Only been abroad once for a week). I'll be damned if we are going to be strapped for money in order to pay an insurance company. I hope to plan to go out quietly with some sleeping pills or whatever.


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## bogey21 (May 26, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> Me and my wife bought LTC insurance late last year through MidAmerica, about $2100 or so per year for both of us total. We are 40 and 41, respectively.



I started out with a LTC policy when I was about your age (maybe a touch older) but got disillusioned as the premiums kept going up to the point that they became rediculous.  The rules then were that my premium couldn't increase unless the premiums for the whole "class" increased.  Guess what?  The premiums for the "class" kept going up.  I dropped the policy frustrated and disillusioned.

George


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## VacationForever (May 26, 2014)

muranojo said:


> So if you have no idea where you'll be living in 10, 20 or 30 years, I guess you could hold off on facing this issue until you get settled.



LTCI policies pay regardless of where you live.  The Genworth policy that I have pays 75% of the amount if living out of the US.  100% everywhere in the US.


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## WinniWoman (May 26, 2014)

sptung said:


> LTCI policies pay regardless of where you live.  The Genworth policy that I have pays 75% of the amount if living out of the US.  100% everywhere in the US.



The reason this was stated is because the poster mentioned an online site that could be utilized to find out the cost of nursing home care in the area that you live in.


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## MuranoJo (May 26, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> I guess I am cynical about the whole thing. I worked in the Home Care industry for 20 years and also in the health insurance industry and have seen it all.(I work in a radiology center now). I've been through it with my parents as well. Insurance Insurance Insurance- you need a third job just to pay for all the insurance policies these days- auto, home, life, disability, health, LTC (we have all of these except the LTC)- the cost of all these policies requires an entire take home salary! Then you have taxes, taxes, taxes....income, property, school, SS, Medicare, NYS Short term disability, sales taxes...If we have an extra $4000 per year to spend, I am using it to take some hard earned vacations from these hell hole jobs we have while we are still able (our drive-to timeshare, a rental house on the lake, an occasional National Park maybe. Hope to go to Italy someday. Only been abroad once for a week). I'll be damned if we are going to be strapped for money in order to pay an insurance company. I hope to plan to go out quietly with some sleeping pills or whatever.



Yes, it's amazing how much we pay in overall insurance costs.  And we recently added an umbrella policy--however, that was peanuts compared to some of the other policies. 

If I had to pay LTC premiums purchased today (at older ages), I'm sure we probably wouldn't do it.  And if we got into a dire financial situation, we'd certainly consider dropping what we have.


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## MuranoJo (May 26, 2014)

sptung said:


> LTCI policies pay regardless of where you live.  The Genworth policy that I have pays 75% of the amount if living out of the US.  100% everywhere in the US.



I'm aware of that (but perhaps not everyone is).   That's why I inserted a special smilie in that message.


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## VacationForever (May 27, 2014)

muranojo said:


> I'm aware of that (but perhaps not everyone is).   That's why I inserted a special smilie in that message.



Got it.   I was just skimming through the thread... Bottom line is LTCI is a good insurance and I am a strong advocate for it.  We should buy while we are still healthy as we won't be eligible to buy when we need it.  I used to believe in self-insurance but not anymore.


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## WinniWoman (May 27, 2014)

muranojo said:


> Yes, it's amazing how much we pay in overall insurance costs.  And we recently added an umbrella policy--however, that was peanuts compared to some of the other policies.
> 
> If I had to pay LTC premiums purchased today (at older ages), I'm sure we probably wouldn't do it.  And if we got into a dire financial situation, we'd certainly consider dropping what we have.



Oh, yeah... forgot about the umbrella policy we have, too.....It's not about a dire financial situation..it's about...do we want to sit in our house and stare out a window everyday with our pile of insurance policies stacked next to us?  Or do we want to have some extra money to actually be able to live and enjoy life while we can? Most people can't afford to do both and eventually something has to give. Pretty soon they will be advising us to insure our air and water- heaven knows what else!


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## SMHarman (May 27, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> Pretty soon they will be advising us to insure our air and water- heaven knows what else!


Lorax, Total Recall anyone?


Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## Fern Modena (May 27, 2014)

Interesting that several of you consider your long term plan to be suicide--or are you joking about it?  Suppose you have a massive stroke or are in a catastrophic accident and decision and action are taken from you? I know, not likely, but could happen.

I'm not willing to take that gamble.  One of my parents and one of my in laws needed nursing care before they died. So I know what it costs, or what it cost then.

I worked for the City and County of San Francisco, so I was eligible for CalPers Long Term Insurance, available to any public employee (City, County, State or Teachers) in California. I took out the insurance at about 45 years old. It has an inflation guard. I currently pay $215. every quarter, which I find reasonable. 

Fern


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## easyrider (May 27, 2014)

Fern, thats a pretty good deal, imo. Did you receive that rate as part of a group or was it because you bought it when you were so young ? 

Bill


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## geekette (May 27, 2014)

Fern Modena said:


> Interesting that several of you consider your long term plan to be suicide--or are you joking about it?  Suppose you have a massive stroke or are in a catastrophic accident and decision and action are taken from you? I know, not likely, but could happen.
> 
> I'm not willing to take that gamble.  One of my parents and one of my in laws needed nursing care before they died. So I know what it costs, or what it cost then.
> 
> ...



I thought I'd read this thread but most definitely missed suicide as option of choice.  I do not think self insuring is the same thing.  

I've never been a public employee, the deal you have will never be available to me.  Employers I've had don't offer LTC because they do not expect me to be here that long and they carry disability on me to gently get me out of the door if I do ... get too sick to work while in their employ.  

I can't see feeding the ins co for decades and maybe never need their product.  Call it suicide if you wish, but I will keep my money and hope vs buy another ins product I may never need at a rate that will be far more than yours.  

Sure, my body might outlive my mind, but that's what trusts are for.  I would not put my trust in insurance instead, but that's my hangup.


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## Fern Modena (May 27, 2014)

Both things. CalPers is group insurance, and rates are lower the younger you start. And they have not had any obscene rate raises along the way. There have been a few, but certainly not every year.

Fern



easyrider said:


> Fern, thats a pretty good deal, imo. Did you receive that rate as part of a group or was it because you bought it when you were so young ?
> 
> Bill


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## Fern Modena (May 27, 2014)

Hey, Chillax geekette. I didn't mean that self insuring is the same as suicide. I was referring to the person who said "pills or something" and the one who said "move to Oregon," which I took to mean legal assisted suicide. There may have been other comments, but I don't remember them.

YOU have a plan, self insurance. I don't call planning on being able to end one's life by choice as a plan (I do believe in Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare including stated end of life decision choices being spelled out, of course).

Fern



geekette said:


> I thought I'd read this thread but most definitely missed suicide as option of choice.  I do not think self insuring is the same thing.
> 
> I've never been a public employee, the deal you have will never be available to me.  Employers I've had don't offer LTC because they do not expect me to be here that long and they carry disability on me to gently get me out of the door if I do ... get too sick to work while in their employ.
> 
> ...


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## vacationhopeful (May 27, 2014)

Fern Modena said:


> Hey, Chillax ....



Fern, is that name "Chillax" a slang term for a "Chill the Ax"-type product? 

Do I live on the wrong side of the country? 

Or do I have to be from an older generation? 

Or is that a AARP magazine term?

An inquiring mind ....

Fern, yes ... all the examples you mention, I caught the same drift of conveyance as you did...


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## Beefnot (May 27, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> Fern, is that name "Chillax" a slang term for a "Chill the Ax"-type product?


 
Chillax is the combo of "chill out" and "relax". Slow your roll, calm down, take it down a notch, etc.


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## GetawaysRus (May 27, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> ...Insurance Insurance Insurance- you need a third job just to pay for all the insurance policies these days- auto, home, life, disability, health, LTC (we have all of these except the LTC)- the cost of all these policies requires an entire take home salary! Then you have taxes, taxes, taxes....income, property, school, SS, Medicare, NYS Short term disability, sales taxes....



I'm amused that you list insurance first and taxes second.

Taxes are my largest expense.

Taxes are my second largest expense.

Taxes are my third largest expense.

Somewhere after that are the expenses related to my home: mortgage, utilities, upkeep, etc.

Insurance is fortunately still small in comparison.  I only wish that my taxes were less than what I pay for insurance.


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## Beefnot (May 27, 2014)

geekette said:


> I can't see feeding the ins co for decades and maybe never need their product. Call it suicide if you wish, but I will keep my money and hope vs buy another ins product I may never need at a rate that will be far more than yours.


 
I can't discount the sentiment, as I kind of feel that way on some level. But hope is not a strategy. I might die tomorrow, but I want to be responsible to my family and plan for living. I might die quickly, but I want to be responsible to my family and plan for dying slowly. 

The very nature of insurance is to purchase risk protection against something that I may not "need". Each person's response may vary. At this point in my life, I opted to forego a little cash today (and every day hereafter) for a lot of security at some unspecified point in the future that I may not ever need or utilize.


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## Fern Modena (May 27, 2014)

As Beefnot explained, it is Chill Out/Relax.  It is used a lot at Chez Modena/Reynoso because Brianna the Bichon knows exactly what it means. We use it as a command for her, to get her to relax and stop barking at the door or the TV  I also find it handy for other uses, it is a great piece of shorthand.

Fern



vacationhopeful said:


> Fern, is that name "Chillax" a slang term for a "Chill the Ax"-type product?
> 
> Do I live on the wrong side of the country?
> 
> ...


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## Passepartout (May 27, 2014)

Your LTC premium seems an excellent deal, Fern. If I had been able to get LTC for that price, I'd likely have done it too. As it is, the self-insurance route will be it. Not too concerned. I only have myself to provide for, and I should have enough assets to last any reasonable time-frame based on family medical history and longevity. A gamble? Yes, but I think a reasonable one.

LTC insurance is, after all a gamble. You are betting you will need the coverage to protect assets or provide care for you if (when) you are no longer able to care for yourself. The insurance carriers, however have banks of actuaries who bet that you will either die without costing them anything, after paying decades of premiums, or they can deny on some technicality- like you didn't go to nursing care first, you have sufficient assets, you need care for longer than they agree to pay, etc. etc, etc.

I doubt there is a 'one-size-fits-all' answer. One just has to make a gut-feeling decision and live with it.

Jim


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## geekette (May 27, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I can't discount the sentiment, as I kind of feel that way on some level. But hope is not a strategy. I might die tomorrow, but I want to be responsible to my family and plan for living. I might die quickly, but I want to be responsible to my family and plan for dying slowly.
> 
> The very nature of insurance is to purchase risk protection against something that I may not "need". Each person's response may vary. At this point in my life, I opted to forego a little cash today (and every day hereafter) for a lot of security at some unspecified point in the future that I may not ever need or utilize.



I have no kids/spouse, am healthy, under 50 and come from long-lived people that have avoided LTC because they stayed healthy.  Everyone has their own deal going on, and I prefer to keep my money growing under my control and pay cash to the extent I can.  Dying broke is not scary to me and if my last penny goes on the day I die, that's perfect, I will have netted out.  

Right now, I am covered many ways by employer and am far from leaving the workforce.  I have no plan to develop a rock solid strategy for long term care at this time and will kick this particular can down the road.  So, sure, short answer right now is Hope.  That doesn't have to satisfy anyone but me.   

Maybe in 5-15 years my mindset changes or maybe it doesn't, but amassing wealth seems like a sensible plan to me for plenty of unknown future needs vs starting to send it out to maybe never benefit from again.  

What is the big risk? Quality of care/facilities?  Is that what you mean by "a lot of security?"   No problem, I'll take that risk.  You'd rather not.  ok.  Neither of us know how the healthcare landscape will change in the next decade or 3.  I like options and money provides options.  

Second big risk?  That it will cost me more if I wait?  Also an acceptable risk to me.   That's why I'm holding and growing the money.  

This thread is interesting as to the various policies, ins cos, experiences people have/had.  I have a very long mistrust of insurance so I'm not keen on just following the herd.  I would likely opt for something close to what Bogey is doing and have a place to go, but I'm so far from leaving the workforce that I don't even know where I'll retire to.  I will not be locking down anything for a very long time.


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## Beefnot (May 27, 2014)

geekette said:


> I have no kids/spouse, am healthy, under 50 and come from long-lived people that have avoided LTC because they stayed healthy. Everyone has their own deal going on, and I prefer to keep my money growing under my control and pay cash to the extent I can. Dying broke is not scary to me and if my last penny goes on the day I die, that's perfect, I will have netted out.
> 
> Right now, I am covered many ways by employer and am far from leaving the workforce. I have no plan to develop a rock solid strategy for long term care at this time and will kick this particular can down the road. So, sure, short answer right now is Hope. That doesn't have to satisfy anyone but me.
> 
> ...


 
I really have no beef with that. Honestly, had not our financial circumstances improved over this past year, I might feasibly have continued to adopt your "strategy" . By lot of security I mean certainty that should either my wife or I require LTC, we will be fully provided for. But at this point in my life, I can afford to fully fund a comfortable retirement, several yearly vacations, a slush fund for college/weddings, and LTC insurance. If that calculus changes, well then foregoing that LTC policy may all of a sudden become an acceptable risk.


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## WinniWoman (May 27, 2014)

I am not against Long Term Care policies. I was just stating that for me and my husband the expense of the premiums would greatly impact our lifestyle today. Not only was his pension just cut to pieces (which he is not eligible for anyway until he is 65) but he can not longer get any raises and neither can I. Our salaries have been "capped" at our jobs! Do you think any of our basic living expenses are "capped"? So, I have an old book, titled "Final Exit" about assisted and planned suicide and I commented that is an option. Sure, something could happen to me BEFORE I am able to implement such an act, but it is a risk I am willing to take so that we can enjoy our years now in the present tense. Besides- I worked in home care and health care all my life and I have seen it all and believe me- death is a better option instead of giving the money to the nursing homes and insurance companies, while just prolonging the inevitable.


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## SunSand (May 27, 2014)

My wife and I locked into a LTC plan in our 40's at a low rate with our employer.  I'm starting to find out, just how important LTC is.  We moved my mother-in-law into an assisted living facility this year.  She'll definitely go through her entire estate in a couple of years.  Then, we'll pick up the tab.  That's what you do.  But we're trying at least, to make the road for our son a little easier.


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## ilene13 (May 27, 2014)

After seeing the amount of money my friends have spent on LTC for their parents my husband and I bought LTC policies from Genworth about 2.5 years ago.  We are currently 63 and 64 years old and in good health.  Our monthly premiums are 250.29 for me and 278.21 for my husband.  They cover $250 per day in a facility or at home.  I could not see paying $12000 per month as my friends did!


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## radmoo (May 27, 2014)

radmoo said:


> I took out LTC policy in 2007 just shy of turning 55 as it put me in lower premium bracket.  My carrier is John Hancock and there has been one premium increase to date.



Premium is $91+/- month


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## WinniWoman (May 28, 2014)

ilene13 said:


> After seeing the amount of money my friends have spent on LTC for their parents my husband and I bought LTC policies from Genworth about 2.5 years ago.  We are currently 63 and 64 years old and in good health.  Our monthly premiums are 250.29 for me and 278.21 for my husband.  They cover $250 per day in a facility or at home.  I could not see paying $12000 per month as my friends did!



Again, good for you but very expensive for average folk. $6000 per year! Another problem I see is that when we stop working, we for sure wouldn't be able to pay those premiums and would have to take money out of our savings to pay for them! Yikes! If we eventually had to stop paying the premiums due to increased unaffordability, we would have wasted that premium money. Especially for people who already live in expensive states, like NY, where our income is taxed to death! (no pun intended)- tough to make those payments. 

No one knows what's to be. We kept my mom at home with her dementia and terminal cancer, with part-time home care paid for with my mom's money (less than a year). Then, we eventually put her in an assisted living facility with Hospice which cost over $55,000 for the 3 months she was there until her death, which was paid for with her savings.


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## WinniWoman (May 28, 2014)

andriew12 said:


> I am also looking for good health insurance company in New York.. Please help!!



What about the ObamaCare exchanges?


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## WinniWoman (May 28, 2014)

radmoo said:


> Premium is $91+/- month




That's a very good rate! Wonder what it is now?


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## Ken555 (May 28, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> That's a very good rate! Wonder what it is now?




Doesn't it all depend on the benefits of the particular plan? This is a great rate relative to others posted here but we don't know what's included. 

I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm younger than many of you but have been considering obtaining a policy since rates should be lower now than in the future for me. 


Sent from my iPad


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## SmithOp (May 28, 2014)

It's never too early to sign up for LTC, we got in mid forties, fifteen years ago.  I just got my annual statement with 5% inflation increase.  My premium is $87.77 a month.

Nursing home 100% up to $215/day
Residential Care 100% up to $150/day
Home & Community Care 100% up to $4515/month
Inflation Protection included
90 day deductible period, once per lifetime.
Waiver of Premium included
Return of Premium Death Benefit included

Through my retirement system - Calpers.

we went through complete liquidation of parents estate for dementia care, not fun.


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## Fern Modena (May 28, 2014)

Gotta love that CalPers plan. I forgot to mention Return of Death Benefit if you die before age 70,or so (not sure exact age)  without using insurance. I know they paid this when Jerry died. 

You know that your spouse, parents and dependent adults are all eligible under your account, right?

Fern



SmithOp said:


> It's never too early to sign up for LTC, we got in mid forties, fifteen years ago.  I just got my annual statement with 5% inflation increase.  My premium is $87.77 a month.
> 
> Nursing home 100% up to $215/day
> Residential Care 100% up to $150/day
> ...


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## WinniWoman (May 28, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> It's never too early to sign up for LTC, we got in mid forties, fifteen years ago.  I just got my annual statement with 5% inflation increase.  My premium is $87.77 a month.
> 
> Nursing home 100% up to $215/day
> Residential Care 100% up to $150/day
> ...



Can anyone purchase this Calpers plan? No- it is, of course, for government employees! Anyway- just found this interesting link about Calpers and its' 85% premium hike to stay solvent. Read the comments below the article....http://calwatchdog.com/2013/02/20/outrage-at-calpers-85-rate-hike-for-long-term-care/


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## SmithOp (May 28, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> Can anyone purchase this Calpers plan? No- it is, of course, for government employees! Anyway- just found this interesting link about Calpers and its' 85% premium hike to stay solvent. Read the comments below the article....http://calwatchdog.com/2013/02/20/outrage-at-calpers-85-rate-hike-for-long-term-care/



I've seen that, I already switched to the 10 yr option, if I'm in care that long just shoot me. That doesn't apply to us anyway, we aren't over 70.  That's for the few that bought in late and now want to keep the lifetime care option.


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## WinniWoman (May 28, 2014)

Good pros and cons article in the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303425504577352031401783756


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## radmoo (May 28, 2014)

Ken555 said:


> Doesn't it all depend on the benefits of the particular plan? This is a great rate relative to others posted here but we don't know what's included.
> 
> I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm younger than many of you but have been considering obtaining a policy since rates should be lower now than in the future for me.
> 
> ...


I do not recall all the particulars but I purchased mid-level plan with inflation protection.  As we live in massachusetts! our estimated health costs are higher than most.  The plan allows for inpatient and/or in home care.  I purchased as part of Hadassah group which was actually less costly than what wS being offered by AARP or my employer( employer benefit wad not available when I took out this coverage.). I would suggest checking with cations organizations to see if they have insurance options.


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## isisdave (May 28, 2014)

My coverage is very similar to SmithOp's but not through CalPers. Benefits are up to about $250 a day and unlimited, and can be spent either on nursing home care or in-home. Basically it's a pool of money you can tap for any covered use.

Bought it from Genworth at age 54, 11 years ago. Premium is about $150 a month. The earlier you buy it. the cheaper, and you don't have to worry about becoming uninsurable. Ask about non-forfeiture benefits if you can't afford it after you stop working. Or ask about paying more up front while still working.

Pick the longest elimination period they offer. This is the "deductible" and makes a huge difference in the cost. If you own timeshares, you can probably afford 6 months of self-insurance, especially if you save the difference in the premium between now and then.


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## Southpaw (Jul 29, 2014)

I'm 59, recently widowed, no kids and just bought LTCI from TransAmerica.  In my discussion with the salesman, I said I was not sure I would need it because I believe I have enough to pay for a nursing home, if it comes to that and I don't have heirs to consider.

He said the *real* reason to have LTCI is in case home health care is needed.  If I go into a nursing home for good, all my expenses are limited - no house, prop taxes, utilities, etc., assuming I sell my house.  

If I am being cared for at home, I still need to pay for all those expenses, plus the cost of the care.  That would be very costly.

I pay $271 per month for $170 per day max, lifetime max of $310K.  I have a 3% inflation rate built in and a reset. The reset means that if I go into a nursing home and come out, the $310K max resets in case I have to go in again.  The policy also has a provision for $1700 per month for non-professional care, for example, if a neighbor or relative takes care of me in my home instead of a professional.


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## bogey21 (Jul 29, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> Back when I was about 45 I bought a LTC Policy.  Increasing premiums, policy limits and benefit reductions soured me on it.  I have the money so I opted to move into (see below) a CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community) where my monthly rent is significantly more than double what I would be paying for LTC Insurance.  It costs me about $2,000 a month.
> 
> I say "move into" which is not quite accurate.  I have my apartment there; it is already 100% furnished with my stuff; I eat there 4 or 5 times a week; I socialize there; all my mail goes there; but I live off campus in a duplex.  The advantages of this are that I don't have to look for a place in a pressure situation; I am guaranteed coverage for life, not just a number of years; etc.  All I have to do to move in is move my clothes which are not already there.
> 
> Yes, it is more costly, significantly more than double the cost of a Premium LTC Policy, but it gives me comfort that my kids won't have a problem finding me a place and convincing me that it is time to go and that the place they have chosen is suitable for me.



Just as the rules, options and premiums for LTC policies continue to "evolve" I have seen changes with the CCRC option I described above.  For example when I bought in I paid a non-refundable front end fee of about $70,000.  Note that about 50% of the front end fee and my monthly fees are tax deductible as "prepaid medical expenses" which takes some of the sting out of it.

Today most of the CCRCs require between $400,000 - $700,000 up front with the contractual obligation to refund between 70% and 90% to your heirs when you die depending on the amount of your initial payment.  Your heirs only get the money after the CCRC has found someone else to take over your unit.  This pretty much eliminates the CCRC option for those who don't have a lot of cash and/or have no desire to leave an estate.

George

PS Note that notwithstanding the change in direction of my CCRC regarding new Residents my contract, and the contracts of others who signed up under the old non-refundable plan will continue to stay in force as long as we live.


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