# Vacation Club Points Survey



## ddinallo (Nov 11, 2008)

I received a survey from MVCI today and I captured what I thought were interesting sections about the details of what they are considering with the new points system.  Sorry if this has already been posted somewhere else.


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## timeos2 (Nov 11, 2008)

*Sounds like most points systems. I like it.*

Well, that sounds like most points based systems. And it sure sounds like they are close to rolling it out.  II will take a BIG hit if it's successful and most of the Marriott trades move to the private internal system with only the crossovers making it to II.  

Sounds good to this points system owner (all my weeks have the ability or have been converted to points).  Of course the cost is always the hang up so how they price it may determine how many owners sign on and thus how many weeks are available within the internal system.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 11, 2008)

Interesting information.
I think I prefer the present system and exchanges with II. I think this new program would cost more $$ ($159 to belong to the program?) and be more restrictive. With II you can often upgrade in size or season. It appears with the new Marriott points, an upgrade would cost more points. So you would lose nights (a stay of 5 nights instead of 7) or have to use points from another year.

Based on the recent changes to the MR program I don't anticipate changes that will benefit the Marriott owner. Sounds like these enhancements will make it more difficult to upgrade into a 2 bedroom, more popular resort or season.


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## mas (Nov 11, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Interesting information.
> I think I prefer the present system and exchanges with II. I think this new program would cost more $$ ($159 to belong to the program?)...
> 
> ...Based on the recent changes to the MR program I don't anticipate changes that will benefit the Marriott owner. Sounds like these enhancements will make it more difficult to upgrade into a 2 bedroom, more popular resort or season.



Fees will indeed determine whether this proposed program is successful.  Marriott has been well known for nickel and dime-ing the details.  If they try to do that here, I don't think it will be successful.  People will merely opt out of the program and continue with the old.

As to assessing a points value and the practice of upgrade/downgrade trades, it looks to me like one is trading flexibility and certainty of a given trade for the possibility of an upgrade.  In other words, a sort of fair value doctrine.  How fair it is will be determined by the actual point assessment.  A lot of people (a lot of tuggers) will complain about the loss of opportunities to upgrade to a 'better' trade for no cost, i.e. trading a sport week at Orlando's CH for a week at any of the Hawaiian Marriotts.  IMHO, I look at this as a non issue...the idea of trading has alway been meant as a like for like exchange.  The fact that people have been able to exploit the system doesn't mean that they should expect this, nor should they be surprised when a refinement to the system to close such loopholes  comes along.  

For my part as long as any fees involved are reasonable (i.e. exchanging an annual usage fee for the II annual membership fee?), I would welcome the change.


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## lll1929 (Nov 11, 2008)

I didn't think the proposed plan took flexchange into account.  I really use this aspect of II to get a bigger unit in the last 59 days.

I also don't know about paying additional $$ to belong to this new point program.  

The biggest advantage to the proposed program is anyday checkin.  It will make it easier to use FF miles since the greatest demand is on weekend and the new plan would allow you to fly on weekdays.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 11, 2008)

I love the option of Flexchange with II and would hate to lose this option. 

Also, it bothers me that I might receive far less points for my silver weeks than a platinum week owner, but I still pay the same MF. If Marriott is going to a points based system, the MF's should not be the same for every season.


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## lll1929 (Nov 11, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> If Marriott is going to a points based system, the MF's should not be the same for every season.



Agree.  I should not have to pay the same as a platinum at my resort if I don't get the same number of points.


Also, I wonder if they will devalue our timeshare using this new system.  Require 25000 pts today for a week at resort X, and 15 yrs from now, require 30000 pts for the same week at resort X.  All while giving me 25000 for my week.


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## littlestar (Nov 11, 2008)

lll1929 said:


> Agree.  I should not have to pay the same as a platinum at my resort if I don't get the same number of points.
> 
> 
> Also, I wonder if they will devalue our timeshare using this new system.  Require 25000 pts today for a week at resort X, and 15 yrs from now, require 30000 pts for the same week at resort X.  All while giving me 25000 for my week.



I agree. I, too, wonder about devaluation. $159 sounds high to me. 

I own other timeshares besides Marriott and I like not having to have separate memberships for each week in II. Doesn't some of the other systems charge you for each week you own? Sounds like a potential money maker for Marriott, but probably not so good for me. Sounds like they want more money for something I already own.


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## mprocopi (Nov 11, 2008)

*Good, Bad, and Ugly*

I took this survey today also. 

The system seemed to have a niche for all the different kinds of users.  I especially like the ability to split the week up into as many or few nights as I wanted.

I think overall this is positive news other than the lack of Flexchange (which I definitely communicated in writing where I could).  

The one thing I didn't love was:

Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of X to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

They asked the same question with X being 2000,1500, 1000, 750, 250  (Probably because I kept clicking  "Would definitely not pay this").

I understand that new web sites and roles will need to be created to facilitate this system and thats where the cost is going to be allocated, I just don't think I'm getting a marginally better bang for my buck over II at the moment.   The costs for the website are going to have to be recouped over the various service charges.

If there was an option like:

Pay a one time fee of X and NEVER pay a service charge again (only annual dues) I think that'd work for me.  

But to pay the one time fee and pay per exchange would probably not make this worthwhile in my opinion.

What does everyone else think?


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## mprocopi (Nov 11, 2008)

*What I captured*

Ok, I see that wasn't captured in the original post, I'll add what I pasted from the survey I took also.


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## Dave M (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks to another TUGger, here is a more complete look at the survey. See the bullet-oriented bold text way down this post for some of the key topics.

Start of Survey:

Considering your current life-style and general vacation planning behavior, when is the best time for you to make reservations for your accommodations for stays of 3 nights or more. Please assume 100% availability for all resorts at the point of time when you prefer to make your reservations:

Less than 3 months prior to occupancy (meaning, for a trip in May 2010 you would make the reservation in February 2010)
3 – 6 months prior to occupancy (meaning, for a trip in May 2010 you would make the reservation in between November 2009 and February 2010)
7 – 9 months prior to occupancy (meaning, for a trip in May 2010 you would make the reservation in between August 2009 and October 2009)
10 – 12 months prior to occupancy (meaning, for a trip in May 2010 you would make the reservation in between May 2009 and July 2009)
12+ months prior to occupancy (meaning, for a trip in May 2010 you would make the reservation before May 2009)


Marriott Vacation Club is considering the introduction of a new usage option for its current Owners focused on enhancing the flexibility of the current product. Today an Owner buys a deeded week which he/she can use in weekly increments at either his/her Home Resort, trade for other resorts within the Marriott system, access an Interval International affiliated resort or trade for Marriott Rewards points.

The future use options may enable the Owner to break up his/her week into smaller increments of 3 or more nights (possibly even nightly increments) including weekend stays, check-in any day of the week or bank/borrow parts or all of his/her week in the future to stay at a Marriott Vacation Club resort. All this added flexibility is enabled through a points based exchange program referred to in the following questions as the Vacation Points Exchange Program.

If choosing to enroll, the Owner may either receive Vacation Points for a short-term period (such as up to three years) or in perpetuity (indefinitely). Each year, an annual allotment of Vacation Points would be credited to the Owner for use. The plan is considering the administration of all exchanges (internal within the Marriott Vacation Club system, external to affiliated Interval International resort, trades for Marriott Rewards Points) within the Marriott Vacation Club system to be managed through Marriott Vacation Club instead of Interval International. If an Owner chooses NOT to enroll, he/she would continue to use his/her vacation ownership just like today.

In the future, if enrolling into the Vacation Points Exchange Program, an Owner might take several trips of different durations to different Marriott Vacation Club resorts within a year. Or he/she might take one trip and bank the remainder of his Vacation Points balance for the next year use. Or he/she might take a trip of 5 nights to a highly demanded resort during peak season. The new flexibility of the program would enable the Owner to customize his/her vacation according to his/her preferences, enabling many different possibilities to vacation with Marriott Vacation Club. 

An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by enrolling one or more of their current weeks. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.

Weeks which are in high demand (demand is based on following factors: resort owned, week owned, view owned) will be worth more Vacation Points than those weeks which are in less demand. Future vacation options would be evaluated based on the same criteria. For example, Ski Season in Park City, UT would require more Vacation Points than Hilton Head during the winter. It is therefore possible that when trading in your week you might not have enough Vacation Points available to access a particular resort at the time of year you desire. In that case you would have the option of banking and borrowing or purchasing more Vacation Points. Conversely, if you have a highly demanded week you might have more than enough Vacation Points to access the resort of your choosing and could use the remaining Vacation Points for another trip.

For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:

Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire

* Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.

Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season

* Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights

Option 3 - Change the number of days and season when you travel and turn 7 days into 14 days

* Go to Las Vegas to stay at a 1-bedroom during Platinum Season for a weekend (2 nights), AND go to Mountain Region resort to stay at a 2-bedroom during Silver Season for 7 nights AND go to Orlando to stay at a 2-bedroom during Gold Season for 5 weekday night

Option 4 - Bank one year of Vacation Points to go to Hawaii

* Through banking one year of Points, you will have 57,800 Points
* Go to Hawaii for a 2-bedroom during Platinum Season for 7 nights and still have 9,000 Vacation Points to bank to the following year

20. Today, you trade your week hoping to be confirmed into a high demand destination. In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, your current week may not provide you with the annual Vacation Points required to access a 2-bedroom villa at/during a high-demand destination or week, but you would know the required Vacation Points needed to access the high demand destination prior to making the reservation.

What do you think about the concept that in the new program not all weeks equal the same number of Vacation Points?



Consolidated Service Fee

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week. 

Reservation change fee


$29

Lock-off Use


$75

Split-week Use


$75

Interval International Annual Membership Fee


$64

Interval International Internal Exchange Fee


$99

Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points


$104

International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points


$124

Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic


$139

Interval International External Exchange Fee International


$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis. 

All internal reservations to Marriott Vacation Club resorts may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club. You would no longer use Interval International to trade to another Marriott Vacation Club resort. Trading to a resort outside of the Marriott Vacation Club system would still require the use of Interval International, but this may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club.




Reservation Window - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:

* Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
* At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
* At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments

Weekend Stays - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Weekend stays. You would check in on a Friday or Saturday and check out on Sunday or Monday.

If you were limited to one weekend stay per quarter how would you rate the appeal?

Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year.

# Assuming you enrolled in the Vacation Points Exchange Program, would you be willing to pay a fee for a Home Resort Guarantee?

Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?

Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?

Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?

Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $1250 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?

Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $1875 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?

*To recap, the main elements of the Vacation Points Exchange Program include the following:

* Consolidated Service Fee
* All internal exchanges managed by Marriott Vacation Club
* Reservation Window (ability to make the reservation at the point most convenient to you)
* Any Day Check-In
* Weekend Stays
* Home Resort Guarantee
* Preferred Resort Priority
* Banking/Borrowing
* Variable length of vacation
* Flexible number of bedrooms*

Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of $2000 to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of $1500 to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of $1000 to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

# Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of $500 to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

Marriott Vacation Club is considering requiring Owners to pay a one time fee of $250 to enroll in the new program. Assuming all of the program enhancements meet your expectations and considering this possible fee, how likely are you to enroll in this new program?

If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.

If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.

If you are currently using your timeshare to trade for Marriott Rewards Points, would you imagine changing your behavior given the new program that was described in this survey?


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## WINSLOW (Nov 11, 2008)

I think this sounds alot like Starwood and the StarOptions. I didn't get a survey so I was wondering: If you did use II for an external exchange did the survey say anything about Marriott picking the week for exchange for you (like SVN) or do you still get to pick a week at your home resort that you want to exchange?  Thanx


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 11, 2008)

*Who received this survey?*

That will tell us something about Marriott's thinking -- was it sent to only  developer purchasers, to multiple week owners, to some or all resale owners, etc.?

Not that it matters; Marriott is probably just doing its first round of market research.  

FWIW -- we own two eoy Waiohai weeks purchased resale and did not receive the survey -- at least yet.


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## Latravel (Nov 11, 2008)

That is very interesting.  One thing is for sure, the rumor of a proposed plan is no longer a rumor, it's fact!  

It appears that they have closed up the loopholes that we have all enjoyed as far as trading up to a better unit or season.  You will get exactly what you paid for.  I'm sure they must have something like flexchange to get rid of the inventory that is available at the last minute.  Depending on how they replace flexchange is what will determine if I would join.  Most of my travels are last minute.


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## mprocopi (Nov 11, 2008)

*Survey says....*



vacationtime1 said:


> That will tell us something about Marriott's thinking -- was it sent to only  developer purchasers, to multiple week owners, to some or all resale owners, etc.?



I'm sure they're targeting various demographics.

I only own the Cypress Harbor resale today (since I bought from my dad it might not be technically be a resale).  The other week I sort of accidentally won on ebay (It happens).

I'm also unmarried and 29 which might put me on some short list of "People to Survey".


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2008)

vacationtime1 said:
			
		

> That will tell us something about Marriott's thinking -- was it sent to only developer purchasers, to multiple week owners, to some or all resale owners, etc.?
> 
> Not that it matters; Marriott is probably just doing its first round of market research.
> 
> FWIW -- we own two eoy Waiohai weeks purchased resale and did not receive the survey -- at least yet.



I received the survey and we are resale owner.


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## Steve (Nov 11, 2008)

*Hold on to your wallet!!!*



Dave M said:


> Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
> 
> * Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.
> 
> ...



I think this proposed system is cause for major concern.  The sections I have quoted above are the ones that I dislike the most.  If Marriott implements the system as described in the survey, then many currrent 2 bedroom platinum owners will not have enough Vacation Points to exchange into a 2 bedroom villa during platinum season at a lot of higher demand resorts.  This would be a major change for Marriott, and it would be a huge negative for owners of resorts like Manor Club.  If I can't exchange my Manor Club platinum week for a platinum week at Grande Ocean or Newport Coast Villas without borrowing or buying extra points, then I don't want to own at Manor Club.

Owners of resorts in Hawaii and Aruba might be happy at the outset as they will get more than enough points for a similar week in a lesser demand resort.  In the long run, however, even they might get discouraged.  The reason:  Marriott will certainly charge more Vacation Points for the new resorts it builds.  For example, if the new system were in place today, I'm sure that Marriott would be charging more Vacation Points for Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, and Oceana Palms than they charge for Grande Vista, Beachplace Towers, and Ocean Pointe.  

This would be a way for Marriott to encourage current owners to upgrade to newer resorts...and to purchase additional Vacation Points.  As a Marriott shareholder, it's probably good news for me...as it will probably increase profits.  But it will devalue the ownerships of current MVCI owners.  I don't like it.

Steve


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2008)

lll1929 said:


> I didn't think the proposed plan took flexchange into account.  I really use this aspect of II to get a bigger unit in the last 59 days.
> 
> I also don't know about paying additional $$ to belong to this new point program.
> 
> The biggest advantage to the proposed program is anyday checkin.  It will make it easier to use FF miles since the greatest demand is on weekend and the new plan would allow you to fly on weekdays.



The any day checkin was really an only option for shorter stays. One of the questions asked how you felt about the idea of Marriott only allowing Fri-Sun checkin for stays of seven night.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2008)

mas said:


> A lot of people (a lot of tuggers) will complain about the loss of opportunities to upgrade to a 'better' trade for no cost, i.e. trading a sport week at Orlando's CH for a week at any of the Hawaiian Marriotts.  IMHO, I look at this as a non issue...the idea of trading has alway been meant as a like for like exchange.



No one is exploiting the system in this situation. The like for like may not only be in unit size. Why shouldn't someone be able to exchange their 1BR for a 2BR as long as they are willing to exchange in to a lower season or risk not getting their exchange?
I personally have exchanged a studio in to a 2BR and haven't exploited anyone. I exchanged my high demand week for a low demand season. If I have the flexibility to exchange on short notice then there is nothing wrong with that to clean up excess inventory, even if it means going up in unit size. Apparently II doesn’t consider this exploiting or they wouldn’t allow it.
By removing this ability Marriott would be devaluating all weeks currently owned by all owners. If the option is there now it makes the TS valuable to me, if the option is gone tomorrow the ownership will be less valuable. One is already paying a premium for Marriott and being able to do this is great. If it were gone, there wouldn't be a benefit over owning somewhere that I can buy for $1 resale.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 11, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how this proposed change affects the MVCI property values (which are already in the tank due to the economy).

Does anyone think it will increase the resale values and why?

Does anyone think it will hurt the resale values and why?


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## jscboston (Nov 11, 2008)

I love this points idea, and hope Marriott puts it in place.  

I have owned Marriott for several years, and recently bought a Hilton unit.  I absolutely love Hilton's points-based system.  I can go to their web site and see what is available for any resort in the system.  If I see what I want, I just click it and it is done.  Easy!  Hilton has a three month window (from 12 to 9 months in advance) when you can book exactly what you own (home resort, same season, same unit type, etc).  At the 9 month point you can book any available resort in the system, any unit type, and any number of nights starting at three.  Within a very short window (maybe 30 days) you can book single days.  I've done some checking recently and would not have trouble using my Vegas points in Hawaii, even next spring or summer.  

Seems like the biggest losers in the new system would be retirees or others who can travel at the last minute, and in the off season.  They'll lose the ability to trade a studio into a 2 BR with flexchange.  But I have kids in school, and plan my vacations 9 - 12 months in advance.  We always need to travel when school is out.  So I think this new system would be perfect for us.


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## GrayFal (Nov 11, 2008)

There should be a grace period where all current owners can enroll without ANY fee - don't we already own these weeks/points and doesn't Marriott NEED our weeks/points to implement their new system???

It is interesting that Marriott mentioned the '3 year period' - similar to the committment to the RCI points program.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 11, 2008)

This survey isn't very helpful in deciding whether or not this will be a good program.

What would be more helpful is if they provide a point table for all the resorts and given what you own, how likely would you particpate if the cost to enter were X dollars.

The major success factor for this program will what percentage of owners will just enroll?  I think they need at least 25% of all resorts to take up the offer or there won't be much inventory.  

The requirement for all internal exchanges means basically that once you turn your week into points, Marriott manages the inventory.  That is required and the only way it can actually work.

A better way to go is for Marriott just to buy back inventory at all resorts and then sell them again as points.  Charge an upgrade fee to take your week and turn it into points.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2008)

GrayFal said:


> There should be a grace period where all current owners can enroll without ANY fee - don't we already own these weeks/points and doesn't Marriott NEED our weeks/points to implement their new system???
> 
> It is interesting that Marriott mentioned the '3 year period' - similar to the committment to the RCI points program.



I agree. But we only own the weeks at our own resorts. Not the ability to exchange. It did seem like all new retail purchases would be in to the new system, so they would get some inventory that way. Though not much in the current market.


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## hipslo (Nov 11, 2008)

I am a multiple week owner.  My typical usage pattern is to reserve a number of consecutive and/or concurrent weeks 13 months out.  I then rent some of the weeks out, for cash, and use some of the weeks.  I am not all that interested in exchanging, either through II or through a new internal program.  Anyone have any thoughts on what, if anything, this new points program might mean for such a usage pattern?  For example, it wasnt clear what, if anything, their thinking is in terms of the 12 month/ 13 month rule, and whether it would be retained, at least for those who do not elect to participate in a new points program.


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## sernow (Nov 11, 2008)

The more Marriott tinkers and creates uncertainty, the more they damage their brand.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 11, 2008)

In the event you might want to trade out of Marriott (e.g., visit Harborside, Four Seasons Troon, etc.), you want clarification on how II deposits will be handled.  

Hyatt's Model:

A Hyatt 2-BR gold week is worth 1880 Hyatt points.  If you deposit one, you can trade into ANY available red 2-BR for 1300 points, and save the extra 580 to use for something else (a one-BR green week, for example, or combine with other previous or future deposits to get another red 2-BR).  You have no idea what Hyatt actually deposits, but you don't care because all trades are point-based (there are no trade power issues).  If you use less points then you own in a given year, you can deposit the remaining points into II, but must do so 4 months (I believe) prior to your usage week.  You cannot use your Hyatt points to trade through II into another Hyatt resort -- all "Hyatt-to-Hyatt" trades must be done through Hyatt.

Starwood's Model

Starwood chooses the week to deposit for SVN members (their rules allow them to choose the resort as well, but they usually try to deposit from the same resort).  Example, you own a Phase One Platinum Week at Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach.  Platinum season is weeks 9-43 and 47.  Although a SVN member can certainly book week 27 to use, he/she will not be permitted to deposit it.  Under SVN's plan, Starwood will choose the week to deposit  -- and it's not going to be week 27, more likely week 9, which has really lousy trading power.  (Newport Coast has a very long Platinum season, right?  Newport Coast owners want to retain the right to book and deposit a prime summer week if II trading will still be trade-power based).  

Watch the II clause carefully!!  You don't want Starwood's model.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 11, 2008)

jerseygirl said:


> In the event you might want to trade out of Marriott (e.g., visit Harborside, Four Seasons Troon, etc.), you want clarification on how II deposits will be handled.
> 
> Hyatt's Model:
> 
> ...



I completely agree with this assessment.  However, I do believe that Marriott is smart enough to negotiate a no (or limited) trading power agreement.  They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power.  That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.

I do believe that the vast majority of owners will NOT opt into the program.  After 10 years, less than 50% of all weeks will convert.  That's not usual for a points program.  Marriott must sell upgrades to basically take control of the owners weeks.  When they say they are in control of internal exchanges, that is code for they control you week once you enroll unless you opt for your resort within the pre-defined use period.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 11, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> However, I do believe that Marriott is smart enough to negotiate a no (or limited) trading power agreement.  They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power.  That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.



I would hope so too Jim (just like Hyatt's agreement) ... but, you never know.  Starwood wasn't smart enough to do this ... or, more likely, didn't care enough ....

I love Starwood's resorts, but their program is terrible -- no ability to bank or borrow points, trading through II is a crapshoot -- you can get a terrible week deposited (no points).  

If Marriott is really smart --- they'll use the best parts of the other hotel brands:

Hilton -- banking and borrowing, ability to book less than a week at 9 months, great cash deals at the 30 day mark

Hyatt -- no banking, but can stretch current year's usage into 20 months, ability to book less than a week without waiting until the 90-day mark, great options through II

Starwood --- ummm ... I'm going blank here


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## sdtugger (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm trying to understand why I would want to pay to join this point system.  I know other systems have been able to get people to pay to join.  But, from the descriptions in the survey, the advantages don't help me much at all and the disadvantages are significant (no trade ups, no bonus weeks, increased fees if you don't normally do what is now included in the combined fee, etc.).  I own in Hawaii, but the example in the survey seems to be saying that you will need almost double the "normal" platinum points to trade into Hawaii.  That is a huge disadvantage for my non-Hawaii weeks.  To be asked to pay to join is just amazing.

What has happened in other systems when they've migrated to a points system?


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 11, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> I'm trying to understand why I would want to pay to join this point system.  I know other systems have been able to get people to pay to join.  But, from the descriptions in the survey, the advantages don't help me much at all and the disadvantages are significant (no trade ups, no bonus weeks, increased fees if you don't normally do what is now included in the combined fee, etc.).  I own in Hawaii, but the example in the survey seems to be saying that you will need almost double the "normal" platinum points to trade into Hawaii.  That is a huge disadvantage for my non-Hawaii weeks.  To be asked to pay to join is just amazing.
> 
> What has happened in other systems when they've migrated to a points system?



The typical model is a multi-site timeshare plan is formed and deeds are in some way committed to the new timeshare plan by being converted into the point system.  That takes work and in some cases redeeding.

The way it is sold is as if ALL units are already in the new point system.  But, they aren't.  They try to scare you into believing that over time, you won't be able to use your weeks like you always have.  However, this assumes that the majority of owners convert to points, which NEVER happens.

So, there is a new sales model put in place where owners are allowed to upgrade into the program by purchasing more points.  Sometimes they are deeded.  Sometimes they aren't.  My guess is that Marriott will retain its deeded more like Hyatt.

Based on what they are describing, I wouldn't even be concered about it.  No way they are going to get even a majority to convert.  Those who don't convert will be able to use everything they have today.

Marriott should do this program for all the new resorts just to be competitive.  And, they should buy back deeds to add into Club to make it more viable.


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## jasfan (Nov 11, 2008)

*Not Impressed*

REALLY don't like the changes.  Many fees, and they aren't cheap.  This system benefits Marriott most, financially, controlling inventory, renting excess inventory, reducing the number of nights owners actually bought.

I have used flexchange, as well as standard exchanges.  In both cases, Marriott can give me less than a week (5 or 6 days) or a lessor sized unit, and sell the excess inventory.

To the question "what will this do to resales?"  It will most likely have the strongest weeks at the strongest resorts hold value as the current system, but it will be harmful to all others.  Buying a week that will only trade for 4 or 5 days certainly can't help values.

This gives Marriott FAR TOO MUCH CONTROL of inventories at a cost to owners.  They simply can squeeze room nights out of most every owner.

I have never complained about Marriott, as I have truly liked the experience and service and system.  This change is not for good.  Outrageously one-sided at a potential cost to the majority of owners.


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## mas (Nov 11, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> No one is exploiting the system in this situation...



I didn't mean to suggest that anyone was doing something unethical.  If you can exchange a studio for a 2BR in the current system, more power to you.  I was just stating that it's one thing to _be able_ to make such an exchange, it's another thing to _expect_ this as a matter of course.


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## mas (Nov 11, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> ...The way it is sold is as if ALL units are already in the new point system.  But, they aren't.  They try to scare you into believing that over time, you won't be able to use your weeks like you always have.  However, this assumes that the majority of owners convert to points, which NEVER happens...



That's what I was thinking when I read the part about joining or not.  If a lot of existing owners decide to go for this system, what is left for those who choose not to.  If most stay with the current system, what are your odds of having available inventory when and where you want it.  That to me sounds like contention between the RCI weeks/points systems.


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## thinze3 (Nov 11, 2008)

I just finished taking this lengthy survey as well. I wrote several notes about the possibilty of being ticked off if resale owners are affected in any way by these changes, although it was never mentioned.

Basically, Marriott wants to sell you into their new points system even though you have already bought into their system once. It is merely a way to get more money out of existing owners. If I were a recent buyer of a Marriott Developer unit, especially a high priced one, and Marriott wanted even more of my money, I would be one very unhappy owner.

*The discrepency between resorts is obviously going to be a sore spot for many owners.* 

Look at this quote:


> For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:
> 
> Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
> 
> ...



*This basically says that a 2BR Platinum at Myrtle Beach will be worth less than a 2BR Platinum at Aruba.*



Terry


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## andrea t (Nov 11, 2008)

I just finished the survey and I would convert if offered.  I love my DVC point system and all the flexibilty it gives me.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 11, 2008)

There is no doubt that this gives Marriott more control of inventory which can both help and hurt owners.  Resales will definitely be hurt because membership into the point system won't transfer unless weeks are deeded into a permanent trust.  That is probably the biggest negative.

Marriott is definitely doing this to be more competitive and to have more control over resales.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 11, 2008)

I see all kinds of potential problems for Marriott owners. Marriott will tell you how many points your unit is worth. 

For years their salesmen have been advising potential customers that they can exchange their gold Park City or platinum Manor Club into Hawaii, Newport Coast or Aruba. Now Marriott will tell some platinum members that there units are worth less than platinum at other resorts. 

What about the MF's? A bronze Summit Watch owner pays the same MF as platinum. It seems like this would make it very difficult for Marriott to sell low season weeks in the future. 

I've very happy with the current Marriott & II system. I don't think I'd convert, but probably sell my timeshares if II no longer offers the exchanges I want.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 11, 2008)

If Marriott switches to a point-based exchange system, expect changes in when and how it will exercise ROFR.  

Marriott exists to make profits for its shareholders.  To the extent it can snag a resale, enhance it, and resell it at a profit, it will do so.  The "enhancement" will be participation in the points system, something that will cost Marriott nothing but something that many buyers will pay for.  It would also help create the critical mass of points inventory that some of the previous posts address.  The decision on what inventory Marriott wants to create will influence when it exercises ROFR (think: what is a tough trade to get vs. what is available as Interval Getaways).

A points system will thereby reduce the value of non-prime weeks (summer desert weeks, etc.) and destroy the value of bronze weeks; Interval will no longer be required to give those weeks any exchange preferences.


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## Steve (Nov 12, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I've very happy with the current Marriott & II system. I don't think I'd convert, but probably sell my timeshares if II no longer offers the exchanges I want.



If you believe that Marriott is serious about implementing this new program...and it certainly sounds like they are...then the time to sell is now.  If you wait until the program is rolled out, it might be too late as a lot of off season weeks will become virtually (if not completely) worthless.

I also think that the value of a lot of platinum weeks will take a beating, including those at Manor Club, Fairway Villas, Legends Edge, Horizons, Cypress Harbour, Royal Palms, Villas at Doral, etc. (Of course, you will still be able to exchange through II, but there won't be nearly as many Marriott weeks in II's inventory to exchange into.)  

Timesharing sometimes reminds me of the old Kenny Rogers' song, The Gambler:  "You've got to know when to hold 'em.  Know when to fold 'em.  Know when to walk away.  Know when to run."

Steve


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## jmatthews93 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Cost to Join Changes on the Surveys*

On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?"  My first number was $7,500!  I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number.  Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount.  I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey.  Tricky....:annoyed:


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## bobcat (Nov 12, 2008)

jmatthews93 said:


> On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?"  My first number was $7,500!  I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number.  Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount.  I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey.  Tricky....:annoyed:



That old saying still goes. " Purchase where you would vacation to and be able to drive to".  Received the survey. Do not want points. Told them so. It looks like the points would be based on the week or color you own.  Alot of owners would be unhappy. If it goes thru, you will have two systems. Points and weeks. If week owners do not go into points, there may not be too many units left for point vacations.


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## davidvel (Nov 12, 2008)

jmatthews93 said:


> On the survey, there is a question that goes something like "assuming the program had all the features you wanted, would you pay $X to join?"  My first number was $7,500!  I saw someone else mentioned their first number was $2,000, and it went down as they said "no way" to the number.  Mine also declined until I got to $750 and answered I might pay that amount.  I think the starting number may be based on the Income question they ask you at the beginning of the survey.  Tricky....:annoyed:


Tricky certainly, but this post is frankly the scariest of all of the thousands of posts on the "new points" system that preceded it. It seems the new system will be more diabolical than ever imagined.


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## iamnotshopgirl (Nov 12, 2008)

I also took the survey. The fee portion structure got my attention. Additional fees along with high Mf's and assessments? Will it become cheaper to rent vs own? Nowhere in the survey does it talk about how they would handle resales. Will they grandfather them in? What about future resales will they allow them into the point system? I'm closing on a resale now is it a waste of money? Marriott already charges for views, seasons and type of weeks when you purchase. Do they want you to pay again for the privilege? I made comments on the survey also and as to the question will you be willing to pay X$ for additional features I to hit the NO button until it reached $250. I am not committed one way or the other. I'm going to have to see the final product to make my decision but I like what I have now and will have to weigh the change to points.

bob


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## dioxide45 (Nov 12, 2008)

iamnotshopgirl said:


> I also took the survey. The fee portion structure got my attention. Additional fees along with high Mf's and assessments? Will it become cheaper to rent vs own? Nowhere in the survey does it talk about how they would handle resales. Will they grandfather them in? What about future resales will they allow them into the point system? I'm closing on a resale now is it a waste of money? Marriott already charges for views, seasons and type of weeks when you purchase. Do they want you to pay again for the privilege? I made comments on the survey also and as to the question will you be willing to pay X$ for additional features I to hit the NO button until it reached $250. I am not committed one way or the other. I'm going to have to see the final product to make my decision but I like what I have now and will have to weigh the change to points.
> 
> bob



From the survey it appears that Marriott would be willing to take money from anyone, resale or direct.


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

Steve said:


> If you believe that Marriott is serious about implementing this new program...and it certainly sounds like they are...*then the time to sell is now*.  If you wait until the program is rolled out, it might be too late as a lot of off season weeks will become virtually (if not completely) worthless.



I believe that this is *very good time to buy* and be grandfathered in as Dave's original post stated 11 months ago.



Dave M said:


> ....
> *Grandfathering?* Yes, Marriott plans to grandfather all owners, presumably as of the date the change is announced or implemented. Thus, if you buy a Marriott timeshare on the resale market now, you will - as currently planned - be exempt from the proposed restrictions on resale weeks, whatever they might be. That makes sense because it would be a public relations nightmare if Marriott implemented such a drastic change that impacted existing owners – whether resale or not.







Steve said:


> I also think that the value of a lot of platinum weeks will take a beating, including those at Manor Club, Fairway Villas, Legends Edge, Horizons, Cypress Harbour, Royal Palms, Villas at Doral, etc. (Of course, you will still be able to exchange through II, but there won't be nearly as many Marriott weeks in II's inventory to exchange into.) ...



Most likely those resorts will be similar to Starwood Starwood's second tier resorts (i.e. Broadway Plantation, Vistana) and have enough value to only trade into a 1BR at an upper tier location.

Question is: What is upper tier? Hawaii, Aruba platinum, Utah platinum? What about Hilton Head platinum or Palm Springs platinum - will they be second tier similar to the survey's suggestion of Myrtle Beach? Then you move down to South Florida (Ocean Pointe and BeachPlace Place) - will their platinum season's also be second tier?

We shall see soon enough.


Terry


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## lovearuba (Nov 12, 2008)

*maintenance*

To be fair I would hope the price it cost us to maintain our timeshares would be part of the formula.


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

lovearuba said:


> To be fair I would hope the price it cost us to maintain our timeshares would be part of the formula.




Part of the survey asked questions like how much would you be willing to pay for 3 months exclusive booking at your home resort. But, the survey didn't state whether or not thos eextra fees were in addition to your existing high Hawaii MF's or whether that was in addition to a level playing field to start with. IMO 

I wasn't willing to pay anything extra based on the assumption that my Hawaii MF's were already high.


Terry


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## sdtugger (Nov 12, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> They would probably get a feature like Diamond or WorldMark where you have a certain number of points with virtually unlimited trading power.  That would be a great feature for Marriott owners who participate.



I thought Diamond had unlimited trade power until a few months ago.  Members of my family have Diamond points.  I could see 2 bedrooms at 4 Seasons Aviara in Carlsbad with my Horizon's Branson 1 bedroom.  When I called the Marriott II desk they were willing to hold THREE 2 bedroom units and may have let me use an AC for one of them.  But, when my family members tried to use Diamond points, the most they could reserve was 1 bedrooms for the same weeks.  We called and tried every angle possible.  But, the bottom line was that my lowly Horizons Branson 1 bedroom could pull 2 bedrooms at the 4 Seasons and an unlimited number of Diamond points could only pull 1 bedrooms.  I don't want that system . . . .


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## LAX Mom (Nov 12, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Part of the survey asked questions like *how much would you be willing to pay for 3 months exclusive booking at your home resort. *But, the survey didn't state whether or not thos eextra fees were in addition to your existing high Hawaii MF's or whether that was in addition to a level playing field to start with. IMO
> 
> I wasn't willing to pay anything extra based on the assumption that my Hawaii MF's were already high.
> 
> ...


Why should Marriott owners have to pay extra for exclusive booking at their home resort?
That is just an ackowledgement by Marriott that the system doesn't work at some resorts. For instance you own platinum at Newport Coast but can't ever get the week you want. Now some owners will pay extra $$ and be able to book ahead of the rest of the owners? Sounds like a plan that will make many owners unhappy!


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## CMF (Nov 12, 2008)

*Banked Points can Expire.*

Did anyone catch this in the survey?  It's one of the downsides.

Charles


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Why should Marriott owners have to pay extra for exclusive booking at their home resort?
> That is just an ackowledgement by Marriott that the system doesn't work at some resorts. For instance you own platinum at Newport Coast but can't ever get the week you want. Now some owners will pay extra $$ and be able to book ahead of the rest of the owners? Sounds like a plan that will make many owners unhappy!



The survey did mention that there could be a cap on the number of units. I can't recall whether that was for this particular question or not, but I believe it was.


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## McFail (Nov 12, 2008)

An inherent long term problem is points inflation that we would have no control over. Marriott can decide how many points new resorts are worth without regard to comparable value. Therefore they could make a less desirable resort more valuble and enhance their sales. Then we'd have points plundering better weeks.


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## Leeman (Nov 12, 2008)

*If it ain't broke don't screw with it*

Oh great! Another Marriott enhancement. 

I wonder when this program would roll out, it sounds like it could be within the 2009 year. 

I say, add the any day check in to the existing weeks program and leave the rest of the so called enhancements out.


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## mprocopi (Nov 12, 2008)

vacationtime1 said:


> A points system will thereby reduce the value of non-prime weeks (summer desert weeks, etc.) and destroy the value of bronze weeks; Interval will no longer be required to give those weeks any exchange preferences.



I do see a flip side to this coin.   If the number of points Marriott offers for these weeks is exceedingly low, then the owners would probably choose to keep them in II.  These low value weeks might be the only trades to be had in II.

It could boost the value...


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## CMF (Nov 12, 2008)

*Is it an all in sort of deal?*

I don't remember if multiple week owners have the option of enrolling just some of their resorts?

Charles


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## Big Matt (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't think this is really any different than paying your maintence fee and not staying at your resort...or not exchanging in II once you've banked it there and letting it expire.




CMF said:


> Did anyone catch this in the survey?  It's one of the downsides.
> 
> Charles


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## Big Matt (Nov 12, 2008)

The survey didn't address, however, it does sound like you can do many things with your unit(s).  I was just assuming you could mix and match.



CMF said:


> I don't remember if multiple week owners have the option of enrolling just some of their resorts?
> 
> Charles


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## mprocopi (Nov 12, 2008)

CMF said:


> I don't remember if multiple week owners have the option of enrolling just some of their resorts?
> 
> Charles



That was my interpretation.  It says:



> An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by *enrolling one or more of their current weeks*. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.


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## darcy (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't like a lot of the details, but the feature of being able to use < 7 nights and to use the points for off/shoulder-season stays to stretch the amount of vacation time is one of the things we really like about the Hyatt system.  Since our first Hyatt purchase in June (2br August week in Key West), we have used the points for 5 nights in Breckenridge in August, 11 nights in Aspen in October, and 7 nights in Key West for Thanksgiving week.  Although we get great trades with our Marriott weeks, it is a less flexible system.


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## Empty Nest (Nov 12, 2008)

One downside for those of us that stay out of the points program is availability. Now we can call at 9:00 13 months out. Yes, we have to be there first, but I am usually pretty successful. My question is-- Do you think all of the units will be available or will Marriott take some weeks for the Point Program  before we get a chance?

Mike


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## timeos2 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Points has the edge*



Empty Nest said:


> One downside for those of us that stay out of the points program is availability. Now we can call at 9:00 13 months out. Yes, we have to be there first, but I am usually pretty successful. My question is-- Do you think all of the units will be available or will Marriott take some weeks for the Point Program  before we get a chance?
> 
> Mike



Any units that go to points will no longer be in the weeks pool.  

As for the relative value, every points system clearly shows that there are better resorts and better times at those resorts that are worth more points. A platinum week in Myrtle Beach most likely is not equal in value to a platinum week in Aruba - or the reverse. The same valuation is happening now, but not in the open. Points just makes in very clear where the value lies.  But a point is a point so two lower value weeks can still be worth more than one high value week and all would trade the same in total points required. Again in points you can save, borrow or rent to get a high use one year and take off season or smaller units to make it up another year. Weeks can't do that and it is a key feature for points.  Of course points expire at some date - so does your use week. Nothing lasts forever.   

Once you experience the ease of use of a well operated points based system you would never want to go back to weeks.


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## aka Julie (Nov 12, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Any units that go to points will no longer be in the weeks pool.



So how does Marriott decide which week in your season would go into the "pool" if you sign up for the points program?

Is it the week on your deed?  Or do they pull out a # of weeks out of the season based on how many owners signed up?  If so, I imagine they would pull out the best weeks and leave the less desirable weeks for everyone else.

I didn't receive the survey, but this sounds a lot more complicated than the current system.


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## Swice (Nov 12, 2008)

*Giving up ultimate control?*

Once a resort is "sold out," the "owners" become the full Board of Directors.    In theory-- the Board of Directors are the ones ultimately in charge.   And while it's a threat of "last resort," the Board of Directors can now threaten to replace Marriott as the management company.

But if owners are tied to Marriott's internal trading system, then basically, in the future, boards will not be able to threaten to replace Marriott as the management company.   So the owners really would not be ultimately in charge of their own property.

So it seems to me, Marriott will be locking up a permanent revenue source because we'd have to keep them and they could do whatever they wanted.

thoughts??  

But on a basic level... I see advantages and disadvantages to the points system.   I am certainly not thrilled with the idea of paying to join!

I take it we would have to pay for two systems?   Internal Marriott and Interval?     We have scored some fun places outside the Marriott system (trades and getaways), so I'm not sure I want to give up Interval.


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> ....
> Once you experience the ease of use of a well operated points based system you would never want to go back to weeks.



John, you offer incouragement. What are we waiting for? Let's roll with it!

Just like we all learned to be good Marriott buyers and traders, we Tuggers shall also soon be "experts" in the in new points system. Good or bad, Im ready. I just hope to get closed on my MBP week before the changes take effect. Actually, I may look for another Marriott TS to get grandfathered in before the changes take effect. 


Terry


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## bogeygolf (Nov 12, 2008)

mas said:


> I didn't mean to suggest that anyone was doing something unethical.  If you can exchange a studio for a 2BR in the current system, more power to you.  I was just stating that it's one thing to _be able_ to make such an exchange, it's another thing to _expect_ this as a matter of course.



I agree with dioxide, no one is exploiting any loopholes and I don't think most people who take advantage of trading a studio for a 2bd room expects this as a matter of course.  But at least with the current system, you have an *opportunity* for a better trade.  With the new point system, you will not have this opportunity!

Please understand that this is not a good system for owners and we are all getting a bad deal if you sign up for this!


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## davidvel (Nov 12, 2008)

aka Julie said:


> So how does Marriott decide which week in your season would go into the "pool" if you sign up for the points program?
> 
> Is it the week on your deed?  Or do they pull out a # of weeks out of the season based on how many owners signed up?  If so, I imagine they would pull out the best weeks and leave the less desirable weeks for everyone else.


Technically, Marriott cannot override/replace the deeded reservation system (ie. 12/13 months prior). However, they arguably could be a proxy for you and then reserve a particular week exactly 12 months out THROUGH THEIR COMPUTER SYSTEM which to no one's surprise would beat everyone else out... Something for "non-participants" to pay CLOSE attention to. 



Swice said:


> But if owners are tied to Marriott's internal trading system, then basically, in the future, boards will not be able to threaten to replace Marriott as the management company.   So the owners really would not be ultimately in charge of their own property.
> 
> So it seems to me, Marriott will be locking up a permanent revenue source because we'd have to keep them and they could do whatever they wanted.
> 
> thoughts??


While I agree that Marriott could threaten owners of this (or include it in the terms of the program), it could not STOP an HOA from using a new manager.  Marriott's system would really be no different in principle than Redweek. Marriott could choose to include resorts that are old Marriotts (not that I think they would) just as Redweek uses deposits from all differnet brands. The HOA could choose to cut ties with Marriott in accord with any contraact it has.


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## CatJ114683 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Uneasy about the Point structure*

We also received the survey. We have owned a single week 2 bdrm @MGV since 2001.  For us, the points and the micro - splitting seem very complex.  We would never want a time share facility for a single or 2 night stay.  It would be wasted.  We would not be able to stock or utilize the kitchen and thats a lot of points to use for a microwave!  If we travel on long weekends, we don't want a kitchen anyway... and certainly we don't need laundry in the unit and I would want housekeeping for a get away of such a short duration.  One year, we did split 3 nights / 4 nights to try it.  It was a lot of work for too short a vacation time.  Unfortunately, we now live some distance from where we purchased, and just hopping into the car for a couple of days of pool use is out of the question and we 'depend' on being able to trade.  As many other tuggers have mentioned over the past months, as Marriott continues to 'deflate' the value of their points, that particular system seems to have lost it's luster for us.   Anyway, there is no doubt that whoever reads our survey will know we are not interested.


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## CMF (Nov 12, 2008)

That's right.  The house keeping bill is going to go way up if the staff has to clean the units two or three times a week when, for the most part, they only clean once a week now.

Charles


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

davidvel said:


> ... Marriott's system would really be no different in principle than *Redweek*. Marriott could choose to include resorts that are old Marriotts (not that I think they would) just as Redweek uses deposits from all differnet brands. The HOA could choose to cut ties with Marriott in accord with any contraact it has.



I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

I would imagine it would be closer to that of Starwood than Redweek. With Starwood Vacation Network a 2BR platinum plus at an upper tier resort (Hawaii) gets 148,100 points (StarOptions), while a 1BR at that same resort gets 81,000 points.

At Myrtle Beach (which Marriott used as an example in their survey) a 2BR platinum unit gets 81,000 points (non-lockoff). This is enough points to get a 1BR for a full week in Hawaii. With the new Marriott system you should be able to bank (and/or maybe borrow) enough points to get a 2BR in Hawaii.

See this Starwood chart.


Terry


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## CatJ114683 (Nov 12, 2008)

The other thing I did not like about the points system was also pointed out by a previous post.  The older your home resort gets, the less value it will have as newer TS facilities are rolled out.   So if you have been a long time owner at an established resort, you could end up losing big in a trading situation, even if you own the most platinum of platinum weeks.   What about the Florida Club? How would points effect that?  Oh, let me guess, there would be an additional charge on top of that additional charge.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 12, 2008)

CMF said:


> Did anyone catch this in the survey?  It's one of the downsides.
> 
> Charles



Where was the survey?


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## Dave M (Nov 12, 2008)

As explained in early posts in this thread, the survey was e-mailed to those Marriott owners who have reported receiving it (and presumably to many other owers, too.)


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## timeos2 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Things don't change*



CatJ114683 said:


> The other thing I did not like about the points system was also pointed out by a previous post.  The older your home resort gets, the less value it will have as newer TS facilities are rolled out.   So if you have been a long time owner at an established resort, you could end up losing big in a trading situation, even if you own the most platinum of platinum weeks.   What about the Florida Club? How would points effect that?  Oh, let me guess, there would be an additional charge on top of that additional charge.



This is often stated by opponents of points systems but its not true.  Unless the resort is allowed to deteriorate it will maintain its value. And again the value would also drop in weeks if that happened - you wouldn't be able to get the same high quality or newer resorts with a lower quality or older week due to trade value either. Again points simply openly quantify what you own and give you far more options than weeks to "adjust" - and it doesn't have to involve buying more points (although to hear the sales people talk it would).  We purchased our points in the Wyndham system over 12 years ago. The points value has never changed and those points have been able to reserve every resort - new, old or in between, we've ever wanted as a point is a point. If you have enough you get what you want. If you don't rent, save, borrow - you don't have to buy more.  Until you use it it's hard to imagine how easy and clear cut points systems are. 

Yes newer resorts may cost more points than an older one just like it costs more to buy.  That doesn't mean your older resort is worth "less".  It means you have to plan a little more to allow for those higher point requirements that year. Its not hard.


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## GetawaysRus (Nov 12, 2008)

*I feel like a piñata*

I feel like a piñata.  Everyone wants to keep whacking me as hard as possible until all the money falls out of my pockets.

If it's a government entity, they want to raise my taxes.

If it's a business entity that I deal with, they want find ways to add new fees to get more money out of me.  And usually, right along with those new shiny fees, along come "program enhancements" that really mean a reduced level of benefit to me.

It's not fun being a piñata.


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## smithde (Nov 12, 2008)

*Adverse selection in dual system?*

I'm not familiar with programs other than Marriott's.  Is anyone else running a dual system with weeks and points options?  I'm concerned there will be adverse selection.  People who want to trade out of high end/value weeks will opt for points (to get more value for their unit), while lower end/value weeks will opt for the existing system (hoping to trade up).  Net result, lower value trades available through the existing system ultimately forcing people to the points system.  But that's probably the intent, right?


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## lovearuba (Nov 12, 2008)

*thanks for the laugh*

You are so right!  I love the honesty!!


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## littlestar (Nov 12, 2008)

GetawaysRus said:


> I feel like a piñata.  Everyone wants to keep whacking me as hard as possible until all the money falls out of my pockets.
> 
> If it's a government entity, they want to raise my taxes.
> 
> ...



Wonderfully said. That's the way I feel, too. Thanks for the laugh.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 12, 2008)

You know what you have now, and how it currently works.

The change to the new system will take some getting used to and it will be nice to get the grinches out in the open and resolved (I'm sure something adverse will pop up).

I'll stick with the old as long as Marriott plans to charge a fee to experience the new.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 12, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> This is often stated by opponents of points systems but its not true.  Unless the resort is allowed to deteriorate it will maintain its value. And again the value would also drop in weeks if that happened - you wouldn't be able to get the same high quality or newer resorts with a lower quality or older week due to trade value either. Again points simply openly quantify what you own and give you far more options than weeks to "adjust" - and it doesn't have to involve buying more points (although to hear the sales people talk it would).  We purchased our points in the Wyndham system over 12 years ago. The points value has never changed and those points have been able to reserve every resort - new, old or in between, we've ever wanted as a point is a point. If you have enough you get what you want. If you don't rent, save, borrow - you don't have to buy more.  Until you use it it's hard to imagine how easy and clear cut points systems are.
> 
> Yes newer resorts may cost more points than an older one just like it costs more to buy.  That doesn't mean your older resort is worth "less".  It means you have to plan a little more to allow for those higher point requirements that year. Its not hard.



Just curious you talk about how great a point system is and I agree I like the point system I am part of.  However, you don't (unless I missed it) say whether you'd pay $2000 to join that point system at a timeshare that you already own?  

I didn't have to pay extra to join the point system that I'm part of.  I think, paying extra to be part of this point system won't benefit me.  I didn't get the survey (I hope, I do as I don't want to pay more for a timeshare I already own).  Can you imagine paying $2000 more for a timeshare that is 10 years old to have the points be worthless?


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## JimIg23 (Nov 12, 2008)

What if only 20% of the owners go into the new system.  Wouldn't that severely limit what you can trade into with points?  I wonder if you even could lose the ability to get a good week at your home resort during your season.

Also, would Marriott take all the premier week for the system.  Lets say in NCV, most of July/August, then the rest of the platinum goes to the non-point people?


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

If Marriott implements this program, and you a Marriott timeshare that you use or trade regularly, you will join. Might not be the first year, but you will join.  IMO


Terry


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## timeos2 (Nov 12, 2008)

*Yes, a reasonable fee to join is worth it*



ciscogizmo1 said:


> Just curious you talk about how great a point system is and I agree I like the point system I am part of.  However, you don't (unless I missed it) say whether you'd pay $2000 to join that point system at a timeshare that you already own?
> 
> I didn't have to pay extra to join the point system that I'm part of.  I think, paying extra to be part of this point system won't benefit me.  I didn't get the survey (I hope, I do as I don't want to pay more for a timeshare I already own).  Can you imagine paying $2000 more for a timeshare that is 10 years old to have the points be worthless?



Our Wyndham's (Fairfield then) came with points.  We did pay - $1100 - to join the Sunterra (now Diamond) system in 1998 - 6 years after we purchased the original. That seemed like a lot then but 10 years later, compared to the annual fees and the costs if we were paying for RCI/II memberships (paid by our points systems) it was a bargain.  Adjusted for inflation $2000 seems reasonable for all the additional features you get with points. We also paid $1000 in 2004 to get into RCI Points - again because using points is SO much easier than trying to get fair value out of week for week exchanges. Most of our "trades" now aren't - we just use different resorts within the various points systems.  

One thing I would advise against (and it wasn't mentioned in the questionnaire) is any group that wants your deed to join.  The new Diamond (former Sunterra) club demands that you give up your deed and pay to join. NEVER a good idea IMO.  Keep your deeded rights and voting rights. If they demand it walk.


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## californiagirl (Nov 12, 2008)

One of the benefits of Disney Vacation Club is that the points do not depreciate.  At a given resort if they increase the point cost for one type of unit (either for size or season or view), then they must decrease the points for another type of unit (for either size, season or view) at that same resort.  There is a set number of points they can move around.  I'm not sure I am explaining this well. 

All I know is that I would not be happy if my villa's points were devalued like the Marriott Rewards Point system!!  

I think I would like the flexibility of shorter stays and checking in on any day of the week.   

FWIW, I did not receive the survey and we own 3 developer weeks.


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## Dave M (Nov 12, 2008)

If you are an owner and haven't received an invitation to participate in the survey, it might yet happen. Mine showed up in my inbox at 9:08 p.m EST this evening.


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## wbrown (Nov 12, 2008)

Marriott has lost a lot of credibility with me with the way they introduced the recent devaluation of points as an enhancement of the program.  

Frankly I don't trust what they say at face value and would have to see the fine print of any proposal from them.

Having said that, I am completely happy with the way it is now with my weeks of ownership and exchanging through II and I see no need to change anything just to pad Marriotts bottom line at our expense.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 12, 2008)

californiagirl said:


> One of the benefits of Disney Vacation Club is that the points do not depreciate.  At a given resort if they increase the point cost for one type of unit (either for size or season or view), then they must decrease the points for another type of unit (for either size, season or view) at that same resort.  There is a set number of points they can move around.  I'm not sure I am explaining this well.
> 
> All I know is that I would not be happy if my villa's points were devalued like the Marriott Rewards Point system!!
> 
> ...



Ahhhh but they do. If you want to reserve in to BLT the points you have for a 2BR at an older resort may not get you in to a 2BR at the same time for the same amount of time at BLT.


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 12, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> What if only 20% of the owners go into the new system.  Wouldn't that severely limit what you can trade into with points?  I wonder if you even could lose the ability to get a good week at your home resort during your season.
> 
> Also, would Marriott take all the premier week for the system.  Lets say in NCV, most of July/August, then the rest of the platinum goes to the non-point people?



This is what concerns me. I've purchased multiple weeks to make sure that I get the weeks I want. I'm not sure how its going to effect prime float weeks. I have a bad feeling as suggested above that some will be stolen for the points program lessening multi and single week owners the opportunity to get prime float weeks. This better not be the case. 

To me this is an obvious attempt to increase revenue. Unless everyone agrees it shouldn't be implemented. Why should it benefit some and not all?


Regards.
Joe


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## timeos2 (Nov 12, 2008)

MOXJO7282 said:


> This is what concerns me. I've purchased multiple weeks to make sure that I get the weeks I want. I'm not sure how its going to effect prime float weeks. I have a bad feeling as suggested above that some will be stolen for the points program lessening multi and single week owners the opportunity to get prime float weeks. This better not be the case.
> 
> To me this is an obvious attempt to increase revenue. Unless everyone agrees it shouldn't be implemented. Why should it benefit some and not all?
> 
> ...



It's just another exchange option. The only weeks that can be committed are whatever week the owner controls. If its a prime week (worth the most points so most likely to go over first) its theirs to do with as they please - give to points or II or use it - you have no rights to it. If the owner chooses to put it in a pool - weeks or points - then you can use that system to reserve it. Bt no one is getting a new or unfair benefit. In fact to get those points the prime owner (or any other owner) will pay for the option. Just like RCI Points, Sunterra, etc.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 13, 2008)

I just completed the survey (apparently I missed it yesterday and they sent another link). It seems that the point system would benefit those who purchased expensive (Hawaii) weeks from Marriott. The rest of us would have to bank our points to get an exchange into Hawaii. 

I prefer the current system with II and make most of my exchanges during Flexchange. But there are many platinum Marriott weeks that won't be as valuable as Hawaii. With II you still had a chance of an exchange with your Manor Club platinum or Hilton Head gold. There have been many reports on TUG of Marriott owners getting some great exchanges with II, and not just during Flexchange. With a point system that option for an upgrade won't exist, at least without using (or purchasing) more points. I'd rather stick with the current system and II.

I also don't care about the short stay option. It sounds great, but I'm sure would be subject to availability. If I'm staying for a weekend or just a few nights, I'd rather just pay cash and rent a room at a hotel. I like timeshares (extra bedrooms, kitchen & washer/dryer) for a week long stay.


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## m61376 (Nov 13, 2008)

The proposed system, as outlined, seemingly attempts to level the fairness of all trades, so to speak, with Marriott determining the relative value. I think a large part of the problem here is that purchases have been made with the understanding that exchanges could be made by giving up one week for another, with the ability to "trade up" being determined by the free market (supply and demand) rather than an externally imposed valuation.

Marriott clearly intends to differentiate between resorts, seasons and even view. Buying a Platinum week one place will no longer give you at least the possibility of trading for a Platinum week elsewhere and owners of lesser weeks will certainly be downgraded in either length of stay or unit size, or both. While the current system never guaranteed trades, the option of "trading up," either in size or season or location was always at least a potential option (again, dependent on market conditions); under the proposed system even if such upgrades were, in fact, available, they would lie fallow.

Marriott seems to be clearly saying that even Platinum weeks vary in value between resorts. While this has been in effect previously, reflected in trade value, it was the fluctuating marketplace (again, the demand at any given time for any given property) that helped determine valuation, and not artificially determined by Marriott. What is particularly worrisome to me, especially in light of the recent devaluation of reward points, is what happens 5 or 10 years down the road. Any new resort will cost Marriott more and will likely sell for more money. We bought with the understanding/promise that we would be able to exchange into new resorts as they become available. In an effort to sell new properties, will Marriott assign more points to new developments in the future, so that even a top Platinum week now may only have enough value to trade for 4 or 5 days at newer resorts?

So, while on one hand there is some sense in assigning different values to weeks at different resorts (after all, purchase prices differed), I personally think that current owners will suffer and, as time goes on, will find their property values dwindle (much like the way Marriott has devalued the benefit of trading for reward points). A basic attraction of the Marriott system heretofore has been the concept of a week for a week, and letting market demand determine the outcome of trade requests. Personally, I think Marriott assigning valuation will be bad for owners.

I know people have mentioned that Hyatt and Hilton have done this with some success. However, keep in mind the number of properties. I think given Marriott's vastly greater size the logistics of this will potentially be a nightmare and I also think that many owners will get shafted. 

I think anyone who owns less than a premium property (as determined by Marriott) will land up getting short-shifted  under this plan. As Marriott tries to equalize trades, a lot of units will sit empty that would otherwise have had happy owners trading into, either under Flexchange or off-season vacationers, who managed to trade up. Let's face it- while trading up was never guaranteed, as pointed out, the ability to do so on occasion is due to the fact that someone with higher trade power, for whatever reason at any given time, didn't make the request. The marketplace changes and demand varies from day to day. Marriott would be artificially setting value and not allowing fluctuations in demand determine value. 

And, while varying days of arrival and lengths of stay would be theoretically nice, I am concerned about its implementation on a practical basis. Would it make reservations during prime-time even more difficult? Narrowing reservation days and having reservations of uniform lengths streamlines the process. I'm not sure that increased flexibility is worth risking making reservations more difficult to obtain. Something at least to consider.


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## skidoc (Nov 13, 2008)

I received the survey even though I'm not a Marriott owner; I have been to a couple of sales presentations over the past couple of years.  We decided to buy DVC over Marriott because of the flexibility of the points system and the fact that we were able to dip our toes into timesharing through the purchase of a relatively small number of points (equivalent to an EOY Marriott purchase).

The survey felt like they were describing many aspects of the Disney system.  I would imagine that we would have gone with Marriott over Disney if the points system was available at that time; mostly because of the superior nature of the Marriott resorts and the large number of destinations.  

I can't imagine how they will transition current owners to the new system.  We have been looking around for an EOY Marriott property (resale, of course) to complement our DVC; my gut feeling is telling me to hold off for a while to see how this plays out.....


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## mpizza (Nov 13, 2008)

I received the survey and completed it.  My concern is that I feel forced to join just to keep the ownership rights I already own.  If I don't go along with the "enhanced" points program, my ownership will lose its inherent value; i.e., I always reserve two weeks concurrently at my home resort during a holiday week for an extended family trip.  If most Platinum owners sign-up and have Home Resort Priority, my chances of reserving those two prime Platinum weeks may diminish significantly.

On the plus side, I also own a Silver Marriott week that I use for trading, I would like the ability to break that week up for weekend stays.

Maria


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## dioxide45 (Nov 13, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I prefer the current system with II and make most of my exchanges during Flexchange. But there are many platinum Marriott weeks that won't be as valuable as Hawaii. With II you still had a chance of an exchange with your Manor Club platinum or Hilton Head gold. There have been many reports on TUG of Marriott owners getting some great exchanges with II, and not just during Flexchange. With a point system that option for an upgrade won't exist, at least without using (or purchasing) more points. I'd rather stick with the current system and II.



With travel to Hawaii down you will probably see a drop in occupancy in Hawaii Marriott's with this. Currently it is easier to trade in to Hawaii with II. If a plan is implimented where Marriott assigns more points to Marriott, not only will people not be able to afford to fly there, they may not have anough points to get in there either and just won't bother.


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## m61376 (Nov 13, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> With travel to Hawaii down you will probably see a drop in occupancy in Hawaii Marriott's with this. Currently it is easier to trade in to Hawaii with II. If a plan is implimented where Marriott assigns more points to Marriott, not only will people not be able to afford to fly there, they may not have anough points to get in there either and just won't bother.



That's part of the point I was trying to make. Fixing a set number of points to Hawaii weeks will hamper trading into Hawaii even during those times when Hawaii weeks are less desirable. Weeks will remain vacant rather than being available for someone to "luck out" with an upgrade.

Similarly, since all vacation weeks in Hawaii are considered Platinum (except for a few holiday weeks) and cost the same to purchase (except the new Maui units), then I would assume owners would all receive the same number of points for their Platinum week. On the flip side, all Platinum weeks should "cost" the same number of points to trade into. So- one would need as powerful a trader to get a summer week as an April or September week (since the point cost would be the same). If they assigned a different point cost for trading in at different times of the year, then they would be admitting that not all Platinum weeks, which cost the same, have equal value- a catch 22. 

Sounds like a lot of frustration. The only "winners" in this system will be owners of peak properties, who will be able to get more than a week anywhere else. But- today's best properties may not hold the same value 5 years down the road, when the newer resorts get - and cost- more points.


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## littlestar (Nov 13, 2008)

skidoc said:


> I received the survey even though I'm not a Marriott owner; I have been to a couple of sales presentations over the past couple of years.  We decided to buy DVC over Marriott because of the flexibility of the points system and the fact that we were able to dip our toes into timesharing through the purchase of a relatively small number of points (equivalent to an EOY Marriott purchase).
> 
> The survey felt like they were describing many aspects of the Disney system.  I would imagine that we would have gone with Marriott over Disney if the points system was available at that time; mostly because of the superior nature of the Marriott resorts and the large number of destinations.



What I like about Marriott compared to DVC is that the maintenance fees for the larger units aren't anywhere near what DVC charges. You'll pay almost double in maintenance fees for a DVC 2 bedroom over an average Marriott (excluding the Hawaii Marriotts). You pay a premium in maintenance fees for a point system. 

We own both DVC and Marriott. We usually stay in studios when we use our DVC points (to stretch the points) and when we trade our Marriott I lock it off and we get to stay in 1 and 2 bedrooms. It sounds like I may only be able to stay in Marriott efficiencies if they implement this points system.  Especially if most resorts are assigned low values because they aren't in Hawaii.


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## Big Matt (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm a glass is half full kind of guy, so I'll respond to this with who I think will "win" in this new game they are proposing.

1) people who own 2BR units that can take 1BR and studios and still be happy
2) people who can/like to travel in the off or shoulder seasons
3) people who will be happy going to the highest demand locations for fewer than seven days
4) people who want to lock in stays at their home resort for the same weeks for up to three years in a row
5) ...and this one hasn't been discussed at all...people with tons of reward points who can supplement thier stays with hotel/timeshare points redemptions.  Given the new model, it would seem that one could stay somewhere like Aruba for a shorter stay (say 3-4 days) and then stay at the hotel on points (no blackouts, and no double points required in new system).  

I totally agree that those with the most points going in have an advantage, but you get the most value by following numbers 1-5 above.




m61376 said:


> The only "winners" in this system will be owners of peak properties, who will be able to get more than a week anywhere else. But- today's best properties may not hold the same value 5 years down the road, when the newer resorts get - and cost- more points.


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## thinze3 (Nov 13, 2008)

It appears that there is a great amount anxiety here, as people do not yet know the value of what they actually own within the upcoming system. It also appears that some are worried about the possibilty of not being able to trade that 2BR Manor Club (example) for that 2BR Hawaii anymore.

Most Manor Club to Hawaii exchanges are 2BR for 1BR now and will probably continue to be so with the new system. Yes, we Tuggers seem to know the system a bit better that the average Joe and can pull of a 2BR for 2BR trade every now and then, *but should it be expected*? When Manor Club owners paid half as much upfront and pay half as much annually as Hawaii owners, again should the 2BR for 2BR trade be expected? (please do not tell me what the salesman promised)

Another thing; The complaints all these years about people booking the most prime 4th of July weeks at Manor Club, only to deposit them with II in hopes of landing a 2BR "upgrade" at Hawaii (or wherever), obviously have been heard by Marriott. Manor Club owners who bought to actually use their weeks every now and then, may now be able to go to their timeshares more often on the dates they want to go now - i.e. July 4th.

Suggestion: If you want to have higher annual points, I would suggest that you purchase a premium property now (Hawaii, Aruba platinum, Utah ski, etc..) before the changes take effect.  Better yet, purchase two lessor units at half the cost and fees and this will give you more flexibilty, of course you may lose the priority period of the higher resort.

Terry

PS -
Please understand that I am not picking on Manor Club, only using it as an example due to its popularity. I too traded a MLE 2BR for a KoOlina 2BR for next summer and realize that I will be in that same boat as Manor Club.


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## bookworm (Nov 13, 2008)

I am not very supportive of this change. What I like about the Wyndham points program which I know something about is the ability to book shorter stays which suits our lifestyle. I also like depositing smaller amounts of points into the external exchange company and getting full weeks back (II tends to curb this a bit compared to RCI - but many fantastic opportunities are still available.) I like the opportunity to rent points from other owners and rent out the points I don't need in a given year. I like choosing the size without the guesswork of external exchanges. What I don't like is the constant points creep that goes on with new resorts and the fact that they can take unreserved dates at about 2 months out and rent them to the public. Wyndham has also found ways to add extra fees with huge increases that we have absolutely no control over (like expensive guest certificates, extra transactions, points rental, etc.) Hopefully Marriott would have some self-control in this regard.

If I recall correctly, the survey is saying they may give the first several months priority to those who are willing to book seven days. This will make shorter stays more difficult to get and may defeat a main benefit to points. With Wyndham, any prime season time can be booked in 3 or 4 day increments right off the bat. Non-prime season can be booked in 2 or more days. THIS is flexibility which provides opportunities for weekends or Mon-Wed. stays, etc. (Though it sounds like they may be trying to address weekend stays.)  
Based on Marriott's legal documents, would there be anything keeping them from renting out inventory that has not been reserved to the general public as check in dates draw near? If not - definitely a negative.
Any thoughts on how they might handle transfers of points from one account to another? Nothing about this in the survey that I saw.

I can only imagine that resorts like ours, Horizons at Branson platinum, will not be awarded many points compared to other places. If we can trade into many locations in prime season now plus get ACs, why would those of us owning in these places want this new system? Let's say I want to exchange into Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head in June, but I only have enough points for 5 days. However, I can't even make an exchange for less than a week until 6 months out. There will most likely be no inventory left and no way for me to just choose a 1 bedroom instead which I might have considered. Not a good deal. Right now I have a much better chance of getting this exchange through II plus an AC as a bonus.

From a consumer's perspective, there are other good points systems already out there to supplement Marriott weeks.


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## CMF (Nov 13, 2008)

*Will Marriott ever disclose the survey results?*

I'm wondering if this is really a survey or if this is just Marriott's way of breaking the news to owners that the change is on the horizon.  They can cite the "survey' when responding to unhappy owners - "Sorry Mr./Mrs Grumpy, but owners overwhelmingly voted in favor of the new system."

Charles "Not Always Paranoid" Marriott Owner.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 13, 2008)

Marriott will never disclose the results of their survey, but you can bet that they are monitoring all these threads on TUG.


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## littlestar (Nov 13, 2008)

Marriott maintenance fees are considered higher than most well run independent resorts. Why would I want to own say Manor Club or Horizons Branson and pay Marriott fees if my resort will only get me maybe five days of vacation time at another Marriott location? Wouldn't that discourage ownership at those resorts?

What would happen to silver/bronze season owners at Hilton Head? Aren't their fees pretty much the same as platinum owners? Would the platinum owners end up having to pay more maintenance fees in the long haul if no one wants to bother owning silver or bronze season anymore? If you can't get any value out of it, why pay Marriott fees?


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## bookworm (Nov 13, 2008)

littlestar said:


> What would happen to silver/bronze season owners at Hilton Head? Aren't their fees pretty much the same as platinum owners? Would the platinum owners end up having to pay more maintenance fees in the long haul if no one wants to bother owning silver or bronze season anymore? If you can't get any value out of it, why pay Marriott fees?




Wyndham resales point to exactly what happens. Hardly anyone will touch the off season weeks that have converted into points because of the huge maintenance fees per point (of course, hopefully Marriott will retain its value better than Wyndham has). This affects the number of delinquent owners who no longer find a value in paying their fees. The goal in a points are points world has less to do with what resort you own (unless you are determined to get a particular resort so you need advanced priority) and more to do with keeping your fees low. What may be highly valued now may not seem valuable in points and vice versa.

I have to wonder how many will actually be willing to make the switch, especially if there is a cost involved. Even now Wyndham has lots of fixed weeks that were never converted. From what I can tell in these forums, there are plenty of Marriott owners who love going to their particular resorts for a week every year and may not prefer points.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 13, 2008)

Interesting note.  I just received an e-mail with a link to a survey regarding "proposed enhancements."  I wen through the initial questions which were mostly geared at my experience with timeshares (how many presentations...etc.) as well as which companies I own with.  Then the survey ended.  Never a single question about any Marriott enhancements.  

I have a feeling they may have reached their "cap" on experienced timeshare owners responses.  I JUST closed on a Marriott resale this summer and I suspect they may have targeted me thinking I would add a "non-tug" type perspective...once I confirmed I owned 3 timeshares in 3 different systems (WM, SVN, Marriott), they had no interest in my opinion.


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## Pit (Nov 13, 2008)

My observations with the proposed point system...

1. You lose the ability to trade (one-for-one) into high demand resorts and newer resorts, as the point values required will be set high and increase over time for new resorts. New resorts, I guess, would be sold into the point system.

2. Availability will be reduced for all owners, because this will split the deposit inventory between weeks owners and points owners.

3. All weeks in the point system will be devalued, if membership in the point program (or the right to join) does not transfer with a resale.

4. Not clear to me how a points owner would trade outside of Marriott. I'm assuming this remains with II, but would you get a week deposit or a set of points (and how many points are required for an II xchg?).

Hard to evaluate without the details.


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## aka Julie (Nov 13, 2008)

CMF said:


> I'm wondering if this is really a survey or if this is just Marriott's way of breaking the news to owners that the change is on the horizon.  They can cite the "survey' when responding to unhappy owners - "Sorry Mr./Mrs Grumpy, but owners overwhelmingly voted in favor of the new system."
> 
> Charles "Not Always Paranoid" Marriott Owner.



I was thinking the exact same thing.  We'll never know the results, but Marriott will say this is what the owners want.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 13, 2008)

I can't imagine anyone would purchase a low season at Marriott resorts in the future. Why would you buy a silver/bronze or even gold week and pay the same MF as the platinum owners? 

With the current II system people were willing to pay the MF for a silver Marriott because they had a chance at an upgrade. I was just looking at II and there are numerous upgrades available with my SW studio and 1 bedroom units. I can get larger units well into the spring at many desirable locations. Once Marriott controls the points system, my SW silver won't trade well at all. 

Those who own the top-tier resorts will be the winners in a points based system. The rest of us will get less vacation days for our MF.

The other problem with this points transition is availablity with Marriott. If a small number of people switch to points, Marriott won't have many units available for owners to use. You might have the points for Hawaii or Aruba, but no units are available. 

Thanks Marriott, but I'll stick with II.


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## mprocopi (Nov 13, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I can't imagine anyone would purchase a low season at Marriott resorts in the future. Why would you buy a silver/bronze or even gold week and pay the same MF as the platinum owners?
> 
> With the current II system people were willing to pay the MF for a silver Marriott because they had a chance at an upgrade. I was just looking at II and there are numerous upgrades available with my SW studio and 1 bedroom units. I can get larger units well into the spring at many desirable locations. Once Marriott controls the points system, my SW silver won't trade well at all.



I was noodling over this same question and I re-read the survey.  I think their answer to this in the points system is the "Preferred Resort Priority".  



> Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. *Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts*?



Now I think it boils down to how much would they charge for this upgrade.


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## davidvel (Nov 13, 2008)

mpizza said:


> My concern is that I feel forced to join just to keep the ownership rights I already own.  If I don't go along with the "enhanced" points program, my ownership will lose its inherent value; i.e., I always reserve two weeks concurrently at my home resort during a holiday week for an extended family trip.  If most Platinum owners sign-up and have Home Resort Priority, my chances of reserving those two prime Platinum weeks may diminish significantly.


As noted in my earlier post (http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=621173&postcount=67) this can't happen under any new points system, *unless Marriott rigs the system to violate your rights to reserve your week like everyone else.* If Marriott gives priority to those who pay them money and join their new system it would be in violation of your deeded rights, and an unfair business practice. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't put it past them, but doing so would have nothing to do with a new system. (They could illegally rig the system now if they want to get better weeks for those who trade for points, etc. and then rent out for more $$$.)


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## davidvel (Nov 13, 2008)

Another thought as to whether this system is good, and the issue of people paying twice to join the new Marriott system and II.

IMO a lot of "value" for Marriott trades with II is derived by the Marriott name and quality of its resorts. In other words, many people outside of Marriott create demand for the "lesser" (non-platinum) Marriott weeks. This allows many people to trade lock-offs and 1BR Marriott properties for 2BR units at other decent (albeit non-Marriott resorts). Or trade a garden variety week for a non-Marriott Hawaii or ski-area week in prime time, which could never be done inside Marriott. Not so with a Marriott only points system, but the opposite.

Just keep in mind that the new system will just be another system, like(or unlike) all the rest out there that can be used for trading your week.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 13, 2008)

mprocopi said:


> I was noodling over this same question and I re-read the survey.  I think their answer to this in the points system is the "Preferred Resort Priority".
> 
> 
> 
> Now I think it boils down to how much would they charge for this upgrade.



Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?


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## SueDonJ (Nov 13, 2008)

Hmmmmm.  We weren't part of the survey.  This is a motherload of info, and one more reason to be so thankful that TUG is a resource.  I'm printing this out so that Don and I can read it in much more detail than just my browsing through here today.

The only points system I know anything about is DVC - does it help me to compare what you're all saying to that, or should I be looking at it in a whole different light?

Love, love, love the pinata comedy!
Susan


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## thinze3 (Nov 13, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?



It will get worked out.
A 2BR bronze at your resort may equal a 1BR during high season at your resort or a studio during mid season at a higher resort. They will make the math work.


Terry


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## mprocopi (Nov 13, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Yes but your silver/bronze week would still have a low amount of points. You might have "Preferred Resort Priority" for Hawaii (50,000 points) but your silver week is only worth 10,000 points. What good will it do you to have priority if you don't have enough points to make the trade?




I see what you mean.  Yeah,  I misunderstood what was meant by resort priority there.


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## Ggatorgirl (Nov 13, 2008)

*DVC*

We have been DVC owners for over 15 years and love the flexibility and simplicity of the system.  It has always been a points system, so there has never been any conversion-from-a-weeks system issues.  There are 3 or 4 resorts currently for 'new' sales, a robust non-DVC resale market and a more limited resale market by Disney.

Yes, the cost of buying a 'point' has gone up over time and varies, in both the direct and resale markets, based on the resort you are buying into. Resevations into your 'home' resort are allowed at 12 months, into other DVC resorts at 7 months.  You can bank and borrow one year's worth of points, so you can acculmulate up to 3 years for a reservation.  

The number of points needed for a resevation also varies by resort  and 'season' or time of year.  There are 5 or 6 seasons, from very low (January) to peak (summer) to premimum (Spring break and Xmas).

A 7 night stay peak season 1 bdrm runs from 218 at Old Key West, the oldest resort to 313 at Animal Kingdom Lodge, the newest available one.

MFs are calculated for each resort and are assessed on a per point basis.

Exchanges into II are done primarily in one week increments, based on number of bedrooms and cost roughly what a 7 night stay at DVC would cost.

The beauty of DVC is tha it is extremely easy to determine what each stay would cost and it gives significant preference at the owner's home resort.  "Buy where you want to stay" certainly applies to DVC.

The major problem I see with MVCI adopting a point system is that people bought into the system for various reasons...some do want to stay primarily at their home resort and don't want to trade for MRPs or into II.  Others plan never to stay at their home resort and live for the art of the deal in getting the best trades and 'upgrades' into other resorts.  

There is no way Marriott is going to make even 50% of its owners happy with any changes.  Personally, I bought MVCI because I want to stay at Canyon Villas in the Spring...but have been able to book it only once in 5 years. Maybe if there were a points system, I would have a better chance of getting in there when I want because others would not be booking the prime weeks only so they could trade them into II.

For those Flexchangers who have silver or bronze ownership weeks at the lesser resorts, moving to a points system would reduce their trading power.  But for those of us who bought the Platinum weeks at the newer resorts because we want to stay there, the points might work to our advantage...providing it is done at minimal cost.


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## littlestar (Nov 13, 2008)

Trading DVC points on a regular basis through II is not something I would want to do. You don't get bonus weeks, you can't do full week exchanges yourself online (you have to call Member Services), and you can't upsize a studio into a 1 or 2 bedroom in flexchange - really pretty sad when you consider what DVC maintenance fees run. I think it's because Disney wants complete control. Right now I love the way Marriott (any Marriott) trades in II. I hope Marriott is not going the DVC route - that would be backwards.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 13, 2008)

davidvel said:


> IMO a lot of "value" for Marriott trades with II is derived by the Marriott name and quality of its resorts. In other words, many people outside of Marriott create demand for the "lesser" (non-platinum) Marriott weeks. This allows many people to trade lock-offs and 1BR Marriott properties for 2BR units at other decent (albeit non-Marriott resorts). Or trade a garden variety week for a non-Marriott Hawaii or ski-area week in prime time, which could never be done inside Marriott. Not so with a Marriott only points system, but the opposite.



I think this is an INCREDIBLY important and often lost point.  Right now the mixing in of non-Marriott resorts acts as a pressure release valve on the trading system.  Some owners are willing to buy Gold and Silver weeks and pay the same maint. as Platinum weeks b/c they have a decent opportunity to trade into better seasons.  Their lower value weeks are then traded into by non-Marriott owners, willing to take lower demand seasons to get into the higher quality Marriott name.  Leftovers are sold by II as getaway weeks.  At the end of the day everyone gains.  

A Marriott managed system will likely make trading more EQUAL (meaning you can trade for like unit in a like season OR smaller unit in a better season OR bigger unit in a worse season) BUT that doesn't address the inequality in maint. fees (Silver pays the same as Platinum plus).  Result - havoc on Silver/Bronze weeks.   Now, theoretically the initial purchase price should address this inequality.  The problem is that as resorts get older and there is downward pressure on overall prices, the value of Bronze/Silver weeks quickly reaches $0 b/c they aren't even worth the yearly maint. fee.


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## m61376 (Nov 13, 2008)

Besides what is posted above about issues with Silver and Bronze week, especially in light of ever-rising MF's, what worries me most is not what the valuations are at the onset, but what those values will be relative to future valuations. I agree that the best positioned people here are those who own premium properties, but even those owners are not secure. We've seen it in other points based systems and we've seen it in the rewards program (I know, a different entity, but the same issues exist). Five years down the road even a similarly situated but new resort will cost more to build- and will cost more to buy. Purchasers will expect, and likely receive, more points for their purchase and, hence, the points required for trading in will be greater. Had this scenario been adopted 5 years ago, for example, an owner at Aruba Ocean Club might only be able to trade their week for 5 days at the Surf Club, even though they are equivalent properties; similarly, owners at Ocean Pointe wouldn't be able to get a week at Ocean Palms...etc. Fast forward a few years and even owners of Hawaii resorts, Plat. ski weeks, Plat. Aruba weeks, etc.- all of whom will likely be awarded the highest number of points today- will likely find themselves short of the requisite points to book a week's stay elsewhere.

If the points awarded (and thus the points necessary to book) remain stagnant for current owners but escalate for new properties, over time owners at prime properties/season may not have enough points to trade for a newly built resort in Orlando, for example. As seen with other point systems, once point values are assigned they don't keep pace with inflation, but newer resorts, as they come on the market, reflect inflationary pricing. I think that's a really big issue- we bought with the promise of a week's vacation where we bought and the ability to trade for a week elsewhere int he Marriott system, subject to availability. I don't want to be told that I only qualify for 4 or 5 days, or a studio or 1 BR for my 2 BR, and I certainly don't want to be told that now that my resort is 10 years old, and I've paid $1000+ in special assessments to renovate it and make it beautiful, that it is no longer worth as much as a neighboring property because it was less expensive at original purchase (and thus assigned a lower point value).


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## EZ-ED (Nov 13, 2008)

FWIW I have not yet received the survey but will probably chuck it when it does come in. I would guess that the points program is already set in place and the survey is just a way to start getting the word out on a the new program and that no real user survey input is going to be looked at seriously. 

Marriott knows how their existing rewards points operate and will be setting their resort season/rooms points placement based on that knowledge. It should not be very long before the devaluations in point value start as knowledgeable users figure out the loop holes and take advantage of those who join and don't figure out how to work the system. For me... well I'll pass on any points opportunity just as I now do when I'm offered a boatload of points to buy at the sales presentation inflated prices. I don't want or need the weekend usuage or the 3 day or even single day usage. I want a vacation and for me that's usually 7 days.


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## Ggatorgirl (Nov 13, 2008)

*MFs*

One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay.  Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and  number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 13, 2008)

Ggatorgirl said:


> One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay.  Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and  number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.



That would give the sales staff a good way to sell the silver/bronze units at the new properties. It would be an entry level program, "try this with a small amount of points and see if you like it". Otherwise, I don't see how they will ever sell the silver/bronze or even gold weeks in the future.

I'm not familiar with too many of the point systems, but I know Worldmark sets the MF based on the number of points owned. It seems like the only fair way but could get very complicated. A platinum in Hawaii will be worth more than a platinum in Orlando, so I'm sure Hawaii would be worth more points. But how would they equalize MF's based on points throughout the system?

I think Marriott could have a great point system if they started with points in the begining. But now they've been selling weeks for 20+ years it will be very difficult to switch to points and try to keep Marriott owners happy.


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## bookworm (Nov 13, 2008)

Ggatorgirl said:


> One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay.  Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and  number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.



A good idea for future resorts (what Wyndham has done - new resorts pay fees by number of points) but no way you can do that in existing resorts. I can just imagine the platinum owner who always uses the same summer week at Hilton Head and isn't interested in points being told the MF will go up by 50% to cover the costs of the bronze and silver weeks that will pay less. You can't change what's already been started.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 13, 2008)

I wonder if Marriott would drop the II Marriott only window if they convert to points to try to make the new system more appealing.


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## Big Matt (Nov 13, 2008)

Great post.  That would certainly get some people's attention.  

I talked to an II advisor two days ago and when I talked about the Marriott points program, he very quickly changed the conversation back to II.  

They must be at wits end.  Losing Marriott would be a huge blow.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 13, 2008)

I am in no way, shape or form worried about this Marriott points program.  I know how points programs work in gory detail.  I know what it takes to be successful.   And, I understand the constraints that the developers have on creating the point system.  Moreover, I understand the spin they will use to scare people into buying.

The bottom line is that the existing resorts will remain essentially how they are today.  I doubt II will eliminate the 3-day preference period.  Why should they?  They will lose business from Marriott.  But, they will want to keep all the existing customers who will retain the option for trading directly with II.

I would be extraordinarily surprised if Marriott has a 25% take rate after 5 years for existing resorts.  There will be a new program and when you go to an owner update, it will be all about points.  So, just wait until reale points packages become available and get the best of both worlds based on your own needs and the price points.

To me, more options are better.   All I need to do is tweak my timeshare portfolio to capitalize on the rules that Marriott implements.  And, there will be some juicy loopholes.  Be optimistic.  I am.


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## TRAVELING FOOL (Nov 13, 2008)

*Marriott Point Sytem*

My husband and I are current owners at the MGC and went to a presentation at the Marriott Beach Place last week. Strange that nothing was mentioned to us in regard to a possible change in the point system !


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## JimC (Nov 13, 2008)

littlestar said:


> What I like about Marriott compared to DVC is that the maintenance fees for the larger units aren't anywhere near what DVC charges. You'll pay almost double in maintenance fees for a DVC 2 bedroom over an average Marriott (excluding the Hawaii Marriotts). You pay a premium in maintenance fees for a point system.
> 
> We own both DVC and Marriott. We usually stay in studios when we use our DVC points (to stretch the points) and when we trade our Marriott I lock it off and we get to stay in 1 and 2 bedrooms. It sounds like I may only be able to stay in Marriott efficiencies if they implement this points system.  Especially if most resorts are assigned low values because they aren't in Hawaii.



That is because DVC can charge a premium for its product.  Comparable resorts to compare would be OKW and CH where OKW costs more to buy and to own.


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## JimC (Nov 13, 2008)

Ggatorgirl said:


> We have been DVC owners for over 15 years and love the flexibility and simplicity of the system.  ...Exchanges into II are done primarily in one week increments, based on number of bedrooms and cost roughly what a 7 night stay at DVC would cost.....



Unlike MVCI where we have individual memberships in II and manager our own trades and can access the entire II inventory; DVC maintains a corporate membership in II and trades with a limited inventory are managed through DVC.


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## JimC (Nov 13, 2008)

After reading the sections of the survey it struck me that this is mostly about revenue for Marriott and not about benefits for owners.  Up front fees to convert and annual fees to use and if that is on a per week basis is going to be costly to some owners.

The points allocation does need to be done carefully to balance relative demand and therefore relative value.  Otherwise the system will not work.  But there are sufficient points programs and enough usage data for this to be done.  

As others have said, the maintenance, taxes and reserves can be charged per point rather then per week.

I also prefer the flexibility of the DVC points program and that DVC does not impose nuisance fees to use what we bought.  However, DVC does charge a hefty premium.

Unless someone can explain the value of paying more dollars to use what I already own, I don't see the reason to convert.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 13, 2008)

People seem worried that Marriott would take prime weeks before week owners could reserve them for the points system. Here is how I see it happening.

Everyone can still call in at 12 months, those using points use those points. Those using their weeks reserve their weeks. No weeks are pulled aside ahead of time for the points portion, once that week is booked it is booked in to the specific program. Some weeks may be set aside for the guarantee, but it sounded like there would be a limited percentage available for this.

If you want to deposit in II via points, Marriott just reserves the week they want and deposits it. A weeks owner just reserves themselves and deposits. The only problem is it really opens everything up to only one season. A silver owner can now book in platinum as long as they have enough points. So it may make getting that prime week tougher at the 12 month and it may leave a lot of silver weeks empty.

It is still just proposed and not implimented. It may not come to fruition. Though seeing how Marriott is needing to generate new income in this economy, they likely see this as a prime opportunity.


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## davidvel (Nov 13, 2008)

Ggatorgirl said:


> One way to deal with MFs in a points system is to reallocate the annual fees based on the number of points...the more points you have the more you pay.  Since the number of points will be assigned based on your ownership season and  number of bedrooms, the silver and bronze weeks will be paying less fees than the Plat and Gold owners.


This would be a good way to do a points system planning it from the ground up. I hate to :deadhorse: but this cannot happen at MVCI resorts. 

The allocation of maintentance fees are set forth in the deeded documents. It would require consent of the owners to change this allocation.  Marriott cannot change these terms of the CC&Rs as part of its ancillary points exchange program. Marriott only manages the HOAs and is required to comply with the deeded documents.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 14, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> No weeks are pulled aside ahead of time for the points portion, once that week is booked it is booked in to the specific program. Some weeks may be set aside for the guarantee, but it sounded like there would be a limited percentage available for this.



I probably worry about this the most.  What if there are 1,000 MHZ owners that join the program and only 10 owners that join from NCV.  Will that mean all of the points owners will have to vie for 10 NCV spots?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 14, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> I probably worry about this the most.  What if there are 1,000 MHZ owners that join the program and only 10 owners that join from NCV.  Will that mean all of the points owners will have to vie for 10 NCV spots?



This is why they want to sell you a 3 year home resort guaranty.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 14, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> This is why they want to sell you a 3 year home resort guaranty.



you got to love it, having to buy what you are deeded to have anyway


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## GetawaysRus (Nov 14, 2008)

There were some comments above that a new Marriott point system might really hurt Interval International.

I wonder, however, if this proposed change might in some ways end up benefitting those MVCI owners who stay with the traditional weeks system and continue trading with Interval.  Think in supply and demand terms.  Demand from Interval for the weeks that we own might very well increase if fewer Marriott weeks become available to Interval.  Could this result in greater trading power for those Marriott owners who stay with the old system, or perhaps more frequent offers of ACs?  Could the trading value of non-platinum Marriott weeks increase?  Trading through Interval into Marriott resorts might become more difficult, but perhaps trades to non-Marriott resorts would get easier?

In short, there could be some unexpected consequences.


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## cigarboo (Nov 14, 2008)

> This is why they want to sell you a 3 year home resort guaranty



Simply unbelievable!! Marriott wants to sell you something you should already have... the ability to book at your own resort. And they want us to pay extra to sign up for this crappy program?  

For sure they've turned me off from them. I used to love Marriott and spoke highly of them to friends. I really like II and the 23 day Marriott priority. Was looking into buying at MOW, but ever since this talk of change in the trading system, I held off. Instead I just bought into DVC. Although it's a points system, it makes sense. It was a points system from the start and people just bought points with those having more points, pay more MF's. Trying to retro fit a points system into a weeks base system doesn't work well. All I see in this new system is more fees, more competition for those high demand weeks. You not only have to compete for desired weeks from your fellow owners, but also from people who don't own at your resort. Only Marriott is earning money.  No way will I pay more money to  convert to the points system. I'll just use my week every year and when I'm tired of it, I'll sell for what ever it fetches. I'd rather take a loss than throw good money after bad. I'll be done with timesharing. As they say,"All good things must come to an end."


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 14, 2008)

GetawaysRus said:


> There were some comments above that a new Marriott point system might really hurt Interval International.
> 
> I wonder, however, if this proposed change might in some ways end up benefitting those MVCI owners who stay with the traditional weeks system and continue trading with Interval.  Think in supply and demand terms.  Demand from Interval for the weeks that we own might very well increase if fewer Marriott weeks become available to Interval.  Could this result in greater trading power for those Marriott owners who stay with the old system, or perhaps more frequent offers of ACs?  Could the trading value of non-platinum Marriott weeks increase?  Trading through Interval into Marriott resorts might become more difficult, but perhaps trades to non-Marriott resorts would get easier?
> 
> In short, there could be some unexpected consequences.



This is an interesting thought. I guess its a possibility. 

Also I'm wondering what effect it has on the resale price of Marriott weeks. Under the same reasoning do they become more or less valuable? If future owners are points weeks, and some current owners convert to points, there will be less traditional weeks out there. You would think that is a good thing, under the laws of supply and demand. 

Alot of things still need to be sorted out, but I wonder why any high-end  owner would convert to points, and if they don't how will they have Maui weeks avaliable in the points program?  

To me is seems like it will get a helluva lot harder to secure prime float week. Here's the scenerio that concerns me. Many non Maui owners go with the points. These owners all say they want to go to Maui Pres week and save their points, for how ever long to accumulate the necessary points. So now not only am I competing with other Maui owners for Pres week, I'm now competing with the other non-Maui owners who have saved their points to secure Maui Pres week. To address this will they have an off set as to how soon a non-Maui owner can reserve, let's say 9 months? If that is the case, then it could work, as the orginal Maui owners will still have priority.

This is what I need to know before I fear the points system. Otherwise I'm unaffected, becuase I have no need for the points system and wouldn't change my approach of renting and using my portfolio the way I always have. 

Regards.
Joe


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## CMF (Nov 14, 2008)

*Funny thought of the day.*

Wouldn't it be interesting if Marriott allotted points based on the price paid for the week?  This would be fair; no?  I suppose they could formulate some adjustment for inflation.  And what would this do to those of us who bought bargains in the resale market??  I guess resale buyers would not be jumping into the points bandwagon like lemmings.

Charles


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## JimIg23 (Nov 14, 2008)

Maybe not price paid resale, but the price set by Marriott will definitely be a factor in the points.  I don't see how they could justify giving the same number of points to a week that cost 40k to that which costs 25k, regardless of the location or season.  

Resales will be interesting.  What if they allow resales to buy in also.  Will they change your deed?  What if you join the point program (direct buyers or resale buyers) then need to resell your week?  Will the sale be for the point based system or the regular week based system?


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## Big Matt (Nov 14, 2008)

A lot of what makes the price go up is location, but the view at that property has a significant bump also.  Frankly, I never get a great view as an exchanger anyway, so I'm used to it.


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## normab (Nov 14, 2008)

We did not get the survey despite being multiple MVCI owners.  We like spending a week or two away, so the partial week option does not appeal to us.

The main contention we would have is if they change/eliminate the 60 day trading window.  We were sold one of our units this purpose only, and it made sense as long as the 60 day window exists.  Marriott has unloaded many undesirable but lower cost weeks, marketed as just for this purpose.  If we were to lose the ability to trade in the 60 day window we would be greatly disenchanted.

In the end, we would just want the choice.  We are betting that many owners would decline and that could impact the viability.


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## davidvel (Nov 14, 2008)

normab said:


> The main contention we would have is if they change/eliminate the 60 day trading window.


The flextrade (under 60 days) is an II animal, and has nothing to do with Marriott's new system.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 14, 2008)

davidvel said:


> The flextrade (under 60 days) is an II animal, and has nothing to do with Marriott's new system.



If fewer or no Marriott weeks are available in that 59 day window, it no longer makes it attractive.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 14, 2008)

davidvel said:


> The flextrade (under 60 days) is an II animal, and has nothing to do with Marriott's new system.



While it's true that Flexchange refers to an II exchange within 59 days prior to check-in, Marriott could have their own type of Flexchange in their new program. If II or Marriott has weeks that are late deposits or cancellations it just makes sense to relax the restrictions to get those weeks. If you had to have great trading power for a Hawaii week even during Flexchange many weeks would sit empty. 

Flexchange is a win/win situation for II and timeshare owners. II gets an exchange fee for a week that might otherwise not be used. A timeshare owner gets a great exchange at the last minute. 

I hope Marriott will have some type of last minute deals for weeks that remain available 6-8 weeks prior to check-in. 

Also, I assume II will still offer Flexchange, but there might not be many Marriotts available for exchange. That's okay with me, I've exchanged into Westin, Four Seasons, Hyatt & Fairfield during Flexchange. There are many other options besides Marriott!


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## pwrshift (Nov 15, 2008)

BeachPlace platinum recently sold on Ebay for $6100.  It has two views - ocean view and Intracoastal Waterway view.  And newly decorated to boot.  Does that mean 6100 points ... you'd have to save poitns for 5 years to get to Maui.  

Brian



Big Matt said:


> A lot of what makes the price go up is location, but the view at that property has a significant bump also. Frankly, I never get a great view as an exchanger anyway, so I'm used to it.


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## LAX Mom (Nov 15, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> BeachPlace platinum recently sold on Ebay for $6100.  It has two views - ocean view and Intracoastal Waterway view.  And newly decorated to boot.  Does that mean 6100 points ... you'd have to save poitns for 5 years to get to Maui.
> 
> Brian



and pay 5 years of MF's for your exchange into Hawaii!!!!


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## lovearuba (Nov 15, 2008)

*Questions and comments on the survey*

Hi
I started reading this thread and as with this website and others, its really hard to get to the facts but part of my confusion may be with this being a survey and not fact yet.  I am hoping someone can answer a few basic questions for me.

1).  Does Marriott indicate when they plan to move to a point based system

2)   Do you get the impression that the resorts with higher maintenance fees would get more points than others.  It makes sense to me, it should be harder to get into them and folks that are paying higher maintenance should get some advantage as well as those that have platinum seasons.

3)  Any indication that you can just not join their point system and just use your week like you normally would and rent it if you want?

Thanks for the input.


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## davidvel (Nov 15, 2008)

lovearuba said:


> Hi. I started reading this thread and as with this website and others, its really hard to get to the facts but part of my confusion may be with this being a survey and not fact yet.  I am hoping someone can answer a few basic questions for me.


You are correct that nothing is official and everyone is speculating.


lovearuba said:


> 1).  Does Marriott indicate when they plan to move to a point based system


No. So far pure speculation. 


lovearuba said:


> 2)   Do you get the impression that the resorts with higher maintenance fees would get more points than others.  It makes sense to me, it should be harder to get into them and folks that are paying higher maintenance should get some advantage as well as those that have platinum seasons.


You will get a million different impressions (see above posts). It would make sense, but its up to Marriott to configure its new system, and no one can tell you how it will end up. Remember, that this system cannot change how you use your week if you choose not to participate. 


lovearuba said:


> 3)  Any indication that you can just not join their point system and just use your week like you normally would and rent it if you want?


Your rights to reserve, occupy, rent or trade with any program you want to can't be altered by Marriott's new system.


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## lovearuba (Nov 15, 2008)

*thanks*

Thanks for the speedy response.  As long as I cant lose my right to use my unit I'm good.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 15, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> and pay 5 years of MF's for your exchange into Hawaii!!!!



good point, if they make the point spread to high, it will be cheaper to rent.


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## Big Matt (Nov 15, 2008)

Right, but what would Marriott sell it for?  That's where some of the fear you've been reading in these posts comes from.  I'm sure some people will win and lose in this new system.  My guess is that anyone who owns platinum, ocean front, anywhere will be way ahead.



pwrshift said:


> BeachPlace platinum recently sold on Ebay for $6100.  It has two views - ocean view and Intracoastal Waterway view.  And newly decorated to boot.  Does that mean 6100 points ... you'd have to save poitns for 5 years to get to Maui.
> 
> Brian


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## CMF (Nov 15, 2008)

*Exchange then Rent?*



davidvel said:


> Your rights to reserve, occupy, rent or trade with any program you want to can't be altered by Marriott's new system.



But, will you be able to rent an exchange under the new system?  What are the implications if it is not forbidden?

Charles


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## tlwmkw (Nov 15, 2008)

*I got this survey too...*

I own 2 weeks- bought from developer before finding TUG.  I thought the survey was way too long and quite confusing.

I also thought the new system, as they describe it, has some problems.

The big problem would be with MF's- DVC pay MF's per point but Marriott is by week and size of unit.  So if you own a bronze week and get fewer points do you still pay the same MF as the Platinum owner of the same unit size?

Since I bought one of my weeks to use each year and not to trade I certainly wouldn't want to pay more money in order to join this point system.  I assume many others would feel the same way- so would it become more difficult for me to keep getting my week (Platinum Hilton Head) if people using points are also trying to reserve what I am deeded to own?  Would someone who owns a bronze week be able to book at the same time as me or would there be a time limit on them booking?  DVC has the 11 and 7 month cutoffs but I still hear of people with DVC having trouble getting the time they want at their home resort.  I see this as a big problem.

Another issue is all the extra costs they are trying to charge.  If it is such a great system then they can pay for it themselves- I don't see why us owners who have already paid should have to subsidize Marriotts new system for them.  Esp if you bought retail- I feel I have paid enough to Marriott and don't want to pay them any more than I have to.


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## rsackett (Nov 15, 2008)

I took the survey and was never asked what I would be willing to pay.  

What I could not figure out is why I would pay Marriott $159/year and then pay another fee to have priority at my home resort, when I can pay nothing and be guaranteed a week at my home resort now???

Ray


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## timeos2 (Nov 15, 2008)

rsackett said:


> I took the survey and was never asked what I would be willing to pay.
> 
> What I could not figure out is why I would pay Marriott $159/year and then pay another fee to have priority at my home resort, when I can pay nothing and be guaranteed a week at my home resort now???
> 
> Ray



If all you want to do is stay at the resort you own then buying into points makes zero sense. 

Repeating a statement to those worried that the weeks formerly in the weeks pool suddenly are "unavailable to reserve my time" - they were unavailable when they were reserved in the 1st ten minutes and sent to II too. Nothing changes except which exchange system gets the inventory and that it WILL be removed in the 1st ten minutes. If enough high end time owners  switch to points - the most likely due to the high point values assigned - then the pool of available weeks does shrink but you are still only competing with other weeks owners in that pool.  Odds remain the same of getting the highest demand time and the need to act early each year to grab it.


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## normab (Nov 15, 2008)

davidvel said:


> The flextrade (under 60 days) is an II animal, and has nothing to do with Marriott's new system.



Yes that's true.  But it is not clear that it would remain as is if Marriott wants to change things.  For instance, if someone put their week in as points, would it ever make it to II for the 60 day window?  It's not clear that it would unless Marriott works out something to deposit excess availability with II.  So that is where we are concerned that we might lose out.


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## bookworm (Nov 15, 2008)

The way I read it the $159 could include several fees, possibly the II membership, transactions, lock-off fees (you have points so locking off is probably automatic). All in all, it might be a decent deal for those who usually trade anyway. Those using only their own unit every year may be able to opt out.


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## PerryM (Nov 15, 2008)

*Déjà vu all over again*

Glad to see someone is finally listening to me


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## thinze3 (Nov 15, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> BeachPlace platinum recently sold on Ebay for $6100.  It has two views - ocean view and Intracoastal Waterway view.  And newly decorated to boot.  Does that mean 6100 points ... you'd have to save poitns for 5 years to get to Maui.
> 
> Brian



--------------------------> :O:
*
Got me. Right in the heart!*


________________________________

_Don't forget I also own Waiohai._


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## JimIg23 (Nov 15, 2008)

I re-read the survey, sounds like they already have point allocations fleshed out, but probably not finalized.  48k for a Hawaii 2 bedroom week, 28k for a Myrtle Beach Plat week 2 bedroom, 28k for a 1 bedroom Caribbean Platinum. Does not sound like the gold seasons will be that many points at all.

I don't think my MHZ Plat will be that high.  I hope the NCV is better than what redweek values it or I am not going into it.  I think I would rather take my chances trading in II.


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## rsackett (Nov 15, 2008)

Once the new points system is up and running, do you think the 28 day Marriott trading priority will be gone in II?

Ray


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## dougp26364 (Nov 15, 2008)

Dave M said:


> If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. *Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale.*These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.



This one line I've put in bold scares me away from this program. Buying points instead of a deeded week. This sounds like a trust and a trust leaves the developer in compolete control. Bluegreen has done a decent job with their trust based system, Sunterra/DRI is actively killing it's members with it's trust based system (25% increase in MF's per trust point this year). 

Once Marriott takes the deed out of the equation, you can write me off for joining this program. If they want to give me points based upon my deeded week and let me keep my deed, that's one thing. If they want me to pay them and give up my deed to join a trust based points system, they can forget it.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 15, 2008)

_Once the new points system is up and running, do you think the 28 day Marriott trading priority will be gone in II?

Ray_
As an owner, I hope not.  If Marriott wanted to plays hardball to get people who only want to stay at Marriotts to join the point system, I think they would.  It would hurt II.  Maybe if owners complained alot they wont.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 15, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Repeating a statement to those worried that the weeks formerly in the weeks pool suddenly are "unavailable to reserve my time" - they were unavailable when they were reserved in the 1st ten minutes and sent to II too. Nothing changes except which exchange system gets the inventory and that it WILL be removed in the 1st ten minutes. .



My assumption is that if you join the point system, you get the points in the beginning of the year and Marriott take 1 week from the season you own.  I own NCV Platinum.  So if they take 1 week for my points, which week to do they take?  (I dont think they will let us reserve a week, then get the points, so Marriott chooses the week they take)  Lets say 100 owners take the points at the beginning of the year.  Does Marriott take 100 summer NCV weeks or do they take the September months?  If they take the prime weeks at NCV and not the non summer Platinum weeks, that would make it even harder to get summer months at NCV.


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## VacationPro (Nov 15, 2008)

rsackett said:


> Once the new points system is up and running, do you think the 28 day Marriott trading priority will be gone in II?
> 
> Ray



I seriously doubt it.  My bet is that the preference period will be shortened to something like the 3 day Starwood preference.


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## davidvel (Nov 15, 2008)

CMF said:


> But, will you be able to rent an exchange under the new system?  What are the implications if it is not forbidden?
> 
> Charles



No one knows, but I was referring to if you were NOT part of Marriott's new system.


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## davidvel (Nov 15, 2008)

normab said:


> Yes that's true.  But it is not clear that it would remain as is if Marriott wants to change things.  For instance, if someone put their week in as points, would it ever make it to II for the 60 day window?  It's not clear that it would unless Marriott works out something to deposit excess availability with II.  So that is where we are concerned that we might lose out.


I was responding to concerns about what would happen if you did not join the new system. I agree that any weeks deposited to Marriott's system that used to be deposited to II would likely not be availabe in II at all.


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## davidvel (Nov 15, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> _Once the new points system is up and running, do you think the 28 day Marriott trading priority will be gone in II?
> 
> Ray_
> As an owner, I hope not.  If Marriott wanted to plays hardball to get people who only want to stay at Marriotts to join the point system, I think they would.  It would hurt II.  Maybe if owners complained alot they wont.


Marriott has no control over this which is II's exchange policy. If II was smart they would _increase_ the preference period to induce MORE Marriott owners to submit their weeks to II instead of Marriott's.


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## JimC (Nov 15, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> This one line I've put in bold scares me away from this program. Buying points instead of a deeded week. This sounds like a trust and a trust leaves the developer in compolete control. Bluegreen has done a decent job with their trust based system, Sunterra/DRI is actively killing it's members with it's trust based system (25% increase in MF's per trust point this year).
> 
> Once Marriott takes the deed out of the equation, you can write me off for joining this program. If they want to give me points based upon my deeded week and let me keep my deed, that's one thing. If they want me to pay them and give up my deed to join a trust based points system, they can forget it.



You can deed a points system.  DVC already does it.


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## timeos2 (Nov 15, 2008)

*No sales at DVC - only RTU*



JimC said:


> You can deed a points system.  DVC already does it.



DVC records a RTU contract but it is NOT a deed as Disney will not sell property rights even in Celebration. It looks like a deed but its really a long term rental. 

Systems can be sold as deeded ownership which converts to XX points. Wyndham, one of the Diamond systems & many others did that. It does not have to be a trust based product.


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## JimC (Nov 15, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> DVC records a RTU contract but it is NOT a deed as Disney will not sell property rights even in Celebration. It looks like a deed but its really a long term rental.
> 
> Systems can be sold as deeded ownership which converts to XX points. Wyndham, one of the Diamond systems & many others did that. It does not have to be a trust based product.



Celebration was de-annexed from RCID when it was developed and property rights were sold.  

DVC is a deeded interest timeshare.  The deeds are filed with the county property records.  The underlying ground lease between DVD and WDW, the applicable Resort Agreement, the DVC Membership Agreement and the Master Cotenancy Agreement restrict ownership and control the reversion of the property rights at the appropriate termination date.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 16, 2008)

JimC said:


> Celebration was de-annexed from RCID when it was developed and property rights were sold.
> 
> DVC is a deeded interest timeshare.  The deeds are filed with the county property records.  The underlying ground lease between DVD and WDW, the applicable Resort Agreement, the DVC Membership Agreement and the Master Cotenancy Agreement restrict ownership and control the reversion of the property rights at the appropriate termination date.



If there's a termination date, then it's not a traditional deeded ownership but a form of right to use. Deeded ownerships do not expire or terminate.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 16, 2008)

davidvel said:


> Marriott has no control over this which is II's exchange policy. If II was smart they would _increase_ the preference period to induce MORE Marriott owners to submit their weeks to II instead of Marriott's.



I cant see Marriott not having some type of control over II's treatment of Marriott weeks.  Who decides where a property is traded (such as RCI or II)? is it Marriott or the HOA?


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## m61376 (Nov 16, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> I re-read the survey, sounds like they already have point allocations fleshed out, but probably not finalized.  48k for a Hawaii 2 bedroom week, 28k for a Myrtle Beach Plat week 2 bedroom, 28k for a 1 bedroom Caribbean Platinum. Does not sound like the gold seasons will be that many points at all.
> 
> I don't think my MHZ Plat will be that high.  I hope the NCV is better than what redweek values it or I am not going into it.  I think I would rather take my chances trading in II.



Is this really what they are proposing  ? So, Platinum owners at Myrtle Beach would basically have to give up 2 years of use to trade into Hawaii for a week (or 8 days)? Or give up their 2 BR only to get a 1BR in St. Thomas, St. Kitts or Aruba?

How many MB owners (and I am assuming then GO, etc. owners) would join under these provisions? 

And what valuation was hinted at for other weeks?


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## JimC (Nov 16, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> If there's a termination date, then it's not a traditional deeded ownership but a form of right to use. Deeded ownerships do not expire or terminate.



I never said it is a traditional deeded ownership, but it is deeded.  There is requirement that a deed be in perpetuity.


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## JimC (Nov 16, 2008)

m61376 said:


> Is this really what they are proposing  ? So, Platinum owners at Myrtle Beach would basically have to give up 2 years of use to trade into Hawaii for a week (or 8 days)? Or give up their 2 BR only to get a 1BR in St. Thomas, St. Kitts or Aruba?
> 
> How many MB owners (and I am assuming then GO, etc. owners) would join under these provisions?
> 
> And what valuation was hinted at for other weeks?



In a points system you do not have weeks, only points.  It becomes a "currency" or medium of exchange.  The points equivalent for a week at a resort will vary based on the size, season and resort demand.  It is likely that weekend points will be higher than weekday points to further balance demand.

If you buy into a points system you already know what the relative values are.  But here we can only speculate.  I expect that Marriott will have some sort of system wide points chart to share if/when they roll this out.  I also hope they can keep it relatively simple.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 16, 2008)

JimC said:


> In a points system you do not have weeks, only points.  It becomes a "currency" or medium of exchange.  The points equivalent for a week at a resort will vary based on the size, season and resort demand.  It is likely that weekend points will be higher than weekday points to further balance demand.
> 
> If you buy into a points system you already know what the relative values are.  But here we can only speculate.  I expect that Marriott will have some sort of system wide points chart to share if/when they roll this out.  I also hope they can keep it relatively simple.




That is not necessarily true for all points systems.

For instance, in DRI's THE Club, I have a point value assigned to my Suite's at Polo Towers week, which is a deeded week with a fixed week date. In order to convert that week to points, I must call DRI and release that unit to THE Club. Each year my week is automatcally reserved for me. If I don't want to use it and if I don't want to give it up for points in THE Club, I can still exchange it through I.I. as if I didn't belong to THE Club or DRI's points based internal exchange system. 

I agree that they need to use the KISS principle. I've often said if you married Marriott's locations with Hilton's points based reservation system, they'd be the king. Note that Hilton's points system is JUST a points based reservation system. They still sell you a deeded week that has a points value. They do not sell points. 

On the other hand, DRI's trust based system does sell you points instead of a deeded week. There is a definate difference. The DRI trust is different than THE Club. All trust members are members of THE Club but, all THE Club members are not trust based owners. 

I really don't want Marriott selling points. I would prefer they sell deeded weeks and move towards a points based reservation system similar to Hilton's. I doubt very seriously if I'll give up my unit weeks for points and I'm certainly not in the mood to pay for the priviledge.


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## FlyerBobcat (Nov 16, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> I really don't want Marriott selling points. I would prefer they sell deeded weeks and move towards a points based reservation system similar to Hilton's. *I doubt very seriously if I'll give up my unit weeks for points and I'm certainly not in the mood to pay for the priviledge*.




Well stated.... I hope someone at Marriott is listening.


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## IngridN (Nov 16, 2008)

flyerbobcat said:


> Well stated.... I hope someone at Marriott is listening.



Just got back from vacation and have not yet checked my e-mail to see if we've received the survey. Discussed this thread with DH and as he stated "we've already paid for the TS once, why should we do so again...we also will not pay for the "priviledge."


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## GrayFal (Nov 16, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> This is why they want to *sell you a 3 year home resort guaranty. *





JimIg23 said:


> you got to love it, *having to buy what you are deeded to have anyway*





cigarboo said:


> Simply unbelievable!! *Marriott wants to sell you something you should already have... the ability to book at your own resort. *And they want us to pay extra to sign up for this crappy program?





rsackett said:


> What I could not figure out is *why I would pay Marriott $159/year and then pay another fee to have priority at my home resort, when I can pay nothing and be guaranteed a week at my home resort now???*





_This is what bothers me the most _- in the Starwood program - home resort priority exists from 12 months to 8 months - when reservations are open to all SVN members......that is what makes people shell out big bucks to buy in Hawaii when they want to travel to Hawaii all the time - the ability to book their home resort ahead of all the other SVN owners.

Why does Marriott feel ANYONE would *sign away their right to always be guaranteed their home resort  ??? *- that would be just plain crazy on an owners part to do that!


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## GrayFal (Nov 16, 2008)

CMF said:


> But, will you be able to rent an exchange under the new system?  What are the implications if it is not forbidden?
> 
> Charles



Charles, in the SVN System you can use your points to reserve at other resorts at the 8 month mark and then rent it. Same with DVC, Wyndham and I imagine any other points system.


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## saturn28 (Nov 16, 2008)

I own Hyatt as well as Marriott. With Hyatt, a platinum week at any of their resorts is worth the same amount of points. There is no consideration on whether one resort sold platinum weeks at a higher price than another. This crap Marriott wants to do giving some platinum weeks more points than others is a rip off. People purchased their timeshare believing they would be able to trade into any of their resorts and receive the same size unit.

I will never join their points system especially if they are going to charge an extra fee. Marriott used to have a good name in the timeshare business, but the way they have been screwing their owners the last few years has changed that opinion. I no longer trust any change they are making because I know it is only being done to devalue what we presently own and increase their revenue.

I believe that Marriott looked at all the points based systems out there and will adopt all the parts that will give them the most revenue. They had no concern for nickel and dimming their owners to death or giving their present owners better value. In fact the more entry fees and service charges they can charge the better.

I bought my weeks based on the present format and all the sales pitches given by their sales people. If they want to change the rules now, they should not charge for entry into the new system for present owners. In addition, present owners should be able to keep everything we have now with regards to the trading format through Interval. That means keeping AC's, flexichange, and trading studios for 2 bedroom units in Hawaii or any other resort destination anything less is a rip off. I want what I was told I would get. If they try to do anything else, I can't wait until I attend another sales presentation and they try to sell me points. I will tell the salesperson what I think of Marriott.


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## mamadot (Nov 16, 2008)

I bought all of my Marriott weeks resale and have not recieved a anything from Marriott yet on new program. At this point is it just those that bought from the developer getting this survey?


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## FlyerBobcat (Nov 16, 2008)

mamadot said:


> I bought all of my Marriott weeks resale and have not recieved a anything from Marriott yet on new program. *At this point is it just those that bought from the developer getting this survey?*



No.  I am not a Marriott owner (yet) and never have been.  I know I am in Marriott's system, since I attended a TS presenatation in the past, and was a guest of a current owner while staying at Waiohai.


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## SDKath (Nov 16, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I can't imagine anyone would purchase a low season at Marriott resorts in the future. Why would you buy a silver/bronze or even gold week and pay the same MF as the platinum owners?
> 
> With the current II system people were willing to pay the MF for a silver Marriott because they had a chance at an upgrade. I was just looking at II and there are numerous upgrades available with my SW studio and 1 bedroom units. I can get larger units well into the spring at many desirable locations. Once Marriott controls the points system, my SW silver won't trade well at all.
> 
> ...



I am guessing that Marriott will be following DVC's system.  It is the only way this could make sense.  I think they will only be selling points at resorts in the future and by buying into a certain "home base", you will have booking priority at that resort of that resort type (beaches, ski weeks, deserts...).  I am also guessing that they will change MFs to a per point value rather than per week.  Otherwise it is completely unfair and skewed.

What I don't understand is how they plan to balance the platinum versus lower demand weeks.  DVC's point system relies heavily on the fact that most of their resorts are in FL or will be CA and HI, where weather is great 95% of the time.  There is no "silver week" in these locations.  Demand is good year round due to the draw of the amusement parks, etc.  Sure week 52 is the highest but the remaining weeks are pretty strong too.

That is not the case at a ski location, for example, where the ONLY good weeks are 1-15 and maybe 51 and 52.  Maybe some people will "burn off" some points by going to Breckenridge for a weekend in the summer but who the heck will ever be there in the Spring and Fall?  You can make the same argument for other seasonal locations like Myrtle Beach.

Also, I think a 6 month period to book at your non-home resort is just too darn short.  We all want FF miles -- good luck getting any airplane tickets for cheap at 6 months out.  It should be 8 or 9 months like Starwood.  The only thing left for points at 6 months will be Tue thru Thurs nites during silver season.

Katherine


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## VacationPro (Nov 17, 2008)

saturn28 said:


> I own Hyatt as well as Marriott. With Hyatt, a platinum week at any of their resorts is worth the same amount of points. There is no consideration on whether one resort sold platinum weeks at a higher price than another. This crap Marriott wants to do giving some platinum weeks more points than others is a rip off. People purchased their timeshare believing they would be able to trade into any of their resorts and receive the same size unit.
> 
> I will never join their points system especially if they are going to charge an extra fee. Marriott used to have a good name in the timeshare business, but the way they have been screwing their owners the last few years has changed that opinion. I no longer trust any change they are making because I know it is only being done to devalue what we presently own and increase their revenue.
> 
> ...



I agree.  I think a platinum week should be equivalent anywhere.  I think the home preference period helps to protect the value of the most demanded weeks (and therefore aids Marriott's desire to maximize revenue from those weeks).  I answered this survey and was pretty adamant about this.

In my mind, a point system can be a very valuable tool for all owners if it is implemented correctly.  For those that love the highest demanded locations, they can own there and get the preference period.  Others that like to go to a variety of places can buy the cheapest points (combination of initial cost + maintenance fees) to use.


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## lovearuba (Nov 17, 2008)

*I didnt receive the survey*

HI
Dont get me wrong, I dont care to fill it out but some folks asked who got it.  I am an owner and unfortunately didnt know about tug so bought directly from Marriott.  My two cents is that I think it will be an approvement over the interval process.


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## Pens_Fan (Nov 17, 2008)

VacationPro said:


> I agree.  I think a platinum week should be equivalent anywhere.



Please explain this logic to me.

Why should a platinum week purchased for $50,000 be equivalent to a platinum week purchased for $25,000?

I'm not trying to be smart here.  I'm just trying to understand.  It's like saying that the buying the best Kia is equivalent to buying the best Mercedes and we should be able to swap.


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## FlyerBobcat (Nov 17, 2008)

*


Pens_Fan said:



			Why should a platinum week purchased for $50,000 be equivalent to a platinum week purchased for $25,000?
		
Click to expand...

*Are you referring to the purchase price from the developer?  Since resales prices are all over map -- how does that come into play based on your question?


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## Pens_Fan (Nov 17, 2008)

flyerbobcat said:


> Are you referring to the purchase price from the developer?  Since resales prices are all over map -- how does that come into play based on your question?



In this case, yes I am talking about purchase price from a developer, but the question works in general.

All platinums, or all golds or silvers, are not equal.  Why should they be treated as such?

I appreciate the ability to trade into different properties, but I would never expect them to all be equivalent.


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## jimf41 (Nov 17, 2008)

*All Platinums equal?*

I don't know how this would work. I own two plat and one plat plus week in Frenchman's Cove. I love Ocean Pointe but I hardly think my plat O/S unit at OP is the equivalent of the weeks in Frenchman's Cove. I think we all have to wait and see exactly what the new program is before we can figure out if it's good or bad for each of us. 

At the tour I took last week at OP the rep said they were going to a points system but she was totally confused about the difference between MRP's and the points that may be assigned to a unit under the proposed system. She did harp on a few sales points that I found amusing. She said there was no secondary (resale) market for Marriott's. Then she said no one would want to buy resale anyway because you only get "...half a program because you can't trade for points". Most sales folks I've toured with are at least somewhat knowledgeable about the system, this one was a little confused. I think next time I'll bring my laptop and put a video link up so we could all enjoy the entertainment.


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## cigarboo (Nov 17, 2008)

> I am guessing that Marriott will be following DVC's system. It is the only way this could make sense. I think they will only be selling points at resorts in the future and by buying into a certain "home base", you will have booking priority at that resort of that resort type (beaches, ski weeks, deserts...). I am also guessing that they will change MFs to a per point value rather than per week. Otherwise it is completely unfair and skewed.
> 
> What I don't understand is how they plan to balance the platinum versus lower demand weeks. DVC's point system relies heavily on the fact that most of their resorts are in FL or will be CA and HI, where weather is great 95% of the time. There is no "silver week" in these locations. Demand is good year round due to the draw of the amusement parks, etc. Sure week 52 is the highest but the remaining weeks are pretty strong too.



I think you're right about Marriott looking towards a DVC type points system. A lot of the questions they're asking sounds like the DVC system and your points about DVC are exactly right. I will also add that even though I think DVC points seem logical and I just bought into it, there are increasingly more gripes about that program as more resorts have been added. Even though there is a "home base" booking period(11-7mos), the owners of the higher demand resorts are having trouble booking at their own resort. God forbid you wanted to take a trip to your home resort and didn't realize it until 6 mos 28 days out. As soon as the 7 mos window opens, forget it. You're staying somewhere else. Fortunately for Disney, most of the resorts are at high demand places(for Disney lovers) that are attractive most times of the year. Say you wanted to go to WDW(onsite), at least you still get to go, even though you don't get to stay at the resort that you bought into. For Marriott, there are too many resorts and too many seasonal places to make a points system work for the owners.  The nice thing about the current program with II is, even with short notice, you can get into some really nice resorts during flexchange. I will miss that, if Marriott changes and that's the benefit that made me feel timesharing with Marriott was really worthwhile. DVC is totally different because I bought with the intent of only staying at Disney, at my home resort, booking 11 mos out.


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## FlyerBobcat (Nov 17, 2008)

*Copy of the Marriott Survey*

When I took the Marriott Survey, I did a screen capture of the entire question set.

So if anyone wants to look at the survey, or wants to see how the survey is worded (for future reference), just PM me with your email address and I can send you a copy.

Note: The file is quite big (600k), which is why I cannot post it as an attachment (limit 100k).  The .doc file contains screen images, not text.


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## CMF (Nov 17, 2008)

*Musings: How is the average Marriott owner responding to the survey?*

I guess it's fair to say that the Tug consensus is that this is a bad deal for owners. No?

How do you think the average Marriott owner will respond?

And, what are the chances that Marriott will not follow through?

Maybe it's poll time? Moderators?

Charles


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## thinze3 (Nov 17, 2008)

Pens_Fan said:


> Please explain this logic to me.
> 
> Why should a platinum week purchased for $50,000 be equivalent to a platinum week purchased for $25,000?....



I agree. The typical $25,000 week also pays MUCH LES in maintence fees and taxes than the $50,000 week.

Examples:
Legends Edge and Manor Club pay about $900
while Kauai Beach Club and Maui Lahaina pay over $1700.

They resorts do not currently have the same trading power and should not be offered the same number of points in a new trading system IMO.


Terry


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## musical2 (Nov 17, 2008)

I am one of the lucky ones who traded an MMC 2BR for a Marriott Ko Olina 2BR Ocean View during the 4th of July week this past summer.  With a new points based system, it won't happen again.  I'm just glad I took that vacation when I did.  I don't think I will join the new points based system.  I'll stick with II and take my chances.  This in conjunction with the devaluation of reward points has really done it for me into buying any more Marriott timeshares.  It is definitely DVC for me from now on if when I decide to buy more.


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## SDKath (Nov 17, 2008)

It is also MUCH easier to devalue a point system.  I am sure Marriott will come up with some statement like "the points at this resort will ALWAYS be the same and NEVER go up..." like DVC.

However, every new resort they build requires more and more points, some almost double.  So if you bought points in 2009 and you needed 20,000 to get a room in resort X, by 2019, the new resort right next to X will cost you 40,000 points.  X will be considered the older, less glamorous resort and all of a sudden everyone has to buy twice as many points to stay in the nicer places.

That doesn't happen when you buy a platinum week and trade it to another resort 10 years later without a point system in play.

Katherine


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## LAX Mom (Nov 17, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I agree. The typical $25,000 week also pays MUCH LES in maintence fees and taxes than the $50,000 week.
> 
> Examples:
> Legends Edge and Manor Club pay about $900
> ...



What about the Park City Marriotts? Marriott sells weeks 51 & 52 there for over $50,000, I'm not sure what the platinum weeks go for but it's a lot more than $25,000. The MF's are just over $1,000 a week at Summit Watch and Mountainside should be less than that.

It's true the expensive Hawaii Marriotts have high MF, but not all the expensive timeshares are in Hawaii. 

I think Marriott has a tough job setting points for their numerous properties and convincing the owners it's a fair equitable allocation of points. How can they possibly accomplish this without upsetting many of their owners?


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## VacationPro (Nov 17, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I agree. The typical $25,000 week also pays MUCH LES in maintence fees and taxes than the $50,000 week.
> 
> Examples:
> Legends Edge and Manor Club pay about $900
> ...



Well, I know for a fact that this is a system that Hyatt uses, since I own a diamond week.  I also believe that Hilton uses this equivalent.

Starwood also uses something similar, although there are some differences for the differences between Westin and Sheraton.

A 2BR Westin in Palm Springs in platinum season has the same Star Options as a 2BR in Hawaii.  The cost of the buy-in is not relevant.  Starwood gives a home resort preference to help owners get the best time slots and views, which I do think is fair, and for many is worth the premium in initial cost and maintenance fees.


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## thinze3 (Nov 17, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> What about the Park City Marriotts? Marriott sells weeks 51 & 52 there for over $50,000 ...



Those absolutely should get the maximum points and probably will IMO.





VacationPro said:


> ... A 2BR Westin in Palm Springs in platinum season has the same Star Options as a 2BR in Hawaii.  The cost of the buy-in is not relevant.  Starwood gives a home resort preference to help owners get the best time slots and views, which I do think is fair, and for many is worth the premium in initial cost and maintenance fees.



The difference is in the classifications. Starwood calls their typical high season for most resorts "platinum plus", whether it is located in Palm Springs or Hawaii. But, many of starwood resorts do not even have a platinum plus season, i.e. SBP, PGA and all Orlando resorts. These are more comparable to what I was referring to (Manor Club & Legends Edge) and do not generate enough points from their high seasons to trade into Hawaii annualy.

I do agree that the priority period for getting back into your home resort is worth something in itself, but it appears that Marriott will want an exta annual fee for this option. Unless Marriott is planning on putting all MF's on even keel and adding the "priority fees" on top of that, I wouldn't be for an equal-points-for-all-platinums type of system.


Terry


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## davidvel (Nov 17, 2008)

davidvel said:


> Marriott has no control over this which is II's exchange policy. If II was smart they would _increase_ the preference period to induce MORE Marriott owners to submit their weeks to II instead of Marriott's.





JimIg23 said:


> I cant see Marriott not having some type of control over II's treatment of Marriott weeks.  Who decides where a property is traded (such as RCI or II)? is it Marriott or the HOA?



The owner has the right to decide what to do with their week (rent, use, exchange, gift). You can trade with anyone who will take(or manage) your week: Redweek, II, ownertrades, Aunt Edna, etc. 

 I am sure there are agreements between Marriott and II, but the issue was if Marriott ended those.  If Marriott severs their ties with II (which I don't think they will do),  II can still have its policies as it wants, including preference for Marriott.


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## VacationPro (Nov 17, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Those absolutely should get the maximum points and probably will IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you are mistaken on Starwood.  There are special, holiday weeks, but those are not an entire season.  The difference in Starwood is the brand--a platinum at a Sheraton does not equate to a platinum in Westin (with I think one exception, which is Sheraton Mountain Vista in Colorado).  A platinum at Westin Kierland in Scottsdale, will trade on a yearly basis into a platinum at the Westin in Hawaii, St. John (based on availability), or Cancun.


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## JimC (Nov 17, 2008)

SDKath said:


> It is also MUCH easier to devalue a point system.  I am sure Marriott will come up with some statement like "the points at this resort will ALWAYS be the same and NEVER go up..." like DVC.
> 
> However, every new resort they build requires more and more points, some almost double. So if you bought points in 2009 and you needed 20,000 to get a room in resort X, by 2019, the new resort right next to X will cost you 40,000 points. X will be considered the older, less glamorous resort and all of a sudden everyone has to buy twice as many points to stay in the nicer places.
> 
> ...



Actually DVC can change its point schedules at any of its resorts.  It did so in 1996 at OKW.  It may change the allocation of points increasing some and decreasing others as long as they do not change the total points required for the resort.  As I understand it they felt a need to fine tune the system after several years of actual experience with the membership.

My concern is even more short term.  What will be required for a week at each resort?  This could severely limit exchanges if the range of week point requirements is extreme.


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## Zac495 (Nov 17, 2008)

I haven't received anything. I am resale and developer owner.
I've been reading this thread and I'm still confused.  

There is just no way I'm giving Marriott any more of my money!

My maintenance for Aruba with the assessment is going to be over 2300 this year alone.


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## JimIg23 (Nov 17, 2008)

I have been looking at some other threads about points.  One thread about Wyndham Disneyland is that the points to reserve it is almost double that of an older resort.  5 years from now, I wonder how much our resort points will be worth compared to all the new Marriotts that get built.  My EOY may turn into a EFY (Every fourth Year)


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## m61376 (Nov 17, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> I have been looking at some other threads about points.  One thread about Wyndham Disneyland is that the points to reserve it is almost double that of an older resort.  5 years from now, I wonder how much our resort points will be worth compared to all the new Marriotts that get built.  My EOY may turn into a EFY (Every fourth Year)



That's a big concern of mine if they allocate different point values to same season weeks at different resorts. Newer properties will cost more upfront and, thus, likely to get larger point allocations and command higher points for trading into. Older properties, while purchased at a lower cost, are likely to have higher ongoing costs, as MF's and special assessments are necessitated from time to time to maintain the property, yet unlikely to be reflected in point valuations. 

So, current owners will increasingly get less value for their money (effectively increasing the per night rate and decreasing the value of timesharing ownership). With ever increasing MF's making people reconsider the value of ownership versus rental in the first place, creating a system which further potentially devalues ownership and will likely continue to do so is going to make future sales even more difficult. Current buyers are attracted to Marriot because of the prospect not only of enjoying vacations at today's resorts, but at the 2 dozen or so on the horizon. However, if they find out that a week at today's resort will likely be worth 5 days or so a few years down the road at the newer resorts, I would think that would give many prospective purchasers pause.


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## SDKath (Nov 17, 2008)

JimIg23 said:


> I have been looking at some other threads about points.  One thread about Wyndham Disneyland is that the points to reserve it is almost double that of an older resort.  5 years from now, I wonder how much our resort points will be worth compared to all the new Marriotts that get built.  My EOY may turn into a EFY (Every fourth Year)



Exactly!  AND, the cost of points of course will continue to go up with time, therefore not only requiring you to buy more points but also PAY MORE PER POINT.  It's a double devaluation.

And you are right, DVC can change the number of points at a resort from week to week each year but the TOTAL points per year for a given resort can never change.  The variability from year to year is to account for things like holidays, which don't land on the same day or week each year.  The end result is the same: no change in points for that resort over time.  Otherwise, point systems would just fall apart from devaluation.

Katherine


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## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2008)

It also sounded like they were considering only selling points at new resorts. So that would mean if you wanted to get in to them you would either have to buy there or buy in to the points program. New resorts then would effectivly be unavailable to weeks owners.


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## Pit (Nov 17, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> New resorts then would effectivly be unavailable to weeks owners.



I think the new resorts would still be available through II, as there will always be some who want to exchange outside the Marriott system.


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## GaryDouglas (Nov 18, 2008)

*13 Month Rule*



> *Reservation Window* - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:· Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more ​· At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more ​· At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments ​


 
Is it safe to assume they are only talking about the new program here and are not considering getting rid of the current 13 month rule?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2008)

GaryDouglas said:


> Is it safe to assume they are only talking about the new program here and are not considering getting rid of the current 13 month rule?



Nothing is safe to assume.


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## lll1929 (Nov 18, 2008)

I just completed the over the phone informational presentation (Just like the 90 min presentation, but the gift is a $25 Visa giftcard).

I asked the rep about the new point survey.  He initially acted as if he was unaware of the pgm, but when I mentioned the lack of flexchange, he chimed right in.

According to Matt, the rep, the new point system would still allow for flexchange trade thru II.  Basically, all weeks that are not reserved via pts using the internal Marriott pgm, will be dumped into II for flexchange.  Makes sense.  

According to Matt, that is what is done today with weeks that are not reserved by owners.  

I can't say that I would invest in the new pt pgm when I know the excess inventory can be booked in II.  I see no benefit in the proposed internal points system.  I will stick with the current process.


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## IngridN (Nov 18, 2008)

Have checked both my and DH's e-mail accounts and no survey from Marriott.  Considering that we own 4, all purchased through Marriott, you'd think they would solicit our opinion, but no such luck...would have told them what they could do with the new program as this one works just fine for our needs.

Ingrid


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## sandesurf (Nov 18, 2008)

IngridN said:


> Have checked both my and DH's e-mail accounts and no survey from Marriott.  Considering that we own 4, all purchased through Marriott, you'd think they would solicit our opinion, but no such luck...would have told them what they could do with the new program as this one works just fine for our needs.
> 
> Ingrid



FYI, our surveys (2, 1 each), were in an e-mail account I rarely use. I figured out that this is the e-mail address I used for our Marriott Visas. (We have two accounts, with two separate Marriott Reward acccounts.)


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## IngridN (Nov 18, 2008)

sandesurf said:


> FYI, our surveys (2, 1 each), were in an e-mail account I rarely use. I figured out that this is the e-mail address I used for our Marriott Visas. (We have two accounts, with two separate Marriott Reward acccounts.)



I checked all of our accounts including the spam buckets...no survey.


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## pwrshift (Nov 18, 2008)

I didn't get the points survey at all ... maybe it's because I don't have the Marriott VISA card in Canada as it didn't payout like the US one did.

Brian


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## aka Julie (Nov 19, 2008)

I hava a Marriott Visa credit card and own 3 weeks and didn't get the survey.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2008)

aka Julie said:


> I hava a Marriott Visa credit card and own 3 weeks and didn't get the survey.



Same here, and we only use one email address for everything under the sun.

Honestly, my head hurts reading through all of this!  I think I'll do what is usual for me - keep on reading and re-reading what all of you write and then read some more when/if Marriott announces a change, so that we can take full advantage of our timeshare use.  TUG has been so helpful in that regard - I really can't say how much I appreciate what you all offer here.

A couple things I'm thinking about.  Whatever system is in place, priority should be given to home resort/season bookings, and I'd like to see some continuation of the multi-week booking advantage.   I'm not sure where I fall on the "should resale v. developer prices figure in the resort point values?" thing, but I'd like Marriott to somehow give an advantage to developer-bought owners.  I know that makes me a bad guy, but we bought developer (even after reading TUG) specifically to hedge against any resale devaluation that Marriott might impose.  They've devalued developer sales with the recent points changes, right?  Well, now it's time for resale sales to take a hit.   

Susan


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## dioxide45 (Nov 19, 2008)

SueDonJ said:


> Same here, and we only use one email address for everything under the sun.
> 
> Honestly, my head hurts reading through all of this!  I think I'll do what is usual for me - keep on reading and re-reading what all of you write and then read some more when/if Marriott announces a change, so that we can take full advantage of our timeshare use.  TUG has been so helpful in that regard - I really can't say how much I appreciate what you all offer here.
> 
> ...



Remember that for every resale purchase there had to be at least one developer purchase. So Marriott made their money. Also for each time Marriott devalues developer or resale weeks they hurt the resale prices of your developer purchased week. If you ever need to resell your week you will wish Marriott treated all weeks the same otherwise you may be lucky to get $1 for your developer purchased week.


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## davidvel (Nov 19, 2008)

Marriott has to treat all weeks (resale vs. direct) the same because the HOA has to under the CCRS and TS declaration, and Marriott simply manages the process for the respective HOAs.

Sure they can "add" perks for people who bought from them (trade for points) if they want, but the core rights to reserve, occupy/use/rent can't be changed by Marriott. In fact, United Airlines could give you miles for your week if they (and you) wanted to. 

The points trade has nothing to do with your rights in your property--it is just a contract between you and Marriott (appartently a contract that Marriott has no obligations under according to all the posts out there.)


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> Remember that for every resale purchase there had to be at least one developer purchase. So Marriott made their money.



I'm not looking at it from Marriott's perspective, though; I'm looking at it as a loyal customer of Marriott.  Even if that's not how they look at it!



dioxide45 said:


> Also for each time Marriott devalues developer or resale weeks they hurt the resale prices of your developer purchased week.



Isn't it true that each time Marriott devalues any weeks, they hurt the resale prices across the board?  Sure, developer weeks will always take a bigger hit, but all of them take some kind of hit.



dioxide45 said:


> If you ever need to resell your week you will wish Marriott treated all weeks the same otherwise you may be lucky to get $1 for your developer purchased week.



Why would a developer-purchased week ever sell for _less_ than a resale-purchased?  I understand that it wouldn't return more, but less?

Anyway, if resale value was a consideration when we were looking to purchase, we never would have bought!  Timeshares aren't meant to be a real estate asset.  They're an investment in vacationing, and we're certainly getting our value out of that.  While we are, I want Marriott to give added value of some sort to their developer-purchased owners.  That's all.

Susan


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2008)

davidvel said:


> Marriott has to treat all weeks (resale vs. direct) the same because the HOA has to under the CCRS and TS declaration, and Marriott simply manages the process for the respective HOAs.
> 
> Sure they can "add" perks for people who bought from them (trade for points) if they want, but the core rights to reserve, occupy/use/rent can't be changed by Marriott. In fact, United Airlines could give you miles for your week if they (and you) wanted to.
> 
> The points trade has nothing to do with your rights in your property--it is just a contract between you and Marriott (appartently a contract that Marriott has no obligations under according to all the posts out there.)



No, no, I'm not saying that developer-purchased weeks should have different occupy/use/rent booking options than resale-purchased.  I mentioned those in relation to the points-based system that Marriott is proposing, and how I would still want to see home resort priorities and multi-week booking advantages in a new system.  I don't know how Marriott could differentiate between developer and resale contracts in determining a point value for the proposed system; I don't think it can be done which is why I said, "I'm not sure where I fall..."

The perks for developer-purchased weeks could be as simple as a higher rung on the priority ladder for available units - i.e. all other things being equal, a direct owner's unit requests would be taken into consideration at check-in before a resale owner's.  Or maybe something like flexchange discounts offered to direct owners a week before resale owners?  Just ideas, in case Marriott is reading.  

Susan


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## timeos2 (Nov 19, 2008)

*They all start as developer and thus never change*



SueDonJ said:


> Anyway, if resale value was a consideration when we were looking to purchase, we never would have bought!  Timeshares aren't meant to be a real estate asset.  They're an investment in vacationing, and we're certainly getting our value out of that.  While we are, I want Marriott to give added value of some sort to their developer-purchased owners.  That's all.
> 
> Susan



EVERY week is a developer purchased week and holds equal rights. That is may have been resold later to a different owner doesn't suddenly turn it into something else. Trying to make a distinction is foolhardy for Marriott & the owners. Once the week is sold it never changes in rights to use and the right to sell is included. There is no "added value" to be given as they are all developer purchased and all due the same value.


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## Pens_Fan (Nov 19, 2008)

The right to trade for points is an added value given only to developer purchased units.

What is to stop Marriott from providing other offers to only developer purchased units?


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## davidvel (Nov 19, 2008)

Pens_Fan said:


> What is to stop Marriott from providing other offers to only developer purchased units?


Absolutely nothing, so long as it does not take away from other rights granted to resale purchasers. (ie. changing time to reserve your week, as was suggested by one poster as only "adding" to the rights of developer-purchase owners).


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2008)

_PensFan_ >>What is to stop Marriott from providing other offers to only developer purchased units?<<

_davidvel_ >>Absolutely nothing, so long as it does not take away from other rights granted to resale purchasers. (ie. changing time to reserve your week, as was suggested by one poster as only "adding" to the rights of developer-purchase owners).<<

davidvel, do you mean what I posted?  I'm sorry for confusing you and me both.  I should have separated my thoughts more clearly; obviously my follow-up post didn't do the trick.

Specifically, with no regard for developer- or resale-purchase, I hope that a deeded week transferred to points under this proposed system garners a home resort priority somehow, and that the multi-week owners still have a booking advantage over single-week owners.  With regard to developer- and resale-purchase,  I think that there are ways for Marriott to differentiate between them and I'm in favor of them making a distinction wherever possible.

About "core rights to reserve", though - isn't the 13-month rule a fairly recent development for Marriott?  How did they go about making that change without violating rules?  And if they didn't violate any rules when they gave multi-week owners a booking advantage, what's to stop them from giving developer-purchased owners a similar advantage?

Susan


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## judys19058 (Nov 19, 2008)

*Booking home resort*

How does this point system work for booking into your home resort?  Am I now in competition with all Marriott owners to book my Maui week?  If I wish to upgrade to a 2 bedroom, how will that impact other owners who already are deeded to a 2 bedroom?  This program seems to be good for owners of less desirable properties since they may be able to book more desired weeks.  When will properties become available to all point seekers?  What am I not understanding?


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> EVERY week is a developer purchased week and holds equal rights. That is may have been resold later to a different owner doesn't suddenly turn it into something else. Trying to make a distinction is foolhardy for Marriott & the owners. Once the week is sold it never changes in rights to use and the right to sell is included. There is no "added value" to be given as they are all developer purchased and all due the same value.



We're looking at it differently.  You're looking at the product, the week, and I'm looking at the owner of the week.   I think Marriott would be foolhardy to not make a distinction, in some fashion, between developer- and resale-purchase owners.  The fact that they already do offer something to one and not the other leads me to believe that they see a value in rewarding their loyal customers.

This argument is ages old and I'm sure I'm not saying anything new.  But the way I look at it is, my week is never going to return what I paid for it if I sell it on the resale market.  My resale buyer will know that s/he is excluded from any added value Marriott gave me as a developer-purchaser (just as today's resale buyer knows that trading for points is not an option,)  but if I'm in the market for a new week somewhere else then Marriott's past history with me will be a factor in where I purchase.  That's all.

Susan


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## davidvel (Nov 19, 2008)

SueDonJ said:


> davidvel, do you mean what I posted?  I'm sorry for confusing you and me both.  I should have separated my thoughts more clearly; obviously my follow-up post didn't do the trick.


It can get confusing around here, especially if you miss an intervening post! I don't disagree with your post, I have simply been trying to consitently show the distinction between any trading system (Be it points, II, Redweek, Marriott's new system, etc.) and your rights to reserve and use your own week at your resort.  The lines seem to get blurred a lot. In a way, all of those are just "optional" systems that an owner and/or Marriott can engage in.


SueDonJ said:


> Specifically, with no regard for developer- or resale-purchase, I hope that a deeded week transferred to points under this proposed system garners a home resort priority somehow, and that the multi-week owners still have a booking advantage over single-week owners.  With regard to developer- and resale-purchase,  I think that there are ways for Marriott to differentiate between them and I'm in favor of them making a distinction wherever possible.


I agree, and frankly Marriott can do anything it wants with its system and treat anyone how they want--people have a right not to participate and just use their week the traditional way. (Occupy, gift, rent, trade). I have few opinions about what they _will_ do.


SueDonJ said:


> About "core rights to reserve", though - isn't the 13-month rule a fairly recent development for Marriott?  How did they go about making that change without violating rules?


I only have personal experience with the recorded docs for Shadow Ridge and the 13/12 rule is in the original recorded docs of this project. I am not sure that they haven't violated the rules by allowing this rule to apply to owners of different resorts (or if they in fact changed it and it was recorded differently), but that has been hashed out in a prior thread and I don't want to get too off topic...


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## JimIg23 (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't see how they could make a distinction between direct purchase and resales in a points based system.  Reduce the amount of time someone would be able to reserve a non-home resort week?  Reduce the point value for trading?  I don't see that being viable.  Does any other point system make a distinction between direct purchase and resale?  For the amount of resales out there, it would seem silly.


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## timeos2 (Nov 19, 2008)

*Cannot play with owners base rights*



JimIg23 said:


> I don't see how they could make a distinction between direct purchase and resales in a points based system.  Reduce the amount of time someone would be able to reserve a non-home resort week?  Reduce the point value for trading?  I don't see that being viable.  Does any other point system make a distinction between direct purchase and resale?  For the amount of resales out there, it would seem silly.



Not even Wyndham was able to make a distinction between resale & retail - they had to come up with a bunch of bogus "VIP" perks that cannot infringe on the basic value of the ownership at a cost that now represents a 95%+ premium for those that fall for it. If Marriott chooses the same type of short sighted "penalties" to resale buyers - which are actually costly additions, paid for by the developer as they are NOT part of the actual sale - for retail buyers that can and are reduced on any whim - no guarantees for your extra $$) then Marriott sellers can look forward to even lower, depressed resale values (and the continued debunking of the ROFR nonsense already proven not to support resale pricing) . If that's your goal push for resale/retail differences that actually only benefit Marriott sales not the owners  just like the now discredited ROFR. Bad move and unlikely to occur unless Marriott plans to defend themselves in some serious lawsuits they will lose if they actually try to alter the base rights a purchase entitles the buyer. Read the 400+ page disclosure they HAVE to honor.  Cannot be done and they know it.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 19, 2008)

*Deeded Property Cannot Be Diminished Upon Resale.*




SueDonJ said:


> I'm sure I'm not saying anything new.  But the way I look at it is, my week is never going to return what I paid for it if I sell it on the resale market.  My resale buyer will know that s/he is excluded from any added value Marriott gave me as a developer-purchaser (just as today's resale buyer knows that trading for points is not an option,)  but if I'm in the market for a new week somewhere else then Marriott's past history with me will be a factor in where I purchase.


The only reason resale timeshares go for a fraction of the price of full-freight timeshares is that developer sales are way overpriced, _not_ that developer sales carry any inherent worth over resales. 

Marriott, I suppose, could sell its loyal customers some sort of club membership in the manner of T*.*H*.*E*.* Club (formerly Club SunTerra) that evaporates upon resale of the underlying timeshare property.  All ownership rights & privileges that go with the underlying timeshare property, however, remain unchanged upon resale. 

Any timeshare company is asking for trouble if it sets up separate use classes for owners who bought from the company on the 1 hand & owners who bought resale on the other hand.  

That is, whatever the original timeshare owner gets by buying at full freight from the timeshare company, that's exactly what that owner has the right to sell in turn to somebody else.  And when somebody else buys it, what that buyer gets is precisely the same as what the original full-freight purchaser formerly owned. 

What it is that's owned is spelled out right there in black & white on the deed.  Nothing about reselling a deeded timeshare -- & nothing about buying that same deeded timeshare resale -- transforms the essential nature of what it is that's being bought & sold, no matter how much the timeshare company or its loyal customers would wish it to be otherwise.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## potchak (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow, lots of opinions here. Now I will add mine. 

1)I don't think Marriott will do anything more than offering MR points for those that purchase developer. If you look at DVC, there is no difference between resale and developer sales. I think they will need to keep it this way if they are actually going to keep the values high. 

2) In order for a points program to work as DVC has, the points have to remain the same with only minor tweaking in the seasons if necessary. Granted, when they add on new resorts, the new resorts seem to have a higher value in most cases, but if you look at Animal Kingdom villas, the standard view rooms are the same # of points as the standard view rooms at Boardwalk. The points values at Bay lake towers are high because they know that more people are going to want them. I think this is reasonable in this case. However, I believe Marriott should have a max cap on the number of points they will have on resorts. If Hawaii is going to be 58K points for Oceanview 2bd, then I do not believe any other new resort should be higher than this. 

3) Seasons- I think they should mimic Disney's 5 season plan. Everyone knows that platinum isn't always red time. Example- April or Oct in Williamsburg aren't very good traders, but yet are platinum. This is difficult to implement because all plat owners get the same number of points but could use less to stay in Oct. 

4) Maintenance fees- I am of the belief that maintenance fees should not come into play when determining the number of points available for that week. My MMC is lower in cost to run because it is in a lower cost area. That is the way it is. I shouldn't receive lower points because I bought in a lower cost area. It should be based on supply and demand. I also do not believe that those in lower seasons should be given a discount on the MF's if a points based system is implemented. You chose to buy a lower season and your discount was in the price you paid initially. There are costs involved in running your resort, and that is what the MF's are for. You still have the right to use your week in the way you originally purchased- as a week in that season- you do not have to join the points program and can continue using II for your exchanges in Flextime. 

5) Point values- unfortunately, it is commonly known that some resorts do not have the same trade values as others. Let's face it, the most highly requested resorts should have a higher point value. Hawaii and the caribbean should have a higher value than Williamsburg. Although I do have to say I am disappointed with this and may not choose the points program for my MMC and MSE weeks because of this. The other problem is that the platinum season is so long in some instances, that the June-Aug timeframe may be incredibly difficult to get all over, but the rest of the time is not, so this needs to be taken into consideration in places like HH and Myrtle beach. Sorry, but true- but this is also why I recommend the 5 season model since there are slower times in Hawaii as well even though it shows plat all year. 

6) Home resort priority- I think with any points program you need to keep the home resort priority without charging for it. PERIOD. Charging you for something you have if you just kept your week is insulting. Now, if you want to charge me to have priority on resort in which I do not own, this I could accept, but probably wouldn't take advantage of. 

7) Reservation timeframes- DVC uses 11months at your home resort and 7 months every where else. I like this format, but as others have said, makes getting FF miles difficult. I think I would like to see a 13 month timeframe for home resort and 10 or 11 months for anywhere else to be able to take advantage of the FF miles. 

8) Fees- charging me to use a points program is ridiculous. If you want to enhance the current program that is great- just do not charge me anything for it. Frankly, I won't pay a dime to enroll in a new points program. The fees of $159 are a little outrageous too. If this fee were to include my membership into II, then it might be worth it, but not per week. I think Worldmark includes the II membership in their fees, so I think that would be a nice enhancement, without breaking the bank. Although, $159 is still very high. Right now we pay that to II for an international exchange, granted we still have to pay for our membership, but we would still have to if they didn't include it in the $159 fee anyway. 

9) Flextime - I believe that Marriott should also have their own version of Flextime in points. I know Worldmark has reduced values for units booked within 60 days. I think Marriott should do the same. If it is 28K points to book Williamsburg in Oct, but there are still weeks left, then maybe they drop the value to half so it is like being able to get 2 weeks for your 1 just by using flextime. Or maybe if your value is only 14K because you own a lower season, you could still take advantage of flextime and get a larger unit, or a better season. 

Of course, we all know this is all speculation. We will not know what Marriott will do until they announce the new program. I am sure they are still trying to tweak it, but who knows, they might have it right around the corner and try to get it done by early 2009 for reservations starting in 2010. 

I would hope that this enhancement they are trying to do is exactly that, and not another money maker on their loyal customers. Although, if you don't like it, you can always stick with the way it has always been before. Weeks and exchanges through II, but will we still keep our priority? 

Just my 2 cents.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 21, 2008)

potchak said:


> 5) Point values- unfortunately, it is commonly known that some resorts do not have the same trade values as others. Let's face it, the most highly requested resorts should have a higher point value. Hawaii and the caribbean should have a higher value than Williamsburg. Although I do have to say I am disappointed with this and may not choose the points program for my MMC and MSE weeks because of this. The other problem is that the platinum season is so long in some instances, that the June-Aug timeframe may be incredibly difficult to get all over, but the rest of the time is not, so this needs to be taken into consideration in places like HH and Myrtle beach. Sorry, but true- but this is also why I recommend the 5 season model since there are slower times in Hawaii as well even though it shows plat all year..



The only problem with this is if a resort has only one season currently. Hawaii for example. If you assign five seasons then how do you divy up the points. Five seasons as follows: 10K, 7.5K, 5K, 2.5K, 1K. The problem is that everyone now owns platinum and they all deserve and want 10K points. Just try giving one of those owners 1K and see what happens. If you give everyone 10K points then you have an oversold resort. If you do this at many of the current resorts, then you have an oversold system and many unhappy owners when they can't book anywhere in the system. I don't see how they could change the seasons at resorts currently sold or selling. New resorts would be different though.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 21, 2008)

potchak said:


> Wow, lots of opinions here. Now I will add mine.



Wow - very well thought out and sensible, Michelle.  Some thoughts: 



potchak said:


> 1)I don't think Marriott will do anything more than offering MR points for those that purchase developer. If you look at DVC, there is no difference between resale and developer sales. I think they will need to keep it this way if they are actually going to keep the values high.



I'm still holding out hope for any kind of added value - priority at the check-in desk (all other things being equal, of course), or a further discount on flexchange-type offerings, or the moon maybe?  That's it, I'll keep reaching for the moon!   



potchak said:


> 4) Maintenance fees- .... I also do not believe that those in lower seasons should be given a discount on the MF's if a points based system is implemented. You chose to buy a lower season and your discount was in the price you paid initially. There are costs involved in running your resort, and that is what the MF's are for ....



Absolutely agree, with no regard for resale- or developer-purchase price.  MF have nothing to do with the individual weeks, everything to do with running the entire resort.



potchak said:


> 6) Home resort priority- I think with any points program you need to keep the home resort priority without charging for it. PERIOD. Charging you for something you have if you just kept your week is insulting. Now, if you want to charge me to have priority on resort in which I do not own, this I could accept, but probably wouldn't take advantage of.



Agree on the no-fees for home resort priority.  As we continue to exchange, though, I can see a point in the future where we find a new favorite and might pay for the priority of booking there on a semi-regular basis.  That's a nice feature, actually, and would be much less expensive than buying another week. 



potchak said:


> 7) Reservation timeframes- DVC uses 11months at your home resort and 7 months every where else. I like this format, but as others have said, makes getting FF miles difficult. I think I would like to see a 13 month timeframe for home resort and 10 or 11 months for anywhere else to be able to take advantage of the FF miles.



The only thing I'd add to this, Marriott should somehow continue with a multi-week ownership booking priority.  Maybe 13-month/12-month/10-month?  



potchak said:


> 8) Fees- charging me to use a points program is ridiculous. If you want to enhance the current program that is great- just do not charge me anything for it. Frankly, I won't pay a dime to enroll in a new points program....



I'd have to see the actual fees.  If the costs are comparable to the nickel-and-diming that happens now for exchanging and other options, I'd be satisfied. 



potchak said:


> 9) Flextime - I believe that Marriott should also have their own version of Flextime in points. I know Worldmark has reduced values for units booked within 60 days. I think Marriott should do the same. If it is 28K points to book Williamsburg in Oct, but there are still weeks left, then maybe they drop the value to half so it is like being able to get 2 weeks for your 1 just by using flextime. Or maybe if your value is only 14K because you own a lower season, you could still take advantage of flextime and get a larger unit, or a better season.



Love this idea! 



potchak said:


> Just my 2 cents.



Worth every penny.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 21, 2008)

Here is what I think Marriott may be thinking with regards to home resort priority. Say you own at NCV and you can't book those hard to get July weeks. Those willing to pay a fee will be guaranteed one of those weeks if they pay a fee. The number of priority "passes" sold will be limited but will lock in one of those weeks for you if you book by X date. I know many people will pay for this "privilege."


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 21, 2008)

*Fee for Joining the points program*

It is my understanding that Marriott does plan to charge a fee to those interested in joining the points program.

Also, the person I was speaking with indicated that Marriott will set different fees for different lengths of times that people wish to join, i.e. you can join for three years at XXX dollars, or you can join for ten years for XXX+ dollars.

Bottom line, you won't have to join forever, and you can try it out for a few years (assuming you select that option) and then decide to revert back to the Interval International method of trading.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 21, 2008)

cigarboo said:


> I think you're right about Marriott looking towards a DVC type points system.



There is NO way this will be anything close to DVC.  I highly doubt that ANY Marriott owners would trade their Marriott deeded ownership into an RTU that expires in 40-years.

If anything, Marriott should consider creating a Hyatt like system where everyone keeps their deeds and priorites until the time where all inventory gets automatically turned over to Hyatt.  That is what they should do.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 21, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what I think Marriott may be thinking with regards to home resort priority. Say you own at NCV and you can't book those hard to get July weeks. Those willing to pay a fee will be guaranteed one of those weeks if they pay a fee. The number of priority "passes" sold will be limited but will lock in one of those weeks for you if you book by X date. I know many people will pay for this "privilege."



Hmmmm.  To me, home resort priority means that points could be used to book at the resort where an owner bought, before an owner of a different resort can use his/her points to book there.  Michelle's idea of implementing a booking procedure similar to DVC's makes sense in that regard.

Your thought would prioritize owners of the same resort within seasons.  Hmmmmm.

We purposely bought one gold and one platinum week at the same resort with the notion that we'd try every year for the two weeks straddling Memorial Day weekend, knowing full well that we'd be competing with every other gold week owner for the prime last week of that season.

If Marriott offered what you propose, a priority pass for a select group of weeks within a certain season (i.e the four most-wanted July weeks of platinum season,) could they also offer a priority pass for a single week in a season?  Is there anything in the documents to prohibit either option?

Wait, wouldn't that be tantamount to offering a fixed-week option where it is not now available?

I'm just not sure what we'd be willing to pay for, but if the option is available and we don't take it while others do, we might never be able to use our weeks in the way that we intended when we bought.  It seems the odds are better for us the way it is now, without a point system and possible priorities.

So much to think about.


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## m61376 (Nov 21, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what I think Marriott may be thinking with regards to home resort priority. Say you own at NCV and you can't book those hard to get July weeks. Those willing to pay a fee will be guaranteed one of those weeks if they pay a fee. The number of priority "passes" sold will be limited but will lock in one of those weeks for you if you book by X date. I know many people will pay for this "privilege."



Except wouldn't you then be taking away from original purchasers' rights? After all, anyone buying into Platinum was told they would have an equal chance to secure one of those coveted weeks. If you enacted this policy, then you would essentially be making those July weeks a Platinum+extra fee and taking them out of the Platinum season that owners bought into.


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## JimC (Nov 21, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> There is NO way this will be anything close to DVC.  I highly doubt that ANY Marriott owners would trade their Marriott deeded ownership into an RTU that expires in 40-years.
> 
> If anything, Marriott should consider creating a Hyatt like system where everyone keeps their deeds and priorites until the time where all inventory gets automatically turned over to Hyatt.  That is what they should do.




I don't believe that poster was referring to DVC's limited term deeded ownership but rather how the points system works year-to-year.  It is a pretty flexible program but comes with a fairly steep premium which Disney can command.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 21, 2008)

JimC said:


> I don't believe that poster was referring to DVC's limited term deeded ownership but rather how the points system works year-to-year.  It is a pretty flexible program but comes with a fairly steep premium which Disney can command.



Disney's actual point program isn't much different than many others.  Technically, it's about average.  The reason why Disney's sell at a premium is that they are integrated into the theme park experience.  DVC resorts that are outside of the theme park setting don't do nearly as well.  

Disney has done a good job at showing the economics of owning vs. renting from Disney at a Disney resort.  That is why it keeps a premium.

Unless Marriott decides to move completely away from any semblance of a deeded week, then it can't come close to being like DVC.  In DVD, 10 points has a maintenance fee of 1/10th of a package worth 100 points at a given resort.    

When you own a deeded week, it has a maintenance fee based on the allocation the resort gives.  Therefore, just like in HGVC, Hyatt and others, maintenance fees vary by resort, season and unit size.  That is a HUGE difference that cannot be overlooked.  It is a far greater difference than viewing how points are used from one year to the next.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 21, 2008)

m61376 said:


> Except wouldn't you then be taking away from original purchasers' rights? After all, anyone buying into Platinum was told they would have an equal chance to secure one of those coveted weeks. If you enacted this policy, then you would essentially be making those July weeks a Platinum+extra fee and taking them out of the Platinum season that owners bought into.



An owner would still have the ability to book those weeks. Not all weeks would be the platinum+extra fee, only the one Marriott sells with the guaranty. The question made it seem that this option would be limited to x percentage of weeks/units. You wouldn't be taking anything away, just making it harder.


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## davidvel (Nov 21, 2008)

m61376 said:


> Except wouldn't you then be taking away from original purchasers' rights? After all, anyone buying into Platinum was told they would have an equal chance to secure one of those coveted weeks. If you enacted this policy, then you would essentially be making those July weeks a Platinum+extra fee and taking them out of the Platinum season that owners bought into.


No, the priority (and "new" system as a whole) would only apply to those weeks of owners that deposited into the "new" points system. If Marriott leverages these weeks ahead of owners who are not part of the system this would be an unfair business practice. (This is covered earlier in this thread.)


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## m61376 (Nov 22, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> An owner would still have the ability to book those weeks. Not all weeks would be the platinum+extra fee, only the one Marriott sells with the guaranty. The question made it seem that this option would be limited to x percentage of weeks/units. You wouldn't be taking anything away, just making it harder.



But making it harder would be an unfair business practice; I would not think Marriott could legally take reservable units out of the pool that everyone has access to, by selling guaranteed July reservations after the fact (since many people have already bought with the understanding that x number of weeks would be available for reserving).


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## JimIg23 (Nov 22, 2008)

I agree in part, I don't see them being able to guarantee one specific month of a season (lets say July or August - Platinum - in NCV), it would give a substantial disadvantage to other NCV Platinum owners who want summer and would see a substantial part of their season blocked off from getting.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 22, 2008)

As deeded property owners, MCVI members have the Right to Use their timeshare units according to their ownership and reservation system.  Any violation of those rights by Marriott would result in a class action law suit that Marriott would surely lose.

So, in order to create a point system, Mariott must create a program and agreement that has the owners assign their Right to Use rights to Marriott.  It could be in the form of a 3 year lease like RCI Points.  Or, it could be selling back to Marriott and redeeding into a new program. 

This means that the Marriott program goes nowhere unless it gets people to enroll enmasse.  I don't see it happening with what I see on this thread.


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## m61376 (Nov 22, 2008)

davidvel said:


> No, the priority (and "new" system as a whole) would only apply to those weeks of owners that deposited into the "new" points system. If Marriott leverages these weeks ahead of owners who are not part of the system this would be an unfair business practice. (This is covered earlier in this thread.)



Are you saying then that, if for example, 10% of owners opted into the new points system, then 10% of the villas would then be available for priority reservations? That makes sense.

I had read dioxide's post (perhaps erroneously) to mean that Marriott could now sell priority booking in the new points system, so that anyone buying into the system would get priority reserving the weeks (taking those coveted weeks out of the pool available for booking). If the priority is only given in proportion to the percentage of people opting into the new system, then the only people who would find it harder to book those coveted weeks are owners opting into the points system but not willing to pay for priority reservations. Original owners, if I am understanding what you are saying, would still maintain the proportional percentage of weeks which they could try to book. 

I guess my question is if 10% of the owners, for example, opted into the new system and purchased the added platinum+extra fee option to book those coveted July weeks, would now 10% of the total booking for that week be available for them to reserve, or would they be allowed to secure those July weeks and leave fewer coveted weeks for the non-points members to potentially book? If the priority for booking was limited to the points systems' share of weeks, then the losers in this case would be those opting into the new points system but not opting to pay more for priority reservations; in essence, Marriott would be finding a way to make people pay even more for what they sorta had in the first place (granted, they may get the benefit of reserving those coveted weeks, but not if enough of the people converting to points pay for the option, in which case they will be paying for nothing; alternatively, if they convert to points and don't opt for priority reservations, they better forget about having a chance to get a coveted week).


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## davidvel (Nov 22, 2008)

Yes, the new system can only contain those weeks of owners who opt in (or weeks Marriott legitimately obtains another way). 

My point, and also that of BOCABUM99 above, is that Marriott's new system cannot abrogate the rights of owners who don't join the program. In theory, it should be no different than II, Redweek, etc, in that owners would have to reserve their weeks and deposit them to the system. 

In practice however, my skeptical side sees Marriott implementing some "automated" system that would transfer the best weeks before non-participants have a chance to reserve them. This would clearly violate the CC&Rs and other governing documents which establish how weeks are reserved. Even if they transfer x% (those in the system) of any particular week it would violate because those weeks are reseved without people having to call in or go on internet and fight with everyone else. 

Many will note that this may be difficult to police, as Marriott controls all the reservation systems, but if they manipulate it they will end up in the same boat RCI is now. This will be closely watched by those who don't opt-in and Marriott better set up a compliant system.


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## travelinmom (Nov 29, 2008)

*point system*

I agree with the posts about the survey being confusing and too long!  I can see some of the benefits of the points system, but I think the way Marriott is proposing it will only benefit Marriott.  I own DVC points too.  They don't charge me to book a unit at Disney.  I also have a priority at my home resort.  Unless I missed something, Marriott wants me to pay extra to have a home resort priority.  I own 3 weeks in Myrtle Beach.  I bought them because that is where we like to go regularly.  I don't want another resort of a similar type ie: beach.  My family doesn't like Hilton Head.  The way I see their point system, I won't be given any type of priority to reserve my weeks at MB, but I'm going to be paying to maintain the resort through my maintenance fees.  If their system goes through that way, there will be 3 MB weeks for sale and I'll be done with Marriott.  I'll either buy more Wyndam or DVC points.

If I missed something with the home resort priority, please let me know!


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## PerryM (Nov 30, 2008)

*Never going to happen folks....*

There is NO way that Marriott is going to tinker with the existing system while the USA teeters with a total meltdown of our economy.  This is one of those things that follow the rule:

*"Do 99 things right and screw up just 1 thing and its game over"*

Maybe, after real estate calms down and our government gets done screwing with it Marriott will introduce a 100% sales oriented Point System but not for at least 2 - 4 years; if then.

I do, however, enjoy reading these posts once in a while and come away smiling; this is great entertainment to a system guy like me.

Happy holidays everyone.


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## sdtugger (Dec 1, 2008)

We just did the owners update in Maui.  Very nice salesperson said she didn't know anything about a new points system.  I asked her about the surveys and she said that she is an owner in Maui and didn't receive a survery and hadn't heard anything about any surveys.  I think she was telling the truth.

By the way, they lowered the points to 10K and the alternative dollars to $75 for attending the owners update.  Still, not bad for a 30 minute update.


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## GrayFal (Dec 1, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> Here is what I think Marriott may be thinking with regards to home resort priority. Say you own at NCV and you can't book those hard to get July weeks. *Those willing to pay a fee will be guaranteed one of those weeks if they pay a fee. The number of priority "passes" sold will be limited but will lock in one of those weeks for you if you book by X date.* I know many people will pay for this "privilege."


That 'privilege' is not Marriott's to sell. I own the right to reserve a 7 day period in my season of ownership...they do not control who reserves that time or when someone can reserve it (outside the 'standard' rules that apply to all owners.)

Sorry - this is not Marriott's to decide - it is in my contract of sale/deed.


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