# PE and UR Merger Discussion



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 26, 2007)

I am starting this new thread because the other ones are getting too long and off topic.

Here are a few topics I would like to see discussed

1. New information on the PE/UR merger.
2. Is it better to join PE now or UR now?
3. Guesses as to how the merger will impact members.
4. Anything else TUGers want to add


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 26, 2007)

I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday).  If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 26, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.



the 3 most interesting questions to me seem to be >



Kagehitokiri said:


> 1. how will reciprocity work for current/new members?
> 2. what will the entry price (1st plan of 1st tier) be?
> 3. for any unlimited usage, will there be daily fee?


----------



## vivalour (Sep 26, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday).  If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.



Perfect timing. Thank you for asking. Curious about the following: 
*what is the current paid membership in each category that UR are bringing into the merger?
*is this merger a "fait accompli"?
*what is the business goal(s) of the new entity?
Have fun -- hope they serve some tasty nibbles....should give you a good take on the movers and shakers behind the scenes.


----------



## LTTravel (Sep 26, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston tomorrow night (Thursday).  If anyone has any specific questions please let me know and I will try to get some answers.



I would like to know

1. How many homes are in each tier currently
2. How many homes will be in each tier after the merge and will there be a shift of some of the homes between tiers after the merge
3. How many homes are currently and after the merger be owned/leased
4. What happened to the MAP (Member Appreciation Program)
and more importantly as K is asking
5. How will reciprocity work for UR members
6. How will they integrate a program at PE which includes more flexible booking and unlimited nights with UR's more rigid booking and limited nights?

And as an aside are they working to merge with any other DC's

I don't think that they will give you specific answers to any questions but any information would be helpful.


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 26, 2007)

> How will they integrate a program at PE which includes more flexible booking and unlimited nights with UR's more rigid booking and limited nights?



From what I have heard, unlimited nights will disappear after the merger, except for current PE members who will be grandfathered in... new members will have a set number of days, as per URs current model.  Supposedly, the more flexible booking system of PE will be extended to everyone, although the minimum may move from 1 day to 2 or possibly 3 days...



> 1. how will reciprocity work for current/new members?



What I am hearing is that reciprocity will only exist for current PE members... 

So, if what I am hearing is correct, seems like a strong incentive to join PE before the merger, as that is the only way to get unlimited usage and reciprocity 'grandfathered' in (as well as avoiding the 25 - 30% price hikes)...


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 26, 2007)

i agree it makes sense unlimited nights is ending. question is more for those joining before merger.

however, *how* can they advertise "able to vacation at more than 140 hidden gems" if theyre getting rid of reciprocity?

(http://www.starttheexperience.com/)

im also very curious about how cheap the "bronze" plan will be for the $1MM tier..

lets do some price summaries/estimates.. >
50k 14 > 65k 14 ? (with 1 wk reciprocity = best DC deal?)
125k 14 > 165k 14
200k 14 > 265k 14

reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.

OR that like a few others have said, for different reasons, that theyre going to sell off the $800K tier to HCC or something.. that would again make their current advertising pretty much a flat out lie though...

i think those who have raised questions - about  backgrounds of officers as well as general  plans - are also going in the right direction, because of these sorts of issues. transparency seems to be completely lacking right now. especially since theyve been working on this for so long. even those talking to either club right now seem to be getting incomplete/inconsistent information.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 26, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.
> transparency seems to be completely lacking right now. especially since theyve been working on this for so long. even those talking to either club right now seem to be getting incomplete/inconsistent information.



Hey K, actually my impression has been that they (PE) DO want people to join pre-merger. I received an email outlining the incentives -- most of which were already discussed here -- and quite straightforward answers to questions I asked so far. No phone calls from them or pressure though, just responses to our emails so far.

To those who compare DCs to a golf club: I don't know how a golf club works -- though I once belonged to a tennis club -- but unlike DCs, they were somehow rooted in a community and the investors/owners were known to people who bought in. In this virtual world of DCs you never know how much is smoke and mirrors, if ya get my drift.... I think that is why some people like me are a bit gun-shy.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 26, 2007)

i dont recall seeing discussion of transparency issues in this forum, other than related to this merger. perhaps people havent asked the right questions, but as i said, i dont get why theyre not hyping the nitty gritty details more, if they really want people to join before the merger is completed. theyre not just lazy/incompetent are they? 

my real point is this whole thing seems kind of odd to me, and i agree with those asking questions about the business plan.

another thought - who gets access to the hotels, if not everyone?


----------



## LTTravel (Sep 26, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> From what I have heard, unlimited nights will disappear after the merger, except for current PE members who will be grandfathered in... new members will have a set number of days, as per URs current model.  Supposedly, the more flexible booking system of PE will be extended to everyone, although the minimum may move from 1 day to 2 or possibly 3 days...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two  club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that. Many members of UR have joined at a lower price point and were offered 80% current value on leaving. May p--- them off and encourage them to leave. I think that they have already thought this out and just have not announced it yet. Clearly this is an important point that must have been discussed within the merger talks


----------



## Sherpa (Sep 26, 2007)

Golfnbeach, I'm planning on attending too - so will be good to meet you.

(Am also interested to see how the new hotel looks - after conversion from the old Charles St Jail)


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 26, 2007)

Sherpa said:


> Golfnbeach, I'm planning on attending too - so will be good to meet you.
> 
> (Am also interested to see how the new hotel looks - after conversion from the old Charles St Jail)



I look forward to meeting you as well.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 27, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two  club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that. Many members of UR have joined at a lower price point and were offered 80% current value on leaving. May p--- them off and encourage them to leave. I think that they have already thought this out and just have not announced it yet. Clearly this is an important point that must have been discussed within the merger talks



In addition to some answers on these details, the most important factor for me now is openness about their business plan. They don't have to tell all, of course, since they are not a public company, but it would sure help me come to a decision. 

Puff Puff made this point in relation to HCC in an earlier post: "Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec. Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained. The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far. I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans."


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 27, 2007)

> Wouldn't the current UR members revolt if only PE members had unlimited nights and reciprocity. That would mean that the merger has treated the two club members differently and it is an uneven merger. Was the membership in PE worth more that a membership in UR? UR members would certainly not agree to that and I don't think that UR management would agree to that.



I can see UR members being upset, but I can also see the point of "every current member of both clubs will continue to get the deal that they signed up for"... i.e. the UR members who signed up for 14 nights for $X/yr will continue to get 14 nts for $X/yr...  In addition, the majority of the UR members are former T&H members who would really have no basis for complaint, as they were 'saved' by UR when they had no other place to turn, and were brought into UR without paying any deposit over what they had lost to T&H... 



> however, how can they advertise "able to vacation at more than 140 hidden gems" if theyre getting rid of reciprocity?
> 
> (http://www.starttheexperience.com/)



PE is advertising this; I don't know that UR is advertising this... And anyone who joins PE now, before the merger, WILL have access to all three clubs through reciprocity, even if reciprocity is stopped for new members after the merger... at which point I'm sure that they would change the advertising... But it is true at this point, even if only for current members and people that join w/i the next 6 - 8 weeks...



> reciprocity and entry pricing seem like HUGE issues to me, and i just cant believe theyre not addressing it. thats why it sure seems to me like they do NOT want people joining before the merger is completed.



I think that they are using the uncertainty of these issues to drive pre-merger sales... after all, if you join before the merger you know what YOUR pricing will be after the merger (since they are still grandfathering in new members) and you'll know that YOU will still have reciprocity... and you know that if you wait, the prices will be going up 20 - 30%, although there may be a less expensive plan available after the merger with fewer nights...


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> In addition, the majority of the UR members are former T&H members who would really have no basis for complaint, as they were 'saved' by UR when they had no other place to turn, and were brought into UR without paying any deposit over what they had lost to T&H...



I believe that this assumption on the part of UR would be a HUGE mistake.  Basic human nature tells us that UR should not play the "we saved you from T&H and now you are second class members and you will like it" card!



> PE is advertising this; I don't know that UR is advertising this... And anyone who joins PE now, before the merger, WILL have access to all three clubs through reciprocity, even if reciprocity is stopped for new members after the merger... at which point I'm sure that they would change the advertising... But it is true at this point, even if only for current members and people that join w/i the next 6 - 8 weeks...



I received a pitch from UR two days ago which did not even mention the impending UR/PE merger! 




> I think that they are using the uncertainty of these issues to drive pre-merger sales



I think we have all learned from Timeshare Purchasing 101 that you NEVER buy if you are uncertain about what you are buying AND what you are buying is not in WRITING!



> ... after all, if you join before the merger you know what YOUR pricing will be after the merger (since they are still grandfathering in new members) and you'll know that YOU will still have reciprocity... and you know that if you wait, the prices will be going up 20 - 30%, although there may be a less expensive plan available after the merger with fewer nights...



You DO know what the pricing is but you DON'T know WHAT you are buying!  _(< I love this "eek"!)_


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

vivalour said:


> Puff Puff made this point in relation to HCC in an earlier post: "Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec. Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained. The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far. I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans."



Sounds almost like a Travelguy quote. 



travelguy said:


> Those of us who became involved in High Country Club in the early stages were in a similar situation.  The HCC business plan was different and the target demographic was different than the generally accepted DC business plan.  Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec.  Their business model made sense once it was presented and explained.  The result is that many of us joined and HCC has exceeded their projections so far.  I believe that a big reason that they are successful is their openness with their business plans.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 27, 2007)

vivalour said:


> "Most of us made the decision to join HCC after reviewing their 10 year plan, projections, and frank discussions with their financial exec.



Oh sorry travelguy, could be my blurry eyes at 6 a.m., anyway, you all spout such gems of wisdom, they're almost worth putting into a Book for the Befuddled about DCs....

After all the glowing reviews here, I wish HCC fit in better with our family's travel/vacation needs -- we'd join today -- and 2 clubs would be overkill in our case I'm afraid...we still have a boy to put through private high school and college....


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 27, 2007)

vineyarder, you are suggesting that 400 PE members will have access to every property, while 800 UR members will only have access to a fraction of them. that would make absolutely no sense to me, as its giving PE members the better end of the deal when they are half the size of UR. if there is any imbalance, it would be toward UR, not PE. especially with the maintaining of unlimited usage for PE members, even with daily fee or high annual fee, it can still be very "costly" for the club if members use it.

so wheres the benefit for UR with PE getting those 2 things? only a couple properties, that are shared with PE along with current UR properties, therefore decreasing total avail for UR members...


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

vivalour said:


> Oh sorry travelguy, could be my blurry eyes at 6 a.m., anyway, you all spout such gems of wisdom, they're almost worth putting into a Book for the Befuddled about DCs....



No problem.  I actually read the quote and thought it was quite good ... and then I thought is sounded familiar.  I had to go back into my own posts to determine if it was my quote because I wasn't sure.  



> After all the glowing reviews here, I wish HCC fit in better with our family's travel/vacation needs -- we'd join today -- and 2 clubs would be overkill in our case I'm afraid...we still have a boy to put through private high school and college....



Just out of curiosity, what is it about HCC that doesn't fit your families travel plans?  

FWIW - It seems that with the outrageous costs of private high school and college you'd want to really consider the low cost of HCC.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> vineyarder, you are suggesting that 400 PE members will have access to every property, while 800 UR members will only have access to a fraction of them. that would make absolutely no sense to me, as its giving PE members the better end of the deal when they are half the size of UR. if there is any imbalance, it would be toward UR, not PE. especially with the maintaining of unlimited usage for PE members, even with daily fee or high annual fee, it can still be very "costly" for the club if members use it.
> 
> so wheres the benefit for UR with PE getting those 2 things? only a couple properties, that are shared with PE along with current UR properties, therefore decreasing total avail for UR members...



Great Point!  How will the reservation policy be structured and how will it affect availability once the clubs merge.  If they have over 300 members between the 3 PE tiers with unlimited access and the ability to book 1, 2 or 3 nights at any time up to 2 years in advance, the new post merger PE/UR members and UR current members are going to be very discouraged with the availability.  There’s going to be countless times when a UR or new PE/UR members are going to try and book a week somewhere and an old PE member has booked 2 nights in the middle of peak season.  There’s no way they can keep members happy when there are 2 very different reservation policies and the current PE members have a huge advantage over new and current UR members.

Yet another indication that this is either not thought out in advance or we're not getting the whole story!


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 27, 2007)

travelguy, i wish the deals HCC has gotten were for actual beachfront (like PE) or ski-in/ski-out (detached single family) ... i also question why they only got 1 villa in mexico, but 4 condos. whatever the criteria for selection, its just not appealing to me. i feel the same way about ER, and some other clubs.

bill's point below is another major one, that definitely came up a lot in the PE vs HCC threads.

back to merger, i dont think theyre lazy/incompetent. thats what makes me question whats going on. to summarize my previous point, i see 3 HUGE downsides, and little to NO upside for current UR members, based on what vineyarder (currently PE) was suggesting for what might happen.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't want to change the topic being discussed, but some of the potential merger problems may be a direct result of the ability to book a flexible number of nights in a property vs having to book an entire week like HCC.

I LOVE the thought of having the ability to book a set number of nights of use such as 4 nights in Orlando, 9 nights in Colorado, 2 nights in NYC, but this creates great inefficiencies in the reservations system.

I personally think that a week based system like HCC makes it MOST fair to everyone because it limits the reservation to 1/52 possibilities per property with uniform check-in/out days.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> travelguy, i wish the deals HCC has gotten were for actual beachfront (like PE) or ski-in/ski-out (detached single family) ... i also question why they only got 1 villa in mexico, but 4 condos. whatever the criteria for selection, its just not appealing to me. i feel the same way about ER, and some other clubs.



I've stayed at or visited over 10 HCC properties that were both detached single-family homes and condos at both beaches and ski slopes.  I believe each type of property has it's own appeal and often that appeal is immediately apparent in person and could never translate to the HCC web site or a description.  I'm facing that now with a review I'm working on for the HCC Hilton Head Island home which is NOT beach front BUT I love it!  (and yes, I've tried throwing the lightest beach chair I could find and didn't throw it anywhere close to the water).



> back to merger, i dont think theyre lazy/incompetent. thats what makes me question whats going on. to summarize my previous point, i see 3 HUGE downsides, and little to NO upside for current UR members, based on what vineyarder (currently PE) was suggesting for what might happen.



I agree.  I can't figure out why UR has agreed to this merger based upon what we've seen so far.  Is it because they went in over their head financially to pull off the T&H takeover?  (Has anyone seen a recent UR balance sheet?)  I admit I've done little more than observe the TUG discussions about the PE/UR merger but it seems like something else is afoot!  Although I will say that at least we know PE and UR are real and ongoing concerns which we don't know about DHH!


----------



## saluki (Sep 27, 2007)

Doug-

Just curious...are you an investor in HCC in addition to being a member?


----------



## LTTravel (Sep 27, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I personally think that a week based system like HCC makes it MOST fair to everyone because it limits the reservation to 1/52 possibilities per property with uniform check-in/out days.



For some reason, the flexible booking systme of DVC works. I think it is because there are many units, many different resorts and they own some of the units allowing them to rent out the extra. Other timeshares are on the weekly system. I agree that I would love the flexible booking in a DC, but this would be very inefficient because even the largest DC has only 300 homes in 35 destinations but DVC has many rooms in limited destinations. For the smaller DC's it would be a disaster.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I don't want to change the topic being discussed, but some of the potential merger problems may be a direct result of the ability to book a flexible number of nights in a property vs having to book an entire week like HCC.
> 
> I LOVE the thought of having the ability to book a set number of nights of use such as 4 nights in Orlando, 9 nights in Colorado, 2 nights in NYC, but this creates great inefficiencies in the reservations system.
> 
> I personally think that a week based system like HCC makes it MOST fair to everyone because it limits the reservation to 1/52 possibilities per property with uniform check-in/out days.



Agreed.  It would be great to book nights instead of weeks but not at the expense of the GREAT availability and fairness of the HCC reservation system right now.  I do believe there is a way to "weight" their reservation policies so that both availability and access are improved at all levels of membership but that's another story for another thread.

And now back to the PE/UR merger discussion ....


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

saluki said:


> Doug-
> 
> Just curious...are you an investor in HCC in addition to being a member?



No, but I play one on TUG.  

Actually, I belive it's a great move to be an investor in a DC that you've reserached and become a member in.  IMHO - This is a much better "pure play" investment than the "equity" DCs as far as ROI.

I was very interested in HCC investment during their last PPM earlier this year.  However, I purchase my commercial properties 100% financed and was in the process of finalizing $3M of financing for a project closing at the end of this year.  As a result, I wasn't in a position of take a chunk of cash and park it in a HCC investment at that time.  However, I learned a good bit about HCC and how they are structured financially during my reasearch of the PPM.  I can tell you that other HCC members on the TUG board (don't ask me for names) are investors.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 27, 2007)

travelguy said:


> I can tell you that other HCC members on the TUG board (don't ask me for names) are investors.




In the interest of full disclosure I think any TUG members who are investors in HCC should let everyone know.  This has me very concerned.:annoyed:


----------



## saluki (Sep 27, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> In the interest of full disclosure I think any TUG members who are investors in HCC should let everyone know.  This has me very concerned.:annoyed:



I agree. I think it would be only fair to disclose that info.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> In the interest of full disclosure I think any TUG members who are investors in HCC should let everyone know.  This has me very concerned.:annoyed:



Since my innocent comment started this witch hunt I'll further comment on it.  This is a PUBLIC board and everyone is invited to post their opinions and comments.  I don't recall any TUG policies requiring a poster to disclose all their possible financial affiliations for "disclosure" purposes.  Many posters don't even disclose the timeshares they own or the DCs that they belong to.  If posters choose to post their alignments, interests, opinions and choices then I'm all for it.  However, I don't believe it appropriate to make a general call for any type of exposure of a posters personal involvements let alone be concerned about it.  Take whatever is posted for what it's worth instead of being concerned about the motivation or deceit of the poster. 

This issue has the potential to turn the board hostile and I strongly advise against calling anyone out based upon their financial involvement in a timeshare or DC.  I actually considered deleting my original post which had the quote about HCC investors because of the calls for exposure of the HCC investors.  I've decided to leave it so everyone can see the context in which it was written.

All DC members have a certain interest in increasing the membership of the DC.  Many of us have been very up front about the concept that additional members means more properties, better financial health of the DC and more valuable memberships.  To say that DC investors (both pure play and equity DC members) are posting based on financial motivation is to say that all of us DC members have slanted our posts due to our gain from persuading more members to join.

I believe that the vast majority of DC members, if not all of them, who post do so because of the high level of satisfaction and excitement about this new and increasingly enjoyable form of luxury vacation travel!


----------



## saluki (Sep 27, 2007)

Doug-

As much as I value your insight & knowledge (& killer property reviews!), I have to disagree with your take on this disclosure issue. Any DC investor writing here touting their DC should, in my opinion, let it be known that they are an investor.

Otherwise, it is tantamount to someone pumping a stock that they own without dicslosing that information. I am not trying to make a mountain out of what is most certainly a mole hill here, but that's my take.

I do agree with your statement here:



travelguy said:


> I believe that the vast majority of DC members, if not all of them, who post do so because of the high level of satisfaction and excitement about this new and increasingly enjoyable form of luxury vacation travel!


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 27, 2007)

saluki said:


> Doug-
> 
> As much as I value your insight & knowledge (& killer property reviews!), I have to disagree with your take on this disclosure issue. Any DC investor writing here touting their DC should, in my opinion, let it be known that they are an investor.
> 
> ...



I was going to reply to travelguy's post, however, I couldn't possibly say it any better than Saluki did.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

saluki said:


> Doug-
> 
> As much as I value your insight & knowledge (& killer property reviews!), I have to disagree with your take on this disclosure issue. Any DC investor writing here touting their DC should, in my opinion, let it be known that they are an investor.
> 
> Otherwise, it is tantamount to someone pumping a stock that they own without dicslosing that information. I am not trying to make a mountain out of what is most certainly a mole hill here, but that's my take.



Saluki,

I understand your point and we'll just disagree on this one. The investors of the DCs will come forward if they want to.


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 27, 2007)

> Great Point! How will the reservation policy be structured and how will it affect availability once the clubs merge. If they have over 300 members between the 3 PE tiers with unlimited access and the ability to book 1, 2 or 3 nights at any time up to 2 years in advance, the new post merger PE/UR members and UR current members are going to be very discouraged with the availability. There’s going to be countless times when a UR or new PE/UR members are going to try and book a week somewhere and an old PE member has booked 2 nights in the middle of peak season. There’s no way they can keep members happy when there are 2 very different reservation policies and the current PE members have a huge advantage over new and current UR members.



No, no, no; if you re-read my posts, I am NOT saying that PE members will retain a different reservation system/policies; after the merger all members (new, old, former PE , former UR) will be subject to the same rules regarding minimum number of days stay, arrival dates, departure dates, etc.  However, what I am hearing is that the reservation policies for the merged entity will be closer to PE's very flexible system than URs less flexible system... but this new system will apply to EVERYONE, new and old.  What will be grandfathered, to both current PE and current UR members, is the dues structure (annual dues), refund policy (100%, 80%, or 80% of then current), reciprocity (which MAY or MAY NOT be extended to UR members and new members; not yet decided), and number of nights allowed (14, 28, 42, unlimited, etc.).


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 27, 2007)

i wasnt talking about the reservation system.

*PE* with *unlimited* use of *UR* properties

is what i was addressing. not sure what travelguy meant by "good point" in response to me, because he was only talking about reservation system..

why would a club twice the size be getting the short end of the stick, unless PE paid all of the $200MM financing? why call it a merger? call it an acquisition where UR members get screwed.

IMHO the fact were having this discussion because we dont KNOW proves this is a lot more complicated than they seem to be suggesting/advertising/etc. and i think its impossible to know whether it is better to join now or later, or even which club, based on the current information.


----------



## saluki (Sep 27, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Saluki,
> 
> As I write this I'm trying to see your reasoning and not be too p...ed off about this ... BUT I then take your original question of my status as a HCC investor to be a setup?  If I had answered that I'm a HCC investor (I'M NOT) you would have accused me of "pumping" my choice of DC as in your above quote.
> 
> ...



Doug, please, don't get riled up here. It is very obvious to me that your opinions & insights on this thread come from the heart. I was absolutely not trying to "set you up" & was in no way questioning your integrity. If it came off like that, I sincerely apologize. 

As a person with a small amount of investment properties, I was just curious if you or anyone here was a DC investor. In retrospect, I should have just posted a general question as opposed to asking you specifically. I just knew that you were a real estate guy & thought you might be involved.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

saluki said:


> Doug, please, don't get riled up here. It is very obvious to me that your opinions & insights on this thread come from the heart. I was absolutely not trying to "set you up" & was in no way questioning your integrity. If it came off like that, I sincerely apologize.
> 
> As a person with a small amount of investment properties, I was just curious if you or anyone here was a DC investor. In retrospect, I should have just posted a general question as opposed to asking you specifically. I just knew that you were a real estate guy & thought you might be involved.



No problems.  

I came back to edit my "upset" post to take out my strong words anyway.  A little over reacting on my part.  I still believe it's up the the individual investors if they want to disclose their investment.  I would not be concerned about their opinions one way or the other.  Sometimes investors are the first to play "devils advocate" and criticize with their own investments! 

For the record one more time, I'm not an investor in any DC.  Just a happy member with HCC!


----------



## saluki (Sep 27, 2007)

travelguy said:


> No problems.
> 
> I came back to edit my "upset" post to take out my strong words anyway.  A little over reacting on my part.  I still believe it's up the the individual investors if they want to disclose their investment.  I would not be concerned about their opinions one way or the other.  Sometimes investors are the first to play "devils advocate" and criticize with their own investments!
> 
> For the record one more time, I'm not an investor in any DC.  Just a happy member with HCC!



Whew, glad we're okay again... 

Now, get busy on that HCC Hilton Head review, will ya?


----------



## travelguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> not sure what travelguy meant by "good point" in response to me, because he was only talking about reservation system..



I was saying that you had a good point about questions on how the merger will affect use of properties by UR and PE members and then raised another questions on how the reservation system may have the potential for inequality.

I agree on your point that there's too much confusion about this merger.


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 27, 2007)

> I agree on your point that there's too much confusion about this merger.



I agree as well... I'm not sure why they didn't wait until all the details were set before announcing the merger, other than they were afraid that during the due diligence process there would be leaks, and they wanted to be sure that the members of both clubs were told about it before they heard rumors...


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 27, 2007)

For the record I am NOT a HCC investor...just a happy member. In fact, I do not know anyone on TUG that is an investor in HCC....this is a surprise to me.

I think there is a "possibility" of a conflict of interest and I will keep an eye out for anything unusual.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 27, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is it about HCC that doesn't fit your families travel plans?  FWIW - It seems that with the outrageous costs of private high school and college you'd want to really consider the low cost of HCC.



Yes, the low cost AND many HCC testimonials (HCC investors or not -- it doesn't bother me) are very alluring. 

Since you asked -- here up in the wilds of Canada we are still awaiting the kit supposedly sent to us by HCC last week. Perhaps HCC used parcel post; PE sent their package by FedEx and we got it in less than a week. A small thing, but life moves fast these days!

At any rate, here are a few reasons:
#1. I think that the 7-day minimum, and Sat to Sat bookings will be an issue for us. We take one long vacation a year (2 or 3 weeks, usually in summer), and about three or four short ones, 3-5 days.

#2. Since Stowe, NYC and Lake George, NY are within a day's drive from our home, I compared the Stowe and NY properties of HCC and PE on the web sites. I really like the location of the Trump building and its fitness facilities (PE); and Top Notch (PE) at Stowe, esp. for my son's benefit since he could meet other kids in the 11-12 age group at the pool, doing sports, etc. 

#3. PE's reciprocity feature is very appealing if we want to invite another family with kids to join us in a really posh setting, perhaps somewhere outside North America.

#4. We are not likely to use HCC's flagship ski properties in the west because my husband doesn't ski and hates snow (he's from balmy Vancouver)& will only go to Whistler in the summer!

So far that's why my bias is toward PE....


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2007)

So does anyone have the answer:

Join PE pre-merger of join UR pre-merger...what is the better deal?


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> So does anyone have the answer:
> 
> Join PE pre-merger of join UR pre-merger...what is the better deal?



I've been going over this with 2 friends that are thinking of joining before the merger, and here's our conclusions:

For the $1M Club, the only option is to join via PE Premiere, as UR has no $1M club at this time.  

For the $2M Club (PE Platinum vs. UR), it depends upon how many nights you expect to use, expected holiday usage, unaccompanied guest use, and importance of equity.   If you'll only use 14 nights per year, you can join UR Bronze at $125K deposit with 80% of 'then current' refund policy, and $10K in annual dues, or you can join PE Platinum Preview at 100K, 100% deposit refund with no upside, and annual dues of $8832 ($6900 + 14 X $138).  If unaccompanied guest use is important, then UR Bronze is the only solution.  With UR Bronze you get 1 holiday every other year, with PE Preview, no Xmas/NY usage, but no limits on spring break, Thanksgiving, July 4th, etc.  So if every other Xmas/NY usage is worth $1200 more to you per year vs. every year spring break, etc., then UR Bronze is the better choice, but if you'd rather book holidays other than Xmas/NY, then PE Platinum Preview is probably better.  Then the other factor to consider is whether you'd rather be assured 100% refund with no 3 in 1 out, or 80% of then current with a 3 in 1 out policy; personal choice based on risk/reward balance.  So for a low usage plan at the $2M level, depends on personal circumstances/preferences.  

For the $2M club at 21 - 28 day/year usage levels, PE Platinum and UR are very close; essentially same deposit & refund policy, essentially same annual dues (when nightly fees included); advantage of UR is unaccompanied guest usage, advantage of PE is reciprocity (which may or may not be extended to UR after the merger) and the ability to increase days by as many as you want for an extra $138 per night... So if you project 21 - 28 days/yr now but see yourself increasing that in the future, PE probably better choice, as you don't need to change plans, just book more nights and pay the extra per night fee.

For the $2M club at > 28 day/year usage levels, PE Platinum Corporate and UR Platinum are very close in every respect, except that PE Platinum Corporate has reciprocity, and annual dues of about $4K less per year... and if unaccompanied guest usage isn't important, then PE Platinum saves $15K deposit and $5000 per year vs, UR Platinum, plus guarantees reciprocity and unlimited days.

For the $3M club, at 14 nights usage, UR Elite Bronze is MUCH less expensive; $125K less deposit, and $9500 per year les annual costs, plus you get unaccompanied guest usage with UR Elite Bronze... but only every other year holiday use.

For the $3M club, at 21 nights usage, UR Elite Silver saves you $25K on the deposit, and about $3500 per year in annual fees, and allows unaccompanied guest usage, but is more limited in holiday use... PE Pinnacle costs a bit more, but has more flexible holiday usage and unlimited extra nights at $185/nt, so easy expansion if future needs grow.

For the $3M club, at 28+ nights usage, UR Elite and PE Pinnacle are quite similar, but with PE annual costs vary with usage, so if you use less one year you pay less, whereas UR is fixed annual dues, and PE has potential to use > 42 nts/yr; some use upwards of 60 nts./yr with only extra cost being the $185/nt.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 28, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> I agree as well... I'm not sure why they didn't wait until all the details were set before announcing the merger, other than they were afraid that during the due diligence process there would be leaks, and they wanted to be sure that the members of both clubs were told about it before they heard rumors...



Wonder if Golfnbeach got any enlightening info from the UR reception in Boston?


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2007)

Here is another way to look at it

UR Bronze
$125k deposit (80% refund of current value) may eventually be 100% or more refund
$10k per year for 14 nights
1 holiday EOY
Ignoring lost opportunity costs = $714 per night
Adding 5% lost opportunity costs = $1,160 per night

PE Platinum Preview
$100k (100% refundable)
$6900 per year for 14 nights
$1932 in nightly fees x 14 nights
No Christmas or New Year
Ignoring lost opportunity costs = $630 per night
Adding 5% lost opportunity costs = $987 per night

It appears that joining PE is cheaper by $173 per night or $2,422 per year


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

ok, *if* vineyarder's suggestions earlier *are* accurate *then* >

1. PE platinum get unlimited use of all of UR's properties in the same price range.
2. they can also use UR's higher priced properties, for at least 1 week per year.
> their usage decreases availability for UR members.
> the *only* thing UR members gain is some PE properties in same price range. which again isnt that great, because theyre sharing with PE members who have unlimited usage.
= UR members get absolutely screwed even though there are twice as many as PE.

50k 14 > 65k 14 ? (with 1 wk reciprocity = best DC deal?)
*if* they did that with what is now PE premiere preview, i still think it would pretty much be the best overall deal in the industry.

bill, i like those summaries you just did there, i think ill try and copy that format in the future


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

vivalour said:


> Wonder if Golfnbeach got any enlightening info from the UR reception in Boston?



I'm not sure if this will be enlightening, but it was a nice reception at the "jail."  The Liberty Hotel is a recently opened luxury hotel converted from a 150 year old jail on Charles Street.  I sat next to a lawyer who had a summer job as a guard there several decades ago.  Lot's of very nice people in attendance.

They had a nice open bar, hor'dourves and a sit down dinner.  Steve Healy, VP Membership Directory, put on a PowerPoint presentation with Q&A's.  

A few observations:

* Everyone seemed sincere when they indicated they have not worked out all the issues in regards to the merger.  They have an all day meeting/conf call scheduled next week to discuss.

* No definitive answer on reciprocity except UR likes the concept and will try to work something out.

* Unlimited nights will probably not be part of the combined offering.

* Minimum nights will probably be 3-4.

* All current terms and benefits from both PE and UR memberships will be grandfathered.

* I got a strange feeling (can't explain) that there was a possibility the merger could not go through.  Everyone kept expressing that you should join the club that best meets your requirements based on today's terms pre-merger.  Don't read too much into this.

*  They think ER is their only real competition.  They dismiss HCC as a tier or two lower than PE preview.

* Steve mentioned something about a new relationship with World Hotels or something like that.  The members would have the use of hotel nights in some 30 worldwide destinations.  It would be as easy to book as an owned property.  They put up a slide indicating a Boston location, howerver, Steve didn't know what hotel it was.

* There were only about a dozen or so couples in attendace and around 6 UR employees.

* Doc Rivers (coach of the Celtics) was a guest speaker/member.  He was gracious but it seemed he didn't really want to be there.  Only spoke for maybe 5 minutes.  The only property he personally visited was in NYC.

* Everyone I spoke to said they would never spend $1-$3K a night to stay in one of these properties, however, they had no problem spending the equivalent amount in annual membership dues.  Hey...they belong to an exclusive country club.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

thanks a lot for the great info!



> * I got a strange feeling (can't explain) that there was a possibility the merger could not go through. Everyone kept expressing that you should join the club that best meets your requirements based on today's terms pre-merger.


 IIRC theyve actually said this in interviews. (downplayed) maybe this is the source of the confusion - its not all friendly like theyve implied, and there is some hostile negotiating going on, which might not be resolved. heck, if vineyarder's suggestions are accurate IMHO i maintain its a hostile takeover by PE... 



> They think ER is their only real competition. They dismiss HCC as a tier or two lower than PE preview.


 great - theyre becoming pretentious too, and if theyre saying properties of the same value are a "tier or two lower" thats ridiculous. and while i like PE Premiere's $1MM punta mita property,  HCC does have some $2MM properties..



> Steve mentioned something about a new relationship with World Hotels or something like that...They put up a slide indicating a Boston location, howerver, Steve didn't know what hotel it was.



background >
http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/ultimate-resort-collection.html

good to know its http://www.worldhotels.com/ though
boston = The Eliot Suite Hotel

its just another way to rip off members though, considering nightly cost, unless youve got unlimited nights via PE. 



> * There were only about a dozen or so couples in attendace and around 6 UR employees.
> * Doc Rivers (coach of the Celtics) was a guest speaker/member. He as gracious but it seemed he didn't really want to be there. Only spoke for maybe 5 minutes.


 ouch!  



> * Everyone I spoke to said they would never spend $1-$3K a night to stay in one of these properties, however, they had no problem spending the equivalent amount in annual membership dues.


  some people


----------



## vivalour (Sep 28, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> * I got a strange feeling (can't explain) that there was a possibility the merger could not go through.  Everyone kept expressing that you should join the club that best meets your requirements based on today's terms pre-merger.  Don't read too much into this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> They think ER is their only real competition. They dismiss HCC as a tier or two lower than PE preview.



That's weird....ER does not really view UR/PE as competition for them and HCC thinks PE is their closest competitor.

I wonder if they were putting too much vodka in those martini's


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

another good comparison, although to be fair, ER wont consider ANYONE to EVER be competition (at least publicly)


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> That's weird....ER does not really view UR/PE as competition for them and HCC thinks PE is their closest competitor.
> 
> I wonder if they were putting too much vodka in those martini's



What they say to potential members and what they say internally in meetings may be entirely different.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

vivalour said:


> GOLFNBEACH said:
> 
> 
> > * I got a strange feeling (can't explain) that there was a possibility the merger could not go through.  Everyone kept expressing that you should join the club that best meets your requirements based on today's terms pre-merger.  Don't read too much into this.
> ...


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

http://www.heliumreport.com/archive...capes-ceos-talk-about-destination-club-merger


> I see no potential problems with combining our business cultures at all.


 hmm i clearly remembered wrong. although thats not really addressing the financial aspect of the merger.

joint press release >
http://ultimateresort.com/media/docs/press_releases/Merger_Release.pdf
http://www.privateescapes.com/pdf/press_releases/FINAL_Merger_Release.pdf


> Approximately 1,200 club members will have access to hundreds of exclusive club properties
> located in nearly 50 of the world’s best resort destinations in the US, Mexico, the Caribbean and
> Europe, as well as exclusive access to a select collection of over 60 luxury hotels in dozens of
> major cities in the US, Europe, Asia, Middle East, South America and Central America.





> The merger is expected to close by mid-November 2007, at which time both company’s assets will be combined.



http://www.heliumreport.com/archive...rm-destination-club-industry-s-largest-merger


> The merger will give both Ultimate Resort and Private Escapes members access to over 140 properties, as well as over 60 luxury hotels around the world.



interesting details i havent seen anywhere else >
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/other_business/article/0,2777,DRMN_23916_5696626,00.html


> The merger is not an acquisition or purchase. Instead, -Keith said, the two companies are contributing their properties to a new entity. The shareholders of each will take stakes in the new company based primarily on the amount of assets contributed.



all coverage linked >
http://www.privateescapes.com/news/Default.aspx
(i skimmed all print, and radio interview was short and nothing new)

edit >
starwood could easily turn st regis club into an exchangeless DC-like entity if they wanted to. considering they also started luxury collection fractionals, i dont see them starting a DC.

edit >


travelguy said:


> I was saying that you had a good point about questions on how the merger will affect use of properties by UR and PE members and then raised another questions on how the reservation system may have the potential for inequality.
> 
> I agree on your point that there's too much confusion about this merger.


 gotcha.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 28, 2007)

Hmmm.  This almost sounds like what one of the posters on TUG was warning about.  Now who was that....  

I don't know how I can say it strongly enough ... this "merger" is a train wreck in process.  This is classic "How Not to Execute a Business Transaction" 101.  The easy part of the merger/acquisition  should be determining member programs and benefits (which they can't even do).  The hard part, and the part which will DOOM this M/A is the business issues.  It appears they haven't even agreed on valuations at this point.  I believe it's irresponsible for PE and UR to be marketing the potential benefits of this M/A when it's nowhere near completion!

IMHO:

If you are considering joining PE or UR now ... what the heck are you thinking?  Don't become blinded by member programs that don't even exist yet!  Wait for the parties to work out the actual M/A basics and then ASK FOR EVERYTHING IN WRITING.  Remember that the entity you buy from will NOT be the entity you end up with so you may have reduced or no recourse post-M/A!  WAIT to see what happens!

If you are a current PE or UR member, you should be very concerned about what is happening.  How much of your clubs assets are being wasted with this M/A attempt?  M/As cost millions, more if it gets into litigation (it sounds like it will).  You should become very active and find out what's going on and WHY?  This may be a sign of trouble with one or both clubs.  I hope not for the sake of the DC industry.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

it sure seems to me, from whats been released, that both WILL have reciprocity or whatever, but they will NOT guarantee it in writing. 

therefore IMHO >
- if you were considering PE, consider it as a standalone, if you get a grandfathered contract
- PE Preview has 100% refund, and might be going away, whereas HCC preview does NOT seem to be going away, so there is no reason not to join it if you were considering PE, or perhaps even if you were considering UR. 

OTOH IMHO joining UR seems like it could end EXTREMELY badly in a worst case scenario. unless you simply go for the 80% of current value thing and just cash out if things go south... i mean i guess anyone could do that really, depending on how it works when you want to resign.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

travelguy said:


> I don't know how I can say it strongly enough ... this "merger" is a train wreck in process.
> IMHO:
> 
> .



What are you basing this on?

Very seldom will you ever see a merger where all the details are finalized before the announcement.

All PE and UR members will be grandfathered (in their contracts) with the terms they signed up for.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

golfnbeach said:
			
		

> All PE and *UR* members will be *grandfathered* (in their contracts) with the terms they signed up for.


that is _not_ what im talking about. if vineyarder's suggestions are correct, current UR members get absolutely screwed over. or do you disagree with my analysis of the ramifications of his suggestions? >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=398528&postcount=47

if you disagree with my analysis, please explain your thoughts on those issues.

also, perhaps someone can clarify how resigning from UR works, as that would be a factor in deciding whether to join UR now IMHO.



			
				travelguy said:
			
		

> If you are considering joining PE or UR now ... what the heck are you thinking? Don't become blinded by member programs that don't even exist yet!


 right, IMHO look at PE as standalone if grandfathered contract. so NOT "what the heck are you thinking" to those people with everything in writing, right? same with PE Preview - what reason is there to NOT join if grandfathered? you seem to agree there is none, correct? (as you said >) 





			
				travelguy said:
			
		

> ASK FOR EVERYTHING IN WRITING.



so again IMHO the only thing people might want to avoid because of _potential_ negative impact is joining UR now. UNLESS you can resign for a profit without having to wait.

another summary (IMHO) worded differently >
1. PE Preview - could be going away, HCC trial doesnt appear to be, little to no risk with 100% refund
2. PE - look at it as standalone, only if grandfathered

i dont see how the merger could have a negative impact on current PE members. OTOH >

X. UR - merger has potential to have negative impact


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 28, 2007)

*A few points...*



> 1. PE platinum get unlimited use of all of UR's properties in the same price range.
> 2. they can also use UR's higher priced properties, for at least 1 week per year.
> > their usage decreases availability for UR members.
> > the only thing UR members gain is some PE properties in same price range. which again isnt that great, because theyre sharing with PE members who have unlimited usage.
> = UR members get absolutely screwed even though there are twice as many as PE.



A few points...

1)  I think that people are putting too much emphasis on the grandfathering of PE 'unlimited usage'; even though usage is 'unlimited', the vast majority of PE members use the properties 25 - 35 nights per year, which is less than the amount allotted to UR Platinum members... so even though they theoretically have the ability to use the properties 365 nights per year, it just isn't happening, and there is no reason to expect that would suddenly change after a merger... a small number may use the properties 60 - 70 nights per year, but that is a very small minority, and as I understand it, the average varies between 25 - 35.

2)  Availability, as measured in occupancy rates, are very similar for both clubs, so merging them, without changing anyones 'deal' should have no effect of overall availability.  If a = PE members, and b = UR members, and x = occupancy rate, ax + bx = (a+b)x

3)  Even though UR has twice as many members as PE, the majority of UR members in both UR and UR Elite are bronze members, with only 14 nights usage per year... when you use 'member equivalents' (the way HCC does), PE and UR are very close in 'full member equivalents'.

4)  Since the majority of UR members are bronze members, allowed 14 nights per year, the addition of PE members will have no more effect on their availability than the UR Silver, Gold & Platinum members do currently...

5)  From what I am hearing, from both UR and PE, no UR members will be 'screwed'; each member of both clubs will continue to get exactly the deal they signed up for; UR Bronze will still get 14 nights for $XXXX per year, etc.  So how are they being screwed if they are getting the same deal they signed up for, at the same price, with the same availability/occupancy rates, but with more selection options?  I'm sure that UR will be happy to sell an upgrade to any UR bronze members that want to upgrade before (or after) the merger...

6)  It has always been acknowledged that the merger was not a 'done deal', but rather a proposed/intended merger entering a due diligence period, so yes, it still makes sense for anyone considering either or both clubs to consider the possibility that the merger won't happen... doesn't mean that there is any hostility, just that it isn't a certainty until the ink is dry...



> The easy part of the merger/acquisition should be determining member programs and benefits (which they can't even do). The hard part, and the part which will DOOM this M/A is the business issues. It appears they haven't even agreed on valuations at this point.



I'm not sure what you are basing this on... from what I have heard, they DID agree on the business issues (management, governance, ownership, etc.) and certainly the valuations... but left the 'easy' part (determining future member benefits & programs) for the due diligence period...  On what are you basing your conclusion that the business issues and valuation have not been determined???  Remember, these are both private companies, not public entities, and they have no obligation to disclose to the general public aspects of their business model that they wish to keep confidential.  In addition, there very well may be additional information being shared with interested parties (i.e. PE & UR members) that the members cannot share in a public forum.  And lastly, there is no reason to believe that the companies are refusing to put promises in writing...  Where are you getting the information that is leading you to these conclusions???


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

what if every current PE member takes 1 week of reciprocity in a UR property?(every year) that was not possible before the merger, but it will be possible if only current PE members have reciprocity, as you suggested might happen. that is what im trying to point out.

ill just say that the press release and the helium report article, plus the fact that it would be negative to UR, seem to indicate fairly clearly to me that there is going to be some form of reciprocity for everyone moving forward, including for people who join post merger. because they havent agreed on the details, they havent said anything about it.

perhaps its the same with entry pricing, theyre spending a lot of time on how to price the 5 plans for the $1MM tier.

if they are making promises in writing about post merger usage not related to grandfathered plans, what are they?


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> ok, *if* vineyarder's suggestions earlier *are* accurate *then* >
> 
> = UR members get absolutely screwed even though there are twice as many as PE.



I like vineyarder's terrific summary above.  As usual, his analysis is detailed, informative and well written.

UR members have several benefits depending on the club level, nights of usage, guest usage, holiday time, etc.

Join the club that makes the most sense pre-merger.  If the merger makes you unconfortable or you want to wait to see how the DC market developes, don't join.


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 28, 2007)

> ill just say that the press release and the helium report article, plus the fact that it would be negative to UR, seem to indicate fairly clearly to me that there is going to be some form of reciprocity for everyone moving forward, including for people who join post merger.



I agree that is what is most likely... current PE members are guaranteed it, but my guess is also that some form of reciprocity will be incorporated for all members, pre- and post-merger...



> if they are making promises in writing about post merger usage not related to grandfathered plans, what are they?



I did not mean to imply that they are making promises in writing (or verbally) about post-merger use not related to grandfathered plans, only regarding grandfathered plans... this was in response to a comment by someone else that they would not put anything in writing...


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 28, 2007)

> what if every current PE member takes 1 week of reciprocity in a UR property?(every year) that was not possible before the merger,



OK - let's run with this assumption.  If there are 400 PE members that have the right to use reciprocity, and 100% take advantage of the reciprocity, that would amount to 400 weeks / yr, out of a total inventory of 140 X 52 = 7280 weeks, or 5.5% of the inventory...  But realistically, if the $3M members use reciprocity by booking a $2M or $1M home, they are opening up weeks in the $3M club that they would have otherwise used... and if the $2M member uses reciprocity to either the $3M or $1M club, they are also opening up weeks at the $2M level that they would otherwise (absent reciprocity) have used themselves.  So the real impact on availability is considerably less than 5.5%... and that is assuming 100% usage!  In reality, nowhere near 100% of PE members use reciprocity, so the impact, even in the (less likely) situation where only PE members get reciprocity should be pretty minimal.  In addition, to prevent certain homes from being overloaded or booked up by reciprocal members, PE currently has limits on how many days per quarter any individual property can be used for reciprocity, and presumably this quota would be continued, further minimizing the impact.  Does this make sense???


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

i think travelguy was a little ambiguous, i _think_ he was mainly saying 





> Don't become blinded by member programs that don't even exist yet!



vineyarder, thanks for responding to the reciprocity question - when you break it down that way it seems negligible. the only thing i would say is if youre talking about peak properties/season, it might work out a little differently, and be more noticeable.

so not sure where i stand on UR's outlook i guess. really depended more on how fast you can resign anyway. but i definitely dont see anything wrong with considering PE by its current merits (and joining now)

im working on some pricing numbers now.. can anyone attach files or just moderators? hey, i see theyve updated the boards to include things like multiquote!


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 28, 2007)

> thanks for responding to the reciprocity question - when you break it down that way it seems negligible. the only thing i would say is if youre talking about peak properties/season, it might work out a little differently, and be more noticeable.



Two things prevent overload at peak properties/seasons; first, under current PE rules, no reciprocity is allowed over Xmas/New Years/Spring Break/Thanksgiving/Presidents Week.  Secondly, each individual property can only be used for reciprocity a certain number of days per quarter, so a ski property couldn't be overloaded with reciprocity during peak ski season, only for a certain number of days per quarter.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

gotcha. 

then if i were considering joining, i would likely only take into account the 2 things that seem very certain to be ending - the unlimited use by PE, and the PE preview plans with 100% refund standard. i guess it might also be smart to get into UR now if you want equity (80% refund of future value)

i think these are reasonable educated guesses as to the post merger pricing of the $2MM and $3MM tier plans >
$165K $255K $270K $285K $300K
$265K $390K $425K $460K $495K

im thinking the $1MM tier will be in the $75K > $150K or $100K > $200K range.


----------



## Sherpa (Sep 28, 2007)

GolfnBeach - good summary of last night
Vineyarder - good overview of where the deal stands etc

A couple of other points that came out last night, some of which confirm the points above:

- the $2m home club (ie the mid tier) will be biggest (after the merger) with 40 plus destinations
- the current PE members travel 2 days more on average per year than UR members (so despite the different plan structures there's not a lot of difference in actual usage rates)
- UR is running at 50 to 52 % availability

In Steves exact words they are still looking at reciprocity because "it is a good feature" - read into that what you will, but you can imagine the issues eg if you now grant reciprocity across all levels for all members what does that mean for the original UR members who don't have it - but are grandfathered in with the other terms for their plans - so if you do give that feature to the UR current members should you then also give another feature to the current PE members, all of a sudden grandfathering becomes grandfathering ++. So a few issues to work through and solve.

Cheers


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

Sherpa said:


> - the $2m home club (ie the mid tier) will be biggest (after the merger) with *40 plus* *destinations*



i came up with >

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=397589&postcount=130
combined numbers >
$800K - 24 destinations 30 properties
$1.5MM - 35 destinations 44 properties
$3MM - 23 destinations 27 properties
leftovers in top 2 tiers - 46 properties
*total destinations - 44*
total properties - 147
+ hotels active next month

so thats interesting, it seems to suggest they are moving at least 5 properties in unique destinations around, presumably coming from the current $3MM tiers.. actually... i dont want to recheck, but im tempted to say its just marketing, considering the total destinations is 44. IIRC, i dont think it would be possible for the $2MM tier to have homes in *every* destination. it would certainly be nice


----------



## travelguy (Sep 28, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> What are you basing this on?
> 
> Very seldom will you ever see a merger where all the details are finalized before the announcement.



Based upon my experiences with M/A, both directly and as an investor.  I have been through acquisitions of two privately held companies that I owned.  A computer programming company and a chain of high end retail stores.  One went great and one took three years to clear up after it imploded.  I came out great in both but I could have easily ended up on the down side of things.

I now specialize in investing in the equities of Financial firms both globally traded (ex: Citibank, JPM, etc.) and small, privately held banks that are takeover targets (ex: Bay Financial).  The financial industry has been THE hotbed of M/A activity since the tech bust killed IPOs.  I've participated in many, especially at the local bank level.

I've learned several things about M/A in my experience.  One is that it's always worse on the "inside" than it appears to the casual observer.  Second is that successful M/As have the basic business deal in place BEFORE any announcement and the resulting issues to be decided are usually the result of previously undisclosed items that routinely come-up in the due diligence process.  Third is that when a M/A fails it usually catches everyone on the "outside" off-guard.  Forth is that outside investors approach M/A like buyers at a bankruptcy auction ... with larceny in their heart, and are blinded to the downside of a M/A.  Fifth is that there is usually an underlying reason that is not initially disclosed for one or both parties to participate in the M/A.

Having said all that, I'd say that my totally unscientific analysis of the PE/UR merger is that it is not "put together" enough.  It sounds like they are not working on the details, they are still working on the DEAL!  Also, I don't buy the reason for the merger as just wanting to get bigger by combining #2 & #3.  Here's only two of many issues to think about.  Is it coincidence that this is happening just prior to the time (Dec 31st) when UR and PE should requalify for the DCA and their "net asset test"?  Does anyone really know the financial heath of UR after swallowing up T&H?  Has anyone seen a recent, audited statement for UR or PE (ending sometime in 2007?).  Theres more and it's worse but I'll stop at these.

And finally, what if there is even a hint of the M/A going south and members get antsy and decide to ask for membership fee refunds?



GOLFNBEACH said:


> All PE and UR members will be grandfathered (in their contracts) with the terms they signed up for.



To play Devils Advocate some more .... those are the PE and UR contracts.  My understating is that PE and UR will not exist after the M/A.  Are you SURE that you are grandfathered?

And as to the question on my statement of "The easy part of the merger/acquisition should be determining member programs and benefits (which they can't even do). The hard part, and the part which will DOOM this M/A is the business issues."

A) If they don't get the biz issues done, the rest is irrelevant.
B) Which issue to you think PE and UR are negotiating most - How much they get paid or where you can vacation next year? 

Of course this is all just speculation on my part and no one should lose any sleep over it.  My main point is that the financial structure and stability of the resulting entities, after either a successful or unsuccessful M/A, should be the focus of any buying decision and not how many days you get where and when.  These issues can and hopefully will get worked out.  However, I would caution that waiting may be the prudent move here.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 28, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Having said all that, I'd say that my totally unscientific analysis of the PE/UR merger is that it is not "put together" enough.
> .



Only time will tell.  

But I think it's a bit of a stretch when you say..."I don't know how I can say it strongly enough ... this "merger" is a train wreck in process."

Anyone thinking of joining can ask for audited financial statements and the auditors opinion letter.  You can talk to the CFO.  In the end if you're not confortable don't join.

Personally I like the concept of DCs and will continue to evaluate all options.


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 29, 2007)

> i guess it might also be smart to get into UR now if you want equity (80% refund of future value)



The 'equity' component (80% of then current value) refund policy has also been adopted by PE, in order to more closely align PE & UR offerings, and will most likely also continue in the new offerings after the merger...



> i think these are reasonable educated guesses as to the post merger pricing of the $2MM and $3MM tier plans >
> $165K $255K $270K $285K $300K
> $265K $390K $425K $460K $495K
> 
> im thinking the $1MM tier will be in the $75K > $150K or $100K > $200K range.



Pure speculation on my part, but just for fun, I'll guess the pricing will look something like this...

$1M:    65K /  90K / 110K / 130K / 150K
$2M:  150K / 230K / 250K / 275K / 295K
$3M:  220K / 325K / 350K / 375K / 400K

I think that they'll keep the $3M club below comparable plans offered by ER, which is now at $239K/$349K/$459K, and will want the 'entry level' plan at the $1M club to be within range of HCC offerings (I realize this would put the 14 night PE/UR plan at a similar price with the 45 night HCC plan, so I am not suggesting they are comparable, just that they will have the membership deposit start at a level that is in the same ballpark).  Again, this is all pure speculation and not based on any sort of inside information...


----------



## vineyarder (Sep 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Sherpa
> - the $2m home club (ie the mid tier) will be biggest (after the merger) with 40 plus destinations



Here's my guess of how the destination lists will end up for the combined club... I'm not sure how the $2M club would make it to 40 destinations, unless there are some new properties about to be acquired that haven't been announced...

$1M (31 DESTINATIONS)

•	Abaco
•	Beaver Creek, CO 
•	Belize, Central America
•	Cap Cana 
•	Chicago, IL 
•	Fox Acres, CO 
•	Jackson Hole, WY 
•	Kiawah Island, SC 
•	La Buscadora, BVI (yacht) 
•	La Costa, CA 
•	La Quinta, CA:  
•	Lake George, NY 
•	Lake Las Vegas, NV 
•	Lake Tahoe, NV 
•	Los Cabos, Mexico:
•	Naples 
•	New York City, NY:  
•	Outer Banks, NC
•	Orlando 
•	Punta Cana, Dom. Rep. 
•	Punta Mita, Mexico 
•	Reynolds Plantation, GA
•	Scottsdale 
•	Steamboat Springs, CO 
•	Stowe, VT 
•	Sunny Isles/Miami
•	Telluride
•	Turks and Caicos, BWI 
•	Tuscany, Italy: 
•	Waikoloa, HI: 
•	WaterColor, FL


$2M (35 DESTINATIONS)

•	Abaco Island, Bahamas
•	Breckenridge
•	Cap Cana 
•	Chicago, IL 
•	Candlewood Lake, CT
•	Copper Mountain, CO 
•	Jackson Hole, WY 
•	Kiawah Island, SC 
•	La Buscadora, BVI (yacht)
•	La Costa, CA 
•	La Quinta, CA 
•	Lake George, NY
•	Lake Tahoe
•	London 
•	Los Cabos, Mexico
•	Maui
•	Miami
•	Naples 
•	New York City, NY
•	Nevis
•	Oahu
•	Orlando 
•	Outer Banks, NC 
•	Palm Beach
•	Park City
•	Punta Cana, Dom. Rep. 
•	Reynolds Plantation, GA
•	Scottsdale
•	Steamboat Springs 
•	Stowe 
•	Telluride, CO 
•	Turks and Caicos, BWI 
•	Tuscany, Italy
•	Vail 
•	WaterColor, FL 


$3M (24 DESTINATIONS)

•	Abaco Island, Bahamas 
•	Charleston, SC 
•	Deer Valley/Park City
•	Jackson Hole
•	Kiawah
•	La Buscadora, BVI (yacht)
•	La Quinta
•	Lake Tahoe
•	London 
•	Los Cabos, Mexico 
•	Maui
•	Naples
•	New York City, NY
•	Nevis
•	Palm Beach
•	Paris
•	Scottsdale
•	St. Thomas
•	Steamboat Springs
•	Stowe
•	Sun Valley
•	Telluride
•	Vail 
•	WaterColor, FL


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 29, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Pure speculation on my part, but just for fun, I'll guess the pricing will look something like this...
> 
> $1M:    65K /  90K / 110K / 130K / 150K
> $2M:  150K / 230K / 250K / 275K / 295K
> ...



What are you speculating that you get for $65K and $90K - is this the trial/preview?  Currently the least expensive memberships are UR Bronze at $125K, and PE Premier at $105.

If you have a chance I'd love to see your speculation on annual dues as well.  Thanks,


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 29, 2007)

for my numbers, i started with 1.3X like theyve said, then rounded, and made all the gaps between prices (within and between tiers) fit into similar patterns as the current pricing.

itd certainly be a major competitive factor if they remained equity. the final details are going to be really interesting.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 29, 2007)

There is not much discussion on the La Buscadora, BVI (yacht) and I think this is a HUGE selling feature. Only PE and DHH have private yachts that I know of.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 29, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> There is not much discussion on the La Buscadora, BVI (yacht) and I think this is a HUGE selling feature. Only PE and DHH have private yachts that I know of.



The yacht looks great (and sailing in BVI is awesome), however, I'm sure it has an add'l daily fee on top of the yearly membership dues.  I don't believe La Buscadora is owned by the club.  Does anyone know what the add'l daily fee is?


----------



## wdinner (Sep 29, 2007)

*La Buscadora and reciprocity*

The current charge is about $10,000 additional for the week.  
According to prior notes, PE does own the boat.   Reservation for at least next year have mostly been reserved as there was a lottery about a year or so ago to determine who got to select in order.  There are cancellations from time to time.  This one of the reasons are family decided to join, though we were unlucky in the initial boat lottery.  

WRT to the reciprocity discussion, there are limits in each quarter on how many member of one group can use there reciprocity on properties in another group. 

One of the other very nice features has been the ability to use days one or two at a time.  For instance we have been to trump tower twice this year on saturdays and were recently up in stowe for 3 days.

bill


----------



## Bourne (Sep 29, 2007)

http://www.la-buscadora.com/

...

Weekly rates for Private Escapes members are: $11,500 (six people); $12,500 (seven people); $13,500 (eight people). Note that a 10–15% gratuity is customary and that some additional fees may also apply. Pricing and terms are specified in a separate Charter Agreement.

Weekly rates for all other guests are: $23,000 (six people); $24,000 (seven people); $25,000 (eight people). Note that a 10–15% gratuity is customary and that some additional fees may also apply. Pricing and terms are specified in a separate Charter Agreement.

...


Couple of points that interest me...

1. PE allows non members to charter the boat.  
2. You have to pay 11.5K - 13.5 K as a member. 4 - 5 times of what ER charges as dailty fees equivalent on THE WORLD.  
3. The boat is almost 70 years old.


----------



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 29, 2007)

and if you do space available through DHH, their yachts run $900 > $2400 / wk..

solstice also has a yacht.


----------



## travelguy (Sep 30, 2007)

It bothers me that a DC is involved with an asset that depreciates greatly and is a huge maintenance expense.  The DC business model is based upon the profit of asset appreciation which is in direct contrast to yacht ownership.  Then again, at the prices PE charges it's members for use of the yacht, the DCs profit may come directly from the members pockets with those additional high fees!

I'd love to have the use of a yacht with my DC membership but would rather have the DC do what it does best and provide me with great properties at a reasonable price.  I can lease a yacht when I want and not have to go through the hassle of lotteries and reservation restrictions.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Sep 30, 2007)

I too love the concept of yachts as they are mega expensive to charter, but I have openly questioned the business feasibility of adding a yacht to a DC. I know DHH has three of them and often wonder how long they will be able to afford this.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 30, 2007)

travelguy said:


> It bothers me that a DC is involved with an asset that depreciates greatly and is a huge maintenance expense.  .



The PE yacht is now owed by the club.  They have a business relationship with the owner and crew.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 30, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> I've been going over this with 2 friends that are thinking of joining before the merger, and here's our conclusions:
> 
> For the $1M Club, the only option is to join via PE Premiere, as UR has no $1M club at this time.



We are coming to the same conclusion, irrespective of all the vagueness still there about the merger details.
1. My contacts with PE have all been positive and very business-like so far.
2. The PE Premiere trial gives us a quick out, with 100% money back, which I would hope would still be there within the yr. We could sign on for membership if the merger appears to be "successful" and if we like the properties we see in the year trial.
3. Of course we can also opt to not join any DC -- our third option -- to see how the industry shakes out.

Cons of the merger for us: why merge if you are already successful?  IMHO the merger will create tension and instability in the 2 companies and attention may be deflected from increasing memberships and keeping present members happy. Then both suffer.

No doubt each org. has its own culture and each CEO has his own style. People tend to leave or to be "let go" after a mreger. I feel I could "trust" PE at the moment and will be checking out their financials. Afterwards -- who knows?


----------



## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 30, 2007)

vivalour said:


> Cons of the merger for us: why merge if you are already successful?



The most important reason involves economies of scale.  It is very expensive to run a destination club: computer reservation system, management (technology, sales, finance, accounting, tax, collections, legal), concierges, housekeeping, maintenance, etc.  Plus the cost of quality properties.

A larger DC can spread the resources across a greater number of members and locations.  They can also use their purchasing power to get pre-construction pricing and multi-unit pricing that is less expensive.

Finding the right size is the key.


----------



## vivalour (Sep 30, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> The most important reason involves economies of scale. A larger DC can spread the resources across a greater number of members and locations.  They can also use their purchasing power to get pre-construction pricing and multi-unit pricing that is less expensive.
> Finding the right size is the key.



Possibly true in theory, but why would UR with 800 members want to "merge" with PE that has 400?  I guess M&As are the trendoid way to go, but as an investor, I look for organic growth of a business --on its own merits -- as a healthier route. Usually it shows innovation, strong management, a good business plan and maybe some luck thown in.


----------



## nick@ihug.co.nz (Sep 30, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I too love the concept of yachts as they are mega expensive to charter, but I have openly questioned the business feasibility of adding a yacht to a DC. I know DHH has three of them and often wonder how long they will be able to afford this.



As the Major shareholder of DHH , i also own a large share in a Yacht Brokerage in France, that deals in Mega Yachts. We have many years of experience in this industry, as well as yacht management. We are able to operate our yachts very cost effectively, and we also buy very very well, and in fact have made money on all of the yachts we have in the club to date, also we buy yachts in their life cycle where the depreciation will be minimal going forward but they are in very good condition and they have actually appreciated in value as we bought well, and renovated well, we have made over $500,000  on the 86 ft Yacht.

Our 86 ft yacht has had rave reviews from Members this summer ... from our perspective it cost much less than a house to buy, and we charge more than what we charge for a house so it works well for the Club, and our members get a large yacht for $8,000 a week inclusive of F & B (with around another $4,000 for fuel and port fees, we offer the fuel to members at cost which is tax free so 40 % cheaper than normal charter) vs $50,000 plus fuel at retail , plus food & Bev , plus port fees....

So everyone wins ....


----------



## vineyarder (Oct 1, 2007)

> Possibly true in theory, but why would UR with 800 members want to "merge" with PE that has 400? I guess M&As are the trendoid way to go, but as an investor, I look for organic growth of a business --on its own merits -- as a healthier route. Usually it shows innovation, strong management, a good business plan and maybe some luck thown in.



A couple of points...

While UR has "800 members", most of these are bronze members at 14 nights/yr, so when you use 'full member equivalents' UR has 437, or almost the same as PE, so much more a merger of equals...

In addition, PE has been much more successful at organic growth than UR; of URs '800 members', 650 came from T&H in that acquisition, so UR has only really 'sold' 150 memberships, whereas PE has sold all 400 memberships, and probably has a much stronger sales/marketing department.  PE also has (according to both companies) the stronger operations team, reservations infrastructure, etc.

So as I see it, UR had a fantastic portfolio of homes that it picked up out of bankrupty from T&H at bargain prices, and a very customer-centric culture, but wasn't competing successfully against ER at the $3M level, wasn't competing successfully against PE Platinum at the $1.5M level, and had no player in the $850K level, leaving that open to PE & HCC.  The merger allows UR access to a stronger sales & marketing team (as well as eliminating competition with PE in the $1.5M & $3M clubs), a stronger operations & reservations systems, and economies of scale...  PE benefits by maintaining its strengths (sales/marketing/operations/reservations), greatly expanding its $3M club, doubling the destinations, eliminating competition, gaining economies of scale, and sharing in the boost to its assets via incorporating the real estate portfolio that was acquired by UR at bargain rates.  Just my opinions...


----------



## vineyarder (Oct 1, 2007)

> There is not much discussion on the La Buscadora, BVI (yacht) and I think this is a HUGE selling feature. Only PE and DHH have private yachts that I know of.



I haven't discussed the PE yacht in this forum as I think of it as a nice little bonus, not a significant enough factor for people to use in determining which club to join...  I love yachts, but I agree that DHHs 86' yacht looks much more comfortable/spacious than PEs 80' La Buscadora... But, on the other hand, the PE members that have spent a week on La Buscadora have all raved about it as one of the best trips of their lives, so the captain & crew must do a fabulous job...



> It bothers me that a DC is involved with an asset that depreciates greatly and is a huge maintenance expense. The DC business model is based upon the profit of asset appreciation which is in direct contrast to yacht ownership. Then again, at the prices PE charges it's members for use of the yacht, the DCs profit may come directly from the members pockets with those additional high fees!





> I too love the concept of yachts as they are mega expensive to charter, but I have openly questioned the business feasibility of adding a yacht to a DC. I know DHH has three of them and often wonder how long they will be able to afford this.




I agree that a depreciating asset like a yacht is generally not c/w the business model of a DC, and this was also acknowledged by the PE management, but they went ahead with the purchase to satisfy member requests, and the non-member usage contributes significantly to the upkeep.




> Our 86 ft yacht has had rave reviews from Members this summer ... from our perspective it cost much less than a house to buy, and we charge more than what we charge for a house so it works well for the Club, and our members get a large yacht for $8,000 a week inclusive of F & B (with around another $4,000 for fuel and port fees



Of note, the rate for PE members on La Buscadora is inclusive of all F&B and fuel & port charges, and usage doesn't count toward reservation days, so the overall cost for both DHH members and PE members is about $12K per week (though, given the choice, I'd pick the DHH yacht)


----------



## vivalour (Oct 1, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> A couple of points...
> 
> While UR has "800 members", most of these are bronze members at 14 nights/yr, so when you use 'full member equivalents' UR has 437, or almost the same as PE, so much more a merger of equals...
> 
> ...



Ahhh... helps to know the inside story... so it may be a good thing for both, esp. UR...thanks for the enlightenment.


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Oct 1, 2007)

Regarding depreciation of the yachts... Bellehavens has said the same thing.. it doesn't fit their business model, since it is a depreciating asset.. they will consider it in the future only because members are asking for it.. but right now it doesn't fit... (as much as I'd like a yacht in the club, being an equity member, I completely understan)


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Oct 1, 2007)

People seem to forget the UR was a "small DC" before they made an offer on T&H...this surprised many in the industry. Thus, they went from 100 or less members to the #2 DC in terms of members.

If DHH is successful and you like yachts....joining DHH just for the yachts (forget the houses) is worth the membership fee...think of the houses as the bonus.


----------



## vineyarder (Oct 1, 2007)

> If DHH is successful and you like yachts....joining DHH just for the yachts (forget the houses) is worth the membership fee...think of the houses as the bonus.



agree completely; I'll be watching DHH to see if it prospers & stays stable, considering it may be worth joining just as a 'yacht DC'...  

BTW, Nick, since with your yacht experience, etc., and your comment on the yachts being cheaper to buy & maintain than the houses, why not drop the houses and be a 'yacht DC', especially if you're able to buy so well that they are not depreciating assets in your portfolio?


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Oct 1, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> agree completely; I'll be watching DHH to see if it prospers & stays stable, considering it may be worth joining just as a 'yacht DC'...
> 
> BTW, Nick, since with your yacht experience, etc., and your comment on the yachts being cheaper to buy & maintain than the houses, why not drop the houses and be a 'yacht DC', especially if you're able to buy so well that they are not depreciating assets in your portfolio?



This is a GREAT idea and this will work!

I would join in a second if they had a bunch of yachts in the Caribbean, Bahamas, BVIs, etc.


----------



## nick@ihug.co.nz (Oct 1, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> This is a GREAT idea and this will work!
> 
> I would join in a second if they had a bunch of yachts in the Caribbean, Bahamas, BVIs, etc.



We will have eventually a spin off which will be a yacht only club, and you will have the ability to also use the homes as well as part of this club ... and we are currently working on several yacht options for the Caribbean this season , we may have an 86 ft motor yacht or a 70 ft sailing yacht... working on deals now ... join an help us add more of them faster  

We have quite a lot of really good ideas , but i don't want the whole to know just yet  , we will announce something i think is quite a cool benefit to our members in the next few days .....


----------



## travelguy (Oct 2, 2007)

nick@ihug.co.nz said:


> We will have eventually a spin off which will be a yacht only club, and you will have the ability to also use the homes as well as part of this club ... and we are currently working on several yacht options for the Caribbean this season , we may have an 86 ft motor yacht or a 70 ft sailing yacht... working on deals now ... join an help us add more of them faster
> 
> We have quite a lot of really good ideas , but i don't want the whole to know just yet  , we will announce something i think is quite a cool benefit to our members in the next few days .....



Nick,

I would love to see your Biz Plan for a Yacht only club. It would appear to me that even if the Yacht assets maintain their value, any profit from the club would have to come from the pockets of the members.  So the Club becomes a yacht rental program with club "obligations".  Like I said, I'd love to see a 10-yr BP on this concept.


----------



## LTTravel (Oct 3, 2007)

nick@ihug.co.nz said:


> We have quite a lot of really good ideas , but i don't want the whole to know just yet  , we will announce something i think is quite a cool benefit to our members in the next few days .....



Can't give us a little heads up?


----------



## nick@ihug.co.nz (Oct 3, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Can't give us a little heads up?



Sorry guys i have to keep it on the down low for now , don't want anyone else figuring out the secret sauce .... 

Will let you know later next year  ...


----------



## LTTravel (Oct 7, 2007)

nick@ihug.co.nz said:


> \we will announce something i think is quite a cool benefit to our members in the next *few* days .....



It's been six days. Any announcements yet?


----------



## Elsway (Dec 6, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> gotcha.
> 
> then if i were considering joining, i would likely only take into account the 2 things that seem very certain to be ending - the unlimited use by PE, and the PE preview plans with 100% refund standard. i guess it might also be smart to get into UR now if you want equity (80% refund of future value)
> 
> ...




If I am reading this correctly - the Pinnacle ($3MM) membership is expected to increase from $325,000 to $495,000.

Can you provide some insight as to how you arrived at these numbers?


----------



## vivalour (Feb 17, 2008)

*Going for the gold?*

Interesting to see that both Ultimate Resorts and Private Escapes are investing serious $$ in major display ads to boost their memberships -- separately -- while they still work at completing their merger. 

PE has a half page in this Friday's Wall Street Journal, UR has a quarter page below, and the rest of the same page is a display for the St. Regis, Bal Harbor. I also noticed a half-page ad from PE in a major Canadian daily yesterday.


----------

