# Hi, I am a Timeshare salesman who cant read the rules!



## TimeShareProfessional

Yes I sell timeshare. Yes I've done it for years. Yes it works. (Let's get that out of the way first)

So, the majority of this forum that I've seen (granted I haven't gone over it with a fine toothed comb) is mainly fluff. The views and ideas of timeshare here are soooooo far from accurate (as a whole) it makes me wonder where the bulk of this info actually comes from.

Now, to make the playing field as level as possible, let me lay a quick foundation.

1. Timeshare is not for everyone!!!!! (RESORTS are in high demand, high traffic areas thus the price tag associated)

2. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR (pardon the caps but we all know this holds true for any product you purchase)

3. Like any business not all companies are going to be reputable. (I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't go to ebay and buy a cheap Chinese knock off just to say I had an Iphone.)

4. As far as the whole resale market is concerned, good luck. For those of you who have had success with it, congrats! Just know you are the minority. (Also I love the fact that the community here drags timeshare through the mud, yet most people here are either actively traveling or trying to travel this way!)

I would love to hear the communities feedback on why it is a "scam" (I'm so excited to argue with tours who are not actually tours!!! Selling 101 Right or Rich?) So let's have some fun with this.


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## silentg

Have you ever heard of buying something on sale?


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## TimeShareProfessional

Of course I have. What does "on sale" actually mean though??


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## tschwa2

Where do you sell?  If it really is a top end place, many here have probably stayed there possibly in the highest season possible, in the nicest unit available, either in a resale at your resort or trading in with our cheap-y timeshares.

Some here have bought retail and are happy with that.  Some bought retail even after knowing about resales and about TUG and are still happy with that.  
Most know that there are perks available that aren't available resale but resale owners are staying in the exact same resort not in the Chinese knockoff resort.


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## silentg

I agree with you! OP sounds confrontational, trying to do a sales presentation on this forum. We are happy with our timeshares, as you can see we have a diverse inventory. Only bought one week from Developer and that too was a resale, actually an upgrade. Been Timesharing since 1981 and love it! 
Good luck with your timeshare career, you need to soften your approach, we are not 98% fluff! More like 98% know our stuff and we give and take advice from each other without  any monetary gain.
Have a nice evening!
silentg


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## TimeShareProfessional

Where I sell has nothing to do with this conversation so I choose not to disclose that information.

There is no doubt in my mind many probably have. That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm attempting to do, is clear up what the topic of the post was. Fluff. Again I'm curious why people feel the way that they do about timeshare as whole, especially in a place where most people are actively using the very timeshares they talk about. It's such a big contradiction to the ideology that is spread around this board.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Silentg I love your gusto! Thanks for the input. And on the contrary. I do presentations 5 days a week, that's plenty for me! Actually, my aim is to change the long standing misconception of our industry. Especially, on the internet. Personally timeshare has changed my life tremendously. Not only in a successful career, but also in my home and family life. As timeshare owners and travelers, surely you can identify with at least the second half of that statement.


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## tschwa2

Most of the regulars here, I would say average 4 or more timeshares.  We don't  hate them.  We know timeshares aren't for everyone and recommend that people don't jump into something they don't understand completely or overpay for what they are getting. We want people to buy something that will work for them and if buying doesn't work then to enjoy them by renting from other owners.

I asked for location not location and company because I was hoping you would say something like Maui and not something like Orlando as an example of high price resort area with high priced resorts.

 I would love to compare Oranges to Oranges but without disclosing some specifics how can we dispute that lower resales are available at the exact same locations.  Someone tonight was asking about the Hyatt in Maui.  There probably aren't any lower priced alternatives at this time.  If you want a high floor ocean front 2 br in February, you will have to buy from the developer.  Give it a few years.  It's still going to have value and will still be higher  than I what I could afford even on the resale market but it is going to be substantially lower than the $100,000 for one week that is being sold today.


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## slip

You probably should start with an example of the fluff. Most of us here like
Timeshares and what they offer but we by resale. Show us a thread that has 
The fluff.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Ah. I misunderstood your question, even though it was very vague (where do you sell?) Again it still remains a here nor there scenario because what's expensive for some is reasonable or cheap for others. (Don't get me wrong I'm no bill gates! But I've seen owners stroke checks for $100k+ without batting a lash.)

As far as fluff goes, I mean just the common misconceptions of the industry. The cries of scams, rip-offs, over pricing etc... The bulk of what I've seen (again limited as it may be) pertains to these topics. Did I pay enough attention to link you to every thread? No. On the other hand I think any vets here would agree those topics are far too familiar here.


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## DaveNV

I think you're missing a strong element of what TUG is all about.  It is not a place to denigrate timeshares, timesharing, or timeshare owners.  It is a knowledge-sharing forum to help owners and potential owners to get the best bang for their timeshare buck, regardless of how they acquired the timeshares they may have. The vast majority of opinions expressed here are from people who have very real experience in timesharing, and who choose to share their experience for the benefit of others. Nobody here is paid for their services, but everyone is paid a tremendous dividend by understanding the reality of what timesharing is, and how it works.  I would venture that the majority of TUG members think of timesharing as a positive thing in their lives, because they are educated about how best to use it.

In timesharing, knowledge can be a powerful thing.  Knowing how best to use what they own goes a long way toward helping that owner get the most from their ownership.  And knowledgeable owners aren't as likely to fall for the lies being told by slick salespeople of those same timeshares who prey on emotion and unsuspecting people. 

Tricking people into boiler room high-pressure sales experiences indicates pretty loudly that the industry is not being honest with what they sell. If it was such a straightforward product, available for a fair market price, the buying public would be much more willing to buy in, and would have much more positive things to say.  The negative attitude generally held about timesharing did not come from TUG - it came from bitter people who feel they were taken advantage of by fast-talking salespeople, and who did not receive the things they believe they were promised.

TUG is a huge site, with a tremendous amount of very free information.  Spend some time and study the place.  It may help you to better understand the people you want to sell to.

Dave


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## tschwa2

Without any specifics, I think you have more misconceptions about what this site is about than we have about timeshares and timeshare sales.


I could probably count on one hand the places where you can not buy resale for much less than retail while enjoying 90% or more of the same benefits enjoyed by retail owners and those benefits that don't transfer being worth about 1% in the difference in pricing.  Even the ones that you can not buy resale something that has most of the original benefits, the only reason to buy at those places are to go to that resort most of the time and any reason other than that really doesn't work if you look at the numbers carefully.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Thanks for the input Dave. I have seen the site only a handful of times and I was very upfront with that information. Every time I have happened upon the site it has been linked from google for things I mentioned earlier. While the title may seem a little rash, I meant for it to grab users attention. 

As far as the industry goes, It's far from perfect I will agree. But for the same reason you speak your opinion about my ideas, I do the same. For example; the "boiler room" scenario in timeshare presentations is all but dead. That is an idea that has lingered from the 80/90's when timeshare was in its wild west phase. That's where things like rescission came from. Also imho the classic "sleeze bag" sales tag that is attached to anybody in the sales industry is crap. I have never twisted, turned, pressured etc... anybody that I have sold in my career. I have owners to this day who call and thank me and send post cards etc. for help them.


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## bastroum

I love timeshares. I own 20 weeks. Some I bought from developers. Most resale. I have been on dozens of presentations and I can tell you this. NOT ONE TIMESHARE PRESENTATION EVER DISCUSSES THE DOWNSIDE OF OWNING THESE WEEKS. You gloss over how easy it is to trade and go anywhere. You lie by omitting the truth regarding it's value. It takes years to understand how to use timeshares properly. They are not for everyone. This forum teaches people how to use them properly and avoid the pitfalls that are never explained at the sales presentations. One could NEVER explain how to properly purchase and utilize a timeshare in 90 minutes. I manage a sales force for a living and I've never have seen a group of people more dishonest in their presentations than timeshare salespeople.


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## TimeShareProfessional

tschwa2 resale is a very shaky side of timeshare. Can it work? Absolutely! You guys are proof that it can. Realistically speaking though: if you see a retail price of say $20k and a resale on ebay for $1 why is the retail automatically a scam?


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## TimeShareProfessional

bastroum These are some of the things I wanted to talk about. First and foremost, how much do you pay your clients to come and look at you product?


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## ronparise

Very few here drag timeshares through the mud For the most part we are happy owners. What I object to is the way they are sold  And contrary to what you say; In the timeshare world you don't get what you pay for. And while you may sell in high demand areas there is no demand for what you sell. The demand has to be created.! That marketing costs and commissions are over 50 percent of the purchase price is proof of that. Timeshares are sold. Not bought. Wyndhams costs of goods sold is at about 16%. Clearly someone that pays $100 for $16 worth of product is not getting value for his dollar

What I bought on eBay for $7000 last week is worth exactly $7000 and it is the very same thing Wyndham is selling for $100000. From where I sit, Timeshares aren't a scam but tell that to the guy sleeping in the room next to mine after he learns what I paid.


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## TimeShareProfessional

ronparise Thanks for your input. Have you ever stayed at a hotel before?


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## tschwa2

The boiler room is alive and well in hundreds of resorts in the US and Mexico everyday.   So right there I think you are the one with the misconceptions because you haven't experienced as much as those here.  When updates or presentations are informative and low pressure, members love to give kudos and shout outs.  These are the exceptions.

I have been to probably about 7 updates in my lifetime.  I have probably been asked to about 40 in person during vacation stays and at least 20 every year over the phone.  I've been to only one that didn't have at least one typical "sleazebag" on one layer or another that you meet with before saying good bye for the day.


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## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> tschwa2 resale is a very shaky side of timeshare. Can it work? Absolutely! You guys are proof that it can. Realistically speaking though: if you see a retail price of say $20k and a resale on ebay for $1 why is the retail automatically a scam?



It's a scam because if I can buy it for a dollar it is worth a dollar not $20000 
if you are able to get $20000 it is thievery


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## slip

I guess what I don't like about the original post is that it says 98% of the site
Is fluff but later on you say you have only seen some posts through Google and
A little looking around. If your going to say the site is 98% fluff, it should be
Very easy to provide an example. 

As to some of your follow ups. Would you pay $20,000 for something you can 
Get for $1.00? Some people would call that a scam alone.


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## TimeShareProfessional

tschwa2 Sales reps feel the same way about tours, as tours feel about sales reps. I can't tell you all the terms there are for people that take timeshare tours but "moochers" is one of the more popular. 

A lot of sales people in general get frustrated with not selling etc.. so they can be high strung. Consumers on the other hand take money and gifts to take sells presentations and then act appalled when they are asked to buy something. At a sales presentation!!!! I can't tell you how many times I've heard people cry wolf "Oh high pressure" because they are asked to purchase. I can't speak for everyone but there is a big difference in high pressure and asking someone to buy. Also, after the first "owner update" why go back if you don't want anymore? Reps get paid to sell. So to accept monetary gain is subjecting yourself to that environment.


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## bastroum

How about adding a disclosure form in your sales packet. It should state "I understand that I am able to purchase this same timeshare interval on the secondary market for a discount of 80% off the price I am paying. I voluntarily chose to purchase from the developer at the higher price." If the purchaser had to sign that truthful disclosure of value, how many weeks do you think you could sell?


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## DaveNV

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Thanks for the input Dave. I have seen the site only a handful of times and I was very upfront with that information. Every time I have happened upon the site it has been linked from google for things I mentioned earlier. While the title may seem a little rash, I meant for it to grab users attention.
> 
> As far as the industry goes, It's far from perfect I will agree. But for the same reason you speak your opinion about my ideas, I do the same. For example; the "boiler room" scenario in timeshare presentations is all but dead. That is an idea that has lingered from the 80/90's when timeshare was in its wild west phase. That's where things like rescission came from. Also imho the classic "sleeze bag" sales tag that is attached to anybody in the sales industry is crap. I have never twisted, turned, pressured etc... anybody that I have sold in my career. I have owners to this day who call and thank me and send post cards etc. for help them.



Visiting TUG based on a Google link has more to do with the spiders and bots that read the site to create keywords for that link, than it does for the vast majority of the threads and forums on the site.  TUG is huge, and most of the content never makes it outside of the TUG website.  So you need to weigh those links with a certain amount of skepticism.  TUG is much more than that.  I learn something new every time I come here, and while much of what is posted doesn't apply to me, there have been many invaluable tips and tricks to things that I've learned here, that has helped educate me about the timesharing industry, traveling to and from resorts, the resorts themselves, air travel, car rental, and a bunch of other stuff.  It's collectively very helpful.

The sales attitude you reference may be the new trend, but it is not the historical experience of many current timeshare owners. Based on the horror stories told by those who had no idea what they were walking into, I'd say your experience in the industry is pretty rare.  There are countless people who signed on the dotted line only to get out the door - rescission was never mentioned, and they didn't find out about it till too late to rescind. 

Many others will tell stories of attending a "friendly 90 minute informational meeting" (or whatever it was called) in exchange for receiving a gift of some sort, only to be made to feel like they were being held hostage, for a period of time much greater than the 90 minutes they were promised. They are the ones who speak the loudest about how badly they were treated, and not just on TUG.

If the timeshare sales industry as a whole is changing, the experience needs to change for the average person on the street, and it needs to start with the people who are doing the selling.  As long as people feel they have to run away from the experience, the industry will continue to have a black eye.

I have no axe to grind with you, or with the industry as a whole.  But my eyes are wide open to the pitfalls of the situation, and I don't attend sales presentations.  Any industry that sells on commission, as timeshare sales generally are, and that has to misrepresent the product of the sales experience, is going to be a breeding ground for disreputable liars who will say anything to make a sale. It's the nature of the beast.  

If you were to create a poll thread and ask TUG visitors how they'd rate each timeshare sales experience they've ever attended, my strong feeling is the vast majority would rate it in a negative way.  That's a lot of baggage to overcome, if your goal is to convince people that timeshare sales is a positive thing.

Dave


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## TimeShareProfessional

ronparise said:


> It's a scam because if I can buy it for a dollar it is worth a dollar not $20000
> if you are able to get $20000 it is thievery



Most times in that scenario it's the classic too good to be true scenario. In my experience those listings are either back logged with years of unpaid maintenance fees, or the people that bought it either couldn't afford it in the first place or have run into a situation where now it is no longer affordable.

Another good portion are the you get what you pay for scenario I introduced earlier. A lot of those timeshares were bought very inexpensively to begin with, sold with the thought they could buy the off season 1 bedroom in the middle of nowhere and exchange it for the (insert dream trip here.) The reality is they were definitely shown the top of the line first. Once it was established that they wanted it but it wasn't affordable they bought what they were comfortable with. Most times leading to utter disappointment when it "wasn't what they were sold/told on presentation."

Its like cell phones. I can buy a $700 smart phone attached to no company and I have an expensive paper weight/ facebook device or I can buy one on ebay AS IS with no guarantees other than whats in the ad. Or I can sign a 2yr contract, get the phone much cheaper and have SERVICE attached to it. How did you buy your phone?


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## bastroum

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Most times in that scenario it's the classic too good to be true scenario. In my experience those listings are either back logged with years of unpaid maintenance fees, or the people that bought it either couldn't afford it in the first place or have run into a situation where now it is no longer affordable.
> 
> Another good portion are the you get what you pay for scenario I introduced earlier. A lot of those timeshares were bought very inexpensively to begin with, sold with the thought they could buy the off season 1 bedroom in the middle of nowhere and exchange it for the (insert dream trip here.) The reality is they were definitely shown the top of the line first. Once it was established that they wanted it but it wasn't affordable they bought what they were comfortable with. Most times leading to utter disappointment when it "wasn't what they were sold/told on presentation."
> 
> Its like cell phones. I can buy a $700 smart phone attached to no company and I have an expensive paper weight/ facebook device or I can buy one on ebay AS IS with no guarantees other than whats in the ad. Or I can sign a 2yr contract, get the phone much cheaper and have SERVICE attached to it. How did you buy your phone?



If I buy real estate worth $500,000 and find out I cannot afford it, I can sell it for $500,000 (assuming I paid the proper value). If I buy a timeshare from a reputable developer for $50,000 and find out I cannot afford it I can sell it for $10,000 less the brokers 25% fee (another rip-off).

You cannot compare timeshares with cellphones.


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## tschwa2

> Another good portion are the you get what you pay for scenario I introduced earlier. A lot of those timeshares were bought very inexpensively to begin with, sold with the thought they could buy the off season 1 bedroom in the middle of nowhere and exchange it for the (insert dream trip here.) The reality is they were definitely shown the top of the line first. Once it was established that they wanted it but it wasn't affordable they bought what they were comfortable with. Most times leading to utter disappointment when it "wasn't what they were sold/told on presentation."



TUG is just as much about warning against buying cheap off season timeshares as well.  That's why many times the recommendation is just to rent.  Knowing that the customer wants the the filet after selling them on all the benefits, and then selling them the hot dog because that is what they can comfortably afford is not servicing your customer when you don't make it clear that what they are buying is a hot dog and will never be a filet.  

TUG is about finding the filet (at the best price) if you want filet and finding the T bone if that is what you want and explaining that you can get 20 hotdogs by trading in your Tbone but you will probably never get the T bone or filet by trading in your hotdog.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Dave I'm on the same page as you there is no axe to grind. This is mainly for personal information, as a thread in a forum is hardly a crusade for or against any real change.

As for presentations, people as a whole are not dumb. To act or be as naive to think that a company will give them $100 to give their opinion on any particular resort is the first lie ever told on a sales presentation. On top of the fact that every family presents valid ids, proof of marriage and confirms that they are aware it is a 90 min sales presentation before they ever take the tour, there is a wealth of knowledge in every pocket on every smart phone about what they are coming to do. 

Most want to take advantage of the opportunity to profit and then act like the victim when they realize it makes sense to own but they game planned on all the reasons they weren't  going to buy.

As far as the time goes, in that same confirmation it is clearly stated 90min based on your level of interest and it is signed by anyone that takes said tour.


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## Mike&Edie

I am a moocher, I think he is Westgate.

Mike
www.fulltimetimeshare.com


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## TimeShareProfessional

I like it! Taking a guess, but why Westgate?


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## TimeShareProfessional

tschwa2 I like your analogy. The big problem with that idea is that there is pretty extensive paper work outlining exactly what a customer bought. Usually including things like the week, unit, location, points value etc... that they are buying. All signed by all parties involved with what ever rescission period is available. 

Most smaller purchases are sold with an intent for the owner to upgrade or buy more points in the future when finances allow and the smaller package is a way to start experiencing ownership to see if it should be further pursued.


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## DaveNV

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Most times in that scenario it's the classic too good to be true scenario. In my experience those listings are either back logged with years of unpaid maintenance fees, or the people that bought it either couldn't afford it in the first place or have run into a situation where now it is no longer affordable.




My experience buying on eBay has been very different.  I have bought and sold a number of timeshares over the years, and I bought every one of them on eBay. By requesting an estoppel before completing the purchase, I knew exactly what I was getting.  None had outstanding maintenance fees, taxes, or assessments owing.  They were exactly as described in the ad, and there have been no surprises.  None of my purchases were off-season junk weeks.  All were nice weeks in nice resorts, a number of them in Hawaii.

None of it for me was a "too good to be true" situation. (And Developers sell to people who can't afford it all the time, so that's an invalid point.) Circumstances do change for owners, but that also doesn't change the fact that the timeshare was being offered for pennies on the original sales dollar.  If the value was truly there, the resale price would be comparable to what it sold for new.  The price only dropped like it did, and eBay became the sales venue of choice, because there was no resale value to the timeshare being sold.

It is difficult to speak in generalities about timeshare resales, but I can say that in my experience, it has been very direct and easy for me.  The reason is because I educated myself before buying anything.  I knew what to look for, what to look out for, and how to conduct a proper resale purchase.  And I am pleased to say the bulk of that knowledge came from TUG.

My lone remaining timeshare is an oceanfront EOY unit in a well-run, mid-level resort on Kauai that is managed by Wyndham.  Developer sales at this resort were in excess of $10K, but the place was sold out before I found it.  My eBay resale purchase price was less than $100. No matter how you slice it, that is less than 1% of the original selling price, for exactly the same thing.  There would be no reason for me to spend that other 99%.

I took advantage of nobody, and nobody lied to me about what I was buying. In my mind, that makes it a win-win.

Dave


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## DaveNV

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Dave I'm on the same page as you there is no axe to grind. This is mainly for personal information, as a thread in a forum is hardly a crusade for or against any real change.
> 
> As for presentations, people as a whole are not dumb. To act or be as naive to think that a company will give them $100 to give their opinion on any particular resort is the first lie ever told on a sales presentation. On top of the fact that every family presents valid ids, proof of marriage and confirms that they are aware it is a 90 min sales presentation before they ever take the tour, there is a wealth of knowledge in every pocket on every smart phone about what they are coming to do.
> 
> Most want to take advantage of the opportunity to profit and then act like the victim when they realize it makes sense to own but they game planned on all the reasons they weren't  going to buy.
> 
> As far as the time goes, in that same confirmation it is clearly stated 90min based on your level of interest and it is signed by anyone that takes said tour.




Few people I know of would go looking for timeshare presentations to attend.  But many I know of are enticed into attending by people who offer them a gift of some sort if they'll go.  They assure them it's a no pressure thing, and they won't be forced to buy anything.  The sales pressure portion doesn't come until well into the presentation, and when the person says "No thanks," it doesn't stop there.  They are often put through the wringer, made to feel like they're freeloaders and cheapskates, "moochers" as you called them, because they WON'T buy something.  It doesn't matter if they were vetted beforehand - it's the nature of how the sales pitch process is managed.  You know this sort of thing happens all the time.

If buying a timeshare was such a great thing to do, there shouldn't be any reason to offer a person any sort of incentive to attend. People should be knocking on doors asking to attend, rather than being figuratively dragged in off the street, and bribed into submitting to things.  It shouldn't be that hard for the sales people to sell their wonderful product.  But it is.  And that is the baggage part of things you'll have to overcome if you want people to think differently about the process.

Dave


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## tschwa2

The presentation is mostly about the sizzle and not the steak.  The paperwork is all about the steak.  Even if a customer reads the paperwork there is nothing about how the sizzle works and after hearing 60+ minutes about the sizzle they assume their hotdog is going to work the same way.  



> A lot of those timeshares were bought very inexpensively to begin with, sold with the thought they could buy the off season 1 bedroom in the middle of nowhere and exchange it for the (insert dream trip here.) The reality is they were definitely shown the top of the line first. Once it was established that they wanted it but it wasn't affordable they bought what they were comfortable with. Most times leading to utter disappointment when it "wasn't what they were sold/told on presentation."



As a salesperson (who wants happy customers) even if you are selling the lesser package, you need to make sure the buyer understands what they are getting and not fall back on "it was all in the paperwork."  

And very inexpensively is even more of a misnomer than expensive in the timeshare retail world.  $6000-$10,000 is pretty cheap on the retail market but it isn't a non substantial amount.  Ron's example of someone paying $100,000 for what he bought for $7000 isn't as bad as someone paying $10,000 for something that they can't even give away when $10,000 plus MF's was really stretching the limits of what they could afford and then a small change like an illness or layoff happens and they owe $8000 for something that they can't get rid of without taking a hit on their credit.  How about a disclosure both verbally and in the paperwork when you sell them the very inexpensive packages that you could probably find someone to pay you to take this from them and there are 100's of similar packages available for under $50 and this will only have value if you want to trade it in for another more expensive retail package that will likely also have very little value until you get to the $30,000 or more range in the retail packages. 

As you and I both know there are plenty of people out there who won't bat an eye at paying $30,000, $50,000 or $100,000 for something.  Marketing and offering gifts to those who make under $100,000 and really $200,000 is going to result in unhappy salespeople who are going to have to make some unhappy customers because 90% of the presentation is about selling the "dream" of the $50,000+ ownerships.  If Timeshare companies, your included continue to market to those with lower incomes, you need to be straight forward the entire sales presentation and then go up if they want something more than what is shown not go down if they can't afford the top of the line.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Oh lord this has derailed into I love my site hooray for TUG. That is all well and good but the fact remains that the resale market is what it is today based off of the same ideas that the thread was originally started on. Why is that $10k+ timeshare only worth $1 on ebay when they sell at the resort for more money?

Among many reasons, one big one comes back to a familiar theme of this discussion. You get what you pay for. (keep in mind there is no such thing as absolute in this environment) Most resale owners aren't treated the same as retail owners. Most resale owners don't have the same priority etc.. as people that bought from the company. It's the same with many products. 

You can buy a BMW with a rebuilt title that was in a flood, but BMW won't honor any of the warranties or give the same service as if you bought it off the lot would they?

As far as harmless goes, timeshare owners suffer in resale because consumers control 2nd hand deeds or points. Years of public disdain for timeshare is ultimately the reason the resale market is so cheap. If the overall view was different so would the price. That's why a 10 year old BMW that was in a flood still goes for a decent price. Someone is willing to pay the pinto price for the beamer forgoing the best of that product to settle on whats affordable or cost convenient to the buyer.

So maybe I could spin your site and say TUG is in fact the scammer. Users here act like advocates for timeshare companies with little or no knowledge of company policies etc. then encourage users to RENT their weeks or points rather than own, undercutting the resort companies for your own personal gains. Resale buyers COULD pay more to owners for their timeshares, but ultimately resale buyers are in it for themselves. Taking $20k vacations for $100 purchase prices benefits resale buyers not families looking to sale their timeshares. That sounds pretty scammy to me. Yet again, everyone is ultimately in it for their own personal gain with bottom lines being the goal at the end of the day.

But thats a discussion for another day.


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## kpeiper

Personally, I think developers are missing the boat.  If they did more demographic research on their customer base, they could set up discount sales centers away from resorts and sell resale timeshares at outlet malls or such and make a return as a broker for resales.  The model is wrong.  Don't take away benefits on resales, make a commission selling them is a different market.  Happy customers buy in...  Relieved customers exit.  Timeshares from the developer start to get a better image as a better value.  Two tiers of customers.  Focus on truly educating the customer how to use the product with realistic expectations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TimeShareProfessional

BMWguynw I had to clarify this as well. Sales psychology as a whole rests on the fact that the first no is a smoke screen just to test the water. Sometimes to see if there is a better price. Sometimes to see if the sales rep would still treat a customer the same even after rejecting the product or simply as a "no thanks." Even people who have already decided they wanted to buy something often still say no for the reasons stated above.

As far as "bribery marketing" goes it is a necessary evil in our industry. If you saw a sign that said "free sales presentation that way" would you go? If you decided to go how many people would you see there? That's why resorts are marketed the way they are. Most families feel like they can't approach the sites because of $$$ but throw in a gift and people are happy to have someone tell them it isn't affordable.

As far as sales go, most "sales people" are store guides talking to people who came in with a specific purchase in mind or an idea of what they want or need. Real sales involves turning a couple who made a blood pact to deceive their sales rep by any means necessary (many I saw outlined here on the site. Classic.) to new owners by showing them how the product would benefit them. 

Most of you travel this way so is there a benefit? 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155341


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## TUGBrian

things are always going well when you rile up the salesfolk =)

Says alot when you call out tens of thousands of folks on a website, then act surprised when they respond pointing out your ignorance.

(in before the obligatory "oh im not mad/I  dont care about any of you...despite taking the time to post countless paragraphs arguing instead" post)

...troll level 10/10...someone needs attention!

ps.  Ive edited your title, since clearly you cant read the very TUG posting guidelines you agreed to upon registering here (the irony eh?).


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## taterhed

Ha, ha, ha,. I'm going to work now. Thanks for the great laugh.     I'll sign off with my favorite advice given to almost everyone who comes on TUG....  Welcome to TUG,  learn how to use and enjoy your timeshare.   If that's fluff, then give me more!. Chuckle. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TUGBrian

tis your second violation of the posting guidelines you agreed to upon joining, you make a 3rd and you are gone.

although it doesnt surprise me that you either failed to read the rules, or dont think they apply to you given your stated profession.


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## artringwald

The people that are most unhappy with the timeshare industry are the people who borrowed money to buy retail without doing any research. When their budget gets tight and they can't afford to travel, pay the mortgage, and pay the increasing fees, they are shocked to find out they can't sell it for anything close to the original price. They can't give it away unless they pay off the entire balance of the mortgage and any unpaid fees. 

If resales are such a bad deal, developers are scammers for not disclosing how hard it is to get rid of a timeshare when you don't want it anymore.


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## theo

I am not inclined to engage any trolling timeshare sales weasel or his / her lame logic and twisted justifications. Instead, I'll just summarize my own experience, observations and opinions after 30+ years of timeshare ownership (all of it having been acquired in the *resale* market) and my ongoing and very satisfied use. 
Maybe my input is (as our intrepid sales weasel has characterized TUG's collective forum content) "fluff". If you believe that, just ignore accordingly. 

1. Paying grossly inflated developer prices to buy into interval ownership is simply an unnecessary waste of money today, when the exact same product is almost always available in the resale market for just a very tiny fraction of that figure. No amount of creative sales weasel razzamatazz can ever refute or alter that indisputable fact.

2. See item number 1 above. Rinse, lather and repeat. May *all* developer sales weasels starve and / or seek legitimate work elsewhere. Enough said. 

P.S. Typing the above took more time than I would ever give *any* deceitful sales weasel in a "presentation", regardless of the "gift" to attend. YMMV.


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## Jason245

I have the following questions:

1. What is your compensation model and what percentage of your compensation is based on commission and what percent of the sales price gets paid to you as comission when you make a sale?

2. There are many resales available through licensed real estate agents, why would those not be acceptable, especially given that prices are so far below the prices offered during sales presentations? 

3. How many clients who want to buy have you steared away because they obviously couldn't afford the comittment you were trying to sell them? (e.g. through your discussions with them, you found out that they were facing fincancial difficulties, had low credit scored, etc...) 

4. How much emphasis have you made to people about the fact that the process to resell a timeshare is difficult and that when buying, some resorts will  make you PAY THEM to take back the dead (if they are even willing to take them back at all). Some resort groups are so consummer unfriendly that they actually create significant hardships that devalue the resale product so much, that the units are near worthless on the resale market through all kinds of rules that disallow resale owners the same reservation windows and benefits that they have on their deed  and high transfer fees that are not disclosed during the sales presenation.   This makes it hard for people 5-10-20 years down the line who can no longer use their product sell it and get their "investment" back. 

5. How often have you advised customers that they should have their attorney read over the paperwork before they sign?

6. Have you ever helped one of your customers create a budget to confirm that they could afford making the payments on the property,  and discouraged a customer from putting the payments on a credit card if they carry a balance, discouraged customers who can obviously not afford to buy (don't have enough in savings, are living pay check to pay check etc) from buying??

As an aside, I actually believe that the timeshare model can and does work where the purchase price is a true investment for exactly one resort group (as I have seen with hard numbers).  That group is DVC which surprisingly doesn't have all the hidden fees and all the things that make it hard to sell. I know someone who bought at $50 a point in 1991 at OKW and they can now get at least $75 a point (on top of that he got 10 years of Disney tickets as part of his purchase).  Ironically, DVC isn't even a real estate investment since it is RTU.


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## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> BMWguynw I had to clarify this as well. Sales psychology as a whole rests on the fact that the first no is a smoke screen just to test the water. Sometimes to see if there is a better price. Sometimes to see if the sales rep would still treat a customer the same even after rejecting the product or simply as a "no thanks." Even people who have already decided they wanted to buy something often still say no for the reasons stated above.
> 
> As far as "bribery marketing" goes it is a necessary evil in our industry. If you saw a sign that said "free sales presentation that way" would you go? If you decided to go how many people would you see there? That's why resorts are marketed the way they are. Most families feel like they can't approach the sites because of $$$ but throw in a gift and people are happy to have someone tell them it isn't affordable.
> 
> As far as sales go, most "sales people" are store guides talking to people who came in with a specific purchase in mind or an idea of what they want or need. Real sales involves turning a couple who made a blood pact to deceive their sales rep by any means necessary (many I saw outlined here on the site. Classic.) to new owners by showing them how the product would benefit them.
> 
> Most of you travel this way so is there a benefit?
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155341



If someone offered you $500 to sit in a chair for 3 hours, would you? Most people don't make more than $150 an hour. 

These people aren't there to deceive you, they are at the table for the same reason as you. To make money. They walk in telling you that they have no intention or means to buy, and are only there for the money they were promised. That seems to be the very definition of honesty.


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## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> ronparise Thanks for your input. Have you ever stayed at a hotel before?



Sure I have. Make your point


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## Ken555

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Personally timeshare has changed my life tremendously. Not only in a successful career, but also in my home and family life.




This tells me all I need to know about your goals here. You claim to be successful in your career selling timeshares. If true, then you have very little benefit by truly understanding why many of us believe the perks/fluff developers add to direct sales vs resale sales are beneficial. While I can appreciate the success you feel in earning a livable wage, it is likely due mostly to uninformed buyers. You may believe your buyers understand what they purchase, but I would bet the vast majority have no concept of the resale market nor the actual differences between them. This site would not exist if developers offered a nice product at a reasonable price (nor the many independent sales organizations and agents who specialize in resale sales).

It is in your interest to create perceived differences between resale and developer purchased weeks, yet the best the industry appears to have done (in large part) is unit view and location, reservation timing, potential upgrade or other minor benefits, conversion to hotel points (if the resort is managed by a large hotel provider), etc. I'm sure your sales presentation emphasizes these benefits and the associated ease of use, though we know better.

You compare resale weeks to a rebuilt BMW with a salvage title, which certainly says a lot about how you approach the distinction between resale and developer purchased weeks. When we stay at a resort the unit we receive likely was occupied by a developer purchaser the week prior and after us. There is no fundamental difference between their stay and mine, with the same access rights at the resort, the same ability to use amenities and services, and the same experience throughout. In most cases the staff at the resort have no idea we are resale purchasers and don't care at all (only the sales office would care...). 

We need developer purchasers to keep resorts in business. Keep doing your job, enjoy it, and understand your market (which supposedly is why you are here, based on your first post). Resale purchasers will most likely not buy from you since we do not recognize the benefit that comes from developer perks as being worth the cost.

I also find if fitting that a timeshare salesperson would not spend time reading TUG before posting. You are impatient, and it seems true to your industry not to read the details. That's unfortunate.


Sent from my iPad


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## e.bram

OP:
Will your company sell and accept financing from a single member LLC, w/o a personal guarantee?


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## rhonda

Reality warp??

Edited to clarify:  Sounds to me like there is a strong reality distortion field surrounding the OP.  Getting any real dialog through that field unscathed could be mostly impossible.


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## rickandcindy23

Timeshares don't hold their value in resale.  If I buy it for $20K, then I should be able to pass along all benefits I got to someone else for $20K, but it doesn't work that way.  That is why buying developer is a waste of money.  It's worse than buying a car new for $20K, and then finding out you could have bought one with 100 miles on it for $500.

But that doesn't happen with cars; it does happen with timeshare.  

Of course, Marriott is a little better, as is Hilton and a few others.  Very few timeshares pass the same benefits to resale buyers.


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## Beefnot

Every time I read anti-developer scammer tirades on TUG, it usually irritates me. Don't get me wrong, I would suggest an inquiring TUGger or anyone I know to rescind and buy resale. It makes zero financial sense to me to buy at full retail what I can buy for 0-10% on the dollar. But I don't excoriate all sales weasels for doing what they do. Sales and marketing in any industry is a necessary "evil" to create demand and move product. People do not snub RC Cola because Pepsi tastes better, they buy Pepsi because Pepsico invests billions to create demand for their flavored corn syrup.

 Many on TUG are a conflicted bunch. Rant against developers and sales folk while touting the fantastic variety and quality of resorts they stay at. Do you not understand that the variety and quality would absolutely not exist to the extent it does without the very healthy financial incentives of developers to do so? I am all in favor of levels of decency in sales tactics, but I also recognize that "pressure" of some sort is a necessary component to getting people to buy, be it timeshares or cars or whatever.

 To OP, you are way off about the fluff and way way off with your analogies. I routinely stay in 4 star 2BR accommodations for under $100 per night all in including acquisition costs.  I may not get preferred views or some other retail perks, but my incremental savings over retail exponentially compensate me for those lack of perks. More power to you good sir in your career. The skills of you and your colleagues will allow me to continue to enjoy the immense travel experiences my family has enjoyed over the last 3+ years for many more to come. But just understand that I will encourage my friends and family to always purchase resale.


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## Mister Sir

I've just read through this entire thread while formulating rebuttals and replies and I finally realized the only thing I want to say is: 

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!


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## silentg

The first timeshare we bought was a little one bedroom in Vermont. We were young married couple with one little boy.  I saw an ad in a local (Boston) newspaper, for a weekend in Vermont for $9.00.  My husband did not take vacations and was working for all of us, I was home with the baby.  I persuaded him to take the weekend off and go on this timeshare vacation.  As we drove to the destination, I became disenchanted with the idea, it was way up in the mountains, we hit thunderstorms etc.  We arrived and two salesmen, very nice welcomed us and showed us our timeshare.  We were excited at the thought of staying here for a few days, but  in the back of my mind said this is not what I want.  We were given a tour, and food vouchers for local restaurants and a sales pitch.  I was ready to; walk away, but my husband was impressed.  The thing that got me to agree to this was my husband, he said he would have to take at least one week of vacation each year if we purchased it.  It was a 30 year RTU.  for $4,500.  We made payments over 6 months.  and maintenance fee was under 100 dollars a year. We joined II and exchanged a few years in.  We went there when our kids were small, we had a daughter a few years after we bought.  Had a few hiccups with the resort, changing hands, being closed etc. but I can honestly say we enjoyed that timeshare very much. Especially when we traded it thru RCI. It was a red 4th of July week. So we got the best trades for it,, lot of 2 bedrooms etc.   Now to get to the point, I am happy with the timeshares we have purchased since.  Have bought and sold a few here with the advice of Tug members.  I do not go to sales presentations. I tell them I am on vacation and want to enjoy all the amenities that you promise me without taking personal time to do a tour. I politely tell them I don't want to waste your time or mine, sitting thru a sales presentation.  I have learned so much about timeshares thru my fellow tug members.  This is not a fluff site.  

We also let each other know what to expect when they go somewhere new, and write reviews for each other.  There are some group meetings if I can make them I try to go.
This is a hobby, vacation planning, I enjoy doing it.  Glad I listened to my husband now we have 5 weeks and bonuses.  More than enough!
Thanks for reading my long but explanatory post !
silentg


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## presley

Got bored of thread before the end of the first page and didn't read all the posts. Just wanted to let the OP know that s/he isn't the first or the last "timeshare salesperson" who has come here starting a thread to stir the pot and then run off crying later that day or at the very longest, a couple days later.


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## theo

*Yessa!*



Ken555 said:


> You compare resale weeks to a rebuilt BMW with a salvage title, which certainly says a lot about how you approach the distinction between resale and developer purchased weeks. *When we stay at a resort the unit we receive likely was occupied by a developer purchaser the week prior and after us. There is no fundamental difference between their stay and mine*, with the same access rights at the resort, the same ability to use amenities and services, and the same experience throughout. In most cases the staff at the resort have no idea we are resale purchasers and don't care at all (only the sales office would care...).



Absolutely true and very well said. A hungry sales weasel might (i.e., will) always make futile attempts to fabricate imaginary differences between developer-direct and resale purchases but, in the end, can never truthfully or magically make them "different".  I think we can rest comfortably assured that our intrepid visiting sales weasel simply isn't going to even touch that topic, since there is *nothing* he can possibly say to alter or impact the undeniable truth. If he comes back at all, it will be with some non-responsive, irrelevant commentary and deflection attempting to somehow sanitize the parallel universe in which he lives and sells. 
Personally, I'm done with this troll right here and right now. YMMV. 

It is irrefutably true that there would be no resales without original developer sales, but I choose to leave it to naive and uninformed others to pay those hefty, inflated developer prices (and sales weasel commissions), having failed to conduct adequate research before their purchase --- as is certainly their right and prerogative.


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## billymach4

Timeshare salesman have a job to do. We reap the benefits.

Have glanced over this thread, and what I am about to say may have already been written. 

Mr Timeshare salesman Welcome to TUG. Thanks for participating. You and your peers must sell a product that has been marked up for various reasons. As we all know the product is resell-able.

Most resorts systems and developers are not interested in the resale end since they don't make as much $$$. Marriott has a decent resale program, but it is not well promoted at all. More like word of mouth here on TUG. A salesman at a sales  center is not there to sell resale.

You guys sell first. The First buyer then sells on the open market, and finds out the value has depreciated. The resale market then determines the price by way of location, amenities, and demand.

It is that simple. 

Please continue to promote your product. So we here on Tug can the educate the truth to the members and guests.

Thank you, and please come back.


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## silentg

This has become a pissing match!  I was putting in a good word or two for TUG.  Not begrudging the OP for his point of view. Not defensive of mine.  I love TUG but the negative comments, especially after my last post are rude!  If you have an opinion, please read what I had to say without commenting how bored you are.  Sorry I am not the best story teller but I gave my honest assessment on the subject of tug, which is it is not FLUFF!  We Tuggers need to be on  the same side, not critical or bored by each other!
Silentg


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## davidvel

He probably works for a "lesser" company that's afraid of "moochers". I've never shown ID nor proof of marriage at a presentation.


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## Beefnot

silentg said:


> This has become a pissing match! I was putting in a good word or two for TUG. Not begrudging the OP for his point of view. Not defensive of mine. I love TUG but the negative comments, especially after my last post are rude! If you have an opinion, please read what I had to say without commenting how bored you are. Sorry I am not the best story teller but I gave my honest assessment on the subject of tug, which is it is not FLUFF! We Tuggers need to be on the same side, not critical or bored by each other!
> Silentg



I doubt anyone was bored by your posts in particular, and I enjoyed that last post of yours personally.


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## Ken555

Beefnot said:


> I doubt anyone was bored by your posts in particular, and I enjoyed that last post of yours personally.




+1

Of course, a thread like this will have a predictable outcome...


Sent from my iPad


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## 1950bing

Sorry guy, timeshare salesman lie and promise the moon to get you to sign.
The pressure cooker IS alive and well. I still say that buying a timeshare was the worst thing I have ever done.


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## taterhed

> This has become a pissing match! I was putting in a good word or two for TUG. Not begrudging the OP for his point of view. Not defensive of mine. I love TUG but the negative comments, especially after my last post are rude! If you have an opinion, please read what I had to say without commenting how bored you are. Sorry I am not the best story teller but I gave my honest assessment on the subject of tug, which is it is not FLUFF! We Tuggers need to be on the same side, not critical or bored by each other!
> Silentg


 
I think he meant he was tired of reading the troll's posts/replies on the first page. I read your story and liked it. Wish we had started earlier.... thanks for sharing. It was not boring. Not sure about being 'fluffy' 

from my cell...


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## silentg

Thanks for the support, I should not take comments personal, but my point is not about Salesmen and their tactics, just let us enjoy our timeshare vacations. we bought them got them use them and love them.  Now I want a fluffernutter!
silentg


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## Timeshare Von

Mister Sir said:


> I've just read through this entire thread while formulating rebuttals and replies and I finally realized the only thing I want to say is:
> 
> DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!!



Pretty much, YEP!


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## Timeshare Von

presley said:


> Got bored of thread before the end of the first page and didn't read all the posts. Just wanted to let the OP know that s/he isn't the first or the last "timeshare salesperson" who has come here starting a thread to stir the pot and then run off crying later that day or at the very longest, a couple days later.



Pretty much . . . yep #2!


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## Iggyearl

*He's probably gone but....*

I am a "timeshare voyeur" who has lurked on this site for the past 2 years.  Additionally, I have gone through the process of googling all the major timeshare players along with the words "problems, complaints, lies, regrets," etc.  Quite an eyeopener. 

Having followed so many threads on this site, I can't imagine the word "fluff" being used to describe the content or the members.  I think that TUG members are intelligent, sophisticated, compassionate, caring and helpful.  They like to vacation, and have the means to do so.  Cost effectiveness is a major goal.

For the OP (who is probably gone),  do you own one of your "full freight" retail timeshares which you purchased for your own use?  How many timeshares have you sold to family, friends, and business associates outside of your company?  

And for future reference - if I bought a timeshare from you today, and paid list price, what would you say to me in 6 months if I lost my wife, my job or my health?  How would you help me?  TUG would - but I don't know about you....


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## Timeshare Von

To the original poster . . . here is my long (nearly 35 years) history with the timeshare industry . . .

Bought my first timeshare sight unseen from a sales office in Crystal City, VA.  They had a nice mock up of the development going in up in the Poconos. As a young 20 something single gal, I bought into the concept for the future.  What I bought was a 13 year RTU with the potential to buy a 7 year add-on for 10% of my original purchase price. I did it gladly . . . and thoroughly loved my timeshare ownership.

Yes, I saw many changes as the timeshare industry evolved . . . mostly with RCI . . . and not to the benefit of T/S owners.  Did you know that back in the day, if your spacebanked deposit with RCI was not used by another exchanger within something like 30 days out of your week's date, you got it back to use yourself . . . in addition to whatever exchange you got for the deposit?  I benefited from that twice in my first few years ow ownership at Split Rock Resort.

As I approached the end of the 20 year RTU agreement, I knew I would want to own another timeshare.  I actually did a presentation and bought at Wyndham Kingsgate in 2000 or 2001.  It was a points contract for around $12,000 as I recall.

I learned of resale while still in town, so I rescinded that purchase when I purchased from a local resale office in Williamsburg. I paid $5,000 for a three bedroom lock-off at Kingsgate; fixed week #18.  I used that thing a lot!  We stayed there many time; with the lock-off we could deposit for two weeks at RCI.  Often we could use the 1BR side to get a week in a 2BR unit in Hawaii.  MANY TIMES we did that.  Of course, that little "internal value" benefit went away too.  With the advent of TPU with RCI, this resort was significantly devalued, so I gave it away here on TUG.

Some might say I overpaid for that timeshare. I owned it for over 10 years, went to Hawaii with it at least half a dozen times . . . and their MF's were pretty reasonable, so I feel we got decent value with it.

In 2002, I bought a floating 1-52 week in Waikiki from someone I connected with through eBay.  Paid something just over $2,000 for a unit that would be convenient for a conference I had coming up the following year.  The MF's were under $300 at the time.  This little bargain was an outstanding investment as we have stayed there probably 3 or 4 times; rented it out to friends a few times . . . and bartered it for an RV swap up in Alaska for 4 years of use. 

A couple of years later (2004) I acquired another fixed week, #13 at Wyndham Flagstaff for free.  The previous owner had bought it when she was single. Living in the Phoenix area, she loved her late March week to get away from the desert.  With family changes, however, she got to where with kids, she rarely used the ownership and didn't really use RCI for exchanges either.  

She gave me the week for free, plus what was left of her RCI membership including two weeks in the spacebank.  I paid for the transfer and title work; she was just happy to be free & clear of the MFs.

As mentioned above about the changes with RCI, this little gem became less valued in our ownership and vacation plans, so when the resort's POA/HOA offered a free deedback program a few years ago, we jumped on it.  We didn't pay anything for it so we lost nothing in giving it back to them.

The last ownership we acquired which we also still own, is a small 77k point Wyndham contract given to me by my sister.  They bought it back in the 90's but wasn't using it as much as their vacation style changed from timeshare weekend type stuff, to cruising.  They weren't using the points and found it difficult to send friends/family due to the Wyndham gift certificate policy.  So they just gave it away.

We were happy to just have it . . . and have used the points for some RCI exchanges and some Wyndham stays mostly for my work.  We did stay at our "home resort" this past Christmas and really liked it.  Sure 77k points isn't much, but it works for us.

So you see, other than buying that very first one from the developer, we've done pretty well with our ownership through the secondary/resale market.  The key is to recognize when things stop working for you and not staying emotionally attached.  Divest when you need to and you'll be fine.

At some point our Waikiki ownership or the Wyndham points contract may stop working for us . . . and we'll gladly pass them on.  The good news is that the Waikiki is still having some resale value, not much, but enough to be worth selling it rather than giving it away.

I do not ever see there being a reason why a savvy owner needs to buy from a timeshare developer or sales agent.

Speaking of which . . . I should also say that my hubby and I worked for Northcourse as independent contractors back from 2005 to 2007.  Are you familiar with them?  If not, what I will tell you is that we were contracted to do "mystery shops" of a variety of timeshare sales offices.  Several of the major players in the industry would contract to Northcourse to have their sales offices and staff shopped.  During that two year period, we personally saw the dark underbelly of the beast, first hand.  Some of the things we experienced were the very reasons why many are leery of timeshare salespeople.  It was a lot of fun, actually being paid to shop timeshares . . . buy and rescind . . . and see just what lengths some companies and salesmen would go to get and keep a sale.

Well this has been a very long winded response.  I actually doubt you've made it to the end.  If you did . . . I'm amazed.

Best wishes . . . and have a nice Memorial Day Weekend.


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## DeniseM

The OP is the very personification of why I don't go to "owner's updates," or any other kind of TS sales presentations.  You are wasting your breath (er fingers)  on him.


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## DaveNV

DeniseM said:


> The OP is the very personification of why I don't go to "owner's updates," or any other kind of TS sales presentations.  You are wasting your breath (er fingers)  on him.



No worries from me - I'm done responding to him. I tried to be kind, but it soon slipped into the same old rhetoric.

Once he defended the gifting as necessary in order to draw in potential buyers, then referred to those potential customers as "moochers," and went on to basically blame them for wasting HIS time, I knew it was all over.  It's like a doctor blaming his patients for getting sick.

Dave


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## LannyPC

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Years of public disdain for timeshare is ultimately the reason the resale market is so cheap. If the overall view was different so would the price.



The reason why "the resale market is so cheap" is because the supply far outstrips the demand.  There are way more owners trying to sell than there are people wanting to buy.  That's the simple law of supply and demand.

And by the way, I don't have a disdain for timeshares.  I love staying in them.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Calm down everybody I was busy welcoming a new family to the wonderful world of timeshare. I will respond to everyone just give me a few... Sales weasel is pretty funny! Actually I have a B.A. in Comp Sci but I work less and make wayyyyy more helping families IMPROVE their vacation life style.

Why the name calling??? Are you guys all doctors or something...


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## TimeShareProfessional

Also I'm pretty disappointed no one even attempted to answer the fine example I posted earlier in the thread. Ultimately the answer would have been both timeshares and BMW are known for luxury. While BMW has enjoyed praise, timeshare is essentially thrown under the bus. Keep in mind both are indeed LUXURY items. 

Ronpraise? Hotels are simply a product. If you pay attention to them, 1 in 3 or 4 tv commercials is a hotel advertisement ie Priceline, Expedia etc... If you were to book a room at your favorite hotel, you would most likely use one of these sites to do so. If you knocked on 10 doors on the same floor, do you think everyone paid the same rate??

Lets say it costs $10mil to build a new Hilton hotel with 120 rooms. Each room goes for an avg. of $119. Do that math for a day, then a week, then a month and then finally a year. 

Yet hotels are not a scam  Have you ever lost sleep at said hotel wondering what your neighbor paid? Personally it has never crossed my mind.


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## TimeShareProfessional

BMWguynw You started out with such intelligent conversation, but the moment you hit a wall you went to the classic poo throw. First of all, I said the industry has such terms. The same as sales weasel for example has been tossed at in the last few posts. Second, I never said families were wasting my time, though a lot of reps often feel this way. I am grateful for any opportunity I have to help a family and make a sale. It is after all, my profession. 

You also never answered my question about a free sales presentation! It's OK though I already know the answer. Consumers as a whole have been conditioned to repel sales people. For example; You're at your favorite clothing store looking for the pair of jeans you saw your favorite celebrity wearing. The sales associate at said store walks up to you, says a quick "hello" and asks if you need help finding anything. Knowing good and well exactly why you are there coupled with the fact that you still haven't located those jeans, you still respond with the classic "No thanks, I'm just looking" Why? He is attempting to sell you something.


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## TimeShareProfessional

And finally, if resale is such a great value and you all seem to be against the weasel developers, why not pay more for the resale? Why not help the very people you attempt to "defend" with your TUG jobs (sorry too good to pass up moderators) by simply saying something along the lines of:

"You know what, that awful company over charged you for that timeshare. I feel your pain. Wow! You paid $20k for that timeshare yet your listing it for $100. Rather than rip you off, why don't I pay you $6k" Thats 1/3 the retail price. Seems pretty fair for both sides.

The reality of the situation is what I said earlier. You care as much about that person as you say the developers do. The full scope is this. If sou spend $2500 a year RENTING vacations for the next 10 years you will spend $25000 correct?

If you spend $20k on a timeshare, use it for 10 years and then sell it for $100 did you not get a better return on your vacation dollar and have more quality vacations for the same money?? I know most of you have heard the example in same shape, form or fashion yet it's true. Renters don't sell receipts, owners have an opportunity to recoup at least some of the dollars they traveled on. :deadhorse: 

*Mic drop*


----------



## Jason245

I thought I asked you some relevant and important questions.  Are you going to answer any of them?


----------



## slip

You're comparisons are the most ridiculous ones I've ever heard of. I Think you
Know what your saying is incorrect. If not, do a little more research here on
TUG and then you'll find out.


----------



## taterhed

Can't you just smell the bait?. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> And finally, if resale is such a great value and you all seem to be against the weasel developers, why not pay more for the resale? Why not help the very people you attempt to "defend" with your TUG jobs (sorry too good to pass up moderators) by simply saying something along the lines of:
> 
> "You know what, that awful company over charged you for that timeshare. I feel your pain. Wow! You paid $20k for that timeshare yet your listing it for $100. Rather than rip you off, why don't I pay you $6k" Thats 1/3 the retail price. Seems pretty fair for both sides.
> 
> The reality of the situation is what I said earlier. You care as much about that person as you say the developers do. The full scope is this. If sou spend $2500 a year RENTING vacations for the next 10 years you will spend $25000 correct?
> 
> If you spend $20k on a timeshare, use it for 10 years and then sell it for $100 did you not get a better return on your vacation dollar and have more quality vacations for the same money?? I know most of you have heard the example in same shape, form or fashion yet it's true. Renters don't sell receipts, owners have an opportunity to recoup at least some of the dollars they traveled on. :deadhorse:
> 
> *Mic drop*


How many of your former clients who have found themselves in hard financial straights have you helped when they can no longer afford the product you sold them?

Tug on average (based on my review of the message board ) seems to help at least one person a week who finds themselves in these situations by giving advise to prevent these people falling for scammers and others trying to take advantage and providing a resale market where timeshares Are listed as low as free to as high as thousands to tens of thousands of dollars.  All that for nothing or next to nothing.


----------



## TJC

TimeShareProfessional said:


> If you spend $20k on a timeshare, use it for 10 years and then sell it for $100 did you not get a better return on your vacation dollar and have more quality vacations for the same money??*



I can appreciate the point that you are trying to make, however, like many of your fellow salesman, you forget that there are maintenance fees every year. So $20k + ($2k * 10) = $40k for 10 years of the same vacations.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Also I'm pretty disappointed no one even attempted to answer the fine example I posted earlier in the thread. Ultimately the answer would have been both timeshares and BMW are known for luxury. While BMW has enjoyed praise, timeshare is essentially thrown under the bus. Keep in mind both are indeed LUXURY items.



I am confused about this BMW comparison. When I walk into a BMW shop and buy one, there is a sales man who sells me the car. 3,5,10 years later, when I walk back into the same shop (and see the same sales guy), he will Buy my car (without me buying a car from him or spending a penny out of pocket) from me for cash. 

If during year 2 of my ownership, I lose my job and can no longer afford to make payments, The dealer is usually more then happy to buy my car back for a FMV as valued by a third party (kelly blue book, edmunds, etc). 

To the best of my knowledge this is not the case with a timeshare (although I am confident you or someone else can chime in).


----------



## tante

This sales guy is making some of the dumbest analogies i have ever heard.


----------



## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Also I'm pretty disappointed no one even attempted to answer the fine example I posted earlier in the thread. Ultimately the answer would have been both timeshares and BMW are known for luxury. While BMW has enjoyed praise, timeshare is essentially thrown under the bus. Keep in mind both are indeed LUXURY items.
> 
> Ronpraise? Hotels are simply a product. If you pay attention to them, 1 in 3 or 4 tv commercials is a hotel advertisement ie Priceline, Expedia etc... If you were to book a room at your favorite hotel, you would most likely use one of these sites to do so. If you knocked on 10 doors on the same floor, do you think everyone paid the same rate??
> 
> Lets say it costs $10mil to build a new Hilton hotel with 120 rooms. Each room goes for an avg. of $119. Do that math for a day, then a week, then a month and then finally a year.
> 
> Yet hotels are not a scam  Have you ever lost sleep at said hotel wondering what your neighbor paid? Personally it has never crossed my mind.



Hotels are a one time rental if I find out I could have gotten the same space at half the price I'll learn from that and do better next time. Timeshares are forever
If I make a mistake it's tough to recover  Comparing the purchase of a time share, a lifetime of memories, with a hotel, no more than a one night  stand just doesn't work. (Although I do have fond memories of a few one night stands)

I think you started this telling us that most of what you see here is fluff  and that most of us don't know much about timeshares.  I hope you are learning that we know more than you think. I would bet that some some of us own more timeshares than you have sold in your career. And I am in awe of the experience and knowledge that so many bring to this forum

I can't figure out your angle here. You had to know you weren't going to make a sale. Or change any minds. That's the downside of all our knowledge and experience; we are pretty set in our ways

Perhaps if you had come to us with a little humility and respect. And ask for our help. I know I've referred several people to a certain Wyndham salesman and i will again when I think it's the right thing for the person I'm advising. And I've made purchases myself from the same salesman. You see we respect one another.
Sorry to talk to you like a child but at my age I suspect I could be your grandfather and you sound so damned immature


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

1. Depends on the size of the sell. Bank! (Not going to divulge but it pays well... 6 figures if you are good)

2. See cell phone analogy

3. 100% of the families on timeshare presentations are on vacation spending money to travel. Most already have a yearly commitment to travel 1,2 or 3 times a year. Regardless of a timeshare, they chose those travel habits (hence everyone on presentation is from somewhere else) that they have based on their families wants, needs or interest in vacationing. 

Whether they buy a timeshare or not, the vacation will always be there for the reasons they travel. The investment and the commitment are both made to the family, not the timeshare. The reality of the situation is they are committed to spending the money if they choose to travel. Vacation is never free. 

As a whole, families in bad financial situations typically don't travel, especially not to resort areas where the cost is usually always greater.

4.Timeshare should never be sold as an  "investment" to be flipped for monetary gain. Have you ever gone on vacation and wondered how much you could make for doing it? Like I said earlier, stay at the same hotel for the next 20 years. Let the owner and staff get to know you and your family so well they know your kids and how well they do at sports. On year 21 with a relationship built to this magnitude, Walk and see if the owner offers you a deed to one of the hotel rooms or has his money out for you to pay again for the same room to rent.

5. Do you call your attorney and ask him when, where or how you should go on vacation???  Does he pay your way or offer advice on the best bang for your buck?? Or do you go where you want to go and spend what you want?

6. Budgets are always discussed when considering if you should purchase a timeshare or not. Do you ever sit down and calculate how much $$ you have spent in the past and will spend in the future?? That's you budget right there.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Calm down everybody I was busy welcoming a new family to the wonderful world of timeshare. I will respond to everyone just give me a few... Sales weasel is pretty funny! Actually I have a B.A. in Comp Sci but I work less and make wayyyyy more helping families IMPROVE their vacation life style.
> 
> Why the name calling??? Are you guys all doctors or something...



So as an educated professional who got their degree, you fully understand where the economy is going. 

The generation you are selling to has more information then ever, and is asking for advise and opinions in order to make purchasing decisions. They are using the internet to fact check. 

Tug is not anti developer, TUG is PRO an informed and educated consumer. About half of all people on this board made their first purchase from a developer. 

A number of sales people are not forthright with their customers, do not tell them about all the costs, extra costs (possibilities for assessments), the dificulties liquidating an ownership, the extra fees to transfer ownership, the limited reservation windows, and other limitations of a timeshare, while instead focusing on the positive aspects of ownership. That sales strategy works on an uneducated consumer base with no access to information. If you are upfront with your customers, Treat them in a way that ensures they fully understand what they are signing up for, act in a morally responsible way towards those who can not afford the "luxury" you are selling and don't treat them as a giant check, great for you because you will succeed in the comming changing economy. Most are not that way, but they have great conversion rates and it will last for a time. If you don't believe me, just ask the Admissions employees at For Profit Higher Education, In that instance Goverment money is what caused a significant acceleration in administrative action, Time shares will be slower, but within the next 10 years I expect significant changes.


----------



## Ken555

This is a joke, and a waste of time. He's not offering anything new and simply deflecting the valid points made in this thread by many. Timeshare sales love comparisons since it's so difficult for buyers to comprehend how to rationalize a timeshare purchase, especially an expensive unit. I suspect this thread is just for entertainment.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## RX8

Ken555 said:


> This is a joke, and a waste of time. He's not offering anything new and simply deflecting the valid points made in this thread by many. Timeshare sales love comparisons since it's so difficult for buyers to comprehend how to rationalize a timeshare purchase, especially an expensive unit. I suspect this thread is just for entertainment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Agree.  

I think he is trolling to gather information on how to counter timeshare presentation victims who are resistant to saying yes.

Buying a timeshare retail isn't any different than paying $100 for a bottle of ketchup.  The timeshare salesmen need all the "fluff" they can come up with to convince the buyer the ketchup is REALLY good.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Tante which one? Or is that just a sheeple move to fit in with your peers....

Ron most families stay in hotels year after year when they vacation. It is a billion dollar industry. Unless you do alternatives like timeshares you pay those prices every year. In the example given to you, That's $5.2mil a year. Take out staff cost upkeep etc. that's a good profit. 

If you break it down as a single family who vacations 2 weeks a year, That would be $1666 a year on a hotel room. With all the crap and lack of amenities and quality  that hotels are known for. In 10 years that's $17000 without inflation and a guarantee you will do it for the next 10, 15 or 20 years with no potential for any resell unless you keep your receipts and post them on ebay. (good luck!)

Never came to sell anyone anything... believe what you will. Facts are facts.

You refer people to buy retail when your on a resale website GGz makes a lot of sense. Talk how you'd like, but I guarantee your parents nor your grandparents for the matter raised you to believe renting was better than owning. Age is not always wisdom my friend.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Jason I'm 32 its my generation. I sold a couple just today in my same age bracket with smart phones in tow. RETAIL. 

Ken and Rx elaborate please. Comparison is breaking down data. How else can you say it is a good or bad move?? Waiting.


----------



## tante

Any analogy to compare a timeshare to a car, cell phone, or hotel room is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

tante said:


> Any analogy to compare a timeshare to a car, cell phone, or hotel room is absolutely ridiculous.



Again now's your chance to show me in front of your peers. How is it ridiculous??? 

All are prime examples given in proper context. Deflate them please.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> 1. Depends on the size of the sell. Bank! (Not going to divulge but it pays well... 6 figures if you are good)
> 
> 2. See cell phone analogy
> 
> 3. 100% of the families on timeshare presentations are on vacation spending money to travel. Most already have a yearly commitment to travel 1,2 or 3 times a year. Regardless of a timeshare, they chose those travel habits (hence everyone on presentation is from somewhere else) that they have based on their families wants, needs or interest in vacationing.
> 
> Whether they buy a timeshare or not, the vacation will always be there for the reasons they travel. The investment and the commitment are both made to the family, not the timeshare. The reality of the situation is they are committed to spending the money if they choose to travel. Vacation is never free.
> 
> As a whole, families in bad financial situations typically don't travel, especially not to resort areas where the cost is usually always greater.
> 
> 4.Timeshare should never be sold as an  "investment" to be flipped for monetary gain. Have you ever gone on vacation and wondered how much you could make for doing it? Like I said earlier, stay at the same hotel for the next 20 years. Let the owner and staff get to know you and your family so well they know your kids and how well they do at sports. On year 21 with a relationship built to this magnitude, Walk and see if the owner offers you a deed to one of the hotel rooms or has his money out for you to pay again for the same room to rent.
> 
> 5. Do you call your attorney and ask him when, where or how you should go on vacation???  Does he pay your way or offer advice on the best bang for your buck?? Or do you go where you want to go and spend what you want?
> 
> 6. Budgets are always discussed when considering if you should purchase a timeshare or not. Do you ever sit down and calculate how much $$ you have spent in the past and will spend in the future?? That's you budget right there.



1. So unlike a real estate agent with a license you will not disclose your comissions, that is ok, I will make a rough guestemate. Based on a conversion rate of say 1/8 and an average sale of ~$20k. I would estimate that comission is sitting somewhere in the 25-30% range (or ~$5-6K).  If you understand economics, you will understand that this undisclosed selling cost artificially inflates the price of the product (so all of a sudden we go from a $20k unit to something that the developer even acknowledges is only worth 14k)

2. I don't know what this cell phone analogy is, or missed it between all the other stuff you wrote. 

3. I think you are missing one key component. With a timeshare, the individual is committed to spending money even if they are unable to travel, can no longer afford to travel, or chose not to travel. While you are willing to sell them the product, you do not disclose or offer them an avenue to terminate the product.  

And families, even those in low financial situations DO travel. They fly budget airlines, or save for years for their chance to go to places like Orlando. Sometimes they are even offered discounted hotel rooms if they attend a presentation. When in the presentation, the get enamored by what may be instead of what is for them and buy products that they know they can't afford, and that a sales person who truely cared about their customer knew that that person shouldn't buy. Once they get home (usually after the glitz has worn off and the recision period has ended) and they get their first invoice and realize they really can't afford what they are sold and when they call to try and cancel the contract are told to go pound sand. At that point, they end up on TUG begging for help and this community does the best they can to help them understand their options and avoid falling for scams since the resorts, developers and sales people are unwilling to support these people. 

4. Umm, I have had great relationships with Hotel Staff (having on occasion spent up to 2 months on or off in hotels for work reasons). Not only do they offer me extra accomodations, free additional items, have even provided me with free or heavily discounted rooms for being a preferred client. I currently hold high level status with 3 multinational hotel chains and thanks to all the Hotel points I have racked up, I have stayed in rooms that cost upwards of $1500 a night for free. Similarly,  thanks to frequent flyer miles, I have flown Business and FIRST class multiple times across the atlantic in seats that sell commercially for anywhere from 5-15K.  

5. I call an attorney when I sign a complex legal document with significant financial ramifications. Would you as an educated person with a degree encourage your friends or family to do anything less or would you encourage them to spend thousands of dollars without even understanding what they are signing? Out of curiosity, how many pages do you make someone sign when they are buying? How many pages is the contract they are signing? What font and size is the contract they are signing?

6. I don't think you understand what a budget is. you just defined a forcasted spending projection (My own term, since there is a key component missing from your definition). A budget is a much more precise personal financial planning tool helping people Manage their finances instead of letting their finances manage them (usually by using forcasted spending projections).  More specifically, it takes into account INCOME in addition to EXPENSES in order to allow people to manage their cash outflows, understand both inflows and outflows, plan and SAVE. For example, under your definition, someone can look at their spending last month and see that they spent $1,000 and forcast that they are going to spend about the same every month ($12k/year). If that person only makes $900/month, then that spending pattern is not sustainable.


----------



## tante

I see what you are doing now. You are looking for material to improve your sales argument. On second thought keep telling people that buying a timeshare resale is like buying a cell phone on ebay. That is perfect.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Jason I'm 32 its my generation. I sold a couple just today in my same age bracket with smart phones in tow. RETAIL.
> 
> Ken and Rx elaborate please. Comparison is breaking down data. How else can you say it is a good or bad move?? Waiting.



It is my generation too. I am not talking about this generation. I am talking about what is to come with the people who are in their teens and early 20s. The people who will be in financial posiitons for those luxuries in the next 10-20 years. The ones who grew up on Facebook, the internet and who are more and more willing to buy everything from real estate to cars and boats ONLINE.  The ones who can't seem to have phone conversations and instead prefer to text.  The people who grew up on Google, use Reddit and actually look for places like TUG.


----------



## Jason245

tante said:


> I see what you are doing now. You are looking for material to improve your sales argument. On second thought keep telling people that buying a timeshare resale is like buying a cell phone on ebay. That is perfect.



I bought a great cell phone on Ebay. It was brand new, $150 less then the retailer and At&T even gave me $100 for connecting it. Assuming you can afford it, it is probably the best way to buy a phone. Generally, my recommendation is to buy a 1 year old manufacturer refurbished phone. It is usually about 3/4 to half the price of a new one and has most of the same features and abilities.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Again now's your chance to show me in front of your peers. How is it ridiculous???
> 
> All are prime examples given in proper context. Deflate them please.



I think I have already deflated them or is there one I am missing?

I know you think you have a great job and are selling a product you seem to believe in. I think the disconnect is that you may not realize that when you sell the product, for some of your customers, there are downstream consequences, and instead of working with those people, Developers and resorts tell those people to go pound sand because they want their pound of flesh. When that happens the only honest people they can turn to is TUG.  

A car can be sold two years later right back to the person who sold it to them and that person can walk away with cash. 

I don't know your cell phone analogy. 

As for hotel rooms, do people pay different prices for the same product, YES, all the time, from cars, to Flights, to hotel rooms and rental cars. The difference is that these are not perpetual financial obligations with no support for eliminating that obligation when the person is no longer able to fulfill it.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Tante which one? Or is that just a sheeple move to fit in with your peers....
> 
> Ron most families stay in hotels year after year when they vacation. It is a billion dollar industry. Unless you do alternatives like timeshares you pay those prices every year. In the example given to you, That's $5.2mil a year. Take out staff cost upkeep etc. that's a good profit.
> 
> If you break it down as a single family who vacations 2 weeks a year, That would be $1666 a year on a hotel room. With all the crap and lack of amenities and quality  that hotels are known for. In 10 years that's $17000 without inflation and a guarantee you will do it for the next 10, 15 or 20 years with no potential for any resell unless you keep your receipts and post them on ebay. (good luck!)
> 
> Never came to sell anyone anything... believe what you will. Facts are facts.
> 
> You refer people to buy retail when your on a resale website GGz makes a lot of sense. Talk how you'd like, but I guarantee your parents nor your grandparents for the matter raised you to believe renting was better than owning. Age is not always wisdom my friend.



Lets use your math. 

TS purchase price - $20k
annual MF $1500

Air BNB/home away cost/Hotel cost:
$1700/Year. 

TS savings
$200/Year. 

Number of years until you earned back your initial purchase price in savings?


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

1. *6 -15% depending on doen payment, tour source etc. 25% would be crazy money!!!!

2. read bottom half of page 1

3. Was explained pretty well. How do you vacation??

4. Do you pay for those rooms out of pocket or does your company?

5. Closings are handled by deeders. I would say 15-25 pages with all info. That's the purchase proposal, all fees laid out for each portion of the time share (maintenance, taxes, exchange program...) 12 I would assume. this isn't 1980 no one hides small print anymore...

6. I'm speaking solely about vacationing dollars. No one goes on vacation with the light bill... if they do they most likely realize from the jump they can't afford a timeshare. When families vacation they know what their budget allows. Once that travel is established, the budget doesn't change that  much because what can be spent comfortably has been established. Again, what are your vacation habits??


----------



## Timeshare Von

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Also I'm pretty disappointed no one even attempted to answer the fine example I posted earlier in the thread. Ultimately the answer would have been both timeshares and BMW are known for luxury. While BMW has enjoyed praise, timeshare is essentially thrown under the bus. Keep in mind both are indeed LUXURY items.  <<SNIPPED>>



I do not agree with your assessment that timeshares are a luxury item.  Like I said in my post earlier, I bought my first one as a single 20-something. I think I was making around $20k/year at the time.  That was the early 1980's.

Many of the timeshare companies refer to the money a person spends on timeshare ownership as "anyway money" . . . but folks who take a vacation will spend the money anyway.

I find it really ironic that you say timeshares are luxury items when all timeshare sales people try to get people to realize "even they" can afford a timeshare ownership and travel in luxury WITHOUT paying the way high "resort" expenses for lodging.


----------



## e.bram

OP:
Are you seyer can choose lling fixed week fixed unit TSes where the buyer can choose their unit. OR, points selling everyone the ocean-view, summer week?


----------



## Timeshare Von

Jason245 said:


> <<snipped>>
> 
> And families, even those in low financial situations DO travel.



Since 2000, I've been unemployed for about as much time as I've been employed.  Thanks largely to timeshare ownership, I've been able to travel with my family like a rock star!

So yes, even those during financial low points, travel and vacation.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Tante read a few more books then rejoin the conversation 

Jason A for effort. maint on 20k timeshare usually in the 7-900 range. 

Timeshare vacation comes with way more space (something all hotels have and one of the biggest gripes I hear everyday) a full kitchen that can cut food cost tremendously (we don't talk about food cost too often because you have to eat regardless but most families at home don't eat out 3 times a day.) Free activities that can easily cut entertainment cost in half or more (free water parks, mini golf, ziplines, rockwall climbing swimming pools etc..) and conveniences like 24hr security, free transportaion restaurants and groceries on property etc... that will never be included in a hotel cost.

Most families find the most amount of stars for the least amount of money within their vacation budget (usually around $100 a night) to figure out how much money they will spend to be away from their "nice" expensive hotel room. You can actually relax in a resort setting and there are plenty of things to do at the property you are staying on. Making area attractions an option not an absolute.

So push your 1700 to 3-4000 if not more.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> 1. *6 -15% depending on doen payment, tour source etc. 25% would be crazy money!!!!
> 
> 2. read bottom half of page 1
> 
> 3. Was explained pretty well. How do you vacation??
> 
> 4. Do you pay for those rooms out of pocket or does your company?
> 
> 5. Closings are handled by deeders. I would say 15-25 pages with all info. That's the purchase proposal, all fees laid out for each portion of the time share (maintenance, taxes, exchange program...) 12 I would assume. this isn't 1980 no one hides small print anymore...
> 
> 6. I'm speaking solely about vacationing dollars. No one goes on vacation with the light bill... if they do they most likely realize from the jump they can't afford a timeshare. When families vacation they know what their budget allows. Once that travel is established, the budget doesn't change that  much because what can be spent comfortably has been established. Again, what are your vacation habits??



2. I bought it on EBAY from a reputable reviewed source via PAypal. Saved $150 dollars and ATT gave me another $100 credit on my service. They are now giving me $25/month discount on phone service which will cover the full cost of the phone in less than 2 years. 

3. I use hotel points ( I now have a ton thanks to credit card points using tips and tricks I have picked up over the years to maximize rewards). I also picked up two Timeshares (EOY even and ODD) that were on ebay. I got one for $1 and another for $60. Same resort (Hilton), Highest points level for a 1BR. We have begun using the product and love it and can't believe that we are getting a premium experience at such a discounted price all thanks to me doing about 6 months of research on the product and asking a ton of questions about the advantages and disadvantages of resale and the risks I should be on the look out for. . 

I go somewhere every month with my wife and my toddler. 

4. Sometimes I pay, sometimes my company, depending on if I am staying for the weekend. I usually made arrangements with the hotel when I was paying for deeply discounted rates for weekends, and of course having the highest level of status at their chain helped. 

5.  They don't hide small print, the instead create text in all CAPS (See warranty documentation), put paragraphs with key provisions in the middle of the page, etc. I spent years looking over contracts for work, trust me, just because the print isn't too small to read, doesn't mean that it is written in a way that a common person can understand or detect. This is why trained professionals are hired to do the work. 

6. You are dead wrong about people knowing how much money they have to spend. most people do not know, that is why consumer debt is so high and savings is so low. You haven't answerd my question about how deep you probe? Have you ever asked yourself how a family with 3 children earning $50k a year can afford the product you are selling? The purpetual MF and assessments that they can not get out from under? Have you ever helped even one of these people out of the situation that you took part in creating? I encourage you to look through the past posts of people who are in that situation and can't get out 3-10 years after the purchase.


----------



## davidvel

TimeShareProfessional said:


> The reality of the situation is what I said earlier. You care as much about that person as you say the developers do. The full scope is this. If sou spend $2500 a year RENTING vacations for the next 10 years you will spend $25000 correct?
> 
> If you spend $20k on a timeshare, use it for 10 years and then sell it for $100 did you not get a better return on your vacation dollar and have more quality vacations for the same money?? I know most of you have heard the example in same shape, form or fashion yet it's true. Renters don't sell receipts, owners have an opportunity to recoup at least some of the dollars they traveled on. :deadhorse:
> *Mic drop*


Putting aside the MF issue, what timeshare are you describing that you can buy from a developer for only $20K, that would cost $2500/week ($360/night) to rent? [crickets]


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Tante read a few more books then rejoin the conversation
> 
> Jason A for effort. maint on 20k timeshare usually in the 7-900 range.
> 
> Timeshare vacation comes with way more space (something all hotels have and one of the biggest gripes I hear everyday) a full kitchen that can cut food cost tremendously (we don't talk about food cost too often because you have to eat regardless but most families at home don't eat out 3 times a day.) Free activities that can easily cut entertainment cost in half or more (free water parks, mini golf, ziplines, rockwall climbing swimming pools etc..) and conveniences like 24hr security, free transportaion restaurants and groceries on property etc... that will never be included in a hotel cost.
> 
> Most families find the most amount of stars for the least amount of money within their vacation budget (usually around $100 a night) to figure out how much money they will spend to be away from their "nice" expensive hotel room. You can actually relax in a resort setting and there are plenty of things to do at the property you are staying on. Making area attractions an option not an absolute.
> 
> So push your 1700 to 3-4000 if not more.



Now you are pushing it a little. All things being equal, people traveling with kids arn't traveling to stay on property, they are traveling to places like Orlando to see the mouse.

Lets even use $900 Vs 1700, what is the pay back on a $20k buy in for $800/year in savings on lodging. 

As for the whole they will eat on property to save money. Many hotels offer FREE BREAKFAST (heck when I go, because of status, they give me all kinds of free stuff including access to executive longes for snacks etc..). I usually get a fridge and a microwave in the room at no additional charge and housekeeping EVERY day.   As for cooking on site vs Restaurants, I suggest you take a hard look at recent food consumption statistics, last time I looked, Home cooked meals are on the decline while restaurant meals and prepared foods are on the heavy upswing. 

The reality is that the ammenities are nice, but when you are on vacation you are generally disinclined to cook and have to clean dishes etc.  We just came back from a few nights at a timeshare stay and cooked breakfast one of our 3 days there and used the dinner plates and cuttlary to eat some take away food (although they gave us some utincels) simply because it was a temper tantrum kinda day for my son.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

As for cell phones you enter a contract to connect the phone so you are "committed" (not really because it meets a need to communicate) If its month to month you still have to pay for the service or it is cut off. 

The same holds true for vacationing. For families that can afford it, they go every year (because it meets a need; stress relief, quality time, new experience etc) the contract is to ensure they go every year because it is important to said family. 

Other families don't put the same emphasis on vacation (the month to month plan) either because its not important enough (that's a shame there are so many benefits to vacations) or they can't afford to do it regularly (also a shame but we wont go there...) 

Timeshare is still viable in both situations. Families buy a time to met different needs. To ensure they have a nice place every year. To force them to go or have a plan to ensure they can go etc.

Your major problems arise for instance when a family gets a inexpensive 3/2 on property to come see a presentation. For a family that normally couldn't afford a vacation to travel like the Jones's makes them realize what their family is missing out on. If people want something bad enough they will find a way to afford. unfortunately this doesn't always work out. 

A classic case of stay in your lane


----------



## e.bram

OP:
Why buy when you can get minvacs(along with freebies) from the developers to do the tour at low cost? Keep touring for the best deal!


----------



## Jason245

ronparise said:


> Hotels are a one time rental if I find out I cold have gotten the same space at half the price I'll learn from that and do better next time. Timeshares are forever
> If I make a mistake it's tough to recover  Comparing the purchase of a time share, a lifetime of memories, with a hotel, no more than a one night  stand just doesn't work. (Although I do have fond memories of a few one night stands)
> 
> I think you started this telling us that most of what you see here is fluff  and that most of us don't know much about timeshares.  I hope you are learning that we know more than you think. I would bet that some some of us own more timeshares than you have sold in your career. And I am in awe of the experience and knowledge that so many bring to this forum
> 
> I can't figure out your angle here. You had to know you weren't going to make a sale. Or change any minds. That's the downside of all our knowledge and experience; we are pretty set in our ways
> 
> Perhaps if you had come to us with a little humility and respect. And ask for our help. I know I've referred several people to a certain Wyndham salesman and i will again when I think it's the right thing for the person I'm advising. And I've made purchases myself from the same salesman. You see we respect one another.
> Sorry to talk to you like a child but at my age I suspect I could be your grandfather and you sound so damned immature



How many million wyndham points do you own now Ron? I keep waiting for them to name you as a perm member of the Board of Directors, or rename one of their resorts after you.


----------



## davidvel

davidvel said:


> Putting aside the MF issue, what timeshare are you describing that you can buy from a developer for only $20K, that would cost $2500/week ($360/night) to rent? [crickets]


And adding, with MF in the "7-900 range"? 
[More crickets.]


----------



## tante

Okay i gotta admit i was pushing your buttons to see how you would respond. I am not surprised you went straight for the insult. 

But seriously stop comparing cell phones to timeshares. People need too communicate, they don't need vacations. They don't file for bankruptcy due to their cell phone purchase. If people could get a timeshare for under a $1000 with a $350 termination fee, this site would not exist and be full of people asking for help.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> As for cell phones you enter a contract to connect the phone so you are "committed" (not really because it meets a need to communicate) If its month to month you still have to pay for the service or it is cut off.
> 
> The same holds true for vacationing. For families that can afford it, they go every year (because it meets a need; stress relief, quality time, new experience etc) the contract is to ensure they go every year because it is important to said family.
> 
> Other families don't put the same emphasis on vacation (the month to month plan) either because its not important enough (that's a shame there are so many benefits to vacations) or they can't afford to do it regularly (also a shame but we wont go there...)
> 
> Timeshare is still viable in both situations. Families buy a time to met different needs. To ensure they have a nice place every year. To force them to go or have a plan to ensure they can go etc.
> 
> Your major problems arise for instance when a family gets a inexpensive 3/2 on property to come see a presentation. For a family that normally couldn't afford a vacation to travel like the Jones's makes them realize what their family is missing out on. If people want something bad enough they will find a way to afford. unfortunately this doesn't always work out.
> 
> A classic case of stay in your lane



Umm.. My cell phone has no contract mostly because they subsidize me not to have one (ATT). In fact, most of the carriers are pushing away from the contract model because it has so utterly failed given the new competitive landscape. 

All that being said, What advise do you provide to your clients when they find themselves unable to pay for the product you sold them?  IT happens all the time, people come here almost every day to tell their story of how they are in trouble and the developers arn't willing to work with them.  

What initiatives are you or your employer implementing to help these people out? Do you even care? Do you care enough to do anything about it? Did you care enough to tell them to "Stay in their lane" when you were selling or more about how much commission you were going to get once the recision period ended?

The contract has nothing to do with forcing them to go every year. The contract has to do with an obligation to pay for a vacation every year no matter what.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Without digging through all the numbers (too late for that) you can't cut out the property because it is a huge part of the resort experience. If it was the room alone you would have a leg to stand on but it never will be. once a time share is paid off all you have is MF. Your next 10 yrs on your figures would be 9000 compared to another 17000 plus inflation. Throw in 1 or 2 dream trips (Hawaii, Europe, Australia etc.) As an owner its MF plus air. as a renter add 3-5k per trip to your 1700 base. I could go on but you get the point. rental is constant and guaranteed to go up a MF may move but would a 910 MF be worth not paying 3-5K for the same room...


----------



## billymach4

Why buy a timeshare at all. Rent from Redweek, or II, RCI... Even Better. Rent from TUG!


----------



## e.bram

OP:
You are not responding to the questions I ask the weasels when I do a moocher tour? Try  to sharpen your skills here!


----------



## billymach4

Oh let him peddle his wares. We need more supply on the resale market. I need people to give me their used Timeshares


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Jason245 said:


> Umm.. My cell phone has no contract mostly because they subsidize me not to have one (ATT). In fact, most of the carriers are pushing away from the contract model because it has so utterly failed given the new competitive landscape.
> 
> All that being said, What advise do you provide to your clients when they find themselves unable to pay for the product you sold them?  IT happens all the time, people come here almost every day to tell their story of how they are in trouble and the developers arn't willing to work with them.
> 
> What initiatives are you or your employer implementing to help these people out? Do you even care? Do you care enough to do anything about it? Did you care enough to tell them to "Stay in their lane" when you were selling or more about how much commission you were going to get once the recision period ended?
> 
> The contract has nothing to do with forcing them to go every year. The contract has to do with an obligation to pay for a vacation every year no matter what.



You're grasping at straws now. If I don't pay my car note does the dealership baby me along the road to financial security or do they tow my car???? Get real. :hysterical:


----------



## e.bram

OP:
Time for you to call the TO man(closer)in to post, like you  do in a tour!


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Without digging through all the numbers (too late for that) you can't cut out the property because it is a huge part of the resort experience. If it was the room alone you would have a leg to stand on but it never will be. once a time share is paid off all you have is MF. Your next 10 yrs on your figures would be 9000 compared to another 17000 plus inflation. Throw in 1 or 2 dream trips (Hawaii, Europe, Australia etc.) As an owner its MF plus air. as a renter add 3-5k per trip to your 1700 base. I could go on but you get the point. rental is constant and guaranteed to go up a MF may move but would a 910 MF be worth not paying 3-5K for the same room...



I have rented amazing apartments in top European cities (that don't have timeshares) for under $2k/week so I would like some support for where your numbers are comming from. I am talking about Paris, Rome, London.


----------



## davidvel

TimeShareProfessional said:


> I could go on but you get the point. rental is constant and guaranteed to go up a MF may move but would a 910 MF be worth not paying 3-5K for the same room...


900MF for a $5,000.00/week unit? (Your claim was outrageous enough at $3,500.) An example of such a mythical place?
[Crickets, mike drop, etc.]


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

If you have no problem repeating timeshare tours over and over again to take vacations that you otherwise couldn't afford to go on, taking time out of said vacations because you have to tour and drag your significant other (who is most likely embarrassed and/or tired of going on them) enjoy. 

Vacation probably shouldn't be your main focus at this point though. I would look more along the lines of career advancement seminars or classes for that same time to achieve the financial stability required for that vacation lifestyle.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> You're grasping at straws now. If I don't pay my car note does the dealership baby me along the road to financial security or do they tow my car???? Get real. :hysterical:



Car note? I buy cars for Cash. If I decide I no longer want it I (at my option) sell it back to the dealer or another private party For some reason My Honda is worth about half of what I bought it for 10 years ago..go figure. 

What recourse do you give to people who buy the product you sold (maybe even for CASH) and can no longer afford the purpetual financial obligation? 

Lets assume that I did finance a car for 100% financing, and after 2 years I owed 80% and I realized I couldn't afford it any longer and brought it to the dealer who offered me 70% for the car leaving me liable for 10% (this is a common practice).  I would then pay the 10%

What is offered to the customer of a TS they bought from you? time and time again, the developer is not willing to take it back. This is the story that we hear on TUG every day. What do you have to say to these people? What does your employer have to say? What programs do you have in place to address this issue?

Or is your answer: "POUND SAND, IT AINT MY PROBLEM YOU MADE A BAD FINANCIAL CHOICE"

A car always has some value even to the person that sold it to the customer initiatlly 2,3,5,10 years after the fact. For some Reason, Developers are telling their customers that the Timeshare has NO value because if it did, they would be willing to take the property back or have a program in place to Buy them back. The only programs in place are ROFR and of the developers that allow deedbacks, there is usually a CHARGE associated with it. Yes you read me right, developers taking back fully paid for deeds with MF up to date for a Charge (meaning that it is less than worthless in the eyes of the developer).


----------



## persia

Except you've paid $20K for the timeshare and another $20-30K in Maintenance fees! Let's get this straight you don't get to vacation free with a timeshare purchase....

In the end it's the law of supply and demand, if there are more timeshares for sale than buyers then it's a buyers market.

I've owned Wyndham and currently own Worldmark South Pacific. The Wyndham were mostly free and I paid about 20% of developer for WSP. I get treated exactly the same as any other owner,





TimeShareProfessional said:


> And finally, if resale is such a great value and you all seem to be against the weasel developers, why not pay more for the resale? Why not help the very people you attempt to "defend" with your TUG jobs (sorry too good to pass up moderators) by simply saying something along the lines of:
> 
> "You know what, that awful company over charged you for that timeshare. I feel your pain. Wow! You paid $20k for that timeshare yet your listing it for $100. Rather than rip you off, why don't I pay you $6k" Thats 1/3 the retail price. Seems pretty fair for both sides.
> 
> The reality of the situation is what I said earlier. You care as much about that person as you say the developers do. The full scope is this. If sou spend $2500 a year RENTING vacations for the next 10 years you will spend $25000 correct?
> 
> If you spend $20k on a timeshare, use it for 10 years and then sell it for $100 did you not get a better return on your vacation dollar and have more quality vacations for the same money?? I know most of you have heard the example in same shape, form or fashion yet it's true. Renters don't sell receipts, owners have an opportunity to recoup at least some of the dollars they traveled on. :deadhorse:
> 
> *Mic drop*


----------



## billymach4

persia said:


> Except you've paid $20K for the timeshare and another $20-30K in Maintenance fees! Let's get this straight you don't get to vacation free with a timeshare purchase....
> 
> In the end it's the law of supply and demand, if there are more timeshares for sale than buyers then it's a buyers market.
> 
> I've owned Wyndham and currently own Worldmark South Pacific. The Wyndham were mostly free and I paid about 20% of developer for WSP. I get treated exactly the same as any other owner,



like box check


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> If you have no problem repeating timeshare tours over and over again to take vacations that you otherwise couldn't afford to go on, taking time out of said vacations because you have to tour and drag your significant other (who is most likely embarrassed and/or tired of going on them) enjoy.
> 
> Vacation probably shouldn't be your main focus at this point though. I would look more along the lines of career advancement seminars or classes for that same time to achieve the financial stability required for that vacation lifestyle.



If someone offered you $150 an hour to sit in a chair for 3 hours with no other obligation or requirement other than following the law and listening to someone talk at you would you?

There are not that many who make that much per hour, so it is a pretty good deal for some.


----------



## Jason245

What would you tell the following person if they were your customer?
How would you or your company help them?

This is the actual true story we deal with every day on TUG.  

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226756


----------



## tante

Has anyone everyone done a comparison of MF increases compared to hotel rate increases or even point redemption increases?


----------



## Jason245

tante said:


> Has anyone everyone done a comparison of MF increases compared to hotel rate increases or even point redemption increases?



Interestingly enough, from 2008 to 2013 hotel rates actually remained steady or declined. I have yet to hear of any MF decreasing. As for point redemption increases, there were a number of significant ones with the major chains last year, that being said, before last year they had been steady for a number (I mean 5+ years)

I have mostly detemined this from my own personal experiences (and it was primarily driven by lower occupancies due to the poor economy). Rates are back on the uptick.


----------



## tante

@Jason245

This is interesting

NYC average hotel occupancy in 2013: 88.3%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2012: 87.4%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2011: 85.2%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2010: 85.5%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2009: 81.5%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2008: 85.3%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2007: 86.1%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2006: 85.6%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2005: 86.1%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2004: 82.4%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2003: 76.3%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2002: 75.6%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2001: 73.4%
NYC average hotel occupancy in 2000: 84.6%


----------



## davidvel

Jason245 said:


> Interestingly enough, from 2008 to 2013 hotel rates actually remained steady or declined. I have yet to hear of any MF decreasing. As for point redemption increases, there were a number of significant ones with the major chains last year, that being said, before last year they had been steady for a number (I mean 5+ years)
> 
> I have mostly detemined this from my own personal experiences (and it was primarily driven by lower occupancies due to the poor economy). Rates are back on the uptick.


I agree but its still tough to track the decreases. Nicer chains like Marriott offer all sorts of incentives ($50/night resort credits, free parking, meals etc.) in lieu of lowering room rates. This makes it appear that they are not "discounting" when the effective total cost per night is far lower for the renter.


----------



## Jason245

tante said:


> @Jason245
> 
> This is interesting
> 
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2013: 88.3%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2012: 87.4%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2011: 85.2%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2010: 85.5%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2009: 81.5%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2008: 85.3%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2007: 86.1%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2006: 85.6%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2005: 86.1%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2004: 82.4%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2003: 76.3%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2002: 75.6%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2001: 73.4%
> NYC average hotel occupancy in 2000: 84.6%



NYC is a bubble onto its self, even so, looking at the trend, occupancy declined starting after 2007 and took until 2012 to recover. Many other parts of the country only really started to feel that recovery closer to 2013 from the rates I have seen.


----------



## tschwa2

During bad times, it seems like hotels stay flat but TS actually have a higher than normal increase because more owners are likely to default and the remaining owners have to pick up the slack without any extra usage.  And since it is more likely to be the owners of lesser demand periods, those times can not be often be rented at a level to cover the delinquent fees (plus any additional commission and HK fees due to the single night and partial week rental usage charged by the developer or HOA.) Sometimes the developer actually rents out units on a nightly basis that end up being less than what owners would have paid for that time especially in the off season.


----------



## rapmarks

most of OP's arguments center on the upside of owning a timeshare instead of renting hotel rooms or higher priced condos. He has completely veered away from the buying resale vs. buying from a developer argument.  He never responds to the comments about not being able to get the developer to take your timeshare back when your circumstances change.


----------



## Miss Marty

Deleted...


----------



## e.bram

OP:
Anytime you(as a real estate professional) sell a TS for 20K that is worth less than $00.01(on the open market) it is FRAUD(by legal definition). End of story!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bastroum

e.bram said:


> OP:
> Anytime you(as a real estate professional) sell a TS for 20K that is worth less than $00.01(on the open market) it is FRAUD(by legal definition). End of story!!!!!!!!!



I agree, however, the courts have not ruled in that direction. In the cases I've read about they rule routinely in favor of developers pricing not being fraud.


----------



## e.bram

What is needed is a jury trial,


----------



## ronparise

e.bram said:


> OP:
> Anytime you(as a real estate professional) sell a TS for 20K that is worth less than $00.01(on the open market) it is FRAUD(by legal definition). End of story!!!!!!!!!



this is from the Realtor code of ethics:

REALTORS® shall avoid exaggeration,
misrepresentation, or concealment of
pertinent facts relating to the property or
the transaction. 

My guess is that our salesman is not a realtor


----------



## taterhed




----------



## sgtdesi

I honestly wouldn't go on a tour. But why is it that many resorts set it up so you have to get your parking pass through the people who sign you up for "updates?" Then when you say no, no, and no again, then won't relent. So after a 10 hour drive, to get the parking pass, I say ok. And you are upset that I don't want to buy another timeshare? I never did want to buy another timeshare! I just want to park the damn car!

If I sought out the presentation for the money, then I could see why I would be a moocher. But it is ALWAYS the other way around.


----------



## silentg

taterhed said:


>



Is this for sale? :rofl:LOL


----------



## LannyPC

rapmarks said:


> He has completely veered away from the buying resale vs. buying from a developer argument....




Or why not rent from existing owners when, in many cases, one can rent from an owner for less than the owner is paying in MFs?


----------



## rapmarks

LannyPC said:


> Or why not rent from existing owners when, in many cases, one can rent from an owner for less than the owner is paying in MFs?


yes, these are the points, we almost all own timeshares here, we like timesharing, he doesn't need to prove that.  I bought mine resale, Ihave done 150 trades, if I add my total expenditures, including all closing costs, i spent $1385 purchasing, divided by 150 weeks means I spent less than ten dollars per week on acquisition of timeshares.   I no longer own any, but have 7 or 8 weeks in the spacebank.   I have been to great places, I have had great times,   i will rent from now on when I use up my remaining weeks.


----------



## ace2000

I have never had an issue saying no in a firm manner.  If they persist then I just tell them I don't have time.


----------



## ace2000

e.bram said:


> OP:
> Anytime you(as a real estate professional) sell a TS for 20K that is worth less than $00.01(on the open market) it is FRAUD(by legal definition). End of story!!!!!!!!!


I'd love to see the OPs answer to this.   But won't be holding my breath.  This and the lies and exaggerations that occur during the sales process is the real answer to the questions the OP asked.


----------



## colatown

e.bram said:


> What is needed is a jury trial,


I vote death penalty for the OP.


----------



## rickandcindy23

ronparise said:


> this is from the Realtor code of ethics:
> 
> REALTORS® shall avoid exaggeration,
> misrepresentation, or concealment of
> pertinent facts relating to the property or
> the transaction.
> 
> My guess is that our salesman is not a realtor



We both know there is a difference between a licensed salesperson or broker from a Realtor.  A Realtor is to abide by the Realtor code of ethics, whereas a broker has to abide by the laws.  Two different things.


----------



## Beefnot

e.bram said:


> OP:
> Anytime you(as a real estate professional) sell a TS for 20K that is worth less than $00.01(on the open market) it is FRAUD(by legal definition). End of story!!!!!!!!!



At what price differential between retail and resale does it cease being fraud?


----------



## silentg

*This has gone on too long!*

:deadhorse::deadhorse:





Beefnot said:


> At what price differential between retail and resale does it cease being fraud?


----------



## e.bram

The judge and/or jury.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Who ever said you don't have to go on vacation obviously doesn't travel... I need a break fairly often. The irony is that they are on a site that bargain hunts a travel product.

Obviously to avoid the financial burden of a timeshare just pay cash #Jason245

To the rest of this thread, no one finds it funny that most of you have a list of the timeshares you own displayed proudly as badges yet complain about maintenance fees?? You complain about the price yet you want to live the lifestyle... And that's what it is, a lifestyle. 

Most families who buy timeshares have a vacation commitment, know the value and importance of it and spend $3-6k doing it (if not more) Why would you want to "act as if" when you will also complain about the cost of food. How expensive the area attractions are etc... The situation seems to me like your trying to find the versace suit at goodwill then walk into cartier to complain about the prices.

Do some people try to live beyond their means? Sure they do. Companies are in business to make money. As a business owner if you turn business away, you are not a business owner for long. The families who find themselves caught in this situation bring it upon themselves. I personally hate that reps put them in that situation but those families willingly sign the paper work confirming they understand what they are buying, the terms and fees associated and that they can indeed afford to do it. 

The resort takes their word offering pre approved financing that they will honor their contract, then catches all the backlash because consumers realize they were in over their heads and really couldn't afford it.

Before the good sheeple of TUG puke up the same lame sob stories of the glitz, glamour and highlights being to great of a temptation to pass up, keep in mind that these are adults on vacation who made their own choice to take the tour. No one put a gun in their side and walked them to the tour desk. What do you expect to see at a resort...


----------



## frank808

What happened to developer vs resale thread.  This has turned into something else entirely.  OP you still have not answered where you can buy a $25000 or $30000 timeshare with $900 mf. 
In your arguments you state cars and such. In a few years why wont most developers take back a contract for free or to take it back they want more money from them?  Must be worth next to nothing if the person that sold it to you for wants more money from you to take it back.
Would you knowingly pay hundreds of thousands more the exact same home next to yours? The only one difference being home purchased from developer and the home next door is resale.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...


----------



## slip

I find it really funny that you think you are winning and that you think you
Know what your talking about.


----------



## LisaH

I really think OP believes every word he wrote. I have not seen someone as delusional as the OP for a long time here...


----------



## Ken555

Mods: have you discovered which developer this joker is from based on IP yet? 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## TJC

TimeShareProfessional said:


> yet complain about maintenance fees??



I enjoy paying the maintenance fees...they maintain my resorts. What I don't pay is a salesman's commission. Though I must say, he is probably the most disrespectful I've seen


----------



## silentg

*How do we answer a valid point? If you don't have one?*



TimeShareProfessional said:


> You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...


Name one of your valid points, all I have read are insults calling us Timeshare Pukes!


----------



## pedro47

To the OP, why do some timeshare sales people push timeshare sales to senior citizen over 75 years old ?


----------



## artringwald

TimeShareProfessional said:


> You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...



If I was a very wealthy person, I'd love to sign your contract because:
1) I enjoy staying at the better timeshare resorts.
2) It's so easy to join, I just sign and I'm done. I don't have to do any research.
3) I have enough money to pay cash, no complicated loan application to complete.
4) I can start booking vacations shortly after I join.
5) I get all the perks from buying retail.
6) If a buy into a point based system, I can stay any number of days at any resort in the system, and find out immediately if it is available.
7) If I get too sick or too old to travel, I can give it away, because I'm too rich to care about the annual fees.
8) I can pass it onto my kids, and they'll continue to get all the developer perks. My kids will gladly accept ownership because they'll inherit enough of my wealth, they won't mind the annual fees, and will gladly spend money to travel to a variety of destinations.

If all your successful closings were with very wealthy clients, no one in TUG should be able to argue with you.

However, since I have to be somewhat frugal with my vacation budget, I'd rather spend the time to do enough research to find the best value. Thanks in good part to TUG, I know that retail prices are 10-100 times higher than resale. TUG has helped educate me on how to avoid shady sellers, and expensive closing companies. I've explained too my children that they probably don't want to accept ownership of the timeshares after we've gone.

TUG has also helped entertain me with absurd conversations like the ones this thread started.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Who ever said you don't have to go on vacation obviously doesn't travel... I need a break fairly often. The irony is that they are on a site that bargain hunts a travel product.
> 
> Obviously to avoid the financial burden of a timeshare just pay cash #Jason245
> 
> To the rest of this thread, no one finds it funny that most of you have a list of the timeshares you own displayed proudly as badges yet complain about maintenance fees?? You complain about the price yet you want to live the lifestyle... And that's what it is, a lifestyle.
> 
> Most families who buy timeshares have a vacation commitment, know the value and importance of it and spend $3-6k doing it (if not more) Why would you want to "act as if" when you will also complain about the cost of food. How expensive the area attractions are etc... The situation seems to me like your trying to find the versace suit at goodwill then walk into cartier to complain about the prices.
> 
> Do some people try to live beyond their means? Sure they do. Companies are in business to make money. As a business owner if you turn business away, you are not a business owner for long. The families who find themselves caught in this situation bring it upon themselves. I personally hate that reps put them in that situation but those families willingly sign the paper work confirming they understand what they are buying, the terms and fees associated and that they can indeed afford to do it.
> 
> The resort takes their word offering pre approved financing that they will honor their contract, then catches all the backlash because consumers realize they were in over their heads and really couldn't afford it.
> 
> Before the good sheeple of TUG puke up the same lame sob stories of the glitz, glamour and highlights being to great of a temptation to pass up, keep in mind that these are adults on vacation who made their own choice to take the tour. No one put a gun in their side and walked them to the tour desk. What do you expect to see at a resort...



Have you read anything I have written? Do you have any concept at all about how the TS product is very different then most any normal product that people can buy (in that there is NO exit strategy and ZERO support to help you exit the perpetual financial burden of a TS product even after it is paid for). 

A true salesman is someone who sells the customer a product that meets their needs in such a way that the customer comes back time and time again. I used to work in retail sales and had customers follow me when I changed stores, not because I was anything special, but because I was honest, didn't oversell and gave the consumer the good and the bad of the products they could buy. These people trusted me and spent tens of thousands of dollars with me, and whenever they had a problem, even 2-3 years later, I was there for them. Why, because I believe that a customer relationship is the most valuable part of business. 

Tug does this because you and those who perform your role at countless resorts do not. Resort sales people  Drug their customers (see what happened in mexico), They lie, cheat, and steal. TUG cleans up the mess, EDUCATES the consumer providing them with the information and options for them to make an informed decision. 

TUG is not about getting discounted vacation products, TUG is primarily about helping people NOT GET SCAMMED by people who claim to try and help people get rid of their timeshares for upfront fees, taking the money and running, all because a Sales person didn't do their job as a true salesperson and instead just Sold a product for their own benefit without any care or consideration to the customer. 

You can mock the people of this board all you want, but I tell you now, that all this rationalization by stating that these are adults and they should know better and I didn't put a gun to their head is just that, rationalization. You are not a true salesman. When I walk into Cartier, a BMW or Lexus Dealership, or a Tiffanies, they do not engage in a "Hard Sell" strategy involving a wide variety of psychological selling strategies. When I go into Nordstrom, they don't do it either. Why, because they are selling a product that is more then just image, they are selling something that they and their companies stand behind 110%.  They don't say "Well, you shouldn't have bought it", their first instinct is to say, "How can we make it work for you, or if not, how can we resolve this issue to everyone's satisfaction".  

Since I seem to be talking to a wall, I can only hope that no members of your family every purchase a product where the salesperson says "Well you shouldn't have signed and no one had a gun to your head", because KARMA is a Bitch and it has a bad tendency to come back around. 

Personally, I feel sorry for you. For whatever reason, you have taken your degree from a field designed to Create and Innovate, and flushed it down the toilet in favor of a career that creates nothing and requires no degree. While there are sales people in the field who are honest, provide full disclosure, and try to match their customers to the right product for them (or steer them away from the TS product if it isn't for them) you are engaging in an activity that in some cases leaves your customers worse off then when they sat down at the desk in front of you and you are either willfully ignorant or down right malicious about it while rationalizing away the issue like a concentration camp guard stating "I am only following orders" (Oh Yes, I am going there, but only because I think you need to fully understand what rationalization is and you don't seem to understand things without analogies).


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...



I have answered every position and question you have asked, rebutted every statement, and after doing so, you still have yet to honestly answer mine except to BLAME the buyer for letting themselves be sold a product that really wasn't for them in the first place. 

A buyer who is not always well educated, does not always have sound legal knowledge, and does not have the ability to absorb the financial commitment. 

If your wife or daughter went to a bar for a ladies night, someone slipped something into one of her "free" drinks and proceeded to sexually assault her, would it be her fault because she showed up and no one forced her to drink the beverage?


----------



## billymach4

Listen people...The guy is annoyed because some of his customers have rescinded after finding TUG. He lost a few $$ of commission. 

Let this guy fade away. He fills a void in the Timeshare ecosystem. If he is not going to sell timeshares then someone else will gladly sell TS's.

We all know he is full of bunk. My guess is he is a Wyndham, or Wastegate peddler.

Let's play... Guess the Timeshare salesman's system or resort he is selling.

Could he be a Mexican Timeshare peddler?


----------



## e.bram

The OP is pissed at TUG because one(or more) of of his victims found TUG and rescinded. To him(her) that is lot of fluff.
ps. That is how he probably found about TUG. and he is ranting in revenge.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER

Who is to even say that "Time Share Professional" is actually a sales person in the TS industry as opposed to somebody just here to rile up the crowd.

In any event, in response to some of the other posts, we are owners in what I would consider to be one of the more reputable, higher end, points programs.  We had taken a tour and decided to purchase the product.  Not because of high pressure sales tactics or false promises, but rather the product was appropriate for us. In fact the salesperson couldn't have been nicer and was informative (except, for one thing as you will see).

Once signing the paperwork there was some buyer's remorse given the cost of the product.  That is when we came across TUG and quickly learned that the same item was for sale on the resale market for nearly 2/3 less than the developer's price.  Of course, we rescinded and took the time to research the situation and pros/cons of buying resale.  We ultimately did purchase resale at the lower cost and are satisfied owners.

Now the question is should the salesperson have said "don't buy it from us, go on the resale market and buy it for 2/3 less money"  -- Respectfully, in response to the other posts on this thread, my answer is no. It is not the salesperson's place to do so.  Doing due diligence before a purchase is the way to go; otherwise it becomes buyer beware.


----------



## Icc5

*Where is the Government*

They went after banks and collected billions of dollars because of fraud and lies for mortgages that never should have been written.  Why do they sit on their hands when timeshare scum salesmen do the same?


----------



## davidvel

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Who is to even say that "Time Share Professional" is actually a sales person in the TS industry as opposed to somebody just here to rile up the crowd.


He/she is not a (pure) troll, in my opinion. What convinces me is that a PURE troll will answer with hyperbolic responses to every question, but this *"Professional"* (with a company that can't afford "moochers" and must check IDs and marriage licenses at the door), won't respond to the pointed questions that a sales-****** would avoid, but goes off topic and creates new tangents. (A bit like a "developer update" no?) But he/she responds with:


TimeShareProfessional said:


> You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...


Such unanswered questions include...


davidvel said:


> Putting aside the MF issue, what timeshare are you describing that you can buy from a developer for only $20K, that would cost $2500/week ($360/night) to rent? [crickets]


and 


davidvel said:


> 900MF for a $5,000.00/week unit? (Your claim was outrageous enough at $3,500.) An example of such a mythical place?
> [Crickets, mike drop, etc.]


and 


frank808 said:


> What happened to developer vs resale thread.  This has turned into something else entirely.  OP you still have not answered where you can buy a $25000 or $30000 timeshare with $900 mf.


So, this is all proof that he/she is not a TROLL, but really someone selling timeshares. First day of sales school is to ignore/deny/avoid/ignore the questions that defeat the sales pitch. 

He/She surely is a TS salesperson.


----------



## bastroum

This thread has taken several turns. As I read it the OP is trying to defend something using illogical examples. He uses many strange analogies. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone....but I'm going to tell this story for anyone's reaction. This past week I brought a diamond ring to a reputable jeweler for an appraisal. This ring was purchased by my mother years ago. She has since passed away and obviously has no use for the ring. Here's the appraisal: Retail Value $27,500. I believe my mother paid around $12,000 thirty years ago. The jeweler would purchase the ring from me for $4,000 (and put it in his case for $12,000.) In my opinion the ring is worth $4,000. I don't think it would be fraud if a retail jewelry store sold the ring for $27,500, the retail appraised value. What do you think? Sounds a lot like buying a timeshare from a developer!

The reason TUG is so important, is to educate and inform people, so they realize there are more than one distribution channel to purchase timeshares.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

davidvel I didnt answer you because first and foremost your a tug member you dont buy retail so I could have said the starbucks resort on the dark side of the moon and 5 or 6 of you would have replied with some canned high road tug answer.

Next you guys twist everything I say to how you want to interpret it so an otherwise articulate debate (on one side at least) is misconstrued.

Questions such as why don't you resale buyers pay more to the folks that got "scammed" buying retail since you show so much sympathy and compasion for them.

Jason you simply avoid what you can't overcome and your failed attempt at analogies is laughable. Comparing nazi death camps where people were put to death because of who they were and selling a product that promotes stress relief (#1 killer in the states) thus saving lives and building relationships is probably one of the more ignorant things I've seen in this thread. Kudos for trying to be the white knight doe.


----------



## Tia

thumbs up +1



Icc5 said:


> They went after banks and collected billions of dollars because of fraud and lies for mortgages that never should have been written.  Why do they sit on their hands when timeshare scum salesmen do the same?


----------



## ace2000

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Next you guys twist everything I say to how you want to interpret it so an otherwise articulate debate (on one side at least) is misconstrued.



Two points...

1.  You haven't addressed how you feel about selling a product that is worth less than 10% of what was paid for it the previous day (generally).  

2.  And then you haven't addressed the lies and misrepresentations that a salesman makes to sell that product.  Have you replied to those points? (I apologize if I missed it).

Next, can you give us a brief summary of what it is you are trying to say?  Your points have been very hard to follow because you have gone off on so many random tangents.  Please address my two issues above, and then I think I'd probably take you a little more seriously.  So far, you have said a lot with very little substance.


----------



## Beaglemom3

TimeShareProfessional said:


> You guys have a lot of ground to make up before I field anymore questions. no one has answered a single valid point I have made. The rebuttal is either a defense mechanism sarcastic remark or answered with another question...





Failure To State: 
If you make enough attacks and ask enough questions, you may never have to actually define your own position on the topic.

-


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> davidvel I didnt answer you because first and foremost your a tug member you dont buy retail so I could have said the starbucks resort on the dark side of the moon and 5 or 6 of you would have replied with some canned high road tug answer.
> 
> Next you guys twist everything I say to how you want to interpret it so an otherwise articulate debate (on one side at least) is misconstrued.
> 
> Questions such as why don't you resale buyers pay more to the folks that got "scammed" buying retail since you show so much sympathy and compasion for them.
> 
> Jason you simply avoid what you can't overcome and your failed attempt at analogies is laughable. Comparing nazi death camps where people were put to death because of who they were and selling a product that promotes stress relief (#1 killer in the states) thus saving lives and building relationships is probably one of the more ignorant things I've seen in this thread. Kudos for trying to be the white knight doe.



According to the CDC HEART DESEASE and not stress is the leading cause of death. Given your extensive knowledge on the subject, I am sure you can read the causes of this. But in case you can't, I will CITE my source.

http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

I am trying to teach you what rationalization is. You still haven't answered my questions and instead have DEFLECTED because you don't seem to have an answer. Time and again. 

I will make it a couple of very simple for you a YES or NO Question that even a two year old can answer. 

Do you believe it is appropriate for a salesperson to sell a product designed for those with sound financial standing to those who do not have that financial standing?

Do you believe that companies that decide to engage in selling that product have any responsibility for the outcome?

Do you, as the seller of that product, believe that you have any responsibility to the customer when selling them a product outside of telling them all the benefits of that vacation ownership?

Given your tone and answers and deflections, I think I already know the answers.  

Given that you have a degree, given the current liberal arts type of learning you were probably required to take some type of humanities class on Ethics.  I suggest you brush up on Immanuel Kant and "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law".

There are people who rationalize away their participation in hurting society every day. The employees of Madoff did it for 30 years. The Admissions employees at for profit higher education institutes, The "home Flippers" who don't really renovate according to code, The used car sales man who turns back the speedometer, the doctor who overprescribes pain medication for personal gain, the pharmacist who fills that prescription without any followup action because there is a doctors prescription, the Americans during WW2 who Intered in Concentration camps JAPANESE AMERICAN CITIZENS, because of who their parents were in order to "protect society from them and them from society". 

Noone wakes up in the morning and says "Geez, I am going to do my part to hurt others today". It just starts with one move over the line, and then another small step, and another. Ultimatly you are the one who must live with the decisions you make in this life, and if the only way you can put a roof over your head and food on the plate for you and your family is to use your abilities to take advantage of others, then that is your choice.  I doubt that anyone here would give you a high five for it and If you think you are winning a debate in which you have chosen to answer no questions and instead deflect answers using circular logic you are only deluding yourself.

Here are some examples of your logic in action:

We gave those Indians a few pelts for that land so it is ours now. We didn't make them take the pelts.

 those Incan's signed a complex and formal contract in Spanish (even though it isn't even there language), therefore south America is now under the control of the Spanish empire and they are all our subjects. 

No one made those homeowner take up adjustable rate mortgages,, it isn't our fault that they couldn't afford the adjustment. 

and more recently (and my new favorite):

Women should learn to negotiate better for their pay, it isn't my fault they are willing to work for less. 


Personally, I have the means and ability to make a LOT of money legally bilking people, but to use the defense "it isn't illegal go F yourself" is all well and good until I have to look my son in the eye and explain to him how daddy makes his money.


----------



## Transit

TimeShareProfessional

 You should realize  that there are many owners here that have purchased from developers. Many of them multi-week owners and did so for good reason . Some want a particular view,week(s) or location. You are only addressing a cross section of owners here. Buying developer has been discussed many times here and many of the owners who do buy developer here present a much stronger reasoning than you have. I noticed that many of them haven't bothered to respond to this thread. 

  There have been other developer representatives that discussed these issues on this forum and have provided much more transparency than you have. You may find some support here if your responses weren't so vague. By being so anonymous and not even stating what timeshare system you sell makes me believe you sell for one of the developers that cause the negativity that surrounds timesharing............
Or maybe just a troll.


----------



## Jason245

For any interested, It is fascinating to compare the sales strategies used by For Profit higher education used in Timeshare sales presentations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/for-profit-college-recruiters-documents_n_820337.html


----------



## Iggyearl

*Lobbies......*



Icc5 said:


> They went after banks and collected billions of dollars because of fraud and lies for mortgages that never should have been written.  Why do they sit on their hands when timeshare scum salesmen do the same?



Earlier, this year, the President was seen golfing with Derek Jeter - in LasVegas.  Some probably did not notice the other 2 gentlemen in the foursome.  They were the publisher of the local Las Vegas newspaper - and a man named Steve Cloobeck.  Diamond Resorts members would recognize that name.  He is a BIG political contributor.

The timeshare industry is a Big industry.  For the life of me, I can only remember an expose' on Royal Holiday Vacation Club some years ago.  No one from the press has ever gone into a timeshare meeting with a hidden camera and done a thorough documentary.  It would be nice if it happened to the OP.  "Selling dreams - but only to those who can afford them."


----------



## molonlabe

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Yes I sell timeshare. Yes I've done it for years. Yes it works. (Let's get that out of the way first)
> 
> So, the majority of this forum that I've seen (granted I haven't gone over it with a fine toothed comb) is mainly fluff. The views and ideas of timeshare here are soooooo far from accurate (as a whole) it makes me wonder where the bulk of this info actually comes from.
> 
> Now, to make the playing field as level as possible, let me lay a quick foundation.
> 
> 1. Timeshare is not for everyone!!!!! (RESORTS are in high demand, high traffic areas thus the price tag associated)
> 
> 2. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR (pardon the caps but we all know this holds true for any product you purchase)
> 
> 3. Like any business not all companies are going to be reputable. (I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't go to ebay and buy a cheap Chinese knock off just to say I had an Iphone.)
> 
> 4. As far as the whole resale market is concerned, good luck. For those of you who have had success with it, congrats! Just know you are the minority. (Also I love the fact that the community here drags timeshare through the mud, yet most people here are either actively traveling or trying to travel this way!)
> 
> I would love to hear the communities feedback on why it is a "scam" (I'm so excited to argue with tours who are not actually tours!!! Selling 101 Right or Rich?) So let's have some fun with this.



I know I'm coming to the discussion a bit late, but...

I just recently bought a Bluegreen 10K points package on ebay for $15, yes, $15.  It's not that amazing or unusual, especially to the regulars here.  Here's the part that blows my mind - BG wanted over $13,000 for a similar points package, so tell me how spending $13K would be better for me that getting it for free, basically?  A 'perk' that buying from BG would give me is 'bonus' time, meaning I could buy extra nights at whatever resort for $59 or $69.  ???  I could spend full price on a lot of these extra nights and never come close to $13K!

Like others have said, many are happy with having bought directly from the developers, and that's fine.  There's no way I would ever spend $13K on something that is worth nothing (or $15 in my case) on ebay.  (I'm CFO for a non-profit and have an MBA, so I know a few things about finances).

As far as I can tell, BG cares about owners paying their MF's, not much else.  I have the same login as the regular owners, same access to the reservation system, etc.


----------



## rapmarks

molonlabe,  he thinks you should have paid the seller more, to be fair, just because the developer ripped him off, doesn't mean you have to too.


----------



## pchung6

I purchased my first timeshare from developer for a lot of money just a while ago.  After 6 months, i found out this site and too late, I could not rescind.

Then I found out my developer purchase was only EOY at off-season that salesman fluffed me it was good season (labor day weekend).  He changed the pitch to EOY after I said it costs too much.  I remember clearly he said it is still annual, one year home resort, one year Interval Getaway.  How would I know what does that Interval Getaway mean when I was just 60 minutes into presentation.

Early this year, I bought my second timeshare here from another Tugger, at exactly the same resort and the exactly same product, but it is EY, for $600.

Last month I travelled to Ko Olina.  Other tuggers are now helping me how to buy a cheap resale for $2-3k with highest trading power from their experience to trade.

I think this site is very very useful and has helped me a lot.


----------



## molonlabe

right, that's the impression I was getting.  almost as if it's our *moral* duty to pay full price...  

I remember the BG presentation - if I didn't know any better, I'd have gobbled it all up.  In fact, when I said 'no way' to the $13K package, they said 'well, you can start with a smaller 4,000 points package for around $6 grand!!  4000 points might get me 2-3 nights somewhere, lol.  smart shoppers buy resale.



rapmarks said:


> molonlabe,  he thinks you should have paid the seller more, to be fair, just because the developer ripped him off, doesn't mean you have to too.


----------



## Beefnot

Jason245 said:


> There are people who rationalize away their participation in hurting society every day. The employees of Madoff did it for 30 years. The Admissions employees at for profit higher education institutes, The "home Flippers" who don't really renovate according to code, The used car sales man who turns back the speedometer, the doctor who overprescribes pain medication for personal gain, the pharmacist who fills that prescription without any followup action because there is a doctors prescription, the Americans during WW2 who Intered in Concentration camps JAPANESE AMERICAN CITIZENS, because of who their parents were in order to "protect society from them and them from society".
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some examples of your logic in action:
> 
> We gave those Indians a few pelts for that land so it is ours now. We didn't make them take the pelts.
> 
> those Incan's signed a complex and formal contract in Spanish (even though it isn't even there language), therefore south America is now under the control of the Spanish empire and they are all our subjects.
> 
> No one made those homeowner take up adjustable rate mortgages,, it isn't our fault that they couldn't afford the adjustment.
> 
> and more recently (and my new favorite):
> 
> Women should learn to negotiate better for their pay, it isn't my fault they are willing to work for less.




 Jason245, you are definitely passionate, and you had posed some pointed questions at the OP that he has not rebutted directly, however you can quickly dilute the veracity and credibility of your arguments when you resort to hyperbolic and tenuous analogies. 

 P.S. I do personally believe that last point about negotiation.  I suppose I should have gone into sales as a profession...


----------



## TUGBrian

FYI here are hundreds of owners and millions of dollars that contradict nearly everything youve posted sofar.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196108


----------



## bastroum

Finding TUG has enabled our family to live a lifestyle, staying in timeshares 4 to 6 months per year, that would not be possible any other way. Not only does TUG save people money on the original purchase, but everyone here helps so much in teaching people how to use and enjoy their time. I, for one, greatly appreciate this forum and the people that contribute.


----------



## Beefnot

To the OP, can you do us, and yourself, a favor and make concise points and arguments? When you talk about "fluff", most of the fluff has come from you in this thread. Keep front in center of your mind that the audience here will be far more discriminating in their critical analysis of your fluffy comments, which may work far better to the uninformed in a verbal sales presentation. 

I don't even begrudge you the ethics angle, which is what most successful consumer retailers will subordinate to varying degrees beneath profits. Many are asking questions along the lines of how do you sleep at night, and when it comes down to it you can say you follow the law and that is where your moral obligation stops. Just say it and we get past that.

Also where I think your ignorance, or at least rhetorical inefficacy, reveals itself most prominently, is in the value of resale over retail. I and others have clearly demonstrated that we are enjoying fabulous experiences for pennies on the retail dollar. How do you rationalize paying retail? How about you just cite the benefits to retail and that many customers are quite satisfied blahblah. When others continue to skewer you over the 90+% premium for those perks, just say that bargain hunting is alive and well in timeshares too and wish everyone well.

So that gets me to what is your point of continuing to engage in this thread? What really even brought you to TUG? I am personally more interested in what your objectives are. To genuinely educate us in some rational failing? To better equip yourself to sharpen your rhetoric for sales presentations? To get in jabs out of frustration over a rescinded sale(s) due to TUG? Pray tell, sir.


----------



## Jason245

Beefnot said:


> Jason245, you are definitely passionate, and you had posed some pointed questions at the OP that he has not rebutted directly, however you can quickly dilute the veracity and credibility of your arguments when you resort to hyperbolic and tenuous analogies.
> 
> P.S. I do personally believe that last point about negotiation.  I suppose I should have gone into sales as a profession...



When I ask them direct he won't answer, when I destroy his analogies he doesn't answer, when I make my own analogies he can't seem to figure out how to answer so he tries to dilute them (probably because he doesn't understand them). 

My point about negotiation isn't about whether it is right or wrong to pay women less because they don't negotiate. My point is, where do you draw the line in the sand.  For a movie star making millions of dollars (but still millions less than a peer) that statement is a joke and meaningless in my opnion (especially since for the most part, movie starts are using agents for negotiation if they are semi smart). For a women making $25k a year while her male counterparts are making $30k a year doing the same unskilled labor job at the same level of ability and skill as those counterparts with equal experience... is that right? Is it her fault she is making less money because she isn't as skilled a negotiator as her male counterparts? If she finds out that her male counterparts are making 20% more than her, is it right of her after the fact to bring that up to her employer, and is it right for the employer to say "NO, you should have negotiated a better deal to begin with, keep it or leave"?. 

We have opportunities to cross lines every day and it is up to us to say yes or no. I read about one experiment where someone put 12 cokes in a fridge at a big office building to see how many were left at the end of the day. Surprisingly all were gone. The next day, he put a plate in the fridge with 12 one dollar bills, no one took the money. 

We all have our own moral compass, and make judgment every day about what type of society we want to live in, leave to our children, and teach our children to participate in. It is easy to manipulate the uneducated out of their money, sell them products that "help" but also provide the seller with obscene commissions (look at Prime America products, or the flood of people selling complex life insurance and annuity products to people that don't need them).

If I had the means and connections to build my own timeshare resort I would, but it would run very different then the current model. Owners would have at their option every year after owning for 10 years the opportunity to turn their property back into the developer and receive ~80% of whatever they paid for it back (every year of ownership before 10 years they would be eligible to turn it in for a prorate portion of 80%). Resale buyers would be eligible for the 80% original purchase price of original buyer so that prices of these units would NEVER fall to nothing, and the Resale market would for the most part be killed without having to add even 1 additional perk. All owners would be treated the same. 
This would give the buyer an out every year, and they would still end up with something.

Salesmen would be provided a salary and reasonable commission that was fully disclosed to the buyer. While not as profitable as the current model, for the most part, the consumer would decide if they like the property or not every year, the profit margin would not be massive, but money would be made on the financing side and the management fees for the HOA as well as rentals.  

This would be a HUGE disruption to the TS market and would kill off a lot of competition or force them to change their products. But that is a utopian world. Still if anyone knows anyone that wants to build that type of business with me, I would be more then happy to start building it with them.


----------



## davidvel

TimeShareProfessional said:


> davidvel I didnt answer you because first and foremost your a tug member you dont buy retail so I could have said the starbucks resort on the dark side of the moon and 5 or 6 of you would have replied with some canned high road tug answer.
> .



Yes, all my questions have been canned. Ok, we all know, including you, that the underlying foundation for each of your sales presentations is a lie. Despite this assertion by me you cannot provide information that would take 1 second to give if in fact it were true.  We all know it's not,  because people on this board were buying ts before you were out of diapers.

#housecardsfalls


----------



## LannyPC

TimeShareProfessional said:


> dselling a product that promotes stress relief (#1 killer in the states) thus saving lives...



Stress relief?!?!  While it might work for a number of people, have you read the countless posts here on TUG from people who are at their wick's end trying to unload their TS?  We get people here weekly looking for advice on how to unload these burdensome "assets".  And as is the case for the majority of them, it's because they went into a TS presentation and bought based on all the lies, skewed facts & figures, deliberate omission of pertinent facts, and high-pressure tactics.

To compound that, many get bombarded with scam phone calls and e-mails and, after falling for these scams, are now even more stressed out because they lost significant amounts of money and are trying desperately (and usually in vain) to get their money back.

Not to mention, I think a lot of people who end up buying retail end up stressing when they find out that 1) they could have bought the same thing resale for a fraction of the cost and 2) they could probably rent a similar unit from an existing owner for less than the MFs.

All that being said, in most cases, I would hardly call buying a TS at retail price stress relief.


----------



## falmouth3

I just came home from a vacation in Aurba at a lovely resort.  I did an exchange using my EOY 2BR in Sedona that I purchased for a total, including closing costs, of $323.  My maintenance fees are on the low side of $800 per year.

We decided to attend the presentation at the resort to see what they were asking for to buy a timeshare at that resort.  We were presented with a points package that would get us a studio in low season - for $20,000.  In order to show us how well the points package would work, the salesman showed us the II website.  He looked up our resort in Sedona.  We both laughed when we saw what "our points" could get us as an exchange - a one bedroom in Sedona in July cost a lot more points that we would have received for the $20K package.  Like I'd even consider going to Sedona in July.

I liked the salesman.  He was personable.  But because of TUG, and my own timesharing experiences, the package we were being presented was not even close to being attractive. It was, in fact laughable.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stress+and+disease Happy reading Jason!

FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????

The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS. It's crap time eoy that people thought they could pay little for and get a lot out of. This is a last ditch effort to get out from under the maintenance fees. If you guys enjoy them great. You WILL find some gold I'm sure, but look how many are listed. If you want to go to the middle of nowhere in off season, Great! Good luck exchanging it for something nice though. 

The big picture is this. To offer an outside voice or opinion to a mob mentality (TS salesman vs angry TUG members) is futile. Especially to a demographic which I assume, based off the way you attempt to talk down to me about age, is far too stuck in their own ways to see things any other light. (And before I hear the assume rhetoric that has been run into the ground, old is old)

Also I have had 4 contracts rescind on me in 5 years and TUG had 0 to do with it, but keep fighting the good fight 

The moral of the story is this. You get what you pay for. I've been saying it all along. To my knowledge you still cant make chicken salad from chicken shit. If someone has the recipe let me know, I could prove a lot of people wrong :rofl:


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stress+and+disease Happy reading Jason!
> 
> FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????
> 
> The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS. It's crap time eoy that people thought they could pay little for and get a lot out of. This is a last ditch effort to get out from under the maintenance fees. If you guys enjoy them great. You WILL find some gold I'm sure, but look how many are listed. If you want to go to the middle of nowhere in off season, Great! Good luck exchanging it for something nice though.
> 
> The big picture is this. To offer an outside voice or opinion to a mob mentality (TS salesman vs angry TUG members) is futile. Especially to a demographic which I assume, based off the way you attempt to talk down to me about age, is far too stuck in their own ways to see things any other light. (And before I hear the assume rhetoric that has been run into the ground, old is old)
> 
> Also I have had 4 contracts rescind on me in 5 years and TUG had 0 to do with it, but keep fighting the good fight
> 
> The moral of the story is this. You get what you pay for. I've been saying it all along. To my knowledge you still cant make chicken salad from chicken shit. If someone has the recipe let me know, I could prove a lot of people wrong :rofl:


I bought two eoy hilton timeshares in Hawaii for 60 dollars all in off ebay. Eoy odd and eoy even.   Put them together and what do you have.. oh an that is for Any time during the year. .

You might not be able to make chicken salad from shit,  but you can buy inexpensive hawaii timeshares in top resorts in a 1br during prime season for less then it costs to buy a television.

I think you need to do more research before you talk.


----------



## tschwa2

See and I thought the moral of the story and of TUG is to know what you are buying, how it works and how to use it, what the real cost involved, etc.

Yeah there are a lot of junk ts on ebay and we tell people not to jump in and buy just because they are the same as the junk timeshares that people like Timeshare Professional sells for $5000+.  It doesn't matter if you pay $1 or $5000 for that off season timeshare with MF's higher than a compatible TS or condo rental, it is still worth $1 regardless of what you paid for it.

There are absolutely timeshares available on ebay and other places that cost less than $5000 and in some cases as low as $1 that will get you to all of those places if you are flexible.  


Do you sell a resort that exchanges in II or RCI? I could give you examples of TS that I own in either system that cost less than $1000.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Where ever you are selling at --- there is highly, highly likely, TUGGERS own there. And if it is a brand name product, there are likely HUNDREDS of TUGGERS who own in that chain. And most likely, hundreds if not thousands of resale owners of that chain from all different venues.

Yes, I have* brought $1 timeshares*. 

And yes, I have "used those $1 TS" to trade into Hawaii multiple times. And I* have RENTED those $1 timeshares for $1200+ dollars every year I have owned them ... paying hundreds less in MFs*. 

I have drunk beers and carry on banter with multiple timeshare sales staff personal ... outside the sales floor. Smoke and mirrors; large egos; flashy clothes & used cars; mostly all needing the next commission check for their next meal & beer ... renting an apartment with a roommate or two (or sleeping on a sofa). Seen multiple sales staff who keep their clothes in the trunk of their car. 

30 days in a real estate class. Passing a state RE exam. Passing the daily check for clothes & attire & makeup & hair ... much less being sober and not stoned. By 7AM. And finishing their last tour after 5PM, to try and close a "deal" for the week. And hoping, they do not bring out a smart phone or get on their laptop back in the unit.

Not a career for myself or even a temporary job. 

And I have a LOT of experience in real estate. For many years.


----------



## falmouth3

TimeShareProfessional said:


> FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????
> 
> The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS.



I had a TS salesman tell me that I couldn't get to Hawaii by exchanging a cheap timeshare.  My response?  I'm here, aren't I?  You are correct, many or most may not get you to Hawaii, but I've been to Hawaii three times, Aruba twice, Scotland, England...  And I never paid a lot for my timeshares.  Oh, and I can get Hiltons in exchange for my "cheap" timeshares, too.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

haha bought for a $1 rented it for $1200 which resort do you develop for??

Jason thought you didn't own any timeshare? did you sell it for profit??

:hysterical:

Wow this community is so twisted in your own web it's crazy.


----------



## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stress+and+disease Happy reading Jason!
> 
> FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????
> 
> The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS. It's crap time eoy that people thought they could pay little for and get a lot out of. This is a last ditch effort to get out from under the maintenance fees. If you guys enjoy them great. You WILL find some gold I'm sure, but look how many are listed. If you want to go to the middle of nowhere in off season, Great! Good luck exchanging it for something nice though.
> 
> The big picture is this. To offer an outside voice or opinion to a mob mentality (TS salesman vs angry TUG members) is futile. Especially to a demographic which I assume, based off the way you attempt to talk down to me about age, is far too stuck in their own ways to see things any other light. (And before I hear the assume rhetoric that has been run into the ground, old is old)
> 
> Also I have had 4 contracts rescind on me in 5 years and TUG had 0 to do with it, but keep fighting the good fight
> 
> The moral of the story is this. You get what you pay for. I've been saying it all along. To my knowledge you still cant make chicken salad from chicken shit. If someone has the recipe let me know, I could prove a lot of people wrong :rofl:



I think you are right, The days of dollar timeshares are over. The word is out and we here at TUG had a lot to do with it. We like this stuff, we see the value and we bid against each other trying to get more.  

So now on ebay I have to spend thousands of dollars to get what I want. The point is the same. I can buy what the developers are selling for a fraction.  Worldmark developer pricing is about $3 a credit. I can buy the same thing on the secondary market from a licensed broker for about 50 cents
Wyndhams developer pricing is, last I checked 22 cents a point, and brokers are getting about 2 cents

I dont expect you to tell your prospects anything about the secondary market. and shame on them if they dont research it for themselves, but dont lie to me or yourself and suggest that what I own  is less than what you are peddling

Ive been a salesman for a long time ("old is old", I get it) and one of the rules taught to me in the securities industry is  "know your client"  I know there are no rules in the wild west of timeshare sales, but its a good rule that every salesman should follow whether you have to or not.  You asked early on what we see  in what you do that we could call it a scam...  This is it.  You need to know enough about your client to know what you are selling is suitable for them. If you sell them something they dont need or want or cant afford, or misrepresent your product or lie to make a commission, its a scam.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> haha bought for a $1 rented it for $1200 which resort do you develop for??
> 
> Jason thought you didn't own any timeshare? did you sell it for profit??
> 
> :hysterical:
> 
> Wow this community is so twisted in your own web it's crazy.


I never said I didn't own.  Maybe if you read what I write instead of just talking at me you would know.

In fact this is the second time I stated that I own. In fact, I am pretty sure that the selling agent was paid upwards of $2500 to liquidate the timeshare for the client. That being said, I put in bids for decent amounts on each one ($1000) and because no one else bid, I got them at those prices because that is how EBAY works with auctions.


----------



## vacationhopeful

TimeShareProfessional said:


> *haha bought for a $1 rented it for $1200 which resort do you develop for??*
> Jason thought you didn't own any timeshare? did you sell it for profit??
> 
> :hysterical:
> 
> Wow this community is so twisted in your own web it's crazy.



Laughing all the way to the bank .... I get a lot more than $1200 per week for my $1 units when they are week 52 or week 8 or week 10 or week 12's ..... 

And yes, I am always open to selling those weeks .... for a very nice profit in the thousands of dollars range above all my costs... :hysterical:

And I am NOT the only TUG MEMBER who has those options and opportunity to cash in on timeshare weeks brought for $1 ... I even had been given weeks and points for free ... every year and offered MANY MORE weeks & points that I chose NOT to accept.


----------



## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> haha bought for a $1 rented it for $1200 which resort do you develop for??
> 
> Jason thought you didn't own any timeshare? did you sell it for profit??
> 
> :hysterical:
> 
> Wow this community is so twisted in your own web it's crazy.



I cant speak for Jason, but I can tell you his story is not unique,  I bought a week at the Avenue Plaza Resort in New Orleans for a dollar and it came with a reservation in place that I rented for $1000. I enjoyed  that experience so much I bought 14 more,  I am able to rent these year after year for a profit of at least $1000 each

so haha yourself. I understand you might not know such opportunities exist but shame on you for rejecting the possibility and laughing it off.


----------



## TUGBrian

the fact that someone claiming to be a salesman has only now "discovered ebay" as a resale option and then discredits it tells you everything you need to know =)


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

First of all you all imply that I lie yet none of you know me. Further more you clump all TS sales people together saying we all lie. This in itself is fluff. (BTW don't care to waste my time getting to know you just making a point.) That would be saying all sales people lie.

Have you ever been to a TS resort that was completely empty?? (some of probably have since you paid $1) Have you ever been to a TS resort and everyone there was miserable, not having any fun, yelling scam?

ALMOST ALL families you see on resort properties bought retail and enjoy it every year. TS has been around since the late 70's early 80's and is still going strong. (you guys are proof of that scrambling in this bargain bin) 

I have buddies from college that are lawyers, doctors and scientists that all get TRASHED on the weekend, still get support financially from their families and show up to work on monday. Now, should I say OMG these professions are drunk party animals with no financial responsibility? On top of the fact that you judge yet partake in the action.

Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??

They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

I love it!!! The true colors show. Why not rent them out for the $1 you paid??? Why take advantage of those who don't know as much as you and make %999 profit??? Why not inform them that for the same $1000 you are SCAMMING them out of to rent yours one time they could buy a handful and have money left over to drive or fly to them???????

This place is indeed a joke. Condemn others for what you yourselves do... Get out of here. Like I said bargain bin shoppers trying to live the life hoping to turn a profit. You proved yourselves wrong! 

InB4 thats just 1 or 2 people, that was my point first :hysterical:


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Brian when did I ever say i just discovered ebay for resale?? I just wanted to acknowledge that it was still crap (which it is)

Shouldn't you be off changing someone's forum title before your jimmies are rustled again?? (He remove the 3rd degree burn posts FYI)


----------



## Beaglemom3

TimeShareProfessional said:


> First of all you all imply that I lie yet none of you know me. Further more you clump all TS sales people together saying we all lie. This in itself is fluff. (BTW don't care to waste my time getting to know you just making a point.) That would be saying all sales people lie.
> 
> Have you ever been to a TS resort that was completely empty?? (some of probably have since you paid $1) Have you ever been to a TS resort and everyone there was miserable, not having any fun, yelling scam?
> 
> ALMOST ALL families you see on resort properties bought retail and enjoy it every year. TS has been around since the late 70's early 80's and is still going strong. (you guys are proof of that scrambling in this bargain bin)
> 
> *I have buddies from college that are lawyers, doctors and scientists that all get TRASHED on the weekend, still get support financially from their families and show up to work on monday. Now, should I say OMG these professions are drunk party animals with no financial responsibility? On top of the fact that you judge yet partake in the action.* HUH ?
> 
> Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??
> 
> They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.





TimeShareProfessional said:


> I love it!!! The true colors show.* Why not rent them out for the $1 you paid??? Why take advantage of those who don't know as much as you and make %999 profit??? Why not inform them that for the same $1000 you are SCAMMING them out of to rent yours one time they could buy a handful and have money left over to drive or fly to them???????*
> This place is indeed a joke. Condemn others for what you yourselves do... Get out of here. Like I said bargain bin shoppers trying to live the life hoping to turn a profit. You proved yourselves wrong!
> 
> InB4 thats just 1 or 2 people, that was my point first :hysterical:




  The level of ridiculousness in these posts are simply staggering. Just staggering.

  You really don't know anything about timeshares, do you ? Your questions expose your continued ignorance. No one is taking advantage of those renting. How do you think maintenance fees and assessments are paid ?



  In a war of words  - you are an unarmed man.


-

  -


----------



## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> First of all you all imply that I lie yet none of you know me. Further more you clump all TS sales people together saying we all lie. This in itself is fluff. (BTW don't care to waste my time getting to know you just making a point.) That would be saying all sales people lie.
> 
> Have you ever been to a TS resort that was completely empty?? (some of probably have since you paid $1) Have you ever been to a TS resort and everyone there was miserable, not having any fun, yelling scam?
> 
> ALMOST ALL families you see on resort properties bought retail and enjoy it every year. TS has been around since the late 70's early 80's and is still going strong. (you guys are proof of that scrambling in this bargain bin)
> 
> I have buddies from college that are lawyers, doctors and scientists that all get TRASHED on the weekend, still get support financially from their families and show up to work on monday. Now, should I say OMG these professions are drunk party animals with no financial responsibility? On top of the fact that you judge yet partake in the action.
> 
> Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??
> 
> They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.



Not only are they happy with their purchase, they think Im nuts when I tell them (only if asked) that they could have had the same thing for considerably less. 

So you dont like being lumped in with all those other salesmen that lie and cheat.  Sorry, I dont like it when when you generalize either.  Everything here is not fluff. in fact very little is. 

What was your purpose here in crashing our party.  You had to know you werent going to change any minds. And you had to know at least some of us know what we are talking about

Linda, Jason and I and the folks like us that make money with our timeshares, are not in the majority , but the folks that get good value from their ownership are. . Why you cant accept that is beyond me.


----------



## vacationhopeful

TimeShareProfessional said:


> ... TS has been around since the late 70's early 80's and is still going strong. ....
> Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??
> 
> They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.



Went to my first timeshare presentation in 1975 ... Shawnee Resort (RC001) selling 2 fixed deed weeks together on one deed ... one Prime and one offseason. Did not buy at $3750 ... about 25% of my gross income that year.

And item's value is set ONLY by the person buying it. And the offered price is set by the seller .. who has the motivation to sell at whatever price and speed needed to generate an offer. Or to accept any value of an offer made.

Go look at complete eBay sales ... check the resort chain you sell for.


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

beaglemom you must be very mentally challeged #IfYouKnowWhatImSaying

For some, this is very strong selling point. Your site judges TS companies and salespeople for selling a product that they feel is way over priced for the value. Yet these same people see no problem in making money off others who did not know any better than to buy a resale rather than to pay 1000 to rent it once. $1 to own vs $1000 to rent. Is there mark up here??? 

The mantra of the site is "saving consumers from getting scammed." The back bone is OMG buy resale its much cheaper. "Do your research don't get scammed by retail sellers!!!" Yet the very people who stand for this ideology are in turn, profiting from others who "don't know any better" and making profits far greater than what they paid to own them by renting them out.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Ken555 said:


> Mods: have you discovered which developer this joker is from based on IP yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



  I'm wondering if it's located in Nashville, Tn. 

 Remember that scamming TS salesjerk that Denise and I exposed ?

 That was so much fun.

Let's do it again !

  -


----------



## vacationhopeful

ronparise said:


> .....
> Linda, Jason and I and the folks like us that make money with our timeshares, are not in the majority , but the folks that get good value from their ownership are. . Why you cant accept that is beyond me.



Thanks, Ron.

There are many, many Tug members who rent some of their ownerships on a regular basis. They have learned their particular ownerships do have value and they sometimes use their vacation money for a different kind of vacation - a cruise, a national park excursion ... recouping their TS maintenance fees and costs by renting normally the ownerships they personally use.

As for the $1 timeshares going away ... yes, fewer eBay listings in recent months. But still getting many bargains offered sent to me. 

OP should just check the TUG Bargain Deals thread .... and eBay listings. Afterall, he is an expert ... he could ask for deed info on resorts he is familiar with on the eBay listings. And check the SOLD eBay listings ...


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> First of all you all imply that I lie yet none of you know me. Further more you clump all TS sales people together saying we all lie. This in itself is fluff. (BTW don't care to waste my time getting to know you just making a point.) That would be saying all sales people lie.
> 
> Have you ever been to a TS resort that was completely empty?? (some of probably have since you paid $1) Have you ever been to a TS resort and everyone there was miserable, not having any fun, yelling scam?
> 
> ALMOST ALL families you see on resort properties bought retail and enjoy it every year. TS has been around since the late 70's early 80's and is still going strong. (you guys are proof of that scrambling in this bargain bin)
> 
> I have buddies from college that are lawyers, doctors and scientists that all get TRASHED on the weekend, still get support financially from their families and show up to work on monday. Now, should I say OMG these professions are drunk party animals with no financial responsibility? On top of the fact that you judge yet partake in the action.
> 
> Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??
> 
> They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.



What about the owners that can't make it to the resort due to financial hardship and are having a hard time paying the MF, the reason they aren't at the resort is because you sold them a product they should never have bought in the first place.


----------



## slip

TimeShareProfessional said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stress+and+disease Happy reading Jason!
> 
> FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????
> 
> The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS. It's crap time eoy that people thought they could pay little for and get a lot out of. This is a last ditch effort to get out from under the maintenance fees. If you guys enjoy them great. You WILL find some gold I'm sure, but look how many are listed. If you want to go to the middle of nowhere in off season, Great! Good luck exchanging it for something nice though.
> 
> The big picture is this. To offer an outside voice or opinion to a mob mentality (TS salesman vs angry TUG members) is futile. Especially to a demographic which I assume, based off the way you attempt to talk down to me about age, is far too stuck in their own ways to see things any other light. (And before I hear the assume rhetoric that has been run into the ground, old is old)
> 
> Also I have had 4 contracts rescind on me in 5 years and TUG had 0 to do with it, but keep fighting the good fight
> 
> The moral of the story is this. You get what you pay for. I've been saying it all along. To my knowledge you still cant make chicken salad from chicken shit. If someone has the recipe let me know, I could prove a lot of people wrong :rofl:



This post just proves you have no clue what your talking about. You keep saying
About renting a $1 timeshare for $1,000 but you never remember the 
Maintenance fees. 

You also keep saying the $1 timeshares are crap in off seasons but you obviously 
Either don't know how to read the listings or you don't know about timeshares.
You have to know what your buying, how is a floating week 1-52 in Hawaii an
Off or shoulder season?

I don't expect you to tell your customers they can by the same thing for penny's
On the dollar but to come on here and say we don't know anything, that makes you very
Misinformed.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction??
> 
> They don't. It's not realistic. Fluff.



The reason is because the salesperson FAILED at selling the right product to them. When someone can not afford the perpetual financial burden of MF increases and assessments, they look for any way out, and since the person that sold it to them has no interest in helping them out and the resort won't help them out, they go to third parties who will take their TS off their hands for a fee of several thousand dollars. 

If those third parties can't find a buyer, they usually put the title in a Viking ship and sink it causing hardship on the resort in question. 

AGAIN, this is all because of TS sales people selling people products they should not own. 

If you don't do it, then fine, but if you do, understand the chain of events you cause.


----------



## Beaglemom3

slip said:


> This post just proves you have no clue what your talking about. *You keep saying
> About renting a $1 timeshare for $1,000 but you never remember the
> Maintenance fees. *
> You also keep saying the $1 timeshares are crap in off seasons but you obviously
> Either don't know how to read the listings or you don't know about timeshares.
> You have to know what your buying, how is a floating week 1-52 in Hawaii an
> Off or shoulder season?
> 
> I don't expect you to tell your customers they can by the same thing for penny's
> On the dollar but to come on here and say we don't know anything, that makes you very
> Misinformed.




  I said the exact same thing in post #201, but got no response as he's got nothing.

  Uh, oh. Now he's going to call _you_ mentally challenged. This is his M.O.

_ 
Failure To State: 
If you make enough attacks and ask enough provocative questions, you may never have to actually define your own position on the topic._


-


----------



## TimeShareProfessional

Jason245 said:


> What about the owners that can't make it to the resort due to financial hardship and are having a hard time paying the MF, the reason they aren't at the resort is because you sold them a product they should never have bought in the first place.



If you know they're are in a bad financial situation why not offer them more than a $1 on what they paid 1000's for?

Thanks for laughs. Also the confirmation. The same type of tour everywhere. Most do not belong there but try to keep up with the Jones's. That's you guys. Keep on keeping on. Glad I could give your board  some new excitement. I hear there is also a good resale market on used panties. Undies are pretty cheap. If you're looking to expand your portfolio maybe give that a shot! :whoopie:


----------



## slip

I've posted a few others he didn't answer to either but it must be because we
Are TUG members.


----------



## Beaglemom3

slip said:


> I've posted a few others he didn't answer to either but it must be because we
> Are TUG members.



  Yes, that's it !   :rofl:


-


----------



## Jason245

ronparise said:


> Not only are they happy with their purchase, they think Im nuts when I tell them (only if asked) that they could have had the same thing for considerably less.
> 
> So you dont like being lumped in with all those other salesmen that lie and cheat.  Sorry, I dont like it when when you generalize either.  Everything here is not fluff. in fact very little is.
> 
> What was your purpose here in crashing our party.  You had to know you werent going to change any minds. And you had to know at least some of us know what we are talking about
> 
> Linda, Jason and I and the folks like us that make money with our timeshares, are not in the majority , but the folks that get good value from their ownership are. . Why you cant accept that is beyond me.



I actually don't rent, but own for my own pleasure, but that is only because the time investment for rentals isn't worth the profit I would receive given the other things I have going on. 

Ironically, I am the perfect customer for a timeshare. My family is young and is in need of the extra ammenties that a TS offers over a hotel. My past history in vacation travel was using tricks with credit cards to get enough points for top notch hotel stays for myself and my wife before our son was born. Now that I have a toddler, I needed to look for better options, and I found a solution that saves me money every year on travel and has a pay back period of less than 1 year of travel on "savings". 

When I no longer need the product, I am fully prepared to liquidate it for what I paid, or if necessary subsidize the liquidation (although given the bargain basement on TUG, I doubt I would have to since HGVC properties usually have takers especially if they are premium points packages). 

The difference between me and the customers that TS salesmen can browbeat into submission after only 90 minutes  using aggressive sales tactics is that I have certain financial rules that I follow with my wife, including extensive research, 24 hour cooling off periods before major purchases, additional extensive research, and then pulling the trigger. I READ EVERYTHING when it involves my hard earned money, and very rarely do I let things slip by. I found errors on my home purchase contract that had to be corrected even though 3 layer of review on the bank and closing company had already occurred. If I don't understand something, I ask questions, If I don't like language in a contract, I pull out my pen and change it and always add provisions at the end of the contract that state that by providing goods and services the seller/provider agrees to the changes in the contract, and then I make copies of everything via my cell phone.


----------



## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> If you know they're are in a bad financial situation why not offer them more than a $1 on what they paid 1000's for?
> 
> Thanks for laughs. Also the confirmation. The same type of tour everywhere. Most do not belong there but try to keep up with the Jones's. That's you guys. Keep on keeping on. Glad I could give your board  some new excitement. I hear there is also a good resale market on used panties. Undies are pretty cheap. If you're looking to expand your portfolio maybe give that a shot! :whoopie:



Umm, because by the time it gets listed on EBAY it isn't the owner listing it, it is a third party that the owner paid to get the timeshare off their hands. 

I understand the English is a hard language to grasp for some, but if something is repeated a few times, you think you would understand. Or are you willfully ignorant and malicious. If you are so be it, but what the heck are you doing here? 

Do you know what I think, this has nothing to do with recision, and everything to do with your falling conversion rate. you can laugh about all the good customers you are selling to and all the commission you are taking home and I don't really care. 

For the life of me I really don't understand what you are trying to accomplish? 

Are you a troll trying to get attention because mommy didn't love you enough as a kid?
Are you a board salesman with no ability to search out your own leads and so has extra time to go on TUG to vent?
Are you trying to convince people on TUG that they are the problem with the industry which will never happen?


Think about this, it is memorial day weekend, the ideal weekend to pick up long weekend travelers and sell them your product, and you are on TUG defending it, probably because your numbers are down, and the rent check is due next week .


----------



## Beefnot

TimeShareProfessional said:


> FYI I just googled timeshares on ebay and there are TS on there for a $1. If MOST of these TS will get you to Hawaii, Fiji, Paris etc... do you really think they would be on Ebay for $1????
> 
> The TS's on ebay for $1 are just that, $1 TS.



I don't believe anyone is suggesting that all $1 timeshares (which, keep in mind, were originally sold retail at exponential premiums) are created equal. 

 All of my timeshare purchases have been $1 or less, net of current year's prepaid maintenance fees. The last one I closed on earlier this year provides me 50 TPU in RCI that allowed me to book two weeks at HGVC Kingsland next year for under $100 per night in a 2br.  I have three dual-affiliated weeks at another resort that I paid well under $1 for that do not have quite the excellent Maintenance Fee to TPU ratio, but I was still able to score a Disney Aulani trade in a 2Br for about $150 per night or so.  I have used those same other weeks for 2BR Four Seasons Aviara, 2BR Marriott Grand Chateau, and others for <$100 per night.  I also use another timeshare system I own to make very significant rental income as well (Ron, watch out...)

 In sum, TUG has changed my life. I have learned so much from other members and via trial and error as well, and none of it would have been possible without this forum.  I do recognize that many of us TUGgers are the minority, those precious few who have been fortunate enough to have taken the red pill.  But that in no way means that our experiences are not real. They are.


----------



## ronparise

TimeShareProfessional said:


> The mantra of the site is "saving consumers from getting scammed." The back bone is OMG buy resale its much cheaper. "Do your research don't get scammed by retail sellers!!!" Yet the very people who stand for this ideology are in turn, profiting from others who "don't know any better" and making profits far greater than what they paid to own them by renting them out.



I realize this is not much more than a rationalization but I didnt steal anything from the guy I bought from. He lost his money the day he paid retail prices at the resort. I paid him the market price. and more than that, saved him from a life time of maintenance fees. That I can make something with my timeshares is testament to my skill  as a vacation rental agent, not to my ability as a con artist.

There thats what I was looking for, Id say scam artist isnt really an accurate discription.  Con Artist is much better: con artist,   a swindler who exploits the confidence of his victim


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## Jason245

vacationhopeful said:


> Thanks, Ron.
> 
> There are many, many Tug members who rent some of their ownerships on a regular basis. They have learned their particular ownerships do have value and they sometimes use their vacation money for a different kind of vacation - a cruise, a national park excursion ... recouping their TS maintenance fees and costs by renting normally the ownerships they personally use.
> 
> As for the $1 timeshares going away ... yes, fewer eBay listings in recent months. But still getting many bargains offered sent to me.
> 
> OP should just check the TUG Bargain Deals thread .... and eBay listings. Afterall, he is an expert ... he could ask for deed info on resorts he is familiar with on the eBay listings. And check the SOLD eBay listings ...



I actually think the $1 timeshares are seasonal. I would expect that come the end of this year, there will be a number of listings for people trying to avoid having to pay another year of MF.


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## Jason245

ronparise said:


> I realize this is not much more than a rationalization but I didnt steal anything from the guy I bought from. He lost his money the day he paid retail prices at the resort. I paid him the market price. and more than that, saved him from a life time of maintenance fees. That I can make something with my timeshares is testament to my skill  as a vacation rental agent, not to my ability as a con artist.



By the way, Ron is a LICENSED real estate agent. His has turned TS purchase, resale and rental into his "profession". He is required to follow a code of ethics and conduct to retain his license.  In all my readings of him, he has offered fair prices to his customers on rentals (generally better prices then people could get from the resorts themselves), he has always been accommodating to his customers needs and accordingly has REPEAT customers. He is the true definition of a salesman. 

When people come onto this board and ask for help using their ownership, he is among the first to provide it because when these same people try to contact the salesman who sold it to them, that person is not willing to help. When someone wants to get out of their resort, he doesn't act like a scammer and charge them to take it off their hands, he gives them a current fair value offer (assuming he is interested). 

He basically helps the people that most timeshare salespeople fail to help because after the check clears they can't be bothered. 

Think on that.


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## TimeShareProfessional

Jason245 said:


> Umm, because by the time it gets listed on EBAY it isn't the owner listing it, it is a third party that the owner paid to get the timeshare off their hands.
> 
> I understand the English is a hard language to grasp for some, but if something is repeated a few times, you think you would understand. Or are you willfully ignorant and malicious. If you are so be it, but what the heck are you doing here?
> 
> Do you know what I think, this has nothing to do with recision, and everything to do with your falling conversion rate. you can laugh about all the good customers you are selling to and all the commission you are taking home and I don't really care.
> 
> For the life of me I really don't understand what you are trying to accomplish?
> 
> Are you a troll trying to get attention because mommy didn't love you enough as a kid?
> Are you a board salesman with no ability to search out your own leads and so has extra time to go on TUG to vent?
> Are you trying to convince people on TUG that they are the problem with the industry which will never happen?
> 
> 
> Think about this, it is memorial day weekend, the ideal weekend to pick up long weekend travelers and sell them your product, and you are on TUG defending it, probably because your numbers are down, and the rent check is due next week .



Thought I was done but what the hell 1 more post. This one, for spite.

That** English is a hard language 
Are you a bored** salesman
My prospects come to me for trinkets and gifts we discussed this.
The industry is great. We saw a 100+ tours all weekend.
I told you I live the life. I already worked and made my money for the day (Dat commission doe.)
Rent pffft I preach rent vs own my house is paid for.

GGz nice attempt. your are the grey knight. definitely not white (they got tide for that doe.) 

Actually this is entertaining but I must bid adieu. Going to grill and have fun. <3


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## Jason245

Beaglemom3 said:


> I'm wondering if it's located in Nashville, Tn.
> 
> Remember that scamming TS salesman that Denise and I exposed ?
> 
> That was so much fun.
> 
> Let's do it again !
> 
> -



When did this happen?


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## Jason245

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Thought I was done but what the hell 1 more post. This one, for spite.
> 
> That** English is a hard language
> Are you a bored** salesman
> My prospects come to me for trinkets and gifts we discussed this.
> The industry is great. We saw a 100+ tours all weekend.
> I told you I live the life. I already worked and made my money for the day (Dat commission doe.)
> Rent pffft I preach rent vs own my house is paid for.
> 
> GGz nice attempt. your are the grey knight. definitely not white (they got tide for that doe.)
> 
> Actually this is entertaining but I must bid adieu. Going to grill and have fun. <3



The perfect example of a talking head. All Talk but when you look inside there is nothing but air.

Prospects do not equal conversion, and if you don't know what a conversion rate is, you must really be an "EXCEPTIONAL" salesman.

I am typing on a cell phone with a toddler running around the house and making more sense then you with all my typos.


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## Beaglemom3

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Thought I was done but what the hell 1 more post. This one, for spite.
> 
> That** English is a hard language
> Are you a bored** salesman
> My prospects come to me for trinkets and gifts we discussed this.
> The industry is great. We saw a 100+ tours all weekend.
> I told you I live the life. I already worked and made my money for the day (Dat commission doe.)
> Rent pffft I preach rent vs own my house is paid for.
> 
> GGz nice attempt. your are the grey knight. definitely not white (they got tide for that doe.)
> 
> Actually this is entertaining but I must bid adieu. Going to grill and have fun. <3



-


You should talk.  

Here are just a few of yours:


_  If you know they're are in a bad financial situation 



davidvel I didnt answer you because first and foremost your a tug member 



Hi, I am a Timeshare salesman who cant read the rules! _


-


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## Beaglemom3

Jason245 said:


> When did this happen?



http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222035

Similar style.


Venimus et nos vidimus calce asinum (bad translation of  "we came, we saw, we kicked his arse").


-


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## gnorth16

Love my timeshares, love my trips, love TUG and Tuggers.  

My last trip to Hawaii was for almost 3 weeks on two different islands and I stayed in 2BR units, all Hilton, all for about $400 per week.  

3 of 4 Christmas' are spent on the beach in Mexico for 2 weeks, all for about $400 per week.

I sent my sister to NYC and she stayed in Manhattan, right by Central Park for a week, all for about $400.  

I gave my friend who is recently divorced a 3BR timeshare in Orlando for a week to spend time with his boys and it cost about $400.

OP can spout anything he wants, but this is great. Learn about what you have and how to make the most of it, retail or resale!!!


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## Jason245

Beaglemom3 said:


> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222035
> 
> Similar style.
> 
> 
> Venimus et nos vidimus calce asinum (bad translation of  "we came, we saw, we kicked his arse").
> 
> 
> -



LOL. C'est Drole.


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## Beaglemom3

Jason245 said:


> LOL. C'est Drole.



Oui, très.


His style just reminded me of the TS salesjerk who came out swinging while pretending to be someone just trying to sell his timeshare earlier on Tug this year. He was a first time poster, too.

I back traced him (skip tracing was my favorite course in law school) via FB and beyond - all the way back to a timeshare resale company. Too funny.

Voilà  !

-


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## Jason245

If only we had access to his ip address. .oh the information we could gather.


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## Beaglemom3

Jason245 said:


> If only we had access to his ip address. .oh the information we could gather.



  Yes, we could keep in touch . :rofl:


-


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## TUGBrian

no need....

im fully convinced he/she is just a troll, as noone could be this ignorant for any other reason that deliberately.  not even an actual salesman.


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## Beaglemom3

Quote:  :TUGBrian "no need.... im fully convinced he/she is just a troll, as no one could be this ignorant for any other reason that deliberately.  *not even an actual salesman.[/*QUOTE]

  Good one ! :hysterical:

  Took me a minute (being mentally challenged and all...).

-


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## Timeshare Von

TimeShareProfessional said:


> <<SNIPPED>>
> 
> Congrats for those that found resale that works. You are indeed the minority. Again if that worked that well why in the world would someone pay 10's of thousands yet sell it for a $1 or fraction?



Probably because they don't know about TUG yet . . . on both counts!


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## davidvel

TUGBrian said:


> no need....
> 
> im fully convinced he/she is just a troll, as noone could be this ignorant for any other reason that deliberately.  not even an actual salesman.


While I still think he's a salesman as he failed to answer the most direct pointed questions that he knew could be objectively debunked, it was truly bizarre.


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## Cheryl20772

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Also, after the first "owner update" why go back if you don't want anymore? Reps get paid to sell. So to accept monetary gain is subjecting yourself to that environment.



I don't know about where you work, but everywhere I have stayed, there is real pressure put on guests to attend the "update" which is really always a sales presentation. I have stood at the car pass desk and repeated "no, may I please have my car permit?" over and over at least 5 times before the person there finally relents and gives me what is supposed to be free (a parking pass or the pool bands). It's easier for many to just say yes sign me up instead of taking a veritable arm twisting to get on to vacation. 

I've had them promise me that it will just be an update and not a sales meeting at all and what do I get when I agree to go? - you know it... an attempt to sell me more. If I am lied to, why should I feel any guilt about taking whatever incentive was offered for my time? Are you implying that, after I see it is not just an update and really a sales presentation, I should not take the incentive? Reps are being paid to lie to me...not just to sell. This is my experience over the years and you might not do it yourself, but it is nasty and you will find that my experience is not by any means isolated. Open your eyes to the real world.


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## WinniWoman

Cheryl20772 said:


> I don't know about where you work, but everywhere I have stayed, there is real pressure put on guests to attend the "update" which is really always a sales presentation. I have stood at the car pass desk and repeated "no, may I please have my car permit?" over and over at least 5 times before the person there finally relents and gives me what is supposed to be free (a parking pass or the pool bands). It's easier for many to just say yes sign me up instead of taking a veritable arm twisting to get on to vacation.
> 
> I've had them promise me that it will just be an update and not a sales meeting at all and what do I get when I agree to go? - you know it... an attempt to sell me more. If I am lied to, why should I feel any guilt about taking whatever incentive was offered for my time? Are you implying that, after I see it is not just an update and really a sales presentation, I should not take the incentive? Reps are being paid to lie to me...not just to sell. This is my experience over the years and you might not do it yourself, but it is nasty and you will find that my experience is not by any means isolated. Open your eyes to the real world.



Since Wyndham took over sales at our home resort we have had to endure this every time we check in. I have complained to mgmt. and they have assured me I (individually) will not be hassled any longer- we'll see. 

But what I do anywhere I go is when they pull that parking pass, unit keys or update stuff on me, I tell them that if they do not give me my keys (or pass or whatever) I will begin to raise my voice for all to hear and it won't be pretty. And I have done it! I also refuse to step away from the front desk and have demanded the poor front desk person retrieve my keys for me. It is despicable that we have to endure this kind of thing on our precious vacation time! I refuse to put up with this! We are paying club owners! It's just terrible!


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## taterhed

Well, if the purpose of this muck-pit of a thread was to raise the web-stats of TUG, then it was successful.

If the purpose was to learn something, namely that timeshare owners are *passionate*, then that was successful too.

If the purpose was to convince me that TS salesmen are misunderstood, wrongly accused or much underrated....  then this thread was an EPIC fail.    This is despite the fact that my experiences with TS sales have been relatively positive, straight forward and un-embellished.  Much like buying a Subaru. (grin, couldn't resist a stupid analogy)

Timeshare resale is a valid, rewarding choice for many--especially families.
TUG is an amazing source of information, support and compassion.
Most people, I believe, are inherently good and want to help others enjoy and better their lives.  Not all.  
IMHO.

Time to get back to reading about future trips, future plans and vicariously enjoying other vacations.  

Hope the troll had fun and goes back under his bridge.

No, I will not say 'mic drop' or something similarly stupid.  chuckle.


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## rapmarks

it makes no sense to me that a salesperson or developer want to regard a resale as worthless.  There comes a point where you cannot use the timeshare anymore; they don't want to assist in disposing of it.  Why would someone buy anything they can never get rid of and have to keep paying fees in addition .


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## silentg

Leave us alone! We are happy with our re sales!


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## vacationhopeful

My TUG tee shirt arrived today .. the one with the "I paid more for this tee shirt than my timeshare" quote. Should make a great tiki bar and pool shirt.


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## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> My TUG tee shirt arrived today .. the one with the "I paid more for this tee shirt than my timeshare" quote. Should make a great tiki bar and pool shirt.



Can't wait to get mine. Maybe when I get home it will be in the mail.I am going to wear it when I check in and to the owners meeting as well as when I am doing group activities or by the pool. Heck- I should have bought more than one! LOL!:hysterical:


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## Beefnot

mpumilia said:


> Can't wait to get mine. Maybe when I get home it will be in the mail.I am going to wear it when I check in and to the owners meeting as well as when I am doing group activities or by the pool. Heck- I should have bought more than one! LOL!:hysterical:


 
I am a proponent of The Matrix model.  I mention it on the down low.  Plus, I'm self interested.  I don't want to push some wholesale disruption to the current timeshare model that provides financial incentive for decadent timeshare developments that I splurge on.  Otherwise, one day I will be faced with having to settle for just "clean and comfortable".  I would rue the day...


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## spaulino

After reading this, I sure hope I dont get a salesman like him when I attend the sales presentation at Welks SD. I got "freebies" offered to me, but the lady was so nice and she even said her sister took those freebies last year and didn't buy either... freebies included a Hawaii airfare for 2 and her sister enjoyed it! :zzz:
Also went to a sales presentation for Marriott before at MKO but salesman there was professional, no pressure... I'm proud of myself for being firm and didn't buy and found this website and ended up buying resale last month and it's about to close next week for the exact same property, at MKO for less than 1/4 of the developer price...  Cant' wait for our first use.


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## Ty1on

I don't know what made me decide to take a whack at this dead horse.


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## theo

PrestonCaldwell said:


> I don't know what made me decide to take a whack at this dead horse.



You did so eloquently and effectively, so personally I'm disappointed to see your solid input now apparently voluntarily "edited out". 
Let's be honest --- that slimy sales weasel and his twisted and evasive deflection of all logic just *begged* to be whacked.


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## AriMorgan

Wow....after just reading this and knowing many on Tugg I would have to say this timeshare guy really sounds like my ex-husband. Yes as you can see he is my ex for a reason.  If it is he is just bitter because I help people with resales.:hysterical:


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## Ken555

theo said:


> You did so eloquently and effectively, so personally I'm disappointed to see your solid input now apparently voluntarily "edited out".




+1

I enjoyed the car analogy in the pre-edit post.


Sent from my iPad


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## sandkastle4966

I am really late to this party.....If he really is a salesman, I wish I knew where  - I would like to go be a moocher with him !  I could waste an entire day just for fun.


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## LannyPC

sandkastle4966 said:


> .If he really is a salesman, I wish I knew where  - I would like to go be a moocher with him !  I could waste an entire day just for fun.



You could, but usually when one is tired of you, he/she passes you on to another sales person to have a go at you - kind of like tag team in wrestling.  So you would be wasting more of your time than his.


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## Crohnos01

TimeShareProfessional said:


> tschwa2 Sales reps feel the same way about tours, as tours feel about sales reps. I can't tell you all the terms there are for people that take timeshare tours but "moochers" is one of the more popular.
> 
> A lot of sales people in general get frustrated with not selling etc.. so they can be high strung. Consumers on the other hand take money and gifts to take sells presentations and then act appalled when they are asked to buy something. At a sales presentation!!!! I can't tell you how many times I've heard people cry wolf "Oh high pressure" because they are asked to purchase. I can't speak for everyone but there is a big difference in high pressure and asking someone to buy. Also, after the first "owner update" why go back if you don't want anymore? Reps get paid to sell. So to accept monetary gain is subjecting yourself to that environment.




Ok, I am late to the party on this I know, but having just finished a timeshare sales presentation, I take offence to this commentary. I didn't call the timeshare company to ask to see their product... they contacted me and then didn't tell me that it was a presentation to sell me a timeshare until after they charged me a nonrefundable fee to go on a "vacation thank you for being a club member of the hotel chain". I dare say that if there was any lack of ethics, it wasn't on my side of the deal. When I got to the presentation, I told the sales person I wasn't going to buy and why... in spite of that they got ticked when I said "NO". Hence why many of us consider the developers sales tactics "High Pressure" and "Scams".


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## DavidnRobin

TimeShareProfessional said:


> Yes I sell timeshare. Yes I've done it for years. Yes it works. (Let's get that out of the way first)
> 
> So, the majority of this forum that I've seen (granted I haven't gone over it with a fine toothed comb) is mainly fluff. The views and ideas of timeshare here are soooooo far from accurate (as a whole) it makes me wonder where the bulk of this info actually comes from.
> 
> Now, to make the playing field as level as possible, let me lay a quick foundation.
> 
> 1. Timeshare is not for everyone!!!!! (RESORTS are in high demand, high traffic areas thus the price tag associated)
> 
> 2. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR (pardon the caps but we all know this holds true for any product you purchase)
> 
> 3. Like any business not all companies are going to be reputable. (I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't go to ebay and buy a cheap Chinese knock off just to say I had an Iphone.)
> 
> 4. As far as the whole resale market is concerned, good luck. For those of you who have had success with it, congrats! Just know you are the minority. (Also I love the fact that the community here drags timeshare through the mud, yet most people here are either actively traveling or trying to travel this way!)
> 
> I would love to hear the communities feedback on why it is a "scam" (I'm so excited to argue with tours who are not actually tours!!! Selling 101 Right or Rich?) So let's have some fun with this.



What a Troll... and likely lying out their a** for some unknown reason (based on their ridiculous and tangential responses), but I will play the troll game...

1) True - TSing is not for everyone. This is often discussed on TUG. 

2) Not true in the scheme of things.  For example - one person paid $20K and another $1K for the Exact same thing. Therefore, in reality, the person paying $20K did not get what they paid (they paid $19K too much). They got what they deserved by allowing a lying MFer to rip them off, and not doing their proper research.

3) False - Many people buy TSs from eBay and other sources (I have...) that are the exact same thing as buying from the Developer (legally, by Deed). The analogy to buying a 'cheap Chinese knockoff' is incorrect because you are actually buying the same thing - not a knock-off.  My deeded resales are identical to those who bought from the Developer.

4) False - not a minority as one that can easily see by the 10000s here who have bought on the resale market.  No one here is dragging the TS industry through the mud (we love our TSs) - just a**hats like you that will take their mother's last dollar if it meant a commission.

So you are 1 for 4... and your suppositions and intent are highly questionable - which perhaps makes you perfect for your supposed profession (which I doubt as you are too chickensh*t to give any real info - unlike all that responded to your trolling).


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## andex

this was entertainment!!! Well if anybody knows where I can buy 2014 BMW for 1$ I'm in!! I would feel great driving to my 1$ timeshare. Life is Good!!


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