# Wyndham VIPs



## pacodemountainside (Nov 22, 2013)

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Margaritaville is old news. :zzz:

What I found interesting is out of some 523K+ owners around 175K or 1/3 are VIPs. Previous information indicated about 15% regular VIP and around 5% temporary.

With that many VIPs one wonders how special it really is, especially if purchased from WVO at their going rate????



"CLUB WYNDHAM Gives More Than 175,000 VIP Members a “Taste of Margaritaville” with an Exclusive Offer"

__________________


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## ronparise (Nov 23, 2013)

Im one out of 175000...not so special


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 23, 2013)

I am one of those 175K too.


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## lcml11 (Nov 23, 2013)

Sandy VDH said:


> I am one of those 175K too.



 ..... Me to.


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## am1 (Nov 23, 2013)

Depends what you do with your membership.  The amount of points and VIP status means little if you are not using it properly.


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## Bourne (Nov 23, 2013)

And how you got to be one in first place. I am going to get a lot of heat for the next statement as I am coming "out".

 They found the unicorn last month out in the Far East..so the timeshare unicorn "Resale Wyndham VIP" exists too... .. And no, I am not going to spill the beans.


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## Explorer7 (Nov 23, 2013)

am1 said:


> Depends what you do with your membership.  The amount of points and VIP status means little if you are not using it properly.


Count me in and I agree with the above statement. I've enjoyed some ridiculous discounts and upgrades over the past few years while people I'm sitting next to in the pool at Wyndham resorts complain they never get an upgrade or discount with their VIP ownership. The potential is there but it does take time and an understanding of the system. it's not on auto pilot.


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 23, 2013)

Bourne said:


> And how you got to be one in first place. I am going to get a lot of heat for the next statement as I am coming "out".
> 
> They found the unicorn last month out in the Far East..so the timeshare unicorn "Resale Wyndham VIP" exists too... .. And no, I am not going to spill the beans.



Congrats. I have 9 VIP resale accounts right now with none of them being mistakes. Total for 11 million points is $9,500 up front (non maintenance fee cost).  

Jason


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## lcml11 (Nov 23, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Margaritaville is old news. :zzz:
> 
> ...



At a Wyndham Owner Workshop I attended (another name for the sales presentation) it was announced the current owner number is 900,000.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 23, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> At a Wyndham Owner Workshop I attended (another name for the sales presentation) it was announced the current owner number is 900,000.



Based on latest  SEC 10K Form , Club Wyndham (WVO) has around  523K members, WorldMark around 300K  and Shell around  100K.  It is posted on WWW web site if one  wants  actual numbers.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 23, 2013)

Bourne said:


> And how you got to be one in first place. I am going to get a lot of heat for the next statement as I am coming "out".
> 
> They found the unicorn last month out in the Far East..so the timeshare unicorn "Resale Wyndham VIP" exists too... .. And no, I am not going to spill the beans.



Really not a secret.  From posts here and on Wyndham web site!

Buy a couple  PIC  eligible    254K contracts for  a buck and  get 508K points.

Buy fixed week contracts   for  a buck   and convert to new points  contracts.

Deal directly with Corporate   when the  have foreclosure or repo they want to get rid of.

Deal with HOA that  has been allowed to sell  repo or foreclosure with VIP   benefits  to make  more salable.

Resale is  miscoded by data entry clerk

Inherit like lcmL11


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## lcml11 (Nov 23, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Based on latest  SEC 10K Form , Club Wyndham (WVO) has around  523K members, WorldMark around 300K  and Shell around  100K.  It is posted on WWW web site if one  wants  actual numbers.



Appears the number quoted was for three major components of Wyndham Vacation Ownership.


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## lcml11 (Nov 23, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Really not a secret.  From posts here and on Wyndham web site!
> 
> Buy a couple  PIC  eligible    254K contracts for  a buck and  get 508K points.
> 
> ...



I am partial to the inherit one.  Transfer by will or close family member works well.


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## Bourne (Nov 23, 2013)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Congrats. I have 9 VIP resale accounts right now with none of them being mistakes. Total for 11 million points is $9,500 up front (non maintenance fee cost).
> 
> Jason



Now that's impressive. 

Mine is not a mistake..just rare..got both where seller covered the transfer fee.

Bonnet Creek sales weasels took it for a spin and confirmed it was legit.


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## ronparise (Nov 23, 2013)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Congrats. I have 9 VIP resale accounts right now with none of them being mistakes. Total for 11 million points is $9,500 up front (non maintenance fee cost).
> 
> Jason



Last time we talked about it you had a goal of something lass than 11 million.

Are you done? or did you reset your goals?


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## Rent_Share (Nov 23, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *jjmanthei05* 

 
_Congrats. I have 9 VIP resale accounts right now with none of them being mistakes. Total for 11 million points is $9,500 up front (non maintenance fee cost). 

Jason_




Bourne said:


> Now that's impressive. offensive



Why not list your other assets Richy Rich

 Another Mega renter on Ignore


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## lcml11 (Nov 23, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjmanthei05*
> 
> 
> ...



I think Mr. Richy Rich has done well.  I wonder if the reporting of his name is accurate.  I do not think that is his real name.


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## jebloomquist (Nov 23, 2013)

The thing that I find most beneficial about being VIP Platinum is the difference in the maintenance fees that I would have to pay if I were not VIP, for the same amount of reservations that I currently do each year.

I do most of my reservations at 50% and with an upgrade from 1 BR to 2 or 3 BRs.

Let’s assume that my current total maintenance fees are $20,000 per year. Without VIP benefit, without 50% reservations with upgrades, to get the same reservations, it would cost about $50,000 per year. I think that my VIP benefits save me $30,000 per year.

Usually on TUG, I see negative comments about how much it costs to get to VIP Platinum, but nothing about potential savings. My total purchase costs for every single Wyndham property that I own is less than $80,000.

You can do the math. It won’t take forever to break even.

Jim


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## Ridewithme38 (Nov 23, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> The thing that I find most beneficial about being VIP Platinum is the difference in the maintenance fees that I would have to pay if I were not VIP, for the same amount of reservations that I currently do each year.
> 
> I do most of my reservations at 50% and with an upgrade from 1 BR to 2 or 3 BRs.
> 
> ...



Wait, at an average price point of about $5 per 1,000 points....You are using the equivalent of 10,000,000 points a year?? I can't imagine using that many points even if i DID do it full time!

Or, we can be forthright and say the VIP Platinum only makes sense if you are a mega-renter...Because, no one can really vacation enough to make it worth it just by using the points themselves


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 24, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Last time we talked about it you had a goal of something lass than 11 million.
> 
> Are you done? or did you reset your goals?



Ron,

Are we ever really done? 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 24, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> I think Mr. Richy Rich has done well.  I wonder if the reporting of his name is accurate.  I do not think that is his real name.



You can look at every post. My name has been the same in 3 1/2 years from when I started here with 189,000 points. 

Jason


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## jebloomquist (Nov 24, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Wait, at an average price point of about $5 per 1,000 points....You are using the equivalent of 10,000,000 points a year?? I can't imagine using that many points even if i DID do it full time!
> 
> Or, we can be forthright and say the VIP Platinum only makes sense if you are a mega-renter...Because, no one can really vacation enough to make it worth it just by using the points themselves



I didn't say how I use my points. Of course I rent them.

However, at some point I may choose to just live at timeshares, and doing it full time, could use quite a few points.

10,000,000 divided by roughly 50 is 200,000 per week. That's not even enough to stay in a 2 BR in Hawaii, where I like to spend time.

Take for example a non-VIP who wanted to stay in a nice 2 BR at Shearwater all the time. It would require 500,000 points per week, or 26,000,000 points per year.

Jim


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 24, 2013)

My basic plan for being a South Florida Snowbird is cheaper - just dislike those so very long airplane flights to the islands. Plus, I can drive down (or auto train) my car (saving on car rental fees greatly).

Of course, every few years, I could still using my points and go visit Hawaii for several weeks -- just plan with Credit Pooling some points.


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## ronparise (Nov 24, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Wait, at an average price point of about $5 per 1,000 points....You are using the equivalent of 10,000,000 points a year?? I can't imagine using that many points even if i DID do it full time!
> 
> Or, we can be forthright and say the VIP Platinum only makes sense if you are a mega-renter...Because, no one can really vacation enough to make it worth it just by using the points themselves



I cant speak for Jim or Jason, but I go through more than they do.  And by the way if you read our posts you will figure out that we are all three still buyers



jebloomquist said:


> I didn't say how I use my points. Of course I rent them.
> 
> However, at some point I may choose to just live at timeshares, and doing it full time, could use quite a few points.
> 
> ...




Jim 

I worked out a scenario  where it would take roughly 250,000 points a week to stay in a 2 bedroom in Panama City year round or about 12,000,000 points...but I would add a studio at about 125000 a week or another 6,000,000 points so I need closer to 18,000,000 points (mf is just about $90,000

Then each week cancel, rebook and upgrade so I get the 2 bedroom at half the studio price....The end result is a 2 bedroom all year for 3000000 points

The question then becomes what the heck to do with the 15000000 cancelled points?....Rent of course, and if I can rent at an average price of $7/1000 points I cover all the mf plus another $1000 a month pocket money

ezpz


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## snickers104 (Nov 24, 2013)

I dont see the problem with someone being a "mega-renter".  It really doesnt affect me or my plans at all...plus it keeps the MF's being paid so the HOA's dont have to eat them.  Plus I applaud these people that have made their own business out of renting, and taking all the risks of ownership.  Just my opinion....


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## ronparise (Nov 24, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> I didn't say how I use my points. Of course I rent them.
> 
> However, at some point I may choose to just live at timeshares, and doing it full time, could use quite a few points.
> 
> ...




Jim 

I worked out a scenario  where it would take roughly 250,000 points a week to stay in a 2 bedroom in Panama City year round or about 12,000,000 points...but I would add a studio at about 125000 a week or another 6,000,000 points so I need closer to 18,000,000 points (mf is just underabout $90,000

Then each week cancel, rebook and upgrade so I get the 2 bedroom at half the studio price....The end result is a 2 bedroom all year for 3000000 points

The question then becomes what the heck to do with the 15000000 cancelled points?....Rent of course, and if I can rent at an average price of $7/1000 points I cover all the mf plus another $1000 a month pocket money

ezpz


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2013)

snickers104 said:


> I dont see the problem with someone being a "mega-renter".  It really doesnt affect me or my plans at all...plus it keeps the MF's being paid so the HOA's dont have to eat them.  Plus I applaud these people that have made their own business out of renting, and taking all the risks of ownership.  Just my opinion....



You better be careful with this one. Saying you are ok with Mega Renters is almost worse than saying VIP benefits have value on here...:ignore:

Jason


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## ronparise (Nov 25, 2013)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You better be careful with this one. Saying you are ok with Mega Renters is almost worse than saying VIP benefits have value on here...:ignore:
> 
> Jason




You ought to visit the Worldmark owners site..They will tar and feather you over there


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2013)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You better be careful with this one. Saying you are ok with Mega Renters is almost worse than saying VIP benefits have value on here...:ignore:
> 
> Jason



I will say it, VIP Benifits have value.  How much is up to the person.  What price to pay is also up to the person.

Regarding the Mega Rentors, who knows, maybe they will get their own community in the Wyndham New Order.

One great submarket they could help with is taking the New York and Chicago Units during Prime Time thereby freeing up a bunch of reservations elsewhere.  This would be ideal for the elite 10 million points plus community and save them a bunch of time finding renters for the smaller point reservations.

With all of the fan fare by Wyndham Sales pushing the new units, Mega Rentors could ride on the Marketing coattails.

With Wyndham Club Pass, it will be interesting to see which way the Mega Rentors jump.  A lot of Snowbird type resorts appear to be coming on board through this program.


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## CO skier (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> With Wyndham Club Pass, it will be interesting to see which way the Mega Rentors jump.  A lot of Snowbird type resorts appear to be coming on board through this program.



12. May I rent inventory that I booked through WYNDHAM Club Pass?

No. Inventory booked via WYNDHAM Club Pass cannot be rented.


Renters, in either system, will not be jumping anywhere.

... and book, book, cancel, cancel, rebook, cancel, book, cancel, rebook, upgrade? ... no


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

CO skier said:


> 12. May I rent inventory that I booked through WYNDHAM Club Pass?
> 
> No. Inventory booked via WYNDHAM Club Pass cannot be rented.
> 
> ...



Last checked, under the members directory, renting of Wyndham points is not permitted.  It is my undertanding, from other Wyndham documents and sources that the renting of reservations is.

There would be no apparent reason that the same rule would not apply.  Heck, even Wyndham will rent reservations for owners, for a fee.

For planning purposes, I would go with Owner care's response.

A test appears to be in order when the reservations become available.  Rent one through the Wyndham rental arm and see if they take it.


As one Sales Manager has recently pointed out to me in a discussion of coming availability under this program.  "It is not in the members's directory" yet.

If the VIP rights apply on points needed for a reservation, then I would assume that all of the associated rights of the program would apply.

You fail to mention that all rules and regulations of the state that the resort is in will be followed.  I do not know if any are applicable to this issue.  I am assuming yes or they would not have mentioned this.

I am also assuming that the contracts signed at point of purchase would also have something to do with this issue, to the extent they are applicable.  Last checked, I am allowed to have a bunch of free guest passes per year and then I pay for additional ones.  I am assuming this will also continue under this program.  I.E.  I will have to use or pay for a guest pass for my guests, rental or otherwise.

Or, is the poster suggesting I cannot use the units for guests.

I would suggest that Wyndham is sort of partial to their fees.   Guest pass fee plus reservation fee plus use of points, not bad for a reservation that may not go used for under 60 days.  It was also not mentioned that Wyndham gets a bunch of these units at the 60 day or less point for what ever they want to do with them.  A general overide of your concerns if they want to go that way.

Oh, forgot to mention the fees their rental arm would get for the rentals on owners behalf.  Do you beleive the master of rentals for Wyndham would not have a real interest in the outcome of this?  It appears in the emerging world of Wyndhamland, the rental arm is emerging as the big cheese.

Do not rule out yet Wyndham's commitment to the fee for service line of thought.  Their stock price has apparently done very well under this type of thinking.


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## sandkastle4966 (Nov 28, 2013)

*"mega renters"*

IMHO - "Mega-renters" got a bad name with general members because they drove some of the fee structure changes:

1) they made a LOT of reservations for primo and desirable weeks, and held them until the day before and then cancelled them when they did not sell them, leaving empty rooms at the last minute

Wyndham address this issue by implementing the 14 day cancellation rule - which solved the "mega renter" problem, but causes issues for the small percentage of actual "I have an emergency and can't go".

2) Wyndham showed at a "side bar" session at the 2008 annual meeting - a chart of the number the of guest certificates issued to accounts.  Basically,  a huge percentage of accounts had zero to "a few" guest certificates, and "very few" had hundreds of certificates per account (there were actually accounts with 1000+ certificates!) - Wyndham then gave a limited number of "freebies".   Some "non-renters" found themselves having to pay for guest certs.   (personally, now that the guest certs are done on-line instead of via a person, I don't get why such a high  fee)


3) at the same meeting, there was another chart regarding the points transfers - this was a labor costly effort, and 97% of the points transferred (yes, that was the figure) were being transferred into a small number of accounts.  So that feature was taken away......



Now we have the issue (and its not just limited to "mega renters")of booking 2-3 rooms for each true reservations to pull the triple book, release, rebook with discount, release, rebook, and release to end up with 1 unit ! (should call this the discount double check !)  I expect that hole with be closed up eventually as well......but given that "quality" of web changes,  that will be  a while !


Personally,  I don't see an issue with "mega renters" - I do wish that they would not hold inventory until 14 days - I would be happy if Wyn made another change:  Cancellations must be outside of 30 days - a stated number  "non-penalty" cancellations per 500k points or something to that effect, or a rolling points refund policy like RCI uses for cancelled weeks.


(and there was the mega renter lawsuit as well that added fuel to the anti-mega renter fire)

just a bit of history......and my 2 cents.....


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> IMHO - "Mega-renters" got a bad name with general members because they drove some of the fee structure changes:
> 
> 1) they made a LOT of reservations for primo and desirable weeks, and held them until the day before and then cancelled them when they did not sell them, leaving empty rooms at the last minute
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information.  The mega rentor issue is an interesting one.  My wife recently got a call from RCI wanting us to let them have RCI weeks so they could rent them.  I believe they also have a no renting rule on the books.  So, this was of some interest to my wife.  RCI appears to be one of the huge mega rentors.

The poster that started this tangent, also overlooked the tag line yours mine ours.  It does not say yours mine ours except for mega rentors and VIP members.  Permitting VIP members (including VIP mega rentors) to use their VIP currency in the Wyndham Club Pass program could very well generate significant fee income for Wyndham and/or their client resorts through more effective use of otherwise empty units.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out regarding the use of VIP currency and mega rentor rights.

By the way, the book cancel rebook trick is not eliminated for the units available under Club Wyndham Pass program if the VIP currency is honored.  It just adds a initial reservation fee to the process.  This would be consist with a fee for service line of thought and past practice.

Could you post a link on the mega rentor lawsuit?

As one mega rentor/mega rentor wan-ta-be that is a platinum VIP member pointed out, if someone whats to buy developer points currently to get VIP status, this makes since primarily to other mega rentors or mega rentor wan-ta-bes.  With this in mind, it would be nice for groups like CJ Timeshares, Sell My Timeshare Now, Sumday vacations, and E-Bay rentors to share their thoughts on this subject, along with other VIP Owners.


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

Found some of it on the lawsuit(s).

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87574

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...nership-time-share-contracts-timeshare-owners

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20130205627

As for the rentiing issue, as of last weekend the buy to rent to cover maintance fees pitch is still a major selling point.  An added bonus if I bought from her is that she would be my Count on Me rep and would also rent on my behalf.  This would cover the existiig contracts and the new contract.  Service under the new 53 plus 8 and Club Wyndham Pass communities were also included in the Count on Me services.

They were not happy campers when I told them we already had two assigned to use from their office (in writing) from a earlier purchase from their location.  Also, mentioned that one of them had left.  The sales Manager indicated that just meant the duties went to another member of their staff.

The way the rental system through the Personal Rep/Count on Me program(s) worked is that they place the unit with the Wyndham Rental Arm.  They get paid by the rental arm for the placement.  The rental arm tells him which weeks they need and they would call us and put the deal together.  Never used this feature because of  the high rental commission the program wanted.  I might, just to see if the program works as described.  This is the system that the one of the sales reps told me was part of the Club Wyndham Access program that he sold to me.

https://www.wyndhamvacationresorts.com/ffr/member/help/learningCenter/details.do?id=LIB-0002137


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## Rent_Share (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> Now we have the issue (and its not just limited to "mega renters")of booking 2-3 rooms for each true reservations to pull the triple book, release, rebook with discount, release, rebook, and release to end up with 1 unit ! (should call this the discount double check !) I expect that hole with be closed up eventually as well......but given that "quality" of web changes, that will be a while !



They have the web site code already, a cancelled Worldmark reservation cannot be rebooked on the same account for 24 hours, multiple accounts might be a work around, but at a cost




sandkastle4966 said:


> I do wish that they would not hold inventory until 14 days - I would be happy if Wyn made another change: Cancellations must be outside of 30 days



The WM brand has a thirty day provision on reservations made in what equates to the ARP period, there is also a provision if the unit is occupied (even on bonus time) you can request that the credits be returned


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> They have the web site code already, a cancelled Worldmark reservation cannot be rebooked on the same account for 24 hours, multiple accounts might be a work around, but at a cost
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the Wyndham Vacation Resorts VIP currency is recognized under the Club Wyndham Pass program, including the discount rights, then this will be a major major advantage for the Club Wyndham plus side.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Thanks for the information.  The mega rentor issue is an interesting one.  My wife recently got a call from RCI wanting us to let them have RCI weeks so they could rent them.  I believe they also have a no renting rule on the books.  So, this was of some interest to my wife.  RCI appears to be one of the huge mega rentor.



FYI: RCI did not call your wife to let them have some of there own weeks.  This is a very common and known scam.  A (scam) company calls and says they are RCI or something that sounds like RCI and claims to want to rent out your extra RCI vacations.  They want you to pay them $xxx per week and then will pay you $yyy per week.

RCI is a mega renter but they wrote the rules and although members can't rent them out, they can.  They don't need to come to anyone to get the weeks.  Per the lawsuit they can start renting deposited exchanges after it sits in inventory 30 days.  For everyone who uses points partners or books a cruise they can pull out "equivalent" inventory as long as no ongoing search is requested for a particular week as soon as it is deposited.


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## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> IMHO - "Mega-renters" got a bad name with general members because they drove some of the fee structure changes:
> 
> 1) they made a LOT of reservations for primo and desirable weeks, and held them until the day before and then cancelled them when they did not sell them, leaving empty rooms at the last minute
> 
> ...





Im sure you are right with your history.  I suppose Wyndham made those three changes  (15 day cancellations, no owner to owner transfers of points and a charge for guest certs) to  to address the problem of large numbers of reservations being tied up for months only to be cancelled at the last minute, presumable by the mega renters.  But I dont think they had any real effect on more than a handful of regular owners

I guess their assumption was that renters made reservations and then couldn't get them rented.  But I gotta say in three years of doing rentals, Ive only had one reservation sit empty because I couldnt get it rented. 

This begs the questions:  Did the changes work to solve the problem? and was it ever a problem in the first place? 

I would suggest that last minute cancellations werent much of a problem in the first place, and if Im wrong about that, regular owners  cancelled as many or more than the renters. If it was a problem Id expect to see lots of the high demand reservations that used to come availoable a day before check in, now come available at 15 days ahead of check in.  My experience is that this is not the case. for example I have never been able to pick up a Mardi Gras reservation at the 15 day mark. and the last time the SuperBowl was in New Orleans (Wyndham has two resorts within walking distance of the Superdome) I wasnt able to pick up a single cancellation in the period 15 days to 20 days ahead of check in. and I practically lived on the website from 7am to 11:45 pm those 5 days.  The high demand weeks just dont get cancelled, at least not much

Maybe renters are  not a real problem but because so many owners and Wyndham think they are, they decided to discourage renting...did it work?? has renting been discouraged??

I dont think so. I think by raising the cost to do this business by charging guest fees, and making things a little more difficult, by instituting a 15 day cancel requirement all that they did was to further focus rental activity on a few really high demand weeks at a few resorts. (these weeks rent for enough to cover mf and the guest fees and still provide a nice profit)  By ending the practice of owner to owner transfers, I suppose the idea was to require the mega renters to become mega owners. But that didnt work either. The value of points on the secondary market dropped like a stone coincident with these changes, making it easy and cheap to become a mega owner, and also points management companies came upon the scene; these are mega renters that dont own a single point. Instead of transferring unneeded points to another owner,  owners simply contract with these management companies who pay the mf and do the rentals in the owners accounts.

Regarding the cancel rebook trick:  If guest fees raised the cost of rentals, the mega renters, who are VIPs, figured out a way to push the cost back down by cancelling and rebooking at a discount and to really knock the cost down by then upgrading into a larger unit. Its not unusual to get a 3 bedroom unit at half the price of a studio.. I dont think this reduces availability, but it does make renting really profitable for those points management companies I mentioned as well as the mega owner/mega renter.

There is no doubt in my mind that Wyndhan will address this use (or abuse) of the system.  Unfortunately I think all it will do is make for more rental activity. If I used to be able to make $400 per week that I rent by using the cancel and rebook at a discount trick. and now I can only make $200....Ill just double the number of rentals I do to keep the same level of income.


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## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Thanks for the information.  The mega rentor issue is an interesting one.  My wife recently got a call from RCI wanting us to let them have RCI weeks so they could rent them.  I believe they also have a no renting rule on the books.  So, this was of some interest to my wife.  RCI appears to be one of the huge mega rentors.
> 
> The poster that started this tangent, also overlooked the tag line yours mine ours.  It does not say yours mine ours except for mega rentors and VIP members.  Permitting VIP members (including VIP mega rentors) to use their VIP currency in the Wyndham Club Pass program could very well generate significant fee income for Wyndham and/or their client resorts through more effective use of otherwise empty units.
> 
> ...



Almost sure that the call your wife got was not from RCI. RCI does rent a lot to members but they dont rent for members. They are renting deposits, 

The "yours mine ours" tag line is Club Wyndham Pass. As you suggest this is limited to just developer purchased points. But I dont think this program will become a big deal for the Wyndham mega renter. for 3 reasons 1) mega renters typically have a few developer purchased points, just enough to become a VIP, but a lot more points purchased on the secondary market. Its only the developer purchased points that can be used in Club Wyndham Pass 2) Worldmark reservations wont become available to us until 9 months prior to check in. Worldmark owners  can make reservations in their system at 13 month (or before) They will have scooped up the best weeks well before the 9 month mark 3) Worldmark already has their own group of mega renters. Anyone in the rental business, that sees opportunity in the Worldmark system already owns Worldmark credits

I have no idea what you are asking in your last paragraph.


----------



## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Im sure you are right with your history.  I suppose Wyndham made those three changes  (15 day cancellations, no owner to owner transfers of points and a charge for guest certs) to  to address the problem of large numbers of reservations being tied up for months only to be cancelled at the last minute, presumable by the mega renters.  But I dont think they had any real effect on more than a handful of regular owners
> 
> I guess their assumption was that renters made reservations and then couldn't get them rented.  But I gotta say in three years of doing rentals, Ive only had one reservation sit empty because I couldnt get it rented.
> 
> ...



I think with the current cheap re-sale values, there are many new opportunities for making rental money off Wyndham Vacation Resort Inventory and now it may be coming to pass off of Worldmark and Shell resorts as well for the Wyndham Vacation Resorts mega rentors.


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## ausman (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> IMHO - "Mega-renters" got a bad name with general members because they drove some of the fee structure changes:
> 
> 1) they made a LOT of reservations for primo and desirable weeks, and held them until the day before and then cancelled them when they did not sell them, leaving empty rooms at the last minute
> 
> ...




Along with the points above raised by Wyndham originally there should be raised to Wyndham the issue of unused points within the system and the effect of those on the above. We all know of people who faithfully pay their MF's and do not use their points due to age, infirmaty, lack of oportunity etc. Unused points are directly to the benefit of Wyndham. It would be nice to have some program to the benefit of owners that absorbed the unused points.


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Almost sure that the call your wife got was not from RCI. RCI does rent a lot to members but they dont rent for members. They are renting deposits,
> 
> The "yours mine ours" tag line is Club Wyndham Pass. As you suggest this is limited to just developer purchased points. But I dont think this program will become a big deal for the Wyndham mega renter. for 3 reasons 1) mega renters typically have a few developer purchased points, just enough to become a VIP, but a lot more points purchased on the secondary market. Its only the developer purchased points that can be used in Club Wyndham Pass 2) Worldmark reservations wont become available to us until 9 months prior to check in. Worldmark owners  can make reservations in their system at 13 month (or before) They will have scooped up the best weeks well before the 9 month mark 3) Worldmark already has their own group of mega renters. Anyone in the rental business, that sees opportunity in the Worldmark system already owns Worldmark credits
> 
> I have no idea what you are asking in your last paragraph.



You raise some good points.  If all of this plays out like we are discussing, the Worldmark mega rentors may not be relevant at all.  They would lose out to the Wyndham Vacation Resorts VIPs and the mega rentors from the Wyndham Vacation Resorts mega rentors for units hitting the 60 day point.  Third and fourth place, I agree will loss out.


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## sandkastle4966 (Nov 28, 2013)

A couple of short replies....

I tracked a number of "mega renter sites"  (I will not name them as they are active posters).  I would literally watch reservations being offered on their sites right up to 2 days prior to the check-in day, disappear from their website, and the next day there would be rooms available that were not there for months.  There are "mega renters" that would book as many weeks as possible across lots of time frames and just move inventory in and out at the last minute.    These renters weren't "focused" on particular "primo demand" times (mardi gras, etc) rather as much "desirable" inventory that they would book.

So yes, I think the cancellation period has helped.  There is still a lot of inventory appearing at 15-25 days but at least you can take advantage of it. 


Re: links on the lawsuit - someone gave a few.  There are VERY interesting documents on the case on the Colorado site.   The suit was settled out of court so no one knows what the actually resolution was (with a gag order of course).


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## sandkastle4966 (Nov 28, 2013)

(deleted - wrong quote !-


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## sandkastle4966 (Nov 28, 2013)

basham said:


> ) they made a LOT of reservations for primo and desirable weeks, and held them until the day before and then cancelled them when they did not sell them, leaving empty rooms at the last minute
> 
> Don't forget that this was a scenario was put forth by Wyndham. There is nothing wrong with having empty rooms, the implication that costs are not being met is wrong. This actually speaks more to Wyndham not being able to take unreserved units at 60 days and rent them through their rental arm.
> .



Actually - my issue with this is that  "I" and others could never get a reservation that I wanted, and the rooms freeing up the day before was too late.  Yes the fees were paid, etc, but why have resorts empty when owers want the units???


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## ausman (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> Actually - my issue with this is that  "I" and others could never get a reservation that I wanted, and the rooms freeing up the day before was too late.  Yes the fees were paid, etc, but why have resorts empty when owers want the units???



Owners likely won't get them anyway. Wyndham will take them first. The right to do so according to the Trust documents.


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> You raise some good points.  If all of this plays out like we are discussing, the Worldmark mega rentors may not be relevant at all.  They would lose out to the Wyndham Vacation Resorts VIPs and the mega rentors from the Wyndham Vacation Resorts mega rentors for units hitting the 60 day point.  Third and fourth place, I agree will loss out.



The big winners very well be mega rentors such as Wyndham Extra Holidays and the Count on Me sales reps and their clients.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> The big winners very well be mega rentors such as Wyndham Extra Holidays and the Count on Me sales reps and their clients.



The "Count on Me" is a Wyndham Sales "Crap" Promo line!!! You believe those sales puffery bull $h!t feel good print signs???? Wyndham Sales has NOTHING TO DO WITH RENTING OUT ANYONE'S vacation time weeks, reservations or points ---- they are not Extra Holidays and not connected in any way shape or form.

As for Extra Holidays - they ask the OWNERs to assign their Fixed weeks and reservations for a 40% commission with proceeds PAID 30-45 days after check in for.... except, if someone rents JUST 1 night of your reservation (or fixed week) --- that is it. The other 6 nights just sit vacant. You (the owner) pay for the credit card processing fee and a 40% commission. If they RENT anything -- as most RENTERS want a 2 or 3 night weekend --- and you have a Saturday-Saturday night reservation. And once you assign your week to Extra Holidays, you can NOT find out IF any of it has been rented or can reverse the transaction IF you decide to use it yourself. Better to keep the points reservation and CANCEL to keep the points at the 15 days out mark.

Plus, quoting YOURSELF ...


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> ... Re: links on the lawsuit - someone gave a few.  There are VERY interesting documents on the case on the Colorado site.   The suit was settled out of court so no one knows what the actually resolution was (with a gag order of course).



Kendra Bowers quote from another site:

"Danielle - Fair Warning.  It is probably best that you don't read the following as it may only serve to upset you.  Kendra

UPDATING on my lawsuit against Wyndham.  My case has been moved from District Court in Colorado Springs , CO to Federal Court in Denver , CO .  On Thurs, Dec. 4 I received Wydham's "Answer and Counterclaims" to my Complaint.  Their reply to all 192 of my 'points' was "Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief about the truth of the allegation in #X of Plaintiff's Complaint and, therefore, deny the same."  A routine and standard reply.

Following is part of my reply to opposing counsel  "Hi Larry  I've read your Answer and Counterclaim to my Complaint and thought your comment about denying my requests because I have `unclean hands' was most unkind.  It is true that I don't shower everyday but I do `wash up' (as my Daddy used to say) and my hands don't get that dirty since I'm on the computer most of the time.  And what does it matter to the courts anyway?  How would you like it if I asked it/them to deny your request to deny my requests because your feet stink?

Just kidding  but I had to read it twice (laughing both times) and ask some friends what it meant.  Hope you will receive the above in the good humor with which it was intended."

I meet on Dec. 12 with opposing counsel (Larry) to prepare a "Scheduling Order" that we will submit to the courts.  Our first scheduled court appearance will be on Jan. 23 at 9am for a "Scheduling Conference".

Many people have emailed me at wyndhamrental@... to express concern and support in my struggle, to ask for a copy of my Complaint and/or to offer questions to ask.  The saddest, however, are the many emails I have received from Wyndham owners who regret their developer purchases and are hopeful that there is something I can do or say to help them.

Thanks for your continuing support and encouragement.  Kendra"

Still looking.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 28, 2013)

sandkastle4966 said:


> Actually - my issue with this is that  "I" and others could never get a reservation that I wanted, and the rooms freeing up the day before was too late.  Yes the fees were paid, etc, but why have resorts empty when owers want the units???



If anyone thinks the MegaRenters have a secret sauce for keeping those reservations and cancelling 2 days before checkin --- NOPE.

The secret is, they get online at 7AM book the rentable stuff with big profit and cancel the reservation, if UNPAID for before the online system goes down that night. They just keep making and cancelling those reservations each day - AND renters who call in with last minute, they PAY immediately for the reservation.

Just need a WEBSITE drawing in clients, a credit card online system (Paypal is NOT it - fees and charge backs) and internet phone system (cheaper than 1-800 numbers) --- a good fast internet service is a must. The mega renters are NOT geniuses --- just a call center with multiple web pages.


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> The "Count on Me" is a Wyndham Sales "Crap" Promo line!!! You believe those sales puffery bull $h!t feel good print signs???? Wyndham Sales has NOTHING TO DO WITH RENTING OUT ANYONE'S vacation time weeks, reservations or points ---- they are not Extra Holidays and not connected in any way shape or form.
> 
> As for Extra Holidays - they ask the OWNERs to assign their Fixed weeks and reservations for a 40% commission with proceeds PAID 30-45 days after check in for.... except, if someone rents JUST 1 night of your reservation (or fixed week) --- that is it. The other 6 nights just sit vacant. You (the owner) pay for the credit card processing fee and a 40% commission. If they RENT anything -- as most RENTERS want a 2 or 3 night weekend --- and you have a Saturday-Saturday night reservation. And once you assign your week to Extra Holidays, you can NOT find out IF any of it has been rented or can reverse the transaction IF you decide to use it yourself. Better to keep the points reservation and CANCEL to keep the points at the 15 days out mark.
> 
> Plus, quoting YOURSELF ...



Extra Holidays does handle points based reservations also.  I tested it one time and they took it.  I cancelled the booking when it showed up as being one step down from what it actually was.

Also, Extra Holidays does handle a lot of the Wyndham Vacation Resorts facilities.  All of the Resorts I own at are on  the Extra Holidays site.  Also,  Bonnet Creek was there, Edisto Island, Old Town Alexandria, National Harbor, Shawnee Village, and Avenue Plaza were among the ones I checked.

If I remember right, from awhile ago, at least one postor raised the issue at least a few times that Wyndham Vacation Resorts inventory went off to Extra Holidays.  Or, is my memory fading me?

By the way, your statement is not consistent with what has come out of Shawnee Mountain, Old Town Alexandria, National Harbor, and Skyline Towers.  True or not it is a consistent theme across resorts.

If you are willing to share, I would be very interested in your assessment of the New Wyndham Pass program.  You appear to be one of the rentors that has the most knowledge of the Wyndham Systems.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 28, 2013)

*VOI(FVPUMTA) and WVO Different Legal Entities*

Based on posts here   relating    to these two entities  appears be confusion.

WVO is basically a marketing organization   whose mission is to sell, scam, etc. people into  buying, using  anything short of brute force  Wyndham TS Intervals. It derives its income  from theses sales  and $299 transfer fee,  conversions,  sweet heart management contracts, etc.

1991   VOI Trust as  amended was created to provide reservations,  maintaining owner records,  etc. for  purchasers of  preceding. Its primary source of income is from  POA fee levied per 1,000 points based on  ones actual status,  what it deems excessive usage fees  such as guest  certificates, reservation transactions, etc.

Trust document may be  viewed at:

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=1608&t=10935

Of course, there is  the third party HOA who runs resort by Wyndham selected manager

While in theory Trust is  supposed to be run by  4 independent owners and 3  Wyndham  appointees, it is really   run by Wyndham executives  as a  Triumvirate Dictatorship.  Unfortunately,  Arkansas AG  has  said no problem with failing to allow election of  4 independent members. Bill Spearman wrote a great expose a few years ago in Timesharing Today.

It does  pay WVO a  fee to manage   which is basically  pure profit  plus  all costs ala  WWII cost plus  contracts.

WVO did reimburse  Trust around  $13 million dollars  for VIP Benefits, etc.  WVO also has to provide developer inventory to cover  VIP  points  discounts.  Dividing $13 million by 175K  VIPS  indicates  cost to WVO is only about $75.

Yes, WVO can legally steal 90% of inventory at  60 day  mark  and rumor is that is why cancel  and rebook does not always work.

Unused inventory just expires, WVO  does not automatically get. Generally take the good  stuff for EH  to rent!


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Based on posts here   relating    to these two entities  appears be confusion.
> 
> WVO is basically a marketing organization   whose mission is to sell, scam, etc. people into  buying, using  anything short of brute force  Wyndham TS Intervals. It derives its income  from theses sales  and $299 transfer fee,  conversions, etc.
> 
> ...



Or maybe now what Extra Holidays does not want might go to the Wyndham Club Pass program where they honor the VIP currency.  This would not appear to cost them anything since they alreaady took the units.  No reimbursement to the Trust would be needed.

This would be a good test of their new tag.


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## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Or maybe now what Extra Holidays does not want might go to the Wyndham Club Pass program where they honor the VIP currency.  This would not appear to cost them anything since they alreaady took the units.  No reimbursement to the Trust would be needed.
> 
> This would be a good test of their new tag.



What the hell are you talking about???

New tag?
VIP currency?

I don't think Some Inventory is going to Club Pass. Rather All Club Wyndham Access left at 9 months is going to be made available to Worldmark Travelshare members

Extra holidays doesn't take anything unless an owner gives it to them or unless it's left unreserved at closer to check in


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199600


ronparise said:


> What the hell are you talking about???
> 
> New tag?
> VIP currency?
> ...



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199600 See post 3 number 16. 

http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/Por...5-02-wyndham-timeshare-presentation-final.pdf  In this link, Wyndham Corporate describes Club Wyndham Access as the next generation of points.  No real discussion directly on point on what this means. 

Also, at the Owners Update at Shawnee Mountain, a group presentation, a owner brought up the issue of a Universal Point contract that was being pitched at Bonnet Creek.  The decision was referred to an after presentation meeting.  (the wife was complaining after their meeting that their 45 minute pitch was over 2 hours).  The person was trying to have the presentor make a straight up trade of existing units for the Universal Points instead of the Bonnet Creek offer that included the purchase of more points.  The presentor was indicating that Bonnet Creek was right, it would take purchase of additional points.

I was not familiar with that program, so I asked what Universal Points was.  The presentor indicated it was not a formal term but was just one that was being used.

There was also some limited discussion in the Group Meeting and the follow on one on one meeting about why availability was showing on the reservation process on one screen and then disappears on another.  What followed in the Group Meeting was a brief discussion with some other owners about needing the right number of points in the right program.  Three types of ownership were identified.  Club Wyndham Select, Access, and Presidential Reserve.  This discussion was just bring home to me and presumably others That a Wyndham point is not a Wyndham point when it comes to the issue of availability.

For a description of the Tag you made reference to, the best description I have seen was made by the poster at number 39 above.  P.S.  just to save you some time, you were  the poster.  I am hopeful that since you knew what it was, you could give a further description of it and answer the What the Hell question you posed as it relates to the TAG.

As for the Wyndham currency issue, it appears it is going be a issue between at least the Wyndham Club Pass program and whatever is being referred to as Home Club currency.

I am hopeful that presumably my home Clubs will be Access and Select and the existing VIP currency (one half of the asking point rate for reservations under 60 days) will come into play in the new Wyndham Club Pass program.  I was told by the sales person that I was no longer designated a Select or Access owner.  I have been branded a Fairfield owner.  She flashed something in front of me as her proof but would not let me read it.

Maybe someone that has attended recent sales presentations or owners updates can shed some more light on what Wyndham is doing.'

The only thing, in writing, that I have seen pertaining to Wyndham Club Pass Inventory is from point one in post three of the link provided in this post.  It states:

"1. What is WYNDHAM Club Pass?

WYNDHAM Club Pass is Wyndham Vacation Ownership’s new internal exchange program. This program is a simple way to give our CLUB WYNDHAM® and WorldMark® by Wyndham owners the freedom to move outside of their individual home Clubs, expanding their access to unique destinations found across the country. The tagline, Yours. Mine. Ours. reinforces that Wyndham is truly one company with one set of values."

This suggests to me that there will be a real inventory for the Wyndham Club Pass program that is exchange based.

I had not considered the possable impact on re-sale contract availability.  However, if there is a real inventory based on exchanges from the affected clubs where the inventory involved sits in the Club Wyndham Pass program, it would be logical that there would be less inventory for the re-sale owner.  The bigger the program gets, the less inventory in the re-sale inventory pool.  The conversation between the Presentor and some of the owners is now starting to register with me.


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## lcml11 (Nov 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> ... I don't think Some Inventory is going to Club Pass. Rather All Club Wyndham Access left at 9 months is going to be made available to Worldmark Travelshare members ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 28, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> The "Count on Me" is a Wyndham Sales "Crap" Promo line!!! You believe those sales puffery bull $h!t feel good print signs???? Wyndham Sales has NOTHING TO DO WITH RENTING OUT ANYONE'S vacation time weeks, reservations or points ---- they are not Extra Holidays and not connected in any way shape or form.
> 
> As for Extra Holidays - they ask the OWNERs to assign their Fixed weeks and reservations for a 40% commission with proceeds PAID 30-45 days after check in for.... except, if someone rents JUST 1 night of your reservation (or fixed week) --- that is it. The other 6 nights just sit vacant. You (the owner) pay for the credit card processing fee and a 40% commission. If they RENT anything -- as most RENTERS want a 2 or 3 night weekend --- and you have a Saturday-Saturday night reservation. And once you assign your week to Extra Holidays, you can NOT find out IF any of it has been rented or can reverse the transaction IF you decide to use it yourself. Better to keep the points reservation and CANCEL to keep the points at the 15 days out mark.
> 
> Plus, quoting YOURSELF ...



Right on! They got me once. Rented  Friday , Saturday and Sunday for $800, left me  with  useless  other days and after 40% commission and CC  fee I lost over  $300 after  paying MF!


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## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> ronparise said:
> 
> 
> > ... I don't think Some Inventory is going to Club Pass. Rather All Club Wyndham Access left at 9 months is going to be made available to Worldmark Travelshare members ...
> ...


----------



## scootr5 (Nov 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Regarding Pathways, I disagree with you and your source too



Unless I'm mis-reading, he's reverting back to his "source" being what sales tells him or calls in to VCs or Owner Care....


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## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199600
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199600 See post 3 number 16.
> 
> ...



 I referred to "Yours Mine and Ours" as a tag line.  Similar to "The pause that refreshes"  or  "You deserve a break today" or "the good life" or "Just do it". or "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking"

Its advertising hype

Its not going to change anything

Oh and just to end the discussion relating to a points a point and if will make you happy, Im willing to concede that your points are much better than mine...

Ive got more of them, but yours must be better than mine, after all a Wyndham salesman  told you so

and the only thing thats going to change resale contract availability is if Wyndham starts buying back contracts...and if that happens Im a millionaire...On second thought maybe my points are better than yours


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 28, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> ronparise said:
> 
> 
> > ... I don't think Some Inventory is going to Club Pass. Rather All Club Wyndham Access left at 9 months is going to be made available to Worldmark Travelshare members ...
> ...


----------



## ronparise (Nov 28, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Margaritaville is old news. :zzz:
> 
> ...



Paco..did you ever think this thread you started would last this long and go to 60+ posts??


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## lcml11 (Nov 29, 2013)

ronparise said:


> ... Oh and just to end the discussion relating to a points a point and if will make you happy, Im willing to concede that your points are much better than mine...
> 
> Ive got more of them, but yours must be better than mine, after all a Wyndham salesman  told you so
> 
> and the only think thats going to change resale contract availability is if Wyndham starts buying back contracts...and if that happens Im a millionaire...On second thought maybe my points are better than yours



I am assuming you are well on your way to the Millionaires Club.  Congratulations.  Your points are much better than my points because you can go out and buy a new pathways contract and start taking some of your profit.

If you want to replace the inventory you sold back, as you know, you can just buy some more and sell it back to Wyndham to.  Why stop at a millionaire.


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## lcml11 (Nov 29, 2013)

"





scootr5 said:


> Unless I'm mis-reading, he's reverting back to his "source" being what sales tells him or calls in to VCs or Owner Care....



Over time, my primary sources of information are the Wyndham sites, Management Company staff, Owner Care, Reservations, parking pass people, Salespeople their supervisors and managers, sales presentations, personal experience, etc.

One thing that would be great is if people that are going to the sales presentations would post what they are being told.  That be very helpful in expanding the knowledge base.  Now that a primary poster in support of the "A Wyndham Point is a Wyndham point" theory has given up that position, updates on what different Wyndham points are now and are becoming would also be great.  A better understanding of different availability pools relating to the different types of Wyndham points and a better understanding of what this critter out of Bonnet Creek that is being referred to as a Universal Points contract would be interesting as well.  The only thing the presentor was clear on at Shawnee Village was that it required a new points purchase and trading of existing contracts for the new contract was not good enough.

This may be a little harder to get, but one link from Wyndham  that was posted made reference to Club Wyndham Access points being the new generation of points, hopefully time will bring us more information on the specifics of this new generation of Wyndham Points.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 29, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Over time, my primary sources of information are the Wyndham sites, Management Company staff, Owner Care, Reservations, parking pass people, Salespeople their supervisors and managers, sales presentations, personal experience, etc.
> 
> One thing that would be great is if people that are going to the sales presentations would post what they are being told.  That be very helpful in expanding the knowledge base.  Now that a primary poster in support of the A Wyndham Point is a Wyndham point theory has given up that postion, updates on what different Wyndham points are now and are becoming would also be great.  A better understanding of different availability pools relating to the different types of Wyndham points and a better understanding of what this critter out of Bonnet Creek be referred to as a Universal Points contract would be interesting as well.
> 
> This may be a little harder to get, buy one link from Wyndham  that was posted made reference to Club Wyndham Access points being the new generation of points, hopefully time will bring us more information on the specifics of this new generation of Wyndham Points.



Back to "IGNORE" again --- delusional is a descriptive term.

MOST of your sources have their PRIMARY income coming by selling commissioned sales of Wyndham products - others HAVE absolutely NO interaction with the Wyndham (timeshare) Points products as either employees or as consumers. 

As for the "Bonnet Creek" product of a "Universal Points Contract", THERE IS NO NEW PRODUCT. Period. Bonnet Creek sales is SPINNING a bunch of words together to create a need to buy something and to MAKE THEMSELVES a commission check.

And as for PATHWAYS program, it is another "Smoke and Mirrors" program. *ONLY the Wyndham contracts brought WITH THIS OPTION* _might_ be included in a "repurchase" at 20% of the original sales price. NOT other developer points purchase contracts - not resale contracts - not converted fixed weeks contracts -AND most likely, NOT even those contracts --- it is NOT a promise to rebuy at 20% original costs ---- it is just part of the sales "SPINNING" to overcome an BUYING objection as to residual value of a developer purchase.

RR - you have had some education and hold some type of licensed with your home state - but the people WHO you keep referencing as your good sources are UNNAMED and UNGOOGLE-able by us. And all of us other Wyndham owners have had dealings with most of these levels of "customer service agents" or "commissioned ONLY" employees. 

As for others of us POSTING out experiences with a sales presentation, I stopped going and some of us, are simply "backlisted" by sales from attending any more "Owner's Updates". Is that ANYWAY a company should be handling their OWNERS who stay at their resorts and pay the MFs which pay the salaries of the many other Wyndham employees? And are HASSLED repeated by sales to attend 90 minute "Owner's Updates" on every stay with phone calls, hangtags, "parking passes", area references for dinner or tourist sites...

And most of us owners are VERY HAPPY with the product -- so why are we being targeted, hassled, threaten ---- to the point where we use OLD HANG TAGs, disconnect our condo phones, lie as to who is travelling with us, etc?


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> I am assuming you are well on your way to the Millionaires Club.  Congratulations.  Your points are much better than my points because you can go out and buy a new pathways contract and start taking some of your profit.
> 
> If you want to replace the inventory you sold back, as you know, you can just buy some more and sell it back to Wyndham to.  Why stop at a millionaire.



Pathways wont work; only a few of my points were purchased from Wyndham,   and of course you know the Pathways contracts dont obligate Wyndham in any way


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> "
> 
> Over time, my primary sources of information are the Wyndham sites, Management Company staff, Owner Care, Reservations, parking pass people, Salespeople their supervisors and managers, sales presentations, personal experience, etc.
> 
> ...



I havent given up my position, only given up arguing it with you.

In my  most recent encounters with Wyndham sales folk,  they have told me that Pathways wont help me or anyone that owns resale contracts for that matter.

By the way all Wyndham Points whether purchased resale or retail or inherited like yours are "Universal Points" That's just your salesman's way of saying "Points are Points"


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2013)

scootr5 said:


> Unless I'm mis-reading, he's reverting back to his "source" being what sales tells him or calls in to VCs or Owner Care....



It continues to amaze me how he can take what he's told by salesman and the vc's and add what he reads on the internet, and comes to the conclusions he does...

its like adding 2 and 2 and 2 and getting 27


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## Bigrob (Nov 29, 2013)

I am just wondering what difference it makes what people hear at sales presentations anyway. Anything that is said means nothing, unlike the contract which means everything, as many people have found out very sadly after the fact (see example):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6QrEJFQjQ

Rather than speculating and extrapolating what little grain of truth might be embedded within the stories spun by people who are only experts in selling and closing - and not the product - I say show me the contract.


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## CO skier (Nov 29, 2013)

ronparise said:


> I havent given up my position, only given up arguing it with [lcml11].



The smart thing for anyone to do, plus there are those words of wisdom from Mark Twain and George Carlin regarding arguing.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 29, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Paco..did you ever think this thread you started would last this long and go to 60+ posts??




Blows my  mind! I thought a few ho hum interesting reads and no responses.

Goes to show on TUG one never knows who is  going to jump in including our nemesis RR!

Still working on renting  last  Mardi Gras  Week at AVP.

What ever happened to 1969 VW bus? Shades of your "raiding"   scammers   in mobile home park. I might  do, but with my  Colt 357 Magnum  that I have  carry permit for.

As many times as I have stayed at AVP have  never hit Sir Johns, but  your review  has convinced I need to do!

Also,  did not know one  could  stay in house!


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Blows my  mind! I thought a few ho hum interesting reads and no responses.
> 
> Goes to show on TUG one never knows who is  going to jump in including our nemesis RR!
> 
> ...



My Mardi Gras stuff is going slow too, but things are looking up. I rented one tonight.

My old VW bus blew an engine, .  The block cracked in 1972 at about 80000 miles. Something about an undersized air cooled engine, mounted in a box in the back without sufficient air flow to it.  It wouldnt hold oil anymore. I patched it with some liquid weld, which would hold until the engine heated up, limped it into a Ford dealeship, and traded it for a Ford Pinto of all things.  At the time I thought I did well. As it turned out they got the better deal

The trailer park scammer gave me a deed complete with the San Francisco County recorders stamp on it...forged Im sure. Im waiting for confirmation of that before going to the States Attorney. I was a little worried about my safety, but played the "doddering old fool" card. Also as it turned out he was a skinny little guy,(and Im not)  I may have been fooling myself, but I think I could take him, even at my advanced age.

I paid for my steak at Mr Johns with a gift card I got at one of the Worldmark resorts I stayed at. They havent black-listed me there... yet. I had enough let over to pay for a half a tank of gas.


next trip I hope to stay in the Ashley House...


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## CO skier (Nov 29, 2013)

This entire thread reminds me of the premise behind the TV series "Seinfeld" -- 72 post (to this point) about ... nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQnaRtNMGMI


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## lcml11 (Nov 30, 2013)

ronparise said:


> It continues to amaze me how he can take what he's told by salesman and the vc's and add what he reads on the internet, and comes to the conclusions he does...
> 
> its like adding 2 and 2 and 2 and getting 27



"and the only think thats going to change resale contract availability is if Wyndham starts buying back contracts...and if that happens Im a millionaire...On second thought maybe my points are better than yours "

2 and 2 and 2 do not equal 27.  Oh, I will have to go back and check my math.  Thanks for the info.

In the meantime, I think the other quote above from a salesman that I believe handles Wyndham Timeshares, both rental and sale, if of particular interest.

I think this salesman may have it right.  By the way, I think Wyndham has been taking back and buying back units for a long time and I think the effect of this may also be showing in the "re-sale" availability being discussed by this particular salesman.  

I would not entirely discount statements of people that sell Wyndham Timeshares.  There is always the Kernel of Truth.  I think, in the case of this particular salesman, he shares  more Kernels than most.  Especially as it relates to his comment on re-sale availability.

If memory serves, other threads have talked of their buyback through HOAs for $1 or something like that.  

Other posters have talked of contracts for sale through Corporate Sales.  Now Pathways appears to be a new maybe path for Wyndham buybacks.

This salesman, I do not think, is on the Wyndham payrole, per se.

By the way, I just went back and checked my math.  It looks good to me.  But what the heck, I did not not inherit all of my timeshares and, like other posters on this site, I have bought from Wyndham.  Maybe my math was wrong there to.

Since the posts are rather old at this point, I wonder if this person can review the math again on how a combination of re-sale purchases and retail purchases can provide a relatively inexpensive path to VIP ownership if wanted to go that route.

Looking at the matter from a re-sale point availability perspective raises the question, What is the value of a Wyndham Re-Sale Point in terms of availability going forward.  This particular category of Wyndham points does not do much for the Wyndham Point is a Wyndham Point view.

By the way, thank you for letting me know my Wyndham developer point are the Universal Points that were mentioned in Sales Presentations at Bonnet Creek and Shawnee Village.


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## lcml11 (Nov 30, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Back to "IGNORE" again --- delusional is a descriptive term.
> 
> MOST of your sources have their PRIMARY income coming by selling commissioned sales of Wyndham products - others HAVE absolutely NO interaction with the Wyndham (timeshare) Points products as either employees or as consumers.
> 
> ...



As far as the Blacklisting you made reference to, it would indeed be nice if Wyndham would use the Owner Update group presentation to invite the blacklisted owners to the presentation.  They would not have to offer any incentive.  If an owner wanted the update they could go to get the Kernel of Truth that a number of posters give the sales staff as being true.

Sorry, I thought most of my sources were clearly cited and/or named.  In reviewing the major sources, I did miss specifically miss one major salesman's name that I do value and put some weight (especially relating to the Wyndham re-sale points discussion relating to availability) to, however, you are correct, he apparently does get a bunch of money from the sale and/or rental of Wyndham timeshares and/or providing timeshare relief services.  Apparently, he is does well as a competitor to their Pathways program, among other thing.  To be perfectly clear on the name, it is Ron.  You do make valid points not to buy into everything a person that makes money off of Wyndham Timeshares says.  This includes timeshare sales, re-sales, and rentals.  By the way, everyone is free to put me in this category to if they want to.

I think my posts, over time, are clearly cited that the TUG site is one of the major internet sources I follow and put some weight to.  Major posters, such as yourself can provide a Kernal of truth now and again.

I look forward to being added to ignor lists for those who do not like what I say.  Thanks.


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## ronparise (Nov 30, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> As far as the Blacklisting you made reference to, it would indeed be nice if Wyndham would use the Owner Update group presentation to invite the blacklisted owners to the presentation.  They would not have to offer any incentive.  If an owner wanted the update they could go to get the Kernel of Truth that a number of posters give the sales staff as being true.
> 
> Sorry, I thought most of my sources were clearly cited and/or named.  In reviewing the major sources, I did miss specifically miss one major salesman's name that I do value and put some weight (especially relating to the Wyndham re-sale points discussion relating to availability) to, however, you are correct, he apparently does get a bunch of money from the sale and/or rental of Wyndham timeshares.  To be perfectly clear on the name, it is Ron.  You do make valid points not to buy into everything a person that makes money off of Wyndham Timeshares says.  This includes timeshare sales, re-sales, and rentals.  By the way, everyone is free to put me in this category to if they want to.
> 
> I look forward to being added to ignor lists for those who do not like what I say.  Thanks.



You are exactly right, I do make a little money with my Wyndham ownership. But the difference between what I say here on tug,  and what your Wyndham employed salesmen say to you in a sales presentation, is that Im not saying it to get into your pocket. There really is a chinese wall (look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall ) between my comments here and what I say in my advertising. They dont mix (Denise sees to that) 

There is also a difference between my opinions or "best guesses" and yours. I use a fact based logic to arrive at my conclusions, and  usually provide a disclaimer like "this is my opinion" at least I think most folks can see how I arrive at my conclusions.  (Remember Im the one that posted a copy of the Pathways contract to back up my opinion that its a BS program) .  While you start with a salesman's hype and go from that to some really weird stuff, with very little verifiable fact, logic or common sense. I often preface my posts with something like "I own a ton of Wyndham points, so I might be a little biased" and so you know, I also own  a little Marriott a little Worldmark and several independents so I can compare and contrast Wyndham to them

There is a reason Im not welcome in many Wyndham salesrooms, and its not that I wont buy from them. I have and I will again. The reason they dont want me there is, I think, I am able to "look behind the curtain" I know the system pretty well, and I see the difference between the "kernal of truth" that is always there and the web of B.S. that they spin around it. 

The only reason I dont have you on ignore like so many others, is that I dont want someone new to these boards or Wyndham to base any decisions on the baloney you post, much of which is just re-constituted salesman's B.S.


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## lcml11 (Nov 30, 2013)

ronparise said:


> You are exactly right, I do make a little money with my Wyndham ownership. But the difference between what I say here on tug,  and what your Wyndham employed salesmen say to you in a sales presentation, is that Im not saying it to get into your pocket. There really is a chinese wall (look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall ) between my comments here and what I say in my advertising. They dont mix (Denise sees to that)
> 
> There is also a difference between my opinions or "best guesses" and yours. I use a fact based logic to arrive at my conclusions, and  usually provide a disclaimer like "this is my opinion" at least I think most folks can see how I arrive at my conclusions.  (Remember Im the one that posted a copy of the Pathways contract to back up my opinion that its a BS program) .  While you start with a salesman's hype and go from that to some really weird stuff, with very little verifiable fact, logic or common sense. I often preface my posts with something like "I own a ton of Wyndham points, so I might be a little biased" and so you know, I also own  a little Marriott a little Worldmark and several independents so I can compare and contrast Wyndham to them
> 
> ...



Maybe, since your sales related information does not always line-up with Wyndham Information maybe you should put me on ignor.  Listening to one saleman's information vs. anothers can shed good information on a issue.  I will not put you or vacationhopeful on ignor.  Both sometimes give neat kernals of truth.


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