# help need advice in purchasing first timeshare



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

Hello my husband and I would like to purchase our first time share and really have no clue where to start. I have been reading and learning about timeshares from some of these forums and would like some advice. First of all we live in southern california amd would like to purchase a time share that would allow us to travel to tropical places like Hawaii, Aruba, cancun etc. I know if we would like those kind of vacations it would be best to purchase one at those places to get equal trade value. So my question was can I go to lets say the Marriot hotel in my city and purchase a time share to Aruba or is it best to travel to Aruba? I also read in one of the forums here that southern california Disneyland area is a high demand area but what happens if i cant trade my week i live right by Disneyland i would hate to have to vacation in the same city i alr3ady live in.I will be traveling to Riviera Maya next march and was thinking of looking into timeshares there. Are those a good choice any recommendations on any good ones? What should I look for in a timeshare to get the best travel use out of it? I was thinking of purchasing from either wyndham, marriott or great destinations,  any feed back on any of those? Im pretty new at just starting my research on timeshares so I need all the advice I can get. I know timeshares have mixed reviews so its very difficult to understand and figure out if this is something that would fit my family of 6 or would just saving up for a vacation every year be a better choice. Thanks


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

*thinking of purchasing my first timeshare*

Hello, im interested in purchasing my first timeshare im pretty new and just learning about them. I would like one that allows us to travel to tropical beach resorts like hawaii, cancun, aruba etc but I dont know how to go about purchasing through marriott? Is this a good timeshare trade value to be able to acquire the vacations iwant. I understand that I would have to have an equally rated trade in value timeshare for these places. How would I go about purchasing lets say in Hawaii with out traveling there? Any advice on the marriott timeshares?


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

*first timeshare purchase*

Hello, I am looking into purchasing my first timeshare and worldmark by wyndham in anaheim, california was one I was looking into. I was wondering if that resort is comparable to hawaii, aruba, cancun resorts as those are the vacations I would like to take?. I believe I read somewhere that southern california was a red zone in trade in value was high demand I live near the resort and I would hate to get stuck with a resort that I would have to use and vacation in the same city I live in. Any advice on what kind to purchase to get the vacations I want out of it, is points system better than a fixed one? Thanks


----------



## puckmanfl (Jun 23, 2014)

good morning...

This could take awhile but a few simple thoughts...

#1  look at the system that has the places you want to go...

#2 if Marriott, purchase a resale week in a place that you want to go often and that has high trade value. The new DC points thing is just way to pricey to enter..

#3  tell us your budget

#4  purchasing Hawaii just to trade is very expensive as it has highest MF's in the system...

#5  are you restricted to school schedule..if so trading can get dicey as summer HHI Hawaii easter week presidents week in the places you mentioned can be difficult and you may be disappointed...

#6  If you cantravel to Hawaii in may or oct/noember..a good high powered trader such as 3 bedroom GV plat might fit the bill...  This will definitely get you shoulder Hawaii, HHI..If you trade the enite 3 bedroom you have a decent chance of getting platinum at HHI ski hawaii if you are flexible...

#7  where do you live...having a home base within staycation driving alsio can reduce costs....  

let the games begin, lots of advice coming your way !!!!


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2014)

Always purchase where you want to go - a place where you would be happy going year after year if you couldn't trade it. And always buy resale. Make sure you can afford the yearly maintenance fees and plan on increases. I personally think it is best to choose a place where you can drive to; otherwise you are subject to the airline industry and it's price increases. What if you suddenly couldn't afford airfare- something happens in your life and you can't travel long distances, etc. The other thing is to try renting timeshares (from other owners) in different places you are considering each year so you can experience what the resorts are like and give you a different perspective. If you don't find anything you like within driving distance, continue to rent. Maybe don't buy at all! Continue to just rent where you want to go. 

We own 2 weeks in a resort we can drive to and we use every year. We used to trade it, but now that we can take a few extra vacations each year, we use the one we own, and then we rent from other owners to other places we want to go for the other weeks. No hassles. No having to worry how we will get rid of more timeshares when the time comes.


----------



## simpsontruckdriver (Jun 23, 2014)

On the other hand, since Wyndham also owns part of the Dolphin resort in Anaheim, you can buy ANY Wyndham, and then get into that - or any other - resort. Buying Anaheim (resale of course) will give you 13 month priority, but if you buy at another resort, you can use your points to get into the resort at 10 months.

TS


----------



## Roger830 (Jun 23, 2014)

We own four weeks in Florida that we use in the winter. We bought them so that we are guaranteed those particular units every year.

For traveling to Hawaii, there are so many condo rentals that offer advantages over timeshares. At some timeshare resorts in Hawaii, the condos with the best views are privately owed and rented at very reasonable rates. The advantage is you know what unit you will have before arriving.  Timeshare salesman are experts at selling a dream, but when buying timeshare points, you don't know what you will be able to reserve in the future.


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2014)

I am also partial to "weeks" rather than "points" if you can get the weeks resale, because with points you still have to book like a year out for your own unit and you have to keep track of the whole system- I think it's a pain. With weeks you just pack and go. With weeks, you know what unit you will be getting. But, again, I really think the best thing to do in your case is to rent. believe me, you can rent anywhere. We rented one overseas. There is also the site- Home Away- if you want to just rent a house our cottage minus resort amenities, although I can tell you some homes have pools, kayaks for use, games rooms, some are on the beach, lakes, etc.


----------



## Rent_Share (Jun 23, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> I am also partial to "weeks" rather than "points" if you can get the weeks resale, because with points you still have to book like a year out for your own unit and you have to keep track of the whole system- I think it's a pain. With weeks you just pack and go. With weeks, you know what unit you will be getting. But, again, I really think the best thing to do in your case is to rent. believe me, you can rent anywhere. We rented one overseas. There is also the site- Home Away- if you want to just rent a house our cottage minus resort amenities, although I can tell you some homes have pools, kayaks for use, games rooms, some are on the beach, lakes, etc.



I think you left out a word when describing your preference to fixed weeks, IMHO points have an advantage over floating weeks, particularly when the weeks have seasonal periods.

 As to the OP rent and try different brands, if your in SOCAL Worldmark would be great for use and trade, but it might not be "plush" enough for many


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jun 23, 2014)

Also. look at Shell Vacation Club ... still currently trading II.

Mostly West Coast based, you can get a decent size points packages for $1 and free closing. Has Hawaii resort, SFX, San Digeo, Vegas, Napa Valley and some others. Others have told me, it trades well.

I have stayed at their PHX resort - was nice and had a good vibe.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 23, 2014)

Welcome to TUG. You've found the right place to get that information- except that nobody will just say, buy HERE and spend this much.  Or maybe they will. There will be MUCH more advice, and anecdotal, 'I bought ________, and it's wonderful!' We are a friendly bunch that way.

First. Buy RESALE!!! It just cannot be stressed enough that developers charge many times the actual value of a TS to cover sales commissions, etc. And there is no such thing as a 'new' timeshare. The products are identical.

Second, be sure you go to the Mexico forum and carefully read about rescinding any purchase made there. Their sales practices are awful, predatory, they will lie, and hold you hostage for hours at locations you can't get away from to make you sign. Better to sign, get away, then quickly cancel the next day. Better yet, just don't go to ANY SORT of Mexican timeshare presentation. They are cheap on the resale market, and you can rent/exchange to there easily and cheaply anyway.

For people like you who want primarily to exchange, and who live in the West, I would recommend a point based system. Some have a 'home' resort, some do not. All can exchange at higher price into the big exchanges like RCI, or II. I like Worldmark for you. Wyndham is more Eastern presence, Marriott is very nice, but expensive. Bluegreen is another good system.

Others will chime in with suggestions. Prepare to be at least 'whelmed' if not overly so.

Jim


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> This could take awhile but a few simple thoughts...
> 
> ...


Hello thanks for the replies to answer some of your questions.
I live in Anaheim california
I can pretty much travel whenever except for the months of november/december. I do have kids in school but that can be arranged.
Now how much I'm willing to spend I'm not sure if it is a reasonable price I've never been to a timeshare presntation but my husband and I agreed to no more than $25-30. I'm not sure if that price will even get us a nice timeshare like I said I'm just starting my research. 
There is a worldmark by my house that I was interested in looking into. I might just have to go set up an appointmemt learn about there program and then try and learn about purchasing resale on ebay or another site. I'm just afraid of getting stuck with something I won't be able to use as I've heard good and bad things about owning a time share. I look forward to reading more advice. I'm so happy I found this foeum! Thanks


----------



## momeason (Jun 23, 2014)

Do you mean $25-$30 or $25,000 dollars?

There is the upfront purchase price and then there are yearly maintenance fees. Since you live in the West, Worldmark may be a good option. Try the Worldmark Forum.
Most good timeshares will cost a more than $25 or $30 to buy in. 
I would be hesitant to go make an appointment at any Timeshare for a presentation until you are extremely well versed in the resale market and have a lot of TUG education.

We have a saying here on TUG. " If a timeshare salesman's lips are moving, he is lying" You need to know the truth and the facts before the "snow" job.

There are also 2 camps here on TUG. We have the traders and we have the buy where you will go camps. Each has merit. Some Tuggers are in both camps.
Some recommend renting for a while and then considering a purchase.

Timeshares are easy to purchase and hard to dispose of.
That being said, I love my timeshare and timesharing!


----------



## Ron98GT (Jun 23, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Hello thanks for the replies to answer some of your questions.
> I live in Anaheim california
> I can pretty much travel whenever except for the months of november/december. I do have kids in school but that can be arranged.
> Now how much I'm willing to spend I'm not sure if it is a reasonable price I've never been to a timeshare presntation but my husband and I agreed to no more than $25-30. I'm not sure if that price will even get us a nice timeshare like I said I'm just starting my research.
> There is a worldmark by my house that I was interested in looking into. I might just have to go set up an appointmemt learn about there program and then try and learn about purchasing resale on ebay or another site. I'm just afraid of getting stuck with something I won't be able to use as I've heard good and bad things about owning a time share. I look forward to reading more advice. I'm so happy I found this foeum! Thanks





mayrey33 said:


> Hello my husband and I would like to purchase our first time share and really have no clue where to start. I have been reading and learning about timeshares from some of these forums and would like some advice. First of all we live in southern california amd would like to purchase a time share that would allow us to travel to tropical places like Hawaii, Aruba, cancun etc. I know if we would like those kind of vacations it would be best to purchase one at those places to get equal trade value. So my question was can I go to lets say the Marriot hotel in my city and purchase a time share to Aruba or is it best to travel to Aruba? I also read in one of the forums here that southern california Disneyland area is a high demand area but what happens if i cant trade my week i live right by Disneyland i would hate to have to vacation in the same city i alr3ady live in.I will be traveling to Riviera Maya next march and was thinking of looking into timeshares there. Are those a good choice any recommendations on any good ones? What should I look for in a timeshare to get the best travel use out of it? I was thinking of purchasing from either wyndham, marriott or great destinations,  any feed back on any of those? Im pretty new at just starting my research on timeshares so I need all the advice I can get. I know timeshares have mixed reviews so its very difficult to understand and figure out if this is something that would fit my family of 6 or would just saving up for a vacation every year be a better choice. Thanks



1. When you stated $25-30, I assume you meant $25K - $30K.  No reason to spend any where near that amount. A couple of thousand for a good Marriott, 2-Bdrm, Platinum, Lock-Off (L/O), trader.

2.  A good Marriott Platinum trader will get you into Hawaii (Marriott's & Westin's, on Oahu, Maui, & Kauai), Aruba (Marriott), Cancun (Westin), St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands (Marriott), just to name a few.

3.  You don't buy a Marriott TS (points now. not weeks) at a Marriott hotel.  You would purchase a Marriott TS (points, yuck) from Marriott at one of there TS's at a presentation. But don't do that. Only buy a resale TS, which means your getting a deeded week from someone other than the developer (Marriott, HGVC, Westin, etc).  You can purchase that week from/thru a number of sources which includes the actual owner, eBay, a broker, here on Tug thru the Marketplace, etc.

4.  Marriott has a number of TS developments in the Palm Springs/Desert area, in California.  I would suggest looking at a Shadow Ridge, Development I, 2-Bdrm, L/O, Platinum week. Other good traders would include the Grand Chateau in Las Vegas, or the Grand Vista in Orlando.  The GV would/does have lower MF's, but IMO a Shadow Ridge I TS would be a slightly better trader, especially when you reserve your week during the spring golf Platinum season. 

5. Here is a link to the Marriott Vacation Club collection, so you can see where they have TS's:

http://www.marriottvacationclub.com/vacation-resorts/marriott-vacation-club-collection.shtml

6. As Puck stated, stick with Marriott weeks, not points.

7. What ever you do, don't buy a Mexico TS.

8. Although Wyndham has TS's in a lot of locations, some of us (Me) are very picky.  I prefer the quality and amenities available at Marriott, HGVC, & Westin TS's, which is why I've purchased and exclusively stay at those TS's and also at their hotels.  If you don't mind dropping from 4/5 Star Resorts (Marriott, Hilton, & Westin/Sheraton) to 3 Star (think Quality/Comfort Inn motels, which Wyndham also owns, along with sub 3-star Super 8, Ramada, & Travelodge motels), purchasing a Wyndham would save you some money.  The Wyndham's are OK for a cheap vacation, but the Marriott's and Westin's are nicer, they're larger resorts with more amenities, and you'll be next to the water with a beach, instead of near the water. Also, the rooms are quieter and the beds are usually more comfortable. 

9. Just one more note, Marriott & Westin trade in Interval International (II), where-as HGVC & Wyndham trader in RCI (which Wyndham owns).


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2014)

Rent_Share said:


> I think you left out a word when describing your preference to fixed weeks, IMHO points have an advantage over floating weeks, particularly when the weeks have seasonal periods.
> 
> As to the OP rent and try different brands, if your in SOCAL Worldmark would be great for use and trade, but it might not be "plush" enough for many



Yes, I meant fixed weeks. (We happen to have 1 week of each). I agree. Points does have an advantage over floating weeks. For us, we just use our floater, too as we enjoy all the seasons at the resort. But we used to exchange the floaters for some pretty nice places like Arizona, Hawaii, Virginia, Maine, New Hampshire, Florida.


----------



## lizap (Jun 23, 2014)

Since you have kids, it could be challenging getting into a Hawaii Marriott or Westin during peak times using II, especially if you want a 2 bedroom at one of the more popular resorts.  Given the amount you are willing to spend, I would take a close look at the Starwood and Hilton systems. Neither have resorts near you, but both are of excellent quality and have excellent internal trading systems.  I would take a look at their locations and if you are ok with that (*very important*), then you can go to each respective sub-forum to learn more.  Most people here recommend buying where you will want to vacation the most, but there are many of us here that use our units to exchange (either internally or via II) frequently.  If you decide to go the Starwood route, make sure you buy a 'Mandatory' resort as these can only use the internal system.  Another very viable option is to buy a Marriott (resale) where you want to vacation the most and you can use II to exchange it when you want to go somewhere else (although you will have priority in II over non-Marriott owners, as noted above, at times it still could be challenging if you're trying to get a popular resort at a peak time).



Ron98GT said:


> 1. When you stated $25-30, I assume you meant $25K - $30K.  No reason to spend any where near that amount. A couple of thousand for a good Marriott, 2-Bdrm, Platinum, Lock-Off (L/O), trader.
> 
> 2.  A good Marriott Platinum trader will get you into Hawaii (Marriott's & Westin's, on Oahu, Maui, & Kauai), Aruba (Marriott), Cancun (Westin), St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands (Marriott), just to name a few.
> 
> ...


----------



## pedro47 (Jun 23, 2014)

Don't do it. This is my opinion only.


----------



## VegasBella (Jun 23, 2014)

Ultimately, the most important question you need to determine the answer to is 
WHY DO YOU WANT TO OWN A TIMESHARE?

The answer to that question will help determine if buying is right for you. And then once you know that buying is the right choice, then and only then can you determine which is the right one to buy.

If you just want cheaper vacations then it probably makes more sense to rent.
If you want the status of ownership and you can afford it then go ahead and buy whatever will give you that.
If you want a consistent vacation (sounds like you don't) then buy a fixed week, fixed unit timeshare and determine which one makes sense based on your priorities, budget, etc.
If you want flexibility then why not rent? 

I could go on but you get the idea... you need to figure out why exactly you want to own a timeshare and then after that figure out what is the best route for getting you what you want.



Passepartout said:


> First. Buy RESALE!!! It just cannot be stressed enough that developers charge many times the actual value of a TS to cover sales commissions, etc. And there is no such thing as a 'new' timeshare. The products are identical.


Absolutely. 

You can find resale units/points available at eBay, Redweek, here in the TUG marketplace, county tax assessor auctions, independent resellers websites, etc.

Buying resale is basically the number one TUG rule and it's a good one. 
Another rule I have is that you should only buy timeshares you can afford to buy with cash - no financing a timeshare unless it's a choice due to exceptionally low interest rate. You should be able to afford it outright, IMO.



mpumilia said:


> I personally think it is best to choose a place where you can drive to; otherwise you are subject to the airline industry and it's price increases. What if you suddenly couldn't afford airfare- something happens in your life and you can't travel long distances, etc.


I agree with this advice as well. Although things change and you could move to Hawaii, it's probably more realistic to assume you're staying in the LA area for the next ten years right? You'll have more options and likely get more value out of your timeshare if you buy something closer to home. 

Of course, owning some place like Hawaii will definitely light the fire under your butt to make sure you get there every year (or every other year if that's the type of ownership you buy).

In addition to airline expenses you may also want to consider expenses like taxes, car rental fees, etc. that impact the total cost of your vacation.

Lastly, I highly recommend buying Prime season because it will be easier for you to use on your kid's school schedule and also because it will be much easier to sell later on if you have to.


----------



## PearlCity (Jun 23, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Hello thanks for the replies to answer some of your questions.
> I live in Anaheim california
> I can pretty much travel whenever except for the months of november/december. I do have kids in school but that can be arranged.
> Now how much I'm willing to spend I'm not sure if it is a reasonable price I've never been to a timeshare presntation but my husband and I agreed to no more than $25-30. I'm not sure if that price will even get us a nice timeshare like I said I'm just starting my research.
> There is a worldmark by my house that I was interested in looking into. I might just have to go set up an appointmemt learn about there program and then try and learn about purchasing resale on ebay or another site. I'm just afraid of getting stuck with something I won't be able to use as I've heard good and bad things about owning a time share. I look forward to reading more advice. I'm so happy I found this foeum! Thanks



I own Worldmark and Marriott, I like the Worldmark flexibility and I have gotten trades in Hilton Waikaloa Kingsland for spring break and Hilton Hawaii Village Lagoon Tower in July of next year in a 3 bedroom as well as Marriott Ko Olina (Labor day week off peak but still, it was for 4,000 points a little under 60 days out.-but I live on Oahu, so I have that flexibilty)  

I would recommend asking questions in the worldmark forum and on wmowners.com and reading the literature available out there on Worldmark vice relying on what the salesperson from Wyndham tells you. From what I hear, their presentations and information can be somewhat inaccurate (as can be true with many timeshare presentations). I bought Worldmark site unseen just so I can have larger accomodations with fully kitchens for my family and to trade into places like Hawaii to keep my costs down for vacations.

If you are looking to spend under $25-30k, Retail for Worldmark is running over $2 a point (I want to say over $2.50 a point but buying direct was never an option for me so I haven't kept track).  Resale runs $0.30-$.40 a point, so anything a sales person tells you about benefits of buying direct-- usually the math doesn't work.   Maintenance fees for a nice 10,000 point account would run you $685 a year. 

Shell Vacations also is supposed to be a good one, (but also recently acquired by Wyndham), maintenance fees are higher , but if your upfront costs to be under $30, then you might be able to get shell for that cost off of ebay or even in the bargain forums on tug. Good luck!


----------



## lizap (Jun 23, 2014)

Certainly,many of us use II to trade.  I have done so with our Hyatt unit, but from my experience, it is much easier (and there is more certainty) using an internal trading system, a la Starwood.  For example we have used our 2 BR WKV to get a 2 BR WKORV OF.  At eight months out, this was easy.  There is a reason you will pay more for a 2BR Plat Pus WKV unit.  I do not always want to wait to see if  I'm going to be able to get a resort (or a particular type of unit) using II..  For those, who have the time and flexibility to 'play the game', II works.  I have recently used it to get 3 exchanges, but not once was I able to get our desired resort and the type of unit we wanted (given the time we need to travel)..  But don't get me wrong,  II works well if you are flexible in regards to resorts, type of units, and dates (and don't mind waiting)..




PearlCity said:


> I own Worldmark and Marriott, I like the Worldmark flexibility and I have gotten trades in Hilton Waikaloa Kingsland for spring break and Hilton Hawaii Village Lagoon Tower in July of next year in a 3 bedroom as well as Marriott Ko Olina (Labor day week off peak but still, it was for 4,000 points a little under 60 days out.-but I live on Oahu, so I have that flexibilty)
> 
> I would recommend asking questions in the worldmark forum and on wmowners.com and reading the literature available out there on Worldmark vice relying on what the salesperson from Wyndham tells you. From what I hear, their presentations and information can be somewhat inaccurate (as can be true with many timeshare presentations). I bought Worldmark site unseen just so I can have larger accomodations with fully kitchens for my family and to trade into places like Hawaii to keep my costs down for vacations.
> 
> ...


----------



## PearlCity (Jun 23, 2014)

lizap said:


> Certainly,many of us use II to trade.  I have done so with our Hyatt unit, but from my experience, it is much easier (and there is more certainty) using an internal trading system, a la Starwood.  For example we have used our 2 BR WKV to get a 2 BR WKORV OF.  At eight months out, this was easy.  There is a reason you will pay more for a 2BR Plat Pus WKV unit.  I do not always want to wait to see if  I'm going to be able to get a resort (or a particular type of unit) using II..  For those, who have the time and flexibility to 'play the game', II works.  I have recently used it to get 3 exchanges, but not once was I able to get our desired resort and the type of unit we wanted (given the time we need to travel)..


yup, which is why I think a worldmark or shell system may work for the op. Marriott is nice but you have to rely a lot on trades. with worldmark cancellation policy, op can book her location, then still set up searches for trades if she wants something fancier. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> Always purchase where you want to go - a place where you would be happy going year after year if you couldn't trade it. And always buy resale. Make sure you can afford the yearly maintenance fees and plan on increases. I personally think it is best to choose a place where you can drive to; otherwise you are subject to the airline industry and it's price increases. What if you suddenly couldn't afford airfare- something happens in your life and you can't travel long distances, etc. The other thing is to try renting timeshares (from other owners) in different places you are considering each year so you can experience what the resorts are like and give you a different perspective. If you don't find anything you like within driving distance, continue to rent. Maybe don't buy at all! Continue to just rent where you want to go.
> 
> We own 2 weeks in a resort we can drive to and we use every year. We used to trade it, but now that we can take a few extra vacations each year, we use the one we own, and then we rent from other owners to other places we want to go for the other weeks. No hassles. No having to worry how we will get rid of more timeshares when the time comes.


Thank you great advice. Where exactly can anyone I rent from other owners? Is there a specific website you recommend?


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> Also. look at Shell Vacation Club ... still currently trading II.
> 
> Mostly West Coast based, you can get a decent size points packages for $1 and free closing. Has Hawaii resort, SFX, San Digeo, Vegas, Napa Valley and some others. Others have told me, it trades well.
> 
> I have stayed at their PHX resort - was nice and had a good vibe.


Thank you I have also read great things on the shell vacations!


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

momeason said:


> Do you mean $25-$30 or $25,000 dollars?
> 
> There is the upfront purchase price and then there are yearly maintenance fees. Since you live in the West, Worldmark may be a good option. Try the Worldmark Forum.
> Most good timeshares will cost a more than $25 or $30 to buy in.
> ...


Thank you, I did mean $25, 000-$30, 000. I will continue to read and learn more into timeshares.


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> 1. When you stated $25-30, I assume you meant $25K - $30K.  No reason to spend any where near that amount. A couple of thousand for a good Marriott, 2-Bdrm, Platinum, Lock-Off (L/O), trader.
> 
> 2.  A good Marriott Platinum trader will get you into Hawaii (Marriott's & Westin's, on Oahu, Maui, & Kauai), Aruba (Marriott), Cancun (Westin), St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands (Marriott), just to name a few.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, I am going to look into the website you provided. And yes I think I too like more of a 4 star resort compared to the other ones you mentioned. Thank you for the advice


----------



## Beefnot (Jun 23, 2014)

If you are freaked out and feel that you must heed the advice of the buy-where-you-want-to-go crowd, then consider one of the Palm Springs Marriott timeshares.  In my opinion, that's your best bet to get all of what you are hoping to achieve out of timesharing.


----------



## Ron98GT (Jun 23, 2014)

lizap said:


> Since you have kids, it could be challenging getting into a Hawaii Marriott or Westin during peak times using II, especially if you want a 2 bedroom at one of the more popular resorts.  Given the amount you are willing to spend, I would take a close look at the Starwood and Hilton systems. Neither have resorts near you, but both are of excellent quality and have excellent internal trading systems.  I would take a look at their locations and if you are ok with that (*very important*), then you can go to each respective sub-forum to learn more.  Most people here recommend buying where you will want to vacation the most, but there are many of us here that use our units to exchange (either internally or via II) frequently.  If you decide to go the Starwood route, make sure you buy a 'Mandatory' resort as these can only use the internal system.  Another very viable option is to buy a Marriott (resale) where you want to vacation the most and you can use II to exchange it when you want to go somewhere else (although you will have priority in II over non-Marriott owners, as noted above, at times it still could be challenging if you're trying to get a popular resort at a peak time).


That's true.  May and the Fall months, especially November are the lowest demand months in Hawaii.  If the OP wants to go to Hawaii the last 2 week of December, the first 3 or 4 months of the year, or the summer months when school is out, it could be very difficult, if not impossible, which is why people who go to Hawaii each year during high demand periods buy the week that they want.  The OP would need a very strong trader, would have to reserve a high demand week at their home resort, deposit that week into II, make their reservation 12 months out, pay for II Retrade, and hope for the best.

The Marriott on Maui (MOC) is very hard to trade into, even during low demand periods, but the Westin (WKORV & WKORVN) is easier.  The Marriott on Oahu (MKO & MK1) is easier to trade into than Maui.  That's a nice thing about the Marriott Waiohai on Kauai, all the units are 2-Bdrm.

Although I don't like the new Marriott point system, one nice thing is that you trade within Marriott, you don't go thru II.

Here is a link to Interval International (II).  You can take a look at TS's available.  As an example: If you select Hawaii, Kauai, and then one of the Marriott's, not only will you see information about that resort, but click on the Travel Demand Index (TDI), for demand periods in Hawaii.


HGVC (aka Hilton) has a really nice TS points system, but they are not in the Caribbean.  If your looking for Hawaii (Oahu & the Big Island), Mexico, Orlando, & Southern Florida (Miami, Captiva Island, & Marco Island), then check out HGVC.  A HGVC, 2-Bdrm, 7000 point TS, would set you back about $1/point, on the resale market with yearly MF's under $900/year, unless you get an affiliate, which would be cheaper.  Not bad staying in a 2-Bdrm HGVC TS with a full kitchen in Hawaii, for a week for $900 (plus the upfront costs = purchase price + closing costs).

http://www.hgvclubprogram.com/

http://www.2013clubprogram.com/content/2013-Club-Program_v31.pdf


I's nice to own both Marriott & HGVC, since you can go to the Hawaiian Islands (Oahu, Maui, Kauai, & Hawaii), the Caribbean (St Thomas, St Kitts, Aruba & Cancun), Mexico (HGVC), Asia (Bangkok & Phuket in Thailand), and Europe (Spain, Paris, Scotland, Portugal, and eventually Italy), staying at Marriott, Westin, and HGVC TS's.


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Thank you great advice. Where exactly can anyone I rent from other owners? Is there a specific website you recommend?



You can actually rent from owners right here on TUG (Marketplace)! I have done so several times- been to Scotland, New Hampshire, Yellowstone, lots of places. Also, I have rented through owners who list on Redweek.com. I just rented a cottage on a lake through HomeAway.com for $1200 for 8 days. I have always had very good luck with renting. There is lots of advice on TUG about that also.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 23, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Thank you so much, I am going to look into the website you provided. And yes I think I too like more of a 4 star resort compared to the other ones you mentioned. Thank you for the advice



I really DO think you'd benefit from renting a few times. I know that there are TUGgers with all the best intentions, who advocate owning no less accommodations than Marriott or Hilton. Yes, they are nice, and if you are used to having butlers, concierges, paying to park, and high priced amenities, with people who feel 'entitlement' laying a paperback or towel on a pool chair at 6:00 a.m. to 'claim it', you'll fit right in. But contrary to what has been posted, Wyndhams, Worldmarks, and a heckuva lot of second and third tier TSs are not equivalent to a Super 8, or Travelodge.

Our 2nd tier or even independent TSs, acquired for a buck or two on eBay, are better located, well staffed, beautifully landscaped and decorated and maintained, and a lot less nickeled & dimed than the 'big name brand' TSs.

I'd encourage you to rent a few, take some resort tours (just walk up to the desk and ask to see a unit- no need for a full presentation).

Better to spend a few hours than 10's of thou$and$.

Happy looking.

Jim


----------



## lizap (Jun 23, 2014)

Jim, I know you're not talking about me   I promise I'm a humble person.  When we travel, we just like staying at a resort/unit that is at least as nice as our home.  Would rather own fewer TSs, but nice ones.  We all are different/have different strategies, and that's ok..  It's important for OP to understand her preferences/desires, and also become knowledgable about each TS system.  Only then should she purchase.



Passepartout said:


> I really DO think you'd benefit from renting a few times. I know that there are TUGgers with all the best intentions, who advocate owning no less accommodations than Marriott or Hilton. Yes, they are nice, and if you are used to having butlers, concierges, paying to park, and high priced amenities, with people who feel 'entitlement' laying a paperback or towel on a pool chair at 6:00 a.m. to 'claim it', you'll fit right in. But contrary to what has been posted, Wyndhams, Worldmarks, and a heckuva lot of second and third tier TSs are not equivalent to a Super 8, or Travelodge.
> 
> Our 2nd tier or even independent TSs, acquired for a buck or two on eBay, are better located, well staffed, beautifully landscaped and decorated and maintained, and a lot less nickeled & dimed than the 'big name brand' TSs.
> 
> ...


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

mpumilia said:


> You can actually rent from owners right here on TUG (Marketplace)! I have done so several times- been to Scotland, New Hampshire, Yellowstone, lots of places. Also, I have rented through owners who list on Redweek.com. I just rented a cottage on a lake through HomeAway.com for $1200 for 8 days. I have always had very good luck with renting. There is lots of advice on TUG about that also.


Awesome will take a look and see maybe that's a better option for us for now till I learn some more!;-)


----------



## mayrey33 (Jun 23, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> I really DO think you'd benefit from renting a few times. I know that there are TUGgers with all the best intentions, who advocate owning no less accommodations than Marriott or Hilton. Yes, they are nice, and if you are used to having butlers, concierges, paying to park, and high priced amenities, with people who feel 'entitlement' laying a paperback or towel on a pool chair at 6:00 a.m. to 'claim it', you'll fit right in. But contrary to what has been posted, Wyndhams, Worldmarks, and a heckuva lot of second and third tier TSs are not equivalent to a Super 8, or Travelodge.
> 
> Our 2nd tier or even independent TSs, acquired for a buck or two on eBay, are better located, well staffed, beautifully landscaped and decorated and maintained, and a lot less nickeled & dimed than the 'big name brand' TSs.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jim I think I will rent a couple of times with worldmark owners and then with a marriott owner and then decide what I find fits our family better. Thanks to everyone for all the help and information.  I will continue my search and learn some more before purchasing and I will buy resale.


----------



## ace2000 (Jun 24, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> I really DO think you'd benefit from renting a few times. I know that there are TUGgers with all the best intentions, who advocate owning no less accommodations than Marriott or Hilton. Yes, they are nice, and if you are used to having butlers, concierges, paying to park, and high priced amenities, with people who feel 'entitlement' laying a paperback or towel on a pool chair at 6:00 a.m. to 'claim it', you'll fit right in.



:hysterical:

I'll go along with Jim.  Rent before you buy or just rent and never buy at all.


----------



## uscav8r (Jun 24, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> ...
> 8. Although Wyndham has TS's in a lot of locations, some of us (Me) are very picky.  I prefer the quality and amenities available at Marriott, HGVC, & Westin TS's, which is why I've purchased and exclusively stay at those TS's and also at their hotels.  If you don't mind dropping from 4/5 Star Resorts (Marriott, Hilton, & Westin/Sheraton) to 3 Star (think Quality/Comfort Inn motels, which Wyndham also owns, along with sub 3-star Super 8, Ramada, & Travelodge motels), purchasing a Wyndham would save you some money.  The Wyndham's are OK for a cheap vacation, but the Marriott's and Westin's are nicer, they're larger resorts with more amenities, and you'll be next to the water with a beach, instead of near the water. Also, the rooms are quieter and the beds are usually more comfortable.
> 
> 9. Just one more note, Marriott & Westin trade in Interval International (II), where-as HGVC & Wyndham trader in RCI (which Wyndham owns).





mayrey33 said:


> Thank you so much, I am going to look into the  website you provided. And yes I think I too like more of a 4 star resort  compared to the other ones you mentioned. Thank you for the  advice



Timeshare owners are nothing if not parochial! 

I would have to respectfully disagree with calling Wyndham a Super 8 and "sub-3 star quality" which is a gross misrepresentation. While Wyndham has a wider variance of quality levels in its resorts, the newer resorts are pretty darned nice, at least at the 4-star level, and you probably get 85-90% of a Marriott quality/amenities for 60% of the MF cost (and 10-20% of the resale purchase price).

And I'd love to hear a Marriott owner argue with the Worldmark owner who just exchanged (via II) into that sweet Marriott unit, and paid the equivalent of 15-30% of what the Marriott owner pays in MF. In fact, Worldmark is considered one of the most efficient traders in the TS world.

The whole weeks vs. points thing is very much a personal preference based upon one's own circumstances. Being in the military, I move often, and have a non-constant schedule. I like flexibility, so I choose points systems; fixed weeks are _never _a consideration for me. I am not able to put the time into working the exchange circuit, and if I did, I would put that effort into my Worldmark ownership vice Wyndham since I can choose II as my trading system. 

Besides the whole quality debate, which can be very subjective, you really need to look at where you'd like to go. The initial Hawaii/Caribbean intent only goes so far. If you really want to do the same thing, every year, for the next 10-30 years, that's cool, but after hitting up the same location 2 or 3 year in a row, what then? Will you feel the same way? I personally would get bored, so I want a system that allows me to roam (again without having to be subject to the whims of the exchange market). Good luck finding (m)any Marriotts/Westins/Hiltons in the Pacific Northwest. 

If I were to start over again (and Wyndham/Worldmark were not options), I'd look into HGVC (probably the most resale friendly of the majors) and then a Starwood/Westin mandatory resort. In fact, in my window-shopping of 5-star quality expectations (and prices), those were actually the two systems I have been considering as add-ons to my current "portfolio."

Systems I personally would not consider: Westgate (reported to be one of the worst with respect to resale ownership... run away as fast as you can), and DRI (nice resorts, but resale owners are restricted, and the MF are pretty high).


----------



## lizap (Jun 24, 2014)

Good post.  It boils down to understanding the different systems and knowing what you want (and are willing/able to pay for)..




uscav8r said:


> Timeshare owners are nothing if not parochial!
> 
> I would have to respectfully disagree with calling Wyndham a Super 8 and "sub-3 star quality" which is a gross misrepresentation. While Wyndham has a wider variance of quality levels in its resorts, the newer resorts are pretty darned nice, at least at the 4-star level, and you probably get 85-90% of a Marriott quality/amenities for 60% of the MF cost (and 10-20% of the resale purchase price).
> 
> ...


----------



## uscav8r (Jun 24, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Thank you Jim I think I will rent a couple of times with worldmark owners and then with a marriott owner and then decide what I find fits our family better. Thanks to everyone for all the help and information.  I will continue my search and learn some more before purchasing and I will buy resale.



Renting at Worldmark will introduce you to the basic system and properties, but will not introduce you to all aspects, such as exchanging. But this (and renting a Marriott) is a good plan nonetheless. I might also suggest a sample of the other majors (HGVC, Starwood, Wyndham). Get a feel for the luxury, buy for the low MF and still get the same luxury.

While you wait between stays, I encourage you to check out the Exchanges forum on www.WMOwners.com. There are many tips and tricks on how to get into the more luxurious systems. With Worldmark you can have both II and RCI (just pay for a membership in one or both), you can enjoy the best of many worlds (Disney is in RCI by the way). 

Part of the reason WM trades so well is because it has a huge presence where the others do not, especially the Oregon/Washington coastline and proximity to many western National Parks like Yellowstone. This makes it quite easy to exchange into the usual suspect locations (Hawaii, Las Vegas, Orlando, Myrtle Beach, etc.). Short term exchanges (<60 days for II, <45 days for RCI) can be had for about the MF equivalent of $240+exchange fee. Even Normal period 2 BR exchanges would be only about $600+exchange fee.

The resort gallery for Worldmark is open to non-owners and lists credits values for every resort (estimate $.06/credit in annual MF). Go to the website and if a pop-up appears, just select the option that you are an owner:

www.worldmarktheclub.com


----------



## Ron98GT (Jun 24, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> I really DO think you'd benefit from renting a few times. I know that there are TUGgers with all the best intentions, who advocate owning no less accommodations than Marriott or Hilton. Yes, they are nice, and if you are used to having butlers, concierges, paying to park, and high priced amenities, with people who feel 'entitlement' laying a paperback or towel on a pool chair at 6:00 a.m. to 'claim it', you'll fit right in. But contrary to what has been posted, Wyndhams, Worldmarks, and a heckuva lot of second and third tier TSs are not equivalent to a Super 8, or Travelodge.
> 
> Our 2nd tier or even independent TSs, acquired for a buck or two on eBay, are better located, well staffed, beautifully landscaped and decorated and maintained, and a lot less nickeled & dimed than the 'big name brand' TSs.
> 
> ...


That's pretty insulting.  When's the last time you stayed at a Marriott, Hilton, or Westin/Sheraton Hotel or TS. Oh yeah, your not entitled, so you haven't. 

BTW there are no Butlers.

If you read my post again, I compared Wyndham to Comfort/Quality Inn, which they do own and are 3 star hotel/motels. Just read the reviews on Tripadvisor and read their rankings for Wyndham TS's & hotel/motels along with Comfort & Quality Inns.  Check out some of the Travel Reservation Web sites like Priceline and see what the star ratings are and what the reviews are like. I only mentioned that Wyndham also owns Super 8, Travelodge, & other low end motels.  I apparently pushed your buttons, but I mentioned Wyndham to the OP as a way to save money, so you don't have to insult me or any other owner of a Marriott, HGVC, or Westin TS, or those of us that stay in their "entitled" hotels with butlers.


And for those pushing Worldmark.  The OP was specific in the requirements: Hawaii, Caribbean, & Mexico.  I don't think Worldmark fills those requirements or even comes close:

http://www.worldmarkbywyndham.com/resorts/index.html

I looked at the 4 TS's in Hawaii, the one in the Caribbean, and the none in Mexico: Yuck.  And I know, but you can trade thru RCI, yeah right: TPU's.  OP, stay away from RCI weekly TPU's, especially if your looking for Hawaii and the Caribbean: No Value = No Trade.


Now, I'm done with this thread, my Butler is calling


----------



## Beefnot (Jun 24, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> That's pretty insulting. When's the last time you stayed at a Marriott, Hilton, or Westin/Sheraton Hotel or TS. Oh yeah, your not entitled, so you haven't.
> 
> BTW there are no Butlers.
> 
> ...


 
I do get irked at Passepartout's tone sometimes, but I found is comment to be pretty humorous and somewhat tongue-in-cheek even if it was a bit defensive.  Definitely didn't get me riled up one bit.  That is particularly noteworthy, since I have become a timeshare snob myself and will settle for anything less than Marriott, Four Seasons, and Westin quality only if I must (like when we stayed at Lagonita Lodge in Big Bear).  

Now, I pay sub-motel prices for the weeks I own in Branson, and a bit more than that for the decent quality Shell points system.  But for our exchanges, my family wants needs granite and we want need luxurious resort amenities in order to properly enjoy ourselves.  And we do not have the means to hire our own private Benson, nor have we seen any such butlers on site, I pretty much ignore the water carriers for the sales department concierges, and we have no need for valet parking.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 24, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> I apparently pushed your buttons, but I mentioned Wyndham to the OP as a way to save money, so you don't have to insult me or any other owner of a Marriott, HGVC, or Westin TS, or those of us that stay in their "entitled" hotels with butlers.



I apparently pushed your buttons. Mine are fine, thanks. There is no need for any owners of any brand name TS to feel insulted. They're the ones, after all who bought into those plans. There is also no need for those owners to get all haughty-taughty about owners at another non-name TS next door sharing the same beach, the same view, the same sunsets, snorkel the same reefs, who park at their doors, don't wear plastic bracelets, and feel no need to tip the pool-boy to get a front row lounge. None of mine have butlers- or concierges or even valet parkers for that matter. They DO have granite counters and stainless appliances, but I can't say that adds a lot to my quality of life.

Feel free to be as exclusionary as you wish in your Marriott or HGVC forums, but this is the place for newbies who come to explore and ask questions. Far better that it happens here than in some retail salesroom.

All the best!

Jim


----------



## uscav8r (Jun 24, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> That's pretty insulting.
> 
> The "sub-3-star" misrepresentation of the Wyndham timeshare system was pretty close to an insult itself, though I didn't say so. Jim's butler comment was a bit off-color (I found it harmlessly amusing), but try not to take it (or yourself) too seriously... After all, those Marriott stays should be very relaxing!
> 
> ...


Ron, quit taking this thread too seriously. 

Don't fear what you don't know; we might all learn something from those pesky lower-end TS owners.


----------



## sue1947 (Jun 24, 2014)

Just an added note on Worldmark exchanging; no TPU's are involved.  Whether it's RCI Points or weeks, it's all a standard number of WM credits based on season and unit size.  

Sue


----------



## TUGBrian (Jun 26, 2014)

mayrey33 said:


> Thank you great advice. Where exactly can anyone I rent from other owners? Is there a specific website you recommend?



http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/find_timeshare_rentals.html

Welcome!


----------



## aubailey (Jun 26, 2014)

We bought a Marriott resale 10 years ago for $2500 in Hilton Head. We now live there so we have traded every year--Puerta Vallarta, Cancun, and Aruba for 5 years. No problem trading through Interval International. Marriott is trying to upgrade everyone to a points system but we have resisted since we have had no problem trading. If I were in the market I would go Marriott but I am not so sure that they will allow sales people to sell without the points situation and my opinion is the price is outlandish----$15K+. No more $2500 timeshares at least at Marriott. Good luck!


----------



## frank808 (Jun 27, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Renting at Worldmark will introduce you to the basic system and properties, but will not introduce you to all aspects, such as exchanging. But this (and renting a Marriott) is a good plan nonetheless. I might also suggest a sample of the other majors (HGVC, Starwood, Wyndham). Get a feel for the luxury, buy for the low MF and still get the same luxury.
> 
> While you wait between stays, I encourage you to check out the Exchanges forum on www.WMOwners.com.
> 
> ...



Not to nit pick but what about the housekeeping credit that you would also need to give up? Have to add in that $50 - $75 more per exchange after your complimentary 1 or 2 are gone.


----------



## uscav8r (Jun 27, 2014)

frank808 said:


> Not to nit pick but what about the housekeeping credit that you would also need to give up? Have to add in that $50 - $75 more per exchange after your complimentary 1 or 2 are gone.



Yes, you are correct in pointing out this oversight, but partially correct (actually incomplete) in the details. It's so tough to cover every nuance in a single post! 

Extra housekeeping tokens may be rented from WM and depend on size of unit. You can also rent HKT from other owners for about $65 (requires a transfer of 5k credits along with the HKT).
An account could have plenty more than 1 or 2 (you get one per 10k credits) and it is conceivable that an exchanger would not have to pay for extra HK even if he/she only had a 20k account. Use the 20k on a penthouse/Presidential 2 or 3BR for about 16k (and 1 HKT) and do a 4k exchange into a Marriott (potentially) and use the 2nd HKT.

One can also get a No Housekeeping (NHK) account (much more expensive on the resale market) and not worry about it at all. 

Exchanging takes some homework and management, but extra fees can often be avoided.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## frank808 (Jun 27, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I do get irked at Passepartout's tone sometimes, but I found is comment to be pretty humorous and somewhat tongue-in-cheek even if it was a bit defensive.  Definitely didn't get me riled up one bit.  That is particularly noteworthy, since I have become a timeshare snob myself and will settle for anything less than Marriott, Four Seasons, and Westin quality only if I must (like when we stayed at Lagonita Lodge in Big Bear).
> 
> Now, I pay sub-motel prices for the weeks I own in Branson, and a bit more than that for the decent quality Shell points system.  But for our exchanges, my family wants needs granite and we want need luxurious resort amenities in order to properly enjoy ourselves.  And we do not have the means to hire our own private Benson, nor have we seen any such butlers on site, I pretty much ignore the water carriers for the sales department concierges, and we have no need for valet parking.


We must be starting a trend.  I will only book the Hilton, Disney, Marriott and Westin timeshares when they are available without hesitation.  I will goto the independents and other properties that have a good TUG rating.  I think a lot of people know the big names in the 1st tier timeshares and they have pretty good standards for resort, rooms and service.  That is why there is so much competition to trade into those resorts.  
I have stayed in the hilton, marriotts, westins, disney and grand pacific resort timeshares almost exclusively.   The times I have stayed in wyndham national harbor and san francisco canterburry suites have been very enjoyable and no where close to motel 6 rooms. Although they do not have the upper scale furnishings and details that the 1st tiers have.  Although I have heard the presidential units in wyndham are equal.
To the op no matter what timeshares has been mentioned here you will surely get accomodations that are definitely superior to motel 6 rooms for less than or equal to the motel 6 prices.  TIMESHARING is all about getting more for your money!  No matter if you are using a system for stays or trades.  All this advice is where everyone is using the system to the best of their knowledge.  Here on tug we are all showing everyone how to use whatever system to the fullest.  We all exchange ideas and tips here to get the most value out of our purchase.  Hence the amount of opinions here.  
Just take it easy and take your time for at least 6 months.  No rush in buying. Try out the different timeshare systems out there for yourself.  You might not even enjoy hunting for exchanges. You might like renting timeshares instead.
I will tell you there are times when the thrill of hunt for an exchange is more exhilarating than the stay.  Sometimes I just want to book a nice getaway for as little fuss as possible.  
Hope everyones advice is helping you.


----------



## frank808 (Jun 27, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Yes, you are correct in pointing out this oversight, but partially correct (actually incomplete) in the details. It's so tough to cover every nuance in a single post!
> 
> I don't know why Tapatalk keeps truncating my post, as I thought I had mentioned housekeeping. An account could have plenty more than 1 or 2 (you get one per 10k credits) and it is conceivable that an exchanger would not have to pay for extra HK even if he/she only had a 20k account. One can also get a No Housekeeping account (much more expensive on the resale market) and not worry about it at all.
> 
> ...


Yes I do know about all this.  You were using an exchange for 4000 pts at less than 60 days as an example.  You only get one free hk per 10000 points on a nhk account.  Hence the mention of the housekeeping credit as you would need for another exchange or booking. 
From your post it sounded like you would get all exchanges at less than 60 days out in II for just the cost of $240 in points.


----------



## frank808 (Jun 27, 2014)

If I started over again, I would have worldmark in my timeshare portfolio.  Just doesn't fit into what I own already.  Worldmark is a great system.  Just wish I learned more about it earlier.


----------



## PearlCity (Jun 27, 2014)

I believe worldmark has four resorts in hawaii two resorts in mexico and one in the carribean.  So it checks all three of the ops boxes. They might all not be fancy, but they are supposed to be decent. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------

