# Paying the resort to change to the point system



## Teresa (Mar 7, 2012)

Just got back from Americano Beach Resort in Daytona Beach.   We were offered the opportunity to switch to RCI's point system for 'only $6995 per week'.   When we laughed, they offered to do all four of our weeks for that in total.   Together our four weeks would have been 194,000 RCI points.

We were offered a similar 'opportunity' many years ago within a 'timeshare group' (I think it was Fairfield) and the points we would have been assigned at that time were 233,000 for a 3 bdrm in Orlando.   We didn't bite.  I checked over the years to see how that was working and saw that the points went down for our particular unit to around 210,000 as newer resorts got added.  We have since gotten rid of that timeshare (traded it for one on the beach).

My gut reaction is that it's going to ruin things for perhaps the resort and the people who stay with the weeks system now in place if enough people fall for this.   It's just another money grab by the 'owners of the resort'  Gee - I thought the timeshare weeks owners were the owners of the resort - but I guess I've been mistaken all this time.  Yes - I was told that the resort owners (I think I was told 'a Canadian Teachers Association' - but I might be mistaken) had decided to put the vote out there for us to decide.  The points salesman told us that the resort put out a mailing several months ago asking the unit owners if they wanted to switch trading companies - from I.I. to RCI.  Must have missed those four envelopes.

Also, for the last several weeks I've been getting calls from Grand Seas - also in Daytona.  Also with I.I.  They keep wanting us (both of us must be present) to attend a webinar about a 'new opportunity' with the resort and to hear how the timeshare industry is changing.   While talking to the 'scheduler' (she claimed to be in 'owner services' with Grand Seas - not an outside company) I asked her if she knew what this was about.   She said she was only to schedule us for these webinars.  So I told her about what had happened at the Americano and she got pretty quiet.   And I even offered to bet her that the Grand Seas was offering the same type of 'opportunity'.   I put $100 on the table.  Of course, she had to ignore it (whether I was right or not).   I felt that she really didn't know what was being offered and she got pretty quiet while I was talking to her.   Mentioned, too, that I had been at the resort last week and it was a good 10 minutes before anyone even acknowledged that I had walked in the door let alone took care of me.  She apologized for that (quietly).  Once I got to the desk they were nice though (has not always been the case).  Also told her that I have rented out some weeks in the past but recently was turned down on a rental because they had checked some rating sites and the Grand Seas didn't do so well so I didn't get the rental.  But I digress (and I'm darn good at doing that!).  

For those of you who have lived through this (whether you went to the point system or not) how has that affected your ownership?   If a points owner decided to use their week from Tuesday to Tuesday, for instance, does that take two weeks out of the system?   Or will the resort just bunch all the points weeks together in as many units as are affected and keep those segregated?   Americano is a floating week system with the exception of 3 fixed weeks.   If the fixed week owners want to 'move' their week to run Monday to Monday (think Speed Weeks or Bike Week) - what does that do?


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## timeos2 (Mar 8, 2012)

The pools of inventory are (should be) kept independent of each other so points users get to reserve from their pool  - fixed get what they own. There is no degradation to ownership (if you ignore the thousands the points owner will likely pay to become a part of that system. 

A fixed owner cannot change their use week from say Saturady to a Monday as it is "fixed". There is no flexibility to a fixed ownership. That is why flost or points often are far more appealing to owners UNLESS it is a very seasonal resort where there are distinct times that have very low demand & thus value.  In areas such as Orlando, where demand tends to be fairly steady throughout the year, it isn't as important but there are still slower times. A float ownership in that type of area is much better than a fixed week IMO.


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## e.bram (Mar 8, 2012)

Your membership could be degraded if you have float weeks, because in some instances(Wyndham, Festeva, Innseason  & others)the points and management (reservations) are controlled by the same entity. They can reserve the best weeks for their points members leaving the float week owners the dogs.  You no longer compete with the other float owners but with the entity that is sitting in front of the computer and has is fingers on the reservation keyboard.


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## ronparise (Mar 8, 2012)

I own a fixed week at a small  resort..every week is a red week with RCI so the seasonal issue is not an issue here. The resort does have a problem in that we (the hoa) owns or is in control of a lot of weeks. The budget and our mf is based on the assumption of about 17% bad debt.  

Recently they brought in RCI points. and hired a sales and marketing company to sell the hoa controlled weeks. The hope is that by including RCI points these weeks will be easier to sell....They are of course offering us owners the opportunity for RCI points, but they are charging more than the $695 that you were quoted. 

If I dont convert...and Im not I dont see any change to my ownership...my week is my week and points owners wont have access to it

I hope Im wrong, but I dont see rci points as adding value to what we own, and therefore I dont see it as a solution  to our problem

In our case RCI points was brought in to try to solve a problem...I wonder why your  resort is doing it...probably just a money grab


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## eal (Mar 8, 2012)

The new system with RCI weeks of valuing deposits and exchanges with TPU's is pretty much the same as points, with no additional cost, except for the $$ to combine TPU's from more than one deposit.


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## Teresa (Mar 8, 2012)

*They wanted to charge nearly $7000 - not $695.*

We were quoted $6,995 to switch to points.  First - per week.   Then that amount for all four weeks.  Still said no.   I actually paid less than that to buy all four weeks (combined) on the resale market.



ronparise said:


> ....They are of course offering us owners the opportunity for RCI points, but they are charging more than the $695 that you were quoted.
> 
> I wonder why your  resort is doing it...probably just a money grab


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## Carolinian (Mar 11, 2012)

eal said:


> The new system with RCI weeks of valuing deposits and exchanges with TPU's is pretty much the same as points, with no additional cost, except for the $$ to combine TPU's from more than one deposit.



RCI is indeed running two different points systems at present, but do not assume that values in each match up.  They often do not.  While I would never suggest paying more than a nominal amount to switch from one to the other, the values may indeed work out quite different in one system as oppposed to the other.


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## TUGBrian (Mar 11, 2012)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/convert_timeshare_deeded_week_to_points.html


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## enamom (Mar 12, 2012)

Please help.  My mom bought a timeshare at Vacation Village Parkway last year and it has been disaster after disaster.  She has still not been able to use it at all.  For the past week or so, she has been playing phone tag with someone at RCI.  Today they finally caught up with each other and my mom was told that RCI is converting to an entirely point system in the near future.  Mom had the opportunity to convert her fixed week to points for just $5995 today only.  If she did not take this chance, she was told that she would not be able to exchange her week for anywhere other than Vacation Village resorts (there are currently 4).  Can someone please tell me how much of this is actually true and how much is just a marketing scheme?  I think her intention was to use her home resort every other year or so and then exchange the other years (this year she wants to go to New England somewhere) but she has no intention of spending more money on top of this disaster.


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## ampaholic (Mar 12, 2012)

enamom said:


> Please help.  My mom bought a timeshare at Vacation Village Parkway last year and it has been disaster after disaster.  She has still not been able to use it at all.  For the past week or so, she has been playing phone tag with someone at RCI.  Today they finally caught up with each other and my mom was told that RCI is converting to an entirely point system in the near future.  Mom had the opportunity to convert her fixed week to points for just $5995 today only.  If she did not take this chance, she was told that she would not be able to exchange her week for anywhere other than Vacation Village resorts (there are currently 4).  Can someone please tell me how much of this is actually true and how much is just a marketing scheme?  I think her intention was to use her home resort every other year or so and then exchange the other years (this year she wants to go to New England somewhere) but she has no intention of spending more money on top of this disaster.



There is a simple and elegant way to tell if the sales people are lying - just look and see if there lips are moving.

There are several ways to trade into many other (read thousands) resorts without changing to RCI Points. Just a few:

1. Trade with Platinum Interchange - zero cost to join, $89 per trade.
2. Join RCI Weeks - Costs to join and costs to exchange.
3. Join TUG - advertise through direct exchange - Free to join and exchange.

Options, options, options ...


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## Carolinian (Mar 12, 2012)

First, is this person really ''from RCI''?  It sounds more like a points conversion master broker, who have been telling lies like this for years.  RCI can be sleazy in a lot of things, but this sounds like someone MUCH sleazier, like a points conversion master broker.

Secondly, RCI does not even have a real Weeks system any more.  They aribitrary converted their former Weeks-based system to a points-based system, that is more appropriately called Points Lite.

Did your mother buy from the VV@P developer or did she buy resale?  If she bought from the developer, then what she has may likely be RCI Points anyway rather than Weeks / Points Lite, as that is about all the developer there has been selling for a number of years.  If it is a resale week, then that is a different story.

If what your mother has is a weeks-based timeshare, she is not even restricted to using RCI for exchange, as she has other exchange options including:
www.htse.net
www.dialanexchange.com
www.platinuminterchange.com
www.tradingplaces.com
and possibly (depending on week #): www.sfx-resorts.com 




enamom said:


> Please help.  My mom bought a timeshare at Vacation Village Parkway last year and it has been disaster after disaster.  She has still not been able to use it at all.  For the past week or so, she has been playing phone tag with someone at RCI.  Today they finally caught up with each other and my mom was told that RCI is converting to an entirely point system in the near future.  Mom had the opportunity to convert her fixed week to points for just $5995 today only.  If she did not take this chance, she was told that she would not be able to exchange her week for anywhere other than Vacation Village resorts (there are currently 4).  Can someone please tell me how much of this is actually true and how much is just a marketing scheme?  I think her intention was to use her home resort every other year or so and then exchange the other years (this year she wants to go to New England somewhere) but she has no intention of spending more money on top of this disaster.


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## LannyPC (Mar 12, 2012)

Teresa said:


> The points salesman told us that the resort put out a mailing several months ago asking the unit owners if they wanted to switch trading companies - from I.I. to RCI.  Must have missed those four envelopes.



We faced that situation too about a year and a half ago.  AS we were checking in, the check-in clerk was offering us a "free" gift to attend an "owners' update".  We bit.  The third salesman claimed that this opportunity package was mailed out to all the owners.  Funny, we missed that envelope too.  

Well, now we had this "one-time opportunity" to switch (for a paltry $5400) to this new points system because we apparently missed the mailing.

It makes you wonder why they needed the high-pressure sales team and the "free" gift to attend this presentation when, apparently, all or most of the other owners got this opportunity in the mail.


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## d2r4s (Mar 12, 2012)

*Points, good and bad*

A few truths, the industry is changing, time share developers and stockholders are in it to make money and so that is the truth.

While points have been around they are now gaining more interest since it is an easier form of commerece than fixed weeks.  As time passes a fixed week is still a fixed week and points will devalue due to increasing costs.  Example is a fixed week trades for a fixed week, subject to a set of values assigned to the fixed week and other fixed week. 

Go figure its not easy to always get what you want depending on the time share you own.  Trading or bartering has relative value systems which are not always visable.  

Points while they can deflate in value over time since new products comming in the market will have a higher price tag have more flexibility and are easier to determine as to real value.  Example is that if you bought x points in a resort, those same points tomarrow with cost more and get you less.  

I have converted to points systems with the products I own as they offer more flexibilty in using for days, weeks and other products like cruises, tours and other products.  This years we are doing two cruises with one of our resorts and a tour with the other as well as trading for weeks in the time share system itself as well as through a trading group.  One thing to note is that you can use less points in II than with the trading group sometimes.

Do I advocate one or the other, no.  It is important to listen, resaearch and determine the value to your interest in all the options.  If you like to go to your resort all the time it is defenitley not for you.  If you like to travel like us where we are going somewhere almost every month, then it makes sense.

One thing to keep in mind is that over time you will need to consider more points to do things and tug or ebay is a good place to buy points if they will let you do that inside the time share company you own and keep the points in the same account.  They will not let you use them for upgrading your status without buying something directly from them.  If you want to exchange in that company or in a trading company then points are points.

 



Teresa said:


> Just got back from Americano Beach Resort in Daytona Beach.   We were offered the opportunity to switch to RCI's point system for 'only $6995 per week'.   When we laughed, they offered to do all four of our weeks for that in total.   Together our four weeks would have been 194,000 RCI points.
> 
> We were offered a similar 'opportunity' many years ago within a 'timeshare group' (I think it was Fairfield) and the points we would have been assigned at that time were 233,000 for a 3 bdrm in Orlando.   We didn't bite.  I checked over the years to see how that was working and saw that the points went down for our particular unit to around 210,000 as newer resorts got added.  We have since gotten rid of that timeshare (traded it for one on the beach).
> 
> ...


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## BigRedOne (Mar 12, 2012)

Let's get to the way points started as I understand it.  Many years ago Fairfield was in the timeshare business and was one of the companies that was, shall we say, less than honest.  Of course that generated a lawsuit against Fairfield which apparently they lost.  Part of the settlement was that they could no longer sell timeshares.  I think they then developed the point system to circumvent the courts and have been pushing points ever since. 

Fairfield then bought RCI, and this is when RCI all of a sudden became less friendly to do business with.  It really seemed that they were giving favoritism to points people at the expense of weeks owners, but of course, no way to prove it.  I am not sure how or when Windham came into the equation but they were also sued for skimming weeks from the deposits (probably why it all of a sudden became hard to get a good trade) and re-selling them on the open market, thus was born the current RCI system that is supposed to make everything more "transparent" (the new hot word for this decade).  

My RCI membership is paid up through mid-2013 and I don’t think I will renew because, frankly, it has been pure hell and a lot of money to get what I want through them.  Really, it has gotten to the point where I can buy a week on the open market cheaper than I can pay maintenance fees, RCI membership and trading fees.  

A couple of days ago I ran across a web site called “Endless Vacation Rentals”.  The web site uses the same logo as RCI’s magazine so it apparently is owned by RCI.  I am not sure how they are still skimming weeks to rent out but it seems flakey to me. 

In my opinion I would never convert my week to points, especially, if it is going to cost money and in this case a lot of money$$$.  You can bet that this is just a way for a marketing company to start all over on a sold out resort.  Still don’t know how they can do this as a sold out resort should be controlled solely by the resort associations which of course are the owners of the weeks. 

In the mean time I am watching for another company that is making a good foothold on the timeshare trade market and resume my trades through them.  Hopefully many more owners will do the same and we can say farewell to RCI.


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## sinoffam01 (Mar 12, 2012)

*Weeks to points conversion*

The amount of points can be changed both for a deposit for a week or the amount required to reserve. So, like currency, it can easily devalue over time. In contrast, a week is a week is a week.


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## GHT (Mar 13, 2012)

*Points are a scam*



sinoffam01 said:


> The amount of points can be changed both for a deposit for a week or the amount required to reserve. So, like currency, it can easily devalue over time. In contrast, a week is a week is a week.



My wife and I went to a 90 minute presentation where the timeshare people wanted to explain the points system, and then wanted us to convert to points, but we declined.  They said our deeded week would convert to 10K points.  We were staying at the timeshare during a holiday week, and they told us that to reserve that same holiday week would require 15K points.  I asked what if we didn't have enough points for the week we wanted, and they said we could pay extra cash to make up the difference.  In other words, by staying with a deeded week we could get the holiday week reserved for us, but if we converted to points then we would have to pay extra to get the same week.  They got really belligerent on us and threw the paperwork on the table and yelled 'just sign the f...ing papers', at which point we ran out of the building.  We have vowed to never go to another 90 minute timeshare presentation again.


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## GHT (Mar 13, 2012)

BigRedOne said:


> Let's get to the way points started as I understand it.  Many years ago Fairfield was in the timeshare business and was one of the companies that was, shall we say, less than honest.  Of course that generated a lawsuit against Fairfield which apparently they lost.  Part of the settlement was that they could no longer sell timeshares.  I think they then developed the point system to circumvent the courts and have been pushing points ever since.
> 
> Fairfield then bought RCI, and this is when RCI all of a sudden became less friendly to do business with.  It really seemed that they were giving favoritism to points people at the expense of weeks owners, but of course, no way to prove it.  I am not sure how or when Windham came into the equation but they were also sued for skimming weeks from the deposits (probably why it all of a sudden became hard to get a good trade) and re-selling them on the open market, thus was born the current RCI system that is supposed to make everything more "transparent" (the new hot word for this decade).
> 
> ...



It really looks like the timeshare industry invented 'points' as a way to sell beyond 100% occupancy.  I forgot to reserve my deeded week one year, and when I finally called in late January, I was told there was only 1 week left - week 50 in mid December.  I told them I would call back after discussing it with my wife.  I called back the next day and was told that there were no weeks available any more as the last week was taken by a points owner.


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## ampaholic (Mar 13, 2012)

sinoffam01 said:


> The amount of points can be changed both for a deposit for a week or the amount required to reserve. So, like currency, it can easily devalue over time. In contrast, a week is a week is a week.





GHT said:


> ... They said our deeded week would convert to 10K points.  We were staying at the timeshare during a holiday week, and they told us that to reserve that same holiday week would require 15K points.  I asked what if we didn't have enough points for the week we wanted, and they said we could pay extra cash to make up the difference.  In other words, by staying with a deeded week we could get the holiday week reserved for us, but if we converted to points then we would have to pay extra to get the same week.  ...



I am amazed at people who *don't* actually have points can say they suck.

Sort of like people in Vermont saying Oregon sucks - it's just *different* there.

Points work very well in some circumstances and not so well in others. if you need versatility - points are hard to beat.

If you want to stay at the same resort during the same week every year - don't buy points.

Simple really.


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## Carolinian (Mar 13, 2012)

LannyPC said:


> We faced that situation too about a year and a half ago.  AS we were checking in, the check-in clerk was offering us a "free" gift to attend an "owners' update".  We bit.  The third salesman claimed that this opportunity package was mailed out to all the owners.  Funny, we missed that envelope too.
> 
> Well, now we had this "one-time opportunity" to switch (for a paltry $5400) to this new points system because we apparently missed the mailing.
> 
> It makes you wonder why they needed the high-pressure sales team and the "free" gift to attend this presentation when, apparently, all or most of the other owners got this opportunity in the mail.



Oh, the reason is simple enough.  Without the high pressure crapola, no one would join Points.

I heard a good example in talking with a resort manager in Germany.  That resort, which is member-controlled, insisted that no pressure be put on members to convert to RCI Points and that the only solicitation for points they would allow was by mail, with the resort approving the content before it was mailed.  The result was that only a handful of members switched, and of those that did, she said from calls she had gotten a high percentage of that handful regreted having done so.


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## ampaholic (Mar 13, 2012)

GHT said:


> It really looks like the timeshare industry invented 'points' as a way to sell beyond 100% occupancy.  I forgot to reserve my deeded week one year, and when I finally called in late January, I was told there was only 1 week left - week 50 in mid December.  I told them I would call back after discussing it with my wife.  I called back the next day and was told that there were no weeks available any more as the last week was taken by a points owner.



It doesn't sound like you have a deeded week if you have to call and reserve it.

I have a Deeded Week and I need do nothing but show up and use it - easy peasy.


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## Carolinian (Mar 13, 2012)

GHT said:


> It really looks like the timeshare industry invented 'points' as a way to sell beyond 100% occupancy.  I forgot to reserve my deeded week one year, and when I finally called in late January, I was told there was only 1 week left - week 50 in mid December.  I told them I would call back after discussing it with my wife.  I called back the next day and was told that there were no weeks available any more as the last week was taken by a points owner.



I think you hit the nail on the head as to developers.  They tour people at sold out locations, and when they sell someone, they deed them something else.  The problem is that the buyers want to  go to the resort they toured at and the supply / demand situation makes that virtually impossible.  That is the game that Wyndham played on the OBX, and before them Peppertree / Equivest did the same thing.  I did a tour myself at a Bluegreen resort in Charleston, SC, a place with a supply / demand curve that makes it very hard to get into, and the Bluegreen resort was itself long sold out.  Buyers were deeded their points somewhere else.  This is what makes the whole points concept a shell game.


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## berkshiregal (Mar 13, 2012)

I started getting calls to convert from II to RCI points on my deeded timeshare about 5 years ago.  At the time I was mildly interested and agreed to attend a webinar.  When the price to convert was laid out for, it was over $5000.  I politely informed the sleazy salesman, thanks for but no thanks.  If the resort wants to convert to RCI points, I'm not paying one penny to do so.  At which point the nastiness started and I hung up.  I don't pick up the phone when I see calls come in from Florida.  Let them leave a message.  About 3 months ago, someone finally left a message and stated I had an 'interest at stake that was about to expire.'  I thought, let me put and end to this once and for all.  Of course the person I called back was just scheduling calls.  I told him, if this is a sales pitch, don't bother to have anyone call me.  He couldn't say for sure what it was about.  So, once again, I thought, okay, I'll listen and just say no, AGAIN.  As it turned out, the price was now down to around $1500.  I said, absolutely not.  I'm not putting out one penny to convert.  End of story.  I continue to see calls come in, but I don't answer them.


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## 30269mcla (Mar 13, 2012)

*Weeks To Points*

*RCI Is Trying To Have Everyone Convert To The Point System.  This Is Just Another Way For RCI To Make More Money From Timeshare Owners That Don't Realize The Difference.  They Will Try To Scare The Owner Into Accepting The Point System So You Know That It Is Only For RCI To Make Additional Money.  Weeks That You Go To All The Time Are Your Weeks And They Cannot Be Changed By RCI.  The Only Problem You May Find Is That RCI Is Rating Each Resort By A Point Value So If You Want To Trade Into That Resort Your Timeshare Must Have The Same Number Of Points Or More Otherwise You Will Not Be Able To Trade Into That Resort.  I Would Never Turn In My Weeks For The Point System.  My RCI Contract Expires In 2013 And I Will Not Be Renewing It.  There Are Better Options Out There. *


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## ronparise (Mar 13, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> It doesn't sound like you have a deeded week if you have to call and reserve it.
> 
> I have a Deeded Week and I need do nothing but show up and use it - easy peasy.



I have a deeded week and its part of a float scheme. Owners also have the right to do two weekends with their week and we have a second right to use week (that can also be split

The end result is like a game of musical chairs....there are no full weeks left for some of the owners  and of course you need a full week if you are going to deposit with RCI or II

I also have deeded weeks at Wyndham resorts that have been converted to points. I can have my week if i reserve it well in advance, but at the 10 month mark its put into the points inventory open to anyone

So in some resorts and some systems the deed is just for inventory purposes, nothing more


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## ampaholic (Mar 13, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I have a deeded week and its part of a float scheme. Owners also have the right to do two weekends with their week and we have a second right to use week (that can also be split
> 
> The end result is like a game of musical chairs....there are no full weeks left for some of the owners  and of course you need a full week if you are going to deposit with RCI or II
> 
> ...



My point exactly ... there are several "schemes" that in effect enable the resort or the system to "overclock" the system -- making the condos a first come first served deal -- points are just one of these schemes.

"Floating" ownership is another, club membership is yet another. Except for strait weeks ownership - it's all just a scheme for some entity to make an extra buck off of your vacation while making you stand in yet another line.

But sometimes that is the line you want ...


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## georgianab2 (Mar 13, 2012)

*Points are not as good as your week.*

We had a points week.  We were charged $2000.00 to convert to points.  We found we couldn't get as many reservations from it as we could with our week and we had to pay cleaning fees if we stayed less than a week.  We didn't like it.


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## WinniWoman (Mar 14, 2012)

30269mcla said:


> *RCI Is Trying To Have Everyone Convert To The Point System.  This Is Just Another Way For RCI To Make More Money From Timeshare Owners That Don't Realize The Difference.  They Will Try To Scare The Owner Into Accepting The Point System So You Know That It Is Only For RCI To Make Additional Money.  Weeks That You Go To All The Time Are Your Weeks And They Cannot Be Changed By RCI.  The Only Problem You May Find Is That RCI Is Rating Each Resort By A Point Value So If You Want To Trade Into That Resort Your Timeshare Must Have The Same Number Of Points Or More Otherwise You Will Not Be Able To Trade Into That Resort.  I Would Never Turn In My Weeks For The Point System.  My RCI Contract Expires In 2013 And I Will Not Be Renewing It.  There Are Better Options Out There. *



Same here! I never converted to points. And, I am not renewing with RCI when it expires this year. Who needs all the hassles and mind spinning work associated with trying to exchange through RCI. I am glad I bought where I like to go. And, now that our son is grown, we can use our float weeks - even if they are in an off-season - who cares? After working so hard all year, I am happy just to get away from work and our house and responsibilities and rest and catch up on my reading and cook a decent meal for once! If I get the urge to go somewhere else, I rent someone else's timeshare, which gives me an additional week off. And, in our resort, there's always the option of swapping with another owner for a different week or unit, and I can try Redweek or DAE, too, etc. No hassles/no worries!


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## WinniWoman (Mar 14, 2012)

GHT said:


> My wife and I went to a 90 minute presentation where the timeshare people wanted to explain the points system, and then wanted us to convert to points, but we declined.  They said our deeded week would convert to 10K points.  We were staying at the timeshare during a holiday week, and they told us that to reserve that same holiday week would require 15K points.  I asked what if we didn't have enough points for the week we wanted, and they said we could pay extra cash to make up the difference.  In other words, by staying with a deeded week we could get the holiday week reserved for us, but if we converted to points then we would have to pay extra to get the same week.  They got really belligerent on us and threw the paperwork on the table and yelled 'just sign the f...ing papers', at which point we ran out of the building.  We have vowed to never go to another 90 minute timeshare presentation again.



OMG!


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## Carolinian (Mar 14, 2012)

Points is actually the granddaddy of timesharing.  Points timeshares existed before weeks-based timeshare.

The world's first timeshare developer was Swiss-based Hapimag, which now has over fifty resorts, mostly in Europe but a few in other places.  Members receive shares of Hapimag stock to which a certain number of usage points are attached annually for resort usage, and which can be voted in Hapimag shareholder meetings.  That's the way they started out and the way they still operate.

The weeks concept of timesharing was developed a bit later by a rival French timeshare developer.  The market clearly prefered the weeks concept, and that is what ultimately crossed the Atlantic when timesharing came to the US.

The concept of points clubs which involved weeks at timeshares built by a variety of developers was added later and got its start in South Africa, where it was first instituted by a former tallyman (called a loan shark in the US) named Andrew Davies associated with the notorious Club Leisure Group (do a search for them on TUG).  This concept then spread to Europe and finally the US.

Some developers hit on points ''conversions'' as a way to sell air to their existing members, a product with no real development cost but would bring in money when pushed by their high pressure salesmen.  It also allowed them to keep selling at locations that were sold out but still could attract high sales traffic.

Your Fairfield story is not quite accurate.  Fairfield was selling its own points system, both as a ''conversion'' to existing members and as a new product to new members.  In the early days of RCI Points, back when it was still called GPN, several timeshare developers did not like the interface between their own points system and GPN (RCI) points, so they dumped RCI and switched to II.  Fairfield was one of them.  The only way that RCI got them back was for Cendent, the owner of RCI to buy two of those companies, Fairfield and Worldmark, and then bring them back to RCI.  So Fairfield did not buy RCI.  It was RCI's parent company, then called Cendent, that bought Fairfield and brought them under common ownership.

RCI does indeed give favoitism to Points owners over Weeks (''Points Lite'') owners and it is easy to prove.  Just look at the crossover grids for Points owners to grab better Weeks inventory, for example, or the simple fact that Points members can trade into Weeks but Weeks members cannot trade into Points.

Wyndham came into being when Cendent split itself into several component businesses.  The timeshare related parts were grouped under Wyndham, and included both RCI and Fairfield.

The present ''Points Lite'' system did not really come out of the class action lawsuit, where the plaintiffs lawyers took a million dollar plus ''legal fees'' payoff from RCI to wave a white flag and screw their clients.  Read the so-called settlement, better termed a sell-out, if you think it did.  Points Lite may have been an afterthought from the class action lawsuit, however, since after a time period, there is nothing to stop new plaintiffs from going right back at RCI on that issue.  Points Lite is designed primarily to set up a misleading set of numbers to try to justify RCI's rentals if they ever have to relitigate that matter.

I, myself, have had one of those long and cheap RCI memberships you used to be able to buy in conjunction with SA weeks, but it too will be ending before long, and it will not be renewed.  




BigRedOne said:


> Let's get to the way points started as I understand it.  Many years ago Fairfield was in the timeshare business and was one of the companies that was, shall we say, less than honest.  Of course that generated a lawsuit against Fairfield which apparently they lost.  Part of the settlement was that they could no longer sell timeshares.  I think they then developed the point system to circumvent the courts and have been pushing points ever since.
> 
> Fairfield then bought RCI, and this is when RCI all of a sudden became less friendly to do business with.  It really seemed that they were giving favoritism to points people at the expense of weeks owners, but of course, no way to prove it.  I am not sure how or when Windham came into the equation but they were also sued for skimming weeks from the deposits (probably why it all of a sudden became hard to get a good trade) and re-selling them on the open market, thus was born the current RCI system that is supposed to make everything more "transparent" (the new hot word for this decade).
> 
> ...


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## ampaholic (Mar 14, 2012)

georgianab2 said:


> Points are not as good as your week.





georgianab2 said:


> We had a points week.  We were charged $2000.00 to convert to points.  We found we couldn't get as many reservations from it as we could with our week and we had to pay cleaning fees if we stayed less than a week.  We didn't like it.



To apply such a broad sweeping statement to the subject of timeshares is lazy. It is also not true.

In truth some weeks based timeshares work well (even "better") for their owners than a points based system could while other owners can (and are) doing much "better" with a points based timeshare.

Just one example to blow the doors off of your overreaching statement:

I own a Resorts West MROP timeshare - it is points based and allows me to take *my choice* each year between 3 blue weeks, 2 white weeks or 1 red week. 

There are other MROP owners who don't have the points based system and either have only 1 red per year period or the so called "rotator" (red one year, white the next year and blue the next year) timeshare.

To me the "choice" make mine "better" - since the mf's are all pretty much the same (the all red are 10% - 20% more).

Timeshares are* not* "one size" (even weeks) fits all.


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## northpole (Mar 14, 2012)

I have always thought of "points conversion" as a way to get more money from existing owners.

I can see how it's become difficult to sell timeshares to NEW customers, so developers have found this new way to get more $$$ out of existing owners.  

This is an old technique used in many industries. 

I've heard of Golf clubs offering "premium" memberships to existing owners and giving them priority tee times and special "exclusive" lounges.

Credit card companies offer exclusive (expensive) cards with added benefits to existing "special" customers.

Worldmark developed "TravelShare" for existing owners who bought extra points...

The list goes on.

Of course, these "points conversions" do offer added benefits, but I think that most of the $$$ goes to developers.

I remember reading this interesting thread from 2006 when I was considering buying a timeshare at Eagle Crest ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36335 ).  The thread says that Eagle Crest offered a points conversion to fractional owners as an "added benefit" IF they were interested, and the owner would only be charged the RCI fee of $200 per week if they were interested.  I think some owners converted some of their weeks for the added benefit of using RCIs points system.  

IMO, I think that Eagle Crest did it right.  They could see that some owners might like the benefit of using the new system, but didn't use this opportunity to try to get extra $$$ out of their owners.  In this light, I think that any developer who wants to charge in the 000's is merely trying to make more money from existing owners...


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## ronparise (Mar 14, 2012)

northpole said:


> I have always thought of "points conversion" as a way to get more money from existing owners.
> 
> I can see how it's become difficult to sell timeshares to NEW customers, so developers have found this new way to get more $$$ out of existing owners.
> 
> ...



I own at a property that hired a sales and marketing company and went to rci points with the hope that adding points would make it easier to sell the weeks owned by the POA. They are also offering points conversions to existing owners, thinking that having points with our ownership will make us more likely to pay our fees and not default....I dont think its working


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Timeshares are* not* "one size" (even weeks) fits all.



This is true, i own a fixed week at a resort that has been converting to Wyndham points(yes i know slightly different)...because of my fixed week i am able to get 53 TPU's in RCI, which equates to about 3 weeks of vacation(give or take) the Wyndham equavilent to my week in points is.....183,000 points, no where near equal to 53 TPU, i'd be lucky to get one good week on RCI or even within Wyndham for that


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## GHT (Mar 16, 2012)

*Points allow the TS industry to sell beyond 100% occupancy*



ampaholic said:


> It doesn't sound like you have a deeded week if you have to call and reserve it.
> 
> I have a Deeded Week and I need do nothing but show up and use it - easy peasy.



I do have a deeded week.  The timeshare industry calls it a floating red week, which at my resort means a week in the range of January 1st to April 15th, or November 1st to December 31st.  I can not just show up and use a week, but rather must first call and reserve which floating red week I want to use.  

My complaint with the points system is because I forgot one year to call in for a reservation, it was mid January when I tried, and only week 50 was left.  A day later it went to a points person, and I lost the week.  The points system has lowered the value of deeded weeks by allowing the timeshare companies to sell beyond 100% occupancy.


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## Carolinian (Mar 16, 2012)

GHT said:


> I do have a deeded week.  The timeshare industry calls it a floating red week, which at my resort means a week in the range of January 1st to April 15th, or November 1st to December 31st.  I can not just show up and use a week, but rather must first call and reserve which floating red week I want to use.
> 
> My complaint with the points system is because I forgot one year to call in for a reservation, it was mid January when I tried, and only week 50 was left.  A day later it went to a points person, and I lost the week.  The points system has lowered the value of deeded weeks by allowing the timeshare companies to sell beyond 100% occupancy.



BINGO!  You have just set out the very reason that points appeals to developers.  It is not for members advantage, it is for their own.  Add in the fact that they can keep selling from sold-out resorts without replenishing the inventory there, just deed the points somewhere else and tell customers than ''points are points''.  Of course that will ultimately lead to a lot more people wanting to go to that soldout resort where they have kept seling than could possibly be accomodated there.


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## ampaholic (Mar 16, 2012)

GHT said:


> I do have a deeded week.  The timeshare industry calls it a floating red week, which at my resort means a week in the range of January 1st to April 15th, or November 1st to December 31st.  I can not just show up and use a week, but rather must first call and reserve which floating red week I want to use.



I think you have a "deeded as" floating unit and I imagine you agreed to this set up when you purchased your interval - can't really get behind why you bought it if it fails to work for you.



GHT said:


> My complaint with the points system is because I forgot one year to call in for a reservation, it was mid January when I tried, and only week 50 was left.  A day later it went to a points person, and I lost the week.  The points system has lowered the value of deeded weeks by allowing the timeshare companies to sell beyond 100% occupancy.



I also can't really get behind why you think it's the points system's fault a points person reserved that week after you passed on it.

Timeshares have never enjoyed beyond 100% occupancy - I'm pretty sure 100% of intervals existing is the most anyone could occupy - I sure wouldn't want to "hot bunk" with another family to achieve 101%. 

In the bad old days many intervals went empty because the owners plans didn't allow them to use the exact week they owned - then RCI was created and occupancy rates went up since those owners could "space bank" their weeks and use them somewhere else.

Well then RCI and others caught on that there were more weeks being deposited than were being occupied so they started renting them out and then started points plans and then TPU plans to increase occupancy and as a result increase fees collected for arranging that 98% or 78% or 87% - whatever percent it *really* is.

Still we haven't exceeded 100% occupancy - there was still only *one family* occupying that interval you passed up - it just wasn't yours.

Perception is not always reality.


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## ampaholic (Mar 16, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> BINGO!  You have just set out the very reason that points appeals to developers.  It is not for members advantage, it is for their own.  Add in the fact that they can keep selling from sold-out resorts without replenishing the inventory there, just deed the points somewhere else and tell customers than ''points are points''.  Of course that will ultimately lead to a lot more people wanting to go to that soldout resort where they have kept seling than could possibly be accomodated there.



What an odd argument - by your reasoning Ferrari is bad because more people want a Ferrari than could possibly be accommodated by the factory - driving the price up.

I think what point you and GHT are really trying to drive home is that when you buy a *week* - you buy a *week* but when you buy a points account you are really just buying the right to stand in line.


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## Carolinian (Mar 16, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> What an odd argument - by your reasoning Ferrari is bad because more people want a Ferrari than could possibly be accommodated by the factory - driving the price up.
> 
> I think what point you and GHT are really trying to drive home is that when you buy a *week* - you buy a *week* but when you buy a points account you are really just buying the right to stand in line.



Well, let me give you a specific example that I am familiar with.  Peppertree / Equivest had largely sold out Outer Banks Beach Club I and II in a weeks format.  They had a little inventory left, mostly in off season.  They created a points club and kept selling from that location, touring people at OBBC I and II, telling them during the tour how many points it would take to get a good summer week at that resort.  The points for buyers were mostly deeded to other Peppertree / Equivest resorts.  

What happened was that many buyers wanted to come to OBBC in the summer but there was no room at the inn, so they were turned away in droves.  That made for some very angry owners but rightfully felt they had been flimflamed.  Every resort on the OBX knew well about this, because many of those Peppertree / Equivest points owners had gotten pumped up on using timeshare and wanted to come to the OBX, so they were calling other resorts for rentals.  There were quite a few of those calls, and they often expressed that they had been scammed by Peppertree / Equivest.

Indeed the experience with Peppertree / Equivest's point fiasco is why the member-controlled resorts on the OBX have been very allergic to points systems generally such as RCI Points.


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## ronparise (Mar 16, 2012)

GHT said:


> I do have a deeded week.  The timeshare industry calls it a floating red week, which at my resort means a week in the range of January 1st to April 15th, or November 1st to December 31st.  I can not just show up and use a week, but rather must first call and reserve which floating red week I want to use.
> 
> My complaint with the points system is because I forgot one year to call in for a reservation, it was mid January when I tried, and only week 50 was left.  A day later it went to a points person, and I lost the week.  The points system has lowered the value of deeded weeks by allowing the timeshare companies to sell beyond 100% occupancy.



I also own deeded floating red weeks (at a different resort) And there is a similar problem here with no availability at the end of the year but its not the fault of points...

This resort has several types of ownership RCI points, Wyndham points, floating weeks and Worldmark Credits...each owner class has their own pool of inventory and you cant cross the lines and use one ownership to reserve in another pool.

So you might ask...why if I own a deeded float week, is it possible for me to get shut out, and there be nothing available to me toward the end of the year?  Ill use a simple example: Lets assume a resort with just 10 units. And it is completely sold out to 520 owners..all weeks are red and all deeds are floating.  There is one week available for each of the 520 owners...But lets further assume that all of the owners did like you last year and no one called for a reservation in the first two months of the year...ie there were vacant units in Jan and Feb..(in my extreme example all 10 rooms were vacant for Jan and Feb)  This means that with 10 months(44 weeks) to go in the year,  that there are only 440 available reservations for 520 owners. Someone is going to get shut out

So its quite possible even probable, that in a floating weeks ownership model, that more than one of us will get shut out. Its unfortunate, but its the way it was designed...it has nothing to do with the fact that there are points owners in the same building A computer technician would say its a feature, not a bug.

If you dont like it, you can sell your unit to someone like me that pays their fees a year in advance so they can cherry pick the best weeks, (I used all my weeks in the first week of the year this year...I wont be shut out) or you can convert to points. With points you may not get a room at your home resort, but you will get something within the RCI system. If I was an RCI points salesman I would be looking for someone just like you..Because your floating week is not working for you, you would be an ideal candidate for conversion

The only guarantee in the timeshare world is a deeded fixed week...and we dont own one of those. Points systems work, a floating weeks system works. But if they dont work for you buy something else..Dont blame the system if you arent able to use it to your advantage


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## ampaholic (Mar 16, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> Well, let me give you a specific example that I am familiar with.  Peppertree / Equivest had largely sold out Outer Banks Beach Club I and II in a weeks format.  They had a little inventory left, mostly in off season.  They created a points club and kept selling from that location, touring people at OBBC I and II, telling them during the tour how many points it would take to get a good summer week at that resort.  The points for buyers were mostly deeded to other Peppertree / Equivest resorts.
> 
> What happened was that many buyers wanted to come to OBBC in the summer but there was no room at the inn, so they were turned away in droves.  That made for some very angry owners but rightfully felt they had been flimflamed.  Every resort on the OBX knew well about this, because many of those Peppertree / Equivest points owners had gotten pumped up on using timeshare and wanted to come to the OBX, so they were calling other resorts for rentals.  There were quite a few of those calls, and they often expressed that they had been scammed by Peppertree / Equivest.
> 
> Indeed the experience with Peppertree / Equivest's point fiasco is why the member-controlled resorts on the OBX have been very allergic to points systems generally such as RCI Points.



To continue the analogy with Ferrari: You are saying one dealer took deposits on more Ferrari's than they could get - thus committing fraud.

I'll grant to you that that dealer (Peppertree/Equvest) should be in Federal Prison but it is a *huge* stretch and disingenuous to then say RCI Points should *also* be in Federal Prison because of what Peppertree/Equvest did. 

As far as I know RCI Points does not sell more Ferrari's (points) than they can get from the factory (timeshare owners converting their week to points) - do you have secret information from a Federal indictment that says different?

And FYI there is Federal Law covering such activity.


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## Carolinian (Mar 16, 2012)

Prison?  I don't know that the sales weasels for Peppertree / Equivest points commited much more fraud than most timeshare sales weasels, and I suspect that they would argue that they clearly pointed out that the actual points sold were deeded in (if memory serves) Wisconsin rather than the OBX.  The implication that a buyer could actually use those points to get a summer week at OBBC is not a whole lot different than the typical sales weasel's spiel that you can trade for anything in the RCI (or II) catalogue.

The problem is that the ''points are points'' argument allows a developer to keep selling at a sold out location where replacement inventory would be expensive, like Peppertree in Kill Devil Hills or Bluegreen in Charleston, deed the buyers something at a cheaper to build at location, and thus distort the system, creating an unsustainable demand for the prime locations.  It builds up faster at a resort like OBBC where there was not much inventory left for the points system.  In contrast, with a weeks-based system, when a developer sells out a resort, the only way to keep selling is to build more inventory at that location.  That keeps the system much better balanced.

RCI Points are indeed different in that RCI is not running sales floors and making the promises.  RCI Points does bring its own set of problems to timesharing, mostly based on the unfair relationship that RCI concocted for it with the Weeks system, but that is a whole different issue.  I won't go there as that would be OT.




ampaholic said:


> To continue the analogy with Ferrari: You are saying one dealer took deposits on more Ferrari's than they could get - thus committing fraud.
> 
> I'll grant to you that that dealer (Peppertree/Equvest) should be in Federal Prison but it is a *huge* stretch and disingenuous to then say RCI Points should *also* be in Federal Prison because of what Peppertree/Equvest did.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Mar 16, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I own at a property that hired a sales and marketing company and went to rci points with the hope that adding points would make it easier to sell the weeks owned by the POA. They are also offering points conversions to existing owners, thinking that having points with our ownership will make us more likely to pay our fees and not default....I dont think its working



I would suspect that most of your HOA inventory are off season weeks  (even in ''all red'' locations, there is an off season) and adding points to them creates a small points package, something that is not particularly useful.  It was Sunterra's small points package, rather than any other part of their points product, that instigated the creation of the Scottish Action Group Against Sunterra and their very public push back, with the (now down) Sunterrified website, and the ''Scambulance'', the repainted ambulance that they used as a prop when they picketed Sunterra sales sites. ( After DRI bought Sunterra, they paid off the Scots and they disbanded.)


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## rrlongwell (Mar 16, 2012)

GHT said:


> I do have a deeded week.  ... My complaint with the points system is because I forgot one year to call in for a reservation, it was mid January when I tried, and only week 50 was left.  A day later it went to a points person, and I lost the week.  The points system has lowered the value of deeded weeks by allowing the timeshare companies to sell beyond 100% occupancy.



I am seeing an increasing number of reports that deeded weeks floating or otherwise are being taken for use by other enities for their own purposes if they control access to the units.  The deeded owners have to pay the maintance fees, the other enities get the right of usage.  I would expect this model to contrinue to increase in use as the concept of Asset Light inventory continues to spread through the industry.


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## ronparise (Mar 16, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> I would suspect that most of your HOA inventory are off season weeks  (even in ''all red'' locations, there is an off season) and adding points to them creates a small points package, something that is not particularly useful.  It was Sunterra's small points package, rather than any other part of their points product, that instigated the creation of the Scottish Action Group Against Sunterra and their very public push back, with the (now down) Sunterrified website, and the ''Scambulance'', the repainted ambulance that they used as a prop when they picketed Sunterra sales sites. ( After DRI bought Sunterra, they paid off the Scots and they disbanded.)



Your assumption is not correct...My ownership is in New Orleans, 7 of my weeks are floating weeks that float across the entire year (2 of my weeks are Mardi gras event weeks... They are truly all red, except the Mardi Gras weeks which are a little redder....

I would agree that rci points may assign different point values depending on their formula, but thats immaterial to my point......The fact is that assigning points isnt why some floating weeks owners get shut out with no availability toward the end of the year...The problem is that weeks early in the year sit vacant...There are other contributing factors in New New Orleans (split weeks and right to use weeks) but the big reason is too many owners competing for the same weeks at the end of the year


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## northpole (Mar 16, 2012)

There are good and bad aspects of point systems.

The good: They are very flexible, and IF a person is good at planning ahead (and solving complex mind puzzles) - then a person can get a lot out of point systems.

The bad: In the case of Worldmark (and I guess many other point systems) it takes away incentives for developers to add nice resorts in the system.  A developer can have a few "flagship" resorts with fancy sales offices.  However, in order to "create" points to sell, they can build resorts in the middle-of-nowhere (which is much cheaper) and sell the points created at the "flagship" resorts.

With Worldmark we saw Wyndham (and Trendwest) build resorts in far-off places that nobody wants to go to thus "creating" millions of points that they could then sell at their sales offices in SoCal, Oregon Coast and Vegas.  

IF they did not run a points-based timeshare system, they would have never been able to sell those timeshare resorts in the "middle-of-nowhere". They would have had to look for good locations in popular places in order to make sales!

I like the Hilton type model whereby they have nice resorts, but each unit they sell has a "point value" if the owner wants to stay at a different resort.  This system is still flexible, but they can't build a resort in timbuktu and expect to sell it. 

I, personally, don't see the benefit to convert to a points system for thousands of dollars!  I see that as being a scam to get more $$$ by the developer!


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## Carolinian (Mar 16, 2012)

I was addressing your HOA's resales, not personal weeks you own.  One of the problems of RCI Points values at floating week resorts is that they give an average number, which will never be as good as the best weeks or anywhere close, and so that makes it not the most advantageous place to own points.  All being red is a different thing that high and low season and all ''red all year'' locations DO have an off season.

You jump to other issues that I was not addressing.



ronparise said:


> Your assumption is not correct...My ownership is in New Orleans, 7 of my weeks are floating weeks that float across the entire year (2 of my weeks are Mardi gras event weeks... They are truly all red, except the Mardi Gras weeks which are a little redder....
> 
> I would agree that rci points may assign different point values depending on their formula, but thats immaterial to my point......The fact is that assigning points isnt why some floating weeks owners get shut out with no availability toward the end of the year...The problem is that weeks early in the year sit vacant...There are other contributing factors in New New Orleans (split weeks and right to use weeks) but the big reason is too many owners competing for the same weeks at the end of the year


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## ampaholic (Mar 16, 2012)

northpole said:


> There are good and bad aspects of point systems.
> 
> The good: They are very flexible, and IF a person is good at planning ahead (and solving complex mind puzzles) - then a person can get a lot out of point systems.
> 
> ...



I find this a very insightful post - at least with regards to Worldmark.

RCI Points are spread over the globe so really don't suffer from the "Timbuktu" phenomenon - although they do suffer from their own "quirks".

I would advocate for adding this disclaimer to all points packages:

"Caution - there are not enough red weeks for everyone - some points purchasers will be disappointed".


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## Larry M (Mar 17, 2012)

BigRedOne said:


> In my opinion I would never convert my week to points, especially, if it is going to cost money and in this case a lot of money$$$.  You can bet that this is just a way for a marketing company to start all over on a sold out resort.  Still don’t know how they can do this as a sold out resort should be controlled solely by the resort associations which of course are the owners of the weeks.



I don't think it's a way to start all over on a sold-out resort. It's a way to close down an aged resort which is worn-out or in a no-longer-popular area. If there are no fixed-week owners, they can just stop taking reservations, and when the existing reservations are served, they can sell or rebuild the property. If there is even *one* fixed week owner they do not have this freedom of action.

It's also a way to raise prices.  Let's say you have a fixed week and pay annual maintenance fees.  Owners watch them and would protest if they suddenly jumped by an unduly amount. But if you exchange your fixed week for points, they can raise them (at your resort or others) by any amount the traffic will bear. You are now competing in an auction every year and some of your competitors are as naive as those who would buy timeshares from the developer.

Larry
Fixed weeks at Ocean Ridge and Mountain Ridge--You can have the Mountain Ridge unit if you want it.)


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