# Dog at NCV



## sjsharkie (Jan 1, 2015)

OK, I was apprehensive about posting this, since it already happened and there is nothing that can be done about it.  But since this is TUG, and we are in the business of sharing timeshare experiences, here goes...

My family stayed at NCV over the Christmas holiday.  It was nice and warm, and we just loved the entire week there.  That being said, I noticed a dog on property -- a Siberian Husky mix -- on three separate days.  Twice in the morning while I was grilling breakfast, I saw the dog being walked and once by the pool, where the owner had tied him up while swimming.

Now I know that it is possible that this was a service dog, even though there were no clear markings to indicate that, and that the person walking the dog was different each time I saw it (I didn't see who tied the dog to the pool chair while they went swimming).  Also possible that friends of owners took the dog home every day, but non-service dogs aren't allowed on property anyway.

Since there was a possibility it could be a service dog, I let it go.  However, I would not be happy knowing that I had inhabited a unit that previously had pets in it and I would never bring my pets to a timeshare.

What would you have done?  Should I have reported it to management or something else?

-ryan


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## DaveNV (Jan 1, 2015)

Kind of a judgment call, and you'd have to pick your battles.  I'd have asked management, certainly. Or maybe even asked the dog owner/walker about their beautiful dog: "He's gorgeous, what breed is that? Gosh, so pretty!  Are you staying here at the resort?"  Etcetera. You could have learned a lot by asking the right kind of questions.

I own a dog, so live in a house that has dog hair and such in it. I'm used to it. It wouldn't have bothered me too much, certainly not nearly as bad as someone who'd been smoking in the unit I was just about to check into.  

Dave


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## jimf41 (Jan 1, 2015)

Service dogs are a blurry area and there are several state and federal agencies that define them. The ADA says;

*Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.*

Then they say this;

*When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person's disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.*

In my previous career in law enforcement imagine if I pulled you over for speeding. I walk up to your car and ask if you were speeding. You answer "no". Then I ask "Do you need this car for transportation?" You answer "yes". Ok then, have a nice day. I can't even ask to see your driver's license or check to see if it's valid. Those are pretty much the rules for service dogs.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 1, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> OK, I was apprehensive about posting this, since it already happened and there is nothing that can be done about it.  But since this is TUG, and we are in the business of sharing timeshare experiences, here goes...
> 
> My family stayed at NCV over the Christmas holiday.  It was nice and warm, and we just loved the entire week there.  That being said, I noticed a dog on property -- a Siberian Husky mix -- on three separate days.  Twice in the morning while I was grilling breakfast, I saw the dog being walked and once by the pool, where the owner had tied him up while swimming.
> 
> ...



If anything, possibly called the front desk anonymously and make a comment.  It's then up to the management to further investigate.


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## EducatedConsumer (Jan 1, 2015)

Sadly, the whole Service Animal phenomena has become a scam, with "extortionists" taking advantage of every opportunity that they can find.

In my history of TUG, the best chronicle that I've ever seen, was the guy from Canada's (? Brian) video of the chase lounge hoarding at Marriott's BeachPlace Towers. There was a guy character with a cigar in the video (chase lounge hoarding), who was priceless, if I recall, an Al Capone look-alike.

A similar video of the alleged Service Dog, and chaperone - - poolside, no less - - would be interesting to see, and I would imagine, of interest to the management of Newport Coast Villas.

Speaking of cooks, there was a real freaky looking woman who tried to board a flight at Hartford Bradley International Airport a few weeks ago, with her Service Animal - PIG. The two pigs were thrown off of the aircraft, at the urging of repulsed passengers.


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## b2bailey (Jan 1, 2015)

Having returned from an extensive trip -- I found myself noticing MANY more service dogs than I have in the past. Note to myself was that people are finding ways to get their 'pet' classified so they can bring along. Perhaps just a 'service dog' vest was sufficient in most cases. Thankfully I like dogs and figure this is a trend that reminds me a bit of 'medical' marijuana.


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## BJRSanDiego (Jan 1, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Service dogs are a blurry area and there are several state and federal agencies that define them. The ADA says;
> 
> *Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.*
> 
> ...



It is such a shame that the various states or the Fed DON'T require that service dogs be accompanied with some sort of documentation, whether it be a special tag, a vest, etc.  There are way too many dog owners who are abusing the system and trying to pawn off their pet as a service animal.  It isn't fair for the people with severe allergies and it isn't fair to those that legitimately need a service animal.

When we were at NCV a year ago, there was an idiot owner who had a ~ 4 month old "service" dog who was totally out of control - - barking, nipping, ignoring commands, dragging his toddler handler around.  I asked the question about "what task can the dog perform?" and was told by the parent owner that "he licks my face and it makes me smile".  Someone else called security and it ended up that they had to remove the dog and pay a $250 deep cleaning fee.  

I would love to have the state or Fed address service animal documentation.  They require documentation for just about everything else but seem afraid or too lazy to tackle this one.  Perhaps it is for fear of being labeled as anti ADA.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 1, 2015)

BJRSanDiego said:


> It is such a shame that the various states or the Fed DON'T require that service dogs be accompanied with some sort of documentation, whether it be a special tag, a vest, etc.  There are way too many dog owners who are abusing the system and trying to pawn off their pet as a service animal.  It isn't fair for the people with severe allergies and it isn't fair to those that legitimately need a service animal.
> 
> When we were at NCV a year ago, there was an idiot owner who had a ~ 4 month old "service" dog who was totally out of control - - barking, nipping, ignoring commands, dragging his toddler handler around.  I asked the question about "what task can the dog perform?" and was told by the parent owner that "he licks my face and it makes me smile".  Someone else called security and it ended up that they had to remove the dog and pay a $250 deep cleaning fee.
> 
> I would love to have the state or Fed address service animal documentation.  They require documentation for just about everything else but seem afraid or too lazy to tackle this one.  Perhaps it is for fear of being labeled as anti ADA.



I've never understood why there can't be documentation that certifies a need for a service animal without disclosing the reason.  What's so difficult or invasive about an ID with pics of the owner and the animal?  The local DMV's are equipped to coordinate with drivers' medical providers to authorize HA plates/placards - the same set-up can and should be adopted for service animal eligibility.

At a resort I don't see anything wrong with stopping by the front desk and asking, "are you aware there is a dog in Unit ___?"  What they do with the info is up to them.  I probably wouldn't escalate anything further unless the dog impacts me personally.


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## klpca (Jan 1, 2015)

b2bailey said:


> Having returned from an extensive trip -- I found myself noticing MANY more service dogs than I have in the past. Note to myself was that people are finding ways to get their 'pet' classified so they can bring along. Perhaps just a 'service dog' vest was sufficient in most cases. Thankfully I like dogs and figure this is a trend that reminds me a bit of 'medical' marijuana.



I invited a family member on  a trip last year. They wanted to bring their dog - I said sorry, Marriott only allows service dogs. They told me they would just order a "service dog" vest online. It almost caused a fight when I said no, the dog couldn't come along. 

At our home this year, this same dog (who has a "canine good citizen certificate" btw),  presented us with a stinky Christmas present right in the middle of the living room floor, and later growled and snapped at one of my dogs. For me this is why only trained service animals should be allowed to stay in hotels. There's a huge disconnect between the perceived behavior of some dogs and their actual behavior.

I would have let the front desk know about the dog.


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## GreenTea (Jan 1, 2015)

I was checking in at the gate for a flight and there was some discussion between my agent and another who came to him for help regarding a woman and her "therapy chichuaha."    My agent kept telling the other "she only has to SAY it's a therapy dog; you can not for documentation."   Sad. 

But on the plus side I can take my therapy donkey along next trip.


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## laurac260 (Jan 1, 2015)

While we were at Grande Ocean during Thanksgiving, there were three dogs there.  One WAS a legitimate service dog, vest on.  I did not see the person it was to be "servicing", but saw the dog with a handler (the person who had the job of taking it out for it's "relief').

I also saw a family with an adorable retriever puppy.  I called the front desk and asked, "Are pets allowed here now?  Because I'd love to bring mine."  They mentioned that there were a few service dogs on site.  I asked if one of them was a cute tan retriever pup.  They said they did not know, but they would send someone down to check.  I am assuming, by the fact that the security guard escorted the entire family, pup in tow, from the pool area, that it was in fact NOT a service dog.

But my FAVORITE was the guy who was walking toward us smoking a big fat stogie.  I said, "Sir, you do know this is a non smoking facility, right?"  His reply, "I brought a letter."  I said, "You brought a letter allowing you to SMOKE??"  He sheepishly said, "No, I thought you were asking about the dog."  (admittedly, I did not notice little scruffy on the leash until he said something).  I said, "Didn't notice the dog, but no, they aren't allowed either."   His reply, as he stamped out his stogie was "We have approval for the dog, it's my sister-in-law's therapy dog."   

 I've never seen a lap dog being "sold" as a therapy dog, but hey, what I do I know???


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## Beefnot (Jan 1, 2015)

GreenTea said:


> I was checking in at the gate for a flight and there was some discussion between my agent and another who came to him for help regarding a woman and her "therapy chichuaha." My agent kept telling the other "she only has to SAY it's a therapy dog; you can not for documentation." Sad.
> 
> But on the plus side I can take my therapy donkey along next trip.



Support animals are the new "in" thing. Is that a company by company policy, this whole not asking for documentation thing you reference, or is there some sort of law that says a person must be taken at their word that an animal is a therapy animal? If the former, it will either take people actively complaining to management and writing letters, or a steady drumbeat of insanely public "jump the shark" events to have some sense knocked back into these companies. If the latter, well, God bless America.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 1, 2015)

Maybe I should have reported it.  I know I wouldn't appreciate staying in a unit that was previously inhabited by a pet.

We were in the far cluster of units 48xx-51xx and so there wasn't much staff activity in general around the buildings or near that pool.

-ryan


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## Rsauer3473 (Jan 1, 2015)

While I would hate to have to use my Emotional Support Spitting Cobra as an example, it would seem useful to have a standard nationwide labeling for approved service animals. I recognize that others cannot ask the reason for the animal, but a physician etc should have to certify the animal as necessary and an agency should dispense a standard label or patch (like a disabled driver placard.) 
My observation is that there are dozens of types of labels many of which can be ordered online. If someone is using a nonstandard label, I feel a hotel or airline not only has the right but the duty to investigate. 
I do not see the proliferation of service animals stopping until others affected by them start pressuring third parties like hotels and airlines.


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## Big Matt (Jan 1, 2015)

It might not have even been someone staying there.  Newport Coast doesn't really check visitors other than the weekend major check in days.  I don't know if they still have a spa, but when they did it was open to the public and at that point all bets are off.


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## DaveNV (Jan 1, 2015)

Everyone who is reading this thread should read this link, especially the FAQ page. It shows how easy it is to get "legal" with this sort of thing. It can all be done online. They even sell various vests.

<sarcasm>I'm thinking of registering a companion hamster. I wonder if I can get him a vest? </sarcasm>

https://www.officialservicedogregistry.com/register-your-dog/?gclid=CNWI6K-H9MICFYOUfgodDAUAYA

Dave, disgusted.  (My opinion:  Legitimate, trained Service Animals for legitimately disabled people are a welcome helper.  I have no issue with them.  But most of these so-called "Companion Animals" are just a nuisance.  I was nearly attacked by a misbehaving, out of control pitbull in Costco a few months ago. Complaints to management were met with shrugs and excuses of "What can we do? He says he's disabled and needs the dog with him." I disagreed, but what rights do *I* have? I'm just a regular, law-abiding citizen.)


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## VegasBella (Jan 1, 2015)

Hotels, landlords etc can demand documentation. They just can't demand specifics. For example, a letter from a doctor that says "so and so has a disability that is alleviated by a service or emotional support animal." They don't need to state the specific disability nor give specific examples of how the animal helps. 

The fact that hotels/timeshares don't demand this type of documentation speaks more to their lack of faith in staff to ask for documentation properly (in a way that does not violate privacy) than to the actual laws surrounding service and support animals. 

More info:
https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-animals#s4

Each state may differ slightly.


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## VegasBella (Jan 1, 2015)

For the record, 16 states make it a crime to fake a service animal. Check it out:
https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-assistance-animal-laws


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## EducatedConsumer (Jan 1, 2015)

laurac260 said:


> But my FAVORITE was the guy who was walking toward us smoking a big fat stogie.  I said, "Sir, you do know this is a non smoking facility, right?"  His reply, "I brought a letter."  I said, "You brought a letter allowing you to SMOKE??"  He sheepishly said, "No, I thought you were asking about the dog."  (admittedly, I did not notice little scruffy on the leash until he said something).  I said, "Didn't notice the dog, but no, they aren't allowed either."   His reply, as he stamped out his stogie was "We have approval for the dog, it's my sister-in-law's therapy dog."



Was he the featured star on the TUG premiered, video "Chase Lounge Hoarders at BeachPlace Towers?"


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 1, 2015)

EducatedConsumer said:


> Was he the featured star on the TUG premiered, video "Chase Lounge Hoarders at BeachPlace Towers?"



There should be a video like this. If it exists send link?


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## Fasttr (Jan 1, 2015)

EducatedConsumer said:


> Was he the featured star on the TUG premiered, video "Chase Lounge Hoarders at BeachPlace Towers?"





NYFLTRAVELER said:


> There should be a video like this. If it exists send link?



HERE is the referenced post with the video link.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 1, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Hotels, landlords etc can demand documentation. They just can't demand specifics. For example, a letter from a doctor that says "so and so has a disability that is alleviated by a service or emotional support animal." They don't need to state the specific disability nor give specific examples of how the animal helps.
> 
> The fact that hotels/timeshares don't demand this type of documentation speaks more to their lack of faith in staff to ask for documentation properly (in a way that does not violate privacy) than to the actual laws surrounding service and support animals.
> 
> ...



This is not correct.  There is a distinction between a service animal and emotional support animal.  From the ADA: "Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability."

Emotional support animals have different rules, although they are not covered under ADA.

This is why most businesses are reluctant to do anything -- once the owner says "service animal", they generally have a right to be anywhere other customers are with a few restrictions.

Cite:
http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

-ryan


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 1, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> HERE is the referenced post with the video link.



Thank you.   I have no issue with that practice so long as the person (or party) will actually be using the chairs - most places have a policy that if chairs are taken and not used within a certain time, the towels are picked up and chairs are released.


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## VegasBella (Jan 1, 2015)

Given the description of the dog and his behavior in the first post I felt it safe to assume he was an emotional support animal rather than a service animal. But since the OP didn't ask we'll never know.

ETA
It also depends on whether the hotel/timeshare falls under ADA or Fair Housing. If Fair Housing, they can ask for documentation.


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## sparty (Jan 1, 2015)

Bulldog is with us on this trip but he stays over at the PetSmart Pet Hotel on El Camino Real, Tustin. Only a few miles away from NCV.  I highly recommend this PetSmart  for anyone wanting to bring their dog on a trip to NCV.

Yesterday we went to Huntington Dog Beach.  Great off leash place to take your dog.  Only downside, was a professional photog who got some free shots.. Balboa island another great spot to take the dog too.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 1, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Given the description of the dog and his behavior in the first post I felt it safe to assume he was an emotional support animal rather than a service animal. But since the OP didn't ask we'll never know.
> 
> ETA
> It also depends on whether the hotel/timeshare falls under ADA or Fair Housing. If Fair Housing, they can ask for documentation.



I was the OP.  It doesn't matter what the dog or behavior looks like, if the owner claims service animal, all bets are off and no documentation needs to be presented.

Because Marriott rents rooms by the night and acts like a hotel for a portion of their guests, they would most certainly be subject to ADA rules.

-ryan


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## Wally3433 (Jan 2, 2015)

If you felt offended, cheated or inconvenienced, then you should have done something about it. 

I wish that MVC would allow dogs in units and would gladly pay a pet fee.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 2, 2015)

These days too many people walk on egg shells in order to be politically correct and not offend. I have seen that even on this website.  What happened to the days of telling it like it is.....?


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## SueDonJ (Jan 2, 2015)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> These days too many people walk on egg shells in order to be politically correct *and not offend*. I have seen that even on this website.  What happened to the days of telling it like it is.....?



I think people have found that being allowed to offend results in being ... offensive.    Most TUGgers appreciate that common courtesy is in play here.


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## jimf41 (Jan 2, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> For the record, 16 states make it a crime to fake a service animal. Check it out:
> https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-assistance-animal-laws



This excerpt from Florida law is my favorite.

*Any trainer of a service animal, while engaged in the training of such an animal, has the same rights and privileges with respect to access to public facilities and the same liability for damage.*

You don't have to have any disability, just say you're a dog trainer. According to the US Dept. of Labor you don't need any certification to state that you are a dog trainer.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/personal-care-and-service/animal-care-and-service-workers.htm#tab-4


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## laurac260 (Jan 2, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> This excerpt from Florida law is my favorite.
> 
> *Any trainer of a service animal, while engaged in the training of such an animal, has the same rights and privileges with respect to access to public facilities and the same liability for damage.*
> 
> ...



Well, here's the thing..  If someone is training the service animal, how are they going to be able to train it to behave properly in public areas for the person with the disability, unless they take the dog  IN the public areas during training?  I don't have a problem with this.  My only issue is the folks who are taking advantage of the system, by pretending their dog is a service or comfort animal, just so they can take it with them everywhere they go.  

I recall reading an article about this very thing, folks taking advantage of the system.  They interviewed a gentleman in a wheelchair, with a very real need for a service animal.  His complaint was that folks are starting to become so annoyed with the whole service animal thing, BECAUSE of the abuse, that sometimes he is looked at as someone who is trying to buck the system too.  As usual, a few bad apples spoil things for the legitimate, and law abiding folks.


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## swditz (Jan 2, 2015)

we were surprised last year to see 2 dogs at our westgate resort. When I asked about them I was informed that Westgate does allow pets, however they must be arranged for in advance and there are only a limited number of designated rooms that they allow pets in. Guests without prior approval will be required to pay a hefty cleaning fee and must remove the animal.


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## bazzap (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> If you felt offended, cheated or inconvenienced, then you should have done something about it.
> 
> I wish that MVC would allow dogs in units and would gladly pay a pet fee.


Well I for one sincerely hope that MVC do not ever allow dogs in units, pet fee or not!
I totally accept the need for allowing "essential" service animals, but that is all.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 2, 2015)

FWIW, we took our dogs through training up to the begining of service dog training. Because of this it's become easier for me to recoginze a dog that the owners say is a service dog but obviously is not. It's unfortunate that proof isn't required and that it's so easy to skirt the rules. 

This past year I've begun to notice considerably more dogs at resort which don't allow dogs. Only one was obviously a service dog, the rest appeared to be nothing more than pets. 

Eventually something will have to give. Either the rules will change to require proof of training to be a service animal or resorts will begin to allow pets with an additional cleaning fee. Because laws are impossible to change, my best guess is more resorts will become pet friendly with restrictions and fee's put in place to help control the issues. 

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution. Just the solution that takes the least amount of effort.


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## Wally3433 (Jan 2, 2015)

bazzap said:


> Well I for one sincerely hope that MVC do not ever allow dogs in units, pet fee or not!
> I totally accept the need for allowing "essential" service animals, but that is all.



Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.

I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.
> 
> I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.



I'm not allergic; in fact I have a dawg who's loved and treated as a member of the family.  Every time we visit Hilton Head I think of how much Ted would enjoy hanging out on the beach but we don't bring him to our timeshares because the rules say that he's not allowed.

If the rules change we'll probably still not bring him with us for two reasons - the first being that we simply prefer a resort with as few animals as possible and the second that Ted really enjoys spending time with my brother, our dawg-sitter.

I do want things to change but not in the way that you do.  What I want is for my resorts to have a legitimate way to enforce the stated rules so that all the self-important "Rules Don't Pertain To Me" VIPs-In-Their-Own-Minds are put in their place.


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## DeniseM (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.
> 
> I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.


Wally - everyone has a right to their opinion - if you are going to make this personal, please don't post.


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## klpca (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.
> 
> I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.



We own dogs and no one in the family is allergic to those. But my husband and two of my kids have allergies to cats (which I also love but can't own). The allergies make them miserable - nonstop sneezing, puffy itchy watery eyes, chronic runny nose -  and as we discovered a few years ago, trigger asthma attacks in my husband. They only have to be in the same airspace as a cat, or in a room where a cat lives (or lived depending on whether or not the carpet was cleaned). Antihistamines, inhalers and epipens are part of the gear that we carry when we travel. Allergies are very real. I don't have any allergies so I understand how someone without allergies can't really relate to how miserable they make someone who suffers from them, but I also understand the need for those who are affected to sleep/live without being exposed to allergens.

But this thread is about folks flaunting the rules regarding pets. Everyone has their own opinion about whether or not they should be allowed. Currently it is service animals only. They should be legitimate service animals.


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## laurac260 (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.
> 
> I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.



If I may, let me take a crack at this one.

Both my kids are allergic to dogs.  One has asthma, the other gets hives and has anaphylactic issues.  Degree of allergic reaction varies with breeds of dogs.  Which dogs are they MOST allergic to?  We have found so far that the biggest reaction with is German Shepherds (we discovered the dog allergies when we acquired a GS), and retrievers (we found this out when a friend's dog licked our son).  

Guess which dogs are used most often for service animals?  Shepherds and retrievers.  

So, do I think there should be an all out ban on ALL dogs, even service animals, due to my kids (and many folks) allergies?  Of course not.  Asthma is a serious issue, but I recognize the importance of these dogs to their owners, and I find the service dog/owner relationship to be amazing and important.

We have a soft coated wheaten terrier pup.  She is both, a) an adorable addition to our family, and b)hypoallergenic (as much as a dog can BE hypoallergenic).  Do I dream of the day that Marriott Grande Ocean allows pets so we can bring her along?  No.  Why?  Because if my pet comes, every pet comes.

Every pet includes the well behaved, well trained dogs that I love.  The friendly, frisbee catching, smiling little (and big) fidos that we all get attached to.

But, it also includes scruffy who loves people but bites kids, fido who hates other dogs (those will now be at your timeshare), the dog who's owner hasn't quite figured out how to potty train, the dog who is potty trained but pees when they are nervous, the territory markers, the dogs who aren't fixed, the dogs who have fleas, tics, haven't had all their shots, are carrying worms, the dogs who would be so well behaved were it not for their idiot owners (here's where I agree with your "human" allergy analogy).  They all come.  Dogs are dogs.  They behave like animals.  Sometimes they behave badly because their owners haven't trained them to behave well.  Sometimes they behave badly because their owners have trained them to NOT behave well.  

Google Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier to see just how absolutely adorable my dog is.  She looks, and acts, exactly like the picture.  She loves to jump, affectionately nibble, she gets excited and acts like an 8 year old boy, running through the house to chase a ball (I know this because I ALSO have an 8 year old boy).  Would you LOVE my dog to jump on you?  She only wants to lick you.  She may have dirt or mud on her paws, but she means well.  Would you mind if she affectionately nibbles on you, even if "sometimes" her nibbles are a bit too hard?  Would you mind if she ran up to your child and snatched the toy out of their hand and ran away with it?  Hopefully we will get it back before she leaves it covered with teeth marks.  We LOVE her.  Would you???


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## bazzap (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> Let me guess - allergies?  Are you allergic to dogs, but not essential service animals?  Can't wait for a response telling me about your horrific bouts with pet allergies.
> 
> I wish I could hide behind an allergy to humans.


No, no allergies at all.
We have been extremely happy with wonderful Old English Sheepdogs in our home for most of our adult life.
So we have absolutely no problem with dogs per se.
However, we always accepted MVC's no pets rule and believe it is absolutely the right thing to do for many reasons, but mostly for the quality and enjoyment of other owners stays.


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## Beefnot (Jan 2, 2015)

laurac260 said:


> If I may, let me take a crack at this one.
> 
> Both my kids are allergic to dogs. One has asthma, the other gets hives and has anaphylactic issues. Degree of allergic reaction varies with breeds of dogs. Which dogs are they MOST allergic to? We have found so far that the biggest reaction with is German Shepherds (we discovered the dog allergies when we acquired a GS), and retrievers (we found this out when a friend's dog licked our son).
> 
> ...




Preach it sista.


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## Wally3433 (Jan 2, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Wally - everyone has a right to their opinion - if you are going to make this personal, please don't post.



I was rendering an opinion.  I left my post just short of being personal, so that people like you and others that have commented, would conveniently MAKE it personal.  

For me, the OP has done the same - dancing around an opinion and asking a question with a known answer to make a point.

My bait and my counterpoint, while not popular, is shared by others not willing to post.


----------



## Beefnot (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> I was rendering an opinion. I left my post just short of being personal, so that people like you and others that have commented, would conveniently MAKE it personal.
> 
> For me, the OP has done the same - dancing around an opinion and asking a question with a known answer to make a point.
> 
> My bait and my counterpoint, while not popular, is shared by others not willing to post.


 
When it comes down to it, it was probably less about you making it personal per se and more about the unnecessarily confrontational attitude.


----------



## DeniseM (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> I was rendering an opinion.  I left my post just short of being personal, so that people like you and others that have commented, would conveniently MAKE it personal.
> 
> For me, the OP has done the same - dancing around an opinion and asking a question with a known answer to make a point.
> 
> My bait and my counterpoint, while not popular, is shared by others not willing to post.



Wally - when you use the terms "you" and "yours" and make it sarcastic, that is making it personal.  Please express your opinion without degrading other's opinions.

Just to be clear, I am not "people like you" - I am a TUG moderator, asking you to tone it down - thank you.


----------



## VegasBella (Jan 2, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> I was the OP.  It doesn't matter what the dog or behavior looks like, if the owner claims service animal, all bets are off and no documentation needs to be presented.
> 
> Because Marriott rents rooms by the night and acts like a hotel for a portion of their guests, they would most certainly be subject to ADA rules.



First, you don't actually know if the dog was a service dog or an emotional support dog or just a dog someone brought in without permission because you didn't ask.

Because you didn't ask, you also don't know if the dog was performing duties even if he appeared not to be, for example seizure dog basically just hangs out until their person has a seizure. So they'd appear to just be a regular pet but they might be more than that.

I guess what's bothering me about this thread is that people are jumping to conclusions. They're assuming the dog wasn't a real service or emotional support dog. They're assuming no one needed that dog there. They might e right but we don't actually know because the OP didn't ask. 

And for the record, the establishment may be restricted as to what they can or cannot ask but other patrons do not have any restrictions. You can be as intrusive as you want to be. Others might think you're rude but if you want to know you can just ask.

Also, out of control dogs are not required to be allowed. If a dog is acting like a menace or is defecating in an inappropriate spot that dog can be refused entry even if it's a service dog.

As to what law applies (ADA or Fair Housing) it would be determined on a case-by-case basis by a judge most likely. We cannot say for certain that just because a portion of the resort was a hotel that the entire resort is covered by ADA rather than Fair Housing in the case of service and support animals. See TUG discussions about adults-only hot tubs and wheel-chair accessible rooms for more on that.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 2, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> I was rendering an opinion.  I left my post just short of being personal, so that people like you and others that have commented, would conveniently MAKE it personal.
> 
> For me, the OP has done the same - dancing around an opinion and asking a question with a known answer to make a point.
> 
> My bait and my counterpoint, while not popular, is shared by others not willing to post.



I feel similarly as Wally.....As I mentioned in my earlier post, the world has become too politically correct - everybody is entitled to an opinion and shouldn't be afraid to voice it, but we all seem to naturally hold back.

This is meant towards nobody in particular, but nowadays many people feel they have to walk on eggshells just in case they may (even inadvertently) offend someone. That is whether they express an opinion on a pet allergy, service animal, have a certain political view or even an opinion about MVCI programs.

A bulletin board should (in a tactful way) be a place to share information and also opinions.


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## jimf41 (Jan 2, 2015)

1200 posts in two days? This is almost as good as the old ROFR days. It's not about dogs though, they are clearly not allowed and never have been in most resorts. It's not about service animals either, they are allowed and should be.

This thread is about government bureaucrats who pass stupid regulations and people who try to get around those regulations. If the lawmakers would just require some type of official certification the problem would end. There is hope that that might happen someday. As for the people who think the law doesn't apply to them and come up with all sorts of ways to get around it, well they are going to be with us forever I'm afraid.

Actually I think I liked the ROFR debates better. Not so much emotion and more factual discourse.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2015)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I feel similarly as Wally.....As I mentioned in my earlier post, the world has become too politically correct - everybody is entitled to an opinion and shouldn't be afraid to voice it, but we all seem to naturally hold back.
> 
> This is meant towards nobody in particular, but nowadays many people feel they have to walk on eggshells just in case they may (even inadvertently) offend someone. That is whether they express an opinion on a pet allergy, service animal, have a certain political view or even an opinion about MVCI programs.
> 
> A bulletin board should (in a tactful way) be a place to share information and also opinions.



This is an odd statment given that you thought the Aruba thread should be closed.


----------



## Rsauer3473 (Jan 2, 2015)

Maybe this controversy could be settled with a compromise. Say, allowing service animals, comfort pets, and emotional support critters to reserve lounge chairs by the pool for their owners for up to four hours. Just sayin'. 
My work here is done.


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## laurac260 (Jan 2, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> 1200 posts in two days? This is almost as good as the old ROFR days. It's not about dogs though, they are clearly not allowed and never have been in most resorts. It's not about service animals either, they are allowed and should be.
> 
> This thread is about government bureaucrats who pass stupid regulations and people who try to get around those regulations. If the lawmakers would just require some type of official certification the problem would end. There is hope that that might happen someday. As for the people who think the law doesn't apply to them and come up with all sorts of ways to get around it, well they are going to be with us forever I'm afraid.
> 
> Actually I think I liked the ROFR debates better. Not so much emotion and more factual discourse.


1200 VIEWS.  Only 48 posts.

Well, now, 49!


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## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2015)

laurac260 said:


> 1200 VIEWS.  Only 48 posts.
> 
> Well, now, 49!



Actually, 49 replies, 50 posts. Well now 51...


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## laurac260 (Jan 2, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Actually, 49 replies, 50 posts. Well now 51...



Can I get 52??  52, 52, 52... Going once, going twice....


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## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2015)

laurac260 said:


> Can I get 52??  52, 52, 52... Going once, going twice....



You were post #52. gone...


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## laurac260 (Jan 2, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> You were post #52. gone...



This is why I don't bid at auctions!


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## DeniseM (Jan 2, 2015)

Everyone is welcome to post their opinion in a respectful manner.  

From the TUG Posting Rules:


> Be Courteous
> As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!


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## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2015)

Just saw this thread and wanted to add some thoughts.

I totally agree that the trend of people trying to pass off pets as service animals is bothersome, and I put it in the same category as healthy person who borrows a relative's handicapped parking pass to get a closer spot at the mall. It's an abuse of a system designed to address legitimate needs.

Having said that, I wish more timeshares and resort properties could find ways to accommodate pets in some fashion, just as an increasing number of hotels are pet friendly. The lack of pet accommodation at timeshares/resorts certainly contributes to people trying to bend (or break) the rules by abusing the service animal exception.

We just returned from a two day trip - one night in Atlanta and a second night in Florida for the Orange Bowl football game (our son is a student at Georgia Tech). We have typically left our Cavalier King Charles with my mom when traveling, but she has recently had health issues and is now in a skilled nursing facility. Our Cavalier has only been boarded once several years ago, and did not do well in a boarding kennel. We do not have another good option for pet care as of now (although we are exploring options for the future and would love to hear of any creative ideas others have used if family/friends or kennel boarding are not options).

For this trip, we were able to secure pet-friendly accommodations at the full service Hilton Hotel near the Atlanta Airport and at a Marriott Fairfield Inn in Boca Raton, FL, so we were able to take our dog along for our short trip. Unfortunately, that option is not available at most resorts/timeshares.

I fully understand the issues with allergies, irresponsible owners, disruptive pets, etc., but many hotels -- ranging from full service to luxury -- have found ways to manage these issues and accommodate pets (fees, size limits, designated units, etc.), so I don't totally understand why condos and timeshares can't do the same. With points systems and flex-time ownership, the old days of 52 owners sharing a specific unit are gone, so I don't see why specific, limited units could not be designated as pet friendly and other rules established to accommodate that segment of owners who would love to be able to take their dog on some of their trips.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 2, 2015)

I think, if we get right down to it, what we truely find offensive is the entitlement attitude shown by a few people in society. Some want to do what they want to do and will do it and tell a lie without thinking twice to get their way. 

I don't think this is about the dogs so much as people taking advantage of a situation to do as they please, not as they should. At least that's what ticks me off. People who are just to darn good to follow basic rules in society because they just don't want to follow the rules.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 2, 2015)

While we are all sensitive to bonafide allergies, where is the line drawn? 

No pets in rooms but properties such as SW have cats roaming free?

I've seen that smoking in rooms at some properties is ok? The stale dirty smoke which gets embedded in carpets, sofas, bedding etc and could cause harm to the respiratory system.....

what if the bedding and towels are washed with a detergent which can cause an allergy?

 Point is that when you stay at a lodging facility, whether the Red Roof Inn or the Four Seasons you never know what went on in the room before you or what goes on at a property-- there is an inherent risk we all take by staying in such facilities.


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## silentg (Jan 3, 2015)

I was staying at a timeshare and noticed people walking their dogs on the grounds. I reported to the front desk and the agent said we can't stop them from coming on the property shrugged her shoulders . There were condos in the area so the owners of the dogs felt entitled to come on site and let their dogs do their business, this bothers me because if a timeshare owner brings a dog on site they are faced with fines, but neighbors are welcome. It put me off.


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## bazzap (Jan 3, 2015)

Reading comments about what some resorts may or may not allow, I wondered if MVC actually have any published rules on the subject.
I checked the MVC FAQs and they say
"Can I bring my pet with me?
No pets are allowed at Marriott Vacation Club resorts with the exception of guide and assistance dogs."
This seems fairly clear as a rule.
It is just a shame that some owners choose not to accept it and some resorts choose not to enforce it.
Like most rules (and laws), some people will agree with them some will disagree.
Rules can always be changed and if this one were to be then I would be disappointed but I would accept a decision made by the majority through due process.
Whilst this is the rule though, I do (not unreasonably I believe) expect it to be followed.


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## ilene13 (Jan 3, 2015)

I love my dog.  I have a 3 pound Yorkie that is litter box trained.  That said, I do not want to take her on vacation with me.  That just adds one more layer of responsibility that I do not want to have to deal with on vacation.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 3, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> For me, the OP has done the same - dancing around an opinion and asking a question with a known answer to make a point.
> 
> My bait and my counterpoint, while not popular, is shared by others not willing to post.



Isn't the purpose of this board to discuss issues and figure out how to make our timesharing experiences better?

There is no known answer to the question -- hence why there are so many opinions.  I certainly don't agree with yours, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 3, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> First, you don't actually know if the dog was a service dog or an emotional support dog or just a dog someone brought in without permission because you didn't ask.
> 
> Because you didn't ask, you also don't know if the dog was performing duties even if he appeared not to be, for example seizure dog basically just hangs out until their person has a seizure. So they'd appear to just be a regular pet but they might be more than that.



This is irrelevant to my point -- I stated that I did not ask because there was a possibility that the dog was a service animal.  I was correcting the misinformation that you posted earlier (see post #17) which did not distinguish between a service animal and emotional support animal.  The fact remains that if a patron claims that they have a service animal, the patron does not have to show any proof of training or disclose any information.



VegasBella said:


> And for the record, the establishment may be restricted as to what they can or cannot ask but other patrons do not have any restrictions. You can be as intrusive as you want to be. Others might think you're rude but if you want to know you can just ask.



Yes, hence why I didn't ask.  I prefer not to come off as rude.  If I were to act, it would have been contacting hotel management and letting them determine the appropriate course of action, but others may choose a different course of action.



VegasBella said:


> As to what law applies (ADA or Fair Housing) it would be determined on a case-by-case basis by a judge most likely. We cannot say for certain that just because a portion of the resort was a hotel that the entire resort is covered by ADA rather than Fair Housing in the case of service and support animals. See TUG discussions about adults-only hot tubs and wheel-chair accessible rooms for more on that.



You are entitled to your opinion.  Case law has found that timeshares operating as hotels fall under the jurisdiction of ADA -- NCV has a front desk, has bell services, rents rooms by the night, etc.  IMHO, it seems probable that a randomly selected federal judge will be able to draw a line from point A (previous case law) to point B (NCV).

(DOJ has discussed the relationship between the requirements of the Fair Housing Act and the ADA. They noted that many facilities are mixed use facilities. For example, a hotel may allow both residential and short term stays. In that case, both the ADA and the Fair Housing Act may apply to the facility, and the more stringent requirement needs to be applied.)

-ryan


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## Fern Modena (Jan 3, 2015)

For the poster who asked about dog sitting/boarding, I have some info. I used to have a dog sitter/house sitter for quite a few years. She was in a bad accident and unable to dog sit for me for the past six months. 

Someone recommended Rover.com to me. They are nationwide, so that will work for people who don't live where I do. It is a listing service for dog sitters, and provides reviews, and a way to contact sitters via email without disclosing your email address. Because they want to work, the dog sitters generally respond to requests for info within an hour or so.  They provide many classes such as doggie cpr, and also the sitters can get insurance for the dogs in case the dogs need a vet call. 

You look at reviews in the area you want to use, and read about the sitters. Then drop them an email with info about your dog, its needs, your needs, etc. If it sounds like it might work, you can arrange a meet and greet for you and your dog. This is very important, or was to me. The first meet and greet I did, while the woman was kind, etc., it just didn't click for me. Her dog kept chasing my low key dog around. And she had no doggie door. My dog needs a doggie door, this is what she is used to.

My second try was the people who are number one in our area, with over 400 positive reviews. I know why. They love dogs, and treat them like part of the family. They include pickup and delivery of Brianna (they live on the other side of the valley). Their dog and mine get along. Brianna loves to go with them. She's stayed with them three times already, and I will use them again.

Oh, and it is worry free in another way, too. You pay Rover.com, not the sitter, so you don't have to worry about getting taken to the cleaners.

Fern


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## Passepartout (Jan 3, 2015)

dougp26364 said:


> I think, if we get right down to it, what we truely find offensive is the entitlement attitude shown by a few people in society. Some want to do what they want to do and will do it and tell a lie without thinking twice to get their way.
> 
> I don't think this is about the dogs so much as people taking advantage of a situation to do as they please, not as they should. At least that's what ticks me off. People who are just to darn good to follow basic rules in society because they just don't want to follow the rules.



I agree with this statement. The whole thread boils down to 'So-and-so can have their dog at the resort, and I can't'- they MUST be SPECIAL, or feel entitled, or have a physical or emotional need that I can't ask about.

Get over it. It's only a dog, most dog owners/companions simply feel that 'Fido' is just another dependent. A 'furry-kid' if you will. Frankly, I'd rather see well behaved companion animals than unruly human kids around the resort.

Jim


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 3, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> Isn't the purpose of this board to discuss issues and figure out how to make our timesharing experiences better?
> 
> There is no known answer to the question -- hence why there are so many opinions.  I certainly don't agree with yours, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.



I agree with Wally. Too many people are caught up in the need to be PC nowadays that they do not say what they feel -- They think its easier to dance around the particular issue at hand.


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## DeniseM (Jan 3, 2015)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I agree with Wally. Too many people are caught up in the need to be PC nowadays that* they do not say what they feel* -- They think its easier to dance around the particular issue at hand.



NYFLTRAVELER - TUG has Posting Rules which you agreed to when you joined TUG.

Posts that violate those rules receive warnings, and sometimes further consequences.

We also have this rule:





> *do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. *Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.



Folks, let's get back on topic, and take the hostility down a couple of notches.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 3, 2015)

bazzap said:


> Reading comments about what some resorts may or may not allow, I wondered if MVC actually have any published rules on the subject.
> I checked the MVC FAQs and they say
> "Can I bring my pet with me?
> No pets are allowed at Marriott Vacation Club resorts with the exception of guide and assistance dogs."
> ...



Well put.  I'd like to bring my cats, too, but I think it's respectful to fellow owners and guests to follow the rules set forth by management.

-ryan


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 3, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> NYFLTRAVELER - TUG has Posting Rules which you agreed to when you joined TUG.
> 
> Posts that violate those rules receive warnings, and sometimes further consequences.
> 
> ...



Please take note that my comment has zero to do with this site and was a comment about society in general.  If it was interpreted as something pointed towards this site it was not intended to be.  I agree time to get back on topic; to wit, animals at resorts and whether people abuse the "service animal" designation to circumvent rules (which I believe some do as some also do with airlines as well).


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## SueDonJ (Jan 3, 2015)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I agree with Wally. Too many people are caught up in the need to be PC nowadays that they do not say what they feel -- They think its easier to dance around the particular issue at hand.



Believe me, some days it's much better for everyone if I "dance around" rather than say what I feel.  And everybody who won't say the same about themselves is deluded.  

I don't have a problem with there being laws prohibiting discrimination against service animals and the people who have a legitimate need for them.  My problem, like most others in this thread, is with the DYKWIA's who disregard the intent of those laws in order to satisfy their own delusional entitlement.

But I don't see how it's "PC" for a guest onsite at a resort to not be willing to go up to a person with a dog and ask point-blank, "is that a service dog?"  What would be the purpose?!  We're not all The Dog Police!  It's simply common sense - not "political correctness" - to get the onsite personnel involved and let them do the questioning and then respond according to the answer and the rules in place.  They're charged with that responsibility; the rest of us are not.

Being an obnoxious rude boor at a Marriott resort, by confronting every person there with a dog, isn't going to make one bit of difference to The Self-Entitled.  The fact that it also may offend someone who has a legitimate need makes me even more hesitant to be that boor.


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## VegasBella (Jan 3, 2015)

First, this thread is about Newport Coast Villas, right? If so there are some pet-friendly websites that list that they used to be pet-friendly. Perhaps some legacy owners still have this privilege.

---
I think we're talking over each other, sjsharkie, as I feel you've misunderstood my posts.



sjsharkie said:


> The fact remains that if a patron claims that they have a service animal, the patron does not have to show any proof of training or disclose any information.


First, if asked, they DO have to disclose some information as discussed earlier: the presence of a disability and the task(s) the animal performs to assist.

They must also demonstrate that they have control over the animal. 
...
"*Service Animals Must Be Under Control*
Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls."
....

But my point was that the blanket assumption that staff can't ask any questions or demand documentation is not accurate. We don't actually know what the dog's people claimed. If they claimed the animal was an emotional support animal rather than a service animal then staff could have asked or some documentation. (It seemed obvious to me that this animal - as described - was more likely to be an emotional support animal rather than a service dog.)

Furthermore, patrons may ask for documentation (they can't demand it of course but they can ask nearly anything they want). 

The statement made in post #3 and the resulting comments suggested that other posters thought there was nothing they could do about animals who appeared not to be true service animals. In fact, there are things they can do. That's the point I was making and why I had the follow-up post about states that have penalties for pretending a dog is a service dog when he/she is not a service dog. 



sjsharkie said:


> (DOJ has discussed the relationship between the requirements of the Fair Housing Act and the ADA. They noted that many facilities are mixed use facilities. For example, a hotel may allow both residential and short term stays. In that case, both the ADA and the Fair Housing Act may apply to the facility, and the more stringent requirement needs to be applied.)


And Fair Housing would require that they must allow emotional support animals whereas other types of businesses would not be required to allow emotional support animals. 
See NOLO: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...nimals-access-public-places-other-settings.ht

THUS, if this dog was identified as an emotional support animal then staff would likely have had to allow it on premises but could have required some documentation. 

Anyway, the point is that it's not as futile as most are making it out to be. If you have a problem with animals and you think they aren't legitimate service animals there ARE things you can do about it.


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## VegasBella (Jan 3, 2015)

dougp26364 said:


> I think, if we get right down to it, what we truely find offensive is the entitlement attitude shown by a few people in society.



I'd like to posit that there's a certain element of self-entitlement to all those who:
- see a dog, 
- don't understand if the dog is a service dog or not, 
- assume it's probably not a service dog because they can't easily identify the person's disability, 
- then assume the person is "taking advantage" and feels "special" and "entitled"
- regardless of the fact that said dog doesn't actually cause any/much inconvenience 



Why are there never long threads about all the people who illegally use handicapped parking spaces??? I'm certain it happens far more frequently than pretend service dogs and it causes far more actual inconvenience as well. Where's the outrage?


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## tlwmkw (Jan 3, 2015)

I am curious about the control aspect that was mentioned with relation to support animals. I know someone who has extreme vertigo and has a large golden as a support animal ( I believe this is genuine because it wears the harness with the designation and so on). Anyway this dog is quite aggressive and growls at strangers. It also defecates where-ever it chooses. Is this supposed to be controlled by the owner and can I ask her to remove the dog if it is doing this? I thought we couldn't question the right of the dog to be anywhere. I should explain that the dog comes to my place of business where we do not usually allow dogs. 

tlwmkw


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## DeniseM (Jan 3, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Why are there never long threads about all the people who illegally use handicapped parking spaces??? I'm certain it happens far more frequently than pretend service dogs and it causes far more actual inconvenience as well. Where's the outrage?



This thread is about dogs at TIMESHARES - which is of great interest to timeshare owners.

A more general topic (abuse of handicapped parking spaces) is an issue, but it is less likely to be of interest to timeshare owners.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 3, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> ... Why are there never long threads about all the people who illegally use handicapped parking spaces??? I'm certain it happens far more frequently than pretend service dogs and it causes far more actual inconvenience as well. Where's the outrage?



The difference is that it's simple to recognize when an HA spot is taken by someone not entitled to it, and it's a simple matter to get the car towed and the car's owner ticketed.

There was a time when the HA parking issue was as full of fraud and misuse as the "service dog" issue is today and for the same reasons - it's not always immediately evident that a disability is in play and/or there wasn't oversight that protected the system for those legitimately entitled to it.  But eventually those who are entitled realized that in order to protect their rights, they would have to agree to publicly-recognizable plates/placards despite it meaning a minor-level loss of privacy.

The same or a similar solution is going to have to be implemented to protect "service animal" rights because the entire system now is being eroded not by those who question the rampant abuse in the system, but by those who perpetrate the abuse.


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## VegasBella (Jan 3, 2015)

tlwmkw said:


> I am curious about the control aspect that was mentioned with relation to support animals. I know someone who has extreme vertigo and has a large golden as a support animal ( I believe this is genuine because it wears the harness with the designation and so on). Anyway this dog is quite aggressive and growls at strangers. It also defecates where-ever it chooses. Is this supposed to be controlled by the owner and can I ask her to remove the dog if it is doing this? I thought we couldn't question the right of the dog to be anywhere. I should explain that the dog comes to my place of business where we do not usually allow dogs.
> 
> tlwmkw


The control and housebroken issue is detailed here:

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/smallbusiness/smallbusprimer2010.htm#serviceanimals

and here:
http://www.ada.gov/archive/qasrvc.htm

which says:

"10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?
A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.
Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises."


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## nakyak (Jan 3, 2015)

Great thread.

I know a lot about this subject.

Under no circumstances can resort personnel ask for any documentation or proof for service animals or disability .  They are limited to asking the following:  "is your animal trained to perform a service related to a disability". Personnel are not permitted to ask what specific service they can perform.  

Service animals are limited to dogs, pigs, and miniature horses.  

Emotional support animals do not fall under ADA.


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## Fasttr (Jan 3, 2015)

I had remembered a recent New Yorker magazine article on this topic....HERE it is.  It's a great read.


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## bazzap (Jan 3, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> I had remembered a recent New Yorker magazine article on this topic....HERE it is.  It's a great read.


Yes a great read that just about says it all.
It could be even more amusing, if it did not in so many ways remind you of the reality of the situation.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 3, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> I think we're talking over each other, sjsharkie, as I feel you've misunderstood my posts.
> 
> First, if asked, they DO have to disclose some information as discussed earlier: the presence of a disability and the task(s) the animal performs to assist.



No, I don't think we are talking over each other.  I think you are not accurate in your postings -- please cite where ADA requires disclosure of the above information per your statement.

See also post #77 from another member.

If the patron states that the animal is a service animal, they are not required to show or discuss anymore information with the hotel staff.  Period.

-ryan


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## MALC9990 (Jan 3, 2015)

Emotional Support Animal ? Has the whole USA gone totally stark raving mad? You really cannot be serious, can you? Save me from this madness ever coming to our shores in the UK. A guide dog for the blind, or a hearing dog for the deaf is fine and sensible but this madness is another thing altogether.


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## VegasBella (Jan 3, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> No, I don't think we are talking over each other.  I think you are not accurate in your postings -- please cite where ADA requires disclosure of the above information per your statement.


OMG 

I said that sometimes an animal on resort premises might be an emotional support animal that's allowed to be there due to the Fair Housing Act, not ADA. And I have said that under that rule the staff is allowed to ask for some documentation. 

You have assumed that the animal was a service animal or that the people stated it was a service animal but you don't actually know what kind of animal it was (service, emotional support, pet) or what rules allowed it.

ETA: 
What I meant by "they DO have to disclose some information as discussed earlier: the presence of a disability and the task(s) the animal performs to assist" is that those are the ANSWERS to the two questions staff at a business is allowed to ask. They don't have to provide proof of a disability or the particular nature of the disability, but they do have to disclose the existence of a disability. When asked "is the dog a service animal required because of a disability" the answer needs to be "yes" or else the staff can deny access for the dog. Likewise, when asked "what work or task has the dog been trained to perform" they need to provide an answer that makes reasonable sense. They can't say "I don't know what the dog can do" and expect a business to treat the animal as a service dog.


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## Beefnot (Jan 3, 2015)

MALC9990 said:


> Emotional Support Animal ? Has the whole USA gone totally stark raving mad? You really cannot be serious, can you? Save me from this madness ever coming to our shores in the UK. A guide dog for the blind, or a hearing dog for the deaf is fine and sensible but this madness is another thing altogether.



 Apparently we have lost our flipping minds. Check out that other pig on the plane thread that got closed a few days ago. I am as completely flabbergasted as you are at this type of nonsense overtaking our nation. Alas.


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## CarolF (Jan 3, 2015)

MALC9990 said:


> Emotional Support Animal ? Has the whole USA gone totally stark raving mad? You really cannot be serious, can you? Save me from this madness ever coming to our shores in the UK. A guide dog for the blind, or a hearing dog for the deaf is fine and sensible but this madness is another thing altogether.



I thought the same.  



nakyak1504 said:


> Service animals are limited to dogs, pigs, and miniature horses.



In Australia, $35 000 is the cost of training one service dog and they are very carefully assessed for suitability prior to training and carefully matched (free of charge) to their owners.  I have never met a miniature horse with a suitable temperament for such a public job.  I don't know many pigs.

I'm wondering who supports these people to manage the cost of housing, feeding and caring for their emotional support dog, pig or miniature horse as well as taking a holiday in a timeshare or hotel?  Are many employers able to accommodate emotional support animals in the workplace or are these unfortunate people unemployable due to their mental/psychiatric disability?


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## CarolF (Jan 3, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> That being said, I noticed a dog on property -- a Siberian Husky mix -- on three separate days.
> -ryan



Maybe you saw Sparky from eBay   (quick_id_cards)


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## Rsauer3473 (Jan 3, 2015)

Check out this DOJ question and answer memo: http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm


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## jimf41 (Jan 3, 2015)

MALC9990 said:


> Emotional Support Animal ? Has the whole USA gone totally stark raving mad? You really cannot be serious, can you?



Yes and yes. But despite our occasional nuttiness it's still a great place to live.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 3, 2015)

In other words, in a situation where we are not dealing with a bonafide service animal, if the person with the animal (e.g. dog) wants to thumb their nose at the rules of the business (e.g. a MVCI resort or an airline) and tells the hotel or airline that its a service animal, even if its not, that's that, that animal is now welcomed.

Perhaps this is something people should start bringing up to their congress person, establish laws to protect the legitimate situations but police against the abuse.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 4, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> OMG
> 
> I said that sometimes an animal on resort premises might be an emotional support animal that's allowed to be there due to the Fair Housing Act, not ADA. And I have said that under that rule the staff is allowed to ask for some documentation.
> 
> You have assumed that the animal was a service animal or that the people stated it was a service animal but you don't actually know what kind of animal it was (service, emotional support, pet) or what rules allowed it.



You should reread the previous posts to see what was actually stated by you and by me.  I never assumed that the animal was a service animal in any of my posts.

We will agree to disagree, and I'll pass on responding to anymore of your posts in this thread.

-ryan


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## sjsharkie (Jan 4, 2015)

CarolF said:


> Maybe you saw Sparky from eBay   (quick_id_cards)



Haha.  Sparky has aged quite a bit if he is the same dog I saw.  

-ryan


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## CarolF (Jan 4, 2015)

sjsharkie said:


> Haha.  Sparky has aged quite a bit if he is the same dog I saw.
> 
> -ryan



Ah, pity.  I might cope with sharing the pool with that cute little pup.  Sharing with pigs would be more of a challenge.


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## nakyak (Jan 4, 2015)

A property can also not charge for a service animal unless damage is incurred.   Guests typically have to sign a waiver that establishes certain policies such as damage waiver, cleaning up the mess, & overall behavior.  

It sounds like MVCI has a policy regarding service animals.  The gray area is their policy regarding emotional support animals.  Emotional support animals are not covered under ADA and if MVCI allows them in then that is solely on them.


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## bazzap (Jan 4, 2015)

The MVC policy is
"No pets are allowed at Marriott Vacation Club resorts with the exception of guide and assistance dogs."
so I read that their policy on Emotional Support Animals is - none allowed.
As Malcolm has so clearly highlighted, this is thankfully an alien concept to us outside of the US and hopefully will remain so.
I am all for people benefiting from the emotional support of well cared for pets, but to enforce this with legal rights and obligations is just plain ridiculous.


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## EducatedConsumer (Jan 4, 2015)

b2bailey said:


> Having returned from an extensive trip -- I found myself noticing MANY more service dogs than I have in the past. Note to myself was that people are finding ways to get their 'pet' classified so they can bring along. Perhaps just a 'service dog' vest was sufficient in most cases. Thankfully I like dogs and figure this is a trend that reminds me a bit of 'medical' marijuana.



Bingo!

Add to that, grandparents communicating with grandchildren by text messages, in place of face to face verbal dialogue or phone to phone verbal dialogue, husband and wife doing the same, parents and children doing the same, and it doesn't take much to figure out why society is fractured.

Sadly, the children who see their parents "extorting the system," be it by "sneaking their dog into a resort under the false aegis that he is a companion or service animal," or fulfilling their need for recreational marijuana with a prescription for medical marijuana, and it's no wonder that the next generation will create an unprecedented demand for mental health workers, and for law enforcement. The alternative, I guess, is to continue to vote in elected officials who subscribe to the "anything goes" mantra, and the voters will have gotten exactly what they asked for.

Imagine, a freak of a person, carrying her "support animal" PIG onto a US Airways flight, and she thought that was OK (no less, socially acceptable).


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## pedro47 (Jan 4, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Service dogs are a blurry area and there are several state and federal agencies that define them. The ADA says;
> 
> *Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.*
> 
> ...



In most state service dogs or clearly mark with a vest on their body. marking should be "service dog or work dog" this is how that are identify in the Commonwealth of VA.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 4, 2015)

CarolF said:


> Ah, pity.  I might cope with sharing the pool with that cute little pup.  Sharing with pigs would be more of a challenge.



Those are the swimming pigs in the Bahamas.  I know about them.  They are awesome.


But back to ESA or Service Animals.

I have a retired pet therapy animal.  He is a certified pet therapy dog.   I used to bring him to the kid's hospital and senior's assisted living homes to make visits.  But he is getting too old and I have retired him. (He is 14 year old now.)  

He is very well behaved and calm, minds very well, is very gentle with people of all ages.  I could have him pass as a service animal, but am completely against the blatant abuse by people who think that laws should not apply to them.  

By the way, there has been some thought on moving to miniature horses as service animals.  The main factor the life span of the animal.  Service dogs are often larger breed Dogs and might live 10 - 12 years on average.  A miniature horse lives 25 to 35 years.  Thus having the handler not have to replace a cherished service pet as frequently over their lifespan.


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## silentg (Jan 4, 2015)

I am surprised you invited this dog to your home!


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## jimf41 (Jan 4, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> In most state service dogs or clearly mark with a vest on their body. marking should be "service dog or work dog" this is how that are identify in the Commonwealth of VA.



Virginia has some very nice laws about working dogs of various types. Unfortunately Service dogs or Emotional support dogs are not required to have any certification. If you want certification you can go to these folks and get it for free.

https://www.officialservicedogregistry.com/register-your-dog/?gclid=CPnS8Mnb-sICFVNp7AodVVMAjQ

If you want you can get a nice certificate like this for $129.00

For an additional charge you can get a nifty dog badge of vest that says that you can take your dog anywhere and nobody can stop you under penalty of Federal law.

The website further states this little tidbit,

*People with service animals must be allowed access to all public accommodations.
This right takes precedence over all state and local laws which might otherwise prohibit animals in those places such as Stores, Malls, Restaurants, Hotels/Resorts, Airlines,Cruises, Taxi cabs, Buses just to name a few.

Any size or breed of dog can be an emotional support or service dog, emotional support dogs do not have to be professionally-trained to perform any task. Service dogs can be trained by their owners or in any other manner the owner desires.*

If you think this a crazy situation like some of our Tugger pals from the UK I have to agree with you. If you think that contacting the resort management is the way to fix this then you are absolutely wrong. They have to obey the law. Contacting your state or local representative won't help either, state and local laws are trumped by Federal laws.

The only way this is going to stop is to get the Federal law changed or amended by requiring Government certification for working animals. Will that happen? You bet it will. According to the Humane Society of the US 62% of US households have at least one pet. That percentage is increasing every year. When you visit the pool at your favorite MVW resort and you see 100 families there with 62 pets running around there will be an outcry to change the laws.

The real losers in this mess are the truly handicapped folks who have a real need for this and are now being looked at suspiciously by a majority the rest of us.


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## MALC9990 (Jan 4, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Virginia has some very nice laws about working dogs of various types. Unfortunately Service dogs or Emotional support dogs are not required to have any certification. If you want certification you can go to these folks and get it for free.
> 
> https://www.officialservicedogregistry.com/register-your-dog/?gclid=CPnS8Mnb-sICFVNp7AodVVMAjQ
> 
> ...



Jim
Here in the UK we have the same requirements for people with service animals to have access to places such as shops, restaurants, hotels, etc. The most obvious would be the Guide Dog for the Blind person. These are trained by a UK Charity and then supplied to a blind person who needs such an animal. We also have hearing dogs for the profoundly deaf - these however would typically be of use at home or other indoor places. For these it is clear to others that they are service animals.

What we do not have are any examples of Emotional Support Animals - they probably do exist but if I google such a term - I only get hits from the USA.

I draw a distinct difference between a service animal (typically a specially trained dog) and an Emotional Support Animal - which to me is just another name for a PET. I have two cats and they are PETS and I would not even consider taking them on vacation or anywhere - they would probably freak out and run away. Whilst I regard them both as members of the family - they are not Emotional Support Animals! Emotional Support - I get from my wife !

I note that your text differentiates between a Service Animal and an Emotional Support Animal - it would seem to me that only Service Animals such as a specially trained Guide Dog for a blind Person would qualify to have access anywhere - surely!. I would definitely draw a distinction between a Blind Person's need for their Guide Dog and someone who is emotionally dependant upon their pooch. 

I would not want to see any law changed here or the USA to prevent a service animal assisting their owner in any way - but a pet is a pet - whatever you choose to call it and should not be classed as a service animal unless properly trained and registered with the authorities.


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## Beefnot (Jan 4, 2015)

Federal laws are largely written and enacted by our state representatives in the House of Representatives and Senate.  So one just needs to be clear on which state representative they contact.


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## windje2000 (Jan 4, 2015)

Rsauer3473 said:


> Check out this DOJ question and answer memo: http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm



From the link above:



> 10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?
> 
> A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.
> 
> Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises.



I've been increasingly annoyed with the able bodied folks who abuse MVC with this "ADA lets me bring my phony service animal pet and you can't stop me stuff."  

But two can play that game.  Here's one solution.

A barking aggressive or growling 'service' dog (and complaint to management about it) trumps the ADA exemptions.  

Marriott management would be crazy not to ban real or phony 'service' dogs having these characteristics - they don't want the liability if the dog does in fact bite someone  . . . after receiving a complaint.

Accordingly - methinks little fluffy is growling at me.  I'm scared.  I complain.  Buh bye fluffy.

Thanks to Rsauer3473 for the link.  

The DOJ encourages reproduction of the FAQ and I will bring a copy with me from now on.


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## DaveNV (Jan 4, 2015)

I wanted to mention something that recently happened to me that is along the line of suspicion of whether the support animal is real:

I work at a hospital.  Returning to the campus recently mid-morning, I had to hunt everywhere for a place to park. I have progressive degenerative arthritis in several joints, and a knee replacement.  I find it uncomfortable to walk long distances, but I manage. Stairs are especially difficult.  I do not have an ADA card or handicapped designation at this time.  I'm not a complainer, and I try and "tough it out" whenever I can. I prefer to leave the handicapped spaces for those who truly need them.

I finally found what was probably the last parking space at the far end of the furthest parking lot.  I walked the great distance to the front door.  As I finally arrived, I see this shiny (much newer than my own) tricked-out BMW whip into the Handicapped space nearest the door.  Out hops an athletic young guy, maybe 30, dressed in a fancy suit, who smiles in my direction as he RUNS up the steps to the entrance and into the building.

I'm dumbstruck, and my hackles immediately went up. I check his license plate, but it's not a handicapped plate.  I look closer, and hanging from his rear view mirror is one of those cards that allow parking in handicapped spaces.

I'm thinking fraud. I'm thinking this guy is a scammer with a stolen or falsely-acquired card. Is it his card, or does it belong to his spouse or parent, who isn't with him?  I'm thinking every bad thing about the guy that I can.  And here's the rub:

I have no evidence to this day that he ISN'T considered handicapped. I don't have a clue.  All I have is my suspicion that he's not entitled to the benefit. But maybe he is.  I have no way of knowing.  And it's doubtful I'll ever find out. What bothers me most is that I'm immediately suspicious of him and the situation.

The same goes for me toward these support animals.  (I'm talking about support animals, not service animals that are obviously serving the person.) Maybe they're truly needed.  Maybe someone has a serious condition that could be a real problem if the animal isn't there.  But maybe it's just a neurotic owner who freaks out if Fluffy isn't with them every minute.  Maybe Fluffy is just an untrained, spoiled monster of an animal who shreds the couch cushions if left home alone.  Maybe the support provided to the owner is knowing the horrific creature isn't home destroying the house while the owner is out shopping.

I'll never know.  But what rankles most on me is that I have seen enough fraud to AUTOMATICALLY think someone would abuse a system intended to help those who truly need it.  And that is truly sad.

Dave


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## jimf41 (Jan 4, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Federal laws are largely written and enacted by our state representatives in the House of Representatives and Senate.  So one just needs to be clear on which state representative they contact.



Members of Congress, both in the Senate and House, are federal representatives. They write the federal laws. The folks in your state legislature are your state representatives. They take care of your state statutes.


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## CarolF (Jan 4, 2015)

Sandy VDH said:


> Those are the swimming pigs in the Bahamas.  I know about them.  They are awesome.



Yes, quite a novelty.  I was reading the ADA link here and  thinking about Ryans observation of the Husky by the pool, tied to the pool chair.  Our friends book their Retriever into a "doggy spa" when on holiday and can watch her enjoying swimming for exercise via video link.  I'm wondering how long before someone thinks of swimming with their "support animal" at a resort. 



> The service animal must be permitted to accompany the individual with a disability to all areas of the facility where customers are normally allowed to go. An individual with a service animal may not be segregated from other customers.


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## BJRSanDiego (Jan 4, 2015)

BMWguynw said:


> I wanted to mention something that recently happened to me that is along the line of suspicion of whether the support animal is real:
> 
> ... I see this shiny (much newer than my own) tricked-out BMW whip into the Handicapped space nearest the door.  Out hops an athletic young guy, maybe 30, dressed in a fancy suit, who smiles in my direction as he RUNS up the steps to the entrance and into the building.
> 
> ...



I live in California and it is illegal for someone to use someone else's handicapped placard or Handicapped license.  I think that it is a pretty big fine.  In theory, a placard holder is supposed to also have in their possession the paperwork made out to the authorized individual.  It is likely that the jogger you encountered was using someone else's placard.

But from a practical point-of-view, I'm not sure how effective it would be to make a stink and/or call the police.  I suppose that you could have recorded the placard number (in Ca. they are all numbered) and license number and filed a complaint.  I just don't know whether some bureaucrat would take action or would just chuck it in the waste basket.


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## curbysplace (Jan 5, 2015)

BMWguynw said:


> . . . I see this shiny (much newer than my own) tricked-out BMW whip into the Handicapped space nearest the door.  Out hops an athletic young guy, maybe 30, dressed in a fancy suit, who smiles in my direction as he RUNS up the steps to the entrance and into the building.
> 
> I'm dumbstruck, and my hackles immediately went up. I check his license plate, but it's not a handicapped plate.  I look closer, and hanging from his rear view mirror is one of those cards that allow parking in handicapped spaces.
> 
> ...



Scammers and frauds need to be treated as such, fined, etc. I have no sympathy for jerks like that either.  

Now please consider this scenario:  You said this happened at a hospital.  So is there any chance the guy in the shiny tricked-out BMW picked up his folks or grandparents who "own" the handicap placard?  I ask this because my wife and I are often in a similar position picking up her folks, whether they are at the hospital, doctor's office, at a movie or shopping. They both use walkers and need a lot of assistance getting into the car and getting into and out of any building.  We may race into the building and appear to others that we are abusing the system using their placard for a handicap parking space.  Unless that same person who sees us walk in also sees us 15-20 minutes later walking out with my in-laws and their walkers . . . .


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## Beefnot (Jan 5, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Members of Congress, both in the Senate and House, are federal representatives. They write the federal laws. The folks in your state legislature are your state representatives. They take care of your state statutes.



Apparently I am using incorrect or misleading terminology, but am trying to convey the same thing. Members of Congress are elected by citizens in their respective local congressional districts or states. There are also local and state-level political representatives that have no federal representation.


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## DaveNV (Jan 5, 2015)

BJRSanDiego said:


> I live in California and it is illegal for someone to use someone else's handicapped placard or Handicapped license.  I think that it is a pretty big fine.  In theory, a placard holder is supposed to also have in their possession the paperwork made out to the authorized individual.  It is likely that the jogger you encountered was using someone else's placard.
> 
> But from a practical point-of-view, I'm not sure how effective it would be to make a stink and/or call the police.  I suppose that you could have recorded the placard number (in Ca. they are all numbered) and license number and filed a complaint.  I just don't know whether some bureaucrat would take action or would just chuck it in the waste basket.




They're numbered here, too.  But I've never seen anyone being challenged over whether they're legitimately using the card. I had one for a few months after my knee replacement surgery, but it had an expiration date on it. I'd imagine anyone with a color printer could easily reproduce a card that would pass for legal from a distance. They could extend the usage indefinitely, until/unless they got caught.  

Dave


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## DaveNV (Jan 5, 2015)

curbysplace said:


> Scammers and frauds need to be treated as such, fined, etc. I have no sympathy for jerks like that either.
> 
> Now please consider this scenario:  You said this happened at a hospital.  So is there any chance the guy in the shiny tricked-out BMW picked up his folks or grandparents who "own" the handicap placard?  I ask this because my wife and I are often in a similar position picking up her folks, whether they are at the hospital, doctor's office, at a movie or shopping. They both use walkers and need a lot of assistance getting into the car and getting into and out of any building.  We may race into the building and appear to others that we are abusing the system using their placard for a handicap parking space.  Unless that same person who sees us walk in also sees us 15-20 minutes later walking out with my in-laws and their walkers . . . .




I completely agree that could have been the case.  The part that bugged the heck out of me was my immediate assumption that the guy was defrauding the system.  I found myself questioning what a handicapped person "looks" like. He didn't look it, physically. The car was too nice, his clothes were too nice, he was too well turned out. Maybe he was at the far end of recovering from a serious accident or surgery that had rendered him needing the card.  I have no way of knowing.

I am not by nature a suspicious person, but I've apparently witnessed enough fakers on this that my mind went there right away. And that is what most disappoints me. I hated finding out the truth about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. 

Dave


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## jimf41 (Jan 5, 2015)

BMWguynw said:


> I hated finding out the truth about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
> 
> Dave



Oh God, another denier. Don't you know that NORAD tracks these two every year. What do you think, stuff just magically appears in my stocking every year. Here's the NORAD website.

http://www.noradsanta.org


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## GreenTea (Jan 5, 2015)

While NOT along the same lines as most of this conversation....I was at a MVC over Thanksgiving.  I came into the villa one day to a voice mail from guest services kindly reminding me that smoking was not allowed onsite, even in the yard area around my patio (first floor)  and that we had been reported by another guest.  I called guest services back and said that neither my husband not I smoked, so I needed to know if it was a teenage girl or a teenage boy....because one of them was clearly about to have their Thanksgiving break ruined.  I was told it was an old man.  Well, we don't have one of those.  

So guest services clearly will investigate complaints about rule breakers, and things are not necessarily what they appear. And old guys who want to sneak a smoke apparently do so in peeping distance of other's villas.


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## DaveNV (Jan 5, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Oh God, another denier. Don't you know that NORAD tracks these two every year. What do you think, stuff just magically appears in my stocking every year. Here's the NORAD website.
> 
> http://www.noradsanta.org





You mean there's still hope?? 

Dave


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## linmcginn (Jan 10, 2015)

*Dogs at NCV*

We were also at NCV Christmas week and were surprise at all the dogs we saw! We saw a total of 4 dogs and none had their  service vests on. My husband talked to the guy with the husky (at the bbq) and asked him if it was a service dog. He hummed and hawed and then said he was. When my husband went to pet him, the dog  snapped at him! 
I was talking to an employee at Costco and she was saying that although dogs are not allowed in the store unless they are service dogs , they cannot legally question someone as to whether or not the dog is indeed a service dog.


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## GreenTea (Oct 28, 2015)

The therapy pets are getting bigger......http://loyaltylobby.com/2015/10/28/...es-huge-dog-on-american-airlines-first-class/


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## KathyPet (Oct 28, 2015)

Rsauer3473 said:


> While I would hate to have to use my Emotional Support Spitting Cobra as an example, it would seem useful to have a standard nationwide labeling for approved service animals. I recognize that others cannot ask the reason for the animal, but a physician etc should have to certify the animal as necessary and an agency should dispense a standard label or patch (like a disabled driver placard.)
> My observation is that there are dozens of types of labels many of which can be ordered online. If someone is using a nonstandard label, I feel a hotel or airline not only has the right but the duty to investigate.
> I do not see the proliferation of service animals stopping until others affected by them start pressuring third parties like hotels and airlines.




I recently saw a story on the CNN website complete with picture of some idiot who brought a python into a restaurant and when told he couldn't bring a snake in told the restaurant manager it was his "service snake".  The restaurant manager backed right off and let him stay with the snake draped around his neck.


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## SandyPGravel (Oct 28, 2015)

KathyPet said:


> I recently saw a story on the CNN website complete with picture of some idiot who brought a python into a restaurant and when told he couldn't bring a snake in told the restaurant manager it was his "service snake".  The restaurant manager backed right off and let him stay with the snake draped around his neck.



A McDonalds in south central Wisconsin stood up to a woman that brought in a baby kangaroo as a service animal.  (I was going to use a different noun than "woman", but I didn't want to get in trouble with the moderators)

http://www.newsweek.com/kangaroos-are-not-service-animals-rules-wisconsin-council-344130


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## Pens_Fan (Oct 28, 2015)

My son wanted to go with me on my work trip to Australia.

He said that we could tell the airline that he was my anxiety pet.

Even seven year olds know the trick.


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## Fern Modena (Oct 28, 2015)

Sorry, but this is not an approved use of the handicap placard if your parents are not with you when you park. The law will assume that you could fetch them and have them wait for you at the lobby or near the (presumably provided) passenger loading zone while you go get your car. Where I live just about all doctors offices have waiting areas near the door or just outside and loading zones. All of them should. 

It is a slippery slope when you allow people to use the placard "because I am picking up my parents, granny, etc.," because many will then not actually be doing so but will figure they are placating the questioner.

I've been known to judge people silently, and it bugs me that I do it, cause I know some people have hidden disabilities. I remember once I saw a "monster truck" and was judging, and then the guy came out, and he could barely walk. 

Fern



curbysplace said:


> Now please consider this scenario:  You said this happened at a hospital.  So is there any chance the guy in the shiny tricked-out BMW picked up his folks or grandparents who "own" the handicap placard?  I ask this because my wife and I are often in a similar position picking up her folks, whether they are at the hospital, doctor's office, at a movie or shopping. They both use walkers and need a lot of assistance getting into the car and getting into and out of any building.  We may race into the building and appear to others that we are abusing the system using their placard for a handicap parking space.  Unless that same person who sees us walk in also sees us 15-20 minutes later walking out with my in-laws and their walkers . . . .


----------



## geekette (Oct 28, 2015)

linmcginn said:


> We were also at NCV Christmas week and were surprise at all the dogs we saw! We saw a total of 4 dogs and none had their  service vests on. My husband talked to the guy with the husky (at the bbq) and asked him if it was a service dog. He hummed and hawed and then said he was. When my husband went to pet him, the dog  snapped at him!
> I was talking to an employee at Costco and she was saying that although dogs are not allowed in the store unless they are service dogs , they cannot legally question someone as to whether or not the dog is indeed a service dog.



why on earth would your husband attempt to pet a working dog?  Everyone knows that you do not mess with service animals without asking.


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## TRAVELING FOOL (Oct 28, 2015)

This past Winter, as we were entering the elevator at Barony in HH, a couple entered with a small shih tzu. This dog was clearly not a service animal. We just came back from MOW and saw another couple with their shih tzu at the resort. We are paying someone to care for our animal while we travel, so I am not happy to see this happening. I went to the desk at Barony to explain what I saw, and they acted surprised and unconcerned. :annoyed:


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## silentg (Oct 29, 2015)

TRAVELING FOOL said:


> This past Winter, as we were entering the elevator at Barony in HH, a couple entered with a small shih tzu. This dog was clearly not a service animal. We just came back from MOW and saw another couple with their shih tzu at the resort. We are paying someone to care for our animal while we travel, so I am not happy to see this happening. I went to the desk at Barony to explain what I saw, and they acted surprised and unconcerned. :annoyed:



There are some timeshares that allow pets, not just service animals. Also lots of pet friendly hotels too. We were in a diner in Miami and I saw a woman feeding her dog from her plate with a fork, sitting up in the booth like a family member! I don't own a dog, but there are some in my family, who would love to take the dog along. There are so many dog day cares or spas that cater to dogs, that they can stay while owners go on vacation. I have also seen those tiny dogs that fit in a purse on planes and in stores. A friend takes her dog shopping, she says as long as he stays in the cart, they don't mind!
Silentg


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## taterhed (Oct 29, 2015)

geekette said:


> why on earth would your husband attempt to pet a working dog? Everyone knows that you do not mess with service animals without asking.



I'm not picking a fight with anyone, please....  A Service dog is a working dog, but not all working dogs are Service dogs.  Service dogs are required to behave and be non-disruptive in a public area.  Working dogs (drug dogs, K9 police etc...) are not required to be social but must be in control and may be muzzled if required.

All SERVICE DOGS (and certified therapy dogs too) should be expected to behave in public as long as they are not overtly provoked. 'Petting the dog' is not normally considered 'overt provocation.' What if it was a child?
Snapping, biting and aggressive growling or barking is a definite no-no for Service dogs. The onus is upon the trainer/handler to control the animal. If an adult or child approaches the service dog and the animal can not be controlled or is disruptive/threatening....the establishment has the right to ask that the animal be removed. This would be a giant red-flag for a REAL service animal. That's one more reason why pets should not be in (non-pet friendly) public lodging.


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## dmharris (Feb 28, 2016)

*What's with all the dogs at Newport Coast*

We were at NCV for 15 nights this month in building 4400 and over that time period there were at least 8 dogs within two buildings on the property.  One was a Siberian husky!  Not a purse dog.  I asked the pet owners, "I didn't know we were allowed to bring dogs...."  And their response was "She/he is a therapy dog, she/he doesn't have his vest on right now."  What a crock!  Some may be therapy dogs, but Real therapy dogs are by their owners 24/7.  Twice I saw a guy with his daughter's therapy dog outside without the daughter.  

I talked to the management and they said there is nothing they can do if they claim it is a therapy dog.  They can't even ask for certification.  And Federal law trumps Board policy.  Twice I saw vans with industrial cleaning hoses extended to the villa to thoroughly clean the units after dogs checked out.  In ONE building!  How much is that adding to maintenance fees.  I also asked if the dogs could be contained to one or two buildings, and the answer is they're afraid of discrimination lawsuits.  

We own two dogs we love dearly and missed them on our three weeks away, but come on!  This is such selfish behavior on the dog owner's part.  I'm fine with true therapy dogs, but in six visits to NCV I've never seen a dog before this visit.  

The word must be out how to beat the system.  And don't get me started on the abuses of the parking system.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 28, 2016)

There was a similar thread about this last year around this time.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221385


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## presley (Feb 28, 2016)

That's interesting because any dog can be certified as a therapy dog. *Service* dogs have special training and are the ones that have the legal rights to enter any place with their disabled human. Sounds like Marriott doesn't understand the law or they are purposely turning a blind eye. Therapy dogs have no more rights than any other dog.


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## GrayFal (Feb 28, 2016)

never mind


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## dmharris (Feb 28, 2016)

presley said:


> That's interesting because any dog can be certified as a therapy dog. *Service* dogs have special training and are the ones that have the legal rights to enter any place with their disabled human. Sounds like Marriott doesn't understand the law or they are purposely turning a blind eye. Therapy dogs have no more rights than any other dog.



I may give them a call and give them this information unless someone here says otherwise.  I love dogs, my concern is the maintenance fees.


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## PamMo (Feb 28, 2016)

Does anyone know a website where I can purchase a vest to "prove" I'm allergic to animal dander, drool, urine (or worse), fleas, mites, etc., and can't be placed in a room that housed someone's pet?


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## dmharris (Feb 28, 2016)

bazzap said:


> The MVC policy is
> "No pets are allowed at Marriott Vacation Club resorts with the exception of guide and assistance dogs."
> so I read that their policy on Emotional Support Animals is - none allowed.
> As Malcolm has so clearly highlighted, this is thankfully an alien concept to us outside of the US and hopefully will remain so.
> I am all for people benefiting from the emotional support of well cared for pets, but to enforce this with legal rights and obligations is just plain ridiculous.



bazzap, can you provide a link to this policy, please?  I can't seem to find it.  TIA


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## taterhed (Feb 28, 2016)

PamMo said:


> Does anyone know a website where I can purchase a vest to "prove" I'm allergic to animal dander, drool, urine (or worse), fleas, mites, etc., and can't be placed in a room that housed someone's pet?



Actually, CA law discusses the health/safety threat to others (below).  You must prove that the health/safety threat is real and not perceived and can not be mitigated by a change in practices/procedures etc....  This accommodation (for the ADA protected and for you) can not be charged to the ADA protected individual or to you either. 

Let me summarize everything below if you don't care to read it :
Service animals are protected by ADA and must be accommodated.  Therapy and ESA animals are not protected in public lodging (timeshares too) and do not have to be admitted.  The lodging can only ask 2 questions of the owner.  The owner can LIE and defeat the system quite easily.  Citizens that observe the animal not adequately supervised, exhibiting dangerous/unsanitary behaviors or being kept isolated from the ADA designee can be reported. (and should be)

The facts:
LA times article--for California too!

In fact, federal laws are conflicted when it comes to ESAs. Some,  including the landmark Americans With Disabilities Act, give no extra  privileges to people with ESAs. Yet other federal laws do, which is why  airlines see so many furry fliers.
The public can call the  federally funded Pacific ADA Center in Oakland (www.adapacific.org;  [800] 949-4232) for guidance on how the laws affect them and their  animals. But here are some general guidelines for travelers:
Service dogs are generally permitted in any public place that safety allows.
Therapy dogs get no particular perks outside the schools and hospitals where they work, except for miniature horses.
At Amtrak  and the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro), ESAs  are treated like conventional pets. That means they're banned on Amtrak  except for certain routes in Illinois. On Metro trains and buses,  they're permitted in carriers so long as they don't require their own  seat.
The federal Air Carrier Access Act, on the other hand,  allows ESAs to fly in the passenger cabin on commercial flights at no  extra charge, usually on the passenger's lap or in a carrier under the  seat. The federal Fair Housing Act permits ESAs in condos or apartments  that ban pets. That law doesn't cover hotels, but many upscale lodgings  accept ESAs, including some that ban conventional pets.
As for the Americans With Disabilities Act, the U.S. Justice Department  decided in 2011 that it should apply only to disabled people  accompanied by service dogs and, "where reasonable," miniature horses.
But  under the ADA, businesses can ask only two questions when trying to  determine whether an animal is truly a service dog: Is it required  because of a disability? What work or task has it been trained to  perform?
_*Facing such complexity, many businesses have decided to just say yes to ESAs.*_


Current Cali law (article format) on Service/Therapy/ESA animals: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-emotional-support-animals-public-places.html


Current Cali law with citations (much longer 21 pgs). Includes the definitions of hazard/danger to others in public spaces: http://www.disabilityrightsca.org/pubs/548301.pdf


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## dougp26364 (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm glad they protect those who have a legitimate need for service and/or therapy animals. I only wish they'd address those who fake service animals with an appropriate fine.


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## KathyPet (Feb 28, 2016)

I think a call to MVCI corporate is in order.  certainly Marriott has sufficient legal staff on hand to research this issue and the issue a clearly worded directive to all club managers to have them discuss with the staff.


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## l0410z (Feb 28, 2016)

I was at Ocean Pointe Christmas week and there must have 4 or 5 service dogs.  I heard one of the women telling the person next to her how easy do this and the website that accomplishes this.  You actually get supporting documentation from a healthcare professional.  I was thinking of saying something to the resort but decided  not too.  The dog did not bother me but with people like that, at some point it will impact the people who really need it.  

I have a  8 month old puppy and I love dogs but taking a dog on vacation is not fair to your follow timeshare vacationers and your dog.  I would not find it relaxing with all the dynamics.


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## aka Julie (Feb 28, 2016)

Who pays the cleaning fee after a service / therapy animal has occupied a timeshare? Hope this is paid by the occupant and not the property and ultimately all owners.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 28, 2016)

aka Julie said:


> Who pays the cleaning fee after a service / therapy animal has occupied a timeshare? Hope this is paid by the occupant and not the property and ultimately all owners.



At resorts that allow pets, there's typically a fee paid by the pet owner. When it comes to a service animal I'm not certain the resorts are allowed to charge a fee so, my assumption is we all pay.


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## bazzap (Feb 29, 2016)

dmharris said:


> bazzap, can you provide a link to this policy, please?  I can't seem to find it.  TIA


Hi Diane, the link I have is from our European .eu version of the website.
If you scroll down through the FAQs or search you will find it.
https://www.marriottvacationclub.eu/about-the-club/faq.shtml
I assume it should be possible to find this somewhere on the .com version of the website too.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 29, 2016)

dmharris said:


> We were at NCV for 15 nights this month in building 4400 and over that time period there were at least 8 dogs within two buildings on the property.  One was a Siberian husky!  Not a purse dog.  I asked the pet owners, "I didn't know we were allowed to bring dogs...."  And their response was "She/he is a therapy dog, she/he doesn't have his vest on right now."  What a crock!  Some may be therapy dogs, but Real therapy dogs are by their owners 24/7.  Twice I saw a guy with his daughter's therapy dog outside without the daughter.
> 
> I talked to the management and they said there is nothing they can do if they claim it is a therapy dog.  They can't even ask for certification.  And Federal law trumps Board policy.  Twice I saw vans with industrial cleaning hoses extended to the villa to thoroughly clean the units after dogs checked out.  In ONE building!  How much is that adding to maintenance fees.  I also asked if the dogs could be contained to one or two buildings, and the answer is they're afraid of discrimination lawsuits.
> 
> ...



Has the whole of the USA gone mad. Thank god this does not happen in Europe - Yet.


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## bazzap (Feb 29, 2016)

MALC9990 said:


> Has the whole of the USA gone mad. Thank god this does not happen in Europe - Yet.


Indeed!
The MVC rules specifically reference only "guide and assistance dogs"
This should be rigorously applied (and does not include so called therapy dogs)
I have included the definition from the Equality and Human Rights Commission below

What is an assistance dog?
Thousands of disabled people rely on an assistance dog to help them with day to day activities that many people take for granted. You may be surprised to learn that it’s not only blind people that are helped by assistance dogs. Assistance dogs are also trained to help people with hearing dif culties, epilepsy, diabetes, physical mobility problems and more.
Assistance dogs carry out a variety of practical tasks for people as well as supporting their independence and con dence.
Assistance dogs are not pets
Assistance dogs:
are highly trained
will not wander freely around the premises
will sit or lie quietly on the  oor next to its owner
are trained to go to the toilet on command and so are unlikely to foul in a public place
are instantly recognisable by the harness or identifying coat they wear.
Every assistance dog user will carry an ID book giving information about the assistance dog and training organisation together with other useful information


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## taterhed (Feb 29, 2016)

bazzap said:


> Indeed!
> The MVC rules specifically reference only "guide and assistance dogs"
> This should be rigorously applied (and does not include so called therapy dogs)
> I have included the definition from the Equality and Human Rights Commission below
> ...




So, Bazzap has posted the guidelines in a form that is easy to read and understand...

If someone has an animal at a resort that is virtually invisible and is being handled with care; I wouldn't waste my time.  But.  If someone has an animal at a resort that is loud, unsanitary, aggressive, being treated obviously as a pet etc....

Grab your trusty cell phone/camera/video, clearly record the behavior including the room number and date/time of the offender.  Show/forward the video/stills of the incident with a nice professional message to the resort manager.  Offer to send it to resort corporate and the local health department, police department and news channels.

I suspect the guest will have a  little bit of explaining to do.  IMHO


I recently confronted a guest smoking on the balcony at a resort.  I reported it.  I don't like smoking in public areas where it's clearly prohibited and routinely address this issue.  Despite being a dog-lover, I will do the same with people whose pets pose a nuisance for others. Key word nuisance.   

Jm2c


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## taterhed (Feb 29, 2016)

dougp26364 said:


> At resorts that allow pets, there's typically a fee paid by the pet owner. When it comes to a service animal I'm not certain the resorts are allowed to charge a fee so, my assumption is we all pay.



US law is quite specific:  the ADA protected individual must be accommodated and can NOT be charged for routine cleaning fees etc... (excessive damage could be charged, but I think it's unlikely)

Also, reverse-accommodations made for non-ADA guests (cleaning after pet for allergies) can not be charged to the non-ADA guest.

So, it's pretty clear:  unless excessive damage/cleaning occurs, the resort must absorb the cost either way.


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## dmharris (Feb 29, 2016)

taterhed said:


> US law is quite specific:  the ADA protected individual must be accommodated and can NOT be charged for routine cleaning fees etc... (excessive damage could be charged, but I think it's unlikely)
> 
> Also, reverse-accommodations made for non-ADA guests (cleaning after pet for allergies) can not be charged to the non-ADA guest.
> 
> So, it's pretty clear:  unless excessive damage/cleaning occurs, the resort must absorb the cost either way.



Thank you to the moderator for merging my new thread into this one.  I searched for a dog thread in the Marriott section but nothing came up before I posted my new one.

The bottom line that should be upsetting to all owners, pet owners too, is the added maintenance cost.  Twice I saw a deep cleaning van (in one building within two weeks) with the long wide hose extending from the van to the villa (I've had this service when our basement flooded and it's not cheap).  So what is that costing us as owners?  

Is anyone from TUG on the board of Newport Coast?  I'd like to know if this has been discussed at the board level with Marriott management there.  I think California is a trend setter and if dogs are now common there, it won't be long that they'll be more common everywhere.  

Yesterday at church the sermon was about complaining and grumbling.     Sorry for being such a sinner.  In public.


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## taterhed (Feb 29, 2016)

dmharris said:


> Thank you to the moderator for merging my new thread into this one.  I searched for a dog thread in the Marriott section but nothing came up before I posted my new one.
> 
> The bottom line that should be upsetting to all owners, pet owners too, is the added maintenance cost.  Twice I saw a deep cleaning van (in one building within two weeks) with the long wide hose extending from the van to the villa (I've had this service when our basement flooded and it's not cheap).  So what is that costing us as owners?
> 
> ...


For those Americans that are covered under the provisions of the ADA, I welcome the minor expense in accommodating them. 

For the shysters foisting their pet animals as service dogs etc when they are really nothing more than pets, shame on you. Bad karma will surely find a home.



sent from my cell phone...


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## dmharris (Feb 29, 2016)

taterhed said:


> For those Americans that are covered under the provisions of the ADA, I welcome the minor expense in accommodating them.
> 
> For the shysters foisting their pet animals as service dogs etc when they are really nothing more than pets, shame on you. Bad karma will surely find a home.



I too have no problem with those true service dogs.  However, I find it hard to believer in two weeks time there were 8 service dogs within two buildings.


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## silentg (Feb 29, 2016)

klpca said:


> I invited a family member on  a trip last year. They wanted to bring their dog - I said sorry, Marriott only allows service dogs. They told me they would just order a "service dog" vest online. It almost caused a fight when I said no, the dog couldn't come along.
> 
> At our home this year, this same dog (who has a "canine good citizen certificate" btw),  presented us with a stinky Christmas present right in the middle of the living room floor, and later growled and snapped at one of my dogs. For me this is why only trained service animals should be allowed to stay in hotels. There's a huge disconnect between the perceived behavior of some dogs and their actual behavior.
> 
> I would have let the front desk know about the dog.



Are you sure it was the dog and not the owner who left the stinky present?
Some people love the dog more than people!
Silentg


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## taterhed (Feb 29, 2016)

Yes, I agree totally. It's good to note, that while the resort cannot ask the individual for additional information, private individuals certainly can. I have no problem shaming someone who illegally brings a pet to a resort.

sent from my cell phone...


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## uwfrog (Feb 29, 2016)

I guess we can expect more and more of this. There was a dog at Frenchman's Cove last week. No way it was a working dog.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 29, 2016)

taterhed said:


> US law is quite specific:  the ADA protected individual must be accommodated and can NOT be charged for routine cleaning fees etc... (excessive damage could be charged, but I think it's unlikely)
> 
> Also, reverse-accommodations made for non-ADA guests (cleaning after pet for allergies) can not be charged to the non-ADA guest.
> 
> So, it's pretty clear:  unless excessive damage/cleaning occurs, the resort must absorb the cost either way.



The resort does not absorb the cost - It goes onto the MFs so the weeks owners absorb the costs. This Therapy animal business is total madness - thankfully the UK has not been infected with this madness.

The following is taken from the Society for Companion Animal Studies WEB Site in the UK.

_Therapy dogs in the UK are not considered to be assistance dogs – this is because an assistance dog is trained to perform specific tasks to help a disabled person and are usually qualified by one of the charitable organisations registered as members of Assistance Dogs UK._
_An assistance dog is legally permitted to accompany its client, owner, or partner, at all times and in all places, within the United Kingdom.  A therapy dog does not have these same legal privileges._

_We are aware that from time to time organisations that are not registered with AD(UK) may claim to offer “public access training and/or jackets” of one kind or another in order to afford your dog access to public spaces such as supermarkets, airports, restaurants, etc.  Please be aware that unless the organisation is registered with AD(UK) or Assistance Dogs International the dog may not be recognised in the UK as an assistance dog.  Any dog that is not recognised as an assistance dog under these terms may be refused entry to public spaces without contravention of the Equality Act 2010 (EA)._

So in the UK Sanity seems to exist still.


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## taterhed (Feb 29, 2016)

MALC9990 said:


> The resort does not absorb the cost - It goes onto the MFs so the weeks owners absorb the costs. This Therapy animal business is total madness - thankfully the UK has not been infected with this madness.
> 
> The following is taken from the Society for Companion Animal Studies WEB Site in the UK.
> 
> ...



Well, I can see this issue has pushed your buttons...

_Malc9990_,   by  "...resort absorbs the cost..."  I clearly meant that the occupants of the room (ADA or otherwise) do not pay for the cleaning etc... unless they are proven to be housing a 'pet' against the rules. Something I'm guessing is rarely pursued these days.  Neither does the 'allergic' guest have to pay for adjustments made to compensate for their inability to occupy the accommodations in the presence of allergens left by the legal or illegal occupant with the pet.  It's a bad deal for the people who actually pay the resorts cleaning fees in either case.

By "resort"  I mean that  'poop' flows downhill and that, ultimately, the owners and/or HOA will end up paying the cost.  

Really, I don't think anyone on the forum is so gullible to think that the corporation is going to absorb the cost of deep-cleaning rooms out of the goodness of their hearts.  But thanks for pointing that out.


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## Superchief (Feb 29, 2016)

I think the best solution for NCV is to reserve the less appealing villas for those with the 'therapy' pets. This will not only keep the other villas free from pet accidents and allergens, but will also deter people from bringing their pets if they want a nice view.


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## cp73 (Feb 29, 2016)

Superchief said:


> I think the best solution for NCV is to reserve the less appealing villas for those with the 'therapy' pets. This will not only keep the other villas free from pet accidents and allergens, but will also deter people from bringing their pets if they want a nice view.




I like that suggestion. Move all the dogs to a section with no views.


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## tschwa2 (Feb 29, 2016)

For those with true ADA needs that would be considered discrimination.


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## dmharris (Feb 29, 2016)

Superchief said:


> I think the best solution for NCV is to reserve the less appealing villas for those with the 'therapy' pets. This will not only keep the other villas free from pet accidents and allergens, but will also deter people from bringing their pets if they want a nice view.



I actually brought that idea up to the management and their response was that they would be sued for discrimination.  Sigh.


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## Superchief (Mar 1, 2016)

dmharris said:


> I actually brought that idea up to the management and their response was that they would be sued for discrimination.  Sigh.



This doesn't need to be a 'public policy', since villa assignments aren't guaranteed in any way. This can be an internal 'guideline' and I'm sure they can come up with supportable reasons. Perhaps they can put a animal walking area near the older villas at the lower level of the resort, and assign them to that area. 

I didn't intent to include true 'service dogs' for this policy, only the 'therapy' pets.


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## enma (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm staying at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach at the moment. Saw a puppy, I mean a puppy max few months old, on the balcony next to me. No way this young puppy was any kind of service dog. Or therapy dog which wouldn't have service dog's rights anyway. I marched straight to the front desk and complained.  They thanked me for reporting it. We'll see what happens if anything. I'll be watching that balcony like a hawk now!


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## taterhed (Mar 7, 2016)

enma said:


> I'm staying at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach at the moment. Saw a puppy, I mean a puppy max few months old, on the balcony next to me. No way this young puppy was any kind of service dog. Or therapy dog which wouldn't have service dog's rights anyway. I marched straight to the front desk and complained. They thanked me for reporting it. We'll see what happens if anything. I'll be watching that balcony like a hawk now!


 
Good for you!

You can be sure they won't report the 'piddles' on the rug... so that means I'm (my kids and family) walking barefoot on soiled rugs for a week!

No pets means no pets.


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## dmharris (Mar 7, 2016)

enma said:


> I'm staying at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach at the moment. Saw a puppy, I mean a puppy max few months old, on the balcony next to me. No way this young puppy was any kind of service dog. Or therapy dog which wouldn't have service dog's rights anyway. I marched straight to the front desk and complained.  They thanked me for reporting it. We'll see what happens if anything. I'll be watching that balcony like a hawk now!



Good for all of us.  I think we have to all be courageous and bold and report any rules infraction, otherwise we all pay more in maintenance fees.  Likewise, I always report things broken so they can be repaired and not incur further more disastrous damage.  It's all about the maintenance fees for me.  And courtesy to the other guests.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Mar 8, 2016)

The resort can take a $1000 pet deposit and inspect the room upon checkout as well


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## suzannesimon (Mar 9, 2016)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> The resort can take a $1000 pet deposit and inspect the room upon checkout as well



I talked to a property manager who said there isn't anything that can be done about it because it is considered discriminatory to ask for proof that a service dog is a service dog.  I think that the best way to handle it is to make the least desirable units available to the people who bring animals.  A couple years of overlooking the garbage cans might make them spend the money for a boarding facility to get a decent view.


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## taterhed (Mar 9, 2016)

suzannesimon said:


> I talked to a property manager who said there isn't anything that can be done about it because it is considered discriminatory to ask for proof that a service dog is a service dog. I think that the best way to handle it is to make the least desirable units available to the people who bring animals. A couple years of overlooking the garbage cans might make them spend the money for a boarding facility to get a decent view.


 
Again:  Help educate Owners, Businesses and Workers (and the rest of the bunch too!):  

*This is the law:*

*Service Animals *

Often businesses such as stores, restaurants, hotels, or theaters have policies that can exclude people with disabilities. For example, a "no pets" policy may result in staff excluding people with disabilities who use dogs as service animals. A clear policy permitting service animals can help ensure that staff are aware of their obligation to allow access to customers using service animals. Under the ADA's revised regulations, the definition of "service animal" is limited to a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability. For example, many people who are blind or have low vision use dogs to guide and assist them with orientation. Many individuals who are deaf use dogs to alert them to sounds. People with mobility disabilities often use dogs to pull their wheelchairs or retrieve items. People with epilepsy may use a dog to warn them of an imminent seizure, and individuals with psychiatric disabilities may use a dog to remind them to take medication. Service members returning from war with new disabilities are increasingly using service animals to assist them with activities of daily living as they reenter civilian life. Under the ADA, "comfort," "therapy," or "emotional support animals" do not meet the definition of a service animal.

Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal's work or the individual's disability prevents him from using these devices. Individuals who cannot use such devices must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls. Businesses may exclude service animals only if 1) the dog is out of control and the handler cannot or does not regain control; or 2) the dog is not housebroken. If a service animal is excluded, the individual must be allowed to enter the business without the service animal. 
In situations where it is not apparent that the dog is a service animal, a business may ask only two questions: 1) is the animal required because of a disability; and 2) what work or task has the animal been trained to perform? No other inquiries about an individual's disability or the dog are permitted. Businesses cannot require proof of certification or medical documentation as a condition for entry.


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## dmharris (Mar 9, 2016)

suzannesimon said:


> I talked to a property manager who said there isn't anything that can be done about it because it is considered discriminatory to ask for proof that a service dog is a service dog.  I think that the best way to handle it is to make the least desirable units available to the people who bring animals.  A couple years of overlooking the garbage cans might make them spend the money for a boarding facility to get a decent view.



Repeating myself from an earlier post:  I asked NCV about assigning certain buildings with inferior views to questionable 'service' dogs and they said the same thing about discriminatory practices.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2016)

dmharris said:


> Repeating myself from an earlier post:  I asked NCV about assigning certain buildings with inferior views to questionable 'service' dogs and they said the same thing about discriminatory practices.



The resort could ask the two questions Taterhed indicated. If the guest stammers on question 2, then the question of if it is a service animal or not become obvious.

The problem is that the resorts don't want to offend anyone and the front desk staff want to avoid confrontation.


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## taterhed (Mar 9, 2016)

The funny part is, the guest who is actually bringing a service animal for assistance will not be embarrassed by the questions. The only ones who will be embarrassed are cheaters.

sent from my cell phone...


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## Seadawg (Mar 9, 2016)

*Agreeing with Taterhed*

We recently stayed at a resort in Sedona and another in Phoenix as guests of friends who are introducing us to timeshares. 

The ADA is very clear on certain things. Discrimination is not on. But those of us with trained certified service dogs do not mind respectful questions.

For the record... Our friends watched my dog while I went for a swim or hot tub... (My dog does not need to be there... as a consideration for the health of others) 

We did have a couple queries, especially if we had the dogs out for a walk on the sidewalks for exercise, but the dogs actions spoke for themselves and we had some very interesting educational discussions.

As for those who are scamming the system with their $150 vest and bogus ID card, somebody really needs to remind these people it is not about taking their dogs, it is about faking a disability. I love my service dog to death, but I wish I did not need her. Then again, things happen in our lives and we do not get to pick the outcomes. 

Respect is a two way street and sadly many service dog owners are getting a bad rap based on the actions of the unscrupulous.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2016)

taterhed said:


> The funny part is, the guest who is actually bringing a service animal for assistance will not be embarrassed by the questions. The only ones who will be embarrassed are cheaters.
> 
> sent from my cell phone...



That is the point. Ask the pointed question they are allowed to ask under the law. The cheaters will be revealed. Though if they actually do anything about it is another story.


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## taterhed (Mar 9, 2016)

Great posts on this thread. Maybe someone will read this and share and make a better decision

sent from my cell phone...


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## rthib (Mar 9, 2016)

The problem is that in California there are professional ADA plaintiffs.   They go from place to place looking for minor infractions or improper questions then sue the heck out a place.
Even those the two questions are allowed, if a front desk person worded them incorrectly then Marriott is open up for lawsuit. Thus most places don't do anything because of this.

Like most good ideas, they are abused on both sides - by folks who take advantage of the law and by those looking to make a buck off a business.


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## SmithOp (Mar 9, 2016)

taterhed said:


> In situations where it is not apparent that the dog is a service animal, a business may ask only two questions: 1) is the animal required because of a disability; and 2) what work or task has the animal been trained to perform? No other inquiries about an individual's disability or the dog are permitted. Businesses cannot require proof of certification or medical documentation as a condition for entry.




This is interesting, recently a friend that uses a dog for siezure warning was asked to provide documentation, and was denied entry to an outdoor swap meet.  Next time we will challenge it.


Sent from my iPad Mini 4 using Tapatalk


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## Bill4728 (Mar 9, 2016)

Just got back from NCV and yes we saw a young dog with a young lady and they did not look like a service dog to my DW and Me.


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## Seadawg (Mar 10, 2016)

*You want to know what is wrong with the Service Dog situation?*

Well sportsfans here it is in living colour... you can get an ESA letter by mail order for pete's sake... 
http://www.freemypaws.com/esa-lette...a1PvAQWV9ys28kcEcVwwvNtamP6Wcuy1MuxoCzvrw_wcB

And for a few more shekels you can get a vest and ID card for "Fluffy".. 
and this kind of stuff makes legitimate service dog handlers lose their minds

This is a complete UNSAT!


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## bazzap (Mar 10, 2016)

Seadawg said:


> Well sportsfans here it is in living colour... you can get an ESA letter by mail order for pete's sake...
> http://www.freemypaws.com/esa-lette...a1PvAQWV9ys28kcEcVwwvNtamP6Wcuy1MuxoCzvrw_wcB
> 
> And for a few more shekels you can get a vest and ID card for "Fluffy"..
> ...


I normally encourage opportunism, but the sooner exploitative companies like this are shut down the better in my opinion!


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## tschwa2 (Mar 10, 2016)

I think even if those without a legitimate disability and a service animal need  and are traveling with their pet,  may stumble on the answers once but as soon as they are asked to leave, they will rehearse the correct answers for the next trip if they haven't on the first trip.

To get a disabled parking plate or place tag, you need to provide documentation and you have to submit it to a government agency (DMV) .  There are abuses there as well but at least it isn't a case of asking anyone who parks in a reserved accessible spot it they are parking there because of a disability and then taking their word for it.  It seems like it would be much fairer to everyone if some kind of identification for the person with the service animal could be provided so they could show if bringing the animal to a place where pets are not allowed.


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## Rene McDaniel (Mar 11, 2016)

We have a rental condo at the beach, and someone who had executed the rental agreement months earlier (which clearly states "no pets"), called me the week before his check-in, called me to say they decided to invite a family member and their significant other who has a service dog to spend the week with them at the beach.

I said I was sorry, we were sympathetic, but the dog could not stay the week in the unit because our unit has plush carpeted floors throughout, not tile.  He then emailed me a barage of information quoting all the ADA laws and how I was in violation of them.  How I could not charge him any extra deposit or cleaning fees, yada yada.  He never once volunteered to what skill or tasks this dog performs --- just, how I can't discriminate against service dogs!  Actually, now that I think about it, I can't remember if it was a "service" dog, or a "therapy" dog (now that I know the difference, thanks to TUG).

Anyways, I just ended it with "I am not a business like a restaurant or even a hotel.  This beach condo is our home, filled with our furniture, and personal belongings.  We have family members who have allergies to pet dander and we have people booked in this unit immediately after you who expect a unit that is smoke-free, pet-hair free, and has no fleas."   So, the answer was still "no".  I just felt like, "go ahead and sue me you idiot, because this does not sound like a legit service dog to me", and took my chances.

I offered to let them out of the contract, even though I knew I would never get it re-rented with check-in scheduled for later that same week.  Guess what?  They came without the "service dog".  What a piece of work!

But as I see the growing numbers of these dogs with their internet-purchased generic "service dog" vests, I can see what the future has in store. Sometime over the next couple of years, I know we will have to replace our warm cushy carpet, with all tile floors just to keep potential damage to a minimum.  Since they can't be charged for extra maintenance they create, then everyone will have to absorb the cost in higher cleaning fees for all.  Lovely.

So that's my two cents worth.


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## Mamianka (Mar 11, 2016)

b2bailey said:


> Having returned from an extensive trip -- I found myself noticing MANY more service dogs than I have in the past. Note to myself was that people are finding ways to get their 'pet' classified so they can bring along. Perhaps just a 'service dog' vest was sufficient in most cases. Thankfully I like dogs and figure this is a trend that reminds me a bit of 'medical' marijuana.



I used to wonder why all of a sudden you see grocery bags with wooden handles/frames to keep them open WHILE you shop - then you take you things out for the checkout, and replace them to pack into your car.  Then - a few months ago I was shopping in my favorite store - and there was a rather flighty/ditzy lady with her small scruffy dog RIDING IN THE CART - and surrounded by her food. I found the manager - and I said there was no ID or vest saying this was in any way a service animal.  He said she is at that store often - and nobody is allowed to ask about the dog - or to even tell her to TAKE IT OUT OF THE CART.  Of course, I see people putting their toddler children into the main part of the cart, too -and God only knows what is on their shoes, clothes, etc.  And yes, I have some vague idea of what probably happens to our food before it is put out for purchase.  But this whole ANIMAL thing is getting way out of control.   A small, skittery dog that has to be riding IN a cart, because he is too small and frightened to walk on the floor?  Most likely, not a service dog - and that DOG needs "emotional support".  A puppy?  Nope.  A PIG?  Maybe in your own home, a comfort - but NOT a recognized service animal I have ever seen out in public.  I know that some small monkeys are taught to assist - but I have never seen one out in public (and this is NY - not in the city, and not up here near Woodstock -  the Land of Granola - fruits, nuts, and flakes - mainly the tourist seeking their lost youth.)  We do NOT have pets - because we travel, for performing and for pleasure.  But if someone DOES have a pet - and wish to travel with it - there are PLENTY of pet-friendly places to take them.  A Marriott - or your local ShopRite - are NO VACATION for that animal - and a repulsion to the rest of us.  Ick.


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## TravlinDuo (Mar 12, 2016)

*Change in MFC Pre-Arrival Email (animals)*

Just recd our pre-arrival email for our upcoming reservation at MFC.  Haven't see the first bullet item in previous communications.




> Some quick reminders as you get ready for your vacation...
> 
> •	Authorized Service and Guide animals are welcome. However, in order to maintain the quality of the villas, family pets are not permitted.
> •	Self parking is complimentary.
> ...



New GM is Scott Derrickson


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## taterhed (Mar 12, 2016)

That's a start!


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## TravlinDuo (Mar 12, 2016)

I agree and I hope that, not only Marriott, but all hotels/timeshares take into consideration travelers who have allergies and asthma conditions and have a select few rooms/villas where travelers with service animals are always placed. Our granddaughters asthma can be triggered by too much animal hair or dander.


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## dmharris (Mar 12, 2016)

Awesome!


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## hcarman (Mar 15, 2016)

We have been also noting a lot more dogs at the vacation clubs we frequent.  At Crystal Shores we saw two units with dogs.  Neither of the dogs had service vests on - nor did they appear to be the types of dogs that are generally service animals - thought I know that varies greatly these days?  They were well behaved, so we did not say anything.  

I also don't have a problem with true service dogs - but it seems that fraud related to this is increasing.  Kind of like the fraud related to all the people using handicap spots that aren't really handicapped.

In our townhome development, we have rules as to how many dogs a resident can have.  Each resident is allowed two dogs.  However, we had a gentleman that was closing on his house and had requested three dogs instead - as all three were his comfort animals.  There is a difference between comfort animal and service animal.  The doctor's note is supposed to say why all three are needed - as one comfort animal is the norm.  However, a fraudulent doctor's note and a threat to sue was all this community needed to roll over and allow him in with three dogs.  Luckily they are well behaved and he picks up after them.

Are hotels also required to allow comfort dogs in - or just service animals?


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## taterhed (Mar 15, 2016)

hcarman said:


> We have been also noting a lot more dogs at the vacation clubs we frequent.  At Crystal Shores we saw two units with dogs.  Neither of the dogs had service vests on - nor did they appear to be the types of dogs that are generally service animals - thought I know that varies greatly these days?  They were well behaved, so we did not say anything.
> 
> I also don't have a problem with true service dogs - but it seems that fraud related to this is increasing.  Kind of like the fraud related to all the people using handicap spots that aren't really handicapped.
> 
> ...


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1866115

No. Not in lodgings etc.  Yes on public transportation.

sent from my cell phone...


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## DEScottzz (Mar 15, 2016)

TravlinDuo said:


> I agree and I hope that, not only Marriott, but all hotels/timeshares take into consideration travelers who have allergies and asthma conditions and have a select few rooms/villas where travelers with service animals are always placed. Our granddaughters asthma can be triggered by too much animal hair or dander.



I stayed at a La Quinta over the weekend. Apparently they are known for being pet-friendly. 

When I checked in, they asked me if I had pets. When I said no, he said that in that case, he would put me well away from the pet area.

I guess that's good.


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## bazzap (Mar 15, 2016)

Well done Colorado.
Colorado The First State To Make Fake Service Animals A Crime – Legislation Introduced!
http://loyaltylobby.com/2016/03/15/...rvice-animals-a-crime-legislation-introduced/


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## Seadawg (Mar 15, 2016)

It is a crime already in Florida to "fake" a service dog... Not only is the general public getting torqued, those of us who live with disabilities and a certified and trained service dog are fed up as well


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## dmharris (Mar 15, 2016)

Seadawg said:


> It is a crime already in Florida to "fake" a service dog... Not only is the general public getting torqued, those of us who live with disabilities and a certified and trained service dog are fed up as well



I don't blame you.  I am going to send this thread to the Newport Coast GM as soon as I can get an email address.


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## taterhed (Mar 15, 2016)

dmharris said:


> I don't blame you.  I am going to send this thread to the Newport Coast GM as soon as I can get an email address.



*J. Conor Hare*



Front Desk *Manager* at *Marriott* *Newport* *Coast* *Villas*


May still be the front desk manager (not GM).  If it helps.


Suggest you go on Tripadvisor and write a good review--highlighting your concerns about the non-service animals in plain sight at a 'no-pets' resort. 



Marriott Corporate Customer dept responds to reviews there.  I think you'll get their attention with sufficient evidence and polite, educated comments.


JMHO


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## dmharris (Mar 15, 2016)

Thanks, good idea.  when I get time ...


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## mtforeman (Mar 23, 2016)

taterhed said:


> Again:  Help educate Owners, Businesses and Workers (and the rest of the bunch too!):
> 
> *This is the law:*
> 
> ...



It is worth including this part from ADA also, however:

"Q4. If someone's dog calms them when having an anxiety attack, does this qualify it as a service animal?
A. It depends. The ADA makes a distinction between psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals. If the dog has been trained to sense that an anxiety attack is about to happen and take a specific action to help avoid the attack or lessen its impact, that would qualify as a service animal. However, if the dog's mere presence provides comfort, that would not be considered a service animal under the ADA.

Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?
A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program."

As such, it does become much more difficult.  If someone is diagnosed with a legitimate panic disorder by a doctor, and can claim that the dog is self-taught to assist in avoiding panic disorders, it would qualify as a service dog.


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## mtforeman (Mar 23, 2016)

For example, I have a very close friend who has a severe panic disorder.  She acquired a dog who is trained if she makes a particular noise to run to her and begin licking her face.

Now, she hasn't ever used this dog as a therapy dog, partially because the dog isn't fully trained for the public and to avoid distractions from others, but she has been encouraged to do so, and it would qualify.  So, she doesn't take it out with her or on trips.

However, I can see where in some cases it would make sense.

Of course, the very fact that she hasn't done it yet since she doesn't feel her dog is fully trained enough shows that she doesn't want to abuse the system.


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## taterhed (Mar 23, 2016)

With all respect, a service animal is a service animal. Someone may train their dog and qualify to have the dog registered as a service animal, but they can't arbitrarily designate a dog as a service dog on their own. Additionally, a therapy dog is not protected by ADA for  housing purposes. 

sent from my cell phone...


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## Beefnot (Mar 24, 2016)

mtforeman said:


> For example, I have a very close friend who has a severe panic disorder. She acquired a dog who is trained if she makes a particular noise to run to her and begin licking her face.
> 
> Now, she hasn't ever used this dog as a therapy dog, partially because the dog isn't fully trained for the public and to avoid distractions from others, but she has been encouraged to do so, and it would qualify. So, she doesn't take it out with her or on trips.
> 
> ...



They should just sell a pocket-sized licking machine that feels like a real dog's tongue.


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## Seadawg (Mar 24, 2016)

A Pocket size licking machine? Really? That response demonstrates a complete lack of awareness and understanding about the complexities of the disabilities that can be helped by a service dog.


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## WBP (Mar 24, 2016)

*How about a Service Pig?*

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/30/travel/emotional-support-pig-booted-flight/

Unofficial mascot of Diamond Resorts? You pick who, the pig, or its handler with tank top and tattoos.


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## mav (Mar 25, 2016)

WJS said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/30/travel/emotional-support-pig-booted-flight/
> 
> Unofficial mascot of Diamond Resorts? You pick who, the pig, or its handler with tank top and tattoos.



 Oh, my, as someone who flies way over 100,000  miles per year I've seen a lot of  pigs on planes, but not a 4 legged one.


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## taterhed (Mar 25, 2016)

Beefnot said:


> They should just sell a pocket-sized licking machine that feels like a real dog's tongue.


 


Seadawg said:


> A Pocket size licking machine? Really? That response demonstrates a complete lack of awareness and understanding about the complexities of the disabilities that can be helped by a service dog.


 

Truthfully, I think many people are confused and uneducated about the differences and abilities of Service Animals, Therapy Animals, Emotional Support, Comfort etc..... Just because we can't see or don't understand a person's disability--that doesn't make it any less real.

I confess, even my post was wrong:



> ......Someone may train their dog and qualify to have the dog registered as a service animal, but they can't arbitrarily designate a dog as a service dog on their own.....


 
In fact, you can arbitrarily register any animal you choose (lying may be required YMMV) and have fancy papers whisked to you overnight. (at any number of anecdotal sites or several 'real' ones) It's a mockery.  

But, there is no law against shaming the people who are clearly abusing the system.


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## Beefnot (Mar 30, 2016)

Seadawg said:


> A Pocket size licking machine? Really? That response demonstrates a complete lack of awareness and understanding about the complexities of the disabilities that can be helped by a service dog.



I have acute awareness and understanding, just very little appreciation for such "treatment" that includes animals in airplanes or public establishments.


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## Cookie21 (Mar 30, 2016)

Currently at The Hilton Waikoloa Village.  Nice resort. I saw a lady with a small dog; I think it was a Yorkshire Terrier. Not a problem for me to stay at pet friendly resorts. What got me was that she had her dog in the kiddie sand beach pool! Yup!


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## Seadawg (Mar 30, 2016)

As a service dog handler I a disgusted to hear that some lady had her dog in the kids play areas. 

It is these kind of behaviours that make me furious as many will form impressions about service dogs an their handlers based on these kinds of things. Not cool.


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## aka Julie (Mar 30, 2016)

*Great Dane on plane (sounds like a movie title)*

We recently flew out of Los Angeles and saw a Great Dane at the gate with a vest on.  Neither the man nor woman were visually impaired, so not sure what kind of service dog it was.  I thought OMG, surely they must have to have a seat for the dog.

They boarded first and when we got on board we didn't see the dog.

We were lucky enough to have first class seats.  After takeoff, all of a sudden I saw the dog's head pop up.  He was lying on the floor under their feet.  They were in the first row (bulkhead) in first class.

Meal time came and they both ate their meals.  Then I saw the woman talking with the flight attendant and all of a sudden a second meal was given to the man.  They began to feed the dog some of the beef from the meal.  This shocked me as surely a "working" dog shouldn't be eating that kind of food.  Would have thought if the dog needed to be fed that they would have brought along some dry dog food for him.  It was about a 5 hour flight.

We ran into some bad weather prior to landing and it got pretty bumpy.  The dog stood up at that point and they seemed to be comforting him.

It really was a little bizarre.


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## Rene McDaniel (Mar 30, 2016)

I feel for Seadawg and others who truly have a medical need service dogs, or even comfort dogs.  Unfortunately, those who try to pass off family pets as service dogs are making things worse for those who do try to abide by the rules.  Unfortunately, I've seen one too many dogs with fake "service dogs" vests on resort grounds growling, barking, yipping, and peeing all over the place.  I wish there were a better way to deal with the fakes.  But in our highly litigious society, no body wants a lawsuit.
----- Rene


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## Seadawg (Mar 30, 2016)

AKA Julie, you should be concerned about the behaviour you saw...

As a handler, feeding the dog an "airline" meal is very suspect on a good day... there might have been some very extenuating circomstances, but I do not leave without water, portable dish, meals, and poop bags when travelling.... Your service dog's needs have to be part of your daily routine... and forgeting their food during a travel day is suspect...

Also we have our dogs on a controlled intake of food and water (ie their usual food and water, and if in doubt, bottled water) Why? Lets just put it this way... Upset service dog stomachs can play out a couple of ways and neither are real popular with the other passengers....


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## aka Julie (Mar 30, 2016)

Seadawg said:


> AKA Julie, you should be concerned about the behaviour you saw...
> 
> As a handler, feeding the dog an "airline" meal is very suspect on a good day... there might have been some very extenuating circomstances, but I do not leave without water, portable dish, meals, and poop bags when travelling.... Your service dog's needs have to be part of your daily routine... and forgeting their food during a travel day is suspect...
> 
> Also we have our dogs on a controlled intake of food and water (ie their usual food and water, and if in doubt, bottled water) Why? Lets just put it this way... Upset service dog stomachs can play out a couple of ways and neither are real popular with the other passengers....



That's what I thought too. It got pretty rough before we landed and I was thinking that since the dog seemed to be anxious something might come up or out. I have to say he didn't make a peep the entire time.


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## Wally3433 (Mar 31, 2016)

Cookie21 said:


> Currently at The Hilton Waikoloa Village.  Nice resort. I saw a lady with a small dog; I think it was a Yorkshire Terrier. Not a problem for me to stay at pet friendly resorts. What got me was that she had her dog in the kiddie sand beach pool! Yup!



Well, hopefully they kicked those kids out with their dirty diapers.  Poor little Yorkie.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Mar 31, 2016)

Last week, I saw a "service" dog at Mountainside, clearly marked with the red vest. The owner was clearly embarrassed when I looked at the dog and tried to get away before I made some nice comment about how cute it was.  It was a big labrador...sigh.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2016)

SkyBlueWaters said:


> Last week, I saw a "service" dog at Mountainside, clearly marked with the red vest. The owner was clearly embarrassed when I looked at the dog and tried to get away before I made some nice comment about how cute it was.  It was a big labrador...sigh.



Labs are the most common service dog out there.


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## samara64 (Apr 1, 2016)

We are staying at NCV for spring break. I was in the balcony yesterday and there was a dog in front of our Villa. The dog did its business in front of the balcony but the owners did not pick it up. Later one of them came and picked it up. I think the owners are in a bottom floor unit in our building.

Marriott must find a way to verify if the dog is a real service dog. This one did not look like one.

Also we were in FSA during Thanksgiving and there was a dog there that came into our unit. Not sure if they allow any dogs there.

More and more people are doing it since they get away with it.


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## suzannesimon (Apr 1, 2016)

If we need handicap parking permits when we are disabled, I don't know why there isn't permitting that is required for official service animals.  It doesn't seem like a difficult law to enforce.


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## bazzap (Apr 1, 2016)

suzannesimon said:


> If we need handicap parking permits when we are disabled, I don't know why there isn't permitting that is required for official service animals.  It doesn't seem like a difficult law to enforce.


Absolutely right.


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## presley (Apr 1, 2016)

samara64 said:


> Also we were in FSA during Thanksgiving and there was a dog there that came into our unit. Not sure if they allow any dogs there.


All dogs are allowed at FSA if an owner or renter is staying there. They don't allow exchangers to bring dogs.


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## GreenTea (Apr 1, 2016)

Good for CO! http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2...ze-fake-service-animals-passes-colorado-house


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## samara64 (Apr 2, 2016)

We need a law like this in all the states. I hear same issue for condo rental where the owner states NO PETS but the renter has an "emotional support dog" that does not count as a pet.


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## bazzap (Apr 12, 2016)

Perhaps everywhere should have similar posters?
http://elliott.org/thats-ridiculous-2/please-dont-try-pass-off-pet-service-animal/


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