# DCs and membership numbers



## Kagehitokiri (Sep 13, 2007)

thought it would be interesting/useful considering the UR/PE merger..

from helium report and other sources (approx) >

exclusive resorts - 2500+ 
ultimate resort/private escapes - 1200+ 
quintess - 400+
high country club - 275+
portofino club - 140+
m private residences - 115+
bellehavens - 100+
lusso collection - 90+
solstice collection - 70+
crescendo - 70+
distinctive holiday homes ~ 20
premier destinations ~ 10

unknown >

ciel club
hideaways club 
markers
my global playground 
oyster circle
ventures equity vacation club  
worldwide private residences lp 
yellowstone club world


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 13, 2007)

Question...

Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 13, 2007)

good question - some people seem to go one way or the other.

peresonally, im more interested in the exact nature of the club, and their current roster of homes.

in terms of an actual cap, i guess i kind of like that idea? 3 of the 4 clubs im watching happen to have caps. its not one of the things i really considered much though. which is kind of interesting.

and it is a useful criteria when comparing clubs, regardless. it also might give you an idea of where potential mergers and acquisitions might be.


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## LTTravel (Sep 13, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Question...
> 
> Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?



Even a boutique club wouldn't have 100 locations for 600 members. The economies of scale would make even the most boutique of clubs have at least two if not more homes in one destination, just not 20-40 like ER does. But the answer to that question you pose depends on how many vacations a year and how much variety you like. I have friends who have a TS in Cancun and have been going to the same place for 25 years in a row. I can't get them to try any other place. We went for 5, and like Cancun alot, but we want to try other places. They won't come along with us so we have to experience the new places alone, untill we get new traveling partners.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 13, 2007)

going from what LTTravel was saying (demonstrating his point with specific numbers) >


lusso is capped at 550 members / 100 properties

current destinations - 11 (1-2 properties each)
current destinations listed as future - 19


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## LTTravel (Sep 13, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> going from what LTTravel was saying >
> 
> 
> lusso is capped at 550 members / 100 properties
> ...



Lusso has said that they would like at least two properties per destination. They are very close to two per destination now. When they compare themselves to Quintess, they point out that Quintess has many destinations with only one property, which makes availability more of a problem at the more desireable ones.  As you state, if they stick to their plans with about 100 properties and 30 destinations, that is an average of 3.33 per destination.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 13, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Even a boutique club wouldn't have 100 locations for 600 members. .



Good point.  How about something like 600 members with 100 homes in 30 to 50 locations.


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## vineyarder (Sep 14, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Question...
> 
> Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?



Personally, I'd go for more destinations / more choices.  When I joined PE, they had a membership cap of 400 (per club), but had already decided to eliminate the cap, as surveys of members showed that they wanted more destinations.  Interestingly, after the merger, PE/UR will have 10 more destinations than ER, despite ER having more than twice the number of members...

Another (theoretical) consideration is the impact of a membership cap on customer service, etc.  If a club is capped at 600 members, and hits the cap, then are they less likely to worry about pleasing members?  After all, if they are at the cap, they no longer need to devote much (if any) resources to sales & marketing... and since if a member wants to leave, they have to wait until another membership is sold... but there is no marketing effort, so no one is waiting to join... and the club doesn't care, since you're stuck in until someone calls up and asks to join.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 14, 2007)

ER is taking a building approach of buying/developing 20-30 homes per new location. They are able to use econimics of scale to get the cheapest prices. I think this is nice for a few locations, but not all as it really limits their destination choices.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

speaking of PE/UR vs ER >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391947&postcount=45

PE/UR
44 destinations 147 properties
30+ destinations 60 hotel properties

ER
34 destinations 370 properties
5 "once in a lifetime" fee-based tours/safaris/cruises

(moved the world > "once in a lifetime" since they charge $450 daily fee)


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> speaking of PE/UR vs ER >
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391947&postcount=45
> 
> PE/UR
> ...



The structure of UR/PE is still not clear. Based on the information available at present, only PE Pinnacle members, of all the different plans, tiers, whatever, of the two clubs will have access to all of the homes. Even that is not clear. It would not be fair to have PE Pinnacle members have access to all the homes in the portfolio and have UR Elite Platinum members have access to only the highest tier homes. This significantly decreases the number of destinations and properties available to any one memeber, except for maybe the PE Pinnacle member. There are still many questions to be answered about this and what the structure of the club is going to be. It is not fair for the new UR/PE to compare the number of properties/destinations it has, unless all members have access to all the destinations and properties. They MUST make that clear in the advertising!


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

again, from the wording it *sounds like* theyre carrying in reciprocity. even if tier 1 and 2 can only have 1 week of reciprocity, it allows them to say "use every destination/property"

the thing that is really vague IMHO is whether joining now gets you any benefit (whether you stick with plan you join like current members, or eventually get shifted into a new plan)


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 14, 2007)

I am starting to be of the opinion that the new UR/PE will be a better "top tier" club to join than ER.


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## whatmough (Sep 14, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I am starting to be of the opinion that the new UR/PE will be a better "top tier" club to join than ER.



I agree.  I sounds like ER is out to maximize their real estate portfolio value while UR/PE and also HCC is more interested in maximizing member's travel experience.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

without considering unlimited use for no additional fee, ER does appear to have the highest potential nightly savings, of any DC, at some of their properties. but they also have plenty where its the same / less to book direct.

also splitting the ultra plan 3 ways is cheaper/has more nights than base plan, and allows anyone to use the plan nights - so might be better than a number of other group/corp plans, plus you could theoretically "resell" nights, although im sure its technically prohibited.

overall, after really looking at it, their property portfolio doesnt really impress me though. after quintess builds their private cabo development, ER will no longer be the only one with that either.

oh, one thing - if its true no other club can get properties on The World, that IS another distinct advantage, and a good value in terms of plan nights. their floorplans for the price seem better than the other residential ships.


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> again, from the wording it *sounds like* theyre carrying in reciprocity. even if tier 1 and 2 can only have 1 week of reciprocity, it allows them to say "use every destination/property"
> 
> the thing that is really vague IMHO is whether joining now gets you any benefit (whether you stick with plan you join like current members, or eventually get shifted into a new plan)



1. I am not sure they will offer reciprocity for UR members, but you never know. When I had talked to them some time ago, they (UR) said that it didn't make sense. And if the old plans are unchanged, then UR members will not have reciprocity because they don't have it now. 

2. The advantage of joining now is that a. they plan a significant price increase after the merge and b. UR currently offers a refund of 80% CV, but that will apparently go away after the merge. 

I think that they should have worked this all out prior to announcing the merge. Perhaps they have and are working on the fine details.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

but from what vineyarder was saying, his plan _will_ change somewhat, just not substantially/having things taken _away_.


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> 1. overall, after really looking at it, their property portfolio doesnt really impress me though. after quintess builds their private cabo development, ER will no longer be the only one with that either.
> 
> 2. oh, one thing - if its true no other club can get properties on The World, that IS another distinct advantage, and a good value in terms of plan nights. their floorplans for the price seem better than the other residential ships.



1. I understand that everyone has different tastes, but I think some of their homes are excellent. Certainly, with 375 homes, some are better than others. 
The have a development in Vail coming up that has nearly doubled in value (at the base of the Gondola, ski in ski out) before they are even finished, 4 BR at the Esperanza, Real del Mar, homes at Little Dix Bay, Trump (though they sold those), largest homes at Abaco, Tuscany, Costa Rica development, Grand Cayman, Regent Palms in Turks. Sure, I don't like their homes in Jackson Hole, Scottsdale, Bovey Castle, but there's still plenty to chose from. 

2. The World, though it sounds great, is not the greated asset. They charge a daily fee of $400 per room in addition to using your alloted days, It is impossible to book and you can only book for one week at a time. If you look at the schedule for The World, you wouldn't want to go to many of the destinations. And over a period of one week, you will make port in two or at most 3 cities. Not like a cruise ship at all. Just a floating hotel. I would still love to try it one day, but I don't think that many ER members benefit from The World.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

what? $400 fee? why is that not mentioned anywhere?? they charge a freaking fee for the seabourn cruises, and they dont even own those... ~$1500 is still better than $3000 though.

my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, lusso, and WPR seem to have done/planned.

re the savings - little dix and regent palms are actually not available direct, and the top rate direct is ~$5K+ more than what you can get via ER. huge plus if you like the properties. id still personally rather go elsewhere.


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> what? $400 fee? why is that not mentioned anywhere?? they charge a freaking fee for the seabourn cruises, and they dont even own those... ~$1500 is still better than $3000 though.



Sorry, the correct number is $300 per night in 2007 and $450 per night in 2008. The monthly maintenance fee on The World is so high (I think around $160,000 per year for a 2 bedroom, mostly due to increased fuel costs), that they started to impose a daily use fee in 2007


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, *lusso*, and WPR seem to have done/planned.
> 
> \.




Lusso just announced a ski in skin out at Aspen Highlands. Available in January.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

ah! still ridiculous considering the fee for seabourn. any idea what it or the other once in a lifetime cost?


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, lusso, and WPR seem to have done/planned.
> 
> .



I agree with that. They have 35 homes in Cabo but only 3 in Turks. They have 25 in Scottsdale and only 9 in SoCal. 21 in Costa Rica seems overkill. 30 in Las Vegas and 8 at Bovey Castle? What were they thinking?  I'd love the job as acquisition planner. *42* homes on Maui???  I guess they think they will grow into these numbers. I think that I could do a better job.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

indeed, that would be a great job. BUT ER especially is more concerned with buying bulk/cheap. not what id want to do. id be more interested in consulting for ciel/WPR/lusso/DHH. 

their private costa rica dev is nice. but yeah, quintess will be doing only ~12 homes (~$48MM) in their dev, as opposed to 21.


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> ah! still ridiculous considering the fee for seabourn. any idea what it or the other once in a lifetime cost?



A one week cruise on Seaborn on the Mediteranean in the Summer currently costs $11,000 for two.(3968 Euros per person) (that is a 25% discounted rate. Discounts range from 0-50% depending on time, time booked, projected occupancy, etc)  That of course is for an outside cabin, all food and drinks (except specialty wines only) most excursions (except tipping for outside excursions) and all gratuities are included. The food is supposed to be gourmet (including caviar) and alcohol is all top grade. I believe that there is an additional fee for the once in a lifetimes for ER.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

my question is what is the daily fee ER charges? i asked a sales person, but it was after i started giving them the impression i was not interested in buying soon, so they didnt bother responding. 

africa, bhutan(como not aman), seabourn med cruise, galapagos cruise are their once in a lifetime options, all requiring a daily fee in addition to using your plan nights. they should call the world that too now, with that $450 fee... now booking space available is the same as booking direct. 

i did a seabourn crossing last year, it was pretty nice, but id wait for their new ships before going again. after the new ships it seems the best overall IMHO. seadream apparently has better F&B. and hapag llyod's ms europa is supposed to have better service, but doesnt include alcohol. i didnt think the caviar or champage were particularly good quality. discounts on louis xviii were great though - $37.50 a shot. (other two all inclusive are silversea and regent)

i never consider the so called "discounts off published rate" actually discounts. discounts would be off the actual rate they charge. like the crossings are one of the few times they have the best single supplement, i paid 8% instead of the usual much higher supplement. i dont think its usually 100%, maybe 80%? peak is 100%. and higher cabin category, unless youve got a lot of seabourn/cunard days under your belt.

thinking about PE/UR vs ER some more - it also depends on how many properties PE/UR have in the pipeline.. ER has quite a few.


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## saluki (Sep 14, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Lusso just announced a ski in *skin* out at Aspen Highlands. Available in January.



Sounds racy!.........


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 14, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Lusso just announced a ski in skin out at Aspen Highlands. Available in January.



I would like to Preview this one. Kinda like the preview I wanted at The Cove in Atlantis last month.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

does aspen highlands = snowmass? ive never fully gotten the CO differentiations. (can you tell i dont currently ski? )


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## travelguy (Sep 14, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> does aspen highlands = snowmass? ive never fully gotten the CO differentiations. (can you tell i dont currently ski? )



No.

Aspen Highlands, Snowmass, Ajax (Aspen Mountain) and Buttermilk are all different.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

ok thanks, sorry for being the ski-newb


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## LTTravel (Sep 15, 2007)

The Lusso home is in the Thunderbird Townhomes section of Aspen Highlands. Ski in Ski out, walk to Aspen Highlands village and use of the facilities at the Ritz Carlton. One of the townhomes sold for $3,500,000 in July. Don't know if this is the one that Lusso bought. But it is nice to see that Lusso actually has $3million+ homes, not $1.8 million homes that they claim are worth over $3 million. The home looks great. There is a video of the development online at:
http://www.turnhere.com/city/Aspen_CO/All/films/621.aspx


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 15, 2007)

thanks for some more details - it certainly looks great. 4BR sleeps 10, elevator, rec room.

http://lussocollection.com/page/aspen-thunderbowl.jsp


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## pwrshift (Sep 15, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> ...lusso is capped at 550 members / 100 properties


 
Isn't that a bit of a reach for Lusso at this point, considering their numbers?

Brian


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## LTTravel (Sep 15, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> Isn't that a bit of a reach for Lusso at this point, considering their numbers?
> 
> Brian



I think that they will be over 100 members shortly if they are not already. Their niche will be the smaller, more boutique DC. They pride on buying select, nice homes, rather than mass produced homes. Definately a different approach than ER. I think that their main competitor is Quintess, but they offer much more value than Quintess with Quintess' current pricing. I think of them more as a discounted Solstice. Though Solstice claims average value of $6.5 million, I don't like alot of their homes. Their Cabo San Lucas home is beautiful, but it is in Pedregal, not very convenient to the beach. Lusso's homes are beachfront. Their Aspen homes are too contemporary, I Like Lusso's selection better. In New York, I think that they could have done better than an apartment in the West Village for $6.5 million. Their St. Barts home is also very contemporary, and not beachfront. Their Napa, Florence, London and Paris homes are nice though, but not ones that I would go to often. Lusso offers the same features such as SUV, Airport transfers at a much lower price point. They also offer membership appreciation in value. If it wasn't for the Tanner and Haley bankruptcy, I think that they would have had 200+ members by now. Just that some people have been migrating to ER because of its size and stability.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 15, 2007)

if ciel's new plan is ~$500K, i like their current/planned properties a lot better (than solstice) as well as model, usage, etc.

solstice doesnt have vehicles do they?

its *very* interesting how many people quit ER and join other clubs.


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## LTTravel (Sep 15, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> solstice doesnt have vehicles do they?
> 
> 
> its *very* interesting how many people quit ER and join other clubs.



I don't know but thought Solstice had vehicles

Do you know how many have quit ER and jointed other clubs?


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 15, 2007)

id like to know the number of resignations period, but its probably kept secret under threat of harsh NDA violation penalties or something. (unlike other clubs which use the low number as a sign of member satisfaction - and are more transparent in general)

i take helium report reviews with a grain of salt, but a fair number say they switched from ER.

also, when testimonials on club sites say "switched from another club" id think that pretty much means ER, although there might be some from T&H.

BTW does anyone know if Ciel's NY condo is in the time warner building? kind of seems like it (view, architecture, furnishings) think its the initial city picture too.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 18, 2007)

ER is now 3000+


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## Kagehitokiri (Oct 18, 2007)

http://www.heliumreport.com/archives/852-my-global-playground-no-longer-playing
another one bites the dust.

and WPR doesnt seem to be doing well either.  
i really like their model.

http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/lusso-100-members.html
lusso hits 100 (along with updated numbers of other DCs over 100)

will be interesting to see how long it takes crescendo and solstice to get there.

another gone. website is down.
http://www.premierdest.com/
http://www.heliumreport.com/archives/322-interview-with-premier-destinations-ceo-vicki-vorhees
looks like they only had 1 property and needed 20 members to launch 9 more properties, and they only got to 15.

updated >

exclusive resorts - 3000+
ultimate resort/private escapes - 1200+
quintess - 400+
high country club - 275+
portofino club - 160+
m private residences - 122+
bellehavens - 100+
lusso collection - 100+
solstice collection - 78+
crescendo - 68+
distinctive holiday homes - 29+
ventures equity vacation club - 20+

ciel club
hideaways club
markers
oyster circle
worldwide private residences lp
yellowstone club world


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## Steamboat Bill (Oct 18, 2007)

I think My Global Playground had membership fees approaching $500k...ouch!

I really liked the info on the club members:


	Exclusive Resorts 	3,000

	Ultimate Resort/Private Escapes	1,200

	Quintess 	400

	High Country 	270

	Portofino 	160

	M Private 	122

	BelleHavens 	100


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## Kagehitokiri (Oct 26, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> another gone. website is down.
> http://www.premierdest.com/
> http://www.heliumreport.com/archives/322-interview-with-premier-destinations-ceo-vicki-vorhees
> looks like they only had 1 property and needed 20 members to launch 9 more properties, and they only got to 15.



http://www.heliumreport.com/archives/872-premier-destinations-stumbles-early

looks like i may have provided that info for helium report  (like others here might have done before)

--------------------------------

merger possibilities? >

$2MM+ "equity"
- m private residences - 122+ / 16 $2.5MM / 92% current
- bellehavens - 100+ / 14 $2MM / 90% current
- hideaways club - ? / 11 $2MM / 100% + 75% gain

~$1MM > $3MM
- ultimate resort/private escapes - 1200+
- high country club - 275+

--------------------------------

was just reminded of something while looking, im pretty sure oyster circle's miami property was acquired from my global playground.

--------------------------------

estimates for some of the unknowns >

markers <90 (10 properties, 9:1)
oyster circle <78 (13 properties, 6:1)
hideaways club <66 (11 properties, 6:1)
worldwide private residences lp <20 (2 properties, 10:1)

ciel club ?
yellowstone club world ?


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## pwrshift (Oct 27, 2007)

If HCC is taking aim on position #3 in members at 400 with about 270 right now, are they not falling behind in their promise to add a new location with every 6-8 new members?

I hate pie-in-the-sky forecasts for growth, but the places they've added over the last year doesn't seem to be keeping pace with their promise...and still almost no development on the east coast.  In fact, the ones listed 'in development' haven't changed much either.

http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/Future_Destinations.asp

Brian


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## Kagehitokiri (Oct 27, 2007)

http://web.archive.org/web/20070206...untryclub.com/destinations/In_Development.asp
http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/In_Development.asp

30 current
3 pending

8:1 would be 240, and the 275 number is not "full members", which is apparently what some clubs with multiple plans use for the ratio. 
(technically faulty IMHO)


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## Steamboat Bill (Oct 27, 2007)

HCC does not publish a breakdown of their membership types and it takes 6-7 private members (or the equivalent) to buy one property.

HCC is actually "ahead of the curve" when it comes to buying properties vs their member:home ratio.


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