# HGVC - changes for resale buyers?



## MadDawg (May 6, 2008)

We're at the Seaworld location now and just got back from the 'upgrade pitch'.  At first I wasn't overly happy about being approached with the pitch, but my wife wanted to dinner tickets so off we went....

Our sales rep informed us that Hilton's new managment was looking heavily at changing the program for all accounts purchased resale.  In essence they would be time share only.  All other 'features' such as Honors conversion and RCI privs would be only for those people who purchased through Hilton.

I'm not saying I'm buying the chance, but an interesting push to 'upgrade' into their new 14,000 pt Hawaii package for ~$40K.

It also seems the 'freeze these prices and get 5K bonus point' offer has gone from $1,500 to $1,750.

I'll probably write a sep review of the property in another thread, but if you plan on traveling to this location, stay away from the Tucker building.  It faces the main street and sounds like your in a Motel 6 by the interstate all night long.  Really poor.


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## hicksville (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the post.  I hope my resale purchase closes in the next few weeks and that if they make changes, we get grandfathered in!


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## ricoba (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the update.

It will be interesting to see what the new owners have up their sleeves for HGVC.  If what you say comes true, it will really be a big change in the way Hilton has dealt with resale purchaser's.


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## joegish (May 6, 2008)

This whole Elite Status thing really bothers me.  I have 28k HGVC pts - all purchased as resales.  I really, really do not understand why the HGVC discriminates against resale owners.  With the ROFR, I would think it good business to keep the value of resales high.  HGVC management is ignorant if they don't think at least some portion of their prospective buyers do their homework and see the deep discount resales offer.  They probably suffer from a lot of offer rescinds as well as high levels of buyers remorse.  

FYI, after speaking with HGVC Management on this issue, I was told that ALL resales are discouraged by HGVC.  There are no "Authorized Resellers", contrary to certain eBay sellers' claims.


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## Bill4728 (May 6, 2008)

maddog said:
			
		

> Our sales rep informed us that Hilton's new managment was looking heavily at changing the program for all accounts purchased resale. In essence they would be time share only. All other 'features' such as Honors conversion and RCI privs would be only for those people who purchased through Hilton.



I sure hope this isn't true. One of the best things about HGVC was how well they treated their resale buyers.  

Also, HGVC can't take away your ability to trade with RCI.  If you own a TS and the resort is affiliated with RCI, you as a owner must be able to trade with RCI. What they can do is make you reserve a week then deposit your week seperately from HGVC. 



PS I'm changing the title of this thread to reflect the changes for resale buyers.


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## ricoba (May 6, 2008)

joegish said:


> This whole Elite Status thing really bothers me.



Even though I can understand your frustration that you can't get "Elite" status with your amount of points, it's been discussed here more than once and the general feeling is that it's probably not as great a perk as HGVC wants you to believe.



joegish said:


> FYI, after speaking with HGVC Management on this issue, I was told that ALL resales are discouraged by HGVC.  There are no "Authorized Resellers", contrary to certain eBay sellers' claims.



I am sure you are talking about Judy K.  & Seth Nock, both who are respected here on TUG.  But don't you think that HGVC would take legal action against them if they were using the term "Authorized" and they are not authorized?


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## OnMedic (May 6, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> I sure hope this isn't true. One of the best things about HGVC was how well they treated their resale buyers.
> 
> Also, HGVC can't take away your ability to trade with RCI.  If you own a TS and the resort is affiliated with RCI, you as a owner must be able to trade with RCI. What they can do is make you reserve a week then deposit your week seperately from HGVC.
> 
> ...



isn't rci part of the annual club due anyways?


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## jerseygirl (May 6, 2008)

OnMedic said:


> isn't rci part of the annual club due anyways?




Yes, but if they don't let you join the club, you wouldn't get a "free RCI" account and would have to open your own, right?

I hope they don't do this ... I'm not in the market for another unit right now but it move them from "good developer" (e.g. Hyatt) to "bad developer" (e.g.  Starwood) in my eyes!


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## mtgolfer (May 6, 2008)

Sounds like a sales pitch to me.  I went through a presentation in Vegas no more than a month ago and nothing was said regarding the new ownership and future plans.  I would hope that new management would think long and hard before making any such radical changes.  In regard to authorized resellers, I have spoken directly to Jan Anderson, HGVC Resale Director when working on a purchase through Seth and every indication I got from her would most certainly lead a person to believe that he is an "authorized reseller" and respected within the resell division.

bp


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## Bill4728 (May 6, 2008)

ricoba said:
			
		

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by joegish
> > FYI, after speaking with HGVC Management on this issue, I was told that ALL resales are discouraged by HGVC. There are no "Authorized Resellers", contrary to certain eBay sellers' claims.
> 
> ...



There use to be an "Authorized Resellers" a couple years ago but she ( can't remember her name) said that she was no longer a HGVC "Authorized Resellers"   I think Seth & Judy K are respected reseller of many companies TS but no longer "Authorized Resellers" of HGVC.
Several years ago, a TS reseller, Joann Peters, used to advertise that she could sell you a HGVC ts which got all the benifits of buying direct from HGVC including elite. I thought that was being an "Authorized Resellers of HGVC". I'm now told that was something else. 

PS Joann relationship with HGVC has changed and she can't do that anymore.


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## Talent312 (May 6, 2008)

Then they'll need two versions of the member's guide:
(a) retail buyers will get the one with the glossy pages and pretty pix; 
(b) resale buyers will get a two page greyscale xerox.

Take this with a grain of salt, folks.  Consider the source:  A T/S salesman.


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## ricoba (May 7, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> There use to be an "Authorized Resellers" a couple years ago but she ( can't remember her name) said that HGVC stopped "Authorized Resellers"   I think Seth & Judy K are respected reseller of many companies TS but no longer "Authorized Resellers" of HGVC.



I was ready to admit I may be wrong, (because my memory fails too much any more   ) so I just went over to ebay and there are Judy's ads listed under Hiltonresales, Authorized Hilton Reseller.???   

So what gives?


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## Bill4728 (May 7, 2008)

ricoba said:


> I was ready to admit I may be wrong, (because my memory fails too much any more   ) so I just went over to ebay and there are Judy's ads listed under Hiltonresales, Authorized Hilton Reseller.???
> 
> So what gives?



I'd bet that Seth will let us know.


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## PigsDad (May 7, 2008)

mtgolfer said:


> Sounds like a sales pitch to me.


I tend to agree.  On my first Hilton sales presentation about two years ago, the salesperson told us that resale buyers were:

not able to convert to to HHonors points
not able to make RCI reservations through the Club
routed to different customer service reps on the phone, and would receive a lower level of service
I think she even mentioned that resale buyers were given lower priority when making club reservations.

All outright lies.  Considering the source, I would treat what the OP was told as an unfounded rumor, nothing more.

Kurt


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## tk1780 (May 7, 2008)

Hhhmmmm

Pay an extra $15,000 thru developer to get Hilton Honors conversion and better "service".

Not a tough decision to me.  While those may be worth something, it isn't close to $15k to me...


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## joegish (May 7, 2008)

Actually, my discussion was not with a sales rep, but with Brad Rex, Chief Customer Officer with HGVC.  He clearly stated that ALL resales are discouraged and not authorized by HGVC unless sold through HGVC.  

I was shocked (and a bit upset).

Net, HGVC views resale buyers as 2nd rate and I think there are some decisions being made at HGVC that reflect these thoughts

From a legal perspective, I do not understand how special booking and other privileges for my properties can be granted to new buyers and not me (us).  It is just not right.

I do not really care about the Elite Privileges, I care about being able to book where I want, when I want without other people having advantages over me that did not exist when I bought my units.


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## Aptman (May 7, 2008)

The problem Hilton will face if they diminish the ability to buy resale is that they also diminish the value of the retail product at that point.  One of the points they have to be making is that you can sell this anytime you want, and they hold their value (in large part due to their ROFR).

If Hilton starts screwing with buyers on the secondary market, then they also screw with sellers on the secondary market, a large portion of whom were buyers from the developer.  Obviously, these buyers get screwed and have less information when they buy Hilton direct (as evidenced by the near universal refrain I see on these boards whenever someone posts a question prefaced with "I just bought from HGVC:"  RESCIND!), on the other hand, one of the allures of buying is that Hilton portrays this as an investment that grows in value because it can be sold, and they talk about the things they do to keep it's value up.

Unless Hilton wants to lower their ROFR price, or they want to start buying up much larger number of resales that don't meet the ROFR price, I can't imagine they will do something that will so damage the product.

When it comes down to it, internet or no internet, there are always going to be impulsive people who will plunk down that huge chunk of change on the spur of the moment at these spots while they're on vacation.  When I was obsessing over these boards considering buying, and talking about the issues with a couple of other co-workers (to the point that everyone else was sick of the discussion), another co-worker who sat right here and heard the whole discussion went out and spent $15k directly from Shell after a presentation - despite knowing that I had been actively seeking and bidding on resale timeshares at a much lower cost.  Those of us who do our research, get to know the ins and outs, and come prepared to these presentations are still few and far between.  I wouldn't look for the sky to be falling yet.


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## Bill4728 (May 7, 2008)

joegish said:


> Net, HGVC views resale buyers as 2nd rate and I think there are some decisions being made at HGVC that reflect these thoughts
> 
> From a legal perspective, I do not understand how special booking and other privileges for my properties can be granted to new buyers and not me (us).  It is just not right.
> 
> I do not really care about the Elite Privileges, I care about being able to book where I want, when I want without other people having advantages over me that did not exist when I bought my units.



IMHO, HGVC could do most of this legally.  It is basically what Starwood does. If you buy from the developer you get into the starwood Vacation network (SVN) and can use your week to get points for use making reservations at other Starwood resorts.  If you buy resale, you get only your week, at your resort. And do not get any access to SVN. So no internal trading. 

So, If HGVC wanted to, it is possible that they could take away the HGVC internal trading options and that would kill almost all HGVC resales.


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## joegish (May 7, 2008)

I happen to agree with Aptman - if it was my business, I'd want to keep up the value of the resales.  In the long run, high resale value = a strong HGVC.

For a good example of this - check out the Disney Vacation Club.  Although I do not recommend this program (even though I own a unit), the resale value of my property has INCREASED more than 25% since I bought it from Disney.  Go figure.


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## UWSurfer (May 7, 2008)

PigsDad said:


> I tend to agree.  On my first Hilton sales presentation about two years ago, the salesperson told us that resale buyers were:
> 
> not able to convert to to HHonors points
> not able to make RCI reservations through the Club
> ...




Resale buyers also get picked on by owners who purchase developer weeks...

Resale buyers and have their lunch money taken by bullies...

Resale buyers get cut on in-line at the gifting desk...

Resale buyers get lousy parking spaces at the resorts...

Resale buyers should just keep laughing their butt's off at all the $$ they've kept.  

Actually, most of the owners I've run into at resorts have never heard of a resale market and had no idea.


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## joegish (May 7, 2008)

UWSurfer - 

It just does not sit well with me that Elite members have a 12 month reservation lead time and also unit upgrade privileges at my properties.  That is unfair.  It is essentially a decrease in value of my points.


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## Zac495 (May 7, 2008)

mtgolfer said:


> Sounds like a sales pitch to me.  I went through a presentation in Vegas no more than a month ago and nothing was said regarding the new ownership and future plans.  I would hope that new management would think long and hard before making any such radical changes.  In regard to authorized resellers, I have spoken directly to Jan Anderson, HGVC Resale Director when working on a purchase through Seth and every indication I got from her would most certainly lead a person to believe that he is an "authorized reseller" and respected within the resell division.
> 
> bp



Same with me - salespitch in Vegas. Nothing negative about resale - they did try to convince me to upgrade, saying they'd give me full retail value of my property. Of course I didn't bite.


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## Zac495 (May 7, 2008)

PigsDad said:


> I tend to agree.  On my first Hilton sales presentation about two years ago, the salesperson told us that resale buyers were:
> 
> not able to convert to to HHonors points
> not able to make RCI reservations through the Club
> ...




Marriott salespeople say the same nonsense. :annoyed:


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## UWSurfer (May 7, 2008)

Admittedly if I owned 28,000 HGVC points I'd likely want to be elite as well!

Let's look at it from a different angle...you likely saved well more than $50K purchasing those points resale.  I bet that those who've spent far more for far fewer points through the developer would feel it's not fair you got what you did for the price you paid!

You still have the ability to book your home resort weeks at 12 months out.  I suppose you could sell your resale weeks and pickup "new" weeks from the developer to reach elite.  Frankly I'll take $50K any day of the week over unit upgrade privileges.


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## Seth Nock (May 7, 2008)

MadDawg said:


> We're at the Seaworld location now and just got back from the 'upgrade pitch'.  At first I wasn't overly happy about being approached with the pitch, but my wife wanted to dinner tickets so off we went....
> 
> Our sales rep informed us that Hilton's new managment was looking heavily at changing the program for all accounts purchased resale.  In essence they would be time share only.  All other 'features' such as Honors conversion and RCI privs would be only for those people who purchased through Hilton.
> 
> ...



This is a total lie!  Don't believe the sales agent!!!!!  If you email me his name, I will forward it to Hilton management and he will be reprimanded and/or fired!  Hilton is a great program.  The timeshare division is one of their most profitable divisions of the company.  There will be no changes made to hurt that income source.  Kim Kreiger, the Vice President in charge does everything possible to help ALL owners!


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## joegish (May 7, 2008)

UWSurfer -

I can't disagree with your logic and saving the big $ is why I bought resale.  IMO, HGVC resale is still the best timeshare program. 

I'd actually like to get more points, (I use the points for both personal and business trips) but am now somewhat hesitant now that I understand how much HGVC management does not like resales.

It would be interesting to hear from Seth what he thinks about being a reseller and how HGVC management treats him?


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## Seth Nock (May 7, 2008)

joegish said:


> UWSurfer -
> 
> I can't disagree with your logic and saving the big $ is why I bought resale.  IMO, HGVC resale is still the best timeshare program.
> 
> ...



I actually posted, but it got intertwined in the thread.  It is a total lie!  If the agent's name is forwarded to me, I will make sure it gets to the proper person in Hilton so he can be reprimanded.


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## joegish (May 8, 2008)

Seth -

What is a total lie?  I got the info. directly from senior HGVC management.

Thx.


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## Bourne (May 8, 2008)

Seth is correct. 

Every once in a while this issue raises it's ugly head only to be resolved as one salesperson's / manager's personal opinion. 

I had owned HGVC for 8 years before liquidating all 14K points this year. This issue had come up atleast twice during my ownership.


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## joegish (May 8, 2008)

Perhaps I do not understand exactly what Seth thinks is a total lie???  Are you saying that HGVC does support and authorize resellers? 

Hmmm....  so let me get this straight.  The current Chief Customer Officer of HGVC is not telling the truth and you guys happen to know more about HGVC policy towards resellers than he does.  Somebody is clearly wrong here. 

I did not get this info. through some lowly sales rep or second hand.  I was told directly (first hand, live conversation) that all resales are highly discouraged by HGVC, HGVC does not work with nor trust resellers, and only HGVC is approved to resell their ownership units.  Net, buying on the resale market is severely frowned upon.

This is exactly the opposite way I would run things as it suppresses the resale value (makes for good deals though, huh?) and eventually has to come back and bite HGVC in the arse.

I would believe that, at least empirically speaking, the new HGVC Elite Program supports what I was told.

I am not saying any specific reseller (Seth in particular) is not straight forward and honest.  The many messages on TUG would indicate exactly the opposite.  I have personally had good experiences doing this 4x with HGVC resales.

Just that HGVC is greedy and short-term oriented and should be supporting rather than opposing the resellers (which at least 1 very senior manager clearly stated is policy).  

Sorry for the rambling post.


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## MadDawg (May 9, 2008)

Sorry not to follow up on this, we've been tied up in Disney the last few days and have had a bit of a family emergancy come up that will be sending us home early tomorrow.  Hilton was kind enough to credit the one day's points back to us.

What the guy said was management was 'heavily considering the ability' to do that stuff.  When I asked how they could go back and do that to existing members he basically said the terms are changeable at any time.

Seth, I'll PM you the spotty information I can remember at this point.  He was rather put out that we were resellers.  Don't get me wrong, I went into it knowing it was going to be a pitch to upgrade to their new property, but he basically said that wasn't really possible as Hilton would be giving us more credit than we had spent.  What I didn't understand was who cares who currently owns the property, the first owners had to pay full price from Hilton at some point....

The guy at the desk told me repeatedly (Craig) this wasn't a sales pitch and just an oppertunity to ask questions and find out if there was anything more they could do for us as owners.  (Yea like I said, I didn't belive it either as this oppertunity came with either discount park tickets or dinner tickets).

Our sales rep really didn't want to answer any of my questions.  I just wanted to know how the new ownership was going to effect the Club and what was going on with the NY property as when we got our first pitch it was going to be a regular HGVC property just like all the rest, now I'm not sure.

But folks, like I said in my first post... I didn't really believe the guy so much.  I really got the feeling he was put out that we were resellers, he was wasting his time, and was making jabs at us.  He flat out told us how much they hated resellers there.

I suppose they just don't care for folks that aren't ready to make several thousand dollar decisions on the spur of the moment....

I gotta tell ya though, having a room beside the fire station... priceless.

:annoyed:


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## Seth Nock (May 9, 2008)

joegish said:


> Perhaps I do not understand exactly what Seth thinks is a total lie???  Are you saying that HGVC does support and authorize resellers?
> 
> Hmmm....  so let me get this straight.  The current Chief Customer Officer of HGVC is not telling the truth and you guys happen to know more about HGVC policy towards resellers than he does.  Somebody is clearly wrong here.
> 
> ...



Hilton has a department that specializes in resales.  There are 4 people who work on the developer property end and about 10 people who work on the affiliate resale end.  There are about 10 brokerage companies that are authorized resale companies.  There are no plans to eliminate the ability to have resale buyers be allowed to trade.  Resale owner units cannot be stripped of rights.  Hilton does not intend to do that because as resale prices fall, rescission rates go up.


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## joegish (May 9, 2008)

Seth, I understand that HGVC provides resale support.  That was never a question.  The fact is they do not want you around and claim that resellers are not approved or encouraged in any way.  Resellers are reluctantly tolerated.  The fact that there are 10 or so resellers that are tolerated does not mean they are supported and encouraged to conduct their business.  I would challenge you to prove otherwise.

My original reason for jumping into this discussion was your point about resale owners not being stripped of rights.  Similarly, I would not think that rights can be granted to HGVC direct purchased units unless specified in the original sales contract from the developer.  

That's really why is it wrong to me that HGVC instituted an Elite program that does not provide similar rights to resale purchasers.  

If the Elite rights only applied to units purchased after the program was instituted, then so be it.  I am under the impression that "Elite" provides certain booking, discount, upgrade, and other rights that can be used to book units that were sold as resales.  

Net, defacto something has not been taken away from us, but something has been added to others that dimishes our value.  It is not right.

For example, if owners of the upcoming 57th St. NYC property were given a 50% point booking discount at all LV properties, it would probably upset a lot of people.  Nothing would have been taken away from the LV owners, but something would have been added to increase the value of other units at the LV Owners' expense.

Sorry for venting.  I still feel HGVC discriminates against resale buyers.  High up HGVC management clearly does not like resellers regardless of the resale support HGVC may provide.  Despite the use of your terminology "Authorized Reseller", they do not like you and your kind and would like to figure out how to stop your activities.  I know this as fact.  I wish it was not so.


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## bluemax (May 9, 2008)

This is making my head spin - is there a truth detector we can attach to this site?

It makes no sense that Hilton (Blackstone) would alienate their clientele by backdating policy changes that would reduce access to properties simply because someone was smart enough to buy resell.  This is a capitalistic system and resell are allowed by the free market system that Hilton supports through the FROR terms.  

Keep in mind the current economic conditions:  $125BBL Oil, $4.00 gal gas, increased foreclosures, looming recession, higher unemployment, lower available capital, increased construction costs, political uncertainity (capital gains and corporate taxes at risk), etc. 

Why would Hilton restrain free trade at a time like this - they are likely struggling to sale current inventory and trying to pay for those very expensive building projects - Hawaii, New York, Bermuda, etc.


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## joegish (May 10, 2008)

Seth and others want it to be confusing.  They make claims of being "authorized" to imply "approved" and "supported" when it is not true.


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## Tabascoone (May 10, 2008)

joegish said:


> Seth and others want it to be confusing.  They make claims of being "authorized" to imply "approved" and "supported" when it is not true.



Joegish, what is it with all the negativity? seems every single post you have made has a negative undertone, you have a beef because Hilton does not treat resale buyers the same as a direct buyers, when we all know the only difference is the elite status, seems everyone is fine with that policy except you, and you probably knew that when you bought in, but here you are complaining about it.  And then you make a big deal about authorized / unauthorized resellers, So what?  Seth has an excellent reputation on the boards and seems many resell buyers are happy with his services. So he calls himself an authorizer reseller and you are trying to refute that, bottom line is that his actions speak louder that anything you may have been told,   leave it alone would you? and by the way I did not purchase from Seth but I have noticed he has been always been there to provide helpful AND POSITIVE assistance, I'll take his advice anytime authorized or not. (and go ahead let me have some of your negativity, you have made it clear you are the type you have to have the last say, which fine with me I already said what I wanted to say.)


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## bevans (May 10, 2008)

What joegish said. Curt


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## Steve (May 10, 2008)

*Let's get back on track...*

This is starting to get personal, and it is also somewhat less than courteous.  I'd like to remind everyone to abide by the TUG posting rules.

Steve
Tug Moderator


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## Blues (May 10, 2008)

bluemax said:


> This is making my head spin - is there a truth detector we can attach to this site?



The following does it just fine for me.  It makes clear that joegish has quite an ax to grind.



joegish said:


> Seth and others want it to be confusing.  They make claims of being "authorized" to imply "approved" and "supported" when it is not true.



I have to agree with Tabascoone.  Well said.


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## joegish (May 10, 2008)

No ax to grind with Seth.  Just irritated that HGVC minimally supports the resale market and wants it to go away.

BTW, I confirmed what I said before, there are no "Authorized" resellers, other than HGVC themselves.

If Seth thinks he's authorized and you want to believe him, go for it.  You might want to personally check with HGVC first before you decide where the truth lies.


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## Seth Nock (May 10, 2008)

joegish said:


> No ax to grind with Seth.  Just irritated that HGVC minimally supports the resale market and wants it to go away.
> 
> BTW, I confirmed what I said before, there are no "Authorized" resellers, other than HGVC themselves.
> 
> If Seth thinks he's authorized and you want to believe him, go for it.  You might want to personally check with HGVC first before you decide where the truth lies.



Hi Joegish,
     I am a Hilton Authorized Resales Broker.  They receive a commission on EVERY unit that I sell that I do not own, regardless of whether they supply the seller to me, I supply the seller or another broker supplies the seller. Personally, I don't think it matters whether you use an Authorized broker or not as long as you use a licensed, bonded and competent escrow company. Who did you confirm that there were no authorized resellers with?  If they want to give to me the 10s of thousands in commission checks that were sent to Hilton last year from my deals from my company, I would be happy to relinquish that title.
     Hilton provides major support to the resale market.  They take listings, email me, and the other authorized resellers updated listings almost every week in an excel spreadsheet and emails us whenever they get a listing below market.  Typically, 1 of us has a buyer for that unit within hours.  What additional support would you like them to provide?  Hilton's resale department is responsible for about 10 million dollars worth of sales per year.  I think that is pretty respectable.


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## Seth Nock (May 11, 2008)

joegish said:


> My original reason for jumping into this discussion was your point about resale owners not being stripped of rights.  Similarly, I would not think that rights can be granted to HGVC direct purchased units unless specified in the original sales contract from the developer.
> 
> That's really why is it wrong to me that HGVC instituted an Elite program that does not provide similar rights to resale purchasers.
> 
> If the Elite rights only applied to units purchased after the program was instituted, then so be it.  I am under the impression that "Elite" provides certain booking, discount, upgrade, and other rights that can be used to book units that were sold as resales.



The way the HGVC Club was set up, it states that 30 days prior to check in, all points are owned by Hilton Club.  This allows open season, and the proceeds to go back to Hilton Club.  This also allows them to charge whatever figure they want for those points (less for elite members).  HGVC also allows ALL owners to convert their HGVC timeshare points into HHonors points.  This inventory is then owned by Hilton, allowing them to use it for tour promos, rentals or however they see fit (They bought that inventorry with HHonors points).  Regarding the 1 property HGVC allows people to book 12 months in advance, rather than 9 months in advance, that is one of the newest properties where the developer has a ton of unsold inventory (they own the inventory).  This year, it is the HGVC on the Las Vegas Strip.  There is no need to book that property 9 months in advance, let alone 12 months in advance.  I hope this explains how Hilton has the right to add the Elite Status.  I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is why it is permitted.


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## CaliDave (May 11, 2008)

I think of all the major developers , Hilton treats the resell buyers better than any others. 

I'm not sure why the negativity against what Seth tells you. I have known him for years from this site and now personally. I have never found him to be anything but truthful and helpful.  
Maybe you should be around this site more than a month before you start questioning someones integrity. Read his 400 posts and see what lies he has told. And have a name and a contact to back it up. Not just "I talked to a guy with "HGVC". 

I have bought HGVC from Seth and from other private sellers. My recent resales from Seth go through HGVC for closing. In the past it wasn't true, before he became a HGVC authorized reseller.

Seth has spent more time with HGVCs VP's and upper management ,than most Hilton employees. 

I placed an ebay ad to sell an HGVC one time and used a logo from the HGVC site.. I was contacted by the legal department. You really think Seth could claim to be an authorized reseller without being sued?


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## Talent312 (May 11, 2008)

I think that it bears remembering that those of us who bought resale did not receive any promises or representations from HGVC regarding their program.  We received a deed from someone other than HGVC.  So, in a sense, HGVC "owes" us nothing except the unit/week we purchased.

However, by accepting our membership dues, sending us Guides and allowing us to make use of their program, current owners have an excellent estoppel and detrimental reliance argument against any cut-off.  So, I'd say all present resale members are safe.

I'm not surprised that their sales people have discussed or even sought to limit "services" for owners who buy resale in the future, but future buyers may be protected as a result of representations made to owners that their "membership" could be sold to others, subject only to the ROFR.  What would surprise me is if their legal counsel did not advise them of their potential legal liabilities if they attempted to impair their owners resale options.


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## BocaBum99 (May 11, 2008)

joegish said:


> Seth and others want it to be confusing.  They make claims of being "authorized" to imply "approved" and "supported" when it is not true.



You have 10 posts on this site and you come here to claim Seth wants it to be confusing?  Perhaps you should read a bit more and learn about who you are panning before you attack their impeccable reputations.  You clearly know nothing about Seth Nock.  

In the industry, HGVC has one of the best reputations for supporting resale customers and resellers.  They actually have authorized resellers and Seth is one of them.

Until you have a more established identity, I'll just ignore what you have to say and listen to the person who has forgotten more about HGVC and how it works than you will ever know.


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## BocaBum99 (May 11, 2008)

joegish said:


> Hmmm....  so let me get this straight.  The current Chief Customer Officer of HGVC is not telling the truth and you guys happen to know more about HGVC policy towards resellers than he does.  Somebody is clearly wrong here.



No, we are not saying that at all.  What we are saying is that we do not know who YOU are.  We do NOT believe what YOU have to say.  We believe you were speaking to a sales rep who gave you a line of BULL and you believed it.  Then, you come to this site, do not take the time to figure out who you are talking about, pan the reputation of someone who is very highly regarded by members of this site and you make unverified remarks we know to be false as if the words were the gospel according to Luke.

All you have done is completely discredit your knowledge about HGVC and you did it in world record time.  Congratulations.


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## wmmmmm (May 12, 2008)

"Authorized HGVC reseller" probably existed since the beginning of time!  When I purchased my HGVC resale back in 2002, I received Hilton Honor points!  It was the same number of points as I received when I purchased my first HGVC directly from Hilton.  I still haven't figured out how that worked but I spent eight fantastic nights at Hilton Waikoloa because of that!  So I have no doubt that if Seth say he's an authorized reseller, he is.  I'm certain that if he isn't, Hilton would have made him stop long ago.

As for whether Hilton wants to get rid of resellers.  That's just business.  So what else is new.


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## MLC (May 12, 2008)

Seth Nock said:


> Hi Joegish,
> I am a Hilton Authorized Resales Broker.  They receive a commission on EVERY unit that I sell that I do not own, regardless of whether they supply the seller to me, I supply the seller or another broker supplies the seller. Personally, I don't think it matters whether you use an Authorized broker or not as long as you use a licensed, bonded and competent escrow company. Who did you confirm that there were no authorized resellers with?  If they want to give to me the 10s of thousands in commission checks that were sent to Hilton last year from my deals from my company, I would be happy to relinquish that title.
> Hilton provides major support to the resale market.  They take listings, email me, and the other authorized resellers updated listings almost every week in an excel spreadsheet and emails us whenever they get a listing below market.  Typically, 1 of us has a buyer for that unit within hours.  What additional support would you like them to provide?  Hilton's resale department is responsible for about 10 million dollars worth of sales per year.  I think that is pretty respectable.




I have bought many Hilton timeshares from Seth.  He is very trust worthy and knows more about Hilton than any person I know.  Seth is in a league of his own with respect to Hilton.  I have never had any wrong information from Seth.  I have received wrong information directly from Hilton and Seth corrected it.  I would not hesitate at all in buying another Hilton from Seth.

I hope this helps in understanding that Seth knows what he is talking about.

Marty


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## joegish (May 13, 2008)

Fine.  I capitulate.  Seth is HGVC all-knowing, and Brad Rex knows nothing.


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## DEROS (May 13, 2008)

joegish said:


> Seth -
> 
> What is a total lie?  I got the info. directly from senior HGVC management.
> 
> Thx.



Is the name of the Senior HGVC Management: Brad Rex?  I would like to talk / email him to see who is correct.

Thanks


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## Talent312 (May 13, 2008)

DEROS said:


> Is the name of the Senior HGVC Management: Brad Rex?  I would like to talk / email him to see who is correct.



From www.linkedin.com/pub/6/a83/b59 

*BRAD REX*
Location & Industry:
• Orlando, Florida Area
• Hospitality

Current: Executive VP, Chief Customer Officer, Hilton Grand Vacations 
Past: Vice President, Epcot at Walt Disney World Company (2001 - 2007)

Education:
Harvard Business School (1986 - 1988) 
United States Naval Academy (1977 - 1981), BS, Engineering, Economics


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## Bill4728 (May 13, 2008)

joegish said:


> Fine.  I capitulate.  Seth is HGVC all-knowing, and Brad Rex knows nothing.



Joe,

I'm sorry we have been so tough on you.

It just that Seth is very connected to HGVC and they just will not lie to him. But anyone at HGVC ( including Senior HGVC Management) maybe willing to "strech the truth" to someone off the street.  

It like when HGVC is asked about ROFR.  Their story is they use ROFR to keep resale price very close to the asking prices at their resorts. Will it's true they do use ROFR and do keep the resale price up. BUT the resale prices tend to be about 1/2 to 1/3 the HGVC asking price. So are they telling a lie? No but they sure made you believe that the resale price was alot closer to their price than it really is.


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## joegish (May 13, 2008)

Bill - 

No sweat.  I can take a beating.  I'm just searching for the truth.  

When Seth elevated the discussion and boldly stated that my point was a lie, I admit I was somewhat offended (even though I was just repeating what I was told and I know he was not personally calling me a liar).

Given the respect Seth comands, he is obviously a straight shooter and undoubtedly a great guy. 

I just know what I was told.  Given that it came straight from the HGVC Chief Customer Officer, and that he is a USNA alumni, I had to believe he was not lying to me.  

I'm done beating this dead horse.  

Sorry for offending anybody.   That was definitely not my intent.  Honestly, I do not want to be right as I've only purchased aftermarket units.  I was just trying to share what I was told from someone I deemed highly trustworthy (and no BocaBum, it was not from some low-level salesman trying to make a buck.  But thank you for your constructive and helpful comments).


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## Sandy VDH (May 13, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> Several years ago, a TS reseller, Joann Peters, used to advertise that she could sell you a HGVC ts which got all the benifits of buying direct from HGVC including elite. I thought that was being an "Authorized Resellers of HGVC". I'm now told that was something else.
> 
> PS Joann relationship with HGVC has changed and she can't do that anymore.



I did purchase resale from Joann and also did get ELITE status as part of the sale.  Now they won't allow it, but I did get it when I purchased resale.


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## dabtpa (May 14, 2008)

I would like to weigh in on this discussion, not knowing any of the posters except Seth personally and Judi Kozlowski. Having purchased my first timeshare in 1976 and worked for both Marriott Vacation Club and HGVC, I can tell you that there are authorized HGVC agents and they both are. Additionally, I can tell you that you will not meet two finer individuals in the timeshare world. Knowledgable, courteous, thorough and downright great people.


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## MadDawg (May 14, 2008)

I aplogize for opening this can of worms.  It was never my intent.  I was only trying to get some answers to what possibly Blackstone had in store for the club.  I felt the sales guy was just feeding me a line, but because this is new territory for my wife and I and it's a new company taking over one never knows so I thought I'd inform the folks here.

We purchased our unit through Seth.  He followed through on everything he said he'd do.  I'll have to admit, it's hard to get someone's name off a forum then do several thousand dollars worth of business with them without ever meeting, but I will verify that he is 100% above board and, we did check him out with the HGVC staff before our purchase.

Again, I'm sorry that this became what it did...


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## Seth Nock (May 18, 2008)

Joe,
    I want to apologize for my comment.  When I was referring to the lie, I was talking about the sales person's comment.  You did speak to one of the top people in the company, but he is new there.  At his level, I am surprised that he agreed to talk with you.  Since he is new, he may not have been aware of authorized agents and Hilton's resale department.  I am hoping this has been corrected. I have not been made aware of any intension to change the HGVC program for resales, and would be surprised if any changes are made.  However, if any changes are ever made in the future, I am sure all current owners will be grandfathered in.


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## GTLINZ (May 18, 2008)

Wow. I was following this thread a week ago but was away at the Tuscany property last week, which was a wonderful time. It got a little dicey, but any words said here do not rival the Hyatt board. It is not worth asking questions over there (just considering - only own HGVC right now).
I bought resale 3 years ago from Joanne Peters and have loved being part of HGVC. I was talked into a visit to Tuscany thru HHonors (we swore we would never be told where we were going every year for a week). I kept my head during the presentation but really wanted to be a part of this. I came home,  did internet research (I found Tug) and was (and still am) convinced this is the best program and quickly bought resale.
Here are my opinions. Feel free to fire away.
1) Seems I remember that Hilton can change the rules as they want. I really bought what my title says, and buying into this system is a calculated risk like anything else. But changing the game now would not be in Hilton's best interest, IMHO.
2) Developer sales people hate resellers, because resale is a much better value. Don't be surprised at what you hear from them.
3) There are some advantages to buying from the developer (Elite), but most tuggers would tell you it is not worth the difference. It is in Hilton's best interest to add more value to developer purchases, and I would not be surprised to see more "carrots" added to make developer purchases look better. Unless they change the core rules, my response is YAWN.
Enjoy being part of the best timeshare program around ! If Hilton would build in more locations, I would never look elsewhere....


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## joegish (May 19, 2008)

Seth - 

No problem.  Like I said, I just know what I was told and incorrectly assumed a very senior HGVC manager would know what he was talking about.  

Regards.

Joe G.


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