# Star points vs star options



## momofthreeplusone (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi all,
Am so grateful to have found this site. Almost got "hooked" by the developer for Westin Naanea resort last week while we visited Kauai, in fact signed up for the explorer package, though am now rethinking.
Am now considering buying into Starwood through resale instead of the developer, and canceling my explorer package. After researching, I found that all the benefits of buying resale are the same as from the developer with the exception of starpoints not being transferable to a new buyer. Staroptions are transferable, as I understand, and these are used for booking future vacations. Starpoints can be used for airline tickets, hotels within the network, etc, as I understand it all.  
Has anyone regretted not having those starPoints? It seems to me that the cost of buying in the resale market vs. from the developer greatly outweighs what I would be losing by not having starPoints. 
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 22, 2017)

StarOptions are only transferable if you purchase at one of the five mandatory Vistana properties. StarOptions do not transfer on resale for most properties.

The ability to convert to Starpoints is always a debated topic. For most, the value isn't there to pay tens of thousands of dollars from the developer to get that benefit.


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## Helios (Sep 22, 2017)

The value of the Starpoint is a very personal answer you can only answer.  IMO, it depends on your lifestyle.  I only see value as a backup plan at the end of the year when banking is not needed and there are no other reservations you need.  In my case, I only get a positive value when I want to get premium travel out of my Starpoints.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 22, 2017)

Well - one thing is true... regardless of this age-old discussion - the SP conversion value and MF ratio has certainly gone in a negative direction over time, and seems to be the trend that is holding.

SP value decrease and/or
MF increase 



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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 22, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> Well - one thing is true... regardless of this age-old discussion - the SP conversion value and MF ratio has certainly gone in a negative direction over time, and seems to be the trend that is holding.
> 
> SP value decrease and/or
> MF increase
> ...


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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 22, 2017)

Helios said:


> The value of the Starpoint is a very personal answer you can only answer.  IMO, it depends on your lifestyle.  I only see value as a backup plan at the end of the year when banking is not needed and there are no other reservations you need.  In my case, I only get a positive value when I want to get premium travel out of my Starpoints.


Good point, thank you. Have you found starpoints easy to convert to airline tickets and such?


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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 22, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> StarOptions are only transferable if you purchase at one of the five mandatory Vistana properties. StarOptions do not transfer on resale for most properties.
> 
> The ability to convert to Starpoints is always a debated topic. For most, the value isn't there to pay tens of thousands of dollars from the developer to get that benefit.


I am beginning to think that way as well. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.


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## DeniseM (Sep 22, 2017)

To illustrate David's point:  We bought at WKORV (original Maui resort) pre-construction, and our maintenace fee was around $1,100.  We received 80,000 Starpoints for our 2 bdm. lock-off.  Since then, our maintenance fee has doubled - but we still only get 80,000 Starpoints.

Not only that, but the number of Starpoints _required _for hotel stays, etc, has increased as well.  So our 80,000 Starpoints are worth around 30% of what they were worth when we bought them.  Because of this, we would never convert our Maui week to Starpoints.

A better way to get Starpoints is to get a Starwood AMEX.  We put every cent we spend on it, and pay it off at the end of each month so we don't pay any interest, so the Starpoints are virtually free.  When you transfer Starpoints to airlines in increments of 20,000 Starpoints, you get a 5,000 point bonus (25,000 Starpoints.)

It's easy to transfer Starpoints to airlines, but of course you want to make your airline reservations early, to have the best availability of award seats.

What resort are you considering buying on the resale market?  Nanea and Princeville do not have Staroptions when purchased on the on the resale market.  The best Hawaii resale value is the original WKORV, because it has Staroptions, and the maintenance fee is the lowest of the Hawaii resorts.

The least expensive re-sale deeds are the Island View deeds, but Island View = highway view, so if you are going to buy in Hawaii, I recommend buying Ocean View or Ocean Front.

The original phase (WKORV) also has the best ocean front views - the ocean ends of bldg. 2 and 3.

Bldg. 2, 3, 4 = WKORV
Bldg. 5, 6 7, 8 = WKORV-North


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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks Denise. I am definitely thinking of Ocean view or Ocean front-Ocean front if I can get it. I learned today that Nanea and Princeville were "voluntary" resorts, so am leaning towards WKORV. Thanks for the map! I thought that WKORV-North was further away. I very much appreciate your insight.


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## NWTRVLRS (Sep 22, 2017)

We are at the WKORV right now, checking out tomorrow. We sat through the developer meeting last week and I immediately came back to the room and looked up Tugg info.. this site is THE best!


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## Helios (Sep 23, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> Good point, thank you. Have you found starpoints easy to convert to airline tickets and such?


Very easy, but it is highly dependent on the airline and route you want.  I live near NYC, so that helps me a lot because of the large supply.

Converting Staroptions to Starpoints (for an eligible VOI can be done online) in the Vistana website.  Transfer from Starpoints to miles/points can be done online at the SPG website.  Make sure you transfer blocks of 20,000 to maximize return (you get 25,000 miles/points for most partners for some are 2:1 ratio - I believe United).  Also, I would transfer 60,000 max per day because of max daily point transfers and maximizing the 25% bonus I mentioned.

As an example, you could transfer your SPG points to Lufthansa (or Aeroplan) and fly Lufthansa first for a good ROI.  Booking this is doable 14 days before departure.  If you like booking in advance, you can go for biz initially and then ask to upgrade to F once availability opens.  This, of course, is just one example.  There are many more you can find in the google machine.


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## Helios (Sep 23, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> but of course you want to make your airline reservations early, to have the best availability of award seats



This is not always correct, it depends on the cabin you want and the airline.  In some cases, booking close to departure gives you better results, but you need to have the stomach for it and know how the airline releases seats.


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## DeniseM (Sep 23, 2017)

Clarification- you cannot convert Staroptions to Starpoints - it's  (full) weeks to Starpoints.  Staroptions are not involved.

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## bobpark56 (Sep 23, 2017)

We have both star points and Marriott Rewards points. Our experience is that our Marriott Rewards points have depreciated significantly faster than our SPG starpoints.


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## Helios (Sep 23, 2017)

bobpark56 said:


> We have both star points and Marriott Rewards points. Our experience is that our Marriott Rewards points have depreciated significantly faster than our SPG starpoints.


+1, I value SPG points more.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Sep 23, 2017)

All of our timeshares are resale but we have  point collections with all the major hotel chains. My husband is an avid student of all the point blogs.
Million Mile Secrets is the best one to start with to learn basics. We have not needed hotel points from our timeshares. We also rarely pay to fly.
I would rarely if ever use my timeshare for points even if I had them.


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## MamaT (Sep 24, 2017)

Regarding buying at WKORV, do I understand that if you buy there, you can only vacation there? There are no Options you can use to book at another SPG resort? When I was looking to buy at Harborside I spoke to THE TIMESHARE KING (lol) on the phone, who was actually very helpful. He told me I didn't want to buy there, the maintenance fees were too high - I'm assuming they are high in Hawaii too? He said what I wanted to do was buy at another resort that had enough points, but at a lower annual fee, to be able to trade into Harborside. So that's what we did, ended up with two 2BR lockoffs at Sheraton Vistana Villages in Orlando with 81,000 pts each. We've owned them for about 9 years, and have used the points to book at Harborside 3x, Kauai and St John - excellent vacations all but Kauai was my favorite! Also booked family in Cancun for Thanksgiving one year, and in other years have booked various locations and rented them out. So you might consider that,

( part of this post has been deleted because advertising is not allowed in the discussion forums. Ads can be placed in the TUG Marketplace.)


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## r1lee (Sep 24, 2017)

Why would you cancel your Explorer package? It's a pretty good deal.


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## Dawnwrey (Sep 24, 2017)

WKORV and WKORVN are both mandatory resorts , and therefore do come with star options. Good for you for buying resale at SVV and making the most of your ownership! However, you are in violation of policy if you are booking vacations at properties where you do not own and renting them out. You may risk having your renters turned away, and certainly the disapproval of owners at those resorts who play by the rules. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as an owner at WKORVN and WSJ, and paying those high MFs, I don't feel happy about others making rent money off of these properties where they do not own.


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## MamaT (Sep 24, 2017)

Dawnwrey said:


> WKORV and WKORVN are both mandatory resorts , and therefore do come with star options. Good for you for buying resale at SVV and making the most of your ownership! However, you are in violation of policy if you are booking vacations at properties where you do not own and renting them out. You may risk having your renters turned away, and certainly the disapproval of owners at those resorts who play by the rules. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as an owner at WKORVN and WSJ, and paying those high MFs, I don't feel happy about others making rent money off of these properties where they do not own.



I see your point. I honestly had no idea this wasn't allowed, in fact I thought it specifically WAS allowed. But in checking the rules, renting to a 3rd party is only allowed at your home resort, a nuance I missed (probably read it when I first bought but forgotten by the time I actually did a 3rd party rental years later). "VistanaTM Signature Experiences does not offer an Owner rental program at any of its villa resorts. However, as an Owner, you may reserve a Vacation Period at your Home Resort and arrange a private third-party rental."


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## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2017)

> Regarding buying at WKORV, do I understand that if you buy there, you can only vacation there? There are no Options you can use to book at another SPG resort?



Maui now has 3 resorts:  Original/South, North, and Nanea.

If you buy resale at the North or South resorts, you get Staroptions which you can use at any resort.  

If you buy resale at Nanea, you do not get Staroptions, and you can only make reservations at Nanea.

Only these 5 resorts are mandatory, which means that resales DO have Staroptions:

* Harborside at Atlantis
* Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West phases only)
* Westin St. John (Virgin Grand - Hillside only)
* Westin Ka'anapali & Westin Ka'anapali-North
* Westin Kierland Villas


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 24, 2017)

r1lee said:


> Why would you cancel your Explorer package? It's a pretty good deal.



Is it?  Only if you intend to buy from VSE - which is questionable under most circumstances.  IMO 


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 24, 2017)

MamaT said:


> I see your point. I honestly had no idea this wasn't allowed, in fact I thought it specifically WAS allowed. But in checking the rules, renting to a 3rd party is only allowed at your home resort, a nuance I missed (probably read it when I first bought but forgotten by the time I actually did a 3rd party rental years later). "VistanaTM Signature Experiences does not offer an Owner rental program at any of its villa resorts. However, as an Owner, you may reserve a Vacation Period at your Home Resort and arrange a private third-party rental."



It now states this on the Reservation Confirmations from VSE/VSN.


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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 24, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> Is it?  Only if you intend to buy from VSE - which is questionable under most circumstances.  IMO
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree, the explorer package isn't that great of a deal unless you end up buying from the developer. Then you are essentially getting two weeks for the price of the package (the purchased week with the package and the starpoints for listening to the presentation). Yes, that $2794 would go towards downpayment if we did buy from the developer; but it still seems to me that saving tons of money buying resale is a way better deal than the explorer week for $2794 (in a studio) and 50,000 starpoints if we listen to the sales pitch. We sent our cancellation notice yesterday. I am checking into a rental for our vacation next year and planning on meeting a resale broker in Lahaina during that trip to discuss buying a 2 BD unit with 148,100 star options resale.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 25, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> I agree, the explorer package isn't that great of a deal unless you end up buying from the developer. Then you are essentially getting two weeks for the price of the package (the purchased week with the package and the starpoints for listening to the presentation). Yes, that $2794 would go towards downpayment if we did buy from the developer; but it still seems to me that saving tons of money buying resale is a way better deal than the explorer week for $2794 (in a studio) and 50,000 starpoints if we listen to the sales pitch. We sent our cancellation notice yesterday. I am checking into a rental for our vacation next year and planning on meeting a resale broker in Lahaina during that trip to discuss buying a 2 BD unit with 148,100 star options resale.



and... if you are going to buy from VSE, then you should buy resale first to requalify into VSN (maximizing SO value).


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## momofthreeplusone (Sep 25, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> and... if you are going to buy from VSE, then you should buy resale first to requalify into VSN (maximizing SO value).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is VSN? I clearly have more research to do!


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## bobpark56 (Sep 25, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Maui now has 3 resorts:  Original/South, North, and Nanea.
> 
> If you buy resale at the North or South resorts, you get Staroptions which you can use at any resort.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are saying the pool villa units at WSJ are not mandatory. Are you sure that's what you mean to say?


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## SandyPGravel (Sep 25, 2017)

bobpark56 said:


> Sounds like you are saying the pool villa units at WSJ are not mandatory. Are you sure that's what you mean to say?



Pool villas are part of the Hillside, (i.e. VGV).


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> What is VSN? I clearly have more research to do!



It's just the abbreviation for Vistana Signature Experiences/Vistina Signature Network - Vistana bought Starwood out and Vistana is the management company now.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Sep 25, 2017)

Dawnwrey said:


> WKORV and WKORVN are both mandatory resorts , and therefore do come with star options. Good for you for buying resale at SVV and making the most of your ownership! However, you are in violation of policy if you are booking vacations at properties where you do not own and renting them out. You may risk having your renters turned away, and certainly the disapproval of owners at those resorts who play by the rules. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as an owner at WKORVN and WSJ, and paying those high MFs, I don't feel happy about others making rent money off of these properties where they do not own.


Am I the only person who doesn't really care who rents out what/when? Owners have exclusive rights to their own resorts at the 12-8 month mark and after that it is open season to anyone within the network. As someone who has 'invested' over $100K in purchase and maintenance fees over the past 12 years and has 192,000+ SO/year I'd like to be able to do what I want with my 'investment'. Under the 'rules' I can't even give it away to family/friends/charity unless it's my home resort reservation? For example, I currently have 44,000 banked Lagunamar SOs that would buy me 5 days in a studio at Princeville in April 2018 (open to anyone in the network to reserve as of today) that I might want to 'gift' to someone - shouldn't that be OK? What if I want to rent it out at say $100/night or even $500/night - shouldn't that be OK? Or if I can't use them is it better to just let my surplus SO expire and let the developer line their pockets. This is America isn't it


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 25, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Only these 5 resorts are mandatory, which means that resales DO have Staroptions:
> 
> * Harborside at Atlantis
> * Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West phases only)
> ...



We are considering a resale purchase at WKORVN.  Are mandatory staroptions for resale baked into the deed? or can Vistana change the rules so that when someone purchases my unit in the future resale staroptions don't work anymore?


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

Staroptions are not deeded - they are part of your club membership in the VSN.  I certainly don't expect it to happen, but it is "possible" for them to go away.  This would be resort wide - not owner by owner.

Example:  The Villas of Cave Creek has an independent board of directors, and when Starwood put pressure on them to do a big renovations project and raise maintenance fees to pay for it, the BOD voted Starwood out as the management company.  That meant that everyone who had Staroptions at the resort, lost them, and just owned a deed week that they could reserve at VCC.  There were people who bought multiple deeds there and requalified them to acquire elite status, so it was a real blow for them.

However, the BOD's at the Hawaii resorts are hand selected by the management company, and happily rubber-stamp anything they ask for, so it's very unlikely to happen in Hawaii.


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## vacationtime1 (Sep 25, 2017)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't really care who rents out what/when? Owners have exclusive rights to their own resorts at the 12-8 month mark and after that it is open season to anyone within the network. As someone who has 'invested' over $100K in purchase and maintenance fees over the past 12 years and has 192,000+ SO/year I'd like to be able to do what I want with my 'investment'. Under the 'rules' I can't even give it away to family/friends/charity unless it's my home resort reservation? For example, I currently have 44,000 banked Lagunamar SOs that would buy me 5 days in a studio at Princeville in April 2018 (open to anyone in the network to reserve as of today) that I might want to 'gift' to someone - shouldn't that be OK? What if I want to rent it out at say $100/night or even $500/night - shouldn't that be OK? Or if I can't use them is it better to just let my surplus SO expire and let the developer line their pockets. This is America isn't it



There is nothing preventing you from renting your WKORVN unit, renting your WLR unit, or gifting your units to family/friends/charity.

You bought your units subject to the 'rules' of those units (technically, the rules of SVN/VSE) prohibiting rentals of StarOption exchanges.  Why wouldn't those rules apply here?

Personally, I like those rules.  It increases my chances of making a StarOption exchange to someplace I want to visit.  I work hard enough to maximize the value of my units; I don't want to compete with a commercial enterprise created to arbitrage StarOption/MF ratios in order to maximize rental profits.  I would not buy into a system if those were its 'rules'.


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## remowidget (Sep 25, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Clarification- you cannot convert Staroptions to Starpoints - it's  (full) weeks to Starpoints.  Staroptions are not involved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


Good point. There is another great use of SPG points for air. You can trade 90k SPG points to Marriott, making 270k Marriott points. That will buy you a category 5 fly and stay package, which for us was 7 nights in a category 5 Marriott hotel and 120k Southwest points. A round trip ticket from Portland Oregon to Cancun is about 25k Southwest points.

So, for a little more than a Platinum plus lock off week, you can get 7 nights in a Marriott and almost $2500 worth of flights.

Marriott offers other categories and airlines as well.

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## remowidget (Sep 25, 2017)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> All of our timeshares are resale but we have  point collections with all the major hotel chains. My husband is an avid student of all the point blogs.
> Million Mile Secrets is the best one to start with to learn basics. We have not needed hotel points from our timeshares. We also rarely pay to fly.
> I would rarely if ever use my timeshare for points even if I had them.



We have only converted our time into Starpoints once, but may do so more in the future. (see my fly and stay comment above) I'm not sure I would have bought what I have from VSE, if I had known then what I know now. However since we own in Lagunamar and the points work out to less than $0.02 each, it isn't always such a bad deal and can be pretty awesome in some cases. 

The way I see it, using the flexibility provided us by purchasing from VSE does pay back some of what we overspent in buying from them. For instance, we stay over three weeks in Lagunamar in a one bedroom in January for the StarOptions from one Platinum Plus lockoff week. If we had purchased on the secondary market, we would get a one bedroom for a week and a studio for the second week. To me this represents extra value that gets deducted from what I paid VSE, or in effect payment on the principle from our purchase.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 25, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We are considering a resale purchase at WKORVN.  Are mandatory staroptions for resale baked into the deed? or can Vistana change the rules so that when someone purchases my unit in the future resale staroptions don't work anymore?


The mandatory language is written in to the recorded condo documents for each of those resorts. So in a way, it is a deeded right as long as Vistana is the management company. If they make changes or do away with it, it would impact direct purchasers as much as it would resale owners at mandatory resorts.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 25, 2017)

remowidget said:


> Good point. There is another great use of SPG points for air. You can trade 90k SPG points to Marriott, making 270k Marriott points. That will buy you a category 5 fly and stay package, which for us was 7 nights in a category 5 Marriott hotel and 120k Southwest points. A round trip ticket from Portland Oregon to Cancun is about 25k Southwest points.
> 
> So, for a little more than a Platinum plus lock off week, you can get 7 nights in a Marriott and almost $2500 worth of flights.
> 
> ...



It's a great package however most people will likely use more points to upgrade to a cat 7 - 9 package because most of the 1 - 5 hotels are low-end business hotels near suburban business parks. Not much fun to to spend a week in one of those - especially if you already travel a lot for work.

With the SPG merger, can Vistana owners now take advantage of the 5 day flight and air packages available to Marriott Vacation Club owners?


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

Yes - you can convert Starpoints to Marriott points.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 25, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - you can convert Starpoints to Marriott points.


However, at least per the rules Starpoints obtained by converting a timeshare week can't be converted to Marriott Reward points.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 25, 2017)

The 5 day packages are fewer points and only available to Marriott timeshare owners (no need to use timeshare points). The public can only buy 7 day packages.

My question is: Do Vistana owners now qualify for this 5 day timeshare owners package with the merger?


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

> The 5 day packages are *fewer points* and only available to Marriott timeshare owners (*no need to use timeshare points*)



I'm not sure what you mean by no need to use timeshare points - what kind of points do you use?  Marriott credit card points?

Post #37 above discusses the 5 day packages.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 25, 2017)

MR points


DeniseM said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by no need to use timeshare points - what kind of points do you use?  Marriott credit card points?
> 
> Post #37 above discusses the 5 day packages.



Yes.  Here is a link that discusses the 5 day travel package only available for MVC timeshare owners.  Timeshare points not required to book; just SPG or Marriott Hotel points from any source:

http://frequentmiler.boardingarea.c...ight-travel-packages-exist-but-theyre-secret/

(it would be nice if Vistana owners could use this too.)


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

We can - see post #37 above.  SPG points (hotel points) can be converted to Marriott (hotel) points.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 25, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> MR points
> 
> 
> Yes.  Here is a link that discusses the 5 day travel package only available for MVC timeshare owners.  Timeshare points not required to book; just SPG or Marriott Hotel points from any source:
> ...


Marriott Rewards reps confirm your Marriott timeshare ownership prior to allowing you to elect a five night package. A MR account would not show anything regarding Vistana ownership, so I suspect that Vistana owners can't use the five night MR travel packages.


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2017)

I have never done it myself - I was depending on the reports of others - like the quote in post #37.  I know this has been discussed before, but it's probably not something I would do, so I haven't really followed it.


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## VacationForever (Sep 25, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The 5 day packages are fewer points and only available to Marriott timeshare owners (no need to use timeshare points). The public can only buy 7 day packages.
> 
> My question is: Do Vistana owners now qualify for this 5 day timeshare owners package with the merger?


Since Vistana (timeshare) is not part of the SPG-Marriott merger, Vistana owners won't be able to purchase the 5 night travel package.


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## remowidget (Sep 26, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> However, at least per the rules Starpoints obtained by converting a timeshare week can't be converted to Marriott Reward points.


Wow, I didnt know that. I wonder what will happen when they merge the SPG program into Marriott.

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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 26, 2017)

remowidget said:


> Wow, I didnt know that. I wonder what will happen when they merge the SPG program into Marriott.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk



Unless you must reserve an SPG week when you convert staroptions to starpoints, I cannot see how they can possibly track this.  Even if true, if you cancel the SPG reservation I believe it refunds starpoints to your account which can then be converted 3:1 to Marriott.  YMMV as I am not a Vistana owner but this is based on my experience using starpoints.


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## VacationForever (Sep 26, 2017)

I just did it last year. I converted Vistana week to Star points and then transferred to Marriott Reward points. No problem at all.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Sep 26, 2017)

vacationtime1 said:


> There is nothing preventing you from renting your WKORVN unit, renting your WLR unit, or gifting your units to family/friends/charity.
> 
> You bought your units subject to the 'rules' of those units (technically, the rules of SVN/VSE) prohibiting rentals of StarOption exchanges.  Why wouldn't those rules apply here?
> 
> Personally, I like those rules.  It increases my chances of making a StarOption exchange to someplace I want to visit.  I work hard enough to maximize the value of my units; I don't want to compete with a commercial enterprise created to arbitrage StarOption/MF ratios in order to maximize rental profits.  I would not buy into a system if those were its 'rules'.



So is it just the 'for profit' scenario that you find objectionable? Can I rent it out for a loss? Pretty easy to do when compared to Maui MFs. Other than that what does it matter to you who occupies a unit using SO? It could be me, it could be a member of my family, a neighbor, a friend.....if it's reserved it's reserved. I doubt there are many individuals doing it 'for profit' when compared to the inventory VSN/Starwood utilize 'for profit'.

As for renting out my ownership, never had much success in doing that so any tips appreciated. Have had Presidents Week 2018 at WKORVN on Redweek for 6 months at the lowest price listed and not a single inquiry so that looks like another 148,100 SOs I'll be looking to utilize. At this rate I'll have 500,000 in the bank and need to take a 6 month sabbatical in Florida


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 26, 2017)

Rule 1: SOs cannot be rented (even at loss)
Rule 2: See Rule 1

Like many aspects in TSing - important to know rules going in.  This has always been the case with no renting of SOs - enforcement is more recent.

For many - it is about taking away SO availability at premium resorts.

I rent a few of my VOIs - these are all Home Resort rentals that I paid a hefty premium to own.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Sep 27, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> Rule 1: SOs cannot be rented (even at loss)
> Rule 2: See Rule 1
> 
> Like many aspects in TSing - important to know rules going in.  This has always been the case with no renting of SOs - enforcement is more recent.
> ...



Rule 1: Never pointed out in over 15 sales presentations/owners updates I've attended
Rule 2: See Rule 1

I'll be at Nanea next week (SO reservation made at the 3 month mark) so will listen very carefully and ask some very leading questions about SO usage to see what answers they give.

Still not sure how individuals making SO reservations to give (or sell) to their friends/family/neighbors takes away from SO availability at premium resorts because the prime weeks/units there will always be taken by the owners in the 12-8 month window (and released before/around the 90 day window if they fail to rent them out to cover their MFs and/or make a profit). All 3 Maui resorts are still wide open for late April and all May next year to anyone in the network to book today if they want to.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 27, 2017)

I believe the rules are intended to avoid creating arbitrage for professional renters in favor of property owners who are paying full boat to use their property. If you have a situation that is infrequent or a one-off that should not be a problem.

Consider this:  If you are a WKORV OF owner, lock off your unit and want to book the studio during the following week to make a 2 week vacation, does that become a Staroption trade?  Do you get any preference to use it OF at WKORV during that second week?  

What about preference if you want to use it later in the year?  Given the premium paid for OF and WKORV, I hope there would be preference over Vistana property traders and particularly professional renting companies who are arbitraging on a broad scale.


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## mauitraveler (Sep 27, 2017)

For that second week, you would still be using your ownership to book, as long as you are within the 8-12 month window.  I've done this in the past.  Actually, I booked both weeks at the same time, since I waited to book at 12 months out from the second week.  CJ


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## bobpark56 (Sep 27, 2017)

SandyPGravel said:


> Pool villas are part of the Hillside, (i.e. VGV).


Funny. They don't seem like Hillside to me. I think you have your terminology twisted.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 27, 2017)

mauitraveler said:


> For that second week, you would still be using your ownership to book, as long as you are within the 8-12 month window.  I've done this in the past.  Actually, I booked both weeks at the same time, since I waited to book at 12 months out from the second week.  CJ



Thank you.  As a prospective owner, that is comforting to know.  What happens if you book OF at 12 months for the 1 BDRM side for whale season in Feb and you lock off your studio and want to book it 12 months out for the following July?  Does the studio still get preferential OF booking because it is 12 months out from the reservation?


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 27, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you.  As a prospective owner, that is comforting to know.  What happens if you book OF at 12 months for the 1 BDRM side for whale season in Feb and you lock off your studio and want to book it 12 months out for the following July?  Does the studio still get preferential OF booking because it is 12 months out from the reservation?



Timestamp generally rules - this is what is often told to me and appears to be the case based on my experiences.

You can split 1Bd and studio, but best to reserve the minute the reservation window opens whether at 12 months for Home Resort, or 8 months for SOs.

Temper your expectation to get PrezDay week (or other high demand weeks) - that takes timing and luck that you refreshed the browser at the right time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 27, 2017)

@EnglishmanAbroad - I am not going to respond - waste of time.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you - contact VSE/VSN and complain- maybe they can explain better the rules and reasoning.

Do your research.

btw - it was partly me who got VSE/VSN to put this rule on the reservation confirmation - so you can thank me for that. If you make a cohesive argument with VSE/VSN - they will listen.
Try Suzanne Clark - SVP of Owner Services.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 27, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> Timestamp generally rules - this is what is often told to me and appears to be the case based on my experiences.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks. I am still confused as to what constitutes a 12 month owner trade in a lock-off situation and how timestamps work.  

Is the 12 month owner preference tied to each side of the unit? or when the first owner reservation is made?  

So if the timestamp on the 1 BDRM in Feb is at 12 months. Do I get another timestamp for reserving the studio side in July at 12 months as an owner reservation?  or does the studio convert to SO because the 12 to 8 month window locked with the first reservation of the 1 Bedroom and I must wait until the 8 month staroption window opens in November to reserve the studio for the following July?


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Sep 27, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> @EnglishmanAbroad - I am not going to respond - waste of time.  Sorry if this does not sit well with you - contact VSE/VSN and complain- maybe they can explain better the rules and reasoning.
> 
> Do your research.
> 
> ...



Actually did my research based upon my SO reservation at Nanea next week as you suggested and found out 2 things:-

1. The reservation information displayed online is wrong as it states it's a Home Resort Reservation which is news to me as I never bought anything at Nanea.
2. Requested a confirmation email and the details are correct and as you say contains the following:-

Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network™ until compliant.

So I'm happy because, if needed, as long as I'm not renting it out and I'm willing to pay the fee they introduced in that communications debacle at the beginning of the year to change the guest name then I'm covered.


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## blondietink (Sep 27, 2017)

Did the owners update today and toured Nanea. They said we could rent out any reservation we made at our home resort which they wanted to be Nanea. Of course we declined their offer, but it was the first time in an owners update that they mentioned renting.


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## DeniseM (Sep 28, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. I am still confused as to what constitutes a 12 month owner trade in a lock-off situation and how timestamps work.
> 
> Is the 12 month owner preference tied to each side of the unit? or when the first owner reservation is made?
> 
> So if the timestamp on the 1 BDRM in Feb is at 12 months. Do I get another timestamp for reserving the studio side in July at 12 months as an owner reservation? or does the studio convert to SO because the 12 to 8 month window locked with the first reservation of the 1 Bedroom and I must wait until the 8 month staroption window opens in November to reserve the studio for the following July?



When you split your two bedroom lock-off and reserve separate dates - the reservation rules apply to each side separately.  The 1st reservation has no impact on the 2nd reservation.  The rules are simply based on the date of check-in for each, separate reservation:

ALL reservations made 12-8 mos. before check-in are home resort reservations. The earliest you can make a home resort reservation is 12 mos. before check-in at midnight eastern. 

For example - tonight (Sept. 27) at midnight eastern, you can reserve Friday, Sept. 28, 2018.

The timestamp indicates how early or late you made your reservation.  The timestamp is not on your reservation, and you won't know what it is - it's only in the reservation system.  But it's pretty simple - the earlier you make your reservation, the lower your timestamp number will be.

ALL reservations made 8-0 mos. before check-in are Staroption reservations - even at your home resort.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 28, 2017)

Thank you for clarifying @DeniseM.  What happens to your second half of your unit if you don't book it by the end of the year?


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## DeniseM (Sep 28, 2017)

If you don't reserve it, convert it to Starpoints, roll the Staroptions over to the next year, or deposit it with an exchange company, it simply expires and you lose it.


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## echino (Sep 28, 2017)

What if I own a voluntary resort bought resale that does not have staroptions, like SDO, and make a reservation 8-0 months out, is it a home resort reservation or a staroptions reservation? Can I rent it out?


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## DeniseM (Sep 28, 2017)

Good question - my explanation above was about Mandatory/Staroption deeds.

With a voluntary resort, all reservations are home resort reservations, regardless of when you make them.  A voluntary deed does not have Staroptions, so you can't make Staroption reservations.

However, if you own a specific season, you are limited to making a reservation in that season, and it's best to make it as early as possible (12 mos. out.)

You are allowed to rent a reservation you make at your voluntary resort - you own it.


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## VacationForever (Sep 28, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> If you don't reserve it, convert it to Starpoints, roll the Staroptions over to the next year, or deposit it with an exchange company, it simply expires and you lose it.


Conversion to Starpoints is between Oct 1 of prior year to Mar 31 of current use year, one cannot wait until the end of the use year to do so.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 28, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Conversion to Starpoints is between Oct 1 of prior year to Mar 31 of current use year, one cannot wait until the end of the use year to do so.



Thanks all for clarifying. Good to know I would keep my OF preference as long as it is 12 months reservation even if the lock-off is split from the other side.  I would have until Mar 31 (or June 30?) of the use year to convert to Star Options - that is a great benefit! 

Without converting to staroptions do the units have to be used in the use year?  For example, can I book 12 months out in February of the use year for Feb the following year?  Is that answer any different with an EOY unit?


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## DeniseM (Sep 28, 2017)

You don't actually convert to Staroptions.  You can use Staroptions for the entire year - you just make a reservation using the Staroptions and it happens automatically.

There is a deadline to roll Staroptions over to the next year, and for a non-Elite owner, it's July 1.

If you don't roll the Staroptions over to the next year, you have to use your week during that year, or it expires.  "Use" may include depositing it with II, or converting it to Starpoints, or making a home resort reservation, or making a Staroption reservation, or rolling the Staroptions over to the next year.

[For example, can I book 12 months out in February of the use year for Feb the following year?]

No - Staroption reservations cannot be made 12 months out - Staroption reservations start 8 mos. out from check-in.  To make a 2018 Staroption reservation, you have to roll 2017 Staroptions over to 2018.

However, in this scenario, you can make a _home resort reservation_ at 12 mos., using the 2018 usage.


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## r1lee (Sep 28, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> Is it?  Only if you intend to buy from VSE - which is questionable under most circumstances.  IMO
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Really? I always thought the Explorer package was the cheap package they offer back to owners to revisit the resort and the ones shared with potential new owners.

This was at lagunamar. 

The new owner one was
4 nights stay in studio for $419.

They offered us
4 night stay studio for 399
4 night 1bd for $449
5 night studio $449
5 night 1 bedroom $499.


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## momofthreeplusone (Oct 1, 2017)

Yes, but I think that you still save more by not buying from the developer. Even with the enticing pricing of the explorer package.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Oct 1, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> Yes, but I think that you still save more by not buying from the developer. Even with the enticing pricing of the explorer package.


You can still take the explorer package and not buy. It is an incredible deal for a vacation for the added cost of 90 min of your time for a presentation. We did the 5 day one at Lagunamar, then bought resale at Kierland. Does anyone know how often these come your way? Is it yearly? If you go to an owner's update does that cancel the possibility of these offers?


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## DeniseM (Oct 1, 2017)

Once you become an owner, I don't think you are eligible for this offer.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Oct 1, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Once you become an owner, I don't think you are eligible for this offer.


I have heard of owner's being offered it but it may just be when they are introducing a new program such as the Mexico one.


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## DeniseM (Oct 1, 2017)

I have been an owner since pre-WKORV, and I don't get these offers, but perhaps others do.


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## remowidget (Oct 1, 2017)

They have made us offers, but it has included SPG points for more money

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## DeniseM (Oct 1, 2017)

Do you get them in the mail, or at owner updates?


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## remowidget (Oct 1, 2017)

At owners updates.

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## dioxide45 (Oct 1, 2017)

They always offer Explorer package offers after a sales presentation. We never get offers in the mail or by phone.


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## momofthreeplusone (Oct 1, 2017)

For the Explorer package, they offered us a studio at WKOVR for one week. Total cost would have been $2900. Going  through listings, looks like I can rent a two bedroom for that price.


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## remowidget (Oct 1, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> For the Explorer package, they offered us a studio at WKORV for one week. Total cost would have been $2900. Going  through listings, looks like I can rent a two bedroom for that price.


How many Staroptions were included? Usually, it is quite a few.

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## momofthreeplusone (Oct 2, 2017)

remowidget said:


> How many Staroptions were included? Usually, it is quite a few.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk


No staroptions, but they did offer 5,000 starpoints


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## remowidget (Oct 2, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> No staroptions, but they did offer 5,000 starpoints


Doh. Lol. Yea, that would not be a very good deal.

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## canesfan (Oct 2, 2017)

I’ve gotten offered Explorer packages after an owner update. Recently I received a promo in the mail for a lower priced package for one of the CA desert properties. We had no interest so I just tossed it. 


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 2, 2017)

I was referring to the ExpPkg that is offered at end of Sales Presentation (Owners Update), and not some of the other Preview offers that are good deals (as long as one doesn't buy).  Also, not referring to the SPs that they sell at discount - that value is dependent on many factors (as often discussed).

The ExpPkg is a good deal if one buys from VSE - and that GENERALLY is not a good deal unless one is planning on 5* AND they are requalifying high SO resales while getting to 5*.  AND, it can still be argued...
And Yes - there are exceptions to this...

I did purchase an EOY WPORV with 100K SP incentives from SVO (pre-VSE) using a same-day ExpPkg (80K SPs), and requalified an annual VOI (148.1K SOs) with the EOY purchase and got to 3* Elite/SPG Gold (that I have gotten some use from), and got Owner price ($24K vs. $36K) - and ended up with a total of 225K SPs that we used for 16-day 1st class vacation in Europe.  That $24K EOY WPORV is now worth ~$3K on resale market, BUT still a happy owner of WPORV. But... was it worth it?  Depends...


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## r1lee (Oct 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Once you become an owner, I don't think you are eligible for this offer.



No brother law and I got offered the package to return. But unlike the potential new owners version we did have a few things we couldn't /had to do.

1. Attend a presentation, this was required or we pay full price for each day.
2. We couldn't book the following weeks. Christmas, New Years, Presidents' Day, 4th of July and thanksgiving.

My friends who got their package do not have to do any of the above. They will get the credit if they go to presentation. And they get to book almost any time with no blackout dates as long as its available.

I have also received the $2900 package for 2 bedroom for 1 week with 70,000 or so spg points.  Both times, but turned it down.


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## DeniseM (Oct 2, 2017)

Thanks for clarifying - I was talking about the 5 day preview pkgs with a car - sorry for the confusion.


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## remowidget (Oct 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Thanks for clarifying - I was talking about the 5 day preview pkgs with a car - sorry for the confusion.


They try to get owners to give friends contact info to make these offers. I think you can probably make referals from the Vistana website. We would then get Star Options, I think, if you buy. To us this is kind of a slap in the face, because we aren't eligible.

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## DeniseM (Oct 2, 2017)

You just get StarPoints - not Staroptions.


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## ValleyGirl (Oct 3, 2017)

r1lee said:


> Really? I always thought the Explorer package was the cheap package they offer back to owners to revisit the resort and the ones shared with potential new owners.
> 
> This was at lagunamar.
> 
> ...



They offer it as a last resort after you have said NO 5 times!


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## momofthreeplusone (Oct 4, 2017)

momofthreeplusone said:


> No staroptions, but they did offer 5,000 starpoints


Oops, it was 50,000 starpoints, but still I didn't think it was a cost effective deal, especially for a studio.
We did do their introductory package at the Sheraton Kauai with the car and 5,000 air miles on Hawaiian airlines; that's how we ended up in the sales presentation for Nanea. Didn't know it was a timeshare thing until the lady at the car rental counter turned us on to the fact that we had signed up for a timeshare presentation. Even with the sales presentation, I do think their intro package is a good deal. Especially when you consider that I learned about the resale market after that trip  The sales guys were not pressuring at all, and, as I mentioned in my first post, we almost went for the explorer package at the end. Got home, learned about TUG, and cancelled it. My only regret is that the "90 minute" presentation killed about three hours of my beach time. All said, we had a lovely week and got a few nice freebies out of the deal, including a $100 dinner with a nice bottle of wine, the airmiles, and a couple other coupons that we used while on Kauai. And my interest in a timeshare is still very high; I think it could be a great way for us to vacation more regularly. But the very best thing that came out of our experience is that now I know about TUG and will definitely not be buying a timeshare from a developer, ever.


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## zjhasan1976 (Oct 4, 2017)

Question - I know that for resale, you can't convert Star Options into Star Points.  Also, Star Options don't transfer.   However, do accumulated Star Points from the previous owner transfer on the sale?


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## VacationForever (Oct 4, 2017)

zjhasan1976 said:


> Question - I know that for resale, you can't convert Star Options into Star Points.  Also, Star Options don't transfer.   However, do accumulated Star Points from the previous owner transfer on the sale?


Starpoints belong to the person.  Separate from timeshare.  The seller does not lose their accumulated Starpoints.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 4, 2017)

zjhasan1976 said:


> Question - I know that for resale, you can't convert Star Options into Star Points.  Also, Star Options don't transfer.   However, do accumulated Star Points from the previous owner transfer on the sale?


To clarify, you can't convert StarOptions in to Starpoints at all, regardless if it is resale or developer. You can convert your home ownership week in to Starpoints. Previously accumulated Starpoints are the property of the prior owner in their SPG account and don't transfer. Any banked StarOptions also do not transfer.


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## ValleyGirl (Oct 4, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> To clarify, you can't convert StarOptions in to Starpoints at all, regardless if it is resale or developer. You can convert your home ownership week in to Starpoints. Previously accumulated Starpoints are the property of the prior owner in their SPG account and don't transfer. Any banked StarOptions also do not transfer.



Au Contraire




A developer purchase or a re-qualified resale will have SO's that can be converted to SPs
https://www.vistana.com/ownership101#spg_conversion


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## VacationForever (Oct 4, 2017)

The nuance is that a developer week, Flex points or requalified resale can convert to Starpoints.


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## DeniseM (Oct 5, 2017)

> A developer purchase or a re-qualified resale will *have SO's that can be converted to SPs*



_Staroptions_ cannot be converted to StarPoints.  You have to convert a full week of usage to StarPoints.  StarOptions are not involved in the conversion.

Let's say I own a two bedroom lock-off:

-I can convert the studio side to Starpoints
-I can convert the 1 bdm. side to Starpoints
-I can convert the entire 2 bdm. to Starpoints

Let's say I have 600 Staroptions leftover:

I cannot convert them to Starpoints, because you can only convert a full week of ownership usage.


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## PhylisD (Oct 7, 2017)

DavidnRobin said:


> and... if you are going to buy from VSE, then you should buy resale first to requalify into VSN (maximizing SO value).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the explorer package is much more expensive in Maui. In Kaui just last week they offered us the package for $1875 where in Maui the week before they offered us the package for around $2700


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## 47vampire (Oct 10, 2017)

remowidget said:


> Good point. There is another great use of SPG points for air. You can trade 90k SPG points to Marriott, making 270k Marriott points. That will buy you a category 5 fly and stay package, which for us was 7 nights in a category 5 Marriott hotel and 120k Southwest points. A round trip ticket from Portland Oregon to Cancun is about 25k Southwest points.
> 
> So, for a little more than a Platinum plus lock off week, you can get 7 nights in a Marriott and almost $2500 worth of flights.
> 
> Marriott offers other categories and airlines as well.



Thanks for the idea.  I only recently moved some points from SPG to Marriott and I will look at the travel packages.  I had found a couple of Marriott hotel and flights I liked last year but had never thought about moving it around.


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## DavidnRobin (May 8, 2018)

astjohn said:


> Hi- I’m about a year and a half late for this thread but any advice for someone who is considering a resale purchase at the Westin Princeville in kaui that doesn’t come with star options. What exactly does this mean? Can I still trade at other affiliated properties? What are the downsides of not having the options?



I own WPORV, and even bought an EOY odd preconstruction from SVO (now VSE) knowing and already owning resale WKORV, WSJ-VGV, and WKV. A classic thread from 2007.

Buy WPORV to use (resale), and not to exchange, and if prime villa location is important by getting a top timestamp by reserving exactly when reservation window opens (meaning being able to plan 12 months in advance).

This is what I do - and have been extremely happy (since 2009).  Almost bought a fix/fix (and traded in my EOY Float), but the 10%+10% was too much. Also, I do not like the studio (Q bed...) - so I use studio for 6 nites in 1 Bd (using SOs at 8 months as an adjacent stay).  Or, have friends come along. Advantage of buying from VSE (but not worth the cost).

Otherwise - pass. MFs are too high and can exchange into relatively easy by buying WKV or SVV resale (but won’t get a prime location most likely).

Good luck.
Others here tend to disagree with me about owning WPORV.  But, with caveats above, it is a great resort and certainly a fabulous location.


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## DeniseM (May 8, 2018)

Dave - you responded to a duplicate post, at the same time I was deleting the post, so that's why the original post disappeared.  For some reason the link to move your answer is not there - maybe because I deleted the post you responded to, so I am going to move it using cut and paste:  https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/questions-on-a-westin-resale-purchase.273685/


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