# Questions/Comments on DR Program to End Maintenance Fees



## JSDirago (Dec 20, 2018)

I would like to get feedback from DR owners about any information they have about a program DR had to eliminate maintenance fees. I attended a sales presentation at Polo Towers Las Vegas earlier this week and am not sure about the accuracy of what I was told and how much was true. We are generally pleased with DR, but have had negative experiences with the aggressive sales staff.

My biggest complaint about DR concerns the high pressure tactics used at alleged "owner updates."  We had a negative experience with this in 2015 at Polo Towers Vegas and vowed to never attend another TS presentation.  While back in Vegas at Polo Towers this past week, we were convinced by VIP to attend an owner update under their "Safe Guard" program, which would prevent any high pressured sales.  Well, not much changed as we experienced what seemed to be a shell game and sales pitch for 2 plus hours. 

First, we were told that the new ownership had a program that eliminated maintenance fees, but you had to pay what amounted to about 10 years worth of maintenance fees up front (about $33,000) and this would give us benefits and account credits when using DR Travel and end our maintenance fees.  I said it sounded too good and after the DR sales shark checking our records, he said he had the wrong paperwork for us and this did not apply and they "made a mistake."  Apparently, DR invited owners to attend dinners explaining this program back in 2017 and early 2018, but it ended back in May.  I said that if DR was making an offer, it should have been communicated in writing.  

The sales shark then said maybe he could convince corporate to allow me to pursue this deal, but it would have to be done today. I asked for something in writing to review and of course he had nothing. I refused the offer because it smelled fishy and the specifics were too fuzzy.  The sales manager then sat with us and asked why not write a letter to be sent to corporate to review and that would give me time to consider the offer.  I did this and a few minutes later, they said corporate said NO because it would have to be done right away. I said NO again.  I was shuffled off to another manager who "made it simple" and said if I paid about $4000 today, they could hold the deal for 2 years. I told them I wasn't doing anything today and he walked away in a huff.  We collected our $150 for attending, but felt we were abused needlessly again.  Although we are generally pleased with the DR program, the sales team are like a bunch of sharks.  

Were we being given some sales charade, or was there any legitimacy to this DR alleged offer?  ​


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## nuwermj (Dec 21, 2018)

JSDirago said:


> ... we were told that the new ownership had a program that eliminated maintenance fees, but you had to pay what amounted to about 10 years worth of maintenance fees up front (about $33,000) and this would give us benefits and account credits when using DR Travel and end our maintenance fees.  I said it sounded too good and after the DR sales shark checking our records, he said he had the wrong paperwork for us and this did not apply and they "made a mistake."  Apparently, DR invited owners to attend dinners explaining this program back in 2017 and early 2018, but it ended back in May.  I said that if DR was making an offer, it should have been communicated in writing.
> 
> ... Were we being given some sales charade, or was there any legitimacy to this DR alleged offer?  ​




I have seen, in various forums, perhaps twenty reports of this scheme over the last year. None of the people reporting the offer could understand how it works. I've not seen, nor heard of, any written explanation or documentation -- surely such a program would have contractual documents. Moreover, I have not seen anyone reporting that they acquired it. I believe this phantom program is a "sale charade." It is especially concerning, or at least revealing, that this charade has been used at multiple sales centers, in multiple sales regions. This leads me to believe senior sales managers are perpetuating the fraud.


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## JSDirago (Dec 21, 2018)

nuwermj said:


> I have seen, in various forums, perhaps twenty reports of this scheme over the last year. None of the people reporting the offer could understand how it works. I've not seen, nor heard of, any written explanation or documentation -- surely such a program would have contractual documents. Moreover, I have not seen anyone reporting that they acquired it. I believe this phantom program is a "sale charade." It is especially concerning, or at least revealing, that this charade has been used at multiple sales centers, in multiple sales regions. This leads me to believe senior sales managers are perpetuating the fraud.



Thanks nuwermj. I suspected this was a "sales charade" It is disappointing that DR continues these practices even under the guise of a "SAFEGUARD" program.  The VIP staff of DR continue to encourage attending the Owner Updates, yet you never receive anything that resembles this and get confronted with an aggressive sales pitch.  I also told the DR sales staff that this program should have some written documents to explain or owner's rights were being violated. My hope was that DR had taken a new course to be more owner friendly with the new ownership.  Obviously not the case.  The sales agent asked if ever attended a Marriott sales presentation and my experience. I told him Marriott was much less aggressive.


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## pedro47 (Dec 21, 2018)

To the OP, I bet your ts is paid in full with DRI and it is a deeded property?


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## JSDirago (Dec 21, 2018)

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, I bet your ts is paid in full with DRI and it is a deeded property?


Yes, our TS is paid in full and the original property we bought was deeded. We subsequently bought points and are in the DR system now with 15,000 points (Silver).  What is the significance of this? Thanks


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## Iggyearl (Dec 21, 2018)

What a coincidence...  You might want to go over to www.insidetimeshare.com for today's Message from America.  The website is run by an Englishman and is oriented towards timeshare in Europe and specifically Spain.  However, every Tuesday and Friday there are articles highlighting situations in America.  Irene Parker is a timeshare advocate who focuses on the indiscretions of the industry, but primarily on Diamond Resorts.  Today's article highlights 20 consumers who were mis-sold in Las Vegas.  Mostly by a guy named Rick Casper.  The article is very long, but you may have a deja vu  moment.  The details presented give a good case why timeshare companies don't want their sales presentations recorded by their customers.


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## JSDirago (Dec 21, 2018)

Iggyearl said:


> What a coincidence...  You might want to go over to www.insidetimeshare.com for today's Message from America.  The website is run by an Englishman and is oriented towards timeshare in Europe and specifically Spain.  However, every Tuesday and Friday there are articles highlighting situations in America.  Irene Parker is a timeshare advocate who focuses on the indiscretions of the industry, but primarily on Diamond Resorts.  Today's article highlights 20 consumers who were mis-sold in Las Vegas.  Mostly by a guy named Rick Casper.  The article is very long, but you may have a deja vu  moment.  The details presented give a good case why timeshare companies don't want their sales presentations recorded by their customers.



Thanks for the info. I read the article and it did have similarities to my experience. However, I was smart enough to smell something fishy and avoided any purchase. It makes me wonder about continuing with Diamond Resorts and why something isn't done to address these fraudulent practices. Its akin to robbing a person.  Just glad I said no and may never attend another timeshare presentation again!


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## SmithOp (Dec 21, 2018)

JSDirago said:


> Yes, our TS is paid in full and the original property we bought was deeded. We subsequently bought points and are in the DR system now with 15,000 points (Silver).  What is the significance of this? Thanks



If DR can get people to trade in their deeds for points it allows them to sell the same thing again at no cost to DR.  They put the deeds in the trust that supports the points program, thus making more points available to sell.  



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## tschwa2 (Dec 21, 2018)

Diamond like many developers have had various spins on the eliminate maintenance fees.  
Here is one:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...fees-magically-disappear.244033/#post-1905566

There was another one from a few years back where the scheme was to buy temporary points that would then put a hold on the regular maintenance fees for 3 or 5 years while the temporary ones were in effect but I think it turned out that it didn't work that way so he just paid $20,000 or so for temporary points got those but still had to pay and use his regular Diamond points which had another $30,000 in MF's.


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## JSDirago (Dec 22, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> Diamond like many developers have had various spins on the eliminate maintenance fees.
> Here is one:
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...fees-magically-disappear.244033/#post-1905566
> ...



Thanks for that post and it had a similar experience to mine.  Glad I didn't pursue, but I am frustrated that DR allows these sales practices to continue.


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## karibkeith (Dec 22, 2018)

JSDirago said:


> ..........the sales team are like a bunch of sharks.





Iggyearl said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The details presented give a good case why timeshare companies don't want their sales presentations recorded by their customers.


How can you tell when a DRI sales representative is lying?  His lips are moving.
We need names for the representatives you are going to see. There is always at least three: Tweedle One, Tweedle Two, and Tweedle Three.. 
Have you noticed how they all start off with a printed form and then ignore what is printed while jotting figures etc. upside down while they pitch? Then if you ask if you can keep it, they say NO.  You might use it to substantiate what they told you. I have a technique for this.  I take a blank piece of paper and write down whatever they write down. It drives them crazy.


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## rboesl (Dec 22, 2018)

I have seen where DRI is offering a way to pay your maintenance fees in 12 monthly installments.


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## bogey21 (Dec 22, 2018)

It would be interesting if one of the Big Boys offered Life Time no annual MFs for a price say 10 times the current fee.  The advantage for long term Owners would be that they would avoid Annual Increases in their MFs.  These would probably exceed the lost interest on their money.  Another potential benefit would be when they decide to sell.  Offering a Marriott, HGVC or the like with no MFs would likely result in a better price and quicker sale.  Just thinking out loud...

George


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## jerry1050 (Dec 22, 2018)

rboesl said:


> I have seen where DRI is offering a way to pay your maintenance fees in 12 monthly installments.


They just sent me this offer for 2019. No interest, and as if MF is paid in full. Sounds too good to be true. DRI never does anything without it being good for them, not for owners.


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## nuwermj (Dec 22, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> It would be interesting if one of the Big Boys offered Life Time no annual MFs for a price say 10 times the current fee.  The advantage for long term Owners would be that they would avoid Annual Increases in their MFs.  These would probably exceed the lost interest on their money.  Another potential benefit would be when they decide to sell.  Offering a Marriott, HGVC or the like with no MFs would likely result in a better price and quicker sale.  Just thinking out loud...




Hmm, what am I missing. You're taking about calculating insurance risks and premiums and that will require actuarial science. Otherwise, why would an HOA seriously consider such a plan?


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## nuwermj (Dec 22, 2018)

jerry1050 said:


> They just sent me this offer for 2019. No interest, and as if MF is paid in full. Sounds too good to be true. DRI never does anything without it being good for them, not for owners.



The default rates in the US Collection have about doubled in the last few years--and that's over the same time period the deed back program was introduced. Diamond seems to think that the new "SurePay" program will help reduce defaults. If you're a US Collection member, you can read some of the discussion in the HOA minutes.


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## bogey21 (Dec 23, 2018)

nuwermj said:


> Hmm, what am I missing. You're taking about calculating insurance risks and premiums and that will require actuarial science. Otherwise, why would an HOA seriously consider such a plan?



Increase Cash Flow; Eliminate Defaults; Decreased Collection Expense.  They also could get creative and set it up so the Prepaid MF Balance would go up in a puff of smoke whenever a Week changes hands except to a family member.  Just thinking out loud...

George


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## RLS50 (Dec 23, 2018)

nuwermj said:


> The default rates in the US Collection have about doubled in the last few years--and that's over the same time period the deed back program was introduced. Diamond seems to think that the new "SurePay" program will help reduce defaults. If you're a US Collection member, you can read some of the discussion in the HOA minutes.


I'm sure that there is more than just one reason for the higher default rate, but I have to think that one of the major causes was Diamond's rapid escalation of their maintenance fees from 2010 thru 2016.  During that timeframe Diamond raised their fees to some of the highest in the timeshare industry but they did not offer their owners a corresponding return in significantly upgraded properties or additional (reasonably attainable or cost effective) booking choices.

Also connected, I wonder if they weren't guilty of "eating their own" so to speak with their model they seemed to be so proud of where they claimed that most of their sales was to existing customers?  They seemed to portray that to Wall St as a great strength of their model.  Personally I have always believed that strategy seemed short sighted and raised longer term sustainability questions.  It's seems Diamond may have taken many of their customers that were (at one time) comfortable at their current point levels (possibly even happy with their ownership at one time).  However Diamond got them into one of their myriad of "owner updates" where they were eventually lied to and convinced they needed to spend a significant amount of additional money to upgrade to another level (or levels).  Then later those once loyal customers then discovered the promised benefits did not exist or may have never existed (but were completely made up by a salesman).

What I described above does not seem like a sustainable business model.   At the very least it's not a very strong business model.

When a company is obviously closing sales with pitches like (for one example), telling customers that they can use .30 cents per point to pay maintenance fees, I am sure the cost justification and budget analysis of those customers depended on that being true.   When those customers found out that was a total fabrication they then found themselves feeling disgusted, any trust or goodwill they may have felt toward Diamond irreparably damaged, or even worse possibly even now unable to pay because the math they used to justify their "new" purchase or upgrade had now significantly changed.


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## JSDirago (Dec 23, 2018)

karibkeith said:


> How can you tell when a DRI sales representative is lying?  His lips are moving.
> We need names for the representatives you are going to see. There is always at least three: Tweedle One, Tweedle Two, and Tweedle Three..
> Have you noticed how they all start off with a printed form and then ignore what is printed while jotting figures etc. upside down while they pitch? Then if you ask if you can keep it, they say NO.  You might use it to substantiate what they told you. I have a technique for this.  I take a blank piece of paper and write down whatever they write down. It drives them crazy.



The upside down writing is actually laughable. Some are not good at it at all.  The guy we had last week really wrote down numbers but really was not good at explaining what he was saying.


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