# Deflationgate part II



## "Roger" (May 6, 2015)

The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out and ...

Yahoo story on the report

"Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is more probable than not that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules,"


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## davidvel (May 6, 2015)

"Roger" said:


> The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out and ...
> 
> Yahoo story on the report
> 
> "Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is more probable than not that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules,"


Better not let Sue see this!


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## davidvel (May 6, 2015)

The "conclusion" is less damning than the facts themselves:



> In the weeks and months before the AFC Championship Game, McNally
> periodically exchanged text messages with the Patriots equipment assistant
> primarily responsible for the preparation of the Patriots game balls, John
> Jastremski. In a number of those text messages, McNally and Jastremski
> discussed the air pressure of Patriots game balls, Tom Brady‟s unhappiness with the inflation level of Patriots game balls, Jastremski‟s plan to provide McNally with a “needle” for use by McNally, and McNally‟s requests for “cash” and sneakers together with the “needle” to be provided by Jastremski. A sports ball inflation needle is a device that can be used to inflate a football (if attached to an air pump) or release air from a football (if inserted alone into a ball).


Seems these ball guys got a lot of pressure from Tom.


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## SueDonJ (May 6, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Better not let Sue see this!



Okay by me!  Football's not my game and the Patriots aren't my team.  They cheat.    (Probably most teams do, but the Pats aren't smart enough to do it without getting caught.)

I do love the Laurel and Hardy routine in the equipment guys text messages, spent the afternoon laughing while listening to the radio guys act them out.  "Dude!  F-N Tom!"


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## pedro47 (May 6, 2015)

I smell something brewing in the air and it is not coffee or tea..


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## Passepartout (May 6, 2015)

Casually listening to NPR earlier today, they said (iirc) that the Patriots could be fined as much as $500 million or bench Brady for up to 6 games. The announcer said there was no chance they'll keep him from playing for 6 games.

We'll see.

Jim


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## DaveNV (May 6, 2015)

How about they take back the Superbowl Championship they cheated to get?  How about they fine the heck out of them? How about they force Brady AND the Coaches to resign in shame without a dime of pension money? How about they make the entire team sit out a season or two?  But to be more realistic:  How about I just accept that they won't do much of anything, so the practice continues? 

I'm not a Cheattriot fan. Never have been, never will be.  

But that's just me. 

Dave


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## Kal (May 6, 2015)

What if they promise to try not to do very much evil again?  Oh, and give up their status in the Super Bowl outcome and deem the opponent as the winner! :ignore:


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## Clemson Fan (May 7, 2015)

Overall, I actually like Brady and the Patriots although I'm still very sore about the SB and my Seahwaks giving them that win.

That being said, I actually don't think the biggest advantage they received from the deflated balls is being talked about.  That advantage is their stunning lack of fumbles since 2006 when the QB's and teams were given more control over the inflation levels of the balls.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...iots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

It makes sense that a deflated ball is much easier to hold onto making it a lot less likely for you to fumble it.  I firmly believe that they've been deflating balls since 2006 and Belichick new about and approved it.  That has given them a HUGE advantage of being almost fumble proof since 2006.


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## ace2000 (May 7, 2015)

I'm sure the balls were tested and re-tested for the Super Bowl, and Brady and the Patriots won anyway.  That being said, this will stain his career forever and deservedly so.

The timing of the announcement was interesting - the month of May right after the NFL draft.  I think they're going to gauge the public's reaction and then act accordingly on the punishment phase.  I'm willing to bet they had all the information they needed within one week of the incident.


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## Timeshare Von (May 7, 2015)

It this any different than using a corked bat in baseball or an illegal golf ball?

I have never liked NE and really dislike Bill Belichick.  Perhaps "he" didn't know it was going on, but I believe he's a cheater and when the leader/coach cheats it creates and atmosphere that "cheating is OK" . . . so I still hold him responsible.

I found the most damning evidence presented was the fact that Indianapolis forewarned the NFL prior to their game saying it was "well known around the league" that Brady like smaller balls. (Insert joke here!)

Then they got an interception and the ball was infact underinflated, as noted when the defensive player kept the ball for his mantle.

I don't know how this was allowed to continue.  Something should have been done long before the Super Bowl.


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## joewillie12 (May 7, 2015)

Tom Brady meet Pete Rose......but of course that will never happen. The Pats will be penalized 5 yards on their opening kickoff next year and Kraft will pinky promise to his buddy Goodell never to cheat again.


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## Clemson Fan (May 7, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> I'm sure the balls were tested and re-tested for the Super Bowl, and Brady and the Patriots won anyway.



I agree and I never said anything to the contrary.

The SB was all about injuries finally catching up with the Seahawks and that awful final play call on the 1 yard line.  The injuries were just ridiculous.  Earl Thomas played with a torn rotator cuff that he suffered in the NFC Championship game and required surgery right after the SB.  Kam Chancellor played with a torn MCL that he torn in the last practice on the Friday before the SB.  Richard Sherman couldn't bend his left arm.  Jeremy Lane fractured his forearm AND blew out his ACL on the same play when he intercepted Brady (that will go down as the best interception Brady has thrown in his career because it really helped out NE) in the 1st quarter.  Brady just picked on his replacement, Tharold Simon, the rest of the game and Simon wasn't up to the task.  Then Clif Avril, who was getting the most pressure on Brady during the game, went out early in the 4th quarter with a concussion.


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## ace2000 (May 7, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> I agree and I never said anything to the contrary.



Sorry Clemson - I wasn't referring to your post when I mentioned that.  I was just making the point that they didn't need to cheat like that in order to win.  It was totally unnecessary and now they got burned. 

Did the NFL play it right by waiting this long to release the news?  I think they probably did (from their perspective) but it's a little frustrating to me.


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## SueDonJ (May 7, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> ... Did the NFL play it right by waiting this long to release the news?  I think they probably did (from their perspective) but it's a little frustrating to me.



The report is hundreds of pages, obviously it took a long time to investigate and put it together.  If the NFL held onto the completed report for an unreasonable time or were able to somehow delay its release by the independent commission after it was completed, then they didn't do right IMO.  But I haven't seen anything that says the NFL hindered the investigation or the report's release??


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## SueDonJ (May 7, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Overall, I actually like Brady and the Patriots although I'm still very sore about the SB and my Seahwaks giving them that win.
> 
> That being said, I actually don't think the biggest advantage they received from the deflated balls is being talked about.  That advantage is their stunning lack of fumbles since 2006 when the QB's and teams were given more control over the inflation levels of the balls.
> 
> ...



This.  What they were doing gave them an obvious advantage for years.


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## ace2000 (May 7, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> The report is hundreds of pages, obviously it took a long time to investigate and put it together.  If the NFL held onto the completed report for an unreasonable time or were able to somehow delay its release by the independent commission after it was completed, then they didn't do right IMO.  But I haven't seen anything that says the NFL hindered the investigation or the report's release??



Fair point.  But did they really need a huge investigation to discover what happened?  In my mind, it'd be like discovering Derek Jeter used a corked bat in the playoffs, and then instead of punishing him right away and possibly ruining the enjoyment of the World Series for many, they decide to order full-fledged investigation to delay the punishment phase.  And why are they waiting to disclose the punishment at this point?  What's the deal with that?  By waiting until after the draft, they have taken that option off the table - at least for this year.

In the grand scale of things, I don't think this is a huge conspiracy though.  Just wondering...


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## "Roger" (May 7, 2015)

A follow up article ...

Ten things hidden in the report

The one thing that surprises me is how little attention has been paid to the fact the Colts appeared to have been well aware that the deflation of balls had been going on prior to the title game.  Apparently the Colts general manager sent the following email to the NFL the day prior to the game ...

_"As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage,"_ 

Despite the warning, the officials did nothing until forced to (despite being alarmed that the balls disappeared for a while prior to the game).  

For those who think that the score was so lopsided that the underinflated balls played no part, the Patriots played a lot of close games during the season.  The deflated balls might have made a difference in a number of those games. We will never know.

Personally, I don't think that anything will come of the report except perhaps a mild slap on the wrist (and maybe not even that). In the end, Patriot fans will rally around Brady and their team (the letters to the Boston Globe are informative) and others beyond New England will be disappointed that this happened but life will go on.


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## hypnotiq (May 7, 2015)

Brady needs to be suspended a min of 4 games. Period. I'd prefer to see it as a year. If you're going to suspend players 4 games and a year a time for smoking marijuana, which has no impact on the game, you better come down harder on something that actually impacts the game.

Did it affect the AFC Championship game? Not really. Doesn't matter.

Cheating is cheating and he needs to face the consequences.

And his agent coming out and whining that they weren't told there was a "sting" operation. REALLY!?  You expect to be given a heads up that you're going to be checked for cheating?  Do the police give a heads up before drug raids?


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## geekette (May 7, 2015)

What's most annoying to this Colts fan is that NFL generally always lets game results stand.  They were not ever going to take back the AFC title regardless of proof of cheating.  

the talk of runaway scoring to me shows that Pats had no problems holding onto underinflated footballs.  Could they have had more dropped passes or fumbles if they had been forced to use the same footballs as the other team?  We'll never know because they got to keep on doing it.

In the future I would like to see the NFL force a forfeit if a team is caught cheating in any fashion, anyone involved with their team.  It's not ok that Pats got to move onto the SuperBowl.  The problem was known on game day, it did not take months to discover it.  Pats could have been forced to forfeit on the same day.


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## Clemson Fan (May 7, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Sorry Clemson - I wasn't referring to your post when I mentioned that.  I was just making the point that they didn't need to cheat like that in order to win.  It was totally unnecessary and now they got burned.



Yeah, I agree.  I actually have a ton of respect for Brady and Belichick.

That being said, I do think the Patriots gained a HUGE advantage since 2006 by letting air out of the footballs because it made them practically fumble proof as a team.  I do think they should be punished and punished severely, but the SB victory should not be taken away.  They won that fair and square.


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## hypnotiq (May 7, 2015)

Agreed. I dont think the SB victory needs to be vacated.

However, I want to see a *severe *punishment handed down on Brady. Min of 4 games, preferably a year (which the NFL would never do).


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## jmurp62 (May 7, 2015)

The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out
Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is *more probable than not *that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules (insert laugh)
"We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is *more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware* of the inappropriate activities. (insert hysterical laughter) 

As a league I feel that the NFL was more probable than not screwed out of millions of dollars they could use to have someone impartial watch over every game ball from now until the end of time! 

I, having read these comments find it more probable than not that over 100 days were wasted and it is more probable than not that there is no concrete evidence whatsoever of any wrong done by anyone on the Patriots team. As for the comments that the Patriots have been doing this for years thanks for that laugh also. You keep following Warren Sharp, the football analyst? and NFL handicapper. Perhaps Mr Sharp advances his theory because the Patriots beat his handicapping? Hmm, anyone can have a theory and anyone can base his theories on his biased thinking, much like the Well's report.

Until I see some hard facts rather than more probable than nots and at least general awareness I will continue to live in the real world, not the more probable world! 

Have a good day all.


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## Clemson Fan (May 7, 2015)

jmurp62 said:


> The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out
> Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is *more probable than not *that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules (insert laugh)
> "We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is *more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware* of the inappropriate activities. (insert hysterical laughter)
> 
> ...



If this were a criminal case the Patriots would clearly be found Not Guilty.  However, if this were a civil case where the legal standard is a preponderance of the evidence the Patriots would be found Guilty.

There's a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that the Patriots were indeed intentionally deflating footballs to gain a competitive advantage and their startling lack of fumbles IMO shows that they did gain that competitive advantage.

Being the Patriots fan that you are, you can continue to bury your head in the sand and scoff at it all, but the preponderance of the evidence clearly shows that they cheated.


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## hypnotiq (May 7, 2015)

Ah and now the truthers come out. :rofl:


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## hypnotiq (May 7, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> If this were a criminal case the Patriots would clearly be found Not Guilty.  However, if this were a civil case where the legal standard is a preponderance of the evidence the Patriots would be found Guilty.
> 
> There's a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that the Patriots were indeed intentionally deflating footballs to gain a competitive advantage and their startling lack of fumbles IMO shows that they did gain that competitive advantage.
> 
> Being the Patriots fan that you are, you can continue to bury your head in the sand and scoff at it all, but the preponderance of the evidence clearly shows that they cheated.



More importantly, the NFL has set the precedent in handing out penalties in the past by using the "more probable than not" as their standard.

Question is whether they will be consistent given who it is and the relationship of Goddell/Kraft.


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## SueDonJ (May 7, 2015)

jmurp62 said:


> The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out
> Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is *more probable than not *that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules (insert laugh)
> "We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is *more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware* of the inappropriate activities. (insert hysterical laughter)
> 
> ...



You know, I'm a rabid RedSox fan, think Ortiz is the best thing that's happened to this team since Fisk, but he's still a whiny cry-baby who did steroids and he shouldn't have gotten away with saying the F-word on a national broadcast.

I just don't understand how the rabid Pats fans think that they're helping the situation when they refuse to even consider the possibility, never mind probability, that this team crosses lines that other teams don't even see.  Man up, Murph!  There's nothing wrong with saying, "Yep they did it and yep it helped them, but despite it the Brady-Belichick tandem is One For The Ages."


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## davidvel (May 7, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> That being said, I do think the Patriots gained a HUGE advantage since 2006 by letting air out of the footballs because it made them practically fumble proof as a team.  I do think they should be punished and punished severely, but the SB victory should not be taken away.  They won that fair and square.


I agree. There are a number of reports analyzing the fumble rate that show that the numbers are only possible with some manipulation of balls, including refuting that Belicheat just coaches them better (they fumble again once they are off the Pats.)

Anyone who thinks reducing fumbles doesn't lead to wins, doesn't watch much NFL.

This whole problem was caused by the change in rules allowing each offense to have its own balls (after lobbying by Brady and P. Manning). NFL needs to return to a single set of official balls used by both offenses.

As for the Hawks, Carroll should have asked for a Patriot ball, and had Russell hand it to Beast.


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## Kal (May 7, 2015)

What took so long to finish the report? The balls WERE deflated and the ball manager didn't want to be properly interviewed. And the QB didn't even know the balls were different and wouldn't release his emails or text messages??? REALLY!

Guilty as charged! Now a question of how many games he will be suspended. Use the case against the New Orleans Aints as precedent for the punishment.


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## SueDonJ (May 7, 2015)

jmurp62 said:


> The final report on the investigation into the deflated footballs during the AFC championship game is out
> Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is *more probable than not *that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules (insert laugh)
> "We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is *more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware* of the inappropriate activities. (insert hysterical laughter)
> 
> ...



I learned this afternoon that all the "... more likely to ..., more probable than not ..." etc language used in the report is actually the exact language that's set as the parameters for guilt or innocence in the NFL Rulebook.  In other words, the Wells Commission Report doesn't say that there isn't enough evidence to reach anything but findings based on circumstantial evidence, which is the way Patriots supporters are translating it.  Instead, the report says that there is enough evidence for guilty findings as they're defined in the NFL Rulebook, which is more damaging to the Patriots than a first read would make it appear.


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## hypnotiq (May 7, 2015)

Here's a nice cross reference w/Bradys statements from January and the Wells Report.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...l?hootPostID=7d40ff73640cb8934f9eda6c04fc5297


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## geekette (May 7, 2015)

davidvel said:


> I agree. There are a number of reports analyzing the fumble rate that show that the numbers are only possible with some manipulation of balls, including refuting that Belicheat just coaches them better (they fumble again once they are off the Pats.)
> 
> Anyone who thinks reducing fumbles doesn't lead to wins, doesn't watch much NFL.
> 
> ...



Fumble reduction is a big deal.  Agree, balls go back to the officials, this problem solved.  Let the cheaters find a new way.

I cannot know for sure that Pats would have made it to the game where they were caught.  They aren't "my team" but I don't recall their season being stellar?   My personal biased opinion is that their season should have ended when they were caught cheating.  The Colts should have advanced to the Super Bowl.  Probably for me forever more, the big win should never have included cheaters and there is a stink on that trophy.


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## x3 skier (May 8, 2015)

*Famous quotes*

"I am not a crook"

"I've turned over all the relevant emails on my personal server"

"I know nothing about under inflated footballs"

Cheers


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## ace2000 (May 8, 2015)

Jon Stewart's take on it...  (hilarious!)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ow-take-on-deflategate-is-funnier-than-yours/


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## DanO (May 10, 2015)

Haters are gonna hate... Go Pats!!


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## Clemson Fan (May 10, 2015)

DanO said:


> Haters are gonna hate... Go Pats!!



And it looks like cheaters are going to cheat! 

This is a good article from Boston.com

http://www.boston.com/sports/footba...ssible-rate/LCgrlUR9qgxDsIgcal9dUI/story.html

It shows that not only since 2007 have the Patriots fumbled at an impossibly low rate (especially for an outdoor team that plays a lot in inclement weather), all their players that handle the ball that were with other teams fumbled at a much higher rate when not playing for the Pats.  

Belichick should be counting his lucky stars that he didn't have any involvement in the ball deflation during the Colts game because I'm sure he knew that they've been systemically deflating the footballs since 2007 when the teams were given more control over the game day footballs.

If you think it didn't help Brady, take a look at his stats before and after 2006-2007.  There's a fairly stark difference!

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tom-brady-player-stats


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## Talent312 (May 10, 2015)

Brady's denials sound to me a lot like Bill Clinton's in the Lewinsky matter.

Someone said (I forget who)... The country is split over whether Brady is guilty.
There's 95% of America and then there's the people in (or from) Boston.
.


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## ace2000 (May 10, 2015)

At this point, does it matter?  At most, Brady gets suspended for 6-8 games to start the season, and the Pats still probably make the playoffs at the end of the year.  The timing of the NFL announcement couldn't have come at a better time for the team.  Besides the diehards, nobody cares about football right now.  Coincidence?

Edit: He really needs to be suspended for the entire season IMO.


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## DanO (May 10, 2015)

Cheaters please, they are doing nothing different than every other NFL team and QB


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## joewillie12 (May 10, 2015)

DanO said:


> Cheaters please, they are doing nothing different than every other NFL team and QB


 Even Tim Tebow??:hysterical:


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## Kal (May 10, 2015)

DanO said:


> Cheaters please, they are doing nothing different than every other NFL team and QB



 Could you provide a few specifics to support that notion?


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## DanO (May 10, 2015)

Aaron Rodgers stated he likes the ball over inflated.

 Jay Cutler caught using a towel with stickum on it to wipe the ball during a game.

Jimmy Johnson stating a lot of teams filmed the opposing sidelines regularly including himself when he coached the Cowboys. 
This stuff goes on all the time in the NFL and the Patriots got targeted and caught because they are so successful and definitely a little arrogant about it. 
Nuf said


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## joewillie12 (May 10, 2015)

DanO said:


> Aaron Rodgers stated he likes the ball over inflated.
> 
> Jay Cutler caught using a towel with stickum on it to wipe the ball during a game.
> 
> ...


 They need to be a little smarter next time and stop getting caught in the act.


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## x3 skier (May 10, 2015)

DanO said:


> Aaron Rodgers stated he likes the ball over inflated.
> 
> Jay Cutler caught using a towel with stickum on it to wipe the ball during a game.
> 
> ...




3 = "every other team and QB in the NFL":zzz:

Cheers


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## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> 3 = "every other team and QB in the NFL":zzz:
> 
> Cheers



Really 2 because AR said he likes the ball on the upper limit of the inflation scale and he likes it nice and hard.  There's no evidence that him or GB have been intentionally hyperinflating the balls.  One can argue that that actually hurts his team with increased fumbles and increased dropped passes.


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## Kal (May 11, 2015)

DanO said:


> ...Jimmy Johnson stating a lot of teams filmed the opposing sidelines regularly including himself when he coached the Cowboys.
> This stuff goes on all the time in the NFL and the Patriots got targeted and caught because they are so successful and definitely a little arrogant about it.
> Nuf said



Hmmm, Johnson's departure from the NFL was in 1993.  That was just 22 years ago.  Similar do you have any hot dirt on Y.A. Tittle?


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## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

And here you have it...I would have liked to see a longer suspension but surprised he got 4 games at it is. #cheater



> Tom Brady suspended 4 games, Patriots fined $1M, lose their 2016 first-round pick and a 2017 fourth-round pick.


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## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

Wow.  I'm okay with all of it except for the two locker room idiots losing their jobs.  What were they supposed to do, say no to the orders?!

CBS Boston news:  Tom Brady Suspended Four Games For DeflateGate; Patriots Docked Draft Picks, Fined $1 Million


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## x3 skier (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> Hmmm, Johnson's departure from the NFL was in 1993.  That was just 22 years ago.  Similar do you have any hot dirt on Y.A. Tittle?



I always knew Frank Gifford was a crook. :hysterical:

Cheers


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## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

The problem is Brady will appeal and it will get reduced, which will make me not OK with it.

I wanted to see a min of 4 games (though I think he deserves a year) post appeal.

If you fail the NFL drug test a couple of times for marijuana, you get 4 games. You cheat, you get the same or less...that's part of my problem with it.

And agree about the locker room guys.


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## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

Meanwhile...



> The 2015 NFL season opens with Patriots vs. Steelers. Players suspended from the game:
> 
> Tom Brady
> Le'Veon Bell
> LeGarrette Blount


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## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Damn, you guys and gals are wicked fast!  I just got an alert on my phone 10 minutes ago!

I can't wait to read the comments sections of the articles that will be written on this to see the Patriots fans go apoplectic!

The penalty on the Patriots team was a lot more severe than I would've expected.  Losing a 1st and 4th round draft pick is pretty severe especially considering Belichick new nothing about it.


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## Talent312 (May 11, 2015)

Legendary coach, Don Shula, said:
"We always tried to do it by the rules and set an example for those that are looking for an example. That's what I think I take more pride in than anything else... I coached for 33 years, and I never once in that 33-year period of time ever even talked or heard anyone talk about the air in a football."

_I happen to believe that.  He was a class act._ 
.


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## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Damn, you guys and gals are wicked fast!  I just got an alert on my phone 10 minutes ago!
> 
> I can't wait to read the comments sections of the articles that will be written on this to see the Patriots fans go apoplectic!
> 
> The penalty on the Patriots team was a lot more severe than I would've expected.  Losing a 1st and 4th round draft pick is pretty severe especially considering Belichick new nothing about it.



Bellichick is the only NFL coach to win 4 Super Bowls and have 2 1st Round Draft Picks stripped for cheating.


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## geekette (May 11, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Wow.  I'm okay with all of it except for the two locker room idiots losing their jobs.  What were they supposed to do, say no to the orders?!


Yeah, the sacrificial lambs, it always rolls downhill.  If no one else lost their jobs, how do they get axed?  All involved knew it was wrong, and it was a conspiracy.  "Discipline them" with either one week of pay or demotion.  Give them the warning that no further infraction of any kind will be tolerated  Hypocritical to fire them if the others don't get bounced.


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## joewillie12 (May 11, 2015)

Will I be able to turn my Brady jersey in to the pats for a refund? I simply can't imagine wearing it anymore


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## x3 skier (May 11, 2015)

joewillie12 said:


> Will I be able to turn my Brady jersey in to the pats for a refund? I simply can't imagine wearing it anymore



Only if you send it back on an overinflated weather balloon. 

Cheers


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## Kal (May 11, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> I always knew Frank Gifford was a crook. :hysterical:
> 
> Cheers


 
 Word has it that Frank had longer cleats than allowed.  OMG!  He's definitely a crook.


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## Kal (May 11, 2015)

New comment from Brady:

 "You want me with that ball....you NEED me with that ball!!"


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## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> New comment from Brady:
> 
> "You want me with that ball....you NEED me with that ball!!"



HAHAHA!!!  That's very good!  You need to figure out how to do a meme before somebody else runs with your idea!


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## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> New comment from Brady:
> 
> "You want me with that ball....you NEED me with that ball!!"



Did you order the code red!?!?

DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED!!!???!!!???


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## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> HAHAHA!!!  That's very good!  You need to figure out how to do a meme before somebody else runs with your idea!



A local radio station already did a dub of the audio with that scene making it specific to deflategate. Im trying to find it online right now. It was pretty funny.


----------



## x3 skier (May 11, 2015)

"You can't handle the truth!!!"

Cheers


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

DanO said:


> Aaron Rodgers stated he likes the ball over inflated.
> 
> Jay Cutler caught using a towel with stickum on it to wipe the ball during a game.
> 
> ...



I don't think so....You have many examples of the NFL hitting cheating teams. You forgot to mention the Saints and Falcons, for example.

BTW, did you know the Pats have a record of holding onto the ball that is SO much better than other teams that the odds of it being statistically outside the standard deviation (on its own) are 1 in 16233? 

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/01/23/deflated-patriots-statistically-impossible-fumble-record/

To sum up the article: League average- 1 fumble every 105 carries-since 2007-BTW 2007 was the Pats 16-0 regular season. (Nearly every team within 21 of that average.) The Pats-- 1 fumble in 187 carries. Nearly statistically impossible. 

Do you think that could be because the ball has been easier to hold on to?

There is a pattern.


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Damn, you guys and gals are wicked fast!  I just got an alert on my phone 10 minutes ago!
> 
> I can't wait to read the comments sections of the articles that will be written on this to see the Patriots fans go apoplectic!
> 
> The penalty on the Patriots team was a lot more severe than I would've expected.  Losing a 1st and 4th round draft pick is pretty severe especially considering Belichick new nothing about it.



Well, you are in HI. Thats many hours behind us.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Mr. Vker said:


> BTW, did you know the Pats have a record of holding onto the ball that is SO much better than other teams that the odds of it being statistically outside the standard deviation (on its own) are 1 in 16233?
> 
> http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/01/23/deflated-patriots-statistically-impossible-fumble-record/
> 
> ...



That's why I think Belichick has to be involved and he's soooooo lucky he wasn't involved with it during that specific Colts game.

That team advantage IMO is much more significant than the individual advantage Brady received.


----------



## pedro47 (May 11, 2015)

Tom Brady has been suspended for the first four (4) games of the 2015-16 football season and the team was fine one million dollars(peanuts). Plus the loss of two (2) future draft picks.  Wow now that was a very soft fine on Brady and the Team in my opinion.


----------



## Kal (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Did you order the code red!?!?
> 
> DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED!!!???!!!???



Roger Goodell- "YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT, I ORDERED THE CODE RED"


----------



## Kal (May 11, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> Tom Brady has been suspended for the first four (4) games of the 2015-16 football season and the team was fine one million dollars(peanuts). Plus the loss of two (2) future draft picks. Wow now that was a very soft fine on Brady and the Team in my opinion.



Actually very balanced:

 Owner - $1M
 Coach - 2 draft picks
 QB - 4 games off to serve as ball boy


----------



## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

Except its naive to think that Brady will get 4 games after the appeal...


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> Roger Goodell- "YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT, I ORDERED THE CODE RED"



Not Goodell.  I was thinking more of Brady or Belichick ordering the code red to those two equipment managers to deflate the footballs.

Goodell is more like the Tom Cruise character IMO.


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> That's why I think Belichick has to be involved and he's soooooo lucky he wasn't involved with it during that specific Colts game.
> 
> That team advantage IMO is much more significant than the individual advantage Brady received.



Being from Baltimore, I have suspicions about them overcoming a 14 point deficit twice in the playoff game against the Ravens. Brady even ran one in. Squeezing it tight.


----------



## TUGBrian (May 11, 2015)

doubt any of the saints coaching staff, nor the players that served significantly longer suspensions will agree this penalty was acceptable as punishment for "violating the integrity of the league"

I do find it bizarre how all over the map the penalties for things in the NFL seem to be.


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> Actually very balanced:
> 
> Owner - $1M
> Coach - 2 draft picks
> QB - 4 games off to serve as ball boy



Heard on local radio.

Not my analysis...

$1mil is nothing. (I wish I felt that way.)

Draft picks huge-but the NFL has positioned that ignorance is no defense. Bounty gate and Falcons Crowd noise.

QB-should have been 6 as appeal will likely water it down.

My thoughts-- Brady has appealed. Will the Pats? Their statement said they would accept the punishment given by the NFL.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Thankfully, no referees were harmed in the making of this spectacle.




-


----------



## Kal (May 11, 2015)

Mr. Vker said:


> ...My thoughts-- Brady has appealed. Will the Pats? Their statement said they would accept the punishment given by the NFL.


 
 Appeal must be made to the NFL Commissioner.

 Wow, that might cause some intestinal blockage


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

Kal said:


> Appeal must be made to the NFL Commissioner.
> 
> Wow, that might cause some intestinal blockage



Brady already announced he would appeal. I just wonder if the Pats will as well. Or, will they accept the decision as they stated over the weekend.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Mr. Vker said:


> Brady already announced he would appeal. I just wonder if the Pats will as well. Or, will they accept the decision as they stated over the weekend.



From wcvb.com

"Tom Brady's agent, Don Yee, released a statement Monday after Brady was given a four-game suspension for his role in the Deflategate controversy:

"The discipline is ridiculous and has no legitimate basis. In my opinion, this outcome was pre-determined; there was no fairness in the Wells investigation whatsoever. There is no evidence that Tom directed footballs be set at pressures below the allowable limits.


"In fact, the evidence shows Tom clearly emphasized that footballs be set at pressures within the rules.


"Tom also cooperated with the investigation and answered every question presented to him. The Wells Report presents significant evidence, however, that the NFL lacks standards or protocols with respect to its handling of footballs prior to games; this is not the fault of Tom or the Patriots.


"The report also presents significant evidence the NFL participated with the Colts in some type of pre-AFC Championship Game planning regarding the footballs. This fact may raise serious questions about the integrity of the games we view on Sundays.


"We will appeal, and if the hearing officer is completely independent and neutral, I am very confident the Wells Report will be exposed as an incredibly frail exercise in fact-finding and logic.


"The NFL has a well-documented history of making poor disciplinary decisions that often are overturned when truly independent and neutral judges or arbitrators preside, and a former federal judge has found the commissioner has abused his discretion in the past, so this outcome does not surprise me.


"Sadly, today's decision diminishes the NFL as it tells its fans, players and coaches that the games on the field don't count as much as the games played on Park Avenue."


----------



## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

The fact that his agent is still throwing a fit about the fact that there was a "sting" operation is laughable.

Yes, the NFL should have given you notice they were going to check to see if you were cheating. Just like they email all the players before drug tests...


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> From wcvb.com
> 
> "Tom Brady's agent, Don Yee, released a statement Monday after Brady was given a four-game suspension for his role in the Deflategate controversy:
> 
> ...



This confirms that Brady is appealing. My question is about the team... Kraft said they would accept the ruling of the NFL. So what about the draft picks and the fine. (Brady can only appeal his suspension.)


----------



## joewillie12 (May 11, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> Tom Brady has been suspended for the first four (4) games of the 2015-16 football season and the team was fine one million dollars(peanuts). Plus the loss of two (2) future draft picks.  Wow now that was a very soft fine on Brady and the Team in my opinion.


 The fine may be small but the penalty is large. The legacy of Brady and the Pats have been tarnished forever. Twenty five years from now when people talk about the Patriots they will be also remembered as being caught cheating. Most likely in the same manner that Bonds, Arod,and Lance Armstrong will be. It really is a shame because the Patriots have had really good solid teams and Brady a hall of fame career. I wonder if this will effect is HOF status someday?


----------



## ace2000 (May 11, 2015)

When do we get to hear the apology that the Patriots owner kept asking for?  :hysterical:


----------



## waffles77 (May 11, 2015)

hypnotiq said:


> The fact that his agent is still throwing a fit about the fact that there was a "sting" operation is laughable.
> 
> Yes, the NFL should have given you notice they were going to check to see if you were cheating. Just like they email all the players before drug tests...



Actually the fact that they ran a 'sting' operation is pretty appalling. And yes, they said as much in the Wells report that it was a sting. 

This took place during the AFC championship game. We know that they will not reverse the outcome of a game. What if the score had been run up to 50-0 during the first half, just so during halftime the Patriots could be 'caught in the act'? The powers that be were more concerned about making certain that the 'cheating' happened than the actual integrity of the (CHAMPIONSHIP) game - being a fair matchup for both teams involved.

This certainly blew up more because of the way that it went down. Instead of double checking that everything was taken care of appropriately before the game thus a fair game played, they had to do it at halftime.

I certainly am not condoning 'cheating' in a game, but the way it was handled was certainly done more to 'catch someone in the act' rather than paying attention to the integrity of the game. It was actually quite childish actions coming from grown adults.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 11, 2015)

waffles77 said:


> Actually the fact that they ran a 'sting' operation is pretty appalling. And yes, they said as much in the Wells report that it was a sting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I never said it wasn't a sting. And it should have been one. You don't give a team a heads up that you're checking them for cheating if they're suspected of it. That's like giving a drug dealer a heads up of a drug raid. 

And I said long ago that what they did didn't impact that game. Doesn't matter. Bottom line. They cheated. It's not the first time they did it and they should be punished. Brady knew damn well what was going on and is not innocent. 

The Patriots will not be remembered in history for their 4 Super Bowls. They will be remembered for being caught cheating TWICE. Though it's clear that the organization doesn't care that it's their legacy now. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slip (May 11, 2015)

Footballs about winning championships. There will be some people that feel the
Way you do but they will be remembered for their 4 Super Bowls.


----------



## waffles77 (May 11, 2015)

hypnotiq said:


> And I said long ago that what they did didn't impact that game. Doesn't matter. Bottom line.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You're right. It didn't impact the game, but what if it did? I am not saying that they shouldn't be punished or that they didn't cheat. It was the wrong game to run a sting.


----------



## DavidnRobin (May 11, 2015)

What? Didn't impact game? That is only true if both sides used the same balls - but that is not how it works.  The 2 teams use different sets of balls - that is what is wrong, and that should be rectified - both teams should use same game balls.
Why isn't this discussed?

btw - this just in...
Brady suspended for 1st 4 games of season
NE fined 1 MM
Loses 1st round draft pick in 2016, and 4th round in 2017


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## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Yes, David, I agree.

I have to take my Pats hat off and put my legal one on and look at the facts. "Facts are stubborn things" - John Adams

For those of you haven't actually read Wells' report, this should be enlightening:

By Doug Kyed, NESN.COM

*Five Biggest Issues With Evidence Against Patriots In Wells Report*

If the NFL is going to punish Tom Brady severely, then it will be doing so despite flawed data and a lack of concrete evidence the Patriots quarterback was involved in any shenanigans. Any PSI data should likely be thrown out by the league because of the multitude of errors made by the NFL and its officials on Jan. 18, 2015.


Here are the five biggest issues in the Wells Report:

— PSI wasn’t recorded before the AFC Championship Game

This is the biggest issue with any data trying to prove the Patriots deflated footballs. Referee Walt Anderson, after being told football pressure could be an issue in the AFC Championship Game, didn’t record his pregame measurements. The Wells report bases all data on the Colts’ footballs being 13 PSI before the game and the Patriots’ footballs being 12.5 based on Anderson’s recollection.

If the Patriots’ footballs were a tick under 12.5 PSI or if the Colts’ footballs were a tick over 13 PSI, then it throws off all data. Anderson said he didn’t add or release pressure from the Colts’ footballs. One Colts football measured at 12.95 PSI on one gauge, so it seems extremely unlikely that football began at 13 PSI.

_— Two pressure gauges used were wildly off_
Another major issue with any data relating to the PSI in either team’s footballs is the two pressure gauges used were approximately .35 PSI off from one another. Anderson said he recalls using the “logo” gauge, which reads higher than the non-logo gauge. The Wells Report ignored Anderson’s recollection and chose to assume he used the non-logo gauge because it suited their data better.

If the logo gauge was used before the AFC Championship Game, then the Patriots’ footballs averaged 11.48 PSI at halftime, which is well within the level a football can drop according to the Ideal Gas Law during the AFC Championship Game. If the non-logo gauge was used, then it looks far more damning for the Patriots. That’s the issue, though. No one knows which gauge was used, and it’s entirely possible Anderson used both gauges before the game to measure PSI for both teams and reduce pressure in the Patriots’ footballs.

If the NFL wants footballs to fall within a 1 PSI range, then it can’t use gauges that range considerably from one another.

— Colts footballs were tested after Patriots footballs

The footballs were brought inside the officials locker room at halftime, and 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were tested. The Patriots footballs were tested, and possibly refilled, before the officials tested the Colts footballs. The officials were in the locker room for 13-and-a-half minutes, and based on data collected in the Wells Report, a cold, damp football can raise 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes. That amount of time would at least partially explain why the Patriots’ footballs deflated more than the Colts’ footballs.

Only testing four Colts footballs — because of time restraints — is another issue because of small sample size. The Colts footballs were supposed to serve as a “control,” but that idea was destroyed when the footballs weren’t tested simultaneously, and when the NFL decided to test just four footballs from Indianapolis.

— *Text messages were dated months before AFC Championship Game*
The most damning evidence against the Patriots is within the text exchanges between team staffers John Jastremski and Jim McNally, in which the former references a needle and the latter calls himself “the deflator” and jokingly threatens to “go to ESPN.” The issue with these texts is they’re from May and October — months away from the January AFC Championship Game. Those texts would look a lot more damning if they came in the weeks prior to the Patriots’ matchup against the Colts.

Who’s to say the Patriots were deflating footballs, then stopped before January because they caught wind the league was after them? Obviously McNally’s trip to the bathroom looks suspicious, and the fact that he originally said he didn’t stop in the restroom in his initial interview looks even worse, but it alone probably shouldn’t assume guilt.

*— Texts never state Tom Brady wanted his footballs under 12.5 PSI*

The closest Jastremski or McNally comes to saying Brady is in on any deflation is when Jastremski texts the following:

Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs (expletive) us…a few of then were at almost 16
Jastremski: They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

This was after the Patriots’ Week 7 win over the New York Jets, and it actually raises more questions than answers.

If McNally’s stress was to deflate footballs, then why were they at 16 PSI the next morning? Apparently, McNally wasn’t doing his job very well.

Why were the footballs at 16 PSI at all? The Patriots must have submitted footballs under 12.5, the officials must have refilled them, and they refilled them way too much without checking the level, proving no one really cared about football inflation or deflation as recently as October.

McNally also sends these texts to his fiancée that week:

Jastremski: Ugh…Tom was right.
Jastremski: I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks

This is actually the only text in which Brady’s desired PSI is revealed, and it’s not 12.5 or lower. McNally told the officials Brady wanted the footballs inflated to 12.5. A common theme in Jastremski and McNally’s texts is Brady complaining about the PSI level in footballs, but it all seems to be related to the Jets game, when they were overfilled by 3.5 PSI.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

waffles77 said:


> Actually the fact that they ran a 'sting' operation is pretty appalling. And yes, they said as much in the Wells report that it was a sting.
> 
> This took place during the AFC championship game. We know that they will not reverse the outcome of a game. What if the score had been run up to 50-0 during the first half, just so during halftime the Patriots could be 'caught in the act'? The powers that be were more concerned about making certain that the 'cheating' happened than the actual integrity of the (CHAMPIONSHIP) game - being a fair matchup for both teams involved.
> 
> ...



I partially agree with you.  I don't think it was a full fledged "sting" operation, but if it was, then your right in that it was very poorly done and it did affect the integrity of the AFC Championship Game.  If it was truly a sting what they should've done is checked all the footballs before the game like they normally do, give them to NE's equipment guy like they normally do, THEN put a hidden camera on him and as soon as he comes out of the bathroom have another official there to "intercept" him and take the footballs back and re-measure them before the game.  The official could then re-inflate them to specs and they can continue on with the game.  NE would be caught cheating, but the game could still be played without any lost integrity.


----------



## x3 skier (May 11, 2015)

I don't get all the talk about a sting. If it was to be a sting, it would have been simple to take a few balls after the first Pats offensive series or even before or after kickoff, measure the pressure, have them correctly inflated, and then issue penalties after investigating how they were deflated. 

Who knows why they never checked until later unless the fix was in which means the Super Bowl only cost the Pats $1M (peanuts) a couple of draft choices and Brady a couple of million he will never miss. That makes as much sense as calling it some kind of sting. 

The Pats cheated, got caught, and are now whining about it, especially the Bozo Brady Agent. 

Cheers


----------



## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

So the Colts tipped off the league days before the game that the Pats were deflating footballs, whether they heard it from the Ravens or if they suspected it in past Pats/Colts games.  Maybe the league started looking into it immediately and found the lopsided fumble stats, because wouldn't the stats be the first thing they'd look at?  And from there they decided that in order to conduct a full investigation and thus levy punishments based on a pattern rather than one game, they'd have to catch the Pats in the act?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the league had a deal with the Colts for an in-game ball to be turned in after a fumble, or that if that opportunity didn't present itself then they had other contingencies to get official hands on an in-play ball.  Consider that a delay of game at the start wouldn't have nearly the cache for instigating a full investigation as a ball in play, again if a pattern is what they thought they were dealing with and what they hoped to punish.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Yes, David, I agree.
> 
> I have to take my Pats hat off and put my legal one on and look at the facts. "Facts are stubborn things" - John Adams
> 
> ...



I read this whole post and all I can say is it reads like just a bunch of Boston homer BS.  I could spend time poking holes in his arguments and I may do that later when I have more time.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> I don't get all the talk about a sting. If it was to be a sting, it would have been simple to take a few balls after the first Pats offensive series or even before or after kickoff, measure the pressure, have them correctly inflated, and then issue penalties after investigating how they were deflated.
> 
> Who knows why they never checked until later unless the fix was in which means the Super Bowl only cost the Pats $1M (peanuts) a couple of draft choices and Brady a couple of million he will never miss. That makes as much sense as calling it some kind of sting.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's why I don't think it was a "sting".  It was more of just an alert to be aware of this possibility.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

joewillie12 said:


> The fine may be small but the penalty is large. The legacy of Brady and the Pats have been tarnished forever. Twenty five years from now when people talk about the Patriots they will be also remembered as being caught cheating. Most likely in the same manner that Bonds, Arod,and Lance Armstrong will be. It really is a shame because the Patriots have had really good solid teams and Brady a hall of fame career. I wonder if this will effect is HOF status someday?



Not for me.  In my mind Brady is still one of the best QB's ever to play the game and Belichick is one of the best coaches of all time.  Then again, I'm on record here as being in favor of PED's as long as they're monitored by a physician and don't do permanent harm.  I actually don't mind if players or coaches look for edges to help their team and if they're caught it doesn't permanently stain their whole career IMO.  Admittedly, though, I'm probably in the minority.

I do find great enjoyment listening to all the "it's science dude" experts coming from the Boston area trying to explain this away.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> I read this whole post and all I can say is it reads like just a bunch of Boston homer BS.  I could spend time poking holes in his arguments and I may do that later when I have more time.



Then you might find NBC Sports even more enlightening and the pressure gauge discrepancies undermining the Wells report. Not only from Boston, but nice try.  

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/pressure-gauge-discrepancies-undermine-wells-report/




-


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Then you might find NBS Sports even more enlightening and the pressure gauge discrepancies undermining the Wells report. Not only from Boston, but nice try.
> 
> http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/pressure-gauge-discrepancies-undermine-wells-report/
> 
> ...



Give me a break.  It wasn't a scientific study and shouldn't be held up to those standards.  That's why the findings were "more probable than not" and why it wasn't a true "sting" like a lot of Bostonites are screaming.


----------



## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

Mr. Vker said:


> This confirms that Brady is appealing. My question is about the team... Kraft said they would accept the ruling of the NFL. So what about the draft picks and the fine. (Brady can only appeal his suspension.)



Kraft's statement tonight leaves the door open for appeal with that "however" thrown in ...

_"Despite our conviction that there was no tampering with footballs, it was our intention to accept any discipline levied by the league. Today’s punishment, however, far exceeded any reasonable expectation. It was based completely on circumstantial rather than hard or conclusive evidence."

"We are humbled by the support the New England Patriots have received from our fans throughout the world. We recognize our fans’ concerns regarding the NFL’s penalties and share in their disappointment in how this one-sided investigation was handled, as well as the dismissal of the scientific evidence supported by the Ideal Gas Law in the final report."

"Tom Brady has our unconditional support. Our belief in him has not wavered."_

Did anybody ever really believe that they'd sit and take whatever the league handed down without at least trying to discredit it?  Not me - living here you learn very quickly that the Pats are the league's scapegoats and they never ever never ever never NEVER EVER get a fair shake.  "Haters gonna hate, winners gonna win, blahblahblah"


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## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Give me a break.  It wasn't a scientific study and shouldn't be held up to those standards.  That's why the findings were "more probable than not" and why it wasn't a true "sting" like a lot of Bostonites are screaming.



  Uh, that would be Bostonian.


  I can see that you would not come out in favor of science if you support the physician supervised doping of athletes.  That is what I call bad science and cheating. YMMV.

-


----------



## waffles77 (May 11, 2015)




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## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

waffles77 said:


>





   Exactly !



-


----------



## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

Sportstalk Radio and the internet are going to make me completely lose my mind in the next few days, I just know it.  Trending on Facebook, "#nobradynobanner" - these yahoos don't want the team to unfurl the Super Bowl banner next season until Brady is on the field in the game.  And one guy outside the stadium wants the team to forfeit whichever games Brady has to sit out next year.  Oh yeah, that'll show 'em.  Really, my head is going to explode.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Sportstalk Radio and the internet are going to make me completely lose my mind in the next few days, I just know it.  Trending on Facebook, "#nobradynobanner" - these yahoos don't want the team to unfurl the Super Bowl banner next season until Brady is on the field in the game.  And one guy outside the stadium wants the team to forfeit whichever games Brady has to sit out next year.  Oh yeah, that'll show 'em.  Really, my head is going to explode.



  Just change the station. I had Loren & Wally on all morning. Made me laugh.

  -


----------



## joewillie12 (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Not for me.  In my mind Brady is still one of the best QB's ever to play the game and Belichick is one of the best coaches of all time.  Then again, I'm on record here as being in favor of PED's as long as they're monitored by a physician and don't do permanent harm.  I actually don't mind if players or coaches look for edges to help their team and if they're caught it doesn't permanently stain their whole career IMO.  Admittedly, though, I'm probably in the minority.
> 
> I do find great enjoyment listening to all the "it's science dude" experts coming from the Boston area trying to explain this away.


 Totally agree that Brady has been an all pro QB for almost his entire career. No argument there. Belicheck one of the smartest coaches with the ability to get the most out of his players I've ever seen.  The competitive nature of an athlete is to gain an advantage over his/her opponent and win in the event they are competing in and be the best while doing it. I think we agree there.
Unfortunately athletes/coaches compromise the integrity of their sport by breaking the rules that are in place to gain that advantage. Some rules may seem minuscule as the air in a football but they are rules that are there to be followed. I think Brady will forever carry the stigma of cheater because of what he has accomplished in his career. A lesser player no one will remember. Imagine if Jack Nicklaus was caught using tainted golf balls. Would we think of him in the same manner now? Would he be in the PGA hall of fame? I guess time will only tell.


----------



## SueDonJ (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Just change the station. I had Loren & Wally on all morning. Made me laugh.
> 
> -



But I can't!  I've had a completely irrational crush on Tony Mazz for years and have to hear him every afternoon.  (In my defense, it's a lot more reasonable than the crush I used to have on former-CNN anchor Aaron Brown.)  :rofl:


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## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Uh, that would be Bostonian.
> 
> 
> I can see that you would not come out in favor of science if you support the physician supervised doping of athletes.  That is what I call bad science and cheating. YMMV.
> ...



I've had an epiphany.  There are many Bostonian's that are fabulous and world renowned scientists.  Combine that with being a Boston sports fan and I can see why they keep writing articles about the the Wells Report failing on a scientific basis.  Again, on a strictly scientific basis there are a lot of holes and it does fail.  However, it was an investigation about possible cheating and not a pre-planned scientific study.  Thus the findings were, "more probable than not."

As far as the "doping" of athletes, you can call it cheating, but you can't call it bad science.  The science behind many of the substances being used that are illegal to their particular sports is actually quite remarkable.  Many of those substances (HGH, EPO, steroids, etc.) are used to treat a host of real diseases and they benefit a great many patients.  EPO (the main "doping" agent Lance Armstrong used), for example, is used in a lot of cancer and kidney patients with great results.


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## Beaglemom3 (May 11, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> I've had an epiphany.  There are many Bostonian's that are fabulous and world renowned scientists.  Combine that with being a Boston sports fan and I can see why they keep writing articles about the the Wells Report failing on a scientific basis.  Again, on a strictly scientific basis there are a lot of holes and it does fail.  However, it was an investigation about possible cheating and not a pre-planned scientific study.  Thus the findings were, "more probable than not."
> 
> As far as the "doping" of athletes, you can call it cheating, but you can't call it bad science.  The science behind many of the substances being used that are illegal to their particular sports is actually quite remarkable.  Many of those substances (HGH, EPO, steroids, etc.) are used to treat a host of real diseases and they benefit a great many patients.  EPO (the main "doping" agent Lance Armstrong used), for example, is used in a lot of cancer and kidney patients with great results.



_*I'm on record here as being in favor of PED's as long as they're monitored by a physician and don't do permanent harm. I actually don't mind if players or coaches look for edges to help their team and if they're caught it doesn't permanently stain their whole career IMO. Admittedly, though, I'm probably in the minority.*_


That is Bostonians, plural. Not Bostonian's, possessive.

Yes, good for some disease states, but  that wasn't your point of reference.

Back peddling ?

PEDs: http://www.usada.org/substances/effects-of-performance-enhancing-drugs/


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 11, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> _*I'm on record here as being in favor of PED's as long as they're monitored by a physician and don't do permanent harm. I actually don't mind if players or coaches look for edges to help their team and if they're caught it doesn't permanently stain their whole career IMO. Admittedly, though, I'm probably in the minority.*_
> 
> 
> That is Bostonians, plural. Not Bostonian's, possessive.
> ...



Nope. No back peddling.  I stand by my statement and I'm just expounding on it.  I'm in favor of PED's as long as they're scientifically proven, are monitored by a physician, and don't cause permanent harm.  Is that better for you?  

For example, I'm not in favor of bigger, faster and stronger NFL players because of the increased concussion risk.  My favorite time for baseball, however, was when Sosa and McGuire were smashing out those HR's.  That was must see TV.  Now baseball is boring IMO.

Yes, it's true, the language side of my brain ain't mys strong suit.  I scored a perfect 800 on the math portion of the SAT.  The English portion of the SAT - ah not so much.  Guilty as charged.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 12, 2015)

In a bit of irony since Brady was suspended 4 games without pay it will save the Patriots 1.8 million in salary.  They were fined 1 million which means they'll end up making an extra $800,000.  I know that's just peanuts for them, but it is ironic nonetheless.

I'm still surprised the Patriots organization was hit so hard with the loss of those picks.  However, I'm glad the NFL didn't focus on just that one Colts game and came to the conclusion that they've "more probable than not" been deflating footballs for quite a long time.


----------



## Saintsfanfl (May 12, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> In a bit of irony since Brady was suspended 4 games without pay it will save the Patriots 1.8 million in salary.  They were fined 1 million which means they'll end up making an extra $800,000.  I know that's just peanuts for them, but it is ironic nonetheless.
> 
> I'm still surprised the Patriots organization was hit so hard with the loss of those picks.  However, I'm glad the NFL didn't focus on just that one Colts game and came to the conclusion that they've "more probable than not" been deflating footballs for quite a long time.



It will be interesting if the Patriots side with Tom Brady and restructure his contract into a signing bonus with the base at the minimum. If they do this he will only lose $228K. If they do not do this to me it is a big sign that behind the scenes they are not happy with their QB's actions. All the talk by Kraft indicates he is in defiance of the league and supports Brady. We will see if his actions back up his words. 

They basically got slapped on both sides of the face and then punched in the gut on the lost picks. Spygate had a massive impact on the penalties.


----------



## geekette (May 12, 2015)

Rules are in place to ensure fair competition.  Pushing bounds is one thing, but going over the line is cheating and bad sportsmanship.  For professional athletes it's simply unconscionable to me.  I won't be remembering the Pats as a dynasty, I will remember them as habitual cheaters and this last Super Bowl carries a large asterisk.  

I do not believe they cheated in one game only, as I recall there was mention of it being common knowledge around the league that they were doing this.  Too bad it wasn't until a championship game when someone tipped off the officials.  Maybe it took until then to get someone to listen?  I don't know.  

Pats shouldn't have been in the playoffs.  Cheaters should not be in the game.  Tommy has much more smarm than charm.


----------



## Elan (May 12, 2015)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Spygate had a massive impact on the penalties.



  Yep.  There's a pattern of knowingly breaking the rules to gain a competitive advantage.  I don't know how anyone could view the penalty as overly severe given that.


----------



## GregT (May 12, 2015)

geekette said:


> I do not believe they cheated in one game only



I agree and this is real bummer for those of us that have (routinely) lost to the Patriots over the years.  The Chargers lost to the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game played in New England in January 2008, and it makes me wonder if the Patriots were cheating back then.   Chargers lost 21-12  and it's a bummer to think that maybe the Patriots were using a corked bat. 

That was also the year the Patriots went 16-0 in the regular season.  

It really is a shame for their legacy, because they've been so good for so long.

Best,

Greg


----------



## geekette (May 12, 2015)

GregT said:


> I agree and this is real bummer for those of us that have (routinely) lost to the Patriots over the years.  The Chargers lost to the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game played in New England in January 2008, and it makes me wonder if the Patriots were cheating back then.   Chargers lost 21-12  and it's a bummer to think that maybe the Patriots were using a corked bat.
> 
> That was also the year the Patriots went 16-0 in the regular season.
> 
> ...



Or, we only thought they'd been so good.  Makes me wonder what else they've been doing and not caught at.

I'm going to be sore a long time as the Colts should have been in the Super Bowl.  Absolutely, the Pats have harmed the integrity of the game and that cannot be undone.


----------



## #1 Cowboys Fan (May 12, 2015)

I only have one comment to make about all of the hoopla.
(no comment about suspension, penalty, fines, etc---though I do have an  opinion about those too). 

I simply have lost a LOT of respect for Tom Brady as a PERSON (he still is a Great Player.)  It's sad to see......

Pat


----------



## hypnotiq (May 12, 2015)

Some of the fans of the Patriots are the brightest either. :ignore:

Lets crowdfund and raise money to pay for a *billionaires* fine. :rofl:

http://www.gofundme.com/NewEnglandPatriots

$4k raised so far...including this guy, who donated $500 alone. SMH

$500 - Jay Daignault


----------



## hypnotiq (May 12, 2015)

They're interviewing Ted Wells right now. Some really interesting information.



> *Ted Wells (responding to Don Yee comments):* I think it’s wrong to question my independence because you don’t like my findings.
> 
> *Ted Wells:* No one from Brady’s camp raised any issue with my impartiality before investigation. Kraft welcomed my appointment.
> 
> ...


----------



## John Cummings (May 12, 2015)

joewillie12 said:


> ...Some rules may seem minuscule as the air in a football but they are rules that are there to be followed.



This is not minuscule at all. Anybody that has played catch with a football knows that it is much easier to throw and catch if it is under inflated.


----------



## Talent312 (May 12, 2015)

As we (who remember) learned from Watergate:
It's not so much the original crime, but the coverup (or failure to cooperate) that brings the heat.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 12, 2015)

Talent312 said:


> As we (who remember) learned from Watergate:
> It's not so much the original crime, but the coverup (or failure to cooperate) that brings the heat.



I agree that I think it was the cover-up and failure to cooperate that got them hammered.  

However, I hear so many people poo-pooing the "crime" as not being a big deal.

-They beat the Colts by a million points anyway
-They scored more points against the Colts in the 2nd half when the footballs were re-inflated
-They beat the Seahawks in the SB with properly inflated balls
-Who cares about a little air
-The impact on the game is negligible
-Etc., etc., etc.

IMO, I think they've been doing this since 2007 and the advantage they received from it was HUGE.  I think it's much bigger than spygate.

They're lucky Seattle was so injured and handed them that SB because I think they're done winning SB's!  Sure they'll probably still win their lousy division, but they aren't winning another SB.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 12, 2015)

BTW, for those of you who feel sorry for the two equipment guys who were suspended indefinitely, I hope you do realize that Brady completely threw them under the bus.  First he said he didn't even know them when he clearly did.  Secondly he's remaining steadfast that they acted alone without any direction from him.  I hope he's at least paying them well by means of a secondary arrangement.


----------



## SueDonJ (May 12, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> BTW, for those of you who feel sorry for the two equipment guys who were suspended indefinitely, I hope you do realize that Brady completely threw them under the bus.  First he said he didn't even know them when he clearly did.  Secondly he's remaining steadfast that they acted alone without any direction from him.  I hope he's at least paying them well by means of a secondary arrangement.



Yep, no question, Brady's fault.  And them paying for it is just another in a long line of things that show Brady's true character.


----------



## joewillie12 (May 12, 2015)

John Cummings said:


> This is not minuscule at all. Anybody that has played catch with a football knows that it is much easier to throw and catch if it is under inflated.


  even more so in the northeast cold and snow


----------



## geekette (May 13, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> ...IMO, I think they've been doing this since 2007 and the advantage they received from it was HUGE.  I think it's much bigger than spygate.
> 
> They're lucky Seattle was so injured and handed them that SB because I think they're done winning SB's!  Sure they'll probably still win their lousy division, but they aren't winning another SB.



Yep.  I also believe they've been doing this a long time.  If it weren't a big deal, there wouldn't be a rule.  Deliberately and repeatedly breaking the rule is not behavior I expect from those we call Champions.  I do not ever expect to hear again about how the Pats are "a class act."

Seattle had the game, deserved the game, blew it.  Too bad.


----------



## geekette (May 13, 2015)

Talent312 said:


> As we (who remember) learned from Watergate:
> It's not so much the original crime, but the coverup (or failure to cooperate) that brings the heat.



Actually, no, in this case the crime blows away the coverup.  In sports, tampering with equipment is worse than repugnant.  

The coverup didn't help but the punishment, imo, is too light for the crime, cooperation or not.


----------



## DavidnRobin (May 13, 2015)

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/kei...tes-tom-bradys-agent-in-hilarious-open-letter


----------



## x3 skier (May 14, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/kei...tes-tom-bradys-agent-in-hilarious-open-letter



I happen to think Olberman is one of the world's bigger jerks but I though that clip was right on the money. I especially liked the tinfoil hat. 

Cheers


----------



## SMHarman (May 14, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> I happen to think Olberman is one of the world's bigger jerks but I though that clip was right on the money. I especially liked the tinfoil hat.
> 
> Cheers


The Jerk shop called, they are out of you.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 14, 2015)

Wow. The BS contained in the Patriots response to the Wells Report is down right comical. :rofl::rofl:

http://wellsreportcontext.com/

Patriots lawyers say McNally referred to himself as deflator because he was trying to lose weight.....

Right, and if you believe that. I have some oceanfront property in AZ for you. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


----------



## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2015)

You know who should be suspended from football? Pete Carroll for not running the ball at the end of the SB!

Still… why don't teams use the same set of balls?  Having followed football for years - I was not aware of this until deflategate.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 14, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> You know who should be suspended from football? Pete Carroll for not running the ball at the end of the SB!



Agreed. Please dont bring up the SB again. 



DavidnRobin said:


> Still… why don't teams use the same set of balls?  Having followed football for years - I was not aware of this until deflategate.



You're going to love the answer to this...

They did, until 2006.  In 2006, they changed it to where the Offense would now provide their own balls going forward. 

It was championed by two players...want to guess who one of them was?

If you said Tom Brady, you get a cookie!


----------



## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2015)

hypnotiq said:


> It was championed by two players...want to guess who one of them was?
> 
> If you said Tom Brady, you get a cookie!



Wow. Was the other Peyton Manning?
It amazes me that NFL allowed this - for this exact reason.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 14, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> Wow. Was the other Peyton Manning?
> It amazes me that NFL allowed this - for this exact reason.



You get two cookies!


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 14, 2015)

Question: If the Patriots organization did nothing wrong, then why are those 2 Patriot equipment guys suspended indefinitely without pay?


----------



## geekette (May 14, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Question: If the Patriots organization did nothing wrong, then why are those 2 Patriot equipment guys suspended indefinitely without pay?



Yep.  And no one yelling about how unfair it is to them, either.


----------



## ace2000 (May 14, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Question: If the Patriots organization did nothing wrong, then why are those 2 Patriot equipment guys suspended indefinitely without pay?



I'm pretty sure that was part of the NFL punishment.


----------



## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2015)




----------



## Clemson Fan (May 14, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> I'm pretty sure that was part of the NFL punishment.



Nope.  It was completely a club decision and NOT an NFL decision.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mcnally-jastremski-punishment-undermines-patriots-website-2015-5


----------



## ace2000 (May 14, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Nope.  It was completely a club decision and NOT an NFL decision.



You may be right...  I sure don't get it though, it appears to be a combined effort.  Here's what I heard.  



> Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent. If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/c...ent-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-punishment


----------



## x3 skier (May 17, 2015)

*Tom Brady's Super Bowl Ring*

Part of the action by the NFL


----------



## ace2000 (May 19, 2015)

Clemson Fan said:


> Nope.  It was completely a club decision and NOT an NFL decision.



Well here's our answer.  It actually was an NFL decision.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-story-why-2-patriots-135458009.html



> NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York. New England obliged with the NFL's request.


----------



## Mr. Vker (May 19, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Kraft's statement tonight leaves the door open for appeal with that "however" thrown in ...
> 
> _"Despite our conviction that there was no tampering with footballs, it was our intention to accept any discipline levied by the league. Today’s punishment, however, far exceeded any reasonable expectation. It was based completely on circumstantial rather than hard or conclusive evidence."
> 
> ...



Kraft is accepting the decision of the league. No Patriots' appeal.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 19, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Well here's our answer.  It actually was an NFL decision.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-story-why-2-patriots-135458009.html



I believe Schefter.  So I stand corrected.


----------



## Clemson Fan (May 19, 2015)

Mr. Vker said:


> Kraft is accepting the decision of the league. No Patriots' appeal.



Yup, that's very revealing.  They can do all the PR saber rattling they want, but when the rubber meets the road they don't really want to bring this to court.  You see if it goes to court then you must allow further and complete discovery with subpoena powers that the Wells investigation didn't have.  No way they want that.  That's why I'll eat my shirt if Brady ever sues.  There's no way he'll want his cell phone and text messages part of the public record.  Brady will appeal and then he'll accept the final decision whatever it is and move on with no further legal action.


----------



## pedro47 (May 19, 2015)

I feel their move is to late. Fans, NFL teams & others out side of Mass. feels this organization will do anything or what ever it takes to win including cheating at all levels.


----------



## geekette (May 19, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> I feel their move is to late. Fans, NFL teams & others out side of Mass. feels this organization will do anything or what ever it takes to win including cheating at all levels.



Yeah, but it wasn't Deflategate that started it, and I would hold the same opinion regardless of the outcome of this.  they aren't newly dirty.


----------



## "Roger" (May 19, 2015)

Just a comment about the Patriot's lawyer saying McNally referred to himself as the deflator in reference to his losing weight.  Strangely that might be true BUT he could well have done this jokingly given his history of deflating footballs.  When later he started to try to reduce weight, this bizarre reference to loosing weight might simply have been a tongue in cheek remark given that he was trying to do to himself what he had been doing to footballs.

Admittedly speculation, but it is the best explanation I can come up with as to how the lawyers could have put this in their report without outright lying.  What they didn't do (if the above theory is right) is go on to explain how McNally came up with this odd reference to losing weight.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 19, 2015)

Not a chance. Not when you say this after making the "deflator" comment. I'm sure ESPN was interested in hearing about his weight loss. 



> McNally:
> Chill buddy im just f***in with you ....im not going to
> espn........yet


----------



## ace2000 (May 19, 2015)

Unless Brady or the Patriots are paying them off for life, wouldn't the absolute truth eventually come out in the open at some point?  I'm willing to bet it will.


----------



## geekette (May 19, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Unless Brady or the Patriots are paying them off for life, wouldn't the absolute truth eventually come out in the open at some point?  I'm willing to bet it will.



Hmmm, maybe.  I think most involved want it to die and go away.  If there aren't threats and intimidation to keep it quiet, there is simple passage of time and possibility of new scandal squirrel on someone elses field.


----------



## x3 skier (May 19, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Unless Brady or the Patriots are paying them off for life, wouldn't the absolute truth eventually come out in the open at some point?  I'm willing to bet it will.



Seems to me it already has.

Cheers


----------



## ace2000 (May 19, 2015)

geekette said:


> Hmmm, maybe.  I think most involved want it to die and go away.  If there aren't threats and intimidation to keep it quiet, there is simple passage of time and possibility of new scandal squirrel on someone elses field.



Maybe so, but these two are sitting on a million dollar story here.  Someone would be willing to pay them that kind of money for the interview.  I think that fact has to make some nervous, assuming there is a story to tell.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 19, 2015)

Whatever NDA they signed would quickly take any money they made from trying to tell their story. Kraft (I think) is the type that would go after them if they violated the NDA.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2015)

hypnotiq said:


> Whatever NDA they signed would quickly take any money they made from trying to tell their story. Kraft (I think) is the type that would go after them if they violated the NDA.



Definitely, Kraft would not want dirty laundry aired and would go to some lengths to prevent it.  I think that's why he is not appealling Pats smackdown, he doesn't want further probing.


----------



## ace2000 (May 20, 2015)

It's kinda funny, because now Kraft is coming off as looking like a semi "hero" in the whole deal for not pursuing any further action.  There are even stories out that he is putting the NFL ahead of his personal interests, and doesn't want to damage the league any further.  Personally, I'm not buying that nonsense.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 20, 2015)

Nope. My opinion is Kraft agreed w/Roger to not challenge and in exchange Bradys suspension will be reduced.


----------



## SueDonJ (May 20, 2015)

I don't think it's automatic that Kraft made a deal involving Brady.  I think it's as probable that Goodell schooled Kraft on how much more dirt they expect is out there, dirt they'll be able to get their hands on if the Pats were to take the team's ruling out of the commissioner's hands and into a court proceeding.  (For example, Brady's phone could implicate Belicheck through calls/texts to Bill's personal phone as it was only the company phones that Kraft released to Wells.)

The fans around here are obnoxious in their devotion.  It'd be one thing if they'd just acknowledge that they don't care the team is dirty; it's completely another to defend the team to the death that they've done absolutely nothing wrong and this whole mess is simply an unsubstantiated vendetta fueled by jealousy of the team's success.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 20, 2015)

Agreed. I have zero trust in the NFL and the Commissioner doing what is right, which means I fully expect the suspension to be reduced, which I think is ridiculous. I think 4 games is a gift as it is.

IMO if Brady wants to be "considered" for anything less than the 4 games he has already has, he needs to cooperate and turn over the texts/records.  His image is already taking a monumental hit, continuing down this path isn't helping him.

And the majority of Pats fans (I wont say all b/c I know some that are truly ashamed of this) have been overly obnoxious with their tinfoil hats and vendetta theories. They were caught cheating (again!!!). Period.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> It's kinda funny, because now Kraft is coming off as looking like a semi "hero" in the whole deal for not pursuing any further action.  There are even stories out that he is putting the NFL ahead of his personal interests, and doesn't want to damage the league any further.  Personally, I'm not buying that nonsense.



"Hero"?  Oh crap, that's embarrassing.  He should be picking feathers off his plate for having boldly declared NFL owed him an apology.

I so hope that hero was your word vs something you've seen/read where someone is calling him a hero.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2015)

Sue, I appreciate "a local" weighing in.  I am a Colts fan, and while angry that cheaters got away with it, it's several more miles to Hooterville to turn that into jealousy.  I think most sports fans are interested in sportsmanship, rules go for everyone, etc., so I'm sorry to hear many Pats fans don't care how the W is made.  

I agree it's not necessarily that Kraft bargained Brady's suspension down, I like the idea that NFL implied it could get a lot uglier and Kraft backed off.   I think that is quite likely, and I also think Brady's suspension will stand.  There is no hard evidence he was involved but he did not cooperate to the extent of being exonerated, either.  What possible motive for reducing the penalty?  

Frankly, I'm shocked we haven't heard much hubub about role model crap, the kind of thing that's always talked about when someone disappoints (actually a pet peeve of mine, parents should be the role models).  Or are people telling their kids to win at any cost?  Rules are for suckers??





SueDonJ said:


> I don't think it's automatic that Kraft made a deal involving Brady.  I think it's as probable that Goodell schooled Kraft on how much more dirt they expect is out there, dirt they'll be able to get their hands on if the Pats were to take the team's ruling out of the commissioner's hands and into a court proceeding.  (For example, Brady's phone could implicate Belicheck through calls/texts to Bill's personal phone as it was only the company phones that Kraft released to Wells.)
> 
> The fans around here are obnoxious in their devotion.  It'd be one thing if they'd just acknowledge that they don't care the team is dirty; it's completely another to defend the team to the death that they've done absolutely nothing wrong and this whole mess is simply an unsubstantiated vendetta fueled by jealousy of the team's success.


----------



## ace2000 (May 20, 2015)

geekette said:


> "Hero"?  Oh crap, that's embarrassing.  He should be picking feathers off his plate for having boldly declared NFL owed him an apology.
> 
> I so hope that hero was your word vs something you've seen/read where someone is calling him a hero.




Here's the article I read earlier.  Basically saying that Kraft may have put the NFL's well being ahead of the Patriots, and how noble that was.  Of course it's nonsense, and I said that in my previous post.

*If Brady suspension isn't reduced, Kraft puts NFL's well-being above Patriots*

http://www.boston.com/sports/touchi...isnt_reduced_this_is_the_truth_kraft_put.html


----------



## joewillie12 (May 20, 2015)

Kraft finally jumped off his soapbox. He finally realized he is biting the hand that feeds him. I think a few of the other owners plus the commish got his ear this past weekend and said bobby boy what the hell are you doing here. Take your medicine and let it go. Your 31 other brothers [owners] would greatly appreciate not dragging the business, that rains money down upon us in huge amounts, through the mud. Just my opinion.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 20, 2015)

Goodell is speaking after the Spring Meetings right now on ESPN. 

Straight from his mouth:



> The NFL did not ask the Patriots to suspend staffers Jastremski and McNally. That was the teams call.


----------



## Talent312 (May 20, 2015)

And now, for something completely different:

What's absurd is the Giro d'Italia (bicycle race) docking a rider 2 minutes for accepting a tire (his went flat) from a rider of another team. Maybe that's like hitting the wrong ball in golf, but like the International Cycling Union knows sportsmanship. <jus' saying'>
.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Here's the article I read earlier.  Basically saying that Kraft may have put the NFL's well being ahead of the Patriots, and how noble that was.  Of course it's nonsense, and I said that in my previous post.
> 
> *If Brady suspension isn't reduced, Kraft puts NFL's well-being above Patriots*
> 
> http://www.boston.com/sports/touchi...isnt_reduced_this_is_the_truth_kraft_put.html



Oh yes, I know you called it nonsense, I'm simply nauseated by that word hero. Thanks for the link, I saw only a paragraph before someone showed up wanting something so gotta cruise.


----------



## SueDonJ (May 20, 2015)

I'm telling you, the fanatics have lost their minds.  I'm watching the Sox play the Rangers, Xander Bogarts just hit a home run out to the seats over the Green Monster.  A guy in the front row holds up a sign with big block letters:  "FREE BRADY."  <thud>


----------



## "Roger" (Jul 28, 2015)

Four game suspension upheld.

Lack of cooperation?? What is the world coming to when you can't destroy a cell phone that might be used as evidence against you?


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jul 28, 2015)

"Roger" said:


> Four game suspension upheld.
> 
> Lack of cooperation?? What is the world coming to when you can't destroy a cell phone that might be used as evidence against you?



I can't wait to see what happens next!

I really think the suspension was going to be reduced, but all the rhetoric coming out of Brady's camp was that unless there was a complete exoneration he was going to take the NFL to court.  So if that's the case, then there's really no reason for the NFL to reduce the suspension.

I think there will be a lot of chain rattling and threats to come out of the Brady camp in the next month, but in the end he'll pull a Robert Kraft and just accept it "for the good of the game".  I don't think he really wants to take it to court with the courts subpoena powers.


----------



## geekette (Jul 28, 2015)

He got off easy.  If integrity of the game is everything, then how can this be fitting punishment?

Destroying cell phone was new info (to me).  That was really stupid if he was trying to avoid looking guilty.


----------



## x3 skier (Jul 28, 2015)

Maybe he can join Pete Rose on the autograph circuit for a bit. Rose can sign baseballs and Brady can sign deflated footballs.

Cheers


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jul 28, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> Maybe he can join Pete Rose on the autograph circuit for a bit. Rose can sign baseballs and Brady can sign deflated footballs.
> 
> Cheers



There is a new vernacular developing.  My kids were playing football and one of the footballs was soft and squishy and they said "let's use the Brady ball".


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## Talent312 (Jul 29, 2015)

There was this question on a "Family Feud" episode featuring football celebrities:
What can be inflated and deflated?... Footballs was one answer. Another was egos.
.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 3, 2015)

*ggggggrrrrrrrrr!!!!!*


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## theo (Sep 3, 2015)

*Inevitable result?*

I've just finished reading the entire 40 page decision of Judge Berman, which was determined and issued largely on valid and important on points of law (...which, after all, is what judges are inclined and supposed to do). It's very ironic (and frankly, almost humorous) that the NFL had immediately and very aggressively sought to get this case filed in its' own NFL / Goodell "home turf" of NY --- only to ultimately be flat out *bludgeoned* by the court they had so energetically (and successfully) "cherry picked".  

Like it or not, the NFL (certainly including, but not limited to, Roger Goodell) clearly did nearly *everything* wrong and did nearly *nothing* right in either the course of their (...ahem) "investigation" *or* in the unwise, stilted and biased public statements and unfounded conclusions by Goodell regarding his plainly subjective and very convenient (but entirely unsubstantiated) interpretation of a truly shoddy product. Access to a prime witness (Pash, who actually helped "edit" the Wells report on behalf of the NFL) was completely *denied* to the player side as a witness throughout the entire case --- a huge mistake by (and a truly fatal legal flaw in and of itself to) the NFL side. 

Frankly, I don't see how Judge Berman could *possibly* have ruled any other way on the shoddy, stilted, evidentiary farce and situation brought before him for a ruling. 

To borrow (...again) from Randy Newman, for Tom Brady I guess "It's [still] lonely at the top".  
P.S. I wonder if Goodell is working on his resume, even as we speak. He *should* be, 'tho with the many millions he's been (over)paid, he doesn't  "need" alternative work.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 3, 2015)

theo said:


> I've just finished reading the entire 40 pages of Judge Berman's decision, which was determined and issued largely on valid and important on points of law (...which, after all, is what judges are inclined to do). It's very ironic (and frankly, almost humorous) that the NFL so immediately and so very aggressively got this case filed its' chosen,  NFL / Goodell "home turf" of NY --- only to ultimately be just flat out bludgeoned by the court they so aggressively sought.
> 
> Like it or not, the NFL (certainly including but not limited to Roger Goodell) clearly did nearly *everything* wrong and nearly *nothing* right in either the course of their (...ahem) "investigation" or in the stilted and biased public statements and conclusions by Goodell regarding  their own subjective and convenient interpretation of a shoddy product. Access to a prime witness (Pash, who actually helped to "edit" the Wells report on behalf of the NFL) was completely denied to the player side --- a huge mistake by (and a truly fatal flaw to) the NFL side, in and of itself.
> 
> ...



I agree.  The NFL botched this right from the start like they've botched many of the recent incidents put before them.  I'm aggravated with them as much as with the whackos calling in to talkradio today.


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## x3 skier (Sep 3, 2015)

Just one of the many reasons I no longer pay any attention to ANY pro sports. It's all only marginally better than pro wrestling.

Cheers


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## ace2000 (Sep 3, 2015)

My two cents... just glad it's resolved.  I'm tired of the story.  I think he's guilty but unless there was definitive proof, this was probably the best outcome.  His legacy is diminished.


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## PigsDad (Sep 3, 2015)

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## "Roger" (Sep 4, 2015)

I have no idea what will happen, but here is one opinion claiming that the recent ruling will be overturned.


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## theo (Sep 4, 2015)

"Roger" said:


> I have no idea what will happen, but here [see link in post directly above] is one opinion claiming that the recent ruling will be overturned.



The cited article makes for interesting reading, but I am prompted to wonder if the author ever actually *read* the (40 pages) decision of Judge Richard Berman.
When I did so, I was surprised by the number of specific references to NFL non-compliance with various matters of law, each with an accompanying U.S. Code cite.

Personally, I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that this ruling and decision can or will *ever* be overturned on appeal if / when it actually gets reviewed in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in the first place and not just quietly dropped before then by the (perhaps a bit humbled) NFL.

Aside from who knew / did / said / hid / what in this matter, this court decision is just a flat out *spanking* of the NFL *and* its' disciplinary process, which clearly needs substantive overhaul (and then actual adherence thereto) if the NFL ever wants to impose penalties fairly and / or have any hope of making them "stick" in the future.

Just my personal opinion. YMMV.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 25, 2016)

Appeals court: QB Tom Brady must serve 'Deflategate' penalty

SportsTalk Radio is having another ridiculous day today - very entertaining!  

Oh, and I am thrilled anytime the obnoxiously obnoxious Patriots and their fans come out on the losing end.


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## Talent312 (Apr 25, 2016)

theo said:


> ...Personally, I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that this ruling and decision can or will *ever* be overturned on appeal...



Well, theo, how does it feel to have egg on your face <figuratively>?


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## x3 skier (Apr 25, 2016)

Sounds like it was really 3-0 against Brady and the NFLPA because the dissent seemed to about the actual penalty, not if any was deserved at all. I'm not a lawyer but I've never slept in a Holiday Inn Express either.

Cheers


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## theo (Apr 25, 2016)

Talent312 said:


> Well, theo, how does it feel to have egg on your face <figuratively>?



In a word --- humbling (...and thank you for asking ), particularly after having thoroughly read Judge Berman's outright *spanking* of the NFL in his earlier ruling. 
I do not actually count myself among the rabid Patriots devotees for whom SueDonJ so consistently (and so gratuitously) expresses limitless and unmitigated disdain, so my own personal reaction to today's events is actually somewhat tempered and largely one of surprise from a legal perspective.  

The Second Circuit Court of Appeals (split) decision essentially upholds NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's authority to impose whatever he damn well pleases for penalties. The fact that Tom Brady inexplicably destroyed his cell phone (i.e., potential evidence) has now certainly come back to bite Brady in  the butt, essentially creating (whether inadvertently or deliberately matters not at all at this point) an "inference" of having had "something to hide". All in all, certainly not an illogical inference --- so be it. 

It remains to be seen what happens next. Brady certainly has additional avenues of appeal, but it might not be in his (or his teams') best interests to prolong the agony.  Goodell could "forgive" the suspension after the other punitive measures already imposed (big team fine, loss of first round draft pick), but Goodell "forgiving"  the suspension is about as likely as a meteor striking the Earth today, IMnsHO. Brady might now opt to drop this and just "sit" for the first four games of the coming season, but I am frankly inclined to doubt that he would or will choose any such passive option. Just as a casual NFL observer, I would still be comfortable predicting a 11-5 (or better) record and a playoff berth for the N.E. Patriots in the coming season, *with or without* Tom Brady "warming the pine" for the first four games of the season.  

We'll see. Maybe I'm inviting wearing *more* "egg on my face", but what the heck. We're all entitled to have (and to express) a viewpoint --- and to risk being wrong.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 25, 2016)

theo said:


> ... I do not actually count myself among the rabid Patriots devotees for whom SueDonJ so consistently (and so gratuitously) expresses limitless and unmitigated disdain, ...



I'm sorry, Theo, if I gave you or anyone the impression that I was counting you among the "obnoxious" fans.  I'm sure you're hearing some of the same things I'm hearing; to me it's almost scary how nutty some people are about all this.  Believe me, I haven't lumped your rational thought processes with the irrationality coming from the whackos, not at all.

*****
I'm finding a sort of poetic justice here in that Brady has never been a voice for the Players' Union, but he almost has to continue this fight if the union is ever going to have any success at rewriting the CBA as it stands today.  They certainly can't want to continue with it, not when a Court ruling has come down in favor of the power it gives to the Commissioner.  If two years ago there'd been a discussion about the union trying to re-negotiate the CBA Brady's name would never have come up as the catalyst or the spokesperson.


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## davidvel (Apr 25, 2016)

Too tired to read all the previous posts. I think I commented on earlier threads that I was a bit shocked from a legal perspective that the district court applied a trial court standard to the CBA, basically ruling that the mutually agreed authority of the Commissioner didn't count. 

I doubt this is over, they'll continue to play the game and time the appeals so he'll play. If you read the ruling itself it's a bit of a slap-down of the trial judge.


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## Kal (Apr 25, 2016)

All they can do is appeal to the Supreme Court.  If the court rejects taking the case, that's the end of the road.

 If they start the process now, upon rejection, the penalty will start.  If that occurs in the next few months, he's out the first 4 games of the 2016 season.  If mid-season then he is out 4 games at that point.  If the rejection occurs after the 2016 season, he will be out the first 4 games of the 2017 season.

 So the team probably needs to look at the schedule to guess when it would be best for him to sit.


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## Talent312 (Apr 26, 2016)

The Supremes won't take this case. There's no earth-shaking issue of public policy involved. The Players Assoc could try an an end-around this 3-judge panel by asking for an en banc rehearing by the all the judges of the circuit court of appeals, but that's rarely granted.

The NFL just put one thru the up-rights with 2 seconds remaining.
.


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## theo (Apr 26, 2016)

Talent312 said:


> The Supremes won't take this case. There's no earth-shaking issue of public policy involved.



Agreed. No chance that the U. S. Supreme Court would ever agree to hear this case --- and very little likelihood of ever even being asked to do so. 



> The Players Assoc could try an an end-around this 3-judge panel by asking for an en banc rehearing by the all the judges of the circuit court of appeals, but that's rarely granted.



Dunno, but do wonder. The dissenting view among the (3) judges hearing the appeal was in fact that of the *Chief* *Justice* who, in his (9 pages) dissenting opinion, overtly expressed concern about "fairness" in the seemingly "selective" application of penalties (...while also reaffirming the NFL Commissioner's authority to *impose* penalties).  

Interesting, to be sure --- and likely not yet over. Please excuse me now while I try to decide whether to *eat* or to *wear* my breakfast eggs this morning.


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