# PA state troopers called - vacation home trashed [merged]



## VivianLynne (Mar 4, 2012)

My 1975 place was party central to teenagers and neighbors called after the fact. Trooper said they tracked down 16yo girl who claimed she was there but did not do anything as her gf so and so will tell you.

The trooper told me that the damage is essentive - busted out windows, trashed furniture, holes in walls, smashed dishes and chairs....and trash everywheres. Girl was tracked down via personal item she left in house. Crime lab is processing evidence. Last breakin 10+ years ago was neighbor kid who left fingerprints behind and was arrested 3 years later when his prints on another arrest fingered him.

Question: Can I take the insurance money and sell the house ASIS? Realtors last spring valued house at 40K as 900 sq ft 2bdr 1bath on wooded acre. House was in good condition but dated and small. Area is now year round family living verses vacation home.


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## fishingguy (Mar 4, 2012)

*read your policy or call your agent*

Insurance on vacation property isn't necessarily standardized in some places, especially for vacation or 2nd homes. State/local requirements, how the property is valued and classified, riders and amendments and other factors can come into play. In addition, if there is no loan on the property, that can also affect things.

We had a vacation property badly damaged by storms; roof, siding, etc.  The check we got from the insurance company would have been ~20% less if we did not repair and upgrade from the damage.  But it was an older property that had a policy written many years earlier.  Periodic adjustments in replacement value occurred (upward), and there were also some amendments issued that came into play. (+ and -'s for our situation).

So you'll want to read your policy into what is covered and how it is covered, and will undoubtedly end up speaking with your agent.  Don't rule out pressing criminal charges and recouping damages to recoup what the insurance might not pay if you don't do repairs.  If the person(s) is(are) a minor then things can get complicated, but can be well worth pursuing.  [You insurance company will likely need to be involved in part of this process if you are able to recover damages.]


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## VivianLynne (Mar 4, 2012)

Is anyone in the Camelback Ski area? I am 1500 miles away.  Trooper was not giving up much detail. ... said he locked the door but a couple of windows were busted out, etc.

PM with phone number. As this is on the web and a police matter, I don't want to give out too much public info.


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## Sea Six (Mar 4, 2012)

If you've got busted out windows, you'd better get the house repaired ASAP or Mother Nature will destroy whatever is left of it.  You sound like you're not even going there to see the damage.  What's the empty lot worth after the house is torn down?


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## Rose Pink (Mar 4, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> Question: Can I take the insurance money and sell the house ASIS? Realtors last spring valued house at 40K as 900 sq ft 2bdr 1bath on wooded acre. House was in good condition but dated and small. Area is now year round family living verses vacation home.



Call a realtor who specializes in the area of the property.  Some mortgage lenders will require a house to be habitable before writing a loan.  It would depend on the value of the land, etc.  A realtor who knows the area could better inform you of what to expect.  If the land is valuable, you might be able to find a buyer who is willing to demolish and build, for example.

You also have issues of safety and liability.  Google "attractive nuisance."

Is there a property management company you could hire?  Again, check with a realtor for suggestions and references.


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2012)

If your insurance company pays your claim and if they dont require the repairs to be made, then sure you can sell it as is. I wouldnt worry about fixing it up enough so that your buyer can get a loan. You need to find a cash buyer, or hold paper yourself.. From what you say I think Sea Six is right...what you are selling is a vacant lot. Even if the property was fixed up, if the neighborhood has transitioned to a year round community, your place is functionally obsolete..In my market I would market it  as a beautiful wooded lot...free house!


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## VivianLynne (Mar 24, 2012)

*Been almost 3 weeks now ---*

Been up there to see the damage twice and take photographs. It is beyond just a trashed house. I think there might be a wooden DR chair NOT broken or with blue paint splashed on it. Met with a vendor who does "all inclusive" house repair thing. This is a 24x36 ft house, single floor over a crawl space. There are 4 windows - all damaged. (2 visible patio doors and fixed windows - NOT damaged.) All the interior doors are damaged, all the floor surfaces, all the furniture (2 Bassett matching solid wood sets, DR with 6 chairs and china cabinet, LR's 3 piece sectional with sofabed and recliner, 5' full wall Sauder entertainment, 3 TVs, the entire KIT of cabinets, stove, refrigerator, 14 interior bifold or regular wood doors, 50% of the staingrade wood trim, F/P mantel, stormdoor, 30-35% of the wall's sheetrock, 1 piece fiberglass tub, double bowl vanity, 3-4 light fixtures, etc. The insurance person thinks the beds are okay - except there has NOT been enough light or space to examine them. And the well is NOT working. I have been staying a Wyndham Shawnee on 2/3 night midweek stays. Going up Sunday for 4 nights - got to get a well guy in to figure out what the kids did to that and to pack what is NOT destroyed.

One of my friends who has worked with his stepfather for years on fire restoration, was there for a visit and his bet is $40-45K (this might be a tad low by $10K) for the house on repairs plus the cost of all new furniture. 

I have replacement on my insurance except on the initial payout, it is depreciated value paid until I present receipts for the "replaced" items of the same grade.

*So, my questions are -* 
Should I hire someone (and whom) to help handle this claim? What would I be paying for this "service"? 

Does PA insurance have mediators or is it a SUE the insurance company type state?

I have asked politely 3 times now for numbers on the house repairs from the insurance adjustor. First, she was working on it; then she wanted a write up from the "all-inclusive" outfit; now this week, it is swamped at work & will try to get it done over the weekend.  Come on, it is all computer generated by measurement; she had to gotten it done by the Mar 8 visit. Is it letter writing time?


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## VivianLynne (Mar 24, 2012)

The vandals left their full 1/2 gallon jug of volka.


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## VivianLynne (Mar 24, 2012)

ronparise said:


> If your insurance company pays your claim and if they dont require the repairs to be made, then sure you can sell it as is. I wouldnt worry about fixing it up enough so that your buyer can get a loan. You need to find a cash buyer, or hold paper yourself.. From what you say I think Sea Six is right...what you are selling is a vacant lot. Even if the property was fixed up, if the neighborhood has transitioned to a year round community, your place is functionally obsolete..In my market I would market it  as a beautiful wooded lot...free house!



Insurance adjustor said they will pay for the boardup of the broken windows and the "cleanout" to the dumpster of the trash & cutouts for the sheetrock. So the removal payment for the service would cover all flooring removal, trashed doors, trashed furniture, yard debris, dumpster, etc.

Then they would pay for the depreciated furniture and personal possessions.

Need to ask about "draws" or payment of the repairs to the house.


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## jlr10 (Mar 24, 2012)

Repairing the house could be a pain, but, as mention, if not repaired you would only get actual cash value, which is going to include depreciation.  Then you would have to find a willing buyer who is going to say they are only buying the lot, the house is a teardown project. (even if it isn't.)   If you repair and replace everything the house might be worth more than it was before the damage if you try to sell it.  It is no longer a small older vacation home in a family area, it is now a newly renovated starter home on a wooded lot, with a bonus half gallon of Vodka.  

As for hiring a public adjuster, that is a personal call.  Some people will tell you it is the only way to get a fair settlement. Others will say they are no better than ambulance chases and you will also have your payout reduced by their fee (as the insurance company is not going to pay the public adjuster's fees.) If you feel the insurance company is dealing fairly with you then probably not. If you feel otherwise, then you have to decide if what you will receive from the carrier minus the pubic adjuster's fee, is going to be more than what you would get without them.


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## pjrose (Mar 24, 2012)

Have the people who trashed the place been identified?  Have the police done anything to investigate?  At least I'd expect them to get a few fingerprints and see if they're in the database.


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## VivianLynne (Mar 24, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Have the people who trashed the place been identified?  Have the police done anything to investigate?  At least I'd expect them to get a few fingerprints and see if they're in the database.



This is an on going investigation. There is a license plate with 2 females provided to State Police and a witness to their leaving my house. There has been 1 confession, 1 who lawyered up, 1 being sought. The state police photogragher was there as was the CSI unit. 4-6 months before hits can be expected off the current fingerprint data base; could be years later for additional "hits" as new records are added.

Under 18 years old "children", per insurance adjuster, will have parents forced to pay damages (think liens, wage attachments, savings, retirement funds, bad credit scores, college savings). 18+ will be required to make restitition to me and insurance company as part of the criminal proceedings which will not "go away" via bankruptcy. I too can go after the parents and young adults for my added expenses - travel to/from vacation house, added housing costs, meals away from home, lost wages, etc. If these were children (under 12 yo I recall), the parents Home Owners insurance might cover it, as a child under 12 years lacks the ability to form intent.

The real fun will begin when the parents of the minors realize this was major willful damage/destruction. And they are responsible for their little brats. After all, many parents might consider a HS party as involving a broken window, some beer on a rug, beer cans laying around and a broken lamp. With all the insurance payouts, it may run up to a $100,000 between house, well, furniture and contents like dishes, TVs, plates, drapes, stereo ....


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## pjrose (Mar 24, 2012)

Ugh, what a PITA.  

At least the authorities are working on it and some of the identities are known.


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## Timeshare Von (Mar 24, 2012)

WOW Vivian I'm sorry you're having to go through such a nightmare experience.  I really do hope that full monetary restitution comes your way.


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## VivianLynne (Mar 24, 2012)

I am pretty good at designing stuff. But it took years on a budget to get the place where the furniture matched and it felt like a home verses a flea market special. 

Now, I will have to decide all the important questions again. Color of walls, flooring, furniture theme, kitchen layout, etc. To sofabed or not? Sectional or not? Raised countertop with high stools or not? White or black appliances? Plastic or corelle - remember, I had over 100 pieces of corelle which are now glass shardes. Wood or rugs? 

The only thing not really destroyed was the crack stone fireplace with granite hearth - which was always the prettiest thing in the living room.

Got my plastic tubs together and packed into the car. My 4 ft ladder also is in the car. Have to pack whatever is still there - ready to move. I have several days to make up the inventory sheets of missing or broken details; There is still one clock radio there with the time running - hope it tunes into a station for background noise.

Wyndham Shawnee, here I come again - 4 nights this time. It is a good thing that I have some unused Wyndham points still this year. I think I have the Dupee unit with a jetted bathtub and a washer/dryer (as I will wash everything I was wearing after I leave the house).


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## Tia (Mar 25, 2012)

I hope the authorities can get the 2 participants to talk and name names, spread out the repair costs among the guilty


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## Passepartout (Mar 25, 2012)

Vivian, we are deeply saddened by the violation you must feel by this senseless act. While we can do nothing to help you physically, please accept a great big TUG {{{HUG}}} and a few tears of support.

Cleaning up the mess, saving what can be saved, disposing what will only re-open old wounds after the physical damage is fixed, will all have a toll on you. I hope you have someone you can turn to for support. There are just life's situations that are too big to face alone. If help is offered, take it. Have a paintbrush or a pair of gloves handy to put into the hands of anyone who asks "What can I do?"

Ultimately we hope that police and insurance investigations into responsibility will result in people who can and will step up financially. There will be bills and expenses. What a relief to have somewhere to send them to to be paid and resolved. It's so east to find responsibility, but then it comes down to actually collecting the judgement. Not so easy.

Keep your TUG family in the loop. We care.

Jim


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## cerralee (Mar 25, 2012)

You can hire a mediator in PA to negotiate with the insurance companies.  I just noticed this thread...otherwise I would have chimed in earlier.  I am about 45 minutes to an hour from camelback in the Scranton area.
My friend had a water heater burst while they were away on vacation and the mediator negotiated approximately twice the original amount for final payment.

The vacation home communities in the Poconos have really changed in the past 25 or so years.  I worked at one for about eight summers in a row and the people who had houses there were wonderful.  Now with all the defaults in mortgages etc., foreclosures abound and the second home communities have really taken hits.  Sorry to hear about all the vandalism.  I can't imagine having to deal with it from far away.  Good luck with your insurance and then hope you can find a reliable contractor to do the work for you.

Lee


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## VivianLynne (Mar 26, 2012)

cerralee said:


> You can hire a mediator in PA to negotiate with the insurance companies.  I just noticed this thread...otherwise I would have chimed in earlier.  I am about 45 minutes to an hour from camelback in the Scranton area.
> My friend had a water heater burst while they were away on vacation and the mediator negotiated approximately twice the original amount for final payment.
> .. Sorry to hear about all the vandalism.  I can't imagine having to deal with it from far away.  Good luck with your insurance and then hope you can find a reliable contractor to do the work for you.
> 
> Lee



Thank you. I really would love more info on the mediator. There is just so much damage and the insurance adjuster is just pushing to to use a chain disaster firm who signs a contract with me.. I pay for WHAT the insurance company decides not to pay the big rehab firm. Those idiots had 4 guys show up to look at a 864 sq fr house with 1 clipboard. Then they used the guys can start work tomorrow else with the wind storms tomorrow they might get another job which would delay my repairs.
I did manage to keep a straight face with all that bull crap being thrown at me.

I am up here for 2 more days. Leaving very early Thurs... staying at Wyndham Shawnee ts.


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## VivianLynne (Mar 28, 2012)

Yesterday was a long day. The well/plumber people came out and pulled the well pump. It was burned out. New pump installed; water restored; big leak under kitchen sink from where the 1/2 copper pipe had blown away from the copper valve- freeze damage. Remember, my windows had been broken out. Pump ran nonstop until it died. The cabinet bottom is water damaged, etc.

I now have water.


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## VivianLynne (Apr 7, 2012)

This was the 30 yard dumpster visit of 3.5 days. The house is empty of furniture, rugs, kitchen cabinets, and bathroom fixtures. The 30 yard dumpster is pretty full. Yes, I did have help from a friend who is paying for his daughter's wedding. The insurance company has proposed a cleanout figure and a repair figure - but getting the trash gone was needed.

I now have a blank slate - to plan and rebuild. I only get 180 days from the reporting date of damage.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 8, 2012)

Doing that within 180 days while staying at a timeshare should prove to be interesting - 5 weeks gone of a 26 week time limit via the insurance company.

Happy planning!


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## VivianLynne (May 12, 2012)

An update:
I have just been trying to sort my new design plan out...

Smaller kitchen with 42" tall cabinets. Tile floors in Bathroom and Kitchen with in floor electric heat. Deep soaking tub (no jets). Tile back splash above kitchen granite countertop. Adding a pocket door coming off living room (with cathedral ceiliing) into hallway to bath & bedrooms. Adding a 2nd window to larger of 2 bdrs (I think). Real wood floor for LR and DR - with maybe in floor electric heat (it has always been a COLD room). LCD TV over fireplace (gets rid of TV hutch) with an accordian style arm to position it. No sofa bed, but recliner end(s) to sofa. King size bed - who cares if it takes up the whole room. 

Monday starts another 4 nights at Wyndham Shawnee with my handiman/carpenter & I, as Gal Friday, making new friends at Lowes and Home Depot. Every 3 weeks - as his wife's work schedule dictates this - and he has a Sept 2012 wedding for his daughter. So, I GOT to have this all done by then - he won't need the extra money after the wedding.:ignore: 

Tuesday AM will have a visit by the State Police - collected pictures of the Hidden Signatures (under an inch of sheetrock mud) - sort of like Hidden Mickey's at DVC. Should try to see if insurance adjuster will be around.

Goal: Install a new toilet flange. Fix the center support house pillar in crawl space.  Get the tile bathroom and tile kitchen floors installed with in floor heating. Frame out pocket door; fix laundry closet plumbing. Finish plumbing for new tub.


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## Htoo0 (May 12, 2012)

Hope all goes well.


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## Passepartout (May 12, 2012)

Sounds like a great vacation home, but a big investment of time and effort. You go girl!

Jim


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## Karen G (May 12, 2012)

The new plans sound wonderful. Do you have any added security features to keep vandals away in the future?


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## pacodemountainside (May 12, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind is insurance companies almost always insist on a subrogation   release which means you give them all rights to sue who ever.

If you have losses not covered by insurance you can sue, but will probably cost  a couple thousand + up front which you probably cannot recover. Based on  chasing dead beat tenants collecting from irresponsible people  is a losing battle.

You also want to keep receipts, estimates, documentation, etc.  so you can  go for tax loss!   Won't be  a big amount, but  it all helps!


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## VivianLynne (May 12, 2012)

Karen G said:


> The new plans sound wonderful. Do you have any added security features to keep vandals away in the future?



In my home area, Comcast is beginning to advertise their NEW security monitoring program. $500 for the free equipment - think I will investigate that. (I don't remember who is the cable company - it used to be Blue Ridge years ago). Or if FIOS is in that area.

Of course, ADT has the SAT-Phone security systems.


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## Zac495 (May 13, 2012)

So sorry for this senseless act. I'm in PA - been to that area when I used to ski. 
Any update on the kids/parents and criminal proceedings/restitution?
Ellen


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## VivianLynne (May 19, 2012)

Another work week in the Poconos. The new porcelain tile floor was put down in the bath (very good pattern following), kitchen (not as good as bath and only one meltdown by mechanic), laundry closet (I followed the KISS principle with a stacked pattern), and foyer (where he followed the 'he had enough' meltdown). 

Word of advice: do not try to find black ABS plastic pipe in that area. After 15+ plumbing and supply stores telling me in PA and NJ, it was "not code" -  I found enough fittings at Lowe's near Mt Pocono. One supply house in Blairstown, NJ told me "I have watched it (black ABS) out on the racks in the parking lot just about bend into a loop." I told him, "Isn't plumbling pipe usually buried in dirt or in basements - far away from the sun?". Then, he said the sun makes it brittle. Duh? Thru the dirt or the interior walls?

Decided to give up on wood interior windows. Most larger windows are now egress'ed sized which are too big for older openings and I would have to cut sliding and reframe headers and jacks *or* too small designed for placement under furniture. Will order local vinyl replacements for next trip.

On May 17, Home Depot started a 20% off sale of my selected kitchen cabinets.  Will order those - 2 week delivery early this week.

Finished the two coats of paint on LR/DR ceilings. Finished one coat on walls in LR and 1 bdr. All the walls are now patched and getting the last coat of mud before we left on Friday.

Next trip is June 4th - windows to be installed. Install new bathtub and tile tub surround  -  different pattern, but same tile family. Install new kitchen cabinets. Pickup interior doors and trim for staining and varnishing. Start looking for hardwood floor in LR and kitchen countertop material. Paint 2nd bedroom. Contractor wants a working bathroom. 

Wonder what his plan is when he discovers "NO AIR CONDITIONING"?


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## Karen G (May 19, 2012)

Wow, you are making progress. It would be nice to see some before and after pictures when it's all done.


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## VivianLynne (May 19, 2012)

Karen G said:


> Wow, you are making progress. It would be nice to see some before and after pictures when it's all done.



10+ hour days at the house - bringing/eating lunch at the house. 30 minutes travel each way from Shawnee. He leaves Shawnee around 6:20AM - getting a takeout breakfast on route.  I go to Home Depot /Lowes on the way, but leaving an hour later and calling him for any other material items he found he needed. By the time I get to the house, he has decided what he needs my help on and what exacting he is doing for the day.  

We both have pickup trucks and he has done work for me for almost 10 years. His wife works rotating shift work; hence, the every 3 week trip coincides with her day shift. His daughter is getting married in Sept and this is helping with his expenses (the overtime/not home pay).


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## VivianLynne (May 24, 2012)

Drove up and back to the Poconos yesterday. The purpose was to ORDER the new kitchen cabinets at Home Depot as they have a 20% on the "in-stock" or rapid express ordered cabinets til 5/30. Total for JUST cabinets were $1949 minus a few pennies. Counter top and installation not included.

Got to also meet the current PA State Trooper - from the Criminal Investigation squad. He toured the house, took photos of newly unearthed "wall" art (2 hearts in red with a girl's name inside), and ask for my insurance adjustor's name and contact info. He said the investigation is moving along, but did tell me that this level of crimeral activity is a Felony on a couple of counts.

Cabinets arrive in 2 weeks.


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## VivianLynne (May 24, 2012)

*Opinions asked for on the Punishment for the Teenage Vandals*

I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.

I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment. 

Yes, I am familiar with Pre-trial Invention to avoid a Felon record. I am also familiar with spoiled, bored teenagers who believe they are "special".  As it seems that there are lawyers involved for all, these spin doctors are keeping the suspects from talking .... but there an eye witness with license tag, physical ATM card resceipts found in my house, and admitances of "Yes, I was there but no damage was done by ME".  

Damage will be close to $45,000 for the house and $35,000 for the soft-goods inside, plus or minus 15% for an 864 sq ft furnished house.

My question is: What are your "unemotionally involved" opinions on punishments?


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## presley (May 24, 2012)

If they are normally good kids, I'd have them work off the $45K or let their parents pay it.  Otherwise, jail time + community service would be fair.


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## VivianLynne (May 24, 2012)

presley said:


> If they are normally good kids, I'd have them* work off the $45K *or let their parents pay it.  Otherwise, jail time + community service would be fair.



It is $45K plus $35K plus costs for housing & transportation while I am in the area (I didn't have the "can't live in the house' rider).


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## geekette (May 24, 2012)

This is criminal behavior.  This was not some accident, oops, hit a baseball through your window stuff, this is willful destruction on a large scale.  A slap on the wrist will not suffice.

I don't care what age they are nor how "good" they may have been perceived to be, I say financial restitution and jail time.  Too bad they didn't  help clean up, I'd have let them off with community service + $.

I don't care if they have scholarships, either.  Perhaps they should have considered their bright futures before blowing it away on your house.  can't see how they would be the kind of person any university would be proud of.

Actions have consequences.  Bad actions almost always have undesired consequences.  So be it.  

They will probably learn about guilt by association as well.


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## ricoba (May 24, 2012)

I thought you had said in the initial post that the cop said this was felony behavior.  If so, then it is criminal behavior that needs to be dealt with by the courts.  As geekette says, actions have consequences.  These young people have to pay the price for their actions.


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## TUGBrian (May 24, 2012)

agreed...im all about forgiveness for dumb mistakes....this however was deliberate.


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## Zac495 (May 24, 2012)

If you forgive them, they will move on to the next person. It was deliberate. It will be interesting at the punishment hearing... it's possible a couple of them were less involved - who knows. Let us know.


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## SOS8260456 (May 24, 2012)

I really hope that this did not happen in Luzerne County.  A few years ago kids were being put in detention halls for just throwing a rock.  Luzerne County is where the Kids for Cash scandal took place and now leniency is the name of the game.

I also hope they all get charged as adults and I don't think just paying money will sink in with these kids.  Mom and Dad will probably just pay it.  I also hope that the scholarships have to be forfieted because stuff like that should only go to students who contribute to society not try to destroy it.

This was willful destruction that they are not even willing to own up to.  Apologies should have been made, remorse shown in the form of helping with the clean up should have occured.  I don't like to see kids go to jail, or pay taxes to house and feed them.  I think house arrest for a minimum of one year with the parents paying for the monitoring equipment and maintenance.  

Sadly, I just spoke with my husband who deals with pre sentencing and it sounds like they will probably just get a slap on the wrist especially in this whole general area where the judges are super concerned with the childrens rights since they have just cleared out the judges who were just putting kids away and taking kickbacks for it.

So sorry you have to go through all this.


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## Egret1986 (May 24, 2012)

*You have every right to be very, very angry.*



VivianLynne said:


> I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.



This was a deliberate criminal act.  Obviously, the courts will determine their fate.  As someone said, if they just get a little slap on the wrist, they could very well shrug off this incident and move on to another victim.  

Full restitution absolutely, but the dollar amount will never compensate you for what these people have put you through.  They need a punishment that will let them know this is totally unacceptable behavior and give them pause to think next time.  It's all about making choices.  They made this one.  If they don't get to go to college and lose their scholarships that is on them, not you.


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## pranas (May 24, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.
> 
> I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.
> 
> ...



I would push fro the harhest punishment possible. Make them pay for the damages.


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## stmartinfan (May 24, 2012)

Just thought I'd add a counter viewpoint here, since most others seem to be taking the hard line approach.  I don't know the kids involved and whether this is just one action or a pattern of deliberate misbehavior.  But as the parent of young adults, I've been reading with interest some of the research about how the wiring in people's brains changes as they mature - often not until into the 20s.  Until that happens there are structural issues that get in the way of the local, rational, responsible behavior we want to expect of them. So they are impulsive, act irresponsibly, get led by others into stupid actions, etc.  Of course, not all teens, but many.

We have a clear example of this in our family.  A young relative at 18 committed a similar act of vandalism against a family member's home in a fit of anger, and while hanging with some also irresponsible peers.  I'm not going to share the long story, but there were some issues of drug and alcohol use, a breakdown in the family connection, learning disabilities, etc.  The result was he ended up serving jail time.  He's now in his 30s, has matured into a responsible young man, who leads a decent life and has been forgiven by the family. However, he doesn't have any further education, since he was jailed during his early 20s,.  He's willing to work hard, but lost a several year job because he couldn't get bonded due to his criminal record, and now has found it very difficult to get another one. It was hard to hear about what he'd done, but it's also hard to know that he is now stuck because of a irresponsible act when he was 18.  Would he have turned his life around with the jail time?  I don't know, but I suspect that he would have figured it out. And now there's another unemployed person, not able to contribute financial to his family, pay taxes, and not be a drain on our system.


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## pjrose (May 24, 2012)

This is up to the DA and courts, not you.  However, to protect your interests, you should get an attorney, b/c the DA may not do as much on your behalf.  

From your perspective, you must get full restitution including your legal and travel costs.  This is not negotiable.  This may or may not be payable by the parents' liability or umbrella insurance, if they have it, but that's their problem, not yours.  Can be payable over a reasonable time - e.g. two years maybe.  It's the parents' decision how they handle their kids' debt; if it was my kid, I'd pay it and make my kid pay me back 50% of earnings from a part time job until it's paid off.  

As far as the kids' punishment, it depends on whether they have any kind of record.  If they don't, then their attorneys and the DA will likely work out ARD, which will involve some combination of restitution, fines, court costs, community service, classes if appropriate (e.g. anger management or substance abuse), and probation (likely a year).  The community service must not be fun (e.g. not helping walk dogs at the shelter).  Clean up graffiti, build houses for the needy, pick up road litter, etc.  When all those are complete, if the kids have kept out of trouble for that length of time, the record would be expunged.  It would likely be harsher for those over than under 18.  

If they DO have a record, then the DA and your lawyer should go for something harsher - perhaps not jail time, but likely not expungement.  Why do I say not jail time?  Because being in jail will likely make them worse than they are, given what and who they'll be exposed to.

Let me add that I have been there, as victim, as parent of victim, and and parent of kid-who-screwed-up, and am now somewhat familiar with the process in PA.  None of my experiences were nearly as severe financially as yours.....but I have learned a bit more than I wanted to about the system.  Feel free to email me (don't PM, my PM box is full.)

PJ


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## Passepartout (May 24, 2012)

Hard to say, not knowing what the options are in Pennsylvania. Here, we have what's called 'Withheld Judgement' for underage felons. Restitution for the damage caused is required, then the court maintains jurisdiction over the young people for several years- say until they are 25 or a set number of years, 10 for instance. As long as the young person stays clear of the law for that duration, the criminal activity they participated in as a juvenile is sealed. If they fall into a life of criminal activity during the time the court has jurisdiction over them, a maximum penalty is automatically instituted. 

It supposes that many youths have participated in illegal activities that involved property damage (no personal injury or death), and that if encouraged they can be valuable members of society without being a drag on society or the taxpayers.

Hope the prosecutors can come up with a fair solution for all, and that Vivian can get restitution.

Jim


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## Sea Six (May 24, 2012)

pranas said:


> I would push fro the harhest punishment possible. Make them pay for the damages.



Covering the cost of the damage is not enough.  A punitive amount should also be imposed.  Treble comes to mind.


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## gpurtz (May 24, 2012)

I think I'd have to link the penalty to the degree of involvement.  Those who actively participated in the destruction of your property should be dealt with as harshly as possible.  Those who did not destroy any of your property but did nothing to stop those who did might be dealt with less harshly.  I might consider leniency for those who were there but left rather than participate in the destruction.  Given the level of destruction, these perps (sorry, I'm not going to call these hooligans kids), are felons and should be treated as such.  Should a parent ask for a break for his/her hooligan, tell them you'll consider the request if they allow you to do their property what their hooligan did to yours.  I believe teenagers and young adults can make mistakes because they simply fail to appreciate the consequences of their judgment and actions.  That is not what happened to you.  These hooligans understood and just didn't give a damn.


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## Mel (May 24, 2012)

They should each be required to name names - if they didn't do it, they must know who did.  And even if they did not destroy your property, they had to know they were trespassing.  

The amount of damage does appear to be in the range for felony charges, and in many places, those cannot be expunged from the record - that's reserved for lesser crimes.

Judgement should be made against ALL of them personally for restitution - not 1/4 or an equal share to each, but all shared among them.  If one doesn't pay her share, it would have to be paid by the others, not lost to you (or your insurance company).

If they want to deal, I would push for something that goes on their permanent record, even if it is a lesser punishment, as opposed to a harsher punishment, but the possiblity of sealing the records - something for which the colleges will have to be made aware.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 25, 2012)

stmartinfan said:


> Just thought I'd add a counter viewpoint here, since most others seem to be taking the hard line approach.  I don't know the kids involved and whether this is just one action or a pattern of deliberate misbehavior.  But as the parent of young adults, I've been reading with interest some of the research about how the wiring in people's brains changes as they mature - often not until into the 20s.  Until that happens there are structural issues that get in the way of the local, rational, responsible behavior we want to expect of them. So they are impulsive, act irresponsibly, get led by others into stupid actions, etc.  Of course, not all teens, but many.
> 
> We have a clear example of this in our family.  A young relative at 18 committed a similar act of vandalism against a family member's home in a fit of anger, and while hanging with some also irresponsible peers.  [snipped for brevity]


I understand this totally.  This almost describes to a T several members in my family.

That being said, I would say that your first paragraph simply rationalizes the behavior.  And I am 100% certain my nieces and nephews would agree.

Yeah - they've had tougher lives because of what they did.  But they are the first to say that if they hadn't been forced to face up to the consequences of what they did they wouldn't have wound up where they are today.

******

In a parallel example, some people's brains are wired so that they cannot handle alcohol. As a result they do stupid things that hurt other people.

I don't believe that we should hold those people any less accountable for what they do as a result of their idiosyncratic neural wiring.  In the same vein I don't believe that we should hold young adults any less accountable because they may have some quirky neural wiring.

*******

It's just simply not an excuse.  When you are an adult you are responsible for the consequences of your actions.  End of story. 

The only exceptions I can see are those where that might involve greatly diminished mental capacity or some other extraordinary circumstance.


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## am1 (May 25, 2012)

Jail, maximum time allowed.  No sealing of records.  But I do not believe that should ever be the case.  

Id also require all inmates to pay their way through jail so they are not a burden on society.  To me not putting people in jail because it costs money is a backwards way of thinking.  

If they only get a slap on the wrist then others will follow.


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## dwojo (May 25, 2012)

If you feel forgiveness is the best route explore the options. Talk to a prosecutor or the police and see what they think. Reducing the charges to a misdemeanor with a long probation along with restitution and making them do a lot of community service(several hundred hours a piece) in a homeless shelter might work. Making things to easy for these kids will enable them and cause someone heartache at a later date.


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## ronparise (May 25, 2012)

at first I couldnt figure out why you are so angry. But after reading the posts I guess the assumption is that its your house and your property.. In that case Id be angry too

My first question is: Why?...why did it happen? and why did they pick on you? Was it a random thing or were you the was the target. Nit that it makes any difference when it comes to punishment...but I am curious


I find it hard to imagine that its going to take $45000 to repair a 850 sq ft house. It might be cheaper to just tear it down and rebuild for that kind of money.. which brings me to my second question...what does your insurance company say. Do they come to the same numbers that you do? Again...not really important when it comes to punishment but it seems to me its the insurance company that will be spending the money to repair the damage and your stuff, and restitution is their concern, not yours....after all thats why you have been paying premiums all these years...so someone elas can take that risk

To me there are two issues, restitution and punishment.both ought to be decided by the courts, not you or us on TUG. and if you were insured, you dont have to worry about fighting these kids, their parents or the courts...your insurance company ought to take care of that....


This to me was a crime against property and community.. If I was the judge Id be looking at restitution, and community service.....at $10 an hour, and 4 kids It will take something like a year to raise the money. College may have to be postponed.


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## csxjohn (May 25, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> I truly do NOT know who these suspects are - I have no names or addresses (but one lives around the cornor from my house). There are currently 4 persons who are "persons of interest" - 2 who are 18, several who are girls. One or more who have sports scholarships for college and are going away from home for college this Fall.
> 
> I am so angry about the issue that I don't want it to color what a prudent person would feel is a "fair and reasonable" punishment.
> 
> ...



Is there any hint of a cover-up as far as you can tell?

If the perpetrators are well connected in the community you may have problems even if you bring a civil action against them for damages.  

This needs to be made public in the community.


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## vacationhopeful (May 25, 2012)

I would be so royally out to mess with these punks. For the cop to tell you that one of the kids has a sports scholarship for college in the Fall, I would have ask "for Fall 2013 or Fall 2014?".

What RIGHT do they have to continue with their little world while YOU have to re-build your house, deal with the insurance paperwork, months of YOUR LIFE with stress, their court procedings, and the EXPENSE of things NOT covered. How long will or IF you will have recover most of your expenses? 

And you will never get the months of your life back. 

Why should their world be continuing, according to their plan of college in the Fall? Or their parents' plan, of scholarships to pay for college and laurels & praises at graduation?


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## VivianLynne (May 25, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> Is there any hint of a cover-up as far as you can tell?
> 
> If the perpetrators are well connected in the community you may have problems even if you bring a civil action against them for damages.
> 
> This needs to be made public in the community.



One of the females appears to be a soccer star with a college scholarship happening in the Fall. As the HS team won several games in the post Spring season state level of play, she/they would be little Princess at the school.

Can you see the graduation ceremony with cheers as she gets her diploma?


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## Conan (May 25, 2012)

There should be criminal charges against them - - if anybody asks if you want to prosecute that's not really the right question.  The State prosecutes, all you need to do is cooperate.

At a later stage, the prosecutor may offer them a chance to accept accelerated rehabilitation (or whatever it might be called in your state) where they'll be allowed to accept probation and if they stay out of trouble for a year or two their record will disappear.  There you may be asked if you have any objection to their getting this benefit.  Your answer then is you won't object if they/their parents accept responsibility and agree to pay you $___ for the damage they did.


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## VivianLynne (May 25, 2012)

ronparise said:


> at first I couldnt figure out why you are so angry. But after reading the posts I guess the assumption is that its your house and your property.. In that case Id be angry too It is the level of total damage - everything and vicious - furniture reduced to rubble, paint poured into electronics (paint that they brought), every door, almost every dish smashed off the fireplace, and every picture broken, thrown outside or vanished.
> 
> My first question is: Why?...why did it happen? and why did they pick on you? Was it a random thing or were you the was the target. Nit that it makes any difference when it comes to punishment...but I am curious I have owned the house longer than almost everyone else in the community and I do not live there. I go up for a day here or there - but it is MY house and it is maintained.
> 
> ...



College is a priviledge IMHO. The trooper implied that the parents would pay the costs. But I don't think they understand that THEIR INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER this for them.

This house was used for several months as a party house. The electric company had changed the format of the bills in the same period where the actually USAGE is buried on the rear of the 2nd page. I have a budget plan for 25+ years and they put the budget bill as the usage and they what you paid. After the state police got involved, the electric usage was high enough to trigger a recalulation of the budget. Even the usage graphic format changed from rotating the last reading as the end of the graph to be in the 1-12 month's position verses the 13 month rolling chart. Also, the changed the colors of the graph. If I uploaded the prior electric bill format and the NEW format, you would be scratching your head - it is triple the number of print, smaller print, totally changed in content and format. I had to LOOK for the budget amount and send off the payment. Plus, the bill was about $950 HIGHER over prior usage. Plus, the electric meter (a read every month meter) is located just 15 feet from their stash of trash as in beer bottles and pizza boxes --- like that was NEVER notice either with the broken window right there?


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## LUVourMarriotts (May 25, 2012)

I would first find out what exactly your insurance company is doing for you, legally.  And how they are requesting retribution.  Based on that answer, I would get your own attorney to make sure you don't get screwed by some legal situation that you may not fully understand.  I would then demand that the accused pay for your legal fees.

As far as punishment, I think all you can really do is ask for a certain punishment, and the court will decide.  I would ask for the maximum punishment enforceable by the law, since the accused may not get that, but hopefully close.  I would also ask that the accused be placed on house arrest until any/all hearings are concluded.

It seems you are mostly interested in punishing the soccer star.  I don't see the purpose behind that, but if its true, ask for the hearings to start in mid August, when she would have to be at school already, practicing with her team.


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## Don (May 25, 2012)

If they are found guilty of a felony the sports scholarships will probably disappear.  You should push for their records not to be expunged.  Even if they are given a sentence, but allowed parole they won't be able to go very far away because of having to meet with their parole officer.  And they will lose many of their civil rights (voting, etc.)  They will also find it hard to get good jobs, even if they get a college degree. 
Also, make sure that paying for your costs and damages is pat of their parole conditions.  If they don't pay, they go to jail for parole violation..


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## ronparise (May 25, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> College is a priviledge IMHO. The trooper implied that the parents would pay the costs. But I don't think they understand that THEIR INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER this for them.
> 
> This house was used for several months as a party house. The electric company had changed the format of the bills in the same period where the actually USAGE is buried on the rear of the 2nd page. I have a budget plan for 25+ years and they put the budget bill as the usage and they what you paid. After the state police got involved, the electric usage was high enough to trigger a recalulation of the budget. Even the usage graphic format changed from rotating the last reading as the end of the graph to be in the 1-12 month's position verses the 13 month rolling chart. Also, the changed the colors of the graph. If I uploaded the prior electric bill format and the NEW format, you would be scratching your head - it is triple the number of print, smaller print, totally changed in content and format. I had to LOOK for the budget amount and send off the payment. Plus, the bill was about $950 HIGHER over prior usage. Plus, the electric meter (a read every month meter) is located just 15 feet from their stash of trash as in beer bottles and pizza boxes --- like that was NEVER notice either with the broken window right there?



So it is your house, thanks for clearing that up for me

And this wasnt a one time thing..The parties have been going on for some time

I dont know what the electric company has to do with this except that it seems you expected the meter reader to be looking out for you  (I disagree). It sounds like you had bill after bill that showed unusual useage...I wouldnt have caught it either. but the evidence that something wasnt quite right was right in front of you

Vacant houses are a temptation to the bad guys and I guess teenage party animals...Consider yourself lucky that your insurance company will cover it at all...Many wouldnt

I understand your anger, but thats the one thing that the police, the courts and the insurance companies and all the punishment possible cant do anything about. It sounds like you will carry that anger to your grave over the loss of some stuff...and that you are doing to yourself


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 25, 2012)

Added thought - 

in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is *totally irrelevant*.  I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".

Justice should be blind.  Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.


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## tlwmkw (May 25, 2012)

Does this refer to the other thread about a vacation house being trashed?  I'm late looking at this and was initially confused about what was going on.

To my mind this cannot be supressed because of the extent of the damages (from a $ amount they can't just slide it under the rug).  Also if they are 18 it should go on a permanent record.  The problem will be proving that they did it if they have lawyers and are keeping quiet.  I don't care if a soccer star has a scholarship- she should still know that what she did was wrong.  To me the soccer scholarship is not an issue- she should be punished along with the rest of them.

Make sure there is someone there who is watching out for your interests.  If you are out of the area and they are all residents then you may get ignored unless you are there showing your face at all times.  

What a horrible situation.  

tlwmkw


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## presley (May 25, 2012)

If they used it as a regular place to hang out and party, their parents had to have known or suspected.  Am I to believe that all of the parents never followed up on where their kids were and what they were doing?  I can't accept that.

I know some are adult age, but for those who aren't, I'd go after any type of law that was broken and if need be, go after the parents for neglect.


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## geekette (May 25, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Added thought -
> 
> in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is *totally irrelevant*.  I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".
> 
> Justice should be blind.  Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.



Agree completely.
---
Another poster thought Viv was looking to specifically punish the soccer star, but that is not the impression I got.  What I believe Viv was telling us that Because one of the girls was "a darling" of the community, she thought this could taint the proceedings, and I agree, It Could.
---
Another poster thought parents should have known, etc., but when I was a teen, I can assure you that it was rare that anyone checked up on whether I was really where I said I was.  Or they kept quiet about my ... deceptions  

Of course, I was never out conducting felonious activity, so my deviation from the stated plan was rather harmless.

My point is that I find it unlikely that parents of seemingly good kids would track them down each time they go out.  Doesn't seem reasonable nor feasible.  If Suzy Q is an A student, why would SuperMom ever suspect she's out doing bad crap?  It's likely that Suzy Q never got anywhere near Mom when she returned home so I can't blame Mom for not knowing Suzy was drunk.   I blame Suzy.  

Besides, parents have nothing to do with this, tho their wallets could be on the line.


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## Pat H (May 25, 2012)

If they are first time offenders, they will most likely get Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition (ARD). If they complete the program and stay clean for 1-2 yrs, the records can be expunged. I really can't see them going to jail. I am usually the first one to be hard on criminals since I spent 23 yrs doing fraud investigations. In this case, however, I have some mixed emotions. At 18 yrs old, how many people did stupid things that could have ruined their lives forever if they hadn't been lucky or been given a break. Do you really want to take away their futures? The police will know if these kids have been in trouble before so take that into consideration. They might be scared enough to set them straight and will never do something like this again.

The insurance company will give you some of your money and then will go after the kids and their family. You will be sent a victim impact statement in which you should list all of your losses not covered by insurance with documents to back them up. Restitution will be orderd. You might get it all at once or monthly payments. 

I lived in the same county where your home is. When my son was a teenager, he put a lot of money into stereo equipment for his car. One night while he was work, three kids in their early teens broke the lock to his trunk and tried to steal the equipment. They were unsuccessful. They got caught because of big mouths. They were arrested. One of the kid's father beat him and I'm sure it wasn't the first time. We knew one of the kids and his whole family. He never got in trouble again. I got small checks for about a year until the damage was covered. Like you, my son and I were very angry. The thing I wanted most was an apology. I finally got one from the family we knew.

The DA will take your sentiments into account when it comes to plea bargaining but frankly, they don't hold a lot of weight especially in case that doesn't involve bodily harm. BTW, is the case being handled by PSP or Pocono Township?


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## VivianLynne (May 25, 2012)

geekette said:


> ...Another poster thought Viv was looking to specifically punish the soccer star, but that is not the impression I got.  What I believe Viv was telling us that Because one of the girls was "a darling" of the community, she thought this could taint the proceedings, ....



Yes, exactly.


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## "Roger" (May 25, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Added thought -
> 
> in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is *totally irrelevant*.  I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".
> 
> Justice should be blind.  Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.


I think the point here might be that punishment might not be the same.  Five (number made up) kids pay damages and the sixth kid pays damages and loses a college scholarship. (I am not advocating anything here one way or another - just pointing out that justice being the same is not always an easy matter.)


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## VivianLynne (May 25, 2012)

Pat H said:


> ..... BTW, is the case being handled by PSP or Pocono Township?



State Police. I now have the Criminal Investigation Unit trooper.


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## siesta (May 25, 2012)

IMO: the kids' parents should be held financially responsible, the "adults" in the group should be held financially responsible, they should be given an alternative to a felony conviction  as a felony can really screw up their prospects (noone was physically hurt, and they shouldnt have their whole lives screwed up from one bad decision involving property damage, which wasnt even that much. Ive seen Kids that have smashed cars more than the OPs house is worth.) however, there should be a condition of supervision that accompanies any felony diversion program so that any sort of trouble inthe future see's the potential felony charge coming back. 

Making these kids convicted felons, stripping them of their rights, and even possibly putting them in jail/prison will not help or rehabilitate them and will not serve society or your community. They should pay in full for their actions, but should have an opportunity for a second chance, to have court ordered counseling (paid by them), mandatory volunteer work/community service, and a trial of supervision to prove they are worth letting the charges go away. This will serve society more then issuing them a DOC # and ruining there prospects for their future and the communities chance to get something productive out of these young and impressionable kids.


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## Passepartout (May 25, 2012)

geekette said:


> If Suzy Q is an A student, why would SuperMom ever suspect she's out doing bad crap?  It's likely that Suzy Q never got anywhere near Mom when she returned home so I can't blame Mom for not knowing Suzy was drunk.   I blame Suzy.
> 
> Besides, parents have nothing to do with this, tho their wallets could be on the line.



Sure, it's the kids' fault for their doings, but until the kids reach legal adulthood (18 y.o.), the parents are responsible for their behavior whether or not they know what the kids are doing every minute of every day.

Though TUGgers seem to be united that restitution is the first consideration, we seem divided on whether or not additional punishment is warranted. I still come down on a suspended sentence depending on the kids staying out of trouble for a period of time. If they successfully get through school and learn from this transgression, seal the conviction. If individual(s) fall into further criminal or anti-social activity, let the penalty for this vandalism be carried out along with any 'new' penalties they might incur, and this vandalism become part of their lifetime record.

It will be interesting to hear what penalty is meted out.

Jim


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## geekette (May 25, 2012)

there is a common theme here, "if the kids haven't been in trouble before, why screw up their futures over one mistake?"

but it wasn't ONE mistake, it was repeating teh same one over and over.  They didn't go to the house one time and trash it, they made it a habit.  If it were One and Done I would be more lenient.  If they admitted the mistake, had contacted the owner, offered cleanup, apologized all over themselves, etc., I would be more lenient.  This is a pattern of wrongdoing, not just one stupid decision.  

To me, this is a significant aggravating factor that their age and clean records cannot mitigate.   Either they didn't know or didn't care that what they were doing was wrong, since they continued to do it.

Getting As in school or being a good athlete has nothing to do with any of it because this was Repeated Criminal Behavior.


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## geekette (May 25, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Sure, it's the kids' fault for their doings, but until the kids reach legal adulthood (18 y.o.), the parents are responsible for their behavior whether or not they know what the kids are doing every minute of every day.



If they are entering college in the fall, I would think they all are over 18 as I was 18 when I started senior year hs.  

17 is old enuf to know better, but appreciate the reminder about whose responsibility the actions of a minor end up being.


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## TUGBrian (May 25, 2012)

im pretty sure short of murdering someone....any first offense will nearly always get pleaded down (for minors or young adults) in this system. 

id think your first and most important goal should be ensuring the house is returned exactly the way it was prior to the event, and that those responsible or their families will be the ones footing the bill for that.


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## Tia (May 25, 2012)

I was a parent that occasionally tracked down my kids when got wind of something. Will say found that there are many parents  that were not interested in finding out anything, instead preferred to trust their kids words/judgement because as one mother said " all kids do things", or some kids had good grades so that is all that mattered.  

Son got a ticket for careless driving at 17. He found out it's on his record still at age 21, tried for a job that involved driving, background check found it. When asked he told potential employer what happened = no job.


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## Kay H (May 25, 2012)

When one of my sons was 15, he and some older boys did some malicious damage at a neighborhood swim club.  They pushed a soda machine into the pool when the pool was ice covered.  The parents were billed for the monetary damages.

My son, being only 15, did not have a job.  My husband hired him to sweep floors and do cleaning at his place of business.  He paid my son and my son had to ride his bike weekly to the pool's president's house and personally pay him his share.  It broke my heart to see my son being so embarrassed and the president of the pool expressed the same sentiments.

All the other parents paid the debt for their sons,  It was over $100 for each boy involved.

I think my son learned a big lesson because he was held responsible for his actions.

I think the other boys learned that their parents would pay their debt.  I think there should always be consequences for behavior, whether good or bad.


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## presley (May 25, 2012)

Kay H said:


> I think my son learned a big lesson because he was held responsible for his actions.
> 
> I think the other boys learned that their parents would pay their debt.  I think there should always be consequences for behavior, whether good or bad.



You are so right.  I know adults who still behave without any conscience because their parents (often still) will get them out of whatever stupid things they have done.  It never stops if they never have any consequences.


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## SOS8260456 (May 25, 2012)

geekette said:


> there is a common theme here, "if the kids haven't been in trouble before, why screw up their futures over one mistake?"
> 
> but it wasn't ONE mistake, it was repeating teh same one over and over.  They didn't go to the house one time and trash it, they made it a habit.  If it were One and Done I would be more lenient.  If they admitted the mistake, had contacted the owner, offered cleanup, apologized all over themselves, etc., I would be more lenient.  This is a pattern of wrongdoing, not just one stupid decision.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you.  There was NO remorse shown and it was done more than once and would probably have continued if they hadn't gotten caught.  

As far as losing the scholarship, she should lose out more.  Someone else didn't receive a scholarship because she was selected.  She should be held to a higher standard.

I have a 17 year old and an 18 year old and I would never want to see their lifes ruined because of one stupid mistake.  However, I am constantly drilling into their brains how a stupid mistake can ruin their lives or someone elses.  If my kids were involved in something like this, I would hope that they would take responsibility for their actions and cooperate with the authorities, not hide behind their parents.  I also hope that I would have the courage to make sure they did the right thing even knowing what the possible consequences might be, ie loss of scholarship, jail time, etc

The fact that this was done multiple times makes it 100 times worse.  I also understand about peer pressure, but one of them could have discreetly told their parents who could have discreetly put the bug in the ear of the right people who could have been on the look out for the behaviour and easily caught them in the act.

I hope that it is resolved in a way that can bring Viv some closure on the situation also.  But I think it is very difficult to have closure or forgive something when sincere apologies or attempts to fix the damage have not been made.


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## ace2000 (May 25, 2012)

First my sympathies go to the OP.  I'm sorry to hear about this dilemma.  You did nothing wrong and your home is trashed.  I'd be furious.

You're asking us for opinions on the punishment for the teenage vandals...  who are you talking about?  The ones that did the actual damage?  If this was a party house, then I'd think it would be difficult to prove who did what.  However, someone struck first, and probably opened the house up.  And then you could probably prove who it was that started inviting the others to come to the house.  Beyond that, it will be difficult to pin punishment down to who did what specific damage.  I would think anyways, unless some of the kids turned on the others.

However, you said some of the parents are willing to pay.  I'd be curious to know more about that.  Did they all get together and work it out?  You also seem to have some of the names.  Who are they?  Do the police know for sure that they did some of the damage?

And then you get to the ones that only came to party, but did no damage.  What punishment do they deserve?  It will be an interesting situation to watch, and I'd bet the local newspapers would love to get the details of this story.


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## DebBrown (May 25, 2012)

I have 4 kids who have gotten themselves in various degrees of trouble at that age and they have had to pay the penalty.  It is hard but a fact of life.  I don't think there is any reason for leniency based on scholarships or school records.  With the amount of damage, there is no way anyone can call this an accident.

People survive felony convictions.  They don't get to join the CIA but they do survive, go to college and live productive lives.  Sometimes it is even a wake up call and shapes their lives in a positive way.

ETA:  I just asked my 23yo son his opinion.  He agrees that a conviction is justified but stressed that jail time will do no one any good.  I tend to agree about the jail time.  Probation, restitution and community service are certainly in order.

Deb


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## ace2000 (May 25, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> You also seem to have some of the names.  *Who are they? * Do the police know for sure that they did some of the damage?



LOL - I should clarify... when I asked _who are they_, I meant were they the ones that did actual damages or were they ones that just came to the house.  

I wasn't expecting you to divulge real names.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 25, 2012)

This is a tough one.  You apparently know these people and we don't.  


*First :  Will society be served by their imprisonment? Not likely.
*
      Will jail rehabilitate these kids?  Absolutely not.  It will make them  worse.  I have seen this firsthand many times.

   Will others be deterred by their jailtime.  Highly doubtful but remotely possible. Stupid vandalism can happen at any time.  People don't think about the consequences and are highly unlikely to think about the consequences because someone they knew or read about went to jail. Most people don't think they will get caught in the first place.

*Second:   As the victim will you be served by their imprisonment? Perhaps.*

       Are you more concerned about punishment or payment?  Would their imprisonment make you feel better even if it delays or totally prevents full payment?  Would you be satisifed with only full financial restitution? These are questions that only you can answer.


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## geekette (May 25, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> LOL - I should clarify... when I asked _who are they_, I meant were they the ones that did actual damages or were they ones that just came to the house.
> 
> I wasn't expecting you to divulge real names.



But if I told you that it was Ride, that'd be close enuf, right?


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## Elan (May 25, 2012)

I think hundreds of hours of community service is the best punishment.  There's nothing like hours of menial tasks to allow one to contemplate their choices in life.  Now preferably, they'd be forced to listen to show tunes while they did their community service, but that would likely be considered cruelty.


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## VivianLynne (May 25, 2012)

The troopers have some names and pretty firm evidence - like receipts of stuff in the place with credit card info and eyewitnesses of persons leaving the house with their car license tags.

And again, I don't live in the area, am 1 of 2 persons who are original buyers (37 years ago), and the parents of these teens are perhaps 15-25 years younger than me. When I finished building my house, I was the 3rd completed house; there are still empty/unbuilt 1+ acre lots (above my house and one below & across the street PLUS other lots). I really could not pick out any of the kids as the association SOLD the pool with its lot 15+ years ago.

Besides, if you went to a party and the house was trashed, how fast would YOU get out of there? These kids know by the time they are driving WHO lives where. I bet it was a THRILL to punch out of walls, smash furniture, throw paint everywheres and break up dishes & things --- the forbidden fruit.


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## pjrose (May 25, 2012)

After reading all the responses and learning more details, I'm feeling a bit tougher.  I had missed that this wasn't a one-time have a wild party and trash the house thing.  The paint - BRINGING the paint and deliberately pouring it into electronics - that is premeditated, and that's really really nasty and vicious.   That's not let's have a party and it gets out of hand.  

I believe it was Jim who said that jail would be an alternative if they don't serve the probation/service/etc of the ARD that they will likely get.  I agree with that.  

You first posted this in early March.  Hasn't it hit the paper?  If not, why not?  It's not just a wild party that got out of hand.  

Everyone is right that the vandals, not their parents, should be responsible for the costs.  And if the insurance company pays you, then I certainly hope they are responsible for reimbursing the insurance company.  Why should the insurance company let them off the hook?  And why should your - and my - rates be higher because of a criminal act? 

There have been several instances where DD's actions resulted in costs - for example, totaling my car - an irreplaceable collectible car - without drivers license, and the car was not insured for collision (because we didn't drive it), at other times a window and some other things broken in fits of anger.

Yes, I paid for the broken things and took the hit for the car.  The agreement has always been that once she is working she owes me the money back.  She knows this, but in reality, she got away with me covering it and didn't feel the immediate consequences.  

The example of the soda machine pushed into the pool made me realize that I blew it there.  I SHOULD have made her do chores or other work and had her pay off her debt that way.   Will she eventually pay me back?  I don't know.  Will I take her "bill" off of her part of the inheritance?  I don't know. 

None of this is really your choice, it'll be up to the DA and judge and the defense lawyers, but I really would retain an attorney or look for a victim advocate (the county likely has a brochure about victims' rights and services).  Be sure it isn't just your lone voice out there.  And keep track of every hour spent with paperwork, phone calls, seeking advice, etc, because you should be paid back for those hours too.


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## ace2000 (May 25, 2012)

It looks like the OP started the thread today.  If the insurance company has to pay, there will probably be no doubt the kids would be prosecuted.  If the kid's parents pay, then I would assume the OP could refuse to press charges.  Also, if the OP allows the parents to pay up, would she be guaranteed it would all work out?  

I think that's what's up in the air here.  The story is interesting and I appreciate being able to hear it.  I wish her luck in getting it all undone.


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## pianodinosaur (May 25, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Added thought -
> 
> in my mind the fact that they might have scholarships and all of that is *totally irrelevant*.  I think that punishment should be the same whether you are a rich kid from a wealthy family with a "bright" future or a poor kid who grew up on the wrong side of town with little or no "prospects".
> 
> Justice should be blind.  Class distinctions don't belong in the courtroom.



"Justice, Justice shall you pursue." ---G-d

Our friendly neighborhood caveman sounds just like a scholar who has read and understood the Bible.    

Unfortunately, justice and our legal system sometimes have very little to do with each other.  

"..the punishment fit the crime."  --- Gilbert & Sullivan, The Mikado


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## pjrose (May 25, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> *It looks like the OP started the thread today. * . . . .



The original thread on this, vacation home trashed, was started March 4 
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351
so this has been going on almost three months.  Did it hit the papers at the time?


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## pianodinosaur (May 25, 2012)

My office building was vandalized in 2010 by copper thieves.  I had to shut down my office and my tennants office for several days while getting the repairs.  The damage cost of repairs was about $12,000.  My insurance deductable was $10,000.  

This degree of damage was not in the same category as what you have suffered but it severely impacted my ability to earn a living and my tenants ability to earn a living.  Last year a married couple was found electrocuted while trying to steal copper in the Houston area.  The husband was dead and the wife had to be hospitalized.  They had two small children with them in their pick up truck. I do not know if they are the thieves who vandalized my property or not.  However, I do not feel sorry for them.  I do feel sorry for their children.


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## ace2000 (May 25, 2012)

pjrose said:


> The original thread on this, vacation home trashed, was started March 4
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351
> so this has been going on almost three months. Did it hit the papers at the time?


 
Thanks PJ!  I remember reading that other thread, but didn't know they were the same incident.


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## siesta (May 26, 2012)

pianodinosaur said:


> My office building was vandalized in 2010 by copper thieves.  I had to shut down my office and my tennants office for several days while getting the repairs.  The damage cost of repairs was about $12,000.  My insurance deductable was $10,000.
> 
> This degree of damage was not in the same category as what you have suffered but it severely impacted my ability to earn a living and my tenants ability to earn a living.  Last year a married couple was found electrocuted while trying to steal copper in the Houston area.  The husband was dead and the wife had to be hospitalized.  They had two small children with them in their pick up truck. I do not know if they are the thieves who vandalized my property or not.  However, I do not feel sorry for them.  I do feel sorry for their children.


there is a big difference between kids being vandals, and professionals stealing a valuable and marketable metal. Felony vandalism and Felony grand larceny should be (and often is) treated very differently, even if for the same $$ value.


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## PStreet1 (May 26, 2012)

In my opinion, kids who are vandals do not belong in the same category as "good kids who made a mistake."  Vandalism is a conscious act that every participant knows is wrong.  It's not really an emotional issue--except for the sheep-like following of someone else, but it's hardly emotional unless it stems from hatred, which this one didn't.

I'd prosecute to the full extent of the law.


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## Jaybee (May 26, 2012)

Steve, you always say things so succinctly. I agree with you. Well spoken...again.  "That's the price we pay for the things we do."  (Or, it SHOULD be the price we pay.)


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## csxjohn (May 26, 2012)

*Guilty until proven innocent*



VivianLynne said:


> State Police. I now have the Criminal Investigation Unit trooper.



If the State Police can place a suspect at the house and that suspect won't divulge who did the damage, I'd have to say that suspect did the damage.  

I'd bet that if that person was threatened with being prosecuted she/he would finger the real culprits.

Of Course we're talking about Pa where Big Ben bought his way out of prosecution and the fiasco at Penn state recently.  So I'm not convinced the Pa state police are interested in justice.


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## Pat H (May 26, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> Of Course we're talking about Pa where Big Ben bought his way out of prosecution and the fiasco at Penn state recently.  So I'm not convinced the Pa state police are interested in justice.



I spent 23 yrs working with all levels of PA Law Enforcement. That's a ridiculous statement to make.


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## csxjohn (May 27, 2012)

*You are right,*



Pat H said:


> I spent 23 yrs working with all levels of PA Law Enforcement. That's a ridiculous statement to make.



I apologize to all the hard working law enforcement people who have a very hard job.

When national news stories seem to infer the short comings of a few individuals, human nature links them to other, similar stories.

When I read this story and the original thread I kept wondering how this could be a problem when they can place an individual in the damaged house.  Then my mind went back to the Penn State investigation where the news reports made me think that the State Police were trying to protect well connected people.

It was ridiculous on my part to make this statement since I don't know the facts in any of these cases.  But this is how people's opinions are made.  

I hope I am wrong in making these assumptions and will be more careful in the future.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.


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## Mosca (May 27, 2012)

In PA, the perception of the state police is generally a very good one. They aren't a bunch of cowboys. They are highly trained and tend to follow the book.


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## VivianLynne (May 30, 2012)

Monday starts the 4th full (5 work day) travel week to the vacation house. 6AM is pickup the tools and start the 2hr 15 min ride. I have had 4 other 2+ overnight stays up there and 2 run up & back in a day trips.

Goal is to finish the bathroom; set some of the kitchen cabinets (if they have arrived) and if no cabinets, go to staining doors and trim.

Still have a pile of paperwork to complete for the insurance company.

PS ... Thanks to everyone's input on their opinion's of punishment options for the teenagers. It was great to read that my anger is not wrong but is part of the grieving process and coping process. If I have to write or speak about HOW this has effected _me_, I want to communicate clearly and effectively. Lots of very good comments and personal experiences. So multiple THANK YOU's...


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## pjrose (May 30, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> . . .
> 
> Goal is to finish the bathroom; *set some of the kitchen cabinets (if they have arrived) and if no cabinets, go to staining doors and trim.*
> 
> ...



I think I must have missed that you are doing the physical labor.  THAT should be done by certain teenagers, though I dunno that I'd want them in or near my house or sight.  

I hope you are keeping track of those hours and listing them @ the prevailing rate for carpentry etc!  Our do-it-all handyman gets $30/hour.


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## VivianLynne (Jun 2, 2012)

pjrose said:


> I think I must have missed that you are doing the physical labor.  ....  Our do-it-all handyman gets $30/hour.



PJ - I have a handyman also - about the same rate who comes up with me for the week (10 hour days). We are there every 3rd week due to his wife's shift work schedule and their pets. They have a pet-sitter relative during her dayshift, but NOT the 3-11 or 11-7 shift when he is normally home.

We can't stay at the house - there is nothing NOT totally destroyed. We have been camped out at Wyndham Shawnee with the help of a Wyndham owner - 4 nights from Monday night thru Friday AM checkout. While it is a 22 mile ride each way, the Home Depot and Lowes are both on the way. He leaves for the house at 6:15AM and I am allowed to be lazy til 7:30 or so, when I call him (_what DID we do before cell phones??_?) for any add-ons to the day's shopping list. We each have a pickup truck which truly helps to lug stuff.

I just did not want someone else to "put the old stuff back" - the replacement _junk_ from doors to cabinets is mostly pressed paper products which look good for 3 months and then start to peel apart or warp in a vacation house. 

Yes, I could have picked from a picture book - but how many times, does a contractor stay, "That has been discontinued and I picked this as similiar as the guys had to install it NOW." I did not need battles every day over their profit maximizing B.S. And the insurance woman was just pushing this "little old lady" into her handpicked contractor. Remember, she thought I had built this house in 1972 (40 years ago) as a vacation home. Would have made me to be in my mid/late 80s.  (as most vacation home people are 45+/- yo when they build a 2nd home). It was 1977 and I chose to have a very small vacation home instead of a BIG primary home.

I did buy a converted FIXED week off ebay - gives me 166,000 pts. But it will most likely close AFTER we finish the vacation house. 

Our plan this coming trip (Mon Jun 4th start) is to finish the bathroom. Pickup the kitchen cabinets. Finish painting the LR - as the trooper collected more evidence when I came up to order the KIT cabinets on a daytrip 10 days ago. Cut out the old door jams. Perhaps install the new door jams.

Next trip will be to finish installing the cabinets, order the countertop (or start to make), get the appliances out of LR as we need the space to stain the interior woodwork doors & trim. Then, we will be ready to put the new LR/DR hardwood floors down. Rug in the bedrooms.

Still need to get the windows (I had so wanted my wood windows back, but looks like those sizes are just not made outside of $$$$$ custom). Replacement windows can be put in 1/2 a day without altering the sheetrock AND siding. 

Need to get a new 20" stove and 30" rangehood. Will order those after this trip. Stainless steel, white or black???? I have been looking but my decision will be after I see the cabinets and floor done with some price considerations ... hey, I can dream, but realize it will most likely be white. Have been looking at lighting in KIT also (LCD track is winning).


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## VivianLynne (Jun 10, 2012)

*More houses trashed near mine .....*

Grabbed a cheap diner breakfast on Tues morning. Just the waitress and I at the diner and we got to chatting. Turns out she lives in a development (about the same age) just a 1/2 mile as the crow flies or around the cornor from my development for the last 28-30 years. She was stunned by the level of damaged I described - done by teenagers.

Go back on Friday AM and another waitress is working. She is the owner's wife as their waitress had an emergency; her and her 86yo neighbor's house had both been broken into with the windows smashed, trashed and spray painted inside. Owner's wife said they had been vacant and people were arrested. I was leaving when I was told this. 

Then I remembered my internet searches on the teenage girls' soccer team had a varsity player FROM that development. *WOW*! Could this be a LINK to my breakin? If they arrested people and they were processed with fingerprints, could we get MORE hits for my damages? Could these/my teenagers NOW get charged with 3 damaged houses? There are 79 lots (less than 65 houses) in my development and the other development is just a bit larger (I believe). The HS covers 3 decent size townships and there were less than 15 girls on the varsity team. With practices and games, it is VERY likely these girls rode in the same car to/from school. These were the only 2 girls who lived near my house.

Will call my State Police Criminal Investigator on Monday......

PS My brother, the criminal lawyer, was thinking this is too interesting ...


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## VivianLynne (Jun 10, 2012)

*Progress Report on repairs.*

Finished setting the bathtub, started the tile around the tub wall. Hung the Kitchen cabinets, move the stove and refrigerator into their position, measure for microwave rangehood. Sinkbase was damaged by store - new one on re-order. Hotwater heater was installed in laundry area.

Need to order LR/DR hardwood floor for next time; bring up new bedroom and kit & bathroom windows.

Insurance adjustor was surprised and pleased with our work. Lvved my tile job in the bath & kitchen, esp the infloor heating.

Good progress!


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 10, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> Grabbed a cheap diner breakfast on Tues morning. Just the waitress and I at the diner and we got to chatting. Turns out she lives in a development (about the same age) just a 1/2 mile as the crow flies or around the cornor from my development for the last 28-30 years. She was stunned by the level of damaged I described - done by teenagers.
> 
> Go back on Friday AM and another waitress is working. She is the owner's wife as their waitress had an emergency; her and her 86yo neighbor's house had both been broken into with the windows smashed, trashed and spray painted inside. Owner's wife said they had been vacant and people were arrested. I was leaving when I was told this.
> 
> ...



There is a saying 'don't add gas to a brush fire' (or something like that)


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## pjrose (Jun 10, 2012)

Yes the other break-ins are VERY interesting.  I'm sure the investigators will want to check for commonalities.  If it's these kids, then I think the S will HTF.


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## VivianLynne (Jun 24, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Yes the other break-ins are VERY interesting.  I'm sure the investigators will want to check for commonalities.  If it's these kids, then I think the S will HTF.



Not the same area. Owner's wife and I were NOT talking about the waitress who lives near me. That "vandalized" waitress and I did talk on Friday - I came up to drop off a load of hardwood flooring I had brought at an outlet near me. She drove into her house they were moving out of and found kids inside her garage - with the help of Facebook and her preteen daughter, she id'ed the 2 kids "who were just looking"; State police got those 2 kids within an hour or two - still wearing the clothes she saw them in.

State police arrested those two 14-15 year old boys. The elderly neighbor's house just had a broken window - she has been in hospital since April; waitress's garage had a lot of tools gone and her house was vandalized; a lot of spray paint. Her insurance company is telling her that policy was NOT for a vacant house - they had moved 30+ days earlier to a new house. She will have a battle - but she was in the process of moving, still got mail there (not at new place), etc. She had been to the house just the day before - damage was all done within a 24 hours window.


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## VivianLynne (Jun 24, 2012)

*Realized I am battle weary --- 2-3 hour drive is "Zoombie Zone" time*

Okay, I have 3/4" hardwood flooring - a total of 49 cases of it - purchased. This means the WHOLE house will be hardwood flooring. Now 24 of the cases are at the Poconos house. 25 left to move. Ran a load up on Friday and did some local material pickup. Rain was/is forecasted for Monday and Tuesday up there/on the drive up; hardwood floor does NOT like being wet. I also picked up my replacement Kitchen Cabinet (sinkbase), some unfinished oak trim boards, and misc supplies for the re-building project. Spent 5+ hours emptying the storage bdr closet into the upper kitchen cabinet - after lining the cabinets with rubbermaid shelf liners.

Did a 2nd load of wood on Saturday morning again. And brought up the hand truck to move some appliances and a collection of drop clothes. 

I noticed that on the way home - time has begun to have no meaning. It is just a mindless road with traffic. Doing 75+ MPH. Under construction. Lanes are narrowed, no shoulders, and big tracker-trailer trucks. And throw in the Friday afternoon - going to the shore traffic.  Saturday home bound traffic was much lighter.

And tomorrow is the Monday - start of another full week at the house. Worst than full, as this will be a 7 day stint. The fellow doing the work is adding on Saturday and Sunday, so he can take off for a 7 day trip over July 4th. 

I think I will buy a CASE of beer for my week. That is only 3 beers a night, if I hoard them.:rofl:


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## VivianLynne (Jun 24, 2012)

*Did the unthinkable - emailed by ex-bf - no talked to in 5+ years.*

Yes, I have a longterm ex-bf. Dated 10+ years; his family hated me; he was a travelling out of town cheating S.O.S. But he did live at the house in the Poconos while working as an engineer north of there - for over a year and he paid rent & utitilies. Yes, I guess I knew him fairly well after 10+ years; he has some very strong opinions of me also. 

Figured as a CYA type of person, he would have taken "inventory" pictures of the house contents. Am still working on my listed of "damage or missing personal property" for the insurance claim. He might NOT like me, but he liked that house and if he doesn't have to see or talk to me, he might _like_ to help free some money from any insurance company. Should I mention he was a VW Camper Bus, acid dropping Hippie Flower Child of the 60's who wore his hair down to his waist and lived on the West Coast?

I stopped by his house here - not answering his door, but his car was home. Decided he was avoiding me, so I did the email by simple request yesterday. He answer about being in Southeast Asia for the next 5-6 weeks travelling. He will look through his photos after he returns home beginning of August. As I knew, he emailed that he really liked that house and sorry to here it was so damaged. I replied with the Friday photos of the partially re-done Kitchen and Bath rooms.

As I have mention before - I have owned that house almost my entire adult life. I built it for $27,000 plus the cost of the 1 acre lot ($7,000). It has a lot of my history and a lot of memories. It will be almost a new house with 2012 finishes. I hope the house and I have fun making some great new memories. It is just the pain and sore muscles of moving those 7' long, 50.9 pound boxes of wood - all 24 of them; only 25 left to move.


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## csxjohn (Jun 24, 2012)

Make sure you let that flooring acclimate to its new environment before you install it.  The required time will be in the installation instructions.

Glad to see things are progressing.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 24, 2012)

VivianLynne -

Had a couple of cups of coffee between 7AM and 8AM this morning? :ignore: 

Keep up the good work.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 1, 2012)

Just got back from the house about 2 hours ago. Am going laundry and enjoying the air conditioning. If I had WINDOWS, I would have put the window A/C unit into a WINDOW and had A/C there also. But with cardboard and a stick outside, we did get a 5,000 BTU unit pumping some cool air in. I also dragged out the dehumidifier - ran both of them.

Finally, got an agreement from the insurance, myself and my help on windows... so, I ordered the 4 WINDOW :whoopie:  16-23 days before they come in. Might be there for the next trip. I also ordered the interior solid wood stain-grade 6 panel doors - to get the $400 rebate. Again - just 4 interior doors.

Found the perfect solution for a small kitchen with very limited countertop space - a rangehood convection oven microwave unit - a Viking unit. Let me tell you, it will bake cupcakes, broil a steak, and nuke water -- all for $1700.  Asked if the model unit in their display needed to be replaced - Yes, I am a wise *ss. Fellow who was helping me said (and installed/designs the displays) said he didn't think it was that old. But he would go look -  It was last re-done in 2006 ... And the store sold that one to me as a decent discount. Now looking for a drop in countertop burner unit - GE makes a radiant 2 burner unit - which I will ask another of my friends, what can he help me out on the discount for that from their GE owned store.

Hardwood flooring - completed the living room, dining room and down part of the hallway. This is a hard job - but does it look wonderful! It is a white oak, 2 3/4 inches wide, random length (1 ft to 7ft boards) and pre-finished with a dark finish. It goes perfect with the porocilen tiles in the bath & kitchen; eventually, also the tiles go in front door area. The Kitchen cabinets look nice also. 

Got the Kitchen light fixture up also - it is a bendable metel rod (flexible like a HARD rope) with 5 movable light cans. There was never any good light in the kitchen before.

Painted the walls in the living room and dining room. A very pale green color.

Finished the tiling the shower walls and grouted them. Started setting the repainted bathroom vanities (2 30" units), putting new hardware on them, and a new floor also. Painted the walls a light tan.

Found a NEW problem. The wire for the stove from th panel box was to be moved for the cook top - to inside the base cabinet. It was a bit short - like 6 inches. But we discovered it is shiney aluminmum and not copper. That should be replaced - I would truly hate to burn the house down after doing all this work. The hot water heater has copper wiring as does the rest of the house.

I want to again thank the Wyndham staff at Shawnee --- we arrived with 4 different reservations for the 6 night trip this time. In 3 different HOAs; with a 1 bdr unit for 1 night and overlapping 1 night with 2 2bdr units. The back office of the front desk helped us in NOT moving at all during our stay. I am sure the place was 100% occupied. And they found us a place in about an hour of waiting. This was our/my 8th stay - and our longest to date. With the hottest weather.

Only 2 weeks from tomorrow, for our next fun filled adventure trip ... windows, I hope! Final kitchen cabinet arrives; above rangehood and cooktop. Wait, the cooktop means - countertop needs to be in ... might not happen. But the rangehood will be installed. The refrigerator has been inplace for the last 2 visits.


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## pjrose (Jul 1, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> . . .
> Finally, got an agreement from the insurance. . .



I am tired just reading all the work you've been doing.  I'm amazed you're doing it yourself, but is that because the insurance won't cover having it contracted out?

What has the insurance company agreed to?

Any update on the police investigation and the vandals?


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## VivianLynne (Jul 2, 2012)

pjrose said:


> I am tired just reading all the work you've been doing.  I'm amazed you're doing it yourself, but is that because the insurance won't cover having it contracted out?  The insurance company perfers that work be done by licensed contractors. Quality done by many homeowners and done in a timely manner are big concerns. As for doing it all myself, I have a construction junkie doing most of the physical labor. I am the designer, buyer, run & fetch gal and the 3rd hand expert. When you are miles from any store, just getting the _thing_, is a 2 hour trip.
> 
> What has the insurance company agreed to? Agreed to egress windows and the alter the wood framing of the building - code allows for replacement of the exact size, but does NOT allow you to alter downward the size - to save money. The insurance policy is for replacement costs - stain grade wood is NOT white vinyl plastic windows.
> 
> Any update on the police investigation and the vandals? Not at this time.



PJ, 
The biggest reason I am doing the work myself is CONTROL of the finish product. I have to spend the TIME up there while repairs are being done anyways ... rather not have to deal with labor who show up at 10AM after promising me a 7AM appearance. I want a very good finished product. I know a little bit about construction (okay, more than the average person), play with design ideas knowing how I use the house, and have an available and able guy who needs the extra money for his personal plans (to pay for his daughter's wedding in Sept). 

Having owned this place for 35+ years, I have a lot of memories of being there. I have been a gyspy in my personal residences with the longest period of time being 8 years (and I did not like that house particularly) to less than 13 months several times. If you sat outside on the deck there, you would understand how a summer's day is a breeze blowing thru the trees and the clouds moving across the sky. In the winter, burning wood in the fireplace and reading a book as it snows is how that season goes. It is totally wooded, few cars, no walkers or bikers - it is very peaceful.

So when this is all done, I will have a NEW house and it will reflect what I need and want today. It will have a soaker tub (installed), a smaller kitchen footprint. more light from windows in the bedroom (and safer, too), hardwood floors (with fine wood area rugs), infloor bath & kitchen heating and fresh paint. 

If I have to do be there anyways, it is NOT more work to get what I want --- it is less work to not be fighting with a contractor who wants a bigger cut of the insurance company's repair money.


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## MuranoJo (Jul 4, 2012)

Sounds like this may be an entirely different, more luxurious (improved) place than prior to the vandal incident.  Therefore also seems you must be putting a lot of personal funds (as well as elbow grease) into this.

The way you've described the area, it sounds wonderful and well worth all the work you're putting into it.


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## Talent312 (Jul 4, 2012)

muranojo said:


> The way you've described the area, it sounds wonderful and well worth all the work you're putting into it.



Indeed. It sounds like a great project.
I might have just hired a contractor and said, "Call me when its finished."


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## Passepartout (Jul 4, 2012)

Viv, from your description, it really sounds like your 'new' all season, vacation home is coming together. Congratulations are in order! 

When I initially read of the heartbreak of the vandalism and your efforts to find the culprits and then the rebuilding process it strikes close. We will be needing to do a similar re-do of DW's Dads house that he built with his hands in 1955. It hasn't suffered from vandalism yet, just 30 years of 'deferred maintenance.' OK, neglect.  DW has read the ongoing accout and asked, "Why doesn't she just hire it all done? Isn't that what insurance is for?" after your explanation to PJ, up a couple of replies, DW saw the logic in your hard, hands-on work. You get what YOU want, not just what a contractor thinks you want on your terms.

Thank you for the step-by-step guide through your rebuild. It allows me to see what lies ahead.

Autumn in the woods in your new home will be wonderful and you will have such a sense of accomplishment.

Jim


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## VivianLynne (Jul 4, 2012)

Thanks, Jim. When I built that house, it was a deluxe place. 35+ years ago. It had a cracked local stone fireplace and triangle fixed glass windows in the cathedral LR/DR area of the house. The KIT had a dishwasher and a breakfast bar. There was a laundry closet with a full size washer & dryer. The bedrooms had full wall length closets. There was a dual vanity in the bathroom.

But today other things define luxury. I went with a soaker tub so as to not have jets and a pump. I picked 36" tall cabinets, but fewer to keep storage space. I figured out handwashing a few dishes was better than keeping space for a DW. I eat out more and have fewer cooked meals for guests. I like hardwood floors and nice area rugs.

As for your FIL's cabin, plan before you spend $ or taking a hammer or sawall to anything. A 1955 cabin might need new electric wiring. The rooms might be more cutup/smaller. You most likely have a screened porch. You might need central heat. Decide what character YOU want to keep or style of your finished product. Knotted pine board walls if still unpainted might looked super on a wall or two as an accent. Pine shelves in a kitchen with a low ceilings can look great with Fieasta dishes - esp if you need more expensive items like a roof, windows, well, etc.

I needed a place to journal this work. TUGGERs are great.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 4, 2012)

muranojo said:


> Sounds like this may be an entirely different, more luxurious (improved) place than prior to the vandal incident.  Therefore also seems you must be putting a lot of personal funds (as well as elbow grease) into this.
> 
> The way you've described the area, it sounds wonderful and well worth all the work you're putting into it.



Personnal funds are not too much. My labor and "deals" on buying stuff helps. I get 10% off most stuff by buying at the PRO desk at Home Depot, if not on sale. I brought HD STOCK kitchen cabinets on sale. Walmart paint. Discount hardwood flooring on clearance - $2.50 per sq ft for 3/4 in finished white oak.  Display rangehood; cooktop from a local store for $25 less than other vendors. 

And I have gone back to the insurance adjustor several times for addons or code requirements necessaities.

But I will spend my money for engery updates or safety items.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 4, 2012)

I promise pictures of the finished vacation house - plus an Open House date to my TUG friends.


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## pjrose (Jul 4, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> I promise pictures of the finished vacation house - plus an Open House date to my TUG friends.



Woo hoo...I was going to joke about an invite but you said it first!


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## VivianLynne (Jul 5, 2012)

Ordered the small 2 burner cooktop from my friend - he cut 15% off the cost.  

Need to go check on my rangehood/convection oven etc....

Next week will go to the granite yard which I have been looking at for several months on my drive to/from Shawnee and the house.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 20, 2012)

Just got back from another 5 day WORK week/vacation stay at Shawnee. On Tuesday, my mechanic informed me that he could do NEXT WEEK also. Great - no Shawnee units and 2 hotel rooms for 4 nights is around $575. It really does make timesharing so nice - a 2bdr unit instead of 2 hotel rooms.

I get to sleep in my bed for 3 nights - wow! But the price is 2 days of weekend shopping for paint for the bedrooms plus the other 14 items on my list needed for MONDAY.

It was HOT this past week - got a second air conditioner installed by taking the saw and cutting a hole in the 3/4" plywood covering the _former_ window. It was only slightly cooler.

Seems Lowes has a computer tracking system based on illusion and delusion. The assistant store manager while I was 3-way called into the 1-800-Lowes customer service complaint line walked to receiving and found my SPECIAL ORDER WINDOWS ($2,000 for 4 windows) had been there for 1.5+ days. Late Thursday just allows us to unpack one unit, size the hole from inside the house, and make plans. If I had gotten them on Wednesday, several would have been installed by now. As we are going back on Monday, all those windows will be in by the installed by next Friday afternoon.

Now ask me about my SPECIAL ORDERED interior doors - the Lowes computer system is saying they are "SHIPPED" - just like my windows were shipped for 7+ days. Will have to go find the assistant store manager - on Monday.

So what got done:
The discovered last time aluminum range wire (the 220 line) from the panel box to the stove; it has now been replaced. Had to open up the wall under the panel box (break the sheetrock out) and run 36 feet of wire in the crawl space. New insurance whine will be needed to cover the cost for that repair. But I surely did not want the rebuilt house to burn down.

Most of the hardwood flooring in the hallway and 1/2 of the smaller bdr. The sink base cabinet was set with the plumbing connections thru the floor. The 2 old vanities were fixed with new bottoms (and painted last trip) and also set in the bathroom with the plumbling connections. The new vanity double bowl with new faucets got installed. Mirror connectors positioned and installed; 2 new vanity lights where I had to repositioned the lights for the tilting mirrors. New hall ceiling light installed. New bathroom ceiling light installed. 

The porclein floor tile in the entry way was started.

*And best of all *- a toilet was installed. No more visiting my personal tree in the woods or driving the 4 miles to use the CVS public bathroom.

*Second BEST *- my Viking rangehood/convection oven/microwave was installed and is working. It is so quiet - you can watch TV next to it and hear the TV. Except I have no TV since my 3 TVs either had paint poured into or rattled when moved (that will be a future shopping trip).

On this coming Monday, the granite people come to make a templet. Friday might be granite installation day. Hope we will have time to set the 2 (two) burner radiant cooktop before we leave. Need to move more hardwood flooring to house from my garage - only 1 box left up there.

I think I have lost another 5 lbs this past week. Just too tired to take off my shoes and walk to the bedroom. My tight shorts are loose as I sit here on the computer writing this update.


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## jerseygirl (Jul 20, 2012)

VL - I enjoy these updates so much.  I know it's been awful (and I hope the perpetrators are punished) ... but I see a very happy ending in your future!


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## pjrose (Jul 20, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> . . .
> 
> *And best of all *- a toilet was installed. No more visiting my personal tree in the woods or driving the 4 miles to use the CVS public bathroom.
> 
> ...



OMG, no toilet all this time?  That would have been first on my list.  Props to you for putting up with the outdoor facilities this long!  

I wouldn't mind losing the weight, but not the way you've done it.

Any news on the vandals?


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## DazedandConfused (Jul 20, 2012)

I would love to see before and after pictures


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## VivianLynne (Jul 20, 2012)

pjrose said:


> OMG, no toilet all this time?  That would have been first on my list.  Props to you for putting up with the outdoor facilities this long!
> 
> I wouldn't mind losing the weight, but not the way you've done it.
> 
> Any news on the vandals?



First, to install a toilet you need a floor with a finished flooring.  Note: Bathroom still has no door.:ignore: So indoor bathroom still an adventure.

Most likely water weight due to heat and too much night time brandy drinking on this trip.

Called state trooper but did not get a call back.

Also, until TODAY, the only running water at the property was at the end of a garden hose off the deck outside. Personal tree looking better?


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## pjrose (Jul 20, 2012)

Yep, tree's looking better, that's for sure!


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## VivianLynne (Jul 20, 2012)

Yes, I have pictures. More than 2 or 3. But several of the rooms are looking pretty nice in the last week. You can identify the kitchen as a kitchen verses as trash pile.

Could someone send me via PM the TUG (for idiot) way to up from my hard disk to this thread?

TIA ...

ADDED:
Looked over the sticky post and just don't have the time - very short weekend. The AOL option is kaupt or going away very soon. I have to go shopping at Home Depot, again.... where everyone knows my name in 2 states and 3 stores.


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## pjrose (Jul 20, 2012)

Viv,
Just go to the sticky post at the top of the Lounge.
You have to use a picture hosting service, such as Snapfish etc.
PJ


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## VivianLynne (Jul 27, 2012)

*Bonus Week of work from my handyman ...*

Just got back from ANOTHER week in the Poconos. Back to back work weeks - only this time we had to stay in 2 hotels rooms down the street instead of Wyndham Shawnee Resort. 

Long week. Got 3 of the 4 new windows installed. Let me tell you, egress windows are big! And heavy when made out of wood. We got them into the first floor bedrooms after making the openings BIGGER. If they had been on the 2nd floor or higher off the ground, I could NOT have helped lift, hold, push and secure those buggers. But they look sooo nice. Did not get the kitchen unit in - I think mainly because the air conditioning is in that window. Bath and both bedrooms installed, but not yet trimmed out either inside or outside.

Smaller bedroom 3/4" hardwood floor is done. Sheetrock is painted my new color. 

Larger bedroom window wall is taped with first coat of mud. Room has been out supply room and that is now moved. Ceiling is painted.

Bathroom plumbing is fixed and hookup with hot water to hot water valves all the way around. I installed a shower caddy, but was ordered to NOT install the shower curtain (rod was installed). Double sink vanity and new sinktop with new 8" center faucets really look nice. I had to resand the doors to the vanities due to some paint problem (paint did NOT gloss, but does now - don't paint in direct sun ). Did not have time to repaint the doors with all the other running I was doing.

Started staining ALL the new doors and woodwork. ME only, as my handiman has a childhood hatred of doing that work. He does like to bust on me as to how much more work I have to do and HE is adamant he will not do ANY of it. 
He is even telling me that I will be up in the Poconos alone for several more weeks - staining and poly-ur-phening. I will have to figure out a way to get even. He also tells me I am slower at it than anyone else he has ever seen.

We also attacked the ants. Big black ants. In the house, on the deck, crawling up the block walls, in the crawl space. After taking out the windows, we figured out the original builder did not believe in using ANY CAULK, anywheres, ever. I have T1-11 cedar sliding and after 35 years and several stainings, is still very sound. But no caulk with T1-11 means lots of channels for the ants to get into the frame of the house.

Granite countertop people could have been there NEXT Thursday - but I was not pleasant in talking to him. Most likely I went a week or two lower on the install list - but I did not want to drive back there again in 5 days. 

Of course, the handyman loved the shorter drive to the job site as I whined about the double cost for motels rooms for this past week. He got to enjoy the teenage girls' giggy-fest and their mother yelling at them from midnight for 2 hours as they roosted in the hallway outside his room. I had called the front desk when I heard them around 10:30PM and the security guard "shuss" them. But they came back and I was sound asleep, not hearing them the 2nd time go-around. He would NEVER admit that Wyndham timeshares are better than a motel. I ate the free continental breakfast every AM as he usually leaves 45-60 minutes before it opened up.

I hauled a truckload of trash back home with me today - mostly the old wood windows, siding, some 2x4's and old trim from the house. Left behind a bunch of construction debris - next trip.  Made an earlier trash run on RUN home on Tuesday for my elderly aunt (86yo) with the tax assessor; so I booked a visit to see my doctor. Either we generated a whole LOT of trash this week or it has been in hiding the past month or two. There is still another pickup truck full in the yard up there now - sheetrock scraps, more wood flooring scraps, and 5 black trash bags full.

*Moral of story this week*: Don't yell at the granite guy on the phone. Staying at timeshares are cheaper, quieter and better for sleeping. Construction trash reproduces and multiples all by itself.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2012)

Did you stain the door to the bathroom YET?


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## VivianLynne (Jul 30, 2012)

PHOTOS!!!! 26 of them - both before and after. Be sure to go to Page 2.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/7679619016/in/photostream/


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## VivianLynne (Jul 30, 2012)

*Posted Pictures of Poconos Vacation house ...*

On the other thread.

Finally. 

Moderators: Please leave this up for a day or two .... many Tuggers had been asking about pictures. And I finally figured out how to post via Flickr.


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## pedro47 (Jul 30, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> On the other thread.
> 
> Finally. Flickr link.
> 
> Moderators: Please leave this up for a day or two .... many Tuggers had been asking about pictures. And I finally figured out how to post via Flickr.



Can you give us the website link?  I would love to see your pictures.


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## jerseygirl (Jul 30, 2012)

It's looking great!  Love the tile, the floors, the cabinets ... Everything!


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## pjrose (Jul 30, 2012)

Very nice.  When can I move in?

I think I saw only one before picture - the Corelle on the rug - how awful. Do you have more pics of the vandalism?


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## DeniseM (Jul 30, 2012)

I will link it to the other thread so people can find it easily, and leave new link up for a week.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 30, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Very nice.  When can I move in?
> 
> I think I saw only one before picture - the Corelle on the rug - how awful. Do you have more pics of the vandalism?



I have upload more damage pictures to Flickr.


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## ace2000 (Jul 30, 2012)

Wow, you've been through a lot.  I'd guess if they took on the project of painting walls that someone decided to take up a homestead in your house.  Seems like it'd be pretty easy to find out who it was.


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## pjrose (Jul 30, 2012)

OMG, that was definitely malicious and premeditated (bringing paint doesn't happen without planning).  Definitely not a few teens having a pizza and beer party.  

Please keep us posted on what's happening with the police and charges.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 30, 2012)

pjrose said:


> OMG, that was definitely malicious and premeditated (bringing paint doesn't happen without planning).  Definitely not a few teens having a pizza and beer party.
> 
> Please keep us posted on what's happening with the police and charges.



Paint, sheetrock mud, moving all the stuff around the house or outside, drawing hearts with names around the fireplace, breaking up all the furniture, etc.

Plus, the beer containers, volka, pizza boxes outside, drug baggies, condoms (used), etc. Plus missing stuff - not broken, but missing like 11 blankets, Dansk coffee mugs, kitchen knives, pots and pans, hand and bath towels.


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## Passepartout (Jul 30, 2012)

Viv, your work looks great and you have every right to be proud. You will have a true year-round home and not just a 'Summer Cabin' when finished. A real asset. Congratulations. Thanks for sharing the photos of your progress. I can only imagine what the 'before' would have looked like.

Jim


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## VivianLynne (Jul 30, 2012)

Added some of the before repair pictures.

Yes, walking into the trashed and damaged place was shocking. 

I have had the house for over 35 years. I had it built and I picked out all the furniture. I even had replaced the LR and DR furniture (upgraded it) over the years. I have many, many memories of things I did in the area, friends who came there for weekends with me, several ski trips with friends as far as Atlanta, boyfiends who loved the place. It was very well insulated - with a builder friend and I installing a plastic vapor barrier over the 3.5 inches of pink stuff before the sheetrockers came in. The old wood windows were double pane (Crestline) and not drafty like several newer houses I lived in over the years. The stone fireplace was a piece of art - mostly undamaged - having the rocks cracked onsite as it was built.

I spent 5 days over 2 trips up there just sorting thru stuff, filling trash bags, meeting the insurance people, photographing damages & items still there, filling storage tubs, and picking up outdoor litter. It was worst than moving back home - these items were mostly beyond saving - just shards of my past. All the pictures, paints and prints on the walls were totally destroyed - frames, glass, etc. My one oil painting was slashed and diced (not that I liked it a lot, but it was mine and not theirs to destroyed).

When I had the dumpster delivered and my handyman came up with me - he had boarded up the house with the insurance adjuster as I was in Florida - he was shocked as to how much I had bagged and cleaned. We pretty much filled a 40 yard dumpster in 2 days. And spent another 3 days gutting the house.

I have spent many hours deciding the styles, then the what and how of the look I want for the house. It has frustrated my worker, had me spending hours LOOKING at stuff, returning the MAYBEs when I decide they should become NOs.

And I have done almost nothing about furniture - yet. I really would like a bathroom door with a lockset on it! 

Dang, I haven't looked at or brought any interior door locksets for the house (going for the levered ones, I think).


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## MuranoJo (Aug 1, 2012)

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. The damage done was incredible.  It almost looked like they had moved in (moved furniture around), yet totally destroyed their free accommodations.  Sick.  

You've done a lot of hard work and it looks great.  But what's the status of getting these guys?  I saw at least one person's name painted on a wall (not that it means they were there).  And, what will prevent this from happening again?


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## SueDonJ (Aug 1, 2012)

Boy, Viv, I've been following this thread all along and want to say that you've done an incredible job.  It's heartbreaking looking at your pics and I can't believe how angry it made me to see that girl's name on the wall.  It must have been a thousand times worse for you when you first saw it.

Thanks for sharing your labor of love.


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## VivianLynne (Aug 1, 2012)

Names on the walls included: Kaitlyn, TJ, and Katie. 

Katie in a heart was on both sides of the fireplace mantel in RED and inside a Red Heart. Both of those were covered over with sheetrock mud (not my sheetrock mud). We sanded off the sheet rock mud to level the surface before repainting and uncovered the "art work". State Police came and took a pictures to add to their evidence.

I loved the door to the small bedroom which had written on it facing towards the hall: PRIVATE - KEEP OUT.

Yes, everything in the house had been sorted, mostly moved, much broken, lots of damage with either their BLUE paint or a partial gallon can of my green LR paint. There was also a lot of stuff just plain MISSING.

We had the house totally emptied of everything damaged the first work trip there (my handyman and I). It made it easier as then it looked more like just some shell - a blank canvas. 

We have been up there 7 work weeks of 5 days 10 hour days - I missed a week for a sibling event. 650 man hours basicly. I have made several trips - both day trips and over night trips - independant of those work weeks - another 100+ hours. We have 210 hours scheduled for August - mostly my handyman. I can't count without looking for receipts and the travel log, the number of roundtrip runs I have made up there - about 125 miles each way - as I sometimes have to make 1 or 2 trips home every work week. And nothing is closeby - I easily use 3 -4 tanks of gas each week -260 miles a tank/ 14 miles per gallon - as I use my 4x4 pickup truck. I would get double the gas mileage using the car - but the car doesn't carry building material real well.

Plus the Wyndham points reservations stays and the one hotel stay ($560 for 4 nights  ).


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## VivianLynne (Aug 18, 2012)

Another couple of weeks have gone by. My handyman has spent 11 works days up there since my last post. I made 1 RT daytrip, as I had a trip planned with the extended family - I could not get out of it and I tried very hard not to go. And some business meetings at work before I left also.  I am supposed to be up there starting tomorow for 3 or 4 days to stain woodwork - doors and trim.

We (as he would say, _we_?) got the granite countertop in, set the sink and finished that plumbing, 2 doors hung (but not the bathroom), trimmed out 1 bedroom totally, painted the other bedroom, put up the mirror and lights in the bathroom, finished installing ALL the hardwood flooring, installed several of the repainted electric baseboard heaters, installed outlets/switch covers and added to the trash pile. I will bring trash home again with me when I come back in the pickup.

The Pella repairman will be there August 29th to fix/replaced the damaged window I got from Lowes - the lower sash window had the wood delaminated. Plus, I have to help install the kitchen window during the next trip there - last week of August.

Called the PA State Police trooper - who had another 2 kids who admitted to being there, but didn't do any damage. The kid count is up to 6 now, but who was doing the damage count is 0 - ZERO. Yes, they saw other persons there and doing damage, but they didn't know their names - retarded Honor Roll students? 5.5 months since the girls were seen leaving the house.

Then I called the insurance adjustor - who told me she had just finished a letter asking for receipts and list of contents damaged or missing on the house from me. And I passed on the trooper's comments. The insurance company will most likely go hunting for repayment AFTER I get the total money for all the house damages. Still looking at $65-80,000 for everything - including stuff the insurance company isn't covering (timeshare stays, gas & tolls, food, photos) of which about $60-70,000 will be the insurance payment to me.

*Now the house as it is getting more done, it is looking empty.* When I walked in yesterday, my impression was - the LR and DR area is so empty. The freshly painted larger bedroom was just totally empty. The bath is (almost) done and it looks livable - still has NO DOOR. :hysterical: A new storm door installed, new locksets on the interior doors, all the closet bi-fold doors, and the majority of the wood trim still needs to be done. I need to buy 17 more 10 foot pieces of door and window trim. And order the 8 sets of bi-fold doors for the closets (and stain them, too).

So, NO new pictures, but I will get some up on the web site later next week.


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## pjrose (Aug 18, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> . . .
> 
> Called the PA State Police trooper - who had another 2 kids who admitted to being there, but didn't do any damage. The kid count is up to 6 now, but who was doing the damage count is 0 - ZERO. Yes, they saw other persons there and doing damage, but they didn't know their names - retarded Honor Roll students? 5.5 months since the girls were seen leaving the house.
> 
> ...



The "don't rat out other kids" code is VERY strong.  

Get that bathroom door, or at least hang a curtain!


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## jerseygirl (Aug 18, 2012)

Have you thought about asking the local paper or TV news station to do a human interest/crime piece?  Perhaps it would bring unwanted attention to your home, so I'm just thinking out loud here.  But, it could bring in tips and put pressure on law enforcement to solve the case.  I'm sure the community would be appalled at the damage.  Maybe Crimestoppers could even be persuaded to offer a reward.  If nothing else, it could bring shame to the offenders (and they deserve a lot more than shame).


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 18, 2012)

This is still an active crime investigation and some of these perps might be tried adults. Tainting the jury pool might not be a good idea as in most areas locals don't like vacation house owners - who are wealthy enough to own a house in their neighbor for weekends and who are totally redoing the place on the backs of these nice young kids. 

After all, Viv's insurance company has all that money and this will help more of the locals get work. Why should the kids have to repay anyone or the insurance company - it was just a childish prank and harmless fun? And they will promise to never do it again.:rofl: 

Remember, there are parts of the US where pot growing is called "farming" and standing on a street cornor waiting for a car honk is called "free enterprise". Us Tuggers are just shocked that these kids have the support of their parents - where do you think these kids picked up the attitude that this house was theirs to be trashed? It went on for several months - gossip had to been down to the kindergarden room by then. Teenagers usually can't stop running their mouths, text messaging and photgraphing/video recording themselves. No little brat sibling ratted out anyone? Not one parent caught their teenager in a "where where you" lied? No one missed curfew or came home messed up or hit a tree --- wait, they had a house to sleep it off in? What about cars parked along the road or in parent's driveways, but no driver around? Most of us KNOW actually whose car belongs on down our streets and when they will most likely disappear. These kids KNEW the one neighbor got chemo every 3rd week and the other neighbor NEVER came home til 5:30PM --- that is how they got caught. And that one neighbor knew that the owner (Viv) was not a big party animal with all the outdoor lights on and be gone by 6AM on a Sunday morning. Neighborhoods have patterns within them. It was the 2 separate neighbors who were friendly, one with no kids and older, one with a 3 yo kid, who together figured out and tooked the time to walk around Viv's house. Neither was plugged into the teenager scene and I bet both have been approached and asked "how did the cops get wind of this?" Do you think they want anyone to know it was them?


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## VivianLynne (Aug 23, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> NEW PHOTOS!!!! These are new pictures ....  Aug 23 uploads....
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/7679619016/in/photostream/



*New Photos!!!! Look under the "rebuilt rooms" section*.  These are new pictures of the kitchen with the cermanic 2 burner countertop cooktop with the Viking microwave, convention oven and rangehood combo above it. Yes, the countertop is granite --- checkout the outside cornor edge by the sink.

The bathroom mirrors, new wall lighting, 8 inch on center faucets with the new vanity top.

Both of these rooms are close to being finished  .Currently, use-able to a large extent.


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## VivianLynne (Aug 23, 2012)

pjrose said:


> ...Get that bathroom door, or at least hang a curtain!



Monday is the start of another work week for my contractor. I have 2 more doors to stain and poly-ur-thane .... #1 task. I am planning to get up there on Friday early evening to stain the doors, then finish the last of the door trim (another 18 pieces each 10 ft long), apply 2nd coat of poly-ur-thane to the pile I did last Sunday & Monday, etc .... 

The refrigerator has alcohol, food, water plus a sleep-able floor mattress and a working bathroom. Monday night I have reservations at Wyndham Shawnee for us for the next 4 nights.


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## jerseygirl (Aug 23, 2012)

Love the kitchen!  Looking great!


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## VivianLynne (Aug 23, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> This is still an active crime investigation and some of these perps might be tried adults. ....
> 
> After all, Viv's insurance company has all that money and this will help more of the locals get work. Why should the kids have to repay anyone or the insurance company - it was just a childish prank and harmless fun? And they will promise to never do it again.:rofl:
> 
> ... Neither was plugged into the teenager scene and I bet both have been approached and asked "how did the cops get wind of this?" Do you think they want anyone to know it was them?



Linda points are ALL VALID. I have gotten adults whose direct verbal comments have included "your insurance is paying for the repairs - why go after the kids?", "there is nothing for the kids to do around here", "happens all the time", "didn't your alarm go off", "why did the kids pick on you?", and my most favorite, "Well, it helps all the local businesses around here".  I have heard that comment several times and it really pisses me off.

The TIME and energy I have spent on this is months and months of my life. I have lost real cash income; spent beaucoup dollars on gas, tolls, living expenses; had sleepless nights; felt totally dumped on. Next week will be the 6 month mark that I found out from the State Trooper as to there being a problem at the house.


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## jerseygirl (Aug 23, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> Linda points are ALL VALID. I have gotten adults whose direct verbal comments have included "your insurance is paying for the repairs - why go after the kids?", "there is nothing for the kids to do around here", "happens all the time", "didn't your alarm go off", "why did the kids pick on you?", and my most favorite, "Well, it helps all the local businesses around here".  I have heard that comment several times and it really pisses me off.
> 
> The TIME and energy I have spent on this is months and months of my life. I have lost real cash income; spent beaucoup dollars on gas, tolls, living expenses; had sleepless nights; felt totally dumped on. Next week will be the 6 month mark that I found out from the State Trooper as to there being a problem at the house.



That's terrible.


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## VivianLynne (Aug 23, 2012)

Jerseygirl,
TUG and Tuggers have been great for both support and as a sounding board. Thanks to all who have followed this thread and have posted encouraging words, suggestions and their support.

Liked and appreciated your comment on the kitchen's appearance.  

The insurance adjuster is visiting next week for an inspection as I am doing this with an independant contractor. She was impressed several months ago -wait til she sees these finishes ...

And wait til the protective paper comes off the dark stained 3/4" oak flooring thru out the house. :whoopie:


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## Passepartout (Aug 23, 2012)

Looks REALLY nice, Viv! You'll be enjoying a glass (or 2) of wine on that deck before you know it. Now.....about that bathroom door......


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## jerseygirl (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm just so sad/shocked that this happened.  I think we should turn you into the school bus lady who got $750K (???) in donations!  I want those kids punished.  I grew up in town with nothing for teenagers to do.  We did some crazy things to amuse ourselves (have you ever had a rolling party in the back of a U- Haul?   ).   But, we never destroyed other people's property.

And, I'm soooooo impressed with the work you're doing yourself (and with your wonderful helper).  If this happened to me, I think I'd still be crying.  I could never do what you've done.  

I love when I see an update - please know I'm cheering for you.


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## pjrose (Aug 23, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> I'm just so sad/shocked that this happened.  I think we should turn you into the school bus lady who got $750K (???) in donations!  I want those kids punished.  I grew up in town with nothing for teenagers to do.  We did some crazy things to amuse ourselves (have you ever had a rolling party in the back of a U- Haul?   ).   But, we never destroyed other people's property.
> 
> And, I'm soooooo impressed with the work you're doing yourself (and with your wonderful helper).  If this happened to me, I think I'd still be crying.  I could never do what you've done.
> 
> I love when I see an update - please know I'm cheering for you.



Many Thumbs Up, JerseyGirl.  When I see an update on this thread I click into it first.  

Tonight I showed DD the before and after pictures - she was horrified at the deliberate destruction.  DD has not been the easiest child.  Years ago she broke things in anger several times - and had consequences, such as cleaning up, paying back, apology note.....and in the case of driving my car without a license and wrecking it, probation, fine, and community service.  

She said if someone did that to her house she would be angry and stressed, saw the damage to your house as an invasion of privacy, and said there definitely need to be consequences.  She was very impressed at your work and your ability to keep on going. It was good for her to see the pictures and hear about some of the details.

Keep those updates coming, please


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## VivianLynne (Aug 25, 2012)

Leaving for the Poconos in an hour or so for 6 nites. I have to finish staining the interior "hung" doors and door trim. And I have to finish poly-ur-phening those items and the floor trim. The next trip for the contractor after this week won't be til October as his only child, a daughter, is getting married in Ft Myers, Fl in mid-Sept. He is soooo freaking nervous, you would think he was the bride. :ignore: 

The plan (his plan) is to finish all of the interior. I don't have the closet bi-fold doors - and he will be totally unhappy about that. And there is a 4 week wait for those special order items.

Lowes has a promotion going on for rebates on special orders for windows and doors. Yesterday, I got a letter from Lowes and went - great! my $400 rebate. No, it was your rebate is NOT qualified. 30 minutes on the phone to a supervisor and the problem was, they could NOT read the store code on their original rebate receipt. Brought over $3000 of stuff and they are playing games. And the store location was not just the code, but also the city name and state printed on the receipt. After the I did the talk of "my raving lunatic dance from the Millwork desk to the body of the store 2nd incharge manager (Ian), I will collect a whole lot more than the $400 rebate" spiel, I was promised it in 5 days. Still going to do the dance at the Mt Poconos store - and this is why I hate mail in rebates. Will get another rebate of $400 for the bifold doors and a new storm door. But am ordering those from the local Lowes here. 

Will be doing the splashback for the kitchen countertop and install the kitchen window this week. I also have to stain ALL the windows after they get trimmed out (packed out to meet the wall trim). Need to install cabinet and drawer pulls. Okay, the contractor will do the splashback, etc. He is ONLY not doing staining and poly-ur-phening of ANYTHING.

Have the door knobs for the interior doors. Have 1 towel rack - need another and the tissue holder. Need the soap and/or toothbrush holders/shelf under the 2 mirrors in the bath also.

So much fun. And then I can start doing paperwork for the insurance company.


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## amycurl (Aug 25, 2012)

> And then I can start doing paperwork for the insurance company.



And then the real work begins.  

You have been amazing through this whole process. And the cabin is really starting to look beautiful! (When it's all done, you should think about allowing fellow TUGgers to rent it out....)


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## pjrose (Aug 25, 2012)

amycurl said:


> And then the real work begins.
> 
> You have been amazing through this whole process. And the cabin is really starting to look beautiful! (When it's all done, you should think about allowing fellow TUGgers to rent it out....)



Me first please!


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## VivianLynne (Aug 31, 2012)

*Bathroom door installed with a lockset.*

Just got back from my 6 work day trip. Lots of checks added to the done column. 

All the trim (floor and door) has been installed. We had one 3 inch piece of floor trim leftover and patched inside the closet door trim in 3 places. I finished putting the 2nd coat of poly on the last of the door trim at 4AM (went to sleep around 8PM after the finishing the 1st coat) in the dark on the deck and realize it might start raining - so I dragged it inside to dry. Then it started raining - hard. I went back to the floor mattress to get some sleep before the contractor arrived on Monday AM.

Glass tile backsplash was finally discovered and mostly stuck onto the wall above the countertop and under the cabinets (which is good as the mastic will have lots of time to dry). "Discovered" is the correct term as I had brought at least 15 sample tiles in the past 2 months which did NOT meet the "looks good" standard. This one was greeted with "that looks great". Of course, I had to make a 3rd trip to Lowes on the way home - as we were "1" (one) sheet short. I brought several extras again. On the 2nd trip, I had brought 4 extra sheets.  

All 4 interior doors installed - including the bathroom door.  

Started staining the wood windows frames and sashes. Had to wait for the Pella factory rep to bring a replacement for the damaged one. Takes more time and attention to detail than I like - have to wear my reading glasses and have a good light. Brought, painted and installed the exterior brick molding which covers the flanges on the exterior of the house. All I need to finish the exterior damage now is the NEW storm door on the entry door in the LR.

Cleaned the patio doors glass along with the windows above. With everything else so fresh and clean, it was very noticable that they had a big case of filth and grunge.

Installed the clothes rods and shelves in both clothes closets. Installed a shelf in the bathroom linen closet and was "told" to find a set of free standing shelves. Guess I will need to find a "stud" finder - to figure out if I have other options. 

Insurance adjuster did NOT come over due to 3 new claims she was assigned this week. Did talked to her briefly before we left at noon.

*Next trip is Oct 8 for the contractor.* I will have to go up for several things over the next 6 weeks. 
Continue getting bids for an alarm system - got 2 bids last week ($650 and $385). 
Continue the window/sash staining and poly-ur-phane.
Get the 8 sets of bi-fold doors up to the house, stained and poly'ed. Ordered to match the interior doors. Ordered them on Sunday with a 4 week delivery. 
Get the stormed door up there. It is ordered. with the bi-fold doors.
Get several estimates for the new insulation needed under the floor (in the crawl space).

Yes, I slept 2 nights on the floor at the house - had a window A/C unit and about 5 inches of foam/sleeping bad/comfortor with 2 blankets and 2 pillows. Plus, when you are tired, you can sleep anywheres. The last 4 nights, we had another Dupey 2bdr TS unit at Wyndham Shawnee. The next door neighbor told me that on Sunday night, a 300 lb Black Bear cleaned out the trash boxes. This older couple had brought their 2 fixed weeks 35 years ago and knew to get as far away from the bear - other TS guests with their cameras were taking pictures within 20 feet of this big bear. The entire area was just covered with trash thrown about. My contractor was just so disappointed - he has never seen a black bear in the wild. 

The king size Shawnee bed was a bit better for sleeping, I believe.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 1, 2012)

Seems like progress continues.

Now that you have a bathroom door, when are you buying a bed and a sofa for the place?


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## VivianLynne (Sep 4, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> ....Now that you have a bathroom door, when are you buying a bed and a sofa for the place?



So funny. I have to write up a detail list for the insurance company of all the damaged and missing stuff (personal property) from the house. The insurance company hands that over to an outside firm which writes up an evaluation of its worth. Everything in the cabinets, on the pictures on the walls, window coverings, furniture, TVs: everything that was NOT part of the physical house when the builder built it. The stove and refrigerator are considered appliances verses being cabinets. The hot water heater is part of the house. Window air conditioners are personal property and go on the new list.

*Everyone should ONCE a year* take a digital camera and photograph every room, closet, cabinet, drawer in their house incase a fire or evil teenage vandals strike. As a vacation house, I did not have expensive toys or years of personal items and nicknacks. In other words, the good stuff was not there. And this Poconos house was small.

If this had happened at my real home, I would be in "deep do-do".


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## VivianLynne (Oct 12, 2012)

Been 38 days since I last posted here. What has been happening?

I got the 8 sets or 16 individual bi-fold doors. Front and back, with 3 panels on each side. 32 sides to stain and then 64 (2 coats each side) to poly-ur-thane.  I am 1/2 done the poly-ur-thaning party. I have found the door and floor trim to be much, much easier. And faster. I have the wood windows in various states of being done also. But I refuse to take windows out of their frames when it is below 50 outside.

I have spent the past 6 nights sleeping on the floor at the house. 2nd night had some critter landing on the roof around 1AM. Big thunk. Someone suggested it might have been a turkey. A turkey the sounded like the size of a Jersey Devil!

My contractor survived his daughter's (and only child's) wedding. But his wife had minor surgery early this week and he missed our Oct 8th week. Which is why I was there all last week doing doors - plus that is MY JOB as he only likes painted woodwork. 

After my "door" project, I will remove all the protective paper and cardboard from the hardwood floors. Then I will post NEW PICTUREs. 

My insurance adjuster sent me the letter saying "call for final inspection and to turn in receipts" and "supply us with list of personal property damaged or missing". I knew this day would arrive. Good thing I have a new toner cartridge for my copier - receipts by the thousands.:rofl:

PS As I was staining doors, the 10 foot A-ladder "fell" into the DR wall. A little damaged to the sheetrock - have NOT confessed that yet. 8" long and 1.25" wide and 1" deep. Think I will go look for my sheetrock blade in the garage here at home. :ignore:


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## Htoo0 (Oct 12, 2012)

A whole new meaning to a 'working vacation'. So have the legal issues been settled? I would think your insurance company would want to be compensated.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 15, 2012)

Htoo0 said:


> A whole new meaning to a 'working vacation'. So have the legal issues been settled? I would think your insurance company would want to be compensated.



Called my adjuster late this afternoon. No one has been arrested or charged. She had heard NOTHING for months from the trooper. Seems I had talked to him last. Asked if the insurance company would consider posting a REWARD and it appears that my policy does not - mostly commerical policies offer that option. She is going to try and reach our trooper --- else the teenage vandals and their lawyers win!

My final walk thru at the property with her does NOT have to be totally done. Almost counts and if the final material is there, that is what mostly matters. Closet bi-fold doors there and mostly stained & poly'ed count. Yippee --- looks like I can schedule that next week as real work home is getting CRAZY NUTS. Yes, I do have a job - strange as that may seem.

Did I mention she wants my receipts? Crazy adjustor - can't she just see I spent money and need MORE $$$? Me and my copier will become BFFs for a good week on that one!

I reviewed my Personal Property sheet which I had started months ago. Seems I had done a lengthy list then and just need to refine it a bit before sending it off to the insurance company. 

I patched my new sheetrock hole in the dining room. Now I need to get my painting roller & pan to repaint the wall. Touch up on the paint did NOT work out real well - repainting the wall will hide my faux pas with the ladder.

Need to find the alarm company quotes and need to finish getting the crawl space insulated -- it was 28 degrees on morning while last up there.

By the way, the colors had changed on the trees. The leaves are falling fast. And when I started this adventure, the ground was frozen and the ski slopes were in full operation. I hope to get furniture BEFORE ski season opens - 6 week lead time for the sofa set I was looking at on Saturday.


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## SOS8260456 (Oct 15, 2012)

Viv,
Can they ever compensate YOU for all the personal work you did on your home?  I think no matter what they pay, this insurance company is getting off quite easy.

As for the guilty parties, I bet the insurance party will turn the heat up once they have to cut that check.

You put a lot of hard work in and you have a place you can be proud of.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 15, 2012)

SOS8260456 said:


> Viv,
> Can they ever compensate YOU for all the personal work you did on your home?  I think no matter what they pay, this insurance company is getting off quite easy.
> 
> ...You put a lot of hard work in and you have a place you can be proud of.



Can't cut me a check. 

But the real killer is a "contractor" would get 20% PLUS the cost of material and labor as "Profit and Over-run" factor on his estimates in addition to going back for "adjustor" adjustments. So a $30,000 "get started" check would also have included a $6,000 Cost Plus for $36,000. And you wonder why contractors flock to fire jobs? Remember, they can also hit the homeowner up for "your insurance company isn't paying for _that_, but we can write up a CASH ADD-ON modification to your repairs".

I did not want to be fighting a losing war with a local contractor.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 15, 2012)

*More NEW PHOTOS!*

I went furniture shopping on Saturday - store where my sister's MIL's 1st cousin's family owns the business. They know my sister and offered me the family discount.

The sofa is very comfortable to sit on, the otterman is "recycled leather", and there would be a loveseat added to the grouping. 6 weeks or I can take these pieces with the loveseat being delivered later.

But for all the bathroom door lovers - it is the first door on the right in the hallway.  Opposite it is the closet with the washer/dryer stack unit & the hot water heater. Those bi-fold doors are propped in the living room in front of one of the patio doors. Not totalled stained and poly-ur-phaned yet.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 15, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> PHOTOS!!!! 26 of them - both before and after. Be sure to go to Page 2 - rebuilt rooms.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/7679619016/in/photostream/



Here is the new photo link .... And PLEASE go to the sub-group "REBUILT ROOM" to see the living room furniture I really like.


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## pjrose (Oct 16, 2012)

Beautiful work.  I love the couch etc.

Am I interpreting the posts above right...you are NOT being compensated for your many hours of labor???


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## MuranoJo (Oct 16, 2012)

Great progress and I like the new furniture--especially that nice large ottoman.  

It is still unbelievable that those who did this will walk away unscathed.  Meanwhile, it's obvious you have suffered great financial and personal sacrifice for their destructive behavior.  And to not get paid for your time...

Well, it's going to be beautiful when all is done.


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## jerseygirl (Oct 16, 2012)

Looks great.  I love the doors ... and the furniture.

Call me vindictive, but I want these kids punished.


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## pgnewarkboy (Oct 16, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> Looks great.  I love the doors ... and the furniture.
> 
> Call me vindictive, but I want these kids punished.



The desire to punish these kids has very little to do with the loss of property. It has to do with the VIOLATION of physical personalprivacy.  A sense of personal violation that comes when someone does something destructive to your things.  Once again, PERSONAL violation.  Although the insurance can pay or replace the damaged items the insurance cannot pay for or replace the sense that your PERSON has been violated, injured.  This kind of act of vandalism often creates a sense of fear for safety of the person.  Someone has entered your private personal space and done something you didn't want them to do. That is the justifiable crux of the desire for revenge - not so much the loss of property.  The loss of control over your personal space, and by extension your person.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 16, 2012)

muranojo said:


> Great progress and I like the new furniture--especially that nice large ottoman.
> 
> It is still unbelievable that those who did this will walk away unscathed.  Meanwhile, it's obvious you have suffered great financial and personal sacrifice for their destructive behavior.  And to not get paid for your time...
> 
> Well, it's going to be beautiful when all is done.



The ottoman is "recycled" leather. I thought all leather was recycled right off the poor steer who used to use it as a coat.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 16, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Beautiful work.  I love the couch etc.
> 
> Am I interpreting the posts above right...you are NOT being compensated for your many hours of labor???



Not a penny. Unless you have done major work at your house, you can't understand the hassle a money-hungry clown/contractor can cause you. And to be 125 miles from the job site? Believe me,* this is work - but the stress is much lower.* No modifications to the contract, no where is the contractor this AM, what is "THAT?", that is NOT what I picked out, etc.

Yes, the job might have been done faster - but I would have had to be there 100% of the time and just been pissed off 75% of the time. 

And I truly like the work that is getting done. And it is getting done LIKE I want it. The guy doing the work has been working for me for years. And he likes his work and going to work. Think of it like a 8 month long weekend project at your house - only I either have gone back to Shawnee to sleep or back home for 2 weeks before coming back up for a week of hard work.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 16, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> Looks great.  I love the doors ... and the furniture.
> 
> Call me vindictive, but I want these kids punished.



Back up in Post 34 (where the punishment thread was merged into this original thread), there was a series of various opinions on that subject.


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## pjrose (Oct 16, 2012)

pjrose said:


> . . .  Years ago [DD] broke things in anger several times - and had consequences, such as cleaning up, paying back, apology note.....and in the case of driving my car without a license and wrecking it, probation, fine, and community service.
> 
> She said if someone did that to her house she would be angry and stressed, saw the damage to your house as an invasion of privacy, and said there definitely need to be consequences.  . . .





muranojo said:


> . . .
> 
> It is still unbelievable that those who did this will walk away unscathed.  Meanwhile, it's obvious you have suffered great financial and personal sacrifice for their destructive behavior.  . . . .





jerseygirl said:


> . . .
> Call me vindictive, but I want these kids punished.



I don't think that's vindictive at all; those who break laws need consequences for many reasons, including learning that lawbreaking is serious and showing others that there are consequences to lawbreaking.



pgnewarkboy said:


> The desire to punish these kids has very little to do with the loss of property. It has to do with the VIOLATION of physical personal privacy.  A sense of personal violation that comes when someone does something destructive to your things.  Once again, PERSONAL violation.  Although the insurance can pay or replace the damaged items the insurance cannot pay for or replace the sense that your PERSON has been violated, injured.  This kind of act of vandalism often creates a sense of fear for safety of the person.  Someone has entered your private personal space and done something you didn't want them to do. That is the justifiable crux of the desire for revenge - not so much the loss of property.  The loss of control over your personal space, and by extension your person.



It's more than that, pgnewarkboy; they also broke laws, and may learn that they can get away with it.

DD accidentally set fire to her ex-BFs kitchen, and the likelihood is that the apartment complex's insurance company will seek restitution.  I can't imagine that in this case the insurance company won't, but I'm sure Viv will keep us updated.




vacationhopeful said:


> Back up in Post 34 (where the punishment thread was merged into this original thread), there was a series of various opinions on that subject.



Opinions on the punishment were varied, but I don't recall anybody thinking they should just waltz off with no consequences at all.


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## Passepartout (Oct 16, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Opinions on the punishment were varied, but I don't recall anybody thinking they should just waltz off with no consequences at all.



Oh, I'd surmise that the kids' parents would prefer that the little snots waltz off unpunished, because they (the parents) would then get off scot free. They just didn't post as much here.

Jim


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## Zac495 (Oct 16, 2012)

I love what you've done!


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## pjrose (Oct 16, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Oh, I'd surmise that the kids' parents would prefer that the little snots waltz off unpunished, because they (the parents) would then get off scot free. They just didn't post as much here.
> 
> Jim



Right as usual, Jim....though if DD were one of the culprits, I'd want her to have a lot of community service and probation and restitution, recognizing that the latter would take a long time.  


Viv's, I do admire your positivity about this.  You've done work many of us wouldn't consider, done a heck of a super job, and are focusing on your beautiful house.  That's really a great attitude!


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## am1 (Oct 16, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Right as usual, Jim....though if DD were one of the culprits, I'd want her to have a lot of community service and probation and restitution, recognizing that the latter would take a long time.



Jail time?  Go after the parents for damages?


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## pjrose (Oct 17, 2012)

am1 said:


> Jail time?  Go after the parents for damages?



Please see the previous posts.....I was responding to Jim's comment that their parents probably didn't want them to have consequences, and saying that if it were my daughter I'd want consequences.  I wouldn't vote for jail time for my daughter, not that I'd have a vote.  And yes, I think there should be restitution.


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## grupp (Oct 17, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> Can't cut me a check.
> 
> But the real killer is a "contractor" would get 20% PLUS the cost of material and labor as "Profit and Over-run" factor on his estimates in addition to going back for "adjustor" adjustments. So a $30,000 "get started" check would also have included a $6,000 Cost Plus for $36,000. And you wonder why contractors flock to fire jobs? Remember, they can also hit the homeowner up for "your insurance company isn't paying for _that_, but we can write up a CASH ADD-ON modification to your repairs".
> 
> I did not want to be fighting a losing war with a local contractor.



Vivan
The General Contractors Overhead and Profit is a misunderstood concept and one that is sometimes abused by insurance companies. I have been in insurance claims for 25 years and can tell you, in my opinion, you are entitled to the O&P depiste the fact you did the work yourself. I would definately pay it if it came accross my desk.

But you don't know me and and am sure your adjsuster won't pay you just because I say so. So maybe he should read Mee vs Safeco and see what the PA Superior Court had to say about that issue. According to this case, if it can established that the use of a Genral Contractor would be reasonably likely, you are entitled to the O&P even if you act as own general contractor and do the work youself. With the amount of damage sustained, I don't believe there is any doubt the O&P should be paid to you. 

If they do not pay you the O&P you should contact the Department of Insurance in PA. I guess another option would be file in small claims court, but I really don't know PA law regarding what can be submitted there. 

Let me know if any questions and good luck. 

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-superior-court/1164464.html


Gary


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## jerseygirl (Oct 17, 2012)

Go Gary!  I sure hope she gets it!!


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## VivianLynne (Oct 20, 2012)

grupp said:


> Vivan
> The General Contractors Overhead and Profit is a misunderstood concept and one that is sometimes abused by insurance companies. I have been in insurance claims for 25 years and can tell you, in my opinion, you are entitled to the O&P depiste the fact you did the work yourself. I would definately pay it if it came accross my desk.
> 
> But you don't know me and and am sure your adjsuster won't pay you just because I say so. So maybe he should read Mee vs Safeco and see what the PA Superior Court had to say about that issue. According to this case, if it can established that the use of a Genral Contractor would be reasonably likely, you are entitled to the O&P even if you act as own general contractor and do the work youself. With the amount of damage sustained, I don't believe there is any doubt the O&P should be paid to you.
> ...



Gary,
I could kiss you! 

I truly hope that does play out per your case law reference. I know they won't "give" it to me, but this has been considerable time and effort on my part. Additionally, I have expenses with interest costs and gasoline to pickup/shop for material (true overhead costs). There is never a "PROFIT" for a homeowner to go thru this - the reward will be a restored property. And in my case, it will be somewhat updated in marginal areas like color of the walls, new flooring, and Energy Star windows with tint (the only way those wood Pella windows are sold).

Thank you for that reference. Hope helps!


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## grupp (Oct 22, 2012)

Vivian

The expenses you list are exactly why you should receive the O&P as these are expense related to the covered repairs. 

Not sure where you are in the oveall process, but an approach I might try would be to mail or email a request for the O&P to your adjuster, including a copy (or link if emailed) to Mee vs Safeco. I would also ask that if they deny coverage for those expenses that they provide a written explaination as to the basis for denial and policy provisions that support their position. 

In an unrelated note, I am not very familiar with PA, but my daugher is a freshman at Lafayette in Easton. So, have  been out there a couple of times (will be there this weekend for Family Weekend). She likes to ski and just wondering if you had any recommendations for places to ski in that area. 

Gary


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## VivianLynne (Oct 22, 2012)

grupp said:


> Vivian
> 
> ...In an unrelated note, I am not very familiar with PA, but my daugher is a freshman at Lafayette in Easton. So, have  been out there a couple of times (will be there this weekend for Family Weekend). She likes to ski and just wondering if you had any recommendations for places to ski in that area.
> 
> Gary


Blue Mountain is the closest hill. Then most likely in desceding order is Camelback, Shawnee, Big Boulder, Jack Frost and the Elk Mountain. This is NOT Vermont or Western US skiing. Most have night skiing and student tickets or days along with annual passes.

As for recommendations ... skiied Blue once when it first opened, Camelback alot (closest to my house - around 800 vertical years ago), BB had about 450 feet on baby hills, Jack Frost was longer with a northern exposeure (BB/JF are the same management/owners), and Elk is about 1,000 vertical with northern exposure. It has been years since I skiied - some many be closed or renovated into bigger/better. Shawnee - never skiied there.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 26, 2012)

Have the insurance adjustor coming out Monday Oct 29 at 12:30PM for a walk thru. While the bifold doors are NOT installed, they are there and stained & poly'ed - almost everything else is done. I think she has to get it "like done" on the work as Nov 3 would be the 8th month anniversity of the claim.

Have to work on the personal property list this weekend --- while waiting for Sandy's path to be firmed up on the forecast.


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## VivianLynne (Nov 9, 2012)

My insurance adjuster and I did NOT met on Oct 29 --- due to the impending storm "Sandy".  It was safe for us to meet, but not for my 125 mile trip back home.

Just got home from the first work week for my contractor there since August 25th. We got most of the closet bi-fold doors hung. Patched the mortar on the fireplace (and built a couple of fires), hung the last kitchen cabinet and the major job, to install NEW insulation in the crawl space and wrap the plumbing pipes in hat tape.

The broken pipe under the kitchen sink rang until the well pump quit and all that water ran onto the floor, thru the floor and into the insulation under the floor in the crawl space. It was removed when we had the dumpster back in April (at the start of working).

Updated the pictures on "Flickr" with the intalled doors on the laundry closet in the hall, both bedroom closet doors & the wood floor, and the new oriental rugs on the hardwood floors in the LR and DR.


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## VivianLynne (Nov 9, 2012)

VivianLynne said:


> PHOTOS!!!!
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/7679619016/in/photostream/



New photos from today Nov 9 ....

Interior closet doors installed in both BDrs and laundry closet on hallway, oriental rugs on the hardwood floors in LR and DR.

New and stained Kitchen window over the sink.


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## VivianLynne (Dec 17, 2012)

*The HOUSE IS REPAIRED - IT PASSED!*

Here it is the week before Christmas and the insurance adjuster "passed" the house last Tuesday. It is DONE in her eyes. 

And I handed in the personal property worksheets - then I started having dreams of all the stuff I had forgotten to put on the personal property sheets. :hysterical:

So, my contractor and I enjoyed another round of drinks that night in front of the lit fireplace sitting on the green plastic deck chairs with the overturned 5 gallon bucket as a table for our glasses. And as that is ALL the furniture up there - you need a drink or 3 to fall asleep in your sleeping bags on the floor.

Oh, and did I mention, the Walmart plastic cheapo table clothes are the windows "drapes". Used the old staple gun to hang them from the top of the window and door moldings.

And I forgot my camera --- dang! I wanted to post pictures as we hauled all the construction debris and equipment back home with us.


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## jerseygirl (Dec 17, 2012)

Whoa - I missed the last update.  It looks great!!


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## MuranoJo (Dec 18, 2012)

Congrats, Viv!  Just in time for the holidays.


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## VivianLynne (Mar 29, 2013)

Got a letter from the insurance adjuster today! I sent off my receipt copies for the repairs to the house on March 1st with proof of mailing. It was thick. Her letter was it will take time to review against the estimates - good luck, is what I thought.

3 weeks ago I brought 2 sets of queen size mattresses and box springs - Paula Deen Serta's foam, 10 year (full) warrenty. Mattresses now at my real house in the garage until I take them to the Poconos house over Easter weekend. Then I will finally have a BED to sleep on verses the floor. I was up to the house about 5 weeks ago - to both check on it and to drag some kitchen stuff up there. With my dark kitchen decor - blank countertops and backsplash, I decide the accent color should be "red". 

Next will be a sofa. Then I can move the green plastic patio chairs to sit arouond the green plastic patio table ...


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## VivianLynne (Apr 28, 2013)

Okay, the 2 mattresses (but not the box springs) are at the house (sitting in the area between the living room and dining area). I went up with one of my friends who took my picture on the porch at Shawnee. Figured if they were going to help me, I should not expect them to sleep in the floor. Got another rug for the larger BDR -- need another set of hands to get the box springs up there, set up the bed frames, and set the mattresses. 

Late March, I was up there for a night or two to put together some cubes for the LR wall and to organize stuff. Yes, I stayed at the house and slept on the sleeping bags.

My mattress helper email me the personal photo from the screen in Shawnee porch.

So new pictures on Flicka under "rebuilt rooms".


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## VivianLynne (Apr 28, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> ...http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/7679619016/in/photostream/



Here is the Flicka link ... under rebuilt rooms - 4 new photos.


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## VivianLynne (Apr 28, 2013)

As I was up there and just doing some housekeeping and straightening out, I call my PA State Trooper (who was in the barracks) and called the Monroe County Victim Advocate.

Trooper is still doing interviews and following up leads as time allows due to more serious cases. Did ask him what was the Statue of Limitations - basicly it is 2 years unless the identities are determined from fingerprints which might be added to the system YEARS later -- then that limitation is from the date of the fingerprint match. But if could be 5 years, if a handle as a Major Crime (maybe).

So, I next called the Victim Advocate's Office. She called me back inside of 30 minutes and did the, "who are you?" and "I don't have any record of YOU or any crime". And that is because, no one has been arrested. She was going to call the trooper and get back to me. According to her, she does not handle VICTIMS until someone is arrested ... that prove to me it was a government job.


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## pjrose (Apr 29, 2013)

Wow, real beds - what a concept!  Thanks for the photo link, I always like looking at your pics (well, I don't like looking at the before....but the afters are wonderful)  

And as to the Victim Advocate.....grrrr, just grrrrr.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 22, 2013)

grupp said:


> Vivan
> The General Contractors Overhead and Profit is a misunderstood concept and one that is sometimes abused by insurance companies. I have been in insurance claims for 25 years and can tell you, in my opinion, you are entitled to the O&P depiste the fact you did the work yourself. I would definately pay it if it came accross my desk.
> 
> ....Gary



Hi Gary,
Got the O&P but they seem to have forgotten the add-on overruns -- like the egress windows in the bedrooms, insulation in the crawl space and cost of the real wood doors over 1/8 inch over cardboard doors. I haven't cashed the final check yet - think I will have to go "tilt some windmills".


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## VivianLynne (Sep 1, 2013)

I was up there last weekend. Took dishes up as I had gotten a (used) buffet/china hutch several weeks ago - and was letting it air out. I found a great table to match the cabinet this week and 2 matching chairs. I had brought 8 other wood chairs - gives me a chair for each bedroom and some extras from the hutch guy ($100 more).

The hutch was $100 plus $10 delivery. Will post the pictures on Flicka. Table & 2 chairs FREE, but I still have to drag them up there. Needs a little "touch up" on the table top, but it is real sturdy. Table in the picture is NOT the one I am going to use.

While I was up there, I stopped at a neighbor's yard sale. They had some stories to tell about the neighborhood teens and suggested who (2 of the boys (brothers)) had several visits by the state police on the issue. Live in a very big and nice home - and that was not there first visits from the police. They have regular visits from the troopers (every time something happens in the area).

3 new photos ... Flicka http://www.flickr.com/photos/83640272@N02/9645902964/in/photostream/


I figured out HOW to get the Flicka link into the thread!!!!  Finally! Enjoy the NEW 3 pictures!


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## Htoo0 (Sep 1, 2013)

Looking good. Sorry there's people with nothing better to do but cause so much trouble. Hopefully Karma catches up to them. (I know, I'm not a nice guy...)


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 1, 2013)

Vivian, 
Not to be finger pointing but you have had a kitchen countertop and sink installed for over a year (date stamped photos). And still no beds put together in the bedrooms? No pictures on the walls? Drapes? No LR furniture?

But NO HOUSEWARMING PARTY FOR YOUR TUG SUPPORTERS! That might be the most unforgivable issue. 

PS In reading some of the older posts, Do YOU have a door on the bathroom yet? That might be reason enough to stall setting up a date for a TUG support meeting....

Added: Yes, I know there is a bathroom door ... and after all this, you still seem to have a sense of humor (a bit darker perhaps).


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## pjrose (Sep 2, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> .............
> 
> While I was up there, I stopped at a neighbor's yard sale. They had some stories to tell about the neighborhood teens and suggested who (2 of the boys (brothers)) had several visits by the state police on the issue. Live in a very big and nice home - and that was not there first visits from the police. They have regular visits from the troopers (every time something happens in the area).
> 
> ...



The police visits don't seem to be resulting in any consequences.  I'm with HtooO, hoping for Karma to get the little punks.  

Thanks for the update and pics 

And yes, Linda, she does have a door....and was your pun intended LOL?


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## dmharris (Sep 2, 2013)

I just stumbled onto this thread and though I have stuff to do today, I couldn't stop reading this!  It reads like a novel.  Can't wait for the rest of the story.  Viv, so interesting, congratulations on the amazing job and I will pray that the felons with get their just reward.


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## VivianLynne (Oct 12, 2013)

dmharris said:


> I just stumbled onto this thread and though I have stuff to do today, I couldn't stop reading this!  It reads like a novel.  Can't wait for the rest of the story.  Viv, so interesting, congratulations on the amazing job and I will pray that the felons with get their just reward.



Diane, Thanks for the comments. Karma really does work.

PJ - the grandbaby - your project that has been ongoing like mine -- progress seems to be going well for you, too! 

Spent part of the day on eBAY -- another site I visit too often for shopping.


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## VivianLynne (Feb 27, 2014)

*Got a COURT DATE - March 18th*

So the 2 year statue of limitations has hit the 2 girls seem at my house. The state has them appearing in front of a magistrate - they entered a PLEAD of NOT GUILTY had been entered .....

The charge is a single count of "Defiant Trespassing of a Fenced or Enclosed Area". 

Emailed the Insurance Recovery Department .... who is sending damage info to recover money to the court.


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## VivianLynne (Feb 28, 2014)

Spent the last hour on the phone with a lawyer who was doing the internet/legal digest on the charges against the 2 girl defendants. His opinion is the defense lawyer is HOPE-ing I will not show up in court or if I do show up, I will reflect in my age, the 37+ years I have owned this second home.....

When I built this place, I was young. Not just younger, but young. Almost everyone in the neighborhood (about 30+ houses built over 79 lots within the first 7 years) were either retirement homes or vacation chalets. The vacation homes adults tended to be 40-45 years old. All the other vacation homes are gone except mine ---sold to small families or single persons who live there year round. I don't socialize with these families - where the weekenders of yesteryear always enjoyed activities together (and the association even sold off the outdoor pool and tennis court multiple years ago).

So the defense lawyers most likely believe I am (37 + (years owning house) 42 (average age of original 2nd home buyers) ==>) 79 years old. I am so going to love the this -- I am not near that age - I usually pass for 50-52 yo.

I wonder if I will have to produce photo id - might think I am the adult child of the real owner.


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## Htoo0 (Feb 28, 2014)

Let us know...


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 28, 2014)

Is this an adult court proceedings or the under 18 yo "kiddie" court?

Have any other persons been identified as possibly involved in this YET?

Is this the first you have you have learned their names?


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## pjrose (Feb 28, 2014)

VivianLynne said:


> So the 2 year statue of limitations has hit the 2 girls seem at my house. The state has them appearing in front of a magistrate - they entered a PLEAD of NOT GUILTY had been entered .....
> 
> *The charge is a single count of "Defiant Trespassing of a Fenced or Enclosed Area".
> *
> Emailed the Insurance Recovery Department .... who is sending damage info to recover money to the court.



Just trespassing?  How about vandalism? destruction of private property?


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## VivianLynne (Mar 16, 2014)

I leave later today to head up to the Poconos. I am again staying at Shawnee for the next 2 nights. Why staying at Shawnee? It is a 10AM court date on Tuesday, there is a SNOW EVENT happening tonight and Monday (how strange this year...:rofl and there is no way, I want those vandals (or their friends) to be able to slice the tires on my vehicle in the middle of the night before court. I want a good nights sleep without worry.

I did make a quick trip up Wednesday night to drop off more eBAY dishes - found a foot of snow in the driveway. Car is not 4 wheel drive - taking the pickup truck this afternoon. Slept at the house.

pjrose - I believe they can ONLY prove these 2 girls were inside the house that one afternoon after school. As that was about 3:30PM and they must have been at school all day, the amount of damage was too much for them to have done. They had to be charged with SOMETHING inside the 2 year of discovery of the crime - trespassing was mostly ALL they could get them on.

I was going thru photos I had taken - found the torn up "No Trespassing" sign remains in floor clutter. 

I have GREAT faith that MORE of the vandals will get charged in future years - as they get fingerprinted for jobs or arrested for more of their evil habits. Even these 2 girls, might get finger-printed if they are found guilty --- which could open UP more charges against them. 

No one (except their parents perhaps) believes these are sweet and not involved angels. 

And if they are found guilty or plead guilty, I wonder if I can hire a lawyer to sue them in civil court. Even if they file bankruptcy, the judgment will always be on their record (as well as the bankruptcy) which will keep it as public knowledge of their GREAT CHARACTER. And many good jobs and careers are today interested in good character (moral clauses).

Like to see these girls argue where over $50K in damages was a one time stupid thing when they apply for jobs THEY want. Or graduate schools. Maybe their good friends they don't want to rat out will send they a stipend each month for the next 40 years ....


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## VivianLynne (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes, the insurance company forwarded a report to the court for this case. The recovery unit in KY. I bet they too have lawyers who will work on getting money back for their company. :ignore:


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## VivianLynne (Mar 16, 2014)

If anyone is in the area, please EMAIL me for my phone number for a get together. I should be up there around before 2PM today and all day tomorrow. (not PM's my cell phone gets confused when I try to retrieve PMs).

Have nothing planned other than the Monday Night Free Wine (and singing) at Shawnee's Welcome Party. (Have spent too much time in the last 2 years at Shawnee - I know their schedule of events).

ADDED: Will check my email -- please leave a phone number in your email. Shawnee does NOT have free internet (at least the last time I stayed there).


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## pjrose (Mar 16, 2014)

So glad this is FINALLY going to court.  I'm not optimistic about restitution, if all they're charged with is trespassing......but I sure hope so.   My bet is some kind of ARD or perhaps unsupervised probation with court costs.  

I'd be tempted to park at the property in the HOPE that they slice your tires, and I'd have a video camera set up to record it.  I wouldn't want to sleep there though.

You mention hoping more get charged later....but what's the statute of limitations?


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## simpsontruckdriver (Mar 18, 2014)

She mentioned it previously, 2 years. So, the real perpetrators are getting off "scott-free", *IF* the girls did not do it.

TS


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## am1 (Mar 18, 2014)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> She mentioned it previously, 2 years. So, the real perpetrators are getting off "scott-free", *IF* the girls did not do it.
> 
> TS



Give the maximum to the girls and see if they will rollover.  If they were witnesses to who did it I would hold them in contempt until they provide names.  Or if they take the stand I would simply ask them who was there. 

Too bad the real court system is not that efficient.


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## pjrose (Mar 18, 2014)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> She mentioned it previously, 2 years. So, the real perpetrators are getting off "scott-free", *IF* the girls did not do it.
> 
> TS



Yes, 2 years is what I thought



am1 said:


> Give the maximum to the girls and see if they will rollover.  If they were witnesses to who did it I would hold them in contempt until they provide names.  Or if they take the stand I would simply ask them who was there.
> 
> Too bad the real court system is not that efficient.



Just let any of us the the judge


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## VivianLynne (Mar 18, 2014)

So I go to court today. Except, the court sent out a change of date from TODAY to TOMORROW on Friday. Get home and it is in the mail today. 

I did put in a REQUEST to change the date from Wed (tomorrow) as I have plane reservations to the West Coast - family thing and plan for 11 months ago.

Called be this afternoon and because 1 of the girls is in college, the judge postponed the date to JUNE 5th. :annoyed:

Did find out some interesting stuff:
The college girl was 18 yo at the time of her badness. The other girl was 16yo. They are being heard together. The state trooper presents the case for the state and questions the girls.

Did not learn where the college girl is attending school. Need to provide my receipts. Had NOT received the insurance companies expenses.


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## VivianLynne (May 30, 2014)

Another 2+ months have flown by again. And I am refreshing my memory for court on Thursday, June 5, 2014. 

I brought a SOFABED last week and they had delivery for that area on Fri June 6th. Happy with it - loved the one in a green shade, but I was worried that the green might not go well with the paint & area rugs. And the thought of how TO GET IT THERE and off the truck into the house was not a pleasant one. Went back to the store 2 weeks later (green was still there) but this salesperson told me the chain DID have delivery to that area and he also had the same sofabed in a brown/"tan-ish" fabric for $100 less. It has a 5 inch mattress and I like the comfort of sitting for me. It is the right height for resting my elbow on the back to face & talk to the person on the other end or across the room. And the back is low enough to not block the view of the fireplace from the dining room table & kitchen. I have decided to bring up an older coffee table and 2 matching end tables. They fit into the scheme of the dining table & hutch - I just have to dig them out of my garage.

I asked the man who did the work for me, if he could come up for court. I feel that the original insurance adjuster is no longer working for the company it might be an issue. He was there to board up the house with her - so as an eye witness he can vouch for the photos. And he had done work over the years prior at the home, he knows the condition and contents. And while the police have pictures of the damage, he is a first person witness to its prior condition and it is not his property. 

So, I will being stay up there - at the house - for a couple of days. If anyone is possibly around the area on Thursday after 3PM (June 5th) or all day Friday (you know delivery people) (June 6th), *PM me for my cell number*. If Saturday is better for you, I can possibly hang around .... I own a timeshare week at Shawnee now (week 52)... day use priviledge.  And as been the status quo, I will have wine and beer - how else does one manage to sleep on the floor when staining woodwork? I stained ALL the woodwork in the house - trim & doors.

Let's see - I have a BATHROOM with a working toilet and a door. I have a refrigerator, stove and dishes. I have a dining room table with chairs. I WILL have a sofa. I have beds. I still have Walmark cheap tablecloths covering the windows & a black trash bag covering the glass on the door --- but the vast majority of stuff for a home will be there.


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## VivianLynne (May 30, 2014)

I brought the "protection" plan for the new sofa bed - will not cover pet damage like clawing or oders or stains. I wanted to make sure it covered evil teenage vandals. 5 year policy.


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## Htoo0 (May 31, 2014)

VivianLynne said:


> I brought the "protection" plan for the new sofa bed - will not cover pet damage like clawing or oders or stains. I wanted to make sure it covered evil teenage vandals. 5 year policy.



Good idea, unfortunately.


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## VivianLynne (Jun 1, 2014)

Late Friday afternoon, I received a TEXT MSG from the lady I talked to last March -- one of the court clerks. She was very KIND enough to text me saying that court has again been postponed til Tuesday July 8. Short text --- but will confirm on Monday.

So this appears to be the NEW defense plan - another postponement will be for a date AFTER the girls go back to college in August.

I still have to go up for the delivery of the sofa; will be up there sometime on Thursday. Will talk it over with the handyman on Monday - have some yard work (bush removal, plant trimming and grass mowing) plus putting the beds together on new bed frames. And we would swap out the refrigerator with a smaller one, too.

So I will still be up there - would be happy to entertain anyone in the area - anytime Friday or Saturday.


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## pjrose (Jun 1, 2014)

AGAIN?  Good grief.  How far are you from Carlisle PA?


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## VivianLynne (Jun 1, 2014)

Via I-81, 153 miles - mapquest says.

Shorter via US22W - 139 miles.

A bit far ... but you are more than welcome  -- suggest an overnight.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

New sofa arrived. It really is beginning to feel like a home (AGAIN!). 

The weather was just beautiful. Helped to get kitchen cabinets organized and to place the dishes in the china buffet/hutch.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?u...tt&th=146785739f5b25e1&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

Okay, I am sitting on the new sofa - so this is what you see across the room while sitting. Yes, those are my knees.

I hope this works. I have no idea - but definitely easier than 2 days of cleaning up and organizing stuff.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

This attachment is a photo of the dining room hutch ... organized with the Churchill Briar Rose pattern dishes. 

And to the right, is the wine goblets - 2 sizes, but NO WINE to be had. There was a bottle of Blackberry brandy in the freezer. Big bottle, but now ALL GONE!

Viv said it was left over from the nightcaps during the construction phrase --- she was trying to tell me it was the one and only bottle. I don't believe her - she was pouring by the knuckle each time she took the bottle out of the freezer. But that is her story ...


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## momeason (Jun 7, 2014)

Linda,
 You should have brought the wine. Where is the kitchen? i noticed the microwave and hotplate. Is the kitchen still under construction?
Nice hutch. The couch and rug looks nice. 

I still have not finished our decorating at our current home and we bought it in 2007. It will all get done eventually.


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## pjrose (Jun 7, 2014)

ooh, that is lovely!  I just love the colors, the stone and wood and carpet and and and everything!  Wish I could have made the trip up, but between a sore throat and cold, and having a ton of paperwork to deal with, I just couldn't do it  
You wouldn't have wanted this cold anyway, I promise 

Wait a sec, I'm confused.  Is this Viv's house or Linda's?  Or is Linda the photographer?  I missed seeing TWO of you?  Grrrrr begone sore throat, begone cold.  And especially BEGONE piles of paperwork!


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

VivianLynne is hiding. I am using my cell phone to take these pictures.

The kitchen is to the RIGHT of the hutch - I have a picture but my upload to the internet ROTATED the picture 90 degrees.

Oh, dang ... maybe a far, far better internet guru can fix it!


Several things ... notice the queen size mattress and box spring between the Sofa & dining room table? No bedframe. Actually, no bedroom furniture for the 2nd bedroom. Just the mattress and box spring in the middle of the house.

Next, notice the bare light blub above the hutch -- the hanging lamp is a relic of the vandals. Shade was destroyed - light blub replaced. 

The end table being used as a coffee cup holder - end table fit into Viv's car. Coffee table matches along with another end table. Also, in the hard rock maple wood like the hutch & dining room table. There 3 types of wooden chairs - one style will be sent as a wood chair in each bedroom.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

momeason said:


> Linda,
> You should have brought the wine. Where is the kitchen? i noticed the microwave and hotplate. Is the kitchen still under construction?
> Nice hutch. The couch and rug looks nice.
> 
> I still have not finished our decorating at our current home and we bought it in 2007. It will all get done eventually.



Those are small bowl things for serving food (like a crockpot, buffet server). The red microwave is a 2nd in the house - for reheating food. The one in the kitchen is a Viking convection oven/microwave mounted over the 2 burner radiant cooktop (NO traditional oven). The GE cooktop is about invisible on the black granite countertop - heat up very fast - very high tech. NOT CHEAP - a stove would have been as expensive and that convection/microwave was more than double the cooktop. Trust me --- everything at debated and then debated, again. And then, the contractor had HIS OPINIONS and some good ideas.

Coffee reheating & popcorn get done in the cheap red microwave. That hutch will be the breakfast buffet area - toaster (red) for bagels, drip coffee pot, and eggs & meat in the crockpot cooker/server.

Any thing a MOUSE might get into (toaster) gets put away in a cabinet. Viv has experience with critters - even overnight - toasters are cheap compared to creepy being inside a toaster.

This is a real cracked (rock) stone fireplace - the sofa is set to an angle to view both the FP and the TV ... neither of which was run, used or operated the 2 days I was there. Too hot for a fire and NO CABLE for the TV. There is a NEW DVD player, except no DVDs. No over the air TV service - some big mountain with a ski area on it blocks the signal to the cabin. Stone F/P did not get damaged by the ETV.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

There was a FIGHT over who got the soaking tub first --- about 4 inches deeper than a regular tub, a fiberglass tub wrapped with insulation to keep the water warmer LONGER. And no wine ... I could have found a Wine & Spirit Shop, but we were just plain tired. We packed up and hauled out 8-10+ packing boxes plus a couple contractors' trash bags full of stuff. Did the hutch setup and about 1/3 of cleaning & organizing the kitchen cabinets (the uppers are 36 inch high verse the standard 30" height). The kitchen is a 1 person alcove. 

The rugs are THE DUMP wool oriental rugs with a 3rd one as a runner down the hall to bath & 2 bedrooms. They really look good and are thick & soft to walk on. That floor is sharp as is all the stained hardwood doors and trim. The main area is painted a light spring green while the hall is a light pink (as is the small bdr) and the large BDR is YELLOW (sunshine, Viv says) - that room has 4 bifolded closet doors - lots of very dark stained woodwork. Sunshine is a good color in that room. Sofabed is from THE DUMP also.

Did you all notice the curtains on the patio doors (and they are on the bedroom windows, too). Called "plastic tablecloths" from Walmart stapled to the top of the window trim. But the real kicker is the BLACK contractor's trash bag with a magnatic curtain rod holding the bag over the glass on the entrance door. Viv did buy and bring up drapery rods for the sliders and bedroom windows - no drapes, just rods. She also has MATCHING cloth seat cushions for the DR chairs (to the plastic tablecloths). Okay, I not going to say anything - it does make the place private and looks okay from outside, but the felt backing facing inwards - I noticed and decided, I was leaving and it didn't seem to be a problem to anyone else there.


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## pjrose (Jun 7, 2014)

I think after everything Viv and the house have been through, a few WM plastic tablecloth/drapes and a black plastic one are clever and functional.  

After loading and lugging and unpacking and cleaning I can understand each of you wanting to be first in the soaking tub.  

Did you two know each other before? Are you related? Are you the same person?


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

Found more kitchen pictures on the cell phone...

This is corner between the cooktop and the kitchen sink under the window. Black granite and that is recycled glass 1inch tile as the backsplash.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

Here is the right corner side of the alcove. On the right, is the white of the refrigerator and on the very left edge, you can just make out the edge of the radiant cooktop.

See why RED is the accent color ... and again, if it has openings, it is in a cabinet. 

The radiant cooktop is a sealed unit ... no crumbs and NO MICE.

THAT THING in the corner with the brown cardboard in its window --- get this, a WINE COOLER/refrigerator - 6 bottles. Viv is ready!


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2014)

Family ... extended family.


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## MuranoJo (Jun 8, 2014)

pjrose said:


> I think after everything Viv and the house have been through, a few WM plastic tablecloth/drapes and a black plastic one are clever and functional.
> 
> After loading and lugging and unpacking and cleaning I can understand each of you wanting to be first in the soaking tub.
> 
> Did you two know each other before? Are you related? Are you the same person?



I'm also puzzled...not sure the extended family photo from 1970 helped clarify. 
Anyway, things are lookin' good.


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