# I got a bill from VRI for $89... for "seeding Points"



## skimble (Apr 1, 2010)

I own two separate RCI Points weeks, and I've owned them for 4-5 years.  I've never seen anything like this...  a FEE for seeding points.  

Here's the letter they sent:
"Congratulations on extending your RCI Points for another three years.  You are joining thousands of homeowners who have made the same choice.  
With each (three yera) renewal, VRI has the responsibility to 'seed' the inventory you own into the RCI Points reservation system:  and to ensure that you have the maximum time available to you when polanning your vacations.  Accordingly, there is an $89 administrative fee which is charged once for every 3 years.  
We have enclosed and invoce..." blah blah... etc.etc.

Is this another money grab?  VRI is typically one of the most upright of the management companies, but like government agencies right now, are they stretching deep to find sources of extra revenue?


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## timeos2 (Apr 1, 2010)

It sounds like your 3 year renewal for RCI Points. Strangely worded however. I'd give them a call & see what exactly it is.


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## skimble (Apr 1, 2010)

I called the resort, and it is a money grab.  
There are over 13,000 Points owners at WCR.  The administration of points is time-intensive and more costly, therefore the board voted to assign a new fee associated with these costs every three years to Points owners.  
I politely griped (oxymoron) about this, and the representative from VRI offered to waive the fee this one time as a courtesy.  

FOR ALL WHO RECEIVE THIS BILL... CALL VRI AND LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS.  THEY HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO DROP THIS FEE.  

Politically, I don't understand this move by the board.  Already, this resort has high maintenance fees, and there was a special assessment about 3 years ago.  They really stand to anger people over this.  People are going to call; they are going to complain to the board; they are going to abdicate payment; and some might even allow their week to go into foreclosure.  It doesn't take much to trigger people in this economy.


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## Mel (Apr 1, 2010)

If the changes RCI is apparently bringing to the Weeks program come to fruition, many of those points owners may simply wish to revert back to "weeks."


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 1, 2010)

Mel said:


> If the changes RCI is apparently bringing to the Weeks program come to fruition, many of those points owners may simply wish to revert back to "weeks."



Why would owners do that?  I dislike weeks now, and their new system will somehow benefit RCI further, whatever changes they make.  Unless the cost per point is really high, I would stick with Points.  It's a much better system, at least right now. 

I think this is a cheap money grab, and I would be angry about it, too.  What are your fees and how many points do you get?


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2010)

> Why would owners do that? I dislike weeks now, and their new system will somehow benefit RCI further, whatever changes they make.


Well, I for one had been considering getting some access to Points, but have decided to put that on hold until I see what's coming down the pike with Weeks.  If it comes to pass the way it has been reported, I will probably abandon any entree into Points for now.  The ability to combine "currency" from different deposits to get a more sought-after week would solve my biggest headache with Weeks right now---that no matter what I'm willing to give up, there are some things I just can't get.  For example, if I were able to boost a fixed week with a "right-sized" Wyndahm generic deposit to put it over the top, that solves most of my problems.  

The ability to get "change back" will probably help me, as well---though I already approximate this with "right-sized" Wyndham deposits instead of using my (stronger) fixed weeks.

The other reason to favor Points is that, for some areas/times, Points just has flat-out more inventory than Weeks.  For me, that hasn't been too much of an issue so far.  The stuff I want is there in Weeks, but sometimes I just can't get it.


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## timeos2 (Apr 1, 2010)

*The money is needed but how to collect it?*



skimble said:


> I called the resort, and it is a money grab.
> There are over 13,000 Points owners at WCR.  The administration of points is time-intensive and more costly, therefore the board voted to assign a new fee associated with these costs every three years to Points owners.
> I politely griped (oxymoron) about this, and the representative from VRI offered to waive the fee this one time as a courtesy.
> 
> ...




I like VRI management very much but they aren't perfect.  One of the items they brought to us as a Board when we first changed over management to them was the idea of a fee for RCI (or II, etc) deposit. They felt it was a way to raise much needed (at that time) funds for the Association by charging those that used a service. We did enact the fee but when talking with other Board's about it as well as after feedback from owners decided to waive it the first year and then rescinded it entirely. The negative feedback was far more than the small amount collected. 

What it did prove was that VRI will attempt to find every way they can to maximize Association income (not VRI's as they are paid a flat management rate and wouldn't have benefited from the fee) but not every idea is a good one. It is still up to the Board to make choices and set up proper funding they can feel comfortable with.  Sometimes it is far better to simply bite the bullet and collect what is needed spread evenly over every owner and not try to single out any items unless they really are costly and limited to only a few users. Nickle and dimes add up and don't make for happy owners.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 1, 2010)

*Fee For Service Is 1 Thing.  Fee For Essentially Nothing Is Something Else Again.*




timeos2 said:


> I like VRI management very much but they aren't perfect.


I'm likewise still OK with VRI. 

Shux, nobody's perfect.  


timeos2 said:


> One of the items they brought to us as a Board when we first changed over management to them was the idea of a fee for RCI (or II, etc) deposit.


I can't figure what the owners would be getting for that fee that the owners aren't already getting at no cost. 

That is, anybody who belongs to RCI & wants to deposit a timeshare week for future exchange just has to call up RCI, & _-- WHAP ! --_ the week is banked, _el freebo._ 

Ditto banking a week via internet.  

Presumably something similar is the case with I-I. 

So exactly what service would owners be getting from VRI if they paid that deposit fee ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2010)

Presumably, the justification was that it takes staff time to verify that the fees for deposited weeks have been paid, the named depositor still owns that week, etc. etc. etc. and so the fee helps recover the costs of that time.

Not that it justifies it, but there you go.


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## JudyS (Apr 1, 2010)

skimble said:


> I own two separate RCI Points weeks, and I've owned them for 4-5 years.  I've never seen anything like this...  a FEE for seeding points. ...


 I haven't been charged this fee yet for my Points contract at Winners Circle Resort, but I was charged a similar fee a year or two ago for a Points contract at another VRI-managed resort. 

I'm not actually sure if this charge is originated by the resort, by VRI, or by RCI. 

Are there really 13,000 points owners at Winners Circle Resort? I see plenty of inventory for Winners Circle when I search RCI Weeks using a summer week at another SoCal resort, but I saw little or nothing last time I searched for Winners Circle on RCI Points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 1, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Presumably, the justification was that it takes staff time to verify that the fees for deposited weeks have been paid, the named depositor still owns that week, etc. etc. etc. and so the fee helps recover the costs of that time.
> 
> Not that it justifies it, but there you go.



I know you don't agree with the fee for deposited weeks, anymore than I do, and I can see that is exactly how they would justify it. 

This is a MAIN task of a management company, so owners would be outraged by a change to a company that would find this practice acceptable.  

I am still considering VRI, when our management contract is up with Alderwood for Twin Rivers, but I wouldn't fall for such an idea to milk owners out of more money.  That's too out of the ordinary, even crazy weird!


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## timeos2 (Apr 1, 2010)

*Pay now or pay later*



rickandcindy23 said:


> I know you don't agree with the fee for deposited weeks, anymore than I do, and I can see that is exactly how they would justify it.
> 
> This is a MAIN task of a management company, so owners would be outraged by a change to a company that would find this practice acceptable.
> 
> I am still considering VRI, when our management contract is up with Alderwood for Twin Rivers, but I wouldn't fall for such an idea to milk owners out of more money.  That's too out of the ordinary, even crazy weird!



Just to be clear. The owners pay for the service somehow along the way. The question was is it in the standard annual fee OR billed only to those that actually deposit with RCI/II, etc.  We were, for a short period, convinced that having only those that used it pay it (thus saving $3 or so per owner on the annual fees if I recall the right number) but then reversed our decision and left it in the annual fees. Now that less than 40% of our owners actually deposit with an exchange company - the number gets lower every year it seems - at some point maybe it will get revisited. On the other hand it would irritate me to be charged so my personal vote may remain to leave it hidden in the annual fee.  

Everything that happens at a timeshare carries a cost. The owners or the users pay for it. It's just a question of how broken down is it & what is the total.  Nothing is free and no one gives services away.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 1, 2010)

*I'm Still Not Getting It.*




timeos2 said:


> Nothing is free and no one gives services away.


I know I am not the sharpest knife in the dishwasher.  

Maybe that's why I don't see how it costs a timeshare resort anything when an owner banks a week with RCI or I-I. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2010)

Alan, allow me to sharpen your knife.

Owner deposits week with RCI.
RCI must make sure that the owner has the right to do so.
RCI calls, faxes, or otherwise asks the resort:
"Say, does Joe Blow have usage rights for Unit 42, Week 19, 2011, there at Mugwump?"
Some resort management staff member must:
* Make sure that Joe Blow is the name still on the deed.
* Make sure that Joe has paid 2011 (and 2010 and 2009) MFs
* Make sure the unit size/etc. are all correct.
and respond.

Later, when a week is confirmed (or canceled) the resort is notified that Jane Smith will now (or will no longer) be occupying Unit 42, Week 19, 2011, and someone has to write that down.  When Jane adds a name via guest certificate (or changes that name), the resort is notified and someone has to write *that* down.

That all takes a little bit of time.  Not a lot of time for any one transaction, certainly, but you could imagine that for a moderate-size resort, just handling deposit/exchange notifications could become a reasonable fraction of some working stiff's time.  That stiff has to be paid, an office provided, with telephone, maybe even with modest benefits, and so on.

And, given the way some timeshare owners obsess over every little nickel, you could actually imagine some Grumpy Gus who never exchanges his Thanksgiving week at Mugwump (after all, it's tradition to have turkey at Mugwump) being put off by the few dollars in his bottom line that go to pay for all of this exchange nonsense.

Again, not saying I agree with that line of thinking, but you can imagine someone following it.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 1, 2010)

But John, I have a management proposal for VRI, and they have no "extra charge" in that proposal for exchanging a week.  That is included in a management company's fees, not in addition to.  

Although I do see how they could justify charging that fee, with the reasoning that most don't use it, and then add that amount of money to the general budget (because it should be EXTRA money).


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## DerekS (Apr 1, 2010)

bnoble said:


> I ... had been considering getting some access to Points, but have decided to put that on hold until I see what's coming down the pike with Weeks.  If it comes to pass the way it has been reported......


Brian, I am not up to speed here. What is happening with Weeks, and where is it discussed?


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2010)

Still rumor at this point, but from several (presumably independent) sources through several different TUGgers:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118636


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 2, 2010)

We had a pediatrician one time who simply got sick of insurance company paperwork and coordination and decided he wasn't going to do it anymore.

He got rid of all of his staff who were there just to deal insurance companies, and dropped his rates.  It was then up to us to file the insurance paperwork and get reimbursed.  They would give us the codes, etc., that we needed to fill out the insurance company paperwork.  But he no longer handled the paperwork.  

It seems to me that perhaps this is similar.  If the resort interface with RCI points makes added work (i.e., expense) for the resort, then it makes sense to attempt to recoup that added expense from the owners who are involved with RCI Points.

++++++

I think it's interesting that Winners Circle might be doing this, as WC has one of the most active and involved owner controlled Boards of Directors around.


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## teepeeca (Apr 2, 2010)

Now, I guess I'm "dense".  Isn't it the management's company to not only manage the resort, BUT, to handle ALL exchanges, including "point" type exchanges???  That is what they are being paid (and VERY WELL PAID) for.

Please explain to me if/where I am wrong.

Tony


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 2, 2010)

teepeeca said:


> Now, I guess I'm "dense".  Isn't it the management's company to not only manage the resort, BUT, to handle ALL exchanges, including "point" type exchanges???  That is what they are being paid (and VERY WELL PAID) for.
> 
> Please explain to me if/where I am wrong.
> 
> Tony



This is my take.  The very nature of timeshare is exchange.  But the management company isn't charging the resorts more for the service, it is automatically assumed that timeshare owners will exchange.  The HOA is thinking this will help their budget, so the HOA is choosing this route.  

I don't want to bash VRI, a superior management company.  They are just trying to help the resort see some other ways of bringing in probably much-needed cash.


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## timeos2 (Apr 2, 2010)

*How we heard it*



rickandcindy23 said:


> But John, I have a management proposal for VRI, and they have no "extra charge" in that proposal for exchanging a week.  That is included in a management company's fees, not in addition to.
> 
> Although I do see how they could justify charging that fee, with the reasoning that most don't use it, and then add that amount of money to the general budget (because it should be EXTRA money).



I'm going back to 2001 when we first set up our agreement with VRI.  At that time they were identifying each and every area of expense and our options for covering it. In reviewing my notes the actual number then was $96,000/year or about $11 per owner in our case. The proposal was to reduce the annual fee by $11/week, but charge $25 to the owner for any deposits to RCI, II, etc. As it turns out we never actually charged it (although other resorts did). 

Again realize that our old management was also charging the fee but it was buried in a "general" number. VRI was ready & willing to identify what part of the overall charges went to the exchange process. Also realize that the TOTAL management fee charged by VRI (again at that time) was to be $385,000 vs the over $900,000 the previous company was billing us. VRI was a fixed rate vs a percentage (the more we billed the more they made!) the other group wanted. We can say it's "free" when it's unidentified in a gross number or we can have a breakdown of each area they handle and know what it is costing us as an Association to handle exchange requests for owners.  It's paid either way - how informed does the Board want to be about how the costs add up? We are better serving owners if we know that there is a cost, what it is and we make an informed decision that it is a cost of doing business best included in the base annual fee or an extra best paid by the actual users. 

Interestingly since that time sources at VRI have stated that the idea "wasn't the best", but at least they tried and are always willing to expose every area of expense. As Brian says there is time and effort (and people) needed to accomplish this basic function, so the cost must be covered somewhere.  And they are open to negotiations about exactly how things are billed and what it will cost. Exactly what we want in a management group.  They aren't the only independent management group nor the only ones to offer that type of breakdown but they have delivered as promised to our resorts.


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## Fern Modena (Apr 2, 2010)

Did they send you something that said the charge was for "seeding?"  If they did, perhaps you should tell them you don't want to grow anything.   And then offer to teach them grammar, for a fee, of course.  I am pretty sure what they meant to say was "ceding" which sounds the same but means what you described, something all together different than planting.

Just a little laff for the day.

Fern


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## skimble (Apr 2, 2010)

Fern Modena said:


> Did they send you something that said the charge was for "seeding?"  If they did, perhaps you should tell them you don't want to grow anything.   And then offer to teach them grammar, for a fee, of course.  I am pretty sure what they meant to say was "ceding" which sounds the same but means what you described, something all together different than planting.
> 
> Just a little laff for the day.
> 
> Fern



Fern, 
I quoted them directly.  And, their version of seeding was what a term for what they do prior to our points being there for utilization.  The lady I spoke with, in her explanation said VRI nees to seed those points with RCI or plant them in the system.  
Ceding might be the result of this.  Personally, I now know I have 3 years to sell or revoke the Points affiliation.  Considering, I own week 28, it might be wise for me to use it or rent it.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 2, 2010)

*Put The Nuisance Fees Where They Belong.*




timeos2 said:


> In reviewing my notes the actual number then was $96,000/year or about $11 per owner in our case. The proposal was to reduce the annual fee by $11/week, but charge $25 to the owner for any deposits to RCI, II, etc. As it turns out we never actually charged it (although other resorts did).


Shux, much as RCI charges for membership, & now for exchanges as well, it would make more sense for RCI to pay the $11 to the resort than for the individual owner to pay it.  

Of course, RCI would actually just be passing the cost on to its members who are doing the exchanges.  But that way it would no longer place the timeshare HOA in the position of having to choose between charging owners who exchange on the 1 hand or on the other hand charging everybody (via higher annual fees) regardless of whether they exchange or don't exchange.  


T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If the resort interface with RCI points makes added work (i.e., expense) for the resort, then it makes sense to attempt to recoup that added expense from the owners who are involved with RCI Points.


Yeh, I suppose.  Maybe -- but no more for RCI Points than for good old plain vanilla RCI Weeks.  

In any case, extra costs to the resort caused by exchanging should be paid by the exchange company & recovered via membership fees & exchange fees, etc., that the RCI & I-I members pay to those companies.  That's fairer than making all owners at the timeshare pay via higher annual fees, because not all owners bank their weeks for exchange.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Lee B (Apr 4, 2010)

If I am a RCI Points member and decide to include my WCR in that membership, I effectively turn over three years of interval usage to RCI.  If I want to stay in my interval one year, I watch the calendar for the precise time to tell RCI I will be using my interval myself.

As others have said, the VRI management company has to deal with RCI regarding those three years of usage.  So if I don't want to cede those weeks to RCI at all, I remove my WCR from the RCI Points program.  I then can exchange my WCR interval with any exchanger, rent it our or visit the resort every year.

If not many WCR owners include this resort in their RCI Weeks program, the expense to any one owner would be minimal spread among all owners. If most WCR owners ARE in the RCI Weeks program, then charging that expense separately or lumping it into the maintenance fee would be almost the same cost to those owners.

This topic may be moot, now that VRI is dropping the Weeks member charge for the "three-year seeding."


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## skimble (Apr 8, 2010)

The plot thickens... 
As luck would have it... I'm on vacation this week, and a member of the board at WCR happens to be staying here this week.  I questioned him about this new fee.  He was totally unaware of it.  
He contacted another board member who also is unaward of this administrative fee.  
He's taken it to VRI.  The management at VRI sent me an email requesting further information about this.  
Since I'm on vacation, I will not be able to give him my original letter showing this $89 assessment until Sunday.  But, my father who is also an owner at WCR (with Points) also got this letter.  He's bringing it to me today when he comes to visit.  
... more to come later


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## JudyS (Apr 8, 2010)

skimble said:


> ...
> Since I'm on vacation, I will not be able to give him my original letter showing this $89 assessment until Sunday.  But, my father who is also an owner at WCR (with Points) also got this letter.  He's bringing it to me today when he comes to visit.
> ... more to come later


Thank you for looking in to this! I also own RCI Points at WCR, and would like to know how this turns out.


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## skimble (Apr 10, 2010)

JudyS said:


> Thank you for looking in to this! I also own RCI Points at WCR, and would like to know how this turns out.



You should be getting your letter soon.  
The board member, since he's not a Points owner, is asking me if there was any fine print informing about this.    Of course not... 
Do you remember any fine print in your purchase agreement about a tri-annual assessment from VRI?  

VRI would not waive the admin fee for my father.  He put if up for sale immediately.  (Is this new fee something that needs to be disclosed to a potential buyer?)


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## JudyS (Apr 10, 2010)

skimble;893954.... said:
			
		

> Do you remember any fine print in your purchase agreement about a tri-annual assessment from VRI?...


I bought "second-hand", so I never saw the original RCI Points purchase agreement. I did get a similar fee (I think it was also $89) for my RCI Points 3-year renewal for a different VRI resort.


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## skimble (Apr 10, 2010)

JudyS said:


> I bought "second-hand", so I never saw the original RCI Points purchase agreement. I did get a similar fee (I think it was also $89) for my RCI Points 3-year renewal for a different VRI resort.



It's a ridiculous fee... call... complain.


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