# HELP!!!  MArriott said NO WAY I can buy a 'resale.'



## taxiismygame (Feb 17, 2009)

I am totally new to this whole 'adventure.'  We went to a timeshare presentation in Orlando for their new property that is affiliated with the JW Marirott and the Ritz Carlton.  $31k for a 2br/2bath.  

We took an option but didn't buy.  We paid $895 for 5 nights in a resort of theirs to be used later, (that would lock in the 'freebies' they were going to throw in) that would apply to the balance due "IF" we bought.  So, we thought that was a fair deal.....not at all.

Now I see that you guys are buying 'resale' from Marriott owners for $1k and more offf ebay and the like.  They told us that there was NO WAY we would EVER be able to buy a Marriott resale because of the right of refusale, and that the sale would NEVER go through.  They also told us we would not receive any of the benefits of buying through them, such are preferred rates, last minute deals, travel planners, etc.

We travel all the time and really would like to get into a unit, but I am running scared now because of what they said to us, and how adament they were.  Fast talkers I guess.

We don't want a timeshare for Orlando, but one that we can trade easily as we only go to Orlando once in a while, not even close to annually.  Any advice would be appreciated!  I am just starting to research all of this on these threads.  could be a full-time job!

Thanks!!!!!!!


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 17, 2009)

*You certainly have been fed a diet of lies....*  Check out these threads per the "resale" comments:

What do I not get if I buy Marriott resale 
Marriott Timeshare Third Party Purchase Limitations 

And Marriott has all but ceased exercising ROFR in this tough economic climate - even for some unbelievably low resale prices. Here's a reference: http://dioxide45.tripod.com/rofr.html


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## jarta (Feb 17, 2009)

taxi,   ...   "We don't want a timeshare for Orlando, but one that we can trade easily as we only go to Orlando once in a while, not even close to annually. Any advice would be appreciated!"

I just came across your post while browsing TUG.  I am not familiar with Marriott trading procedures.  I own Starwood.  Nothing against Marriott.  Their places seem quite nice.

My advice would be to buy a timeshare where you most want to go in the season you most want to go there.  Please, do not buy your first timeshare at a very inflated price from a developer (Marriott or anyone else) where you don't want to vacation.

In this economy, there are plenty of good timeshare deals out there.  Do your DD here on TUG before buying anywhere.  GLTY!      ...   eom


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## falmouth3 (Feb 17, 2009)

You were told some "untruths".  Take a look at eBay and search for Marriott and timeshare.  What you see will knock your socks off.  Of course, the final selling prices are usually arrived at within the last moments of the bidding.

Do a search on the Marriott board here on TUG.  You will see what people are actually paying for Marriotts.  And it appears that the ROFR has been suspended for the time being so people are getting incredible deals.

There are also many other timeshare brands out there that you might want to look into.  If you haven't already become a member here, please do consider it because it's the best vacation related money you could spend.  Membership buys you access to the resort reviews, which I use extensively.

Good luck.  

Sue


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## calgal (Feb 17, 2009)

I notice you live in CA. You may want to look at the resales for Newport Coast Villas, Timber Lodge in South Lake Tahoe, or any of the three properties in Palm Desert.  I live in CA and bought in Orlando because it was at the time much cheaper to purchase in Orlando, but the price differential is not so steep now due to falling resale prices across the board. I own a platinum week and usually exchange it through II.
PS< I would not worry so much about the $895/5 nights package you prepurchased. While it's not a "deal", it sounds like fair market value, so be sure to use it while it is still valid. It sure beats spending $32K on a week that sells for $25K less on the resale market.


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## taxiismygame (Feb 17, 2009)

*Was just reading.........*

I just found the thread that you sent about what we don't get in buying resale.  It does have a lot of useful info.  I am going to continue reading and searching.

I appreciate the advice about not buying where we probably won't go often.  We travel so much, I am not sure that we will go to any 'one' place repeatedly, hence, my dilemma about where to buy. 

I would totally buy on ebay if I can get my head around all of the pros and cons of buying direct verses buying resale.  We would like to travel to Europe now that our children are much older, and we would love a Med. cruise, but still, is it worth it?  

It really looks as if their point system has been devalued, and seems like it is just a 'sing of the times, and of things to come.'  That in itself steers me away from buying direct.

Oh my stars, this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too intense for me.  My husband has left this up to me (I do not work outside the house, but as of today feel I have a full time job) and so I am trying to make the best and most educated decision that I can.

Thanks so so very much!  Keep the comments coming, I am open to one and all of them!


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## thinze3 (Feb 17, 2009)

Slow down and keep reading here on Tug.  

If this is your first timeshare, then DO NOT BUY FROM MARRIOTT!! As a matter of fact, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING yet.

After you learn a bit more here on Tug, then save 70% by buying a resale unit at a location you would like to go most often. Then Tuggers will help you learn the ins and outs of trading.

Glad you found this site before wasting a LOT of money.


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## Lawlar (Feb 17, 2009)

*Don't Buy From Marriott*

Marriott's sales reps are notorious for misrepresenting the facts to prospective buyers.  Here is my summary and a discussion of a sales presentation that we "survived" last year:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75468&highlight=Survived+Marriott's+Sales+Pitch

For the last two years I stayed at Timber Lodge for $299 for a week (rental rate).  Those who purchased units at Timber Lodge are paying more than twice that amount just for the yearly maintenance fees.

Marriott's prices are a ripoff.  If you must buy, buy resale.


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## m61376 (Feb 17, 2009)

You are getting good advice above. Relax, take a deep breath, and take the time to learn about timeshares, Marriott, locations and possibly even other timeshare systems if you like.

Given the pre-construction  status of the new Orlando property, it is plausible that there are no resales, so the salesperson may have couched that into sounding like it is impossible to buy resale. That said, even when ROFR was being exercised (which it was until the past few months with the credit market crisis), Marriott did let many units pass and there was an active resale market. The only real difference is that the real fire sales (the bargain basement prices that were hard to find, but the occasional desperate seller could be found) were generally nabbed by Marriott via ROFR, so that resale prices had been between a third off (for the hot properties) to around half off developer prices. Now that the market has plummeted and Marriott has not been exercising ROFR buys at even the hottest properties of half off or more (with some amazing Ebay bargains of 20-30% of developer pricing) have been seen.

The ONLY thing you lose by buying resale is the ability to trade for points.

Peruse the different properties and buy where you'd be happy going if you decide not to or are unable to get a trade for what you want any given year. Buy for use during the time frame you'd like to travel. Keep in mind that your family dynamics and thus vacation time needs may change (ex.- if you have young kids, in a few short years you will need school vacations; older kids means more flexibility, etc.). 

You mentioned those $1000 Ebay bargains- keep in mind these are off-season weeks. Great if you can exchange during Flexchange- last minute travel plans less than 59 days before travel can yield some amazing trades from those cheap weeks- but you need the family and job flexibility to take advantage of those trades. Don't count on a Bronze ski week getting you skiing over the winter or a hurricane season Caribbean week getting you to the Caribbean during prime season, a winter Hilton Head week getting you to HH over the summer, etc., outside of Flexchange. So don't lose sight of the fact that those cheap weeks, while they work great for some people, may be a maintenance fee eating albatross for you.

oops- see that you posted that your kids are older while I was typing. So school vacations may not be an issue for you-but that may be a consideration if you want to go with the kids and grandkids...something to keep in mind when deciding what will work best for you


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## dougp26364 (Feb 17, 2009)

taxiismygame said:


> I just found the thread that you sent about what we don't get in buying resale.  It does have a lot of useful info.  I am going to continue reading and searching.
> 
> I appreciate the advice about not buying where we probably won't go often.  We travel so much, I am not sure that we will go to any 'one' place repeatedly, hence, my dilemma about where to buy.
> 
> ...




While I love my Marriott weeks, if you don't plan on going the same place twice very often, you may be better served looking at on the the developers that have a points based reservation system instead. Points are more or less a commidity of exchange and can be used similar to how we use cash to buy goods and services. 

The best thing you can do is what everyone is telling you. Slow down, study the different timeshare developers and their systems and figure out what works best for you.


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## mike2200 (Feb 17, 2009)

*Marriott Sale??? Hmmm*

anyone else get this latest email from Marriott?

Email title: Save up to $11,875 with Marriott's Waiohai Beach Club!

also has Orlando on the list of sales (?)‏


http://timeshares.marriott-vacations.com/ownership/vacation-specials.jsp


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## thinze3 (Feb 17, 2009)

I knew they were offering big discounts for those buying two weeks, but some of these are for a single week purchase.



mike2200 said:


> anyone else get this latest email from Marriott?
> Email title: Save up to $11,875 with Marriott's Waiohai Beach Club!
> also has Orlando on the list of sales (?)‏
> 
> http://timeshares.marriott-vacations.com/ownership/vacation-specials.jsp


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## taxiismygame (Feb 17, 2009)

*You are right.............*

I now feel the need to buy a resale while the ROFR is still in tact.  I am not looking for a real bargain, just a good value.  I am going to CA next week, and will look at the Marriott's in Palm Desert, and try and get to the one in Newport.  

Our best friends live in Palm Desert, and this would be a good place for us to buy since I know we would use it.  Maybe I can convince my husband to retire there if I can get him out there to see how beautiful it is!

I would also like to buy a week in a tropical location as well.  I do miss the caribbean blue waters that southern Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean have that CA does not.

Gotta go, I think I need to find a brown bag...... I feel the hyper ventalating about to begin!!!  Breathe.....breathe....breathe.


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## WalnutBaron (Feb 17, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> If this is your first timeshare, then DO NOT BUY FROM MARRIOTT!! As a matter of fact, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING yet.



This is the best advice you've been given.  The economy is a wreck, and resale prices for timeshare weeks--even the top notch ones like Starwood and Marriott--will only get cheaper as owners bail out because they cannot continue to pay the maintenance fees.

My second to thinze's advice: take a deep breath, slow down, and resolve to read everything you can find here at TUG for at least a month so you're an educated buyer.  Here's another piece of advice: look at the TUG resort reviews here and make a short list of the properties you think you'd be interested in owning.  Then run a search for those properties on eBay and follow the auctions and save them for future reference.  Do NOT bid on those auctions.  Why?  Because the supply of available weeks at the best timeshare locations is huge right now.  If you can't find a week you're interested in right away, just be patient.  Your week and your property WILL come available for the reasons I've stated above.

It is a terrible time to be a seller of timeshares, which means you're in a fantastic position as a potential buyer.  Patience and education will get you a great vacation value.


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## falmouth3 (Feb 17, 2009)

You don't need to buy anything in a hurry.  The sales will always be there.  Perhaps these firesale prices will go up in a few months, perhaps they won't.  But there are *always* quality timeshares available on the resale market.

One thing I feel that I should mention is that you will want to buy a quality week.  Do not skimp on quality time - go for the high season, so it has the highest value as an exchange.  (Unless of course *you* want to go to the same place every year on the off-season)  Likewise, a 1 BR won't be as valuable as a 2 BR.  Keep in mind that sometime in the future you will want to sell it.  If you own something that no one else wants, you won't be able to give it away.   

You may want to take your time and rent in a few places to get an idea of whether you like timesharing.  Remember that once you own, you are responsible for the yearly maintenance fees as well as any special assessments that might pop up.

Even with all these "warnings", I think timesharing has been an incredible benefit to our vacations.  My husband is even a believer!!

Sue


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## stevens397 (Feb 17, 2009)

And while you're searching eBay, also check out Platinum weeks at Westin Mission Hills. We bought resale last summer for what looked to be a ridiculously low price - $7,000!  Now you can pick one up for half the price.  

And they are fabulous traders.  Purchasing somewhere you can drive to greatly increases your flexibility for years you either don't get a desired trade or are not in the mood for a major travel undertaking.

I have enough weeks for me and my family.  If I didn't, I'd be in eBay heaven!


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## Latravel (Feb 17, 2009)

There are a couple of comments you made that may make you consider buying from the developer.  I know this is going against what most have said here, but the resale owners tend to be more outspoken.

I think the best advice you can get right now is to wait.  If you don't intend to go to the same place year after year, and if you would like to visit Europe using your timeshare, you are a candidate for purchasing direct from Marriott to get points.  

BUT, I would look and research and take my time.  I would look for a resort that is giving away many (over 400,000) points as incentives.  If they don't offer you a substantial amount of points, I would walk away.


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## KathyPet (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree with LA travel.  Don't buy someplace unless you would be happy going there on a regular basis.    Why would you want to buy in Orlando if your kids are older and you wouldn't want to go there on a regular basis?  I also agree that you should not buy unless you get a minimum of 350,000 incentive points and that does not include the points for trading in your week for points in the year that you purchase it which would add a bunch more.  As for buying direct vs resale you have already said that your kids are getting older and that you would be interested in European trips and cruises.    Do not listen to those on this board who tell you never to buy from Marriott.   There are many of us who purchased from Marriott directly who have had many wonderful European vacations using our points and who do see value in them.  You have to decide if the points usage is of value to you.  If you want to travel to Europe you will not find timeshares in the major cities. You will need to stay in a hotel.  In addition you can trade your Marriott points for cruises.  You need to look at the Marriott rewards web site and view the various ways points can be utilized and then make a decision based on what works for you.  The posters on this board who will yell at you and tell you never ever to be buy direct are trying to impose their value system on others and that is simply not right IMHO.


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## capjak (Feb 17, 2009)

I have never bought from developer but would not total discount it if they would be willing to meet my demands:

If you buy a 31,000 Orlando or XX (you pick the place) timeshare that wll be worth say $9,000 to $16,000 resale in 5 years, than at least make up the difference in points. 

Marriott values points at $1250 per 100,000 (and I am sure they make a profit at that ratio). Therefore they would need to give 1,760,000 ($22,000 worth of points) to 1,200,000 points ($15,000 worth of points) too almost break even. 

As I pm'd you I would not buy until you research completely and if you can cancel your $900 explorer package I would do that as well.  Look at other systems, you may find you need to do a combo to get what you want (i.e. Starwood EOYand Marriott EOY).

Just some thoughts.


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## ldanna (Feb 17, 2009)

You're in the right place. I am also new here, I'm reading a lot, and although sometimes I ask some basic questions, there's always someone to help. Thanks a lot, BTW.

Maybe, IMO, if you're not plaining to go always to the same place, a 2 bedroom with lockoff capability in a good week (platinum or gold) would be very good to trade: you split you 2bd in a 1br and a studio, and maybe exchance them for two weeks with 2 bd each. The other week you might want you can make a gateway (you can stay in a Marriott resort, off season, 2bd, for less than US$500)

It is not certain that you will be able to do those exchanges, but I've seem some examples here.

If you're plaining to go always to same place (or at least would like to go very often), you should buy the week you want, where you want, and use the gateways for the other weeks.

Keep reading here.


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## cp73 (Feb 17, 2009)

Keep your money for a while and do what others have said above. Also listen to this video clip from nightline which includes an interview with Brian, the founder of Tug.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6260205


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## Latravel (Feb 17, 2009)

_"Marriott values points at $1250 per 100,000 (and I am sure they make a profit at that ratio). Therefore they would need to give 1,760,000 ($22,000 worth of points) to 1,200,000 points ($15,000 worth of points) too almost break even."_

OR, the amount of points you get as incentives should buy you vacations worth $15-22,000 (using dollar values from your example).  The incentives need to be enough to, at least, allow you to break even from day 1 in order to justify the purchase.  My husband would say the flexibililty is worth enough that we don't have to break even at day 1.  If we broke even in a couple of years, the benefits eventually outweigh the extra costs.  It sounds like the OP wants the flexibility.  


_"The posters on this board who will yell at you and tell you never ever to be buy direct are trying to impose their value system on others and that is simply not right IMHO."_

Well said.


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## mamadot (Feb 17, 2009)

I own 3 Marriott timeshares....all resales......all within driving distance of where I live. The only thing I do not get is Marriott pts.

I have gotten wonderful trades with Summitt Watch in Park City and Shadow Ridge in Palm Desert. They are both lock offs. They both get me "bonus" weeks when I deposit them into II. My friend has gotten similar trades into Phucket, Spain, Orlando, Hawaii, (all three Marriott islands) and more. My Newport Coast is not a lock off, but is a Platinum summer week and you can get almost anything you want using that week. I like going there so do not deposit it or trade it often. I did rent it one summer.

You do want to buy platinum or gold weeks to do some good trading. If you are flexiable on travel dates and can travel when kids are in school you can just about go anywhere.

There have been some unbeliveable prices on Ebay lately with Marriott not using their ROFR.

Do your research here on Tug. Ask questions and you will pick up so much valuable information in no time!

We love our timeshares!


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## Beverley (Feb 17, 2009)

We bought all but two of our timeshares from the developer.  Now that I have said that, I will say that we did this when they were at fairly reasonable pre-construction prices.  

With today's economic times and resales dropping so low because of the unfortunate circumstances of some, I would definitely consider resale.  The best advice that I was given and I see given here is to buy where you might like to go back.  Although you may have many years of varied travel, the time will likely come that you may want to slow the travel down and just relax at a location easy to get to and where you like..... As you mentioned, maybe Palm Desert.

Marriott has not been exercising the right of first refusal lately, but this could change at any time.  I would expect you have at least through year end.  

We have been extremely happy with our purchases and the quality of the resorts we have traded to.  Go on a few more presentations.  You will become more and more familiar with the process etc.  Starwood has a good brand in Palm Desert also.  You may want to go to both Marriott and Starwood (Westin) while you are there.

In any case, enjoy the hunt.  

Beverley


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## falmouth3 (Feb 17, 2009)

If you're only thinking about Marriott, then this probably isn't relative, but if you're looking at other points systems, remember that a point in one system isn't the same as a point in another system, much like a dollar isn't the same value as a euro, or peso or yen.  

The Wyndham system was selling at about 1 or 2 cents a point a couple of years ago and now I'm seeing some larger point packages (300000 points or more) selling for 0.1 cents per point.  A  2BR prime week seems to be about 154000 to 184000 points per week.  I'm not a points owner, so I"m not an expert, but going with a system like this allows you go spend as much as you need for a particular vacation and sometimes you can use points for a partial week.  Need a getaway for 2 in November?  That will be far fewer points than a place that provides sleeping accommodations for 8 in July on the beach.


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## ldanna (Feb 17, 2009)

mamadot said:


> I own 3 Marriott timeshares....all resales......all within driving distance of where I live. The only thing I do not get is Marriott pts.
> 
> I have gotten wonderful trades with Summitt Watch in Park City and Shadow Ridge in Palm Desert. They are both lock offs. They both get me "bonus" weeks when I deposit them into II. My friend has gotten similar trades into Phucket, Spain, Orlando, Hawaii, (all three Marriott islands) and more. My Newport Coast is not a lock off, but is a Platinum summer week and you can get almost anything you want using that week. I like going there so do not deposit it or trade it often. I did rent it one summer.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Zac495 (Feb 17, 2009)

By the way, look into other options like Hilton. I love their point system. There are many timeshares - you don't know enough to jump into any one yet. I love Marriott - great, great quality. Hilton is also good -and less expensive - and more flexible - but has less locations. Read all the boards here - not just Marriott. Rent for a year. Have fun. This is a good time to buy!


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## jme (Feb 18, 2009)

*Buy Resale, Buy Often*

buy resale, buy often.  

there's absolutely no need to buy from marriott , or any developer...... right of first refusal has changed due to market conditions, and you CAN pass it rather easily now. the points thing is no longer worth purchasing from developer, and that used to be THE only difference, practically speaking, for anything you would EVER wish to do with your week, but if it's not worth it, forget it.  so, I'll repeat again, don't need it? forget it.  

we've owned 5 weeks for over a decade (from developer), and we've NEVER traded for points anyway, even tho we could----but it's not worth it----you only get half a week's worth of time for each trade, at a hotel rather than a 2-BR resort. why do THAT? So, i haven't.  

 your options with a developer week: occupy, trade normally, trade for points

your options with a resale week: occupy, trade normally

(if "points" is no longer worth it, then it's all the same, and everyone here on TUG knows it, even those of us ---yes, me---who bought multiple weeks from developer) ...save your money and BUY TWO or THREE weeks, instead of one!!!!!

right now, you can get unbelievable deals on weeks via resale, but NOT thru developer, so trust us.  we've been doing this for many, many years, and we all concur... points should be gained by other means, like using the Marriott Rewards Credit Card, but NOT thru trading for points.  Marty (jme)


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_"if "points" is no longer worth it, then it's all the same, and everyone here on TUG knows it"_

Not true.  Points are not worth it to YOU, not everyone on TUG.  I have a completely different view.  

Have you ever read the Marriott forum on Flyer talk?  If points are "no longer worth it", why is there a whole community of very accomplished executives/business people  who spend a lot of time and effort to get and use points?


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 18, 2009)

Obviously points have value - I don't think anyone will question that.
Show me someone that will turn down 10k+ or more points for free....   no way!

But it becomes more of a question:


Would you really pay, say, $1000 dollars for $750 worth of points?
Would you really pay $1000 dollars for $1000 worth of points that can be used later?
Would you really pay $1000 dollars for $1300 worth of points -- that can be used in the next few years, especially with no guarantee that those points will hold their value?
Also, one thing that really has confused me:
In many (not all) cases "breaking even" or "nearly breaking even" seems to be a benchmark. It seems to me if that's the case, then using the cash for future trips (instead of points) offers the most flexibility....  




Latravel said:


> _"if "points" is no longer worth it, then it's all the same, and everyone here on TUG knows it"_
> 
> Not true.  Points are not worth it to YOU, not everyone on TUG.  I have a completely different view.
> 
> Have you ever read the Marriott forum on Flyer talk?  If points are "no longer worth it", why is there a whole community of very accomplished executives/business people  who spend a lot of time and effort to get and use points?


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## m61376 (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"if "points" is no longer worth it, then it's all the same, and everyone here on TUG knows it"_
> 
> Not true.  Points are not worth it to YOU, not everyone on TUG.  I have a completely different view.
> 
> Have you ever read the Marriott forum on Flyer talk?  If points are "no longer worth it", why is there a whole community of very accomplished executives/business people  who spend a lot of time and effort to get and use points?



You have to put it in context. Marty is not implying that points are totally worthless (he even mentioned gaining points by other means) but that trading in a valuable timeshare week (and, or course, the week has inherent value because we paid $$'s up front for it) for points is not a worthwhile deal. The executives/business people you cite on flyer talk are getting points by business travel, which is a whole other deal; they are not paying for points by giving up a valuable week.

And, I know you don't agree with this- I know you still feel that, despite the current devaluations of the travel packages (so that, in essence, that European trip for a week now costs in the vicinity of 3 weeks of timeshare trades versus two weeks as previously), it is still worth it to you, others feels that the real cost of trading in a week makes buying from the developer too expensive, especially in this market.

Since there are a few newcomers here, I think I can summarize both our stances fairly:
-one perspective is that the up front incentive points, added to trading in a week or so for points, is worth the cost of business class tickets and perhaps as much as $800-$1000/night, so that the trip can be worth in the 12K area. Furthermore, you can trade weeks on an on-going basis, and get a similar trip with 2 or 3 trades (possibly 2 if you use a Marriott Visa and accumulate a lot of points in other ways) costing 2 or 3X the annual MF's + 2 or 3 x the trade fee of $104.
-the other perspective is two-fold. First, the valuation that should be placed on the "free" trip should be what you would normally spend. That is, if you would normally spend the money for business class tickets (of course, who wouldn't love them) then you saved the $$'s for them. But if you are normally too cheap (like me) then the plane fare value would be the cost of the way you'd normally travel. Similarly, if you normally go to Europe and pay rack rate, then that's the hotel rate you should add in. If you have gone to lesser hotels or have gotten good hotel discounts on equivalent hotels (as I have several times) then, again, that's the valuation you should use.

Secondly, there is the disagreement about how much the week being traded in costs. I posted this last week, and I think it is worth repeating here:
"I am glad buying directly has worked out so well for you. I am just pointing out that others may value things differently and the 10, 15 or 20K up front savings may not be worth it. As for me, I'd rather keep the extra money in my savings (remember, every 10K has a lost opportunity cost of let's say $500 per year) and maintain the use of my timeshare. Just remember, aside from the 150,000 or 200,000 up front incentive points gotten without trading in the unit, those 100,000 trade in points come at a cost. For example, if you paid an extra 10K and trade in your unit every other year: at today's package prices, it would take ~3 trades to accumulate the 300K or so points needed. That means 3 trade in fees of $104 ($312), 3 annual MF's paid for a unit that you can't use (let's say $1000 per week making it $3000) and 5 or 6 years of lost opportunity costs (interest you would have earned on the extra 10K sitting in the bank; and, yes, I think it is fair to add all the cost here, since you paid the extra money up front with the only benefit being derived is the ability to trade for points) adding up to another $2500 or $3000 (depending upon whether you traded in years 1,3 and 5 or years 2, 4 and 6). So, we are talking about ~$5800 cost at a minimum that your "free" vacation just ran.

Plus, aside from ever increasing MF's and static trade-in point values, you have to consider that you also shelled out $$'s for a week that you aren't getting use of. There is a value to usage-that's why, after all, we are willing to shell out the big bucks in the first place. The typical sales pitch included a break even point, so to speak- several years down the road where to cost of renting would have paid for your up front cost. You lose that use value when you trade in for points, so that has to be considered a cost as well. One could value it at Marriott's rental rate (which would be equivalent to valuing the free trips at the hotel rack rate), but I wouldn't the same way I wouldn't for the same reason I feel you need to value the trip at what you would normally pay for a similar trip. Many weeks rent at $2000-2500, with some even demanding more of a premium. For arguments sake I will value a week's of usage worth at $2000. So, giving up 3 weeks costs another $6000."

So, my outlook is that, on an on-going basis, I am shelling out about 12K for a trip worth about 12K. So for me, and some others here with similar outlooks, it doesn't make sense. Again, I know you share a different opinion with others. If Marriott again offers half a million points up front it MAY make sense, depending upon the cost difference, if you are willing to pay that cost difference up front for that first terrific trip and recognize that on-going those free trips really aren't a bargain, but give you another option in your usage.


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## capjak (Feb 18, 2009)

flyerbobcat said:


> Also, one thing that really has confused me:
> In many (not all) cases "breaking even" or "nearly breaking even" seems to be a benchmark. It seems to me if that's the case, then using the cash for future trips (instead of points) offers the most flexibility....



When I state break even it is resale costs versus developer cost.  If you break even between these two options than you are getting the extra flexibility of being able to turn unit in for points (in those years you don't want to or can not use the timeshare and it would go unused).  Believe me there are times when people do not use their TS and do no rent ending up with several banked weeks in RCI/II that again they never use.


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## Beverley (Feb 18, 2009)

Sorry ... I have to chime in with my 2 cents....

Points may be less worth it today because they have just been devalued and the cost of developer weeks has increased dramatically. however, the costs of hotels and airfare in a regular market (not right now since they are all somewhat crushed with the economy) have been increasing rather sharply too.  I have to say that the points have always been attractive to us and we have made out  extremely well with numerous trips for ourselves and our daughters for free along with airfare (coach and business class) both domestically and abroad. 

Because we own multiple weeks we started off alternating depositing for points.  Combining this with our first day incentives got us off to a lucrative start.  We only alt deposited for points the first 4 years.  Overall, we have more than offset the costs of the timeshares and MF's with the savings from the trips.

During that time we purchased a "points cow" resort that we deposit every year for points.  This resort was purchased through Marriott (resale division) and gets 110K points every year.  The MF have always been lower than all the others (between $600nd $700 until recently when they are now at $900).

This alone allows us to get a travel package every other year (slightly short) which gets us 120K air miles and a week in a hotel.  Of course the hotel week was 7 days before January.  The hotel week while not as good as a 2 bedroom condo with kitchen, it is still a week and we could book into a Residence Inn for a kitchen. We feel that we give up 2 weeks but get one in return along with airfare.  For us the offset has been worth it.   

Much depends on the amount of points, the frequency of being able to trade for the points, the initial cost of the week, and the maintenance fees paid each year. This is harder and harder to get as developer prices increase and MF's seem to be going through the roof.  

If I were doing it now and not 10 years ago, I would buy resale because of today's market and the backing off of the ROFR.  I would continue to take tours and learn and consider some develop weeks with good points return in the future.

Happy hunting!  

Beverley


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

I must say that I get quite weary of the points/no points discussion. For me it boils down to this.  I simply do not want to use a timeshare for two weeks every single year.  There are places that I want to go where timeshares are simply not available e.g.Paris, France, London or other ways of travel that I enjoy like cruises.  If you want to simply go to a timeshare year after year and never see yourself doing any other kind of travel then buy resale but don't forget you either use it (either at your home resort or through a trade), rent it if you can or loose it.   My points give me other options like hotel stays and even cruise credits should I choose to use them that way.  At least I have that choice.  When we bought our first timeshare (MMC in 94) we had young children and I never even dreamed that someday they would be grown and gone and that my husband and I would want to take our vacations in ways other than timesharing.  But now we do and I am happy that I have the points to do that.  
We have friends who own two weeks of timesharing not through one of the major companies.  Over the last five years they have had two years where they simply let their weeks go.  They just wanted to do other things with their vacation time then go to a timeshare.  Of course, they still had to pay their maintenance fees.  What a waste of money!
As far as gaining points other ways than trading in your week for them Good Luck!  Unless you are traveling for business on a regular basis you will have to do a lot of charging to accumulate enough points for a decent travel package that I can get in one year from trading for points.
If you always want to go to a timeshare for your vacation then buy resale but if you ever dream of trips to Europe or a cruise in the Green Isles then you better carefully consider your options.


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

One more comment here:  I purchased our MMC platinum from Marriott in 1994 for $14,500..  When I spoke to them last June and asked about resale they advised me that they were currently selling platinum MMC for $21,500.  After their commission I would net my initial investment back.


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## Beverley (Feb 18, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> I must say that I get quite weary of the points/no points discussion. For me it boils down to this.  I simply do not want to use a timeshare for two weeks every single year.  There are places that I want to go where timeshares are simply not available e.g.Paris, France, London or other ways of travel that I enjoy like cruises.  If you want to simply go to a timeshare year after year and never see yourself doing any other kind of travel then buy resale but don't forget you either use it (either at your home resort or through a trade), rent it if you can or loose it.   My points give me other options like hotel stays and even cruise credits should I choose to use them that way.  At least I have that choice.  When we bought our first timeshare (MMC in 94) we had young children and I never even dreamed that someday they would be grown and gone and that my husband and I would want to take our vacations in ways other than timesharing.  But now we do and I am happy that I have the points to do that.
> We have friends who own two weeks of timesharing not through one of the major companies.  Over the last five years they have had two years where they simply let their weeks go.  They just wanted to do other things with their vacation time then go to a timeshare.  Of course, they still had to pay their maintenance fees.  What a waste of money!
> As far as gaining points other ways than trading in your week for them Good Luck!  Unless you are traveling for business on a regular basis you will have to do a lot of charging to accumulate enough points for a decent travel package that I can get in one year from trading for points.
> If you always want to go to a timeshare for your vacation then buy resale but if you ever dream of trips to Europe or a cruise in the Green Isles then you better carefully consider your options.



Nicely put ....    :whoopie:  

Beverley


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## timeos2 (Feb 18, 2009)

*Not anymore*



KathyPet said:


> One more comment here:  I purchased our MMC platinum from Marriott in 1994 for $14,500..  When I spoke to them last June and asked about resale they advised me that they were currently selling platinum MMC for $21,500.  After their commission I would net my initial investment back.



Based on the recent (9-12 months) of resale prices I wouldn't plan on seeing anymore then 50% (or less) of your purchase cost if you sold (still not that bad and you don't want to sell anyway, right?) You are kidding yourself if you think the value is what it was a year or two ago. Things have REALLY changed since then.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

The bottom line on the points argument is that it's not a logical one. Certain folks overpaid by tens of thousands of dollars for a product that, but for one aspect, could be obtained for less. To justify that gap, they cling to a near-rabid defense of trading timeshare weeks for devalued points, despite overwhelming evidence that it's an awful deal.

The sooner we all understand and accept this, on both sides, the better for everyone.


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

I am referring to selling my MMC through Marriott resales.  They have not lowered their resale prices from what they were a year ago..  If I decided to sell Through EBAY or TUG yes I would have to let it go at bargin basement prices which is why I would never sell that way.  People who sell their timeshare through other means besides going to Marriott fall into one of the following categories:

1.  They need or want to sell a unit at a resort that is not "sold out" and thus cannot sell through Marriott resale dept.
2.  They do own in a sold out community but do not know that Marriott operates a resale operation
3.  They do own in a sold out community but Marriott has a "wait list" of sellers for that location and they cannot wait until their name reaches the top of the wait list.
4.  They have some over inflated figure in their head that they think they can sell for.  I have actually seen resale sellers price their units for what marriott is currently selling them for.  Of course resellers cannot offer the points option or the bonus incentive points that Marriott can.  These people are really dreaming!

I do not need to sell mine and in fact I may never sell it but if I do you can best believe that I will sell through Marriott.  It it takes me longer than so be it but I will have less hassle and get the highest price that way


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_"near-rabid defense of trading timeshare ...The sooner we all understand and accept this, on both sides, the better for everyone."_

Wow!  Very offensive and condescending comments!  Is this discussion really worth these put downs?  If it makes you feel calmer, you are right.  Some people should buy resale.  Just hope Marriott doesn't ever change the program (since we see they never do  ).

By the way, do you own a Marriott?


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## larue (Feb 18, 2009)

*Developer vs. Resale*

I just bought a 2 bedroom mountain view lockout at Ko Olina for $12,000.  Developer pricing is at $40,000.  That means that I have $28,000 in the bank drawing interest (about 3% in my savings account) on an annual basis until I decide how to otherwise use that money.  

I can buy up to 50,000 miles a year if I want to for $600, which is less than the interest I will earn on the savings on an annual basis.  I typically rack up another 70,000 miles using my Marriott rewards card, so I have, if I want, $120,000 or so points every year for $600 plus what I already spend on business and personal travel.  In the meantime, I have my $28,000 invested drawing 3% a year ($840) and I have use of my timeshare every year, to use it, lock it out, trade it or some portion of it, for another timeshare or for a cruise.

Assuming you can get the same deal, it is best to buy on the second market.  There is no way I can think of to justify the difference in developer vs. secondary market in the current environment.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

There's nothing offensive about it. It's an adjective. 

It's amazing to me that some folks can express their opinions so strongly, then get offended when others express their own with equal passion.

And to answer your question, no, I don't currently own a Marriott. I have in the past, though (as many on this board know) and will almost certainly again. As for changes in the program, I find the veiled threat that resale purchasers may someday - in some future world - be discriminated against somewhat funny whether it's coming from a slick-talking salesperson or someone on TUG. Why funny? Because it's developer purchasers that Marriott has hurt by devaluing points and devaluing the rental program. They've never done anything to hurt resale purchasers.


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

ondeadlin - do you own a Marriott timeshare?  

_"There is no way I can think of to justify the difference in developer vs. secondary market in the current environment."_

So true.  The price difference is very large right now and a developer purchase cannot be justified, in this current economy.  I suspect, imho, Marriott may make some other changes to the program to get people to buy from them.  Obviously, they're not giving more points.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Answered above, LA, missed it the first time through.

As an aside, I've also earned and spent about 2 million MR points.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> So true.  The price difference is very large right now and a developer purchase cannot be justified, in this current economy.  I suspect, imho, Marriott may make some other changes to the program to get people to buy from them.  Obviously, they're not giving more points.



No, they'll just keep hustling people the way they always have.

That's how developer timeshare sales work. They lure in large numbers of prospects with trinkets and free stays, put on a hard sell full of half-truths, and if they yield one sale out of 100 tours, they're doing just fine.

They don't need to change the equation, because the people they're trying to sell to, in the vast majority of cases, know almost nothing about points or timesharing.

And that's not a criticism of Marriott, that's a criticism of the business model in general.


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_"Because it's developer purchasers that Marriott has hurt by devaluing points and devaluing the rental program. They've never done anything to hurt resale purchasers."_

Very interesting point of view and I oddly see where you're coming from. What if I believe the reason my points have been devalued is because of rising hotel costs and therefore I don't mind because the other option is paying cash?  What if i'm really happy I have ANY points at all because I don't want to pay such expensive hotel costs since I like to travel and stay in nice hotels?  Have I been hurt?


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Heidi, as I've said above, you can attempt to justify it in many ways, but we ultimately should agree to disagree and stop rehashing this whole thing, because we're not going to agree.

You think purchasing a timeshare to trade for MRP can be justified. I think that's crazy. You believe you have the numbers to make a logical argument, I think you're going through a Twister-like exercise of finding extreme circumstances in which the case might be made, you disagree with my opinion of your opinion.

It's an endless circle. The bottom line on points devaluation - to me - is that people were sold the idea that X-number of points would buy them a week in a Marriott, and now Marriott has changed the program so that's not the case, AND raised MFs every year. If you really like that, and you think it's a good way to do business, again, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_"because the people they're trying to sell to, in the vast majority of cases, know almost nothing about points or timesharing."_

I read somewhere the group that buys the most Marriott timeshares are current Marriott owners.  The average Marriott owner has purchased 4 weeks from Marriott.  One could say the most knowledgable group of Marriott timeshares are current owners.  How do these statistics fit in your theory?  

How come, in the past, owners were coming for more Marriott timeshares?


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't believe that's true, Heidi, and base my opinion on a personal relationship with an MVCI exec and what he's told me in the past.


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

IMHO the near rabid  people are the ones that come on here and in no uncertain terms and usually in capital letters tell potential owners that they should never, never under any circumstances purchase direct from Marriott.  At least those of us who did buy direct will usually tell a potential purchaser that they need to decide if the ability to trade for points is important to them either now or in the future.  We suggest that they think years down the road and decide if they always, for the rest of their lives or at least for as long as they own their timeshare, are always going to want to go to a timeshare for vacation year after year.  If they decide that the point option is not important then they should buy direct but at least we do not scream at them and tell them they are idiots for not purchasing resale they way some of the posters on this board do.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

I think the situation you describe used to exist in some ways, Kathy, but lately it's really shifted. The vast, vast majority of Tuggers have come to a consensus that it makes no sense to buy developer from Marriott under the current conditions (rock bottom resale prices, mediocre incentives from Marriott, and please note I'm saying current conditions).

But there are a handful of people, easily less than a half-dozen, who have really become, yes, rabid, about insisting there's still a case. And it seems like the more people take the opposite opinion, the more rabid they become.

And, again, everyone's entitled to their opinion.


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

I point you to the #7 posting on this very thread which states "DO NOT BUY FROM MARRIOTT" in capital letters.  I can search and find a lot of other threads with this same type message.  Now who is being rabid?


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

When you take that post in context, he's telling the person not to buy from anyone, to get educated about timesharing. That's common advice on TUG, and - I think we'd all agree - great advice.

It hardly compares with the repeated and lengthy screeds by the same 3 or 4 people, again, and again, and again, on every thread, making the exact same defense of trading for points (points which, again, I know and love).


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

See my post on the "is it worthwhile to buy from Marriott" poll thread.  If someone can come up with something to do with the 7 weeks of timesharing that I would have had left over in the past 7 years after enjoying some alternative vacations I will listen.    I did not use marriott points for any of those vacations but being able to trade them for points has given me a nice stash and relieved me of the burden of tying to get rid of 7 weeks that I wasn't going to use.  This year is still another example.  We are taking a two week Alaskacruise tour in June.  I traded both my remaining weeks for points and I still have a 2008 week banked with II that I have to use in 2010.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Kathy, do I understand correctly that you didn't use your timeshare for 7 straight years? If that's the case, it's a sign that there's a big gap between how you use your timeshare and how most on TUG do.

I mean, if someone came on TUG, and said, "I'm not going to use my timeshare for 7 straight years ..." almost everyone here would say, well, maybe you shouldn''t buy a timeshare. Actually, they'd say you definitely shouldn't buy one. And, if what you're saying is that you've got multiple timeshares, and you've found you can't use 7 weeks worth of them over a few years, I think most people would say you've got too many weeks (particularly given developer prices).

I find it a very personal example - and I'm glad your happy with your purchase - but it hardly seems like a good basis on which to be giving advice, or to justify someone else really look hard at points.


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## thinze3 (Feb 18, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> I point you to the #7 posting on this very thread which states "DO NOT BUY FROM MARRIOTT" in capital letters.  I can search and find a lot of other threads with this same type message.  Now who is being rabid?




That was me.  

Guess what, I bought resale and then bought my second unit from Marriott. Why? Because I wanted to enjoy a taste of both sides. I still have about half million points in the bank and hope to use most, if not all of them, next summer in Europe.

Times have changed drastically since I made that purchase in 2007. The bottom fell out of the resale market, maintenence fees skyrocketed, and Marriott greatly devalued my points. My advice now is DO NOT BUY FROM MARRIOTT. We have not seen any price breaks coupled with HUGE points incentives recently to justify doing so. IMHO


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## KathyPet (Feb 18, 2009)

No, what I said was that we owned three Marriott time shares which means that over 7 years we had to do something with 21 weeks.  Of those 21 weeks of vacation time over the last 7 years we have taken a total of 3 cruises for 5 weeks and a two week trip to Ireland thus we had a total of 7 weeks of time sharing out of 21 weeks that we did not use our time share because we did other things with our vacation time.  If we had not had the ability to trade for points we would have had to do something with those 7 weeks that we did not use.  Banking them with Interval makes no sense because it just adds to our 3 weeks a year, Marriott was not interested in renting our weeks out the last couple of times i called them and i am not willing to go through the hassle of trying to rent them myself plus there is no guarantee I even could have rented them.  So what I am asking is what I was supposed to do with all those left over weeks if I could not have traded them for points and had to use them or lose them.?


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 18, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> See my post on the "is it worthwhile to buy from Marriott" poll thread.  If someone can come up with something to do with the 7 weeks of timesharing that I would have had left over in the past 7 years after enjoying some alternative vacations I will listen.    I did not use marriott points for any of those vacations but being able to trade them for points has given me a nice stash and relieved me of the burden of tying to get rid of 7 weeks that I wasn't going to use.  This year is still another example.  We are taking a two week Alaskacruise tour in June.  I traded both my remaining weeks for points and I still have a 2008 week banked with II that I have to use in 2010.



This response to your posting on that thread made a lot of sense to me....


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Again, I don't think your situation is good evidence that points work, because I don't think we've got a lot of people coming to TUG for advice who want to buy 3 weeks. But Kathy, I think the obvious answer is you should own two weeks (since you've got three, and you're not using a third of your weeks). 

I only say that because you asked my opinion. Obviously you're free to do whatever you want with your time and money.

And, on that note, I'm out of this topic and the MR debate. Shouldn't have stepped back into it in the first place. As I said above, it's become a consensus opinion versus a very vocal, and very hardcore minority that I believe feels a need to justify a large and unnecessary financial commitment. That's my opinion, and my opinion only.

I'll leave the topic with this thought: There's always been a minority "Church of MR Points" here on TUG, but there's never been more room in the pews.


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 18, 2009)

*All Timeshares (Even High End) Are Used-Used-Used.*




Latravel said:


> Some people should buy resale.


So therefore, why shouldn't everybody buy timeshares resale ? 

Why should anybody pay new prices for an item that's no such thing ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

I'll be completely honest...  I want the points, both incentive and trade, and I can afford it.  


Actually, since the vast majority of Marriott owners purchased directly from Marriott (over 90%), it's the other way around.  You're one of the vocal minority!


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## m61376 (Feb 18, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> So therefore, why shouldn't everybody buy timeshares resale ?
> 
> Why should anybody pay new prices for an item that's no such thing ?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Because if everyone was so timeshare savvy that they bought resale, there would be no developer purchases made and, hence, no new resales and no new developments (assuming that new resorts will again be forthcoming when the economy rebounds).


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## m61376 (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> I'll be completely honest...  I want the points, both incentive and trade, and I can afford it.
> 
> 
> Actually, since the vast majority of Marriott owners purchased directly from Marriott (over 90%), it's the other way around.  You're one of the vocal minority!



That's true- but you are assuming that most purchases are direct because people feel that's where the value lies. I would bet that most purchases are direct because most purchasers don't know any better. That is not to say that all developer purchasers are uninformed, but the vast majority of them are oblivious to the resale market.

And, btw, don't make the presumption that those who advocate buying resales are unable to afford a developer purchase. I think many would just rather spend our money other places (for me, that would be shopping on our trips  ).


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## stevens397 (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"Because it's developer purchasers that Marriott has hurt by devaluing points and devaluing the rental program. They've never done anything to hurt resale purchasers."_
> 
> Very interesting point of view and I oddly see where you're coming from. What if I believe the reason my points have been devalued is because of rising hotel costs and therefore I don't mind because the other option is paying cash?  What if i'm really happy I have ANY points at all because I don't want to pay such expensive hotel costs since I like to travel and stay in nice hotels?  Have I been hurt?



I have no interest in the discussion of whether or not trading for points is worth it - there will NEVER be agreement and that's fine.

But I can promise that part of the sales pitch is NOT saying that "you can trade this week in for 100,000 Marriott Rewards points" and leaving it at that.  They tell you that your week will be worth a week at this or that hotel in Hawaii, NY, etc.

Your argument is that it's fair since hotel rates go up, but so do their prices for their timeshares!  I most definitely appreciate that point redemption must in some way be related to current rates.  But I cannot be swayed in my conviction that when that is done, so should redemption rates for turning in one's timeshare.  When I turn that timeshare in for points, Marriott will rent it for more than they did years ago, just like they will charge more for their hotel rooms.  It seems that only one party gets screwed here!


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Actually, since the vast majority of Marriott owners purchased directly from Marriott (over 90%), it's the other way around.  You're one of the vocal minority!



"Here on TUG" is the qualifier in that phrase, and ignoring a key fact to support a certain version of reality doesn't surprise me in the least.

And, again, never more room in the pews.


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

I really try to avoid assuming people are stupid and/or uninformed.  Everyone has access to a computer and can get information, just like you did.  What you know is not top secret as it's readily available information.  Maybe others just don't agree with your point of view?  


_"ignoring a key fact to support a certain version of reality doesn't surprise me in the least"_

Hey!  I thought you were out of this topic!  Welcome back! 

I think limiting your community to only TUG Marriott owners, instead of the entire population of Marriott owners, "is ignoring a key fact to support a certain version of reality".


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

(deleted because of misunderstanding)


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_"...that when that is done, so should redemption rates for turning in one's timeshare"_

Couldn't agree with you more.  Hopefully Marriott revisits this unfair situation?


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

My posts are out of order...

When I typed this...
I really try to avoid assuming people are stupid and/or uninformed. Everyone has access to a computer and can get information, just like you did. What you know is not top secret as it's readily available information. Maybe others just don't agree with your point of view? 

It was in response to this from m61376...
_"I would bet that most purchases are direct because most purchasers don't know any better. That is not to say that all developer purchasers are uninformed, but the vast majority of them are oblivious to the resale market."_

Thanks for the compliment.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

OK, fixed.

But, yeah, I still think you're trying to change the argument completely. Everyone here at Tug knows the breakdown of developer v. resales. All that means is there are a lot of people who don't know about resales, and it wasn't the situation I was commenting on, which I know you're smart enough to realize.

TUG is where the greatest expertise about timeshares exists. And within that community, yes, the "Church of Marriott Points" has always been a minority, and one that is becoming smaller and smaller every day that resale prices drop. Pointing out that reality isn't ignoring the statistic you're quoting, it's pointing out that within the most expert group of users, your position is roundly rejected.


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## m61376 (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> I really try to avoid assuming people are stupid and/or uninformed.  Everyone has access to a computer and can get information, just like you did.  What you know is not top secret as it's readily available information.  Maybe others just don't agree with your point of view?


I don't contend that most people are stupid, but I have several very smart, well educated friends who are uninformed as to the resale market. I would venture to guess that there are many, many smart people who are unaware that a resale market even exists, so never bothered to look it up on the computer and remain uninformed and vulnerable to timeshare salesmanship. 

How many people have you met on vacation who may be multiple week owners, trading happily and enjoying their week(s) who stare at you incredulously when you mention that you bought resale? 

So, I don't think I am being condescending when assuming that many developer purchases are made because many buyers don't even realize another option exists.


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## lark (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't know if anyone genuinely trying to learn between resale and developer is still reading this thread, but if they are, I think there is one important issue that has not yet really been discussed here.  The discussion so far seems to be assuming a purchase with cash.

The calculus skews even further to the resale side of the ledger if you're financing any part of the purchase.  

As for me, put me down in the camp that thinks the most "flexible" of all options is to bank the extra cash (literally or figuratively in the form of future opportunities) as you see fit -- both the cash equal to the spread between developer prices and resale prices and the cash you can get for renting any week you don't use.  I think some people are perpetual travel planners and derive a great deal of psychic satisfaction from managing, shopping, and spending points.  I guess there's some value in such psychic satisfaction, but it's not for me.

Finally, even the two vocal advocates for developer purchases on this thread seem to acknowledge that with ROFR suspended and given the current massive spread between resale and developer prices, there is no justification whatsoever at the present time for a developer purchase.  So isn't this whole discussion a bit abstract for anyone coming to tug right now and looking for advice.  I mean, when you're talking about 20, 30 or even 40k to spend in the future on whatever you choose, it's a silly debate.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 18, 2009)

m61376 said:


> How many people have you met on vacation who may be multiple week owners, trading happily and enjoying their week(s) who stare at you incredulously when you mention that you bought resale?



Oh, man, could I tell you stories ... like the folks at both Mountainside and Maui last year who couldn't understand HOW I had traded into 2BR units - at the height of ski season and the summer - with my studio Streamside Birch unit purchased for a few hundred bucks on eBAy, because their salesman had told them it was IMPOSSIBLE to trade into those properties at those times, even with another Marriott.

But ... but ... but ... the salesman said you HAD to own there to get in at those times ...

At a certain point you feel guilty.


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## lark (Feb 18, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Oh, man, could I tell you stories ... like the folks at both Mountainside and Maui last year who couldn't understand HOW I had traded into 2BR units - at the height of ski season and the summer - with my studio Streamside Birch unit purchased for a few hundred bucks on eBAy, because their salesman had told them it was IMPOSSIBLE to trade into those properties at those times, even with another Marriott.
> 
> But ... but ... but ... the salesman said you HAD to own there to get in at those times ...
> 
> At a certain point you feel guilty.



I just keep my head down and shut up.

For several years, we rented the same place every summer from a multiple week owner who was happy to have someone responsible and reliable pay just a bit over MFs every year without any hassle.  In the proximity of people at the pool who have spent over $40k for their weeks for less desirable view units, it is best to be very quiet, lest all heck breaks loose.


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## Latravel (Feb 18, 2009)

_it's a silly debate._

I agree.  At this point, it's not about the subject anymore.  It's about people feeling good about their purchases - which is ok!  Time for dinner!


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## Beverley (Feb 18, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"because the people they're trying to sell to, in the vast majority of cases, know almost nothing about points or timesharing."_
> 
> I read somewhere the group that buys the most Marriott timeshares are current Marriott owners.  The average Marriott owner has purchased 4 weeks from Marriott.  One could say the most knowledgable group of Marriott timeshares are current owners.  How do these statistics fit in your theory?
> 
> How come, in the past, owners were coming for more Marriott timeshares?



I fit this profile owning 6 Marriott weeks all bought directly from Marriott.  One was even one of their resales  I do not feel like I was ripped off.  I rather like the convenience of purchasing direct ... considering the purchase is all about luxury and convenience anyway  

Beverley


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## Beverley (Feb 18, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> IMHO the near rabid  people are the ones that come on here and in no uncertain terms and usually in capital letters tell potential owners that they should never, never under any circumstances purchase direct from Marriott.  At least those of us who did buy direct will usually tell a potential purchaser that they need to decide if the ability to trade for points is important to them either now or in the future.  We suggest that they think years down the road and decide if they always, for the rest of their lives or at least for as long as they own their timeshare, are always going to want to go to a timeshare for vacation year after year.  If they decide that the point option is not important then they should buy direct but at least we do not scream at them and tell them they are idiots for not purchasing resale they way some of the posters on this board do.



I've seen this too.  Sometimes the louder voices make me wonder if I am truly in the minority or in the silent majority .... hmmm

Beverley


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## Beverley (Feb 18, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Kathy, do I understand correctly that you didn't use your timeshare for 7 straight years? If that's the case, it's a sign that there's a big gap between how you use your timeshare and how most on TUG do.
> 
> I mean, if someone came on TUG, and said, "I'm not going to use my timeshare for 7 straight years ..." almost everyone here would say, well, maybe you shouldn''t buy a timeshare. Actually, they'd say you definitely shouldn't buy one. And, if what you're saying is that you've got multiple timeshares, and you've found you can't use 7 weeks worth of them over a few years, I think most people would say you've got too many weeks (particularly given developer prices).
> 
> I find it a very personal example - and I'm glad your happy with your purchase - but it hardly seems like a good basis on which to be giving advice, or to justify someone else really look hard at points.



Flexibility is what I heard from Kathy's earlier posts where in she mentioned her family vacationing had changed as the kids got older.  I find now that the flexibility factor really is useful as my kids use our weeks and / or our points depending on location and the vacation theme.

Beverley


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## KathyPet (Feb 19, 2009)

I purchased my first Marriott (MMC) in 1994.  The second and third were purchased directly from Marriott in 2003.  Was I aware of TUG and the resale market?  Absolutely!   I still chose to buy direct because of the large # of incentive points and the ability to trade for points had proved its worth to me several times over.  Do I regret it?  Absolutely not!  As I tried to explain if I did not have the ability to trade for points I would have been "stuck" with at least 7 weeks of usage (actually 9 if you count the Alaska cruise we are taking this year that will take our two weeks of vacation time in 2009) that I would have had to find some alternative usage for.  There have been some recent posting here from people who are having trouble finding renters for their units.  It is interesting that we never hear from folks who could not rent their units out.  Do we really think that all those units up for rent on TUG and Red Week and EBAY find renters?  I seriously doubt it especially in this economy where people are cutting back on "nice to have" items like vacations especially in locations that require a flight.  If you can't use it or choose not to and you can't rent it then what good is it to you?  Yes you can bank it but then the following year you just have double the weeks to use but you don't have double the vacation time to use those banked weeks so the problem just continues to grow.  If you only own one week this is probably not a issue but if you own three weeks as we did it can be a real problem.  That is why we sold our Barony Beach week. However, I don't have the problem because I traded my excess, left over weeks for points that i can use anytime I want.  Problem solved!
As I said if all you want to do is use your home week or trade for a week at another location year after year and you never want to use your vacation time for any other type of travel then buy direct but if you dream of cruises or travel to European cities then you need to consider those dreams in your equation.
So, obviously most of you on this board think that I am a stupid, ignorant person because I knew about resale and still chose another route but I promise that next year when I am enjoying my hoped for trip to the Amalfi Coast with 3 days in Capri, 3 in Naples followed by a week in Paris with hotels and airfare courtesy of my Marriott rewards points I will try very hard not to appear too stupid and ignorant to the Italians and the French


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## NJMOM2 (Feb 19, 2009)

Buying direct vs. resale depends on what you are buying.  Our first direct purchase gave us enough insentive points with the deposit of the first year and one other year along with some extra airline miles we had for a family of four to fly and stay in Hawaii for two weeks using Marriott points.  The cost of the timeshare was probably what it would have cost us to pay for the trip to Hawaii.  Therefore I feel the points worked for us.  We bought a timeshare and trip to Hawaii.

Now with increases in maintenace fees it will cost me more to trade for points then buy them.  I was thinking of trading 2009 for points and getting a getaway for vacation in 2009.  When I did the math I decided to just use my week because I could buy the points to make up what I don't earn using my Marriott Visa card.

If you asked when I bought my first timeshare I would have told you to buy from Marriott and now I say it really depends on the number of points they allow you to trade for and the number of incentive points they give you.  Is it worth the money for the trips you can get with those initial points?  

My second timeshare was bought resale to increase my trading power since at this time my "trade for points' options of my first timeshare is useless for me the same as if I would have bought resale in the first place.


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## KathyPet (Feb 19, 2009)

NMOM2, I absolutely agree with you.  If someone was interested in buying only one week at this time I would probably advise them to buy resale.  Marriott is decreasing the # of incentive points they are giving and with the recent point devaluation the # of points you get every other year for trading your points will not get you much of anything if you want a really nice vacation.   You will have to trade your week for points for two years to get a decent package with airfare.  I am assuming approximately 100,000 points for trading your week in. So, if you have to trade in two weeks t0 get a nice package that means you have to go for a year without the use of your week since you traded it for points but don't have enough to get a nice package.  I would never do that.  Also, my issues with too many weeks and not enough time to use them are negated when you only own one week.  Even if you decide to take another kind of vacation like say a one week cruise and then another week to visit family you only have to bank one week for future use.  You can probably use that the following year.    The problems occur when you own multiple weeks like we did (three now down to two) and then decide to do other things besides go to a timeshare.  Then you end up with excess weeks and no way to use them.  However, a one week purchaser should probably buy resale at this time due to the great deals that are out there.


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## m61376 (Feb 19, 2009)

Kathy-
I think you are being overly sensitive. Even though many of us might not agree with your logic, I would surmise that most of us anyway don't think you are stupid and/or ignorant. However, don't be surprised if you get that attitude in Paris  ....

The bottom line is everyone should do what works best for them. I am glad it has worked so well for you. As for me, and maybe because I was ignorant of timesharing until recently (actually, I had a distorted view and never realized that there were resort-type units so I was never interested), and have bought at a different timing (not when there were great pre-construction buys and when Marriott was offering half a million points up-front and when prices, and thus price differentials, were overall much less), I have a different perspective. My solution for using our vacation time for other type of travel is simply not to buy more timeshares than we can use. I will still go on cruises and I will still go to Europe if I want to; maybe I will use the thousands of dollars I've saved by buying resale for some of those trips, which I can plan at my own convenience and not around point availability as a trade-off for coach seats versus business class.

It doesn't make you or me smarter- it means we both analyzed the circumstances and did what we thought was best for us. Perhaps today (in today's market- including resale costs, developer direct costs, developer incentives and devaluation of points) if you were in the market you would do differently. Perhaps a few years down the road if your daughter wants to buy a unit for herself you will change your mind- and maybe your advice will be exactly the same. If it works for you, that's great.

Funny- we posted at the same time- and your previous post was right in line with what I was saying....


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## NJMOM2 (Feb 19, 2009)

I only get 60,000 for a trade in.


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## taxiismygame (Feb 19, 2009)

*Oh my, I am sorry about all of this.*

I haven't been on for awhile and feel badly about causing all of this.  I am not sure what we are going to do.  I do know that we won't buy into the Orlando property at 31k.  We are looking into buying a week in Palm Desert or maybe Newport Beach.

This whole system seems a bit complex, and I am anything but ignorant or stupid.  There are just so many different options with points, trading, banking, etc.  Just when I think I have a handle on it, someone mentions something else to throw me for a loop.

What I am trying to decide is if maybe I should just keep renting, and be done with trying to figure this all out.  However, we are looking to go to Spain this summer and with airfare exceeding $1,200 per person, using points to buy airline tickets becomes very desireable.  Also, we are looking at Aruba if we don't go to Spain, and the Ocean Club is over $3,500 (if you can even find it to rent) for a week, so............................

Remember what they offered as an incentive to buy direct.............a week in a 2 bedroom in Maui (however, he skirted the issue of confirming the Marriott Maui Ocean Club, which is the only property we wanted) as well as 100,000 points.  He also told me I didn't know how to use the system when trying to book a property with points.  I totally understand the Marriott Rewards Program....what's not to understand?  We are trying to use our current points, and cannot find availability in ANY of the Marriott Vacation Club properties that we want.  So, I wonder......why should I have to be an owner in order to be able to book a vacation when I want to?  It appears that they truly don't care one bit about the non owners and whether or not we are able to use our hard earned points.


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## Latravel (Feb 19, 2009)

A 100,000 points is not enough to justify the purchase.  I wouldn't do it.  They need to give you more.


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## lark (Feb 19, 2009)

taxiismygame said:


> I haven't been on for awhile and feel badly about causing all of this.



Don't feel badly.  The thread went very quickly from giving you advice to people on each side justifying their own decisions.

With respect to your post, I don't think there's much dispute that (1) you weren't given the straight scoop and (2) at *this particular moment in time* with prices what they are and ROFR suspended, if you're looking to buy right now a developer purchase probably doesn't make much sense.


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## stmartinfan (Feb 19, 2009)

I know many timeshare users are successful at getting European trades, but there are fewer choices there and many are not in the major cities.  You may decide you want to own a timeshare that fills some of your vacation needs, but not all.

We own a timeshare in St. Maarten and love going to the island for spring break each year.  It's been a wonderful purchase for us, and despite buying from the resort, it was cheap enough that we've gotten good value from it over our 10 years of ownership.  We've gotten a couple of bonus weeks that we've traded through RCI but trading hasn't been the focus for our timeshare ownership.

However, we have also made several European trips with our kids during their summer vacations.  For those, we simply rented small apartments through online sources in the heart of major cities like Paris, London, Madrid and Barcelona.  That was cheaper for us than two hotel rooms, plus we could eat some meals in and have space to spread out.  Was it cheaper than trading a timeshare - probably not, but we could get exactly where we wanted to be on the exact dates we wanted.  And we had no maintanance fee obligations on years that we weren't taking a long summer vacation.

I know many posters here travel only with timeshares and are masters at swapping them, but I just wanted to add another viewpoint on how to think about what you want a timeshare purchase to accomplish for you.


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## m61376 (Feb 19, 2009)

taxiismygame said:


> I haven't been on for awhile and feel badly about causing all of this.  I am not sure what we are going to do.  I do know that we won't buy into the Orlando property at 31k.  We are looking into buying a week in Palm Desert or maybe Newport Beach.
> 
> This whole system seems a bit complex, and I am anything but ignorant or stupid.  There are just so many different options with points, trading, banking, etc.  Just when I think I have a handle on it, someone mentions something else to throw me for a loop.
> 
> ...


Don't feel badly. I think for many of us at least it was just a discussion of contrasting opinions, and I think provides useful insight to everyone.

Given the current economy, I would be surprised if you couldn't find a better rental that $3500 at either the OC or the SC in Aruba. Are they still going for that kind of money? If so, my guess is they will drop over the next few months.

Timeshare units are very rarely available for point stays. Generally only hotel rooms are available.

I don't understand how the salesperson offered you a free week in Maui but skirted the issue of confirming at the Maui Ocean Club, since that's their only property there. Unless it wasn't really a Maui week he was offering you but a bonus week somewhere through II, which might be Maui if you were lucky enough to get it...it is all in the wording .

The system really isn't that complex, but that's why you should take your time and read through lots of posts. I'd suggest reading back for the last several months. It will really enlighten you. But- keep in mind that these are only personal opinions and, well, being opinionated comes naturally  . It does give you the opportunity to hear a lot of different perspectives and allows you to take the bits and pieces that make sense to you and for your family.


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## taxiismygame (Feb 21, 2009)

When he pulled up Maui he QUICKLY said 'Oh, well there is all kinds of availablility, I can confirm you right now.' BUT it was in an Aston or one of their affiliates, and he just as quickly clicked out of it.  The MMOC never showed up....ever.  He was very offended when we questioned what he was doing.

I could just shoot myself now for even taking him up on the 'contingency.'  We paid $895 for 5 nights (who knows where and in what type of unit) so that we wouldn't lose the 'offer' that day.  If we opted to buy, thenthe $895 would go towards the purchase.  If we opted not to, they we would hav 5 nights in a Marriott property.  After researching I have been able to clearly see that it was an over zealous agent filling us with all kinds of untruths.  I thought we were smarter than that, I guess not.

We went out to dinner with friends tonight and talked in depth about all of this.  They asked......................'How do you know if your time share agent is lieing?  (Answer) Their lips are moving."   Now, I don't want to offend anyone, and I am sure there are many agents out there that do represent their companies honestly and not by misleading, but I didn't happen to get one of those.  Too bad for me.


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## m61376 (Feb 22, 2009)

You should carefully read the fine print and see if the offer can be canceled.  Even if there isn't a cancellation clause, I would call them and try to cancel anyway if you don't want the package. If you squawk loud enough you may luck out.

Usually when they make these offers accommodations are in a Marriott property, either a hotel or the timeshare guest room, so you may want to clarify first what they'd be giving you before getting all upset. Although $895 is higher than most of their promotional offers anyway.

At the very worst, $895 for 5 nights is a lot better than having overpaid for a unit that was probably not the best purchase location for you anyway.


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## toddc2 (Feb 22, 2009)

Find out where they are putting you before you decide to cancel. Don't be surprised is it's not the MOC. I think my 5 day package was $800 if I listened to the pitch. They put us up in the Ritz in Kapalua, definately the best deal going for such a nice room at that time. I filled in the stay with another 5 nights at the Grand Wailea and dropped almost that much PER NIGHT for a room that wasn't as nice.


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## taxiismygame (Feb 22, 2009)

toddc2 said:


> Find out where they are putting you before you decide to cancel. Don't be surprised is it's not the MOC. I think my 5 day package was $800 if I listened to the pitch. They put us up in the Ritz in Kapalua, definately the best deal going for such a nice room at that time. I filled in the stay with another 5 nights at the Grand Wailea and dropped almost that much PER NIGHT for a room that wasn't as nice.



This was only offered to us AFTER the presentation to 'buy us some more time' to decide if we wanted to buy.  They said that locked in our pricing until the following week when the rates were going up again.  I can't imagine why on earth they would give us 5 nights at the MMOC or anything even close, when the only reason we are getting that is because we decided NOT to buy from them, but essentially ended up only buying a  5 night package for $895.  I feel like an idiot, buying into all of it.


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## clymberz (Feb 25, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Oh, man, could I tell you stories ... like the folks at both Mountainside and Maui last year who couldn't understand HOW I had traded into 2BR units - at the height of ski season and the summer - with my studio Streamside Birch unit purchased for a few hundred bucks on eBAy, because their salesman had told them it was IMPOSSIBLE to trade into those properties at those times, even with another Marriott.
> 
> But ... but ... but ... the salesman said you HAD to own there to get in at those times ...
> 
> At a certain point you feel guilty.



Can you kindly share how you did this?  My In-Laws bought into the WKORV and we're headed to Harborside in April with them.  I'm wondering if we can apply your strategy and be able to request similar dates/times as they and vacation together cheaply without having to share the pullout couch.  

Thank you!


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## m61376 (Feb 25, 2009)

clymberz said:


> Can you kindly share how you did this?  My In-Laws bought into the WKORV and we're headed to Harborside in April with them.  I'm wondering if we can apply your strategy and be able to request similar dates/times as they and vacation together cheaply without having to share the pullout couch.
> 
> Thank you!



Those types of exchanges are mostly made during Flexchange, when even an off-season week will see the same as a high demand week and studios trade equivalent to 2BR's. Great Marriotts esp. can be seen with other Marriotts because the Marriott preference persists, although it goes from 24 days to as few as 3 days during the latter part of Flexchange (closer to departure).

Depending upon when the reservations are for, Starwood deals are a little different, because Starwood chooses what weeks to deposit into II, so they don't generally deposit prime weeks so getting prime weeks is harder. Starwood also has an internal preference in II for 3 days.


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## ldanna (Feb 25, 2009)

m61376 said:


> Those types of exchanges are mostly made during Flexchange, when even an off-season week will see the same as a high demand week and studios trade equivalent to 2BR's. Great Marriotts esp. can be seen with other Marriotts because the Marriott preference persists, although it goes from 24 days to as few as 3 days during the latter part of Flexchange (closer to departure).
> .



Let me just ask a basic question here: if I go for an instant exchange on II, what I see will depend on my week: if I have a Platinum, I will see everything available at that particulary moment, and if I have a Bronze the list will be a lot shoter.

During the Flexchange (60 days to the week I will deposit) I will see everything, no matter what I have.

Is that correct?


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## m61376 (Feb 25, 2009)

ldanna said:


> Let me just ask a basic question here: if I go for an instant exchange on II, what I see will depend on my week: if I have a Platinum, I will see everything available at that particulary moment, and if I have a Bronze the list will be a lot shoter.
> 
> During the Flexchange (60 days to the week I will deposit) I will see everything, no matter what I have.
> 
> Is that correct?



Yes and no (how's that for an answer ). If you go for an instant exchange in II, you will see everything that your week can pull. Your Platinum week will "see" a much longer list, but what you see will be limited by it's strength; not all Platinum weeks are created equal. Size of unit will affect what you see as well. Even from the same resort one Platinum week might not have the same pull as another.

Also, II has quality filters such that your top resorts won't see the lesser quality ones.

As you said, the list seen with your Bronze week will likely be shorter, but again- unit size really matters and the week that is reserved.

During Flexchange (59 days and before) you will see almost everything; those II quality filters do remain, but the pull of your Plat.=Bronze and studio=1BR=2BR=3BR


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## Latravel (Feb 25, 2009)

As much as I hate to say it, the situation ondeadlin described could happen.  When I was at Maui Ocean Club last April, I was sitting at the pool next to a young couple that traded into the MOC with Worldmark points (?) they purchased for really cheap on Ebay.  Even the lady was surprised she got MOC.  This is one of the main reasons I decided not to buy when I went to the sales presentation. 

Despite this, we subsequently purchased another direct purchase, instead of resale, because we didn't want any current or future restrictions on our units.  If Marriott decides to make changes to the system, it probably won't affect our units.


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## m61376 (Feb 25, 2009)

Latravel said:


> As much as I hate to say it, the situation ondeadlin described could happen.  When I was at Maui Ocean Club last April, I was sitting at the pool next to a young couple that traded into the MOC with Worldmark points (?) they purchased for really cheap on Ebay.  Even the lady was surprised she got MOC.  This is one of the main reasons I decided not to buy when I went to the sales presentation.


Perry has had success doing that for years. Esp. with Hawaii travel way down now, those trades are probably even more prevalent, esp. during Flexchange, when the Marriott preference decreases.


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