# Resale vs. Retail - potential for policy changes?



## Catguy (Jan 26, 2010)

Does anyone know (or know where I could go for info on) the percentage of HGVC owners who bought through resale vs. retail?  Basically, I'm wondering whether HGVC views the resale market as a "threat" or as a small minority not worth fretting over....

I would think that as the number of resale purchases continues to grow as a percentage of total sales, HGVC would be inclined to take a more active role in discouraging it through policy changes designed to steer people towards retail purchases - maybe not in this economy, but eventually there'd have to be a tipping point somewhere.  

As I see it, the one down side to purchasing resale is the potential for future policy changes to negatively impact usage... but I don't have a handle on how low (or high) that potential is.  Thoughts?  References?


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## bosco0633 (Jan 26, 2010)

well they punish you by not allowing you to obtain elite status when you buy resale.  

I often wonder the same thing, whether or not resale will be punished for not buying from developer.  

My opinion is the following:

1.  Believe it or not, in this state of economy, people are still purchasing retail. Many people are affraid of purchasing resale because of scams and what not.  I just met a guy in Colorado that refused to purchase resale and was happy spending 3 times as much on an EOY.  Who am I to judge.  The bottom line is that they are still selling units.

2.  I believe that many people choose HGVC over other vacation clubs because they are assured that when they purchase resale there is really no restrictions for usage despite elite status.  I know that other systems have substantial penalties for people that buy resale.

3.  HGVC must allow resale, if they dont, they will wind up with a ton of forclosure units and this will ultimately cause a negative impact on their product.  Why would anyone buy retail when they know that they will never be able to sell it through resale.  I believe this will cause the market to crash.

Anyways, this is my opinion for what it is worth


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## mwwich (Jan 26, 2010)

bosco0633 said:


> 3.  HGVC must allow resale, if they dont, they will wind up with a ton of forclosure units and this will ultimately cause a negative impact on their product.  Why would anyone buy retail when they know that they will never be able to sell it through resale.  I believe this will cause the market to crash.



I think this is key.  It seems that desirable units are still bringing decent money on Ebay (some Marriott Platinums and Hyatt's are bringing $5K plus, some over $10K) and will likely recover some as the economy improves.  I would think the Marriott's/Hilton's/Hyatt's need to have some kind of floor on these that the resale market brings.  Any why have those units wind up in forclosure as noted above?  Plus resale owners will likely utilize other facilities/hotels owned by these brands if they are treated well at their timeshares.


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## JM48 (Jan 26, 2010)

I called & asked a customer service rep. last fall if they knew how many owners they had & she didn't know. 

 I am sure the number who bought retail is known but I don't think they will tell anyone.

 Another thing to remember is that we might be buying resale but they are still getting the same M/F from us as they get from the ones sold retail.

 Yes they make a LOT more money especially if they do the financing but they still need the M/F's to keep the place running.

Just my opinion! 

 JM


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## bosco0633 (Jan 27, 2010)

I dont think that they know to tell you the truth.  I have had a couple of incidents that lead me to believe this. 

First, during a presentation, they thought that I was the original purchaser of a resale unit that I had. They even offered to add to those points for elite status.

HGVC sent me a letter once stating that I have been an owner since 1996 when in fact I just became a member last year.  

Third when I spoke with someone on the phone one day they told me that they had no idea that I was a resale purchaser.  They actually told me that they had no way to confirm that on there end.


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## Talent312 (Jan 27, 2010)

bosco0633 said:


> I dont think that they know to tell you the truth.  I have had a couple of incidents that lead me to believe this.



I concur. Once you buy, the front-office seems to be clueless as to how. Look at your membership card. Mine says: "Member since 2001," and I bought in 2007. Perhaps they keep that info in a file that's pulled only when there's a transfer.


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## pianodinosaur (Jan 28, 2010)

HGVC points are treated the same regardless if purchased retail or resale with one exception.  HGVC points purchased resale do not count towards elite status.  I have elite plus status.  The benefits are very nice but do not compensate the difference in cost.  Therefore, I feel no guilt in using elite status to my advantage.  The owners who purchase resale pay the same MF's that I do.  In fact, HGVC advised me that my ownership can be sold prior to my purchase.  If I were to sell my ownership, it would be on the resale market by definintion.  Treating the points of the resale owner the same as my points helps maintain some of the value of my retail purchase.  

Reminder: HGVC only builds new resorts with the intent of selling retail.

Reminder: Program rules can change.  The HHonors program was recently devalued.


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## Catguy (Jan 28, 2010)

pianodinosaur said:


> HGVC points are treated the same regardless if purchased retail or resale with one exception.  HGVC points purchased resale do not count towards elite status.



I understand that this is currently the case, but is there anything that would prevent HGVC from revising this policy if their business model were to call for it, even if the likelihood is small (for the reasons given above)?  I'm trying to understand _potential risk_, not just present.


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## Talent312 (Jan 28, 2010)

Catguy said:


> I understand that this is currently the case, but is there anything that would prevent HGVC from revising this policy if their business model were to call for it, even if the likelihood is small (for the reasons given above)?  I'm trying to understand _potential risk_, not just present.



In theory, HGVC could deny conversion to HHonors, RCI exchanges, intra-club or hotel reservations, pool-use, or other club benefits... Blackstone could sell HGVC separate from Hilton Hotels. Heck they could hire hit-men; however...

What the other posters are saying is that, from all the evidence at hand, HGVC has shown no inclination to change the program and seems to understand that any significant changes, at least with with respect to their existing resorts, would not be worth the consequences.

If they tried to apply such shenanigans to any owner who bought under the current program (retail or resale),they'd likely find themselves the subject of a massive class-action lawsuit, and their lawyers would likely so advise them.

In fact, HGVC actually benefits from having these perks used by more members than less. Having members use their points for things other than home-week stays actually adds to their bottom-line and increases the program's intrinsic value. They grok that.


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## Bill4728 (Jan 28, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> In fact, HGVC actually benefits from having these perks used by more members than less. Having members use their points for things other than home-week stays actually adds to their bottom-line and increases the program's intrinsic value. They grok that.



I think so too.  It is hard to believe that the other Hotel based TS systems can't see this.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 28, 2010)

With ROFR and the opportunity to exercise it, HGVC is way ahead of the game for monitoring their resale prices.  

Most developers do not have a clue and do not care what price you paid.

Some are keeping benefits from you, like VIP and Elite Perks, which  Wyndham and HGVC are doing, but otherwise points are points.

At one point all timeshare would have to have been purchased retail from some developer.  After that initial sale, most do not track it.


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## chester1122 (Jan 29, 2010)

I own at Club Intrawest as well as HGVC.  Club Intrawest has implemented different user rights for re-sale owners. 
If a re-sale purchaser wants the same access to all the programs CI offers to a retail buyer, there is a minimum purchase price plus a per share surcharge that goes to CI.  
If the re-sale purchaser wants CI properties only and to deal with RCI on their own and the seller wants to sell below the published re-sale price then that transaction can take place.


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## hockeybrain (Jan 31, 2010)

I attended the owner update in Hawaii four days ago.   The first thing the guy said is that Blackstone is the best thing to happen to Hilton.   I figure everything the guys said is a lie and to me that was the first one - an most ominous one for us all.   The salesman or "advisor" as he put it claims that I need to buy some points directly through the developer because without buying directly through Hilton my 6200 platinum 1 bedroom plus HGVC points bought resale are "worthless" towards future developments (whatever that will mean).   My attempts to press got salesman speak and that future timeshares will cost more points (we already know that).   He said I "need" to buy 3400 every other year points anywhere in the sytem to maximize my ownership and I could start today by putting down $1595 towards owning an every other year gold 3400 point in Orlando with total purchasing price of $11000.   I said, thanks but no thanks and he let us out of the presentation right after that after 30 minutes with our Luo gift in hand, no hassles.   Owner update did not help me learn anything at all, and I really thought I was not going to go at all thinking what happened would happen, but I was enticed by the gifts was an owner there and it made sense to go to an update after all the hassles from the concierge's etc. , had some time and we did get a nice little gift because we enjoyed the Luo.   How was our stay - I'll go into that tomorrow on a previous thread I started about our stay of which we now returned home today.


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## Talent312 (Jan 31, 2010)

hockeybrain said:


> I attended the owner update in Hawaii four days ago. The first thing the guy said is that Blackstone is the best thing to happen to Hilton. I figure everything the guys said is a lie and to me that was the first one - a most ominous one for us all...



As if the guy is privy to the Blackstone BOD meetings. He's simply reading a script.
What interests me is what "gift" could be worth having to sit there and listen to all the BS?
My time is a valuable commodity and not something I give up lightly, especially so on vaction.


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## Talent312 (Jan 31, 2010)

[duplicate]


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## hockeybrain (Feb 1, 2010)

Our Hawaii time share owner update was not overtly hassling in any way.   It did not affect our vacation schedule this year so we attended.   Yes, the representative could very well have been reading from a script.


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## nacnud.ca (Feb 3, 2010)

*HGVC Resale*

I don't know if it is true, but two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units. Can someone comment on this?


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## Blues (Feb 3, 2010)

nacnud.ca said:


> I don't know if it is true, but two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units. Can someone comment on this?



Were his lips moving?  :rofl:


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## Bill4728 (Feb 3, 2010)

nacnud.ca said:


> I don't know if it is true, but two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units. Can someone comment on this?


NO This is not true. All HGVC owners have the same access to the weeks as any other owner.


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## Talent312 (Feb 3, 2010)

nacnud.ca said:


> ... two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units.



*Hogwash.*
The only distinction btw. retail+resale owners is that only a retail buyer can qualify for "elite" (they get a few benefits that the great unwashed do not). While some of the "Thurston Howell's" here revel in its perks, most of the brethren here do not consider that status to be worth paying retail prices. Bottom line: All "regular" owners are equal.


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## Aptman (Feb 3, 2010)

You have to listen carefully to the words they use, because they find ways of saying things that may be technically true, but functionally false.  In other words, if you have elite status, you have access to available units that others do not have access to - you can make reservations 12 months out at any location, even if it is not where you own (at least, I think that's what Elite does - it may be slightly different, but the principle is the same, people with Elite status can get make a reservation during a window that's normally closed to others in their position but who are not elite).  

Therefore, if they say you don't have the same access to available units if you buy resale, they are probably saying something that is false 99% of the time for 99% of the owners, but may be true once in a while for a few select owners.  If you're considering a 7000 point package, they may still tout the benefits of elite (without explicitly saying so) as being a benefit from buying directly so that you won't go and try to buy that package resale.  They just conveniently leave out the salient facts that show why the stuff they're saying doesn't apply to this particular buyer.

Years of being a lawyer and watching slimy politicians have taught me something.....


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## Seth Nock (Feb 5, 2010)

Aptman said:


> You have to listen carefully to the words they use, because they find ways of saying things that may be technically true, but functionally false.  In other words, if you have elite status, you have access to available units that others do not have access to - you can make reservations 12 months out at any location, even if it is not where you own (at least, I think that's what Elite does - it may be slightly different, but the principle is the same, people with Elite status can get make a reservation during a window that's normally closed to others in their position but who are not elite).



Actually, it is only 1 property that you can book 12 months out, and usually the property that has the most developer space.  Therefore, there will be plenty of inventory at the 9 month mark.  

We must remember, these are all deeded properties.  If the developer tries to mess with resales, they can get lawsuits.  Also, it makes it more difficult to sell retail if the resale prices are incredibly low.  Disney sells direct to many people who were considering resale because resale is not that discounted.  It benefits the developer to keep resale prices higher.


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## Carol C (Feb 5, 2010)

nacnud.ca said:


> I don't know if it is true, but two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units. Can someone comment on this?



I'll comment: "Baloney! Hogwash! Salesroom lie # ____"


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## pianodinosaur (Feb 5, 2010)

nacnud.ca said:


> I don't know if it is true, but two different HGVC sales person, one in LV and the other in CA, told us recently that the resale HGVC member don't have the same access to available HGVC units. Can someone comment on this?



The only advantage I have as an Elite Plus member is that if an upgrade is available at the time I show up, I *might *get it. Otherwise, there is no difference between your points purchased resale and my points purchased direct from HGVC in terms of access to available HGVC units, RCI exchanges, or cruises.


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 5, 2010)

There are a few of us grandfathered in to Elite status, even though I purchased my HGVC resale.  They no longer offer that back door into elite, but they did at one time.


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## ricoba (Feb 5, 2010)

Sandy Lovell said:


> There are a few of us grandfathered in to Elite status, even though I purchased my HGVC resale.  They no longer offer that back door into elite, but they did at one time.



As far as I know/remember, you are the only lucky TUGGER to have achieved this.   

As I remember it was back in the day when elite was first announced and even HGVC wasn't sure of the rules etc back then.


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## CaliDave (Feb 5, 2010)

ricoba said:


> As far as I know/remember, you are the only lucky TUGGER to have achieved this.
> 
> As I remember it was back in the day when elite was first announced and even HGVC wasn't sure of the rules etc back then.



I had it for a couple years.. just didn't talk about, figured it would get taken away.  This year they did take it away    enjoyed it while it lasted.. It probably only saved me a couple hundred bucks over the 3 years or so I had it.


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