# Allegory of the Megarenter



## Eric B (Aug 8, 2021)

There once was a timeshare company that sought to increase its sales by developing extra special benefits for its customers.  Eventually, the timeshare company realized that it could sell even more timeshares if it allowed some of its customers to rent out their time skirting the rules they had set up for the extra special benefits - thus were born the Megarenters, a class of people who became skilled in the art of working the system.  They were symbiotic with the timeshare company and provided new customers for the sales team while making use of the excess capacity in the system at no cost for marketing to the timeshare company.

Around that same time, Old-timer bought enough timeshares there to be at the peak of the special benefits.

Over the years, the timeshare company hired some consultants and realized that they could make additional profits themselves by renting the excess capacity.  Thus was born Extra Holidays.  The timeshare company realized they needed to get rid of the Megarenters, so the timeshare company froze and audited many accounts of folks that they identified as being those types of people.  Old-timer cheered and laughed because he wasn't a Megarenter and the actions taken by the timeshare company didn't effect him negatively; heck they may well have resulted in freeing up more inventory for him to book with his special benefits.

Several years later, the timeshare company realized they hadn't done enough to rid the world of the scourge of the Megarenter, so they again updated the rules for their special benefit program.  This time the changes included enforcing an old rule that had been written out of the rule book to the benefit of hybrid owners with resale points (those nasties).  (They hadn't seen any reason not to write it out or the rule book since they were never enforcing it anyway - that would have been too hard for their meager accounting systems, but those are better now so this is a fabulous idea to improve performance.)  Old-timer cheered and laughed because he wasn't a hybrid owner and the actions taken by the timeshare company didn't effect him negatively; heck they may well have resulted in freeing up more inventory for him to book with his special benefits.

Years later, the timeshare company hired more consultants and determined that allowing continued use of the special benefits for customers that were no longer purchasing timeshares from them did not align with the purpose of those as incentives to drive sales.  The timeshare company then implemented a change that only granted the special benefits to customers that had purchased their timeshares in the last 20 years.  Old-timer cheered and laughed, then realized his purchase was 30 years ago - the changes would greatly effect him.

Old-timer moaned about the changes to the timeshare company, saying "I've followed all the rules, you can't change these them on me!  I have a vested interest in the special benefits!"  The timeshare company patiently explained that the only immutable rule was the one that says they can change the rules anytime without notice on their whims.  The timeshare company also explained that their experience over the years with making changes to the program was that the customers that weren't effected would mostly cheer and laugh at the misfortune of the folks that lost out.  The whole reason for the special benefits in the first place was to drive sales, and Old-timer wasn't buying, so there was nothing he could complain about - change is the only certain thing.  Over the years they had paid more for the benefits out of their sales and marketing budget than he had paid for his timeshare in the first place.

The End.  If you wind up being a member of a disfavored class of customers of the timeshare company, remember how you felt when it was someone else and remember the purpose of the special benefits.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 8, 2021)

It will be the GC’s that go next and that old timer who bought points at the current equivalent of less than $60/1000 will no longer be able to share bike week with buddies, who only pay him with favors.  He never rented, lol, and now, he too, has been impacted.  

We all need to be careful with what we wish for and be more considerate to the ones impacted along the line for any of us could next be part of the disfavored class.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 8, 2021)

I do think this could happen to the average VIP owner that bought with the idea given by the salespeople that the years you cannot use all of your points yourself, you can always rent prime weeks.  After all, you have 15 guest certificates (per million of VIP Platinum ownership).


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## Free2Roam (Aug 8, 2021)

When we bought in 1998 I recall asking the sales person... if this is so great for rentals, why are you trying to sell this stuff? Why not just make money as a vacation rental company? I can't recall his answer, but I'd guess it was because the rental business wouldn't provide $11k+ in upfront revenue per customer (approx. cost of our 1st contract of 154k points... supposedly from a foreclosure offered after we declined the 1st few offers.)

We didn't buy to rent... we saw value in using it for family vacations. We purchased another retail contract in 2002 and acquired a few resale contracts over the past 10 years. When I hear friends and colleagues discuss how much they spend on a week long vacation, I know we've gotten our money's worth over the years. But at today's prices, with the various options for vacationing, I wouldn't make that purchase now.


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## VacayKat (Aug 8, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I do think this could happen to the average VIP owner that bought with the idea given by the salespeople that the years you cannot use all of your points yourself, you can always rent prime weeks.  After all, you have 15 guest certificates (per million of VIP Platinum ownership).


Yes! It is the ‘those who live in glass houses should not throw stones’ approach to life. Kindness, compassion, and understanding are virtues completely lacking in today’s world. Any one can become a victim of timeshare company policys.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 8, 2021)

Free2Roam said:


> When we bought in 1998 I recall asking the sales person... if this is so great for rentals, why are you trying to sell this stuff? Why not just make money as a vacation rental company? I can't recall his answer, but I'd guess it was because the rental business wouldn't provide $11k+ in upfront revenue per customer (approx. cost of our 1st contract of 154k points... supposedly from a foreclosure offered after we declined the 1st few offers.)
> 
> We didn't buy to rent... we saw value in using it for family vacations. We purchased another retail contract in 2002 and acquired a few resale contracts over the past 10 years. When I hear friends and colleagues discuss how much they spend on a week long vacation, I know we've gotten our money's worth over the years. But at today's prices, with the various options for vacationing, I wouldn't make that purchase now.


You can buy Marriott and have higher-quality vacations overall.  Marriott is actually not as expensive to get to the highest level.  I know some would argue, but I have researched and will do that, but not for rental purposes.  We travel 20 weeks a year in retirement.  I just like the Marriott/Westin/Sheraton brand better than any other brand.  I can get inventory I want by buying where I want to go.  I would take almost any Marriott over anything Wyndham has in Orlando because I love the Marriott quality and the comfort of the beds, and the nice big bathtubs are exceptional.  After trying the jetted tubs at BC, I was underwhelmed after mopping the floor of water.  The tubs are too shallow to have jets. It's been a while since we have stayed there, but we go again in January.  We also like the quieter pool experiences at Marriott over BC.


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## jebloomquist (Aug 8, 2021)

Many aspects of the mega-renter controversy seem to be present in most discussions. One that seems to me to be most important, but only mentioned in passing, is that mega-renters book and hold reservations within 10 months for an extended period of time, and then cancel them if not rented. This deprives other owners from booking reservation in a timely fashion while they were being held, but never eventually used by the mega-renter.

The major solutions to this, in one form or another, have been to kill the mega-renter, the ownership, and the account simply because the Wyndham by-laws prohibit renting. I have no idea what the unintended consequences would be of a massive exodus of these accounts. I will leave that to others.

I am looking for a solution that calms the waters without being a Wyndham police-state.

How would this work? 1) Guest certificates that have been granted by developer purchases could be placed upon a reservation anytime. 2) Any purchased guest certificate must be placed on a reservation no more than 30 days after the reservation was made. Any reservation held more than 30 days could not be guested with a purchased guest certificate. My understanding is that many mega-renters purchases 10s and even 100s of guest certificates. If this seems too lenient on the mega-renter, reduce the guesting time to 7 days, maybe even 1 day.

It seems to me that this would be easier and gentler for Wyndham to administer than that of an accusatory police-state.


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## Manzana (Aug 8, 2021)

I think a nice change to the GC issues would be a friends and family list. this would allow for needed known guests on a list but not allow for renting to strangers.   I know this has been brought up before a little give with the take would be nice.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 8, 2021)

jebloomquist said:


> How would this work? 1) Guest certificates that have been granted by developer purchases could be placed upon a reservation anytime. 2) Any purchased guest certificate must be placed on a reservation no more than 30 days after the reservation was made. Any reservation held more than 30 days could not be guested with a purchased guest certificate. My understanding is that many mega-renters purchases 10s and even 100s of guest certificates. If this seems too lenient on the mega-renter, reduce the guesting time to 7 days, maybe even 1 day.
> 
> It seems to me that this would be easier and gentler for Wyndham to administer than that of an accusatory police-state.



The problem with this is because of the fee and the fickleness of non timeshare owning families, many owners wait to put guest certs on reservations.  You have an idea of who will be going but last minute your brother can't make the vacation but your sister in law and kids still want to go or your parents were going to join you but they have a doctor's appointments so you don't know if you are going to cancel or if they can come so you don't want to use that guest certificate before you know for sure.

I would think that allowing you to use 1-20 above your allotted guest certificates at $99 and then another 1-20 at $500 per guest certificate and no additional ones beyond that would probably do it.  

Also requiring the Credit card left for incidentals/ security deposit to be required to be the one on the reservation or guest cert would cut down on renters who live in a popular area like Wisconsin Dells or Orlando from meeting people at the resort and checking in their non family renters.


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## VacayKat (Aug 8, 2021)

jebloomquist said:


> Many aspects of the mega-renter controversy seem to be present in most discussions. One that seems to me to be most important, but only mentioned in passing, is that mega-renters book and hold reservations within 10 months for an extended period of time, and then cancel them if not rented. This deprives other owners from booking reservation in a timely fashion while they were being held, but never eventually used by the mega-renter.
> 
> The major solutions to this, in one form or another, have been to kill the mega-renter, the ownership, and the account simply because the Wyndham by-laws prohibit renting. I have no idea what the unintended consequences would be of a massive exodus of these accounts. I will leave that to others.
> 
> ...


One significant problem to the guest certificate solution being bandied about is that if you put a GC on a reservation and have to change it, you lose that GC. For my family vacation at Christmas, I think I have now lost 6 GC because family members just can't get their poop in a group. Until Wyndham recognizes that GC should be returned to the account if they aren't used for an actual vacation any changes to the GC policy will be extremely upsetting to me.

A problem with the idea that mega-renters are those who book at 10 months and cancel is that you've got folks like me who do that as well. I double booked Labor Day because I just wasn't sure where the temperature would be best or where the fires/smoke would be least. And it's Labor Day weekend so I booked a very long way out. If I have the points to hold the reservation because I might use it, I do. I release it whenever I am 100% sure I won't be using it. Anyone who has enough points probably employs this strategy for high demand times/locations. And if they have the points and don't use this strategy, they're being silly.


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## troy12n (Aug 8, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> One significant problem to the guest certificate solution being bandied about is that if you put a GC on a reservation and have to change it, you lose that GC... Until Wyndham recognizes that GC should be returned to the account if they aren't used for an actual vacation any changes to the GC policy will be extremely upsetting to me.



You know very well that if they allowed Guest names on a GC to change without a penalty then Mega Renters will simply resort to attaching a GC to a reservation, putting a bogus name on it as a "placeholder", holding onto the (dozens of) reservations and then just changing the name on the GC when it finally rents. 

Wyndham knows this, and isn't that stupid. 

Truth be known, that's probably what is happening a lot now with entire resorts being booked out for event weekends by a single mega renter or two. The opportunity cost of having dozens of prime reservations which they can then use to manipulate the market price for the event (Bike Week, Mardi Gras, Daytona 500, etc) outweighs the $99 fee they have to spend twice. 

Another thing that probably isn't openly discussed


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## paxsarah (Aug 8, 2021)

troy12n said:


> that's probably what is happening a lot now with entire resorts being booked out for event weekends by a single mega renter or two.


This is not possible, unless Wyndham isn’t enforcing the 10 unit/20% limit.


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## jebloomquist (Aug 8, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> The problem with this is because of the fee and the fickleness of non timeshare owning families, many owners wait to put guest certs on reservations. You have an idea of who will be going but last minute your brother can't make the vacation but your sister in law and kids still want to go or your parents were going to join you but they have a doctor's appointments so you don't know if you are going to cancel or if they can come so you don't want to use that guest certificate before you know for sure.
> 
> I would think that allowing you to use 1-20 above your allotted guest certificates at $99 and then another 1-20 at $500 per guest certificate and no additional ones beyond that would probably do it.
> 
> Also requiring the Credit card left for incidentals/ security deposit to be required to be the one on the reservation or guest cert would cut down on renters who live in a popular area like Wisconsin Dells or Orlando from meeting people at the resort and checking in their non family renters



I appreciate that my suggestion may not solve all reasonable issues. Compromises can be made.

My idea attempted to distinguish the guesting value between developer and resale points, and to stop the massive holding of reservations for months at a time hoping for a rental. Any owner who uses 20 guest certificates beyond what has been allocated is probably using resale points to make reservations. I suggest that a vast majority of reservations made by mega-renters use resale points. I realize that making my suggestion will disturb owners with primarily resale points who want to guest such large non-deciding families. That is a problem to somehow be solved by the family.

Don’t get me wrong. If Wyndham were to implement some of my suggestions, I would be shooting myself in the foot. I am just hoping that Wyndham uses a “not invented here” policy and will stay away from my occasional suggestion.


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## VacayKat (Aug 8, 2021)

troy12n said:


> You know very well that if they allowed Guest names on a GC to change without a penalty then Mega Renters will simply resort to attaching a GC to a reservation, putting a bogus name on it as a "placeholder", holding onto the (dozens of) reservations and then just changing the name on the GC when it finally rents.
> 
> Wyndham knows this, and isn't that stupid.
> 
> ...


Alright, let's try this a different way.

WYNDHAM has identified and is in the process of eliminating these so called megarenters. That is about to be over and done with. This is NOT about mega-renters any more because they'll be long gone before any of these suggested policy changes are even considered. So take a step back, and think about owners, owners like you, like me and like everyone else who has given their hard earned money to a greedy corporation called Wyndham through sleazy salespeople. Now that you're actually thinking about people like you, how about you consider the following question:

Do you ACTUALLY promote policy changes that screw over the regular owners trying to do the right thing by putting a GC on a reservation as soon as it is booked only to have to use additional GC every time that reservation changes because of scheduling challenges or because the reservation gets canceled entirely and they're out that GC completely? Or are you saying that regular owners should NOT put GC on reservations until they are sure that plans won't change and hold as many reservations in their name hoping that Wyndham just doesn't notice? Or perhaps you're saying that Wyndham deserves to have multiple $99 fees for a single actual usage of a guest checking into a resort?


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## troy12n (Aug 8, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> Do you ACTUALLY promote policy changes that screw over the regular owners trying to do the right thing by putting a GC on a reservation as soon as it is booked only to have to use additional GC every time that reservation changes because of scheduling challenges or because the reservation gets canceled entirely and they're out that GC completely? Or are you saying that regular owners should NOT put GC on reservations until they are sure that plans won't change and hold as many reservations in their name hoping that Wyndham just doesn't notice? Or perhaps you're saying that Wyndham deserves to have multiple $99 fees for a single actual usage of a guest checking into a resort?



I think because the change would have such a high likelihood of being abused, I would not support it... 

Would I have a problem if such a program existed where Owner Care could make an exception on a case-by-case basis? No. Because if it was being abused OC could see it and just deny the request

Just like ALL these changes, you can thank the people abusing the system for it


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## tschwa2 (Aug 8, 2021)

I think being able to put 2 names on a single guest cert would be helpful and wouldn't really help mega renters out all that much.  Sometimes it's just a case of you don't know who will arrive first or the main plan is for one friend to go but if they can't your brother called dibs.


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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2021)

Eric B said:


> There once was a timeshare company that sought to increase its sales by developing extra special benefits for its customers.  Eventually, the timeshare company realized that it could sell even more timeshares if it allowed some of its customers to rent out their time skirting the rules they had set up for the extra special benefits - thus were born the Megarenters, a class of people who became skilled in the art of working the system.  They were symbiotic with the timeshare company and provided new customers for the sales team while making use of the excess capacity in the system at no cost for marketing to the timeshare company.
> 
> Around that same time, Old-timer bought enough timeshares there to be at the peak of the special benefits.
> 
> ...


That is why its important to swing from both sides of the plate!


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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2021)

jebloomquist said:


> Many aspects of the mega-renter controversy seem to be present in most discussions. One that seems to me to be most important, but only mentioned in passing, is that mega-renters book and hold reservations within 10 months for an extended period of time, and then cancel them if not rented. This deprives other owners from booking reservation in a timely fashion while they were being held, but never eventually used by the mega-renter.
> 
> The major solutions to this, in one form or another, have been to kill the mega-renter, the ownership, and the account simply because the Wyndham by-laws prohibit renting. I have no idea what the unintended consequences would be of a massive exodus of these accounts. I will leave that to others.
> 
> ...


The canceled reservations always come back at the 15-20 day period. I have found out last minute availability for at least a one bedroom are available at 15 days.


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## Braindead (Aug 8, 2021)

paxsarah said:


> This is not possible, unless Wyndham isn’t enforcing the 10 unit/20% limit.


Most mega renters have several accounts. 5 accounts get you 50 units. Have 2 mega renters working in tandem gets you 100 units.
Point managers with access to 100 accounts like AM1 has brought up you get the whole resort


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## jebloomquist (Aug 8, 2021)

dgalati said:


> The canceled reservations always come back at the 15-20 day period. I have found out last minute availability for at least a one bedroom are available at 15 days.


I hope that there is more to the story than just this. What's to stop a mega-renter with unlimited reservation/cancellation privileges from booking and then cancelling every reservation that they can, knowing that they need not hold them, Wyndham will be tightly holding reservations for them to gobble up with a VIP discount at the 15 to 20 day mark? This sounds like a mega-renter dream plan to me.


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## Ty1on (Aug 9, 2021)

dgalati said:


> The canceled reservations always come back at the 15-20 day period. I have found out last minute availability for at least a one bedroom are available at 15 days.



I think the real reason you are seeing last minute at 15-20 days is owners cancelling while they can still get their points back.  I think while this may include megarenters, it isn't a megarenter phenomenon per se.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> I think the real reason you are seeing last minute at 15-20 days is owners cancelling while they can still get their points back.  I think while this may include megarenters, it isn't a megarenter phenomenon per se.


Its the mega renters that are bottom feeding during the 60 day discount window. Last minute rental posters openly call it out "reservation to be canceled if not rented". This takes inventory and ties it up for them to shop the rental. At the 15 day mark its given back if not rented. Owners can cancel at the 15 day mark also but its more common for the last minute rentals some owners use to turn a profit.


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## Ty1on (Aug 9, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Its the mega renters that are bottom feeding during the 60 day discount window. Last minute rental posters openly call it out "reservation to be canceled if not rented". This takes inventory and ties it up for them to shop the rental. At the 15 day mark its given back if not rented. Owners can cancel at the 15 day mark also but its more common for the last minute rentals some owners use to turn a profit.



You do this a lot.  You take a fact, "megarenters advertise that they will cancel if not rented," and project and magnify that fact as if it represented the entire population of activity, "All last minute availability is due to megarenters cancelling reservations they couldn't rent."  

EVERYONE is subject to the 15 day cancellation rule.  EVERYONE.  If you think only Megarenters are cancelling at 15 days, then I think you have an unhealthy obsession with them.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> You do this a lot.  You take a fact, "megarenters advertise that they will cancel if not rented," and project and magnify that fact as if it represented the entire population of activity, "All last minute availability is due to megarenters cancelling reservations they couldn't rent."
> 
> EVERYONE is subject to the 15 day cancellation rule.  EVERYONE.  If you think only Megarenters are cancelling at 15 days, then I think you have an unhealthy obsession with them.


 I benefited from these cheap rentals but I never said "only Megarenters". Maybe your obsessed with negative posts about mega renters or just my posts about them?


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## Ty1on (Aug 9, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I benefited from these cheap rentals but I never said "only Megarenters". Maybe your obsessed with negative posts about mega renters or just my posts about them?



"Its the mega renters that are bottom feeding during the 60 day discount window."

We can all read English pretty well, and even without the benefit of the context of your countless other posts beating this drum, by omission you are insinuating here that the megarenters and only the megarenters, are the source of 15 day availability.  I'd venture to predict that if we could see the stats, you would find that a simple majority of last minute cancellations aren't made by megarenters.


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> Alright, let's try this a different way.
> 
> WYNDHAM has identified and is in the process of eliminating these so called megarenters. That is about to be over and done with. This is NOT about mega-renters any more because they'll be long gone before any of these suggested policy changes are even considered. So take a step back, and think about owners, owners like you, like me and like everyone else who has given their hard earned money to a greedy corporation called Wyndham through sleazy salespeople. Now that you're actually thinking about people like you, how about you consider the following question:
> 
> Do you ACTUALLY promote policy changes that screw over the regular owners trying to do the right thing by putting a GC on a reservation as soon as it is booked only to have to use additional GC every time that reservation changes because of scheduling challenges or because the reservation gets canceled entirely and they're out that GC completely? Or are you saying that regular owners should NOT put GC on reservations until they are sure that plans won't change and hold as many reservations in their name hoping that Wyndham just doesn't notice? Or perhaps you're saying that Wyndham deserves to have multiple $99 fees for a single actual usage of a guest checking into a resort?




wyndham thought that they were done with megarenting when they stopped the owner to owner transfer of points, and then they thought they were done with
megarenters when they  froze a lot of accounts and   bought out the megarenters, and then changed the rules so no one could ever be a megarenter again

and now another  change will surly get rid of the megarenters.   

I wouldnt bet on it


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## VacayKat (Aug 9, 2021)

ronparise said:


> wyndham thought that they were done with megarenting when they stopped the owner to owner transfer of points, and then they thought they were done with
> megarenters when they  froze a lot of accounts and   bought out the megarenters, and then changed the rules so no one could ever be a megarenter again
> 
> and now another  change will surly get rid of the megarenters.
> ...


Oh this feels like they have those folks in their sights and are using them for target practice. I imagine this is not a once and done, but an ongoing audit of accounts. I believe that they will be coming after folks regularly and harshly and they will be making examples of folks.


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## chapjim (Aug 9, 2021)

Braindead said:


> Most mega renters have several accounts. 5 accounts get you 50 units. Have 2 mega renters working in tandem gets you 100 units.
> Point managers with access to 100 accounts like AM1 has brought up you get the whole resort



But you would need ten owners on each account to get 50 units from five accounts.  And you have to be able to rent all those units before other owners get them.  I can see booking a large percentage of a particular week but I don't see it being wiped out.   Booking and getting confirmations is far from an instantaneous process.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> Oh this feels like they have those folks in their sights and are using them for target practice. I imagine this is not a once and done, but an ongoing audit of accounts. I believe that they will be coming after folks regularly and harshly and they will be making examples of folks.


This is the play book to the tee. If I was holding millions of points and had no way to rent them my strategy would be to lower my monthly maintenance fees in a hurry.


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## troy12n (Aug 9, 2021)

ronparise said:


> wyndham thought that they were done with megarenting when they stopped the owner to owner transfer of points, and then they thought they were done with
> megarenters when they  froze a lot of accounts and   bought out the megarenters, and then changed the rules so no one could ever be a megarenter again
> 
> and now another  change will surly get rid of the megarenters.
> ...



If nothing else, it shows the lengths people will go to to cheat the system.


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## ronparise (Aug 10, 2021)

troy12n said:


> If nothing else, it shows the lengths people will go to to cheat the system.




If renting is wrong, why doesnt the club just ban renting, instead of playing their game of whack a mole?


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 10, 2021)

I’m not a VIP. I have little stake in all of this as a resale owner. The renters never particularly bothered me. I learned a lot about the system in general from them and appreciated that: for instance back when I purchased and had 2 different use years, they taught me that I could roll my points forward to never lose any (of course that is long gone now). I never saw it as cheating the system as much as knowing the system. 
I haven’t had an issue getting what I wanted, mostly, at the 10 month mark, but I wasn’t trying for the super hyped properties/times. This year’s points glut is the first time I haven’t gotten exactly what I wanted (though I got what I needed), and I am sure it isn’t because of mega renters just based of what I wanted and historic availability.
What I have watched is the erosion of VIP perks to the point that I can only imagine how much more egregious the “truth stretches” will be in sales meetings. I doubt that I would have tried to become a VIP through PICs or otherwise, and I never had interest in renting, but if I ever entertained the thought of going VIP, I would definitely not bother now. Do you guys even get a newspaper anymore? I feel for the VIPs, many of whom do not rent or engage in anything resembling mega renting, who have paid a heck of a lot of money to see diminishing value in their purchases.
Are they just going to rely on continuing to make people believe that there’s some magical VIP inventory that will hold rooms for them to book a month before they want to travel to a high demand property at a high demand time? Or that they are getting special last minute deals to DVC through last calls? Cheap cruises and airfare? I see people posting all of the time excited that they just bought for those reasons only to be deflated when they realized the reality. 
I wouldn’t gloat about what may have negative unintentional consequences to the ordinary owner: for example, when gifting reservations to family or friends becomes more of a challenge. We can already see that it has happened with just these small blackout periods. People who had to rent a small room in their name that they didn’t need to have an overlapping reservation on a trip they were attending but didn’t have in their name because they were checking in a day later and still end up with cancellations. I am sure we will see more.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

MaryBella7 said:


> I’m not a VIP. I have little stake in all of this as a resale owner. The renters never particularly bothered me. I learned a lot about the system in general from them and appreciated that: for instance back when I purchased and had 2 different use years, they taught me that I could roll my points forward to never lose any (of course that is long gone now). I never saw it as cheating the system as much as knowing the system.
> I haven’t had an issue getting what I wanted, mostly, at the 10 month mark, but I wasn’t trying for the super hyped properties/times. This year’s points glut is the first time I haven’t gotten exactly what I wanted (though I got what I needed), and I am sure it isn’t because of mega renters just based of what I wanted and historic availability.
> What I have watched is the erosion of VIP perks to the point that I can only imagine how much more egregious the “truth stretches” will be in sales meetings. I doubt that I would have tried to become a VIP through PICs or otherwise, and I never had interest in renting, but if I ever entertained the thought of going VIP, I would definitely not bother now. Do you guys even get a newspaper anymore? I feel for the VIPs, many of whom do not rent or engage in anything resembling mega renting, who have paid a heck of a lot of money to see diminishing value in their purchases.
> Are they just going to rely on continuing to make people believe that there’s some magical VIP inventory that will hold rooms for them to book a month before they want to travel to a high demand property at a high demand time? Or that they are getting special last minute deals to DVC through last calls? Cheap cruises and airfare? I see people posting all of the time excited that they just bought for those reasons only to be deflated when they realized the reality.
> I wouldn’t gloat about what may have negative unintentional consequences to the ordinary owner: for example, when gifting reservations to family or friends becomes more of a challenge. We can already see that it has happened with just these small blackout periods. People who had to rent a small room in their name that they didn’t need to have an overlapping reservation on a trip they were attending but didn’t have in their name because they were checking in a day later and still end up with cancellations. I am sure we will see more.


The rules are spelled out in the directory. Wyndham can tweak them, add to them and remove them as needed, and in some cases don't enforce them. If you play by the rules you'll be fine. If everyone played by the same rules instead of ignoring them just think how nice it would be.


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> The rules are spelled out in the directory. Wyndham can tweak them, add to them and remove them as needed, and in some cases don't enforce them. If you play by the rules you'll be fine. If everyone played by the same rules instead of ignoring them just think how nice it would be.



The rules don’t have blackout dates for guest certs. It wasn’t clearly laid out when people bought and were sold on gifting vacations to their families that they wouldn’t be able to unless they went too or sent them only to certain places. People weren’t breaking rules that Wyndham didn’t have, set up to work the way they did.
I will not celebrate people who spent a lot of money losing what they should rightfully have in an effort to punish people for doing something sales people encouraged in a system Wyndham set up.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

MaryBella7 said:


> The rules don’t have blackout dates for guest certs. It wasn’t clearly laid out when people bought and were sold on gifting vacations to their families that they wouldn’t be able to unless they went too or sent them only to certain places. People weren’t breaking rules that Wyndham didn’t have set up to work the way they did.
> I will not celebrate people who spent a lot of money losing what they should rightfully have in an effort to punish people for doing something sales people encouraged in a system Wyndham set up.


Wyndham can add, tweak, change, add and delete rules as spelled out in the directory. It's because of mega renters a change was needed. The blackout dated shouldn't affect you unless you plan to rent to someone during that timeframe. Owner personal use should come before someone elses commerce.


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> Wyndham can add, tweak, change, add and delete rules as spelled out in the directory. It's because of mega renters a change was needed. The blackout dated shouldn't affect you unless you plan to rent to someone during that timeframe. Owner personal use should come before someone elses commerce.


Other than of course the two instances I pointed out where ordinary VIP owners WERE impacted when not renting at all. They were actual instances. There will be many more like them. Sorry, I won’t be happy about that. Neither will you the day it messes up your perfectly legitimate plans.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

MaryBella7 said:


> Other than of course the two instances I pointed out where ordinary VIP owners WERE impacted when not renting at all. They were actual instances. There will be many more like them. Sorry, I won’t be happy about that. Neither will you the day it messes up your perfectly legitimate plans.


Unless the plans don't include you being there, there shouldn't be a problem. My family live in Wisconsin. I had a guest reservation for my niece and her family at Glacier Canyon over Labor Day. My sister and brother-in-law are on my account so they are going to go with them because of the restrictions. With all the mega renters' cancellations, I cancelled the one bedroom and picked up a three bedroom, at half points, and put the reservation in my brother-in-law's name so they'll all go together. It's a work around. You just have to be creative.


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> Unless the plans don't include you being there, there shouldn't be a problem. My family live in Wisconsin. I had a guest reservation for my niece and her family at Glacier Canyon over Labor Day. My sister and brother-in-law are on my account so they are going to go with them because of the restrictions. With all the mega renters' cancellations, I cancelled the one bedroom and picked up a three bedroom, at half points, and put the reservation in my brother-in-law's name so they'll all go together. It's a work around. You just have to be creative.


One of the ones I mentioned, the owner WAS there but couldn’t arrive until a day after the rest, so it wasn’t in his name. He had to book another small unit he didn’t need in his name to avoid cancellation. And they still cancelled a unit on him. Adding family members to accounts isn’t always an option or smart move.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

I only added my sister and brother-in-law because they are retired too. Sometimes they travel to where we are; other times they go to different locations. Fortunately they were on my contract or they wouldn't been able to go to Las Vegas for their anniversary.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> It's a work around. You just have to be creative.


Sounds like a page out of the mega renters play book. The work arounds and loopholes are why VIP owners are in this mess. If everyone played this work around how long do you thing it will be before Wyndham closes the loophole?


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## Mongoose (Aug 10, 2021)

I see so many more complaints about Wyndham than praise.  Is anyone actually happy with them?


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

What loophole? Sending an owner (my sister and brother-in-law) to check-in and stay in the same unit with their daughter and family is not a loophole. It's a work around. We made it work otherwise I'd have to cancel the reservation IAW the restriction policy.


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## Ty1on (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> I see so many more complaints about Wyndham than praise.  Is anyone actually happy with them?



A lot of us are, on the balance, happy with Wyndham.  I'm not saying there aren't any subpar resorts, but I haven't stayed in one.  Owner services has always been helpful with any questions or issues that have arisen, and I am purely a resale owner.  Save VIP benefits and Plus Partners/Club Pass/RCI Points, Wyndham resale contracts confer all the basic rights and privileges store-bought owners enjoy, and that isn't the case in all systems.  Wyndham doesn't reduce access of resales to the underlying interval, the home resort, or a subset of the club like some other clubs do (yet, I should say).  Wyndham doesn't charge a substantial enrollment fee for resale contracts to be used within the club.

The website has certainly had its ups and downs, but Wyndham isn't the only system that receives complaints about its interface.

As far as this recent wave of changes, you'll find that a very, very vocal minority has their collective bullhorn at max volume.  Understandably, because this is going to change how their ownership works for them.  For me, others in these threads, and I think the average owner, retail or resale, the changes are welcome.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> I see so many more complaints about Wyndham than praise.  Is anyone actually happy with them?


I'm happy. Much more now than before due to the changes that benefit owners' personal travel. Granted, I did benefit off mega renters when they'd cancel a reservation that I was able to grabbed and use. One example: every year since Clearwater opened I was able to pick up a discounted cancellation for the Christmas/New Year holidays. I'll have to wait and see how life is without these last minute mega renter cancellation. I'll continue to watch for cancellations and see how the New Wyndham works for me.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> What loophole? Sending an owner (my sister and brother-in-law) to check-in and stay in the same unit with their daughter and family is not a loophole. It's a work around. We made it work otherwise I'd have to cancel the reservation IAW the restriction policy.


I get it. "It's a work around. You just have to be creative."  What happens when a owner gets "creative" and starts showing up at resort to check in guests. This type of behavior got VIP owners into this mess. Have any other Ideas on how to work the system?


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

It not working the system. It's what you call, a work around or making it work. It's like if you were an owner, which I think you are, and send your boyfriend to Las Vegas for the weekend. If you wanted to make it work, you'd have to join him because of the owner use restrictions. It's making it work, and what you do in in Vegas is something I don't want to know.


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## VacayKat (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> I see so many more complaints about Wyndham than praise.  Is anyone actually happy with them?


I find my program fee to be upsettingly large for little to no benefit. And I pay it on my small resale contract too, so that super sucks. ( so pay a program fee and then still have to pay transaction fees, fees to bank points, housekeeping etc. It’s ridiculous - do one or the other.)


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## VacayKat (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> It not working the system. It's what you call, a work around or making it work. It's like if you were an owner, which I think you are, and send your boyfriend to Las Vegas for the weekend. If you wanted to make it work, you'd have to join him because of the owner use restrictions. It's making it work, and what you do in in Vegas is something I don't want to know.


First, I am not saying this to be the case for your instance. 
However, I think what makes folks hot under the collar is:
when one individual says another person’s workaround is illicit and then says theirs is not, it’s a lot hypocritical. Either workarounds of the rules are licit or they aren’t, it doesn’t matter on the kind or cause of the workaround.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> It not working the system. It's what you call, a work around or making it work. It's like if you were an owner, which I think you are, and send your boyfriend to Las Vegas for the weekend. If you wanted to make it work, you'd have to join him because of the owner use restrictions. It's making it work, and what you do in in Vegas is something I don't want to know.


No thanks I would just rent from a VIP and let them work the system like most do. But if this strategy works for you and your motorcycle buddies ...........


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 10, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> when one individual says another person’s workaround is illicit and then says theirs is not, it’s a lot hypocritical.


I share this thought.  

And, in particular, as it relates to 55plus, it's OK for him to rent a reservation because he's inside the 15 days and will lose points if he does not rent it.  But, yet criticizes another who is renting to cover MF's because they can't travel as much as they are accustomed and will lose points if they do not rent it.  It's also OK for him to take compensation for reservations he makes without calling it a rental.

Personally, I think what he is doing is quite OK.  I'm not the least butthurt (his words directed at me) over what he's doing, I just wish he'd understand and show just a little compassion for those that are renting in 2021 due to excess points in their accounts from having many cancelled trips in 2020 and 2021.  Like Wyndham, I wish 55plus would draw a line around what is OK and what is not OK.  To that, he'd have to acknowledge that he's a renter.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> First, I am not saying this to be the case for your instance.
> However, I think what makes folks hot under the collar is:
> when one individual says another person’s workaround is illicit and then says theirs is not, it’s a lot hypocritical. Either workarounds of the rules are licit or they aren’t, it doesn’t matter on the kind or cause of the workaround.


Its funny how he calls out mega renters but rented a reservation himself. Claimed it was out of necessity and past the 15 day give back mark. Also claimed this behavior is allowable. LOL Typical VIP Hooray for me attitude.


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## paxsarah (Aug 10, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> I find my program fee to be upsettingly large for little to no benefit. And I pay it on my small resale contract too, so that super sucks. ( so pay a program fee and then still have to pay transaction fees, fees to bank points, housekeeping etc. It’s ridiculous - do one or the other.)


I only own resale, and while I obviously pay the program fee (which I find acceptable for the RCI membership, website, phone center, etc.), the only one of these other fees I regularly pay is the points deposit fee. I may pay $19 once or twice per year if I run out of transactions, though I don't expect to this year. I've never paid for housekeeping. I probably average $50-75 in fees per year.


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## 55plus (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Its funny how he calls out mega renters but rented a reservation himself. Claimed it was out of necessity and past the 15 day give back mark. Also claimed this behavior is allowable. LOL Typical VIP Hooray for me attitude.


I never said it was allowable or it was out of necessity. I said plans changed and it was past the drop dead date. What would you do if you and, whatever his name is had a change of plans and it was past the drop dead date?


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## VacayKat (Aug 10, 2021)

paxsarah said:


> I only own resale, and while I obviously pay the program fee (which I find acceptable for the RCI membership, website, phone center, etc.), the only one of these other fees I regularly pay is the points deposit fee. I may pay $19 once or twice per year if I run out of transactions, though I don't expect to this year. I've never paid for housekeeping. I probably average $50-75 in fees per year.


I would get rid of RCI in a heartbeat if it meant lower costs, also I’d feel way better about paying for website and phone if either were better. I have an outstanding account problem that they’ve ‘been working on’ for over a year. Basically if you charge me a premium, I expect premium service. I am not getting that.


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## r4rab (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> What loophole? Sending an owner (my sister and brother-in-law) to check-in and stay in the same unit with their daughter and family is not a loophole. It's a work around. We made it work otherwise I'd have to cancel the reservation IAW the restriction policy.


I don't even think what you did is a work-around. It's using the ownership as intended. An owner on the account is staying in the unit with other family.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

55plus said:


> I never said it was allowable or it was out of necessity. I said plans changed and it was past the drop dead date. What would you do if you and, whatever his name is had a change of plans and it was past the drop dead date?


Like I said I never rented any of the points I owned but if you and your buddies like working a loophole no need to justify it to anyone else.


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## Ty1on (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Like I said I never rented any of the points I owned but if you and your buddies like working a loophole no need to justify it to anyone else.



Wyndham has NEVER stated having any issue with owners that rent out a stay they legitimately intended for personal use, but plans changed and it was too late to back out.  You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Wyndham has NEVER stated having any issue with owners that rent out a stay they legitimately intended for personal use, but plans changed and it was too late to back out.  You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.


Pointing out how hypocritical some owners are unless they rent. Its is fair game if the same owner is calling out the mega Renters. If a owner rents millions of points or just 1 or 2 a year rentals take away availability for owners to book for personal use. Come on you are either against renting or are for it. You think some owner couldn't of booked that reservation inside the 15 day window?  I personally think all owners are better off without rentals. Now GC's for friends and family is a different thing as long as no one is compensated (cigars and bottles of booze included).


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Pointing out how hypocritical some owners are unless they rent. Its is fair game if the same owner is calling out the mega Renters. If a owner rents millions of points or just 1 or 2 a year rentals take away availability for owners to book for personal use. Come on you are either against renting or are for it. You think some owner couldn't of booked that reservation inside the 15 day window?  I personally think all owners are better off without rentals. Now GC's for friends and family is a different thing as long as no one is compensated (cigars and bottles of booze included).



I don't buy into the premise that it's a simple binary decision.  For example, for the first time ever, I rented during the pandemic - because I had several hundred thousand points that would have expired - and we have no interest in using RCI properties at present (nor learning how to use them).  These were points that were already previously moved into the 2021 use year - so they could not be moved again.  I used a PM to do so - that has a system that doesn't violate terms of use (requirement to share account login credentials) because I wasn't trying to make serious money on those rentals - I was simply trying to recover MFs (~$7/1000).  There are a _lot _of current Wyndham VIP owners that fell into this same bucket during the pandemic.  The pandemic is likely a once in a lifetime occurrence - which demands unusual solutions to resolve the unusual challenges that arise.  I've used six of my ten GCs in 2021 for rentals as a result - and that consumed all of the leftover points that I knew we wouldn't be able to use for the remainder of the current use year - or so I thought - because now we're having second thoughts about current reservations in the fall timeframe due to the Delta variant, but I digress.  Under normal non-pandemic circumstances - we use the vast majority of our points for personal use - and we usually use a few complimentary GCs annually to send our adult children on their own individual vacations (they are not listed on our account and currently don't want to be listed on our account).

I'm not against occasional rentals using complimentary GCs when it makes sense.  Nor is Wyndham.  The proof is that Wyndham isn't limiting rentals in entirety.  We all know that - which is why Wyndham is taking a multi-pronged approach here.  They are placing limits on rentals during prime season at high demand resorts - while also targeting MRs (not sure on the PMs - since they largely use other owner points) via commercial use violations (the cease and desist letters).  The majority of resorts in the system still have no rental restrictions in place and therefore rentals are still permissible and not discouraged.  Even the majority of TUG Wyndham forum owners aren't being targeted by the cease and desist letters - which means the majority of TUG Wyndham owners that rent points occasionally will be fine.  Of course - we don't know what else Wyndham has planned - this could just be round one of a multi-phase effort.  Only time will tell.  

IMHO it all comes back to intent.  Is your intent to use your ownership primarily for personal use?  Or is your intent to run a commercial enterprise?  The usage patterns are extremely different and relatively easy for Wyndham to identify as a result.  We don't need to attempt to define it here and Wyndham is under _no _obligation to disclose the boundaries in scope for a use case that clearly violates terms of use in the first place.


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I don't buy into the premise that it's a simple binary decision.  For example, for the first time ever, I rented during the pandemic - because I had several hundred thousand points that would have expired - and we have no interest in using RCI properties at present (nor learning how to use them).  These were points that were already previously moved into the 2021 use year - so they could not be moved again.  I used a PM to do so - that has a system that doesn't violate terms of use (requirement to share account login credentials) because I wasn't trying to make serious money on those rentals - I was simply trying to recover MFs (~$7/1000).  There are a _lot _of current Wyndham VIP owners that fell into this same bucket during the pandemic.  The pandemic is likely a once in a lifetime occurrence - which demands unusual solutions to resolve the unusual challenges that arise.  I've used six of my ten GCs in 2021 for rentals as a result - and that consumed all of the leftover points that I knew we wouldn't be able to use for the remainder of the current use year - or so I thought - because now we're having second thoughts about current reservations in the fall timeframe due to the Delta variant, but I digress.  Under normal non-pandemic circumstances - we use the vast majority of our points for personal use - and we usually use a few complimentary GCs annually to send our adult children on their own individual vacations (they are not listed on our account and currently don't want to be listed on our account).
> 
> I'm not against occasional rentals using complimentary GCs when it makes sense.  Nor is Wyndham.  The proof is that Wyndham isn't limiting rentals in entirety.  We all know that - which is why Wyndham is taking a multi-pronged approach here.  They are placing limits on rentals during prime season at high demand resorts - while also targeting MRs (not sure on the PMs - since they largely use other owner points) via commercial use violations (the cease and desist letters).  The majority of resorts in the system still have no rental restrictions in place and therefore rentals are still permissible and not discouraged.  Even the majority of TUG Wyndham forum owners aren't being targeted by the cease and desist letters - which means the majority of TUG Wyndham owners that rent points occasionally will be fine.  Of course - we don't know what else Wyndham has planned - this could just be round one of a multi-phase effort.  Only time will tell.
> 
> IMHO it all comes back to intent.  Is your intent to use your ownership primarily for personal use?  Or is your intent to run a commercial enterprise?  The usage patterns are extremely different and relatively easy for Wyndham to identify as a result.  We don't need to attempt to define it here and Wyndham is under _no _obligation to disclose the boundaries in scope for a use case that clearly violates terms of use in the first place.


I agree and have no problem with rentals as I have benefited from renting from VIP's. It just seems odd that someone would complain about mega-renters and want availability for owners but when it benefited him to rent its not taking availability from other owners. Very hypocritical but so are a lot of VIP owners as long as the loophole fits their need.


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## bnoble (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> I see so many more complaints about Wyndham than praise.  Is anyone actually happy with them?


It is the nature of the Internet (and people generally) for a small but vocal group to complain. Regularly. 

Wyndham is a large system so that small group is big enough to be noticed.

I’m spending this week and next in an oceanfront unit on Kauai and having a grand time. I’m happy to be an owner on the system and have had—and will continue to have—many great vacations.


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## ilya (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I don't buy into the premise that it's a simple binary decision.  For example, for the first time ever, I rented during the pandemic - because I had several hundred thousand points that would have expired - and we have no interest in using RCI properties at present (nor learning how to use them).  These were points that were already previously moved into the 2021 use year - so they could not be moved again.  I used a PM to do so - that has a system that doesn't violate terms of use (requirement to share account login credentials) because I wasn't trying to make serious money on those rentals - I was simply trying to recover MFs (~$7/1000).  There are a _lot _of current Wyndham VIP owners that fell into this same bucket during the pandemic.  The pandemic is likely a once in a lifetime occurrence - which demands unusual solutions to resolve the unusual challenges that arise.  I've used six of my ten GCs in 2021 for rentals as a result - and that consumed all of the leftover points that I knew we wouldn't be able to use for the remainder of the current use year - or so I thought - because now we're having second thoughts about current reservations in the fall timeframe due to the Delta variant, but I digress.  Under normal non-pandemic circumstances - we use the vast majority of our points for personal use - and we usually use a few complimentary GCs annually to send our adult children on their own individual vacations (they are not listed on our account and currently don't want to be listed on our account).
> 
> I'm not against occasional rentals using complimentary GCs when it makes sense.  Nor is Wyndham.  The proof is that Wyndham isn't limiting rentals in entirety.  We all know that - which is why Wyndham is taking a multi-pronged approach here.  They are placing limits on rentals during prime season at high demand resorts - while also targeting MRs (not sure on the PMs - since they largely use other owner points) via commercial use violations (the cease and desist letters).  The majority of resorts in the system still have no rental restrictions in place and therefore rentals are still permissible and not discouraged.  Even the majority of TUG Wyndham forum owners aren't being targeted by the cease and desist letters - which means the majority of TUG Wyndham owners that rent points occasionally will be fine.  Of course - we don't know what else Wyndham has planned - this could just be round one of a multi-phase effort.  Only time will tell.
> 
> IMHO it all comes back to intent.  Is your intent to use your ownership primarily for personal use?  Or is your intent to run a commercial enterprise?  The usage patterns are extremely different and relatively easy for Wyndham to identify as a result.  We don't need to attempt to define it here and Wyndham is under _no _obligation to disclose the boundaries in scope for a use case that clearly violates terms of use in the first place.




What is going to happen to all those Points Managers? Isn't that a commercial business? 

What happens to people who still have points in for this year and have a hybrid account? Do they still get to deposit forward?


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I agree and have no problem with rentals as I have benefited from renting from VIP's. It just seems odd that someone would complain about mega-renters and want availability for owners but when it benefited him to rent its not taking availability from other owners. Very hypocritical but so are a lot of VIP owners as long as the loophole fits their need.



Renting occasionally due to unforeseen circumstances - as was reported by at least some of the use cases you're referring to - like renting a reservation within 15 days that could not be used by the owner(s) at the last minute - or due to a once in a lifetime pandemic - that's not hypocrisy.  Hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.  So if a VIP owner that rents occasionally and does not have any intent to run a commercial business for profit like MRs - which are two very different use cases - says that they are against MRs - that doesn't equate to hypocrisy.  They are far from the same thing.  Now, if a MR was to complain about other MRs regarding negatively impacting availability for owners - that would be hypocrisy.  If one VIP owner that rents occasionally complains about other VIP owners renting occasionally as having a negative impact on owner availability - that would be hypocrisy.  Your example here is clearly apples and oranges, and you are being disingenous in resorting to either conflating two different points together and/or boiling it down to a binary choice - which is a pattern of behavior many here on TUG have called you out on, including myself, on more than one occasion over time.  While I can appreciate the idea that you want to boil everything down to black or white - I don't accept that premise - I soundly reject it.


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## ilya (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I agree and have no problem with rentals as I have benefited from renting from VIP's. It just seems odd that someone would complain about mega-renters and want availability for owners but when it benefited him to rent its not taking availability from other owners. Very hypocritical but so are a lot of VIP owners as long as the loophole fits their need.



I agree with you... I have seen  a few people here from long ago that have rented  to gain a profit and now claiming its not right.. Makes you wonder.....


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

ilya said:


> What is going to happen to all those Points Managers? Isn't that a commercial business?



PMs definitely run businesses - but AFAIK they largely use other owner's points to do so.  The smart PMs spread out their reservations across a wide swath of owners so it would seemingly be more difficult to eliminate this practice - as it's really the _owners _and not the PMs that are the source of the problem.



> What happens to people who still have points in for this year and have a hybrid account? Do they still get to deposit forward?



PDFs - per the announcement - for both developer and resale - will be extended through calendar year end for impacted owners.


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## Eric B (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> PMs definitely run businesses - but AFAIK they largely use other owner's points to do so.  The smart PMs spread out their reservations across a wide swath of owners so it would seemingly be more difficult to eliminate this practice - as it's really the _owners _and not the PMs that are the source of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> PDFs - per the announcement - for both developer and resale - will be extended through calendar year end for impacted owners.


 
I thought the PDF extension was just for the resale points.


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## VacayKat (Aug 10, 2021)

Eric B said:


> I thought the PDF extension was just for the resale points.


Most of the VIP points will already have that extension. However, yes, chances are it will  apply to them as well, but far less of an issue because folks already knew when they had to deposit by at their VIP level. Bronze and silver will be most affected.
As a VIPF I had until June 2022 to deposit all my points. As of August XX, I will have to deposit resale by Sept 30 or lose them. BEST thing ever is if I deposit all my points (resale and developer) at the same time I’d still have to pay two deposit fees. [answered at the owner session last week]


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

ilya said:


> I agree with you... I have seen  a few people here from long ago that have rented  to gain a profit and now claiming its not right.. Makes you wonder.....


So hypocritical. They name streets after them One Way Only!


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Renting occasionally due to unforeseen circumstances - as was reported by at least some of the use cases you're referring to - like renting a reservation within 15 days that could not be used by the owner(s) at the last minute - or due to a once in a lifetime pandemic - that's not hypocrisy.  Hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.  So if a VIP owner that rents occasionally and does not have any intent to run a commercial business for profit - which are two very different use cases - says that they are against MRs - that doesn't equate to hypocrisy.  They are far from the same thing.  Now, if a MR was to complain about other MRs regarding negatively impacting availability for owners - that would be hypocrisy.  If one VIP owner that rents occasionally complains about other VIP owners renting occasionally as having a negative impact on owner availability - that would be hypocrisy.  Your example here is clearly apples and oranges, and you are being disingenous in resorting to either conflating two different points together and/or boiling it down to a binary choice - which is a pattern of behavior many here on TUG have called you out on, including myself, on more than one occasion over time.  While I can appreciate the idea that you want to boil everything down to black or white - I don't accept that premise - I soundly reject it.


Well lets all just pretend the mega renters will go away. The black out dates were for creating availability for owners but many VIP owners cried it was unfair and would ruin family vacations. The same VIP owners are renting using the excuse they have to many points to use because of covid. Why not just roll them over into RCI and have 3 years to use them. The problem is VIP owners always have a way to work the system or be creative and work loopholes. JMTC,


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Why not just roll them over into RCI and have 3 years to use them.


Not sure how others feel, but I don’t own Wyndham so that I can just roll them over to RCI.


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## bogey21 (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IMHO it all comes back to intent.  Is your intent to use your ownership primarily for personal use?  Or is your intent to run a commercial enterprise?



I think these few words say it all...

George


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

Cyrus24 said:


> Not sure how others feel, but I don’t own Wyndham so that I can just roll them over to RCI.


RCI is a good use of points. I have made numerous transactions using RCI at up to 1/2 the points needed for booking a Wyndham resort direct. I would dump all Wyndham points into RCI before I would let go of my Wyndham deeds if I could not use them. It was a better deal then paying maintenance fees on the Wyndham points.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Well lets all just pretend the mega renters will go away. The black out dates were for creating availability for owners but many VIP owners cried it was unfair and would ruin family vacations. The same VIP owners are renting using the excuse they have to many points to use because of covid. Why not just roll them over into RCI and have 3 years to use them. The problem is VIP owners always have a way to work the system or be creative and work loopholes. JMTC,



I hear you. I need to think more about how to improve the entire GC process with respect to the F&F program suggestion. I may start another thread specifically on F&F and share what I’ve suggested in the past and see if we can collectively improve the concept to become valuable to the VIP ownership base while helping to eliminate the inherent challenges with the current GC program. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

Cyrus24 said:


> Not sure how others feel, but I don’t own Wyndham so that I can just roll them over to RCI.



I want to learn more about using RCI in the future. I’ve got 143k points in RCI that automatically rolled over effective on 9/30/2020 as part of a retroactive account realignment somehow. So I’ve already got some points I need to burn. We just haven’t had any need or desire to invest the time to learn the RCI system just yet. It’s on our to-do list still. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I want to learn more about using RCI in the future. I’ve got 143k points in RCI that automatically rolled over effective on 9/30/2020 as part of a retroactive account realignment somehow. So I’ve already got some points I need to burn. We just haven’t had any need or desire to invest the time to learn the RCI system just yet. It’s on our to-do list still.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats a 2 week vacation at a 1 bedroom at the Grand Desert,
 Trump Tower or The Flamingo  Hilton in Vegas. You do have a exchange fee and be careful with Hilton they like to charge a $20 a day resort fee. Grand Desert your best deal at 77k for a 1 bedroom in March.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 10, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Thats a 2 week vacation at a 1 bedroom at the Grand Desert,
> Trump Tower or The Flamingo  Hilton in Vegas. You do have a exchange fee and be careful with Hilton they like to charge a $20 a day resort fee. Grand Desert your best deal at 77k for a 1 bedroom in March.


There are definitely some good values in RCI.  That said, I already have an RCI points account and an RCI Weeks (non Wyndham) account.  I've had a hard time using all those points in 2020/2021.  Fortunately, I found a buyer for all the regular RCI Points I had accumulated and a buyer for all the RCI points I had in the Wyndham RCI account.  I'll be damn glad when it gets to where I can travel, freely, again!!!


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## troy12n (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I want to learn more about using RCI in the future. I’ve got 143k points in RCI that automatically rolled over effective on 9/30/2020 as part of a retroactive account realignment somehow. So I’ve already got some points I need to burn. We just haven’t had any need or desire to invest the time to learn the RCI system just yet. It’s on our to-do list still.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's very similar to the Wyndham system, just you have to pay a ~$300 exchange fee per booking, so if you can use a 2 week stay somewhere, it's best use of the money to book longer stays. As someone else said, you can book units for much cheaper, you can find identical Wyndham rooms for about half the points cost. But you pay the exchange fee, so it's a tradeoff... also some of the properties, since they belong to all different types of timeshare systems, quality is all over the place


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## Mongoose (Aug 10, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I want to learn more about using RCI in the future. I’ve got 143k points in RCI that automatically rolled over effective on 9/30/2020 as part of a retroactive account realignment somehow. So I’ve already got some points I need to burn. We just haven’t had any need or desire to invest the time to learn the RCI system just yet. It’s on our to-do list still.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are unlikely to get anything exceptional by just searching.  Those are all the leftovers.  You want to pick your destination 12-18 months out and select an ongoing search.  Pick 10-12 high end resorts at your destination.  Even if you don't know where or when want to go, setup your ongoing search with a very high end resort for New Years or Christmas in a high demand destination location like Aspen or Orlando.  Something with little chance of it actually coming through.  This will "hold" your place in line until you have your desired location and date.  I followed this technique and just got a 2 BR Hilton in Hawaii in key season.


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## VacayKat (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> You are unlikely to get anything exceptional by just searching.  Those are all the leftovers.  You want to pick your destination 12-18 months out and select an ongoing search.  Pick 10-12 high end resorts at your destination.  Even if you don't know where or when want to go, setup your ongoing search with a very high end resort for New Years or Christmas in a high demand destination location like Aspen or Orlando.  Something with little chance of it actually coming through.  This will "hold" your place in line until you have your desired location and date.  I followed this technique and just got a 2 BR Hilton in Hawaii in key season.


How about you run a workshop for some of us? I’ve had a maui search forever and getting zilch. I finally just cancelled it.


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## Mongoose (Aug 10, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> How about you run a workshop for some of us? I’ve had a maui search forever and getting zilch. I finally just cancelled it.


Never cancel.  You lose your spot in line.  Just extend the day out with your long shot request local.  Maybe I will


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> You are unlikely to get anything exceptional by just searching. Those are all the leftovers. You want to pick your destination 12-18 months out and select an ongoing search. Pick 10-12 high end resorts at your destination. Even if you don't know where or when want to go, setup your ongoing search with a very high end resort for New Years or Christmas in a high demand destination location like Aspen or Orlando. Something with little chance of it actually coming through. This will "hold" your place in line until you have your desired location and date. I followed this technique and just got a 2 BR Hilton in Hawaii in key season.



Thanks to you and everyone else on the RCI advice. I gotta go in and set up a couple ongoing searches as you just pegged why I haven’t used RCI much - whenever I perform availability searches I don’t find anything we would be very interested in paying for given the RCI fee structure. Sounds like ongoing searches 12+ months out is the way to go. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## troy12n (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks to you and everyone else on the RCI advice. I gotta go in and set up a couple ongoing searches as you just pegged why I haven’t used RCI much - whenever I perform availability searches I don’t find anything we would be very interested in paying for given the RCI fee structure. Sounds like ongoing searches 12+ months out is the way to go.



That's honestly the reason my family doesn't use RCI much. Because we simply do not have the flexibility to plan that far out because of work schedules and other commitments. Because if you happen to hit the lottery and get a great location, you are going to be at the mercy of whatever arbitrary week becomes available and take it or leave it. Maybe when we are retired and have infinite flexibility

But it's also good for if you are looking to get into places with a lot of inventory like Orlando or Vegas, you can reliably do that


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## MikeandLisaR (Aug 11, 2021)

What is a point manager?


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## dgalati (Aug 11, 2021)

troy12n said:


> It's very similar to the Wyndham system, just you have to pay a ~$300 exchange fee per booking, so if you can use a 2 week stay somewhere, it's best use of the money to book longer stays. As someone else said, you can book units for much cheaper, you can find identical Wyndham rooms for about half the points cost. But you pay the exchange fee, so it's a tradeoff... also some of the properties, since they belong to all different types of timeshare systems, quality is all over the place


Last time I booked a Wyndham RCI points vacation the cost was $239. I just checked and the cost is still $239. The $239 was a bargain for the way I used RCI. I would dump points from contracts I was selling to not have to pay the monthly maintenance fees. 154,000 points would get me 2 weeks (77,000 points per week) at Wyndham Grand Desert for a total cost of $478($239x2) or about 1/2 the cost of paying maintenance fees if I held the contract.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 11, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I would dump points from contracts I was selling to not have to pay the monthly maintenance fees.


Hasn't Wyndham stopped that?


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## dgalati (Aug 11, 2021)

Cyrus24 said:


> Hasn't Wyndham stopped that?


Yes the negative balance put a end to it. Not sure how Certified exit works and if current use year points could be used before giving back.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> How about you run a workshop for some of us? I’ve had a maui search forever and getting zilch. I finally just cancelled it.


You are not going to get Maui via ongoing search, unless you want something at Kahana Falls, or it comes through a month out.  All of the Soleil-managed properties are in points.  There aren't many Maui resorts available in weeks, and most of those, you will not want.  

You own Shell, don't you?  You can get Ka'anapali Beach Club on Maui through Shell's RCI portal.  There is inventory sitting online for next year.  As far as I know, Shell is the only way to get Maui inventory, and I would guess it was an agreement between RCI and Shell to move from II.  But the fees and points make it very high to stay there.  It's 4,000 Shell points for a one bedroom X .27 per point + exchange fee + the fees Diamond charges for activity fee, which is just a way to eek money out of exchangers.  I still think it's a bargain, since RCI has so little inventory on Maui.  I would do two weeks to make it worth the cost of getting there.


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## VacayKat (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You are not going to get Maui via ongoing search, unless you want something at Kahana Falls, or it comes through a month out.  All of the Soleil-managed properties are in points.  There aren't many Maui resorts available in weeks, and most of those, you will not want.
> 
> You own Shell, don't you?  You can get Ka'anapali Beach Club on Maui through Shell's RCI portal.  There is inventory sitting online for next year.  As far as I know, Shell is the only way to get Maui inventory, and I would guess it was an agreement between RCI and Shell to move from II.  But the fees and points make it very high to stay there.  It's 4,000 Shell points for a one bedroom X .27 per point + exchange fee + the fees Diamond charges for activity fee, which is just a way to eek money out of exchangers.  I still think it's a bargain, since RCI has so little inventory on Maui.  I would do two weeks to make it worth the cost of getting there.


Yeah - sort of what I thought. But would still like to figure out the best way to use RCI for when I have to dump points there to save them. I have some expiring next May and am thinking it’s a wash (it’s like ~7000 rci points) and I’ll just let them expire given I can’t vacation enough as it is to use up all the roll over points.
We are going back to Maui one more time and staying at Westin Nanea, which I would totally buy if we liked Maui that much. I love the other islands more so giving up is easy to do.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You are not going to get Maui via ongoing search, unless you want something at Kahana Falls, or it comes through a month out.  All of the Soleil-managed properties are in points.  There aren't many Maui resorts available in weeks, and most of those, you will not want.



Perhaps I'm not understanding the RCI account integration that our Wyndham accounts have - but isn't the matching account an RCI points account - not a weeks account?  I have a separate RCI weeks account for my two non-Wyndham timeshares for example.  I would therefore assume the RCI ongoing search is for points not for weeks - or can you choose?  I apologize in advance for my lack of RCI experience here.


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## Ty1on (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding the RCI account integration that our Wyndham accounts have - but isn't the matching account an RCI points account - not a weeks account?  I have a separate RCI weeks account for my two non-Wyndham timeshares for example.  I would therefore assume the RCI ongoing search is for points not for weeks - or can you choose?  I apologize in advance for my lack of RCI experience here.



Every Club Wyndham membership is linked to an RCI Weeks account.  Members in Plus Partners, which are all developer purchased members except those who opted out of Plus Partners, are also linked to an RCI Points account.


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## snickers104 (Aug 11, 2021)

I have been a member of TUG for sometime now.. (joined in 2013, left for awhile now back) and after reading here for awhile...what has happened??? This forum used to be a place where owners supported owners and helped each other out...now all I see is arguing and bickering. I just purchased a CWA contract through ebay..resale just like I owned before and knowing the limitations of it. Hopefully I can get some constructive help if and when I need it to use it to its fullest ability. 

Ok....rant over.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding the RCI account integration that our Wyndham accounts have - but isn't the matching account an RCI points account - not a weeks account?  I have a separate RCI weeks account for my two non-Wyndham timeshares for example.  I would therefore assume the RCI ongoing search is for points not for weeks - or can you choose?  I apologize in advance for my lack of RCI experience here.


RCI Points will not match to ongoing searches for points inventory.  You will only match to weeks.  That is how it has always been.  If resorts are in points only, you won't get matches, you have to go online to get them.  I have a platinum account and can see inventory for Maui in Wyndham points through the RCI Portal at 10 months out.  It's a great benefit, and you have to be online at midnight Eastern Time to get that inventory.  

I was able to book Hono Koa for 2/15-2/20 in points at exactly 10 months out, which will match up to our stay at Hono Koa for three weeks after those initial five nights via points.  Got it right at midnight.  Not the fanciest of resorts, but it is our favorite on the island.  Our units are the best in the resort and we are very blessed to have 3 weeks to stay every year.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

snickers104 said:


> I have been a member of TUG for sometime now.. (joined in 2013, left for awhile now back) and after reading here for awhile...what has happened??? This forum used to be a place where owners supported owners and helped each other out...now all I see is arguing and bickering. I just purchased a CWA contract through ebay..resale just like I owned before and knowing the limitations of it. Hopefully I can get some constructive help if and when I need it to use it to its fullest ability.
> 
> Ok....rant over.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


Oh, I know what you mean.  What happened to our nice TUG.  Read some of the Covid discussions and you would think you were on a different site.  So many attacks.  I never ignored anyone before, and now I have a list of ignored members.  This is not the TUG of before.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Oh, I know what you mean.  What happened to our nice TUG.  Read some of the Covid discussions and you would think you were on a different site.  So many attacks.  I never ignored anyone before, and now I have a list of ignored members.  This is not the TUG of before.



I think this is partially reflective of the divisive culture here in America at least to some extent.  Lots of tribalism in America today.  So there's some tribalism here on TUG as a result.  We are generally a more combative culture at present - so I'm not surprised to see what we're seeing here on TUG as a reflection of larger cultural influences.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> We are generally a more combative culture at present


The extreme combativeness may just now have reached TUG.  But, the Culture in America has been getting increasingly Combative since about 2007 with changes in Congress and with the creation of the Social Media Platforms.


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## Ty1on (Aug 11, 2021)

IIRC there were knock down drag out threads when they made cancel-rebook more difficult to execute and when they froze the accounts over magic points.

This points discount and upgrades on resale points has been a contentious issue, with strong feelings on both sides.  It doesn't help that there are a couple users pouring gas on the flames by the gallon.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

MikeandLisaR said:


> What is a point manager?


This is a person that rents your points for you and you get a cut, they get a cut.  It worked for a lot of people in the past.  Our daughter was kind of our point manager, but she is also an owner.  Most point managers are not family members, they are just in the business to make money off of what you own.  

I have been contacted by people through Redweek who want to rent my Sheraton weeks to their clients and give me my maintenance fees only.  Nope.  I don't need you to do that for me, I can rent myself.  If I don't rent my week, I can deposit it at the end of the year.  I don't need that kind of help.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> IIRC there were knock down drag out threads when they made cancel-rebook more difficult to execute and when they froze the accounts over magic points.
> 
> This points discount and upgrades on resale points has been a contentious issue, with strong feelings on both sides.  It doesn't help that there are a couple users pouring gas on the flames by the gallon.


I totally agree.


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## snickers104 (Aug 11, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> IIRC there were knock down drag out threads when they made cancel-rebook more difficult to execute and when they froze the accounts over magic points.
> 
> This points discount and upgrades on resale points has been a contentious issue, with strong feelings on both sides. It doesn't help that there are a couple users pouring gas on the flames by the gallon.


It was bad....but IMHO not as bad as it is now. People are attacking people much worse now than back then. This is ridiculous. 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

snickers104 said:


> It was bad....but IMHO not as bad as it is now. People are attacking people much worse now than back then. This is ridiculous.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


I so agree with you, and the shaming of those who used the system as it was sold to us has been hard to take.  I could see some walking away from TUG after all of this ends.  I see a lot of people who used to post in the list of users online, and they just watch the train wreck that is TUG and don't post anything anymore.  

We should blame Wyndham for the changes, not one another.  But some are thinking this is glorious and Wyndham will have inventory for anything they want, with these renters out of the way.


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## snickers104 (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I so agree with you, and the shaming of those who used the system as it was sold to us has been hard to take. I could see some walking away from TUG after all of this ends. I see a lot of people who used to post in the list of users online, and they just watch the train wreck that is TUG and don't post anything anymore.
> 
> We should blame Wyndham for the changes, not one another. But some are thinking this is glorious and Wyndham will have inventory for anything they want, with these renters out of the way.


I empathize with the people that bought under the impression they could do what has been done in the past and now it has all changed. But going forward we ALL have to work with the system as it is. I doubt availability will increase in short term reservations...just like it has always been...if you don't plan ahead well in advance it just won't be there.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We should blame Wyndham for the changes, not one another. But some are thinking this is glorious and Wyndham will have inventory for anything they want, with these renters out of the way.


Agree 100%.  Wyndham 'sold' the account usage ideas to MR's and are now taking it away.  People are being hurt and yet, some celebrate.  I find it hard to celebrate while some suffer.  I blame Wyndham for allowing it all to happen and the way they are dealing with it at this point in time.  And, I really object to the meanness being directed at the MR's.  I'm not an MR and I'm not being an apologist when it comes to  how one uses their points.  I merely don't like seeing groups of people being attacked.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 11, 2021)

Personally I think there is nothing wrong with playing within the system for personal benefit be it just covering MF's to $50,000+ but believe in the it was a good ride while it lasted and rules changes.  Wyndham lets you cancel within 14 days and more of the rental season will be past by the time the new system comes up, but I do think a full 30-60 day notice would have been nice.  I hope no one on either side thinks I am attacking them with my speculations.  I only own resale and not enough Wyndham to be personally effected.


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## Mongoose (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> RCI Points will not match to ongoing searches for points inventory.  You will only match to weeks.  That is how it has always been.  If resorts are in points only, you won't get matches, you have to go online to get them.  I have a platinum account and can see inventory for Maui in Wyndham points through the RCI Portal at 10 months out.  It's a great benefit, and you have to be online at midnight Eastern Time to get that inventory.
> 
> I was able to book Hono Koa for 2/15-2/20 in points at exactly 10 months out, which will match up to our stay at Hono Koa for three weeks after those initial five nights via points.  Got it right at midnight.  Not the fanciest of resorts, but it is our favorite on the island.  Our units are the best in the resort and we are very blessed to have 3 weeks to stay every year.


Depends on your company.  This is exactly what I did with some HICV points via RCI.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 11, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> Depends on your company.  This is exactly what I did with some HICV points via RCI.


You can't match into rci points inventory, you can use rci points or other types of points to match into rci weeks inventory.  You can tell the difference by the exchange fee required.  If it is $249 it is weeks inventory.


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## dgalati (Aug 11, 2021)

troy12n said:


> That's honestly the reason my family doesn't use RCI much. Because we simply do not have the flexibility to plan that far out because of work schedules and other commitments. Because if you happen to hit the lottery and get a great location, you are going to be at the mercy of whatever arbitrary week becomes available and take it or leave it. Maybe when we are retired and have infinite flexibility
> 
> But it's also good for if you are looking to get into places with a lot of inventory like Orlando or Vegas, you can reliably do that


Vegas always is available. Just watch out for the resorts that add the BS $20-$30 resort fees on top of the $239 exchange fee.


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## VacayKat (Aug 11, 2021)

snickers104 said:


> I empathize with the people that bought under the impression they could do what has been done in the past and now it has all changed. But going forward we ALL have to work with the system as it is. I doubt availability will increase in short term reservations...just like it has always been...if you don't plan ahead well in advance it just won't be there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


First -thanks for empathizing, we need more of that. I think this is a key point you mention. Folks bought not under the impression, but after being told exactly what they could do, and in many cases HOW to do it. I did not just get the gist that resale would be able to use the points because Wyndham didn’t separate them. I asked directly if, even though they did not count towards achieving VIP that they would always receive the benefits. Each time I asked I was answered in the affirmative, no beating around the bush on it, a direct answer. And at least one time was told Wyndham believes that to be an allowable perk for folks who give them so much in developer $ purchases.
Everyone who says - see????? You knew this time was coming, it was only a matter of time, shame on you for thinking your free ride wouldn’t come to an end - omits that not only was Wyndham complicit in giving that info to new owners but that unless folks were around AND part of discussions during the last crack down Wyndham didn’t tell a single prospective buyer what they were being told by sales people is not what the executives would permit. I think this is where the frustration on the part of resale VIP owners with others is coming from.


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## Mongoose (Aug 11, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> You can't match into rci points inventory, you can use rci points or other types of points to match into rci weeks inventory.  You can tell the difference by the exchange fee required.  If it is $249 it is weeks inventory.


Not sure I fully understand what you are saying.  My HICV brings over points.  In RCI the points are shown in HICV #'s not RCI.  I have options for for weeks and points with HICV.  I don't with WM.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> Depends on your company.  This is exactly what I did with some HICV points via RCI.


I don't know how to explain it better than I did, but you can test it yourself.  If you bought developer, you can get Points' inventory, which shows as points' inventory and can be had for less than 7 nights (but Disney points' inventory is only 7 nights, so that isn't one of those).  but if it's weeks, those will match ongoing searches.  Tracy is right that the exchange fees are different. 

I don't know anything about Holiday Inn, but perhaps you can see points inventory as an owner there.  But stays of under 7 nights won't match via ongoing search.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 11, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> Not sure I fully understand what you are saying.  My HICV brings over points.  In RCI the points are shown in HICV #'s not RCI.  I have options for for weeks and points with HICV.  I don't with WM.


You can see both rci points and rci weeks inventory with HICV points.  But units that have been deposited into the rci points inventory will not match an ongoing search.  You have to manually book those.  While RCI weeks inventory can be booked through an ongoing search or an instant/manual exchange.


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## Eric B (Aug 11, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> Not sure I fully understand what you are saying.  My HICV brings over points.  In RCI the points are shown in HICV #'s not RCI.  I have options for for weeks and points with HICV.  I don't with WM.



What you are using to exchange with is HICV points.  What you are getting can be either inventory that RCI has in RCI points (which allows stays other than 7 nights as well as stays of 7 nights) or inventory that RCI has in RCI weeks (which only allows 7 night stays except for a few that are for specific 3, 5, or whatever day chunks that are set by the depositer).  An OGS will only match RCI weeks inventory because that is inventory that is in discrete week long chunks - the RCI points inventory won't match because it's availability for time periods that are indeterminate.


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 11, 2021)

Cyrus24 said:


> Agree 100%.  Wyndham 'sold' the account usage ideas to MR's and are now taking it away.  People are being hurt and yet, some celebrate.  I find it hard to celebrate while some suffer.  I blame Wyndham for allowing it all to happen and the way they are dealing with it at this point in time.  And, I really object to the meanness being directed at the MR's.  I'm not an MR and I'm not being an apologist when it comes to  how one uses their points.  I merely don't like seeing groups of people being attacked.


Same. It’s fine to be glad that VIP can’t use resale points as VIP points in the future, but I will not gloat that it will harm people whom Wyndham encouraged to do just that. I would have felt better about it if the large owners were given some time to adjust their ownership or some kind of opportunity to adjust the ownership. All of the rule changes have been really fast without giving people impacted enough chance to figure out how to adapt. And by adapt, I don’t mean a new way to rent, I mean trying to perhaps give away some resales either to Wyndham or others. Or more than a day or two to put guest certificates on units booked with the intention of family using them. I know I wait to put the guest certificate on until past the cancellation period since I am not renting.


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## Eric B (Aug 11, 2021)

MaryBella7 said:


> Same. It’s fine to be glad that VIP can’t use resale points as VIP points in the future, but I will not gloat that it will harm people whom Wyndham encouraged to do just that. I would have felt better about it if the large owners were given some time to adjust their ownership or some kind of opportunity to adjust the ownership. All of the rule changes have been really fast without giving people impacted enough chance to figure out how to adapt. And by adapt, I don’t mean a new way to rent, I mean trying to perhaps give away some resales either to Wyndham or others. Or more than a day or two to put guest certificates on units booked with the intention of family using them. I know I wait to put the guest certificate on until past the cancellation period since I am not renting.



I'm more in line with it's fine for any owner to be happy about the prospect that they might have improved access due to the changes for whatever reason.  Being glad that VIPs won't be able to use resale points with VIP benefits seems a bit like schadenfreude to me - I understand why they feel that way, particularly in instances where they had been using other  aspects of the system (which I won't label as loopholes because that's not really accurate) that were terminated by Wyndham earlier.


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## Mongoose (Aug 11, 2021)

Eric B said:


> What you are using to exchange with is HICV points.  What you are getting can be either inventory that RCI has in RCI points (which allows stays other than 7 nights as well as stays of 7 nights) or inventory that RCI has in RCI weeks (which only allows 7 night stays except for a few that are for specific 3, 5, or whatever day chunks that are set by the depositer).  An OGS will only match RCI weeks inventory because that is inventory that is in discrete week long chunks - the RCI points inventory won't match because it's availability for time periods that are indeterminate.



I think I see now.  You are talking about Ongoing Search only matching for a week.  Haven't tried that for points.  If you haven't see the HICV RCI screens, here are two that have weeks and points.  BTW, That's a great deal on Bonnet Creek.  It equates to about $110 in MFs.


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## bnoble (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> isn't the matching account an RCI points account - not a weeks account?


Points inventory is visible only to those with either (a) at least one developer purchase or (b) a stand-alone enrollment in PlusPartners.


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## troy12n (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know how to explain it better than I did, but you can test it yourself.  If you bought developer, you can get Points' inventory, which shows as points' inventory and can be had for less than 7 nights (but Disney points' inventory is only 7 nights, so that isn't one of those).  but if it's weeks, those will match ongoing searches.  Tracy is right that the exchange fees are different.
> 
> I don't know anything about Holiday Inn, but perhaps you can see points inventory as an owner there.  But stays of under 7 nights won't match via ongoing search.



I'm by no means competent in RCI, but I was under the impression we just got RCI weeks accounts. I'm 100% developer points. When I connect to RCI I do it through the Wyndham portal, I have not used the new RCI website to book travel, the old one was pretty abysmal.

I thought you had to pay to get a RCI Points account. 

Also, I saw some postings about if you are Wyndham Platinum you get access to more inventory in RCI? That was news to me


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 11, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> This is a person that rents your points for you and you get a cut, they get a cut.  It worked for a lot of people in the past.  Our daughter was kind of our point manager, but she is also an owner.  Most point managers are not family members, they are just in the business to make money off of what you own.
> 
> I have been contacted by people through Redweek who want to rent my Sheraton weeks to their clients and give me my maintenance fees only.  Nope.  I don't need you to do that for me, I can rent myself.  If I don't rent my week, I can deposit it at the end of the year.  I don't need that kind of help.



Think in terms of a privatized version of Wyndham ExtraHolidays in essence.  There are _many _PMs out there still today - and in reality the PMs are a level removed from what is happening to the MRs in comparison - but the PMs will still be negatively impacted by the recent VIP/resale and GC changes - given all PMs are renting owner based points/reservations - and usually rent primarily VIP owned points - often within the 60 day discount window IME.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 11, 2021)

bnoble said:


> Points inventory is visible only to those with either (a) at least one developer purchase or (b) a stand-alone enrollment in PlusPartners.



Since I'm VIPG - does that mean I'd see both points and weeks inventory then?


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## bnoble (Aug 11, 2021)

Yes, because you have a developer purchase.


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## Eric B (Aug 11, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Since I'm VIPG - does that mean I'd see both points and weeks inventory then?



It's covered in the directory starting on page 262 under the heading PlusPartners - RCI Nightly Stay Option.  It's not a function of being VIPG, so wouldn't be restricted to VIP-eligible points; it's a function of having a developer purchase in the same account, which is a possibility for non-VIPs and VIPB and VIPS owners as well.  It's paid for with the extra 2 cents per 1,000 points for the program fees.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 11, 2021)

MaryBella7 said:


> Same. It’s fine to be glad that VIP can’t use resale points as VIP points in the future, but I will not gloat that it will harm people whom Wyndham encouraged to do just that. I would have felt better about it if the large owners were given some time to adjust their ownership or some kind of opportunity to adjust the ownership. All of the rule changes have been really fast without giving people impacted enough chance to figure out how to adapt. And by adapt, I don’t mean a new way to rent, I mean trying to perhaps give away some resales either to Wyndham or others. Or more than a day or two to put guest certificates on units booked with the intention of family using them. I know I wait to put the guest certificate on until past the cancellation period since I am not renting.



I sure hope it has come across from my posts that I can empathize - I even used a very personal example of my recent career upheaval as a primary example - it's never easy to have what may be a primary source of income put at risk - especially when you are the primary breadwinner.  That's the case even if a travel business was built on the shifting sands of a VIP resale policy that was a perk at best.  That certainly doesn't make it hurt any less.  My pastor would often say to me:  the solutions to our suffering may be simple, but the suffering itself never is.  

I'm also very aware and have given Wyndham a hard time myself about their cognitive dissonance practices with respect to their miserable sales practices for what is otherwise a pretty good product offering IME.  Timeshare companies in general employ a generally deceptive sales model that is built with a certain kind of plausible deniability (one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing - at least that is how it's portrayed) between the sales division and pretty much every other division of the company.  As some have said - it all starts at the top - and the top certainly knows exactly what goes on day to day within the business.


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## dgalati (Aug 11, 2021)

VacayKat said:


> First -thanks for empathizing, we need more of that. I think this is a key point you mention. Folks bought not under the impression, but after being told exactly what they could do, and in many cases HOW to do it. I did not just get the gist that resale would be able to use the points because Wyndham didn’t separate them. I asked directly if, even though they did not count towards achieving VIP that they would always receive the benefits. Each time I asked I was answered in the affirmative, no beating around the bush on it, a direct answer. And at least one time was told Wyndham believes that to be an allowable perk for folks who give them so much in developer $ purchases.
> Everyone who says - see????? You knew this time was coming, it was only a matter of time, shame on you for thinking your free ride wouldn’t come to an end - omits that not only was Wyndham complicit in giving that info to new owners but that unless folks were around AND part of discussions during the last crack down Wyndham didn’t tell a single prospective buyer what they were being told by sales people is not what the executives would permit. I think this is where the frustration on the part of resale VIP owners with others is coming from.


Like I said Wyndham has some culpability in the mega renter abuse. Let it be resale points that sales sold to mega renters or the stripping of 3 years use and the flipping of deeds with no current use year points that Wyndham was purchasing third party. Corporate turns a blind eye also to sales deceptive practices knowing its promoted from within.


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