# Low cost entrance into Worldmark



## go_mustangs

Good Morning,

I am a current owner of a fixed 1br week in South Africa (Silversands) who lives in California.  I've enjoyed some wonderful trades via RCI with my week but it seems to be getting more and more difficult to secure quality trades.  I recently attended a Worldmark presentation to learn more about their system as I have traded into Worldmark resorts before (Tahoe & Angles Camp) and enjoyed both.

Here's my question....

What is the lowest cost option for entering into the Worldmark system and being able to convert my Silversands week into Worldmark credits?  Is there a minimum number of credits I would need to aquire to do this?  If so, what is that number?  At the presentation I was told that the Silversands week would be worth 7000 Worldmark credits.  That seems like a great way to get more out of the week, but I'm uncertain if it would be cost effective.  Any suggestions you might have will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## K2Quick

What you're talking about is the Worldmark Exchange Plus Program.  In a nutshell, if you have a WM account, you deposit your non-WM week with RCI.  Then you fill out a form and fax it to the WM Exchange department and pay $129 and they convert your week into WM credits (how many credits you get depends on the unit size and season surrendered).  Here's a detailed discussion on it:

http://wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6079

You should be able to do this with any WM account.  The smallest size you can buy is 5,000 credits but 6,000 and 7,000 credit accounts are much more commonly available.  You should expect to pay from 30 cents to 40 cents per credit plus the $299 transfer fee for an account of those sizes (price will vary depending on where you buy it from and how many unused credits the account has).


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## Rent_Share

The smallest contract you can own is 5,000 annual credits. 

There is plenty of discussion on WMOWNERS.com Most of the regulars love their Worldmark Points Membership, just do not like Wyndham's attempt's to improve their profit at the expense of the existing members

Since you own in South Africa I am assuming your not risk adverse

Study the completed eBay Auctions and make sure you do an apples to apples comparison, there no doubt will be a post from a week owner that simply divides the annual points by the final bid and declare that as the market price, totally ignoring that the account may not have any points to use, or the seller is charging a closing company fee to change names on a membership where there is no recorded deed or may be asking for reimbursement of maintenance fees.


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## K2Quick

I would also add that I wouldn't make Exchange Plus the sole basis for your decision to buy into WM.  It sounds like a benefit they could take away at any time they choose or perhaps make it available to only those who purchased developer credits (although it seems to be open to all owners today).


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## Rent_Share

WM makes a good choice for trading without the exchange plus, noT to mention it's a mini system with almost half of their locations being drivable from CA

The MF's are some of the lowest


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## LLW

go_mustangs said:


> Good Morning,
> 
> I am a current owner of a fixed 1br week in South Africa (Silversands) who lives in California.  I've enjoyed some wonderful trades via RCI with my week but it seems to be getting more and more difficult to secure quality trades.  I recently attended a Worldmark presentation to learn more about their system as I have traded into Worldmark resorts before (Tahoe & Angles Camp) and enjoyed both.
> 
> Here's my question....
> 
> What is the lowest cost option for entering into the Worldmark system and being able to convert my Silversands week into Worldmark credits?  Is there a minimum number of credits I would need to aquire to do this?  If so, what is that number?  At the presentation I was told that the Silversands week would be worth 7000 Worldmark credits.  That seems like a great way to get more out of the week, but I'm uncertain if it would be cost effective.  Any suggestions you might have will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.





Here's the Exchange Plus credits table:

Unit Type RED YELLOW GREEN 

Studio 4,000 3,000 2,000 

One Bedroom 7,000 5,000 3,000 

Two Bedroom 8,000 6,000 4,000 

Three Bedroom 9,000 7,000 5,000 

If you have a red 1BR, you would get 7000 credits. 7000 X 6 cents market   rental value - $129 Exchange Plus fee = $291. You would also have the RCI/II membership fee. (Only owners can rent credits.)

Worldmark has great trade power in both RCI and II.

Read the above wmowners.com link for more details. It is important, as has been noted, that the Exchange Plus program can be taken away by Wyndham at any time.

**********************************************

The following are credit values for exchanges into RCI/II:

Size...........Red.......Yellow(White).....Green(Blue) 
Studio........8000......6000..................4000 
1BR............9000......7000..................5000 
2BR............10000.....8000..................6000 
3BR............12000.....9000..................7000 
Flexchange/Instant Exchange 
..................4000......4000..................4000

As you have found out, Worldmark resorts are very nice, and there are over 70 that you can reserve without paying an exchange fee. To see them all, click here:
https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/resorts/

The credit values needed for each resort may be found on each resort's page.

Welcome to Worldmark!


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## ronparise

So sum up exchange plus...You can exchange non Worldmark weeks for Worldmark Credits

The maintenance fees for Worldmark credits are cheap but when you swap weeks for credits you can end up paying quite a bit  for your Worldmark credits

Back to the title of this thread:  > Low cost entrance into Worldmark.  You cant get into Worldmark with Exchange Plus. You have to already be in Worldmark and Worldmark is not cheap to get in. A typical 2 bedrooms takes 10000 credits to  reserve. and  10000 credits on the secondary market costs between 30 and 40 cents. So the cost of entry at this level is $3000+.  

There are from time to time Worldmark contracts that come available with assumable loans. You end up paying more in the end for these. Especially ones that require no down payment.  But if keeping the cost of entry low is the goal, a no down payment deal does that


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## CraigWMF

WorldMark is really great.   I see you said you attended a WorldMark presentation.   I have bought credits from WYN and from the resale market.   There is a huge differance in price and the product is the same.   That is the use of wonderful WM resorts.   Buy resale should you decide to join!


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## JudyS

K2Quick said:


> I would also add that I wouldn't make Exchange Plus the sole basis for your decision to buy into WM.  It sounds like a benefit they could take away at any time they choose or perhaps make it available to only those who purchased developer credits (although it seems to be open to all owners today).


Good point! I am also considering buying Worldmark, and Exchange Plus is one of the features that interest me. However, the current Exchange Plus form actually says that to participate in Exchange Plus, owners must be part of "TEN" (Worldmark's *T*ravel *E*xchange *N*etwork). TEN is available only for developer purchases (and maybe for people who bought years ago, before Worldmark started limited privileges for resale purchasers -- I'm not sure) However, so far, the "TEN members only" rule does not seem to be enforced for Exchange Plus. (If anyone here is non-TEN and has been turned down for Exchange Plus, I definitely want to hear about it.)

It's not worth paying developer prices just to get 7,000 points for your SA week. If you buy resale, Worldmark might take away your ability to do Exchange Plus (and they could cancel the program for everyone, if they want to.) So, I would say to buy only if Worldmark would still be worth it to you without Exchange Plus. And of course, buy resale.


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## JudyS

Rent_Share said:


> ...
> Study the completed eBay Auctions and make sure you do an apples to apples comparison, there no doubt will be a post from a week owner that simply divides the annual points by the final bid and declare that as the market price, totally ignoring that the account may not have any points to use, or the seller is charging a closing company fee to change names on a membership where there is no recorded deed or may be asking for reimbursement of maintenance fees.


Another good point! I recently saw someone on eBay who wanted $345 for "closing" in addition to the $299 Worldmark transfer fee.

How hard is it for an individual seller/buyer to handle the transfer with Worldmark? Is there a form Worldmark uses to transfer the ownership? If so, does the form require notarization? Any other paperwork involved? 

While we're on this topic, where do people here suggest buying Worldmark? Timeshare Angels? Some other broker? Do you save enough buying on eBay to make it worth the hassle (of buying from someone who maybe doesn't know what they own, etc?)

Thanks for any info!


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## jhoug

*Worldmark points*

I have used Timeshare Angels for buying extra Worldmark annual points and adding extra one-time use points and they were great.  Fast transaction etc. 
Can't rememember the exact price for the annual points but was about 1/2 retail.  Worldmark points hold a little bit better value than Wyndham points.
Adding one time use points was about the cost of maintenance fees.


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## ronparise

JudyS said:


> Another good point! I recently saw someone on eBay who wanted $345 for "closing" in addition to the $299 Worldmark transfer fee.
> 
> How hard is it for an individual seller/buyer to handle the transfer with Worldmark? Is there a form Worldmark uses to transfer the ownership? If so, does the form require notarization? Any other paperwork involved?
> 
> While we're on this topic, where do people here suggest buying Worldmark? Timeshare Angels? Some other broker? Do you save enough buying on eBay to make it worth the hassle (of buying from someone who maybe doesn't know what they own, etc?)
> 
> Thanks for any info!



The process to close a Worldmark contract is pretty easy and something that almost any buyer and seller can do working together. The key is that they have to work together and there are deadlines. If Wyndham doesn't get it back in time, the deal is dead and you have to start over. And  unlike most deeded timeshares, both parties to a Worldmark contract have to sign and both parties have to have their signatures notarized, which adds time to the process.

The process is this:

1) seller provides Wyndham with the buyers info and requests that transfer papers be prepared and sent back to the seller
2) Seller gets papers back from Wyndham, signs their part and sends the package to the buyer to sign
3) Buyer signs and sends it back to the seller
4) Seller sends it to Wyndham.

If the buyer is combining the new purchase with one they already own, it's a little more complex,  even more complex if they are assuming a loan'
Its helpful if one party or the other has done it before 

The reason we hire someone to do this relatively simple process is that there is usually some money involved and the parties are usually strangers to each other.   Its worth a few hundred dollars to hire  a third party to hold the money.

Ive purchased from brokers, including Timeshare Angels, that I met on ebay as well as an individual that I met on ebay...In every case they had a licensed and bonded escrow service.


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## Rent_Share

Worldmark prepares the forms so why would you pay a closing company


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## cotraveller

JudyS said:


> Good point! I am also considering buying Worldmark, and Exchange Plus is one of the features that interest me. However, the current Exchange Plus form actually says that to participate in Exchange Plus, owners must be part of "TEN" (Worldmark's *T*ravel *E*xchange *N*etwork). TEN is available only for developer purchases (and maybe for people who bought years ago, before Worldmark started limited privileges for resale purchasers -- I'm not sure) However, so far, the "TEN members only" rule does not seem to be enforced for Exchange Plus. (If anyone here is non-TEN and has been turned down for Exchange Plus, I definitely want to hear about it.)
> 
> It's not worth paying developer prices just to get 7,000 points for your SA week. If you buy resale, Worldmark might take away your ability to do Exchange Plus (and they could cancel the program for everyone, if they want to.) So, I would say to buy only if Worldmark would still be worth it to you without Exchange Plus. And of course, buy resale.



I don't know about current enforcement of the TEN members only rule for Exchange Plus, but if too many people start using it who are not members of TEN I would be willing to bet that the rule would be enforced.

Several years back some owners were abusing the Exchange Plus program by dumping many weeks into it.  That's when the rules were changed to limit an owner to a maximum of 4 weeks per year deposited into Exchange Plus.  It's a developer program, the rules can be changed at any time, without any advance notice.  Buying WorldMark for the specific purpose of using Exchange Plus is not a good idea.


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## JudyS

cotraveller said:


> I don't know about current enforcement of the TEN members only rule for Exchange Plus, but if too many people start using it who are not members of TEN I would be willing to bet that the rule would be enforced.
> 
> Several years back some owners were abusing the Exchange Plus program by dumping many weeks into it.  That's when the rules were changed to limit an owner to a maximum of 4 weeks per year deposited into Exchange Plus.  It's a developer program, the rules can be changed at any time, without any advance notice.  Buying WorldMark for the specific purpose of using Exchange Plus is not a good idea.


I agree with all of this.


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## K2Quick

Rent_Share said:


> Worldmark prepares the forms so why would you pay a closing company



I wouldn't want to pay for a full close, but I will insist on paying for a basic escrow service.  I'm not going to send thousands of dollars to a complete stranger without some protection.  On my last purchase, I opened a basic escrow account with JRA for $100 and the funds weren't released to the seller until I received notification from Wyndham that the account was transferred into my name.  That service was worth every penny to me.


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## ronparise

Rent_Share said:


> Worldmark prepares the forms so why would you pay a closing company



To hold the money


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## sue1947

Reputable resellers of WM:
  This thread has recommendations by WM owners:  http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16837

I've used and can recommend: www.timeshareliquidationservice.com,
www.wmcredits.net, www.besttimeshare.net and timeshare angels.  

Sue


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## jhoug

*worldmark has a way to keep track where you bought the points*

My retail points show "WM + A" (affiliate) for the developer purchased points. 
The resale points just show "WM" and can't be used for some things. 
However it is a bit more confusing than Wyndham knowing which points they used,  it is usually split almost equally when confirming online.  I suppose you'd have to call a VC to get just ones taken out of one pool.


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## ronparise

cotraveller said:


> I don't know about current enforcement of the TEN members only rule for Exchange Plus, but if too many people start using it who are not members of TEN I would be willing to bet that the rule would be enforced.
> 
> Several years back some owners were abusing the Exchange Plus program by dumping many weeks into it.  That's when the rules were changed to limit an owner to a maximum of 4 weeks per year deposited into Exchange Plus.  It's a developer program, the rules can be changed at any time, without any advance notice.  Buying WorldMark for the specific purpose of using Exchange Plus is not a good idea.



The flip side of this is also true..dont buy weeks for the specific purpose of exchanging them for Worldmark Credits..Its usually not cost effective, and of as has been stated, Wyndham can change things whenever they care to.

As you say the limit is currently 4 weeks a calendar year. Its not 4 weeks every 12 months, and its not tied to your anniversary month..... I did 4 in December and another 4 in January..And unlike a lot of things with Wyndham..This process works well. from the time I faxed my request (and credit card number) to them, it took less than 10 days and the credits were in my account


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## JudyS

sue1947 said:


> Reputable resellers of WM:
> This thread has recommendations by WM owners:  http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16837
> 
> I've used and can recommend: www.timeshareliquidationservice.com,
> www.wmcredits.net, www.besttimeshare.net and timeshare angels.
> 
> Sue


Thanks, Sue!



I have some general questions about Worldmark prices. Worldmark seems to have held its value much better than many other timeshares. On the resale market, Worldmark credits go for maybe 20% of the current developer cost, while a lot of other timeshares have no value at all.

Why has Worldmark held its value? Is it because it has an "efficient" market (WM credits are all the same thing, so there are no problems with trying to find the right resort/season/unit size to buy?) But what about things Worldmark has done to devalue ownership -- building resorts in undesirable places, charging high credit values for new resorts, introducing Travelshare -- why hasn't that hurt resale prices more?


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## Rent_Share

JudyS said:


> Thanks, Sue!
> 
> why hasn't that hurt resale prices more?


 
6-7 years ago they traded at 50 %  of retail


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## JudyS

Rent_Share said:


> 6-7 years ago they traded at 50 %  of retail


Very interesting! I didn't know that. Has the price gradually dropped over the past 6-7 years, or was there a sudden drop at some point? Also, what are Worldmark prices doing now -- holding steady, recovering, or continuing to fall?


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## ronparise

JudyS said:


> Thanks, Sue!
> 
> 
> 
> I have some general questions about Worldmark prices. Worldmark seems to have held its value much better than many other timeshares. On the resale market, Worldmark credits go for maybe 20% of the current developer cost, while a lot of other timeshares have no value at all.
> 
> Why has Worldmark held its value? Is it because it has an "efficient" market (WM credits are all the same thing, so there are no problems with trying to find the right resort/season/unit size to buy?) But what about things Worldmark has done to devalue ownership -- building resorts in undesirable places, charging high credit values for new resorts, introducing Travelshare -- why hasn't that hurt resale prices more?



I think you are missing the biggest driver of resale value. For me the number one consideration is the maintenance fee. 

In spite of the things you mention which certainly do have a negative influence on price Worldmark has very low maintenance fees (also no guest fees and no transaction fees) and those low fees have a positive influence


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## K2Quick

JudyS said:


> Why has Worldmark held its value? Is it because it has an "efficient" market (WM credits are all the same thing, so there are no problems with trying to find the right resort/season/unit size to buy?) But what about things Worldmark has done to devalue ownership -- building resorts in undesirable places, charging high credit values for new resorts, introducing Travelshare -- why hasn't that hurt resale prices more?



As has been pointed out, WM is selling for quite a bit less today than it was a few years back which is why I finally jumped into WM game a couple years back.  But, as you point out, WM does retain some value as opposed to many other systems.  In my opinion this is primarily due to:

1) Not having a home resort and having a ton of possible drive-to locations means most members won't get bored with their ownership.
2) Charging members more for high-season and less for low-season makes for a more sustainable business model.  In most other systems, people pay the same maintenance fee regardless of season.  For example, a summer Phoenix timeshare week has the same maintenance fees as a much more desirable Spring or Winter week.  Once reality sets in, owners of the less desirable weeks end up defaulting and maintenance fees for other owners go up to absorb the defaults.
3) The flexibility is probably the best of any system I've seen (multiple locations, ability to book less than full weeks, bonus time availability, ability to transfer one-time credits among members, exchange relationships with both II and RCI).

Here is the one thing that will cause the value to erode continually over time, though, in my opinion: People these days get excited when their maintenance fees increase "only" at a rate of 4% while at the same time real-world price indexes and paychecks are increasing around 3%.  That is not sustainable.  Eventually it will get to the point where you're better off renting from a third party and the membership with its mandatory maintenance fee becomes more of a liability than an asset.  Any timeshare whose maintenance fee increases at a rate greater than inflation will have its value approach zero.  WM's maintenance fees have been kept more in check than many others, but it is still growing faster than inflation.


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## JudyS

ronparise said:


> I think you are missing the biggest driver of resale value. For me the number one consideration is the maintenance fee.
> 
> In spite of the things you mention which certainly do have a negative influence on price Worldmark has very low maintenance fees (also no guest fees and no transaction fees) and those low fees have a positive influence


I know that MFs are a huge factor in resale prices, but I haven't really had a good feeling for how high or low Worldmark's MFs are. (Other than Worldmark is a very good value for trading in II, which is the main thing that interests me about Worldmark.) But, if most red two-bedrooms are 10,000 credits and credits can be rented for 7 cents, that would be a MF of $700 for a two-bedroom (and less in the off-season), which _is_ pretty good. And, if one actually owns a lot of WM credits, the cost would be lower. Thanks for the information, Ron. 

Thanks, also, K2Quick. I have some thoughts on your analysis that I hope to write up later.


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## markb53

K2Quick said:


> As has been pointed out, WM is selling for quite a bit less today than it was a few years back which is why I finally jumped into WM game a couple years back.  But, as you point out, WM does retain some value as opposed to many other systems.  In my opinion this is primarily due to:
> 
> 1) Not having a home resort and having a ton of possible drive-to locations means most members won't get bored with their ownership.
> 2) Charging members more for high-season and less for low-season makes for a more sustainable business model.  In most other systems, people pay the same maintenance fee regardless of season.  For example, a summer Phoenix timeshare week has the same maintenance fees as a much more desirable Spring or Winter week.  Once reality sets in, owners of the less desirable weeks end up defaulting and maintenance fees for other owners go up to absorb the defaults.
> 3) The flexibility is probably the best of any system I've seen (multiple locations, ability to book less than full weeks, bonus time availability, ability to transfer one-time credits among members, exchange relationships with both II and RCI).
> 
> Here is the one thing that will cause the value to erode continually over time, though, in my opinion: People these days get excited when their maintenance fees increase "only" at a rate of 4% while at the same time real-world price indexes and paychecks are increasing around 3%.  That is not sustainable.  Eventually it will get to the point where you're better off renting from a third party and the membership with its mandatory maintenance fee becomes more of a liability than an asset.  Any timeshare whose maintenance fee increases at a rate greater than inflation will have its value approach zero.  WM's maintenance fees have been kept more in check than many others, but it is still growing faster than inflation.



It should also be mentioned that over the last 4 years, according to the MF spreadsheet on Wyndham owners forum, CWA (Club Wyndham Access) has gone up a total of under 2%, less than 1/2 percent per year. Which I believe is why the ebay auctions for CWA contracts are inching up. 2 years ago, CWA contracts would rarely sell for more than $1, if they sold at all. Now they routinely sells for more than a dollar. Sometimes a lot more than a dollar.


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## benyu2010

JudyS said:


> I know that MFs are a huge factor in resale prices, but I haven't really had a good feeling for how high or low Worldmark's MFs are. (Other than Worldmark is a very good value for trading in II, which is the main thing that interests me about Worldmark.) But, if most red two-bedrooms are 10,000 credits and credits can be rented for 7 cents, that would be a MF of $700 for a two-bedroom (and less in the off-season), which _is_ pretty good. And, if one actually owns a lot of WM credits, the cost would be lower.



WM MF is very low compare to similar units among timeshare resorts in various forms of ownerships. Not to mention this is point system with upmost flexibility and liberal res/canc policies.

Small contracts, 5K(min)-10K deserves a premium because of ownership's flexibility of borrowing, cash option and one-time credit rental. 30K and larger generally reflects the true value of an ownership on a per point basis. 

http://www.wmtsinfo.com/item/81

MF is the same for any size. There is a club fee per account @ about $125 (anyone may give an accurate #? Thank you)

For example, 50K with MF $2,551.78, you get 50K credits and 5 HKTs per year. The cost of credit is about 4.5 cents per credit and $60 per HKT (you did not count the cost of HKT per ressie in your calculation). Ongoing rental rate for credit is up to 7 cents and $70 for HKT. Mathematically, it was inevitable to reach zero value with Wyndham Control BOD continousely raise MF near 5% cap under governing doc, regardless, and other form of credit dilutions. But, it may take at least 7-10 years to get there after adjustment of inflation. So, it retains some value and vaporizes slowly, and get a big bounce due to general market condition lately. Exchange trading power, commercial rental values and skyhigh developer retail price $2+ also helps to support its pricing.

Two cents of a WM newbie


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## nomadio

One of the current eBay auction items for Worldmark states:

_Please note WorldMark now restricts owners to transferring one ownership per year meaning if you have purchased an ownership on the resale market within the past 12 months please note that this would not successfully transfer into your name._

So, if I've already bought a resale account this year, am I unable to I buy another resale account this year (such as the advertised item)?  Or is it just that I cannot combine it with the one I already own?  Thanks.


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## LLW

nomadio said:


> One of the current eBay auction items for Worldmark states:
> 
> _Please note WorldMark now restricts owners to transferring one ownership per year meaning if you have purchased an ownership on the resale market within the past 12 months please note that this would not successfully transfer into your name._
> 
> So, if I've already bought a resale account this year, am I unable to I buy another resale account this year (such as the advertised item)?  Or is it just that I cannot combine it with the one I already own?  Thanks.



The rule is you can't combine more than once per year. You may purchase this year, and combine the next year, but will have to pay another $299 fee. Actually, there are many advantages to holding 2 accounts vs 1. See this wmowners.com thread on this topic:

http://wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=18996


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## nomadio

Great link - thank you.  I'm still a bit confused though.  If I buy 2 separate resale accounts, say within a 5 month period of time within a given year, then combine them, isn't that my one combination per year?


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## ronparise

nomadio said:


> Great link - thank you.  I'm still a bit confused though.  If I buy 2 separate resale accounts, say within a 5 month period of time within a given year, then combine them, isn't that my one combination per year?



Yes that would be your combine, but you could buy more contracts to be held in their own account to be combined later.


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