# WorldMark Basics Q



## JimIg23 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have been looking at purchasing some WM credits (12-14k) in addition to a Marriott week. The most appealing part of WM is the city properties.   Even with reading a lot of threads, it seems a bit complicated.  Can anyone help me with the following Qs:

1) I have read that some WM (and WM- affiliate property owned by FF) are traded in RCI and some are II.  Is there a list of some kind where I can see which properties trade on II and which trade on RCI?

2) If you own WM, can you reserve any WM week or WM affiliate week in a separate reservation system outside of II/RCI?  And is it hard or easy to reserve summer weeks at city locations such as SF?

3) Right now a 2 bedrooms seems to be 12k max.  Will that go up in the years to come?

Thank you!


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## RichM (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm not an exchange expert, but as far as item #1 is concerned, some WM properties are traded with II but since Cendant (now split off as Wyndham) took over Trendwest making RCI a sister company, the newer resorts are only traded through RCI.  As a WM owner, however, you can join and have access to both RCI and II, at your discretion, regardless of which properties trade (or don't trade) with either exchange company.



JimIg23 said:


> 3) Right now a 2 bedrooms seems to be 12k max.  Will that go up in the years to come?



The WM bylaws have a "Constant total" clause whereby the annual credits allocated to a unit at the time it enters the system cannot change.  Seasonal adjustments/shifts can be made, but in the end the total number of credits required to book that unit for each of it's allocated weeks of the year must remain constant.  Basically, they move the off-season weeks around a bit but the 10K-12K for a 2BR remains the same.

However, newer units coming into the system could be any number of credits.  There has been a slight upward trend in unit credit values of late.  Wyndham has blamed it on higher construction costs even though a number of owners believe the retail price per credit should be raised to offset these costs, not allocating more credits.  

Also, some of the more recent resorts that have come online are slight departures from traditional WM resorts which is a factor.  The urban locations have had much higher credits than the typical WM unit.  A typical WM resort in red season is 7K/8K/10K credits for studio/1BR/2BR (I've skipped the 3BR and above sizes for sake of this comparison).  Seattle is  9K/12K/14K, San Francisco is 9K/12K/NA and San Diego is the highest at 12K/15K/NA, although credit values for the new Anaheim location have not yet been disclosed.  Plus, there have been a couple new "flagship" resorts added in Las Vegas and Indio with bigger, better pools and rec. areas, etc. with slightly elevated credit values of 7K/9K/11K.

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## kewanee (Mar 20, 2007)

JimIg23 said:


> 2) If you own WM, can you reserve any WM week or WM affiliate week in a separate reservation system outside of II/RCI?  And is it hard or easy to reserve summer weeks at city locations such as SF?
> 
> 3) Right now a 2 bedrooms seems to be 12k max.  Will that go up in the years to come?
> 
> Thank you!



2)  WM has its own online reservation system for when you are booking WM units.  You can log in and search inventory and book yourself.   You can
generally book 13 months in advance (some of the FF properties are less) and it should be pretty easy to book summer weeks in SF - as long as you do it at that 13 month window and are booking at least 7 days.  If you are wanting a prime week (such as Thanksgiving or Christmas) you will need to book it immediately at the 13 month window.  You can also add on a front-end 'cheap' reservation to book earlier - meaning I could call and book 4 days at Angels Camp and then 1 week in SF at Christmas.  I might waste the 4 days, but it would enable me to book my Christmas week at 13 months, 4 days and maybe beat out someone else.


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## winger (Mar 20, 2007)

kewanee said:


> 2)  ...  If you are wanting a prime week (such as Thanksgiving or Christmas) ....  You can also add on a front-end 'cheap' reservation to book earlier - meaning I could call and book 4 days at Angels Camp and then 1 week in SF at Christmas.  I might waste the 4 days, but it would enable me to book my Christmas week at 13 months, 4 days and maybe beat out someone else.


I do not understand the use of the extra 4 days up front.  would you mind elaborating?


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## RichM (Mar 20, 2007)

You can only book up to 13 months out. That means that your check-in date cannot be more than 13 months from the day you make the reservation.  The length of the reservation you make is only limited by the number of credits you own and you can do a "group booking" by stringing together contiguous days at multiple resorts (you're responsible for a housekeeping charge per stay at each resort).  You must still book a minimum of 7 nights at any red season resort, so, what people do to snag prime weeks ahead of the 13 month point is they book X days in an off-season studio followed by the 7 (or more) nights at their actual, desired destination.  You cannot cancel the lead-in days without canceling the entire reservation, so many people just throwaway the lead-in days as a cost of getting the prime week.


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## cotraveller (Mar 20, 2007)

winger said:


> I do not understand the use of the extra 4 days up front.  would you mind elaborating?



It's usually referred to as throwaway days.  For example, if you want a reservation starting on December 22, 2007, which is the Saturday before Christmas, the normal booking window opened 13 months before that on December 22, 2006.  If you wait until that date to book that week at one of the prime locations you will probably find that nothing is available.

WorldMark lets you book consecutive stays at multiple units and/or resorts. Sticking with the 4 days and the example I created,  what can be done to obtain that reservation is to book 4 days in a less expensive unit or resort starting on December 18, and tie it to a week in the desired unit starting December 22.

For example, if the first 4 days were in a studio and the week was in a 2 bedroom penthouse, you would have the studio for the 4 nights of Dec 18-Dec 21 at the lower studio rate and the penthouse for 7 nights starting on Dec 22.  You show up at the resort on Dec 22 and move right into the penthouse.  The studio sits empty for the 4 nights you had it reserved.

The two units that you book do not have top be at the same resort.  If you make a reservation like that during a non-holiday period, depending on the time of year you might be able to book the studio in a blue season resort to go with the full week at a red season resort.

It's a form of credit inflation imposed on the popular weeks by owners with enough credits that they don't mind throwing some away.  If you want those prime weeks you have to pay more for them.  It's not a bad way to do things, at least you know you have a good shot at getting the week you want if you are willing to pay the price.

Edited to add - I see I was slow and Rich posted while I was typing.  I think we said similar things, although I was a lot wordier.  Not necessarily clearer, quality and quanity may or may not be related.  Hopefully between our two posts the idea came across.


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## FLYNZ4 (Mar 20, 2007)

We are probably one of the larger (credit wise) WM owners.   We also vacation on many of the holidays.  We generally book several vacations each month... and are quite likely among the absolute highest users of WM.   We typically have 40 - 50 reservations booked at any given time.   We generally book the most popular destinations.

Despite all of that... we have NEVER booked any throw away days.  That is not to say that we never will... but I suspect that the need to do so is VERY rare.   There is generally plenty of inventory at 13 months.

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Mar 20, 2007)

FLYNZ4 said:


> ... but I suspect that the need to do so is VERY rare.   There is generally plenty of inventory at 13 months.
> 
> /Jim



Jim - I agree with that for the most part.  The main exceptions I have seen are the Hawaii resorts.  Right now, with the booking window at 4/20/2008, you would have to add a day or two if you wanted Valley Isle in Maui.  Admitedly that is one of the smaller resorts in the WorldMark family.  Hawaii is more difficult in the summer.

I have heard (that makes it rumor, not fact) that Cabo over spring break and Whistler over Christmas/New Years can also be tough to book without throwaway days.


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## RichM (Mar 20, 2007)

While there is sufficient inventory at Seaside to get a summer unit at 13 months out, if you want to book an OF (Ocean Front) unit, you must use throwaway days as the inventory disappears prior to the 13 month window.  We had to use a few throwaways in a Palm Springs studio in August to get an OF unit in Seaside.  

I had been watching for a good number of weeks leading up to when we wanted to go and the inventory in the OF units starting with a Friday/Saturday check-in would consistently disappear 2-4 days prior to the start of the 13 month window.  Heck - there's at least one 3BR OF at Seaside already booked for Jun 4-13, 2008 right now and that's almost 15 months out.

Also, weeks including July 4th at the popular summer resorts tend to get booked ahead of the 13 month window.

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## JimIg23 (Mar 20, 2007)

Thank you.  One last question, let's say I would get 12-14k point to cover a 2bedroom reservation every year.  Is there anything else (special deals that require smaller amount of points) during the year I would need to think about before I buy?


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## cotraveller (Mar 20, 2007)

JimIg23 said:


> Thank you.  One last question, let's say I would get 12-14k point to cover a 2bedroom reservation every year.  Is there anything else (special deals that require smaller amount of points) during the year I would need to think about before I buy?



There are always deals.  They might be 1 day sitting there that you would like to use.  You might see another week that you would like to use.  There might be . . .

If you have 12-14k credits you will find that you would like to have 22-24k.
If you have 22-24k credits you will find that you would like to have 32-34k.
If you have 32-34k credits you will find that you would like to have 42-44k.
If you have . . .  

We never seem to have all the credits we would like to use.

That was a lot of help wasn't it?


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## Tokapeba (Mar 20, 2007)

*Why not rent credits?*

You can rent credits from other owners for about the same as maintenance fees. If you want more credits all you have to do is go to eBay they sell them every day. They are more expensive on eBay than at other places, but why own the membership when you can rent the credits? You do need to have a membership to rent credits.

Andy.


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## skim118 (Mar 20, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> I have heard (that makes it rumor, not fact) that Cabo over spring break and Whistler over Christmas/New Years can also be tough to book without throwaway days.



It is certainly not a rumor;  We were trying to get the 2-bed room penthouse for spring-break 2008(easter wk) in Cabo & these units were consistently getting snapped up 1 week before the actual booking date(13 months out) throughout March 2008.

Since we really wanted the unit we had to book a throwaway week at Surfside(3000 points) in front of the Cabo week.


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## HudsHut (Mar 20, 2007)

1) Because there is no "home resort" concept within WM, it does not matter to you as an Owner whether a resort trades through RCI, II, or both.

As Rich stated, you, as an Owner, may elect to join RCI, II, both, neither or any of the various other exchange companies.

2) San Francisco is generally easy to reserve. Perhaps a holiday week might be difficult. I just checked inventory, and there is still quite a bit available for this summer. Even the 4th of July is available!

3) Within 14 days of check-in, you can reserve a WM unit for a cash price instead of using credits. WorldMark calls this Bonus Time.

An "instant exchange" (within 45 days of check-in) with RCI costs 4,000 WM credits, no matter what size unit you reserve.

A "flexchange" (within 59 days of check-in) with II costs 4,000 WM credits, no matter what size unit you reserve.

Best regards,
Maria


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## Ahzroe (Mar 21, 2007)

Tokapeba said:


> You can rent credits from other owners for about the same as maintenance fees. If you want more credits all you have to do is go to eBay they sell them every day. They are more expensive on eBay than at other places, but why own the membership when you can rent the credits? You do need to have a membership to rent credits.
> 
> Andy.



Andy,

I own no WM credits.  I do not have a WM account.  Would it be possible for me to rent credits, have them added to my II account and complete an exchange?  Or are rented credits only used for a WM Reservation?

Bill


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## cotraveller (Mar 21, 2007)

Ahzroe said:


> Andy,
> 
> I own no WM credits.  I do not have a WM account.  Would it be possible for me to rent credits, have them added to my II account and complete an exchange?  Or are rented credits only used for a WM Reservation?
> 
> Bill



You need to be a WorldMark owner to rent and use WorldMark credits.


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## ladycody (Mar 21, 2007)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by cotraveller
> > I have heard (that makes it rumor, not fact) that Cabo over spring break and Whistler over Christmas/New Years can also be tough to book without throwaway days.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that Skim was trying to book a PH unit...and there are only 4 of them and they're _extremely_ popular.  I watched the PH units for 6 weeks (I was looking for time mid january thru march of 08) before finding a date that allowed me to book 2 of them without using any throwaway days.  As of right now there is still some availability in 1br deluxes in the first week of April and I'm guessing that, at 13 months out, you would have a good chance of being able to book a standard 2br without needing throwaway days.  Not saying you could for sure...but you'd have a decent chance I think.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 22, 2007)

Has anyone used wmcredits.com to buy?


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## spatenfloot (Mar 22, 2007)

Lots of people including myself have used www.redseason.com and were happy with it.


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## kewanee (Mar 22, 2007)

JimIg23 said:


> Thank you.  One last question, let's say I would get 12-14k point to cover a 2bedroom reservation every year.  Is there anything else (special deals that require smaller amount of points) during the year I would need to think about before I buy?



You can look on the website - www.worldmarktheclub.com and click on
'Inventory Specials', then scroll about half way down the page.  This is
basically un-used inventory that you can 'buy' time at (I think it is currently
4.4 cents per credit) and not use any of your credits.  It also includes
the housekeeping fee, but any local tax would still be added on.


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## cyndiegran (Mar 24, 2007)

*I like wmcredits.com*

We bought our credits on ebay from Henri at wmcredits.com.
He was fast, efficient, and honest. I could not be more positive about our buying experience. 

By the way, I  bought the smallest membership possible (6000) and then rent all the credits I want. When I do then numbers, I find it is the least expensive way to go. 

We are retired and very flexible in all seasons and find WorldMark ideal for our needs.

Cyndie


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## roadsister (Mar 24, 2007)

cyndiegran said:


> We bought our credits on ebay from Henri at wmcredits.com.
> He was fast, efficient, and honest. I could not be more positive about our buying experience.
> 
> By the way, I  bought the smallest membership possible (6000) and then rent all the credits I want. When I do then numbers, I find it is the least expensive way to go.
> ...



Hi,
Just for clarification, the smallest membership is 5,000 credits.


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## mtngal (Apr 1, 2007)

Right the smallest membership allowed by WM rules is 5,000 credits.  The smallest membership sold by the developer is 6,000 points.  You occasionally find 5,000 point memberships for sale, but its not a usual thing.


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## roadsister (Apr 1, 2007)

I believe if you press the developer you CAN purchase a 5,000 point one.


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## mshatty (Apr 1, 2007)

*Buy 15,000 credits*

If you are going to purchase more than 12,500 WM credits, go ahead go to 15,000 credits.  The MF, as of June 1, 2007, will be the same for 12,501 to 15,000 credits.


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 8, 2007)

mshatty said:


> If you are going to purchase more than 12,500 WM credits, go ahead go to 15,000 credits.  The MF, as of June 1, 2007, will be the same for 12,501 to 15,000 credits.


Can you really buy in increments of less than 1000?   I personally have never seen it... but that does not mean that it cannot be done.

/Jim


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 8, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> Jim - I agree with that for the most part.  The main exceptions I have seen are the Hawaii resorts.  Right now, with the booking window at 4/20/2008, you would have to add a day or two if you wanted Valley Isle in Maui.  Admitedly that is one of the smaller resorts in the WorldMark family.  Hawaii is more difficult in the summer.
> 
> I have heard (that makes it rumor, not fact) that Cabo over spring break and Whistler over Christmas/New Years can also be tough to book without throwaway days.



Fred,

I agree with your assesment for a few hard to book properties during particularly hard to book weeks.   I believe that Hawaii is probably among the hardest to book.

If needed.... I would book throw away days under... but I would first try to group the reservations and book some inventory that someone could actually use.    I think that is one of the great things that makes WM quite flexible.

To date, I have not booked any throw aways.   I am going to try my hardest to maintain that as long as possible.

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Apr 9, 2007)

FLYNZ4 said:


> Fred,
> 
> ... but I would first try to group the reservations and book some inventory that someone could actually use.    I think that is one of the great things that makes WM quite flexible.
> 
> /Jim



You are taking advantage of something in the way the system is set up that I don't agree with.  In my mind the grouped reservation is a single reservation and should only be allowed to be used by one party.  It should not be possible to split it into separate parts for use by separate people.

It is a single grouped reservation, not a group of single reservations.  I see that as an important distinction.  Unfortunately the current reservation system prints out separate confirmations for the various parts rather than one confirmation for the total group.


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 12, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> You are taking advantage of something in the way the system is set up that I don't agree with.  In my mind the grouped reservation is a single reservation and should only be allowed to be used by one party.  It should not be possible to split it into separate parts for use by separate people.
> 
> It is a single grouped reservation, not a group of single reservations.  I see that as an important distinction.  Unfortunately the current reservation system prints out separate confirmations for the various parts rather than one confirmation for the total group.


Valid point... and it is a good theoretical discussion.   I can see both sides to the argument.

I had a situation like this a few weeks ago that I did use to my advantage.    I had a "white season" weekend reservation booked at Depoe Bay. Subsequently, my daughter wanted to take a trip to Las Vegas (which is 100% red season) and asked if I could book her a unit.   I added-on 4 days at LV to my prexisting "3 weekend days" to make a 7 day grouped reservation.

So... I booked 7 total days... 3 white, 4 red for my immediate family using my vacation credits.  My wife, daughter and I used 3 of the days at Depoe Bay, but only our daughter used the 2nd half of the reservation.   Do you consider this wrong?

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Apr 12, 2007)

FLYNZ4 said:


> Valid point... and it is a good theoretical discussion.   I can see both sides to the argument.
> 
> I had a situation like this a few weeks ago that I did use to my advantage.    I had a "white season" weekend reservation booked at Depoe Bay. Subsequently, my daughter wanted to take a trip to Las Vegas (which is 100% red season) and asked if I could book her a unit.   I added-on 4 days at LV to my prexisting "3 weekend days" to make a 7 day grouped reservation.
> 
> ...



Jim, 

For the case you listed, the grouped reservation was probably not necessary since you could have booked each part separately and independently.  White season has no restrictions and Las Vegas is normally easy to book for mid week stays at 90 days.   But in principle, no, I do not think that it should be allowed.

Here’s a better example.  You’d like a weekend reservation in the summer at Depoe Bay, a short drive for you.  We’d like a Sunday through Thursday reservation at Estes Park, a short drive for us.  Either reservation, booked separately, would require waiting until 90 days before the check in.  Either would be difficult to get.  If booked today, that would mean a reservation starting on July 11.  Both Depoe Bay and Estes Park are already booked for that week.

Knowing it was going to be difficult to book, we get together and at 13 months before the desired week one of us books a grouped reservation.  Friday and Saturday at Depoe Bay, Sunday through Thursday at Estes Park.  The computer prints out two separate confirmations, one for each part of the reservation.  Your name goes on the Depoe Bay confirmation, mine goes on the Estes Park confirmation.  We transfer credits between our accounts for the respective parts and everybody is happy.

Well, not quite everybody is happy.  There is that person who wanted to book a weekend at Depoe Bay and since we have already booked it, it isn’t available at 90 days for him.  It was going to be a tough reservation to get anyway and we made it more difficult for him.  There is also the person who wanted those 5 days at Estes Park and they aren’t available at 90 days either.  Then there is the person who wanted to book a full week at Depoe Bay and can’t because the weekend of the week he wanted is gone, booked into our grouped reservation.  And another person who wanted a full week at Estes Park and can’t get it because I have 5 of the days of the week he wanted.  That makes at least 4 other people are unhappy because of what we did, and several others are complaining that they can never get the reservation they want.  So the only people that are happy are us.

If grouped reservations could not be shared it might make it easier for the smaller account holders to get some of those prime reservations.  I might be willing to book a shared reservation like the one I outlined above since it was not costing me anything beyond the credit value of the 5 days that I spend in the unit.  But if I had to throw away two days to get that midweek reservation I wanted there is no way I would do that.  We only own 10,000 credits, they are too valuable to me to throw away.  It would be like burning money.  I’ll let someone else have those 5 days.

The only reason this happens is because the computer reservation system is not capable of printing out a single confirmation for both resorts in the grouped reservation.  There is nothing in the guidelines that says it can be done.  All references are to a grouped reservation – note the singular designation.  Since two separate confirmations are printed it became easy for someone to put different names on the two parts.  Once the precedent has been established it is difficult to change.


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 12, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> For the case you listed, the grouped reservation was probably not necessary since you could have booked each part separately and independently.  White season has no restrictions and Las Vegas is normally easy to book for mid week stays at 90 days.   But in principle, no, I do not think that it should be allowed.


Fred,

I don't agree on the fact that booking the two segments independently is good advice.   Plane tickets are cheaper with lead time, as well as scheduling vacation time.   Personally, I would not want to wait till the 90 day point and roll the dice... even if it is Las Vegas.  

So... in this case... one family (Father/Mother/Daughter) are using part of the reservation... and Daughter is using the remainder.   It seems to me that this is fairly clean.    Clearly my daughter's name could have been on the entire reservation... and clearly she could have invited guests (us) to join her at Depoe Bay.

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Apr 12, 2007)

Jim,

Any rule will have cases that adversly affect someone.  You want to make it ok for immediate family members to share reservations?  Ok, I'll go along with that.

How about the other example I used?  You get your weekend in Depoe Bay, I get my 5 days in Estes Park.  No long range travel planning for airlines or such is required.  You're close to Depoe Bay, a 2 or 3 hour drive at the most, and it's about 1-1/2 hour from my house to the Estes Park resort.  The only risk in waiting until the 90 day point is that we may not get the reservations.

Should we be allowed to make a reservation 13 months in advance and split it between us to circumvent the 90 day rule?  We're not family and we've never met in person, only through the forums.  But we are both great guys so I guess we can allow it.


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 12, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> If grouped reservations could not be shared it might make it easier for the smaller account holders to get some of those prime reservations.


Fred,

I have been thinking about your comment today... and I actually think that the primary beneficiary of "multiple users of grouped reservations" is the small credit owner... not the large credit owner.   Let me explain:

For illustrative purposes... I will use you as the small credit owner... and I will use Perry as the large credit owner.

First of all... it is a fact that some people book throw away days in front of popular weeks.   Perry has been a leading advocate that this is something that you can do with WM.   Perry has a billion credits... so he doesn't mind throwing away some points letting a room sit empty prior to his prized holiday week.   However... as you said... as a small credit owner, that is not a luxury that you have (or choose to exercise).   Essentially... this means that you (the small credit owner) are potentially locked out of using WM at some of the most popular times.

Secondly... when someone books throw away days, we end up with inventory that is essentially going unused.   There are probably people out there who would love to use those throw away days that Perry is not using.   Hence... owners loose out by not getting full use of the properties that we own.   Clearly it is Perry's right to book throw away days since he is paying for them... but it would be a better solution if somehow those rooms could be used by other owners.

If WM was to allow (and it does) "shared group reservations"... then you have reasonable access to inventory... while simultaneously minimizing wasted inventory.    You and I can can "meet on the web" (because we are two cool guys)... and agree how we attain our mutual goals.   maybe I book my desired weekend reservation... and group it with your your prize holiday week... letting you get in line ahead of the billion credit owner who doesn't mind booking throw away days.

It seems to me that this solution is better than
   a) locking you out.. and
   b) ending up with empty (but booked) units.

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Apr 12, 2007)

FLYNZ4 said:


> Fred,
> 
> For illustrative purposes... I will use you as the small credit owner... and I will use Perry as the large credit owner.
> 
> /Jim



Jim,

I'll have a reply for you eventually, but right now I'm ROTFLMAO.  In my wildest dreams I couldn't imagine a situation where Perry and I would ever be used together to illustrate a point.  Good one.


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## FLYNZ4 (Apr 12, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'll have a reply for you eventually, but right now I'm ROTFLMAO.  In my wildest dreams I couldn't imagine a situation where Perry and I would ever be used together to illustrate a point.  Good one.


Glad to help make your day 

I will acknowledge that there are counter examples which could probably prove the opposite results as well.    I guess the real point is that I do not think this is cut and dry.   There are both benefits and liabilities to this practice.

In general... I would not want to do anything that restricted an owners use of credits.   My opinion is it is best to leave things as they stand.

/Jim


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## cotraveller (Apr 13, 2007)

FLYNZ4 said:


> Glad to help make your day
> 
> I will acknowledge that there are counter examples which could probably prove the opposite results as well.    I guess the real point is that I do not think this is cut and dry.   There are both benefits and liabilities to this practice.
> 
> ...



Jim,

I’m not particularly concerned about the billion credit owners.  If they want to throw away credits by booking throwaway days, they are their credits to do with what they want.  I would suggest that if people are going to throw away reservations they throw them at other owners.  Post it on the WM rental board – “_here’s a reservation I booked as a throw away.  It’s yours for the asking. Since I was going to throw away those days anyway someone might as well use them.  No cost, no obligation, first come, first served_”.  As the instructor at the owner’s ed class I attended recently said, you will make a lot of friends by giving away reservations.

Empty but booked units are not a problem.  Typically those throw away days are booked for units that would sit empty anyway so the owners are not losing any access.  That means that credits are used which a lot of people say it the way it should be, but there is no cost involved for housekeeping, etc.  It could potentially cut into Inventory Specials and Bonus Time at a few resorts.  That is a different issue.  Some say that Bonus Time is bad, it is better when units are booked with credits.  Do throw away days help move things in that direction?  But then the next complaint you hear is that Bonus Time is much harder to find than it used to be.

The whole issue of shared reservations is something that currently is not a big deal, not many do it.  It’s related to owner education.  Owner education is good, the more the owners know and make use of to enjoy their ownership, the less complaints they have.  WorldMark has become a very large system.  They do offer owner ed classes, but those cover primarily the basics. Within the WorldMark owner’s world, there is a relatively small group of people who know about those little idiosyncrasies that are available to maximize your use of your ownership.  Those people are usually open and willing to share and you can pick up a lot of those tidbits on forums such as this.  I post ideas on my site from time to time, and will probably be getting more into the owner education area in the future.  I think I do pretty well with my little 10K account.  

But as with all “loopholes”, and that is what I consider shared reservations, it is subject to misuse and abuse. How about this scenario?

Why don’t we set up the WorldMark Reservation Matching Service?  We register the domain name wmrms.com (I didn’t check to see if it’s available), sign up with a host server company, get some free software, forum software might work, and go in business.  Our total investment is less than $100 for a year.

Anyone can browse the site, but you need to register to post anything.  Registration is free.  It is also private, contact info is not provided to other members.  Once registered you can post information defining the reservation you want.   You want 3 weekend days next summer?  Post that on the site.  If you are flexible about the location, date, unit size, etc., post that also.  Someone else posts that they want 4 mid-week days.  If you see something that fits with what you want you contact the person who posted the info.

That’s where we come in.  We provide the contact through our site for a small fee.  It takes a while to catch on, but pretty soon someone says “_Hey, I booked this great reservation through wmrms.com.  I got the weekend at Marina Dunes over the 4th of July._”  The word spreads and soon if you want a good reservation you have to come through our site since we match many owners together and all those prime reservations disappear at or before the 13 month window.  Throw away days disappear since there is always be someone who wants the time period before the week you want.  Even those billion credit owners would have to use our service.  Owners who do not use our service would find that the only reservations they can get are off season at Grand Lake or Galena.  

We’re not breaking any rules since we do no direct dealing with credits or reservations or anything else.  We wouldn’t even have to be WorldMark owners.  We just provide a matching service.  The small fee we collect on each one of those matches adds up to a tidy income.

That’s a pretty wild scenario and I don’t think it could work to the extent I described it.  But if someone did actually start this or a similar type of service it might prompt changes in the way reservations are handled.  Sharing reservations is something the guidelines are currently mute about.  They do not specifically either allow or prohibit sharing.  That leads to ambiguity and the opening for opportunists to take advantage of the system in ways we probably haven’t even thought of yet.  So change the guidelines, make it clear one way or the other.  I’d vote for a rewrite the guidelines to say one reservation, one name on that reservation.  No sharing of reservations.  I see too many opportunities for misuse otherwise.   Maybe some compromises would work such as allowing sharing with family or a small number of individuals.  Borrow on the cell phone concept of “my faves” or something similar.  There would be some protests and complaints but overall I think it would be an improvement.


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## Bill4728 (Apr 13, 2007)

Couldn't these shared reservations be used as rentals too?

I'f you wanted to make a hard to get reservation, couldn't you make your weekend reservation and your midweek reservation then turn around and rent the mid week reservation to someone?  

The small credit owner will really be out in the cold then.


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## mshatty (Apr 13, 2007)

I don't really see the problem with the split reservation being used by two different people.  The rules allow the grouped reservation because of the requirement to have at least a 7 day reservation prior to 90 days to check in.  Why is there a difference between letting me use part of a grouped reservation and a family member?  The only difference that I see is the "trust" issue of letting someone use the reservation that you may not know.

There's no difference between letting someone else using a part of a group reservation and someone else using the "throw away" days that an owner might book to snag a 13 month reservation.

Finally, how many or what percentage of WM owners are sophisticated enough to utilize this technique, let alone use it?  I would venture that that number of owners is minuscule.  This is appears to be more of a theoretical problem than a real one.


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## cotraveller (Apr 13, 2007)

Mike,

I see a big difference between someone using throw away days to get a reservation and splitting a reservation among multiple people.  With throw away days an owner is using his credits to obtain a reservation for his use.  No one else is involved.

When an owner books a reservation with the intention of splitting off part of it for use by another person for whatever reason, he is taking advantage of a quirk in the reservation system that is not written into the guidelines. The guidelines refer to an owner making a reservation, which may be split among multiple resorts.  One owner, one reservation, multiple resorts.  Nowhere in the guidelines does it say that the reservation may be split among multiple owners.  That would be multiple owners, multiple reservations, multiple resorts.  It may be allowed within the current implementation of the guidelines but I do not believe it is within the intent of the grouped reservation.

As for your last point, I’d say you are correct.  At the moment it is miniscule and more of a theoretical problem than a real one.  As has happened on occasion in the past, miniscule problems can turn into significant ones and changes have to be made to handle them.  I think it’s best to try to anticipate potential problems and prevent them from happening.  And if that is not successful and theory becomes fact, these discussions of theoretical problems can provide good background material for implementing solutions.


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## cruisin (Apr 13, 2007)

For  a 6000 credit owner, I think a split reservation would be wonderful. Certainly cant book many new resorts for 7 days in 2 bedrooms during  red without banking a year behind taking this years and borrowing ahead. Could not even stay every other year in a nicer new resort, one could only go 2 out of every 5 years for a 15,000 credit 2BR. At least this way you could get a smaller stay each year and enjoy worldmark the club. . As long as this is allowed, the small account user should definitely use this to maximize their precious credits! Essentially  isn't owner 1 renting out part of their reservation to owner 2. Aren't we are allowed to rent out units?


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## mshatty (Apr 13, 2007)

cotraveller said:


> Mike,
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


 
Fred,

I certainly respect your better understanding of WM rules than I have. Having not been a WM owner for very long, is there documentation that clarifies or discusses the intent of the rules?

This issue raises a lot of questions to me. 

I wonder where the line should be drawn? Is it only where two owners join together and one owner books all of the group reservation and puts the other owner on as a guest? The second owner pays the first owner with credits?

Can an owner rent out part of his group reservation that he doesn't want to use or suddenly can't use to another WM owner? Should an owner be allowed to split his group reservation with family? friends who are WM owners? 3rd parties who pay the WM owner?

Is the distinction only of the WM owners' intent at the beginning of the reservation booking? How would that intent be quantified and to whom?

Is it reasonable to limit these types of transactions if there is no additional cost to WM? WM allows owners to book a reservation and rent it. I see WM owners offer their booked reservations (less than 7 days) for cash or WM credits.

To me, the less restrictions on owner's use of WM credits, the better it is for all owners in the long run. WM owners who thoroughly understand the rules will always have an advantage over those who don't. Why should they be penalized for their effort to learn the rules?

In the end, I know if I wanted to use this booking technique with another owner, I certainly would not publicize it to the world because some may view it as unfair. I have learned that it's not always wise to let everyone know everything you do and how you do it.:ignore:


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## cotraveller (Apr 13, 2007)

mshatty said:


> Fred,
> 
> To me, the less restrictions on owner's use of WM credits, the better it is for all owners in the long run. WM owners who thoroughly understand the rules will always have an advantage over those who don't. Why should they be penalized for their effort to learn the rules?
> 
> In the end, I know if I wanted to use this booking technique with another owner, I certainly would not publicize it to the world because some may view it as unfair. I have learned that it's not always wise to let everyone know everything you do and how you do it.:ignore:



And there you have an interesting dilemma.  If you know a relatively obscure way to get something done and someone asks a question related to that idea, do you share your information and lose some of the advantage you might have in getting a reservation?  Or do you keep quiet and retain your advantage?

I'd favor openness and sharing of information, as I think most of those who participate in the forums would.  That's why you see entire topics related to the ins and outs of the things you can and cannot do.

Concerning the intent of some of the rules, that is primarily subjective.  Only those who originally developed the rules could provide a definite answer and a lot of those people are no longer involved.  For the rest of us it is primarily our opinions, including our opinions as to the whether some of the rules are a benefit or detriment to the club.  There are usually many different ways to look at the issues, which can lead to interesting and sometimes heated discussions.  With that, I think for me at least, it is now time to move on to other things.


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## mshatty (Apr 14, 2007)

Fred,

Thanks for shaing your thoughts.


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## Carmel85 (Apr 15, 2007)

*worldmark Marina dunes  BIG BIG problems*

Please read the info from todays local newspaper !!!!  *WOW SCARY!!!!*

Relaxing spa, deadly menace
Nurse on a mission after barely surviving Legionnaire's disease 

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/17082173.htm


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## Carmel85 (Apr 15, 2007)

*worldmark Marina dunes  +++++BIG BIG problems+++*

Posted on Sun, Apr. 15, 2007	


Relaxing spa, deadly menace
Nurse on a mission after barely surviving Legionnaire's disease
By VIRGINIA HENNESSEY
Herald Salinas Bureau

It was a relaxing soak in a hot tub on a romantic trip to a beachfront hotel in Marina.

Little did Stacy Intille know it would almost cost her her life.

Five days after returning to her Sacramento home in September 2001, the registered nurse fell ill with flulike symptoms. Within days, she was admitted to the intensive care unit and placed on a ventilator with severe pneumonia.

Eventually, she was diagnosed with Legionnaire's disease, an often-fatal illness. It would take her months to recover. Knowing the incubation period for Legionella bacteria is two to 10 days, Intille and her doctors traced her illness to her stay at the Marina Dunes Resort, where Intille, 37, and her boyfriend had soaked in a private "soft tub" on the balcony of their suite.

Tests showed that the same Legionella bacteria strain that had infected Intille's lungs was growing in the jet pipes of the resort's tub. An outraged Intille also learned that her illness was avoidable.

According to a subsequent lawsuit, the Monterey County Environmental Health Department had ordered the resort's owner, John King of King Ventures in San Luis Obispo, to remove the unchlorinated tubs five months before Intille's visit, after it learned of the tubs' presence in the inn's rooms.

King refused, according to the lawsuit, arguing the soft tubs were unregulated "drain and fill" tubs. He did not return repeated phone calls from The Herald.

Intille, who apparently breathed in the deadly bacteria via jet-fizzed water droplets, settled her suit against King for nearly $1 million in October. Now she's on an evangelical mission to educate state health officials and the public about the dangers of improperly maintained spas and the recreational water illnesses they can spread.

"I feel that because I lived through this, my level of obligation as a nurse and survivor is to get the information out there that there is this risk, especially for older folks," said Intille.

She is concerned that King continues to use the tubs in his hotels in San Luis Obispo County, where health officials initially determined they were exempt from regulation. King was forced to remove the tubs in Monterey County after environmental prosecutor Matt Bogoshian filed a civil action that resulted in a court-ordered fine and injunction.

After pressure from Intille, San Luis Obispo County health officials notified King he may not be in compliance with state codes. They are giving him until October, however, to replace the soft tubs with spas that are either regulated by the county or that meet the criteria to be exempt: they must not heat or filter the water and must be completely drained and sanitized between uses.

"I'm trying to balance public health issues with making sure (King) comes into compliance in a reasonable time frame," said Curt Batson, San Luis Obispo County environmental health director. "There's a cost involved and I want to be reasonable here. In the 32 years I've been in this business, I've only heard of one case of (spa-related) Legionnaire's disease."

Breeding ground|

Hot water is a perfect breeding ground for a host of nasty viruses and bacteria. Unless a spa is maintained at proper chlorine and pH levels, according to Intille and Monterey County health officials, it needs to be treated like a bathtub. The water must come hot from the tap and not be heated by the tub, and the tub must be completely emptied and sterilized after each use.

"Fill it when you get in and drain it when you get out," Intille said. To not do so, is "like putting your bath water in an incubator for three days."

One of the more common recreational water illnesses is pseudomonis folliculitis, a rash commonly called "hot tub folliculitis." According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more serious diseases include norovirus, aseptic meningitis and Legionnaire's disease, named after an outbreak of pulmonary infections caused by the bacteria during an American Legion convention in Philadelphia in 1976.

Children, pregnant women, the elderly and people with compromised immune systems, such as those with AIDS or organ transplants, are particularly vulnerable if infected.

Before using a public pool or spa, the CDC recommends that people test the water with pH and chlorine test strips, and even gives directions for the testing on its "healthy swimming" Web site.

Important to report it|

Intille said it's also imperative that people who suspect they've been sickened from a public pool or spa report it to the county's health department and that those who become sick during or within 10 to 14 days of traveling be tested specifically for Legionnaire's disease, which is most commonly spread through ventilation systems.

The CDC estimates that less than 10 percent of all Legionnaire's cases are diagnosed because people are typically treated with antibiotics, which can clear up the infection. Doctors who diagnose Legionnaire's must report it to health officials.

If the county health department is never notified of an outbreak, Intille said, it cannot get to the source. And Jeff Finney, a supervisor with the Monterey County Environmental Health Department, said the disease is often fatal unless treated in its early stages.

"Stacy was very lucky to survive," he said.

Initial problem|

According to court documents, Monterey health officials initially learned of the soft tubs at the Marina Dunes Resort when a man complained that his wife had contracted a uterine infection from soaking in one. Investigating the claim, now-retired health inspector Glenn Joesten found the in-room spas, told King they were illegal and, on three occasions, ordered them removed.

Not only did King have no permits, Joesten told him, Monterey County would never issue permits because the tubs were not chlorinated and could not easily be completely drained between uses.

King refused, arguing that the tubs did not fall under state pool and spa codes because they were "drain-and-fill" tubs and he should be allowed to use them without regulation.

Five months later, as the parties bickered over the definition of regulated spas, Intille and her boyfriend slipped into the warm, soothing waters of the soft tub in their Marina Dunes getaway.

Once notified of Intille's illness, Finney said, Monterey County notified San Luis Obispo County that "we heard King was going to move (the tubs) down there."

"We let him know that we had a person who very likely contracted Legionnaire's disease," he said. "They were told."

Vague regulations|

Batson, the San Luis Obispo County environmental health director, said the problem is that the pool code as originally written is vague. Drain-and-fill tubs, like Jacuzzi bathtubs, were meant to be exempted. In the interim, manufacturers have come up with products that fall in gray areas.

King's soft tubs fall in that category. Like a bathtub, they are not chlorinated and are meant to be drained. However, Intille points out, their drains are not in the bottom, which means they are not easily emptied and residual water remains in the bottom and the pipes.

As a result of Intille's crusade, Batson said, a committee of the state's conference of environmental health directors is reviewing the definition of exempt hot tubs.

"I wouldn't be surprised to see something in those exemption requirements that would require a drain in the bottom so it can be completely drained," he said.

Even then, Batson conceded, water may remain in the jet pipes. Regularly running chlorine through such spas and bathtubs is "not a bad idea," he said.

Letters sent|

Pressure from Intille also prompted Batson to send letters to all of the county's hotel owners, making clear that a hot tub was only exempt from regulation if it has no filter or heater and is drained and sanitized between uses.

Batson is aware that King continues to use the tubs at the SeaVenture Resort in Pismo Beach, the Inn at Morro Bay and the Apple Farm Inn in San Luis Obispo. He said King is replacing the tubs -- because of cost and durability concerns -- with acrylic tubs that meet the drain-and-fill exemptions.

About 30 have already been installed and county health officials are in the process of "verifying" King's claims that they are exempt, he said. He's given King 10 days to produce logs showing when employees have emptied and sanitized the tubs.

One key for Batson is whether the tubs heat the water. He said King told the county the spas' pumps keep the water warm. Even that will not be allowed without regulation, said Batson.

Intille said the water in the soft tub in her Marina Dunes room was newly filled when she arrived. She could tell because the water was hotter the first night than the second and the hotel clerk said that was because the original water came from a spigot on the balcony and could not be maintained at that heat by the spa's heater.

Finney of the Monterey County Environmental Health Department said he thinks King and San Luis Obispo are running a risk by allowing use of the tubs.

"If they do, boy, there's been a precedent set and I think he'll be taken to the cleaners next time."

Spa-use facts Guidelines for safe spa use: • Refrain from entering a spa when you have diarrhea. • Avoid swallowing spa water or even getting it into your mouth. • Shower or bathe with soap before entering the spa. • Observe limits, if posted, on the maximum allowable number of bathers. • Exclude children less than 5 years of age from using spas. • If pregnant, consult a physician before spa use, particularly in the first trimester. What to look for: • No odor; a well-chlorinated spa has little odor. A strong chemical smell indicates a maintenance problem. • Smooth spa sides; tiles should not be sticky or slippery. • Spa equipment is working; pumps and filtration systems make noise and you should hear them running. • Spa temperature; the water temperature should not exceed 104ºF (40ºC) • Check the spa water; test for adequate chlorine (2-5 parts per million) and pH (7.2-7.8) levels. Pool and spa chlorine test strips are available at local home improvement stores, discount retailers and pool supply stores. What to ask: • What was the health inspector's grade for the spa after its last inspection? • Are chlorine and pH levels checked at least twice per day? • Are these levels checked during times when the pool is most heavily used? • Are trained operation staff members available during the weekends when the spa is most heavily used? • What specialized training did the staff take to prepare for working at or operating a spa? • Learn about waterborne diseases and educate other users and your spa operator. • Urge your spa management to spread the word about such diseases to spa staff and pool users. Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention


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## roadsister (Apr 15, 2007)

*Not Worldmark*

Carmel85,

This is NOT Wyndham/Worldmarktheclub property.  

This is the hotel section in front of Worldmark, run by a different company, King Ventures.  They had those rubber hot tubs on each of their patios.  This issue was in 2001.

Those hot tubs have long been removed from their units.


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