# HRC to acquire Welk Resorts [MERGED]



## dmelcher13

This could be interesting...


Dave


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## Redien

Just got an email about this from the Welk Side. Pretty much looks the same as the one from the HRC side.

Not sure how to feel about this.


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## alwysonvac

Marriott Vacations Worldwide Announces Agreement to Acquire Welk Resorts For Approximately $430 Million
					

/PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacations Worldwide (NYSE: VAC) ("MVW" or the "Company") announced today that it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire...




					www.prnewswire.com
				




_ORLANDO, Fla., Jan. 26, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacations Worldwide (NYSE:  VAC) ("MVW" or the "Company") announced today that it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire Welk Resorts ("Welk"), one of the largest independent timeshare companies in North America, for approximately $430 million, including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021._

_Welk opened its first vacation ownership resort in 1984 and today operates a portfolio of eight upper upscale vacation ownership resorts located primarily in highly sought-after West Coast U.S. vacation markets, with nearly 1,400 keys, 55,000 Owners and over three years of built inventory. MVW intends to rebrand all Welk resorts as Hyatt Residence Club resorts once obtaining all necessary approvals, dramatically increasing Hyatt Residence Club's footprint while providing the Company substantial future growth opportunities._

_"Welk's premier resorts are in highly desirable vacation markets, including San Diego, Breckenridge, Lake Tahoe and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, and will be a nice addition to our footprint," said Stephen P. Weisz, chief executive officer of MVW. "The acquisition will expand Hyatt Residence Club's geographic presence while providing substantial future growth opportunities. By leveraging our high-value marketing and sales channels and leveraging more efficient rental distribution channels, we expect to be able to drive higher contract sales and expand margins......."_


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## Pathways

So for all those complaining (HRC) about the loss of Northstar Lodge, I guess you were heard! It's back!


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## dioxide45

More here;


			https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/de500c27-bb83-4e4b-a0e9-96a776dd5689


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## dmelcher13

Where is a good place to learn more about the Welk system?

Is it points based or deeded ownership?

The vast majority of HRC ownership is deeded weeks.

I'm curious if the Welk system will be rolled into the HPC trust in an attempt to resuscitate Hyatt's attempt at a points system?


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## ocdb8r

...the plot thickens.

The most interesting aspect of all of this is why MVW chose to acquire this into the Hyatt Brand (which many have been speculating they are struggling to find a way to fold in with the Marriott/Vistana combo).  Makes one wonder what their plans are for Hyatt. 

I can't see how from a Hyatt perspective this can been seen as anything but good.  It's an investment in the brand and system and adds some nice locations.  I can only hope us regular Hyatt weeks owners will get some sort of internal access (given Welk also has a large amount of weeks based owners, I suspect something will be worked out).  To me the combo makes sense as little to no overlap in the portfolio.

From the Welk perspective, I would also largely see as a positive, but I understand some consternation being swallowed by the MVW conglomerate.  Welk's sales tactics leave a lot to be desired, but I believe their resort management has been pretty good and efficient.  One would hope some benefit from scale, but MVW will likely skim that off for profit and owners will have to pray they keep maintenance fees reasonable.

#grabspopcorn



dmelcher13 said:


> Is it points based or deeded ownership?
> 
> The vast majority of HRC ownership is deeded weeks.
> 
> I'm curious if the Welk system will be rolled into the HPC trust in an attempt to resuscitate Hyatt's attempt at a points system?



It's both like Hyatt.  I don't have the numbers, but it evolved similar to Hyatt (started as pure weeks and then created a trust and started selling points).  I think Welk got going on the "points" bandwagon sooner and I think has been more successful in converting their weeks owners over, so they likely have a different ratio than Hyatt (who's points product has bombed).  Suspect they will "merge" (via some internal trading agreement) the two point systems and create some sort of overlay for weeks owners to access (contrary to the way Hyatt worked, I think MVW realizes there is a greater benefit (in potential sales/conversions) to co-opting weeks owners rather than marginalizing them.  If anything, they must have realized that deeded weeks owners control many of the most prime weeks and the only way to get them into the larger "system" is to find a way to co-opt us.


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## TBipp

I think this also makes sense regarding locations to add to HRC.  I'm pumped even though it may be awhile.  I did find it puzzling that the press release mentions New Mexico; however, the Welk Resort Locations webpage does not show a New Mexico resort.


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## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> ...the plot thickens.
> 
> The most interesting aspect of all of this is why MVW chose to acquire this into the Hyatt Brand (which many have been speculating they are struggling to find a way to fold in with the Marriott/Vistana combo).  Makes one wonder what their plans are for Hyatt.
> 
> I can't see how from a Hyatt perspective this can been seen as anything but good.  It's an investment in the brand and system and adds some nice locations.  I can only hope us regular Hyatt weeks owners will get some sort of internal access (given Welk also has a large amount of weeks based owners, I suspect something will be worked out).  To me the combo makes sense as little to no overlap in the portfolio.
> 
> From the Welk perspective, I would also largely see as a positive, but I understand some consternation being swallowed by the MVW conglomerate.  Welk's sales tactics leave a lot to be desired, but I believe their resort management has been pretty good and efficient.  One would hope some benefit from scale, but MVW will likely skim that off for profit and owners will have to pray they keep maintenance fees reasonable.
> 
> #grabspopcorn


MVW has previously indicated a desire to expand the Hyatt residence Club network. THey were looking to invest heavily into this before COVID hit. This seems to be a good move to increase the portfolio of resorts pretty quickly. They probably never considered trying to fold Welk into Vistana or Marriott.


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## dioxide45

TBipp said:


> I think this also makes sense regarding locations to add to HRC.  I'm pumped even though it may be awhile.  I did find it puzzling that the press release mentions New Mexico; however, the Welk Resort Locations webpage does not show a New Mexico resort.


Perhaps some kind of affiliation? Odd, it is listed as part of "Experiences Collection", which also include other non Welk properties and some Disney Vacation Club properties.






						» El Corazon de Santa Fe
					






					thecollection.welkresorts.com
				










						El Corazon de Santa Fe | Luxury Resorts
					

1Floor plans are intended to give a general indication of the proposed layout only. The floor plans provided may not represent all of the various floor plans that may be available at the property.  2Features, furnishings and amenities are subject to change.  3Off site. Made available by a...




					welkresorts.com


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## Pathways

TBipp said:


> I think this also makes sense regarding locations to add to HRC.  I'm pumped even though it may be awhile.  I did find it puzzling that the press release mentions New Mexico; however, the Welk Resort Locations webpage does not show a New Mexico resort.


Then in what State is Sante Fe?


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## dioxide45




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## dioxide45

I would suspect any unsold Welk inventory will be conveyed over to the Hyatt Points trust and sold as pure points and not weeks ownership?


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## heathpack

I got this email from Hyatt today too.

Im assuming mostly this is a vehicle to sell their truly awful points system.  Which is something of a negative for weeks owners because anything that gives that system traction is not good for those of us who refuse to play.  Unless Hyatt sees an opportunity to correct problems with HPP such that weeks owners would want to buy in.

If there’s access to the Welk weeks owners inventory, then great for everybody- it’s a win win.  But the one thing I learned from the HPP rollout is that HRC does not seem to be interested in any kind of win-win scenario.  So I’m honestly not optimistic that this Welk purchase will actually be of benefit to existing owners.


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## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> I would suspect any unsold Welk inventory will be conveyed over to the Hyatt Points trust and sold as pure points and not weeks ownership.



Except that Welk has their own points system...no idea how much they have already conveyed into it, but would suspect most.

One other interesting wrinkle, Welk shifted to RCI in the last few years (maintaining II as an option, but all their points product inventory in RCI).


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## dsmrp

dmelcher13 said:


> Where is a good place to learn more about the Welk system?
> 
> Is it points based or deeded ownership?
> 
> The vast majority of HRC ownership is deeded weeks.
> 
> I'm curious if the Welk system will be rolled into the HPC trust in an attempt to resuscitate Hyatt's attempt at a points system?


There was brief speculation in a Vistana thread, about a MVC DC points overlay to offer access to HRC properties. However discussion was mainly about cross access between MVC and Vistana owners .


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## dioxide45

I am sure that the Hyatt and Welk sales reps will already be telling people to buy today to guarantee you can book Hyatt or Welk resorts in the future. What you own now won't do any good unless you buy more!


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## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> There was brief speculation in a Vistana thread, about a MVC DC points overlay to offer access to HRC properties. However discussion was mainly about cross access between MVC and Vistana owners .


I think that speculation has been killed off by several calls and interviews made by Marriott Vacations Worldwide executives. They have pretty much said that any integration between Marriott and Vistana will exclude Hyatt and Hyatt will always stand alone. Likely one reason they are looking to expand it through this acquisition.


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## rickandcindy23

That means Welk will go back to II and that is a good thing.  What happens to resorts like Eagle Point in Vail that are managed by Welk but not Welk quality?  We have friends who own at Eagle Point, prime ski.


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## lilliand

We are Welk Owners. They have resorts in San Diego (3), Palm Springs, Lake Tahoe (2), Cabo San Lucas, Breckenridge and Branson. We love their resorts and have also stayed at Hyatt Residence Clubs and Marriotts. I would say they are at the same level as the HRC. They were mostly all Elite resorts with Interval but they switched to RCI a few years ago as RCI Platinum.  They also have 16 other resorts that you can book using Welk points without an exchange fee that they call the Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts.  Those are in Carlsbad, Kauai (2), Tahoe Vista, Santa Fe, Redmond OR, Olympic Valley, Scottsdale, Sedona, Beaver Creek, Cave Creek, Ko Olina, Lake Buena Vista (2), Blanchard ID and Avon.  Not sure what will happen with those in the transition.


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## heathpack

lilliand said:


> We are Welk Owners. They have resorts in San Diego (3), Palm Springs, Lake Tahoe (2), Cabo San Lucas, Breckenridge and Branson. We love their resorts and have also stayed at Hyatt Residence Clubs and Marriotts. I would say they are at the same level as the HRC. They were mostly all Elite resorts with Interval but they switched to RCI a few years ago as RCI Platinum.  They also have 16 other resorts that you can book using Welk points without an exchange fee that they call the Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts.  Those are in Carlsbad, Kauai (2), Tahoe Vista, Santa Fe, Redmond OR, Olympic Valley, Scottsdale, Sedona, Beaver Creek, Cave Creek, Ko Olina, Lake Buena Vista (2), Blanchard ID and Avon.  Not sure what will happen with those in the transition.



My email from Hyatt says the Welk purchase adds 8 properties to Hyatt.  So it sounds like it’s the Welk-owned resorts (although you list nine).  My email refers to “Western U.S. destinations like the desert oasis of California’s Coachella Valley and the hills of San Diego’s scenic Escondido region to the Sea of Cortez in Cabo San Lucas.”

So no mention of anything that sounds like the experiences collection in the email sent to HRC owners.


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## dioxide45

According to the investor call ( I missed all but the last few minutes), it seems Welk has about 75% of their owners in points and the rest are weeks. They have been in points for about 15 years, much longer than Hyatt.


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## Shankilicious

dmelcher13 said:


> Where is a good place to learn more about the Welk system?
> 
> Is it points based or deeded ownership?
> 
> The vast majority of HRC ownership is deeded weeks.
> 
> I'm curious if the Welk system will be rolled into the HPC trust in an attempt to resuscitate Hyatt's attempt at a points system?


In the other timeshares forum. I made a huge post explaining as much about Welk as possible. 
Welk is 99% points. Very few deeded/fixed weeks exist and they've been offering a premium to fixed week owners to convert them to points. MFs are similar so I'm curious/anxious/annoyed at this acquisition.....


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## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> So no mention of anything that sounds like the experiences collection in the email sent to HRC owners.


This may just be some special arrangement facilitated through RCI?


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## dsmrp

dioxide45 said:


> More here;
> 
> 
> https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/de500c27-bb83-4e4b-a0e9-96a776dd5689


In this Marriott web page flyer, in the Welk overview section it says there's 3+ yrs of built inventory. What does that mean? 3 x 52 unsold unit weeks? Maybe to seed an HPP program?

Be interesting to see how Marriott will assign club points value to Welk properties.


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## heathpack

So really what does this add for HRC owners?

Palm Springs- II trades are a dime a dozen
Escondido- nice resorts but meh
Cabo- Sirenia del Mar, I’ve stayed there and liked it but Mexico trades are also easy
Branson- no interest personally but I know it appeals to many
Tahoe and Breckenridge are already in the system

So really this is not great for HRC owners.  Welk owners have some sweet additions that are difficult places to trade into- Carmel CA, Key West, Aspen.  But HRC owners get only the addition of places that are easy trades, and the Welk owners now also vying for booking at the HRC resorts that we have had pretty good access to previously.

Ugh.  I am not optimistic


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## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> In this Marriott web page flyer, in the Welk overview section it says there's 3+ yrs of built inventory. What does that mean? 3 x 52 unsold unit weeks? Maybe to seed an HPP program?
> 
> Be interesting to see how Marriott will assign club points value to Welk properties.


It means that they have enough inventory to continue selling for three more years at anticipated sales volume.


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## dioxide45

Also according to their map, they think Branson is in northern Arkansas instead of southern Missouri?


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## alexadeparis

@heathpack agreed. I might go to Lake Tahoe, Palm Springs or Cabo, but I already have access to all those through other systems so not much value for me.


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## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> So really what does this add for HRC owners?
> 
> Palm Springs- II trades are a dime a dozen
> Escondido- nice resorts but meh
> Cabo- Sirenia del Mar, I’ve stayed there and liked it but Mexico trades are also easy
> Branson- no interest personally but I know it appeals to many
> Tahoe and Breckenridge are already in the system
> 
> So really this is not great for HRC owners.  Welk owners have some sweet additions that are difficult places to trade into- Carmel CA, Key West, Aspen.  But HRC owners get only the addition of places that are easy trades, and the Welk owners now also vying for booking at the HRC resorts that we have had pretty good access to previously.
> 
> Ugh.  I am not optimistic


I would say it add for VAC's ability to sell to more owners. They will leverage Hyatt's current portfolio to upsell Welk owners into the system to access those resorts. They probably aren't as concerned about current Hyatt owners.


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## dmelcher13

heathpack said:


> So really what does this add for HRC owners?
> 
> Palm Springs- II trades are a dime a dozen
> Escondido- nice resorts but meh
> Cabo- Sirenia del Mar, I’ve stayed there and liked it but Mexico trades are also easy
> Branson- no interest personally but I know it appeals to many
> Tahoe and Breckenridge are already in the system
> 
> So really this is not great for HRC owners.  Welk owners have some sweet additions that are difficult places to trade into- Carmel CA, Key West, Aspen.  But HRC owners get only the addition of places that are easy trades, and the Welk owners now also vying for booking at the HRC resorts that we have had pretty good access to previously.
> 
> Ugh.  I am not optimistic



In all likelihood, these resorts will be made unavailable for exchanging in Interval. Similar to how Hyatt owners currently can't see Hyatt exchanges in Interval.


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## heathpack

dmelcher13 said:


> In all likelihood, these resorts will be made unavailable for exchanging in Interval. Similar to how Hyatt owners currently can't see Hyatt exchanges in Interval.



Im not talking about trading into those specific resorts, I’m talking about trading into those locations.  Easy peasy.  I don’t need more Hyatt inventory to stay in a timeshare in Palm Springs or Cabo.  I can do that quite readily now.

Vs Welk owners effectively can’t trade into Carmel, Aspen or Key West now.  So the purchase by HRC is a win for them.


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## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> They probably aren't as concerned about current Hyatt owners.



Bingo.

They are spinning this to HRC owners as a positive to us.  But it’s not.


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## Shankilicious

heathpack said:


> Im not talking about trading into those specific resorts, I’m talking about trading into those locations. Easy peasy. I don’t need more Hyatt inventory to stay in a timeshare in Palm Springs or Cabo. I can do that quite readily now.
> 
> Vs Welk owners effectively can’t trade into Carmel, Aspen or Key West now. So the purchase by HRC is a win for them.


Depends how much we have to pay to access Hyatt inventory or how that will play out. If they make us pay several grand to be able to trade into Hyatt, and then change our point system, that's gonna suck. 
Right now I can tell you as a Welk owner, I REALLY don't like how much a point variance there is between all the seasons. Only Tahoe and Breckenridge have legit seasons for Welk properties and that basically ski/summer and mud season. Not freaking SEVEN..... Good lord.....

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I am sure that the Hyatt and Welk sales reps will already be telling people to buy today to guarantee you can book Hyatt or Welk resorts in the future. What you own now won't do any good unless you buy more!


Well, MVW did say it will “create future growth opportunities” . That’s 55,000 new customers to sell to.


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## Pathways

heathpack said:


> So really what does this add for HRC owners?


As a multi week owner, I would maintain this is a HUGE addition.  

This may not change a thing in my current usage, but this is a huge vote moving forward about the viability and status of the HRC.  

Instead of wondering if our little 'gem' will wilt and die, this should give us all reassurance of our current resorts and value.


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## sjsharkie

Yuck.

I will say I love the Northstar property. It is almost ski in ski out and upscale - originally developed by Hyatt so it is nice... nicer than High Sierra which I frequent most often.

However, I agree with others. Welk access is not that desirable for me and I'm sure the future changes to the Hyatt program will not be favorable.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## ocdb8r

heathpack said:


> Im not talking about trading into those specific resorts, I’m talking about trading into those locations.  Easy peasy.  I don’t need more Hyatt inventory to stay in a timeshare in Palm Springs or Cabo.  I can do that quite readily now.
> 
> Vs Welk owners effectively can’t trade into Carmel, Aspen or Key West now.  So the purchase by HRC is a win for them.



I don't think this is a fair assessment.  Welk owners still have access to II and with my non-Hyatt account I have no problem getting into HRC's Key West in all but peak season (and I often trade in as it's cheaper than using my HRC points).  There's nothing overly special about Aspen over the other ski resorts, which both have decent inventory at.  Sure, Carmel is unique and a fairly difficult trade, but to me ANY extra inventory in Tahoe (especially at the Northstar location) is a big plus (given it's a near year-round resort consistently difficult to get into, even within the HRC system) and I like the addition of Santa Fe and Cabo.  Escondido is also a very nice add for golfers and near year-round good weather.  Not my thing, but I can imagine some owners will be happy to have it.

I'm not jumping up and down or anything, but I don't see it as a net negative in any way....regardless it's an investment in the system which to me is good news given it's clearly going to be an orphan in MWC (and I was more worried they'd just marginalize it).


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## heathpack

@Shankilicious totally agree.  So far HPP has been just a terrible obvious money grab by HRC with very deceptive sales practices.  Definitely a Caveat Emptor scenario.  You are forewarned.

The only upside I see in this for HRC owners is if they decide this could be a good time to revamp HPP into something more palatable.  I’m not super optimistic about that but they really do need to get more Hyatt weeks inventory into their HPP system.  

So there’s the tiniest glimmer that HPP gets better which will help sell to the new Welk pool of prospects.


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## alameda94501

While it may not be a popular notion here, when I looked at the Orange County filings it seems like HPC is a success, at least by the number of Portfolio Points they've sold. Probably a combination of shocking hard sell techniques unseen by Hyatt legacy owners with dazzling properties for new owners, but pre-COVID I was projecting they would actually run out of Portfolio Points by then end of 2020.

This could then be rough for HRC legacy owners if Welk is brought in as HPC and not legacy inventory, but we contend with more Welk owners as HPC owners. Even if they share inventory nicely, it basically means there's a lot more mouths to feed in the legacy CUP/LCUP system.

One way to think about HPC is that a few years ago Hyatt took all the dregs of inventory and bought it up, then sold points to it. This made those dregs, that were previously a burden on the developer, more fully utilized, so that HRC legacy owners had to compete more for desirable inventory in CUP, but nothing unfair - it was just we had it better when the Developer was suffering with carrying dead inventory, because no one would actively compete on CUP with us.

The Welk resorts are likely going to be like the new phases of WOR and Coconut Plantation. They were snapped up immediately under Hyatt and sold completely as part of HPC Portfolio Points, which as I said above gave the sales people more to sell because they were almost sold out of Points. In the Welk case there are a bunch more Portfolio owners instantly because of the legacy Welk owners.

For our favorite resort Highlands Inn, it means there are more people who can CUP in at six months. Note that if you have a specific resort in mind (like us with HHI) if you had said "yes" to the Portfolio sales shill, you wouldn't be much ahead, just 12mo for a ~10% slice of ORP inventory at HHI (mainly off peak) that you need to activate annually with additional fees to convert.

But it's the added pressure to CUP that is worrisome with the Welk development and any additional HPC growth. More planning ahead and more wait-lists are going to be necessary for Legacy owners like me.


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## travelhacker

alameda94501 said:


> While it may not be a popular notion here, when I looked at the Orange County filings it seems like HPC is a success, at least by the number of Portfolio Points they've sold. Probably a combination of shocking hard sell techniques unseen by Hyatt legacy owners with dazzling properties for new owners, but pre-COVID I was projecting they would actually run out of Portfolio Points by then end of 2020.
> 
> This could then be rough for HRC legacy owners if Welk is brought in as HPC and not legacy inventory, but we contend with more Welk owners as HPC owners. Even if they share inventory nicely, it basically means there's a lot more mouths to feed in the legacy CUP/LCUP system.
> 
> One way to think about HPC is that a few years ago Hyatt took all the dregs of inventory and bought it up, then sold points to it. This made those dregs, that were previously a burden on the developer, more fully utilized, so that HRC legacy owners had to compete more for desirable inventory in CUP, but nothing unfair - it was just we had it better when the Developer was suffering with carrying dead inventory, because no one would actively compete on CUP with us.
> 
> The Welk resorts are likely going to be like the new phases of WOR and Coconut Plantation. They were snapped up immediately under Hyatt and sold completely as part of HPC Portfolio Points, which as I said above gave the sales people more to sell because they were almost sold out of Points. In the Welk case there are a bunch more Portfolio owners instantly because of the legacy Welk owners.
> 
> For our favorite resort Highlands Inn, it means there are more people who can CUP in at six months. Note that if you have a specific resort in mind (like us with HHI) if you had said "yes" to the Portfolio sales shill, you wouldn't be much ahead, just 12mo for a ~10% slice of ORP inventory at HHI (mainly off peak) that you need to activate annually with additional fees to convert.
> 
> But it's the added pressure to CUP that is worrisome with the Welk development and any additional HPC growth. More planning ahead and more wait-lists are going to be necessary for Legacy owners like me.


Slightly off topic -- but you have some of the most insightful posts on TUG. I LOOOOOVED your analysis on HPP.


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## mrbocce

Received e-mail regarding Hyatt's intention to purchase 8 properties from Welk resorts. The properties are known to be of high quality. This appears to be a good thing for the HVC Brand. Some nice locations.

_[Threads merged after reported. <-- SueDonJ]_


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## TravelTime

mrbocce said:


> Received e-mail regarding Hyatt's intention to purchase 8 properties from Welk resorts. The properties are known to be of high quality. This appears to be a good thing for the HVC Brand. Some nice locations.



Which properties are they buying?


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## mrbocce

All 8 of the Welk resorts


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## travelhacker

These are just a few thoughts that I have:

1) I like that MVC is "investing" in HRC.
2) I don't have much interest in the Welk locations. Lake Tahoe is a good add (living in CO, I don't know that I would want to head out there for skiing, but the resorts seem like they are in great locations and look very nice. I may be interested in staying in Santa Fe for a few nights. I have zero interest in Branson, Palm Springs, or Escondido. 
3) I don't have any idea how an overlay would work. I suspect that they will continue to sell brands as is for the next 12-18 months, and we'll gradually start to hear details.
4) I don't like that this will potentially impact availability within HRC. However, I do think this is potentially several years out.


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## GetawaysRus

I've been a Marriott "owner" since 2004. Over the years, it's seemed to me that changes in the timeshare industry tend to benefit the timeshare companies and rarely benefit me.  I put the word owner in parentheses because my rights and power as an owner feel so limited.

I don't own either Hyatt or Welk, but I have stayed at a limited number of resorts in both programs. I find Hyatt to be classy resorts and, to me, many are aspirational trades. In my mind, Hyatt had some exclusivity to it. Welk is OK, but I would place their resorts a rung lower in desirability.

So once again, I view this change as dilution, lowering the value of my ownership. It may become harder for me to trade into Hyatt resorts, and that's unfortunate. If I were a Hyatt owner, I would also not be pleased. Welk owners may be mild winners, however. 

If my initial impression is wrong, and this might benefit me as a Marriott owner, please go ahead and explain how.


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## vacationtime1

My guess:  this is all about enlarging HRC to a sufficient size such that MVC can successfully spin it off as a separate entity.  An acquisition at 5.6 x EBIDTA will strengthen HRC's financial statements and enhance the potential IPO price.

MVC has struggled with what to do with the Hyatt timeshares.  We have previously speculated that it would be sold or spun off.  It is no accident that the acquisition is happening through HRC rather than the Marriott/Vistana group.


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## travelhacker

vacationtime1 said:


> My guess:  this is all about enlarging HRC to a sufficient size such that MVC can successfully spin it off as a separate entity.  An acquisition at 5.6 x EBIDTA will strengthen HRC's financial statements and enhance the potential IPO price.
> 
> MVC has struggled with what to do with the Hyatt timeshares.  We have previously speculated that it would be sold or spun off.  It is no accident that the acquisition is happening through HRC rather than the Marriott/Vistana group.


This makes A LOT of sense.


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## Shankilicious

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=67985&share_type=t&link_source=app[/URL]

This is already going

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## liongate88

What would happen to Welk resorts? Would they go away or be part of Hyatt?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tenga

Think again!
Any HRC owner is delusional to think MVC anything less then its bottom line is to its share holders not HRC/ Welk owners.

"Mergers fail more often than marriages"   If you have experienced a merger from the inside, you may sympathize. 

Strategically speaking, investors prefer takeovers that are likely to lead to cost cutting to those that entail putting different businesses together and trying to increase revenues. Welk is an example of a cost-cutting deal, and one might reasonably expect that, if completed, it will be shown to have created value. However, the deal is so big and complicated that there are many other factors at play, and it is tricky to make any definite prediction about what will happen.

"The view of this TS merger as an exercise in repetitive failure".









						Despite Losses, Marriott Vacations Remains Optimistic as Sales Centers Reopen, Occupancy Returns - hotelbusiness.com
					

ORLANDO, FL—Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation has reported second quarter 2020 financial results and provided an update on business conditions in light of the COVID-19 [...]




					www.hotelbusiness.com
				




So why do do this deal?  MVC has had four years to integrate HRC into its system. What did it conclude? Well 4 years tells me it doesn't fit or work out. So how to go forward?

Only two, well actually three options exist. First do nothing, this stance does nothing to the shareholder bottom line and increased value.  Second option. Expand the brand, keep in mind the expansion still can't get integrated into MVC system.  Third, put this expanded model on the open market to gauge interest to the wealth of the sale into another timeshare system. i.e. who is in the market to expand.  This is the cycle and the path in the timeshare industry.  The timeshare industry — which is led by corporate giants such as Marriott Vacations, Wyndham Destinations Inc., Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. and the Walt Disney Co.’s Disney Vacation Club. Take your best guess who is going to be the next owner or HRC/Welk? Look at past performances to guid you to future sales.  How many times in the past 15 years has ILG/HRC been spun off! I can name 3 off the top of my head! 

In no way can this be construed as a positive sign to any HRC/Welk owner. The only one who benefits is the Marriott shareholder. Pure and simple!
Regards,
Tenga


----------



## heathpack

GetawaysRus said:


> I've been a Marriott "owner" since 2004. Over the years, it's seemed to me that changes in the timeshare industry tend to benefit the timeshare companies and rarely benefit me.  I put the word owner in parentheses because my rights and power as an owner feel so limited.
> 
> I don't own either Hyatt or Welk, but I have stayed at a limited number of resorts in both programs. I find Hyatt to be classy resorts and, to me, many are aspirational trades. In my mind, Hyatt had some exclusivity to it. Welk is OK, but I would place their resorts a rung lower in desirability.
> 
> So once again, I view this change as dilution, lowering the value of my ownership. It may become harder for me to trade into Hyatt resorts, and that's unfortunate. If I were a Hyatt owner, I would also not be pleased. Welk owners may be mild winners, however.
> 
> If my initial impression is wrong, and this might benefit me as a Marriott owner, please go ahead and explain how.



I think the Marriott transition to DC was reasonably fair to existing Marriott weeks owners and that DC is definitely an enhancement to the Marriott system.  Yes, it is expensive but its one of the few points purchases that I can see making sense for some people.  DVC- yes.  MVC DC point- yes.  HPP- no way.  

I've frequently hoped that Hyatt would see the light and move more towards a MVC DC model.


----------



## RunCat

dioxide45 said:


> This may just be some special arrangement facilitated through RCI?


Actually they were week-unit purchases made by Welk; but the units were still managed by the respective companies.   Welk just handled the reservations and communication with the respective properties.


----------



## alwysonvac

Welks also owns weeks at 
Eagle Crest Resort, 
El Corazon de Santa Fe, 
Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara, 
Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North, 
Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort, 
Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley, 
Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge, 
Montane Lodge, and 
Pono Kai Resort 

The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -


			https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
		


For example


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

In our Marriott presentation 2 weeks ago they spoke of possibly selling Hyatt. This is a twist. Better than being sold to Diamond!


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

Tenga said:


> Think again!
> Any HRC owner is delusional to think MVC anything less then its bottom line is to its share holders not HRC/ Welk owners.
> 
> "Mergers fail more often than marriages"   If you have experienced a merger from the inside, you may sympathize.
> 
> Strategically speaking, investors prefer takeovers that are likely to lead to cost cutting to those that entail putting different businesses together and trying to increase revenues. Welk is an example of a cost-cutting deal, and one might reasonably expect that, if completed, it will be shown to have created value. However, the deal is so big and complicated that there are many other factors at play, and it is tricky to make any definite prediction about what will happen.
> 
> "The view of this TS merger as an exercise in repetitive failure".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite Losses, Marriott Vacations Remains Optimistic as Sales Centers Reopen, Occupancy Returns - hotelbusiness.com
> 
> 
> ORLANDO, FL—Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation has reported second quarter 2020 financial results and provided an update on business conditions in light of the COVID-19 [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hotelbusiness.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why do do this deal?  MVC has had four years to integrate HRC into its system. What did it conclude? Well 4 years tells me it doesn't fit or work out. So how to go forward?
> 
> Only two, well actually three options exist. First do nothing, this stance does nothing to the shareholder bottom line and increased value.  Second option. Expand the brand, keep in mind the expansion still can't get integrated into MVC system.  Third, put this expanded model on the open market to gauge interest to the wealth of the sale into another timeshare system. i.e. who is in the market to expand.  This is the cycle and the path in the timeshare industry.  The timeshare industry — which is led by corporate giants such as Marriott Vacations, Wyndham Destinations Inc., Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. and the Walt Disney Co.’s Disney Vacation Club. Take your best guess who is going to be the next owner or HRC/Welk? Look at past performances to guid you to future sales.  How many times in the past 15 years has ILG/HRC been spun off! I can name 3 off the top of my head!
> 
> In no way can this be construed as a positive sign to any HRC/Welk owner. The only one who benefits is the Marriott shareholder. Pure and simple!
> Regards,
> Tenga


makes sense. Marriott just told us they were strongly considering selling Hyatt in our presentation.


----------



## travelhacker

Tucsonadventurer said:


> In our Marriott presentation 2 weeks ago they spoke of possibly selling Hyatt. This is a twist. Better than being sold to Diamond!


I think @Vacation1 nailed it. Hyatt was never a good fit for MVC, but it came with ILG. Buying Welk gives them a system that could be viable on it's own. 

In the short term, they can cut redundant costs with Welk by folding it into their existing operations (as they've already done with HRC). In 3-5 years after they've got some sales under their belts, and travel has mostly normalized, it can be spun off, or it can be a separate division under the wider VAC umbrella that is mostly independent but shares costs with the larger VAC group.


----------



## RunCat

travelhacker said:


> I think @Vacation1 nailed it. Hyatt was never a good fit for MVC, but it came with ILG. Buying Welk gives them a system that could be viable on it's own.
> 
> In the short term, they can cut redundant costs with Welk by folding it into their existing operations (as they've already done with HRC). In 3-5 years after they've got some sales under their belts, and travel has mostly normalized, it can be spun off, or it can be a separate division under the wider VAC umbrella that is mostly independent but shares costs with the larger VAC group.



Tend to agree.  There is probably more similarity between the two products than differences.  Welk owners , through the Experience Collection, already have access to the Hyatt properties in Carlsbad and Scottsdale.


----------



## jjking42

I am checking into Northstar this weekend with HRC points . I wonder what the sales weasel will have to say ? 
I don't see Northstar available very often and I assume that is because Welk owners have a longer booking window than the 6 months we get as HRC Pinon Point owners. I considered buying Welk Platinum Plus points via resale to get better access to Northstar but their MF are much higher than my HRC MF. I live closer to Heavenly Ski resort than Northstar so Marriot Timber lodge would be better fit for me but I dont want full weeks and MVC resale points are not a good value. Honestly I am only 30 minutes from Hevanly and my BIL has a condo in Tahoe city if i want to Ski the north side so I wont be buying anything but i did look into it.


----------



## Shankilicious

jjking42 said:


> I am checking into Northstar this weekend. I wonder what the sales weasel will have to say ?
> I dont see Northsar available very often and I assume that is because Welk owners have a longer bookingwindow than the 6 months we get as HRC Pinon Point owners. I condered buying Welk Platinum Plus points via resale to get better access but thier MF are much hgher than my HRC MF.


Yeah, we can book northstar 15 months out. 
And welk MF is $1500 for 240k points which is mid-low lever two bedroom unit.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## heathpack

RunCat said:


> Tend to agree.  There is probably more similarity between the two products than differences.  Welk owners , through the Experience Collection, already have access to the Hyatt properties in Carlsbad and Scottsdale.



Hyatt Residence Club does not have properties in Carlsbad and Scottsdale.


----------



## PerryKing

Hopefully it will be good for everyone...


----------



## jjking42

Shankilicious said:


> Yeah, we can book northstar 15 months out.
> And welk MF is $1500 for 240k points which is mid-low lever two bedroom unit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on  420K is $ 2,110
IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200


----------



## PerryKing




----------



## travelhacker

jjking42 said:


> I am checking into Northstar this weekend with HRC points . I wonder what the sales weasel will have to say ?
> I don't see Northstar available very often and I assume that is because Welk owners have a longer booking window than the 6 months we get as HRC Pinon Point owners. I considered buying Welk Platinum Plus points via resale to get better access to Northstar but their MF are much higher than my HRC MF. I live closer to Heavenly Ski resort than Northstar so Marriot Timber lodge would be better fit for me but I dont want full weeks and MVC resale points are not a good value. Honestly I am only 30 minutes from Hevanly and my BIL has a condo in Tahoe city if i want to Ski the north side so I wont be buying anything but i did look into it.


My understanding is that there were just 5 units that Hyatt had sold inventory from. The inventory in those 5 units is managed completely separately from Welk inventory.


----------



## Pathways

jjking42 said:


> this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on 420K is $ 2,110
> IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200


Alright, alright, don't rub it in with your $1200 Sedona MF! 

Most HRC MF's are closer to the 2110 than your 1200


----------



## liongate88

alwysonvac said:


> Welks also owns weeks at
> Eagle Crest Resort,
> El Corazon de Santa Fe,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North,
> Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort,
> Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley,
> Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge,
> Montane Lodge, and
> Pono Kai Resort
> 
> The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -
> 
> 
> https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> For example
> 
> View attachment 31549


Would this mean HRC will have access the experience collection also? It purchased only the 8 resorts owned by Welk.


----------



## Shankilicious

jjking42 said:


> this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on 420K is $ 2,110
> IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200
> 
> 
> View attachment 31551
> View attachment 31552


Truth. However, 240k will get you a two bedroom in san diego and Branson. Tahoe and Breck are a lot more but we could go Sunday to Friday for 210k and book 9months out. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## PerryKing

jjking42 said:


> this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on  420K is $ 2,110
> IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200
> 
> 
> View attachment 31551
> View attachment 31552


One thing however regarding  Northstar:  I have always understood that Hyatt actual has ( or controls) very few of the units at the NorthStar property.

Thus explaining the always limited availability.   So is that true ?  Maybe a deal like the one proposed could open thing up more for all members at NorthStar ? 

 Or am I whishing to much or my information is wrong ?


----------



## RunCat

heathpack said:


> Hyatt Residence Club does not have properties in Carlsbad and Scottsdale.


Oops my mistake.  I was thinking of the Four Seasons.


----------



## Pathways

PerryKing said:


> One thing however regarding  Northstar:  I have always understood that Hyatt actual has ( or controls) very few of the units at the NorthStar property.
> 
> Thus explaining the always limited availability.   So is that true ?  Maybe a deal like the one proposed could open thing up more for all members at NorthStar ?
> 
> Or am I whishing to much or my information is wrong ?





travelhacker said:


> My understanding is that there were just 5 units that Hyatt had sold inventory from



I had heard the same info that travelhacker is posting.  There were very few Hyatt units sold


----------



## jjking42

there is two bedroom for 3 night available right now for check on Friday 1/29 on HRC. But if you don't already have lift ticket reservations you probably cant get them. Lots and lots of snow expected this week.


----------



## jjking42

Pathways said:


> Alright, alright, don't rub it in with your $1200 Sedona MF!
> 
> Most HRC MF's are closer to the 2110 than your 1200


I  know Sedona is low . I was was  expecting Welk Northstar to be more in the $1500 range than $ 2100.


----------



## BJRSanDiego

PerryKing said:


> One thing however regarding  Northstar:  I have always understood that Hyatt actual has ( or controls) very few of the units at the NorthStar property.
> 
> Thus explaining the always limited availability.   So is that true ?  Maybe a deal like the one proposed could open thing up more for all members at NorthStar ?
> 
> Or am I whishing to much or my information is wrong ?


I have stayed at Northstar twice when Welk was still associated with Interval.  Both times I thought that the "bones" of Northstar were good but thought that the maintenance and operation of the facility was poor.  No - - the maintenance was very poor and there was a lack of quality touches.  So, perhaps after the acquisition, Northstar will improve.


----------



## jjking42

PerryKing said:


> One thing however regarding  Northstar:  I have always understood that Hyatt actual has ( or controls) very few of the units at the NorthStar property.
> 
> Thus explaining the always limited availability.   So is that true ?  Maybe a deal like the one proposed could open thing up more for all members at NorthStar ?
> 
> Or am I whishing to much or my information is wrong ?


I was hoping for more availability but if HRC member are limited to booking 6 months out and Welk members can book 9- 15 months out we will not see much of a change for prime ski weeks. I guess we could try the request list at 18 months but I have never gotten a match from that.


----------



## Shankilicious

jjking42 said:


> I know Sedona is low . I was was expecting Welk Northstar to be more in the $1500 range than $ 2100.


Maintenance fees for Welk are not based on where you bought/location. There is NO set location or home resort at all with Welk right now. I bought in Branson in 2015. My paperwork says Welk resorts San Diego. It's just points, no specific views or units to own and very few seasons to deal with. Literally no seasons in San Diego, Palm Springs, or Cabo to worry about. Branson has low season of January and February and that's it. It was the simplest system I had researched.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## b2bailey

lilliand said:


> We are Welk Owners. They have resorts in San Diego (3), Palm Springs, Lake Tahoe (2), Cabo San Lucas, Breckenridge and Branson. We love their resorts and have also stayed at Hyatt Residence Clubs and Marriotts. I would say they are at the same level as the HRC. They were mostly all Elite resorts with Interval but they switched to RCI a few years ago as RCI Platinum.  They also have 16 other resorts that you can book using Welk points without an exchange fee that they call the Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts.  Those are in Carlsbad, Kauai (2), Tahoe Vista, Santa Fe, Redmond OR, Olympic Valley, Scottsdale, Sedona, Beaver Creek, Cave Creek, Ko Olina, Lake Buena Vista (2), Blanchard ID and Avon.  Not sure what will happen with those in the transition.


I don't have a horse in this race, but I have stayed at the Escondido (not really San Diego) and the Palm Springs (but not really PS) locations. I would in no way consider those two to be on par with my expectations for a Hyatt location.


----------



## dannybaker

We have three weeks annual in Welk and use the weeks in RCI points always. My only concern is will they leave RCI? Currently you have a choice of either ii or RCI. Worst case I buy another timeshare to trade with RCI. Is Hyatt strictly II?


----------



## fleecer

dannybaker said:


> We have three weeks annual in Welk and use the weeks in RCI points always. My only concern is will they leave RCI? Currently you have a choice of either ii or RCI. Worst case I buy another timeshare to trade with RCI. Is Hyatt strictly II?



Is there an assumption that Welk owners (soon to be HVC) won't be able to continue trading into RCI? Just like Welk allows now with II?


----------



## travelhacker

fleecer said:


> Is there an assumption that Welk owners (soon to be HVC) won't be able to continue trading into RCI? Just like Welk allows now with II?


It really depends. I would imagine there is some contract between Welk and RCI that they will probably let run it's course. I'm guessing it's probably got a few years left.

I believe Welk owners were always able to deposit weeks to either II or RCI and I would imagine that won't change. If you own points I would guess you will be limited to just II inventory whenever the RCI / Welk agreement runs its course.


----------



## Shankilicious

I remember seeing an RCI link on the owners page before the contract with RCI. Well probably just have to pay for the RCI membership if we wanna keep it.
Again, the vast majority of Welk owners are pure points owners.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## fleecer

Might sound odd right now, but as a Welk owner I'm most wondering now if their internal member rental program will likely disappear. This allowed us to reserve then place our reservation into rental using Welk as the renter, essentially splitting the proceeds. This has worked well for us.


----------



## ski_sierra

heathpack said:


> So really what does this add for HRC owners?
> 
> Palm Springs- II trades are a dime a dozen
> Escondido- nice resorts but meh
> Cabo- Sirenia del Mar, I’ve stayed there and liked it but Mexico trades are also easy
> Branson- no interest personally but I know it appeals to many
> Tahoe and Breckenridge are already in the system
> 
> So really this is not great for HRC owners.  Welk owners have some sweet additions that are difficult places to trade into- Carmel CA, Key West, Aspen.  But HRC owners get only the addition of places that are easy trades, and the Welk owners now also vying for booking at the HRC resorts that we have had pretty good access to previously.
> 
> Ugh.  I am not optimistic


I feel the same way. Other than Northstar, I don't find the Welk properties very appealing or interesting to visit compared to other options in those areas.  When I researched Welk, I felt like they added a few appealing resorts so they could sell the unappealing resorts. Their MFs are also extremely high and the points requirements for new resorts are extremely inflated.

Marriott probably loved Welk's approach of bundling lots of junk resorts at inflated points requirements with a few good resorts at reasonable points requirements. The good resorts with low points value are great for sales but since the inventory of the good stuff is so low, most people won't be able to access them. When these members complain, sales can tell them to buy more points to get to higher elite level so they can have better access.


----------



## Shankilicious

ski_sierra said:


> I feel the same way. Other than Northstar, I don't find the Welk properties very appealing or interesting to visit compared to other options in those areas. When I researched Welk, I felt like they added a few appealing resorts so they could sell the unappealing resorts. Their MFs are also extremely high and the points requirements for new resorts are extremely inflated.
> 
> Marriott probably loved Welk's approach of bundling lots of junk resorts at inflated points requirements with a few good resorts at reasonable points requirements. The good resorts with low points value are great for sales but since the inventory of the good stuff is so low, most people won't be able to access them. When these members complain, sales can tell them to buy more points to get to higher elite level so they can have better access.


There is no low inventory for Welk owners. With the exception of Christmas and Valentine's in Tahoe, if I look to book 8-9months out I can get into any resort for at least 5 nights with my 240k annual points.
240k will only get me a two bedroom at San Diego and Branson, a 1BR villa at cabo (800+sqft ocean view) for a week.
Northstar I can get a Sunday to Friday two bedroom plus den during ski season for 220k points. So I don't know what you're talking about with Welk selling junk. Our MF didn't increase any more than other years when they added the collection resorts, or when they added Breckenridge, or when they added two new buildings in Branson and we've never had any special assessment fees.
Only 10-15% of owners have 420k annual points and up which means booking January-March in Tahoe can be done as late as November because EOY owners can't book those months until 60 days out.
It is annoying that Breck costs so many points but I could still do a short stay there with my 240k points. I've never had to worry about booking "as far out as possible" so there's no low inventory issues to speak of unless you're an EOY owner.

Edit: I just checked and I can book next valentines in Breck or Tahoe with multiple room options. And 240k will get me a full week in the studio in Breck. Which is a far cry from a 2BR but still a full week in the newest resort without having to pay extra isn't bad at all.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## dagger1

heathpack said:


> I got this email from Hyatt today too.
> 
> Im assuming mostly this is a vehicle to sell their truly awful points system.  Which is something of a negative for weeks owners because anything that gives that system traction is not good for those of us who refuse to play.  Unless Hyatt sees an opportunity to correct problems with HPP such that weeks owners would want to buy in.
> 
> If there’s access to the Welk weeks owners inventory, then great for everybody- it’s a win win.  But the one thing I learned from the HPP rollout is that HRC does not seem to be interested in any kind of win-win scenario.  So I’m honestly not optimistic that this Welk purchase will actually be of benefit to existing owners.


I agree.


----------



## alwysonvac

liongate88 said:


> Would this mean HRC will have access the experience collection also? It purchased only the 8 resorts owned by Welk.



Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.

From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations

_“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell *the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts* for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021..._​


----------



## Shankilicious

alwysonvac said:


> Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.
> 
> From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations
> 
> _“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell *the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts* for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021..._​


That COULD mean the collections properties that Welk has purchased intervals/weeks at but that's yet to be seen. The brief summary on the Welk owners page says nothing is going to change for Welk Owners or Hyatt Owners immediately.


----------



## heathpack

alwysonvac said:


> Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.
> 
> From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations
> 
> _“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell *the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts* for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021..._​



I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts.  The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract".  Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts".  Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.

From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

bq


travelhacker said:


> I think @Vacation1 nailed it. Hyatt was never a good fit for MVC, but it came with ILG. Buying Welk gives them a system that could be viable on it's own.
> 
> In the short term, they can cut redundant costs with Welk by folding it into their existing operations (as they've already done with HRC). In 3-5 years after they've got some sales under their belts, and travel has mostly normalized, it can be spun off, or it can be a separate division under the wider VAC umbrella that is mostly independent but shares costs with the larger VAC group.





heathpack said:


> I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts.  The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract".  Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts".  Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.
> 
> From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "


I am assuming to use it, we would need to buy into portfolio. I doubt it would be worth it


----------



## gratiem

Nothing to add, just really appreciate everyone's perspective and insights.

Oh and that I need to find $1200 for 2200 points.  I'm doing it wrong.


----------



## alexadeparis

alwysonvac said:


> Welks also owns weeks at
> Eagle Crest Resort,
> El Corazon de Santa Fe,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North,
> Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort,
> Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley,
> Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge,
> Montane Lodge, and
> Pono Kai Resort
> 
> The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -
> 
> 
> https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> For example
> 
> View attachment 31549


I would LOVE to get into the FSA units in Scottsdale. That would be beyond awesome.


----------



## alwysonvac

alwysonvac said:


> *Marriott is *getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.
> 
> From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations
> 
> _“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell *the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts* for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021..._​





heathpack said:


> I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts.  The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract".  Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts".  Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.
> 
> From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "



Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with .

I wrote “Marriott” is getting more than 8 resorts (not Hyatt). I believe the article addressed the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts  (see below).

_*The Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts*_
_“...After the transaction closes, MVW intends to *rebrand the Welk-branded vacation resorts* in California , Colorado , Missouri , New Mexico and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico as Hyatt Residence Club properties. This will bring the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio to 24 upper upscale resorts and complement its existing locations in Arizona, California , Colorado , Florida , Hawaii , Nevada , Puerto Rico and Texas. The process to integrate and rebrand the Welk Resorts properties and products will be a complex, longer-term initiative and subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation...”_​​*The programs and property management*
_“...Welk Resorts opened The Ranahan in Breckenridge, Colo. in early 2020 and *announced management contracts with several resorts *in late 2019 and early 2020 including El Corazon de Santa Fe by Welk Resorts in Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as the Eagle Point Vacation Community in Vail , Colo. *Several years ago, the company also introduced its Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts*, which includes an additional 16 vacation resorts available to Welk Resorts' Platinum Owners, such as the Four Seasons and Disney Vacation Club in desirable locations from Florida to Hawaii....”_​


alwysonvac said:


> Welks also owns weeks at
> Eagle Crest Resort,
> El Corazon de Santa Fe,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara,
> Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North,
> Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort,
> Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley,
> Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge,
> Montane Lodge, and
> Pono Kai Resort
> 
> The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -
> 
> 
> https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> For example
> 
> View attachment 31549




The articles seems to align with Welks Public Report document that I previously posted in this thread which defines the Program.

*From page 6 of 31 (see link in the quote above)*
_“The developer of Welk Resorts Platinum Program (*the "Program*") is Welk Resort Group, Inc., a California corporation, located at 300 Rancheros Drive #450, San Marcos, California 92069. *The Program *is a multi-location time-share plan with accommodations in the following locations (the “Underlying Resorts”):....”_​


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## heathpack

alwysonvac said:


> Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with .
> 
> I wrote “Marriott” is getting more than 8 resorts (not Hyatt). I believe the article addressed the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts  (see below).
> 
> _*The Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts*_
> _“...After the transaction closes, MVW intends to *rebrand the Welk-branded vacation resorts* in California , Colorado , Missouri , New Mexico and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico as Hyatt Residence Club properties. This will bring the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio to 24 upper upscale resorts and complement its existing locations in Arizona, California , Colorado , Florida , Hawaii , Nevada , Puerto Rico and Texas. The process to integrate and rebrand the Welk Resorts properties and products will be a complex, longer-term initiative and subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation...”_​​*The programs and property management*
> _“...Welk Resorts opened The Ranahan in Breckenridge, Colo. in early 2020 and *announced management contracts with several resorts *in late 2019 and early 2020 including El Corazon de Santa Fe by Welk Resorts in Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as the Eagle Point Vacation Community in Vail , Colo. *Several years ago, the company also introduced its Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts*, which includes an additional 16 vacation resorts available to Welk Resorts' Platinum Owners, such as the Four Seasons and Disney Vacation Club in desirable locations from Florida to Hawaii....”_​
> 
> 
> 
> The articles seems to align with Welks Public Report document that I previously posted in this thread which defines the Program.
> 
> *From page 6 of 31 (see link in the quote above)*
> _“The developer of Welk Resorts Platinum Program (*the "Program*") is Welk Resort Group, Inc., a California corporation, located at 300 Rancheros Drive #450, San Marcos, California 92069. *The Program *is a multi-location time-share plan with accommodations in the following locations (the “Underlying Resorts”):....”_​



Ok I guess we’ll see who gets what as it shakes out over time.


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## Kal

The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC".  The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC  AND the HPP points program.  As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system.  Those owners would fit well into the HPP program.  However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system.  If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members. 

Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system.  If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners.  That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.

My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP.  Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?

I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners.  The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.


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## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC". The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC AND the HPP points program. As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system. Those owners would fit well into the HPP program. However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system. If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.
> 
> Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system. If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners. That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.
> 
> My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP. Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?
> 
> I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners. The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.


I'll be beyond pissed if that happens. 
I'm hoping HPP gets revamped and learns from the success and simplicity of Welk Platinum Points program.
Is it really $13k to join HPP???

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## vikingsholm

Kal said:


> The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC".  The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC  AND the HPP points program.  As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system.  Those owners would fit well into the HPP program.  However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system.  If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.
> 
> Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system.  If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners.  That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.
> 
> My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP.  Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?
> 
> I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners.  The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.


Kal, my initial thought when I first saw this news was that this would mostly benefit Welk owners and not be the greatest for Hyatt owners, though I do not own Welk or Hyatt and do not understand their systems much. So your post helps fill in some of the blanks.

I do trade into Welk properties occasionally through both II and RCI though.

Do you have any thoughts on how this buyout might affect availability of Welk properties in the exchange systems for those of us who trade into them (in my case, using Marriott units mostly)?


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## nuwermj

Welk's fee structure, in their points system, is a two-part price. There is a fixed amount that every account pays and a per point amount. Thus care is needed when making comparisons like the one below.

I own 780,000 Welk points. Since I can spread my fixed cost over a larger number of points than someone who owns only 420k, my cost per point is lower. Thus, that unit at North Star would cost me $1785.54.

There is also the consideration of point v. deeds, something true for any timeshare network. Points are always more expensive than fixed weeks. In addition to my points, I own a fixed week in San Diego. The fee was about $1,000 in 2019. The point equivilant is 240,000. That same unit is $1,507 for some who owns only 240,000 points. For me (with my points) it would cost $1,020.




jjking42 said:


> this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on  420K is $ 2,110
> IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200
> 
> 
> View attachment 31551
> View attachment 31552


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## nuwermj

Kal said:


> Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system.  If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners.  That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.



The Welk owner would use point to get the week and that would make inventory in the Welk system available to HRC owners. Access in both directions must always work on an exchange basis. Could you please elaborate as to why there would be huge hit on HRC?


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## travelhacker

@nuwermj @Shankilicious

I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?

Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).

When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.

To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.

I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.

I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.

I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).

Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.

Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.


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## Shankilicious

travelhacker said:


> @nuwermj @Shankilicious
> 
> I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?
> 
> Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).
> 
> When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.
> 
> To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.
> 
> I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.
> 
> I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.
> 
> I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).
> 
> Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.
> 
> Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.



You get a deed with points attached and it's in a trust. There is a line in the contract that states Welk can adjust the points required for units by at most 5% a year (I believe). Although they haven't increased the initially assigned point amounts in 15 years. 
They limit the amount of points that can be sold to the amount of total intervals in the trust. So a two bedroom at 240k points is one unit with 52 intervals a year. I can't do the math on that but you get the idea. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## nuwermj

Ownership in the points system is a "beneficial interest" (a share) in a trust fund. The trust fund owns deeds to resorts and point owner have rights to use those deeds according to some system of rules. 

The Welk point system and the legacy deeds are completely separated. Owners in one group have no access to inventory in the other group. Only San Diego and Palm Springs has individual deeds. For the other locations, 100% are in the trust fund. (San Diego is three HOAs, Two have deeds, the third does not.)

Recently Welk has purchased inventory at some locations that they don't manage or own the developer rights for. These deeds are also in the trust fund.




travelhacker said:


> @nuwermj @Shankilicious
> 
> I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?
> 
> Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).
> 
> When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.
> 
> To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.
> 
> I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.
> 
> I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.
> 
> I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).
> 
> Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.
> 
> Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.


----------



## Tenga

Kal said:


> The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC".  The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC  AND the HPP points program.  As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system.  Those owners would fit well into the HPP program.  However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system.  If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.
> 
> Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system.  If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners.  That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.
> 
> My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP.  Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?
> 
> I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners.  The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.





nuwermj said:


> The Welk owner would use point to get the week and that would make inventory in the Welk system available to HRC owners. Access in both directions must always work on an exchange basis. Could you please elaborate as to why there would be huge hit on HRC?


I'll surmise it in three words,  HRC in its bylaws "SEPARATE INVENTORY POOLS"  Welk point members like HPP members left standing at the door waiting to get in the 16 existing Hyatt clubs! The building's exists, but the inventory is not there!
Tenga


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## heathpack

To those who want to understand how HPP works, @alameda94501 wrote a series of very informative and detailed posts in this forum.  Search here for those details.

The bottom line is Hyatt never really rolled this out to legacy owners.  One day there was a HPP system and some legalese documents posted on the website but it was very hard to figure out what happened.  After a long time in this state (6-8 months?), more details started to appear on the website.  Still there was no comprehensive explanation of it provided to owners.  Sales pitches (I attended one) gave info but it was very skewed and incomplete and full of half truths.

@alameda actually started the purchase process and read all the documents provided with that.  Once all the info was available, HPP was clearly a "no buy" and that purchase was rescinded.  But all the details were posted her in this forum.  Its the magnum opus of what you need to know abour HPP.


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## travelhacker

nuwermj said:


> Ownership in the points system is a "beneficial interest" (a share) in a trust fund. The trust fund owns deeds to resorts and point owner have rights to use those deeds according to some system of rules.
> 
> The Welk point system and the legacy deeds are completely separated. Owners in one group have no access to inventory in the other group. Only San Diego and Palm Springs has individual deeds. For the other locations, 100% are in the trust fund. (San Diego is three HOAs, Two have deeds, the third does not.)
> 
> Recently Welk has purchased inventory at some locations that they don't manage or own the developer rights for. These deeds are also in the trust fund.


How does inventory from the "Experiences" collection get populated for Welk owners to book?

Is that just from weeks that welk owns that get put into the pool? Did Welk buy DVC points?


----------



## RunCat

travelhacker said:


> @nuwermj @Shankilicious
> 
> I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?
> 
> Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).
> 
> When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.
> 
> To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.
> 
> I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.
> 
> I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.
> 
> I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).
> 
> Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.
> 
> Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.



My understanding that all Welk points are in a trust. Thus you are not buying into any one location.  All owners have equal access to the inventory; albeit a small % of that inventory is set aside for owners to make reservations prior to the general 15 month open reservation period.  I think a similar transaction took place when Welk moved from weeks to points; we owned a week in a location and had to convert to points (and pay)  in order to take advantage of the additional locations.  Welk has only sold points for many years now.  
re: points adjustments - not sure if they could legally dilute an owner's proportional ownership; I think that would have the net effect of overselling the resort system.  They could, I suppose, adjust the value of specific resorts provided the total value remains static. 
Now if I was to hypothesize about things going forward. . . . the Welk points system will be adopted by the HPP with a conversion factor.  I also suspect, in order to "entice" legacy owners to convert to points, that the legacy owners may have very limited access to the "new" Welk Resorts.   
Honestly, based on what I am reading, it sounds like the systems are quite similar albeit Welk has been in the points game much longer.


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## Shankilicious

travelhacker said:


> How does inventory from the "Experiences" collection get populated for Welk owners to book?
> 
> Is that just from weeks that welk owns that get put into the pool? Did Welk buy DVC points?


Welk bought intervals at those resorts and we have access via call in booking. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## travelhacker

Shankilicious said:


> Welk bought intervals at those resorts and we have access via call in booking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


This is fascinating. 

So I'm not saying this is what will happen. Theoretically, Welk could buy inventory at some of those timeshares for nothing, move it into the trust and move out more desirable properties to a different trust.

Marriott can theoretically do this with their Trust points, but the trust so far only holds deeds on properties that they manage.


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## heathpack

Here's the first of Alameda's posts: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...ction-how-the-hpc-affects-hrc-members.294333/


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## nuwermj

travelhacker said:


> Did Welk buy DVC points?


No. The trust fund does not own any DVC assets. Disney is handled as an internal exchange between the two companies. I suspect going forward the DVC options well go away.

The Welk Public Offering is posted here. It includes all the inventory owned by the trust fund.
https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf


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## Kal

nuwermj said:


> The Welk owner would use point to get the week and that would make inventory in the Welk system available to HRC owners. Access in both directions must always work on an exchange basis. Could you please elaborate as to why there would be huge hit on HRC?


The would be a HUGE hit on HRC if the Welk owners used their points to book an HRC unit without depositing a Welk unit into the HRC system.  The "Welk Points" would be of no value to an HRC owner as their "currency" is in available Welk units to book.


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## Kal

If the new Welk owners think they are getting a "free lunch" from Hyatt in getting unhindered access to the full set of Hyatt resorts, don't hold your breath.  Hyatt is in the money business where every transaction benefits Hyatt.  In the end game, be prepared to pay bucks, in some cases $13,000.  Furthermore, if a Welk resort only has weeks owners, that's a stand alone entity where maintenance fees are predictable.  If a Welk resort has a combination of weeks owners and points owners, that situation is in for a shock as it doesn't fit the Hyatt system.  Shock = BUCKS.


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## RunCat

Kal said:


> If the new Welk owners think they are getting a "free lunch" from Hyatt in getting unhindered access to the full set of Hyatt resorts, don't hold your breath.  Hyatt is in the money business where every transaction benefits Hyatt.  In the end game, be prepared to pay bucks, in some cases $13,000.  Furthermore, if a Welk resort only has weeks owners, that's a stand alone entity where maintenance fees are predictable.  If a Welk resort has a combination of weeks owners and points owners, that situation is in for a shock as it doesn't fit the Hyatt system.  Shock = BUCKS.



Not sure if the situation is any different from every other time share company.   So, initially both systems may work independently. But eventually the two systems will need to find a way to work together and the points merged.  Now, due to the unsold inventory that Welk owns, that may be pushed into the HPP system to encourage HRC owners to convert.  Another possibility is that the HPP and Welk Resort points combine and normalize their point values and allow cross use per the HPP model. More likely, they keep the systems separate and all owners need to pay to take advantage of each others resorts. $$$$$$    Re Welk Weeks: less than 25% own weeks.


----------



## Kal

RunCat said:


> Not sure if the situation is any different from every other time share company.   So, initially both systems may work independently. But eventually the two systems will need to find a way to work together and the points merged.  Now, due to the unsold inventory that Welk owns, that may be pushed into the HPP system to encourage HRC owners to convert.  Another possibility is that the HPP and Welk Resort points combine and normalize their point values and allow cross use per the HPP model. More likely, they keep the systems separate and all owners need to pay to take advantage of each others resorts. $$$$$$    Re Welk Weeks: less than 25% own weeks.


That makes good sense.  The game plan might be to maintain Welk as a separate entity where the weeks owners can play in the HRC game and the points owners can buy into the HPP program.  That buy-in may have a small discount but would hover around $13,000 to play that game.  Hyatt would take the unsold Welk inventory and use it as HPP bait just like they did with the unsold HRC inventory.  Without having access to the Welk weeks would leave those owners with limited options.

A new opportunity to make more HPP sausage.


----------



## travelhacker

Kal said:


> That makes good sense.  The game plan might be to maintain Welk as a separate entity where the weeks owners can play in the HRC game and the points owners can buy into the HPP program.  That buy-in may have a small discount but would hover around $13,000 to play that game.  Hyatt would take the unsold Welk inventory and use it as HPP bait just like they did with the unsold HRC inventory.  Without having access to the Welk weeks would leave those owners with limited options.
> 
> A new opportunity to make more HPP sausage.


I think this is close, but I don't think they will let Welk weeks owners (or anyone but HPP owners) play in the other system without a purchase.

My guess is that they treat them as separate systems and you need to buy HPP to play in both (the handful of existing HPP owners would be grandfathered in). They could figure out an exchange system, but why would they do that when they can make more money off of interval trades?

My guess is that when people "upgrade" or "convert" their old welk points to HPP that they move inventory from the Welk Trust to the HPP trust. I am guessing they start with the best stuff first. I mean if you wanted to sell stuff to new owners, wouldn't you want to start with Northstar or One Village Place, rather than Branson?

Since owners in Welk don't own at a particular resort they can cherry pick the best inventory.

Obviously, it would take some time for that to have an impact on either system.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

RunCat said:


> My understanding that all Welk points are in a trust. Thus you are not buying into any one location.  All owners have equal access to the inventory; albeit a small % of that inventory is set aside for owners to make reservations prior to the general 15 month open reservation period.  I think a similar transaction took place when Welk moved from weeks to points; we owned a week in a location and had to convert to points (and pay)  in order to take advantage of the additional locations.  Welk has only sold points for many years now.
> re: points adjustments - not sure if they could legally dilute an owner's proportional ownership; I think that would have the net effect of overselling the resort system.  They could, I suppose, adjust the value of specific resorts provided the total value remains static.
> Now if I was to hypothesize about things going forward. . . . the Welk points system will be adopted by the HPP with a conversion factor.  I also suspect, in order to "entice" legacy owners to convert to points, that the legacy owners may have very limited access to the "new" Welk Resorts.
> Honestly, based on what I am reading, it sounds like the systems are quite similar albeit Welk has been in the points game much longer.


Once the deal is done if Hyatt wants to have folks give up their week for points, I will pass as non of the Welk resorts are in spots I go to. I just hope Hyatt does not force me to sell my week but I don’t see how they could. However I’ve learned to never say never


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## nuwermj

For those who might have an interest, the attached image shows Welk's inventory in their points system.


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## alexadeparis

I am curious about what will eventually happen. I thought about this a lot overnight and today. MVC hasn't even merged the damn Westin and Marriott systems yet and how many F-ing years has that been, and yet they're out here buying more up. That being said, the fact that they are saying that Welks will be rebranded as Hyatt, to my mind, means that everyone will have to be equalized in some way and that the full set of both resorts will become one unified group. SO that probably means merging one points value into the other so that there is a common currency. Probably the Hyatt point structure survives the merging of HPP with the Welk points. The Legacy Hyatt owners will be able to book just as we do now with separate buckets of HPP inventory - at 6 months out - and the Welk points owners can book HPP inventory like an HPP member could.  Which means the Welk resorts for practical purposes wouldn't be bookable until 6 months out, and therefore of limited use value to me. Whatever does happen, given their track record, the eventual resolution is years away.


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## nuwermj

alexadeparis said:


> I am curious about what will eventually happen. I thought about this a lot overnight and today. MVC hasn't even merged the damn Westin and Marriott systems yet and how many F-ing years has that been, and yet they're out here buying more up.



According to Marriott's call with investors, they were not looking for an acquisition. Welk signaled they were looking for a sale. A number of parties were interested. Marriott thought it was an opportunity too good to pass. They said the Hyatt license agreement includes growth and development requirements which this acquisition will fulfill. Also there are not many higher quality systems out there. So they felt they had to take the opportunity as it presented itself.



alexadeparis said:


> That being said, the fact that they are saying that Welks will be rebranded as Hyatt, to my mind, means that everyone will have to be equalized in some way and that the full set of both resorts will become one unified group. SO that probably means merging one points value into the other so that there is a common currency. Probably the Hyatt point structure survives the merging of HPP with the Welk points. The Legacy Hyatt owners will be able to book just as we do now with separate buckets of HPP inventory - at 6 months out - and the Welk points owners can book HPP inventory like an HPP member could.  Which means the Welk resorts for practical purposes wouldn't be bookable until 6 months out, and therefore of limited use value to me. Whatever does happen, given their track record, the eventual resolution is years away.



The investor's call spoke as if there will be one system in the future. They estimated 2023. Diamond Resorts has made many acquisition, and they have at least five models for how to integrate clubs. Much depends on the by-laws of the trust funds.


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## dioxide45

It seems that HPP runs more like the Westin/Sheraton Flex products do more so than how Marriott handles DC. Westin/Sheraton Flex owners can only book weeks inventory inside of 8 months. Weeks owners with StarOptions can only book Westin/Sheraton Flex inventory inside of 8 months. That is if Vistana makes the inventory available. However, with HPP it doesn't sound like there is any cross over between weeks (HRC) based points and HPP.

Hyatt is likely to create an exchange company that will allow HPP and Welk Platinum Points (WPP) to trade between each other. This is kind of like the Marriott DC exchange company (not the trust). There may be multiple ways to get into this exchange company. Perhaps simply owning HPP or WPP, either now or in the future. Perhaps some kind of enrollment fee, available to everyone, even HRC weeks owners. Perhaps require the purchase of additional HPP or WPP in the future. It would be very difficult to merge the two trust together. I think that is what is causing a lot of issues with Marriott trying to integrate Vistana into the Marriott program. Vistana has trusts out the wazoo (Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, two Nanea trust, multiple trusts at WSJ). Then there is also Westin Aventuras in Mexico. Merging or removing inventory from a trust is messy. I suspect what they would do is any new inventory they add in the future would go into HPP and there is an exchange company setup where all inventory from both trusts is dumped in and all HPP/WPP owners can access it. If there is some kind of enrollment and not everyone is automatically allowed in, then it will work more Marriott DC exchange company and they would move inventory into the exchange company when someone books between systems.


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## TUGBrian

another link, just in case it hasnt been posted in here (lot of posts to read)









						Marriott Vacations Worldwide Announces Agreement to Acquire Welk Resorts For Approximately $430 Million
					

/PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacations Worldwide (NYSE: VAC) ("MVW" or the "Company") announced today that it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire...




					www.prnewswire.com


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## WBP

I'm entirely unimpressed by the Welk acquisition by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. I think Hyatt Residence Club has a mixed bag of resorts, and Welk, the same. I speculate that Welk was a "Fire Sale" acquisition by MVW, with one goal being to put pins in a map, and increase resort locations/destinations.


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## Sapper

Here are my two cents. The properties that Welk owns will be rebranded as Hyatt’s. The inventory in Welk‘s point system that is in other locations (Ex, Aviara, Troon, etc) is not leaving their point system in some Marriott conspiracy.  It can’t because it makes up their trust inventory (which they have publicly disclosed; unlike Hyatt’s HPP, which is a murky pool of who knows what inventory).  They can reassign point values, and will in order to bring it inline with the Hyatt system.  That does not mean that people will get less value for their points, even if it appears as a smaller number (Ie, a two bed unit in high season may go from 240,000 points to 2200, but you are still getting a two bed unit). The small percentage of deed holders will have a point value assigned and will be able to exchange their unit week for points to be used in the system just like Hyatt deed owners. No forcing a deed owner to sell (though I can see a stronger push to “upgrade” to all points at the sales meetings for both Welk and Hyatt deed holders), if you want to use your deeded unit, it’s yours. Timeline is probably dependent on Marriotts end goal for the Hyatt system. If they want to spin it off (IPO or sell to another company) it will be faster, if they want to be parasitic leaches slower. Either way, speculating two to four years from close of the deal. Cost to owners?  Lets be clear, Marriott does not part with a red cent unless they can generate revenue for their share holders. What ever scheme they come up with, expect it to be driven by revenue maximization.  If their end goal is to spin Hyatt off, they will merge the systems quickly and make it free to owners to participate. If their goal is to hang on to the Hyatt system, expect it to be expensive.


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## Kal

I can see the new announcement from Hyatt:  "Great announcement - We have added some NEW shiny resorts to our collection.  BRANSON and a few others!!  Now you will have another highly cherished resort to visit"  And with each visit we will give you FREE, two tickets on the _Tilt_-O-_Whirl _where you can see the pixie-dust spreader.


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## Shankilicious

dioxide45 said:


> It seems that HPP runs more like the Westin/Sheraton Flex products do more so than how Marriott handles DC. Westin/Sheraton Flex owners can only book weeks inventory inside of 8 months. Weeks owners with StarOptions can only book Westin/Sheraton Flex inventory inside of 8 months. That is if Vistana makes the inventory available. However, with HPP it doesn't sound like there is any cross over between weeks (HRC) based points and HPP.
> 
> Hyatt is likely to create an exchange company that will allow HPP and Welk Platinum Points (WPP) to trade between each other. This is kind of like the Marriott DC exchange company (not the trust). There may be multiple ways to get into this exchange company. Perhaps simply owning HPP or WPP, either now or in the future. Perhaps some kind of enrollment fee, available to everyone, even HRC weeks owners. Perhaps require the purchase of additional HPP or WPP in the future. It would be very difficult to merge the two trust together. I think that is what is causing a lot of issues with Marriott trying to integrate Vistana into the Marriott program. Vistana has trusts out the wazoo (Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, two Nanea trust, multiple trusts at WSJ). Then there is also Westin Aventuras in Mexico. Merging or removing inventory from a trust is messy. I suspect what they would do is any new inventory they add in the future would go into HPP and there is an exchange company setup where all inventory from both trusts is dumped in and all HPP/WPP owners can access it. If there is some kind of enrollment and not everyone is automatically allowed in, then it will work more Marriott DC exchange company and they would move inventory into the exchange company when someone books between systems.





Kal said:


> I can see the new announcement from Hyatt: "Great announcement - We have added some NEW shiny resorts to our collection. BRANSON and a few others!! Now you will have another highly cherished resort to visit" And with each visit we will give you FREE, two tickets on the _Tilt_-O-_Whirl _where you can see the pixie-dust spreader.


How badly did Hyatt hurt you? 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## GTLINZ

Shankilicious said:


> How badly did Hyatt hurt you?



What happened to your sense of humor ?

The cynicism from both long time posters is quite refreshing. It has been forged from years of observation of corporate actions compared against corporate words spoken.


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## dsmrp

GTLINZ said:


> What happened to your sense of humor ?
> 
> The cynicism from both long time posters is quite refreshing. It has been forged from years of observation of corporate actions compared against corporate words spoken.


Not so much cynical, but realistic from past experience ;-)


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## Shankilicious

GTLINZ said:


> What happened to your sense of humor ?
> 
> The cynicism from both long time posters is quite refreshing. It has been forged from years of observation of corporate actions compared against corporate words spoken.


Fair enough.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> How badly did Hyatt hurt you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Hmmm, sounds like Branson is one of your favorite resorts.  For Hyatt, I have been an owner for decades and it's illustrative to just sit back and watch what they do.  Just watch the annual budget documents and the picture readily comes into focus.


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## heathpack

lol, I didn't even find @dioxide45's post to be cynical


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## travelhacker

heathpack said:


> lol, I didn't even find @dioxide45's post to be cynical


Same. Just super logical and well informed.


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## RunCat

WBP said:


> I'm entirely unimpressed by the Welk acquisition by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. I think Hyatt Residence Club has a mixed bag of resorts, and Welk, the same. I speculate that Welk was a "Fire Sale" acquisition by MVW, with one goal being to put pins in a map, and increase resort locations/destinations.



Have not visited many HRC resorts.  And I agree with you re: Welk being a mixed bag.  But all of the Welk resorts have their attractions .  Cabo, Northstar and Breckenridge are all high-end (IMO).  Branson fits Branson.  Escondido is a great place to visit and stay.  I have had friends go and never leave the resort due to the numerous activities that are on site.  It could use some upscaling. But I believe that the foundation is sound and just needs some TLC.  My family loves Escondido and will be visiting at least twice this year (coming from CO) 

Re: Fire sale -> not so sure about that. But between the inventory backlog, Covid, and a lost lawsuit, I think Welk Resorts was hurting and selling made sense.  But there were probably others that would have happily taken the assets and membership that Welk "controlled."


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## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> lol, I didn't even find @dioxide45's post to be cynical


Yeah, I was wondering why my post was quoted there. I was thinking perhaps it was in error, not sure.


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## nuwermj

RunCat said:


> Re: Fire sale -> not so sure about that. But between the inventory backlog, Covid, and a lost lawsuit, I think Welk Resorts was hurting and selling made sense.  But there were probably others that would have happily taken the assets and membership that Welk "controlled."



I think it could be described as a fire sale. The selling price was 5.6 times EBITDA (i.e. discretionary cash flow). This is a standard industry metric for estimating value. Marriott paid a primum for ILG at 13 times EBITDA. A timeshare company's value in normal times has been around 9x or 10x EBITDA


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## GTLINZ

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, I was wondering why my post was quoted there. I was thinking perhaps it was in error, not sure.



Fair enough. When you start trying to figure out what Hyatt is up to I am the one who assumed you might be being cynical. No harm meant.

Kal's post still has me laughing.


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## andrea.annis17

dmelcher13 said:


> Where is a good place to learn more about the Welk system?
> 
> Is it points based or deeded ownership?
> 
> The vast majority of HRC ownership is deeded weeks.
> 
> I'm curious if the Welk system will be rolled into the HPC trust in an attempt to resuscitate Hyatt's attempt at a points system?



I am Welk owner and they have converted to points. There are some legacy deeded contracts still out there but they don’t sell them anymore.


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> How badly did Hyatt hurt you?


It may have been because they wouldn't let me take a BIG bar of soap and bubble bath into the hot tub???


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## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> Hmmm, sounds like Branson is one of your favorite resorts. For Hyatt, I have been an owner for decades and it's illustrative to just sit back and watch what they do. Just watch the annual budget documents and the picture readily comes into focus.


Lol! Branson/Ozarks is about the only place within a five hour drive of STL with enough to make a 4-7 night stay worth it. 
I've been all over though and really enjoy my Welk ownership the way it is so I do get a bit defensive when someone talks trash on a resort company they know little about or haven't visited but one of their locations. 
I would never buy into a company that has fixed weeks, seven seasons to separate the levels of owners, and a single home resort. But I'm not bashing Hyatt, it's just not for me.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## ann824

_[MERGED]_

*Marriott Vacations Worldwide plans to rebrand the Welk resorts as Hyatt Residence Club properties*
After more than a half-century of family ownership, the Welk Resorts portfolio, including the original Escondido location, is being sold to Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation for $430 million.
Once the still pending sale is finalized — by early in the second quarter — Marriott says it plans to rebrand the Welk vacation resorts in California, Colorado, Missouri, New Mexico and Cabo San Lucas as Hyatt Residence Club properties. The purchase price includes roughly 1.4 million Marriott Vacations common shares.


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## Fasttr

_[Link to closed thread deleted; open threads merged.]_


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> But I'm not bashing Hyatt, it's just not for me.



Yet here you are... a new member of Hyatt Residence Club!


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> .... or haven't visited but one of their locations....


Just to assure my purity, I have never visited any of the Welk properties.  My only guess is that Branson is not one the absolute best of the litter.  Now, Cousin Eddie (aka Christmas Vacation) may have parked his RV at Branson!


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## Shankilicious

heathpack said:


> Yet here you are... a new member of Hyatt Residence Club!


Lol! Touche! But not by choice and just praying HPP gets revamped to be more like Welk and with a more reasonable buy in. Or just leave us "legacy" points owners alone.....

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> Just to assure my purity, I have never visited any of the Welk properties. My only guess is that Branson is not one the absolute best of the litter. Now, Cousin Eddie (aka Christmas Vacation) may have parked his RV at Branson!


Depends on a lot of things. The majority of the units are the exact same as the mountain villas at San Diego and the cabo resort with slightly more rustic decor. 
And Branson is great for a less expensive family vacation especially if you're in the Midwest and don't wanna fly the whole family or spend 12+ hours in the car to get to a beach.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> Lol! Touche! But not by choice and just praying HPP gets revamped to be more like Welk and with a more reasonable buy in. Or just leave us "legacy" points owners alone.....


Try not to judge Hyatt by the Portfolio Program.  If you consider an upfront fee of $13,000 to play, that also means you have a legacy week (or equivalent points) to add to the pot.  Now if you are just someone off the street with no timeshare ownership, the cost of entry is closer to $40,000.  So maybe there's some street person who thinks a timeshare opportunity is a solid investment, they may see it as a bargain.

With some careful searching, someone could play in the Hyatt HRC program for $3,000 to $6,000 (with a reasonably quality resale legacy week).


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## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> Try not to judge Hyatt by the Portfolio Program. If you consider an upfront fee of $13,000 to play, that also means you have a legacy week (or equivalent points) to add to the pot. Now if you are just someone off the street with no timeshare ownership, the cost of entry is closer to $40,000. So maybe there's some street person who thinks a timeshare opportunity is a solid investment, they may see it as a bargain.
> 
> With some careful searching, someone could play in the Hyatt HRC program for $3,000 to $6,000 (with a reasonably quality resale legacy week).


Almost everything I've read so far is pretty negative about the HPP. Low inventory, what is there is mostly off season.... I love the quality of Hyatt and would love to be able to transfer into some of the Florida or colorado properties, but it wouldn't be worth $13k to do it when I could exchange through II to those locations

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> Almost everything I've read so far is pretty negative about the HPP


The only thing we have been told for sure is: Welk will be branded 'Hyatt'.

Given most 'Welk' folks here like their point system, and virtually 100% of the Hyatt people think the Hyatt point system is a colossal failure, why are we not speculating that the HPP will instead be folded into the Welk system, but called 'Hyatt"?


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> Almost everything I've read so far is pretty negative about the HPP. Low inventory, what is there is mostly off season.... I love the quality of Hyatt and would love to be able to transfer into some of the Florida or colorado properties, but it wouldn't be worth $13k to do it when I could exchange through II to those locations
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


If Welk weeks owners get rolled into Hyatt HRC (and not HPP) it will be great for those folks.  However, for the points owners without an underlying deeded unit, it will not be good, especially if HPP charges some kind of outrageous ransom to join.


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## bizaro86

nuwermj said:


> I think it could be described as a fire sale. The selling price was 5.6 times EBITDA (i.e. discretionary cash flow). This is a standard industry metric for estimating value. Marriott paid a primum for ILG at 13 times EBITDA. A timeshare company's value in normal times has been around 9x or 10x EBITDA



5.6x ebitda is what they said in the release, but that has about as much truth as the average sales presentation. If you squint, and assume everything turns out rosy the EV/EBITDA is 5.6x.

They deducted the inventory from EV, which is absolutely non standard analysis. They didn't use the 2020 number because of covid, they used 2019. And then they assumed a bunch of synergies and benefits that may or may not happen.

So in summary, if you assume they can easily convert the inventory to cash and that they are able to ramp up quickly to double Welk's 2019 ebitda then they got a bargain at 5.6x ebitda.

On the other hand, using a more standard financial analysis the purchase price of $461 MM is 17.7x Welk's 2019 (pre-covid!) EBITDA of $26 MM.

It very much seems to me they paid a full price here. There will probably be lots of synergies (aka lots of new owners to try and upgrade) but this isn't a bargain purchase initially.


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## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> It seems that HPP runs more like the Westin/Sheraton Flex products do more so than how Marriott handles DC. Westin/Sheraton Flex owners can only book weeks inventory inside of 8 months. Weeks owners with StarOptions can only book Westin/Sheraton Flex inventory inside of 8 months. That is if Vistana makes the inventory available. However, with HPP it doesn't sound like there is any cross over between weeks (HRC) based points and HPP.
> 
> Hyatt is likely to create an exchange company that will allow HPP and Welk Platinum Points (WPP) to trade between each other. This is kind of like the Marriott DC exchange company (not the trust). There may be multiple ways to get into this exchange company. Perhaps simply owning HPP or WPP, either now or in the future. Perhaps some kind of enrollment fee, available to everyone, even HRC weeks owners. Perhaps require the purchase of additional HPP or WPP in the future. It would be very difficult to merge the two trust together. I think that is what is causing a lot of issues with Marriott trying to integrate Vistana into the Marriott program. Vistana has trusts out the wazoo (Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, two Nanea trust, multiple trusts at WSJ). Then there is also Westin Aventuras in Mexico. Merging or removing inventory from a trust is messy. I suspect what they would do is any new inventory they add in the future would go into HPP and there is an exchange company setup where all inventory from both trusts is dumped in and all HPP/WPP owners can access it. If there is some kind of enrollment and not everyone is automatically allowed in, then it will work more Marriott DC exchange company and they would move inventory into the exchange company when someone books between systems.


Actually there is a very simple way that Hyatt and Welk (and more globally Marriott and Vistana) could merge these trusts: treat ALL owners the SAME. Marriott has realized this in the past when they started their points program and offered very low enrollment into their system. Where all these companies make their mistake is in not realizing that when a unit changes hands, they have already made their money when they sold it the first time. They aren’t being shorted anything, especially in light of the fact that most units are worth very little, yet carry a never ending MF obligation. Could you imagine Chevy wanting to send a disabling engine signal to every used car they saw on the street because the local dealer made a few hundred dollars on the resale, and that buyer didn’t buy new? Why are these timeshare companies so concerned with whether the unit is resale or not? If they really thought their product was that great they would offer to rebuy at a set price so they can sell it again. They SHOULD be concerned with having willing owners that can pay their ever higher MF. If they treated all purchasers alike, they would have no problem merging these inventories and it wouldn’t take 5 years. Didn’t Marriott purchase Vistana in 2017? This is 2021. Treat a point as a point regardless of who owns it. Secondly, anything weeks based should be given the option to enroll at a modest cost into a points overlay that can be elected yearly, like the Marriott weeks/dc interplay. The weeks product, except for perhaps the priority reservation, for a specific fixed/event week, is dead on arrival nowadays. People want flexibility now more than ever. Maybe they can’t go to Hawaii for the third week of April anymore every year like they used to, the product needs to evolve with the times. People don’t want to be trapped into something that is hard to use. People want to go for a long weekend or two over a 7 day vacation all the time. It would generate a lot more goodwill to the public. If anyone asks me about my timeshares I tell them I love them but there is a huge learning curve and you have to plan at least a year in advance. That usually turns them off. An easy to use product would do much better on resale and perhaps people could even recoup some of their outlay. I love my Hyatt units, but I also hate them because of the complicated rules.


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> Lol! Touche! But not by choice and just praying HPP gets revamped to be more like Welk and with a more reasonable buy in. Or just leave us "legacy" points owners alone.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



I hope so too but I’m not holding my breath.  So far, I’ve not known HRC to make very many owner-friendly moves.

Funny your comment on not wanting a deed.  HRC has been (maybe no more!) the best of both worlds- deed plus points.  I find myself thinking with this change- well worst case scenario, I can just use my deeded weeks.  It will make me sad if HRC makes my points less usable by diluting the system with lots of new users and not giving me access to the new inventory.  But worst case scenario I go to Tahoe every June and mountain bike for a week, and I go to Carmel every other year in May for road biking and wine tasting.

I get it that some folks don’t like to travel to the same places repeatedly.  Hyatt points have always traded very well in II.  So we had three great options- deeded week usage, internal Hyatt trading, and II use.  I’m not trying to talk anyone into liking a deeded week but I personally see only upside.

We‘ve settled into a fairly happy cycle of travel: Carmel March-ish, Tahoe June-ish, Park City Septemberish, and Sedona Novemberish.  With some modifications to accommodate other locales.  

Anyway, I hope the same as you: this merger makes things better.  But if not, I can live with visiting the units on my deeds.


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## Shankilicious

heathpack said:


> I hope so too but I’m not holding my breath. So far, I’ve not known HRC to make very many owner-friendly moves.
> 
> Funny your comment on not wanting a deed. HRC has been (maybe no more!) the best of both worlds- deed plus points. I find myself thinking with this change- well worst case scenario, I can just use my deeded weeks. It will make me sad if HRC makes my points less usable by diluting the system with lots of new users and not giving me access to the new inventory. But worst case scenario I go to Tahoe every June and mountain bike for a week, and I go to Carmel every other year in May for road biking and wine tasting.
> 
> I get it that some folks don’t like to travel to the same places repeatedly. Hyatt points have always traded very well in II. So we had three great options- deeded week usage, internal Hyatt trading, and II use. I’m not trying to talk anyone into liking a deeded week but I personally see only upside.
> 
> We‘ve settled into a fairly happy cycle of travel: Carmel March-ish, Tahoe June-ish, Park City Septemberish, and Sedona Novemberish. With some modifications to accommodate other locales.
> 
> Anyway, I hope the same as you: this merger makes things better. But if not, I can live with visiting the units on my deeds.


Right on. Like I said, fixed weeks, it's just not for me. I have never had a problem booking anywhere inside Welk with booking 3-9 months in advance. 
I love II and how well Welk trades in it but that's extra fees one has to pay. 


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> Right on. Like I said, fixed weeks, it's just not for me. I have never had a problem booking anywhere inside Welk with booking 3-9 months in advance....


Try not to think of HRC as "fixed weeks".  Yes, you do have exclusive rights to a single unit/week every year, but that unit represents a point value.  Those points are perhaps the best feature where you can stay at all the other resorts for a period of 3-7 days.  FYI, for one of my HRC units, I have never ever stayed in the unit.  I always use those points elsewhere.


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## travelhacker

Shankilicious said:


> Right on. Like I said, fixed weeks, it's just not for me. I have never had a problem booking anywhere inside Welk with booking 3-9 months in advance.
> I love II and how well Welk trades in it but that's extra fees one has to pay.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


If they place HRC and Welk Owners on equal footing (without requiring new money) and adjusting point values across the system, Welk Owners will 100% be the victors in this merger. HRC has some of the best timeshares out there.


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## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> Try not to think of HRC as "fixed weeks". Yes, you do have exclusive rights to a single unit/week every year, but that unit represents a point value. Those points are perhaps the best feature where you can stay at all the other resorts for a period of 3-7 days. FYI, for one of my HRC units, I have never ever stayed in the unit. I always use those points elsewhere.


How does internal trading work for HRC now? Do you have to be enrolled in the points program? Is there a fee?

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## Shankilicious

travelhacker said:


> If they place HRC and Welk Owners on equal footing (without requiring new money) and adjusting point values across the system, Welk Owners will 100% be the victors in this merger. HRC has some of the best timeshares out there.


Welk Cabo, Northstar, and Branson (yes even Branson) are all blue medal in II and Cabo and Tahoe are in the RCI registry collection.

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## travelhacker

Shankilicious said:


> Welk Cabo, Northstar, and Branson (yes even Branson) are all blue medal in II and Cabo and Tahoe are in the RCI registry collection.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


If you did a survey on Tug, I am guessing 80%+ would rate Hyatt as higher quality than Welk.

I'm not saying that Welk doesn't have good resorts, but if you were to average out the portfolio of the Welk trust vs the unit weeks in Hyatt, there is no comparison.


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> How does internal trading work for HRC now? Do you have to be enrolled in the points program? Is there a fee?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



HRC legacy weeks were always traded using points.  If you didn’t use your deeded week, you got X number of points based on season and unit size and “premierness” of your resort.  With those points you could trade within HRC internally, or for nonHyatt units you’d trade in II.  Both of those options still exist.  You didn’t pay anything extra to be in this system.  It *was* the system.

HPP ownership gives you points without an underlying deed.  You can use those points in HRC or in II, the same way as the legacy weeks owners.  The differences are: you own something with zero resale value, you’re at the mercy of HRC if they change points values, you can book any number of days and any check in day (legacy owners can book 2, 3, 4 or 7 day reservations with only certain check in days possible, the specific days vary by resort and for some of them like Pinon Pointe pretty much every check in day is possible), and you are given access to HRC units somewhat on par with HRC owners (but HRC owners are given lesser access to HPP units- I’m talking about waitlist timing here).

There are numerous fees with both HRC and HPP, but these fees vary a little bit from each other.

Without buying in to HPP, HRC legacy weeks owners can access HPP on an “as available” basis.  To fully participate in HPP, however, the legacy week owner must buy a small bucket of HPP points at a cost of around $10-13,000.  This gives you a tiny number of points- I think maybe 600.  Versus the 2000 points I get from my Highlands Inn resale unit that I purchased for around $2000.


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## Sugarcubesea

heathpack said:


> tasting.


I’m glad I own a deeded week and I’m hopeful that I can still use my Hyatt week to do internal exchanges into a few places I really want to visit post COVID.


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> How does internal trading work for HRC now? Do you have to be enrolled in the points program? Is there a fee?


First, let's make sure we use the same terminology. 

* HPP  is a pure points program where you pay an outrageous entry fee and own no real HPP property.  That money is gone forever as there is no resale value.  Whenever you refer to this program, just call it HPP.  Maintenance fees are "averaged" over all resorts in that system.

* HRC is deeded ownership AND a points program where the owned week has a point value.  The points can be used as desired.  The ownership can be sold on the open market and the owner can rent the unit to others.  Please refer to this program as HRC.  Maintenance fees are based on the specific resort and unit-week owned.

The "internal trading" is a key part of the entire HRC program.  No enrollment or special fee required.  You just spend your points like money from a wallet.  Make a reservation for the desired target resort, calendar period, size of unit and length of stay.  There may be a booking fee (~$40).  Generally, units start to become available 12 months prior to occupancy.


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## Shankilicious

travelhacker said:


> If you did a survey on Tug, I am guessing 80%+ would rate Hyatt as higher quality than Welk.
> 
> I'm not saying that Welk doesn't have good resorts, but if you were to average out the portfolio of the Welk trust vs the unit weeks in Hyatt, there is no comparison.


See, Im inclined to disagree to an extent in that with all the fixed weeks, you have to hope that somebody gives up their vacation or prime week where you want to go and make sure you own as nice of a unit that's as big and in the same season. 
All those variants must align in order to swap a summer florida two bedroom for a Breck ski season two bedroom. Or am I wrong on that?
I 100% agree that 9/10 people will know Hyatt before Welk and assimilate Hyatt with high quality.
Welks system again, seems incredibly more flexible with lots of availability. 
I've got no problem paying a couple grand to play in Hyatt as long as it's reasonable. $13ish thousand seems quite steep for a system that is not the main system for internal trades.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> All those variants must align in order to swap a summer florida two bedroom for a Breck ski season two bedroom. Or am I wrong on that?


Rather than say you're wrong. I will say that is an 'oversimplification'

If you own a summer FL week, there are a number of points attached to that week.  If you choose to use the points, you can use them anywhere.

With Welk, you buy a certain # of points that you hope will be enough to get the vacation (Room size/location/season) you want.  Hyatt is the same, but you first choose whether or not you want to utilize the 'owned week'.  Once you decide to use the points, same as Welk.


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> I've got no problem paying a couple grand to play in Hyatt as long as it's reasonable. $13ish thousand seems quite steep for a system that is not the main system for internal trades.



Yes I think most HRC owners would feel the same way.  Charge me $1500-$2000 to enroll my existing HRC in HPP and I’d do it.  Force me to buy $13k of something worthless- Nope.

The big advantage to enrolling most existing HRC owners with a nominal fee is that you wind up with one big inventory of available nights instead of two split inventories.  Then everyone wins and you have a system that sells itself.  Imagine not needing to rely on deceptive sales practices.

So my biggest hope here is that with the Welk purchase is that Hyatt seizes an opportunity to offer a nominal enrollment fee.  The ideal would be to offer existing Welk and HRC owners a chance to do one of three things: 1.  Enroll in HPP for say $1500, 2. Buy 600 or more HPP points (which enrolls you in HPP), or 3. Hold on to what you’ve got- in which case HRC owners can access HRC inventory, Welk owners can access Welk inventory and HPP owners can access it all.


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## Pathways

There are HRC owners who only buy underlying weeks that are what/where they want to travel.  And there are some owners that simply utilize the points, and never use the week.  Best of both worlds, IMO


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## Shankilicious

Pathways said:


> Rather than say you're wrong. I will say that is an 'oversimplification'
> 
> If you own a summer FL week, there are a number of points attached to that week. If you choose to use the points, you can use them anywhere.
> 
> With Welk, you buy a certain # of points that you hope will be enough to get the vacation (Room size/location/season) you want. Hyatt is the same, but you first choose whether or not you want to utilize the 'owned week'. Once you decide to use the points, same as Welk.


Pretty accurate on the Welk side. 
But with HRC, even if two units in different locations are assigned the same amount of points, dont you still have to hope that the week you want was traded or given up by another owner if all the prime intervals have been bought?
Another question, how far out do you need to look/plan for a prime week with HRC?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> I think that speculation has been killed off by several calls and interviews made by Marriott Vacations Worldwide executives. They have pretty much said that any integration between Marriott and Vistana will exclude Hyatt and Hyatt will always stand alone. Likely one reason they are looking to expand it through this acquisition.



This is such a bummer. I am disappointed that MVC is integrating Welk into Hyatt instead of their DPs program. This makes no sense to me. Hyatt brand is a competitor so why would they do this? If anything, I thought they would rebrand Hyatt to Marriott or Westin. Maybe they still plan to re-brand at some point. For maybe they are planning to acquire Hyatt hotels too? Another possibility is they will build up Hyatt timeshare program and sell it? The last seems less likely if they are investing in the brand. I just hope they integrate both Hyatt and Vistana into Marriott Vacation Club.


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## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> wap a summer florida two bedroom for a Breck ski season two bedroom



So it is not a 'SWAP'.  It is possible your summer FL week is worth more points that the Breck ski week.  In that case, you only 'spend ' the points required, and have points left over for other stays/uses.

A Breck ski week is not generally hard to get if you plan ahead and reserve it early.  However, the resort there is not huge, and the available units there may reserve quickly.


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## TravelTime

travelhacker said:


> If you did a survey on Tug, I am guessing 80%+ would rate Hyatt as higher quality than Welk.
> 
> I'm not saying that Welk doesn't have good resorts, but if you were to average out the portfolio of the Welk trust vs the unit weeks in Hyatt, there is no comparison.



The Northstar properties beat Hyatt in Tahoe handsdown. Hyatt is not in a ski resort. This is why Hyatt Tahoe is not popular during winter season, only in summer. Welk is directly in the Northstar ski resort’s village. Their units are premium and upscale.


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## travelhacker

@Shankilicious

The way it works is this for the HRC "Legacy" system:

You own a fixed week that has an allotted number of points. 12 months before check in you will see the points show up in your account. You have the exclusive right to book that week up until 6 months before your check in date. If you don't confirm your reservation, your exclusive right to that week is essentially rescinded and your week is released to other owners.

If you book something with your points prior to 6 months, your week is automatically released into the Hyatt system.

This makes availability quite good. Booking fees / cancellation fees are annoying, but it does have the side effect of preventing high points owners just booking up all the good stuff and figuring out later what they want to do.

You asked about Florida availability. Right now you could book basically any week that is 6 months or less out in Coconut Point or any of the Key West Properties (besides sunset harbor -- it is right in downtown...but there is still availability there) during the summer.

Fixed week owners will often tire of visiting the same place and since they have A LOT of high quality options, they will often trade into other weeks freeing up their inventory.

Some of the hardest weeks are week 52 and week 7 during ski season. As long as you do advanced planning and put in wait list requests, you can get a lot of high quality stays in high demand areas.


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> Pretty accurate on the Welk side.
> But with HRC, even if two units in different locations are assigned the same amount of points, dont you still have to hope that the week you want was traded or given up by another owner if all the prime intervals have been bought?
> Another question, how far out do you need to look/plan for a prime week with HRC?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Well the owners of prime weeks are incentivized to trade them by being assigned high points values.  For example, I bought a 1 BR platinum unit at Hyatt Highlands Inn which is assigned 2000 pt.  This is consider a premier unit and is assigned to points value of a 2BR diamond week in most of the rest of the system.  (It’s not particularly “premier” honestly, but it was to HRCs advantage to make it so.)

I bought my unit after HPP because I want to stay at Highlands Inn regularly and wanted to be sure I could.  But I get a lot of points for the unit, so I didn’t actually use it the first year I owned it.  I traded it for Hyatt Ka’anapali.

But the basic concept is correct.  Some HRC folks pay a premium for a ski week in Aspen, so those units aren’t a dime a dozen in HRC trading.  Summer weeks at Hyatt High Sierra are hard to get, because so many of those owners bought to use.  However a 1BR II trade into Tahoe in the summer only costs me 870 points plus an exchange fee.  So there’s good options.

With HRC, most availability happens 12 months out and then again at 6 months out.


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## TravelTime

I used to own Hyatt in Key West. I did not understand their points system. It was confusing compared to MVC and Vistana. So I decided to sell the week back to MVC for close to what I paid resale. MVC will need to change the points system since I assume both systems do it differently.


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## travelhacker

TravelTime said:


> The Northstar properties beat Hyatt in Tahoe handsdown. Hyatt is not in a ski resort. This is why Hyatt Tahoe is not popular during winter season, only in summer. Welk is directly in the Northstar ski resort’s village. Their units are premium and upscale.


I agree 100%. The Welk Northstar started out as a HRC location (and there are still units available in HRC there -- just a handful though). This is truthfully the only location I would be interested in trading into from Welk (but since I live in CO, I've never booked it via Hyatt even when I've seen great ski weeks available).

Cabo does look great as well. I lived in Mexico for a couple of years during the height of the cartel wars and Mexico is very low on my list of places I want to vacation in (but I admit a bias because of the violence I experienced on a seemingly weekly basis).


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## Shankilicious

Thanks for all the good info TUGers.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Shankilicious

I'm surprised none of the commenting Hyatt owners are interested in Cabo. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## nuwermj

heathpack said:


> HRC legacy weeks were always traded using points.  If you didn’t use your deeded week, you got X number of points based on season and unit size and “premierness” of your resort.  With those points you could trade within HRC internally, or for nonHyatt units you’d trade in II.  Both of those options still exist.  You didn’t pay anything extra to be in this system.  It *was* the system.



How much of these are rights held by the ownership of the deed and how much are benefits provided by the developer? What I'm getting at is that developers can always change the benefits they offer but they cannot change one's deeded rights. How much of the HRC system is "guaranteed" in the deed? And are the guarantees transferable with the sale of the deed?


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## fleecer

Shankilicious said:


> I'm surprised none of the commenting Hyatt owners are interested in Cabo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



A lot of the comments here say more about different travel habits/wants and where one lives than the resorts. Welk is West Coast centric. As a SoCal native, I'd much rather go to Cabo than the haul it takes to get to The Keys or even San Antonio.

Mexico is pretty easy to trade into, but like most places not necessarily the prime months of Dec-March. And the Sirena del Mar property can't be beat for whale watching then; the views (esp from the pool) are among the best in Cabo.


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## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> But with HRC, even if two units in different locations are assigned the same amount of points, don't you still have to hope that the week you want was traded or given up by another owner if all the prime intervals have been bought?


Yes, but again an oversimplification.

With many timeshare groups, if you want a certain week every year you must be on the phone/computer at an exact time/day months in advance and then 'hope all goes well.  And forget multiple rooms.

With HRC, you can buy that week, + for HRC.    - for HRC is that it is a fixed week, and if you want the week before/after, you are in the same group with everyone else trying to reserve it.

With Welk, I believe it is the same as most timeshare groups - Be on the phone/computer far in advance to get the week you want if it is a high demand location.  The main difference here is how many Welk locations have a huge specific season/demand.  Therefore, it may be quite easy for you to get whatever unit you want, wherever you want.  I don't think Branson or San Diego have a season where people are clamoring for specific dates/rooms.

Same with Hyatt in Sedona and a few other places, reservations are pretty easy. Key West in J,F,M is even easy - (just not Sunset Harbor)


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## Pathways

TravelTime said:


> This is such a bummer. I am disappointed that MVC is integrating Welk into Hyatt instead of their DPs program



As a multi week HRC owner I am very pleased with the buy.  I doubt I will ever use Welk, I have no plans to join the point system. But the HRC as a stand alone has long term viability issues.



TravelTime said:


> For maybe they are planning to acquire Hyatt hotels too?



MVC club does not currently own any hotels, so I would be quite surprised if they are entertaining the purchase of Hyatt or any other hotel group.  Hotels and timeshare units don't mesh well from a corporate structure standpoint, which is why they have all gone their separate ways.  Even Wyndham has now split.


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## Shankilicious

Pathways said:


> Yes, but again an oversimplification.
> 
> With many timeshare groups, if you want a certain week every year you must be on the phone/computer at an exact time/day months in advance and then 'hope all goes well. And forget multiple rooms.
> 
> With HRC, you can buy that week, + for HRC. - for HRC is that it is a fixed week, and if you want the week before/after, you are in the same group with everyone else trying to reserve it.
> 
> With Welk, I believe it is the same as most timeshare groups - Be on the phone/computer far in advance to get the week you want if it is a high demand location. The main difference here is how many Welk locations have a huge specific season/demand. Therefore, it may be quite easy for you to get whatever unit you want, wherever you want. I don't think Branson or San Diego have a season where people are clamoring for specific dates/rooms.
> 
> Same with Hyatt in Sedona and a few other places, reservations are pretty easy. Key West in J,F,M is even easy - (just not Sunset Harbor)


Not accurate on Welk. Like I've said before, I can book whatever week I want around 9 months out unless I'm going for Valentine's week or Christmas. 
I just checked last night, Valentine's of 22 in northstar and Breck are still available with multiple room sizes and it's been available to all annual owners since November of 20.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> I'm surprised none of the commenting Hyatt owners are interested in Cabo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



I am.


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## nuwermj

Shankilicious said:


> Not accurate on Welk. Like I've said before, I can book whatever week I want around 9 months out unless I'm going for Valentine's week or Christmas.
> I just checked last night, Valentine's of 22 in northstar and Breck are still available with multiple room sizes and it's been available to all annual owners since November of 20.



Keep in mind that Welk has three years of unsold inventory at these locations. As it is sold off, availability will suffer.

Also, Marriott's conference call emphasized that they plan to put Welk units into Hyatt's rental markets. They claimed Welk has a very inefficient rental program. This too is going to squeeze availability.


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## heathpack

nuwermj said:


> How much of these are rights held by the ownership of the deed and how much are benefits provided by the developer? What I'm getting at is that developers can always change the benefits they offer but they cannot change one's deeded rights. How much of the HRC system is "guaranteed" in the deed? And are the guarantees transferable with the sale of the deed?



The right is to use your week, your unit at your resort, for a full or split week, every year or every other year as specified. I believe the points are integral to the deed but that’s a little meaningless because Hyatt has the right to modify the points system in any manner they choose.

Yes points are transferable with the sale of the deed.


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## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> ...But with HRC, even if two units in different locations are assigned the same amount of points, don't you still have to hope that the week you want was traded or given up by another owner if all the prime intervals have been bought?...


Even if all the prime weeks have been purchased, it doesn't mean the owners are occupying the units.  Those owners might stay in other weeks at the owned resort or other resorts, or use their points in Interval.  

The actual owner occupancy rate across the system is somewhat low.  The highest owner occupancy is Sunset Harbor in Key West.  Even then, the occupancy during the ultra prime weeks (Jan thru Mar) is maybe about 75%.  That means there will always be units available to book.  You just have to plan ahead and get on a wait list early.  If Sunset Harbor is the highest in the system, all the other resorts are more available.  Other difficult bookings would be high season ski-weeks at the mountain resorts and summer weeks at Tahoe.

The more undesired unit-weeks which couldn't be sold have already been transferred to the HPP.


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## TravelTime

Pathways said:


> As a multi week HRC owner I am very pleased with the buy.  I doubt I will ever use Welk, I have no plans to join the point system. But the HRC as a stand alone has long term viability issues.
> 
> 
> 
> MVC club does not currently own any hotels, so I would be quite surprised if they are entertaining the purchase of Hyatt or any other hotel group.  Hotels and timeshare units don't mesh well from a corporate structure standpoint, which is why they have all gone their separate ways.  Even Wyndham has now split.



No I meant Marriott might acquire Hyatt. It is confusing as to why MVC would rebrand to a brand that competes with Marriott Corp.


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## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> This is such a bummer. I am disappointed that MVC is integrating Welk into Hyatt instead of their DPs program. This makes no sense to me. Hyatt brand is a competitor so why would they do this? If anything, I thought they would rebrand Hyatt to Marriott or Westin. Maybe they still plan to re-brand at some point. For maybe they are planning to acquire Hyatt hotels too? Another possibility is they will build up Hyatt timeshare program and sell it? The last seems less likely if they are investing in the brand. I just hope they integrate both Hyatt and Vistana into Marriott Vacation Club.


According to information previously provided, their agreement with Hyatt requires some level of growth and new properties. They can't just let it die or merge it with their Marriott brand without violating that agreement. I don't know how long that agreement is for, but it was written up when Hyatt Hotels spunoff their timeshare division and sold it to ILG.


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## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> No I meant Marriott might acquire Hyatt. It is confusing as to why MVC would rebrand to a brand that competes with Marriott Corp.


Marriott International (the hotel company) isn't the same as Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) the timeshare company. They are both separately traded public corporations with their own shareholders. VAC owns rights to Marriott Vacation CLub, Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation CLub and Hyatt Residence Club brands. VAC needs to continue to invest in the Hyatt Residence Club. If Marriott Vacations Worldwide doesn't later spinoff Hyatt Residence Club, I could see them changing their name to no longer include "Marriott". Kind of like how HMS Host did  years ago. The M in HMS once stood for "Marriott".


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## seatrout

heathpack said:


> HRC legacy weeks were always traded using points.  If you didn’t use your deeded week, you got X number of points based on season and unit size and “premierness” of your resort.  With those points you could trade within HRC internally, or for nonHyatt units you’d trade in II.  Both of those options still exist.  You didn’t pay anything extra to be in this system.  It *was* the system.
> 
> HPP ownership gives you points without an underlying deed.  You can use those points in HRC or in II, the same way as the legacy weeks owners.  The differences are: you own something with zero resale value, you’re at the mercy of HRC if they change points values, you can book any number of days and any check in day (legacy owners can book 2, 3, 4 or 7 day reservations with only certain check in days possible, the specific days vary by resort and for some of them like Pinon Pointe pretty much every check in day is possible), and you are given access to HRC units somewhat on par with HRC owners (but HRC owners are given lesser access to HPP units- I’m talking about waitlist timing here).
> 
> There are numerous fees with both HRC and HPP, but these fees vary a little bit from each other.
> 
> Without buying in to HPP, HRC legacy weeks owners can access HPP on an “as available” basis.  To fully participate in HPP, however, the legacy week owner must buy a small bucket of HPP points at a cost of around $10-13,000.  This gives you a tiny number of points- I think maybe 600.  Versus the 2000 points I get from my Highlands Inn resale unit that I purchased for around $2000.


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## seatrout

I had two 2200 points week with HRC for decade and finally just gave in and convert to HPP by buying their "ancient loyal owner specials" To join the game I had to  add 500 HPP points at a special discount.  It is still around $9K to join and play. It is still much more than what I had to do  on the Marriott side. On the Marriott side, I have joined the DC game and added points to get to the Chairman level on promise that some how when Westin/Marriott  get combine, there will be some perks.

My observations since converting:

1) HRC points can not book HPP inventory beyond 6 months while HPP points can access those inventory.  Since HPP owner "convert" their HRC weeks to HPP point January-March, there is much more HPP inventory  >6 months than HRC. 
2)   HPP points can also cross over and book the HRC inventory  at >6 months. 
3.  Hyatt system put a large premium in Friday night.  With HPP,  there are flexibility in booking any number of nights.  As such I can get 6 night in Coconut plantation during Xmas for 1320 points vs 7 night for 2200 points.
3. Many of the fees does go away if I use HPP to book HPP inventory as well and the silly booking/cancelling fees goes away for several reservation.
4.  You can bank points for two year and still book in the Hyatt system.  Prior, if I can not use it then I would have to deposit to II
5.  The newly "Hyattized" HRC converted to HPP point can be convert to Hyatt hotel points

The sale people also promise that once converted, my II account get modify so that it has the same internal trading privilege as my Marriott account-  although there is still trading fees.  (I have-not confirm this yet)

So as of now, still no buyer regrets yet.  I think in someway the merger of Welk/Hyatt will be similar format.

1.  Initial increase internal trading  within II between Hyatt, Welk, Marriott, Westin (in the past Marriott deposits stay in Marriott II trading pool for 30 days and can be seen by my Marriott II account and NOT Hyatt II account)
2.  Some set of cross booking  between HPP, HRC and Welk inventory <6month window using common points conversion.
3.  >6 months, booking within your pool (HRC-HRC), Welk-Welk,   OR  pay extra to join HPP   so you can book  across between all three
4.  Deed weeks stay Deed week until they convert to their  respective points pool


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## Tenga

seatrout said:


> I had two 2200 points week with HRC for decade and finally just gave in and convert to HPP by buying their "ancient loyal owner specials" To join the game I had to  add 500 HPP points at a special discount.  It is still around $9K to join and play. It is still much more than what I had to do  on the Marriott side. On the Marriott side, I have joined the DC game and added points to get to the Chairman level on promise that some how when Westin/Marriott  get combine, there will be some perks.
> 
> My observations since converting:
> 
> 1) HRC points can not book HPP inventory beyond 6 months while HPP points can access those inventory.  Since HPP owner "convert" their HRC weeks to HPP point January-March, there is much more HPP inventory  >6 months than HRC.
> 2)   HPP points can also book the HRC inventory as well. I was initially scarred of this but confirm with several test booking (my HPP points were originally HRC prior to conversion anyway)
> 3.  Hyatt system put a large premium in Friday night.  with HPP, there flexibility in booking any number of night.  As such I can get 6 night in Coconut plantation during Xmas for 1320 points vs 7 night for 2200 points.
> 3. Many of the fees does go away if I use HPP to book HPP inventory as well and the silly booking/cancelling fees goes away for several reservation.
> 4.  You can bank points for two year and still book in the Hyatt system.  Prior, if I can not use it then I would have to deposit to II
> 
> The sale people also promise that once converted, my II account get modify so that it has the same internal trading privilege as my Marriott account-  although there is still trading fees.  (I have-not confirm this yet)
> 
> So of now, still no buyer regret yet


Seatrout your statement in # 2) above not accurate!  Its been well documented that HPP points and HRC points can not by law be co-mingled. HRC/MVC would be in court faster then you could say  "book that reservation".  No way the two can combine and share bookings, each are separate inventory's and are not accessible to each other. Which thank the Lawyers when the two programs were formed had the foresight too keep em separate!

Anyone care to dispute this???  
Regards,
Tenga


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## seatrout

Tenga said:


> Seatrout your statement in # 2) above not accurate!  Its been well documented that HPP points and HRC points can not by law be co-mingled. HRC/MVC would be in court faster then you could say  "book that reservation".  No way the two can combine and share bookings, each are separate inventory's and are not accessible to each other. Which thank the Lawyers when the two programs were formed had the foresight too keep em separate!
> 
> Anyone care to dispute this???
> Regards,
> Tenga
> [/QU


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## seatrout

For sure at <6 month there is cross over
I am not able to test >6momth as most of my HPP points are 2022 use year and  test of 2021  points are HRC

During my limited search

at >6 month. There are more HPP  than HRC inventory at the commonly hard to locate place such as Aspen, Highland Inn Sunset Harbor


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## seatrout

My statement #2 is absolutely correct based on the exchange agreement in Hyatt website educational materials:

*Hyatt Portfolio website*:
How do I make a Hyatt Residence Club Exchange reservation?
Members of the Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program can use their Portfolio Program points to make Club-to-Club Exchange reservations for two-, three-, four-, and seven-night stays at any Hyatt Residence Club Resort from 12 months to one day before the desired arrival date.

*At HRC instruction*
How do I make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation?
If you are a Hyatt Residence Club member, but not a member of the Portfolio Program, you may still make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation for a stay of one to 30 nights up to six months before your requested arrival date (or as late as one day before) at Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program resorts.


----------



## dmelcher13

For anyone interested or that has insomnia, here is a copy of the HPC Owner Information Book.









						HPC OWNER INFORMATION BOOK (AUG 2019 Version).pdf
					

Shared with Dropbox




					www.dropbox.com


----------



## alexadeparis

travelhacker said:


> If you did a survey on Tug, I am guessing 80%+ would rate Hyatt as higher quality than Welk.
> 
> I'm not saying that Welk doesn't have good resorts, but if you were to average out the portfolio of the Welk trust vs the unit weeks in Hyatt, there is no comparison.


And on that note if they Hyattize those units the MF will skyrocket for the Welkers.


----------



## alexadeparis

Shankilicious said:


> I'm surprised none of the commenting Hyatt owners are interested in Cabo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Personally, I can get Cabo from my Westin or HGVC so no thrill for me now Through this merger.


----------



## alexadeparis

TravelTime said:


> No I meant Marriott might acquire Hyatt. It is confusing as to why MVC would rebrand to a brand that competes with Marriott Corp.


I believe after welk and Hyatt are integrated it will be on the market again.


----------



## Kal

seatrout said:


> My statement #2 is absolutely correct based on the exchange agreement in Hyatt website educational materials:
> 
> *Hyatt Portfolio website*:
> How do I make a Hyatt Residence Club Exchange reservation?
> Members of the Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program can use their Portfolio Program points to make Club-to-Club Exchange reservations for two-, three-, four-, and seven-night stays at any Hyatt Residence Club Resort from 12 months to one day before the desired arrival date.
> 
> *At HRC instruction*
> How do I make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation?
> If you are a Hyatt Residence Club member, but not a member of the Portfolio Program, you may still make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation for a stay of one to 30 nights up to six months before your requested arrival date (or as late as one day before) at Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program resorts.


For the highly sought after reservations, an owner will almost always need to be on the wait list.  IMHO, a person on the wait list would likely have the advantage over any HRC unit irrespective of HPP status.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

alexadeparis said:


> I believe after welk and Hyatt are integrated it will be on the market again.



Some hedge funds might find it a safer bet than shorting stocks.


----------



## Sapper

seatrout said:


> My statement #2 is absolutely correct based on the exchange agreement in Hyatt website educational materials:
> 
> *Hyatt Portfolio website*:
> How do I make a Hyatt Residence Club Exchange reservation?
> Members of the Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program can use their Portfolio Program points to make Club-to-Club Exchange reservations for two-, three-, four-, and seven-night stays at any Hyatt Residence Club Resort from 12 months to one day before the desired arrival date.
> 
> *At HRC instruction*
> How do I make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation?
> If you are a Hyatt Residence Club member, but not a member of the Portfolio Program, you may still make a Portfolio Program Exchange reservation for a stay of one to 30 nights up to six months before your requested arrival date (or as late as one day before) at Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program resorts.



You are confusing reservation systems with properties.

To make it simple, there are three buckets of points. 
1) HRC 2) HPP 3) HRC+HPP.
Bucket 1 may be booked only by HRC members >180 days. 
Bucket 2 may be booked only by HPP members >180 days. 
Bucket 3 may be booked by either HRC OR HPP members <179 days.


----------



## seatrout

Kal said:


> For the highly sought after reservations, an owner will almost always need to be on the wait list.  IMHO, a person on the wait list would likely have the advantage over any HRC unit irrespective of HPP status.


I agree with you there.  The issues however is the deposit pattern.  They  are different in HRC owner vs HPP.  HRC owner tend not to deposit early while all HPP have to "convert " by March.  Most of my best Hyatt reservation are early wait list and  wait till 6 month window.

On a side note, I don't think the maintenance fees will alter with Welk integration.  One of my favorite aspect about my Hyatt through the year is it it's inequality in point conversion currency.  Two bedroom in Aspen or Park Hyatt during ski weeks cost same number of points to book as two bedroom in Sedona.   Yet the maintenance fees and value of the two resort different greatly.  Because of this inequality,  those owners rarely deposit and would put it in the rental market for $$$.  In the early year, much of those coveted week were developer week as they were more expensive to sell.   We were lucky enough to book Siesta Keys during 4th of July, Aspen & Northstar during Xmas with my lowly Key West at the expense of developer units in the early years.  We were able to book repeatedly in the past.  Those days are gone now.  Marriott DC and Welk corrected these currency inequality as Welk Xmas in Northstar does not cost the same points to book as  Welk Xmas in Branson.  Also with Marriott, Ritz Xmas week or Maui does not cost the same points to book as Orlando. The value to those weeks, if deposited also  return more points and thus motivated the owner to deposit rather than rent.   Because of this, the  currency as it relate to maintenance fees correction are built in to each of Welk inventory.


----------



## seatrout

Sapper said:


> You are confusing reservation systems with properties.
> 
> To make it simple, there are three buckets of points.
> 1) HRC 2) HPP 3) HRC+HPP.
> Bucket 1 may be booked only by HRC members >180 days.
> Bucket 2 may be booked only by HPP members >180 days.
> Bucket 3 may be booked by either HRC OR HPP members <179 days.



Actually there are only two bucket
1) HRC
2) HPP
HRC pay booking fees $41 in any bucket
HRC may book bucket 1   at <365 days- - Although it would be rare for a HRC owner to deposit a week at 365 days. 
HRC May book Bucket  2 at <179 days via Club to Club Exchange
HRC can request bucket 1 at 18 months out

HPP can request bucket 1 or 2 based on tier
HPP can book bucket 1 at <366 days-  No booking fees or cleaning fees
HPP can book bucket 2 at <366 days via Club to club Exchange -  $41 "exchange" fees and cleaning fees
at <179 day you can use combination of HPP and HRC points book bucket 1 or 2 " $41exchange fees if using point that is outside bucket"


----------



## TravelTime

alexadeparis said:


> I believe after welk and Hyatt are integrated it will be on the market again.



This is one of my theories too


----------



## bradj

nuwermj said:


> Keep in mind that Welk has three years of unsold inventory at these locations. As it is sold off, availability will suffer.
> 
> Also, Marriott's conference call emphasized that they plan to put Welk units into Hyatt's rental markets. They claimed Welk has a very inefficient rental program. This too is going to squeeze availability.


As a long time HRC owner (was HVC when I bought over 20 years ago), I see nothing but dilution of the product I bought. The Welk acquisition will only increase competition for the, sometimes, harder to get, Hyatt locations we already have difficulty reserving. Welk aquisition = bad deal for current HRC owners


----------



## macntory

dmelcher13 said:


> This could be interesting...
> 
> 
> Dave


More industry consolidation does not bode well for members. More consolidation means less customer service and more confusion!


----------



## dioxide45

seatrout said:


> Actually there are only two bucket
> 1) HRC
> 2) HPP
> HRC pay booking fees $41 in any bucket
> HRC may book bucket 1   at <365 days- - Although it would be rare for a HRC owner to deposit a week at 365 days.
> HRC May book Bucket  2 at <179 days via Club to Club Exchange
> HRC can request bucket 1 at 18 months out
> 
> HPP can request bucket 1 or 2 based on tier
> HPP can book bucket 1 at <366 days-  No booking fees or cleaning fees
> HPP can book bucket 2 at <366 days via Club to club Exchange -  $41 "exchange" fees and cleaning fees
> at <179 day you can use combination of HPP and HRC points book bucket 1 or 2 " $41exchange fees if using point that is outside bucket"


So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?


----------



## Pathways

bradj said:


> As a long time HRC owner (was HVC when I bought over 20 years ago), I see nothing but dilution of the product I bought. The Welk acquisition will only increase competition for the, sometimes, harder to get, Hyatt locations we already have difficulty reserving. Welk aquisition = bad deal for current HRC owners



Hard to argue since none of us know how the two will be merged. However, I can't see any scenario where this 'points' group will affect my 'weeks' in any meaningful way.  What does 'difficult reserving' mean?  I certainly don't see it.


----------



## RunCat

alexadeparis said:


> And on that note if they Hyattize those units the MF will skyrocket for the Welkers.



Not sure that I agree since maintenance fees in Welk (points) are not resort dependent.   I used to own a week in Sheraton Mtn Vista. Even though the ownership was a summer week, the maintenance fees reflected the extra maintenance that was required during the winter months. When I converted to Flex, the overall maintenance fees actually went down a small amount due to the  averaging of the maintenance fee costs at the program resorts.


----------



## Shankilicious

Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pathways

dioxide45 said:


> So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?


Definitely NOT!


----------



## Pathways

seatrout said:


> Actually there are only two bucket
> 1) HRC
> 2) HPP
> HRC pay booking fees $41 in any bucket
> HRC may book bucket 1   at <365 days- - Although it would be rare for a HRC owner to deposit a week at 365 days.
> HRC May book Bucket  2 at <179 days via Club to Club Exchange
> HRC can request bucket 1 at 18 months out
> 
> HPP can request bucket 1 or 2 based on tier
> HPP can book _bucket 1_ at <366 days-  No booking fees or cleaning fees
> _HPP can book bucket 2 at <366 days via Club to club Exchange -  $41_ "exchange" fees and cleaning fees
> at <179 day you can use combination of HPP and HRC points book bucket 1 or 2 " $41exchange fees if using point that is outside bucket"


Please verify the highlighted - Me thinks you have your buckets backwards

Also, it would help to note for those not used to the HRC system, that HRC does NOT charge any booking fee for a home week reservation.  You can reserve 7 nights, 4, 3, or 2 nights, the whole unit, or split it off if it is a lock-off, all with no reservation fee.


----------



## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Love to know where in those posts you see that.

"much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants"   - as what?

I get the feeling there are some who think they should be able to reserve ANY week they want 3 weeks out.  I would help me drink the cool-aid if people would put some specifics to their 'difficult to reserve' comments so we have some perspective.  B/C I just don't see it.


----------



## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?



No this would not be possible.

In HRC, say I own week 1 at Resort X.  For my 2022 usage, I can reserve my owned week starting week 1 2021.  For six months, no one else can touch that week.  If I decide to book something else, then all of my points are given over to “Club Use” and my unit is relinquished to Hyatt for “Club Use”.  If I don’t do anything for that first six months of the reservation period, after 6 months the unit is automatically given up to “Club Use” and you’re given points to spend.

The real question becomes: who can access units in “Club Use”?  The “Club” in question was always Hyatt Residence Club, so that answer was easy.  Now there’s HRC and HPP.

Logically and legally, it seems that HRC should be able to access the HRC bucket exclusively unless the HRC owner specifically gives their unit up to HPP use (which can be done simply by choosing HPP inventory for a reservation without “converting” your week (I think) or by joining HPP).  But it’s not clear to we owners exactly what is happening.  Certainly HPP is being sold as giving HPP owners access to HRC inventory, but is this actually happening?  And if it is, is it legal?

Again, it’s hard to know what’s happening because:
1.  Zero roll out to owners outside the sales format
2.  Lies in the sales presentations


----------



## Shankilicious

Pathways said:


> Love to know where in those posts you see that.
> 
> "much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants" - as what?
> 
> I get the feeling there are some who think they should be able to reserve ANY week they want 3 weeks out. I would help me drink the cool-aid if people would put some specifics to their 'difficult to reserve' comments so we have some perspective. B/C I just don't see it.


Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what .... 
Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## bradj

Pathways said:


> Hard to argue since none of us know how the two will be merged. However, I can't see any scenario where this 'points' group will affect my 'weeks' in any meaningful way.  What does 'difficult reserving' mean?  I certainly don't see it.


To test the difficult factor, try reserving Sunset Harbor.


----------



## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what



You're referring to the Hyatt _*points owners*_, which was a recent change in Hyatt sales.  It has been universally panned as a terrible system.  I can't say anything good about it - which is why based on your comments and others, I hope the Hyatt point system is rolled into the 'Welk' system, not the other way.

Do I understand the booking in the Hyatt points system?  I do not.  But I don't care as like 99% on TUG, I only own HRC and we DO understand
*our* system.


----------



## travelhacker

Shankilicious said:


> Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I share similar fears to those posts and here's why:

1) 55,000 new owners potentially competing with Hyatt owners.
2) At most 25-30% of the inventory in the Welk trust (Northstar, Breck, Cabo) could be considered to be on par with Hyatt. 

I don't want to knock Welk too -- when people bought into that product they knew what they were getting. I can see how existing owners are very happy with their system. When Welk decided to turn more upscale, that's a great thing for existing owners.

Welk for the most part IS NOT what people bought into when they bought Hyatt and that's where the angst comes from. 

The vast, vast majority of Hyatt owners would not see giving up their week in Carmel for a week in Escondido as anything close to a "fair" trade. 

I spent a couple of weeks a year in Escondido when I was growing up (not at Welk -- but my cousins lived in Escondido). I loved going there growing up. However, it is NOT Carmel. It is NOT Coconut Plantation. It is NOT even a Wild Oak or Pinon Pointe (two of the most readily available reservations within Hyatt). 

A place like Escondido isn't even worth the vacation time I would be giving up....if I'm going to California I'm not staying in a suburb that's 30 minutes away from any major attraction....it has it's charm, but it is NOT what I bought into when I bought Hyatt. 

Right now, I can get just about anything I want in Hyatt within reason.  I've been able to book Christmas at the Hyatt Mountain Lodge, stays at the Hyatt Siesta Key, Fourth of July and ski weeks at the Park Hyatt (that one was COVID -- but still). If I have almost double the owners to compete with and they aren't bringing anything that I value into the equation, of course we're concerned about our ability to make a reservation _moving forward. _

One of my close friends is staying at the Park Hyatt _right _now on an HRC reservation. If we've got double the owners to "compete" with and they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table, of course we are concerned about how our ability to book if we are treated as equals in an integrated system.

The last thing that I'll say is that have you considered that the reason you are able to get what you want on short notice is because it simply isn't that desirable? 

Again, the exception is North Star and honestly if availability is good from Late December to March -- to me that simply means that Welk has a lot of owners that are not taking advantage of what they own.


----------



## heathpack

Shankilicious said:


> Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what ....
> Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Yes, and important for you to wrap your head around since you’re now owned by Hyatt.

Hyatt owners used to understand it just fine.  Then HPP.  No rollout to owners.  What salespeople claim can happen with HPP sounds illegal.  Are they lying in their sales pitches?  Are they breaking the law?  Do we not understand the legalities as we think we do?

But.  Now that you’re owned by Hyatt you might find yourself in the same boat.  You might get no info first, and then piecemeal info.  You might go to a sales pitch and listen to a salesman say that now HPP owners can book Welk inventory but you can’t book their inventory unless you buy 600 points for $13k.

So it seems like folks here are trying to give you valuable info but you’re putting your head in the sand and saying “Good thing I’m Welk because my system is easy”.  But now you’re Hyatt where it’s all murky and you can’t have confidence that you’ll ever be able to parse out the truth as to how they handle inventory buckets.  Prior to HPP, the Hyatt system was easy too.


----------



## Pathways

bradj said:


> To test the difficult factor, try reserving Sunset Harbor.


What week do you want?  Week 52 was recently available.  Any week tougher than that? I own week 47 (xgiving) but wanted 3 units for a family trip.  I had no issues getting the other 2 weeks. And I never used the wait list.  Others report a very high % of matches using the wait list.


----------



## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> No this would not be possible.
> 
> In HRC, say I own week 1 at Resort X.  For my 2022 usage, I can reserve my owned week starting week 1 2021.  For six months, no one else can touch that week.  If I decide to book something else, then all of my points are given over to “Club Use” and my unit is relinquished to Hyatt for “Club Use”.  If I don’t do anything for that first six months of the reservation period, after 6 months the unit is automatically given up to “Club Use” and you’re given points to spend.
> 
> The real question becomes: who can access units in “Club Use”?  The “Club” in question was always Hyatt Residence Club, so that answer was easy.  Now there’s HRC and HPP.
> 
> Logically and legally, it seems that HRC should be able to access the HRC bucket exclusively unless the HRC owner specifically gives their unit up to HPP use (which can be done simply by choosing HPP inventory for a reservation without “converting” your week (I think) or by joining HPP).  But it’s not clear to we owners exactly what is happening.  Certainly HPP is being sold as giving HPP owners access to HRC inventory, but is this actually happening?  And if it is, is it legal?
> 
> Again, it’s hard to know what’s happening because:
> 1.  Zero roll out to owners outside the sales format
> 2.  Lies in the sales presentations


Thanks. That other post post was confusing me, as it seemed it confused other too. I guess during the >6 month window, how does any availability get "unlocked". I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period. Can you book other weeks >6 months? I was almost thinking this worked like VSN (Vistana), where for months 12-8 you can book what you own at your home resort in your owned season. Then at 8 months everything is in "the club". The only difference here would be that HRC is 6 months instead of 8. Vistana has their own HPP called Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex (they have others, but we will keep it simple). In months 8-12 they can book what they own in their trust. I suspect HPP can do the same >6 months out. However with Vistana, all VSN members (weeks owner and Flex) at <8 months can book anything else that is now in "the club". So in reality, HPP weeks that are sitting in a trust should have the same rights and responsibilities as a week owned by a human. They just happened to be owned by a trust instead. So at 6 months, all unreserved HPP inventory should get dumped into the club, but should also be able to book other club inventory. Of course, weeks owners should now also have access to that HPP inventory that is now in the club. Just me wondering here if this is how it really all works (makes sense compared to Vistana and wasn't HPP created under ILG when they also owned Vistana)?


----------



## Pathways

heathpack said:


> Prior to HPP, the Hyatt system was easy too.


 100% - but must add - it's _*still easy*_ since we don't _*have*_ to use the points system


----------



## Shankilicious

travelhacker said:


> I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I share similar fears to those posts and here's why:
> 
> 1) 55,000 new owners potentially competing with Hyatt owners.
> 2) At most 25-30% of the inventory in the Welk trust (Northstar, Breck, Cabo) could be considered to be on par with Hyatt.
> 
> I don't want to knock Welk too -- when people bought into that product they knew what they were getting. I can see how existing owners are very happy with their system. When Welk decided to turn more upscale, that's a great thing for existing owners.
> 
> Welk for the most part IS NOT what people bought into when they bought Hyatt and that's where the angst comes from.
> 
> The vast, vast majority of Hyatt owners would not see giving up their week in Carmel for a week in Escondido as anything close to a "fair" trade.
> 
> I spent a couple of weeks a year in Escondido when I was growing up (not at Welk -- but my cousins lived in Escondido). I loved going there growing up. However, it is NOT Carmel. It is NOT Coconut Plantation. It is NOT even a Wild Oak or Pinon Pointe (two of the most readily available reservations within Hyatt).
> 
> A place like Escondido isn't even worth the vacation time I would be giving up....if I'm going to California I'm not staying in a suburb that's 30 minutes away from any major attraction....it has it's charm, but it is NOT what I bought into when I bought Hyatt.
> 
> Right now, I can get just about anything I want in Hyatt within reason. I've been able to book Christmas at the Hyatt Mountain Lodge, stays at the Hyatt Siesta Key, Fourth of July and ski weeks at the Park Hyatt (that one was COVID -- but still). If I have almost double the owners to compete with and they aren't bringing anything that I value into the equation, of course we're concerned about our ability to make a reservation _moving forward. _
> 
> One of my close friends is staying at the Park Hyatt _right _now on an HRC reservation. If we've got double the owners to "compete" with and they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table, of course we are concerned about how our ability to book if we are treated as equals in an integrated system.
> 
> The last thing that I'll say is that have you considered that the reason you are able to get what you want on short notice is because it simply isn't that desirable?
> 
> Again, the exception is North Star and honestly if availability is good from Late December to March -- to me that simply means that Welk has a lot of owners that are not taking advantage of what they own.



I've looked through all the HRC properties on the HRC website and with the exception of the one with the lazy river, I see a lot less family fun at HRC resorts. That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented. 
I don't think I've seen a resort in Cabo that looks as nice or has as much to do on site as Sirena Del Mar. 
So its really all about what one wants in a timeshare. 
Northstar availability in ski season is largely due to the large amount of every other year owners. They have an extremely hard time booking outside their use year and you won't easily be able to book Northstar March in mid January by the time a lot of EOY owners pay their MF. 
I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit. 
Hyatt is definitely top notch for accommodations but from I saw, it doesn't blow me away compared to Welk. But maybe their customer service and the little things on site make a huge difference?
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just stating my side of it. 
It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt. There are lots who bought to stay at Welk properties and Hyatt will obviously make owners pay to play/trade.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pathways

dioxide45 said:


> I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period


Pretty accurate.  Exception is there are some who release their week early even without a reservation.  For example, what if I want to grab an II trade?  A HRC owner only needs 1300 points for a high season 2 Bed II trade.

Think of it this way: Most systems release their weeks to all owners without home priority as 8 months.  With HRC, it is at 6 months.  Want Hawaii?  Be on your computer at 6 months earlier than the week you want.  Saturday 3-4am, those weeks are released.


----------



## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> Thanks. That other post post was confusing me, as it seemed it confused other too. I guess during the >6 month window, how does any availability get "unlocked". I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period. Can you book other weeks >6 months? I was almost thinking this worked like VSN (Vistana), where for months 12-8 you can book what you own at your home resort in your owned season. Then at 8 months everything is in "the club". The only difference here would be that HRC is 6 months instead of 8. Vistana has their own HPP called Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex (they have others, but we will keep it simple). In months 8-12 they can book what they own in their trust. I suspect HPP can do the same >6 months out. However with Vistana, all VSN members (weeks owner and Flex) at <8 months can book anything else that is now in "the club". So in reality, HPP weeks that are sitting in a trust should have the same rights and responsibilities as a week owned by a human. They just happened to be owned by a trust instead. So at 6 months, all unreserved HPP inventory should get dumped into the club, but should also be able to book other club inventory. Of course, weeks owners should now also have access to that HPP inventory that is now in the club. Just me wondering here if this is how it really all works (makes sense compared to Vistana and wasn't HPP created under ILG when they also owned Vistana)?



A lot of folks release their week early in the process so not all weeks become available at the 6 month mark.

Back to the week 1 example.  I might have a want something in II, or have an II request pending, or have a Hyatt waitlist hit, or see something in HRC inventory.  In any of those scenarios, I book what I want and my 2022 unit is released to the Club week 1 of 2021.  So there’s a little flurry of availability right at the 12 month out mark.

Then for the next six months, theres little trickles of availability as people book stuff in HRC or II.

Then at the six month mark, there’s another peak of availability as the owners who just did not act have their weeks released automatically to the Club.

Since all of these timetables relate to the week owned (rather than the calendar year), it’s constantly refreshing the Club with available units. 

So that’s to explain why there was always some availability in HRC year round for Cpub use.

Logically what makes legal sense to me is that:
1.  HRC only can book HRC inventory up until 6 months unless you book a HPP reservation in which case you put your unit for that year into HPP (this can be done without joining HPP), or unless you convert all your points in the first part of the year (can also be done without joining HPP).  Fuzzy area is what if you buy 600 HPP- are now your other 3000 points all HPP too?
2.  HPP can book only HPP inventory until 6 months out, including points which have originated in HRC but were used on a one time basis to book from HPP
3.  There is a single pool of inventory at 6 months out that can be booked by HPP or HRC

But HPP owners seem to think they can book HRC units at times when HRC people can’t.  It’s all murky because maybe that’s true- they’re accessing my HRC unit because I gave my unit up to make a HPP reservation.  An HPP owners access to that unit would be fair enough.  But if I used my HRC unit to book another HRC unit, then IMO HRC owners should have exclusive rights to that for the first 6 months.  It seems there’s no way you can figure this out.  When you book on the HRC website, the inventory is labeled as Portfolio (ie HPP) or Hyatt Residence Club (HRC) but the question is: if I give up my HRC week to book a HPP reservation, how would my deposit be labeled in inventory- as HPP or HRC?

And all of that speculation is for available on line inventory.  We can’t ever really see what they’re doing with waitlist requests.  Could they be poaching HRC inventory at the 12 month mark to fill HPP requests?  Yes they could be and we’d never know.


----------



## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit.



Don't bother as Covid time bookings are a complete anomaly.  Even the Hyatt in Maui has been an easy reservation this entire winter.



Shankilicious said:


> It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt.





Shankilicious said:


> That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented.



I think these are great observations.  That's why I am less concerned than others here.  If Welk owners were pining for a Hyatt resort, they would have bought there.

I understand the numbers create concern, but with HRC I not only own the week I bought, but the actual unit/view.  No consolidation can take that away.  (Can't say that about a points system)

Prices are great right now - I have three weeks submitted to ROFR.  Buy a unit where you want, when you want.  I have wanted Carmel for a long time, but only a full ocean view and a late summer/fall week.  The price finally dropped to where I jumped on it.


----------



## heathpack

Pathways said:


> 100% - but must add - it's _*still easy*_ since we don't _*have*_ to use the points system



I mean “easy to understand”.

I think I understand HPP and HRC only to constantly hear stuff to the contrary from HPP owners.  Definitely what people take away from HRC sales pitches sounds illegal to me. So is Hyatt acting legally, and HPP owners have been sold a bill of goods, and they think the reservations they’re getting are coming from HRC inventory but it’s real only HPP inventory?  Or is Hyatt acting illegally, giving HRC inventory to HPP owners via the waitlist mechanism?  Or am I wrong in thinking that is actually illegal?  

Im glad it’s all easy for you to understand.  But to me, it’s murky.


----------



## RunCat

From what I have read so far, I have come to the following conclusions: 
a) Hyatt owners believe that they have a far superior product to what Welk currently offers. 
b) Hyatt owners are concerned about how an influx of Welk point owners will impact their ability to use the product. 
c) There is much angst from both Welk and Hyatt owners about how a predominantly points system will merge with a predominantly weeks system. 
d) Neither side is happy about this merger. 

However, none of us really know what is going to happen. Points, reservation windows, ownership tiers, resorts trusts, will all have to change in order for this new system to work.   (eg, some Welk Owners can book 22 months in advance. All Welk owners can book 15 months in advance.  How does that work with the Hyatt system?).   My suspicion is that for each of the programs currently in place, nothing will change;  everyone will keep what they have. Instead, a "new" program will be created that will allow for cross platform reservations and there will be a buy-in cost.  And finally, escrow has not yet closed on the deal. Things can still change.


----------



## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> A lot of folks release their week early in the process so not all weeks become available at the 6 month mark.



So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?



> Back to the week 1 example.  I might have a want something in II, or have an II request pending, or have a Hyatt waitlist hit, or see something in HRC inventory.  In any of those scenarios, I book what I want and my 2022 unit is released to the Club week 1 of 2021.  So there’s a little flurry of availability right at the 12 month out mark.
> 
> Then for the next six months, theres little trickles of availability as people book stuff in HRC or II.
> 
> Then at the six month mark, there’s another peak of availability as the owners who just did not act have their weeks released automatically to the Club.
> 
> Since all of these timetables relate to the week owned (rather than the calendar year), it’s constantly refreshing the Club with available units.
> 
> So that’s to explain why there was always some availability in HRC year round for Cpub use.
> 
> Logically what makes legal sense to me is that:
> 1.  HRC only can book HRC inventory up until 6 months unless you book a HPP reservation in which case you put your unit for that year into HPP (this can be done without joining HPP), or unless you convert all your points in the first part of the year (can also be done without joining HPP).  Fuzzy area is what if you buy 600 HPP- are now your other 3000 points all HPP too?
> 2.  HPP can book only HPP inventory until 6 months out, including points which have originated in HRC but were used on a one time basis to book from HPP
> 3.  There is a single pool of inventory at 6 months out that can be booked by HPP or HRC




Based on how other systems work here and my understanding of trust based timeshare system, how can HRC book a week that is sitting in HPP >6 months out? (see #2)
I would think that at >6 months out that HPP could release their inventory to the club, just like an weeks owner could do. That inventory then becomes available to HRC owners, but of course HPP now has rights to a week in HRC. HRC could also book a week in HRC but some week of equivalent points has to move from HPP to HRC.
This makes sense and would be how Vistana works also
Marriott is kind of unique. They essentially dump almost all DC trust inventory into "the club" (aka DC Exchange Company) at 12 months out. There are likely exceptions, but the system is very fluid. The difference here though is that Marriott allowed weeks owners (HRC equivalent) to enroll for a fee).



> But HPP owners seem to think they can book HRC units at times when HRC people can’t.  It’s all murky because maybe that’s true- they’re accessing my HRC unit because I gave my unit up to make a HPP reservation.  An HPP owners access to that unit would be fair enough.  But if I used my HRC unit to book another HRC unit, then IMO HRC owners should have exclusive rights to that for the first 6 months.  It seems there’s no way you can figure this out.  When you book on the HRC website, the inventory is labeled as Portfolio (ie HPP) or Hyatt Residence Club (HRC) but the question is: if I give up my HRC week to book a HPP reservation, how would my deposit be labeled in inventory- as HPP or HRC?
> 
> And all of that speculation is for available on line inventory.  We can’t ever really see what they’re doing with waitlist requests.  Could they be poaching HRC inventory at the 12 month mark to fill HPP requests?  Yes they could be and we’d never know.



I think here though is that a week owned by a trust has the same rights as a week owned by an individual. HPP could book inventory that a week owner gave up to the club as long as HPP offers a week up to the club in exchange, thus making that week also available to HRC.

As you say, there is very little transparency in the system. I think the reason that Hyatt didn't offer "enrollment" like Marriott did is because they already had a points based club (HRC). Vistana was the same. They didn't offer any kind of enrollment for their Westin or Sheraton Flex programs. I think that HPP and the two Vistana Flex programs suffer from the same problems, there is really no reason why someone that can already book using points should really need to buy into them.

ETA: I think there are actually three buckets of inventory here

Weeks Owners - No one can touch unless you book something from the club or release your week to the club. Not yet released to the club.
HRC - Weeks released to the club
HPP - Weeks owned by the trust and not yet available in the club
Weeks inventory isn't necessarily HRC. Does this make sense?


----------



## Pathways

heathpack said:


> Im glad it’s all easy for you to understand. But to me, it’s murky.



Note I said 'easy'  b/c I don't play in the HPP part.  I don't believe anyone truly understands what is going on the the HPP system.  Most of the sales staff is clueless - others act like they know, but you can't really push back on their interpretation b/c no one has any facts.

My weeks work great, trades have been acceptable.  I have no need to utilize the HPP


----------



## Pathways

dioxide45 said:


> So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?



Correct - you can release at any time and do nothing else


----------



## bradj

I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.


----------



## dioxide45

bradj said:


> I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.


Just to be precise, because there are a lot of acronyms used here, there is no HVC. I think you mean HRC or Hyatt. HVC could also be confused for Hilton. In reality, these are businesses that can be bought and sold. The management rights to resorts can be bought and sold. Your resort is a condo and has an underlying HOA. The resort is owned by the owners. Though the developer may still own inventory in the condo and may even own common, retail or food and beverage space. That unsold inventory can be sold to another developer.

I do agree, that Marriott Vacations Worldwide isn't buying Welk to improve the product for Hyatt owners. Though some may get benefits from it if they have new resorts to book. They want to make the company more valuable. Potentially for a spinoff, but no one knows if that is their plan. Hyatt is a pretty small network of resorts, adding Welk still doesn't bring it to the scale of Marriott Vacation Club, Wyndham or Hilton Grand Vacations. Though it could make it viable for a spinoff down the road.


----------



## Pathways

bradj said:


> I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.


Of course not. Remember, you didn't buy HVC (now called HRC).  You bought Beach House from Spottswood Development.  Your elected BOD can leave the (now) HRC anytime when the management contract is up and be a stand alone resort!

If Hyatt, (now MVC) buys enough weeks at your resort to put into the points system and has enough votes to control the BOD, then the resort will more or less be a 'Marriott' resort.

We all know the bottom line here is selling more points


----------



## Kal

Shankilicious said:


> Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what ....
> Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is.


Your description of the Welk booking process is EXACTLY the same as HRC. 

The vast majority of HRC owners know how the system works.  It's fairly simple where you need to plan ahead and use the request list for the difficult resort-weeks to book.  Otherwise, if you have points in your account, search for availability and book what you see.


----------



## seatrout

dioxide45 said:


> So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on how other systems work here and my understanding of trust based timeshare system, how can HRC book a week that is sitting in HPP >6 months out? (see #2)
> I would think that at >6 months out that HPP could release their inventory to the club, just like an weeks owner could do. That inventory then becomes available to HRC owners, but of course HPP now has rights to a week in HRC. HRC could also book a week in HRC but some week of equivalent points has to move from HPP to HRC.
> This makes sense and would be how Vistana works also
> Marriott is kind of unique. They essentially dump almost all DC trust inventory into "the club" (aka DC Exchange Company) at 12 months out. There are likely exceptions, but the system is very fluid. The difference here though is that Marriott allowed weeks owners (HRC equivalent) to enroll for a fee).
> 
> 
> 
> I think here though is that a week owned by a trust has the same rights as a week owned by an individual. HPP could book inventory that a week owner gave up to the club as long as HPP offers a week up to the club in exchange, thus making that week also available to HRC.
> 
> As you say, there is very little transparency in the system. I think the reason that Hyatt didn't offer "enrollment" like Marriott did is because they already had a points based club (HRC). Vistana was the same. They didn't offer any kind of enrollment for their Westin or Sheraton Flex programs. I think that HPP and the two Vistana Flex programs suffer from the same problems, there is really no reason why someone that can already book using points should really need to buy into them.
> 
> ETA: I think there are actually three buckets of inventory here
> 
> Weeks Owners - No one can touch unless you book something from the club or release your week to the club. Not yet released to the club.
> HRC - Weeks released to the club
> HPP - Weeks owned by the trust and not yet available in the club
> Weeks inventory isn't necessarily HRC. Does this make sense?



clarification on your buckets. It is no different than Marriott DC buckets

1. Weeks owner—. Correct
2. HRC inventory -  Correct
3. HPP inventory. -  pure HPP from trust owner’. Unsold developer inventory, Week owner that  convert their inventory to HPP that year

Hyatt then created an exchange company  — base on my understanding of the exchange agreement
HPP have access to HRC inventory during the club use period. the Exchange agreement allow HRC to exchange to HPP at 6 month mark. The exchange agreements favor HPP

neither side can touch weeks home club use inventory until they are release to either HPP or HRC

that being said, any unsold build up inventory by Welk will become HPP inventory


----------



## Tenga

bradj said:


> I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.


Hey Bradi, I'm willing to bet you a nice steak dinner that you and 99.97 percent of HRC owners are not aware that they have been without active club leadership for over 18 months now! Yup no president, John Burlingame, gone! No secretary, gone! No treasure, gone! HRC management system has been eroded away to just 3 region's divisional manager's. East, West and Hawaii, these 3 regional managers take there orders from Marriott Vacation Club CEO  Stephen P Weisz. 
BTW I 100 percent agree with you that MVC has had 4 years to enhance our Hyatt vacation experience and could not do it! So its gearing up to unload for a profit of course, after all its responsible to its shareholders not club members!
Regards,
Tenga


----------



## Shankilicious

Kal said:


> Your description of the Welk booking process is EXACTLY the same as HRC.
> 
> The vast majority of HRC owners know how the system works. It's fairly simple where you need to plan ahead and use the request list for the difficult resort-weeks to book. Otherwise, if you have points in your account, search for availability and book what you see.


There is no request list and no different buckets and plenty of inventory to pull from for Welk owners. I've never heard anyone have to be on at a certain time exactly a year out of the maximum time out to have a good chance of getting the unit they want. It's just not an issue because of the maximum flexibility of a system that is nearly entirely points. (I know statistically 25% of owners have weeks but I believe 75% of those weeks owners also own points. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## seatrout

Pathways said:


> Please verify the highlighted - Me thinks you have your buckets backwards
> 
> Also, it would help to note for those not used to the HRC system, that HRC does NOT charge any booking fee for a home week reservation.  You can reserve 7 nights, 4, 3, or 2 nights, the whole unit, or split it off if it is a lock-off, all with no reservation fee.



HPP is trying to copy the Marriott DC

HRC has Booking fees, lock off and canceling fees,  you can also only book 2,3,4,7 night

HPP is the new system. when use HPP point to book HPP inventory. There is no booking fees, you are allow several free cancellations depending on tier.  You are also allow several free cleaning  fees or so call lock off fees.  However when you use HPP to book HRC inventory then  charges ret


----------



## dioxide45

seatrout said:


> clarification on your buckets. It is no different than Marriott DC buckets
> 
> 1. Weeks owner—. Correct
> 2. HRC inventory -  Correct
> 3. HPP inventory. -  pure HPP from trust owner’. Unsold developer inventory, Week owner that  convert their inventory to HPP that year
> 
> Hyatt then created an exchange company  — base on my understanding of the exchange agreement
> HPP have access to HRC inventory during the club use period. the Exchange agreement allow HRC to exchange to HPP at 6 month mark. The exchange agreements favor HPP
> 
> neither side can touch weeks home club use inventory until they are release to either HPP or HRC
> 
> that being said, any unsold build up inventory by Welk will become HPP inventory


How can a week owner convert their inventory to HPP? Do they also have to own HPP to do so?

It seems that Hyatt may have created two exchange companies here? You mention HRC. That is essentially an exchange company for weeks based intervals. HPP is a trust, not sure how a week owner can convert their week to a trust in a given year. There may be another exchange company for HPP?


----------



## Pathways

Shankilicious said:


> It's just not an issue because of the maximum flexibility of a system that is nearly entirely points.



OK - Here is where we part ways.  It has NOTHING to do with 'maximum flexibility'.  It's called 'supply and demand'.  Your system clearly has more units available at a location than owners requesting them.  It's that simple.


----------



## VacationForever

b2bailey said:


> I don't have a horse in this race, but I have stayed at the Escondido (not really San Diego) and the Palm Springs (but not really PS) locations. I would in no way consider those two to be on par with my expectations for a Hyatt location.


Ditto.  I refuse to go back to Welk in Palm Springs and Escondido - leaky roof, cobwebs and black mold in the units.


----------



## travelhacker

Shankilicious said:


> I've looked through all the HRC properties on the HRC website and with the exception of the one with the lazy river, I see a lot less family fun at HRC resorts. That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented.
> I don't think I've seen a resort in Cabo that looks as nice or has as much to do on site as Sirena Del Mar.
> So its really all about what one wants in a timeshare.
> Northstar availability in ski season is largely due to the large amount of every other year owners. They have an extremely hard time booking outside their use year and you won't easily be able to book Northstar March in mid January by the time a lot of EOY owners pay their MF.
> I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit.
> Hyatt is definitely top notch for accommodations but from I saw, it doesn't blow me away compared to Welk. But maybe their customer service and the little things on site make a huge difference?
> I'm not trying to pick a fight, just stating my side of it.
> It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt. There are lots who bought to stay at Welk properties and Hyatt will obviously make owners pay to play/trade.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


These are good points.

To your point about family resorts there are 2 GREAT family resorts:
- Coconut Plantation (Bonita Springs)
- Wild Oak Ranch

Coconut Plantation has an amazing lazy river, beautiful pools, and is in a really fun location. You also get shared use of the Hyatt Regency Coconut Plantation pools and waterslides. The waterslides there are water park quality and A LOT of fun. 

I haven't been to Wild Oak Ranch, but it appears there is quite a bit to do in the area.  Wild Oak Ranch has a lazy river and indoor water slide that I am certain our young kids will LOVE. 

I think you could also make an argument for the Beaver Creek resorts as great family resorts. They don't have waterslides or fun activities, but they are in a middle of a resort that markets to families. There are several free activities daily that Beaver Creek ski resort offers. There are also low cost fun, family activities like their rodeo.  

While I do think our kids would enjoy staying at the Welk resort in Branson with indoor pool and waterslide, to me it doesn't really compare favorably to the existing family resorts in the Hyatt system so I would prioritize stays at those locations.

For me the extras are the top notch accommodations at a reasonable price. I am able to take advantage of low season, but I would guess that my average cost per night for my stays in HRC properties thus far has been around $75 per night (this is unique because of mountain time in the Hyatt system). If you have a low maintenance fee week with a good number of points in Hyatt and avoid Saturdays, it's very possible to average about $130 or so per night without a whole lot of effort.


----------



## Kal

The entire dialog is based on no knowledge of the Hyatt/Welk agreement.  All we know is HPP is totally based on points ownership (with weeks held in Trust).  HRC is totally based on deeded week ownership.  Welk brings owners in two categories: points ownership (with weeks held in Trust) [75%] and deeded week ownership [25%].

So how does one merge those Welk groups into Hyatt?  Seems to me, the points owners go into HPP and the weeks owners go into HRC.  Each group adds value to the Hyatt system.  The operational details become a real challenge.... 

Entry into the HPP points system could upset either side due to fees.  HPP owners would be outraged if Welk points owners got in at a low fee.  Welk owners would be outraged if they had to pay $13,000.  Let the sausage making begin.

Entry into the HRC weeks system could cause heartburn depending how HRC valuates each Welk property and new restrictions on booking timelines.  HRC owners might have issues with an influx of new "competitors" for existing availability of HRC properties.

My take is that the Welk program will remain as a stand alone function.  That's the easy way out while still enhancing the "corporate portfolio" of holdings.


----------



## bradj

Pathways said:


> You're referring to the Hyatt _*points owners*_, which was a recent change in Hyatt sales.  It has been universally panned as a terrible system.  I can't say anything good about it - which is why based on your comments and others, I hope the Hyatt point system is rolled into the 'Welk' system, not the other way.
> 
> Do I understand the booking in the Hyatt points system?  I do not.  But I don't care as like 99% on TUG, I only own HRC and we DO understand
> *our* system.


To put it simply, the only thing that you need to understand is that once you buy HPP points they have no value. ZERO!


----------



## Pathways

seatrout said:


> HRC has Booking fees, lock off and canceling fees, you can also only book 2,3,4,7 night



No booking fees unless you exchange your owned week to a different one.  No such thing as a 'lock off fee'



seatrout said:


> HPP is the new system. when use HPP point to book HPP inventory. There is no booking fees, you are allow several free cancellations depending on tier



Free cancels are ONLY when you cancel 90 days out.  Otherwise $51.



seatrout said:


> You are also allow several free cleaning fees or so call lock off fees



Only 1 free unless you own more than 2200 points, 2 up to 4400 etc. 

Accurate from the original HPC docs unless they have adjusted them


----------



## seatrout

dioxide45 said:


> How can a week owner convert their inventory to HPP? Do they also have to own HPP to do so?
> 
> It seems that Hyatt may have created two exchange companies here? You mention HRC. That is essentially an exchange company for weeks based intervals. HPP is a trust, not sure how a week owner can convert their week to a trust in a given year. There may be another exchange company for HPP?


Once you "hyattized" your account -  which required to buy some HPP points - in my case 500 point

Your account now have three inventory
1.  Weeks
2. HRC  (weeks that you have convert to HRC points)
2.  HPP

Every year- just as in Marriott DC.  You can "elect" the week to HRC or HPP  OR reserve your home club week.  Once they are in HPP bucket -- it make no different if they are HPP  that you deposit, HPP that you purchased from trust.  (Since you have to buy some HPP trust bucket to play the game anyway-- they did not have to scare us like Marriott where there is a "trust DC bucket" and "enrolled owner DC deposit bucket"
The new "Club to Club exchange"  only occurs when you exchange between HRC and HPP

Once in HPP- you can also convert those to Hyatt hotel point

Hope that help


----------



## seatrout

Pathways said:


> Free cancels are ONLY when you cancel 90 days out.  Otherwise $51.
> 
> 
> 
> Only 1 free unless you own more than 2200 points, 2 up to 4400 etc.
> 
> Accurate from the original HPC docs unless they have adjusted them


You are correct, the number of "free stuff" is tier dependent.


----------



## bradj

Pathways said:


> What week do you want?  Week 52 was recently available.  Any week tougher than that? I own week 47 (xgiving) but wanted 3 units for a family trip.  I had no issues getting the other 2 weeks. And I never used the wait list.  Others report a very high % of matches using the wait list.


You're lucky! Owning week 47 gives you some pretty good opportunities to book around your deeded week. Both sides (45-46 & 48-50) are lower demand weeks.


----------



## Pathways

This thread is more about Welk to Hyatt, Not HRC vs HPC but,

I viewed the the points club like the Disney Dining Plan.  Buy it and a lot of fees _*can *_go away.  But when I added those fees up and compared them to the *much *higher $/pt MF, I said 'never mind' .  I could never spend that much in fees.


----------



## Pathways

bradj said:


> You're lucky! Owning week 47 gives you some pretty good opportunities to book around your deeded week. Both sides (45-46 & 48-50) are lower demand weeks.


True, but I was concerned about getting the 3 Thanksgiving weeks. Its an easy grab at Beach House or Windward Point, but I want them all at SH.  Every year we have tried, I got all 3.   (Everyone is still working, so the side weeks don't work for us.)


----------



## Pathways

seatrout said:


> You are correct, the number of "free stuff" is tier dependent



Again, away from the thread subject, but..

I was told even if I 'Hyattize to points' my weeks in the ownership, the tier for free stuff changes each year depending on whether I actually turn my week into points.  Is that correct?


----------



## Tenga

Kal said:


> The entire dialog is based on no knowledge of the Hyatt/Welk agreement.  All we know is HPP is totally based on points ownership (with weeks held in Trust).  HRC is totally based on deeded week ownership.  Welk brings owners in two categories: points ownership (with weeks held in Trust) [75%] and deeded week ownership [25%].
> 
> So how does one merge those Welk groups into Hyatt?  Seems to me, the points owners go into HPP and the weeks owners go into HRC.  Each group adds value to the Hyatt system.  The operational details become a real challenge....
> 
> Entry into the HPP points system could upset either side due to fees.  HPP owners would be outraged if Welk points owners got in at a low fee.  Welk owners would be outraged if they had to pay $13,000.  Let the sausage making begin.
> 
> Entry into the HRC weeks system could cause heartburn depending how HRC valuates each Welk property and new restrictions on booking timelines.  HRC owners might have issues with an influx of new "competitors" for existing availability of HRC properties.
> 
> My take is that the Welk program will remain as a stand alone function.  That's the easy way out while still enhancing the "corporate portfolio" of holdings.


Hi Kal, Stephen Weisz a 35 year Marriott company man knows that if he keeps both programs "HRC/Welk" as stand alone, no buyer would be willing to pick up that trud, making it almost impossible to sell.  IMO he has no choice but to integrate at the expense to both the HRC and Welk owners to keep MVC corporate shareholders and him out of the hot seat.  If I was in his shoes, I'd do the same,  Weisz has no choice but to bring Welk into HRC. It will be painful no doubt, and the final product will be a loss for all the owners involved.  But the new owner of the now combined products/who ever that maybe, can pick up here and move forward! No one wants to buy a broken down club!
Regards,
Tenga


----------



## seatrout

Pathways said:


> Again, away from the thread subject, but..
> 
> I was told even if I 'Hyattize to points' my weeks in the ownership, the tier for free stuff changes each year depending on whether I actually turn my week into points.  Is that correct?


Yes.  but if you don't occupied the home club.  I do noe see a benefit of converting to HRC as to HPP.


----------



## bradj

Tenga said:


> Hey Bradi, I'm willing to bet you a nice steak dinner that you and 99.97 percent of HRC owners are not aware that they have been without active club leadership for over 18 months now! Yup no president, John Burlingame, gone! No secretary, gone! No treasure, gone! HRC management system has been eroded away to just 3 region's divisional manager's. East, West and Hawaii, these 3 regional managers take there orders from Marriott Vacation Club CEO  Stephen P Weisz.
> BTW I 100 percent agree with you that MVC has had 4 years to enhance our Hyatt vacation experience and could not do it! So its gearing up to unload for a profit of course, after all its responsible to its shareholders not club members!
> Regards,
> Tenga


I won't take your "nice steak dinner" bet. It would be a sure loss and I'd be out a steak dinner. You're right, this whole merger is a set up for a likely future sale. We just don't know when. Resort owners are not even a small factor in this scenario.


----------



## bradj

Tenga said:


> Hi Kal, Stephen Weisz a 35 year Marriott company man knows that if he keeps both programs "HRC/Welk" as stand alone, no buyer would be willing to pick up that trud, making it almost impossible to sell.  IMO he has no choice but to integrate at the expense to both the HRC and Welk owners to keep MVC corporate shareholders and him out of the hot seat.  If I was in his shoes, I'd do the same,  Weisz has no choice but to bring Welk into HRC. It will be painful no doubt, and the final product will be a loss for all the owners involved.  But the new owner of the now combined products/who ever that maybe, can pick up here and move forward! No one wants to buy a broken down club!
> Regards,
> Tenga


Finally, after all of these posts Tenga has this 100% right. Great vision. THANKS! And you did it all in one compact paragraph!


----------



## Pathways

seatrout said:


> Yes.  but if you don't occupied the home club.  I do noe see a benefit of converting to HRC as to HPP.


Sorry, not following, maybe an edit needed?  I don't convert anything.  All my weeks are HRC.  You cannot 'convert to HRC'


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## bradj

dioxide45 said:


> Just to be precise, because there are a lot of acronyms used here, there is no HVC. I think you mean HRC or Hyatt. HVC could also be confused for Hilton. In reality, these are businesses that can be bought and sold. The management rights to resorts can be bought and sold. Your resort is a condo and has an underlying HOA. The resort is owned by the owners. Though the developer may still own inventory in the condo and may even own common, retail or food and beverage space. That unsold inventory can be sold to another developer.
> 
> I do agree, that Marriott Vacations Worldwide isn't buying Welk to improve the product for Hyatt owners. Though some may get benefits from it if they have new resorts to book. They want to make the company more valuable. Potentially for a spinoff, but no one knows if that is their plan. Hyatt is a pretty small network of resorts, adding Welk still doesn't bring it to the scale of Marriott Vacation Club, Wyndham or Hilton Grand Vacations. Though it could make it viable for a spinoff down the road.


My original contract was with Hyatt Vacation Club which at the time was HVC


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## Pathways

bradj said:


> You're right, this whole merger is a set up for a likely future sale.



I get that they need to be merged.  I don't get the sale part.  Hyatt back office is all already gone.  Welk back office and all that overhead will surely be gone within weeks of the closing.  Agreements with Hyatt Hotels over the branding will be reached.  Others have noted that Welk has three years of points to sell. The sales force at Welk with learn 'high pressure' and brag about joining Hyatt to their marks.

At that point, it's a cash cow.   Why would they give up all that pure profit?


----------



## seatrout

Pathways said:


> Sorry, not following, maybe an edit needed?  I don't convert anything.  All my weeks are HRC.  You cannot 'convert to HRC'


You owned deeded week. It is not in HRC until you elect CUP


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## seatrout

Pathways said:


> I get that they need to be merged.  I don't get the sale part.  Hyatt back office is all already gone.  Welk back office and all that overhead will surely be gone within weeks of the closing.  Agreements with Hyatt Hotels over the branding will be reached.  Others have noted that Welk has three years of points to sell. The sales force at Welk with learn 'high pressure' and brag about joining Hyatt to their marks.
> 
> At that point, it's a cash cow.   Why would they give up all that pure profit?


The existing club to club exchange agreement between HPP and HRC maybe a model for integration with the newly HWC inventory 

the point conversion will be the challenge and interesting thing to see go between HWC and the existing Hyatt products


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## Pathways

seatrout said:


> You owned deeded week. It is not in HRC until you elect CUP



Sure it is.  All weeks are HRC.  It's called HRPP at the beginning of your year.  You cannot own a week in the system that is not part of the HRC


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## Tenga

Pathways said:


> I get that they need to be merged.  I don't get the sale part.  Hyatt back office is all already gone.  Welk back office and all that overhead will surely be gone within weeks of the closing.  Agreements with Hyatt Hotels over the branding will be reached.  Others have noted that Welk has three years of points to sell. The sales force at Welk with learn 'high pressure' and brag about joining Hyatt to their marks.
> 
> At that point, it's a cash cow.   Why would they give up all that pure profit?


Hi Pathways, simple here is the answer to your question. HPP not a profit maker, never was. It was a quick rolled out project to compete with the competition in the industry. Unfortunately it never worked with in the club. Its inherit design was doomed to fail.  It was by HRC shortsideness with them thinking that the weeks owner/holder would buy into the program as it was touted as the cats meow, you can have you cake and eat it too! By bringing in 55K + new members into the HPP equation= disaster to a already bad program!

MVC can "NOT" integrate HRC into its system, Its own large Marriott membership can't access into HRC properties why keep it?  If I'm a MVC owner and my membership does not allow me use into HRC then what is the point of keeping it under the Marriott umbrella?  Marriott never wanted HRC, it was a package deal! Marriott  only wanted Interval International, it was all or nothing. Now MVC has what it wanted all along II, No reason to keep HRC. Best way to sell HRC is to enlarge/expand so its more attractive to the new owner.  Simple as that.
Regards,
Tenga


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## seatrout

Pathways said:


> Sure it is.  All weeks are HRC.  It's called HRPP at the beginning of your year.  You cannot own a week in the system that is not part of the HRC


Clarification. It is not in HRC bucket for people to book till you go to CUP


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## dioxide45

So what does HPP stand for? I see a new term here HRPP which has me confused. What is HRPP? I see in 10-k filing from ILG that they created a program called Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program in 2017. I think this is what everyone is calling HPP? No?


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## Tenga

So what does HPP stand for?  Wait, wait, I have it!   "Holy  Problem People" ! 
!

Tenga


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## Pathways

Confusing eh?  HRPP and CUP and a few others are specific Hyatt club terms describing your points.

When Hyatt was planning to roll out the points program, the term PPP or 'pure points program' was used by Tugger's.  When it officially rolled out it was named Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program, so most now use HPP


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## dioxide45

So back to integration questions. We know the following

Hyatt has weeks owners - They have access to a points booking club.
Welk has weeks owners (25%) - Is there a points booking club for these owners, or can they only book their week or exchange through II
Hyatt has pure point owners - What if you owned a week when you bought points? Did they convert your deeded week to the points system?
Welk has pure point owners too - What if you own Welk points and Welk weeks?


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## dioxide45

Pathways said:


> Confusing eh?  HRPP and CUP and a few others are specific Hyatt club terms describing your points.
> 
> When Hyatt was planning to roll out the points program, the term PPP or 'pure points program' was used by Tugger's.  When it officially rolled out it was named Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program, so most now use HPP


Okay, then to say Hyatt weeks owners are HRPP at the beginning of their year isn't a correct statement. If HRPP were to somehow stand for Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program.


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## Pathways

dioxide45 said:


> Okay, then to say Hyatt weeks owners are HRPP at the beginning of their year isn't a correct statement. If HRPP were to somehow stand for Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio Program.


HRPP stands for 'Home Resort Preference Period'
CUP stands for 'Club Use Period"

There are others.. Tough to learn if you only own one week.  Two or more it becomes easy

Kinda like the starwood/vistana/westin etc.   I own only one week. I just can't seem to remember all the terms


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## Kal

seatrout said:


> You owned deeded week. It is not in HRC until you elect CUP


It might me a fine point, but you don't have to "elect CUP".  The only real option is to "confirm HRPP".  That means you will occupy the unit-week you own.  If you don't confirm the HRPP unit by 6 months, the points will go into cup automatically.  If you use any of the new points, even on day 1, the balance of points will go into CUP.

For me I have never "elected CUP" in decades of ownership.  My ONLY concern was to reserve my HRPP week, or make sure I had enough CUP points to make whatever reservations I desired.


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## nuwermj

travelhacker said:


> The vast, vast majority of Hyatt owners would not see giving up their week in Carmel for a week in Escondido as anything close to a "fair" trade.



I agree with most of your comment and appreciate your thoughts. I would add, however, that Escondido would not trade week for week. I crunched some numbers and I think the exchange rate for point will about 210-220 Welk points for one Hyatt point. At that rate, a 2BR at the Villas in Escondido will be a Hyatt "copper" unit, 1,100 Hyatt points. Even in the prime summer months when the resort is always full.


----------



## Kal

dioxide45 said:


> ...Hyatt has pure point owners - What if you owned a week when you bought points? Did they convert your deeded week to the points system?...


If you buy into the HPP, you just hand them $13,000 and they give you ~670 HPP points.  Other than a much of mumo-jumbo, "verbal promises" and some hotel points, that's all you get.  Those 670 HPP points are almost worthless in trying to book something.  If you own a 2000 point HRC week, you can transfer that week into HPP and you then have 2670 HPP points and operate at the "Beginner's Tier 1" level.

Bear in mind, you would be throwing $13,000 (which you cannot recover by resale) into a timeshare program.  In the US, the timeshare systems in general are globally retreating.  Resale prices are dropping dramatically.  Many owners are beginning to think about the "end-game".  The last guy out is holding an empty bag.


----------



## nuwermj

dioxide45 said:


> So back to integration questions. We know the following
> 
> Hyatt has weeks owners - They have access to a points booking club.
> Welk has weeks owners (25%) - Is there a points booking club for these owners, or can they only book their week or exchange through II



Welk weeks owners (only two locations, San Diego and Palm Springs. No week owners elsewhere). There is no points booking club. II or RCI or other exchange company can be used.



dioxide45 said:


> Hyatt has pure point owners - What if you owned a week when you bought points? Did they convert your deeded week to the points system?
> Welk has pure point owners too - What if you own Welk points and Welk weeks?



I own both Welk points and a deeded week. I traded three deeded weeks for points, keep the the other deeded weeks. My former deeds were then deposited into the trust fund, and I got the equivalent amount of points.


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## seatrout

Kal said:


> It might me a fine point, but you don't have to "elect CUP".  The only real option is to "confirm HRPP".  That means you will occupy the unit-week you own.  If you don't confirm the HRPP unit by 6 months, the points will go into cup automatically.  If you use any of the new points, even on day 1, the balance of points will go into CUP.
> 
> For me I have never "elected CUP" in decades of ownership.  My ONLY concern was to reserve my HRPP week, or make sure I had enough CUP points to make whatever reservations I desired.


Until you  reserve HRPP or went to CUP by default at 6 month. That inventory is not available for other HRC owner to book
In the decade that I have owned, I have never been to my deeded weeks


----------



## RunCat

From what I have been reading, it seems that the HPP system was built and but did not provide a real incentive to join.  When I  converted Welk weeks to Welk points the incentive was access to the new resorts.  Neither Cabo, Northstar, Breckenridge, the "experience collection" et al are available to owners that do not own points; the weeks owners only get weeks at their resort  (either fixed or float).  
And when I converted Northstar and Breckenridge were not even part of the collection. The resort expansion provided increased value to the points I already owned.


----------



## Kal

seatrout said:


> Until you  reserve HRPP or went to CUP by default at 6 month. That inventory is not available for other HRC owner to book
> In the decade that I have owned, I have never been to my deeded weeks


If an owner tries to get the unit back from CUP during the HRPP period, it's gone and not retrievable.  Your account shows it as gone from HRPP and the points are in CUP.  It sounds like you are suggesting it goes to a "never, never land" floating category until 6 months?


----------



## Pathways

RunCat said:


> the HPP system was built and but did not provide a real incentive to join



Actually, it was a perfect match.  A crap incentive for a crap product!


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## Sugarcubesea

alexadeparis said:


> I believe after welk and Hyatt are integrated it will be on the market again.



I bet that is exactly what will happen...


----------



## seatrout

Kal said:


> If an owner tries to get the unit back from CUP during the HRPP period, it's gone and not retrievable.  Your account shows it as gone from HRPP and the points are in CUP.  It sounds like you are suggesting it goes to a "never, never land" floating category until 6 months?


My understanding is that we have a deeded week, and that deeded week is for us to reserve.  So it is in some "hold never never land"  It is out of HRC inventory for other to book.    We either elect to occupy our home club or not.  If we choose it not stay home and get  either CUP points  or HPP point instead-- then the unit get release to its respective pool.


----------



## seatrout

RunCat said:


> From what I have been reading, it seems that the HPP system was built and but did not provide a real incentive to join.  When I  converted Welk weeks to Welk points the incentive was access to the new resorts.  Neither Cabo, Northstar, Breckenridge, the "experience collection" et al are available to owners that do not own points; the weeks owners only get weeks at their resort  (either fixed or float).
> And when I converted Northstar and Breckenridge were not even part of the collection. The resort expansion provided increased value to the points I already owned.



True to some degree.  But I think the tide is changing.

Prior to HPP, all Hyatt owner are happy with HRC points and could access the excess developer units.  We look forward to Hyatt building new resorts so we can go to. There were absolutely no reason to join HPP.    Had they did a minimal fees like Marriott to "enroll" your week to get all the extra perk such as banking, no fees, it might have gone through faster.   The cost of entry was too hight and required to pay 13K-20k to buy some useless number of point.   Marriott did the same  by convincing me to buy additional 1000 DC points so that I could access this imaginary "Trust Pool" of new resort such as Maui.   I do see the tide is however changing as most Hyatt owner are not those in this forum.  The current available inventory is definitely different and tilt toward the HPP side at the >6 month window. 

Looking forward, I have a more positive view of this merger-  at least in the near future.  It may likely be sold off anyway.
Likely all  "sold" inventory will be in their respective pool such as
1. HWC for Welk points/week- 
2. HRC  for Hyatt HRC
3. HPP for all converted HPP and developer unsold units from both Welk & Hyatt

Club to club exchange agreement to across club such as the one currently exist between HRC and HPP. 
Since there is a large amount  of developer unsold unit "3 1/2 years built inventory"  from Welk, they will be selling it for years and the pitch would be to access this pot early

The difficult questions is how to convert the various different location/season to a common currency.  My understanding that the maintenance fees for 3BR at Northstar is around  6K +/year.  So those weeks/point value may get convert to 4400 points.  But what Aspen/Hyatt people would say to their point conversion.


----------



## Kal

seatrout said:


> My understanding is that we have a deeded week, and that deeded week is for us to reserve.  So it is in some "hold never never land"  It is out of HRC inventory for other to book.    We either elect to occupy our home club or not.  If we choose it not stay home and get  either CUP points  or HPP point instead-- then the unit get release to its respective pool.


It sounds like we are saying the same thing.  The owned unit is in HRPP for 6 months available only to the owner to book.  If for example, the HRPP owner books something else with those points at say 2 months, at that point the HRPP status is removed and the unit is made available to the Club via CUP.  It is not held in abeyance for the remaining 4 months.


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## JohnPaul

I own in a lot of timeshare systems, but not Welk or Hyatt.  I have had one exchange in each program and was very happy with them.  Hyatt Sunset Harbor about 20 years ago and Welk Village on the Green last year.

By going to a Welk presentation last year we got a 2 night stay at Welk Northstar for the sole cost of another presentation. Our stay is booked for April (obviously not a high season but what worked) in a 2 bedroom unit. An additional night was $99.

I think that it will be interesting to see the spin at the required presentation.


----------



## Kal

WHAT IF....only 2 of the Welk resorts match up to the Hyatt level of quality and the remainder are dogs.  What would be the impact to HRC if all those resorts are placed into HRC???

? High demand for the two, little demand for the others?
? High demand for original HRC resorts plus the 2 Welk by a much larger member pool?
? Low occupancy for the "other Welk resorts"?
? Financial implications of higher annual maintenance fees on former Welk owners?
WHAT IF


----------



## seatrout

Kal said:


> WHAT IF....only 2 of the Welk resorts match up to the Hyatt level of quality and the remainder are dogs.  What would be the impact to HRC if all those resorts are placed into HRC???
> 
> ? High demand for the two, little demand for the others?
> ? High demand for original HRC resorts plus the 2 Welk by a much larger member pool?
> ? Low occupancy for the "other Welk resorts"?
> ? Financial implications of higher annual maintenance fees on former Welk owners?
> WHAT IF
> [/QUOTE





Kal said:


> WHAT IF....only 2 of the Welk resorts match up to the Hyatt level of quality and the remainder are dogs.  What would be the impact to HRC if all those resorts are placed into HRC???
> 
> ? High demand for the two, little demand for the others?
> ? High demand for original HRC resorts plus the 2 Welk by a much larger member pool?
> ? Low occupancy for the "other Welk resorts"?
> ? Financial implications of higher annual maintenance fees on former Welk owners?
> WHAT IF


The different  quality between different location exist in all timeshare system currently.  The  correction would be amount of points required to book it and would differ on season. Welk currently are doing it and Marriott adopted this approach when they roll out the Destimation Club. 

as to maintenance fees, I do not see how it would changes.  Current maintenances fees for Welk is point based and is a function of underlying resort that the point own.   It may even be decreased with better purchasing power.  HPP trust point maintenance fees is the same as it is a function of the average cost per point.  I do not see significant changes other than that the “build up unsold inventory “ would be harder to book for existing Welk Owner


----------



## seatrout

I also do not see a situation that Welk inventory would deposit to HRC but a new pot call HWC as it currently
access from between HWC ,HRC, HPP would be via the club to club exchange agreement


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## Kal

seatrout said:


> ...as to maintenance fees, I do not see how it would changes.  Current maintenances fees for Welk is point based and is a function of underlying resort that the point own.   It may even be decreased with better purchasing power.  HPP trust point maintenance fees is the same as it is a function of the average cost per point.  I do not see significant changes other than that the “build up unsold inventory “ would be harder to book for existing Welk Owner


The issue is Hyatt.  When you look at the maintenance fee budget, there are numerous line items devoted to Hyatt Management (not resort specific management).  The local board of directors has no control of those line items.  My guess is that cost of that involvement will be considerably higher than the cost of Welk management.  That cost structure spans both HPP and HRC.  Get ready for a sticker shock.


----------



## skimeup

I have only owned one week at Highlands Inn for three years and haven't stayed there.  I've exchanged into other Hyatts and into Interval and I always thought that I would need to call Hyatt to release my points so that I could use them at another Hyatt.  Is it the case that I can just book online and it will automatically release my points and complete the booking?  

I have spent many hours trying to learn this system - and received much education from Kal's posts.  But I never heard this.

I'd also like to point out that availability at any of the Welks or Hyatts right now is very misleading.  Most timeshare owners, I think, are over 50 and in the more susceptible group for COVID.  So not traveling so much.  And at the ski resorts, the problem is booking tickets as they are restricting the number of people on the slopes - so hotel/timeshare availability is the least of the problems.


----------



## RunCat

Kal said:


> WHAT IF....only 2 of the Welk resorts match up to the Hyatt level of quality and the remainder are dogs.  What would be the impact to HRC if all those resorts are placed into HRC???
> 
> ? High demand for the two, little demand for the others?
> ? High demand for original HRC resorts plus the 2 Welk by a much larger member pool?
> ? Low occupancy for the "other Welk resorts"?
> ? Financial implications of higher annual maintenance fees on former Welk owners?
> WHAT IF



The fact that you are asking the question shows that you know little about the Welk resorts.  From what I have seen, none of them have little demand, this year being the exception.   And the current "availability" of resorts is somewhat misleading due to the  amount of inventory that is owned by the developer that he can put into rental and exchange pools. 
Re: maintenance fees. I really have no idea what Hyatt fees are.  However, it is no less than what I am paying currently for Vistana. 
Re: quality. Welk in general is pretty high quality; it just lack brand appeal.  But from an overall resort experience, between the activities and amenities that exist on site, Welk overall seems to be a better value.


----------



## seatrout

Kal said:


> The issue is Hyatt.  When you look at the maintenance fee budget, there are numerous line items devoted to Hyatt Management (not resort specific management).  The local board of directors has no control of those line items.  My guess is that cost of that involvement will be considerably higher than the cost of Welk management.  That cost structure spans both HPP and HRC.  Get ready for a sticker shock.


I am always upset that my underlying deeded week maintenance fees keep increasing every year in Hyatt and Marriott.  But then compared to those Marriott DC trust point and Hyatt trust HPP point they are significantly lower per points.  Then I look at the maintenance fees for Hyatt beaver creek or Aspen., I am happy I am able to trade there and not that maintenance fees. So it is all relative.  

Currently maintenance fees for Welk look high already.  Maybe Welk owners can comment of the maintenance fees required to book a 2 BR at various place.  But my guess is that it is higher than what we Are paying and is more consistent with point base system


----------



## Pathways

skimeup said:


> I have only owned one week at Highlands Inn for three years and haven't stayed there. I've exchanged into other Hyatts and into Interval and I always thought that I would need to call Hyatt to release my points so that I could use them at another Hyatt. Is it the case that I can just book online and it will automatically release my points and complete the booking?



Just go online, find what you want to reserve and start the process.  If you have no CUP points to book, or not enough, it will then point to your HRPP week(s) and you simply choose which one to release into CUP points, and it will take however many points you need and put the rest into your CUP account.  The system always uses the oldest points, keeping your account the most efficient.


----------



## Shankilicious

seatrout said:


> I am always upset that my underlying deeded week maintenance fees keep increasing every year in Hyatt and Marriott. But then compared to those Marriott DC trust point and Hyatt trust HPP point they are significantly lower per points. Then I look at the maintenance fees for Hyatt beaver creek or Aspen., I am happy I am able to trade there and not that maintenance fees. So it is all relative.
> 
> Currently maintenance fees for Welk look high already. Maybe Welk owners can comment of the maintenance fees required to book a 2 BR at various place. But my guess is that it is higher than what we Are paying and is more consistent with point base system


I listed the MF for 2019 in my post titled Welk in the other exchange systems description of Welk but I'll post it again.
420k points is what you need for ski season 2BR in Tahoe. So around $2300 now. However, that includes RCI Platinum membership, no parking fees, no cancellation fees, no booking fees no matter how many times we book, Guest certs used to be fee but now they're $50, no transfer fees even into the collection/affiliated resorts.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Kal

RunCat said:


> The fact that you are asking the question shows that you know little about the Welk resorts.  From what I have seen, none of them have little demand, this year being the exception.   And the current "availability" of resorts is somewhat misleading due to the  amount of inventory that is owned by the developer that he can put into rental and exchange pools.
> Re: maintenance fees. I really have no idea what Hyatt fees are.  However, it is no less than what I am paying currently for Vistana.
> Re: quality. Welk in general is pretty high quality; it just lack brand appeal.  But from an overall resort experience, between the activities and amenities that exist on site, Welk overall seems to be a better value.


I'm not talking demand within the organization, but rather level of quality.  Maybe a way to evaluate the two systems is to compare the resorts side-by-side.  IMHO, I would think Branson and Escondido would be a stretch.  Northstar would be a great match (still don't know why Hyatt sold interests to Welk).


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## seatrout

Shankilicious said:


> I listed the MF for 2019 in my post titled Welk in the other exchange systems description of Welk but I'll post it again.
> 420k points is what you need for ski season 2BR in Tahoe. So around $2300 now. However, that includes RCI Platinum membership, no parking fees, no cancellation fees, no booking fees no matter how many times we book, Guest certs used to be fee but now they're $50, no transfer fees even into the collection/affiliated resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Thank you. It is interesting that it is not linear.  Currently Hyatt HPP and Marriott trust point maintenance fees are simply per points.   I saw a resale posting for Northstar week 51  3BR Currently listed on RedWeek The maintenance fees of that was around $6500. Unless I read it wrong, how does Welk subsidize that maintenances fees  compared to your point cost for booking?.


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## Shankilicious

seatrout said:


> Thank you. It is interesting that it is not linear. Currently Hyatt HPP and Marriott trust point maintenance fees are simply per points. I saw a resale posting for Northstar week 51 3BR Currently listed on RedWeek The maintenance fees of that was around $6500. Unless I read it wrong, how does Welk subsidize that maintenances fees compared to your point cost for booking?.


I'm not 100% sure what you mean but the MF are set up as a $700ish base fee for all points accounts. Then $0.0033/point on top of that.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## seatrout

Shankilicious said:


> I'm not 100% sure what you mean but the MF are set up as a $700ish base fee for all points accounts. Then $0.0033/point on top of that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## seatrout

From your post, 240,000 points has around $1500 MF.  But 1M points MF is only $4100 and not $6000.

Regardless, since the maintenance of  the underlying week 51 3BR Northstar is $6500, how many points does it cost to book that week. ----  I saw your point chart for Welk and it seem that point cost for that week is 5400 for 3BR.  Since MF for that quantity of points is significantly lower than the MF of the underlying week, the owner of that week would likely try his/her best to rent in open market and would only deposit if they are not successful at last minute.


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## nuwermj

seatrout said:


> Regardless, since the maintenance of  the underlying week 51 3BR Northstar is $6500, how many points does it cost to book that week. ----  I saw your point chart for Welk and it seem that point cost for that week is 5400 for 3BR.  Since MF for that quantity of points is significantly lower than the MF of the underlying week, the owner of that week would likely try his/her best to rent in open market and would only deposit if they are not successful at last minute.



Welk has never sold deeded weeks at Northstart.  I think building A has some fractional units that are 18 day intervals. That might be what you saw in the secondary market.


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## bizaro86

seatrout said:


> Thank you. It is interesting that it is not linear.  Currently Hyatt HPP and Marriott trust point maintenance fees are simply per points.   I saw a resale posting for Northstar week 51  3BR Currently listed on RedWeek The maintenance fees of that was around $6500. Unless I read it wrong, how does Welk subsidize that maintenances fees  compared to your point cost for booking?.



I don't think Welk ever sold fixed weeks. And that redweek listing is a Hyatt fixed week (actually multiple). You get the fixed week 51 plus some other Hyatt points. The same ad is on myresortnetwork.com where you can see the details without a membership.


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## travelhacker

seatrout said:


> From your post, 240,000 points has around $1500 MF.  But 1M points MF is only $4100 and not $6000.
> 
> Regardless, since the maintenance of week 51 3BR Northstar is $6500, how many points does it cost to book that week>


It looks like owners at Northstar get 2 weeks of usage with that $6500 plus a midweek stay (1/20th share).

It looks like they get their fixed week (2950 points), a platinum week and 3300 points of floating time.

To turn it to Welk points that would be 480,000 for the christmas week + 480,000 for a summer week, and we'll say 240,000 for the half -week stay.

It looks like the maintenance fees would be $4,660 ($700 + 1,200,000 x .0033).

One thing to point out is that the cost for a 3 bedroom is a good value at the Welk Northstar (a 3 bedroom is comprised of a studio 120K and a 2 bedroom 420K) -- so you are saving 60K by getting the 3 bedroom.

Remember though that the Hyatt cost is closer to the cost that the points trust is paying in maintenance fees for the equivalent weeks (remember the Hyatt and Welk split shared costs). I would think the biggest difference would be in club dues (in this case 157 * 2.5 = $392.50 for Hyatt) vs Welk (it sounds like the Welk equivalent would be $700).

The cost to maintain Northstar gets offset by lower maintenance fee weeks within the Welk trust. If you only book Northstar, you would definitely maximize your value.


----------



## travelhacker

DayTraveler said:


> I don't know as much as you folks here on TUG I admire your knowledge base. I am a Welk owner and I feel like I got gypped. I was hoping to share our situation and please ask for feedback because I am not sure I am seeing the big picture:  my in-laws joined Welk in the 80’s. We grew up in and around Welk and inherited their 300k points three years ago because they both passed away. Then 2 years ago we spent only 2k to buy a 180k point account not realizing the distinction between the two types of ownership. The big one being the two owner base fees. The other one being the idea that those points had different status and were looked at differently. So just a year ago we paid 7K to add 60k points and blend everything to be 540 Priority Level Platinum owner. We haven’t even had the chance to experience the perks that came along with it nor have we had the chance to recoup by saving the base owner fee each year. These were the reasons we paid those fees. Does that make sense? That’s the part that is hard for me to judge.


You may want to post a separate thread. @Shankilicious @nuwermj @RunCat are knowledgeable about welk.

If you like the resort in Escondido, it sounds like you could get a couple of weeks each year there with your points. If you are a skier, the Northstar Lodge looks fantastic and would be a good value. If you wanted to splurge, the 2 bedroom penthouse in Cabo San Lucas (540K points per week) seems like it would be a great option.


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## Shankilicious

DayTraveler said:


> I don't know as much as you folks here on TUG I admire your knowledge base. I am a Welk owner and I feel like I got gypped. I was hoping to share our situation and please ask for feedback because I am not sure I am seeing the big picture: my in-laws joined Welk in the 80’s. We grew up in and around Welk and inherited their 300k points three years ago because they both passed away. Then 2 years ago we spent only 2k to buy a 180k point account not realizing the distinction between the two types of ownership. The big one being the two owner base fees. The other one being the idea that those points had different status and were looked at differently. So just a year ago we paid 7K to add 60k points and blend everything to be 540 Priority Level Platinum owner. We haven’t even had the chance to experience the perks that came along with it nor have we had the chance to recoup by saving the base owner fee each year. These were the reasons we paid those fees. Does that make sense? That’s the part that is hard for me to judge.


The good thing is that it will be a couple years before the Hyatt/Welk merger gets a program that joins the two. 
So learn the system as it is as best as you can and there's a good chance that owners of Welk and Hyatt before the merger, "legacy owners" will have the option for a long time to remain in their own systems. It may be 7-10 years before Hyatt/Marriott starts to unofficially force legacy owners to join the new points program that Hyatt/Welk will come up with in the next year or so.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## seatrout

travelhacker said:


> It looks like owners at Northstar get 2 weeks of usage with that $6500 plus a midweek stay (1/20th share).
> 
> It looks like they get their fixed week (2950 points), a platinum week and 3300 points of floating time.
> 
> To turn it to Welk points that would be 480,000 for the christmas week + 480,000 for a summer week, and we'll say 240,000 for the half -week stay.
> 
> It looks like the maintenance fees would be $4,660 ($700 + 1,200,000 x .0033).
> 
> One thing to point out is that the cost for a 3 bedroom is a good value at the Welk Northstar (a 3 bedroom is comprised of a studio 120K and a 2 bedroom 420K) -- so you are saving 60K by getting the 3 bedroom.
> 
> Remember though that the Hyatt cost is closer to the cost that the points trust is paying in maintenance fees for the equivalent weeks (remember the Hyatt and Welk split shared costs). I would think the biggest difference would be in club dues (in this case 157 * 2.5 = $392.50 for Hyatt) vs Welk (it sounds like the Welk equivalent would be $700).
> 
> The cost to maintain Northstar gets offset by lower maintenance fee weeks within the Welk trust. If you only book Northstar, you would definitely maximize your value.



That make more sense.

Looking at the Welk point chart,  240,000 point is a 2BR deposit to RIC/II which is equivalent to 1300 Hyatt Points.  Typically diamond ski week would cost 2200 point to book if it is available.   Welk 2BR ski  is 450,000 convert to 2437 Hyatt points which sound entirely reasonable for 2BR ski week in Northstar.  Typical diamond 2200 Hyatt point would be around 406,150 Welk points.

The real points values/discount in Hyatt is the 4,5,6 night stay that avoid Saturday night.   As I pointed out earlier, 2200 to book KeyWest 7 night Xmas but only 1320 for 6 night with check in Sunday


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## nuwermj

seatrout said:


> The real points values/discount in Hyatt is the 4,5,6 night stay that avoid Saturday night.   As I pointed out earlier, 2200 to book KeyWest 7 night Xmas but only 1320 for 6 night with check in Sunday



Welk's point system is similar. The point requirements for Sunday night through Thursday night is 10% of the week point value; Friday night and Saturday night is 25%.


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## bradj

Shankilicious said:


> The good thing is that it will be a couple years before the Hyatt/Welk merger gets a program that joins the two.
> So learn the system as it is as best as you can and there's a good chance that owners of Welk and Hyatt before the merger, "legacy owners" will have the option for a long time to remain in their own systems. It may be 7-10 years before Hyatt/Marriott starts to unofficially force legacy owners to join the new points program that Hyatt/Welk will come up with in the next year or so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Hyatt/Welk will have great difficulty converting/confiscating deeded weeks from Hyatt owners. Up until Covid,  last March, Hyatt offered an Exit Program which was a semi attractive buy back program for Hyatt deeded weeks. When Covid hit, the program went to deeds back to Hyatt in lieu of foreclosure only. No $ to owners. At some point Hyatt/Marriott/Welk would probably have to start buying back deeded weeks. IMO a Marriott sale of the Hyatt/Welk product would already have happened. Passing this problem on to another buyer looks like the path of least resistance for Marriott.


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## AJCts411

I do own at Sunset and really do not care about points and such as these are the weeks I want to use. Viewed the purchase of a cheap way to be able to continue vacationing in Key West considering the spiraling upward trend of rental costs. So I certainly do not have much knowledge of points.   So as an observer on the sidelines, seems to me that Marriot is not gambling on the purchase of Welk. They have a plan, just that it has not been disclosed yet.  But what is coming, IMO, is a combined points only system, and two groupings of the resorts.  One the those groupings will be a collection where the premium resorts would be grouped and then rest of the resorts would be in another group, with higher and lower point values per week.  Speculation I know. All bundled up in a nice neat (to investor minds) package to be spun off.


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## Tenga

Shankilicious said:


> The good thing is that it will be a couple years before the Hyatt/Welk merger gets a program that joins the two.
> So learn the system as it is as best as you can and there's a good chance that owners of Welk and Hyatt before the merger, "legacy owners" will have the option for a long time to remain in their own systems. It may be 7-10 years before Hyatt/Marriott starts to unofficially force legacy owners to join the new points program that Hyatt/Welk will come up with in the next year or so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Now the flip side its not a couple of years as you claim but an immediate new program.  An integration based solely on a expedited sale of HRC with Welk now branded inside it to the market.   TS industry no different then selling your own home. The fundamentals still apply.  Put on a new roof and fresh coat of paint to make it more appealing to the market/buyer.  No way Marriott is going to slow roll this out. Its going to put the lipstick on this pig and hang a 4 sale sign around its neck. At the end of the day its still a pig. But now no longer Marriott problem!  Marriott can't move fast enough in this merger.   Its not going to do the slow death roll out!  Why would it?  

Even if Marriott wanted to keep HRC and it doesn't. Why slowly drag it through the mud and diminish its value for the market even further? No my friend, there is a thing called reality in the business world and us Timeshare owners are "not" part of this equation. This is a purely business decision to unload a TS/product it never had intended to keep when it purchased back in 2017. And needs do so in a expedited manner!  So year's maybe 7-10 can't see it happing. Be prepared as soon as regulatory approves Marriott Legal department will already have drafted up the Doc's for its announced roll out and sale....

Tenga


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## Kal

It's not like flipping a home.  There are significant individual state approvals required.  California, Hawaii and Florida are difficult.


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## nuwermj

Tenga said:


> ...



"Bluegreen already licking its chops and raising $$$$....."

I would perfer Bluegreen to Wyndam or Diamond!!

"So year's maybe 7-10 can't see it happing."

I think the point of 7-10 years is that the current Welk trust fund/club will continue to function about as it is now for another 7-10 years (like HRC can function even though the parent company is no longer selling that product). Whatever new product comes to pass at whatever time table, the new management company (Hyatt or otherwise) can't eliminate the current owners' Association. If they stop selling that trust fund product, membership will decline over time, and inventory will be withdrawn, but that will be many years in the future.


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## bogey21

Tenga said:


> The fundamentals still apply.  Put on a new roof and fresh coat of paint to make it more appealing to the market/buyer.  No way Marriott is going to slow roll this out. Its going to put the lipstick on this pig and hang a 4 sale sign around its neck. At the end of the day its still a pig. But now no longer Marriott problem!  Marriott can't move fast enough in this merger.   Its not going to do the slow death roll out!  Why would it?



Don't know if it is accurate but I love your way of thinking...

George


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## Tenga

Kal said:


> It's not like flipping a home.  There are significant individual state approvals required.  California, Hawaii and Florida are difficult.


Hi Kal, I looked into this.  As set up in the articles in the trust and filed in each state were the trust are incorporated. HRC or HVGG as it states in the filings has the exclusive right to buy, sell, or terminate the trust. Since the trust currently exist it only needs to update and file, no need for approval by the states.  Now here is the million dollar question that you brought into the light. 

 Not state approval, but Hyatt's approval!
 In order for this merger to take place. Hyatt has to agree. And I direct quote from Marriott filing "The transaction is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021 and is subject to the satisfaction of customary closing conditions, Rebranding the resorts to the Hyatt Residence Club brand is subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation or its affiliate".  

If there was ever a time for Hyatt, once and for all to rid its self from the Timeshare industry and get this monkey off its back it will be this year 2021. I see it fast tracked for approval with a legal disclosure from Marriott its intent to sell.  Hyatt then has nothing to tie its hands up in the TS industry.  This will allow it to focus on its core hospitality industry its" hotel's".  It sold HRC to ILG in what 2014?  Hyatt a lot smarter then Marriott. It got out! of TS. Here is the opportunity to get out for good! 
Regards,
Tenga


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## dioxide45

Tenga said:


> Hi Kal, I looked into this.  As set up in the articles in the trust and filed in each state were the trust are incorporated. HRC or HVGG as it states in the filings has the exclusive right to buy, sell, or terminate the trust. Since the trust currently exist it only needs to update and file, no need for approval by the states.  Now here is the million dollar question that you brought into the light.
> 
> Not state approval, but Hyatt's approval!
> In order for this merger to take place. Hyatt has to agree. And I direct quote from Marriott filing "The transaction is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021 and is subject to the satisfaction of customary closing conditions, Rebranding the resorts to the Hyatt Residence Club brand is subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation or its affiliate".
> 
> If there was ever a time for Hyatt, once and for all to rid its self from the Timeshare industry and get this monkey off its back it will be this year 2021. I see it fast tracked for approval with a legal disclosure from Marriott its intent to sell.  Hyatt then has nothing to tie its hands up in the TS industry.  This will allow it to focus on its core hospitality industry its" hotel's".  It sold HRC to ILG in what 2014?  Hyatt a lot smarter then Marriott. It got out! of TS. Here is the opportunity to get out for good!
> Regards,
> Tenga


Why would Hyatt want out? They don't own the resorts or the business, they just get free cash for HRC to put it's name on the resorts and sell the product. Much the same way all the other timeshare brands are doing it today. It isn't a monkey on the back of Hyatt Hotels, they have very little risk and all the reward.


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## Kal

Over time, the big issue was how to deal with the deeded properties.  Now, Hyatt is serving as the property manager for the deeded owners.  The owners always have the option of tossing Hyatt (or subsequent manager) and hire a new one.  Granted, the Club function is a property of the manager, so that could be an interesting decision point.  Then too it might be like herding cats to get all the owners to agree on anything.


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## Pathways

Tenga said:


> Not state approval, but Hyatt's approval!
> In order for this merger to take place. Hyatt has to agree. And I direct quote from Marriott filing "The transaction is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021 and is subject to the satisfaction of customary closing conditions, Rebranding the resorts to the Hyatt Residence Club brand is subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation or its affiliate".



Based on your post, where do they need the approval from Hyatt for this purchase?  It just states they need Hyatt approval to REBRAND the resorts and place the Hyatt name on Welk


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## dannybaker

Personally we do not care for points in the Marriott system  and can never get a fair trade with points. We have been MVC members for close to 15 years and dislike points. Yes we enrolled into MVC points system and have that option. We prefer to exchange weeks for weeks in Marriott. Our three Welk weeks are always depositing into RCI and we utilize RCI points system. We do like RCI points system and exchange into Disney and Hilton all the time. Our three Welk weeks currently can be traded into RCI or II. We often trade our three weeks at Welk into ten weeks with RCI, of course we love this. As most things in life continues to change we will adapt and rely on the awesome people on TUG to utilize our weeks efficiently.


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## SueDonJ

Tenga said:


> Hi Kal, I looked into this.  As set up in the articles in the trust and filed in each state were the trust are incorporated. HRC or HVGG as it states in the filings has the exclusive right to buy, sell, or terminate the trust. Since the trust currently exist it only needs to update and file, no need for approval by the states.  Now here is the million dollar question that you brought into the light.
> 
> Not state approval, but Hyatt's approval!
> In order for this merger to take place. Hyatt has to agree. And I direct quote from Marriott filing "The transaction is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021 and is subject to the satisfaction of customary closing conditions, Rebranding the resorts to the Hyatt Residence Club brand is subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation or its affiliate".
> 
> If there was ever a time for Hyatt, once and for all to rid its self from the Timeshare industry and get this monkey off its back it will be this year 2021. I see it fast tracked for approval with a legal disclosure from Marriott its intent to sell.  Hyatt then has nothing to tie its hands up in the TS industry.  This will allow it to focus on its core hospitality industry its" hotel's".  It sold HRC to ILG in what 2014?  Hyatt a lot smarter then Marriott. It got out! of TS. Here is the opportunity to get out for good!
> Regards,
> Tenga



Marriott, Int'l (MAR) the hotel company has been out of the timeshare business since 2011 after having spun off its timeshare division; Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) is the separate timeshare company. It has since enjoyed a similar relationship to MAR as the Hyatt timeshares do to the Hyatt hotel company - ie that of a contractual arrangement allowing naming rights in exchange for cash considerations, and, access to the Bonvoy (formerly Marriott Rewards) customer loyalty program for the timeshare owners. The same happened with Starwood's timeshare division spinning off to the new company Vistana Signature Experiences in 2016, prior to it coming under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella in the same 2018 ILG acquisition wherein VAC picked up Hyatt timeshares.

Whatever the naming rights arrangement is between Hyatt the hotel company and the Hyatt timeshares, it continues to present obstacles that VAC apparently didn't face when Marriott timeshares were spun off to a new company, or, that Westin, Vistana and St. Regis timeshares didn't face when spun off from Starwood. Almost immediately on the ILG acquisition, VAC started talking in investor communications about more fully integrating formerly-Starwood timeshares within the existing VAC set-up while at the same time, warning that the Hyatt issues wouldn't be simple. With these new Welk resorts being integrated into Hyatt, and these obstacles not having been figured out yet,  I fall more towards the side that says VAC will be shopping Hyatt/Welk to others in the industry. But anything's possible, and the speculation is always interesting.


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## TravelTime

The only locations I would even consider with Welk would be Northstar in Tahoe.


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## Shankilicious

TravelTime said:


> The only locations I would even consider with Welk would be Northstar in Tahoe.


Not a fan of infinity pools to the ocean huh?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Kal

TravelTime said:


> The only locations I would even consider with Welk would be Northstar in Tahoe.


That property started out as a fractional.  My guess is the cost to get a reservation would be significant and the waiting list even longer.  Typically, the owners of those units a far ahead through rental rather than tossing it into a club pool.


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## dannybaker

seatrout said:


> I am always upset that my underlying deeded week maintenance fees keep increasing every year in Hyatt and Marriott.  But then compared to those Marriott DC trust point and Hyatt trust HPP point they are significantly lower per points.  Then I look at the maintenance fees for Hyatt beaver creek or Aspen., I am happy I am able to trade there and not that maintenance fees. So it is all relative.
> 
> Currently maintenance fees for Welk look high already.  Maybe Welk owners can comment of the maintenance fees required to book a 2 BR at various place.  But my guess is that it is higher than what we Are paying and is more consistent with point base system


We currently pay $1317 for a two bedroom look off platinum week that trades into all 52 weeks. Our Marriott two bedroom lock off units maintenance fee is $1500.


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## TravelTime

Kal said:


> That property started out as a fractional.  My guess is the cost to get a reservation would be significant and the waiting list even longer.  Typically, the owners of those units a far ahead through rental rather than tossing it into a club pool.



It is possible to get reservations through ThirdHome and EliteAlliance but you can’t pick your dates and the dates are usually last minute.


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## fleecer

TravelTime said:


> The only locations I would even consider with Welk would be Northstar in Tahoe.



LOL


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## RunCat

TravelTime said:


> The only locations I would even consider with Welk would be Northstar in Tahoe.



The nice thing about a points system, rather than fixed weeks,  is that you get to choose how you spend your points and you get to choose where and when to go.  I have no desire to go to Branson, MO and limited desire to go to FL or Carmel.  But I have multiple trips planned for Escondido, Breckenridge and Avon.  I would have liked to go to Cabo, but, for me, there is  too much uncertainty about air travel .


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## dsmrp

I'm not excited about the Welk locations either except perhaps Cabo.
We don't go on ski vacations, so Northstar is of so-so interest. But it's a plus that most of Welk locations are in the West, as I am too.

If Hyatt trading availability will be diluted with the merger, or later sold off,  the only consolation to me is that we bought where we want to go, Pinon Pt. And in a good unit and week period.


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## ivywag

Shankilicious said:


> I'm surprised none of the commenting Hyatt owners are interested in Cabo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


There are lots of high-quality resorts available in Cabo through II. Welk is good , but IMHO there are many resorts in Cabo of equal or better quality. We go every year including one year to Welk and always are able to book a great resort through II. Thus Welk is not a needed addition. Really, the only Welk property that interests us is Northstar and we already have limited availability there through Hyatt We don’t see the Welk acquisition as a benefit. Adding Hyatt access to Welk weeks owners only dilutes the availability of internal trades if we’re not interested in any of the Welk properties. My husband and I both feel that the Hyatt system has been very special.  We have gotten to know most of the managers during our 21 years of ownership and are treated as family at all of the resorts that we visit frequently. They all go out of their way to try to fulfill our requests.  We haven’t seen that when visiting other corporate timeshares.  We are at WKORVN now and find that, although nice, the feeling is much different than within the Hyatt system.  It’s more of a big, corporate, impersonal atmosphere.  I’m sure that there are many Welk owners who feel the way about their system that we do about Hyatt.  We all buy what meets our likes and needs. This merger only benefits Marriott corporate and their bottom line.


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## CPNY

Well I’m sure it will take a few years for any combination program to come to fruition. We still don’t have a VSN/MVC program. MVW sees 55,000 potential new buyers with the Welk acquisition. When they exhaust their sales efforts they will prob sell off both Welk and Hyatt.

I wouldn’t worry if I were a hyatt owner, chances are MVW is too busy trying to figure out the Marriott vistana side of this business. However, after reading everyone concerns, it sounds like we are re living the Marriott acquisition of ILG all over again.


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## boraxo

Big Plus for Hyatt owners out west. Happy to have some new trade options in the portfolio.


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## jjking42

At Northstar this weekend booked via Hyatt points 
attended update this morning 
they are selling welk points 420k points for $56,000 MF is 2300 
making a big deal about vip program and registry collection 
they did know anything about how HRC or HPP work 
they say they are excited to have the Hyatt name because most millennials don’t know the Welk name 
lots of other stuff said some of it probably not true about the sale to Hyatt etc  and Welk financial success. 
I told them I bought my Hyatt points resale and they said Welk would never let thier points sell cheap because of ROFR .Laugh out loud . I got my gifts and was out in 90 minutes very low pressure.


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## Shankilicious

Two things about this:
1- that is quite cheap for that many points. I paid near $40k for half that in 2015/17 and they've recently been selling 120k every other year points for $19k. So read into that what you will but that makes me think change has already been planned or mentioned to the sales people that does not bode well for Welk. Or the sales team is worried they'll lose their job soon and are selling as much as they can as quickly as they can.
2. It's very common for sales people to be taught that their product is worth a lot and that the company will exercise ROFR at a "good" or "reasonable" price even though it's educated TS owners know the truth.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## RunCat

Shankilicious said:


> Two things about this:
> 1- that is quite cheap for that many points. I paid near $40k for half that in 2015/17 and they've recently been selling 120k every other year points for $19k.



Agreed.  That quantity of points, in early 2020, was about twice that price.  So, two things 1) Covid pricing and 2) Hyatt uncertainty pricing. Due to these two things, I would suspect discount pricing until things are finalized.  It may be a good time to get inexpensive developer prices. Or to get cheaper resale prices.
Re: bad for Welk: IMO, still too early to say; but the program will definitely not be the same. And, I will make sure that I continue to plan and use my points as I intended.  At this point, there is lots of conjecture with little information. Regardless of what happens, at the end of the day, some people will be unhappy.  But, as the salesperson stated, the rebranding is likely good for the Welk product and, based on what I am reading here, perceived to be bad for the current Hyatt product.


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## dioxide45

_[Thank you! Edited for thread clean-up. The questions from @DayTraveler and replies have been moved to this thread: Welk Sale.] <-- SueDonJ_


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## Tenga

dioxide45 said:


> Why would Hyatt want out? They don't own the resorts or the business, they just get free cash for HRC to put it's name on the resorts and sell the product. Much the same way all the other timeshare brands are doing it today. It isn't a monkey on the back of Hyatt Hotels, they have very little risk and all the reward.


Why would Hyatt care to stay in? This merger nothing but a big headache for Hyatt inc. Other then the franchasise fee? Big deal!!! Nothing but a liability for Hyatt inc. 

You think the Hyatt Aspen owners lawsuit, this will dwarf the future club owners legal suits being brought in the courts both side of the isle if this merger goes through. Hyatt legal dept is well aware of this. 

Finally this year" 2021" Hyatt can rid its self for ever, move on!   This is a one and life time event to wash its hand and walk away. It may never see this opportunity again.  Hyatt has a corporate image to maintain. How does this merger effect its image/brand? This, in its self is a huge gamble for HYATT. Very risky for HYATT to entrust MVC in the roll out. Its not Marriott name being put in the spot light but Hyatt name and brand.  I would love to be the fly on the wall at Hyatt board of directors meeting when it makes its decision. Stay in or Get out? What are the odd's? Smart bet is a vote out.  Either way end of June we'll know.


Regards,
Tenga


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## Sugarcubesea

I have a question for all of the Hyatt experts. I have a diamond - 2,200 point week at Hyatt Beach House. Lately, I have done internal Hyatt exchange from Beach House to Coconut Plantation and I love this feature and hope it does not go away.

 I want to always keep my week that I purchased and not convert to whatever new program Hyatt will come up with for this Welk merger.  Does anyone think that Hyatt will force us to go to portfolio points?


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## Kal

Sugarcubesea said:


> ...I want to always keep my week that I purchased and not convert to whatever new program Hyatt will come up with for this Welk merger.  Does anyone think that Hyatt will force us to go to portfolio points?


IMHO, there is little if any chance that Hyatt will force HRC owners to join the HPP.  Remember, the entrance fee is $13,000.  If any HRC members were interested, they would have already paid the ransom.  Even then, for those HRC members who did join, they still preserved their owned week as that transfer decision is made annually.  Otherwise HRC owners like you do not want to give up the HRC program.  If the entrance price was severely slashed to maybe $1,000, that would definitely encourage the signup.  That would occur immediately after we see pigs flying overhead.

If anything, HRC owners will see a one-way demand increase due to Welk.  For me, I have no interest in any of the Welk "weeks" resorts.  Northstar would be interesting, but it will be priced out of the market and by far not available.


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## Tenga

THE MATH NEVER LIES
For all my comrades in HRC/Welk licking you chops thinking this is going to be the best thing since sliced bread! Keep in mind that HRC was formed in 1994 selling weeks. Every single property it built was selling Weeks. HRC then in 2017 started selling "Points" now known as HPP. Think about this and try to wrap your mind around it. 

From 1994 to 2017 that's 23 years this company has been selling weeks exclusively.  Its only had 5 years as of todays date to try to come up with enough inventory to make this house of cards game work. Your all smart people you do the math. 23 years of selling weeks. Then rolling out a new program from deeded weeks to points. Well it first needed to set up and form a trust and get these trust's regulated in the state its set up to operate in. Next it had the tromououls task of acquiring and depositing the weeks into the trust to make it legal to sell.  This disaster roll out were Hyatt assumed its deeded weeks owner would embrace and jump at the chance of a lifetime to spend another $13 thousand to play Hyatt game. Deeded weeks owners balked! "There always a few willing to part with there money suckers that fell for this pipe dream" new points system but not many, most see and saw the bigger picture  "WHY" bother what I have works for me no need to spend $$$ for something I neither want or need!

See the problem for integration for you Welk owners? Your all points that will be squeezed out of inventory that just not available in the HRC system designed for weeks.

MVC can't fake the math in this merger on the Hyatt inventory side, Its just not there for your 55,000+ points members.

Club Rules:

7.1 Exchange and Reservation Rules. Subject to Section 7.3 below, the following provisions shall govern the rights of HRC Owners to exchange reservation rights in the HRC Club for reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club and the rights of HPC Trust Members to exchange reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club for reservation rights in the HRC Club:


HRC Owners are advised that during the HPC Trust Priority Period, HRC Owners and HPC Trust Members have only limited rights to reserve the Vacation Periods in the HPC Trust
Club.

b. Exchange of HPC Trust Reservation Rights for HRC Inventory. The HRC Club and the HPC Trust are separate reservation systems. HVGG presently operates the reservation systems for both the HRC Club and the HPC Trust. 

Regards,
Tenga


----------



## dmelcher13

Kal said:


> IMHO, there is little if any chance that Hyatt will force HRC owners to join the HPP. Remember, the entrance fee is $13,000. If any HRC members were interested, they would have already paid the ransom. Even then, for those HRC members who did join, they still preserved their owned week as that transfer decision is made annually. Otherwise HRC owners like you do not want to give up the HRC program. If the entrance price was severely slashed to maybe $1,000, that would definitely encourage the signup. That would occur immediately after we see pigs flying overhead.
> 
> If anything, HRC owners will see a one-way demand increase due to Welk. For me, I have no interest in any of the Welk "weeks" resorts. Northstar would be interesting, but it will be priced out of the market and by far not available.



I have heard of some owners "trading in" their owned week(s) and moving entirely to HPP. I assume in these cases their deeds were sold to the HPP trust. They'd then use the trade-in value plus cash for the purchase of their HPP points. 


Dave


----------



## bdh

Sugarcubesea said:


> I have a question for all of the Hyatt experts. I have a diamond - 2,200 point week at Hyatt Beach House. Lately, I have done internal Hyatt exchange from Beach House to Coconut Plantation and I love this feature and hope it does not go away.
> 
> I want to always keep my week that I purchased and not convert to whatever new program Hyatt will come up with for this Welk merger.  Does anyone think that Hyatt will force us to go to portfolio points?



I'm thinking that it's pretty close to impossible for Hyatt to make you convert your deeded BH week to HPP points.  The use of your deeded BH week is guaranteed in HRRP - however internal exchanges to other Hyatt properties is not guaranteed.  But Hyatt might be able to entice you to convert your deeded BH week to HPP points if that was the only way you could exchange into CP or other properties.  If you're happy/content to use your deeded BH week, you're in a very good position.


----------



## nuwermj

Kal said:


> If the entrance price was severely slashed to maybe $1,000, that would definitely encourage the signup.



Since HRC owners have the ability to exchange into other HRC resorts, what benefits are HPP offering? What would a HRC owner get for the $1,000?


----------



## jjking42

Regardless of what happens the smart owners (Tug Members) will reshuffle their time share portfolio if needed to get the best use of their ownership. That is why most of us own multiple weeks in some cases in multiple systems. I used to own Marriott and HGVC but they don't fit my needs right now. I used to own a bunch of independent resorts with low MF and strong RCI trading power but full weeks don't fit my lifestyle anymore. I used to always need two bedroom units during prime seasons ( school breaks etc) but now I am happy in a one bedroom and can travel anytime of year. Right now the best bang for me is deeded week based points so I can do short stays etc, but if they screw up the internal points trading I will still be happy using the underlying deeded weeks. Except may be SVV that one I would sell if i could not use it as Star options. I would be fine going to Hyatt Pinion Point every year if it came to that and if I got tired of it I could easly sell it since I bought it resale.


----------



## bdh

Tenga said:


> THE MATH NEVER LIES
> 
> See the problem for integration for you Welk owners? Your all points that will be squeezed out of inventory that just not available in the HRC system designed for weeks.
> 
> MVC can't fake the math in this merger on the Hyatt inventory side, Its just not there for your 55,000+ points members.



I'm not following the math you're teaching.  Once Welk Trust weeks are placed into the Hyatt Trust, there will be one big PILE of Trust points - and since Hyatt can't sell more points than are in the Trust, there will be availability.  It just might not be at the desired location that everyone wants.  

IE: Lots of people like to go to Key West where there's 3 Hyatt properties.  However, the majority of people prefer Sunset Harbor over Beach House and Windward Pointe - but with only 40 units at SH and 170 units at BH and WP, not everyone is going to get into SH.  What compounds the issue is that SH is 95% deeded week owners - so until a SH deeded week owner relinquishes their HRPP week, all the HPP points owners are chasing 5% of the SH units.   The good news for HPP points owners, there's a fair amount of Hyatt Trust inventory at BH and boat loads of Trust inventory at WP.  

Note: I know there are some BH and WP owners that prefer BH and WP over SH - however the majority of Hyatt owners prefer SH.


----------



## dioxide45

Tenga said:


> THE MATH NEVER LIES
> For all my comrades in HRC/Welk licking you chops thinking this is going to be the best thing since sliced bread! Keep in mind that HRC was formed in 1994 selling weeks. Every single property it built was selling Weeks. HRC then in 2017 started selling "Points" now known as HPP. Think about this and try to wrap your mind around it.
> 
> From 1994 to 2017 that's 23 years this company has been selling weeks exclusively.  Its only had 5 years as of todays date to try to come up with enough inventory to make this house of cards game work. Your all smart people you do the math. 23 years of selling weeks. Then rolling out a new program from deeded weeks to points. Well it first needed to set up and form a trust and get these trust's regulated in the state its set up to operate in. Next it had the tromououls task of acquiring and depositing the weeks into the trust to make it legal to sell.  This disaster roll out were Hyatt assumed its deeded weeks owner would embrace and jump at the chance of a lifetime to spend another $13 thousand to play Hyatt game. Deeded weeks owners balked! "There always a few willing to part with there money suckers that fell for this pipe dream" new points system but not many, most see and saw the bigger picture  "WHY" bother what I have works for me no need to spend $$$ for something I neither want or need!
> 
> See the problem for integration for you Welk owners? Your all points that will be squeezed out of inventory that just not available in the HRC system designed for weeks.
> 
> MVC can't fake the math in this merger on the Hyatt inventory side, Its just not there for your 55,000+ points members.
> 
> Club Rules:
> 
> 7.1 Exchange and Reservation Rules. Subject to Section 7.3 below, the following provisions shall govern the rights of HRC Owners to exchange reservation rights in the HRC Club for reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club and the rights of HPC Trust Members to exchange reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club for reservation rights in the HRC Club:
> 
> 
> HRC Owners are advised that during the HPC Trust Priority Period, HRC Owners and HPC Trust Members have only limited rights to reserve the Vacation Periods in the HPC Trust
> Club.
> 
> b. Exchange of HPC Trust Reservation Rights for HRC Inventory. The HRC Club and the HPC Trust are separate reservation systems. HVGG presently operates the reservation systems for both the HRC Club and the HPC Trust.
> 
> Regards,
> Tenga


That could very well be possible. If it does go down that way, I am sure Marriott Vacations Worldwide would be okay with the move as it would give them a lot more freedom to do with those Welk and Hyatt properties as they wish. They could rebrande them as Marriott, Sheraton or Westin Vacation Clubs and work them into their integrated program that they say they have been working on to merge Vistana with Marriott Vacation Club.


----------



## nuwermj

dioxide45 said:


> That could very well be possible. If it does go down that way, I am sure Marriott Vacations Worldwide would be okay with the move as it would give them a lot more freedom to do with those Welk and Hyatt properties as they wish. They could rebrande them as Marriott, Sheraton or Westin Vacation Clubs and work them into their integrated program that they say they have been working on to merge Vistana with Marriott Vacation Club.



Do you have any idea why Marriott Vacations doesn't take the initiative now and cancel their contract with Hyatt Hotels? That, then, would allow MVC to do with Welk and Hyatt as they wish.


----------



## nuwermj

Tenga said:


> THE MATH NEVER LIES



Perhaps this is why the Marriott execs in their investor presentation de-emphasized incremental sales and emphasized new customers. Those execs were very clear: they want to sell Welk to the Hyatt hotel costumers.


----------



## bdh

nuwermj said:


> Since HRC owners have the ability to exchange into other HRC resorts, what benefits are HPP offering? What would a HRC owner get for the $1,000?



Hyatt touts the flexibility of the HPP system and "promotes" better access to Hyatt properties - the HRC owners that have bought into HPP have done so for those reasons.  HPP is more flexible than HRC, however based on HRC/HPP owner comments to date, HPP has not provided better access to hard to get Hyatt properties.  

So there isn't much of a reason for an HRC owner to buy HPP - so with the buy in to HPP being $13K, sales have not been as robust as Hyatt/Marriott would like.  Once Hyatt/Marriott has properties that are HPP exclusive, there would be more motivation for HRC owners to buy HPP.


----------



## dioxide45

Realize, HPP was dreamt up under ILG. Had Marriott had their hand in it from the beginning, perhaps the rollout would have been like the Marriott DC program was, with an enrollment option. THe problem was that Hyatt already had a points program, there is really no reason for anyone to even enroll, unless enrollment allows for banking and borrowing. Not sure if HRC allows that right now. They could easily allow it if they wanted to, but the system is pretty small and there isn't a lot of slack in the system that is a requirement for banking and borrowing.


----------



## seatrout

There is good synergy between many of the Hyatt Timeshare and Hyatt hotel.  At least in San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch get to use the wave pool at Hyatt Hill country.  We also go over the hotel side and eat and spend money.  Hyatt would likely hate to have a Marriott sign on the Timeshare unit next to the hotel side.  So I do not see real need for Hyatt to get out, if it get free advertizing and potential business.



dioxide45 said:


> Realize, HPP was dreamt up under ILG. Had Marriott had their hand in it from the beginning, perhaps the rollout would have been like the Marriott DC program was, with an enrollment option. THe problem was that Hyatt already had a points program, there is really no reason for anyone to even enroll, unless enrollment allows for banking and borrowing. Not sure if HRC allows that right now. They could easily allow it if they wanted to, but the system is pretty small and there isn't a lot of slack in the system that is a requirement for banking and borrowing.


When Marriott rollout the DC program, they gave Marriott TS owners two options.  Enroll to convert the weeks to point program.  Scare tactic to buy additional Trust point so that you can have access to the Trust pool of "new resorts"   and get higher level for flexibility of banking/borrowing.

Since Hyatt already have point system, the game was to buy into the HPP trust pool.  Problem was the trust pool did not have any real inventory of "new resorts"


----------



## bradj

Tenga said:


> THE MATH NEVER LIES
> For all my comrades in HRC/Welk licking you chops thinking this is going to be the best thing since sliced bread! Keep in mind that HRC was formed in 1994 selling weeks. Every single property it built was selling Weeks. HRC then in 2017 started selling "Points" now known as HPP. Think about this and try to wrap your mind around it.
> 
> From 1994 to 2017 that's 23 years this company has been selling weeks exclusively.  Its only had 5 years as of todays date to try to come up with enough inventory to make this house of cards game work. Your all smart people you do the math. 23 years of selling weeks. Then rolling out a new program from deeded weeks to points. Well it first needed to set up and form a trust and get these trust's regulated in the state its set up to operate in. Next it had the tromououls task of acquiring and depositing the weeks into the trust to make it legal to sell.  This disaster roll out were Hyatt assumed its deeded weeks owner would embrace and jump at the chance of a lifetime to spend another $13 thousand to play Hyatt game. Deeded weeks owners balked! "There always a few willing to part with there money suckers that fell for this pipe dream" new points system but not many, most see and saw the bigger picture  "WHY" bother what I have works for me no need to spend $$$ for something I neither want or need!
> 
> See the problem for integration for you Welk owners? Your all points that will be squeezed out of inventory that just not available in the HRC system designed for weeks.
> 
> MVC can't fake the math in this merger on the Hyatt inventory side, Its just not there for your 55,000+ points members.
> 
> Club Rules:
> 
> 7.1 Exchange and Reservation Rules. Subject to Section 7.3 below, the following provisions shall govern the rights of HRC Owners to exchange reservation rights in the HRC Club for reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club and the rights of HPC Trust Members to exchange reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club for reservation rights in the HRC Club:
> 
> 
> HRC Owners are advised that during the HPC Trust Priority Period, HRC Owners and HPC Trust Members have only limited rights to reserve the Vacation Periods in the HPC Trust
> Club.
> 
> b. Exchange of HPC Trust Reservation Rights for HRC Inventory. The HRC Club and the HPC Trust are separate reservation systems. HVGG presently operates the reservation systems for both the HRC Club and the HPC Trust.
> 
> Regards,
> Tenga


On Hyatt's website, the HRC Rules and Regulations that I could find ended with page #29 with 6.9. Can you tell me where I can access a #7 section? Also the Legal Terms and Conditions page appears to now be a one page disclaimer page with no way to open the actual document. Both docs used to be readily available online. Need some help here.


----------



## Kal

nuwermj said:


> Since HRC owners have the ability to exchange into other HRC resorts, what benefits are HPP offering? What would a HRC owner get for the $1,000?


Hmmm, that's a great question.  Aside from getting a ticket to the HPP Clown Show, there may be some advantage in stretching out the points calendar and booking shorter stays.  The down side is an HRC owner would have to give up their unit.  Give up multiple units to get into a useable HPP Tier.  The worst element is having reduced booking opportunities due to the crummy HPP Trust inventory.  Also, that $1,000 is gone forever as there is no HPP resale.


----------



## RunCat

bdh said:


> Hyatt touts the flexibility of the HPP system and "promotes" better access to Hyatt properties - the HRC owners that have bought into HPP have done so for those reasons.  HPP is more flexible than HRC, however based on HRC/HPP owner comments to date, HPP has not provided better access to hard to get Hyatt properties.
> 
> So there isn't much of a reason for an HRC owner to buy HPP - so with the buy in to HPP being $13K, sales have not been as robust as Hyatt/Marriott would like.  Once Hyatt/Marriott has properties that are HPP exclusive, there would be more motivation for HRC owners to buy HPP.



Exactly.  A little history on Welk.  Both the one beds in Palm Desert and the original Welk Villas were sold as fixed weeks.  When Villas on the Greens were built those were primarily float weeks, with some flexibility. But the only allowed exchanges were through RCI/II; there were no internal exchanges to other Welk property.  (I think Branson sold as float as well).  It was not until the discussion about new development in Escondido (Mountain Villas) and Cabo that points were pushed. For the  fixed/float week owner, the only way that they could gain access was to purchase or convert to points.   Considering the lack of new inventory within the Hyatt system, there is no good reason to convert to only points since every owner had that access already.  By bringing Welk aboard and by creating a program where those resorts can only be accessed via a new points program, that might create an incentive to convert to points alone.   It was the creation of new and "exclusive" inventory that forced people to move to points.


----------



## bradj

Tenga said:


> Why would Hyatt care to stay in? This merger nothing but a big headache for Hyatt inc. Other then the franchasise fee? Big deal!!! Nothing but a liability for Hyatt inc.
> 
> You think the Hyatt Aspen owners lawsuit, this will dwarf the future club owners legal suits being brought in the courts both side of the isle if this merger goes through. Hyatt legal dept is well aware of this.
> 
> Finally this year" 2021" Hyatt can rid its self for ever, move on!   This is a one and life time event to wash its hand and walk away. It may never see this opportunity again.  Hyatt has a corporate image to maintain. How does this merger effect its image/brand? This, in its self is a huge gamble for HYATT. Very risky for HYATT to entrust MVC in the roll out. Its not Marriott name being put in the spot light but Hyatt name and brand.  I would love to be the fly on the wall at Hyatt board of directors meeting when it makes its decision. Stay in or Get out? What are the odd's? Smart bet is a vote out.  Either way end of June we'll know.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tenga


Bottom line: Hyatt sold way to many deeded weeks over the years to ever fit in Marriott's pot. In 1994 Hyatt was  not thinking about any "Marriott." They were solely interested in what would make their product sell. And those deeded weeks sold well. If you think HRC deed holders are easily going to give up their weeks, you're going to have to " pry them from their dead cold fingers."


----------



## Kal

dmelcher13 said:


> I have heard of some owners "trading in" their owned week(s) and moving entirely to HPP. I assume in these cases their deeds were sold to the HPP trust. They'd then use the trade-in value plus cash for the purchase of their HPP points.


If so the HRC owner would be tendering an asset which has resale value for a handful of points that have no resale value.  Of course that would be one way to save real $$$ from their wallet.


----------



## dioxide45

seatrout said:


> There is good synergy between many of the Hyatt Timeshare and Hyatt hotel. At least in San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch get to use the wave pool at Hyatt Hill country. We also go over the hotel side and eat and spend money. Hyatt would likely hate to have a Marriott sign on the Timeshare unit next to the hotel side. So I do not see real need for Hyatt to get out, if it get free advertizing and potential business.


That is a good point about co-located properties and why it doesn't seem like it would be so easy for Hyatt Hotels to "wash its hand and walk away" as @Tenga seems to like to imply.


----------



## Kal

bradj said:


> Bottom line: Hyatt sold way to many deeded weeks over the years to ever fit in Marriott's pot. In 1994 Hyatt was  not thinking about any "Marriott." They were solely interested in what would make their product sell. And those deeded weeks sold well. If you think HRC deed holders are easily going to give up their weeks, you're going to have to " pry them from their dead cold fingers."


BOY, YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!  Except, what did P.T. Barnum say:  "There's a sucker born every minute."


----------



## Shankilicious

RunCat said:


> Exactly. A little history on Welk. Both the one beds in Palm Desert and the original Welk Villas were sold as fixed weeks. When Villas on the Greens were built those were primarily float weeks, with some flexibility. But the only allowed exchanges were through RCI/II; there were no internal exchanges to other Welk property. (I think Branson sold as float as well). It was not until the discussion about new development in Escondido (Mountain Villas) and Cabo that points were pushed. For the fixed/float week owner, the only way that they could gain access was to purchase or convert to points. Considering the lack of new inventory within the Hyatt system, there is no good reason to convert to only points since every owner had that access already. By bringing Welk aboard and by creating a program where those resorts can only be accessed via a new points program, that might create an incentive to convert to points alone. It was the creation of new and "exclusive" inventory that forced people to move to points.


Branson, Cabo, Tahoe, and now Breck were always points.
But yes, I think they will have to come up with a whole new system to combine the two and they won't "force" any legacy owners to make a change for a long time. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## jjking42

bradj said:


> Bottom line: Hyatt sold way to many deeded weeks over the years to ever fit in Marriott's pot. In 1994 Hyatt was  not thinking about any "Marriott." They were solely interested in what would make their product sell. And those deeded weeks sold well. If you think HRC deed holders are easily going to give up their weeks, you're going to have to " pry them from their dead cold fingers."



I remember when Marriott was only in weeks and the only exchange options was via II. Marriott has been down this road before and they know how to roll out a points program and enroll owners. You need to offer the weeks owners value. In Marriott's case that was less than full week stays, low enrollment costs, access to new resorts, and options to visit other Marriott properties without paying II exchange fees. HRC members already have all those benifts except for the new resorts. I can t see a lot of HRC members enrolling to gain access to Welk. I could see a lot of HRC owners enrolling to gain access to Marriot or Vistana if the points value conversions were fair. But not many are going to give up thier deed to completly convert to HPP or another points only trust program. 

I would have enrolled my deeded Marriott week back in the day week except for the Marriott skim. I don't remember the real numbers but as an example Marriott would give me 90 points for my week but would charge a points owner 100 points to book the week they just got from me for 90 points. I was a Wyndham and HGVC points owner at the time and neither of those system had a skim. HGVC and Wyndham was a one to one points system. The amount of points you got for giving up your week was equal to the points that somebody needed to pay to book your week. I viewed the Marriott skim as morally bankrupt and dishonest. If they wanted to make more money on points transactions I would have been ok with higher cash fees but not the skim. I also think they made it overly complicated with all the different point values they assigned the deeded weeks in their system.  Their were some clear winners and losers in the points valuation.

In the end Marriott bought back my week for my resale cost and they probably dumped the inventory in the points program along wth evrything they were getting via ROFR.


----------



## SueDonJ

bradj said:


> Bottom line: *Hyatt sold way to many deeded weeks over the years to ever fit in Marriott's pot.* In 1994 Hyatt was  not thinking about any "Marriott." They were solely interested in what would make their product sell. And those deeded weeks sold well. *If you think HRC deed holders are easily going to give up their weeks, you're going to have to " pry them from their dead cold fingers.*"



Granted, it's already been acknowledged that Marriott Vacations Worldwide has, since the ILG acquisition that brought Hyatt timeshares under the MVW umbrella, been apparently stymied by unique issues between Hyatt the hotel company and Hyatt timeshares. But it might be helpful to have an understanding of what MVC Weeks owners went through when MVW brought its Points system online. I know, this does nothing to help you figure out what's going to happen with Hyatt/Welk, but I'm putting it here to clear up any misconceptions about MVW's systems.

During all the years of speculation when we knew that there would eventually be a Points system but had no idea of its construct, thousands of existing Marriott Weeks owners said exactly the same things that I bolded above - ie that they'd sold far too many Weeks to ever try to integrate Weeks and Points, that Weeks owners would never give up their Weeks for Points, that Weeks owners wouldn't pay for anything more, etc. As it turned out what they came up with and introduced in 2010 was/is advantageous to many who owned Weeks prior to the DC Points inception, certainly to more than were expected. Basically (and separate from the option of purchasing Marriott Points,) eligible Weeks owners are allowed to enroll their Weeks in the Destination Club Points system for an enrollment fee and a minimal annual Club Dues fee, which allows those owners to use their Weeks in all the same ways they've always been able to use them, PLUS the option of annually electing to exchange their enrolled Week(s) for a stipulated allotment of DC Exchange Points that can be used in the DC Exchange Company and various other options. Enrollment IS NOT a permanent exchange of previously-sold Weeks for the new points product. There are, of course, machinations that require some understanding (which can be found in this TUG thread if you want to dive deep: FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program) but honestly, the enrollment option is working for longtime Weeks owners AND Marriott.

The other thing I'll say is, keep an open mind.


----------



## seatrout

SueDonJ said:


> Granted, it's already been acknowledged that Marriott Vacations Worldwide has, since the ILG acquisition that brought Hyatt timeshares under the MVW umbrella, been apparently stymied by unique issues between Hyatt the hotel company and Hyatt timeshares. But it might be helpful to have an understanding of what MVC Weeks owners went through when MVW brought its Points system online. I know, this does nothing to help you figure out what's going to happen with Hyatt/Welk, but I'm putting it here to clear up any misconceptions about MVW's systems.
> 
> During all the years of speculation when we knew that there would eventually be a Points system but had no idea of its construct, thousands of existing Marriott Weeks owners said exactly the same things that I bolded above - ie that they'd sold far too many Weeks to ever try to integrate Weeks and Points, that Weeks owners would never give up their Weeks for Points, that Weeks owners wouldn't pay for anything more, etc. As it turned out what they came up with and introduced in 2010 was/is advantageous to many who owned Weeks prior to the DC Points inception, certainly to more than were expected. Basically (and separate from the option of purchasing Marriott Points,) eligible Weeks owners are allowed to enroll their Weeks in the Destination Club Points system for an enrollment fee and a minimal annual Club Dues fee, which allows those owners to use their Weeks in all the same ways they've always been able to use them, PLUS the option of annually electing to exchange their enrolled Week(s) for a stipulated allotment of DC Exchange Points that can be used in the DC Exchange Company and various other options. Enrollment IS NOT a permanent exchange of previously-sold Weeks for the new points product. There are, of course, machinations that require some understanding (which can be found in this TUG thread if you want to dive deep: FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program) but honestly, the enrollment option is working for longtime Weeks owners AND Marriott.
> 
> The other thing I'll say is, keep an open mind.


As a long time Marriott Owner, I have enjoyed my Marriott much more with the roll out of the DC.  It is much more flexible and easier to do the internal exchange than prior weeks system exchange to II.    That being said, I ended up buying more developer points to gain access to the "trust pool" of developer inventory.

On the Hyatt side,  wether member here agree it or not, there is value in getting HPP trust points.   Is it worth what I paid for?? only time will tell.  There seems to be greater "trust pool" compared to "legacy HRC"  inventory in typically difficult internal trade such as the ski resorts and Carmel on a simple search.  Maybe Hyatt has been buying these up through COVID foreclosure/ROFR.  The typical Key West inventory except Sunset are plentiful in both inventory pool.  But the more difficult inventory is more plentiful in the HPP Trust pool.  I initially brought  my Hyatt  weeks purely for points-- and have never stayed at my deeded week, I welcome the addition of any new resorts to Hyatt.  It would only increase the inventory to choose from.  So this merger and having larger trust pool to pick from is a positive.

Loosing the Hyatt name would devalue Hyatt timeshare that have synergy with neighboring Hyatt hotels.   This merger would also bring Welk/Hyatt/Marriott/Westin into a common pool in internal trading via II deposits.


----------



## heathpack

SueDonJ said:


> Granted, it's already been acknowledged that Marriott Vacations Worldwide has, since the ILG acquisition that brought Hyatt timeshares under the MVW umbrella, been apparently stymied by unique issues between Hyatt the hotel company and Hyatt timeshares. But it might be helpful to have an understanding of what MVC Weeks owners went through when MVW brought its Points system online. I know, this does nothing to help you figure out what's going to happen with Hyatt/Welk, but I'm putting it here to clear up any misconceptions about MVW's systems.
> 
> During all the years of speculation when we knew that there would eventually be a Points system but had no idea of its construct, thousands of existing Marriott Weeks owners said exactly the same things that I bolded above - ie that they'd sold far too many Weeks to ever try to integrate Weeks and Points, that Weeks owners would never give up their Weeks for Points, that Weeks owners wouldn't pay for anything more, etc. As it turned out what they came up with and introduced in 2010 was/is advantageous to many who owned Weeks prior to the DC Points inception, certainly to more than were expected. Basically (and separate from the option of purchasing Marriott Points,) eligible Weeks owners are allowed to enroll their Weeks in the Destination Club Points system for an enrollment fee and a minimal annual Club Dues fee, which allows those owners to use their Weeks in all the same ways they've always been able to use them, PLUS the option of annually electing to exchange their enrolled Week(s) for a stipulated allotment of DC Exchange Points that can be used in the DC Exchange Company and various other options. Enrollment IS NOT a permanent exchange of previously-sold Weeks for the new points product. There are, of course, machinations that require some understanding (which can be found in this TUG thread if you want to dive deep: FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program) but honestly, the enrollment option is working for longtime Weeks owners AND Marriott.
> 
> The other thing I'll say is, keep an open mind.



I think a number of HRC owners posting in this thread have made the point that if HPP had been rolled out like MVC DP, we would have paid a reasonable enrollment fee, joined HPP and they all parties involved would have the best of both worlds.  HPP would have a big pool of HRC folks to sell additional points to, all Hyatt owners (HRC and HPP) would have a common pool of points inventory to access.  

MVC used a combo carrot and stick approach when rolling out DP- scare existing owners into buying points because of the fear of losing out on future reservations AND offer them a kinda sweet deal to join the new DC program.  HPP on the other hand went for the all stick approach- trying to sell HRC owners HPP not by offering value, but by trying to scare us into believing future reservations will be hard to secure.

I own Marriott and DC points and my take is: expensive system but there's value to be had.  It makes sense.
I own Hyatt weeks but no HPP and my take is: HPP expensive system that there's zero chance I'll buy into at the price they want.  I'd either use my week, rent it or sell my ownership before I'd buy at the terms I've been offered.

My mind was open when HPP rolled out.  And its open now- if HPP decides to offer me value to be a part of their system, I could join.  But just continually trying to part me from significant amounts of $ under threat of making my existing ownership "worthless"- nope, not gonna play along with that.


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## jjking42

Interesting note about the gifts for taking the Welk presentation yesterday. Typically we never do an owner update or timeshare presentation, but I wanted to see what they had to say about Hyatt Welk deal and I had time to burn since I did not have lift tickets for Sunday. We were offered a $50 gift card and a return voucher for 4 day 3 night stay anywhere in the Welk system except Northstar or 3 days 2 nights at North Star. We used the gift card in the village to buy some ski gloves for my wife yesterday and I just got off the phone with Welk  about booking my return stay. You have to wait at least three months from your last tour date to book a return stay at Cabo and 6 months for a return stay at any other resort beside the one you just toured. If you want to go back to the same resort (North Star) the return trip has to be at least 12 months from your last tour. No problem we picked a weekend in February 2022 at North Star. The reservation was for a two bedroom unit  and cost $ 99.00 they offered an extra night for $ 135.00 more.  Sounded good to me so we paid $ 224.00 for 3 nights in two bedroom at North Star in February 2022. Check in Thursday with a scheduled owner update on Sunday morning. If we want to change dates its free as long as we give the guy a call 21 days in advance and subject to availability.

I will post a resort review in the resort section but I will say that from check in, owner update, and rebooking the return trip were all handled professionally and with very low pressure.  You may or may not like the locations or resorts but my expiernce with Welk staff so far has been very good. This was my first experience with anything Welk.


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## bradj

seatrout said:


> As a long time Marriott Owner, I have enjoyed my Marriott much more with the roll out of the DC.  It is much more flexible and easier to do the internal exchange than prior weeks system exchange to II.    That being said, I ended up buying more developer points to gain access to the "trust pool" of developer inventory.
> 
> On the Hyatt side,  wether member here agree it or not, there is value in getting HPP trust points.   Is it worth what I paid for?? only time will tell.  There seems to be greater "trust pool" compared to "legacy HRC"  inventory in typically difficult internal trade such as the ski resorts and Carmel on a simple search.  Maybe Hyatt has been buying these up through COVID foreclosure/ROFR.  The typical Key West inventory except Sunset are plentiful in both inventory pool.  But the more difficult inventory is more plentiful in the HPP Trust pool.  I initially brought  my Hyatt  weeks purely for points-- and have never stayed at my deeded week, I welcome the addition of any new resorts to Hyatt.  It would only increase the inventory to choose from.  So this merger and having larger trust pool to pick from is a positive.
> 
> Loosing the Hyatt name would devalue Hyatt timeshare that have synergy with neighboring Hyatt hotels.   This merger would also bring Welk/Hyatt/Marriott/Westin into a common pool in internal trading via II deposits.


I too was strictly a points buyer. Bought 3 weeks at separate times. Key West Beach House. Paid retail for my first one (week 9) in 2000. Learned my lesson well. Bought my last one in 2015 (week 20) on e-bay for ten ($10) dollars. Also Beach House. Passed ROFR @10 bucks. Go figure. Never been to my home resort. Couldn't even tell you how to get there. Traded in to Sunset Harbor up to 3 times a year (about 40 times). All high demand weeks. Why would I want to get tangled up in anyone's convoluted points program that even Hyatt's sales staff doesn't understand? Think there is value in HPP points? Buy some and try to sell them. Deeded weeks have at least one thing going for them. A DEED!


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## seatrout

At the end of the day,  all our timeshare looses value but we gain priceless memories with family.  I bought my first Marriott Ski week retail but everything else resale except developer points to play the game.  I also bought Beach House week 9 via resale  in the 2000 when it was worth real money.

Buying HPP points is not about buying value that can be sold in the future.  Nor is it due to the threat of HRC becoming worthless.  It is about making my existing HRC inventory more easier to use and flexible.  I had been saying no HPP for years.  This year with all the COVID restrictions, the Marriott portfolio was easy to manage due to banking, booking and--- canceling was an ease with Marriott.  I had to cancel/rebook/cancel/rebook my Hyatt Aspen week several time with Hyatt.  (Aspen  keep changing their rule with COVID).  Hate the Hyatt fees of each.  When I learn that I can now bank my Hyatt point and get rid some of the fees, it made HPP more attractive.  The rules  with Hyatt is still much more complicated than Marriott.


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## Sapper

bradj said:


> On Hyatt's website, the HRC Rules and Regulations that I could find ended with page #29 with 6.9. Can you tell me where I can access a #7 section? Also the Legal Terms and Conditions page appears to now be a one page disclaimer page with no way to open the actual document. Both docs used to be readily available online. Need some help here.











						HPC OWNER INFORMATION BOOK (AUG 2019 Version).pdf
					

Shared with Dropbox




					www.dropbox.com


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## bradj

Sapper said:


> HPC OWNER INFORMATION BOOK (AUG 2019 Version).pdf
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Actually, I'm looking for the Hyatt  Residence Club (HRC) terms and conditions that were available in the past on it's website. The highlighted link is a Public Offering Ststement for Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio (HPC) I've got a new customer service direct line. I'll give them a try. Thanks for your help.


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## normab

OMG.  I’m late to this picnic.  But here’s my perspective.  We’ve stayed at 2 Hyatts, 2 Sheratons, and one Welk resort. And many ( 20+ years) of other exchanges in Hawaii and the Caribbean that we really enjoyed even if not Marriott quality.  By far the best was the Welk resort we stayed at.  I think this is a great acquisition based on 22 years of time sharing with exchanges.


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## Tenga

NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID ABOUT HPP FALLACY "I'll just get on the inventory wait list". CLUB RULES STATE:

(5) HVGG may limit the size and duration of a particular Request List or Wait List in order to minimize Club Member expectations and maximize satisfaction levels.

How many are/were aware of this?  Anyone see 55 thousand new Welk members beating out pre - merger HPP members???? If I was a current HPP member, I'd be fighting like @ell to maintain a separate HPP wait list that Welk would have no access too.  HRC is a smaller member club merging with a larger Welk club.  Who's gonna get the squeeze??? 

Tenga


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## dmelcher13

I think these might be the HRC docs you are looking for.

Dave


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## bdh

Tenga said:


> If I was a current HPP member, I'd be fighting like @ell to maintain a separate HPP wait list that Welk would have no access too.  HRC is a smaller member club merging with a larger Welk club.  Who's gonna get the squeeze???
> 
> Tenga



It's the Golden Rule: the guy with the gold makes the rules - and the Trust has all the gold.  HPP owners don't have a platform or standing to say anything about anything - neither do the Welk points owners.  The only thing points buyers have is a piece of paper that isn't even good for toilet paper.


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## Sapper

bradj said:


> Actually, I'm looking for the Hyatt  Residence Club (HRC) terms and conditions that were available in the past on it's website. The highlighted link is a Public Offering Ststement for Hyatt Residence Club Portfolio (HPC) I've got a new customer service direct line. I'll give them a try. Thanks for your help.


Ah, sorry, I was tired when I added that and mis read.


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## heathpack

Tenga said:


> NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID ABOUT HPP FALLACY "I'll just get on the inventory wait list". CLUB RULES STATE:
> 
> (5) HVGG may limit the size and duration of a particular Request List or Wait List in order to minimize Club Member expectations and maximize satisfaction levels.
> 
> How many are/were aware of this?  Anyone see 55 thousand new Welk members beating out pre - merger HPP members???? If I was a current HPP member, I'd be fighting like @ell to maintain a separate HPP wait list that Welk would have no access too.  HRC is a smaller member club merging with a larger Welk club.  Who's gonna get the squeeze???
> 
> Tenga



Im getting confused.  What entity is HVGG?


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## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> Im getting confused.  What entity is HVGG?


From the disclosure guide;

_HVGG shall mean HV Global Group, Inc., a Delaware corporation. HVGG is an exchange company registered pursuant to applicable law for the purpose of offering exchange and reservation services and related vacation and travel benefits to Club Members at Club Resorts._

Basically it is the exchange company that facilitates the HRC club that is used for exchange services.


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## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> From the disclosure guide;
> 
> _HVGG shall mean HV Global Group, Inc., a Delaware corporation. HVGG is an exchange company registered pursuant to applicable law for the purpose of offering exchange and reservation services and related vacation and travel benefits to Club Members at Club Resorts._
> 
> Basically it is the exchange company that facilitates the HRC club that is used for exchange services.



Thanks, theres not enough hours in the day to read it all.


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## ivywag

heathpack said:


> Thanks, theres not enough hours in the day to read it all.


That’s what they’re counting on.


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## Tenga

Can any Welk owners confim this?

I have seen since the announcement by Marriott to merge Welk into HRC. Welk is offering or it may be coming from MVC offering all Welk owners to take back membership with no $$ money to the owner in a buy back?  With the stipulation that all current MF's paid on contract.  Another question? Has Welk offered this buy back in the past?

Thank you,
Tenga


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## Kal

Tenga said:


> Can any Welk owners confim this?
> 
> I have seen since the announcement by Marriott to merge Welk into HRC. Welk is offering or it may be coming from MVC offering all Welk owners to take back membership with no $$ money to the owner in a buy back?  With the stipulation that all current MF's paid on contract.  Another question? Has Welk offered this buy back in the past?
> 
> Thank you,
> Tenga


That tells me they want "free units" to dump into HPP without having to deal with deeded owners.  Hyatt has to somehow increase the HPP Trust inventory that isn't subject to annual decision making by HRC/HPP owners.  It also might offer some bait to HRC owners to buy into the HPP scam.


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## Shankilicious

I made a call to Welk today. They told me there is NO buyback program but there is a possible give back program where owners who have retail ownership paid off and current year VOAs paid are eligible for Welk to CONSIDER taking back their ownership. If accepted, the owner will have to pay $795 to give their ownership back to Welk.

I've heard of buyback programs in the past but, like the current one from Responsible Exit company, I beleive they're just third party companies that Welk has agreed to work with. 

I've got a call and email into Responsible Exit and they advised one of their realtors will get back with me shortly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

According to the Q4 earnings call, they are expecting the Welk resorts to be mainly rebranded to HRC by the end of 2021 with completion by first quarter 2022. The current RCI affiliation expires in 2022 after which they will reaffiliate it with II.


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## MillieG

Shankilicious said:


> In the other timeshares forum. I made a huge post explaining as much about Welk as possible.
> Welk is 99% points. Very few deeded/fixed weeks exist and they've been offering a premium to fixed week owners to convert them to points. MFs are similar so I'm curious/anxious/annoyed at this acquisition.....


Hi - I'd be interested in reading your other post - what other forum is it in please? Or could you provide a link?
Thanks!


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## Mongoose

Shankilicious said:


> I made a call to Welk today. They told me there is NO buyback program but there is a possible give back program where owners who have retail ownership paid off and current year VOAs paid are eligible for Welk to CONSIDER taking back their ownership. If accepted, the owner will have to pay $795 to give their ownership back to Welk.
> 
> I've heard of buyback programs in the past but, like the current one from Responsible Exit company, I beleive they're just third party companies that Welk has agreed to work with.
> 
> I've got a call and email into Responsible Exit and they advised one of their realtors will get back with me shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Pay $795 to give back your unit so they can resell it for $40K.  That takes some nerve.


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## Mongoose

MillieG said:


> Hi - I'd be interested in reading your other post - what other forum is it in please? Or could you provide a link?
> Thanks!


I wonder what will happen to all the small holdings Welk has purchased in other resorts like Arroyo Robel?


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## Shankilicious

Mongoose said:


> I wonder what will happen to all the small holdings Welk has purchased in other resorts like Arroyo Robel?


Good question. It's all up in the air now

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Mongoose said:


> I wonder what will happen to all the small holdings Welk has purchased in other resorts like Arroyo Robel?


If they still own deeded units, nothing really should change. I suspect most of those deeded units are in their trust under the points program. Should be no issue for them to continue to use them for that purpose.


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## nuwermj

dioxide45 said:


> If they still own deeded units, nothing really should change. I suspect most of those deeded units are in their trust under the points program. Should be no issue for them to continue to use them for that purpose.



I agree. Points against these deeds have been sold. If the new owner divests these resorts, something else will need to replace them so as to cover the points. There is no reason to divest those deeds and incur the cost of replacement.


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## Seagila

Shankilicious said:


> In the other timeshares forum. I made a huge post explaining as much about Welk as possible.
> Welk is 99% points. Very few deeded/fixed weeks exist and they've been offering a premium to fixed week owners to convert them to points. MFs are similar so I'm curious/anxious/annoyed at this acquisition.....





MillieG said:


> Hi - I'd be interested in reading your other post - what other forum is it in please? Or could you provide a link?
> Thanks!



I think you're looking for this thread -








						Welk.
					

So I hope this gets stickied as it it darn near all the information there is on Welk Resorts. Desrciption from the Welk website:  "Whether you prefer relaxing with a glass of wine on your villa’s private patio or a round of afternoon golf, Welk Resorts offers something for every kind of...




					tugbbs.com


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## RunCat

nuwermj said:


> I agree. Points against these deeds have been sold. If the new owner divests these resorts, something else will need to replace them so as to cover the points. There is no reason to divest those deeds and incur the cost of replacement.



With the large inventory that is still owned by the developer, I was wondering if these units could be removed from the system via a reduction in inventory.  Albeit, I'm not sure what the advantage would be in doing so except to maintain the Hyatt brand.  I have stayed in many of those units and they are not comparable to  most of the Welk brand so they will likely fall short for Hyatt owners.


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## Kal

RunCat said:


> With the large inventory that is still owned by the developer, I was wondering if these units could be removed from the system via a reduction in inventory.  Albeit, I'm not sure what the advantage would be in doing so except to maintain the Hyatt brand.  I have stayed in many of those units and they are not comparable to  most of the Welk brand so they will likely fall short for Hyatt owners.


Typically with Hyatt, unsold inventory is transferred to the Hyatt Portfolio Program.  Each unit would have a point value assigned.


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## RunCat

Kal said:


> Typically with Hyatt, unsold inventory is transferred to the Hyatt Portfolio Program.  Each unit would have a point value assigned.



Thank you for that information.   Looking at these resorts specifically,  https://thecollection.welkresorts.com, where Welk has limited ownership,  I'm not sure if they are a good fit for the Hyatt brand.


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## Mongoose

RunCat said:


> Thank you for that information.   Looking at these resorts specifically,  https://thecollection.welkresorts.com, where Welk has limited ownership,  I'm not sure if they are a good fit for the Hyatt brand.


Its a great option. They could probably be added as some type of affiliate resort.  But typically Welk only had a small number of room nights per location.  I wouldn't see them being branded Hyatt.


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## SHG

You guys seem to be confusing the Welk affiliate resorts with the Welk owned resorts. If you read the acquisition details, it clearly points out that the only resorts included are the ones shown in the link below....

Welk Resorts | Luxury Resorts


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## dioxide45

Also, unsold Welk inventory is in their points system trust. No easy way to just move that over to Hyatt.


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## nuwermj

SHG said:


> You guys seem to be confusing the Welk affiliate resorts with the Welk owned resorts. If you read the acquisition details, it clearly points out that the only resorts included are the ones shown in the link below....



This is not correct. Resorts, per se, were not sold. Welk sold the developer rights, the management contracts, unsold inventory, and their loan portfolio. Maybe some land. But the Welk Platinum Owners Association was not owned by Welk, Inc. and was not sold. This Owner's Association owns the deeds that Welk point members can reserve. The Owners Association does, indeed, own deeds at the "Collection" resorts-- except for the Disney resorts. The three Disney resorts in the Collection are affiliates, the others are full ownership. Although the Owners Association owns these deeds, Welk (now Mariott) does not hold the management contracts nor the developer rights at these resorts. One can find all the details about what is owned in the Public Offering



			https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
		


Here is a statement by the HOA of The Cliffs at Princeville, at Kauai, which is an example of one the Collection resorts:

"I am pleased to report that, after much hard work and effort, the bulk sale of the equivalent of 105 every year intervals to the Welk Resort Group was completed in late 2017. In addition to the funds that the CRVOA received from the actual sale of the intervals, this means that we will also receive over $100,000 in additional maintenance fees in 2018 and that we did not receive in 2017. We expect that this will keep us financially stable for many years to come. Special thanks to Rosarie Kelekoma for going above and beyond the call of duty to make this sale a reality. We are excited to have the Welk Resort Group as part of The Cliffs Resort ohana and are all very excited to have them as owners at our resort."


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## Ernie McClellan

nuwermj said:


> This is not correct. Resorts, per se, were not sold. Welk sold the developer rights, the management contracts, unsold inventory, and their loan portfolio. Maybe some land. But the Welk Platinum Owners Association was not owned by Welk, Inc. and was not sold. This Owner's Association owns the deeds that Welk point members can reserve. The Owners Association does, indeed, own deeds at the "Collection" resorts-- except for the Disney resorts. The three Disney resorts in the Collection are affiliates, the others are full ownership. Although the Owners Association owns these deeds, Welk (now Mariott) does not hold the management contracts nor the developer rights at these resorts. One can find all the details about what is owned in the Public Offering
> 
> 
> 
> https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a statement by the HOA of The Cliffs at Princeville, at Kauai, which is an example of one the Collection resorts:
> 
> "I am pleased to report that, after much hard work and effort, the bulk sale of the equivalent of 105 every year intervals to the Welk Resort Group was completed in late 2017. In addition to the funds that the CRVOA received from the actual sale of the intervals, this means that we will also receive over $100,000 in additional maintenance fees in 2018 and that we did not receive in 2017. We expect that this will keep us financially stable for many years to come. Special thanks to Rosarie Kelekoma for going above and beyond the call of duty to make this sale a reality. We are excited to have the Welk Resort Group as part of The Cliffs Resort ohana and are all very excited to have them as owners at our resort."



Thanks for the CA disclosure on Welk. That document does a great job of really laying out the Welk system. Especially the "Collection" resorts. I had no idea Welk actually owned deeded weeks at those resorts.


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