# Demeure - UE



## TarheelTraveler

Press release for Demeure as bidder for UE assets:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-destination-club-members-woes-105474773.html

 "Demeure...announced it has been selected as the successful bidder for a bulk lot in the bankruptcy estate of Ultimate Escapes, the second largest destination club with more than 1,247 members. Demeure's plan restarts member access to many of the same residences Ultimate Escape's members previously had through their prior membership. The transaction remains subject to court approval, and satisfaction of closing conditions...."

DCNews article:

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Selected_As_Successful_Bidder_For_Ultimate_Escapes.php

Letter to Members from CRO

"Dear Ultimate Escapes Members,
I am pleased to inform you that the Company has reached agreement with the Laurence Group, based in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, to sell a number of the company’s properties and to offer members an opportunity to transition their Ultimate Escapes membership experience to the Demeure travel club, an affiliate of the Laurence Group, on preferred terms. The transaction remains subject to court approval and satisfaction of closing conditions.
I am also pleased to inform you that the Laurence Group has additionally agreed to lease a significant number of the Company’s former properties from Capital Source, which combined with the homes they are buying, will allow for members to continue to use the majority of the homes they know and love.
Our agreement allows for Demeure to invite our members to transition your membership to the Demeure club, and, unlike the previous offers you may have received from third parties, this offer is not only authorized by the Company, but has our complete support. The Company will be working hand in hand with Demeure in transitioning all interested members to their Club.
I believe this is a very good result for the members, and that we have accomplished our goal of providing a home for members that will enable them to begin traveling again very soon.
A press release is being issued contemporaneously by Demeure, and we will post it on the Member Only Website as soon as it is available.
As always, we thank you again for your support. If you have questions, you may submit them via email to bankruptcy@ultimateescapes.com.
Thank you,
Sheon Karol CRO"


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## 3DH

TarheelTraveler said:


> this offer is not only authorized by the Company, but has our complete support.



I just have to wonder how members feel about this statement... reminds me of LUSSO giving it's backing to the Q offer when they (LUSSO, obviuosly) went into bankruptcy! I can tell you that with how the club had been run and the situation that they were in, the last thing I wanted to do was take their advice!


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## Desties

Details? Terms? 

We'll get that in the coming days.

I'm still scratching my head. The chatter is that we'll have to front deposits, but that doesn't sound like the Demeure model at all, where you basically pay $2,500 for five years to receive 40% discounts on properties in its portfolio -- or you pay nothing if you contribute a minimum number of nights at your own vacation home and get in for free and with 50% discounts. 

How can that model possibly have UE refugees digging into their pockets -- unless it's an equity model where those who kick in will own a piece of the old UE properties they acquired (again -- which ones)? 

Obviously a concept that promises "no deposits ever" is not going to demand refundable deposits -- so anyone holding out hope for Demeure as a way to get their original deposits back is out of luck. And if Demeure is serious, obviously it's not going to be charging us the same $2,500 rack rate for the 5-year membership to UE refugees, though it's unlikely to be free either (unless the UE homes are somehow considered real estate contribution, even though it's obviously CapSource's real estate now).

This is definitely NOT what I was hoping for. Stupid Quintess. You could've bought UE and be welcomed as saviors. Now you're just the "other woman" that distracted UE during the final 6 months of its life.


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## Kagehitokiri2

no, demeure originally talked about owning some properties, then never mentioned it again until now.

but yes, it was planned to be equity actually, now that i think about it. so in terms of "deposits" that might actually be ok. and maybe other demeure members/investors will put in some as well?

that would just leave the ongoing lease costs.

...

Q is already dumping properties into duo. they must have finally decided they didnt want many of UE's properties.


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## EOD

*Q*

I don't think Q could have bought UE. Buying it means you get all the debt along with all the homes. So, say you pay zero for the whole company, it still doesn't work since UE could not cover its expenses.  Cap source would have to have agreed to substantially restructure debt to make it work.  Cap source may be happy to just foreclose on the whole company and take ownership.  Will be fascinating to hear what UE members will be able to expect in terms of refund of deposit in the future.  I'm guessing: zero....Cap source after all doesn't care if members get paid back.


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## Kagehitokiri2

demeure
buy 11 properties $14.3mm
lease 45 properties $4.3mm/yr  ($0 > $6k > $23k per month)

something about dues of at least $12mm? ($12mm / 1200 = $10k)

there has still not been any communication?? obviously question is what are UE member terms, but possibly more importantly is how does this relate to their current members, at time of closing, and moving forward.


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## UEgly

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> something about dues of at least $12mm? ($12mm / 1200 = $10k)




Getting enough UE members to join Demeure so they get at least $12MM in binding annual dues commitments is a closing condition to the sale.  So if enough of us don't bite, there is no deal (unless D waives the condition for some reason).


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## Desties

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> demeure
> buy 11 properties $14.3mm
> lease 45 properties $4.3mm/yr  ($0 > $6k > $23k per month)
> 
> something about dues of at least $12mm? ($12mm / 1200 = $10k)



It's amazing how non-UE members are getting the details of this before UE members. 

I'm not sure how this is supposed to fly. Even if it is on a "dues only" basis, who would join a green club with just 11 properties and 45 leases that can be sold off by CapSource at any time? 

One of the worst things about being a UE member over the past year and change -- outside of paying phantom dues -- was that you never knew if a booked property was going to be sold off before your trip. Even VRBO comes with less uncertainty! 

Obviously the club can't plan on 1200 members. Dozens will go to DUO. Dozens will go to EE. The who knows how many comp'd members won't go anywhere. There were also hundreds of T&H and PE members that were paying dues only for the shot at resigning after a set time to get their deposits back -- and obviously _that_ isn't happening here.  

Blech!


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## HereWeGoAgain

*NUTS..!!*

Title says it all...

This "deal" is the sale of a few homes to D to get CS a bit of debt reduction, then CS holds the others, but will be trying to sell them all the time hoping for value recovery.  I don't think CS is suddenly changing its business to becoming a landlord.  The D leasing transaction is simply to have some income for CS to help with carrying costs while they sell the homes off ASAP.  So, a shot at a way out for CS, albeit with a probable haircut...but they have certainly got a major reserve on this loan already.

For UE members - basically nada....  Certainly *no* recovery of past bond or membership deposits.  New dues to be paid, even for those with unused nights from earlier dues already paid into this mess.  And, probably at market rental costs at best, but with a very limited selection.  So, why not just use VRBO or rent through a RE broker in the locations that you really want to visit..??   

So, goodbye DC club model....hello rentals....


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## Kagehitokiri2

dc model (exchange free) isnt going anywhere

*Desties*, its all right here >
http://www.bmcgroup.com/restructuring/DocView.aspx?ClientID=255&DocNumber=381&CaseNo=1-10-bk-12915

1. equity?
2. investors?
3. UE members vs regular members moving forward?


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## TarheelTraveler

Some new info on UE member terms on Sherpa:

http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/demuere-buys-ultimate-escapes-assets.html


"Demeure is inviting all the Ultimate Escapes members to join Demeure. Ultimate members who lost their travel credits in 2010, due to the bankruptcy, will have this applied to their new account in Demeure. Members will all have a 2 year window to book ahead when making their reservations. The annual dues in the new club will be 15% higher than in Ultimate Escapes and Peter stated that he’s looking to get about 60% of the membership to join in order to cover the costs of the homes. There are no joining fees.

Of the roughly 150,000 nights that Demeure has available across its portfolio, about 30,000 of them offer discounts to club members, with the homes from Ultimate Escapes making up the bulk of this discounted group. The discounts range from at least 20% to 50% from the retail rental rate.

Demeure is planning to hold a webinar next week and will be sending out lots of information to the Ultimate members.

Peter thought some of the Ultimate Escapes members may self organize in groups and buy some of the homes, then put the spare capacity into the club. Essentially giving them a real estate play in the houses they own and yet having access to 300+ homes around the world."


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## DCworker

Welcome, Ultimate Escapes Members


Dear XXX,


After an intensive process working through the Ultimate Escapes bankruptcy process, we are pleased to offer our sincere welcome to Demeure. Our goal is to move the membership and portfolio to a safe and secure financial footing as soon as possible.

Each step of the way has been designed to address the concerns you have shared around stability, flexibility, transparency, and fairness. Specifically, Demeure provides an opportunity for you to enjoy the originally intended travel benefits of Ultimate Escapes without any upfront assessment, surcharges or risky deposits. In removing the burden of the capital risk historically asked of members and moving to a "dues only" model Demeure allows you to pay for what you chose while maintaining the service level and personal touch you expect.

We carefully analyzed the post-bankruptcy costs of the properties purchased and leased as part of this transaction. We've been able to make the club economics work with a modest 15% increase in the amount you previous spent with Ultimate Escapes each year.

Highlights of the Offer:

Membership transition to Demeure is without any deposit risk or membership plan decisions. Simply agree to travel as you intended with Ultimate Escapes;
We are in the process of reactivating the Ultimate Escapes reservations and are working to clarify the status of your travel plans. Your planners will be contacting you to discuss your specific situation.
The core Ultimate Escapes portfolio, Escape Planners, and Local Hosts will be reactivated and scaled based upon total Membership transition milestones;
Services will remain substantially the same;
Ultimate Escapes used a large membership deposit plus pre-paid dues model for travel payment. Demeure operates efficiently on the dues or what we refer to as travel commitment component. To ensure a successful and immediate re-start of the operations and future sustainability, a "dues" increase equivalent to 15% of your previous Ultimate Escapes membership program is required;
Demeure will be waiving the customary six month early termination fee by applying a credit value of the prepaid dues you may have lost from the prior club;
To honor the lost value of former Ultimate Escapes members we offer the ability to participate in a one time, special event transition lottery;
For a period of 90 days, newly converted Demeure members have the option to purchase select assets from the Ultimate Escapes portfolio, individually or collectively, at the same terms negotiated by Demeure during the bankruptcy process.
To ensure that your ability to travel is reactivated as soon as possible, please review the Demeure Offer Terms: http://demeure.com/news/ue-offer.pdf

Your Escape Planner will provide you with assistance completing the membership conversion documents beginning Monday October 25th,2010. Your membership transition should be confirmed by Friday November 5th, 2010.

We invite you to learn more about Demeure and the transition process during a web presentation scheduled for Tuesday, October 26 at 7 pm EST. Look for the invitation link in a follow up email from your Escape Planner.

I'm sure you may be asking, "Who is Demeure?" We invite you to view our website at demeure.com for more background on Demeure, but here is the key difference between Demeure and destination clubs: Demeure does not require the financial risk associated with membership deposits and is not dependent upon direct club ownership of assets for you to enjoy more flexible and less costly access to a greater variety of homes, villas, flats and hotels all around the world. Demeure's affiliate, Laurence Development, LLP, purchased several homes and arranged leases for others to stabilize the club.

While we cannot replace the loss of your deposit that was long ago spent at UE, your new Demeure membership ensures that you can travel confidently with full control of your vacation experiences; and without the risk to your capital once again.

You may begin calling your Kansas City-based Escape Planning team beginning 12 pm EST Monday October 25th. We'll be working together to prepare for your smooth transition as a new Demeure member and immediate reactivation of club operations. If you require service on an existing reservation, they'll be there for you too.

Feel free to reply to ue@demeure.com with any questions you have of the process. 
All the best,
Peter Schwartz
Chairman and CEO
Demeure

demeure.com
ue@demeure.com

P.S. Membership transition is time sensitive. To ensure that your ability to travel is activated as quickly as possible, please carefully read the Demeure Offer Terms and contact your Escape Planner with any questions. Your transition should be completed by November 5th.


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## Kagehitokiri2

well im glad to see communication next mon/tues.

join by nov 5 - thats 2 weeks from today. so the idea is that this is simply an "intent" to see whether the minimums are met? obviously the process is nowhere near done yet.

------

UE = 11 own + 45 lease = 20,000 nights (out of 30,000 night figure which i dont fully understand...)

the doc says 13 own (+2) and 46 lease (+1) 

they do not say anything about being equity investment... this seems ridiculous... what are their plans for the leased properties...

also dont understand UE member vs demeure member...

------

and a move to points. the trade off >


> points are better for people who want more travel time - lower season, cheaper accommodation, or both.
> 
> no points are better for people who want more expensive stuff - holidays, expensive accommodation, or both.


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## Desties

Maybe I'm just dense, but what am I missing here? Why would I go this route -- committing to paying 15% more in dues for travel to properties that I still haven't been shown the rates to (so I have no idea how many nights I would be getting) when those same properties are available to the regular Demeure club who didn't have to prepay a five-figure sum every year? 

I can appreciate that the services are custom-priced (I was never big on the concierge extras outside of initial grocery stocking). I like how members are encourage to purchase some of the assets -- as long as they commit to offering them up to the club for at least five years. I like how my favorite of the Signature properties -- Provo's Grace Bay property -- was one of the few actually purchased by Demeure. 

Still, I have no idea if I'm getting a good or bad deal here? My initial reaction is to pass and then consider the regular Demeure membership route to revisit some of the UE homes every so often.

Why pay 15% more in dues, when the main reason I was paying the dues was to remain in good standing so I can get my deposit back? Absent that, it becomes a matter of prepaying a year's worth of travel to Demeure for a small lot of homes or paying as I go for a wider selection through VRBO, etc.

This will be an interesting webinar for sure, but I can't see how this makes any sense. And -- once again -- the short deadline to make an important decision is as classy as it sounds. 

Is there anyone who is sold on this offer?


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## Kagehitokiri2

agree - what are they calculating - gibberish? they need to find out how many are interested then divide cost transparently.

also very strange no discussion of equity investment or their plans re buying leased properties.
'can buy leased properties' - seriously? thats it? if YOURE not planning to buy any, then why did you option them?

is anyone understanding UE member vs demeure member? im not sure if they consider it fully explained in the doc or not.

seems its a question of how vague next week, not if. keep hope alive for at least relative transparency.


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## ClubsRDead

You're probably not "dense," just astute.

Let's quickly review the deal in simplistic form:  They're going to pay $14MM for some 10 "C" list homes, not the choice stuff.  They're leasing 45 at carry costs of almost $5M.  They're required by the lender to have $7.5MM working capital on hand for closing.  They've put $10MM down; they need another $12MM to close.  How do you get that?  Sign up members to the tune of probably $25k-30k each.  

Read the pdf as part of the mailing they sent - they want a 5 year commitment.  In addition, as an "added bonus" you can purchase any of the leased or other homes from CS, through them, at the Demeure negotiated rates.  Check those out - they're all listed with strike prices higher than the stalking horse bids.

There is nothing compelling about this offer.  Maybe if we're smart and all say "no" it will get better - either with them or with someone else (perhaps the unreasonable lender).  

There's no equity in this deal - just an increase in costs and uncertainty.  At a time in the world when everything else is going DOWN in cost, we're supposed to pay more, once again, to pay for someone else's sins of the past.


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## Kagehitokiri2

ClubsRDead said:


> They're leasing 45 at carry costs of almost $5M.  They're required by the lender to have $7.5MM working capital on hand for closing.  They've put $10MM down; they need another $12MM to close.  How do you get that?  Sign up members to the tune of probably $25k-30k each.
> 
> Read the pdf as part of the mailing they sent - they want a 5 year commitment.  In addition, as an "added bonus" you can purchase any of the leased or other homes from CS, through them, at the Demeure negotiated rates.  Check those out - they're all listed with strike prices higher than the stalking horse bids.


ah, gotcha. so they are charging dues to buy properties. i was just going to say, its only $4.3mm for leases, so why do they even need much dues? sigh. <insert emoticon here>

there goes any hope of equity investment. more opaque game playing. i can see why people keep saying THAT is the DC model.

i also noticed the differences in property values/bids/prices/etc.


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## Nwtm74a

Desties said:


> I like how my favorite of the Signature properties -- Provo's Grace Bay property -- was one of the few actually purchased by Demeure.



Where can I find a list of the properties that were purchased by Demure?


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## Kagehitokiri2

see post 10.

i guess they decided (a while ago) against buying properties because they didnt want to do equity? but now they see an opportunity to pull a move like UE, without the debt.

but then wouldnt ER and Q (with their much more substantial backing, right?) have considered doing the exact same thing if they thought it could work, as a separate club etc? ok, reasons not to. ER has "brand integrity." but Q already has 3 clubs total now, and multiple clubs with caps has always been a concept, like lusso. yet with duo they just shifted properties. and with pricing that isnt way lower than Q. http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=997411&postcount=1064

* is there currently any group discussion amongst UE members via email or that other forum etc?


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## ClubsRDead

This isn't designed as a tiered club, or so the offer says.  I suppose a premier members with relatively low dues (some JT special deal) could really capitalize on this if Demeure was willing to let them in and only add 15%, and there was actually access to the upper level homes.

"_For a period of 90 days, newly converted Demeure members are able to purchase select assets from the Ultimate Escapes portfolio, individually or collectively, at the same terms negotiated by Demeure during the bankruptcy process_."

Hmm....that's not a deal.  When you read the "Option Purchase Prices," you'll note that they are significantly higher than value, even double in some instances what the stalking horse prices were.

This was entirely predicatable - someone comes along with an unproven model, smaller business and needs us to prop up their purchase price and plan with additional costs out of our wallet.  Understandably, nothing is for free and JT and co left the club in a complete financial disaster - but the cost per night of travel doesn't have to go up -- we can just go elsewhere.


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## Desties

Nwtm74a said:


> Where can I find a list of the properties that were purchased by Demure?



I'll save you the time by pointing out that the list is on Page 115 of that link.

The 11 properties purchased:

From Elite - Maui and Trump NYC
From Sig - La Quinta, Trump NYC, Lake George, Miami Beach, Turks
From Pre - Stowe, 1600 Broadway, Chicago, Tuscany (Borgo di Vagli)

I don't see these as C-list properties. This is a much better collection than the DUO property set that Q claims averages $2 million (where here it's obviously averaging $1.3 million). 

As for Premiere vs. Elite dues differences, obviously we're only talking about the amount being prepaid annually. This is really nothing more than a prepaid DC debit card, isn't it? Premiere may be paying a third to half of what Elite members pay, but they would be staying at a third to half as many nights if they're booking the same properties. 

I don't mind that -- especially since different properties have different values. This is freakishly close to the point-based system that some used to bring up on DC4MS or even, gasp, timeshare exchanges. 

In short, there are some parts of the model that I like. I just don't think it will fly because I am still waiting to hear one convincing reason to pay 115% of what I used to pay for what will likely be less value and greater uncertainty when I can just become a regular Demeure member. 

And for those of us who found that we had more available days than we can use usually, can we trade down? The deal as offered now is unlikely to appeal to me, but maybe I'd consider it if it was 15% more on 25% or 50% of what I used to pay -- trading down accordingly. If not, where's the carrot? 

"Sign here by November 5" is NOT a carrot. It's a dagger.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*deal*

and most importantly we do not know what rents they will charge us for usage of each property (and does it vary by time of year), what will be availability, and use/extra fees they will charge.  We do know what they are paying to rent the properties but not what they would charge us (surely more than they would pay on a daily basis given their profit motive and that they sort of absorb down time but not if we prepay enough deposits).  I'm skeptical at best.


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## Kagehitokiri2

another thing re the covenant as pointed out by *ClubsRDead* re buying properties at the end of each year - it decreases over 3 years IIRC - which means they need less dues each year. if theyre not discussing this already, it means its not going to happen. so theyre going to see dramatic increase in dues profit margin.


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## Passepartout

Deleted... Jim


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## DCworker

October 2010

Your Transition Questions Answered


Thank you for the thoughtful responses and questions that have been streaming in over the last several hours since issuance of our initial membership communication and offer. We thought it best to group many of these questions into themes and send them out to you as a membership group as a whole, while answering specific questions that require personal attention will be returned appropriately.

We have created this Frequently Asked Questions section on Demeure.com with specific questions posed directly from the Ultimate Escapes members. Please check back frequently for updates:
When do we start to travel?

We are committed to having you travel regularly again Jan 1, 2011 and we will do our best to facilitate any travel for the balance of 2010.

Are there any hidden charges or potential added fees I would have to pay?

There are no hidden charges. The only additional charges you may incur would be through services that you request outside of the regular services provided at each property. Ie: groceries, spa services, chef services etc.

Do we have credit for UE money or is this new billing for use of existing reservations?

All prepaid dues and membership deposits were lost as a result of the bankruptcy. Demeure is extending a credit to those members that convert within the offer period based upon their situation. New travel deposits in your trust account will be applied against forward travel with Demeure.

How do I know that my annual dues are protected?

Your annual dues will be placed into a segregated interest bearing trust account that is settled in a secure electronic environment ensuring that funds are protected at all times. Interest will accrue to the member.

At UE there were three difference levels of membership. I believe I was “Elite.” How does that translate into the new structure?

You would be committing to the same annual travel plan budget with Demeure as you had with UE. The added benfit is the ability to choose availability in any home in the UE portfolio in addition to the Demeure portfolio (approximately 400 properties combined).

Are the services any different what I had at Ultimate Escapes?

We are committed to providing the same level of service from the same service providers as well as including a list of a la carte services allowing you to pay only for what it is you use; mindful luxury.

Again, thank you for the first wave of responses. We’re looking forward to getting you traveling again soon.

The Demeure Team
demeure.com
ue@demeure.com


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## Desties

With an FAQ like that, it's no wonder why surfing the website only leads to MORE unanswered questions.

Demeure, hello, we need to see what kind of bang we're getting for your buck. Your stylish yet vacuous website provides little details on the properties (and with weak geographical mapping), but at the very least PUBLISH YOUR RATES. 

I can't think of anyone who will agree to pay more than they did at UE without that information. Heck, I can't conceive someone joining the traditional plan without wondering how good a deal they're getting for that $2,500 cover charge.

I'm not as concerned about availability as others, because I see the 200-ish properties already submitted to the plan. My question, though, is why the heck is continental U.S. coverage limited to Colorado and Nantucket? 

While we're at it, how long is the minimum stay? What's the cancellation policy? How are you weighing the 200+ PE Legacy members when it comes to dues?


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## Kagehitokiri2

specifically no mention of housekeeping etc. slick.

http://demeure.com/news/ultimate-escapes/
might be something theyll update?

http://demeure.com/news/about/team/
Mark Cibik – Director of Sales  
those from DC4MS should remember him.

also, no comments about TTT yet? because its simply an upscale version, with chapters, and now an attempt to get free real estate along with quicker cash flow.


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## travelguy

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> also, *no comments about TTT yet*? because its simply an upscale version, with chapters, and now an attempt to get free real estate along with quicker cash flow.



As long as they are not comments *FROM *TTT.


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## Kagehitokiri2

http://quintess.com/pdf/news-crittenden-june-2010.pdf


> The club saw 22,000 days of travel in 2009 by its more than 1,200 members



aha. average is only 18 days, but THAT is what they were using to sell member list. perfect for points-style.


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## ClubsRDead

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> http://demeure.com/news/about/team/
> Mark Cibik – Director of Sales
> those from DC4MS should remember him.



Don't have to have been on DC4MS to remember this guy, all you had to do was wire him $450k+ during the THAK days.  Oh yes, I remember this scum bag very, very well.  Shouldn't be a surprise that McGrath brought him and others along during his Demeure tenure.

I guess Cibik has the objection / response planned for when he calls us to enroll us and we say "hey, aren't you the guy that stole our money?"

Not only did I personally buy a membership but also "invested" in Abercrombie and Kent Towne Clubs.  My return on both was about what I expect to receive from UE now...

What a joke.


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## Kagehitokiri2

was just checking emails, emailed demeure early this month about rates, and the pre-pay set up. no response.


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## Desties

Coming from the PE side, I have no beef with Cibik. I'm guessing that if any kind of luxury booking/DC is starting up, they're going to want someone with experience and a Rolodex of rich leads. It's only natural to turn to marketers already in the business.

However, this may very well be yet another reason why Demeure doesn't get anywhere close to the $12 million annual committment it needs. Let's face it. Demeure isn't a good match for the 200-300 PE Legacy members who have flexible spending plans (low annual dues, then the flexible per night component) to commit to a set amount of higher travel spending. If the T&H camp have bad blood behind the Demeure team, that's more than half of UE right there that aren't coming along. 

So, what happens next? What happens come November 5 when Demeure has to back out because of a lack of support? Sheon and Capital Source have yet to do what's right by the members (not that I can blame Sheon if nobody wants us collectively at this point). The end is near, right? EE gets its 60. DUO gets another dozen or two or three. A&K may get a handful of the original T&H members to clear out legislation. 

Either way, our collective value is toast since nobody stepped up to run UE with a more cost-conscious approach. The difference between UE and a skeezy oriental massage parlor is that only one offers a happy ending.


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## Kagehitokiri2

considering cibik had spoken with media in the past, his response to bill was.. odd. this is when he was head of sales at solstice, although his title made him sound like senior management. bill ended up getting response from real senior management basically distancing themselves from cibik's response.

EE has gotten 60? im curious what the terms post lusso are. *DestiFan* said their plan was a lot better than offer to lusso members. edit - gotcha, sorry *Desties*.


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## Desties

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> EE has gotten 60?



No. There are three different options for UE members, and each one is limited to 20 members. 

The crummier everything else looks, the easier it should be for EE to get the 60. 

The DUO number is also just a best guess on my part.


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## KBG

*Rates and Pricing for Demeure- Ultimate Fiasco*

Does any one have info on Demeure Rates and pricing or contacts with current members to prevent recurrence of this fiasco.

What are the options available to UE members with the Bankruptcy court  and the swindlers. Specofically do the members have any rights so that the Bankrupty judge has their inout and interests too

Thanks


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## Kagehitokiri2

the question is "rate range" as in what is the cheapest rate and most expensive. both for UE properties, and the rest of their portfolio. 

not getting this information out early in the "JOIN US UE MEMBERS!" seems like a negative sign, as most of the signs are.

the whole pick an amount for 5 years also seems odd to me. or could it change every year? anyway - why cant you just pay as you go? i mean with UE members - gotcha, covering lease and some buys. but rest of members? surely you can book more time / really expensive properties at any time, so...


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## TarheelTraveler

I've not really commented much on this, so excuse the rant.

I feel very bad for the UE members. They've got a lot of options out there, but none of them seem to be obvious good choices.  It would've been nice if a Hilton, Marriott or some brand name travel provider would have stepped up, just so members can feel more confident in their future, but clearly the deposits and value have been spent.  Nonetheless, I'm sure the members are sick of funding others' new business ventures.

This is a classic example of how the members really needed representation of their interests.  The worth of the membership really is as a group, but I suspect the other parties involved would rather not have the members communicating as a group.  Since members are not communicating or acting as a group, members will just do their own things, diminishing the value that's there.

A few questions for anyone with information:

Who does the CRO represent?  CapSource? 
I know the unsecured creditors committee got involved late in the game, but did the UCC not have any better suggestions/options for the UE members?
Does Demeure have any operating experience or history as a travel provider?
Why would Demeure hire/contract with individuals whose experience originated with a bankrupt club (in the case of sales, two bankrupt clubs), particularly when you are selling to members already burned, and in some cases members who might feel burned by the same individuals?
How is the Demeure offer for UE members better than their general offer to non-UE members other than most of the same houses (although most are subject to change under leases) and some sort of credit to dues?
To the extent members are paying dues in excess of lease costs and operational expenses, do members build up any equity or deposit return?
What are the details behind the offering and company (e.g., pro formas for Demeure, financials for Laurence, member rights to future financials for Demeure, cancellation policies, rates, limits on future price increases, minimum standards for accomodations, minimum amenities for accomodations)?
Why would owners of houses rent their houses for 40-50% off of list price (unless properties or time offered is not prime)?
Is the pricing any better than what you'd get elsewhere?
How does Demeure at the end of the day differ from other leasing/trade models?

On the positive side, at least Demeure doesn't require any additional deposits (although no ownership either), and they do provide a large number of properties. In any event, Demeure definitely seems worth exploring, but a lot of questions do need to be answered.


----------



## ClubsRDead

Desties said:


> Coming from the PE side, I have no beef with Cibik.



So, your "beef" would (or, should) be with Keith, or maybe the EE owner Adam, who was a salesguy for PE?  You know Keith started in this field with McGrath, right?  He was the COO at Private Retreats.

It's unfortunate that some of these guys continue on from club to club and continue to try to take more dollars from the same group of people.  It's even stranger that some of us continue to hand them money.

McGrath spent 9 months with Demeure and didn't get nudged to the side until Demeure Counsel suggested his name be suppressed.  The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree here - if they weren't peas in a pod none of them would have spent so much time together.


----------



## ClubsRDead

TarheelTraveler said:


> It would've been nice if a Hilton, Marriott or some brand name travel provider would have stepped up, just so members can feel more confident in their future



Why didn't your club?  That's twice they left us high and dry.  Not sure how many would go along with it but seems like they should have stepped in since 1/3 to 1/2 of UE members originally wrote checks to AK when they got into this crumbling industry in the first place.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

wow re keith. then add the whole him/family holding loans/etc for PE.

9 months? didnt demeure claim less?

just keeps getting worse...

why should AK license be treated differently than any other licensing?


----------



## TarheelTraveler

I have no idea.  I've only heard rumors from various people.  Supposedly they looked based on UE member comments but don't know anything more than that.  Maybe because the model doesn't mesh well when there are no deposits left.  Maybe because they wouldn't carve out the members that bought during the A&K licensed days.  Maybe they didn't want to do a multi-tiered club.  I really have no idea.  As long as it didn't negatively impact the equity members, I would've loved to have seen that happen.

For that matter, not sure why Quintess didn't bid given they supposedly were ready to buy the club before bankruptcy and had a deal in place when the club would have been presumably a lot more expensive.  Not sure why Marriott/RC didn't.  Not sure why the timeshare operator that was interested didn't move forward.  I do think the industry as a whole could have stepped up to offer a range of different options, because every member has a different perspective on things, but the industry has not been the hallmark of cooperation.  Some will think Demeure is great and a lot will walk away.  Not one solution fits all members.  Furthermore, UE was so large that it's a big chunk of change for any one buyer to take on the whole, particularly if sticking to a DC format (versus more of a lease format).

Personally I think the industry or the members of DCs need to call for regulation.  The timeshare industry wasn't cleaned up until that point.  There are still clubs out there that have no requirements as to how members' deposits are spent.  It won't do UE members any good, but at least it may save some other people.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

maybe Q and other nonequity were giving UE members more credit than demeure at the moment. 

perhaps AK is doing one of the offers theye done before. (terms have been public)

IIRC the last EE offer where terms were made public was the lusso one.



Kagehitokiri2 said:


> i guess they decided (a while ago) against buying properties because they didnt want to do equity? but now they see an opportunity to pull a move like UE, without the debt.
> 
> but then wouldnt ER and Q (with their much more substantial backing, right?) have considered doing the exact same thing if they thought it could work, as a separate club etc? ok, reasons not to. ER has "brand integrity." but Q already has 3 clubs total now, and multiple clubs with caps has always been a concept, like lusso. yet with duo they just shifted properties. and with pricing that isnt way lower than Q. http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=997411&postcount=1064
> 
> * is there currently any group discussion amongst UE members via email or that other forum etc?



...

so 15% increase, and $12mm for demeure deal equates to $10.4mm in current dues, before 15% addition

UE 2009 >


Kagehitokiri2 said:


> TarheelTraveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> incoming dues are something like 16M.
> 
> 
> 
> i got the same thing ($16,330,237) by breaking out non-recurring >
Click to expand...

10.4 / 16.3 = *64%*

also highly amusing that demeure is saying no deposit in this case when theyre rolling nonequity home purchases into dues. kind of like UE's amortization of deposits/refunds and then their lumping of assessment revenue into dues so you couldnt break out non-recurring. or lusso's insane lease "to own" rates which they counted the same as purchases. or TH using deposit money on investments other than club residences.

...

what the heck is UCC counsel doing.. (appear withdraw etc)

...

re demeure - wasnt TTT person talking about selling on DC4MS? also, one key world residence owners might be another good target.

interesting article re homeaway >
http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2010/03/05/the-100-million-revenue-club-homeawaycom/
raised $405mm, revenue $120mm

http://www.homeexchange.com/ exchange only


----------



## pete1801

*Ultimate members voting no on Demeure*

There is a bulletin board for ultimate escapes members that is running a straw poll on who will join Demeure.

With over 800 registered users, so far 100 have voted (nearing statistical significance), over 50% say NO- they will not join; over 30% are leaning NO; less than 20% say Neutral or leaning yes; none say YES so far.

(Can't say the name of the website here since it is an org for ultimatemembers only.)


----------



## OneMoreTime

*UE Members are voting!*

It should be an interesting webinar tonight. So far their have been 108 unique votes and 31% are leaning toward no, and 55% are a straight no-


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

and determining number of properties >


Kagehitokiri2 said:


> The club saw 22,000 days of travel in 2009 by its more than 1,200 members





Kagehitokiri2 said:


> 11 own + 45 lease = 20,000 nights


----------



## TarheelTraveler

Anyone else think the Demeure website is slow and not very good?  Very odd considering their expertise is in technology and software design.

In looking at the Demeure website, I had a couple of additional questions:

Capacity - "Demeure guarantees that it will not exceed a Member-to-Home ratio, or Capacity Ratio, of 6-to-1 (based on a 60-day Membership Plan), which means the capacity committed is guaranteed."  Using a 60 day plan, doesn't that mean that is 360 days out of 365 days sold or 98.6%?  Normally, clubs will use a 30 day or 45 day membership plan equivalency, or occupancy between 50% and 80% (on the high side).  Isn't that even higher than UE was?  

Website says the following: "There are no agency fees, as would typically be the case if you were dealing with a rental agency."  A few questions down it says: "Here’s an example to illustrate how the formula works: Let’s say another Contributing Member stays at your property for two nights at an average nightly rate of $1,000. So your property “earns” $2,000. Of that total, the Club retains 25% ($500) to run the club. You get the remaining 75%, or $1,500, as a combination of accommodation credits and cash from the OCRF pool. The cash component may be as much as 25% of the total earned (in this case, $500), and you’ll receive the remainder in accommodation credits. This specific mix between cash and accommodation credits will be determined by your property’s relative value to club members, which is calculated by Demeure’s proprietary software based on popularity, seasonality, how far in advance time was contributed, and posted nightly rate. This is approximately 75% of the net rental income paid by the non-Member."  Doesn't that conflict or are they saying it is an exchange if you are trading with another member, but they get 25% if a non-member leases the property?

Website seems to indicate that they don't generally inspect properties, so how do they know that the accomodations are acceptable?  As an example, the better villa rental companies have at least inspected the properties, and most of the DCs have routine site visits and maintenance.

This seems to at least in part answer one of my earlier questions about why would anyone rent their place for 40%-50% off for prime properties or peak times.

"The Demeure system also allows you to set quotas for the amount of days you would like to provide to other Members during various seasons. For example, you might elect to keep two weeks during high season (mid-June to mid-September) available for the Club’s proprietary vacation rental agency or other rental agencies in order to maximize your rental income and provide the other two weeks to Demeure."  Basically, the website seems to indicate that as long as you contribute at least three weeks equivalency during the year, you can rent the rest of your weeks to a normal villa leasing agency to maximize your income.

Seems the 40%-50% discount is a little misleading, because presumably if you are getting exchanged accomodations at that discount, but you're obligated to provide time at that discount, it is a wash, right?  Is that just marketing or what am I missing? 

Someone posted this on their website which was interesting and didn't see a response yet:

"In terms of financial transparency, if Demeure is successful is getting enough UE members to join, is there ANY financial gain whatsoever involved for Tousignant, Keith, their various partnerships and interrelated companies, or the restructuring agent and his firm?  Any ‘commissions’ or ‘success fees’ paid to any parties?"


The Demeure system is a lot to absorb and hope the webinar is instructive.  Maybe they'll touch on some of those issues. I will give Demeure kudos for their board.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

at first glance, seems more complicated than TTT? (trying to obtain more profit?)


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

pete1801 said:


> There is a bulletin board for ultimate escapes members that is running a straw poll on who will join Demeure.
> 
> With over 800 registered users, so far 100 have voted



glad to hear there is a forum for discussion. 800 is quite impressive.


----------



## ClubsRDead

*Demeure Is A Non Starter*

Just put up the prices.

Thanks for the waste of time, Peter.

Hello BK Claim form and VRBO.


----------



## RoshiGuy

As an ex-HCC member, the offer made by Second Home (also available to UE members) at least seems to be reasonable. I need more information though before I decide to test the waters versus going the VRBO route.


----------



## UEgly

*WTF*

Am I reading the pricing wrong?  What happened to 40% (or %50) off?  How did that become 15% off inflated pricing?


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

from $61 > $7,650

assuming there is some honesty, seems like they do have some discounts at properties of rental companies. possibly some value there, at least at higher end.

not understanding how properties can range from $500/$1000 > $7000 though. im thinking those are some kind of mistake, like the one that says $1.

also, something wrong with pages now..



UEgly said:


> Am I reading the pricing wrong?  What happened to 40% (or %50) off?  How did that become 15% off inflated pricing?



http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1004472&postcount=21
worked out to 7.7% of non-UE offered "20% to 50% off"
looking now, seems like more (properties) than that.


----------



## ClubsRDead

The more I look, the madder I get.  Where is the ucc folks, isn't there job to help send us somewhere with as little pain as possible?  The lender must want these homes awfully bad, because at these rates, no one will use them.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

*Rates are not selling me...*

The only reasons I can imagine prepaying a large chunk of $$ for travel with the "use it or lose it" aspect is that (a) I get great rates and (b) I get services that I value.

I don't really need the services (hardly ever used any of them with T&H or UE).  I know how to rent cars, get plane tickets, book restaurants, get tee times or lift tickets, even go to the supermarket (anyway - we generally like to pick out our own wines and foods).

So it boils down to the sense that I am getting a significant bargin due to the buying power of what D calls "the community".

Based on these rates, I would not be.  Looking at the old elite properties - Maui is a nice condo, but over $2000 per night will get you lots of alternatives...  The Trump 2 bedroom units at $1600 to $1800 per night...???  I can do better at plenty of high-end properties.  Sorry, these rates don't make the grade, at least with me...

To take a very specific example - the Rock Club, Scottsdale...available on VRBO right now for $500/night.  D's "value" is $822 to $913.  Very much not a deal...   

And Paris is $1372 to the club versus the claimed $1615 "market" rate - that's a 15% discount, not 40%......

   

Anyone see this differently...???


----------



## aisa

A total sham. Save your money. My bet is better offers will be coming.

 The industry was never able to grow as advertised. The new members have not materialized as thought. That tells me that our "dues paying members" are worth a lot to any club that can come up with a real offer and wants to grow.

People willing to pay 15-40k per year to travel don't grow on trees. The UCC in this case should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## ClubsRDead

HereWeGoAgain said:


> And Paris is $1372 to the club versus the claimed $1615 "market" rate - that's a 15% discount, not 40%......



Forget that there is no 40% discount, that was a sales tactic.  Think about, and check out, all that you can get in Paris for $1300/night.  The options are endless.  Same applies to the Trumps and others you mentioned.  For $2K/night in this market, you can have anything you want.  There is no reason whatsoever to write these guys a check other than to fund their purchase commitment to Cap Source - and we all knew they were out of their mind on prices when this started.


----------



## Desties

aisa said:


> My bet is better offers will be coming.



Probably not from Demeure, though. They're in over their heads here. The 11 purchases needed to be done with its real estate arm, Peter said last night. They're working the numbers as best as they can to turn a profit, and it's just not happening. 

There ARE some good deals there. However, there are also some properties that are priced out of whack -- even for the purchased properties (where you think there would be more wiggle room on pricing vs. leases). 

The Turks & Caicos home is at Somerset, a great resort. There are 8 of the bedroom oceanfront units there, one is now owned by Demeure. Well, in the offseason (summer) you can stay in one of them for $1,350 -- and that's rack rate (check it, it's on the website). The Demeure unit begins HIGHER than that for club pricing, so it's not 40% off, but actually a premium). 

I don't have the inclination to begin pricing the Trump properties in NYC, but I'm guessing I would arrive at the same conclusion. Prepay for what? 

And since everything is priced at odd price points there will ALWAYS be money that expires at the end of the year -- unless one decides to pay the inflated rack rate for additional dates. 

I don't know what the situation will be next month if Demeure has to undo its purchases/leases (or if just the leases can be undone) but this all seems like it's being figured out on the fly (heck, even the CEO couldn't answer the cancellation policy question last night). Demeure may have its heart in the right place, but it's just not for me.


----------



## Leonardo

What a joke!  Interestingly, the non-UE properties that actually have prices listed seem to be much better deals than the UE properties... But really!  The Premiere Punta Mita house at $6500 a week???  The Signature Copper Mountain house at $11,600 a week????  The Signature Acqualina property at $16,660 a week??????  They must think that we are unable to do any research and compare market values!  If they get 5% of UE members to sign up, that will be amazing...


----------



## ClubsRDead

Didnt take long for Quintess to grab hold of the Demeure pricing problems (and likely all of the comments against them on both this site and the uemembers one) and send out a new offer taking direct shots at it.

While they didn't use that puke Steve Healy to send them out, we still know he is there....no thanks to you guys too.


----------



## Desties

ClubsRDead said:


> Didnt take long for Quintess to grab hold of the Demeure pricing problems (and likely all of the comments against them on both this site and the uemembers one) and send out a new offer taking direct shots at it.



From Q's email tonight:

_Given current sales momentum, we expect to shortly reach 100 Members in DUO at which time prices will be increasing._

Riiiight. 

Bold prediction #1 -- DUO doesn't get to 100, regardless of Demeure's fate.

Bold prediction #2 -- If I'm wrong about the first prediction, no one joins as #101, unless Q sticks to its original pricing. 

Gee, what happened to the pitch that there were 200 in the pipeline? 

Given DUO's crummy homes and Demeure's largely outlandish prices, now would be a novel time for a club to launch an entry level concept that's close to UE (and, no, DUO ain't it).


----------



## ClubsRDead

Desties said:


> From Q's email tonight:
> 
> 
> 
> Bold prediction #1 -- DUO doesn't get to 100, regardless of Demeure's fate.



That's a safe bet.  Remember who is "selling" their product - their pitch of "we're almost full, better hurry up" is no different than the tactics used by Healy and JT.  They did it on the assessment and made people feel like they were the only one that hadn't paid.  They did it during certain other times; hell they did it to my neighbor in July and they joined in August - AFTER friggin CRG was even hired.  These people are crooks - they took our data, even took our damn NYC penthouse for 50% of value.

A big "buyer beware" on this one.  Well - after the Demeure rates today, on BOTH of them.


----------



## SciFrog

So much negativity from the members, at least the one that posts here. 

I will not comment on Demeure offer because it seems complicated to evaluate, but regarding DUO, the main complain (justified IMHO) is the destinations. How about simply as them where the next destinations will be? Or even make them commit to a list if enough people joined. In my dealings with Q, I have always found them to be responsive and actually even address all my concerns on that front (like too many Cabo, or too little caribbean...). 

UE members seem to show no leadership and act very divided.


----------



## ClubsRDead

SciFrog said:


> UE members seem to show no leadership and act very divided.



Don't underestimate our membership, strength or the organization of the member groups.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

*Now Demeure (sort of) admits the rates are HIGH...*

From the latest email...

_"These rates compare favorably with typical market rates especially considering the personalized benefits provided by your escape planners and local host services."_

And this -

_"As a responsible member of our community we can't subsidize the costs of operating these properties by over promising unrealistically low rates."_

None of that sounds remotely like a discount from market rates - in fact quite the contrary.

So, with no recovery of prior losses, services I don't really need or want to pay for, and no savings on actual rental rates it is very unclear to me why Demeure thinks anyone will join.  Nonetheless, there will be some UE members who just go along I would guess...we will see.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

Desties said:


> And since everything is priced at odd price points there will ALWAYS be money that expires at the end of the year -- unless one decides to pay the inflated rack rate for additional dates.



Interesting point - price so that no combination of nights exactly uses the "travel commitment deposit" and everyone either (a) leaves unused funds to be taken by D or (b) has to overshoot their deposit and pay the rediculous "market rate" amounts set by D.

Nice.   :annoyed:


----------



## TarheelTraveler

So do you think the Demeure deal is dead?  What changes would it take to sway most UE members?


----------



## Leonardo

TarheelTraveler said:


> So do you think the Demeure deal is dead?  What changes would it take to sway most UE members?



Dead beyond resuscitation; rigor mortis has set in...


----------



## willmyclubmakeit

*resucitation*

it could in my opinion be saved but it would take a 40% chop off the prices they published and probably loosening the terms to 1 year commitment which would allow people to get hooked again and demeure to figure out in 6 months what its real estate portfolio should look like on a more long term basis.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

ClubsRDead said:


> Don't underestimate our membership, strength or the organization of the member groups.


wait, youre serious?


----------



## Jack1234

No way those prices make sense.  At the few locations I looked at they were at best 5-10 percent below "rack" rates and in some cases above.  There is just no incentive to pre-pay for the travel with nightly fees like this.  Don't see this winning anybody over.


----------



## ClubsRDead

*Demeure Pricing*

Is it me or are certain prices still not showing?  NYC 300, Naples, Delray, etc?


----------



## aisa

Desties said:


> Probably not from Demeure, though. They're in over their heads here. The 11 purchases needed to be done with its real estate arm, Peter said last night. They're working the numbers as best as they can to turn a profit, and it's just not happening.
> 
> I completely agree that the better offer will not come Demeure. They are to beholden to Cap Source to make any deal that makes sense for the members, even if they wanted too.
> 
> I do reiterate though, where the hell is the UCC in all of this ? At least with the T&H filings I may not have loved the outcome, but at least I felt like there was someone trying to do the right thing.


----------



## Desties

HereWeGoAgain said:


> From the latest email...
> 
> _"These rates compare favorably with typical market rates especially considering the personalized benefits provided by your escape planners and local host services."_



Bingo! 

Demeure can NOT offer the UE properties at a market discount because they have to turn a profit on them. In that sense, they will probably be HIGHER than market prices because many vacation home owners will rent out properties at lower prices when they'll otherwise go empty. 

This is why the original Demeure MAY work, but prepaying for the UE properties at market (or higher) will not.

I fleshed this out in a blog post this morning. 

This has been a royal waste of time, and if any other club or hospitality company wants to make a serious play for UE's assets and membership base the door is wide open again.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

OTOH If it was just the 4.3mm lease cost.. (plus others)

or see what capsource wants for bulk buy then do (varying) percent equity share across portfolio. Capsource and management could retain a little.

how many members on ucc? I'll try to dig it up later.


----------



## UESignature

*Quintess Duo*

Anyone know anything about the people running Quintess? Thoughts about their offer?


----------



## ClubsRDead

Desties you are 100% correct on the UE / Demeure pricing issue.  Taking this one step further, however, would be noting that the "club" discounts that Demeure publishes aren't even close to being discounts.  Not just to market rates, but to the ACTUAL homes they have listed.


----------



## ClubsRDead

UESignature said:


> Anyone know anything about the people running Quintess? Thoughts about their offer?



You are either 1) brand new here (well being it's your first post under that name, you are) and haven't read any emails, blogs, etc - in which case welcome aboard, or 2) want to see what we'll say by posting such a broad statement (which would typically imply you work for Quintess and want to get a feel for the current sentiment - and imply that we are stupid and can't see right through it), therefore 3)  In that case - their upper mgmt appears, at least through this process to not be trustworthy, capable of doing underhanded deals, taking advantage of situations (not always a bad thing, in this I'm referring to 1600 Broadway) and hiring persons with questionable reputations who have been known to deceive member customers.  And the offer?  The offer is both non-sustainable and laughable - but someone needs to find out since they keep sending emails out to us and wondering why we're not dashing to sign up.  In that case, just refer them back to the start of #3 and tell them the inventory represented for DUO also sucks.  Basically, the report could be along the lines of "if they need a bad business model and want to stay in crappy inventory at above market prices, or that isn't ready to be utilized yet - they can just sign up with Demeure."

If I am wrong in either 2 of of the above - so be it.  #3 still applies.


----------



## UESignature

*UESignature*

No tricks here.  We don't work for Quintess, maybe just two naive members who work hard and have enjoyed great vacations over the past 4 years.  We have tried to keep up with the news but its a full time job. 

We understand its the lesser of two evils - we are just trying to evaulate our options so we can make a decision and move on.


----------



## Desties

UESignature, there are two members here -- SciFrog and EOD -- from Quintess. One is on the resignation list and suing the company, but both generally have kind things to say about the company.

My beef with Quintess itself is that two years ago it roughly doubled what members were paying per night. To be fair, ER also instituted a dramatic rate hike for its earliest members that will be implemented over a few years and UE had last year's assessment (which was equivalent to a year of Quintess doubling its dues). In other words, all three of the largest non-equity clubs have pulled the pricing rug from the feet of its members.

Where I think Quintess is going too far is that it forces members to continue paying even after they are on the resignation list. If this was a matter of weeks or months, it wouldn't be a big deal but there have been folks on this resignation list for YEARS. They are allowed to sell those nights to fellow members, but who wants to buy EXTRA nights? 

As for DUO, do the math. The DUO dues for at least the Miami Beach and Stowe properties are MORE than it costs to book similar accomadations at those resorts. Quintess itself has great-looking homes, but DUO's properties are well short of the $2 million avg. they are promoting (don't believe me, I can get you the exact same layout as the Carlyle home in South Beach for about $700k). 

It's been said that DUO offers a golden opportunity to get MORE back on resignation, but they put up an even sweeter deal for Lusso members last year. In the end, DUO is an iffy product without paying the initial deposit -- so who the heck is going to pay six figures for that cover charge? And if they don't how will UE members get out? 

The best thing that can be said about Q is that it outlived UE. It's not a horrendous choice, and at least you won't be risking a six-figure deposit again (for DUO that is, unless you can get a sweetheart deal into Q itself). Still, if you decide to go with DUO or Quintess, try and see if they can add language into your contract that will allow you to be on the resignation list without paying. It's a terrible policy.


----------



## ClubsRDead

UESignature said:


> No tricks here.  We don't work for Quintess, maybe just two naive members who work hard and have enjoyed great vacations over the past 4 years.  We have tried to keep up with the news but its a full time job.
> 
> We understand its the lesser of two evils - we are just trying to evaulate our options so we can make a decision and move on.



It just seems unlikely to me that there are 2, much less ANY of us who as members of UE - and you say you were for 4 years - dealt with UR / UE in any manner whatsoever, and couldn't have some problem with our head of sales who made numerous misrepresentations now working for Q and trying to take your money - again.

And, frankly - "keeping up with the news" has been less than tedious because there has been none - certainly not from the company, CRG or UCC.  Even the mailings from BK Court have been infrequent and outdated, at best.

So it just doesn't add up to me.  If you're a member like us and that naive to the situation then all the power to you, God bless and just hand your cash over to Q, Demeure or even join both.  But in reality it just doesn't pass the "smell test."

I'm tempted to say "tell SH hello" but I suspect he's aware these posts already exist...


----------



## SciFrog

Desties said:


> UESignature, there are two members here -- SciFrog and EOD -- from Quintess. One is on the resignation list and suing the company, but both generally have kind things to say about the company.
> 
> My beef with Quintess itself is that two years ago it roughly doubled what members were paying per night. To be fair, ER also instituted a dramatic rate hike for its earliest members that will be implemented over a few years and UE had last year's assessment (which was equivalent to a year of Quintess doubling its dues). In other words, all three of the largest non-equity clubs have pulled the pricing rug from the feet of its members.
> 
> Where I think Quintess is going too far is that it forces members to continue paying even after they are on the resignation list. If this was a matter of weeks or months, it wouldn't be a big deal but there have been folks on this resignation list for YEARS. They are allowed to sell those nights to fellow members, but who wants to buy EXTRA nights?
> 
> As for DUO, do the math. The DUO dues for at least the Miami Beach and Stowe properties are MORE than it costs to book similar accomadations at those resorts. Quintess itself has great-looking homes, but DUO's properties are well short of the $2 million avg. they are promoting (don't believe me, I can get you the exact same layout as the Carlyle home in South Beach for about $700k).
> 
> It's been said that DUO offers a golden opportunity to get MORE back on resignation, but they put up an even sweeter deal for Lusso members last year. In the end, DUO is an iffy product without paying the initial deposit -- so who the heck is going to pay six figures for that cover charge? And if they don't how will UE members get out?
> 
> The best thing that can be said about Q is that it outlived UE. It's not a horrendous choice, and at least you won't be risking a six-figure deposit again (for DUO that is, unless you can get a sweetheart deal into Q itself). Still, if you decide to go with DUO or Quintess, try and see if they can add language into your contract that will allow you to be on the resignation list without paying. It's a terrible policy.



DUO first round of destinations isn't that great, but don't forget, these properties are paid without member deposits. Anyone reasonable would ask DUO what their FUTURE destinations would be. 

Desties, what do you really want?
Your deposits are gone and likely the dues paid to UE were too low to sustain the model long term. The idea of a DC is that they buy tte home to protect you for future increase of market rates. Well it doesn't really work right now because market rates are so low. It will change one (distant) day.

EOD is suing Q for a very specific and personal problem: Q changed the holiday rotation scheme in a way that benefited the vast majority of members but not EOD as he lost a seconday summer/spring holiday that was very important for him. That change however was a big plus for me as they eliminated the secondary holidays...


----------



## Desties

SciFrog said:


> DUO first round of destinations isn't that great, but don't forget, these properties are paid without member deposits. Anyone reasonable would ask DUO what their FUTURE destinations would be.



The club is already on the record as saying that they are exploring ski properties, and then looking at Hawaii, Orlando, and Tuscany.

Why should that matter, though? The current offer -- as presented -- isn't going to nab more than 100 ex-UE members (if that), so the club won't be adding these properties. DUO's first impression was enough. It didn't impress me. It hasn't impressed you, if you're preaching patience for the second wave of homes that may never come.

Demeure spent $14 million on an 11-property set that blows DUO's 14 properties out of the water and even THAT has been poorly received. 

What do I want? Honestly, I was hoping for a hospitality heavy to seize the opportunity and buy UE out of bankruptcy. It didn't happen, obviously. However, the DUO and Demeure offers are WORSE than nothing at all because I -- and I'm sure every other UE member -- can do better booking piecemeal vacations. EE had an impressive presentation and slight discounts, but not enough to sway me and ease my concerns (though I understand why EE and AK can only go so far given their equity models). 

I expected too much at the beginning. But now I'm also a realist in what's available outside of the DC space.


----------



## willmyclubmakeit

*future*

I had also hoped a savior would appear but I'm moving on (at least for now).  I booked two ski vacations in the past 24 hours, each using slope-side (1 or both maybe ski-in/out) properties.  Average nightly cost for March time period was $400.   Both of these properties are nice but I doubt as good as UE and both are smaller (one is 2 bedroom/2 bath and the other is 3 bedroom/3 bath).   I also looked at an incredible 5 bedroom, 6 bath place at Steamboat that is ski in/out and much nicer than mountaineer--and it could be had for less than $1000/night for spring break.  I found replacement Xmas week homes in the USVI in a nice resort for less than $1,000/night.  Given the request to pre-pay for a year, lock in for 2 years, be restricted to their homes, and pay the posted prices on Demeure, I have to move on unfortunately.  I still like Q but Duo's homes are of no appeal and I'm not going to float another large deposit in a non-equity club.   Maybe AK or EE would have worked but I'm just not willing to write an upfront or even annual check of that amount for the # of nights offered knowing there are always transition challenges when places are already booked by members.  I think its time to stop posting and wish people well--until a better solution turns up.  too bad our club did not make it.  It was fun while it lasted and we have some great memories which are priceless.


----------



## SciFrog

Sounds like the prudent approach. Just keep in mind these market rates won't last forever. And prime locations like Vail have not gone down in price. Actually we are finding higher prices than last year...


----------



## ClubsRDead

willmyclubmakeit said:


> and we have some great memories which are priceless.



Yep - besides the photo's, who all can say they have multiple claim forms in a bankruptcy process for doing the same stupid thing more than once?  THAT is priceless...

To the point above, these "market rates" don't have to last forever.  It's a wonderful time to buy vacation / resort property and provided you buy right, you can carry right, rent right and sell without pressure.

JT should have learned this as well as anyone.  He didn't exactly overpay for TH, but he should have paid his debt down and made more frugal business decisions prior to letting that loan balance balloon while the real estate market cratered.

The reason Demeure rates are so ugly is because the values assigned to the houses by CS are.  The deal will never work not just because their whole premise is flawed, but because bringing in the UE homes is a mistake.  He'd be net cash positive if he'd have just sent me an email and asked me to try it out for $2500.  1200 X $2500 would have been a lot better than where he's going to be.  I think the other club trying to get 500 for $5000 has this figured out - $2.5MM of free cash, no inventory, debt or overhead.


----------



## UESignature

Are you talking about Boundless Journey 500 for $5000 each?


----------



## Northof49

The Demeure offer is way over priced as we travelled for under $300.00 US/night per year based on 28 travel days used at Legacy Premier members.  Now they want over $700.00/night??  When we joined, PE boasted the average home value was $1M, which dropped to $800K in their later advertising.  Those same homes are now closer to $300K to $500K/ea maybe.  The math doesn't add up no matter how you look at it.  I think even Signature is getting ripped while Elite may be close, not sure.  I still think that if there are enough club members left who wanted to start a realistic, equity owned club, it could be done with little or no debt.  It would take some good people with business and legal and property knowledge and the new club could pick properties in the best area's for great pricing.  In all honesty, this is the only way any of us will ever have a chance of seeing any returns on our lost money is if we buy low in the real estate market now and stick with it and enjoy the investment for 10+ years before we decide to sell out.  No one is going to ride in and be the white knight and give anyone any money back, it's gone.  We need to stand up, walk away and start fresh and leave CS and the rest of the crooks so the value the membership did add to the bankruptcy deal is gone and CS can take a further bath for not taking us seriously from the start.


----------



## TarheelTraveler

http://www.destinationclubnews.com/News_Deadline_For_Demeure_Transition_Extended.php

"The expedited process has allowed Demeure the ability to defer the deadline for Ultimate Escapes members transitioning to their club by an additional week until November 12, 2010."

Based on this, the drop of the 15% price increase, and recent emails providing additional information, clearly Demeure is having some issues winning the UE membership over.  Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now?  In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?


----------



## ClubsRDead

TarheelTraveler said:


> Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now?  In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?



Wouldn't it be most prudent for members to NOT answer these types of questions in too much detail on public forum?  

1.  Why would you report your specifif thoughts, as a UE member, to other clubs or an AK member directly?
2.  If you say "oh, this is great," Demeure has no incentive to continue to develop what obviously is a broken process, or
3.  You say "these are still horrible, no way will I join" and you continue to get solicited by other clubs with their "better" offers.

I think, personally, Demeure needs to step it up and demonstrate how their "model is superior."  They have failed to do so thus far.  Are they headed that way - maybe.  

At the end of the day this is going to be a personal decision for each.  Some, like me, won't do business with them - regardless of their rates - just because of their McGrath et al connection and inability to be forthright about it.  Quintess - same thing (acquiring UE sales staff who picked my pocket and got paid handsomely to do so).

I'd rather give more $/night elsewhere knowing that someone other than those guys stood to gain financially from being involved.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

TarheelTraveler said:


> Is it too little too late or are they getting some traction now?  In other words, execution of the UE offer may not have been ideal, but is the evolving offer a good one and a sign of a genuine effort to make the members feel like their concerns were taken into account?



*Too little....too late.*

The new posing of prices is amazingly messed up - the same properties repeated multiple times for the same dates.  I don't know why they didn't proof it before posting it because it doesn't build confidence in their ability to manage (even a price list).

Even with that (minor??) glitch forgiven, the real issue continues to be pricing.  Why join Demeure to pay at or above market rates..???  They say "it's the services and the certainty.."

Well, I have found that, with care, one can *rent through an agent *like the Parker Company (http://www.parkervillas.com/) for Italian villas [many far superior to the DC industry's inventory - even ER's] or Wimco (http://www.wimco.com/) for the Caribbean [with a ditto on quality], with none of the issues that D says to worry about.

Or *book direct *- Maui, 3 BR penthouse unit same as the Elite UE unit - available on the property web site for as little as $1,095 per night for a one week stay in February (admittedly with "limited housekeeping"---Oh heck, I can live with that...).  Available from Demure for $1,650 with a claimed $2,800 "value".  By the way - the property offers another 20% off for using an AMEX card.....     

And, of course there is the off-discussed *VRBO* alternative.  So, again, why prepay, lose unused funds, etc with Demeure..??


----------



## TarheelTraveler

Hey I was just curious.  Feel free to disregard my post.  I've put my thoughts/questions on here to be helpful, but if they're not, please disregard.  Hoping for the best resolution for UE members.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

ClubsRDead said:


> 3. You say "these are still horrible, no way will I join" and you continue to get solicited by other clubs with their "better" offers.



are you saying you dont think current DCs can improve? while i might be about that negative, im not sure im there yet. at this point my hope is for the DC model which i describe as "exchange free" rather than the DC industry. i think its unfortunate there isnt something in between rocksure/luxus and AK. also odd EE lonestar hasnt launched.

*TarheelTraveler* has voiced his agreement re hiring practices. im with you too - dont get it, like many things in DC industry.

would you consider a higher end club again in future if it seemed sound? thats something *SciFrog* has talked about.

re rentals - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=871962&postcount=33
DC trials are basically rentals too, certainly great deals.


----------



## Northof49

I think DC's can improve but only as a member owned and operated club.  Putting your money and faith into someone else's hands with no disclosure is a disaster that all of us agree we should have known better about.  The sweetheart promises at 'the end' when you sell out higher than what you paid in for hooked many.  Was it greed or somehing else but all of us gladly, freely and willingly gave cash to strangers to take care of us and treat us like royalty.  The talk of 800 members is huge and we wouldn't need many to start a new club debt free if everyone ws willing to live within their means and accept great homes in great locations but maybe a bit limited for the start up.  My proposal would be sell shares based on weeks worth of vacationing.  If 100 Premier members each put in $60K ($20K per week of vacation) that would raise $6M in capital.  This could by 8 fantastic homes at an average of $750,000.00 ea ( none of us stayed in any property close to that value I would guess) which is probably high in some markets so 8 homes is probably low.  Base occupancy of 66% per year gives you about 32 weeks or 3 weeks per member (also gives 2 weeks/year for planned maintenance).  I don't know the average monthly operating costs but if anyone does, simply take those, plus a local host and divide by 20 days (2/3 occupancy base) and you have the monthly opearting costs.  Add a percentage to cover head office, legal and staff expenses plus a bit for a small profit.  We were about $300.00/night all in with Premier Leagcy based on 28 days per year so based on this number, that could raise $67,200.00/year per residence.  Multiply that by 8 is $537,600.00 so is this enough to carry and cover a club with newer and better properties where new memories can be made and the horrors of the past forgotten??  I would propose other idea's such as the member choses to put their money in the type of location they most prefer.  Ski, Beach, City, Golf.  The houses are bought to support those area's as the money comes in so members aren't compensating properties they will never use.  Signature and Elite could do the same seperate or together but would recommend every club mirrors proprties to reduce expences, I used Premier as that is what I am familiar with and is also the least expensive.  I would also let any level book into any other club if there was open space within a 6 month period but at that clubs nightly rate.  The last thing is this is the only way any UE member will get any money back in the end is to buy into a low cost property portfolio and riding it out for 5-10+ years and let the value grow.  Sadly, no matter what every individual does, none of us are getting anything back from the failed UE experiment.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

if enough members approached second home destinations, and capsource was open to leasing, maybe there is a potential discussion there.

of course demeure should also be talking lease only...

at $1mm equity level, if enough members approached EE (lonestar) or luxus (talked about starting US club) maybe there is a potential discussion there as well. if there was an EE (lonestar) deal at that level, and theyre brining people into regular EE right now, maybe they could pick up some of the depressed higher value properties as well. and of course their lease/debt targets allow a lot of flexibility.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/ultimateescapes/docs/deb_1-10-bk-12915_404.pdf
some interesting stuff, including property values etc, and 3 blacked out non-CS owned properties...??

more UCC fun times


----------



## ClubsRDead

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> http://docs.bmcgroup.com/ultimateescapes/docs/deb_1-10-bk-12915_404.pdf
> some interesting stuff, including property values etc, and 3 blacked out non-CS owned properties...??
> 
> more UCC fun times



Those are more than likely the 3 homes that Rich Keith has mysteriously "removed" from the debtor portfolio and is already renting out to jump start his new little venture - "PE2 - The Return of The Losses."

Let's hope you are right and the UCC gives a damn.  More than likely, not...


----------



## Desties

For those out of the Demeure-UE loop, the latest email shows at least some warming up to reality. 

Demeure will begin considering annual travel committments below member-specific UE levels after November 12.

The plan appears to be to give those who agree to five years of putting up the same amount of annual dues into the Demeure kitty to have 2-year priority booking and receive the 6 months of travel credits originally promised. 

After that, the gate will likely open for those who want to put up less. 

I definitely wasn't going to go the first route, but I'll listen to the offer post-Nov. 12. I still think that the nightly rates are too high, so something has to be done there. Adding insult to injury, it will be nearly impossible to consume all of your annual credits in a year (you'll either have credits left over or have to pay the non-club premium on top of rates that are already high).

Really Demeure. The least you can do is offer 10% or 20% of the travel budget to roll over to the following year. Not doing so makes anyone who takes the club up on this offer either stupid or a glutton for punishment. 

As for the plan to go in with less, if too many of the perks are gone (advance booking, travel credits) I don't see the incentive. Waiving the $2,500 entry fee (that I doubt few if anyone has actually paid) isn't enough. 

Here's another thought to improve the Demeure model: Offer property stays for vacant nights within a month or 3 month period at half of the club rates! It's just common sense. It's what a property owner would do and Demeure can be called many things, but an outlet for travel deals is certainly not it.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

didnt they specifically mention some kind of last minute thing in their marketing to owners/companies?



Kagehitokiri2 said:


> more UCC fun times





ClubsRDead said:


> Let's hope you are right and the UCC gives a damn.  More than likely, not...


actually they dropped one of the two law firms, reminiscent of >


Kagehitokiri2 said:


> what the heck is UCC counsel doing.. (appear withdraw etc)


----------



## ClubsRDead

Desties said:


> For those out of the Demeure-UE loop, the latest email shows at least some warming up to reality.



But, is it a better offer?  I'm not so sure.  At a minimum, it illustrates our lack of interest thus far.

Most of their "answers" are inspecific and incomplete, at best.  The math makes no sense.  And they are obviously having a hard time accounting for the multiple travel deals that were mushed together from UR, TH and PE.  And, the rates still suck.

Two answers stick out - telling how VRBO has non-verified photos when they list some of the same homes, and identical photos.  My personal favorite is "Finally we would encourage you to request financial documentation in your consideration of membership with any club. Demeure has been fully vetted by CapSource and our diligence is thorough."  Well, have any of us seen their financials?  And more importantly, is telling us that we're getting a model built by McGrath that is considered solid by Cap Source helping them any??

Most would think that Cap Source being the lender to Quintess, ER, PE, etc would pretty well "vett" anything to get them out of this mess -- and I doubt Demeure does it.  How strong is a CS recommendation?  They're the one's that made this ridiculous loan in the first place.


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

that is kind of unintentionally funny theyre referencing CS - theyre high yield, high risk. why would members of a club want risk?

not to mention anything that is nonequity is a winner to CS.


----------



## ClubsRDead

Well another Demeure communication adding another week to the "closing."  In typical JT fashion they have crafted the message by creating the allure of false demand - just like Jim did with the assessment "due to overwhelming response."  They're also giving us the "opportunity" to be a**-raped by purchasing the UE homes they are leasing from Cap Source at abnormally high prices much more than they were offered during the auction process.  On this note they elude to their being "multiple interested parties" and I find that hard to believe that anyone would buy something for 2-3 times retail.  This just keeps getting better and better, you'd think they would know that we've all given our money to the kings of spin for so long that we're not inclined to do it again, especially just to line the pockets of others and get no real economic benefit ourselves.


----------



## OneMoreTime

ClubsRDead said:


> Well another Demeure communication adding another week to the "closing."  In typical JT fashion they have crafted the message by creating the allure of false demand - just like Jim did with the assessment "due to overwhelming response."  They're also giving us the "opportunity" to be a**-raped by purchasing the UE homes they are leasing from Cap Source at abnormally high prices much more than they were offered during the auction process.  On this note they elude to their being "multiple interested parties" and I find that hard to believe that anyone would buy something for 2-3 times retail.  This just keeps getting better and better, you'd think they would know that we've all given our money to the kings of spin for so long that we're not inclined to do it again, especially just to line the pockets of others and get no real economic benefit ourselves.



Agree that this is right out of JT's playbook. How many extensions did it take for JT to close on the TH deal....

It just goes to reinforce the fact that Demeure needs OUR money to buy or pay the carry on THEIR new assets.

Odds are they will get another extension that will go beyond the DIP final funding date....


----------



## TarheelTraveler

*UE*

Cleaning out my in box and came across this email from UE:

"RECEIVE ONE YEAR OF TRAVEL WITH NO DUES WHEN YOU JOIN ULTIMATE ESCAPES!
Dear ,

2009 is coming to a close. Ultimate Escapes leveraged the soft real estate market and abundance of opportunities to enhance the Member experience and grow the Club! 

Here’s a recap of our top accomplishments in 2009: 

1.
 Acquired Private Escapes, the 3rd largest destination club—adding 49 new residences, 16 additional destinations, and 387 Club Members

2.
 Became the first publicly-traded luxury Destination Club in the world (ticker symbol: UEI) 

3.
 Added NEW RESIDENCES and DESTINATIONS!

•
 Telluride, Colorado—definitive agreement to purchase 3 Elite ski residences 

•
 Alys Beach, Florida—made available new destination on the Florida Gulf Coast

•
 Capella Pedregal, Cabo San Lucas—reciprocal use of 3 and 4-bedroom villas in this exclusive resort


4.
 Delivered record numbers of Member experiences—with over 6,800 trips fulfilled for our Members in 2009

5.
 Introduced the Reciprocity Program allowing all Members, regardless of their primary club, to utilize any of our 130 homes across our 3 clubs

6.
 Launched a brand new Members-Only Website with all new features to better showcase reservation availability and to provide home details

7.
 Became the market leader in the industry, setting a new standard with full public financial disclosure, largest membership growth in one year by any destination club, and expansion in a time of industry contraction



We're excited to present you with the Best Offer of the Year...Join Now and Get One Year of Travel with No Dues!

CALL ME TODAY TO LEARN MORE ABOUT HOW YOU AND YOUR FAMILY CAN ENJOY ULTIMATE ESCAPES MEMBERSHIP!

Warm regards, "

Just craziness.


----------



## ClubsRDead

Let me guess, you received this from Mr. Healy, or Mr Tousignant??


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> re demeure - wasnt TTT person talking about selling on DC4MS? also, one key world residence owners might be another good target.
> 
> interesting article re homeaway >
> http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2010/03/05/the-100-million-revenue-club-homeawaycom/
> raised $405mm, revenue $120mm
> 
> http://www.homeexchange.com/ exchange only



http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/29/google-ventures-invest-in-homeaway-at-1-4-billion-valuation/
says homeaway has raised $504mm and that google has just bought out some shareholders



> ...estimated revenue to be in the $200 million range, with $70 million or so in profit... [35%]
> 
> ...540,000 paid vacation rental home listings throughout 120 countries...


http://www.statesman.com/business/homeaway-aims-for-major-league-splash-with-superbowl-214832.html - 2010 superbowl ad campaign

...

maybe demeure is hoping to be acquired?

if they were not looking to be acquired, they could theoretically offer UE members a "regular" equity stake in the company as well. but the dropping of equity in properties would seem to suggest what they would think of that.


----------



## TarheelTraveler

*Deadline Extended to November 19, 2010*

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Extends_Transition_Deadline_To_November_19.php

"For the past several weeks, Demeure Founder Peter Schwartz has devoted all of his time to one-on-one conference calls with Ultimate Escapes members, detailing Demeure's unique brand of destination club. In order for the club to complete these conference calls, Demeure has extended the transition deadline for Ultimate Escapes members until November 19, 2010. 

"Over the past week, I personally have made several hundred calls and replied to what seems to be thousands of messages from Ultimate Escapes members," Schwartz told us. "We are inherently different from every other destination club, so it has taken some time to fully deliver our message and value proposition, but the great thing is that we've managed to refine our communications and convey that to hundreds of members." 

"The great thing about Demeure is that communication is a two-way street. While we have been hard at work outlining our model and the benefits of joining, we are also listening to Ultimate Escapes members to get their first hand perspective on what they are looking for from Demeure. We have taken their candid insight and implemented it into our design in a number of areas." 

"Many members are unsure how much they will travel with Demeure. With a collection of former Ultimate Escapes properties joining our already established portfolio of contributed homes, we believe members will want to travel more than they ever did at Ultimate Escapes. Because of this feedback from members, we are allowing for a one time ability for members to decrease their travel commitment by 10% or increase as much as they wish." 

"Similarly, many Ultimate Escapes members have already booked new travel plans to replace the ones they lost following the bankruptcy announcement and don't want to pay again immediately. Our solution is allowing members the ability make April 1, 2011 as their anniversary date by committing to paying 50% now with the balance due on April 1, 2011." 

"Finally, for Ultimate Escapes members only, we are waiving our 5% surcharge for unaccompanied guest use, which will allow members the ability to more fully utilize their membership credits by letting friends and family the ability to travel the Demeure way....""


----------



## ClubsRDead

Yep, that's what they sent to us members, another extension.  Which means no one has signed up.  Which isn't exactly surprising...


----------



## OneMoreTime

*3rd extension? 3rd time a charm!*

CRD, you are too cynical. It takes time to negotiate and cut individual deals to try and match what JT and RK had given. That way those few that do go with the plan will have negotiated the best deals....

for themselves, for as long as Demeure might last.


----------



## brit007

Which might be till the 19th November


----------



## TarheelTraveler

*Quintess/DUO vs. Demeure*

I guess things are getting testy between Quintess/DUO and Demeure:

http://demeure.com/news/demeure/duo-by-quintess.html


----------



## TarheelTraveler

*New Press Release*

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-secure-member-funds-in-escrow-108584824.html

Demeure "...today announced it has engaged an independent escrow agent to protect members' funds. 

"This is a critical next step in our continuing effort to promote a higher ethical standard, transparency, and legal and fiscal responsibility into an industry that has been beset by less than stellar performance in these areas," said Peter Schwartz, Chairman and CEO of Demeure.  "Beyond being representative of the principles upon which Demeure was founded, I believe it will raise the bar in the industry for stewardship and governance, and provide members with the security they deserve."  

The purpose of the escrow arrangement is twofold:  to ensure that members' funds, which are paid in advance for travel for the year ahead, are indeed appropriated for that travel; and, to make sure that members' funds are returned to them in the unlikely event that Demeure ceases operations.   

Demeure selected International Escrow Services (IES), of Atlanta, Georgia to serve as the company's escrow agent.  IES was selected by Demeure because of their specialized knowledge and experience in the vacation industry.  A part of the law firm of Schreeder, Wheeler and Flint, LLP (SWF), the combined companies have served as escrow agent for over 100,000 timeshare closings and handled over one billion dollars in escrowed funds, including the Starwood Vacation Ownership timeshare sales since 2001.  IES will provide detailed and individualized accounting of each member's transactions, and all activities will be audited annually by a certified public accounting firm."

I _applaud_ any increased transparency, member protection and accountability in the industry, and, therefore, give kudos to Demeure.  However, at the same time, I'm frankly bothered by the claim that this is the first for the industry and worthy of a press release.  Although there have been loads of problems in the industry on the non-equity side, I believe a number of equity clubs have had similar arrangements for years with respect to member funds.


----------



## travels1

Does Rob McGrath work as a "consultant" for this escrow agent?


----------



## TarheelTraveler

More of the same:

http://www.destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Secures_Membership_Funds_In_Escrow.php

"If, for some reason Demeure ceases to operate, escrowed funds are returned to members and not used to pay Demeure's creditors. There isn't another club in our industry that can make the same statement" 

"I don't know how else to say it, but we are the only destination club where your membership funds truly are safe," Schwartz added."

That simply is not correct.  Like I said earlier, there are equity clubs out there that provide the same protection.



http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ase-of-ultimate-escapes-assets-108970854.html

"...today announced that it has reached an agreement with Ultimate Escapes CapSource to amend the asset purchase agreement and waive certain conditions to closing 6 days ahead of the November 24th deadline. Former members of Ultimate Escapes who join the Demeure community can be assured of a trusted home for their travel experience.

Demeure will be proceeding with the purchase of all the original assets listed in its court approved Asset Purchase Agreement and will also purchase an additional property in Scottsdale, Arizona. The Purchase Agreement also includes intellectual property and other critical Ultimate Escapes assets, to ensure a smooth transition of UE members to Demeure.

The Asset Purchase Agreement in its amended form represents the conclusion of the agreement between the Estate and Demeure. Demeure will also be offering employment to key Ultimate Escapes employees commencing on November 24th.

"Ultimate Escapes members have been put into an extremely stressful financial and emotional position throughout the bankruptcy process. It has been our goal to ensure their needs are at the forefront of our work," said Peter Schwartz, Chairman and CEO of Demeure.  "Through the incredible efforts of our employees we have been able to convey our unique value proposition to members, which involves putting their own properties to work within the Demeure community. Our direct communication efforts with them has led to over 150 unique requests from members looking to participate in the property purchase program." 

It had become clear throughout the Ultimate Escapes bankruptcy process and Demeure transition that members have individual needs requiring personalized attention. The waiver of conditions by Demeure and its commitment to proceed with the original Asset Purchase Agreement ensures members will have ample opportunity to complete commitment agreements, participate in the property purchase program and reservation lottery throughout the months of November and December. 

"CRG is pleased that the conditions to close on November 24th have been waived and that CapitalSource Bank continues to work cooperatively with Demeure to reach a successful result based on the current number of property purchase inquiries," said Stephen Gray of CRG Partners."

What's the skinny on this?  Was another potential buyer out there lurking so Demeure waived the conditions early?  Was the support not there to meet the conditions?  A combination or something else all together?


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## AKTHUE

Here's my gut feeling about the announcement they made today - and it's a bit of an enlightenment to me. I've kept wondering why it appears that Demeure is paying too much for properties, and why this makes sense.

The key feature for how Demeure operates is that they own no or very few properties - most of the properties are owned by members, and Demeure really makes its money as an agent mediating between owners and users of properties. 

The key to Demeure isn't the few properties they will own, but whether they can get a good chunk of the UE properties bought by someone who will then commit them to use by Demeure. They must have a strong feeling that they've gotten a critical mass of UE members who have indicated they'd buy a home and contribute it to Demeure use for a minimum of 5 years, that they are willing to commit to go ahead.


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## TarheelTraveler

Interesting point, AKTHUE.  I'm sure CapSource is thrilled to unload as many houses as possible, since the sales price to members I would think would be much better than some mass liquidation of the portfolio of houses.


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## Kagehitokiri2

OneMoreTime said:


> ...based on the current number of property purchase inquiries...


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## ClubsRDead

I will comment on both of the above postings here...

Most of the Demeure homes are NOT in fact, owned by members.  In reality, the majority of them which they have listed are owned by Capital Source.

Secondly, Cap Source has not "unloaded" the homes, they are leasing a majority of them to Demeure, or planned too - and the published sales prices are much higher than the listed stalking horse prices during the auction.

No one is buying this bag of garbage...


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## AKTHUE

ClubsRDead said:


> Most of the Demeure homes are NOT in fact, owned by members.  In reality, the majority of them which they have listed are owned by Capital Source.



In Demeure's existing offerings, prior to the UE transaction, Demeure owned either zero or very little real estate. The properties they made available were either owned by members, or were leased, often in a way that made Demeure not much more than a rental agent (the rental charge set by the property owner with Demeure getting a portion).

Demeure would like to replicate that model for the UE offering, but to get in the door with CapitalSource they had to commit to buy some homes, and then they essentially negotiated a lease with option to buy for a bunch more - and would like to get UE members to agree to buy those and put them in the pool for 5 years. It's hard to see why that makes economic sense for a member.


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## ClubsRDead

It makes absolutely no sense.  The rhetoric they are spewing about having phenomenal success in getting members enrolled, and the "overwhelming interest in purchasing homes by UE members" is hogwash.  We've all been to these crap boxes, are well aware of the deferred maintenance issues on many (most go back to the TH days) and certainly wouldn't overpay for them.


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## TarheelTraveler

Demeure timeline of events:

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Sets_Timeline_of_Upcoming_Events.php

"...Those interested in purchasing one of the residences formerly attached to Ultimate Escapes must register their interest to purchase by this deadline. Purchase prices begin at roughly $250,000 and go as high as $3.5 million for Villa Eternidad, a four bedroom home spanning over 5,000 square feet in Cabo San Lucas...."


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## Kagehitokiri2

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Closes_On_Select_Assets_From_Ultimate_Escapes_Estate.php



> Demeure is scheduled to formally announce later today that they have completed the acquisition of choice assets from the now bankrupt Ultimate Escapes and will be resuming full operations on December 4, 2010.
> 
> Demeure now owns 11 former Ultimate Escapes residences and could own up to 15 as the club is waiting for four additional properties to clear title. The rest of the former Ultimate Escapes property portfolio is available for lease to Demeure, and the final list of homes will be released in the middle of December. "There are a handful of properties that are going back to CapitalSource...ones that classically have low popularity and high operating costs or are in destinations where we can get comparable properties for lower rates."
> 
> Demeure waived select closing conditions on the acquisition of these Ultimate Escapes residences...bringing all of the *Ultimate Escapes members with homes they wish to contribute* to the club set up in the Demeure system. The firm commitment deadline for Ultimate Escapes members transitioning to Demeure concludes at the end of the week.


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## OneMoreTime

*Time will tell*

I can't wait to see the real numbers as Demeure claims to be a transparent entity. I have heard that less than 100 Member's have sent in a check and spoke with a Member who was able to negotiate a commitment with was only 25% of their UE dues ( now paying well under 5K!!). 

Given those data points it is not hard to see why Demeure had to drop the 12MM commitment- Good luck to all involved.


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## travels1

So less than 100 members sign up with Demeure.  Demeure takes on somewhere in the neighborhood of less than 20 of UE's properties and yet the KC staff is still working at nearly 100% of its employees.  No wonder the DIP funds ran out so quickly.  Can't seem to wonder how those salaries can be justified or for that matter, what they are all doing 8 hours a day 5 days a week.  Can somebody help me understand this?


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## Kagehitokiri2

what would have been so hard about doing an equity club when demeure even originally planned it?

although i hear there are other nonequity clubs launching...

sigh.

***

http://www.bmcgroup.com/restructuring/GenInfo.aspx?ClientID=255 >
http://ultimateescapes.creditorinfo.com/default.aspx committee of unsecured creditors site i just noticed

***

the $12mm required figure is just another example of game playing. god only knows.

the numbers >

with 15% increase - 64% required
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1003384&postcount=42

without 15% increase - 74% required
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1004362&postcount=11


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## OneMoreTime

*Another DIP*

I can't quite follow who will pay the 1MM of December expenses, but Cap Source is funding it- ( http://www.bmcgroup.com/restructuring/DocView.aspx?ClientID=255&DocNumber=472&CaseNo=1-10-bk-12915) It appears the closing has been extended to 12/20. 

Is Demeure going to have to pay for this "extension" due to their inablity to close- What a mess- what a surprise....not.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*holiday travel*

it would be great to hear from those that joined Demeure about their experience.  It would also be good to hear from Duo members and those moving to AK via the settlement on their experiences.  This input could influence some decisions for those of us who have not picked a team yet.


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## Kagehitokiri2

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Updates_Members_On_Ultimate_Escapes_Situation.php



> Nine former Ultimate Escapes properties and *139 Ultimate Escapes members* have since joined the Demeure family according to Dan Nedelko, Demeure's Marketing Director.
> 
> *Demeure will not be leasing or purchasing* the remainder of the former Ultimate Escapes properties outside of the nine already acquired.
> 
> The nine properties purchased by Demeure will be available for sale to members at the same price received from CapitalSource...While the majority of the former Ultimate Escapes residences will not be included in the Demeure catalogue, over 250 properties are still available to members procured through more traditional channels.
> 
> ...*Some former travel planners* will remain with Demeure, working from "virtual offices" offsite.
> 
> Demeure told us that they will soon be introducing a "*try before you buy*" option



some good news.


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## AKTHUE

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Updates_Members_On_Ultimate_Escapes_Situation.php
> 
> some good news.



Not sure there's much good news. Demeure bought 9 properties and no leases after sending prospective members price lists on dozens of UE properties. If they got 139 members, where is the availability?

The discussion of closing the Kansas City office fails to mention that they laid off all the UE employees except 2.


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## TarheelTraveler

Sorry, but I'm going to rant here.  How is anyone supposed to have any faith or trust in Demeure when this is totally different than what Demeure had promised in so many communications with UE members?  And how about all the press releases?  Furthermore, they had specifically stated to at least one person that they thought high 100s of UE members had joined Demeure.  139 is not high hundreds unless you think 25-35% off should be close enough.  

One of the real advantages to a properly run DC is that you know exactly how each house will be amenitized before walking in the door.  Sure Demeure may have access to over 250 properties, but ask them if they've ever been to those properties, much less gotten them standardized across the "portfolio."

Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, it is a shame that CapSource took this bid.  It seems they've significantly impaired one of the few main assets of UE - the members.


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## AKTHUE

TarheelTraveler said:


> Sorry, but I'm going to rant here.  How is anyone supposed to have any faith or trust in Demeure when this is totally different than what Demeure had promised in so many communications with UE members?  And how about all the press releases?  Furthermore, they had specifically stated to at least one person that they thought high 100s of UE members had joined Demeure.  139 is not high hundreds unless you think 25-35% off should be close enough.
> 
> One of the real advantages to a properly run DC is that you know exactly how each house will be amenitized before walking in the door.  Sure Demeure may have access to over 250 properties, but ask them if they've ever been to those properties, much less gotten them standardized across the "portfolio."
> 
> Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, it is a shame that CapSource took this bid.  It seems they've significantly impaired one of the few main assets of UE - the members.



+1 Agree with everything you've said.

Not sure I believe there are even 139 who took the offer. There's no way to verify, is there? Certainly Demeure kept changing just about everything they claimed. 

This ends up being high priced homeaway.com with cash pre-committed.

Did anyone on this discussion sign up for Demeure? None of the people I know who were UE members signed up.


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## Kagehitokiri2

the 139 could have very low commitments. 

so they kept 2 employees. odd. why bother? nice for those 2 employees though. but wait, which employees? execs rather than travel planners?

trials are never a bad thing. 

seems to me the lease model could have been used, like second home destinations, but regardless, its nice to see they are no longer rolling deposits into dues.

...

bottom line, the ridiculousness of the DC industry continues. in this case, still goes back to UE/PE, but now primary DC lender capsource, and demeure is another example of something thats not a DC in the DC space.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*demeure*

I do not know anyone who signed up personally either.  I know that Peter Schwartz, CEO, personally put in a lot of effort to persuade people to join (including me).   However I would bet a lot of the people that came over already have a second home and they contributed the use of this to fund a lot of their travel commitment--that is really the model that Peter is creating--a shared usage club as opposed to homeaway which is more of a broker.  I had heard rumors that a lot of the people who were signing up also had low travel commitments (PE premier or good negotiators).   I would still be interested in hearing about the experience but do not believe that making a commitment to this sort of program and pricing makes sense for our family.   We were successful without much effort at obtaining replacement homes/condos for teh four trips we had on the books through April at better than Demeure pricing and locations---but when the economy heats up that may no longer be the case.  Hope everyone had a happy holiday season in spite of the UE/CS/Q stress.


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## Kagehitokiri2

willmyclubmakeit said:


> I would bet a lot of the people that came over already have a second home and they contributed the use of this to fund a lot of their travel commitment--that is really the model that Peter is creating--a shared usage club as opposed to homeaway which is more of a broker.


good point. demeure's comments on that >


Kagehitokiri2 said:


> http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Closes_On_Select_Assets_From_Ultimate_Escapes_Estate.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beginning with bringing all of the Ultimate Escapes members with homes they wish to contribute to the club set up in the Demeure system.
Click to expand...


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## AKTHUE

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Closes_On_Select_Assets_From_Ultimate_Escapes_Estate.php



Doesn't that quote Demeure saying in November that they closed on 11 former UE homes from CapitalSource? Yet today they say they only closed on 9? Back in November they didn't say they "hoped to" or were "in the process or" or "planned to". They said they had closed on 11. If that statement had been truthful, it would be impossible to be reporting a smaller number now. Just like a month ago they said they were in the process of extending job offers to the UE travel planners ... when it turns out they let almost all of them go.

Demeure demonstrates you can't trust what they say to be true.

Life is too short to do business with people who demonstrate that they aren't trustworthy.


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## Kagehitokiri2

AKTHUE said:


> Demeure demonstrates you can't trust what they say to be true.


which unfortunately seems to be the motto of the DC industry.


AKTHUE said:


> Life is too short to do business with people who demonstrate that they aren't trustworthy.


youre kidding right?


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## TarheelTraveler

This seems like a very signficant change in their model again.

http://destinationclubnews.com/forum/demeure/note-from-demeure-ceo-greg-martin/

Sounds like now they are focusing on doing affiliations with local villa leasing providers.  So what's the advantage of going through Demeure?  Is the travel planner for free?  Do the villa rental agencies pay Demeure a fee for steering folks their way, which then pays for the website/travel planner?

They also did away with the 3 and 5 year membership model, where you committed to a certain amount of travel with them.  Now it's pay as you go with no membership fees.  I thought that was one of the main reasons you supposedly got discounts.

So is CapSource kicking themselves for having done that deal?  They've got a portfolio of houses, no UE members paying to keep those houses up, and the value which was the membership seems squandered away.  What am I missing?


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## Kagehitokiri2

theyve been doing the affiliate thing the whole time.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134402



Kagehitokiri2 said:


> minimum deposit for members is 4 weeks, but no specification re season... TTT was only 1 week, but high season. and ill bet there is no minimum deposit for rental management companies and hotels etc.
> 
> http://demeure.com/club
> http://demeure.com/villas


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## OneMoreTime

*CapSource Kicking themselves?*



TarheelTraveler said:


> This seems like a very signficant change in their model again.
> 
> http://destinationclubnews.com/forum/demeure/note-from-demeure-ceo-greg-martin/
> 
> So is CapSource kicking themselves for having done that deal?  They've got a portfolio of houses, no UE members paying to keep those houses up, and the value which was the membership seems squandered away.  What am I missing?



Maybe, but probably not. CapSource knew that the real value was in the Member's from interviews posted on DC News, but chose to go for the real estate only play. There were other options and groups but that would have required buy in from CapSource- probably easier to sell a loss and keep your job, than have to support an investment. 

It is a shame, not for CapSource, but for all the former Members....


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## Kagehitokiri2

http://destinationclubnews.com/News_Demeure_Passes_300_Properties.php


> The destination club and rental organization Demeure has added close to 100 new properties over the past month according to CEO Greg Martin, including destinations such as Bali, New Zealand, and Tuscany, bringing the club's total residence collection to over 300.



vs >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1004472&postcount=21


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## Kagehitokiri2

http://destinationclubnews.com/forum/demeure/demeure-joins-vrma-and-asta/


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## Kagehitokiri2

> Guaranteed lowest rates
> 
> Pay the lowest price available anywhere. Seriously: there's no catch!
> 
> The best prices you'll find anywhere
> 
> Our property owners commit to providing Demeure members with the best available rate — no matter where else their homes might be listed. We continually update our prices to reflect seasonal fluctuations and new special offers. We guarantee you’ll get the lowest price for your villa.


now that is interesting... but no mention of price matching or anything else...


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## Chicagomark

*Tried them around an upcoming Miami Trip......*

Hit them a couple of weeks ago on Monday morning at 9am asking what they had available in Miami six weeks out that had at least two bedrooms and two baths. Heard from them 28 hours later with one, and only one offering. A unit that is for sale in MLS at the Sayan Building and listed out loud as a foreclosure for $625 a night. Ended up using VRBO and paying a little more, and staying in a two bedroom, two bath unit condo unit at One Bal Harbour hotel.


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## Kagehitokiri2

Chicagomark said:


> $625 a night. Ended up using VRBO and paying a little more, and staying in a two bedroom, two bath unit condo unit at One Bal Harbour hotel.



enjoy your stay, it was built as a regent hotel

btw ive seen setai 2BR oceanfront from $1000 in the past


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## Kagehitokiri2

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> btw ive seen setai 2BR oceanfront from $1000 in the past



considering this is a fairly recent post, and last one in thread, i guess i should point out that management has been forced out at setai, and there is a pending/developing dispute, as well as reports of service drops and staff departures


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## AKTHUE

I have been amazed at the ads that Demeure has run, in the Wall Street Journal and other places. How can they afford so much marketing expense?

Has anyone traveled with them?


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