# Marriott's new forum to discuss the 2009 changes.



## thinze3 (Oct 23, 2008)

Here is a link to the thread that discusses Marriott's 2009 Program Changes.  I received an email about it earlier. It appears that Ed French, Sr. Vice President of Marriott, created the thread.

You will need to log in to your Marriott.com account. Then click on "Welcome to our 2009 Program Changes forum!" 


Terry


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## wbrown (Oct 23, 2008)

I just posted my dissatifaction with the changes using your link.  Thanks


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## GetawaysRus (Oct 23, 2008)

I will try to post as well and would encourage others to do so.  

Their site is not so slick - I'm getting an error message when I click on "submit," but I'll keep trying.

They may have to listen if there is loud grumbling from many people.


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## yobo500 (Oct 23, 2008)

I also added my dissatisfaction with the new program on the website.I read through several and many rewards members do not seem to be very happy with Mr. French's idea.I was glad to see that MVCI owners were also sharing their unhappniess with this idea and not just plat. elite members.:annoyed:


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## Zac495 (Oct 23, 2008)

I tried 3 times. ERROR every time.

I said this: (nothing new)

I bought a timeshare that exchanges for 110K per year. I was TOLD by my salesman Jeremy in NCV in CA that i could exchange my timeshare every 2 years for just about the amount of a 250K travel package. He said get the Marriott credit card for the extra 30K. HEY! NOW I can't do it! Now I'm stuck with a very expensive timeshare that I only bought for points. I could have bought this timeshare to use or exchange for much less on the resale market - and Jeremy AGREED with me. But he said I could get a great vacation every TWO years with the points. We bought it. Now we need to wait every 3 years. UNFAIR and unethical.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 23, 2008)

I think these forums are filtered. Meaning your post won't show until reviewed, overly edited and then approved. They may not even post it at all if it does not meet their business interests.


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## Jpollo (Oct 23, 2008)

It's not unfair and unethical. EVERY rewards program has point deflation.

I think eveyone who is complaining didn't do the appropriate research before buying for points.


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## thinze3 (Oct 23, 2008)

Quote from Marriott:


> Many of you have expressed your dissatisfaction with the decrease in value for the 7-night and package awards. For those of you who only redeem points for 7 night stays, and never at a Stay Anytime rate, these stays are going to require more points.
> 
> We are constantly working to improve the value of the program and, as a general rule, take our cues from member requests as well as the competitive marketplace.  We listen to what you say and try to provide benefits that have the highest value.
> 
> Mounds of member research and verbatim comments tell us that availability of rooms for redemption stays at the hotel of the member’s choice is a highly-valued benefit.  You told us that no blackout dates is very important to you; and the competitive marketplace told us that the time to offer the benefit had come.  But we felt that we could provide more.  Not surprisingly, the 50% Platinum bonus and 5th night free tested extremely high in terms of program value, so we knew we had to find a way to afford these other benefits.


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## mas (Oct 23, 2008)

> ...Mounds of member research and verbatim comments tell us that availability of rooms for redemption stays at the hotel of the member’s choice is a highly-valued benefit. You told us that no blackout dates is very important to you; and the competitive marketplace told us that the time to offer the benefit had come. But we felt that we could provide more. Not surprisingly, the 50% Platinum bonus and 5th night free tested extremely high in terms of program value, so we knew we had to find a way to afford these other benefits.



Again, it's quite obvious that the MRP is geared toward the business traveler and not the typical MVCI customer.  IMHO,the MRP program, regardless of what any TS salesman says, is at best a minor adjunct to the MVCI program and as such, what is important to the MVCI customer will have very little weight in the overall evolution of the MRP program unless it happens to coincide with the business traveler's interest.


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## billymach4 (Oct 23, 2008)

Not sure if  you folks realize this. Over on FlyerTalk there is of course a Marriott Rewards Program forum. Apparently Marriott has an official rep on the forum that delivered the bad news. This guys name is Marriott Concierge. So far there are 14 pages of ranting and bashing. You might want to chime in and add to the protesting!


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## mas (Oct 23, 2008)

billymach4 said:


> Not sure if  you folks realize this. Over on FlyerTalk there is of course a Marriott Rewards Program forum. Apparently Marriott has an official rep on the forum that delivered the bad news. This guys name is Marriott Concierge. So far there are 14 pages of ranting and bashing. You might want to chime in and add to the protesting!



The MC (Ira) had an interesting comment on devaluation of MVCI weeks for points trade.  The OP essentially asked what Marriott's response to this devaluation was.  Ira's response was, "We are still communicating with MVCI on this issue. I will post something when I have something concrete."  

I'm not holding my breath here, but I interpret this response as at least Marriott is considering a possible adjustment to the exchange rate, or is aware of the dissatisfaction of MVCI members over the devaluation.


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## KathyPet (Oct 24, 2008)

I just reviewed the comments posted there.  I would say about 95% negative.  Lots of MVCI owners complaining about their point devaluation but also lots of non TS owners who also do not like the changes.  Let's see if they listen.  Note to self:  When you hear the words "Program Enhancements" be prepared to get sc*****


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## LilMsFoodie (Oct 24, 2008)

There is a decline in the value of almost everything right now, no reason that the points from Marriott should not participate in this decline.  Real estate is plummeting, time shares are as well.  The stock market, the bond market, the commodity markets are all plunging and people are worried about a reduction in points.  These are rewards, not rights.  I was surprised that it didn't happen sooner.  

If you look at the level 8 rewards, several of the properties are small hotels in advantageous locations and have an abnormal number of reward stays:  weekends in NYC and in South Beach come to mind.


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## Tony&Perry (Oct 24, 2008)

*Disgusted 6 week MCVI owner*

[_Message deleted. Duplicate posts are not permitted on the BBS._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## pianodinosaur (Oct 24, 2008)

*Unhappy with changes in Marriott Rewards*

I have taken the weekend off to stay in Marble Falls, Texas, to celebrate my wife's birthday. The last time we were here we stayed at the Marriott Horseshoe Bay Resort and used our Marriott Rewards Visa.  We are are currently at the Hampton Inn on the Lake in Marble Falls and using our Hilton Honors AmEx. 

Hilton has actually increased the value of HGVC points.  Two years ago the conversion from HGVC to HHonors was 23 to 1.  The current conversion rate is 25 to 1.  This means that if you want to stay at a Hilton Hotel Resort you HGVC membership is even more valuable. So, while Marriott has devalued their membership, Hilton has actually increased the value of membership. The main problem with Hilton is that the choice of locations is limited in comparison to Marriott.  Then again, we have enjoyed the partnership with Grand Mayan and Club Intrawest that have greatly expanded our options. 

It would therefore seem that there may be a logic for Zac to sell her MMC since she will no longer be using her points and pick up a Hilton resale from a reputable dealer like Seth Nock.


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## rockedge (Oct 24, 2008)

*Points*

When looking at the program it seems to me they are forcing us to use lesser quality hotels. If you look at the point values for the 5 nights categories 1 thru 4 are actually better than the old program but 5-8 are worse. So they are saying yeah you can get lodging but not at the same quality as your timeshare. It would seem to me that the fair thing to do would be to increase the point value for trading in your timeshare to equivalent lodging. They are all worse if you want to stay less than 5 days unfortunately, for the weekend set etc.


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## nygiants11991 (Oct 24, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Here is a link to the thread that discusses Marriott's 2009 Program Changes.  I received an email about it earlier. It appears that Ed French, Sr. Vice President of Marriott, created the thread.
> 
> You will need to log in to your Marriott.com account. Then click on "Welcome to our 2009 Program Changes forum!"
> 
> ...




I posted my frustration.  It was the first time using that forum, it is a little differnt than TUG.  So it shows before Ed French's.  Whoops..


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## Tony&Perry (Oct 25, 2008)

*Simple solution for Marriott*

They can solve the problem by increasing the points they give for time share conversion each year so we can still take the  Marriott hotel vacations
that is one of the major selling promotions for the time shares.
My fear is that new buyers will be offered much better promotions to maintain sales (especially in this economic climate) and the previous owners will be left being royally screwed.  
Time share sales had a bad reputation in the past which Marriott sought to rectify by using their Christian moral standards as a promotion.  I guess Judas was at the back of the sales room.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 25, 2008)

Tony&Perry said:


> Time share sales had a bad reputation in the past which Marriott sought to rectify by using their Christian moral standards as a promotion.  I guess Judas was at the back of the sales room.



I agree that the new program devalues the points program and points obtained by Marriott timeshare owners. 

But your statement above is not fair and inappropriate on this board.  Marriott never used "Christian moral standards" as a promotion. I've attended numerous Marriott timeshare presentations since the early 90's and I've never heard that claim. Marriott is in the hospitality business and has shareholders, along with numerous other factors to consider. 

Multiple posts on are not allowed on this forum.


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## kjd (Oct 27, 2008)

Let me start by saying that any devaluation of MR points is a lousy deal for Marriott TS owners and has the appearance of deliberate dishonesty on the part of sales staff.  Obviously, there are way too many horror stories given here to think otherwise.

Having said that, it appears to me that the basic reward structure is still intact and that it is still a game of how to best use your points.  For example, when you research an area to stay you often find that there are Marriott products that do not require a lot more MRPs.  It's just that they may be a lower end products like Fairfield, Courtyard or Spring Hill Suites rather than JW, Marriott Hotels or Residence Inn.  

In the end I am sure that TUGGERS will share many creative ideas in dealing with the new MRP system.  I suggest that we move on and let this "latest announcement" have its affect upon future MVCI sales.  I was told that one of the biggest sources of new buyers are current owners.  The MRP devaluation really makes owners want to buy another MVCI TS, doesn't it?


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## Latravel (Oct 27, 2008)

I really don't like that it now costs more points for a hotel stay.  I also really don't like that it costs me more for gas and food in the grocery store.  I think we should expect that the cost of hotel stays in terms of points will change more than once in the future as prices go up.

That said, the fact that they set up a forum and are asking our opinions means that this issue is not finished.  If they ask for feedback, they are still thinking about or finalizing some outstanding issues.  I would bet that they are still considering changing the amount of points given to an owner to trade a unit.  If they increase that amount, things would be looking much better to owners.  My salesperson did tell me that the average Marriott owner owns 4 weeks and is the biggest source of sales.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 27, 2008)

Obviously the value now is in 5 night stays. 

I'm most interested in categories 5-7. Even though they will cost more points than a current 5 night stay, it's a single digit % increase. Considering how long it's been since Marriott increased the points requirements, that is a reasonable increase. I can live with that. I'll just plan reward redemptions for 5 or 10 nights, instead of the 7 night packages. 

The percentage increase in points for a five night stay is:

category 5= 5.3% (95K to 100K)
category 6= 9.1% (110K to 120K)
category 7=7.7% (130K to 140K)
category 8= 23.1% (130K to 160K)

Then points required for a 5 night category 2, 3 or 4 stay have actually gone down.


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## tompk (Oct 27, 2008)

LAX Mom, the 5 night strategy does indeed make the new structure tolerable. Now if they just didn't charge that premium for the air miles in the 5 night packages.


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## stopgowalkon (Oct 28, 2008)

Is all this further evidence why it's best to buy a Marriott TS on the resale market?  Forget about the points benefit, save the cash, and use for a hotel later if need be.


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## Latravel (Oct 28, 2008)

No of course not.  There is still a significant value in points as LAX Mom is showing.  It appears the best deal is in the 5 night stay.


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## Steve A (Oct 29, 2008)

What I resented the most is that they think that we are stupid with their less is more, war is peace manner of presentation.


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## Dean (Oct 30, 2008)

Latravel said:


> No of course not.  There is still a significant value in points as LAX Mom is showing.  It appears the best deal is in the 5 night stay.


That's because you're comparing to something that was a poor value under the old system.  If you do per night points, the increase for a typical week is still significant and doubly so since many of those resorts that made the most sense under the old system make up the new higher cat 8.


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## potchak (Oct 31, 2008)

I don't think I am so much upset by the changes to the MRP program as much as I am upset about the Devaluation of my timeshare. I, like Zac495 was sold "trade in your timeshare 2 yrs, and credit card purchases will get you 7 nights and airfare to Europe and a car". Well, this is no longer the case. At best, it will take me 3 yrs and credit card purchases to get the same week at 110K points. I think what MVCI owners are trying to point out is the fact that we feel that we were baited and switched to a different product or at least a much devalued one. If they increase the amount of points we get for our units (especially considering the high MF's anymore) it might make it worth it to us to trade for points. However, if they don't, I don't see why we would trade the units in for points anymore. Doesn't make sense.


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## Latravel (Oct 31, 2008)

I completely see what you are saying.  In the presentation, they did use the trade for points option as a major selling point.  

BUT, If I remember what they said in the presentation, they never promised me I would forever stay in a category 7 hotel for 7 nights for however long I owned my timeshare.  We can still trade in our timeshare for points to be used for 7 nights but they won't be a category 7.  I think it's an unreasonable expectation that my points or  "money" would buy me the same fixed amount of hotel stays at the same fixed quality forever.  Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed.  Still, I don't like it at all.

When booking my trip for Italy using points, I was SHOCKED by the cost of the Marriott Capri that I booked (of course I reserved with points).  It was 650euro or about $845per night!  That is $5915 per week.  A week at Shadow Ridge would not rent that much.  Trading in my Shadow Ridge for 2 weeks would not make rent for even close to that much, so I can see why they changed the point requirements.


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## mas (Oct 31, 2008)

Latravel said:


> ...When booking my trip for Italy using points, I was SHOCKED by the cost of the Marriott Capri that I booked (of course I reserved with points).  It was 650euro or about $845per night!  That is $5915 per week.  A week at Shadow Ridge would not rent that much.  Trading in my Shadow Ridge for 2 weeks would not make rent for even close to that much, so I can see why they changed the point requirements.



Just because they charge $845/nite doesn't mean it's worth anywhere close to that.  I doubt there are too many people actually paying that rate, if any, who are not on an expense account.


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## rsackett (Oct 31, 2008)

Latravel said:


> I...BUT, If I remember what they said in the presentation, they never promised me I would forever stay in a category 7 hotel for 7 nights for however long I owned my timeshare.  We can still trade in our timeshare for points to be used for 7 nights but they won't be a category 7.  I think it's an unreasonable expectation that my points or  "money" would buy me the same fixed amount of hotel stays at the same fixed quality forever.  Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed. ...




I bought resale so I can not trade for points.

BUT, I do think that if I had bought from Marriott I would be very upset.  When you trade your timeshare for points, you are not buying points.  You are giving up a two bedroom with full kitchen, in a prime area of Marriott quality, in high season, for SEVEN nights!  What they now will give you in exchange is seven nights in a hotel room at Fairfield Inn.

Look up what they rent your seven nights for vs what staying in that Fairfield would cost.  I bet it is not a fair exchange.

Ray


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## Latravel (Oct 31, 2008)

I have to beg to differ.  A night in a very high end hotel in Europe is costing hundreds of dollars and people do pay those rates.  If you don't want to pay those rates, there are other levels of hotels that cost less.  But if you want to stay in a category 7 hotel, yes, they cost a lot of money!  If they weren't filling up those rooms, they wouldn't charge as much so, obviously, someone is paying those high rates.

You don't have to look far - a night in Manhattan, NY will cost you $500-600 a night, which is mind boggling to me but people pay those rates everyday.  Those rooms were going for $200-250 per night in 2000/2001 when I was traveling for work.

Should I expect to pay the same number of points for those hotels now as I did in 2000/2001 even though the cost has gone up?

Don't get me wrong, I really dislike the changes but after seeing the cost of hotel rooms lately, I can see why they made the changes.


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## Dean (Oct 31, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed.  Still, I don't like it at all.


From a cost standpoint or at least rack rates, the timeshares should escalate as much or more than most hotels so it should be a wash at worst.  What's likely getting us is the percentage of units that go unrented from the MVCI standpoint.  Otherwise it's simply a shifting of funds, essentially a tax on those that use the system. Some of the cash equivalent options like air may cost Marrriott more going forward but it's interesting that's the one portion that doesn't seem to have gone up.  Ultimately their goal is that you'll deplete your points faster and then stay on cash that extra night here and there, they do add up to their bottom line.  



> I have to beg to differ. A night in a very high end hotel in Europe is costing hundreds of dollars and people do pay those rates.


And IMO, this tied in to the combo awards is the only way to generate a value to the system.  If you use it that way AND you can get what you need, then there is some value.  The entire system could be abolished tomorrow.  It's simply too risky and too low a return to make it reasonable to put much or any value on it worth paying for.  If it's essentially free and you can still use it and get value, it's gravy and that's all one should look at it as in the timeshare context.


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## Latravel (Oct 31, 2008)

This just hit me as i'm driving home (maybe i'm slow).  If the cost of hotels are not fixed and go up year by year, then the same can be said for the units they receive from owners to rent (or whatever).  The units we turn in for points are eventually rented out to others, so, using the same logic, those units should cost more year by year, just like hotels.  Why would Marriott fix the amount it costs them (in terms of points) to have our units, yet charge others more when they rent those units?  No, it doesn't work this way. 

The value of our units will also go up year to year so the amount of points Marriott should give us to have those units should go up as well.  If not, no one will turn in their units for points (because it wouldn't be worth it) and eventually, Marriott would have nulllified their main selling point.  It doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to a sales presentation in December and i'll ask them some questions about value.  I'm curious how they will respond.


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## Dean (Oct 31, 2008)

Latravel said:


> This just hit me as i'm driving home (maybe i'm slow).  If the cost of hotels are not fixed and go up year by year, then the same can be said for the units they receive from owners to rent (or whatever).  The units we turn in for points are eventually rented out to others, so, using the same logic, those units should cost more year by year, just like hotels.  Why would Marriott fix the amount it costs them (in terms of points) to have our units, yet charge others more when they rent those units?  No, it doesn't work this way.
> 
> The value of our units will also go up year to year so the amount of points Marriott should give us to have those units should go up as well.  If not, no one will turn in their units for points (because it wouldn't be worth it) and eventually, Marriott would have nulllified their main selling point.  It doesn't make any sense.
> 
> I'm going to a sales presentation in December and i'll ask them some questions about value.  I'm curious how they will respond.


Didn't I just say that about MVCI unit values increasing as well, LOL.  If they escalate the points charts to devalue points, they should increase the points given if you trade for points.  IF it were fairly static, it shouldn't matter.


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## TJCNewYork (Mar 30, 2009)

Here's an upbeat article from Ric Garrido of Loyalty Traveler about Marriott's March 24th Press Release announcing a new 3 for 2 promotion*:  Hooray for Marriott Rewards

The 3 for 2 schedule discounts the points needed to redeem nights at a Marriott resort to 2008 levels.  It's not exactly "grandfathering" but a temporary roll-back:

    * 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 4 Resorts = 40,000 points
    * 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 5 Resorts = 50,000 points
    * 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 6 Resorts = 60,000 points
    * 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 7 Resorts = 70,000 points

The upside is that Marriott Marketing appears to be responding to comments received from Marriott Rewards Elite members as well as MVCI owners.  Comments posted on Flyertalk.com to Marriott Concierge suggest a warm reception to this special promotion and a 'start' to restoring confidence recognizing that the premature rollout of the 2009 Program, increased rates and point redemption levels resulted in sticker shock, unprecedented customer dissatisfaction to the devaluation of points and an exodus to competitors.  The downside is the dearth of hotels that are actually participating - 55 in all selected from Category 4 to 7 hotels**. Only 18 resorts are in the US located in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Kentucky and Nevada ranging from Category 5 to 7.  The only Category 4 resorts listed are in Asia, Europe and the Middle East.  Interestingly, several Marriott associates called at Marriott Reservations are not aware of the promotion and do not have a Corporate Promotion Code.

Loyalty Traveler's Ric Garrido suggests that the 3 for 2 promotion is an "olive branch after the outcry over the 2009 changes to the Rewards free night redemption table changes making almost all hotel awards more costly in points in 2009."   What do you think?  Does the special promotion work for you?

*  3 for 2 Special Offer

**  Participating Resort Locations


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## SDKath (Mar 30, 2009)

Do you really think this is responding to people's thoughtful comments on further devaluation of points or is Marriott just trying hard to fill empty hotel rooms (like just about every other hotel chain right now)?

Starwood is running 20-50% off nights specials daily as well as special lowered SPs required to stay in hotels.  My week in Greece just got 20,000 SPs cheaper thanks to their new promo.

I think they are just responding to the generally slow economy and the lack of tourists to fill rooms.  It has little to do with a "start to turning around" their continued devaluation of benefits.  When the hotels fill again, they will revert to the devaluation model again in a heart beat.  Trust me.

Katherine


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## TJCNewYork (Mar 30, 2009)

SDKath said:


> Do you really think this is responding to people's thoughtful comments on further devaluation of points or is Marriott just trying hard to fill empty hotel rooms (like just about every other hotel chain right now)?
> 
> Starwood is running 20-50% off nights specials daily as well as special lowered SPs required to stay in hotels.  My week in Greece just got 20,000 SPs cheaper thanks to their new promo.
> 
> ...



As I said on Marriott Insiders, it's an "olive," not an "olive branch".  The other major point stated on Insiders is that Marriott already learned earlier that 'rolling-back' risks litigation.*  Yes, I do think Marriott has the capacity to listen and understands the business case to compel a response.  The 3 for 2 resort special promotion is not an attempt to "grandfather benefits" as many had proposed and hoped for; it is one of many promotions to ease the sting of "sticker shock" that has gripped the timeshare community as well as the business travel community in general.  

As far as SP, it's truly excellent that Starwood is responding and staving off defection.  The gap between MR membership/booking and SP is huge.**  Marriott Rewards is covering much larger ground from brand integration to discounting.  For example, Marriott has successfully integrated Vacation Club resorts. Several MVC resorts are available for point redemption as well as Pointsavers.  So, in addition to owner rates on villa rentals, MVC owners have even more options.

Most definitely, 3 for 2 is a 'start' to restore Marriott Elite confidence and much better than no response at all.  But, I am not speaking for myself as a beneficiary of the 3 for 2, but rather reflecting the warm reception on Flyertalk when Marriott Concierge leaked the news prior to the formal announcement March 24.   

* The Truth About Frequent Traveler Programs

**


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## thinze3 (Mar 30, 2009)

I saw this offer last week and thought that it was nothing more than an offer to get something rather than nothing for some of Marriott's hotel vacancies.


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