# Canadian border will remain closed.



## Chrisky

Our Prime Minister said today in a news conference that our border with the US will remain closed except for essential transport of goods etc. until June 21. 
At that time a decision will be taken to decide if the border will remain closed or reopen to limited crossings.


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## AJCts411

Just my opinion.  But in Ontario, all  malls are closed...shopping...you line up to get into the open shops.  Restrunts , bars are closed. All entertainment venues closed...so other that separating family members who would be crossing the boarder?  Seems to me tourism is dead in Ontario.   Whats open in Michigan and NY..don't really know but with a $1.42 Canadian dollar who can really afford crossing into the USA? Not shoppers.


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## jabberwocky

AJCts411 said:


> Just my opinion.  But in Ontario, all  malls are closed...shopping...you line up to get into the open shops.  Restrunts , bars are closed. All entertainment venues closed...so other that separating family members who would be crossing the boarder?  Seems to me tourism is dead in Ontario.   Whats open in Michigan and NY..don't really know but with a $1.42 Canadian dollar who can really afford crossing into the USA? Not shoppers.



It’s a very different story out in the west. Things were always pretty open for many stores. Our home renovation continued without pause since construction is an essential industry. 

Right now in AB we’re pretty much sitting at zero new daily cases and declining hospitalizations (only 6 people in ICU in the whole province). Testing capacity in AB is 16k people and only 2-3k people are meeting the very broad criteria to take a test. They are practically begging people to take a test. 

As soon as the border opens up our family will be heading south to visit my BIL and his family.


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## CanuckTravlr

The Canada/US border agreement that closes the border to non-essential travel is extended once again, now until at least July 21st.  It is highly likely this will also not be the last extension.  There are a few exceptions to the non-essential travel ban, such as reunification of immediate family members, introduced in early June.









						Canada-U.S. border to remain closed to non-essential travel for another month
					

An agreement has once again been reached between Canada and the United States to keep the border closed to all non-essential travel for another month, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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## moonstone

The Canadian - US border remains closed until Oct.21st for all non-essential traffic, although some restrictions have been lifted to allow families and others to visit.  It appears many people don't know the rules or think they don't apply to them. 








						More than 3,400 Americans rejected from entering Canada last month for shopping, sightseeing
					

Another 3,441 travellers from the U.S. were rejected from entering Canada over the last month, according to new figures from the Canada Border Services Agency on Thursday.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




~Diane


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## AnnaS

We wold love to visit my husband's aunt and uncle.  We will have to wait and have some patience.  We visited them I believe two years ago.  They are elderly (80s) - don't want to risk them getting sick......yet - like so many - precious time is wasting.  It is what it is.


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## Synergy

AnnaS said:


> We wold love to visit my husband's aunt and uncle.  We will have to wait and have some patience.  We visited them I believe two years ago.  They are elderly (80s) - don't want to risk them getting sick......yet - like so many - precious time is wasting.  It is what it is.



We are trying to decide how to safely visit my other half's ailing elderly mom.  We are also staying pretty isolated here because my dad recently started chemo.  We think we would be relatively safe to fly up to her if we only visit with her for 48 hours after we get to the airport here - better than nothing, anyway. We'd isolate upon our return to make sure we didn't pick up anything before visiting my father again.  Unfortunately, right now NY doesn't have a testing exemption to allow Florida visitors, so that plan is on hold for awhile.  So tough to navigate all this =(


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## moonstone

New extension announced this morning, not really a surprise. 








						Canada-U.S. border to remain closed until Nov. 21, at least
					

The COVID-19 travel restrictions in place at the Canada-U.S. land border will remain in effect until Nov. 21 at least.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




~Diane


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## BingoBangoBongo

I have no doubt the closure will extend at least through the end of 2020.


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## geist1223

Hopefully it will end by June 2021. We would hate to miss 2 trips to Vancouver BC.


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## pedro47

Your Prime Minister made the right decision IMHO.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

pedro47 said:


> Your Prime Minister made the right decision IMHO.



The decision had the support of all the provincial premiers and something over 80% of those asked in various polls.

He also made the right decision from another viewpoint - Prime Minister’s are the leader  of their party and his party currently has a minority of seats in parliament- so there is no upside to a decision to open the border, since any other party that would support this would also be swimming against polling numbers.


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## moonstone

geist1223 said:


> Hopefully it will end by June 2021. We would hate to miss 2 trips to Vancouver BC.



I called the RCI/VV rep  after the announcement this morning to reschedule our check-in this Saturday at VV@Pkwy to Oct.2021 and said I hope we are able to travel by then!!  Yikes!

~Diane


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## AJCts411

My guess remains the same on the border reopening, still is after the US election, as both "sides" in the US are advocating for reopening the boarder, but it is way to big of a political football with an election pending.  And after the USA thanksgiving.   End of the day the USA could open the boarder to all traffic at the land crossings, and there is absoluty zero the CDN goverment could do to stop anyone from leaving the country,  re-entering/entering Canada...still a 2 week quarantine at worst.


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## Ironwood

The Canadian border remains closed to entry for non essential travel to at least November 21, and I wouldn't hold out hopes for a re-opening until into the new year. 
Asked about the border on Monday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said the “situation in the United States continues to be of concern.”  Public Safety Minister Blair says health and welfare of Canadians comes first.


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## DannyTS

The vast majority of Canadians do not travel abroad on an yearly basis, 40% do not even have a passport. If the polls are future guidance for the government the border can stay closed forever


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## CanuckTravlr

AJCts411 said:


> My guess remains the same on the border reopening, still is after the US election, as both "sides" in the US are advocating for reopening the boarder, but it is way to big of a political football with an election pending.  And after the USA thanksgiving.   End of the day the USA could open the boarder to all traffic at the land crossings, and there is absoluty zero the CDN goverment could do to stop anyone from leaving the country,  re-entering/entering Canada...still a 2 week quarantine at worst.



The Canadian government has not stopped anyone from leaving and returning to Canada.  You just can't drive or walk across the US land border into the USA.  If you are already in the USA, any Canadian citizen or permanent resident can re-enter Canada by land.  I doubt Canada will change the entry restrictions anytime soon.

There have also been no restrictions on anyone flying from Canada to the USA or anywhere else, other than maybe flight availability.  That is still an option.  However, when you re-enter Canada, you are still subject to the 14-day quarantine rules.

What the USA decides to do with who they might let cross is entirely their decision.  American citizens or resident aliens have also been allowed to re-enter the USA by land from Canada, if they happened to be here already, or were legally transiting to or from Alaska and the lower 48.


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## DannyTS

CanuckTravlr said:


> The Canadian government has not stopped anyone from leaving and returning to Canada.  You just can't drive or walk across the US land border into the USA.  If you are already in the USA, any Canadian citizen or permanent resident can re-enter Canada by land.  I doubt Canada will change the entry restrictions anytime soon.
> 
> There have also been no restrictions on anyone flying from Canada to the USA or anywhere else, other than maybe flight availability.  That is still an option.  However, when you re-enter Canada, you are still subject to the 14-day quarantine rules.
> 
> What the USA decides to do with who they might let cross is entirely their decision.  American citizens or resident aliens have also been allowed to re-enter the USA by land from Canada, if they happened to be here already, or were legally transiting to or from Alaska and the lower 48.


I would actually prefer to be able to travel by car than by plane, many people consider it a safer option


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## dioxide45

If people can still travel by air, what purposes is it really serving other than being symbolic?


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## BingoBangoBongo

dioxide45 said:


> If people can still travel by air, what purposes is it really serving other than being symbolic?



I’d guess it eliminates a large number of day/weekend trips across the border.  Most people don’t fly to the outlet malls/casinos.

As an aside, I did notice an enclosed car carrier on the NYS Thruway last week headed back towards the border.  I’d guess they are seeing some increased business with those willing to fly while they pay to have their car shipped.


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## moonstone

BingoBagnoBongo said:


> As an aside, I did notice an enclosed car carrier on the NYS Thruway last week headed back towards the border. I’d guess they are seeing some increased business with those willing to fly while they pay to have their car shipped.



Yes I bet there is an increase in shipping since folks could fly and meet their vehicle somewhere. I belong to several camping Facebook pages and have read about many Canadians (with fat wallets?) shipping their motorhomes across the border so they can still winter in the south. One couple said it was so expensive to ship to Florida they made arrangements to ship their motorhome from Toronto to Buffalo and they will fly. One company they contacted for an estimate told them they couldn't have any personal effects in the motorhome -haha, the whole point is to put most of what they want to take and use all winter into the RV.

DH decided, out of curiosity, to get a few quotes on shipping our Nissan Cube from the Toronto or Fort Erie area to the Buffalo area so we could drive to Florida. The cheapest quote he got was $850 Cndn. Yikes!   We are staying at home.


~Diane


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## MICROZE

moonstone said:


> Yes I bet there is an increase in shipping since folks could fly and meet their vehicle somewhere. I belong to several camping Facebook pages and have read about many Canadians (with fat wallets?) shipping their motorhomes across the border so they can still winter in the south. One couple said it was so expensive to ship to Florida they made arrangements to ship their motorhome from Toronto to Buffalo and they will fly. One company they contacted for an estimate told them they couldn't have any personal effects in the motorhome -haha, the whole point is to put most of what they want to take and use all winter into the RV.
> 
> DH decided, out of curiosity, to get a few quotes on shipping our Nissan Cube from the Toronto or Fort Erie area to the Buffalo area so we could drive to Florida. The cheapest quote he got was $850 Cndn. Yikes!   We are staying at home.
> 
> 
> ~Diane


$850 CDN is a steal. We paid USD $1200 to ship our sons car within the US.


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## CanuckTravlr

MICROZE said:


> $850 CDN is a steal. We paid USD $1200 to ship our sons car within the US.



It SOUNDS cheap, but how far did you have to ship your son's car?  Fort Erie is right across the Niagara River from Buffalo.  So $850 (even if CAD) to ship it maybe 10 or 20 miles is not my idea of cheap!

Even from Toronto, it's less than 100 miles to Buffalo.  But if you are going to be in the USA for several weeks or months, it is still a lot cheaper than a rental car, even factoring in the flight costs to get to Buffalo.  The bigger issue might be finding a cross-border flight to Buffalo during the pandemic, so a private charter might be needed.


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## moonstone

CanuckTravlr said:


> It SOUNDS cheap, but how far did you have to ship your son's car? Fort Erie is right across the Niagara River from Buffalo. So $850 (even if CAD) to ship it maybe 10 or 20 miles is not my idea of cheap!
> Even from Toronto, it's less than 100 miles to Buffalo. But if you are going to be in the USA for several weeks or months, it is still a lot cheaper than a rental car, even factoring in the flight costs to get to Buffalo. The bigger issue might be finding a cross-border flight to Buffalo during the pandemic, so a private charter might be needed.




Yes, I don't think there are many, if any, direct flights from Toronto to Buffalo. The couple who are shipping their motorhome couldn't get a direct flight so they are flying Toronto to a point in the eastern US (cant remember if it was New York City, Philadelphia, DC) then back to Buffalo which is going to take them most of the day.  What a procedure!  At least they should be able to drive home in the spring with no problems.  I hope it works out for them and their winter stay is worth the hassle and cost.

We looked into flying to Florida but since we had 17 nights booked down there in 3 different cities/towns we would definitely need a rental car. When we added the cost of return flights from Toronto and Orlando and rental car for 18 days it was going to be at least 3X the cost that we spend in gas, food & lodging along the way to drive our car down, tour around and drive home again. Plus I wouldn't be able to bring all my "stuff" that I like to take for timeshare stays.   We wont even mention trying to get one of our kids to get out of bed in the middle of the night to make the 90 min drive to the Toronto airport for 4am or long term parking near the airport for our car.  Geesh!


~Diane


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## CanuckTravlr

moonstone said:


> Yes, I don't think there are many, if any, direct flights from Toronto to Buffalo. The couple who are shipping their motorhome couldn't get a direct flight so they are flying Toronto to a point in the eastern US (cant remember if it was New York City, Philadelphia, DC) then back to Buffalo which is going to take them most of the day.  What a procedure!  At least they should be able to drive home in the spring with no problems.  I hope it works out for them and their winter stay is worth the hassle and cost.
> 
> We looked into flying to Florida but since we had 17 nights booked down there in 3 different cities/towns we would definitely need a rental car. When we added the cost of return flights from Toronto and Orlando and rental car for 18 days it was going to be at least 3X the cost that we spend in gas, food & lodging along the way to drive our car down, tour around and drive home again. Plus I wouldn't be able to bring all my "stuff" that I like to take for timeshare stays.   We wont even mention trying to get one of our kids to get out of bed in the middle of the night to make the 90 min drive to the Toronto airport for 4am or long term parking near the airport for our car.  Geesh!
> 
> 
> ~Diane



I fully agree with you, Diane.  Years ago, rental cars were cheap in Florida, but not anymore.  We always drive down to either the Carolinas and/or Florida for the same reasons as you, especially since we are usually gone for at least15 to 30 days at a time.  Not this year.  This will be our first time staying home all winter in years.  We cancelled our Florida trip at the end of December and our 5-week stay in St. Martin that was scheduled for January/February 2021.


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## rapmarks

I have to ask.  Do you have anti maskers in Canada? Do Canadians say it is no worse than the flu?   Do they say it will be over after November 3?  Do they say that the deaths are overstated or cause of death misstated? Etc etc etc


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## echino

rapmarks said:


> I have to ask.  Do you have anti maskers in Canada? Do Canadians say it is no worse than the flu?   Do they say it will be over after November 3?  Do they say that the deaths are overstated or cause of death misstated? Etc etc etc



Yes.

Not sure about "not worse", but the statistics indicate Covid is comparable to flu.


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## CanuckTravlr

echino said:


> Yes.
> 
> Not sure about "not worse", but the statistics indicate Covid is comparable to flu.



Really???  What statistics are you looking at?  Could you provide them please, or have you been watching too much cross-border television?    

To date, in a little over 7 months in Canada, there have been 9,829 deaths due to Covid-19, and we are now hitting the second wave.

Deaths due to the flu in Canada are normally reported as a combined total for both pneumonia and the flu.  Perhaps that combined number is what you are referencing.  The combined total is about 8,500, but only about 3,500 of those are due to the flu.  I would respectfully suggest that Covid-19 and the flu are not really "comparable"!



			https://www.ontario.ca/page/flu-facts


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## echino

CanuckTravlr said:


> Really???  What statistics are you looking at?  Could you provide them please, or have you been watching too much cross-border television?
> 
> To date, in a little over 7 months in Canada, there have been 9,829 deaths due to Covid-19, and we are now hitting the second wave.
> 
> Deaths due to the flu in Canada are normally reported as a combined total for both pneumonia and the flu.  Perhaps that combined number is what you are referencing.  The combined total is about 8,500, but only about 3,500 of those are due to the flu.  I would respectfully suggest that Covid-19 and the flu are not really "comparable"!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ontario.ca/page/flu-facts



Covid and Plague are not comparable. Covid and Cholera are not comparable. Covid and Ebola are not comparable. Covid and Flu are comparable.


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## Maple_Leaf

CanuckTravlr said:


> Really???  What statistics are you looking at?  Could you provide them please, or have you been watching too much cross-border television?


Please, don't blame the Yanks for Canadian lunacy. We can hold our own without American help.

I went back to the 2009-10 H1N1 epidemic in Canada.  There were 33,509 cases of H1N1 in that flu season, resulting in 428 deaths for a case fatality rate of about 1%. That's for a flu we knew was bad and we knew was coming since we had seen it appear at the end of the previous flu season.

From John's Hopkins, below is the progression of the case fatality rate for COVID-19 in Canada:



To my eyes this shows that COVID-19 went from being an order of magnitude worse than H1N1 to about as bad as H1N1.  That's not by magic, we appear to have learned something about how to treat these patients successfully.


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## CanuckTravlr

Maple_Leaf said:


> Please, don't blame the Yanks for Canadian lunacy. We can hold our own without American help.
> 
> I went back to the 2009-10 H1N1 epidemic in Canada.  There were 33,509 cases of H1N1 in that flu season, resulting in 428 deaths for a case fatality rate of about 1%. That's for a flu we knew was bad and we knew was coming since we had seen it appear at the end of the previous flu season.
> 
> From John's Hopkins, below is the progression of the case fatality rate for COVID-19 in Canada:
> 
> To my eyes this shows that COVID-19 went from being an order of magnitude worse than H1N1 to about as bad as H1N1.  That's not by magic, we appear to have learned something about how to treat these patients successfully.



There is an old saying, "there's statistics and there's damn statistics".  It is always important to make sure the data you are comparing have the same base or parameters.  You have taken a chart showing the 30-day average DAILY case fatality rate for Covid-19 over the last 7+ months and then used the most recent average daily fatality rate of about 1% to make your comparison.  You have then compared it to the CUMULATIVE case fatality death rate for the H1N1 flu for the entire 2009-2010 season.

They are not comparable figures!  While we have gotten better at dealing with respiratory illnesses over the last decade, the chart you are showing only shows the story to-date.  We are now hitting a second wave.  If hospitals become overwhelmed again, the fatality rate of Covid-19 could easily increase again.  But your conclusion is inaccurate, even without that possible occurrence.  Here is the correct comparison.

The cumulative figures for Covid-19 in Canada as of today are 209,148 cases resulting in 9,862 deaths, and we are not at the end of the "season" yet.  That is a cumulative case fatality rate of 4.72%.  The H1N1 flu statistics you quote of 33,509 cases resulting in 428 deaths, is a cumulative case fatality rate of 1.28%.  *That translates into Covid-19 being worse than the flu by an order of magnitude of 3.7!!*


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## echino

Compare to case fatality rate of Ebola of 25% to 90%. Covid is not Ebola, but is handled like it is.


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## Maple_Leaf

[QUOTE="CanuckTravlr, post: 2521044, member: 86635"
The cumulative figures for Covid-19 in Canada as of today are 209,148 cases resulting in 9,862 deaths, and we are not at the end of the "season" yet.  That is a cumulative case fatality rate of 4.72%.  The H1N1 flu statistics you quote of 33,509 cases resulting in 428 deaths, is a cumulative case fatality rate of 1.28%.  *That translates into Covid-19 being worse than the flu by an order of magnitude of 3.7!!*
[/QUOTE]
Not really. 

H1N1 was a KNOWN threat in 2009-10. We were prepared for it.

We learned on the job with COVID19. You should look at the CFR for the last 30 days because that indicates our current status using 30 day period to account for the length of the virus lifecycle. You shouldn't include April data because that was a different world of ignorance.


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## CanuckTravlr

Well, I guess posts #32 and #33 are proof for rapmarks that we have deniers here, too!!  If you want to manipulate data to minimize the problem and support your agenda, I can't stop you, but don't try and pretend it is either accurate or honest.  I prefer to follow the science.

Ebola?  Really?  What has that got to do with Canada or Covid-19?  We have never had a single case here.  Death rates in third-world countries are not comparable for a whole bunch of reasons, mostly due to lack of proper and adequate medical resources to stop it in the first place.  Nice try, but just another red herring!!

Glad to hear that neither of you seem to have any concern with almost 10,000 dead Canadians, one of them a friend of mine!  That is about the same as all the various flu episodes in the last three years!  It isn't just another flu!!!!  It would have been much worse if we had not taken the extraordinary measures that we have.  If we had been as glib as both of you and reacted like the USA we would now likely have more than 26,000 dead.

My grandfather spent three years in the trenches of Europe in WWI.  My father, father-in-law and several uncles spent five years battling on the North Atlantic, on the ground and in the air of Europe in WWII.  None of them had any "vacations" nor saw their families and they didn't whine about it.  Sorry that your vacation plans have been disrupted.  How self-absorbed so many of us have become!

One thing I have learned during this pandemic is that there is no point discussing reasonably with those who have no interest in the "bigger picture" or have hidden agendas.  I'm done.


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## AJCts411

Interesting to read the opinions of both sides of this discussion.  Including the "red herring" arguments from each prospective.   I think is is unreasonable to paint the USA with a broad brush of COVID death and devastation everywhere...just like I do in Ontario where my county has a infection rate of 0.37% while GTA and Ottawa have numbers sky rocketing.  Only comparison rally is how draconian or not some states and provinces have reacted.     So you can guess that I am not in favor of the shelter in place lock down plan. The devastation this causes is un-measurable, mostly ignored.  This does not mean in anyway that I am not concerned about the death rates nor unsympathetic of lost love ones.   And never occurred to me that wanting more "normal freedoms" would be somehow offensive to those who served in WWII.   My "big picture" just happens to be something different than others.  No hidden agenda, on my end.


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## CanuckTravlr

AJCts411 said:


> Interesting to read the opinions of both sides of this discussion.  Including the "red herring" arguments from each prospective.   I think is is unreasonable to paint the USA with a broad brush of COVID death and devastation everywhere...just like I do in Ontario where my county has a infection rate of 0.37% while GTA and Ottawa have numbers sky rocketing.  Only comparison rally is how draconian or not some states and provinces have reacted.     So you can guess that I am not in favor of the shelter in place lock down plan. The devastation this causes is un-measurable, mostly ignored.  This does not mean in anyway that I am not concerned about the death rates nor unsympathetic of lost love ones.   And never occurred to me that wanting more "normal freedoms" would be somehow offensive to those who served in WWII.   My "big picture" just happens to be something different than others.  No hidden agenda, on my end.



We all "want" more normal freedoms.  But I do object when people are presenting data in a less-than-truthful manner to try and minimize the current situation, especially trying to compare it to the flu, or selectively excluding data to make it fit their argument better.  As someone trained as an economist, that is a no-no!!

My reference to the two world wars was a comment on the fact that so many people today seem to be whining about being restricted in what they can do for awhile.  The concept of self-sacrifice for the greater good of society seems to be lost on them.  It all seems to be about "me".  During both world wars people had no vacations, were away from their families, suffered rationing and restrictions on movement for several years.  There was no video conferencing, phone connections or email.

We have only been at this for about seven months, so I find this type of attitude very disappointing.  We are better than this.  You talk about freedoms being restricted.  The "freedoms" of those who have died are permanently restricted!  I would rather give up some of my freedoms in the short term to ensure more people do not have their freedoms taken away forever.  You can agree or disagree.  You still fortunately have that freedom.

We now at least deal with infections more selectively, because we have better learned to manage and treat Covid-19 until a viable vaccine is available.  That's a good thing, IMO, but it is not a justification for returning everything back to a pre-Covid "normal".  Based on your comments, I assume your area is relatively open and less restricted, unlike the red zones of the GTA and Ottawa, which are more locked down.  But I don't know what county it refers to and the infection rate number by itself is meaningless.

Can I assume that the 0.37% rate is the cumulative positive test (or case) rate?  If so, it is less than the provincial average of 0.46%, although that provincial average is obviously skewed by the large populations of the GTA and Ottawa.  The case positive rate to-date for the City of Toronto is double that at 0.90%.

That is why it is a red zone and needs tighter restrictions.  One size does not fit all, is something we have learned in the last few months.  It is also harder to control the spread of the virus in more densely populated areas, like major cities.  We see that lesson in places like Toronto, NYC and Europe.  It could still be controlled even better, but would likely require draconian controls, closer to what we have seen in places like China, South Korea and Singapore.  I'm not sure our society could handle that.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

BingoBagnoBongo said:


> I’d guess it eliminates a large number of day/weekend trips across the border.  Most people don’t fly to the outlet malls/casinos....



I have seen people flying by me on the QEW - 

some were probably heading to an outlet mall at 135 Kilometres per hour !!


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## Talent312

CanuckTravlr said:


> There is an old saying, "[T]here's statistics and there's damn statistics."



I concur with your post, but the "saying" to which you refer has been mangled.
It goes: ""There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-- Popularized in the U.S. by Mark Twain, but attributed to various British sources.
-- Source: Wikipedia

In reviewing the literature, it appears that, of the three, the worst are the statistics
which "experts" can twist to say anything.
-- See: https://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/lies.htm

What I know is this:
A damn lot of people have become seriously ill and died needlessly - who'd be
relatively healthy+alive - but for the failure of leaders to adequately protect the
populations they supposedly serve... and some here have seen it for themselves.
.


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## CanuckTravlr

Talent312 said:


> I concur with your post, but the "saying" to which you refer has been mangled.
> It goes: ""There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
> -- Popularized in the U.S. by Mark Twain, but attributed to various British sources.
> -- Source: Wikipedia



Glad you agree.  Thanks for your support.

Just for the record, I am certainly familiar with the Mark Twain quote.  That is not who I was quoting, but I obviously did not bother to give a formal attribution, so I can understand why you thought that I was.  The quote came from one of my quant methods profs.  At the very beginning of the course, he was trying to instill in us a respect for any statistics we might develop and use in future.

It was sort of a cautionary "truth in numbers" speech that I have never forgotten.  He referred to the well-known Twain comment.  However, he made the point that statistics do not have to be grouped with lies and damned lies.  He said that too often statistics are used and manipulated, often selectively, to prove someone's preconceived point or assumption.  Those are the "damn statistics".  He told us to be careful not to fall into that trap.

Statistics are important and useful and can help inform and guide us and understand where we have been, as well as where we might be going.  He asked us to always make sure that our statistical analysis is transparent and fully discloses the assumptions made and parameters used.  We should also ensure we are comparing "apples to apples", not "apples to oranges".  Anyway, the lecture went on in more depth, but the point is that I was impressed by it at the time it and it has helped guide me over the years.

It therefore annoys me when others don't follow that guidance.  A pet peeve (and a bit of a rant, I suppose), but thought I should clarify the source and context.  Thanks for listening!!


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## CanuckTravlr

The government has just extended the ban on large cruise ships in Canadian waters to at least the end of February 2021.  So far, unless it is extended further, that does not interfere with the 2021 Alaska and Atlantic Coast/St. Lawrence River cruise seasons.





__





						Minister Garneau announces extended measures for cruise ships and pleasure craft in Canada  - Canada.ca
					

Today, given the ongoing situation with COVID-19, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Marc Garneau, announced the extension of measures pertaining to cruise ships and pleasure craft until February 28, 2021.




					www.canada.ca


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## pedro47

CanuckTravlr said:


> The government has just extended the ban on large cruise ships in Canadian waters to at least the end of February 2021.  So far, unless it is extended further, that does not interfere with the 2021 Alaska and Atlantic Coast/St. Lawrence River cruise seasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Minister Garneau announces extended measures for cruise ships and pleasure craft in Canada  - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Today, given the ongoing situation with COVID-19, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Marc Garneau, announced the extension of measures pertaining to cruise ships and pleasure craft until February 28, 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca


This is an excellent move by the government.


----------



## Maple_Leaf




----------



## Ironwood

The most recent extension of the U.S.-Canada border closure expires this Friday, November 21.  No one expects the border to fully open in two days, but we've heard nothing so far this week.  Something must be up!


----------



## CanuckTravlr

Ironwood said:


> The most recent extension of the U.S.-Canada border closure expires this Friday, November 21.  No one expects the border to fully open in two days, but we've heard nothing so far this week.  Something must be up!



Not necessarily.  Based on recent months, I doubt we will hear about a decision until Friday (which is the 20th by the way...the 21st is Saturday).  With cases raging at peak numbers on both sides of the border, there is little to no justification to choose this time to open the border.

With a winter surge continuing in the northern hemisphere and no likely change in approach at the federal administrative level in the USA before the 20th of January, I suspect the border will remain closed until at least the spring.  Even with an early and effective vaccine, it will take several months for it to be able to suppress the virus on a mass scale.


----------



## moonstone

Ironwood said:


> The most recent extension of the U.S.-Canada border closure expires this Friday, November 21.  No one expects the border to fully open in two days, but we've heard nothing so far this week.  Something must be up!



Just saw this;   https://globalnews.ca/news/7470456/canada-us-border-closure-extended/

I wouldn't be surprised if it is officially announced tomorrow. I'd put money on it getting extended into January and beyond as well, especially if the numbers in both countries continue to rise as they have been doing lately. 


~Diane


----------



## jabberwocky

It will probably be extended well into the new year. We may see the air exemption closed down after January 20th as well.


----------



## SmithOp

Too bad it won’t stop the real snowbirds, those honking pooping geese on my golf course! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## CanuckTravlr

SmithOp said:


> Too bad it won’t stop the real snowbirds, those honking pooping geese on my golf course!




We send them south for half of the year to poop on your lawns and golf courses to give us some relief for our lawns and golf courses!  Plus, it really would mess up the postcard-perfect, pretty, white, pristine snow scenes in the winter!!!


----------



## jabberwocky

CanuckTravlr said:


> Plus, it really would mess up the postcard-perfect, pretty, white, pristine snow scenes in the winter!!!


You mean that brown, mushy oatmeal stuff all over our roads?


----------



## CanuckTravlr

jabberwocky said:


> You mean that brown, mushy oatmeal stuff all over our roads?



Shhhh!!!  You'll ruin our reputation from all the travel ads with the pristine, white snow on the trees and mountaintops!


----------



## DannyTS

I am looking at the budget, on our way to 381 billion dollars in deficit because of Covid. Then you have the provincial deficits. Actually not because of Covid but rather because of the response to Covid.


----------



## moonstone

Canada PM Trudeau indicates U.S. border restrictions to last a long time (msn.com) 

Looks like there's no use is planning a spring timeshare stay state-side to use up all our points left from this year.


~Diane


----------



## AnnaS

moonstone said:


> Canada PM Trudeau indicates U.S. border restrictions to last a long time (msn.com)
> 
> Looks like there's no use is planning a spring timeshare stay state-side to use up all our points left from this year.
> 
> 
> ~Diane



Thank you for the update.


----------



## CanuckTravlr

Yesterday they officially extended the ban on international travellers to January 21st, 2021.  That closure had previously expired on the 30th of the month.  They are now aligning the timing of the two.  When the current US/Canada border closure expires on December 21st, they are basically indicating it will be renewed again to January 21st.

From that point on, both bans can be handled as one announcement, rather than two separate announcements.  I don't think anyone is realistically expecting the border closures to be lifted before the middle of 2021.  Perhaps as late as the end of the summer.  The real issue here, as a smaller country, is that we could easily be swamped by tourists if the borders were fully opened.  A million Americans, for example, coming to Canada, has a much bigger impact than a million Canadians entering the USA.


----------



## DannyTS

CanuckTravlr said:


> Yesterday they officially extended the ban on international travellers to January 21st, 2021.  That closure had previously expired on the 30th of the month.  They are now aligning the timing of the two.  When the current US/Canada border closure expires on December 21st, they are basically indicating it will be renewed again to January 21st.
> 
> From that point on, both bans can be handled as one announcement, rather than two separate announcements.  I don't think anyone is realistically expecting the border closures to be lifted before the middle of 2021.  Perhaps as late as the end of the summer.  The real issue here, as a smaller country, is that we could easily be swamped by tourists if the borders were fully opened.  A million Americans, for example, coming to Canada, has a much bigger impact than a million Canadians entering the USA.


Clearly we favor our own Covid as we should. Why would we get infected with theirs when we have the very best quality here  ?


----------



## bbakernbay

We have had timeshares for over 30 years which totalled 7 weeks just 3 years ago.  We are now down to one and that one looks like it will be gone next year as well.
Our 4 consecutive weeks at Lago Vista at BVL was terrific for nearly 30 years but bad management resulted in a very high proportion of non-paying owners which resulted in substantial increase in MFees and we walked away and it is no longer a timeshare, just 50 units rented to Florida residents.  We were disappointed but had a great run there.

We bought an eBay resale at Fairfield Glade in TN and it was a beautiful unit but MFees got to be too high and we deeded it back using their Ovation program.

We had another Kissimmee points timeshare that we unfortunately bought in a sales presentation but utilized the points for exchanges.  I recently told them we would deed it back but we are not going to pay any transfer fees or one month of MFees to get out. They advised they will then start foreclosure paper working and that is fine.

Six now gone and one to go.

Our Palm Beach timeshare week which we bought on eBay for $1.00 was terrific and we enjoyed about 10 great years there every November.  The 40 year sunset is January 1st, 2021 and the AGM voted to not continue the timeshare so it will likely be sold which is fine with us So all 7 will be gone very soon.

We have about 60,000 points to use up on exchange which may be used up at Collingwood or somewhere else in Ontario as we doubt whether we will ever travel to US again, certainly not in next 2 years.

RCI is way too expensive for exchanging although their Extra Vacations are good value.  Look forward to not paying RCI fees anymore.

We did a lot of exchanges over last 30 years, Whistler, Oregon, Washington, Laguna Beach, Palm Springs, Maui, massanutten, Myrtle Beach, Halliburton, Collingsood and even the Manhattan Club in NYC and never had a problem in any of them so we were lucky.

Still glad to have them all gone with no hassle. 

Best advice was from one of the Managers telling me, “You’re from Canada, they are not able or willing to go after you for walking away”

I think there will be lots of Canadians thinking of relinquishing their timeshares.


----------



## DannyTS

bbakernbay said:


> We have had timeshares for over 30 years which totalled 7 weeks just 3 years ago.  We are now down to one and that one looks like it will be gone next year as well.
> Our 4 consecutive weeks at Lago Vista at BVL was terrific for nearly 30 years but bad management resulted in a very high proportion of non-paying owners which resulted in substantial increase in MFees and we walked away and it is no longer a timeshare, just 50 units rented to Florida residents.  We were disappointed but had a great run there.
> 
> We bought an eBay resale at Fairfield Glade in TN and it was a beautiful unit but MFees got to be too high and we deeded it back using their Ovation program.
> 
> We had another Kissimmee points timeshare that we unfortunately bought in a sales presentation but utilized the points for exchanges.  I recently told them we would deed it back but we are not going to pay any transfer fees or one month of MFees to get out. They advised they will then start foreclosure paper working and that is fine.
> 
> Six now gone and one to go.
> 
> Our Palm Beach timeshare week which we bought on eBay for $1.00 was terrific and we enjoyed about 10 great years there every November.  The 40 year sunset is January 1st, 2021 and the AGM voted to not continue the timeshare so it will likely be sold which is fine with us So all 7 will be gone very soon.
> 
> We have about 60,000 points to use up on exchange which may be used up at Collingwood or somewhere else in Ontario as we doubt whether we will ever travel to US again, certainly not in next 2 years.
> 
> RCI is way too expensive for exchanging although their Extra Vacations are good value.  Look forward to not paying RCI fees anymore.
> 
> We did a lot of exchanges over last 30 years, Whistler, Oregon, Washington, Laguna Beach, Palm Springs, Maui, massanutten, Myrtle Beach, Halliburton, Collingsood and even the Manhattan Club in NYC and never had a problem in any of them so we were lucky.
> 
> Still glad to have them all gone with no hassle.
> 
> Best advice was from one of the Managers telling me, “You’re from Canada, they are not able or willing to go after you for walking away”
> 
> I think there will be lots of Canadians thinking of relinquishing their timeshares.


Maybe. But I think there are a lot more Canadians that can't wait to use their timeshares again.


----------



## Maple_Leaf




----------



## jabberwocky

CanuckTravlr said:


> Yesterday they officially extended the ban on international travellers to January 21st, 2021.  That closure had previously expired on the 30th of the month.  They are now aligning the timing of the two.  When the current US/Canada border closure expires on December 21st, they are basically indicating it will be renewed again to January 21st.
> 
> From that point on, both bans can be handled as one announcement, rather than two separate announcements.  I don't think anyone is realistically expecting the border closures to be lifted before the middle of 2021.  Perhaps as late as the end of the summer.  The real issue here, as a smaller country, is that we could easily be swamped by tourists if the borders were fully opened.  A million Americans, for example, coming to Canada, has a much bigger impact than a million Canadians entering the USA.


I wonder if this could indicate that the US will not be extending their side of the ban?  The US land-border closure date has been negotiated on a monthly basis to coincide with the Canadian ban of US travel. By aligning it this was the Canadian government is effectively going their own way. 

Of course I am expecting the new US administration to shut things down on the border. Perhaps even extend it to air travel.


----------



## CanuckTravlr

jabberwocky said:


> I wonder if this could indicate that the US will not be extending their side of the ban?  The US land-border closure date has been negotiated on a monthly basis to coincide with the Canadian ban of US travel. By aligning it this was the Canadian government is effectively going their own way.
> 
> Of course I am expecting the new US administration to shut things down on the border. Perhaps even extend it to air travel.



I don't think this necessarily means the Canadian government is going its own way.  I think they were just trying to make future announcements easier and simpler by having a common date.  It also reduces confusion between the two dates for many people.

There are still two decisions to be made.  Allowing non-essential international travellers in by air or sea has always been solely at the discretion of the Canadian government.  The land border closing with the USA has, at least up until now, always been a joint decision.  The current order-in-council for the US border closing runs to December 21st.  I assume any decision to extend the land border closing from December 21st to January 21st will also likely be a joint agreement.  If so, then all future entry restrictions into Canada will have a common renewal date, but it is easier to make any changes going forward, as it becomes appropriate.

Until the impact of vaccines and/or the case rates reduce significantly on both sides of the border, I suspect the land border will remain closed.  There is always the possibility at some point that the US could open the land border to entry from Canada, while Canada keeps it closed to entry from the USA, but I don't think anyone has an accurate crystal ball on the timing of that, if it were to occur.


----------



## Fredflintstone

DannyTS said:


> I am looking at the budget, on our way to 381 billion dollars in deficit because of Covid. Then you have the provincial deficits. Actually not because of Covid but rather because of the response to Covid.



Funny, maybe in my little circle but I have tons of friends getting CRA Christmas letters telling them of their review, audit, or reassessments. A nice Christmas present. Maybe it’s because of being so cash strapped? Or maybe coincidence. Who knows


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jabberwocky

CanuckTravlr said:


> I don't think this necessarily means the Canadian government is going its own way.  I think they were just trying to make future announcements easier and simpler by having a common date.  It also reduces confusion between the two dates for many people.
> 
> There are still two decisions to be made.  Allowing non-essential international travellers in by air or sea has always been solely at the discretion of the Canadian government.  The land border closing with the USA has, at least up until now, always been a joint decision.  The current order-in-council for the US border closing runs to December 21st.  I assume any decision to extend the land border closing from December 21st to January 21st will also likely be a joint agreement.  If so, then all future entry restrictions into Canada will have a common renewal date, but it is easier to make any changes going forward, as it becomes appropriate.
> 
> Until the impact of vaccines and/or the case rates reduce significantly on both sides of the border, I suspect the land border will remain closed.  There is always the possibility at some point that the US could open the land border to entry from Canada, while Canada keeps it closed to entry from the USA, but I don't think anyone has an accurate crystal ball on the timing of that, if it were to occur.


I largely agree with you - and I think your second paragraph is spot on. I'll admit that my crystal ball has been smashed so many times, it is essentially powder at this point.

We have to remember that in the original OIC prohibiting entry to by non-Canadians/PRs, Canada provided an exemption for Americans.  Whether this was because there are so many dual-nationals who have a right-of-return, or whether they wanted to avoid provoking trade retaliation on the part of "he who shall not be named", I don't know.  The Canadian government needed the March 21 "border closure" agreement to both keep Canadians from crossing the border to save $2 on a gallon of milk (semi-enforced quarantine deterrent aside), and from the American tourists coming up to bring the plague with them.

The agreement was there in principle; however, it quickly became apparent that the implementation has been very different because each nation can only control who comes into their respective country.  Not who leaves.  Canada decided to exclude everyone unless they have a "right of return" or were involved in "essential travel", the US went with a "are you coming from a hotspot" approach.

The Americans never implemented border controls based on citizenship/residency - the presidential proclamations were based on where you had been in the prior 14 days.  Originally you couldn't enter the US if you had been to China, HK or Macau within the previous 14 days (narrow exceptions did allow returning citizens and a few others to come in, but they had to go to specific airports and undergo an exam and quarantine).  Later Iran, the Shengen (European) countries, the UK and Brazil were added.  Again, you could enter the US, as long as you had not had a physical presence in those countries. A Japanese person could fly to the US and be admitted without quarantine.  

Canada was never placed on the list of excluded countries, even with the US/Canada border agreement in place. This is the only logical reason to me why the US the "air loophole" exists.  If they applied the border agreement to air travel as well, in theory, Canadians would be treated worse than just about every other country (except perhaps North Korea) by virtue of being banned by citizenship.

Given this, I think both countries will eventually go their own way on this, and it makes sense for Canada to adopt a single date that they can just keep renewing.  Canada can keep its approach of not allowing any travel except for some narrow exceptions. The US can then adjust its border provisions as they see fit, which may include opening up the land border, or adding Canada to the list of countries travel is not allowed from. I imagine trying to negotiate this each much is pretty time-consuming for both sides.


----------



## jabberwocky

Fredflintstone said:


> Funny, maybe in my little circle but I have tons of friends getting CRA Christmas letters telling them of their review, audit, or reassessments. A nice Christmas present. Maybe it’s because of being so cash strapped? Or maybe coincidence. Who knows


Considering all of the other government functions that have pretty much shut-down, I find it perplexing that the CRA is considered an essential service.


----------



## Fredflintstone

jabberwocky said:


> Considering all of the other government functions that have pretty much shut-down, I find it perplexing that the CRA is considered an essential service.



Lol  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

jabberwocky said:


> Considering all of the other government functions that have pretty much shut-down, I find it perplexing that the CRA is considered an essential service.


It is an essential service and with an additional 381 billion dollars of debt it is becoming even more important (from the point of view of the government)


----------



## CanuckTravlr

As expected, the government just announced that the US/Canada land border closure will be extended to at least January 21, 2021.  So starting next month, any extensions to travel restrictions for either US or international travel beyond January 21, 2021 will now occur on the same date.









						Canada-U.S. land border closure extended again, to Jan. 21, 2021
					

The COVID-19 travel restrictions in place at the Canada-U.S. land border are being extended another month, and will now remain in effect until Jan. 21, 2021, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Friday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## rapmarks

A 72 year old Canadian was hit (and run) on his bike  on the four lane road that runs by our subdivision and died from his injuries this past weekend


----------



## CanuckTravlr

rapmarks said:


> A 72 year old Canadian was hit (and run) on his bike  on the four lane road that runs by our subdivision and died from his injuries this past weekend



Very sad and obviously devastating for his family.  Making arrangements will likely be that much more complicated by the pandemic and the fact any family members returning with him will have to endure a 14-day quarantine before meeting up with anyone here at home.  What city was this in?


----------



## rapmarks

CanuckTravlr said:


> Very sad and obviously devastating for his family.  Making arrangements will likely be that much more complicated by the pandemic and the fact any family members returning with him will have to endure a 14-day quarantine before meeting up with anyone here at home.  What city was this in?


Estero Florida, south of fort Myers, then Bonita springs is south then Naples .  I heard it happened very early in morning. The bike lane is  small, cars go 60, speed limit 45.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

I found an article on the accident that said he had ridden over 12,000 miles, this year alone. That’s a lot of riding.  Accidents like this are the reason I won’t ride on the road.  There are too many distracted drivers and I’m fortunate to have a trail near me and this winter I’m making an effort to ride on a stationary bike we’ve got.  It is great way to exercise and easier on the knees than running.


----------



## Tacoma

Clearly a vey experienced cyclist. Likely driver error that ended up costing his life. Very sad.


----------



## Ironwood

Very sad to hear, as it could well have been me!  Although, as just a recreational cyclist I haven't' put anywhere near the same clicks on my hybrid road bike!   I rediscovered cycling about 10 years ago as my OA knees would no longer let me jog or hike any real distance.  But, I stay away from roads without bike lanes and prefer dedicated bike paths.  I have been clipped or brushed by a truck mirror and had drivers purposely cut very close.  There is a disturbing road rage in some elements out there, and someone on a bike just can't jostle with a truck or car.   Ride safe!


----------



## rapmarks

Ironwood said:


> Very sad to hear, as it could well have been me!  Although, as just a recreational cyclist I haven't' put anywhere near the same clicks on my hybrid road bike!   I rediscovered cycling about 10 years ago as my OA knees would no longer let me jog or hike any real distance.  But, I stay away from roads without bike lanes and prefer dedicated bike paths.  I have been clipped or brushed by a truck mirror and had drivers purposely cut very close.  There is a disturbing road rage in some elements out there, and someone on a bike just can't jostle with a truck or car.   Ride safe!


Narrow bike lane


----------



## easyrider

I was hoping that the border would open by mid May so we could ride our motorcycles to Alaska. We had to scrap two trips into or through Canada in 2020. The way its going we might get too bleeping old to go on our ride. 

Its a bummer about the bike rider. Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Bill


----------



## DannyTS

I read that the snow birds may get their vaccines sooner in Florida than in Canada. It is just a discussion though.


----------



## AJCts411

DannyTS said:


> I read that the snow birds may get their vaccines sooner in Florida than in Canada. It is just a discussion though.



Quite possibly the majority of the world might given the inept handling of the vaccine fiasco. Hillier slipped a few weeks after he was appointed, "most" "fall 2022" was his words and since then he has been corrected by his handlers.


----------



## DannyTS

AJCts411 said:


> Quite possibly the majority of the world might given the inept handling of the vaccine fiasco. Hillier slipped a few weeks after he was appointed, "most" "fall 2022" was his words and since then he has been corrected by his handlers.


One small example, pharmacies are offering help. It defies logic that they are not using all possible channels.  I know, they only had few months to prepare .
Unbelievable. 










						Canada’s pharmacies ‘ready and willing’ to join coronavirus vaccination effort  | Globalnews.ca
					

Shoppers Drug Mart Corp. and London Drugs Ltd. say they have had conversations with the federal and provincial governments about co-operating on vaccine distribution.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## pharmacistking

DannyTS said:


> One small example, pharmacies are offering help. It defies logic that they are not using all possible channels.  I know, they only had few months to prepare .
> Unbelievable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s pharmacies ‘ready and willing’ to join coronavirus vaccination effort  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Shoppers Drug Mart Corp. and London Drugs Ltd. say they have had conversations with the federal and provincial governments about co-operating on vaccine distribution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


For the pharmacy part, it's mostly due to supply issues. 

We have a very low dose supply for the foreseeable future. I believe when Janssen and AstraZeneca vaccines are approved somewhere in March or April our supply issue will be resolved and then Canadian pharmacist will be there to vaccinate the masses.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

AJCts411 said:


> Quite possibly the majority of the world might given the inept handling of the vaccine fiasco. Hillier slipped a few weeks after he was appointed, "most" "fall 2022" was his words and since then he has been corrected by his handlers.



Too many cooks “in the soup” / and they all have their own “ silo thinking “ issues.

****
maybe by the time “ the experts”  get the vaccine distribution plans sorted out
Ontario will let folks  go skiing and we can go to Niagara Falls and see the Christmas Light displays
turned back on.
LOL


----------



## CanuckTravlr

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Too many cooks “in the soup” / and they all have their own “ silo thinking “ issues.
> 
> ****
> maybe by the time “ the experts”  get the vaccine distribution plans sorted out
> Ontario will let folks  go skiing and we can go to Niagara Falls and see the Christmas Light displays
> turned back on.
> LOL



I wouldn't put any money down on lift tickets, nor book anything in Niagara Falls anytime soon, unless you are talking about skiing or seeing the Christmas Lights this time NEXT year.  In which case, you might have a shot.  I think you might see some loosening of the borders by the middle of the year, but not a full opening.  Even that will depend upon a significant reduction in new cases, both abroad and here at home, and particularly in the USA.  It isn't so much about what we want, as it is about what has to change.

If we do the math, we need roughly 75 million shots to give everyone in the country a double-shot of one of the vaccines.  However, it will never get to 100%.  If we could ideally get to around 70% inoculated, then you need over 50 million doses.  If you aimed for the end of September 2021, that is in excess of 185,000 inoculations per day, seven days a week.  Even if we get the pharmacists involved I suspect that will be a big order.  And that is assuming they can actually get the distribution kinks worked out!!

So I'm not counting on skiing or going to Niagara Falls anytime soon!!


----------



## jabberwocky

CanuckTravlr said:


> I wouldn't put any money down on lift tickets, nor book anything in Niagara Falls anytime soon, unless you are talking about skiing or seeing the Christmas Lights this time NEXT year.  In which case, you might have a shot.  I think you might see some loosening of the borders by the middle of the year, but not a full opening.  Even that will depend upon a significant reduction in new cases, both abroad and here at home, and particularly in the USA.  It isn't so much about what we want, as it is about what has to change.
> 
> If we do the math, we need roughly 75 million shots to give everyone in the country a double-shot of one of the vaccines.  However, it will never get to 100%.  If we could ideally get to around 70% inoculated, then you need over 50 million doses.  If you aimed for the end of September 2021, that is in excess of 185,000 inoculations per day, seven days a week.  Even if we get the pharmacists involved I suspect that will be a big order.  And that is assuming they can actually get the distribution kinks worked out!!
> 
> So I'm not counting on skiing or going to Niagara Falls anytime soon!!



I've moved my post to the Covid forum to prevent this thread from going off track.  See my response here.

BTW: can you still walk around the Niagra Falls area?  I know the museums are closed.  I'm going to be flying back to Toronto tomorrow and taking my oldest kid along so my DW won't have to deal with 4 kids doing online school for the week.  I figure it would make a good excursion day to take him to see the falls on the weekend.


----------



## CanuckTravlr

jabberwocky said:


> Pharmacies aren’t the most effective way to push vaccines out to the general population. They will have to do the mass vaccination clinics likely being staffed by nurses.
> 
> My DW was involved in the H1N1 vaccination effort during the 2009 pandemic. She said that during her 8 hour shift she would vaccinate about 45 people.
> 
> What makes those clinics work is that you have a steady flow of people coming through and they can sit in a larger area where they can be observed for 15 minutes after the jab separately from the nurse giving the injection. On site nursing home visits take much longer since the nurse typically has to move from room to give the shot, and then stay there while they wait for the 15 minute period to elapse.
> 
> 185,000 people per day sounds like a lot, but even if you assume 35 people per day per nurse, that would be around 5300 staff working each day (this is a high estimate since some of the vaccines only require one dose). I also think that once we get those over age 45 vaccinated (population of 17 million in Canada) the justification for lockdowns goes away since the virus does discriminate against those of advanced age. We will probably start to see much lower hospitalization and ICU use in March.
> 
> I desperately want this to succeed. The biggest problem Canada will face is that we have been slow on procurement. We got a few small shipments for our photo-ops, but our deliveries really won’t ramp up until Q2. Consider that the US has distributed over 12 million vaccines so far (and they are behind schedule). On a per capita basis that would be equivalent to Canada sending out around 1.2 million vs. Less than 250,000 sent out so far. Israel is done an incredible job with over 8.8% of their population already having received the first dose.
> 
> On a side note, DW has put her name forward to help with the vaccination campaign here in Alberta (Alberta Health sent out a call yesterday). We will need all hands on deck to make the roll-out successful.



Lots of good commentary in your response, although I respectfully disagree with some of it.  However, I won't reply further, since this then takes this topic off on a tangent (even if a relevant tangent) and becomes more a discussion about the handling of the virus here in Canada and less about the Canadian border and how long it might be closed.  Obviously those are linked issues, but really should be separate threads, IMO.

If we want to have a discussion about availability and distribution of vaccines, availability of nurses, injection methodology, timelines, or whether the vaccine discriminates against the elderly (they may be more vulnerable, and co-morbidities may cause more severe outcomes, but the virus itself does not discriminate), then we risk this topic being moved to the Covid-19 forum, which I would prefer not to happen.  If you want to open a thread in the Covid-19 forum, I would be happy to engage in a discussion there.


----------



## jabberwocky

CanuckTravlr said:


> Lots of good commentary in your response, although I respectfully disagree with some of it.  However, I won't reply further, since this then takes this topic off on a tangent (even if a relevant tangent) and becomes more a discussion about the handling of the virus here in Canada and less about the Canadian border and how long it might be closed.  Obviously those are linked issues, but really should be separate threads, IMO.
> 
> If we want to have a discussion about availability and distribution of vaccines, availability of nurses, injection methodology, timelines, or whether the vaccine discriminates against the elderly (they may be more vulnerable, and co-morbidities may cause more severe outcomes, but the virus itself does not discriminate), then we risk this topic being moved to the Covid-19 forum, which I would prefer not to happen.  If you want to open a thread in the Covid-19 forum, I would be happy to engage in a discussion there.


Good point.  I've created a new thread and moved my response there to keep this thread from going off-track.


----------



## moonstone

jabberwocky said:


> BTW: can you still walk around the Niagra Falls area? I know the museums are closed. I'm going to be flying back to Toronto tomorrow and taking my oldest kid along so my DW won't have to deal with 4 kids doing online school for the week. I figure it would make a good excursion day to take him to see the falls on the weekend.



We were there (Canadian side only, obviously) in November for our Anniversary. We did a lot of walking around at the Falls and on Clifton Hill on the first day (a Friday) but noticed many of the folks were not social distancing and not wearing masks.  We decided to drive to nearby areas (Whirlpool, gardens, Niagara on The Lake) and only got out to walk around if the place wasn't crowded, which most were not. Many restaurants were open (this was before the tighter lockdown) but with limited indoor seating capacity.


~Diane


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## moonstone

DannyTS said:


> I read that the snow birds may get their vaccines sooner in Florida than in Canada. It is just a discussion though.



I also read that, but took it to mean that American Snowbirds could get their shots in Florida, Texas or Arizona instead of waiting until they return to their home in the northern states in the spring.  I don't know that the US will vaccinate Canadian tourists ahead of their own citizens, but who knows.

Our oldest DS is likely getting his vaccination in the US within a few weeks, certainly a lot faster than what he'd get it at home in Ontario. He works mainly from home for a large US based company with it's head office just outside of Nashville. His company's HR Dept. sent out an email the other day advising all employees (Canadian & American) that the company is bringing in medical personnel on a specific day (to be determined) to vaccinate all the employees at the head and main branch offices.  The email specifically mentioned that the Canadian employees would be able to fly down for the shot (then return 21 or whatever, days later for the booster) if they wished. Since DH has a US work visa and is in a class of (sort of) essential workers he doesn't even need to quarantine upon arrival back in Canada. He is now wondering about the negative Covid test requirement for his return, but says he doesn't think he'd have any trouble getting one and the trouble is well worth the earlier vaccination date. 


~Diane


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## DannyTS

moonstone said:


> I also read that, but took it to mean that American Snowbirds could get their shots in Florida, Texas or Arizona instead of waiting until they return to their home in the northern states in the spring.  I don't know that the US will vaccinate Canadian tourists ahead of their own citizens, but who knows.
> 
> Our oldest DS is likely getting his vaccination in the US within a few weeks, certainly a lot faster than what he'd get it at home in Ontario. He works mainly from home for a large US based company with it's head office just outside of Nashville. His company's HR Dept. sent out an email the other day advising all employees (Canadian & American) that the company is bringing in medical personnel on a specific day (to be determined) to vaccinate all the employees at the head and main branch offices.  The email specifically mentioned that the Canadian employees would be able to fly down for the shot (then return 21 or whatever, days later for the booster) if they wished. Since DH has a US work visa and is in a class of (sort of) essential workers he doesn't even need to quarantine upon arrival back in Canada. He is now wondering about the negative Covid test requirement for his return, but says he doesn't think he'd have any trouble getting one and the trouble is well worth the earlier vaccination date.
> 
> 
> ~Diane


Now it starts to make sense why they did not start the vaccination solely based on age and medical conditions, it was  because they had to follow corporate and political interests. "Listen to the science" we have been told. What a bunch of nonsense.


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## Breezy52

Arizona now has highest covid rate in the world, Yikes!



			https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/01/05/arizona-has-highest-rate-covid-19-in-the-world.html


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## CanuckTravlr

Prime Minister Trudeau announces that the Canadian border closure will again be extended to at least February 21st.









						Canada-U.S. land border closure extended to Feb. 21
					

The COVID-19 travel restrictions in place at the Canada-U.S. land border are being extended for another month and will remain in effect until Feb. 21, 2021, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced on Tuesday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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