# Coylumbridge Scotland Purchase



## Huskerpaul (Oct 28, 2022)

I am now an official member of HGVC.  My purchase of resale weeks from Coylumbridge Scotland is final and my account and weeks are setup and active.  I could not be more happy with my purchase and the sales process with Coylumbridge and Sue.Smith@hgv.com.  I asked her to put together a package of five platinum 2BD weeks that totaled 56,000 club points so that I could qualify for Elite Premier status, which she found for me.

I bought two weeks in the original lodges that have lower MF (£663.97 in 2022) for £3,400 and £4,500.  The other three weeks are in the new lodges with higher MF (£698.33 in 2022) for £3,500 x 2 and £4,500. These were the five cheapest weeks she had for resale.  I did not bother trying to negotiate lower prices as I wanted to move quickly to take advantage of the new Prime Minster’s effect on the exchange rate.  I also had to pay £195 per contract in legal fees.  I also had to pay the club annual fee of £144 and one enrollment fee of £298 to enroll all five weeks I purchased into HGVC.  Usually, you have to pay this for each week, but since I was a new member to HGVC I only had to pay one, which is a nice savings.

My final total was all-in was £20,817.  When I called with my Amex Aspire card to pay on 10/24 the charge to my card was $23,437.87.  So my exchange rate was about $1.126, which I’m very happy with.  Total purchase cost per point of a little under $0.42.  I had a little trouble getting Elite Premier status active, but I think that is because I got into my account before it was completely setup.  The supervisor I talked to insisted I did not quality for EP, so I sent the various emails I had from Scotland showing the sale counted towards Elite status.   A couple hours later the supervisor called to apologize and say she was wrong and that my status would be updated that afternoon, which it was. She said she learned something new and was very nice about the whole thing.

Thanks to the TUG family for all the learning I have done that made this possible.  Special thanks to @Lampshade for their post “Craigendarroch Lodges Purchase” on buying from Scotland and @HuskerATL whose responses to that post provided a wealth of knowledge, including how to cancel your week online to get your Club points, which I have already used.  I now have reservations for Elara at Spring Break and MarBrisa next summer.  Thanks again TUG!


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

Excellent Huskerpaul....welcome to the family.  Now time to plan those vacations and put that EP status to use...congrats!


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## Huskerpaul (Oct 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Excellent Huskerpaul....welcome to the family.  Now time to plan those vacations and put that EP status to use...congrats!


We Huskers need to stick together during our current time of wandering the CFB wilderness =)


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> We Huskers need to stick together during our current time of wandering the CFB wilderness =)


we are no longer wandering....we are just plain lost....


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## dayooper (Oct 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> we are no longer wandering....we are just plain lost....



As a Michigan fan, it will get better. We spent 10 years plus lost (Rich Rod, Hoke and the first years of Harbaugh) and it sucks. We still aren't completely back, but at least we can see the path, now. Hire the right coach and support him and you will get back to that path. 

I hated when you went away from the option. When I though triple option, I thought Nebraska. You all lost your identity.


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I hated when you went away from the option. When I though triple option, I thought Nebraska. You all lost your identity.


with the right athletes, this type of offense will still work but everyone want the spread and pro style.  I am from Nebraska and went to college at Nebraska so this pains me to say but Michigan has a whole different draw for athletes.  I just don't think Nebraska can get the same caliber of athletes any more.  The population is small so they depend on imports but why would a good import go there? I think we have many painful years ahead....ugh... we will probably be the next Boise State who pops up here and there, a little salty, but just can't maintain it.


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## dayooper (Oct 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> with the right athletes, this type of offense will still work but everyone want the spread and pro style.  I am from Nebraska and went to college at Nebraska so this pains me to say but Michigan has a whole different draw for athletes.  I just don't think Nebraska can get the same caliber of athletes any more.  The population is small so they depend on imports but why would a good import go there? I think we have many painful years ahead....ugh... we will probably be the next Boise State who pops up here and there, a little salty, but just can't maintain it.



Disagree to a certain extent. Nebraska has to find its niche. It needs to find a different style than anybody else and recruit the players to fit the system. It’s how Pittsburg and NE built their teams with the 3-4 defense. The drafted quality players that didn’t fit anybody else’s system. Nebraska needs to find that niche and give opportunities to players that might not normally get the opportunity.

Now I have no clue what that might be. I’ve been coaching middle school for 20 years now running a triple option offense so I have no clue what’s new out there.


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## Huskerpaul (Oct 28, 2022)

I went to Jr High and High School in Nebraska and well as graduated from UNL.  One has to believe that it can't possibly get any worse for the Cornhuskers.  The sad thing is I thought we hired the right coach and then ...... disaster.


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

dayooper said:


> triple option offense


I was a half back in high school....we ran it...pretty successfully.  The Nebraska tradition still gets recruits but the mid-2000s are getting further and further into history. I agree that they need to find the right mix for them and I was hoping Frost would bring back more of the old school Nebraska.  We will see....it will still be painful for a while but I will still watch, cuss, and maybe drink a little more...


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

Now...if you want to talk volleyball.....it is a different story.  Maybe we should be recruiting volleyball players for the football team...


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## dayooper (Oct 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I was a half back in high school....we ran it...pretty successfully.  The Nebraska tradition still gets recruits but the mid-2000s are getting further and further into history. I agree that they need to find the right mix for them and I was hoping Frost would bring back more of the old school Nebraska.  We will see....it will still be painful for a while but I will still watch, cuss, and maybe drink a little more...



I love the split veer! I was sad when Georgia Tech stopped running it. Our 7th and 8th graders could watch their games and pick out the plays! Harder to find Army, Navy and AF games on TV.


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## HuskerATL (Oct 28, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I love the split veer! I was sad when Georgia Tech stopped running it. Our 7th and 8th graders could watch their games and pick out the plays! Harder to find Army, Navy and AF games on TV.


I also think the fast D lines have made it hard to run the option offense but QB that can run it well, is still hard to defend.  I loved the play against Ohio State when UNL ran an option to the running back who then had an option to the receiver who came all the way around....5 options...fullback, QB run, QB pass, running back, and then receiver...


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## spdhanr (Oct 29, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> I am now an official member of HGVC.  My purchase of resale weeks from Coylumbridge Scotland is final and my account and weeks are setup and active.  I could not be more happy with my purchase and the sales process with Coylumbridge and Sue.Smith@hgv.com.  I asked her to put together a package of five platinum 2BD weeks that totaled 56,000 club points so that I could qualify for Elite Premier status, which she found for me.
> 
> I bought two weeks in the original lodges that have lower MF (£663.97 in 2022) for £3,400 and £4,500.  The other three weeks are in the new lodges with higher MF (£698.33 in 2022) for £3,500 x 2 and £4,500. These were the five cheapest weeks she had for resale.  I did not bother trying to negotiate lower prices as I wanted to move quickly to take advantage of the new Prime Minster’s effect on the exchange rate.  I also had to pay £195 per contract in legal fees.  I also had to pay the club annual fee of £144 and one enrollment fee of £298 to enroll all five weeks I purchased into HGVC.  Usually, you have to pay this for each week, but since I was a new member to HGVC I only had to pay one, which is a nice savings.
> 
> ...


I am interested in buying 2 purchases and in conversation with Sue but she is suggesting red and gold weeks saying they re better price than platinum but says they are all 11,200 points. Any suggestions if I should bite it or wait for platinum weeks?


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## GT75 (Oct 30, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> Any suggestions if I should bite it or wait for platinum weeks?


Factor the MFs into your decision.


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## HuskerATL (Oct 30, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> Any suggestions if I should bite it or wait for platinum weeks?



yes, like GT75 said, look that the whole package. Purchase price and then long term MFs. One may be a bit higher but you get more points for the same amount of MFs between two units that are same but different seasons so the long term MF/point is cheaper for a platinum than a gold/silver/bronze.   HGVC doesn't use "red" as a season. Red is equivalent to platinum.  In HGV, there are bronze, silver, gold, and platinum.  Try for a platinum for the best MF/point cost.


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## Lodemia (Oct 30, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> I am interested in buying 2 purchases and in conversation with Sue but she is suggesting red and gold weeks saying they re better price than platinum but says they are all 11,200 points. Any suggestions if I should bite it or wait for platinum weeks?


These are likely higher bedroom counts with higher maintenance fees.  For what it’s worth, buying a gold and saving $3650 is worth it to me (Last time I did the comparison) The payback is 18+ years for breakeven at a 200GBP difference in yearly fees.


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## HuskerATL (Oct 30, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> buying a gold


also, factor in use.  Some people like the gold weeks more than platinum weeks for homeweek use.


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## Lodemia (Oct 30, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> also, factor in use.  Some people like the gold weeks more than platinum weeks for homeweek use.


Yeah, my wife and I were able to get back to back weeks - one in Craig and one in Coyl, the two weeks surrounding our anniversary. we plan on taking advantage of that next year (25 years for us!)


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## HuskerATL (Oct 30, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> back to back weeks


nice.  we have back to back weeks in the same lodge in Craig....and during the Highland games times of the year.  someday we will get there.


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## Huskerpaul (Oct 30, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> I am interested in buying 2 purchases and in conversation with Sue but she is suggesting red and gold weeks saying they re better price than platinum but says they are all 11,200 points. Any suggestions if I should bite it or wait for platinum weeks?



The Coylumbridge info I got listed both the RCI season and the HGVC season.  So Red would be RCI and Gold HGVC.  A Gold 2BD is worth 8,000 HGVC points if you cancel the reservation and a platinum is 11,200. The Maintenance Fees are the same for both, but purchase price of HGV gold weeks are cheaper than platinum (not high season and get fewer points).  I think the math can work out for both to be good options.  Probably not so for Silver or Bronze weeks.  Personally, I was focused on getting to 54,400 total for EP status all in one purchase and the math of adding in gold weeks to my package instead platinum was more complex when looking at what was available.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 30, 2022)

If you plan to rent the unit out via the resort, having platinum will earn higher rental fees during summer and event weeks. Theoretically the units will have higher trading power in II if you decide to trade for II resorts (see below for weeks demand in II).  It will also sell easier when you try to unload.  The Scotland resorts have silver and low season VOIs that are at auction because no one wants them.





This is for Craig. BTW...I don't see Coylumbridge listed. Perhaps you need to reach out to II to see if they trade Coylumbridge.









						Look at this beautiful resort I found on IntervalWorld.com.
					

Hilton Grand Vacations Club at Craigendarroch Lodges, Ballater, Aberdeenshire AB35 5XA, U.K.



					www.intervalworld.com


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## spdhanr (Nov 1, 2022)

Sorry. We can trade in II with Craig? Not familiar with intervalworld.com


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## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

Dear Owner,

We write to you today to share that Hilton Grand Vacations will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club, effective 1 February 2023. In addition, we are also ending our Club Affiliation Agreement by 31 December 2023. We understand that as an Owner at this property and Hilton Grand Vacations Club Member you may have questions.

Please read below for a summary of the management change and where you can find more information:

About the Situation & Your Timeshare
HGV is committed to working with the Coylumbridge Owners Committee to help facilitate a smooth management transition. Please know that your timeshare ownership interest, including access to your unit and week, will stay the same and your contract will remain with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club. In addition, there will be no disruption in service delivery for anyone visiting the property prior to the management change.

If you own a timeshare at other properties affiliated with Hilton Grand Vacations Club, the change in management at Coylumbridge will not impact these vacation ownership interests. We kindly ask that continue making maintenance fee payments as you do now, including your 2023 payment.

Voluntary Club Membership
If you have no remaining Points, and do not wish to renew your Club membership, please disregard your 2023 renewal notice. We will cancel your membership in January 2023. Once your Club membership ends, you may be able to join another exchange program, depending on which exchange company your resort is affiliated with. A new contact number will be provided by the new management entity once determined.

If you have remaining ClubPoints, Saved Points or Reserved Points, you will still be able to use them in 2023 per the terms and conditions of the HGV Club program, as long as you renew your Club membership by 31 December 2022. This will ensure you have full Club access, including Open Season reservations.

If you are a Member with Elite Status and you have other HGV intervals, your Elite status will continue through 31 December 2023. It is anticipated that HGV will determine within the next 90 days if your Elite status will continue beyond 31 December 2023. Hilton Grand Vacations Club will communicate with you once a determination has been made.

Starting 1 November 2022, we will no longer enroll new memberships with Coylumbridge intervals and we will not accept weeks for exchange in the Club for 2024 and beyond. If you exchange your 2023 week(s) for Points, you will need to use all your Points before 31 December 2023.

Where Can I Find More Information?
If you have any questions, please email the Coylumbridge Owners Committee at secretary@coylumbridge.info. You may also contact HGV at coylumbridge‑inquiries@hgv.com.

Thank you for your continued loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations. We are ready to serve you.

Sincerely,
Hilton Grand Vacations


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

Dear Owner,

We write to you today to share that Hilton Grand Vacations will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club, effective 1 February 2023. In addition, we are also ending our Club Affiliation Agreement by 31 December 2023. We understand that as an Owner at this property and Hilton Grand Vacations Club Member you may have questions.

Please read below for a summary of the management change and where you can find more information:

*About the Situation & Your Timeshare*
HGV is committed to working with the Coylumbridge Owners Committee to help facilitate a smooth management transition. Please know that your timeshare ownership interest, including access to your unit and week, will stay the same and your contract will remain with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club. In addition, there will be no disruption in service delivery for anyone visiting the property prior to the management change.

If you own a timeshare at other properties affiliated with Hilton Grand Vacations Club, the change in management at Coylumbridge will not impact these vacation ownership interests. We kindly ask that continue making maintenance fee payments as you do now, including your 2023 payment.

*Voluntary Club Membership*
If you have no remaining Points, and do not wish to renew your Club membership, please disregard your 2023 renewal notice. We will cancel your membership in January 2023. Once your Club membership ends, you may be able to join another exchange program, depending on which exchange company your resort is affiliated with. A new contact number will be provided by the new management entity once determined.

If you have remaining ClubPoints, Saved Points or Reserved Points, you will still be able to use them in 2023 per the terms and conditions of the HGV Club program, as long as you renew your Club membership by 31 December 2022. This will ensure you have full Club access, including Open Season reservations.

If you are a Member with Elite Status and you have other HGV intervals, your Elite status will continue through 31 December 2023. It is anticipated that HGV will determine within the next 90 days if your Elite status will continue beyond 31 December 2023. Hilton Grand Vacations Club will communicate with you once a determination has been made.

Starting 1 November 2022, we will no longer enroll new memberships with Coylumbridge intervals and we will not accept weeks for exchange in the Club for 2024 and beyond. If you exchange your 2023 week(s) for Points, you will need to use all your Points before 31 December 2023.

*Where Can I Find More Information?*
If you have any questions, please email the Coylumbridge Owners Committee at secretary@coylumbridge.info. You may also contact HGV at coylumbridge‑inquiries@hgv.com.

Thank you for your continued loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations. We are ready to serve you.

Sincerely,
Hilton Grand Vacations


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## MattnTricia (Nov 1, 2022)

Definitely bad news for those of  us that are Coylumbridge Owners

Very sad day!!!!


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Wow!  what the what...

That answers the question if any affiliates would leave HGV....ugh..

it does sound like Coylumbridge owners can stay in HGV and use the points, right? but, the elite eligible points would  end next year....


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

Yeah very bad news :-(


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## ChrisZXWJ (Nov 1, 2022)

I just saw this in the Facebook group - I read it that Coylumbridge owners can no longer trade in their week for ClubPoints starting in 2024, no?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 1, 2022)

So, what is the backstory behind this? Resort not up to standard? Something else?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> Voluntary Club Membership
> If you have no remaining Points, and do not wish to renew your Club membership, please disregard your 2023 renewal notice. We will cancel your membership in January 2023. Once your Club membership ends, you may be able to join another exchange program, depending on which exchange company your resort is affiliated with. A new contact number will be provided by the new management entity once determined.



it sounds like owners will have the option to continue in HGV but without elite status


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> So, what is the backstory behind this? Resort not up to standard? Something else?


The management information doesn’t say and it puzzles me


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> So, what is the backstory behind this? Resort not up to standard? Something else?



Mostly tongue and cheek, but I'm going to blame HGV Max.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 1, 2022)

Please urgently check your email and rescind if there is any chance you're within the grace period.  According to the Coylumbridge FB page, HGVC have just sent an email to all owners that they are terminating their agreement with Coylumbridge.  Does not appear to impact Dunkeld or Craigendarroch.  Quite a shocker.


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## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> it does sound like Coylumbridge owners can stay in HGV and use the points, right?



Only 2023, as per:

> Starting 1 November 2022, we will no longer enroll new memberships with Coylumbridge intervals and we will not accept weeks for exchange in the Club for 2024 and beyond. If you exchange your 2023 week(s) for Points, you will need to use all your Points before 31 December 2023.

It'll be a regular timeshare as of January 1st, 2024, and no HGVC points granted. 
---

I wonder what happened there. Did Coylumbridge push their Elite eligible sales too much, to the point they pissed HGVC proper? Or maybe they simply don't need these affiliate resorts since they acquired DRI for a big buck, and are working on an international HGV Max? Who knows.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> new memberships


This sounds like new memberships but maybe existing memberships can continue.  It sounds like you can since they are offering to pay club fees.


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> it sounds like owners will have the option to continue in HGV but without elite status



That's not how I read this.



> Starting 1 November 2022, we will no longer enroll new memberships with Coylumbridge intervals and we will not accept weeks for exchange in the Club for 2024 and beyond. If you exchange your 2023 week(s) for Points, you will need to use all your Points before 31 December 2023.



It seems that they are not exchanging anymore weeks in 2024 (and no more weeks in 2023). You have to use your your points by Dec 2023 tells me they will not be part of the club in any way after 2023.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Coylumbridge Lodges leaving HGVC
					

Dear Owner,  We write to you today to share that Hilton Grand Vacations will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club, effective 1 February 2023. In addition, we are also ending our Club Affiliation Agreement by 31 December 2023. We understand that as an Owner at this...




					tugbbs.com


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> It seems that they are not exchanging anymore weeks in 2024 (and no more weeks in 2023). You have to use your your points by Dec 2023 tells me they will not be part of the club in any way after 2023.


oh, so if you have points in 2023, they can pay club fees for that year but not after?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

Would love to know who drove the change the HOA or HVC. I heard several years ago on TUG that there were concerns about reserves. Perhaps it was not keeping up with Hilton standards?


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## MattnTricia (Nov 1, 2022)

Crappy part is some of us already have 2024 weeks deposited in to HGVC.

Going to be fun to see how they deal with this


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

MattnTricia said:


> Crappy part is some of us already have 2024 points deposited in to HGVC


This is why I was interpreting this to think that existing members could stay in, if they want but new members could not join.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Would love to know who drove the change the HOA or HVC. I heard several years ago on TUG that there were concerns about reserves. Perhaps it was not keeping up with Hilton standards?


Apparently a 100% HGVC decision with even the Coylumbridge staff and HOA just find out today.  Yikes!


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> Apparently a 100% HGVC decision


any back story?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

@ocdb8r How do you know this?


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## spdhanr (Nov 1, 2022)

Was in the process of buying at Coylumbridge. Confused what to do


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> Was in the process of buying at Coylumbridge. Confused what to do


I wouldn't buy there....that is for sure but may want to hold tight to see what happens to the others.  We have not heard anything about Craig.


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> Was in the process of buying at Coylumbridge. Confused what to do



If you bought for points and are able to stop the process, I would stop.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @ocdb8r How do you know this?


Called the sales office....this is the line they gave.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> If you bought for points and are able to stop the process, I would stop.


I wouldn't continue even if you bought primarily to stay there. Certainly there is a fire sale coming....


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## Judi Kozlowski (Nov 1, 2022)

FRAUD ALERT  COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES
https://www.higvc.co.uk/resorts/scotland-coylumbridge.php..


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

I am going to blame Apollo/DRI. This seems like very un-HGVC like behavior; disappointing for those owners.

If they can do this here. They can take away Elite and points privileges anywhere. Gives me second thoughts on buying developer MAX or other $$. A wake-up call that beyond your deeded week, they can take away MAX benefits anytime.


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## phil1ben (Nov 1, 2022)

This does create a caveat to the concept of buying where the maintenance fees are cheapest "because it does not really matter where you own". I assume that all of the "affiliates" have the ability (after satisfying any conditions in the applicable Declaration) to terminate the management agreement with HGVC. Other than affiliates can any of the other properties be extricated from HGVC without a vote of the owners?


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## ocdb8r (Nov 1, 2022)

Judi Kozlowski said:


> FRAUD ALERT  COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES
> https://www.higvc.co.uk/resorts/scotland-coylumbridge.php..


Totally unrelated; this is legitimate.

I have also called Craigendarroch and HGVC there have indicated a note will be going out to all other Scotland owners confirming that this change does NOT affect Dunkeld or Craigendarroch.  They couldn't say anything further.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Judi Kozlowski said:


> FRAUD ALERT  COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES
> https://www.higvc.co.uk/resorts/scotland-coylumbridge.php..


The fraud alert seems to be something else versus the email that was just shared but maybe it is the same.


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

What about the other Scotland resorts, for now they remain with Hilton but who’s to say that Hilton won’t terminate those agreements too?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

or Florida Gulf or Grand Pacific or Strand or Grand Islander or Bay Club...

OTOH...it may have to do with the quality of the resort. I heard a few years ago that there was concern about the reserves and needs for upgrades.


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## holdaer (Nov 1, 2022)

I wonder if Britannia Hotels let the HGV management agreement expire and now they are taking over the management of the property as a cost savings move.


*Amenities Notification: *As of December 19, 2018, the hotel on-site at the resort is operated by Britannia Hotels. All facilities are available at the discretion of Britannia Hotels and charges will apply for their use.


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## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

Totally unrelated.

Email is legitimate. Sent from hgv@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com, sending server matches SPF records, and also passes DKIM signatures. (read: it's authentic)



> Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bounce@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com designates 130.248.238.144 as permitted sender) client-ip=130.248.238.144;
> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com;
> dkim=pass header.i=@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com header.s=neolane header.b=bcnFNbXI;
> spf=pass (google.com: domain of bounce@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com designates 130.248.238.144 as permitted sender)


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

sounds like when this has happened in the past, existing owners were allowed to stay in HGV.


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

holdaer said:


> I wonder if Britannia Hotels let the HGV management agreement expire and now they are taking over the management of the property as a cost savings move.
> 
> 
> *Amenities Notification: *As of December 19, 2018, the hotel on-site at the resort is operated by Britannia Hotels. All facilities are available at the discretion of Britannia Hotels and charges will apply for their use.


But wouldn’t that information be in the HOA minutes? And can they just end the agreement wouldn’t that be up to the owners?


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## Judi Kozlowski (Nov 1, 2022)

Evidently the email is true.  HVG told me it wasn't


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Judi Kozlowski said:


> Evidently the email is true.  HVG told me it wasn't


they haven't gotten the memo yet....but were probably thinking about the Diamond Scam.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 1, 2022)

So is this just Lodges only?


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> or Florida Gulf or Grand Pacific or Strand or Grand Islander or Bay Club...



It won't be the Bay Club there was an agreement in there when they sold them the land that Kohola is now on.  So I doubt Bay Club will ever be in jeopardy.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

@Nowaker , does your Certificate of Holiday have this also from HGV? The Craig Lodges have HGV in the paperwork with their header on the certificate. Does Colyumbridge?


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## escanoe (Nov 1, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> What about the other Scotland resorts, for now they remain with Hilton but who’s to say that Hilton won’t terminate those agreements too?



More Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) to help sell HGV Max!


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

escanoe said:


> More Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) to help sell HGV Max!



Actually such FUD makes me wary of spending any more $$ for MAX.


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

Just talked to the resort and they just got the information this afternoon and they know as must a we do, basically nothing


----------



## geist1223 (Nov 1, 2022)

If I remember correctly Apollo retained a large ownership interest in the combined HGVC/DRI and several seats on the BOD.



CalGalTraveler said:


> I am going to blame Apollo/DRI. This seems like very un-HGVC like behavior; disappointing for those owners.
> 
> If they can do this here. They can take away Elite and points privileges anywhere. Gives me second thoughts on buying developer MAX or other $$. A wake-up call that beyond your deeded week, they can take away MAX benefits anytime.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

I just received this FAQ "marked internal use only" when I asked if I would be grandfathered into HGV.  Simple answer - NO.


----------



## escanoe (Nov 1, 2022)

Too bad they don't have FAQs that specific on MAX.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

Well that didn't last long.  Currently in the process of canceling this sale.  What a disappointment!  At least I hadn't paid my credit card bill yet.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> Well that didn't last long.  Currently in the process of canceling this sale.  What a disappointment!  At least I hadn't paid my credit card bill yet.


That is painful....Did you contact Sue?


----------



## holdaer (Nov 1, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> But wouldn’t that information be in the HOA minutes? And can they just end the agreement wouldn’t that be up to the owners?




Good point.  Maybe it's the other way around.  Moving away from HGV and to Britannia.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That is painful....Did you contact Sue?


I sent both Sue and Donna who handled the sale an email.  What a bummer.


----------



## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> does your Certificate of Holiday have this also from HGV?


I can't confirm or deny because I haven't scanned it when it arrived. It's somewhere in my pile of papers, currently not searchable because of an ongoing home improvement project. In any case, it's just a pro-forma document anyway.

I did purchase it from "Hilton Grand Vacations UK Limited" though, just like you.


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## emoneybug (Nov 1, 2022)

Judi Kozlowski said:


> FRAUD ALERT  COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES
> https://www.higvc.co.uk/resorts/scotland-coylumbridge.php..


Judy,
I own Bay Club 11,200 points (a merged odd/even year contract) + Coylumbridge (Week 22, Lodge #10) 11,200 points, used up the points on both contracts essentially thru end of 2024 ...safe to say both contracts are near worthless at this point, not sure why I would pay 2023 maint fees!
Thoughts?


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

Based on the FAQ that was just posted, it sounds like there were issues with the HOA. Given how low MFs are at Coylumbridge, perhaps HGVC could not convince the owners to invest and build reserves to bring the units up HGVC standards. (I heard on TUG a few years ago that sufficient reserves were an issue. I have also heard of this happening at independent resorts (and condos) that eventually go into a downward spiral.)

Q: Why is Hilton Grand Vacations not going to manage Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club? A: The management objectives and practices of the *Coylumbridge Owners Club Committee do not align with those of Hilton Grand Vacations*. After much deliberation, HGV made the difficult decision to end its management agreement with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club.


----------



## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

This is the money quote from the FAQ on what happened. It sounds like they weren't keeping the resort up to standards.



> Q: Why is Hilton Grand Vacations not going to manage Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club? A: The management objectives and practices of the Coylumbridge Owners Club Committee do not align with those of Hilton Grand Vacations. After much deliberation, HGV made the difficult decision to end its management agreement with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club.


----------



## bnoble (Nov 1, 2022)

escanoe said:


> Too bad they don't have FAQs that specific on MAX.


Oh, they might, but so far no Hilton employee has been careless enough to distribute a document clearly marked "Not Approved for External Distribution" externally.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

Somebody did an oopsie LOL!!!!!!


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

IMHO....Why don't they share this with owners publicly rather than creating a lot of FUD? Not good for business to hide such information. Hurts trust.


----------



## bizaro86 (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO....Why don't they share this with owners publicly rather than creating a lot of FUD? Not good for business to hide such information. Hurts trust.



I think FUD is probably part of the reason they did this. 

Now any time sales gets, "I'll just buy Scotland resale" as an objection, they can point to this as a huge risk.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> I can't confirm or deny because I haven't scanned it when it arrived. It's somewhere in my pile of papers, currently not searchable because of an ongoing home improvement project. In any case, it's just a pro-forma document anyway.
> 
> I did purchase it from "Hilton Grand Vacations UK Limited" though, just like you.


yep. others have confirmed it looks the same....just different specific info.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

emoneybug said:


> Judy,
> I own Bay Club 11,200 points (a merged odd/even year contract) + Coylumbridge (Week 22, Lodge #10) 11,200 points, used up the points on both contracts essentially thru end of 2024 ...safe to say both contracts are near worthless at this point, not sure why I would pay 2023 maint fees!
> Thoughts?


Bay Club has been in HGV a long time but I guess it could happen to any affiliate anytime.  More ammo for the sales folks.  I would make sure to book all your 2024 Coly points at the 9 month mark in 2023 to tie them up.  According to the FAQs, existing bookings will be honored.


----------



## timsi (Nov 1, 2022)

In the last few months, I seriously considered buying Scotland for the same reasons as everyone else. Something held me back though, too many people were bragging about it and the prices were not that much cheaper than LV. I feel bad for everyone who bought recently, they have not even had the opportunity to enjoy it for long.


----------



## Lodemia (Nov 1, 2022)

Yup. I’ve owned for 6 months. Matches my stock market performance this year.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> Yup. I’ve owned for 6 months. Matches my stock market performance this year.


I would laugh if it wasn't so painful. Call Donna and see if they can work with you.


----------



## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> I just received this FAQ "marked internal use only" when I asked if I would be grandfathered into HGV.  Simple answer - NO.



This is a fun one:

*> Q. I purchased at Coylumbridge through the resale market from an HGV resale representative. I
was not told that Coylumbridge could become disaffiliated with the Hilton Grand Vacations Club
or that HGV could terminate its management agreement. What happens now?*

> A. Your timeshare ownership interest, including access to your unit and week, will remain the same. Your
timeshare contract will also stay the same, with Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club. In terms of your
affiliation with HGV Club, if you do not have any active reservations and/or outstanding Points for use
within the Club program, you will not be required to renew your membership for 2023 and your
membership will end — no further action is needed on your part. If you have active Points and renew your
membership, you will have access to Open Season reservations and other Club benefits in 2023.

In other words:

Q: I paid a lot of money to acquire this timeshare because it had a HGVC label and was sold by HGVC itself. Now it's worth shit to me because it won't come with HGVC points. What happens now?

A: Oh, as for the $199/year for the HGV Club, you will no longer have to pay it. So we're fine, right? XD


In any case, this is isn't a big surprise. It's painful, yeah, but not a big surprise. It can happen, and will at times happen. That's why it's smart to diversify. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> Don't put all your eggs in one basket.



I won't be putting any eggs in the HGV basket at this point.  They lost me as a customer.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> This is a fun one:
> 
> *> Q. I purchased at Coylumbridge through the resale market from an HGV resale representative. I
> was not told that Coylumbridge could become disaffiliated with the Hilton Grand Vacations Club
> ...



This is painful for a lot of folks, especially those that just bought.


----------



## escanoe (Nov 1, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Oh, they might, but so far no Hilton employee has been careless enough to distribute a document clearly marked "Not Approved for External Distribution" externally.


No, they don't have one. If they did have it, we would be seeing more consistent clear answers across HGV related to such questions.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> I think FUD is probably part of the reason they did this.
> 
> Now any time sales gets, "I'll just buy Scotland resale" as an objection, they can point to this as a huge risk.



True. it will have a chilling effect. I feel for the Coylumbridge owners. 

I also think this was a shot across the bow to the other affiliate HOAs who want to question HGVC's management recommendations (Florida Gulf, Scotland, Grand Pacific, Strand, Trump etc.)


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> True. it will have a chilling effect. I feel for the Coylumbridge owners.
> 
> I also think this was a shot across the bow to the other affiliate HOAs who want to question HGVC's management recommendations (Florida Gulf, Scotland, Grand Pacific, Strand, Trump etc.)


and drive retail sales....for Max.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

IMHO...I don't think it it will help MAX because it puts FUD about rules they publish and change on a whim. It will have a chilling affect on sales, just like @Huskerpaul


----------



## Frankly-Frankie (Nov 1, 2022)

timsi said:


> In the last few months, I seriously considered buying Scotland for the same reasons as everyone else. Something held me back though, too many people were bragging about it and the prices were not that much cheaper than LV. I feel bad for everyone who bought recently, they have not even had the opportunity to enjoy it for long.


I've been thinking about putting my toes in the water with HGVC and Scotland is very appealing, both for the location and the MF. My interest is in Craig. I wonder what the chances are of this happening to that location?


----------



## travelhacker (Nov 1, 2022)

I've always admired HGVC and how they treat resale owners. I have thought about picking up a week on many occasions. 

They had always allowed owners at affiliate resorts to continue on with HGVC, so this is pretty shocking that they won't be allowing this resort to do so.

I don't know that I'll pick up an affiliate resort.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 1, 2022)

Frankly-Frankie said:


> My interest is in Craig. I wonder what the chances are of this happening to that location?


It also has low MF as well. This thread is a concrete evidence that there is a non-zero probability it can happen. Would you be ok losing your initial purchase price? 

I think the defaults might increase in Scotland due to the state of the economy in the EU/UK. The risk is higher now than when I bought it in 2019.


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Bay Club has been in HGV a long time but I guess it could happen to any affiliate anytime.  More ammo for the sales folks.  I would make sure to book all your 2024 Coly points at the 9 month mark in 2023 to tie them up.  According to the FAQs, existing bookings will be honored.



Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about Bay Club. The land that Kohala is on is actually Bay Club's land. Much like The Craigendarroch Suites are on The Lodges land, there would be some serious issues in that separation. Could it happen? Sure, but the chances aren't as high as places like Colymbridge and Dunkeld. I would worry about the SW Florida Affiliates, but those are spots on a map sales can point to for great locations. I'm not sure the demand for Scotland is as big as the Gulf Coast of Florida. This is why I last summer when I was looking for a new deed I would only look at Craigendarroch (wound up purchasing at The Boulevard). 

As far as 2024 points, I'm thinking that they won't be honored at all. No weeks are to be converted anymore and I'm not sure they will allow you to borrow from already converted 2024 Coylumbridge points as there is nothing there to borrow from.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 1, 2022)

emoneybug said:


> Judy,
> I own Bay Club 11,200 points (a merged odd/even year contract) + Coylumbridge (Week 22, Lodge #10) 11,200 points, used up the points on both contracts essentially thru end of 2024 ...safe to say both contracts are near worthless at this point, not sure why I would pay 2023 maint fees!
> Thoughts?


Bay Club should still have value. The deal with HGVC involved all the land that King's Land uses and the purchase contract required HGVC to maintain Bay Club. Big lawsuit if they drop Bay Club.


----------



## escanoe (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> This is why I last summer when I was looking for a new deed I would only look at Craigendarroch (wound up purchasing at The Boulevard).



My recall of your earlier post related to this is Ms. DaYooper was astute and had some reservations about increased risk in Scotland.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

Coylumbridge land is apparently owned by HGVC.  It sounds like they are going to sell it.

When we were researching our trip to Scotland I recall that there were some reviews that the hotel on-site had deteriorated. The review said that the hotel was formerly a Hilton Hotel but was de-branded. Did not say why or who initiated. Perhaps this had something to do with the decision?


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

escanoe said:


> My recall of your earlier post related to this is Ms. DaYooper was astute and had some reservations about increased risk in Scotland.



She was absolutely correct in that regard. She even had an issue with Craigendarroch. I never pushed too hard on that deed because we found the Boulevard deed at such a great price. She's a smart (and beautiful) woman. Why she married me I'll never know.


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Coylumbridge land is apparently owned by HGVC.  It sounds like they are going to sell it.
> 
> When we were researching our trip to Scotland I recall that there were some reviews that the hotel on-site had deteriorated. The review said that the hotel was formerly a Hilton Hotel but was de-branded. Did not say why or who initiated. Perhaps this had something to do with the decision?



Sound like there was an ongoing disagreement about what the level of accommodations should be. Maybe they couldn't come to a agreement on what the MF's should be, what they should update and how much the needed to charge for reserves. Think about it, if I exchange my Coylumbridge week into the system and no one ever picks up that week, that's money being lost. Comparing the percent recommended of the Scotland properties, Coylumbridge is at 85% while the other 3 are all above 95%. While that might not seem like a lot, there aren't many HGVC properties under 90%. Without taking into consideration the Hotel Harvest properties in Japan, Coylumbridge has the 3rd lowest recommendation percentage in the system after Ocean Tower (79%) and Anderson Ocean Club (84%).

It completely sucks for those that bought there to use as points. I'm sure the sales department knew that it might be a possibility and HGVC most definitely should have been more forthright with owners on what there options were.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> She was absolutely correct in that regard


What were her concerns?


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## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> This is the money quote from the FAQ on what happened. It sounds like they weren't keeping the resort up to standards.



"_The management objectives and practices of the Coylumbridge Owners Club Committee do not align with those of Hilton Grand Vacations_" doesn't necessarily mean "Coylumbridge didn't keep the resort up to Hilton/HGVC standards". It could as well mean:

_Coylumbridge offered a fair price of $6K to get 11,200 points and a very good MF-per-point, which is in contrary to our predatory sales practices where 11,200 points and low MFpp costs $50K to acquire._


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

This is taken from the Coylumbridge website
So refurbishment is planned and under way

*Refurbishment*
*REFURBISHMENT – UP TO 2020*

New bathrooms in three Phase 7 Lodges
New patio doors and windows in one Phase 1 Lodge
New patio doors in selected Phase 2 & 3 Lodges
New internal doors in selected Phase 2 & 3 Lodges
New Velux windows in selected Phase 2 & 3 Lodges
External decoration of all Phase 5 & 6 Lodges
*WHAT’S NEXT FOR OUR LODGES?*
There’s a full programme of refurbishment planned for the lodges, which should roll out over the next few years. The programme had to be paused during 2020, to pause the Refurbishment Fund payments and to ensure the Club’s reserve funds were protected. In 2021, this will begin again.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 1, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> _Coylumbridge offered a fair price of $6K to get 11,200 points and a very good MF-per-point, which is in contrary to our predatory sales practices where 11,200 points and low MFpp costs $50K to acquire._


so astute!


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## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

I was sent a corrected FAQ on Coylumbridge from the same HGV employee who erroneously sent me the other version that is no longer posted.

Is it ok for me to post this FAQ that has been approved for external distribution?  I was told it is the same document with the "vendors" section removed.

Thanks


----------



## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> the other version that is no longer posted.



It's still posted. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/coylumbridge-scotland-purchase.345613/post-2862471


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## timsi (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Why she married me I'll never know.


I am pretty sure there is more to the story.


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

ski_sierra said:


> What were her concerns?



Too many questions with the international affiliation and lack of deeds. She’s my balance.


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## audirt (Nov 1, 2022)

My question is kind of off-topic, but here goes.

I've seen some other comments reference other resorts that _might_ one day suffer a same fate for similar reasons, e.g. Florida Gulf, Grand Pacific, etc.

How is everyone identifying these results?  I own at Elara and while I feel very secure in that ownership, I'd like to know why Elara is (legally) safer than, say, Grand Pacific?


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## Cyberc (Nov 1, 2022)

Theories are probably many but could it be that the new buyers(2018) Britannia hotels didn’t want to renew the management contract with HGVC.

Now they are hoping that current owners eventually will default because many of them bought in to use in the HGVC system. They can either pickup the pieces for cheap and then sell the entire resort or managed it as a regular hotel


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> I was sent a corrected FAQ on Coylumbridge from the same HGV employee who erroneously sent me the other version that is no longer posted.
> 
> Is it ok for me to post this FAQ that has been approved for external distribution?  I was told it is the same document with the "vendors" section removed.
> 
> Thanks


yes, post it.  I would like to see the differences.


----------



## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> yes, post it.  I would like to see the differences.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Thanks


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## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

timsi said:


> I am pretty sure there is more to the story.



It ain’t my looks, charm or career. I guess she could have wanted a fixer upper. I’m not complaining, though.


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## BingoBangoBongo (Nov 1, 2022)

We have family on the west coast of Scotland and have traveled there three times, all before our involvement with HGVC.  I have briefly looked at the Scotland properties, but they aren’t really in an area that we would spend a lot of time. It’s a bit strange in the timing, but just last night I was looking at Dunkeld which I don’t ever remember looking at before.  My wife happened to walk by where I was sitting and asked me what I was looking at.  Then this news drops today.  I do hope they give some relief to very recent purchasers.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

At a minimum, HGVC should grandfather such owners as Elites if they were Elite prior. It is not the owner's fault the HOA and HGVC could not see eye-to-eye. It costs them very little to do this.

They also should consider no-cost/low cost paths to transition owners over to HGVC deeds at other resorts or to deed back so they are not kicked out of the system. What companies kick paying customers to the curb these days?

*This is an unforced error on HGVC's part. *They just made some unnecessary enemies. MVC and Wyndham sales are likely taking notes and will likely use this to lure customers away from HGVC or this should put FUD into any buyers mind to prevent new buyers from opting for MAX.

(This is upsetting and I am not even a Coylumbridge owner.)


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## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

I was looking for the "We won't screw existing owners over" section of the FAQ, and all I could find was the "Boy did we screw existing owners over" sections.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

Absolutely. What about the people that have owned for years? They have just kicked a lot of customers, some resales, many not or just purchased there because they like Scotland to the curb. Those people will never come back to HGVC and will tell others about their poor experience. These people paid MFs year in and year out. They did not walk.

As a mentor once said to me - if you are leaving an organization take care to never burn bridges because that's what people will remember the most about you. Even if you had a stellar, long-time career. This is no different.

This is so uncharacteristic of HGVC behavior. Sales seems to be running this sh*t show. This is disappointing.


----------



## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is so uncharacteristic of HGVC behavior. *Sales seems to be running this sh*t show.* This is disappointing.



What has changed in the past year? I really hope I’m wrong and Apollo isn’t having a larger influence than they should. Recent data tells me I’m not wrong.


----------



## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

dayooper said:


> What has changed in the past year? I really hope I’m wrong and Apollo isn’t having a larger influence than they should. Recent data tells me I’m not wrong.


I think this is a big part of it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

All of this behavior toward paying HGVC Coylumbridge owners who did nothing wrong except pay MF - makes you want to go out and pony up cash for MAX.


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## Huskerpaul (Nov 1, 2022)

I did my research before I purchased.  As far as I could find, when HGV had left other properties, they did so prospectively so that it only affected new buyers and they grandfathered existing owners in.  So I thought I was safe.  Famous last words. 

What is to keep HGV from doing this to any other resort they own?  Say next year they decide they aren't going to manage Paradise in LV anymore and it turns into an affiliate.  Then a couple years later HGV pulls out altogether and leaves owners holding the bag. They can change anything else whenever they please except the seven days at the resort you purchased.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> I did my research before I purchased.  As far as I could find, when HGV had left other properties, they did so prospectively so that it only affected new buyers and they grandfathered existing owners in.  So I thought I was safe.  Famous last words.
> 
> What is to keep HGV from doing this to any other resort they own?  Say next year they decide they aren't going to manage Paradise in LV anymore and it turns into an affiliate.  Then a couple years later HGV pulls out altogether and leaves owners holding the bag. They can change anything else whenever they please except the seven days at the resort you purchased.


That is the bottom line. You get your week in your resort.... Everything else it changeable


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> .... Everything else it changeable



At least we now have another fast way to get out of the presentation early...just ask about Coylumbridge. How do we know you won't leave us high and dry with a MAX purchase?


----------



## Nowaker (Nov 1, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> Say next year they decide they aren't going to manage Paradise in LV anymore and it turns into an affiliate



Most HGVC properties incorporate HGVClub into its deed, making HGVClub mandatory, and only exigent circumstances could force a property out of HGVClub, like HOA not willing to maintain HGVC standards, which are also defined in the deed. So this scenario is highly unlikely - almost impossible. Affiliates however are just that - affiliates, and affiliation can be easily shut down. As we just saw.


----------



## SteelerGal (Nov 1, 2022)

I was looking into buying into Scotland, Vegas  for the points and lower cost.  We own Bay Club but airfare for a family of 7 these days is extreme.


----------



## GT75 (Nov 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That is the bottom line. You get your week in your resort.... Everything else it changeable


This is what @Panina always use to tell buyers, "Buy where you want to stay/use."   I miss her input/advice.


----------



## dayooper (Nov 1, 2022)

GT75 said:


> This is what @Panina always use to tell buyers, "Buy where you want to stay/use."   I miss her input/advice.



I miss @Panina and her perspective as well.


----------



## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

Similar to the Florida affiliates, Coylumbridge Highland Lodges is not a HGVC developed resort.

Reo Stakis Organization owned the resort when the timeshare units were developed between 1981 and 2000. In 2000, the Scotland properties were sold to Hilton. The hotel was owned by Hilton Hotels and the timeshare operation by Hilton International Grand Vacations Company.

_NOTE: The hotel property has changed ownership twice since Hilton sold it (from Parks & Hotels to Starwood Capital Group (link), from Starwood Capital Group to Britannia Hotels (link))._

The Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club (CHLC), through a Committee appointed by the members, employs the HGVC as a management company to carry out operational activities including housekeeping, maintenance and repair, and general administration of the units. HGVC  is also a member of CHLC by virtue of its ownership of unsold timeshare weeks.



CalGalTraveler said:


> OTOH...it may have to do with the quality of the resort. I heard a few years ago that there was concern about the reserves and needs for upgrades.



Yes back in 2018/2019, TUG member @Anthony Schmid shared a copy of the

December 2018 letter to Coylumbridge owners, which talks about the aging property that requires substantial and costly project work over 20 years
https://tugbbs.com/forums/attachments/coylumbridge-pdf.9441/

May 2019 annual meeting presentation, where HGVC presented their Reserve study which showed the reserve fund was severely underfunded and action needed to be taken.
https://tugbbs.com/forums/attachments/chlc-agm-2019-pdf.12779/









						HGV at Coylumbridge Lodges
					

Hello Everyone!  Long time member here but I have never owned a TS until maybe now.  I'm about to pull the trigger on two "Holiday Certificates" during platinum weeks at Coylumbridge Lodges. I hear a lot about the Craigendarroch here but not very much about Coylumbridge.  Each one is at £3,995...




					tugbbs.com
				





Huskerpaul said:


> I did my research before I purchased.  As far as I could find, when HGV had left other properties, they did so prospectively so that it only affected new buyers and they grandfathered existing owners in.  So I thought I was safe.  Famous last words.


In the other situations, the affiliated resorts decided to end the relationship with HGVC (not HGVC).

Assuming one of the reasons HGVC is leaving is due to resort quality standards, it basically doesn’t make sense to continue to allow inventory into the Club from this aging property.


----------



## Cyberc (Nov 2, 2022)

According to the thread: HGVC Detailed Resort & Affiliated Information








						HGVC Detailed Resort & Affiliated Information
					

Ocean Oak Additional Information:  Both Plus and Premier Units have water/ice dispenser from the refrigerator.




					tugbbs.com
				




All of the Scotland resorts are developed by HGVC. My assumption was that HGVC could not end any developed resorts only affiliated could they drop from the HGVC system.

Is "our" data wrong or can they indeed drop a HGVC developed resort?

regards


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> According to the thread: HGVC Detailed Resort & Affiliated Information
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting …that information came directly from HGVC’s documentation. 
Perhaps they‘re showing developed for the unsold weeks they acquired back in 2000.

Per the link below, “_A developed property is a property that was funded and constructed by Hilton Grand Vacations or acquired through a just-in-time arrangement. Hilton Grand Vacations also manages the operation of the developed properties_.”


2019 Source: HGVC Form 10-K filed on February 28, 2019 (pages 41 - 42)


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## Cyberc (Nov 2, 2022)

alwysonvac said:


> Interesting …that information came directly from HGVC’s documentation.
> Perhaps they‘re showing developed for the unsold weeks they acquired back in 2000.
> 
> Per the link below, “_A developed property is a property that was funded and constructed by Hilton Grand Vacations or acquired through a just-in-time arrangement. Hilton Grand Vacations also manages the operation of the developed properties_.”
> ...


So does this mean that HGV can terminate any agreement with any resort, developed, affiliate or something else?


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

In the past, Coylumbridge was always noted as an affiliate (see 2006 thread below).
Of course, like most affiliates, HGVC membership is optional for an affiliate (not mandatory).









						Buying direct from Hilton International
					

There are some people who really want HGVC elite status and to get elite you must buy direct from HGVC. Most all of us know that buying direct from HGVC is not a good value but, there has been some talk about buying direct from HIGVC (Hilton International). These sales will count toward your...




					tugbbs.com


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> So does this mean that HGV can terminate any agreement with any resort, developed, affiliate or something else?


That‘s a question for HGVC  or look at your HOA documents.

I know there is language in MarBrisa and Bay Club’s documentation that the agreement can be terminated  (see resort sticky thread). Perhaps the same language exists for all Club resorts


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## dioxide45 (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> So does this mean that HGV can terminate any agreement with any resort, developed, affiliate or something else?


One would need to look at the underlying documents (CC&Rs) for their resort. While the club may be mandated for owners at most HGV developed resorts, there are most often provisions in there that covers what happens if HGV stops being the managing entity. Sometimes there are separate arrangements, club affiliation and a management agreement. One could possibly be part of the club without being managed by HGV or it could be the other way around. All of the resorts have their own HOA and owner BOD. The resorts are not owned by HGV, they may own units that they are selling, but the resort itself is part of the HOA.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

@dioxide45 Good points.  Has MVC ever abandoned a resort by their initiative? If so, how were owners treated and transitioned?


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> All of the resorts have their own HOA and owner BOD. The resorts are not owned by HGV, they may own units that they are selling, but the resort itself is part of the HOA.



Exactly.  "Developed" or not, once sold HGVC is not the "owner" of anything other than whatever weeks it retains (and even at Coylumbridge they owned a significant number of weeks that they have indicated they will now sell).  While most HOA bye-laws include special rights for the developer:

1) I have never seen one that obliged HGVC to remain the manager indefinitely, no matter what, with no power to withdraw as they did here; 

2) even in "affiliated" resorts, HGVC in most cases has stepped in and assumed the original "developer" rights - this was even pointed out in the FAQ posted earlier whereby HGVC made clear they will be relinquishing their "Founder Member" positions on the HOA of Coylumbridge.

Bottom line, I have never fully understood the repeated assertion that an HGVC "developed" resort offers additional (legal) protections.  Yes, brand and reputation wise they are much more linked to these resorts as a result of developing and being the initial sellers of the resorts.  However, as what has just happened with Coylumbridge has pointed out, their long-standing association with that resort and maintenance of an HGVC sales force to resell weeks puts their reputation at a similar risk.  Whether they realized this or not, who knows.  Regardless, they've decided in this case taking the "hit" was worth it to walk away.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

BTW the Coylumbridge Holiday purchase certificate product description in the appendix says, _"HGVUK is the *owner *_(emphasis mine)_ of Hilton Grand Vacations Club at Coylumbridge Lodges *(Resort).* The *Resort *is situated in Strathsprey, Inverness-shire, Scotland....". _The word "owner" does not state "operates an exchange" or "manages the property on behalf of."

It says "owner" very confusing and possibly misleading.

it then goes on to say,

_"The* Resort* consists of 61, fully furnished, two and three bedroom lodges."

"The lodges and grounds within the Resort are held in trust for the benefit of the Club members by Campbell Riddell Trustees Ltd (a company incorporated in Scotland) (CRTY)" _

To further complicate: Since these are Right to Use (holiday certificates), it is unclear what HOA/Committee working on behalf of "owners" really means. Do they represent the deed holder (trust), HGVUK ("owner" as stated above)  or the holiday certificate holders?

Full disclosure: I am not a Coylumbridge owner and this was shared with me by an owner. I am also not a lawyer.


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## Cyberc (Nov 2, 2022)

Just received this from Coylumbridge

I’ve asked if the committee didn’t want to ensure that the resort lived up to the HGVC standard.

Seems that owners pay $575K per year in fees to HGVC.

Maybe HGV just wanted out because of Max 

Dear Mr 

The Commitee was as shocked as you yourself must have been to receive the notification from HGV yesterday. We had no prior warning about it, no correspondence from them as to any issues or that they wanted to discuss anything. Just an email yesterday morning. We have a meeting with HGV tomorrow afternoon and the Chairman will issue a statement thereafter.

I can assure you that it is the exact opposite to your comments below. HGV have ended the agreements for their own reasons. As you will be aware from the 2021 and 2022 AGMs the Committee has been working to create a new management contract with HGV that ensured high standards of service that HGV would be held accountable for and value for money to owners for £500K fee we paid them each year. HGV's performance has fallen well below the standard owners had the right to expect over recent years.

The Club can now take the opportunity to determine its own future, agree high standards of service from the future providers and ensure value for money for owners.

Best regards


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## timsi (Nov 2, 2022)

I think the issue is not if HGVC can walk away from managing the resort but rather if the owners who bought from the HGVC sales office should be compensated since the new situation is materially different than when they bought.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

timsi said:


> I think the issue is not if HGVC can walk away from managing the resort but rather if the owners who bought from the HGVC sales office should be compensated since the new situation is materially different than when they bought.


That may be the issue YOU are interested in, but it wasn't the issue I was responding to.  I was explicitly responding to assertions that somehow HGVC doesn't have the ability to walk away from certain resorts as a result of their developer status.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

IMHO...I believe HVC is just getting started trimming resorts to boost their profits (MVC will soon follow).

I believe there are a number of resorts in DRI that will cost too much to renovate because of DRI's deferred maintenance policy and neglect. Those will be top spin offs candidates. Not sure if those will be sales or discontinuance of management contracts.

Not necessarily in Scotland. I believe they would have a harder time separating themselves from Craig given they fully own the suites on the property and the property is in good shape.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 2, 2022)

I console myself with the knowledge that there is a serious market for Hawaii timeshares, HGVC or no HGVC. I did buy where I wanted to go.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

Does anyone own Craigendarroch *Suites* (not lodges) and would be willing to share the property description from their Holiday Certificate (Schedule 1)?  If so, please PM me.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> Just received this from Coylumbridge
> 
> I’ve asked if the committee didn’t want to ensure that the resort lived up to the HGVC standard.
> 
> Seems that owners pay $575K per year in fees to HGVC.


This position from the Coylumbridge Board is suspect - GBP 500k is not the "management fee" it's the totality of the "management" related budget (at least based on the 2019 AGM document posted earlier where this appears to relate to the "Under Management Agreement" line item).  That has to include all kinds of costs to run the resort PLUS whatever "management fee" HGVC charges.  The total budget for 2018 was only 1.3m, of which 596k was "Under Management Agreement" another 542k were supplier costs (electricity, water, cleaning, refuse collection...etc) and 242k for refurbishments.  That means "Under Management Agreement" has to include all the staffing/salary costs of employees at the resort (front desk, maintenance...etc) PLUS the "management fee".  

Maybe I look at it differently, but in the past conversations and debate about what these management companies like MVC/Vistana/HGVC take, I have always been focused on the "effectively" license fee of 10-15% of total budget that most seem to charge.  I don't think the 500k referred to represents that fee.

Now, perhaps a fair point that Coylumbridge has been paying 500k+ for "management" associated costs, but it's not like HGVC is sucking all that up....it's paying resort staff salaries with a good chunk of that.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does anyone own Craigendarroch *Suites* (not lodges) and would be willing to share the property description from their Holiday Certificate (Schedule 1)?  If so, please PM me.


I wonder if it might be a deed since it is sold by HGV in the US.  I know when I talked to HGV, they can pull up and sell them in Orlando but can't sell the others in Scotland.  The others aren't even in their system to sell.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does anyone own Craigendarroch *Suites* (not lodges) and would be willing to share the property description from their Holiday Certificate (Schedule 1)?  If so, please PM me.


I would be curious to see this as well, but I wouldn't get overly optimistic regardless of what it says:

1) the "holiday certificates" are meant to be a true "replacement" of the "original" certificates. As such, HGVC could very well have been the "owner" conferring the initial certificates (or it stepped into that role when it assumed the original develper's rights).

2) even if it is described as the "owner" what would stop it from exiting such ownership?  Neither the certificate nor the club bye-laws seem to restrict HGVC from walking away.


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## timsi (Nov 2, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> That may be the issue YOU are interested in, but it wasn't the issue I was responding to.  I was explicitly responding to assertions that somehow HGVC doesn't have the ability to walk away from certain resorts as a result of their developer status.


Those who buy from HGVC have a reasonable expectation that the services would remain the same or better for the foreseeable future. We all know that according to the contracts things can change but such sudden change puts in question the value of what was sold recently. Don't you think those who purchased through the local HGVC office paid a premium compared to what they would have paid to acquire directly from other owners, especially in absence of an affiliation with Hilton?


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

timsi said:


> Those who buy from HGVC have a reasonable expectation that the services would remain the same or better for the foreseeable future. We all know that according to the contracts things can change but such sudden change puts in question the value of what was sold recently. Don't you think those who purchased through the local HGVC office paid a premium compared to what they would have paid to acquire directly from other owners, especially in absence of an affiliation with Hilton?


Please don't turn this into another thread where you beat your head against the wall.  I neither agreed nor disagreed with your assertion.  I simply made clear my post was addressed at a completely different point being made in this thread than the one you raised.  Get off your soapbox!

As to your assertion - morally, I agree.  Legally, I doubt there is much to stand on as what you are actually purchasing is laid out in black and white in the contract (and I am certain it doesn't guarantee you any period of continued management or affiliation with HGVC).  

Finally, your assertion that this is a "sudden" change is shortsighted.  At any point in time the change could be viewed as "sudden" - HGVC have permitted continued club participation for the next 14 months.  Is that morally ok - no, but is it really "sudden" or contrary to the contracts, unlikely.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

From FB and a Coy non-HGV owner:
I’m one of those owners that either uses my weeks or rents them out, and it’s over 90% of us have no interest in HGV. I feel sorry for the 10%, but HGV were charging us far too much to do too little, as far as I’m concerned it’s great news for my property. There’s definitely more to it, and two sides to every story etc


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## timsi (Nov 2, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> Please don't turn this into another thread where you beat your head against the wall.  I neither agreed nor disagreed with your assertion.  I simply made clear my post was addressed at a completely different point being made in this thread than the one you raised.  Get off your soapbox!
> 
> As to your assertion - morally, I agree.  Legally, I doubt there is much to stand on as what you are actually purchasing is laid out in black and white in the contract (and I am certain it doesn't guarantee you any period of continued management or affiliation with HGVC).
> 
> Finally, your assertion that this is a "sudden" change is shortsighted.  At any point in time the change could be viewed as "sudden" - HGVC have permitted continued club participation for the next 14 months.  Is that morally ok - no, but is it really "sudden" or contrary to the contracts, unlikely.


I do not know why you thought my initial comment was directed to you.

It is very sudden because in timeshares the occupation is once a year and you pay a good chunk of money in advance for something that you expect to get for years.  Many have already booked 2023. Many owners would soon start to look at 2024 but that is no longer possible under such sudden notice at Coylumbridge. This is not a water contract that you use every day.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> From FB and a Coy non-HGV owner:
> I’m one of those owners that either uses my weeks or rents them out, and it’s over 90% of us have no interest in HGV. I feel sorry for the 10%, but HGV were charging us far too much to do too little, as far as I’m concerned it’s great news for my property. There’s definitely more to it, and two sides to every story etc


I seriously doubt over 90% of the owners there have no interest in HGVC or "the Club" - this is not Key West!    I own at Craigendarroch and indeed it appears a majority of members own and use at the resort, but I don't think it's nearly as high as 90%.

That said, I don't doubt there may be savings to be had, but I think it's an uphill battle UNLESS they can come to some agreement with the /?(attached) hotel that left HGVC.  I would not want to be a small independent trying to find staff and suppliers in the current market.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

More from that person:
I absolutely understand anger over this from those in the HGV club. Exact numbers were published in committee minutes if you are an owner. But yes, HGV are bleeding us dry (It’s more than the amount mentioned previously) and quite frankly provide awful service in return. The lodges standards are dropping but it’s mainly because of HGV, not lack of cash. I’m of the opinion that we’ll be able to get better service for half that contract which means more to spend on upgrades, and hopefully maintenance carried out to a higher standard in the first place.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

timsi said:


> It is very sudden because in timeshares the occupation is once a year and you pay a good chunk of money in advance for something that you expect to get for years. Many have already booked 2023. Many owners would soon start to look at 2024 but that is no longer possible under such sudden notice at Coylumbridge. This is not a water contract that you use every day.


i would hope that all HGV owners there have cancelled their fixed weeks for 2023 and 2024, received the points into their HGV account, and booked something in 2023. If they want to use the points at another HGV resort.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Good points.  Has MVC ever abandoned a resort by their initiative? If so, how were owners treated and transitioned?


Marriott has parted ways with several resorts over the years, none of them were purpose built by Marriott though. Marriott is a little different in a way in that they are pure weeks with a land trust as well. So they have weeks at every resort that are part of the Abound/DC Trust. So even if they were to drop a resort, Marriott owners could still potentially book those resorts if the trust retained ownership. Owners at the resorts however would lose the ability to elect Club Points and would no longer be able to participate in Abound. Marriott could continue to use the inventory owned by the Trust to fulfil Abound reservations, it would just be individual weeks owners left in the lurch.

Another good example is Hyatt Grand Aspen that left Hyatt Residence Club sometime in 2021. HRC owns a number of weeks there in the HPP trust. HPP trust owners can still make reservations at Aspen even though the resort is no longer managed by Hyatt Residence Club. Individual interval owners at Aspen can no longer reserve other Hyatt Residence Club resorts.


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## dayooper (Nov 2, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott has parted ways with several resorts over the years, none of them were purpose built by Marriott though. Marriott is a little different in a way in that they are pure weeks with a land trust as well. So they have weeks at every resort that are part of the Abound/DC Trust. So even if they were to drop a resort, Marriott owners could still potentially book those resorts if the trust retained ownership. Owners at the resorts however would lose the ability to elect Club Points and would no longer be able to participate in Abound. Marriott could continue to use the inventory owned by the Trust to fulfil Abound reservations, it would just be individual weeks owners left in the lurch.
> 
> Another good example is Hyatt Grand Aspen that left Hyatt Residence Club sometime in 2021. HRC owns a number of weeks there in the HPP trust. HPP trust owners can still make reservations at Aspen even though the resort is no longer managed by Hyatt Residence Club. Individual interval owners at Aspen can no longer reserve other Hyatt Residence Club resorts.



The big difference between Grand Aspen and Coylumbridge is who made the decision. The Grand Aspen owners decided they didn't want to be part of the Hyatt system. They have a great resort that is at or above the level of accommodations of the majority of the Hyatt system. Coylumbridge is on the opposite side of the spectrum. While the "board" of Coylumbridge did not want to raise MF's or give HGV more control, it was HGVC that ended the arrangement. I think that's a big deal. In the previous exit (Sunset Cove), the board/owners decided to move. The level of accommodations was still at an acceptable level. From what I gather, Coylumbridge is not.



ocdb8r said:


> Exactly.  "Developed" or not, once sold HGVC is not the "owner" of anything other than whatever weeks it retains (*and even at Coylumbridge they owned a significant number of weeks that they have indicated they will now sell*).  While most HOA bye-laws include special rights for the developer:



My question is this how many is a significant number. Is the number large enough to stuff the board with HGV people like most resorts have? How does this resort construct it's business? Are there even elections to determine who sits on the board? From the owners that @ocdb8r has been in contact with, it sounds like HGV and Coylumbridge had different opinions of how to run the property. If the resort wasn't up to Hilton standards, I can see why they let them go. Also, was HGVC even selling weeks to prospective owners? Wasn't the sales office just selling weeks that owners wanted to get rid of? 

With that being said, It's really lousy to leave the HGVC members out to dry. This most definitely a case where the HGVC members should be given an opportunity to keep the points somewhere. How that would work, I'm not sure, but they surely can fins a way to make it happen.


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## escanoe (Nov 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> More from that person:
> I absolutely understand anger over this from those in the HGV club. Exact numbers were published in committee minutes if you are an owner. But yes, HGV are bleeding us dry (It’s more than the amount mentioned previously) and quite frankly provide awful service in return. The lodges standards are dropping but it’s mainly because of HGV, not lack of cash. I’m of the opinion that we’ll be able to get better service for half that contract which means more to spend on upgrades, and hopefully maintenance carried out to a higher standard in the first place.



I can see their POV. Especially someone that owns certificates and uses what they own. The unpleasant surprise I suspect will be for those that want to exit, the loss of the affiliation likely reduces the value of a certificate to nothing. The 10% (or whatever percent it is) that were buying and using in HGVC were pushing ownership value up for everyone that owned.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

dayooper said:


> The big difference between Grand Aspen and Coylumbridge is who made the decision. The Grand Aspen owners decided they didn't want to be part of the Hyatt system. They have a great resort that is at or above the level of accommodations of the majority of the Hyatt system. Coylumbridge is on the opposite side of the spectrum. While the "board" of Coylumbridge did not want to raise MF's or give HGV more control, it was HGVC that ended the arrangement. I think that's a big deal. In the previous exit (Sunset Cove), the board/owners decided to move. The level of accommodations was still at an acceptable level. From what I gather, Coylumbridge is not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From a non-HGV owner at Coylumbridge on the HGV FB group:
I’m one of those owners that either uses my weeks or rents them out, and it’s over 90% of us have no interest in HGV. I feel sorry for the 10%, but HGV were charging us far too much to do too little, as far as I’m concerned it’s great news for my property. There’s definitely more to it, and two sides to every story etc 

I absolutely understand anger over this from those in the HGV club. Exact numbers were published in committee minutes if you are an owner. But yes, HGV are bleeding us dry (It’s more than the amount mentioned previously) and quite frankly provide awful service in return. The lodges standards are dropping but it’s mainly because of HGV, not lack of cash. I’m of the opinion that we’ll be able to get better service for half that contract which means more to spend on upgrades, and hopefully maintenance carried out to a higher standard in the first place. 

we’re in the RCI system just now so that would make sense, but I really don’t know. I guess the committee have an ‘interesting’ 3 months to get something in place. It’s the admin will be the biggest problem short term, we’ve got a great housekeeping company independent of HGV, so it’s mainly booking & correspondence will be the short term issue, then making sure a decent facilities management company can get involved. 

indeed, I don't know how well selling debt from the US works from Scotland, but I'm pretty sure the committee will work on the rest of the owners' behalf to try!
I've done some quick sums, and honestly, I believe that the saving we will make by using someone other than HGV will cover the shortfall (less than 10% of owners are in the HGV system), then over time with a repaired reputation things will improve.

Actually, having a reputation at all will help. One of the issues with resales (outside of HGV points gatherers) is that hardly anyone knows about the resort. One of my complaints to HGV for several years has been the lack of a TripAdvisor listing, it was finally created earlier this year. HGV were reluctant to do it for some reason, always said it needed approval from Florida, then staff needed trained. That's one of my many reasons for being happy they are gone.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Actually, having a reputation at all will help. One of the issues with resales (outside of HGV points gatherers) is that hardly anyone knows about the resort.



I think it's unlikely losing HGVC affiliation will help with this issue.


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## frank808 (Nov 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> From a non-HGV owner at Coylumbridge on the HGV FB group:
> I’m one of those owners that either uses my weeks or rents them out, and it’s over 90% of us have no interest in HGV. I feel sorry for the 10%, but HGV were charging us far too much to do too little, as far as I’m concerned it’s great news for my property. There’s definitely more to it, and two sides to every story etc
> 
> I absolutely understand anger over this from those in the HGV club. Exact numbers were published in committee minutes if you are an owner. But yes, HGV are bleeding us dry (It’s more than the amount mentioned previously) and quite frankly provide awful service in return. The lodges standards are dropping but it’s mainly because of HGV, not lack of cash. I’m of the opinion that we’ll be able to get better service for half that contract which means more to spend on upgrades, and hopefully maintenance carried out to a higher standard in the first place.
> ...


For the FB person, I doubt 90% of the ownership is happy to be unaffiliated with HGVC. 

Seems like both sides where glad to be done with each other.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## bizaro86 (Nov 2, 2022)

frank808 said:


> For the FB person, I doubt 90% of the ownership is happy to be unaffiliated with HGVC.
> 
> Seems like both sides where glad to be done with each other.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



The percentage might be higher now than it will be once aging owners realize this has meaningfully reduced the resale value of their weeks.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

frank808 said:


> For the FB person, I doubt 90% of the ownership is happy to be unaffiliated with HGVC


I can't speak to the numbers but it sounds like those numbers came from HOA meeting notes.  If they are not in HGV and pay them a lot of money for nothing, then they probably are happy about it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

90% sounds high but if this is the case, and they were truly unhappy with HVC, and could find services for less, then why didn't the committee initiate leaving?
The less than stellar resort reviews tell me that there are two sides to this story.

Most important:  *It is not the owners fault that HGVC and the Committee cannot agree. So why is HGVC penalizing the HGV enrolled certificate holders; they are the one's who lose the most from this disagreement. And they diligently paid MF every year.*


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 90% sounds high but if this is the case, and they were truly unhappy with HVC, and could find services for less, then why didn't the committee initiate leaving?
> The less than stellar resort reviews tell me that there are two sides to this story.
> 
> Most important:  *It is not the owners fault that HGVC and the Committee cannot agree. So why is HGVC penalizing the HGV enrolled certificate holders; they are the one's who lose the most from this disagreement. And they diligently paid MF every year.*



I assume the committee is the same as HOA board, and if so they are elected and represent the owners..  So they are kind of the same..  As an outsider, this whole thing seems to be over the resort standards and underfunded reserves.  Probably be impossible to know but i do wonder if HGV gave the resort a timeframe to fix these issues, but they decided on a different longer timeline to resolve the issues.  If there really is anything close to 90% non-enrolled in HGV, then i can see the board deciding on a less costly approach and assuming they were safe.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> This position from the Coylumbridge Board is suspect - GBP 500k is not the "management fee" it's the totality of the "management" related budget (at least based on the 2019 AGM document posted earlier where this appears to relate to the "Under Management Agreement" line item).  That has to include all kinds of costs to run the resort PLUS whatever "management fee" HGVC charges.  The total budget for 2018 was only 1.3m, of which 596k was "Under Management Agreement" another 542k were supplier costs (electricity, water, cleaning, refuse collection...etc) and 242k for refurbishments.  That means "Under Management Agreement" has to include all the staffing/salary costs of employees at the resort (front desk, maintenance...etc) PLUS the "management fee".
> 
> Maybe I look at it differently, but in the past conversations and debate about what these management companies like MVC/Vistana/HGVC take, I have always been focused on the "effectively" license fee of 10-15% of total budget that most seem to charge.  I don't think the 500k referred to represents that fee.
> 
> Now, perhaps a fair point that Coylumbridge has been paying 500k+ for "management" associated costs, but it's not like HGVC is sucking all that up....it's paying resort staff salaries with a good chunk of that.


Yup and HGV provided a breakdown at the 2021 Annual General Meeting when the question was submitted. 



​​​​​


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## timsi (Nov 2, 2022)

I have a hard time believing anyone who claims to speak on behalf of others, let alone 90% of any group.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> I assume the committee is the same as HOA board, and if so they are elected and represent the owners..  So they are kind of the same..



While I don't disagree with the rest of your statement about the reserves etc.  and what you say about HOAs is true in theory but...Do you honestly believe any timeshare owner has control over who sits on the HOA and how the HOA operates?

Even more confusing is that these are RTUs not deeds so which *owners *are the committee really representing if HGVC or a Scottish corporation owns the deed? How much teeth does this committee really have since these are leases?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 90% sounds high but if this is the case, and they were truly unhappy with HVC, and could find services for less, then why didn't the committee initiate leaving?


It is usually much easier for the managing entity to drop the resort than the owners to drop the managing entity.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2022)

There’s language in several HGVC documents about terminating participation.

*HGVC 2022 Disclosure Document* (pages 4 & 5 - link)

_*IV. MEMBERSHIP IN THE CLUB*_​_Membership in the Club is also available to owners at Club Eligible Resorts. Upon the execution of a Club Enrollment Agreement that is accepted by HGVC, payment of all necessary fees, and confirmation that the owner has a Home Week at a Club Eligible Resort, the Club Member is entitled to full benefits of membership in the Club. By execution of the Club Enrollment Agreement, Club Members acknowledge that membership in the Club cannot be transferred, sold or assigned. The Club Enrollment Agreement with HGVC is a separate and distinct contract from any contract with any Association or developer or seller of a vacation ownership or vacation membership plan…._​
_HGVC RESERVES THE RIGHT TO SUSPEND OR TERMINATE PARTICIPATION OF AN AFFILIATED RESORT IN THE CLUB IF THE AFFILIATED RESORT FAILS TO MAINTAIN AND MANAGE THE ACCOMMODATIONS AND FACILITIES OF THE AFFILIATED RESORT AT THE LEVEL OF QUALITY AND CUSTOMER SERVICE ESTABLISHED BY HGVC FOR ALL AFFILIATED RESORTS FROM TIME TO TIME. AN AFFILIATED RESORT’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CLUB MAY ALSO BE TERIMINATED OR SUSPENDED IF THE ASSOCIATION FILES BANKRUPTCY OR BECOMES INSOLVENT. HGVC SHALL NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE THE AFFILIATION OF A CLUB RESORT DURING THE FIRST FIVE YEAR’S OF OPERATION OR SO LONG AS THE DEVELOPER OF A CLUB RESORT CONTROLS THE OWNERS ASSOCIATION OF THE PROJECT, AS SET OUT IN THE GOVERNING DOCUMENTS FOR THE CLUB RESORT._​​_In the event of suspension or termination of an Affiliated Resort, no further reservation requests originating from Club Members at such Affiliated Resort will be accepted until such time, if ever, that the Affiliated Resort's participation in the Club is reinstated. HGVC will honor all reservation confirmations secured by Club Members with a start date occurring prior to suspension or termination of an Affiliated Resort. However, HGVC may suspend or terminate a confirmed reservation wherein the start date occurs after the effective date of such termination or suspension._​
*HGVC 2022 Club Reference Guide Document *(page 19 - link)

*Loss or Suspension of Use *​_In the event an Affiliated Resort’s participation in the Club is suspended or terminated, Members who own interests at such suspended or terminated resorts may have their membership suspended or terminated._​
*Governing Document under Manage HOA*
​_*From my HGVC Flamingo Resort Declaration of Covenants, Codes & Restrictions Document*_​​


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott has parted ways with several resorts over the years, none of them were purpose built by Marriott though. Marriott is a little different in a way in that they are pure weeks with a land trust as well. So they have weeks at every resort that are part of the Abound/DC Trust. So even if they were to drop a resort, Marriott owners could still potentially book those resorts if the trust retained ownership. Owners at the resorts however would lose the ability to elect Club Points and would no longer be able to participate in Abound. Marriott could continue to use the inventory owned by the Trust to fulfil Abound reservations, it would just be individual weeks owners left in the lurch.
> 
> Another good example is Hyatt Grand Aspen that left Hyatt Residence Club sometime in 2021. HRC owns a number of weeks there in the HPP trust. HPP trust owners can still make reservations at Aspen even though the resort is no longer managed by Hyatt Residence Club. Individual interval owners at Aspen can no longer reserve other Hyatt Residence Club resorts.


Thanks for the examples. For the deeded resorts they dropped. Were there any transition, grandfathering. or accommodation for MVC enrolled owners? Or did they kick them to the curb?


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## Anthony Schmid (Nov 2, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> i would hope that all HGV owners there have cancelled their fixed weeks for 2023 and 2024, received the points into their HGV account, and booked something in 2023. If they want to use the points at another HGV resort.


I own 6 weeks at Coylumbridge and cancelled all my weeks in 2023 and 2024 before this happened. So far, I still see the 2024 points in my HGVC account


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## HuskerATL (Nov 2, 2022)

Anthony Schmid said:


> I own 6 weeks at Coylumbridge and cancelled all my weeks in 2023 and 2024 before this happened. So far, I still see the 2024 points in my HGVC account


I wonder if it is better to book something to tie up the points? They said all reservations will be honored in 2023 but you could cancel later next year to move them around to where you want to use them


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## MattnTricia (Nov 2, 2022)

Deleted


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## MickeyBlue (Nov 2, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> True. it will have a chilling effect. I feel for the Coylumbridge owners



I think this is going to have a chilling effect on all the Scotland properties.  No one is going to want to buy at the other locations knowing they can also be withdrawn from HGV at anytime.


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## bcoh630 (Nov 3, 2022)

Just read all the posts on TUG.  My thoughts -  sorry lengthy post

We own 3 properties -  Elara and two Coylumbridge.  We bought Coylumbridge in early 2021 so will only enjoy the HGVC points from Coylumbridge for 3 years (2021-2023).

There are 61 lodges with 50 ownership weeks =  ~3000 unit weeks.  I read that HGVC owners account for 10% of those unit-weeks.

It would be GREAT to get the perspective from the Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club (CHLC) committee.  There were a couple posts saying the HOA committee was surprised like we were.  That sounds hard to believe.  

I read and think there could be 4 reasons for HGVC’s exit.  I believe HGVC could have prevented this exit …  In all of these cases, I believe HGVC did not act responsibly.  I would love to take them to court and grill them on their stewardship.  Regardless, HGVC could have communicated to its Coylumbridge HGVC members what was going on along with remedies, before dumping us.  

1 – Underfunded reserves.    **  HGVC was managing the resort.  I never saw any petition or plea from HGVC to raise MF’s.  Other HGVC properties have had assessments levied to fix the reserves.  With 3000 units-weeks, a $500 assessment would have raised $1.5M.  Maybe more was needed, so do a couple $500 assessments.  I know that Coylumbridge had many “deadbeat” owners behind on paying their MF’s.  IMO Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club (CHLC) sat on this too long.  I think they finally declared deeds were forfeited and could be re-sold.

2 -  Coylumbridge HGVC sales were diluting other, more profitable HGVC sales.  ** This was totally in HGVC’s control.  They could have stopped HGVC sales ANY time and grandfathered existing sales in HGVC.

3 -  Maybe Coylumbridge was not an attractive location for vacationers.  Maybe too many units were left empty along with HGVC owners (always) using their points elsewhere.  ** HGVC is a big company; I can’t imagine this would drive their exit.  The Coylumbridge HGVC sales office could have changed their focus from HGVC sales to local UK owners who would use the units.

4 – UK was very strict on travelCOVID-19.  Travel was shutdown much longer than in the US.  So maybe Coylumbridge got hit hard with this.  **  HGVC is a big company; I can’t imagine this would drive their exit.

We bought our HGVC Coylumbridge units for the points, with little intention of visiting there.  I bought from the HGVC sales office there.  So I expected my investment in a HGVC property was safe.  My opinion/faith in HGVC is gone now.  Forget HGVC Max – not very defined benefits that are still moving around with HGVC sales folks making promises that won’t be kept.  No more HGVC sales from me.  (We have never stayed at our Elara unit after our purchase either.)


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## ocdb8r (Nov 3, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> While I don't disagree with the rest of your statement about the reserves etc.  and what you say about HOAs is true in theory but...Do you honestly believe any timeshare owner has control over who sits on the HOA and how the HOA operates?
> 
> Even more confusing is that these are RTUs not deeds so which *owners *are the committee really representing if HGVC or a Scottish corporation owns the deed? How much teeth does this committee really have since these are leases?


Keep in mind there are lots of flavors of "RTU" so it's hard for this to be a useful characterization.  In the case of the HGVC Scottish resorts, these are set up as a sort of land trust whereby there is an appointed (Bank) trustee and the Owners' Committee directs the trustee and manages maintenance and use of the assets (the deeded land and buildings) in the trust - there are no "leases" involved for these three resorts.  While it's true what you are issued when you buy at these resorts is a "Holiday Certificate" rather than a deed, it operates very closely to a deed (unlike some other RTUs).  The rights are perpetual (no sunset like seen in many Mexico RTUs), it gives the owner the right to occupy a specific week in a specific unit, it gives the holder a right to vote for the Owners' Committee (effectively the HOA) AND it gives the holder a share of the proceeds should the property in the trust be disposed of (equal to the proportional values of each initial Holiday Certificate sold - so the developer/management company gets nothing special on a liquidation like this).  Such a sale would need to be approved by the Owners' Committee and all Holiday Certificate owners.

As to the Owners' Committee composition, there are 5 representatives, 2 of which are reserved for the "Founding Member" (developer or whomever acquired the developer rights in this case as I think HGVC acquired these rights from the actual developers) and 3 of which are elected by Holiday Certificate Owners.  From my observation it is much more transparent than the US based timeshare HOAs I have observed.  There doesn't seem to be any secret committee "vetting" candidates and approving who appears on the ballot.  The right of the "Founding Member" to elect 2 of the 5 Owners' Committee members appears to be the sole "special" right afforded to them (aside from some rights that existed while the resort was in initial sales).

Now, none of that guarantees the Owners' Committee properly or truly _*represents *_the owners, but I think in the case of these three resorts the owners do have an ability to elect representatives that control the Owners' Committee (HOA) via majority control AND that committee has real power to direct the management of the resort. 

I am VERY unhappy with how HGVC handled this BUT as this thread demonstrates, there is clearly a lot at play here.  HGVC was collecting 135K in true "management fees" (as I think of them....effectively license fees) along with some measure of rental and other income from operating the resort.  They also effectively "owned" the developer (or "Founding Member") rights which they could have actually sold or transferred to another management Company (as the original developer did to them)....which they appear to have just walked away from.  All that tells me someone at HGVC (rightly or wrongly) saw the relationship, management and future of this resort irreparable.   


That could have been down to a reality that the majority of owners (but certainly the Owners' Committee) weren't using the "Club" and saw HGVC management adding limited to no value to the resort while drawing a "management fee" which looks to be probably 10% of the annual operating budget. 

If anything, the actions of HGVC leads me to a conclusion that the Owners' Committee at Coylumbridge (and I believe the other Scottish resorts) likely has sufficient "teeth" to get HGVC to walk away without even having to go through the required Owners' Vote to boot them. I am equally surprised as @bcoh630 that HGVC didn't somehow try to rectify this.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 3, 2022)

MickeyBlue said:


> I think this is going to have a chilling effect on all the Scotland properties.  No one is going to want to buy at the other locations knowing they can also be withdrawn from HGV at anytime.


It should have a chilling effect on ALL properties.  I still have yet to see a single HOA document or management contract that would not permit HGVC to walk away from any resort it wanted to (developed or not).


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## Cyberc (Nov 3, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> It should have a chilling effect on ALL properties.  I still have yet to see a single HOA document or management contract that would permit HGVC to walk away from any resort it wanted to (developed or not).


I'm in that boat too. My assumption was that HGV could end affiliates but not developed which seems to be case to Coy.


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## Talent312 (Nov 3, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> My assumption was that HGV could end affiliates but not developed which seems to be case to Coy.



HGVC has the right to end the Club and leave all owners with only their home resort.

"*Program Changes.* Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to..., are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice. Any such changes may or may not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change." 
-- The Rules, p.15.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 3, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> Most HGVC properties incorporate HGVClub into its deed, making HGVClub mandatory, and only exigent circumstances could force a property out of HGVClub, like HOA not willing to maintain HGVC standards, which are also defined in the deed. So this scenario is highly unlikely - almost impossible. Affiliates however are just that - affiliates, and affiliation can be easily shut down. As we just saw.


Please show us any such "deed" that has this language.  This language exists in many property CCRs/bye-laws...etc but I have never seen it in a deed.  In addition, even if there, this would not preclude HGVC from walking away.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 3, 2022)

Anthony Schmid said:


> I own 6 weeks at Coylumbridge and cancelled all my weeks in 2023 and 2024 before this happened. So far, I still see the 2024 points in my HGVC account



If I were you I'd book those points into reservations of some kind to hold them. Makes it one step harder for them to claw them back.


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## Huskerpaul (Nov 3, 2022)

Talent312 said:


> Any such changes may or may not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change."
> -- The Rules, p.15.



While it is clear that they had the power to do this, I’m really surprised they didn’t grandfather in existing owners.  Many timeshare systems change qualifications for their program, but from what I could find this is done prospectively while protecting those existing owners currently receiving that benefit. DVC must have five or six different dates qualifying an owner for a blue card. 

The word used in these documents is “may”, not “shall”. HGV didn’t have to pull the rug out from under existing owners. They chose to do that and that leaves me with no trust in any HGV product.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 3, 2022)

Huskerpaul said:


> While it is clear that they had the power to do this, I’m really surprised they didn’t grandfather in existing owners.  Many timeshare systems change qualifications for their program, but from what I could find this is done prospectively while protecting those existing owners currently receiving that benefit. DVC must have five or six different dates qualifying an owner for a blue card.
> 
> The word used in these documents is “may”, not “shall”. HGV didn’t have to pull the rug out from under existing owners. They chose to do that and that leaves me with no trust in any HGV product.



They still might grandfather. Their FAQ says that they will make a decision on points and Elite status beyond December 2023 in 90 days. Why they didn't think this through upfront is beyond me, however they may have had to cancel abruptly to give 3-months notice to the committee in compliance with the management contract which may have been up for renewal Feb 1 2023. Perhaps they didn't want to be stuck with this management agreement for another year (or multi-year?) and needed to act quickly?

Leaving owners like this is very un-HGVC-like behavior as they are usually a class-act. Let's wait and see.

See my post here on possible reasoning for dropping Coy.









						HGVCLUB leaving owners “high and dry” by pulling out of properties
					

As delineated in a Hilton Coylumbridge post on TUG through the tile “HGV Coylumbridge Purchase”, HGVCLUB is pulling out of the Hilton Grand Vacation Club at Coylumbridge, meaning they will no longer have involvement with the property in about 3 months. For those like my wife and I who purchased...




					tugbbs.com


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## bnoble (Nov 3, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> Please show us any such "deed" that has this language.  This language exists in many property CCRs/bye-laws...etc but I have never seen it in a deed.  In addition, even if there, this would not preclude HGVC from walking away.


Even if there is some mention of the Club (and maybe there is), it almost certainly is done by reference to an external document---and that document almost certainly has language in it allowing the developer/management company to change it essentially unilaterally.

Worse, if this resort was sold as weeks that were then "converted" to HGVC membership (which sounds likely given the Holiday Certificate model), the conversion contract certainly has a clause that allows the week to be withdrawn from the club at the latter's discretion for any number of reasons, which include not maintaining "quality". I know the Wyndham conversion contracts all have this language, and I can't imagine Hilton didn't do the same thing. What you own is what is stated on the Certificate; the conversion/enrollment in the Club is a separate step.


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## emoneybug (Nov 3, 2022)

Anthony Schmid said:


> I own 6 weeks at Coylumbridge and cancelled all my weeks in 2023 and 2024 before this happened. So far, I still see the 2024 points in my HGVC account



I bought 1 week in early 2022 at Coy, have cancelled 22, 23, 24 and used up all but 2496 in 2024 in RCI and HGV system, so walking away at this point is an easy decision for me.  Just the MF for 2 years is about 1/2 the former value of selling it out right so at least that takes some of the $financial sting off of HGV's decision.


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## emoneybug (Nov 3, 2022)

bcoh630 said:


> Just read all the posts on TUG.  My thoughts -  sorry lengthy post
> 
> We own 3 properties -  Elara and two Coylumbridge.  We bought Coylumbridge in early 2021 so will only enjoy the HGVC points from Coylumbridge for 3 years (2021-2023).
> 
> ...


I was able to use my Coy 2024 week via RCI points months ago, FYI, maybe you can do the same or is it now too late to deposit 2024 week to HGVC / RCI points?  Do you plan on paying maint fee on 2023 or walking away like me?


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## frank808 (Nov 3, 2022)

Reading all these posts about owners of multiple weeks at Columbridge I already count 30 or so weeks. So the Facebook person is saying there is less than 10% in HGVC? 

Of these 300 interests, from this small section of people on TUG, we have accounted for 30 interests. So just this small section of people on TUG accounts for 10% of all the interests enrolled in HGVC? I would like to see where the FB poster has gotten their numbers. Does not seem to me that less than 10% were enrolled. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2022)

frank808 said:


> Reading all these posts about owners of multiple weeks at Columbridge I already count 30 or so weeks. So the Facebook person is saying there is less than 10% in HGVC?


I saw that comment in FB as well, and frankly, I'm sure they were just pulling numbers from a dark place.  I have zero confidence that the person was speaking from any level of actual knowledge or authority.

Kurt


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## Sky313 (Nov 3, 2022)

well i have 5 so make that at least 35 wks+


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## Nowaker (Nov 4, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> pulling numbers from a dark place



95.27% people pull numbers from a dark place.

I love that term.


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## Talent312 (Nov 4, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> 95.27% people pull numbers from a dark place.
> I love that term.



I get my numbers from an egg carton, which is always dark until I open the lid.
.


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## dayooper (Nov 4, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> 95.27% people pull numbers from a dark place.
> 
> I love that term.



68% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


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## timsi (Nov 4, 2022)

I see 61 lodges on the resort map which means 3172 interests. Is this a different resort?









						Coylumbridge resort map - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club
					

PDF version of resort map




					www.coylumbridge.info


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## ocdb8r (Nov 4, 2022)

2 weeks a year held back for maintenance.  3050 intervals.


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## escanoe (Nov 4, 2022)

Talent312 said:


> I get my numbers from an egg carton, which is always dark until I open the lid.
> .



That is why you always have things eggsactly right. Now I understand.


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## Sky313 (Nov 5, 2022)

Anyone know the consequences of not paying for maintenance fees starting in 2024 if wanting to get out these coylumbridge holiday contracts as presumably they will be hard to sell.


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## Eric B (Nov 5, 2022)

Talent312 said:


> I get my numbers from an egg carton, which is always dark until I open the lid.
> .





escanoe said:


> That is why you always have things eggsactly right. Now I understand.


I get my numbers out of the refrigerator. I think the light is out when the door is closed, but haven’t been able to verify that….


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## Cyberc (Nov 5, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> Anyone know the consequences of not paying for maintenance fees starting in 2024 if wanting to get out these coylumbridge holiday contracts as presumably they will be hard to sell.


If you don’t pay, they will eventually take back you week(s) if you are located in the UK/Scotland/Ireland it might be easier for them to try and collect the debt.


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## Sky313 (Nov 5, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> If you don’t pay, they will eventually take back you week(s) if you are located in the UK/Scotland/Ireland it might be easier for them to try and collect the debt.


any idea if it will affect one's credit rating if i'm US based?


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## Cyberc (Nov 5, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> any idea if it will affect one's credit rating if i'm US based?


My best guesstimate is that it won’t. I think collecting funds abroad is very cost consuming and then it might just be easier to take back the ownership.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 5, 2022)

These are RTU's, not deeds so less paperwork to cancel the contract but is it worth a lawyers fees to chase  $600 - $800 per year MF internationally? Most lawyers I know start at at least $1000 - $3000 retainer just to get started on domestic cases in the USA.  And what are they going to do? Write letters? Call? The resort would be spending HOA money on lawyers and recover nothing.

However, I am not a lawyer and would love a lawyer to weigh in.

If the HOA was wise, they would simply accept deedbacks (RTU cancellation) from the reportedly 10% of HGVC enrolled owners and call it "no harm, no foul." It's not the HGV enrolled owners fault this happened.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 5, 2022)

I think that Craigendarroch does use a debt collection agency in the US; I think they report to credit bureaus and attempt to collect for 2-3 years and then throw in the towel.  Agreed it wouldn't make sense for them to pursue it to a court judgment, but using a debt collection service that just takes a cut doesn't cost them much to make some attempt at recovery.  Remember, they've got HGVC connections/resources to assist.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 5, 2022)

duplicate deleted.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 6, 2022)

Did the Coylumbridge Owners Committee ever say anything to owners after their meeting with HGVC on Friday?


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## Cyberc (Nov 6, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> Did the Coylumbridge Owners Committee ever say anything to owners after their meeting with HGVC on Friday?


There were supposed to come with a statement, but nothing have been sent yet.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 6, 2022)

There is a note on the Craig owners website now:

*From your Chairman*
_It was announced by HGV on 1 November that it will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge with effect from 1 February.  This note is to reassure owners that there is no cause for concern at Craigendarroch.  The news arises from circumstances that are unique to Coylumbridge – which I understand – and does not affect or change HGV’s management relationship with other Scottish resorts.

I sought specific assurance on this from Neil Hutchinson, Senior Vice President at HGV, and he replied as follows: ‘Please rest assured that HGV is fully committed to continuing our relationship with Craigendarroch Lodges. We are pleased with the continued improvement in our working relationship with your committee and owners’. 

Peter Drury
Chairman_


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## GT75 (Nov 6, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> There were supposed to come with a statement, but nothing have been sent yet.


I am also surprised that we haven't received an email yet.     I don't know what that means.


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## CrazyAsian (Nov 6, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> There is a note on the Craig owners website now:
> 
> *From your Chairman*
> _It was announced by HGV on 1 November that it will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge with effect from 1 February.  This note is to reassure owners that there is no cause for concern at Craigendarroch.  The news arises from circumstances that are unique to Coylumbridge – which I understand – and does not affect or change HGV’s management relationship with other Scottish resorts.
> ...


Would you still buy into Craigendarroch after this statement?


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## dayooper (Nov 6, 2022)

CrazyAsian said:


> Would you still buy into Craigendarroch after this statement?



Great question! I’m not sure I can
Answer that as my better half most definitely would not.


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## Elster (Nov 6, 2022)

COY emailed me to respond to my note to them seeking some clarifications, as I own 2 properties there - to quote "It was a complete bolt out of the blue when we were given the news by HGV management on Tuesday"


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## escanoe (Nov 6, 2022)

GT75 said:


> I am also surprised that we haven't received an email yet.     I don't know what that means.



I am a TUGer that thinks We may be a little too prone to talk about lawsuits. But I could see them being a bit worried abt litigation. I’m doubtful they were as taken by surprise by HGVC’s decision as has been represented here.

They were selling these things right up until the day it happened like there was no tomorrow. On top of that, the value of one of the certificates for all current owners (as determined by the resale market) is likely nose-diving. They are wise to take a minute and think abt what they put on an official communication.


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## Lodemia (Nov 6, 2022)

Sue had literally sent me two more weeks to consider the night before. The night before…


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## Lodemia (Nov 6, 2022)

My challenge with this is that it wasn’t the Colyumbridge owners club that was reselling, it was HGVC UK.  There’s a lot of ways they can handle this and a lot of things Hilton could offer to make it right.


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## Nowaker (Nov 7, 2022)

As part of the purchasing process of Coy, I was sent a Q&A. This is question number 1:





Security, biatch! I feel reassured now.


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## Elster (Nov 7, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> My challenge with this is that it wasn’t the Colyumbridge owners club that was reselling, it was HGVC UK.  There’s a lot of ways they can handle this and a lot of things Hilton could offer to make it right.


You're totally right , as the management of COY and the HGV were always treated (and rightly so) like separate businesses ... which of course they were. HGV COY need to answer some questions here around what they intend to actually do for us ... I'd have expected HGVC to treat their owners better


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## Roamer (Nov 7, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> Sue had literally sent me two more weeks to consider the night before. The night before…


I stayed at the Coylumbridge Hotel about 6 weeks ago and had gone in to see Sue. She wasn't working that day, but she did send me some weeks that were available, none of which I was keen on. Rather glad she never followed up with any other units.

This does put me off considering Craigendarroch.


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## Cyberc (Nov 7, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> As part of the purchasing process of Coy, I was sent a Q&A. This is question number 1:
> 
> View attachment 68126
> 
> Security, biatch! I feel reassured now.


I dont know if the owners committee has any legal standing here. HGV has sold all the weeks with their names on all the paper work. Question is can they just back out, without any compensation/grandfathering to/of buyers which bought their ownership in good faith?

I'm still keen on knowing WHY this went down as it did.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

IMO...The Committee has a role based on the constitution for COY. How that works between the HC holder and the committee will depend on the constitution. Is the Committee working on behalf of the deeded property owners (i.e. The Scottish corporation that owns the lands and buildings) to collect maintenance fees and hire/manage the management company (HGV)? or for the benefit of the HC RTU holders? 

re: what happened. I believe there are 2 sides to this story. I am having a hard time believing that the Committee was blindsided by HGV. The signals were there with the Hilton hotel pulling out, low customer reviews of the resort, and only 10% reported enrollment in HGV. It also sounds like there were significant disagreements based on the Q&A, most likely over more money needed to renovate the property up to standards.

Could it be

a) Denial?

b) In protection of the Coy HC owners interests. With Apollo/Diamond now involved, which are known for less than ideal practices, perhaps they were asking for egregious terms in the new management contract and the Committee pushed back.  Disagreements are not always bad.

c) Dereliction of duty by the Committee in not keeping the property up to Hilton standards and not realizing the changing dynamic with their management company (HGV)?

d) Purposeful. Perhaps with majority of non-HGV enrolled owners pushing for lower cost management and MF, forcing HGV to drop them was the only easy way to change management companies without a shareholder vote.


Despite this, I am shocked that HGV is not grandfathering their enrolled customers similar to other affiliates they have disengaged with in the past. The HC holders have nothing to do with these issues and bought the property in good faith based on the HGV brand.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...The Committee has a role based on the constitution for COY. How that works between the HC holder and the committee will depend on the constitution. Is the Committee working on behalf of the deeded property owners (i.e. The Scottish corporation that owns the lands and buildings) to collect maintenance fees and hire/manage the management company (HGV)? or for the benefit of the HC RTU holders?


I posted this upthread.  There is not a "corporation" that is the deeded owner of the property.  It is held in a trust, for the benefit of all the Holiday Certificate holders.  They are the sole beneficiaries to the trust and the Committee's role is to administer the property (hire a management company for the lodges, set the budget for expenditure, collect maintenance fees and pay the debts of the Club and associated trust).  The constitution also provides for what should happen in the event of any liquidation of the assets of the trust (which provides to distribution of any proceeds to Holiday Certificate owners).


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> I posted this upthread.  There is not a "corporation" that is the deeded owner of the property.  It is held in a trust, for the benefit of all the Holiday Certificate holders.  They are the sole beneficiaries to the trust and the Committee's role is to administer the property (hire a management company for the lodges, set the budget for expenditure, collect maintenance fees and pay the debts of the Club and associated trust).  The constitution also provides for what should happen in the event of any liquidation of the assets of the trust (which provides to distribution of any proceeds to Holiday Certificate owners).



So who owns the deed and buildings to the property if not this Scotland investment company? The Holiday Certs are RTUs with no land or building ownership rights i.e. a perpetual lease.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So who owns the deed and buildings to the property if not this Scotland investment company? *The Holiday Certs are RTUs with no land or building ownership rights i.e. a perpetual lease.*


As I have posted before - this is not correct.  There is no "lease". The land is held in Trust fbo the Owners Club (which is composed of its members).

The Holiday Certificates do have "ownership rights" depending on what this means to you.  The certificate itself only guarantees use of a specific unit in a specific week in perpetuity as well as membership in the Owners Club.  As a member in the owners club you have ownership type rights and obligations, including the right to elect members of the Owners' Committee, obligations to fund the financial needs of the Committee (which includes management and maintenance of the property and buildings) and finally a right to share in any proceeds should the property be sold (such proceeds to be divided according to the relative initial purchase price of each Holiday Certificate).


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

So help me to understand this: Is this a land and property trust similar to MVC DP trust in which HC holders own a share of the land and property trust. Key difference is your shares are a fixed week vs. points and the trust only consists of one property?


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## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2022)

I think that's probably a useful way of looking at it, although I suspect it is it's own Scottish "flavor" of such an arrangement.  Bottom line, I think that's a more useful way of thinking about it compared to as a lease/RTU.

I might add, it's likely better than the MVC DP trust as I don't know that points owners have a right to any distribution on liquidation (unless maybe the whole trust is liquidated....never going to happen, whereas in Scotland it's at least remotely likely).


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## drucifer (Nov 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So help me to understand this: Is this a land and property trust similar to MVC DP trust in which HC holders own a share of the land and property trust. Key difference is your shares are a fixed week vs. points and the trust only consists of one property?



The difference is the difference between having an ownership deed in a property and owning a share of stock in a company that owns a property.

Should the deed owners, through the board with a vote, or the "holiday certificate" holders, through voting their shares (certificates), choose to approve something (or disapprove something), then as one winnows it down, the difference becomes quite a bit smaller.

I mean, does owning a "stock certificate" with rights to one specific week in one specific unit of accommodation really differ from owning a deed that has a 1/50th fractional ownership to a specific unit a specific week?  It seems the only difference is how it relates to the government (a security vs. a recorded deed).  Arguably, the certificate is a better deal as it can be traded/exchanged/sold without the need for a title search, tax stamps, or a closing agent/attorney.


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## Eric B (Nov 7, 2022)

That sounds similar to owning a timeshare/fractional through a fidecomiso for one in Mexico in the restricted zone.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 7, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> I sought specific assurance on this from Neil Hutchinson, Senior Vice President at HGV, and he replied as follows: ‘Please rest assured that HGV is fully committed to continuing our relationship with Craigendarroch Lodges. We are pleased with the continued improvement in our working relationship with your committee and owners’.


generally corporations make such statements when they are going to do the opposite. E.g. there are going to be no layoffs after a merger. All downgrades are dressed up as enhancements.

I don't believe anything HGVC says.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

Thanks all for clarifying.

@Lodemia Great stock analogy to get my head around this.

This is exactly my thought. Given all HGV properties are owned by owners via a deed or share of a trust with both offering rights to use during a specific time period. Both have HOAs representing owners. HGVC manages the resort.

So does it really matter that HGVC has "developed" vs. "Affiliate" resort if the resort has sold out and  they just manage the resorts? Can't they simply walk from managing any resort deeded or HC if they discontinue their contract with the HOA?


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 7, 2022)

I just took a look at my Deed from Kings Land,  it specifics that the deed gives me three things:

1) undivided percentage interest in the project
2) Right to use my unit on an annual basis
3) Membership in HGV Club.

It also state that these items cannot be separated from each other.  I don't have my Elara deed handy, so i am not sure of the wording there.  I am not a a lawyer, but that seems like my membership is not really negotiable..  

Maybe there is more flexibility at other resorts, such as one where membership is optional.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 7, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> I just took a look at my Deed from Kings Land,  it specifics that the deed gives me three things:
> 
> 1) undivided percentage interest in the project
> 2) Right to use my unit on an annual basis
> ...


The benefits in the Club can change though and have.


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## Sky313 (Nov 7, 2022)

i for one would like to see the chariman's letter for why there was a breakup between hgvc and coylumbridge. I've seen the pics for Craiggendaraoch lodges and wouldn't necessarily say they have nicer interiors than Coylumbridge (based on pictures only) so i'm not sure if it's the condition of the lodge that is the issue.


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## Talent312 (Nov 7, 2022)

HGVC is not about to walk away from it's developed resorts.
That would be a last, umm "resort," becuz...

(1) HGVC has reserved inventory for H-Hotels and RCI, recovered
inventory and first-refusal take backs, which provides it with...
(a) ongoing sales activity at just about every resort; and
(b) control of the HOA's who do it's bidding.
(2) The resorts HGVC built are part of it's operational heritage and identity.

If there was a serious retrenchment, I'd say foreign affiliates, the ones built by others (So. Carolina, Bay Club), and lastly the SW  Florida affiliates (or the lessers of them) would be most at risk.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 7, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> The benefits in the Club can change though and have.


Yes, that's absolutely true.  we have own for quite a while and I have seen things change.  Fortunately so far most of the changes have not impacted my enjoyment.  Though obviously others than been impacted.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 7, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> Coylumbridge (based on pictures only


Not many pictures on the HGVC or Hilton website. Can you share where you found the photos?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 7, 2022)

ski_sierra said:


> Not many pictures on the HGVC or Hilton website. Can you share where you found the photos?











						The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club
					

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...




					www.coylumbridge.info


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## Sky313 (Nov 7, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club
> 
> 
> Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...
> ...


Yes this is where i was able to tour the lodges.  Re coylumbridge, i recall the virtual pdf brochures of the different lodges


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## ski_sierra (Nov 7, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club
> 
> 
> Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...
> ...





Sky313 said:


> Yes this is where i was able to tour the lodges.  Re coylumbridge, i recall the virtual pdf brochures of the different lodges



If the lodges look like this in reality then I am not sure what is the quality issue.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

Hard to tell from the photos. Coys ratings are lower. Remember some AirBnBs have gorgeous photos but the actual experience can be inferior with wear and tear.

I visited Craig this summer and it was on par with most HGVC resorts and in good repair. The kitchen was better stocked with utensils, plates and cutlery than some HGVC resorts. (Looking at you Lagoon Tower with only service for 6.) Nice white leather sofas and even a minibar complete with a martini shaker. The grounds and amenities were clean and in good shape.

Not luxury but clearly HCVC 4* class similar to the mainstay resorts.


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## Sky313 (Nov 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hard to tell from the photos. Coys ratings are lower. Remember some AirBnBs have gorgeous photos but the actual experience can be inferior with wear and tear.
> 
> I visited Craig this summer and it was on par with most HGVC resorts and in good repair. The kitchen was So
> stocked with utensils, plates and cutlery than some HGVC resorts. (Looking at you Lagoon Tower with only service for 6.) Nice white leather sofas and even a minibar complete with a martini shaker. The grounds and amenities were clean and in good shape.
> ...




I don't think you can go by tripadvisor for coylumbridge itself as it's mainly the hotel review which has poor reviews due to hotel management and other hotel issues.  The lodges are harder to find on reviews but i did find this:









						COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES, MANAGED BY HILTON GRAND VACATIONS -  Hotel Reviews (Aviemore, Scotland)
					

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges, Managed By Hilton Grand Vacations, Aviemore: See 5 traveler reviews, 29 candid photos, and great deals for Coylumbridge Highland Lodges, Managed By Hilton Grand Vacations, ranked #11 of 13 hotels in Aviemore and rated 5 of 5 at Tripadvisor.




					en.tripadvisor.com.hk
				




Per these pictures and review, the lodges don't seem that bad and seem comparible if not just as updated as the craiggendarach lodges. 

Here is additional pictures on the coylumbridge lodge page:









						The lodges - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club
					

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges are carefully positioned to take advantage of the peaceful wooded surroundings. With 61 self-catering lodges, varying in size, style and location, there’s something to suit everyone. Two and three-bedroom lodges (semi-detached and detached) are available for 3, 4, or...




					www.coylumbridge.info
				





Also the reviews from the HGVC page don't seem that bad either


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 7, 2022)

Hard to tell from photos. IMHO the purple plaid living room carpet and draperies in some units look frumpy to me. But the kitchens do not look too bad.


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## Ken555 (Nov 7, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> i for one would like to see the chariman's letter for why there was a breakup between hgvc and coylumbridge. I've seen the pics for Craiggendaraoch lodges and wouldn't necessarily say they have nicer interiors than Coylumbridge (based on pictures only) so i'm not sure if it's the condition of the lodge that is the issue.



I was at both properties in May. Craig was much, much, much nicer. Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1) but I really felt like I had warped back to the 70s when I was upstairs, and in the 2000s when I was in the kitchen. It’s not that it was bad, but that it just didn’t work (for me). Craig, on the other hand, was nice all over. I remarked at the time that I had zero interest in returning to Coy but could easily see myself buying Craig.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bizaro86 (Nov 7, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> There is a note on the Craig owners website now:
> 
> *From your Chairman*
> 
> ...



This is exactly the same message they would send if they were planning to not renew Craig when it comes up. Also, the phrase "continued improvement in our working relationship" sounds vaguely threatening to me.

If I was considering a Craig purchase (and given how many TS I currently own I'm not) I'd want to know when the HGVC management contract renews, and I'd delay purchasing until the next new one starts, as the that demonstrates that they have affirmatively renewed. 

TS prices almost never go up, so there isn't a reason to rush into a Craig purchase.


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## timsi (Nov 7, 2022)

Craigandaroch will probably stay in HGVC for the time being, but I doubt that HGVC will continue to allow their sales department to continue to do business as before. It makes zero sense to pay billions of dollars to acquire Diamond only to hear new owners bragging about paying next to nothing for “developer” weeks that also have rock bottom maintenance fees.  I hope though that HGVC will grandfather the current owners.


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## Sky313 (Nov 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I was at both properties in May. Craig was much, much, much nicer. Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1) but I really felt like I had warped back to the 70s when I was upstairs, and in the 2000s when I was in the kitchen. It’s not that it was bad, but that it just didn’t work (for me). Craig, on the other hand, was nice all over. I remarked at the time that I had zero interest in returning to Coy but could easily see myself buying Craig.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Out of curiosity did you stay at the craigendaroch lodge or suites


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## Ken555 (Nov 8, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> Out of curiosity did you stay at the craigendaroch lodge or suites



Lodge


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 8, 2022)

timsi said:


> ... that also have rock bottom maintenance fees.  I hope though that HGVC will grandfather the current owners.



Your statement makes it sound like the MF are purposefully low. Not true. The MF are actually on par with other HGV resorts like Tuscany so slightly more expensive than Vegas when you factor in historical exchange rates..

MF are lower now due to the strong dollar but that can shift in the future as the UK works its way out of it's economic difficulties.

Anyone outside the UK who buys there needs to stomach currency fluctuations.


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## GT75 (Nov 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1)


Sounds like you were in one of the original lodges (1-16).    To me, they have a strange layout.


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## Ken555 (Nov 8, 2022)

GT75 said:


> Sounds like you were in one of the original lodges (1-16). To me, they have a strange layout.



It wasn’t the layout that was off to me, but the way in which it was or was not renovated. It had a somewhat modern kitchen and yet bathrooms from the 70s, for instance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Blues (Nov 8, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Anyone outside the UK who buys there needs to stomach currency fluctuations.



Yes, it was brutal back in the early- to mid- 2000s, when it hovered around $2.00 per GBP.


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## PaulaS007 (Nov 8, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hard to tell from photos. IMHO the purple plaid living room carpet and draperies in some units look frumpy to me. But the kitchens do not look too bad.


You will find that a lot of Scottish hotels (I've never visited one of the timeshares but guess that is the same) have plaid carpets, even newly refurbished ones & purple in particular is a very Scottish colour


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## Nowaker (Nov 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> It wasn’t the layout that was off to me, but the way in which it was or was not renovated. It had a somewhat modern kitchen and yet bathrooms from the 70s, for instance.



Most American homes and hotels, including the good ones, still have combination shower/tubs with shower curtains. Like wtf, moving from Poland to the US was like a step back in time in terms of how bathrooms look. But that's not as wtf-y as British/Irish approach for homes, it's beyond belief. So if an American/Canadian complains about a bathroom, it's gotta be *really* nasty!


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## sunnysideal (Nov 9, 2022)

I’m the Facebook guy being quoted in this thread, own 4 weeks at Coylumbridge and just thought I’d try to clear a couple of things up.

Whilst I agree that I can’t possibly talk on behalf of 90% of owners, we’ll I can’t talk on behalf of anyone but myself and even then struggle, I do want to clarify that the number of owners being members of HGVC that I shared was supplied by HGV and added to minutes of a committee meeting as of November last year. There will be HGV owners who have multiple weeks so the number of weeks is certainly a higher percentage, but if 90% of owners are not in the club then the impact of HGV no longer offering that membership to owners is only affecting a minority.

As for issues, and the money involved, I can only give my opinion. The £550k being charged recently does indeed cover HGV staffing as well as a (quite reasonable) profit. My issue is that HGV have not been providing a good service, I’ve had lots of maintenance issues, from things like neglect of simple annual jobs like fresh outdoors paintwork, to me turning up to find that a joiner seemed to have left before finishing fitting windows. I just have too many examples of shoddy workmanship over my 4 lodges and that is all HGV, we employ them to do that and expect a standard. 

An example of something that I think is unreasonable, there is a staff of around 7 or 8 in the local team but they do virtually nothing in the way of maintenance and we pay external contractors to come in and do most of the work. It should be one or the other imo. If there’s a large maintenance team they can work, otherwise downsize and outsource.

There’s also been mention of the hotel, they are completely independent of us, nothing but neighbours with no business arrangement at all.


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## Elster (Nov 10, 2022)

sunnysideal said:


> I’m the Facebook guy being quoted in this thread, own 4 weeks at Coylumbridge and just thought I’d try to clear a couple of things up.
> 
> Whilst I agree that I can’t possibly talk on behalf of 90% of owners, we’ll I can’t talk on behalf of anyone but myself and even then struggle, I do want to clarify that the number of owners being members of HGVC that I shared was supplied by HGV and added to minutes of a committee meeting as of November last year. There will be HGV owners who have multiple weeks so the number of weeks is certainly a higher percentage, but if 90% of owners are not in the club then the impact of HGV no longer offering that membership to owners is only affecting a minority.
> 
> ...


What's your plan, assume you bought to go to Scotland from what you're saying? I bought there years ago and have been a few times but now I live in Aussie and there is zero chance of of that, I was very happy with the HGVC points and now that has been ruined and I have no idea what they are going to be worth, if anything


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## sunnysideal (Nov 11, 2022)

Elster said:


> What's your plan, assume you bought to go to Scotland from what you're saying? I bought there years ago and have been a few times but now I live in Aussie and there is zero chance of of that, I was very happy with the HGVC points and now that has been ruined and I have no idea what they are going to be worth, if anything


I live in Scotland and will either use my weeks or rent them out. 
Renting through HGV was expensive for what they did, took 20% to stick it on their crappy website with no details of which unit you’d be getting.
My hope is that an easy rental process and a bit of actual promotion of the lodges in the UK is going to be part of the new management company’s remit.
Aviemore is a very popular place to stay, there’s a new licencing scheme being introduced for private properties being used as holiday lets in a bid to keep houses for locals to be able to afford instead of second homes being bought up and rented out. That will take a bit of time to have an effect on the market, but longer term I think that will increase the rental value, and probably resale value as well.


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## Elster (Nov 11, 2022)

sunnysideal said:


> I live in Scotland and will either use my weeks or rent them out.
> Renting through HGV was expensive for what they did, took 20% to stick it on their crappy website with no details of which unit you’d be getting.
> My hope is that an easy rental process and a bit of actual promotion of the lodges in the UK is going to be part of the new management company’s remit.
> Aviemore is a very popular place to stay, there’s a new licencing scheme being introduced for private properties being used as holiday lets in a bid to keep houses for locals to be able to afford instead of second homes being bought up and rented out. That will take a bit of time to have an effect on the market, but longer term I think that will increase the rental value, and probably resale value as well.


yeah, I have no idea how much they are worth to rent out , I think my weeks are week 24 and week 25 , 2 bed units ... might be an option if I keep them


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## sunnysideal (Nov 11, 2022)

Elster said:


> yeah, I have no idea how much they are worth to rent out , I think my weeks are week 24 and week 25 , 2 bed units ... might be an option if I keep them


Depends what lodge number you have, but right now on the higvc.co.uk website there are listings asking £1470 for a week around then.


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## Elster (Nov 11, 2022)

Yeah I have one of the original (wk 24) and one of the "deluxe" (wk 25)
I resent paying 20% in fees to rent it though...


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## sunnysideal (Nov 12, 2022)

Elster said:


> Yeah I have one of the original (wk 24) and one of the "deluxe" (wk 25)
> I resent paying 20% in fees to rent it though...


I’ve got my fingers crossed that this can be lowered with a new management company. I’ve always wondered if HGV doing so little but charging so much was an attempt to push people towards their points instead.


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## Cyberc (Nov 12, 2022)

Elster said:


> Yeah I have one of the original (wk 24) and one of the "deluxe" (wk 25)
> I resent paying 20% in fees to rent it though...


Just wondered if you imagined that any company would do it for free?

if you rent for £1,450 which seems to be the going rate on higvc.co.uk and management charge 20% you still get £1,160. After paying your MF you still make money.

You still have the option to do it yourself if you wanna keep the extra money to yourself.

I think 20% is more than fair, but of course I would prefer just to be able to bank my points


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## Cyberc (Nov 12, 2022)

sunnysideal said:


> I’ve got my fingers crossed that this can be lowered with a new management company. I’ve always wondered if HGV doing so little but charging so much was an attempt to push people towards their points instead.


I don’t know how that marked is priced but hiring a NEW company now in a time like this I think we would be very lucky if prices don’t increase a lot.
Remember the fee that HGV charged was most likely negotiated years back or had a % of the overall cost. This is going to be different now, HGV knew what they had to work with and what maintenance the buildings required. A new company do not and will need to charge a fee according to that. 

My best guesstimate is that the MF will increase how much I don’t know.


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## GT75 (Nov 12, 2022)

sunnysideal said:


> was an attempt to push people towards their points instead.


Well, I think that question was already answered by HGV decision, NO.



sunnysideal said:


> I’ve got my fingers crossed that this can be lowered with a new management company.


That question will also be answered soon since the MF bills should be available first of the month.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 12, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> Did the Coylumbridge Owners Committee ever say anything to owners after their meeting with HGVC on Friday?


A response was posted on their website

Letters to Owners  (link)
Additional Information Sheet (link)


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## sunnysideal (Nov 12, 2022)

Cyberc said:


> I don’t know how that marked is priced but hiring a NEW company now in a time like this I think we would be very lucky if prices don’t increase a lot.
> Remember the fee that HGV charged was most likely negotiated years back or had a % of the overall cost. This is going to be different now, HGV knew what they had to work with and what maintenance the buildings required. A new company do not and will need to charge a fee according to that.
> 
> My best guesstimate is that the MF will increase how much I don’t know.


Here’s my reason for thinking it won’t increase, HGV basically did almost none of the maintenance work themselves, they contracted most things out and that work is paid for directly by the owners in addition to the HGV management fee. We paid approx £550k per annum for them to do little more than staff reception, provide a booking system, and general admin.


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## sunnysideal (Nov 12, 2022)

GT75 said:


> Well, I think that question was already answered by HGV decision, NO.
> 
> 
> That question will also be answered soon since the MF bills should be available first of the month.


The meeting to decide those charges would already have taken place under normal circumstances, and if it was me I’d be leaving them where they are this year to cover potential HGV member defaults.


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## Sky313 (Dec 8, 2022)

Any update on the HGVC / Coylumbridge matter and elite status?


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## GT75 (Dec 8, 2022)

None that I have heard/seen.


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## Sky313 (Dec 9, 2022)

I released our 5 2024 reservations for coylumbridge lodges prior to the notification about separation from HGVC and still have some of the points in my bucket to use. Should i hold off using the point equivalents or will they claw it back somehow?


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## Cyberc (Dec 9, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> I released our 5 2024 reservations for coylumbridge lodges prior to the notification about separation from HGVC and still have some of the points in my bucket to use. Should i hold off using the point equivalents or will they claw it back somehow?


I would use them or at least place them in a placeholder reservation for later use in 2023. Not saying that they can't get them back but I assume it would make it more difficult to do so.


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## MattnTricia (Dec 9, 2022)

Sky313 said:


> I released our 5 2024 reservations for coylumbridge lodges prior to the notification about separation from HGVC and still have some of the points in my bucket to use. Should i hold off using the point equivalents or will they claw it back somehow?


I have my 2024 points in placeholder reservations for Summer 2023 - They have let me know that they will honor the reservations but if I cancel or modify the ones used with 2024 points they will not be returned.

Like others I am just going to hold out until I see what transpires over the next 60 days.  

At this point they already have my maintenance fees for 2023 and I fully intend on using those points.


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