# Baby Boomer Retirements Causing Labor Shortage?



## dayooper (Dec 21, 2021)

Data from this study shows that Baby Boomers retiring is the main cause of the labor shortage. 

Link


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## Passepartout (Dec 21, 2021)

dayooper said:


> Data from this study shows that Baby Boomers retiring is the main cause of the labor shortage.


Seems to me that the above 'report' is an opinion piece, not a scientific study. But burrowing a little deeper, OK, people are retiring early. What's allowing this? I think it's the decoupling of employment to healthcare. Pre- ACA- working folks generally got their healthcare through their work. And since the '70's, went on Medicare as soon as they were eligible and could then retire. Since ACA, (Obamacare) their health insurance is portable. Largely paid by tax credits. This HUGE population bubble- yes- the BOOMERS. all started turning 62 in ~2008-09, and is still going on at several thousands a day and will continue for some time. 

Boomers benefitted from the stock boom of the Clinton/Bush I & II years, and retired to travel and not work. They were no longer held captive to their employers' health insurance and don't HAVE TO work.

Now the cost of healthcare has been replaced by the cost of childcare to working people. Fix childcare cost, and the labor shortage will be history.

Jim


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## elaine (Dec 21, 2021)

I don't understand then why restaurants and fast food have such a shortage? I didn't see a ton of 55+ workers there. I see several of places are still drive-thru only. Did those workers move into "better" pharmacy/grocery store jobs with older workers quitting?


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## Passepartout (Dec 21, 2021)

elaine said:


> I don't understand then why restaurants and fast food have such a shortage? I didn't see a ton of 55+ workers there. I see several of places are still drive-thru only. Did those workers move into "better" pharmacy/grocery store jobs with older workers quitting?


Nope. Those working folks are home taking care of their kids instead of paying somebody else to do it.


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## elaine (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Fix childcare cost, and the labor shortage will be history.


I recall when I was having twins with a preK kid. For 3, I'd have had to bring in $50K just for after-tax daycare costs (with 5X/week work and 1.5 hr commute each way). DH (biz owner) and I dropped to PT and hired a nanny 2X/week. We had lower income, but much lower daycare. I was a creative solution that most do not have the ability to do. I cannot imagine getting 3 young babies/kids geared up and out the door everyday to daycare. And the cost is much more of the household budget now. A middle-income family would have a hard time. I'd likely have quit as well.


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## bogey21 (Dec 21, 2021)

Isn't the Government giving people with kids money or tax credits based on number of kids?  Or is this just a proposal.  If it is live, why work...

George


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## SHG (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Seems to me that the above 'report' is an opinion piece, not a scientific study. But burrowing a little deeper, OK, people are retiring early. What's allowing this? I think it's the decoupling of employment to healthcare. Pre- ACA- working folks generally got their healthcare through their work. And since the '70's, went on Medicare as soon as they were eligible and could then retire. Since ACA, (Obamacare) their health insurance is portable. Largely paid by tax credits. This HUGE population bubble- yes- the BOOMERS. all started turning 62 in ~2008-09, and is still going on at several thousands a day and will continue for some time.
> 
> Boomers benefitted from the stock boom of the Clinton/Bush I & II years, and retired to travel and not work. They were no longer held captive to their employers' health insurance and don't HAVE TO work.
> 
> ...


I am not understanding your theory on how healthcare cost is helping people retire sooner. If you ever looked at the ACA cost, for anyone with any reasonable income, ACA cost is prohibitively high. It would not prompt a lot of people to pay that cost and retire, myself included. If your income is low enough to actually get ACA, you probably cant afford to retire. Not sure ACA is the cause here. What am I missing?


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## Passepartout (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> I am not understanding your theory on how healthcare cost is helping people retire sooner. If you ever looked at the ACA cost, for anyone with any reasonable income, ACA cost is prohibitively high. It would not prompt a lot of people to pay that cost and retire, myself included. If your income is low enough to actually get ACA, you probably cant afford to retire. Not sure ACA is the cause here. What am I missing?


We all have our own take on it. You seem concentrated on the $ amount of the insurance. Mine is on the decoupling. If someone has to pay the same amount for coverage, whether or not they are employed and will get tax credit if their income is lower, and they have to pay childcare if they work, there is less incentive to take a $7.50/hr service sector job.


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## SHG (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> We all have our own take on it. You seem concentrated on the $ amount of the insurance. Mine is on the decoupling. If someone has to pay the same amount for coverage, whether or not they are employed and will get tax credit if their income is lower, and they have to pay childcare if they work, there is less incentive to take a $7.50/hr service sector job.



OK, if they are paying the same amount while working, you can be assured their pension will mean less income. So how do they continue to afford the same cost?
Babyboomers do not have kids in daycare? So how do you retire from a job to take a job that pays 7.50??? (By the way, in CA, most min wage jobs are paying ~$15/hr)


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## dayooper (Dec 21, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Isn't the Government giving people with kids money or tax credits based on number of kids?  Or is this just a proposal.  If it is live, why work...
> 
> George



The $300 a month I get for my 1 eligible kid wouldn’t pay for our grocery bill.


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## joestein (Dec 21, 2021)

elaine said:


> I recall when I was having twins with a preK kid. For 3, I'd have had to bring in $50K just for after-tax daycare costs (with 5X/week work and 1.5 hr commute each way). DH (biz owner) and I dropped to PT and hired a nanny 2X/week. We had lower income, but much lower daycare. I was a creative solution that most do not have the ability to do. I cannot imagine getting 3 young babies/kids geared up and out the door everyday to daycare. And the cost is much more of the household budget now. A middle-income family would have a hard time. I'd likely have quit as well.




We had twins the year after we bought our home.   My MIL watched the kids for a year or two and then we got a nanny.   I believe we paid the nanny around $2K+ per month.   I think that we slowly built up a balance in our HELOC as we had trouble making ends meet.   I think our bonuses would go towards paying it down.  But it didn't cover it 100%.

The drop in interest rates/refinancing plus our kids entered first grade and we could use before/after care at under $1K a month really made a huge change to our finances.  Plus we were always making more money each year.


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## joestein (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> We all have our own take on it. You seem concentrated on the $ amount of the insurance. Mine is on the decoupling. If someone has to pay the same amount for coverage, whether or not they are employed and will get tax credit if their income is lower, and they have to pay childcare if they work, there is less incentive to take a $7.50/hr service sector job.



I dont think there are any more $7.5/hr jobs.   My kids make $12/hr.


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## CanuckTravlr (Dec 21, 2021)

joestein said:


> I dont think there are any more $7.5/hr jobs.   My kids make $12/hr.



I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.

When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!


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## SueDonJ (Dec 21, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Isn't the Government giving people with kids money or tax credits based on number of kids?  Or is this just a proposal.  If it is live, why work...
> 
> George





dayooper said:


> The $300 a month I get for my 1 eligible kid wouldn’t pay for our grocery bill.



Yes, the little standard allowances, not tied to low/no income, given to parents of minor children is a token not nearly enough to make a difference that matters.

As for the aid that was released as a result of COVID-19, it wasn't ever enough to convince working people that they could quit their jobs and stay home. That is such a tired and demeaning trope that's grounded in political rhetoric.

But even if COVID-19 aid was occurring on a continuing basis it still would be nowhere near what young families have needed during this difficult time - especially the young families with single parents or two parents working in "essential" positions. They've had to deal with many unscheduled closures of daycare facilities due to positive cases in the facilities and days off for quarantining when the children are exposed outside, plus dealing with finding replacement coverage for their children so they could do their essential jobs. Both of my children and their spouses work in essential positions. Both families have two young children in daycare facilities that have had multiple days away from the facilities but they've still had to pay for the service or give up their places. Luckily they've each been able to count on grandparents on both sides of the families to fill in as needed at no cost, but they are by far the exception. The number of essential workers who have had to pay closed/unavailable daycare facilities AND caregivers providing temporary coverage is staggering - and no standard or COVID-related aid has come anywhere near to alleviating that financial burden which is still sporadically occurring.

That's what the parents of young children are facing. Now add the financial burdens of the parents of school-age children who either had to find and pay for caregivers when their children's schools shut down due to COVID-19 or give up their jobs. No, schools are not supposed to be babysitters, but the fact is there are millions of parents who work only during school hours thus caregivers are not a normal item in their household budgets.

The ramifications of COVID-19 go far beyond the illness itself, and they've only magnified the financial difficulties that families in America face every day because of the little attention that's given to their situations by some government representatives that use them as playing pieces.


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## SmithOp (Dec 21, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Isn't the Government giving people with kids money or tax credits based on number of kids? Or is this just a proposal. If it is live, why work...
> 
> George


There has always been child dependent credits, the difference now is its being paid up front like the incentive payments we received.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## SHG (Dec 21, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.
> 
> When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!


OK, I find this very new and interesting news. I would have not thought this possible. Thanks for sharing this.


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## needvaca (Dec 21, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.
> 
> When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!


I saw that 60 minutes, and it was heart-wrenching and infuriating.  That poor impoverished woman works 60+ hours/week for a crap wage at a chicken processing plant, and Alabama doesn't give her community sewers, so they literally have raw sewage in their backyards.  As a couple doctors noted, it's as bad as a 3rd world country!

It's infuriating that so many in America are full-time working and in poverty and our government allows it.  $15/hour is still below the poverty line in many areas, so $7.25 is truly immoral and a sin.  It's Corporate Welfare to not raise the minimum wage to above poverty level.  It hasn't kept pace with inflation since 1968.
And it's disturbing that many complain about allowing the government to give her $300 to feed her family.  You can't have it both ways- either allow the minimum wage to increase to above the poverty line, or allow government credits to prevent people from starving.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 21, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.
> 
> When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!




I saw that 60 Minutes story on Sunday 12/19 and was absolutely shocked at the INEFFECTIVE Alabama Board of Health Department(s) for knowingly allowing this situation to persist year after year......  It's a situation just inviting diseases to spring up.

If any of us ran a pipe (on top of the soil) out into our yards to discharge our human waste then we would be arrested for unlawful sewage disposal.

Shame on the State for not getting it's act together and start making good decisions on behalf of their population.  If folks can't afford septic systems then maybe it is time for communities to install sewer systems with some of that "Build Back Better" money.




.


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## bogey21 (Dec 21, 2021)

I don't question what you all are saying but answer me this.  Why is there a labor shortage?  Some companies here in Fort Worth are paying up to $20 per hour and there are still many companies having trouble finding help.  My CCRC is paying sign-up and referral bonuses in addition to having increased employee's  pay.  We are particularly  having trouble hiring kitchen and wait staff...

George


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## Passepartout (Dec 21, 2021)

joestein said:


> I dont think there are any more $7.5/hr jobs.   My kids make $12/hr.


Food service where meals are part of the pay and tipped workers here can be paid as low as $2.50/hr. as long as the tips make the minimum $7.25.

I can't imagine making that and having to pay for childcare out of it. No wonder there's a Help Wanted sign on darn near every business hereabouts.


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## Janann (Dec 21, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> I don't question what you all are saying but answer me this.  Why is there a labor shortage?  Some companies here in Fort Worth are paying up to $20 per hour and there are still many companies having trouble finding help.  My CCRC is paying sign-up and referral bonuses in addition to having increased employee's  pay.  We are particularly  having trouble hiring kitchen and wait staff...


There are many things that would need be known before you can figure out why there aren't more takers for $20/hour.  What about:
The ability of the Human Resources department to efficiently get applicants through the system quickly.
Guaranteed allotment of vacation time each year.  I'm guessing that at least a portion of the staff is required to work major holidays.
Consistent work schedule so that child care / elder care can be arranged.
Benefits like medical insurance, dental, etc.
Supervisors who are pleasant to work for.

Any of the above issues could be having an impact on the ability to find workers.


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## SHG (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Food service where meals are part of the pay and tipped workers here can be paid as low as $2.50/hr. as long as the tips make the minimum $7.25.
> 
> I can't imagine making that and having to pay for childcare out of it. No wonder there's a Help Wanted sign on darn near every business hereabouts.


I have never believed that jobs like this are intended to be for people to raise a family on. I look at these jobs as part time jobs for high school or college kids. Just my thought...


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## bogey21 (Dec 21, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Food service where meals are part of the pay and tipped workers here can be paid as low as $2.50/hr. as long as the tips make the minimum $7.25.



My Son used to have a small restaurant in relatively small town Texas.  I think he told me his wait staff was paid $2.36 per hour and usually walked out every night with between  $100 - $150 per day in tips.  Admittedly $500-$750  per week is not a lot after taxes even in small town Texas with kids and today's cost of living...

George


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## needvaca (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> I have never believed that jobs like this are intended to be for people to raise a family on. I look at these jobs as part time jobs for high school or college kids. Just my thought...


That’s a common myth talking point that’s passed around and many people choose to believe rather than getting educated on the topic.

There’s actually 38million poor people, many of those are the working poor, in America. Millions of people actually live on these poverty wages








						A profile of the working poor, 2018 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
					

This report summarizes data on the working poor. The working poor are people who spent at least 27 weeks in the labor force(thatis, working or looking for work) but whose incomes still fell below the official poverty level.




					www.bls.gov


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## Rolltydr (Dec 21, 2021)

joestein said:


> I dont think there are any more $7.5/hr jobs.   My kids make $12/hr.


Ever hear of a state named Alabama? Or Mississippi? Or Arkansas? Or West Virginia? Or Louisiana? Or…?


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## Rolltydr (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> OK, I find this very new and interesting news. I would have not thought this possible. Thanks for sharing this.


Most people in this country have no idea how many people live in these conditions. This is not uncommon, especially in Alabama and Mississippi. And it isn’t just in poor, rural areas. It also happens in poor, urban areas. That isn’t a coincidence. Is it a majority of the population? No. That’s the whole reason it continues to be allowed to happen.


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## SHG (Dec 21, 2021)

needvaca said:


> That’s a common myth talking point that’s passed around and many people choose to believe rather than getting educated on the topic.
> 
> There’s actually 38million working poor people in America. Millions of people actually live on these poverty wages
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand what I am saying (and probably other people as well). This is not intended to be a political position nor a ideal that looks down on people or judges them. I do understand that there are many people who work at these jobs and attempt to live on these wages. I don't believe that this should be a standard that we define for people. We should should strive to educate, train, motivate and get people into full time higher paying jobs where they can make a living and raise a family. Not make the assertion that a part time job at a fast food restaurant should pay $30/hr so a part time employee can raise a family.  I believe we should help people to achieve, but i also believe that people have a role/responsibility to work for this as well. Just my 2 cents worth...


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

elaine said:


> I recall when I was having twins with a preK kid. For 3, I'd have had to bring in $50K just for after-tax daycare costs (with 5X/week work and 1.5 hr commute each way). DH (biz owner) and I dropped to PT and hired a nanny 2X/week. We had lower income, but much lower daycare. I was a creative solution that most do not have the ability to do. I cannot imagine getting 3 young babies/kids geared up and out the door everyday to daycare. And the cost is much more of the household budget now. A middle-income family would have a hard time. I'd likely have quit as well.


This is partly why many young folks are not having or are delaying having kids.   It’s not only not affordable, but as you cite, readying tots for daycare daily is no easy feat.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> I am not understanding your theory on how healthcare cost is helping people retire sooner. If you ever looked at the ACA cost, for anyone with any reasonable income, ACA cost is prohibitively high. It would not prompt a lot of people to pay that cost and retire, myself included. If your income is low enough to actually get ACA, you probably cant afford to retire. Not sure ACA is the cause here. What am I missing?


not missing a thing.   My monthly cost would be 800 last I checked.   That’s another mortgage payment.  I am oldest GenX, sibs are boomers.   I am semi retired, no insurance.


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## Rolltydr (Dec 21, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> I saw that 60 Minutes story on Sunday 12/19 and was absolutely shocked at the INEFFECTIVE Alabama Board of Health Department(s) for knowingly allowing this situation to persist year after year......  It's a situation just inviting diseases to spring up.
> 
> If any of us ran a pipe (on top of the soil) out into our yards to discharge our human waste then we would be arrested for unlawful sewage disposal.
> 
> ...


That money is controlled and distributed by the state. The state is the reason the conditions exist in the first place. You know what the legislature voted to spend Covid money on? New prisons. 
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/01/poli...son-bills-signed-governor-kay-ivey/index.html


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## SueDonJ (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> I think you misunderstand what I am saying (and probably other people as well). This is not intended to be a political position nor a ideal that looks down on people or judges them. I do understand that there are many people who work at these jobs and attempt to live on these wages. I don't believe that this should be a standard that we define for people. *We should should strive to educate, train, motivate and get people into full time higher paying jobs where they can make a living and raise a family.* Not make the assertion that a part time job at a fast food restaurant should pay $30/hr so a part time employee can raise a family.  I believe we should help people to achieve, but i also believe that people have a role/responsibility to work for this as well. Just my 2 cents worth...



But why shouldn't we instead strive to make it standard that of all the millions of jobs in the huge restaurant/food service industry, many should be full-time positions that pay a living wage and provide benefits that support raising a family? Service is a perfectly respectable job, and I'd bet all of us if asked for our favorite staff at our favorite restaurants would pick the longtime workers who've made a career of it over any of the college/high school kids who cycle through.

We, meaning the collective in the United States, consume more meals outside of our homes than what happens in any other country. Just among my small circle I'd say that 40% of the people I know cook their main meal of the day maybe two days a week, and I know three different couples who NEVER cook. The US is also known the world over for our restaurants serving gigantic meals that in some cases are enough to feed a family of four off of one plate, and among those acquaintances I mention none of them take home doggie bags because they're never home to eat them! The waste is astounding. Restaurant owners/menu planners could reduce their actual food costs by reducing the portion sizes and shift that expense to provide better pay/benefits for their service staff, and as long as the quality of the food doesn't suffer then the people who frequent restaurants most often won't change their restaurant habits.

It also doesn't make sense to me that owners can assume the staff will take in a certain amount of tips and so their pay schedules include that assumption. I think that when a member of the waitstaff is not paid that assumed amount by the customer, then the owner should be required to pay it.

I think we agree that fast food is a different animal and perhaps the frontline positions in those eateries are more appropriate for the part-timers and lower wages/benefits, but right now it seems to me that the entire restaurant industry is subject to the same "standards" as fast-food eateries, and that just doesn't make sense.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> I don't question what you all are saying but answer me this.  Why is there a labor shortage?  Some companies here in Fort Worth are paying up to $20 per hour and there are still many companies having trouble finding help.  My CCRC is paying sign-up and referral bonuses in addition to having increased employee's  pay.  We are particularly  having trouble hiring kitchen and wait staff...
> 
> George


a lot of people died or remain debilitated from covid.   Many people are choosing to bundle their larger family units, or what’s left, and someone has to watch the kids.   Maybe it’s been a while since you were in the workforce, but absenteeism gets you fired.   I had to write up people for being 5 minutes late.  three Of those and I had to fire them.  

there is also the possibility of trading up.   I don’t ever want to work in a kitchen again.   Some folks may have made it to nice clean office jobs.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

SHG said:


> I think you misunderstand what I am saying (and probably other people as well). This is not intended to be a political position nor a ideal that looks down on people or judges them. I do understand that there are many people who work at these jobs and attempt to live on these wages. I don't believe that this should be a standard that we define for people. We should should strive to educate, train, motivate and get people into full time higher paying jobs where they can make a living and raise a family. Not make the assertion that a part time job at a fast food restaurant should pay $30/hr so a part time employee can raise a family.  I believe we should help people to achieve, but i also believe that people have a role/responsibility to work for this as well. Just my 2 cents worth...


Then who is going to manage the stores if not promoting from within?  Further, not everyone aspires to a profession.   Some just want jobs they can leave after shift and go live their lives.   I don’t think one size fits all when it comes to what people want out of life.   Teachers are critical to society yet they are not paid enuf nor get the respect they deserve.    My daddy told me, if you are going to clean toilets for a living, make them sparkle, there is no shame in a hard days’ work.   Do not look down on people that make choices that you wouldn’t.   they have their reasons.


eta….   Some of us never wanted kids.   Why do I need a profession for raising kids?   If my expenses are low, and my job covers it, what is anyones beef with it?    I could live on the beach at a primitive surf camp, work to feed myself, and spend  most all my time on the waves.   Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.    Happiness has no universal definition.   Making big bucks is not a goal that everyone shares.   Weren’t the hippies the ones that refused to ‘sell out to The Man’?   Living to work isn’t always a good thing.   Corps will suck the life out of you and forget you are a human being.    There are reasons I retired young, but wealthy was not among them.   I can always make more money but I’ll never get back the evenings and weekends and holidays that my career took.   People get to choose their own lives, and those of their families, over what other people decide Success should be.   Live and let live, people get to choose their paths, where fate doesn’t choose for them.


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## klpca (Dec 21, 2021)

My trendy, boomer husband retired earlier this year.  He was just tired of the grind. Covid exposed the holes in our work/life balance. Everyone could suddenly see the time-cost of commuting and working in an environment of constant interruptions and meaningless meetings. I believe that it gave people time to reflect on whether or not it was worth it. A lot of folks voted with their feet. Some retired, and some chose jobs where they no longer had to deal with a rude and demanding public. I don't think that it should be a surprise that the public facing jobs have been hit particularly hard. Everyone want to be respected in the job that they do and no one deserves to be yelled at if they failed to serve your grande vanilla latte at exactly 140 degrees.

Healthcare and childcare costs have been awful for years. It is a shame that nothing has really improved. I got off of the full time career path a long time ago - and only because of the cost of childcare. After childcare (this was in the early 1990's) I was bringing home less than an extra $500 per month. Why even bother? I dropped down to part time and am still working the exact same position 30+ year later. Part of me hates that I got pigeon-holed, part of me loves the fact that I was home every day to pick up my kids and did scouts and coached soccer along the way. Life is full of trade offs and sometimes it takes a big disruption to see what the costs of your decisions are to your family and to your own health. (I understand that not everyone has that luxury - I am just speaking from my own personal perspective here).


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

Very old song, Take this job and shove it….    Most anyone that has ever held a job has thought this, and I have acted on it.    Seems like there are a lot more Shove It people today.   And why not, when ceos get fired and pocket millions yet middle class and lower has for decades needed a raise.   I don’t need to spend my time helping a c suiter custom fit a yacht.  

recently, McDs guy, harasser, etc, had to give back over one hundred million in severance.     things are disastrously out of whack.    The hoarding at the top is gross and I will not be party to it.    

I also think many are gigging or starting their own business and plan to never again work for a major corp nor asshole boss.    Life is too short for the daily grind to actually grind one down.    

ugh, sorry.   I have a lot to say about the nature of Work and some of life’s scenes replayed for me.   I’m done, I’ll go seek therapy (box wine out of Dixie cup offgrid in the forest).


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## Superchief (Dec 21, 2021)

Prior to Covid, most larger corporations 'encouraged' their middle managers (especially OFWG's) to retire when reaching 55 in order to open positions for younger people. Early retirement packages or offers you couldn't refuse caused many of us to retire prior to when we would have liked to. I actually retired twice. I would have preferred to work another 2-3 years, but really didn't have a choice. It is ironic that both of my companies suffered significant declines after their 'rightsizing' primarily due to many inexperienced people having responsibilities beyond their capabilities. Now these same companies are having trouble finding people to do the job. Marketing professionals in my industries typically worked 50-60 hours per week, but the younger generation doesn't want to let corporations dictate their lives (rightfully so). Big corporations created most of their current turnover and loyalty problems by the way they treated their best managers.


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## stmartinfan (Dec 21, 2021)

While it seems that much of the worker shortage is in lower paying service jobs, large corporations have also created a climate where workers don't hesitate to leave, especially when they've come to see how their lives have changed without commutes, etc.  With their past actions like being quick to layoff people and “restructure”  and elimination of pension plans, etc., companies have created an environment where there is no longer an incentive for company loyalty.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 21, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> But why shouldn't we instead strive to make it standard that of all the millions of jobs in the huge restaurant/food service industry, many should be full-time positions that pay a living wage and provide benefits that support raising a family? Service is a perfectly respectable job, and I'd bet all of us if asked for our favorite staff at our favorite restaurants would pick the longtime workers who've made a career of it over any of the college/high school kids who cycle through.
> 
> We, meaning the collective in the United States, consume more meals outside of our homes than what happens in any other country. Just among my small circle I'd say that 40% of the people I know cook their main meal of the day maybe two days a week, and I know three different couples who NEVER cook. The US is also known the world over for our restaurants serving gigantic meals that in some cases are enough to feed a family of four off of one plate, and among those acquaintances I mention none of them take home doggie bags because they're never home to eat them! The waste is astounding. Restaurant owners/menu planners could reduce their actual food costs by reducing the portion sizes and shift that expense to provide better pay/benefits for their service staff, and as long as the quality of the food doesn't suffer then the people who frequent restaurants most often won't change their restaurant habits.
> 
> ...



But then there are people (like me and my brother) who rarely eat out. Pre-COVID, maybe once a month. Post COVID maybe once every 4-5 months. We cook. We have been cooking for decades. We think nothing of going to Hawaii and cooking the entire time. We aren't part of the "collective".

(Of course our cooking may not be considered "real" cooking - things like canned spaghetti sauce, canned vegetables, store bought bread versus homemade breads, ect. But we still assemble and heat them.  . . )


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 21, 2021)

stmartinfan said:


> While it seems that much of the worker shortage is in lower paying service jobs, large corporations have also created a climate where workers don't hesitate to leave, especially when they've come to see how their lives have changed without commutes, etc.  With their past actions like being quick to layoff people and “restructure”  and elimination of pension plans, etc., companies have created an environment where there is no longer an incentive for company loyalty.



Yes, it was a corporate management move to make the "fixed" labor costs into variable labor costs. Now they are seeing the "squeeze" of variable labor costs, when there isn't a surplus of available labor. 

Be careful of what you wish for, you might get it. . . .


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

stmartinfan said:


> While it seems that much of the worker shortage is in lower paying service jobs, large corporations have also created a climate where workers don't hesitate to leave, especially when they've come to see how their lives have changed without commutes, etc.  With their past actions like being quick to layoff people and “restructure”  and elimination of pension plans, etc., companies have created an environment where there is no longer an incentive for company loyalty.


Pounding the like button.    A company’s loyalty to their workers vaporized decades ago.   Idealistic workers stayed loyal too long.   No more.    Own the company stock, don’t let any of them own you.   I have stock in over 70 companies.   Replaced one paycheck with a bunch more.    Smaller, but sufficient.   I think lots of us ratcheted down our expenses to cut reliance on those who use and abuse us.    Crap, my stress fracture got triggered….


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> The US is also known the world over for our restaurants serving gigantic meals that in some cases are enough to feed a family of four off of one plate, and among those acquaintances I mention none of them take home doggie bags because they're never home to eat them! The waste is astounding. Restaurant owners/menu planners could reduce their actual food costs by reducing the portion sizes and shift that expense to provide better pay/benefits for their service staff, and as long as the quality of the food doesn't suffer then the people who frequent restaurants most often won't change their restaurant habits.


Do you really ever see this happening? If restaurants choose to reduce portion sizes, won't the restaurant going public expect lower prices instead? It is hard enough already to see a value in most restaurant meals. Prices are rising so fast that eating out is more of a luxury today than ever before. Food costs make up only about 25% of a restaurants expenses. Could that be cut in half without an issue to quality? Most costs are in actual labor (those dishwashers, cooks and managers that get paid paid standard minimum wage or far above. Real estate costs (building leases) are also a significant percentage of expenses for a restaurant. Margins in restaurants are so thin, perhaps less than $1 a plate, that even a small adjustment can have dire consequences.


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## Superchief (Dec 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Do you really ever see this happening? If restaurants choose to reduce portion sizes, won't the restaurant going public expect lower prices instead? It is hard enough already to see a value in most restaurant meals. Prices are rising so fast that eating out is more of a luxury today than ever before. Food costs make up only about 25% of a restauants expenses. Could that be cut in half without an issue to quality? Most costs are in actual labor (those dishwashers, cooks and managers that get paid paid standard minimum wage or far above. Real estate costs (building leases) are also a significant percentage of expenses for a restaurant. Margins in restaurants are so thin, perhaps less than $1 a plate, that even a small adjustment can have dire consequences.


Franchise fees and corporate charges (similar to MVC management fees) can also add significant costs for chains. Grubhub and other delivery services also take a large portion of restaurants revenues. This is why I prefer eating in local businesses and picking up my own carry-out food.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 21, 2021)

geekette said:


> Pounding the like button.    A company’s loyalty to their workers vaporized decades ago.   Idealistic workers stayed loyal too long.   No more.    Own the company stock, don’t let any of them own you.   I have stock in over 70 companies.   Replaced one paycheck with a bunch more.    Smaller, but sufficient.   I think lots of us ratcheted down our expenses to cut reliance on those who use and abuse us.    Crap, my stress fracture got triggered….



Peace be unto you, sister. You are past the pain. Find your happy place and smile.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2021)

I think as a country we really need to start looking at how to tackle poverty in the country. Over the past several decades the number of people on some form of government assistance has been increasing. Is it because there are more poor people, or because the social safety net getting wider and thus catching more people in it. Trillions of dollars (estimated at 15 trillion) have been spent by governments to fight poverty since the 1960s without any significant reduction in poverty rates in the country. It would seem we could have half the amount of US government debt and still be in the same place today. Perhaps we need to consider that spending even more money isn't going to solve the issue or really make it any better for those in poverty?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2021)

geekette said:


> Pounding the like button.    A company’s loyalty to their workers vaporized decades ago.   Idealistic workers stayed loyal too long.   No more.    Own the company stock, don’t let any of them own you.   I have stock in over 70 companies.   Replaced one paycheck with a bunch more.    Smaller, but sufficient.   I think lots of us ratcheted down our expenses to cut reliance on those who use and abuse us.    Crap, my stress fracture got triggered….


By owning the company stock, aren't you just perpetuating the problem of demanding growth at the expense of the worker?


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But then there are people (like me and my brother) who rarely eat out. Pre-COVID, maybe once a month. Post COVID maybe once every 4-5 months. We cook. We have been cooking for decades. We think nothing of going to Hawaii and cooking the entire time. We aren't part of the "collective".
> 
> (Of course our cooking may not be considered "real" cooking - things like canned spaghetti sauce, canned vegetables, store bought bread versus homemade breads, ect. But we still assemble and heat them.  . . )


You and me both.    I enjoy it.   I especially enjoy the time and money savings.    Time sharing is an opportunity to cook in someone else’s kitchen, and I like that.   Especially good to hunt down local ingredients.  

Food cost is the most pervasive yet most controllable cost during our lives.    I am much better off having spent my money on ingredients vs service.   I don’t care what other people spend their money on, though.   Live how you want, spend how you will.    

I closed on property today with large enuf cleared sunny spot to be quite optimistic on fresh eats right out my door.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> I think as a country we really need to start looking at how to tackle poverty in the country. Over the past several decades the number of people on some form of government assistance has been increasing. Is it because there are more poor people, or because the social safety net getting wider and thus catching more people in it. Trillions of dollars (estimated at 15 trillion) have been spent by governments to fight poverty since the 1960s without any significant reduction in poverty rates in the country. It would seem we could have half the amount of US government debt and still be in the same place today. Perhaps we need to consider that spending even more money isn't going to solve the issue or really make it any better for those in poverty?


Min wage stuck in the 60s is a large part of the problem.    Workers got starved while execs got fat.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Do you really ever see this happening? If restaurants choose to reduce portion sizes, won't the restaurant going public expect lower prices instead? It is hard enough already to see a value in most restaurant meals. Prices are rising so fast that eating out is more of a luxury today than ever before. Food costs make up only about 25% of a restaurants expenses. Could that be cut in half without an issue to quality? Most costs are in actual labor (those dishwashers, cooks and managers that get paid paid standard minimum wage or far above. Real estate costs (building leases) are also a significant percentage of expenses for a restaurant. Margins in restaurants are so thin, perhaps less than $1 a plate, that even a small adjustment can have dire consequences.



I don't see it happening anytime soon, and certainly not as the only overhaul in the industry. But it's going to take a whole lot of thinking out of the box if ever the unfair salary/benefits schedules are corrected to fairly compensate the workers, and hope springs eternal. 

No doubt you're right about many restaurant-goers wanting to see lower prices if lesser portions are served. But of the people I know who eat out much more than they eat in, they agree that portions are too large and even though they don't take doggie bags home, they still hate to see the waste that's being left on their plates. Paying the same amount of money for the same amount of food that they're eating now wouldn't change their habits, especially if it helps to do away with the part of the experience that leaves them feeling that their waitstaff's compensation is as directly dependent on them as it is on the restaurant owners.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> By owning the company stock, aren't you just perpetuating the problem of demanding growth at the expense of the worker?


Nope.  i demand nothing.    I do, however, vote my tiny proxies especially when exec comp is on the ballot.  

I also try to not own companies that aren’t good to their employees or their communities.   Walmart is one example.   I want to support good stewards.  

what would change if I didn’t own stock?   I’d be poorer but no company will have done anything different.   Don’t blame me.   I’m a cog in the wheel.  No monkey wrench.    Not a lawmaker, overseer,regulator.   None of that.   Regular common person with zero power except over myself.

what I’m doing is getting my payday after helping corp America succeed with my toil.   I want a share of profits that I never got as an employee.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 21, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But then there are people (like me and my brother) who rarely eat out. Pre-COVID, maybe once a month. Post COVID maybe once every 4-5 months. We cook. We have been cooking for decades. We think nothing of going to Hawaii and cooking the entire time. We aren't part of the "collective".
> 
> (Of course our cooking may not be considered "real" cooking - things like canned spaghetti sauce, canned vegetables, store bought bread versus homemade breads, ect. But we still assemble and heat them.  . . )



Same here, we very rarely eat in restaurants, and we enjoy the process of cooking our meals (which is one of the reasons we use timeshares for vacationing.) During COVID we've ordered in more often than usual because we're trying to help our favorite restaurants stay in business but even that is only a few times a month. Among our family/friends, though, pretty much everyone we know goes out at least occasionally, and some much more frequently.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2021)

geekette said:


> Nope. i demand nothing. I do, however, vote my tiny proxies especially when exec comp is on the ballot.
> 
> I also try to not own companies that aren’t good to their employees or their communities. Walmart is one example. I want to support good stewards.
> 
> ...


But you are expecting to see growth in the price of stock and get paid dividends? One could say that all of that comes out of the employee pocket. Certainly a company saw good growth because they were able to attract a top CEO who drove the company to places it couldn't have otherwise. A CEO that perhaps earns a few million a year isn't going to add much to the hourly salary of their hundred thousand or so employees if that CEO all of a sudden got paid $0.

Certainly you are just a cog in the wheel, but just looking for you to be philosophically consistent in your disdain for corporate America. Are you willing to take lower or zero dividends if the company pays their employees more money and better benefits. The CEOs salary won't even come close to what you hope to achieve.


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## geekette (Dec 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> But you are expecting to see growth in the price of stock and get paid dividends? One could say that all of that comes out of the employee pocket. Certainly a company saw good growth because they were able to attract a top CEO who drove the company to places it couldn't have otherwise. A CEO that perhaps earns a few million a year isn't going to add much to the hourly salary of their hundred thousand or so employees if that CEO all of a sudden got paid $0.
> 
> Certainly you are just a cog in the wheel, but just looking for you to be philosophically consistent in your disdain for corporate America. Are you willing to take lower or zero dividends if the company pays their employees more money and better benefits. The CEOs salary won't even come close to what you hope to achieve.


philosophically consistent?   Disdain?  

one could say anything.   Like, why should it come from worker pockets, when they are the ones making the widgets that when sold make the profit?   Why isn’t the worker appreciated and rewarded, like the top dogs are?   Why aren’t employee bonuses a thing?   Why are raises less than 2% for worker bees but much much more than that for higher rungs?   It’s backwards.

look, I parlayed my education and business interest into a way to avoid becoming old and poor.   When I was 25 I had no idea how the workplace would kick me around.    I did know that young and poor sucked.   I am consistent with the plan I hatched decades ago.   I don’t have to fit your definitions for my investing.

I don’t care about stock price, have never followed stock prices.     I was an avid annual report reader, day to day stuff isnt of interest.    I have mostly widow and orphan stocks, companies that I expect to outlive me.    I own a lot of food stocks, utilities, railroads and general consumer goods.   I don’t have to watch them make the sausage and care about what stock analysts think.    They just need to continue to be profitable.   I don’t have much say nI how that happens.   I didnt as an employee either.

not sure what you’re looking for from me.    I just think ceos really got a gig going by convincing others they are worth so much.   Wall Street and big biz are the takers from the makers.


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## bogey21 (Dec 22, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Real estate costs (building leases) are also a significant percentage of expenses for a restaurant.



This is what drove my Son out of the restaurant business.  It got to the point that he felt he was working for the landlord...

George


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.
> 
> When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!


I guess it is possible - but do they really exist?   I dont know.  BUT, with the labor shortage, I think that low end wages have risen a lot.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 22, 2021)

My DS works for Kroger in Idaho to help pay for college. A year ago his wage was $7.50/hour, then $9.00 earlier this year, now $15/hour. They have been having a hard time attracting staff and people ghosting jobs so raised wages. Many say it's because they are competing with Amazon at $15/hour. Good to see market forces driving change instead of government regulation which doesn't always work out so well.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> But why shouldn't we instead strive to make it standard that of all the millions of jobs in the huge restaurant/food service industry, many should be full-time positions that pay a living wage and provide benefits that support raising a family? Service is a perfectly respectable job, and I'd bet all of us if asked for our favorite staff at our favorite restaurants would pick the longtime workers who've made a career of it over any of the college/high school kids who cycle through.
> 
> We, meaning the collective in the United States, consume more meals outside of our homes than what happens in any other country. Just among my small circle I'd say that 40% of the people I know cook their main meal of the day maybe two days a week, and I know three different couples who NEVER cook. The US is also known the world over for our restaurants serving gigantic meals that in some cases are enough to feed a family of four off of one plate, and among those acquaintances I mention none of them take home doggie bags because they're never home to eat them! The waste is astounding. Restaurant owners/menu planners could reduce their actual food costs by reducing the portion sizes and shift that expense to provide better pay/benefits for their service staff, and as long as the quality of the food doesn't suffer then the people who frequent restaurants most often won't change their restaurant habits.
> 
> ...



A couple of comments......

Just because you and your circle of friends eat out most the time, that doesn't mean the rest of the country does.     We rarely eat out unless we are socializing, celebrating or traveling.  But just to go to local restaurants because I am too busy or lazy to cook?  No thanks.  That is called - go to food emporium and pick up a pound of rare roast beef, order a pizza or some other food.

Also... if you added the cost of higher labor and benefits to the prices, you would have a significant increase.  Regular diners would dine less.  Wouldn't affect me, as I go out for socialization or travel.  But it would hurt the restaurants as there were less customers, which would lead to closing of businesses.

Furthermore, most of the waitstaff that would fall under that 'favorite' category you discussed would prefer cash tips to increased salary.   A good server can make a lot of off the books cash.   Maybe not at Friendly's or Denny's, but a good server wouldn't work there.  When I was back in public accounting back in the 90s, I had a co-worker who was a real go getter and worker as a server at a local diner on the weekend to make extra money.    He would come back every monday and brag about how he made $300-$500 in cash during the weekend.   He would say that 95% of the servers at the restaurant had no idea how to be a server.   His main goal was to make them as happy as possible so that he got the biggest tip as possible.  If a customer complained about food, he would take care of it ALWAYS with a big smile telling them he was happy to take of this and offering them some more bread or a drink refill while they had to wait, regardless of how the customer behaved.   Most of the other servers couldn't understand why he made as much on the weekend as they made all week.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

geekette said:


> Weren’t the hippies the ones that refused to ‘sell out to The Man’?



The hippies were full of sh*t.   They and the much of their generation are the ones who brought us this inequality, corporate mergers, mass layoffs on profitable businesses and many of financial problems of today.   Their greed is never ending.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

geekette said:


> Pounding the like button.    A company’s loyalty to their workers vaporized decades ago.   Idealistic workers stayed loyal too long.   No more.    Own the company stock, don’t let any of them own you.   I have stock in over 70 companies.   Replaced one paycheck with a bunch more.    Smaller, but sufficient.   I think lots of us ratcheted down our expenses to cut reliance on those who use and abuse us.    Crap, my stress fracture got triggered….


I feel loyalty to my firm because of the way I have been treated during the 21 years I have been there.   My firm has a tremendous amount of people who have been there 20+ or 30+ years.   A lot of people don't retire until late 60s or early 70s - I am talking about people who could afford to retire earlier.  I feel that I could easily work until I am 70 there - the only negative is the commute (maybe that will change going forward).


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> I think as a country we really need to start looking at how to tackle poverty in the country. Over the past several decades the number of people on some form of government assistance has been increasing. Is it because there are more poor people, or because the social safety net getting wider and thus catching more people in it. Trillions of dollars (estimated at 15 trillion) have been spent by governments to fight poverty since the 1960s without any significant reduction in poverty rates in the country. It would seem we could have half the amount of US government debt and still be in the same place today. Perhaps we need to consider that spending even more money isn't going to solve the issue or really make it any better for those in poverty?



It makes it worse.    Generations growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self.    The worst thing to ever happen to poor people was welfare - it stole their motivation.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> It makes it worse.    Generations growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self.    The worst thing to ever happen to poor people was welfare - it stole their motivation.



This is politically-motivated drivel.

It's hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you have no boots, and the disdain and derision heaped on people who have no choice but to rely on public aid are one of the major reasons that they don't trust that the system can work as well for them as it does for those born in more fortunate circumstances. (Here I'm not talking about those born with silver spoons in their mouths, I'm talking about those who might be only one step above the debilitating poverty levels that we accept in this country.)

Those who have no choice but to rely on public aid are there because all of the avenues that could lead them out of the poverty pipeline are for all practical purposes closed to them:

- Healthcare that ensures healthy children and improves the quality of life for all, including dental and vision coverage that would make their appearances presentable in the corporate world? Severely limited and/or cost-prohibitive to those living in impoverished communities, which leads to chronic illnesses that impede a person's ability to work.

-Education? Far fewer resources are distributed to primary schools inside the impoverished communities than outside, which unnaturally leads to disparity that makes higher-education and thus opportunity in the workforce a higher reach than for those outside.

- Family services such as daycare and adjustable work schedules that allow parents to hold even part-time jobs without depleting the small paychecks being earned in service-industry jobs? Again, severely limited and/or cost-prohibitive.

- When the comparatively fewer do manage to overcome the hurdles, obtain a decent education and land a job that allows them to pay for the necessities of keeping that job, transportation becomes a significant cost factor on top of all the others.

I do agree with you that poverty is a vicious circle, but I completely disagree with your insulting insinuation that the overwhelming majority of people born into and living in impoverished communities are holding themselves down deliberately. Living on public aid is HARD.


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## Brett (Dec 22, 2021)

geekette said:


> philosophically consistent?   Disdain?
> 
> one could say anything.   Like, why should it come from worker pockets, when they are the ones making the widgets that when sold make the profit?   Why isn’t the worker appreciated and rewarded, like the top dogs are?   Why aren’t employee bonuses a thing?   Why are raises less than 2% for worker bees but much much more than that for higher rungs?   It’s backwards.
> 
> ...




I parlayed my education, business interests and work experience to become old and rich ...
maybe semi-rich,    .....  or moderately well-off


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## Brett (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> The hippies were full of sh*t.   They and the much of their generation are the ones who brought us this inequality, corporate mergers, mass layoffs on profitable businesses and many of financial problems of today.   Their greed is never ending.



wow -  hippies caused corporate mergers and mass layoffs and today's financial "problems"  ?

all I remember are the tie dye T shirts


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## SueDonJ (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> A couple of comments......
> 
> Just because you and your circle of friends eat out most the time, that doesn't mean the rest of the country does.     We rarely eat out unless we are socializing, celebrating or traveling.  But just to go to local restaurants because I am too busy or lazy to cook?  No thanks.  That is called - go to food emporium and pick up a pound of rare roast beef, order a pizza or some other food.
> 
> ...



Didn't mean to give you the impression that I eat out as often as those I know - I don't. In fact I don't eat out at all. And I said nothing about raising the prices in restaurants, only that among those I know who do eat out more often than in, they wouldn't change their restaurant schedules if the prices remained the same for smaller-portioned meals. They don't like seeing how much food they're wasting, either. They also tell me that they'd much prefer knowing that their waitstaff is adequately compensated through wages than through tips and wouldn't change their habits if the expected tips compensation was built into the menu prices, resulting in the same money coming out of their wallets but without the earnings disparity based on whether the waitstaff is lucky enough to serve decent tippers (which is as much a factor in tips earnings as whether or not the waitstaff hustles enough to satisfy the customers, and which is why IMO tip-pooling should be the industry norm.)


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## easyrider (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> I feel loyalty to my firm because of the way I have been treated during the 21 years I have been there.   My firm has a tremendous amount of people who have been there 20+ or 30+ years.   A lot of people don't retire until late 60s or early 70s - I am talking about people who could afford to retire earlier.  I feel that I could easily work until I am 70 there - the only negative is the commute (maybe that will change going forward).



I have had many business acquaintances that worked for large corporations in capacities thought by me to solid. Very few made it to 60 as their jobs were eliminated or younger management made the job unbearable. This is still happening today. 

Bill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackke...pushed-out-of-the-job-market/?sh=7e0da0838e91


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## easyrider (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> It makes it worse.    Generations growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self.    The worst thing to ever happen to poor people was welfare - it stole their motivation.



Welfare isn't the problem so much as the rules involving welfare that require a single parent in the home to qualify. Many of these well intentioned safety net programs are detrimental to kids as studies show many benefits to having a two parent family. These programs didn't really steal motivation,,imo, they steal opportunity because they leave the kids father-less for the most part. I would say that for some this might be a good thing but for the vast majority it really isn't. 

Bill


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> This is politically-motivated drivel.
> 
> It's hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you have no boots, and the disdain and derision heaped on people who have no choice but to rely on public aid are one of the major reasons that they don't trust that the system can work as well for them as it does for those born in more fortunate circumstances. (Here I'm not talking about those born with silver spoons in their mouths, I'm talking about those who might be only one step above the debilitating poverty levels that we accept in this country.)
> 
> ...



Can you prove anything you are saying?   Where is your backup?

According to you.... they are all victims.

Education -   SO MUCH MORE money and resources are poured in low-income areas and populace.   NJ has the top public schools in the nation.  A study awhile back showed that most of the towns in my area spent around $14K per child on education.   However, the Camden, which is crime ridden pit of a town - full of poor minorities, spend over $30K per student.  more than double.  Moreover, their schooling was 100% funded by the state - based upon whatever budget they came up with, whereas most town were funded mostly by local taxes and are watching their dollars.   My town funds over 85% of our schooling directly from local taxes.   Yet, the students in our town excelled while the students in Camdem continued to fail.   It is not about money (to a point) - it is about parent involvement.    Plus my state sends anybody who make under a certain amount to college for free plus provides extra money for living expenses.

If you read:  Coming Apart: The State of While America, 1960 -2010 by Charles Murray, he follows two towns over 50 years - a poor white town and rich white town and see how they have been affected over that time through statistics.  One of the many things he found was that welfare had a profound negative effect on the work ethic of the men of the poor town.   Before welfare, a menial white male worker was shown approval/appreciation from his community for going to work each day and trying to raise his family.  After welfare, that same person would see others/face ridicule from other low-income white makes who didn't work and collected welfare.   There was no motivation for the hard working person to continue to work.

Joe


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## Superchief (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> I feel loyalty to my firm because of the way I have been treated during the 21 years I have been there.   My firm has a tremendous amount of people who have been there 20+ or 30+ years.   A lot of people don't retire until late 60s or early 70s - I am talking about people who could afford to retire earlier.  I feel that I could easily work until I am 70 there - the only negative is the commute (maybe that will change going forward).


That is how my last company was when I first joined. They were a medium sized food company who had increased sales in 25 years straight. It was a great place to work with a lot of dedicated and experienced people. We were successful because we were flexible and prioritized customers. When our CEO retired, they brought in an executive from a major food company whose sales had declined for several years. He brought six sigma and his cronies and forced out most of our previous department heads. They fired many customers because their business didn't match our mass production standards. Sales declined in his second year (prior to Covid) and have never recovered. 

I actually think there is a reverse correlation between executive compensation and a corporation's success. Many of the highest paid CEO's are on each other's boards and go on to other positions after milking the companies they were at last.


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## am1 (Dec 22, 2021)

needvaca said:


> That’s a common myth talking point that’s passed around and many people choose to believe rather than getting educated on the topic.
> 
> There’s actually 38million poor people, many of those are the working poor, in America. Millions of people actually live on these poverty wages
> 
> ...



“Poor” is all relative.  Do they have smartphones and big flat screens?  I can show you what poor really means.


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## geist1223 (Dec 22, 2021)

Topic way off course and becomimg political.  Perhaps all can simply move on. I will say my Dad only graduated from High School and Mom left High School at 15. For my Mom's Family and her up bringing think Grapes of Wrath. Of the 4 Boys 3 of us graduated from College. Two with Post-graduate Decrees. The non-college graduate owned a Pig Farm in Denmark for a long time.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

Superchief said:


> That is how my last company was when I first joined. They were a medium sized food company who had increased sales in 25 years straight. It was a great place to work with a lot of dedicated and experienced people. We were successful because we were flexible and prioritized customers. When our CEO retired, they brought in an executive from a major food company whose sales had declined for several years. He brought six sigma and his cronies and forced out most of our previous department heads. They fired many customers because their business didn't match our mass production standards. Sales declined in his second year (prior to Covid) and have never recovered.
> 
> I actually think there is a reverse correlation between executive compensation and a corporation's success. Many of the highest paid CEO's are on each other's boards and go on to other positions after milking the companies they were at last.



I happen to work for a private sole proprietorship.   The founder is very sick, but his son who is in his 40s has been working there for over 10 years and has been taking over more of the reins each year for the last 4 or 5 years.    You never know what happens, but I feel pretty comfortable that we will have a stable transition.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

am1 said:


> “Poor” is all relative.  Do they have smartphones and big flat screens?  I can show you what poor really means.



Something that people in this country tend to forget.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> Can you prove anything you are saying?   Where is your backup?
> 
> According to you.... they are all victims.
> 
> ...



Yes, I believe people in impoverished communities are all victims of circumstance.

Spending-per-student is a false indicator when you consider that the needs of the communities/facilities are disparate. Take a ride through those impoverished communities and look at the school buildings themselves - if the starting point is that the infrastructure in the impoverished community is of lesser quality than outside, then immediately the direct-to-student funds are reduced by the amount that has to be devoted to bringing the infrastructure/buildings up to the same quality. Consider then the disparate distribution of supplies, which in many cases results again in the direct-to-student funds being reduced by the amount required to equalize the impoverished communities with those outside. And on top of all that, the impoverished communities have far less outside-school resources that allow families the luxury (and yes, in those communities it's a luxury in short supply) of being able to nurture their children's education.

I'm a product of public aid (due to my dad - the family breadwinner - contracting TB, being hospitalized for a year and remaining totally disabled by it for the rest of his life)  and a product of a major city public school system (Boston in the 70's when forced busing was implemented to combat segregation that had resulted in subpar/unequal resources devoted to the city's poorer neighborhoods.) I don't need to read any books or listen to anyone who's not intimately familiar with the challenges, to know that the experiences of all those living them are far more valuable in the discussions of how to overcome them.

It's interesting to me how you use "full of minorities" to describe impoverished communities, rather than the income inequality that's far more an indicator. It's also interesting how you cite a book that chronicles the disparity among only rich and poor white men, without regard for the fact that men in the minority community start from a rung on the ladder that's lower even than the most-impoverished white man. I'm not sure what it means, but it's interesting.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> Something that people in this country tend to forget.



Well, looking back on when my mom had to fight for every dollar of aid that she could get to keep me and my ten siblings - ages one to fourteen - together in our mortgaged home and fed all the while that my dad was hospitalized and then could not work, I'm glad that people who had no clue what it was like to live in those circumstances weren't allowed to come and take away our telephone and the TV.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, I believe people in impoverished communities are all victims of circumstance.
> 
> Spending-per-student is a false indicator when you consider that the needs of the communities/facilities are disparate. Take a ride through those impoverished communities and look at the school buildings themselves - if the starting point is that the infrastructure in the impoverished community is of lesser quality than outside, then immediately the direct-to-student funds are reduced by the amount that has to be devoted to bringing the infrastructure/buildings up to the same quality. Consider then the disparate distribution of supplies, which in many cases results again in the direct-to-student funds being reduced by the amount required to equalize the impoverished communities with those outside. And on top of all that, the impoverished communities have far less outside-school resources that allow families the luxury (and yes, in those communities it's a luxury in short supply) of being able to nurture their children's education.
> 
> ...



First the book compares only white because the author wanted to take race out of it.   Towards the end of the book he discussed that these statistics are applicable to all races, but he didn't want racism to overshadow the points he was making.

Second - dismissing the amount of spending per student is ridiculous.   That is the AMOUNT SPENT PER STUDENT.  Even if some of it goes towards other aspects of their education, it is still over double.    Plus there are tons of programs and outside aid that are made available.  Mark Zuckerberg gave $100 million dollars to Newark for their educational system.  You know how much of a difference it made.  ZERO.    It is not about money over a basic amount - it is about parents who are not involved in their children's education.

And that town is full of poor minorities and is on the top 10 most dangerous towns in America.   Just because I state facts doesn't make me a racist.  Even though that is what you are presuming.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 22, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, I believe people in impoverished communities are all victims of circumstance.
> 
> Spending-per-student is a false indicator when you consider that the needs of the communities/facilities are disparate. Take a ride through those impoverished communities and look at the school buildings themselves - if the starting point is that the infrastructure in the impoverished community is of lesser quality than outside, then immediately the direct-to-student funds are reduced by the amount that has to be devoted to bringing the infrastructure/buildings up to the same quality. Consider then the disparate distribution of supplies, which in many cases results again in the direct-to-student funds being reduced by the amount required to equalize the impoverished communities with those outside. And on top of all that, the impoverished communities have far less outside-school resources that allow families the luxury (and yes, in those communities it's a luxury in short supply) of being able to nurture their children's education.
> 
> ...



I came from a similar background, Sue. I came to a different conclusion. Motivation will get you out of these circumstances. But you can't dole out motivation. I couldn't motivate my peers when/where I grew up. Most of them merely wanted enough to get by, beer, softball, an "old lady", and a roof over their head. (The neighborhood I grew up in was on the "wrong side of the tracks" in a town where that meant something (San Antonio, Texas). My neighborhood was "blockbusted" with the 235 program at age 11. K-11th grade in the 3rd poorest school district in Texas.)

_No es bueno, chica._


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> Well, looking back on when my mom had to fight for every dollar of aid that she could get to keep me and my ten siblings - ages one to fourteen - together in our mortgaged home and fed all the while that my dad was hospitalized and then could not work, I'm glad that people who had no clue what it was like to live in those circumstances weren't allowed to come and take away our telephone and the TV.



Actually, my mother was widowed - she had to work for the first time in her life to take care of her kids.   But she did what she had to.   Eventually she remarried and I came from the new marriage.  However, we were fairly poor when I was very young.  Though my dad did better once I became a teenager.  Living in a tiny apartment with 4 kids and 1 bathroom and an incredibly tiny kitchen/eating area.  I slept on a cot in the hallway until I was around 8 or 9.   But we all got through and most of us are doing pretty well as adults.

My wife father walked out on her family when she was only 11 and her sister 8.  He emptied out all the bank accounts and didn't pay any support.  My MIL had a nervous breakdown and stopped eating.  My wife started working weekends at the Aquaduct Flea Market.  She was chopping onions all day for a food concession.   She would come home with burning cuts after getting paid $20/day.   However, they needed it.   She eventually got some better jobs ending up at an AP dept of local business by the time she was 15.   Got her sister a job there when she got old enough.   Those jobs funded food and clothing they had.   Most of their nutrition came from free school lunch and breakfast.    They both turned out to be pretty successful.

I guess it would have been easier to be a victim.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> First the book compares only white because the author wanted to take race out of it.   Towards the end of the book he discussed that these statistics are applicable to all races, but he didn't want racism to overshadow the points he was making.
> 
> Second - dismissing the amount of spending per student is ridiculous.   That is the AMOUNT SPENT PER STUDENT.  Even if some of it goes towards other aspects of their education, it is still over double.    Plus there are tons of programs and outside aid that are made available.  Mark Zuckerberg gave $100 million dollars to Newark for their educational system.  You know how much of a difference it made.  ZERO.    It is not about money over a basic amount - it is about parents who are not involved in their children's education.
> 
> And that town is full of poor minorities and is on the top 10 most dangerous towns in America.   Just because I state facts doesn't make me a racist.  Even though that is what you are presuming.


No, I’m actually not presuming that about you. If I were I wouldn’t be in this discussion with you. I said “interesting” and meant exactly that, because it’s inherently ingrained for the majority of people of all races to presume that inner-city impoverished areas are in most cases minority populations.

And again I’m in agreement with you, in that a home life which allows for students to be nurtured is infinitely more valuable to students than whatever money can be thrown at them. But I think where we disagree is in the perception of impoverished people choosing for convenience to live a life that hampers nurturing. I just don’t believe that the overwhelming majority of impoverished people are not motivated to strive for a better life - I just think that there are far too many obstacles in their way. Some of those obstacles can be solved with money; others are harder to overcome because they require collective understanding and a major rethink of cultural divides.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2021)

The In-N-Out burger just opening on 136th and I-25 in Colorado is paying $20 per hour.  I saw the sign and don't remember the EXACT amount, but I am close because I was thinking that my tech job back in 1997 I was making $12.72 an hour, and I was teaching computer classes at the time to Realtors, plus answering phones the rest of the time to offer tech support to the same Realtors.  I realize there has been inflation, but so shocking to see the burger places offering up so much income to get people hired. 

Our state really is experiencing issues with hiring for restaurants and even grocery stores.  I remember when Safeway was a coveted job, a union position, great pay, and I just talked to a checker this morning who just got hired a week ago.  He had no idea where anything was in the store (I asked for vinegar) and offered up that info. 

One of my best friends had to sack groceries for four years before moving up to the bakery and was never offered a job as a checker.  She would be so jealous that this kid got the job without any experience at all.  She finally settled for the bakery and worked there at least 12 years and really liked the job.  She used to call me when the day-old donuts were going to be wrapped up and reduced in price by 75%.  

I cannot remember how long she stayed there and cannot ask her because she died years ago of pancreas issues, I suspect.  She died of a massive stomachache.  She was an alcoholic at the end of her life.  She had so much sadness in her life. Some folks think they have a hard life, but unless you have lived her life, you cannot even imagine the pain.  She drugged herself from alcohol to escape.  Her skin was yellow the last time I viisted with her.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> Actually, my mother was widowed - she had to work for the first time in her life to take care of her kids.   But she did what she had to.   Eventually she remarried and I came from the new marriage.  However, we were fairly poor when I was very young.  Though my dad did better once I became a teenager.  Living in a tiny apartment with 4 kids and 1 bathroom and an incredibly tiny kitchen/eating area.  I slept on a cot in the hallway until I was around 8 or 9.   But we all got through and most of us are doing pretty well as adults.
> 
> My wife father walked out on her family when she was only 11 and her sister 8.  He emptied out all the bank accounts and didn't pay any support.  My MIL had a nervous breakdown and stopped eating.  My wife started working weekends at the Aquaduct Flea Market.  She was chopping onions all day for a food concession.   She would come home with burning cuts after getting paid $20/day.   However, they needed it.   She eventually got some better jobs ending up at an AP dept of local business by the time she was 15.   Got her sister a job there when she got old enough.   Those jobs funded food and clothing they had.   Most of their nutrition came from free school lunch and breakfast.    They both turned out to be pretty successful.
> 
> I guess it would have been easier to be a victim.


I love your story.  I don't want to go into mine in as much detail, but similar.  My sisters and I shared a room, dorm style.  My mom always wanted us to have our own beds.  We slept in 30" beds (smaller than the 39" wide twins).  We had one bathroom, too.  My sisters and I were made fun of because we wore the same clothes about every third day.  The youngest got the hand-me-downs.  We ate a lot of pancake dinners, which I loved, but I didn't realize until I got older why in the world we ate pancakes a lot.  And I also didn't understand why Dad would get upset when the milk went bad and didn't get used.  

I loved going to my grandparents' farm to eat lots of meat and fresh vegetables.  My grandpa would load our station wagon with frozen meat and canned vegetables to help sustain our diet.  I was anemic every single time I went to the doctor.  

My parents paid $13,000 for that house in 1963.  The house would easily sell for $750,000 today, and that is crazy to think about but it's in North Denver, sitting there with the same square footage it always had.  It's just in the right place.  When my parents bought it, they looked at the suburbs and saw houses for much more money for less brick and more upkeep.  Denver was cheap to live back in the day.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I love your story.  I don't want to go into mine in as much detail, but similar.  My sisters and I shared a room, dorm style.  My mom always wanted us to have our own beds.  We slept in 30" beds (smaller than the 39" wide twins).  We had one bathroom, too.  My sisters and I were made fun of because we wore the same clothes about every third day.  The youngest got the hand-me-downs.  We ate a lot of pancake dinners, which I loved, but I didn't realize until I got older why in the world we ate pancakes a lot.  And I also didn't understand why Dad would get upset when the milk went bad and didn't get used.
> 
> I loved going to my grandparents' farm to eat lots of meat and fresh vegetables.  My grandpa would load our station wagon with frozen meat and canned vegetables to help sustain our diet.  I was anemic every single time I went to the doctor.
> 
> My parents paid $13,000 for that house in 1963.  The house would easily sell for $750,000 today, and that is crazy to think about but it's in North Denver, sitting there with the same square footage it always had.  It's just in the right place.  When my parents bought it, they looked at the suburbs and saw houses for much more money for less brick and more upkeep.  Denver was cheap to live back in the day.



Your comments about the clothing would hit home with my wife.   She only had 1 or 2 pairs of jeans and never enough undies.

We are pretty well off and I still get upset when the milk turns bad and I have to throw it out.   Or anything is wasted.    It drives me crazy when my kids take 3 or 4 paper towels when 1 would suffice. 

I am not obsessed about these things, but I try to be frugal.

Joe


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## geekette (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> The hippies were full of sh*t.   They and the much of their generation are the ones who brought us this inequality, corporate mergers, mass layoffs on profitable businesses and many of financial problems of today.   Their greed is never ending.


Please expand on this idea that hippies caused these problems and your assertion that they have never ending greed.   Doesn’t track with me, but I admit to not being a human of sufficient age to know what was going on and never studied hippies at all.    I wouldn’t mind a few nuggets to chew on.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2021)

geekette said:


> Please expand on this idea that hippies caused these problems and your assertion that they have never ending greed.   Doesn’t track with me, but I admit to not being a human of sufficient age to know what was going on and never studied hippies at all.    I wouldn’t mind a few nuggets to chew on.



What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.   

Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.


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## geekette (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.


Ok, thanks,   To me, not every boomer was a hippie and I guess I’d be surprised to find many former hippies on mahogany row.    It would be interesting to know how many of the peace/love folks did go on to be the robber baron type.   Money wasn’t their thing but perhaps living in a van down by the river for a few years changed that.


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## CanuckTravlr (Dec 22, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.



While I am a Canadian, I am also an early baby boomer.  While the US and Canada have always wandered down slightly different paths, let me first say that only a very small percentage of boomers were ever part of the "hippy culture". The rest of us were concerned about getting through school, getting a job and establishing a family, just like every generation before us or since us.  Your comments IMO are a blatant example of stereotyping, your qualifier notwithstanding.  Quite frankly, I find them offensive.  If you want to look for something to blame, you need to go back and study history.

The traits you describe have existed for a very long time, particularly in the USA, even before the "robber barons" of the 19th century.  In fact, most of the things you blame my US counterparts for were always in play.  It has always been an ebb and flow of more vs. less regulation, gathering vs. sharing wealth, and so on, increasing debt vs increasing taxes, or vice versa.  It was going on long before we got into positions of power.  Even as we exit the workplace, it is still going on!

Most of the things you seem to want to blame us for are not really generational, they are much more the result of political ideology, which shifts back and forth over time and generations.  In fact, as an outside observer, the beliefs you ascribe to my generation in the USA seem to reflect many of the espoused priorities of a particular US political party today.  I can assure you that no generation, including my own, stands undivided and supportive of only one political party!

There seems to be a proclivity these days to play the "blame game".  If you don't like the way things are, then you need to start looking for ways to ensure they change.  Too often people complain, but then go on doing the same old things, or nothing, and wonder why they keep getting the same old results.  Maybe everyone needs to spend a little less time complaining and a little more time finding ways to change things!  Just my two cents!


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## TravelTime (Dec 22, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> We all have our own take on it. You seem concentrated on the $ amount of the insurance. Mine is on the decoupling. If someone has to pay the same amount for coverage, whether or not they are employed and will get tax credit if their income is lower, and they have to pay childcare if they work, there is less incentive to take a $7.50/hr service sector job.



I thought we were talking about boomers retiring early. So how is child care relevant to boomers, who are older and unlikely to have young children?

In terms of decoupling, I doubt that is the case. Like someone else said, ACA insurance is very expensive. I doubt that is a motivator to retire early. I really think that the $ amount of insurance makes a difference.


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## Brett (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.



FYI  I don't know  how old you are but  "boomers" are not former "hippies"

Sure, some people back in the 1960's  wore T shirts with peace signs protesting the Vietnam war and Richard Nixon but to blame hippies or boomers for mass layoffs, "destroying the country" decline in unions and causing todays "financial problems" whatever that is    .  (stock market ?)


*that's quite a stretch*.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.



start getting your defense together now because when you hit “old age”, I can pretty much assure you some snot nosed whipper snapper will be blaming your generation for screwing up the world. The current generation blaming the former seems to be a tradition since the beginning of time. Of course this can be said in reverse. Playing the blame game is true sport among people.

I would suggest that you slept through history class or, your study of history was strictly recent history with a bent towards blame. I had a few professors like that when I went through school.


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## geekette (Dec 23, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> I thought we were talking about boomers retiring early. So how is child care relevant to boomers, who are older and unlikely to have young children?
> 
> In terms of decoupling, I doubt that is the case. Like someone else said, ACA insurance is very expensive. I doubt that is a motivator to retire early. I really think that the $ amount of insurance makes a difference.


The discussion is about labor shortage, so discussion stretches past just boomers.

I completely agree, decoupling is not helping anyone leave jobs.   The $ amount is significantly higher without employer subsidy.   It’s not the case that insurance is same cost with or without employer.    I never paid even 100/mo with employer insurance.    IMO, not otherwise possible.


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## bogey21 (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> The hippies were full of sh*t.   They and the much of their generation are the ones who brought us this inequality, corporate mergers, mass layoffs on profitable businesses and many of financial problems of today.   Their greed is never ending.


I married one (my first wife).  She went back to school, graduated and became a practicing psychiatrist...

George


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    *The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.  *
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.



And your generation wasn't subject to the draft, to be fed into a land war that couldn't be won, and then sneered at for that war. Maybe you should read about the Vietnam escalation, run by those previous generation "heroes", who fed the next generation in as "cannon fodder", before you voice your opinion. . .


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## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

Many of you make some very valid points.

1 - I am 51 YO - making me mid Gen X.

2 - We certainly didn't have to face the draft like baby boomers did.   However, the earlier generation did it because they thought it was the right thing to do.  Not for greed.   Not like the whole gulf war after 9/11 - which was all about corporate profit.   Plenty of soldiers lost their lives, were crippled or suffered terrible mental anguish; and for what?  So Haliburton and other like it can fatten their bottom line.

3 - It is hard to disagree that the US has gone downhill during your stewardship.  Deregulation led to massive profits in the 80s and 90s - which your generation primarily benefited from.    But has critically hurt the US - mergers hurting mom & pop businesses, jobs leaving for other countries, etc.  All in the name of some more profit.   Corporate raiders, Wall St and CEOs.   The heroes of the Baby Boomers - Hollywood even made tons of movies about it.

4 - Your generation can't seem to relinquish power - especially political.   I would love to see a mandatory retirement from public life at 65.  

5 - Gen X is the sandwich generation - trying its best to clean up your mess and taking care of you at the same time and lost in the process.    Our main influence has been in computers, internet and futurist related businesses.  People like Bezos or Musk. 

I would like to say that I am not personally accusing any of you of the above.  I think that it refers more to the people of your generation that rose to power.  I think this discussion came from someone saying hippies were the ones who refused to sell out to the man.    They became the man - and acted like everything that they had previously blamed the man for.   They never had the ethics of the previous 'man'.

Joe


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## am1 (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> 4 - Your generation can't seem to relinquish power - especially political.   I would love to see a mandatory retirement from public life at 65.



The people that could change that are the ones that it would be hurt by.  Unless enough young people get in where their path could be opened up by it and at 65 they themselves would be happy to be done with politics as their pockets would be nicely lined.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 23, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> I married one (my first wife).  She went back to school, graduated and became a practicing psychiatrist...
> 
> George



"I Married A Hippie"

There's a book in there somewhere, George.


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## geekette (Dec 23, 2021)

mandatory retirement for public life at 65?   Term limits exist at the ballot box, Don t want an old rep,  dont vote for them.   It could take until age 65 for someone that starts in city management to work their way up to fed office.    I am against arbitrary barriers to people with experience and ideas.   Throw your money and support behind young’uns if that’s who you want leading.   And don’t be angry if you’re tossed from your career when you hit a birthday since you advocate that treatmentt for others.   Ageism, blech


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Many of you make some very valid points.
> 
> 1 - I am 51 YO - making me mid Gen X.
> 
> ...



Joe, your generation didn't face:

The Great Depression. With 25%+ unemployment, and soup kitchens. (1930s)

WWII, with death overseas, and rationing back home. (1940s)

The Cold War, with Nuclear Armageddon as a constant companion. Duck and cover, anyone? Cuban Missile crisis? (1950s and early 60s)

The meat grinder of Vietnam, with no way to win, but lots of ways to die. And with the draft, it was "equal opportunity". (1965 to 1970's).

The great inflation (late 1960's to mid 1980's) - But gee, you're getting to see a rerun today. . . 

It's real easy to say "it's somebody else's fault". The facts (ALL of them) don't show it.

Power mad Baby Boomers? Sure, some. But every generation has some. Bezos and Zuckenberg, for example, sure aren't Baby Boomers. To get a better feel for what I am saying, get a copy of The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe, and read it.


----------



## travelhacker (Dec 23, 2021)

This thread got a bit off track. I'm a millennial and we're used to everyone blaming us for everything.

This thread started with an article about how Boomers retiring is why we are seeing a labor shortage. This is purely anecdotal, but I know probably 6 boomers that were planning on retiring in 2020 that decided to postpone their retirement. If they couldn't travel and didn't have to go into an office, what was the point of retiring? 3 of the 6 have retired, and 3 more will likely retire in the next 12 months. 

I think we are seeing a disruption in the labor force simply because people put basically everything on hold for at least a year. I was planning on looking for a new job in 2020, but it sure didn't seem smart to ditch my ultra-safe job right in the middle of COVID. 

We are seeing a lot of people retiring this year that were planning on retiring in the previous 18 months and it's all hitting in a more compressed schedule. 

While I do think that Baby Boomers retiring may be having an effect on the labor shortage as a whole, I don't think it plays much of a factor in the most visible aspects of the labor shortage. 

For example, none of the fast food restaurants near me offer indoor seating because they don't have the employees to keep it looking presentable. There are shortened hours everywhere. I don't even like eating out any more because the staff are so overwhelmed that it's just not an enjoyable experience.


----------



## noreenkate (Dec 23, 2021)

geekette said:


> not missing a thing.   My monthly cost would be 800 last I checked.   That’s another mortgage payment.  I am oldest GenX, sibs are boomers.   I am semi retired, no insurance.



Later gen X- fully retired with former employer health insurance.
Growing up my family were immigrant small business owners - lots of feast or famine, medical some years never dental or eyecare…

Soon as I was old enough (16)  I filled for a civil service (union) job with benefit package semi guaranteed retirement package after 20 years.  Took 5 years on a list to get hired…pay was a lot less than what my friends were making.

So much so that ex- husband encouraged me to quit 2 years in to stay home with the kids- was bringing home $320 a week with 75 mile commute each way and paying $350 for child care…but we had medical. Worked 17 years on midnights to keep child care costs out of the picture.

It sucked for quite a few years but I was under 45 and retired…

Have to say I feel sorry that the generations that followed didn’t have the same opportunities and still don’t as my former employer requires college now…IMO it’s just an added bill, can’t imagine how anyone with student loans survive.


----------



## geekette (Dec 23, 2021)

noreenkate said:


> Later gen X- fully retired with former employer health insurance.
> Growing up my family were immigrant small business owners - lots of feast or famine, medical some years never dental or eyecare…
> 
> Soon as I was old enough (16)  I filled for a civil service (union) job with benefit package semi guaranteed retirement package after 20 years.  Took 5 years on a list to get hired…pay was a lot less than what my friends were making.
> ...


Hard work story including persistence to get the job you wanted.  Good on you, you totally deserve early retirement.   You gained it the hard way.

 I do think the idea that a college degree is required for jobs that don’t really need it is bunk.  To me, it’s just more business flexing its muscle as the gr3at decider.   One of the smartest guys I ever worked with never went to college.   Last I kne, he was a VP at the software company he was an integral part of.   Passing up people that don’t have a certain item on the resume is not necessarily going to result in getting the best people for the job, only in whittling the applicant population.


----------



## Brett (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Many of you make some very valid points.
> 
> 1 - I am 51 YO - making me mid Gen X.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I would say it has not gone "downhill"

The current economic situation and living conditions in the US are better than it was during the 1960's
The "hippie" or boomer "heroes" are not Wall St corporate raiders.
China and Asia becoming capitalists led to US manufacturing jobs moving overseas

I think you're watching movies, listening to a TV entertainer or like another poster said,  --- you have slept through history classes


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## TravelTime (Dec 23, 2021)

In Northern California, in spite of high cost of living from expensive housing, high state taxes and overall high prices, the standard of living is quite high compared to the past. In the Bay Area where I lived for 25 years, it is an overall very wealthy place compared to pre-2000. I currently live about 2-3 hours from the Bay Area. Housing prices are a lot lower than the Bay Area (probably 1/4 of the cost). We have an overall high cost of living but a much higher standard of living than most places in the US.

I am an optimist when it comes to development so I always see the present and future as being better than the past. While there is extreme poverty in many parts of the US and overseas, it was worse in the past. I am a late millennial but I remember some parts of the economic issues of 1970s even though I was a child. By the 1980s+, I saw a lot of development and the economic situation of everyone I know has continuously been improving. I doubt anyone here on TUG is doing poorly. I think we are all blessed to afford travel and purchase timeshares. 

My husband is in his early 50s and he does not want to retire even though he could because he enjoys his work and we like getting employer sponsored healthcare. It is better than anything we could get for our family on the open market. I need to estimate how much health insurance would be on the open market for 4 people. I am curious after this discussion.

The labor shortage seems like the perfect storm. Demand for jobs in down while supply of jobs is up. Salaries are up since companies really need employees. Given we work and do not need to, I wonder why all these lower to middle income people do not want to work. How will they save for a home or rent and their basic needs let alone fund retirement?


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

geekette said:


> mandatory retirement for public life at 65?   Term limits exist at the ballot box, Don t want an old rep,  dont vote for them.   It could take until age 65 for someone that starts in city management to work their way up to fed office.    I am against arbitrary barriers to people with experience and ideas.   Throw your money and support behind young’uns if that’s who you want leading.   And don’t be angry if you’re tossed from your career when you hit a birthday since you advocate that treatmentt for others.   Ageism, blech



I am not advocating that all 65s be required to retire - just elected officials.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Joe, your generation didn't face:
> 
> The Great Depression. With 25%+ unemployment, and soup kitchens. (1930s)
> 
> ...



Baby boomers didn't really face the first 3 either.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

travelhacker said:


> This thread got a bit off track. I'm a millennial and we're used to everyone blaming us for everything.
> 
> This thread started with an article about how Boomers retiring is why we are seeing a labor shortage. This is purely anecdotal, but I know probably 6 boomers that were planning on retiring in 2020 that decided to postpone their retirement. If they couldn't travel and didn't have to go into an office, what was the point of retiring? 3 of the 6 have retired, and 3 more will likely retire in the next 12 months.
> 
> ...




I have always thought it unfair to blame things on millennials.    They haven't had a chance to really have major influence yet.  Your time is coming around now.       I think that there are sterotypes that people associate with Millennials:   Lazy and think the world owes them everything.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

noreenkate said:


> Later gen X- fully retired with former employer health insurance.
> Growing up my family were immigrant small business owners - lots of feast or famine, medical some years never dental or eyecare…
> 
> Soon as I was old enough (16)  I filled for a civil service (union) job with benefit package semi guaranteed retirement package after 20 years.  Took 5 years on a list to get hired…pay was a lot less than what my friends were making.
> ...



The problem with student loans is that people dont understand the concept of college as an investment in future earnings.   IF you borrow money for a degree that will get you a job that doesn't pay enough to cover the debt, it is not a good idea to go down that path.

There are always ways around this.  You can do 2 years at community college and transfer to a 4 year college.  NJ provides free community college for kids of low to moderate income families.  They also provide support functions and extra cash for books and whatever.  I think they provide $10K per semester vs around $3.5K cost.   You can transfer to a 4-year school after 2 years.   Right there, you cut your cost of college in half.   Plus there are plenty of other programs available here and in other states.  I think in NY, tution is free is your family has under 100K income.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

Brett said:


> Sorry, I would say it has not gone "downhill"
> 
> The current economic situation and living conditions in the US are better than it was during the 1960's
> The "hippie" or boomer "heroes" are not Wall St corporate raiders.
> ...



Living conditions, yes.   Chance of continuation of our country.....  decreasing yearly.    We are completely divided as a country.  How long until a state decides to defy the federal gov't due one side blue vs red.  Once that happens once, it will start to happen everywhere and that will be the beginning of the end.   We will become a bunch of city states.

We already have a portion of the populace who dont believe in the rule of law.   Online - so many people think it is OK for people to steal because they must need it.  Rioting and mass crime all over (especially in NW part of country) - with nothing really done to stop it.   This is all a scary foreshadowing of things to come.  

I hope I am wrong. I love my country and my life/lifestyle.   But I think that we are in a very dangerous phase in this country.


----------



## geekette (Dec 23, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> In Northern California, in spite of high cost of living from expensive housing, high state taxes and overall high prices, the standard of living is quite high compared to the past. In the Bay Area where I lived for 25 years, it is an overall very wealthy place compared to pre-2000. I currently live about 2-3 hours from the Bay Area. Housing prices are a lot lower than the Bay Area (probably 1/4 of the cost). We have an overall high cost of living but a much higher standard of living than most places in the US.
> 
> I am an optimist when it comes to development so I always see the present and future as being better than the past. While there is extreme poverty in many parts of the US and overseas, it was worse in the past. I am a late millennial but I remember some parts of the economic issues of 1970s even though I was a child. By the 1980s+, I saw a lot of development and the economic situation of everyone I know has continuously been improving. I doubt anyone here on TUG is doing poorly. I think we are all blessed to afford travel and purchase timeshares.
> 
> ...


“do not want to work” is not necessarily true.   I’d be cautious in using that characterization.    Circumstances vary widely.


----------



## CanuckTravlr (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> I have always thought it unfair to blame things on millennials.    They haven't had a chance to really have major influence yet.  Your time is coming around now.       I think that there are sterotypes that people associate with Millennials:   Lazy and think the world owes them everything.



Yet you have no problem blaming everything on boomers!  Right.


----------



## bogey21 (Dec 23, 2021)

geekette said:


> I do think the idea that a college degree is required for jobs that don’t really need it is bunk.  To me, it’s just more business flexing its muscle as the gr3at decider.



Agree.  Requiring a college degree is a crutch for those who lack confidence in their ability to hire.  One time when I was Executive VP of a Bank we needed a Marketing Officer.  My President ordered me to hire someone with an advanced degree.  He told me it bothered him that he had hired me with only an Undergraduate degree and wanted me to be supported with better educated people.  I knew the perfect guy for the job.   Unfortunately, his highest level of formal education was working on the night shift at Granite City Steel Company in Illinois.   I hired him anyway and it damn near cost me my job.   In the end it worked out fine.  The President was later fired.  I replaced him and my Marketing Officer did a fantastic job and stayed with me until he retired...

George


----------



## dougp26364 (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Many of you make some very valid points.
> 
> 1 - I am 51 YO - making me mid Gen X.
> 
> ...



Have you heard of The roaring 20’s? The Great Depression? Robber barons? Silicon Valley? The dot com millionaires?

If greed is your benchmark, then every single generation, including yours, fits the bill.

EVERY generation can lay claim to cleaning up the mess left by the previous generation.

the problem with the boomer generation is it’s a bubble. We supported the lower numbered prior generation and the next generation doesn’t number great enough to replace the boomers leaving the employment market.

The economy had to expand to support the boomer population boom. Greed or necessity? Now that the boomers are retiring, there are not enough warm bodies to replace them.

the next “revolution” will likely be the rise of the robots and automation. The boomers will leave that to this generation to screw up


----------



## Brett (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Living conditions, yes.   Chance of continuation of our country.....  decreasing yearly.    We are completely divided as a country.  How long until a state decides to defy the federal gov't due one side blue vs red.  Once that happens once, it will start to happen everywhere and that will be the beginning of the end.   We will become a bunch of city states.
> 
> We already have a portion of the populace who dont believe in the rule of law.   Online - so many people think it is OK for people to steal because they must need it.  Rioting and mass crime all over (especially in NW part of country) - with nothing really done to stop it.   This is all a scary foreshadowing of things to come.
> 
> I hope I am wrong. I love my country and my life/lifestyle.   But I think that we are in a very dangerous phase in this country.




nope, violent crime was much worse in the 1960's.        In the 1960's and early '70's there were divisions and "rioting" over the Vietnam War and Richard Nixon

You're watching too much foxnews. take a break


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## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Yet you have no problem blaming everything on boomers!  Right.



Boomers have been running things from 80s onward.   Millennials , not so much.


----------



## geist1223 (Dec 23, 2021)

I am a retired Boomer. I retired at 58.75. I will have been retired for 9 years at the end of this month. I find most of these arguments/discussions worthless and petty. I do remember in my last couple of years of working how hard it was to hire folks in their 20's right out of college. Getting them to show up on time and put in a full 8 hours a day 5 days a week was a major effort. I never understood that mind set. I had my first paying job at about 13 and pretty much always had a paying job after that even during college until I retired.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

Brett said:


> nope, violent crime was much worse in the 1960's.        In the 1960's and early '70's there were divisions and "rioting" over the Vietnam War and Richard Nixon
> 
> You're watching too much foxnews. take a break



I dont watch fox news or any other cable news channel  (Dont even have cable or streaming cable now).  I read my news through news aggregators like Yahoo.   We certainly had issues in the past, but the hate between sides is far worse than any other time in my life.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

I know my opinions on this thread have not been popular.   

Truly I hope my fears are wrong and you are all correct when talking about the future.

Can't say I feel differently about the boomer generation in general.  But did read all your responses.   It is ok to disagree.

Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas.


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> I know my opinions on this thread have not been popular.
> 
> Truly I hope my fears are wrong and you are all correct when talking about the future.
> 
> ...


----------



## wilma (Dec 23, 2021)

We shouldn’t hate one another, so maybe tone down the hateful rhetoric like the hippies are full of “sh**” and hippies/boomers destroyed the country…..


----------



## easyrider (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> What I mean is that the former hippies (baby boomers) were the generation that destroyed this country.   They peace and love, but what they really meant is that it is all about "me:".  They turned into the greediest generation - many of them behind corporate mergers, mass layoffs, putting profit before people, killing unions, building up massive gov't debt and eliminating regulation.    The previous generation had dealt with war, had some sense of patriotism.  That generation had none.
> 
> Of course, I don't mean every individual, but in general the hippies/baby boomers have not been very good stewards of our country.



You are absolutely wrong. Hippies were the group, that were mostly non-violent pacifists, that for a brief while, changed the direction of our country regarding tolerance. They ushered in many social changes for the better. Not every one in these age groups were part these changes. All age groups consist of many groups with many ideas. Tolerance is one of the best ideas that came from this movement.

I think you are thinking of the corporate greed that accelerated in the 80's that spilled over into every ones life.     

Bill


----------



## noreenkate (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> The problem with student loans is that people dont understand the concept of college as an investment in future earnings.   IF you borrow money for a degree that will get you a job that doesn't pay enough to cover the debt, it is not a good idea to go down that path.
> 
> There are always ways around this.  You can do 2 years at community college and transfer to a 4 year college.  NJ provides free community college for kids of low to moderate income families.  They also provide support functions and extra cash for books and whatever.  I think they provide $10K per semester vs around $3.5K cost.   You can transfer to a 4-year school after 2 years.   Right there, you cut your cost of college in half.   Plus there are plenty of other programs available here and in other states.  I think in NY, tution is free is your family has under 100K income.



Sorry but I disagree completely - nys is where I left specifically Long Island, the cost of living is ridiculous. What your probably missing here is that a family of 4 the true poverty, meaning can’t survive without assistance,  line is actually about 75k. So when they finally established tuition assistance many families still don’t qualify. As a single mom of 2 had I not retired and moved to TN - where ALL residents qualify for minimum 2 years community college or trade school grants my kids would not have been eligible- no state assistance no pell, ALL LOAN.

Again my opinion but there are many employers that require college as part of the application process regardless if it’s related to the job offering. I worked for a major municipality police department they now require a degree/college credits before application can be completed, same goes for promotions- it was useless IMO my last supervisor had a degree in culinary arts! Most bought degrees from degree mills it’s a ridiculous excercise and a waste of time…I do think there are many careers that do and should require specific specialized but community colleges in general are a money pit with dismissal graduation rates.


			https://www-communitycollegereview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/www.communitycollegereview.com/images/Untitled2(1).png


----------



## rapmarks (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Baby boomers didn't really face the first 3 either.


Baby boomers definitely faced Cold War, nuclear Armageddon, Cuban missile  crisis


----------



## joestein (Dec 23, 2021)

noreenkate said:


> Sorry but I disagree completely - nys is where I left specifically Long Island, the cost of living is ridiculous. What your probably missing here is that a family of 4 the true poverty, meaning can’t survive without assistance,  line is actually about 75k. So when they finally established tuition assistance many families still don’t qualify. As a single mom of 2 had I not retired and moved to TN - where ALL residents qualify for minimum 2 years community college or trade school grants my kids would not have been eligible- no state assistance no pell, ALL LOAN.
> 
> Again my opinion but there are many employers that require college as part of the application process regardless if it’s related to the job offering. I worked for a major municipality police department they now require a degree/college credits before application can be completed, same goes for promotions- it was useless IMO my last supervisor had a degree in culinary arts! Most bought degrees from degree mills it’s a ridiculous excercise and a waste of time…I do think there are many careers that do and should require specific specialized but community colleges in general are a money pit with dismissal graduation rates.
> 
> ...



Since 2018 all SUNY and CUNY colleges are tuition free for those who make under $125K.

Tuition-Free Degree Program: The Excelsior Scholarship (ny.gov)


----------



## CanuckTravlr (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Boomers have been running things from 80s onward.   Millennials , not so much.



Sorry, but your math is off.  I'm an early boomer, born before 1950 in the first three years of the boomer generation.  In the 1980s I was barely in my thirties.  I can assure you I was not really running anything except a small staff.  I think you might be confusing us with the war-time generation, born from about 1930 to 1945.  But they aren't responsible for all the faults in society either, anymore than boomers, GenXers or Millennials are.

You are essentially dealing in a form of conspiracy theory.  You need to do a little more historical research or move on!  In any case, Merry Christmas to you, too!


----------



## PcflEZFlng (Dec 23, 2021)

Although there are problems with corporate greed and laissez-faire policies (and they need fixing), life overall is better than it was in the 60s. I don't have any nostalgia for that period (though the music was great!). And yes, we boomers absolutely faced the Cold War and the front-page-news-every-day prospect of nuclear armageddon, right up until 1989.

It just seems now that many of those who point fingers at older generations, who worked so hard to build so much, are the same ones who now want to vote for those who are all for 'law and order' (except for them, where the rule of law doesn't apply) and are working tirelessly to burn it all down.


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## TravelTime (Dec 23, 2021)

Life is better now than in the 50s, 60s and 70s in terms of social change for women and non-white individuals. But it still has a long way to go toward equality and tolerance. There’s a significant proportion of the US population that is dangerous in terms of beliefs and/or actions toward women and non-white individuals.


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## Brett (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> I dont watch fox news or any other cable news channel  (Dont even have cable or streaming cable now).  I read my news through news aggregators like Yahoo.   We certainly had issues in the past, but the hate between sides is far worse than any other time in my life.





> QUOTE="joestein, post: 2712574, member: 4045"]
> I know my opinions on this thread have not been popular.
> 
> Truly I hope my fears are wrong and you are all correct when talking about the future.
> ...



Fair enough
I was hoping you would reconsider your thinking that boomers "destroyed America" resulting in mass layoffs and 'killing' unions etc.
But like other posters have indicated, just wait until your generation to get blamed for current problems
.
and maybe reconsider not looking at yahoo "news'  
.
Merry Christmas


----------



## Jan M. (Dec 23, 2021)

joestein said:


> Baby boomers didn't really face the first 3 either.



Many boomers were raised and greatly influenced by parents and grandparents who grew up, raised families, etc. during the Depression. Our grandfathers, great uncles, fathers, uncles, etc. fought in WW l and ll. For those at home the economies learned and practiced during the Depression continued with the shortages and rationing in WWll. Many of us still do some of those thrifty things we picked up from our grandmothers, mothers, aunts. We grew up with the threat of a nuclear attack and the drills at school in the event one should happen. Also with the threat of being invaded by the Russians. Many of us probably remember the 1966 movie: _The Russians Are Coming._

While these events would seem like history to younger generations they were talked about and lived like they just happened by the people who raised us and lived around us. These events and the people who lived them greatly shaped and influenced our generation.


----------



## Superchief (Dec 23, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> And your generation wasn't subject to the draft, to be fed into a land war that couldn't be won, and then sneered at for that war. Maybe you should read about the Vietnam escalation, run by those previous generation "heroes", who fed the next generation in as "cannon fodder", before you voice your opinion. . .


I suggest watching Tour of Duty. It is a great series about the Vietnam war. Although I missed being drafted by a few numbers, many of my friends served time there. It wasn't a pleasant experience and many suffered when they came back.


----------



## PamMo (Dec 23, 2021)

Why is this so contentious? I don’t think any generation has had it easy. We’ve all had to play the hand we’ve been dealt. My kids have had to deal with 9/11 and the fallout from that. It’s been brutal. They chose to serve after graduating from university and thankfully, they survived tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and have dealt with issues after that. They’ve made wonderful lives, but are still concerned with what kind of world they leave to their kids.

Sure, some children win the womb lottery, and life might be easier, but it’s not guaranteed. All generations need to make an effort to give opportunities to those who come after us.


----------



## geekette (Dec 24, 2021)

joestein said:


> I know my opinions on this thread have not been popular.
> 
> Truly I hope my fears are wrong and you are all correct when talking about the future.
> 
> ...


Right on.   I come here for intelligent discourse.  it would be super boring if we were all completely the same.


----------



## Snazzylass (Dec 24, 2021)

SHG said:


> I am not understanding your theory on how healthcare cost is helping people retire sooner. If you ever looked at the ACA cost, for anyone with any reasonable income, ACA cost is prohibitively high. It would not prompt a lot of people to pay that cost and retire, myself included. If your income is low enough to actually get ACA, you probably cant afford to retire. Not sure ACA is the cause here. What am I missing?


Yup! Can't help you with that! ACA drove me back to a corp job where my health ins is truly affordable. On the other hand, right before ACA was passed, I had a license to sell to health ins and was self-employed. With ACA, my mo cost went from less than $200/mo to over $400+/mo and that was 10 years ago.

I've got 24 more months and it is a grind. Luckily, my health is good! I've never used the ins, but it's not smart to not have it.


----------



## tombanjo (Dec 24, 2021)

It's the Beatniks with all their finger snapping and bongos that caused all the problems. Spouting poetry and folk songs they ruined the economy, prevented us from getting universal health care, raised capital gains tax and created inflation. Maynard G. Krebs singlehandedly is causing the labor shortage by refusing to work.


----------



## kanerf (Dec 24, 2021)

Hey, I did my 40+ years (and am still working).  The rest of you need to get off your couch and get to work.


----------



## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

I attempted to find a similar health insurance plan to the one we get with my husband’s company. We have United Healthcare and we have no deductible and low costs to visit doctors and specialists. Plus we have vision and dental. For a family of 4, it’s $30,000 a year for the most similar plan I could find. I am not sure how much we pay since he probably needs to pay something extra for adding the 3 of us to his plan. I will ask him.


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## bogey21 (Dec 24, 2021)

My second ex-wife is a flight attendant for a major airline.  She works the minimum number of hours needed to keep her health insurance and get standby flight privileges...

George


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## noreenkate (Dec 24, 2021)

joestein said:


> Since 2018 all SUNY and CUNY colleges are tuition free for those who make under $125K.
> 
> Tuition-Free Degree Program: The Excelsior Scholarship (ny.gov)



and again those families making that amount or less it’s is a struggle…you need to factor in cost of living in New York…$125k barely makes it for basic survival without assistance. Not sure where your from guy but reality is most of NYS is difficult to survive in. Yes they give education to those making less than 125k but at that point those families are already struggling for basic necessities. With the below numbers in mind the below numbers,  as I said in my earlier post are generations starting behind me unable to do what my generation did…and 2 year college education is just an employment tax.






__





						United Way Report on the Trends Impacting Long Island Working Families Struggling to Make Ends Meet | United Way of Long Island
					

United Way ALICE® Report: State’s working poor labor force is growing Families and individuals across New York state, including those living on Long Island, are lacking sufficient income and resources for housing, food, child care, transportation and health care, according to a report released...




					www.unitedwayli.org
				




*In Nassau County, the Household Survival Budget is $80,940 or $40.47/hour for a home with two adults, one infant and one preschooler.**
*In Suffolk County, the Household Survival Budget is $90,324 or $45.16/hour for a home with two adults, one infant and one preschooler.*

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page -

at base salary even at top pay the new highers fall way below the income to survive comfortably and it takes a 2 income household or realistically overly dependent on overtime to make it…at that point your free education benefits are useless.


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 24, 2021)

kanerf said:


> Hey, I did my 40+ years (and am still working).  The rest of you need to get off your couch and get to work.


In the words of former President George H. W. Bush, but the voice of Dana Carvey, “not gonna do it”!

I did my time, earned my pension, paid my SS taxes, and now I’m enjoying the fruits of that labor. I’m not getting off my couch except to get something to eat, to drink, go to the bathroom, or something that I want to do. And working for someone else again is never going to be something that I want to do!


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Dec 24, 2021)

joestein said:


> We had twins the year after we bought our home.   My MIL watched the kids for a year or two and then we got a nanny.   I believe we paid the nanny around $2K+ per month.   I think that we slowly built up a balance in our HELOC as we had trouble making ends meet.   I think our bonuses would go towards paying it down.  But it didn't cover it 100%.
> 
> The drop in interest rates/refinancing plus our kids entered first grade and we could use before/after care at under $1K a month really made a huge change to our finances.  Plus we were always making more money each year.


I so remember those early years with my kids, the cost of daycare ate all of our salary up and we were dancing for joy once they were all in shool full time, it was as if we got a 40% increase in pay..


----------



## noreenkate (Dec 24, 2021)

joestein said:


> Since 2018 all SUNY and CUNY colleges are tuition free for those who make under $125K.
> 
> Tuition-Free Degree Program: The Excelsior Scholarship (ny.gov)



and again those families making that amount or less it’s is a struggle…you need to factor in cost of living in New York…$125k barely makes it for basic survival without assistance. Not sure where your from guy but reality is most of NYS is difficult to survive in. Yes they give education to those making less than 125k but at that point those families are already struggling for basic necessities. With the below numbers in mind as I said in my earlier post are unable to do what my generation did…






__





						United Way Report on the Trends Impacting Long Island Working Families Struggling to Make Ends Meet | United Way of Long Island
					

United Way ALICE® Report: State’s working poor labor force is growing Families and individuals across New York state, including those living on Long Island, are lacking sufficient income and resources for housing, food, child care, transportation and health care, according to a report released...




					www.unitedwayli.org
				




*In Nassau County, the Household Survival Budget is $80,940 or $40.47/hour for a home with two adults, one infant and one preschooler.**
*In Suffolk County, the Household Survival Budget is $90,324 or $45.16/hour for a home with two adults, one infant and one preschooler.*

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page -

at base salary even at top pay the new highers fall way below the income to survive comfortably and it takes a 2 income household or realistically overly dependent on overtime to make it…at that point your o your free education benefits-


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Dec 24, 2021)

Superchief said:


> Prior to Covid, most larger corporations 'encouraged' their middle managers (especially OFWG's) to retire when reaching 55 in order to open positions for younger people. Early retirement packages or offers you couldn't refuse caused many of us to retire prior to when we would have liked to. I actually retired twice. I would have preferred to work another 2-3 years, but really didn't have a choice. It is ironic that both of my companies suffered significant declines after their 'rightsizing' primarily due to many inexperienced people having responsibilities beyond their capabilities. Now these same companies are having trouble finding people to do the job. Marketing professionals in my industries typically worked 50-60 hours per week, but the younger generation doesn't want to let corporations dictate their lives (rightfully so). Big corporations created most of their current turnover and loyalty problems by the way they treated their best managers.



I so agree, I started my career at Ford (worst company to work for if your were a woman back in the 90"s), and moved from OEM to OEM and even a stint at Ryder (another really bad company to work for) until I landed at my present company.

Ford and Visteon (a FORD spin off company) were famous at year end (and always right before Christmas) to offer buyouts and downsize their workforce.  In the last 4 years I have been offered multiple times to return to some of the company's I have left.  An old manager of mine literally calls me every quarter and offers me a job in his department because he states he has not been able to find someone with my work ethic (meaning I work a bunch of hours till the job is done). I remember delivering my first child and my company calling me on a landline at the hospital wanting information and data and expected me to put a presentation together. Most Companies have treated their employees very badly for years and now wonder why they have a talent shortage.

I continue to choose to stay at the Japanese Automotive company I'm working for today, because they respect the mature workforce, they have promoted me multiple times since I have been working for them, and they value their employees.  Our HQ in Michigan has had a less than 4% employee turnover rate, in the past 5 years. our Industry average is 19%.


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## bogey21 (Dec 24, 2021)

noreenkate said:


> You need to factor in cost of living in New York…$125k barely makes it for basic survival without assistance.



Back around 1958 or 1959 I was transferred from Houston, TX to New York City.  My company doubled my monthly pay from $300 to $600 to cover the increased cost of living.  It was tight but I made it on the $600 per month I was paid.  Heaven knows what the minimum salary needed for a single guy to survive in NYC is today...

George


----------



## noreenkate (Dec 24, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Back around 1958 or 1959 I was transferred from Houston, TX to New York City.  My company doubled my monthly pay from $300 to $600 to cover the increased cost of living.  It was tight but I made it on the $600 per month I was paid.  Heaven knows what the minimum salary needed for a single guy to survive in NYC is today...
> 
> George



Before I retired somewhere around 2005 ish rookie cops were eligible for food stamps - the running joke was what’s the difference between a dominos pizza and a cop…domino’s could feed a family of 4.

Found it - 




__





						POOR & ORDER – NEW COPS SEEK FOOD STAMPS
					

The city’s reduced starting salary for the NYPD’s newest class of recruits is forcing rookies at the Police Academy to apply for food stamps, sources told The Post. Union sources said t…




					nypost.com


----------



## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

@noreenkate and @joestein Tuition at SUNY is only $7000 per year, which is very low to begin with. Keep in mind that although families earning more than $125K will not get free tuition, they will still be eligible for some sort of financial aid package. 55% of SUNY’s over 220,000+ students get free tuition so they are helping many families.

The $7000 does not include living expenses but I really don’t look at that because the students would have to live somewhere if they were not in school. Plus they could always live at home and go to a local college and save on all that. I see living at the college as a luxury and not an entitlement like many kids think. In college and for my masters, I lived on campus but it was a luxury to me.


----------



## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Back around 1958 or 1959 I was transferred from Houston, TX to New York City.  My company doubled my monthly pay from $300 to $600 to cover the increased cost of living.  It was tight but I made it on the $600 per month I was paid.  Heaven knows what the minimum salary needed for a single guy to survive in NYC is today...
> 
> George



Wow, $600 a month. I can‘t believe that was the salary in the 1950s. I just googled it and I found this: the median family income for Houston was *$81,684 in 2019*.


----------



## SHG (Dec 24, 2021)

Snazzylass said:


> Yup! Can't help you with that! ACA drove me back to a corp job where my health ins is truly affordable. On the other hand, right before ACA was passed, I had a license to sell to health ins and was self-employed. With ACA, my mo cost went from less than $200/mo to over $400+/mo and that was 10 years ago.
> 
> I've got 24 more months and it is a grind. Luckily, my health is good! I've never used the ins, but it's not smart to not have it.


Yes, thank you for this! I dont think enough people realize that a lot of people's health insurance cost had to double in order for other people to get free/cheap health insurance. Personally, I am ok with that. But I still think the ACA plan still makes it too expensive for too many people, like seniors. So, a lot of people's health care cost had to double, while others still can't afford it.........


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## PcflEZFlng (Dec 24, 2021)

SHG said:


> Yes, thank you for this! I dont think enough people realize that a lot of people's health insurance cost had to double in order for other people to get free/cheap health insurance. Personally, I am ok with that. But I still think the ACA plan still makes it too expensive for too many people, like seniors. So, a lot of people's health care cost had to double, while others still can't afford it.........


Agree with this. I could have chosen ACA when I retired, but instead chose COBRA for 3 years, after which I chose ACA for one year until becoming eligible for Medicare. My ACA coverage cost (which was unsubsidized) was about the same as what I paid under COBRA, and only slightly less than private pay insurance.

I am also okay with the premise that ACA is at least a way for people of lesser means to get health insurance. It's one step closer to universal coverage. But in my view, even more of its value comes from allowing those with pre-existing conditions to be able to get coverage at all.


----------



## noreenkate (Dec 24, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> @noreenkate and @joestein Tuition at SUNY is only $7000 per year, which is very low to begin with. Keep in mind that although families earning more than $125K will not get free tuition, they will still be eligible for some sort of financial aid package. 55% of SUNY’s over 220,000+ students get free tuition so they are helping many families.
> 
> The $7000 does not include living expenses but I really don’t look at that because the students would have to live somewhere if they were not in school. Plus they could always live at home and go to a local college and save on all that. I see living at the college as a luxury and not an entitlement like many kids think. In college and for my masters, I lived on campus but it was a luxury to me.



also does not include course fees online fees scheduling fees mandatory health insurance ect…




__





						Tuition & Costs
					

Find out why Stony Brook University has become an internationally recognized research institution that is changing the world. Explore programs and degrees offered for endless career opportunities. Start your journey in education today!




					www.stonybrook.edu
				



@TravelTime - using SUNY STONYBROOK as that would have been the only SUNY my kids could have commuted to without dormitories ect… true cost adds another 3-5k in fees…again your suggestion of 2 year local college - statistically most students do not finish in 2 years see my above post and follow the link…Suffolk community college closest to our old residence has an abysmal retention & graduation rate.
Again while I was still working my oldest attended Suffolk community after graduation - based on my income alone - he was not entitled to tuition reduction, pell grants ect…so I had to foot the bill each semester for each kid until we moved to a state that offers all residents regardless of income 2 years local, free technology & trade - and I receive tuition any state school for both bachelors programs I am enrolled in ( hope to finish up before my 50th )

I am not arguing NYS has a program for tuition reduction but that not all careers need a college diploma- exactly how much help is an associates degree in culinary arts helpful in police work, again personal experience…its silly to force degree requirements and even worse to accept degrees in absolutely unrelated fields.


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## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

noreenkate said:


> also does not include course fees online fees scheduling fees mandatory health insurance ect…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Books and supplies add $1270 a year. Student fees at $1740 is ridiculous. Do you know what that includes? I think all of this is high and a way to make tuition look smaller. I recall student fees in college and my 2 grad school degrees were not that high. My last grad school degree was in 2008 so not a super long time ago. Books were always expensive.

So actual cost per year is $10,080 excluding expenses people would pay anyway of they did not attend college. $40K for 4 years is very reasonable these days. I paid more than that for my undergrad degree in the 80s.

I know many kids do not graduate in 4 years but most do. The laggards really need to get with the program and finish. If people complain about a fifth year, then why not motivate their kids to do it in 4 years or withhold tuition for the 5th year. If the kid wants to get and pay their own loans, that is better so they are motivated to finish in 4 years. I finished in 4 years and when I went to undergrad, that was the expectation for everyone. I did not know anyone, even the party crowd, who did not finish in 4 years.

I have three degrees and finished them all in the designated time frame. If I can do it 3 times, why can;t kids these days do it for just one degree?

I wonder if they still use paper textbooks. There must be a way to reduce book costs by making them all online. Something companies change almost the same for books online. However, they should not charge as much. Schools should demand that companies reduce their prices for online books.

I would not count living expenses, transportation or personal expenses because people need to pay for this whether they go to college or not. I am assuming if kids do not go to college that they should be working and supporting themselves.


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## Luanne (Dec 24, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> Books and supplies add $1270 a year. Student fees at $1740 is ridiculous. Do you know what that include? Now I think all of this is high and a way to make tuition look smaller.
> 
> So actual cost per year is $10,080 excluding expenses people would pay anyway of they did not attend college. $40K for 4 years is very reasonable these days. I paid more than that for my undergrad degree in the 80s.
> 
> ...


The problem with trying to complete a degree within four years most of the time has to do with availability of classes.  My sister was completing a degree in physical therapy (years ago) and got Mononucleosis  in the last term of her senior year.  She could not complete that term.  You'd think that she would have been able to finish in one additional term, but oh no, it took her almost another year due to the availability of classes.  And this was at Long Beach State, not a tiny little school.  My younger daughter also took longer to finish as she opted to spend her junior year abroad.  If she'd stayed at the school she started at, and graduated from, she could have graduated in four years.  So these kids aren't necessarily laggards.


----------



## bogey21 (Dec 24, 2021)

When I quit work in 1966 and went back to school full time I searched the nation for a decent school with low tuition.  I ended up attending SIU Edwardsville.  I think I paid $275 per quarter which included book rental.  To reduce my living expenses, I rented a room in an older women's house in North St Louis for $30 per month and commuted.  My savings, $175 per month from the GI Bill and my VW Beetle got me though...

A search on the Internet today tells me that tuition and fees at SIUE are now $12,219 per year (plus a 15% surcharge for the Schools of Business and Engineering) which in today's world doesn't look all that bad.  Apparently, it still includes book rental...

George


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## geist1223 (Dec 24, 2021)

kanerf said:


> Hey, I did my 40+ years (and am still working).  The rest of you need to get off your couch and get to work.



I have never known anyone on their death bed to say: "I wish I had worked another 10 years." Though We have met many people that wish they had retired earlier. Our self worth is not bound up in some job. Patti and I planned so we could retire as early as possible.


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## Superchief (Dec 24, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> When I quit work in 1966 and went back to school full time I searched the nation for a decent school with low tuition.  I ended up attending SIU Edwardsville.  I think I paid $275 per quarter which included book rental.  To reduce my living expenses, I rented a room in an older women's house in North St Louis for $30 per month and commuted.  My savings, $175 per month from the GI Bill and my VW Beetle got me though...
> 
> A search on the Internet today tells me that tuition and fees at SIUE are now $12,219 per year (plus a 15% surcharge for the Schools of Business and Engineering) which in today's world doesn't look all that bad.  Apparently, it still includes book rental...
> 
> George


SIU Edwardsville has excellent programs for Marketing Research and Agriculture. I worked with several excellent graduates from there. They were much more pragmatic than many I worked with from more prestigious schools, and actually new how to apply their learning to real business situations.


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## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

-


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## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

Luanne said:


> The problem with trying to complete a degree within four years most of the time has to do with availability of classes.  My sister was completing a degree in physical therapy (years ago) and got Mononucleosis  in the last term of her senior year.  She could not complete that term.  You'd think that she would have been able to finish in one additional term, but oh no, it took her almost another year due to the availability of classes.  And this was at Long Beach State, not a tiny little school.  My younger daughter also took longer to finish as she opted to spend her junior year abroad.  If she'd stayed at the school she started at, and graduated from, she could have graduated in four years.  So these kids aren't necessarily laggards.



Your sister and daughter had some good reasons to delay graduation so I would not include them in the laggard categories.


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## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> I have never known anyone on their death bed to say: "I wish I had worked another 10 years." Though We have met many people that wish they had retired earlier. Our self worth is not bound up in some job. Patti and I planned so we could retire as early as possible.



Our issue is with a 9 and 6 year old, what would we do when they are in school? It’s not like we can travel. My husband likes to walk and do woodworking but could he do that from 8 am to 3 pm every day while they are in school. I work part time on Tues-Fri while they are in school and have Mondays and after 2 pm for errands sometimes with the girls after school. If we did not have kids, it would be different.


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## slip (Dec 24, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> Our issue is with a 9 and 6 year old, what would we do when they are in school? It’s not like we can travel. My husband likes to walk and do woodworking but could he do that from 8 am to 3 pm every day while they are in school. I work part time on Tues-Fri while they are in school and have Mondays and after 2 pm for errands sometimes with the girls after school. If we did not have kids, it would be different.



The list of things you can do is literally endless depending on your interests. Not to mention spending more time with your children during that age that many people don't get the option to do. 

When you retire and your kids are older, it's not like you are going to travel all the time either. You are going to need variety. 

Many people have trouble with the transition to retirement. Some don't plan on what they are going to do with the new found freedom and control over their own time. Many people love their jobs and continue to work, and there's nothing wrong with that.

My sister is 65 and her husband is 52. They don't have any kids and all they do is complain about working. They could have retired years ago but they don't know what they would do with their time. They spent years saving for a comfortable retirement and have done a great job. They literally have millions saved. But they still have no plan on what they are going to do or when they will retire. It really doesn't bother me except for the fact is that all they do is complain about working. That part drives me nuts. 

Sorry for the long post, my only point is, it's never too early to start thinking about how you are going to spend your time in retirement.


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## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

slip said:


> The list of things you can do is literally endless depending on your interests. Not to mention spending more time with your children during that age that many people don't get the option to do.
> 
> When you retire and your kids are older, it's not like you are going to travel all the time either. You are going to need variety.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your advice. It is sound advice. I work part time and spend every day after school with my kids. I could retire on my husband’s income but I like working a bit. I work 15-20 hours a week. I used to work 40+ hours a week so this is a huge reduction since we adopted our girls. We are in our 50s. My husband works from home and he only works for 2 hours after they get home, sometimes less. My husband enjoys his job. He also does extremely well financial. Like really well not just well. Hard to give up a huge amount of income just to stay home with a few hobbies. If the girls were out of school and we had total freedom with our time, we would retire early. Before we adopted the girls, we talked about it. We do not need to work even with two young girls but we think it is fine when they are in school.


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## slip (Dec 24, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> I appreciate your advice. It is sound advice. I work part time and spend every day after school with my kids. I could retire on my husband’s income but I like working a bit. I work 15-20 hours a week. I used to work 40+ hours a week so this is a huge reduction since we adopted our girls. We are in our 50s. My husband works from home and he only works for 2 hours after they get home, sometimes less. My husband enjoys his job. He also does extremely well financial. Like really well not just well. Hard to give up a huge amount of income just to stay home with a few hobbies. If the girls were out of school and we had total freedom with our time, we would retire early. Before we adopted the girls, we talked about it. We do not need to work even with two young girls but we think it is fine when they are in school.



I was referring to your comment on what you would do while they were at school. You said it was an issue so I took that as you both may have been contemplating retiring. With the new post I see that's not the case you already did that and decided against it.

I threw in the story about my sister because when they complain about work it drives me crazy.   

Congratulations though, sounds like your family is all set for the future and will have a lot of options when the time comes.


----------



## TravelTime (Dec 24, 2021)

slip said:


> I was referring to your comment on what you would do while they were at school. You said it was an issue so I took that as you both may have been contemplating retiring. With the new post I see that's not the case you already did that and decided against it.
> 
> I threw in the story about my sister because when they complain about work it drives me crazy.
> 
> Congratulations though, sounds like your family is all set for the future and will have a lot of options when the time comes.



Thank you. We do not complain about work. I just downsized my business from having employees to working solo to simplify my life. So I am basically semi-retired already. We are simplifying our lives in many other ways.


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## geekette (Dec 24, 2021)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I so agree, I started my career at Ford (worst company to work for if your were a woman back in the 90"s), and moved from OEM to OEM and even a stint at Ryder (another really bad company to work for) until I landed at my present company.
> 
> Ford and Visteon (a FORD spin off company) were famous at year end (and always right before Christmas) to offer buyouts and downsize their workforce.  In the last 4 years I have been offered multiple times to return to some of the company's I have left.  An old manager of mine literally calls me every quarter and offers me a job in his department because he states he has not been able to find someone with my work ethic (meaning I work a bunch of hours till the job is done). I remember delivering my first child and my company calling me on a landline at the hospital wanting information and data and expected me to put a presentation together. Most Companies have treated their employees very badly for years and now wonder why they have a talent shortage.
> 
> I continue to choose to stay at the Japanese Automotive company I'm working for today, because they respect the mature workforce, they have promoted me multiple times since I have been working for them, and they value their employees.  Our HQ in Michigan has had a less than 4% employee turnover rate, in the past 5 years. our Industry average is 19%.


I so wish I could be shocked you were called in the hospital after delivery.   This is the exact “we own you” crap that is far too common.


----------



## geekette (Dec 24, 2021)

PcflEZFlng said:


> Agree with this. I could have chosen ACA when I retired, but instead chose COBRA for 3 years, after which I chose ACA for one year until becoming eligible for Medicare. My ACA coverage cost (which was unsubsidized) was about the same as what I paid under COBRA, and only slightly less than private pay insurance.
> 
> I am also okay with the premise that ACA is at least a way for people of lesser means to get health insurance. It's one step closer to universal coverage. But in my view, even more of its value comes from allowing those with pre-existing conditions to be able to get coverage at all.


And removal of lifetime cap, which was severe punishment for a baby born with med condition of any kind.   Could hit that cap before age 5.


----------



## geekette (Dec 24, 2021)

slip said:


> The list of things you can do is literally endless depending on your interests. Not to mention spending more time with your children during that age that many people don't get the option to do.
> 
> When you retire and your kids are older, it's not like you are going to travel all the time either. You are going to need variety.
> 
> ...


I have no tolerance for work complainers.   Crap does happen, sometimes people need to vent.   But the chronic complainer gets same response from me every time they start in:   So Quit.     This greatly solved the probl3m of people whining to me about the workplace in the workplace.    Try to solve the issues, accept them,or quit.   I always tried to leave a place better than I found it, sometimes just made my peace w whack crap, and plenty of times quit crazy factories.    Choices.   We all have them.

I do h@ve sympathy for anyone that can’t imagine anything to do with free time.   I don’t understand it, so all I can do is feel sorry for someone that wants noth8ng more from life than toil and title.


----------



## slip (Dec 24, 2021)

geekette said:


> I have no tolerance for work complainers.   Crap does happen, sometimes people need to vent.   But the chronic complainer gets same response from me every time they start in:   So Quit.     This greatly solved the probl3m of people whining to me about the workplace in the workplace.    Try to solve the issues, accept them,or quit.   I always tried to leave a place better than I found it, sometimes just made my peace w whack crap, and plenty of times quit crazy factories.    Choices.   We all have them.
> 
> I do h@ve sympathy for anyone that can’t imagine anything to do with free time.   I don’t understand it, so all I can do is feel sorry for someone that wants noth8ng more from life than toil and title.



My response has been "just retire already" for years now. Then she says she doesn't know what she would do and I say I would rather watch grass than do something everyday that all I do is complain about.

She hasn't brought it up In a while but when I said I was retiring, now she says she'll be the only sibling who is working still. My answer was, you can still retire before me, my last day is February 4rh.


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Dec 24, 2021)

geekette said:


> I so wish I could be shocked you were called in the hospital after delivery.   This is the exact “we own you” crap that is far too common.



I was not shocked at all, and my doctor grabbed the phone away from me and demanded to know the name of the person on the phone and said he was reporting him to every agency he could find... After I came back from maternity leave this boss who was an ass on a good day, kept bending over backwards to be nice to me, I soon transferred to a new department because this ass of a boss was going so overboard with fake kindness that I just could not take it...


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## klpca (Dec 24, 2021)

PcflEZFlng said:


> Agree with this. I could have chosen ACA when I retired, but instead chose COBRA for 3 years, after which I chose ACA for one year until becoming eligible for Medicare. My ACA coverage cost (which was unsubsidized) was about the same as what I paid under COBRA, and only slightly less than private pay insurance.
> 
> I am also okay with the premise that ACA is at least a way for people of lesser means to get health insurance. It's one step closer to universal coverage. But in my view, even more of its value comes from allowing those with pre-existing conditions to be able to get coverage at all.


Our cobra was $1500 per month for a high  deductible health plan. Our ACA policy is definitely less than that.

But it has been an interesting exercise to see what we qualify for.  My brother refuses to buy insurance because he doesn't like being told what to do. He is not employed and my SIL makes $15/hour in her job, so $30k without benefits. They probably qualify for free insurance but won't apply on principle. They told me that they couldn't afford it but I can see that it simply isn't true. People make interesting decisions.


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## PcflEZFlng (Dec 25, 2021)

klpca said:


> Our cobra was $1500 per month for a high  deductible health plan. Our ACA policy is definitely less than that.


I think ACA prices have come down somewhat, probably with better subsidization than before. For comparison, I was paying about $850 per month under COBRA and the ACA cost was roughly the same based on our income. DW was still working at the time and her insurance premiums were 100% employer-paid. She's retired now and paying about $750 through COBRA. If we lived almost entirely off our post-tax savings (not at all a sure bet), she could get the same coverage through ACA for about $350. We'll re-evaluate next year and possibly switch to ACA then. By that time she'll have only a year left before becoming eligible for Medicare.



klpca said:


> But it has been an interesting exercise to see what we qualify for.  My brother refuses to buy insurance because he doesn't like being told what to do. He is not employed and my SIL makes $15/hour in her job, so $30k without benefits. *They probably qualify for free insurance but won't apply on principle.* They told me that they couldn't afford it but I can see that it simply isn't true. *People make interesting decisions.*


They do indeed. Stubborn pride is seldom a good thing.


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## Luanne (Dec 25, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> Your sister and daughter had some good reasons to delay graduation so I would not include them in the laggard categories.


My sister and daughter were just examples of some reasons that it might take students longer than four years to finish college.  There are many students that don't belong in the laggard category.


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## geekette (Dec 25, 2021)

Luanne said:


> My sister and daughter were just examples of some reasons that it might take students longer than four years to finish college.  There are many students that don't belong in the laggard category.


Agree.   I think the idea that “I was able to do this, so everybody should be able to” fails on many fronts.   Laggard is an unsavory label to apply to anyone not meeting arbitrary standards of others.


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## bogey21 (Dec 26, 2021)

Luanne said:


> My sister and daughter were just examples of some reasons that it might take students longer than four years to finish college.  There are many students that don't belong in the laggard category.


Hell, it took me 9 different Universities and 15 years to get my degree.  Followed by a year of Law School at night.  Because of changing schools so often I had almost 5 years of credits to get a 4 year degree.  California Real Estate, Texas history, Geology, Religion, Introduction to Education, etc. didn't count at the school where I finally graduated.   In hindsight it was a great learning experience, different people, different cultures, different cities, etc...

George


----------



## Tia (Dec 26, 2021)

Boomers leaving jobs 

Where I worked for 15 years we'd had a very good manager until 1.5 years ago. After 3 months they found another good manager, but she saw after a year the promises made by upper management they were not going to be fulfilled, she offered to stay and job share but upper management said nada. They hired another manager 'Mr Do Nothing' that started end of March this year. It became obvious to those in the area rather quickly  the new person wasn't going to be even halfway decent. 

I had requested vacation of several weeks for last May, and saw when schedule came out had  only1 week with no explanation. When I questioned it, got a stupid email full of non policy excuses with dim hope things were going to improve. We had lost staff and not being replaced. Threats of extra shifts/call shifts from new manager via email came . So my notice was typed up and walked into HR the 5th of May. On my last day there was a 'retirement cake' our the break room, must of been HR arrange the cake. On my Last Day 'Mr Do Nothing' asked when my last day was and then he wondered if I was covering call the following Saturday or if I had arranged to cover it. I just said 'today is my last day'.  More staff has since left the unit and they finally fired ''Mr Do Nothing' .

Same place to attract new nurse staff they are offering a 10K bonus, but someone is being sneaky as they have dropped the top of the wage scale by $5/hr across the board in all job postings. This last August they had also given a market analysis increases,  which now for new hires they will be paying less then the market analysis + less $5/hr. Can't make it up.


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> I have never known anyone on their death bed to say: "I wish I had worked another 10 years." Though We have met many people that wish they had retired earlier. Our self worth is not bound up in some job. Patti and I planned so we could retire as early as possible.



I know many men that retire with nothing to do and it seems they all end up with bad physical and or mental health. What ever you are doing seems to be working. For me, I was forced out by health but did regain my health and like to have some thing to work on for at least 4 hours each day.


geekette said:


> I do h@ve sympathy for anyone that can’t imagine anything to do with free time. I don’t understand it, so all I can do is feel sorry for someone that wants noth8ng more from life than toil and title.



For many men it is having some thing to do that keeps us mentally and physically healthy. I noticed that I am making up jobs and try to savor the job by not finishing it in a short time unless I have to. I can make a one day job go most of the week but I can also do it in a half day. For the most part, I try not to work myself out of my jobs. 

I know that hobbies are great but there is an extreme satisfaction from a job well done in my case anyway. I should mention that many of these jobs do have a cost so I guess I'm buying my jobs, lol. 

Bill


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I know many men that retire with nothing to do and it seems they all end up with bad physical and or mental health. What ever you are doing seems to be working. For me, I was forced out by health but did regain my health and like to have some thing to work on for at least 4 hours each day.
> 
> 
> For many men it is having some thing to do that keeps us mentally and physically healthy. I noticed that I am making up jobs and try to savor the job by not finishing it in a short time unless I have to. I can make a one day job go most of the week but I can also do it in a half day. For the most part, I try not to work myself out of my jobs.
> ...


“For many men…”? I don’t believe this is related to gender. DW also loves to have something to do most days. Not a job, mind you, she says she just needs to feel like she accomplishes something every day. I, on the other hand, feel great if I have accomplished doing nothing. Well, unless you count going to the beach as something.


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## geist1223 (Dec 26, 2021)

I take Felix to the off lease Dog Park almost every day. This take up 60 to 90 minutes. There is always something to do in the yard or in the House. The other day after taking Felix for his walk I vacuumed the entire down stairs. Patti recently had knee surgery and she has a poor lower back. So I always do the vacuuming. Patti cleans other parts of the House and spends several hours cooking our Dinner. She is a fantastic cook.

Once a week Patti creates the Dinner Menus for the Week. Then goes through the Frig, Freezers and Cupboards to determine what we will need to buy. Fresh Vegetables are bought several times during the week. I keep track of the Costco Sale Items. Also on my Cellular Telephone I have the Safeway and Fred Meyer (Kroger) Applications. So I can go through and "Clip" the sale items we need or want to buy. Then I can look at my List on the Cellular Telephone while at the store. We tend to shop together about 95% of the time. Whether it is for groceries, a new toilet, whatever.


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## Luanne (Dec 26, 2021)

When Steve and I retired he felt that we would both need to find part time jobs in order to keep ourselves busy.  Well, we found plenty to keep us busy and haven't worked a day since we retired.  My brother in law (who is my age 71) still hasn't retired.  I don't think he ever will.  I think if the man stops he'll die.  My sister has somewhat excepted that.


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## Brett (Dec 26, 2021)

for the boomers


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> “For many men…”? I don’t believe this is related to gender. DW also loves to have something to do most days. Not a job, mind you, she says she just needs to feel like she accomplishes something every day. I, on the other hand, feel great if I have accomplished doing nothing. Well, unless you count going to the beach as something.



I didn't mean to leave out the gals. My wife says taking care of me is a full time job. She must like it because I'm still breathing air. 

Bill


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## bogey21 (Dec 26, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> I take Felix to the off leash Dog Park almost every day. This take up 60 to 90 minutes.



Back when I was living alone my German Shepherd "Duke" and I went to a 3-acre Dog Park every day.  I interacted with all kinds of people, some only once and many multiple times and "Duke" made many friends both canine and human. Many days we would spend 2-3 hours there.  When it was time to leave for home, I would head for the gate and "Duke" would miraculously find me.  Dog parks are great...

George


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## MrockStar (Dec 26, 2021)

joestein said:


> It makes it worse.    Generations growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self.    The worst thing to ever happen to poor people was welfare - it stole their motivation.


And ther soul


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## Brett (Dec 26, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> And ther soul



but is the poster correct  in that boomers "growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self."    ?  ... 

generational shakeup unfolds as *boomers begin to step aside*

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/11...nal-shakeup-unfolds-boomers-begin-step-aside/

Older bosses, slowly and often reluctantly, are giving up their power

The baby boomers who still run most of the nation’s business, cultural, and political bastions have been slow to move out of the corner office. There’s a lot to lose: The big salary. Access and influence. Business lunches and first-class travel. Staffs waiting on their word and whim.

A changing of the guard is already underway. But as their generation begins its long goodbye after dominating American life for the past three decades, the boomers at the very top are sure to be among the last holdouts. From Patriots football coach Bill Belichick to Senator Elizabeth Warren to film director Steven Spielberg, many are already plowing ahead into their late 60s or 70s — if not beyond.


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> And ther soul


Happy Holidays! I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday and the thought of anyone being less fortunate than you never, ever crossed your mind. I mean what would Christmas and the story of Jesus really mean if we actually had to think about others who may not have been born or raised the way you were. Thank you for showing the true spirit of Christmas to all of us!


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## MrockStar (Dec 26, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> Happy Holidays! I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday and the thought of anyone being less fortunate than you never, ever crossed your mind. I mean what would Christmas and the story of Jesus really mean if we actually had to think about others who may not have been born or raised the way you were. Thank you for showing the true spirit of Christmas to all of us!


I donated to many charities just before Christmas this year and also to thrift shops all year when I can. But you don't know me very well do you? As a Christian all my life iam well aware of the need around me and have been in need my self when layed off just before Christmas  when i was younger. So save it for someone else please. Peace and joy to your family.


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> I donated to many charities just before Christmas this year and also to thrift shops all year when I can. But you don't know me very well do you? As a Christian all my life iam well aware of the need around me and have been in need my self when layed off just before Christmas  when i was younger. So save it for someone else please. Peace and joy to your family.


So, what, or whom, were you referring to with your previous post?


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## MrockStar (Dec 26, 2021)

I was referring to government social welfare creating generation dependency and lack of a work ethic.


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## Brett (Dec 26, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> I was referring to government social welfare creating generation dependency and lack of a work ethic.



But are "boomers" on government social welfare generation dependency and lack "work ethic"
.
And are people in the US military on "government social welfare" ?


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## MrockStar (Dec 26, 2021)

Brett said:


> But are "boomers" on government social welfare generation dependency and lack "work ethic"
> .
> And are people in the US military on "government social welfare" ?


No, most are not.


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## Brett (Dec 26, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> No, most are not.



great - most of the military does not work for the government and does not lack the _*"work ethic"  *_


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

When in reality, government social welfare is the collective citizenry ensuring that those who are less fortunate are not left to hunger and illness because they don’t have the means to pay for food, shelter and medicines that most of us take for granted. The vast majority of whom are at a severe disadvantage in our society because they were born into poverty and through no fault of their own, lack education, training, transportation, and just the basic knowledge of how to improve their lives. Many have mental health issues for which they have no way of seeking treatment. Generation dependency? Lack of work ethic? What on earth are you talking about? You sound like you’re spouting talking points from antigovernment zealots on TV. I’m curious. How do you determine if someone is truly in need and worthy of your donation, or if they simply have no work ethic or soul?


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

Brett said:


> great - most of the military does not work for the government and does not lack the _*"work ethic"  *_


Whew! Thank God for that!


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

Hmmm. “Lack of work ethic”? ”soul”?


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> How do you determine if someone is truly in need and worthy of your donation, or if they simply have no work ethic or soul?



In my experience, often times you can't really tell. Knowing these things doesn't matter that much too me. If some one asks for help, I help. I have thought the reason for much of my success is I give to others when they ask. I noticed throughout my life that when I'm in need, providence has always come through. 

When I was very young the lesson we learned was our actions make our life. When you do good things to others, good thing happen for you. When you do evil to others, evil things happen for you. I guess it's the come around goes around saying. 

Bill


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## Rolltydr (Dec 26, 2021)

easyrider said:


> In my experience, often times you can't really tell. Knowing these things doesn't matter that much too me. If some one asks for help, I help. I have thought the reason for much of my success is I give to others when they ask. I noticed throughout my life that when I'm in need, providence has always come through.
> 
> When I was very young the lesson we learned was our actions make our life. When you do good things to others, good thing happen for you. When you do evil to others, evil things happen for you. I guess it's the come around goes around saying.
> 
> Bill


Bill, this is exactly my point to MRockStar. Unless you only help people who you know intimately, you have no idea if they are truly needy or not. Does social welfare help some who are not needy or that could help themselves more than they do? Of course. But, the alternative is to help no one. I don’t want to live in a world, or a country, that doesn’t believe it’s most sacred responsibility is to care for its people.


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## geist1223 (Dec 26, 2021)

Boy this discussion is going down hill. I can faintly hear someone saying some of my best friends are impoverished folks.


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## geist1223 (Dec 26, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Back when I was living alone my German Shepherd "Duke" and I went to a 3-acre Dog Park every day.  I interacted with all kinds of people, some only once and many multiple times and "Duke" made many friends both canine and human. Many days we would spend 2-3 hours there.  When it was time to leave for home, I would head for the gate and "Duke" would miraculously find me.  Dog parks are great...
> 
> George



Our Dog Park is over 100 acres. It has large open fields, areas with tall grass and bushes, and woods. If you hit a hard surface path you have left the Off Leash Dog Park. We have a great time. Though this time of year I often need to wear a Rain Suit and Rubber Boots. Felix wears an insulated Blaze Orange Cover up.


----------



## northwoodsgal (Dec 26, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> Many boomers were raised and greatly influenced by parents and grandparents who grew up, raised families, etc. during the Depression. Our grandfathers, great uncles, fathers, uncles, etc. fought in WW l and ll. For those at home the economies learned and practiced during the Depression continued with the shortages and rationing in WWll. Many of us still do some of those thrifty things we picked up from our grandmothers, mothers, aunts. We grew up with the threat of a nuclear attack and the drills at school in the event one should happen. Also with the threat of being invaded by the Russians. Many of us probably remember the 1966 movie: _The Russians Are Coming._
> 
> While these events would seem like history to younger generations they were talked about and lived like they just happened by the people who raised us and lived around us. These events and the people who lived them greatly shaped and influenced our generation.




Jan, I was going to post the same thing.  I'm at the end of the Baby Boomers but I grew up with a parents and grandparents who impressed the importance of fighting for freedoms and knew what it was like to be truly poor.


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## emeryjre (Dec 27, 2021)

Don't know if this example was brought up earlier, but here I go.

  Was in Fargo last weekend for a Christmas get together.  Fargo is home to North Dakota State University.  Several family members graduated from there and I suspect several of the younger generation will do the same.

  None of the family lives in Fargo, but rather in surrounding areas.  Everyone was amazed at the lack of workers at the local restaurants, retail stores, etc. etc.  Our family members that graduated 10-12 years ago all worked part time jobs while attending college and pretty much graduated with no college loan debt.

  While sitting at the hotel bar and talking with the young bartender, we found out that he was in a graduate program and expected to graduate in the spring.  We asked him if his friends were working.  He said a very small percentage of his class worked part time or full time.  He said that the majority of the students he knew were living on large student loans (20k and higher) per year.  When we asked about how they felt about having 120K plus debt upon graduating with a 4 year degree, the answer amazed us. 

He said most of them did not expect to have to pay the loan back.  They feel that the government will come in and forgive the debt and they will be home free.

He said that he did not believe the debt would be forgiven and he did not want to be in debt in any case.

How many college students are doing the same thing and have left the workforce to live off of student loans?


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## Rolltydr (Dec 27, 2021)

I find it interesting, if not ironic, that, according to one bartender, students who mostly entered college when the conservative party controlled congress and the presidency, believed government would forgive their student loan debt. I don’t know any conservative that believes that should happen and there aren’t enough votes among democrats to make it happen. So why do they believe this? 

Also, I’ve seen polls showing that half of millennials believe SS will not be funded for their generation. I’m not sure why they would believe government would take care of them now but not later.


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## emeryjre (Dec 27, 2021)

I have no idea what they think or why.  

I do know that students in Fargo, ND are not working part time at jobs in restaurants or retail.  

We had difficulty getting served breakfast at IHOP because they were short staffed.  

We had difficulty ordering pizza at Domino's because they were short staffed.  

We walked out of Starbucks because it was running 15 to 20 minutes for coffee and it was short staffed.

Went to Olive Garden where niece had worked several years earlier.  She spoke with a manager that still remembered her.  Manager said that she had no students working in the restaurant because she could not find any that would work.

Anecdotal evidence only, but I was just asking the question about where has the part time student labor gone.

As to what I believe should happen.  I think it would be a great disservice to the many students that have worked hard, paid their debts and never expected to be the recipient of government largess at such a grand scale..

As to seniors, show me one administration that has done anything for seniors in the last 20 years.


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## Rolltydr (Dec 27, 2021)

emeryjre said:


> I have no idea what they think or why.
> 
> I do know that students in Fargo, ND are not working part time at jobs in restaurants or retail.
> 
> ...


Just a couple of examples to answer your last question:
The Older Americans Act, first passed in 1965, has been reauthorized 3 times in the past 20 years by both republican and democratic administrations and congresses. Although older individuals may receive services under many other federal programs, today the OAA is considered to be a major vehicle for the organization and delivery of social and nutrition services to seniors and their caregivers.

The covid vaccine was developed with funding provided by a republican administration and distributed to seniors first by a democratic administration.

And to offer some anecdotal evidence that people are indeed still eating in restaurants and young people are still working in them; we have been in St. Augustine FL for since shortly before Thanksgiving. We eat out or get takeout almost every day. The restaurants are usually very busy and they all have young people, many of whom I assume are students, working in them. It’s been a pleasure to eat in many good restaurants and tne service has been great.

I know there have been many restaurants that have gone out of business or reduced hours in the past couple of years. Restaurants have always had a high failure rate. It is a very tough business and always has been. I also know there is data showing workers of all ages, not just young college students, have quit their low paying jobs and moved into higher paying jobs. I always thought that was what was supposed to happen. The unemployment rate is going down. More people are joining the workforce AND earning higher wages. Why now, is that considered a bad thing?


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## emeryjre (Dec 27, 2021)

OK, so mark you down for college students are still seeking part time work based on your experience And observation.

As far as seniors go, 3 administrations have renewed legislation that originated in 1965.

Vaccines development.  Big fan of mRNA vaccines and believe the science is a big part of medical treatments going forward.  Did not see the benefit to seniors until you pointed it out.  Triple Shot with Pfizer for me.


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## geekette (Dec 27, 2021)

What do seniors need that has been ignored for decades?   Not childcare or paid leave.   SS gets COLA.   Medicare chugs along.   There are some tax breaks, including state level prop taxes.   Estate tax got a tweak to help wealthy elders.

guess I’m not clear on any issue specific to seniors that has been ignored for a long time?   Note that I am not a senior.


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## SmithOp (Dec 28, 2021)

I wonder if the sparse population of the Dakotas is a factor? Or as Bill Maher says, why are there two Dakotas?

As far as student loans, I know very little, didn’t use them. I worked and used GI Bill to pay for college. I do know my sister in law is in her 50s and still has student loan debt, she is an elementary school teacher. I kid her that if she waits long enough she can pay it off with her SS.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## joestein (Dec 28, 2021)

Brett said:


> but is the poster correct  in that boomers "growing up on public benefits with no goal of improving one's self."    ?  ...
> 
> generational shakeup unfolds as *boomers begin to step aside*
> 
> ...



My original post mentioned generations on welfare - my boomers comments was not in connection to this.

Also - Your examples of bosses - are very unique situations - do not apply to 99.9% of corner office occupants.      Business lunches and first class travel?  Staffs waiting on their word or whim?   I have worked at very large private business for over 20 years and my wife has worked at 2 very large financial firms - none of this stuff goes on.   

Maybe back in the 90s - there was still some of this going on - but all companies have clamped down on their expenses.  Everyone runs a tight ship these days.  Forgot lunches & First Class Travel - they are keeping track of copy paper usage and pens.

Joe


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## joestein (Dec 28, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> I find it interesting, if not ironic, that, according to one bartender, students who mostly entered college when the conservative party controlled congress and the presidency, believed government would forgive their student loan debt. I don’t know any conservative that believes that should happen and there aren’t enough votes among democrats to make it happen. So why do they believe this?
> 
> Also, I’ve seen polls showing that half of millennials believe SS will not be funded for their generation. I’m not sure why they would believe government would take care of them now but not later.


Those are separate generations - Most college students are generation Z - the generation after.

Most likely they think SS wont be around from them - because they see them wasting it on things like college debt forgiveness.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Dec 28, 2021)

joestein said:


> Maybe back in the 90s - there was still some of this going on - but all companies have clamped down on their expenses.  Everyone runs a tight ship these days.  Forgot lunches & First Class Travel - they are keeping track of copy paper usage and pens.
> 
> Joe



Yep. The accountants and evil HR have taken over. I have even heard of companies not paying for breakfast while employees travel anymore.  Where I worked it was $25/meal and $50 for dinner. (I rarely spent that much but it was nice to know that I could.) No one can travel to conferences anymore - except maybe top brass. Some companies even suck up your frequent flyer miles. These were small benefits for the inconvenience of not being home.

The compliance and rules have become oppressive and difficult (if not impossible) to do one's job. This is why working in Corporate America sucks and everyone who can is jumping ship.


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## bogey21 (Dec 28, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Yep. The accountants and evil HR have taken over. I have even heard of companies not paying for breakfast while employees travel anymore.  Where I worked it was $25/meal and $50 for dinner.


Back in the 90s I was President of a large organization.  I had a simple rule.  No-one could take a business trip if the one way airfare was over $300 and the hotel over $100 per night (with higher limits for NYC and Washington DC) without my personal approval.  I also had daily meal cap which no-one ever violated or if they did were not reimbursed for.  Employees made their own reservations and kept their FF miles.  I had very few requests for variances...

George


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 28, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Back in the 90s I was President of a large organization.  I had a simple rule.  No-one could take a business trip if the one way airfare was over $300 and the hotel over $100 per night (with higher limits for NYC and Washington DC) without my personal approval.  I also had daily meal cap which no-one ever violated or if they did were not reimbursed for.  Employees made their own reservations and kept their FF miles.  I had very few requests for variances...
> 
> George



George, question.

How many management levels between you (as President) and say - a working computer programmer. Not the Project manager, or the team lead, but the actual rubber-on-the-road programmer?


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## Rolltydr (Dec 28, 2021)

joestein said:


> My original post mentioned generations on welfare - my boomers comments was not in connection to this.
> 
> Also - Your examples of bosses - are very unique situations - do not apply to 99.9% of corner office occupants.      Business lunches and first class travel?  Staffs waiting on their word or whim?   I have worked at very large private business for over 20 years and my wife has worked at 2 very large financial firms - none of this stuff goes on.
> 
> ...





joestein said:


> My original post mentioned generations on welfare - my boomers comments was not in connection to this.
> 
> Also - Your examples of bosses - are very unique situations - do not apply to 99.9% of corner office occupants.      Business lunches and first class travel?  Staffs waiting on their word or whim?   I have worked at very large private business for over 20 years and my wife has worked at 2 very large financial firms - none of this stuff goes on.
> 
> ...


Every now and then, I have to unignore someone in order to remind myself why I ignored them in the first place. This was one such time.

“…do not apply to 99.9% of corner office occupants.” “Everyone runs a tight ship these days.”

You’re just making crap up! Do you truly believe this stuff? Corporate execs are the good guys but kids who refuse to work and serve us for low pay and little or no benefits are ruining the country?
Now I remember why I was ignoring you.


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## Janann (Dec 28, 2021)

emeryjre said:


> I was just asking the question about where has the part time student labor gone.


Students have found ways to make money beyond customer-facing retail and restaurant work:

Driving and/or shopping for grocery delivery, restaurant delivery, etc.
Creating "click bait" videos and photos for YouTube, Instagram, etc.  There is real money to be made.
Selling either new or used stuff online.  Once in a while I hear about a college student who has taken over his/her dorm room with online athletic shoe inventory.  
Online, work-from-home customer service reps, which are needed by some companies 24/7.
My point is that there are plenty of flexible part-time jobs and opportunities out there.  If you don't see young adults working retail, they might have found something better.


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## joestein (Dec 28, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> Every now and then, I have to unignore someone in order to remind myself why I ignored them in the first place. This was one such time.
> 
> “…do not apply to 99.9% of corner office occupants.” “Everyone runs a tight ship these days.”
> 
> ...



Feel free to ignore me again.   Especially if your idea of corner executive are Bill Belichick, Steven Spielberg and Elizabeth Warren.   Like those are the average corner executives.   Plus your comments are not particularly germane to my comment.   We were discussing lavish expenses vs cost cutting.   I didn't comment on anyone being a hero or a villain.  That is all coming from you.

Most corner executives are just normal people who worked hard to get where they are.   They aren't necessarily good guys or bad guys.   But I found most of them fall into the good category - though not all.


----------



## joestein (Dec 28, 2021)

geekette said:


> What do seniors need that has been ignored for decades?   Not childcare or paid leave.   SS gets COLA.   Medicare chugs along.   There are some tax breaks, including state level prop taxes.   Estate tax got a tweak to help wealthy elders.
> 
> guess I’m not clear on any issue specific to seniors that has been ignored for a long time?   Note that I am not a senior.


I would say medicare.    Medicare with a decent supplemental is $100s a month.  Not so great for seniors who are on a very tight budget.     Allowing seniors to buy drugs from other countries and allowing Medicare to bid on drugs would go a long way to cutting drug costs.

Also... stopping the constant buyout and shutdown of generic drug makers would create much needed competition in the marketplace.  Maybe insulin wouldn't cost 10X what it did 20 years ago.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 28, 2021)

Janann said:


> Students have found ways to make money beyond customer-facing retail and restaurant work:
> 
> Driving and/or shopping for grocery delivery, restaurant delivery, etc.
> Creating "click bait" videos and photos for YouTube, Instagram, etc.  There is real money to be made.
> ...


You make a good point. I think kids are more entrepreneurial than our generation which is great. In our generation the ideal job was working for a F500 or Big Consultancy or Goldman. Now more choice with startups.

I have a nephew who is making more money selling gaming NFTs than his college grad job at a bank. He is preparing to quit his day job he is making so much money.

My DD made great money as a math and physics tutor and could dictate her hours around school. She was able to get groups of students for her sessions on campus. Up to 10 ppl attended and paid $10 or more via Venmo. That's $100 per hour for her and $10 is cheap for students compared with $60/hour for formal tutoring centers. Plus no need to leave campus.

Why mess around with $15/hour?


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## MrockStar (Dec 28, 2021)

You are much further ahead controlling your own hours/pay/opportunities in the open/free market than working in a corporation/job.


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## needvaca (Dec 28, 2021)

They’re all mining cryptos. Seriously, my nephews and many of their friends are making good money with this


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## djohn06 (Dec 29, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I just watched a segment on "60 Minutes" on TV the other night about low-income wage earners (mostly black...surprise, surprise) in Alabama,  They had raw sewage draining into their surrounding yards because there is no sewage system and they are too poor to afford a septic system.  I found it heart wrenching.  It has some similarities to the situation we have in some remote northern communities here in Canada.
> 
> When I did some checking to confirm the hourly wage they quoted, I must admit to being somewhat shocked.  Alabama is one of five states with NO minimum wage, so the federal minimum wage of only $7.25/hr. applies.  There are another 15 states where the minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage.  So jobs with an hourly minimum rate of *below* $7.50/hr. do potentially still exist in 40% of US states!



So that I am not jumping to conclusions here, what does your “surprise surprise” comment on low income wage earners being mostly black mean?

White Americans receive 37 percent of all SNAP benefits in America, followed by African Americans at 26 percent.  Just curious what your comment means.


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## needvaca (Dec 29, 2021)

djohn06 said:


> So that I am not jumping to conclusions here, what does your “surprise surprise” comment on low income wage earners being mostly black mean?
> 
> White Americans receive 37 percent of all SNAP benefits in America, followed by African Americans at 26 percent.  Just curious what your comment means.


I think he meant it in regard to Alabama allowing the black community to have raw sewage flowing into their yards. Similar to how governments mainly seem to disenfranchise poor black communities. Like Flint and Benton Harbor MI with their poisoned drinking water, like closures of schools and voting locations in poor black communities. These crises seem to disproportionately happen in black communities.
I think he was commenting more on the situation in Alabama, not the people


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## djohn06 (Dec 29, 2021)

Janann said:


> Students have found ways to make money beyond customer-facing retail and restaurant work:
> 
> Driving and/or shopping for grocery delivery, restaurant delivery, etc.
> Creating "click bait" videos and photos for YouTube, Instagram, etc.  There is real money to be made.
> ...



This and many high schoolers aren’t working period.  Since 2000 the percentage of high schoolers working dropped from 50 percent to 33 percent.


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## Chrispee (Dec 29, 2021)

djohn06 said:


> So that I am not jumping to conclusions here, what does your “surprise surprise” comment on low income wage earners being mostly black mean?
> 
> White Americans receive 37 percent of all SNAP benefits in America, followed by African Americans at 26 percent.  Just curious what your comment means.



With 76.3% of the USA's population being white and 14.2% being black your statistics make a pretty compelling case for what @CanuckTravlr was getting at, although it would appear that wasn't your intention.


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## djohn06 (Dec 29, 2021)

Chrispee said:


> With 76.3% of the USA's population being white and 14.2% being black your statistics make a pretty compelling case for what @CanuckTravlr was getting at, although it would appear that wasn't your intention.



Not sure what @CanuckTravlr was getting at.  That’s why I asked the question.
Also, the poster ahead of you @needvaca had a different interpretation as well.


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## Rolltydr (Dec 29, 2021)

djohn06 said:


> Not sure what @CanuckTravlr was getting at.  That’s why I asked the question.
> Also, the poster ahead of you @needvaca had a different interpretation as well.


@needvaca can soeak for herself but I don’t believe it’s a different interpretation at all. I lived in Alabama for the past 65 years, just recently escaping. The majority white state government, and some local governments, create the circumstances that enable the conditions the poor black population in what is known as the Black Belt (named for the soil in southwest Alabama, not the people) must endure. As for the urban areas of Birmingham and Montgomery which have a majority black populace and black government leadership, the state legislature has largely taken away any power they have by eliminating local rule, thereby, forcing them to go to the legislature for funding to do much of anything. With a legislature completely dominated by white conservatives, you can imagine how successful those attempts are. So, imho, there is a direct correlation between a black populace of 14% collecting SNAP benefits, as well as other so-called welfare benefits, at a rate twice that amount.


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## joestein (Dec 29, 2021)

> @needvaca can soeak for herself but I don’t believe it’s a different interpretation at all. I lived in Alabama for the past 65 years, just recently escaping. The majority white state government, and some local governments, create the circumstances that enable the conditions the poor black population in what is known as the Black Belt (named for the soil in southwest Alabama, not the people) must endure. As for the urban areas of Birmingham and Montgomery which have a majority black populace and black government leadership, the state legislature has largely taken away any power they have by eliminating local rule, thereby, forcing them to go to the legislature for funding to do much of anything. With a legislature completely dominated by white conservatives, you can imagine how successful those attempts are. So, imho, there is a direct correlation between a black populace of 14% collecting SNAP benefits, as well as other so-called welfare benefits, at a rate twice that amount.



I don't really know much about Alabama, but if the situation is really as you describe it, why don't families just go elsewhere.  It is a big country with a lot of opportunity out there these days.   

I stay where I am because of my job.  I actually love where I live, but the cost of living is obscene.  Taxes and Insurance are through the roof.   If my job says I don't have to ever come in again - I will move in a moment.


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## am1 (Dec 29, 2021)

joestein said:


> I don't really know much about Alabama, but if the situation is really as you describe it, why don't families just go elsewhere.  It is a big country with a lot of opportunity out there these days.
> 
> I stay where I am because of my job.  I actually love where I live, but the cost of living is obscene.  Taxes and Insurance are through the roof.   If my job says I don't have to ever come in again - I will move in a moment.


That is where family/friends are and cost of living is cheap.  No money to move.  Are my guesses.


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## bogey21 (Dec 29, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> George, question.
> 
> How many management levels between you (as President) and say - a working computer programmer. Not the Project manager, or the team lead, but the actual rubber-on-the-road programmer?


One.  But I had a practice of walking the floors daily and talking to lower level employees.  In addition my office door was almost always open.  Any employee who wanted to could look in and if I didn't have someone in my office or I wasn't on the phone, they could knock and come in and talk to me...

George


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## CanuckTravlr (Dec 29, 2021)

djohn06 said:


> So that I am not jumping to conclusions here, what does your “surprise surprise” comment on low income wage earners being mostly black mean?
> 
> White Americans receive 37 percent of all SNAP benefits in America, followed by African Americans at 26 percent.  Just curious what your comment means.



I thought it was quite obvious what my comment meant, and I think @needvaca, @Chrispee, and @Rolltydr have so eloquently explained it.  I think you understood it as well, so no need to jump to conclusions, but for sake of clarity I shall add to my comments at the risk of taking this into the area of contentious comments, which I was trying to avoid.

I am an economist by training and a CPA (Canadian) by profession.  I know how to use statistics.  My training always cautioned me to avoid the selective use of statistics.  You can try to ignore or deflect the realities by claiming that poor whites outnumber poor blacks.  While in absolute numbers that may be true, it does not reflect the proportion of each group that suffers in poverty.

I am a 72-year old Canadian who has spent time almost every year of my life in the USA and have probably seen more of it than most Americans, having so far visited 37 of the 50 states.  I have been around long enough to remember the protest by Rosa Parks in Montgomery in 1955, and the Billy clubs used by the cops in Selma in 1965.  I also personally felt it necessary to dress down a "good old boy" first-class seatmate in his mid-50s from Mobile, on an Eastern Airlines flight between Atlanta and Daytona Beach in 1975.  He had just commented to me about the "black b*tch" flight attendant who had been nothing but polite in serving us.  Just to be clear, I am a privileged white male, but I was quite frankly shocked at his outright display of racism.

I'm not saying that we don't have some people here in Canada with similar attitudes, or that we don't have our own issues with the treatment of certain minorities, especially the indigenous.  But my comments were specifically aimed at the long-standing issues in the State of Alabama.  While I thought my previous comments were relatively obvious, hopefully this clears up any ambiguity, although I suspect that wasn't really the issue!


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 29, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> One.  But I had a practice of walking the floors daily and talking to lower level employees.  In addition my office door was almost always open.  Any employee who wanted to could look in and if I didn't have someone in my office or I wasn't on the phone, they could knock and come in and talk to me...
> 
> George



I find your answer confusing. You did performance reviews for all the individual in the large company?

The life insurance company I once worked for had 19 levels of management between the CEO and me (I counted once for sardonic amusement.)
The "big three" money center bank I worked for was harder to count, but I counted at least 10 levels between the CEO and me. (I couldn't talk to the CEO, he was 2,000+ miles away. . . ) That was the company who stated (in a low level manager meeting for which I was a fill-in for my immediate supervisor) that if you didn't like someone under you, just "manage them to fail". 

To people who are at the "bottom of the stack", Dilbert is very real, and always has been. . .


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## bogey21 (Dec 29, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I find your answer confusing. You did performance reviews for all the individual in the large company?


Naturally not.  I had about 400 employees and personal interaction with many of them.  Often, but obviously not always, when an employee was getting an extraordinary review or a very negative one I would talk to the reviewer and as appropriate talk to the employee receiving the review.  Not always.  Some fell through the cracks.  On the other hand I generally knew those who were considered exceptional and those who were considered not to be meeting expectations.  But let's face it, there are only so many hours in the day...

George


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 29, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Naturally not.  I had about 400 employees and personal interaction with many of them.  Often, but obviously not always, when an employee was getting an extraordinary review or a very negative one I would talk to the reviewer and as appropriate talk to the employee receiving the review.  Not always.  Some fell through the cracks.  On the other hand I generally knew those who were considered exceptional and those who were considered not to be meeting expectations.  But let's face it, there are only so many hours in the day...
> 
> George


George, 400 people is not particularly large, compared to companies with 10,000 or more workers, often strung all over the country, and sometimes all over the world. (I think the "Big Three" money center bank was over 100,000 employees, but don't quote me on that.) Those are very, very different worlds.

It's why I became a contractor. Go in, do a job, and leave. None of this "where do you expect to be in five years". Honest understanding and acceptance of that every job was temporary. (No having your job as an employee put on an auction block and be sold to the highest bidder (1989) (1997) (2003).)

RSE


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## joestein (Dec 29, 2021)

am1 said:


> That is where family/friends are and cost of living is cheap.  No money to move.  Are my guesses.



A lot of towns are paying people to move there.  There are articles where they offer $10K to move to a town.


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## am1 (Dec 29, 2021)

joestein said:


> A lot of towns are paying people to move there.  There are articles where they offer $10K to move to a town.


Yes I have seen that but I doubt many of the people in this thread are interested in relocating there.  

A lot of reasons contribute to poverty.  A lot people change and a lot  people can but do not.  Sadly poverty will always exist.


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## geekette (Dec 29, 2021)

joestein said:


> I don't really know much about Alabama, but if the situation is really as you describe it, why don't families just go elsewhere.  It is a big country with a lot of opportunity out there these days.
> 
> I stay where I am because of my job.  I actually love where I live, but the cost of living is obscene.  Taxes and Insurance are through the roof.   If my job says I don't have to ever come in again - I will move in a moment.


How do you propose poor people move?   Moving is e pensive for those with means.   Nearly impossible for those without, especially if Without also means without personal vehicle.


eta.   Posted before I saw the paying people to move th8ng.    I still think those low on the economic ladder are unable to get these offers as it is not uncommon to weed out applicants with credit Checks.   The deck is stacked.   There is no equal opportunity for all.


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## joestein (Dec 29, 2021)

geekette said:


> How do you propose poor people move?   Moving is e pensive for those with means.   Nearly impossible for those without, especially if Without also means without personal vehicle.
> 
> 
> eta.   Posted before I saw the paying people to move th8ng.    I still think those low on the economic ladder are unable to get these offers as it is not uncommon to weed out applicants with credit Checks.   The deck is stacked.   There is no equal opportunity for all.



Everyone is a victim.....


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## geekette (Dec 29, 2021)

joestein said:


> Everyone is a victim.....


What a gross statement.


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## bogey21 (Dec 29, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> George, 400 people is not particularly large..



True but we did have $30 Billion in Assets which is not chump change...

George


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## bogey21 (Dec 29, 2021)

geekette said:


> How do you propose poor people move?   Moving is e pensive for those with means.   Nearly impossible for those without, especially if Without also means without personal vehicle.



Early in my career I moved around the country a lot.  I filled my Volvo with the things most important to me.  All the rest I sold, gave away or trashed...

George


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## geekette (Dec 29, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Early in my career I moved around the country a lot.  I filled my Volvo with the things most important to me.  All the rest I sold, gave away or trashed...
> 
> George


So you owned a car.   How many kids did it fit?


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 29, 2021)

geekette said:


> So you owned a car.   How many kids did it fit?


Our first car was a 1973 Toyota Corona Deluxe, brand new the day we got married (we bought it), green in color, and we were known to pack three kids, and three adults (Rick's mom went with us) for trips to the mountains, plus gear in that small trunk for all of us.  This was before car seats were the law.  Finally in 1987 we bought a gorgeous used Suburban.  We decided the kids should have seat belts.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 30, 2021)

northwoodsgal said:


> Jan, I was going to post the same thing.  I'm at the end of the Baby Boomers but I grew up with a parents and grandparents who impressed the importance of fighting for freedoms and knew what it was like to be truly poor.



I'm also at the very tail end of being a baby boomer. My grandparents lived thru the depression and my father was born in 1928 and was a saver all his life and instilled that in me.  I was an only child and he drilled into me that it was always important to stand on your own two feet. That you always have to have the ability to provide for yourself and your children. 

I worked at one company for the bulk of my career and that company went bankrupt and so did my pension, so I picked myself up and kept looking for jobs and opportunities that would ensure I could retire. After many dud's I found a company that treats me right, pays me market value and allows my work schedule to be flexible. I had to add a few more years onto my work life then I had originally planned for back in the late 90"s but I'm willing to work till I'm 65 so that I'm not a burden on my kids.

Life throws all kinds of curve balls and you have to be willing to keep swinging so that you can achieve the goals you set for yourself...I'm not going to be able to retire and be on easy street like I had planned, due to my pension going away but I will have a good life in retirement and I will be content.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 30, 2021)

joestein said:


> Feel free to ignore me again.   Especially if your idea of corner executive are Bill Belichick, Steven Spielberg and Elizabeth Warren.   Like those are the average corner executives.   Plus your comments are not particularly germane to my comment.   We were discussing lavish expenses vs cost cutting.   I didn't comment on anyone being a hero or a villain.  That is all coming from you.
> 
> Most corner executives are just normal people who worked hard to get where they are.   They aren't necessarily good guys or bad guys.   But I found most of them fall into the good category - though not all.



I went to lunch yesterday with a good friend / former colleague who is now a partner at a big public accounting firm, she and I worked 12-14 hour days back in those early days and I got out of public accounting as I wanted to have a family and knew I could not sustain having a child and working that many hours. She kept at and after 29 years they finally made her a partner.  She said it took me this long to make it to the top and I'm not retiring now until I enjoy a few more years of this success and I can not blame her... She is a corner office executive and worked so damn hard to get to where she is at today.  She is a compassionate leader who is one of the good guys...


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## joestein (Dec 30, 2021)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I went to lunch yesterday with a good friend / former colleague who is now a partner at a big public accounting firm, she and I worked 12-14 hour days back in those early days and I got out of public accounting as I wanted to have a family and knew I could not sustain having a child and working that many hours. She kept at and after 29 years they finally made her a partner.  She said it took me this long to make it to the top and I'm not retiring now until I enjoy a few more years of this success and I can not blame her... She is a corner office executive and worked so damn hard to get to where she is at today.  She is a compassionate leader who is one of the good guys...



Is she at a 'big 4'?   Most of them have a mandatory partner retirement age of 60-62.  Gotta make room for the lower ranks to rise up.

Though there have been lawsuits - so I believe that it might be more of an 'unspoken' rule these days.


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## dayooper (Dec 30, 2021)

djohn06 said:


> This and many high schoolers aren’t working period.  Since 2000 the percentage of high schoolers working dropped from 50 percent to 33 percent.



Families are choosing to “invest” in their high school aged children extra-curricular activities. The amount of time after school and club sports take is mind boggling (not to mention the money). We have families that are out of school almost every Friday for hockey tournaments and don‘t even get me started on the high level club soccer.

Triple A youth hockey is huge here in Michigan. There are a couple of programs that if you join, you are required to transfer to their online academy so it won’t disrupt their practice schedule. Many of the colleges and junior hockey programs get their players from these teams.


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## bogey21 (Dec 30, 2021)

geekette said:


> So you owned a car.   How many kids did it fit?


Two front seats, a large back seat which would hold 3 kids, and a trunk...

George


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 30, 2021)

+1 @dayooper Our DD was a competitive high school athlete and received a scholarship to a D1 school. This took a lot of time and travel so no time for a high school or college job except for her tutoring gigs. Her sport was her job (and paid a good portion of college). Loved those years supporting her as an athlete.

I would add that many students these days are at tutoring and prepping for college admissions. I worked part-time when I was 16 for spending money so do not believe I would have gotten into my alma mater now with the grades and test scores I had in high school.  Now requires more time and effort and so a student has less time to take on a regular part-time job.


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## Janann (Dec 30, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 @dayooper Our DD was a competitive high school athlete and received a scholarship to a D1 school. This took a lot of time and travel so no time for a high school or college job except for her tutoring gigs. Her sport was her job (and paid a good portion of college). Loved those years supporting her.
> 
> I would add that many students these days are at tutoring and prepping for college admissions. I worked when I was 16 so do not believe I would have gotten into my alma mater now with the grades and test scores I had in high school.  Now would require more time and thus a student has less time to take on a regular part-time job.


My daughter had a similar situation but was geared to academics.  It was a lot more profitable scholarship-wise for her to study for the standardized tests and keep her grades up.  A part-time job would have never generated as much money as the scholarships.


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## Sugarcubesea (Jan 1, 2022)

joestein said:


> Is she at a 'big 4'?   Most of them have a mandatory partner retirement age of 60-62.  Gotta make room for the lower ranks to rise up.
> 
> Though there have been lawsuits - so I believe that it might be more of an 'unspoken' rule these days.



She is at Deloitte, and she is over 60, I will ask her when she is back in town again if there is a mandatory retirement, I highly doubt there would be but they could push her out but she is the face and generator of one of the lucrative arms of revenue so my bet is they will let her stay a few years to enjoy being at the top and she will retire when she wants to.


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## PigsDad (Jan 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 @dayooper Our DD was a competitive high school athlete and received a scholarship to a D1 school. This took a lot of time and travel so no time for a high school or college job except for her tutoring gigs. Her sport was her job (and paid a good portion of college). Loved those years supporting her as an athlete.


Same here -- we never pushed our daughter to work during HS because she was heavily involved with high-level fastpitch softball year round.  For her, it paid off handsomely:  she ended up accepting a full ride scholarship (tuition, fees, _*and *_room/board) to a $50K+ a year private school.  Because of Covid and sports being shutdown last year, she had decided to go a fifth year and a good portion of her scholarship was extended as well.

Bottom line, after five years she will have received around $230K in total scholarship money.  Pretty confident that is way more than any summer jobs could have provided. 

Kurt


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## Krteczech (Jan 1, 2022)

We never pushed our daughter to work outside her environment during her studies. She had several jobs at the U assisting professors and got her four year degree at three years. Her Masters two year program fully covered with scholarship. No loans to pay, no experience in bartending either.


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## needvaca (Jan 1, 2022)

My high school kid has a part-time job at a restaurant but it is a joke. She’s scheduled for 2-3 days per week plus maybe 1-2 days on call. Some days she’ll go to work and she gets cut after 2 hours. She makes about $80-100/week, so probably $4000 per year 

On the flip side, I showed her how universities give merit aid that is higher the higher your GPA is. So, if you work hard and get your GPA up from a 3.8 to a 4.0, it could mean an extra $8000-$10,000 in aid, for each of the 4 years!  

So studying hard is a much better use of time than a piddling part-time job. I tell her that school IS her job. Honestly the only reason I make her work is to show her how much low income jobs suck so that she works harder in school. She got the point.


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## Superchief (Jan 1, 2022)

My best motivation for buckling down in school was working a summer job doing foundation construction work. Although I made good money, I realized how hard my coworkers had to work with no end in sight. I learned to greatly respect these construction workers and I better get my degree if I didn't want to have to do that my whole life. After working almost 50 years in the corporate world, I think I would now prefer to work in trade and have my own business (but not concrete work).


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 2, 2022)

Meet the typical baby boomer: Worth $206,000, they've been blamed for ruining the economy
 for millennials and are in the midst of the 'gray tsunami'










						Meet the typical baby boomer: Worth $206,000, they've been blamed for ruining the economy for millennials and are in the midst of the 'gray tsunami'
					

Baby boomers have reaped the benefits of low interest rates and housing inflation. They're wealthy, but some still don't have enough money to retire.




					www.businessinsider.com
				





Richard


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## joestein (Jan 2, 2022)

Superchief said:


> My best motivation for buckling down in school was working a summer job doing foundation construction work. Although I made good money, I realized how hard my coworkers had to work with no end in sight. I learned to greatly respect these construction workers and I better get my degree if I didn't want to have to do that my whole life. After working almost 50 years in the corporate world, I think I would now prefer to work in trade and have my own business (but not concrete work).




Absolutely.... I had a ton of manual labor type jobs as a teenage during school breaks through a temp agency in NYC.   Mostly made between $3.35 - $4/hr.    One job was a week at a file storage facility - no AC and hot.   Sweated and stunk all week.   Then another year I spend an entire summer at a corporate kitchen in midtown.  All the ladies took turns taking their annual vacation and I filled in for all of them in turn.   I swept/mopped floors, cleaned tables, cleaned out fryers and deli slicers.  Helped prep and serve breakfast and lunch.   However, I loved that I was able to eat as much as I want for free - retrospectively - not the best thing for me.

These jobs taught me that I better get my act together and do well in college if I wanted to avoid doing these sorts of things later in life.

Joe


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## geist1223 (Jan 2, 2022)

In High School and College I had a variety of Blue Collar Jobs: Yard and Garden work for an elderly couple; lots of Farm work to include replacing a fence around a 50 acre sheep pasture (all post holes dug by hand); driving large farm trucks, combines and swather, moving irrigation pipe, Boss of Irrigation Gang (Grass Seed Farmer offered me a year round job which came with a free house); pulled Green Chain in a Lumber Mill; Chicken slaughter house (I was one of 4 guys that pulled chickens out of the cages on the truck and hang them upside down in shackles), Plywood Mill weekend security and cleanup; and, General Labor in House Construction.

These all convinced me to finish the NROTC Program and go into the Marine Corps as an Officer.


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## pedro47 (Jan 3, 2022)

I'm a baby boomer and I did not caused a labor shortage. My first job under Social Security, I was fourteen  (14) years old and my last part - time employment under Social Security, I was sixty-five (65) years old.

I still worked every day now with the Commander in Chief honey to do lists, volunteering for my church and other social organizations with out pay. Again, without pay..

It is called LIFE enjoyment and thanks you God for a good life of family and friends.

You came blame today's labor shortages on the television, drugs, COVID-19, several spoils decades of children; computers, cell phones,  the internet and the social media.

But please do not blame baby boomers. LOL


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