# Westgate increased fee for exchanging



## patti9600 (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi.  I am at Westage Vacation Villas this week.  We decided to attend the "maintenance" meeting for the first time in 6 years because of the new things they are adding to the resort and wanted to find out about them.  

When we went the rep pulled our sheet showing we bought at a resale and no equity is building up.  He said this means next year we will be charged a $600 fee to change weeks within Westgate instead of $130 because we bought resale and it wasn't fare to owners who bought full price!!!!!  He also said we probably wouldn't be able to exchange it through II anymore and that Westgate can take our timeshare back if they wanted to!

Has anyone ever heard of this?  We got up and left while the guy was saying "does this mean you don't want to take adavantage of the corporate options, that is your only choice".

Do you think he was trying to scare us so we would upgrade?  I can't imagine II not letting us exchange isn't that there business?

Any comments would be helpful.

Thanks,
Patti


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## timeos2 (Mar 26, 2007)

*WEASEL ALERT! Lock your doors!*

Now you know why you should NEVER attend a Westgate "update" or "maintenance" meeting. There is no bottom to the barrel they will scrape to make you feel guilty, to dream up fees/charges/problems - remember these people are fired used car salesfolk at best.  

You already know that the answer is it is all BS. They can't take away your right to use II just like they couldn't take it away from Villas owners who can still use RCI as well. Yes, it was all done to make you nervous and hopefully convince you that you need to buy or upgrade through them. Thank heavens you didn't listen or buy.  

From now on use the soon to be patented SUPER approach to your stay at any Westgate resort. What is the SUPER system? 

*S*chedule your torture meeting when you arrive for your last day
*U*nplug the phones in your unit
*P*lan to "forget" that appointment
*E*at the free stuff they offer (got to get something out of this)
*R*un away when you check out 

Use the SUPER method and a visit to Westgrate can almost be enjoyable. Especially if you laugh as you think about the frustrated calls to your now empty unit that maybe the next poor owner / guest will get to hear and enjoy. 

Not one statement they made is likely to 100% true. In fact most would have to be stretched to reach 1% of factual content. Don't worry about it.

EDITED TO ADD: If you do decide to play the game and attend one of these meetings always record it. Take a micro cassette voice recorder or use your cell phone/PDA if they have that feature. Set it on the table. Make a show of turning it on. Say you must have a record as you "tend to forget things" if you don't. It is incredible how quick the session can go and how unlikely it is that things are a "good fit" for you when you record the pitch. Works for all sales groups not just the Westgrate Weasels.


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## djs (Mar 26, 2007)

patti9600 said:


> He said this means next year we will be charged a $600 fee to change weeks within Westgate instead of $130 because we bought resale and it wasn't fare to owners who bought full price!!!!!




What I don't understand about this logic (that many companies seem to use) is that somebody must have paid full price at some point.  Unless I'm missing something, timeshares don't get built and magically appear on the re-sale market without somebody first purchasing them through the developer or the resort.

That being the case, how is anyone disadvantaged when the resort/developer already got their original price for the unit?  The only disadvantage is that they didn't find out about the resale market before their initial purchase.


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## djs (Mar 26, 2007)

Along the Weasel Alert lines, I exchanged into one of the Westgate units in Orlando a couple of years ago.  They asked, and I foolishly agreed, that I attend a quick meeting where I would get a survey on the unit and my stay.  Weasel #1 quickly told me not to worry, that he wasn't going to try and sell me anything (to his credit he did not); what he did at the end of the "survey" is say that his boss had a some follow-up questions.  

Weasel #2 was the one who's job it was to sell me a timeshare.  He went into how the payments would only be $X (I forget the exact amount, but it sounded like it would be in the range of my mortgage).  Sure the rate was high, he said, but I could easily re-finance that note when I got back to Boston.  I was a little confused as to how any bank up here in Boston would re-finance a $15,000 timeshare.  Fortunately, I didn't bite on that one.  He then resorted to the "hey, we did you a favor by allowing you to exchange into our lovely resort, and this is how you pay us back?"  That bit confused me too, as I was quite sure that II was who I arranged my exchange with.  He also tried to convince me that maybe buying an EEY unit would be in my best interest as it was cheaper and would be a nice supplement to my EOY that I own in Tahoe.  Again, I shot him down as I have a lock-down unit and have yet to exchange into a unit that wasn't larger than the one I exchanged (and I've only exchanged into the 5*/Gold resorts).

Yeah, I never should have gone; probably should have said "just give me the survey and I'll be sure to fill it out." Fortunately I knew what he was up to, and wasn't buying it.  

If Westgate doesn't want to do me any more favors by "allowing" me to book into their resorts, that's just fine.  There are plenty of other places I can go.


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## JeffW (Mar 26, 2007)

One main reason is new sales.  Take Westgate Vacation Villas - built a long time ago, probably 100% sold out. Take Hyatt Sunset Harbor in Key West, or Disney Boardwalk.  All probably 100% sold out.  If this was the ONLY resort the company had, they probably wouldn't care much about resale prices.

However, all have NEW sales ongoing.  Not at those resorts, but nearby ones.  Westgate is still building (I think either Town Center or Towers), Disney just opened Wilderness Lodge, Hyatt has Windward Pointe in KW (and other's throughout the country).  Companies will do whatever they can to keep those resale prices reasonable so it doesn't cannibalize new sales.  Both Hyatt and Disney have Right of First Refusal, that to varying degrees, keeps the resale prices high enough.  Westgate is just nasty, I'm sure more than one naive buyer bought new because of the threat of having reduced benefits of buying resale.

Another factor is image.  Although Hyatt prices are probably higher because of ROFR, many owners might be happy about that, because they know their units are worth a bit more.

Jeff


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 26, 2007)

The Westgate people tried to get us to tour their property when we stayed at Westgate Lakes a few years ago.  We avoided them completely.  We had to go down to the front desk for some reason (I think our key stopped working) and I ignored the lurking saleswoman.  She looked like she would attack at any minute.  I had no intention of going on a sales tour of Westgate.  We did that one in 1991 and will never go again.  

Vistana, Westgate, Vacation Village at Parkway, Wyndham Palms (now Mystic Dunes) and Orange Lake were the worst ever.  The one that really took the cake was Vistana and a salesman named Todd.  I will never forget him.  All of these timeshare presentations should be avoided.  They were pure torture!  

Marriott was easy, as was Summer Bay.  Have not done any others, except Disney and that was fun.


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## JeffW (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't think it's a coincidence what people generally refer to as "better" timeshares are the ones that have the more pleasant timeshare presentations.  Good companies start from the ground up.  If you have an honest and ethical company, you won't have some of the sales tactics (boardering on blatent lies) that you have with Westgate and others.

Jeff


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## Transit (Mar 26, 2007)

I stayed at westgate several timeS and always enjoyed my stay. after doing their presentation all others seem tame.


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## sfwilshire (Mar 26, 2007)

I almost have my review ready to submit of our visit last week to Westgate Vacation Villas. We told the rude lady at checkin that we absolutely weren't interested in a tour, thinking they would call us and we could change our mind later. No call. I finally called Friday to volunteer for a Saturday tour. The girl on the phone didn't sound too swift, so I went down to the checkin area and ask if we could sign up. The friendly folks there signed us up, took a $20 deposit to assure we'd show up the next day, and sent us on our way. 

We appeared the next morning, spent less than an hour with a very pleasant young lady, and left with our $100 premium plus our refunded deposit. It was probably the easiest tour we've ever been on. 

Their offer for $30,000 wasn't appealing. Nearly $1000 closing. $505 a month payments.

She came up with a resale offer of $3500 for a 1br. Pass.

She mentioned getting her manager to offer us a vacation week (can't remember the exact term she used, but one of those use a week deals) but I reminded her that I'd already told her we have more weeks on deposit than we can use. She passed us off quickly to the gifting desk.


Sheila


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## JLB (Mar 26, 2007)

Feathering Mr. Seagull's nest. 

Well, the warning signs have been there for a long time, but the followers seem to remain loyal.

http://www.kearneypublishing.com/directorytext.asp?id=1004


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## gmarine (Mar 26, 2007)

patti9600 said:


> Hi.  I am at Westage Vacation Villas this week.  We decided to attend the "maintenance" meeting for the first time in 6 years because of the new things they are adding to the resort and wanted to find out about them.
> 
> When we went the rep pulled our sheet showing we bought at a resale and no equity is building up.  He said this means next year we will be charged a $600 fee to change weeks within Westgate instead of $130 because we bought resale and it wasn't fare to owners who bought full price!!!!!  He also said we probably wouldn't be able to exchange it through II anymore and that Westgate can take our timeshare back if they wanted to!
> 
> ...



I believe the fee you are referring to is the fee that is charged to Westgate owners who wish to do an internal trade from an off season week to a peak season week. They started this a year or so ago because too many owners were doing internal trades from low season to high season. 

It has nothing to do with purchasing resale or from the developer. II exchanges remain the same. The fee is only for internal weeks from off season to peak season.


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## PA- (Mar 26, 2007)

I stayed at Westgate Town Center 2 years ago.  It was a fine timeshare, no complaints, but not spectacular enough to be worth any extra nonsense.  We were very displeased with the pools, they were basically rectangular, small, overcrowded plain pools.  But since we have a pool in our back yard, that wasn't a big deal.

The elevators were bad enough to be a pretty big nuisance.  Other than that, no real complaints, just nothing outstanding.

We had some lady at checkin tell us that if we didn't attend a maintenance meeting, we'd have to pay for any damaged/missing items (dishes or whatever).  Thanks to TUG, I knew what that maintenance meeting was all about.  I told her I'd call her back to schedule it.  Then I unplugged my phone and enjoyed our week there.  

There's too many places in Orlando that aren't run by as sleazy an outfit as Westgate, so I doubt that I'll ever re-visit any westgate resort.


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## JLB (Mar 26, 2007)

Good companies, or good anythings, start from the *top down*.   

The call I just hung up on reminds me that since we toured WVV three months ago, they have called frequently, maybe every other week.  Once you are on their list I don't know what you can do to get off it.   



JeffW said:


> Good companies start from the ground up.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 26, 2007)

Those lies were good enough to almost make me want to take the "maintenance meeting" on our next Westgate exchange.........almost.  My problem would be to contain the laughter over some of those lies. 

I think I'll just use the SUPER technique. Especially since we'll only be staying 3 or 4 out of the 7 night exchange. Scheduling that maintenance meeting for after we've left should be an easy thing to do.  

Way back in 2000 we exchanged into the only Westgate timeshare we've ever stayed at. I suspected the "maintenance meeting" was a sales presentation without the gift, just the threats. I showed up by myself without the wife, drove the salesman over the edge, told him what I thought of his sleezy tactic and left. Didn't bother my vacation one bit but did add a little entertainment to a slow afternoon.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 26, 2007)

JLB said:


> Good companies, or goood anythings, start from the top down.
> 
> The call I just hung up on reminds me that since we toured WVV three months ago, they have called frequently, maybe every other week.  Once you are on their list I don't know what you can do to get off it.



They quit calling us when I told them to put us on their DO NOT CALL list and then complained when they continued to call. You might have to send them a registered letter signed receipt inviting them to no longer harrass you at your home phone number. Either that or just find a way to make a game of it and look at it as entertainment.


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## wbtimesharer (Mar 27, 2007)

djs said:


> What I don't understand about this logic (that many companies seem to use) is that somebody must have paid full price at some point.  Unless I'm missing something, timeshares don't get built and magically appear on the re-sale market without somebody first purchasing them through the developer or the resort.
> 
> That being the case, how is anyone disadvantaged when the resort/developer already got their original price for the unit?  The only disadvantage is that they didn't find out about the resale market before their initial purchase.



The Bluegreen Points system has just started "enforcing" a rule that points bought resale aren't value the same as those bought from BlueGreen.  A lot of "Grandfathered" owners were arguing that BlueGreen is losing money due to resales.

My reply was the same as yours in that the points package purchased resale has already generated the profit for BlueGreen and now what is being enforced is 

A.  Screwing the original owner by lowering their potential resale value
B.  Greed.
c.  Screwing unwitting purchasers of BlueGreen resale points who don't know about the vague rules.

BlueGreen should enforce a standard buyback policy and state during their sales presentations that points can't be sold on the resale market.


Bill


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 27, 2007)

Yes, this is reminiscent of some timeshares in RCI points not allowing the points account to transfer to a new owner.  (PAHIO is my gripe.)

This is a value that the first owner paid a premium to get, yet their value is less with a resale because that benefit does not transfer.  It would not hurt these resorts to transfer the points over.  I would be willing to pay the RCI transfer fee of $100 or whatever.   So they really hurt their own customers during resale.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 27, 2007)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes, this is reminiscent of some timeshares in RCI points not allowing the points account to transfer to a new owner.  (PAHIO is my gripe.)
> 
> This is a value that the first owner paid a premium to get, yet their value is less with a resale because that benefit does not transfer.  It would not hurt these resorts to transfer the points over.  I would be willing to pay the RCI transfer fee of $100 or whatever.   So they really hurt their own customers during resale.




That's probably their point. It benefits them to destroy the resale market so long as they're developing new resorts. With a points based reservation system, that would include resorts built anywhere in the world that is in current sales.


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## Jollyhols (Mar 28, 2007)

I think the fee in the initial post might be the so-called upgrade fee plus internal exchange fee.

I own a Westgate week 44 (which we stupidly change from a June week to avoid exchange fees when all weeks were supposed to be the same).

When I asked to exchange into a March week I was told I could have a unit for a $500 upgrade fee (plus the normal exchange fee) as my week was now a 'value' week.  This only came into effect about a year ago I believe.

So possibly the rep could have twisted the facts a bit.

A couple of years back we attended a 'maintenance' meeting and the rep told us (they write it down on paper as if to reinforce what they are saying) the current value of our timeshare - US $64,000-odd.  I actually found that quite amusing,.


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## JLB (Mar 28, 2007)

Goes to show you how little things have changed over the years.   

We started this little adventure almost 20 years ago with an EOY Week 23, the next year we went down and bought the other EOY Week 23, to make it EY.  That was based on the say-so of those we took to be the experts back then, the only people you could get _information_ from, those feathering their nest with your money, CFI and the exchange companies.

Then, like lemmings following the lemmings in front of us, we bought a 43 and a 44.

They all sucked and it took us several years to figure that out, until the time when we could actually see what they were seeing and compare with others, so we knew we had been lied to.

When I became educated, I called CFI and asked about swapping for some peak summer weeks.  One Sunday night a pushy lady with a strong NE accent called at 9:00 PM.  Her offer was to take all our weeks back and _give _us a 3-bedroom lock-off at WLakes,  All we had to to is deed our three weeks back to CFI and send them $25000!

Fortunately, through my stumbling and bumbling I had befriended Mr. Seagull's administrative assistant, a very nice person.  I called her Monday morning and five minutes later CFI's mortgage manager called.  We wound up swapping our 44/45 for a 28/29, for recording costs, like $20.

They sucked too, since Mr. Seagull had POd RCI in the meantime.  

And there's a bunch of other stuff. 

When it is obvious some of us have a bad taste in our mouths, there is a reason.



Jollyhols said:


> I own a Westgate week 44 (which we stupidly change from a June week to avoid exchange fees when all weeks were supposed to be the same).


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## potchak (Mar 28, 2007)

*Do what I do...*



dougp26364 said:


> Either that or just find a way to make a game of it and look at it as entertainment.



Whenever we get soliciting phone calls, I tell them how great their product sounds and ask if I can pay for it with food stamps (with very heavy southern accent). I can count the seconds on 1 hand how long it took to hear the click.


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## merc (Mar 28, 2007)

I have attended many presentations, and there is nothing especially different about Westgate.  My "worst" experience ever was at a Sheraton, but regardless of which company you are dealing with, these aren't major life events no matter how hard they pressure you, unless you have no experience of pure commission sales environments.

If you are unfamiliar with David Mamet's play Glengarry Glenn Ross, you can perhaps rent the movie (for which he wrote the screenplay as well).  This script is renowned for capturing the pure commission sales process (Mamet himself worked as an office manager in a real estate office.)  The "boiler room" approach to sales is not the invention of any one industry or company.  Watching this film would help inform the minds and thicken the skins of many an inexperienced customer.


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## Jollyhols (Mar 29, 2007)

merc said:


> these aren't major life events no matter how hard they pressure you, unless you have no experience of pure commission sales environments.




Personally, in my case, I think it could be called a 'major life event' - or at least a major financial life event.  Apart from my home, I think it is the most expensive item I have ever bought.  And you are stuck with the ongoing fees for evermore unless you sell at a great loss.  All because of getting carried away in a moment of weakness.


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## merc (Mar 29, 2007)

My comment was meant in regard to the experience of finding presentations "hard' or "high pressure," not about the consequences of making a purchase.   Informed folks confronted with such a sales environment simply won't respond at an emotional level to what is going on, remaining detached and in control, whereas those who do not know what is going on are the sought after prey, and come away feeling upset or having bought something.  

People aren't convinced to buy because they are "weak" but simply because they are not familiar with the sales technique, and are relatively innocent and trusting about people.  Hence my suggestion to get an inside look via Mamet's fictional representation of his own experiences so one will know what the sales organization is up to.  

Or more simply just always remember the punch line to the old joke, "How can you tell when a salesman is lying?"  Perhaps this is too cynical, but pure commission sales is a pressurized life that can easily overcome the salesperson's own personal sense of the right and wrong about what comes out of his or her mouth.  They are not your friends, and they don't have a great deal for total strangers.  How few are the salespersons who can afford to tell the whole truth?


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## Fletcher921 (Mar 29, 2007)

potchak said:


> Whenever we get soliciting phone calls, I tell them how great their product sounds and ask if I can pay for it with food stamps (with very heavy southern accent). I can count the seconds on 1 hand how long it took to hear the click.



Answering the phone by saying "Bueno" works well for us.  People that know you get used to it and know it's you.  Solicitors that don't know you think they have reached a spanish speaking home and since a LOT of them don.t speak spanish you hear a click rather quickly.

Maybe this only works in San Diego...


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## sfwilshire (Mar 29, 2007)

Fletcher921 said:


> Answering the phone by saying "Bueno" works well for us.  People that know you get used to it and know it's you.  Solicitors that don't know you think they have reached a spanish speaking home and since a LOT of them don.t speak spanish you hear a click rather quickly.




Maybe a less "popular" language would work better. German? Dutch? French?

Sheila


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## drolly (Mar 29, 2007)

If I may ask, my wife and I will be at Westgate Vacation Villas this Sat.  Wondering what the incentive is for taking the tour?  I've been reading more and more that places seem to be giving cash instead of tix these days....


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## sfwilshire (Mar 29, 2007)

drolly said:


> If I may ask, my wife and I will be at Westgate Vacation Villas this Sat.  Wondering what the incentive is for taking the tour?  I've been reading more and more that places seem to be giving cash instead of tix these days....



They offered tickets first, but I responded that we had all of our tickets. The next offer was for $100. I thought they might call us and up the anti, but they never did.

Sheila


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