# Deeded or not Deeded



## bevhunter (Jun 12, 2013)

Can someone please tell me that that means, and what is best to buy in the resale market Thanks. Bev...


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## DeniseM (Jun 12, 2013)

You can buy Wyndham points, which allow you to book any where in the Wyndham system, or you can buy deeded weeks for certain resorts.  What is best for you depends on your wants and needs.


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## uscav8r (Jun 12, 2013)

If you are referring specifically to Wyndham, deeded ownership is generally ownership at a specific "home" resort (fixed week or points, also known as Club Wyndham Plus/CWP), whereas non-deeded refers to Club Wyndham Access (or CWA). CWA is essentially a club membership. You do not directly own any of the underlying properties in the program; instead the CWA trust owns the deeds.

The discussion on goods/bads of either option come down to (at a minimum):

1) where do you want/need Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) - this is the ability to make a reservation up to 13 months early, vice at 10 months for everyone else. CWP = ARP only at the home resort. CWA = ARP at many resorts, but with limited inventory (for now).

2) Maintenance Fees (MF) - Deeded/CWP, you are subject to the MF of that one resort. Non-deeded/CWA, you get a blended MF of all the underlying properties. CWA MF are currently about $5.56/1000 points. Some deeded resorts are much lower, some much higher.

3) Special assessment (SA) risk. CWP - low probability of a SA if resort is well-run; but there are places that get hit by hurricanes (or is it "typhoon" in the OP's parlance?) which could result in lots of damage to a resort. If you are lucky and your home resort doesn't get hit by a natural disaster, then no problem. In CWA, special assessments are spread across the dozens of properties in the trust. So while you have a higher chance of a resort in the trust getting hit by a SA, the pain will be much less.

Run searches on the following terms (separately!): ARP, deeded, non-deeded, Club Wyndham Access, "points are points," etc. You will see previous threads in which these issues are covered in depth. You will find there are personal preferences as to which is better for a given situation (or you could get both types like some people do).

For me, I prefer the deeded resorts, but that is only because the CWA inventory has not yet hit a critical mass to be useful for ARP everywhere. That, and my deeded properties have lower MF than CWA. I also have newer resorts, so these SHOULD not have as high a chance for a SA (at least that is my thinking, which could be inaccurate).


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## ttt (Jun 13, 2013)

Most Wyndham ownerships are deeded even if they are points. Some properties are called Right to Use(RTU). These are non deeded ownerships. I believe Wyndham has a program in which ownership is non deeded, but most of their owners own deeded property, either points or fixed/floating weeks.


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## kwindham (Jun 13, 2013)

I have deeded points, and UDI points at two separate "home resorts".  Can someone explain the difference?  I bought both off of ebay with listings as "deeded".  However when my paperwork was completed, one shows UDI.  I use both the same way, I just always wondered what the diff was?


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2013)

kwindham said:


> I have deeded points, and UDI points at two separate "home resorts".  Can someone explain the difference?  I bought both off of ebay with listings as "deeded".  However when my paperwork was completed, one shows UDI.  I use both the same way, I just always wondered what the diff was?



Wyndham has a history. 

They started out as a company called Fairfield, developing timeshare resorts and selling fixed and floating weeks ownerships

Wyndham has also taken over other timeshare systems (Pahio and Equivest)that had been sold as fixed and floating weeks

When Wyndham went to a points program, the unsold weeks that they owned were converted to points, and owners who owned fixed and floating weeks were offered the chance to convert their weeks to points

The newer resorts have been developed as UDI (undivided interest) resorts.  Owners at these resorts have a deed, but the deed is for a fractional interest in many units, rather than a week in one unit. 

Then to confuse things even more, Wyndham created Club Wyndham Access, where the deeds (fixed weeks, floating weeks and udi) are owned by the Club, and we are members of that Club

Always remember your points are "symbolic points" they are a symbol of your ownership interest. and that interest may be UDI, or a fixed week, or a Club membership

So although in their use (at the ten month mark) we might say points are points; how those points came to be can be different. And as a result the maintenance fees and how ARP works differ too


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## kwindham (Jun 13, 2013)

Thanks Ron!  I finally get it!


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## timeos2 (Jun 14, 2013)

uscav8r said:


> For me, I prefer the deeded resorts, but that is only because the CWA inventory has not yet hit a critical mass to be useful for ARP everywhere. That, and my deeded properties have lower MF than CWA. I also have newer resorts, so these SHOULD not have as high a chance for a SA (at least that is my thinking, which could be inaccurate).



Actually the history of Wyndham with newer, initially lower fee, resorts and Special Assessments are not good. In many cases the rates Wyndham charged in those early years (when sales are brisk) are not adequate to keep the resort properly upgraded and maintained (they are not alone on this - MANY developer operated resorts tend to purposely under estimate reserves when resorts are new to help boost sales and profits). Then 8-10 years later when the first real need for total renovations hit they are way short. Boom! Special Assessment!  Many have been multi-year (as in 2-3 years of $400 ea at Kingsgate for example). 

Low fees for newer resorts tend to be attractive but often turn out to be a false savings. The best chance for stable fees and no SA's are the resorts that have had special assessments, have started properly collecting for the future and are currently in top notch shape. Kingsgate again fits that mold as the fees since the 3 year SA have been relatively flat, below average and the reserve funds are well funded now. 

Quite a few Developers have gone to the "blended" systems of RTU /Trusts - or CWA for Wyndham - but I've never seen one where the fees are lower than the deeded resorts from the same group are. The overhead collected by the Management, the probability of SA's at one or more of the resorts in the group (despite the more spread out nature of the fees) tends to eat up any potential savings and more.


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## Lisa P (Jun 14, 2013)

Right-To-Use (RTU) includes an end date or expiration date for the RTU contract.  RTU contracts are sometimes called a "lease", "leasehold" or even "deeded leasehold" - complicating people's understanding that they are not truly deeded to permanent ownership.  Some RTU contracts are short term, such as in Mexico where they may be as short as 15 years.  Others are so long term that they act more like a deed, 50, 75 or even 99 years.

Wyndham has not sold a whole lot of RTU contracts.  The vast majority of Wyndham ownerships are actually deeded ownerships in real estate terms.  Many at their older resorts or resorts purchased from other developers, are fixed/floating weeks, some of which have been converted to Wyndham points but still retain their underlying deed.  Others, especially at their newer resorts, are in UDI points, well-described above.  Wyndham has offered RTU contracts though they have not proven as popular.  But they are out there.

If you, like us, prefer only a deeded ownership, then make sure the contract(s) you buy is/are deeded, during your due diligence research.  It may or may not matter to you.  But if you're considering RTU, just make sure that the end/expiration date suits you.  HTH!


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## Explorer7 (Jun 14, 2013)

Though I presently own UDI and converted fixed weeks I have come to believe that when it's time to get out of the timeshare world that CWA may prove to be a much simpler process under most circumstances, even in the case of default.


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## timeos2 (Jun 14, 2013)

Explorer7 said:


> Though I presently own UDI and converted fixed weeks I have come to believe that when it's time to get out of the timeshare world that CWA may prove to be a much simpler process under most circumstances, even in the case of default.



How often will the RTU end date exactly line up with your desired exit? Although it MAY be easier to dump RTU back to the developer than a deed is the contract wording may be nearly as onerous and binding for the RTU as is the deeded ownership. 

The real answer is a robust marketplace for all resales. That will mean that an exit is as assured and easy as the buy in.  Nearly everyone involved in timeshare - except, inexplicably many (most?) Developers - want to see a vibrant and active resale market. It helps the whole industry.  The only ones possibly hurt are the Developers who insist on markups of 200-500% over true market value. That unfair practice is exposed by resales and helps explain why so many Developers fight the very thought of resales.


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