# Cancel & Rebook - no longer possible?



## JohnWC (Jun 12, 2017)

New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink. 
Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?


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## buckor (Jun 12, 2017)

JohnWC said:


> New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink.
> Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
> I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
> The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
> Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?


I would not cancel and upgrade right now...everyone Who has tried has said the cancelled reservation did not come back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## buckor (Jun 12, 2017)

Deleted. Double post.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 12, 2017)

JohnWC ... start reading prior posts here on TUG in the Wyndham thread. We are a band of owners who realized long ago ... the more info and discussions, the better we can and have used our Wyndham ownerships.

Many of us own multiple millions of Wyndham points .. some have multiple Member Numbers (ownerships). And we truly know I may know A and someone else adds in the C and then, someone else links in the B part.


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## chapjim (Jun 12, 2017)

People are having a hard enough time logging in, getting accounts fixed, searching, making reservations, cancelling reservations, determining how many points are available -- really simple stuff but beyond the capability of this system to handle on a consistent basis.

Cancel-rebook may never be a useful procedure under this new system but until the system can do the simple things consistently, there is no chance of performing more complex procedures.

Members are still trying to figure out what the business rules are by observing how things happen, kind of a backwards way of doing things but explanations from Wyndham reps have been all over the place.  We really don't know yet how things work.


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 12, 2017)

This is the new normal.  Gone are the reliable cancel and rebook scenarios.  Find another strategy for booking or pay full points and request that booking be upgraded if avail.  Cancel is a black hole right now .


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## BellaWyn (Jun 12, 2017)

JohnWC:

First of all, welcome to TUG!!    We are really glad you found us!

As others have said before, until Wyndham can get the new "enhanced" site running CONSISTENTLY (i.e. populating inventory correctly, getting owner points corrected, fixing log-in inconsistencies, correcting contract information in owner accounts -- list goes on and on -- need to read some of this thread to get a perspective) we really won't know what is working the way it is intended.

As to your original questions on the cancel / rebook to get the reduction on the points on any given reservation -- it no longer exists in the way you were told it was supposed to function.  Owners here are working to test the system to better understand it but Wyndham literally has not yet finished coding the site.  They are coding on the fly in a live system.  We here in TUG kinda think that's an insane approach.  *Feel free to chime in a share your take on the situation being a new owner and a new TUGGER!*

Cheers!


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## wanderround (Jun 12, 2017)

JohnWC said:


> New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink.
> Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
> I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
> The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
> Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?



In theory it should be possible to to cancel/rebook the smallest unit at a resort but it sounds like they usually disappear. Being platinum you have the best chance for a 1/2 point reservation and upgrade at the 60 day mark.


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## ecwinch (Jun 13, 2017)

Yes, they seem to have introduced some logic to ensure that cancellations within the 60 day window do not come back into inventory soon after they are cancelled. A rather simple solution if you think about it.


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## cayman01 (Jun 13, 2017)

I would think the Only safe way to cancel and rebook is if the inventory of both halves of the deal are available. So, really it is just a new reservation and upgrade, then cancel your old one. Otherwise, you don't see it come back into inventory .


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## wjappraise (Jun 13, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I would think the Only safe way to cancel and rebook is if the inventory of both halves of the deal are available. So, really it is just a new reservation and upgrade, then cancel your old one. Otherwise, you don't see it come back into inventory .



That's just "book."   Not "cancel and rebook". 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 13, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Yes, they seem to have introduced some logic to ensure that cancellations within the 60 day window do not come back into inventory soon after they are cancelled. A rather simple solution if you think about it.


Yes, but they didn't need a new system to do that. I believe they've always had the ability to control when reservations come back. Maybe not random (but how hard could that be). Perhaps the new system allows them to grab them back easier for Extra Holidays?

One thing I never understood, in the past, was the overly helpfulness of VC's to help you with a cancel/rebook.  If Wyndham really wanted to get rid of it, why were they so helpful - actually encouraging. Towards the end (of the old system) I was suspicious some were intentionally losing reservations. I would cancel and could see it in the system, and they couldn't. But usually I felt they were quite proud of their success rate, seems like we saw more incompetencies in last few months.

Can only guess that from a sales angle they wanted that helpfulness. Will be real interesting to see what kind of spin sales can put on this, and how the value of the VIP program can be touted (salvaged). Resales looking better all the time!


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## Wyndhamgirl (Jun 13, 2017)

I've attempted to cancel/rebook twice.  Both attempts were the smallest unit at the resort.  One was Emerald Grande the other was great Smokey Mountain.  Sadly the reservations fell into a black hole never to return.  The Wyndham Representative said it is a live system and the reservation should return?  I continued to check for hours but they never came back?  I love the ability to cancel/rebook!  Hopefully one day this will be possible?  It's almost as if the new system releases inventory at random?  If anyone could figure this out please share so we can all be helped


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Yes, but they didn't need a new system to do that. I believe they've always had the ability to control when reservations come back. Maybe not random (but how hard could that be). Perhaps the new system allows them to grab them back easier for Extra Holidays?
> 
> One thing I never understood, in the past, was the overly helpfulness of VC's to help you with a cancel/rebook.  If Wyndham really wanted to get rid of it, why were they so helpful - actually encouraging. Towards the end (of the old system) I was suspicious some were intentionally losing reservations. I would cancel and could see it in the system, and they couldn't. But usually I felt they were quite proud of their success rate, seems like we saw more incompetencies in last few months.
> 
> Can only guess that from a sales angle they wanted that helpfulness. Will be real interesting to see what kind of spin sales can put on this, and how the value of the VIP program can be touted (salvaged). Resales looking better all the time!




Another possible explanation is that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing

The lawyers and certain executives that cared about a "fair" system were concerned about cancel and rebook, but they never talked to the reservations clerks and owner care  people about it

And the owner care and reservations staff was trained to bend over backwards to help owners in any way they could (staying within the rules, of course.) they didn't see the big picture and the harm cancel and rebook brought to the membership as a whole. Not only didn't they see the problem they didn't look for problems.   All they cared about is that they handled an owners request and ended the call by making another owner happy about their ownership

i still believe that no one at Wyndham knew that their various departments were working at cross purposes until they talked to the suspendees late last year


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## Nomad34 (Jun 13, 2017)

Until the new site was started I booked the years reservations and was able to rebook so I feel good. Hearing the problems now I will not cancel the rest of my reservations and hope only for upgrades to come available at 30 days out for Silver VIP. I still am unsure of what has happened to the Trust owners who bought with the understanding of deed ownership with points.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:
			
		

> The lawyers and certain executives that cared about a "fair" system were concerned about cancel and rebook, but they never talked to the reservations clerks and owner care people about it


In my my experience working in large corporate entities, at both executive and mid-management levels, when executives get "concerned" about something the approach is not to sit on their hands musing about fairness. Good executives communicate those concerns down the ladder in order to effect change. 

We have had a lot of discussion in this forum about SILO and right /left hand ignorances of departmental operational procedures.  It seems to be the go-to scapegoat excuse to justify the ineptitudes and conflicting posturing between departments.  

Let's not forget that Wyndham is HUGELY SUCCESSFUL WORLDWIDE corporation.  You don't get to that level of success, with ever growing stock prices, because the executives are unaware of what is happening or are passive in their internal communications.

Your statement above also infers that some executives did NOT care about fairness.  Only "certain executives" which one could conclude that not all executives actually are concerned about happy owners.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Another possible explanation is that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing
> 
> The lawyers and certain executives that cared about a "fair" system were concerned about cancel and rebook, but they never talked to the reservations clerks and owner care  people about it
> 
> ...


I just got off the phone with Wyndham  they have been planning this for years.  cancel re-book for popular places is gone.  Those who were Platinum and Gold members you just got shafted by design.  They knew exactly what they were doing and kept it a secret.  Now they will want to sell you more point so you can still enjoy the vacations you had at a cheaper price.    The system is still not "fair" as all of were told when we bought we could save points by book and re-book.  Wyndham even went out of their way to make us happy and use the system, why? so we would be hooked.  Law suit?


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> In my my experience working in large corporate entities, at both executive and mid-management levels, when executives get "concerned" about something the approach is not to sit on their hands musing about fairness. Good executives communicate those concerns down the ladder in order to effect change.
> 
> We have had a lot of discussion in this forum about SILO and right /left hand ignorances of departmental operational procedures.  It seems to be the go-to scapegoat excuse to justify the ineptitudes and conflicting posturing between departments.
> 
> ...



Ill bow to your experience; no doubt its more than mine with large corporations. And Ill modify my comments to say, no one cared about fairness, or better stated, concern for fairness was not anyones responsibility.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> That's just "book."   Not "cancel and rebook".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is now exactly that, a reservation with hope of an upgrade. Unless you are going to a less popular or out of season place that has availability at the time of booking for upgrades.  Wyndham just stuck it to themselves, along with Gold and Platinum members.  Resale point are nice except for the maintenance fees, bet they go up next.  I want to hear the sales pitches now.  Stand up for yourselves attend sales pitches and tell how we just got the shaft to everyone listening.  Make your feeling known.   They did away with you RCI upgrades 4-5 years ago now book re-book for less points is gone  PIC weeks are next?  Limited pic weeks 5-6 years ago.  Is this a beach of contract?


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

wanderround said:


> In theory it should be possible to to cancel/rebook the smallest unit at a resort but it sounds like they usually disappear. Being platinum you have the best chance for a 1/2 point reservation and upgrade at the 60 day mark.


If you cancel in the 60 day window the unit automatically goes into the upgrade pool first.  You will not see it again.  The earlier you put in for an up-grade the better odds of getting it.  I just tried yesterday on making a reservation for less points as there was availability.  Even though an up grade was available I did not do so.  I went back to the system today and checked up grade requested.  It went in the system.  I did not get an up grade even though there were 2 bedrooms available so there is a loophole or a glitch in their system still.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> It is now exactly that, a reservation with hope of an upgrade. Unless you are going to a less popular or out of season place that has availability at the time of booking for upgrades.  Wyndham just stuck it to themselves, along with Gold and Platinum members.  Resale point are nice except for the maintenance fees, bet they go up next.  I want to hear the sales pitches now.  Stand up for yourselves attend sales pitches and tell how we just got the shaft to everyone listening.  Make your feeling known.   They did away with you RCI upgrades 4-5 years ago now book re-book for less points is gone  PIC weeks are next?  Limited pic weeks 5-6 years ago.  Is this a beach of contract?


Technically no breach --  asked and answered in previous threads.  There is no "guarantee" with a VIP ownership.  What sales TELLS you vs what is actually in the contract are two different things.  Wyndham is masterful at CYA when it comes to contractual agreements.

Do not disagree with you however related to the "planning for years part" of the equation.  And yes, VIP owners are being hit pretty hard but so are the resale owners.  Navigating the new website is no walk in the park for them either and there are plenty that are still struggling with just getting accurate account information to populate correctly in their online accounts.  None of this is unique to the VIP owner.

Causal analysis.  It's a thing.  Large corporations use these formulations all the time.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> *......concern for fairness was not anyone's responsibility.*


Do you actually believe that or is this just snark?


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

JohnWC said:


> New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink.
> Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
> I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
> The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
> Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?


You cancelled it goes to a pool for upgrades if none are demanding the unit then it goes back into reservation system.  Probably the next day still testing the system to see.  Platinum no more book re-book for less.  Time to voice your concerns and how the system and promises are not being kept.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Ill bow to your experience; no doubt its more than mine with large corporations. And Ill modify my comments to say, no one cared about fairness, or better stated, concern for fairness was not anyones responsibility.


Yes Wyndham Worldwide just had a new CEO from Hilton?  but this roll out was before he got there.  It has been planned and owners were lied to to sell more points.  Everyone will now have to book at regular point unless going to certain resorts 60 , 45 or 30 days out and availability is there  OR put in for an upgrade and hope? but at you max out for reduced points check again and book.  Up grades will be rare.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> In my my experience working in large corporate entities, at both executive and mid-management levels, when executives get "concerned" about something the approach is not to sit on their hands musing about fairness. Good executives communicate those concerns down the ladder in order to effect change.
> 
> We have had a lot of discussion in this forum about SILO and right /left hand ignorances of departmental operational procedures.  It seems to be the go-to scapegoat excuse to justify the ineptitudes and conflicting posturing between departments.
> 
> ...


Wyndham's obligation is to grow stock for investors.  THAT is all.  Happy campers (timeshare owners) are a side or 2nd obligation.  first to grow stock you need to sell a product successfully.  They have done that.   I don't know about now?  What about Margarettaville?  Wonder how that is going?  Wyndham was starting to build again I wonder how sales will be if owners start attending again and saying they got shafted.  Look to stock to drop.  I just sold my shares.


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> Wyndham's obligation is to grow stock for investors.  THAT is all.  Happy campers (timeshare owners) are a side or 2nd obligation.  first to grow stock you need to sell a product successfully.  They have done that.   I don't know about now?  What about Margarettaville?  Wonder how that is going?  Wyndham was starting to build again I wonder how sales will be if owners start attending again and saying they got shafted.  Look to stock to drop.  I just sold my shares.



From 65 to 100 in the last year. You had a good run. It was probably time to sell anyway

As you say this mess with the website and the return of VIP benefits to design may cause a dip in sales but I doubt that it will be permanent. There's more to Wyndham than timeshares. And if the folks here are right their rental division ought to pick up the slack

The real test will be when they spin off the timeshare division. If the combined valuation of the two companies isn't more than Wyndham worldwide is today, I'd be surprised


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

The spin off will come it is just going to be when.  As to the value it depends on the economy at the time.  I think resale just got a boost.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> From 65 to 100 in the last year. You had a good run. It was probably time to sell anyway
> 
> As you say this mess with the website and the return of VIP benefits to design may cause a dip in sales but I doubt that it will be permanent. *There's more to Wyndham than timeshares. And if the folks here are right their rental division ought to pick up the slack*
> The real test will be when they spin off the timeshare division. If the combined valuation of the two companies isn't more than Wyndham worldwide is today, I'd be surprised


Which improves profitability significantly on a faster scale.

Engineered chaos, dominos falling exactly to plan.  Smoke & mirrors people.  Connect the dots!  They may seem random but a pattern exists.


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## spackler (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> Platinum no more book re-book for less.  Time to voice your concerns and how the system and promises are not being kept.



There were never any contractual promises of discounts, only verbal ones...which don't mean squat.


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## Jan M. (Jun 13, 2017)

Anything except your actual deed that Wyndham puts in writing is subject to change.


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## cayman01 (Jun 13, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> That's just "book."   Not "cancel and rebook".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Call it a lack of morning coffee. What I was trying to say is check to see if there is existing inventory for the room you want to cancel. If there is  then book it first before you cancel the old one. If there isn't any inventory do NOT take the chance because, as many have stated  previously, the room doesn't  come back in any kind of timely manner..


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 13, 2017)

Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.

If you are selling your HOUSE, why does your sales broker want YOU gone with no contact with the buyer til the settlement table?

No binding promises or statement of condition .... the realtor's job is to manage the buyer, put the best spin on the product and to keep the price as high as possible.


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## Jan M. (Jun 13, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.



Ahhh...that explains a great deal!


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## raygo123 (Jun 13, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.
> 
> If you are selling your HOUSE, why does your sales broker want YOU gone with no contact with the buyer til the settlement table?
> 
> No binding promises or statement of condition .... the realtor's job is to manage the buyer, put the best spin on the product and to keep the price as high as possible.


May I ask to what this is in relation?  Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

raygo123 said:


> May I ask to what this is in relation?  Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


These days most ALL states require that, even with TS sales, if it's a contract for REAL property, it has to be sold by a licensed realtor.   Note that I said MOST ALL, not all states because it still will fall to the governing state where the property resides.  

How that works with a CWA points contract....  no idea.   The CWA gurus will need to weigh in.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 13, 2017)

raygo123 said:


> May I ask to what this is in relation?  Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.



Robert, I know ...because a very good friend whose job was that of a Hang Tag girl want to Sell timeshares at the resort and make the BIG MONEY. She took the Florida State Real Estate Licensing course, passed the FL state exam and THEN got into sales to sell timeshare points (at the Wyndham Royal Vista Resort ... top floor). No State License, NO SELLING TIMESHARES for Wyndham. Theirreal estate broker employs them and the broker's contract is to SELL WYndham's deeded timeshare product. She ONLY got commission checks as payment for services if she SOLD something or participated in a sales transaction.

Now, your statement MIGHT be partial TRUE ... if Club Wyndham Access is only a club ... with a certificate and not a real estate deed. But I would BET, that a license state broker has insurance (facts, omission and misrepresentation insurance) and if the agent is licensed and receives a commission) ... WHY would Wyndham want o reinvent the wheel AND remove that 'wall of liability separation' between themselves and their loyal real estate PROFESSIONALs?

Dyed bad EGGS will stink up the Easter basket as quickly as eggs just hard boiled if left for a month out in the HOT SUN.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

spackler said:


> There were never any contractual promises of discounts, only verbal ones...which don't mean squat.


You are exactly correct it is meaningless UNLESS we open our mouths and join in voice about the lies and lack of keeping what they say to us for a sale. Owners will need to bring these up at owners up dates or a sales pitch to new buyers.  Opps in the new material is a part about Wyndham owners can be in poor standing for many different reason(including negative actions) NOT those words but it does state they can payback.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Which improves profitability significantly on a faster scale.
> 
> Engineered chaos, dominos falling exactly to plan.  Smoke & mirrors people.  Connect the dots!  They may seem random but a pattern exists.


When can the rental division get a rental?  Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date.   I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others.  How do they get the inventory?  Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> When can the rental division get a rental?  Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date.   I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others.  How do they get the inventory?  Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?


Dude!  They CONTROL the inventory system.  They are first in line for EVERYTHING.  Overthinking this is just going to explode your brain.  They take what they need/want, when they want it and do with it whatever best suits their purpose.

Not new information.  Now ask if we can do anything about it.

Highly likely you will get answers back that say "NO!"

Do we like it, no.  Can we do anything about it.  NO.


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## Andrew Robertson (Jun 13, 2017)

Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed?  second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?


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## raygo123 (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed?  second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
> so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?


No, it really depends on who controls the HOA.  It is not just access.  It I'd all deeds changed to points.  The points "club" sits on top of the deeds, if Wyndham controls board,they control resort.  Now, everyone who changed to points, felt it I'd a good idea.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## CandyLancaster (Jun 13, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Yes, but they didn't need a new system to do that. I believe they've always had the ability to control when reservations come back. Maybe not random (but how hard could that be). Perhaps the new system allows them to grab them back easier for Extra Holidays?
> 
> One thing I never understood, in the past, was the overly helpfulness of VC's to help you with a cancel/rebook.  If Wyndham really wanted to get rid of it, why were they so helpful - actually encouraging. Towards the end (of the old system) I was suspicious some were intentionally losing reservations. I would cancel and could see it in the system, and they couldn't. But usually I felt they were quite proud of their success rate, seems like we saw more incompetencies in last few months.
> 
> Can only guess that from a sales angle they wanted that helpfulness. Will be real interesting to see what kind of spin sales can put on this, and how the value of the VIP program can be touted (salvaged). Resales looking better all the time!


I agree with everything you stated but my dealings with Cancel/Rebook was that the VCs always seemed to be trying to talk me out of you.  I only lost one in about 15 years that I used Cancel/Rebook.  I always felt that the sales people had pushed that to get us to buy up to Platinum but then the phone people were trying to do the opposite.  It was very strange.  It seemed to me if they could talk us out of using our option then Wyndham would benefit.  That's just how I felt.


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## ecwinch (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> They did away with you RCI upgrades 4-5 years ago now book re-book for less points is gone  PIC weeks are next?  Limited pic weeks 5-6 years ago.  Is this a beach of contract?



This was the angle a number of lawsuits pursued after the last round of program changes. That Wyndham was not engaging in fair dealing - that while they promoting the benefits of reach VIP status - they also were planning program changes that would preclude those benefits from being used in the manner they were encouraging people to buy them for.  I dont believe those lawsuits resulted in any meaningful compensation.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> *1)*Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed?
> 
> *2)*second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
> 
> *3)*so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?


*
1. *A deed timeshare has the owner listed on the deed. And the deed needs to be recorded.

*2.* Each deeded unit has 50 to 51 owners of it ... 1 week is usually kept for maintenance & out of service units in a resort. Can you get you 4 other siblings to agree to anything? Try getting 50+ owners of each week for a unit who all have their own desires and issues to agree on ANYTHING... much less anything involving money .... not going to happen.

*3*. Those who brought into CWA did NOT CREATE this problem. "CWA by Wyndham" was a very smart move to divide each resort's fixed week owner base ... from 50 deeded interval owners times 100 units (5000 owners) into a millions of owners ... all owning a very small piece of a (their) trust from sea to shining sea. CWP was a start but HOA meetings held still had interested owners participating and meeting other owners .. I know at one CWP HOA meeting, I found lots of other owners who owned as many or more CWP at their resort ... the VP closed the yearly meeting and RAN out ... when I asked a question and a block of mega-CWP owners for that resort ... chimed in.

So yes, Andrew, CWA owners do not own a particular resort. CWP owners .. like Bonnet Creek can number into the a hundred thousand or more owners (51 weeks times 600 units could be 31000 owners if a fixed week resort) but a CWP points owners could have been SOLD a deeded point contract as low as 7,000 CWP up to a 1,000,000 CWP contract (maybe even more).

I know CWP contracts do go up to a 1,000,000 points ... I have 1 of those.


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> This was the angle a number of lawsuits pursued after the last round of program changes. That Wyndham was not engaging in fair dealing - that while they promoting the benefits of reach VIP status - they also were planning program changes that would preclude those benefits from being used in the manner they were encouraging people to buy them for.  I dont believe those lawsuits resulted in any meaningful compensation.



And even if there was compensation it was on a case by case basis and it took over 5 years to get to the point where the parties would settle. And the rules that prompted the lawsuits still stand

So if anyone is tempted to sue.  Good luck with that


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## BellaWyn (Jun 13, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> *1. *A deed timeshare has the owner listed on the deed. And the deed needs to be recorded.
> 
> *2.* Each deeded unit has 50 to 51 owners of it ... 1 week is usually kept for maintenance & out of service units in a resort. Can you get you 4 other siblings to agree to anything? Try getting 50+ owners of each week for a unit who all have their own desires and issues to agree on ANYTHING... much less anything involving money .... not going to happen.
> 
> ...


To add insult to injury in all of this, even before CWA was introduced for purchase to the owners, the portfolio was systematically being populated with intervals from many resorts, thus breaking up the possibility that any CWP unit could be controlled by owners.  If you look at deed histories (especially at older resorts that were originally sold as FW), week intervals were handed off to CWA in batches.  At this late date, even if you got all the owners of a single unit together (50-51 owners), at least one or MORE of the interval owners would be CWA.

It's been a slow initial extraction process of CWP deeds to populate CWA on the front end, but growth has been accelerated with the "take-back" programs we call Ovation, Tribute, Legacy.  The dominoes have been systematically lined up pointing to CWA population.  *Next question is:  What's the plan to make it go faster?*

*Engineer chaos.*  Strong-arm and intimidate high point owners into exiting (owner's loss, WYN gain for none to minimal capital outlay), rollout a piece of crap website that limits search and reservation booking ability, change owner rules to minimize owner ability to function the way sales taught them to function and arrest what they have been ALLOWED to do for 10+years, do not adequately communicate or train VC's on the new system which cripples their ability to service the owners - thereby creating antagonistic relationships between owners and VC reps, take a corporate posture of no apology and no accountability....  *The list goes on and on....... *

All this creates fear, frustration, discouragement and disillusionment which subsequently motivates owners to exit their contracts, many of which will get handed back through the take-back programs.  The take-back programs put those contracts into CWA, thereby growing the club even faster.

_"Yeah, but how do the MF's for all those points get paid?"  _
A:  Wyn controls the system, they are first in line and have at least three + rental arms to sell off reservations to cover the MF's and still be profitable.

Think this wasn't planned?  Causal analysis experts make pretty good money, especially the ones that have a history of success in the planned outcome.  This has been on the design table for YEARS.  We just happen to be standing in the storm.

But WYN got an unexpected "surprise" in the process of the suspensions didn't they.....  Something they had not considered would happen.  A giant "Uh-Oh" and scrambling for CYA accelerated the trigger date.  The piece of the puzzle Ron _cannot_ talk about.


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 13, 2017)

Wyndhamgirl said:


> I've attempted to cancel/rebook twice.  Both attempts were the smallest unit at the resort.  One was Emerald Grande the other was great Smokey Mountain.  Sadly the reservations fell into a black hole never to return.  The Wyndham Representative said it is a live system and the reservation should return?  I continued to check for hours but they never came back?  I love the ability to cancel/rebook!  Hopefully one day this will be possible?  It's almost as if the new system releases inventory at random?  If anyone could figure this out please share so we can all be helped


Did this happen since May 19th (new system).  Because if so the VC totally mislead you. Cancellations in the new system are not coming back. Or at best extremely randomly. I read where one person thought theirs did - otherwise - nada.


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## comicbookman (Jun 13, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> To add insult to injury in all of this, even before CWA was introduced for purchase to the owners, the portfolio was systematically being populated with intervals from many resorts, thus breaking up the possibility that any CWP unit could be controlled by owners.  If you look at deed histories (especially at older resorts that were originally sold as FW), week intervals were handed off to CWA in batches.  At this late date, even if you got all the owners of a single unit together (50-51 owners), at least one or MORE of the interval owners would be CWA.
> 
> It's been a slow initial extraction process of CWP deeds to populate CWA on the front end, but growth has been accelerated with the "take-back" programs we call Ovation, Tribute, Legacy.  The dominoes have been systematically lined up pointing to CWA population.  *Next question is:  What's the plan to make it go faster?*
> 
> ...



Seriously?

While it is clear that Wyndham would love to move everyone to the CWA model, pushing people by screwing up the website launch is a ridiculous way to do it.  The new rules were coming regardless.  The suspensions clearly confused Wyndham.  They could easily have moved people to CWA through positive marketing if they really wanted to do it quickly. 

Ovation was so successful BEFORE the launch that they were already beginning to cherry pick deeds.  They did not need to risk a public relations backlash to drive people to Ovation, an aging owner base was doing that for them.  If they truly wanted to speed up CWA, they would stop selling deeds. 

Wyndham's best model is to have both.  That way they can pitch CWA to Deeded owners and Deeds to CWA owners as upgrades and "cures" for the problems on their account.

Botching the voyager launch is the least effective and least predictable path to the end game you propose.  I think it is exactly what it appears to be, the result of a weak IT department (there is years of proof of that) and constantly changing goals, rules and strategies that the system needed to support.  I doubt Wyndham corporate is smart enough to use engineered chaos as a plan.


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> When can the rental division get a rental?  Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date.   I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others.  How do they get the inventory?  Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?


Wyndham can take unreserved inventory up to 60 days before check in to rent

they can also as a member themselves make reservations to rent with the points they own


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## ecwinch (Jun 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham can take unreserved inventory up to 60 days before check in to rent
> 
> they can also as a member themselves make reservations to rent with the points they own


Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory?  So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.


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## scootr5 (Jun 13, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory?  So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.



That's correct, until the 30 day mark.


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## cyseitz (Jun 13, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory?  So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.


Used to be that I could be looking for something at BCR 3 weeks to check in.  I constantly check for a reservation and then BAM 9 -10 days to check in the calendar floods with availability up to 3 weeks to check in.  I ended up getting the reservation that I wanted, but I didn't like that I knew that Wyndham was holding on to reservations like that.


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## comicbookman (Jun 14, 2017)

cyseitz said:


> Used to be that I could be looking for something at BCR 3 weeks to check in.  I constantly check for a reservation and then BAM 9 -10 days to check in the calendar floods with availability up to 3 weeks to check in.  I ended up getting the reservation that I wanted, but I didn't like that I knew that Wyndham was holding on to reservations like that.



Remember, Wyndham is the largest points OWNER in the system.  I believe their ability to grab at 60 days is based on this fact and is actually a limitation. They do pay MR on those points.  While Wyndham grabbing reservations at 60 days sucks for us VIP owners, it leaves 8 months for all owners to grab a reservation.


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> Remember, Wyndham is the largest points OWNER in the system.  I believe their ability to grab at 60 days is based on this fact and is actually a limitation. They do pay MR on those points.  While Wyndham grabbing reservations at 60 days sucks for us VIP owners, it leaves 8 months for all owners to grab a reservation.



are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?


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## comicbookman (Jun 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?



It could be read that way.  Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark.  I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all.  It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.


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## raygo123 (Jun 14, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> It could be read that way.  Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark.  I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all.  It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.


60 days is when platinum VIP kicks in and when the cancel rebook starts.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## comicbookman (Jun 14, 2017)

raygo123 said:


> 60 days is when platinum VIP kicks in and when the cancel rebook starts.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


Yes, but that is not relevant to whether wyndham can make reservations before 60 days.


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## Nomad34 (Jun 14, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed?  second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
> so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?


When I purchased at the lodge in sevierville in 2012 I requested it be placed in my trust with Fairfield Owners Association and later saw it was placed in the trust in Little Rock but was also a part of CWA with their address in Orlando. This past November the trust voted out of CWA it seems but I am not sure. That would mean the deeded property is no longer part of CWA, right?


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## CO skier (Jun 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?





comicbookman said:


> It could be read that way.  Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark.  I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all.  It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.



Emphasis added:

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points *at any time*, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use."


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## comicbookman (Jun 14, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Emphasis added:
> 
> "11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points *at any time*, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use."



when I was reading it, somehow the first sentence got cut off the printout.  That seems pretty clear.


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> It could be read that way.  Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark.  I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all.  It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.




heres what it says in the trust agreement (i see I was a little slow getting this posted Looks like this is the third quote from the trust agreement)

wyndham has two sets of rights, one as an owner like the rest of us, and one as developer/manager


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## BellaWyn (Jun 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> heres what it says in the trust agreement (i see I was a little slow getting this posted Looks like this is the third quote from the trust agreement)
> 
> wyndham has two sets of rights, one as an owner like the rest of us, and one as developer/manager
> 
> View attachment 4144


Thanks Ron for posting this.  I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)

1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
3) Are there any schedules, ledgers or accounting documents available to the owners that support the ratio limitations (such as they are) stated in the trust?
4) How, specifically, outside of the written legaleze, does separation get made between "Wyndham" and the "Trustee?"  Who / what IS the Trustee? _ ("...occupancy related expenses shall be determine by the Trustee")_

Not asking to be contrary or snarky.  Asking because I do not fully understand all of the nuances of this trust language and fully acknowlege your superior experience with this kind of stuff.  And, I want to better understand how the following criteria fits into the equation:

1) Wyndham manages and controls the reservation system, which is also a type of inventory management system
2) Wyndham controls the points accounting system which is the currency used for FIFO extraction of the inventory.
3) Wyndham is both owner AND manager yet has SOLE access to the back-end detail of both the inventory and currency accounting
4 As manager of the points accounting system do operational protocols exist for regular reconciliation of owner points?  If so, how do we, as owners get access to those reconciliations?


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Thanks Ron for posting this.  I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)
> 
> 1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
> 2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
> ...



God knows I dont understand all this trust stuff either 

Im a big picture kind of guy and heres how I see the big picture 

There is a trust called the Fairshare Trust that holds all our use rights and provides the mechanism for exchange. Its what makes it possible for us,  to own at one resort and use that ownership to make reservations at any of the other resorts in the system.. 

There is a Trustee that  manages the  trust. 

Our trustee is the Fairshare Vacation Owners Association and we are all members

The Association has a board of directors, There are 3 individuals on the board, all appointed by Wyndham. There is a provision in the bylaws that allows for an expansion to 7 members. but that has never been done

So

I cant answer your questions, but more than that, neither your questions nor the answers  interest me.

What  I know is that this is Wyndham's thing. They make the rules. and Im free to play or not.   
As long as my ownership provides me with  vacation accommodations when and where I want and  at a price that makes sense to me Im happy and I dont much care what wyndhan gets out of it

That attitude is whats behind my usual advice which is.  Dont bother complaining or fighting the way things are. Accept what is and adapt


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## Nomad34 (Jun 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> God knows I dont understand all this trust stuff either
> 
> Im a big picture kind of guy and heres how I see the big picture
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts and I agree that complaining or fighting will not change the big picture. However, it does seem that the value of deeds has been deminished over time with CWA being introduced.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 14, 2017)

So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?

And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."

Regardless, point taken.  Shut up, stop asking questions and hope we can get some level of "play" out of what we own in the Wyndham designed and controled chaotic system.  It's their thing.  Roll over all you owners out there and feel lucky we let you play in the sandbox, litered with debrie as it is, and  make sure you keep writing those MF checks because we have a way of making you miserable if you don't (because it's our thing) and please don't get frustrated with not being able to make reservations to places you want to go, just be happy that you get to go to places that are leftover after we pulled out what we wanted first because those MF are just chump change and we can't promise you that just because you pay them you will get what we promised in return, because OBTW, we lied to you about that.....  sorry, it's our thing.


OK, that WAS snark.  And your opinion about it has no interest to me.


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## Bigrob (Jun 14, 2017)

I think we would like better transparency into what "is". Regardless of whether what "is" is fair or not, we are not even clear what "it" is. Based on the language in the agreement, Wyndham has two separate rights; one to book at any point (as owner of points); and one to book within 60 days ("developer rights"). It would be helpful to understand what Wyndham is actually doing with each of these rights, regardless of whether we agree that those rights are legitimate and/or create any OCI issues. 

Particular questions that I have are:

1) how many reservations are made by Wyndham beyond 60 days? At what times and at what resorts?
2) for reservations taken within 60 days; are actual points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations? How is the 10% of inventory preserved? systematically? (shudder)
3) for reservations taken within 30 days; (could be ALL remaining inventory) - same question, are points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations
4) for reservations held that enter the cancellation window, does Wyndham forfeit points if the reservations are subsequently released?

The point being, Wyndham should not have the ability to reserve as much inventory as may be allowed in the trust language, throughout the course of the year. 

I would also guess that there is at least some consideration that it is not a sustainable model for Wyndham to reserve all the desirable reservations ahead of owners. If that were the case, Ron may have had more difficulty getting his Mardi Gras reservations.


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?
> 
> And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."
> 
> ...



For me the  reason to discuss the trust is to have at least a general understanding of the club and my place in it

And at this juncture I don't own anything Wyndham, although there are a few contracts still snaking their way through the the transfer process. The accounts that hold those contracts are frozen

But I am still active, As an agent  I am  building  two 5 million point Platinum accounts for others, and Ill manage them to provide a little side income for each of us. .. however these new rules are making that look like a bad idea. Going forward, l'll probably just broker sales (look for me on ebay)

as to the "snarky" part of your post, I would have said it differently,  but yes, that  sums up our position pretty well.


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> I think we would like better transparency into what "is". Regardless of whether what "is" is fair or not, we are not even clear what "it" is. Based on the language in the agreement, Wyndham has two separate rights; one to book at any point (as owner of points); and one to book within 60 days ("developer rights"). It would be helpful to understand what Wyndham is actually doing with each of these rights, regardless of whether we agree that those rights are legitimate and/or create any OCI issues.
> 
> Particular questions that I have are:
> 
> ...




I agree completely, Wyndham shouldnt have the ability to reserve as much inventory as the trust allows.

 But it does and they do

With apologies to George Bernard Shaw and Bobbie Kennedy:  “*Some* men *see things as they are and say*, why; I ask, so now what?”


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## raygo123 (Jun 14, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> Yes, but that is not relevant to whether wyndham can make reservations before 60 days.


I know.  I was answering your question as to what it has to do with anything.

As far as Wyndham being able to make reservations before that?  Why couldn't they?  I know for certain they do it for discovery.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch (Jun 14, 2017)

Ron's position is essentially a restate of the serenity prayer. It is good advice IMHO. The art is in having the wisdom to recognize what can be charged (and what cannot).


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## IT Guy (Jun 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> But I am still active, As an agent  I am  building  two 5 million point Platinum accounts for others, and Ill manage them to provide a little side income for each of us. .. however these new rules are making that look like a bad idea. Going forward, ll probably just broker sales (look for me on ebay)



Ron,  I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service.  I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them.  Are you ready to start that brokering service?  I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.


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## nicemann (Jun 14, 2017)

IT Guy said:


> Ron,  I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service.  I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them.  Are you ready to start that brokering service?  I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.



Click on the person's name and then in the pop up, click "Start a Conversation"


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## ronparise (Jun 14, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?
> 
> And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."
> 
> Regardless, point taken.  Shut up, stop





IT Guy said:


> Ron,  I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service.  I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them.  Are you ready to start that brokering service?  I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.



Not yet. I'll be selling the 6 million points I bought since the first of the year, first. (most of which haven't yet settled)


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## happyhopian (Jun 14, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> It could be read that way.  Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark.  I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all.  It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.


My understanding is that they can grab ANY inventory after 60 days including that which would be beyond their ownership value but they have to leave 10% on the owner's market. I think this is essentially a bonus for them. The other reason I think this is that there are lots of units on extra holidays much farther out than 60 days so they are getting that inventory from somewhere other than owners placing it there.


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## CO skier (Jun 14, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> The other reason I think this is that there are lots of units on extra holidays much farther out than 60 days so they are getting that inventory from somewhere other than owners placing it there.


If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?

If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days.  The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?
> 
> If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days.  The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.


1)  It would only take a newbie owner *one time* dealing with an EH "turn in" to figure out EH is not the best use of their points and they net VERY LITTLE out of the process (lesson learned, don't do it again).  The process would rarely get repeated by that owner and they would "tell their friends" in the pool-side discussions. 

2)  Cancel / Rebook was the OLD system and likely did not use the same algorithms as we are seeing today.  Initially (for many YEARS) WYN didn't even try to prevent Cancel / Rebook.  The VC's assisted the process which infers that it was supported top-down.  Do not think Happy's assumption is flawed, just not yet proven.

Not saying WYN still didn't take good inventory out of the old system to populate EH.  As an owner, and developer, they have always had as much access (or more) to the available inventory as the owners have .....in the past.  

As BigRob says: 
_
"I don't think it's been established that "Wyndham is grabbing all the good reservations for Extra Holidays rentals."  
_
What we know is that inventory is still incompletely and inaccurately being populated in the current Voyager system.  Why it's taking so long remains a mystery.  Ineptitude, complexity of data points, organizational cross-purposes.  We have no idea.  Likely it will remain a mystery until the smoke clears.

And then we are left with just the mirrors....    It's their thing.


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?
> 
> If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days.  The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.


 
Yes, but the problem with Extra holidays is that you give them a week, they could ONLY rent ONE day of it.  Thats it.  Plus I don't think there is an easy way to track if they rented your unit vs someone else unit, at least that they share with the owner who deposits the rental.  PLUS, they take a hefty commission.  

Do I think it is worth it to rent through Extra Holiday? NO, not really.  They take took much control.


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## bogey21 (Jun 15, 2017)

ronparise said:


> *And at this juncture I don't own anything Wyndham*, although there are a few contracts still snaking their way through the the transfer process. The accounts that hold those contracts are frozen



Ron, I like your style.  You don't hesitate to act.  If I owned Wyndham, based on what I read on TUG I'd be gone too.  

Some 20 or so years ago I owned 4 Marriott Weeks.  I didn't like the way they were changing the rules to my detriment and like you I sold them all, at a profit I might add.  I stayed in TimeSharing in a different manner and it served me well.  Good luck.

George


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## chapjim (Jun 15, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> 1)
> 
> 2)  Cancel / Rebook was the OLD system and likely did not use the same algorithms as we are seeing today.  Initially (for many YEARS) WYN didn't even try to prevent Cancel / Rebook.  The VC's assisted the process which infers that it was supported top-down.  Do not think Happy's assumption is flawed, just not yet proven.



Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day.  I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.


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## BellaWyn (Jun 15, 2017)

chapjim said:


> Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day.  I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.


Somewhere in early 2009


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## BellaWyn (Jun 15, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> Ron, I like your style.  You don't hesitate to act.  If I owned Wyndham, based on what I read on TUG I'd be gone too.
> Some 20 or so years ago I owned 4 Marriott Weeks.  I didn't like the way they were changing the rules to my detriment and like you I sold them all, at a profit I might add.  I stayed in TimeSharing in a different manner and it served me well.  Good luck.
> 
> George


Hesitation had nothing to do with Ron exiting his contracts.  Read through the threads again. 

One does not hesitate when negotiating with the strong arm of Wyndham legal.  Resistance is futile - adapt and assimilate.  It's their thing.


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## bogey21 (Jun 15, 2017)

Either I wasn't clear or you misinterpreted my comment.  I was attempting to give Ron kudos for active decisively.

George


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## Bigrob (Jun 16, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> Either I wasn't clear or you misinterpreted my comment.  I was attempting to give Ron kudos for active decisively.
> 
> George



I think she got it, she was saying rather than acting decisively, Ron was reacting in the only way he reasonably could, as protracted litigation would not have been a particularly attractive alternative.


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## ronparise (Jun 16, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> I think she got it, she was saying rather than acting decisively, Ron was reacting in the only way he reasonably could, as protracted litigation would not have been a particularly attractive alternative.



She is more wrong than right

She is right that I really didnt have any other reasonable choice.

However,  while others were still tying to prove themselves "right" and "win" their fight,  I had already negotiated a settlement and we were working on the details of that settlement. I have to attribute that, at least in part to acting decisively.  Most important though was my ability to step outside myself to understand this thing from Wyndhams position


theres more to it that that of course.  Much of my decision making style goes back to a philosophy professor I had over 50 years ago. and the class he taught regarding the nature of freedom.  What I learned there was "freedom is an understood necessity; and to be free is to love ones fate"


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## am1 (Jun 16, 2017)

chapjim said:


> Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day.  I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.



Was very useful.  Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well.  Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc.  The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.


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## ladawgfan (Jun 16, 2017)

JohnWC said:


> New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink.
> Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
> I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
> The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
> Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?




Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 16, 2017)

ladawgfan said:


> Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.


No but you are welcome to try to find a lawyer to take the case on a contingency basis and then organize owners to certify the class.  My understanding with the last round of changes that included the removal of unlimited guest certificates to the highest level of VIP's and the ability to directly transfer points between accounts - other selling points at the time, was either determined that owners didn't qualify as a class or no firm would take on the case as a class action suit.  Several individuals filed cases on their own dime.  None went to trial, all were settled with a non disclosure statement for an undisclosed amount and Wyndham did not have to change or reverse any of the changes they made.  I believe these were actual listed program benefits prior to the change.


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## ronparise (Jun 16, 2017)

ladawgfan said:


> Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.




If any lawyer is interested in taking this on It would be the guy from Alabama that represented Bill Spearman and several others 10 years ago.. My understanding however that it wasnt a class action. rather each individual brought their own action
if you want to call him, pm me, Ill send you his name and number. 

You might also try the National Timeshare Owners Association if you are a member.  If enough of their members are affected that may be able to help
https://www.ntoassoc.com/


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## Braindead (Jun 16, 2017)

ladawgfan said:


> Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.


That's the weakest argument we have. 
I don't think any good attorney would advise filing a class action on contingency.

Any judge or jury will simply see you were using a loophole that's been closed. No different than a tax loophole closed. Tax loopholes were even law. 

Even if it's determined to be a verbal communication it was a loophole the sales weasel informed you of and now it's closed. Again your tax adviser informed you of a loophole and now it's gone.

My 2 cents worth


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## chapjim (Jun 16, 2017)

am1 said:


> Was very useful.  Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well.  Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc.  The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.



If that's what you had to go through to do a cancel/rebook, I stick with my assertion that it wasn't very useful!  Even if someone had the time, which I didn't and I expect most other owners didn't either, the risk seemed to be overwhelming.

There was no way I would have ever listed a rental outside 60 days before check-in with the old system.  I routinely did that when cancellations came back in seconds or minutes.


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## am1 (Jun 16, 2017)

chapjim said:


> If that's what you had to go through to do a cancel/rebook, I stick with my assertion that it wasn't very useful!  Even if someone had the time, which I didn't and I expect most other owners didn't either, the risk seemed to be overwhelming.
> 
> There was no way I would have ever listed a rental outside 60 days before check-in with the old system.  I routinely did that when cancellations came back in seconds or minutes.



Thats fine but it worked and was very successful.  Knowing what would be available right when the website open made it very easy.


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## Bigrob (Jun 16, 2017)

am1 said:


> Thats fine but it worked and was very successful.  Knowing what would be available right when the website open made it very easy.



That is correct... when they came back immediately at open the next day. Very easy to cancel at 11:44 and rebook next morning at 7:00 AM, same process as carrying reservations risk free into the cancellation window.

However, now they are not coming back at a predictable time, at least from what I've observed.


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## SherryFingerlin (Jul 9, 2017)

Andrew Robertson said:


> Wyndham's obligation is to grow stock for investors.  THAT is all.  Happy campers (timeshare owners) are a side or 2nd obligation.  first to grow stock you need to sell a product successfully.  They have done that.   I don't know about now?  What about Margarettaville?  Wonder how that is going?  Wyndham was starting to build again I wonder how sales will be if owners start attending again and saying they got shafted.  Look to stock to drop.  I just sold my shares.



Good for you. After the upgrade, their stock did go up. Don't usually follow, so not sure about now.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> That's the weakest argument we have.
> I don't think any good attorney would advise filing a class action on contingency.
> 
> Any judge or jury will simply see you were using a loophole that's been closed. No different than a tax loophole closed. Tax loopholes were even law.
> ...


The only class action I filled out for was ruled out because I didn't owe for any deeds. The last effort was September 2014 that seemed to spark the exit of the trust from Wyndham. One couple was paying over $450 fees and high interest on loan so I am glad they got out Scott free. I was told when I bought Daytona I could rernt it during the race week for at least $4000 but I never did until I was asked why and when I tried it was all booked. I never felt comfortable renting unless I knew the person. Wyndham has kept up most all of its inventory unlike RCI and other TS.  I will say that my sales meetings this year have been brief and pleasant. They still want my deeds but they are not up for penny sales or ftrr to Ovations. Anyone interested will have to make offers to Buy a Timeshare until I am released from their tentacles.


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## Jmama9643 (Apr 27, 2019)

BellaWyn said:


> Thanks Ron for posting this.  I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)
> 
> 1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
> 2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
> ...


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## Jmama9643 (Apr 27, 2019)

am1 said:


> Was very useful.  Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well.  Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc.  The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.




They put an end to that also.  You cannot grab more than one unit at a time with the same login/ownership.


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## Jmama9643 (Apr 27, 2019)

I would have NEVER Bought all the points I currently own if I had known that Wyndham would take away the ability to Cancel And Rebook like the SALES PEOPLE TOLD US WE COULD DO!!!  The 'Full' cost of points to make reservations at some of these locations is TOTALLY REDICULOUS!!!  ie… 350k points for a STUDIO Presidential at Avon!!!???  Really!?  $2000 for a Freaking Studio Week!!!  And that is becoming the Norm with the newer resorts!   I will NOT stay at Any of the newer resorts without my 50% discount because it is SUCH A RIPOFF!!!  AND, I am NOW seeing Wyndham is Raising the amount of points needed to reserve units as some resorts!!??  I thought that was supposed to be locked in FOR EVER per the LYING SALES PEOPLE!!  So, Not Only are our MF's going up EVERY YEAR!  But NOW it is costing even MORE POINTS to reserve the same units!!!  Wyndham has SURE SHAFTED Us VIP OWNERS!   I am going to have to seriously consider selling ALL of my points when I am done with them because of the way Wyndham has been Screwing us Owners!  I do NOT Want to strap my children with their REDICULOUS Changes.!  They just keep taking, and taking, and taking!   I used to Praise Fairfield, and Wyndham, but not anymore with all of the Screwings they have been handing out!


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 27, 2019)

Where are you seeing points needed for a reservation changing?   I thought that took almost an act of God to make happen.  I was not aware of any changes in that area.


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## bnoble (Apr 27, 2019)

Jmama: please stop yelling, and welcome to my ignore list.


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## 55plus (Apr 27, 2019)

Jmama9643 said:


> I would have NEVER Bought all the points I currently own if I had known that Wyndham would take away the ability to Cancel And Rebook like the SALES PEOPLE TOLD US WE COULD DO!!!  The 'Full' cost of points to make reservations at some of these locations is TOTALLY REDICULOUS!!!  ie… 350k points for a STUDIO Presidential at Avon!!!???  Really!?  $2000 for a Freaking Studio Week!!!  And that is becoming the Norm with the newer resorts!   I will NOT stay at Any of the newer resorts without my 50% discount because it is SUCH A RIPOFF!!!  AND, I am NOW seeing Wyndham is Raising the amount of points needed to reserve units as some resorts!!??  I thought that was supposed to be locked in FOR EVER per the LYING SALES PEOPLE!!  So, Not Only are our MF's going up EVERY YEAR!  But NOW it is costing even MORE POINTS to reserve the same units!!!  Wyndham has SURE SHAFTED Us VIP OWNERS!   I am going to have to seriously consider selling ALL of my points when I am done with them because of the way Wyndham has been Screwing us Owners!  I do NOT Want to strap my children with their REDICULOUS Changes.!  They just keep taking, and taking, and taking!   I used to Praise Fairfield, and Wyndham, but not anymore with all of the Screwings they have been handing out!


I don't know how long you've been an owner, but there is another way to work around the cancel and rebook roadblock. I call it, book, book and cancel. The reservations I need I book early at full points. Then, at 60 days out I start looking for the same reservation at half points. Or availability that will work for us. It works better If you are flexable. If/when availability comes available I book it and then cancel the other reservation I made at full points. I'm not familiar with with Avon, or the demand situation there or the number of units Wyndham has there, but it works at the larger resorts where we tend to visit. The chances of cancellations are better at larger resorts than small resorts. Once you figure out different ways to skin Wyndham's cats you'll be much happier. There is a learn curve. We've been owners since the early '90s when Fairfield started selling points. Whenever Wyndham throws lemons at us with a new policy we figure out how to make lemonade.

p.s. Sales Weasels lie and will say anything to steal your money and call it a commission.


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## Tank (Apr 27, 2019)

Without cancel /rebook how much more money is this costing for a reservation these days?

My guess would be double 

Got to be causing rental prices to be going up considerably


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## 55plus (Apr 27, 2019)

Tank said:


> Without cancel /rebook how much more money is this costing for a reservation these days?
> 
> My guess would be double
> 
> Got to be causing rental prices to be going up considerably


If you have 1 million points and take a 50% discounts your points convert to 2 million for what 1 million points cost in maintenance fees. Your maintenance fees cut in half meaning 2 million points cost approx $3 per 1000 if your fees were $6 per 1000. In other words your maintenance fees stay the same while your points double if all your reservations are discounted at 50%. And add to this, free unit upgrades if available.

Last year all our reservations were discounted at 50% with many of them upgraded. We snowbird in Florida for about 5 months every winter so there is a lot of availability which makes discounts and upgrades almost certain. Our Memorial Day week in DC is at 50% as was our New Orleans and Nashville trips. These were book, book and cancel to get the discounts. The only time we use full points is for the Presidential Inauguration every four years using ARP. I book those reservation at 13 months out. You have to have a plan and plan ahead.


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## CO skier (Apr 28, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Jmama: please stop yelling, and welcome to my ignore list.


One measure for me of the credibility of any post is the CAPS LOK and number of exclamation marks used.  At three exclamation marks in a single post, it becomes a scroll by goodbye.  Nothing to be learned there.


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## CO skier (Apr 28, 2019)

am1 said:


> Was very useful.  Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well.  Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc.  The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.





Jmama9643 said:


> They put an end to that also.  You cannot grab more than one unit at a time with the same login/ownership.


Wyndham restricted a number of systematic abuses with the launch of Voyager, as some owners predicted would happen with the launch.  The abuse detailed here is just another one of them.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 29, 2019)

CO skier said:


> One measure for me of the credibility of any post is the CAPS LOK and number of exclamation marks used.  At three exclamation marks in a single post, it becomes a scroll by goodbye.  Nothing to be learned there.


I see it as a long time Wyndham owner, happy for years with the system, I'm sure they paid a pretty penny for what they own. Over the years, losing more and more of their VIP benefits that they were promised over and over again as they were upsold several times (can you imagine the number of owner updates they must have gone to).  And now banging their head against the wall, and the only way to virtually express that is with caps and exclamation points.  After all these years, they found TUG (and we slammed 'em).  Tough crowd some days.


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## CO skier (Apr 29, 2019)

Sandi Bo said:


> I see it as a long time Wyndham owner, happy for years with the system, I'm sure they paid a pretty penny for what they own. Over the years, losing more and more of their VIP benefits that they were promised over and over again as they were upsold several times (can you imagine the number of owner updates they must have gone to).


This ground was covered almost 2 years ago in a number of threads.  Scroll back to post #84 (mid-page 4) in this thread for one example.


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## raygo123 (Apr 30, 2019)

Bigrob said:


> I think we would like better transparency into what "is". Regardless of whether what "is" is fair or not, we are not even clear what "it" is. Based on the language in the agreement, Wyndham has two separate rights; one to book at any point (as owner of points); and one to book within 60 days ("developer rights"). It would be helpful to understand what Wyndham is actually doing with each of these rights, regardless of whether we agree that those rights are legitimate and/or create any OCI issues.
> 
> Particular questions that I have are:
> 
> ...


Wyndham's ownership in the CWA trust fell below 5% as they had to elect an owner to the board.  It just happened to be the VP of something.  So they can book up to that.  Then there is the there is only so many one can book at any one resort.  Then there is Select.  Ovations gives Wyndham just in time inventory.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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