# Airlines Having Trouble Enforcing Mask Wearing



## JanT (May 13, 2020)

This is where airlines are going to have the biggest difficulty in recovering.  People are not going to want to fly when there are still real concerns about their safety in terms of being infected.  If airlines can't or won't enforce mask-wearing it's going to be tough to get people on planes again.  Just my opinion, of course.  









						Southwest memo says it will not deny boarding if customers don't wear masks
					

A Southwest airlines memo says it will not deny boarding if customers don't wear masks. It's the latest guidance from a major US carrier about passenger mask requirements.




					www.cnn.com


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## Cornell (May 13, 2020)

I have a friend that flew out of ORD this morning.  He was messaging me all about the experience.  He said the terminal area was more crowded than he expected.  Many people not wearing masks in the terminal.  Sit down restaurants closed but the food court restaurants are open and as a result, the food court was packed b/c everyone has been funnelled into there.  Obviously people not wearing masks in food court while eating.  

Yet masks required on his flight.  

Lots of arbitrary stuff going on here.  And inconsistencies.  

No wonder why people are exhausted,. Just my opinion, of course!


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## Talent312 (May 14, 2020)

IMHO, anyone on a plane refusing to wear a mask should be flogged.
The airlines should issue whips to the flight attendants.
.


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## AJCts411 (May 14, 2020)

Since masks seem to be the must wear or else solution, and since masks are very difficult sometimes impossible to purchase in some areas, then why is there not a supply of masks available at the door entering the airport?   "put in on or leave".


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## jtp1947 (May 14, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> The airlines should issue whips to the flight attendants.



Kinky!


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

AJCts411 said:


> Since masks seem to be the must wear or else solution, and since masks are very difficult sometimes impossible to purchase in some areas, then why is there not a supply of masks available at the door entering the airport?   "put in on or leave".


Surely you can't mean a simple and common sense solution??? (sarcasm aside-this does sound like a very simple solution?? so what am I missing here??)


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## bnoble (May 14, 2020)

JanT said:


> If airlines can't or won't enforce mask-wearing it's going to be tough to get people on planes again.


I think that's right. And, given current sentiment, it seems like an easy call--the pax volume carriers can recover by enforcing it will more than make up for folks they lose because it feels like an over-reach.


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## emeryjre (May 14, 2020)

Flying from DFW to SAN on May 27th.  American Airlines 737.  Based on seats available to choose from when booking flight, My guess is that the plane will be at least 70% full, perhaps more.  I think more people are flying now (at least within the US).  The airlines are still nowhere near to making money.  The airlines need a return of business and international travel because of the higher fares in those categories.

I will be wearing the best filtering mask I can buy and will have plenty of hand sanitizer in a 3.5 oz bottle to try and contend with the people who believe it is there god given right to ignore safety protocols and channel their favorite "freedom" guru.  I am hoping it will only be a few people that behave this way since they will already know, like I do, that the airlines will not be able to enforce the face mask requirement once the plane door has closed.

I will not be eating at the airport under any circumstances (short of a 24 hour weather delay). 

I need and want to fly that day.  I know the airlines are making attempts to make people feel safe while flying.  If stories start appearing frequently that flying is not safe because of uncooperative passengers refusing to abide by airline requirements, of wearing face masks, than perhaps the airlines will become more aggressive in the enforcement of the rule.

Until then, I do not believe people will fly for pleasure or vacations.   Will let you know how it goes.

John


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## bbodb1 (May 14, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> The airlines should issue whips to the flight attendants.
> .


I want to fly *that* airline!


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

I wonder what would happen if someone ended up on a crowded plane next to someone who is not wearing a mask and s/he asks the Flight attendant to move to a new seat? I can envision the viral YouTube video now...


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## pedro47 (May 14, 2020)

AJCts411 said:


> Since masks seem to be the must wear or else solution, and since masks are very difficult sometimes impossible to purchase in some areas, then why is there not a supply of masks available at the door entering the airport?   "put in on or leave".


I liked your suggestion. Masks should be supplied by the airlines. Right now it is very hard to find masks in our area. We ordered masks thru Amazon over a month ago and we are still waiting on our order.


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## pedro47 (May 14, 2020)

Maybe the airlines will have a section on the plane for passengers not wearing masks dived by plexiglass; located in the rear of the plane near the lavatories.


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## emeryjre (May 14, 2020)

I believe masks are provided by the airlines.  They are not provided upon entrance to the terminal as far as I know.


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## Steve Fatula (May 14, 2020)

There are some valid reasons where at least some removal is necessary. Thinking LAX to Sydney for example, where dehydration can easily happen and you really do need to drink water, and while you won't die, eat. Certainly for a diabetic, pills, etc?


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> There are some valid reasons where at least some removal is necessary. Thinking LAX to Sydney for example, where dehydration can easily happen and you really do need to drink water, and while you won't die, eat. Certainly for a diabetic, pills, etc?



IMO. This is fine for eating and drinking as long at it is promptly replaced when finished. It's prolonged exposure to the virus particles that seems to be the problem.


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## clifffaith (May 14, 2020)

Anyone see the interview with Dr. Fair on NBC Nightly News or the Today show? Interview was given while he is still in a hospital bed. He is one of their go to guys on medical things. He is a 42 year old virologist in excellent health. Wore a mask on a flight, but thinks the virus entered through his eyes. Started feeling flu-ish 3 days after his flight, and by the end of a week his lung capacity was diminished by 75%. That made him call an ambulance. He declined to be intubated if they could avoid it, but got massive amounts of oxygen and was finally downgraded from critical to serious. He's had 4 covid tests in the hospital -- several manufacturers, all tests come back negative. He attributed that to spending the first week treating himself so possibly virus can no longer be detected and/or difficulties with accurate tests. If this guy who worked with ebola patients in Africa and obviously knows what to do to protect himself, can catch covid-19 on a plane, anyone can. I don't see us going further than we can drive for a minimum of 18 months.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 14, 2020)

As has been oft-stated pre-COVID-19, the Captain of the airplane is responsible for the safety of the passengers, and violating an order issued by the Captain is a federal offense.  

So it strikes me that if airlines want to be serious about enforcement they have the Captain make a pronouncement that masks are required and must be worn except when cabin crew makes one of the recognized exception (children, people with a medical condition that prohibits wearing) or allows a mask to be moved for eating or drinking.  The staff are very clear that failure to do so will result in the arrest of the passenger.  

Then when the plane lands have the police ready to arrest the individual - not for failing to wear a mask, but for failing to follow crew member instructions.


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## Theiggy (May 14, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> Anyone see the interview with Dr. Fair on NBC Nightly News or the Today show? Interview was given while he is still in a hospital bed. He is one of their go to guys on medical things. He is a 42 year old virologist in excellent health. Wore a mask on a flight, but thinks the virus entered through his eyes. Started feeling flu-ish 3 days after his flight, and by the end of a week his lung capacity was diminished by 75%. That made him call an ambulance. He declined to be intubated if they could avoid it, but got massive amounts of oxygen and was finally downgraded from critical to serious. He's had 4 covid tests in the hospital -- several manufacturers, all tests come back negative. He attributed that to spending the first week treating himself so possibly virus can no longer be detected and/or difficulties with accurate tests. If this guy who worked with ebola patients in Africa and obviously knows what to do to protect himself, can catch covid-19 on a plane, anyone can. I don't see us going further than we can drive for a minimum of 18 months.



I haven’t seen the interview but your comment struck me, the part about 4 negative tests. I spoke to a woman the other day who lost her mom from COVID here in NY. Her mom was in the hospital and had 2 negative tests. They knew she had COVID and wanted to give her experimental drugs but needed the positive COVID test for approval. Her third test was positive. Unfortunately she still passed away. These tests don’t seem to be very accurate. 


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## Monykalyn (May 14, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> He's had 4 covid tests in the hospital -- several manufacturers, all tests come back negative.


I read his interview. I'd wonder about if he actually did have it if 4 from different manufacturers came back negative-there are still really nasty other viruses that are mimicking Covid symptoms, including the supposedly "diagnostic' chest xray; but improve with antibiotics and negative tests. 
Unless it  the same person taking the swabs for Dr Fair and they never got enough sample on swab...And if he improved after treatment for a "lung infection" Pneumonia?...
From one article (not related)
"Another study from China looking at 76 hospitalised patients found that by 10 days after symptom onset, mild cases had cleared the virus. That is, no virus was detectable through testing.

However, severe cases have much higher viral loads and many continue to test positive beyond the 10 days after symptoms start."
I'd think a world class virologist would be certain he had it but still...if he was negative 4 times, and improved after "lung infection" treatment is it really CV19? Why would he want it to be. I'd be interested if he could get an antibody testing in a couple weeks. If that came with positive antibodies then testing is flawed, and who knows how many negatives were misdiagnosed?




T_R_Oglodyte said:


> but for failing to follow crew member instructions.


Interesting work around, especially if the airline will provide a mask if needed!


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## Cornell (May 14, 2020)

I flew AA today.  Flight pretty empty.  Everyone had a mask on.  Announcement was made about it.  Airline had them for passengers if needed.  No beverage service & an announcement was made about that.  They said "let us know if you need something". 

My friend is an  AA flight attendant -- she told me that  flight attendants are going to repeat the mask directive but they are not going to be put in the position of policing passengers
.

Airport had a weird vibe w/zero business travelers.

Masks within ORD terminal were a 50/50 split but the airport is so empty that it's not needed b/c you can social distance.


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## CO skier (May 14, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> I want to fly *that* airline!


What happens in First Class, stays in First Class.


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## Ken555 (May 14, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> IMHO, anyone on a plane refusing to wear a mask should be flogged.
> The airlines should issue whips to the flight attendants.
> .



I’ll pay more to fly that airline! 


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> IMHO, anyone on a plane refusing to wear a mask should be flogged.
> The airlines should issue whips to the flight attendants.
> .



Flog me! I refuse to fly as long as masks are required on flights. It’s dangerous to breathe in your own toxic air for a length of time. (My average flying time is 12-14 hours coming from the East Coast to Kaua’i.)
It’s fine if staff or the paranoid people want to wear them, but don’t force me a healthy person to be uncomfortable for that length of time. I will definitely not be flying if the requirement is mandatory on any airline.

Something I saw today that makes me wanna cry because I may never get back to Kaua’i if this becomes the norm, (I have enough issues with the 9/11 rules!):









						Future Air Travel: Four-Hour Process, Self Check-In, Disinfection, Immunity Passes
					

Once airports and borders open and people are able to flight again, how much are you ready to adjust to a very "new normal?"




					www.forbes.com
				




I will never fly again if this becomes mandatory! I’ll never be able to get back to my 3 weeks I own on Kaua’i (the only place we want to go), unless we can somehow manage to afford a private jet, which I don’t see happening! I’m crying!

I refuse to be a Sheeple to this fake lockdown...I know the truth and players behind this virus! I’m sorry people are getting sick & or dying, but we have had worse pandemics without a blink of an eye in the past 50+ years and we all managed to survive them, many we may not even realize was happening! (Anyone recall the Hong Kong Flu Pandemic that happened around the time of the original Woodstock & Winter after? I don’t remember hearing about it!)


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

AJCts411 said:


> Since masks seem to be the must wear or else solution, and since masks are very difficult sometimes impossible to purchase in some areas, then why is there not a supply of masks available at the door entering the airport? "put in on or leave".



Airlines are supposed to be supplying them.


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I wonder what would happen if someone ended up on a crowded plane next to someone who is not wearing a mask and s/he asks the Flight attendant to move to a new seat? I can envision the viral YouTube video now...



Airlines are limiting the seats available. No middle seats if available on a plane, reduced 1st class, spaced & staggered seating, most of the middle of the plane will be off limits, & boarding from the back forward.

They will be drastically raising the already high airfare in the near future! 

The government gave them a bailout and they are making money carrying cargo! The government needs to get that money back and let them fend for themselves! They already nickel & dime us on everything already and were making tons of money from charging us for bags or prime seats, with reduced services! 

I had an emergency flight at the end of September and had to fly alone. I have a Delta Sky Miles card, but I’m secondary to my hubby, so they ripped me off for the baggage fee and refused to backdown since he wasn’t flying! I even paid extra for priority boarding since I was in the back of the plane and wanted to make sure I got my carryon onboard. 

(We usually have priority boarding with the card and free bag, up to 8 in a group as long as my hubby is flying!)

We can even take advantage of military and veterans when they call for early boarding for them since hubby did 24 in the Army. Usually it’s active duty that gets called for that. I have no issues with them getting on early, I have issues with families w/small children that get early boarding. They should be last! (Some airlines do that.)


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO. This is fine for eating and drinking as long at it is promptly replaced when finished. It's prolonged exposure to the virus particles that seems to be the problem.



They are trying to reduce any food or beverage service on flights, even less than is already offered!

If they go with this method: https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...mmunity-passes/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

No carryon allowed, so you wouldn’t be able to bring anything on board!


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> Anyone see the interview with Dr. Fair on NBC Nightly News or the Today show? Interview was given while he is still in a hospital bed. He is one of their go to guys on medical things. He is a 42 year old virologist in excellent health. Wore a mask on a flight, but thinks the virus entered through his eyes. Started feeling flu-ish 3 days after his flight, and by the end of a week his lung capacity was diminished by 75%. That made him call an ambulance. He declined to be intubated if they could avoid it, but got massive amounts of oxygen and was finally downgraded from critical to serious. He's had 4 covid tests in the hospital -- several manufacturers, all tests come back negative. He attributed that to spending the first week treating himself so possibly virus can no longer be detected and/or difficulties with accurate tests. If this guy who worked with ebola patients in Africa and obviously knows what to do to protect himself, can catch covid-19 on a plane, anyone can. I don't see us going further than we can drive for a minimum of 18 months.



Didn’t see that, but yes you can absorb things through the eyes.

If you eat organic and take lots of supplements, plus don’t have any major underlying conditions, your chance of catching this is slim.

There have been studies (not official) that say people with certain blood types and genetic markers are less likely to catch it. They say most of those people are of European decent (not European)...my DNA is 99.9% Eastern European, considering getting the genetic marker test that gives all the snps on the genes and breaks it down to what you should/shouldn’t put in your body. (This company doesn’t sell your information and with subscription, will keep updating you on changes and are rolling out info on Covid & your genes.)

There are known to be up to 40 variations of this virus...good luck getting a vaccine that works, if it doesn’t make you sick or kill you first! I refuse to get the vaccine when if ever they come up with one that claims to work! It’s going to be made w/GMO ingredients and all the other nasty things they put in them. Also, RNA vaccines have been a giant failure in the past! (This vaccine will also change your DNA!)

By the way, people w/o symptoms that actually test positive for a Corona virus (which there are 100 varieties including the common cold, since the test doesn’t tell which exact version you have), can shed the virus up to 28 days. 

(Just like after you or a child gets a vaccine...the real cause of that measles outbreak at Disneyland a few years ago, most that caught it were vaccinated & shedding!)

Natural immunity & hygiene is best and is what stopped majority of diseases from many decades ago, not vaccines!

We just need herd immunity! The lockdown has been causing more cases than people that get out & about! (Take Sweden for example!)
Majority of people catching this have other conditions and eat junk that is full of un-nutritious GMO foods.


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## Ken555 (May 15, 2020)

Did someone change the channel when I wasn’t looking?


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## Xan (May 15, 2020)

Theiggy said:


> I haven’t seen the interview but your comment struck me, the part about 4 negative tests. I spoke to a woman the other day who lost her mom from COVID here in NY. Her mom was in the hospital and had 2 negative tests. They knew she had COVID and wanted to give her experimental drugs but needed the positive COVID test for approval. Her third test was positive. Unfortunately she still passed away. These tests don’t seem to be very accurate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have a friend that runs a construction contracting crew at a couple of military bases in NC and he and his housemate/coworker think they had it back in December. They went straight to the doctor, no hospital or ER. Doc said pneumonia not knowing about the virus and gave them 10 days of steroids.

(Also know of people that may have had it in early 2019. All the symptoms fit!)

The friends eat 100% organic, drink distilled or spring water, but they are heavy smokers and drink 150% proof fresh distilled vodka, (also the crew’s hand sanitizer). Never had a flu shot in his 64 years.

He said it was the worst he’s ever been, but the steroids cleared it up and any arthritis issues. They were still weak for a couple of months. Cough finally gone.

They are trying to get tested to see if they had it, but there’s usually 80 cars in front of them and active duty get tested first. (They work with a lot of transient workers on the crew.)


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## JanT (May 15, 2020)

That was an interesting article.  I can honestly see people just opting out of flying anywhere unless they have to - simply because it is going to be so foreign to what we have all been used to.  We live in the age of "ease and instant gratification" and if airline travel becomes too complex with the kind of things mentioned in the article I can see many people saying, "Yeah, I don't think so.  I don't need to go to "such and such" that bad."  Eventually, society would become accustomed to it but at first?  I can envision a lot of people shunning airline travel.



Xan said:


> They are trying to reduce any food or beverage service on flights, even less than is already offered!
> 
> If they go with this method: https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...mmunity-passes/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> ...


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 15, 2020)

Xan said:


> I have a friend that runs a construction contracting crew at a couple of military bases in NC and he and his housemate/coworker think they had it back in December. They went straight to the doctor, no hospital or ER. Doc said pneumonia not knowing about the virus and gave them 10 days of steroids.
> 
> (Also know of people that may have had it in early 2019. All the symptoms fit!)
> 
> ...


You’ll Probably Never Know If You Had the Coronavirus in January

So far, all available evidence suggests that few Americans were infected in the first weeks of the year. It would be next to impossible to find out who they were.









						You’ll Probably Never Know If You Had the Coronavirus in January
					

So far, all available evidence suggests that few Americans were infected in the first weeks of the year. It would be next to impossible to find out who they were.




					www.theatlantic.com


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## bnoble (May 15, 2020)

JanT said:


> I can honestly see people just opting out of flying anywhere unless they have to


My partner and I are working through our own reactions about this. Right now, we are really not excited about flying--not because it will be different, but because there are still so many things we don't know. We've cancelled any personal travel that would involve a flight between now and the end of the year, and thankfully neither of us will have to fly for work anytime soon. But, we do have a couple of weeks on Kauai in late December that we are simultaneously hoping for and dreading. The good news is that we don't have to decide any of that right now.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 15, 2020)

Flying has become increasingly uncomfortable from TSA to the recently introduced narrower seating. This is just the latest.

I wouldn't mind wearing a face mask on a 5 hour flight. However wearing on a long International flight would be challenging (I would still do it).

How do they handle this in Asia?


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## rapmarks (May 15, 2020)

I am scheduled to fly May 23 and we have to change planes in Chicago.  If we stay in Florida, my husband will be totally cooped up. We have one acre planted with wildflowers up north and my husband loves our woods.   I can also take him on our own cart to play a few holes of golf.  And he can only play a few now.  But I won’t stay there for the winter so that means another trip back.  I am pretty nervous about the trip, but it’s go or stay through hurricane season.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 15, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Flying has become increasingly uncomfortable from TSA to the recently introduced narrower seating. This is just the latest.
> 
> I wouldn't mind wearing a face mask on a 5 hour flight. However wearing on a long International flight would be challenging (I would still do it).
> 
> How do they handle this in Asia?


Actually, one possible outcome from this is less crowding in airplanes.  There are a number of airlines that already have blocked of the middle seats in 3-seat alignments to provide greater distancing. 

Of course, directly related to this is that if passenger load on planes is reduced, fares will go up.  On one long-distance route I track on Alaska Air, for early next years, it appears they have sold two seats, total, in the plane (both FC).  FC fares haven't changed a bit.  And coach fare is about 70% of FC.  

More typically, the flight should be about one-third full right now, and coach should be about 30% of FC.


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## MrockStar (May 15, 2020)

Xan said:


> They are trying to reduce any food or beverage service on flights, even less than is already offered!
> 
> If they go with this method: https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...mmunity-passes/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> ...


No snacks, water?


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## MrockStar (May 15, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> I am scheduled to fly May 23 and we have to change planes in Chicago.  If we stay in Florida, my husband will be totally cooped up. We have one acre planted with wildflowers up north and my husband loves our woods.   I can also take him on our own cart to play a few holes of golf.  And he can only play a few now.  But I won’t stay there for the winter so that means another trip back.  I am pretty nervous about the trip, but it’s go or stay through hurricane season.


Best wishes on tour trip.


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## Cornell (May 15, 2020)

MrockStar said:


> No snacks, water?


I flew yesterday.  They announced no services on the flight.  No beverage cart.  Zilch.


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## MrockStar (May 15, 2020)

How long was you flight? I fly Spirit a lot and can deal with no beverage cart because I bring my own snacks/water.


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## Cornell (May 15, 2020)

2.5 hours. It was the weirdest flight I've ever been on.


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## bbodb1 (May 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Did someone change the channel when I wasn’t looking?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


_...heh....heh...heh...._


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## Ken555 (May 15, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Actually, one possible outcome from this is less crowding in airplanes. There are a number of airlines that already have blocked of the middle seats in 3-seat alignments to provide greater distancing.











						So Much For United Airlines’ Pledge To Block The Middle Seat
					

PSA: Social distancing is not possible on a full flight.




					www.forbes.com
				





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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 15, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> So Much For United Airlines’ Pledge To Block The Middle Seat
> 
> 
> PSA: Social distancing is not possible on a full flight.
> ...


Unless the government interferes, I expect that fare options will develop that will provide greater distancing for more money.  

If the short-lived Frontier fare option isn't viable, I expect there to be options created where the entire aircraft is has altered seating.  Could be an entire airline, or certain classes of aircraft.  Or if flying multiple flights between cities, one of the flights could have all middle seats blocked off.  Of course, the fares would be higher for those flights, but it would avoid the explicit pricing option that killed Frontier. 

Another option is to expand first class seating area - I expect there is going to be more demand for first class as travel resumes.  Or create/expand premium seating sections, between first class and coach.  Imagine the first eight rows of coach having 2x2 seating.  Not as luxurious as first class.  

We could also seats blocked from reclining, with plexiglass panels separating each row of seats.  And there could be a ticketing option that is to buy an entire row of seats.  You can sit by yourself, or with one or two other people of your choice. 

As long as the government doesn't meddle, I bet we'll see lots of options tried out in the marketplace, and the best ones (as determined by price and customer demand) will survive.


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## SPG900NY (Jun 1, 2020)

Xan said:


> I refuse to be a Sheeple to this fake lockdown...I know the truth and players behind this virus! I’m sorry people are getting sick & or dying, but we have had worse pandemics without a blink of an eye in the past 50+ years and we all managed to survive them, many we may not even realize was happening! (Anyone recall the Hong Kong Flu Pandemic that happened around the time of the original Woodstock & Winter after? I don’t remember hearing about it!)



Yes, my uncle had it. He said he almost died and wouldn't wish it on anyone, much the same I've heard personally about COVID from a co-worker whose sister had it. As for the masks, I don't think the airlines are mandating N95's or KN95's. Current mask guidance is mostly to stop the spread of droplets, so you can wear a cotton mask that breathes easier if you want. Reuters (the most unbiased news source out there, along with the AP) says you're not likely to suffer any ill effects even from the N95's. As for "we all managed to survive," well, I guess those of us reading and writing here did. We lost 100K here in the States during the Hong Kong Flu Epidemic. This time we've lost more than that, even WITH the most dramatic, extended shutdown the country has ever seen.



Monykalyn said:


> I read his interview. I'd wonder about if he actually did have it if 4 from different manufacturers came back negative-there are still really nasty other viruses that are mimicking Covid symptoms, including the supposedly "diagnostic' chest xray; but improve with antibiotics and negative tests.



He did, eventually, test positive.


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## Monykalyn (Jun 2, 2020)

SPG900NY said:


> He did, eventually, test positive.


Fair has tested negative for COVID-19 four times, but he said that's not surprising, because he waited a while to go to the hospital — so the virus may not be detectable — and the "tests are far and away not 100 percent accurate." 








						Virologist hospitalized with coronavirus believes he got it through his eyes
					

"We tend to pay attention to the nose and mouth," Dr. Joseph Fair said. "But you know, droplets landing on your eyes are just as infectious."




					www.nbcnews.com
				





See that is what is confusing-you google that and the ONLY concrete thing I can find is Fair himself saying he tested "negative". the news outlets _on the same day_ report conflicting stories! And I highly doubt a fifth test was +
He did say he "the doctors are positive I have it" and I will bet the interviewer only heard "positive" without the surrounding context! Accuracy doesn't matter at all anymore. Literally watched a local news station from a town an hour away bubble-talking head couldn't even get the name of the salon correct of the stylist who caused all the outrage.


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## csodjd (Jun 2, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Maybe the airlines will have a section on the plane for passengers not wearing masks dived by plexiglass; located in the rear of the plane near the lavatories.


Like the old days with a smoking section.


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## csodjd (Jun 2, 2020)

Xan said:


> There are known to be up to 40 variations of this virus...good luck getting a vaccine that works


If all 40 have common aspects, such as a common protein synthesis pathway for its "spikes," or its tools of replication, that's all you need -- an antibody response that attacks that common spot. Boom, all 40 variations (if there are 40 variations) are neutralized. 

You said, "We just need herd immunity!" That would never happen unless almost everyone was infected with all 40 variations under your theory.


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## x3 skier (Jun 2, 2020)

Flew 4 flights on Southwest last weekend.  Every passenger was wearing a mask except when they passed out snacks on two of the flights. Masks back on after snack time. I would guess the load factors were around 50%.

Cheers


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## dougp26364 (Jun 4, 2020)

So here’s an issue with enforcing masks, not everyone can wear one. Claustrophobia is a very real issue. I have a friend who flies, but can’t wear a mask due to her claustrophobia.

So now you get into the sticky wicket of disabilities and the ADA. Airlines are put into an inevitable position. At some point I’m sure this will be tested legally.

Right now I’m sitting on Breckenridge where their is an ordinance that one MUST wear a mask to enter a retail shop. I’m wondering how long before the ACLU challenges such an ordinance as there are varying reasons a person can’t or won’t wear a mask. Just like some people can’t or won’t take a vaccine.

As for me, I’ll wear a mask. Not to protect myself but to protect others around me.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 4, 2020)

M


csodjd said:


> If all 40 have common aspects, such as a common protein synthesis pathway for its "spikes," or its tools of replication, that's all you need -- an antibody response that attacks that common spot. Boom, all 40 variations (if there are 40 variations) are neutralized.
> 
> You said, "We just need herd immunity!" That would never happen unless almost everyone was infected with all 40 variations under your theory.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 4, 2020)

@dougp26364 I am wondering if clear face shields might be an option for your claustrophobic friend? I am not claustrophobic but started wearing one. Much more comfortable, doesn't fog, and provides superior protection for the wearer.









						Are Face Shields Better Than Face Masks for Coronavirus? - MedicineNet Health News
					

Hundreds of millions of Americans heeded recent government advice and rushed to wear cloth face masks, hoping they might prevent transmission of the new coronavirus.




					www.medicinenet.com
				




Would the airlines accept a shield without a mask?


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## csodjd (Jun 4, 2020)

dougp26364 said:


> So here’s an issue with enforcing masks, not everyone can wear one. Claustrophobia is a very real issue. I have a friend who flies, but can’t wear a mask due to her claustrophobia.
> 
> So now you get into the sticky wicket of disabilities and the ADA. Airlines are put into an inevitable position. At some point I’m sure this will be tested legally.
> 
> ...


Well there's obviously a difference between "can't" and "won't." In my view, won't isn't defensible. You can choose. Fly or don't fly. There are LOTS of restrictions on flying, most based on safety. This is just another.

The disabilities/ADA thing is, I believe, a red herring. If we assume that claustrophobia IS a "disability" under ADA law (a mental impairment that limits one or more life activities), the ADA doesn't say the disabled individual ipso facto gets to choose what he will or will not do or what the employer/business must do. It says there must be a discussion to find if a "reasonable accommodation" is available and if there isn't one, then the disabled person is out of luck. In this case, I'd suggest that, inasmuch as being claustrophobic doesn't mean you can't infect 100 people with COVID, it is FAR more reasonable that you be tested for active infection as a requirement for not wearing a mask than you be allowed to go without a mask untested. The ADA is a balancing test between the impact on the disabled individual and the impact on the employer/business. Here we are dealing with, not the employer/business, but innocent third parties being exposed to a potentially fatal disease. That puts a pretty heavy weight on one side of the scale for the "disabled" person to overcome. A COVID test is not so burdensome as to overcome the risk of killing innocent bystanders.


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## Xan (Jun 15, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Well there's obviously a difference between "can't" and "won't." In my view, won't isn't defensible. You can choose. Fly or don't fly. There are LOTS of restrictions on flying, most based on safety. This is just another.
> 
> The disabilities/ADA thing is, I believe, a red herring. If we assume that claustrophobia IS a "disability" under ADA law (a mental impairment that limits one or more life activities), the ADA doesn't say the disabled individual ipso facto gets to choose what he will or will not do or what the employer/business must do. It says there must be a discussion to find if a "reasonable accommodation" is available and if there isn't one, then the disabled person is out of luck. In this case, I'd suggest that, inasmuch as being claustrophobic doesn't mean you can't infect 100 people with COVID, it is FAR more reasonable that you be tested for active infection as a requirement for not wearing a mask than you be allowed to go without a mask untested. The ADA is a balancing test between the impact on the disabled individual and the impact on the employer/business. Here we are dealing with, not the employer/business, but innocent third parties being exposed to a potentially fatal disease. That puts a pretty heavy weight on one side of the scale for the "disabled" person to overcome. A COVID test is not so burdensome as to overcome the risk of killing innocent bystanders.



By ADA rules, “they” can’t ask you your disability or nor do you have to show or carry proof.
I can’t wear a mask, I tried, not putting myself through that ordeal again!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## csodjd (Jun 15, 2020)

Xan said:


> By ADA rules, “they” can’t ask you your disability or nor do you have to show or carry proof.
> I can’t wear a mask, I tried, not putting myself through that ordeal again!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's fine. But the ADA is not a free pass to do whatever you want. 

If the "accommodation" is not reasonable you are not entitled to it. You are also not entitled to YOUR suggested accommodation, you are entitled to a reasonable accommodation. It is NOT EVEN CLOSE that an "accommodation" that puts the lives of others at risk is "reasonable." So, if you can't wear a mask, that's fine. But you also can't board the plane unless there is some other accommodation that is "reasonable." For instance, you take two COVID PCR tests, 48 hours apart, within 5 days of departure, and quarantine during those 5 days so that you are not "newly" exposed. Perhaps that's reasonable. 

Just remember that since the other side of the scale is a potential fatal disease, the burden on you to show the accommodation is reasonable is a pretty high one because it will have to ELIMINATE the risk you pose.


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## Country Roads (Jun 16, 2020)

American said it already enforces the policy at the gate and "will deny boarding to customers who don’t comply." However, effective immediately, the airline "may also deny future travel for customers who refuse to wear a face covering."

Meanwhile, United said that starting June 18, passengers who do not wear a face covering will be placed on an internal travel restriction list.










						American, United Airlines strengthen coronavirus face-covering policies
					

American and United had already begun requiring passengers and flight attendants to wear face coverings while onboard aircraft to prevent the spread of the novel coronavirus.




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## bnoble (Jun 16, 2020)

Interesting. That would seem to indicate that the winds of public opinion are blowing more strongly in favor of face coverings than I suspected---and that is reassuring.


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## csodjd (Jun 16, 2020)

bnoble said:


> Interesting. That would seem to indicate that the winds of public opinion are blowing more strongly in favor of face coverings than I suspected---and that is reassuring.


Not surprising. More research is coming out showing how effective face coverings are at preventing spread. Airlines need two things: passengers feeling they'll be safe on the plane and keeping their crews from becoming infected. (While one passenger could infect a couple others, one flight attendant could infect 50 others.)


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## bbodb1 (Jun 16, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Not surprising. More research is coming out showing how effective face coverings are at preventing spread. Airlines need two things: passengers feeling they'll be safe on the plane and keeping their crews from becoming infected. (While one passenger could infect a couple others, one flight attendant could infect 50 others.)


to expand upon that point a bit, I think research seems to be suggesting the greatest danger is in breathing shared air in a confined indoor space.
it is even worse when there is minimal circulation and/or air movement.


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## csodjd (Jun 16, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> to expand upon that point a bit, I think research seems to be suggesting the greatest danger is in breathing shared air in a confined indoor space.
> it is even worse when there is minimal circulation and/or air movement.


Yes. That's because the viral load accumulates. It seems increasingly clear that viral load is a key component in this infection. Circulate the air and virus does not accumulate. Outside is safer than inside. Open area is safer than closed in area. Circulating air is safer than stagnant air. It all makes sense.


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## bbodb1 (Jun 16, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Yes. That's because the viral load accumulates. It seems increasingly clear that viral load is a key component in this infection. Circulate the air and virus does not accumulate. Outside is safer than inside. Open area is safer than closed in area. Circulating air is safer than stagnant air. It all makes sense.


Very well summarized and stated @csodjd - this is what gives me cause for concern as August comes and we attempt to return to schools.  Overcrowded classrooms with ancient HVAC systems are bad enough, but from what I hear and read, many schools (at present anyway) have not come up with a way to increase social distancing within the confines of their buildings.  

Hallway flow, cafeterias, buses, classrooms and athletic events all have to be rethought and re implemented in safer manners (procedures).  That does not seem to be occurring at present and one has to wonder what the powers that be are waiting for.  Our governor (Asa Hutchinson) has recently mentioned the need for plans like this but no one seems to be stepping up with details.


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## Cornell (Jun 16, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Very well summarized and stated @csodjd - this is what gives me cause for concern as August comes and we attempt to return to schools.  Overcrowded classrooms with ancient HVAC systems are bad enough, but from what I hear and read, many schools (at present anyway) have not come up with a way to increase social distancing within the confines of their buildings.
> 
> Hallway flow, cafeterias, buses, classrooms and athletic events all have to be rethought and re implemented in safer manners (procedures).  That does not seem to be occurring at present and one has to wonder what the powers that be are waiting for.  Our governor (Asa Hutchinson) has recently mentioned the need for plans like this but no one seems to be stepping up with details.


Return to school?  I wish we could be so lucky.


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## csodjd (Jun 16, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Very well summarized and stated @csodjd - this is what gives me cause for concern as August comes and we attempt to return to schools.  Overcrowded classrooms with ancient HVAC systems are bad enough, but from what I hear and read, many schools (at present anyway) have not come up with a way to increase social distancing within the confines of their buildings.
> 
> Hallway flow, cafeterias, buses, classrooms and athletic events all have to be rethought and re implemented in safer manners (procedures).  That does not seem to be occurring at present and one has to wonder what the powers that be are waiting for.  Our governor (Asa Hutchinson) has recently mentioned the need for plans like this but no one seems to be stepping up with details.


Just a good fan in a classroom, with the kids separated 5-6 feet, would probably go a long way. 

My daughter is in grad school at UCLA. UCLA just announced that for undergrads about 15-20% of classes will be on campus (mostly labs and similar classes) and the remainder will be remote online. Her school has not yet said what their program adjustments will be. USC announced that all its classes would be both online and in person, student's choice.


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## Cornell (Jun 16, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Just a good fan in a classroom, with the kids separated 5-6 feet, would probably go a long way.
> 
> My daughter is in grad school at UCLA. UCLA just announced that for undergrads about 15-20% of classes will be on campus (mostly labs and similar classes) and the remainder will be remote online. Her school has not yet said what their program adjustments will be. USC announced that all its classes would be both online and in person, student's choice.


A good fan:  That won’t fly in IL as blow dries are banned in hair salons .


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## PigsDad (Jun 16, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Just a good fan in a classroom, with the kids separated 5-6 feet, would probably go a long way.


Just moving the air around in the room I don't think would help much -- you really need to move air _through _the room, bringing in fresh air and exhausting it outside.  Not sure if many classrooms are set up to enable that.



> My daughter is in grad school at UCLA. UCLA just announced that for undergrads about 15-20% of classes will be on campus (mostly labs and similar classes) and the remainder will be remote online. Her school has not yet said what their program adjustments will be. USC announced that all its classes would be both online and in person, student's choice.


And their announcing a reduction in the tuition fees along with this, right?      

So far, my daughter's school in Arizona (Embry Riddle Aeronautical) has stated all classes will be in person this fall.  They are breaking up some of the larger classes to smaller sections, but since it is a small school, the "large" classes were 40-50 students.  Hopefully their plan will hold.

Kurt


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 16, 2020)

Masks, Masks, and Masks - the main mode of viral transmission are by air (micro)droplets, and not contact transmission.

Social Distancing and Washing Hands are far from adequate.
Do not congregate indoors with others not wearing adequate masks!
(can’t blow out a match while wearing mask)









						Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19
					

We have elucidated the transmission pathways of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in the three epicenters. Our results show that the airborne transmission route is highly virulent and dominant for the spread of COVID-19. The mitigation measures...




					www.pnas.org
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## csodjd (Jun 16, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Just moving the air around in the room I don't think would help much -- you really need to move air _through _the room, bringing in fresh air and exhausting it outside.  Not sure if many classrooms are set up to enable that.
> 
> 
> And their announcing a reduction in the tuition fees along with this, right?
> ...


I'd have a healthy concern for any plans Arizona is using to help prevent spread. They are breaking one record after another since Memorial weekend for new cases in a day. Almost 2400 today. New record. They currently have the highest Rt value in the United States at 1.11 which corresponds to the community spread occurring there. "The 7-day rolling average of new cases has essentially tripled now from what it was at the start of June."









						Arizona Sets Record For New Coronavirus Cases—Tops Old Record By Almost 45%
					

Hospitalizations also hit an all-time high.




					www.forbes.com


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## am1 (Jun 16, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Very well summarized and stated @csodjd - this is what gives me cause for concern as August comes and we attempt to return to schools.  Overcrowded classrooms with ancient HVAC systems are bad enough, but from what I hear and read, many schools (at present anyway) have not come up with a way to increase social distancing within the confines of their buildings.
> 
> Hallway flow, cafeterias, buses, classrooms and athletic events all have to be rethought and re implemented in safer manners (procedures).  That does not seem to be occurring at present and one has to wonder what the powers that be are waiting for.  Our governor (Asa Hutchinson) has recently mentioned the need for plans like this but no one seems to be stepping up with details.



very expensive short term and may not be needed long term until the next pandemic.


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## bbodb1 (Jun 16, 2020)

am1 said:


> very expensive short term and may not be needed long term until the next pandemic.


It is worth noting the bulk of my educational experience is in the elementary grades and I note that because every year we seem to run close to closing due to a flu or stomach virus bug that runs through the school.  (There is a magic number of absences that once passed essentially means a school day might be in danger of not counting toward our state mandated 178 days).  

Some of the practices and changes we are likely to bring about due to COVID-19 may help us avoid these school 'runs' of the flu and stomach bugs.  Also, more attention to personal hygiene has got to be a win-win outcome as well.  I hope we can make a lot of positive changes emerge from this pandemic.


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## MULTIZ321 (Jun 16, 2020)

Major airlines, including United, say face mask scofflaws can't fly. But enforcement may be tricky. 










						Major airlines, including United, say face mask scofflaws can’t fly. But enforcement may be tricky.
					

Airlines say they’re cracking down on passengers who flout rules requiring face coverings on flights, with some threatening to ban travelers who refuse to comply.




					www.chicagotribune.com
				





Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Jun 17, 2020)

US Airlines Plan To Crackdown if You Flout Face Mask Rules.










						US Airlines Crackdown If You Flout Face Mask Rules
					

As a new study finds face masks critical in preventing Covid-19, airlines are responding. By threatening to pull-up and penalize passengers who flout the rules, under tough new policies. From June 18 United Airlines says it may revoke flying privileges of customers who refuse to wear face covering.




					www.forbes.com
				



.


Richard


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## x3 skier (Jun 17, 2020)

I’ve taken 8 flights in the past two weeks and there was total compliance with mask wearing and no incidents. 

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (Jun 17, 2020)

On Day Two Of Enforcing Mask Requirement, American Airlines Gets A Passenger Who Won't 
Wear One 










						On Day Two Of Enforcing Mask Requirement, American Airlines Gets A Passenger Who Won’t Wear One
					

On the second day of its new policy to require that passengers wear a face mask, an American Airlines crew ran into a provocateur who would not wear one.




					www.forbes.com
				





Richard


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## Ken555 (Jun 17, 2020)

Friends were on flights last week and several people, at least, would not wear masks. I’ve seen the pics. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Luanne (Jun 17, 2020)

I can see all kinds of people claiming "medical" reasons, and since a note isn't required there isn't much the airlines can do.  Too bad they're not requiring a note for non-compliance.


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## Country Roads (Jun 18, 2020)

The Federal Aviation Administration won't require the wearing of masks on commercial aircraft, continuing to leave that issue to individual airlines, the agency's chief said Wednesday.









						Only 'guidelines': FAA won't make wearing of face masks on airlines mandatory
					

The Federal Aviation Administration won't require the wearing of masks on commercial aircraft, continuing to leave that issue to individual airlines.



					www.usatoday.com


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## Luanne (Jun 19, 2020)

MULTIZ321 said:


> On Day Two Of Enforcing Mask Requirement, American Airlines Gets A Passenger Who Won't
> Wear One
> 
> 
> ...


And according to an article I saw in the paper this morning, this man has been banned from flying until the airlines remove the requirement for masks.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ine-for-refusing-to-wear-a-face-mask-12010087


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2020)

I’ll gladly wear a cloth mask than having to wear one that drops from the cabin. Interesting question though. Do they say in their safety Briefing to remove your face mask before putting on your facemask? I assume we still out our mask first before assisting others with theirs lol.


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## Sugarcubesea (Jun 19, 2020)

My cousin flew into to see family on Delta and told me Delta actually refused to board two people at the gate that would not wear the mask. He told me his flight which happened this past Wednesday had the middle seats empty but the plane had only about 20 seats open.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 19, 2020)

Luanne said:


> And according to an article I saw in the paper this morning, this man has been banned from flying until the airlines remove the requirement for masks.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ine-for-refusing-to-wear-a-face-mask-12010087


Not banned from flying in general.   Banned from American Airlines.

In my opinion businesses should be free to set their own rules and requirements for conducting operations and serving the public,  provided that those rules and requirements do not violate laws.  So if American Airlines (or Costco) insists that all passengers wear masks, they are well within their rights to do so.  If someone doesn't like that, then they should take their business elsewhere, rewarding those other companies with their business.  Meanwhile other who want all customers to have masks take their business to the companies that require masks. 

IMHO - that's the American Way, not just the American Airlines way.


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## Luanne (Jun 19, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Not banned from flying in general.   Banned from American Airlines.
> 
> In my opinion businesses should be free to set their own rules and requirements for conducting operations and serving the public,  provided that those rules and requirements do not violate laws.  So if American Airlines (or Costco) insists that all passengers wear masks, they are well within their rights to do so.  If someone doesn't like that, then they should take their business elsewhere, rewarding those other companies with their business.  Meanwhile other who want all customers to have masks take their business to the companies that require masks.
> 
> IMHO - that's the American Way, not just the American Airlines way.


Well, it's a start.  I wonder if airlines requiring masks will share this information with one another.

I found this article that says what various airlines are doing.  It does sound like they are operating independently of each other since the FAA has not put anything into place for ALL airlines.

"United Airlines came out Monday with its own separate announcement that has more teeth than what it's been doing so far. If you refuse to wear a face mask starting June 18, you could find yourself on a restricted travel list." I don't know if this is the "no fly" list that all airlines use, or something just for United.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airlines-face-masks-passengers/index.html


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 19, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Well, it's a start.  I wonder if airlines requiring masks will share this information with one another.
> 
> I found this article that says what various airlines are doing.  It does sound like they are operating independently of each other since the FAA has not put anything into place for ALL airlines.
> 
> ...


The article I read said that he was rebooked on a later flight.  It didn't say whether he wore a mask on that later flight.


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## Luanne (Jun 19, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The article I read said that he was rebooked on a later flight.  It didn't say whether he wore a mask on that later flight.


He was banned after the second flight I believe. And in at least one article I read he did wear a mask when he boarded the second flight, but took it off (proudly) after he boarded.  Here is one article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedree...s-a-passenger-who-wont-wear-one/#1dc849f850f3


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## PigsDad (Jun 19, 2020)

Luanne said:


> It does sound like they are operating independently of each other since the FAA has not put anything into place for ALL airlines.


There has been very little coordination of Covid-related regulations at the federal level, so this does not surprise me.

Kurt


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## Brett (Jun 20, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Not banned from flying in general.   Banned from American Airlines.
> 
> In my opinion businesses should be free to set their own rules and requirements for conducting operations and serving the public,  provided that those rules and requirements do not violate laws.  So if American Airlines (or Costco) insists that all passengers wear masks, they are well within their rights to do so.  If someone doesn't like that, then they should take their business elsewhere, rewarding those other companies with their business.  Meanwhile other who want all customers to have masks take their business to the companies that require masks.
> 
> IMHO - that's the American Way, not just the American Airlines way.



there are no FAA guidelines on masks but it appears all the major airlines require masks for boarding


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 20, 2020)

I wonder if the best way for airlines to approach this is via workplace safety.  Every employer is obligated to crate a safe work environment for employees, regardless of what regulated workplace standards might be. If OSHA rules are inadequate, than the employer is required to go beyond those standards as necessary. 

So I don't see why the airline can't establish workplace safety requirements that include requirements for mask, as long as the government hasn't preempted the issue.  (Which they haven't done.)


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## bbodb1 (Jun 20, 2020)

With respect to the bolded part below:


T_R_Oglodyte said:


> *In my opinion businesses should be free to set their own rules and requirements for conducting operations and serving the public,  provided that those rules and requirements do not violate laws*.  So if American Airlines (or Costco) insists that all passengers wear masks, they are well within their rights to do so.  If someone doesn't like that, then they should take their business elsewhere, rewarding those other companies with their business.  Meanwhile other who want all customers to have masks take their business to the companies that require masks.
> 
> IMHO - that's the American Way, not just the American Airlines way.



as someone who is not a mask wearer, I do defer to the posted rules of an establishment with respect to masks.  If they have made the effort to post mask requirements as a condition of entering their establishment, I'll either comply with them or go elsewhere.  At present, this means we do not dine in at restaurants but that is about all we cannot do at present that we need to do.  
I just don't see a requirement of wearing a mask as something worth challenging and I don't understand why those who do have a problem with mask requirements simply don't take their business elsewhere - especially for those who live in areas where there are options.


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## Cornell (Jun 20, 2020)

@bbdob1 How brave of you to admit you are not a mask wearer.  I am exactly like you -- I am aware of which businesses require masks and absolutely comply when that's their policy.  It's not a hill worth dying on , so to speak, to get into a big fight with a business over not wearing a mask (if they choose to have a rule which requires them). 

There are certain retailers that I  actively avoid b/c of some of their policies and I take my business elsewhere.  Likewise, these businesses might be attracting MORE customers b/c of their policies and that's great.  That's what a free market economy is all about.


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## bnoble (Jun 20, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I wonder if the best way for airlines to approach this is via workplace safety


Are you thinking as a fig leaf for defusing unhappy customers, or as the justification for requiring it at all?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 20, 2020)

bnoble said:


> Are you thinking as a fig leaf for defusing unhappy customers, or as the justification for requiring it at all?


Totally as the justification.  In a retail store, there are many employees who are in constant interaction with members of the public, during their entire work shift.  The the grocery store for example.  I'm in there for half an hour or so, once a week.  The employees are there for the full shift.  Their potential exposure is so much greater.  By requiring masks of the customers, the store is undertaking best practices for employee protection.  

If someone is a visitor at a construction site, they must follow the safety rules at the site.  They don't get a pass on site safety rules just because they are not employees.


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