# Masks and male behavior



## "Roger" (May 13, 2020)

It appears that not wearing a mask is somewhat a macho thing. The tally on some recent visits to stores ...

A building supply center and a farm retail store (with lots of tools and other things mostly of interest to males)... In both of those, with most of the shoppers men, I would say about 20% of the customers were wearing masks. (That has changed with the building supply center which now requires masks.)

My wife's visit to a large greenhouse complex with mostly women picking out plants... About 80% to 90% wearing masks.

My experience this morning at a supermarket... About 80% wearing masks. Of those not wearing masks, about 80% men. Of the women not wearing masks. Not one alone. All of them were with a man who was not wearing a mask. This tallies with another supermarket which I more regularly go to during senior hours.

Talking to a neighbor who was sitting in an enormous pick up at the time. He read where masks did not give you protection. (I personally think it gives you some.) When my wife pointed out that the point of masks was to protect others, he made a sound which basically meant, what's that to me.


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## Brett (May 13, 2020)

"Roger" said:


> It appears that not wearing a mask is somewhat a macho thing. The tally on some recent visits to stores ...
> 
> A building supply center and a farm retail store (with lots of tools and other things mostly of interest to males)... In both of those, with most of the shoppers men, I would say about 20% of the customers were wearing masks. (That has changed with the building supply center which now requires masks.)
> 
> ...




OK
people shopping at greenhouse nurseries and building supply centers are from different demographics


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## Old Hickory (May 13, 2020)

Reminds me of the SNL skit:  Quien es mas Macho?


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## geekette (May 13, 2020)

There will always be a pocket of people that don't care about others.   I would also make the leap that not everyone understands the need for masks right now.   Of those that do, and understand that it's about protecting others, the ones still unmasked are vulgar jerks.  I have never noticed a shortage of those.   

that said, my observations today from quick grocery run are same as yours.  Most everyone in a mask, those that weren't, were male.  

That's what's weird to me about anyone wanting to eat in a restaurant now.  Nobody eats or drinks with a mask on.  Is it more comfortable because you aren't actually passing by people like would happen in a store?   I personally just can't do it yet.  Partially because anyone at that table with me, has not been hunkered down with me.  I kind of feel bad, thinking, "ew, I don't know where you've been!  do not unmask near me!"

This is all still too surreal to me.   I don't like thinking about everyone else being a threat to me.  But I like even less the ones that boldly go around being threats to everyone.


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## Panina (May 13, 2020)

My experience has been different.  The few that wore masks when I went to Home Depot were men.


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## davidvel (May 13, 2020)

geekette said:


> There will always be a pocket of people that don't care about others.   I would also make the leap that not everyone understands the need for masks right now.   Of those that do, and understand that it's about protecting others, the ones still unmasked are vulgar jerks.  I have never noticed a shortage of those.
> 
> that said, my observations today from quick grocery run are same as yours.  Most everyone in a mask, those that weren't, were male.
> 
> ...


People were threats to you, to varying degrees, every day everywhere you went around your town or travels. COVID-19 is not the first threat you'll face from others, and won't be the last.


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## geist1223 (May 13, 2020)

Our experince has been different. It is either 50/50 for both sexes or more women not wearing masks.


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## geekette (May 13, 2020)

davidvel said:


> People were threats to you, to varying degrees, every day everywhere you went around your town or travels. COVID-19 is not the first threat you'll face from others, and won't be the last.


Those threats weren't super contagious.


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## clifffaith (May 13, 2020)

The idiot who had a fit and refused to wear a mask in our local Trader Joe's was a 50ish woman.


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## chellej (May 13, 2020)

DD is working on her Masters in Microbiology and the current course is naturally focused on all things covid.  What is current;y being discussed is the use of masks and that they are for the protection of others but there is some evidence to suggest that it is also causing reinfections in people who have had the virus.   

The other major point at the moment is that staying in home is detrimental along with sanitizing everything in site because of these 2 actions actually weaken people's immune systems.  She encouraged me to spend plenty of time outside ( socially distancing of course) without a mask just to allow my immune system to be at its peak...also take emergenC or other immunity booster.


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## Bailey#1 (May 13, 2020)

My observation is about 80-90% of women where masks and about 60-70% of men where masks. We live in Vermont if that makes a difference.


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## Monykalyn (May 13, 2020)

Wearing a face mask helps protect me against Covid-19, but not against racism
					

The Covid-19 pandemic is putting me in a difficult position as a physician and as a Black man. The order to wear a face mask in public has made it worse.




					www.statnews.com
				



Interesting from a different perspective.  A reminder we are NOT all on the same boat nor are we even facing the same storm.


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## dmbrand (May 13, 2020)

I don’t see as many mask users in the mom and pop stores I frequent; I bring one along in case it is required, and so does my husband.  There are few serious covid cases here.  In fact, some hospitals are furloughing workers, and the advertisements on television are encouraging people to come in if they are having other serious ailments. As a whole, though, most everyone keeps their distance.


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## plpgma (May 13, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> Wearing a face mask helps protect me against Covid-19, but not against racism
> 
> 
> The Covid-19 pandemic is putting me in a difficult position as a physician and as a Black man. The order to wear a face mask in public has made it worse.
> ...


It saddens me greatly to read this article -- and I think Monykalyn's comment is spot on.  I so hope that weathering this storm as one American people helps heal and close those wounds that are causing this young man to say and feel the things he writes in his article.  Sadly, however, I know that there will always be some who will never move beyond their own predjudices regardless of how much we heal as a nation.


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2020)

This is a really depressing story about a man who wore a KKK mask to a store. If he was trying to make a statement, he accomplished that. Really terrible that people would go out this way. 









						Man who wore KKK-style hood to California grocery store won't be charged
					

The man said he wore the mask was because of coronavirus restrictions and did not intend it to be a racial statement, officials said.




					www.nbcnews.com


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## Cornell (May 13, 2020)

geekette said:


> There will always be a pocket of people that don't care about others.   I would also make the leap that not everyone understands the need for masks right now.   Of those that do, and understand that it's about protecting others, the ones still unmasked are vulgar jerks.  I have never noticed a shortage of those.
> 
> that said, my observations today from quick grocery run are same as yours.  Most everyone in a mask, those that weren't, were male.
> 
> ...


Vulgar jerks?  Really?  So this is what mask-wearers think of those who don't wear masks. Good to know.


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## geekette (May 13, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Vulgar jerks?  Really?  So this is what mask-wearers think of those who don't wear masks. Good to know.


Yes, in my opinion.  I don't know what others think.  

You wear a mask to protect me, I wear a mask to protect you.   No mask on you?  You clearly don't care about others.   What message do you think it sends?


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## Cornell (May 13, 2020)

geekette said:


> Yes, in my opinion.  I don't know what others think.
> 
> You wear a mask to protect me, I wear a mask to protect you.   No mask on you?  You clearly don't care about others.   What message do you think it sends?


Obviously to you it sends a message of "vulgar jerks" who don't care about other people.  

For me it sends a message of "They don't want to wear a mask".


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2020)

Not wearing a mask could mean many things. All we know for sure are the facts...they are not wearing a mask.


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## davidvel (May 13, 2020)

geekette said:


> Those threats weren't super contagious.


Contagious or not, they kill you if you don't lock yourselves indoors. At much higher rates than COVID-19 ever would if there was no lockdowns, every year, indefinitely.  But we always accepted that such risks existed and there was no way to continue a society without exposing us all to those risks, while being reasonable to mitigate those risks.  That mindset has changed with COVID19.


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## clifffaith (May 13, 2020)

20 minutes of nonsense spewed by this woman.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 13, 2020)

"Roger" said:


> It appears that not wearing a mask is somewhat a macho thing. The tally on some recent visits to stores ...
> 
> A building supply center and a farm retail store (with lots of tools and other things mostly of interest to males)... In both of those, with most of the shoppers men, I would say about 20% of the customers were wearing ....
> 
> My experience this morning at a supermarket... About 80% wearing masks. Of those not wearing masks, about 80% men.  ......



Darwin award candidates .


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## dioxide45 (May 13, 2020)

It may also seem that much of this is also regional. Went to Winn Dixie here in Florida today and perhaps only about 25% are wearing masks. It even seems to vary based on the store. In Target it looked to be about 50% where Aldi it was a little higher. Costco was 100% the other day because if you didn't have one, they gave you one.


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## geekette (May 13, 2020)

davidvel said:


> Contagious or not, they kill you if you don't lock yourselves indoors. At much higher rates than COVID-19 ever would if there was no lockdowns, every year, indefinitely.  But we always accepted that such risks existed and there was no way to continue a society without exposing us all to those risks, while being reasonable to mitigate those risks.  That mindset has changed with COVID19.


Apparently those epidemics never made it into my county and grocery store and workplace and started killing people I know.   I have never before heard scientists around the world sound the alarm on social distancing.   I have never before seen country after country tell their citizens to stay indoors.  I have never before seen such a fast death count.   So, what is it about those other epidemics that is so similar to this one?   Did I just miss that coverage?


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## klpca (May 13, 2020)

I say this about no one here (because I don't actually know you) but about others that I do know. This situation has really shown some people's true colors. 

I have seen managers (single, no kids) show absolutely no mercy to their employees who are trying to work from home with preschoolers. The exact words spoken "Not my problem. They chose to have kids. Figure it out". Nice. They are not cut out for management if you ask me. I have friends who refuse to wear masks - "virtue signalling" whatever that means to them, as well as people who are absolutely loosing-their-bunnies when people take a walk without a mask but, maintain social distance. What do they think that they will get from across the street, 30+ feet away from the other folks? When you are on private property you are just going to have to play by the property owners rules. If you don't want to wear a mask in the store, then you need to use instacart or have a friend shop for you. There are folks who are just so black and white on this issue, but my goodness how about applying some common sense? Sometimes I don't recognize some of the citizens of our country. Luckily I have middle-of-the-road friends who have restored my faith in humanity.

To me the last two+ months have been like having training wheels on our bikes and now it is time to take them off. Some will just ride confidently without them, others will wobble. Apparently some will park their bike in the garage. But like it or not, at some point the training wheels are coming off. I hope that going forward, people can try to understand where others are coming from and refrain from name calling, blaming, or being rude. It just makes a bad situation worse.


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## BJRSanDiego (May 13, 2020)

I live in a suburb north of San Diego.  When I went to the grocery store, local deli, doctor and Home Despot  this past week, everyone had some sort of face mask on.  Some were kerchiefs, some were surgical masks, some were N95 respirators.  A few people left their nose uncovered.  But I didn't see anyone without some sort of face covering.  Most if not all stores are requiring face masks.  I see a lot of people trying to abide by and follow the local laws.  But I think that all of us are feeling Covid confinement fatigue.


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2020)

I have been living in Placer County, a suburban/rural part of California, for the past 2 months. When I go out, I see about 50% of people with masks. I do not notice a difference between men and women wearing masks. In my local grocery store, none of the employees are wearing masks. That has been surprising to me. I do not know what to think about it.


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## Gypsy65 (May 13, 2020)

I personally don’t wear a mask unless there is a requirement to do so for me to enter a certain business but I do respect those in fear who do by staying more than the special number  of 6’ away
Really? Who came up with that number? Crap moves further than 6’

We all have a right to do what we choose. Why should I wear a mask to make those who do feel better?
How about those who do wear one stop  for those of us who don’t?
Why is it right for one belief system but not another?

I believe we have a real covid issue but I do not believe the deaths counted as covid are real numbers
I travel for work and have been from Long Island to Seattle and everywhere in between for the past year.
Long before covid, and with all the door knob lickers I come in contact with I would surely think I would be dead as well as all of NYC

_[Profanity deleted by request.]_


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## davidvel (May 13, 2020)

geekette said:


> Apparently those epidemics never made it into my county and grocery store and workplace and started killing people I know.   I have never before heard scientists around the world sound the alarm on social distancing.   I have never before seen country after country tell their citizens to stay indoors.  I have never before seen such a fast death count.   So, what is it about those other epidemics that is so similar to this one?   Did I just miss that coverage?


I said nothing about contagiousness, or epidemics. I was responding to your comment "But I like even less the ones that boldly go around being threats to everyone," when I said we face threats everyday when we leave our homes. 

As to the threats I was talking about, medical mistakes in hospitals, second hand smoke, influenza and other infectious diseases, firearms, auto collisions and other accidents cause hundreds of thousands of deaths every year, year after year.  Yet we would go out, travel, eat at restaurants, go to work, mingle, party, exercise, and do everything we enjoy. That was my point.


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## bluehende (May 14, 2020)

I will have to hand in my man card.  I wear a mask with rainbows and unicorns.  A present from my 6 yr old grand daughter.

PS I am not cowering behind my mask.  And in fact have not seen anyone afraid, just people going about their business being decent human beings.  Mostly smiles (yes you can tell).  The first person that comes over and coughs in my face (yes a neighbor reported this happening to them) will find the scared little unicorns bite.


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## geekette (May 14, 2020)

davidvel said:


> I said nothing about contagiousness, or epidemics. I was responding to your comment "But I like even less the ones that boldly go around being threats to everyone," when I said we face threats everyday when we leave our homes.
> 
> As to the threats I was talking about, medical mistakes in hospitals, second hand smoke, influenza and other infectious diseases, firearms, auto collisions and other accidents cause hundreds of thousands of deaths every year, year after year.  Yet we would go out, travel, eat at restaurants, go to work, mingle, party, exercise, and do everything we enjoy. That was my point.


Oh, yeah.  One of those "life is risky" posts.  Thanks.  Really adds to the conversation about masks with regard to coronavirus.


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## davidvel (May 14, 2020)

geekette said:


> Oh, yeah.  One of those "life is risky" posts.  Thanks.  Really adds to the conversation about masks with regard to coronavirus.


Yeah, I was wondering why you posted about threats/risks. COVID19  is a "special" one, and the resulting deaths are oh so different.


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## SueDonJ (May 14, 2020)

davidvel said:


> Yeah, I was wondering why you posted about threats/risks. COVID19  is a "special" one, and the resulting deaths are oh so different.



Oh dear God, can we please not go off on seventy-thirteen tangents?

When you have a headcold do you go merrily on your way and sneeze in society's face?

When you have a stomach bug do you go merrily on your way and vomit in society's face?

No. No you don't, one reason being because you don't feel good so you stay home, the other reason being because you use Kleenex and Pepto Bismol and Tylenol Cold and whatever other thing is available to mitigate your symptoms to make yourself feel better. But hopefully another is because you know, because it's well understood, that society frowns on infected people who knowingly spread virus germs.

People can carry and spread COVID-19 asymptomatically and there is as yet no cure or OTC products that might mitigate that risk. If you don't know if you're a carrier and you're out and about in society, why wouldn't you want to reduce the risk of possibly spreading a DEADLY virus to those nearby? If you know that practically every legitimate scientific expert suggests that wearing a mask is better than not wearing one, that wearing a mask may protect others in the event you are an asymptomatic carrier, and doing so does absolutely nothing to put your civil rights at risk, WTF wouldn't you do it?!?!

I will never understand some people. Never.


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## CO skier (May 14, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> People can carry and spread COVID-19 asymptomatically and there is as yet no cure or OTC products that might mitigate that risk.


Influenza and other viral diseases may be spread asymtomatically.  The influenza virus mutates rapidly enough that the annual vaccine is not always effective and might only reduce the severity of symptoms.  Very few people wore masks during the annual flu season, although masks might have reduced the transmission rate.  The maskless were not social pariahs.  Will wearing masks be an everyday way of life (for years) until there is a Covid-19 vaccine?  If not, then why now and not then?  There is no certainty a Covid-19 vaccine will be developed.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Influenza and other viral diseases may be spread asymtomatically.  The influenza virus mutates rapidly enough that the annual vaccine is not always effective and might only reduce the severity of symptoms.  Very few people wore masks during the annual flu season, although masks might have reduced the transmission rate.  The maskless were not social pariahs.  Will wearing masks be an everyday way of life (for years) until there is a Covid-19 vaccine?  If not, then why now and not then?  There is no certainty a Covid-19 vaccine will be developed.



The major difference is that we have annual flu shots which reduce the risk of transmission and spread. We unfortunately don't have that with Covid.

There was a time when smoking indoors was considered socially acceptable. Now we know the health risks of secondary smoke. Social norms change based on new health information.


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## MrockStar (May 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Influenza and other viral diseases may be spread asymtomatically.  The influenza virus mutates rapidly enough that the annual vaccine is not always effective and might only reduce the severity of symptoms.  Very few people wore masks during the annual flu season, although masks might have reduced the transmission rate.  The maskless were not social pariahs.  Will wearing masks be an everyday way of life (for years) until there is a Covid-19 vaccine?  If not, then why now and not then?  There is no certainty a Covid-19 vaccine will be developed.


Could be, see Asian countries as an example for face mask usage adoption.


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## CO skier (May 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The major difference is that we have annual flu shots which reduce the risk of transmission and spread. We don't have that with Covid.
> 
> There was a time when smoking indoors was considered socially acceptable. Now we know the health risks of secondary smoke. Social norms change based on new health information.


So you believe wearing masks outside of home will be a way of life until a vaccine is developed?

Unlike smoking, breathing cannot be limited to only designated outdoor areas.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> So you believe wearing masks outside of home will be a way of life until a vaccine is developed?
> 
> Unlike smoking, breathing cannot be limited to only designated outdoor areas.




We'll see what the future holds. Who would have predicted that there was a pandemic this year? It will be what it will be so no use stressing about it.

Like smoking, masks can be required in designated (indoor) spaces to protect yourself and others. Similar to smoking, if you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to go there. No one is requiring masks in outdoor spaces unless there is a crowd either.


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## Gypsy65 (May 14, 2020)

Some States are opening up and not mandating any masks while in their  stores or restaurants 
What’s up with that? 
I need a mask on this side of the border line and am looked at like a rebel if I don’t wear one but 50’ from that point and I’m in a different State with no rules and I’m perfectly fine not wearing a mask

Follow the money 
People can easily be controlled by fear. That’s how sex trafficking works
And the media makes $$ by selling a story

If this was really a Global problem the it would really be a Global problem 

Truckers should be dropping off like flies
Trucking companies should be going under on a Dailey basis 
Cashiers. McDonald’s workers. Walmart workers etc all should be ill like no other with all the traffic they see each day

Sure. Some are but is it waaaay more than any other year?
Truckers. Cashiers. McDonald’s. Walmart  are all evidently necessary to keep things going

If this was really that bad. All businesses should be locked down
No one needs Twinkie products during a Global crisis


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

I have not noticed any difference (without counting exact numbers) between genders and masks in my area. I have noticed that older people seem to wear masks at a higher rate. 

I am in both camps on masks. To the contention that people stay home when they do not feel good, I 100% disagree. Some obviously do. Working for 40 years, I saw many many people who would come to work sick, go to church sick, etc. People do not always or even close to always stay home when they are sick. I do not believe even people with covid who are supposed to stay home do, without enforcement. No way. 

I am of the opinion we will (almost) all be exposed before this is over. I guess it depends on early vaccine, or more normal timeframe (if ever). If it spreads as easy as presumed.  An early vaccine would mean attempts to slow it down would be more useful than the other case. The only question is sooner or later, based on our attempts to slow it down. There is value in slowing it down for the reasons that have always been stated such as not overwhelming hospitals, but I don't think we have a good chance of avoiding being exposed over the long haul. Just my opinion reading the science and other papers (though I do think tech has a fair chance of saving us). Based on that, it's easy for me to be in the life is a risk crowd as in the end, I will be exposed despite my best efforts. And really, life is a risk and there are endless very common threats that are far more likely to kill me. Nationwide, current mobility rates are almost half of Feb. That's not a huge difference in the sense that many many people are still out there in public. It is clear to me that our direction is going to be opening as a nation. There are almost zero states not on that path. Some more "aggressive" than others, but we are all seemingly headed that way. 

However, I do wear a mask every time in public. I do this for the other reasons cited by SueDonJ. I was one of those who would not go into the office (when I wasn't working at home) if I was sick. I felt it was my responsibility to not infect others with whatever I had. I find that wearing a mask is no particular burden on me, it doesn't hurt me in any way, a little annoying but that's it. It's such a minor tiny little thing that it's nothing I would rebel or fight or argue about. It's about equivalent for me of the 'ol no shirts no shoes no service signs. Not a big deal. Therefore, out of concern for others, I wear a mask. Just like out of concern for others, I wear a shirt.


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## Gypsy65 (May 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We'll see what the future holds. Who would have predicted that there was a pandemic this year? It will be what it will be so no use stressing about it.
> 
> Like smoking, masks can be required in designated (indoor) spaces to protect yourself and others. Similar to smoking, if you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to go there. No one is requiring masks in outdoor spaces unless there is a crowd either.



But people are forcing their beliefs on others
If I go to a business that’s not requiring a mask it’s the other people there who look at the unmasked man like he’s a problem

It’s in the comments in this very thread


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## CO skier (May 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Like smoking, masks can be required in designated (indoor) spaces to protect yourself and others.


It is very difficult to eat while wearing a mask.  Someone is much more likely to become infected sitting near a Covid-19 carrier at another table in a restaurant for 30-60 minutes than walking past a carrier in Home Depot or the grocery store.  So will masks be required in restaurants, or not?  There was a study posted in one of these threads about someone who infected some of his family at his table and others at two other tables in a restaurant due to the particular ventilation pattern in the restaurant.  6-foot social distancing would not have made any difference.


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## geekette (May 14, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> But people are forcing their beliefs on others
> If I go to a business that’s not requiring a mask it’s the other people there who look at the unmasked man like he’s a problem


What force of beliefs are you referring to?  Being looked at?  

Science isn't about belief.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> But people are forcing their beliefs on others
> If I go to a business that’s not requiring a mask it’s the other people there who look at the unmasked man like he’s a problem
> 
> It’s in the comments in this very thread



Wearing a mask says, "I am courteous and I don't wish to spread germs." Similarly do you want people breathing their germs on you?

Social norms are everywhere: A plane may not require one to shower and wear deodorant but people are offended when someone with poor hygiene sits next to them. Perhaps you have experienced this situation?  Is expecting passengers to shower and use deodorant pushing a belief on others? or just common courtesy and social norm? Besides, although unpleasant, your seatmate not showering won't make you ill. Covid will.


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## MrockStar (May 14, 2020)

The problem with common sense is its not very common.


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## turkel (May 14, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I have been living in Placer County, a suburban/rural part of California, for the past 2 months. When I go out, I see about 50% of people with masks. I do not notice a difference between men and women wearing masks. In my local grocery store, none of the employees are wearing masks. That has been surprising to me. I do not know what to think about it.


I would imagine it has to do with the very low incidence of Covid in your community.


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## Old Hickory (May 14, 2020)

geekette said:


> Science isn't about belief.



Seriously?  For many, science has become a religion.


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## Old Hickory (May 14, 2020)

MrockStar said:


> The problem with common sense is its not very common.



Here is my quote: There is no such thing as common sense. Otherwise, it would be common.


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## TravelTime (May 14, 2020)

This is a great article about the problems happening with scientists in the age of covid. The bottom line is that not all scientists agree but many are attacking each other when their views are different. It seems like a lot of “science” is coming down to what you want to believe, even among scientists.









						Scientists who express different views on Covid-19 should be heard, not demonized
					

Scientific consensus is important, but it isn't uncommon when some of the most important voices turn out to be those of independent thinkers whose views were initially doubted.




					www.statnews.com


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

klpca said:


> There are folks who are just so black and white on this issue, but my goodness how about applying some common sense? Sometimes I don't recognize some of the citizens of our country. Luckily I have middle-of-the-road friends who have restored my faith in humanity.


  LOL common sense? I agree with you totally but the the media fans the flames of fear so rationale thinking is not happening.


klpca said:


> To me the last two+ months have been like having training wheels on our bikes and now it is time to take them off. Some will just ride confidently without them, others will wobble. Apparently some will park their bike in the garage. But like it or not, at some point the training wheels are coming off. I hope that going forward, people can try to understand where others are coming from and refrain from name calling, blaming, or being rude. It just makes a bad situation worse.


 


bluehende said:


> The first person that comes over and coughs in my face


This is just plain rude no matter now or before.

I've also got questions on this "most are asymptomatic carrier" syndrome-either we are all so stinking contagious we should have ALL had it prior to lockdown and mask wearing therefore way more widespread which means it is NOT as "deadly" OR it is not as bad/contagious as current thought and NOT as easily transmissable and quite deadly, in which case they need much MORE and BETTER studies on which masks are truly effective for the general public.  Also-we don't stay "asymptomatic carriers' for months-the way some are acting. If we've truly been in lockdown-even with some going out-wouldn't we continue to see continued ever rising numbers? Instead everything is declining...And that is after the forced distancing but way way way after the "face coverings" thing started. I get that with re-opening more chances so masks more helpful.



Gypsy65 said:


> Some States are opening up and not mandating any masks while in their stores or restaurants
> What’s up with that?
> I need a mask on this side of the border line and am looked at like a rebel if I don’t wear one but 50’ from that point and I’m in a different State with no rules and I’m perfectly fine not wearing a mask


I think this is a bigger issue than realized, and making the masking debate rather contentious. Here in MO-my part of the state in SW-no masks required when out unless in close quarters (hair salons for example), no requirement for grocery workers, restaurant workers etc. In AR-masks required for restaurant workers, rec for general public








						Facing Your Face Mask Duties – A List of Statewide Orders
					

Governors and public health officials across the country implemented stringent mitigation measures to help contain the spread of COVID-19. As COVID-19 case rates fluctuate, face coverings are not uncommon as a preventative measure. Numerous jurisdictions have encouraged—or mandated—citizens to...




					www.littler.com
				



helpful website - showing the wide variances.

I've no problem wearing a mask where may be closer quarters and/or required. I do have an issue with jail time/fines IF the business or community doesn't hand out FREELY and WIDELY available masks if they are going to be hard**** on enforcing it.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

Everyone wants the economy to open and recover safely. Wearing a mask and social spacing are small concessions to lower the risk of another spike and shutdown of the economy. What's the alternative? Stay at home indefinitely?


----------



## geekette (May 14, 2020)

.....Instead everything is declining... 

this is not so


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This is a great article about the problems happening with scientists in the age of covid. The bottom line is that not all scientists agree but many are attacking each other when their views are different. It seems like a lot of “science” is coming down to what you want to believe, even among scientists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's another one for you, not my favorite publication but still, a very good article even I have to admit.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...avirus-advice-political?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1


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## klpca (May 14, 2020)

Not everyone is hooked up by IV to "the media". That is a personal choice made by all sides, friends. Me, no TV news ever (no cable), I read one local paper. I subscribe to one national publication but only read articles that interest me. I am not uninformed. I can easily access source data - in the case of Covid I use this source: https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/cont...mmunity_epidemiology/dc/2019-nCoV/status.html

I feel competent enough to read and digest information without anyone needing to interpret it for me. I am sure that the majority of citizens can do the same. The others who are glued to their TVs, youtube videos, Facebook "news" - well I can spot them a mile away because the talking points - again, all sides, friends - are all the same. All of the sudden people from all over my life are repeating the same information and talking points so I know that they heard it somewhere.  I am hopeful that the common sense folks are the silent majority. 

I admire those to try to supply factual information to folks who don't want to hear it, but I find it to be an absolute waste of time. I was raised in a family of arguers and dissenters. I have lived an entire lifetime of listening to people who think that medical doctors don't know anything and that everything can be treated by a chiropractor. That a raw food diet can cure my rheumatoid arthritis and that shade vegetables will cause my demise. That saccharine is a healthy alternative to sugar. My common sense told me that those beliefs are wrong, and experience has told me that I am right. You can see why I need to pass on these discussions. I broke my promise to myself to stay out of these discussions because I hate to perpetuate the arguments. So I will bow out now and leave it to the rest of you who find this interesting and invigorating.


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## bnoble (May 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Very few people wore masks during the annual flu season, although masks might have reduced the transmission rate.


The difference is threefold. 1: the flu vaccine does provide some coverage, even if it is not perfect, 2: C19 has a higher R0 than infuenza, and 3: C19 has a higher case fatality rate than influenza.

In other words: more people are susceptible to C19, it spreads faster, and it kills more effectively than does the flu. There are also several poorly understood and potentially serious long-term complications that can happen for those who do "recover."

Second, such whataboutism doesn't really matter. The most credible science I've seen suggests that wearing masks is a way to protect ourselves and (more importantly IMO) those around us from a virus that is evidently nasty.



Gypsy65 said:


> But people are forcing their beliefs on others


I'm not forcing my beliefs on you--I don't own a store, so I can't decide whether or not you should wear a mask in it. But I am judging you if you are in there without one on. The message I see when I see someone without a mask is either that they don't understand the situation, or they don't care that they might be an asymptomatic carrier.



Monykalyn said:


> I do have an issue with jail time/fines IF the business or community doesn't hand out FREELY and WIDELY available masks if they are going to be hard**** on enforcing it.


There's a third option for businesses: denying entry. The business is a private entity, and wearing a mask (or not) is not a protected class for the purposes of civil rights law as far as I know. For public accomodations (like public transit) I agree that having disposable masks available in the face of a requirement is a reasonable step that I hope most agencies are taking.


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## TravelTime (May 14, 2020)

Maybe this is why women are more likely to wear masks.


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## Ken555 (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> For public accomodations (like public transit) I agree that having disposable masks available in the face of a requirement is a reasonable step that I hope most agencies are taking.



In Singapore, here's an example of private enterprise providing free one-time use masks and selling them at a reasonable price in vending machines. 









						Razer will use face mask vending machines to distribute millions of face masks in Singapore
					

Razer, based in Singapore, is helping the government fight COVID-19.




					www.theverge.com


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## CO skier (May 14, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Maybe this is why women are more likely to wear masks.



The fashionable beachwear this summer is, apparently, the "tri-kini."

Sorry all, as a male I will not be wearing a "bi-kini" (swimsuit and face mask) and will stick with just the swim trunks for the pool and beach.


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> There's a third option for businesses: denying entry. The business is a private entity, and wearing a mask (or not) is not a protected class for the purposes of civil rights law as far as I know. For public accomodations (like public transit) I agree that having disposable masks available in the face of a requirement is a reasonable step that I hope most agencies are taking.



When I finally got a haircut yesterday (and yes I am a male), yes I really did, they had masks for me if I did not have one. And, they even were giving some out if you needed them for around town use. Why in the world would I not agree to their policy!? What harm would come to me? 

I think this is one of the best ways to "enforce" use. I see nothing political, or rights arguments in this. Just wear the mask. No big deal.


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## bnoble (May 14, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> In Singapore, here's an example of private enterprise providing free one-time use masks and selling them at a reasonable price in vending machines.



Also, if you are interested in reusable masks and/or helping out a good cause, an Ann Arbor clothing manufacturer has a mask design that the University of Michigan Hospital has a (non-medical) use for; UMHS would like 10,000 of them. You can buy some for yourself and they will donate some to the hospital, or you can just pay for some to donate directly. I bought some. A good fit (others were too small) and comfortable.






						Masks
					

Help Us Produce Masks - A Note From The Founders During these trying times, we have been working on producing non-medical reusable cloth masks and our latest prototype has been approved to donate to the University of Michigan hospital - they are requesting 10,000. Naturally, we would like to...




					stateandliberty.com
				






Steve Fatula said:


> I am a male [...] Just wear the mask. No big deal.


I am also male, and there are some reasons why some men don't want to---the "unwritten rules" that men are taught at a very early age and, perhaps surprisingly, enforce among each other. As part of my own addiciton recovery work, I started reading Mark Greene, who has written about this "man box culture." The short version: society has a pretty narrow definition of what it means to "be a man," and stepping outside that definition is often met with derision from the adults in our life when we are children, and the other men in our life when we are adults. That is a very powerful force that can "box" us into a role that is a caricature of our inner selves. In particular, appearing "feminine" (in this case, in the form of caring for others by wearing a mask) is often met with strong disapproval from a handful of other men with status, and we respond to it.

If you are interested in reading more about this idea, I highly recommend Mark's work. It has been an important part of my sobriety journey. http://remakingmanhood.com/


----------



## geekette (May 14, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Maybe this is why women are more likely to wear masks.


You caught me!  It's really all about the accessorizing...


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> I am also male, and there are some reasons why some men don't want to---the "unwritten rules" that men are taught at a very early age and, perhaps surprisingly, enforce among each other. As part of my own addiciton recovery work, I started reading Mark Greene, who has written about this "man box culture." The short version: society has a pretty narrow definition of what it means to "be a man," and stepping outside that definition is often met with derision from the adults in our life when we are children, and the other men in our life when we are adults. That is a very powerful force that can "box" us into a role that is a caricature of our inner selves. In particular, appearing "feminine" (in this case, in the form of caring for others) is often met with strong disapproval from a handful of other men with status, and we respond to it.



Believe me, I totally get this and understand what you are saying. I come from that culture, and mostly still am that culture. But, in life, we can't always get what we want. In the end though, you cannot box me into anything, if I allow you to, then I am the one who is weak. So, while I generally may conform to the unwritten rules, in this case, I choose otherwise I guess. The way I look at it, is, I have a wife who I have to consider, and she is in a super high risk group. If there is any minor benefit for me in wearing a mask (yes I know it's good for others), then I need to do that as I don't want her to die from it. She likely has a 10% chance of death, too high for me. That, and, despite the "rules", I don't consider caring for others to be feminine. I apologize to anyone offended by my old fashioned values, but caring for my family is in fact duty, not feminine.


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## bnoble (May 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Believe me, I totally get this and understand what you are saying. I come from that culture, and mostly still am that culture. But, in life, we can't always get what we want. In the end though, you cannot box me into anything, if I allow you to, then I am the one who is weak.


Steve, that's the best I can ask of myself: that I am mindful of how I let those pressures influence my decisions. Good for you!


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## geist1223 (May 14, 2020)

¿How soon before this thread is locked? Our society has lots of rules that as Members of the Society we agree to follow or face the alternative - driving after consuming a certain amount of alcohol, driving reasonable speeds, not taking other peoples' property, getting a fishing license before you go fishing, getting a hunting license before hunting, having to pass a back ground check before purchasing a firearm from Cabela's, not being allowed to possess a firearm if you are a convicted felon or convicted of domestic assault, etc, etc.

¿So why all the fight about wearing a Mask?


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## Panina (May 14, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> ¿How soon before this thread is locked? Our society has lots of rules that as Members of the Society we agree to follow or face the alternative - driving after consuming a certain amount of alcohol, driving reasonable speeds, not taking other peoples' property, getting a fishing license before you go fishing, getting a hunting license before hunting, having to pass a back ground check before purchasing a firearm from Cabela's, not being allowed to possess a firearm if you are a convicted felon or convicted of domestic assault, etc, etc.
> 
> ¿So why all the fight about wearing a Mask?


This is a discussion with differing opinions more like a debate versus a fight.


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## SteelerGal (May 14, 2020)

SoCal, OC region, and ppl are wearing masks.  Most stores require in our area.  Even restaurants indicate “ No mask, no service”.  Dh and older kids wear masks as well.


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> For public accomodations (like public transit) I agree that having disposable masks available in the face of a requirement is a reasonable step that I hope most agencies are taking.


Would probably end most of the "debate" right there. It would then be reasonable to refuse service if not followed. 

My DD and her friend went out for frozen yogurt (yes it is OK-businesses are allowed to open here), but both she and friend have masks.  Sitting outside to eat it constitutes a low risk as far as I can tell, while wearing the mask to order and stand in line inside.

It's in my nature to question the 'why' and 'science'-doesn't mean I'm not doing what is best or currently recommended


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## SueDonJ (May 14, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> ¿How soon before this thread is locked? Our society has lots of rules that as Members of the Society we agree to follow or face the alternative - driving after consuming a certain amount of alcohol, driving reasonable speeds, not taking other peoples' property, getting a fishing license before you go fishing, getting a hunting license before hunting, having to pass a back ground check before purchasing a firearm from Cabela's, not being allowed to possess a firearm if you are a convicted felon or convicted of domestic assault, etc, etc.
> 
> ¿So why all the fight about wearing a Mask?



For every one of those rules there are criminal laws on the books that mandate legally-imposed punishments when those laws are broken. There are very few places in the country, mostly in the hottest of hot spots, where it's criminal to not wear a mask. Those places have, though, considered imposing civil fines if there is strident and irrational protests by individuals to following the current - and *temporary* - restrictions that say you need to wear a mask if you're out in a situation where it's impossible to social distance six feet or more.

But the reason there needs to be any type of punishment, whether it's fines for civil infractions or 'mask shaming,' is because there simply isn't a cohesive and nationally-recognized plan in place to get the majority of the country open *safely.* Sure, there are isolated spots where masks are completely unnecessary. But there are far more spots where we are nowhere close to being ready to open despite the push from every direction to do it anyway, and that push is no doubt contributing to the mindset that makes people think that there's a need to scream FREEDOM!! CIVIL LIBERTIES!! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME DO IT!! if it's suggested that they wear a mask. What a ridiculous overreaction to a simple suggestion!

Wear a mask, don't wear a mask, do whatever you want. If you're lucky enough to live in an area that it's safe to go mask-less, chances are nobody is going to fine you or shame you anyway. But if you live where people are still newly contracting the virus and you're objecting to wearing a mask when you're out in public, you get no sympathy from me. I have no problem saying that while I'm home in a hot spot sewing mask after mask after mask after mask for the health care workers who STILL aren't able to obtain the professional PPE that they need, I am judging the people who aren't doing everything in their power to possibly shorten the length of time that these heroes are forced to work under ungodly circumstances.


----------



## Panina (May 14, 2020)

I keep going back to basics.

When we look back, if masks did more good then not and we didn’t use them, how many more lives were lost?  If they did nothing, nothing lost.  This assumes we are educated to use masks properly.

If half the population is not going to business establishments because masks are not used, can these businesses survive?  If those who really don’t want to wear a mask but did because it was a requirement and businesses had customers  from a normal population base and thrived and survived,  is wearing a mask such an inconvenience?  The businesses you love do not close down.

Over time, with lots of reading, my opinions have changed.  I wear a mask to protect others.  I hope others wear a mask to protect me.  If ultimately the mask is proven ineffective I am ok with the inconvenience of wearing one.  I do not like wearing them but do. 

I am frequenting  businesses that choose to use masks.  To me that means they are reaching out to the whole population.


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## SueDonJ (May 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> So you believe wearing masks outside of home will be a way of life until a vaccine is developed?
> 
> Unlike smoking, breathing cannot be limited to only designated outdoor areas.



Considering the very real possibility that a vaccine for COVID-19 may never come to fruition, like with AIDS, no I don't think mask-wearing will be with us *on the same basis as it is now* for the long term. But I do think that many of us will choose to wear masks from this point forward, similar to what we see people in other countries doing on a regular basis, and several of us TUGgers have been thinking about it since the early days of this pandemic. This exchange is from a thread back in March:



Quilter said:


> We will probably all have a wardrobe of masks after this.   Should be required on all flights.





SueDonJ said:


> I've been wondering if that's one of the ways this crisis will permanently alter us. It seems like we've been seeing photos for years from China of people wearing masks while going about their regular business, and it won't come as a surprise if the practice becomes much more prevalent all over the world.


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

Required on all flights is ok with me, but I likely won't be impressed as I am thinking it's unlikely to come with any penalties. I can imagine, kids, adults, who will "adjust" or remove it for various reasons. Sadly. And then there are some valid reasons to partially remove it, such as long international flights where dehydration is a real issue. 

Having never worn one prior to this, I am wondering how that is going to feel during our usual 3 months of 100+ degree humid degrees?


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Having never worn one prior to this, I am wondering how that is going to feel during our usual 3 months of 100+ degree humid degrees?



Sounds uncomfortable. Wouldn't you be inside with air conditioning during such weather? If you are outside and not around people, would you need to wear a mask? I don't wear a mask when I go walking and running because I socially distance.


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sounds uncomfortable. Wouldn't you be inside with air conditioning during such weather? If you are outside and not around people, would you need to wear a mask? I don't wear a mask when I go walking and running because I socially distance.



Absolutely *not* inside, hotter the better for me. The only time I was too hot was after 4 hours one day a few years back where it was not only quite humid, but 114 degrees. I started getting the initial signs of heat exhaustion while working outside in the yard. Heat index was around 140. Then I felt like a wimp. But I did go inside, had to admit defeat but blamed it on being older. 

If there were any virus particles on me or clothing, they won't last long out there!

I suppose it wouldn't generally be necessary to wear one, I do tend to agree that when distancing, it's not necessary while hiking / whatever. I suppose walking from car to doctor or whatever is not very long, just not sure how it will feel! Maybe my face will sweat, have never experienced that.


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> makes people think that there's a need to scream FREEDOM!! CIVIL LIBERTIES!! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME DO IT!!


I think the media tends to focus and therefore exaggerate the prevalence of these. Clickbait=$$ If you read beyond headlines (or look beyond the deliberately framed photo) you will find little fuss or even facts that relate to clickbait headline. But-the headline served its purpose and got you to look   . One of my biggest gripes through all of this is the reckless way media has portrayed everything. There is responsible journalism out there-but that isn't being debated/discussed in 30 second sound bites.


----------



## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Absolutely *not* inside, hotter the better for me


Greetings fellow lizard!!


----------



## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> Greetings fellow lizard!!



Thanks, I think. 

It's kind of ironic. In NW Ohio in college, if it was 30+, I wore shorts and T-shirt. Really. Then one day I got older. And I mean it happened fast. One day, I started getting cold below 70-75, depending on humidity. Now, I need a coat below 70-75, and, I (almost) never get too hot. It's my life story, usually extreme to most anything. But I love the outdoors and I love even more working in them.


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Thanks, I think.
> 
> It's kind of ironic. In NW Ohio in college, if it was 30+, I wore shorts and T-shirt. Really. Then one day I got older. And I mean it happened fast. One day, I started getting cold below 70-75, depending on humidity. Now, I need a coat below 70-75, and, I (almost) never get too hot. It's my life story, usually extreme to most anything. But I love the outdoors and I love even more working in them.


I grew up in Minot North Dakota until I was 13, then in Michigan until 16. Lots of time spent with cousins on dairy farm in Wisconsin. I am so done with the cold. Not many people enjoy hotter weather


----------



## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> I grew up in Minot North Dakota until I was 13, then in Michigan until 16. Lots of time spent with cousins on dairy farm in Wisconsin. I am so done with the cold. Not many people enjoy hotter weather



That has always confused me, if you don't like hotter weather, move north! My sister in Ohio is always saying she would never ever move south as it's too hot. I agree with her, for her. N Dakota would be another level of cold (obviously). Had a second cousin live there for a few years, heard the stories!

But a mask would be ok up there as at least it might warm you up a little in winter. If that is even possible. 

I actually know a fair number of people who enjoy hotter weather in summer. But, I am sure as a percentage, not too many.


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## SueDonJ (May 14, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> I think the media tends to focus and therefore exaggerate the prevalence of these. Clickbait=$$ If you read beyond headlines (or look beyond the deliberately framed photo) you will find little fuss or even facts that relate to clickbait headline. But-the headline served its purpose and got you to look   . One of my biggest gripes through all of this is the reckless way media has portrayed everything. There is responsible journalism out there-but that isn't being debated/discussed in 30 second sound bites.



Isn't this just a cute roundabout way of saying that you think I'm letting "the media" tell me what to think? Of course I'm reacting to video that I'm seeing and audio that I'm hearing! That doesn't mean that I'm behaving like one of the sheep who allow the talking heads to tell me what that video and audio should make me think, and I'm willing to give you the same benefit of the doubt that you're not being falsely led by anyone else's agenda.

But I'm also seeing, listening and responding to the things that family and friends are saying directly to me as well as to the things that family and friends are posting to social media (including here on TUG.) Seriously, I have yet to see an excuse for not wearing masks *in locations where it is strongly suggested that they be worn because new virus contractions are still happening* that isn't based in some way on the perceived loss of some phantom civil liberty that I have yet to discern. I just keep going back (without a talking head telling me that I should) to the question, what is the problem with wearing a mask if there's a chance that it will help us sooner rather than later to get to whatever our new normal will be? Where is the harm?!


----------



## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Isn't this just a cute roundabout way of saying that you think I'm letting "the media" tell me what to think? Of course I'm reacting to video that I'm seeing and audio that I'm hearing! That doesn't mean that I'm behaving like one of the sheep who allow the talking heads to tell me what that video and audio should make me think, and I'm willing to give you the same benefit of the doubt that you're not being falsely led by anyone else's agenda.
> 
> But I'm also seeing, listening and responding to the things that family and friends are saying directly to me as well as to the things that family and friends are posting to social media (including here on TUG.) Seriously, I have yet to see an excuse for not wearing masks *in locations where it is strongly suggested that they be worn because new virus contractions are still happening* that isn't based in some way on the perceived loss of some phantom civil liberty that I have yet to discern. I just keep going back (without a talking head telling me that I should) to the question, what is the problem with wearing a mask if there's a chance that it will help us sooner rather than later to get to whatever our new normal will be? Where is the harm?!



I don't think it means you are being singled out for being a mindless sheep, to be fair, there's clearly some of those on TUG. I can name names (but obviously won't) of those who *only* talk about politics on TUG with vague references and endless opinion posts (don't think they even own a timeshare). There is a lot of clickbait, I consider that a fact though it's opinion to those who do not. I can not only give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a mindless sheep, as I am sure that's the case quite honestly from reading your posts, I like many of them! But that doesn't mean I couldn't also think very very bad things about modern media, as I do! I think both are possible. For me, when I get my somewhat daily dose of news from various online media outlets, I would say 90%+ are clickbait, or, extremist opinion more than factual. I actually very much appreciate independent thinkers who don't only recite head talking points and narratives. 

But I totally agree, I don't know of any good argument either. And you have to understand I would normally be a live free or die kinda guy. So, it doesn't go with what some of the heads are saying. Those who cite freedom, where exactly are you guaranteed you can do whatever you wish, what document says that?


----------



## sue1947 (May 14, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Isn't this just a cute roundabout way of saying that you think I'm letting "the media" tell me what to think? Of course I'm reacting to video that I'm seeing and audio that I'm hearing! That doesn't mean that I'm behaving like one of the sheep who allow the talking heads to tell me what that video and audio should make me think, and I'm willing to give you the same benefit of the doubt that you're not being falsely led by anyone else's agenda.
> 
> But I'm also seeing, listening and responding to the things that family and friends are saying directly to me as well as to the things that family and friends are posting to social media (including here on TUG.) Seriously, I have yet to see an excuse for not wearing masks *in locations where it is strongly suggested that they be worn because new virus contractions are still happening* that isn't based in some way on the perceived loss of some phantom civil liberty that I have yet to discern. I just keep going back (without a talking head telling me that I should) to the question, what is the problem with wearing a mask if there's a chance that it will help us sooner rather than later to get to whatever our new normal will be? Where is the harm?!


I agree.  The bottom line is that there is a lot we don't know, but we do know this is very infectious.  If I can limit the spread by wearing a mask and keeping my distance, then that's a pretty small thing to ask.    For me, it's being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.  I'll always try for the former.  
Sue


----------



## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Isn't this just a cute roundabout way of saying that you think I'm letting "the media" tell me what to think?


no not at all-I wasn't clear and I am sorry. Meant "you" in general sense   Too many tend to be reactionary. And It does come to  responsible reporting-no media coverage of those idiots but more on responsible mask wearing-and it wouldn't be as big of an issue, especially if they were honest and said there wasn't a lot of science yet for this, but asking everyone to be  careful for you and others.  Unfortunately Dr Fauci has been politicized too much. The man has credibility.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Wearing a mask says, "I am courteous and I don't wish to spread germs." Similarly do you want people breathing their germs on you?
> 
> Social norms are everywhere: A plane may not require one to shower and wear deodorant but people are offended when someone with poor hygiene sits next to them. Perhaps you have experienced this situation?  Is expecting passengers to shower and use deodorant pushing a belief on others? or just common courtesy and social norm? Besides, although unpleasant, your seatmate not showering won't make you ill. Covid will.



I’m not saying I wouldn’t wear a mask if the business required it
But at that point I could choose to put it on and go in ( or fly ) or to simply not use that particular businesses service

If I were in a store or on a plane that definitely did not require a mask and someone else was offended then at that point who is right?

We would both have a choice but the mask wearer is not right just because of how they feel and I’m not wrong because it’s not required so don’t judge ( not directing this at you ) me for doing what I’m allowed to do


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 15, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> If I were in a store or on a plane that definitely did not require a mask and someone else was offended then at that point who is right?
> 
> We would both have a choice but the mask wearer is not right just because of how they feel and I’m not wrong because it’s not required so don’t judge ( not directing this at you ) me for doing what I’m allowed to do



There is no rule that you are required to take a shower before boarding a plane. So it's okay to board planes without proper hygiene because there is no rule?

If a passenger stinks people will judge. (BTW...I am not saying you stink because you seem like a smart guy for thinking about this. Just working through the logic.)

This is a highly contagious disease. The consequences are much worse. Aren't you concerned about people breathing their germs on you in a plane?


----------



## geekette (May 15, 2020)

.... If I were in a store or on a plane that definitely did not require a mask and someone else was offended then at that point who is right? 

It's not about right and wrong, it's about "local rules", made by airline or biz owner.  As always, you can decide where to spend your money, doing business where you want.  

I just wish people would Move On if they don't like the particular rules.  Don't make a stink, just go elsewhere.  Like your example, putting a mask on to go in, or, decide to not go in.  

Once a person goes in, they have implicitly agreed with "house rules", which usually also includes shoes and shirt.  I am quite in favor of bouncing patrons, calling the cops if necessary.   I don't really know why people go in and protest a clear rule.   That is usually going to be the maskless.  It's not going to be the mask wearers asked to remove it or get out.

We should all just be peaceful about it.  We all want small business to succeed, so just do as they ask or go elsewhere.   I think the next dust up is going to be a party for dinner that is larger than the restaurant or local health rules will allow.  "But it's just one extra person!"  Sometimes, we're going to get No for an answer, and that should be accepted.  

These are tense times, let's not make it worse.   There was footage of a woman body slammed for not wearing a mask.  That is very much making it worse.  However, she was not following the rules.  Did not deserve that punishment, but, refused house rules.  She could have just left, or put on the mask.  I don't want to shop somewhere that rules are enforced that harshly, but it's not clear to me that it was employees laying hands on this woman.  That becomes the other issue - mob rule.  I'll do my share to not be part of that!


----------



## geekette (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> There is no rule that you have to take a shower before boarding a plane. So it's okay to board planes without proper hygiene because there is no rule?
> 
> If a passenger stinks people will judge. (BTW...I am not saying you stink because you seem like a smart guy for thinking about this.)
> 
> This is a highly contagious disease. The consequences are much worse.


Yeah.  Judgement is going to be part of it.  People don't get to say "don't judge" and expect judgement to cease.  That's just silly.   Saying it also makes clear they know they aren't operating in the realm of reasonable or customary and have zero consideration for others.

of course I will judge those not doing what they can to stop the spread of this virus.   If you happen to live in a pristine, untouched by virus area, then, I don't care.   But that's not where I live.


----------



## WVBaker (May 15, 2020)

"_We evaluate others with a Godlike justice, but we want them to evaluate us with a Godlike compassion._"
Sydney J. Harris


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 15, 2020)

There is a point where the pursuit of personal freedom crosses into personal entitlement.


----------



## Ken555 (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> There is no rule that you are required to take a shower before boarding a plane. So it's okay to board planes without proper hygiene because there is no rule?



Actually, the airlines can, and do, remove people due to odor complaints.









						American Airlines removes family from flight over body odor complaints
					

The family accused the airline of singling them out because they're Jewish.




					www.nbcnews.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## geekette (May 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Actually, the airlines can, and do, remove people due to odor complaints.


Have I told you lately that I appreciate your ability to dig up News of the Obscure?  

Not sure how it actually works, but I would expect boarding agents and flight attendants to have wide latitude in what will or will not fly.  Pun quite intended.


----------



## Brett (May 15, 2020)

geekette said:


> Yeah.  Judgement is going to be part of it.  People don't get to say "don't judge" and expect judgement to cease.  That's just silly.   Saying it also makes clear they know they aren't operating in the realm of reasonable or customary and have zero consideration for others.
> 
> of course I will judge those not doing what they can to stop the spread of this virus.   If you happen to live in a pristine, untouched by virus area, then, I don't care.   But that's not where I live.



yes, it's getting kinda crazy about the mask wearing
I'll go along with the Costco (and other) rules


----------



## TravelTime (May 15, 2020)

To me a mask means this:

I wear a mask because I have been told it could help, even though the evidence is mixed on how much it helps. I do not know if it really helps or not, but I will do it just in case. If there is a possibility a mask could reduce the chances of spreading the disease, even if it only helps a little bit, then I will do it because the sooner this disease is gone, the sooner we can all go back to a somewhat normal life again.

I also know wearing a mask makes the people around me feel more comfortable and it might actually keep me and others a little safer too. That is a small sacrifice to make to be able to go out into society. I would rather do the things that health experts tell me might help, then stay at home 24/7. If wearing a mask means I can go out to do groceries, pick up my medicines, do some errands, and eventually see my friends and family, do more activities, and travel, then I am willing to do it.

Wearing a mask is not a big deal and it can't hurt, so I do it just in case it helps. Wearing a mask does not mean I am stupid, or a sheep, or controlled by the media. It just means there is not enough science right now to know what works and doesn't work and I understand that the health experts are doing all they can to figure this out.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2020)

There are side effects to mask wearing 
Some worse than others
Many can be lessened or overcome but we the people are not taking those precautions 

I see people touch everything. Then their mask. Then hang it on the car mirror for next time

I also come across people who do about 1/2 of what they should be doing such as plexiglass at the register and then hand me change with physical contact


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2020)

Or how about your groceries 
Is everyone running all their purchases through the dishwasher?
That Covid ridden person who touched items you now brought into your home are infected

You. Your car. Purse. Countertop. Etc


----------



## Panina (May 15, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> There are side effects to mask wearing
> Some worse than others
> Many can be lessened or overcome but we the people are not taking those precautions
> 
> ...


More Education should be done for proper mask handling but Not using them correctly imo is not a excuse for not using them.


----------



## geekette (May 15, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Is everyone running all their purchases through the dishwasher?


Nope.  Just you.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2020)

geekette said:


> Nope.  Just you.



You cemented my point

Wear your mask. Judge those who don’t
And lick your canned goods


----------



## Monykalyn (May 15, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> I also come across people who do about 1/2 of what they should be doing such as plexiglass at the register and then hand me change with physical contact


Really-my issue with so many things today is the rush to "do something" without stopping to think and evaluate what is the best way; the plexiglass barrier at checkout is one of those things.
NO study anywhere says this is effective, and can actually make things worse due to air patterns/flow around the sides. Cumbersome and expensive. What IS effective are simple plastic face shields-also solves the problem when employee moves out from behind the barrier to bag groceries, or sanitize the belt etc. The face shields are available, and reusable. Keeps one from touching face as well. So what did every business do in a show "monkey-see monkey do-look at MY security theater show? Installed the barriers.     .

It is healthy to question the WHY-we can usually find better ways of doing things when we do that, or at least reinforce the rationale behind what we are doing. However-now if you don't immediately jump on the latest "feel good" whatever or question rationale behind it you are immediately questioned in your motives, and then put down in some way.  Not actually helpful.


----------



## Steve Fatula (May 15, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Or how about your groceries
> Is everyone running all their purchases through the dishwasher?
> That Covid ridden person who touched items you now brought into your home are infected
> 
> You. Your car. Purse. Countertop. Etc



I don't wash them, but I do quarantine them. Pretty simple to do. Yes, I do wipe down my car handles, steering wheel, etc. Generally, I don't touch them until sanitized. Again, very simple, takes seconds of time. Yes, I do sanitize my phone. None of this is difficult or much of a hassle. There is actually little evidence that spread is coming from groceries, but seems obvious it's possible. Am I fearful or scared or frantic or a germophobe? None of the above. Just basic simple no hassle minor precautions. Given my wifes list of illnesses, I believe her death rate if she catches it exceeds 10%. As I actually want to keep her,   , it would be pretty dumb imho to not take some precautions. But then again, we are not out very much, as recommended for older folks in our state. And actually though the advice is to not change clothes or wash (from what I have read) after going to the grocery store, I do. Again, very simple. And I also don't do business anywhere that does not require wearing masks inside. They won't get my money. And I still do it despite no cases in my county for 2 weeks. And I am a live free or die kinda guy too. Wearing a mask is a no brainer and to me shows you care about others at least as much as yourself.


----------



## davidvel (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> There are side effects to mask wearing
> Some worse than others
> Many can be lessened or overcome but we the people are not taking those precautions
> 
> ...


I agree we need to look at this more closely.  Nothing wrong with wearing a mask they say, unless there is.  

Masks are primarily used in the medical field on a short term basis. Their purpose is to collect contaminants on the inside from the wearer, and on the outside from others.  They are then discarded. Reusing them by laypeople, in ordinary life, has not been studied. I see people touching them incessantly, reusing them, etc. I saw a lady wearing gloves push her mask down and wiper her nose with her gloves, then push mask back, and go on shopping.  Would she have done this without them?


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

Not wearing a mask is the same as coughing in public without covering your mouth. It's inconsiderate of others as well as just plain rude. No one has a "right", or the "freedom" to increase the risk to others.


----------



## Cornell (May 16, 2020)

For those of you that are so “pro mask” ... what would you ultimately like to happen in regards to this topic?

A national order/law that masks must be worn ?


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Here’s an idea

All who are self imprisoned and wearing masks as a courtesy should stay home for 2 weeks while all who don’t are allowed to do business as usual and open the World back up

By the end of that period. All of us who ran around maskless should be dead and then the World will be yours, free of rebels and us covid carrying thugs

That’s basically what many are saying will happen anyway. 

I totally understand those who are at risk need to take precautions and they should. Just like the person in a wheelchair would around stairs. Or the person who has difficulty walking should when crossing a highway 

At some point this has to be the responsibility of the one who is concerned. Not everyone else in the entire world

I have concerns wearing a mask and whether  it helps or whether the covid is really what they say and so do a lot of others and that number is rapidly growing 
At first people took the time off and accepted it
Now? They are going broke. Going to lose their homes. May not have a job. Losing what little many have had and as we approach that point for the majority then it will be the majority that will say “ I don’t give a damn “


----------



## Panina (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Here’s an idea
> 
> All who are self imprisoned and wearing masks as a courtesy should stay home for 2 weeks while all who don’t are allowed to do business as usual and open the World back up
> 
> ...


A mask doesn’t stop people from working, moving about and doing what they need to.  It is a precaution,  that will give those who have  higher risk better protection from others wearing them so they don’t need to be locked in their homes and also can do what they need to.


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Here’s an idea
> 
> All who are self imprisoned and wearing masks as a courtesy should stay home for 2 weeks while all who don’t are allowed to do business as usual and open the World back up
> 
> ...




your "idea" may have a few flaws
whether it's sarcasm or not    .


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> For those of you that are so “pro mask” ... what would you ultimately like to happen in regards to this topic?
> 
> A national order/law that masks must be worn ?



In most places there is no "order" or "law" requiring a mask but some businesses require it
And I seriously doubt there will be a "national law" requiring wearing masks - just look at our national leader(s)


----------



## geekette (May 16, 2020)

....
At some point this has to be the responsibility of the one who is concerned. Not everyone else in the entire world

I have concerns wearing a mask and wether it helps or wether the covid is really what they say and so do a lot of others and that number is rapidly growing ...

Seriously?? 

I am not sure why you are unable to digest covid info, but this growing number you refer to has nothing to do with factual information about your droplets affecting other people.

How do you think this virus made it around the world, if not person to person spread?  Or, do you think there is no contagious illness impacting the world and killing people?  That it is some conspiracy perpetrated in country after country?


----------



## geekette (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> For those of you that are so “pro mask” ... what would you ultimately like to happen in regards to this topic?
> 
> A national order/law that masks must be worn ?


We don't need a law, I wouldn't be in favor of wasting time on that.   What I would like to see happen is people care about other people and keep their fluids to themselves voluntarily.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Brett said:


> your "idea" may have a few flaws
> whether it's sarcasm or not    .



Omg Brett!!

You are a lifesaver 
Why my phone switched my spelling or I actually misspelled a word is unclear 

But for you to comment on it shows how wonderful you are and any friends of yours must be honored to be worthy of being part of your circle

Haha haha


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Omg Brett!!
> 
> You are a lifesaver
> Why my phone switched my spelling or I actually misspelled a word is unclear
> ...



U R welcome my friend - just not sure what's sarcasm or not

(still believe in those faked moon landings ?  )


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## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

geekette said:


> ....
> At some point this has to be the responsibility of the one who is concerned. Not everyone else in the entire world
> 
> I have concerns wearing a mask and wether it helps or wether the covid is really what they say and so do a lot of others and that number is rapidly growing ...
> ...



Did you wear a mask last year when you had the flu?
Nope
You must not care either

I have watched people, especially old people spew droplets on others and not give a damn for years

You can argue that this is worse. Says who?  Media. Drs. Scientists?
For everyone that says it’s worse there is one professional who says it isn’t
Why is your news feed right and mine wrong?

We have been told not to believe everything you hear but with this you people can’t get enough of it
Cut your facts in half. Then reassess your life

If you still want to wear a mask. Then please do but if I don’t and you see me then stay away like 50’. 
That’s just as easy and considerate as me wearing a mask right?


----------



## presley (May 16, 2020)

Yesterday, I went my the frozen yogurt shop. We do have mandatory mask wearing in our county. There were a couple older males who were in line behind me, not wearing masks and talking (they didn't arrive together). I thought about this thread and how that was the first time I noticed only males not wearing masks. Usually, basically everyone, male and female, are not wearing masks in public. Anyhow, the part that grossed me out was that each one of them did a big spit on the ground. Why do so many men need to spit on the ground? I feel like I always see that. And, FWIW, it has grossed me out my entire life. I used to dry heave from seeing stuff like that when I was younger.


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## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

Brett said:


> In most places there is no "order" or "law" requiring a mask but some businesses require it
> And I seriously doubt there will be a "national law" requiring wearing masks - just look at our national leader(s)


Leaning a bit political?


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## geekette (May 16, 2020)

....You can argue that this is worse. Says who?  Media. Drs. Scientists? 

The WHO has determined this to be a global pandemic.  If you don't believe them either, ok.


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## "Roger" (May 16, 2020)

Just an update on my original post. I mentioned a farm retail store (carrying lots of other stuff from tools to clothing, often referred to locally as the man's mall) and a building supply center. As mentioned, the building supply center decided to impose a policy requiring all customers to wear masks. The farm retail store did not.

I had to go to both yesterday. Normally they do about the same amount of business. The building supply center was totally packed. I would say that the farm retail center had about three fourths the usual number of customers.


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## "Roger" (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> For those of you that are so “pro mask” ... what would you ultimately like to happen in regards to this topic?
> 
> A national order/law that masks must be worn ?


The situation is not all that new. I have been at many retail stores during a normal flu season when the clerk would be sneezing into his or her hand and then handling my stuff. At the same time, I knew that the clerk needed the job and was not afforded any sick leave. Not a good situation.

A law requiring face masks. Of course not. But to be quite honest, if someone were to make light of the health risks of the situation and the lack of sanitation, I would not be happy. JMHO


----------



## bnoble (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Did you wear a mask last year when you had the flu?


Ah yes, good ol' whataboutism.

There is a reasonably effective flu vaccine but little to no natural immunity to C19. C19's R0 is higher than influenza's. C19's case fatality rate is higher than influenza's. And, while we still don't really know, there is some mounting anecodotal evidence that the lingering effects of C19 in people who "recover" can be serious.

In other words: More people are vulnerable, it spreads faster, it kills more effectively, and may also do more collateral damage.

But sure, keep on making pointless comparisons in a disingenuous way to try to feel better about the fact that, as far as I am concerned, you won't do something that is minimally inconvenient in return for potentially protecting others around you. While you do that, welcome to my ignore list.

And, to your original question: I did not wear a mask, but I did get a flu shot. I did not do that for me alone, but also to help protect others who for one reason or another can't or won't get the vaccine.


----------



## bogey21 (May 16, 2020)

I resist wearing a mask.  If I am going to be in close proximity to someone (example getting my hair cut, visits to my Doctor, etc), I will.  Otherwise I try to stay 10' away form others and will only get on empty elevators.  I'm more stubborn than practical but that is what I do...

George


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## Firepath (May 16, 2020)

Most of the mask wearers in my area are seniors, or at least gray-haired ( since I can’t see faces). I’m a “pre-senior” and I wear a mask.


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## geist1223 (May 16, 2020)

Whether you support the wearing of Masks or not if it is a store policy you should comply without argument or shop elsewhere. But people whom are attacking store employees for being reminded that a Mask is required to shop is way over the top. They need to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extend of the law. Instead of attacking an employee for doing her job just leave.


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## SmithOp (May 16, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> I resist wearing a mask. If I am going to be in close proximity to someone (example getting my hair cut), I will. Otherwise I try to stay 10' away form others and will only get on empty elevators. I'm more stubborn than practical but that is what I do...
> 
> George



You might want to go a little longer without a haircut George, we wont call you a hippie. 










						New York barber who defied stay-at-home orders and continued to "illicitly" cut hair tests positive for coronavirus
					

"Learning that a barbershop has been operating illicitly for weeks with a COVID-19 positive employee is extraordinarily disheartening," the county health commissioner said.




					www.cbsnews.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SmithOp (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> I also come across people who do about 1/2 of what they should be doing such as plexiglass at the register and then hand me change with physical contact



Wait, you are one of those that still insist on using filthy paper money and dirty coins? 

Waiting for someone to dig coins out of a purse or pocket at the checkout is more annoying that not wearing a mask.

Google or Apple Pay on your phone, just wave it near the card reader, and you get bonus points or cash back for using credit cards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Cornell (May 16, 2020)

Thought:  Is there a component of mysophobia going on here in regards to reactions to C19, particularly in regards to advocating for mask usage?


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## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Thought:  Is there a component of mysophobia going on here in regards to reactions to C19, particularly in regards to advocating for mask usage?


Sounds like a reasonably scientific explanation.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 16, 2020)

There was a time during the 1800s when not taking a shower for weeks was perfectly acceptable. Although there is no law, people now shower at least a few times a week. This is considered good hygiene and courteous to others.

Doctors wear masks. The government experts recommend wearing masks. Covid is more infectious than the flu and there is no vaccine.

Times change. Norms change. A person's choice to wear a mask doesn't affect your rights. But your choice not to wear a mask affects other peoples' rights.

Either get over it, or stay home and find ways to remain socially distant so your choice doesn't affect others.


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## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

SmithOp said:


> Wait, you are one of those that still insist on using filthy paper money and dirty coins?
> 
> Waiting for someone to dig coins out of a purse or pocket at the checkout is more annoying that not wearing a mask.
> 
> ...



No
I rarely even have cash on me but when this whole thing started I did grab some just in case so I’ve been using some of it lately for non business expenditures 

I usually always use a card as most everything is itemized business expense


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## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> There was a time during the 1800s when not taking a shower for weeks was perfectly acceptable. Although there is no law, people now shower at least a few times a week. This is considered good hygiene and courteous to others.
> 
> Doctors wear masks. The government experts recommend wearing masks. Covid is more infectious than the flu and there is no vaccine.
> 
> ...



Please explain how a person who chooses not to wear a mask is in violation of your right?

Store or zip code requirements aside

If there is no law. No store mandate for a mask the. Those who wear one or those who do not are both equally within each other’s right

Deal with the non wearers or stay home. Right?

Again. Not aimed at you but rather the discussion so don’t take my comments personally


----------



## Panina (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Thought:  Is there a component of mysophobia going on here in regards to reactions to C19, particularly in regards to advocating for mask usage?


Time will tell.  I guess what bothers me most is I wear a mask and accept science later might prove it wasn’t necessary.  Everyone who doesn’t and says others should stay home if they don’t like it cannot acknowledge science later might prove them wrong and they made the situation worse.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

We have some who want to burn the planet and start anew 
Others don’t see anything wrong

Somewhere in the middle is the truth and solution


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Thought:  Is there a component of mysophobia going on here in regards to reactions to C19, particularly in regards to advocating for mask usage?


Possibly, but I usually associate "mysophobia" with irrational actions such as compulsive hand washing. That's not what's happening here. Keep in mind that wearing a mask is recommended the CDC, WHO, the EU Health Commission, in addition to the public health organizations of almost every country in the world. But as always, there will never be a shortage of people that think they know better.

Here's the CDC reccomendation:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/downloads/cloth-face-coverings-information.pdf

Here's the World Health Organization reccomendation: https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

This is from the European CDC: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/infographic-using-face-masks-community

Pick any country you like, and you'll find the same or similar guidance. But like I said, "there will never be a shortage of people that think they know better".


----------



## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Either get over it, or stay home and find ways to remain socially distant so your choice doesn't affect others.



People have always or least should, question any response thought to be valid response, regardless of how many accept it.

Just one case involved a Polio vaccine in the 1990s There was a known risk of the vaccination, which caused roughly one case of the disease per 2.4 million doses, often in people with an immune deficiency. A safer, inactivated, polio vaccine was available at the time, but the oral vaccine was cheaper, easier to administer and thought to be more effective at controlling outbreaks. Should the individuals who refused that vaccine, "Either get over it, or hang onto your buggy whip"?

Another was a 1976 swine-flu vaccine distributed in the United States was associated with between five and nine cases per one million vaccine recipients. Scientists were specifically looking for Guillain-Barré syndrome, a paralytic disorder that is often treatable but can cause long-term disability or death.During the 2009–10 pandemic, something stranger turned up: some 60 cases of narcolepsy emerged among 4- to 19-year-olds in Finland. Most had received the H1N1 vaccine Pandemrix, made by GlaxoSmithKline in Brentford, UK. Another narcolepsy cluster showed up in Sweden.  Should those individuals also have been told "Either get over it, or hang onto your buggy whip"?

What is thought to be sound medical advice one day, may not be the next. We should not disparage someone simply because they choose not to follow along with the masses.


----------



## dsmrp (May 16, 2020)

I've been making cloth masks for family n' friends. Have more fabrics in colors and prints I think women would like. So on a few  I ask DD, would a guy wear this color?  Most times her answer is yes. Or darker colors which I think women wouldn't prefer, she thinks they would wear. She's been giving out some masks to her patients.

DH read on his news feed about a few businesses refusing to admit people who were wearing masks. Personally I'd take my business elsewhere.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Please explain how a person who chooses not to wear a mask is in violation of your right?
> 
> Store or zip code requirements aside
> 
> ...



Yep. Non-mask wearers could be infecting others and may not know it...or do they mistakenly believe they are divinely superior and could never get sick?

What is this first grade? If one needs a law to adhere to common courtesy, then it is a sad state indeed. I don't like wearing a mask but I will do so out of courtesy for others and to protect my own health.

I am not disparaging your choice. Just saying that those that choose otherwise need to stay home or stay away so you are not imposing your choice on other peoples' rights.

*My choice to wear a mask doesn't affect your rights but your choosing not to wear one in public spaces affects mine.*


----------



## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

cman said:


> Possibly, but I usually associate "mysophobia" with irrational actions such as compulsive hand washing.



So much more.

*Signs of Mysophobia*
avoiding places perceived as germ-filled
spending excessive time cleaning and decontaminating
washing hands obsessively
refusing to share personal items
avoiding physical contact with others
fearing contamination of children
avoiding crowds or animals









						Mysophobia (Germophobia): Are You a Germaphobe?
					

If you're a germaphobe who feels irrational fear and anxiety when encountering scenarios that involve germs, you may suffer from Mysophobia (Germophobia)




					www.psycom.net


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> We should not disparage someone simply because they choose not to follow along with the masses.


Agreed. However, I have no problem disparaging someone that refuses to extend a common courtesy.


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

Humans have evolved to minimize the spread of disease and shun those who are not careful. I think the worldwide response to Covid reflects this. I am not saying that we should not be worried and not take precautions but if we put this disease into evolutionary perspective, then the widespread anxiety about Covid makes sense.









						The fear of coronavirus is changing our psychology
					

The threat of contagion can twist our psychological responses to ordinary interactions, leading us to behave in unexpected ways.




					www.bbc.com
				




_Anything that reduces the risk of infection in the first place should therefore have offered a distinct survival advantage. For this reason, we evolved a set of unconscious psychological responses – which Schaller has termed the “behavioural immune system” – to act as a first line of defence to reduce our contact with potential pathogens.

Since humans are a social species that evolved to live in big groups, the behavioural immune system also modified our interactions with people to minimise the spread of disease, leading to a kind of instinctive social distancing.

Apparently any signs of free thinking – even invention and innovation – become less valued when there is the risk of contagion. In explicit questionnaires, they are also more likely to agree with statements such as “breaking social norms can have harmful, unintended consequences”._


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## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

cman said:


> Agreed. However, I have no problem disparaging someone that refuses to extend a common courtesy.


Which is certainly your right however, don't insist others are in some way wrong if they choose not to.


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## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Yep. Non-mask wearers could be infecting others and may not know it...or do they mistakenly believe they are divinely superior and could never get sick?
> 
> What is this first grade? If one needs a law to adhere to common courtesy, then it is a sad state indeed. I don't like wearing a mask but I will do so out of courtesy for others and to protect my own health.
> 
> ...



Well what is it?
You said common courtesy and right

Common courtesy I get
The it’s your right over mine I don’t 

You go to Walmart with a mask. That’s your right
I go with out. That my right
Your right doesn’t trump mine and nor does mine your
I won’t forfeit my rights or freedoms so others can impose theirs. 

If that’s the case then when we get chipped we will also all wear the same uniform and stand shoulder to shoulder at attention while we get our orders

Yeah. That’s extreme. But not far fetched


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> So much more.
> 
> *Signs of Mysophobia*
> avoiding places perceived as germ-filled
> ...


I hear you. But that's not what's happening here. The difference is in this case, masks are recommended by public health officials as a means to reduce transmission of the virus. Mysopobia, is an irrational response, wearing a mask is an informed one. Big difference.


----------



## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

cman said:


> I hear you. But that's not what's happening here. The difference is in this case, masks are recommended by public health officials as a means to reduce transmission of the virus. Mysopobia, is an irrational response, wearing a mask is an informed one. Big difference.


I suppose we'll simply agree to disagree.


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> So much more.
> 
> *Signs of Mysophobia*
> avoiding places perceived as germ-filled
> ...



Mysophobia might be an evolutionary response to the fear of germs. I suspect the strong responses to the risk of Covid is shaped by human evolution to minimize diseases and shun others who do not follow the “rules.”









						Misunderstanding Microbes – Mysophobia
					






					www.calmclinic.com
				




_“While the above theories are related to the point of view that holds that nurture has more to do with phobia than nature, evolutionary psychologists have suggested that predisposition towards disorders like mysophobia and OCD may be at least partially the result of genetics. Their theory holds that humans who were highly aware of cleanliness and possible health hazards within their living area might have been more likely to survive than others who weren’t, leading to a genetic trait that is more prominent in some than in others. Remember that not long ago in our history, there was no such thing as soap, and so exposure to countless germs could mean early death in a way that is no longer true.”_


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

I’m thinking one day we will hear commercials that go
Do you or someone you know suffer from xyz caused from wearing a mask during C19?
You may be entitled to compensation


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Which is certainly your right however, don't insist others are in some way wrong if they choose not to.


But they are wrong. They're just as wrong as someone that coughs in a crowded room and "refuses" to cover their mouths. It's rude and inconsiderate of others. Such a person should be disparaged.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 16, 2020)

One has a right to not wear a mask when it doesn't affect others' rights. However when one imposes that choice by breathing their germs on others in a public space, then they are impinging on other peoples' rights to clean air. Claiming "this is my right" reeks of entitlement. This is no different than second-hand smoke on an airplane.

There is a point where personal freedom crosses into the realm of personal entitlement.

One can certainly avoid wearing a mask when the law allows. But don't expect to be welcome in public spaces in most major metropolitan and suburban areas. Going to stores and on airplanes is a privilege not a right and there is no requirement to use these services to practice that choice.


----------



## geekette (May 16, 2020)

....I won’t forfeit my rights or freedoms so others can impose theirs.

But you are imposing your spittle on others.


----------



## Cornell (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Well what is it?
> You said common courtesy and right
> 
> Common courtesy I get
> ...


It’s actually not far fetched. The fact that state of WA was going to have a login system for tracking movement of patrons is really alarming to me. Yet many shrugged their shoulders and accept it in the name of “public health”. No thanks .
(The tracking idea in WA state has gone by the wayside. Seems like the ACLU got involved).


----------



## Monykalyn (May 16, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yes, I do sanitize my phone.


 I don't consider myself a germaphobe, just aware of sanitation and I sanitize my phone and have before all this started. Want to talk about a petri dish of germs!


Brett said:


> whether it's sarcasm or not .


 I like your use of sarcasm emoji 


presley said:


> Anyhow, the part that grossed me out was that each one of them did a big spit on the ground. Why do so many men need to spit on the ground? I feel like I always see that. And, FWIW, it has grossed me out my entire life. I


 Gross and disgusting no matter what eeeew


CalGalTraveler said:


> Although there is no law, people now shower at least a few times a week. This is considered good hygiene and courteous to others.


 And there is a school of thought that frequent showering is impairing immune systems...


WVBaker said:


> Just one case involved a Polio vaccine in the 1990s There was a known risk of the vaccination, which caused roughly one case of the disease per 2.4 million doses, often in people with an immune deficiency. A safer, inactivated, polio vaccine was available at the time, but the oral vaccine was cheaper, easier to administer and thought to be more effective at controlling outbreaks. Should the individuals who refused that vaccine, "Either get over it, or hang onto your buggy whip"?


 And to show how that has evolved-between my first and third kid it changed several times: one got live dose, one got inactivated and one got 1/2 and 1/2. Seriously. 

Only pointing out the changing thoughts over the times, as the public mask wearing debate is evolving as well.


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

Why do masks cause such contention? No one is vehemently arguing about 6’ social distancing or washing hands for 20 seconds. We have had sick people coughing all over us forever but it never caused such contention as now. Masks have become a contentious social issue. Why is that?


----------



## bnoble (May 16, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> And there is a school of thought that frequent showering is impairing immune systems...


Nope. That's a false-equivalence fallacy. The fact that a few people exist who say that doesn't mean there is any serious body of experts who would argue for it---and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find such a group.


----------



## Monykalyn (May 16, 2020)

bnoble said:


> Nope. That's a false-equivalence fallacy. The fact that a few people exist who say that doesn't mean there is any serious body of experts who would argue for it---and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find such a group.





			https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/showering-daily-is-it-necessary-2019062617193
		


More towards keeping kids in a super "clean" environment now - not allowed to dig in dirt, antimicrobial everywhere etc.


----------



## WVBaker (May 16, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Why do masks cause such contention? No one is vehemently arguing about 6’ social distancing or washing hands for 20 seconds. We have had sick people coughing all over us forever but it never caused such contention as now. Masks have become a contentious social issue. Why is that?


No covering it up: Wearing face masks during coronavirus new divisive issue









						No covering it up: Wearing face masks during coronavirus new divisive issue
					

In a divided country, a new issue has pushed people into two camps -- those who wear face masks and those who refuse to wear face masks.



					www.newarkadvocate.com
				





Read the "Quoteables". There seems to be as many reasons as there are individuals.


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> I’m thinking one day we will hear commercials that go
> Do you or someone you know suffer from xyz caused from wearing a mask during C19?
> You may be entitled to compensation



this pandemic can be a HUGE money maker for you !


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Brett said:


> this pandemic can be a HUGE money maker for you !



Nah

I’d have Dbags like you lining up at my office door


----------



## Panina (May 16, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> People have always or least should, question any response thought to be valid response, regardless of how many accept it.
> 
> Just one case involved a Polio vaccine in the 1990s There was a known risk of the vaccination, which caused roughly one case of the disease per 2.4 million doses, often in people with an immune deficiency. A safer, inactivated, polio vaccine was available at the time, but the oral vaccine was cheaper, easier to administer and thought to be more effective at controlling outbreaks. Should the individuals who refused that vaccine, "Either get over it, or hang onto your buggy whip"?
> 
> ...


With medicines I agree. We are talking about a masks, very different.  If worn properly no harm done if they are wrong.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 16, 2020)

LOL...How many cowboys have died from wearing a bandana?


----------



## Panina (May 16, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Why do masks cause such contention? No one is vehemently arguing about 6’ social distancing or washing hands for 20 seconds. We have had sick people coughing all over us forever but it never caused such contention as now. Masks have become a contentious social issue. Why is that?


Good question.  

I hate wearing a mask, it is not comfortable but I wear it.  I would never want to spread the virus to a vulnerable person.  

I believe the vulnerable population has rights too to be protected. It upsets me when I see others say stay home if you don’t like I am not wearing a mask.  It’s like the vulnerable are forgotten and they don’t matter.  

No one should have to choose between total isolation or going back into civilization and risking the asymptotic person not wearing a mask could infect them.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> LOL...How many cowboys have died from wearing a bandana?
> 
> View attachment 20747



Yeah
But didn’t they play in the dirt?

When I was a kid and someone got cut or hurt some older person would jokingly say rub some dirt on it. You’ll be fine

Maybe there’s some truth to that?

The past 20 years all kids have lived indoors, maybe we are creating our own issues


----------



## bnoble (May 16, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/showering-daily-is-it-necessary-2019062617193
> 
> 
> 
> More towards keeping kids in a super "clean" environment now - not allowed to dig in dirt, antimicrobial everywhere etc.


"You don't need to shower every day" is not the same as "Showering every day impairs your immune system." The article mentions "some" say that it "may" with no citations. Again: the fact that a few pediatricians say this is not the same as a serious body (say, the American Academy of Pediatrics) recommending it. So, exactly another example of the "both sides" fallacy.

The author even reports that _he_ showers every day despite the article he has written.

Try again. Or not, up to you.


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

I agree it would be nice if everyone wore masks and had the mindset that wearing a mask protects others and possibly themselves too. Regardless of whether people wear masks or not, shouldn’t the vulnerable people stay home as much as possible until there is a vaccine or herd immunity? I think vulnerable people should stay home because I care about them. Not as a punishment. Not because some people are not wearing masks. There are so many unknowns we do not know so going out for vulnerable people may not be safe (and if vulnerable people go out then they need to be aware of the trade offs). Maybe the mask wearer looks safe but has not washed their hands. OTOH, maybe the non-mask wearer has great hygiene and religiously stays more than 6’ away from everyone else. I do not want my elderly great-aunt or my older father with diabetes starting to go out a lot just because restrictions have been lifted. They are still vulnerable and should stay home as much as possible until it is safe to go out for them or they choose to take the risk (I am okay with people choosing to take risks if they are aware of the trade offs). On the other hand, I think younger people and older people with no underlying conditions should be allowed to go out more. In an ideal world, everyone would be following all safety guidelines but I am not going to get bent out of shape or worry too much about what other people are doing. Ultimately, I believe we can only control ourselves unless we pass laws to regulate. Even then, we know people break the laws and bring harm to others. The good news is that the vast majority of people are following all safety guidelines as much as possible. I am really amazed how society and social norms have changed in just 2 months. This seems like the most rapid adoption of public health guidelines in our history.


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Nah
> 
> I’d have Dbags like you lining up at my office door




OK
But I gotta ask  -   if all the "Dbags" are lined up at your door just what kind of business are you in ?


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Brett said:


> OK
> But I gotta ask  -   if all the "Dbags" are lined up at your door just what kind of business are you in ?



You really need to learn how to read

It was a reply to his point on lawyers etc

He told me it would be a $$ maker for me if I started the business of getting money for victims of covid mask wearing

Scroll up and use all the words. Not just a few

But
If I was in the business you insinuate then I know two people who would be camping out


----------



## Panina (May 16, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I agree it would be nice if everyone wore masks and had the mindset that wearing a mask protects others and possibly themselves too. Regardless of whether people wear masks or not, shouldn’t the vulnerable people stay home as much as possible until there is a vaccine or herd immunity? I think vulnerable people should stay home because I care about them. Not as a punishment. Not because some people are not wearing masks. There are so many unknowns we do not know so going out for vulnerable people may not be safe (and if vulnerable people go out then they need to be aware of the trade offs). Maybe that mask wearer looks safe but has not washed their hands. OTOH, maybe the non-mask wearer has great hygiene and religiously stays more than 6’ away from everyone else. I do not want my elderly great-aunt or my older father with diabetes starting to go out a lot just because restrictions have been lifted. They are still vulnerable and should stay home as much as possible until it is safe to go out for them or they choose to take the risk (I am okay with people choosing to take risks if they are aware of the trade offs). On the other hand, I think younger people and older people with no underlying conditions should be allowed to go out more. In an ideal world, everyone would be following all safety guidelines but I am not going to get bent out of shape or worry too much about what other people are doing. Ultimately, I believe we can only control ourselves unless we pass laws to regulate. Even then, we know people break the laws and bring harm to others. The good news is that the vast majority of people are following all safety guidelines as much as possible. I am really amazed how society and social norms have changed in just 2 months. This seems like the most rapid adoption of public health guidelines in our history.


Telling the vulnerable to stay home is unrealistic.  They are the ones who need to go see their doctors.  Saying stay home as much as they can still puts them  in the path of Areas that others did not where masks.

To go to a macular shot mom had two choices a bus or a taxi.  She had her cloth mask on but what if the driver doesn’t wear a mask or the person in the Taxi prior to her didn’t wear a mask and covid particles are there.  Same with the bus.

Many vulnerable have no one to help them and have no choice but to go to the store.  Many elderly do not  know how to do online orders or use the internet.  Some are on snap for food and there is no food delivery under the program to their area and they have to go to the store to get food.

I can go on and on with examples. Most people cannot lock themselves in their home. Life goes on if there are no alternatives. 

I just can’t understand why the population as a whole cannot take the vulnerable into consideration. It saddens me we live in a me, me , me society.  I am the first to believe and fight for our rights but in the process that doesn’t mean we cannot be kind, considerate and protect those who are more vulnerable then us.


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

Panina said:


> Telling the vulnerable to stay home is unrealistic.  They are the ones who need to go see their doctors.  Saying stay home as much as they can still puts them  in the path of Areas that others did not where masks.
> 
> To go to a macular shot mom had two choices a bus or a taxi.  She had her cloth mask on but what if the driver doesn’t wear a mask or the person in the Taxi prior to her didn’t wear a mask and covid particles are there.  Same with the bus.
> 
> ...



I did not mean to say the vulnerable should not go out at all but that they should still stay home as much as possible. IMHO, I think people need to be realistic about the risks. Even if everyone wears masks, the vulnerable are still taking a risk when they go out. Mask wearers may be touching their mask and face and then touching other things when they go out. A mask wearer may be re-using the mask (like I do since I have only been able to obtain one mask, still waiting on my Amazon order). The mask a mask user is wearing may not be high quality enough to prevent germs from escaping it. 

My point is that masks are not panaceas. Like I said, in an ideal world, everyone would follow all guidelines 100% but that is not realistic either. The health experts have said that hand washing and social distancing are still the most important safety measures. I think there is a strange obsession with masks and like I asked earlier, I wonder why masks have become so contentious. There are so many things we need to do to stay safe. A mask is only one small part of it.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Panina said:


> Telling the vulnerable to stay home is unrealistic.  They are the ones who need to go see their doctors.  Saying stay home as much as they can still puts them  in the path of Areas that others did not where masks.
> 
> To go to a macular shot mom had two choices a bus or a taxi.  She had her cloth mask on but what if the driver doesn’t wear a mask or the person in the Taxi prior to her didn’t wear a mask and covid particles are there.  Same with the bus.
> 
> ...



I personally would hope a doctors office would have a mask mandate and I’d be ok with that 
Busses?  Sure, same thing. I’d be ok

At a bar. Restaurant. Department type store where it’s an optional type business then I’m going naked 

I think there’s a place for mandates but not every place

I don’t smoke. So before smoking was banned in bars. Restaurants etc then I had to make a choice 
Breath smoke or find one that was smoke free 

Maybe places will start being either mask or mask free??


----------



## bluehende (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> The past 20 years all kids have lived indoors, maybe we are creating our own issues



Where do you get this stuff?

When I was young, way over 20 yrs ago, I was inside playing with toys and outdoors playing with friends.  I see very little difference in kids today.  Coming from a little league coach, scout leader, kids mountain biking group leader.  My wife has been in day care for over 40 yrs.  Every day care has play in the dirt time.  You seem to make up things to prove your point.


----------



## geist1223 (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Thought:  Is there a component of mysophobia going on here in regards to reactions to C19, particularly in regards to advocating for mask usage?



Have you spent much time analyzing your dislike for Masks? Is your daughter required to wear a Mask as a Shopper? I assume you have stopped shopping at all stores that require a Mask.


----------



## Cornell (May 16, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Have you spent much time analyzing your dislike for Masks? Is your daughter required to wear a Mask as a Shopper? I assume you have stopped shopping at all stores that require a Mask.


Masks are required in IL so yes we both wear them in grocery stores


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Where do you get this stuff?
> 
> When I was young, way over 20 yrs ago, I was inside playing with toys and outdoors playing with friends.  I see very little difference in kids today.  Coming from a little league coach, scout leader, kids mountain biking group leader.  My wife has been in day care for over 40 yrs.  Every day care has play in the dirt time.  You seem to make up things to prove your point.



What point am I proving?

Many parents are too afraid to let their kids out. Many kids are addicted to gaming

When I was a kid we wouldn’t go home until way past dark
Do parents allow that now?
No way
Do a little research 
I know you and a couple others have a hard on for me but hey. I don’t approve nor do I swing your way

Fact!!


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Where do you get this stuff?
> 
> When I was young, way over 20 yrs ago, I was inside playing with toys and outdoors playing with friends.  I see very little difference in kids today.  Coming from a little league coach, scout leader, kids mountain biking group leader.  My wife has been in day care for over 40 yrs.  Every day care has play in the dirt time.  You seem to make up things to prove your point.



Here you go
One quick search
[Personal insult removed]









						Why Kids Need to Spend Time in Nature - Child Mind Institute
					

They may prefer to stick to their screens, but here's why getting children outdoors matters - spending time in nature for mental health.




					childmind.org


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> What point am I proving?
> 
> Many parents are too afraid to let their kids out. Many kids are addicted to gaming
> 
> ...




not gonna comment ....


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

Brett said:


> not gonna comment ....



Silence looks better on you than that sweater tied around your neck anyways


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Silence looks better on you than that sweater tied around your neck anyways



LOL 
at least this discussion is not about the faked moon landings


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

[Removed.  Completely unacceptable personal attack.]


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2020)

[Removed quote of deleted post]


OK
I guess it's ends like the fake moon landings thread


----------



## sue1947 (May 16, 2020)

[Removed quote of deleted post]
deleted


----------



## bluehende (May 16, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> Here you go
> One quick search
> [Personal insult removed]
> 
> ...



I will leave your insult alone as it says way more about you than me.  May I suggest decaf next time.




Look at my reply and you will see that I volunteer in many organizations that DO get kids outside.  Now with a quick search find something that says kids are staying inside so much that a generation of immune systems are compromised.  Kids do different things today.  Many more organized activities than I had.  I had more than my parents.  My guess is my parents had more than their parents.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2020)

bluehende said:


> I will leave your insult alone as it says way more about you than me.  May I suggest decaf next time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



(removed personal attack/lecture)

My apologies for hurting your feelings

I will leave it at that


----------



## Cornell (May 16, 2020)

Even females don't wear masks. And this one is a nurse.









						Illinois nurse expresses regret for bar visit without mask
					

A northern Illinois nurse is expressing regret for not taking better precautions while visiting her sister's Wisconsin bar.




					abc7chicago.com


----------



## TravelTime (May 16, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Even females don't wear masks. And this one is a nurse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is strange to me. It seems like her employer is monitoring her behavior and she apologized because of her employer.


----------



## dayooper (May 16, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This is strange to me. It seems like her employer is monitoring her behavior and she apologized because of her employer.



Happens all the time in the education field. Not only does administration watch social media channels, some of the parents watch them as well.


----------



## cman (May 16, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> OTOH, maybe the non-mask wearer has great hygiene and religiously stays more than 6’ away from everyone else.


I'd like to believe this to be the case, but find it highly unlikely. Absent a medical reason for not wearing a mask, the person that refuses to wear one, either lacks consideration for others, or has been somehow swayed into believing that C19 is some type of hoax. They're easy to pick out. The markers are words such as "freedom", "rights", and liberty. As soon as you see those words, take cover, because an informed conversation is not going to follow. Guidance from recognized experts, they don't care. Peer reviewed scientific journals, they don't care. They just have this thing fixated in their minds that, someone is trying to take their "liberty", and will abandon all logical reasoning that does not support their preconceived conclusion.

The whole mask contention is basically an American issue. Most of the world thinks these people are crazy.


----------



## Cornell (May 17, 2020)

cman said:


> I'd like to believe this to be the case, but find it highly unlikely. Absent a medical reason for not wearing a mask, the person that refuses to wear one, either lacks consideration for others, or has been somehow swayed into believing that C19 is some type of hoax. They're easy to pick out. The markers are words such as "freedom", "rights", and liberty. As soon as you see those words, take cover, because an informed conversation is not going to follow. Guidance from recognized experts, they don't care. Peer reviewed scientific journals, they don't care. They just have this thing fixated in their minds that, someone is trying to take their "liberty", and will abandon all logical reasoning that does not support their preconceived conclusion.
> 
> The whole mask contention is basically an American issue. Most of the world thinks these people are crazy.


I have a dog named "Liberty" .  Is that OK?


----------



## cman (May 17, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have a dog named "Liberty" .  Is that OK?


You don't have a "right", "freedom", or "liberty" to increase the risk to others. That's a delusional thought. If you want to increase your risk profile, then go for it. But don't ask us to accept "your" risks.


----------



## Cornell (May 17, 2020)

cman said:


> You don't have a "right", "freedom", or "liberty" to increase the risk to others. That's a delusional thought. If you want to increase your risk profile, then go for it. But don't ask us to accept "your" risks.


Wow - quite the comment about the fact that my dog's name is Liberty.


----------



## cman (May 17, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Wow - quite the comment about the fact that my dog's name is Liberty.


Glad you get the point.


----------



## Cornell (May 17, 2020)

cman said:


> Glad you get the point.


Too funny


----------



## CO skier (May 17, 2020)

cman said:


> I'd like to believe this to be the case, but find it highly unlikely. Absent a medical reason for not wearing a mask, the person that refuses to wear one, either lacks consideration for others, or has been somehow swayed into believing that C19 is some type of hoax. They're easy to pick out. The markers are words such as "freedom", "rights", and liberty. As soon as you see those words, take cover, because an informed conversation is not going to follow. Guidance from recognized experts, they don't care. Peer reviewed scientific journals, they don't care. They just have this thing fixated in their minds that, someone is trying to take their "liberty", and will abandon all logical reasoning that does not support their preconceived conclusion.
> 
> The whole mask contention is basically an American issue. Most of the world thinks these people are crazy.


This is just another media distortion.

Maybe many Americans think the same thing Sweden and other countries do.

"Face masks in public spaces do not provide any greater protection to the population," Johan Carlson from the Swedish Public Health Agency Folkhälsomyndigheten said at a press conference on May 13th.

Swedish health authorities argue that keeping a distance, washing your hands, not touching your face, and staying at home if you experience any symptoms are still the best ways to halt the spread of the coronavirus. There is a concern that wearing face masks would make people follow these guidelines less strictly.

Prime minister Stefan Löfven told reporters at the same press conference: "There is a risk of a false sense of security, that you believe that you can't be infected if you wear a face mask."


----------



## Ken555 (May 17, 2020)

Another day on TUG with the same people arguing the same points. Why should this day be any different than any other day?

And some people think the media doesn’t influence opinion... 

As for me, it just makes sense to wear a mask. I read those studies about how fast and far droplets travel with sneezes, coughs and just regular talking. I don’t need conclusive scientific proof to make me only want to be near (ie. at least six feet away) others that are wearing masks. If it’s later proven that they don’t help, no biggie - we just spent some time being overly cautious. I don’t get why this is such a problem for some people...but then I circle back to the media and the instinctive reaction for those people to do the opposite of what some people say “just because“.







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## davidvel (May 17, 2020)

The only thing these face coverings/bandannas/masks (FCs) do with respect to COVID19 is stop the spread of droplets from sneezes and coughs from someone with COVID19 to surfaces (or if they sneeze on you).  But  they also then would concentrate the virus in the mask of the wearer to be reabsorbed.  They don't stop virus in the breath of asymptomatic people, even if this is a potential spread source.  (There is no confirmed research of transmission via aerosolized virus in breath vs. droplets.)

I haven't seen someone sneeze or cough in the last 2 months, and I'm out in public daily. If someone sneezed or coughed and didn't have a mask I'd be pissed, even if it might be allergies. 

Nothing wrong with these FCs, but the transmission of COVID19 in public is through the eyes, mouth and nose, from infected droplets; almost always something you *touched*.  Whether someone is infected is wearing a mask will not protect you from everything they touch.  Best thing anyone can do is wear their own FC and continually use straight isopropyl (not the gel sanitizers) after touching anything, and routinely washing their hands and face when at home.  This will prevent almost all transmission, regardless of what others do.


----------



## davidvel (May 17, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Another day on TUG with the same people arguing the same points. Why should this day be any different than any other day?
> 
> And some people think the media doesn’t influence opinion...
> 
> ...


When is the last time that someone sneezed or coughed on/near you, with or without a mask?  I haven't seen anyone cough or sneeze in the last 2 months, and would run and sanitize myself with ispropol if it happened. 

NO ONE WHO IS COUGHING OR SNEEZING SHOULD BE OUT IN PUBLIC, OR ALLOWED TO BE IN PUBLIC, *regardless of mask use*. But these are the 2 primary bases for making people wear masks. 

No, masks themselves aren't bad, it's how they use them. Masks are good, 

Unless ... the mask makes people who are sick (have illness symptoms) think they won't contaminate and transmit to others if they have a mask and go out. 

Unless ... people who are coughing or sneezing put a mask on and go out.

Unless ... people don't discard their mask, and accumulate much more virus and continually inhale it than if they had no mask. 

Unless .. there are people (including asymptomatic carriers) that think that wearing  a mask will protect themselves and others, and don't otherwise properly sanitize. 

Unless...many other reasons. 

NO ONE WHO IS COUGHING OR SNEEZING SHOULD BE OUT IN PUBLIC, OR ALLOWED TO BE IN PUBLIC. But these are the 2 primary bases for making people wear masks. 

Unless people are sneezing or coughing on you, wearing your own mask and consistently sanitizing your hands is the best protection.


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## Ken555 (May 17, 2020)

davidvel said:


> When is the last time that someone sneezed or coughed on/near you, with or without a mask? I haven't seen anyone cough or sneeze in the last 2 months, and would run and sanitize myself with ispropol if it happened.
> 
> NO ONE WHO IS COUGHING OR SNEEZING SHOULD BE OUT IN PUBLIC, OR ALLOWED TO BE IN PUBLIC, *regardless of mask use*. But these are the 2 primary bases for making people wear masks.
> 
> ...



From your posts, I’m fairly sure you understand the issue. And the point of my post. Yet, you then make the statement that people are not in public who are sneezing or coughing...are you kidding? I’m not in public much at all right now but pre-C19 this was commonplace. Sure, people who cough or sneeze shouldn’t be in public now, but by the time they sneeze what are you going to do? C’mon...again, the point of the mask is to protect others. See my comments about the studies. I’m not going to wait for conclusive proof that we should all wear masks...it just makes sense. Sure, it’s not perfect, and sure, there are likely better solutions, but I don’t understand intelligent people promoting others not to wear masks. That just doesn’t make sense.

Life isn’t perfect. Neither are masks. But they sure as heck are better than nothing at all. And, at least where I live, it’s now mandatory so our opinions are pointless. Hopefully it won’t get bad enough in your area to justify it, too.

And, thanks for the reminder about touching items. When I go out now I take hand sanitizer. I use it after each stop and before I start to drive my car. It’s important, too. 


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## CO skier (May 17, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> I don’t understand intelligent people promoting others not to wear masks.


It is not " intelligent people promoting others not to wear masks."  It is intelligent people pointing out why masks should be a recommendation for adults to make their own decisions and not mandatory pronouncements that give a false sense of security.









						United States 1960s Slow Motion Woman Stock Footage Video (100% Royalty-free) 10681781 | Shutterstock
					

Get a 24.000 second United States 1960s Slow Motion Woman stock footage at 29.97fps. 4K and HD video ready for any NLE immediately. Choose from a wide range of similar scenes. Video clip id 10681781. Download footage now!




					www.shutterstock.com


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## Ken555 (May 17, 2020)

CO skier said:


> It is not " intelligent people promoting others not to wear masks." It is intelligent people pointing out why masks should be a recommendation for adults to make their own decisions and not mandatory pronouncements that give a false sense of security.



I understand the distinction, I simply believe it is inappropriate. No one wants a false sense of security, but at the moment it is the prevalent belief that masks help. It’s also the requirement where I live. I don’t see the downside to wearing masks even when not required, given the evidence to date, and I am absolutely open to new evidence...short of that, my comments stand. Advising others not to wear masks, and not wearing one yourself, is simply inconsiderate to others. I don’t mean to offend you, but that’s the way I see it. This is truly the wrong issue to worry about when there are so many other issues...such as the continuing inability for all medical staff to obtain proper PPEs months after this pandemic began.







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## davidvel (May 17, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> From your posts, I’m fairly sure you understand the issue. And the point of my post. Yet, you then make the statement that people are not in public who are sneezing or coughing...are you kidding? I’m not in public much at all right now but pre-C19 this was commonplace. Sure, people who cough or sneeze shouldn’t be in public now, but by the time they sneeze what are you going to do? C’mon...again, the point of the mask is to protect others. See my comments about the studies. I’m not going to wait for conclusive proof that we should all wear masks...it just makes sense. Sure, it’s not perfect, and sure, there are likely better solutions, but I don’t understand intelligent people promoting others not to wear masks. That just doesn’t make sense.
> 
> Life isn’t perfect. Neither are masks. But they sure as heck are better than nothing at all. And, at least where I live, it’s now mandatory so our opinions are pointless. Hopefully it won’t get bad enough in your area to justify it, too.
> 
> ...


I don't know what to tell/say to you. I am in public every day.  I have to go to my workplace, I care for an immunocompromised relative and spend time at the medical center, grocery, costco, home depot, routinely.  I use my isopropol spray on EVERYTHING, and my hands everything I touch something. I wear a mask. I am not promoting that people not wear a mask. 

Yes *pre- C19 *people freely sneezed their flu, norovirus, cold-coronvirus, and whatever else without a mask. No one cared and told them to wear a mask. 

My point was since COVID19 I have not been in public and seen anyone cough or sneeze; which is good news as symtompatic people should never be out. That is all that a mask protects "others" against.

You never responded to "When is the last time that someone sneezed or coughed on/near you, with or without a mask? "


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## Ken555 (May 17, 2020)

On a related topic, I’m reading more about face shields. Options are available as part of a hat, etc. This may be the next recommended step.


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## Ken555 (May 17, 2020)

davidvel said:


> You never responded to "When is the last time that someone sneezed or coughed on/near you, with or without a mask? "



I’m not a good person to ask, since I’ve been primarily isolated for a while. But yeah...someone sneezed (and others coughed) near me at the last restaurant I was at in March. 

Glad to learn you are wearing a mask.

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## amycurl (May 17, 2020)

I was in the pharmacy line at Costco a few weeks ago (mid-#quarantimes) and the guy in the couple behind me coughed and sneezed. Not wearing a mask, did not cover with tissue or sleeve, and did not immediately get out sanitizer. I spent two weeks hoping I was at least six feet away. So, yes, people are still sneezing and coughing in public in the middle of a respiratory pandemic. And I am glad that if that man appears again the pharmacy line, this time he will have a mask.


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## bbodb1 (May 17, 2020)

cman said:


> You don't have a "right", "freedom", or "liberty" to increase the risk to others. That's a delusional thought. If you want to increase your risk profile, then go for it. But don't ask us to accept "your" risks.


Then how do you explain that smoking is still allowed?  

I'm jumping in here because I don't wear a mask when I'm out in public but I do take the precautions of extra social distancing and shielding coughs and sneezes.
Science may indeed suggest that isn't enough.  And to be clear, I am NOT saying science is wrong when I choose not to wear a mask.  

But there are many things science tells us we _should_ be doing - and yet we don't for a variety of reasons.  

Do I feel like I am placing others at risk?  No, because as noted above, I am maintaining extra social distance everywhere possible and practical.  
If others choose to encroach upon my space, _they_ are assuming the risk.  

One thing that has amazed me during all this is how people constantly encroach upon other folks personal space when if they had just an iota of patience, the person currently in the space would likely have moved on.


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## bbodb1 (May 17, 2020)

And to the point that people who are not coughing or sneezing should not be allowed out in public......

Can we also ask the ladies who bathe in perfume to stay home?  I'll be fine until I run into the scent wake left behind and then sneeze....


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## geekette (May 17, 2020)

....Then how do you explain that smoking is still allowed?  

tax revenue and maybe big tobacco lobby.

I'm not sure many public spaces remain where smoking is allowed.  

this is kind of the same thing - my right to smoke ends at the tip of your nose.  Your right to be unmasked stops at the tip of my nose.   It's all about shared airspace and the compromising of it.


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## Cornell (May 17, 2020)

Many local governments have put mask orders in place. Does anyone know what metrics will be used to determine when those orders will be lifted?


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## Panina (May 17, 2020)

davidvel said:


> I don't know what to tell/say to you. I am in public every day.  I have to go to my workplace, I care for an immunocompromised relative and spend time at the medical center, grocery, costco, home depot, routinely.  I use my isopropol spray on EVERYTHING, and my hands everything I touch something. I wear a mask. I am not promoting that people not wear a mask.
> 
> Yes *pre- C19 *people freely sneezed their flu, norovirus, cold-coronvirus, and whatever else without a mask. No one cared and told them to wear a mask.
> 
> ...


I can answer that and it is in another post when it happened....I was at the eye doctor and in the waiting room, a man had no mask on and kept coughing and touching everything.  I moved away to a further waiting area and let the receptionist know where I went.


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## WVBaker (May 17, 2020)

A suggestion to those who continue to insist that I should wear a mask.

I spent my adult life protecting others so please forgo all the, you must not care comments. They truly don't come into play. If your concern of germs or contamination from another is that great, perhaps you could locate and buy a N95 mask. That seems to be the best answer to those concerns. Let me direct you to some information that you may find interesting.

"Coming to the aid of those doctors and nurses is a team of scientists from West Virginia University and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, which has developed two alternative face coverings that are as effective at blocking novel coronavirus as those highly-coveted N95 masks."

"You may even have some of the materials to make them: a home furnace filter and a 3D printer."









						WVU Today | WVU team unmasks effective N95 alternatives
					

To reverse the mask shortage in the age of COVID-19, scientists from West Virginia University and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have developed two alternative face coverings that are as effective at blocking novel coronavirus as those highly-coveted N95 masks.



					wvutoday.wvu.edu
				





**Let me add a disclaimer.*
_I'm not disparaging anyone who feels more at ease wearing the mask of their choice. If that makes you feel more comfortable and safe out in public or at home then please, by all means do so. I'm not trying offend anyone. Do whatever you need to do to be at ease._


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## Brett (May 17, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Many local governments have put mask orders in place. Does anyone know what metrics will be used to determine when those orders will be lifted?



I don't but the "many" local governments require employees to wear masks,* not customers*

https://www.littler.com/publication...g-your-face-mask-duties-list-statewide-orders

In Virginia there is not a requirement to wear a mask but some businesses require it - e.g. Costco


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## geekette (May 17, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Many local governments have put mask orders in place. Does anyone know what metrics will be used to determine when those orders will be lifted?


That will vary by the locale, and is a question for whomever issued the order.


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## Makai Guy (May 17, 2020)

Can't we PLEASE put all this wear masks / don't wear masks discussion aside?   Nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion, and I seriously doubt there is anything left to say that hasn't already been said 4.5 gazillion times.


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## Gypsy65 (May 17, 2020)

I think ultimately it will need to come down to the business to mandate a mask or not

As I mentioned earlier. Drs office, busses, or places where there’s really no escape for a mask wearer to go to get some distance from a non wearer would be fair and reasonable 

But in public or places where there’s an entire store or outdoors area to move around in and keep your own distance?  I don’t see the need

If you wear a mask and I don’t then I highly doubt that you would come near me and I would have no reason to approach you

I have been in several stores where I see a masked person. If they continued to walk my way I gave them space to pass. I didn’t talk or engage them 
Their continued  approach showed their comfort level and my non engagement showed my respect for their decision


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## MrockStar (May 17, 2020)

presley said:


> Yesterday, I went my the frozen yogurt shop. We do have mandatory mask wearing in our county. There were a couple older males who were in line behind me, not wearing masks and talking (they didn't arrive together). I thought about this thread and how that was the first time I noticed only males not wearing masks. Usually, basically everyone, male and female, are not wearing masks in public. Anyhow, the part that grossed me out was that each one of them did a big spit on the ground. Why do so many men need to spit on the ground? I feel like I always see that. And, FWIW, it has grossed me out my entire life. I used to dry heave from seeing stuff like that when I was younger.


They,are descendants from frontiers Men from the wild west. Saloons, spitunes, guns,poker players and gunfights. Darwins natural selection of the fittest hasn't fully taken the all out yet.


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## Panina (May 17, 2020)

Know no ones minds will be changed but this reason to me is logical and why I believe in mask wearing.

“Costco finance chief Richard Galanti said. “If it’s the right decision, we help reduce the spread of this terrible virus. If it’s the wrong decision, it’s a relatively small inconvenience.”









						Stores Stress Over How to Handle a Customer Who Won’t Wear a Mask
					

Retail chains, from CVS to 7-Eleven, are being forced to decide whether and how to enforce rules on masks after a string of attacks on clerks and security guards by patrons who refused to cover their faces.




					www.wsj.com


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## dago (May 17, 2020)

geekette said:


> Those threats weren't super contagious.





Gypsy65 said:


> I personally don’t wear a mask unless there is a requirement to do so for me to enter a certain business but I do respect those in fear who do by staying more than the special number  of 6’ away
> Really? Who came up with that number? Crap moves further than 6’
> 
> We all have a right to do what we choose. Why should I wear a mask to make those who do feel better?
> ...


Ditto


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## CalGalTraveler (May 17, 2020)

davidvel said:


> I haven't seen someone sneeze or cough in the last 2 months, and I'm out in public daily. If someone sneezed or coughed and didn't have a mask I'd be pissed, even if it might be allergies.



FWIW..."I will go out today and not sneeze or cough." Says no one.

1) The pharmacy cashier yesterday sneezed right in front of me at the counter. Fortunately, there was plexiglass between us, she had turned, had a mask on and instantly put hand sanitizer on her hands.

2) Asking someone with a non-contagious allergies to stay home is not practical. I have seasonal allergies and at times cough in public to clear my throat. I cannot predict when my cough will come. But I had to cough twice while waiting in the pharmacy. I had a mask on and was more than 20 feet away from others, so hopefully that made people around me not worry.


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## dago (May 17, 2020)

klpca said:


> Not everyone is hooked up by IV to "the media". That is a personal choice made by all sides, friends. Me, no TV news ever (no cable), I read one local paper. I subscribe to one national publication but only read articles that interest me. I am not uninformed. I can easily access source data - in the case of Covid I use this source: https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/cont...mmunity_epidemiology/dc/2019-nCoV/status.html
> 
> I feel competent enough to read and digest information without anyone needing to interpret it for me. I am sure that the majority of citizens can do the same. The others who are glued to their TVs, youtube videos, Facebook "news" - well I can spot them a mile away because the talking points - again, all sides, friends - are all the same. All of the sudden people from all over my life are repeating the same information and talking points so I know that they heard it somewhere.  I am hopeful that the common sense folks are the silent majority.
> 
> I admire those to try to supply factual information to folks who don't want to hear it, but I find it to be an absolute waste of time. I was raised in a family of arguers and dissenters. I have lived an entire lifetime of listening to people who think that medical doctors don't know anything and that everything can be treated by a chiropractor. That a raw food diet can cure my rheumatoid arthritis and that shade vegetables will cause my demise. That saccharine is a healthy alternative to sugar. My common sense told me that those beliefs are wrong, and experience has told me that I am right. You can see why I need to pass on these discussions. I broke my promise to myself to stay out of these discussions because I hate to perpetuate the arguments. So I will bow out now and leave it to the rest of you who find this interesting and invigorating.


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## dago (May 17, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> I grew up in Minot North Dakota until I was 13, then in Michigan until 16. Lots of time spent with cousins on dairy farm in Wisconsin. I am so done with the cold. Not many people enjoy hotter weather


A tad cold in Minot, ND - and quite HOT in the summer - I was there in Aug, 2018 and the temp was 96


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## dago (May 17, 2020)

great thread


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## dago (May 17, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I agree it would be nice if everyone wore masks and had the mindset that wearing a mask protects others and possibly themselves too. Regardless of whether people wear masks or not, shouldn’t the vulnerable people stay home as much as possible until there is a vaccine or herd immunity? I think vulnerable people should stay home because I care about them. Not as a punishment. Not because some people are not wearing masks. There are so many unknowns we do not know so going out for vulnerable people may not be safe (and if vulnerable people go out then they need to be aware of the trade offs). Maybe the mask wearer looks safe but has not washed their hands. OTOH, maybe the non-mask wearer has great hygiene and religiously stays more than 6’ away from everyone else. I do not want my elderly great-aunt or my older father with diabetes starting to go out a lot just because restrictions have been lifted. They are still vulnerable and should stay home as much as possible until it is safe to go out for them or they choose to take the risk (I am okay with people choosing to take risks if they are aware of the trade offs). On the other hand, I think younger people and older people with no underlying conditions should be allowed to go out more. In an ideal world, everyone would be following all safety guidelines but I am not going to get bent out of shape or worry too much about what other people are doing. Ultimately, I believe we can only control ourselves unless we pass laws to regulate. Even then, we know people break the laws and bring harm to others. The good news is that the vast majority of people are following all safety guidelines as much as possible. I am really amazed how society and social norms have changed in just 2 months. This seems like the most rapid adoption of public health guidelines in our history.


Well said


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## TravelTime (May 17, 2020)

Makai Guy said:


> Can't we PLEASE put all this wear masks / don't wear masks discussion aside?   Nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion, and I seriously doubt there is anything left to say that hasn't already been said 4.5 gazillion times.



I generally agree that no one is going to change anyone else’s mind on TUG when people have extreme, locked in views. However, I must say that my views on the coronavirus and safety guidelines have evolved over the past two months. I have been listening to both sides of the mask wearing controversy and I can see both sides. My view initially was skeptical about the efficacy of masks since the health experts flipped on their recommendations mid stream and the science is not strong on masks. However, over time, I came to the conclusion that it is better to wear a mask and be wrong because no harm will be done. If masks actually do help, even a little bit, then I have helped myself and others from getting sick. If it turns out masks do not work, then it was a small sacrifice until more is known about what really works. I try to keep an open mind regarding the science and I change my mind as the evidence evolves.


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## Gypsy65 (May 17, 2020)

Makai Guy said:


> Can't we PLEASE put all this wear masks / don't wear masks discussion aside?   Nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion, and I seriously doubt there is anything left to say that hasn't already been said 4.5 gazillion times.



I don’t think anyone is REALLY trying to make others change their mind. But rather it’s been more of a back and forth as to why one person feels one way and they’re arguments for doing so

Plus
Most people are locked down and this might just be something to do to pass time and maybe learn something 
What harm is a 1000 page thread doing to anyone
If you like it. Read it. If not move on is how this or any other forum or thread should be viewed


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## geist1223 (May 17, 2020)

The mask issue will go away when we have an effective cheap vaccine.  Never.


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## brdweb (May 17, 2020)

Gypsy65 said:


> I don’t think anyone is REALLY trying to make others change their mind. But rather it’s been more of a back and forth as to why one person feels one way and they’re arguments for doing so
> 
> Plus
> Most people are locked down and this might just be something to do to pass time and maybe learn something



Probably half the country isn't actually aren't locked down anymore as of this weekend. There were some states that never even did really. And just to shed some light, just last either Wednesday or Thursday Dr. Fauci was being interviewed and shared some statistics. Care to hazard how what the death rate is (per 100,000) in NYC for those 0-17? 0. For those 18-44? 18.55. And that's out of 100,000 infected, which even in NYC which is the worst spot in the country, the infection rate city-wide is 2,267 per 100,000. Covid is nasty but really only is preying on those ederly or with conditions which make them susceptible. It's exactly why most of the country wants to open back up. With just a little bit of mitigation almost every business can and should open. Masks? Personally I'll wear them indoors just to make frady-cats feel safer. But last night I stood in line for soft-serve and didn't wear one. Line was 6 ft. apart, outside, and the workers were behind glass. Good enough.


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## bluehende (May 17, 2020)

brdweb said:


> Probably half the country isn't actually aren't locked down anymore as of this weekend. There were some states that never even did really. And just to shed some light, just last either Wednesday or Thursday Dr. Fauci was being interviewed and shared some statistics. Care to hazard how what the death rate is (per 100,000) in NYC for those 0-17? 0. For those 18-44? 18.55. And that's out of 100,000 infected, which even in NYC which is the worst spot in the country, the infection rate city-wide is 2,267 per 100,000. Covid is nasty but really only is preying on those ederly or with conditions which make them susceptible. It's exactly why most of the country wants to open back up. With just a little bit of mitigation almost every business can and should open. Masks? Personally I'll wear them indoors just to make frady-cats feel safer. But last night I stood in line for soft-serve and didn't wear one. Line was 6 ft. apart, outside, and the workers were behind glass. Good enough.


  You may want to look at this and change your post.  









						COVID-19 death rates by age group in New York City 2022 | Statista
					

The death rate in New York City for adults aged 75 years and older was around 3,977 per 100,000 people as of October 25, 2022.




					www.statista.com


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## Ken555 (May 18, 2020)

brdweb said:


> frady-cats



smh


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## geekette (May 18, 2020)

I think if we lost a family member, we wouldn't be looking at it as 1 in 100,000.   

People in their 30s are having strokes, a 12 year old has had heart attacks.  

Me, I'm not interested in either of those things, and at the start didn't want pneumonia, which is apparently just the starting point.

All the tots with the rash+ that used to be rare, well, it's not rare now.  Perhaps the death rate of children doesn't yet statistically register but that doesn't mean no kids have died.  

Sure, just the old folks.  Or, just look at it in terms of Rates.  As if that helped the 80k+ that are part of the horrible stats.  Maybe 1/3 of those are the elderly, but, that means the others aren't.


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## bluehende (May 18, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> smh
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


But I agree with him.  With a death total of somewhere around 300 (hard to get a good number as NY puts out data from 40 to 49) we should not lock down those 80 million New Yorker's between the age of 18 and 45


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## bnoble (May 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> With a death total of somewhere around


How many dead people would be enough?


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## bluehende (May 18, 2020)

bnoble said:


> How many dead people would be enough?



I was just quoting the number......no editorializing.....I will edit for the accepted sarcasm emoji.  My bad that it was not obvious referring to a subset of new yorker's that was many times higher than the total of all new yorkers.


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## geekette (May 18, 2020)

bnoble said:


> How many dead people would be enough?


Isn't NY still losing hundreds per day?


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## geekette (May 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> I was just quoting the number......no editorializing.....I will edit for the accepted sarcasm emoji.  My bad that it was not obvious referring to a subset of new yorker's that was many times higher than the total of all new yorkers.


Aren't some areas of the state at least partially re-opening?  I thought I saw that on one of Cuomo's recent updates.


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## bluehende (May 18, 2020)

geekette said:


> Aren't some areas of the state at least partially re-opening?  I thought I saw that on one of Cuomo's recent updates.


Yes some areas will reopen.  He was asking for plans last week to allow those that met the criteria to open as early as this Friday.


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## bnoble (May 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> will edit for the accepted sarcasm emoji.


For the record, I am always suspicious of "I was just joking."


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## bbodb1 (May 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> You may want to look at this and change your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At the same time, given the backlog of cases currently overwhelming coroner's offices in the NYC area, can we *know* these death counts are accurately attributed to the true cause of death with respect to the deceased?  To be clear, I am not suggesting any nefarious motivation here, but it takes time to process deaths, to research and accurately attribute the cause(s) of death.  The cited article has the following heading:

*Deaths rates for COVID-19 in New York City as of May 17, 2020, by age group *

From my perspective, this data - and this claim- are questionable *for the moment*.


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## geekette (May 18, 2020)

Cause of death - I am not sure that all states/counties are handling this the same way.   For some locales, any positive COVID gets COD as COVID, regardless of underlying conditions.

I would like consistency, it would let us all know what any numbers from anywhere actually mean.  I think some bodies await autopsy to confirm COD.  My state has a time or two alerted to "increased death counts" because of catching up on some confirmed CODs, including home deaths, warning that they did not all occur "yesterday".


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## Talent312 (May 18, 2020)

Observations from Lowe's & Home Depot
Yesterday, I went to Lowe's and Home Depot. Both had large signs near their entrances which said, "You must wear a mask to enter." _-- Our local C19 order requires masks in retail stores._

HD had a decent # of customers, and everyone was wearing a mask, but Lowe's was a different story.

Lowe's, OTOH, had many more weekend-warriors. I saw about 8 peep w/o masks... an equal number of men + women. Apparently, there was no one at the door checking people as they came in. I was tempted to challenge them, or ask a store employee to do so. But thinking, this isn't my fight, I just turned around and walked in another direction. Kind'a wimpy for a guy, I guess.


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## bluehende (May 18, 2020)

bnoble said:


> For the record, I am always suspicious of "I was just joking."



Not joking.

Pointing out that with the original post he claimed that 2 million people between the ages of 18 and 44 were infected in a state that has 400,000 infections when you do the math.   That it would also be hard to lock down 80 million people living in a state that has only 19 million there.   My intended sarcasm comes in here as it would be hard to find those other 61 million to lock down.  My first post was a polite suggestion that he may want to change his post as he read a chart wrong.  I allow him to have his own opinion, but I do not think he should be allowed to give facts that are off by a factor of 40.


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## geekette (May 18, 2020)

....But thinking, this isn't my fight, I just turned around and walked in another direction. Kind'a wimpy for a guy, I guess. 

Not wimpy at all.   Based on how many violent incidents in/near retail establishments since this whole thing began, walking away makes perfect sense to me.  One does not know who might not take kindly to something said or done.  Why bother?  Not your monkeys, not your circus.  

Wimpy for a guy ...   as a female, this is not the issue upon which I would estimate your manhood.  I also don't actually go around estimating manhood nor comparing man to man.   Men are men, they are all very different, I have no masculinity scale in my head.  My guess is that most of that is men against men.   I have always found they insult each other's manhood as a matter of course.  I speak for myself only, so I can't be sure there aren't females around dissing manhoodity of any specific male or group of them.


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## Old Hickory (May 18, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Many local governments have put mask orders in place. Does anyone know what metrics will be used to determine when those orders will be lifted?



I know that our county mayor is relying on the county health department who is working closely with the CDC to devise his guidelines and orders.   What metrics?   I don't know but we've never had orders, for the general public, to wear masks.   Private swimming pools opened today but they are under tight restrictions by the health department.


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## SueDonJ (May 18, 2020)

*Moderator Note:*_ The thread's closed. It's generated oh-so-many reports over its short life but the thing that finally did it for me is the "frady-cats" thing. Really?!?! After dealing with the coward nonsense now we've moved on to "frady-cats?!?!"

Keep on insulting those of us who couldn't care less whether mask-wearing fits somewhere on your whacked masculinity barometer. I'm keeping track, now, of the TUGgers who are making these comments (as opposed to only the comments) and will now begin asking Admin to suspend people who use them._


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