# Law school rejection



## Santina (Apr 8, 2013)

My son is devastated. He is getting rejections and wait lists. He will be graduating temple in may with a 3.85 in political science. Took uthe LSAT and bombed 145. I told him to retake but he didn't listen. Any advise from anyone? What do you do with a poly sci degree anyway? I


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## siesta (Apr 8, 2013)

I was a political science major, went to law school, and am a practicing attorney. Allow me to address your questions.

Your son needs to retake the lsat, that score is not good at all.  Although his gpa is high, the lsat is what we use to predict a student's success in law school.

To get into a decent school he'll need at least a 152, which is about average.  With his high gpa, and at least a 152, he'll be able to get into a tier 3 or 4 school.

If he hasnt already, he needs to take a prep course, I recommend Kaplan.  They will teach him strategies for success, as you can't study for the lsat, you can only study test taking techniques, strategy, and time management skills.

A poly sci degree is really only useful if your planning on going to law school, or if you go into a master's program like public policy or something of that nature and then plan to work for a think tank or the gov. or want to teach.

The nice thing your son has going for him, is in my day they would average your lsat scores, so he would have been in trouble.  Nowadays, they just take the highest score.


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## Santina (Apr 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the valuable advise. He was wait listed at American university. Do you think their is any chance a seat will open up? He didn't take any prep classes for LSAT. Is it possible to improve 10 points?


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## bjones9942 (Apr 8, 2013)

I'd say that devastation is a good motivator.  Have him study, retake the lsat and apply again.  In the mean time there are plenty of organizations around that could use a volunteer.


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2013)

Santina said:


> (My son) Took uthe LSAT and bombed 145. I told him to retake but he didn't listen. Any advise from anyone? What do you do with a poly sci degree anyway? I



My attorney DW says, "Do you want fries with that."


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## siesta (Apr 8, 2013)

Santina said:


> Thanks for all the valuable advise. He was wait listed at American university. Do you think their is any chance a seat will open up? He didn't take any prep classes for LSAT. Is it possible to improve 10 points?


typically, you only improve a few points.

However, the fact that your son did that awful on the lsat but has a good gpa from a good school, leads me to believe he's actually a good test taker.  That means, he seriously screwed something up on the lsat and if he had guidance he could correct that mistake and greatly improve his score.  

For example, he may have skipped questions he didnt know or didnt get to, but on the lsat you dont get penalized for wrong answers.  Therefore you should never leave answers blank, for example if you run out of time, you should just guess and fill in bubbles.

Also, once you get the skills required, typically you can easily get rid of two answers that are clearly wrong, which usually leaves a 50/50 chance even if you dont know the answer.

Additionally, many kids have trouble on the logic games, but there is a trick to them that if you learn, it makes the application of the "rules" much easier, thus leading to the right answers. Kids either love or hate this section, but they are manageable with the right techniques.

Also on the reading comprehension section, learning how to make and refer to a road map is not only a time saver but helps you get to the right answer.  There are techniques to making a road map that is brief and to the point to be used as a reference material for the answer section.

Finally, time management is what is usually the hardest for kids.  There never seems to be enough time, but that is the point.  And trust me, when you get to the two day, 6 hour each day, bar exam, that 6 hours flys by and you wish you had more time and wonder where the time you had went.

Again, I highly recommend Kaplan, dont let him do the online course, he should go to the class, he will get much more out of it.

About the wait list, I'm not sure about his chances obviously.  But I will say this, he should get his butt in that class and improve that score or at least try, because with that gpa and a good lsat score, he may actually be able to get scholarship money. And he will never know if he could have improved if he doesnt try.  If he doesnt want to work for it, he should think twice about law school, there is no coasting by on natural ability.


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## bogey21 (Apr 8, 2013)

He might get a job and apply to one of the Law Schools on a part time basis at Night School.  I assume you live in the vicinity of Philadelphia where there should have a lot of Law Schools to which to apply.  If he takes two courses a Semester and does well, I suspect he won't have any trouble getting accepted full time next year.

George


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2013)

Santina said:


> My son is devastated. He is getting rejections and wait lists. He will be graduating temple in may with a 3.85 in political science. Took uthe LSAT and bombed 145. I told him to retake but he didn't listen. Any advise from anyone? What do you do with a poly sci degree anyway? I



Sorry to hear of the rejection.  I know nothing about law school.  However, I do know that the job market for attorneys is pretty tough right now.  Even if your son improves his LSAT score and gets into a tier 3 or 4 law school, he may not get a decent job when he graduates and takes/ passes the bar exam.

Most times, things happen for a reason.   It might not be a bad idea to think of an alternate career choice.


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## Gophesjo (Apr 9, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Sorry to hear of the rejection.  I know nothing about law school.  However, I do know that the job market for attorneys is pretty tough right now.  Even if your son improves his LSAT score and gets into a tier 3 or 4 law school, he may not get a decent job when he graduates and takes/ passes the bar exam.
> 
> Most times, things happen for a reason.   It might not be a bad idea to think of an alternate career choice.



+1 - The glut of attorneys is only predicted to get worse.  Many experts are saying that in ten years there will be 100% more attorneys than there are jobs for them.  Maybe the rejections and wait lists are actually a blessing.


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## DanaTom (Apr 9, 2013)

Santina said:


> My son is devastated. He is getting rejections and wait lists. He will be graduating temple in may with a 3.85 in political science. Took uthe LSAT and bombed 145. I told him to retake but he didn't listen. Any advise from anyone? What do you do with a poly sci degree anyway? I






Sorry for the situation your son is in.   Personally, I think the suggested "in class" Kaplan's studying is a great one.   Obviously he is a sharp kid with that GPA.   While he's frustrated now, hopefully he will reassess his situation and realize that if he really wants to go to Law school, he can if he puts his mind to it.   I suspect this may be one of the first "failures" he has had to deal with, encourage him and be supportive...   he'll find his way.    

Let him know, even Tuggers are rooting for him.


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## glypnirsgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

*Does he have any experience working in a law office?*

Why does he want to go to law school? What does he know about being a lawyer? 

In addition to Kaplan, I would suggest that he take a formal logic class. It is invaluable in helping to decipher the section on logic.

Secnd, part of his problem is his major --- there is nothing there to differentiate him from the pack. 

Does he have any business credits to add to get a business or accounting degree? What about economics?

Frankly, the job market is abysmal for attorneys. 

My daughter was a 4.0 undergrad with a double major in philosophy and Japanese, took accounting, participated in 4 years of mock trial, won 6 All American Awards. Got into a top 10 law school, UVA. Continued mock trial participation, made law review (both graded on and published on) ... and just barely got a job. She was able to turn that initial job into a really good job with a major New York firm. She feels lucky to be employed.

I have law students work for me part time while they are in school. Two of the four law students I have hired have decided that practicing law is not nearly as fun as it looks on TV, the other two are practicing. One successfully emtered into private practice and she makes her living as a court appointed criminal defense attorney - I doubt that she earns very much. The other makes $48K per year and feels fortunate to have a job. 

Have him call legal aid and the local child support office to see if they need volunteers. It may save him 100K in tuition and he may find out it isn't really what he wants to do. 

The rate of employment AS A LAWYER for law school graduates in 56% for the graduating class of 2012. And it was about the same for 2011. And it isn't getting any better. See this article.  Or this one. . The job prospects do not look like they are improving, either.

elaine


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## Conan (Apr 9, 2013)

The LSAT includes what they call logic games that really cannot be handled without preparation.  An alternative to the Kaplan mass product would be one-on-one tutoring. It's not cheap but it can make the difference.
If you would like to PM me I can refer you to a highly qualified and effective tutor in NYC.


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## bogey21 (Apr 9, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I know nothing about law school.  However, I do know that the job market for attorneys is pretty tough right now.  Even if your son improves his LSAT score and gets into a tier 3 or 4 law school, he may not get a decent job when he graduates and takes/ passes the bar exam.



Absolutely true, but.....

I went to law school for a year with absolutely no intention of becoming a lawyer.  I wanted to understand the law because I felt it would help me when dealing with lawyers later on in my business career.  I believe this was one of the best decisions I ever made.

George


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## siesta (Apr 9, 2013)

I'd recommend the in class prep over one on one for a few reasons.

First, taking diagnostic tests in a classroom setting, with all the distractions that come with it(othher noise making students, proctors walking around) is a better way to get the experience.  Additionally, as long as the locale permits, you will take your final diagnostic at the exact time the lsat will be, often in a similar classroom.

Second, you learn more when you have peers asking questions too.  One on one is great to focus on you, but the truth is the in class prep is usually a dozen kids and sometimes less, so its not really that big of an issue.  Often, peers will ask questions you dont, or give an explanation or bring up a point that helps your lightbulb go off.

Finally, it can give you a boost of much needed confidence or let you know you need to work harder when you are able to gauge how you are doing against your peers in the class, listening to other students give answers, and even comparing diagnostic scores.

Also, the tough job market is not unique to the legal market.  However, going to a good school, getting good grades, networking will all help.  Especially if you are in a large legal market like Chicago, NYC, DC, California.

Those that say it's only getting worse are mistaken.  The job freeze is starting to thaw, at least for big cities with big markets.  I cant speak in regards to small cities with not much industry.


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## Ron98GT (Apr 9, 2013)

Gophesjo said:


> +1 - The glut of attorneys is only predicted to get worse.  Many experts are saying that in ten years there will be 100% more attorneys than there are jobs for them.  Maybe the rejections and wait lists are actually a blessing.


This is the same crap I heard and was told back in the early 1970's, that there was a glut of Electrical Engineers and that I shouldn't pursue it: get a real job.

I'm glad I didn't listen to anybody and pursued my dream.  By completing my degree(s), it also offered me the opportunity to complete another one of my dreams: to work in Aerospace, including the Space Shuttle program.  I've had a fantastic career and I'm still working in the field (but not aerospace), thanks to NOT listening to naysayers. 

Tell your son to do the same: follow his dream.

A friend of ours had her heart (her dream) set on the UNLV School of Law.  After being rejected the first year, she reapplied the next year (don't remember if she re-sat for the LSAT?) and was accepted.  She graduated with honors and is working as an attorney for an all women's law firm here in Las Vegas.

Encourage him on.  Don't let him give up.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> This is the same crap I heard and was told back in the early 1970's, that there was a glut of Electrical Engineers and that I shouldn't pursue it: get a real job.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't listen to anybody and pursued my dream.  By completing my degree(s), it also offered me the opportunity to complete another one of my dreams: to work in Aerospace, including the Space Shuttle program.  I've had a fantastic career and I'm still working in the field (but not aerospace), thanks to NOT listening to naysayers.
> 
> ...



I am 100% on board with people doing what they love as long as they have a realistic expectation of what it will yield.

I did some research and the picture is not pretty for lawyers.  I saw the statistic that only about 56% of law school graduates are employed in jobs requiring passing the bar exam 9 months after graduation.   Many of them take jobs outside of a job that requires a law degree.

Worse yet, the legal profession is a Club.  You are either in the Club by graduating from a top law school. Or, you are everyone else sucking wind in the job market.

Top law firms pay about $160k starting salaries.   Everyone else makes between $45-65k per year.   A manager at McDonald's makes around $40k.






Unless I were attending a tier 1 law school, I would ditch this profession, just from the economics of it.


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## Beaglemom3 (Apr 9, 2013)

I took my first LSATs without having them reported. Think "test run". I was an older student (late 40s-early 50s). Glad I did. After that, I took a prep course (can suggest a few; Kaplan, Princeton Review and Powerscore - research all.) My score improved enough (several points) to get me the school I wanted. 

Those who have undergraduate and graduate degrees in medicine, nursing, business-MBA, maritime affairs, engineering, human resources,  labor relations, biomedical, etc. have an easier time finding a job with the dual degree in that we can specialize within our field of expertise/concentration. At least this is what I've seen here in the Northeast. I do consulting only, that is the "cake" money as it pays well, but not consistently. The "bread" money, is in the nurse practitioner work, pays less, but still well and is dependable and regular. 

Those who do find jobs with big law firms should anticipate 80-100/hrs. week at work.


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## lprstn (Apr 9, 2013)

Have him apply to all the schools he can. Then apply for a summer job, internship with a government agency while he awaits the opportunity to retest.


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## MichaelColey (Apr 9, 2013)

Definitely retake it.  I have a friend who scored poorly the first time.  He studied hard, retook it and scored much better.  He did well in law school, graduated, went on to become a prosecutor, and after a few years opened his own practice.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> This is the same crap I heard and was told back in the early 1970's, that there was a glut of Electrical Engineers and that I shouldn't pursue it: get a real job.



Engineering is a decent field because you learn technical and problem solving skills that are in high demand.

My son, who is a freshman in engineering, was able to get offers for several paid internships for this summer pretty easily.  He was able to pick where he wanted to go.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 9, 2013)

I believe your son needs to take the LSAT as serious as any class and with proper test preparation, his scores should go up.

I also think another year of school (taking legal introduction classes) and/or legal internship/volunteering will help him decide if the law is a profession he want to go into.

To me, I am guessing he wants to go to law school as there is nothing better on the horizon and he may lack the passion for law, but that is only a guess. Has your son even spent anytime in an attorney office to learn what lawyers do on a daily basis.



BocaBum99 said:


> Sorry to hear of the rejection.  I know nothing about law school.  However, I do know that the job market for attorneys is pretty tough right now.  Even if your son improves his LSAT score and gets into a tier 3 or 4 law school, he may not get a decent job when he graduates and takes/ passes the bar exam.
> 
> Most times, things happen for a reason.   It might not be a bad idea to think of an alternate career choice.



wow...you are not only making a value judgment that Tier 3 or 4 law schools are inferior to Tier 1 or 2, you are advising a career choice based upon one LSAT that the student apparently did not prepare for.

Are you a professional career coach or just play one online?



BocaBum99 said:


> I am 100% on board with people doing what they love as long as they have a realistic expectation of what it will yield.
> 
> I did some research and the picture is not pretty for lawyers.  I saw the statistic that only about 56% of law school graduates are employed in jobs requiring passing the bar exam 9 months after graduation.   Many of them take jobs outside of a job that requires a law degree.
> 
> ...



Again, more hot air from boca. Not all attorneys WANT to be employed, some actually enjoy working for themselves.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being a manager at McDonalds. Seriously, this job is better than going to 4 years of undergrad with $200k debt and adding another 3 years of law school $180 debt and finding out that you hate the law profession. At least a McDonalds manager will have a decent paying job with minimal student debt and minimal amount of wasted years in school.



BocaBum99 said:


> Really?  You check to see where they were educated?
> 
> When I am performing due diligence on an attorney, business consultant or doctor, the first thing I check are their patients/clients and referrals.  In other words, their track record.   What they have done is infinitely more important than the University that is on their Diploma.



The above quote from you was taken from another thread and shows you are a confused person.

What is it.....on one hand you think anything other than a Tier 1 law school is garbage (or equivalent to working at McDonalds) and on the other hand, you pick an attorney based on some magical formula and ignore the school.


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## Santina (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks for all the comments. He has law clerked and it is his dream to be a lawyer. So I am going to advise him to not give the fight up for now. Take a course and retake LSAT's. He studied so hard these past 4 years and it seems in the end hard work isn't paying off. Most of the applications say we look at the whole person not just Lsat scores but sadly that is not true. They want your application money I think.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> I believe your son needs to take the LSAT as serious as any class and with proper test preparation, his scores should go up.
> 
> I also think another year of school (taking legal introduction classes) and/or legal internship/volunteering will help him decide if the law is a profession he want to go into.
> 
> ...



LOL.  You are doing more to discredit your own analytical skills with every post.  Keep posting.   You are doing a better job than anyone could do to prove you have earned the title you gave yourself.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2013)

Santina said:


> Thanks for all the comments. He has law clerked and it is his dream to be a lawyer. So I am going to advise him to not give the fight up for now. Take a course and retake LSAT's. He studied so hard these past 4 years and it seems in the end hard work isn't paying off. Most of the applications say we look at the whole person not just Lsat scores but sadly that is not true. They want your application money I think.



I think they all say they look at the whole person when in reality they don't.  They actually can't due to time constraints.


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## bogey21 (Apr 9, 2013)

Has he tried showing up unannounced at the Admissions Office at the schools that rejected him (or put him on their wait list) and asking to see the Director of Admissions.  You never know but that kind of extra effort might get him over the hump.

George


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## x3 skier (Apr 9, 2013)

Why anyone would want to be an new attorney these days is beyond me, but if he really does, take the test again and work someplace as an intern or even a legal secretary to get a better understanding of the career. If he can't get a position, that might reveal something about future expectations. 

Cheers


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## Conan (Apr 9, 2013)

I was sorry to see objections here to the idea of one-on-one tutoring.  It really is the most effective way to focus on fixing what's broken.  (If his reading comprehension skills are already top notch, the tutor can concentrate on other areas.)

Then there are other application strategies to look into - - for example how to write an effective essay.

I'll also mention that there's other gamesmanship to getting into a higher tier law school.  The ideal way to spend the coming year apart from LSAT prep would be in public service.  I don't know if Americorps is hiring, but a year in the inner city doing good works goes a long way in the law school admissions game.


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## m61376 (Apr 9, 2013)

The sad reality is that the law schools use a formula scoring for LSAT and GPA's, that actually will favor a student with a 165/3.0 over a 160/4.0. Doesn't make sense to me, but that's how much weight is given to that one single test.

Binary Solutions is another test prep course in NYC. It's a unique course, and is given by the program developer, so that students are not subject to the luck of the draw, so to speak. The problem with Kaplan or Princeton review, and many of the others, is that you can get a dynamite instructor or one that is so-so- and when you're investing the course fee, your time, and most importantly counting on getting the best instruction you can get, if you land up with an inexperienced teacher it can be devastating. I know when my daughter took it a few years back she had students in her class traveling in from NJ and Philly for the course due to its reputation. She felt it really made a difference.

Good luck! If this is his dream, he has to prep and retake the LSAT, and he needs some real life experience. In fact, most students today entering law school have worked elsewhere for at least a year and admissions counselors dissuade applicants from applying directly out of college unless they have done legal internships.


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## Beaglemom3 (Apr 9, 2013)

Conan said:


> I was sorry to see objections here to the idea of one-on-one tutoring.  It really is the most effective way to focus on fixing what's broken.  (If his reading comprehension skills are already top notch, the tutor can concentrate on other areas.)
> 
> Then there are other application strategies to look into - - for example how to write an effective essay.
> 
> I'll also mention that there's other gamesmanship to getting into a higher tier law school.  The ideal way to spend the coming year apart from LSAT prep would be in public service.  I don't know if Americorps is hiring, but a year in the inner city doing good works goes a long way in the law school admissions game.



  No objections and it's a fine idea, pricey, but money well spent IMHO.

www.powerscore.com and this intensive (or others like it) are good, too :
http://continue.utah.edu/prep/class/prep_100_lsat_prep_course

  Some of the prep courses offer 1:1 tutoring as an adjunct to the main course.


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## am1 (Apr 9, 2013)

A lot of good advice here.  

I would think that if someone is devastated over law school rejections/being wait listed then they are meant to be a lawyer.  He may improve his score, volunteer or his parents donate millions of dollars but he needs a stronger chin.  

The money, effort and time could be better spent elsewhere.


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## VegasBella (Apr 9, 2013)

I used powerscore and got a high score. I got offers from lots of schools. My goal was not to practice law but rather to write legislation. Long story short I never finished law school and now I regret ever going. I honestly LOVED practicing for and taking the LSAT. But the politics/competition/social aspects of law school did me in. It baffles me that schools place so much weight on that test when virtually nothing in law school is at all similar to the LSAT.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 9, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> It baffles me that schools place so much weight on that test when virtually nothing in law school is at all similar to the LSAT.



Exactly.

Also, kids from elite private schools in Hawaii with near perfect SAT scores will soon work for the business students that got "C" on their transcripts.

Back to the original poster. I would simply refocus on doing better on the LSAT and use the time to beef up his resume with legal activities, legal courses, legal volunteering, etc. It is time to eat, drink, sleep all things related to the legal profession.

Also, he should apply to 9 law schools

3 schools that are at the top end of his reach and will be very hard to get into
3 schools that he might get into if he is lucky
3 schools that he should definitely get into

Finally, there is an online "Concord" law school via Kaplan. I am not saying this is a great option, but it is an option.


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## nightnurse613 (Apr 9, 2013)

I agree with previous posters about taking Kaplan. While having a good education (as evidenced by his GPA) is important, knowing how to take the test is also important.  Years ago a friend took a Post Office exam.  The prep class he took cost a little however, he says it taught him one little trick that helped him pass the test for sure. Psychology of testing.  I'm confused because I just read an article on how a couple of the Arizona law colleges are considering lowering their tuition in order to attract more students. If I remember correctly, they still had plenty of applicants - more than they had room for, but the total number of applications had fallen off.  Tucson can be lovely this time of year.


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## normab (Apr 10, 2013)

bjones9942 said:


> I'd say that devastation is a good motivator.  Have him study, retake the lsat and apply again.  In the mean time there are plenty of organizations around that could use a volunteer.



I agree with this and have a similar experience.  My extremely bright son who didn't work too hard, missed out on 2 opportunites to get into Pharmacy school without a similar entry exam.  So his last shot was with the exam.  He was motivated at that point, and he got a study guide (probably Kaplan) and spent  2 months doing the entire book.  He aced the exam which is probably what got him into the program.  He is now graduating with his Pharm D, but with only a 3.0 average, which is not high for this degree.  But he IS graduating!!   

So I agree with doing some type of prep class and retaking...


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 10, 2013)

normab said:


> I agree with this and have a similar experience.  My extremely bright son who didn't work too hard, missed out on 2 opportunites to get into Pharmacy school without a similar entry exam.  So his last shot was with the exam.  He was motivated at that point, and he got a study guide (probably Kaplan) and spent  2 months doing the entire book.  He aced the exam which is probably what got him into the program.  He is now graduating with his Pharm D, but with only a 3.0 average, which is not high for this degree.  But he IS graduating!!
> 
> So I agree with doing some type of prep class and retaking...



Pharm D is a very HARD get into program and a 3.0 is not a BAD/terrible GPA. My niece who had several years of being a hospital pharmtech, 2 bio-science majors with great grades => got into Pharm D with the whole package including her hospital's chief of Pharmacy department's glowing recommendation to his alma marta. Her 3 suite mates just left her in the DUST with their study habits and focus. She did get her head onto the task and did decently - got a residency (also extremely competive process); but her LIFE STOPPED DEAD for those 3 years (3 yr program). And knowing what she went thru, dared NOT to ask her GPA as her 3 suitemates ALL got straight A's. The one girl was *the* TOP student in the class.

And no, she was NOT friends with them as they were from a different ethic background and culture and THEY barely acknowledged her presence.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 10, 2013)

Santina said:


> My son is devastated. He is getting rejections and wait lists. He will be graduating temple in may with a 3.85 in political science. Took uthe LSAT and bombed 145. I told him to retake but he didn't listen. Any advise from anyone? What do you do with a poly sci degree anyway? I



I think it is clear that he needs to STUDY TO THE TEST and take it again.

Here is some data:

Taking into account the past performance of students who took the LSAT from the last few years, a rough estimate of the average LSAT score range could be considered to be between 140 and 160. That is about 70% of those who took the LSAT would have scored between 140 and 160. However, this average score of 140 to 160 is just not enough to ensure you get admission to a law college. Most law students would have scored at least between 160 and 168. This range is considered a ‘good’ score range, which means that you stand a good chance of being considered for admission in a law college. But if you are aiming to join one of the reputable law institutions in the country, then you are more likely to be considered if you have an LSAT score between 168 and 175.

Here is a good overview site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_School_Admission_Test




vacationhopeful said:


> And no, she was NOT friends with them as they were from a different ethic background and culture and THEY barely achnowledge her presence.



Hmmm, let me guess, they are Asian or Indian. It seems these two groups are super focused on school over anything else and that is why they are so overrepresented in many programs. I guess the US is seeing what Global competition really means.


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## heathpack (Apr 10, 2013)

Just a word about everyone encourgaging this kid to "not give up on his dream."  We get a lot of this in veterinary medicine as well- kids bound and determined to become a veterinarian at all costs.  Well, sometimes quite honestly, its not worth the costs.  I wish somebody would actually say that to these kids.  To defer gainful employment while applying a few times to vet school is a pretty big loss in lifetime income.  Not to mention hours of effort of various volunteer activities to strengthen the application.  Cost of test prep courses and travel to interviews.

Then a feeling that the candidate will go to ANY vet school that will accept him/her regardless of the expense.  Maybe a Caribbean vet school or one with out-of-state tuition.  That can easily leave the kid $300,000 in debt (my current intern has this exact amount in student loans).

All of that to get a job that may only pay $60,000 a year to start.  Or else you could try to become a specialist and you will command a much haigher starting salary- but depending on the field it might be really, really hard to get accepted into an advanced training program.  So you might have to apply 2-3 times.  Right now in neurology, there is a ratio of 4:1 applicants to postions.  And in surgery there is a 15:1 ratio.  Plus you can't even get a residency without an internship, so the process of getting into a program and getting specialty training can take anouther 4-6-7 years.  All the while deferring the loans and adding the unpaid interest to the principle.  Yes, you can make much more money and have a very interesting career as a specialist, but nowadays its a very expensive endeavor.

Sometimes I wish some responsible adult would just tell some of these kids to do something else, the one's who are pushing so hard to make it happen- year after year after year.  Not necessarily the OP's son, it makes sense for him to give it another try.  But if its not happening, then I would suggest that he consider that it would be a very reasonable option to change his dream rather than pursue it relentlessly.

H


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## Elan (Apr 10, 2013)

What I get from this thread is that if I pay for enough tutoring, and take the LSAT enough times, I too can get into a top law school.  I always wondered what I was going to do when I got tired of engineering.


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## spears2008 (Apr 10, 2013)

*Don't go to a low ranked lawschool & throw $ away -it will limit career opportunities*

I'm a lawyer - graduated from Cornell Law in '03.  I taught the LSAT prep course at the Princeton Review and would recommend that or Kaplan.  

My advice: It's ok to wait a year and apply again next year if your son doesn't get into a good lawschool this year.  He should NOT go to a tier III or IV school unless you are independently wealthy and spending a 100,000 or 200,000 on an education that won't likely turn into a good paying job doesn't matter.

When I went to Cornell everyone got great paying jobs no matter where you were in the class ranking - now it's only the top half that get the top jobs and it's competitive to get into a mid tier firm or public interest job.  That's at a top ivy league school.  Those attending lower ranked schools face much worse career opportunities.  The top 2-5 students at these schools will get great jobs.  Many of the rest will be struggling to get a $10 an hour part-time document review job.  If they are lucky...

I personally didn't get into my top choice lawschool the first time I applied after being waitlisted, so I stayed at my undergrad and got a masters degree in accounting, then reapplied the next year.  I had a very high LSAT score the first time I applied, but during my Masters studies, I taught for the Princeton Review and decided to take the test again to get a few more points.  I ended up with an even higher score, which opened up opportunities at numerous top schools which I had not previously considered.  It is hard to improve your LSAT score by much if you are already at the top  - from 145, there is tons of room for improvement.   

This test is not a test of intelligence, only a test of whether you know how to take the test.  A prep course like Princeton Review or Kaplan will teach him the tricks and strategies for excelling on the test.  Don't bother with a course that teaches "content" your son doesn't need to "learn" -- he has done well at school and is clearly intelligent.  He needs to get a strategy for taking the test.  He'll know where to spend his time on the test, which problems to guess 'B' and move on, which essays/problems to work first, next, last, never.  It's a game and your son needs to learn how to play it.  

Your son should absolutely 100% study and take the test again.  If he is on the waitlist at schools, a big increase in his score could make the difference to get him in.  Again, I would consider whether it's worth it to take whatever school he can get in this year, or spend a year doing other study, work, volunteer work (peace corps anyone), etc.  Getting into a good/great school will vastly alter your son's future career opportunities.  Also, a plan to transfer after his 1L year is not advisable -- a very lucky few are able to make a move up based on 1st semester 1L grades, the rest are stuck where they started lawschool.

I am happy to discuss the ins and outs of lawschool and a legal career with you and/or your son if you'd like advice from someone who has been there, done that and despite a few bumps along the way has had a successful career thus far (and I credit going to Cornell for opening up many of the doors that I've had the privelege of walking through).  

I recommend visiting AboveTheLaw.com to see some info on the legal market, career opportunities, lawschools, and how the choice of school will shape your opportunities.  If you want to work at a large firm, you must go to a Tier I school, or be one of the top students at a local lower school (but I don't recommend going to lawschool with this as your plan).

Best of luck to your son.  PM me if you'd like to discuss further.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 10, 2013)

H - my younger sister has been having these talks to her HS senior boy for several years. And she has been talking to his classmate's parents for the last 4+ years also. They all live in a upper middle class neighborhood - most withOUT any doctorate degrees and most with both parent's working in decent career/middle management jobs (not exactly NEEDS based financial families).

The current close "friend" crop of kids have gotten their college acceptance letters (last came out April 1st) - in state public, out of state public, private colleges ... LOANs and almost no scholarship monies and mostly state schools. These are the kids from a county wide S.T.E.M. (selective) program which starts when they enter 9th grade. Every class is a STEM class. 115 kids started with less than a 5% dropout factor. Engineering applicants for the most part.

Most of these S.T.E.M. kids will NOT going out of state. IVY League schools were applied to and not gotten into. Regional tier leading schools had a good acceptance rate (like Lehigh, RPI, Duke & Georgia Tech) but with no scholarship aid. Their state university ACCEPTED most of my sister's "friend crop" of kids to their Scholars and Presidental HONORs programs. Again, no financial aid; just loans. The state university (main campus) is less than 30 minute drive from their graduating high school - I am willing to bet, some of this "friend" group will be a commuter college students.

These parents DO NOT want their kids "saddled" with $200+K in undergraduate student loans. Nor will they mortgage their retirements to pay money to universities for a "college experience". 

Soon, top level state universities slots will be unavailable to kids who are the  lower A-/high B average student. THE state universities are getting THAT HARD to get into.


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## hypnotiq (Apr 10, 2013)

Elan said:


> I always wondered what I was going to do when I got tired of engineering.



Me too!


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## PStreet1 (Apr 10, 2013)

I taught A.P. for years and years in one of the wealthiest communities in the U.S.; Ivy League applications/acceptances, law/med/vet/ school plans were routine.

Even so, many students were simply not "the right stuff" for what their plans/parents' wishes/friends' expectations dictated.

I, and many others, tried to explain that once the first job is secured, future jobs/promotions/etc. came from job performance, not the school they graduated from.  I, and many others, tried to explain that attending a "lesser" school for a year or two and making outstanding grades was a financial plus and, while not a guarantee of acceptance at a higher tier school, definitely increased their chances of ultimately having the name of their dream school on their diplomas.

Students came back to report on experiences throughout their undergraduate years and continued to report on graduate school applications/acceptances/experiences/internships/job offers/etc.

HEATHPACK'S  and VACATIONHOPEFUL'S posts on this forum contain advice that many need to hear.  I heard the regrets from those who didn't hear it before the debt was incurred.  They didn't hear because they weren't listening or because they didn't want to hear it or because it was never offered.  We do have a, in my opinion, misplaced emphasis on "following the dream" in this country.  It makes sense to follow the dream if some sort of reasonable progress is being made; it doesn't if the cost (financially/emotionally/whatever) is actually higher than the person will be willing to pay when looking back on the experience.  There's no way to know how you'll feel looking back--but it should be pointed out that "following the dream" isn't all there is to the decision.


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## Elan (Apr 10, 2013)

hypnotiq said:


> Me too!



  Given that a former patent attorney at my company had to decide _which_ Ferrari to drive in each morning, I think I'll specialize in IP law.


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## bogey21 (Apr 10, 2013)

PStreet1 said:


> I, and many others, tried to explain that once the first job is secured, future jobs/promotions/etc. came from job performance, not the school they graduated from.  I, and many others, tried to explain that attending a "lesser" school for a year or two and making outstanding grades was a financial plus and, while not a guarantee of acceptance at a higher tier school, definitely increased their chances of ultimately having the name of their dream school on their diplomas.



So true.  I went to 7 universities before finally graduating.  After the first one all the Admissions Offices looked at were my grades at the previous universities.  High School grades and SAT and ACT results meant absolutely nothing.

George


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## tashamen (Apr 10, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> Has he tried showing up unannounced at the Admissions Office at the schools that rejected him (or put him on their wait list) and asking to see the Director of Admissions.  You never know but that kind of extra effort might get him over the hump.



Sorry but this is not a very good idea.  I worked in law school admissions for 4 years and if anyone tried that it would only guarantee that they would definitely not get in.  The only thing worse is having their parents do the same thing (and believe me, several did even though the applicants were all adults...)


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## gnorth16 (Apr 10, 2013)

I would look at (not necessarily in this order)

1.  Annual Earnings
2.  Job Market
3.  Education Requirements
4.  Cost of Education
5.  Hours of work/time off/benefits
6.  Work Environment

What happens when you are $200k in debt, working  70 hours per week, not taking a vacation, and hating the job you do at a wage that can barely pay the bills?  

Maybe this is why there are so many angry and depressed people out there...


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## hypnotiq (Apr 10, 2013)

Conversation reminds me of this exchange. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg


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## Ron98GT (Apr 10, 2013)

Beaglemom3 said:


> I took my first LSATs without having them reported. Think "test run". I was an older student (late 40s-early 50s). Glad I did. After that, I took a prep course (can suggest a few; Kaplan, Princeton Review and Powerscore - research all.) My score improved enough (several points) to get me the school I wanted.
> 
> Those who have undergraduate and graduate degrees in medicine, nursing, business-MBA, maritime affairs, engineering, human resources,  labor relations, biomedical, etc. have an easier time finding a job with the dual degree in that we can specialize within our field of expertise/concentration. At least this is what I've seen here in the Northeast. I do consulting only, that is the "cake" money as it pays well, but not consistently. The "bread" money, is in the nurse practitioner work, pays less, but still well and is dependable and regular.
> 
> Those who do find jobs with big law firms should anticipate 80-100/hrs. week at work.



#1.  I took my LSAT at the University of San Diego (beautiful campus).  So your son can also check out LSAT review classes at U of P, other Universities, or take Kaplan as others suggested.  (I couldn't see spending 90K and switching careers, so I got a MSEE instead).

#2.  My brother had/has a PhD in Entomology (Biology), but couldn't get hired as a full-time Prof at the University of Illinois. So he went to law school in Seattle, graduated, and as had a career as an Environmental Lawyer.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 10, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> ...#2.  My brother had/has a PhD in Entomology (Biology), but couldn't get hired as a full-time Prof at the University of Illinois. So he went to law school in Seattle, graduated, and as had a career as an Environment Lawyer.



A case WHERE your brother looked at his skill set and developed a NEW plan. 

Hopefully, he is happy in his career and would never do it differently, if he had it to do over...


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 10, 2013)

Elan said:


> What I get from this thread is that if I pay for enough tutoring, and take the LSAT enough times, I too can get into a top law school.  I always wondered what I was going to do when I got tired of engineering.



I find it ironic that criminal justice majors and pre-Law majors do the worst on the LSAT

You may have an easier time on the LSAT according to this data from wikipedia:

----------------------------

University of North Texas economist Michael Nieswiadomy has conducted several studies (in 1998, 2006, and 2008) derived from LSAC data. In the most recent study Nieswiadomy took the LSAC's categorization of test-takers into 162 majors and grouped these into 29 categories, finding the averages of each major:

    Mathematics/Physics 160.0
    Economics and Philosophy/Theology (tie) 157.4
    International relations 156.5
Engineering 156.2
    Government/service 156.1
    Chemistry 156.1
    History 155.9
    Interdisciplinary studies 155.5
    Foreign languages 155.3
    English 155.2
    Biology/natural sciences 154.8
    Arts 154.2
    Computer science 154.0
    Finance 153.4
    Political science 153.1
    Psychology 152.5
    Liberal arts 152.4
    Anthropology/geography 152.2
    Accounting 151.7
    Journalism 151.5
    Sociology/social work 151.2
    Marketing 150.8
    Business management 149.7
    Education 149.4
    Business administration 149.1
    Health professions 148.4
    Pre-law 148.3
    Criminal justice 146.0


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## Ron98GT (Apr 10, 2013)

spears2008 said:


> I'm a lawyer - graduated from Cornell Law in '03.  I taught the LSAT prep course at the Princeton Review and would recommend that or Kaplan.
> 
> My advice: It's ok to wait a year and apply again next year if your son doesn't get into a good lawschool this year.  He should NOT go to a tier III or IV school unless you are independently wealthy and spending a 100,000 or 200,000 on an education that won't likely turn into a good paying job doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



The LSAT had nothing to with "content" - the Law.  They don't give you enough time to complete the test, that's built in.  It's about logic: if A and B (or not B), therefore C.  The only thing is you have to read a couple of paragraphs, so speed reading helps. It's not about picking the right answer.  You read the question, cross off the obvious wrong answer(s), make a guess, and then move on.  You need to answer as many questions as possible.  That's what we practiced a lot in the LSAT review class.

It's been 21 years since I took my review class and sat for the LSAT, but that's what I remember. And that it was a very stressful day.  My wife took me straight out for drinks after taking the exam. Practice-Practice-Practice, under the ticking clock.


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## x3 skier (Apr 10, 2013)

The only test for grad school I ever took was the GMAT for Biz School. It was ridiculously easy. Never having taken a Business class in my life and not preparing for it I scored some stupidly high number. My undergrad degree was Mechanical Engineering.

I find it fascinating that such a test is used for such a large measure in determing admission. Apparently, all it measures is the ability to pass a test since the test prep industry is focused on how to pass the test and not the knowledge of the student. 

I might take the LSAT just for giggles. 

Fortunately, I have no need for a third career so I wouldn't add to the current oversupply of attorneys nor take someone's place. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Apr 10, 2013)

Sorry duplicate. 

Cheers


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## Twinkstarr (Apr 10, 2013)

This reminds me of friend's daughter. Wanted to be a dancer, got a full ride 4 yr scholarship to Sarah Lawrence(excellent program for her) but turned her nose up at the campus. Went to NYU instead, parents paid for it, plus off site apartment(little precious didn't like dorm life after freshman yr) who knows when they will be able to retire now and she is working as a banquet manager.


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## SMHarman (Apr 10, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> I find it ironic that criminal justice majors and pre-Law majors do the worst on the LSAT
> 
> You may have an easier time on the LSAT according to this data from wikipedia:
> 
> ...


This is not unusual.  In the UK Accountants don't have to come from a Accounting degree.  Those that come from an Accounting background  often find it harder to pass the exams.  It is that learning you did and promptly forgot in your college years means you don't work as hard to learn the material as if you were studying it for the first time.  Familiarity breeds contempt.


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## LisaH (Apr 10, 2013)

deleted...


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## Conan (Apr 10, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> You read the question, cross off the obvious wrong answer(s), make a guess, and then move on.  You need to answer as many questions as possible.  That's what we practiced a lot in the LSAT review class.



I feel vindicated in recommending a private tutor if you need to score high....


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## ondeadlin (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm a practicing attorney on my firm's recruiting committee.

The strongest advice I can give your son is to forgo law school for 2-5 years, then consider law school.  Many firms - mine included - prefer candidates with work experience over what we term K-through-JD candidates, i.e. those who start kindergarden and go all the way through law school with new breaks.  There are many reasons for this.  Work builds discipline and work experience weeds out those who aren't serious about being attorneys.

The fact the job market is still weak is an added reason to put off law school for a few years.

The legal business still places a great deal of emphasis on where you went to law school.  Your son's current LSAT will really limit his choice of schools and therefore his job prospects.  

A few year's off and then some intense prep in a Kaplan course is the best course of action.


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## bogey21 (Apr 11, 2013)

ondeadlin said:


> The strongest advice I can give your son is to forgo law school for 2-5 years, then consider law school.  Many firms - mine included - prefer candidates with work experience over what we term K-through-JD candidates.....



This makes sense to me but I would modify it slightly.  Get a job but attend law school at night for a year or so getting the basic stuff out of the way; i.e. Contracts, Torts, Introduction to Law, etc.  I see a  number of good reasons for this.  First, if and when you decide to go to Law School full time, you will have a head start.  Second, good grades, maturity and a work history should help getting into the school you want.  Third, you will get a better feel for whether or not you really want to become a lawyer.  And finally, the things you learn will help you in life and business even if you decide not to pursue a career in law.

George


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## glypnirsgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> The LSAT had nothing to with "content" - the Law.  They don't give you enough time to complete the test, that's built in.  It's about logic: if A and B (or not B), therefore C.  The only thing is you have to read a couple of paragraphs, so speed reading helps. It's not about picking the right answer.  You read the question, cross off the obvious wrong answer(s), make a guess, and then move on.  You need to answer as many questions as possible.  That's what we practiced a lot in the LSAT review class.



Exactly! It is the reason that I recommend a formal logic class. And, probably one of the reasons that math majors (who would learn boolean logic) scored highest and philosophy majors (logic is almost always a required course) score second highest on the list. 

Kaplan was able to raise my daughter's score by about 10 points. So, I think that the course reviews --- or private tutor --- is well worth it.

Also, I believe that what type of law that he wishes to practice matters in selection of school. To be a Wall Street lawyer or a D.C. lawyer, he will need to be in a tier one school. To hang out his own shingle, it doesn't matter. If he wants to be a trial attorney, he should go to a school that has a great trial program.

elaine


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 11, 2013)

glypnirsgirl said:


> .... If he wants to be a trial attorney, he should go to a school that has a great trial program.
> 
> elaine



Stetson Law in Tampa ... believe it or not. Law School founded in 1900 in Deland, moved inthe 1960's to Tampa. Has won more National Law Advocacy trial titles than any other law school.


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## ondeadlin (Apr 11, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> This makes sense to me but I would modify it slightly.  Get a job but attend law school at night for a year or so getting the basic stuff out of the way; i.e. Contracts, Torts, Introduction to Law, etc.  I see a  number of good reasons for this.  First, if and when you decide to go to Law School full time, you will have a head start.  Second, good grades, maturity and a work history should help getting into the school you want.  Third, you will get a better feel for whether or not you really want to become a lawyer.  And finally, the things you learn will help you in life and business even if you decide not to pursue a career in law.
> 
> George



I would disagree with this approach.  Part-time and night students are typically not eligible for scholarship aid and typically achieve lower grades because law school is very academically taxing and they are dividing their attention between work and school.

Law school is a full-time commitment if you want to achieve a well-paying job out of law school.  The only time I would recommend the part-time route would be for someone who wishes to supplement an already established career where a JD would be beneficial, or someone simply wants to practice as a solo.

Large firms rarely hire people in the part-time programs in my experience.


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## Patri (Apr 11, 2013)

Twinkstarr said:


> This reminds me of friend's daughter. Wanted to be a dancer, got a full ride 4 yr scholarship to Sarah Lawrence(excellent program for her) but turned her nose up at the campus. Went to NYU instead, parents paid for it, plus off site apartment(little precious didn't like dorm life after freshman yr) who knows when they will be able to retire now and she is working as a banquet manager.



This is too much info on an innocent person not involved in TUG. Someone could find her because of this thread and start chatting about her past. She deserves some privacy.


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 11, 2013)

Since we are talking about lawyers....Anyone know any good family law attorneys that work for free?


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 11, 2013)

Patri said:


> This is too much info on an innocent person not involved in TUG. Someone could find her because of this thread and start chatting about her past. She deserves some privacy.



I agree.....that hotel is a really nice place



Ridewithme38 said:


> Since we are talking about lawyers....Anyone know any good family law attorneys that work for free?



I don't know any attorneys that work for free unless it is a really special case. I hope this request is not for someone that can afford a fancy cell phone, nice vacations, luxury car payments, but when it comes to medical and legal care, they want something for free.


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## bogey21 (Apr 11, 2013)

ondeadlin said:


> I would disagree with this approach.  Part-time and night students are typically not eligible for scholarship aid and *typically achieve lower grades *because law school is very academically taxing and they are dividing their attention between work and school.



I don't understand the lower grades stuff.  Remember I'm only suggesting using night school for the first 4-5 courses.  After I graduated from college I went to Law School at night for 3 semesters and had no trouble getting all "A"s.  Maybe it was because I had no desire to become a lawyer so I just listened and learned.

George


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## ondeadlin (Apr 11, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> I don't understand the lower grades stuff.  Remember I'm only suggesting using night school for the first 4-5 courses.  After I graduated from college I went to Law School at night for 3 semesters and had no trouble getting all "A"s.  Maybe it was because I had no desire to become a lawyer so I just listened and learned.
> 
> George



Not a judgment on my part - studies have shown that at schools with part-time programs and full time programs, the part-time students typically have lower grade point averages.  The most common explanation is that they are typically trying to juggle at least two important tasks - working and law school or raising a family and law school (or both).

The financial aid aspect is also very significant.  These days law schools are generous with financial aid - but almost always only to students who begin (and stay) in the full-time program.  You can't start part-time and then decide to go full-time and ask for scholarship money.  It doesn't happen.

As I said above, there are scenarios where it makes sense to go part-time, but if you want to maximize your career options and minimize your debt, it's best to work for a few years out of undergrad and then go to law school full time.


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 11, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> I don't know any attorneys that work for free unless it is a really special case. I hope this request is not for someone that can afford a fancy cell phone, nice vacations, luxury car payments, but when it comes to medical and legal care, they want something for free.



Does an Acura count as a Luxury car?


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## Passepartout (Apr 11, 2013)

*This whole tangent probably deserves it's own thread*



Ridewithme38 said:


> Anyone know any good family law attorneys that work for free?



My experience with attorneys is that you get what you pay for. You want free, call Legal Aid.

In the end, few things are more expensive than a cheap- or worse, free- lawyer.


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## bogey21 (Apr 11, 2013)

ondeadlin said:


> As I said above, there are scenarios where it makes sense to go part-time, but if you want to maximize your career options and minimize your debt, it's best to work for a few years out of undergrad and then go to law school full time.



What you say makes sense if a career in the law is your goal.  My perspective was from the point of view of one who never intended to be a lawyer.  My Law School experience (6 courses) proved to be invaluable to me later in my business career when dealing with lawyers and the law.

George


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 11, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> My experience with attorneys is that you get what you pay for. You want free, call Legal Aid.
> 
> In the end, few things are more expensive than a cheap- or worse, free- lawyer.



I'm going to end up paying $15,000-$20,000 to go from an 80/20 custody situation to a 70/30 custody situation, hopefully...in the end that 10% is 876 more hours a year with my daughter, which is awesome, but that's a lot of money for awesome...

Actually, compared to timeshares, thats a deal! A marriott ownership could cost you $20,000 and you only get 168 hours(a week) a year for it!


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## am1 (Apr 11, 2013)

For that amount you should get 50/50.  

Good luck.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm going to end up paying $15,000-$20,000 to go from an 80/20 custody situation to a 70/30 custody situation, hopefully...in the end that 10% is 876 more hours a year with my daughter, which is awesome, but that's a lot of money for awesome...



You are describing something for a new thread. But I feel your pain. The only winners in a divorce are the attorneys.

If your question asking for free family law attorney, then you probably should limit the search to your state and your own city, but it is highly doubtful you will get anyone for free or anywhere near free. Not to rain on your quest, but most family lawyers charge $150-$200/hour and work very slowly.

If you have to spend $15-20k for an extra 10% visitation, then that is your choice. I would recommend contacting your ex-wife and state what your intentions are and offer her $5,000 for a simple agreement that can be drawn up by a new and neutral attorney or inform her that she too will probably have to spend $15-$20k in legal fees (this also assumes that you don;t have to pay for both sides).


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## Passepartout (Apr 11, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> If your question asking for free family law attorney, then you probably should limit the search to your state and your own city, but it is highly doubtful you will get anyone for free or anywhere near free.



Ride, my family law atty DW absolutely HATES contested child custody issues and charges a fairly large rate for doing them. If a client can get her to do it at all. It isn't that they work slowly, it's that every little issue requires negotiation. THAT takes time.

If you and the ex can draw up a realistic custody settlement, with the understanding that a child needs TWO parents. One that doesn't treat the child as a hunk of property to be fought over instead of someone that needs love from both parents, you, the ex, and more importantly the child all win. And the amount paid for the custody agreement can be much smaller.

Good luck. Most solo or small firm family law attorneys are not in it to get rich.


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## PigsDad (Apr 12, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Does an Acura count as a Luxury car?



Gee, Ride, over yonder you recently posted this:


> ... After I get out of my cushy office job, Drive *my luxury car* to my upper middle class neighborhood and sit down in front of my rediculously expensive tv and computer ...



So which is it?  Or are you just blowing smoke (as usual)?

:hysterical:


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 12, 2013)

PigsDad said:


> Gee, Ride, over yonder you recently posted this:
> 
> 
> So which is it?  Or are you just blowing smoke (as usual)?
> ...



lol, that thread annoyed me, i think i was referred to a drain on society because i have faith that, once greed and jealousy are removed(money and property ownership), people left to their own devices will do what is best of society....I'm not exactly on welfare or living hand to mouth, but i don't live in a penthouse in Manhattan either.  I'm solidly middle class.


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## Beaglemom3 (Apr 12, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> You are describing something for a new thread. But I feel your pain. The only winners in a divorce are the attorneys.
> 
> If your question asking for free family law attorney, then you probably should limit the search to your state and your own city, but it is highly doubtful you will get anyone for free or anywhere near free. Not to rain on your quest, but most family lawyers charge $150-$200/hour and work very slowly.
> 
> If you have to spend $15-20k for an extra 10% visitation, then that is your choice. I would recommend contacting your ex-wife and state what your intentions are and offer her $5,000 for a simple agreement that can be drawn up by a new and neutral attorney or inform her that she too will probably have to spend $15-$20k in legal fees (this also assumes that you don;t have to pay for both sides).





  ......... and further to this, have you considered a mediator ?


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## hypnotiq (Apr 12, 2013)

I don't know about NY but in WA state, whatever was established at the beginning of the divorce process (i.e. legal separation), is what sets the baseline going forward. And unless something drastically changes on one side, the courts are unlikely to change it unless both parties agree to it.

I knew about this when I got separated, so I made sure to have my daughter 50% of the time and didn't let work or anything else get in the way of that. A couple of years after the divorce, my ex tried to get my time reduced to less than 50%.  Courts said there was no compelling reason to change the % and there is absolutely no way any mediator will get me to agree to less than 50% of the time with my daughter, so it stays the same.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, I had a friend that didn't do that. After separation he had his kids every other weekend and a day during the week. As the divorce proceeded, he tried to get more time with his kids but the courts said that the baseline had already been established and there was no compelling reason to change it. Mother won't agree to give him more time, so he's screwed.


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## SMHarman (Apr 12, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm going to end up paying $15,000-$20,000 to go from an 80/20 custody situation to a 70/30 custody situation, hopefully...in the end that 10% is 876 more hours a year with my daughter, which is awesome, but that's a lot of money for awesome...
> 
> Actually, compared to timeshares, thats a deal! A marriott ownership could cost you $20,000 and you only get 168 hours(a week) a year for it!


Actually by the time you have paid for the 'experts' to do the evaluation reports, say another $5k and the experts time being deposed and then in court. another $1-2k each time you will be spending $30-40k, as will the other side who is trying to maintain the status quo.  Judges like the status quo unless there is something egregiously wrong with it so your I'm spending this to get that is not a guarantee and the opposing party will throw in requests to delay, defer, stretch and run up the clock.

The judge will also probably force mediation and paying an retired judge for a day to try and mediate the two of you and your lawyers.  Factor in another $3-5k for the judge and mediation space and 8hrs of your lawyers hourly rate.

I'm not sure how old DD is here (if that's her in the picture she looks about 6 I guess) but you and your ex will be better off putting that money in a 529 plan.  When DD is older she will be able to make her own decisions about where to spend her time and you can be there for her then.  Those 6 years until her opinion count will fly by.

If your MSA has anything in it about you being looked to first for any additional care your better working on getting that enforced.  E.g If your ex wants to go out for the evening you, not a sitter step in.  You'll get extra time an if you can go to a judge to say she is not doing that and it is in the MSA then you can look for enforcement of an existing clause.


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## VegasBella (Apr 12, 2013)

This thread got hijacked.

Back to the OP: Some people have said that it's designed so that you can't finish in time. That is not true. I finished in time. I'm sure everyone who got high scores finished the test without guessing. That said, it IS the kind of test where you should prioritize and answer questions on the premise that you may not be able to finish in time. And you should guess answers for all questions; don't leave any question unanswered.

The LSAT is mostly logic. Strong skills in that area will show on the test. Logic skills are not related to good grades. Good grades come from doing homework, tests, working a curve by getting into other students' heads, and/or negotiating with professors. These skills will come in handy in law school but not necessarily for getting into law school. To get in, he will have to do well on the LSAT. Your son may need some specific tutoring in this area; *logic is not intuitive for most people, even very smart or well-educated people.*

And even strong logic skills can benefit from a prep course and prep work. The test is simply easier to take when you know what to expect.


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## Santina (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks for getting the thread back. I was at his college for a few days for the honors program . The very same school that honored him denied him admittance. Back to LSAT school for him!


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## Santina (Apr 13, 2013)

For their law school I mean.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 13, 2013)

Santina said:


> Thanks for getting the thread back. I was at his college for a few days for the honors program . The very same school that honored him denied him admittance. Back to LSAT school for him!



Obviously, he is a smart kid, but made one mistake in underestimating the LSAT.

Honors are given for academic performance (which he deserves) and not based on a single logic test, but the admission committee appears to weight the LSAT heavily.

I still find it incredibly ironic that criminal justice and Pre-law majors score the lowest on the LSAT and the math, physics and engineering majors do the best. I am sure some people will have strong opinions on that, but that appears to be a disconnect with the LSAT more than anything else.

What is next, will the Poetry majors will soon do better than Pre-Med students on the MCAT.

We are in a crazy competitive academic environment now where the importance on standardized testing is give more weight than anything else.

You also never mentioned how many law schools your son applied to as I am sure he can get in somewhere, but it just may not be his first or second choice.


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## VivianLynne (Apr 13, 2013)

Santina -
You sound like you are involved too much in this rejection of your son - like it is a personal attack/rejection. 

I doubt if every applicant from any university who applied to their alma matra law school can expect to get in. Honor grades or not. Law school classes are much smaller than university graduating classes - for one. That is the practical side. Almost all law schools want varied mix of backgrounds.

MY bigger LIFE question is: How are you helping him to handle this "curveball" of life? Most of my very HAPPY friends with life make something out of the "SPILLED MILK" in an early portion of their life. They adjust their "GAME PLANS" and almost everyone of them, will tell you that their life is much happier and different from what they had dreamed. And therefore, they feel their life is better.

Did you read the stories just in this thread? Not one post has your son's success in life being etched in stone on his low test score, rejected law school status or that he now HAS NO FUTURE. These posts seem to say: get up, dust yourself off, figure out your battleplan and get moving.

So end your "PITY PARTY", set some deadlines (like he starts to pay $100+ a week for room and board, gets his own car & car insurance - say June 1st), and place a foot of expereience UP HIS BUTT. That is what a parent does - and the bigger and older they are, the harder that job gets to be.

PS I live that way -- go read my thread on the Teenage Vandals and my Poconos house that started in March 2012. That was more then SPILLED MILK. About 1+ years of my life and $85,000 in expenses. And my life is still not back to normal where I work nor am I done doing paperwork for the insurance company nor have the teenagers been arrested.


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## x3 skier (Apr 13, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> I still find it incredibly ironic that criminal justice and Pre-law majors score the lowest on the LSAT and the math, physics and engineering majors do the best. I am sure some people will have strong opinions on that, but that appears to be a disconnect with the LSAT more than anything else.



I would note that those who do well on the LSAT have pursued the most demanding undergraduate programs. As noted before, the LSAT examines logical thinking and problem solving which are the foundation of math, engineering and physics so its pretty obvious to me why they score the highest. OTOH, the difference in scores is not huge (160-146) but apparently something the admissions departments weight heavily for whatever reason. Since it is relatively easy to obtain a high GPA in say, Art History compared to Chemical Engineering, I guess they use the LSAT as a measure of the rigor of the training as an undergraduate.

That said, I again am perplexed why anyone would wish to spend enormous amounts of money to study law in today's level of opportunities for lawyers unless horrors, they wish to become a politician later.

Cheers


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 13, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> I would note that those who do well on the LSAT have pursued the most demanding undergraduate programs.
> 
> That said, I again am perplexed why anyone would wish to spend enormous amounts of money to study law in today's level of opportunities for lawyers unless horrors, they wish to become a politician later.



I have no doubt that engineer major and physic majors are harder than a pre-law major and I am pretty sure pre-Law is harder than a physical education or basket weaving major, but I guarantee that a pre-Law student will do horrible on the "SEAT" that is the Special Engineering Admission Test (I actually made that up), so why do they do the worst on the LSAT?

It appears that the pre-law students, which by definition are the students that want to go to law school, are doing the worst on the LSAT, so either the LSAT is some bizarre test that is really not a true indicator for students preparing for law school or the undergraduate schools are not doing a good job of education the pre-law majors. Perhaps the universities should do a better job of preparing their students to score better on the LSAT to actually complete the pre-law major.

Finally, law is still a great profession for many people. I know several attorneys that make more than $250k per year and it is the only profession that I know of where someone can actually make money while sitting on a toilet and responding to e-mail on their iPads. Sorry for that graphic description, but one of my good friends is an attorney and told me he regularly does that during his morning constitution.


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## bogey21 (Apr 13, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> That said, I again am perplexed why anyone would wish to spend enormous amounts of money to study law in today's level of opportunities for lawyers....



One doesn't necessarily have to want to be a lawyer to go to Law School.  I graduated with a major in Finance and a minor in Accounting and felt that the one undergraduate course I took in Business Law wasn't adequate for my pending Business career.  So I went to Law School for 3 semesters at night, a total of 6 courses.  Looking back, it was one of my best decisions.  Why?  In business you deal with lawyers all the time and the closer you get to understanding where lawyers are coming from and the issues you are dealing with the better off you are.

George


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## x3 skier (Apr 13, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> Finally, law is still a great profession for many people. I know several attorneys that make more than $250k per year and it is the only profession that I know of where someone can actually make money while sitting on a toilet and responding to e-mail on their iPads. Sorry for that graphic description, but one of my good friends is an attorney and told me he regularly does that during his morning constitution.



I also have used the same opportunity to make money as an Engineering Consultant while so engaged. In fact, I also made money sitting in my PJ's drinking iced tea on my porch or in the lounge Apres Ski both while reviewing a report on my iPad. 

For every attorney making 250K a year, there are probably hundreds making 60K just like for every engineering consultant making 250K there are hundreds of engineers making 75-100K. 

The law is a fine profession but today there are many more lawyers than good paying lawyering jobs. All I know is what I read in the Wall Street Journal. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Apr 13, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> One doesn't necessarily have to want to be a lawyer to go to Law School.  I graduated with a major in Finance and a minor in Accounting and felt that the one undergraduate course I took in Business Law wasn't adequate for my pending Business career.  So I went to Law School for 3 semesters at night, a total of 6 courses.  Looking back, it was one of my best decisions.  Why?  In business you deal with lawyers all the time and the closer you get to understanding where lawyers are coming from and the issues you are dealing with the better off you are.
> 
> George



Six courses at night school is a little different than three years at a Tier One Law School like Yale, Harvard, Stanford @ 50K a year in tuition alone. 

I also took some extra law courses while an undergrad as well as grad school for general info that served me well but they were ancillary to the main courses in business and engineering. Still well worth it though.

Cheers


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## VivianLynne (Apr 13, 2013)

My brother is a lawyer. He barely scrapes by - his health insurance is thru his wife's job and he did his undergraduate work in Civil engineering (the school with all the Ivy in New Jersey). He has argued in front of the US Supreme Court, defended a murdering bank robber who killed 5 of his friends, has run a county public defenders' office for 12+ years (until he finished the bank robbery trial), gets Federal & state court conflict defendant representation appointments, and has applied for 100+ jobs in the past 10-12 years. 

Us siblings worry about him. He is over 60, but not old enough to get retirement anything - like if he had any retirement savings left.


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## bogey21 (Apr 13, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> Six courses at night school is a little different than three years at a Tier One Law School like Yale, Harvard, Stanford @ 50K a year in tuition alone.



Sure it is.  But if one has no intention to becoming a lawyer and just wants to supplement a BA in Finance, IMO taking some courses in Law School is worthwhile.  I would say this served me well throughout my career in business.  My point is that there are reasons to attend Law School other than becoming a lawyer.

George


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## Beaglemom3 (Apr 13, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> Sure it is.  But if one has no intention to becoming a lawyer and just wants to supplement a BA in Finance, IMO taking some courses in Law School is worthwhile.  I would say this served me well throughout my career in business.  My point is that there are reasons to attend Law School other than becoming a lawyer.
> 
> George






  Agree with this whole heartedly. Also, a true love of the law and the desire to study & understand it is another reason.


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## glypnirsgirl (Apr 13, 2013)

Because he has worked in a law office, I feel that he knows what he is signing up for --- has he asked those lawyers what they look for in making hiring decisions? Does he know what type of practice that he wants?

And I would second Linda's point about trial schools - they are not the same as the tier one schools. Tier One schools have a tendency to be more transaction oriented (contracts, real estate, mergers and acquisitions, etc.) rather then trial oriented.

Here in Texas, there is only one top tier school: The University of Texas. But UT does not produce the best trial attorneys, Baylor Law does. The Baylor Law article  also lists application strategy and the range of grades v. LSATs.

And here is the rankings of law school with their tuition rates. Outside of the top 10 law schools, most tuition ranges between 28K and 40K year for tuition. It does not include room and board.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 13, 2013)

*Yes, Stetson is #1 in its Trial Advocacy Program in the USA*

and Stetson University is #5 in National Ranking for Best Legal Writing Program.

according to the 2013 US News & World Reports ....

3 Rankings and this school is on TOP of one of the rankings and tied for #5 on a second.

And I only went to Stetson U as an undergraduate ... Go Hatters!


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 13, 2013)

glypnirsgirl said:


> ..And I would second Linda's point about trial schools - they are not the same as the tier one schools. Tier One schools have a tendency to be more transaction oriented (contracts, real estate, mergers and acquisitions, etc.) rather then trial oriented...



Thanks, Elaine! 

Applications are still being taken at Stetson Law school until May 15, 2013!


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## siesta (Apr 14, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> OTOH, the difference in scores is not huge (160-146) but apparently something the admissions departments weight heavily for whatever reason.


A score of 160 places you in about the 83 percentile, a score of 146 places you in the 32 percentile.  there is an incredibly HUGE difference between 160 and 146.

You are probably thinking 160/180= 88% and 146/180 = 81%. so must not be a big difference.

This is not how it works.

Again, the LSAT means more in the admissions process than grades.  The rationale is, anyone can get good grades if they work hard enough. But not everyone can do well on the lsat, including people with good grades and even those who work hard at preparing for the lsat. There are also many factors in how to weigh one kids 4.0 against anothers 4.0, like What school you went to, the difficulty of your major, the types of electives you took. 

The lsat on the other hand, everyone takes the same caliber test, and is compared against eachother, its not subjective.  In fact, if you look at decades of lsat bell curves, they will nearly be identical, every lsat is specifically designed to be as hard as the previous years and so on.  If there is a question that a number of kids got wrong and it deviated from the standard curve thats been established by decades of tests, it is stricken from the test competely for everyone, whether you got it right or wrong.

Here is a LSAT percentile chart to give you an idea:

http://www.testprep-online.com/lsatpercentilechart.aspx

Here is how to compute a raw score into a lsat score:

http://www.lsac.org/jd/lsat/prep/freesampletest/computingyourscore.html

Lsat is a 101 questions, and an ungraded writing sample.  A 160 means you got about 78 questions right, a 146 means you got about 52 questions right.  That means a person with a 160 got 50% more questions right than a person with a 146.  See how big of a difference that is.


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## pianodinosaur (Apr 14, 2013)

There are many physicians who hate being physicians.  there are also many lawyers who hate being lawyers.  Graduating from a professional school does not guarantee financial success or personal fulfillment.  

However, if one truly loves the law and wants to serve his community, there are many careers other than being an attorney that may be pursued.  Your son might find them more satisfying than being an attorney.  I know many law school graduates who now work as accountants.  It is amazing how much law you have to understand to be a police officer.  I never understood what real estate agents and contractors had to deal with until I built my office building.

BTW, you can make a great deal more money as a real estate agent, contractor, or plumber than most attorneys these days.


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## siesta (Apr 14, 2013)

pianodinosaur said:


> BTW, you can make a great deal more money as a real estate agent, contractor, or plumber than most attorneys these days.


 where are you getting your information from?

The average salary of an attorney in Chicago is $143,000.  That is significantly more than the average real estate agent, contractor, or plumber. The same goes for Pittsburgh and Philadelphia as the OP is from PA, they are both over $140k as well.

People ought to do a little research before they make unfounded blanket statements.

http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/what_americas_lawyers_earn/

If you scroll down, you will see a map of the US and what lawyers earn around the country, as well as the top 35 cities where lawyers earn the most.

*I will bet the farm, that in most cities a plumber, real estate agent, or contractor's average salary is NOT higher than an attorneys average salary in that city.*


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 14, 2013)

siesta said:


> Again, the LSAT means more in the admissions process than grades.  The rationale is, anyone can get good grades if they work hard enough. But not everyone can do well on the lsat, including people with good grades and even those who work hard at preparing for the lsat.



This is a stupid rationale.

Seriously, I would rather go to an attorney that has a 4 year history of doing well in undergrad school and is serious student rather than someone that can get lucky on a non-law based single day logic exam.

Perhaps this is what is wrong with the law profession, they have weeded out too many good candidates with a meaningless test and rewarded those that did well with an admission ticket.

What next, will the educational institutions test how well you can juggle three balls with one eye closed to determine who will gain entrance to law school or medical school.

I wonder if other countries base so much weight on these obscure tests.


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## x3 skier (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> This is a stupid rationale.
> 
> Seriously, I would rather go to an attorney that has a 4 year history of doing well in undergrad school and is serious student rather than someone that can get lucky on a non-law based single day logic exam.
> 
> ...



Hear hear. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Apr 14, 2013)

siesta said:


> where are you getting your information from?
> 
> The average salary of an attorney in Chicago is $143,000.  That is significantly more than the average real estate agent, contractor, or plumber. The same goes for Pittsburgh and Philadelphia as the OP is from PA, they are both over $140k as well.
> 
> ...



From the article cited: 

"And because they represent *payroll data*, they don't include equity partners or solos. But they do represent the best estimates we can glean from the most current BLS data as of mid-2009."

Or those Recent graduates who did not pursue a law career after graduation (45% recently according to Forbes, see below) and are working in another field, I assume. 

Form the NALP about recent hires:

"Entry-Level and Lateral Hiring — On the Road to Recovery? (NALP Bulletin, March 2011) — Just how much did the number of entry-level associates starting work in law firms in 2009 decline? New research from NALP suggests that, after holding relatively steady from 2007 to 2008, the volume of entry-level associates starting work in 2009 plunged by an estimated 40%. Meanwhile, the decline in lateral hiring started even earlier, with the volume dropping off by an estimated one-quarter in 2008 compared with 2007, and falling by an estimated 46% from 2008 to 2009."

http://www.nalp.org/entry-levelhiring

So if you make the cut to get into school, graduate, manage to get hired, manage to survive in a large firm, you can make good money, at least in 2009. 

From a more recent article from Forbes:

"The news for would-be attorneys keeps getting worse. According to analysis from the Wall Street Journal released yesterday, only 55% of class of 2011 law school grads were employed full-time as lawyers nine months after graduation. The other 45% may be unemployed, working at Starbucks or starting their own law school hate blogs. Couple this with declining starting salaries (they fell $9000 between 2009 and 2010) and the fact that 85% of law school grads are facing an average debt load of $98 500 and you can see why law school as a career path has taken a public lambasting in recent years."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmauree...is-the-worst-career-decision-youll-ever-make/

If someone wishes to pursue a carrier in the law, go for it. Just realize there are other choices available. 

Just considering the risk vs reward for a career, a plumber is a better bet in today's market for lawyers.  

Cheers


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## LisaH (Apr 14, 2013)

It's a combination of your LSAT Score and GPA. It's almost impossible to score high just because your are lucky. My son (who is math/physics major) scored 162 but his GPA was just average (3.4?). He decided not to apply for law school and took a job in the financial sector instead. He may still consider going to law school in the future but he would retake the LSAT before applying. To spend that much money for law school and give up a nice paying job, it just does not make sense to him if he could not get into a top 25 school (a lot actually aim for top 14).


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## siesta (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> This is a stupid rationale.
> 
> Seriously, I would rather go to an attorney that has a 4 year history of doing well in undergrad school and is serious student rather than someone that can get lucky on a non-law based single day logic exam.
> 
> ...


 you obviously grossly misunderstood.  Just because the lsat is weighed more heavily, doesnt mean gpa isnt a factor.  In fact, for the top schools you need both.  But if deciding between a person with a slightly higher gpa or a slightly higher lsat score, considering all else is relative, they will take the higher lsat score. Its. Better tool to differentiate between students, gpa is too subjective and dependent on many other factors as i previously pointed out.

And for your notion about youd rather have an attorney that did welll in undergrad instead of getting lucky on the lsat.  There may be people that got a higher score due to luck,  but without work ethic, youd never survive the beast that is law school.  I could care less if someone slacked in undergrad and had a good time, managed to get into law school because he was a good test taker, then worked tremendously hard to graduate and worked even harder to pass the bar.  I really wouldnt care what they got in their astronomy class when they were 20.

As to x3skier, you took my post about current practicing attorneys (which was a direct response to a previous poster talking about current salaries) and made it about current grads looking for work (and not surprisngly ignored my post pointing out you having no clue what youre talking about regarding the lsat) Sure, it used to be kids had secured jobs before they even graduated and took the bar.  Now, about half of the kids are employed 9 months after grad, but consider they dont even take the bar for months after grad, and anywhere from 10-25 percent dont pass and couldnt work as an attorney yet regardless if a job was waiting for them.  Also, those figures often dont include solo practioners. Its true though, the job market is tougher, thats true with many industries. *Did you know more than half of college graduates lack full time work within 12 months of graduation? And even a larger percentage of the ones that are working are in a field unrelated to their degree? 43% of those that are employed are in a position that doesnt even require a college degree?* This is not a unique phenomena for the legal market.

It also depends where you go to school, looking at the current data for my law school, over 90% were employed at graduation, with a median private sector starting salary of $160,000

Also consider when you are looking at attorneys average salaries, there are many that work in the public sector, such as government jobs and public service positions to help those less fortunate, these bring down the averages.  These are people that arent doing it for the money, and believe me, a prosecutor or public defender can transition to the private sector and make a bundle with his experience.

My mentor after graduation went to a tier 4 school, worked as a federal prosecutor for nearly a decade, now does white collar criminal defense among other things.  His rate is $1200 an hour, and he recently had a case where his retainer was over $3 million. 

Also, in Chicago, there are many judges on the bench froma reputable tier 4 school in the area, in fact they produce the most judges in the city.

My advice to somene going to a tier 3 or tier 4 school, is go where you want to practice, so you can network. Because doors wont open themselves for you like when your in a tier 1 school, or a t14 school.

Also, even if I got paid less then a plumber, I wouldnt go back and change anything.  The feeling of someone putting their life in your hands, and the rewarding feeling of making a difference for that client, whether it be keeping them out of jail, preventing financial ruin, or even fightingi for their right to see their kids, etc. is worth more then the paycheck, that of course is my opinion.

Also, all you law and order watchers, and people that "know a guy" or "have a brother" thats an attorney, or read an article on forbes about the legal market, really need to take it easy with your "advice." You havent graduated law school, you havent taken the bar, you have no idea what it takes to get a job, and you have no idea what its like to be an attorney.  And thats precisely why you pay us the big bucks and pray we save your behind when you need us.  I would say your advice isnt worth the paper its printed on, but we are in the digital age. That is all, over and out.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 14, 2013)

siesta said:


> It also depends where you go to school, looking at the current data for my law school, over 90% were employed at graduation, with a median private sector starting salary at $160,000
> 
> My mentor after graduation went to a tier 4 school, worked as a federal prosecutor for nearly a decade, now does white collar criminal defense among other things.  His rate is $1200 an hour, and he recently had a case where his retainer was over $3 million.
> 
> ...



According to your post above, it appears that going to law school (even a tier 3 or 4) is still a pretty good option for many people (much better than a manager at McDonalds as some ignorant "Bum" posters have stated on TUG)

Getting back to the OP, I am pretty sure that their son can get into a law school (even right now) for the fall and perhaps they either need to restudy for the LSAT so they can get into the law school of their choice or simply go to a less impressive school NOW.

The OP never stated how many law school their son applied to, only that they were not accepted into the law school where they are currently a student in the undergrad school.

Either way, good luck and I am happy that some tier 3 and tier 4 law school graduates can do better than some tier 1 grads.

Also, I would love to make $1,200 per hour as an attorney.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> According to your post above, it appears that going to law school (even a tier 3 or 4) is still a pretty good option for many people (much better than a manager at McDonalds as some ignorant "Bum" posters have stated on TUG)
> 
> Getting back to the OP, I am pretty sure that their son can get into a law school (even right now) for the fall and perhaps they either need to restudy for the LSAT so they can get into the law school of their choice or simply go to a less impressive school NOW.
> 
> ...



You really seem to have trouble understanding complex subjects such as this one.

The comparison of a McDonald's manager to a newly minted law school graduate is an economic trade off, not a value judgement.  If a person wants to work in a McDonald's, I have no problem with that.  Food services is an expanding industry.  Legal services is a shrinking one.   I believe and stated that people should do whatever they love.   They should go into any industry they want as long as they have the correct perspective on the field in which they pursue.

From a purely economic standpoint, which is what I stated, a McDonald's manager requires a GED or high school diploma and some work experience which they could get in high school.  An attorney that does not get one of the top $160k starting salaries is in the job market for the mean income of $45k-65k with a 56% probability.  That's what the stats say.  The cost to get that job is 4 years undergrad and 3 years of law school.   You seem to misunderstand that there are relative costs for each profession that need to be included into the apples to apples comparison of a career in law vs. an alternate career like in food services.

So, let's compare the relative economics of a McDonald's manager with 7 years of experience after high school and a newly minted attorney who attends a private 4 year University and 3 years of law school.   Right now, a private University is around $250k.  Law school is around another $180k.   If the attorney does not get into a top tier law firm getting one of the primo $160k starting salaries, they are on the $45-65k starting salary curve.  

The McDonald's manager works for 7 years, learns the ins and outs of the food services business and has saved around $430k by not attending a University.   They can take that $430k and invest it into a McDonald's franchise with sales of roughly $2.2M and a net operating profit of $176,000 per year.   All it takes is a desire to make money, hard work and the discipline of running a franchise.

Neither a legal job, nor running a McDonald's franchise is something that I would want to do. But, if I had to choose now with eyes open a career in food services vs a legal career that comes out of a non-Tier 1 firm, I would choose food services.  I would probably choose better than McDonald's, too.  I would probably choose 5 guys or a restaurant like Chipotle Mexican Grill (I think they are only company owed now, though).

Probably the biggest reason why I would not want to be a non tier 1 attorney is that if I am paid for my time, I only have 168 hours max that I can bill every week whereas in food services,  I could own more than one franchise and expand my earning capacity.  Sure, partners get more.  I'd have to be pretty confident about building a legal practice to assume that I would make partner, especially in one of the top firms.

For me, the opportunity cost of 7 years of higher education must yield a much higher career earnings curve that the one presented by a tier 2-4 law school.   

Contrast that with a software engineer whose starting salaries average around $75k and requires only a 4 year degree with lots of jobs.  Plus there is as much upside in start ups as attorney's have by becoming partners in law firms.  Or course, not everyone has the personality of skills to become either a food services franchise owner, an attorney or a software engineer.  However, I doubt a lot of people perform the economic analysis I just did to determine whether or not a college or professional education is worth it.  Those are the ones who blindly believe that an education at any cost is worth it.  It's not and I can prove it empirically.

Again, people can choose whatever they love.  I am fine with any field people choose that does not result in government subsidies meaning they are able to be valuable and productive citizens in the modern economy without increasing taxes on other productive citizens who are able to carry their own weight economically.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 14, 2013)

One more thing.  In previous posts, I said that as a consumer of legal services or medical services, I care more about the experience of the person than the brand on their degree.  I stand by that comment.

I just retained an attorney this week to help me with a legal issue.  The retainer is $250 per hour.  I did not once ask where she got her law degree.  Instead, I got a referral from another attorney with whom I have successfully worked and after an initial consult and review of the experience of this attorney and discussion of the strategy for a case, I asked for a retainer agreement.

Don't confuse an attorney who is supplying services to a law firm with a consumer that is in the market for hiring an attorney.  I am no longer in a company that requires the services of an Amlaw 200 law firm.  I don't want or need to pay for legal services at $1000 per hour or more.  That would be overkill for the jobs I have for them to do at this time.   However, if I were an attorney, I would not want the job of that person earning $250 per hour.  The opportunity cost for me to attend law school would only pay off if I could achieve one of those tier 1 jobs.  I don't think I could get admitted into a tier 1 law school, so the point is moot.


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## elaine (Apr 14, 2013)

re. LSAT. He needs to retake the LSAT and at least get a good test booklet. I liked Kaplan 25 years ago. Kaplan is good b/c it gives you the reasons why the wrong answers are wrong. Also, he should practice timed tests many times. Someone with good grades can absolutely improve their score with the RIGHT type of preparation. The LSAT is all about logic games/formulas (think of a cookie recipe that you can add variations to--ginger, choc chips, almonds, etc.)--figure out how to quickly devise the formula/recipe and you can easily do many questions quicker, which gives more time to think about other questions--as it is a time crunch.
Also, from cost/benefit, IMHO, I would not go to a 3rd/4th tier law school. There is too much competition and it is very difficult to get a legal job in the current economy, esp. from lower tier schools. He would be better to work for a year--or intern someplace, study and do practice LSAT tests and reapply for the next year with  hopes of getting into higher ranking schools. 
I also agree with PP. If he does go to 3/4 tier law school, it should be in an area where he wants to work--and he should start networking, interning, clerking for summers in that location to have a decent chance at getting a job. I not go to 3/4 tier in state A looking to work in state Z after graduation. good luck. Elaine


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 14, 2013)

For completeness, my final comments will be in relation to other majors such as art history or language arts which have been the subject of my previous posts.   If you attend a private University such as Harvard at a cost of $250k and you pursue such a major, you are not doing it as an investment.  You do it as a luxury purchase.   Again, if someone has $250k burning a hole in their bank account and they can afford a luxury purchase of $250k, I have no problem with it.   It would be like making a choice between a college education or a Bentley.  Such majors are the economic equivalent unless they can directly lead to a career with a definable salary curve.

The part that I am not in favor of is when that $250k education is subsidized by my tax dollars.   No matter how good or bad the salary curve is for attorneys, at least there is a salary curve that is directly related to law school.

I am very cynical about the current University system and our current public education system.  I do not believe it is focused on the proper education of our children to be productive citizens in a 21st century economy.   My direction to my kids is go to school to find your passion.  That is my gift to you.  If you choose to make it a luxury education in a liberal arts field, I am okay with that.  If you want to pursue a professional career, I am okay with that, too.   I say that knowing that at the end of the day, they can come home and I can teach them how to start and run a business. They don't need to go to college to learn that.  I can give that to them now.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 14, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> The part that I am not in favor of is when that $250k education is subsidized by my tax dollars.   No matter how good or bad the salary curve is for attorneys, at least there is a salary curve that is directly related to law school.
> 
> I am very cynical about the current University system and our current public education system.  I do not believe it is focused on the proper education of our children to be productive citizens in a 21st century economy.



Although I find some of your rhetoric extremely dogmatic, narrow-minded, and even incredulous, the above statement is something you and I can finally agree on.

It seems to me that most high school graduates (and many college graduates) significantly lack real-world skills that they can use to actually create value with their employment.


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## x3 skier (Apr 14, 2013)

Now the siesta has retired "That is all, over and out." from the discussion, perhaps we might get back to the OP question / comments. 

My postings have mostly been concerning the cost and *current* outlook for employment in the field. The articles I posted do not paint a rosy picture. In fact, most non "technical or professional" courses of study are equally problematic. However any course of study except medicine probably does not require as large an expenditure in time and treasure as a top tier law school. 

There is an opportunity cost for spending three years in law school in both time and money that should be a factor. If in the end, the decision is to attend, fantastic. OTOH, there are choices that require less time and money that can be equally rewarding both professionally and personally. 

 I have been fortunate to have three very successful careers and each one was quite different. I examined each, weighed the pros and cons and plunged ahead. 

Good luck in whatever choice is made and all the best to the OP and the family. 

Cheers


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## Clemson Fan (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> Although I find some of your rhetoric extremely dogmatic, narrow-minded, and even incredulous



Funny because I actually find Boca's posts to be open minded, well thought out and non-dogmatic.

I'll buy the incredulous part, though.


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## Clemson Fan (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> I still find it incredibly ironic that criminal justice and Pre-law majors score the lowest on the LSAT and the math, physics and engineering majors do the best. I am sure some people will have strong opinions on that, but that appears to be a disconnect with the LSAT more than anything else.
> 
> What is next, will the Poetry majors will soon do better than Pre-Med students on the MCAT.



Some do.  My undergraduate degree is in engineering and I didn't decide I wanted to try and go to medical school until I was doing an externship at one of our national labs and realized I wanted more human contact with what I did as a career.  There is really no "pre-med" or "pre-law" undergraduate degree or major.  There are basic course requirements that can be obtained with a wide variety of degrees.  That's why there's a need for standardized tests because that's what they are - standardized.  It's really the fairest comparison of applicants that come from a very broad range of undergraduate degrees and majors.

For me, the only thing I needed to add on to my engineering degree was Biology 101&102 which I did during my junior and senior years.  I then took the MCAT and got into a top 10 medical school.  I loved my medical school class which was so diverse and interesting.  One of my classmates was a former professional ballet dancer in NYC.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 14, 2013)

How many kids really know what they want to be at age 12 or 13 when they pick their high school courses - esp a S.T.E.M. track?

I picked a major because some of my best classes where in math. But as a female, almost everyone said my career would be in teaching Math. Dang, I did not relate as a 13-16yo to teenagers - why did anyone think I wanted to be around them when I was 20+ years old.

In college I discovered computers and accounting. Was good at both of them, but after working 12+ years doing MIS work - I realized the interior office buildings were killing me. And that was before the term "sick buildings" existed. All I knew is, going out to lunch or walking between meetings outside, was the best part of my day. I felt alive. I was not yarning and nodding off to sleep like I was at my desk. I would start yarning when I came off the elevators INTO work at 8AM.

And that is how I got into doing construction. And that is why my 2 youngest sisters are both mechnical engineers - magna cum laude from Duke and cum laude from Lehigh. Engineering was not an option for 17 year old girls when I was in high school.

Perhaps your son would benefit from doing some career evaluation testing and a session or two to explain what the testing pointed to. He would not be the first person to realize he might *LOVE* something totally different.


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## skim118 (Apr 16, 2013)

OP : I understand your feelings of rejection from Temple, your son's current school. Trust me that is the best gift Temple could have given him and I wish he does not get into any of the schools that have waitlisted him.

The Legal job market is nothing like what it used to be & Job prospects are fairly bleak for graduates from Tier 2/3/4 schools.  In fact things are not too great even for those in the 50 schools that comprise Tier 1, especially those are not above the median GPA in their first year of Law School.

My suggestion is to retake LSAT again(allowed 3 attempts and most schools take the top score) and take prep classes from Powerscore or Testmasters.  His GPA is good enough for all T14 schools; so if he can get raise his LSAT scores even in 160s, which I am sure he will (he can somewhat predict his score once he takes 25-30 timed practice tests), he can even apply to Tier 1 schools.

Once he clears the LSAT 160 threshold, there are some schools that accept "splitters" like your son with high GPA like GWU, Virginia and many others especially when applying to binding Early Decision process.

Reduce the total cost of attendance and keep the loans under 100-150K upon graduation; otherwise buying a home in the future will be a distant dream, unless you hit the "biglaw" jackpot.

Not many know starting 2012-2013 academic year, even the best Federal loans given to Graduate students is at a whopping 7.9% & has a special "twisted gift" from Congress; the interest starts accruing the minute you take it !!  NYU's cost of attendance for most students involves mainly loans; so what used to be $75K/yr times 3 is now amounting to $260K upon graduation due to the accrued interest.


off topic: it makes no sense to me to let people walk out of homes with 4-5% mortgages with impunity, whereas we are debt slaving our younger generation with 7.9% loans that stays with them forever !!


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## bogey21 (Apr 16, 2013)

Avoid loans.  Read Sarah Palin's book.  Actually I'm not kidding.  My recollection is that she earned enough to get started in college.  Then whenever the money ran out she would drop out of school for a semester, earn enough to cover the next semester's expenses, then re-enroll.  Note that this has nothing to do with her politics.  Rather it reflects and alternative approach to paying for one's education.

George


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## heathpack (Apr 16, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> Avoid loans.  Read Sarah Palin's book.  Actually I'm not kidding.  My recollection is that she earned enough to get started in college.  Then whenever the money ran out she would drop out of school for a semester, earn enough to cover the next semester's expenses, then re-enroll.  Note that this has nothing to do with her politics.  Rather it reflects and alternative approach to paying for one's education.
> 
> George



Avoiding loans is not the answer.  Obtaining loans (if necessary) that are not excessive is a perfectly reasonable strategy- possibly the best strategy for most students.  The key is to have some idea of your earning potential and to keep your total debt to a sane amount.  I didnt go to my first choice undergraduate school because my second choice school offered a full tuition scholarship.  I turned down first choice (expensive) veterinary college in favor of secobd choice (affordable) veterinary college.

Honestly these days it seems like it is out of fashion to be reasonable and balance numerous factors.  Instead of "I better make a decision as to where to go to school based on what I can afford," the modern thinking is "I'm going the school I want (nevermind that I can't afford it)". Again, this is not about OPs son, just about society in general.

Seriously my entire 8 1/2 year undergraduate + professional education left me $30,500 in debt (20 years ago, admittedly). I didn't think I could afford much more than that and I planned accordingly.

H


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## Passepartout (Apr 16, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Seriously my entire 8 1/2 year undergraduate + professional education left me $30,500 in debt (20 years ago, admittedly).



So in your considered opinion, how much would the same 8 1/2 years cost today?

Jim


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## heathpack (Apr 16, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> So in your considered opinion, how much would the same 8 1/2 years cost today?
> 
> Jim



I would guess about $55,000.

H


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## skim118 (Apr 16, 2013)

heathpack said:


> I would guess about $55,000.
> 
> H



Sorry you have no clue.  

Like I mentioned before Graduate loans now accrue interest from the day you borrow; we have 3 kids in Undergraduate & Law school and we estimate it will  be a battle to keep the loans under $100,000 for each of them(including Grad school)

BTW state schools in CA went from $21,000/year when our first kid started to $29,000/year in 5 years span.


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## x3 skier (Apr 16, 2013)

On the subject of undergraduate education, a good alternative to loans for undergrad study is a Co-Op program where you alternate school and work. At the University of Cincinnati it's the only way you can study engineering. It's offered at many schools in many fields. At UC, you have assignments in your field of study that allows you to earn a decent amount of money. 

As heathpack says "Honestly these days it seems like it is out of fashion to be reasonable and balance numerous factors. Instead of "I better make a decision as to where to go to school based on what I can afford," the modern thinking is "I'm going the school I want (nevermind that I can't afford it)". Again, this is not about OPs son, just about society in general."

I graduated with no money and no debt since I picked a good school that allowed me to do that rather than picking one neither I or my family could afford. 

Cheers


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 16, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> On the subject of undergraduate education, a good alternative to loans for undergrad study is a Co-Op program where you alternate school and work. At the University of Cincinnati it's the only way you can study engineering. It's offered at many schools in many fields. At UC, you have assignments in your field of study that allows you to earn a decent amount of money.
> ...



Drexel University in Philadelphia also has a VERY strong engineering co-op work study program.


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## heathpack (Apr 16, 2013)

skim118 said:


> Sorry you have no clue.
> 
> Like I mentioned before Graduate loans now accrue interest from the day you borrow; we have 3 kids in Undergraduate & Law school and we estimate it will  be a battle to keep the loans under $100,000 for each of them(including Grad school)
> 
> BTW state schools in CA went from $21,000/year when our first kid started to $29,000/year in 5 years span.



So is your answer that you would recommend that your children borrow an unsustainable amount?  The point that I have made previously is that it may not make economic sense to become a veterinarian.  And if it doesn't, you shouldn't.

At my alma mater, when I went to school Stafford Loans covered tuition plus about $2500/year in living expenses.  So you are right, I have no clue.  If we look at current tuition and add a proportional amount of Stafford loan towards living expenses, a student for the same education today would need to borrow $96,000.  That is a semi-reasonable number given potential earnings for a veterinarian (depending on whether there is also undergraduate debt) but I would suggest that if those same tuition dollars would be more cost effectively spent on another career, it would be wise to consider that option.

You sound like you are doing your kids a favor in trying to help them keep total amount borrowed down, but I don't know that this parenting trait is all that common any more.  I work all the time with veterinary students and recent grads-dozens per year.  Many of them have unsustainable amounts of debt (having gone to expensive vet schools) and no responsible adult seems to have counseled these kids at all.  They don't know how much they can expect to earn or how they'll pay the $ back.

H


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## am1 (Apr 16, 2013)

I graduated undergrad and grad school debt free.  I worked before university, during the semesters and during the summers.  Also ran 70 miles weeks during that time.  

I did not go to a great school but one that I could manage on my own.  

Before university I had no attachment to a particular university.  

I am very happy what I chose and hope others are as well.  

I do think university costs should be lowered.  Not sure if the universities, government or people just saying enough is enough is the answer.


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## bogey21 (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't know why more kids don't join the military for the GI Bill.  It is a way lot more lucrative than it used to be.  I think my Son got something like full tuition (at a State University) , a book allowance and $1,500 per month toward living expenses.  Not only did he get the GI Bill but he was a far more focused student after his time in the Marine Corps than before he went in.

George


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 17, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> I don't know why more kids don't join the military for the GI Bill.



How about the fact that we are still at WAR and that is a major deterrent.


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 17, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> I don't know why more kids don't join the military for the GI Bill.  It is a way lot more lucrative than it used to be.  I think my Son got something like full tuition (at a State University) , a book allowance and $1,500 per month toward living expenses.  Not only did he get the GI Bill but he was a far more focused student after his time in the Marine Corps than before he went in.
> 
> George



The military doesn't get the respect it used to....We haven't had a war since the 1940's and because of that people really question if they want to be involved with the quasi-legal/quasi-ethical things the military commanders are ordering kids to do



DazedandConfused said:


> How about the fact that we are still at WAR and that is a major deterrent.



An invasion isn't a war


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## ricoba (Apr 17, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> The military doesn't get the respect it used to....



I don't think you are probably old enough to remember the disrespect our returning boys got when they came home from Vietnam.  There was open contempt and hatred displayed to these men and women and that will always be a blight on our history.  Our troops receive far more respect now than they did then.


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## bogey21 (Apr 17, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> How about the fact that we are still at WAR and that is a major deterrent.



It didn't deter my Father who enlisted during WW II, or me who volunteered for the draft in the middle of the Korean War, or my Brother who enlisted during the War in Viet Nam, or my Son who recently spent 8 years in the Marines.  IMO those who are able but unwilling to participate are riding the coat tails of those who serve.  Maybe no one should become a policeman, a fireman or a border control agent either.

George


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 17, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> It didn't deter my Father who enlisted during WW II, or me who volunteered for the draft in the middle of the Korean War, or my Brother who enlisted during the War in Viet Nam, or my Son who recently spent 8 years in the Marines.  IMO those who are able but unwilling to participate are riding the coat tails of those who serve.  Maybe no one should become a policeman, a fireman or a border control agent either.
> 
> George



Some people disagree with the morality of the invasions, they don't fear the fight, they just aren't sure they would be fighting on the right side. With the border control and Firefighters, it is very apparent you are doing the right thing.

During WWII and the Korean War, there was no question who was the right side, we were defending our rights on foreign soil, WWII wasn't just our rights, but we were fighting to keep America, america too!


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## Passepartout (Apr 17, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> It didn't deter my Father who enlisted during WW II, or me who volunteered for the draft in the middle of the Korean War, or my Brother who enlisted during the War in Viet Nam, or my Son who recently spent 8 years in the Marines.  IMO those who are able but unwilling to participate are riding the coat tails of those who serve.  Maybe no one should become a policeman, a fireman or a border control agent either.
> 
> George



George, during WWII, the entire country was behind the war effort. We had been in the Great Depression, and like it or not, WWII brought the country out of it. The G.I. Bill provided the for the biggest expansion of education in history. More people went to college than ever, and that fueled 40 or more years of economic prosperity for the country.

Then after the (still) ongoing Korean Conflict, the Cold War, and Viet Nam where the USA was considered the 'Policeman' of the world to less respect for those who served. The end of the draft made military service seem 'optional.' Less young people saw service as a viable pathway to a successful life.

There has been a bump in participation of people in the military, but still, it amounts to about 1% of the population- compared to nearly complete participation during WWII. To most people, war is 'out there' somewhere. To be fought by somebody else. We give them lip service- "Thank you for your service", but when we are asked to increase funds for the G.I. Bill, or to give 'Veteran's Preference' for scarce jobs, we look away.

As a Viet Nam veteran, who was subject to the abuse first hand, the taunts of 'baby killer', the being refused seating in restaurants, while those who got their deferments got the good jobs, took the girls we left behind and got a several year head start up the economic ladder, I AM bitter.

This has nothing to do with the OP bemoaning the fact that his seemingly deserving son couldn't qualify for law school at HIS Alma Mater, but is more a symptom of the direction the country is going.

Soap box mode: Off.

Jim


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 17, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> As a Viet Nam veteran, who was subject to the abuse first hand, the taunts of 'baby killer', the being refused seating in restaurants, while those who got their deferments got the good jobs, took the girls we left behind and got a several year head start up the economic ladder, I AM bitter.



Jim, 

You earned the right to be Bitter, thank you for your service.


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## Rob&Carol Q (Apr 17, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> An invasion isn't a war



Did you really type that?  

Would it have passed your definition of "war" if more of our amazing warriors had come home with an Honor Guard escort?  Would you have been pleased with a grinding mile by mile fight up the Euphrates generating 200+ casualties a day?  Sorry, our training and technology just doesn't allow today's military to get bogged down in that stuff.  I rather like the idea of a very unfair fight when I'm on the winning side.

As one who went North just 10 years ago trust me, the blood was real, the horrific wounds caused by shrapnel and bullets were real, the deaths were sadly far too real. 


I know, not my thread and I probably should have stayed out but I'm actually embarrassed for you.

Feel free to delete this if I crossed the line.


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## lilpooh108 (Apr 17, 2013)

skim118 said:


> OP : I understand your feelings of rejection from Temple, your son's current school. Trust me that is the best gift Temple could have given him and I wish he does not get into any of the schools that have waitlisted him.
> 
> The Legal job market is nothing like what it used to be & Job prospects are fairly bleak for graduates from Tier 2/3/4 schools.  In fact things are not too great even for those in the 50 schools that comprise Tier 1, especially those are not above the median GPA in their first year of Law School.
> 
> ...



You gave the best advice over these 6 pages of comments.

OP---have your son look up the website, "Above the Law."  It's basically a blog where BigLaw associates pass on memos about their law firms, discuss employment prospects, etc.  It's very current, and it gives a great (cynical) insider's view.  Have him really think about whether he wants to graduate with law school debt, and realistically think about whether he can: (1) get a job in BigLaw and (2) hack it in BigLaw.

IMO, the entry-level positions for 1st year associates didn't take a dive in 2009---- it started taking a dive in 2005/2006.  There were stealth memos sent out during that time, laying off people in droves.  The market isn't that much better now.  I know lots of mid-level associates right now who went to Top 20 law schools who either: (1) were affected by the downturn; or (2) burned out.  They went to law school w/o considering the effect of graduate loans, and now they're miserable.


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## x3 skier (Apr 17, 2013)

Rob&Carol Q said:


> Did you really type that?
> 
> Would it have passed your definition of "war" if more of our amazing warriors had come home with an Honor Guard escort?  Would you have been pleased with a grinding mile by mile fight up the Euphrates generating 200+ casualties a day?  Sorry, our training and technology just doesn't allow today's military to get bogged down in that stuff.  I rather like the idea of a very unfair fight when I'm on the winning side.
> 
> ...



Well said. 

Thanks


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rob&Carol Q said:


> Did you really type that?
> 
> Would it have passed your definition of "war" if more of our amazing warriors had come home with an Honor Guard escort?  Would you have been pleased with a grinding mile by mile fight up the Euphrates generating 200+ casualties a day?  Sorry, our training and technology just doesn't allow today's military to get bogged down in that stuff.  I rather like the idea of a very unfair fight when I'm on the winning side.
> 
> ...




It's not about the death toll, i'm sure many Germans died in Denmark and Poland during WWII, those were invasions not wars, and when even one solider, on any side, is even hurt during these invasions it is a travesty!! I don't think it's right to blame the soldiers in any of these cases. They are trained to follow orders and thats what they did.

The difference between a war and invasion IMO, is the reasoning....During WWII if it wasn't for the US Military this country would be a VERY a different place...We needed to get involved in that war to protect America....Since WWII, the invasions we have been involved in haven't been about protecting America or the American way, it's been about policing the world, about increasing Corporate profits  and about control....Those are not wars...Our soldiers deserve better then that!


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## siesta (Apr 17, 2013)

skim118 said:


> His GPA is good enough for all T14 schools; so if he can get raise his LSAT scores even in 160s, which I am sure he will (he can somewhat predict his score once he takes 25-30 timed practice tests), he can even apply to Tier 1 schools.


 He will need over a 170 to even have a shot at a t14 school, and even then it wouldnt be very likely.  Because the 25th to 75th percentile LSAT score for the lowest ranked t14 school is around the higher 160s to 170. And although his gpa is good, its not from a top school.  For t14 schools you are competing with many ivy league kids with similar gpa's.

A few of the Tier 1 schools are doable with a 160+ and that gpa from that school,  but still it will be tough not coming from a top school. (I think OPs son went to Temple? Which undergrad is ranked 125th)

Top law schools are very competitive.

Another thing I havent seen mentioned, is if you work in the public sector as an attorney (states attorneys office, public defender, federal prosecutor, legal aid, etc.) after 10 years your student loan debt is forgiven.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html for gpa and lsat admission info


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## bogey21 (Apr 18, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ......people really question if they want to be involved with the quasi-legal/quasi-ethical things the military commanders are ordering kids to do



Examples please.  I (Korea), my Brother (Viet Nam) and my Son (Iraq) are trying to figure out what you are talking about.  

George


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## ilene13 (Apr 18, 2013)

Santina said:


> Thanks for all the comments. He has law clerked and it is his dream to be a lawyer. So I am going to advise him to not give the fight up for now. Take a course and retake LSAT's. He studied so hard these past 4 years and it seems in the end hard work isn't paying off. Most of the applications say we look at the whole person not just Lsat scores but sadly that is not true. They want your application money I think.



I think they do look at the whole person but your son's scores were very low.  I would have thought that any score below 152 would have been a trigger to retake it.  I know when my 31 yr old took it in 2004 the schools were saying a minimum of a 157 for a tier 2/3 school.  He is a practicing attorney today.


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 18, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> Examples please.  I (Korea), my Brother (Viet Nam) and my Son (Iraq) are trying to figure out what you are talking about.
> 
> George



If you were old enough to fight in Korea, you were well aware of the protests about Vietnam, while i personally don't agree with the way the returning soldiers were treated, they deserve respect, even if the invasion didn't....I believe the protests that spoke directly to the 'reasons' behind the invasion were very valid and well publicized

Thanks to increase in technology, the reasoning behind and results of the invasion of Iraq were even more public, there are protests all over the web and the news speaking directly about the 'reasons' given to us being invalid.


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## bogey21 (Apr 18, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ........people really question if they want to be involved with *the quasi-legal/quasi-ethical things the military commanders are ordering kids to do*



The examples I am looking for are "the quasi-legal/quasi-ethical things the military commanders are ordering kids to do".  Those in my family (including me) who have served don't know what you are talking about.

George


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## VegasBella (Apr 18, 2013)

siesta said:


> Another thing I havent seen mentioned, is if you work in the public sector as an attorney (states attorneys office, public defender, federal prosecutor, legal aid, etc.) after 10 years your student loan debt is forgiven.



Yes, here are the details:
http://www.studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-forgiveness.pdf


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 18, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> The examples I am looking for are "the quasi-legal/quasi-ethical things the military commanders are ordering kids to do".  Those in my family (including me) who have served don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> George



Go to Iraq and fight, Go to Viet Nam and fight, both Quasi-legal and definitely not ethical. Those are the major ones i can think of off the top of my head, i'm sure there are others, detaining innocent civilians in Iraq and Viet Nam, torturing innocent people, for example, but those seem to be the two major ones.


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## DeniseM (Apr 18, 2013)

Warning - "War" is a controversial political and social topic.  It's also completely off-topic for this thread.  

Any further comments on "war" will cause the thread to be closed.


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## x3 skier (Apr 18, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Warning - "War" is a controversial political and social topic.  It's also completely off-topic for this thread.
> 
> Any further comments on "war" will cause the thread to be closed.



Thanks and I certainly agree with your position. (I have some not so nice remarks on that topic but will refrain. )

Cheers


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 18, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Warning - "War" is a controversial political and social topic.  It's also completely off-topic for this thread.
> 
> Any further comments on "war" will cause the thread to be closed.





x3 skier said:


> Thanks and I certainly agree with your position. (I have some not so nice remarks on that topic but will refrain. )
> 
> Cheers



+2! Thank you Denise! it is a controversial topic and thank you for stopping it when you did!


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## Passepartout (Apr 18, 2013)

Looked to me like the OP had his inquiry answered and recommendations made to remedy it over 100 posts back. 

Jim


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## x3 skier (Apr 18, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> Looked to me like the OP had his inquiry answered and recommendations made to remedy it over 100 posts back.
> 
> Jim



To recap, it's worth trying again because the legal profession is either lucrative and/or noble OR the time and money required to graduate law school is tough to justify in today's climate for a new attorney.

My assessment will probably generate another 150 posts. 

Cheers


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 18, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> the legal profession is either lucrative and/or noble
> 
> My assessment will probably generate another 150 posts.
> 
> Cheers



Can i comment on just this part? The legal profession can be VERY lucrative OR very Noble....I do believe it can be very noble....Granted, i'm young, but i don't believe you can use AND with that...


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## x3 skier (Apr 18, 2013)

That's one and counting. Now two.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 18, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> To recap, it's worth trying again because the legal profession is either lucrative and/or noble OR the time and money required to graduate law school is tough to justify in today's climate for a new attorney.
> 
> My assessment will probably generate another 150 posts.
> 
> Cheers



"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair


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## siesta (Apr 18, 2013)

another word of advice to the OP, if your son greatly improves his score, he may be required to take the LSAT for a third time.  The agreement all students sign (better known as an adhesion contract), provides that if your score greatly improves they can require you take it again and use that score.  This is to make sure the scoring is reliable.

Sorry for the piecemeal advice, its been years since my LSAT.


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## Rob&Carol Q (Apr 19, 2013)

I live in a rather small town that calls itself a city just South of Dayton.  We have several Law firms present, typically partnerships that own and rehab one of those fantastic old architecture buildings downtown.  All of the firms are doing OK...especially when compared to the average citizen around here.

Perfect?  Of course not.  And yet, one can generate a fine little income working small town law.  But I'm willing to bet that the "Best" Law School diploma you are going to find down in my little town is probably a stray Ohio State.  But your day will be Wills, Property Rights, and Small Business concerns.  Oh, and a DUI attorney does pretty well also.

Honestly, does he want to study AND work in the legal profession? Plenty of options for that character.  Or does he want a golden ticket?


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## Santina (Apr 20, 2013)

No he does not want a golden ticket. He is probably the most decent human being I know. I know all mothers say that about her children but on the other hand I have a daughter who is a complete elitist. He has always been a champion for the unfairly treated even when he was a little boy. He helps the poor and elderly on a volunteer basis. He will go back to a restaurant a week later and pay a waitress a bigger tip because he didn't have enough money at the time. My husband and I don't where he got these virtues because we aren't always the best parents. So I hope there is room in this world and in the field for him to advance. He is not concerned about money,unlike my daughter, so maybe he will find his way in another form of public service. Thank you for all your advise. This post has been so interesting and I learned so much . I hope it goes on forever! Tuggers are the best.


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## Santina (Apr 20, 2013)

Also Siesta, I learned so much about the LSAT from you.i went online and tried to take one myself. I guess I need a prep course but I thought it was fun to exercise my brain.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 24, 2013)

Interesting article on law school

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/reducing-student-debt-why-shouldnt-194300501.html

NEW YORK (MainStreet) —Have you ever wanted to change a stranger’s life? That was what happened to me one night over beers with some colleagues from firm. When our waitress overheard that we were all practicing attorneys, she mentioned that she was applying to law schools herself and asked if we had any advice.

“Yes,” my friend Kate said. “Don’t go.” Our waitress laughed. We did not.

According to a recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education as many as six out of ten lawyers urge young people to stay away from their profession, and in the four years since graduating myself, I’ve only ended one conversation by telling the applicant he’d made a good decision. Yet most of us continue to practice anyway, grinding away at the very job from which we so strongly urge others to save themselves. Why is that?

In a word, debt.


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## laurac260 (Apr 25, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> Interesting article on law school
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/reducing-student-debt-why-shouldnt-194300501.html
> 
> ...



hear hear.... how many more lawyers DO we need, anyway?


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## Passepartout (Apr 25, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> hear hear.... how many more lawyers DO we need, anyway?



OP is hoping...ONE!


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## Santina (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm a teacher and when I'm in a group of teachers and someone asks for advise ,someone in the group always says don't be a teacher. One in every group.


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## am1 (Apr 30, 2013)

Santina said:


> I'm a teacher and when I'm in a group of teachers and someone asks for advise ,someone in the group always says don't be a teacher. One in every group.



I do not understand why.


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## pgnewarkboy (Apr 30, 2013)

Start a bank-you can't fail.


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## x3 skier (Apr 30, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> hear hear.... how many more lawyers DO we need, anyway?



Fewer than are currently in law school.

Cheers


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## ilene13 (Apr 30, 2013)

am1 said:


> I do not understand why.



In NYS the accountability for teachers is starting to become ridiculous.  As an administrator I can give a teacher a highly effective rating on his/her APPR.  Then based upon how the teacher's students do on the Regents exams (high school) and the students' attendance the state can lower the rating to ineffective.  In the inner city we do not have a not of control over the students' attendance---sometimes there are no parents, the student is working 2 jobs, etc.  If a teacher gets an ineffective rating two consecutive years termination proceedings may occur.  I  am glad I am at the end of my career.  We need fabulous teachers but right now I would not encourage any young person to go into education.


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## am1 (Apr 30, 2013)

ilene13 said:


> In NYS the accountability for teachers is starting to become ridiculous.  As an administrator I can give a teacher a highly effective rating on his/her APPR.  Then based upon how the teacher's students do on the Regents exams (high school) and the students' attendance the state can lower the rating to ineffective.  In the inner city we do not have a not of control over the students' attendance---sometimes there are no parents, the student is working 2 jobs, etc.  If a teacher gets an ineffective rating two consecutive years termination proceedings may occur.  I  am glad I am at the end of my career.  We need fabulous teachers but right now I would not encourage any young person to go into education.



100k a year, great benefits and pension, summers and holidays off and done by 3pm sounds pretty good to me.

I am sure it varies by subject.


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## wilma (Apr 30, 2013)

am1 said:


> 100k a year, great benefits and pension, summers and holidays off and done by 3pm sounds pretty good to me.
> 
> I am sure it varies by subject.



Where are teachers getting $100K a year? If you look at median teacher pay, then it's more like $45,000 for elementary schools and $55,000 for high schools. They can make more if they teach during the summer.


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## fillde (Apr 30, 2013)

wilma said:


> Where are teachers getting $100K a year? If you look at median teacher pay, then it's more like $45,000 for elementary schools and $55,000 for high schools. They can make more if they teach during the summer.



In NYC teachers are getting 100,000 a year to sit in so called "rubber rooms" and they don't even have to  teach.


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 30, 2013)

wilma said:


> Where are teachers getting $100K a year? If you look at median teacher pay, then it's more like $45,000 for elementary schools and $55,000 for high schools. They can make more if they teach during the summer.



Technically, many teachers are making well above $75K plus great benefits like defined pension plans, health, etc. and they only work 190 days per year vs the average 250 days for most workers.

Thus, IF the teacher works summers like most people do, and then they get an advanced MS or board certified, they can easily earn $100k

I am NOT saying teachers are overpaid, but they most certainly are not underpaid like most people think.

On the other hand, new teachers are paid pretty low while teachers with 20-30 years on the job are paid a lot.

I am confused why teachers are paid more each year (no matter if they are good or not) when in the private word, you are paid on your credentials and experience and effort.


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## wilma (Apr 30, 2013)

fillde said:


> In NYC teachers are getting 100,000 a year to sit in so called "rubber rooms" and they don't even have to  teach.



those are isolated exceptions, the average pay for teachers is not $100k to do nothing.


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## ilene13 (May 1, 2013)

am1 said:


> 100k a year, great benefits and pension, summers and holidays off and done by 3pm sounds pretty good to me.
> 
> I am sure it varies by subject.



Teachers in Buffalo are NOT paid anywhere near $100,000.  Buffalo does not have rubber rooms.  Teachers are not paid based on what they teach.  They are paid based upon experience and graduate hours.  In NYS you MUST have a minimum of a master's degree.


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## SkyBlueWaters (May 1, 2013)

*From lawyers to teachers*

The most interesting thread in timesharing is not timeshare related.

To the OP, good luck to your son. The legal market is tough right now with the recession. One of the posters gave the right advice. If he can't get into a top tier law school, he might want to rethink his plans. There are lots of underemployed or unemployed lawyers out there.


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## am1 (May 1, 2013)

ilene13 said:


> Teachers in Buffalo are NOT paid anywhere near $100,000.  Buffalo does not have rubber rooms.  Teachers are not paid based on what they teach.  They are paid based upon experience and graduate hours.  In NYS you MUST have a minimum of a master's degree.



Teachers switching districts have a lot more leverage if they teach one of the harder subjects.  It is very easy to get a job out of college.  Also easy to prepare for class and grade.  Tutoring can be $75/hr or more.  

I would advise people not to become a gym or english teachers.  But once they get in the door they should be very happy.  A physics teacher is a great job right from the start.


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## bogey21 (May 1, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> Technically, many teachers are making well above $75K plus great benefits like defined pension plans, health, etc. and they only work 190 days per year vs the average 250 days for most workers.


 I sent my kids to one of the Christian Schools.  Tuition was about $5,000 per year.  Great teachers but I can't believe any of them made anything near $50,000.  Little turnover.  They liked their kids and the environment.  My kids are now over 30 years old and still keep in touch with many of their old teachers.

George


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## PStreet1 (May 1, 2013)

am1 said:


> 100k a year, great benefits and pension, summers and holidays off and done by 3pm sounds pretty good to me.
> 
> I am sure it varies by subject.


There is, of course, no employer matching for pension contributions--and more importantly, pensions are part of the SEVERELY UNDERFUNDED state pension systems.  Whether they will exist long is becoming a good question.

Done at 3:00 pm?  Where does that happen?  A lot of teachers have after school duties, like club sponsorship.  Those who don't, are, in most cases, required to meet with students for extra help.  Then there are parent meetings and in-service trainings.  In addition, with 150 students (in my case) who are required to write once a week, who do you think was reading 150 papers a week?  When do you think it was getting done?  Before 3:00 pm?  Not likely.  How long do you think it takes to mark corrections on each paper?  And then there are tests to grade, which are definitely not part of the once a week writing.  And then there are lesson plans to create.  And then there are handouts to make, get copies run off, etc.  Who do you think types the handouts?  Before 3:00 pm?  

Yes, summers (6 weeks) are non-work periods--except for required continuing education, for which there is no pay.

Teaching is like a lot of other jobs:  just because you've seen the job done doesn't mean you know anything about it; just having been a student tells you almost nothing about what teachers do.


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## BocaBum99 (May 1, 2013)

PStreet1 said:


> There is, of course, no employer matching for pension contributions--and more importantly, pensions are part of the SEVERELY UNDERFUNDED state pension systems.  Whether they will exist long is becoming a good question.
> 
> Done at 3:00 pm?  Where does that happen?  A lot of teachers have after school duties, like club sponsorship.  Those who don't, are, in most cases, required to meet with students for extra help.  Then there are parent meetings and in-service trainings.  In addition, with 150 students (in my case) who are required to write once a week, who do you think was reading 150 papers a week?  When do you think it was getting done?  Before 3:00 pm?  Not likely.  How long do you think it takes to mark corrections on each paper?  And then there are tests to grade, which are definitely not part of the once a week writing.  And then there are lesson plans to create.  And then there are handouts to make, get copies run off, etc.  Who do you think types the handouts?  Before 3:00 pm?
> 
> ...



I would hate to be a teacher where the students don't want to be there.  The main reason that I now like private schools is because the parents, the students and the teachers all choose to be there.   When people do things of their own free will, they tend to work a lot better than if they are coerced.


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## fillde (May 1, 2013)

wilma said:


> Where are teachers getting $100K a year?.



You asked a question. I answered it. What don't you get?


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## wilma (May 1, 2013)

fillde said:


> You asked a question. I answered it. What don't you get?



I get it, you are using an isolated case of a teacher making $100K, most teachers don't make anywhere near $100K. I get it, you are showing your lack of respect for teachers and trying to further the notion that teachers are overpaid and don't have to work much. I get it.


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## fillde (May 1, 2013)

wilma said:


> I get it, you are using an isolated case of a teacher making $100K, most teachers don't make anywhere near $100K. I get it, you are showing your lack of respect for teachers and trying to further the notion that teachers are overpaid and don't have to work much. I get it.



I have many friends that are teachers.. They are not in it for the money. They love children. They feel they can make a difference in a young person's life.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16/rubber-rooms-in-new-york-city-22-million_n_1969749.html

'Rubber Rooms' In New York Schools Cost City $22 Million A Year For Teachers Awaiting Hearings 
Posted: 10/16/2012 10:33 am Updated: 10/16/2012 10:42 am


The city and teachers' union may have agreed to shut down the usage of "rubber rooms" -- reassignment centers for educators awaiting discipline hearings in 2010 -- but according to a new report, the city is still shelling out to idle teachers.

The Daily News reports traditional rubber rooms have been replaced with unused offices and even cramped utility closets, where although numbers have improved, on an average day roughly 200 teachers sit and collect their normal salaries.

And for their time, the city is projected to shell out a staggering $22 million to teachers doing absolutely nothing this year alone. 

When the city announced an end to the controversial rubber room practice in 2010, Mayor Bloomberg denounced the centers as an "expensive abuse of tenure." Under the new agreement, teachers accused of wrongdoing were supposed to be assigned administrative work until their cases receive a hearing.

Two years later, many teachers subjected to waiting say they haven't received such duties. 

Rubber rooms remerged under the spotlight earlier this month when a Staten Island teacher was found live streaming his time in a center with signs readings "I'd rather teach!" and "Don't Tread On Me." 

A department spokesperson said Francesco Portelos had been removed as a computer technology teacher because he was deemed "extremely difficult to work with," but he claims he was actually penalized for accusing the school's principal for financial misconduct. 




"It’s just crazy, I never thought this would happen especially in the New York City Department of Education," Portelos said. "A $24 billion budget and I’m being paid $75,000 to sit here. It’s ridiculous. I’m not here because I’m a bad teacher, I’m not here because I did anything to anyone physically, I’m here because they were trying to shut me up and it backfired big time."



Teacher Controversies


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## Santina (May 2, 2013)

I'm the original poster. JUst wanted to update everyone he is on the waitlist for 5 schools, rejected from 2. Graduating next week and will need to rethink options. Maybe do Americorps.


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## elaine (May 2, 2013)

after all these posts, I would still HIGHLY recommend working or interning somewhere for 1 year and REALLY working on getting LSAT score up. Kaplan books are a cheap and great way to start. Esp. if he studies why he got the question wrong. Then, he could reapply for the following year. good luck. Elaine


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## x3 skier (May 2, 2013)

Santina said:


> I'm the original poster. JUst wanted to update everyone he is on the waitlist for 5 schools, rejected from 2. Graduating next week and will need to rethink options. Maybe do Americorps.



Thanks for the update and good luck. 

Cheers


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## pianodinosaur (May 4, 2013)

siesta said:


> where are you getting your information from?
> 
> The average salary of an attorney in Chicago is $143,000.  That is significantly more than the average real estate agent, contractor, or plumber. The same goes for Pittsburgh and Philadelphia as the OP is from PA, they are both over $140k as well.
> 
> ...



There is no question that an attorney in an elite firm can do very well.  However, there are numerous multimillionaire real estate agents, contractors, and plumbers.  They did it by working very hard.  Graduating from law school does not guarantee employment as an attorney.  Not all real estate agents, contractors, or plumbers do well either.  There are quite a few real estate agents who may not be as wealthy as Donald Trump, but who still do well enough to hire attorneys from tier 1 law schools.  The contractors who build your typical housing subdivisions may also be very wealthy.


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## VegasBella (May 4, 2013)

Santina said:


> I'm the original poster. JUst wanted to update everyone he is on the waitlist for 5 schools, rejected from 2. Graduating next week and will need to rethink options. Maybe do Americorps.



AneriCorps sounds like a good plan


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## LisaH (May 5, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> AneriCorps sounds like a good plan



I agree. The other option is joining a non-profit organization such as Teach For America. I know quite a few kids who did/are doing this after graduating from colleges before enrolling to law schools or medical schools. Apparently schools value kids with such kind of experience.


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