# Increase on Marriott Prices Coming or Hoax by Marriott to drive sales?



## kschauberger (Mar 17, 2010)

I received this email yesterday from our sales rep at Marriott:
Greetings valued Marriott Vacation Club owner, I hope this email find you well.  As you may or may not be aware, for the past 18months during a soft economy Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) for the most part had been keeping sales price increases in check at most of our 54 resorts.  Very few sales price increases occurred over the past 12-18 months and when there was the occasional price increase it tended to be a very minimal increase.  In addition in April 2009, Marriott Vacation Club celebrated its 25th Anniversary and in celebration of 25 years of unforgettable vacations MVC, for the first time in our 25 year history, offered special discounts to those who purchased ownership interests.  These special 25th anniversary discounts have continued in one form or another throughout MVC’s 25th year.    

Well the economy is much stronger than it was a year ago, Marriott’s stock is currently flirting with it’s 52 week high and Marriott Vacation Club is apparently going to make up for lost time.  Today Marriott just announced major price increases that will be going into effect next week across the board at almost every Marriott Vacation Club resort.  In addition the price increase amounts I have seen so far are some of the largest price increase amounts I have seen in my 9+ years of working at Marriott.  Furthermore, MVC’s 25th year is almost over and the past two months with only one exception, the 25th Anniversary discounts have been slowly decreasing and in some cases eliminated as they are phased out.  There is a very good chance that the 25th Anniversary discounts will no longer be offered after this week. 

 So if you have ever thought about adding a week to your Marriott ownership portfolio, there will never be a better time to do so price wise than now.  Maybe there’s a resort you want to own and go back to every year, for other owners they just want another week with a great exchange trading power to get them into resorts around the world and still others are looking for a week they will trade for Marriott rewards points each year.  No matter what the reason, there’s inventory available to accomplish all of those things.  And as the saying goes…buy when prices are low, sell when they are high.   Rarely do you know when the lowest price point is…well this is one instance where you do.  Also for those of you who like pre-construction opportunities, pre-construction sales of our newest resort Marriott’s Kauai Lagoons on the island of Kauai, Hawaii also just commenced Sunday!

 Please call or email me right away for purchase/ownership pricing  & information for any of Marriott’s 54 resorts including the new Kauai Lagoons resort.  Paperwork will need to get going as soon as possible before the changes take effect next week.   For any of my owners who have questions regarding the usage of their current ownerships if it’s not urgent, can you please email or call me after next week or contact owner services at 1-800-845-4226.  Thank you and as always I look forward to being of service.


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## PerryM (Mar 17, 2010)

*Which planet again?*



kschauberger said:


> I received this email yesterday from our sales rep at Marriott:
> Greetings valued Marriott Vacation Club owner, I hope this email find you well.  As you may or may not be aware, for the past 18months during a soft economy Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) for the most part had been keeping sales price increases in check at most of our 54 resorts.  Very few sales price increases occurred over the past 12-18 months and when there was the occasional price increase it tended to be a very minimal increase.  In addition in April 2009, Marriott Vacation Club celebrated its 25th Anniversary and in celebration of 25 years of unforgettable vacations MVC, for the first time in our 25 year history, offered special discounts to those who purchased ownership interests.  These special 25th anniversary discounts have continued in one form or another throughout MVC’s 25th year.
> 
> Well the economy is much stronger than it was a year ago, Marriott’s stock is currently flirting with it’s 52 week high and Marriott Vacation Club is apparently going to make up for lost time.  Today Marriott just announced major price increases that will be going into effect next week across the board at almost every Marriott Vacation Club resort.  In addition the price increase amounts I have seen so far are some of the largest price increase amounts I have seen in my 9+ years of working at Marriott.  Furthermore, MVC’s 25th year is almost over and the past two months with only one exception, the 25th Anniversary discounts have been slowly decreasing and in some cases eliminated as they are phased out.  There is a very good chance that the 25th Anniversary discounts will no longer be offered after this week.
> ...



April Fools already?


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## GregT (Mar 17, 2010)

I agree with Perry -- it's ludicrous to raise prices in this economy.

Marriott may in fact be increasing prices for some other purpose, but it can't be because of demand.


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## Bill4728 (Mar 17, 2010)

Did you see the PS?



> PS  This June, Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) will be rolling out our new and improved Vacation Club offering. A point based TS exchange system where for only $5,000 you can join and trade your TS usage for points which can be used to reserve rooms at a few of our wonderful Marriott Vacation Club  resorts. Be sure to purchase your Marriott Vacation Club timeshare now so that in June we can up grade you to Marriott Vacation Club Points for only $5,000!!



PS  the above quote is my attempt at humor. :hysterical:


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## ondeadlin (Mar 17, 2010)

I would have a very hard time not e-mailing that rep back and telling him his e-mail was the funniest thing I've seen in some time.


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## ldanna (Mar 17, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> And as the saying goes…buy when prices are low, sell when they are high.



:hysterical: :rofl:  That was the best part of all. :rofl: :hysterical:


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## dougp26364 (Mar 17, 2010)

Remember, a $1 increase in price is still an increase in price. It they increase the price of Bronze or Silver weeks by $1 or even 50 cents, they can send out this message to create urgency on the buying publics part.

I'd shoot him an E-mail back saying Marriott might be increasing prices but resale prices are continuing to fall.


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## James1975NY (Mar 17, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> I received this email yesterday from our sales rep at Marriott:
> Greetings valued Marriott Vacation Club owner, I hope this email find you well.  As you may or may not be aware, for the past 18months during a soft economy Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) for the most part had been keeping sales price increases in check at most of our 54 resorts.  Very few sales price increases occurred over the past 12-18 months and when there was the occasional price increase it tended to be a very minimal increase.  In addition in April 2009, Marriott Vacation Club celebrated its 25th Anniversary and in celebration of 25 years of unforgettable vacations MVC, for the first time in our 25 year history, offered special discounts to those who purchased ownership interests.  These special 25th anniversary discounts have continued in one form or another throughout MVC’s 25th year.
> 
> Well the economy is much stronger than it was a year ago, Marriott’s stock is currently flirting with it’s 52 week high and Marriott Vacation Club is apparently going to make up for lost time.  Today Marriott just announced major price increases that will be going into effect next week across the board at almost every Marriott Vacation Club resort.  In addition the price increase amounts I have seen so far are some of the largest price increase amounts I have seen in my 9+ years of working at Marriott.  Furthermore, MVC’s 25th year is almost over and the past two months with only one exception, the 25th Anniversary discounts have been slowly decreasing and in some cases eliminated as they are phased out.  There is a very good chance that the 25th Anniversary discounts will no longer be offered after this week.
> ...



_Seriously???????_


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## IngridN (Mar 17, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> For any of my owners who have questions regarding the usage of their current ownerships if it’s not urgent, can you please email or call me after next week or contact owner services at 1-800-845-4226.  Thank you and as always I look forward to being of service.



I guess he'll be so busy writing up new purchase agreements this week into the wee hours of the morning, he won't have time for other stuff :hysterical: 

Ingrid


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## a1000monkeys (Mar 17, 2010)

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in their sales/marketing department meeting:

Sales head:  "Okay folks, the economy has people scared, we have a backlog of inventory and our commissions have been in the toilet.  What should we do?"

Newbie sales guy:  "How about we raise prices to increase our commissions."

Sales head:  "Brilliant!"


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## PerryM (Mar 17, 2010)

*Nutter Butter*



kschauberger said:


> ....BS...BS.....BS...
> 
> Well the economy is much stronger than it was a year ago, Marriott’s stock is currently flirting with it’s 52 week high and Marriott Vacation Club is apparently going to make up for lost time.  *Today Marriott just announced major price increases that will be going into effect next week across the board at almost every Marriott Vacation Club resort.  In addition the price increase amounts I have seen so far are some of the largest price increase amounts I have seen in my 9+ years of working at Marriott.*
> 
> ....BS...BS.....BS...



If this is true, Marriott has gone totally insane and the equally insane rumor of a June release of the Internal Exchange System finally makes sense in a nutty way.

It's sad to see a once great company go insane right in front of our eyes - I feel no joy here....


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## lovearuba (Mar 18, 2010)

*cant believe anything from sales folks*



PerryM said:


> If this is true, Marriott has gone totally insane and the equally insane rumor of a June release of the Internal Exchange System finally makes sense in a nutty way.
> 
> It's sad to see a once great company go insane right in front of our eyes - I feel no joy here....


 
Here is the issue I have with Marriott sales people. They sell for Marriott, get away with lying and somehow Marriott is not held responsible for anything their sales people say. Why is this allowed?  If the poster's email came from a Marriott sales person and since we know Marriott monitors and posts to this site, why dont they address the truth of their sales people posts.  Is it because they are approving it or just ignoring because they want to read what people have to say here. Is this site independent at all?  How many Marriott people post here? How would we know?


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## tlwmkw (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with Lovearuba- Marriott should be more careful.  The sales people are representing the company and shouldn't just say things that aren't true.  That said, where or who did this e-mail come from?  It may be that Marriott are going back to the old prices now.  They admit that the "sale" was successful in their corporate reports and they haven't been exercising ROFR so it may be that their inventory is decreasing and they feel they can return to their old prices.  I haven't received this information and usually do receive the info/surveys that others report seeing so it may just be one sales-guy who's acting on his own.  It remains to be seen.

tlwmkw


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## ACE1 (Mar 18, 2010)

We are at NCV right now and talked to someone in the spa today who is here from N. Dakota. They said that they had just purchased their second week here since the prices were going up.  They also own at Ko Olina.  We talked a little about the resale market but they were firm believers that if you purchased resale you wouldn't get the premium views that they get.  I didn't push things but did suggest that they check out Tug.  We have to leave here tomorrow but I love this place!


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## PerryM (Mar 18, 2010)

*Raise the roof?*

This is the chart that MVCI is betting their future on:





*Average USA home prices for the past 10 years*​
Me, I haven't a clue what real estate will do in the next year - so I won't do anything.

But I guess if you make your living spewing BS then you can convince yourself that the market has bottomed out and time to raise prices through the roof.


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## davidvel (Mar 19, 2010)

To the OP:

This may seem a bit off-topic, but please bear with me.

Let me just say that I had an especially rough work-week, extra hours, many stressful issues, and I am basically just ready for the week to end. Unfortunately, tomorrow will likely be Mon-Thu crammed all into one day. 

So to my point: I want to thank you for posting this e-mail. I have not had such a big, deep, guttaral laugh in some time. It felt great, and will really help me get through the long Friday, and into the weekend.

THANK YOU!!!


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## alhanna (Mar 19, 2010)

We took the tour at Shadow Ridge on Wednesday and I believe prices at the Enclaves were going up about $1,000 on Wednesday next week.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 19, 2010)

PerryM said:


> If this is true, Marriott has gone totally insane and the equally insane rumor of a June release of the Internal Exchange System finally makes sense in a nutty way.
> 
> It's sad to see a once great company go insane right in front of our eyes - I feel no joy here....



Insane? Geez it's just sales gimick to create ugrency. It's not even a new sales gimick for Marriott. We heard this line back on our first presentation in 2001. 

All they said was a price increase. They didn't say how much or on what weeks. If the price goes up by $1 on a bronze or silver week but the price remains the same on all other weeks, it's still a price increase. If Marriott decides it's can't support the 20% off anymore and they eliminate that incentive, I suppose one could still consider that a price increase.

Sometimes it's not what's said but what's NOT said that's more important. All salesmen try to create urgency when they're trying to sell you something. Exlusive deals, one time offers and extra benefits for buying now are all tricks they use to get you name on the dotted line. With as many sales presentations as you claim to have been on, you of all people should know this.

It's not a big deal. The world isn't coming to an end. Marriott isn't insane or falling down into the depths of timeshare heck just because their sales department is using a tried and true sales method of creating urgency. It's just business as usual in the sales world.


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## PerryM (Mar 19, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Insane? Geez it's just sales gimick to create ugrency. It's not even a new sales gimick for Marriott. We heard this line back on our first presentation in 2001.
> 
> All they said was a price increase. They didn't say how much or on what weeks. If the price goes up by $1 on a bronze or silver week but the price remains the same on all other weeks, it's still a price increase. If Marriott decides it's can't support the 20% off anymore and they eliminate that incentive, I suppose one could still consider that a price increase.
> 
> ...



I view the price increase as a VERY big deal - Marriott has signaled that the prices of their time slices (1/52) are worth more next week than today.  They are indicating that consumers will start to flood their sales gallerias and that the price is too low.

This requires someone with a crystal ball and if they are wrong sales will suffer.  Its one thing to BS your way through an implosion of our real estate market its quite another to decide they can look at that price chart and predict the bottom has arrived.

I don't think they have the skills to do this but its their company and the stock holders must be fed something or they will start to demand either sales go up or costs go down or both.

If they could just keep their pants on a few months and wait for the chart to start moving upwards I'd respect that - but that chart doesn't indicate any strength at all.


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## Beverley (Mar 19, 2010)

Buy when prices are low ... sell when they are high ..... 


:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical

beverley


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## kschauberger (Mar 20, 2010)

I have always felt that Marriott sales people are not quite with it.  Before I was married to my wife she bought a EOY even at the Grand Chateau, bought from them.  She then opted to purchase the odd years and did so.  This was done before she knew me.  A couple of years ago I was trying to figure out why there is dual maint fees in the same year.  I discovered the odd year she was suppose to get was sold t her as a even year.  How was she suppose to know this.  She called and got the run around for months.  I then stepped in and had a word with some VP in marriott about this and they agreed to purchase the even year back and resell a odd year at no cost to us at all.  They were able to fix this.  But how does someone there make such a big mistake and why do I have to go to the top to have something fixed.


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## davidvel (Mar 21, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> I have always felt that Marriott sales people are not quite with it.  But how does someone there make such a big mistake and why do I have to go to the top to have something fixed.


ANSWER, with appreciation to Beverly:



Beverley said:


> :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## Beverley (Mar 23, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> But how does someone there make such a big mistake and why do I have to go to the top to have something fixed.



      Let me see now ...... 

Ditto :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: 

Beverley


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## taffy19 (Mar 26, 2010)

*No Hoax!  Prices are increasing*



dougp26364 said:


> Remember, a $1 increase in price is still an increase in price. It they increase the price of Bronze or Silver weeks by $1 or even 50 cents, they can send out this message to create urgency on the buying publics part.
> 
> I'd shoot him an E-mail back saying Marriott might be increasing prices but resale prices are continuing to fall.


Prices are going up and more than a dollar, Doug.  That's for sure as I saw the new price sheet today and the old one on Monday at the MOC in Maui.


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## PerryM (Mar 26, 2010)

*Same ol' same ol'*



iconnections said:


> Prices are going up and more than a dollar, Doug.  That's for sure as I saw the new price sheet today and the old one on Monday at the MOC in Maui.



If Marriott had 2 cents worth of common sense they would take this time to revamp the stale old sales pitch - the entire 90 minutes worth.  Get rid of the old ways and introduce something revolutionary.

First thing they could do is reward loyal owners with special deals - raise prices but if you are an existing owner keep the old prices.

But no, Marriott has always believed in one-size-fits-all - doesn't matter if you own 5 Marriotts, #6 is the same price as the new guy off the street.

Here are some current headlines:

"Existing Home Sales peaked in November 2009, just as the First-Time Home Buyer Tax Credit was set to expire. Immediately thereafter, according to the National Association of Realtors®, monthly sales plunged 17 percent in December, then another 7 percent in January.

Comparatively, February’s dip is a modest 0.6 percent and is more in line with the pre-tax-credit Existing Home Sales trend.  The real estate market is rediscovering its normal. "

And with this news Marriott has decided to stick it to Ma and Pa at their sales gallery....


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## GaryDouglas (Mar 26, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Prices are going up and more than a dollar, Doug. That's for sure as I saw the new price sheet today and the old one on Monday at the MOC in Maui.


 
How much did they go up? and did they say how many units are left for the suites and villas?

I wouldn't be surprised with Marriott raising it's prices and actually getting them at MOC/MMO. Just like with housing developments, the last units usually go for the highest price (yes, I know, the economy is in the tank). They have enough experience with that property to know what they can get away with. Summer is coming and those that can afford to buy will. By June we will know just how well they called it.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 26, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Prices are going up and more than a dollar, Doug.  That's for sure as I saw the new price sheet today and the old one on Monday at the MOC in Maui.



Usually it's more than a dollar. The only point I was making was that Perry tends to be over the top and doesn't take into consideration that things may not be as bad as they appear. 

Most of the time (not all of the time mind you), the increases I've seen in prices have ranged from $100 to $1,000 depending on the season and size of the unit. Sometimes the increase has been a small increase on off season weeks, other times it's been a much larger increase on Platinum season weeks that are selling extremely well. The better the season is selling, the easier it is to sustain larger jumps in pricing. 

Marriott use to have relatively frequent price increases. My feeling was they did this just to give their salesmen something to create a sense of urgency. While it wasn't really a lie, unless you questioned them further on past price increases (they never seem to have the information on the next price increase but it's hard to hide historical price increases), they'd make it sound as if it was some huge increase and you'd better get in while the getting was good. 

In the end, this is just a sales gimmick to create a sense of urgency. Otherwise, there's no need to announce a price increase. You just increase the price. For that matter it's not as if Marriott is the only developer to use this practice. I believe I've heard something similar in almost every round table presentation I've sat through. How often have we heard these line: they're selling out so you'd better buy now, the price is going up tomorrow so buy now while the price is still low, new laws are preventing the sale of anymore timeshares in this area or, Disney is secretely buying up property and when they announce their new secrete theme park plans, values will go through the roof. In Vegas you get to hear about owning a piece of the strip and how land prices have historically gone up, making the value and price of timeshares shoot up drastically so you'd better buy today. If you've ever bought before they like to show you what a great deal you received back then and now's the time to buy another week before prices climb even higher and, buy the way, just think how much the value of that original week has increased in value. It's all a gimmick to create the idea you must buy NOW!

There's a lot of psychology that goes into one of these presentations. This is only a small part of it. It's really no big deal IMHO and nothing that should surprise any seasoned timeshare owner that's been to more than one or two presentations.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 26, 2010)

GaryDouglas said:


> How much did they go up? and did they say how many units are left for the suites and villas?
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised with Marriott raising it's prices and actually getting them at MOC/MMO. Just like with housing developments, the last units usually go for the highest price (yes, I know, the economy is in the tank). They have enough experience with that property to know what they can get away with. Summer is coming and those that can afford to buy will. By June we will know just how well they called it.



Always qualify the question of how many units are remaining. If you don't, they'll tell you have many are left at this particular phase. I was once told they only had a "handful" of three bedroom units left for sale at Grand Chateau. when I pressed, I finally got the saleman to admit that these were the only inventory remaining for occupancy the next year. There would be more units available in the future but, Marriott wasn't releasing those unit for sale yet. ie: they weren't running out, they just weren't releasing all of the units for sale at that time.


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## taffy19 (Mar 26, 2010)

GaryDouglas said:


> How much did they go up? and did they say how many units are left for the suites and villas?
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised with Marriott raising it's prices and actually getting them at MOC/MMO. Just like with housing developments, the last units usually go for the highest price (yes, I know, the economy is in the tank). They have enough experience with that property to know what they can get away with. Summer is coming and those that can afford to buy will. By June we will know just how well they called it.



Anywhere between almost $2,000 to about $3,500.  I don't have the prices with me but the big increase surprised me.  I have all the new prices but not the old prices of the suites.  Fixed week prices had not changed but I don't know about the incentives.

They expect to be sold out in a few months so the inventory must be small.


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## m61376 (Mar 27, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Anywhere between almost $2,000 to about $3,500.  I don't have the prices with me but the big increase surprised me.  I have all the new prices but not the old prices of the suites.  Fixed week prices had not changed but I don't know about the incentives.
> 
> They expect to be sold out in a few months so the inventory must be small.



That's a significant increase in this market. Are they still offering the "20% sale" with the price increase?

As for expecting to be sold out in a few months- I wonder if it is really true, or the usual rhetoric that is often used to promote sales. If sales were really that good and inventory really that low, I would have expected them to be buying back some of those great resale deals that have slipped through ROFR.

No doubt this is a prime property. But- let's face it- Hawaii tourism is way down. Are people really flocking to shell out $$$'s so that they will be sold out in a few months time? At a time when 25% of all homeowners have negative equity in their most important real estate property- their primary residence? I guess the brain trust at Marriott knows better than me, but I find it a bit surprising.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 27, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Anywhere between almost $2,000 to about $3,500.  I don't have the prices with me but the big increase surprised me.  I have all the new prices but not the old prices of the suites.  Fixed week prices had not changed but I don't know about the incentives.
> 
> They expect to be sold out in a few months so the inventory must be small.



That is a relatively large increase IMHO for what the market appears to be. Either sales are stronger than what tuggers believe them to be or, Marriott has lost touch with reality. Only time will tell. It's hard to believe the Marriott would go from 20% off to increasing prices what I think would be in the neighborhood of 5%.

But then again, if they're still offering 20% off, maybe they're just trying to claw their way back up to where they were before the current economic downturn struck. At any rate, I'm still not in the buying mood at this point in time.


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## PerryM (Mar 27, 2010)

*Going long for a ......... Hail Mary*


Raising prices at the worst possible time.

Releasing an internal exchange system with HUGE up-front initiation fees in June.

Put these two together and they spell D E S P E R A T E.

To me, it sound like antics a company does just before going out of business...


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## dougp26364 (Mar 27, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Raising prices at the worst possible time.
> 
> Releasing an internal exchange system with HUGE up-front initiation fees in June.
> 
> ...



Not that they won't put a huge up-front fee on any internal exchange program they might (or might not) introduce but, where do you get your information that there will be a HUGE upfront fee? Or do you just like to make a big splash with dramatic statements?

Somehow, you lost creditbility with your dramatic announcement sometime back about a Westgate resort being the #1 timeshare resort, then went on to brag about buying direct from the developer at that resort. It seems to me that it might be a good time to rerve the drama until after Marriott makes announcements that prove to be desperate.


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## radmoo (Mar 27, 2010)

We attended sales preview at Oceana Palms two weeks ago and there was no mention of internal trading system.


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## PerryM (Mar 27, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Not that they won't put a huge up-front fee on any internal exchange program they might (or might not) introduce but, where do you get your information that there will be a HUGE upfront fee? Or do you just like to make a big splash with dramatic statements?
> 
> Somehow, you lost *creditbility* with your dramatic announcement sometime back about a Westgate resort being the #1 timeshare resort, then went on to brag about buying direct from the developer at that resort. It seems to me that it might be a good time to *rerve* the drama until after Marriott makes announcements that prove to be desperate.



I'm just one Marriott owner with an opinion.  

June is but 2 months away and then we will see - or will we?

P.S.

creditbility is spelled credibility. 

rerve is spelled reserve.

I can play these games too but what's accomplished?  Why bash a fellow Marriott owner?

If you want to debate this current topic I'm all in.  My opinion is that with 4 years of never ending threats against the resale market Marriott is scared of something - that would be you and I the owners.

It just smells like fear from a fortune 500 company - that's all I'm saying.

I'm sure some here will take all this to mean Marriott is in a position of strength and that's what a company that size does - scare the customer, kick them when their down with a new exchange scheme, and raise prices to boot.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 27, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I'm just one Marriott owner with an opinion.
> 
> June is but 2 months away and then we will see - or will we?
> 
> ...



Ah yes, the old you can't spell comeback. Got news for ya, I know I can't spell. I also have a degree from a community college in case you want to use that stick as well. 

F.E.A.R. False Evidence Appearing Real. Unless you have something firm to hang you hat on, you're just guessing and spreading fear. EVERY timeshare developer has some sort of stick their sales team whips out against resale purchasers and, they've been doing it far longer than 4 years. If Marrott's only been doing it for 4 years I wonder what took them so long? A salesman trying to talk against resale purchases isn't news......it's just life. 

Marriott may or may not be in a position of strength. None of us have control over what Marriott believes it's position to be. If they're wrong when they increase prices, they'll figure it out. It does not indicate to me that they are desperate. 

As for the points based exchange system. Owners have been asking for that for a number of years. I know I've read that, if Marriott combined their properties with HGVC's points based reservations system, they'd be impossible to beat. We'll, maybe Marriott was listening. 

My belief is that you're fear is any new points based system will interfer with how you can manipulate your gold season Marriott week to get better units in exchange. I suppose I should have the same concern as I own a silver season week with Marriott but, there's one difference. I didn't buy into the Marriott system with a lower season week to exchange. I purchased to own and use that week. 

It's the same with how everyone jumped on the cheap South African weeks a few years ago. They bought to exchange and not to use. Now that the playing field seems to have been leveled on those weeks, they're not such a hot commodity right now. 

In 12 years of timesharing the one truth I've found is you need to own a unit were you're happy staying. Exchanging weeks is always going to change. Sometimes you're a winner when the happens, sometimes you're a loser. As far as exchanging I've had to modify how I go about my business as the playing field has changed over the years. At one point, I thought I might have to try to get rid of our original purchases as they weren't of much value anymore either to use or exchange. Then came the opportunity to move them into a points based exchange system and, for us, the entry costs was still a good deal. Now those unit are off and running again getting us the value we need.

Change happens. You can either roll with it or cry that the sky is falling. At issue here is there is nothing solid to debate, only speculation and rumor. It's one thing to debate what might happen. It's entirely irrepsonsible to say Marriott is desperate, going bankrupt or any such BS that might be qualified as an opinion.


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## PerryM (Mar 27, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Ah yes, the old you can't spell comeback. Got news for ya, I know I can't spell. I also have a degree from a community college in case you want to use that stick as well.
> 
> F.E.A.R. False Evidence Appearing Real. Unless you have something firm to hang you hat on, you're just guessing and spreading fear. EVERY timeshare developer has some sort of stick their sales team whips out against resale purchasers and, they've been doing it far longer than 4 years. If Marrott's only been doing it for 4 years I wonder what took them so long? A salesman trying to talk against resale purchases isn't news......it's just life.
> 
> ...



Bingo!  I'm perfectly happy with my Gold Summit Watch and exchanging it into Marriott's Maui Ocean Club for President's Week and Week 51 at Summit Watch and Mountain Side as I have been doing for many years now.

I bought the Gold week resale because I knew I could do that.

What's wrong with that?

Marriott now want's to do away with that and impose a marketing scheme - Points.

It will mean for me:

An initiation fee - my guess is $2,500 for the week - paid $5,500 for it.
No trading power at all
Less II availability since many Platinum weeks will disappear from II and enter the new system
The resale value of my Gold week will decrease by at least $2,500

Damn right I'm ticked off at Marriott's new gimmick.


Does anyone here think their exchanges will be better?  I know mine won't.
Does anyone here think it will cost the same as II to use the new system?  I'm guessing $2,500 for my week.
Does anyone here think resales will increase in value because of the new scheme?  I know I will lose $2,500 out of pocket cost because of the new scheme.

I have every right to be ticked off at Marriott's new gimmick.

This sales gimmick is designed to put money in Marriott's pockets at my expense and prevent me from getting great exchanges in II as I do now.

All I can do is inform folks what my circumstance is and what I believe Marriott will do to me for their desire to make a buck or two for their stockholders at my expense.

We will find out shortly but luckily I only have 1 gold week on the line - many of you here have every right to be scared out of your minds.


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## scrapngen (Mar 27, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Bingo!  I'm perfectly happy with my Gold Summit Watch and exchanging it into Marriott's Maui Ocean Club for President's Week and Week 51 at Summit Watch and Mountain Side as I have been doing for many years now.
> 
> I bought the Gold week resale because I knew I could do that.
> 
> ...



Does anyone here think their exchanges will be better?  

I would think there are several people here who are hoping for exactly that! Those people who bought the higher end places that you enjoy so much might like to get better trades than they do now. 

I am an admitted newbie, but I have no problem w/how you bought, Perry, and admire how much you've learned to play the game. However, you have had to change your strategy in the past, so why is this possibility bothering you so much this time? I think everyone gets it that all the developers are trying to earn money for their stockholders - why label Marriott and their potential changes as desperation or bankruptcy?? I think this is what people are reacting to in your posts, IMHO. I see threads about the Pahio people reacting to Wyndham trying to change their weeks to points. Many chose not to switch and are still enjoying the rights they bought and getting the weeks they want. (from what I can tell...)

This is a speculative thread and everyone has their right to an opinion, but until we see how it actually develops, we don't know who will "win or lose" with the potential changes. If we all keep a friendly dialogue going, then maybe the Tug family can figure it out, and continue to benefit from whatever new system gets put in place.  Yikes, I think I'll start singing Kumbaya now!!:ignore:


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## JimIg23 (Mar 27, 2010)

scrapngen said:


> Does anyone here think their exchanges will be better?



IMO, other than Hawaii and Platimun Aruba and St Thomas, I think everyone is going to be surprised that their value in points is not as high as they thought it may be.  Only time will tell.


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## scrapngen (Mar 27, 2010)

FYI - I was restating Perry's question from his quote and responding when I wrote "does anyone think their exchanges will be better?" so it is actually his quote, not mine. My response to him followed. Sorry if my quoting his whole thing made things confused  

Regardless, I'm just watching all the speculations and again think that if and when a new system appears, more experienced Ts'ers will be spending some serious time and thought to how it affects all the different players.. I will be one of the less experienced TS'ers also examining the information and making a decision on how it will affect my vacations.


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## dundeeyank (Mar 27, 2010)

*not looking to trade for years*

I bought, I admit retail, 2 Plat. weeks at Marriott Frenchman's Cove. I don't plan on trading for anywhere else for at least 5 years.   So this discussion doesn't mean much to me..  I'm happy with my location, happy with current management and board decisions and expect to make this trip for years to come.  Just like politics,  wait 5 years and it will all be different and all the same.


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## csalter2 (Mar 27, 2010)

*I Find You Folks To Be Very Funny*

I must say that I find that you folks are so funny because of all the speculation you are  doing and seemingly in some cases getting worked up over something that is not even in print yet. What Marriott will do, when they will do it, how they will do it and why they will do it is insignificant until they actually do something. But the energy I have seen expended on this matter is really amazing to me. 

Points will be good for some and bad for others. Although I have another system that uses points,  I doubt if I will switch because I want to keep my home resort advantage that I have at Ko Olina. I don't want to mess with that property and any advantage I may have by not moving to points.  Since I can stay at other properties throughout the country through DRI, Marriott going to points is insignificant to me. 

I will wait until it's all said and done before I make any assessment on what may be.


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## PerryM (Mar 27, 2010)

*Who again gave them permission to do all this???*



scrapngen said:


> Does anyone here think their exchanges will be better?
> 
> I would think there are several people here who are hoping for exactly that! Those people who bought the higher end places that you enjoy so much might like to get better trades than they do now.
> 
> ...



It would be one thing if Marriott introduced a Points system that was owner friendly - ANY owner can join, $99 to join, $139 per exchange, and membership transfers to the owner who will eventually buy my week when I sell it.

But that's not what Marriott has in mind is it?

Marriott is taking OUR usage away from us - who gave them permission to do this?  Not me.

Marriott will be extorting money from us with the threat of little to none existing advantage for folks like me.  Who gave them permission to do this to us?

Marriott will decrease the value of our resales by making membership nontransferable.  Who gave them permission to do this to us?

Too many here are ready to roll over to the wishes of Marriott to make their stockholders wealthy at our expense.

You will all see when Marriott unloads this unneeded scheme on us.  The net result will be right back where we are now - some will lose and some will win.  But Marriott will take our sold out resorts and our usage to make a fat profit.

I don't like it - that's my opinion.


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## scrapngen (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> It would be one thing if Marriott introduced a Points system that was owner friendly - ANY owner can join, $99 to join, $139 per exchange, and membership transfers to the owner who will eventually buy my week when I sell it.
> 
> But that's not what Marriott has in mind is it?
> 
> ...


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Bingo!  I'm perfectly happy with my Gold Summit Watch and exchanging it into Marriott's Maui Ocean Club for President's Week and Week 51 at Summit Watch and Mountain Side as I have been doing for many years now.
> 
> I bought the Gold week resale because I knew I could do that.
> 
> ...



Where to start. 

First off, as a seasoned timeshare user, I'd expect you to know that the rules change all the time. When you buy cheap to exchange expensive, eventually the rules will change and you'll have to learn a new trick. The playing field never remains the same. Crying about it is of no use. It's going to change. It's the primary reason I suggest new owners buy where they will be happy to vacation should all else fail. Buying to exchange usually means that eventually, you'll have to change your ownership. The movement in timeshare for the last few years has been towards points based exchange systems. Or have you missed that trend? 

About a year ago, I had two units I was debating getting rid of myself. Initially I purchased them to use but, as our needs changed over time, they became units we exchanged. MF's continued to go up and hundreds of more timeshare units were built within walking distance of these two units. Life had changed and I had a decision to make. 

As it turned out, DRI bought Sunterra and I was given a reprieve. In our case, it made economic sense to pay the additonal $2,995 to join their points based program and continue on with these units for exchange purposes. I make no illusion to the fact that, at some point in time, the rules will change again and I may be back in the position of finding these units don't fit our needs. But, I understand that and I'm not going to cry foul when things eventually change. 

Another thing I find wrong is claiming the Marriott is desperate. That's awfully dramatic when the only one desperate appears to be you. Marriott has the right to change it's program or have you missed that part of timesharing 101? Marriott's needs are in developement, sales and management. Because Marriott still makes a good portion of is money from management fee's, they have a vested interest in keeping their owners happy. I assume it ticks off owners at expensive resorts that owners of inexpensive gold weeks can get their expensive weeks on the cheap. Marriott, or any other developer, will try to even that playing field. Why? because they want to sell those expensive weeks and keep the manipulators out of the game. Marriott has no interest in selling cheap weeks to be exchanged for expensive weeks. They want you to buy the expensive weeks if you want to stay there. 

Marriott is NOT alone with this line of thinking. Starwood, Disney, Hilton, Wyndham, Bluegreen, Festiva, Diamond Resorts et......have all come to this realization. I just don't see how you've missed this trend. They ALL have an interest in a more even playing field for their owners. Sure you can buy cheap but now you'll get what you paid for. The owners that pay more will be happy and those that paid less really can't complain that they're not getting what they paid for. You bought a Gold week, you'll get the value of that Gold week. What might change is that you'll be stuck with the value of that Gold week. 

Now, as far as what Marriott might or might not do, who knows. I just have trouble believing you, of all people, have let timeshare salesmen get under your skin. You should know as well as anyone that the sales staff is ALWAYS the last to know. Short of what DaveM might post I don't believe anything. I know there is the AP program and I don't particularly care for what I've read about it. I know what Fletch has posted but, with all do respect, Fletch was in sales. I don't doubt that he's been told certain things I just doubt what he was told. Again, sales is usually the last to know. Rumors run rampent with sales and marketing. It's always someone said that someone said.

I just don't see the need for dramatics at this time. Marriott might not change anything. When they make a change, then we'll have something to really talk/complain about. Until then, there is NOTHING to complain about and, for that matter, nothing to really worry about. In the end none of us can do anything about what will happen in the future.

Tone the drama down a bit. Marriott isn't going bankrupt, you're ownership is still worth what a gold week is worth and Interval is still a viable option. If things change that make you gold week only worth a gold week, so what? It seems that you're complaint is that you might not be able to manipulate the system anymore. Guess that happens when people brag about how smart they are in public. Corporations can close that door.

As for what it means to you, you're only guessing. You DON'T know. Unless you have connections no one else has, you CAN'T know. Right now the reality is that it means absolutely NOTHING. 

You bought a week resale on the cheap to scam the system. You bought a week cheap for access to more expensive weeks. IF the system changes, I can only hope you like the week you bought because that's what you're stuck with.

For me, we bought weeks that work well for us to exchange amd work well for us for personal usage. If the system changes, we still own the weeks we purchased. Will I be dissapointed I can't trade my silver season studio up to a one or two bedroom unit during gold or even platinum season at some resorts? Sure I will but, I realize that I've been getting extra value out of that studio. I knew that the door could eventually close on that loophole. Will I be disappointed the my Vegas week might not have enough points to get me to Hawaii as an even trade? Sure I will. But, I know change happens. 

Marriott might want to create an equal system. While you and I have enjoyed trading up, I can understand the frustration of those who own expensive weeks trading down. I'm not going to kick and scream that I'm being cheated if/when Marriott levels the playing field. Instead, I'm going to examine my options and choose what works best for me. The new points program or sticking with what I have and finding new ways to maximize my ownership.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Where to start.
> 
> First off, as a seasoned timeshare user, I'd expect you to know that the rules change all the time. When you buy cheap to exchange expensive, eventually the rules will change and you'll have to learn a new trick. The playing field never remains the same. Crying about it is of no use. It's going to change. It's the primary reason I suggest new owners buy where they will be happy to vacation should all else fail. Buying to exchange usually means that eventually, you'll have to change your ownership. The movement in timeshare for the last few years has been towards points based exchange systems. Or have you missed that trend?
> 
> ...



At my Summit Watch Marriott cleans the toilets and runs the front desk.  This gives them permission to interfere with my ability to exchange my week among other Summit Watch owners?

Marriott is interfering with my exchanging ability with II - I don't like it; I'm happy with the current exchange company II.

Additionally, Marriott will be selling the ability to exchange into a juicy week at Summit Watch to folks who have no connection to my resort - except the name Marriott on the sold out resort.

You just watch Marriott steamroller over our right to enjoy our resort for no other reason than to make a profit for their stockholders.

And yes I'm looking at this timeshare developer in terms of a worst case scenario of what they can do to us - there is good reason to do.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> At my Summit Watch Marriott cleans the toilets and runs the front desk.  This gives them permission to interfere with my ability to exchange my week among other Summit Watch owners?
> 
> Marriott is interfering with my exchanging ability with II - I don't like it; I'm happy with the current exchange company II.
> 
> ...



As far as internal Marriott to Marriott exchanges yes to the extent that others will join any new internal exchange program they announce. Come on, you know the rules. 

You still own your deeded week, which is what you paid for and, you can still exchange your deeded week via I.I. Past that, you own nothing. That's why timeshares are real real estate. If the resort went belly up, how much do you think you'd get? You own air and nothing more. 

Of course they'll sell the ability to exchange internally between resorts. That's what internal exchange programs are all about. I personally like them. I have greater access to the Hilton properties in Hawaii than I do the Marriott properties, which I'll compete with everyone else through Interval whether or not they're Marroitt owners. 

Now this is where speculation and fear come into play. You want to believe there will be no home resort advantage. I, on the other hand, feel that since every resort system I know with an internal points exchange system  has a home resort advantage, Marriott will have it also. Let me repeat that in case you missed it. EVERY points based internal exchange program I know of has a home resort advantage. Why would Marriott be any different? Sure it could happen but, what advantage would that be to anyone who actually bought a resort week to use......and I've met a lot of people who bought specifically to use their week. 

So long as there's a home resort advantage the only compitition you have will be other Summit Watch Gold week owners. At least during the home resort period. After the home resort reservation period ends then every Marriott owner gets a shot. After that, the rest of Interval will get a shot at what's left over. An internal exchange system actually makes it EASIER to get the Marriott weeks you want. 

Your problem is, it also makes trading up harder as you've come to know it. You're not going to take that Gold week at Summit Watch and get a Platinum Maui Ocean Club week through the internal exchange system. For that, you'll have to do the SAME AS YOUR DOING NOW. Go through Interval and attempt to exchange up. For the next few years I anticipate the window of opportunity will remain open. Remember, people can still get Diamond Resort weeks, Wyndham weeks, Bluegreen weeks, Hilton weeks, Starwood weeks and Disney weeks. You'll still be able to manipulate the system but, you may have to learn a new trick or two. Trust me, I have 3 weeks in points based systems and, even though it might not appear so on the surface, you can manipulate things to maximize value. It just takes new eyes. 

Marriott can't steamroll your right to enjoy what you own. You still hold a deed for the right to enjoy one gold week per year at Summit Watch and they can not take that away from you. You're afraid of shadows on the wall and for someone as well versed in timeshare as you, it really makes me shake my head. 

Nothing has happened. Stop letting the salesmen get to you. I read some of the posts you made on the forum where timeshare salesmen used to post. If they can mess with your head after some of the bragging you did there believe me, they'll do it. 

If/when Marriott makes a change THEN we'll have something to really debate. It will take time for all of us to calculate the angles and determine what works for each of us. It took me maybe 6 months of research when DRI jumped into the points game to figure out how that program would work for me. I anticipate it will be the same with Marriott. Until then, no worries.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> IMO, other than Hawaii and Platimun Aruba and St Thomas, I think everyone is going to be surprised that their value in points is not as high as they thought it may be.  Only time will tell.



Not necessarily better, just different. As I've said before, I own three weeks that are in points based exchange systems. One is with HGVC and the other two are with DRI. Hilton has always been points and they have an excellent system that works well for internal exchanges.

DRI was originally a weeks based exchange system but, there were no other resorts than Polo Towers. So it wasn't quite like Marriott where there is a Marriott preference for the first 24 days or a discounted exchange rate for internal exchanges. Otherwise, the system was the same.

When we were offered points, I had to look the program over. Because we owned two weeks and because the points value for those week was relatively high, it was a good deal for us to switch. If we hadn't have joined the points based program there was no change. We'd have continued to either use our weeks just like we always had or we'd have continued to exchange them through Interval.

It's not always as clear as "does anyone think exchanges will be better?" It's more that exchanges will most likely be different. Owners may need to adjust their thinking in what works best to maximize their value. 

It very well could be that getting from Orlando to Hawaii could get a whole lot easier. With points you know EXACTLY what it takes to get particular week. There is no deposit and hope. There won't be debate about whether a studio Orlando week will pull a Jan-March St. Thomas week. You'll know what it takes. 

Now with DRI there's a twist that I sort of like. If I can travel last minute, either with DRI or through I.I., I can get my exchanges for *1/2 the normal points. Will Marriott do something like that? None of us know. To many of us are focused on the glass being half empty.

So yes, the exchange might actually be better. Then again, they might not be any better and, I'm relatively certain that for some it won't be worth joining any new internal points program at all.

Anyone want to take a guess which side Perry's coming down on? How about why? I've said it before and I'll say it again. DON'T buy a week strictly to exchange. It's always a plus if it exchanges well but, you should buy a week because you like the week first and exchanges should be secondary. It's when exchanging is primart that change really causes a little pucker factor. 

Everyone needs to remember that, nothing and I do mean nothing has changed yet. Everything we've posted is strictly guesswork. Marriott hasn't screwed anyone over yet. Really now, does anyone really believe that Marriott is going to shoot itself in the foot by coming out with something as horrible as some of you want to believe?*


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

scrapngen said:


> PerryM said:
> 
> 
> > It would be one thing if Marriott introduced a Points system that was owner friendly - ANY owner can join, $99 to join, $139 per exchange, and membership transfers to the owner who will eventually buy my week when I sell it.
> ...


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> scrapngen said:
> 
> 
> > PerryM said:
> ...


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

After all the posts I read from you about out foxing the sales people, now all of the sudden you're concerned with what they say. I honestly just don't get it. 

At this point it's obvious :deadhorse:


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## modoaruba (Mar 28, 2010)

Having been in retail for many years,a price increase at first sucks up those desperate to buy thinking to get in before the prices go up further.
Followed by a sale where the savings were adjusted by the price increase and prior sales.
Buying in todays market makes no sense to me.IMO.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> After all the posts I read from you about out foxing the sales people, now all of the sudden you're concerned with what they say. I honestly just don't get it.
> 
> At this point it's obvious :deadhorse:



This whole thread and the threads about the new internal exchange system have nothing whatsoever to do with salesreps - it's Marriott's shocking behavior.

I keep wondering why a Fortune 500 company must revert to spreading fear mongering and the only thing that comes to mind lately is Toyota.

We own 3 Toyotas now and have only bought Toyotas for the past 30 years or so - not anymore.

Our next car will probably be a Honda.  I've had the driver's side rug creep forward and block the gas pedal - this prevented me from accelerating a few times in critical conditions.  I thought is was just me but I now know that Toyota knew of this problem, and the reverse problem of making the gas pedal sticking closed for 10+ years on their cars.

Marriott seems to be doing the same thing - making irrational decisions, like raising prices when there are NO signs of a recovery in the credit markets and real estate markets.  This 4+ years of fear mongering is just another piece in the puzzle of what's going on at Marriott.

I've speculated that Marriott is:

Stupid
Vindictive
Fear mongering 
Greedy
And lastly scared that MCVI will sink their ship

I'll probably come up with other theories to explain the demented behavior of this company in the future too.

But something is wrong with Marriott and MVCI we will eventually find out what it is - it's just fun to speculate what's wrong with Marriott and what the real answer is.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> ... But something is wrong with Marriott and MVCI we will eventually find out what it is - it's just fun to speculate what's wrong with Marriott and what the real answer is.



I really think that the relatively recent mainstream use of the internet is what's wrong with Marriott.  Or, put a better way, the knowledge that more and more exchangers and would-be developer purchasers gain from the internet is what's hurting Marriott the most.

Think about it - ten years ago relatively fewer folks were aware of the resale market at all, nevermind the price differential between resale and developer purchasers.  As well, most developer owners of the newer, higher-quality/priced resorts were for the most part not aware of the tricks that exchangers learned on the internet to use their older Silver 1BR to get Plat 2BR weeks.

I hope Marriott is taking steps to even out the exchanging field, at least, and really don't care if it will mean that folks who have gotten used to trading up will no longer have that option.  Trading down isn't any fun - I want points that will get me 3BR at an equal-quality resort, even if it means that I'll get a 2BR and a 1BR for another time.  And if a new system enhances the product significantly in such a way that the differential between resale and direct is reduced, I'm all for it.  (No, I don't know how, but I'm open to the possibility.)

In the end, though, with respect to exchanges, I'm a satisfied owner now and will remain satisfied whether they stay as is and do nothing or implement a new points system, because none of us are guaranteed any specific trade value.  The contracts only give us a right to exchange.

Isn't the prevailing wisdom on TUG that "if a salesperson's mouth is moving s/he's lying?"  Well, I don't happen to believe that but if you do, why would you believe it if they say that the exchanging system will always be the same and trade-ups will always be possible?  Seems awfully convenient now to hang your hat on what a salesperson may have said, especially for the resale buyers who may not have even spoken with a Marriott salesperson but are relying on the things that may have been said to others and posted to TUG.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

*Roll over and beg....*



SueDonJ said:


> I really think that the relatively recent mainstream use of the internet is what's wrong with Marriott.  Or, put a better way, the knowledge that more and more exchangers and would-be developer purchasers gain from the internet is what's hurting Marriott the most.
> 
> Think about it - ten years ago relatively fewer folks were aware of the resale market at all, nevermind the price differential between resale and developer purchasers.  As well, most developer owners of the newer, higher-quality/priced resorts were for the most part not aware of the tricks that exchangers learned on the internet to use their older Silver 1BR to get Plat 2BR weeks.
> 
> ...



The day the new Points system is introduced is the day resale Marriotts fall by the same amount as the initiation fee.  My guess is $2,500 for each week you own.

That impacts EVERY Marriott owner eventually.

Marriott is like a bull moose in a china shop leaving a wake of destruction behind them.

Right now I can sell my Gold Summit Watch and the new owner can use II for free, if they already have an II account, or by a small fee to join.  That will radically change when Marriott makes membership in their Point system nontransferable.

I'm amazed how easy it is for Marriott owners to simply roll over and take anything Marriott wants to shove down our throats to make their stockholders richer.


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## Fredm (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> The day the new Points system is introduced is the day resale Marriotts fall by the same amount as the initiation fee.  My guess is $2,500 for each week you own.
> 
> That impacts EVERY Marriott owner eventually.



If Marriott introduces a points system, I agree. 
Even if there is no discernible difference in exchange opportunities to those who do not join the points program. Market psychology is such that buyers will not understand, or care, that there is no difference.

Just look at Starwood resales. In virtually every instance, resorts that permit resale buyers to use points for internal trading command a (much) higher resale value, than those that do not. Never mind that I.I. has proven to allocate blockbuster trade values for the non-point weeks.


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## m61376 (Mar 28, 2010)

Although I have a lot of reservations about any possible new points systems based on both what those "in the know" have posted (such as loss of home resort priority, etc.), which correlates with the Asia Pacific program, and the concern that Marriott may artificially inflate point assignment at newer resorts simply as a sales tool, disproportional to the true value of the week on the retail market (as has been done in the past by Starwood, for ex.), there is the possibility that Marriott will introduce a sound, reasonable, fair system that is an asset to ownership for those who have not been playing the system, so to speak. 

IF Marriott introduces a point system that is designed for equitable use of the value of the owned week and has increased flexibility as a bonus, it could be a winner program. I think essential features include a system:

-where home resort priority is maintained (either as an overlay or even using the point system when booking at one's home resort, but giving owners using their owned week or portion thereof first crack at reserving)

-where point values are assigned initially and to future resorts based on a comparative scale, which is objectively based on real market value. Since demand, location and resort amenities/characteristics dictate the rental market, and since Marriott has already established that based on supply and demand via rental rates at Marriott.com for every timeshare property, including differences for size and view, I think that an extrapolation of those rates for the purpose of affixing timeshare point value (and subsequent point "cost" to reserve) would be an objective way of ensuring relative value equality both today and in the future (since future developments will have a rack rental rate which can be compared to any of the earlier developments and relative worth and point value and be calculated accordingly). Any system that utilizes arbitrary point assignments is, imho, ripe for developer abuse.

-where the buy in cost is minimal and where all currently owned units, regardless of mode of purchase, are included. If Marriott is starting something new, they should start out on a fresh slate. Future resale purchases should be eligible to buy into the system, but a $1000 surcharge might be reasonable and not too onerous.

-The new system can include a means to make developer sales more attractive by re-evaluating the trade for points option and make the timeshare points to Marriott Rewards point conversion rate an attractive perk of ownership, as it was initially designed to do. Resale weeks never had that option and there is no need to give those weeks that option, and that's the best way to differentiate between modes of purchase. Give developer purchasers back the benefit they paid for in the first place.

-where owners can save or borrow points from one year to the next and, perhaps, even purchase up to 25% of the points needed for a given reservation at a reasonable rate.

-where owners can reserve not only location and room size, but view (obviously at a point differential). I'd love to be able to know what view I'm getting and, alternately, it might be worth saving some points for a lesser view at some locations.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

*Hijacking 101....*



m61376 said:


> Although I have a lot of reservations about any possible new points systems based on both what those "in the know" have posted (such as loss of home resort priority, etc.), which correlates with the Asia Pacific program, and the concern that Marriott may artificially inflate point assignment at newer resorts simply as a sales tool, disproportional to the true value of the week on the retail market (as has been done in the past by Starwood, for ex.), there is the possibility that Marriott will introduce a sound, reasonable, fair system that is an asset to ownership for those who have not been playing the system, so to speak.
> 
> IF Marriott introduces a point system that is designed for equitable use of the value of the owned week and has increased flexibility as a bonus, it could be a winner program. I think essential features include a system:
> 
> ...



The REAL reason Marriott desperately wants a Points system is very simple:

So they can sell Week 52 at MountainSide, Summit Watch, etc. over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

There are NO limits really to how many of your weeks they can sell to new clients.  Their sales pitch will now become:

"It doesn't matter where you buy anymore - it only matters how many Points you need to get to where you want to vacation".

They will supersaturate ALL Platinum and Platinum Plus Holiday weeks in ALL resorts.  Instead of fighting just Platinum owners for Platinum weeks you will be fighting ALL members in the new exchange system.

Marriott is hijacking your resort to sell the juiciest weeks to new folks who will buy at doggy Marriotts with over-inflated Points to move those doggy weeks.

This is the ONLY reason Marriott is doing this folks - to hijack your unit for their sales effort.


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## taffy19 (Mar 28, 2010)

Perry, there is no way that Marriott can do that.

1) Your resort is sold out.  Nobody can buy there unless someone sells.

2) Every unit has deeds for every week.

3) Each owner has the right to use a week in the season they bought.

Where is the problem?  Who says that they are going over to a Wyndham (Trendwest) type system for sure where they sell on the beach but the new resorts are built in a less prime location but the resorts are making up for the lack of location so they still get a lot of points.  I don't see Marriott going that way.

What is so desirable about the Marriott are their great locations where people want to go.  They are not going to change that so why the worry?  They can't take away your deed unless you agree to do so.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

*Delirious salesreps know all this...*



iconnections said:


> Perry, there is no way that Marriott can do that.
> 
> 1) Your resort is sold out.  Nobody can buy there unless someone sells.
> 
> ...



Trust me, the salesreps will instantly convert to selling Points - where the Points come from make little difference.

Marriott controls what each unit's Point values are worth and Marriott has no obligation to make this a "fair" system - its a sales tool.  All the misinformation, exaggeration, slight of hand, and outright lies are perfect for this system.

Marriott need not own a single week - they are going to simply go over to a terminal and pull up the exchange system as say:

"See that week 52 at Maui - it's yours for 50,000 Points and I can sell you 2 Silver weeks in Siberia that generate 50,000 Points each year - and at a fraction of the cost to by in Maui".

Today if the salesrep wanted to sell you a week 52 in Maui Marriott actually had to own that week to sell.  Hawaii forbids Point systems from being sold on Hawaiian soil - WorldMark can't sell anything there.  But Marriott doesn't have this problem since their owners are the ones putting up the weeks into the system.


With Marriott no longer needing to own ANYTHING they can sell their Points system and where the units are deeded means nothing anymore.

That's exactly how all this will work.  This is why the salesreps are delirious over this system.  They can sell an unlimited quantity of holiday weeks at EVERY Marriott the day the new system hits - unlimited.

The new exchange system is 100% a sales tool and if you get any value out of it that's ok too.  And to top it off you will be paying for the R&D, programming, training, everything for Marriott and then pay to use the system.  Now that's a sales tool.


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## RandR (Mar 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Trust me, the salesreps will instantly convert to selling Points - where the Points come from make little difference.
> 
> Marriott controls what each unit's Point values are worth and Marriott has no obligation to make this a "fair" system - its a sales tool.  All the misinformation, exaggeration, slight of hand, and outright lies are perfect for this system.
> 
> ...



Perry, if this was such a homerun for the sales reps, how come Fletch left and sited the potential new system as one of the reasons?  Also, he said that a bunch of the top reps also left.  Since they work on commission, if this was such a great thing for them, Fletch and the others would not have left.


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## ondeadlin (Mar 28, 2010)

Perry's completely on the money, and it's amazing to me that anyone is willing to debate him about it.

I mean, it's such common sense. A point system allows salespersons to sell the concrete idea that if you have enough points, you can get ANY week. You don't have to worry about seasons or demand or having a good reservation - if Christmas in Park City or Maui is worth 500k points, all you need is 500k points to get it. That will be the push. Forget II and all the uncertainty that comes with it - if you have 500k points and the week is there, you get it. What could make more sense?

Now, of course, we know those weeks are sold fixed, and inventory will be extremely limited under any system, but the poor folks who go on the tour won't have ANY idea.

They'll buy those two weeks in Siberia, and then wonder why they can't spend Christmas in Maui.


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## m61376 (Mar 28, 2010)

But the big issue here, at least as I see it, will those folks who bought Christmas in Maui (using your example above) and who join the points system retain priority for booking that week. Will Plat. ski week owners, Caribbean week owners, etc., be able to book those high demand weeks before booking is opened to any owner pooling his/her points together.

If home resort priority is not retained, as Fletch suggested was going to happen, I would think the whole system will meet with a lot of resistance from those Platinum week owners.


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## tlwmkw (Mar 28, 2010)

Going by the survey that MVCI did last year (and you can look up parts of it that people posted on TUG) there will be a priority for those who own at the resort (much like DVC has).  You are right that they can sell it as if you can go anywhere "as long as you have the points" but they already do this with week to week transfers- it's just another way of looking at it.  The sales center at Surfwatch and Grande Vista both have pictures of all the other MVCI resorts and they tell you that you can trade your Silver dog week for any of them.  They will do the same thing except with points.

tlwmkw


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> Perry's completely on the money, and it's amazing to me that anyone is willing to debate him about it.
> 
> I mean, it's such common sense. A point system allows salespersons to sell the concrete idea that if you have enough points, you can get ANY week. You don't have to worry about seasons or demand or having a good reservation - if Christmas in Park City or Maui is worth 500k points, all you need is 500k points to get it. That will be the push. Forget II and all the uncertainty that comes with it - if you have 500k points and the week is there, you get it. What could make more sense?
> 
> ...



Perry is so far offline that it's no longer funny. 

I'll agree with very few things in his rambling rants and that is a points system allow salespersons to sell the idea that you can book the best weeks anywhere. As he puts it, sell the most popular weeks over and over again.

After that is where we part ways. While it's true the Hilton reps sell those top weeks in Hawaii even though the points they're really selling are in Vegas or Orlando, Vegas and Orlando owners CAN'T GET THOSE WEEKS until AFTER the owners in Hawaii have had their home resort advantage. 

Name me ONE points based internal program that doesn't have a home resort advantage? Even DRI's trust program gives trust owners a one month jump on everyone else in their regular points program to reserve what they want. After that, there's another two month reservation window before everything is opened up to where anyone in their internal system can grab it.

Why is Perry so up tight about timeshare salemen that lie? It's not like they're not lying right this very instant. As I'm typing this, I'd be willing to bet more than a dozen lies have been told to prospective buyers sitting at the round table. 

Perry's become a drama king. Marriott is going bankrupt, Marriott is getting desperate, Marriott probably clubs baby seals and harpons whales when we're not watching in Perry's mind. 

There are a lot of reasons for Marriott to go to a points based reservations system and some of those include selling advantages. So long as there are points inventory, they can sell. Marriott appears to be consolidating sales floors into certain geographic regions and allowing those sales staffs to sell any timeshare in the Marrott system. It will be easier for them to show the Marriott resort they're at (sell the prospect on that resort), then sell them points at another resort and tell the prospect their deed is at resort B but they can use those points to stay at resort A. I understand that. I've seen that. Every other timeshare company in the U.S. is currently selling timeshares this way. It's nothing new. Marriott isn't desperate so much as they're catching up with the rest of the industry. Unless there is no home resort advantage, which is something all the others continue to offer, there is no threat to being able to reserve a week in your season unless you a very late planner. For those with fixed weeks, which are generall the MOST popular weeks and sell for a premium, there is no risk at all. Marriott can not take that week away from those owners. 

Until anyone else actually see's what Marriott is offering, getting excited and getting dramatic is one of the dumbest things anyone can do IMHO. With all do respect Fletch was a Marriott saleman. While he's closer to the source I doubt he's that much closer to the truth. Sales floors run rampent with rumors that are often 10% truth buy 90% speculation. About the only thing I believe is that Marriott is considering catching up with the majority of the big names in the industry and will impliment some sort of new internal exchange program. 

I'll stick by my original projections. It seems to me that Perry has already back down from what I believe his initial prediction was going to be to join any new program. I'll have to look it up but I'm pretty certain just a few weeks ago he was predicting a $5,000 price tag to join but now predicts a $2,500 price tag to join. We still have a couple of more months left for Perry to change the rest of his predictions so that it looks as if he was spot on when something is finally introduced. As of now, I'm convinced that those opposed are insane from the fact they fear they won't be able to manipulate low value weeks to gain access to Marriott's high value weeks. I don't see this as anything more than fear over the unknown.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

m61376 said:


> But the big issue here, at least as I see it, will those folks who bought Christmas in Maui (using your example above) and who join the points system retain priority for booking that week. Will Plat. ski week owners, Caribbean week owners, etc., be able to book those high demand weeks before booking is opened to any owner pooling his/her points together.
> 
> If home resort priority is not retained, as Fletch suggested was going to happen, I would think the whole system will meet with a lot of resistance from those Platinum week owners.



If you bought a fixed week, Marriott can't take that away from you. I can see them enticing fixed week owners by offering them more points for their weeks. However, name me one points based exchange program that doesn't have a home resort advantage.

I'll give you one example of how one points based program handles fixed weeks and, I'll go out on a limb and predict that Marriott will handle it the same way. I own a fixed week, week 36, in Las Vegas (the resort sold all weeks as fixed weeks at the time). I joined the points based exchange program but, in order to receive my points for that week, I have to physically release that week to the system. Otherwise my reservation is made automatically for me, I receive a reservation number and I have that week booked in my name. For those with fixed weeks with Marriott like Christmas, NYE or Presidents week, I'm certain they'll have the same option if they even join any new points based system. Otherwise, I don't see very many of them turning loose of those prime weeks they paid a premium for.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 28, 2010)

One positive I can think of is this:  If you are in a point based system, even with home resort priority, there may be more inventory on hard to get weeks.  As an NCV week owner, I normally call in the summer one year ahead at 9:00 am.  If I want to try to go to a ski week, maybe I wont do that.  Or at least, maybe most MVC owners wont because the way the point system will be explained.  I probably would, just so I know I can get a week I want, then try to call back to Marriott to change resorts, thereby probably incurring a change charge.......


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

I stand corrected. Here are some of Perry's original predictions, which include his entry fee of $2,500 and not $5,000.



> My Crystal Ball says...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm headed down to the beach and I doubt this thread will uncover anything useful so let me recap my guess what Marriott/Wyndham will do:
> ...


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> One positive I can think of is this:  If you are in a point based system, even with home resort priority, there may be more inventory on hard to get weeks.  As an NCV week owner, I normally call in the summer one year ahead at 9:00 am.  If I want to try to go to a ski week, maybe I wont do that.  Or at least, maybe most MVC owners wont because the way the point system will be explained.  I probably would, just so I know I can get a week I want, then try to call back to Marriott to change resorts, thereby probably incurring a change charge.......




I know that I can get Hawaii weeks much easier with either Hilton or Diamond Resorts International than I can with Marriott. Reserving those weeks 9 or 10 months in advance makes getting the airfare set that much easier. Holiday weeks are still pretty tough, if not impossible to get unless you own at that resort. If you're an owner there, it's amazing how much easier it is to get the holiday weeks vs trying to call in at 06:00 and praying you get through in time. 

If I had to choose between a well designed points program and a weeks program, I'll take the points program most of the time. It just that much more flexible and, I bought our timeshares to vacation. I didn't buy them to use and then turn a profit, even a small profit, when I'm done with them. That's part of the mistake I think some people make. They believe they can always turn a profit and get something for nothing. The issue with that is when things change and upset the apple cart.


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## m61376 (Mar 28, 2010)

Doug- A lot of what you said makes sense, IF Marriott designs a program that is user friendly. I understand that the Asian market is different, but the design of the Asia Pacific points program, with the loss of home resort preference, as well as the way points were allotted, does give a sense of uncertainty, especially with the rumored loss of home resort priority that Fletch conveyed. That is the only concrete example of how Marriott has designed a points program, and it was likely, at least in part, considered as a test model for any overall program that they may roll out in the future.

Certainly, there are lots of ways Marriott might design a program that will eliminate many of the inequities in the current program and might prove beneficial for many owners (except, of course, owners like Perry who have gamed the system; I doubt Marriott will try to allow such beneficial usage to continue). The question is whether Marriott will create an equitable user friendly system, or create a system primarily designed as a sales assist.


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## kschauberger (Mar 28, 2010)

Somebody mentioned that you can't purchase a point based system in Hawaii.  I would have to remind you that Hilton is deeded but is a point based system.  I would predict that marriott will go the way of Hilton, where you have a deeded week, and not the way of Diamond where you could own 35 resorts in the US trust and not have a single place to call your home resort.  I can't see them going to the Club Intrawest style where it is just points and you are buying into a club only.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 28, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Doug- A lot of what you said makes sense, IF Marriott designs a program that is user friendly. I understand that the Asian market is different, but the design of the Asia Pacific points program, with the loss of home resort preference, as well as the way points were allotted, does give a sense of uncertainty, especially with the rumored loss of home resort priority that Fletch conveyed. That is the only concrete example of how Marriott has designed a points program, and it was likely, at least in part, considered as a test model for any overall program that they may roll out in the future.
> 
> Certainly, there are lots of ways Marriott might design a program that will eliminate many of the inequities in the current program and might prove beneficial for many owners (except, of course, owners like Perry who have gamed the system; I doubt Marriott will try to allow such beneficial usage to continue). The question is whether Marriott will create an equitable user friendly system, or create a system primarily designed as a sales assist.



Marriott could come out with a program like the AP program. The main reason I don't believe they will is that it would be to easy to just announce the program and start selling. This rumored internal exchange program is taking far to long in developement for me to believe they'll just transpose the AP program to the remainder of MVC. If they were going to do that, we'd already be discussing how the program was working (or not working) rather than speculating on what they might introduce. 

The only thing I can come up with as far as "loss of home resort priority" is that Marriott will introduce a trust based ownership. If that's the case, it's going to be very interesting in what they offer current members. Will they want us to give up our deeds and join a trust? Will they offer both a trust ownership and an internal points membership where you keep your deeded week and home resort advantage.

There are examples of trust based systems out there already. The one I'm certain of is the old Sunterra now Diamond resorts program. I believe that Bluegreen is also set up as a trust based ownership but, I'm not certain about that. 

The DRI trust system doesn't have a home resort. DRI seperates out their trust ownerships into a few different trusts, each with, I believe, 19 different resorts. When an owner buys into or joins the trust, they have home resort advantage in every resort in that particular trust. They can reserve at the 13 month mark similar to multiple week Marriott owners can do now. At the 10 month mark they can reserve any resort in the DRI system that's outside of their particular trust. 

So it's not really a home resort advantage in the sense as Marriott owners would understand it but, there is some degree of booking advantage available. 

Now I'm not anticipating that Marriott is going to adopt a program similar to DRI's. I'm only saying that there are programs out there to look at and those programs aren't nearly as scary as what some of us want to believe. Personally, I'm not a big fan of giving up my deed for an interest in a trust based ownership.

The one thing the Fletch said that got my attention was that there would be no home resort advantage. That has me thinking that Marriott is considering some sort of trust based ownership as part of this plan. But, rumors run rampent on the sales floor and I still hold to the advice of believing 10% of what you hear (read in this case). The 10% I believe is that there will be a change. 

Personally, I don't really care how it affects those that bought into the system strictly to game the system and get more than what they paid for. I have a silver season week and am perfectly content to use that week and exchange the studio LO via Interval International. We bought what we wanted to use rather than buying to exchange in a system. I learned early on that systems change and, when they change, what was once a good deal might not be so great in 5 or 10 years. 

At this point I don't believe in drama. There's nothing to be dramatic about. The drama will come soon enough if Marriott makes changes. Some will be happy, some will be indifferent and some will be unhappy. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that those who bought where they were happy owning will be either happy or indifferent. Those that bought to game the old system are going to be upset and make irrational statements.


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2010)

*It's a SALES Tool and NOT an Exchange System!*



kschauberger said:


> Somebody mentioned that you can't purchase a point based system in Hawaii.  I would have to remind you that Hilton is deeded but is a point based system.  I would predict that marriott will go the way of Hilton, where you have a deeded week, and not the way of Diamond where you could own 35 resorts in the US trust and not have a single place to call your home resort.  I can't see them going to the Club Intrawest style where it is just points and you are buying into a club only.



Hawaiian real estate law demands deeds be made to any real estate sold on Hawaiian soil.  WM sells Credits (Points) and is thus barred from selling Credits on Hawaii.  If Marriott or any other developer deeds the units and then converts usage into Points that's perfectly OK.

Part of the problem Marriott will have are seasons - Summit Watch is Platinum during ski season and Week 51 is a holiday week and so is Week 52 but they forgot about week 7 - President's week.  So if you are a SW Platinum owner you fight and claw to book that premium week.  Forget that since ALL Platinum weeks at SW will be all worth the same number of Points.

When you deposit your Platinum week you won't be able to lock it in - Marriott will take those weeks before Platinum season starts and at exactly .000001 second after reservations opens for a week Marriott will snap them up for their new exchange system.  Forget getting Week 7 at SW anymore.

Home advantage?  Marriott can define that anyway they want.  Probably some wimpy rule like:

"On odd Saturdays after a full moon your ownership at a resort will favor you if there should be a tie, to the .0001 of a second, your home advantage gets the reservation".

I think much of the confusion here and with the owners as a whole is the fact that the new scheme is an Internal Exchange System for Marriott Owners.  It is not, it is a SALES Tool for Marriott Salesreps.

I know all this because this is exactly how I would design such a sales tool for the salesreps.  I'd have the owners pay for it, fund it with their inventory, devastate the resale market, and make a boatload of money taking their usage away from them.  Of course I'd tell the owners that it's for their benefit when I could care less - it's a sales tool disguised as an exchange system.

Now no matter how bad I describe this system it will turn out to be a huge success - the same reason Marriott sells timeshares to Ma and Pa is why they will sell exchanging their ownership with other owners.  This will be a huge money maker for a struggling MVCI.

Can it stave off Marriott cutting it loose?  That's the real question and the reason MVCI keeps the rumor alive - they want to keep alive too.


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## scrapngen (Mar 29, 2010)

PerryM said:


> ...
> I think much of the confusion here and with the owners as a whole is the fact that the new scheme is an Internal Exchange System for Marriott Owners.  It is not, it is a SALES Tool for Marriott Salesreps.
> 
> I know all this because this is exactly how I would design such a sales tool for the salesreps.  I'd have the owners pay for it, fund it with their inventory, devastate the resale market, and make a boatload of money taking their usage away from them.  Of course I'd tell the owners that it's for their benefit when I could care less - it's a sales tool disguised as an exchange system.     ....
> ...


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## KathyPet (Mar 29, 2010)

I just do not understand what the fuss is all about,  I also think that Perry needs to take some Prozac or cut to decaf coffee.   I own a Platinum week at MMC, a gold week at MGO and will soon own a platinum week at MSK (resale).  With the exception of the MMC we bought in the season and location where we want to go and when we want to go.  Points system/no points system I really don't care.  Now if I had purchased a cheap week at a cheap resort and had been managing for years to "work the system" to get prime weeks at prime resorts with my cheap week I guess I would also be a bit upset but all good things must end.  Ranting and raving about something that we know no details in advance about is more than a little paranoid.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

KathyPet said:


> I just do not understand what the fuss is all about,  I also think that Perry needs to take some Prozac or cut to decaf coffee.   I own a Platinum week at MMC, a gold week at MGO and will soon own a platinum week at MSK (resale).  With the exception of the MMC we bought in the season and location where we want to go and when we want to go.  Points system/no points system I really don't care.  Now if I had purchased a cheap week at a cheap resort and had been managing for years to "work the system" to get prime weeks at prime resorts with my cheap week I guess I would also be a bit upset but all good things must end.  Ranting and raving about something that we know no details in advance about is more than a little paranoid.



Resale buyers are scared to death that Marriott has figured out a way to make MVC more beneficial to those that buy direct and less beneficial to those that buy resale. If that happens, then the Gold season Summit Watch week Perry owns will almost certainly lose resale value, may lose exchange value when considering Marriott to Marriott exchanges and is likely to cost him more but return him less for internal exchanges. 

This isn't about how good a points based internal exchange program might be for Marriott owners. This is about how resale buyers are afraid they'll be screwed by Marriott for buying resale. Perry's a resale buyer who's prided himself on out smarting the developers. All I can say is some days you get the bear. Some days the bear gets you. 

Those with low value weeks probably won't be happy. It will probably be tougher to trade up within the Marriott system. Those with high value weeks will probaly be the happiest as they'll get residual value when they trade down to lower demand weeks. Perry's week is a relatively low value week that's he's worked to trade into higher value weeks. That gravy train may be coming to an end. 

The timeshare exchange playing field changes all the time. That's why I advocate buying to own instead of buying to exchange. When you buy to exchange, any change in the playing field is likely to upset you. Thus, some of the rants you're reading. People are worried that they won't get more value for the week they own than it's worth.

I guess I should be in that catagory as well. I own a Silver season week that I lock off and trade the studio portion. I've almost always traded up. If Marriott goes to a points based system that accurately reflects the value of that Silver season week, trading up inside the Marriott system will probably be impossible. Even going from Silver season to Gold season in a studio unit might not be possible.

But, I still have I.I. for exchanges. If I don't like what Marriott offers, I'll stick with Interval for my exchange needs. I still know how to trade up through Interval as of this writing. I'll miss being able to trade up with Marriott but, it's not going to be a life ending event.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 29, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Resale buyers are scared to death that Marriott has figured out a way to make MVC more beneficial to those that buy direct and less beneficial to those that buy resale. If that happens, then the Gold season Summit Watch week Perry owns will almost certainly lose resale value, may lose exchange value when considering Marriott to Marriott exchanges and is likely to cost him more but return him less for internal exchanges.
> 
> I dont think the two statments go together so much. Some bought resale HI and this is not an issue (trading up).  Unless they charge current direct owners 0 and current resales owners 20k to get into the system, a few thousand is not much diifference.  If direct owners are not worried about about the effect of future resale prices, maybe they should also.  Although TS is not an investiment, it is nice that Marriotts (and Disney for that matter) have a strong resale value, for both resale and direct buyers.  It is nice that your TS has some value, even if (like me) you did not buy it as an investiment.  Would most buy a 50k timeshare knowing that the next day it would be worth $1 like most other TS?  Also, why does it have to do this at all?  What is wrong with the Disney model?
> 
> ...



What resorts will have a lower value?  Will Hilton Head plat have 70% of the value of HI?  Will a gold Aruba week have 40% of a HH?  Will NCV plat have 90% of Marco Island? I think most people will be surpised their value is not as good as they thought, except for HI, and plat islands.  This effects much more than people who rode the gravy train. I do agree with you in that I am not too worried until I see what actuallly happens, but it would change everything everyone has done with their Marriotts, only time will tell if anything happens. .


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## DanCali (Mar 29, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> This isn't about how good a points based internal exchange program might be for Marriott owners. This is about how resale buyers are afraid they'll be screwed by Marriott for buying resale. Perry's a resale buyer who's prided himself on out smarting the developers. All I can say is some days you get the bear. Some days the bear gets you.



If resale buyers are adversely affected, this obviously affects retail buyers and future retail buyers too. A decline in resale values hurts everyone and if enough owners are upset Marriott will not generate many new sales that make it past the recission period because TUG will be buzzing with negativity... IMO Marriott has no interest in destroying resale values and if they do they are dumber than I thought.


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## m61376 (Mar 29, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> What resorts will have a lower value?  Will Hilton Head plat have 70% of the value of HI?  Will a gold Aruba week have 40% of a HH?  Will NCV plat have 90% of Marco Island? I think most people will be surpised their value is not as good as they thought, except for HI, and plat islands.  This effects much more than people who rode the gravy train. I do agree with you in that I am not too worried until I see what actuallly happens, but it would change everything everyone has done with their Marriotts, only time will tell if anything happens. .



That's a good question- and I think that whether or not Marriott makes these assignments arbitrarily or based on some objective criteria will have a big bearing on whether the system is truly equitable, both now and in the future as new resorts are built. IF Marriott relates point assignment to the real market, it can simply use the pre-existing rack rental rates at the various properties  to set the point assignments. These are pre-existing relative scales based on market conditions (supply and demand), taking into account resort locations and features. If they base it, however, simply on a formula designed to entice buyers, then it becomes a sales gimmick rather than an equitable user friendly system. I hope they choose the former path and retain the same company quality we have all grown to appreciate and expect.

I agree that it affects more than those who were milking the system, so to speak. Platinum owners at resorts where the season is too long, who may get the average value of all the weeks in their season, for example, or Plat. owners at less desirable resorts, who have become accustomed to getting Plat. quality trades, may find themselves at an unexpected disadvantage. That's the problem with introducing a new system and superimposing it on a system where people are accustomed to certain benefits of ownership.


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## m61376 (Mar 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If resale buyers are adversely affected, this obviously affects retail buyers and future retail buyers too. A decline in resale values hurts everyone and if enough owners are upset Marriott will not generate many new sales that make it past the recission period because TUG will be buzzing with negativity... IMO Marriott has no interest in destroying resale values and if they do they are dumber than I thought.



I totally agree. And- don't forget that many resale buyers are also direct purchasers and all owners are potential future purchasers. Marriott should be careful not to try to alienate any group of owners- customer satisfaction goes a long way in ensuring corporate success.


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## PerryM (Mar 29, 2010)

*Coming and going....*



KathyPet said:


> I just do not understand what the fuss is all about,  I also think that Perry needs to take some Prozac or cut to decaf coffee.   I own a Platinum week at MMC, a gold week at MGO and will soon own a platinum week at MSK (resale).  With the exception of the MMC we bought in the season and location where we want to go and when we want to go.  Points system/no points system I really don't care.  Now if I had purchased a cheap week at a cheap resort and had been managing for years to "work the system" to get prime weeks at prime resorts with my cheap week I guess I would also be a bit upset but all good things must end.  Ranting and raving about something that we know no details in advance about is more than a little paranoid.



3 weeks * $2,500 = $7,500 * 2 = $15,000 out of pocket expense for Marriott's new sales gimmick.

If you decide to join the price will be 3 * $2,500 = $7,500.

When it comes time to sell the buyers will deduct the same amount, $7,500 since they will want to be included in the Points exchange system.

I guess folks don't care but this scheme but it will impact EVERY Marriott owner - EVERY ONE of you.

Don't take my word for it - just wait for it to hit and the resale market to drop.  There's nothing we can do about it but I can't wait for the "Why didn't someone warn us?" - That would be me....

P.S.

I'll state it again - Marriott is going to introduce a sales tool disguised as an internal exchange program that you, the Marriott owners, will pay dearly for - won't cost Marriott a penny and will be a fantastic sales tool.

The more owners think this is a "goody" from Uncle Marriott the better job they did disguising it.

P.P.S.
I'm dropping out of this thread since I need to make some money this week.  I'm sure this topic will be back when I've got a break any questions/stoning can continue then.

Until then - hope the weeks are profitable for you...


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If resale buyers are adversely affected, this obviously affects retail buyers and future retail buyers too. A decline in resale values hurts everyone and if enough owners are upset Marriott will not generate many new sales that make it past the recission period because TUG will be buzzing with negativity... IMO Marriott has no interest in destroying resale values and if they do they are dumber than I thought.



I don't see it that way. How many times do we preach on TUG that timeshares don't have a resale value? How many times do we read that ROFR artificially props up resale values? If you buy it from a developer, the day after the rescind period has passed, the value of that week of timeshare goes down to nearly $1. 

No one should ever buy a timeshare with the expectation of anything other than using it to take vacations. If you buy with the expectation that you'll be able to sell it for any reasonable amount of money you're only fooling yourself. 

Since we purchased our timeshares for vacation purposes and not with any expectation of a cash return, resale value has no effect on us. Because timeshare isn't sold as an investment, it shouldn't have any effect on anyone. Those who buy with the expectation of receiving anything other than vacation time have been fooling themselves into believing that there is a cash value to their ownership. 

I guess there are those who are just now learning this fact of timeshare life. What might be worth $1,000 today could be worth $1 tomorrow. Resale values started to fall as soon as Marriott stopped propping them up with ROFR buybacks. That should tell you the real cash value of Marriott weeks.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

PerryM said:


> 3 weeks * $2,500 = $7,500 * 2 = $15,000 out of pocket expense for Marriott's new sales gimmick.
> 
> If you decide to join the price will be 3 * $2,500 = $7,500.
> 
> ...



You're quoting as fact something you have no way of knowing if it's even close to accurate.

First, you don't know what Marriott is going to charge. Why $2,500? Is that just where you would put it or is there some basis for this figure.

How do you know they'll charge for each individual week? It that just something you would do? Maybe Marriott will include all the weeks you own at a set price. 

While it will have an affect. I doubt very seriously it's going to have the effect you continue to cry about. 

Right now seems to be a good time to remember the story about Chicken Little crying the sky is falling. So you guessed wrong for a second time (I'm counting your Westgate developer purchase as one). You thought you'd buy cheap, trade big and sell for either a small profit or break even. You held on to long and now ROFR is gone and Marriott may be changing the rules of the game and it might hurt your resale further. Join the crowd.

Who said this is going to be a "goody" from Uncle Marriott? Some of us just want to see what's offered before we condem it as universaly bad for Marriott owners. Guessing isn't the same as knowing. Until Marriott releases the information to us, we really don't know how it will affect exchanges and/or resale values.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I totally agree. And- don't forget that many resale buyers are also direct purchasers and all owners are potential future purchasers. Marriott should be careful not to try to alienate any group of owners- customer satisfaction goes a long way in ensuring corporate success.



Somewhere the numbers were posted on the percentage of resale buyers. I believe it was a rather insignificant number. It's very possible that on TUG the percentage is higher as a group simply because of the type of member TUG attracts. That being those who actually are seeking knowledge about their timeshare. 

At work, there are several timeshare owners. Most aren't really clued into how timeshare works, are satisfied returning to their home resort or arranging a trade through RCI or Interval and can't be bothered to buy resale weeks. I've talked with 3 co-workers about not buying from the developer. All three purchased from the developer. Only one rescinded when I showed her the prices on other sites like Redweek, TUG and E-bay. The other two are multiple week owners, all developer purchased and are happy as a clam. 

Don't make the mistake of equating TUG knowledge and opinions with the typical timeshare owner. I'm afraid you might be disappointed.


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## KathyPet (Mar 29, 2010)

But I Don't care. I bought the season I want and the location I want.  i am not interested in selling.  Our units will be left to our only child.  Whatever she does with them or whatever she gets for them if she sells I will be long past caring.  As long as I can vacation at my resort in the season I want while I am still alive the rest is up to the fates.  We can vacation anytime in our seasons since I am retired and dh is self employed.  I don't have to have a Christmas or New Year's Week.  Not interested in trading to Hawaii .  Much too long a trip from the East Coast.   Again I fail to see what the fuss is all about.    It's not a investment.  It's a vacation.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> What resorts will have a lower value?  Will Hilton Head plat have 70% of the value of HI?  Will a gold Aruba week have 40% of a HH?  Will NCV plat have 90% of Marco Island? I think most people will be surpised their value is not as good as they thought, except for HI, and plat islands.  This effects much more than people who rode the gravy train. I do agree with you in that I am not too worried until I see what actuallly happens, but it would change everything everyone has done with their Marriotts, only time will tell if anything happens. .



I wish I knew how Marriott was planning on assigning values. The only thing I feel certain would be that the lower seasons of Bronze and Silver will have lower point totals than Platinum Plus and Platinum. As to how Marriott will value each resort, I don't even want to venture a guess. 

Those values will determine if it's worth my time to join or if I'll stick with what I own. That's also the problem Marriott faces in assigning values. To low and no one will join. It will have to be reasonably equitable or it won't work. There will have to be value across the board or, only those that own units with value in Marriott eyes will join, potentially leaving some resorts with very few points based members for inventory in the new system.

It's a very complicated thing to hammer out. Is it any wonder that it's taking Marriott such a long time to come out with the program. I'm hoping this is a sign that they'll get it right rather than rush it to the alter and hope it works itself out.

And yes, it affects us all. Things are going to change. I'm still not throwing myself under the bus until I can see the real deal and not the rantings of half crazed owners worried that the end is near.


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## Latravel (Mar 29, 2010)

KathyPet said:


> But I Don't care. ...Again I fail to see what the fuss is all about.    It's not a investment.  It's a vacation.



I couldn't agree with you more.  Timeshares are not investments so you should not worry about resale value.  If you care this much, you should never have spent a penny on something so frivolous.   You will never win any argument since it is stated in your purchase documents and it's common knowledge that timeshares are vacations, not investments.  It couldn't be clearer.  If someone still tries to argue timeshares are investments, not to be disrespectful, but they are out of touch of reality.


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## Latravel (Mar 29, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I totally agree. And- don't forget that many resale buyers are also direct purchasers and all owners are potential future purchasers. Marriott should be careful not to try to alienate any group of owners- customer satisfaction goes a long way in ensuring corporate success.



I truly believe that Marriott is putting more emphasis right now on generating income versus keeping resale buyers happy.  I'm sure they have conducted studies that show the rate at which resale buyers eventually purchase direct.  I would bet it is very low (<1%) so it's not a group they want to target.  

Even for me, as a direct purchaser of multiple platinum weeks, I don't expect this new system to be free unless I purchase another platinum week direct.  It's all about the profit.


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## m61376 (Mar 29, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Somewhere the numbers were posted on the percentage of resale buyers. I believe it was a rather insignificant number. It's very possible that on TUG the percentage is higher as a group simply because of the type of member TUG attracts. That being those who actually are seeking knowledge about their timeshare.
> 
> At work, there are several timeshare owners. Most aren't really clued into how timeshare works, are satisfied returning to their home resort or arranging a trade through RCI or Interval and can't be bothered to buy resale weeks. I've talked with 3 co-workers about not buying from the developer. All three purchased from the developer. Only one rescinded when I showed her the prices on other sites like Redweek, TUG and E-bay. The other two are multiple week owners, all developer purchased and are happy as a clam.
> 
> If you buy it from a developer, the day after the rescind period has passed, the value of that week of timeshare goes down to nearly $1.



I certainly realize that Tuggers are far from average. And you are right- about 7% of owned weeks are resale weeks. However, given that many, if not most, resale owners own one or more developer purchased weeks, I would guess that at least 10% of owners own at least one resale week (of course, that's only a guess). I don't think 10% (or perhaps higher) of any consumer group is insignificant, and that's why I personally think they are an important consideration. I don't think it is any company's best interests to simply dismiss any customer base.

I also don't agree with Heidi's contention that less than 1% of resale buyers buy directly in the future. I know many of us have said that they would consider buying direct if the location and price/purchase incentives were right. I don't think you can make such a supposition. Of course, I don't feel that's their target audience- but I do think their main objective will be to get as many current owners on board as quickly as possible, to get the ball rolling.



dougp26364 said:


> No one should ever buy a timeshare with the expectation of anything other than using it to take vacations. If you buy with the expectation that you'll be able to sell it for any reasonable amount of money you're only fooling yourself.
> 
> Since we purchased our timeshares for vacation purposes and not with any expectation of a cash return, resale value has no effect on us. Because timeshare isn't sold as an investment, it shouldn't have any effect on anyone. Those who buy with the expectation of receiving anything other than vacation time have been fooling themselves into believing that there is a cash value to their ownership.
> Don't make the mistake of equating TUG knowledge and opinions with the typical timeshare owner. I'm afraid you might be disappointed.



I also don't agree that everyone should buy a timeshare expecting zero residual value. No, they are not an investment, but I reckon Marriott would have a pretty empty sales office if people bought with the expectation that there would be zero residual value. In fact, most of the "is buying worth it" calculations include the residual (resale) value. While I think Perry is being over-dramatic, I think the point that negatively impacting resale values can have a negative overall affect on sales in general (even developer sales). Keep in mind that Tug membership and viewing has been growing; more and more people are Internet savvy and, at this point in time, 90-95% of home buyers look to the Internet first. It won't be long before timeshare buyers catch up. No one wants to shell out tens of thousand of dollars and feel that they will have little to no value left. 

Although you may look at it this way, I am guess that many, if not most, owners of higher cost weeks expect their ownership to retain some monetary value.


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## heathpack (Mar 29, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> No one should ever buy a timeshare with the expectation of anything other than using it to take vacations. If you buy with the expectation that you'll be able to sell it for any reasonable amount of money you're only fooling yourself.



I would also strongly disagree with this statement.  I think buying a timeshare like buying a car.  Its a depreciating asset that I will probably use until the end of its functional life.  However, I am aware that my circumstances could change- my spouse could die, I could lose my job- and as a result I might want to sell that car at some point.  I don't expect to have any value left in my car when I am done with it in 10 or 12 years, but just in case I want to sell before then, I'll always pick the product with the best likelihood of holding some value (say) 5 years from now.

If a car salesperson tried to sell me a car and told me "expect this car to have zero resale value in 5 years"-- well, I'd walk out of his dealership and go buy a Civic.

Decent resale value helps drive direct sales.  TS salespeople seem to feel that they've got to really hurt the resale market in order to succeed.  But I would argue that the timeshares systems that will prove easiest to sell retail are the ones that have the best resale value (and also the ones that are easiest to rent, but that's a different issue).

Any TS company who decides to crush resale value will be shooting it's self in the foot in a very big way, IMHO.

H


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## ondeadlin (Mar 29, 2010)

Just curious, what proof do we have that only 7 percent of Marriott owners bought resale?


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 29, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I couldn't agree with you more.  Timeshares are not investments so you should not worry about resale value.  If you care this much, you should never have spent a penny on something so frivolous.   You will never win any argument since it is stated in your purchase documents and it's common knowledge that timeshares are vacations, not investments.  It couldn't be clearer.  If someone still tries to argue timeshares are investments, not to be disrespectful, but they are out of touch of reality.





heathpack said:


> I would also strongly disagree with this statement.  I think buying a timeshare like buying a car.  Its a depreciating asset that I will probably use until the end of its functional life.  However, I am aware that my circumstances could change- my spouse could die, I could lose my job- and as a result I might want to sell that car at some point.  I don't expect to have any value left in my car when I am done with it in 10 or 12 years, but just in case I want to sell before then, I'll always pick the product with the best likelihood of holding some value (say) 5 years from now.
> 
> If a car salesperson tried to sell me a car and told me "expect this car to have zero resale value in 5 years"-- well, I'd walk out of his dealership and go buy a Civic.
> 
> ...



Boy... We've been down this road before..... But I can't help siding all-the-way with heathpack...  I simply think that the second statement is more in touch with reality...
(I'm not saying that timeshares are investments, nor that one should expect a some ROI...)


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## Latravel (Mar 29, 2010)

It really doesn't matter what any one of us thinks.  We should look at the purchase documents as objective fact and guidance instead of stating personal opinions or beliefs.  

I know I had to sign and initial documents that clearly stated timeshares are not investments but vacations.  My husband and I had to initial besides this point.  The Finance Manager reiterated this point, after the presentation, of course.

So, I could go on and on about how I believe my timeshare is an investment but the documents state otherwise.  I understand that when you purchase resale, there may not be any emphasis on this fact but it's in your documents.  What you want, wish or hope to believe is another story.

Despite saying this, I do hope for something when I sell but I don't expect it since part of the purchase agreement states it's not promised and I accepted this fact when I purchased.


Tom-
_"...I simply think that the second statement is more in touch with reality..."_
What do you base this on?   Maybe you have some sort of documentation that I don't?


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## James1975NY (Mar 29, 2010)

Latravel said:


> So despite all the documents you signed that clearly told you and disclosed that timeshares are not investments, and are, in fact, only vacations, you still believe this purchase is an investment of some sort?
> 
> This is not an opinion or a personal belief.  This is a documented fact that all people must initial when you first buy the timeshare from Marriott.  Even the Finance Manager reiterates this fact after purchase (of course).
> 
> ...



I think what it is, is the fact that a sales pitch often discusses the idea that renting means that all you have to keep is receipts and that you do not "own" anything, whereas purchasing a timeshare means that you are purchasing property that can be sold.

I feel confident to say that people in general would not ever imagine that a timeshare they purchased would have been available to them for 25% +/- of what they just signed up for. This is a basic understanding of real estate across the board. Its one thing for the value of real estate to fluctuate but I think timeshares are unique in that the drastic price difference is solely based on the means to which you purchase. I dont know of any residential or commercial real estate opportunities where if I buy from one seller, I may end up paying 3-4 times what I could have paid for through another avenue for the same product. So, if the Timeshare Buyer was not aware of what resale pricing is today (and many dont), the thought of the cost being so different would not occur to them.

Absolutely, a disclosure form is signed and the topic is breezed through. What if the disclosure said "I realize there may be an opportunity to purchase this same timeshare plan for 25% of the developer price, but I am choosing to purchase directly from Marriott."


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## SueDonJ (Mar 29, 2010)

What I really don't understand is why it's so difficult for a resale buyer to understand that there isn't any guaranteed value in a Marriott purchase, when they've taken advantage of that very fact by already purchasing at a reduced rate compared to Marriott's developer prices.  It's like you're saying now, "it was okay for you to let prices depreciate to where I could get a deal as a buyer, but it's not okay if you hurt me as a seller."  Where is the logic?

Besides which, why are we back at the "ACK!! ZERO VALUE!!" dead end?  Who said anything about zero value?  Saying that Marriott isn't required to protect investment dollars and hasn't historically propped up the resale market, is not at all the same thing as saying that a developer purchase has zero value.  Say Marriott charges $500 or $2500 for a resale week to join a new internal exchange points system, then what Perry says is true that the value of every week on the resale market may depreciate by that much, sure.  But that doesn't result in ZERO value, and it's a drop in the bucket compared to the differential that exists today between developer and resale weeks.

I'm just not understanding why resale purchasers want us developer purchasers to join their new "oh woe is us, Marriott might devalue our purchase by not propping up resale values" pity party.  Hey, take your shoes off, grab a drink and come on in - some of us have been at this party for years.  And believe it or not, we've been having a good time.


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## DanCali (Mar 29, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I couldn't agree with you more.  Timeshares are not investments so you should not worry about resale value.  If you care this much, you should never have spent a penny on something so frivolous.   You will never win any argument since it is stated in your purchase documents and it's common knowledge that timeshares are vacations, not investments.  It couldn't be clearer.  If someone still tries to argue timeshares are investments, not to be disrespectful, but they are out of touch of reality.



I'm curious how you can assume that timeshares will have zero residual value, still buy three retail weeks, and yet assume that this would save you money over rentals (I'm assuming you didn't spend all that money assuming you'd come out behind rental costs)?


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I certainly realize that Tuggers are far from average. And you are right- about 7% of owned weeks are resale weeks. However, given that many, if not most, resale owners own one or more developer purchased weeks, I would guess that at least 10% of owners own at least one resale week (of course, that's only a guess). I don't think 10% (or perhaps higher) of any consumer group is insignificant, and that's why I personally think they are an important consideration. I don't think it is any company's best interests to simply dismiss any customer base.
> 
> I also don't agree with Heidi's contention that less than 1% of resale buyers buy directly in the future. I know many of us have said that they would consider buying direct if the location and price/purchase incentives were right. I don't think you can make such a supposition. Of course, I don't feel that's their target audience- but I do think their main objective will be to get as many current owners on board as quickly as possible, to get the ball rolling.
> 
> ...



The trick is, it doesn't really matter what we believe, what we want to think or what we feel the numbers are. Marriott already has all that information and their information is accurate. What we might want to believe is very likely not reality.

I think this entire conversation and all the anxiety over what these changes might mean are clear indicators that buying a timeshare and expecting residual value somewhere down the road is a foolish thing to do. With timeshare ownership you eventually learn that you don't really have a lot of control. Even when you control the HOA, there are still so many variables you don't control. Need proof? Look at the mess that is RCI with weeks, points and rentals. 

Buy something your happy with, expect there will be signigicant changes within 10 years and hold no expectations of a return on your money other than the vacation experience and timeshare ownership if right for you. While we might get all excited and upset about what Marriott might or might no do, the reality is whatever they do, we don't control. It will affect us all in both positive and negative ways. It's a new tune and a new dance. If changes happen, we'll all have to make decisions about what works and what doesn't. The decision about whether Marriott is out of their minds, resale values et.....is out of our control and not worth the anxiety some have over it.


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## m61376 (Mar 29, 2010)

In financial terms, investments are the purchase of an item of value with the expectation of a favorable future return; they are the use of money in order to make more money. Timeshares are not investments- they should not be purchased with the expectation of making a profit.

However, that does not mean that a purchaser should not ordinarily expect them to retain some value. Marriott's paperwork does indicate that they are not investments, and therefore insulates itself from any legal recourse should the property lose some or even full value. In reality, most financial investments will have similar language. That doesn't mean the purchaser shouldn't have the expectation of some retention of value.

As pointed out above, everyone knows cars depreciate over time. In fact, there is a finite useful life, because cars are, after all, machinery. Would you buy a car for 30,40, 50K or more if it had zero value a week later? I doubt many here would. Since timeshares are property and we pay on-going MF's to prevent deterioration, the natural assumption is that they will have inherent value, and I don't think people are unrealistic to expect this.

Of course, it goes without saying that the primary reason to purchase is for usage. Like Doug, I bought weeks I enjoy using, but I do find this whole discussion interesting- especially different people's perspectives. I'm not asking, nor expecting, anyone to join a "woe be me, pity party," as Sue suggests some resale buyers might be doing. I'm happy with my purchases, regardless of what transpires down the road. I just honestly feel that Marriott will be shooting itself in the foot, so to speak if they turn resale buyers into outcasts, which is why i don't think they will, either now or in the future. I do feel that there is a strong possibility that especially future resales will be impacted, and do feel that it may negatively impact the brand overall (and that is bad for every owner, regardless of how they initially purchased). As more people research before buying, there may be more hesitancy to make a purchase if the retained value is markedly impacted. And I do think more people will research purchases over time, because it is the natural effect of Internet access. More people travel with laptops or other web access devices than they did even a year or two ago, and over time that will change the marketplace.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm curious how you can assume that timeshares will have zero residual value, still buy three retail weeks, and yet assume that this would save you money over rentals (I'm assuming you didn't spend all that money assuming you'd come out behind rental costs)?



I can't answer for anyone else buy myself. 

I personally don't buy a timeshare to save money. I buy it for the vacation experience of staying in a condo and not a hotel room. I have no expectations of residual value past the value of the vacations we enjoy. Essentially, we didn't buy a timeshare ever expecting any kind of monetary return.

Now let me ask you this. With all the changes that take place, why would anyone try to rationalize a timeshare purchase as anything other than a consumer purchase? Why would anyone with a reasonable sense of investment look at timeshare as a money savings tool or expect to break even or make a profit?

While history has shown that reale estate generally gains value of the years, the advice about buying a timeshare is exactly the opposite. No one on these forums equates buying timeshare to buying real estate. They equate it to buying a new car. And yet there are people who are not just expecting but demanding there will be a cash return on their investment.  

As this entire thread points out, expecting a cash return on timeshare ownership is highly speculative and subject to many things out of our control. Today the real estate market is down. Does anyone believe real estate is still a bad investment and that real estate is a horrible investment for the future? What would you say about timeshares? Are they a good cash investment for the future? There's a reason why timeshare developers are prohibited from selling timeshares as real estate investments.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm curious how you can assume that timeshares will have zero residual value, still buy three retail weeks, and yet assume that this would save you money over rentals (I'm assuming you didn't spend all that money assuming you'd come out behind rental costs)?



I'm sure Heidi will be in here to answer this, but I'm in the same boat she is and thought you might want another opinion.

Why do you assume at all that there HAS to be a cost-saving reason for anyone to purchase developer-direct?  It's true, if you have the exact same two weeks available, one from the developer and one on the resale market at thousands less, then cost-saving is a major consideration.

In our case, though, the exact unit/week configurations that we wanted were not available on the resale market for a significant savings.  One week wasn't available at all, one was priced more than developer pricing (I know, I know) and the last might have become available at some point in the next twelve months at $2K less on the resale market but we waited three and Marriott came up with the inventory first.  Rental prices had nothing to do with any of our purchases.  The only consideration that we gave to rental prices was that our chances of getting the specific resort/unit configuration that we wanted each and every year would be greater if we bought rather than relied on the rental market.


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## Latravel (Mar 29, 2010)

Firstly, I don't assume my units have zero residual value.  I'm pretty sure i'll get something back if I sell.  In fact, my Tahoe prime ski weeks should get me a lot back.  I just don't have any feelings of entitlement or expectation regarding how much. 

Secondly, we purchased directly from Marriott (we now have 4 platinum weeks) because we wanted to be part of the complete Marriott system, meaning, we saw the value of points- hence why we purchased from a large hotel system.  At the time we purchased, Marriott was giving lots of incentive points.  We applied the cost of those vacations that we purchased with points towards our puchase price and we calculated that by the time we use up all our points for vacations (over 1mil) our timeshares would have cost us very little.  Keep in mind, my family likes to travel.  We would have traveled to these places without Marriott points and we would have traveled in the same standard so points were a money saver to us.

Yes, we did know about the resale market and were/are not interested.  With resale purchases, it may be cheaper to rent.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 29, 2010)

m61376 said:


> In financial terms, investments are the purchase of an item of value with the expectation of a favorable future return; they are the use of money in order to make more money. Timeshares are not investments- they should not be purchased with the expectation of making a profit.
> 
> However, that does not mean that a purchaser should not ordinarily expect them to retain some value. Marriott's paperwork does indicate that they are not investments, and therefore insulates itself from any legal recourse should the property lose some or even full value. In reality, most financial investments will have similar language. That doesn't mean the purchaser shouldn't have the expectation of some retention of value.
> 
> ...




Eventually, a car does have zero value and, a car quite often has a shorter useful life than a timeshare, and a car has maintenance fee's. I've had a few cars that had less than zero value. When they died, I had to pay a junk yard to take them off my hands. 

So yes, people do pay several thousands of dollars for a car expecting less from it than they paid. Unlike timeshares, cars do maintain some residual value and are not worth $1 10 days after being purchased. However, that's what a timeshare will do. Read some of the posts under buying and selling. Go to E-bay. Read the TUG advice about selling your timeshare. Try to claim a timeshare sale loss on your taxe returns. Every piece of advice we give out here it to buy resale. Why? Because timeshares have such little residual value that they can be purchased for pennies on the dollar.

We can't have it both ways. Buy resale because the retail price is way over inflated from the actual value. Maintain residual value because there should be some value to owners when they're done with it. Sorry but we're talking out of both sides of our mouth here and the side is dependent upon how it affects us today. 

Rule #1: Timeshares have no resale value
Rule #2: Buy resale because timeshares have no resale value
Rule #3: Understand rules #1 and #2 when you buy and you won't be disappointed when you find out your timeshare has no resale value.

How much you spend to buy your timeshare defines how much you will potentially lose when you sell it. You can pay developer pricing or, you can pay resale pricing but, you're still more likely to lose money than break even.


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## davidvel (Mar 29, 2010)

As long as your resort's HOA and its manager (Marriott) conforms to your association's governing documents, there is nothing really to complain about with any "new system," whetehr you are a direct or resale buyer.

(But it sure is fun anyway...  )


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## m61376 (Mar 29, 2010)

Doug- There is a difference between less value and no value. A developer purchaser should expect that the inherent value will be a lot less a week after purchasing. The resale buyer should be able to expect the inherent value to be about the same a week later, since they paid market value (assuming they shopped around). So you can buy resale (or direct) and still expect some retained value. Of course, just as with any real estate, unless you have a crystal ball there is no telling how value will fluctuate in the future. With timeshares, it is more realistic to expect a slow decline over time, but not to expect prices to plummet because of newly announced Marirott regulations. 

I am not saying that's what will happen, but understand the concern.


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 29, 2010)

Latravel said:


> It really doesn't matter what any one of us thinks.  We should look at the purchase documents as objective fact and guidance *instead of stating personal opinions or beliefs*.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


I thought it would be clear since I started with "I simply think..." that it was a personal opinion...   I hope that is still allowed here on this board


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## Latravel (Mar 29, 2010)

FlyerBobcat said:


> I thought it would be clear since I started with "I simply think..." that it was a personal opinion...   I hope that is still allowed here on this board



Yes, it was clear and that's my question.  What do you base it on since you mentioned relying on the facts in the purchasing documents is _not in touch with reality_? 

Is it ties with people "in the know" with Marriott?  What is it that supercedes our purchasing documents?


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## dougp26364 (Mar 30, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Firstly, I don't assume my units have zero residual value.  I'm pretty sure i'll get something back if I sell.  In fact, my Tahoe prime ski weeks should get me a lot back.  I just don't have any feelings of entitlement or expectation regarding how much.
> 
> Secondly, we purchased directly from Marriott (we now have 4 platinum weeks) because we wanted to be part of the complete Marriott system, meaning, we saw the value of points- hence why we purchased from a large hotel system.  At the time we purchased, Marriott was giving lots of incentive points.  We applied the cost of those vacations that we purchased with points towards our puchase price and we calculated that by the time we use up all our points for vacations (over 1mil) our timeshares would have cost us very little.  Keep in mind, my family likes to travel.  We would have traveled to these places without Marriott points and we would have traveled in the same standard so points were a money saver to us.
> 
> Yes, we did know about the resale market and were/are not interested.  With resale purchases, it may be cheaper to rent.




I'm not so certain that you're assumption that your prime ski weeks will get you a lot back if/when you decide to sell. I guess it depends on what you consider a lot back. 

Since I'm not really well versed in resale values for Tahoe, I honestly can't say that my opinion that you may be over valuing your ownership in terms of potential cash value. As a general rule, the advice of buy resale is predicated on the fact that the typical timeshare has far less value than if it was purchased from the developer. 

Before the economic collapse, Marriott exercised ROFR on most of it's properties. This was a good deal for Marriott and a good deal for those wanting to sell their weeks. It was good for Marriott because they could increase inventory without the expense of developing from the ground up. It was good for those selling because it helped prop up resale prices for those who really wanted a Marriott timeshare but didn't want to pay developer pricing. It wasn't a good deal for those wanting to buy resale because the price was artifically inflated by Marriott's ability to step in and take the sale, thus you had to bid high enough it wasn't profitable for Marriott to exercise ROFR. 

At this point, your resale value could be considerably lower than it was just 2 or 3 years ago simply because Marriott changed it's stance on aquiring additional inventory in this manner. 

It's my opinion that one should never anticipate or assume their timeshare will have any cash value after you buy it. With a timeshare, even though you might have a deed, all you really own is the right to use the space inside a unit in perpetuity. You don't own the land, the furniture, the fixtures or any of the amenities. All your really own is the right to use the property for a specified time period or.....you really own just air.


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## Latravel (Mar 30, 2010)

If I get anything back, I consider myself ahead.  Because of my purchase documents, in my mind, i'm very clear in my expectations regarding my timeshares.  It makes all these proposed changes very stress free.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 30, 2010)

Latravel said:


> If I get anything back, I consider myself ahead.  Because of my purchase documents, in my mind, i'm very clear in my expectations regarding my timeshares.  It makes all these proposed changes very stress free.



That's pretty much why it's not bothering me. That and the fact there hasn't been an announcment outlining changes. We bought our Marriott properties to use without the expectation we'd be selling them anything in the near future. One we've owned since 2001 and still love going there every year. It's our year end relaxation vacation on the beach. 

The only concern I have is pretty simple. If they change the exchange landscape, how can I best utlize the Marriott timeshares I own. Right now we've been exchanging a silver season studio, we have a one bedroom lock-off unit that we had planned on exchanging every year and, for the last two years, we used out two bedroom master suite at MGC to make request first exchanges into resorts we thought might be a tough exchange under the current system (we were perfectly fine going to MGC if the exchange didn't come through). 

If Marriott does go to a points based system we'll have to look it over to decide if it works for us or not. If it doesn't, there's the consideration of the exchange value within Interval for units that might not be Marriott units. On the other hand, I've always considered the studio silver season week a throw away unit. If I spot a great trade, I take it. If not I don't worry about it. Maybe in a points based system it would provide enough points that could be combined with our 1 bedroom unit that would make trading that unit up super easy rather than deposit and hope. If the system give me what I need, it could be a good thing for me.

Despite what some have posted, those that use the system for vacations without concern about residual value can find advantages with a points based system. If you're worried about selling the timeshare you own, sure it can damage resale value by making resales units less attractive. But who buys a timeshare with the intention of selling it? Those that do are learning the mistake they've made and that's the assumption the playing field will remain unchanged. 

There are a few on these forums that talk about making money buying cheap and renting for profit, buying cheap to exchange into greater value properties or, buying cheap to use the property then selling it at break even or for a slight profit. We'll the landscape is changing yet again and plans made previously might be just about to go up in smoke. Like any commidity, hold onto it to long and you can lose your shirt. Timeshare is a dangerous commidity to attempt to turn any sort of profit. It's best served when purchased strictly to take vacations and even better when you own a resort in a season you truely enjoy.


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## DanCali (Mar 30, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Now let me ask you this. With all the changes that take place, why would anyone try to rationalize a timeshare purchase as anything other than a consumer purchase? Why would anyone with a reasonable sense of investment look at timeshare as a money savings tool or expect to break even or make a profit?
> 
> While history has shown that reale estate generally gains value of the years, the advice about buying a timeshare is exactly the opposite. No one on these forums equates buying timeshare to buying real estate. They equate it to buying a new car. And yet there are people who are not just expecting but demanding there will be a cash return on their investment.
> 
> As this entire thread points out, expecting a cash return on timeshare ownership is highly speculative and subject to many things out of our control. Today the real estate market is down. Does anyone believe real estate is still a bad investment and that real estate is a horrible investment for the future? What would you say about timeshares? Are they a good cash investment for the future? There's a reason why timeshare developers are prohibited from selling timeshares as real estate investments.



I think you missed my point. I am not saying it is about getting an actual cash return in the form of appreciating resale value. I am saying that I expect the timeshare purchase to save money over rental costs after taking into account (i) opportunity costs of the initial purchase, (ii) MFs, and (iii) depreciation in value.

In my eyes, because a retail purchase has a higher opportunity costs (larger upfront cost) and depreciates 50%-80% seven to ten days after you buy it, it is almost impossible to come out ahead versus renting. A $30K developer purchase has an opportunity cost of about $1500 (at 5%) and depreciates about $20K almost immediately ($1000 a year over 20 years). Add to that MFs of about $1000 and the annual costs over the next 20 years is $3500 (assumning no more depreciation and no MF increases). It's pretty hard to come out ahead versus renting at this cost...

With a resale purchase, the math looks better because of lower opportunity costs and slower depreciation. Note that I am still talking about depreciation and not appreciation, but I still expect to come out ahead versus renting. Just like the car purchase, this is about the old lease versus buy decision... If the slow depreciation assumption in a resale purchase is flawed, one is just better off always renting (and still enjoying the benefits of vacationing in a timeshare).


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## Latravel (Mar 30, 2010)

I think you're missing the benefits you get from points in your equation (and I love equations!).  For example, I purchased a unit at Shadow Ridge for $27K.  I got enough incentive points to purchase a 2 week trip to Italy worth about $16K (2 1st class tickets LA to Rome, 7 nts at the Grand Flora, 7nts at the JW Capri).  I still have points left over.  Now my purchase at Shadow Ridge costed $11K (27K-16K).  

In addition, if I trade my unit for points 2 years in a row (plus the points I have left over from my incentive points), I can get enough points for another 1st class vacation for a week just for the cost of 2 maintenance fees of about $2000.  The cost of that vacation is around $9K so now the cost savings of $7000 (9K-2K) is applied against the cost of my unit at 11K - 7K.  So now, my Shadow Ridge unit cost me $4,000.  So on and so on.

That's how my husband and I can justify a developer purchase.

On the other hand, if one buys resale, there is nothing I can apply to the initial purchase price so you really have to get a low initial resale price to come out ahead of renting.


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## m61376 (Mar 30, 2010)

Heidi- Your point is valid- however, you have to factor in the additional expense of the lost opportunity cost on the extra 15 or 20K that the developer purchase ran you. So your real cost would be another $750 to $1000/year (assuming a 5% rate of return), whether or not you use or trade your unit in for points, ad infinitum. That has to be included if you want to compare apples to apples in your equation.

However, I do agree that when developer prices were less (as they were 5-10 years ago and at initial pre-construction pricing of many of the resorts), purchase incentives were in the area of double of the more recent offerings, MF's were, in many cases, $250 to perhaps $500 less per year, and prior to the point devaluations, that justification added more to the equation than in today's climate, with much higher up front costs, higher on-going costs (MF's), lower up front incentives and less value for your trades (more points for smaller packages). Of course, the economic forces which caused resale prices to plummet at many properties really helps tip the scales. 

Resale purchases are likely to depreciate very little over time (or at least very slowly) unless the product changes drastically, so the "loss" there is, at least in my opinion, just a minimal vacation expense.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I think you missed my point. I am not saying it is about getting an actual cash return in the form of appreciating resale value. I am saying that I expect the timeshare purchase to save money over rental costs after taking into account (i) opportunity costs of the initial purchase, (ii) MFs, and (iii) depreciation in value.
> 
> In my eyes, because a retail purchase has a higher opportunity costs (larger upfront cost) and depreciates 50%-80% seven to ten days after you buy it, it is almost impossible to come out ahead versus renting. A $30K developer purchase has an opportunity cost of about $1500 (at 5%) and depreciates about $20K almost immediately ($1000 a year over 20 years). Add to that MFs of about $1000 and the annual costs over the next 20 years is $3500 (assumning no more depreciation and no MF increases). It's pretty hard to come out ahead versus renting at this cost...
> 
> With a resale purchase, the math looks better because of lower opportunity costs and slower depreciation. Note that I am still talking about depreciation and not appreciation, but I still expect to come out ahead versus renting. Just like the car purchase, this is about the old lease versus buy decision... If the slow depreciation assumption in a resale purchase is flawed, one is just better off always renting (and still enjoying the benefits of vacationing in a timeshare).



I'm afraid that, over the long run, if you expecting a timeshare to ever save you money you'll be dissapointed. After 12 years of owning timeshares, even if I elemintated the original purchased price, the MF's, exchange company fee's and exchange fee's pretty much wipe out any significant cost saving if there were any savings at all. Owning is convenient in how I'm allowed to gain access to reservations where I want to go for the resorts I want to stay in. It's more a lifestyle choice, similar to driving a Cadilac rather than a Chevy. 

Perry has at least one thing correct. Developers would like to squash resale purchases. The only way they can do this is to make it more of an advantage to buy retail than resale. The only way they can do this is by adding perks or offering exclusivity.

Where he's off base is that it's most of the major timeshare developers. It's not desperation. It's not that Marriott is going bankrupt. It's business as usual.

DRI excludes resales from their internal program unless you buy some developer inventory. They use to off a buy in for $2,995 but, word on the street is that off is off the table now. Presently I've been hearing the a resale buyer must spend at least $5,000 to join.

Wyndham and Hilton offer exclusive perks to retail buyers that are not available to resale buyers. With Hilton it's Elite status. I think it's the same with Wyndham but, I don't know that product well enough to state it as fact. 

Marriott thought that Rewards points was their exclusive golden ticket to get people to buy retail. If there are less than 10% that buy resale vs retail buyers, I suppose one could say that's worked well for them.

But over time the sales landscape has changed for Marriott. The majority of the developers have added another aspect to their programs in the form of low cost or no cost internal exchanges. Another exclusive perk they can offer their retail buyers. Marriott is probably feeling that they're not as competitive anymore because they don't have a program that compete's well.

Now comes the economic downturn and developers who are having difficulty moving inventory. Sales are down and profits are off. However there is an opportunity to produce income without the cost of building inventory. That is the offering of a new product that current owners will buy into if the price is right and the benefit offers enough incentive people want to be a part of it.

Basically, it's the perfect storm. They need to be competitive, they need to earn money and, they need to give their sales staff more amunition to make Marriott the best timeshare product on the market. TA DA, internal exchange comes to Marriott. It offers exclusivity (retail vs resale and internal exchange's before all others), it can boost income without a significant cost factor, it will put people like me back in front of salesmen to learn about what's going on, competitiors can't say they're better than Marriott because Marriott doesn't have an internal program and it puts Marriott back on par with all the other hotel/developers on the block.

Yes I look for this to be more expensive for resale buyers. I don't look for Marriott to completely shut out past resale buyers if only for the reason there aren't that many of them AND, Marriott wants to make a little money off of them as well by welcoming them into the "official" fold. Some say $2,500 to join for resale buyers. I think the ratio is more likely to be $500 for retail buyers and $1,500 for resale buyers. 

Whatever they do, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter. You either bought the timeshare to use or you bought it to manipulate. If you buy to manipulate, eventually the landscape will change and you'll either change with it or get rid of the timeshare. If you bought it to use then change isn't going to affect you that much. Fotunately for us we learned that lesson early on. 

The change will affect us and I know that. If I wanted to sell my timeshare, it is very likely this change will lower the resale value. However I would challange that, without ROFR, there wasn't a lot of resale value there to begin with. We've all seen prices fall once Marriott stopped exercising ROFR.

The biggest change for us will likely be how we exchange within the Marriott system. How much will it cost? No one knows. We're assuming it will be a points based exchange system but, Marriott hasn't givent details. What will the value of my exchange be? We've learned how to manipulate the system to get more value out of our exchanges. If there is a new system, how can we get the most out of our ownership? To me those are the big questions. The one question that shouldn't be of concern is, what's my resale value? The short answer is, once Marriott stopped exercising ROFR, the resale value is closer to zero than ever before and, it's not likely to get any better.

Who will this hurt the most? I'm assuming people who bought a cheap lower season week in order to exchange into more expensive higher season weeks. Will they still be able to manipulate the system to get that value out of their low to mid level weeks? I believe they probably will but, they'll have to look at it with new eyes. Tossing the baby out with the bathwater at this point in the game is a foolish thing to do. If Marriott is going to introduce a new wrinkle, it's going to be introduced. All the gnashing of teeth, preaching and crying won't change it. 

Nothing has happened yet. Everything is just speculation and wild rumors. Fletch said we're all over thinking this and he's right. Nothing happens until Marriott makes an announcement. I understand the anxiety that even the rumor of change can bring but, I don't understand the few people who are predicting total collapse just because they're way of exchanging is likely to be affected. 

Buy what you're willing to use and you'll probably be happy. Buy to manipulate the system and you'll have to be flexible when change comes around the corner. Over the last 12 years, we've been both happy and we've found we had to be flexible. Some units that were originally purchased to use became exchange units. As the landscape has changed, we've had to change with it. Sometimes that's cost us a little more money but, in the final anylsis it's returned us more than the cost. We've made decent decisions but, we've also been lucky in some instances. At this point in time, I feel that if a person can get at least 10 good years from a timeshare purchase they're doing well. If you can extend that amount of time you're doing great. So far, we're doing great. I'll have to wait and see what happens sometime this year (I'm not buying the June date just yet) to know where we stand with out Marriott weeks.


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## john_olson_aqrj (Mar 30, 2010)

*Longer term issues for Platinum Owners*

I feel the KEY is that non-Marriott purchased weeks will not be able to get into the new MVCI points/exchange system unless you pay more money.  Senior Marriott sales executives are NOT transferring their Platinum Oceanfronts at Grande Ocean on Hilton Head into the new system per my MVCI source.  I think Platinum owners will NOT flee into the new system, but the silvers will; thinking they will be able to get to use Platinum weeks.  This will be a challenge for everyone but one I can manage.

My concern is the BIG problem will be a few years down the road when over 20% of a resort's weeks are owned by some MVCI trust.  They will have gotten many bronze, silver, and some gold and platinum weeks.  Who gets to vote for new Board members ??  Only a small percentage of people actually "vote" in board elections.  Marriott already has the precedence of controlling the Board when a resort is being built as they "own" many weeks.

Once in; MVCI may decide to do only what is good for MVCI or at least that is what the lawsuit will allege.  The Board and MVCI a will probably get sued in a class action and legal costs will create problems.  I think MVCI may have thought about this and it will be a "friendly class action".  Owners get coupons for reduced upgrade charges while the layers get large fees.  The bottom line, I feel, is lawyers and MVCI sales people get rich and middle class gets the shaft (This idea came from TUG postings on RCI class action suit).

My nightmare is if MVCI gets control of a Board, would they act like a NYC rent control landlord who lets the building run down to force the old tenants out so they can resell it out for new "condos" at a big profit ???  The other alternative is MVCI keeps the resort up BUT changes the way maintenance fees are allocated so Platinum owners pay 100 % more and Bronze far less.  This may force Platinum owners to move to the new system.

The Oceanfront Platinum owners have a potential to get hurt either way.  The best hope I feel is that multi-week MVCI owners who are also Elite level Marriott Hotel members get mad and start complaining.  *Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this ??*  Should we use the "H" word, Hyatt.  I hear Warren Buffet may be in discussion to buy in and expand that chain.

In any case, the people who I feel sorry for are the MVCI Operations staff who will be in the middle.  Folks may take out their frustration in resort surveys and become harder to make happy.  We will be at Marriott's Grande Ocean on Hilton Head on June 15th so it should be an "interesting" week.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 30, 2010)

john_olson_aqrj said:


> I feel the KEY is that non-Marriott purchased weeks will not be able to get into the new MVCI points/exchange system unless you pay more money.  Senior Marriott sales executives are NOT transferring their Platinum Oceanfronts at Grande Ocean on Hilton Head into the new system per my MVCI source.  I think Platinum owners will NOT flee into the new system, but the silvers will; thinking they will be able to get to use Platinum weeks.  This will be a challenge for everyone but one I can manage.



Maybe. But, if a Platinum owner in an expensive resort wants to trade out but, feels that in the weeks based system Marriott has now, they're not getting their value, they may feel that a points based system provides some equality.

For example, a Platinum ocean front week will likely recieve more points than my Silver Ocean Pointe week. If I own that Platinum week, trading into a lower season is pretty much a waste of trade power. 

Now what if I'm given a number of points, for the sake of a arguement lets say 1,000 points (totally pulled out of thin air) for a Platinum ocean front HHI week. I want to go to S. Florida but, my travel plans call for a November week, which is either Gold or Silver season depending on the resort. Let's say that a Silver season week has a value of 500 points. A Platinum season can make the  exchange and still have trade value left over. Again, keep in mind that I'm pulling numbers out of the air. I have no idea how Marriott might assign point values. I'm probably way off on my numbers. I just want to illustrate how a points based exchange system levels the playing fielf for those who own high value weeks.  

In the old system it's week for week whether you trade up or trade down. It can be more advantagous to own a lower week and manipulate the system to exchange up than to own the most expensive week and always be trading down. It might actually encourage high season owners at expensive resorts to exchange more since they can get value for their weeks.

To that end, I disagree that you'll see more low season weeks than high season weeks if/when the change is made. A weeks based exchange system favors the cheap resorts if you know how to work the system and mangage to trade up.

A points based system is likely to hurt my Silver season studio I've been using for exchanges. Right now, I can easily trade it into Branson for a 1 or 2 bedroom unit that's listed as Platinum season for that resort. In a points based system, my bet is I won't have enough points to pull that off. To that end, I'm not sure I want that week in a points based system. It has low value and, I can still use Interval's weeks based system to trade up, even if it's not a Marriott resort. 



> My concern is the BIG problem will be a few years down the road when over 20% of a resort's weeks are owned by some MVCI trust.  They will have gotten many bronze, silver, and some gold and platinum weeks.  Who gets to vote for new Board members ??  Only a small percentage of people actually "vote" in board elections.  Marriott already has the precedence of controlling the Board when a resort is being built as they "own" many weeks.



If Marriott is going to a trust based ownership, this is a major concern. The trust will vote their block of weeks and, eventually the trust will have enough weeks to essentially control the resorts without any real owner input. Search threads about DRI to find complaints about potential strong arm tactics and 20% MF increases. 



> Once in; MVCI may decide to do only what is good for MVCI or at least that is what the lawsuit will allege.  The Board and MVCI a will probably get sued in a class action and legal costs will create problems.  I think MVCI may have thought about this and it will be a "friendly class action".  Owners get coupons for reduced upgrade charges while the layers get large fees.  The bottom line, I feel, is lawyers and MVCI sales people get rich and middle class gets the shaft (This idea came from TUG postings on RCI class action suit).



Again, it could happen. It hasn't so far with other trust based systems but, it's still a possiblity.



> My nightmare is if MVCI gets control of a Board, would they act like a NYC rent control landlord who lets the building run down to force the old tenants out so they can resell it out for new "condos" at a big profit ???  The other alternative is MVCI keeps the resort up BUT changes the way maintenance fees are allocated so Platinum owners pay 100 % more and Bronze far less.  This may force Platinum owners to move to the new system.
> 
> The Oceanfront Platinum owners have a potential to get hurt either way.  The best hope I feel is that multi-week MVCI owners who are also Elite level Marriott Hotel members get mad and start complaining.  *Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this ??*  Should we use the "H" word, Hyatt.  I hear Warren Buffet may be in discussion to buy in and expand that chain.
> 
> In any case, the people who I feel sorry for are the MVCI Operations staff who will be in the middle.  Folks may take out their frustration in resort surveys and become harder to make happy.  We will be at Marriott's Grande Ocean on Hilton Head on June 15th so it should be an "interesting" week.



I think concerns are fine right now but, there's nothing to complain about yet. While some might want to jump off a bridge, there's no bridge to jump from at this time.

Rather than worry about what's coming down the line, something we don't really have control over anyway, why don't we wait to see what's offered. If it's a bad deal, I don't see a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon. IMHO it would take decades for Marriott to sell enough trust memberships to effectively take control of the majority of resorts. A lot can happen in that amount of time. I'm willing to wait and see what's offered, then make my decision if it's good or bad. Until we see something, there's nothing to complain about. Who knows, this might be the greatest things since sliced bread. It might be a trust or, it might just be an internal exchange system that uses points to establish the value of a unit. No more guessing what your unit is worth, you'll have it in writing. It might not be as bad as everyone fears.

In the FWIW column, if Marriott does go with a trust based program, the likelyhood I'll give up my deeds is pretty low. I'll look at and consider anything they offer but, I bought the resorts we own because we like those resorts. I'm not in favor of becoming a member a trust and giving up my deed and my deeded voting rights. Then again, they could toss my MGC resort in with the Hawaiian resorts and make it so easy to get into Hawaii that I can't resist. Time will tell. I'll reserve final judgement until such time as Marriott makes me an offer. Until then, it's a good discussion and gets us all thinking. Hopefully, we'll be ahead of the power curve when they introduce something and have good questions ready when they try to sell it to us.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 31, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Maybe. But, if a Platinum owner in an expensive resort wants to trade out but, feels that in the weeks based system Marriott has now, they're not getting their value, they may feel that a points based system provides some equality.
> 
> .




My understanding was that most MVC complaints were that they cannot get the trades they want, not equality issues.  I really don't think most MVC owners (non tuggers) think about equality issues.  10 to 1, a normal (non-tugger) MVC Hawaii owner has NO idea how much any other MVC property costs, nor do they care unless they want to buy there.  I don't know if the typical owner says, "well, I paid 50k for my HI week in 2008, yet I want to trade into NCV which only costs 35k, I am getting robbed"   I think people will join because they think they will get the trades they want, the question will be will the inventory be in the system to support this.


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> My understanding was that most MVC complaints were that they cannot get the trades they want, not equality issues.  I really don't think most MVC owners (non tuggers) think about equality issues.  10 to 1, a normal (non-tugger) MVC Hawaii owner has NO idea how much any other MVC property costs, nor do they care unless they want to buy there.  I don't know if the typical owner says, "well, I paid 50k for my HI week in 2008, yet I want to trade into NCV which only costs 35k, I am getting robbed"   I think people will join because they think they will get the trades they want, the question will be will the inventory be in the system to support this.



I don't think the typical owner knows the numbers, like you say, but many are aware of relative value. I have friends who don't want to trade their Plat. Caribbean week even for a Florida Plat. week, because they feel they are getting "gypped." I've spoken with Ko'Olina owners who return year after year because they don't think they'd be getting equivalent value on a trade, but are tired of the trip. However, I think that most people will, ultimately, make the trade though if they can get to where they'd like to go when they want to travel.

So I think both considerations are an issue- inventory and quality. The equality issue is a double edged sword for Marriott, though. Those really prime Platinum weeks owners are bound to be happy (for now, at least, but if Marriott uses it as a sales tool and gives unfair weight to newer properties regardless of their relative worth, then that may be a different story a few years down the road), but there are lots of other Platinum week owners (many of whom paid tens of thousands of dollars as well) who are apt to feel slighted. Right now, all Platinum owners feel relatively equal; there was just a recent post about the great trades MGV owners were getting by reserving President's week and locking off, with hopes of getting 2BR Plat. Caribbean units even from the lock-off. Other MGV owners were reporting having done just that. Fast forward to IF and when Marriott releases its points system- imagine the look on that MGV owner's face when he/she likely finds that 2BR Plat. MGV unit is only worth 3 or 4 days in a Plat. Caribbean unit, or a week in a 1BR at best. 

For a system to be really efficient and function more than just on paper, a lot of owners have to join, from a broad spectrum of ownerships. In order for those premium properties to get the due "value" from their weeks, there have to be both other premium weeks and lesser quality weeks for them to trade into, so that they get like for like (quality/size/days) or a larger size and/or more days if going to a less premium property (quality or season). IF those "lesser quality" week owners don't join (because they don't see much in it for them and they'll still be able to get those week trades in II), there won't be the inventory to make the system work.

Whether it is a trust based system or an overlay system, or the cost is different, I suspect the relative week value will approximate what was offered in the Asia Pacific program. Just like the Phuket owner who posted it felt he wasn't getting enough value for his week, I suspect there will be many Platinum week owners who take issue with the point assignments and, for perhaps the first time, equality (or perceived inequality) will become a major focus. Again- nice for the premium Platinum weeks. Not so nice for the "lesser" Platinum week owners, who never thought of themselves as being subordinate. Certainly not so nice for Gold and Silver and esp. Bronze week owners. 

Which brings me back full circle to one of my concerns in all this- Marriott sold a system based on a certain pattern of trading (whether or not that was equitable is a matter of whose eyes you are looking at it through), with MF's being the same across all seasons at each resort. IF Bronze week owners can only get the trade value of a Bronze week (and not the upgrades that many are used to), and Silver week owners, and Gold week owners, will they all be willing to pay the same MF's? I think it is going to be hard to superimpose something new on a functioning structure, because while it will smooth our some of the current inequities, it may well create others. 

I may be guessing wrong here, but I am guessing that many Platinum week owners would like the strength of higher point values, but would be very upset if MF's were commensurate with point value assignment (which, btw, Marriott did do in their Asia Pacific program, so the idea isn't so far fetched).


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## dougp26364 (Mar 31, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> My understanding was that most MVC complaints were that they cannot get the trades they want, not equality issues.  I really don't think most MVC owners (non tuggers) think about equality issues.  10 to 1, a normal (non-tugger) MVC Hawaii owner has NO idea how much any other MVC property costs, nor do they care unless they want to buy there.  I don't know if the typical owner says, "well, I paid 50k for my HI week in 2008, yet I want to trade into NCV which only costs 35k, I am getting robbed"   I think people will join because they think they will get the trades they want, the question will be will the inventory be in the system to support this.



They might not see the value now but, offer a Hawaii week owner twice the number of points an Orlando week will get and they'll see that value. IMHO, it will encourage Platinum and high value week owners to become members and be discouraging for lower value week owners, not the other way around. I can see more Platinum members joining and fewer Bronze or Silver week owners. 

I would disagree that non-TUG member owners don't understand the value of their timeshare. At the very least, they understand the value of the seasons when they purchase. I would venture to guess that the typical Silver season owner undestands that his/her week is not as valuable as a Platinum season owner. For that reason, I believe that Platinum season owners would not want to trade down in season with a week to week based exchange system but, in a points based system where they will have some residual value, value that can be used for additional exchanges or to purchases services such as renting a car or purchase of FF miles, it might appeal to them. 

Basically, unlike those that feel only low season owners might join a points based program, I feel the opposite is true. Low season owners won't see the value but, those owning high season weeks that receive the most points will see value. I see more reasons for high season week owners to join a points based program.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 31, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I don't think the typical owner knows the numbers, like you say, but many are aware of relative value. I have friends who don't want to trade their Plat. Caribbean week even for a Florida Plat. week, because they feel they are getting "gypped." I've spoken with Ko'Olina owners who return year after year because they don't think they'd be getting equivalent value on a trade, but are tired of the trip. However, I think that most people will, ultimately, make the trade though if they can get to where they'd like to go when they want to travel.
> 
> So I think both considerations are an issue- inventory and quality. The equality issue is a double edged sword for Marriott, though. Those really prime Platinum weeks owners are bound to be happy (for now, at least, but if Marriott uses it as a sales tool and gives unfair weight to newer properties regardless of their relative worth, then that may be a different story a few years down the road), but there are lots of other Platinum week owners (many of whom paid tens of thousands of dollars as well) who are apt to feel slighted. Right now, all Platinum owners feel relatively equal; there was just a recent post about the great trades MGV owners were getting by reserving President's week and locking off, with hopes of getting 2BR Plat. Caribbean units even from the lock-off. Other MGV owners were reporting having done just that. Fast forward to IF and when Marriott releases its points system- imagine the look on that MGV owner's face when he/she likely finds that 2BR Plat. MGV unit is only worth 3 or 4 days in a Plat. Caribbean unit, or a week in a 1BR at best.
> 
> ...



You've done a good job of understanding and touching on the fear factor. Those of us like myself and Perry, who understand the system and can work the system to trade up, are likely to be hurt by switching to a points based system. I've been able to work the system so that I feel I'm gettting more value from my Silver season studio week and my Platinum season Vegas week than they're probably really worth. 

What's missing from the discussion are the values and rules. Unlike some, I'm not crying that the sky is falling or the word as we know it is comnig to an end. At least not yet. I want to see the program first. Even in a points based program there are advantages that can be worked. While I'm assuming I might lose value, I could also be surprised at the relative value of my ownership. I might also find that I can combine the points in my ownership, still get what I want out of the resorts I own and do even better with what's left over for exchange.

I consider that Silver season studio lock-out a throw away unit. We bought the three bedroom in FL for future needs. When the kids start having kids themselves, we envisioned needing the space. To date we haven't needed the space and we've lock-off the studio side. We exchange it for what ends up being long weekend trips to either Branson or Breckenridge. 

We also own a 3 bedroom in Vegas. We own that unit because we liked the layout of the unit and the unit location at the resort. We didn't buy it because we needed a 3 bedroom unit. It also helps that the lock-off is a full one bedroom unit and trades like a full one bedroom unit through Interval and with Marriott. This unit has been used for some pretty nice exchanges up in to larger units in May for HHI and for a May exchange into Custom House. We've been very pleased with how it has exchanged in the weeks based program.

Under a points based program, I might not have the trade value (or I might, we haven't seen anything yet) but, I can combine points to get more value. That throw away studio's points might be combinable with the 1 bedroom week in Vegas so that we can get what we want without having the request and hope. It might save me two exchange fee's that cost $109 to $139 each depending on if I'm trading within the Marriott system or outside the Marriott system. 

I think that it's important that we take into consideration what we see with other points based systems but, at the same time we don't over think this thing. The world isn't coming to an end, the sky isn't falling, Marriott isn't going bankrupt and, from what I can see they're not desperate either. On the other hand, every other developer seems to have gone to better internal exchange systems so, Marriott might just be wanting to catch up with the rest of the industry and get their competitive edge back when it comes to sales.


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## kschauberger (Mar 31, 2010)

I would like to ask questions to you all.  I would like to know who came up with the idea that Marriott is coming out with a point system?  Can we prove with any certainty that there will be a point system?  Are we going on the words of our truthful sales reps, whom some could have been working fast food yesterday.  Look I don't ever believe anything until it has been made 100% official by Marriott.  Even if they do move to a point based system they most likely are not going to force you to it.  We own at Polo towers, and when Diamond announced that we were able to go to points we were not forced to.  We did only with paying another 3000 dollars to a them, and finding out later we made a HUGE mistake, as our MFs went through the roof and now we are paying club dues.  I regret that decision everyday.  The only good thing is we can use the resort collection of Diamond.  Before we just put it into II. I feel we are no better.  We were told that our ability to use the Polo towers in trading would be much more difficult.  Granted we have found our 1 week has gone a lot further then 1 week in trading but at a great monetary cost.  If we all think Marriott will produce a point system that can work then we all should look forward to it.  Please never expect this conversion to be free.  Though Marriott could force all owners into the new system kind of what Diamond did with us, by making trading outside of our home resort much more difficult.  If I remember right we all own deeded property at 1 resort or more if you own at more then one.  Who knows maybe they will tell us that we can't internally trade into a Marriott without the move to points, but can still use II to trade into a non Marriott place.  Again this is all speculation from another system we have dealt with.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2010)

If whatever new exchange system they introduce does not impact home resort usage then maintenance fees shouldn't enter into the equation.  M/F are set according to the costs to run a resort, and those are the same whether you're dealing with a Bronze gardenview or Plat oceanfront or any week in between.  It's in the selling prices where there is a differential and where Marriott has determined a value for each week, which is why I think that Marriott's pricing structure is a better indicator for exchange points value.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 31, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> I would like to ask questions to you all.  I would like to know who came up with the idea that Marriott is coming out with a point system?  Can we prove with any certainty that there will be a point system?  Are we going on the words of our truthful sales reps, whom some could have been working fast food yesterday.  Look I don't ever believe anything until it has been made 100% official by Marriott.  Even if they do move to a point based system they most likely are not going to force you to it.  We own at Polo towers, and when Diamond announced that we were able to go to points we were not forced to.  We did only with paying another 3000 dollars to a them, and finding out later we made a HUGE mistake, as our MFs went through the roof and now we are paying club dues.  I regret that decision everyday.  The only good thing is we can use the resort collection of Diamond.  Before we just put it into II. I feel we are no better.  We were told that our ability to use the Polo towers in trading would be much more difficult.  Granted we have found our 1 week has gone a lot further then 1 week in trading but at a great monetary cost.  If we all think Marriott will produce a point system that can work then we all should look forward to it.  Please never expect this conversion to be free.  Though Marriott could force all owners into the new system kind of what Diamond did with us, by making trading outside of our home resort much more difficult.  If I remember right we all own deeded property at 1 resort or more if you own at more then one.  Who knows maybe they will tell us that we can't internally trade into a Marriott without the move to points, but can still use II to trade into a non Marriott place.  Again this is all speculation from another system we have dealt with.



There are a couple of tuggers that have connections a little higher up that most. Notably DaveM and Fletch. Both have confirmed that changes are coming and both seem to believe it will be a points based exchange system. The details haven't been released.

On the other hand, this has been a persistant rumor for a couple of years now. It's possible that nothing will change. That makes all this talk about potential changes nothing more than speculation. Thus, it's nothing that should get any of us all excited or worried. 

Right now, the antcipated announcement date is sometime around June of this year. Keeping in mind that some also believe the world is going to end on 12/12/2012 this may or may not be a real date. I'm betting that June will come and go without an announcement but, I also believe that something will be announced before the end of this year. Exactly what Marriott announces no one really knows.

As to Polo Towers and their points system. We own two weeks at Polo Towers and, like you, we paid $2,995 to join their points based system. MF's have gone up over 10% for the last two years but, what you're neglecting is the fact that they didn't go up at all for the three years before that. It wasn't that they went up so much that last two years as the fact they should have gone up 3 to 5% per year during the years they didn't go up. Our BOD/HOA balanced the budget by decreasing the cash reserves collections. Remember that $1,000 per 2 bedroom SA? That's because the BOD/HOA didn't collect enough money for cash reserves to pay for future renovations. MF's were held to low. 

It's not the points system that increased MF's. It was past decisions by the BOD/HOA that put us into a position of having large increases the last couple of years. One had nothing to do with the other. 
Unlike you we've made very good use of the points based exchange system. Here's how it's worked for us.

1. We were using our PT's units strictly to exchange. Each excahgne was costing us $139 throug Interval. Using the internal exchange we don't pay that fee. Two exchanges saves us more than the membership fee. The membership fee has paid for itself every year we've been a member becasue of this one feature.

2. We were trading full weeks for short stays in Branson. We actually own more timeshares than we can use. With PT's, we were locking off and using the studio side for short stays in Branson. That meant paying with a full weeks usage when we only needed to pay for 3 or 4 nights. Now we're only paying for what we use and, we're no longer paying an exchange fee to do it. 

3. We had been trading down in value and getting nothing in return. With the points system, we have 26,500 points. If we wanted to exchange through Interval, it costs 7,500 points for a two bedroom exchange or, 15,000 points for two weeks in 2 bedroom units. That would leave us 11,500 points left over to get the exact same thing we were getting before. We can either use those points for additional exchanges or, we can us them for other costs or services. We can trade for FF miles, car rentals, cruise discounts or discounts on our MF's. Remember we were getting two 2 bedroom exchanges anyway so anything above that is a bonus. These last couple of years we've used our excess points to lower our MF's. By next year we'll have taken all the exchanges we would have normally taken, saved the Interval exchange fee's AND covered the initial $2,995 joiner fee. From this point forward, until something else changes, we'll be ahead of the game as far as expenses are concerned. We'll get the same exchanges as before but, we won't necessarly have to pay exchange fee's and we'll have residual value to put towards something else. 

4. One last benefit to the points program was that one of our weeks, a Skyview Suite's at Polo Towers week, is a fixed week. Times changed and week 36 in Las Vegas no longer works for us. Should we ever want to return to our home resort we can now float our week in the points based program without having to wait until 90 days prior to check in. So we were able to turn a fixed week that didn't work for us into a floating week that can work for us. Sure it cost us $2,995 to do that but, that was cheaper than selling the fixed week, then searching for, buying and paying closing costs on another week that maybe suited our needs better.

DRI's points system certainly doesn't work that well for everyone. For instance, someone that always uses their home resort week wouldn't see much, if any, benefit from it. 

The one thing you shouldn't do is equate the increase in MF's to the points based system. One had nothing to do with the other. Mismanagement of MF's the previous years had more to do with the large increases than anything else.

Any change to how Marriott handles exchanges will require close scrutiny by each individual own to see if they can gain value from it. Some will undoubtedly see value while others will see it as a bad thing. Some will see value while some will see an end to the great exchanges they've been able to get. I've managed some good exchanges by understanding how the system works. If they change, it will take me a little while to learn the new system and determine if it's right for me. Hopefully, Marriott will give existing owners time to think about wether any new changes are good or bad for each owner. It would be a tragedy IMHO if they presented it and told us we had to make a decision right now rather than giving us time to examine our options.


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> If whatever new exchange system they introduce does not impact home resort usage then maintenance fees shouldn't enter into the equation.  M/F are set according to the costs to run a resort, and those are the same whether you're dealing with a Bronze gardenview or Plat oceanfront or any week in between.  It's in the selling prices where there is a differential and where Marriott has determined a value for each week, which is why I think that Marriott's pricing structure is a better indicator for exchange points value.



While MF's are set according to individual resort costs, IF Marriott's new system (IF there is a new system) retains home resort advantage (which, btw, Fletch indicated would NOT be the case), then the MF structure should stay the same. However, where it may come into play is that lower season owners, many of whom may have been accustomed to using II to get perhaps greater benefit from their ownership than their purchase should have given them, who may no longer be able to derive the same benefit that they used to, may balk at those MF's. You only have to look over at Starwood to see the impact of MF defaults on overall MF's. 

Remember, timesharing is really a closed system, so that if exchanges become more equitable, for every Platinum owner that gets more value (perhaps getting full value and even a fairer value) there is someone on the other end that gets less (although, again, possibly a fairer representation of what they should be getting). So, for every happy owner, there's bound to be one less happy owner. How that unhappy owner may react is anyone's guess, but is a risk if a new system is superimposed upon a current ownership.

I know we have discussed the issue of valuations before, and of course you are entitled to feel that it should be set according to the selling prices, but I think that would be a big mistake. Although selling prices escalate over time with inflation, the price differential does not fully reflect the price differentials of construction over time. Thus, if two identical resorts were built at the same location let's say a decade apart, I would fully expect the newer resort to be selling for more money, as a by-product of the time of its construction. Using a pricing structure as an evaluative tool will be ensuring that future resorts will be out of the reach of current owners, so that even today's premium properties will hold relatively lesser value than many of tomorrow's, even if in a less desirable location. Akin to the devaluation in the Reward points system, I think using sales prices to determine timeshare point value is destined to effectively create a relative devaluation as time marches on, despite paying higher and higher MF's to ensure that those older resorts are kept up to current standards.

I think value is determined by location and resort amenities, and is really a function of market forces (supply in, and demand of, the  location). Marriott rental prices also reflect a differential, are continually readjusted over time but reflect the relative valuation of properties as a function of the market forces that determine desirability (supply and demand), and are a consistent reflection of the true value over the course of time. Setting valuations according to real rental values would ensure that valuations are calculated according to a set figure and reflect only relative differences between different ownerships and are not a factor of time, nor artificially inflated as a sales tool. To put it simplistically- if a room at resort A rents for $100 a night assign it 700 points for a week; if another resort, B, rents for $300 a night it gets 2100 points. At the onset of the program, the number of points assigned should mathematically reflect the rental rates. Fast forward 10 years- that $100 a night room is now $150 and that $300 a night room $450. A new resort, C, is built and it rents for $450 a night; it should get the same portion of points that resort B was assigned at the inception of the program- 2100 points. If, however, resort C rents for $675 a night at the time that resort B is renting for $450, then it should get 150% of the points- or 3150. Thus, point assignments remain fairly distributed over time, and are purely a reflection of true value (and, really, the value of a week is determined by its demand- which rental rates reflect- and not by the cost to build it or its sales price).

Prices at Marco are a perfect example of why sales prices are not the true reflection of value. What sales price should the units be valued at- the initial price, or the current 35% discounted price? Their value hasn't changed, but the sales prices have changed markedly. The only consistent reflection of value is what people are willing to pay to rent the units- which is already calculated by Marriott in the prices they have set for rental units. The differences for seasons (averaging prices across the weeks in question), unit size and views are already in place. Extrapolating it to a timeshare point valuation would be a relatively easy task and would ensure consistency over the years rather than arbitrary periodic devaluations.


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## davidvel (Mar 31, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> If whatever new exchange system they introduce does not impact home resort usage then maintenance fees shouldn't enter into the equation.  M/F are set according to the costs to run a resort, and those are the same whether you're dealing with a Bronze gardenview or Plat oceanfront or any week in between.  It's in the selling prices where there is a differential and where Marriott has determined a value for each week, which is why I think that Marriott's pricing structure is a better indicator for exchange points value.


Sue is correct. In CA and I suspect most other states, the MF are set based on the expenses and must be distributed evenly unless there is a disparate cost related to a certain group. Demand (ie. season) is not part of the equation. Also, the MF are in each resort's CCRs as dividing equally, and cannot be changed by a Board vote.

As manager, it has to follow those recorded entitlements. It can't institute any new "program" that conflicts. 

This is where Marriott is a bit stuck with its deeded condo/HOA based resorts, why there is a different economic model from traditional resorts/hotels, and why increasing MFs ultimately will kill a resort as lesser seasons pay more than they should based upon demand/value of the week (and higher seasons get "subsidized.") By destroy I mean those that hold the lesser weeks get to a point whre they abandon the week.


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2010)

davidvel said:


> Sue is correct. In CA and I suspect most other states, the MF are set based on the expenses and must be distributed evenly unless there is a disparate cost related to a certain group. Demand (ie. season) is not part of the equation. Also, the MF are in each resort's CCRs as dividing equally, and cannot be changed by a Board vote.
> 
> As manager, it has to follow those recorded entitlements. It can't institute any new "program" that conflicts.
> 
> This is where Marriott is a bit stuck with its deeded condo/HOA based resorts, why there is a different economic model from traditional resorts/hotels, and why increasing MFs ultimately will kill a resort as lesser seasons pay more than they should based upon demand/value of the week (and higher seasons get "subsidized.") By destroy I mean those that hold the lesser weeks get to a point whre they abandon the week.



That's exactly my point- IF there is a new system that diminishes the value of certain weeks, will Bronze, etc. week owners abandon their responsibilities over time? Alternately, IF Marriott institutes a trust based system (they can't take away deeded rights, but owners can voluntarily join a new internal trading system and relinquish those rights, as in the Asia Pacific program offered last year to overseas customers), then Platinum week owners, who would benefit from higher point allocations, would also incur higher expenses (assuming that system would have MF's allocated on a per point basis).

That's why I see MF's as a potential problem when superimposing a new system on an old one. I am not saying it cannot be done, but it is not a simple matter, which is why I think Marriott has repeatedly postponed rolling out such a system, assuming one has really been in the works for several years.


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## James1975NY (Mar 31, 2010)

m61376 said:


> That's exactly my point- IF there is a new system that diminishes the value of certain weeks, will Bronze, etc. week owners abandon their responsibilities over time? Alternately, IF Marriott institutes a trust based system (they can't take away deeded rights, but owners can voluntarily join a new internal trading system and relinquish those rights, as in the Asia Pacific program offered last year to overseas customers), then Platinum week owners, who would benefit from higher point allocations, would also incur higher expenses (assuming that system would have MF's allocated on a per point basis).
> 
> That's why I see MF's as a potential problem when superimposing a new system on an old one. I am not saying it cannot be done, but it is not a simple matter, which is why I think Marriott has repeatedly postponed rolling out such a system, assuming one has really been in the works for several years.



I am going to make an educated guess here and suggest that Marriott is more likely going to keep the deeded rights in tact and balance the maintenance fees across the owner base as they have. (Assuming a points based program rolls out).

The Starwood over-lay of the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN) did just that and gave the owners the opportunity to join at a nominal fee and owners of all seasons saw a benefit simply in the addition of more resorts without having to use an external exchange company but would also have a corporate membership to the external exchange company which is II. So, for the $109 an SVN member would pay every year (assuming one week of ownership), this covers their II membership and SVN participation. Of course, owners of lower seasons had less points than their high season counterparts of the same exact unit type and they paid same maintenance fees (taxes could vary if in Cali).

I cannot speak to whether or not Marriott will offer a corporate membership with II but I think it would be smart. They just renewed with II and I would imagine that this topic was discussed.

For this type of over-lay to work, they will need substantial participation from owners of all seasons and resorts to insure inventory is "ceded" from the multitude of categories for when the "club points period" opens for points reservations. When owners do not participate, the club does not work. Similar to an II or RCI situation. If owners did not deposit weeks, they would not request weeks, the system does not work.

Points systems are not perfect and will never be. It is all based on participation. Many owners will like the flexibility of a points program and I believe that participation will be there in reasonable time. Many will like the opportunity to do a shorter stay at a drive-to resort or a stay that is longer than 7 nights but less than 14.

It will be very interesting to see what _may_roll-out in the near future and how they will phase the roll-out.


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## BocaBoy (Mar 31, 2010)

Actually, the significant price increases are true.  Also, it is true that MVCI's sales this year so far are at very high levels.  Sometimes it is easy to poke fun without considering the facts.


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## Latravel (Mar 31, 2010)

You are so right.  I sometimes shake my head when people make fun of Marriott which is a very successful international corporation that's been around for a long time.  The long term strategy and pricing points are decided by a lot of analysis from different departments, focus groups, and highly paid experts in the field.  They don't make such decisions quickly or lightly and anyone who works in the corporate field should know that.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 1, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> I am going to make an educated guess here and suggest that Marriott is more likely going to keep the deeded rights in tact and balance the maintenance fees across the owner base as they have. (Assuming a points based program rolls out).
> 
> The Starwood over-lay of the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN) did just that and gave the owners the opportunity to join at a nominal fee and owners of all seasons saw a benefit simply in the addition of more resorts without having to use an external exchange company but would also have a corporate membership to the external exchange company which is II. So, for the $109 an SVN member would pay every year (assuming one week of ownership), this covers their II membership and SVN participation. Of course, owners of lower seasons had less points than their high season counterparts of the same exact unit type and they paid same maintenance fees (taxes could vary if in Cali).
> 
> ...




One of the better, more level headed posts I've seen on this subject. 

Right now, we know nothing about what Marriott will roll out. We do, however, know what many of the other developers are using at this time. While Marriott might come out with something completely different I'd say that would be a long shot if I was a betting man. It's more likely that Marriott will follow the tried and true paths of those who have gone before them, tweeking the program just enough to customize it to their corporate outlook. 

The only post that bothers me came from Fletch, who worked in sales. The rumor was no home resort adavntage. The only system I know of that don't have a true home resort advantage are trust based ownerships.

There is one shining example of a developer going to a trust based ownership program and that's Sunterra/DRI. Sunterra originally started out just converting owners over to an internal points based exchange system. Later, they came out with their version of an ownership trust and continued to convert deeded owners deeds into a membership in one of their trusts.

If you want to add a little backgound to the rumor, Marriott does have one form of an internal exchange club. That being the Florida club. With the Florida Club owners in resorts that participate can reserve units in any of the FL Club resorts, in their season of ownership, begining six months from their desired reservation date. There is a $39 fee for the FL Club that is mandatory. An owner can reserve any resort week and can deposit that week with Interval International. All owners keep their deeded week and, since they have the first six months to book their home resort exclusively, there is home resort advantage. 

Not that I expect Marriott to model any internal exchange program exactly like the FL Club but, they already have a template of sorts to work from. Add to that all the other internal programs they can research and Marriott has a wealth of information to put together what could be a really great program.

I just don't really get all the anxiety a few owners have about this. It's not as if Marriott will be blazing any new ground. Sure it will be change if it ever happens but, change is sometimes a good thing. Can you imagine what life would be like if all resorts were selling fixed week only and there wasn't the exchange companies as we know them today? 

I would like to think it will roll out in June but, the rumor has been around for several years now and there's nothing to hang our hats on yet. Only rumors propigated by salesmen who are typically the last to know. That and the inside information that DaveM and Fletch have posted. We'll just have to see when June rolls around. 

I have a late June reservation at a Marriott resort. I might actually do the owners update during that stay just to see if the sales floor has anymore tidbits of inforamtion trickling out. While the sales floor is often the last to know, maybe they'll have the next roll out date rumored to give us a little more to chew on.


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## m61376 (Apr 1, 2010)

Latravel said:


> You are so right.  I sometimes shake my head when people make fun of Marriott which is a very successful international corporation that's been around for a long time.  The long term strategy and pricing points are decided by a lot of analysis from different departments, focus groups, and highly paid experts in the field.  They don't make such decisions quickly or lightly and anyone who works in the corporate field should know that.



You're right. And I think that's why this rumor has been around so long. I'm guessing they have talked about a program and likely anticipated rolling out a program long before now, but due to the many complexities (many of which have been touched upon here) they have been holding off. I think they rolled out the Asia Pacific program to try something on a smaller scale and evaluate it. I also think they have looked long and hard at the Ritz program, which has had less than stellar reception. I think these are the reason my source indicated that things were shelved, at least for the time being. So while we may very well see something come June as DaveM and Fletch indicated, it may be much longer until, or if, we see a new program rolled out. 

Unlike Perry, I don't think the stretch of time has been a gimmick or tease, but a result of the complexities of overlaying a new system on an old, and a desire to keep old customers happy and offer them something new and exciting, while attracting new customers.

I agree with Heidi- Marriott is in business to make money, and they are smart. A company keeps making money by keeping customers happy and expanding their customer base. IF they do in fact roll out a program, many of us may be pleasantly surprised. I am am hopeful that they have considered the issues that we have brought up here. That's actually why I don't think this is a waste of time; while we are just pontificating and speculating, we are a real time consumer base and bringing up potential usage issues and, frankly, I would be surprised if someone at Marriott wasn't perusing these comments. Certainly Marriott execs know about Tug and we are a good, free, timeshare savvy resource, and I'm guessing threads like this are looked at. Maybe even some of our good ideas will wind their way into a new program if, in fact, there is one.


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## AceValenta (Apr 1, 2010)

I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:

1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program. 
2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks. 
3. All new purchasers will be on 99 year leaseholds. New owners will no longer have the option to purchase deeded weeks.
4. Marriott direct owners will have the opt-in option and forfeit their deeded week. 
5. Resale owners will be excluded from the program as they only make up a 1.8% of Marriott owners. 
6. It will be very close to the Asian points program or the very same system. 


The question is buy now or wait with this new information for a deeded property or see if the program actually comes to fruition?


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...





IF the salesperson provided the correct information, then deeded weeks will become scarce over time, and could in fact push up their resale value.  I am not to sure how the Marriott customers will accept a RTU (right to use) concept.

Just my opinion, would enjoy hearing from others.



.


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## James1975NY (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...



So....pretty much exactly the opposite of what I had predicted!? :hysterical: 

This is really interesting. Looking forward to learning more.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...



If that was a sales pitch he'd have been pitching the wrong thing to me. It would have put me off of Marriott permantly. Maybe he really knows something but, my feelings are that salesmen are the last to know. They'll make stuff up based on rumor and what little they do already know. Right now, they know the AP program exisits and they know how it works. I can see a sales staff looking at that program and making assumptions that's how Marriott will go.

As for a RTU system, I suppose one can look at DVC as an example of how a RTU system can work in todays market. On the other hand, DVC doesn't build resorts nearly as fast as any other developer in the timeshare market. The only developer that's as slow to introduce new products might be HGVC. DVC has been so unsure of itself it's even sold off two of it's prospective properties, Newport Coast and Paris France, to Marriott. The sales staff might be assuming Marriott will be a model after DVC and their own AP program but I'm not so sure. 

At any rate, if that's the case I'll stick with my two deeded weeks I own now and, if I wanted another deeded week, I'd buy one off the resale market rather than direct from Marriott. I'll be more likely to keep my deeded weeks and opt out. I certainly never see myself buying into such a program as what this salesman proposes.

When it comes to a timeshare saleman telling you anything there's one rule you MUST keep in mind. *If his lips are moving.......he's lying. * Salesmen have one job and one job only and that is to sell. IMHO, this one is trying to create a sense of urgency by giving the prospect a drop dead date before Marriott forever changes it's product. He doesn't know. He's guessing. 

Urgency is created by making a prospect believe that what's being offered is in limited supply. They did this in Branson for years by telling prospects that Disney would be building a new theme park. Buy now before the prices go through the roof. A couple of years ago the sense of urgency line changed to Branson making a law saying no other timeshares can be built in Branson. Management estimates that the existing supply will run out within 6 monhts. Buy now before the existing supply runs out. That was 3 years ago and, as far as I know, they're still selling timeshares in Branson.

Some Marriott salesmen read TUG. They'll use your fear against you when they can. Some TUG members have done a pretty good job of whipping up that fear. Don't fall for the sense of urgency sales pitch. Let's wait and see what Marriott offers before moving forward. 

But I will say it again. If Marroitt comes out with anything that removes my deeds from my hands, the likelyhood that we'll give up our deeds to join any pie in the sky RTU scheme are pretty much slim and none. I wish them well going forward but, they'll go forward without me and without any referals I might give.

I had thought about attending a sales presentation on one of our next two trips to Marriott timeshares. Now I'll skip that presentation and wait until there's something official. I don't need a salesmans speculation whipping up any sense of fear of big time change in me when he doesn't have anything to prove his statements to show me. If Marriott won't confirm it then it's all guesswork on the sales staffs part.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 1, 2010)

1.8%?  Is that it?  Seems low to me, even if you take away Marriott reselling weeks.  Has any other TS program that converted completely shut out resale owners?  Also, what would they do to new resale owners?  You can buy the points, but you just can't use them.........

However, I can kind of understand why they would go with a straight point system.  No deeds, no home resort, MF based on points owned, the more points you own the more places you can go, you have a fair chance at every Marriott just as long as you have the points and call early...  No thanks for me, but I can understand why many people would like it.


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## scrapngen (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...



Why would any owner of prime fixed weeks give them up for such a program?? Seems like Marriott would already know that the Asia Points system doesn't appeal to most American owners, so I hope they have something different in mind...Could see them selling strictly points in future - may be why salesmen have fled...


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## ondeadlin (Apr 1, 2010)

The idea that resale weeks make up 1.8 percent of Marriott owners is complete and absolute nonsense.

Every stat cited here for what percentage of Marriott owners are resale purchasers comes from Marriott. Guess what? It's to their advantage to downplay those numbers. 

There is no way we will every know what the real number is, because Marriott won't release it.

My guess? It's well over 50 percent. 

Anyone who wants to keep believing salesmen ... well ... that's why they keep finding buyers for $30,000 weeks that could be purchased for $5,000 resale. One born every minute, as they say.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...



This is an April Fools, right?


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## SueDonJ (Apr 1, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> The idea that resale weeks make up 1.8 percent of Marriott owners is complete and absolute nonsense.
> 
> Every stat cited here for what percentage of Marriott owners are resale purchasers comes from Marriott. Guess what? It's to their advantage to downplay those numbers.
> 
> ...



Granted, it's true that some salesmen will stretch the truth  , but what makes your "well over 50%" any more believable than what they may say?  You really think that more than half of the original inventory ever sold by Marriott has been resold?  I think that's wishful thinking on your part.

This latest from Ace's agent doesn't sound like it'll be a slamdunk money-maker, that's for sure.  The 99 years RTU, in particular, is useless.  I like the idea of RTUs so that our kids aren't saddled with the financial commitment forever, but 99 years covers the next three generations.  Bah.  As for the rest, it's too much of a change from what's available currently, leaves too much to chance for future use, to consider buying anything now.  It's worth at least waiting until that 6/17 employee training day has come and gone.


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## GaryDouglas (Apr 1, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.


 
I have also heard this from a salesman I trust. I have met more than a few Marriott sales people and with most of them I must hold much of what they say in suspense, but I have also dealt with some who are both knowledgeable and reliable. When I hear that all sales people are liars, well, I know better. Or as I was told when I was very young, "All generalizations are false, include the one I just made.".



TheTimeTraveler said:


> If the salesperson provided the correct information, then deeded weeks will become scarce over time, and could in fact push up their resale value.


 
Hmmm, could this be the law of supply and demand?


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## dougp26364 (Apr 1, 2010)

GaryDouglas said:


> I have also heard this from a salesman I trust. I have met more than a few Marriott sales people and with most of them I must hold much of what they say in suspense, but I have also dealt with some who are both knowledgeable and reliable. When I hear that all sales people are liars, well, I know better. Or as I was told when I was very young, "All generalization are false, include the one I just made.".
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, could this be the law of supply and demand?



O.K., let's not go with liars. How about story tellers. Marriott hasn't released information about any new product yet so, I doubt the sales staff really has anything definative past speculation over things they can see. Most of this seems to be based off the same things we as owners can see and that's Marriott's AP program. 

I'm not going to get excited about anything even the most respectable salesman tells me. If they knew, then we'd know in short order behind them. Since Marriott has told owners nothing I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they haven't told the salesmen anything either. I'll risk the assumption that Marketing is taking educated guesses at what the changes will be. 

On this topic I'll agree with PerryM in that Marriott brass should have put the brakes on this sort of specultaion being discussed with sales prospects. It doesn't help their cause and it can spread fear and panic among owners. It's not very professional for an organization I had held in high regard.

So this guy says the date is June 17th for retraining. I guess I'll put that date down in my calander. We have reservations for a stay at the end of June. I hope to see something firm in writing by then. Something I can hang my hat on rather than speculate as to what might or might not be the way of Marriott's future.

I certainly hope they don't go to a RTU program. While I believe I would like the option of a points based program I feel certain that I don't want to give up my deeded weeks. I believe, at this time and without seeing anything from Marriott, that keeping my deeds and continuing to use I.I. for exchanges when and where I want them would be in my best interest. I also tend to believe that the majority of Marriott's existing owners will feel the same way. 

But, I've been wrong before.


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## Latravel (Apr 2, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> The idea that resale weeks make up 1.8 percent of Marriott owners is complete and absolute nonsense...My guess? It's well over 50 percent.
> 
> Anyone who wants to keep believing salesmen ... well ... that's why they keep finding buyers for $30,000 weeks that could be purchased for $5,000 resale. One born every minute, as they say.




Well, I am more likely to believe the 1.8% figure than 50%.  Marriott timeshares have not been around long enough for 1/2 of all units to be resold.  They are selling more on the direct market at a faster rate than they can sell on the resale market.  If your figure was correct, the Marriott timeshare division would not be profitable and could not stay in business.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

I think I've read somewhere that the figure for resale owners is around 7%. 

99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


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## FlyerBobcat (Apr 2, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Well, I am more likely to believe the 1.8% figure than 50%.  Marriott timeshares have not been around long enough for 1/2 of all units to be resold.  *They are selling more on the direct market at a faster rate than they can sell on the resale market.*  If your figure was correct, the Marriott timeshare division would not be profitable and could not stay in business.



Heidi,
Can you expand or clarify what you mean by the part that I put in *bold*...  Maybe I'm confused at the two "they" words...  Thanks


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I think I've read somewhere that the figure for resale owners is around 7%.
> 
> 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.



I think the 7% is an industry average of the % of resales each year. Older resorts the number would be higher, perhaps even 100%, new resorts would be at 0% until the first resale.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 2, 2010)

Only Marriott knows the exact number of resale owners there are in the system.  I doubt that information is subject to any public filing, so we will never know.  I dont think I would trust a salesperson's number because they have a reason to down play the number.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the 7% is an industry average of the % of resales each year. Older resorts the number would be higher, perhaps even 100%, new resorts would be at 0% until the first resale.



it could be but, if it's the industry average, it's probably a pretty good bet that Marriott will be close to that same figure. While it's true that older resorts that have sold out would be 100% resale, the number of those units on the market at any given time would be far lower than the developer inventory being actively marketed and sold on that same date.


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## PerryM (Apr 2, 2010)

*Gentleman - Start your engines.....*



AceValenta said:


> I recently completed a tour and I am debating on purchasing another week through Marriott. The sales agent told me the following about the new points program coming out in June:
> 
> 1. All sales operations will shut down 6/17 for training of the new program.
> 2. They will no longer sell deeded weeks.
> ...



Have the day off and read all the latest posts - the salesrep that cooked up this set of whoppers had a lot of fun.

1) Probably the company picnic worldwide.  Retraining on how to sell Points and not weeks anymore.
2) What Marriott is morphing into Disney?
3) A leasehold should be for the life of the building not 4 generations of humans
4) How many lawyers and title processors reside in North America again?
5) ARDA stats from 3 years ago put resales at 7%.  If Marriott isn't building anymore they better hope for higher stats than that; they are the largest resale buyer.
6) I don't speak Chinese so I don't know.

My guess is that Marriott will continue to sell deeded weeks and lump them into their seasonal program.  The new exchange system is just that - it takes deeded weeks and converts them into Points that will make little sense to current seasons.  These Points become the fuel of their new sales engine.

1 year after release owners will be poorer and have much less exchange options - but at least 50% of the owners will join and after 3 years 90% will join.  Resale values will plunge so Marriott can recycle cheaper weeks for big bucks.

This is all about Marriott - owners are just fuel for this new sales engine.  Kind of like when they take corn out of the human fuel chain and put it into the automobile fuel chain - it's just a bad idea gone amuck.


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2010)

I may be wrong, but I thought that 7% was a number released in the Marriott statistics, when they released owner use, occupancy, trading, and unused statistics. It was awhile ago, though. And it referred to the portion of units, not of owners. Since many owners own multiple weeks (some both direct and resale), I'd think the percentage of owners would be closer to the 10% mark. But, of course, that's a guess.

That said, everything but the 1.8% statistic does seem, unfortunately, very reasonable. I have been concerned that the new program might mirror the Asia Pacific program. If this information is correct (a big IF) then Marriott's new program will probably mimic DVC's in many respects, but with a longer RTU which will take generations before that is given a glance. But it will be truly a points system, with no home resort advantage.

On the other hand, I can see the appeal to future buyers. You buy enough points to get where you want to go, in the size unit you want to reserve, and you pay only for what you need and, annually, you pay only the MF's for what real benefit you are receiving. Traveling off season- you need less points and pay lower MF's. Family grows in the future- need a bigger unit- no problem- add some more points when you have some extra cash; the system is designed to keep owners coming back for more and more, as they need more points to get the trades they want.

For the next several decades, it appears that Marriott will be running two separate systems. They may have decided that doing that would be logistically easier than trying to superimpose a new system on an old.

This does bring up an interesting question- IF this information is true and, basically, we see the Asia Pacific points program instituted and, assuming many (if not most) current owners decide to stay with their deeded weeks and home resort priority, how will MF's work? I know HOA's set the MF's for individual resorts now. But MF's in a point system are averaged and set system-wide. So I am a little perplexed as to how the two systems can co-exist MF-wise.


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## ondeadlin (Apr 2, 2010)

To believe that only 7 percent of Marriott owners are resale purchasers is to ignore the fact that the majority of MVCI family of resorts is sold out or almost sold out at this point. It's a fairly mature network. Every sale in Park City, Colorado, Boston, the majority of the Florida resorts, the majority of the Hilton Head resorts, etc. is a resale sale.

Those numbers add up very quickly.

Again, is it 50 percent? I don't know, but we're all just guessing (or believing sales staff, which might be worse) and my guess is well above 7 percent.

Unlike many folks around here, I don't have a strong opinion about a points overlay - why get excited until the rules are known? 

But I think the fact that the Marriott network is maturing is part of why they're doing this. They need to find other ways to drive revenue, and getting resale purchasers to pay X-dollars to join the new network is a logical and smart move.


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## Fredm (Apr 2, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Well, I am more likely to believe the 1.8% figure than 50%.  Marriott timeshares have not been around long enough for 1/2 of all units to be resold.  They are selling more on the direct market at a faster rate than they can sell on the resale market.  If your figure was correct, the Marriott timeshare division would not be profitable and could not stay in business.



About 2 years ago I was at a cocktail party with a large number of MVCI folks (I was employed by MVCI for a number of years). 
Among the party goers was a high level manager based in Lakeland.
The conversation turned to the resale market, as he knew I was/am a secondary market broker.

He commented that Marriott's owner base (at the time) consisted of 
40% resale owners. I was surprised at the number. But, the more I thought about it the more it made sense to me. 

If 7% of all sale transactions are conducted in the resale market (I think the number is low, but just assuming), then 42% would be resale owners in just 6 years. Yes, some of them would be a resale of a resale. But, Marriott has been in the biz for 25 years.

Just follow this:

Marriott has ~400,000 owners. 
To take just *one* resort. Desert Springs Villas 1 & 2. 
There are ~30,000 shares. Sales began over 20 years ago.
It is not unreasonable to assume that half the owners have sold (probably much more). Well, if half have sold, that means that ~4% of Marriott's entire base is owned by resale buyers from this resort alone. Marriott has 52 resorts. Some are older than Desert Springs.

I don't know the real number. But, it must be way more than the ridiculous 1.8% thrown out by a sales rep. Personally, I am inclined to believe the 40% figure (which would be higher today, because Marriott has not sold much in the past 2 years, while owners have been selling like crazy).

So, strike one for the veracity of the sales rep.
Strike two is the assertion that Marriott would exclude resale owners (because they only represent 1.8%). 

Well, you get my point.  This rep was blowing smoke. Whatever else may have some basis in real fact has been relegated to meaningless.


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## PerryM (Apr 2, 2010)

*Wet gooey cleanup in isle 4....*



ondeadlin said:


> To believe that only 7 percent of Marriott owners are resale purchasers is to ignore the fact that the majority of MVCI family of resorts is sold out or almost sold out at this point. It's a fairly mature network. Every sale in Park City, Colorado, Boston, the majority of the Florida resorts, the majority of the Hilton Head resorts, etc. is a resale sale.
> 
> Those numbers add up very quickly.
> 
> ...



Good Points!

The biggest question will be how Marriott handles MRPs and Points - they probably will call a Point something else - everyone is already confused and think Marriott is a Point system today when they are talking about MRPs.

So what will a Point be called?  Dot   - bucks   - credits  -  currency - they really should have a contest that we owners can make suggestions and get some prizes.

And how many MRPs = a Point?  You know they will integrate this somehow.  And if they do and we resale owners can exchange Points for MRPs what's the limitation of resales not having MRPs?

And what about airline tickets?  How many Points = a round trip ticket to Maui?  Does Marriott get to move Points into their normal reservation system and rent them out to the public?

This is what happens when you open a can of worms....


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 2, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> To believe that only 7 percent of Marriott owners are resale purchasers is to ignore the fact that the majority of MVCI family of resorts is sold out or almost sold out at this point. It's a fairly mature network. Every sale in Park City, Colorado, Boston, the majority of the Florida resorts, the majority of the Hilton Head resorts, etc. is a resale sale.
> 
> Those numbers add up very quickly.
> 
> ...





Resale purchases outside of Marriott may be a bit higher in light of the fact that Marriott hasn't been taking back any weeks or exercising ROFR over the last year.   However, I don't believe it is anywhere near the 50% mark.



.


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## PerryM (Apr 2, 2010)

*Hey buddy - got a match?*



Fredm said:


> About 2 years ago I was at a cocktail party with a large number of MVCI folks (I was employed by MVCI for a number of years).
> Among the party goers was a high level manager based in Lakeland.
> The conversation turned to the resale market, as he knew I was/am a secondary market broker.
> 
> ...



For the foreseeable future Marriott is going to be THE largest reseller on this planet - until they start to build new condos and sell that inventory.

If I had to guess, today, all day long, 75% of what Marriott sells are recycled weeks.  I have no stats to back that up; just a guess.

So why tick off the supply chain then?  Well I know the answer - lower resale prices is the answer.  Do everything you can to make a resale Marriott less valuable and snap it up for the benefit of their stockholders.  Hello Internal Exchange System.

Timeshare developers have always been in the business of selling something used as new - try that with a used Toyota and see how far you get.

I have always had the definition of a Destination Club to be:

*"8 guys get together and buy a rich guy a condo and then pay him rent to use it"*

That now is going to be surpassed by my new definition of a Marriott Timeshare:
*
"Forget building new timeshares, just recycle existing ones at Firesale prices and we'll supply the matches".*


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## AceValenta (Apr 2, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This is an April Fools, right?



Just quoting the information given to me. Not sure on the validity! I wasn't going to post but I was provided a date of doom, so I thought it was good information to share.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Good Points!
> 
> The biggest question will be how Marriott handles MRPs and Points - they probably will call a Point something else - everyone is already confused and think Marriott is a Point system today when they are talking about MRPs.
> 
> ...



Hilton calls both their HGVC points and HHonors Club points. I don't think Marriott will have an issue calling points points. 

There is a conversion figure for HGVC points to HHonors points but, since I have never made that exchange, I couldn't swear to the exact number. I believe it's something like a 17:1 ratio.

At any rate, you're back to majoring in the minors again. Points, units, credits......who cares. What they call a point won't matter so much as what changes might be made. In short, who really cares what they're called.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

Fredm said:


> About 2 years ago I was at a cocktail party with a large number of MVCI folks (I was employed by MVCI for a number of years).
> Among the party goers was a high level manager based in Lakeland.
> The conversation turned to the resale market, as he knew I was/am a secondary market broker.
> 
> ...



What would be interesting to know is, was the 40% figure the amount of resale sales Marriott produces by selling current owners weeks through their sales staff or, was he talking true resale's outside of the Marriott system? IOW, was the total of all Marriott generated sales 60% new sales from the sales floor and 40% through Marriott's resale unit where owners ask Marriott to sell their week for them?


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

PerryM said:


> For the foreseeable future Marriott is going to be THE largest reseller on this planet - until they start to build new condos and sell that inventory.
> 
> If I had to guess, today, all day long, 75% of what Marriott sells are recycled weeks.  I have no stats to back that up; just a guess.
> 
> ...



So Perry, at this point I have to ask, what are you planning to do about it? Despite all your retoric it appears that Marriott is going to make changes without calling and asking your opinion or for your permission. Sorry they crashed your plans to manipulate your gold week and then resell if for a profit but, it appears you may have played the game to long and could come up on the short end of the deal. Timeshare is a risky business to speculate in. Even you should know if you play the game to long you'll get burned.

OR, it could actually help resale values. If the new program is so bad that no one wants to buy into it then it could create a demand for the older weeks that aren't in any new points based system. I know that, from what some salesman said, I woudln't touch a new contract with Marriott under those terms. I would be shopping the resale market for one of the old fashioned deeded weeks. A badly designed system could inadvertantly push resales and increase their value. Who knows, you might come out smelling like a rose on this deal.


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## Fredm (Apr 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> What would be interesting to know is, was the 40% figure the amount of resale sales Marriott produces by selling current owners weeks through their sales staff or, was he talking true resale's outside of the Marriott system? IOW, was the total of all Marriott generated sales 60% new sales from the sales floor and 40% through Marriott's resale unit where owners ask Marriott to sell their week for them?



I understood it to mean that 40% of Marriott's total owner base was made up of owners who acquired their ownership from other than Marriott. Not in a given year, but the % of the total owner base as of 2 years ago.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> Just quoting the information given to me. Not sure on the validity! I wasn't going to post but I was provided a date of doom, so I thought it was good information to share.



At this point I wouldn't call it a date of doom. At least not until we see what Marriott puts on the table. There have been more than a couple of dates bandied about with nothing happening. I'm not that hopeful that there will be an announcement made in June.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I understood it to mean that 40% of Marriott's total owner base was made up of owners who acquired their ownership from other than Marriott. Not in a given year, but the % of the total owner base as of 2 years ago.



That's what I'm getting at. While you understood it to mean one thing, that might not be what he meant at all. 

In the end, does it really matter?


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## Fredm (Apr 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> That's what I'm getting at. While you understood it to mean one thing, that might not be what he meant at all.
> 
> *In the end, does it really matter?*



Doesn't matter at all. 
I think this line of discussion began because someone posted that a Marriott sales rep said that only 1.8% of Marriott owners were resale owners. Hence, it was of no consequence when they are excluded from the new points program that would only be available to Marriott direct buyers.

The whole sales pitch was a bunch of hooey, IMO.


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2010)

Some very interesting posts....

What I find particularly intriguing is the question of whether or not most people would be willing to give up their deeded ownership rights. Would a high enough point value be enough of a compensation to give up that Platinum Plus week, or perhaps that OF Hawaii week that you paid big bucks for? I guess it will boil down to whether people bought more to use or to trade.

I surmise from Fletch's posts that the sentiment was that higher end week owners would like the increased trade value and be attracted by the prospect of more equitable trading- which I can understand- but would giving up their home resort priority be worth it?

And, I know I've harped a bit on this- but I still wonder about the role and impact on MF's in all of this rumored upheaval.


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## ondeadlin (Apr 2, 2010)

The interesting part about a potential give-you-deed-back overlay system is that Marriott would essentially be creating a Worldmark-like system.

One of the biggest advantages such a system has is controlling MFs. When you spread expenses out over the entire network, it's easier to achieve cost savings and spread the pain of refurbishments.

It would, of course, take a while for such savings to materialize, given the need to merge the two systems over decades.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Some very interesting posts....
> 
> What I find particularly intriguing is the question of whether or not most people would be willing to give up their deeded ownership rights. Would a high enough point value be enough of a compensation to give up that Platinum Plus week, or perhaps that OF Hawaii week that you paid big bucks for? I guess it will boil down to whether people bought more to use or to trade.
> 
> ...



The big question that will remain unanswered until Marriott makes it official is, will this simply be points based reservation system or will it be a RTU style system? Will they go with something like HGVC or DVC? Until we know the answer, it's really hard to estimate the impact it will have on current owners both retail and resale. 

IMHO, if it's just a points based club style internal exchange system, they have my undivided interest in hearing them out. If it's something more along the lines of a RTU or trust based ownership, they'll be hard pressed to get me to seriously consider it. 

We purchased specific units/view at the resorts we own and paid a premium for those particular units. You'll never get my wife to give up our ocean front unit in Florida and you'll never get me to give up our 3 bedroom location in Vegas. We bought those units specifically for those units. If all we wanted was to be in those resorts, we wouldn't have purchased into those resorts. We'd have exchanged in and owned somewhere else. We probably wouldn't be Marriott owners at all but would own in a less expensive system and used that to trade in.  

Now if they offer something along the lines of Hilton, where we can retain the type/style/location we purchased but also have access to the internal exchanges when we decide to go somewhere else, I'm all ears. The important thing to us is retaining the rights to the specifc unit style and views we purchased. 

So here we sit, still waiting to see what Marriott has in mind. I'm ready to see them put something on the table. Somethine we can all dig into and tear apart to see what's good and what's bad. I'm tired of all the rumors and salesman bravado. It's time to stop talking about the labor pains and time to produce the baby.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> The big question that will remain unanswered until Marriott makes it official is, will this simply be points based reservation system or will it be a RTU style system? Will they go with something like HGVC or DVC? Until we know the answer, it's really hard to estimate the impact it will have on current owners both retail and resale.
> 
> IMHO, if it's just a points based club style internal exchange system, they have my undivided interest in hearing them out. If it's something more along the lines of a RTU or trust based ownership, they'll be hard pressed to get me to seriously consider it.
> 
> ...



As usual I agree completely with everything you're saying about the new program, including the bit about it being time to roll this out and let us dissect the real thing.  Although, I remember labor pains to be quite a bit more painful than all this posturing on TUG.  This is just thinking out loud, painless even without the epidural.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> As usual I agree completely with everything you're saying about the new program, including the bit about it being time to roll this out and let us dissect the real thing.  Although, I remember labor pains to be quite a bit more painful than all this posturing on TUG.  This is just thinking out loud, painless even without the epidural.



I bet you've never tossed the baby out with the bath water either.


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2010)

Of course, that's assuming that the delivery is imminent and not just in the contemplation phase.


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## PerryM (Apr 2, 2010)

*I tell ya - I get no respect....*



dougp26364 said:


> So Perry, at this point I have to ask, what are you planning to do about it? Despite all your retoric it appears that Marriott is going to make changes without calling and asking your opinion or for your permission. Sorry they crashed your plans to manipulate your gold week and then resell if for a profit but, it appears you may have played the game to long and could come up on the short end of the deal. Timeshare is a risky business to speculate in. Even you should know if you play the game to long you'll get burned.
> 
> *OR, it could actually help resale values.* If the new program is so bad that no one wants to buy into it then it could create a demand for the older weeks that aren't in any new points based system. I know that, from what some salesman said, I woudln't touch a new contract with Marriott under those terms. I would be shopping the resale market for one of the old fashioned deeded weeks. A badly designed system could inadvertantly push resales and increase their value. Who knows, you might come out smelling like a rose on this deal.



I doubt all those salesreps pushing this Marriott rumor had the idea that resales would actually increase in value - I'd bet they think the opposite.

We have an interesting comparison between Marriott who does resales to make a profit and Wyndham who does not acknowledge that resales exist and would never buy resale units to recycle them.  Hence the reason Marriott has a ROFR written into the sales contracts and Wyndham doesn't.

Marriott resales used to float around 60% of current sales prices with the ROFR being exercised around that level.

Wyndham has no ROFR and doesn't want to buy resales and their resales float around 5% of current sales prices.  Wyndham has done everything in its powers to kill the resale market and succeeded.  But to what ends?  If you have the knowledge and courage you would never buy developer but resale for 5 cents on the sales dollar; it has blown up in their face.

Marriott, on the other hand, needs to buy resales to keep their sales offices open.  I believe that with the ROFR not exercised much they witnessed falling prices and more profit for them and will set the ROFR much lower when they need inventory in the future.

So you've got that going on and a barrier to entry with an initiation fee that will be subtracted from resale prices - certainly Marriott won't be exercising the ROFR at the old levels - they will lower it by that initiation fee.

What will be the final new ROFR level Marriott picks?  I haven't a clue but I'm guessing Marriott resales will fall and we will get back to the old argument of whether the ROFR is a good or bad thing.

Finally, no body listens to me - that's why I'm always laughing at how worked up some folks on TUG get - they must actually think that other folks listen to me....


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## ondeadlin (Apr 2, 2010)

Perry, you were influential in getting me to A) dump my Streamside week before the bottom fell out; and B) try Worldmark!


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## tombo (Apr 2, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Finally, no body listens to me - that's why I'm always laughing at how worked up some folks on TUG get - they must actually think that other folks listen to me....



Heck Perry people read your posts for many reasons. Sometimes when I am having a bad day at work and need a pick me up, I read some of your posts claimng that ROFR helps increase the sales price of timeshares and I find myself laughing out loud. :hysterical:


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I doubt all those salesreps pushing this Marriott rumor had the idea that resales would actually increase in value - I'd bet they think the opposite.
> 
> We have an interesting comparison between Marriott who does resales to make a profit and Wyndham who does not acknowledge that resales exist and would never buy resale units to recycle them.  Hence the reason Marriott has a ROFR written into the sales contracts and Wyndham doesn't.
> 
> ...





I think the words Marriott needs are a little strong. I'd probably go with Marriott recognized the value of repurchasing it's own inventory at lower prices.

As to the arguement of ROFR being good or bad it's simple in my mind. ROFR is good for sellers and bad for buyers. It forces the resale price above what the market would bear if not of the big player in the game. 

I'm imagining that sales have fallen off dramatically in the last year. At this time, Marriott doesn't need to add additional inventory. That inventory is going to come with expenses and, if they don't think they can move it quickly enough or rent it out, why would they want to hold it only to have to pay MF's on it. If Marriott needed inventory they certainly wouldn't have stopped construction on virtually every project they had going and stopped ROFR at the same time. I believe the ROFR point was a point of profit, nothing more and nothing less. 

And of course salesmen are going to sell this as a horrible thing for resale buyers. You expect them to admit that buying resale is the way to go? The turn the table anyway they can to make a resale purchase look as bad as possible. 

Resale buyers are generally buyers who know the system and know what they want. ROFR might be dead but, if Marriott lays an egg with any new plan and, if they don't sell deeded weeks and home resort/view advantage, resale prices of those older weeks could climb as demand for that type of week could go up. 

Does Marriott care? I don't think they care as much as you believe. I really don't think the resale market enters into their plans nearly as much as you want to believe.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 2, 2010)

tombo said:


> Heck Perry people read your posts for many reasons. Sometimes when I am having a bad day at work and need a pick me up, I read some of your posts claimng that ROFR helps increase the sales price of timeshares and I find myself laughing out loud. :hysterical:



If it doesn't, then way has the resale price of Marriott weeks gone through the floor since Marriott stopped exercising ROFR and, why has Hilton's resale prices remained reasonably high at properties where ROFR is exercised?

Laugh if you want but, when a corportation enters the resale game as a player and has the right to take any deal it see's as profitable, prices go up. They snatch up supply in the game of supply and demand. When they stop buying, supply increases but demand remanins flat. When that happens prices go down. 

Now if you're talking the retail developer price of a timeshare, then I'm laughing right along with you. I don't believe that ROFR has any significant impact on developer pricing. Only on the resale side is there a difference.


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## tombo (Apr 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> If it doesn't, then way has the resale price of Marriott weeks gone through the floor since Marriott stopped exercising ROFR and, why has Hilton's resale prices remained reasonably high at properties where ROFR is exercised?
> 
> Laugh if you want but, when a corportation enters the resale game as a player and has the right to take any deal it see's as profitable, prices go up. They snatch up supply in the game of supply and demand. When they stop buying, supply increases but demand remanins flat. When that happens prices go down.
> 
> Now if you're talking the retail developer price of a timeshare, then I'm laughing right along with you. I don't believe that ROFR has any significant impact on developer pricing. Only on the resale side is there a difference.



No reason to rehash it here, but in this thread ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116645&page=6 ) I used detailed facts from Dioxide's site to show that the prices of marriott resale prices fell farther WHILE Marriott was activelly exercising ROFR than they fell after Marriott stopped using ROFR (prices fell 40% during the last 5 months that Marriott used ROFR, and they only fell 10% more after Marriott ceased using ROFR to prop up prices :rofl: ). You have to admit that to have figures showing that the prices fell farther and faster during active ROFR than they fell after all ROFR ceased is funny. :whoopie:


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2010)

tombo said:


> No reason to rehash it here, but in this thread ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116645&page=6 ) I used detailed facts from Dioxide's site to show that the prices of marriott resale prices fell farther WHILE Marriott was activelly exercising ROFR than they fell after Marriott stopped using ROFR (prices fell 40% during the last 5 months that Marriott used ROFR, and they only fell 10% more after Marriott ceased using ROFR to prop up prices :rofl: ). You have to admit that to have figures showing that the prices fell farther and faster during active ROFR than they fell after all ROFR ceased is funny. :whoopie:


The reality is that nothing was going to help the resale market once the country was becoming gripped by the recession. Unless ROFR is consistently and actively invoked, during a recession prices will enter a free for all, which is what happened. During the five months or so before Marriott stopped exercising ROFR prices fell because the number of desperate sellers increased, sellers needed to sell and were willing to sell for less, and Marriott didn't have the demand for (and thus didn't buy back) a large portion of those cheaper weeks. Thus, prices continued to fall until they hit a new lower price point.

Had Marriott been very active in their ROFR the landscape may have been different.


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## Latravel (Apr 2, 2010)

FlyerBobcat said:


> Heidi,
> Can you expand or clarify what you mean by the part that I put in *bold*...  Maybe I'm confused at the two "they" words...  Thanks



Good catch...I shouldn't post so late at night.  Marriott is selling more on the direct market at a faster rate than can be sold on the resale market.


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## Latravel (Apr 2, 2010)

If 40 to 50% of Marriott owners are resale purchasers (sorry to go back to this point) I'd watch out if I were you!  Marriott is going to find some way to make money off this group of owners since they didn't make money off you in the beginning.  That's a lot of, what should I call it, leakage? of profit.  If this number is true, this is a ripe group to tap into somehow.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 2, 2010)

Latravel said:


> If 40 to 50% of Marriott owners are resale purchasers (sorry to go back to this point) I'd watch out if I were you!  Marriott is going to find some way to make money off this group of owners since they didn't make money off you in the beginning.  That's a lot of, what should I call it, leakage? of profit.  If this number is true, this is a ripe group to tap into somehow.



Every year, resale owners pay MFs, that they get a piece of.  Every time resale owners go to a MVC property, they spend money there, which Marriott gets a piece of.  When resale owner lock off or change reservations, they get money.  They make money off of resale owners every year.  If they were smart, they would make a point system and get as many owers in (including resalers) so they can earn a more yearly.  Huge upfront costs will keep people away.


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> Every year, resale owners pay MFs, that they get a piece of.  Every time resale owners go to a MVC property, they spend money there, which Marriott gets a piece of.  When resale owner lock off or change reservations, they get money.  They make money off of resale owners every year.  If they were smart, they would make a point system and get as many owers in (including resalers) so they can earn a more yearly.  Huge upfront costs will keep people away.



Don't forget to add that past resales are just that- in the past. I think the way Marriott decides to treat current resale owners will depend on what they think is in their best interests. On one hand, they can extract a higher fee to join any new system, thus imposing a penalty; this may generate a small amount of revenue, but is apt to create ill will as well. Or, they will recognize past resales as opportunities for direct sales already having been lost, but treat those owners as valued customers and as another market segment to join any new program; they benefit from increasing initial membership to get the ball rolling and from keeping a customer base happy and maintaining that relationship with an eye towards future sales. Since the success of any new system depends a lot on how quickly they can entice people to join, I think they will offer the option to everyone because it is just a better business decision for them.

I am inclined to think that any new program will be geared towards tipping the balance of the direct versus resale decision. Since they stand to make a lot of money if they can divert future resale buyers to purchasing direct, I think that it is likely that any new system will favor direct purchasers going forward. Whether that means that future resale purchasers will be excluded from joining (which I think would have other market ramifications which might be bad for Marriott in the long run) or that the trading for Reward points will be augmented somehow, I do believe there will be some more marketable distinction. Ideally, they would make the perk of trading for Reward points the perk it once was ans was designed to be; however, excluding future resale purchases from any new program would be easy and profitable int he short term (although it might have more far reaching impact wrt resale value and the way that may or may not impact direct sales as time goes on).


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## davidvel (Apr 2, 2010)

Latravel said:


> If 40 to 50% of Marriott owners are resale purchasers (sorry to go back to this point) I'd watch out if I were you!  Marriott is going to find some way to make money off this group of owners since they didn't make money off you in the beginning.  That's a lot of, what should I call it, leakage? of profit.  If this number is true, this is a ripe group to tap into somehow.


I don't get it. Is the developer that I bought my home from 7 years ago "going to find some way to make money off" my new neighbor who recently bought the house next door "resale," since the developer made nothing off him?  

So every time someone buys a resale house/condo the poor developer considers it lost profit? So my new neighbor has to worry that the developer who sold the home new 7 years ago considers him ripe to be tapped into? 

 I just don't understand the logic, nor the ability to "tap into" anything.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 3, 2010)

davidvel said:


> I don't get it. Is the developer that I bought my home from 7 years ago "going to find some way to make money off" my new neighbor who recently bought the house next door "resale," since the developer made nothing off him?
> 
> So every time someone buys a resale house/condo the poor developer considers it lost profit? So my new neighbor has to worry that the developer who sold the home new 7 years ago considers him ripe to be tapped into?
> 
> I just don't understand the logic, nor the ability to "tap into" anything.



No, they consider it compitition. 

Timeshares are not the same as full ownership condo's or homes. Timeshares do not appreciate in value like a full ownership condo or home would under normal econmic situations. 

It's not in the timeshare developers best interest for resales to be a fraction of of developer pricing. On the other hand, it can work out well for the developer if they sell at full price, purchase back at the lower resale prices when someone want to get out and then resell that same timeshare at retail pricing.


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## Latravel (Apr 3, 2010)

davidvel said:


> I don't get it. Is the developer that I bought my home from 7 years ago "going to find some way to make money off" my new neighbor who recently bought the house next door "resale," since the developer made nothing off him?
> 
> So every time someone buys a resale house/condo the poor developer considers it lost profit? So my new neighbor has to worry that the developer who sold the home new 7 years ago considers him ripe to be tapped into?
> 
> I just don't understand the logic, nor the ability to "tap into" anything.



If someone is looking to buy a timeshare and they decide to buy resale, Marriott just lost a sale.  Ideally for Marriott, you buy all timeshares from them as well as resales.  If you don't, that's a lost opportunity to make a sale.  If too many people go to resale, they will reinvestigate their incentives or the program in general.  Timeshares are not like real estate as you compare it.  Timeshares are more like commodities.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 3, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> No, they consider it compitition.
> 
> Timeshares are not the same as full ownership condo's or homes. Timeshares do not appreciate in value like a full ownership condo or home would under normal econmic situations.
> 
> It's not in the timeshare developers best interest for resales to be a fraction of of developer pricing. On the other hand, it can work out well for the developer if they sell at full price, purchase back at the lower resale prices when someone want to get out and then resell that same timeshare at retail pricing.



I dont see see this either.  It is a deed and is taxed like real estate, so says my tax bill from CA.  It falls in value, but many here liken it to a car, which also falls in value.  If Marriott does not want resales and wants to sell every single unit, including selling the same deeds 2 or 3 times, they should buy back every unit an owner does not want.  If they dont, i dont understand how a company gets upset about a resale when they already made a profit on the deed.  They still make money with MFs and lock offs, etc.   I know it is the way most TS company do business (save Disney) but it does not mean that it is right.  Also, this brings me back to a point system.  Lets say that there is 100k resales owners (and yes, no one knows how many there are out there), if you want to make long term money on them, let them into the point system at a price point (or none) that will induce them to join so they can give their money to Marriott every year.  Making a buy in cost (or not allowing them in) wherein 0% to 10% join does not give Marriott additional steady income for the next 20 years.


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## PerryM (Apr 3, 2010)

*Mental problems are best solved by trained professionals....*



Latravel said:


> *If someone is looking to buy a timeshare and they decide to buy resale, Marriott just lost a sale.*  Ideally for Marriott, you buy all timeshares from them as well as resales.  If you don't, that's a lost opportunity to make a sale.  If too many people go to resale, they will reinvestigate their incentives or the program in general.  *Timeshares are not like real estate as you compare it.  Timeshares are more like commodities*.



How many times does the developer get to sell the same time slice over and over and over again?  They sold it initially, made a boat load of money and now want to do it again?  If so, that's a mental problem on their part.

Marriott does not have a buyback program - i.e. EVERY Marriott owner can NOT instantly get cash for their unit which Marriott must buy back.  Sure they act as the broker and charge 40% and occasionally will exercise the ROFR and buy a unit if they believe it can be flipped for a quick buck or two.

Marriott is like ANY owner - they run ads, find prospective buyers, conclude a deal, hire a closing agent (themselves) and collect the money or find someone who will finance the deal.

Corporate greed might have the salesreps and management view their owners as pond scum and take a sale out of their mouths but that's a mental problem on their part.

Marriott has every right to jack up their sales prices - that's a mental problem too - so are imaginary friends like their new exchange program that will rescue them.

I have said the following for about 10 years now:

"The ONLY reason the timeshare industry exists is because ignorant consumers make foolish decisions".

The problem is that the consumer is becoming smarter and smarter and that's something the timeshare industry has a problem with.  Each morning they pray for dumb folks to come marching through their sales gallery.  Those folks don't have any money now and that's what's killing Marriott.

Smart folks use the internet for just about everything now - they simply time in the word "timeshare" and TUG appears as #11, "Timeshare help" TUG is #2.

The smart folks have money and want to use it efficiently and so enter the resale market where Marriott can't be found.  Marriott ONLY appears in the NEW timeshare market where full price is charged - all their owners operate in the RESALE market at a much lower price.

This is what's so crazy about developers - they cry when they don't compete in the resale market and blame it all on the owners - that's a mental problem too.

(Thanks for the few folks that listen to my keyboard pounding away) 

P.S.

For those of you who don't believe timeshares are not real estate try not paying your property tax and find out what happens......


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## jlf58 (Apr 3, 2010)

This is just my guess, I would say with the collapse of the ROFR, it's probably about 6-8% 






JimIg23 said:


> Only Marriott knows the exact number of resale owners there are in the system.  I doubt that information is subject to any public filing, so we will never know.  I dont think I would trust a salesperson's number because they have a reason to down play the number.


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## PerryM (Apr 3, 2010)

Fletch said:


> This is just my guess, I would say with the collapse of the ROFR, it's probably about 6-8%



Any guess what percentage of current sales, by Marriott, are from recycled units?  E.g. Marriott sells 100 units today around the country, what percentage of those are from developer inventory which has never been sold.

Thanks,


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## cncarruthers (Apr 10, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Hilton calls both their HGVC points and HHonors Club points. I don't think Marriott will have an issue calling points points.
> 
> There is a conversion figure for HGVC points to HHonors points but, since I have never made that exchange, I couldn't swear to the exact number. I believe it's something like a 17:1 ratio.
> 
> At any rate, you're back to majoring in the minors again. Points, units, credits......who cares. What they call a point won't matter so much as what changes might be made. In short, who really cares what they're called.



Conversion rate is 1:25 HGVC to HHPoints


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## kschauberger (Apr 16, 2010)

I just received a call to talk about a new program coming up.  They would like to sit down with us at the end of the month.  Is it possible they are trying to sell us their new point program, or something else.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 16, 2010)

kschauberger said:


> I just received a call to talk about a new program coming up.  They would like to sit down with us at the end of the month.  Is it possible they are trying to sell us their new point program, or something else.



Marriott called you to come to your home for an interview? I'd be a little suspicous of that if it were me. I recently had a company posing as Marriott wanting to talk to me about our Grand Chateau ownership. In the end, they never directly stated they were Marriott. After a brief converstation it became obvious it was a scammer and not Marriott calling me.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 16, 2010)

I agree, be careful.  Do they want to meet at a Marriott where you can verify with a Marriott manager that they work for marriott?


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