# This is how I calculate the true cost/savings to own a timeshare, is this right?



## michael13 (Nov 24, 2021)

*Assumptions Scenario 1 - Owning a timeshare:*

I purchase a quality week from a quality resort on the resale for $15,000.00, hold it for 15 years and sell it for the same price that I purchased. 
I use my timeshare week for vacation every year.
*Assumptions Scenario 2 - Not owning a timeshare:*

I deposit my upfront cost for timeshare purchase into an investment account with ROI at 8% YOY.
I take vacations every year and stay in the same resort that I plan to make timeshare purchase, I pay retail price or rent from another timeshare owner. 
The cost of my vacation without timeshare is MF of the timeshare + $2000.00. For example if the typical MF for a 2BR at resort A is 1800/Year, I will pay 3800 to rent a week in that resort. 

*Cost of Vacations with Timeshare:*
investment account value at year 15 = 15000 * (1.08^15) = 47852.54, 
net profit = 47852.54 - 15000 = 32582.54, 
cost of vacation = *$32,582.54 + MF over 15 years.

Cost of Vacations without Timeshare:*
2000 * ((1.08^15) -1) / 0.08 = 54304.23 =* $54304.23 + MF over 15 years.

Net Savings with Timeshare over 15 years:* *$21721.69

Disclaimer: *This is only true when you have to vacation on a resort week that MF is significantly lower than rental or retail. This is also true if you can lock off your room and multiply the value with exchanges.

*Explanation:*
Q. Why you included MF for vacation option without timeshare?
A. It's based on the assumption that the cost of vacation without timeshare is equal to MF plus extra $2000. If the MF for that resort on year one is 1500, then my cost of vacation will be 3500 without timeshare. If, for example year ten the maintenance fee becomes 2500, then my cost of vacation to rent or buy from retail will be $4500.

Q: What is the formula you used to calculate cost of vacation without timeshare?
A: That is to assume if you have timeshare, you can deposit the yearly savings of vacation into the same investment account, so it's equivalent to making an investment with yearly contribution of $2000. There are different version of formulas to calculate this number and it depends on the contribution is made at the beginning or at the end of the year.


Now I feel like I am a timeshare sales guy


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## bnoble (Nov 24, 2021)

michael13 said:


> hold it for 15 years and sell it for the same price that I purchased


I would not assume that you will definitely recoup your entire purchase price. I usually like to know what it would be if it were worth zero.

I also think 8% after taxes might be a little aggressive for a revolving fund.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 24, 2021)

Your investment return would be taxable. 8% after taxes is high given current interest rates. Or not without risk if you are buying securities.


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## icydog (Nov 24, 2021)

I think the odds of recouping your initial costs are slim the longer you own the timeshare. What I do is rent my timeshares out and use the money I get to pay for my maintenance fees. Then vacations are closer to being “free” than in your assumptive scenario.


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## cp73 (Nov 24, 2021)

I looked at it slightly different than the way you laid it out but the end result is the same. With no timeshare your $15,000 investment is worth $32,582.54 at end of 15 years. Your rental cost is $54,304.23 for 15 years giving a difference of $21,721.68 plus the maintenance fees. The difference is basically the change between your investment value and the additional $2000 over maintenance fees that you pay. In addition you factored in the same maintenance fees to both sides. 

As others have said I think your residule of $15,000 at end is high. I purchased resale about 12 years ago at $8000, today at DSV 1 a red week sells for $3000. Also I think your rental value of $2000 over maintenance fees is too high. Depends on resort but I would say an average is closer to $1000. Hawaii maybe closer to $1500. Also you didn't factor in any upfront closing fees on your purchase. And as others had mentioned you assumed no taxes. 

You also assumed no trading fees but staying in the same resort each year. 

The big advantage of renting is flexibility to go only when you want to (dont go, short notice, and 12 months planned ahead) and where you want to go anywhere in the world. This may make it financially less costly. 

The advantage of purchasing is you will go on more vacations and feel like an owner.


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## CO skier (Nov 24, 2021)

Do you mean "timeshare" in general, or "Marriot timeshare"?  Big difference.

I own a WorldMark credits timeshare, similar to Marriot Destination Points; buy-in cost about $3,000-4,000.  Any year I want, I can reserve a week 51 or 52 ski vacation in a 3 bedroom for $1100-1500 at a resort with a free shuttle to the base area.  Comparable rentals are $600+/night on AirBnB, VRBO, etc. with no shuttle.

Simple calculation.  Yeah, timeshare ownership, even with an ultimate resale value of $0, beats the pants off of renting.


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## bogey21 (Nov 24, 2021)

cp73 said:


> .
> The big advantage of renting is flexibility to go only when you want to (don't go, short notice, and 12 months planned ahead) and where you want to go anywhere in the world. This may make it financially less costly.



I think flexibility and the "when you don't go" are the keys.  If you own, when stuff happens that you can't use your Week or Points you have to figure out how to recoup you MFs.   Renters don't have to screw with this.  In addition, Renters will not have disposition issues...

George


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## Dean (Nov 26, 2021)

michael13 said:


> *Assumptions Scenario 1 - Owning a timeshare:*
> 
> I purchase a quality week from a quality resort on the resale for $15,000.00, hold it for 15 years and sell it for the same price that I purchased.
> I use my timeshare week for vacation every year.
> ...


IMO a timeshare needs to make sense if the up front cost is totally lost.  One also need to include a decent inflation year after year.


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## Bob & Mary (Nov 27, 2021)

So that’s a financial calculation. How do we account for the quality? For example, we own Wyndham. No matter which resort we stay, we know the quality is going to be very good As opposed to rental property which may vary widely.

For us, timeshare has always been more about the quality of the accommodations, amenities, and vacation than the financial benefits if any.


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## VacationForever (Nov 27, 2021)

As with a couple of posts above, you have to assume that you will sell for $0 after 15 years or however many years.  The purchase price also depends...you can pick some up for more cheaply from resale market, or higher if from developer.

There is also a difference in rack rate of rental from the hotel chain vs. private owners.  I don't trust renting from timeshare owners and would book directly from the hotel chain.  However, if you rent from timeshare owners, the difference in MF and actual rental price varies with the resort.  For some resorts, the difference may be under $1000, while others may command a $2000 difference.


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2021)

I assume no value at sale of my timeshare. I calculate nightly cost every year based on an average of the total nights due to the ownership with all fees/taxes (including extra housekeeping fees) to obtain an average nightly cost. I’ve found over many years, at least in my case for Westin Kierland, my average nightly cost is substantially lower than equivalent resorts would be for rental. 

When I first bought I also tried to calculate rental options based on opportunity cost of the purchase price, etc. Then I realized, for me, the main purpose of owning a timeshare was to force myself to travel and if I rented that wouldn’t happen. So I bought, and I really don’t care that the value of the unit has decreased since it still makes financial sense, based on an average nightly cost. YMMV.


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## dori47 (Nov 27, 2021)

Prior to the pandemic, I could vacation, and owning the timeshare meant I did vacation. I own my own business, as does my husband, and I was reluctant to vacation previously, but owning the timeshare, I don't want to lose out on my week. I have lost out on two weeks and some points since the pandemic as I cannot get away from work ( we are short staffed in my industry and over worked) I have never been able to rent my unit out, other than to family, but I keep trying on the years we can't make it. Since I paid very little up front, and my maintenance fees are not much, I feel okay about owning. I do worry I will not be able to sell when I decide I do not want it anymore, but for the 10 years we have been owners now, we have been happy.
I feel 8 % return is a little over the top, and the cost of renting is too high too, since you could likely get bargains last minute if you were flexible on where and when you went. So for the value, maybe being a time share owner isn't great financial decision, but every time we vacation and talk to other owners, everyone is happy they are an owner


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## drlee (Nov 27, 2021)

Interesting analysis. Our view of our timeshare is based on a differeent set of criteria. (We were never going to buy a timeshare). But we found a place we loved, and wanted to return for vacation, so we bought an every other year (week) in Maui. We have since added to our portfolio, owning a total of four weeks there, with three of them being two bedroom units, so we can lock off and stay up to seven weeks if we want. When we invite people to come join us, the two bedroom units work great, and when it's just us, we have often stayed in the one bedroom units and traded the lockoffs. So since 2002 or so we have come back to Maui every year, and stayed in timeshares elsewhere from coast to coast via intrval trades. From a financial point of view, our first salesperson told us that this is not an investment. It is a commitment to vacationing where we want, and generally when we want. In this particular resort, when we first bought, rack rate at the hotel was $300 a night or so, and it's now $500+ per night. Yes, maintenance fees have increased, but we don't regret the purchase. Some non-financial aspects;
    1. Guaranteed access to unit size and view (Platinum, ocean view) in season
    2. A place we love and have no problems returning year after year
    3. A magnet to draw kids, grandkids and friends for visits
    4. High trade value. Have traded to many resorts, and even traded back into Maui. A fee lets us upgrade size (from lockoff to 1 or 2 bedroom)
    5. Free parking, gym, resort amenities and great staff
    6. Forces us to go on vacation, or to give away time to friends and family or rent to others.
So if we had done a financial future net value on timeshares, I don't believe that we would have purchased. We certainly couldn't do four to seven weeks in a row for the cost of the maintenance fees. 
My point is that for many, the value of timeshares is not in the finance, but in the experience.


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## marmite (Nov 27, 2021)

I've seen some TUGgers that have used 10 years (instead of 15), so that is what I generally calculate against.  However, I really compare the cost of ownership to what I personally would _usually_ pay for a vacation, not what the rack-rate or rental cost might be.  i.e. If I usually get a condo on Priceline for $300/night, then I am using $2100 as my comparison for a week.  I may very well be in a much larger and nicer unit when in a timeshare, however I am not a person that pays $6k for a week anywhere.  If I used $6k a week as my measuring-stick, owning a timeshare would always come out _far_ ahead.


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## ahdah (Nov 27, 2021)

drlee said:


> Interesting analysis. Our view of our timeshare is based on a differeent set of criteria. (We were never going to buy a timeshare). But we found a place we loved, and wanted to return for vacation, so we bought an every other year (week) in Maui. We have since added to our portfolio, owning a total of four weeks there, with three of them being two bedroom units, so we can lock off and stay up to seven weeks if we want. When we invite people to come join us, the two bedroom units work great, and when it's just us, we have often stayed in the one bedroom units and traded the lockoffs. So since 2002 or so we have come back to Maui every year, and stayed in timeshares elsewhere from coast to coast via intrval trades. From a financial point of view, our first salesperson told us that this is not an investment. It is a commitment to vacationing where we want, and generally when we want. In this particular resort, when we first bought, rack rate at the hotel was $300 a night or so, and it's now $500+ per night. Yes, maintenance fees have increased, but we don't regret the purchase. Some non-financial aspects;
> 1. Guaranteed access to unit size and view (Platinum, ocean view) in season
> 2. A place we love and have no problems returning year after year
> 3. A magnet to draw kids, grandkids and friends for visits
> ...


I agree with you 100%.  We invested in memories and are making wonderful memories for our children and our 6 grandchildren.  If we can't use them, then I am able to rent them on RedWeek because they are platinum weeks at the ocean.


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## Dean (Nov 27, 2021)

marmite said:


> I've seen some TUGgers that have used 10 years (instead of 15), so that is what I generally calculate against.  However, I really compare the cost of ownership to what I personally would _usually_ pay for a vacation, not what the rack-rate or rental cost might be.  i.e. If I usually get a condo on Priceline for $300/night, then I am using $2100 as my comparison for a week.  I may very well be in a much larger and nicer unit when in a timeshare, however I am not a person that pays $6k for a week anywhere.  If I used $6k a week as my measuring-stick, owning a timeshare would always come out _far_ ahead.


I look at it much like I would a risky investment.  I use a 10 yr return of investment plus fees and reasonable inflation, in addition to the TVM/opportunity cost.  For comparison I use private rental prices for the same and/or similar including a condo.  It doesn't have to be windfall savings but it does need to be reasonably close to make sense.  There do tend to be other benefits to owning as has been pointed out but there are also other risks like a SA or a change of one's personal situation even if the numbers made sense up front.  IMO using the rack rates, even discounted, is a fool's comparison.  I've also seen people say they didn't care what it cost or even if it was far more expensive owning but I can't see going into that situation knowing that.


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## easyrider (Nov 27, 2021)

michael13 said:


> The cost of my vacation without timeshare is MF of the timeshare + $2000.00. For example if the typical MF for a 2BR at resort A is 1800/Year, I will pay 3800 to rent a week in that resort.



Every Marriott I have rented has been for not much over the mf. I rented a two bed KoOlina ocean view for about $2,100. Others locations that we rented were priced at just above mf. That is one reason I wouldn't bother buying a Marriott. They are easy to rent.

Bill


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## marmite (Nov 27, 2021)

Dean said:


> There do tend to be other benefits to owning as has been pointed out but there are also other risks like a SA or a change of one's personal situation even if the numbers made sense up front.  IMO using the rack rates, even discounted, is a fool's comparison.  I've also seen people say they didn't care what it cost or even if it was far more expensive owning but I can't see going into that situation knowing that.


Yes, very true. It is good to be able to rent (at least for your M.F.) if there was a circumstance change where you couldn't use (or afford) that week. I really am personally not interested in trying to rent out a week I own either, so want to be very comfortable by making sure my M.F. is well below what I usually pay for a week. 

BTW, what is "SA" in this context please?


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2021)

marmite said:


> BTW, what is "SA" in this context please?



Special Assessment.


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2021)

FWIW, I just reviewed my info on my Westin Kierland week. I banked in 2020 and 2021 and used very few SOs so far from those years so I just estimated for value of those years, but it's currently $135 per night all in assuming the value of my deed is zero if I sold now. If I sold for $13,000 (which I think is fairly close to market value, though it constantly changes) then the nightly average is $95. In either case I'm pleased with these results considering that the majority of my stays have been in Hawaii (in a studio or 1-bed).

BTW, my SDO trades to Hawaii (at the same Westin resorts I use my SOs to exchange to) currently works out to $122 per night (this assumes the deed is free, which is very close to what I paid). So when those exchanges are available, they truly are great deals. I have two more weeks next year with SDO exchanges.


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## little1 (Nov 27, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Do you mean "timeshare" in general, or "Marriot timeshare"?  Big difference.
> 
> I own a WorldMark credits timeshare, similar to Marriot Destination Points; buy-in cost about $3,000-4,000.  Any year I want, I can reserve a week 51 or 52 ski vacation in a 3 bedroom for $1100-1500 at a resort with a free shuttle to the base area.  Comparable rentals are $600+/night on AirBnB, VRBO, etc. with no shuttle.
> 
> Simple calculation.  Yeah, timeshare ownership, even with an ultimate resale value of $0, beats the pants off of renting.



I never paid more than the "net cost" of $1200 for any ski location using Wyndham or WorldMark system (and other systems) for 2-bedroom units. Some of them are ski-in and ski-out. Granted that I only booked the Christmas week 1 year in Lake Tahoe, The Ridge Sierra, for $1,100 for a 2-bedroom unit for 1 week.

I don't own any timeshare.

I have rented Banff/Camore for $600 (2x)
Colorado for $600 (3x)
Lake Tahoe for $550 to $800 (3x)
Park City/Canyon ski-in/ski-out for $1,150 (2x)
Whistler, across from the Olympic Village $1,100 (1x)

Not to mentioned non-skiing areas like
Atlantis (Bahama) for $1,100 (1x)
Lone Pine, AZ for $600 (1x)
Big Bear Lake, CA for $350 (1x)

To name a few....................

I think you and *michael13 *are way over-valued the "saving" or the true cost of timeshare ownership.

My 20+ years of renting from existing timeshare owners has been:  my rental price has been consistently less than the maintenance fee paid by the owners for the same resorts.

Sincerely.....


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## PcflEZFlng (Nov 27, 2021)

My ROI situation is somewhat unique, since my preferred season is low or shoulder. It was eye-opening when I finally compared numbers a couple of years ago. I was paying MFs for three TS contracts, but since MFs don't vary by season (Platinum and Gold owners pay the same), I realized it was more cost-effective for me to rent, especially since I could often get entire weeks at my preferred resorts for as a little as $300 via exchange company getaways, during my preferred seasons. I divested my contracts.


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## sdhakala7 (Nov 27, 2021)

I did this analysis and published something on TUG in the late 1990s.  


The theoretically "correct" method is more complex and requires a lot of assumptons:
First, your timeshare will not likely hold it value.  As we can see, the resale market is not very good right now and really has not been very good since 2007.  Even in a trade-up or with a points unit (best chance for holding value) bought on resale, you will lose money over time.  Thus, the proper analysis would be to amortize the purchase (assuming you paid cash) at about an 8% rate (net after tax return for a cyclical luxury equity  investment) over say a 20 year period (assuming no salvage value).  

Second, maintenance fees will appreciate over time for at least inflation plus some additional amount (usually about 0.5% to 1.0%) because construction, property and labor costs tend to rise faster than inflation (assume about a 2.5% to even 3.0% inflation rate).  There may be a special assessment depending on the unit, if older or if vulnerable to weather or natural disasters (even if some insurance). [The maintenance fees on our main timeshare have gone from $640 per year in the late 1990s to $1200 now because of two changes in ownership and the newer owners putting the units in a large pool that includes more premium resorts with premium services.  Not really happy, nor are most of the older owners because the accounting is not transparent and the value does not show up at our home resorts.]

Calculate the annual payments required and then discount all future payments at an 8% annual discount rate in order to arrive at a 20 year cost of ownership and average annual cost in current dollars.  

Third, inevitably you will not always use your week or points efficiently unless you have a lot of flexibility to travel.  [I found we really realized only 5.5 to 6 days equivalent a year for the week I purchased due to being locked into a fixed week or having to exchange it.  In the end, the unit was worthwhile because our resort has had generous bonus time opportunities and "investor's meetings" which meant we often realized 8 to 9 days a year (some not premium time) for about 23 years now, except the past two years.  We are now just before retirement time and having to combine and extend points due to Covid and work but our son-in-law and daughter will be able to use some of our banked weeks with RCI.]  

Then figure out what you would pay for an alternative quality vacation each year for 20 years based on the average number of days you likely will actually utilize each year.  Consider that you can choose more flexibly when to book times and use for shorter periods and adjust for the quality of the unit you own.  [For us, having purchased an older resale standard unit and mid rated resort, our value is probably $200 per day increasing each year for inflation plus about 0.5%.]  Figure out the cost of that for 20 years discounting future purchases.  That is the alternative opportunity cost.  

The above is technically a more "correct" way to evaluate the consideration.  If you have heirs and long-time ability to afford and use, then you may assume some "salvage" value based on expected continued use adjusted for inflation.  Similarly, you should assume some salvage value if you purchase a unit in a flexible points system with an established resort system and a good location.  

Frankly, the math is not ever favorable for timeshare purchases at retail (timeshare presentations) and even worse for those who purchase on credit.  But the math can be really compelling if you shop wisely in the resale market and buy towards the lower end.   [We bought a 1980s standard timeshare but at a decent location in the 1990s.  We recovered in use value net of maintenance fees the purchase price in about five to six years.  But we paid only $2,750 at the time and used every time and even used some bonus time half the years.]

The math for purchasing an older fixed week at a very low price or close to zero price but then paying the fees and converting the fixed week into a points week for a fee or when offered a "best" offer requiring purchasing a certain amount of additional points can be sometimes worthwhile simply because you gain "use" value from the flexibility and resale/salvage value from the points system conversion (especially if the fixed week has no resale value and marginal use value relative to the maintenance fees).  [We just made that decision because our resort system is aggressively selling existing owners on conversions for free with additional purchases of points at a discounted price.  Our original deed limited which resorts we could travel and exchange for.  So, we gained access to the entire system and points we can use on week-days with our flexible work schedule.  With Covid, it helped them keep some sales people and generate activity.  We had to have time and play the game to get the best price. They threw in an extra year of points and some bonus time privileges as well to make the math work for us just barely.  Pretty funny sitting there doing all the math to figure it all out.]  

-----

There is a simpler but less accurate way to estimate.   1. Figure out what the amortization would be annually for a 20 year payment (use a mortgage amortization calculator) on the purchase amount (less salvage value if reasonable) with a net interest rate of around 8%  minus inflation, say 5%.  That is the annual opportunity cost of the money pad net of appreciation of the value of the unit.  Even if you assume salvage value will be $15,000 on an initial purchase of $15,000, the annual net cost of the upfront payment would be about $750 per annum.  

2. Estimate the annual maintenance fee for the coming year. Say $1100.

3.  Add #1 plus #2 to arrive at the total cost of ownership.  That is $1850

4.  Compare that to the value of the equivalent annual vacation days each year and discount for the reduced flexibility and risk of not being able to use the points. (Most people do not use all their weeks or points in a timely manner.).  For a quality time share system, good location, and a resale purchase, that might be on average 5 days per year at $350 to $400 a night (or more).  So, the value would be $1750 to $2000.  That $15,000 purchase on resale would be just about a break-even investment.  But for a standard unit, that might be worth $200 per night or about $1000 per year and that resale price is just not worthwhile.  
----

Note:  I value businesses and business assets for a living and have actually valued timeshare resorts from an investment perspective as well as ownership units.


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## little1 (Nov 27, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I just reviewed my info on my Westin Kierland week. I banked in 2020 and 2021 and used very few SOs so far from those years so I just estimated for value of those years, but it's currently $135 per night all in assuming the value of my deed is zero if I sold now. If I sold for $13,000 (which I think is fairly close to market value, though it constantly changes) then the nightly average is $95. In either case I'm pleased with these results considering that the majority of my stays have been in Hawaii (in a studio or 1-bed).
> 
> BTW, my SDO trades to Hawaii (at the same Westin resorts I use my SOs to exchange to) currently works out to $122 per night (this assumes the deed is free, which is very close to what I paid). So when those exchanges are available, they truly are great deals. I have two more weeks next year with SDO exchanges.



My stay at Wyndham timeshare in Oahu for 5 days (3 years ago) was $500 (+ resort fee, I remembered it to be around $30 per day) for an 1-bedroom unit.
I don't own timeshare. I rent them from existing owners.


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## little1 (Nov 27, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Every Marriott I have rented has been for not much over the mf. I rented a two bed KoOlina ocean view for about $2,100. Others locations that we rented were priced at just above mf. That is one reason I wouldn't bother buying a Marriott. They are easy to rent.
> 
> Bill



I totally agree with Bill and have the same experience. With Marriott, I paid about MF or slightly above. With other systems, 50% to 100% of MF, and rarely I pay more than MF. 

The advantage for me is that I don't need to book 12 or 13 months in advance to ensure that I get the week that I want. I normally will plan about 3 months in advance to get a good deal. However, I do need to be flexible with the week.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 27, 2021)

little1 said:


> I totally agree with Bill and have the same experience. With Marriott, I paid about MF or slightly above. With other systems, 50% to 100% of MF, and rarely I pay more than MF.
> 
> The advantage for me is that I don't need to book 12 or 13 months in advance to ensure that I get the week that I want. I normally will plan about 3 months in advance to get a good deal. However, I do need to be flexible with the week.


You would still be better off buying resale for the guarantee.  And resale Marriott is reasonably priced and gives you a lot of choices through exchange.


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## marmite (Nov 27, 2021)

PcflEZFlng said:


> My ROI situation is somewhat unique, since my preferred season is low or shoulder. It was eye-opening when I finally compared numbers a couple of years ago. I was paying MFs for three TS contracts, but since MFs don't vary by season (Platinum and Gold owners pay the same), I realized it was more cost-effective for me to rent, especially since I could often get entire weeks at my preferred resorts for as a little as $300 via exchange company getaways, during my preferred seasons. I divested my contracts.


You're right, the low and shoulder season travel really changes the value of the week. For many years I was tied to the kids school-schedule and would go to Palm Desert in summer.  If I would have payed attention to the price (and availability) of Getaways, I would have learned pretty quickly that those weeks weren't worth the M.F. I was paying on them (to be trading them into the desert in summer of all times!). I am trying to utilize Getaways more often when I am travelling in the off-season and many weeks are an absolute bargain.

A lot of the math people do is also based on staying a 'top' week in the resort they bought, which there is nothing wrong with if that is their plan and how they use it.  When I owned DVC, I always used it within their system (never trading out), so it was pretty clear cut when I looked at the numbers.  However, for the 10+ years I have owned a Vistana lock-off, I have never once stayed there.  It is only a 'vehicle' to get me somewhere else.  That 'somewhere' is mostly resorts with M.F.'s that far exceed my little SDO. 

It actually makes it difficult for me to find somewhere that I think is _worth it _to own and occupy, as generally those properties I am attracted to are newer, more expensive to purchase and have higher maintenance fees (i.e. Marriott/Vistana Hawaii weeks, Hyatt, Four Seasons etc.). I find there is plenty of value using II, but can hardly make that part of a ROI scenario. I don't know how to calculate value on that, other than to look at the cost of the week I am trading, vs. the cost of the week I am trading into... which means it would be fluctuating year-to-year depending on what I traded into and what my fees were.  

My experience is closer to that of @Ken555, I can easily look at what my nightly rate is of what I own and it IS really that low. This year I calculated my costs to be $114 a night in a 2 bedroom (Hawaii being my most frequent destination). That is with considering an upcharge of $100 for the unit-size increase, trade fees and my II membership all-in. Plenty of people are still getting trades into Vistana and Marriott (or other Hawaii) without having priority as well -- they probably can even pay less per night as @little1 posted.

I always buy something that I think I can at least give away on TUG at the end, and never actually pretend it's an asset. Works for me despite my math making a lousy-looking spreadsheet.


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2021)

little1 said:


> My stay at Wyndham timeshare in Oahu for 5 days (3 years ago) was $500 (+ resort fee, I remembered it to be around $30 per day) for an 1-bedroom unit.
> I don't own timeshare. I rent them from existing owners.



Wyndham is not Westin.


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## skimeup (Nov 27, 2021)

I think it is very variable because for some folks, staying at a high end resort is essential and for others (like myself) I love to be in a high end resort but mostly I'd like to be able to afford to stay someplace that I want to visit.  My first timeshare was at Inn at the Opera, across the street from the opera house and a block away from the symphony in San Francisco.  For what is essentially a two bedroom , two bath unit, my inital cost was about $3700.  My MF has gone from some $650 to $1400 since then, so about $200 a night now, which is shared by whatever other opera nut comes with me.  

The 1&2 BR units are virtually  unavailable for rental, but if you could see one online, it would list during music season for about $500 per night.  So I get to walk a half block to the opera, stay in a place with a nice kitchenette and great breakfast, for far less than I would pay for a decent hotel room in a safe place.  Basically I could not afford to stay there even with someone splitting the cost with me.  So have I just saved some $30, 000 over the 20 years or have I stayed in a place I could not otherwise afford?  I paid an embarrassingly low price for my Hyatt in Carmel, which I think offsets the greater MF for the unit - maybe the highest MF for a ts in the Hyatt system.  But I can stay in a 2BR Marriott trade and a studio as well for the points by trading through Interval.  Again, getting to New York, Boston, and Washington DC - as well as Palm Desert, etc, and staying in very nice places - mostly with kitchenettes or kitchens.  Or trading within Hyatt made it affordable for me and my relatives to spend a week at Key West.  The cost factor has worked extremely well for me, but I think it is a very personal calculation - not something you can plug into a formula.  I've never not used my time because I can always deposit or rent it, wherever I own.  

I conclude that the biggest factor when I discuss timeshares with others is the fact that you have to spend a LOT of time planning things out ahead of time in order to get the reservations you want,  especially if you are trying to string together several desirable weeks to keep airfare down.  I am retired now and able to spend the planning time and go when the kids are  in school.  Such a difference!


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## frank808 (Nov 28, 2021)

marmite said:


> You're right, the low and shoulder season travel really changes the value of the week. For many years I was tied to the kids school-schedule and would go to Palm Desert in summer. If I would have payed attention to the price (and availability) of Getaways, I would have learned pretty quickly that those weeks weren't worth the M.F. I was paying on them (to be trading them into the desert in summer of all times!). I am trying to utilize Getaways more often when I am travelling in the off-season and many weeks are an absolute bargain.
> 
> A lot of the math people do is also based on staying a 'top' week in the resort they bought, which there is nothing wrong with if that is their plan and how they use it. When I owned DVC, I always used it within their system (never trading out), so it was pretty clear cut when I looked at the numbers. However, for the 10+ years I have owned a Vistana lock-off, I have never once stayed there. It is only a 'vehicle' to get me somewhere else. That 'somewhere' is mostly resorts with M.F.'s that far exceed my little SDO.
> 
> ...


For my 2br stays here at Marriott Ko Olina I am paying about $650 a week + $118 to upgrade a studio to 2br + $159 trade fee and $45 lock off fee. Will even include the $112 a year platinum II fee so for 40 weeks a year about $3. My cost for a week at MKO is about $975 ($139/night). If using the more expensive Harbour Lake units, the cost is about $1075 ($153/night) per week in a 2br unit using a studio trade. Using a 1br unit it will be $59 cheaper a week, about $8 per day less.

Can't find a 2br unit on Oahu for $153 a night. Heck a hotel room will run you more than that nightly here.

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


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## pedro47 (Nov 28, 2021)

The true cost of owning a timeshare cannot always be measured in dollars. IMHO
I measure my timeshare ownership in quality vacation spent with my family and friends.


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## bogey21 (Nov 28, 2021)

This whole discussion is appropriately focused on those desiring high end accommodations.  For those who are willing to accept less and are primarily looking for location and possibly specific time frames the calculus is a whole lot different.  What you do is buy Fixed Weeks at well-run Independents for between $0 and $1,000 and relatively low MFs knowing that they will have zero-dollar value when you are done with them.  This worked for me during my last 7-10 years of Timesharing.  Sure, you give up quality but save a ton of money...

George


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## marmite (Nov 28, 2021)

frank808 said:


> Can't find a 2br unit on Oahu for $153 a night. Heck a hotel room will run you more than that nightly here.


Also less than a fish dinner for two ...   And honestly, if you gave me a budget of a $153 a night in Oahu, it would still be a 3* hotel room at best. A far cry from staying at Ko Olina.


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## davidvel (Nov 28, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> The true cost of owning a timeshare cannot always be measured in dollars. IMHO
> I measure my timeshare ownership in quality vacation spent with my family and friends.


You can have the same quality vacation spent with family and friends, whether you own or pay cash.  People are talking about how you get the SAME vacation for less cost.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 28, 2021)

Everything has been covered on both sides. I find that there are few timeshares that rent for much above their MF apart from SOME places in Hawaii and NC vs renting from an owner on Redweek and particular event weeks. It depends from resort to resort but some timeshares are worth owning, you just have to research the market first.


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## kanerf (Nov 28, 2021)

This formula does work at DVC where most of the timeshares have gone up in value over the years unlike other timeshares.  I bought 150 points at BRV for $90 a point several years ago and can easily sell them for $115 a point right now, a $25 per point profit.


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## boraxo (Nov 28, 2021)

I don't really understand the calculations or where you get the $2k per year for the timeshare cost (the time value of your purchase price at 8%?)

But as others have noted it is a risky to assume that you will recoup 100% of your purchase price on resale (Disney is an exception but I hate everything Disney), and also you need factor annual increase in maintenance fees which go up even without inflation and will likely be worse now as labor costs are shooting up.

The "not-owning" scenario is a lot higher for me. 2BR typically rent for minimum of $500 per night and go as high as $800 per night, so I would be looking at $3500-5600 per week. But owners don't rent for less than one week, and with children in school I am typically looking for 2-4 nights over a long weekend. So timeshare rental is not really an option for me. On AirBnb I'm likely to pay $400-500 per night (incl. taxes, cleaning, fees etc) for a lesser non-timeshare property. Hotel rooms typically run at least $500 per night for 2 hotel rooms + bogus resort fees and parking (without living room, kitchen etc.)

In my case the lost earnings (8%) on my initial investment is $280 and I pay $1500 maintenance. Worst case scenario the value goes to zero over 10 years lifespan then the cost is +$350.  But of course I may hold it longer and the resale market is decent.

This year I "traded" my ski week for 9 nights during ski season, so I'm pretty happy with my ROI.



marmite said:


> I've seen some TUGgers that have used 10 years (instead of 15), so that is what I generally calculate against.  However, I really compare the cost of ownership to what I personally would _usually_ pay for a vacation, not what the rack-rate or rental cost might be.  i.e. If I usually get a condo on Priceline for $300/night, then I am using $2100 as my comparison for a week.  I may very well be in a much larger and nicer unit when in a timeshare, however I am not a person that pays $6k for a week anywhere.  If I used $6k a week as my measuring-stick, owning a timeshare would always come out _far_ ahead.



That sounds like timeshare sales talk to me. I don't have a "usual" vacation and it is one of the reasons I avoided buying a timeshare until 2020. On our family excursions we rarely spend more than 4-5 nights anywhere. We also rarely visit the same location regularly except for the location we purchased (which is why I bought it!) and rarely the same dates. That said I concur that I would not spend $6k per week anywhere - the closest I came was $3k to rent a villa in Tuscany for a week. Plan to do this in Greece and maybe south of France, too. In my limited experience Interval is useless to trade into these types of locations and the villas are much nicer.



drlee said:


> Some non-financial aspects;
> 1. Guaranteed access to unit size and view (Platinum, ocean view) in season
> 2. A place we love and have no problems returning year after year
> 3. A magnet to draw kids, grandkids and friends for visits
> ...



This is what is often promised. However I don't need a timeshare for 2, 3 and 6, and I have not found 4 to be true (no doubt Maui is among the best for trading, but I would have paid 10x more even on resale, not to mention airfare x 4 every time I visit. For me the savings on room rates, parking, resort fees plus getting twice as much space offsets the hassle of working the system to book the 2-4 night partial weeks that we prefer.


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## marmite (Nov 28, 2021)

I took what @pedro47 said to be an additional 'plus' to the value of ownership.  

His spreadsheet might have a one liner that says  True value of timeshare vacations = priceless!   I like that math.

I can't really afford to take the same vacations in the sheer _quantity_ I do without a timeshare. Being able to add an extra bedroom on an Interval trade for $100 isn't usually possible when renting (is it?). Certainly the M.F. on a 2 bedroom isn't double that of a 1 bedroom, yet buying a lock-off gives a lot of flexibility (especially for years you want to rent it out). Those are a lot of different comparisons you could try to make on a spreadsheet.  Many of us who own have experienced a myriad of benefits because they can get that extra bedroom so cheaply -- it is one of the few benefits that allow me to invite friends and extended family so often.  

I think many of us have also gifted multiple vacation weeks to others, which is something I was never able to do before. Starting with some financial assumptions is always wise (so you don't feel like you just made the most terrible financial decision ever), but ultimately how you actually use your ownership over its lifetime will determine the value. 

@kanerf  As for my old Disney BCV contract, I definitely made money, but I also bought it when the Canadian $ was at par (and sold when it wasn't!).  If I had a crystal ball I would have bought _many_ more points than I did back then!


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## l0410z (Nov 28, 2021)

Let us look backwards.  Cost of a timeshare aside, I can say with 100 percent certainty, owning a timeshare saved me  money than if I didn’t own it.   I owned the Monarch at Sea Pines since 1996.  The Monarch had an owners website that listed MF's from the time it was built. From  1996 until I sold this year, I paid a total of 25,000 The per year cost was about 970 per year.     In 1995, I rented this unit for about 1,000 before buying it in  1996.  The MF was about 400.  So rental was about 250% of MF.   The last 6 years I rented my Monarch at an average of about 2750 and my MF averaged about 1500  or about 85% above MF.   So while MF is going up faster than rentals, it is still a healthy profit.

The cost of my July Oceanfront Monarch  in 1996 was 13,000.  this included all closing costs.  I sold it for 18,400 this year.   I will not look at the return of investment because I think it complicates the discussion and the last 13 years a dart thrown at a newspaper could have gotten a return that historically is not accurate nor sustainable.  Also I once owned Bear Sterns and MCI at one point, so  though I am a genius in recent years, who wasn't.

Let us now look forward.  To quote the infamous Mona Lisa Vito in My Cousin Vinny, “ * It’s a bullshit question, it’s impossible to answe*r”
I will say that if you purchase a resale unit that you enjoy going to, rents well and/or trades well it will  retain the price you paid.     I sold three units this year (2 Monarch's and an EOY Grand Chateau) and purchased  two (Grande Ocean and 3 bedroom annual Grand Chateau).  I am looking for another Grande Ocean.   How I use my weeks now would require too lengthy an explanation, but I will say I rent to get a good return on my MF (now MGO)  so  I can travel outside of timeshares with my wife and  I trade my MGC to travel with family.  I purchased again  because it is cost effective for me.     I know it is not mathematical but I could make up assumptions that could justify whatever position I would take.  I would rather  use my gut and experience.

Added after original post.
I will say that even thought for me owing is more cost effective, it takes  more work than renting from an owner. I can understand some not wanting to do that work.  Summer HHI commands a premium above MF and as long as that continues, for me that work is worth it no matter if I rent it or use it.    I also did not include when life gets in the way.  It happens but having a unit that rents well minimizes the impact.  In 2021 my kids could not make the planned week.  I rented my unit and rented another week from an owner.


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## DRH90277 (Nov 28, 2021)

I'm in agreement with these most recent posts about timeshare rental being the low cost alternative to use.  I think you will always find ownership through resale or through a developer purchase to be more expensive than renting.  I must add the purchase of points from a developer is absolutely the most expensive approach to use.  Simply put, a rental at or near the maintenance fee will always be the least expensive - if you can find what you want.  But high demand Marriott properties will rent for about twice the maintenance fees.   

Another reason to rent is that you can usually find the exact week you want quite easily with proper timing of the rental effort.  

If someone must buy, I suggest they buy resale at a property "they like enough to use frequently" and, in a good season.  This will be on the low end of the cost scale as the cost will be the annual maintenance fee plus some amortization of the low purchase cost.  We chose this option for our purchases as we and our children will use the specific weeks for many years. We chose platinum properties at Newport Coast in So CA and at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach, SC and they are used every year (but can be rented easily).  Also, large parts of our families live within easy driving distances to these locations.   

Marriott sales plays the "imagine game" to entice you to the flexibility of visiting so many different properties across the world.  We could probably "imagine" a bit more.


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## frank808 (Nov 28, 2021)

boraxo said:


> That said I concur that I would not spend $6k per week anywhere - the closest I came was $3k to rent a villa in Tuscany for a week. Plan to do this in Greece and maybe south of France, too. In my limited experience Interval is useless to trade into these types of locations and the villas are much nicer.



Not trading through Interval, but Hilton Grand Vacations has villas in Tuscany. Actually HGVC has a few locations in Europe I will be visiting. MVC does has Disneyland Paris location. 

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## marmite (Nov 29, 2021)

boraxo said:


> That sounds like timeshare sales talk to me. I don't have a "usual" vacation and it is one of the reasons I avoided buying a timeshare until 2020. On our family excursions we rarely spend more than 4-5 nights anywhere. We also rarely visit the same location regularly except for the location we purchased (which is why I bought it!) and rarely the same dates. That said I concur that I would not spend $6k per week anywhere - the closest I came was $3k to rent a villa in Tuscany for a week. Plan to do this in Greece and maybe south of France, too. In my limited experience Interval is useless to trade into these types of locations and the villas are much nicer.



Ouch!  Not timeshare sales talk at all. I am dramatically reducing the value of my vacations of what I compare cost of ownership to.  I was using $300 a night as an example, but that is actually my 'personal' spending habit for a vacation when I am doing a hotel stay (in North America at least).  I do a week and _usually_ spend $300 a night.  That is a fact for me and me only.  So when I stay for less than $300 a night in a timeshare that I consider at least as nice as the hotel I was going to stay in, that is how I see my 'savings'.  Even if I dropped that down to $150 a night, I would STILL see savings, but perhaps not enough to justify the risks associated with ownership (and the effort for booking).

As for spending 4-5 nights somewhere, I have often ended or started my timeshare vacations on a day that suits me, cutting a day or two off the week.  Even in those situations, I have found a shorter stay has still been less expensive (trading my owned week) than if I were to rent using the hotel websites.

I agree that there are locations I choose not to trade into, just as you have made plans to rent villas in Europe.  Timeshare travel is just one of several options, and for most of the world outside of North America, I don't use my timeshare.  Some do (and know what the gems on II are), but I am pretty particular on the quality-level of my accommodations, and in many cases the selection in international destinations are a step down from what I'm good with (Marriott and Anantara perhaps being the exceptions), and often outside the cities I want to go to. So far the only International destination that worked out well for me was Bangkok, but that was a Marriott and probably one of my top timeshare stays ever. A timeshare stay does not work at all when you are hopping around every 4 days to a new city or country, I certainly wouldn't be able to pull that off using II, so that is probably where II is also 'useless' as you said.

I work, have 8 weeks of vacation a year, our family is largely into world travel (minus this pandemic of course) which includes land vacations and cruising. Half those weeks though (which are what I have labelled my 'usual' vacation where timeshares are concerned), are spent travelling in the US, mostly Hawaii, California and Arizona which are _great_ for a timeshare stay if you are ON the beaten track and not wanting to stay in the smaller towns. I expect that when I retire, my travel pattern will change and my flexibility will increase (making the use of Getaways or AC more possible). It definitely comes down to a personal examination of how you (and the OP of course) like to travel and if it is a fit for you and your family.

Timesharing is not for everyone or every vacation by any means. There are a plenty of good reasons _not_ to own a timeshare and to be cautious when getting one.


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## bogey21 (Nov 29, 2021)

l0410z said:


> The cost of my July Oceanfront Monarch  in 1996 was 13,000.  this included all closing costs.  I sold it for 18,400 this year.



What is it about Monarch?  I also sold my resale Monarch Week at a large profit a number of years ago...

George


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## l0410z (Nov 29, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> What is it about Monarch?  I also sold my resale Monarch Week at a large profit a number of years ago...
> 
> George



I know it is an older and smaller,  but the Monarch has a very loyal ownership from generation to generation.    I think it is because it is  fixed week and seeing the same families year after year reinforces pride of ownership.    I believe the end of June  through the end of July is peak timeframe and the Oceanfront units on floors 3 to 5 have the best unobstructed direct ocean front views , with only  maybe 15 units.  Oceanfront units and they do not come on the market often.  The old supply and demand.  The fact they are fixed units ensure you get the same view forever.   Back in 1996 it was much harder to sell a unit than it is today so this is why I got a good price.  The person who just purchased the oceanfront   already owned oceanfront and was waiting for years for one to come on the market in July for this week.  I was surprised I got that much but I had a number of interested buyers. 

My other unit I sold for 7400.  i bought it for  5000.    It was unit 4 units away but not ocean front.  It was for the 3rd week in August that while a premier week, is not in as high demand. I just took the first buyer above 7K because I already purchased the Grande Ocean.  

As much as I really enjoyed my ownership at the Monarch, , sleeping six is too much of a challenge.


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## grupp (Nov 29, 2021)

l0410z said:


> I know it is an older and smaller,  but the Monarch has a very loyal ownership from generation to generation.    I think it is because it is  fixed week and seeing the same families year after year reinforces pride of ownership.    I believe the end of June  through the end of July is peak timeframe and the Oceanfront units on floors 3 to 5 have the best unobstructed direct ocean front views , with only  maybe 15 units.  Oceanfront units and they do not come on the market often.  The old supply and demand.  The fact they are fixed units ensure you get the same view forever.   Back in 1996 it was much harder to sell a unit than it is today so this is why I got a good price.  The person who just purchased the oceanfront   already owned oceanfront and was waiting for years for one to come on the market in July for this week.  I was surprised I got that much but I had a number of interested buyers.
> 
> My other unit I sold for 7400.  i bought it for  5000.    It was unit 4 units away but not ocean front.  It was for the 3rd week in August that while a premier week, is not in as high demand. I just took the first buyer above 7K because I already purchased the Grande Ocean.
> 
> As much as I really enjoyed my ownership at the Monarch, , sleeping six is too much of a challenge.



I think you are correct about the loyal following and fixed weeks adding to the value. I sold my summer oceanfront a few years back to the person who owned the week right before mine in the same unit. I wasn't looking to sell, but he wanted consecutive weeks and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.


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## CO skier (Nov 29, 2021)

little1 said:


> I never paid more than the "net cost" of $1200 for any ski location using Wyndham or WorldMark system (and other systems) for 2-bedroom units. Some of them are ski-in and ski-out. Granted that I only booked the Christmas week 1 year in Lake Tahoe, The Ridge Sierra, for $1,100 for a 2-bedroom unit for 1 week.
> 
> I don't own any timeshare.
> 
> ...


It is 13 months until Christmas/New Years 2022.  Plenty of time to plan.  Show me a few ads for a 7-night vacation in a 3 bedroom/2 or 3 bath condo that I can rent for less than $2,000 that has a free shuttle that is 10 minutes or less to the base, and I will concede the point that renting is as good as owning.  With my timeshare, I know I can book a certain week every year, if I want, and exactly what is will cost a year in advance.  Search time is less than 10 minutes.

I use my timeshare to stay in 1 bedrooms during the off-season at resorts with swimming pool, hot tubs, clubshouse, etc. for $360 for the week (about $50/night) -- total cost with no additional cost for housekeeping, like many rentals.  Pinetop, AZ, St. George, UT, Steamboat Springs, CO when the leaves change, just to name a few available to me using my timeshare.

That is how I value timeshare ownership.  I know it saves me thousands of dollars every year versus renting and the hassle of searching for a vacation rental.


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## Dean (Nov 29, 2021)

IMO the financial aspect needs to make sense, it's a requisite in my view.  But there are other benefits and reasons to own and also not to own.  Control of the reservation is one another is an upgraded vacation for many compared to what they would/could do on cash.  For me personally forcing me to vacation and dream has been one of the best benefits of owning timeshares.


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## frank808 (Nov 29, 2021)

I actually enjoy the planning a year out and the anticipation of my next vacation. I like the fact I can look and book airfare when it is at the lowest price I think it will be. I have to fly anytime I go for a vacation.  It is like booking a cruise a couple years in advance.  I look forward that I will be on board a ship for a week or month on this date.  Same as Iooking forward to using the TS weeks on vacation.


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## bogey21 (Nov 30, 2021)

Back when I owned a bunch of low cost Fixed Weeks at various Resorts I often used less than the full 7 days.  The savings I got from manipulating air fares and car rentals often covered much of my MFs....

George


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## SueDonJ (Dec 1, 2021)

Sometimes TUG makes me feel like we're doing timeshares all wrong.

We took our first vacation to Hilton Head and knew almost immediately that we'd want to return year after year. While staying at an oceanfront Windsor Court condo rental in Palmetto Dunes we met with a real estate agent who quickly dashed our dreams of buying an oceanfront property and suggested that timeshares might be a good fit. At the time I'd been following Disboards for years and had started reading TUG so, not too timeshare-savvy but certainly enough to know the different brands and that an external resale market existed. We visited SurfWatch during its construction phase with a current issue of a timeshare resale magazine in hand, loved everything about it and bought two weeks direct because it was too new to have any intervals in the resale market. A year or two later Don found his favorite during a stay at an oceanfront Barony unit when we learned that it's the only newer Marriott on the island with all oceanfront-designated units directly facing the ocean, so we again bought direct because no resale intervals existed. We knew enough about exchanging to know that we couldn't rely on it to get into these two particular resorts in particular view units, and really the only consideration we gave to the financial aspect was whether our expected vacation budget would support the purchase and ongoing MF's. <shrug>

Years later when the DC came on the scene we were happy to learn that buying in would give us more exchange value for our particular Weeks (especially the SW 3BR's) than II ever had and, that the introductory pricing favored our direct purchases, so we jumped in feet first immediately. Add more years still and our decision to buy a home and eventually settle on Hilton Head Island, and the DC still is more favorable than II for our purposes.

And like others have said, prior to that first visit to HHI we hadn't ever made a commitment to vacation/travel regularly - in our early years because we couldn't afford it and later because Don's work schedule didn't allow it. The island itself convinced us to make the commitment to at least yearly visits; the timeshares forced us to make those visits. Until he retired the timeshare layouts also allowed him to work comfortably during our visits, some of which we never would have been able to take if he couldn't work while away.


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## Steve Fatula (Dec 1, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> Sometimes TUG makes me feel like we're doing timeshares all wrong.



I don't think that's wrong at all.  For some people, it appears the only thing that matters to them is precise financial formulas and it has to make sense to them financially (only) else it's not a wise deal. That's ok. For others, the non financial aspects are at least as important if not more in some cases (I fit into this category). Those who do not understand that way of thinking will not understand how someone can buy x when it's not the cheapest way (and compare dissimilar ownership such as resale week vs enrolled week). Both are fine ways of thinking. What matters most is what makes sense to you. There are benefits to ownership levels that I value extremely highly. To some, they see that as a meh and value those things at $0. Some believe renting is the only way, which is also fine, for them. For some of us, never desire to rent so any comparison of rental rates is meaningless to me. There's so many ways to look at timeshares, I don't think any of them are wrong really.


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## TravelTime (Dec 2, 2021)

PcflEZFlng said:


> My ROI situation is somewhat unique, since my preferred season is low or shoulder. It was eye-opening when I finally compared numbers a couple of years ago. I was paying MFs for three TS contracts, but since MFs don't vary by season (Platinum and Gold owners pay the same), I realized it was more cost-effective for me to rent, especially since I could often get entire weeks at my preferred resorts for as a little as $300 via exchange company getaways, during my preferred seasons. I divested my contracts.



One nice thing about points programs is they take seasonality into account. You can get better deals (lower point cost) when you travel in off seasons. For example, the cost in points to stay at the Ritz Carlton St Thomas with a direct ocean view in a 2BR can be about half or less than peak season weeks. Surpisingly, the point cost to stay at Ritz Carlton St Thomas in the summer is close to the point cost to stay at Marriott Frenchman’s Reef. I do not see why anyone would pick Marriott over Ritz Carlton given the negligible cost difference.


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## PcflEZFlng (Dec 2, 2021)

TravelTime said:


> One nice thing about points programs is they take seasonality into account. You can get better deals (lower point cost) when you travel in off seasons. For example, the cost in points to stay at the Ritz Carlton St Thomas with a direct ocean view in a 2BR can be about half or less than peak season weeks.


Quite true. Traveling during low season can even yield an extra week at a given resort compared to, say one single week during high season for the same number of points. Depending, of course, on the resort, its location, and the point spread between seasons.


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## bnoble (Dec 2, 2021)

Steve Fatula said:


> For some people, it appears the only thing that matters to them is precise financial formulas and it has to make sense to them financially (only) else it's not a wise deal. That's ok. For others, the non financial aspects are at least as important if not more in some cases


Oddly enough, I think I am both of these people. I do care about the dollars-and-cents part, and it does have to "make sense" to go through with something. It doesn't have to be the absolute cheapest option, but it does have to be a "good" option.

On the other hand, I can guarantee that I have not "saved" money by owning timeshares---because I am traveling much more than I would have otherwise. The use-it-or-lose-it annual commitment is a forcing function that helps me prioritize travel as important rather than fitting it it around everything else. To me, that's the *real* value of ownership.


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## Ken555 (Dec 2, 2021)

bnoble said:


> Oddly enough, I think I am both of these people. I do care about the dollars-and-cents part, and it does have to "make sense" to go through with something. It doesn't have to be the absolute cheapest option, but it does have to be a "good" option.
> 
> On the other hand, I can guarantee that I have not "saved" money by owning timeshares---because I am traveling much more than I would have otherwise. The use-it-or-lose-it annual commitment is a forcing function that helps me prioritize travel as important rather than fitting it it around everything else. To me, that's the *real* value of ownership.



With few notable exceptions, I’m definitely in this camp as well. I know what it costs to have a nice place to stay on a nightly basis, and I’m not too particular where I spend that night… so I strive for the most interesting, most relaxing, or whatever I’m most curious about at the time and book it. It may be a timeshare, it may be a hotel (with or without a “free” night on points), it may be a cruise, etc. I track my travel expenses and I know the average cost per night so if I find a good deal I take it and when I don’t, I pass. Timeshares have been a valuable component of my overall travel strategy but I’m not paying a lot more for one over another, within a similar category, without good reason. 

There’s another current thread about California timeshares and I posted I spent a week at one within a block of the ocean in September. It was a great week and I enjoyed it, but the accommodations compared quite poorly to Westin and yet was *more* expensive on a nightly basis. I enjoyed it a lot anyway, as the quality of the resort isn’t always the most important criteria (it rarely is for me, but I’ve generally been able to get nice resorts). 

I’m also with you re the overall cost savings. Timeshares have definitely cost me money, but it’s been money I’ve been happy to spend since it gets me out and about, visiting great places, and generally enjoying myself, usually with friends and family. TUG has been an instrumental reason why I have enjoyed and benefited by timeshares and I thank everyone who has contributed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dean (Dec 2, 2021)

bnoble said:


> Oddly enough, I think I am both of these people. I do care about the dollars-and-cents part, and it does have to "make sense" to go through with something. It doesn't have to be the absolute cheapest option, but it does have to be a "good" option.
> 
> On the other hand, I can guarantee that I have not "saved" money by owning timeshares---because I am traveling much more than I would have otherwise. The use-it-or-lose-it annual commitment is a forcing function that helps me prioritize travel as important rather than fitting it it around everything else. To me, that's the *real* value of ownership.


Exactly.  I want savings, quality, options, flexibility, etc.  But I'm certain I've used up any savings with volume, esp with out family trips.  I too take a big picture approach but also at least consider the reasonableness of an individual option.  For example, I might use reward points for 0.8¢ PP return but not for 0.5¢ and likely will not hold out for only options that give me a full 1¢ PP or more.  I do feel the people that commit to using a timeshare ONLY "because it's already paid for" tend to limit themselves and limit the value they garner from the ownership.


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## little1 (Dec 5, 2021)

CO skier said:


> It is 13 months until Christmas/New Years 2022.  Plenty of time to plan.  Show me a few ads for a 7-night vacation in a 3 bedroom/2 or 3 bath condo that I can rent for less than $2,000 that has a free shuttle that is 10 minutes or less to the base, and I will concede the point that renting is as good as owning.  With my timeshare, I know I can book a certain week every year, if I want, and exactly what is will cost a year in advance.  Search time is less than 10 minutes.
> 
> I use my timeshare to stay in 1 bedrooms during the off-season at resorts with swimming pool, hot tubs, clubshouse, etc. for $360 for the week (about $50/night) -- total cost with no additional cost for housekeeping, like many rentals.  Pinetop, AZ, St. George, UT, Steamboat Springs, CO when the leaves change, just to name a few available to me using my timeshare.
> 
> That is how I value timeshare ownership.  I know it saves me thousands of dollars every year versus renting and the hassle of searching for a vacation rental.



FYI. These deals don't come 12 or 13 months out. And who would want to plan that far ahead if it is not necessary (like when you own a timeshare). I typically get these deal 2 to 4 months out. Last minute deals (<1 month) is cutting it too close.


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## bogey21 (Dec 5, 2021)

Steve Fatula said:


> For some people, it appears the only thing that matters to them is precise financial formulas and it has to make sense to them financially (only) else it's not a wise deal. That's ok. For others, the non financial aspects are at least as important if not more in some cases..



Absolutely true...

George


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