# Watch Out When Doing A Wyndham Presentation, Especially If You Made A Purchase



## swankauai (Sep 13, 2010)

*Moderator Note:*The Original Subject of this thread by a first time poster was *Watch out when going to Presentations Wyndham Bali Hai* The title has been changed to aid Searches by future GUESTS. The initial post except for some minor modifications, primarily for spelling, is provided here in it's entirety: 



> I have been to several presentations with Wyndham. My sister happens to be a VIP owner. Last time we went to Kauai we went to a presentation.
> 
> They got this card which was supposed to get them great discounts for activities, but honestly I got better prices calling the companies on my own.
> 
> ...


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## Boetica (Sep 24, 2010)

*Ethical Sales*



swankauai said:


> I have been to several presentations with Wyndham.My sister happens to be a VIP owner. Last time we went to Kauai we went to a presentation.
> They got this card which was supposed to get them great discounts for actvities, but honestly I got better prices calling the companies on my own.
> My sister owns in Hawaii since 2007 and this folks pitched the need for them to buy more points at the Bali Hai or trade into Kauai to be able to get access to a so called  Premier Access. Supposedly if you are an owner in Kauai and you give it for exchange purposes to TPI (an exchange company available only for Hawaii owners and not other Wyndham owners) they give you two weeks in  their system. They showed us how a week at the Big Island is only 126,000 (you could give TPI a week in any Hawaiian Island as part of this Club) instead of 308,000 at the Bali Hai.  Therefore the pitch shows you how much cheaper it is to book a week in this way that allows you to pay so much less and get not one but 2 weeks.
> We did not buy that day and they gave us a tour extension so we could come back within 3 days keeping our On Tour Incentives option open.We were allowed to take some books with us. I called TPI to inquiere about this feature. They explained to me that the second week was a BONUS week that you could only book within 45 days or less . By the way, part of the pitch was that there is no exchange fees in TPI.TPI told me that there is only about 40 properties where you can exchange with no exchange fees, the rest do require an exchange fee and the second week ,the Bonus week ALWAYS requieres an exchage fee.
> ...




My friend and her husband got scammed at Wyndham in California.  The salesman knowingly and intentionally gave them false information in order to make a sale.  When they found out (months later) Wyndham refused to do anything about it, telling them that they should have read the contract.  Um, the sales pitch is not in the contract.  Apparently Wyndham doesn't care how the sales are made, as long as they are made.  VERY disreputable company


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## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2010)

Boetica said:


> When they found out (months later) Wyndham refused to do anything about it, telling them that they should have read the contract.  Um, the sales pitch is not in the contract.



This is typical in the timeshare industry.  In fact, the contracts usually state that any verbal promises are not binding - and the buyer signs off on that.


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## jjmanthei05 (Sep 24, 2010)

swankauai said:


> I have been to several presentations with Wyndham.My sister happens to be a VIP owner. Last time we went to Kauai we went to a presentation.
> They got this card which was supposed to get them great discounts for actvities, but honestly I got better prices calling the companies on my own.
> My sister owns in Hawaii since 2007 and this folks pitched the need for them to buy more points at the Bali Hai or trade into Kauai to be able to get access to a so called  Premier Access. Supposedly if you are an owner in Kauai and you give it for exchange purposes to TPI (an exchange company available only for Hawaii owners and not other Wyndham owners) they give you two weeks in  their system. They showed us how a week at the Big Island is only 126,000 (you could give TPI a week in any Hawaiian Island as part of this Club) instead of 308,000 at the Bali Hai.  Therefore the pitch shows you how much cheaper it is to book a week in this way that allows you to pay so much less and get not one but 2 weeks.
> We did not buy that day and they gave us a tour extension so we could come back within 3 days keeping our On Tour Incentives option open.We were allowed to take some books with us. I called TPI to inquiere about this feature. They explained to me that the second week was a BONUS week that you could only book within 45 days or less . By the way, part of the pitch was that there is no exchange fees in TPI.TPI told me that there is only about 40 properties where you can exchange with no exchange fees, the rest do require an exchange fee and the second week ,the Bonus week ALWAYS requieres an exchage fee.
> ...



If you are in sales, can you explain how you can ethically sell someone a product that you know will reduce in value by 95% at a minimum the day the rescission period is over? If you can explain that, then Wyndham might have a new strategy. Sorry for the sarcasm but the only way for them to sell this product is to lie or hope for stupidity and pray that it isn't found out for a couple weeks. Go Resale!  

Jason


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## Goofyhobbie (Sep 24, 2010)

*Pay Attentiion When Doing A Wyndham Presentation & Especially If You Purchased*

I have never worked in any aspect of the timeshare industry; but over the years, I have learned a great deal about that industry.

Wyndham, as far as I have been able to determine makes sure that every Buyer of Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) is fully informed in accordance with the state laws set-up to protect the consumer. Unfortunately, a breakdown usually falls in the lap of the consumer who simply fails to pay attention during the emotional purchase process.

The *Wyndham Vacation Ownership Contract Agreement and Installment Note* with the contract number clearly shown is by far the most important document that Buyer(s) receive when they make a purchase of a VOI.

Near the end of the Contract Agreement will be a reference to “ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS.”  In that paragraph it should be clearly stated that the parties to the Agreement will execute any additional documents which may be necessary or convenient to carry out the intent and purposes of the parties to the Agreement.

After a reference to the ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS a Buyer should take note of the rescission paragraph which specifically tells the Buyer the length of the rescission window and exactly how to rescind.  State law for the State where the property is situated provides for contract rescission (cancellation) IF done properly AND on time AND in writing.  The "in writing" part is very clearly specified at the time of the sale.

The ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS referred to in the Agreement should be in the possession of the purchaser of the VOI and available for perusal after the sale and during the state mandated rescission period.

The title of the specific document that Denise was probably referring to above may differ slightly but usually it is identifiable as a *“Statement of Understanding Vacation Ownership Interest Club Wyndham Plus.” *

In that document should be found paragraphs where the buyer provides his/her initials and acknowledges many things. I highly recommend that any individual considering a contract of purchase from Wyndham carefully review that document and ALL documents provided by Wyndham at the time of purchase while they can (during the rescission period.)

You will see statements similar if not exactly like the ones provided below and you will see the initials of the Buyer to the left of each statement which clearly acknowledge that the Buyer(s) have read the paragraphs.

If a Buyer fails to take his or her time to carefully read and understand what they are signing the state (Big Brother) has provided a rescission period; but it is the responsibility of the Buyer to use that rescission period effectively.

When reading the documents you should notice that Buyer(s) and a Wyndham Representative signed the overall document.

There are usually a dozen or more statements in the aforementioned document. Examples of what may be in the signed documents and initialed by the Buyer(s) usually include; but are not necessarily limited to statements like the ones provided below:



> I/We hereby acknowledge:
> 
> We have received no advice from SELLER, SELLER’S salesperson, or anyone on behalf of SELLER, relating to the deductibility under Federal or State tax laws, of interest or other expenses related to our purchase of the VOI.
> 
> ...



Just prior to the final paragraph of the aforementioned document, one should see something like this:



> I/We acknowledge that SELLER will not honor any verbal representations made to you (the Buyer) other than those documented in writing.



Then the final paragraph of the document will probably read something like the following just before signatures are applied:


> The undersigned Buyer(s), whether one or more, by signing in the space provided below, hereby certifies that he/she has read each and every one of the foregoing statements and that he/she understands each one and has had an opportunity to inquire of the SELLER with respect to these issues.


 
Please note that the referenced ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS will or should show the specific Contract Number: XXXXX-XXXXXX and it should have been signed by the appropriate Wyndham Representative and the individual purchasers. 

Those ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS should have been in the possession of the purchaser during the rescission period as provided to the Buyer by State Law. 

*For anyone still in their rescission period:*

Before a rescission is undertaken the Buyer should Use ONLY the address and procedures identified in the cancellation instructions --- do NOT ad lib, do NOT make phone calls and do NOT send e-mails.  NONE of those things are legally adequate and they do not substitute for following *EXACTLY* the cancellation instructions which should have been provided in the last paragraph of the Agreement that was signed.  

The time period deadline for cancellation varies from state to state (it's the state of the timeshare location that determines this deadline, not YOUR state of residence). A few states have a rescission window that is as short as three days and I believe there is at least one state where the rescission window is 15 days; but most states are somewhere in between. Most states are 5-7 business or calendar days). 

*Note:* It's the postmark date on your cancellation letter that determines whether you have met the deadline. Using certified mail, you will be provided with a date stamped receipt from the folks at the Post Office counter. To those still able to consider rescission remember get the rescission Postmark date applied to your cancellation letter before the last rescission day. 

If your cancellation letter is not postmarked within state law deadlines, the developer is NOT required to (and likely won't) process your cancellation request. So, if you're still within the rescission (cancellation) time period, get off the computer and go do it NOW!! If the contract rescission deadline has already passed, merely calling your credit card issuer to dispute the charge absolutely is NOT going to magically invalidate the Agreement Contract, which is a valid legal instrument enforceable within the appropriate state where the VOI is situated.  Remember that you as a Buyer  knowingly and voluntarily chose to execute and sign the Agreement Contract.

Most of us cannot help someone who has waited long after a rescission period has elapsed. To those of you who read this and are still in the rescission period - *RESCIND!*

Do it well before your time is up and then research here on TUG as to what if anything you should do to avail yourself of Wyndham Vacation Ownership.

If you have not yet rescinded and still have time to do so, please get it done effectively.  If, as a Buyer you failed to get things promised in writing, and/or you failed to carefully read and understand what is in writing you should rescind before the mistake bites you where it hurts the most.

Many come here irritated well after a rescission period has passed. If after the fact you feel the need to bring a grievance to the attention of the Attorney General’s Office where the VOI is situate keep in mind that the AG is looking for "best evidence." This can mean documentation of illegal acts with the company's own records. You don't have to copy them, just know where they are and what they show. If you cannot document misleading statements made at the time of sale, chances are you are not going to receive satisfactory redress of your grievance.


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## JimMIA (Sep 24, 2010)

Boetica said:


> Um, the sales pitch is not in the contract.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...but.  

The contract *is* the contract.  The sales pitch is the sales pitch.  And the *prudent* consumer really needs to understand the difference.





> Apparently Wyndham doesn't care how the sales are made, as long as they are made.


AND that the sales are not rescinded.  And that the sales comply with the _letter_ of the law; nothing more, nothing less.





> VERY disreputable company


This is not a great commentary on the company, but they are _"no worse than anybody else."  _They are a typical company in a very disreputable industry.


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## siesta (Sep 24, 2010)

re-read your post, glad you didn't buy.


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## teepeeca (Sep 25, 2010)

*Put It In Writing !!!*

Something "caught my eye"  ---

quote ---  I/We acknowledge that SELLER will not honor any verbal representations made to you (the Buyer) other than those documented in writing.  ---

Add an additional page, or pages, to the contract (under additional pages/documents), to include exactly what the salesperson told you, and have him/her initial the addendums.  Then, the "promises" will become part of the "seller's contract.

Of course, if the salesperson, and/or manager, will not agree to the addendums, then you know there were "mis-truths" (lies???) being spread around (can I call it manure/B.S.???) during the presentation, and that you would NOT be getting what was "promised".

Collect your "gifts", and walk away, with a clear conscience.

Tony


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## timeos2 (Sep 25, 2010)

*Understand one key item  NEVER, EVER buy Wyndham retail!*

There is virtually no case at this time that it makes sense to purchase any Wyndham Points at retail. Never. (Well, 99.99% of the time).

VIP is nonsense. You can get all the points you'll ever want, for very reasonable annual fees, for nothing but closing costs. To pay more than a penny a point is a total waste. To ever pay the $.12-$.18 they want is just insanity as the value on the day the rescind ends would be $.01 or less.

Ignore at your own financial risk. It is a great value system but only at resale price.


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## Shon_t (Sep 29, 2010)

> Guys, believe or not, I am a very positive person. I am in sales and I am extremely ethical. I feel that that sales floor should be trained to be more transparent. Not saying that every body on the sales floor is like that but a manager should be bullet proof and my experience was to say the least disappointing.



It has been a number of years since I have worked in sales, but ethically, I could never sell a product that I knew to cost more, or be inferior to other similar products.

If Wyndham sales were more transparent, people wouldn't buy. 

The downsides of buying retail are so extreme, as to make any positive benefits seem non-existent.


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## SusieQ927 (Oct 4, 2010)

wow

I just read the first post in this thread

we had the Wyndham presentation yesterday on Waikiki and got a 24 hour hold.  They were telling us about the PIC program and how our Hilton ownership (3 wks) could help us in thier program and we'd get Gold status.  We also heard the 2 for 1 week with Trading places and the $699 back for 1 week.

I am so glad I read this.  

We go back at 10 am and now we will say NO, we were so close to saying YES

Thank you Tuggers!

Susie Q (and a much relieved husband, Bob)


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 4, 2010)

Wyndham nearly sold you, being a Hilton owner?  I would never take Wyndham over Hilton.  I cannot imagine a worse decision.  If you chose to sell your Wyndham points, they have nearly zero value on the resale market.  Even if you owned 500K in points you purchased outright from them (around $50K, I believe, or maybe higher), your Gold VIP would not transfer to the new owner.  

If you cannot use your points and choose to rent reservations, they give you so many guest certificates free, and after that, you pay $99-$120 to add a guest name.  So if you use your points for small stays for friends, eventually you would start paying for the guest fees.  

As a Wyndham owner myself, I can say that we are all just waiting for the next shoe to drop; we know Wyndham will eventually reduce our value even more.  They are a greedy, self-serving company, and there is no other company that hates its own owners more than Wyndham corporate.

Wyndham despises its own owners.  No wonder resales don't even go for $1.00 on ebay.


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## melschey (Oct 4, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> As a Wyndham owner myself, I can say that we are all just waiting for the next shoe to drop; we know Wyndham will eventually reduce our value even more.  They are a greedy, self-serving company, and there is no other company that hates its own owners more than Wyndham corporate.
> 
> Wyndham despises its own owners.  No wonder resales don't even go for $1.00 on ebay.



I think Westgate might be a little worse.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 4, 2010)

melschey said:


> I think Westgate might be a little worse.


And they look positively angelic compared to the outfit that insinuated themselves at the Silver Lakes resort in California.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 4, 2010)

SusieQ927 said:


> ... about the PIC program and how our Hilton ownership (3 wks) could help us in thier program and we'd get Gold status...
> Thank you Tuggers!
> 
> Susie Q (and a much relieved husband, Bob)



Except Wyndham has ONLY allowed an owner to PIC 2 other TS weeks, *NOT 3*, for the last several years when you buy directly from the developer.

I figure your "GOLD" status would be because of BONUS Points which are one time and have a "shelf life" of one usage over 18 months. By then, you would be beyond the 7 day rescind period. 

Be very glad you found TUG. And Bob really owes you!


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 4, 2010)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> And they look positively angelic compared to the outfit that insinuated themselves at the Silver Lakes resort in California.



Do spill, Steve.  Tell us about Silver Lakes.  Is there a thread somewhere?  I want to feel better about Wyndham.


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## timeos2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*How to devalue a great value 101. See "Wyndham"*



rickandcindy23 said:


> Do spill, Steve.  Tell us about Silver Lakes.  Is there a thread somewhere?  I want to feel better about Wyndham.



Cindy et al - why worry about Wyndham sales? We do not have to deal with them in anyway (OK, maybe to free a parking pass) unless we choose to do so.

Yes they are some of the worst (Wastegate being the obvious even worse but there are others) and they may hold the record for pitching THE worst (and quickest fall) true resale value ($.00 to $.02 ) to retail purchase price ($.12 to $.19!) in timeshare (you are GUARANTEED to have that near zero resale value on your retail points the very minute your right to rescind expires) so they are really under the gun every working day.  What type of genius bosses must there be in that organization for it to have evolved into what we see today. Work for these folks? Heaven help you.  

Can you imagine going in to sell some couple a luxury vacation package, with or without the un-guaranteed and also often devalued (as if it could be anything less) "VIP" nonsense used to try to justify the indefensible higher cost per point - all the while knowing they could get the same package FREE if they looked on line.  What type of person can even do that?  These folks do not deserve a second thought from us except to maybe pity them if they have a heart at all. 

Wyndham created a great system, got the thing going well, has created a large portfolio of high quality resorts in some standard and some unique locations - far more variety and choices than Marriott or Hilton or Hyatt - those are stuck on two to four areas and ignore the rest of the world. Wyndham actually went out and got their system into places people wanted where others aren't like Washington DC, Atlantic City, etc.  It is one of the very best for internal choices (always the best value in a points system).  The fact that they stupidly decided to purposely undermine resale value actually helped those of us who exclusively buy resale - but hurt the retail buyer and certainly their own retail sales - really doesn't matter. We can just ignore it as if you buy in at <$.01 what do you care if you cash put at <$.01?   It only hurts them and we can laugh all the way to the poolside enjoying the great, low cost system they created. 

Maybe someday they will wake up and try to revive resale values (don't hold your breath) and then the value will really skyrocket and everyone will be happy. 

A the little piggy said "wee wee wee wee" all the way home too.

Ignore Wyndham sales and enjoy Wyndham Resorts. It worked for us.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 4, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> ... Wyndham created a great system, got the thing going well, has created a large portfolio of high quality resorts in some standard and some unique locations - far more variety and choices than Marriott or Hilton or Hyatt - those are stuck on two to four areas and ignore the rest of the world. Wyndham actually went out and got their system into places people wanted where others aren't like Washington DC, Atlantic City, etc.  It is one of the very best for internal choices (always the best value in a points system).
> 
> A the little piggy said "wee wee wee wee" all the way home too. :hysterical:
> 
> Ignore Wyndham sales and enjoy Wyndham Resorts. It worked for us.



Works for me, too.

Their owner's manual explains the rules. This is not the owner's manual for your car where you look at when a light is flashing red and a voice is saying "DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER". The Wyndham book should only be read IF you want to keep your money and not pay fees you can avoid.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 4, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I want to feel better about Wyndham.


Just as curiosity have you ever had a truly horrible stay at a Wyndham property where you did an internal exchange?  Like a hair-raising "don't make me stay here" sort of holiday? If the answer is no, then that alone might make you feel better about your Wyndham ownership.  As a VIP Plat you also have the advantage of upgrades and discounts not available to non-Plats which will at least help you eek out additional value (albeit slowly, over time).  Purchase of ANY TS really shouldn't be about the $$ investment unless you went into it specificly to be in the rental business.  It's about the investment of your holiday time and being with people you love while visiting places you normally wouldn't go.


timeos2 said:


> Ignore Wyndham sales and enjoy Wyndham Resorts. It worked for us.


WOW! I completely agree with John on something.  Rare, but it happens.  :whoopie:  And to further support him in this thread, Westgate is by far the worst experience we have ever had in TS.  Wyndham irritations and foibles totally pale in comparison to the Westgate capacity for horrid.  We are always happy to send friends and family to Wyndham properties.  I would be mortified to even consider suggesting a Westgate product to them.  In this respect alone we are glad we are Wyndham owners.  It's not the bottom, really it isn't.


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## melschey (Oct 4, 2010)

BellaWyn said:


> Wyndham irritations and foibles totally pale in comparison to the Westgate capacity for horrid.  We are always happy to send friends and family to Wyndham properties.  I would be mortified to even consider suggesting a Westgate product to them.  In this respect alone we are glad we are Wyndham owners.  It's not the bottom, really it isn't.



We exchanged into Westgate Vacation Villas in Orlando. We took the advice of some on this board about avoiding the TS Weasels and we had a good time. It was a nice property, but we have never exchanged into a property where we encountered so many very  unhappy owners.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 4, 2010)

melschey said:


> We exchanged into Westgate Vacation Villas in Orlando. We took the advice of some on this board about avoiding the TS Weasels and we had a good time. It was a nice property, but we have never exchanged into a property where we encountered so many very  unhappy owners.



For someone who has only gone through a Wyndham presentation and only have bought Wyndham resale. What does Westgate do that makes them far and away the worst TS Company? Threaten to keep your first born or something?

Jason


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