# Weakening of Standard Traditional HGVC Ownership by HGV



## Tamaradarann (Nov 12, 2022)

I have been thinking about the effect HGV has on the Standard Tradional HGVC Ownership.  Since HGVC owners can't reserve in HGV properties there is no benefit without opting into HGV.  However, now HGVC Owners need to step up their game and plan and reserve between 6-9 months out to assure they will be able to get the resorts they want when the want them even at the less sought after properties.  If I understand the new system correctly at the 6 month mark all of the HGV members who don't own at HGVC resorts will be able to reserve at HGVC resorts.  So if a Standard Traditional HGVC owner wants to reserve a relatively last minute vacation at a less sought after resort 1 or 2 months out the availability may now be gone!


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## HuskerATL (Nov 12, 2022)

HVC. HGV is the overarching company but you are right. There will be more competition for HGVC within the 6 month window


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I have been thinking about the effect HGV has on the Standard Tradional HGVC Ownership.  Since HGVC owners can't reserve in HGV properties there is no benefit without opting into HGV.  However, now HGVC Owners need to step up their game and plan and reserve between 6-9 months out to assure they will be able to get the resorts they want when the want them even at the less sought after properties.  If I understand the new system correctly at the 6 month mark all of the HGV members who don't own at HGVC resorts will be able to reserve at HGVC resorts.  So if a Standard Traditional HGVC owner wants to reserve a relatively last minute vacation at a less sought after resort 1 or 2 months out the availability may now be gone!



You are correct. But that only applies to HVC/DRI MAX members not the entire HVC/DRI base. Based on their 3Q  earnings call that is < 50,000 members (50,000 MAX sold - HGVC MAX = DRI MAX owners at 6 months).

Assuming 35,000 of those 50,000 MAX sold are DRI MAX and assuming approx. 275,000 HGVC members, then that is almost a 13% infiltration to HGVC to date and rising. Given HVC average points are 20k and HGVC likely 11,500, there will be an impact on 6 month availability and OS.

For us, I don't think there will be much action for HGVC into HVC unless you live on the east coast and want some of the Virginia Beach properties etc. We have a few HVC properties that interest us (Hawaii, Cabo, Sedona) but not enough regular visits to make it cost effective for MAX vs. renting/trading RCI/II HVC or renting/trading II at competitors in same location which we know are renovated e.g. MVC/Vistana/Hyatt (preferable).


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 12, 2022)

Well there is a point deficite, it does cost a lot of what was traditional DRI points to book into an HGVC.  So just because they can, doesn't mean they will to the degree that ALL HGVC inventory will be gone at the 6 month mark. 

Sure it will have some impacts, but take everything NO, take Hawaii or other limited availablility options Yes, that will likely have an higher impact on demand.  Only time will tell how it all shakes out.


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## escanoe (Nov 12, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> So just because they can, doesn't mean they will to the degree that ALL HGVC inventory will be gone at the 6 month mark.



It is also a two way street. Just as HVC/DRI folks coming into HGVC take inventory, the HGVCers using their points in HVC/DRI free up more inventory.

We don’t really know what the net impact will be. We also do not know to what extent Max will function like an exchange, where things must balance out … there may be some reasons they need to operate it in that manner to preserve integrity.


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## Frankly-Frankie (Nov 12, 2022)

As someone just considering buying a HGVC TS, I have to say that the HGV and Max issues are head-spinningly complticated for a newbie and rather off-putting.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 12, 2022)

escanoe said:


> It is also a two way street. Just as HVC/DRI folks coming into HGVC take inventory, the HGVCers using this points in HVC/DRI free up more inventory.
> 
> We don’t really know what the net impact will be. We also do not know to what extent Max will function like an exchange, where things must balance out … there may be some reasons they need to operate it in that manner to preserve integrity.



I'm extremely skeptical that this will end up balancing. If one side or the other never has trades unavailable then you know either it balances exactly or they aren't worrying about it. And after they charged for Max I doubt they are going to shut off one side from trades. Doesn't seem likely that they got the points ratio exactly right for a perfect balance - especially since many of the most desirable Diamond properties (embarc) were already separate.


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## GT75 (Nov 12, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> especially since many of the most desirable Diamond properties (embarc) were already separate.


But we know that former CI/Embarc will be (are) on the HGVC.    We now have heard that they will trade in HGVC side also.    What we don't know is how they will trade.    Hopefully, it will be an exchange similar to what we had prior to 2016 timeframe.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 12, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> You are correct. But that only applies to HVC/DRI MAX members not the entire HVC/DRI base. Based on their 3Q  earnings call that is < 50,000 members (50,000 MAX sold - HGVC MAX = DRI MAX owners at 6 months).
> 
> Assuming 35,000 of those 50,000 MAX sold are DRI MAX and assuming approx. 275,000 HGVC members, then that is almost a 13% infiltration to HGVC to date and rising. Given HVC average points are 20k and HGVC likely 11,500, there will be an impact on 6 month availability and OS.
> 
> For us, I don't think there will be much action for HGVC into HVC unless you live on the east coast and want some of the Virginia Beach properties etc. We have a few HVC properties that interest us (Hawaii, Cabo, Sedona) but not enough regular visits to make it cost effective for MAX vs. renting/trading RCI/II HVC or renting/trading II at competitors in same location which we know are renovated e.g. MVC/Vistana/Hyatt (preferable).



I thought that ALL HVC members could book HGVC properties at 6 months, but HVC MAX Members have special 10 month waiting for 9 month kickoff reservation deal!!


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## GT75 (Nov 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I thought that ALL HVC members could book HGVC properties at 6 months


*NO,* only HVC members who upgraded to Max will be able to book on HGVC side at 6-month mark.



Tamaradarann said:


> but HVC MAX Members have special 10 month waiting for 9 month kickoff reservation deal!!


I think that you are referring to the Loyalty Search request feature.   Honestly, we still don't know how that feature is going to work.    I have a call this past week with HGVC corporate sales.    The salesperson couldn't explain the details.    She said that she would get back to me.    She did say that this feature was expected to be implemented soon.  Wow, it is unbelievable to me how this isn't known.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 12, 2022)

GT75 said:


> But we know that former CI/Embarc will be (are) on the HGVC.    We now have heard that they will trade in HGVC side also.    What we don't know is how they will trade.    Hopefully, it will be an exchange similar to what we had prior to 2016 timeframe.



I think embarc/HGVC could have a reciprocal exchange without issue, because the properties are more similar. I think it would benefit both sides if embarc and hgvc had 9 month access to each others inventory, but the management will want to charge a fee for that so some sort of Max arrangement seems likely.

So far I believe all we know is that the embarc properties are getting the HGVC name, which is really just an acknowledgement of their quality. 

I dont believe they are bookable in Max yet are they?


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 12, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> I think embarc/HGVC could have a reciprocal exchange without issue, because the properties are more similar. I think it would benefit both sides if embarc and hgvc had 9 month access to each others inventory, but the management will want to charge a fee for that so some sort of Max arrangement seems likely.
> 
> So far I believe all we know is that the embarc properties are getting the HGVC name, which is really just an acknowledgement of their quality.
> 
> I dont believe they are bookable in Max yet are they?



The Embarc properties are not bookable in MAX, and may not be for some time, if ever.  I don't understand it, but there is a legal issue with the Embarc governing documents that prevent cross bookings.  That has been reported by Embarc members on Tug, and acknowledge in the FAQ on the HGVC website.  It would be great if they become bookable for HGV members, but i am not holding my breath.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> HVC MAX Members have special 10 month waiting for 9 month kickoff reservation deal!!


According to the corporate call that I had, HVC Max folks, using the loyalty search tool will only be able to reserve at the 6 month window. The 10 month discussion is for a HGVC Max person reserving in HGVC.  They can submit at 10 months but it would not book until the 9 month club reservation window opens. They can't use it to book during the Homeweek window.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 12, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> The Embarc properties are not bookable in MAX, and may not be for some time, if ever.  I don't understand it, but there is a legal issue with the Embarc governing documents that prevent cross bookings.  That has been reported by Embarc members on Tug, and acknowledge in the FAQ on the HGVC website.  It would be great if they become bookable for HGV members, but i am not holding my breath.


According to the corporate guy, they will be bookable in HGVC like the others


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 12, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> According to the corporate guy, they will be bookable in HGVC like the others



I hope he is correct,  the FAQ does not say never, it just says they are not part of the program at this time:


*If I join HGV Max, will I have access to the Embarc Collection?*
We’re reviewing how to expand HGV Max to include Embarc Collection properties. At this time, Embarc Collection properties are not part of the HGV Max program.


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## GT75 (Nov 12, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> *If I join HGV Max, will I have access to the Embarc Collection?*
> We’re reviewing how to expand HGV Max to include Embarc Collection properties. At this time, Embarc Collection properties are not part of the HGV Max program.


Yes, that is Max.     I was also told by HGVC corporate sales, that Embarc since it was being branded HGVC, would be available to legacy HGVC.    *Now, what we don't know is how that exchange will work.*   Now, I don't think that the corporate salesperson was lying because I said, there is no reason for me to purchase Max if I will have access to CI/Embarc.    Again, who knows, until it is officially announced.     I was also told that any future properties added to HGVC, Legacy HGVC members would have access to also.

I think the key takeaway for me is, let's wait to see when Max is fully rolled-out when we can evaluate all of the official rules.    I will not believe anything (*including what I have just reported above*) until I see it in official written form.   Personally, I am so glad that I am waiting.    The more that I learn about Max, the more negatives that I am finding.


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## Zenichiro (Nov 12, 2022)

GT75 said:


> Yes, that is Max.     I was also told by HGVC corporate sales, that Embarc since it was being branded HGVC, would be available to legacy HGVC.    *Now, what we don't know is how that exchange will work.*   Now, I don't think that the corporate salesperson was lying because I said, there is no reason for me to purchase Max if I will have access to CI/Embarc.    Again, who knows, until it is officially announced.     I was also told that any future properties added to HGVC, Legacy HGVC members would have access to also.
> 
> I think the key takeaway for me is, let's wait to see when Max is fully rolled-out when we can evaluate all of the official rules.    I will not believe anything (*including what I have just reported above*) until I see it in official written form.   Personally, I am so glad that I am waiting.    The more that I learn about Max, the more negatives that I am finding.


Strange, I have never seen anything in writing that Embarc would be available to HGVC Legacy members. However I have seen it mentioned that it would be for Max. Though still obscure


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 12, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> According to the corporate call that I had, HVC Max folks, using the loyalty search tool will only be able to reserve at the 6 month window. The 10 month discussion is for a HGVC Max person reserving in HGVC.  They can submit at 10 months but it would not book until the 9 month club reservation window opens. They can't use it to book during the Homeweek window.



Wow so are you saying that someone that is in HVC Max person will really only have the same rights to book at the 6 month window as a regular HVC person, just a little help with the loyalty search tool?

However, an HGVC Max person can use the loyalty search tool to be able to get a little help with the loyalty search tool at 10 months to book at 9 months?  That is not how I understood it, but I like it since it gives an HVC person who does NOT own in HGVC less power.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 12, 2022)

Zenichiro said:


> Strange, I have never seen anything in writing that Embarc would be available to HGVC Legacy members. However I have seen it mentioned that it would be for Max. Though still obscure


They have been rebranded HGVC so, if the corporate guy is correct, they would act the same as other HGVC and available at the 6 month mark for Max.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Wow so are you saying that someone that is in HVC Max person will really only have the same rights to book at the 6 month window as a regular HVC person, just a little help with the loyalty search tool?
> 
> However, an HGVC Max person can use the loyalty search tool to be able to get a little help with the loyalty search tool at 10 months to book at 9 months?  That is not how I understood it, but I like it since it gives an HVC person who does NOT own in HGVC less power.


So, first HVC owners don't get any access to HGVC unless they are in Max and they get access at 6 months.The same for HGVC members into HVC. So, the Legacy search request would allow either side to have the longer search in their respective side but, when searching and booking in the other side, it is only 6 months


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 13, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> So, first HVC owners don't get any access to HGVC unless they are in Max and they get access at 6 months.The same for HGVC members into HVC. So, the Legacy search request would allow either side to have the longer search in their respective side but, when searching and booking in the other side, it is only 6 months



OK, so refresh my memory how do get into HVC and how much does it cost, and how do you get into HVC Max and how much does it cost?  Also, why would a non-HGVC member buy into plain HVC if they don't get access to HGVC?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 13, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> OK, so refresh my memory how do get into HVC and how much does it cost, and how do you get into HVC Max and how much does it cost?  Also, why would a non-HGVC member buy into plain HVC if they don't get access to HGVC?


All new people buying into HGVC are automatically in Max. I assume the same is true for DRI/HVC.

An existing HGVC/bHC owner can upgrade a resale deed to retail to get into Max, upgrade an existing retail deed, or buy a new deed. There is also supposed to be a $7k ala carte option at some point.


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## Shmiddy (Nov 14, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> According to the corporate call that I had, HVC Max folks, using the loyalty search tool will only be able to reserve at the 6 month window. The 10 month discussion is for a HGVC Max person reserving in HGVC.  They can submit at 10 months but it would not book until the 9 month club reservation window opens. They can't use it to book during the Homeweek window.


If you are HGVC Elite or above and upgrade to MAX, you can reserve in the MAX inventory 10 months out - that is what was explained to us at our last update (two weeks ago). We declined to upgrade, feel like HGVC keeps dangling incentives to upgrade, then comes up with a NEW program that you need to buy into later to get the benefits you supposedly purchased earlier. We saw multiple people at the resort that were considering buying from Hilton direct and I told them all - buy RESALE.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

If you join Max, you are no longer elite. You will be whatever tier level your Max eligible points make you. Increases in Tier levels give you more searches but not a different window.


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## singlemalt_18 (Nov 14, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> If you join Max, you are no longer elite. You will be whatever tier level your Max eligible points make you. Increases in Tier levels give you more searches but not a different window.



FWIW - In a recent conversation with a 20 year Hilton Rep, he explained that in terms of "inventory management", they close each year in June to assess for the coming 12 months. He also explained that the current 6 month booking window for MAX is temporary, and only expected to be in effect for the coming year or so, so as not to create unnecessary chaos in the merging of the two platforms. They did not want folks on either side to have issues with their normal or customary bookings. They fully expect to restore conventional booking window parameters for ALL MAX members once initial dust settles and they have a clearer picture of inventory.

Regarding inventory in the new combined platform, the Rep said that unlike the typical industry practice of NOT pursuing defaults because of the inefficiencies and costs associated with such actions, Hilton has every intention to claw back every bit of inventory they can find either in default or with questionable titles. (Pursuing collections is not the same as reclaiming title.) It was a very interesting conversation, and I believe Hilton is in this for keeps, playing the long game. I also believe that going forward, those in MAX will see the most value from their ownership.

Let the disagreement begin!


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## Talent312 (Nov 14, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> Let the disagreement begin!



Umm... you're a bit late to the party on that count.
Some here are totally enthusiastic about Max;
others see the $$/benefit ratio as out of whack.
.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> He also explained that the current 6 month booking window for MAX is temporary, and only expected to be in effect for the coming year or so, so as not to create unnecessary chaos in the merging of the two platforms. They did not want folks on either side to have issues with their normal or customary bookings. They fully expect to restore conventional booking window parameters for ALL MAX members once initial dust settles and they have a clearer picture of inventory.


I don't buy this at all.  Straight from their FAQs: *An Expanded Portfolio of Properties *that features a new HGV Max Reservation Window starting six months before check-out.  

The homeweek (9 to 12) months is protected so that will never be changed.  The 6 to 9 month window between club reservations and Max could change but I doubt it.  I am learning that none of the sales people really know what they are talking about. I have also talked to 20+ year corporate folks and buy about half of what they say.  They tell you what they think they know but we are all learning that HGV is flying by the seat of their pants right now and don't have any rules set up other than the few they have posted. When they have a HGVC Max guide in writing, then we will know.


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## brp (Nov 14, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> They fully expect to restore conventional booking window parameters for ALL MAX members once initial dust settles and they have a clearer picture of inventory.



Just to confirm what is meant by "conventional booking window parameters" in this context: Once this takes place, ALL MAX members will be able to book HGVC properties at 9 months (just like HGVC-only folks) and DRI properties at (I think) 13 months (like DRI-only members?

Cheers.


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## GT75 (Nov 14, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> FWIW - In a recent conversation with a 20 year Hilton Rep,


Was this a 20-year Hilton salesperson?


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## dougp26364 (Nov 16, 2022)

Keep in mind that, for HVC (formerly DRI) members to have access, they have to spend thousands of dollars upgrading their ownership AND opt into MAX. The same is true of HVC owners worried HGVC members will be poaching all their inventory.

I really don’t think it’s going to be much of an issue for the next several years.


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## terces (Nov 16, 2022)

GT75 said:


> But we know that former CI/Embarc will be (are) on the HGVC.    We now have heard that they will trade in HGVC side also.    What we don't know is how they will trade.    Hopefully, it will be an exchange similar to what we had prior to 2016 timeframe.


They are being rebranded with words like HGVC Palm Desert.  With all the greed that has gone on, I can't imagine that they will let legacy HGVC book into Embarc and vis a versa, without charging some big fat fee.  I would be ecstatic if that were the case, but skeptical.  And they have discriminated against resale owners so far.


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## Nowaker (Nov 17, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> Hilton has every intention to claw back every bit of inventory they can find either in default or with questionable titles



Tell it to my $0 purchase of Blvd 2 BR Gold 8k pts. They didn't claw it back. It must be worth less than $0 to them that they waived ROFR.

Sales speak as usual. Don't trust salespeople.


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## pedro47 (Nov 17, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind that, for HVC (formerly DRI) members to have access, they have to spend thousands of dollars upgrading their ownership AND opt into MAX. The same is true of HVC owners worried HGVC members will be poaching all their inventory.
> 
> I really don’t think it’s going to be much of an issue for the next several years.


I feel the only resort area that may have some issues are the resorts in Hawaii. That is why I feel Hilton is building a new high-rise resort in Hawaii. IMHO
It is all about money and profit.


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## dayooper (Nov 17, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> FWIW - In a recent conversation with a 20 year Hilton Rep, he explained that in terms of "inventory management", they close each year in June to assess for the coming 12 months. He also explained that the current 6 month booking window for MAX is temporary, and only expected to be in effect for the coming year or so, so as not to create unnecessary chaos in the merging of the two platforms. They did not want folks on either side to have issues with their normal or customary bookings. They fully expect to restore conventional booking window parameters for ALL MAX members once initial dust settles and they have a clearer picture of inventory.



This statement makes no sense to me. Are Max HGVC Max owners only allowed to book at 6 months on the HGVC side? Are HVC Max owners only allowed to book at 6 months on the HVC/DRI side? I don't believe that is true so owners already can book at their conventional booking window. What the salesman said was so vague in their explanation on what constitutes the conventional booking window. Think about it, what is the booking window for a DRI member? It's either 13 months or 10 months. Will a HVC Max member be able to book HGVC resorts at 13 or 10 months? If so, why would I buy Max from the HGVC side. It would be way more prudent to purchase from the HVC/DRI side as I would get any club booking I want. I suppose that HVC/DRI Max members could be allowed to book HGVC at 9 months and HGVC Max to book HVC at 10 months. If that's the case then bring it on! Only about 10% of Max memberships are from the DRI side so if HGVC Max members are booking HVC at 10 months, that leaves more for me at 9 months! Merging platforms? Not sure how that's going to happen. The rules for the DRI trust and HGVC deeds are not only different, but they are also listed into deeds and the trust charter. It's one of the reasons why Max is an exchange platform between the two systems. They just aren't compatible.

IMO, this is just a very good 20 year sales rep using carefully chosen words to convince you that drastic changes are coming in the booking timeframe when they aren't (or at least not drastic changes) to convince people to purchase now. To be in the HGVC timeshare sales department 20 years, you have to be very good and choose your words properly to not outright lie, but mask what is actually happening so you can twist it to your advantage. Honestly, I would be very wary of any timeshare salesman that has lasted in the business for 20 years. That tells me that they are very adapt in telling the victim . . . errr . . . potential buyer what they want to hear to make a sale. They know what to tell and what to hide and word their conversation to skew the balance of power in their direction.



singlemalt_18 said:


> Regarding inventory in the new combined platform, the Rep said that unlike the typical industry practice of NOT pursuing defaults because of the inefficiencies and costs associated with such actions, Hilton has every intention to claw back every bit of inventory they can find either in default or with questionable titles. (Pursuing collections is not the same as reclaiming title.) It was a very interesting conversation, and I believe Hilton is in this for keeps, playing the long game. I also believe that going forward, those in MAX will see the most value from their ownership.



So if it's expensive to reclaim deeds, why don't they reclaim the deeds the easy way, ROFR. The amount of non South Carolina deeds that have had ROFR exercised has been almost nothing. I would think that if they were clawing back every bit of inventory they can, ROFR would be high on the list. I'm not saying they aren't only reclaiming deeds, but they have quite a bit of inventory already and ROFR is a great way to get back inventory while keeping resale prices hi.

I guess I have a hard time believing anything a timeshare salesman might say. The amount these deeds cost is astronomical and they have to convince most people to make the deal. The statements that are reported here on TUG on what salesman say are unreal. Here are some of the whoppers that I have been reported here:


HGVC going to an all points program
Resale deeds will only be able to be used at the resorts, no club or RCI exchanges
Resorts going to be in Max that were never announced (one even created a flyer with the HGVC letterhead stating the resort would be in Max and even gave a date)
Price increases per point in a week, month or even tomorrow (doesn't matter the time, there's always a price increase around the corner)
If you buy now, you will get in before they change the program
Buy now so you will get the best MF's
There will be 3 or 4 new properties in Chicago (that's from a friend not on Tug)
All of the new locations that they will have with new property builds
These have all been said in the last 9 months and not one has come to fruition. All of us here love to see what's instore for the program. It's why we converse and debate every little nugget of information we can. Salesman seem to be the biggest source of "info" we have. Yet a good salesman will listen to what your questions are and use that to attack your will to not purchase. They are just a wee bit biased. Don't get me wrong, my family and I truly enjoy the vacations we take and our ownership has allowed us to take vacations we couldn't normally take. My whole family loves the system and look forward to the trips we take. That being said, we do not go to any sales presentations as it's a waste of our time. Our vacation is too important for their trinkets and anything they have to say about the future of HGVC I wouldn't believe anyway. Do I think that HGVC is Max for the "long haul?" Yes, I do, but that doesn't mean that they will change the system completely around and go against trust charters and deeded rights.


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## Duh (Nov 21, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> All new people buying into HGVC are automatically in Max. I assume the same is true for DRI/HVC.



Yes. All Diamond sales since 04 April 2022 have been in HGV Max.


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## Duh (Nov 21, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> Regarding inventory in the new combined platform, the Rep said that unlike the typical industry practice of NOT pursuing defaults because of the inefficiencies and costs associated with such actions, Hilton has every intention to claw back every bit of inventory they can find either in default or with questionable titles. (Pursuing collections is not the same as reclaiming title.) It was a very interesting conversation, and I believe Hilton is in this for keeps, playing the long game. I also believe that going forward, those in MAX will see the most value from their ownership.
> 
> Let the disagreement begin!



So why doesn't Hilton just create a buyback program if they are so desperate for inventory? Or even a take back that costs the owner no money??


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## Duh (Nov 21, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind that, for HVC (formerly DRI) members to have access, they have to spend thousands of dollars upgrading their ownership AND opt into MAX. The same is true of HVC owners worried HGVC members will be poaching all their inventory.
> 
> I really don’t think it’s going to be much of an issue for the next several years.



TENS of thousands, not just thousands.
Since 04 April, 2022, there is no more opting into HVC Max. The only opt in period for sales for Diamond owners was between 14 January 2022 and 03 April 2022.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 21, 2022)

I started off this thread with the following assertion:   HGVC Owners need to step up their game and plan and reserve between 6-9 months out to assure they will be able to get the resorts they want when the want them even at the less sought after properties. If I understand the new system correctly at the 6 month mark all of the HVC members who don't own at HGVC resorts will be able to reserve at HGVC resorts. So if a Traditional HGVC owner wants to reserve a relatively last minute vacation at a less sought after resort 1 or 2 months out the availability may now be gone!  

So is this assertion correct and doesn't the implementation of HVC reduce the traditional HGVC members reserve options?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 21, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I started off this thread with the following assertion:   HGVC Owners need to step up their game and plan and reserve between 6-9 months out to assure they will be able to get the resorts they want when the want them even at the less sought after properties. If I understand the new system correctly at the 6 month mark all of the HVC members who don't own at HGVC resorts will be able to reserve at HGVC resorts. So if a Traditional HGVC owner wants to reserve a relatively last minute vacation at a less sought after resort 1 or 2 months out the availability may now be gone!
> 
> So is this assertion correct and doesn't the implementation of HVC reduce the traditional HGVC members reserve options?


Yes there will be HVC folks competing for rooms at the 6 month mark or less but we don't know the full impact yet.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 21, 2022)

Duh said:


> TENS of thousands, not just thousands.
> Since 04 April, 2022, there is no more opting into HVC Max. The only opt in period for sales for Diamond owners was between 14 January 2022 and 03 April 2022.



for that price, it will be a LONG time before either DRI owners or HGVC owners have to worry about shifting inventory.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 21, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Yes there will be HVC folks competing for rooms at the 6 month mark or less but we don't know the full impact yet.



OK, well if the rules allow for HVC members to book rooms at the 6 month mark the degree of impact will be a function of how many DRI members buy into HVC.  From what I understand not that many DRI members have converted to date.  That could change and make a major difference.

Previous to 2020 I usually would book my HGVC reservations at the 9 month mark to get what I wanted in the very sought after Hilton Hawaiian Village.  However, now that I own a Condo in Honolulu that is not necessary but I am interested in being able to use my points to book reservations at other HGVC resorts when I want particularly in Vegas, Hawaii Island, and Maui.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 21, 2022)

My understanding is that the HVC side can't book the HGVC side yet and rumors are the first part of 2023 so, if that is true, then we will find out how much the summer books up.


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## drucifer (Nov 21, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Yes there will be HVC folks competing for rooms at the 6 month mark or less but we don't know the full impact yet.



I'd argue that Diamond owners probably are in worse shape on this than HGVC owners. Why? Because Diamond weeks are generally fewer points for the same accommodation type. e.g. a Diamond 2 BR Platinum season owner would have to either drop to a 1BR or down to likely Silver season due to the points they have.

Diamond days/weeks look like a bargain deal to an HGVC owner. HGVC days/weeks look expensive to a Diamond owner. I think you will likely have more HGVC owners looking to stretch their points with Diamond stays than Diamond owners borrowing points or making other compromises to swing a higher points/day HGVC stay.

My 0.02


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 21, 2022)

drucifer said:


> I'd argue that Diamond owners probably are in worse shape on this than HGVC owners. Why? Because Diamond weeks are generally fewer points for the same accommodation type. e.g. a Diamond 2 BR Platinum season owner would have to either drop to a 1BR or down to likely Silver season due to the points they have.
> 
> Diamond days/weeks look like a bargain deal to an HGVC owner. HGVC days/weeks look expensive to a Diamond owner. I think you will likely have more HGVC owners looking to stretch their points with Diamond stays than Diamond owners borrowing points or making other compromises to swing a higher points/day HGVC stay.
> 
> My 0.02



Where do you see this? For the HVC resorts that interest us, they are more points than HGVC during peak season.


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## drucifer (Nov 22, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Where do you see this? For the HVC resorts that interest us, they are more points than HGVC during peak season.


Interesting.  The ones I want to visit are all turning up to be fewer points.  Sapphire, NC, is the first one I'd plan to go to since my daughter goes to summer camp nearby.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> My understanding is that the HVC side can't book the HGVC side yet and rumors are the first part of 2023 so, if that is true, then we will find out how much the summer books up.



That is incorrect. On the site I run, there have been several Diamond owners who have upgraded to HGV Max and have already made reservations at HGVC resorts for 2023.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Where do you see this? For the HVC resorts that interest us, they are more points than HGVC during peak season.



The problem is that you are only looking at 2 or 3 of the most expensive Diamond resorts (Cabo and KBC if I remember correctly from our previous conversations) when you compare point costs. Check out the whole collection and you will see most HGVC resorts are around 25% or more higher in point costs than a Diamond resort.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> That is incorrect. On the site I run, there have been several Diamond owners who have upgraded to HGV Max and have already made reservations at HGVC resorts for 2023.


Interesting, because other DRI Max folks have said they don't.


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## pedro47 (Nov 28, 2022)

How can these Diamond owners who have upgrade to HGV Max make reservations for 2023?
When Hilton have not released THE CLUB FEES for 2023  ?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> The problem is that you are only looking at 2 or 3 of the most expensive Diamond resorts (Cabo and KBC if I remember correctly from our previous conversations) when you compare point costs. Check out the whole collection and you will see most HGVC resorts are around 25% or more higher in point costs than a Diamond resort.



Many HGVC owners don't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive unless HVC significantly upgrades. Why would one consistently trade HGVC Mercedes resorts to stay at a Chevy HVC resort?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 28, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> How can these Diamond owners who have upgrade to HGV Max make reservations for 2023?
> When Hilton have not released THE CLUB FEES for 2023  ?


They did.  The Max fee went up $10, if I remember correctly from $281 to $291.


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## dayooper (Nov 28, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Many HGVC owners don't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive unless HVC significantly upgrades. Why would one consistently trade HGVC Mercedes resorts to stay at a Chevy HVC resort?



Eh, I think there will be a rush to book HVC as so many HGVC members want new locations. Tahoe, Sedona, Williamsburg, Outer Banks of NC and the Hawaii resorts are on many wish lists. Whether they will be available or not is another question. I also believe that many will book new places just because they are new places. I‘m not sure the rush will last, but I think it will be there in the beginning.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 28, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Eh, I think there will be a rush to book HVC as so many HGVC members want new locations. Tahoe, Sedona, Williamsburg, Outer Banks of NC and the Hawaii resorts are on many wish lists. Whether they will be available or not is another question. I also believe that many will book new places just because they are new places. I‘m not sure the rush will last, but I think it will be there in the beginning.



My key word was "consistently." We don't live near the east coast so the beaches, Williamsburg and Florida are too far. Can stay at HGVC resorts in Cabo, Vegas and Hawaii. Would rather rent at the Hyatt in Sedona, or use HGVC points at the Hilton hotel where we get free breakfast as an elite instead of Sedona HGV with unrenovated pink sinks no matter how many points I save. We work so our vacation time is limited.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Interesting, because other DRI Max folks have said they don't.



They don't have access to HGVC resorts or they just haven't made a reservation yet?


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> How can these Diamond owners who have upgrade to HGV Max make reservations for 2023?
> When Hilton have not released THE CLUB FEES for 2023  ?



What does the Club Fee have to do with making a reservation? I have already made 140 nights of reservations from Jan to Nov 2023 with my Diamond points (in Diamond of course as I refuse to upgrade (downgrade) to Max)?

Here is a quote from one lady posted yesterday (name removed)....."We said “yes” and will be enjoying our 1st stay using a HGVC property in NYC after New Years. If you want to travel to properties under HGVC and such travel works for you even w/changes in some benefits, then worth the consideration. If you need help, … See more".

And here is another post about the same resort (NYC West 57th)...."I am booked there also in April. Curious to see what it is like as a Diamond owner converted to HGV MAX.".

And another although she didn't mention which resort she booked...."I’m happy with mine. I can’t get into my favorite HVC/DRI properties early next year cuz I waited too long- I knew better- so I booked HGVC. That was one of my main reasons for going MAX & it’s already paid off. ". This was posted 5 days ago. So it seems HGV Max owners do have the ability to book HGVC resorts.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Many HGVC owners don't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive unless HVC significantly upgrades. Why would one consistently trade HGVC Mercedes resorts to stay at a Chevy HVC resort?



Most likely because the Chevy resort is located where there isn't a Mercedes resort. And that's if you believe the hype that HGVC resorts are Mercedes resorts to begin with. Have to say, I don't. I visited the Tuscany resort in Orlando for an update a couple of months ago and while it was nice, it was no nicer than many of the Diamond resorts. Just because an HGVC owner doesn't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive doesn't mean their view is accurate. I mean, you can have any perception you want but until you check it it for yourself, it's just a perception, not a fact. Also, just how many HGVC owners have ever even visited a Diamond resort? And when a Diamond resort is 25-50% cheaper for a week than an HGVC resort, that's another good reason to check them out.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Eh, I think there will be a rush to book HVC as so many HGVC members want new locations. Tahoe, Sedona, Williamsburg, Outer Banks of NC and the Hawaii resorts are on many wish lists. Whether they will be available or not is another question. I also believe that many will book new places just because they are new places. I‘m not sure the rush will last, but I think it will be there in the beginning.



Gatlinburg is another beautiful location with a nice resort. Especially the Golf Deluxe units.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> They don't have access to HGVC resorts or they just haven't made a reservation yet?


No access to HGVC yet.


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## Duh (Nov 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> No access to HGVC yet.



I don't know the reason why. Only thing I can think of is maybe they made their qualifying purchase during the opt in timeframe and they haven't actually opted in yet.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> I don't know the reason why. Only thing I can think of is maybe they made their qualifying purchase during the opt in timeframe and they haven't actually opted in yet.


That question has been asked on the FB groups of who, in DRI Max, can book in HGVC and haven't heard anyone say they can. Only some say they can't and heard early 2023.


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## geist1223 (Nov 28, 2022)

I do not understand how the purchase of DRI and setting up of Max weakens HGVC? if you are an HGVC Member you still have access to same same Resorts and you do not have to buy into HGV Max. Though you will have to make your Reservation more than 6 months in advance. Just like a DRI Member still has access to all the same DRI Resorts and does not have to buy into Max.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> And here is another post about the same resort (NYC West 57th)...."I am booked there also in April. Curious to see what it is like as a Diamond owner converted to HGV



Something not right about this. HGVC Club reservations for West 57th only opens 60 days prior. How could this Max  poster book for April when no one else can? 

If Max is superseding HGVC club owners AND infringing upon W57 Home Resort owner deeded rights there is a big problem with MAX.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> And here is another post about the same resort (NYC West 57th)...."I am booked there also in April. Curious to see what it is like as a Diamond owner converted to HGV MAX.".


This can't be possible since HGVC owners can't even book in NYC West 57th in April yet.  Only owners in bHC can.  HGVC owners can only book out to 2/25/23 right now.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 28, 2022)

Duh said:


> Most likely because the Chevy resort is located where there isn't a Mercedes resort. And that's if you believe the hype that HGVC resorts are Mercedes resorts to begin with. Have to say, I don't. I visited the Tuscany resort in Orlando for an update a couple of months ago and while it was nice, it was no nicer than many of the Diamond resorts. Just because an HGVC owner doesn't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive doesn't mean their view is accurate. I mean, you can have any perception you want but until you check it it for yourself, it's just a perception, not a fact. Also, just how many HGVC owners have ever even visited a Diamond resort? And when a Diamond resort is 25-50% cheaper for a week than an HGVC resort, that's another good reason to check them out.


True, many have never stayed at Diamond, yet even HVC warns that the quality is not up to par at many resorts. Plus negative trip advisor reviews do not help.

Why risk my vacation when I can stay at a Hilton hotel with my HGVC points, or stay at a Hyatt or Marriott where I know the quality is good if no HGVC in  location.


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## Duh (Nov 29, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That question has been asked on the FB groups of who, in DRI Max, can book in HGVC and haven't heard anyone say they can. Only some say they can't and heard early 2023.



Well, I guess it hasn't been asked on ALL of the FB groups.


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## Duh (Nov 29, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Something not right about this. HGVC Club reservations for West 57th only opens 60 days prior. How could this Max  poster book for April when no one else can?
> 
> If Max is superseding HGVC club owners AND infringing upon W57 Home Resort owner deeded rights there is a big problem with MAX.



I don't own in Max and never will so I can't conduct my own tests. I can only report what people have reported to me and others on my site. I see no reason for someone to lie about what they have been able to book though.


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## Duh (Nov 29, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> True, many have never stayed at Diamond, yet even HVC warns that the quality is not up to par at many resorts. Plus negative trip advisor reviews do not help.
> 
> Why risk my vacation when I can stay at a Hilton hotel with my HGVC points, or stay at a Hyatt or Marriott where I know the quality is good if no HGVC in  location.



If you prefer to believe the word of people you don't know over your own eyes, that's fine. I prefer to see something with my own eyes before I pass judgement over it. As for why stay in an HVC 2 bdrm unit instead of a Hilton hotel unit, to me that's pretty obvious. Getting out of hotel rooms and into something with a full kitchen and multiple bedrooms is why I got into timesharing in the first place 34 years ago.

Trust me, it does not matter to me in the slightest how you want to spend your hard earned vacation dollars. You earned them and you can do whatever you want with them. My only issue is that you are belittling a product that you have absolutely no idea about simply because someone told you it was bad.


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## pedro47 (Nov 29, 2022)

Duh said:


> What does the Club Fee have to do with making a reservation? I have already made 140 nights of reservations from Jan to Nov 2023 with my Diamond points (in Diamond of course as I refuse to upgrade (downgrade) to Max)?
> 
> Here is a quote from one lady posted yesterday (name removed)....."We said “yes” and will be enjoying our 1st stay using a HGVC property in NYC after New Years. If you want to travel to properties under HGVC and such travel works for you even w/changes in some benefits, then worth the consideration. If you need help, … See more".
> 
> ...


So you paid Hilton Club Fees for 2023 correct and you were able to booked 140 nights of reservations for 2023. Correct.

What Diamond Resort did you owned?

How long have you been a Diamond owners?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2022)

Duh said:


> If you prefer to believe the word of people you don't know over your own eyes, that's fine. I prefer to see something with my own eyes before I pass judgement over it. As for why stay in an HVC 2 bdrm unit instead of a Hilton hotel unit, to me that's pretty obvious. Getting out of hotel rooms and into something with a full kitchen and multiple bedrooms is why I got into timesharing in the first place 34 years ago.
> 
> Trust me, it does not matter to me in the slightest how you want to spend your hard earned vacation dollars. You earned them and you can do whatever you want with them. My only issue is that you are belittling a product that you have absolutely no idea about simply because someone told you it was bad.



Of course we can always rely on Facebook users who we do not know for accurate Max booking info.

I am sure there are nice DRI resorts. As an owner you stay in the renovated wings. As a MAX or RCI exchanger there is a chance an HGV owner could be assigned to the unrenovated wing of a resort. Lower points possible but worth it? This was a terrible policy by DRI.  I have reservations to stay at two DRI/HVC resorts premium Max points units next year.  I am nervous as to whether the units will be acceptable. I have never had to worry about this with HGVC resorts.

BTW...I am willing to bet that W57 reservation was via RCI or Dex in which Max is not needed. If that poster could demonstrate a loophole with the Max booking system, then we need to know that because Max would be infringing on w57 deeded owner rights for preferential booking periods, and on HGVC club member rights to book at 60 days prior for reservations not booked by owners.


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## Duh (Nov 29, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> So you paid Hilton Club Fees for 2023 correct and you were able to booked 140 nights of reservations for 2023. Correct.
> 
> What Diamond Resort did you owned?
> 
> How long have you been a Diamond owners?



Nope. Haven't even gotten my maint fees for 2023 yet (due out this week). In Diamond, I have always been able to book 13 months out, without paying maint fees up front, as long as I made the booking on the website. If you call customer service to make the booking, they require you pay 75% of the next year's maint fees up front before making the booking but not if you do it online (which is why I make ALL of my bookings online).

I originally owned fixed week at Powhatan Plantation for 18 years (May 1989). Sunterra purchased that resort somewhere shortly afterwards (but I stayed fixed week) and then in 2007 Diamond purchased Sunterra. I have been a Diamond points only owner since 2 days after Diamond purchased Sunterra (March 2007). So total ownership has been 33.5 years now.


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## Duh (Nov 29, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> As an owner you stay in the renovated wings. As a MAX or RCI exchanger there is a chance an HGV owner could be assigned to the unrenovated wing of a resort. Lower points possible but worth it? This was a terrible policy by DRI.  I have reservations to stay at two DRI/HVC resorts premium Max points units next year.  I am nervous as to whether the units will be acceptable. I have never had to worry about this with HGVC resorts.



I'm sorry but here is where you are trying to make statements that are simply untrue because you have no real knowledge of Diamond......or me. I have stayed in renovated units, non-renovated unit, and just about everything in between. As a Platinum owner, I can pick my actual unit 3 times a year and the last thing I worry about is whether a unit is renovated or not. I pick a unit based on the location as that is what matters to me, especially at larger resorts. I'm begging you, please, PLEASE, ask questions instead of making assumptions. 

Which two resorts are you staying at? I can most likely help you understand them as I have been to most in the US and a few overseas.

Let me ask you a question. If you worry so much about the quality of a Diamond resort, why in the world did you pay the money to join HGV Max? You could have saved that money and just continue to enjoy your HGVC resorts that you seem to love and trust so much.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2022)

I haven't joined HGV max. Primarily because there is nothing in writing and not sure what will get or give up from HGVC. We will be staying at P@P and KBC via exchanges to try them out.

See this post below about P@P which is supposedly a high end DRI resort. I have also heard the same about renovated/unrenovated wings at Sedona. See the photo below from Hilton.com for 80s mauve pink sinks and outdated showers. (I'd rather stay at Hyatt Sedona until I know all units have been brought up to HGVC standard. Another reason to hold off on HGV Max until I know what I am trading for.) We don't play golf and it is too far for us to visit east coast beaches or Florida so that rules out many DRI resorts.









						Kauaii Diamond Resort now a Hilton - Not up to par
					

We're staying in the Resort at Poipu which is one of the Diamond to Hilton transfers, 2 BR, garden view.  We've been here about 9 hours, and I already want to leave --now. It's the Air Conditioning - there is none in the central living room that I can find and the bedrooms have these older room...




					tugbbs.com


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## drucifer (Nov 29, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Many HGVC owners don't view most of the HVC portfolio as attractive unless HVC significantly upgrades. Why would one consistently trade HGVC Mercedes resorts to stay at a Chevy HVC resort?



Well, in my case Sapphire, NC, is about 15-20 miles from where my daughter goes to summer camp in the North Carolina mountains.  Even though I own at the beach, I'm honestly more of a "high country" person than a beach person.  I haven't stayed there yet, but it seems nice enough and a reasonably good value for the points required for the stay.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 29, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Something not right about this. HGVC Club reservations for West 57th only opens 60 days prior. How could this Max  poster book for April when no one else can?
> 
> If Max is superseding HGVC club owners AND infringing upon W57 Home Resort owner deeded rights there is a big problem with MAX.



It is possible if you book via RCI Portal, perhaps NOT HGVC portal.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> It is possible if you book via RCI Portal, perhaps NOT HGVC portal.



That is my thinking as well. I find some people on FB are confused about their reservations.


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## mempey (Nov 29, 2022)

Just my 2 cents as I am a recent sucker, I mean HGVMax owner.  On my HGV page I cannot book out on West 57th past the 27th of January.  That could just be my tier too but thought I'd pass this along.  Thanks!


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2022)

mempey said:


> Just my 2 cents as I am a recent sucker, I mean HGVMax owner.  On my HGV page I cannot book out on West 57th past the 27th of January.  That could just be my tier too but thought I'd pass this along.  Thanks!


Thanks for confirming that. 60 days would be correct.


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## pedro47 (Nov 29, 2022)

Duh said:


> Nope. Haven't even gotten my maint fees for 2023 yet (due out this week). In Diamond, I have always been able to book 13 months out, without paying maint fees up front, as long as I made the booking on the website. If you call customer service to make the booking, they require you pay 75% of the next year's maint fees up front before making the booking but not if you do it online (which is why I make ALL of my bookings online).
> 
> I originally owned fixed week at Powhatan Plantation for 18 years (May 1989). Sunterra purchased that resort somewhere shortly afterwards (but I stayed fixed week) and then in 2007 Diamond purchased Sunterra. I have been a Diamond points only owner since 2 days after Diamond purchased Sunterra (March 2007). So total ownership has been 33.5 years now.


The 2023 Maintenace Fees for Greensprings Vacation Resort, Williamsburg, VA were posted sometimes in November 2022 on the DRI website.
The Club Fees have not been posted as of 11/28/2022 on the website.


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## Duh (Dec 1, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> The 2023 Maintenace Fees for Greensprings Vacation Resort, Williamsburg, VA were posted sometimes in November 2022 on the DRI website.
> The Club Fees have not been posted as of 11/28/2022 on the website.


That may be the case for deeded week owners but not for point owners in the US Collection. Checked this morning and still not released yet.


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## Duh (Dec 1, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> It is possible if you book via RCI Portal, perhaps NOT HGVC portal.


There may be a difference between HGVC Max owners and Diamond HGV Max owners. Again, I do not know and simply have regurgitated what members have posted. Who knows what all of the possible variations are and as Calgirl stated, many owners have no clue as to how they booked where.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 1, 2022)

Through my wyndham portal I can book W57th in february, But I can book HC in the summer. 

So you have to ask them were they booked it.


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## pedro47 (Dec 1, 2022)

Duh said:


> There may be a difference between HGVC Max owners and Diamond HGV Max owners. Again, I do not know and simply have regurgitated what members have posted. Who knows what all of the possible variations are and as Calgirl stated, many owners have no clue as to how they booked where.


Are you a Diamond Club Member and in what collections ?

How much did Powhatan resort maintenance fees and The Club fees increase for 2023 ?


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## Duh (Dec 1, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Are you a Diamond Club Member and in what collections ?
> 
> How much did Powhatan resort maintenance fees and The Club fees increase for 2023 ?


Platinum owner (Legacy owner I guess now) in the US Collection. I have no idea what the deeded week maint fees at Powhatan are but supposedly the US Collection increased by 7% (will know for sure when our bills come out hopefully in a couple of days. Just found out the Hawaii Collection increased 8.3% for 2023.


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## PigsDad (Dec 1, 2022)

Duh said:


> Platinum owner (Legacy owner I guess now) in the US Collection. I have no idea what the deeded week maint fees at Powhatan are but supposedly the US Collection increased by 7% (will know for sure when our bills come out hopefully in a couple of days. Just found out the Hawaii Collection increased 8.3% for 2023.


Just curious -- what is the current MF/point cost for the US and Hawaii Collection?  Was just wondering how it compares to the average MF/point cost of HGVC deeds.

Kurt


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## youppi (Dec 1, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> Just curious -- what is the current MF/point cost for the US and Hawaii Collection?  Was just wondering how it compares to the average MF/point cost of HGVC deeds.
> 
> Kurt


HI Collection MF 2022 and 2023 are


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 1, 2022)

Thanks for sharing I am a bit lost. Which line is the total MF/point? Is it 17.7 cents per point in 2023? What are those other lines for?


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## NOLA47 (Dec 2, 2022)

Just for clarity, would you please define who HGVC Legacy Members are.....thanks.


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## Nowaker (Dec 2, 2022)

youppi said:


> HI Collection MF 2022 and 2023 are



How much do you pay if you have, say, 8000 points? Is my understanding correct?

$250 + $10.42 + $0.17749 * 8000 + $0.00740 * 8000 + $207 (assuming regular member base fee, not valued) + $0.00560 * 8000 = $1991.34


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## GT75 (Dec 2, 2022)

NOLA47 said:


> would you please define who HGVC Legacy Members are


If you haven't joined (upgraded) Max then you are HGVC Legacy Member.


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## Duh (Dec 2, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> Just curious -- what is the current MF/point cost for the US and Hawaii Collection?  Was just wondering how it compares to the average MF/point cost of HGVC deeds.
> 
> Kurt


It varies slightly depending on what level and how many points you own as there are some standard base fees and then some per point fees but for my 50,000 points the maint fees come out to 19.3 cents per point for 2022. I have been told that for the US Collection, maint fees are supposed to rise 7% for 2023 which would put me around 20 cents per point. Just checked again and as of this morning the maint fees for 2023 still have not been released yet.


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## pedro47 (Dec 2, 2022)

Dumb question are your maintenance fees based upon Powhatan or Greensprings Resort ?


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## HuskerATL (Dec 2, 2022)

GT75 said:


> If you haven't joined (upgraded) Max then you are HGVC Legacy Member.


Just to add, if you buy new or upgrade a deed, you are automatically in Max.  Only folks who owned prior to Max and then didn't upgrade or a new resale buyer, will be in HGVC Legacy.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 2, 2022)

Duh said:


> It varies slightly depending on what level and how many points you own as there are some standard base fees and then some per point fees but for my 50,000 points the maint fees come out to 19.3 cents per point for 2022. I have been told that for the US Collection, maint fees are supposed to rise 7% for 2023 which would put me around 20 cents per point. Just checked again and as of this morning the maint fees for 2023 still have not been released yet.


I don't know much about the DRI side but do these points allow you to use these points at any DRI property? They seem high at 19.3 cents per point.  I know ours average 9.6 cents per points for 2022.


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## Nomad420 (Dec 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Just to add, if you buy new or upgrade a deed, you are automatically in Max.  Only folks who owned prior to Max and then didn't upgrade or a new resale buyer, will be in HGVC Legacy.


Anybody know the percentage of "Legacy" to "Max" owner?  From my limited perspective I  have not seen a bunch of owners flocking to Max.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 2, 2022)

Nomad420 said:


> Anybody know the percentage of "Legacy" to "Max" owner?  From my limited perspective I  have not seen a bunch of owners flocking to Max.


You can review the investor meeting transcripts and ppts here, https://investors.hgv.com/events-an...Q3BwIEX3Yd10xLj3puScv-WDgMEYlqttWS9SL9DtFIaPI . According to the transcripts, there are about 50k Max members with 515k members so just under 10% but if you look at the September 2022 ppt, it says there are over 720k members.  Not sure why there is a discrepancy with the number of owners between the Sept investor ppt and the November Earnings call transcripts but less than 10% according to the November numbers and 6.9% according to the Sept ppt.  I have no idea how those divide out between HGVC Legacy who became Max, new Max owners, and DRI Legacy who became Max though.


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## Nomad420 (Dec 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> You can review the investor meeting transcripts and ppts here, https://investors.hgv.com/events-an...Q3BwIEX3Yd10xLj3puScv-WDgMEYlqttWS9SL9DtFIaPI . According to the transcripts, there are about 50k Max members with 515k members so just under 10% but if you look at the September 2022 ppt, it says there are over 720k members.  Not sure why there is a discrepancy with the number of owners between the Sept investor ppt and the November Earnings call transcripts but less than 10% according to the November numbers and 6.9% according to the Sept ppt.  I have no idea how those divide out between HGVC Legacy who became Max, new Max owners, and DRI Legacy who became Max though.


From my perspective even less going to "Max" than I would have thought especially if you use the Sept numbers.  As I stated I don't see owners flocking to Max, I certainly am not.


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## youppi (Dec 2, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> How much do you pay if you have, say, 8000 points? Is my understanding correct?
> 
> $250 + $10.42 + $0.17749 * 8000 + $0.00740 * 8000 + $207 (assuming regular member base fee, not valued) + $0.00560 * 8000 = $1991.34


Almost. You need at least 15,000 pts to use the equation you used for the Club Fee ($207 + $0.00560 * nbr_of_pts).
A member with 8,000 pts is a valued member and the Club fee is a flat rate of $274.

Value member: up to 14,999 pts
Silver member: 15,000 to 29,999 pts
Gold member: 30,000 to 49,999 pts
Platinum member: 50,000 to 99,999 pts
Centum member: 100,000 pts and more

HI Collection MF = (HI Collection fee) + (HI GET fee) + (The Club fee)

For 8,000 pts, the total HI Collection MF is ($250 + $0.17749 * 8,000) + ($10.42 + $0.00740 * 8,000) + ($274) = $2013.54
For 15,000 pts, the total HI Collection MF is ($250 + $0.17749 * 15,000) + ($10.42+ $0.00740 * 15,000) + ($207 +  $0.00560 * 15,000) = $3324.77

HI Collection MF since 2007 (1,000 pts to 100,000 pts per step of 500 pts)


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQGS75CyojXbtN956jTGoyp3ZnsLhjSwGBCTuz6RYENeK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


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## Duh (Dec 2, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Dumb question are your maintenance fees based upon Powhatan or Greensprings Resort ?


If you are asking me, neither. My maint fees are based on the US Collection.


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## Duh (Dec 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I don't know much about the DRI side but do these points allow you to use these points at any DRI property? They seem high at 19.3 cents per point.  I know ours average 9.6 cents per points for 2022.


Yes. If you are in The Club (meaning developer purchased points), then you have access to all of the approximate 100 resorts in all of the collections. If you are a dirt point owner (resale) then you only have access to resorts within the collection those points are owned in.
While the cost per point may seem high, it was pretty much an all inclusive fee. We had no addition costs to roll points into the next year and such that HGVC has (based on level of ownership).


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## cowboyfan (Dec 2, 2022)

singlemalt_18 said:


> FWIW - In a recent conversation with a 20 year Hilton Rep, he explained that in terms of "inventory management", they close each year in June to assess for the coming 12 months. He also explained that the current 6 month booking window for MAX is temporary, and only expected to be in effect for the coming year or so, so as not to create unnecessary chaos in the merging of the two platforms. They did not want folks on either side to have issues with their normal or customary bookings. They fully expect to restore conventional booking window parameters for ALL MAX members once initial dust settles and they have a clearer picture of inventory.
> 
> Regarding inventory in the new combined platform, the Rep said that unlike the typical industry practice of NOT pursuing defaults because of the inefficiencies and costs associated with such actions, Hilton has every intention to claw back every bit of inventory they can find either in default or with questionable titles. (Pursuing collections is not the same as reclaiming title.) It was a very interesting conversation, and I believe Hilton is in this for keeps, playing the long game. I also believe that going forward, those in MAX will see the most value from their ownership.
> 
> Let the disagreement begin!


I am currently a HGVC owner at Parc Soleil and If I buy a resale Diamond property in South Lake Tahoe would it be considered part of the Hilton properties or would I have to become a member of Diamond International?


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## geist1223 (Dec 2, 2022)

If you buy DRI resell (commonly referred to as dirt points) you would be part of DRI. The DRI resell Points can only be used in the Collection to which they belong. You would not have access to all DRI Collections/Resorts.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 2, 2022)

Duh said:


> Yes. If you are in The Club (meaning developer purchased points), then you have access to all of the approximate 100 resorts in all of the collections. If you are a dirt point owner (resale) then you only have access to resorts within the collection those points are owned in.
> While the cost per point may seem high, it was pretty much an all inclusive fee. We had no addition costs to roll points into the next year and such that HGVC has (based on level of ownership).


That is the nice part about being elite premier, we don't have those fees either.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That is the nice part about being elite premier, we don't have those fees either.


The lack of nickel and diming was across the board in Diamond.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> Just curious -- what is the current MF/point cost for the US and Hawaii Collection?  Was just wondering how it compares to the average MF/point cost of HGVC deeds.
> 
> Kurt


Maint fees just released late last night for the US Collection. And increase of 6.46% to 20.57 cents per point.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

cowboyfan said:


> I am currently a HGVC owner at Parc Soleil and If I buy a resale Diamond property in South Lake Tahoe would it be considered part of the Hilton properties or would I have to become a member of Diamond International?


I assume you mean purchasing a resale deeded week which means you would just be a week owner and would pay your maint fees for that week to HVC. Diamond weeks don't convey points like HGVC without making another purchase to get you into The Club and if you did that now that week would convert to HGV Max.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> If you buy DRI resell (commonly referred to as dirt points) you would be part of DRI. The DRI resell Points can only be used in the Collection to which they belong. You would not have access to all DRI Collections/Resorts.


But then that would be getting dirty points in the US Collection since you can't buy (get.....because people are giving them away) points at a specific resort.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

To Duh,
Question are Diamond Club Members at Powhatan and Greensprings going to be HGV Max members without paying ant additional fees ? In your opinion?


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## GT75 (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> The lack of nickel and diming was across the board in Diamond.


I am glad that DRI owners are getting something for paying roughly 2.5 times the MFs as HGVC owners.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

GT75 said:


> I am glad that DRI owners are getting something for paying roughly 2.5 times the MFs as HGVC owners.


To GT75,
You are correct, DRI owners pays a lot more for MFs and Club Fees than HGVC owners.
Plus, HGVC Resorts are better maintained than DRI Resorts. I just pray that Hilton will bring the DRI Resorts up to Hilton standards. DRI collect enough in maintenance fees and their Club Fees to match Hilton Resorts standards.


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## Talent312 (Dec 3, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> How can these Diamond owners who have upgrade to HGV Max make reservations for 2023?
> When Hilton have not released THE CLUB FEES for 2023  ?



In the HGV world, it matters not weather you have paid next year's fees.
If still in the grace period, you can even stay B4 paying.
But you are subject to lock out only if majorly overdue.
.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> The lack of nickel and diming was across the board in Diamond.


But, I would take nickel and diming with <10 cents per point than 19 cents per point. You still come out ahead.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

GT75 said:


> I am glad that DRI owners are getting something for paying roughly 2.5 times the MFs as HGVC owners.


Not really though. HGVC units cost a lot more points for a week than a Diamond unit so the cost differential is not that great. Add the ability to upgrade at the time of booking and our points stretch even further. From what I have read about HGVC, 50,000 points will get you on average about 5 weeks of timesharing a year. My 50,000 points gets be closer to 12-13 weeks of timesharing in the same size unit. And we have many more options for locations to go visit than HGVC. But I do agree, Diamond's fees have skyrocketed since the merger took place.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> But, I would take nickel and diming with <10 cents per point than 19 cents per point. You still come out ahead.


Look at it this way. Let's say we both want to go to Orlando. a 2 bdrm in your Parc Soliel cost 13,440 points at 7.93 cents per point costing you $1,065.92 for the week. I go to Polynesian Isles (my favorite Orlando Diamond resort) and spend 4,000 points at 19.3 cents per point for a 1 bdrm and $84 to upgrade to a 2 bdrm at time of booking costing me $856 or $209 less than your week. And I don't have the nickel and dime fees to go with it. You can't just look at the price per point in maint fees and call it a straight comparison.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> Look at it this way. Let's say we both want to go to Orlando. a 2 bdrm in your Parc Soliel cost 13,440 points at 7.93 cents per point costing you $1,065.92 for the week. I go to Polynesian Isles (my favorite Orlando Diamond resort) and spend 4,000 points at 19.3 cents per point for a 1 bdrm and $84 to upgrade to a 2 bdrm at time of booking costing me $856 or $209 less than your week. And I don't have the nickel and dime fees to go with it. You can't just look at the price per point in maint fees and call it a straight comparison.


Not a good comparison. You have to look at what it would now cost you to stay in Parc Soliel that is 13,440, which would be $2,593.92.  The $59 reservation fee doesn't offset that.


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## PigsDad (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> Look at it this way. Let's say we both want to go to Orlando. a 2 bdrm in your Parc Soliel cost 13,440 points at 7.93 cents per point costing you $1,065.92 for the week. I go to Polynesian Isles (my favorite Orlando Diamond resort) and spend 4,000 points at 19.3 cents per point for a 1 bdrm and $84 to upgrade to a 2 bdrm at time of booking costing me $856 or $209 less than your week. And I don't have the nickel and dime fees to go with it. You can't just look at the price per point in maint fees and call it a straight comparison.


Good explanation, but just for reference, a 2BR at Parc Soliel for a week in Platinum season would be 11,200 points, not 13,440, bringing the cost down to $888 in your example.

Kurt


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## dayooper (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> Look at it this way. Let's say we both want to go to Orlando. a 2 bdrm in your Parc Soliel cost 13,440 points at 7.93 cents per point costing you $1,065.92 for the week. I go to Polynesian Isles (my favorite Orlando Diamond resort) and spend 4,000 points at 19.3 cents per point for a 1 bdrm and $84 to upgrade to a 2 bdrm at time of booking costing me $856 or $209 less than your week. And I don't have the nickel and dime fees to go with it. You can't just look at the price per point in maint fees and call it a straight comparison.



FYI - The 13440 would be a 3 bedroom platinum week or a 2 bedroom plus platinum week.

You also can’t just look at the total cost and call it a straight comparison either. I have never stayed at a DRI resort before, but are there differences between the level of accommodations? I can stay a Comfort Inn or a Doubletree. The Doubletree will cost more, but the level of accommodations are not the same. The Doubletree is a more luxurious property than the Comfort Inn (or Hiltons lower level Hampton Inn) and the price reflects that.

I looked at the Hilton Honors App for June 20-21 2023 (we will be in Orlando at that time). HGVC Sea World (the 2nd oldest HGVC built property) was running $483 per night while Mystic Dunes (from what I have been told is one of the best resorts in the DRI/HVC system) is going for $188 a night. These are both 2 bedroom suites. I’m not saying that Mystic Dunes is $295 a night worse than Seaworld, but Hilton must think there is a fairly large difference for there to be that much difference in price.

I‘m not saying that DRI/HVC resorts are bad accommodations. I don’t even know if there is a difference as I have never stayed at one (and probably never will as I have no desire to purchase directly from HGVC). I will also that there are some people that want the higher level of accommodations and others could care less. I would say that most would want the higher accommodations if the prices were very similar.


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## Nowaker (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> I go to Polynesian Isles (my favorite Orlando Diamond resort) and spend 4,000 points at 19.3 cents per point for a 1 bdrm and $84 to upgrade to a 2 bdrm at time of booking costing me $856 or $209 less than your week.



How much in points and dollars would it cost you to book 2 bedroom at that location? Without opting for a 1 BR to 2 BR cash upgrade.


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## youppi (Dec 3, 2022)

youppi said:


> Almost. You need at least 15,000 pts to use the equation you used for the Club Fee ($207 + $0.00560 * nbr_of_pts).
> A member with 8,000 pts is a valued member and the Club fee is a flat rate of $274.
> 
> Value member: up to 14,999 pts
> ...


I updated US and Europe (EU) Collection too.
US Collection MF since 2007 (1,000 pts to 100,000 pts per step of 500 pts)


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQOluS3vEx9nH-oWM-WU4ksSwqPM0_8E1Vt6v3stURSTggLY8OmN_RZYkF3DQuCNECelW-F6FGo3Wej/pubhtml#
		


EU Collection MF since 2007 (1,000 pts to 100,000 pts per step of 500 pts)


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQYiFSRC-kZNSAktdK_VzkIYl9Bv3rmTkupsib1PmAG1wuReU9FkbSIXxmwl17-6gy0vEObR4DKhOO9/pubhtml#


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> Good explanation, but just for reference, a 2BR at Parc Soliel for a week in Platinum season would be 11,200 points, not 13,440, bringing the cost down to $888 in your example.
> 
> Kurt


I was basing the point cost on the numbers from your HGVC 2022 Maint Fee thread and I do notice the Parc Soleil unit I picked was a 1 bdrm Platinum, not 2 bdrm (line 19....sorry, the numbers are a little fuzzy to me which is why I thought it said 2 bdrm).


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

dayooper said:


> FYI - The 13440 would be a 3 bedroom platinum week or a 2 bedroom plus platinum week.
> 
> You also can’t just look at the total cost and call it a straight comparison either. I have never stayed at a DRI resort before, but are there differences between the level of accommodations? I can stay a Comfort Inn or a Doubletree. The Doubletree will cost more, but the level of accommodations are not the same. The Doubletree is a more luxurious property than the Comfort Inn (or Hiltons lower level Hampton Inn) and the price reflects that.
> 
> ...


Actually, I can look at just the total cost as that is the only thing that is factually based. Differences in level of accommodations are purely a personal feeling that changes from person to person. Some folks can look at a 3/2 house and think it's a mansion while someone else looks at the same house and think it's a piddly dump based on each person's own experiences whereas the cost is the same no matter what a person's experiences is.

And just because HGVC Seaworld costs more than double per night than Mystic Dunes, it doesn't mean you get more than double the value. It only means that HGVC found that the market can bear that price point for the people that normally stay there. Perrier cost more than double of Gerolsteiner and yet many people would rather have Gerolsteiner.


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## Duh (Dec 3, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> How much in points and dollars would it cost you to book 2 bedroom at that location? Without opting for a 1 BR to 2 BR cash upgrade.


A 2 bdrm straight up would cost 6,000 points but why in the world would I not take advantage of using an upgrade? It's a benefit for Diamond owners and it would be silly to just throw points away when one doesn't have to.


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## Nowaker (Dec 3, 2022)

Duh said:


> why in the world would I not take advantage of using an upgrade?


I never expressed or implied you should. 



Duh said:


> From what I have read about HGVC, 50,000 points will get you on average about 5 weeks of timesharing a year. My 50,000 points gets be closer to 12-13 weeks of timesharing in the same size unit.


50K HGVC != 50K DRI. Different MFs, different points costs at properties. But let's take a mathematical look at it...



Duh said:


> A 2 bdrm straight up would cost 6,000 points



Thanks for providing it. Here's the final cost comparison. Foreword:

I have around ~50K HGVC points and pay ~$5,400 for it, including club fee, or pay $0.109 MFpp (actual number from my spreadsheet)
A DRI owner that pays the same amount in MFs and club fees would have 27,000 points, or pay $0.20041 MFpp (actual number from @youppi's spreadsheet)
I don't have the best HGVC properties in terms of MFpp, but I don't have the worst. They're "okay". My average MFpp ($0.109) is not far from Flamingo 2 BR Plat ($0.102) and Elara 1 BR Grand Gold ($0.114).
2022 MFpps were used for both.
Club fee is included in both MFpps.
Math tells the truth. If _my_ math lies, please correct my math, so it tells the truth as it should. Because math tells the truth.

*DOLLAR-EQUIVALENT COST OF STAYING A WEEK

Staying in 2 BR at Parc Soleil:*
HGVC member = 11,200 points * $0.109/point + $59 = $1279.80
DRI member via HGV Max = 11,200 points * $0.20041/point = $2244.59

*Staying in 2 BR at Polynesian Isles:*
HGVC member via HGV Max = 6,000 points * $0.109/point + $59 = $713
DRI member = 4,000 points * $0.20041/point + $84 = $885.64 (cash upgrade from 1 BR to 2 BR)

*NUMBER OF WEEKLY STAYS AFFORDED WITH $5,400 PAID IN ANNUAL MFs

Staying in 2 BR at Parc Soleil:*
HGVC member = 50,000 points / 11,200 points/week = ~4.5 weeks
DRI member via HGV Max = 27,000 points / 11,200 = ~2.4 weeks

*Staying in 2 BR at Polynesian Isles:*
HGVC member = 50,000 points / 6,000 points/week = ~8.3 weeks
DRI member via HGV Max = 27,000 points / 4,000 = ~6.8 weeks


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## dayooper (Dec 4, 2022)

Duh said:


> Actually, I can look at just the total cost as that is the only thing that is factually based. Differences in level of accommodations are purely a personal feeling that changes from person to person. Some folks can look at a 3/2 house and think it's a mansion while someone else looks at the same house and think it's a piddly dump based on each person's own experiences whereas the cost is the same no matter what a person's experiences is.
> 
> And just because HGVC Seaworld costs more than double per night than Mystic Dunes, it doesn't mean you get more than double the value. It only means that HGVC found that the market can bear that price point for the people that normally stay there. Perrier cost more than double of Gerolsteiner and yet many people would rather have Gerolsteiner.



No, you can’t just look at the cost. If price were the only factor, Yugo would still be sold here and there would be no brand names at grocery stores, only generic names. (FYI - I am not saying DRI or Polynesian Island is generic or a Yugo). Even in your water analogy, there are those that buy Perrier. If cost were the only thing to look at, there would never have been a Perrier. Yet the $32 difference per week between the resorts is negligible. When looking at the Hilton Honors app, there must be a reason for the big difference in price per night. Why? You talk price points, Mystic Dunes should be completely booked, yet all the other HGVC resorts (that cost more per night) are not available during that timeframe. Price is most definitely not the only to look at.

 I agree that luxury is a personal taste and appreciate yours (and everybody else's). They are all different. That means there are many who like the higher level of accommodations and that has to be put into consideration.

DRI works for you and that’s great. You have enough developer driven points to receive the upgrades you need to make it work. For me? Never would work as I don’t see myself purchasing developer points. HGVC works great for me as they treat resale points almost the same as developer bought. The only nickel and dime fees I have paid so far are the club booking fees. That’s it. I always go into next year with my points so I don’t have to save. We both make our respective systems work for us and that’s the most important part of this whole discussion.


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## brp (Dec 4, 2022)

dayooper said:


> DRI works for you and that’s great. You have enough developer driven points to receive the upgrades you need to make it work. For me? Never would work as I don’t see myself purchasing developer points. HGVC works great for me as they treat resale points almost the same as developer bought. The only nickel and dime fees I have paid so far are the club booking fees. That’s it. I always go into next year with my points so I don’t have to save. We both make our respective systems work for us and that’s the most important part of this whole discussion.



Well said. Since we own at W. 57th (bHC), we pay the All In fee and don't even have the booking fee after a one-time payment. So far, we have been banking, and I don't like paying for that. But retirement looms and that should change 

We are looking at buying resale, i.e. "dirty" points in DRI for a couple of hhawai'i locations and willing to deal with the restrictions that DRI will put on us for buying resale. Do not see a need to every pay developer prices for this.

Cheers.


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## HuskerATL (Dec 4, 2022)

Since we are EP, we don't have to pay any of those fees and do get free upgrades on occasion.


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## Duh (Dec 4, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> To Duh,
> Question are Diamond Club Members at Powhatan and Greensprings going to be HGV Max members without paying ant additional fees ? In your opinion?


There is no how, no way, that Hilton is going to give a Diamond owner, either points or deeded week, access to Hilton's resorts without getting something (CASH) in return. Period. That's goes for just about every single timeshare company out there.


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## Duh (Dec 4, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> I never expressed or implied you should.
> 
> 
> 50K HGVC != 50K DRI. Different MFs, different points costs at properties. But let's take a mathematical look at it...
> ...


Here's my question. Where in the world did you come up with the figure that an average Diamond week (not HGVC week) will cost 11,200 points? This is one of the reason I consider upgrading to HGV Max a downgrade. Diamond HGV Max owners may stay a couple of times at an HGVC resort just to see what it's like but when they see they need to pay double the points or more for an HGVC resort they will stick with the Diamond resorts they love. I agree, an Diamond HGV Max owner will pay a lot more if they purely go only HGVC resorts but based on your costs, they would be just plain silly of them to do so. Granted, there are a lot of silly people in the world that can't add but anyone with a brain would never do it.

Just as an example, In March I will be at the Beachwood Resort (Diamond), Kitty Hawk, NC for a week in a 1 bdrm unit for 1650 points (only because I decided to check in on a Tues. If I had checked in on Sat or Sun it would have only been 1500 points). And there isn't a Hilton resort within a hundred miles of the location.

But the gist of it is, each side can spin the numbers to their own liking to back up their beliefs. My 50,000 points will get me many more nights at a Diamond resort than your 50,000 at an HGVC resort. And I won't have to pay $20,000 to upgrade to Max and I won't (currently) lose my ability to upgrade for $12 a night to a larger unit at time of booking. So, for the time being, I'm good with what I own. As Hilton continues to diminish my benefits, at that time I will have to decide whether to walk or not and then it won't matter to me at all what Hilton/Diamond decide to do.


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## Duh (Dec 4, 2022)

dayooper said:


> No, you can’t just look at the cost. If price were the only factor, Yugo would still be sold here and there would be no brand names at grocery stores, only generic names. (FYI - I am not saying DRI or Polynesian Island is generic or a Yugo). Even in your water analogy, there are those that buy Perrier. If cost were the only thing to look at, there would never have been a Perrier. Yet the $32 difference per week between the resorts is negligible. When looking at the Hilton Honors app, there must be a reason for the big difference in price per night. Why? You talk price points, Mystic Dunes should be completely booked, yet all the other HGVC resorts (that cost more per night) are not available during that timeframe. Price is most definitely not the only to look at.
> 
> I agree that luxury is a personal taste and appreciate yours (and everybody else's). They are all different. That means there are many who like the higher level of accommodations and that has to be put into consideration.
> 
> DRI works for you and that’s great. You have enough developer driven points to receive the upgrades you need to make it work. For me? Never would work as I don’t see myself purchasing developer points. HGVC works great for me as they treat resale points almost the same as developer bought. The only nickel and dime fees I have paid so far are the club booking fees. That’s it. I always go into next year with my points so I don’t have to save. We both make our respective systems work for us and that’s the most important part of this whole discussion.


I never said price was the only thing to look at. That being said, you may be a multimillionaire so price has little affect upon your decisions. I am not so overall price does affect a lot of my value driven decisions. I do agree we all see value and luxury differently which is not a problem. I am simply saying that purely financially speaking, Diamond owners can get a lower cost per night stayed at a Diamond resort (due to lower point costs and upgrades) than a Hilton owner pays per night at an HGVC resort.


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## Duh (Dec 4, 2022)

brp said:


> Well said. Since we own at W. 57yh (bHC), we pay the All In fee and don't even have the booking fee after a one-time payment. So far, we have been banking, and I don't like paying for that. But retirement looms and that should change
> 
> We are looking at buying resale, i.e. "dirty" points in DRI for a couple of hhawai'i locations and willing to deal with the restrictions that DRI will put on us for buying resale. Do not see a need to every pay developer prices for this.
> 
> Cheers.


Dirty points, in any Diamond collection, should always be free. There is no market for dirty points in Diamond so there is no need to "pay" for them. Just be aware of the restrictions with dirty points and if you're good with them, then enjoy!


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## brp (Dec 4, 2022)

Duh said:


> Dirty points, in any Diamond collection, should always be free. There is no market for dirty points in Diamond so there is no need to "pay" for them. Just be aware of the restrictions with dirty points and if you're good with them, then enjoy!


I say "buy} generically here. If the cost is $0, so much the better. As long as the dirty points let me stay in the resorts within the collection in which I buy (and my belief is that this is the case), that is all I need. I am interested in two DRI resorts only, and they are in the same collection. All else is irrelevant.

I have seen some arguments about buying "clean" points in a different collection being cheaper in the long term and still letting me stay where I want, so may look into that. Still a lot of dust to settle before I have any interest in DRI. I know where I stand with my HGVC (and bHC). Not so sure with DRI in the current flux.


(To be specific, we're interested in KBC and P@P,  but I've seen some comments about buying into a collection that includes Sedona as a cheaper way to be able to stay at these Hawai'i properties over time.)

Cheers.


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## dayooper (Dec 4, 2022)

Duh said:


> I never said price was the only thing to look at. That being said, you may be a multimillionaire so price has little affect upon your decisions. I am not so overall price does affect a lot of my value driven decisions. I do agree we all see value and luxury differently which is not a problem. I am simply saying that purely financially speaking, Diamond owners can get a lower cost per night stayed at a Diamond resort (due to lower point costs and upgrades) than a Hilton owner pays per night at an HGVC resort.



It all depends on where you want to go. Orlando is over run with timeshares and sometimes not a good use of points. We have spent our last 2 summers in Hilton Head and that’s a great use of our points. The same 11,200 points can get me a week in a 2 bedroom at the end of June on South Forest Beach where that same week would run you $5000 if you paid the Hilton rack rate. That same 11200 points can get me a week on the Big Island of Hawaii, beach front at Myrtle Beach, ski weeks at Breckinridge CO and Park City UT (the last are very difficult to book without owning there). If I’m lucky, I can even get Oahu. These all are standard rooms, but beach front is still beach front. A ski week is still a ski week. All of these would cost me the same as that week in Orlando would cost me. If I want a higher level room, I pay more points. Sometimes I do. The premiere 2 bedrooms at Hilton Head are fantastic. Sometimes we book 3 bedroom (and those cost more).

I’m not saying that you can’t get great rates with DRI, but the thought process of us HGVC members being nickeled and dimed to death giving us horrible rates isn’t necessarily true.


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## Nowaker (Dec 4, 2022)

Duh said:


> Where in the world did you come up with the figure that an average Diamond week (not HGVC week) will cost 11,200 points?


Nowhere.  ... So where did you?



Duh said:


> each side can spin the numbers to their own liking to back up their beliefs.


That's what you're doing. I didn't care what the numbers would say. I had no beliefs before doing the math. I just did the math and that's what came out of it. Stop making it a "who's got a better system" deal, and start looking at the numbers and what they mean. You clearly didn't, but you still have a chance to do so.


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## brp (Dec 4, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> That's what you're doing. I didn't care what the numbers would say. I had no beliefs before doing the math. I just did the math and that's what came out of it. Stop making it a "who's got a better system" deal, and start looking at the numbers and what they mean. You clearly didn't, but you still have a chance to do so.



To amplify this: What @Nowaker did was to list premises (DRI based on things in your posts, HGVC from his own experiences) and then simply do the maths. The resulting numbers are just facts (addition and multiplication) and not "spin."

The only way that the final numbers are incorrect are if any of the premises are wrong. Which, specifically, of the premises in his analysis are not correct? If you can point to specific lines in the analysis, that would make things more clear.

Cheers.


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## escanoe (Dec 5, 2022)

Duh said:


> Here's my question. Where in the world did you come up with the figure that an average Diamond week (not HGVC week) will cost 11,200 points?



That is reportedly what a regular 2BR unit costs in terms of points in prime (platinum) season (YMMV some based on resort).

When HGV rebased our (HGVC) points, it was reportedly to equalize point values.



Duh said:


> Just as an example, In March I will be at the Beachwood Resort (Diamond), Kitty Hawk, NC for a week in a 1 bdrm unit for 1650 points (only because I decided to check in on a Tues. If I had checked in on Sat or Sun it would have only been 1500 points). And there isn't a Hilton resort within a hundred miles of the location.



 That is an off-season 1-bedroom at the beach being compared to a typical platinum season 2-BR HGVC booking (11,200 points in HGVC).

There is also a bunch of these Beachwoods available through RCI. Booking one (1BR in March) can be had in my RCI points account for 21,000 RCI points ($140 in MFs for me) and a $269 exchange fee in my regula (non-HGVC) RCI points account.

And anyone with an RCI Platinum account (10% discount) can rent a 1BR March week at the Beachwoods for $440.99 + Tax ($56.23 in my case).

How many HGVC resorts can be booked as an "extra" vacation in RCI right now? (My guess is none to not very many.)


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## Duh (Dec 5, 2022)

brp said:


> I say "buy} generically here. If the cost is $0, so much the better. As long as the dirty points let me stay in the resorts within the collection in which I buy (and my belief is that this is the case), that is all I need. I am interested in two DRI resorts only, and they are in the same collection. All else is irrelevant.
> 
> I have seen some arguments about buying "clean" points in a different collection being cheaper in the long term and still letting me stay where I want, so may look into that. Still a lot of dust to settle before I have any interest in DRI. I know where I stand with my HGVC (and bHC). Not so sure with DRI in the current flux.
> 
> ...


You will only be able to buy "clean" points from the developer. All resale points, unless to a direct family member, are dirty but yea, they can be used at any resort in the collection which they reside in. Onl3 of the 12 reosrts in the Hawaii Collection are actually in Hawaii (P@P, KBC, and The Modern). The rest are in California and Nevada.


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## Duh (Dec 5, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> You clearly didn't, but you still have a chance to do so.


I've done nothing but look at the numbers since the merger was announced in Feb 2021. And berceuse of those numbers and what Hilton has done to Diamond since the merger not only will I never join HGV Max, I most likely will walk from Diamond period. I'm sure Hilton won't care as they can then resell my 50,000 points so someone else for an exorbitant second profit so it's a win for them. But you go ahead and believe what you want as it matters not to me.


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## Duh (Dec 5, 2022)

escanoe said:


> That is an off-season 1-bedroom at the beach being compared to a typical platinum season 2-BR HGVC booking (11,200 points in HGVC).
> 
> There is also a bunch of these Beachwoods available through RCI. Booking one (1BR in March) can be had in my RCI points account for 21,000 RCI points ($140 in MFs for me) and a $269 exchange fee in my regula (non-HGVC) RCI points account.
> 
> ...


Feel free to show many ANY HGVC resort, 1 bdrm of any type, in any season, that can be booked through HGVC (not RCI or Bookings . com or other locations) that can be booked for 1,500 points for a week. I've seen the points chart and I can't find a one.

ETA: Scratch that. I really don't care. I know my facts and I know the costs based on my research of your site here on TUG.


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## brp (Dec 5, 2022)

Duh said:


> You will only be able to buy "clean" points from the developer. All resale points, unless to a direct family member, are dirty but yea, they can be used at any resort in the collection which they reside in. Onl3 of the 12 reosrts in the Hawaii Collection are actually in Hawaii (P@P, KBC, and The Modern). The rest are in California and Nevada.



Thanks. No interest on Oahu, Hawai'i Island is covered well by HGVC, so only Maui and Kauai are of interest, So that small set works.

Cheers.


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## Nowaker (Dec 5, 2022)

Duh said:


> I've done nothing but look at the numbers since the merger was announced in Feb 2021.


You only keep throwing random words, rather than go to https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/w...nal-hgvc-ownership-by-hgv.346129/post-2875068 and either point out my errors in the numbers I run or agree with said numbers.


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## Duh (Dec 5, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> You only keep throwing random words, rather than go to https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/w...nal-hgvc-ownership-by-hgv.346129/post-2875068 and either point out my errors in the numbers I run or agree with said numbers.


Since you can't comprehend the words and visuals I am trying to make, I'll make it easy for my last post here.

You: How much in points and dollars would it cost you to book 2 bedroom at that location? *Without opting for a 1 BR to 2 BR cash upgrade.*
Me: why in the world would I not take advantage of using an upgrade?
You: I never expressed or implied you should.

Do you not understand what you wrote??

----------------------------------------------

And my whole point is that it is stupid for a Diamond owner to go into HGV Max. The cost is way too high for a Diamond owner to stay at an HGVC Max resort. As you pointed out, HGVC owners get a killing staying at a Diamond resort. I stated exactly why a Diamond owner should stay at Diamond resorts because for the money spent, I can get more than double the nights with my *50,000* points than going to HGVC resorts. And I lose my ability to upgrade by converting to Max which just makes my stays even more expensive. Good bye.


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## Nowaker (Dec 5, 2022)

What part of this section below do you not understand? HTFU man, seriously...

---

Thanks for providing it. Here's the final cost comparison. Foreword:

I have around ~50K HGVC points and pay ~$5,400 for it, including club fee, or pay $0.109 MFpp (actual number from my spreadsheet)
A DRI owner that pays the same amount in MFs and club fees would have 27,000 points, or pay $0.20041 MFpp (actual number from @youppi's spreadsheet)
I don't have the best HGVC properties in terms of MFpp, but I don't have the worst. They're "okay". My average MFpp ($0.109) is not far from Flamingo 2 BR Plat ($0.102) and Elara 1 BR Grand Gold ($0.114).
2022 MFpps were used for both.
Club fee is included in both MFpps.
Math tells the truth. If _my_ math lies, please correct my math, so it tells the truth as it should. Because math tells the truth.

*DOLLAR-EQUIVALENT COST OF STAYING A WEEK

Staying in 2 BR at Parc Soleil:*
HGVC member = 11,200 points * $0.109/point + $59 = $1279.80
DRI member via HGV Max = 11,200 points * $0.20041/point = $2244.59

*Staying in 2 BR at Polynesian Isles:*
HGVC member via HGV Max = 6,000 points * $0.109/point + $59 = $713 *<----- Do you now understand why I needed to know how much without the cash upgrade?!*
DRI member = 4,000 points * $0.20041/point + $84 = $885.64 (cash upgrade from 1 BR to 2 BR) *<----- Look, I took it into account you can pay less points for it, see?!*

*NUMBER OF WEEKLY STAYS AFFORDED WITH $5,400 PAID IN ANNUAL MFs

Staying in 2 BR at Parc Soleil:*
HGVC member = 50,000 points / 11,200 points/week = ~4.5 weeks
DRI member via HGV Max = 27,000 points / 11,200 = ~2.4 weeks

*Staying in 2 BR at Polynesian Isles:*
HGVC member = 50,000 points / 6,000 points/week = ~8.3 weeks. 
DRI member via HGV Max = 27,000 points / 4,000 = ~6.8 weeks  *<----- Still 4000 cost with that 1 BR -> 2 BR deal, see?!*


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## geist1223 (Dec 5, 2022)

Why walk away from DRI? You retain all the rights and privileges in DRI that you had before the purchase. Just stay away from MAX.


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