# The Lost Benefit



## cbdmvci (Oct 12, 2010)

The next time someone goes to a Destination Club Points presentation, please raise this simple concern with the sales manager:

As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."

And, I think, that is one benefit that has proven to be fair and accurate.  Buying a comparable vacation to those I can get with my timeshare properties would cost many hundreds of dollars per night today.  My MF's are earned back in the first 2 or 3 days of the week.  The next four days were paid for in 1998.

But, if in the Destination Club Program, the cost in points for a night is not fixed, but adjustable entirely at MVCI's discretion, than that, the most important benefit, is lost.

I guess MVCI'S response may be: the total points for the year is fixed, we can only move them around between seasons (and also resorts?, I'm not sure of that rule).

But to me, this flexibility of playing with the points entirely at Marriott's discretion is very suspect.  If a new DC Club points buyer wants to vacation Xmas week, it can wind up costing him more and more and more and more ... without him having any control at all.  I think the certain "hedge against inflation" benefit is substantially lost forever.  Especially for those, say with children in school, who must travel prime weeks.

Ironically, for an empty nestor like me, just a couple of years away from retirement, it might actually work out well.  Over time, with MVCI analyzing supply and demand, points costs will get more and more scewed toward higher demand weeks.  If I can travel in lower demand time slots, it may even, over time, ameliorate the skim cost entirely.

Damn, I may just have changed my own mind.  Maybe I'll join the DC, after all.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 12, 2010)

*That Idea Was Bogus Then & Is Still Bogus Now.*




cbdmvci said:


> As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."


That is a beguiling & seemingly attractive reason for buying timeshares -- to "lock in" prepaid vacation costs, by contrast with hotel-motel prices that are apt to go up.

Trouble is, it's _Hide The Ball_ reasoning -- a quick & tricky example of changing the subject. 

Acquisition cost of _getting_ timeshares has nothing to do with the ongoing cost of _using_ timeshares -- i.e., those everlasting & never-ending maintenance fees.  

If I get my timeshare(s) _el cheapo_ or even _el freebo_, that's still not locking in future inflation-hedging costs for vacation accommodations.  That's because timeshare maintenance fees can & do go up-up-up, same as hotels & motels.  

That bit about locking in vacation costs is clever, but untrue. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## jme (Oct 12, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> That is a beguiling & seemingly attractive reason for buying timeshares -- to "lock in" prepaid vacation costs, by contrast with hotel-motel prices that are apt to go up.
> 
> Trouble is, it's _Hide The Ball_ reasoning -- a quick & tricky example of changing the subject.
> 
> ...



Not totally untrue. Maintenance fees are far less than a rental for 7 nights (2 -BR condo, not hotel rooms) for what we want. That may not be true for off-season weeks, but we own prime summer weeks and the lowest price available (rental thru different sources) is still $1000-$1500 difference, so I would concur with OP that for me, the cost of "ever-rising" maintenance fees will still remain considerably less than the rental fees. Ratio of Maintenance fees to Rental Prices may not be so advantageous for those other weeks, granted.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 12, 2010)

*Not Necessarily A Bad Deal, Just Not "Locked In" Costs.*




jme said:


> I would concur with OP that for me, the cost of "ever-rising" maintenance fees will still remain considerably less than the rental fees. Ratio of Maintenance fees to Rental Prices may not be so advantageous for those other weeks, granted.


No argument from me.  

Via timeshares, we still get to enjoy spacious & luxurious vacation accommodations at Motel 6 & Super 8 rates despite rising maintenance fees. 

The point is simply that buying a timeshare -- cheap or high or in between, even getting 1 free -- locks in nothing no matter what the timeshare sellers say.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2010)

cbdmvci said:


> Over time, with MVCI analyzing supply and demand, points costs will get more and more scewed toward higher demand weeks.  If I can travel in lower demand time slots, it may even, over time, ameliorate the skim cost entirely.
> .



I don't know if higher demand times will get more and more expensive point wise over time. Look at DVC. Their weekend nights were very expensive point wise. That caused a lot of people to rethink their plans and book only weeknights on DVC points and pay for a hotel stay for the weekend with cash. DVC when analyzing the supply and demand realized that demand now for those weekend nights was lower, so they made the cost of them less and the weeknights a little higher because the demand was there for weeknights to warrant it.

So over time you may see lower demand times become more demanded in the point system. Current under weeks all owners were paying the same MF, so they wanted to always travel during the prime weeks. All they had was a week so they wanted the best. Now with points some will realize they can go two or three weeks for their old one week. So they may now travel lower season and get more time away. This drives up demand for those non-prime weeks.


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## Werner Weiss (Oct 12, 2010)

cbdmvci said:


> But, if in the Destination Club Program, the cost in points for a night is not fixed, but adjustable entirely at MVCI's discretion, than that, the most important benefit, is lost.



My understanding is that there is contractual (legal) protection for Trust owners. The Trust owners own a piece of the trust, and that piece cannot be devalued arbitrarily. The point charts can be balanced out to make sure that they properly reflect relative demand, but it all has to add up the same way eventually. If Marriott did a good job coming up with the initial point charts, there should not be significant adjustments.

As far as I can tell, we enrolled weeks owners don't have a similar legal protection. But because we use the same point charts, we benefit from the protection for Trust owners. That's a good thing for for us. And we still have our weeks which we can use was we did before the Destination Club Program.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2010)

Werner Weiss said:


> My understanding is that there is contractual (legal) protection for Trust owners. The Trust owners own a piece of the trust, and that piece cannot be devalued arbitrarily. The point charts can be balanced out to make sure that they properly reflect relative demand, but it all has to add up the same way eventually. If Marriott did a good job coming up with the initial point charts, there should not be significant adjustments.
> 
> As far as I can tell, we enrolled weeks owners don't have a similar legal protection. But because we use the same point charts, we benefit from the protection for Trust owners. That's a good thing for for us. And we still have our weeks which we can use was we did before the Destination Club Program.



However, that legal protection only applies to resorts that are part of the trust and have had points allocated to the trust from them. There is no protection from an enrolled owner standpoint how many points they have to offer you each year for your week.


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## Werner Weiss (Oct 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> However, that legal protection only applies to resorts that are part of the trust and have had points allocated to the trust from them. There is no protection from an enrolled owner standpoint how many points they have to offer you each year for your week.


Good point. That's how I understand it too.

In the end, the thing that protects enrolled owners most is that Marriott wants enrolled owners to use the program. That's what brings about a supply of points inventory at the whole portfolio of MVC resorts that are in the points charts, not just the newer properties that are part of the Trust.


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## Lawlar (Oct 12, 2010)

*No Inflation Protection*



cbdmvci said:


> As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."
> 
> .



I have to side with those who believe that this inflation argument for buying a TS from Marriott is false (for most of us).

Here are the numbers for my TS:
     Purchase price: $50,000 -
         A modest return on my money would be 5%, so lost yearly interest is $2,500.
     Maintenance Fees are $2,000
     Decrease in value of TS: $20,000 (spread out over ten years) is a loss of $2,000 a year.
     Cost of illiquid investment (hard to sell) should be another consideration.

So by my crude math, I am spending $6,500 for the privilege of staying in a hotel room for one week a year.  Not a great bargain, in my opinion.


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## windje2000 (Oct 12, 2010)

Werner Weiss said:


> Good point. That's how I understand it too.
> 
> In the end, the thing that protects enrolled owners most is that Marriott wants enrolled owners to use the program. That's what brings about a supply of points inventory at the whole portfolio of MVC resorts that are in the points charts, not just the newer properties that are part of the Trust.



As a practical matter, Marriott can change the point costs and points allocated to any 'legacy' week.  But to what end.  

Suppose they made the points cost of a points reservation so high that one only received 2 or 3 days of occupancy for the points value of your week.  All they would be doing is compelling legacy owners to exchange via II rather then through DClub - and that does them little good for DClub exchange co. inventory.

That's really the only factor I see that would limit their ability to deflate point values for legacy weeks.


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## scrapngen (Oct 12, 2010)

Lawlar said:


> I have to side with those who believe that this inflation argument for buying a TS from Marriott is false (for most of us).
> 
> Here are the numbers for my TS:
> Purchase price: $50,000 -
> ...



Well, to be fair, you are staying in a guaranteed week oceanfront 2 bedroom (?) 5 star resort, from what I can tell. Not a hotel room...


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## gblotter (Oct 12, 2010)

If I had known about the numerous avenues to rent weeks at virtually any MVCI location during any week of the year, I likely would never have purchased.  The rental option seems like such a better way to go.  A typical rental price is usually only slightly more than the annual maintenance fees.  And many times you can find deals for much less than the annual MF.  I don't look back at my purchases with regret, but I do try to learn from experience.


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## timeos2 (Oct 12, 2010)

*Far easier to rent or trade for what we want. Especially easy to rent*



gblotter said:


> If I had known about the numerous avenues to rent weeks at virtually any MVCI location during any week of the year, I likely would never have purchased.  The rental option seems like such a better way to go.  A typical rental price is usually only slightly more than the annual maintenance fees.  And many times you can find deals for much less than the annual MF.  I don't look back at my purchases with regret, but I do try to learn from experience.



Not due to any grand plan (except a refusal to part with large sums of money for any timeshare no matter how appealing at the time) we avoided Marriott after coming oh so close to buying at least twice. Fortunately we were able to get into our desired resorts via low cost trades/points and renting and then really didn't care if we never did Marriott again. Thus saving big upfront & later on the rather unexpected jump in annual fees and turn of the operation from owner friendly to profit motivated (similar to the DVC change of focus) and then the prices fell to where if we did want it we could actually buy - but now we don't want it anymore!  

We may still enjoy some stays at what remain some of the nicer resorts in many popular areas but feel no need to be owners. The price/value - not sale price anymore but fees - just aren't attractive. Prepaid vacations? No way. The fees have increased way above the cost to rent and  that isn't good for owners.


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## Lawlar (Oct 12, 2010)

*You are right*



scrapngen said:


> Well, to be fair, you are staying in a guaranteed week oceanfront 2 bedroom (?) 5 star resort, from what I can tell. Not a hotel room...



Yes, you are right.  It's a really nice place.  We are spoiled.  But I could stay at another really nice place for a lot less money.


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## pacheco18 (Oct 13, 2010)

You also have the possibility (if you know how to play the game and choose to play) of turning that one luxury week into 3 luxury weeks.  That changes the math considerably.

I have used my 1 bedroom, deposited studio and exchanged for 2 bedroom and used bonus week for 3 bedroom.  Makes that one week worth a bit more don't you think?


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## Old Hickory (Oct 13, 2010)

Do you guys ever factor in ACs and XYZs when pouring over your annual cost/benefit analysis?


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## SueDonJ (Oct 13, 2010)

Old Hickory said:


> Do you guys ever factor in ACs and XYZs when pouring over your annual cost/benefit analysis?



Sure, I factored in that for the last two years II didn't offer AC's for the weeks I own that used to get them, and that XYZ's weren't something I knew about until earlier this year.  Even then, I learned about them in a thread in which everyone who did know about them posted how you had to be lucky enough to get the "right" II rep to process them for you.  It's true, they're great if you know how to get and use them, but I much prefer a system where the exchange company you belong to takes the responsibility to see that you and every other member know exactly what you're entitled to and that you all get those same things without jumping through hoops.

[edited to add] By the way, AC and XYZ possibilities are not automatically lost upon enrollment in the DC.  The new/Marriott II accounts for those of us who have enrolled in the DC to appear to be exactly the same as our old II accounts, and we've been told by Marriott and II that AC's and XYZ's will still be available (on the same limited basis) to us if we use our Week(s) within II for exchanging.  Of course it might not make sense to enroll only one Week in the DC if you only ever intend to keep using II, but if you have more than one Week then it's not a bad thing to enroll all of them in the DC in order to be able to play within both systems.


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## Lawlar (Oct 13, 2010)

*Average Joe and Mary*

OK, those of you who devote your efforts to making the most of your TS value, buying resale, getting your ACs, XYZs and ABCs, may be getting a bargain, of sorts.  You are very creative, and I admire your resourcefulness.

I've discovered the advantages of renting, thanks to TUG and its members.  I just got back from Shadow Ridge ($300 for the whole week - but boy are those rooms noisy, especially when your neighbor turns on their jacuzzi late at night), and we are going to Tahoe next week for $300 for the week (2 bedroom/kitchen).  That's a great deal that has to make those who paid $20,000 for their units cry.

But for Joe and Mary Average, especially if they are retired and on a limited income, they are never going to get their money's worth if they buy a TS directly from Marriott.  Their dreams of a world of beautiful vacations will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive salesperson.


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## DanCali (Oct 13, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> ...but I much prefer a system where the exchange company you belong to takes the responsibility to see that you and every other member know exactly what you're entitled to and that you all get those same things without jumping through hoops.



Too bad Marriott doesn't qualify...

I've heard too many cases of people being led to believe that a 1000 point purchase allows them to combine exchange points with trust points to access trust inventory directly. Imagine their surprise when they find out the truth.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 13, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Too bad Marriott doesn't qualify...
> 
> I've heard too many cases of people being led to believe that a 1000 point purchase allows them to combine exchange points with trust points to access trust inventory directly. Imagine their surprise when they find out the truth.



Misleading statements about availability aren't anything new to timesharing despite the fact that "subject to availability" has and always will be an important factor when considering whether or not the timeshare vacation model works for a person.  When it comes to being misled, I don't see any difference between a salesperson saying, "You can reserve any Week within your season" and "You can reserve any Points inventory held by Marriott or released by other Owners."  They're both true statements on their own but as we've all learned, things don't work out as simply as either would imply.  When you factor in, especially, that most salespeople don't have a working knowledge of the product they're selling, then you learn that you have to read the docs to get the correct answers.  I'm not saying it's the way things SHOULD be in the timeshare industry (or that Marriott couldn't have done a better job with the DC rollout) but I do wonder what in our past history with Marriott would lead us to believe that the salespeople would suddenly change their tactics with this new product.   

As far as my response in this thread, I was replying to the question about AC and XYZ factors.  I do believe that Marriott's new exchange system provides far more transparency than II's system does as to exactly how much trade value you will be able to get from a certain deposit (availability notwithstanding.)  "I have this many Points and it will cost this many to get what I want," is a lot simpler than, "I have this resort/season - which week should I reserve, where can I expect to go, has anyone ever gotten an AC, they gave me an AC last year but not two years ago, what about XYZ, wait what is XYZ, no way they didn't offer me an XYZ ..." and all the other nonsense that's involved with a successful II exchange.


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## windje2000 (Oct 13, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Misleading statements ... ARE LIES!!
> 
> When it comes to being misled, I don't see any difference between a salesperson saying, "You can reserve any Week within your season" and "You can reserve any Points inventory held by Marriott or released by other Owners."  ...
> 
> ...



Actually Marriott was better than most in the timeshare biz, and the operative word in the antecedent clause is WAS.  

I'm (relatively speaking) a newby timesharer compared to some folks here.  But I did find out about XYZ and AC from II. How?  I ask open ended questions - an art that is very useful in eliciting useful information about anything.

DC may well work better for you than II since a 3BR non-lockoff is not an efficient trading vehicle in II.  But DC is a very pricey way to trade.  Different strokes for different folks.    

Personally, I have no tolerance whatsoever for prevarication in any form especially from someone trying to sell me something.  Always read the documents first.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 13, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Misleading statements ARE LIES!!
> 
> What you say here is technically correct, but what the sales folks either say or lead you to believe is not always technically accurate.
> 
> ...



Interesting how you and I have reached some of the same conclusions but you chopped up my post so that it appears we didn't.  You're right - always read the documents first.  But when the DC was rolled out, the documents WERE the FIRST thing available to all of us for review - they were put up on the website just after midnight on June 20th and the first TUG post about them was here within minutes.

You're also right that the salespeople were/are woefully inept at handling questions about it from the very first, but I stand by what I said that we should know better than to expect the salespeople to be able to answer detailed questioned from savvy owners.  I don't like that that's how it is, but I accept it because it's reality.  Quite honestly, it surprises me that TUGgers are somehow offended by misleading statements from salespeople because whenever a newbie comes to TUG and starts asking questions, some TUGgers take great delight in gleefully informing those newbies that, "if a salesperson's lips are moving, he's LYING!"  So we're harmed by being misled, but we delight in pointing out that it happens to all of us?!

As far as open-ended questions to II - what would you have suggested I do differently?  Each and every time my 3BR was exchanged for a 2BR in a lesser season/resort and I asked the II rep if there "isn't ANYthing that you can offer to make up the difference," absolutely no mention at all was made about the XYZ possibility.  If as you say the correct answers are to be found if you only ask the right questions, how much more open-ended should my question have been worded?

And once again, we agree completely on different strokes for different folks - but nowhere have I said that the DC will work for everyone.  In this particular thread, all I did was compare its transparency (with respect to exchange value) with II's.


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## windje2000 (Oct 14, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Each and every time my 3BR was exchanged for a 2BR in a lesser season/resort and I asked the II rep if there "isn't ANYthing that you can offer to make up the difference," absolutely no mention at all was made about the XYZ possibility.  If as you say the correct answers are to be found if you only ask the right questions, how much more open-ended should my question have been worded?



Certainly sounds like you asked the right questions and were ill served at II.  

As to the sales shenanigans, I don't care what they've done in the past.  Wrong is wrong.  Repeating a wrong does not make it right.

I simply do not accept sales people 1. lying or 2. misrepresenting or 3. misleading or 4. knowingly allowing prospects to make a purchase decision under false and mistaken assumptions. 

And Marriott obviously knows about it and condones it with the 'caveat emptor' (nothing a salesman says means anything if it's not in an approved writing) clause in the contract.

Points systems have greater complexity than the deeds system.  The opportunities for shenanigans are greater in a brand new complex systems.  Especially if the only documents descriptive of the plan are 'legal' documents.


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## Old Hickory (Oct 14, 2010)

Lawlar said:
			
		

> Their dreams of a world of beautiful vacations will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive salesperson.



Their dreams of (______________________________) will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive (__________________).

Fill in your own, right?  That's life.  And that is why most of us are here, on TUG, to become informed people in order to make better decisions. 

I'll look into that renting option, thanks Lawlar!


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## luckydude (Oct 14, 2010)

What is an XYZ?


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## SueDonJ (Oct 14, 2010)

luckydude said:


> What is an XYZ?



See?  SEE?  This is what aggravates me to no end about II - that there are these secret benefits that you have to apparently be lucky enough to deal with the "right" rep in order to know about and/or get them.  I don't know how anybody can think that II's system is the best for exchange value when more than half the time the folks who are actually members of II don't know and aren't told exactly exactly what they are eligible for in exchange for their deposits.  Heck, there are reports on TUG of folks who learned about XYZ's here, are eligible for them, but still when they call and ask II for them their request is denied.

Lucky, sorry I went off on your post.  My rant has nothing to do with you at all, but your post is one in a string of them this year that has asked exactly the same question.  After this long a time with the cat out of the bag, II should be making an effort to let all their members know about these!

There are two types of XYZ offers available from II; both are extra weeks similar to AC's that supplement an exchange you've received for depositing a Week.  This quote is the best explanation of XYZ's, it's a previous post from TUG Member DanCali:



> An XYZ promotion is a 2-for-1 promotion that allows you to get a second week for a $149 fee. I believe this would be in addition to any AC you were offered so you can basically get 3-for-1 or 6-for-2 using ACs and XYZs (subject only to the cost of using the AC + $149 for the XYZ).
> 
> The first type of XYZ is just a bonus week that you can get for a confirmed exchange but it has to be in a high-supply area like Palm Springs, Vegas, Orlando etc. There is no restriction on size - if a 2BR or 3BR is available in their inventory, you can take it. The fee is $149, regardless of size. There is also a restriction that the week you get has to happen before the date of checkin at the resort you exchanged into originally. I've used this promotion to get a 2BR at MGC and a 2BR at DSV2.
> 
> The second type you can get is compensation for size. So if you exchange a 3BR to a 2BR or a 2BR to a 1BR, you can get another studio or 1BR. The inventory for this is a lot less restricted, so you can get a place like NCV (if you traded a 3BR to a 1BR and they "owe" you a 2BR) or even Hawaii, if the inventory is there when you call (not likely for most weeks of the year). You do not need to get this extra week at the same resort you exchanged into. The fee for this XYZ promo is also $149.



Various TUG reports say that either of these XYZ offers may be special promotions with an expiration date.  Other reports say that they are ongoing promotions that are available at all times but can only be obtained from an II telephone rep who is knowledgeable about their existence.  There was even one morning when "XYZ" showed up in some of our online II accounts for a couple hours, and telephone calls in to II left the II reps as confused as we were until they mysteriously disappeared as quickly as they'd appeared!

Good luck to you trying to get one of these if you're eligible - I haven't been so lucky but many TUGgers have.


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## luckydude (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you Sue for the explanation. Your rant wasn't taken personally. I have owned Marriott timeshares and been a member of II since 2002 and this is the first that I have heard of an XYZ.


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## Lawlar (Oct 14, 2010)

*XYZ*



SueDonJ said:


> There are two types of XYZ offers available from II; both are extra weeks similar to AC's that supplement an exchange you've received for depositing a Week.  This quote is the best explanation of XYZ's, it's a previous post from TUG Member DanCali:



This is the first thread I have read about XYZ.  Interesting.

We never trade.  But I admire how some of you learn all the ins and outs of getting the most for your TS.


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## BocaBoy (Oct 15, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Look at DVC. Their weekend nights were very expensive point wise. That caused a lot of people to rethink their plans and book only weeknights on DVC points and pay for a hotel stay for the weekend with cash. *DVC when analyzing the supply and demand realized that demand now for those weekend nights was lower, so they made the cost of them less and the weeknights a little higher* because the demand was there for weeknights to warrant it.



Have the 2011-2012 point charts been modified already?


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## Old Hickory (Oct 15, 2010)

What if the XYZ is NOT a written benefit of II memberhsip but instead is only offered on a per case basis as a bonus to the courteous and nice people (clients)?   

Just asking...


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## Fredm (Oct 15, 2010)

Old Hickory said:


> What if the XYZ is NOT a written benefit of II memberhsip but instead is only offered on a per case basis as a bonus to the courteous and nice people (clients)?
> 
> Just asking...



My guess:

I.I. "promotions" like the XYZ are intended to compensate for the revenue shortfall caused by lack of new member enrollments. 
No new timeshare sales, no incremental  new members.
It's all about fee generation. There are several promos currently. They are expanded and contracted as fee requirements and inventory dictate.

It's also an attractive lure for quality tier deposits. 

I.I. will not formalize the promotions permanently, member wide, because they want to keep their options open. So, they set promotion targets for the more knowledgeable csr's (who are compensated for hitting their targets).


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

Hmmmmm.  That's a leading question, Old Hickory, with the implication that some of us must not have been offered XYZ's because we're not nice to II reps.  There really isn't any way to answer that without getting on a high horse, is there?  We can say, though, that there are reports on TUG of eligible II members asking in exactly the same manner and not all of them are successful with their requests.  As well, how can somebody be not nice to a rep about not getting an XYZ, if s/he doesn't even know they exist and so hasn't asked about them?   

Anyway, here's my first post about XYZ's from when I learned about them on TUG.  I haven't requested an II exchange since so I haven't had an opportunity to ask for XYZ's (or be somehow not nice to an II rep,) but at least now I know they exist and will know what to reference in the future.  I just wish I had known about them last year and the year before, when I could have taken advantage of them.

But that's my whole point about the secrecy surrounding these things!  Probably Fred is right - they're not written into the docs so II can choose when to offer them, when they need to offer them for revenue.  No problem there.  But I still think that when they are offering them, every rep should be able to access them and help everybody get the most from their II memberships.


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## windje2000 (Oct 15, 2010)

Fredm said:


> My guess:
> 
> I.I. "promotions" like the XYZ are intended to compensate for the revenue shortfall caused by lack of new member enrollments.
> No new timeshare sales, no incremental  new members.
> ...



In addition, less than 100% of the weeks deposited in II are redeemed, notwithstanding the various time frames available for redemption.  There's always going to be some slippage.

Those deposited weeks are reservations with definite dates and are 'perishable.'  

II would seem to be attempting to get something (an exchange fee) for a week that might otherwise expire unused.  Same principle as getaways.


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## vacationtime1 (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmmmm.  That's a leading question, Old Hickory, with the implication that some of us must not have been offered XYZ's because we're not nice to II reps.  There really isn't any way to answer that without getting on a high horse, is there?  We can say, though, that there are reports on TUG of eligible II members asking in exactly the same manner and not all of them are successful with their requests.  As well, how can somebody be not nice to a rep about not getting an XYZ, if s/he doesn't even know they exist and so hasn't asked about them?



You are assuming the II representative even knew about XYZ.  I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> You are assuming the II representative even knew about XYZ.  I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption.



Not at all - I think each of them should know if/when any promotion is available, but it's obvious they all don't!  That's what I don't understand.

And honestly, I'm not stomping around the playground with a scowl on my face pouting, "it's not FAYYY - AIR!!  :hysterical:   But it's not fair, is it?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Not at all - I think each of them should know if/when any promotion is available, but it's obvious they all don't!  That's what I don't understand.
> 
> And honestly, I'm not stomping around the playground with a scowl on my face pouting, "it's not FAYYY - AIR!!  :hysterical:   But it's not fair, is it?



But is DC really any more fair? Some people were offered gobbs of points for their weeks, while others were only offered a paltry amount. Some were offered zero points for theirs. Marriott recently came out with a limited time promotion to exchange for time at reduced point amounts. Some people were offered 25% off and others 50% off the points cost. Is that fair? If I was offered 25% off I wouldn't have known others were offered 50% off unless I read it here. 

Developers have made timeshare a "class" level system. There are those who are given certain opportunities and others who are not. In II at least the XYZ is available to everyone who knows about it. Not just certain owners and their friends. Now you do have to be someone's friend to hear about it.

Is it fair that resale owners have to pay $1500+ to enroll a week and a retail owner only pays $600+? Some may think so, others will not. We are all owners, aren't we?

There is nothing fair about the timeshare system as a whole. It is a convoluted system that is void of transparencies.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> But is DC really any more fair? Some people were offered gobbs of points for their weeks, while others were only offered a paltry amount. Some were offered zero points for theirs. Marriott recently came out with a limited time promotion to exchange for time at reduced point amounts. Some people were offered 25% off and others 50% off the points cost. Is that fair? If I was offered 25% off I wouldn't have known others were offered 50% off unless I read it here.
> 
> Developers have made timeshare a "class" level system. There are those who are given certain opportunities and others who are not. In II at least the XYZ is available to everyone who knows about it. Not just certain owners and their friends. Now you do have to be someone's friend to hear about it.
> 
> ...



You're right, the developers base everything on their tiered/class system and we don't have any say in the matter.  But II isn't a timeshare developer, they're an exchange company.  As far as I know, within Marriott's DC or any other developer's internal exchange system, owners of the same resort/unit/season are entitled to exactly the same exchange opportunities, including those reduced-fare email offers.  (It's true, different resorts/units/seasons received different offers, but everyone with the same resort/unit/season got the same offer.)  And all owners of a SurfWatch 3BR Gold OS Week receive as many DC Points as every other owner of the same Week.

The way II distributes these XYZ offers - through only certain reps and/or only upon the member asking and possibly having to insist that s/he is eligible for the offer - is not the same thing at all as a tiered system based on what you own or how it was purchased.  Two owners of a SurfWatch Gold 3BR can deposit their Week with II and make the exact same exchange for a Barony Silver 2BR, and it's anybody's guess whether or not one or both or neither will be offered an XYZ.  They both would be eligible for at least the size compensation one, and might possibly be eligible for the excess inventory one, right?  But one rep might not be aware of them and doesn't escalate the request to a supervisor, or one member might not be aware and so doesn't ask, or whatever ...

That's what I think is so unfair about XYZ's.  If they're going to be available as promotions, then every II member who is eligible for them should be offered them.  I really don't think that's too much to ask.

I'm sorry for beating a dead horse here.    My last comment is that if I ever do an II exchange which appears to be eligible for an XYZ, then I will be nicely asking the II rep to either process it or connect me to another rep who can.  I just wish I could know ahead of time if I should expect success or frustration.


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## DanCali (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> As far as I know, within Marriott's DC or any other developer's internal exchange system, owners of the same resort/unit/season are entitled to exactly the same exchange opportunities, including those reduced-fare email offers.



But in Marriott's system, different owners are entitled to different levels of ROI based on how they bought their unit. Not too some are excluded altogether just because it serves Marriott's interests best.


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## windje2000 (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> That's what I think is so unfair about XYZ's.  *If they're going to be available as promotions, then every II member who is eligible for them should be offered them.*  I really don't think that's too much to ask.



Is there anything in particular that makes you think that's not currently happening?


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Is there anything in particular that makes you think that's not currently happening?



Well, yeah, considering that they've been around for long enough so that folks shouldn't still be asking questions about what they are, nevermind how to get them!  There haven't been any reports on TUG that II reps are offering these without prodding to folks whenever they're eligible for them, but there have been plenty of posts from folks who have made eligible exchanges and then had to call II after the fact when they learned about XYZ's here.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But in Marriott's system, different owners are entitled to different levels of ROI based on how they bought their unit. Not too some are excluded altogether just because it serves Marriott's interests best.



I'm assuming ROI = Return on Investment?  Sure, Dan, I agree, but in these posts I'm only talking about exchange value - what you can get from the exchange company for a certain deposit, and why in II's system some folks can get more than others for the exact same deposits.  I don't see that happening in Marriott's new DC or any other internal exchange system.  It doesn't matter how you bought a Marriott Week, every same resort/unit/season is allotted the same number of DC Points if the owner enrolls it in the DC.  But if two or more owners deposit the same Week into II, regardless of whether they purchased their Weeks in a similar manner, the possibility exists for each of them to get or not get an XYZ offer depending on the competence/whim of the II rep.  That's what I don't understand.  I don't see this as a Marriott issue - it's in the complete control of II.


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## windje2000 (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Well, yeah, considering that they've been around for long enough so that folks shouldn't still be asking questions about what they are, nevermind how to get them!  *There haven't been any reports on TUG that II reps are offering these without prodding to folks whenever they're eligible for them,* but there have been plenty of posts from folks who have made *eligible* exchanges and then had to call II after the fact when they learned about XYZ's here.



Then let me be the first - I was offered one without prodding.  I don't know what made me eligible.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 15, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Then let me be the first - I was offered one without prodding.  I don't know what made me eligible.



(I'm sure this reply can be looked at as sarcasm, but please believe me that none is intended.)  Your experience with II - being offered an XYZ by a knowledgeable rep at the time of your exchange - is honestly good news!  I hope it's the start of a trend and we see fewer "what is an XYZ / how do I get one / why didn't I get one?" posts here on TUG.


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## windje2000 (Oct 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> (I'm sure this reply can be looked at as sarcasm, but please believe me that none is intended.)  Your experience with II - being offered an XYZ by a knowledgeable rep at the time of your exchange - is honestly good news!  I hope it's the start of a trend and we see fewer "what is an XYZ / how do I get one / why didn't I get one?" posts here on TUG.



My sense is that the XYZ program was never supposed to be anything other than an 'under the radar' means of II periodically shedding 'doggy' inventory that they couldn't move even as a getaway, based on the weeks we received.

(PS - I believe you  )


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## dioxide45 (Oct 17, 2010)

I think it boils down to the fact that not everyone knows about every benefit of ownership. That goes for II or DC. There will be owners that know more about how to work either system than other owners. It isn't necessarily unfair, just how it works.

The DC program isn't any more or less fair than II. Just fairer or less fair in different ways. Why does a plat owner pay the same enrollment fee as a silver owner. Their week may garner 5000 points and a silver owner garners 1000 points. Is it fair that they pay the same amount to enroll? Not really. But Marriott chose to do it that way because they want and need those plat owners in the program.


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## Old Hickory (Oct 18, 2010)

Fredm said:


> My guess:
> 
> I.I. "promotions" like the XYZ are intended to compensate for the revenue shortfall caused by lack of new member enrollments.
> No new timeshare sales, no incremental  new members.
> ...



That's I believe, as well, so I don't consider them an entitlement but instead a bonus for my membership and active participation with II.   And, of course, my nice southern charm...


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## MALC9990 (Oct 18, 2010)

*XYZ's*

I think I'll go and post an ionnocent question on the II Community board for Exchanges about XYZs and see what kind of storm in an internet teacup I stir up :hysterical:


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## MALC9990 (Oct 18, 2010)

*XYZs*

However, here in Europe, in all of my dealings with II in the UK I have never heard of XYZ weeks and I have exchanged and traded consistently with II every year since I became a Marriott Owner in 2003. Not long by some standards but I have made multiple exchanges every year and quite a few Getaways. My membership of II now stretches to 2019 and so I feel I should be considered a good II customer.

From now on I will be asking for a XYZ every time I deposit and exchange and see what I get.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 18, 2010)

*XYZ posting on Interval's community pages.*



MALC9990 said:


> I think I'll go and post an ionnocent question on the II Community board for Exchanges about XYZs and see what kind of storm in an internet teacup I stir up :hysterical:



Well I made the post on Interval's exchange community - of course now Interval will vet the post - what is the betting that it does not make it onto the community ?


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## winger (Oct 19, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Well, yeah, considering that they've been around for long enough so that folks shouldn't still be asking questions about what they are, nevermind how to get them!  There haven't been any reports on TUG that II reps are offering these without prodding to folks whenever they're eligible for them....


 this thread has triggered a bell.  Two + years ago, when we had an ongoing search for a 2 BD Ko Olina with our 2 BD Manor, I called one day after work to check on the status. The gentleman who took the call asked us if we would be willing to accept a studio (or it could have been a 1 BD) that was available IN EXCHANGE FOR AN AC since we were in effect downgrading unit sizes.  At the time, I was focused on getting a 2 BD for the exchange so I declined the AC.  In thinking back, I guess II reps do offer XYzZ's without prodding IF they are aware of it and if they find circumstances where they can use it to make an exchange happen.


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