# Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]



## Eric B

An important upcoming system update.





Dear XXXXX Family,We hope your VIP by Wyndham benefits have helped you maximize your Club Wyndham experience. As a valued Club Wyndham Plus member with Gold VIP by Wyndham benefits, it is important that you are aware of an upcoming system update that will provide a more comprehensive view of your membership and support existing VIP by Wyndham program guidelines. This system update will not impact your VIP tier status. An overview of the system changes is outlined below:Update to Your Online ExperienceIn mid-August, we will introduce a new online Benefits Summary, which will enable you to distinguish between points you have purchased directly from Club Wyndham (“VIP Eligible Points”) and points that have been acquired through the third-party resale market (“Non-VIP Eligible Points”). This distinction will help you better understand the points and VIP benefits associated with your membership.

Once this system update takes place, your VIP Eligible Points will continue to unlock the VIP benefits associated with your VIP tier. The system will award VIP benefits only to VIP Eligible Points. As a reminder, in accordance with the VIP by Wyndham program guidelines, VIP benefits are not applicable to Non-VIP Eligible Points.

The VIP benefits that will be available to VIP Eligible Points will include:

  • VIP Suite Upgrade Opt-In  • Points Discounts  • Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority  • Points Deposit - More Time To Extend Points  • More Time To Convert To Maintenance Dollars  • Additional Housekeeping Credits, based on VIP tier  • Complimentary Reservation Transactions, based on VIP tier  • Option To Request Specific Suites  • Early Access To Margaritaville Vacation Club Resorts
With this system enhancement, we will balance your account for the current Use Year and adjust benefits according to whether your reservation was made with VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points. This reconciliation will only apply to reservations in the current Use Year.

As you adjust to this system update we are pleased to offer some options to help you maximize your vacation opportunities. Complimentary points will be deposited into your next Use Year when the system update takes place mid-August. Additionally, from the August system update through Dec. 31, 2021, you will have the option to convert your Non-VIP Eligible Points to maintenance fees or utilize the Points Deposit Feature to move your Non-VIP Eligible Points into a future Use Year.Understanding the Benefits SummaryThe new online Benefits Summary will streamline your view of your individual points and benefits and give you more control over how you use your membership.

Upon booking a resort reservation or making another type of transaction on your Club Wyndham website, you will be able to choose whether you would like to use your VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points ─ you can apply VIP benefits for the reservation(s) where they can have the greatest impact. The Benefits Summary will update automatically to reflect your current points and benefits for each points type.

This new tool will put you in the driver’s seat as you check destinations off your bucket list.

This system update will help enforce a longstanding rule, as well as provide greater transparency into your points and associated benefits, while giving you the control to prioritize your vacations. By better preserving the exclusivity and value of the VIP by Wyndham program, we continue to ensure your VIP tier helps you unlock fantastic benefits and elevate your vacations.

For more information on the Benefits Summary and this system update, please visit your Club Wyndham website, and sign up for an upcoming education session. You may also reach a dedicated support team by calling 844-991-0921.

Sincerely,

Your Club Wyndham Management Team


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## VacayKat

Well - there you go. Wyndham cancels VIP benefits for non developer points


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## Eric B

Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have.  Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.

Some odd points in this email are the promised deposit of complimentary points in the next use year and the extended window for PDF to move non-VIP points to a future year.


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## VacayKat

@ moderators - please delete- was beaten to the punch

_[*Moderator Note*: Threads merged, instead of deleting one, so all responses are saved.] <-- SueDonJ_


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## Free2Roam

It was only a matter of time...

I can only imagine the destruction this system update will cause.


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## VacayKat

And they are BALANCING YOUR ACCOUNT - AKA removing any benefits you think you might have had. This is shitty on their part. Pardon my french, but changing the rules midstride is kicking people in the face. Excellent for folks who have reservations.


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## kanerf

Yes, I saw.  It will really hurt the program.  The price of resales, already in the toilet, will crash even further.  You will be able to buy 500K for $1 and what good will that do?  Sure, I can't take advantage of the so-called VIP benefits, but I can book what I want when I want.


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## Eric B

It will also be interesting to see how they juggle the VIP and non-VIP points that have been used already. I suspect that's why they're giving complimentary points in the next use year.

Guess I'll have to learn how housekeeping credits and reservation transactions work....


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## HitchHiker71

Interesting development to be sure.  If Wyndham is listening - they should consider a limited time opportunity - perhaps between now and 12/31/2021 to allow current VIP owners that also hold resale contracts some type of conversion opportunity to convert resale contracts to VIP developer points (with a contract limit perhaps - such as up to x number of contracts and/or x amount of points), similar to what they have offered via piggyback contracts for example.  I suspect there would be quite a few VIP owners who hold a resale contract or two, that may consider such a conversion, myself included.


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## troy12n

Well, I guess that hammer is dropping... it will be interesting to see how they do housekeeping for those with grandfathered VIP. Specifically if you would have the decision making ability as to which points you use to make specific bookings. 

Example, you are existing Gold VIP and have unlimited HK and Reservations, but have several hundred thousand resale. 

You want to make a bunch of short reservations using your Developer points, and make a couple bigger ones using your resale (which will utilize fewer Reservations and HK).

Will be interesting to see how this plays out, also I assume PIC points transferred over would count toward your VIP benefits


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## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> And they are BALANCING YOUR ACCOUNT - AKA removing any benefits you think you might have had. This is shitty on their part. Pardon my french, but changing the rules midstride is kicking people in the face. Excellent for folks who have reservations.



Surely most people who have been exploiting the fact that Wyndham couldn't separate the benefits by developer/resale knew this day would eventually come.  Lying salesmen aside, I don't think there was any documentation promising to apply VIP benefits to resale points.  It was just there because Wyndham hadn't built in a distinction, and boy has it been exploited over the years.


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Interesting development to be sure.  If Wyndham is listening - they should consider a one time opportunity - perhaps between now and 12/31/2021 to allow current VIP owners that also hold resale contracts some type of conversion opportunity to convert resale contracts to VIP developer points (with a contract limit perhaps - such as up to x number of contracts or x amount of points), similar to what they have offered via piggyback contracts for example.  I suspect there would be quite a few VIP owners who hold a resale contract or two, that may consider such a conversion, myself included.



I'm with you on that one.


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## Ty1on

Eric B said:


> I'm with you on that one.



This would be a good way to mitigate the number of points that would hit the resale market all at once.  I don't think it would affect Wyndham directly in terms of Ovation, for example, because Ovation is all or none, isn't it?


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## Rolltydr

VacayKat said:


> And they are BALANCING YOUR ACCOUNT - AKA removing any benefits you think you might have had. This is shitty on their part. Pardon my french, but changing the rules midstride is kicking people in the face. Excellent for folks who have reservations.


What rules were changed? I was never promised that I would be given VIP benefits for non-developer points. They haven’t changed any rules as far as I can tell. They have developed a way to distinguish from the points that qualify for VIP and those that don’t. Will I be impacted? Yes. Do I have anything to complain about? No. I knew I could lose the benefits on those points at any time.


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## Eric B

I wonder how they will deal with housekeeping credits and reservation transactions for stays that use both VIP and non-VIP points.  Seems like it won't matter all that much for normal stays I make.

Overall, I don't see this greatly impacting my usage based on my usage patterns and minimal rentals.  In any case, my resale contracts are at Bali Hai, where the costs are ~38% lower than CWA anyway, so I can be okay with just using them at 10 months preferentially.


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## Eric B

troy12n said:


> ...
> 
> Will be interesting to see how this plays out, also I assume PIC points transferred over would count toward your VIP benefits



I believe PIC points should continue to count towards VIP benefits and be eligible for most of the VIP benefits.  The exceptions would be the extra time to use Points Deposit since they aren't eligible for Points Deposit now AFAIK.


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## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> This would be a good way to mitigate the number of points that would hit the resale market all at once.  I don't think it would affect Wyndham directly in terms of Ovation, for example, because Ovation is all or none, isn't it?



No, you can use Certified Exit to give back specific contracts and not close out your entire ownership with Wyndham - however it is at Wyndham's discretion and subject to the usual approval process - and the Limited Edition benefit doesn't ever apply.  

I have said in times past that I have wondered whether Wyndham has bigger strategic elements ongoing to recover larger blocks of inventory/points for other programs/purposes tied to the T&L purchase - creating newer types of ownership programs geared more toward newer generations that would be subscription based for example.  I can certainly envision a LOT of VIP owners dumping resale contracts as a result of this change just announced.  If Wyndham continues to offer deedbacks via Certified Exit as a result of this large change announcement - it further cements my assertion that something bigger is on the horizon.


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## Eric B

Further info from the linked website:

Important Information:

When booking using Non-VIP Eligible Points, VIP Eligible Points may be borrowed and any such reservation or transaction will not be eligible for VIP benefits. 
When booking using VIP Eligible Points, Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be borrowed.
Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your Non-VIP Eligible Points.
Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your VIP Eligible Points. 
Existing cancellation policy applies.
Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
When utilizing the Points Deposit Feature for VIP Eligible Points, points will be deposited into a future Use Year and be available as VIP Eligible Points.
When utilizing Points Deposit Feature for Non-VIP Eligible Points, points will be deposited into a future Use Year and be available as Non-VIP Eligible Points.
Complimentary VIP Eligible Points will be made available in your next Use Year following the August release date for this system update.
Options to convert your Non-VIP Eligible Points to maintenance fees or utilize the Points Deposit Feature to move your Non-VIP Eligible Points into a future Use Year will be available mid-August through Dec. 31, 2021, by calling (844) 991-0921.


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## 55plus

Yup, and this will also free up prime  availability and timeframes: https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/resorts/resort-news/new-online-benefit-summary?


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## VacayKat

Rolltydr said:


> What rules were changed? I was never promised that I would be given VIP benefits for non-developer points. They haven’t changed any rules as far as I can tell. They have developed a way to distinguish from the points that qualify for VIP and those that don’t. Will I be impacted? Yes. Do I have anything to complain about? No. I knew I could lose the benefits on those points at any time.


I was. By sales , customer service and owner care,


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## tschwa2

HitchHiker71 said:


> Interesting development to be sure.  If Wyndham is listening - they should consider a limited time opportunity - perhaps between now and 12/31/2021 to allow current VIP owners that also hold resale contracts some type of conversion opportunity to convert resale contracts to VIP developer points (with a contract limit perhaps - such as up to x number of contracts and/or x amount of points), similar to what they have offered via piggyback contracts for example.  I suspect there would be quite a few VIP owners who hold a resale contract or two, that may consider such a conversion, myself included.


To make that worth it to Wyndham I think it would have to be a 1 for 1.  You want to bring in a million resale points, you have to buy a million retail points.  Otherwise "legitimizing" millions of points with a $20,000-40,000 purchase might give them a boost now but wouldn't accomplish what they want it to do.


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## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> Well, I guess that hammer is dropping... it will be interesting to see how they do housekeeping for those with grandfathered VIP. Specifically if you would have the decision making ability as to which points you use to make specific bookings.
> 
> Example, you are existing Gold VIP and have unlimited HK and Reservations, but have several hundred thousand resale.
> 
> You want to make a bunch of short reservations using your Developer points, and make a couple bigger ones using your resale (which will utilize fewer Reservations and HK).
> 
> Will be interesting to see how this plays out, also I assume PIC points transferred over would count toward your VIP benefits



I need to step back and do some analysis as a result of this change, but I fit in the bucket you just outlined.  I have 718k developer points (including PIC contracts), and 689k resale points all from a single large NH CWS contract.  I'm a grandfathered VIPG owner.  I suspect I'll end up using my big block of resale points to make 1-2 large reservations each year for our family vacations (which I usually did via RARP - which I'll no longer be able to do due to this change since VIP benefits won't apply).  I would want to preserve my VIP eligible points for the smaller weekend getaway reservations that we make where I tend to use the VIP discount window and free upgrades available.  

As someone else already said, PIC points have always been VIP eligible since they are counted as developer contracts.  Even if they were to change this - I suspect grandfathering would apply at least for a period of time.


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## Eric B

My biggest complaint is that I will have to update my Wyndham Tracking spreadsheet for these changes.


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## HitchHiker71

tschwa2 said:


> To make that worth it to Wyndham I think it would have to be a 1 for 1.  You want to bring in a million resale points, you have to buy a million retail points.  Otherwise "legitimizing" millions of points with a $20,000-40,000 purchase might give them a boost now but wouldn't accomplish what they want it to do.



It is like-for-like for piggyback contracts as well (1:1), unless they are running a special program and/or receive special permission otherwise.


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## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> Yup, and this will also free up prime  availability and timeframes: https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/resorts/resort-news/new-online-benefit-summary?



Did anyone happen to actually watch the video and/or look at the splash screen graphic: - highlighted in the red rectangle below.  Kinda ironic showing a Rental Points bucket isn't it? 

*

*


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## am1

What the resale value now of resale points?  Once they get more inventory then they can sell it will cost money to get rid of Wyndham contracts.  

I am glad I  no longer a owner even more now.   Too bad for all the people who purchased retail to get VIP for their resale points.  

But this is what some of you wanted.  Wyndham is not doing it for your benefits.


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## snickers104

Looks like a good time for me to buy a resale contract...I've been looking for a midsized CWA for awhile...

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> I was. By sales , customer service and owner care,


It was never in writing. It also was in owners directory that only developer points could be used with VIP benefits.


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## dgalati

?


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## Manzana

Another thing to consider is how will transaction fees be considered when making these.   It is basically having 2 separate accounts which I almost think would be a better Idea and less confusing unless we were able to combine like Hitchikersaid through a 1 time purchase match


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## 9969hi

It is going to be bookkeeping headache  for Wyndham  to try an figure whether a reservation being made purchased points, pic points or non wyndham purchased points is happening in each reservation, they are going to start asking a lot of questions everytime you make a reservation, are you going to stay at this resort and use purchased points or non wyndham points or pic points. This is going to cause a lot of necessity to hire more VCS and the ones we have already often give bad information, not a good situation , I only non Wyndham points on the places I want to go to.


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## 55plus

Eric B said:


> It will also be interesting to see how they juggle the VIP and non-VIP points that have been used already. I suspect that's why they're giving complimentary points in the next use year.


I still don't understand what Wyndham means by, 'complimentary points'?


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## dgalati

?


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## Sandy VDH

Thankfully this doesn't affect me much.  But I am glad that I did not pick up a lot of resale points to get VIP status perks on them.  Big loss of perks for those who did take that approach.  

But we have been talking about Wyndham doing this for time time.  So I am not surprised, I am only surprised it took this long for them to figure out how to implement it.  I figured when they went to the account level totals they could implement the rules easier.  I assume they will keep doing it an account level, and bucket maximums, instead of reverting back to the stupid model that you have to use the 'Right' points to make a reservation.  HGVC is still this way and it drives me crazy having to shuffle points around all the time.


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## kanerf

So, I have already made a bunch of reservations for next year.  I wonder what will happen to those?


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## dgalati

55plus said:


> I still don't understand what Wyndham means by, 'complimentary points'?


Resale


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## dgalati

Another VIP Loophole closed. This should really help availability for owners to book for personal use!


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## 55plus

kanerf said:


> So, I have already made a bunch of reservations for next year.  I wonder what will happen to those?


Same here. I have Christmas thru New Year and Bike Week.


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## Sandy VDH

9969hi said:


> It is going to be bookkeeping headache  for Wyndham  to try an figure whether a reservation being made purchased points, pic points or non wyndham purchased points is happening in each reservation, they are going to start asking a lot of questions everytime you make a reservation, are you going to stay at this resort and use purchased points or non wyndham points or pic points. This is going to cause a lot of necessity to hire more VCS and the ones we have already often give bad information, not a good situation , I only non Wyndham points on the places I want to go to.




I don't think so, if they set up the system the way as a Data Modeler (yes my day job) I think they should have to.  The user generates reservations and each reservations will have certain types of properties (ARP, Discounts, Upgrades) that can be flagged, and then they can check the totals points of those reservations during the booking process to check that you do not exceed the total of points that apply to VIP.  It has some backend calculations to do, but only a bit more buckets than they had before.  They already know which buck if the current year and which ones are saves points from previous years.  So it they built the data base right, it would not be difficult.  Now of course this is Wyndham's IT department, but they have the bucket of points system working fine, as far as I can tell.

Funny thing however, I have yet to get the email.


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## dgalati

9969hi said:


> It is going to be bookkeeping headache  for Wyndham  to try an figure whether a reservation being made purchased points, pic points or non wyndham purchased points is happening in each reservation, they are going to start asking a lot of questions everytime you make a reservation, are you going to stay at this resort and use purchased points or non wyndham points or pic points. This is going to cause a lot of necessity to hire more VCS and the ones we have already often give bad information, not a good situation , I only non Wyndham points on the places I want to go to.


Believe me their IT never screws up maintenance fees I'm sure they can handle the buckets points are used from. Resale points included. 


55plus said:


> Same here. I have Christmas thru New Year and Bike Week.


Were they were booked using discounts and free uprades?


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## Jan M.

I'm going to take this opportunity to do something I try very hard not do even when it's completely justified; which is to say *I TOLD YOU SO!*

I've been saying Wyndham could do this since the Freeze of August 2016 and every one told me it wasn't possible for them to do it. Even though many of us know that the sales people and even the VC's can easily tell what's developer in our accounts and what isn't. I've also been saying it, and again more than once, since the owners meeting in Austin, TX in November 2019. At that meeting VP Annie Roberts was asked if Wyndham intended to take away the VIP benefits on resale points when Privileges came out. She replied that it had been discussed but wasn't going to happen at this time. I said that if Wyndham had discussed it then we should count on it happening at some point down the road. I didn't expected it to happen for another year or two but obviously the timeline got moved up.

I also said that with the demise of the then mega renters and point managers after the Freeze of August 2016 and Voyager in May 2017 that new ones would emerge to take their places. And that we would see a huge influx of amateur renting. That Wyndham wouldn't be happy about the rookie renters too cheap prices undercutting Extra Holidays. All it takes is a look at the posts in the Facebook group Club Wyndham Timeshare - Owners helping owners - Rentals welcome! to see how pervasive the renting has become and be convinced this was only a matter of time.

The other thing I've said that was ignored/not believed is that the VIP benefits, discounts and upgrades, on resale points costs Wyndham more than people realize and  probably more than Wyndham realizes. Remember the discussions about silos. Under the current leadership I think Wyndham is finally starting to realize just how much this actually costs them. If they don't they'll soon see the proof in the numbers.


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## Eric B

I wonder if there will be lower MF resale contracts going into CWA as a result.


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## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> Thankfully this doesn't affect me much. But I am glad that I did not pick up a lot of resale points to get VIP status perks on them. Big loss of perks for those who did take that approach.
> 
> But we have been talking about Wyndham doing this for time time. So I am not surprised, I am only surprised it took this long for them to figure out how to implement it. I figured when they went to the account level totals they could implement the rules easier. I assume they will keep doing it an account level, and bucket maximums, instead of reverting back to the stupid model that you have to use the 'Right' points to make a reservation. HGVC is still this way and it drives me crazy having to shuffle points around all the time.



If you watch the video - essentially you will have the ability - somehow - to choose the points bucket to use for the reservation - though the video didn’t actually demonstrate this capability on the website - it merely showed the points being used for the reservation. I suspect this is because they don’t have the functionality ready for prime time yet and therefore don’t want to include it in any video collateral. But one thing is clear from the video - they are moving further toward points buckets. Keep in mind the CEO came from HGVC yes? So choosing the “right” points to make a reservation may be exactly where this is going. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kanerf

The other problem will be dead points.  You don't have either enough VIP or Non-VIP to make the reservation and not enough of either to make any reservation, so these points are effectively dead.


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## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> Same here. I have Christmas thru New Year and Bike Week.



I suspect that’s where the complimentary points reference will come to bear. In mid-August when the system is changed and accounts are rebalanced - the system may have to charge back points discounts made within the current use year that used resale points when this all becomes effective - so my best guess is that some kind of complimentary points will be granted to keep the owner whole - a one time points grant for the current use year to avoid points deficits in current use year accounts. Reservations made in future use years that have already exceeded the retail points allotment? Doubtful any complimentary points adjustments will be made for those…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Manzana

dgalati said:


> Another VIP Loophole closed. This should really help availability for owners to book for personal use!


This should also make it much harder to do as you say Rent from a VIP because it is much cheaper.


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## am1

Wyndham has not shown they can actually do it.  Just able to announce it and hope it works with as few bugs as possible.  I do not have faith in their it abilities.  This is a way to male owners use up more points to clear the covid backlog.  

Has anyone tried to merge accounts lately?  Or move contracts from account to another?  Any extra guest confirmations show up or duplicate reservations?  Pm me if you do not want to post it.


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## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you watch the video - essentially you will have the ability - somehow - to choose the points bucket to use for the reservation - though the video didn’t actually demonstrate this capability on the website - it merely showed the points being used for the reservation. I suspect this is because they don’t have the functionality ready for prime time yet and therefore don’t want to include it in any video collateral. But one thing is clear from the video - they are moving further toward points buckets. Keep in mind the CEO came from HGVC yes? So choosing the “right” points to make a reservation may be exactly where this is going.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But when you are on the phone with them to book it will be a nightmare Unless they figure out how to give excel like viewing of the buckets.

edited to add: Did you notice when you search you have to pick your point type? Does that mean there are two different reservation buckets where resale don’t have the same access? Only time will tell.


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## 55plus

dgalati said:


> If they were booked using discounts and free uprades Cancel them for developer owners to book vs the resale points using VIP benefits loophole that was going on unchecked for years.


Too far out for discounts and upgrades. These are at full points.


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## Ty1on

kanerf said:


> The other problem will be dead points.  You don't have either enough VIP or Non-VIP to make the reservation and not enough of either to make any reservation, so these points are effectively dead.


It says in the description that you can use VIP points to combine with non-VIP to fill a reservation, and no VIP benefits will apply.  There will be no more points breakage than there was before.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

Eric B said:


> My biggest complaint is that I will have to update my Wyndham Tracking spreadsheet for these changes.


Eric - I thought you had all your timeshare " spreadsheets " in your "between the ears" tracking device.
*****
Also - you should check if 48 "replies to a new post in 2 hours is some kind of TUG record


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## VacayKat

A little bit of info from wyndham:
another email will be coming out within the week.
this was done specifically for targeting the type of owner who got the commercial email. apparently wyndham doesn’t like their abuse of the perks. Folks like me with a small percentage resale (which is the only reason we ever bought more) don’t really factor in to their thoughts or cares. Apparently the people who this affects is VERY small.
Customer service is looped in but didn’t realize the email was going out and has rudimentary info. My guess is sales will still be touting the idea that it is all one bucket so VIP perks will apply to all points.
Wyndham will, at its discretion choose which reservations are VIPreservations and which are not. No idea how they will inform you, but there will be no recourse. No reservations should be canceled.
No current plan/info on bringing resale to developer points.
No info on the extra points- not even which use year (mine is july1 so the thought is that means 2022 use year but there are no real details.)

probably some other stuff, but that’s the main points I remember right now.


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## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> To all the VIP owners that doubted my insight and opinions on resale points being used with VIP discounts. I took a beating on this stance but Wyndham believes its the right thing to do for owners looking to book for personal use!



Gloating isn't helping anyone.  If it helps you're self esteem, I digress.


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## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> I'm going to take this opportunity to do something I try very hard not do even when it's completely justified; which is to say *I TOLD YOU SO!*
> 
> I've been saying Wyndham could do this since the Freeze of August 2016 and every one told me it wasn't possible for them to do it. Even though many of us know that the sales people and even the VC's can easily tell what's developer in our accounts and what isn't. I've also been saying it, and again more than once, since the owners meeting in Austin, TX in November 2019. At that meeting VP Annie Roberts was asked if Wyndham intended to take away the VIP benefits on resale points when Privileges came out. She replied that it had been discussed but wasn't going to happen at this time. I said that if Wyndham had discussed it then we should count on it happening at some point down the road. I didn't expected it to happen for another year or two but obviously the timeline got moved up.
> 
> I also said that with the demise of the then mega renters and point managers after the Freeze of August 2016 and Voyager in May 2017 that new ones would emerge to take their places. And that we would see a huge influx of amateur renting. That Wyndham wouldn't be happy about the rookie renters too cheap prices undercutting Extra Holidays. All it takes is a look at the posts in the Facebook group Club Wyndham Timeshare - Owners helping owners - Rentals welcome! to see how pervasive the renting has become and be convinced this was only a matter of time.
> 
> The other thing I've said is that was ignored/not believed is that the VIP benefits, discounts and upgrades, on resale points costs Wyndham more than people realize and  probably more than Wyndham realizes. Remember the discussions about silos. Under the current leadership I think Wyndham is finally starting to realize just how much this actually costs them. If they don't they'll soon see the proof in the numbers.


It was a VIP abused loophole. It was stated in the members directory that only VIP points could be used with VIP benefits a few years back but was not in the last few. 


55plus said:


> Too far out for discounts and upgrades. These are at full points.


You are good.


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## Sandy VDH

am1 said:


> Wyndham has not shown they can actually do it.  Just able to announce it and hope it works with as few bugs as possible.  I do not have faith in their it abilities.  This is a way to male owners use up more points to clear the covid backlog.



If Wyndham is announcing this, I am sure it is in their test environment NOW!. Those screen images are NOT just mockups.    It is wasn't close enough to being able to be delivered they would NOT be talking about it.  The screen shots are likely test environment shots.  I can't image them to be communicating a big change without testing if it could be accomplished first.  That is how a lot of big new features get developed, tested and released.  Those items that get pushed out in a weekly or biweekly update are bug fixes and other data issues.  But some big change like this will have been planned, along with the Change Management and Communication Plan that goes with it.


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> A little bit of info from wyndham:
> another email will be coming out within the week.
> this was done specifically for targeting the type of owner who got the commercial email. apparently wyndham doesn’t like their abuse of the perks. Folks like me with a small percentage resale (which is the only reason we ever bought more) don’t really factor in to their thoughts or cares. Apparently the people who this affects is VERY small.
> Customer service is looped in but didn’t realize the email was going out and has rudimentary info. My guess is sales will still be touting the idea that it is all one bucket so VIP perks will apply to all points.
> Wyndham will, at its discretion choose which reservations are VIPreservations and which are not. No idea how they will inform you, but there will be no recourse. No reservations should be canceled.
> No current plan/info on bringing resale to developer points.
> No info on the extra points- not even which use year (mine is july1 so the thought is that means 2022 use year but there are no real details.)
> 
> probably some other stuff, but that’s the main points I remember right now.



It may have been born of the megarenter abuse, but take care not to mistakenly assume it won't apply to you, when in fact it could be a miscommunication or, as you said, owner services has rudimentary information.  I can't imagine how they could reasonably draw a line between the abusers and the casual owners, a line so succinct that they can apply rules to one subset of owners and not another.

I don't believe they were correct in telling you Wyndham will decide from which bucket to fulfill a reservation (I'm professing this as belief, not knowledge).  The new points screen they shared makes it look pretty clear to me that when you make a reservation, you will choose what bucket you want decremented.  And this goes beyond developer vs resale....If you want to preserve CWA points for ARP, for example, choosing a non-CWA bucket to fulfill the reservation will allow you to do that.  I envision it like a bank transfer where your banking app gives you a dropdown list to choose which accounts you want to transfer from and to.


----------



## troy12n

HitchHiker71 said:


> I suspect I'll end up using my big block of resale points to make 1-2 large reservations each year for our family vacations (which I usually did via RARP - which I'll no longer be able to do due to this change since VIP benefits won't apply). * I would want to preserve my VIP eligible points for the smaller weekend getaway reservations that we make where I tend to use the VIP discount window and free upgrades available. *




My big question is, how will the mechanics of this work. Currently there's no way to specify which points you use when making a booking. The system automatically removes points from your various contracts on an "expiring first" basis. If you have multiple contracts with identical use years, how would you be able to pick and choose which reservations use which bucket of points? If I remember right, you used to be able to manually pick which contract to pull from. Or I just may be remembering that wrong...


----------



## Sandy VDH

Here is the page in Wyndham if you did not get the email.









						Online Benefit Summary
					






					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				




It states you will be able to select Developer or Resale as the points type, and the video shows that.  Obviously there will be rules that apply to Resale that don't apply to Developer points.


----------



## Manzana

This makes me ask if I am need to borrow points will I be able to borrow from next years VIP bucket instead of this years non VIP if in the correct window.   Also If points were moved forwards from this year to next what bucket did they come from.  This is going to be very confusing but from Wyndhams point of view should save a lot of money.  I do think they should explore a resale conversion as mentioned by Hitchhiker they could even make requirements and put a cap on it.


----------



## VacayKat

Ty1on said:


> It may have been born of the megarenter abuse, but take care not to mistakenly assume it won't apply to you, when in fact it could be a miscommunication or, as you said, owner services has rudimentary information.  I can't imagine how they could reasonably draw a line between the abusers and the casual owners, a line so succinct that they can apply rules to one subset of owners and not another.
> 
> I don't believe they were correct in telling you Wyndham will decide from which bucket to fulfill a reservation (I'm professing this as belief, not knowledge).  The new points screen they shared makes it look pretty clear to me that when you make a reservation, you will choose what bucket you want decremented.  And this goes beyond developer vs resale....If you want to preserve CWA points for ARP, for example, choosing a non-CWA bucket to fulfill the reservation will allow you to do that.  I envision it like a bank transfer where your banking app gives you a dropdown list to choose which accounts you want to transfer from and to.


I said: it was CAUSED by the like. Little people like me do not FACTOR in to what wyndham did. Nor in my mind do I believe they give a hoot about us.

believe what you want- but for anything that has already been reserved, that is what they will do. Perhaps it was unclear that it was meant to cover what you had now.


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> My big question is, how will the mechanics of this work. Currently there's no way to specify which points you use when making a booking. The system automatically removes points from your various contracts on an "expiring first" basis. If you have multiple contracts with identical use years, how would you be able to pick and choose which reservations use which bucket of points? If I remember right, you used to be able to manually pick which contract to pull from. Or I just may be remembering that wrong...



Again, based solely on the depiction of the points screen, it appears that you would be able to select not from an individual contract, but from a bucket that contains points from like contracts.  The example in Online Benefits Summary shows 750K of 1M Resale points available, 500K of 1M Developer WBC, 900K of 1M Discovery, and 250K of 1M Developer PR.  So if you were this owner, and you wanted to make a 205K reservation, you would be able to pull it from Resale, Bonnet Creek Developer, or PR Developer.  I don't know that Discovery members will be able to book online, even though it shows that on the example page.

And for the sake of argument, if you wanted to make a crazy 800K point reservation (just to stick with the example) and you didn't need developer benefits, you could use up the resale and then use 50K of the bonnet creek points.  VIP benefits wouldn't apply to those 50K points.


----------



## VacayKat

Sandy VDH said:


> Here is the page in Wyndham if you did not get the email.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Online Benefit Summary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It states you will be able to select Developer or Resale as the points type, and the video shows that.  Obviously there will be rules that apply to Resale that don't apply to Developer points.


Not for anything currently reserved- they will decide. So only way to prevent that would be to cancel and hope they are still there later.


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> I said: it was CAUSED by the like. Little people like me do not FACTOR in to what wyndham did. Nor in my mind do I believe they give a hoot about us.
> 
> believe what you want- but for anything that has already beem reserved, that is what they will do. Perhaps it was unclear that it was meant to cover what you had now.



What sent me on that tangent was "Apparently the people who this affects is VERY small."  My point was that even though the rule may be targeted at a very small pool of people, I think it will necessarily affect everyone who owns a combination of store bought and resale points.


----------



## VacayKat

troy12n said:


> My big question is, how will the mechanics of this work. Currently there's no way to specify which points you use when making a booking. The system automatically removes points from your various contracts on an "expiring first" basis. If you have multiple contracts with identical use years, how would you be able to pick and choose which reservations use which bucket of points? If I remember right, you used to be able to manually pick which contract to pull from. Or I just may be remembering that wrong...


They have apparently found a way to bucket your points in your account. The video shows transactions with points taken from multiple buckets. There is also a way to filter those transactions to determine the conditions it qualifies for. E.g. presidential reserve.

Which makes me wonder- are ALL points no longer usable for presidential reserve? Are they just the PR contract??????? Thinking that would piss off some owners who gave a lot of money.


----------



## VacayKat

Ty1on said:


> What sent me on that tangent was "Apparently the people who this affects is VERY small."  My point was that even though the rule may be targeted at a very small pool of people, I think it will necessarily affect everyone who owns a combination of store bought and resale points.


And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small.


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small.



Got it, that's where I got lost.


----------



## troy12n

Ty1on said:


> And for the sake of argument, if you wanted to make a crazy 800K point reservation (just to stick with the example) and you didn't need developer benefits, you could use up the resale and then use 50K of the bonnet creek points.  VIP benefits wouldn't apply to those 50K points.



Having never owned any resale points, do those contracts still get a certain number of reservations and HK credits for free, based on how many points are in the contract? If so, and you would have the ability to scrutinize which contract you pull from, this may be less of an issue for your average joe, while at the same time sticking it to the renters...


----------



## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> I'm going to take this opportunity to do something I try very hard not do even when it's completely justified; which is to say *I TOLD YOU SO!*
> 
> I've been saying Wyndham could do this since the Freeze of August 2016 and every one told me it wasn't possible for them to do it.




??



In Nov. 2016 Jan M. said:


> We don't have any resale contracts at this time but thanks to the people who post on TUG we plan to purchase a resale contract. We have owned Wyndham for 15 years, when they were still Fairfield, and attended sales presentations for two years prior to our first purchase. We cannot remember ever going to a presentation/update that the sales people haven't gone over the cancel/rebook/upgrade "privilege" as they have called it and they also discussed renting to help with the maintenance fees. This is why we and others bought developer points even when we learned that buying resale was an option. A seller cannot repeatedly, over an extended period of years, openly market and sell a product making claims and then fall back on "it's not in the contract" or "that's not how we intended the system to work" even though that is EXACTLY what they said. There are certain legalities involved when employees of a company make claims/promises on behalf of the company especially when those employees were making those claims/promises as instructed by the chain of command within the company to promote/sell the product.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> ??


Hey @CO skier could you repost the members directory stating only VIP benefits can be used with developer points?


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> Having never owned any resale points, do those contracts still get a certain number of reservations and HK credits for free, based on how many points are in the contract? If so, and you would have the ability to scrutinize which contract you pull from, this may be less of an issue for your average joe, while at the same time sticking it to the renters...



Yes, it used to be 1 HK per thousand points, but they've changed it, I think to 1 HK per 77K?  HKs are assigned one per stay rather than according to unit size now, so it doesn't mean they took 76 HK away.  It does mean you are more likely to pay an expensive HK fee if you frequently book short stays.

Reservation Transactions were 1 free for every 77K points and I don't think that has changed.  I don't think they would go so far as sequestering HK and Resv by bucket, because I'm not sure that would accomplish anything.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Hey @CO skier could you repost the members directory stating only VIP benefits can be used with developer points?


Sorry, I have no desire to join team dgalati.

The search feature works well.


----------



## SueDonJ

_*Moderator Note*: Posts have been deleted after a Report was generated by an ad posted in the thread. This is a reminder that the TUG Rules prohibit ads in the public forums, which means any ad-like posts and responses to them will be deleted.

Also, please be careful to follow the "Be Courteous" rule. Impacted Wyndham owners are understandably confused and anxious about all of these recent Wyndham actions, and the related threads are very important if all owners are to be able to understand all the impacts going forward. (As well, those of us who are interested but not impacted want to learn what might possibly be adopted by our timeshare companies.) Please, don't derail these threads with unnecessary digs at each other. Thanks!_


----------



## am1

Sandy VDH said:


> If Wyndham is announcing this, I am sure it is in their test environment NOW!. Those screen images are NOT just mockups.    It is wasn't close enough to being able to be delivered they would NOT be talking about it.  The screen shots are likely test environment shots.  I can't image them to be communicating a big change without testing if it could be accomplished first.  That is how a lot of big new features get developed, tested and released.  Those items that get pushed out in a weekly or biweekly update are bug fixes and other data issues.  But some big change like this will have been planned, along with the Change Management and Communication Plan that goes with it.


You have more faith then me.  One December I had around 50 million points show up in my account.  No one could figure out how that happened and at the end of the year they expired.  Not sure if I used extra points or lost points on the deal.  Other time it would take multiple tries to cancel a reservation but every time I tried it returned the points back to me.  No one I spoke with knew why (reasonable) but no one ran it up the flag pole to find out. Many other glitches I found along the way.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> Yes, it used to be 1 HK per thousand points, but they've changed it, I think to 1 HK per 77K?  HKs are assigned one per stay rather than according to unit size now, so it doesn't mean they took 76 HK away.  It does mean you are more likely to pay an expensive HK fee if you frequently book short stays.
> 
> Reservation Transactions were 1 free for every 77K points and I don't think that has changed.  I don't think they would go so far as sequestering HK and Resv by bucket, because I'm not sure that would accomplish anything.


Limiting "unlimited" reservations transactions and housekeeping to the VIP bucket might make a difference for grandfathered VIP accounts with a large amount of resale points.


----------



## troy12n

Ty1on said:


> Yes, it used to be 1 HK per thousand points, but they've changed it, I think to 1 HK per 77K?  HKs are assigned one per stay rather than according to unit size now, so it doesn't mean they took 76 HK away.  It does mean you are more likely to pay an expensive HK fee if you frequently book short stays.
> 
> Reservation Transactions were 1 free for every 77K points and I don't think that has changed.  I don't think they would go so far as sequestering HK and Resv by bucket, because I'm not sure that would accomplish anything.



Ok, so in theory, if you are VIP Gold and have 750k points, unlimited HK and Transactions, and another 500k resale, you would have ~16 Hk and Reservation "tokens". 

Since your VIP points wouldn't need to use them, you would in effect have 16 available for your resale points... again, in theory?

Since different levels of VIP get different benefits (like grandfathered Silver has unlimited HK, but not transactions)?


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small.



Yes it is. I’ve mentioned here multiple times I’m various posts that the total of all resale contracts in the Wyndham system was reportedly 20k back in Nov 2019. Out of roughly 450k CWP owners at that time. In other words, less than 5%. This info came from attending the annual owners meeting in Austin. What I don’t know for sure is if that was the number of resale contracts, owners, or accounts. But in any case - as @VacayKat said, it’s very much a minority of owners. Not VIP owners mind you, which is an even smaller subset of that number. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandy VDH

am1 said:


> You have more faith then me.  One December I had around 50 million points show up in my account.  No one could figure out how that happened and at the end of the year they expired.  Not sure if I used extra points or lost points on the deal.  Other time it would take multiple tries to cancel a reservation but every time I tried it returned the points back to me.  No one I spoke with knew why (reasonable) but no one ran it up the flag pole to find out. Many other glitches I found along the way.



Yes, Data is a funny thing.  If it is right and you have the right systems and processing, it is good.  But allowing people to over ride and not having the right controls or allowing manual adjustments, without an audit trail, then it is going to have issues.  The system is only as good as the data transactions, and an audit would permit.  

For most accounts it was probably fine.  

2 Decades ago, I had a bank around that kept accidently clearly someone's processing through it, every month $30,000 was coming in and $29,000 ish was going out.  So every month there would be a little bit left behind.  Eventually they figure out it was a coding error on the account.  When the original owners transactions weren't posting they finally did an audit and found it.  Turns out it was a error based on the incorrect info originally provided.  But with the correct audits, they can figure out who put it there and when.  

My guess is Wyndham, based on their poor audit history, does not track that info adequately, and one account and not widespread accounts were impacted, so they just couldn't  be bothered to fix it.


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> Ok, so in theory, if you are VIP Gold and have 750k points, unlimited HK and Transactions, and another 500k resale, you would have ~16 Hk and Reservation "tokens".
> 
> Since your VIP points wouldn't need to use them, you would in effect have 16 available for your resale points... again, in theory?
> 
> Since different levels of VIP get different benefits (like grandfathered Silver has unlimited HK, but not transactions)?


I thought I had read that unlimited HK had gone away, but I guess preexisting VIPs would be grandfathered into them.  Firstly, if what you are suggesting is true, 16 HK applied to resale is less exploiting than unlimited.  Secondly, the more I think about it, maybe that's a reason to sequester resale HKs.


----------



## troy12n

Ty1on said:


> I thought I had read that unlimited HK had gone away, but I guess preexisting VIPs would be grandfathered into them.  Firstly, if what you are suggesting is true, 16 HK applied to resale is less exploiting than unlimited.  Secondly, the more I think about it, maybe that's a reason to sequester resale HKs.



If you were any level of VIP prior to November 2020 when they changed things, you had unlimited HK, and retained it after the change. Silver VIP definitely had unlimited HK prior to the change.

Apparently any new VIP level after the change in November 2020 does not get it if you were not at least Silver prior to the change.

The question was specifically whether or not they would be calculating things like transactions or HK tokens based on total ownership, or just non-vip ownership if your VIP level does not support a specific benefit.

The example I gave would be that a *grandfathered* Silver VIP would have unlimited HK, but not unlimited transactions. So would they calculate the different benefits separately, or based on total ownership... I guess we will find out at some point


----------



## hjsweet2002

I have been enticed by Wyndham to buy a small VIP contract and to do so my resale points would reap VIP benefits.  Those who have bought andvusedvresale points with VIP benefits should be grandfathered.  Another reason I don't trust Wyndham VIP program..  well here is another exaggeration Wyndham sales can use.  I do not distinguish bewtween salesvand Wyndham. Sales is Wyndham.


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> If you were any level of VIP prior to November 2020 when they changed things, you had unlimited HK, and retained it after the change. Silver VIP definitely had unlimited HK prior to the change.
> 
> Apparently any new VIP level after the change in November 2020 does not get it if you were not at least Silver prior to the change.
> 
> The question was specifically whether or not they would be calculating things like transactions or HK tokens based on total ownership, or just non-vip ownership if your VIP level does not support a specific benefit.
> 
> The example I gave would be that a *grandfathered* Silver VIP would have unlimited HK, but not unlimited transactions. So would they calculate the different benefits separately, or based on total ownership... I guess we will find out at some point


The logical answer has to be that they must plan to track VIP hk and resv separately for both awarding and usage.  It would be the only way to execute the separation of resale from VIP benefits, including the grandfathered unlimited.

The reason I struggle to answer that question is that I'm not VIP, and HK and resv are a nuance I haven't thought through.


----------



## chapjim

Does anyone have an idea what "balance your account for the current Use Year" means?  How will they do it?  Whatever it means, what are the chances they'll do it correctly?


----------



## Ty1on

chapjim said:


> Does anyone have an idea what "balance your account for the current Use Year" means?  How will they do it?  Whatever it means, what are the chances they'll do it correctly?


That, I think, is going to be the stickiest situation created by this change.


----------



## Rolltydr

VacayKat said:


> I was. By sales , customer service and owner care,


So, you asked Wyndham Sales, CS, and Owner Care before you purchased a Wyndham Contract from a 3rd party at pennies on the dollar (maybe even for free) for what it would have cost you to purchase that same contract from Wyndham? First, I find that hard to believe. But, assuming you were doing due diligence, you say you got the same answer from all three areas and they all said you would receive VIP benefits in perpetuity for that contract(s) even though it didn’t meet the criteria for VIP benefits which clearly state points must be purchased from Wyndham to qualify for VIP benefits? Sorry, not buying that.


----------



## SueDonJ

chapjim said:


> Does anyone have an idea what "balance your account for the current Use Year" means?  How will they do it?  Whatever it means, what are the chances they'll do it correctly?



Whenever any of the timeshare companies give any kind of notice that they'll be working within accounts, the smart thing for all owners/members to do is take a screenshot or printout of their accounts as they exist prior to whatever work is done.


----------



## Ty1on

SueDonJ said:


> Whenever any of the timeshare companies give any kind of notice that they'll be working within accounts, the smart thing for all owners/members to do is take a screenshot or printout of their accounts as they exist prior to whatever work is done.


Best advice on this thread.


----------



## Rolltydr

kanerf said:


> The other problem will be dead points.  You don't have either enough VIP or Non-VIP to make the reservation and not enough of either to make any reservation, so these points are effectively dead.


I assume we will still be able to borrow or rent points from the next use year so they wouldn’t be dead, just would need life support!


----------



## SueDonJ

Ty1on said:


> Best advice on this thread.



I agree! It's one of the earliest tidbits I learned from all the people on TUG much smarter than me, and I'm happy to pass it on!


----------



## Cyrus24

I need to check my mail more often, just now catching up.  I suspect I’ll be looking at dumping my small resale contract so that I can have a pure VIPP account.  The resale is just clutter today but it will make account management hard down the road.

I suspect that there will be a massive dump of resale contracts.

I also see renting from an owner getting more difficult and much more expensive.  

Final comment.  Can’t wait to see how messed up the site will be once this rolls out, Wyndham IT has a pretty poor track record when rolling out big changes.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> Does anyone have an idea what "balance your account for the current Use Year" means?  How will they do it?  Whatever it means, what are the chances they'll do it correctly?


They didn’t consistently do it correctly when they changed the housekeeping credits, and that was…a lot less complicated.


----------



## Eric B

Looks to me like for future years, once things shake out, owners will be the ones picking what bucket the points come from.  The one thing I haven't seen is any hint of whether they will let you change your mind later and reallocate the point usage as is possible in some other systems.  If they are willing to do that without charging additional reservation transactions, it won't be completely terrible.  If they refuse to do that or charge reservation transactions to folks that chose the wrong bucket originally there will be a ton of very upset users.


----------



## paxsarah

Cyrus24 said:


> Final comment. Can’t wait to see how messed up the site will be once this rolls out, Wyndham IT has a pretty poor track record when rolling out big changes.


Anyone planning to book in mid-August for a 10-month reservation for next June or a 13-month reservation for next September, godspeed!


----------



## paxsarah

VacayKat said:


> Which makes me wonder- are ALL points no longer usable for presidential reserve? Are they just the PR contract??????? Thinking that would piss off some owners who gave a lot of money.


Is this not how presidential reserve always worked? I thought it was like ARP, limited to the number of points in that contract.


----------



## hjsweet2002

Rolltydr said:


> So, you asked Wyndham Sales, CS, and Owner Care before you purchased a Wyndham Contract from a 3rd party at pennies on the dollar (maybe even for free) for what it would have cost you to purchase that same contract from Wyndham? First, I find that hard to believe. But, assuming you were doing due diligence, you say you got the same answer from all three areas and they all said you would receive VIP benefits in perpetuity for that contract(s) even though it didn’t meet the criteria for VIP benefits which clearly state points must be purchased from Wyndham to qualify for VIP benefits? Sorry, not buying that.


I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits.  And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past.  Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.


----------



## am1

Best to move resale to a different use year.


----------



## jfellenz

_[Threads merged.]_

*Here is an email I just received.  Great year.  First they take our prime weeks and weekends and now this.
WYNDHAM CARES but for who??*


We hope your VIP by Wyndham benefits have helped you maximize your Club Wyndham experience. As a valued Club Wyndham Plus member with Founders VIP by Wyndham benefits, it is important that you are aware of an upcoming system update that will provide a more comprehensive view of your membership and support existing VIP by Wyndham program guidelines. This system update will not impact your VIP tier status. An overview of the system changes is outlined below:

Update to Your Online Experience

In mid-August, we will introduce a new online Benefits Summary, which will enable you to distinguish between points you have purchased directly from Club Wyndham (“VIP Eligible Points”) and points that have been acquired through the third-party resale market (“Non-VIP Eligible Points”). This distinction will help you better understand the points and VIP benefits associated with your membership.

Once this system update takes place, your VIP Eligible Points will continue to unlock the VIP benefits associated with your VIP tier. The system will award VIP benefits only to VIP Eligible Points. As a reminder, in accordance with the VIP by Wyndham program guidelines, VIP benefits are not applicable to Non-VIP Eligible Points.

The VIP benefits that will be available to VIP Eligible Points will include:

  •     VIP Suite Upgrade Opt-In

  •     Points Discounts

  •     Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority

  •     Points Deposit - More Time To Extend Points

  •     More Time To Convert To Maintenance Dollars

  •     Additional Housekeeping Credits, based on VIP tier

  •     Complimentary Reservation Transactions, based on VIP tier

  •     Option To Request Specific Suites

  •     Early Access To Margaritaville Vacation Club Resorts

With this system enhancement, we will balance your account for the current Use Year and adjust benefits according to whether your reservation was made with VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points. This reconciliation will only apply to reservations in the current Use Year.

As you adjust to this system update we are pleased to offer some options to help you maximize your vacation opportunities. Complimentary points will be deposited into your next Use Year when the system update takes place mid-August. Additionally, from the August system update through Dec. 31, 2021, you will have the option to convert your Non-VIP Eligible Points to maintenance fees or utilize the Points Deposit Feature to move your Non-VIP Eligible Points into a future Use Year.

Understanding the Benefits Summary

The new online Benefits Summary will streamline your view of your individual points and benefits and give you more control over how you use your membership.

Upon booking a resort reservation or making another type of transaction on your Club Wyndham website, you will be able to choose whether you would like to use your VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points ─ you can apply VIP benefits for the reservation(s) where they can have the greatest impact. The Benefits Summary will update automatically to reflect your current points and benefits for each points type.

This new tool will put you in the driver’s seat as you check destinations off your bucket list.

This system update will help enforce a longstanding rule, as well as provide greater transparency into your points and associated benefits, while giving you the control to prioritize your vacations. By better preserving the exclusivity and value of the VIP by Wyndham program, we continue to ensure your VIP tier helps you unlock fantastic benefits and elevate your vacations.

For more information on the Benefits Summary and this system update, please visit your Club Wyndham website, and sign up for an upcoming education session. You may also reach a dedicated support team by calling 844-991-0921.

Sincerely,

Your Club Wyndham Management Team


----------



## troy12n

There's already a 4 page long post...


----------



## troy12n

hjsweet2002 said:


> I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits.  And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past.  Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.



Na... why would they do that. Wishful thinking.


----------



## troy12n

I think it's likely that any existing reservation made and in the system before whatever date this takes effect will be honored as-is with whatever VIP benefits were attached to them at time of booking, but after that date, the new rules will apply.

There's no way they are going to grandfather VIP benefits to existing owners of resale contracts. They seem to be doing this as part of a strategy to cut down on renters, this seems to be just one more measure taken to get them to exit the system. And this might be the last straw.

But they certainly won't grandfather people in who bought hundreds of thousands or millions of points for pennies on the dollar. That cheapens "the brand"... and would be a slap in the face of anyone who bought retail


----------



## Rolltydr

hjsweet2002 said:


> I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits.  And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past.  Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.


I own 2 resale contracts in addition to 450k CWA developer points which qualify for VIP Silver, grandfathered. I have nothing anywhere in writing that states those resale points qualify for VIP. On the contrary, I do have documents from Wyndham that state only developer points qualify for VIP. When I purchased those resale contracts, I was told I would receive VIP benefits until and unless Wyndham devised a way to segregate the points. Wyndham apparently has done so. If you have something in writing stating anything different, I’d love to see it.


----------



## hjsweet2002

I am so sick of Wyndham and VIP owners who only think about themselves


----------



## Breezy52

HitchHiker71 said:


> Interesting development to be sure.  If Wyndham is listening - they should consider a limited time opportunity - perhaps between now and 12/31/2021 to allow current VIP owners that also hold resale contracts some type of conversion opportunity to convert resale contracts to VIP developer points (with a contract limit perhaps - such as up to x number of contracts and/or x amount of points), similar to what they have offered via piggyback contracts for example.  I suspect there would be quite a few VIP owners who hold a resale contract or two, that may consider such a conversion, myself included.


I am a Worldmark owner and when Travelshare, which is their version I believe of VIP began, they converted our resale points when we added some additional points. It was well worth it and hopefully Wyndham will do what you are suggesting.


----------



## Rolltydr

hjsweet2002 said:


> I am so sick of Wyndham and VIP owners who only think about themselves


You mean the overwhelming majority of VIP owners whom this will not impact one iota?


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> ??



How naive I was back then about how Wyndham could escape being held accountable for anything the salespeople said that wasn't in what we signed when we bought. I was still naive enough to believe things would change in regards to selling tactics they use on seniors after the whistleblower lawsuit. However Wyndham sales people continue to be guilty of senior abuse.

In spite of being told about book, cancel, rebook and upgrade repeatedly in sales presentations I never viewed it as some inalienable right because a salesperson told us about it. I've said repeatedly that I didn't do the book, cancel, rebook and upgrade because we always used too many of our points for me to be able to tie up that many points to do it. Added to that was the risk of losing the reservation in the process of doing it which would have made tying up all those points pointless. Lol. When it was no longer possible to do it with the advent of Voyager I did however understand other people's frustration even if it didn't impact us.

I will also understand other people's frustration about the loss of VIP benefits on their resale points. We do have some resale points now that we didn't have back 2016 that I intend to keep. When I bought them I did so with the expectation that in a few years things would once again change. In recent months I've been making sure I learn and understand the things I will need to know about how to use our resale points. Housekeeping credits, reservation transactions, etc. We've been VIP for 18 years so it's been awhile. Why would I keep resale points? Because our family needs are changing and I'll be booking more full point reservations. Our son and DIL are expecting their third child, A boy this time! They have two girls ages 5 and very soon to be 10. Our older granddaughter did swim team this summer. I'd hoped for a few more years before they became one of those families that can only go this week or that week.

I won't be surprised to also see some changes in regards to guest confirmations within the coming year. If that happens I'll push my sister harder to agree to let me add her and my nephew to our smallest deed so I don't have to keep using guest confirmations for them. So once again I'm not concerned about the impact it will have on us and have a plan.

I remember how I felt when I discovered owners were getting VIP benefits on resale points when it's clearly stated that resale points aren't eligible for VIP benefits. Not happy doesn't even come close. We're PR so you know we spent an obscene amount of money buying developer over the years. I was also resentful about the repeated and unnecessary loss of VIP benefits over the years. Even if I didn't use them I resented the program being whittled away when all they ever had to do is what they're currently doing. I still feel like I'm reeling in shock over this email today even though I fully expected it to happen no later than 2023.

Will this, the letters and the blackout lists be effective? Time will tell. What we can and should learn from this is to stop listening to people who say Wyndham can't or wouldn't do this or that for whatever reasons. They can and they are. And clearly they aren't worried about a mass exodus of VIP owners or resale flooding the market as many claimed they would be. It seems that Wyndham is out to make it as difficult as possible for some owners to find a way to adapt and change this time.


----------



## VacayKat

Rolltydr said:


> So, you asked Wyndham Sales, CS, and Owner Care before you purchased a Wyndham Contract from a 3rd party at pennies on the dollar (maybe even for free) for what it would have cost you to purchase that same contract from Wyndham? First, I find that hard to believe. But, assuming you were doing due diligence, you say you got the same answer from all three areas and they all said you would receive VIP benefits in perpetuity for that contract(s) even though it didn’t meet the criteria for VIP benefits which clearly state points must be purchased from Wyndham to qualify for VIP benefits? Sorry, not buying that.


So you misread. I was informed that AFTER purchasing a developer contract my resale would just be part of the account and thus would enjoy the same VIP benefits but that it would not contribute to achieving the level. Sorry if you don’t buy it, I’m not selling a pack of lies, simply stating the truth.


----------



## bizaro86

Wow. I think this will have a bigger impact on the market for Wyndham contracts than people are suggesting. Even if only a small number of VIPs have resale, there are some that have A LOT of points. It doesn't take too many accounts with 50 million resale credits in them getting sold to change the market dynamics. 

I feel bad for those who have been depending on that. Maybe I'll finally be able to get a Canterbury resale at a reasonable price though, which would be nice.


----------



## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> Is this not how presidential reserve always worked? I thought it was like ARP, limited to the number of points in that contract.


Don’t think so - I mean for ARP yes, but I haven’t come up on any restrictions apart from that.


----------



## troy12n

hjsweet2002 said:


> I am so sick of Wyndham and VIP owners who only think about themselves



Let's flip this around... why should someone who paid for retail points really care that people who bought resale are no longer getting a free ride when it comes to VIP discounts and privilages?

Honestly answer the question. Everyone knew this day would come. I think most people (except 1, in particular) have been pretty civil in this thread...

There are some who actually feel some level of contempt for people freeloading VIP benefits for so long. Especially when the scope of such is to the tune of millions of points. And even moreso when they are running wanna-be landlord type businesses using these freeloading benefits. 

This is what Wyndham is trying to fix.


----------



## CO skier

VacayKat said:


> So you misread. I was informed that AFTER purchasing a developer contract my resale would just be part of the account and thus would enjoy the same VIP benefits but that it would not contribute to achieving the level. Sorry if you don’t buy it, I’m not selling a pack of lies, simply stating the truth.


At the time you upgraded your resale account to VIP, what sales, customer service, and owner care said was true, right?  What sales neglected to tell you, that owners learned in 2008 and 2016 and 2020 and now in 2021 is that the rules can change.  When the rules change, customer service and owner care has to catch up to the rules changes.  Sales, customer service and owner care do not set policy for all time.


----------



## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> In spite of being told about book, cancel, rebook and upgrade repeatedly in sales presentations I never viewed it as some inalienable right because a salesperson told us about it.


That thinking is very different from what you posted in 2016 regarding "certain legalities" (legal rights)


Jan M. said:


> There are *certain legalities involved when* employees of a company make claims/promises on behalf of the company especially when *those employees were making those claims/promises* as instructed by the chain of command within the company to promote/*sell the product.*



fyi - I think you do not know what "inalienable rights" means.  It has nothing to do with property rights or timeshares.

Nonetheless, your Club Wyndham VIP epiphany over a few years is instructive to those who think, now, like you did in 2016, and it will save them a lot of time on deciding whether or not to sellout -- maybe saving money on attorney fees, too.

It is Wyndham's sandbox.  Wyndham management has, somehow, finally, awakened to this and is putting the hammer down to prioritize owners' usage for their personal vacations.  Just like a Vacation Club should be.


----------



## CO skier

troy12n said:


> Everyone knew this day would come.


"Everyone?"  In the past ?  Really?  Obviously NOT.   Please quote the posts from these "everyones."

Can you point to _any_ posts beyond "a certain _one_" that predicted "this day would come?"

Obvious NOW(!) that "this day" is here.


----------



## CO skier

bizaro86 said:


> Wow. I think this will have a bigger impact on the market for Wyndham contracts than people are suggesting.


Like how?  CWA contracts are selling for $5/1000 points.  Last fall/winter it was $2-3/1000 points.

If it should somehow go to $1 per CWA contract, how is that a "big impact?"


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> That thinking is very different than what you posted in 2016 regarding "certain legalities"
> 
> 
> Nonetheless, your epiphany over a few years is instructive to those who think, now, like you did in 2016, and it will save them a lot of time on deciding whether or not to sellout -- maybe saving money on attorney fees, too.



2016/2017 was certainly a time of epiphanies in regards to Wyndham. I still can't wrap my head around how Wyndham manages to dodge any and all responsibility for what their employees, representatives of the company, say. Let me make it very clear that I was never saying that book, cancel, rebook and upgrade shouldn't have been stopped because of what the sales people said. However I understood then and I'll understand now that some owners are once again going to feel cheated, deceived, incensed, etc. I don't have to agree with something to be able to understand it.

Some people insist on trying to twist things to their advantage. Wyndham can't define commercial renting. The salespeople told us for years. How can they do that when...  I'm not sure if it's a bid for sympathy or they've convinced themselves that their reasoning stands a snowball's chance. Really? Ask yourself who you know who has ever had that work for them in dealing with Wyndham?  CO skier and I don't always agree with each other but on this we do. As he says it's time to decide if you're getting out or staying in and learning to accept how things will be moving forward.

Good luck to those of you willing to waste your money on attorneys. Class action? Make sure you ask about the expenses because they're not inconsiderable. They come off the top of any settlement before it's split and if you don't win or get a settlement big enough to cover them guess who pays them. Also ask around and see if you can find someone who's willing to tell you about what typically happens with your account while you're involved in a legal dispute with Wyndham.


----------



## bizaro86

CO skier said:


> Like how?  CWA contracts are selling for $5/1000 points.  Last fall/winter it was $2-3/1000 points.
> 
> If it should somehow go to $1 per CWA contract, how is that a "big impact?"



Well, that's certainly a big impact on a percentage basis. I do think $1/contract for CWA is likely coming back this winter. Prices are set based on supply and demand. Megas using VIP on resale points will be getting out, increasing supply of contracts. But megas were also previously a big source of resale demand, so demand will be down also. I think the combination of that takes prices down dramatically. Obviously ovation should keep the $0 value as a limit.

And for the folks who do have 50 million resale points $5/1000 is $250,000. Whereas $1/contract is ~$0. I'd think it was a big impact if I lost a quarter million dollars.

Anyway, I own zero Wyndham so no horse in this race.


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> Is this not how presidential reserve always worked? I thought it was like ARP, limited to the number of points in that contract.



That's correct.  I can only book at fourteen months reservations up to the total of my PR points.


----------



## regatta333

In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account.  When I click on it, it shows my VIP Gold account and each of two resale accounts.  Point balances are zero since I have no points remaining this year.  I guess you will have to switch among the accounts to book, although I'm not sure why they didn't just group the non-VIP accounts together.  This really adds a level of complexity that is not appealing.
Also, we are already not getting VIP upgrades, as discussed in another thread.  You'd think they'd maybe focus on fixing existing problems before adding potential new ones that will result in more dissatisfaction with the broken booking system.


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> I think it's likely that any existing reservation made and in the system before whatever date this takes effect will be honored as-is with whatever VIP benefits were attached to them at time of booking, but after that date, the new rules will apply.
> 
> There's no way they are going to grandfather VIP benefits to existing owners of resale contracts. They seem to be doing this as part of a strategy to cut down on renters, this seems to be just one more measure taken to get them to exit the system. And this might be the last straw.
> 
> But they certainly won't grandfather people in who bought hundreds of thousands or millions of points for pennies on the dollar. That cheapens "the brand"... and would be a slap in the face of anyone who bought retail



I think this is spot-on except I'm not so confident about your first paragraph.  If Wyndham does honor existing reservations, it won't be an act of grace.  Rather, it will be an admission that trying to do anything else is too daunting a task for its pitiful IT division.

We should and probably will have further discussions about what cheapens "the brand."  Wyndham is already doing a pretty good job of that.  Maybe they intend to hide behind the Travel & Leisure brand so people will forget that Wyndham stuck it to the ones who bought into their system, the ones who spent the most money on their product.


----------



## Rolltydr

VacayKat said:


> I was informed that AFTER purchasing a developer contract my resale would just be part of the account and thus would enjoy the same VIP benefits but that it would not contribute to achieving the level.


That was actually true at the time and will be until this system update is implemented which allows Wyndham to differentiate between the points you bought from them, which do qualify for VIP, and the points you purchased from a third party which do not. Same is true for me. No rules have been changed. Wyndham created a way to enforce the rule which was already in place. Think of it like speeding. 50 years ago, the policeman had to guess how fast a car was moving. His guess may or may not have stood up in court. Then, the radar gun was invented. This gave police a much better way to determine if the driver was actually speeding or not. The law didn’t change. The police were given a better tool to enforce the already existing law.


----------



## troy12n

CO skier said:


> "Everyone?"  In the past ?  Really?  Obviously NOT.   Please quote the posts from these "everyones."



Everyone...

Let me repeat, *EVERYONE* knew this day would come. Because in this world you don't get something for nothing. Especially when there is money to be made, and when people are gaming the system. You would have to have been severely in denial, or just flat out lying if you didn't think this would happen.

Look at it this way, the free ride you got probably lasted longer than it should have.



> Can you point to _any_ posts beyond "a certain _one_" that predicted "this day would come?"
> 
> Obvious NOW(!) that "this day" is here.


 
I most certainly *COULD*, but i'm not going to, because it's such an absurd ask, and i'm not going to waste my time


----------



## 55plus

regatta333 said:


> In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account.  When I click on it, it shows my VIP Gold account and each of two resale accounts.  Point balances are zero since I have no points remaining this year.


I'm not seeing the drop down window or any other changes on my account this morning. Why some and not others?


----------



## Sandi Bo

55plus said:


> I'm not seeing the drop down window or any other changes on my account this morning. Why some and not others?


I don't see it either. Tried chrome and safari.


----------



## Rolltydr

regatta333 said:


> In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account.


Interesting.  I don’t have that on mine. I don’t see any changes so far.


----------



## kanerf

regatta333 said:


> In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account.  When I click on it, it shows my VIP Gold account and each of two resale accounts.  Point balances are zero since I have no points remaining this year.  I guess you will have to switch among the accounts to book, although I'm not sure why they didn't just group the non-VIP accounts together.  This really adds a level of complexity that is not appealing.
> Also, we are already not getting VIP upgrades, as discussed in another thread.  You'd think they'd maybe focus on fixing existing problems before adding potential new ones that will result in more dissatisfaction with the broken booking system.


Not seeing this in my account.


----------



## Free2Roam

I saw that briefly earlier this year when I owned a couple fixed weeks at Avenue Plaza. I have since given those back to Wyndham and that option went away. I figured it was related... but now I'm wondering if it was a preview to these changes. My account (which my sister now manages) has developer and resale contracts.


----------



## regatta333

I do have some fixed weeks, so that is probably what it is.


----------



## Roger830

bizaro86 said:


> Well, that's certainly a big impact on a percentage basis. I do think $1/contract for CWA is likely coming back this winter. Prices are set based on supply and demand. Megas using VIP on resale points will be getting out, increasing supply of contracts. But megas were also previously a big source of resale demand, so demand will be down also. I think the combination of that takes prices down dramatically. Obviously ovation should keep the $0 value as a limit.
> 
> And for the folks who do have 50 million resale points $5/1000 is $250,000. Whereas $1/contract is ~$0. I'd think it was a big impact if I lost a quarter million dollars.
> 
> *Anyway, I own zero Wyndham so no horse in this race.*



Well, I do own Wyndham and I see no change in resale value which is essentially $0 for a seller if Wyndham accepts my contracts in their Certified Exit program and I have desirable resorts for potential buyers.

It seems that for most member's the uncertainty of the length of time for the sale and closing while mf cost is accumulating doesn't seem to make it worth the aggravation of not using Wyndham.

By the way, I never stated in the past that Wyndham would not allow resale contracts to use vip benefits.


----------



## VacayKat

Rolltydr said:


> That was actually true at the time and will be until this system update is implemented which allows Wyndham to differentiate between the points you bought from them, which do qualify for VIP, and the points you purchased from a third party which do not. Same is true for me. No rules have been changed. Wyndham created a way to enforce the rule which was already in place. Think of it like speeding. 50 years ago, the policeman had to guess how fast a car was moving. His guess may or may not have stood up in court. Then, the radar gun was invented. This gave police a much better way to determine if the driver was actually speeding or not. The law didn’t change. The police were given a better tool to enforce the already existing law.


So I understand what you are saying. But Wyndham certainly had the capacity to bucket points if they wanted to. They just didn’t want to AND knew they could use it to lure resale folks to make developer purchases. Precedent is set by action and the precedent was set that for my resale points I would receive the same VIP perks (aside from ARP). If you not only permit but engage in suggesting it’s a perk, the RULE as written is not as enforceable as it might have been. I think the analogy to speeding is incorrect as well. Seriously, they have had to have had the points bucketed in some way already because they knew which resorts I could and could not reserve before 10 months, and they knew how many of my points I could use to do it with.
Police choose who to enforce the rule with just as often as they choose who not to enforce the rule with. A better analogy might be that it is against the law for police to break the rules of the road including speeding, but they do so frequently and because their position allows them to do so because of the precedent set by no one enforcing the law.
*IF* the rules as written for owners like me mattered they would have enforced them long ago. Seems to me they have started listening to a small but vocal group of unhappy non VIP folks angry that others might get a few perks.


----------



## 55plus

My Old Town Alexandria resale contract is for ARP during Inaugurations and Memorial Day and my Durango resale contract is for ARP when the Aspen turn in the fall. I'll keep them and will probably let my Glacier Canyon resale contract go. I don't need it anymore; nice and nephews are older now.


----------



## Rolltydr

VacayKat said:


> So I understand what you are saying. But Wyndham certainly had the capacity to bucket points if they wanted to. They just didn’t want to AND knew they could use it to lure resale folks to make developer purchases. Precedent is set by action and the precedent was set that for my resale points I would receive the same VIP perks (aside from ARP). If you not only permit but engage in suggesting it’s a perk, the RULE as written is not as enforceable as it might have been. I think the analogy to speeding is incorrect as well. Seriously, they have had to have had the points bucketed in some way already because they knew which resorts I could and could not reserve before 10 months, and they knew how many of my points I could use to do it with.
> Police choose who to enforce the rule with just as often as they choose who not to enforce the rule with. A better analogy might be that it is against the law for police to break the rules of the road including speeding, but they do so frequently and because their position allows them to do so because of the precedent set by no one enforcing the law.
> *IF* the rules as written for owners like me mattered they would have enforced them long ago. Seems to me they have started listening to a small but vocal group of unhappy non VIP folks angry that others might get a few perks.


You, and I, were taking advantage of a loophole. That loophole is being closed. You’re mad about it and blaming Wyndham and unknown complainers out to get VIP owners (and mega-renters). Corporations, and law enforcement, decide which rules or laws to focus their efforts on based on the consequences at any given point in time. The consequences of allowing owners to continue to reap benefits they did not pay for has become too great for Wyndham to ignore. You can be mad about it all you want, and you can blame Wyndham or any other boogeyman, but the fault lies at the feet of the owners (mega-renters) who are abusing the system. I’m done.


----------



## HitchHiker71

For anyone who may not have actually watched the video and caught how this change is being implemented, below is a screenshot from the video for ease of reference.  There's an additional field provided when performing the inventory search called Purchase Type where you will choose from one of two buckets:

Developer
Resale
This makes sense given that the type of points used will impact inventory availability for VIP owners due to RARP, discounts, and free upgrades that impact what inventory displays and what options are displayed during the booking process (such as a room upgrade or an upgrade request for example).


----------



## VacayKat

Rolltydr said:


> You, and I, were taking advantage of a loophole. That loophole is being closed. You’re mad about it and blaming Wyndham and unknown complainers out to get VIP owners (and mega-renters). Corporations, and law enforcement, decide which rules or laws to focus their efforts on based on the consequences at any given point in time. The consequences of allowing owners to continue to reap benefits they did not pay for has become too great for Wyndham to ignore. You can be mad about it all you want, and you can blame Wyndham or any other boogeyman, but the fault lies at the feet of the owners (mega-renters) who are abusing the system. I’m done.


I think the problem I have when folks roll out the ‘mega-renters’ argument is - where is the data to support your argument? Perhaps this argument has basis in fact, but if the percentage of folks who own VIP  and resale is very small then those who have VIP AND have unseemly amounts of resale that they are reaping benefits from [which only affects Wyndham’s financials] is ridiculously small.
You are right that this email made me mad. It was targeted as an enhancement to me, a benefit to me, a GREAT thing that Wyndham in its benevolence is doing FOR me. Wyndham should have said ‘Look, we know we’ve told you this would be the way it was from the beginning, and we are sorry for leading you on. We are no longer allowing the practice of pooling all owner points in a single account. At this time we have decided it no longer is in our best interests and we are choosing to enforce a rule that we have not enforced before, and in fact many of you may have been sold developer points under the promise that we would not enforce the rule. We are sorry for any challenges this might pose, we have set up a dedicated line for resale owners who might wish to explore options for reducing their resale ownership.’ Had they done so, I might have respected their position. What they did was, again, make me feel like their moves are intended to reduce my personal enjoyment of the product I have sunk money into. So yes- I blame Wyndham for how they are handling this, and how they have failed to train their staff and failed to ensure their sales do not promise things their company does not support. And before anyone says listening to sales is stupid, yes that is true, but sales lying is unethical and a company that cares about the rules should damn well care if their people follow them.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> For anyone who may not have actually watched the video and caught how this change is being implemented, below is a screenshot from the video for ease of reference.  There's an additional field provided when performing the inventory search called Purchase Type where you will choose from one of two buckets:
> 
> Developer
> Resale
> This makes sense given that the type of points used will impact inventory availability for VIP owners due to RARP, discounts, and free upgrades that impact what inventory displays and what options are displayed during the booking process (such as a room upgrade or an upgrade request for example).
> 
> View attachment 37737


What I’d like to know is how this affects folks with multiple contracts. 
And seriously, since Wyndham can’t even get the points totals to match on our accounts, are we supposed to just trust them that they will keep the buckets perfect? As I pointed out to the owner care person I talked to, they can’t even get my account set up right to allow me to book all the resorts my accounts allow me to book - and it’s been like 18 months I’ve been complaining, why is this new problem high priority when they can’t even get their shit together?


----------



## troy12n

VacayKat said:


> You are right that this email made me mad. It was targeted as an enhancement to me, a benefit to me, a GREAT thing that Wyndham in its benevolence is doing FOR me. Wyndham should have said ‘Look, we know we’ve told you this would be the way it was from the beginning, and we are sorry for leading you on.



Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to. 

Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for. 

Wyndham looked the other way for years. 

We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason. 

Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...


----------



## rickandcindy23

troy12n said:


> Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to.
> 
> Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for.
> 
> Wyndham looked the other way for years.
> 
> We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason.
> 
> Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...


All true.  I don't know that the poster you are talking about has been a Wyndham owner long enough to get the benefits we did for many years.  I am okay with everything, as long as I can give back my resale contracts through Ovations and they don't drain my wallet to do it.


----------



## 55plus

rickandcindy23 said:


> All true.  I don't know that the poster you are talking about has been a Wyndham owner long enough to get the benefits we did for many years.  I am okay with everything, as long as I can give back my resale contracts through Ovations and they don't drain my wallet to do it.


Does Ovations even exist anymore? Isn't it now called Certified Exit? Either way, Wyndham can chose and pick which contracts they'll take back. Do they want the old non popular locations or the ones not in CWA? I'm sure they'll take back the high demand locations so they can roll them into CWA. CWA is the future of timesharing.


----------



## Broubal

dgalati said:


> Another VIP Loophole closed. This should really help availability for owners to book for personal use!


Absolutely agree, taking the big players out of the market they will have to charge even more now...


----------



## keno999

I don't think this change will really hurt me too bad since we just book for personal trips.  I regret that it's going to be more complicated in the future and there is no telling how bad your account will get screwed up when they roll out the changes in August.  I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly.  We'll see.

What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would.  It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.


----------



## Broubal

hjsweet2002 said:


> I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits.  And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past.  Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.


The sales weasels lips were moving..., sure you could use VIP benefits but not anymore..  It wasn't in writing..


----------



## troy12n

keno999 said:


> I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly.  We'll see.




That's the elephant in the room. Less people (resale owners) will be getting VIP upgrades because a percentage of their points will no longer be entitled to it. That leaves more upgrades to people who actually paid for the benefit (on all of our points)... and in theory, more larger suites in general because they will not be taken by auto-upgrades


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> Does Ovations even exist anymore? Isn't it now called Certified Exit? Either way, Wyndham can chose and pick which contracts they'll take back. Do they want the old non popular locations or the ones not in CWA? I'm sure they'll take back the high demand locations so they can roll them into CWA. CWA is the future of timesharing.


You are just guessing, basically.  

As I said before, we own Fairfield Bay and Kingsgate resale.  Low MF's.


----------



## bnoble

keno999 said:


> What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would. It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.


There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.


----------



## rickandcindy23

keno999 said:


> I don't think this change will really hurt me too bad since we just book for personal trips.  I regret that it's going to be more complicated in the future and there is no telling how bad your account will get screwed up when they roll out the changes in August.  I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly.  We'll see.
> 
> What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would.  It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.


So agree with you.  Loopholes closed, we need to move on as owners who took advantage of the loopholes for years.  I am good with it.  I have said that before.


----------



## rickandcindy23

bnoble said:


> There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.


I hope I am not on your ignore list, Brian.


----------



## VacayKat

troy12n said:


> Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to.
> 
> Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for.
> 
> Wyndham looked the other way for years.
> 
> We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason.
> 
> Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...


I LOVE the you assumed I had this benefit for years. I LOVE that you think I have been the barnacle on the bottom of Wyndham's ship. 
You do not know for how long, nor do you know when I was made the promises. The fact that these promises continue to be made even as Wyndham Corporate has been moving to change the rules, is in my opinion unethical. 
Please don't make assumptions as to how long I 'had something for nothing' that Wyndham promised me to be the privilege I was paying for. I have NOT received these benefits for years.


----------



## VacayKat

troy12n said:


> That's the elephant in the room. Less people (resale owners) will be getting VIP upgrades because a percentage of their points will no longer be entitled to it. That leaves more upgrades to people who actually paid for the benefit (on all of our points)... and in theory, more larger suites in general because they will not be taken by auto-upgrades


If what Wyndham states is true, that this change affects a ridiculously small percentage of owners, then that theory is unlikely to happen.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Eric B said:


> Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have.  Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.
> 
> Some odd points in this email are the promised deposit of complimentary points in the next use year and the extended window for PDF to move non-VIP points to a future year.


Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email.  No way will I get any points.  I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.


----------



## Ty1on

Broubal said:


> The sales weasels lips were moving..., sure you could use VIP benefits but not anymore..  It wasn't in writing..



I believe you are correct, as there is no such thing as "a small VIP contract."  Probably they were trying to get him to Silver with a 200K contract and 200K Bonus.  After the bonus expired, he'd have been standing there holding the non-VIP bag.


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email.  No way will I get any points.  I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.



I'm guessing they put that in to soften the blow a little.


----------



## 55plus

Broubal said:


> Absolutely agree, taking the big players out of the market they will have to charge even more now...


The resort restrictions still need to be in place to weed out the mega renters. High demand location reservations at 13 months aren't really affected the change other than maybe a few fees. Without the timeframe/guest certificate restrictions they'll continue to reserve a large amount of timeframes at the more desirable resorts using ARP. Or Wyndham can implement a guest certificate limitation along with some other restrictions may fix the problem Maybe after several years when all the mega renter are gone they'll lift the restrictions and things will be back to normal for the owner who uses their points for personal travel, not for commence.


----------



## Manzana

Another thought and this is just wishful thinking but this makes Worldmark and Wyndham systems a little more similar in that Worldmark resale cannot use their vip travel share.   Might be easier to  combine the systems much like they have with Shell.  I doubt it but trying to find a silver lining.   I will miss the privilege of having VIP for my resale points but I am more concerned about how confusing it will get.  In my opinion the cleanest way to do this would be to make separate accounts for resale and retail.   However I learned to understand the system as it is now so with a little learning curve I am sure I can adjust.


----------



## 55plus

Eric B said:


> Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have.  Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.
> 
> Some odd points in this email are the promised deposit of complimentary points in the next use year and the extended window for PDF to move non-VIP points to a future year.


I still don't understand what the, "complimentary points in the next use year" actually means?


----------



## VacayKat

55plus said:


> Does Ovations even exist anymore? Isn't it now called Certified Exit? Either way, Wyndham can chose and pick which contracts they'll take back. Do they want the old non popular locations or the ones not in CWA? I'm sure they'll take back the high demand locations so they can roll them into CWA. CWA is the future of timesharing.


So I was trying to ask Certified Exit questions yesterday. I wanted to know which contracts they considered non VIP and what my offer was. [we have a complicated account, and I think just one is resale, but it could be a couple that add up to that amount. But there is no way for us to know because of how Wyndham imports and reassigns account numbers] The lady on the phone not only was unable to even tell (or maybe too lazy to look) which contracts were which, but when I finally convinced her to look into them, she hung up on me. 
I would wager that if Wyndham doesn't set up a dedicated line for this type of transaction it's going to overwhelm the folks who are working in the department and  respond in a way that clearly indicates they would rather be working anywhere else.


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> The resort restrictions still need to be in place to weed out the mega renters. High demand location reservations at 13 months aren't really affected the change other than maybe a few fees. Without the timeframe/guest certificate restrictions they'll continue to reserve a large amount of timeframes at the more desirable resorts using ARP. Or Wyndham can implement a guest certificate limitation along with some other restrictions may fix the problem Maybe after several years when all the mega renter are gone they'll lift the restrictions and things will be back to normal for the owner who uses their points for personal travel, not for commence.



A megarenter might be leveraging 20 million points with 1 million legit developer points.  I think this is going to put a bigger dent in that small handful than you think.


----------



## bnoble

Manzana said:


> Might be easier to combine the systems much like they have with Shell.


WM is a pure trust product, while Wyn is a blended trust/owned product. I think combining them would be very difficult. I also don't see much reason to do so--both systems are already large enough that the blended size isn't a sales tool. Heck with Club Pass, they are "combined" from a sales floor perspective.


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> I still don't understand what the, "complimentary points in the next use year" actually means?



I understand it as depositing some customer satisfaction type points in your next use year if you are one of the affected owners.  (Yes I giggled while I typed that)


----------



## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> Heck with Club Pass, they are "combined" from a sales floor perspective.


----------



## VacayKat

Ty1on said:


> I understand it as depositing some customer satisfaction type points in your next use year if you are one of the affected owners.  (Yes I giggled while I typed that)


I have to say as an owner who has had life-changes that preclude using the amount of points we currently own until new job vacation is built back up adding more points just makes it so that we have to try to figure out how to get others to use them or to bank them - which essentially contributes to the problem we're seeing now with the glut of points from covid roll overs. How about just a MF credit and call it good??


----------



## 55plus

Ty1on said:


> A megarenter might be leveraging 20 million points with 1 million legit developer points.  I think this is going to put a bigger dent in that small handful than you think.


Unless restrictions are kept in place and/or implement GC limits/restrictions, renting won't be affected that much. Wyndham need to do this to clean house and bring the Club back to what it is intended to be. Just my opinion.


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> I have to say as an owner who has had life-changes that preclude using the amount of points we currently own until new job vacation is built back up adding more points just makes it so that we have to try to figure out how to get others to use them or to bank them - which essentially contributes to the problem we're seeing now with the glut of points from covid roll overs. How about just a MF credit and call it good??



My guess is that they would be depositing points from the developer pool on which they are already paying maintenance fees, but a MF credit would be an additional hard cost to the company, as the associations still need to be paid.


----------



## Eric B

55plus said:


> I still don't understand what the, "complimentary points in the next use year" actually means?



I believe the simplest way for them to accomplish that would be as "Bonus" contracts similar to how they do when you buy from them.  As for how many they provide, I'm not sure what they're thinking.  Since the complimentary points are to be VIP-eligible, I would guess that they are either matching an owner's VIP-eligible buckets or providing enough to offset the reservations they have made for the year under the assumption that VIP benefits would apply.  They've kind of set themselves up to have a bunch of reservations already on the books for stays with upgrades requested that could have been using non-VIP-eligible points and unwinding them would mess up a lot of arrangements.


----------



## 55plus

Has anyone contacted RonP to let him know the gig is finally up?


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> Has anyone contacted RonP to let him know the gig is finally up?



Isn't he out of the game?


----------



## 55plus

Eric B said:


> I believe the simplest way for them to accomplish that would be as "Bonus" contracts similar to how they do when you buy from them.  As for how many they provide, I'm not sure what they're thinking.  Since the complimentary points are to be VIP-eligible, I would guess that they are either matching an owner's VIP-eligible buckets or providing enough to offset the reservations they have made for the year under the assumption that VIP benefits would apply.  They've kind of set themselves up to have a bunch of reservations already on the books for stays with upgrades requested that could have been using non-VIP-eligible points and unwinding them would mess up a lot of arrangements.


This make a lot of sense to me now. If this it what Wyndham is doing, good for them. It shows, 'Wyndham Cares.'


----------



## 55plus

Ty1on said:


> Isn't he out of the game?


Yes he is, but I know he'd be interested in this development. He was a Rockstar when it came to rentals and playing the system.


----------



## Rolltydr

VacayKat said:


> I have to say as an owner who has had life-changes that preclude using the amount of points we currently own until new job vacation is built back up adding more points just makes it so that we have to try to figure out how to get others to use them or to bank them - which essentially contributes to the problem we're seeing now with the glut of points from covid roll overs. How about just a MF credit and call it good??


Or, Donate your Wyndham points to Vacations for Vets


----------



## keno999

bnoble said:


> There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.


I get that.  I certainly have gotten help from a lot of folks in in the Wyndham corner of TUG.  It's not a good look but everyone has a bad day and I try not to judge too harshly.


----------



## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> WM is a pure trust product, while Wyn is a blended trust/owned product. I think combining them would be very difficult. I also don't see much reason to do so--both systems are already large enough that the blended size isn't a sales tool. Heck with Club Pass, they are "combined" from a sales floor perspective.



Unless the majority of each respective timeshare ownership block were to approve an actual merging of the systems - nothing like this is even legally permissible. At best the online system could be enhanced to offer Club Pass type features electronically. This topic was raised at the Austin annual owners meeting as well and the COO indicated to everyone during the Q&A session exactly what I’m stating here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.



And frankly, a good percentage of the basis of these grudges has been a lack of understanding of VIP benefits and how their costs are shouldered.


----------



## Manzana

bnoble said:


> WM is a pure trust product, while Wyn is a blended trust/owned product. I think combining them would be very difficult. I also don't see much reason to do so--both systems are already large enough that the blended size isn't a sales tool. Heck with Club Pass, they are "combined" from a sales floor perspective.


You are correct.   I really meant making booking through Club Pass online possible.   As you would be able to book with retail points not resale now it would be easier to breakdown.


----------



## paxsarah

As someone who's trying to parse what any of this means in practice for us non-VIPs (assuming we'll have a similar dashboard of benefits, just minus the VIP-specific ones), I have questions about two possibly related things included on Wyndham's informational webpage. One is in the picture at the top of the page:



The top line is simply "Club Wyndham Plus" with a subheader of "Resale." The next line has "Home Resort" followed by "Wyndham Bonnet Creek Resort" and then a subheader of "Developer."

Why don't the resale points have a home resort? Did they mean "Club Wyndham Access" (which would be a home resort, but it wasn't labeled as such) where they put "Club Wyndham Plus"? Should I not worry too much because this mockup/test screen is clearly fantastical? (Nobody's going to have a million Discovery points plus Presidential Reserve, or 44 RARP transactions available, etc.) Should I worry a lot because whoever decided to use this as an example clearly had no idea of what would look realistic to an actual owner, and thus how is this going to be implemented with all staff trained in the next 3+ weeks?

So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:

Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?

Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.


----------



## jwalk03

I wonder if someone who only owns developer bought points will see that drop down with resale option?  I sure hope so!  Maybe it will make more owners realize that there is a better way than buying from Wyndham!!


----------



## Ty1on

paxsarah said:


> As someone who's trying to parse what any of this means in practice for us non-VIPs (assuming we'll have a similar dashboard of benefits, just minus the VIP-specific ones), I have questions about two possibly related things included on Wyndham's informational webpage. One is in the picture at the top of the page:
> View attachment 37743
> The top line is simply "Club Wyndham Plus" with a subheader of "Resale." The next line has "Home Resort" followed by "Wyndham Bonnet Creek Resort" and then a subheader of "Developer."
> 
> Why don't the resale points have a home resort? Did they mean "Club Wyndham Access" (which would be a home resort, but it wasn't labeled as such) where they put "Club Wyndham Plus"? Should I not worry too much because this mockup/test screen is clearly fantastical? (Nobody's going to have a million Discovery points plus Presidential Reserve, or 44 RARP transactions available, etc.) Should I worry a lot because whoever decided to use this as an example clearly had no idea of what would look realistic to an actual owner, and thus how is this going to be implemented with all staff trained in the next 3+ weeks?
> 
> So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:
> 
> Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
> What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?
> 
> Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.



Searching under VIP points would reveal RARP reservations that wouldn't be visible under non-VIP, and also for Express period reservations, I imagine it would reveal the reservations at the points discount rate for VIP but not non-VIP.  Also if I'm not wrong, Margaritaville is only available to MVC contracts and VIP, so that should show up under VIP but not non-VIP non-MVC.

As for your other observations, I caught that with Club Wyndham Plus too, and just assumed it to be a mockup.  They can't take home resort ARP away on resales.  Uhhh.  Can they?  Maybe they plan to give a permanent advanced reservation period for all resorts to VIP, that's the only way the bullet point would make sense distinct from MVC and RARP already mentioned.


----------



## Ty1on

jwalk03 said:


> I wonder if someone who only owns developer bought points will see that drop down with resale option?  I sure hope so!  Maybe it will make more owners realize that there is a better way than buying from Wyndham!!



I like the way you think!


----------



## WhiskeyJack

chapjim said:


> Does anyone have an idea what "balance your account for the current Use Year" means?  How will they do it?  Whatever it means, what are the chances they'll do it correctly?




I think as well this could be the messiest item to implement.  Why didn't they just make this effective starting Jan 1st?  I know not all have use years that start then but likely majority do. This language is from the website:
"With this enhancement, your account will be updated for the current Use Year and benefits will be adjusted according to whether your reservation is made with VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points">

My assumption on what this will mean is:
0> Wyn will look at your contracts and create two point buckets (VIP and Non-VIP) that at the start will equal the points from the contracts.
1>  Wyn will go through every reservation made this year in your account.  To get buckets right I assume they will start Jan 1st and progress from there.
2> Each existing reservation you made, Wyn will determine if if had to be made with VIP eligible or not; i.e. did you get a discount and/or an upgrade, or was it an RARP.
3> Based on decision in number 2 they will subtract the point value for the reservation from the appropriate bucket.
4> Any reservations that were made but have been subsequently cancelled I think they will likely just ignore those (i hope so at least).  Would make it much more messy if not.

After their adjustments are made you will end up with a points balance in the 2 buckets.  I think it likely the point total of the two buckets after the adjustment could be different than your current point total before the adjustment and if so would be lower in total.  Because it could be lower, that is the reason for the complimentary points to be given next year.

The reason I think it could be lower is that the VIP bucket could be exhausted prior to reservations being made that will be considered VIP reservations.  If that happens it seems to me they would then assume that reservation should have been made with Non-VIP points and adjust accordingly.  

For example, if your VIP bucket has been exhausted, and after the point in time they considered it exhausted, 
a new reservation was made that got the discount and/or an upgrade, 
then Wyn will assume that reservation needed to be made with Non VIP points 
and instead of deducting the value of points used when the reservation was made (say half a 2BD that was upgraded to a 3BD) they will deduct the value of the 3BD unit without a discount from the Non VIP bucket.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Ron P is still in the rental game.  Just fyi.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> As someone who's trying to parse what any of this means in practice for us non-VIPs (assuming we'll have a similar dashboard of benefits, just minus the VIP-specific ones), I have questions about two possibly related things included on Wyndham's informational webpage. One is in the picture at the top of the page:
> View attachment 37743
> The top line is simply "Club Wyndham Plus" with a subheader of "Resale." The next line has "Home Resort" followed by "Wyndham Bonnet Creek Resort" and then a subheader of "Developer."
> 
> Why don't the resale points have a home resort? Did they mean "Club Wyndham Access" (which would be a home resort, but it wasn't labeled as such) where they put "Club Wyndham Plus"? Should I not worry too much because this mockup/test screen is clearly fantastical? (Nobody's going to have a million Discovery points plus Presidential Reserve, or 44 RARP transactions available, etc.) Should I worry a lot because whoever decided to use this as an example clearly had no idea of what would look realistic to an actual owner, and thus how is this going to be implemented with all staff trained in the next 3+ weeks?



I had many of the same observations regarding the use of what is obviously a multi-use case test account that is not a good representation of an average VIP owner.  I think they were trying to show the various different points buckets that could exist here - especially given there is a "Discovery" points bucket included - which ordinarily wouldn't even exist for a permanent owner.  In particular, I took note of the "Rental points" bucket in the graphic.  Given these changes are designed to explicitly discourage rental activity and to target VIP owners that rent - that seems like something that could cause some heartburn if owner's notice that bucket.  It also makes me wonder aloud - what is a rental points bucket for?  Is that an EH points bucket in essence?  



> So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:
> 
> Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
> What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?



Wish I knew what that meant as well, along with a more nuanced and detailed definition of the "Complimentary points" item as others have already brought up on this thread.  I think it will be more of a "goodwill points" bucket as opposed to a "bonus points" bucket - but that's just pure speculation on my part.  I also dearly hope that Wyndham will share - at least with the impacted owners - how the complimentary points are being calculated - such that it takes the mystery out of this item - because we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that VIP owners who receive complimentary points will be comparing what they received and if left to speculate on our own about the how/why - IME it's not going to be a net positive for Wyndham.



> Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.



I suspect the points buckets will apply to any/all owners that have a hybrid retail/resale ownership - you'll have to choose which bucket to use when making reservations. I suspect the initial communication that some of us received (myself included) that are hybrid VIP owners - was only sent to like owners.  A broader communication will likely be sent out for all non-VIP hybrid owners closer to when the online system changes will go into effect.  Again pure speculation on my part to be clear.


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ron P is still in the rental game.  Just fyi.


With Wyndham?


----------



## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:
> 
> Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
> What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?
> 
> Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.


So it is possible they are stripping ARP from resale. Unlikely, but possible. More likely it is the extended length of booking for certain options that VIP get that no longer count. They probably are just testing wording.

Yes, I think they will implement buckets for ALL owners, not just VIP. What if the owner added more points - don’t want the entire system to change and then have to explain changes at that point. Think of it as ripping off the resale bandage.


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> In particular, I took note of the "Rental points" bucket in the graphic. Given these changes are designed to explicitly discourage rental activity and to target VIP owners that rent - that seems like something that could cause some heartburn if owner's notice that bucket. It also makes me wonder aloud - what is a rental points bucket for? Is that an EH points bucket in essence?


EH - oh, that's possible, considering that my guess is Wyndham will be more strongly pushing people to rent via that avenue moving forward.

What I originally assumed that was is that we're limited to renting extra points from Wyndham (at $12/k) up to our total number of points owned (not counting PIC or bonus points), so I thought that was maybe a tally of our remaining allowed rental allotment from Wyndham. Which if that's what it is probably doesn't need to be that prominent because I hope nobody's spending up to their entire points allotment at $12/k (and if they are, they don't need it justified and codified by being that prominent on the dashboard!).


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> So it is possible they are stripping ARP from resale. Unlikely, but possible. More likely it is the extended length of booking for certain options that VIP get that no longer count. They probably are just testing wording.
> 
> Yes, I think they will implement buckets for ALL owners, not just VIP. What if the owner added more points - don’t want the entire system to change and then have to explain changes at that point. Think of it as ripping off the resale bandage.



Also, bucket makes a difference for CWA ARP even for non-VIP


----------



## 55plus

WhiskeyJack said:


> I think as well this could be the messiest item to implement.  Why didn't they just make this effective starting Jan 1st?  I know not all have use years that start then but likely majority do. This language is from the website:
> "With this enhancement, your account will be updated for the current Use Year and benefits will be adjusted according to whether your reservation is made with VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points">
> 
> My assumption on what this will mean is:
> 0> Wyn will look at your contracts and create two point buckets (VIP and Non-VIP) that at the start will equal the points from the contracts.
> 1>  Wyn will go through every reservation made this year in your account.  To get buckets right I assume they will start Jan 1st and progress from there.
> 2> Each existing reservation you made, Wyn will determine if if had to be made with VIP eligible or not; i.e. did you get a discount and/or an upgrade, or was it an RARP.
> 3> Based on decision in number 2 they will subtract the point value for the reservation from the appropriate bucket.
> 4> Any reservations that were made but have been subsequently cancelled I think they will likely just ignore those (i hope so at least).  Would make it much more messy if not.
> 
> After their adjustments are made you will end up with a points balance in the 2 buckets.  I think it likely the point total of the two buckets after the adjustment could be different than your current point total before the adjustment and if so would be lower in total.  Because it could be lower, that is the reason for the complimentary points to be given next year.
> 
> The reason I think it could be lower is that the VIP bucket could be exhausted prior to reservations being made that will be considered VIP reservations.  If that happens it seems to me they would then assume that reservation should have been made with Non-VIP points and adjust accordingly.
> 
> For example, if your VIP bucket has been exhausted, and after the point in time they considered it exhausted,
> a new reservation was made that got the discount and/or an upgrade,
> then Wyn will assume that reservation needed to be made with Non VIP points
> and instead of deducting the value of points used when the reservation was made (say half a 2BD that was upgraded to a 3BD) they will deduct the value of the 3BD unit without a discount from the Non VIP bucket.


Here's an argument. An owner with both VIP and resale points had no choice when making a reservation. VIP benefit reservations were automatic when it comes to GCs, HK, discounts within 60 days. The only option is whether to select an upgrade or not. On other words, the website did not allow an owner to chose between VIP or resale points.


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> Here's an argument. An owner with both VIP and resale points had no choice when making a reservation. VIP benefit reservations were automatic when it comes to GCs, HK, discounts within 60 days. The only option is whether to select an upgrade or not. On other words, the website did not allow an owner to chose between VIP or resale points.



It did not, and that's why resales enjoyed VIP benefits prior to this change.  With the change, the owner will clearly be able to reserve from a specific points pool with whatever privileges are afforded that pool.


----------



## bnoble

paxsarah said:


> One is in the picture at the top of the page


I'm not sure it makes sense to try to figure much out from the collateral they have up so far. I'm waiting to see what they actually deploy--which will probably come along with some owner education materials.


----------



## VacayKat

55plus said:


> Here's an argument. An owner with both VIP and resale points had no choice when making a reservation. VIP benefit reservations were automatic when it comes to GCs, HK, discounts within 60 days. The only option is whether to select an upgrade or not. On other words, the website did not allow an owner to chose between VIP or resale points.


HK and transactions also need to be factored as they reallocate the vacations. Say a person has 500k of both developer and resale and has a use year beginning in July. If they have made reservations with all those points then not only will upgrades need to be removed, but HK and transactions need to be assigned. What if they have reserved and cancelled all of those vacations three or 4 times? Will they owe money to wyndham for the transactions they made that they didn’t have for free?
I think there really is no way to guess what Wyndham might do.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Ty1on said:


> With Wyndham?


Yep.


----------



## rickandcindy23

bnoble said:


> I'm not sure it makes sense to try to figure much out from the collateral they have up so far. I'm waiting to see what they actually deploy--which will probably come along with some owner education materials.


I hope they give us some better information.  I am sort of freaking out over here.  The heat of Colorado July isn't helping one bit, either.


----------



## troy12n

WhiskeyJack said:


> I think as well this could be the messiest item to implement.  Why didn't they just make this effective starting Jan 1st?  I know not all have use years that start then but likely majority do.



Probably because newer owners are *screaming* about this (the inventory issue), right now. And Wyndham wants to look like they are doing something. Pushing it off 4 more months only exacerbates the situation, or pushes the can down the road.... 

This is something they have likely been working on for a long time, and probably moved up implementation because of the outrage on Facebook about resort availability. Whether or not that is an actual issue, or a perceived one, or just a owner education issue, regardless, this gives Wyndham an opportunity to get tough on a segment of owners (the mega renters) who bring no real value to Wyndham, and cause negative PR for the organization. So they seem to be killing 2 or 3 birds with one stone, so to speak...


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> EH - oh, that's possible, considering that my guess is Wyndham will be more strongly pushing people to rent via that avenue moving forward.
> 
> What I originally assumed that was is that we're limited to renting extra points from Wyndham (at $12/k) up to our total number of points owned (not counting PIC or bonus points), so I thought that was maybe a tally of our remaining allowed rental allotment from Wyndham. Which if that's what it is probably doesn't need to be that prominent because I hope nobody's spending up to their entire points allotment at $12/k (and if they are, they don't need it justified and codified by being that prominent on the dashboard!).



Oh that's a great point - I didn't think about the $12/1000 point rental bucket idea.  It could just as well be a representation of what you're referring to.  I guess only time will tell come mid-August!


----------



## Roger830

troy12n said:


> Probably because newer owners are *screaming* about this (the inventory issue), right now. And Wyndham wants to look like they are doing something. Pushing it off 4 more months only exacerbates the situation, or pushes the can down the road....



The basic problem that for most resorts the timeshare model is flawed.

If all resorts are sold out and slow seasons are not booked from the beginning of the year then some members will be stuck with points that can't book anything later in the year.

Couple this with most members rolling over points from last year (I won't mention vip discounts) there are far more points than available days that can be booked. 

 Even if the vip change was done last year the same situation of more points than availability would still exist now.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Oh that's a great point - I didn't think about the $12/1000 point rental bucket idea.  It could just as well be a representation of what you're referring to.  I guess only time will tell come mid-August!


I also had the same thoughts on that as @paxsarah did.  Doubt it is about owners renting to regular folks, more about what they rented from wyndham.


----------



## VAlegacy

Will this change be counterproductive for Wyndham?  It seems as though by separating, Wyndham is legitamizing resale.
What percentage of Wyndham owners even knows of the resale market?


----------



## rickandcindy23

It's really the unknowns that are troubling.


----------



## Eric B

So, since I have both developer and resale points in my account and my VIPG guest confirmations can't be used with the resale points, do I get 2 non-VIP guest confirmations and 10 VIPG ones?

Since I haven't had to deal with reservation transactions or housekeeping in a while, do those get rounded up or down when it's not an even multiple of 70K & 77K?  My guess is that it's down, but figured I'd check since the member's directory isn't any more clear on that than anything else.


----------



## am1

jwalk03 said:


> I wonder if someone who only owns developer bought points will see that drop down with resale option?  I sure hope so!  Maybe it will make more owners realize that there is a better way than buying from Wyndham!!


I am surprised they went with those terms.  Best not acknowledge it like that.  Then when one asks about re selling their ownership what can the salespeople say?


----------



## HitchHiker71

VAlegacy said:


> Will this change be counterproductive for Wyndham?  It seems as though by separating, Wyndham is legitamizing resale.
> What percentage of Wyndham owners even knows of the resale market?



It's not really a change - but rather a compliance issue coming into full swing.  For years all of the documentation for CWP owners has either directly stated that VIP benefits don't apply toward resale points - or any verbiage either way is just plain omitted altogether - leaving it as a perk.  The fact that Wyndham is now enforcing the policy directive via the online systems many years after stating the policies in the documentation isn't surprising.  Many of us have expected a change like this to come eventually - though admittedly I didn't think it would come this quickly - I figured it would align with the next iteration of changes to the VIP program itself - but that's the game we play when it comes to speculation - it's anyone's guess at the end of the day.


----------



## VacayKat

Eric B said:


> So, since I have both developer and resale points in my account and my VIPG guest confirmations can't be used with the resale points, do I get 2 non-VIP guest confirmations and 10 VIPG ones?
> 
> Since I haven't had to deal with reservation transactions or housekeeping in a while, do those get rounded up or down when it's not an even multiple of 70K & 77K?  My guess is that it's down, but figured I'd check since the member's directory isn't any more clear on that than anything else.


I asked about the HK and the transactions. It is one per X, and you don’t get the second one until you hit the next threshold, or X*2.


----------



## HitchHiker71

* Deleted


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> That's an excellent question on the number of GCs for the resale bucket for hybrid owners - I'll add this to our list to send to Wyndham for follow up, along with the rounding questions on the HKs and RTs.


From my conversation everything about the accounts will be separate- however the question that should be asked is if you use points from both buckets for the reservation - which bucket does the HK, GC, transaction come from.

*edited to add:*
well i guess if I read things would be clear. From the website:

Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your Non-VIP Eligible Points.
Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your VIP Eligible Points.


----------



## am1

The big question is how can one go about getting more developer points cheaply?  Possibly do a trade in?  Do El Cid resale points still count as developer? I had a 1.1 million Grand Desert contract purchased for 6k that came in as a retail.  A nice Christmas present from Wyndham.  Also had a bunch of unknown co-owners on my account which I could hold reservations in.  

At my peak I had 3 Platinum accounts with a 308k retail purchase and PICing 2 3 bedrooms.  For a while did not mean much until it was 15 guest confirmations per millions so I got 90 free to start the year.  Then it was could only have 10 reservations per resort per night.  I had 30 in my accounts at peak times and had to use rent points in other accounts to book reservations 30-50 or so.


----------



## am1

VacayKat said:


> From my conversation everything about the accounts will be separate- however the question that should be asked is if you use points from both buckets for the reservation - which bucket does the HK, GC, transaction come from.


Seems resale.  As if resale points are used with VIP points no vip benefits apply.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> From my conversation everything about the accounts will be separate- however the question that should be asked is if you use points from both buckets for the reservation - which bucket does the HK, GC, transaction come from.
> 
> *edited to add:*
> well i guess if I read things would be clear. From the website:
> 
> Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your Non-VIP Eligible Points.
> Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your VIP Eligible Points.



Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...
> 
> View attachment 37744


Seem to be having a bit of a mind-meld there, lol


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's not really a change - but rather a compliance issue coming into full swing.  For years all of the documentation for CWP owners has either directly stated that VIP benefits don't apply toward resale points - or any verbiage either way is just plain omitted altogether - leaving it as a perk.  The fact that Wyndham is now enforcing the policy directive via the online systems many years after stating the policies in the documentation isn't surprising.  Many of us have expected a change like this to come eventually - though admittedly I didn't think it would come this quickly - I figured it would align with the next iteration of changes to the VIP program itself - but that's the game we play when it comes to speculation - it's anyone's guess at the end of the day.




Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements- 
"Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."

The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."

The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program.  That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.

All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to.  I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them).  Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery.  If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down.  That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday.  I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.


----------



## VacayKat

Eric B said:


> Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements-
> "Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."
> 
> The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."
> 
> The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program.  That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.
> 
> All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to.  I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them).  Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery.  If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down.  That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday.  I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.


Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.


----------



## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.



There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change.  Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...
> 
> View attachment 37744



One other item that isn't as clear as it should be is the discussion of "borrowing" in the first two bullets. The term "Borrowing Points" is a term of art in Club Wyndham Plus that is actually defined on page 249 of the owner's directory (2018-2019) to mean using points from the next Use Year in the current one.  Is the "borrowing" of points from one of the buckets limited to ones from the next Use Year or is it being extended to include movement of points from the VIP-eligible bucket to the non-VIP-eligible bucket?


----------



## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.


Its a sales strategy that has worked well. Maybe write Mike Brown and explain how you were hoodwinked into buying and  believing it was a benefit. Please feel free to post his reply.


----------



## dgalati

Ty1on said:


> There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change.  Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.


I doubt that the sales team is not informed. They are working every angle to sell points its their job and livelihood. Believing otherwise is just nonsense.


----------



## VAlegacy

Glad I never did a PIC.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> I doubt that the sales team is not informed. They are working every angle to sell points its their job and livelihood. Believing otherwise is just nonsense.



I disagree based upon my own experience working within and managing sales oriented technology teams and organizations. The frameworks used for successful technical product management also specifically dictate that sales or any other production oriented operational division should in no way be informed of any planned changes until the changes are slated to move into production. To do otherwise invites chaos on multiple levels, including but not limited to excuses employed by the sales organization for not meeting quotas/goals. If a change is being planned that would in any way even potentially negatively impact sales goals - which is the lifeblood of most companies - it will not be shared with anyone in the sales organization by design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have.  Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.


Contact Wyndham management for what? To say VIP owners want to keep playing a loophole that was clearly spelled out in the directory as a non benefit. Do you really think my posts were intended to have a bad effect? I was calling out abuse that took away availability for owners to book for personal use. A lot of VIP owners just didn't want to see the writing on the wall.


----------



## jwalk03

HitchHiker71 said:


> I disagree based upon my own experience working within and managing sales oriented technology teams and organizations. The frameworks used for successful technical product management also specifically dictate that sales or any other production oriented operational division should in no way be informed of any planned changes until the changes are slated to move into production. To do otherwise invites chaos on multiple levels, including but not limited to excuses employed by the sales organization for not meeting quotas/goals. If a change is being planned that would in any way even potentially negatively impact sales goals - which is the lifeblood of most companies - it will not be shared with anyone in the sales organization by design.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agree completely with this.  I work for a large corporation and the absolute last people we tell anything about product changes to is the front line staff.  As soon as they know it leaks to the media, so everything is kept tented until then, with only those that need to know granted access under the tent!  Everyone allowed under the tent also has to sign binding non-disclosure agreements.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements-
> "Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."
> 
> The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."
> 
> The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program. That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.
> 
> All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to. I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them). Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery. If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down. That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday. I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.



The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VacayKat

Ty1on said:


> There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change.  Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.


And that’s on the company.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It may have been a very small proportion of owners but I feel it was a very large amount of points. One poster said he used 130 GC's.. This abuse was stopped because it freed up availability and saved Wyndham $. Think about how much was saved by eliminating someone that used 130 free HK's at $159 each.


----------



## VacayKat

Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..


----------



## dgalati

[


VacayKat said:


> Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
> Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.


You are grasping straws here. It is not listed as a benefit and never was one. Just because sales sold it as a benefit doesn't make it one. That's unless you have it written in your purchase agreement as a benefit.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
> Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.



Am omission leaves it entirely up to interpretation. It in no way defines the opposite assumption. The membership directory went from explicitly stating that VIP benefits never applied toward resale points, to not saying anything either way. Couple this fact with the statement that the entire VIP program is subject to change at the sole discretion of Wyndham with no required notice, up to and including termination of the entire program itself - and it doesn’t take a genius to see the writing on the wall. 

It was always a question of when not if. Especially when we consider that the current CEO came from another timeshare company where many of these limitations for resale were already in place and working - including the points buckets we are now seeing - so he is simply implementing a known quantity here at Wyndham. This is my own perspective to be clear - but the dots connect up easily IMHO. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Am omission leaves it entirely up to interpretation. It in no way defines the opposite assumption. The membership directory went from explicitly stating that VIP benefits never applied toward resale points, to not saying anything either way. Couple this fact with the statement that the entire VIP program is subject to change at the sole discretion of Wyndham with no required notice, up to and including termination of the entire program itself - and it doesn’t take a genius to see the writing on the wall.
> 
> It was always a question of when not if. Especially when we consider that the current CEO came from another timeshare company where many of these limitations for resale were already in place and working - including the points buckets we are now seeing - so he is simply implementing a known quantity here at Wyndham. This is my own perspective to be clear - but the dots connect up easily IMHO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While I don’t think it does take a genius, I think it does take having all the info. I think that is hard for newer folks to find. And I think in part it hurts a little more for folks who were never given all the history either in contracts or by sales.
Remind me how long the new guy has been CEO?


----------



## paxsarah

VacayKat said:


> Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
> Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.


It doesn’t really matter why. All it takes is Wyndham saying “This is the rule now” to change it. They’ve said it, so it is. Deconstructing the history doesn’t change what they can do right this minute.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> While I don’t think it does take a genius, I think it does take having all the info. I think that is hard for newer folks to find. And I think in part it hurts a little more for folks who were never given all the history either in contracts or by sales.
> Remind me how long the new guy has been CEO?



I do feel for you. It really does suck for those who are generally a trusting type of person especially given the deceptive nature of the timeshare sales industry as a whole. The entire timeshare sales industry was and in many respects still is built to take advantage of good people’s trusting nature, along with a plethora of other strategies meant to manipulate people both in groups and 1:1 using trained personas. 

The CEO has been with Wyndham since April 2017. Prior to that he was at HGVC for over eight years. Screenshot of his LinkedIn job history below:







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 55plus

VacayKat said:


> Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..


I registered for it yesterday and received an email confirmation.


----------



## Silverdollar

VAlegacy said:


> Glad I never did a PIC.


This does not affect anything having to do with PIC Plus. It only applies to resales. PIC Plus points will be treated the same as before. I confirmed this with Owner Care today. If anyone hears otherwise, please let us know.


----------



## chapjim

VacayKat said:


> Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..



They better give the presenter a script that is more clearly written than the emails and letters being sent out or you'll come out more confused than ever.


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## troy12n

I had no idea the CEO of Wyndham is in his 40's or very early 50's... that's surprising.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Haven’t been an owner that long and didn’t pay enough attention to the verbiage regarding resale contracts when I purchased initially because I didn’t have any.  For my education, can you provide the wording that had been used and its  source?  It does make a difference, and may be why they prefer to settle rather than litigate.


----------



## VAlegacy

Silverdollar said:


> This does not affect anything having to do with PIC Plus. It only applies to resales. PIC Plus points will be treated the same as before. I confirmed this with Owner Care today. If anyone hears otherwise, please let us know.


I would have PIC'd to make all points eligible for VIP benefits, not just those obtained from PICs


----------



## Ty1on

VAlegacy said:


> Glad I never did a PIC.



A PIC doesn't count as resale points, so having done a PIC wouldn't have any negative consequence from this change.


----------



## Ty1on

VAlegacy said:


> I would have PIC'd to make all points eligible for VIP benefits, not just those obtained from PICs



PIC doesn't make resale points eligible for VIP.  VIP level is calculated using developer points, PIC points, and date of contracts (for grandfathering purposes)


----------



## bnoble

I think what @VAlegacy means is: they were considering using PIC plus a purchase to qualify an account that already had a fair number of resale points, to apply benefits to those points as well.


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> Haven’t been an owner that long and didn’t pay enough attention to the verbiage regarding resale contracts when I purchased initially because I didn’t have any.  For my education, can you provide the wording that had been used and its  source?  It does make a difference, and may be why they prefer to settle rather than litigate.


To save you time looking up past threads here it is. It was discussed many times over the last 3 years.


----------



## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> I think what @VAlegacy means is: they were considering using PIC plus a purchase to qualify an account that already had a fair number of resale points, to apply benefits to those points as well.



If that's what they are saying, then it's a good thing they didn't do PIC   

On that note, lots of people probably took the dive into developer points knowing they could leverage that purchase with benefits applicable to resale points.  I do also empathize with those being hurt by this change.


----------



## dgalati

Ty1on said:


> If that's what they are saying, then it's a good thing they didn't do PIC
> 
> On that note, lots of people probably took the dive into developer points knowing they could leverage that purchase with benefits applicable to resale points.  I do also empathize with those being hurt by this change.



It was never a benefit to use resale points with VIP benefits. It was discussed here many times but fell on deaf ears. It was a loophole that was abused by VIP owners. Please dont empathize or feel anyone was hurt in a change.. It was all clearly stated in the members directory.


----------



## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> It was never a benefit to use resale points with VIP benefits. It was discussed here many times but fell on deaf ears. It was a loophole that was abused by VIP owners. Please dont empathize or feel anyone was hurt in a change.. It was all clearly stated in the members directory.
> View attachment 37759


Okay Mr. Broken Record.  Some folks were coached by salesmen or otherwise believed this was a benefit of buying developer.  Rather than constantly trolling others, if you can't say something nice, how about only be an AH once and not repeatedly?


----------



## DeniseM

I am closing this thread for a timeout until tomorrow. If you want it reopened tomorrow, consider being civil.


----------



## DeniseM

Good morning, boys and girls! If I have to close this thread again, it won't be just a timeout.

Please attack the ISSUES not each other.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's not really a change - but rather a compliance issue coming into full swing.  For years all of the documentation for CWP owners has either directly stated that VIP benefits don't apply toward resale points - or any verbiage either way is just plain omitted altogether - leaving it as a perk.  The fact that Wyndham is now enforcing the policy directive via the online systems many years after stating the policies in the documentation isn't surprising.  Many of us have expected a change like this to come eventually - though admittedly I didn't think it would come this quickly - I figured it would align with the next iteration of changes to the VIP program itself - but that's the game we play when it comes to speculation - it's anyone's guess at the end of the day.



My apologies re: the historical wording on VIP-eligibility for resale points, it was pretty explicit in the 2014 directory that predated my initial Wyndham purchase and wasn’t in effect when I picked up resale points.  This does raise a pretty major question of why there haven’t been any shareholder lawsuits against Wyndham for the gross mismanagement and undercharging for those reservations over the years.


----------



## Ty1on

Eric B said:


> My apologies re: the historical wording on VIP-eligibility for resale points, it was pretty explicit in the 2014 directory that predated my initial Wyndham purchase and wasn’t in effect when I picked up resale points.  This does raise a pretty major question of why there haven’t been any shareholder lawsuits against Wyndham for the gross mismanagement and undercharging for those reservations over the years.



Wyndham hasn't undercharged for the reservations.  They backfill the discounted points with developer owned points.


----------



## Cyrus24

I'm not a moderator and have done my share of stirring over time, but, we do need to keep this conversation civil.  A few people are in for a real shocking adjustment as it relates to their individual Wyndham account while many others are looking forward to the change with something between excitement and real trepidation.  We need to respect how this is impacting the individual owners and their real like situations.  Whether you are VIP or not, owned resale or just developer or or owned a combination of resale/developer, we will all be impacted by the coming change.  I'd like us to stick to the change that is coming and look forward.  Sharing what we are seeing more than sharing what we are feeling about the feelings of others.  Try not to blame each other or attack.  We are all in this together.  Staying relaxed about the change is relatively easy for me.  As a VIPP with some resale, my biggest concern is over how Wyndham will roll this out from an IT perspective.  Wyndham has a horrible track record in that regard.  On that, I'm sure we all feel the same.  I may dump my Grand Desert resale just to eliminate clutter in my account, or, I may book a high demand week/resort at 10 months strictly for the purpose of renting or try to do the balancing act with 2 RT's and 2 HK's sitting over on the side, away from the VIP account.

What I'm interested in, mostly, is what we are seeing, things that can be backed up with data.  Little nuances, big bugs, changes in availability, rental prices, Extra Holidays, etc.  Those are things that impact myself and others.  Share that.  Let people vent about Wyndham, show some respect, don't brag and don't fuel the flames.  I like having threads open so that I can learn.  Let keep this one open.


----------



## Jan M.

Eric B said:


> My apologies re: the historical wording on VIP-eligibility for resale points, it was pretty explicit in the 2014 directory that predated my initial Wyndham purchase and wasn’t in effect when I picked up resale points.  This does raise a pretty major question of why there haven’t been any shareholder lawsuits against Wyndham for the gross mismanagement and undercharging for those reservations over the years.



This may answer your question. DH is a former president of the board of directors for the HOA where we live. There was something in our bylaws that hadn't been enforced but became necessary to enforce. The attorney for the HOA advised him that as long they announced that going forward it would be enforced for all residents they were in the clear. Wyndham announced it. 

We've owned since 2002 and were always told when we bought and I believe it was also in all the directories over the years that resale points aren't eligible to receive VIP benefits.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> My apologies re: the historical wording on VIP-eligibility for resale points, it was pretty explicit in the 2014 directory that predated my initial Wyndham purchase and wasn’t in effect when I picked up resale points.  This does raise a pretty major question of why there haven’t been any shareholder lawsuits against Wyndham for the gross mismanagement and undercharging for those reservations over the years.



No need to apologize - it's not necessarily common knowledge.  I haven't been an owner for that long either, having joined Wyndham in July 2018.  Yes - it was explicitly stated in the past member directories - but was omitted from the 2018-2019 directory as discussed.  Omission doesn't equate with tacit approval - it simply creates a gray area that we often refer to as a perk.  

As another poster already indicated - there really isn't any undercharging per se.  The VIP program overall, to the best of my understanding, is paid for via a mixture of the program fees and monies provided from the Sales & Marketing division.  My current understanding is that the points discounts enjoyed by VIPs in the discount window - along with the free room upgrades - are paid for by the Sales & Marketing division.  This division pays for the points discount program because it's their biggest upsell opportunity for developer sales.  If the discounting becomes too expensive, which may have been the case with resale points enjoying VIP discounts as a perk, then any change would likely be driven by this same division, since removing this perk will make it more difficult to upsell existing VIP owners as well as prospective non-VIP owners considering the VIP benefits.  This is only speculation on my part to be clear, but it makes sense at least on the surface.


----------



## Jan M.

Cyrus24 said:


> my biggest concern is over how Wyndham will roll this out from an IT perspective. Wyndham has a horrible track record in that regard. On that, I'm sure we all feel the same.



I'll have to eat my own words about telling people to stop saying Wyndham can't or won't do something. I always thought when it happened that they would set up separate accounts for developer and resale points. I didn't see how they could possibly do what they're doing in one account. That it would be too complex to even contemplate especially with a system that has had so many issues.

I'd be breathing a sigh of relief if some of our IT experts here on TUG were saying it's easy peasy to do and there's nothing to worry about.


----------



## VacayKat

So here’s a question - any ideas on whether Wyndham might be breaking things like the transaction history accidentally in their behind the scenes prep for this major change? In my account right now the pt # available in the upper right hand doesn’t match the one on the transaction history. And my previous years??? either they are missing or wildly wrong (i’m in the hole like 700k for last year). I think coupled with the assertion that this is an enhancement for owners the ongoing appearance of ineptitude adds to the fear that the repercussions of this change will be felt harshly.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> I'm not a moderator and have done my share of stirring over time, but, we do need to keep this conversation civil.  A few people are in for a real shocking adjustment as it relates to their individual Wyndham account while many others are looking forward to the change with something between excitement and real trepidation.  We need to respect how this is impacting the individual owners and their real like situations.  Whether you are VIP or not, owned resale or just developer or or owned a combination of resale/developer, we will all be impacted by the coming change.  I'd like us to stick to the change that is coming and look forward.  Sharing what we are seeing more than sharing what we are feeling about the feelings of others.  Try not to blame each other or attack.  We are all in this together.  Staying relaxed about the change is relatively easy for me.  As a VIPP with some resale, my biggest concern is over how Wyndham will roll this out from an IT perspective.  Wyndham has a horrible track record in that regard.  On that, I'm sure we all feel the same.  I may dump my Grand Desert resale just to eliminate clutter in my account, or, I may book a high demand week/resort at 10 months strictly for the purpose of renting or try to do the balancing act with 2 RT's and 2 HK's sitting over on the side, away from the VIP account.
> 
> What I'm interested in, mostly, is what we are seeing, things that can be backed up with data.  Little nuances, big bugs, changes in availability, rental prices, Extra Holidays, etc.  Those are things that impact myself and others.  Share that.  Let people vent about Wyndham, show some respect, don't brag and don't fuel the flames.  I like having threads open so that I can learn.  Let keep this one open.



Agreed.  I try my best not to stir the pot - and I try to practice using the Ignore function With respect to my own account, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to adapt, but here's how my ownership breaks down right now:


210k CWA developer points
508k PIC Plus developer points
688.5k CWS National Harbor resale points
Given I own a somewhat large resale contract, my current thinking is to use the resale contract for my larger family vacation bookings - since we typically book 1-2 week+ long family vacations in larger units.  For example, next year we've already got one and a half weeks booked at TOTG - which unfortunately will come out of our developer points bucket since I booked it using RARP.  I'd have to wait until 7/23/2022 - just a couple of days from now - to book it in the standard window - so I may end up canceling the RARP reservation and rebooking within the standard window - in the hopes that when they process the changes in mid-August - the system will deduct the points from our resale bucket.  Given we will only receive 2 GCs, 8 HK credits, and 9 RTs for our resale contract - it would be better using it for larger reservations.  I'd also use our resale points when booking for other family members.  For our developer points - I'd reserve these for the couples trips my wife and I typically take - long weekend getaways either with just the two of us - or with another couple - mostly booked within the 60 day discount window and requesting free room upgrades.  My strategy may change moving forward since these changes were just announced - but this is my current plan at least.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Jan M. said:


> I'll have to eat my own words about telling people to stop saying Wyndham can't or won't do something. I always thought when it happened that they would set up separate accounts for developer and resale points. I didn't see how they could possibly do what they're doing in one account. That it would be too complex to even contemplate especially with a system that has had so many issues.
> 
> I'd be breathing a sigh of relief if some of our IT experts here on TUG were saying it's easy peasy to do and there's nothing to worry about.



As an IT person this is actually easy if the database is right and you have organized it sufficiently (something call 3rd normal form).  We know that pointa in an account are from a contract.  We know we have information about that contract, ie.  CWA vs CWP vs PR, # points associated, etc.   Wyndham does all that now and does know resale vs developer on those same points.  So now it only has to add logic that looks at the rules of booking:  How many points, what is involved (VIP Discount, upgrade, ARP, SRP, ERP etc) and flag that transaction.  It just has to do some YTD calculations (total Annual account points by bucket, Used YTD by bucket, and it can use that will use that to determine if the booking you are requesting can fit.  

I am assuming it is actually storing these *transaction logs") and not dynamically calculating it, as it appears on the dashboard summary and is persistently displayed.  

If you have the right data and relationships, you can get to what you need.  It is when the data and keys are lacking that makes reporting very difficult to NOT possible.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> I'll have to eat my own words about telling people to stop saying Wyndham can't or won't do something. I always thought when it happened that they would set up separate accounts for developer and resale points. I didn't see how they could possibly do what they're doing in one account. That it would be too complex to even contemplate especially with a system that has had so many issues.
> 
> I'd be breathing a sigh of relief if some of our IT experts here on TUG were saying it's easy peasy to do and there's nothing to worry about.


Jan Wyndham used to have separate buckets before the system changed in 2016. I used to be able to book a reservation and request what deed the points came out of by calling in. As I used the points from each deed I would give the deed away or sell it for a small amount to cover what I had in it. It also allowed APR based on what deed had points available. As you know this all changed and it became one bucket of points. It looks like Wyndham is going back to operating the way it used to be but with the visibility of seeing it online. I am not a expert on IT but IMHO This shouldn't be a problem if Wyndham hires a competent IT team.


----------



## Cyrus24

VacayKat said:


> So here’s a question - any ideas on whether Wyndham might be breaking things like the transaction history accidentally in their behind the scenes prep for this major change? In my account right now the pt # available in the upper right hand doesn’t match the one on the transaction history. And my previous years??? either they are missing or wildly wrong (i’m in the hole like 700k for last year). I think coupled with the assertion that this is an enhancement for owners the ongoing appearance of ineptitude adds to the fear that the repercussions of this change will be felt harshly.


It’s sad that they will not fix this and is part of my concern regarding the change.  The concern over a butchered account far outweighs the concern over the change, itself.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> I'll have to eat my own words about telling people to stop saying Wyndham can't or won't do something. I always thought when it happened that they would set up separate accounts for developer and resale points. I didn't see how they could possibly do what they're doing in one account. That it would be too complex to even contemplate especially with a system that has had so many issues.
> 
> I'd be breathing a sigh of relief if some of our IT experts here on TUG were saying it's easy peasy to do and there's nothing to worry about.



I'll try to give you some sense of relief as requested.  The reality is this.  The points buckets have existed within the back office systems for a long time now.  These points buckets simply haven't been exposed to the front office website.  So the good news is that most the core functionalities for the points buckets - those are a known quantity and changes to the back office systems shouldn't be necessary - or somewhat minimal when compared to the front office changes.  The bad news is that the logic for processing resale reservations separately likely either didn't exist or must be changed as a result of the recently announced changes.  That said, the overall the changes to how the reservation components work isn't rocket science.  As long as the logic is programmed correctly - making net new reservations after mid-August when these changes are moved into production - I expect we'll see some bugs as always - but it should work for the majority of use cases from the outset.  That said, I'd expect Wyndham TUG owners to fair worse than most normal owners - since many Wyndham TUG owner accounts - especially those who fall into the commercial rental business bucket - are far from normal accounts and are outliers by definition.  Expect problems if you have millions of points, hundreds of transactions, dozens or hundreds of GC/HK/RT activities.  Just one man's opinion.

The bigger change that I'd be more concerned about is the points adjustments based upon account audits that have been announced.  Essentially they are doing an account audit for the current use year for all impacted VIP owners and performing changes to points buckets and GC/HK/RT counts retroactively best estimate.  I tend to agree with the consensus - take screenshots of your account information the day before the changes are rolled out. This is the area where I'd expect the most heartache.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> So here’s a question - any ideas on whether Wyndham might be breaking things like the transaction history accidentally in their behind the scenes prep for this major change? In my account right now the pt # available in the upper right hand doesn’t match the one on the transaction history. And my previous years??? either they are missing or wildly wrong (i’m in the hole like 700k for last year). I think coupled with the assertion that this is an enhancement for owners the ongoing appearance of ineptitude adds to the fear that the repercussions of this change will be felt harshly.



If you don't typically look at your Tx history - go back and look at it again after running through it initially.  I saw some odd behavior back a couple weeks ago when I went looking for some older transactions.  When initially loading the Tx history - it was completely jacked up.  I went back in like 30 minutes later and looked at my transaction history again - and it was fine at that point.  From what I could tell - the data from the back end doesn't populate in entirety right away - and the browser therefore may only show a subset of the data on initial load.  The problem resolved itself within 30 minutes IME.


----------



## troy12n

Regarding "account adjustments", I would like to hope they take into account that some people have use years which start October 1. So any "adjustments" they make in the use year, I would hope they would allow for those to carry over to the new UY which starts in October, and not give the owner roughly a month and a half to use these "adjustments"... I'm a October-September UY account, but all my points are retail, so this doesn't affect me either way.


----------



## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> Regarding "account adjustments", I would like to hope they take into account that some people have use years which start October 1. So any "adjustments" they make in the use year, I would hope they would allow for those to carry over to the new UY which starts in October, and not give the owner roughly a month and a half to use these "adjustments"... I'm a October-September UY account, but all my points are retail, so this doesn't affect me either way.



Per the announcement - the complimentary points will be deposited into your next use year, not the current use year, so in your case - any complimentary points would be deposited into your 2022 use year beginning 10/1/2021.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## paxsarah

Cyrus24 said:


> I may book a high demand week/resort at 10 months strictly for the purpose of renting


I had to chuckle at this. There have been some who insist that (mega)renters have been booking massive numbers of ARP and 10-month reservations as soon as they're available, and while I'm not sure that was based on anything other than a gut feeling, here goes Wyndham making the best course of action be to book 10-month high-demand reservations for the purpose of renting. It certainly does seem like a smart thing to do with all of those outstanding resale points!


----------



## Eric B

Ty1on said:


> Wyndham hasn't undercharged for the reservations.  They backfill the discounted points with developer owned points.



Backfilling the discounted points with developer-owned points means that the corporation that is the developer paid for maintenance fees on the points that weren't charged to the member that used them.  That is fundamentally money out of the corporate accounts that their rules said they shouldn't have spent, which is what I was getting at - if I were a shareholder I would be unhappy with observing this and learning that for perhaps decades the company has been asleep at the wheel and giving discounts when the shouldn't have, which could be interpreted as undercharging, though, too be fair to the folks in that position they weren't given the option to pay full price and might have made different decisions on the transactions otherwise.  There's the potential for this to be a problem for the company with its shareholders is what I'm getting at.


----------



## troy12n

Eric B said:


> Backfilling the discounted points with developer-owned points means that the corporation that is the developer paid for maintenance fees on the points that weren't charged to the member that used them.  That is fundamentally money out of the corporate accounts that their rules said they shouldn't have spent, which is what I was getting at - if I were a shareholder I would be unhappy with observing this and learning that for perhaps decades the company has been asleep at the wheel and giving discounts when the shouldn't have, which could be interpreted as undercharging, though, too be fair to the folks in that position they weren't given the option to pay full price and might have made different decisions on the transactions otherwise.  There's the potential for this to be a problem for the company with its shareholders is what I'm getting at.



Along those same lines, Wyndham corporate just shelled out a lot of money for the "Travel and Leisure" brand... That money had to come from somewhere, and maybe someone in corporate decided that they could no longer "look the other way" as all this money was going out the door either directly (as you referenced) or indirectly (pseudo wanna-be landlord renters) and they want all of it. Can't say I blame them... I don't know of any other industry that allows these sorts of shenanigans.

Edit also: I don't see how that money they spent on T&L could ever make sense, but i'm not a Harvard Blue Blood MBA... so I digress


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you don't typically look at your Tx history - go back and look at it again after running through it initially.  I saw some odd behavior back a couple weeks ago when I went looking for some older transactions.  When initially loading the Tx history - it was completely jacked up.  I went back in like 30 minutes later and looked at my transaction history again - and it was fine at that point.  From what I could tell - the data from the back end doesn't populate in entirety right away - and the browser therefore may only show a subset of the data on initial load.  The problem resolved itself within 30 minutes IME.


I wish- I look at transition history probably every other day. It's never resolved itself. I'm just trusting that the running total on the top is right at this point. I have 2 use years that literally have no transactions in them at this point and a third that sort of has some (hence the large amount in the hole) I micromanaged the previous years points so I know even without seeing transactions there isn't a problem. This year's transactions are a little more problematic as we've had a lot of reserved vacations be cancelled and rebooked because family seems to think that changing their mind is a fun activity. 
But what I was getting at is the timing of the transaction problems seem to line up with when it was likely that IT had to start implementing some of the intended changes on their end. My hope is that things will improve once they actually launch the changes, but not holding my breath.


----------



## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> Along those same lines, Wyndham corporate just shelled out a lot of money for the "Travel and Leisure" brand... That money had to come from somewhere, and maybe someone in corporate decided that they could no longer "look the other way" as all this money was going out the door either directly (as you referenced) or indirectly (pseudo wanna-be landlord renters) and they want all of it. Can't say I blame them... I don't know of any other industry that allows these sorts of shenanigans.
> 
> Edit also: I don't see how that money they spent on T&L could ever make sense, but i'm not a Harvard Blue Blood MBA... so I digress



The T&L brand also has a well known discount subscription travel service with a roughly 50k member roll.  Note those important words that apply to most modern day transactions:  a _subscription_ travel service - paid monthly as opposed to the aging model of paying large sums of money in advance, coupled with large monthly outlays for MFs.  I believe this purchase was strategic in nature in moving more toward travel subscription models as opposed to the legacy timeshare models that exist today.


----------



## VacayKat

troy12n said:


> Regarding "account adjustments", I would like to hope they take into account that some people have use years which start October 1. So any "adjustments" they make in the use year, I would hope they would allow for those to carry over to the new UY which starts in October, and not give the owner roughly a month and a half to use these "adjustments"... I'm a October-September UY account, but all my points are retail, so this doesn't affect me either way.


This worries me as well. Like I've mentioned before the proportion of points we have resale is small, but due to banking of points from 2 previous use years to this one, we have slightly less than double our points for this year. *If* Wyndham decides that all of those banked points are VIP points (which we have more than enough in each use year to make that a reasonable expectation) and *If* Wyndham decides that all the points we have used to book current reservations are with VIP from this year, we still have left over VIP points along with our bucket of resale points. Our use year is better than yours since it just moved over in July and if Wyndham makes the assumptions I made then it should be ok, but if they go back to the two previous use years and try to determine which points we banked it's going to be a PITA. 
On the other hand, if all the points being banked to the future go with the certain account they were banked from, I might finally have a case for using more than my yearly allowed points at outrigger properties since their argument had been that they had no idea what points I banked or where they came from, so no way you could use more than your yearly allotment. [yes I know this last one is wishful thinking and my head is fully submerged in the sands of denial}


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> The T&L brand also has a well known discount subscription travel service with a roughly 50k member roll.  Note those important words that apply to most modern day transactions:  a _subscription_ travel service - paid monthly as opposed to the aging model of paying large sums of money in advance, coupled with large monthly outlays for MFs.  I believe this purchase was strategic in nature in moving more toward travel subscription models as opposed to the legacy timeshare models that exist today.



This was the target.  Note that upon purchase, they immediately leased publishing operations back.


----------



## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> This worries me as well. Like I've mentioned before the proportion of points we have resale is small, but due to banking of points from 2 previous use years to this one, we have slightly less than double our points for this year. *If* Wyndham decides that all of those banked points are VIP points (which we have more than enough in each use year to make that a reasonable expectation) and *If* Wyndham decides that all the points we have used to book current reservations are with VIP from this year, we still have left over VIP points along with our bucket of resale points. Our use year is better than yours since it just moved over in July and if Wyndham makes the assumptions I made then it should be ok, but if they go back to the two previous use years and try to determine which points we banked it's going to be a PITA.
> On the other hand, if all the points being banked to the future go with the certain account they were banked from, I might finally have a case for using more than my yearly allowed points at outrigger properties since their argument had been that they had no idea what points I banked or where they came from, so no way you could use more than your yearly allotment. [yes I know this last one is wishful thinking and my head is fully submerged in the sands of denial}


No worries. Trust that Wyndham cares and will make it all balance out!


----------



## kaljor

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed.  I try my best not to stir the pot - and I try to practice using the Ignore function With respect to my own account, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to adapt, but here's how my ownership breaks down right now:



Well for someone who isn't sure, I'd say your plan hits the nail right on the head. Anyone else who has a mixed account should read Hitchiker's post above for a smart approach to take.

I've always been resale only so I've learned those same things.  If I were a VIP/Resale owner, my general rule would be to try to use my resale points earlier in the use year when possible, and by all means try not to use them for stays of less than a week or maybe six days. HK's are really the only concern.  The new system calls for 1 HK per stay, so 1 day or 14 days is the same cost. A studio and a 4 bedroom are now the same cost.  Obviously you should try to use resale points for those two categories.

I would try to use my resales earlier in the use year to preserve my VIP flexibility for later in the year.

If you're successful in this, you'll probably have enough HK's starting the year that you would never need to buy any more.  And at $159 per pop, that's the goal.

I wouldn't worry about RT's.  In fact I don't worry about them now.  At the end of most years I've usually had to buy 2 or 3 (or 5) , but at $19 (online) I don't care, if it allows me to get what I want.  I tend to make speculative bookings at 10 months out, and as the time approaches, I often find a reservation I want more, so I just cancel and rebook.


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## Ty1on

It just came to mind, mixed owners, that late "points pool" deposit of your resale points will also be disabled.


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## Cyrus24

Question, if you book a reservation with resale points, and then cancel, do you get the HK token/charge back?  I’m not concerned about the RT’s at $19, but the HK hit is enough to notice.


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## Ty1on

Cyrus24 said:


> Question, if you book a reservation with resale points, and then cancel, do you get the HK token/charge back?  I’m not concerned about the RT’s at $19, but the HK hit is enough to notice.



Yes.


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## kaljor

But you don't get the RT back.  Just so you know.


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## Ty1on

kaljor said:


> But you don't get the RT back.  Just so you know.


Correct.  The reservation transaction has happened, the cleaning has not.


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## VacayKat

Ty1on said:


> It just came to mind, mixed owners, that late "points pool" deposit of your resale points will also be disabled.


Gah. That was a huge perk of VIP - not having to think about when I had to deposit points by. Super glad you thought of that, I don't know I would have.
Recommend everyone put a reminder on their calendar for a few days before the deadline for both sets of points as soon as things go live. You don't want to miss those deadlines.


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## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> Gah. That was a huge perk of VIP - not having to think about when I had to deposit points by. Super glad you thought of that, I don't know I would have.
> Recommend everyone put a reminder on their calendar for a few days before the deadline for both sets of points as soon as things go live. You don't want to miss those deadlines.


Any and all VIP benefits along with PR units will not be able to be used with resale points. Deposit feature along with free HK'S, VIP discounts, VIP free upgrades, Presidential Reserve suites and the VIP check in line also will not be available when using resale points.


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## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> It just came to mind, mixed owners, that late "points pool" deposit of your resale points will also be disabled.



Yep, for resale points - it’ll be the same three month window that all resale owners have. This is a good reason to burn up resale points on the larger ARP or 10 month reservations for larger units. Less concern about having leftover resale points later in the year to use up or move to RCI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

troy12n said:


> Regarding "account adjustments", I would like to hope they take into account that some people have use years which start October 1. So any "adjustments" they make in the use year, I would hope they would allow for those to carry over to the new UY which starts in October, and not give the owner roughly a month and a half to use these "adjustments"... I'm a October-September UY account, but all my points are retail, so this doesn't affect me either way.


It will be interesting if they prorate the points on these account adjustments.  I hope shareholders don't take it on the chin again and they give away points for free  like they did with resale points being used with VIP benefits.


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## troy12n

Something I didn't think about until right now, and I wonder if it would matter, but I would like to hope that any VIP points moved to a future use year don't get stripped of their VIP benefits. That would be beyond nit picky...


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## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> Something I didn't think about until right now, and I wonder if it would matter, but I would like to hope that any VIP points moved to a future use year don't get stripped of their VIP benefits. That would be beyond nit picky...



If you are referring to points deposits, this is covered by the webpage, 7th bullet point in the graphic attached for reference.







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## Sandy VDH

On your My Ownership page on the current version of the website, do those who own Resale contracts see any indication that a contract is flagged as resale now?  There is more info here than there used to be, but just curious if it is showing flagged as resale anywhere yet.


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## VacayKat

Sandy VDH said:


> On your My Ownership page on the current version of the website, do those who own Resale contracts see any indication that a contract is flagged as resale now?  There is more info here than there used to be, but just curious if it is showing flagged as resale anywhere yet.


No. And there is pretty much no info about my contracts. Newest info on there are the financials and that isnt all that new.

As I mentioned earlier - the certified exit folks don’t even seem to see that as default. If you don’t know the details of each contract they either can’t or are unwilling to dig in to help you. Might be different if you hound them.


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## Rolltydr

Sandy VDH said:


> On your My Ownership page on the current version of the website, do those who own Resale contracts see any indication that a contract is flagged as resale now?  There is more info here than there used to be, but just curious if it is showing flagged as resale anywhere yet.


I’m not seeing anything different on mine so far. I have 2 resale contracts plus a 450k CWA contract purchased from Wyndham. All the information on all 3 contracts is the same as it has always been.


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## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> On your My Ownership page on the current version of the website, do those who own Resale contracts see any indication that a contract is flagged as resale now? There is more info here than there used to be, but just curious if it is showing flagged as resale anywhere yet.



I’m on my iPhone at present and I do not see any reference to resale or retail status on any of my contracts. 


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## cbyrne1174

I think the next step Wyndham might take would be to raise the resale transfer fee to Marriott levels. DC resale points still cost 1/3rd of the retail price. The points usually will pass ROFR at $2/pt and also require about $3/pt transfer fee. Last I checked, retail was about $14/pt, so resale is about 1/3rd the price.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

cbyrne1174 said:


> I think the next step Wyndham might take would be to raise the resale transfer fee to Marriott levels. DC resale points still cost 1/3rd of the retail price. The points usually will pass ROFR at $2/pt and also require about $3/pt transfer fee. Last I checked, retail was about $14/pt, so resale is about 1/3rd the price.


Hindsight is 20/20 & I bet your glad you avoided the VIP itch.


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## bryjake

Could "he next step Wyndham might take would be to raise the resale transfer fee to Marriott levels. DC resale points still cost 1/3rd of the retail price. The points usually will pass ROFR at $2/pt and also require about $3/pt transfer fee. Last I checked, retail was about $14/pt, so resale is about 1/3rd the price."

Yes they could (That would be generous of CW)

They also could not do anything or further differentiate resale from developer by minimizing other features like granting HK credits and and transaction charges from resale as well.  I believe those are not be guaranteed or should be taken for granted as well.  Other TS clubs have further stripped down versions of resale, why not CW.  (I do not foresee this near term, but longer term who knows)

Extra resale HK and transaction fee's would be like printing money for revenue

I do not fully believe the argument that CW fears having excess inventory from Ovation resale carries as much mass as other do. Having extra Ovations inventory allows for additional developer sales at desired properties without expanding and building or acquiring additional resorts.   Excessive inventory could be rolled into CWA sausage trust as well. 

Near term, I suspect CW loves keeping their sales happy and sales revenue flowing.  So process to "make dirty clean" could work

Longer term, who knows and clearly falls into the "it depends" bucket


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## paxsarah

Question:
If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will those combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?


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## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> Question:
> If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will those combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?


I would guess the most restrictive ARP would prevail. But if they are both the same ARP, as of right now Wyndham has not stated they are stripping that from the resale points. I think were they to do that they would have bigger problems on their hands as that has always been a contractual right not a perk.


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## raygo123

VacayKat said:


> Gah. That was a huge perk of VIP - not having to think about when I had to deposit points by. Super glad you thought of that, I don't know I would have.
> Recommend everyone put a reminder on their calendar for a few days before the deadline for both sets of points as soon as things go live. You don't want to miss those deadlines.


I would suggest that all VIPs with resale deposit those points before august.

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## Manzana

My big question would be if you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year if you have resale points available in same use year.


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## raygo123

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'll try to give you some sense of relief as requested. The reality is this. The points buckets have existed within the back office systems for a long time now. These points buckets simply haven't been exposed to the front office website. So the good news is that most the core functionalities for the points buckets - those are a known quantity and changes to the back office systems shouldn't be necessary - or somewhat minimal when compared to the front office changes. The bad news is that the logic for processing resale reservations separately likely either didn't exist or must be changed as a result of the recently announced changes. That said, the overall the changes to how the reservation components work isn't rocket science. As long as the logic is programmed correctly - making net new reservations after mid-August when these changes are moved into production - I expect we'll see some bugs as always - but it should work for the majority of use cases from the outset. That said, I'd expect Wyndham TUG owners to fair worse than most normal owners - since many Wyndham TUG owner accounts - especially those who fall into the commercial rental business bucket - are far from normal accounts and are outliers by definition. Expect problems if you have millions of points, hundreds of transactions, dozens or hundreds of GC/HK/RT activities. Just one man's opinion.
> 
> The bigger change that I'd be more concerned about is the points adjustments based upon account audits that have been announced. Essentially they are doing an account audit for the current use year for all impacted VIP owners and performing changes to points buckets and GC/HK/RT counts retroactively best estimate. I tend to agree with the consensus - take screenshots of your account information the day before the changes are rolled out. This is the area where I'd expect the most heartache.


Thank you I have been telling people on here since the new website that buckets still exist and you JUST DON'T SEE THEM!

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## VacayKat

raygo123 said:


> I would suggest that all VIPs with resale deposit those points before august.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


I get your point, but TBH, I think this will backfire and end up causing more VIP rentals to hit the market. I mean if you have the option between recouping some MF or sending the points to RCI, pretty sure everyone is taking the cash. I really doubt the best move for all folk’s resale points is to dump them to next use year - especially if your use year just started.


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## Eric B

Manzana said:


> My big question would be if you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year if you have resale points available in same use year.



The rule set they provided would allow that if you're in the proper reservation window (express reservation window in general, plus possibly to complete the amount needed for the final day for the standard reservation window).


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## VacayKat

Manzana said:


> My big question would be if you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year if you have resale points available in same use year.


And I think this brings us back to the question of how resale and developer points with different rules can be seen as one account. Will the website function properly for all the contingencies? Will CS actually understand all the rules and the complexities? Or will resale be considered second class citizens and everything need to be fought tooth and nail for at every interaction? 
I think Wyndham might need to hire some folks with psychology understanding - best way to strike fear in folks is to give them just enough info that they are in a position to not know much. And that fear and uncertainty leads to anger and lashing out. And with that - a reminder that the follow-up email had originally been scheduled to be sent today. Watch your inboxes.


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## Eric B

raygo123 said:


> I would suggest that all VIPs with resale deposit those points before august.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



In the announcement email I received, they indicated that "from the August system update through Dec. 31, 2021, you will have the option to convert your Non-VIP Eligible Points to maintenance fees or utilize the Points Deposit Feature to move your Non-VIP Eligible Points into a future Use Year."  The interesting thing about this is that for folks that are VIPG or below with a December/January use year that provides a longer window than exists for the VIP points.  Since that window will exist, I'm not entirely sure that it would be universally beneficial to deposit the points before August.

One thing that isn't entirely clear to me is whether they will require a separate PDF fee for VIP and non-VIP points.


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## paxsarah

VacayKat said:


> Will the website function properly for all the contingencies? Will CS actually understand all the rules and the complexities?


This really is the biggest question. There are a lot of ways that different types of points can or should be able to combine. Do we trust that they've thought through them all?

This is also why I'm watching this closely although the VIP changes don't directly effect me - because the website will. I'm prepared for the website to behave erratically for the foreseeable future.


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## Eric B

VacayKat said:


> Will the website function properly for all the contingencies?





paxsarah said:


> This really is the biggest question. There are a lot of ways that different types of points can or should be able to combine. Do we trust that they've thought through them all?
> 
> This is also why I'm watching this closely although the VIP changes don't directly effect me - because the website will. I'm prepared for the website to behave erratically for the foreseeable future.



The video they provided on the website doesn't instill confidence for me in that.  They didn't take the time to think about how they want the system to work well enough to communicate to the folks putting that together how to depict it realistically, which calls into question how well they've drafted the requirements for the IT folks to develop the system to implement it.  If you look at the listing of transactions, it seems like for some reason depositing points in an external exchange is a positive transaction while reservations are negative ones.  There's also one example of a week being booked at Bonnet Creek that cost 400,000 each from four different benefit categories, making a total of 1,600,000 (which wasn't displayed).  It had dates from November 10-17, 2020, which would put it in Value season.  Seems a bit unrealistic on both counts.  (Edited - frame is at 1:00 in video)


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> Question:
> If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will those combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?


There is no reason why they should not combine. CWA benefits are not VIP BENEFITS.

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## rapmarks

I spoke to someone I have known over twenty years who formerly Worked in sales for Wyndham about the rental issues.  He said that one thanksgiving weekend,  94% of the bookings at Glacier Canyon were rentals.


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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> There is no reason why they should not combine. CWA benefits are not VIP BENEFITS.


I think we can all agree that there is no reason why they should not combine. That's quite a different question than "will they combine?".


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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> There is no reason why they should not combine. CWA benefits are not VIP BENEFITS.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



I believe this is incorrect, if I understand you.  While CWA benefits are not VIP benefits, CWA has unique ARP benefits and non-CWA cannot combine with CWA for CWA ARP benefits any more so than Bonnet Creek points can combine with National Harbor points for National Harbor ARP.


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## paxsarah

Ty1on said:


> I believe this is incorrect, if I understand you.  While CWA benefits are not VIP benefits, CWA has unique ARP benefits and non-CWA cannot combine with CWA for CWA ARP benefits any more so than Bonnet Creek points can combine with National Harbor points for National Harbor ARP.


My original question, though, was can a VIP-eligible CWA contract and a non-VIP eligible CWA contract combine for VIP. According to the documentation, this would require booking with non-VIP points and borrowing VIP points - in that instance, will the system allow them to combine for ARP? Obviously they should, but will they?


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## Ty1on

paxsarah said:


> My original question, though, was can a VIP-eligible CWA contract and a non-VIP eligible CWA contract combine for VIP. According to the documentation, this would require booking with non-VIP points and borrowing VIP points - in that instance, will the system allow them to combine for ARP? Obviously they should, but will they?



That is a really good question now that I understand it, because I've always understood that CWA ARP inventory has been sequestered from deeded ARP inventory.


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## raygo123

Eric B said:


> The video they provided on the website doesn't instill confidence for me in that. They didn't take the time to think about how they want the system to work well enough to communicate to the folks putting that together how to depict it realistically, which calls into question how well they've drafted the requirements for the IT folks to develop the system to implement it. If you look at the listing of transactions, it seems like for some reason depositing points in an external exchange is a positive transaction while reservations are negative ones. There's also one example of a week being booked at Bonnet Creek that cost 400,000 each from four different benefit categories, making a total of 1,600,000 (which wasn't displayed). It had dates from November 10-17, 2020, which would put it in Value season. Seems a bit unrealistic on both counts. (Edited - frame is at 1:00 in video)


I am working off memory but I recall someone saying that either Worldmark or Shell had the technology to distinguish between retail and resale. 

As far as booking with a combination of both kinds of points,. That's easy. One only has to look at the old pay phones. A nickel was on tone, a quarter another and so on. In stead of tones, it is yes or no. If in the 10 month window all coins drop, or all points are good. so any point Will work. If ARP ONLY THE DEEDED POINTS OR CWA DEPENDING on use. If RARP only VIP and deposit forward points will drop. 

Your resale points are now slugs, we used the metal punch out from electrical boxes to make phone calls. Using resale points was no more than cutting a hole in a quarter and attaching a wire. 

Wyndham was not talking about the owner that uses the 50% discount window once or twice,. Wyndham went to the automatic upgrade to curb giving points away. This is merely an extension of reducing the number of points given to ALL VIP OWNERS. If Wyndham could have done everything they wanted to implement when the new website came out I believe this would have been one of them. Not only does it keep money in their pocket but a possible revenue stream, rentals, or additional VIP benefits.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> I believe this is incorrect, if I understand you. While CWA benefits are not VIP benefits, CWA has unique ARP benefits and non-CWA cannot combine with CWA for CWA ARP benefits any more so than Bonnet Creek points can combine with National Harbor points for National Harbor ARP.


Not in the standard window. There are no benefits in the 10 month window.

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## Ty1on

Worldmark distinguishes between Travelshare and standard, which is essentially between store bought and resale, with the understanding that you can buy developer points and opt out of Travelshare.


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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Not in the standard window. There are no benefits in the 10 month window.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Can you point out where in my post I used the term, "Standard window"?


----------



## Eric B

raygo123 said:


> I am working off memory but I recall someone saying that either Worldmark or Shell had the technology to distinguish between retail and resale.



WorldMark distinguishes between retail and resale credits.  There are significant differences in the implementation there that I haven't heard any thoughts of being implemented on the CWP side, though; in the WorldMark system, the credits you use are supposed to shuffle in the background so that the ones that expire first are used first without needing any action on your part.  If Wyndham implements it so that you can substitute point usage when it's appropriate, it wouldn't be all bad.


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## Eric B

raygo123 said:


> Not in the standard window. There are no benefits in the 10 month window.



That's not entirely true, though perhaps mostly true.  I'm not sure who had posted it, but seem to recall it was @HitchHiker71, but CWA does include some Margaritaville points in Rio Mar that allow booking during the standard reservation window (and ARP) by non-VIPs as well as those that are VIPs before their period would otherwise open up.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> That's not entirely true, though perhaps mostly true.  I'm not sure who had posted it, but seem to recall it was @HitchHiker71, but CWA does include some Margaritaville points in Rio Mar that allow booking during the standard reservation window (and ARP) by non-VIPs as well as those that are VIPs before their period would otherwise open up.



This is correct - we've had multiple reports of owners - both VIP and non-VIP - that were able to book Rio Mar in both ARP and the standard window - using CWA points.  We aren't sure if this is a function of some Rio May inventory held by CWA - or just an issue with the online reservation system allowing something it should not allow.  I've got a spreadsheet that lists out what CWA owns based upon what's documented in the CWA POS - it's a bit dated now and needs to be updated with a more current rev of the CWA POS - but I do _not _have any actual Rio Mar inventory reflected in my sheet at this time, which makes me think it's more of a glitch as opposed to CWA actually holding any Rio Mar inventory. There was also a period of time after the major hurricanes when the Caribbean resorts opened up reservations to a larger swath of Wyndham ownership than under otherwise normal circumstances - which may also explain why owners were able to "see" more inventory at Rio Mar and the USVI resorts during certain time periods.


----------



## raygo123

raygo123 said:


> I am working off memory but I recall someone saying that either Worldmark or Shell had the technology to distinguish between retail and resale.
> 
> As far as booking with a combination of both kinds of points,. That's easy. One only has to look at the old pay phones. A nickel was on tone, a quarter another and so on. In stead of tones, it is yes or no. If in the 10 month window all coins drop, or all points are good. so any point Will work. If ARP ONLY THE DEEDED POINTS OR CWA DEPENDING on use. If RARP only VIP and deposit forward points will drop.
> 
> Your resale points are now slugs, we used the metal punch out from electrical boxes to make phone calls. Using resale points was no more than cutting a hole in a quarter and attaching a wire.
> 
> Wyndham was not talking about the owner that uses the 50% discount window once or twice,. Wyndham went to the automatic upgrade to curb giving points away. This is merely an extension of reducing the number of points given to ALL VIP OWNERS. If Wyndham could have done everything they wanted to implement when the new website came out I believe this would have been one of them. Not only does it keep money in their pocket but a possible revenue stream, rentals, or additional VIP benefits.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk





Ty1on said:


> That is a really good question now that I understand it, because I've always understood that CWA ARP inventory has been sequestered from deeded ARP inventory.





paxsarah said:


> My original question, though, was can a VIP-eligible CWA contract and a non-VIP eligible CWA contract combine for VIP. According to the documentation, this would require booking with non-VIP points and borrowing VIP points - in that instance, will the system allow them to combine for ARP? Obviously they should, but will they?


Only in the ten month window. The only time periods Wyndham can touch is the 13 to 10 month window and the sixty day window. That goes back to the contract not the club. It seems that whole question is out of bounds. The two spheres your trying to combine do not intersect.a resale CWA or not will never combine for VIP BENEFITS. 

CWA is a trust. You own at those resorts. The benefits used will always be from that trust.thats an ownership not a VIP ISSUE. 

CWA and deeded has been linked for quite awhile. It is called RARP. Your resale points did work with it but as mentioned will no longer. My concern is with every level of VIP have a RARP, a deeded owner at eleven months no longer has exclusive rights to a unit he bought and paid. That is a breach of a trust, literally!.

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## am1

People who maximized ownerships should be celebrated instead of demonized.  When did the tide change on it?  A lot of haters on this thread who want to blame others for succeeding instead of accepting their own failures.  I am not against the timeshare trust imploding.


----------



## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Only in the ten month window. The only time periods Wyndham can touch is the 13 to 10 month window and the sixty day window. That goes back to the contract not the club. It seems that whole question is out of bounds. The two spheres your trying to combine do not intersect.a resale CWA or not will never combine for VIP BENEFITS.
> 
> CWA is a trust. You own at those resorts. The benefits used will always be from that trust.thats an ownership not a VIP ISSUE.
> 
> CWA and deeded has been linked for quite awhile. It is called RARP. Your resale points did work with it but as mentioned will no longer. My concern is with every level of VIP have a RARP, a deeded owner at eleven months no longer has exclusive rights to a unit he bought and paid. That is a breach of a trust, literally!.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


So are you saying that under the upcoming system, a VIP who owns a CWA retail contract and a CWA resale contract cannot and should not be able to combine them in the ARP window? Unlike now, when they can combine in the ARP window (which doesn't require the use of any VIP benefits)?


----------



## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> So are you saying that under the upcoming system, a VIP who owns a CWA retail contract and a CWA resale contract cannot and should not be able to combine them in the ARP window? Unlike now, when they can combine in the ARP window (which doesn't require the use of any VIP benefits)?


No. Just the opposite, they never cannot be. Never.

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## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> That is a really good question now that I understand it, because I've always understood that CWA ARP inventory has been sequestered from deeded ARP inventory.



Not so much sequestered as owned by the trust.  CWA is a trust that holds CWS deeds within the trust.  Therefore - any inventory that CWA holds in the trust for a specific resort - can be booked by a UDI CWA Owner within the ARP window - and _only _that CWA inventory can be booked in the ARP window.  All CWS deeded inventory not held by the CWA trust is _never _available to a CWA only owner when booking in the ARP window. The question that we have seen from prospective owners as well as existing owners is - should I own CWA and/or CWS if I want to book using ARP at a specific resort. Here's an excerpt from the sheet that I maintain based upon the CWA POS for a few of the Florida resorts:





From this excerpt - we can get a good sense of the percentage of deeds that CWA holds for a particular resort, provided the CWA POS provides the complete dataset - which is doesn't always do - in which case you'll see "NA" instead - such as for Orlando International Resort Club.  So if an owner were to ask the question - I want to book into WBC in the ARP window and book larger 3/4 bedroom units - what ownership should I consider?  My answer would be to find a CWS deeded ownership as opposed to CWA - given CWA only holds roughly a quarter of WBC deeds within the trust. Want the best of both worlds?  Become a hybrid owner and hold both a CWS WBC deeded ownership along with a CWA trust ownership - but recognize you can never cross the streams so to speak - meaning you cannot combine CWA and CWS points when booking in the ARP window - so if the owner wants to book larger units - they would need to hold enough points with both CWS and CWA contracts to book the units and time windows they would desire.  If booking in the ARP window isn't important - then it really doesn't matter what contract you own - since points are points within the standard booking window - unless something else changes with respect to resale contract ownerships resulting from the recent Wyndham announcements.


----------



## VacayKat

raygo123 said:


> I am working off memory but I recall someone saying that either Worldmark or Shell had the technology to distinguish between retail and resale.
> 
> As far as booking with a combination of both kinds of points,. That's easy. One only has to look at the old pay phones. A nickel was on tone, a quarter another and so on. In stead of tones, it is yes or no. If in the 10 month window all coins drop, or all points are good. so any point Will work. If ARP ONLY THE DEEDED POINTS OR CWA DEPENDING on use. If RARP only VIP and deposit forward points will drop.
> 
> Your resale points are now slugs, we used the metal punch out from electrical boxes to make phone calls. Using resale points was no more than cutting a hole in a quarter and attaching a wire.
> 
> Wyndham was not talking about the owner that uses the 50% discount window once or twice,. Wyndham went to the automatic upgrade to curb giving points away. This is merely an extension of reducing the number of points given to ALL VIP OWNERS. If Wyndham could have done everything they wanted to implement when the new website came out I believe this would have been one of them. Not only does it keep money in their pocket but a possible revenue stream, rentals, or additional VIP benefits.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


All of the companies can differentiate between resale and developer. Most [edited to add that most is my interpretation] just don't care and call it all one big lump sum for VIP since you paid a shitload of money to get there.
But the reason the question is coming up is not whether it is easy to determine from a logical perspective, because that is indeed an easy answer. The decision on HOW Wyndham will approach it is neither easy nor likely logical, which is why the question exists and why it won't really be answered until we get the new website implementations and find out what decisions Wyndham made.
I don't quite understand your last paragraph - can you explain how it connects to the topic of the first paragraph?


----------



## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> Unlike now, when they can combine in the ARP window (which doesn't require the use of any VIP benefits)?



My read of the information they've provided is that the developer and resale CWA points could be combined in the ARP window, but there is an involvement of VIP benefits in the form of reservation transactions and housekeeping credits.  If they are combined, the reservation would be treated as a non-VIP eligible transaction and would use a non-VIP reservation transaction and housekeeping credit.  It wouldn't be eligible for unlimited transactions or housekeeping or the extra ones VIPs are allowed, whichever they have.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> Not so much sequestered as owned by the trust.  CWA is a trust that holds CWS deeds within the trust.  Therefore - any inventory that CWA holds in the trust for a specific resort - can be booked by a UDI CWA Owner within the ARP window - and _only _that CWA inventory can be booked in the ARP window.  All CWS deeded inventory not held by the CWA trust is _never _available to a CWA only owner. The question that we have seen from prospective owners as well as existing owners is - should I own CWA and/or CWS if I want to book using ARP at a specific resort. Here's an excerpt from the sheet that I maintain based upon the CWA POS for a few of the Florida resorts:
> 
> View attachment 37817
> 
> From this excerpt - we can get a good sense of the percentage of deeds that CWA holds for a particular resort, provided the CWA POS provides the complete dataset - which is doesn't always do - in which case you'll see "NA" instead - such as for Orlando International Resort Club.  So if an owner were to ask the question - I want to book into WBC in the ARP window and book larger 3/4 bedroom units - what ownership should I consider?  My answer would be to find a CWS deeded ownership as opposed to CWA - given CWA only holds roughly a quarter of WBC deeds within the trust. Want the best of both worlds?  Become a hybrid owner and hold both a CWS WBC deeded ownership along with a CWA trust ownership - but recognize you can never cross the streams so to speak - meaning you cannot combine CWA and CWS points when booking in the ARP window - so if the owner wants to book larger units - they would need to hold enough points with both CWS and CWA contracts to book the units and time windows they would desire.  If booking in the ARP window isn't important - then it really doesn't matter what contract you own - since points are points within the standard booking window - unless something else changes with respect to resale contract ownerships resulting from the recent Wyndham announcements.



You've described what I meant by "sequestered."CWA contract can't see non-CWA inventory at ARP and vice versa.


----------



## HitchHiker71

raygo123 said:


> No. Just the opposite, they never cannot be. Never.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



* Deleted - nevermind - too many double negatives in your sentence to read it clearly.  We are saying the same thing.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> All CWS deeded inventory not held by the CWA trust is _never _available to a CWA only owner.



You mean in the ARP window, right?



HitchHiker71 said:


> but recognize you can never cross the streams so to speak



You should never cross the streams - that may lead to total positronic reversal!!!


----------



## Ty1on

Eric B said:


> You mean in the ARP window, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You should never cross the streams - that may lead to total positronic reversal!!!



I didn't see HitchHiker's original post your quoted, but I don't believe that to be the case if he truly means "never".  In the standard window, excepting Margaritaville, points are points are points.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> You mean in the ARP window, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You should never cross the streams - that may lead to total positronic reversal!!!



Correct - All CWS inventory not held by the CWS trust is _never _available to a CWA only owner when booking in the ARP window.


----------



## raygo123

HitchHiker71 said:


> Correct - All CWS inventory not held by the CWS trust is _never _available to a CWA only owner when booking in the ARP window.


At 11 months it is. Now that should not be. If CWA owner owns, in trust 70 plus resorts how booking a resort you do not own permit them to book at 11 months at resort in their trust that are deeded select resorts?

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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> At 11 months it is. Now that should not be. If CWA owner owns, in trust 70 plus resorts how booking a resort you do not own permit them to book at 11 months at resort in their trust that are deeded select resorts?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



I don't believe you understand correctly, or I don't understand your explanation correctly.

Say I own a CWA contract and I want to book a resort 11 months out. Say at Bonnet Creek.

The reservation dates I can see are limited to inventory that belongs in the CWA trust.  Period.  I won't see anything else.  I can't see a deeded resort "Select" inventory because it isn't available to me outside standard reservation period.

Now say Joe owns at Bonnet Creek.  He wants to make a reservation at 11 months out.  He can see any inventory at Bonnet Creek that is not deeded to the CWA trust.  He won't see any inventory that IS deeded to CWA Trust.

The reason for this is that if I own in CWA and CWA is a trust of deeds, I don't have ARP rights to anything but what is in my trust, just like Joe has no ARP rights to anything but his deeded inventory pool.  That's how ARP works, you get a jump in reservations on the pool in which you own.  Exceptions would be like Myrtle Beach where several reports pool together for ARP.  If it wasn't set up this way, CWA owners would bully a lot of owners at smaller high demand resorts that bought into those resorts specifically for the ARP to be able to get the times they wanted.  Imagine owning and paying high maintenance fees at South Shore to get a good shot at a ski week ARP, just to be overrun by a Black Friday mob of CWA owners on the morning of 13 months out....

At ten months, I and Joe will both see all available inventory at Bonnet Creek, because now it is beyond ARP protection so all inventory is openly available.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> I don't believe you understand correctly, or I don't understand your explanation correctly.
> 
> Say I own a CWA contract and I want to book a resort 11 months out. Say at Bonnet Creek.
> 
> The reservation dates I can see are limited to inventory that belongs in the CWA trust.  Period.  I won't see anything else.  I can't see a deeded resort "Select" inventory because it isn't available to me outside standard reservation period.
> 
> Now say Joe owns at Bonnet Creek.  He wants to make a reservation at 11 months out.  He can see any inventory at Bonnet Creek that is not deeded to the CWA trust.  He won't see any inventory that IS deeded to CWA Trust.
> 
> The reason for this is that if I own in CWA and CWA is a trust of deeds, I don't have ARP rights to anything but what is in my trust, just like Joe has no ARP rights to anything but his deeded inventory pool.  That's how ARP works, you get a jump in reservations on the pool in which you own.  Exceptions would be like Myrtle Beach where several reports pool together for ARP.  If it wasn't set up this way, CWA owners would bully a lot of owners at smaller high demand resorts that bought into those resorts specifically for the ARP to be able to get the times they wanted.  Imagine owning and paying high maintenance fees at South Shore to get a good shot at a ski week ARP, just to be overrun by a Black Friday mob of CWA owners on the morning of 13 months out....
> 
> At ten months, I and Joe will both see all available inventory at Bonnet Creek, because now it is beyond ARP protection so all inventory is openly available.



The only way a CWA owner could book any/all inventory at 11 months is as a VIP owner utilizing RARP, since RARP behaves as though what you see is as if you were looking at inventory via the standard reservation window.  Outside of using RARP, even if the online system allows you to "see" CWS inventory when searching for availability, if it's actually CWS owned inventory, and you attempt to actually book the CWS unit - you'd receive an error along the line of "your membership type doesn't allow you to book this inventory" or something similar.  I've seen two different types of errors over time when attempting to book in the ARP window myself - either a "you don't have enough ARP points for this reservation" or "your membership type doesn't allow you to book this unit".  I'm paraphrasing the errors, as I don't recall the exact verbiage - but I've seen both at various times, though admittedly I haven't seen the latter error recently - so Wyndham may have made enhancements to the availability searches to actually not display inventory that isn't reservable based upon your ownership.  Either way, you cannot book CWS inventory in the ARP window if you are a CWA only owner unless you are a VIP owner using RARP.


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## HitchHiker71

I just received the broader email that was sent to, best estimate, all owners, screenshots below for reference.  Not really any new info, other than the fact that Wyndham is giving away free RTs for all reservations during August.


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the broader email that was sent to, best estimate, all owners, screenshots below for reference.  Not really any new info, other than the fact that Wyndham is giving away free RTs for all reservations during August.


As a note, the link goes to a much pared-down version of the online benefits webpage - not the same page with all the VIP information.


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the broader email that was sent to, best estimate, all owners, screenshots below for reference.  Not really any new info, other than the fact that Wyndham is giving away free RTs for all reservations during August.
> 
> View attachment 37842
> View attachment 37843



Interesting contrast in the signature block - from the first email:

Sincerely, 

Your Club Wyndham Management Team

At least they're giving us complimentary points next use year, even if we don't warrant communication from Geoff.  No free points for those of you without an account with hybrid vigor!


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the broader email that was sent to, best estimate, all owners, screenshots below for reference.  Not really any new info, other than the fact that Wyndham is giving away free RTs for all reservations during August.
> 
> View attachment 37842
> View attachment 37843


Was going to comment that it appears non VIP resale don’t seem to be getting the same heads up as VIP did. Implies that there will be no difference to non-VIP owners who have both types. Vacations from multiple buckets may be an ongoing question.
the online benefits summary link is not as extensive as the VIP owners received.https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/resorts/resort-news/new-feature-coming-soon


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## VacayKat

Eric B said:


> Interesting contrast in the signature block - from the first email:
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Your Club Wyndham Management Team
> 
> At least they're giving us complimentary points next use year, even if we don't warrant communication from Geoff.  No free points for those of you without an account with hybrid vigor!


Hah- they don’t want a single person as a scapegoat.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> EH - oh, that's possible, considering that my guess is Wyndham will be more strongly pushing people to rent via that avenue moving forward.
> 
> What I originally assumed that was is that we're limited to renting extra points from Wyndham (at $12/k) up to our total number of points owned (not counting PIC or bonus points), so I thought that was maybe a tally of our remaining allowed rental allotment from Wyndham. Which if that's what it is probably doesn't need to be that prominent because I hope nobody's spending up to their entire points allotment at $12/k (and if they are, they don't need it justified and codified by being that prominent on the dashboard!).



BTW, I confirmed with Wyndham contacts late yesterday - the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphic and video is for your use case - it's a bucket that signifies the maximum amount of points your account can rent _from _Wyndham (at $12/1000 points currently).


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> BTW, I confirmed with Wyndham contacts late yesterday - the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphic and video is for your use case - it's a bucket that signifies the maximum amount of points your account can rent _from _Wyndham (at $12/1000 points currently).



What an amazing bargain!


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> BTW, I confirmed with Wyndham contacts late yesterday - the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphic and video is for your use case - it's a bucket that signifies the maximum amount of points your account can rent _from _Wyndham (at $12/1000 points currently).


How is that calculated? For whatever reason I didn’t know there was a max [not that I ever intended to give them $12/1000!!!!]


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## Ty1on

VacayKat said:


> How is that calculated? For whatever reason I didn’t know there was a max [not that I ever intended to give them $12/1000!!!!]



Same here, I always thought you could only rent enough to complete the last day of a reservation.  I mean if I was them, I'd rent you a trillion points at $12 if you wanted them.


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## HitchHiker71

Concatenating a list of follow up questions to send off to our Wyndham contacts, please post any additional questions in reply:

If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations?  For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
Statement:  “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.”  What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?  
For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
What else folks???
Here's the three items I already sent and have answers on:

Q:  What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?  
A:  Points Rental is referencing the number of points available to rent. Owners may rent up to the total amount of points owned when booking a reservation within the Express Booking window. 
Q:  What is meant by the "complimentary points" reference?  
A:  Complimentary Points – Additional one-time use points added into the next Use Year.
Q:  Will Wyndham allow VIP owners to utilize the Certified Exit program to feedback resale contracts that no longer can be used with VIP benefits?
A:  Wyndham Certified Exit- Yes, our team is committed to working with the owners on the best possible solutions based on their situation.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> Concatenating a list of follow up questions to send off to our Wyndham contacts, please post any additional questions in reply:
> 
> If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
> Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
> If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
> Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
> Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
> Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
> Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations?  For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
> Statement:  “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.”  What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
> How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?
> For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
> What else folks???
> Here's the three items I already sent and have answers on:
> 
> Q:  What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?
> A:  For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
> Q:  What is meant by the "complimentary points" reference?
> A:  Complimentary Points – Additional one-time use points added into the next Use Year.
> Q:  Will Wyndham allow VIP owners to utilize the Certified Exit program to feedback resale contracts that no longer can be used with VIP benefits?
> A:  Wyndham Certified Exit- Yes, our team is committed to working with the owners on the best possible solutions based on their situation.



Will resale contracts continue to receive home resort ARP?  The way they organized the points report leaves that open to question.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> Will resale contracts continue to receive home resort ARP? The way they organized the points report leaves that open to question.



Already in the list but thanks! 


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## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> Already in the list but thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yep, I just scanned right over that bullet point.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Concatenating a list of follow up questions to send off to our Wyndham contacts, please post any additional questions in reply:
> 
> If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
> Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
> If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
> Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
> Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
> Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
> Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations?  For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
> Statement:  “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.”  What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
> How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?
> For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
> What else folks???
> Here's the three items I already sent and have answers on:
> 
> Q:  What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?
> A:  For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
> Q:  What is meant by the "complimentary points" reference?
> A:  Complimentary Points – Additional one-time use points added into the next Use Year.
> Q:  Will Wyndham allow VIP owners to utilize the Certified Exit program to feedback resale contracts that no longer can be used with VIP benefits?
> A:  Wyndham Certified Exit- Yes, our team is committed to working with the owners on the best possible solutions based on their situation.


Many of these questions apply to non VIP as well - for e.g. The first two could be added to:
1. Say you have a resale and a developer bucket of CWA if you use from both buckets how does that work for ARP
2. Will each bucket be separate transactions for depositing points?
3. Will it be an account approach for borrowing from future years or will it be a bucket approach?

new question:
1. Will this be the last resale change for the foreseeable future? Do you intend to inform non-VIP folks of the change as well, or have you?
2. If owners do not agree with how you allocate their current year vacation reservations to the buckets, will you work with them or are your decisions final? Will you offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?
3. Will there be any additional HK and RT allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the use year?
4. When do you recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?
5. When will the owner book be updated to reflect all the changes?
6. Will sales be informed of the changes? What are the repercussions to sales people who fail to update their tactics to reflect current rules?

i’m sure I’ll have more, lol

edited to add: 
one more question: What, if any effect, does this have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations than yearly contract has. So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022. Also do buckets remain segregated when banking? What effect, if any, does making buckets have on folks with no resale points.


----------



## chapjim

Ty1on said:


> What an amazing bargain!



Information I need to have at my fingertips!  You never know when the urge will strike to buy points at $12/1,000.


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## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Information I need to have at my fingertips!  You never know when the urge will strike to buy points at $12/1,000.


If only Wyndham would pay to take back deeds at the same $12/1000.


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> I don't believe you understand correctly, or I don't understand your explanation correctly.
> 
> Say I own a CWA contract and I want to book a resort 11 months out. Say at Bonnet Creek.
> 
> The reservation dates I can see are limited to inventory that belongs in the CWA trust. Period. I won't see anything else. I can't see a deeded resort "Select" inventory because it isn't available to me outside standard reservation period.
> 
> Now say Joe owns at Bonnet Creek. He wants to make a reservation at 11 months out. He can see any inventory at Bonnet Creek that is not deeded to the CWA trust. He won't see any inventory that IS deeded to CWA Trust.
> 
> The reason for this is that if I own in CWA and CWA is a trust of deeds, I don't have ARP rights to anything but what is in my trust, just like Joe has no ARP rights to anything but his deeded inventory pool. That's how ARP works, you get a jump in reservations on the pool in which you own. Exceptions would be like Myrtle Beach where several reports pool together for ARP. If it wasn't set up this way, CWA owners would bully a lot of owners at smaller high demand resorts that bought into those resorts specifically for the ARP to be able to get the times they wanted. Imagine owning and paying high maintenance fees at South Shore to get a good shot at a ski week ARP, just to be overrun by a Black Friday mob of CWA owners on the morning of 13 months out....
> 
> At ten months, I and Joe will both see all available inventory at Bonnet Creek, because now it is beyond ARP protection so all inventory is openly available.


A VIP who is all CWA will see ALL CWP inventory available that participate in the RARP. It crosses over the trust. In fact , to quote the new term, all qualifying VIP points can be used. That includes deposit forward retail points. It used to include resale. It turns the whole ARP period into a free for all!

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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> A VIP who is all CWA will see ALL CWP inventory available that participate in the RARP. It crosses over the trust. In fact , to quote the new term, all qualifying VIP points can be used. That includes deposit forward retail points. It used to include resale. It turns the whole ARP period into a free for all!
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Hold on, you're talking VIP RARP certificates.  

A: Those are VIP benefits.  You get 5 per year if you are a founder, down to one for a Bronze.  And that's at 11 months, after ARP has had a two month shot at it.
B:  They are completely unrelated to the fact that you own in CWA.  You could own at Bentley Brook and still use the RARP certificate in the same resorts.
C:  How does excluding resale turn the whole ARP period into a free-for-all?


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Q: What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?
> A: For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?



Units of the answer don't match the units of the question.  Copy/paste might be the root cause?  Think you posted elsewhere that the rental bucket in the video represented the maximum number of rental points you could use in the calendar year, which is covered in the member's directory on page 249 as being the annual ownership allocation excluding points associated with Bonus and PIC contracts, though that is limited to the Express Reservation Window.


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> Hold on, you're talking VIP RARP certificates.
> 
> A: Those are VIP benefits. You get 5 per year if you are a founder, down to one for a Bronze. And that's at 11 months, after ARP has had a two month shot at it.
> B: They are completely unrelated to the fact that you own in CWA. You could own at Bentley Brook and still use the RARP certificate in the same resorts.
> C: How does excluding resale turn the whole ARP period into a free-for-all?


It doesn't. But what does occur is every VIP can cross over to all CWP resorts that participate. Approximately 50 deeded and CWA resorts. 

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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> It doesn't. But what does occur is every VIP can cross over to all CWP resorts that participate. Approximately 50 deeded and CWA resorts.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



At 11 months, 2 months into those resorts' ARP period.  Still trying to understand the crisis here.

I would say that if I could find a single case example of the developer coopting the privileges of its non-VIP members to favor its VIP members, this would be the one.


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> At 11 months, 2 months into those resorts' ARP period. Still trying to understand the crisis here.


Do you own deeds?

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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Do you own deeds?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Of course I do.


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## Eric B

Is it possible that VIP RARP is satisfied using inventory owned by the developer?  Thought that was what was used for all the VIP benefits.


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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> At 11 months, 2 months into those resorts' ARP period. Still trying to understand the crisis here.


Say I own a deed at a very popular resort that participates in RARP. I book every year at 10 months and a few days. This time a new VIP with 300,000 points used a RARP BOOKED YOUR WEEK! Two days before.

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## Ty1on

Eric B said:


> Is it possible that VIP RARP is satisfied using inventory owned by the developer?  Thought that was what was used for all the VIP benefits.



I was wondering the same thing.  I don't think there is any way we could ever find that one out, because it would entail ensuring that there is enough developer inventory to cover all RARP reservations and that inventory not otherwise utilized until after the 10 month mark.


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## Ty1on

raygo123 said:


> Say I own a deed at a very popular resort that participates in RARP. I book every year at 10 months and a few days. This time a new VIP with 300,000 points used a RARP BOOKED YOUR WEEK! Two days before.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



If you book every year at 10 months and a few days, you are [not using your advantage as an owner].  You know you stay there every year and should book at 13 months.


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## VacayKat

raygo123 said:


> Say I own a deed at a very popular resort that participates in RARP. I book every year at 10 months and a few days. This time a new VIP with 300,000 points used a RARP BOOKED YOUR WEEK! Two days before.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


So I guess the question is... if you want a certain week that you believe to be your week, are you even talking about a points based system at this point? The simple fact is, if one owns  a points based timeshare, they don't have the right to any week or even any reservation. 

The main point I'd like to make though, is not every resort allows RARP, and frankly, I imagine that for most years, most VIP have little interest in RARP to your certain resort at your certain week. 
If you're finding you keep getting beaten out for a certain week at the resort you have ARP at, as in you are unable to get any reservation, then I think there is a problem with the actual inventory available at the resort. Can't imagine at your resort having a VIP eligible to book at 13 months out, the same ARP you'd have, is actually as problematic as you are suggesting. But if that's a problem you've been having with booking a place, I think a lot of us would be more than willing to help you figure out how to get a reservation at the resort. I'm sure no VIP would want someone who has an ARP to miss out on their booking opportunities. In fact, I'd argue most of us think we're in it together and want you to have a great vacation too.


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## raygo123

VacayKat said:


> So I guess the question is... if you want a certain week that you believe to be your week, are you even talking about a points based system at this point? The simple fact is, if one owns a points based timeshare, they don't have the right to any week or even any reservation.
> 
> The main point I'd like to make though, is not every resort allows RARP, and frankly, I imagine that for most years, most VIP have little interest in RARP to your certain resort at your certain week.
> If you're finding you keep getting beaten out for a certain week at the resort you have ARP at, as in you are unable to get any reservation, then I think there is a problem with the actual inventory available at the resort. Can't imagine at your resort having a VIP eligible to book at 13 months out, the same ARP you'd have, is actually as problematic as you are suggesting. But if that's a problem you've been having with booking a place, I think a lot of us would be more than willing to help you figure out how to get a reservation at the resort. I'm sure no VIP would want someone who has an ARP to miss out on their booking opportunities. In fact, I'd argue most of us think we're in it together and want you to have a great vacation too.


Have you read your deed?there are things Wyndham can't touch. Even when converted to points.

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> I book every year at 10 months and a few days.


You do realize how silly this sounds, right? Who does this?


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## VacayKat

raygo123 said:


> Have you read your deed?there are things Wyndham can't touch. Even when converted to points.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Yes, when converted to points, you give up your rights to use a certain week. That's the trade off.
If rather what you're saying is that you have not converted it to points then you are correct, there is no way anyone else could book your unit, during your week because it's not in the system. You've already got the reservation, you don't have to book it.


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## raygo123

VacayKat said:


> Yes, when converted to points, you give up your rights to use a certain week. That's the trade off.
> If rather what you're saying is that you have not converted it to points then you are correct, there is no way anyone else could book your unit, during your week because it's not in the system. You've already got the reservation, you don't have to book it.


That's odd because my contract , with Wyndham when I bought into points says I can declare I am going to use it

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## VacayKat

raygo123 said:


> That's odd because my contract , with Wyndham when I bought into points says I can declare I am going to use it
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


What's the date you have to declare? My guess is that it is before it is released for inventory. But that should also be highlighted on the contract. If in fact that is not the case, then you have a clear case to sue Wyndham for breach of contract. And if you have a case then you should because it's the only way they would learn.


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## kaljor

I'm pretty sure that a converted fixed week only has ARP rights for that underlying week and unit.  I questioned Owner Care about this when I got my first contract and that's what I was told.  I've never stayed there, but I seem to remember testing it for my own knowledge and that's how it worked.


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## paxsarah

kaljor said:


> I'm pretty sure that a converted fixed week only has ARP rights for that underlying week and unit.  I questioned Owner Care about this when I got my first contract and that's what I was told.  I've never stayed there, but I seem to remember testing it for my own knowledge and that's how it worked.


I think what raygo is saying is that any VIP can book that underlying fixed week at 11 months with RARP - that at that point it’s no longer held just for you but is basically open season at 11 months (and not 10 months as is to be expected). I have no idea if that is correct or not, but I would guess if push comes to shove and the owner of that week tries to book it in the 11-10 month window, they could get Wyndham to intervene if it’s been booked by a VIP.
But honestly, if you use it every year, who waits until 10 months and a few days?


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## scootr5

kaljor said:


> I'm pretty sure that a converted fixed week only has ARP rights for that underlying week and unit.  I questioned Owner Care about this when I got my first contract and that's what I was told.  I've never stayed there, but I seem to remember testing it for my own knowledge and that's how it worked.



That is correct.


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> I think what raygo is saying is that any VIP can book that underlying fixed week at 11 months with RARP - that at that point it’s no longer held just for you but is basically open season at 11 months (and not 10 months as is to be expected). I have no idea if that is correct or not, but I would guess if push comes to shove and the owner of that week tries to book it in the 11-10 month window, they could get Wyndham to intervene if it’s been booked by a VIP.
> But honestly, if you use it every year, who waits until 10 months and a few days?


Yes . Also an all CWA owner will see all available participating units at 11 months. It has been verified.

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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> Units of the answer don't match the units of the question. Copy/paste might be the root cause? Think you posted elsewhere that the rental bucket in the video represented the maximum number of rental points you could use in the calendar year, which is covered in the member's directory on page 249 as being the annual ownership allocation excluding points associated with Bonus and PIC contracts, though that is limited to the Express Reservation Window.



Fixed in the original post.


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## raygo123

I just received the email for Wyndham owners without resale. No mention of resale points.

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## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> What's the date you have to declare? My guess is that it is before it is released for inventory. But that should also be highlighted on the contract. If in fact that is not the case, then you have a clear case to sue Wyndham for breach of contract. And if you have a case then you should because it's the only way they would learn.


Suing would be a waste of money IMHO. The only winners in a class action suit are the lawyers.


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## dgalati

raygo123 said:


> I just received the email for Wyndham owners without resale. No mention of resale points.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Whats that one about Ray?


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## Manzana

One more thing that concerns me is anything system driven as they say might retroactively assign housekeeping and transaction credits to reservations.   Leaving those with points left as resale without any to use.   This happened to me in a sense with GCs when I dropped from Platinum to Gold


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## raygo123

dgalati said:


> Whats that one about Ray?


Same email resale oowners recieved ecept it made no mention of resale

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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> I think what raygo is saying is that any VIP can book that underlying fixed week at 11 months with RARP - that at that point it’s no longer held just for you but is basically open season at 11 months (and not 10 months as is to be expected). I have no idea if that is correct or not, but I would guess if push comes to shove and the owner of that week tries to book it in the 11-10 month window, they could get Wyndham to intervene if it’s been booked by a VIP.
> But honestly, if you use it every year, who waits until 10 months and a few days?


Yes your right. 

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## Jimag

Eric B said:


> I'm with you on that one.


That sounds like a good idea to me also, but I would not hold my breath for an attractive offer.


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## raygo123

raygo123 said:


> Yes your right.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Its not that no one would book then. But that crosses the line. I owned a deed. It was a week converted to points. It was mine untill the tenth month.  Right now there are fifty resorts in the RARP list that are also CWA.  Right now CWA CAN BOOK those fifty from "ALL" CWP inventory. Using a RARP at eleven months. Will wyndham enforce the. If you own there you cannot use it there and since a CWA owns at all of them   you should not be able to use a RARP  only at resorts that are only deeded.

Wyndham just gave a ton of them away.  

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## Jimag

55plus said:


> Same here. I have Christmas thru New Year and Bike Week.


Just curious, what VIP benefits are you concerned with losing on Christmas and next year reservations -- RARP maybe?


Sandy VDH said:


> I don't think so, if they set up the system the way as a Data Modeler (yes my day job) I think they should have to.  The user generates reservations and each reservations will have certain types of properties (ARP, Discounts, Upgrades) that can be flagged, and then they can check the totals points of those reservations during the booking process to check that you do not exceed the total of points that apply to VIP.  It has some backend calculations to do, but only a bit more buckets than they had before.  They already know which buck if the current year and which ones are saves points from previous years.  So it they built the data base right, it would not be difficult.  Now of course this is Wyndham's IT department, but they have the bucket of points system working fine, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Funny thing however, I have yet to get the email.


Did you check your "junk" folder?


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## 55plus

Jimag said:


> Just curious, what VIP benefits are you concerned with losing on Christmas and next year reservations -- RARP maybe?


I'm not concerned about losing anything. Maybe I don't understand the question?


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## Jimag

Ty1on said:


> What sent me on that tangent was "Apparently the people who this affects is VERY small."  My point was that even though the rule may be targeted at a very small pool of people, I think it will necessarily affect everyone who owns a combination of store bought and resale points.


you should add: "if they they have VIP status."


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## Eric B

Jimag said:


> you should add: "if they they have VIP status."



If and only if Wyndham is competent enough to have addressed all of the potential unintended consequences.  Currently the system allows you to PDF all of the points you have that are eligible to PDF in a single transaction.  The rule set they have hinted at seems to indicate that for VIP members, you can PDF VIP-eligible points to retain that status and you can PDF non-VIP-eligible points with them retaining that status but they haven't discussed whether that is possible to do in a single transaction.  They have hinted at the inability to use VIP-related transactions for non-VIP-eligible points when it comes to making reservations, which makes me suspect that you will need a separate transaction for the different point-buckets when it also comes to doing a PDF for all the eligible points in a use year.  I suppose that it would be possible to set up the system to distinguish between hybrid VIP accounts and other hybrid accounts, but it would take some forethought and desire to do so and the net result would be that Wyndham would only be charging a non-VIP hybrid account owner for one PDF transaction instead of two, which would result from needing to have them broken up by buckets as VIP-eligible points and non-VIP-eligible points despite the fact that the owner is not a VIP.  Net cost for such an owner could be an extra $39 for the second PDF transaction and an extra $19 for the additional reservation transaction if the owner is not careful about managing their points.

On the other hand, Wyndham might be feeling benevolent to non-VIP hybrid account holders and spend the extra time and money on setting up the software requirements as well as the development costs to get it right and avoid having any effect on those folks.  I'm not holding my breath on that.


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## Jimag

VacayKat said:


> And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small.


Don't believe everything you hear.  And, if you crunch the numbers, I think you would find that resale is still the better deal even with these changes.


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## cbyrne1174

Jimag said:


> Don't believe everything you hear.



I've personally never come across another resale only owner during hot tub talks. I really do think it's only like 5% of owners.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> If and only if Wyndham is competent enough to have addressed all of the potential unintended consequences. Currently the system allows you to PDF all of the points you have that are eligible to PDF in a single transaction. The rule set they have hinted at seems to indicate that for VIP members, you can PDF VIP-eligible points to retain that status and you can PDF non-VIP-eligible points with them retaining that status but they haven't discussed whether that is possible to do in a single transaction. They have hinted at the inability to use VIP-related transactions for non-VIP-eligible points when it comes to making reservations, which makes me suspect that you will need a separate transaction for the different point-buckets when it also comes to doing a PDF for all the eligible points in a use year. I suppose that it would be possible to set up the system to distinguish between hybrid VIP accounts and other hybrid accounts, but it would take some forethought and desire to do so and the net result would be that Wyndham would only be charging a non-VIP hybrid account owner for one PDF transaction instead of two, which would result from needing to have them broken up by buckets as VIP-eligible points and non-VIP-eligible points despite the fact that the owner is not a VIP. Net cost for such an owner could be an extra $39 for the second PDF transaction and an extra $19 for the additional reservation transaction if the owner is not careful about managing their points.
> 
> On the other hand, Wyndham might be feeling benevolent to non-VIP hybrid account holders and spend the extra time and money on setting up the software requirements as well as the development costs to get it right and avoid having any effect on those folks. I'm not holding my breath on that.



If you watch the video provided, the points buckets are for Developer and Resale - there’s no reference to VIP or non-VIP anywhere in the buckets. Based upon what I’ve seen, I think any owner who has a hybrid account - whether VIP or non-VIP - the points buckets will exist - and any associated fee structure changes will apply equally to all hybrid accounts. I don’t believe we will see differences in how VIP vs non-VIP accounts will be managed. 


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## Jimag

troy12n said:


> Having never owned any resale points, do those contracts still get a certain number of reservations and HK credits for free, based on how many points are in the contract? If so, and you would have the ability to scrutinize which contract you pull from, this may be less of an issue for your average joe, while at the same time sticking it to the renters...


It's not free.  Resale contracts entail the same maintenance fees that retail contracts do.  Much of the mark-up on retail contracts goes to sales commissions and general support of the sales operation -- you know the bonus you recieve to attend a presentation and the expense of maintaining the sales office.


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## CO skier

Eric B said:


> If and only if Wyndham is competent enough to have addressed all of the potential unintended consequences.  Currently the system allows you to PDF all of the points you have that are eligible to PDF in a single transaction.  The rule set they have hinted at seems to indicate that for VIP members, you can PDF VIP-eligible points to retain that status and you can PDF non-VIP-eligible points with them retaining that status but they haven't discussed whether that is possible to do in a single transaction.  They have hinted at the inability to use VIP-related transactions for non-VIP-eligible points when it comes to making reservations, which makes me suspect that you will need a separate transaction for the different point-buckets when it also comes to doing a PDF for all the eligible points in a use year.


We will not know the answer until someone tries it after mid-August.  What is the possible downside?  An extra $39 charge, just as if the hybrid account were being treated as two separate accounts -- one Developer points only and one resale points.

Would not someone with a hybrid account want to deposit as many non-VIP points as possible within the first 3 months of the use year and save as many VIP points as possible to PDF anytime before the end of the Use Year as plans evolve over the next 9 months?  Which would have been a separate deposit anyway?

There are bigger things to worry about.


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you watch the video provided, the points buckets are for Developer and Resale - there’s no reference to VIP or non-VIP anywhere in the buckets. Based upon what I’ve seen, I think any owner who has a hybrid account - whether VIP or non-VIP - the points buckets will exist - and any associated fee structure changes will apply equally to all hybrid accounts. I don’t believe we will see differences in how VIP vs non-VIP accounts will be managed.


As I read Eric B's post, he was referring to "VIP-eligible points" (Developer) and "non-VIP-eligible-points" (resale), not VIP vs. non-VIP accounts; i.e., he just used different terms for what you used and meant.


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## CO skier

......


----------



## learnalot

hjsweet2002 said:


> I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits.  And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past.  Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.


In this scenario it would depend on how the sale was written and whether they incorporated your resale points into the purchase or just made verbal statements about your VIP benefits applying to them.  Others have reported having resale fixed weeks incorporated into a new points purchase (not talking PIC weeks).   I'm not aware of anyone making that happen with resale points vs fixed weeks but it would depend on what your sales contract says.


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## learnalot

regatta333 said:


> In signing into my account, I notice there is now a "Switch Memberships" selection under the drop-down menu for My Account.  When I click on it, it shows my VIP Gold account and each of two resale accounts.  Point balances are zero since I have no points remaining this year.  I guess you will have to switch among the accounts to book, although I'm not sure why they didn't just group the non-VIP accounts together.  This really adds a level of complexity that is not appealing.
> Also, we are already not getting VIP upgrades, as discussed in another thread.  You'd think they'd maybe focus on fixing existing problems before adding potential new ones that will result in more dissatisfaction with the broken booking system.


I'm just catching up on this thread so someone else may have pointed this out already, but having the contracts listed separately should increase your ability to designate from which account you are making a particular reservation.  This can matter because you might want to preserve the points from a particular contract for an ARP reservation at that resort.


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## learnalot

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email.  No way will I get any points.  I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.


When I read "complimentary points" I took it as the bonus points that they would often give with developer sales that would temporarily boost people to a particular VIP level.  I don't know if that's what they were talking about, but that's how I took it.


----------



## tschwa2

learnalot said:


> In this scenario your benefits might remain the same - because when you made the new purchase, they probably brought your resale points in as part of the sale.  It's a strategic calculation on their part that allows them to make a new sale.  It's the opposite scenario that will be a problem - people who had VIP status through developer purchases and then acquired additional resale points which, up until this change, behaved like their developer purchased points.  (I believe that Presidential Reserve points have always been tracked separately - only PR points were eligible for PR benefits).   We probably won't know for sure until the new system actually rolls out.  Hopefully it will work out for you.


Wyndham hasn't "brought resale" in as part of the sale for 20+ years.  The hjsweet probably had several hundred thousand resale points but was talked into buying retail up to silver to get the free HK on all of the points or gold to get the free HK, transactions and either for the upgrades and discounted reservations.  So yes it will effect him, it's pretty much the same as the people who already had the status. But if you already had VIP, sales wouldn't be suggesting you buy resale because that doesn't benefit them at all.


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## paxsarah

cbyrne1174 said:


> I've personally never come across another resale only owner during hot tub talks. I really do think it's only like 5% of owners.


I think we’re disproportionately represented here, but pretty rare in the wild.


----------



## learnalot

paxsarah said:


> So the second question which may or may not be related is this. Near the bottom under "Important Information" (which why does that have to be expanded? Just make all of the information immediately viewable!) is this bullet point:
> 
> Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.
> What in the world does this mean? The only extended booking available to VIPs would be RARP and Margaritaville, which are already mentioned earlier on the page. I'm hoping that this is just some kind of weird confusion written by a marketing person, and not some limitation in booking window on resale points. Should this bullet point mean something obvious/benign that I'm missing?
> 
> Another question I'm just curious about although it doesn't pertain to me - for owners who own some developer and some resale points but are not VIP, are they going to be forced to distinguish between their VIP-eligible and resale contracts when booking? I'm thinking of the short video with the drop-down on the vacation search screen. As of now, all of the differences between non-VIP retail accounts and all-resale accounts are things that have to be called in (Club Pass, Plus Partners, etc.), so their online booking process could be essentially the same as mine (as an all-resale owner). It would be a pain for them to have to make choices between different types of points every time they book.



Hi Sarah,
I agree that the reference to the standard and extended windows was confusing because you're correct that it's essentially a non-issue in terms of reservations.  I think it must have had more to do with the extended timeline for miscellaneous transactions like rolling points to a future year, depositing them with RCI, converting to maintenance fees, etc.

I also get that it might seem a pain to have to choose between different types of points every time you book, however, it makes sense in terms of being able to access (or preserve) ARP for different sets of points.  People who have Daytona points that they want to use for bike week reservations wouldn't want to have the points for a reservation at a location or time that's easier to get come out of their Daytona bucket, for example.


----------



## paxsarah

learnalot said:


> I also get that it might seem a pain to have to choose between different types of points every time you book, however, it makes sense in terms of being able to access (or preserve) ARP for different sets of points.


It’s already preserved and we don’t have to choose. Basically, if we haven’t used ARP at a particular location, then it’s preserved. We don’t have to choose location if ARP isn’t being used. I’ll be disappointed if this changes.


----------



## ilya

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you watch the video provided, the points buckets are for Developer and Resale - there’s no reference to VIP or non-VIP anywhere in the buckets. Based upon what I’ve seen, I think any owner who has a hybrid account - whether VIP or non-VIP - the points buckets will exist - and any associated fee structure changes will apply equally to all hybrid accounts. I don’t believe we will see differences in how VIP vs non-VIP accounts will be managed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




What will happen to the PIC contracts? I've read on here many people became Platinum  VIP with very little developer purchased points... The theory was to buy resale fixed weeks  then turn them into Wyndham with a small purchase  to gain VIP level... Since these are resale contracts , maybe not Wyndham properties,  will these contracts also be classified as non VIP and therefore reduce the status of that owner? Seems like they would have to eliminate that loophole as well.. Another thing that was allowed and promoted ... I would think that all resale contracts should be treated the same or else it would seem like unfair treatment...


----------



## paxsarah

ilya said:


> Seems like they would have to eliminate that loophole as well


PIC is not a loophole - it's codified, and the points are specifically designated as VIP-eligible. If they were to change that, that would be a true change to an existing program - not that they couldn't do that (as they did with housekeeping recently, VIP point levels, etc.), but it's different than closing a loophole.

From the directory: "Once you enroll your non-Wyndham week in PIC Plus, your week will be allocated a point value based on the unit size. Please refer to the PIC Plus Allocations chart below. *The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP eligibility*."


----------



## ilya

paxsarah said:


> PIC is not a loophole - it's codified, and the points are specifically designated as VIP-eligible. If they were to change that, that would be a true change to an existing program - not that they couldn't do that (as they did with housekeeping recently, VIP point levels, etc.), but it's different than closing a loophole.
> 
> From the directory: "Once you enroll your non-Wyndham week in PIC Plus, your week will be allocated a point value based on the unit size. Please refer to the PIC Plus Allocations chart below. *The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP eligibility*."




Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap  way of obtaining VIP.


----------



## paxsarah

ilya said:


> Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap  way of obtaining VIP.


As I said, they can do anything. They write the rules. I was just taking issue with the term "loophole." In this case, it's not closing a backdoor way to get something - it's a codified program.


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## HitchHiker71

ilya said:


> Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap  way of obtaining VIP.



When Privileges was first being formed - we were given explicit guidance from several senior Wyndham leaders that discussion was had specifically surrounding whether PIC contracts would still enjoy developer points status - the consensus at that time was nearly universal from the Sales & Marketing team that PIC should be left alone - as it is one of the key programs still in existence that results in a significant subset of revenue that outweighs the associated program costs.  As long as there's a significant revenue component that is profitable - I would be surprised if Wyndham were to make a decision to forgo a program that generates good revenue and profits.  That said, anything is possible as we all well know.  The decision points seems to be attached to major changes to the VIP program itself - so it's anyone's guess as to when the VIP program itself will be revisited - since the current VIP program rollout was just completed in Nov 2020.


----------



## Mongoose

ilya said:


> Yes, I understand it states in the contract but as with everything Wyndham is doing seems to be to eliminate a cheap  way of obtaining VIP.


That's not surprising.  Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated.  All the profit for them is in the developer sales.  Not much reason for them to reward resale.  That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?


----------



## paxsarah

Mongoose said:


> That's not surprising.  Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated.  All the profit for them is in the developer sales.  Not much reason for them to reward resale.  That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?


Just to clarify, the PIC program does not involve Wyndham resale points in any way. It involves an external weeks-based timeshare (which Wyndham doesn't care how you obtained - why would they?) and a purchase of retail Wyndham points. Every PIC contract involves a retail sale by Wyndham.


----------



## Mongoose

paxsarah said:


> Just to clarify, the PIC program does not involve Wyndham resale points in any way. It involves an external weeks-based timeshare (which Wyndham doesn't care how you obtained - why would they?) and a purchase of retail Wyndham points. Every PIC contract involves a retail sale by Wyndham.


I didn't know that.  Thanks.  Great feature.  HICV was something similar called Global Choice.  Just not sure all this talk of VIP status is worth the retail cost.


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## Eric B

Mongoose said:


> That's not surprising.  Resale owners only pay MF's. That keeps the units operating, maintained and renovated.  All the profit for them is in the developer sales.  Not much reason for them to reward resale.  That being said, how do Wyndham resale limitations compare to other brands?



Actually, owners of resale Wyndham contracts pay the program fees in addition to the maintenance fees.  The maintenance fees go to the HOAs to operate, maintain and renovate the specific resorts that are owned either directly or in trust, while the program fees go to Wyndham to operate the system for reservations/exchanges between the resorts.



HitchHiker71 said:


> .....
> PIC contracts [are] one of the key programs still in existence that results in a significant subset of revenue that outweighs the associated program costs.
> .....



That's not entirely surprising as one of the main benefits of having a PIC contract is to qualify for VIP levels whether or not you actually use the points in Club Wyndham.  Someone with two 3+ BR PICs winds up paying $335 in program fees per year for the additional VIP eligibility, but might not decide to convert their other weeks to points, instead using them for stays or RCI exchanges, another revenue for Wyndham.  It would be interesting to see how PIC contracts compare with actual PIC conversions to Wyndham points; most years I find other things to do with the weeks I have PIC contracts for.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> That's not entirely surprising as one of the main benefits of having a PIC contract is to qualify for VIP levels whether or not you actually use the points in Club Wyndham.  Someone with two 3+ BR PICs winds up paying $335 in program fees per year for the additional VIP eligibility, but might not decide to convert their other weeks to points, instead using them for stays or RCI exchanges, another revenue for Wyndham.  It would be interesting to see how PIC contracts compare with actual PIC conversions to Wyndham points; most years I find other things to do with the weeks I have PIC contracts for.



Yup - this is especially the case for PIC Express contracts - which _only _apply to account status - yet AFAIK still pay program fees. I'm not sure of the breakdown of Express vs Plus contracts and how many total points are in each bucket - that would be an interesting data point to know. Let's not forget the $89/contract points conversion fee for PIC Plus contracts as well. I personally convert my two PIC Plus contracts almost every year currently - though in future years we may consider actually using our fall OBX week every now and again. We really like second season down in OBX. I'm actually looking for a second prime season week at the same resort at present.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Updating the list of follow up questions to send off to our Wyndham contacts, please post any additional questions in reply:

If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?
Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?
If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?
Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?
Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?
Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?
Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations?  For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?
Statement:  “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.”  What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?
How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?
For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?
When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets?  Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?
If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final? 
Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?
Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?
When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?
When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?
What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations?  So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?  
Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?
Here's the three items we already sent and have answers on:

Q:  What does the "Rental Points" bucket in the graphics and videos refer to?
A:  Points Rental is referencing the number of points available to rent. Owners may rent up to the total amount of points owned when booking a reservation within the Express Booking window.
Q:  What is meant by the "complimentary points" reference?
A:  Complimentary Points – Additional one-time use points added into the next Use Year.
Q:  Will Wyndham allow VIP owners to utilize the Certified Exit program to feedback resale contracts that no longer can be used with VIP benefits?
A:  Wyndham Certified Exit- Yes, our team is committed to working with the owners on the best possible solutions based on their situation.


----------



## rickandcindy23

When it was Fairfield, new buyers could PIC many weeks, as many as they wanted.  As far as I know, PIC is only two weeks per developer purchase.  So even if you get 254,000 points X 2 for 3 bedroom red season units, you still would need a big purchase for a Platinum account.  We converted weeks to get our platinum account.  It was cheap, and I was grateful, and that is the only thing we will be keeping.  I can use that platinum account.  

My question is what kind of bill will I get after this audit.


----------



## 55plus

What audit? If you booked a reservation at half points, you had no way of not booking at half points.


----------



## 55plus

In other words, the website forced you to use your points as a VIP reservation. You had no choice.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Mongoose said:


> I didn't know that.  Thanks.  Great feature.  HICV was something similar called Global Choice.  Just not sure all this talk of VIP status is worth the retail cost.




Big difference between Global Choice and PIC is that global choice is $75 IF you decide to use it.  PIC requires a Developer purchases, had a Program fee to pay, and that may be even if you choose not to use it that year.  

So Global Choice is great option for HICV.


----------



## jebloomquist

tschwa2 said:


> To make that worth it to Wyndham I think it would have to be a 1 for 1. You want to bring in a million resale points, you have to buy a million retail points. Otherwise "legitimizing" millions of points with a $20,000-40,000 purchase might give them a boost now but wouldn't accomplish what they want it to do.


To offer something such as suggested here, Wyndham will have to do a serious cost/benefit analysis. 

With a 1 to 1 conversion, Wyndham would be charging about $100,000 for a 1 million point purchase to convert the 1 million resale points. That would certainly be too steep for me. 

Secondly, why would someone do this if the resulting 2 million points cannot be rented? 

I think that it is a really hard sales job to get owners to convert resale points. 

I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.

I think that Wyndham still has more shoes to drop, however with yet to be realized unintended consequences.


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## HitchHiker71

Deleted - just need to make a couple more changes and validations prior to republishing the answers received to date.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> Big difference between Global Choice and PIC is that global choice is $75 IF you decide to use it.  PIC requires a Developer purchases, had a Program fee to pay, and that may be even if you choose not to use it that year.
> 
> So Global Choice is great option for HICV.



The program fee is charged based upon the contracts in your account and the points values tied to each contract.  Since all PIC contracts contain points values (whether converted for use or simply used for account status), the program fee applies AFAIK.  I know it does for my two PIC Plus contracts - regardless of whether I convert the points or not.


----------



## Sandy VDH

HitchHiker71 said:


> The program fee is charged based upon the contracts in your account and the points values tied to each contract.  Since all PIC contracts contain points values (whether converted for use or simply used for account status), the program fee applies AFAIK.  I know it does for my two PIC Plus contracts - regardless of whether I convert the points or not.



Yes I was aware, I was just saying that Wyndham you have to buy developer to PIC, and pay the Program fee every year, even if you don't convert the PIC points to Wyndham points every year.  However on the HICV Global Choice you pay $75 for any week you want to convert to HICV points. NO developer purchase. and you only pay when you convert.  So HICV has a simpler and cheaper implementation of a similar concept.


----------



## HitchHiker71

jebloomquist said:


> To offer something such as suggested here, Wyndham will have to do a serious cost/benefit analysis.
> 
> With a 1 to 1 conversion, Wyndham would be charging about $100,000 for a 1 million point purchase to convert the 1 million resale points. That would certainly be too steep for me.
> 
> Secondly, why would someone do this if the resulting 2 million points cannot be rented?
> 
> I think that it is a really hard sales job to get owners to convert resale points.
> 
> I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.
> 
> I think that Wyndham still has more shoes to drop, however with yet to be realized unintended consequences.



People who hold million dollar contracts are rare - million plus point contracts in and of themselves are rare.  Let's use a real world example of an average VIP Silver owner who may hold resale contracts in the 105k-300k range at most.  Let's assume a sliding scale for the x:x requirement.  For a small contract like 105k resale - a 1:1 makes perfect sense.  A VIPS owner at 500k points - converting a 105k resale - would get 210k points closer to VIPG - and could up the retail points to 195k to move up to VIPG with a 105k resale conversion.  Would that be worth 25-30k to an owner?  Not here on TUG - but TUG is the exception - not the rule.  A VIPG owner like me - I could convert my 689k resale contract with a 344k retail contract purchase.  That would put me up to Founders level.  Would that be worth 40-50k?  It might be to some - which is the entire point.  Make the offer - I think Wyndham could generate quite a few resale to retail conversions between now and year end with a limited time program along this line for many VIPB, VIPS and VIPG or even VIPP owners looking to level up that currently hold resale.


----------



## Jimag

HitchHiker71 said:


> Deleted - just need to make a couple more changes and validations prior to republishing the answers received to date.



I've been following this thread on and off for several days.  I think something has been missed.  I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility.  The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP *STATUS* only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).

The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP *STATUS*.  Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member.  Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points."  Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved.  This is not a loophole or a scam.  All points entail the same maintenance fees.  Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms.  For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points.  Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.

The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.

Let me explain.  What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party.  I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract.  A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms.  Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.


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## CO skier

jebloomquist said:


> I think an alternative is what we will see. The resale market will soon be flooded with owners dumping points contracts. Many of the new owners, who will get these points dirt cheap, may not be as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners, say mega renters who needed to keep current with maintenance payments.


This same fear (a "flood" of resale contracts) was suggested when auto-upgrades were introduced that did away with predictable cancel/rebook for 50% discounts (or more) of premium 13-month reservations.  The "flood" never arrived -- at least not on Ebay or the TUG Marketplace.

At my home resort (and probably many other Wyndham resorts) it does not matter, because now like then, Wyndham pays up to $2,000 toward any foreclosures and pays the delinquent maintenance fees for any owners "not as diligent at paying the maintenance fees as the previous owners."

One of the HOAs at my home resort recently reported that the Wyndham program has reduced bad debt to 4%.  There are many independent timeshares that would be envious of this low amount of bad debt.


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## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> People who hold million dollar contracts are rare - million plus point contracts in and of themselves are rare.  Let's use a real world example of an average VIP Silver owner who may hold resale contracts in the 105k-300k range at most.  Let's assume a sliding scale for the x:x requirement.  For a small contract like 105k resale - a 1:1 makes perfect sense.  A VIPS owner at 500k points - converting a 105k resale - would get 210k points closer to VIPG - and could up the retail points to 195k to move up to VIPG with a 105k resale conversion.  Would that be worth 25-30k to an owner?  Not here on TUG - but TUG is the exception - not the rule.  A VIPG owner like me - I could convert my 689k resale contract with a 344k retail contract purchase.  That would put me up to Founders level.  Would that be worth 40-50k?  It might be to some - which is the entire point.  Make the offer - I think Wyndham could generate quite a few resale to retail conversions between now and year end with a limited time program along this line for many VIPB, VIPS and VIPG or even VIPP owners looking to level up that currently hold resale.


Would a program like that be fair to pure VIPs who do not have any resale contracts, and could not complete any resale additions before the end of the year with a resale purchase now?


----------



## Eric B

Jimag said:


> I've been following this thread on and off for several days.  I think something has been missed.  I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility.  The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP *STATUS* only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).
> 
> The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP *STATUS*.  Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member.  Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points."  Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved.  This is not a loophole or a scam.  All points entail the same maintenance fees.  Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms.  For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points.  Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.
> 
> The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.
> 
> Let me explain.  What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party.  I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract.  A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms.  Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.



Don’t forget that Wyndham reserves the right to change the VIP program at their sole discretion.  I agree with you that the last iterations of the program were quite inartfully drafted and plainly read as developer purchases, etc., are only necessary to achieve VIP status.  I looked at the 2014 version and it was pretty explicit that resale points were also ineligible for use with VIP benefits.  Neither really matters except to the extent that we characterize this as a change or starting to enforce a formerly explicit program rule.  Starting in August, the rule will be that resale points are separate.  IMHO, Wyndham has done a horrible job of managing the messaging here, glossing over the fact that the 2018-19 directory or earlier changed the program to make resale points eligible and not admitting that they are changing the rules back to what they were.  They also have what appears to be serious execution problems with establishing and running their systems that resulted in actual performance not matching their rules likely for decades.

I’m not sure it would be reasonable to expect much better from an organization that gets such a high proportion of its income from sales as opposed to from actually managing what it sells access to.  In the end, though, I don’t think it will really effect my usage given what I own and how I’ve been using it.  It does complicate what I have to track in parallel with their systems because of past indications that they can’t really be trusted.


----------



## paxsarah

Jimag said:


> Wyndham is changing the rules of the game


Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.

No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.


----------



## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.
> 
> No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.


It is real easy. If it is either the thirteen to ten month window, or sixty day window. If you read your original contract with Wyndham. Wyndham cannot do anything for an VIP owners during the ten month window, other than trinkets like presidential reserve.

Wyndham during the sixty day window Wyndham has access to all unused points. The one that really hurt Wyndham was cancel and rebook. The whole VIP program is based on breakage. Unused points and points Wyndham owns. Every point Wyndham can keep is money in their pocket. 

These latest changes are all oriented to the individual owner. Over memorial day weekend 98% of the resort was rental. Most of us know the answers, ARP is not a VIP benefit and any of the resorts can be booked with points from the trust. RARP is so no you can't use resale anymore. You can deposit forward. 

It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Jimag

paxsarah said:


> Exactly. And it’s within their purview to do so.
> 
> No matter how someone interprets the fact that the policy Wyndham is now moving to enforce was spelled out in the 2014-15 directory, then was removed (but not explicitly reversed) from the 2018-19 directory, in the end it doesn’t matter. Wyndham makes the rules. Wyndham can change the rules. I understand being frustrated, mad, disappointed, but it doesn’t change the fact that they can do what they did. Whether they’re only now enforcing a policy that always existed but wasn’t (able to be) enforced, or whether they’re reversing a previously held policy, they can do either or both.



Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules.  Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program.  I'm not suggesting that Wyndham would abolish the program, only that it could.  It clearly serves a business purpose.

The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner.  In this regard, please remember that my original comment illustrated how it is not just VIP members who have ownership interests not acquired through Wyndham who will lose something of value.  All ownership interests will lose some incremental value in the resale market by this change in the rules.

It's a matter of fairness and equity that some may think is actionable.


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## 55plus

raygo123 said:


> It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


How does one pull their deeds out of Club Wyndham? How does one reserve a timeframe (reservation) without access to the reservation? I can see problems....


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## dgalati

raygo123 said:


> It is real easy. If it is either the thirteen to ten month window, or sixty day window. If you read your original contract with Wyndham. Wyndham cannot do anything for an VIP owners during the ten month window, other than trinkets like presidential reserve.
> 
> Wyndham during the sixty day window Wyndham has access to all unused points. The one that really hurt Wyndham was cancel and rebook. The whole VIP program is based on breakage. Unused points and points Wyndham owns. Every point Wyndham can keep is money in their pocket.
> 
> These latest changes are all oriented to the individual owner. Over memorial day weekend 98% of the resort was rental. Most of us know the answers, ARP is not a VIP benefit and any of the resorts can be booked with points from the trust. RARP is so no you can't use resale anymore. You can deposit forward.
> 
> It may be in the best interest of a resale owner to not sell but to pull your deeds out of club Wyndham. There is a member that owns quite a few Sea Gardens deeds. The deeds have no affiliation with "Club Wyndham". No club fees etc.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Tell me more about pulling deeds out of the Club Wyndham and how this works.


----------



## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> Tell me more about pulling deeds out of the Club Wyndham and how this works.



If you have a fixed week conversion in Club Wyndham, you can simply unconvert it, revert it back to its original Fixed (or float) week.


----------



## bnoble

Jimag said:


> Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules. Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program.
> [...]
> The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner.


I am having trouble following you. If Wyndham is allowed to change the rules, why would they owe something to owners when they change them? If seems that the first two sentences I quoted provide a direct answer to the third one: "No."


----------



## dgalati

Ty1on said:


> If you have a fixed week conversion in Club Wyndham, you can simply unconvert it, revert it back to its original Fixed (or float) week.


Limits the use.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> Limits the use.


I might do that with my Bali Hai weeks.


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> I might do that with my Bali Hai weeks.



Dang it.  I was going to help you offload those.


----------



## Jimag

bnoble said:


> I am having trouble following you. If Wyndham is allowed to change the rules, why would they owe something to owners when they change them? If seems that the first two sentences I quoted provide a direct answer to the third one: "No."



It's not a matter of owe in a narrow sense.  It's a matter of running the program (maintaining a relationship) in good faith.

When Wyndham recently changed the rules regarding VIP levels existing VIP members were grandfathered under the new rules.  Apply the reasoning that Wyndham has absolute authority to change VIP program terms by fiat at any time means they did not need to grandfather existing VIP members under the new rules.  Think about this and what it means if Wyndham were to add additional VIP levels and juggle VIP benefits sometime in the future and decided not to grandfather existing VIP members to preserve their status and benefits.

What is the real value in purchasing ownership interests that confer VIP status, if it is a purchase that can be reneged at any time?

Once again, I say it is a matter of fairness and equity.


----------



## Eric B

Jimag said:


> Please note that nothing I wrote claims that Wyndham cannot change the rules.  Wyndham established the VIP program and Wyndham can disestablish the VIP program.  I'm not suggesting that Wyndham would abolish the program, only that it could.  It clearly serves a business purpose.
> 
> The question is whether members who have played by the rules of the game as established by Wyndham and who will experience a loss because of a change in the rules should be made whole in some manner.  In this regard, please remember that my original comment illustrated how it is not just VIP members who have ownership interests not acquired through Wyndham who will lose something of value.  All ownership interests will lose some incremental value in the resale market by this change in the rules.
> 
> It's a matter of fairness and equity that some may think is actionable.





Jimag said:


> It's not a matter of owe in a narrow sense.  It's a matter of running the program (maintaining a relationship) in good faith.
> 
> When Wyndham recently changed the rules regarding VIP levels existing VIP members were grandfathered under the new rules.  Apply the reasoning that Wyndham has absolute authority to change VIP program terms by fiat at any time means they did not need to grandfather existing VIP members under the new rules.  Think about this and what it means if Wyndham were to add additional VIP levels and juggle VIP benefits sometime in the future and decided not to grandfather existing VIP members to preserve their status and benefits.
> 
> What is the real value in purchasing ownership interests that confer VIP status, if it is a purchase that can be reneged at any time?
> 
> Once again, I say it is a matter of fairness and equity.



I believe that the complimentary points in the next use year that Wyndham promised is their way of addressing the fairness and equity issues.  We don’t have to like it, but it’s their sandbox.  One positive though - this gives you a fabulous thing to say at your next update about why you won’t buy any more from them.


----------



## raygo123

dgalati said:


> Limits the use.


Not if you have rented it every year anyway. 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B

dgalati said:


> Limits the use.



… commensurate with the costs….


----------



## Jimag

Eric B said:


> I believe that the complimentary points in the next use year that Wyndham promised is their way of addressing the fairness and equity issues.  We don’t have to like it, but it’s their sandbox.  One positive though - this gives you a fabulous thing to say at your next update about why you won’t buy any more from them.



There are many reasons but this is one of the best.  Maybe my next update will be the last to which I'm invited.


----------



## Ty1on

Jimag said:


> I've been following this thread on and off for several days.  I think something has been missed.  I have checked the last two editions of the Owners' Handbook/Directory regarding VIP eligibility.  The language is inartfully drafted, but both iterations state that a member may achieve VIP *STATUS* only by: (1) purchasing Club Wyndham Plus points directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates; (2) inheriting ownership interests (the language does not specify the inheritance must be from an immediate relative or that the inherited points must have been purchased directly from Wyndham); (3) acquiring ownership interests that were previously acquired by an immediate relative (the language does not specify such points must have been acquired by the relative through direct Wyndham purchase); and (4) making use of the PIC program (resale ownerships are not precluded from the PIC program because the ownership interests enrolled in the PIC program are non-Wyndham ownerships).
> 
> The important take away is that Wyndham has established a program whereby Club Wyndham Plus Members may receive certain additional benefits by achieving VIP *STATUS*.  Once such status is achieved the terms established by Wyndham do not distinguish between points owned by a VIP member.  Wyndham is changing the rules of the game by inventing the term "non-VIP eligible points."  Previously the eligibility criteria only counted in conferring status not program benefits once status is achieved.  This is not a loophole or a scam.  All points entail the same maintenance fees.  Wyndham wrote the original VIP program terms.  For whatever reason, Wyndham did not restrict VIP program benefits to directly purchased points.  Doing so now is tantamount to acting in bad faith.
> 
> The VIP program changes announced by Wyndham are significant not only for those members who have VIP status and own points that do not count toward such status, but also for all Club Wyndham Plus members.
> 
> Let me explain.  What we purchased directly from Wyndham was conveyed without any limitation on our conveying it to a third party.  I know that Wyndham ownership interests have a pitiful resale value in the current market. However, the possibility that a contract can be resold for something greater than what Wyndham offers through Ovation or otherwise adds more than de minimis value to the contract.  A member with VIP status, who is not concerned with achieving higher VIP status, presently may very well place a higher value on a resale contract than such member will under the new VIP program terms.  Everyone should understand that it is not just VIP members with resale points that are losing something under the new VIP program terms.



The error in your logic, imho, is that you assume that because Wyndham wasn't distinguishing between VIP and non VIP when applying VIP benefits, you have the contractual right to those benefits being applied to non VIP, and I don't think that is, or should be, the case.

Also, I think you are stretching to get to the change affecting VIPs with no resale and non-VIPs if you have to go to resale value to get there.  Contracts have been devalued on resale for a very long time, and slightly more devaluation because of reduced demand among the handful of VIPs that would have been pursuing resales to apply VIP benefits to them hardly moves the needle.


----------



## Jimag

Ty1on said:


> The error in your logic, imho, is that you assume that because Wyndham wasn't distinguishing between VIP and non VIP when applying VIP benefits, you have the contractual right to those benefits being applied to non VIP, and I don't think that is, or should be, the case.
> 
> Also, I think you are stretching to get to the change affecting VIPs with no resale and non-VIPs if you have to go to resale value to get there.  Contracts have been devalued on resale for a very long time, and slightly more devaluation because of reduced demand among the handful of VIPs that would have been pursuing resales to apply VIP benefits to them hardly moves the needle.



I understand your views, but please recognize that I did not assert a contractual right.  Take a look at my subsequent posts.  I think I clarified my position.  As for the impact on all members not just VIPs with resale points, all I said was that the negative impact on value of a contract would not be de minimis.


----------



## Ty1on

Jimag said:


> I understand your views, but please recognize that I did not assert a contractual right.  Take a look at my subsequent posts.  I think I clarified my position.  As for the impact on all members not just VIPs with resale points, all I said was that the negative impact on value of a contract would not be de minimis.



The negative value exerted on a contract would be de minimis, in my opinion, because the value of most contracts is near zero to begin with.


----------



## Jimag

Ty1on said:


> The negative value exerted on a contract would be de minimis, in my opinion, because the value of most contracts is near zero to begin with.


Ok, that's just not my opinion.


----------



## 55plus

A contract is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and that's based somewhat on supply and demand.


----------



## Jimag

55plus said:


> A contract is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and that's based somewhat on supply and demand.


I can't argue with that.  Just curious, what would you have said if every time Wyndham made changes to the VIP program your status and benefits were not preserved?  The arguments being advanced are that Wyndham can at any time make any change to the VIP program without regard to the impact on a member's status or benefits.  All I say is the ability to act by fiat is tempered by the requiring Wyndham to act in good faith, fairness, and equity.


----------



## 55plus

Agree... I remember when Wyndham made a change to the VIP program. My VIP Platinum ownership lost something that some would consider a value. As I recall all we lost unlimited GCs, which didn't impact us, so I can't argue. I can't think of a time going on 30 years since we owned we gained something from a change, however, many resorts were added over the years. So, in a way we did gain something of value. I figure I'm ahead by gaining access to all the many added resorts over the years. That's how all us original Fairfield overs should feel. I guess one could say, I'm a OG (original gangster) in the Wyndham system.


----------



## Jimag

55plus said:


> Agree... I remember when Wyndham made a change to the VIP program. My VIP Platinum ownership lost something that some would consider a value. As I recall all we lost unlimited GCs, which didn't impact us, so I can't argue. I can't think of a time going on 30 years since we owned we gained something from a change, however, many resorts were added over the years. So, in a way we did gain something of value. I figure I'm ahead by gaining access to all the many added resorts over the years. That's how all us original Fairfield overs should feel. I guess one could say, I'm a OG (original gangster) in the Wyndham system.


----------



## troy12n

Jimag said:


> I can't argue with that.  Just curious, what would you have said if every time Wyndham made changes to the VIP program your status and benefits were not preserved?  The arguments being advanced are that Wyndham can at any time make any change to the VIP program without regard to the impact on a member's status or benefits.  All I say is the ability to act by fiat is tempered by the requiring Wyndham to act in good faith, fairness, and equity.



Pure speculation, but Wyndham knows to tread on this aspect *VERY* lightly...

Timeshares, in general already have a _*HORRIBLE*_ reputation for shrewd tactics and downright dishonesty. Wyndham, seems to be making some effort to change that, at least when it comes to their brand.

Ripping out benefits VIP's paid for would definitely not be in their best interest. And would not be a good look for "the brand"... so I do not see that happening. That's why they have always grandfathered in the benefits when they changed the VIP program. I guess with the exception of unlimited GC's at the Platinum level. Which was another step i'm sure to try to discourage mega renters that didn't work.

Leveraging VIP benefits on resale contracts is clearly something that was never allowed as a codified right. As many others have pointed out, this was actually spelled out in the directory at one point. But it was something Wyndham allowed... for whatever reason, or at the least, looked the other way. For a long time.

That time is over, and you can't with a straight face say that this is something that you didn't think would end, and that somehow you are now cheated out of a benefit... paying pennies on the dollar for points and leveraging the VIP benefits for years (or for however long you did it) was a loophole at best. Technical or otherwise. You got your use, owners have to take the time to decide whether to cut your losses and make a decision about what to do with their resale points. As this isn't a fight that can be won.


----------



## Jimag

troy12n said:


> Pure speculation, but Wyndham knows to tread on this aspect *VERY* lightly...
> 
> Timeshares, in general already have a _*HORRIBLE*_ reputation for shrewd tactics and downright dishonesty. Wyndham, seems to be making some effort to change that, at least when it comes to their brand.
> 
> Ripping out benefits VIP's paid for would definitely not be in their best interest. And would not be a good look for "the brand"... so I do not see that happening. That's why they have always grandfathered in the benefits when they changed the VIP program. I guess with the exception of unlimited GC's at the Platinum level. Which was another step i'm sure to try to discourage mega renters that didn't work.
> 
> Leveraging VIP benefits on resale contracts is clearly something that was never allowed as a codified right. As many others have pointed out, this was actually spelled out in the directory at one point. But it was something Wyndham allowed... for whatever reason, or at the least, looked the other way. For a long time.
> 
> That time is over, and you can't with a straight face say that this is something that you didn't think would end, and that somehow you are now cheated out of a benefit... paying pennies on the dollar for points and leveraging the VIP benefits for years (or for however long you did it) was a loophole at best. Technical or otherwise. You got your use, owners have to take the time to decide whether to cut your losses and make a decision about what to do with their resale points. As this isn't a fight that can be won.



I only have the last two iterations of the VIP program rules.  This is the second time someone has responded to my posts by referring to an earlier directory that explicitly disallowed VIP benfits to resale points.  Would it be possible to post a screenshot of the earlier VIP program rules or at least post an excerpt of those rules.  It would be much appreciated.


----------



## Jimag

troy12n said:


> Pure speculation, but Wyndham knows to tread on this aspect *VERY* lightly...
> 
> Timeshares, in general already have a _*HORRIBLE*_ reputation for shrewd tactics and downright dishonesty. Wyndham, seems to be making some effort to change that, at least when it comes to their brand.
> 
> Ripping out benefits VIP's paid for would definitely not be in their best interest. And would not be a good look for "the brand"... so I do not see that happening. That's why they have always grandfathered in the benefits when they changed the VIP program. I guess with the exception of unlimited GC's at the Platinum level. Which was another step i'm sure to try to discourage mega renters that didn't work.
> 
> Leveraging VIP benefits on resale contracts is clearly something that was never allowed as a codified right. As many others have pointed out, this was actually spelled out in the directory at one point. But it was something Wyndham allowed... for whatever reason, or at the least, looked the other way. For a long time.
> 
> That time is over, and you can't with a straight face say that this is something that you didn't think would end, and that somehow you are now cheated out of a benefit... paying pennies on the dollar for points and leveraging the VIP benefits for years (or for however long you did it) was a loophole at best. Technical or otherwise. You got your use, owners have to take the time to decide whether to cut your losses and make a decision about what to do with their resale points. As this isn't a fight that can be won.



You said: "Leveraging VIP benefits on resale contracts is clearly something that was never allowed as a codified right."

It's becoming quite clear that there are no VIP program "codified" rights.  If the only thing restraining Wyndham from making changes to the VIP program negatively affecting VIP members is *self interest*, it becomes easy to question the real value of making a direct purchase with an eye to attaining VIP status.


----------



## troy12n

Jimag said:


> You said: "Leveraging VIP benefits on resale contracts is clearly something that was never allowed as a codified right."
> 
> It's becoming quite clear that there are no VIP program "codified" rights.  If the only thing restraining Wyndham from making changes to the VIP program negatively affecting VIP members is *self interest*, it becomes easy to question the real value of making a direct purchase with an eye to attaining VIP status.



Which ties back to "reputation", which impacts future sales... 

If they screw over an entire generation of existing VIP owners, that word will get out. Sales will be impacted. That's what's stopping companies from doing stuff like that.


----------



## bnoble

Jimag said:


> it becomes easy to question the real value of making a direct purchase with an eye to attaining VIP status.


From where I sit, it was easy for a very long time.



troy12n said:


> Which ties back to "reputation", which impacts future sales...


I'm not sure that matters all that much. In general, the reputation of timeshare is slightly below used car sales, yet here we are.


----------



## raygo123

Jimag said:


> It's not a matter of owe in a narrow sense. It's a matter of running the program (maintaining a relationship) in good faith.
> 
> When Wyndham recently changed the rules regarding VIP levels existing VIP members were grandfathered under the new rules. Apply the reasoning that Wyndham has absolute authority to change VIP program terms by fiat at any time means they did not need to grandfather existing VIP members under the new rules. Think about this and what it means if Wyndham were to add additional VIP levels and juggle VIP benefits sometime in the future and decided not to grandfather existing VIP members to preserve their status and benefits.
> 
> What is the real value in purchasing ownership interests that confer VIP status, if it is a purchase that can be reneged at any time?
> 
> Once again, I say it is a matter of fairness and equity.


There is no such thing as good faith. If you have ever gone to a update Wyndham will deny their existance. The ONLY PLACE I have ever heard that resale points get VIP benefits is here Facebook and other owners. Because Wyndham could not control the use of resale points does not mean they liked it.n good faith would have to first take place by owners not taking advantage of the loophole.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jimag

Two commenters have referred to early VIP program rules that specifically precluded resale points from receiving VIP benefits as distinguished from conferring VIP status.  Could someone who has a copy of those rules please post them?

It would be much appreciated.


----------



## paxsarah

Jimag said:


> Two commenters have referred to early VIP program rules that specifically precluded resale points from receiving VIP benefits as distinguished from conferring VIP status.  Could someone who has a copy of those rules please post them?
> 
> It would be much appreciated.


Page 345 of the 2014-15 owner directory (linked in this post):


----------



## Jimag

raygo123 said:


> There is no such thing as good faith. If you have ever gone to a update Wyndham will deny their existance. The ONLY PLACE I have ever heard that resale points get VIP benefits is here Facebook and other owners. Because Wyndham could not control the use of resale points does not mean they liked it.n good faith would have to first take place by owners not taking advantage of the loophole.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



What technological advance has enabled Wyndham to control the use of resale points now?  And, please stop referring to it as a loophole.  The term has a negative connotation.  What we are talking about is not underhanded.  The program rules clearly stated what points would confer VIP status.  The rules could, but do not, differentiate between resale and directly purchased points once VIP status is attained.  Those are the current rules.  It is not a loophole.  It is reasonable to conclude that, when Wyndham established the rules, the concern was with establishing the requirements for attaining the different levels of VIP status not with how different points owned by a VIP member would be treated.


paxsarah said:


> Page 345 of the 2014-15 owner directory (linked in this post):
> View attachment 37962


Thanks.  The last bullet is interesting.  It would preclude VIP benefits from a booking using a guest certificate unless the VIP member is present.  That would include family members not on the contract.  I hope no one thinks that is still in effect.


----------



## Eric B

Jimag said:


> Thanks. The last bullet is interesting. It would preclude VIP benefits from a booking using a guest certificate unless the VIP member is present. That would include family members not on the contract. I hope no one thinks that is still in effect.



That last bullet actually refers to the VIP benefits that are pertinent to the stay itself, not the reservation.  It used to include the mid-week tidy and still includes the early check in.  The restriction is continued in the current version of the directory the same way.  It wouldn't include the issuance of a guest certificate using the VIP allotment because that is done before the stay; the use of a guest certificate is not a VIP benefit.


----------



## paxsarah

Eric B said:


> It used to include the mid-week tidy and still includes the early check in.


Probably also still the newspaper at the time this was published.


----------



## troy12n

Jimag said:


> What technological advance has enabled Wyndham to control the use of resale points now?



Maybe not a technical advance, but a change in how the front-end website is able to query the back end database, which stores all the details about the contracts.

None of us know for sure, but for whatever reason, Wyndham chose to not build into their system a way to discriminate which points to take from a particular contract.

Perhaps it was not cost effective to do so. None of us know, and it would be foolish to speculate. But the point is, they are doing it now...




> And, please stop referring to it as a loophole.  The term has a negative connotation.  What we are talking about is not underhanded.



It IS a loophole. Period. Intent is immaterial. But while we are talking about intent... most people who exploited the loophole bought their resale points with the express intent of exploiting the loophole to leverage VIP benefits on points they were really not entitled to.

It was wrong, you know it was wrong, call it a loophole, or free ride, or gaming the system or some other term you may find offensive (which I really don't care...), but the free ride is over. 

So keep on talking about underhandedness... and too bad if you think the term has a negative connotation. It probably should. Especially in the context of how mega renters exploited the loophole to the extreme to make profits for themselves, while freezing other owners out of prime bookings...

It really tires me how some of you are trying to legitimize your past activity.

My neighbor has a habit of leaving his front door unlocked, and his windows and garage door open all weekend. He's been doing it for years. Every once in a while, someone might come by and borrow a soda out of his garage fridge. He didn't care much, wasn't worth the effort for him to close the door.

One day, someone took 2 sodas, and he had enough... he closed the garage door.

His neighbors expecting free sodas, who felt entitled to the free benefit they have been enjoying for years confronted him about it.

He gave them the finger, and walked away...

This is what Wyndham is doing.


----------



## WhiskeyJack

So a previous 2014-2015 owner directory had a provision in it limiting VIP benefits to developer purchased points.  However as has been pointed out by Jimag and others the current owner directory does not have this provision.  The current owner directory is what matters as it replaced the previous one and is what all Wyndham members are currently operating under.  Since this provision is not in the current owner directory then I don't believe it is appropriate for Wyndham to retroactively apply a change preventing resale points from using VIP benefits.  Yes they have the right to make any changes they want going forward but the issue I have is with them applying this retroactively to your current use year.  The complimentary points are likely being offered as a counter to offset the loss of points that will result as a result of this retroactive change, but I am very skeptical they will be a true equal offset.


----------



## Jimag

Jimag said:


> What technological advance has enabled Wyndham to control the use of resale points now?  And, please stop referring to it as a loophole.  The term has a negative connotation.  What we are talking about is not underhanded.  The program rules clearly stated what points would confer VIP status.  The rules could, but do not, differentiate between resale and directly purchased points once VIP status is attained.  Those are the current rules.  It is not a loophole.  It is reasonable to conclude that, when Wyndham established the rules, the concern was with establishing the requirements for attaining the different levels of VIP status not with how different points owned by a VIP member would be treated.
> 
> Thanks.  The last bullet is interesting.  It would preclude VIP benefits from a booking using a guest certificate unless the VIP member is present.  That would include family members not on the contract.  I hope no one thinks that is still in effect.





troy12n said:


> Maybe not a technical advance, but a change in how the front-end website is able to query the back end database, which stores all the details about the contracts.
> 
> None of us know for sure, but for whatever reason, Wyndham chose to not build into their system a way to discriminate which points to take from a particular contract.
> 
> Perhaps it was not cost effective to do so. None of us know, and it would be foolish to speculate. But the point is, they are doing it now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It IS a loophole. Period. Intent is immaterial. But while we are talking about intent... most people who exploited the loophole bought their resale points with the express intent of exploiting the loophole to leverage VIP benefits on points they were really not entitled to.
> 
> It was wrong, you know it was wrong, call it a loophole, or free ride, or gaming the system or some other term you may find offensive (which I really don't care...), but the free ride is over.
> 
> So keep on talking about underhandedness... and too bad if you think the term has a negative connotation. It probably should. Especially in the context of how mega renters exploited the loophole to the extreme to make profits for themselves, while freezing other owners out of prime bookings...
> 
> It really tires me how some of you are trying to legitimize your past activity.
> 
> My neighbor has a habit of leaving his front door unlocked, and his windows and garage door open all weekend. He's been doing it for years. Every once in a while, someone might come by and borrow a soda out of his garage fridge. He didn't care much, wasn't worth the effort for him to close the door.
> 
> One day, someone took 2 sodas, and he had enough... he closed the garage door.
> 
> His neighbors expecting free sodas, who felt entitled to the free benefit they have been enjoying for years confronted him about it.
> 
> He gave them the finger, and walked away...
> 
> This is what Wyndham is doing.



I understand your perspective very well.  I would share it, if I were concerned with making direct sales for Wyndham, but I'm not.  I am concerned with my ownership and by extension the ownership of other members.

From a sales perspective, I would question the continued existence of the PIC program as well as the corporate Telesales program.  Ending those initiatives would close other "loopholes" from a sales perspective would it not? The only problem with ending them is that it would run counter to other corporate interests.


----------



## troy12n

Jimag said:


> I understand your perspective very well.  I would share it, if I were concerned with making direct sales for Wyndham, but I'm not.  I am concerned with my ownership and by extension the ownership of other members.



You seem to think I care about Wyndham's sales. I don't. I am using the examples of why I think they are doing it, and that's to promote/preserve sales. Not because I really care if they sell or not. 

I care about preserving my ownership as well. The benefits I paid full price for. Not the ones I bought second hand for pennies on the dollar... you got benefits for something you shouldn't have 



> From a sales perspective, I would question the continued existence of the PIC program as well as the corporate Telesales program.  Ending those initiatives would close other "loopholes" from a sales perspective would it not? The only problem with ending them is that it would run counter to other corporate interests.



PIC is not a loophole, it's a codified part of the Club Wyndham system. And requires a full price retail purchase. Wyndham gets something (inventory they can put into RCI, and hence profit) for it. Unlike you leeching VIP benefits you didn't pay for. 

A loophole is an undocumented, underhanded way to get a benefit you didn't pay for... no matter how you slice it or try to justify your cheating the system for as long as you have. You should just be happy you got to do it for whatever timeframe you did, and pack your bags and go home, not cry about it like a sore loser... it's really unbecoming.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

troy12n said:


> Maybe not a technical advance, but a change in how the front-end website is able to query the back end database, which stores all the details about the contracts.
> None of us know for sure, but for whatever reason, Wyndham chose to not build into their system a way to discriminate which points to take from a particular contract.
> Perhaps it was not cost effective to do so. None of us know, and it would be foolish to speculate. But the point is, they are doing it now...
> 
> It IS a loophole ......



For the purposes of this TUG thread I would suggest the term-"  knothole"
As in ; "Wyndham has plugged that knothole "

Or as in -"the moderator put a cork in that knothole ........"


----------



## dgalati

Jimag said:


> I understand your perspective very well.  I would share it, if I were concerned with making direct sales for Wyndham, but I'm not.  I am concerned with my ownership and by extension the ownership of other members.
> 
> From a sales perspective, I would question the continued existence of the PIC program as well as the corporate Telesales program.  Ending those initiatives would close other "loopholes" from a sales perspective would it not? The only problem with ending them is that it would run counter to other corporate interests.


@55plus  wasn't the only one emailing Micheal Brown! This sounds like when I started calling out the abuse on resale points being used with VIP benefits and discounts. The only difference is the PIC program was listed in the member directory as a benefit.. Unlike resale points that were never a benefit or spelled out as one. It was also in members directory that resale points could not be used with VIP benefits. Unfortunately Wyndham omitted the language and some VIP owners called me out on my statement that it was a loophole. Some were so sure that it was a benefit same as cancel and re book. Wyndham decided that both were costing way to much to let the abuse continue.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> @55plus  wasn't the only one emailing Micheal Brown! This sounds like when I started calling out the abuse on resale points being used with VIP benefits and discounts. The only difference is the PIC program was listed in the member directory as a benefit. Unlike resale points that were never a benefit or spelled out as one. It was also in members directory that resale points could not be used with VIP benefits. Unfortunately Wyndham omitted the language and some VIP owners called me out on my statement that it was a loophole. Some were so sure that it was a benefit same as cancel and re book. Wyndham decided that both were costing way to much to let the abuse continue.


I never complained about VIPs benefiting from using resale points, that was you and only you. My emails were thanking Wyndham after implementing the changes that stifle renting, which I turn freeing up primetime reservations so those who use their for personal use can actually book a reservation during those timeframes.


----------



## troy12n

55plus said:


> I never complained about VIPs benefiting from using resale points, that was you and only you. My emails were thanking Wyndham after implementing the changes that stifle renting, which I turn freeing up primetime reservations so those who use their for personal use can actually book a reservation during those timeframes.



I still can't get over the moochers and freeloaders here playing the victim card, it's really outrageous


----------



## Eric B

troy12n said:


> I still can't get over the moochers and freeloaders here playing the victim card, it's really outrageous



You might consider popping for the $15 to support TUG and its mission of providing a member-supported forum for sharing information on using timeshares, then.


----------



## troy12n

Eric B said:


> You might consider popping for the $15 to support TUG and its mission of providing a member-supported forum for sharing information on using timeshares, then.



But I need that money to buy GC's...


----------



## Eric B

Ooookaaay….


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> I still can't get over the moochers and freeloaders here playing the victim card, it's really outrageous





troy12n said:


> I still can't get over the moochers and freeloaders here playing the victim card, it's really outrageous


Yeah a lot of VIP owners that were renting with resale points while using VIP benefits  and free upgrades are playing that card now.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I never complained about VIPs benefiting from using resale points, that was you and only you. My emails were thanking Wyndham after implementing the changes that stifle renting, which I turn freeing up primetime reservations so those who use their for personal use can actually book a reservation during those timeframes.


How much did it cost all owners from this abuse of a loophole. 130 Free GC's let alone the free HK's . Let's talk about the availability that was used at owners expense when they could not book for personal use. Using resale points with VIP benefits for rentals was a big reason a owner could not find availability. Believe it or not Vip Owners abused this to the point it was costing Wyndham to much money then it was worth sales selling as a VIP benefit


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> But I need that money to buy GC's...


Buy the 3 or 5 year deal for the disount to pay GC's


----------



## am1

The heat here is misplaced.  Wyndham sold VIP as a way to use resale points as VIP.  Then there are other issues Wyndham has mishandled but no one cares.  Its easier to blame VIP resale owners.


----------



## ronparise

Jimag said:


> I only have the last two iterations of the VIP program rules.  This is the second time someone has responded to my posts by referring to an earlier directory that explicitly disallowed VIP benfits to resale points.  Would it be possible to post a screenshot of the earlier VIP program rules or at least post an excerpt of those rules.  It would be much appreciated.



this is from the 2012-13 directory pg 331 This directory is posted in the Tug Wyndham forum stickies  (I posted it and its still there


----------



## Jimag

Good night everyone.


----------



## raygo123

Jimag said:


> Good night everyone.


I feel sorry for you. Your no more than a victim of tug. You chose to follow the suggestions and then you got burnt. The writing was on the wall for a few years now. Your the guy on the bottom that just got here to late! You missed the days of the Wyndham"wild wild west". It seems you are one of the few that thought it would last forever. Suck it in. It was nice while it lasted. The first hint was limiting how many units at a resort a renter can book. Next was cancel and rebook. Cancel and rebook was also a loophole that was closed. Year after year and presentation after presentation we are told resale points do not receive VIP benefits. 

This isn't new. Only a fool in heaven didn't know this was coming. Wyndham doesn't want you. They never did. Not Wyndham is exerting pain to make you either go away or enjoy timesharing. It don't take many meta renters who own 50,000,000 or even ten, fifty million easily turns into at least,'at least, 100,000,000. I wish you well, but just too late.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jimag

raygo123 said:


> I feel sorry for you. Your no more than a victim of tug. You chose to follow the suggestions and then you got burnt. The writing was on the wall for a few years now. Your the guy on the bottom that just got here to late! You missed the days of the Wyndham"wild wild west". It seems you are one of the few that thought it would last forever. Suck it in. It was nice while it lasted. The first hint was limiting how many units at a resort a renter can book. Next was cancel and rebook. Cancel and rebook was also a loophole that was closed. Year after year and presentation after presentation we are told resale points do not receive VIP benefits.
> 
> This isn't new. Only a fool in heaven didn't know this was coming. Wyndham doesn't want you. They never did. Not Wyndham is exerting pain to make you either go away or enjoy timesharing. It don't take many meta renters who own 50,000,000 or even ten, fifty million easily turns into at least,'at least, 100,000,000. I wish you well, but just too late.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Wow!  What's that about -- "Victim of TUG"?  What perspective are you coming from?  Don't tell me, I would rather guess.  I enjoy looking at things from different perspectives.  It's more or less what I did for a living.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I never complained about VIPs benefiting from using resale points, that was you and only you. .





ronparise said:


> this is from the 2012-13 directory pg 331 This directory is posted in the Tug Wyndham forum stickies  (I posted it and its still there
> View attachment 37963


I was not the only one @ronparise mentioned it several years back. I also mentioned it a "few" times to let owners know it wasn't a benefit as stated in members directory. It was just another strategy for sales to sell more points. I was really suprised how many owners believed it was a benefit and not a loophole.


----------



## raygo123

Jimag said:


> Wow! What's that about -- "Victim of TUG"? What perspective are you coming from? Don't tell me, I would rather guess. I enjoy looking at things from different perspectives. It's more or less what I did for a living.


Yep. Not a different, but the perspective. It is you that are out of step. I'm the guy that used the tips upto what I wanted to do with my timeshare. For years this topic has been discussed. I think I can say that the concensus is it is a loophole. Getting away with it for years and you want compensation? For getting away with getting a minimum of double there value? You got to admit that even sounds nuts!

It sounds too good to be true, and it wasn't.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I was not the only one @ronparise mentioned it several years back. I also mentioned it a "few" times to let owners know it wasn't a benefit as stated in members directory. It was just another strategy for sales to sell more points. I was really suprised how many owners believed it was a benefit and not a loophole.


Really? You had to go back to 2012 to try to prove a point. Really? That's almost 10 years old. Really?


----------



## ladawgfan

raygo123 said:


> I just received the email for Wyndham owners without resale. No mention of resale points.



Is this the follow-up email someone mentioned would be sent by Wyndham to clarify the wording on the website? Can you post the email here for those of us that didn't receive it?


----------



## paxsarah

ladawgfan said:


> Is this the follow-up email someone mentioned would be sent by Wyndham to clarify the wording on the website? Can you post the email here for those of us that didn't receive it?


No, this was the one to all other owners (vs. the one to owners specifically affected by the VIP/resale issue). The one raygo was referring to was super general, and the webpage it linked to was also super general.

Here's the relevant text from the email:


> Enhancing Your Online Experience We’re excited to share a new feature coming soon to your Club Wyndham website that will streamline the vacation planning process and give you a more comprehensive view of your membership. In mid-August, we will introduce a new online Benefits Summary so you can easily track your benefits and have greater visibility into the points you have available.
> 
> Upon booking a resort reservation or making another type of transaction online, the Benefits Summary will update automatically to reflect your current points and benefits — giving you more control over how you use your membership to make memories of a lifetime.


And the text from the included link:


> *Online Benefits Summary*
> A new feature on your Club Wyndham website is on the way to help streamline your vacation planning process and provide a more comprehensive view of your membership.
> *What’s New?*
> In mid-August, a new online Benefits Summary will be introduced allowing you to track your benefits and give you more visibility into the points you have available.
> *How Will It Work? *
> Upon booking a resort reservation or making another type of transaction on your Club Wyndham website, the Benefits Summary will update automatically to reflect your current points and benefits.
> *Why The Update?*
> This new tool puts you in the driver’s seat, giving you more control over how you use your membership and making it easier than ever to check destinations off your bucket list.
> For more information, sign up for an upcoming owner education session.



As an added note, the link to the owner education session gives a different choice of dates than the one on the VIP/resale version of the webpage.


----------



## paxsarah

55plus said:


> Really? You had to go back to 2012 to try to prove a point. Really? That's almost 10 years old. Really?


As I posted a bit earlier in the thread, the same language is in the 2014-15 directory, which was the current, in-print directory through June of 2018 (when the current directory came out), so only 3 years ago.


----------



## dgalati

ronparise said:


> this is from the 2012-13 directory pg 331 This directory is posted in the Tug Wyndham forum stickies  (I posted it and its still there
> View attachment 37963





55plus said:


> Really? You had to go back to 2012 to try to prove a point. Really? That's almost 10 years old. Really?


Actually @ronparise re posted this information yesterday. Scroll back 9 posts, Its post #456 above.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below.  The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:


*If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?*
Yes, whether with CWS or CWA and across both the developer and resale points buckets - same ARP contract combination rules as are in place today.



*Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?* 
No, but resale will be prioritized over retail for PDF transactions.  Just like today - separate PDF transactions will result in separate fees. 



*If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?*
Yes, normal borrowing should apply but if any amount of resale points are borrowed the reservation will be considered a resale reservation and VIP benefits will not apply.



*Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?* 
Yes they are.



*Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?* 
No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits.  For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope. 



*Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?* 
No - because the variety of use cases and the minority of owners impacted (only 4000 owners currently hold resale contracts consisting of roughly 2xk contracts).



*Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?* 
No, no additional changes for resale are in scope for this planned change other than what has already been announced to VIP owners.



*Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?* 
The statement was meant to address VIP privileges such as RARP, MVC booking windows, etc. No changes to resale contracts are planned.



*How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?* 
It won't.  For resale transactions - if your allotments of GCs/HKs/RTs have already been used - a zero balance will show post system change - no negative balances and/or additional fees will be charged retroactively. 



*For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?* 
Yes.  Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.



*When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?*
Yes you will choose which points bucket from which to borrow.



*If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?* 
Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.



*Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?* 
Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.



*Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?* 
At most the balances would be zero'd out - no negative balances will exist.  Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.



*When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?* 
The best practice is to wait until go-live before contacting Owner Resolution as many of the answers won't really make sense until you see the system changes for yourself.



*When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?* 
Sometime between Q3 and Q4 is the expected release date for the updated member directory.



*What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?* 
Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.



*Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?* 
Yes.  When performing PDFs you should be able to choose from All Points, Developer Points, or Resale points buckets.  If you choose All points, resale points will transfer automatically before Developer points.  If you choose more points than your resale bucket has available, then the remainder of the points will be taken from your Developer points bucket.  Separate transactions will warrant separate fees - just as they do today.


----------



## ladawgfan

paxsarah said:


> No, this was the one to all other owners (vs. the one to owners specifically affected by the VIP/resale issue). The one raygo was referring to was super general, and the webpage it linked to was also super general.
> 
> Here's the relevant text from the email:
> 
> And the text from the included link:
> 
> 
> As an added note, the link to the owner education session gives a different choice of dates than the one on the VIP/resale version of the webpage.



Thanks, but now I'm even more confused! I don't think I received an email regarding the "VIP/resale" issue either. Could you send me that as well? I've made 3 attempts to make sure Wyndham has my correct email address and I frequently check my Spam & junk folders, but I still don't seem to be getting these communications!


----------



## HitchHiker71

The email for the VIP/resale owners has already been posted earlier in this same thread - on page one - first post - it's what started this thread.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below.  The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:
> 
> 
> *If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?*
> Yes, whether with CWS or CWA and across both the developer and resale points buckets - same ARP contract combination rules as are in place today.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?*
> No, but resale will be prioritized over retail for PDF transactions.  Just like today - separate PDF transactions will result in separate fees.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?*
> Yes, normal borrowing should apply but if any amount of resale points are borrowed the reservation will be considered a resale reservation and VIP benefits will not apply.
> 
> 
> 
> *Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?*
> Yes they are.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?*
> No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits.  For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?*
> No - because the variety of use cases and the minority of owners impacted (only 4000 owners currently hold resale contracts consisting of roughly 2xk contracts).
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?*
> No, no additional changes for resale are in scope for this planned change other than what has already been announced to VIP owners.
> 
> 
> 
> *Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?*
> The statement was meant to address VIP privileges such as RARP, MVC booking windows, etc. No changes to resale contracts are planned.
> 
> 
> 
> *How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?*
> It won't.  For resale transactions - if your allotments of GCs/HKs/RTs have already been used - a zero balance will show post system change - no negative balances and/or additional fees will be charged retroactively.
> 
> 
> 
> *For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?*
> Yes.  Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.
> 
> 
> 
> *When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?*
> Yes you will choose which points bucket from which to borrow.
> 
> 
> 
> *If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?*
> At most the balances would be zero'd out - no negative balances will exist.  Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?*
> The best practice is to wait until go-live before contacting Owner Resolution as many of the answers won't really make sense until you see the system changes for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> *When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?*
> Sometime between Q3 and Q4 is the expected release date for the updated member directory.
> 
> 
> 
> *What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?*
> Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> *Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?*
> Yes.  When performing PDFs you should be able to choose from All Points, Developer Points, or Resale points buckets.  If you choose All points, resale points will transfer automatically before Developer points.  If you choose more points than your resale bucket has available, then the remainder of the points will be taken from your Developer points bucket.  Separate transactions will warrant separate fees - just as they do today.



Thanks!  Truly appreciate the extra effort you make.

@TUGBrian, not sure what the criteria is for lifetime membership, but if it’s value added….


----------



## ladawgfan

HitchHiker71 said:


> Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below. The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:
> 
> 
> *If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?*
> Yes, whether with CWS or CWA and across both the developer and resale points buckets - same ARP contract combination rules as are in place today.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?*
> No, but resale will be prioritized over retail for PDF transactions. Just like today - separate PDF transactions will result in separate fees.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?*
> Yes, normal borrowing should apply but if any amount of resale points are borrowed the reservation will be considered a resale reservation and VIP benefits will not apply.
> 
> 
> 
> *Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?*
> Yes they are.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?*
> No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits. For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?*
> No - because the variety of use cases and the minority of owners impacted (only 4000 owners currently hold resale contracts consisting of roughly 2xk contracts).
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?*
> No, no additional changes for resale are in scope for this planned change other than what has already been announced to VIP owners.
> 
> 
> 
> *Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?*
> The statement was meant to address VIP privileges such as RARP, MVC booking windows, etc. No changes to resale contracts are planned.
> 
> 
> 
> *How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?*
> It won't. For resale transactions - if your allotments of GCs/HKs/RTs have already been used - a zero balance will show post system change - no negative balances and/or additional fees will be charged retroactively.
> 
> 
> 
> *For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?*
> Yes. Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.
> 
> 
> 
> *When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?*
> Yes you will choose which points bucket from which to borrow.
> 
> 
> 
> *If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?*
> At most the balances would be zero'd out - no negative balances will exist. Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?*
> The best practice is to wait until go-live before contacting Owner Resolution as many of the answers won't really make sense until you see the system changes for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> *When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?*
> Sometime between Q3 and Q4 is the expected release date for the updated member directory.
> 
> 
> 
> *What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?*
> Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> *Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?*
> Yes. When performing PDFs you should be able to choose from All Points, Developer Points, or Resale points buckets. If you choose All points, resale points will transfer automatically before Developer points. If you choose more points than your resale bucket has available, then the remainder of the points will be taken from your Developer points bucket. Separate transactions will warrant separate fees - just as they do toda


THANK YOU! It sure would be nice if Wyndham would include Q & A's regarding important topics like this on the website so they can be referred to in the future. Similar to all the issues and questions regarding all the new website roll-out problems, it's ridiculous that we have to rely on you & others through TUG to find answers, sometimes having to search through multiple threads & hundreds of posts to do so. 

While I'm on the subject, their request for feedback loop appears to be a total waste of time. User feedback goes into a blackhole that is never responded, to and we never know whether the "message has been received" and is being addressed or ignored. Why can't they publish the questions & comments they receive along with whether or not the issue will be addressed in future releases, and if not why not? It seems that would eliminate a lot of duplicate or repeat comments from multiple users. (The placement of the feedback tab is also frustrating. Because of its location, I frequently get an unwanted  pop-up requesting comments when I'm only interested in scrolling through whatever I'm looking for at the time. Move it somewhere where the request for feedback only appears when I want it to!)


----------



## ladawgfan

HitchHiker71 said:


> The email for the VIP/resale owners has already been posted earlier in this same thread - on page one - first post - it's what started this thread.


Ok. Thanks. I thought I read in later posts that Wyndham was going to be sending a follow-up email to the first. (I had it in my mind that it was expected last Thursday?) I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something else they have sent recently..


----------



## HitchHiker71

ladawgfan said:


> THANK YOU! It sure would be nice if Wyndham would include Q & A's regarding important topics like this on the website so they can be referred to in the future. Similar to all the issues and questions regarding all the new website roll-out problems, it's ridiculous that we have to rely on you & others through TUG to find answers, sometimes having to search through multiple threads & hundreds of posts to do so.
> 
> While I'm on the subject, their request for feedback loop appears to be a total waste of time. User feedback goes into a blackhole that is never responded, to and we never know whether the "message has been received" and is being addressed or ignored. Why can't they publish the questions & comments they receive along with whether or not the issue will be addressed in future releases, and if not why not? It seems that would eliminate a lot of duplicate or repeat comments from multiple users. (The placement of the feedback tab is also frustrating. Because of its location, I frequently get an unwanted  pop-up requesting comments when I'm only interested in scrolling through whatever I'm looking for at the time. Move it somewhere where the request for feedback only appears when I want it to!)



@Richelle and I have both lobbied pretty hard for FAQs along this line in the past to anyone who will listen - and we did so again this time around.  We recognize as IT professionals that doing so means you have to then manage that content once published - which adds more work to someone's queue of course - but we feel having FAQs would be a real boon when announcing changes of this nature.  We recommended the same approach when the GC changes were first announced.  Let's see what we see moving forward. 

Regarding the feedback mechanism - that likely uses at least some AI bots to process the requests and segment them for review.  It's not that they ignore them - but the volume of requests inbound is such that no human could even attempt to manage and respond to them all.  But trust me when I say they do get good information from the feedback mechanism.  That said, a subset of the feedback that is presented on TUG - as I've said previously - are outlier requests from those that fall into a vast minority when compared to an average representative owner.  In those cases, it likely feels as though much of what is discussed on TUG doesn't get much attention.  For major release updates - like the VIP/resale update and the points buckets - Wyndham does send out notifications - the start of this thread is evidence of this fact - but most of the twice a month sprint updates are bug fixes and minor content changes that don't warrant the level of effort it would take to publish and explain.  We do the same thing where I work today - we don't publish release notes for the twice monthly sprint releases - just the major feature releases that happen every few months for example.  Release notes publishing is much more common for SaaS companies within the IT vertical - it's much less commonly done for companies in other non-IT verticals from what I've observed.

Case in point - one thing we learned in our travels during this latest review process - we were able to determine that there are actually _only _4000 owner accounts out of 500k Wyndham CWP accounts total that hold resale contracts and the resale contracts only number in the low 2xk range at present. That means less than 1% of Wyndham owners own resale, and VIP is only a subset of that number. This change was very targeted in other words - and while many TUG owners seem to care a great deal about this change - the vast majority of Wyndham owners could care less - and actually see this all as a very positive development as some here on TUG have argued - and they are in point of fact correct - based upon the numbers at least.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Has any date or date range been published for when exactly this new system will be released?  I haven't seen a concrete date yet.


----------



## HitchHiker71

ladawgfan said:


> Ok. Thanks. I thought I read in later posts that Wyndham was going to be sending a follow-up email to the first. (I had it in my mind that it was expected last Thursday?) I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something else they have sent recently..



They did - but that was referring to the broader email that went out to a broader audience - which was also posted somewhere in this thread - I just don't wanna make the effort to go find it myself.


----------



## chapjim

Many thanks to HitchHiker71 and Richelle for their uncompensated hard work on our behalf!


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> Has any date or date range been published for when exactly this new system will be released?  I haven't seen a concrete date yet.



Nothing other than mid-August at this time.  I'll make the ask as to whether they will send another email communication when we get closer to the actual release date - or otherwise.  If any issue occurs that would delay the feature release - it could easily slide to late August for example.  The sprint release date won't change - but what is actually released into production for that specific sprint would change.  If there's any delay during final QA - the entire feature release could be delayed until the next regularly scheduled sprint.  It all depends on how they are using agile.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I hope this is going to be true.  I can get out gracefully, if this is the case. 


> *Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?*
> No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits. For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.


----------



## keno999

Eric B said:


> Thanks!  Truly appreciate the extra effort you make.
> 
> @TUGBrian, not sure what the criteria is for lifetime membership, but if it’s value added….


Agree with that!   Heck, I'd pay for an extra year of HitchHiker71's TUG dues myself.


----------



## snickers104

"actually only 4000 owner accounts out of"


Maybe 4000 VIP owners with resale points....but I would think there are many more resale owners than that.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## ausman

HitchHiker71 said:


> Case in point - one thing we learned in our travels during this latest review process - we were able to determine that there are actually _only _4000 owner accounts out of 500k Wyndham CWP accounts total that hold resale contracts and the resale contracts only number in the low 2xk range at present. That means less than 1% of Wyndham owners own resale, and VIP is only a subset of that number. This change was very targeted in other words - and while many TUG owners seem to care a great deal about this change - the vast majority of Wyndham owners could care less - and actually see this all as a very positive development as some here on TUG have argued - and they are in point of fact correct - based upon the numbers at least.



I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means. 

Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.


----------



## SueDonJ

HitchHiker71 said:


> Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below.  The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:
> 
> 
> *If you need to combine both VIP eligible and non eligible points for a large reservation and thus book using non-VIP eligible and borrow some of your VIP-eligible points, will the points used from both buckets combine for ARP purposes (e.g. if you own both retail and resale CWA contracts)?*
> Yes, whether with CWS or CWA and across both the developer and resale points buckets - same ARP contract combination rules as are in place today.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham require a separate Points Deposit Fee for VIP and non-VIP points in different buckets?*
> No, but resale will be prioritized over retail for PDF transactions.  Just like today - separate PDF transactions will result in separate fees.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year even when you have resale points available in same use year?*
> Yes, normal borrowing should apply but if any amount of resale points are borrowed the reservation will be considered a resale reservation and VIP benefits will not apply.
> 
> 
> 
> *Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?*
> Yes they are.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will more detailed information be provided on the rulesets used for the current use year audits?*
> No fees will be charged due to retroactive changes from any audits.  For future use years - if you have already used what would normally have been allotted - you will not be charged fees for using beyond those allotments - however you will have zero balances for those allotments for the current and/or future use years in scope.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham publish recommended best practices for how to utilize the different points buckets for the impacted VIP owners?*
> No - because the variety of use cases and the minority of owners impacted (only 4000 owners currently hold resale contracts consisting of roughly 2xk contracts).
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham be making any changes to how resale contracts function for reservations? For example, will resale contracts still support ARP reservations for the home resort(s)?*
> No, no additional changes for resale are in scope for this planned change other than what has already been announced to VIP owners.
> 
> 
> 
> *Statement: “Non-VIP Eligible Points will follow the standard booking timeline and VIP Eligible Points will have an extended booking timeline for reservations and transactions, in accordance with existing VIP guidelines.” What extended timeline do VIP eligible points have (other than RARP or Margaritaville, which are mentioned elsewhere)?*
> The statement was meant to address VIP privileges such as RARP, MVC booking windows, etc. No changes to resale contracts are planned.
> 
> 
> 
> *How will this change impact reservations made already in future use years?*
> It won't.  For resale transactions - if your allotments of GCs/HKs/RTs have already been used - a zero balance will show post system change - no negative balances and/or additional fees will be charged retroactively.
> 
> 
> 
> *For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?*
> Yes.  Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.
> 
> 
> 
> *When borrowing points from future use years for reservations, will you be able to choose from developer/resale points buckets? Or will the system automatically make that determination somehow?*
> Yes you will choose which points bucket from which to borrow.
> 
> 
> 
> *If an owner does not agree with any of the audit changes, will Wyndham work with them or are the allocation decisions final?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will Wyndham offer free transactions for any reservations that need to be canceled/rebooked/changed based on the new system?*
> Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *Will there be any additional HK credits and/or RTs allotted to owners to ensure account wholeness through the rest of the current use year?*
> At most the balances would be zero'd out - no negative balances will exist.  Please contact Owner Resolution with any questions or concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> *When does Wyndham recommend owners reach out for help? Before or after the go-live date?*
> The best practice is to wait until go-live before contacting Owner Resolution as many of the answers won't really make sense until you see the system changes for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> *When will the member directory be updated to reflect these changes?*
> Sometime between Q3 and Q4 is the expected release date for the updated member directory.
> 
> 
> 
> *What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?*
> Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> *Do the points buckets remain segregated when banking into future use years?*
> Yes.  When performing PDFs you should be able to choose from All Points, Developer Points, or Resale points buckets.  If you choose All points, resale points will transfer automatically before Developer points.  If you choose more points than your resale bucket has available, then the remainder of the points will be taken from your Developer points bucket.  Separate transactions will warrant separate fees - just as they do today.



As someone who tries to use Marriott contacts sparingly but when necessary in order to flesh out corporate policy that vexes even knowledgeable TUGgers, I know that success is never guaranteed, the answers usually aren't as comprehensive as we would like, and they don't easily give permission for public consumption. Whatever your connection might be, obviously it's VERY appreciated by all those affected. I don't own Wyndham, don't understand half of this info, but still I say THANK YOU for your contributions. VERY NICE!


----------



## troy12n

basham said:


> I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means.
> 
> Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.




My translation of that is "20 something thousand"... between 20k-30k. He's using tech or math lingo where x is a variable

So 4000 something owners own 20 something thousand resale contracts, out of 500,000 something owners. 

In other words, a drop in the bucket, a very minority ownership percentage, that can apparently make quite a buttload of reservations and really tip the apple cart


----------



## HitchHiker71

basham said:


> I'd like to understand this correctly, but am uncertain as to what 2xk means.
> 
> Is it 20,000? which would mean there are only 4,000 resale owners who hold 20,000 contracts or something else.



Correct. Roughly 4000 owners that collectively hold a total of roughly 2x,000 resale contracts.  What I cannot ascertain is if that number represents resale only owners, as opposed to hybrid owners for example.  Many on the FB groups have responded to this number surmising it represents only the number of VIP resale owners impacted.  Your guess is as good as mine.  Honestly it’s not easy to get detailed answers on these data points, so I take what I can get when I can get it.  I've made the ask for clarification - but no promises of course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kaljor

Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,


----------



## raygo123

kaljor said:


> Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,


That's 3,000,000,000 AT THE LEAST! Now with VIP benefits, 6 billion points!. 
Then if you book again, 9 billion.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


----------



## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> That's 3,000,000,000 AT THE LEAST! Now with VIP benefits, 6 billion points!.
> Then if you book again, 9 billion.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


Not all of those 4,000 resale owners have been using their resale points with VIP benefits. Some (probably plenty) of them are nobodies like me. Others are retail owners who may have added resale before ever reaching VIP. Others may, yes, be VIPs who added a small resale contract or few to supplement their retail ownership. Only a very small percentage of resale owners would be VIPs who own at least an equivalent number of resale points. They may have a disproportionate impact, but they exist in very small numbers.


----------



## bnoble

kaljor said:


> Wow. I am shocked that only 4000 owners hold resale points,


This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is _sold rather than bought_. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's _exactly_ what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it. 

If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.

Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.

I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just _how_ "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.


----------



## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is _sold rather than bought_. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's _exactly_ what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.
> 
> If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.
> 
> Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.
> 
> I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just _how_ "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.



Wyndham just published their Q2 2021 earnings results, here's an excerpt that reinforces what you're saying here:



> *Business Segment Results*
> 
> The results of operations during the second quarter of 2021 and 2020 include impacts related to the
> COVID-19 global pandemic, which have been significantly negative to the travel industry, the Company, its
> customers and employees. Refer to Table 8 for a breakout of COVID-19 related impacts.
> 
> 
> Vacation Ownership $ in millionsQ2 2021Q2 2020% changeRevenue$599$238152%Adjusted EBITDA$133($12)1208%
> 
> 
> Vacation Ownership revenue increased 152% to $599 million in the second quarter of 2021 compared to
> the same period in the prior year. Gross vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales were $383 million
> compared to $18 million in the prior year and tours were 117,000 during the quarter compared to 6,000 in
> the same period last year. Volume Per Guest (VPG) was $3,151 due to strong close rates and higher
> quality tours.



So last quarter, Wyndham sold $383mm in gross VOIs.  If we assume an average sale of $25,000, that's 15,320 net new ownerships.  Compare that to how often we see rescission posts here on TUG.  It's a drop in the bucket in other words.  That certainly doesn't mean we don't continue to preach the resale message here on TUG - but it reinforces your point - that resale is still a relative unknown to the vast majority of timeshare purchasers.  It also reinforces the fact that the representative user base here on TUG is very much the exception, not the rule.


----------



## dioxide45

HitchHiker71 said:


> *Are Wyndham Owner Care reps being trained in advance on how to answer inquiries related to these somewhat complex changes?*
> 
> Yes they are.


This may amount to a mass email being sent out to Owner Care reps. Half of which won't even read it.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dioxide45 said:


> This may amount to a mass email being sent out to Owner Care reps. Half of which won't even read it.



One of the two individuals Richelle and I worked with on our Zoom meeting on Monday is a manager in Owner Resolution (Owner Care) - the other was in Wyndham education and will be running the upcoming webinar education sessions that have been published.  The Owner Resolution manager was instrumental in providing us the Q&A guidance I shared for public consumption.  Granted, he's only one manager - but he was very knowledgeable about the upcoming changes and had ready access to the test systems with the new functionality.  I'm sure not everyone in OR will be as knowledgeable as he was, but the fact that he has the knowledge - shows that people in that division have been included and are quite knowledgeable about the upcoming changes.


----------



## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> Compare that to how often we see rescission posts here on TUG. It's a drop in the bucket in other words.


I've thought about this a lot too, and it is tied into the same line of thinking.

Put yourself for a moment in the position of that vacationer who liked what they heard about bottling that magical vacation feeling "at today's prices," or what have you. If you've been to a presentation (or even heard from someone else who has) you know that the math behind the sales pitch is at best dubious. For example, they typically use straight-line depreciation to account for the annual cost of the purchase price. However, anyone who paid attention in high school economics knows about the time-value of money; if they remember that lesson, they should immediately balk.

My brother is a good example. He and his partner were consultants for many years, and concentrated their hotel spend at Hilton. Along the way, HGVC talked them into one of their marketing trips, and the agent did exactly this. Now, my brother is a smart guy with an MBA from a school very comfortably in the top 20. He knows his way around a financial disclosure, and he called the agent on this maneuver. Later in the presentation, the agent did it again. At that point, my brother stood up, and said: "It's clear that either you're stupid, or you think I am. Either way, this discussion is over." He walked out.

But, lots of people still buy. Is that because they never learned high school economics? Probably not, because they also have mortgages, loans, investments in stock market indexes, etc. all of which are critically dependent on the time value of money. Instead, I think it is because _in this case, they do not want to think about it_. They are making an aspirational purchase to improve their family's lives and make vacation a priority. The (bogus!) financial argument is just a fig leaf that let's them tell themselves that they are _saving money_, and not _spending money_.

When that person gets home, _they do not go looking for reasons why the financial argument was wrong_ because again *they don't want it to be*. So, they never find TUG until years later, if at all. Heck, we even see people who come here to ask if they should rescind, being told unequivocally "Yes!" and then arguing about it; that in their case, really it was a good idea, wasn't it?


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> *For hybrid VIP owners that hold both retail and resale contracts. Will we receive separate dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for our resale contract points? For example, as a VIPG owner, I receive 10 complimentary GCs today. Will I receive the traditional two GCs and associated amount of HKs and RTs for my resale bucket points, in addition to the complimentary VIPG GCs I already am entitled to? Will the HKs and RTs round up or down if the points don't exactly match the 77k and 70k thresholds?*
> 
> Yes. Resale contracts will hold their own dedicated GCs, HKs, and RTs for usage, following the standard Club allocations.



The answer they provided to this question still leaves me wondering what the implementation will be.  Could you ask a follow up question on what the outcome will be for the example that was provided in the original question - for a VIPG with resale contracts would it be 10 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs or will it be 8 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs?  I could make a case for either one, while the first (10 + 2) seems more appropriate because it gives the proper number of VIP GCs to use with the VIP-eligible points there could be hesitancy in giving an extra 2 GCs.

Also, being VIPG prior to the last change I have unlimited HKs and RTs presently and will continue to have them after the update.  I only have a small number of resale points that I believe will result in only getting 1 HK and 1 RT every other year.  Given the ruleset they provided, if I use my HK & RT on one stay in the year, then desire to book another stay in that year by combining my VIP-eligible and non-VIP-eligible points, it would appear that I would need to purchase another HK & RT since I can't use the unlimited HKs & RTs for the transaction.  For a VIPG after the last change to the program, their account would have XXX/70K HKs plus 4 VIPG HKs (where XXX is the number of points being considered).  For the purposes of the ruleset, are the HKs per 70K points for the VIP-eligible points considered VIP HKs that cannot be used when staying using mixed points or should they be considered non-VIP HKs since they do not exist as a result of VIP status but instead exist as a result of the ownership of the underlying points?  Giving a number of points to illustrate this, assume a VIPG owner has 800,000 VIP-eligible points purchased after the last change and therefore has 11 HKs because of the points and 4 HKs because of being VIPG.  If that owner has another 100,000 non-VIP-eligible points with the accompanying 1 HK and uses that HK for a stay using 70,000 non-VIP-eligible points, then desires to stay again using the remaining 30,000 non-VIP-eligible points plus 70,000 VIP-eligible points, could the owner use the HK that would have come with the VIP-eligible points regardless of their status or is that one considered a VIP HK that cannot be used?  A similar question applies to the reservation transactions that would have come with the point ownership regardless of VIPG status with unlimited RTs - for a reservation made after using the RTs native to the non-VIP-eligible points can the owner use the RTs that would have been assigned to the VIP-eligible points if they were non-VIP-eligible points based on the fact that they are already being paid for out of the program fees on those points?


----------



## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> I've thought about this a lot too, and it is tied into the same line of thinking.
> 
> Put yourself for a moment in the position of that vacationer who liked what they heard about bottling that magical vacation feeling "at today's prices," or what have you. If you've been to a presentation (or even heard from someone else who has) you know that the math behind the sales pitch is at best dubious. For example, they typically use straight-line depreciation to account for the annual cost of the purchase price. However, anyone who paid attention in high school economics knows about the time-value of money; if they remember that lesson, they should immediately balk.
> 
> My brother is a good example. He and his partner were consultants for many years, and concentrated their hotel spend at Hilton. Along the way, HGVC talked them into one of their marketing trips, and the agent did exactly this. Now, my brother is a smart guy with an MBA from a school very comfortably in the top 20. He knows his way around a financial disclosure, and he called the agent on this maneuver. Later in the presentation, the agent did it again. At that point, my brother stood up, and said: "It's clear that either you're stupid, or you think I am. Either way, this discussion is over." He walked out.
> 
> But, lots of people still buy. Is that because they never learned high school economics? Probably not, because they also have mortgages, loans, investments in stock market indexes, etc. all of which are critically dependent on the time value of money. Instead, I think it is because _in this case, they do not want to think about it_. They are making an aspirational purchase to improve their family's lives and make vacation a priority. The (bogus!) financial argument is just a fig leaf that let's them tell themselves that they are _saving money_, and not _spending money_.
> 
> When that person gets home, _they do not go looking for reasons why the financial argument was wrong_ because again *they don't want it to be*. So, they never find TUG until years later, if at all. Heck, we even see people who come here to ask if they should rescind, being told unequivocally "Yes!" and then arguing about it; that in their case, really it was a good idea, wasn't it?



The premise of the points you are outlining are in the following article under item #1:









						Is timesharing right for me?
					

The purpose of this article is to establish what we consider to be a few hard and fast rules to live by when attempting to determine conceptually if timeshare ownership is a good match to meet your vacation style. If you’ve done any searching on the internet about timeshare ownership, you...



					wyndhamexperts.org
				




The wording and examples used are a bit different, references to encouraging impulse buys while on vacation when your collective guard is down and so forth.  We initially bought retail down in Myrtle Beach but I found TUG right after and ended up rescinding and then buying back in via PIC Plus a month or so later, and then acquiring resale after my initial PIC retail purchase.  It's not what our standard recommended approach is here on TUG - resale only - or at least at first - with any retail purchase coming much later down the line if at all.  The following article does a good job of portraying the timeshare acquisition pattern most folks should follow:









						I did the wrong thing. What do I do now?
					

So, you’ve read our ‘Did I Do the Right Thing?’ blog article, and you’re pretty sure you fall into the category of ‘I did the wrong thing.’ What do you do now? Below we outline a step by step process on what to do right now, along with the journey you should take to educate […]



					wyndhamexperts.org


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> The answer they provided to this question still leaves me wondering what the implementation will be.  Could you ask a follow up question on what the outcome will be for the example that was provided in the original question - for a VIPG with resale contracts would it be 10 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs or will it be 8 VIP GCs and 2 non-VIP GCs?  I could make a case for either one, while the first (10 + 2) seems more appropriate because it gives the proper number of VIP GCs to use with the VIP-eligible points there could be hesitancy in giving an extra 2 GCs.



I specifically had this conversation with the two Wyndham folks - according to my understanding the VIP complimentary GCs will stand apart from the resale GCs allocated.  Essentially each points bucket will have it's own set of allocations for GC/HK/RT.  If you are VIP - your developer bucket will have whatever your VIP benefits entitle you to.  For me that would be 10 GCs and unlimited HK/RT since I'm grandfathered VIPG.  My resale points bucket will have 2 GCs and the appropriate amount of HK/RT dependent upon the point value of the contract (rounded down). 



> Also, being VIPG prior to the last change I have unlimited HKs and RTs presently and will continue to have them after the update.  I only have a small number of resale points that I believe will result in only getting 1 HK and 1 RT every other year.  Given the ruleset they provided, if I use my HK & RT on one stay in the year, then desire to book another stay in that year by combining my VIP-eligible and non-VIP-eligible points, it would appear that I would need to purchase another HK & RT since I can't use the unlimited HKs & RTs for the transaction.  For a VIPG after the last change to the program, their account would have XXX/70K HKs plus 4 VIPG HKs (where XXX is the number of points being considered).  For the purposes of the ruleset, are the HKs per 70K points for the VIP-eligible points considered VIP HKs that cannot be used when staying using mixed points or should they be considered non-VIP HKs since they do not exist as a result of VIP status but instead exist as a result of the ownership of the underlying points?  Giving a number of points to illustrate this, assume a VIPG owner has 800,000 VIP-eligible points purchased after the last change and therefore has 11 HKs because of the points and 4 HKs because of being VIPG.  If that owner has another 100,000 non-VIP-eligible points with the accompanying 1 HK and uses that HK for a stay using 70,000 non-VIP-eligible points, then desires to stay again using the remaining 30,000 non-VIP-eligible points plus 70,000 VIP-eligible points, could the owner use the HK that would have come with the VIP-eligible points regardless of their status or is that one considered a VIP HK that cannot be used?  A similar question applies to the reservation transactions that would have come with the point ownership regardless of VIPG status with unlimited RTs - for a reservation made after using the RTs native to the non-VIP-eligible points can the owner use the RTs that would have been assigned to the VIP-eligible points if they were non-VIP-eligible points based on the fact that they are already being paid for out of the program fees on those points?



My understanding is if _any _resale bucket points are used - VIP benefits will _not _apply - _only _resale bucket benefits will apply.  Think in terms of benefits tied to each bucket - so if/when the resale bucket is used - in any capacity whatsoever - then _only the allotments _from the resale benefits will apply - so whatever GC/HK/RT allotments exist in your resale bucket would be used to process the reservation transaction.  If you want your Developer bucket allotments to be used - the points used must _only _be from the Developer points bucket.


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## troy12n

One thing, i've never had to deal with RT/HK because i'm VIP so I don't really know how it works, but my general understanding is you get 1 RT and HK credit per ~70k points you own. Does Wyndham even sell contracts with less than that? 

70K doesn't get you much these days, I think you would be hard pressed to find a location where you can get a full week somewhere for that, if you are looking to just book a weekend somewhere even. I know I just blew 78k this past weekend at Clearwater for 3 nights in a 1BR, and that was after my VIPG discount inside 60 days. Will this even be an issue?


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## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> One thing, i've never had to deal with RT/HK because i'm VIP so I don't really know how it works, but my general understanding is you get 1 RT and HK credit per ~70k points you own. Does Wyndham even sell contracts with less than that?
> 
> 70K doesn't get you much these days, I think you would be hard pressed to find a location where you can get a full week somewhere for that, if you are looking to just book a weekend somewhere even. I know I just blew 78k this past weekend at Clearwater for 3 nights in a 1BR, and that was after my VIPG discount inside 60 days. Will this even be an issue?



I'm in the same boat, I've not had to worry about HK/RT.  I've got a 689k NH resale contract.  I believe the math is:

HK:  points/77k = HK credits (rounded down)
RT:  points/70k = RT credits (rounded down)

So for my contract I'd receive:

GCs:  2
HKs:  8
RTs:  8


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> My understanding is if _any _resale bucket points are used - VIP benefits will _not _apply - _only _resale bucket benefits will apply. Think in terms of benefits tied to each bucket - so if/when the resale bucket is used - in any capacity whatsoever - then _only the allotments _from the resale benefits will apply - so whatever GC/HK/RT allotments exist in your resale bucket would be used to process the reservation transaction. If you want your Developer bucket allotments to be used - the points used must _only _be from the Developer points bucket.



It wouldn't surprise me entirely if that's how it gets implemented.  It does seem as though it will cause some problems, though, and isn't entirely fair (not that fairness matters all that much).  The problem I see is that the VIP program provides benefits that are an increment above what you are already paying for - VIPG gets you 4 extra HKs and 8 extra GCs plus unlimited RTs.  If you own X number of points of any kind, you are paying for X/70K HKs, X/77K RTs, and 2 GCs - those are paid for out of the ordinary program fees and aren't really attributable to VIP benefits.  It only makes a difference at the margin - there is unlikely to be a case where a hybrid VIP owner makes more than one mixed stay in a year, though that could happen in unusual circumstances.  I've got a couple of small resale biennial contracts and a small annual one, which will result in a single HK and RT each year (assuming it's round down - which I believe is the case for the calculation).  I'm paying program fees on those plus program fees on my VIPG points, which would in the ordinary course of business get me a certain number of HKs and RTs (GCs won't be limiting as I don't use near my allocation yearly as it is and don't plan on going into the rental business, though I've rented some as a favor to folks).  At the margin, I expect that every other year I could be put in the position of needing more RTs and HKs for non-VIP stays; the silly thing about how they account for RTs is they come out of the allocation for the year in which the reservation is made, not when the stay is, so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in.  It's clearly something I can plan around or pay the extra fees for, but seems as though there should be some recognition that what my program fees pay for (i.e., the X/70K HKs and X/77K RTs) aren't VIP benefits, but instead are appurtenant to those points regardless of where they are used, while the extra 4 HKs for being VIPG are clearly VIP benefits as are the additional 8 GCs.  That's how the logic works if you follow the money and attribute the status of those things as being VIP benefits to those things the VIP program pays for and at the same time attribute non-VIP status to those things that are paid for annually by the owner through the program fees.  If I were writing the rule sets, I would allow for allocation of additional HKs and RTs to the non-VIP usage to the extent that VIP-eligible points are used in mixed reservations; set up that way it wouldn't have the effect of "stripping" the HKs and RTs from those points used in mixed reservations despite the owner paying for them.  Might be worth seeking clarification in that vein in the event they haven't thought of that before the program gets implemented.


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## cbyrne1174

paxsarah said:


> Not all of those 4,000 resale owners have been using their resale points with VIP benefits. Some (probably plenty) of them are nobodies like me. Others are retail owners who may have added resale before ever reaching VIP. Others may, yes, be VIPs who added a small resale contract or few to supplement their retail ownership. Only a very small percentage of resale owners would be VIPs who own at least an equivalent number of resale points. They may have a disproportionate impact, but they exist in very small numbers.



Agreed. Most resale owners made a small developer purchase and added on resale. Very few are 100% resale or VIP/resale. Most of the people I've randomly talked to at the resorts that know about resale learned it from buying 105,000-200,000 points into Wyndham first, then added resale after.


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'm in the same boat, I've not had to worry about HK/RT.  I've got a 689k NH resale contract.  I believe the math is:
> 
> HK:  points/77k = HK credits (rounded down)
> RT:  points/70k = RT credits (rounded down)
> 
> So for my contract I'd receive:
> 
> GCs:  2
> HKs:  8
> RTs:  8



But consider someone with a 105K annual contract and a 210K EOYE contract.  They would get:

Even year
GCs:             2
HKs:             4
RTs:              4

Odd year
GCs:             2
HKs:             1
RTs:              1

If they use their ARP for an even year stay by making a reservation in the odd year, they use up their allocated non-VIP RTs, but haven't made a reservation for their odd year points.  If they were to try to book a mixed stay using the 105K non-VIP plus 255K from VIP, which isn't unreasonable, despite the fact that they've paid for 3 more RTs in the program fee for those 255K VIP points, because it's a mixed stay they wouldn't be able to use them for the transaction unless the RTs that are paid for out of the program fee are not considered VIP RTs.


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## Eric B

Also, I believe it's 1 HK per 70K and 1 RT per 77K - I chose numbers so that it didn't matter.


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## Manzana

I wonder how this will affect privileges to the account when some members are on resale contracts and some are on retail accounts.  Will the account as a whole still have privileges or will those on resale only have resale privileges


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## troy12n

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons they may be disallowing VIP benefits at all on "mixed" reservations is to prevent another loophole. 

We don't know exactly how they will implement the new reservation system, but playing devils advocate. 

One could *potentially* make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation. 

In a perfect world, one would (or should) be able to use mixed retail/resale points to *complete* a reservation. When one bucket is too low. But maybe that would be too difficult to implement... 

But you see where i'm going with this. 

There are definitely ways to work around these problems, such as, if, when making a reservation, 51% (or some other, arbitrary number) of the reservation is made with retail points, VIP benefits will attach. But this may be too difficult / costly / cumbersome to implement...

If there's one thing we can all agree on, if there's a loophole to exploit, it will be exploited to the *extreme* degree... and Wyndham may be taking this angle to just stay out of the business of arbitrating these details... 

I don't own any resale points, but even I am surprised they are not having something in place to accommodate scenarios like end of year reservations where you need to borrow a point or two. Maybe it may be a scenario where owner care can step in, in niche circumstances to override this?


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## cbyrne1174

bnoble said:


> This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is _sold rather than bought_. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's _exactly_ what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.
> 
> If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.
> 
> Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.
> 
> I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just _how_ "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.



IMO resale ownership is the cheapest possible way you can afford the lifestyle. Renting is usually more expensive, especially now that they closed the VIP/resale loophole. 100% resale ownership is the lowest cost and most logical choice, so it's frugal people that do their research who are attracted to resale ownership. I spent about 3 months researching every single major timeshare system (Marriott, Hilton, DVC, Bluegreen, Wastegate, Diamond, Vistana, Wyndham) before I picked Wyndham resale, then spent my sweet time waiting for low MF deeds to pop up that weren't expensive. I mostly found good all my good deals in the winter time.  I only picked up what I could use for the next 40+ years.

However, the general population are too stupid to make smart and responsible decisions. [Covid comment redacted]

I think that's why Wyndham has been reducing VIP benefits because they don't want retail purchases to be an educated decision. They want impulse buyers only. That's the type of customer they make the most profit from. There are a decent amount of people who make decent money because they are good at 1 thing, but lack critical thinking skills. All of the active VIPs on this forum bought when it made sense to and are getting their money's worth, even with the new restrictions. I know @Jan M. bought when it was Fairfield, uses almost all of her points 60 days out, and is passing on her PR deed at a low MF resort to her only child and @HitchHiker71 PIC'd to Gold and had a plan to break even in 10 years. Most who bought had a plan to get their money's worth when they bought. However, those deals don't exist anymore because Wyndham canned unlimited HK, making a new VIP purchase useless to the educated buyer, which isn't their target customer because they are the minority of people.


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## Eric B

troy12n said:


> It just occurred to me that one of the reasons they may be disallowing VIP benefits at all on "mixed" reservations is to prevent another loophole.
> 
> We don't know exactly how they will implement the new reservation system, but playing devils advocate.
> 
> One could *potentially* make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation.
> 
> In a perfect world, one would (or should) be able to use mixed retail/resale points to *complete* a reservation. When one bucket is too low. But maybe that would be too difficult to implement...
> 
> But you see where i'm going with this.
> 
> There are definitely ways to work around these problems, such as, if, when making a reservation, 51% (or some other, arbitrary number) of the reservation is made with retail points, VIP benefits will attach. But this may be too difficult / costly / cumbersome to implement...
> 
> If there's one thing we can all agree on, if there's a loophole to exploit, it will be exploited to the *extreme* degree... and Wyndham may be taking this angle to just stay out of the business of arbitrating these details...
> 
> I don't own any resale points, but even I am surprised they are not having something in place to accommodate scenarios like end of year reservations where you need to borrow a point or two. Maybe it may be a scenario where owner care can step in, in niche circumstances to override this?



To an extent, I agree with you.  Clearly setting up a system that has loopholes to exploit will result in them being exploited, but I don't view the potential to use the RTs and HKs that someone is paying for as being akin to using what I would view as truly being VIP benefits - the discounts, upgrades, RARP, Margaritaville access, and extra HKs and unlimited RTs that are being paid for out of the VIP program.  No doubt it's something that Owner Care could make adjustments for, should they be so inclined, but it would strike me as odd to set up a system where letting someone use what they have already paid for (the RTs/HKs) has to be an exception rather than the rule.  If you look at it from the perspective of "I've paid for 10 HKs and 9 RTs in the program fees for my 700,000 VIP-eligible points, but I can't use any of them for this stay because I've also used 5,000 non-VIP-eligible points to book that stay, so I have to pay for an extra HK and RT" it seems like a bad idea.  It may be that they aren't setting it up that way and will allow use of the underlying paid-for HKs and RTs, but it's not terribly clear that it will be the case and seems as though it might not work that way based on the posts from @HitchHiker71.  It could be that they aren't looking at it all that closely and this is an unintended consequence because hybrid-VIP owners are very much in the minority, but I'm willing to bet that they won't fix it if we don't ask.


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## Eric B

troy12n said:


> One could *potentially* make a reservation using 10k retail points and 200k resale points to attempt to "piggyback" their VIP benefits onto the reservation.



Specifically to this point - between the 10K retail points and the 200K resale points, the owner has paid for 3 HKs and between 2 and 3 RTs.  Having the 10K retail points credited for their 1/7th HK and 10/77th RT wouldn't be piggybacking VIP benefits - piggybacking VIP benefits would be allowing unlimited HKs and RTs because there's some retail in there.  That's not going to happen.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> It wouldn't surprise me entirely if that's how it gets implemented.



That _is _how it's being implemented. I verified this on Monday.



> It does seem as though it will cause some problems, though, and isn't entirely fair (not that fairness matters all that much).  The problem I see is that the VIP program provides benefits that are an increment above what you are already paying for - VIPG gets you 4 extra HKs and 8 extra GCs plus unlimited RTs.  If you own X number of points of any kind, you are paying for X/70K HKs, X/77K RTs, and 2 GCs - those are paid for out of the ordinary program fees and aren't really attributable to VIP benefits.  It only makes a difference at the margin - there is unlikely to be a case where a hybrid VIP owner makes more than one mixed stay in a year, though that could happen in unusual circumstances.  I've got a couple of small resale biennial contracts and a small annual one, which will result in a single HK and RT each year (assuming it's round down - which I believe is the case for the calculation).  I'm paying program fees on those plus program fees on my VIPG points, which would in the ordinary course of business get me a certain number of HKs and RTs (GCs won't be limiting as I don't use near my allocation yearly as it is and don't plan on going into the rental business, though I've rented some as a favor to folks).  At the margin, I expect that every other year I could be put in the position of needing more RTs and HKs for non-VIP stays; the silly thing about how they account for RTs is they come out of the allocation for the year in which the reservation is made, not when the stay is, so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in.  It's clearly something I can plan around or pay the extra fees for, but seems as though there should be some recognition that what my program fees pay for (i.e., the X/70K HKs and X/77K RTs) aren't VIP benefits, but instead are appurtenant to those points regardless of where they are used, while the extra 4 HKs for being VIPG are clearly VIP benefits as are the additional 8 GCs.  That's how the logic works if you follow the money and attribute the status of those things as being VIP benefits to those things the VIP program pays for and at the same time attribute non-VIP status to those things that are paid for annually by the owner through the program fees.  If I were writing the rule sets, I would allow for allocation of additional HKs and RTs to the non-VIP usage to the extent that VIP-eligible points are used in mixed reservations; set up that way it wouldn't have the effect of "stripping" the HKs and RTs from those points used in mixed reservations despite the owner paying for them.  Might be worth seeking clarification in that vein in the event they haven't thought of that before the program gets implemented.



Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed explanation.  Unfortunately the use case you're outlining here is likely an outlier case - the above might serve as a good example of what I mean with regard to TUG representing a very small minority of power owners - and Wyndham isn't making these changes based upon the less than 1% that this change impacts.  The system coding for the announced changes is complete - I saw a subset of the changes in the devtest system with my own eyes on Monday.  I would recommend to wait until after the changes have been released - per the recommendations already shared - and then post actual experiences here after the fact - while also sharing feedback via the website feedback mechanism and/or contacting Owner Resolution to share feedback.  Nothing we bring up now will in any way impact the rollout coming in mid-August timeframe.  It's already set in stone given we're only a couple weeks away now.  

If we want to attempt to provide any feedback on your particular use case - we need to boil it down to something simpler and easier to absorb and understand.  If you can boil this down to something that can be captured in 1-2 sentences in a a question format - then we can re-evaluate submission.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> But consider someone with a 105K annual contract and a 210K EOYE contract.  They would get:
> 
> Even year
> GCs:             2
> HKs:             4
> RTs:              4
> 
> Odd year
> GCs:             2
> HKs:             1
> RTs:              1
> 
> If they use their ARP for an even year stay by making a reservation in the odd year, they use up their allocated non-VIP RTs, but haven't made a reservation for their odd year points.  If they were to try to book a mixed stay using the 105K non-VIP plus 255K from VIP, which isn't unreasonable, despite the fact that they've paid for 3 more RTs in the program fee for those 255K VIP points, because it's a mixed stay they wouldn't be able to use them for the transaction unless the RTs that are paid for out of the program fee are not considered VIP RTs.



Think more in terms of developer vs resale benefits - not VIP vs resale.  Developer bucket points benefits will _not _apply to any transaction that contains _any _resale bucket points.  This will apply equally whether the owner is a non-VIP hybrid owner or a VIP hybrid owner. 

The program fee doesn't cover the cost of the entire VIP program - it only covers a subset of the basic benefits - the rest is covered by the Sales & Marketing division.  I've never seen a detailed breakdown of how the VIP program costs are divided up, but I have heard from multiple folks over time that the way the costs break down is that the program fees cover the costs of benefits that are inclusive to non-VIP ownerships.  So for example, the program fees cover the standard contract benefits that any non-VIP retail owner is entitled to - the standard number of GCs/HKs/RTs.  My current understanding is that the Sales & Marketing division then pays for any VIP program costs beyond that - so if the VIP owner uses GCs/HKs/RTs beyond what a non-VIP retail owner is entitled to via the standard program fees - then the Sales & Marketing division pays for the difference.  With this in mind, why would the Sales & Marketing team continue to pay for any aspect of VIP benefits applied toward resale points? Especially given the announced changes and the separation of developer and resale points buckets.  That's essentially the ask if I'm understanding it correctly.


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## HitchHiker71

Manzana said:


> I wonder how this will affect privileges to the account when some members are on resale contracts and some are on retail accounts.  Will the account as a whole still have privileges or will those on resale only have resale privileges



That's a good question - I'll add this to our Q&A list.


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## paxsarah

Eric B said:


> so if you have an EOY contract, the RTs can be limiting or you have to fork over an extra $19 because of the potential for making reservations in the off year for stays in the year you have the points in.



Just to correct a misconception, biennial owners receive the same number of RTs every calendar year, based on half the points. I own one odd year contract and two annual contracts. I receive 4 RTs every calendar year. I receive 3 HK in even use years and 5 HK in odd use years. The real issue now is HK in terms of points management vs expense. They spread out the RTs evenly apparently to acknowledge you could book your biennial points in advance during the off year, or during the use year.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> Specifically to this point - between the 10K retail points and the 200K resale points, the owner has paid for 3 HKs and between 2 and 3 RTs.  Having the 10K retail points credited for their 1/7th HK and 10/77th RT wouldn't be piggybacking VIP benefits - piggybacking VIP benefits would be allowing unlimited HKs and RTs because there's some retail in there.  That's not going to happen.



Owners will be able to choose from one of two points buckets when making each reservation.  Developer or resale.  Owners will have no ability to choose how many points to pull from each bucket.  You can simply choose the bucket - one bucket - for one reservation transaction.  Per the guidance we've already received - if you choose your resale bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year bucket, or borrow from the CUY developer bucket - however the entire transaction is still considered a resale transaction at that point for the purposes of GC/HK/RT allotments - because when _any _resale points are included in the transaction - it will always be considered a resale transaction.  If you choose your developer bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year developer bucket (if in the express window) - or rent points from Wyndham - to complete the developer points transaction - you can _never _borrow from a resale bucket based upon the guidance we have received.

With all of this in mind, I don't really see how VIP owners could game the new system - but I'll admit I haven't thought through various use cases either.


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## troy12n

Something maybe Wyndham should start considering is allowing unused RT and HK roll over year to year...


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Per the guidance we've already received - if you choose your resale bucket - and that bucket doesn't have enough points to cover the reservation in scope - then you can either borrow from a future use year bucket, or borrow from the CUY developer bucket - at which point the entire transaction shifts to a developer bucket transaction for the purposes of GC/HK/RT allotments.



This sounds different from what it says on the website: “When booking using Non-VIP Eligible Points, VIP Eligible Points may be borrowed and any such reservation or transaction will not be eligible for VIP benefits,” and I would assume VIP benefits would include the unlimited/extra GC/HK/RT, or am I wrong?


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> This sounds different from what it says on the website: “When booking using Non-VIP Eligible Points, VIP Eligible Points may be borrowed and any such reservation or transaction will not be eligible for VIP benefits,” and I would assume VIP benefits would include the unlimited/extra GC/HK/RT, or am I wrong?



Yes - I already corrected my wording - I'm multi-tasking while working so I often end up having to go back and edit after reading my own posts since I'm unable to dedicate most of my thought process to non-work related items during normal business hours.


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## Pathways

Eric B said:


> To an extent, I agree with you.  Clearly setting up a system that has loopholes to exploit will result in them being exploited, but I don't view the potential to use the RTs and HKs that someone is paying for as being akin to using what I would view as truly being VIP benefits - the discounts, upgrades, RARP, Margaritaville access, and extra HKs and unlimited RTs that are being paid for out of the VIP program.  No doubt it's something that Owner Care could make adjustments for, should they be so inclined, but it would strike me as odd to set up a system where letting someone use what they have already paid for (the RTs/HKs) has to be an exception rather than the rule.  If you look at it from the perspective of "I've paid for 10 HKs and 9 RTs in the program fees for my 700,000 VIP-eligible points, but I can't use any of them for this stay because I've also used 5,000 non-VIP-eligible points to book that stay, so I have to pay for an extra HK and RT" it seems like a bad idea.  It may be that they aren't setting it up that way and will allow use of the underlying paid-for HKs and RTs, but it's not terribly clear that it will be the case and seems as though it might not work that way based on the posts from @HitchHiker71.  It could be that they aren't looking at it all that closely and this is an unintended consequence because hybrid-VIP owners are very much in the minority, but I'm willing to bet that they won't fix it if we don't ask.



Eric - You're not a newbie here

Paragraphs and spacing  PLEASE

My old eyes just couldn't handle 3 or 4 of your posts!


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## Eric B

Pathways said:


> Eric - You're not a newbie here
> 
> Paragraphs and spacing  PLEASE
> 
> My old eyes just couldn't handle 3 or 4 of your posts!



Well, I'll take that as a compliment - it was engaging enough that you wanted to read it!



paxsarah said:


> Just to correct a misconception, biennial owners receive the same number of RTs every calendar year, based on half the points. I own one odd year contract and two annual contracts. I receive 4 RTs every calendar year. I receive 3 HK in even use years and 5 HK in odd use years. The real issue now is HK in terms of points management vs expense. They spread out the RTs evenly apparently to acknowledge you could book your biennial points in advance during the off year, or during the use year.



Thanks!  That will make my planning a lot easier, getting 3 RTs per year instead of 1 and 4 in alternating years.



HitchHiker71 said:


> The program fee doesn't cover the cost of the entire VIP program - it only covers a subset of the basic benefits - the rest is covered by the Sales & Marketing division. I've never seen a detailed breakdown of how the VIP program costs are divided up, but I have heard from multiple folks over time that the way the costs break down is that the program fees cover the costs of benefits that are inclusive to non-VIP ownerships. So for example, the program fees cover the standard contract benefits that any non-VIP retail owner is entitled to - the standard number of GCs/HKs/RTs. My current understanding is that the Sales & Marketing division then pays for any VIP program costs beyond that - so if the VIP owner uses GCs/HKs/RTs beyond what a non-VIP retail owner is entitled to via the standard program fees - then the Sales & Marketing division pays for the difference. With this in mind, why would the Sales & Marketing team continue to pay for any aspect of VIP benefits applied toward resale points? Especially given the announced changes and the separation of developer and resale points buckets. That's essentially the ask if I'm understanding it correctly.



That's close to the heart of the issue as I see it.  Given the smoothing of the RT allocations for EOY ownerships, it might not come up except in unusual circumstances, but it's worth thinking about when you develop a complicated system like this.  I would phrase the ask like this:

"The conventional wisdom amongst owners is that the program fees they pay cover the corresponding housekeeping credits and reservation transactions they are allocated.  For VIP owners, this is supplemented by funding from sales and marketing for credits and transactions above the normal allocation.  Because the ruleset for this update to the program does not allow use of the normal allocation of housekeeping credits and reservation transactions paid for by a VIP owner who uses a combination of developer and resale points in a stay, this has the unintended consequences of stripping the credits and transactions the owner has paid for.  Would Wyndham consider establishing as a policy for Owner Care that a VIP owner making a mixed transaction could use one housekeeping credit allocated to the VIP points if there are at least 70,000 VIP-eligible points used and one reservation transaction if there are at least 77,000 VIP-eligible points used?  Such a policy would act to restore the appropriate relationship between the funding source for the housekeeping credits and reservation transactions while avoiding either the potential for gaming the system or the inappropriate attribution of sales and marketing as the source of funding for them.  It could also form the basis for a future revision to the Benefit Summary system."


----------



## pangodad

No need to use hybrid points to complete a resale reservation. Just borrow from next year's resale bucket


----------



## Pathways

Eric B said:


> Well, I'll take that as a compliment - it was engaging enough that you wanted to read it!



Please do - always like your perspective


----------



## Eric B

pangodad said:


> No need to use hybrid points to complete a resale reservation. Just borrow from next year's resale bucket



Not sure the incentives line up for that.  Borrowing from next year's resale bucket would be just in the express reservation window and the best (IMHO) use for a worthwhile resale ownership is either in ARP or at 10 months for a high cost stay.  Once you get to the express window, you're probably better off using VIP points and seeking the discounts/upgrades.


----------



## pangodad

You probably right if you are in the 60 day window. If you are outside, its beneficial to borrow. VIP points are 2.5 times more valuable that Resale points (M fee wise). If I preserve my VIP points (and unlimited HK) for 60 day and upgrade window trips, we can take more 2-3 day trips to Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk.


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## raygo123

Eric B said:


> Not sure the incentives line up for that. Borrowing from next year's resale bucket would be just in the express reservation window and the best (IMHO) use for a worthwhile resale ownership is either in ARP or at 10 months for a high cost stay. Once you get to the express window, you're probably better off using VIP points and seeking the discounts/upgrades.


Would that not be true for any bucket?: The VIP BUCKET as well? The last night rule as well.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23

bnoble said:


> This connects to something I think about a lot, and have said more than once: Timeshare is a product that is _sold rather than bought_. Almost no one wakes up in the morning thinking: "Today I'm going to go out and obligate myself to a lifetime of the maintenance and upkeep of (a part of) a luxury condo that I can't easily divest myself from." But, that's _exactly_ what a resale buyer is doing: they made the decision to buy and went out looking for something, found it, and bought it.
> 
> If you hang around TUG, you'd think that all kinds of people wake up with exactly this thought. After all, I have--more than once now--and so have most of the rest of you. But, we are "timeshare enthusiasts," and one definition of enthusiast is: someone who is not at all representative of the average customer.
> 
> Instead, nearly all timeshares are sold to people who are on vacation. They are having the time of their lives, and while they are there a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle that magical feeling and experience it again every year for what can be very affordable monthly payments when compared to what they "ordinarily" spend on travel. That sales process is remarkably sophisticated, and it works so well that about half of TUGgers have bought that way--usually before they found their way here, but still.
> 
> I knew all of this, but I didn't realize just _how_ "not at all representative" I was (and we are). Because that quoted statistic means that more than 99% of all "owner families" were sold a Wyndham timeshare, and just 0.8% of us bought one. It also explains why the market for a Wyndham timeshare is so favorable to buyers: there are hardly any of us compared to the pool of potential sellers.


Very well thought out.  I agree 100% with you.  I think that is why Orlando became so inundated with timeshares.  The magical Disney experience mixed with the idea of going every year and staying in a nice place over a hotel room.  

I have seen timeshare salespeople take a buyer into the lockoff studio side first, then walk through the door into the big living area with the full kitchen second.  They say, "This is basically what you are staying in at your hotel...(cue lockoff door opening)...and this is what timeshare is about, spreading out and really relaxing in a place that feels like home."  I remember at Cypress Pointe there was a lady in the kitchen baking cookies and holding the plate out to all of us on the tour.  I remember thinking it was such a clever idea.  That was in 1991.  30 years ago!


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## ronparise

cbyrne1174 said:


> IMO resale ownership is the cheapest possible way you can afford the lifestyle. Renting is usually more expensive, especially now that they closed the VIP/resale loophole. 100% resale ownership is the lowest cost and most logical choice, so it's frugal people that do their research who are attracted to resale ownership. I spent about 3 months researching every single major timeshare system (Marriott, Hilton, DVC, Bluegreen, Wastegate, Diamond, Vistana, Wyndham) before I picked Wyndham resale, then spent my sweet time waiting for low MF deeds to pop up that weren't expensive. I mostly found good all my good deals in the winter time.  I only picked up what I could use for the next 40+ years.
> 
> However, the general population (at least in FL), are too stupid to make smart and responsible decisions.  [ Covid comment redacted ]
> 
> I think that's why Wyndham has been reducing VIP benefits because they don't want retail purchases to be an educated decision. They want impulse buyers only. That's the type of customer they make the most profit from. There are a decent amount of people who make decent money because they are good at 1 thing, but lack critical thinking skills. All of the active VIPs on this forum bought when it made sense to and are getting their money's worth, even with the new restrictions. I know @Jan M. bought when it was Fairfield, uses almost all of her points 60 days out, and is passing on her PR deed at a low MF resort to her only child and @HitchHiker71 PIC'd to Gold and had a plan to break even in 10 years. Most who bought had a plan to get their money's worth when they bought. However, those deals don't exist anymore because Wyndham canned unlimited HK, making a new VIP purchase useless to the educated buyer, which isn't their target customer because they are the minority of people.



i agree completely with what yousay about Covid and Floridians but let’s not talk about that, it’s a little off topic and I would end up getting political

and I agree with you about the best way, or at least the best way or at least the most financially advantageous  to buy Wyndham points. Is on the secondary market

if someone buys 1 million points for $150000 with $5000 per year fees and reserves all his vacations in the discount window I would need 2 million secondary market points to match his usage. My up front costs will be something like $10000 and my annual cost twice what the other guys pays

At  the end of 20 years the guy that bought from Wyndham will have paid  $250,000 and the secondary market buyer will have paid $210,000

I know I didn’t account for ever increasing maintenance fees and that would probably result in the secondary market guy paying more in the 20 years I assumed. But neither did I assume interest on a loan the first guy will spend if he borrows to buy his points. And if we compare cash buyers  The first guy will have nothing at the end and the second guy will have his money still in the bank


----------



## cbyrne1174

ronparise said:


> i agree completely with what yousay about Covid and Floridians but let’s not talk about that, it’s a little off topic and I would end up getting political
> 
> and I agree with you about the best way, or at least the best way or at least the most financially advantageous  to buy Wyndham points. Is on the secondary market
> 
> if someone buys 1 million points for $150000 with $5000 per year fees and reserves all his vacations in the discount window I would need 2 million secondary market points to match his usage. My up front costs will be something like $10000 and my annual cost twice what the other guys pays
> 
> At  the end of 20 years the guy that bought from Wyndham will have paid  $250,000 and the secondary market buyer will have paid $210,000
> 
> I know I didn’t account for ever increasing maintenance fees and that would probably result in the secondary market guy paying more in the 20 years I assumed. But neither did I assume interest on a loan the first guy will spend if he borrows to buy his points. And if we compare cash buyers  The first guy will have nothing at the end and the second guy will have his money still in the bank



You can also compare how much money the person could have made investing into a safe index fund (like the S&P). Does the person paying cash also max out their Roth IRA every year? That's an average of 10% tax free growth on 6k per person per year. That's 45k of tax free income over 10 years with a 10% return. So if your purchase costed you 60k, you lost out on 45k of growth if you weren't already maxing out your retirement account.


----------



## cbyrne1174

troy12n said:


> Yep, our governor is too busy sucking  up to the lowest common denominator than making smart decisions. And a good percentage of our residents are following him off the cliff. I got  my vaccine in March.



Well that's the customer Wyndham is trying to sell to. When I was at an update at BC this summer, I got gifted before the presentation even started lol. $150 for 10 minutes of my time!


----------



## HitchHiker71

pangodad said:


> No need to use hybrid points to complete a resale reservation. Just borrow from next year's resale bucket



Yes - but that assumes you're making a reservation in the express window, and given most folks with hybrid accounts are probably going to use their resale points for larger points reservations farther out than 90 days - borrowing from the future use year often isn't going to be a valid option.


----------



## bnoble

...except as a portion of the last night's stay, which is surprisingly helpful.


----------



## paxsarah

bnoble said:


> ...except as a portion of the last night's stay, which is surprisingly helpful.


Part of me wants to ask @HitchHiker71 to check with their Wyndham contacts about whether this change to borrowing is intentional and permanent, but most of me wants to leave well enough alone and hope it stays.  Or maybe it gets spelled out in the upcoming new directory.


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## jbroner

kanerf said:


> The other problem will be dead points.  You don't have either enough VIP or Non-VIP to make the reservation and not enough of either to make any reservation, so these points are effectively dead.


Maybe they will reduce the 10K minimum to deposit into RCI.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Answers from Wyndham on our outstanding list of questions below.  The answers provided have been officially reviewed and approved by Wyndham for public consumption:
> 
> *What, if any effect, does this change have for things like using outrigger banked points in future years to book longer stays at outrigger locations? So e.g. if you bank all outrigger account points from 2021 to 2022 can you book ALL those points at outrigger in 2022?*
> Yes all points should be useable in future use years - no changes are taking place that would impact this use case scenario.


you go away a few days and boom- pages and pages to read, lol.

Thanks for you work on this! really appreciate it - especially since it's not your 'real' job. 
If you get a chance can you revisit the question I quoted above? If this is correct then it is a change. Here's the example. Say I own 1million outrigger eligible points but want to stay at Outrigger Waikiki Beach Resort in prime season for a week, I can't do that currently. But if what they say above is true, then I can bank 540,000 points from 2021 to 2022 and book a week during prime for 1,540,000 points. Current rules allow one to only book at outrigger whatever the contract amount they own per year meaning with 1 million outrigger points one can never book a prime week at Waikiki.


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## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> you go away a few days and boom- pages and pages to read, lol.
> 
> Thanks for you work on this! really appreciate it - especially since it's not your 'real' job.
> If you get a chance can you revisit the question I quoted above? If this is correct then it is a change. Here's the example. Say I own 1million outrigger eligible points but want to stay at Outrigger Waikiki Beach Resort in prime season for a week, I can't do that currently. But if what they say above is true, then I can bank 540,000 points from 2021 to 2022 and book a week during prime for 1,540,000 points. Current rules allow one to only book at outrigger whatever the contract amount they own per year meaning with 1 million outrigger points one can never book a prime week at Waikiki.



None of the rules are changing with respect to points usage except for VIP benefits applying to resale points. So if you cannot do something today, you won’t be able to do it once these changes are rolled out.  The Q&A provided is geared specifically toward VIP changes.  


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## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> None of the rules are changing with respect to points usage except for VIP benefits applying to resale points. So if you cannot do something today, you won’t be able to do it once these changes are rolled out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The reason you can't do it today is they said that they had no way of knowing what contract the banked points came from. But since they are separating out the contracts then they now know where your points come from when banking, hence, this SHOULD be doable. Since the response you got from them indicated it would be possible, it seems clarification is needed.


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## Cyrus24

VacayKat said:


> since they are separating out the contracts then they now know where your points come from when banking, hence, this SHOULD be doable. Since the response you got from them indicated it would be possible, it seems clarification is needed.


Excellent question.  I'm wanting to use my Outrigger points in 2023.  I should be able to move my 2021 and 2022 points into 2023.  Would give me over 1MM.  Hmmm, seems that Wyndham should be able to make this work.


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## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> The reason you can't do it today is they said that they had no way of knowing what contract the banked points came from. But since they are separating out the contracts then they now know where your points come from when banking, hence, this SHOULD be doable. Since the response you got from them indicated it would be possible, it seems clarification is needed.



Ok, I see where the misunderstanding is. First, they are NOT separating out contracts - they are creating two points buckets instead of a single points bucket. A developer points bucket and a resale points bucket. Wyndham isn’t coding ANY other changes except for the points bucket changes and VIP changes. 

I don’t own Outrigger and have no idea what that even means. I now understand that the original question really has nothing to do with the VIP change topic. I also had no idea that there was a 1MM point limit on outrigger future use year banking when briefly discussing that particular question. 

To be clear, I drafted ALL of the responses and then reviewed my draft answers via a zoom meeting with two Wyndham contacts. Since we weren’t focused on resale changes - my draft response wasn’t reviewed with that in mind - it was only reviewed with VIP changes in mind. So I would disregard the answers given since that specific question wasn’t really on topic.  I will remove it from the list so it doesn’t create more confusion.  

We were and are only focused on the changes specific to VIPs for this thread. Unless your question is VIP specific - let’s drop it for now as I don’t want to go down rabbit holes like this unless the questions are specifically about the announced VIP changes in this thread. 


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## raygo123

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ok, I see where the misunderstanding is. First, they are NOT separating out contracts - they are creating two points buckets instead of a single points bucket. A developer points bucket and a resale points bucket. Wyndham isn’t coding ANY other changes except for the points bucket changes and VIP changes.
> 
> I don’t own Outrigger and have no idea what that even means. I now understand that the original question really has nothing to do with the VIP change topic. I also had no idea that there was a 1MM point limit on outrigger future use year banking when briefly discussing that particular question.
> 
> To be clear, I drafted ALL of the responses and then reviewed my draft answers via a zoom meeting with two Wyndham contacts. Since we weren’t focused on resale changes - my draft response wasn’t reviewed with that in mind - it was only reviewed with VIP changes in mind. So I would disregard the answers given since that specific question wasn’t really on topic. I will remove it from the list so it doesn’t create more confusion.
> 
> We were and are only focused on the changes specific to VIPs for this thread. Unless your question is VIP specific - let’s drop it for now as I don’t want to go down rabbit holes like this unless the questions are specifically about the announced VIP changes in this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. They are creating nothing. You just didn't see the buckets. Previously Wyndham could only distinguish with their previous software access and non access. So when you were out, you would get the not enough points message. Everything else was not accountable. Do you still have to call at 13 months or not to book a deeded unit? If Wyndham does it right you will book on line. 

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Do you still have to call at 13 months or not to book a deeded unit? If Wyndham does it right you will book on line.


Do you mean deeded unit converted to points? (I have to assume so, because an unconverted fixed week doesn't need to be booked.) Because I can already book mine online if I want to.


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## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ok, I see where the misunderstanding is. First, they are NOT separating out contracts - they are creating two points buckets instead of a single points bucket. A developer points bucket and a resale points bucket. Wyndham isn’t coding ANY other changes except for the points bucket changes and VIP changes.
> 
> I don’t own Outrigger and have no idea what that even means. I now understand that the original question really has nothing to do with the VIP change topic. I also had no idea that there was a 1MM point limit on outrigger future use year banking when briefly discussing that particular question.
> 
> To be clear, I drafted ALL of the responses and then reviewed my draft answers via a zoom meeting with two Wyndham contacts. Since we weren’t focused on resale changes - my draft response wasn’t reviewed with that in mind - it was only reviewed with VIP changes in mind. So I would disregard the answers given since that specific question wasn’t really on topic.  I will remove it from the list so it doesn’t create more confusion.
> 
> We were and are only focused on the changes specific to VIPs for this thread. Unless your question is VIP specific - let’s drop it for now as I don’t want to go down rabbit holes like this unless the questions are specifically about the announced VIP changes in this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Craig I think some people have questions that aren't clarified.

In both your developer and resale buckets will you see what you own in each? Say you own CWS, CWA and PR in both developer and resale. Will you have buckets for each type of points under both developer and resale? Will you be able to select which points you must or want to use for the reservations you make? Or will it just be two point buckets with no division of the type of points and it will say sorry but you don't have enough of the right type of points to make that reservation? If that's the case you would have no choice in which type of points get used first?


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## HitchHiker71

raygo123 said:


> No. They are creating nothing. You just didn't see the buckets. Previously Wyndham could only distinguish with their previous software access and non access. So when you were out, you would get the not enough points message. Everything else was not accountable. Do you still have to call at 13 months or not to book a deeded unit? If Wyndham does it right you will book on line.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk



Agreed - the points buckets were already there on the back end. However the work being done is on the front end to expose the buckets and is limited only to the announced changes. I don’t know any other way to say this. People keep asking about changes to resale that stand apart from the VIP announced changes. Did anyone receive any communication about resale changes? I didn’t see one, nor was I told about any. Please attempt to stay on topic especially when it comes to questions we want to put in front of Wyndham specific to the announced VIP changes. If we want to create a separate thread specific to resale changes that stand apart from what was actually announced - then let’s do so. 


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## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> Craig I think some people have questions that aren't clarified.
> 
> In both your developer and resale buckets will you see what you own in each? Say you own CWS, CWA and PR in both developer and resale. Will you have buckets for each type of points under both developer and resale? Will you be able to select which points you must or want to use for the reservations you make? Or will it just be two point buckets with no division of the type of points and it will say sorry but you don't have enough of the right type of points to make that reservation? If that's the case you would have no choice in which type of points get used first?



Jan,

Understood - but that’s not what this thread is about. It will only be two points buckets when making online reservations. The test account being used has ALL ownerships included. If you look at the screenshot/video you can plainly see that the account has PR ownership listed on the benefits summary page for example, yet the video only shows two points buckets - developer and resale - when making a reservation - so your question is already answered via the video we can all see with our own eyes. Go watch the video again - its right there for everyone to see. It’s just the two points buckets - developer and resale - when processing reservations online. I can’t say it more directly than I already have. 

That said, if we all want to start a thread on resale changes - then let’s do so - but this thread is about VIP benefits no longer applying to resale points. Let’s please try to stay on topic at least with regard to the VIP benefits Q&A results. I need to manage the scope here and ensure we are only putting relevant questions in front of Wyndham that pertain to the topic at hand. 

If we want to go down the resale rabbit hole, I will likely have to engage with different resources at Wyndham if we want to broaden the topics and attempt to pursue more system changes to provide functionality that doesn’t exist today - that’s an entirely different type of conversation - so it’s not as simple as putting a bunch of different questions on different topics in front of one or two people - they won’t know the answers - and the proof in this is that the question regarding Outrigger wasn’t answered correctly because it’s out of context and went right over the heads of the two resources who are very much focused on managing the VIP changes. I hope this makes sense. 


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Understood - but that’s not what this thread is about. It will only be two points buckets when making online reservations. The test account being used has ALL ownerships included. If you look at the screenshot/video you can plainly see that the account has PR ownership listed on the benefits summary page for example, yet the video only shows two points buckets - developer and resale - when making a reservation - so your question is already answered via the video we can all see with our own eyes. Go watch the video again - its right there for everyone to see. It’s just the two points buckets - developer and resale - when processing reservations online. I can’t say it more directly than I already have.



While the system only gives you the choice of two points buckets (developer and resale) for making a reservation, it's showing that the other points buckets are being tracked (see, e.g., frame 1:10, which has filters for the benefit summary for Club Wyndham Plus, Home Resort, Club Pass, External Exchange, Presidential Reserve, and Charitable Gift).  You don't have to select those buckets when you make a reservation because they are inherent in the reservation you're making - Home Resort would be mandatory for a reservation that's in ARP unless you're using RARP and developer points from a different resort, Club Pass is pretty obvious, Presidential Reserve would be mandatory for those units when not available to all owners.  There might be some minor perturbations to the outcomes like a PR owner booking a PR unit that was also available to anyone or a CWS owner booking their home resort during RARP using developer points from somewhere else, but the nice thing is that now you'll be able to see what was used once the reservation has been made by looking at the benefits summary - hopefully you'll be able to contact owner services and have the usage modified if, for example, you want to keep your home resort points for a different reservation or something like that.


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## paxsarah

It sounds like there will now be two points buckets as we traditionally understood buckets - resale and VIP-eligible - but that within those two buckets, the additional types of ownership/benefits will continue to use the benefit/allotment method that was introduced in 2017. That is, someone will have to choose a bucket when making a reservation, but once that choice is made, they don’t have to choose between, say, their Bonnet Creek or their Myrtle Beach contract. If they use one of those for ARP, that amount will be deducted from the appropriate benefit, but if they book inside 10 months, both benefits will remain full.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> While the system only gives you the choice of two points buckets (developer and resale) for making a reservation, it's showing that the other points buckets are being tracked (see, e.g., frame 1:10, which has filters for the benefit summary for Club Wyndham Plus, Home Resort, Club Pass, External Exchange, Presidential Reserve, and Charitable Gift). You don't have to select those buckets when you make a reservation because they are inherent in the reservation you're making - Home Resort would be mandatory for a reservation that's in ARP unless you're using RARP and developer points from a different resort, Club Pass is pretty obvious, Presidential Reserve would be mandatory for those units when not available to all owners. There might be some minor perturbations to the outcomes like a PR owner booking a PR unit that was also available to anyone or a CWS owner booking their home resort during RARP using developer points from somewhere else, but the nice thing is that now you'll be able to see what was used once the reservation has been made by looking at the benefits summary - hopefully you'll be able to contact owner services and have the usage modified if, for example, you want to keep your home resort points for a different reservation or something like that.



Yes exactly - if you have any questions on how a particular transaction is charged to your buckets and/or benefits (GCs/HKs/RTs) - you can always contact Owner Resolution as the Q&A indicates. They may or may not be able to do something about it dependent upon the use case in scope. 


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> It sounds like there will now be two points buckets as we traditionally understood buckets - resale and VIP-eligible - but that within those two buckets, the additional types of ownership/benefits will continue to use the benefit/allotment method that was introduced in 2017. That is, someone will have to choose a bucket when making a reservation, but once that choice is made, they don’t have to choose between, say, their Bonnet Creek or their Myrtle Beach contract. If they use one of those for ARP, that amount will be deducted from the appropriate benefit, but if they book inside 10 months, both benefits will remain full.



Correct, as repeatedly stated - no other changes to the online reservation system are in scope - only the two points buckets as announced - and only VIP benefits not applying to resale points reservations as announced. 

If you think it through - anything else quickly becomes much more complex to code and roll out - as Wyndham would pretty much have to deconstruct and reconstruct the entire logic engine for processing reservations to process reservations in a different manner than they do today.  That would be a huge undertaking. The logic, as @paxsarah said, for benefit/allotment application doesn’t change at all - it simply applies to either the developer and/or resale points buckets using the exact same system logic in place today. I hope this helps. 


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> Do you mean deeded unit converted to points? (I have to assume so, because an unconverted fixed week doesn't need to be booked.) Because I can already book mine online if I want to.


Your particular unit if not a udi? I know my udi is at a set of units rather than All.

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Your particular unit if not a udi? I know my udi is at a set of units rather than All.


I own a converted fixed week. I can book that week and only that week online during ARP.


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> I own a converted fixed week. I can book that week and only that week online during ARP.


Yes I also had one. I now have a udi. Have you always stayed in the unit you bought? Do you have that option.

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Yes I also had one. I now have a udi. Have you always stayed in the unit you bought? Do you have that option.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


No, I never have. I only know I can book only the underlying week and unit type - anything else throws an error - but I don’t know if they assign the specific unit in my deed at the resort level.


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> Part of me wants to ask @HitchHiker71 to check with their Wyndham contacts about whether this change to borrowing is intentional and permanent, but most of me wants to leave well enough alone and hope it stays.  Or maybe it gets spelled out in the upcoming new directory.



I wonder aloud what would happen if you attempted to use this "last night" borrowing feature when using the "Add nights" feature?


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> I wonder aloud what would happen if you attempted to use this "last night" borrowing feature when using the "Add nights" feature?



It's probably something that would be somewhat self-limiting unless you can borrow all of the points for the last night.  The way it's discussed on page 249 of the directory for renting points in the standard reservation window is "you may rent only enough points to complete a portion of the last night’s stay," which implies to me that you can't rent enough points for the whole of the last night's stay.

If you have to have at least one point from the current use year to borrow the same as it seems you have to for renting, the only way you could borrow for more than one "last night" added on would be if you freed up less than enough points for that night.  It's something you might be able to do technically over and over again, but would eat up reservation transactions unless done with VIP-eligible points.

Another good question would be regarding whether you can borrow resale points to complete the last night of a reservation not using VIP benefits if you have remaining VIP-eligible points in the current use year.


----------



## raygo123

HitchHiker71 said:


> I wonder aloud what would happen if you attempted to use this "last night" borrowing feature when using the "Add nights" feature?


Full boat outside and half points if Platinum when made in the discount window. That's what I interpreted. As long as you have retail points left from next year.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


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## Jan M.

raygo123 said:


> Full boat outside and half points if Platinum when made in the discount window. That's what I interpreted. As long as you have retail points left from next year.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk



If you use both developer and resale points for a reservation you don't get your VIP benefits on the reservation. That's why it shows the option of renting the additional points you would need.

This is how I'm thinking it will work when you've booked something in the 60 day window getting your VIP discount and then wanted to add an extra night. The only two options you would have would be to rent points or borrow points from the next use year if you didn't have enough developer points left in the current use year.


----------



## raygo123

Jan M. said:


> If you use both developer and resale points for a reservation you don't get your VIP benefits on the reservation. That's why it shows the option of renting the additional points you would need.
> 
> This is how I'm thinking it will work when you've booked something in the 60 day window getting your VIP discount and then wanted to add an extra night. The only two options you would have would be to rent points or borrow points from the next use year if you didn't have enough developer points left in the current use year.


I agree you don't get the VIP BENEFIT with any mix of resale and retail. With that I don't think you need to rent points as add on is not a VIP benefit. Is it? I'm wrong if it is VIP BENEFIT.

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## Jan M.

raygo123 said:


> I agree you don't get the VIP BENEFIT with any mix of resale and retail. With that I don't think you need to rent points as add on is not a VIP benefit. Is it? I'm wrong if it is VIP BENEFIT.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk



I don't believe adding a night or nights is a VIP benefit.


----------



## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> With that I don't think you need to rent points as add on is not a VIP benefit.


The VIP benefit was used when booking the original reservation, so only VIP-eligible points can be used when adding a night. If no VIP-eligible points are left in the use year, then it seems the only option would be to borrow VIP-eligible points from the next year, or potentially rent at $12/k (which seems like a “neutral” point source).


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## Ty1on

Jan M. said:


> I don't believe adding a night or nights is a VIP benefit.


I think what he is saying is book 4 nights with the VIP discount, then add a night at full rate with resale points.  If you tried to book all five nights, the resale points you require to complete the resv would nullify VIP discount on the entire stay.


----------



## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> The VIP benefit was used when booking the original reservation, so only VIP-eligible points can be used when adding a night. If no VIP-eligible points are left in the use year, then it seems the only option would be to borrow VIP-eligible points from the next year, or potentially rent at $12/k (which seems like a “neutral” point source).


Why? It not being a benefit? It just might be you just don't get the discount on the resale points which is. It just might be a stand alone booking that the computer recognizes. Theoretically you could always book six nights under the discount window and just add the seventh with the modify reservation using resale points. If that's the case, yes the amount of units that can be booked with the new rules would extend your overall discount would be 35 to 40% rather than 50 or 60 %. Now that would create a new loophole.

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## raygo123

Ty1on said:


> I think what he is saying is book 4 nights with the VIP discount, then add a night at full rate with resale points. If you tried to book all five nights, the resale points you require to complete the resv would nullify VIP discount on the entire stay.


Well!

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Why? It not being a benefit? It just might be you just don't get the discount on the resale points which is. It just might be a stand alone booking that the computer recognizes. Theoretically you could always book six nights under the discount window and just add the seventh with the modify reservation using resale points. If that's the case, yes the amount of units that can be booked with the new rules would extend your overall discount would be 35 to 40% rather than 50 or 60 %. Now that would create a new loophole.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


I’m going by Wyndham’s statement on the webpage about these changes that says

When booking using VIP Eligible Points, Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be borrowed.
and taking it at face value. The booking with VIP eligible points may not borrow non-VIP eligible points. At least, as I read it.


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## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> I wonder aloud what would happen if you attempted to use this "last night" borrowing feature when using the "Add nights" feature?


If I remember it correctly, you can't borrow *all* of the points needed for the "last night," only a *portion* of the points required for that night. So, that would rule out adding an additional night via borrowing.


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## Ty1on

Double post


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## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> If I remember it correctly, you can't borrow *all* of the points needed for the "last night," only a *portion* of the points required for that night. So, that would rule out adding an additional night via borrowing.


Suppose you have 1000 Vip points left and borrow 13000 to complete a 14000 point night?


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## Eric B

bnoble said:


> If I remember it correctly, you can't borrow *all* of the points needed for the "last night," only a *portion* of the points required for that night. So, that would rule out adding an additional night via borrowing.



That’s what is in the directory on page 249 for renting points.  There’s nothing in there about borrowing from future use years for the last night in the standard reservation window, so we can only guess how it works (and whether it will continue to work).


----------



## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> I’m going by Wyndham’s statement on the webpage about these changes that says
> 
> When booking using VIP Eligible Points, Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be borrowed.
> and taking it at face value. The booking with VIP eligible points may not borrow non-VIP eligible points. At least, as I read it.


This had nothing to do with borrowing. If you book a five nights stay in the discount window. Now you go by immediately to the reservation and it shows the other two nights on the modify reservation button. If you can use resale points for the extension of the two nights that would lower the total cost in points for the seven day reservation if otherwise you would have to use retail points. Again in theory if the computer doesn't recognize the fact that the points are resale.

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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> This had nothing to do with borrowing. If you book a five nights stay in the discount window. Now you go by immediately to the reservation and it shows the other two nights on the modify reservation button. If you can use resale points for the extension of the two nights that would lower the total cost in points for the seven day reservation if otherwise you would have to use retail points. Again in theory if the computer doesn't recognize the fact that the points are resale.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


Have you familiarized yourself with the information that Wyndham has published on this change? The way in which points can be combined _in the same use year_ is referred to as borrowing in the documentation. You can borrow VIP-eligible points from the same use year into a resale reservation, and those VIP-eligible points lose VIP benefits in the process. You cannot borrow resale points into a reservation made with VIP-eligible points. The clear intent, then, is that resale points shouldn’t be allowed to be used to add nights to an existing VIP eligible reservation, because that would be borrowing resale points into a VIP reservation.
Now, will they have considered this possibility and programmed the system correctly to prevent this? Who can say. But if they’ve done it properly, when modifying a reservation made from the VIP-eligible bucket it should only allow nights to be added with points from the VIP-eligible bucket.


----------



## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> Have you familiarized yourself with the information that Wyndham has published on this change? The way in which points can be combined _in the same use year_ is referred to as borrowing in the documentation. You can borrow VIP-eligible points from the same use year into a resale reservation, and those VIP-eligible points lose VIP benefits in the process. You cannot borrow resale points into a reservation made with VIP-eligible points. The clear intent, then, is that resale points shouldn’t be allowed to be used to add nights to an existing VIP eligible reservation, because that would be borrowing resale points into a VIP reservation.
> Now, will they have considered this possibility and programmed the system correctly to prevent this? Who can say. But if they’ve done it properly, when modifying a reservation made from the VIP-eligible bucket it should only allow nights to be added with points from the VIP-eligible bucket.


That is why I called it a loophole. That's what the whole mega renters got started, on a loophole.based on past experience with the Wyndham last attempts.

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## Eric B

raygo123 said:


> This had nothing to do with borrowing. If you book a five nights stay in the discount window. Now you go by immediately to the reservation and it shows the other two nights on the modify reservation button. If you can use resale points for the extension of the two nights that would lower the total cost in points for the seven day reservation if otherwise you would have to use retail points. Again in theory if the computer doesn't recognize the fact that the points are resale.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk



I hadn’t heard of anyone being able to do this yet, very likely because the update to the system hasn’t been made yet.  I’m not all that sure it’s worth getting terribly upset about until we know how things are implemented, though as @paxsarah points out, the rules as they describe them wouldn’t allow it as a single reservation.  Once the update happens, if it’s possible to do that you might consider giving them feedback - to me the only real savings from  doing that in the grand scheme of things would be the reservation transaction and housekeeping on booking the 2-night resale stay since it would be possible in any case.  Given the de minimus cost to Wyndham of a reservation transaction and the potential to avoid housekeeping costs to turn over the room if the same people stay in it for the VIP stay and the resale stay, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it if it were implemented to allow it. In fact, I would view it as a way Wyndham could provide beneficial flexibility to owners at very little cost or potential for abuse, perhaps with a minor adjustment to strip out the VIP room request that isn’t always delivered on anyway.

My guess, however, is that they won’t allow resale add ons to VIP reservations.  That would likely be more complicated than prohibiting them.


----------



## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> That is why I called it a loophole. That's what the whole mega renters got started, on a loophole.based on past experience with the Wyndham last attempts.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


If this is the best loophole they can come up with, then I guess Wyndham’s been pretty successful in shutting things down. And we don’t even know if they’ve left this loophole open - it seems obvious based on the documentation so far that adding a night to a VIP-eligible reservation should only allow points from the same bucket.


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## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> If this is the best loophole they can come up with, then I guess Wyndham’s been pretty successful in shutting things down. And we don’t even know if they’ve left this loophole open - it seems obvious based on the documentation so far that adding a night to a VIP-eligible reservation should only allow points from the same bucket.



About the only benefit I could see for doing that would be to target VIP discounts at weekend days or prime season days at a transition in order to get more bang for the buck. Even that would be a stretch, though.  I do think you’re right that it won’t be possible absent a good deal of sub par management.


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## raygo123

Eric B said:


> About the only benefit I could see for doing that would be to target VIP discounts at weekend days or prime season days at a transition in order to get more bang for the buck. Even that would be a stretch, though. I do think you’re right that it won’t be possible absent a good deal of sub par management.


That is the basis of my theory. 

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## Ty1on

Eric B said:


> absent a good deal of sub par management.



Oh ye of little faith.....


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## HitchHiker71

Screenshots from today's Wyndham education session as it relates to the announced changes for those who could not attend:





The above screenshot shows the benefits summary with more explicit buckets than the video shared.  Note the CWP RARP buckets for each resort - and the HK buckets.  Below is a close up screenshot for ease of viewing:





Here's a screenshot of the Benefits history:





Here's the Benefits Filter options:





Here's an example of the Benefits History sorted by the above listed screenshot option "CWP":





Couple of important points that were discussed on the Wyndham education session today that are worth mentioning:

When making reservations - your choice between Developer and Resale buckets - this is a once and done choice.  You cannot - and Owner Resolution will not - change the selection once the reservation has been made.  The only way to accomplish this would be to cancel the reservation - and rebook a second reservation.  Understand that this will burn up an additional RT for the same reservation.
The complimentary points referred to in the original announcement for VIP resale owners will be given out based upon VIP-eligible points usage to account for situations where the VIP points bucket is zero'd out and/or significantly depleted as part of the audit and rollout process.  No specific guidance was given as to how the complimentary points will be calculated.  No resale complimentary points will be granted as part of this process.
If you have made a reservation already, and opted in for a VIP room upgrade - and that room upgrade has already been granted - but after the audit that same reservation used resale points - the upgrade granted will stay in place.  If you have requested an upgrade that has _not _been granted - and any resale points were used to facilitate that reservation - your upgrade request will be cancelled/removed.
If anyone else attended and has any other lessons learned - please post them so we can all share in the knowledge.

Lastly - for one month following the release of the Benefit Summary features, a dedicated toll free line will be available for any/all Benefits Summary specific questions - i.e. this phone bank will be staffed by people trained specifically about this new functionality and to answer specific VIP/resale questions:


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> When making reservations - your choice between Developer and Resale buckets - this is a once and done choice. You cannot - and Owner Resolution will not - change the selection once the reservation has been made. The only way to accomplish this would be to cancel the reservation - and rebook a second reservation. Understand that this will burn up an additional RT for the same reservation.





HitchHiker71 said:


> If you have requested an upgrade that has _not _been granted - and any resale points were used to facilitate that reservation - your upgrade request will be cancelled/removed.


One thing that occurred to me when she was explaining this (and I know, this wasn't technically my webinar, but I thought it would be interesting to listen) is that if a VIP has reservations where they opted in for an upgrade, but don't really have any specific plans to use the extra space or an upgrade is vanishingly unlikely, that between now and the system update it might be worth removing some upgrade requests (if that's the only thing flagging a reservation as VIP) if there's any concern about running low on VIP-eligible points after the sorting. She didn't really address this strategy at all, but it seems it may be prudent if anyone has any upgrade requests that are essentially throwaways, it might be worth canceling them.


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## Rolltydr

Were they any more specific on the date the system upgrade will occur? The only thing I have seen is mid August.


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## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> One thing that occurred to me when she was explaining this (and I know, this wasn't technically my webinar, but I thought it would be interesting to listen) is that if a VIP has reservations where they opted in for an upgrade, but don't really have any specific plans to use the extra space or an upgrade is vanishingly unlikely, that between now and the system update it might be worth removing some upgrade requests (if that's the only thing flagging a reservation as VIP) if there's any concern about running low on VIP-eligible points after the sorting. She didn't really address this strategy at all, but it seems it may be prudent if anyone has any upgrade requests that are essentially throwaways, it might be worth canceling them.


Sounds like a good plan as you can always add them back after if they end up being VIP eligible vacations.


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## HitchHiker71

Rolltydr said:


> Were they any more specific on the date the system upgrade will occur? The only thing I have seen is mid August.



No, just reiterated mid-August timeframe. 


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## bweltsch

From what was stated in the "seminar" yesterday, if you use ONE point from resale or third party it invalidates VIP status for that reservation. I think that would answer the extra night question.


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## Ty1on

bweltsch said:


> From what was stated in the "seminar" yesterday, if you use ONE point from resale or third party it invalidates VIP status for that reservation. I think that would answer the extra night question.



The extra night is a twist, though.  You have already booked a four night stay using 100% VIP points.  And let's say you did it at a VIP 50% points discount within 60 days.  Now you go back in and add an additional night using resale points with no discount.  So you have four nights on VIP privileges and one night on persona non grata privileges.....


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## troy12n

Already looking for ways to game the system


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## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> The extra night is a twist, though.  You have already booked a four night stay using 100% VIP points.  And let's say you did it at a VIP 50% points discount within 60 days.  Now you go back in and add an additional night using resale points with no discount.  So you have four nights on VIP privileges and one night on persona non grata privileges.....



Based upon the seminar yesterday - I'm going to speculate that since the points bucket selection is "once and done" on the initial reservation - the Add Nights function will _only _allow use of the points bucket originally used. We'll have to wait and see to be sure.


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## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> Based upon the seminar yesterday - I'm going to speculate that since the points bucket selection is "once and done" on the initial reservation - the Add Nights function will _only _allow use of the points bucket originally used. We'll have to wait and see to be sure.



If that is the case, then perhaps a split reservation then ask the resort to sew them together.  Some have said in these threads that it's a matter of learning the new rules and finding workarounds, and a couple were shot down for that, I think, but I believe that will be the case.  I believe there are owners here that are smarter than the smartest individual working for Wyndham, and when you smart ones get your heads together you become like an intellectual Megatron.


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## chapjim

Ty1on said:


> The extra night is a twist, though.  You have already booked a four night stay using 100% VIP points.  And let's say you did it at a VIP 50% points discount within 60 days.  Now you go back in and add an additional night using resale points with no discount.  So you have four nights on VIP privileges and one night on persona non grata privileges.....



Let's say the new system allows that.  The next question would be will the resort combine the reservations like they do now.  If the resort considers this to be two separate transactions, then you shot yourself in the foot.  You'll have to check out before 10 AM and check in again at 4 PM or whenever the unit is ready.

Logically, you can't have it both ways -- two separate transactions points-wise and a single seamless reservation at the resort.  The Lord only knows how it will turn out when the new "features" are rolled out.


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## paxsarah

Ty1on said:


> perhaps a split reservation


I mean, there is no such thing as a split reservation anymore, not since 2017. It’s two reservations. Maybe the resort can keep you in the same unit, maybe they can’t. You’re at the whim of the resort’s room assigner and probably won’t know your fate until check-in.


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## paxsarah

And maybe I’m not a creative thinker (I’m really not), but I can’t figure out what the big gotcha is even if you could add nights with resale points to a VIP reservation. It seems a bit Underpants Gnomes-y to me.


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## Ty1on

paxsarah said:


> And maybe I’m not a creative thinker (I’m really not), but I can’t figure out what the big gotcha is even if you could add nights with resale points to a VIP reservation. It seems a bit Underpants Gnomes-y to me.


If you want five nights, all five nights are at full points cost if this can't be done.


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## paxsarah

Ty1on said:


> If you want five nights, all five nights are at full points cost if this can't be done.


If the original scenario was that you've booked using a VIP discount and now want to add nights, then all five nights are not at full cost if this can't be done. You already have four nights at a VIP discount. If this can't be done, then you already have the 4 discounted nights, and the system will let you add one night using VIP points at a discount. If you don't have those points in the current year you can either borrow VIP points from next year or I guess rent (though I've never added a night, am not VIP so I've never used VIP discounts, and very rarely rented, so I really don't know what happens when renting to add a night during the VIP discount window). If the system is working as they've said it would, it will not even give you the option to use non-VIP points. The only way you get 5 nights at full points is if you cancel the 4 discounted nights and book 5 nights with non-VIP points.


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## Cyrus24

paxsarah said:


> If the system is working as they've said it would, it will not even give you the option to use non-VIP points. The only way you get 5 nights at full points is if you cancel the 4 discounted nights and book 5 nights with non-VIP points.


I anticipate it happening just as you suggest.  Which is fine by me.  But, I'm a 85% VIPP, 15% Resale owner who is not really looking for any loopholes.


----------



## Mr. Phil

Manzana said:


> My big question would be if you are short points on a VIP reservation could you choose to borrow points from the next Use Year if you have resale points available in same use year.


Can not borrow resale for short developer and the opposite holds within the same year. I was told anyone with developer points and less than 100,000 resale points will have a difficult time using unless for short stays, they do not qualify for discounts.


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## troy12n

Mr. Phil said:


> Can not borrow resale for short developer and the opposite holds within the same year. I was told anyone with developer points and less than 100,000 resale points will have a difficult time using unless for short stays, they do not qualify for discounts.



I think we were told you can combine retail and resale points to make a booking, but you lose any VIP privilages when you do so. Is this not accurate? 

Also what's preventing you from borrowing from a future UY to complete the transaction?


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## HitchHiker71

TUGGERs, I wanted to share what I feel is some really good news coming soon to a theatre near us.  The inability for hybrid VIP owners to combine resale/retail points for SRP/ARP reservations has finally been acknowledged and reproduced by Wyndham.  It has been intermittent which was been a major part of the challenge.  Some hybrid VIP owners have been able to book using combined resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP, others have not been able to do so.  I fall in the latter bucket myself.  The Wyndham DT team was able to reproduce the reported issue(s) and identify the required code fixes.  This fix is currently slated for the mid-January code release sprint - though there's an outside chance we may see this fix in mid-December - but I'd estimate January to be on the safe side.  

Overall - point being - the problem of hybrid VIP owners not being able to combine resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP reservation windows, unlike non-VIP hybrid owners who can do so without any issue - is going to be resolved!    This has been a long time coming for those of us who are hybrid VIP owners.


----------



## bnoble

Great news. Thanks for your work on this!


----------



## Ty1on

Mr. Phil said:


> Can not borrow resale for short developer and the opposite holds within the same year. I was told anyone with developer points and less than 100,000 resale points will have a difficult time using unless for short stays, they do not qualify for discounts.



I would guess a salesperson told you that.  The truth is that once they fix the code HitchHiker described, you can use the 100K resale points for whatever you want within its use year, you just borrow developer points within the use year to fill out the points you need (and yes, lose points discount on them).  It's true that borrowing will probably be restricted to the appropriate retail/resale lane, but "difficult time using unless for short stays" seems a bit exaggerated.


----------



## markb53

HitchHiker71 said:


> TUGGERs, I wanted to share what I feel is some really good news coming soon to a theatre near us.  The inability for hybrid VIP owners to combine resale/retail points for SRP/ARP reservations has finally been acknowledged and reproduced by Wyndham.  It has been intermittent which was been a major part of the challenge.  Some hybrid VIP owners have been able to book using combined resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP, others have not been able to do so.  I fall in the latter bucket myself.  The Wyndham DT team was able to reproduce the reported issue(s) and identify the required code fixes.  This fix is currently slated for the mid-January code release sprint - though there's an outside chance we may see this fix in mid-December - but I'd estimate January to be on the safe side.
> 
> Overall - point being - the problem of hybrid VIP owners not being able to combine resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP reservation windows, unlike non-VIP hybrid owners who can do so without any issue - is going to be resolved!    This has been a long time coming for those of us who are hybrid VIP owners.


Any word on the issue that, for Non-VIP owners that that don’t have a Jan-Dec use year, they can only deposit into the next year online. They cannot deposit into the following use year without calling in. They also can also only see one future year in the point summary and benefit summary until Jan 1st when the 2nd future use year will show up online. Too late, unfortunately, to deposit into.


----------



## HitchHiker71

HitchHiker71 said:


> TUGGERs, I wanted to share what I feel is some really good news coming soon to a theatre near us.  The inability for hybrid VIP owners to combine resale/retail points for SRP/ARP reservations has finally been acknowledged and reproduced by Wyndham.  It has been intermittent which was been a major part of the challenge.  Some hybrid VIP owners have been able to book using combined resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP, others have not been able to do so.  I fall in the latter bucket myself.  The Wyndham DT team was able to reproduce the reported issue(s) and identify the required code fixes.  This fix is currently slated for the mid-January code release sprint - though there's an outside chance we may see this fix in mid-December - but I'd estimate January to be on the safe side.
> 
> Overall - point being - the problem of hybrid VIP owners not being able to combine resale/retail points in the SRP/ARP reservation windows, unlike non-VIP hybrid owners who can do so without any issue - is going to be resolved!    This has been a long time coming for those of us who are hybrid VIP owners.



Some really good news to share resulting from the two outage windows this week - it _does _appear that the fixes were implemented for hybrid VIP owners to borrow developer points when performing a resale booking transaction in the SRP. I cannot test via ARP since I don't have like contracts in the ARP window - but SRP has been tested per the screenshots below and is working now at least for me.


----------



## Xcalibur

i'm curious how owners have found availability and VIP upgrades since this change has been implemented?  Are you able to get more frequent VIP upgrades now?  (size and discount window)


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## Mr. Phil

Eric B said:


> An important upcoming system update.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear XXXXX Family,We hope your VIP by Wyndham benefits have helped you maximize your Club Wyndham experience. As a valued Club Wyndham Plus member with Gold VIP by Wyndham benefits, it is important that you are aware of an upcoming system update that will provide a more comprehensive view of your membership and support existing VIP by Wyndham program guidelines. This system update will not impact your VIP tier status. An overview of the system changes is outlined below:Update to Your Online ExperienceIn mid-August, we will introduce a new online Benefits Summary, which will enable you to distinguish between points you have purchased directly from Club Wyndham (“VIP Eligible Points”) and points that have been acquired through the third-party resale market (“Non-VIP Eligible Points”). This distinction will help you better understand the points and VIP benefits associated with your membership.
> 
> Once this system update takes place, your VIP Eligible Points will continue to unlock the VIP benefits associated with your VIP tier. The system will award VIP benefits only to VIP Eligible Points. As a reminder, in accordance with the VIP by Wyndham program guidelines, VIP benefits are not applicable to Non-VIP Eligible Points.
> 
> The VIP benefits that will be available to VIP Eligible Points will include:
> 
> •VIP Suite Upgrade Opt-In  •Points Discounts  •Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority  •Points Deposit - More Time To Extend Points  •More Time To Convert To Maintenance Dollars  •Additional Housekeeping Credits, based on VIP tier  •Complimentary Reservation Transactions, based on VIP tier  •Option To Request Specific Suites  •Early Access To Margaritaville Vacation Club Resorts
> With this system enhancement, we will balance your account for the current Use Year and adjust benefits according to whether your reservation was made with VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points. This reconciliation will only apply to reservations in the current Use Year.
> 
> As you adjust to this system update we are pleased to offer some options to help you maximize your vacation opportunities. Complimentary points will be deposited into your next Use Year when the system update takes place mid-August. Additionally, from the August system update through Dec. 31, 2021, you will have the option to convert your Non-VIP Eligible Points to maintenance fees or utilize the Points Deposit Feature to move your Non-VIP Eligible Points into a future Use Year.Understanding the Benefits SummaryThe new online Benefits Summary will streamline your view of your individual points and benefits and give you more control over how you use your membership.
> 
> Upon booking a resort reservation or making another type of transaction on your Club Wyndham website, you will be able to choose whether you would like to use your VIP Eligible Points or Non-VIP Eligible Points ─ you can apply VIP benefits for the reservation(s) where they can have the greatest impact. The Benefits Summary will update automatically to reflect your current points and benefits for each points type.
> 
> This new tool will put you in the driver’s seat as you check destinations off your bucket list.
> 
> This system update will help enforce a longstanding rule, as well as provide greater transparency into your points and associated benefits, while giving you the control to prioritize your vacations. By better preserving the exclusivity and value of the VIP by Wyndham program, we continue to ensure your VIP tier helps you unlock fantastic benefits and elevate your vacations.
> 
> For more information on the Benefits Summary and this system update, please visit your Club Wyndham website, and sign up for an upcoming education session. You may also reach a dedicated support team by calling 844-991-0921.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Your Club Wyndham Management Team


It is no big deal, not worth getting into panic mode. I have both and used the both. Only issue is the reservations. However, when you check-in and show them your VIP Card, they give you the benefits.


----------



## Eric B

Mr. Phil said:


> It is no big deal, not worth getting into panic mode. I have both and used the both. Only issue is the reservations. However, when you check-in and show them your VIP Card, they give you the benefits.



Thanks; I’m pretty much over it from last July when I shared this with all.


----------



## paxsarah

Mr. Phil said:


> It is no big deal, not worth getting into panic mode. I have both and used the both. Only issue is the reservations. However, when you check-in and show them your VIP Card, they give you the benefits.


Just to point out that 7 months and 24 pages of discussion has ensued since the post you quoted. I'm pretty sure most hybrid VIPs have moved past panic mode and through at least several (if not all) of the stages of grief since then.


----------



## paxsarah

Mr. Phil said:


> However, when you check-in and show them your VIP Card, they give you *the benefits*.


Although, this does raise the question, what VIP onsite benefits remain anyway? Early/dedicated check-in. Anything else? The big issue was always the reservation-based benefits - discounts, upgrades, housekeeping, reservation transactions.


----------



## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> Just to point out that 7 months and 24 pages of discussion has ensued since the post you quoted. I'm pretty sure most hybrid VIPs have moved past panic mode and through at least several (if not all) of the stages of grief since then.



Was it the stages of grief or the 12 steps we were supposed to go through?  I had gotten as far as the apologizing one and don’t want to have to start over….


----------



## Cyrus24

I got over it pretty quickly and now that I’m no longer a Hybrid owner, life is excellent.  I don’t see much improvement in regard to getting discounts.  I think people are finally traveling and using excess points.


----------



## 55plus

Xcalibur said:


> i'm curious how owners have found availability and VIP upgrades since this change has been implemented?  Are you able to get more frequent VIP upgrades now?  (size and discount window)


Since the change I haven't had any problem getting VIP discounts or upgraded. We travel 5 to 6 months in Florida during the winter months. It's during off season so discounts and upgrades plentiful.


----------



## bnoble

Eric B said:


> Was it the stages of grief or the 12 steps we were supposed to go through?  I had gotten as far as the apologizing one and don’t want to have to start over….


If you are painstaking about this phase of your development, you will be amazed before you are halfway through!


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> Some really good news to share resulting from the two outage windows this week - it _does _appear that the fixes were implemented for hybrid VIP owners to borrow developer points when performing a resale booking transaction in the SRP. I cannot test via ARP since I don't have like contracts in the ARP window - but SRP has been tested per the screenshots below and is working now at least for me.


I appreciate the work / effort.  But, how many people did this effect?  I struggle with prioritization. They managed to implement hybrid accounts, etc, and fix this.  And yet here we are, 2 years with the covid version of the website, still viewing 3 reservations per page and with no transaction details / reporting history. No financial reporting. One might think this website is working as intended and there is not desire to improve certain areas?


----------



## Sandi Bo

Xcalibur said:


> i'm curious how owners have found availability and VIP upgrades since this change has been implemented?  Are you able to get more frequent VIP upgrades now?  (size and discount window)


If anything, less upgrades than ever. That surprises me (if owner priority were really a thing) it should be better.

Finding reservations, about the same as always. I booked Clearwater in the last few weeks for my birthday this month, 2 rooms. Very similar experience as last time I went 2 years ago. Needed 2 rooms, watched for cancellations and found them. No upgrades this year (shouldn't there be more not less) but happy with what I found. I did book my brother last month and got an auto upgrade. No, I don't credit owner priority for the rooms I was able to find.  I credit myself for persistently checking for cancellations.

I noticed you could book a 2 bedroom at Ocean Walk for the Daytona 500. Came up at 15 days. As they always have. No owner priority at Ocean Walk anyways.  So, meh, again, no credit where credit is not due. I'm watching for Bike Week for my brother and noticed the Daytona 500 (a bit of a decision - that or Clearwater ).

I still say Wyndham is doing something with rooms and we haven't figured it out (or people in the know aren't saying). 3 and 4 bedroom units were taken out of inventory at Bonnet Creek around October (through November of 2022, nothing on the owner website).  I had a 1 bedroom I did an instant upgrade to a 2 bedroom. At checkin was given a 3 bedroom. Hmmmm, makes one take pause.  (LOL, here take one of these 3 bedrooms that isn't showing available on the website).

Family still enjoying Bentley Brook in their usual fashion. Was able to book them Christmas week (as always). A couple rooms over NYE (one even booked on the 31st). Going for short stays during the week or catching some ski weekends last minute. It is harder to find this year, I was thinking because people want to be out and about and outside. Then heard there was a flood in one of the buildings over MLK weekend (sprinkler issue). That helps to explain things a bit more. You just never know what's going on and always an ah ha moment when you hear something (like a maintenance issue). 

Wyndham knows what they are doing. We can guess all we want. I imagine Owner Priority is a good sales tool and good PR for owners that believe the BS. But actually doing something good for me, I think not. I'm also pretty much over it, just have to remember to check the list once on a while and be cognizant of the black out dates. And chuckle every time I see or hear 'Wyndham Cares'.


----------



## paxsarah

Sandi Bo said:


> No upgrades this year (shouldn't there be more not less)


Should there be? If Wyndham’s goal was to reduce the number of units booked for rentals and increase the number of units booked for owners’ own use (and friends and family within the guest limitations), and if they were successful, I would posit we used to see more cancellations (and potential for upgradable units) when renters were more active, and that an owner booking for their own use would be more likely to hold and use a unit. You’ve also got more points in the system that are subject to resale points deposit deadlines (ie the first 3 months) rather than extended VIP deposit deadlines, also a disincentive to canceling after a certain point in the year. I could be wrong about the booking patterns here, but I’m not sure there was anything to suggest upgrades would become more plentiful.


----------



## kanerf

I stay frequently at Old Town Alexandria and I get upgraded virtually every time from the smallest one bedroom to a two bedroom usually.  This happens with developer and resale stays.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Why does this have a 2022 date in the title.  Isn't this mostly about changes from July of 2021. 

Anyone?


----------



## paxsarah

Sandy VDH said:


> Why does this have a 2022 date in the title.  Isn't this mostly about changes from July of 2021.
> 
> Anyone?


I looked up the cached version and it looks like it was always a typo (that is, cached versions from prior to this latest bump also say 2022 in the title) - and you're the first person in 25 pages to notice it!


----------



## Ty1on

Yes, it was always written as 2022.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> I appreciate the work / effort.  But, how many people did this effect?  I struggle with prioritization. They managed to implement hybrid accounts, etc, and fix this.  And yet here we are, 2 years with the covid version of the website, still viewing 3 reservations per page and with no transaction details / reporting history. No financial reporting. One might think this website is working as intended and there is not desire to improve certain areas?



As has been discussed ad nauseum within this thread - the entire change affected less than 1% of owners - and considerably less than 1% of VIP owners - which is why we should not expect Wyndham (or any other business) to prioritize such an outlier percentage of their ownership/customer base.  With that in mind, I think we can agree that we're not happy with the progress made on the current website - nor are we happy with the progress made on a number of our bugs/regressions/enhancements that we are tracking that remain outstanding for coming up on two years in May 2022.  I'd also state that we're all better off for having at least some progress made that would otherwise likely not have been made at all without our efforts - so it's worthwhile what we are doing on some level.  I think I've also said enough times now that there are certain features/functions that simply aren't going to happen for various reasons - because they have little to no impact on the vast majority of owners.  

When you say financial reporting, what are you referring to exactly?  The loans that owners take out against their timeshare purchase?  I know that's still an item that remains outstanding.  If you're referring to your financials for your timeshare MFs and program fees - that has been in place for many months now.  I can see it under the My Ownership page.  Is something missing on this page that we need to draw attention to?  If so, please let me know.


----------



## HitchHiker71

kanerf said:


> I stay frequently at Old Town Alexandria and I get upgraded virtually every time from the smallest one bedroom to a two bedroom usually.  This happens with developer and resale stays.



Resale stays should not be upgraded since VIP benefits do not apply - the upgrade option should not even display when making the reservation.  Are you saying it does display?  Or are you saying you find out when you get to the resort and check in that there's a two bedroom available?


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> Why does this have a 2022 date in the title.  Isn't this mostly about changes from July of 2021.
> 
> Anyone?



Thanks for pointing this out - thread title edited to display the proper date.


----------



## Ty1on

kanerf said:


> I stay frequently at Old Town Alexandria and I get upgraded virtually every time from the smallest one bedroom to a two bedroom usually.  This happens with developer and resale stays.



Have you received an upgrade on a stay booked with retail points after last July?


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> Have you received an upgrade on a stay booked with retail points after last July?



This is one of our most frequented resorts for weekend getaways.  I've received either an instant upgrade (within 45 days as a VIPG owner) or a requested upgrade almost every time at OTA over the past two years during the pandemic - I'd say we've been to OTA six times over the past two years for weekend getaways (Fri-Mon).  It's starting to get more difficult now though - as more owners are starting to vacation now that the pandemic is easing up a bit.


----------



## kanerf

HitchHiker71 said:


> Resale stays should not be upgraded since VIP benefits do not apply - the upgrade option should not even display when making the reservation.  Are you saying it does display?  Or are you saying you find out when you get to the resort and check in that there's a two bedroom available?


I made most of these reservations prior to the change and as far as upgrades are concerned, they have been getting upgraded 60 days or so out just like the developer reservations.


----------



## kanerf

Ty1on said:


> Have you received an upgrade on a stay booked with retail points after last July?


Yes.


----------



## kanerf

kanerf said:


> Yes.


So looking at a stay that I booked on 7/10/21.  It was resale booked for 03/07-03/11 and it has been upgraded from 1 Bdrm to 2 Bdrm Deluxe.  At Old Town there are two categories of One Bedroom, standard and deluxe.  This was booked into standard, which does not have a full kitchen.


----------



## Ty1on

kanerf said:


> So looking at a stay that I booked on 7/10/21.  It was resale booked for 03/07-03/11 and it has been upgraded from 1 Bdrm to 2 Bdrm Deluxe.  At Old Town there are two categories of One Bedroom, standard and deluxe.  This was booked into standard, which does not have a full kitchen.



7/10 was before the change.  I'm curious whether anyone has booked retail after the change and received an upgrade.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> 7/10 was before the change.  I'm curious whether anyone has booked retail after the change and received an upgrade.



Yes I have.  We stayed in OTA the weekend of 1/7/2022 - 1/10/2022.  I booked this reservation on 11/10/2021 via developer points and requested an automatic upgrade (since I was outside of the 45 day VIPG instant upgrade period).  I received an automatic upgrade to a two bedroom deluxe on this reservation via the automatic upgrade process later in November 2021.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes I have.  We stayed in OTA the weekend of 1/7/2022 - 1/10/2022.  I booked this reservation on 11/10/2021 via developer points and requested an automatic upgrade (since I was outside of the 45 day VIPG instant upgrade period).  I received an automatic upgrade to a two bedroom deluxe on this reservation via the automatic upgrade process later in November 2021.
> 
> View attachment 46525


Im sorry, I meant resale points, though I am glad to hear that dev points are working as designed.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> Im sorry, I meant resale points, though I am glad to hear that dev points are working as designed.



Gotcha - I'm not even seeing the option when making resale reservations - so if this happens - it's definitely not by design LOL.


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> As has been discussed ad nauseum within this thread - the entire change affected less than 1% of owners - and considerably less than 1% of VIP owners - which is why we should not expect Wyndham (or any other business) to prioritize such an outlier percentage of their ownership/customer base.  With that in mind, I think we can agree that we're not happy with the progress made on the current website - nor are we happy with the progress made on a number of our bugs/regressions/enhancements that we are tracking that remain outstanding for coming up on two years in May 2022.  I'd also state that we're all better off for having at least some progress made that would otherwise likely not have been made at all without our efforts - so it's worthwhile what we are doing on some level.  I think I've also said enough times now that there are certain features/functions that simply aren't going to happen for various reasons - because they have little to no impact on the vast majority of owners.
> When you say financial reporting, what are you referring to exactly?  The loans that owners take out against their timeshare purchase?  I know that's still an item that remains outstanding.  If you're referring to your financials for your timeshare MFs and program fees - that has been in place for many months now.  I can see it under the My Ownership page.  Is something missing on this page that we need to draw attention to?  If so, please let me know.


I don't think we're on the same page, and I apologize if I offended you. My thought was, and still is, I can't imagine too many people have hybrid accounts, I can't imagine it being a priority at all. In my head, if they never fixed booking both in the same reservation, then once a year (maybe) if I needed to mix resale and developer points, I'd just do 2 transactions. If that is what you are saying was discussed ad nauseum, it sure wasn't me. If it was people asking for transaction details, which is what I meant to imply I would have prioritized, I respectfully disagree that effects less than 1% of owners.

Financials? I am doing better myself at tracking the information I need. I don't have a loan but have read some interesting comments from people that do. I am thankful I don't have to deal with that in any way shape or form. As far as assessments due, today I needed my balance and to know recent payments. It was not a simple call and I could hear them pounding on their calculator because the information was not available on a screen. In the past I made special requests for detailed ledgers for some previous years. A week or two later in the mail, I received hard copies of the annual assessment (honestly don't remember if it was the beginning of the year or end of the year, which btw is different if you buy or sell any contracts ). I don't think it's unreasonable to be able to view details of transactions, whether it's points or money. Neither is possible. I won't mention it again, I'm tracking what I need myself. Thank goodness for excel.

I don't think the system provides what it should to owners but I'll try to quit saying so (and we can all act surprised again when something like the issue of getting logged out countless times is mentioned again). I've learned to work around the things most painful for me and am able to get done what I can. People have definitely stopped complaining and I'll do my best to as well.

I appreciate your time and effort and getting done what you have with Wyndham and will keep my opinions to myself (at least publicly on TUG).


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you're referring to your financials for your timeshare MFs and program fees - that has been in place for many months now. I can see it under the My Ownership page. Is something missing on this page that we need to draw attention to? If so, please let me know.


Although the annual assessment amounts are on the ownership page, there's no payment history. For instance, I recently received a balance due notice in the mail for several months of 2021 maintenance fees for a resale contract that hit my account at the end of December (the tangent being that apparently Wyndham _will_ transfer a contract with a balance due, and I was just too weary from the fight to get the points actually deposited to call and question it). I was able to pay it online, but nowhere in my account online is there a record of that one-time payment (separate from the monthly autopay), nor is there a record of past monthly payments that could show me when my payment amount changed. Obviously, I could check my credit card statements, but it's Wyndham I'm making payments to.

While I don't find this to be a terribly major personal inconvenience as I have a pretty simple ownership, it is sort of a glaring omission when compared with most other companies that do business online.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> I don't think we're on the same page, and I apologize if I offended you. My thought was, and still is, I can't imagine too many people have hybrid accounts, I can't imagine it being a priority at all. In my head, if they never fixed booking both in the same reservation, then once a year (maybe) if I needed to mix resale and developer points, I'd just do 2 transactions. If that is what you are saying was discussed ad nauseum, it sure wasn't me. If it was people asking for transaction details, which is what I meant to imply I would have prioritized, I respectfully disagree that effects less than 1% of owners.



No offense taken I assure you.   I'm a hard person to offend - I've been called a "Mr. Spock" type of person on multiple occasions as I don't get emotional about much really. You're correct that VIP hybrid accounts are less than 1% of overall ownership. Resale ownership only stood at about 5% of overall ownership a year ago. We've shared the numbers here previously so I won't rehash them again. The scope of this thread is for hybrid owners. Trust me I've heard a LOT of chatter about not being able to combine retail/resale points in the SRP from many hybrid owners. I'm glad you don't count yourself among them - but they have been a noisy bunch. 

Transaction details is a whole other ball of wax that impacts all of us quite frankly.  I don't go looking in my Tx history much - but I went looking for something recently and that's when I realized that they made changes somewhere along the line to limit the columnar search capabilities.  Earlier on you could choose more selection criteria - not sure why this was deprecated - but I'll go chase this item and add it to our list as a regression.  



> Financials? I am doing better myself at tracking the information I need. I don't have a loan but have read some interesting comments from people that do. I am thankful I don't have to deal with that in any way shape or form. As far as assessments due, today I needed my balance and to know recent payments. It was not a simple call and I could hear them pounding on their calculator because the information was not available on a screen. In the past I made special requests for detailed ledgers for some previous years. A week or two later in the mail, I received hard copies of the annual assessment (honestly don't remember if it was the beginning of the year or end of the year, which btw is different if you buy or sell any contracts ). I don't think it's unreasonable to be able to view details of transactions, whether it's points or money. Neither is possible. I won't mention it again, I'm tracking what I need myself. Thank goodness for excel.



Agreed - the current assessment doesn't list any billing activities.  It would be nice if this was included in our Tx history as a category that we could sort against I think.  These are billing transactions after all right?  Sure it'd be nice if it showed up under the Assessment area as well.  I'll add this to our enhancement list.  

The loans topic is supposedly coming later this year from what I understand - but I've never had any loans for timeshares - so this won't help me nor will I be able to test this new functionality whenever it arrives.



> I don't think the system provides what it should to owners but I'll try to quit saying so (and we can all act surprised again when something like the issue of getting logged out countless times is mentioned again). I've learned to work around the things most painful for me and am able to get done what I can. People have definitely stopped complaining and I'll do my best to as well.
> 
> I appreciate your time and effort and getting done what you have with Wyndham and will keep my opinions to myself (at least publicly on TUG).



I agree we've got a long way to go.  Let's keep up the efforts - we've made enough noise at certain times to get things fixed and to get some functions back in place that really mattered (like the monthly availability calendar for example).  I need to update and republish our current tracking sheet - and make it a sticky here in the Wyndham forum - that way it's always on so to speak - and we can point anyone who wants to log new issues to that thread on an ongoing basis.  And please don't view it as complaining - it's not complaining - it's pointing out what is and is not working.  Sometimes it might seem as though I'm pushing back - but what I'm often doing is relaying information in response based on conversations or feedback we've received during our travels.  Take it for what you will - I figure it's worthwhile sharing the perspectives and generating debate and conversation on what's best for us as owners from a feature request perspective.  Please keep the feedback coming in other words.


----------



## Don40

Do you think Wyndham will go back to booking a single nite stay, that is one feature I am most upset that they took away from us.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Don40 said:


> Do you think Wyndham will go back to booking a single nite stay, that is one feature I am most upset that they took away from us.



I queried Wyndham back in the fall on this topic when Worldmark reintroduced one night stays. I was told that Wyndham owners have not provided any real feedback via the website mechanisms in place which is the primary feedback mechanism they pay the most attention to. Yes our back channel feedback helps but it’s really complimentary to the website feedback mechanism. If Wyndham owners want one night stays to return - we need to literally be making this complaint via the website feedback mechanism every time we use the website. If enough owners do so - it’ll get enough attention to be put on their radar. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## paxsarah

Another small sliver of hope is that while some benefits were simply removed (eg VIP midweek clean and tidy), 1-night stays are still published in the newest directory although not currently active. Keep submitting that feedback - there must be some reason they didn't delete it entirely.


----------



## r4rab

With the new housekeeping rules/charges 1-night stays may become prohibitively expensive unless you are a grandfathered VIP with unlimited HK.


----------



## paxsarah

r4rab said:


> With the new housekeeping rules/charges 1-night stays may become prohibitively expensive unless you are a grandfathered VIP with unlimited HK.


For the owner or for Wyndham? As a non-VIP owner I've got enough free HK credits that if I want to take one or two 1-night stays in a given year to balance with my larger bookings, I won't run out. I wouldn't be doing it every weekend. For this year I've got 178k points remaining and 5 HK credits, so I'm good. I'd love to make a 1-night stay in April but instead I'm using credit card points on a hotel. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

If for Wyndham, the prohibitive expense would come largely from those with grandfathered unlimited HK. It may be a staffing issue still, but normally if I get X number of free HK, Wyndham should be prepared to accommodate X stays from me. In 2021 and likely in 2022 I'll have left unused HK on the table. It shouldn't really matter if I take one 3-night and one 1-night stay, or two 2-night stays.


----------



## r4rab

paxsarah said:


> For the owner or for Wyndham? As a non-VIP owner I've got enough free HK credits that if I want to take one or two 1-night stays in a given year to balance with my larger bookings, I won't run out. I wouldn't be doing it every weekend. For this year I've got 178k points remaining and 5 HK credits, so I'm good. I'd love to make a 1-night stay in April but instead I'm using credit card points on a hotel. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> If for Wyndham, the prohibitive expense would come largely from those with grandfathered unlimited HK. It may be a staffing issue still, but normally if I get X number of free HK, Wyndham should be prepared to accommodate X stays from me. In 2021 and likely in 2022 I'll have left unused HK on the table. It shouldn't really matter if I take one 3-night and one 1-night stay, or two 2-night stays.



I think it could get expensive for the owner. Depending on how many 1-night stays and "shorter" (2-3 night) stays someone makes I could see them easily using up their free HK credits.


----------



## paxsarah

r4rab said:


> I think it could get expensive for the owner. Depending on how many 1-night stays and "shorter" (2-3 night) stays someone makes I could see them easily using up their free HK credits.


I've taken stays of many lengths, from one night on up, and never run out of housekeeping. It's not really Wyndham's concern whether it's expensive for the owner in deciding to reinstate 1-night stays or not. Each of us can manage our points accordingly.


----------



## r4rab

paxsarah said:


> I've taken stays of many lengths, from one night on up, and never run out of housekeeping. It's not really Wyndham's concern whether it's expensive for the owner in deciding to reinstate 1-night stays or not. Each of us can manage our points accordingly.


Agreed


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> Although, this does raise the question, what VIP onsite benefits remain anyway? Early/dedicated check-in. Anything else? The big issue was always the reservation-based benefits - discounts, upgrades, housekeeping, reservation transactions.



Lake Marion always gives us a bottle of wine.  A couple places leave a little box of bonbons.  Some places have a free newspaper but you have to go get it.  Emerald Grande has some really nice offerings but we've never used any of them for various reasons.

Even early check-in is shaky -- it is and always has been an "if available" feature.  If you call the resort and advise of an early arrival, you have a chance.  If you just show up at 2 PM, you probably don't.

I think it was National Harbor that told us, "We don't do that here" shortly after VIP early arrival became a thing.  I must admit that National Harbor is twenty minutes from home and is one of two resorts (with OTA) that we have any chance of arriving early.  VIP early arrival is not a benefit we get much use of.


----------



## chapjim

kanerf said:


> I stay frequently at Old Town Alexandria and I get upgraded virtually every time from the smallest one bedroom to a two bedroom usually.  This happens with developer and resale stays.



Are these instant upgrades, upgrades to an existing reservation, or upgrades upon arrival?  Obviously, the resale stays are 'on arrival.'


----------



## kanerf

chapjim said:


> Are these instant upgrades, upgrades to an existing reservation, or upgrades upon arrival?  Obviously, the resale stays are 'on arrival.'


Upgrades to an existing reservation.


----------



## chapjim

kanerf said:


> Upgrades to an existing reservation.



Your reservations made with resale points are getting upgraded?  That used to be common but since Wyndham started splitting points into developer and resale, it shouldn't happen at all.

Currently, I use my resale points when there is no possibility of an upgrade -- 2BR Deluxe units at Royal Vista, for example.  There's no larger or more desirable unit there.


----------



## kanerf

These reservations were made in July, before the change.


----------



## paxsarah

markb53 said:


> Any word on the issue that, for Non-VIP owners that that don’t have a Jan-Dec use year, they can only deposit into the next year online. They cannot deposit into the following use year without calling in. They also can also only see one future year in the point summary and benefit summary until Jan 1st when the 2nd future use year will show up online. Too late, unfortunately, to deposit into.


@HitchHiker71 

Sorry to dredge this thread back up, but this remains an issue based on a post I saw on Facebook today. Non-VIP and some lower-VIP owners with non-January use years are unable to do a points deposit online into the second year. They have to call and pay $49 instead of $39, and they're being told by owner care that it's the case for everyone and oh well. But it's not the case for everyone - just for owners with the wrong combination of use year and VIP level. This should either be fixed so owners can do it online, or owner care should be informed that it's a glitch, not a feature, and waive the extra fee.


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## Sandi Bo

paxsarah said:


> @HitchHiker71
> 
> Sorry to dredge this thread back up, but this remains an issue based on a post I saw on Facebook today. Non-VIP and some lower-VIP owners with non-January use years are unable to do a points deposit online into the second year. They have to call and pay $49 instead of $39, and they're being told by owner care that it's the case for everyone and oh well. But it's not the case for everyone - just for owners with the wrong combination of use year and VIP level. This should either be fixed so owners can do it online, or owner care should be informed that it's a glitch, not a feature, and waive the extra fee.


On the other hand... have you ever held while they adjusted a fee, if they do agree you shouldn't be charged?  I would figure about an hour a call to Wyndham. Sometimes it's worth eating the extra fees they charge you for calling in. Wrong, you bet. But time these days seems more and more valuable to me (as wait times at most corporations just gets worse and worse).


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> @HitchHiker71
> 
> Sorry to dredge this thread back up, but this remains an issue based on a post I saw on Facebook today. Non-VIP and some lower-VIP owners with non-January use years are unable to do a points deposit online into the second year. They have to call and pay $49 instead of $39, and they're being told by owner care that it's the case for everyone and oh well. But it's not the case for everyone - just for owners with the wrong combination of use year and VIP level. This should either be fixed so owners can do it online, or owner care should be informed that it's a glitch, not a feature, and waive the extra fee.



If it's not the case for everyone - can we narrow the scope of the reported issue to a specific use case scenario(s)?  What is the "wrong" combination?  Any details you can share would help...


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> If it's not the case for everyone - can we narrow the scope of the reported issue to a specific use case scenario(s)?  What is the "wrong" combination?  Any details you can share would help...


So the reason it happens is that future use year points are awarded around Jan 1 each year, regardless of use year, so they're showing up in your account anywhere from 15-24 months in advance. For January, this is fine. Say it's January 1, 2022 and I have a January use year, non-VIP. My Jan 2023 UY points were awarded a year ago, and my Jan 2024 use year points are awarded today. Both of those buckets exist, and I can deposit forward into either of them for the next three months.

Say It's January 1, 2022, and I have an April use year, non-VIP. My 2023 UY points (which actually start April 2022) were awarded a year ago. Today my 2024 UY points (which start April 2023) are awarded in my account. Wait 3 months to the start of my use year and I want to deposit some points forward. The only two buckets available in my account are the current 2023 bucket (ending 3/31/2023), and the immediate future 2024 bucket (ending 3/31/2024). I don't have the second year 2025 bucket (4/1/24-3/31/25) because those points haven't been awarded yet. So the online system only lets me deposit one year into the future, but not two years. (For some reason, the phone staff are able to do it.)

Going through that scenario for various types of owners, this will affect non-VIPs with any non-January use year. If my math/logic is correct, it would also affect Bronze or Silver VIP with April or July use years, or Gold with an April use year. For the VIPs, if the tail end of their points deposit window extends into the next calendar year, they can simply wait (which they're probably doing anyway) and deposit after January 1 when the following year's bucket is created. (So Bronze/Silver with October, Gold with July or October, and all Platinum and Founders are fine because they have some time at the end of their points deposit window to make the deposit two years out.)


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## markb53

paxsarah said:


> So the reason it happens is that future use year points are awarded around Jan 1 each year, regardless of use year, so they're showing up in your account anywhere from 15-24 months in advance. For January, this is fine. Say it's January 1, 2022 and I have a January use year, non-VIP. My Jan 2023 UY points were awarded a year ago, and my Jan 2024 use year points are awarded today. Both of those buckets exist, and I can deposit forward into either of them for the next three months.
> 
> Say It's January 1, 2022, and I have an April use year, non-VIP. My 2023 UY points (which actually start April 2022) were awarded a year ago. Today my 2024 UY points (which start April 2023) are awarded in my account. Wait 3 months to the start of my use year and I want to deposit some points forward. The only two buckets available in my account are the current 2023 bucket (ending 3/31/2023), and the immediate future 2024 bucket (ending 3/31/2024). I don't have the second year 2025 bucket (4/1/24-3/31/25) because those points haven't been awarded yet. So the online system only lets me deposit one year into the future, but not two years. (For some reason, the phone staff are able to do it.)
> 
> Going through that scenario for various types of owners, this will affect non-VIPs with any non-January use year. If my math/logic is correct, it would also affect Bronze or Silver VIP with April or July use years, or Gold with an April use year. For the VIPs, if the tail end of their points deposit window extends into the next calendar year, they can simply wait (which they're probably doing anyway) and deposit after January 1 when the following year's bucket is created. (So Bronze/Silver with October, Gold with July or October, and all Platinum and Founders are fine because they have some time at the end of their points deposit window to make the deposit two years out.)



Here is a screenshot of what it looks like. I can’t show you the deposit screen because my friend that has this problem has no points left in this year to deposit. But you can see on the point summary page that there are no points in the current year 203,000 points in 07/1/2023-06/30/2024. But there should be 203,000 in 07/1/2024 - 06/30/2025. The second future will show up where they are supposed to on 1/1/23 when it is too late to deposit. I have a calendar year use year and I can seen next year and the following year. When we called Wyndham she said that she could see both future years just fine and would be happy to deposit points for $49.00.


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> So the reason it happens is that future use year points are awarded around Jan 1 each year, regardless of use year, so they're showing up in your account anywhere from 15-24 months in advance. For January, this is fine. Say it's January 1, 2022 and I have a January use year, non-VIP. My Jan 2023 UY points were awarded a year ago, and my Jan 2024 use year points are awarded today. Both of those buckets exist, and I can deposit forward into either of them for the next three months.
> 
> Say It's January 1, 2022, and I have an April use year, non-VIP. My 2023 UY points (which actually start April 2022) were awarded a year ago. Today my 2024 UY points (which start April 2023) are awarded in my account. Wait 3 months to the start of my use year and I want to deposit some points forward. The only two buckets available in my account are the current 2023 bucket (ending 3/31/2023), and the immediate future 2024 bucket (ending 3/31/2024). I don't have the second year 2025 bucket (4/1/24-3/31/25) because those points haven't been awarded yet. So the online system only lets me deposit one year into the future, but not two years. (For some reason, the phone staff are able to do it.)
> 
> Going through that scenario for various types of owners, this will affect non-VIPs with any non-January use year. If my math/logic is correct, it would also affect Bronze or Silver VIP with April or July use years, or Gold with an April use year. For the VIPs, if the tail end of their points deposit window extends into the next calendar year, they can simply wait (which they're probably doing anyway) and deposit after January 1 when the following year's bucket is created. (So Bronze/Silver with October, Gold with July or October, and all Platinum and Founders are fine because they have some time at the end of their points deposit window to make the deposit two years out.)



Sarah,

Got it. I’m slammed this week at work and am traveling all of next week on business. If someone could convert this ask into the following format:

*Issue type:*  Regression 

*Problem statement:*

Concise problem statement here


*Steps to reproduce:*

Steps listed here 


*Proposed resolution:*

Provide the ability to utilize the deposit future use year points function for all use year scenarios currently in circulation for Wyndham owners. 

Try to be as concise as is possible. Many thanks in advance! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Sarah,
> 
> Got it. I’m slammed this week at work and am traveling all of next week on business. If someone could convert this ask into the following format:
> 
> *Issue type:*  Regression
> 
> *Problem statement:*
> 
> Concise problem statement here
> 
> 
> *Steps to reproduce:*
> 
> Steps listed here
> 
> 
> *Proposed resolution:*
> 
> Provide the ability to utilize the deposit future use year points function for all use year scenarios currently in circulation for Wyndham owners.
> 
> Try to be as concise as is possible. Many thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Issue type:* Regression

*Problem statement:*

Certain owners with non-January use years are unable to use the points deposit feature online to move points into the second future year out (and can only deposit to the immediate future year). They must call and thus pay a higher fee to deposit into the second future year. All January owners and certain VIP non-January owners do not have this problem and can complete all points deposit transactions online. This discrepancy seems to be related to the awarding of future use year points on/around January 1 regardless of use year start date.

*Steps to reproduce:*

This will be experienced by any owner with a non-January use year whose points deposit window does not extend into the following calendar year. Thus it affects all non-VIPs with non-January use years. Also, Silver and Bronze VIPs with April or July use years, and gold VIPs with an April use year. When attempting to use points deposit online, those owners will only see one option, the immediate future use year. Other owners will see two choices of use year.

*Proposed resolution:*

Provide the ability to utilize the deposit future use year points function for all use year scenarios currently in circulation for Wyndham owners. Until a fix is implemented, allow affected owners to pay the lower online points deposit fee when calling in to complete the deposit.


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## rws3654

We have a resale contract from years ago and are being told at owners education that we are forfeiting option to buy developer contact to get us into a lot of other programs of value.  

Any advice?


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## Eric B

rws3654 said:


> We have a resale contract from years ago and are being told at owners education that we are forfeiting option to buy developer contact to get us into a lot of other programs of value.
> 
> Any advice?



"Owners education" events are really just sales presentations. They will tell you whatever it takes to persuade you to buy. There will always be another option to buy developer contracts in the future and the programs of value will most likely be worth less than what they want you to pay for them - otherwise they would not be willing to sell them. Bottom line advice is tell them "thank you very much for the educational opportunity" and leave with your gift.


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## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> Did anyone happen to actually watch the video and/or look at the splash screen graphic: - highlighted in the red rectangle below.  Kinda ironic showing a Rental Points bucket isn't it?
> 
> *View attachment 37704*


I've never thought it was a good description of what we're doing - renting points from Wyndham.  But I think the rules are you can rent (one time use) points at the $12/10000 up to the number of VIP points you own? Is that correct or can anyone 'rent points'?   

I have rented and my number still shows I have 100% of my points left (that is what that number is for me - the number of developer points owned / the number of developer points owned, so I'm wrong - or is the benefits summary wrong?  

What is that number? LOL


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## Eric B

Sandi Bo said:


> I've never thought it was a good description of what we're doing - renting points from Wyndham.  But I think the rules are you can rent (one time use) points at the $12/10000 up to the number of VIP points you own? Is that correct or can anyone 'rent points'?
> 
> I have rented and my number still shows I have 100% of my points left (that is what that number is for me - the number of developer points owned / the number of developer points owned, so I'm wrong - or is the benefits summary wrong?
> 
> What is that number? LOL



It had been a while since I looked at this thread, but I don't believe the rental ability is limited to VIP points. The program guidelines allow you to rent whether or not you are a VIP, just an owner, or a resale owner. The limitations are for renting in the SRP up to the amount to complete the last night's cost for the stay and for renting in the ERP up to the amount of points you own excluding PICs and bonus contracts(cumulatively for the year, though it's not well phrased). That's laid out on page 318 of the current directory.

The counter that shows up for me is keyed to the number of developer (VIP-eligible) points I own. I believe that is intended to track the ERP usage limit because the rented points get the discounted reservation costs for VIPs when used in the discount window. I've rented points in the past to make up a small number needed for a reservation that I ultimately canceled anyway and can't remember if it was before or after the change was implemented, so don't have any notion of whether or not the counter decremented. I do know that the option to rent shows up when I make a resale reservation, though.


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## rws3654

Eric B said:


> "Owners education" events are really just sales presentations. They will tell you whatever it takes to persuade you to buy. There will always be another option to buy developer contracts in the future and the programs of value will most likely be worth less than what they want you to pay for them - otherwise they would not be willing to sell them. Bottom line advice is tell them "thank you very much for the educational opportunity" and leave with your gift.


We walked, and they told us that our account has been “dispositioned” based on the new rules for resale points.   Not even sure what that means.  They did admit it will not impact how we are currently using our points.   It does seem that they alternate now between trying to sell us that deeds are better one time and buying into CWA trust the next.


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## Eric B

rws3654 said:


> Not even sure what that means.



They probably weren't sure what it means either, but figured it sounded scary and might motivate you to buy.


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## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> *Issue type:* Regression
> 
> *Problem statement:*
> 
> Certain owners with non-January use years are unable to use the points deposit feature online to move points into the second future year out (and can only deposit to the immediate future year). They must call and thus pay a higher fee to deposit into the second future year. All January owners and certain VIP non-January owners do not have this problem and can complete all points deposit transactions online. This discrepancy seems to be related to the awarding of future use year points on/around January 1 regardless of use year start date.
> 
> *Steps to reproduce:*
> 
> This will be experienced by any owner with a non-January use year whose points deposit window does not extend into the following calendar year. Thus it affects all non-VIPs with non-January use years. Also, Silver and Bronze VIPs with April or July use years, and gold VIPs with an April use year. When attempting to use points deposit online, those owners will only see one option, the immediate future use year. Other owners will see two choices of use year.
> 
> *Proposed resolution:*
> 
> Provide the ability to utilize the deposit future use year points function for all use year scenarios currently in circulation for Wyndham owners. Until a fix is implemented, allow affected owners to pay the lower online points deposit fee when calling in to complete the deposit.



Is this issue still occurring for the impacted owners?


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## cbyrne1174

rws3654 said:


> We walked, and they told us that our account has been “dispositioned” based on the new rules for resale points.   Not even sure what that means.  They did admit it will not impact how we are currently using our points.   It does seem that they alternate now between trying to sell us that deeds are better one time and buying into CWA trust the next.


There is nothing wrong with your 100% resale account. You just dont get VIP and can't book Worldmark. That's it.


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## north

HitchHiker71 said:


> Is this issue still occurring for the impacted owners?



Yes, this is still occurring.  I have an October use-year, and can only deposit my points into the use year starting 10/01/2023.


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## markb53

HitchHiker71 said:


> Is this issue still occurring for the impacted owners?


Yes it is still occurring.


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## HitchHiker71

markb53 said:


> Yes it is still occurring.



Ok I will get this back in front of our Wyndham contacts then. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## markb53

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ok I will get this back in front of our Wyndham contacts then.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just in case this helps. Here is a screen shot of the points summary for the current use year. You can see that the points were awarded on 1/1/2021. And that is when they show up in the account. So back in 7/1/2020 I could only see the points for the next year not the following year because the points that start in 07/1/23 didn’t show up in the account until 1/1/2021. When I called Wyndham they told me that all points are awarded on the 1st of the year regardless of use year. And they couldn’t understand the problem that without VIP you wouldn’t see the points in time to deposit into the following use year.  Their solution was, “Well, you can just call in and deposit them” because apparently they could see them.

Thanks for everything you do for us. It is very much appreciated.


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