# VIP Benefits



## cyseitz (May 3, 2013)

I was wondering what the outlook is for VIP benefits. I see that a lot of benefits were taken away.  What do you think the future holds as far VIP benefits.


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## doozy8 (May 3, 2013)

You may want to read the forums.   I am a newbie here too and did alot of searching and reading before I started posting.  You will find that most of the people here aren't original owners and mainly favor resales, which VIP benefits aren't included, it's not worth the extra money to buy directly from the developer just to get those "VIP Benefits".

Good luck in your findings!!


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## vacationhopeful (May 3, 2013)

Platimum purchase from Wyndham now runs over $175,000+. How many bookings at 50% off and unit upgrades do you need to receive before you break even.

For that princely sum, buying a 1MM point resale paskage for $1,000 =.would save you $174K to pay MFs. That is about 29 years of MFs at $6/K. 

If I use my 1MM points for 5 years, I have a sunk cost of $31,000. 

If I use my 1MM (developer brought points) I would have paid $205,000 in sunk cost. Yes, I possible could have vacation on TWICE the number of points and bigger units, BUT I spent $174,000 MORE. And how much vacation time would I had, if I was working FULLTIME to pay my loan $175,000 loan for the points I had brought.


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## cyseitz (May 3, 2013)

I bought my points a few years back.  At the time I did not know anything about resale.  I took my first timeshare tour ever and bought into the idea.  While researching what we had bought I did learn of how we spent a ton of money for nothing.   I realize the error of my ways, but when I realized what I had done, it was too late to fix it.  Please don't look down on me because I was naive about timesharing the time.  

However, I have learned a lot since that day.   I am looking to buy resale and work the system to bring me to Platinum as cheaply as possible.  I plan to buy something (resale of course) that I can PIC into Wyndham.  50% discount is a big discount and will stretch my points a long way.  

This is why I ask this particular question.  We are counting the cost and trying to determine if it is worth the trouble to go to Platinum. Or should I not worry if points are discounted.  

My ultimate goal in all this is to rent out my points to recoup all that we have put into Wyndham.  My husband feels like if he can rent and recoup then he can  feel like he didn't get snookered.  lol... Plus, once we recoup it we can make a profit from it.  We are being more cautious about our next purchase and want to get the most benefit for it.


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## Rent_Share (May 3, 2013)

You are not in the minority finding TUG/Resale after making a developers purchase


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## vacationhopeful (May 3, 2013)

cyseitz -

Getting to Platimum is not my biggest objective - I do have VIP status, but most of my bookings are using the ARP to get either Pompona Beach or Ocean Walk reservations during the highest/Prime seasons.

And yes, I did just pickup a 1MM contract for $1K - total. But the ARP is what I use.

Do I use the discount booking window and available unit upgrades? Yes. 

Are they the majority of my point usage? No.

Has the priviledges of VIP changed since I have owned? SERIOUSLY changed with less/fewer VIP benefits. And along with several other changes, like the overlapping reservations at the 14 day mark and cancelling (losing the points) inside the 14 day mark ... And the $99 Guest Certificate fee .... 

You sure you want to try to rent reservations? Remember, internet ads are NOT all FREE and your time is not FREE and Paypay is NOT FREE and credit card chargebacks HURT.

Just an FYI,


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## cyseitz (May 3, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> cyseitz -
> 
> Has the priviledges of VIP changed since I have owned? SERIOUSLY changed with less/fewer VIP benefits. And along with several other changes, like the overlapping reservations at the 14 day mark and cancelling (losing the points) inside the 14 day mark ... And the $99 Guest Certificate fee ....
> 
> ...



Linda -

What are credit card charge backs?

I hear what you are saying and we are proceeding with caution.  Trying to count the coast and decide if this is for us.


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## wed100105 (May 3, 2013)

What changes are happening now?


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## cyseitz (May 3, 2013)

robcrusoe said:


> There are a couple ways to get to Platinum without spending even a third of that sum.



Please, Enlighten me on what you know.


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## ronparise (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> I bought my points a few years back.  At the time I did not know anything about resale.  I took my first timeshare tour ever and bought into the idea.  While researching what we had bought I did learn of how we spent a ton of money for nothing.   I realize the error of my ways, but when I realized what I had done, it was too late to fix it.  Please don't look down on me because I was naive about timesharing the time.
> 
> However, I have learned a lot since that day.   I am looking to buy resale and work the system to bring me to Platinum as cheaply as possible.  I plan to buy something (resale of course) that I can PIC into Wyndham.  50% discount is a big discount and will stretch my points a long way.
> 
> ...



A 50% discount is significant, and can mean some real money if you rent reservations like I do.  The question is...is it worth the price you have to pay to get there

Im going to guess that you got your VIP Gold, before Wyndham raised the bar to 700000 points, Im going to guess further that you are at about 550000 and that you need another about  500000 points to go Platinum

So two 3 bedroom PIC weeks at 254000 points each along with the new retail purchase Wyndham will require will get you there

The PIC weeks will probably cost very little, but that new retail purchase will run about $12000.

Now you will have about 1,250,000 points all eligible for the 50% discount

Heres where I have to make some assumptions:...Im going to assume your typical reservation will be 154000 points (undiscounted) or 77000 if discounted.  and if all your reservations get the 50% discount, you will be able to make and rent  16 reservations in a year.   
If you just stay Gold 154000 point reservations will cost  100000 points (35% discount) and to make 16 reservations you will need 1,600,000 points.

If you stay Gold those 16 reservations will cost you $8800 in mf,  (1600x$5.50) plus $600 for guest certificates, or $9400 a year

If you go Platinum the same 16 reservations will cost you $6875 in mf 1,250 x $5.50) and another $100 for a guest cert. 

The difference  is about $2500 a year. So the way I see it is if you go platinum and it costs $12000, You will have a 5 year pay back. 

So is it worth it??..you decide


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## stevio99 (May 4, 2013)

Ron, your forgetting your own playbook 

If you credit pooled, you could do it in less time.  Although in theory your just time shifting.


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## ronparise (May 4, 2013)

stevio99 said:


> Ron, your forgetting your own playbook
> 
> If you credit pooled, you could do it in less time.  Although in theory your just time shifting.



I dont recommend what Im doing to anyone, but you are right.. There are ways to front load your income.  The Credit Pool can help.  Heres another possibility

The op will have to buy 2 three bedroom red weeks to PIC. If she can get those weeks with the current years mf paid and  the current years usage included, She can rent those weeks and put the money toward her retail Wyndham purchase

Going to Platinum makes a lot of sense for someone that wants to be in the rental business....but the rental business is not for everyone.  Heres an example of what can happen:  I made 4 reservations for the second weekend of this years Jazz Festival in New Orleans. Thats this weekend. I rented the last one Friday at 5pm.


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## cyseitz (May 4, 2013)

My current position is that I started renting out my rental here and there to friends and family.  I decided to post it on the web and began getting requests for info. My first day listed on the Internet was 2/23/13.   I get on average 1.5 requests a day.  I've gotten a total of 100 requests and 11 actual rentals. Not all full weeks. Some of these are weekenders.  To me this seems like I can make this a good resource of income.  I have already borrowed points from next years usage, as I have depleted my allotment of points for 2013.  I know without a doubt thar request will continue to come in, so why not go with it.  

I understand there are down sides to the vacation rental business, but it is the same with any business venture.  I may never get rich doing this, but it seems legit and I like doing it.  

I've always wanted a job that I could work from home or from a resort in some exotic place for that matter.  Currently I am a fourth grade teacher.  My husband wants to see how successful I am at filling these last six reservations.  I think that I can do it with no trouble. We will see.  If this works out for me, I plan to teach the next four years until my baby (we have four children) graduates from high school.  Then we want to move to central Florida where rentals will be my full time job.....dreams.....but if this works out this is what we want.


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## ronparise (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> My current position is that I started renting out my rental here and there to friends and family.  I decided to post it on the web and began getting requests for info. My first day listed on the Internet was 2/23/13.   I get on average 1.5 requests a day.  I've gotten a total of 100 requests and 11 actual rentals. Not all full weeks. Some of these are weekenders.  To me this seems like I can make this a good resource of income.  I have already borrowed points from next years usage, as I have depleted my allotment of points for 2013.  I know without a doubt thar request will continue to come in, so why not go with it.
> 
> I understand there are down sides to the vacation rental business, but it is the same with any business venture.  I may never get rich doing this, but it seems legit and I like doing it.
> 
> I've always wanted a job that I could work from home or from a resort in some exotic place for that matter.  Currently I am a fourth grade teacher.  My husband wants to see how successful I am at filling these last six reservations.  I think that I can do it with no trouble. We will see.  If this works out for me, I plan to teach the next four years until my baby (we have four children) graduates from high school.  Then we want to move to central Florida where rentals will be my full time job.....dreams.....but if this works out this is what we want.




Exactly what I did (or better stated, What Im doing)

I didnt mean to suggest that you didnt know what you are doing, but there are folks that will look at what we are trying to do  and think its an easy thing to do.....and jump in without the advanve work that you are doing now.  Its not easy ..its real risk taking and real work. I still freak out a little each month when I get my Wyndham and Worldmark maintenance fee bills and see how much it went up from last month, and at Christmas when the mf for my weeks comes due


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> Linda -
> 
> What are credit card charge backs?
> 
> I hear what you are saying and we are proceeding with caution.  Trying to count the coast and decide if this is for us.



A CC chargeback is where someone disputes a charge to their credit card company and that sucking sound is your money (electronically) being removed from your account. 60-90 days allowed either from your charge date or date of service.

One example here on TUG involving a charge back was, PERSON A agreed to rent a resort week, with a rental contract, but the credit card was in Person B's name. And it was an expensive Harborside rental (I believe) - foreign country, long distance phone calls, foreign police, resort personnel and almost $2000. Person occupanying might have been a Person C - whose C credit was onfile. Yes, that was extreme,

Another is Paypal - the fees are a real bummer. But chargebacks happen there also. Toss a dice, but PP takes 60 days to resolve stuff while you spend your time, trying to get your money.

Yes, I would rather rent to family and friends also. And to repeat clients.


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## cyseitz (May 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Exactly what I did (or better stated, What Im doing)
> 
> I didnt mean to suggest that you didnt know what you are doing, but there are folks that will look at what we are trying to do  and think its an easy thing to do.....and jump in without the advanve work that you are doing now.  Its not easy ..its real risk taking and real work. I still freak out a little each month when I get my Wyndham and Worldmark maintenance fee bills and see how much it went up from last month, and at Christmas when the mf for my weeks comes due



I didn't take it that way.  But, I am sure there is a lot for me to learn.  So, I am probably going to ask some dumb questions here and there. . 

M/Fs are quite disheartening when you consider the price tag.  Every business has overhead. Every business has risks.  I'm an entrepreneur at heart and my husband is cautious and frugal.  We will make a good team if we do decide to move forward. He has already taken upon himself the managing of the whole thing and I do the communications and legwork.

If anyone has any words of wisdom, I'd be happy to receive them.


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## timeos2 (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> Linda -
> 
> What are credit card charge backs?
> 
> I hear what you are saying and we are proceeding with caution.  Trying to count the coast and decide if this is for us.



Here is an example of inexperience. 

You are thinking of taking on an obligation to tens of thousands of dollars per year as well as hundreds of thousands of points but don't know what a charge back is? 

No offense but once you take on those fees and ownerships the obligations are not easy to undo.  The likely return on your "investment" (which even in the case of a potential rental operation is a stretch when timeshares are involved) will be small if everything foes near perfectly. As anyone who has done any renting of timeshare or any property can tell you things do NOT go perfectly. 

Finally you are placing all you eggs in the basket of Wyndham operations that can and have been changed - often to the detriment of so called "mega-renters" - at any time. 

Slow down. Do not commit to any big purchases of points until you know how it all works and that you really can handle the good and the bad. I know you already had another reply as to what a charge back is so I won't go into those.  There are many other pit falls you may be equally unaware of that could jump up and bite you if you move too fast.  

Not wishing you any bad luck or saying it couldn't be done. Just don't get over confident that you have it all figured out. Others have too and they took a hard fall. It can be an extremely costly lesson.


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

Market conditions CHANGE very rapidily. Travelling is a 'good times" occurrance unlike a necessity like bread and gas. This recession for the last 6-8 years has caused an ecomonic STRUCTUAL shift of income and assets.

My dad retired with 2 FIXED pensions and a ton of company stock, He was part of the Greatest Generation. I am an early babyboomer who got slammed  6 months short for on a single possible FIXED pension after 9 years of employment (what is $2K IRA, 401Ks didn't exist). And the term Independant contract employee is just another way of big business saving money - I did that for 3.5 years and stashed EVERY penny into real estate. 

I could rattle on about social programs for the last 25 years or other political topics ... but that is not what TUG is about. And this post would be editted.

If you are renting Wyndham vacations resorts time, you must understand WHO you are competing against. Extra Holidays. RCI. Travelocity. Craigslist. The Naive. The Stupid. Hobbiests. The bankrupt.

Right now, this is a Hobby for you. Your friends trust you NOT to rip them off. They are not looking at prices or combing the internet for a week $50 cheaper from someone else. You are getting paid with personal checks or cash from people you know. They are thanking you for a wonderful vacation experience. And promising you, that they will rent again. It is a FAD with them; in 2 years, it might be cruises or tent camping or B&B in Europe.

Keep it as a hobby - you enjoy it. But if you have $2000 monthly MFs for 4+MM points and Wyndham tweeks one of their RULES against you, you will feel like death (financial death). Take for example the old Guest Certificate fee of $29 and unlimited FREE ones for a Platimum member. Now $99 ... that would be a $70 per reservation lost of income, if you were a GOLD member doing rentals then. And I won't suggest ANY ways for future Wyndham "help".

Doing something as a business is very different. timeso2 is a voice of watching what has happened to others over many years and in many locales.

Come back in 2-3 years --- you will look at this differently. Do some credit poolling and see how much you are renting while borrowing points. 

I would just add: Don't make a lot of reservations FIGURING someone is going to rent them. Book stuff for your friends as they sit there - less likely to shaft you or spin jockey you as to what they want.


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## cyseitz (May 4, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> Slow down. Do not commit to any big purchases of points until you know how it all works and that you really can handle the good and the bad. I know you already had another reply as to what a charge back is so I won't go into those.  There are many other pit falls you may be equally unaware of that could jump up and bite you if you move too fast.
> 
> Not wishing you any bad luck or saying it couldn't be done. Just don't get over confident that you have it all figured out. Others have too and they took a hard fall. It can be an extremely costly lesson.



Thanks for the warnings. 

Yes, I am chomping at the bit a little. The thoughts of renting out enough nights to at least reimburse to my bank account what I have already put into Wyndham keep dancing in my head.  

I won't make any hasty commitments right now.


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> ... The thoughts of renting out enough nights to at least reimburse to my bank account what I have already put into Wyndham keep dancing in my head...



That GOLD purchase money is GONE - sunk costs. Best you should hope for is MORE than the MFs you are paying monthly for and 1 or 2 family vacations == if you buy more points.

Read posts by Ron on what he owns. He has a mix of fixed & floating weeks, UDI points, CWA points ... He does split F/W (or Floating) week reservations.

Read what I have: fixed weeks, ARP for Home Resort advantage with UDI points, nonWyndham lockoffs.

See the pattern: not all eggs in one basket. 

I know I sell stuff; I buy stuff; nothing stays the same - constant flux. I vacation thru exchanges (for my extended family). 

Find your niche in timesharing.


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## cyseitz (May 4, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> That GOLD purchase money is GONE - sunk costs. Best you should hope for is MORE than the MFs you are paying monthly for and 1 or 2 family vacations == if you buy more points.
> 
> Read posts by Ron on what he owns. He has a mix of fixed & floating weeks, UDI points, CWA points ... He does split F/W (or Floating) week reservations.
> 
> ...



I see what you are saying.  It will be HARD for my husband to see that money as sunk and forget about it.  

It will take me some time to obtain such a portfolio I'm sure.  If we decide to move forward, it looks like the next step is to buy two fixed weeks to PIC.  My husband is talking about doing this for a year with what we have and test the waters. See how much we rent out and how many points we need.  I'm sure it will be a slow process of deciding.  I'm sure we will hit some bumps. Hope none too hard.


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

cyseitz said:


> I see what you are saying.  It will be HARD for my husband to see that money as sunk and forget about it.
> 
> It will take me some time to obtain such a portfolio I'm sure.  If we decide to move forward, it looks like the next step is to buy two fixed weeks to PIC.  My husband is talking about doing this for a year with what we have and test the waters. See how much we rent out and how many points we need.  I'm sure it will be a slow process of deciding.  I'm sure we will hit some bumps. Hope none too hard.



I don't think you see it YET.

Ron has a format for his rentals. He brought STUFF to go into his PLAN.

I have a format. I own stuff to work (in like renting out) in my PLAN.


For example, I own rental units... That is right, non-timeshare, 52 weeks, 12 months RENTAL units. My plan was within 10 miles of my home, in 1 county in my state (1 eviction court), off of 1 interstate, in different towns, and spread into different classes of rentals (singles, duplexes, small multi-family, economic levels).

On TUG, I am a specialist in one niche of the TS world. If you have a guess, you can PM me. But I clearly have stated in multiple other posts, WHY I own timeshares.

*YOU (and your husband) need to come up with a PLAN for you all. *


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## pacodemountainside (May 4, 2013)

You should find the following post interesting. She was a super mega renter with around 16 million points.

Keep in mind  the Fairfield(now Wyndham ) points  program started in 1991. At 12/31/2012  the were  total of   about 523K Wyndham owners of which   a few   are not UDI points. However over the last three years this has just increased by around 10K making covering  past VIP benefits very expensive.  Cash outlay  in 2011 was about $12 million plus  developer had to cover all points discounts with his inventory.

So, this is an expensive albatross for Sales.

Also  other threads have  discussed  what might happen with an on going search  feature  wiping out the cancel and rebook option.  Of course,   at 60 days EH can legally steal  all of the inventory it wants.

Not an easy decision!



Subject: Kendra Lawsuit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As many of you know I am preparing a personal lawsuit again Wyndham Vacation Ownership. I had hoped to file it on 10/09/08 because I liked the idea of a ‘count down’ date. But, silly me, the count down, as it turns out – was against us, as Wyndham VO owners!!! A date I am sure we can all remember.

Instead of filing what I had ready and prepared, I decided to take an extra few days and ‘expand’ the scope of my Complaint. As of 10/09/08 it was a very personal lawsuit but since then I have decided to add a section about Wyndham policy in general as it relates to the Deteriorating Benefits of all Wyndham owners – and us ‘mega owners/renters’ in particular.

By my incorporating these issues into my lawsuit, there should be a very good likelihood that Wyndham will have to address them in my legal right to request depositions, interrogatives and my demand for them to produce documentation. They can avoid our requests and postings that we discuss among ourselves but they CANNOT ignore a court order indefinitely. And YES - I am prepared for a VERY LONG HAUL/WAR - they Will Not Out Wait Me and they can't cost me more than I've already paid (i.e. everything I owned). I have nothing more I can lose (my Faith is not at stake), all the time in the world to fight them and free legal advice!!!! I guess they could hope that I die and go home to Dad. To date my Complaint is over 30 pages long and has +150 'points/paragraphs/whatever those numbered things are called'.

To this end – would you please review my list below and edit as needed. I specifically want to know if what I have detailed below is accurate and WHEN these events occurred (and/or were rescinded). For reasons I can't understand (she says with tongue in cheek) - Wyndham stopped answering my emails weeks/months ago when I asked for clarification on these and other issues.

Overall it seems that these DETERORATING BENEFITS began shortly after Deanne Gabel became Senior Vice President of Owner Services in early/mid 2006 (and who has recently added “FairShare Plus Plan Manager” to her title). Because I still like Deanne personally (and Shearon Roach-Hurst, Jodie Davidson, Elaine Havock and Teresa Havock - and maybe Matthew Elquist to whom I've spoken twice - and maybe Scott Richards but I've never met nor had any 'dealings' with him yet - I just know that he replaced Jodie Davidson when she got promoted) and respect them as loyal Wyndham employees, I choose to believe that they are being coerced by Wynfield into being their 'Hatch People' against their personal (not professional) choice. I could (and very well might) be wrong - but that it what I choose to believe. With that said - there are true 'slim balls' out there that I won't discuss!!!


Phase One – AFTER the May 11, 2006 VOA meeting in Las Vegas, NV - no more VIP benefits for guests (no more point discounts, no more free upgrades and no more free guest certificates for guests of VIP owners). 

Phase Two – AFTER the May 31, 2007 VOA meeting in Orlando, FL - there are no longer unlimited free guest certifications (the price is now $49) and reservations have to be cancelled 15 days before check-in or all points will be lost.

Phase Three – at our preVOA (May 28) and the VOA (May 29, 2008) meeting in Orlando, FL – no more unlimited guest confirmations but ‘prorated’ as to level of membership (1 for FSP member, 5 for VIP, 10 for Gold VIP and 15 per million for Platinum) based on retail, resale and PIC points with additional guest certificates to cost $49 as of Oct. 15, 2008.

Phase Four – 10/09/08 email entitled “Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees”. During the May 28, 2009 pre VOA meeting Deanne Gabel was specifically asked “Can we expect more fee announcements this year?” and “Can you justify the increase in the guest confirmation fees when they can be requested via the Web without any customer support participation?” Her reply – “There are no increases in fees anticipated.” In the announcement it was stated that Guest Confirmations would increase from $25 to $129/$99 (contact center/website), that resale points will not be used to calculate ‘eligible points’ into the guest certificate equation, and that there will be increases in five of the other seven ‘fee based’ categories.

Comments/corrections are being solicited but I would appreciate receiving them ASAP so that I can finish ‘what needs be done’. Kendra

DETERORATING BENEFITS – Aimed Particularly at “Renters”
No longer able to rent unlimited points from Wyndham – July, 2006
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
No longer able to transfer of PIC points to other owners – Jan., 2007
No longer receive unlimited guest certificates as VIP Platinum – Oct 15, 2008
Resale points not ‘eligible’ in count of how many limited guest certificates
Increase in fee for guest certificates - $25 to $49 to $129/$99 (contact center/website)
Increase in fee for Express Window (within 60 days of check-in) of Points Rental - $5 per 1K to $10/$8 per 1 K (contact center/website)
Can’t use photos from website – Jan, 2008
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No guests without owner present – 
CHANGED BACK - when?
Cancel 15 days prior to check-in or lose all points -
Increase in fees – Oct. 15, 2008

DETERORATING BENEFITS – VIP
No longer have our personal ‘Vacation Counselor’
No longer have our own ‘Exclusive Toll-free Reservations Hotline’
No longer request specific rooms
Increase in PIC (Personal Interval Choice) fees from $25 to $49 to $89
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) -
CHANGED BACK -
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - 

DETERORATING BENEFITS – General
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
Regular use points are used before cancelled points (which can NOT be transferred to other owners, used to make an ARP [Advance Reservation Priority at ones home resort at 13 months], RARP [Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority at 11 months at other resorts] or put in the credit pool).
Increased fees in six of Wyndham’s eight “Fee Based Categories: :
Subject: Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:08:17 -0700
From: FairSharePlus@FVOA.com


Program Feature Current Fee New Fee 
Contact Center New Fee 
Web Site 

As of October 15, 2008 
Reservation Transactions $30 $59 $30 
Points Credit Pool $30 $39 Not Currently Available 
Points Rental Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Not Currently Available 
Express Window 
$5 per 1,000 Express Window 
$10 per 1,000 Express Window 
$8 per 1,000 
PIC
(Personal Interval Choice) $50 $89 Not Currently Available 
Guest Confirmations
(Fee only applies to confirmations made in excess of annual complimentary allocation based on eligible points) $25 $129 $99 
Housekeeping Credits $2.25 per credit No Change No Change 
Billing Fee
(If you receive a paper version of your monthly or annual statement) $6 $8 No Fee with PAC 



RCI
No longer make ARP exchanges into RCI
No longer ‘see’ generic deposits on RCI website – 

EXTRA HOLIDAYS
Wyndham Vacation Ownership’s ‘rental ‘arm’ – does not have to abide by same rules as owners (pay for guest certificate, cancel before 15 days of check-in, guests accept responsibility for any damage). Extra Holidays can take a full week of an owner's 'reservation' and just pay (weeks later) for one or two days and the owner has lost the rest. Wyndham is allowed to take 90% of the inventory that is still available 60 days before check-in and put it into Extra Holidays.

Kendra


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## cyseitz (May 4, 2013)

Thanks,

I have read this before... Scary!!

I read too about the ongoing search....how probable is this?


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## ronparise (May 4, 2013)

I think Linda has given you the secret of success when it comes to timeshare rentals, and that's to specialize.


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

Wyndham can benefit from that in two ways --
Extra Holidays would get discount reservations which might be a fair number of HIGH value/book with ARP until owners realize they are going to LOSE them.
Wyndham would NOT have to fork as much money over to the trust for VIP discount points benefits.

Originally, Resort Specials and VIP discounts were a Sales hook for LAST minute travel to resorts in the off season. Many of us still REMEMBER that a cancelled reservation DID NOT APPEAR back into inventory until 8AM the next day when the computer system came back up. WHO in their right mind would cancel ANYTHING they truly wanted or needed -- to HOPE it would be there at 8AM. And that they would be the one to GRAB it.

But as to what was new GREAT steals, 8AM was the time everyone signed onto Wyndham to see IF anything new showed up. Just be down in the computer room at ANY Wyndham resort and you would run into EVERY big point owner staying onsite. Or at least the cheap owners who didn't pay for in room WIFI.

So the basic answer to your question: How likely will that ongoing search actually happen?

The real question is:  *When is that feature going to happen? And how soon? *


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## vacationhopeful (May 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> I think Linda has given you the secret of success when it comes to timeshare rentals, and that's to specialize.



You remembered, Ron!


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## timeos2 (May 4, 2013)

And that comprehensive listing of changes, nearly all negative especially to VIP owners and mega-renters, needs to serve as a strong warning that owners have no say in the way Wyndham operates. You live and die by the rules they alone set up, enforce and price - all with their bottom line as the primary importance. It is the same with virtually all of the Developer controlled resorts and systems. With Wyndham it's worse if you have fallen for the VIP tale as it isn't even presented as anything guaranteed but merely a perk that they can remove when and if they wish. No recourse of any type for those that paid big for the points that granted it to them. 

The only things you can be sure are yours are those that can be resold as they alone represent the parts of the plan that were registered for sale, got full disclosure in those 400+ pages you should be familiar with and cannot be altered without an owner vote.  Depending on anything else to be there long term or to base a business, even just a small rental operation on them is a near guarantee that your plan will suffer a serious setback when those things are changed or ended.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 4, 2013)

Can i just point out....Renting Timeshares that you OWN is a lot different then any job you've ever had....

You can't just decide to stop doing it, once you purchase those points, you are making a commitment to pay those maintenance fees till you DIE...There is no quitting when you own the points, because you still have to pay those Maintenance fees, there is no 'i don't feel well enough to work right now' because the maintenance fees still come in...If rentals don't come in, you can't just say 'oh well' because you still have those maintenance bills coming in...

Buying a Timeshare to rent isn't just a job, it's a lifelong commitment


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## am1 (May 5, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Can i just point out....Renting Timeshares that you OWN is a lot different then any job you've ever had....
> 
> You can't just decide to stop doing it, once you purchase those points, you are making a commitment to pay those maintenance fees till you DIE...There is no quitting when you own the points, because you still have to pay those Maintenance fees, there is no 'i don't feel well enough to work right now' because the maintenance fees still come in...If rentals don't come in, you can't just say 'oh well' because you still have those maintenance bills coming in...
> 
> Buying a Timeshare to rent isn't just a job, it's a lifelong commitment



plus a few


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## ronparise (May 5, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Can i just point out....Renting Timeshares that you OWN is a lot different then any job you've ever had....
> 
> You can't just decide to stop doing it, once you purchase those points, you are making a commitment to pay those maintenance fees till you DIE...There is no quitting when you own the points, because you still have to pay those Maintenance fees, there is no 'i don't feel well enough to work right now' because the maintenance fees still come in...If rentals don't come in, you can't just say 'oh well' because you still have those maintenance bills coming in...
> 
> Buying a Timeshare to rent isn't just a job, it's a lifelong commitment



You can't just decide to stop doing it, 

Ride

How is that different than any job....I dont know about you but Ive never been in a position, with any job Ive had to just decide to stop doing it....The kids wanted to eat every day (and so did I) and the bills kept coming

I would think most of us here viewed our careers as, as you put it,  a lifetime commitment. and we didnt think that that was a bad thing

to the op:

Most of the advice you will get here, regarding rentals is negative,; dont do it;  its hard;  its too much work for the money;  what if this? and what if that? 

Bear in mind that most giving the advice have never even tried to do it.   Listen to Linda and listen to me...this aint rocket science...Go in with your eyes open, start small and build on your successes, You'll be fine...and if you decide its not for you, I know you can find someone to take your points and the responsibility for the maintenance fees from you. There's an ad in the tug classifieds right now where someone is wanting more Wyndham points


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## Ridewithme38 (May 5, 2013)

ronparise said:


> You can't just decide to stop doing it,
> 
> Ride
> 
> ...



I work in the homeowners insurance industry now, my company really doesn't pay out a lot of claims and for some people that kinda weighs on their conscience...I can quit my job any day and decide i went into the wrong line of work...Starting over, maybe doing private home inspections, or even go back to basics and do construction....Heck, if i wanted to, i could live of the government dole like a few people i know do(i could never do that, i wouldn't feel like a 'man') and just never work or even flip burgers and live hand to mouth...

But when you rent timeshares that you personally own for a living, there is no deciding you can't do it anymore...you can't quit and just start doing something else because those millions of points you bought just for the business will always be your debt....Even if you do that job as long as you possibly can, when you get older, when you are 90+ years old, it will become very difficult to maintain, but the bills will still be coming


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## cyseitz (May 5, 2013)

ronparise said:


> You can't just decide to stop doing i
> 
> to the op:
> 
> ...




Thank you Ron for that comforting statement


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## jjmanthei05 (May 5, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I work in the homeowners insurance industry now, my company really doesn't pay out a lot of claims and for some people that kinda weighs on their conscience...I can quit my job any day and decide i went into the wrong line of work...Starting over, maybe doing private home inspections, or even go back to basics and do construction....Heck, if i wanted to, i could live of the government dole like a few people i know do(i could never do that, i wouldn't feel like a 'man') and just never work or even flip burgers and live hand to mouth...
> 
> But when you rent timeshares that you personally own for a living, there is no deciding you can't do it anymore...you can't quit and just start doing something else because those millions of points you bought just for the business will always be your debt....Even if you do that job as long as you possibly can, when you get older, when you are 90+ years old, it will become very difficult to maintain, but the bills will still be coming



Ride,

We both know that's not true. If you decide one day this will no longer work and you want out, you aren't stuck with it for life if you have wyndham points or desirable fixed weeks. Before I got my VIP gold account resale, I had 500+ points across 4 contracts with the largest one being 189k and the smallest being 87k. I was able to get out of these contracts in less than 2 weeks without paying a dime. Since I bought them resale, I sold them for nothing, I just asked for the buyer to pay closing and transfer. So you are correct that you can't get developer prices back but you can get out from under the contracts if you want out. 

Jason


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## lprstn (May 7, 2013)

Don't pursue VIP with Wyndham.

Although I am Gold VIP, if I had it to do over again I would've purchased all my points via resale.

The problem with VIP benefits is that they are not guaranteed. I've been VIP gold for 4 years and it's changed multiple times and not in my favor either.

Save your $ and if you want to purchase just get all the resale points you want.


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## DancingWaters (May 8, 2013)

*Renting*

Is it true that an RCI owner can use the "RCI certificates and last call"  and rent them out?  I realize that their wouldn't be many choices or much time to rent them but I had a phone call from XYZ and they said I could rent those out.
Is this an option?


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## pacodemountainside (May 8, 2013)

No way.

Total scam!


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## lprstn (May 9, 2013)

I've been VIP gold for a long time and I must say, I will NEVER ever upgrade to any VIP benefits again.

Why? that's a horrible reason to shell out the extra cash because THEY ALWAYS change those benefits - heck they can even take them away and you have nothing, nothing to stop them or fight for. 

Therefore, I'd say, save the $ purchase resale the amount of points you want to use for your vacationing.


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## ronparise (May 9, 2013)

lprstn said:


> I've been VIP gold for a long time and I must say, I will NEVER ever upgrade to any VIP benefits again.
> 
> Why? that's a horrible reason to shell out the extra cash because THEY ALWAYS change those benefits - heck they can even take them away and you have nothing, nothing to stop them or fight for.
> 
> Therefore, I'd say, save the $ purchase resale the amount of points you want to use for your vacationing.



That may be good advice in nearly ever situation and for nearly every owner, but the op wants to rent (not just vacation) and wants to make some money doing it. This so  her husband can say that he is at least getting some return of the money that he has "invested" with Wyndham. 

Oftentimes the difference between profit and loss is that Platinum discount.  

The op does not intend to buy all the points he needs to become Platinum from Wyndham. He intends to get their using PIC, which will be significantly cheaper

There are a number of individuals and companies out there that will manage your points in their rental operation. Generally , Ive found that if they take your account at all, they will only pay you $4 or $5 per thousand points unless you are a Platinum VIP. For most of us $5 /1000 means we lose a little on every rental.  These companies will pay $6/1000 points if you are a Platinum VIP. For most of us I suspect thats a little more than maintenance fees

So if the op becomes a Platinum VIP I think he can make a few dollars each year even if he contracts out management of his account. Assuming a 50cents per 1000 points profit, a million points will bring a $500 profit...not much, but at least its on the right side of zero. and if we measure it against the new money (I figure about $12000) it will take to become a Platinum VIP from where he is  now; Its a better return than bank cd's


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