# Buyer’s Remorse



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

We owned a 2BR Gold with 5000 points in Orlando and today we upgraded to a 2BR Platinum with 7000 points. Total for the upgrade is $17 000. I just found this site and reading through I am wondering if we should not have bought new. I understand how someone who doesn’t own a TS can buy one after market for $1 a point but can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS? Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!


----------



## travelhacker (Jul 31, 2019)

First things first, you need to rescind. 

I'm glad you came here. Others will come along with great specific advice for how to rescind. You should be able to get a 7000 point Orlando week for somewhere around 5-8K, and you won't have to give up your Gold Week. If you just want 7000 points, you should be able to sell your 5000 point Orlando week without too much trouble, and you'll be FAR better off. 

Do NOT call your sales agent (since they have the most to lose by rescinding). 

Time is of the essense with the recission period, you have 10 days to do so. I would search "rescind" in the search bar and you should get plenty of great advice for how to do so.


----------



## dayooper (Jul 31, 2019)

Recind, research, resale.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 31, 2019)

Ouch that is a lot of $$$$

I love HGVC, but bought resale for about $1 per point - thys $17,000 will buy you 17,000 points

I would cancel and follow the instructions exactly on how to rescind.

Did you pay in full or take payments? What interest rate are they charging?


----------



## Ianneyan (Jul 31, 2019)

Rescind asap!


----------



## jjking42 (Jul 31, 2019)

Rescind ASAP


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> Ouch that is a lot of $$$$
> 
> I love HGVC, but bought resale for about $1 per point - thys $17,000 will buy you 17,000 points
> 
> ...



We took payments at 10.4% but we were planning to pay in full in a month.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

I did several searches for “rescind” on TUG and can’t seem to find the instructions anywhere.


----------



## jjking42 (Jul 31, 2019)

There should be instructions with your purchase paperwork. Do not call and speak to the sales man . They will lie and string you along until it’s too late and you can’t cancel. Read this thread

https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...-rescind-cancel-my-timeshare-purchase.189301/


----------



## jjking42 (Jul 31, 2019)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/cancel_timeshare_purchase.html


----------



## Talent312 (Jul 31, 2019)

In your sales contract there are instructions on how to rescind.
Follow them eggsactly. ID the contract & include a copy of the face-page.
All who signed the contract must sign the letter. Use certified mail.

Owning two TS's is not so terrible. I own three. Some own many more.
But if you only want one, you can sell it yourself & use a transfer service.
You can advertise it in the marketplace here, on Redweek, or eBay...
Or use a broker like www.judikoz.com or www.sellingtimeshares.net
For transfers, the most recommended outfit is LT Transfers.

.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> We owned a 2BR Gold with 5000 points in Orlando and today we upgraded to a 2BR Platinum with 7000 points. Total for the upgrade is $17 000. I just found this site and reading through I am wondering if we should not have bought new. I understand how someone who doesn’t own a TS can buy one after market for $1 a point but can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS? Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!





You work hard for your money.  Keep your hands in your pockets and RESCIND immediately.   Use USPS Certified Mail to send in your rescission.  You will thank us forever.

Do some research and you will find what you just purchased can actually be obtained for pennies on the dollar.

It's a no brainer!

Keep us posted.




.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> There should be instructions with your purchase paperwork. Do not call and speak to the sales man . They will lie and string you along until it’s too late and you can’t cancel. Read this thread
> 
> https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...-rescind-cancel-my-timeshare-purchase.189301/



Thank you for the info. I have a few more questions if you don’t mind. What happens after I rescind? Does it go back to what we had before? So we would go back to a 2BR Gold week 5000 points? Is that possible since we technically sold the deed back to them and bought a new 2BR Platinum 7000 points at a different resort. And if we go back to what we had isn’t it hard to sell because it is Gold and not Platinum? We still owe 8K on that one so would it make more sense to keep it and then buy a 2BR Platinum with the 17K we saved? But then we have 2 MFs so that’s like 2.5K a year. I really appreciate your help and sorry for being clueless.


----------



## ocdb8r (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> Thank you for the info. I have a few more questions if you don’t mind. What happens after I rescind? Does it go back to what we had before? So we would go back to a 2BR Gold week 5000 points? Is that possible since we technically sold the deed back to them and bought a new 2BR Platinum 7000 points at a different resort. And if we go back to what we had isn’t it hard to sell because it is Gold and not Platinum? We still owe 8K on that one so would it make more sense to keep it and then buy a 2BR Platinum with the 17K we saved? But then we have 2 MFs so that’s like 2.5K a year. I really appreciate your help and sorry for being clueless.



Nothing to be sorry about!

Just so everyone here is clear - when you upgraded, did they relieve you of the 8k balance on the original Gold week?  What was the total you owed after the transaction (17k or 17K+8k balance on the original week)?


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> Thank you for the info. I have a few more questions if you don’t mind. What happens after I rescind? Does it go back to what we had before? So we would go back to a 2BR Gold week 5000 points? Is that possible since we technically sold the deed back to them and bought a new 2BR Platinum 7000 points at a different resort. And if we go back to what we had isn’t it hard to sell because it is Gold and not Platinum? We still owe 8K on that one so would it make more sense to keep it and then buy a 2BR Platinum with the 17K we saved? But then we have 2 MFs so that’s like 2.5K a year. I really appreciate your help and sorry for being clueless.



You should revert back to your original contract.

If you want more points, then buy them resale. You can buy 5,000 gold or 7,000 platinum or more or less (lots of options)

Do not worry about future resale value, just assume you will probably sell for break even on your resale, I am not sure if you will ever get your original purchase from hilton price back, and for sure you will never get back $17,000 for 7,000 points in Orlando

You can buy resale from Las vegas as that is currently a good deal or just buy more from Orlando. the choice is yours

Who cares about 2 MF as all your points are the same at 9 months. Annual dues are about 15 cent per point on average. Thus 
5,000 points = $750
7,000 points =$1050
12,000 points = $1800

I am not sure where your $2,500 estimate is coming from


----------



## jjking42 (Jul 31, 2019)

you would cancel the platinum week and get the gold week back . The gold week has some resale value and you should be able to sell it but for much  less than the 8k you owe on it. Best to just keep it and use it. Pay it off as fast as possible. Once the gold week  is paid off you can decide to keep or sell.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

ocdb8r said:


> Nothing to be sorry about!
> 
> Just so everyone here is clear - when you upgraded, did they relieve you of the 8k balance on the original Gold week?  What was the total you owed after the transaction (17k or 17K+8k balance on the original week)?



No they did not so total is 25K


----------



## Talent312 (Jul 31, 2019)

HGVC won't "close" the deal until after the rescind period has passed and time for mail to arrive. They'll prolly just circular file your paperwork and everything should revert to the way it was. If there are issues, follow up with the real estate office, not the sales office.

You can't sell a TS with a mortgage on it, so either:
1. Make use of it until it's paid off (then keep or sell).
B. Refinance with a personal loan or HELOC on your current home (then keep or sell).
-- _This might also reduce your interest rate.
,_


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> You should revert back to your original contract.
> 
> If you want more points, then buy them resale. You can buy 5,000 gold or 7,000 platinum or more or less (lots of options)
> 
> ...



The 2BR Parc Soleil MF is $1500 and the 2BR Sea World is $1200. So if we owned both it would be $2700 MFs annually.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> The 2BR Parc Soleil MF is $1500 and the 2BR Sea World is $1200. So if we owned both it would be $2700 MFs annually.



What is breakdown of MF to points owned


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 31, 2019)

The definition of 'rescission' is to set affairs back to before the purchase as if it never happened. So send a simple 'I/We wish to cancel and rescind the purchase of #_______________ Dated_________________ Signed Husband_______ Wife__________.

It need be no more complicated than this. Send it USPS Certified. And you're done.

Then consider blowing $15 to join TUG as a member. It's the best timesharing money you can spend to give you access to thousands of reviews, sightings of hard-to-get resorts, and much more.

Welcome to TUG!

Jim


----------



## JIMinNC (Jul 31, 2019)

I'll add one other recommendation...in the future, never finance a timeshare purchase. If you can't afford to pay cash, you can't afford it. Financing means you are stuck with it, can't sell it, and the interest rates are usually high. Generally a bad deal any way you look at it. If I understand correctly, after the deal you just did, you now owe $25,000 on the two weeks. The value of those two weeks combined is probably $8000 or less, so you are $17,000 "under water" from the start.

So, rescind; keep what you have until you pay it off; and then maybe buy a resale week if you need a second week, can pay cash for it, and can afford the maintenance fees for both.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> What is breakdown of MF to points owned



The 2BR Parc Soleil $1500 MF is Gold and 5000 points. The 2BR SeaWorld $1200 MF Platinum and 7000 points. SeaWorld has lower MF for a 2BR.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> The definition of 'rescission' is to set affairs back to before the purchase as if it never happened. So send a simple 'I/We wish to cancel and rescind the purchase of #_______________ Dated_________________ Signed Husband_______ Wife__________.
> 
> It need be no more complicated than this. Send it USPS Certified. And you're done.
> 
> ...



I will definitely do that!! I am so grateful to have found this site!


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I'll add one other recommendation...in the future, never finance a timeshare purchase. If you can't afford to pay cash, you can't afford it. Financing means you are stuck with it, can't sell it, and the interest rates are usually high. Generally a bad deal any way you look at it. If I understand correctly, after the deal you just did, you now owe $25,000 on the two weeks. The value of those two weeks combined is probably $8000 or less, so you are $17,000 "under water" from the start.
> 
> So, rescind; keep what you have until you pay it off; and then maybe buy a resale week if you need a second week, can pay cash for it, and can afford the maintenance fees for both.



Great advice! That is exactly what I am going to do!


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> The 2BR Parc Soleil $1500 MF is Gold and 5000 points. The 2BR SeaWorld $1200 MF Platinum and 7000 points. SeaWorld has lower MF for a 2BR.



wow...parc soleil is 30c per point (mega high) and SeaWorld is 17c (reasonable)

I personally would sell Parc Soleil asap (unless there is some compelling reason to own such as annual conference at convention center) and buy SeaWorld or las Vegas or Big Island Hawaii.

Platinum or Plat plus weeks have lower cost of annual dues per point than gold weeks, but cost more to buy per point

Or simply HOLD your Parc Soleil and buy a 7,000 point platinum week and blend the two annual dues

$1500 + $1200 / 12,000 = 22.5 cents per point

I all depends on how long you plan to be a member as the longer it is the more you want low dues and the shorter it is the more you want to buy a cheap trader and not worry about dues as much


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> wow...parc soleil is 30c per point (mega high) and SeaWorld is 17c (reasonable)
> 
> I personally would sell Parc Soleil asap (unless there is some compelling reason to own such as annual conference at convention center) and buy SeaWorld or las Vegas or Big Island Hawaii.
> 
> ...



That sounds like what we would want to do. We love HGVC and plan to own long term. If I had the 2 TS and 12 000 points, would it show up as having 12 000 points total available in my account? So I could book pretty much anything I want in the Platinum season? Thanks a million for all the advice!


----------



## ocdb8r (Jul 31, 2019)

Ok, I think others have given you the big picture.  Rescind NOW.  Then you have some decisions to make:

1) Leave things the way they were...enjoy your 5000 points to the best of your ability.

2) If you're intent on owning new points, you're not going to be able to finance a resale purchase (at least not in the traditional sense).  You'll need to:
a) pay off the mortgage balance on your existing Gold week;
b) sell your existing Gold week at a loss (unless you want to keep it);
c) have cash available to purchase a resale Platinum contract (which you should be able to find at $1/point or less if you really scour and can be patient for a good deal).

At the end of the day, you'll be out approximately $13-14k total (8k to pay off existing loan+7k for a resale 7000 point contract minus the $1500 to $2000 you should be able get for the Gold week if you sell it).

If you keep both weeks, you'll be out $15-16K total....but you'll have 12k points (and double overall maintenance fees)

In both cases you're WAY better off than what HGVC sold you direct!


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS?* Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule* where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!


It wasn't totally clear where you bought this upgrade, but if it's in Florida, the rescission period is 10 days. This time frame varies by state. For instance if you bought in Nevada it'd be just 5 days. But do us (and yourselves) a favor and don't wait. Write the letter and get it in the mail.

Jim


----------



## ocdb8r (Jul 31, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> But do us (and yourselves) a favor and don't wait. Write the letter and get it in the mail.



CERTIFIED MAIL with RETURN RECEIPT so you have proof!


----------



## JIMinNC (Jul 31, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> wow...parc soleil is 30c per point (mega high) and SeaWorld is 17c (reasonable)
> 
> I personally would sell Parc Soleil asap (unless there is some compelling reason to own such as annual conference at convention center) and buy SeaWorld or las Vegas or Big Island Hawaii.



Parc Soleil is high, but that is exacerbated because it's a Gold week with basically the same maintenance fee as a Platinum week.

The OP said they still owe $8000 on their 5000 point week, so they would have to pay that off to sell it. That might be a constraint that could make it hard to do, depending on their ability to pay it off and take the immediate loss.


----------



## terces (Jul 31, 2019)

Here is a deal I am very happy with - $8000 for 7000 points at Las Vegas Boulevard includes use of 2019 points that the previous owner paid the MF's for, so net cost was $8000 - 854 = $7146, therefore bang on $1 per point.  Annual fees are $854 = 12.14 cents per point.  The Boulevard in my opinion has an under-funded Reserve Fund so there is a tiny bit of liability, but overall this is a powerful trading tool and I can generally book 1 bedroom with full kitchen, outstanding accommodation, in numerous high quality HGVC resorts for under $100 per day.


----------



## OldGuy (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> Any thoughts on all this?



I'll be as delicate as I can be, and I hope you don't take it  personally, because I don't know you personally, but your post makes it obvious that you have a lot to learn.

So, like 100% have, or will, say, rescind.

Then learn.

Here, maybe this will soften my words>>>>>>>


----------



## GT75 (Jul 31, 2019)

I will add to the others and strongly suggest that you rescind.    Once that is completed then take your time and research what would be best for you and your family.    We have some great HGVC tug members who are all willing to help.    In addition, we have some good resources.


----------



## Mylene (Jul 31, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I'll be as delicate as I can be, and I hope you don't take it  personally, because I don't know you personally, but your post makes it obvious that you have a lot to learn.
> 
> So, like 100% have, or will, say, rescind.
> 
> ...



I am not offended at all. You are completely right. Until yesterday I had no idea that there was a resale market out there. So indeed I have a lot to learn and happily doing so


----------



## brp (Jul 31, 2019)

OK, stop posting and rescind. Then come back 

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Jul 31, 2019)

Mylene said:


> I am not offended at all. You are completely right. Until yesterday I had no idea that there was a resale market out there. So indeed I have a lot to learn and happily doing so



The timeshare industry relies on customers/owners/prospects not being informed.  Even with how easy it is to be nowadays, most probably aren't.


----------



## GTLINZ (Aug 1, 2019)

Mylene said:


> Until yesterday I had no idea that there was a resale market out there. So indeed I have a lot to learn and happily doing so



It is like the words in the song Hotel California - you have to find the passage back to the place you were before - and that passage is rescinding! You have plenty of time AFTER to figure it all out. All focus now is on RESCINDING.

It is a very good thing you found Tug now while you can still RESCIND.

I bought a sampler package in 2005, found Tug, RECINDED that and used it to purchase resale after a lot of research.

And God Bless Tug - everyone !


----------



## GMan82 (Aug 1, 2019)

I second, third, and fourth everyone’s response. I bought 8400 points from the developer and learned a hard lesson. I didn’t know to rescind, but was able to pay it off over 3 months, doing all I could to cushion the blow (funneling through Hilton AMEX surpass for the points + status, enjoying great upgrades to suites in the US and abroad, and free wekeend nights etc) and have been thoroughly enjoying my HGV points. 

However, since HGV doesn’t really differentiate retail vs resale owners at a level that’s worth anything, I suggest buying resale for any other points you require. That’s what I’ll do. I don’t mind the sales presentations as much now, so I take advantage of the owner updates for the perks, but more for the ridiculously reduced rates at some nice places. 

The links mentioned above seem to be repeated often on this board. So I’d listen to the experienced members here. 

Pay off the loan, and enjoy the product. Buy more points on the resale market.


----------



## CPNY (Aug 1, 2019)

Mylene said:


> We owned a 2BR Gold with 5000 points in Orlando and today we upgraded to a 2BR Platinum with 7000 points. Total for the upgrade is $17 000. I just found this site and reading through I am wondering if we should not have bought new. I understand how someone who doesn’t own a TS can buy one after market for $1 a point but can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS? Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!



Rescind this ASAP. Follow everyone’s advice and the exact instructions on rescinding. Do it the right way with proof of rescission. Then buy resale.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 1, 2019)

Speaking of rescinding, and repeating myself, there has been an movement underway to allow rescinding any time before the first use of a timeshare.  If it wasn't for the lobbying of ARDA, Arizona would have put that into law this year.

So, reality is not lost on lawmakers, and they are realizing that 5 or 7 or 10 days does absolutely nothing to help the buyer know what they actually bought.  It is a cooling-down period, and nothing more.  In the case of Arizona, it was a lawmaker who had gotten screwed buying a timeshare, then realizing there was nothing available to help her.

More real reality is it takes actual use to know, and then when things get changed on the buyer, should they have a right to rescind on that.

I'm not trying to be scary; I'm just saying that with 1.5 million dissatisfied timeshare owners, lawmakers will realize that what is is not doing the job, so, unless the industry does . . . .


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 1, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Speaking of rescinding, and repeating myself, there has been an movement underway to allow rescinding any time before the first use of a timeshare.  If it wasn't for the lobbying of ARDA, Arizona would have put that into law this year.
> 
> So, reality is not lost on lawmakers, and they are realizing that 5 or 7 or 10 days does absolutely nothing to help the buyer know what they actually bought.  In the case of Arizona, it was a lawmaker who had gotten screwed buying a timeshare, then realizing there was nothing available to help her.
> 
> ...



I suspect the campaign contributions from ARDA and their PAC will have more influence on lawmakers than 1.5 million timeshare owners.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 1, 2019)

It did in Arizona, even when the bill's sponsor was one of the 1.5 million.

They did get some more stringent consumer protections passed, though.


----------



## brp (Aug 1, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Speaking of rescinding, and repeating myself, there has been an movement underway to allow rescinding any time before the first use of a timeshare.  If it wasn't for the lobbying of ARDA, Arizona would have put that into law this year.



I actually don't agree with this. I think that folks have to take some responsibility for their actions, and this, to me, seems unreasonable to the timeshare sales folks. And I say this as someone who doesn't like the salesweasels, in general.

Maybe something like 30 days.

Cheers.


----------



## Wgk101 (Aug 1, 2019)

Even if they increased the time for rescission, there would still be buyers , who at the 25 day out of thirty rescission period asking this board what they should do


----------



## brp (Aug 1, 2019)

Wgk101 said:


> Even if they increased the time for rescission, there would still be buyers , who at the 25 day out of thirty rescission period asking this board what they should do



Agreed. There would. There will always be people who buy something and then have second thoughts. These things usually have fixed (relatively short) return periods during which people can re-evaluate their purchase decisions.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 1, 2019)

Buying a timeshare is not like buying anything else that I can think of.  At best, buyers have a vague idea of what they think they bought.

There's not many things you buy that you don't really know what you bought for a long, long time, and, then, so often it is not what it was represented to be.

Not my opinion . . . the actual words of thousands of buyers when you peruse things like BBB complaints, or google something like WXYZGate or ABCDGreen Complaints.

So many of the _deadbeats_ trying to unload their timeshares say exactly that, that when they tried to use it, they couldn't, or couldn't get what they were told they could, etc.

That is the issue lawmakers will address if the industry doesn't.

(Not how long the cooling-off period should be.)


----------



## brp (Aug 1, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Buying a timeshare is not like buying anything else that I can think of.  At best, buyers have a vague idea of what they think they bought.



Except that information exists if people make the effort to find it.

In any event, that's my opinion, and I expected most/all here to disagree.

Cheers.


----------



## PigsDad (Aug 1, 2019)

brp said:


> Except that information exists if people make the effort to find it.
> 
> In any event, that's my opinion, and I expected most/all here to disagree.


I agree with you!  My personal experience is that I researched the s**t out of it before I purchased.  Maybe that is why I tend to have little sympathy for those who play the victim card when they never did any research or even read the contract before the recession date.  I'm not saying that the timeshare sales staff are angels, but people need take ownership of their decisions in the end.  It's not like anyone held a gun to their head to sign and never do any research of their own.  JMHO.

Kurt


----------



## dayooper (Aug 1, 2019)

brp said:


> I actually don't agree with this. I think that folks have to take some responsibility for their actions, and this, to me, seems unreasonable to the timeshare sales folks. And I say this as someone who doesn't like the salesweasels, in general.
> 
> Maybe something like 30 days.
> 
> Cheers.



Yes, I agree, people need to take responsibility for their actions, but why don’t the developers and salesman have to take responsibility for what they say?


----------



## brp (Aug 1, 2019)

dayooper said:


> Yes, I agree, people need to take responsibility for their actions, but why don’t the developers and salesman have to take responsibility for what they say?



Ethically, they do. Legally, they don't as anything not written is not binding. As I said, I don't like them (as a general rule, some are very nice). But the information on the differences between what they say and what is real is available.

I'd favor a law that made more of what is said binding, but that would be hard to implement.

Cheers.


----------



## dayooper (Aug 1, 2019)

brp said:


> Ethically, they do. Legally, they don't as anything not written is not binding. As I said, I don't like them (as a general rule, some are very nice). But the information on the differences between what they say and what is real is available.
> 
> I'd favor a law that made more of what is said binding, but that would be hard to implement.
> 
> Cheers.



While I agree with your premise of personal accountability, corporations and those they represent them need to have accountability too. They system is gamed toward the corporations as they can say anything, true or not to convince people to purchase. There are so many topics where the truth is stretched, twisted and flat out made up that it’s not ethical to expect someone to look up every single thing a salesman said, even afterward. Yes, people shouldn’t purchase without studying it first but what some of these salesman do is nothing more than a con.

I believe a start would be to have the sales presentations recorded. Yes, there would be a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that would have to be figured out. I have ideas, but I’m no lawyer (nor would I want to be one) so I will leave them in my head for now. I agree that both parties need to be held accountable, but truth in what is said needs to happen in this arena.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

brp said:


> Ethically, they do. Legally, they don't as anything not written is not binding. As I said, I don't like them (as a general rule, some are very nice). But the information on the differences between what they say and what is real is available.
> 
> I'd favor a law that made more of what is said binding, but that would be hard to implement.
> 
> Cheers.



Stay at a Holiday Inn Express?


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

dayooper said:


> While I agree with your premise of personal accountability, corporations and those they represent them need to have accountability too. They system is gamed toward the corporations as they can say anything, true or not to convince people to purchase. There are so many topics where the truth is stretched, twisted and flat out made up that it’s not ethical to expect someone to look up every single thing a salesman said, even afterward. Yes, people shouldn’t purchase without studying it first but what some of these salesman do is nothing more than a con.
> 
> I believe a start would be to have the sales presentations recorded. Yes, there would be a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that would have to be figured out. I have ideas, but I’m no lawyer (nor would I want to be one) so I will leave them in my head for now. I agree that both parties need to be held accountable, but truth in what is said needs to happen in this arena.



Chill.  Be patient.

When an entire industry _misbehaves, _and fails to police itself, someone will, when enough consumers are hurt.  1.5 million households does not appear to be enough, but maybe enough to draw attention to it.


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Chill.  Be patient.
> 
> When an entire industry _misbehaves, _and fails to police itself, someone will, when enough consumers are hurt.  1.5 million households does not appear to be enough.



Interesting viewpoint. I have no vested interest since I know how to find information, so nothing to be patient about.
We shall see.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

brp said:


> I know how to find information



Like this?

*A few weeks ago, we published an article regarding the state of timeshare sales presentations in Arizona. Since the early stages of timesharing, contract disclosure has been a problem in the industry. Although many lawmakers with stakes in fractional ownership wanted to fault buyers for making impulse decisions, the State of Arizona agreed that disclosure laws were necessary. They also determined that extending a buyer’s right to rescission (cancellation period) was needed as well.

Today, tens of thousands of timeshare owners claim they would have never made the purchase if they knew what it really entailed. Whether this is their fault or not, they now have added protections that force timeshare companies to provide more information on the front end and additional time to make the decision final.

The passing of this law is a big deal for consumer advocates who have been stating the obvious for quite some time now. Buyers now have a better chance to get out of something that can be perpetually difficult to deal with. Aside from post-purchase advantages, the law also applies to anyone planning on attending a timeshare presentation. Arizona residents are nationally protected. Sponsor and Republican, Shawnna Bolik believes the decision makes the state “a national leader in enacting consumer protections for timeshare buyers,” and that the bill help “curb deceptive practices by some in the timeshare industry.”

While consumers definitely won here, timeshare representatives were able to strip some of the original provisions by persuading lawmakers to combat the proposal. Senator Michelle Ugenti-Rita once again stood with the opposition. In the end, they were able to keep the law from including an ability for consumers to cancel in the first year without penalty or after 10 years or once the property was paid off. They also removed disclosing 30 year cost estimates and a proposed 24 hour cooling off period. They believed they dodged a bullet here.

https://vacationownershipconsultants.com/bill-passes-in-favor-of-new-timeshare-sales-law-in-arizona/
*
I am posting this to show that real people in real life in real legislatures are already almost there, not just an OldGuy babbling on the Internet.  The only thing stopping it in this example is the lobby money to bribe the more available legislators.

You cannot endlessly take advantage of consumers, lie and deceive, and then hold them captive, forever, without there eventually being consequences.

I might mention that a couple months ago I suggested something similar to the underlined portion, and got the Internet equivalent of being tar-and-feathered.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

It's why even owners have the following as their signature:

*98% of timeshare sales people give the rest a bad name.*
*
*


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Like this?
> 
> *A few weeks ago, we published an article regarding the state of timeshare sales presentations in Arizona. Since the early stages of timesharing, contract disclosure has been a problem in the industry. Although many lawmakers with stakes in fractional ownership wanted to fault buyers for making impulse decisions, the State of Arizona agreed that disclosure laws were necessary. They also determined that extending a buyer’s right to rescission (cancellation period) was needed as well.
> 
> ...



How would the cancelation after 10 years work? Many larger developers with active sales will allow owners today to deed back their units to avoid future maintenance fees, but that won’t work for independent resorts no longer in active sales. It would impose a burden on the HOA with unpaid fees. Certainly the law could not allow any refund of the purchase price after 10 years of use. 

To me, rather than imposing such draconian provisions, a better role for government might be to help facilitate transparency and knowledge of the resale market so people who want to get out have a viable path out rather than forcing HOAs or developers to take back units.


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I am posting this to show that real people in real life in real legislatures are already almost there, not just an OldGuy babbling on the Internet.



I wish them luck. It will be interesting to watch since I have no vested interest (being able to find the readily-available relevant information) and am on the sidelines. We shall see.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> How would the cancelation after 10 years work? Many larger developers with active sales will allow owners today to deed back their units to avoid future maintenance fees, but that won’t work for independent resorts no longer in active sales. It would impose a burden on the HOA with unpaid fees. Certainly the law could not allow any refund of the purchase price after 10 years of use.
> 
> To me, rather than imposing such draconian provisions, a better role for government might be to help facilitate transparency and knowledge of the resale market so people who want to get out have a viable path out rather than forcing HOAs or developers to take back units.



First, I appreciate that in wondering how one thing might work, you acknowledge the need for something.

I can only guess, and that guess would be that after some amount of time of being a responsible owner, always meeting their obligations, and having paid/paid off everything they were obligated to, owners should have the right to exit, not be held financially captive, for valid reasons, like non-performance by a resort.

I can only guess that the intent of legislation like that would be to allow the consumer to make a decision as to whether the resort has provided what the consumer was told they would.  That goes to the 1.5 million households that ARDA, inadvertently, admits are dissatisfied.  That's a HUGE portion, and attests to problems.

It is not lost on me that associations are the victims, and strapped with, the lies of developers, the same as consumer/owners, but it seems inconsistent to blame that on and penalize consumers/owners, and ignore the cause.

It's likely the lobbyists pointed out the developer v. association issue.


----------



## dayooper (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Chill.  Be patient.
> 
> When an entire industry _misbehaves, _and fails to police itself, someone will, when enough consumers are hurt.  1.5 million households does not appear to be enough, but maybe enough to draw attention to it.



Why do I need to chill and be patient?


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

dayooper said:


> Why do I need to chill and be patient?



You don't:

* I have no vested interest since I know how to find information, so nothing to be patient about.*
*
*


----------



## DazedandConfused (Aug 2, 2019)

I personally think 21-30 days is a good time frame for recession, but not longer. The 10 day is too short, especially when you consider many people buy while on vacation.

It is also amazing to me that Disney DVC owners rarely complain and they have a mega high retention rate (above 90% for 5 years) so they must be doing something right.

HGVC is the closest thing to DVC and even has some things better than Disney, but I find the sales staff at HGCV much more "weasely" than Disney. Also the immediate resale value of HGVC is terrible as compared to DVC. In other words, if you buy HGVC and immediately sell, you will lose 75% or more and with Disney you will generally be less than 20%.


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> First, I appreciate that in wondering how one thing might work, you acknowledge the need for something.
> 
> I can only guess, and that guess would be that after some amount of time of being a responsible owner, always meeting their obligations, and having paid/paid off everything they were obligated to, owners should have the right to exit, not be held financially captive, for valid reasons, like non-performance by a resort.
> 
> ...




I certainly support strong consumer protection laws, particularly in industries like timeshare with a history of deceptive sales practices. Having said that, I do think those laws need to be reasonable and recognize they should not give the consumer so many protections that it harms other involved parties such as HOAs or the developers that don't totally abuse the process.

I support more robust rescission periods (at least 15 days), stronger up-front disclosures (maybe even a bold-print disclosure that the buyer must sign informing them that a resale market exists and they should investigate options during the rescission period), and better enforcement of deceptive sales practices. But allowing an owner to just walk away from their maintenance fee obligation and stick it to the HOA and the other owners strikes me as unfair to the other impacted parties. Why allow someone to totally walk away from a decision they made in a way that directly harms others?  I think government rules work best when they work to strengthen the marketplace in a way that benefits consumers, and then let the market forces do their job. One reason that developers can get away with charging exorbitant prices is because the resale market has very little transparency to the average buyer. Improve that visibility with disclosures and more liberal rescission periods versus laws that arbitrarily take away the basic market forces.


----------



## RX8 (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Like this?
> 
> *A few weeks ago, we published an article regarding the state of timeshare sales presentations in Arizona. Since the early stages of timesharing, contract disclosure has been a problem in the industry. Although many lawmakers with stakes in fractional ownership wanted to fault buyers for making impulse decisions, the State of Arizona agreed that disclosure laws were necessary. They also determined that extending a buyer’s right to rescission (cancellation period) was needed as well.
> 
> ...



Interesting that your quotes are taken from an exit company who is exploiting how “bad” the industry is. This particular exit company has an alert on the BBB for misrepresenting their accreditation. They are also F rated. They also have many glowing BBB reviews. I pointed out on another thread how legit companies in business for decades have few BBB reviews yet these exit companies are able to drum up dozens of glowing reviews which makes me wonder how many of them are fake reviews (illegal by the way).


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

I did not consider this source because I saw exactly the same info, word for word, on the news outlets when I first posted exactly the same information previously.

Would it change the facts if I posted exactly the same information, only from another source?

BTW, it is exactly the same information, exactly the same explanation of what happened, that AZ proposed a *10-year-or-whenever-the-original-purchase-is-paid-off-whichever-comes-first exit*, and ARDA lobbied against it, and won, as I originally posted from a less-biased source.

Just because a biased source shares information doesn't mean it is inaccurate.

What they shared is what happened.
- - - - - -
&, since you brought it up, why do questionable exit companies exist?


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

One might also think that someone with this strong an interest in protecting people from the deceptive practices of the timeshare industry might spring to become a Member of TUG as opposed to remaining a Guest. Maybe it's just me, but seems odd.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

Ah, personal attacks.  That's cute.

odd I may be

The facts still stay the facts, though.

back to the topic . . .

Here's an abbreviated version of AZ's new timeshare legislation, from a neutral news source:

*“The Arizona House of Representatives unanimously passed a version of the timeshare bill with stronger protections for consumers, including a “cooling-off period” of one business day after the sales presentation and a requirement that the timeshare company provide specific estimates of the actual cost of the timeshare,” according to the Arizona Attorney General’s Office. “Unfortunately, these additional consumer protection requirements were stripped in the Senate and did not make it into the final legislation sent to the Governor.”

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2019/05/24/governor-signs-timeshare-reform-legislation/
*
Note that the AZ AG's office found it disappointing that the parts of the legislation that I previously listed were defeated by lobbyists.

It is not that I necessarily support those harsher items, and I mention them to show that it is not just the musing of an OldGuy, that  . . . well, you can read what I said before.

_Que sera, sera._


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Ah, personal attacks.  That's cute.



Definite apologies if my comment came across as a personal attack. Was not meant to be. I would just think that someone with this strong an interest would want to be a member of the community. As I said, just seems odd. Definitely nothing personal, so really no reason to read that into it. But, of course, infer what you wish. I've explained my intent 

Cheers.


----------



## dayooper (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> You don't:
> 
> * I have no vested interest since I know how to find information, so nothing to be patient about.
> 
> *



I didn’t say that. That was @brp


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

I've had an interest in consumer rights for 50 years, since I took an auto-repair company taking advantage of college students to conference with the AG's office.  

It's likely just a personal defect, that I see weak people getting screwed by bullies, & I feel I have some obligation to do something about it.

Becoming of member of anything probably would not change that.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

dayooper said:


> I didn’t say that. That was @brp



yup


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

I have tried to be conservative, not over-hyped, to present how dangerous to owners who like their timeshares owners who are dissatisfied are.  I've used the figure 1.5 million households (15% of 4 million owners, both conservative).

I am not sharing the following source, but just to illustrate that the danger may be even greater than I've presented, here's another estimate:

*More than 9 million households own timeshares which resort developers frequently market with high-pressure, hard-sell, sales techniques that often result in overpriced, impractical and unwanted contracts.  According to industry research, 47 percent of timeshare owners want out of their contracts because of money-related issues.*

I share this not because of the source, whatever it is, but because this is what the general public is seeing, fake news or not.

ARDA lobbying to stop consumer-beneficial, or support anti-consumer legislation, is common knowledge.

*In advance of today's hearing on Florida's proposed legislation (FL HB 435/ SB 1430), the powerful $9.6 billion timeshare industry lobby is pushing for the passage of this anti-consumer bill.*


----------



## dayooper (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> yup



I guess I’m a little confused. I took your remark as a little condescending, like a parent telling a child everything will be ok. I guess I’m not sure why that was included in your reply to me, but I guess it really doesn’t matter.


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I have tried to be conservative, not over-hyped, to present how dangerous to owners who like their timeshares owners who are dissatisfied are.  I've used the figure 1.5 million households (15% of 4 million owners, both conservative).
> 
> I am not sharing the following source, but just to illustrate that the danger may be even greater than I've presented, here's another estimate:
> 
> ...



Actually, I think the entry of the big brands like Marriott, HGVC, Westin, Wyndham, etc. has cleaned up many/most of the truly fraudulent practices by developers. They still spin, tell partial truths, and use emotion to push people to buy things they may not need, but the outright fraud is much less prevalent.

On the other hand, many of these up-front fee companies and exit companies are outright frauds and are probably a bigger black-eye for the industry now than the developers themselves. I actually think regulating the exit companies is more important short-term than dealing with the sales tactics. It may not be the same bill, but I thought the Florida bill you linked above was the one that ARDA was backing that would have addressed these exit companies. I'm not sure how that is anti-consumer.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Actually, I think the entry of the big brands like Marriott, HGVC, Westin, Wyndham, etc. has cleaned up many/most of the truly fraudulent practices by developers. They still spin, tell partial truths, and use emotion to push people to buy things they may not need, but the outright fraud is much less prevalent.



Where is that ROTFLMAO emoji? 



It says all that needs to be said about the industry when you have to say they engage in unethical practices when you are saying they have cleaned up their act.

As has been pointed out many times here, the Corporate timeshares have dissatisfaction and significant default rates, too.

(*MVC:  S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%*)

What were we talking about? 

Oh yeah . . . Buyers Remorse . . . a similar topic new people come here about virtually every day.


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Where is that ROTFLMAO emoji?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My point was not to defend the specific sales practices of developers, but the key point was the part of my post that you did not quote - that in today's world, the truly worst actors have become the exit companies. Many of them are outright fraud.

And when we focus on the timeshare owners that are dissatisfied, we tend to ignore that the vast majority of owners in the major hotel-branded systems are very satisfied. I know Marriott has reported owner satisfaction scores in their quarterly earnings calls well above 90% and I think HGVC is in the same ballpark.

Also, I'm not sure where your default quote was from, but the real numbers are much less. These are from each company's 2018 Form 10-K which is filed with the SEC every year.

Hilton Grand Vacations 2018 default rate: 4.71%
Marriott Vacations Worldwide 2018 default rate:  3.80%

Any lender will have defaults, but I believe I recall from yesterday's HGV earnings conference call that I listened to online that these rates are comparable to or slightly better than the default rates for auto loans.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> the truly worst actors have become the exit companies.



& why do exit companies exist?

*S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%*

Page 11:  https://www.spratings.com/documents/20184/769219/MVW+2018-1/07e0d601-48df-4247-af1d-dc3030b1146b


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> & why do exit companies exist?



To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

Something that got lost in the nit-picking and source-shaming is that ARDA defeated a 24-Hour Cooling-Off Period in the AZ legislation.

So, what the heck is a 24-Hour Cooling Off Period?

Well, in real real estate, you don't get 24-pages of fine-print legalese put in front of you two hours after you say, "I'll take it."

Closing in real real estate normally occurs long after the contract is signed, and after a whole lot of consumer-protection-oriented stuff happens.  

The AZ legislators felt that a lifetime commitment should not be made in the heat of the moment, when the consumer is worn down and rung out, turning a 3 or 4 hour pitch into a 5 or 6 hour ordeal.  The legislators wanted "buyers" to close the next day . . . go back to their room at Motel 6 for the night, and see how they felt about it the next day.

That would have cost the industry millions of dollars, or saved consumers millions of dollars, and a lot of heartache, depending on where your heart is.

I was in direct sales for ten years, including in upper management, and I/we experimented with the 24-Hour close, so I know how important it is to nail the prospect when you have them.  At the beginning of a presentation, it felt good to say, "If you brought your checkbook, you'll have to leave it in your pocket.  Even if you absolutely love what you hear today, and have to have it, which you will, you can't.  We won't let you." 

But that's not how commission sales people earn a living.  It's all about breaking you down and having you where they want you.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

brp said:


> To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.
> 
> Cheers.



Can't even possibly consider because the consumer couldn't find any other way?

(I'm willing to consider that most exit companies are scumbags, too, so I'm thinking you and I might have common ground somewhere in the middle.  I'm always hopeful.)


----------



## brp (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Can't even possibly consider because the consumer couldn't find any other way?
> 
> (I'm willing to consider that most exit companies are scumbags, too, so I'm thinking you and I might have common ground somewhere in the middle.  I'm always hopeful.)



Oh we do, on both issues (timeshare and exit companies). We agree on both in principle and differ in perceived degree of problem. That part's not gonna change for either of us, and that;s cool.

Cheers.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

Concerning the new Arizona legislation here's the first reporting on it, before it got stripped:

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> & why do exit companies exist?



I think brp and I are saying basically the same thing - we're not saying the timeshare companies are as pure as the driven snow. We're just saying the predatory exit companies are taking advantage of the situation and making it much worse.



OldGuy said:


> & why do exit companies exist?
> *S&P Global Ratings' Expected Domestic Gross Default Assumption: 8.0%*
> 
> Page 11:  https://www.spratings.com/documents/20184/769219/MVW+2018-1/07e0d601-48df-4247-af1d-dc3030b1146b



The document you linked to was one of the many note securitization transactions that Marriott Vacations Worldwide does on a regular basis. They originate the timeshare loans, but then periodically pool them for sale to qualified institutional buyers as security. S&P rates each pool and uses their models to predict a theoretical default rate over the term of the notes. For this securitization they looked at default rates over a 15 year period from 2001 to 2016 and came up with a base case prediction of 8%. That is not actual performance, but the parameters under which the securitization is rated. If the pool performs worse than these parameters (default worse than 8%), then MVW has to make some adjustments with the security holders. Here is what their 2018 Form 10-K said about this particular securitization:

*During the second quarter of 2018, we completed the securitization of a pool of $436 million of vacation ownership notes receivable. In connection with the securitization, investors purchased in a private placement $423 million in vacation ownership loan backed notes from the MVW Owner Trust 2018-1 (the “2018-1 Trust”)...

Each of the securitized vacation ownership notes receivable transactions contains various triggers relating to the performance of the underlying vacation ownership notes receivable. If a pool of securitized vacation ownership notes receivable fails to perform within the pool’s established parameters (default or delinquency thresholds vary by transaction), transaction provisions effectively redirect the monthly excess spread we would otherwise receive from that pool (attributable to the interests we retained) to accelerate the principal payments to investors (taking into account the subordination of the different tranches to the extent there are multiple tranches) until the performance trigger is cured. During 2018, and as of December 31, 2018, no securitized vacation ownership notes receivable pools were out of compliance with their respective established parameters. As of December 31, 2018, we had 11 securitized vacation ownership notes receivable pools outstanding.*

So essentially the 8% represents the parameter model assumptions under which the investors bought the securitization, and under which MVW essentially guarantees the portfolio will perform. It is not actual results. They expect the pool to perform *better* than the rating, maybe significantly better.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

Back to the OP, Buyer's Remorse.

As simple as it can be sadi:

People come to TUG every day, asking how to get out of a timeshare, either one they just purchased or one they've had awhile.  That's what this thread is about.

ARDA's estimate is that 15% of timeshare owners are dissatisfied.  That would be about 1.5 Million households.  Other estimates are much higher.

Any simple google search will show what we all know, that a significant number of timeshare owners feel they are trapped. _ How To Get Rid of a Timeshare_ gets 1/2 million hits.  

The State of Arizona tried to do something about it.  Their Attorney General's Office is disappointed that they did not succeed.

I will try to watch the news and keep folks posted.


----------



## Tamaradarann (Aug 3, 2019)

brp said:


> To make money at the expense of these poor unfortunates without actually doing anything for them except taking more of their money? That's the best I can figure on this.
> 
> Cheers.



These are thoughts about why Timeshare Exit Companies Exist From two different perspectives:

One, is because there is a desire or demand for people to exit the timeshare contract that they bought into, mostly because of the maintenance costs that they are NOT getting or NO LONGER getting the use out of that they expected when they bought.  

Two, The Developer or HOA doesn't value the timeshare property like it was when initially marketed or _rather doesn't value it at all_ after it is sold to someone.  Therefore, they will not even take it back for $0. 

That is one of the reasons that having a Developer with an active ROFR and a Homeowners Association that will take back the property is essential to keep the Timeshare Industry thriving.   If the Homeowners Association will take back the property or if the Developer will buy the timeshare property if someone tries to sell it at a low price means that the property has some value, even if it is very little to no dollars.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 3, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> These are thoughts about why Timeshare Exit Companies Exist From two different perspectives:
> 
> One, is because there is a desire or demand for people to exit the timeshare contract that they bought into, mostly because of the maintenance costs that they are NOT getting or NO LONGER getting the use out of that they expected when they bought.
> 
> ...


----------



## WaterMan (Aug 7, 2019)

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/
https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...na-law-rights-cancel-heretohelpaz/1211444001/

If I am reading these correctly, the only thing the final bill does is increase the recission period to 10 days, which sounds reasonable and nothing extraordinary there. It also listed a bunch of requirements that should be in writing. Again, nothing spectacular there.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 19, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Here's an abbreviated version of AZ's new timeshare legislation, from a neutral news source:
> 
> *“The Arizona House of Representatives unanimously passed a version of the timeshare bill with stronger protections for consumers, including a “cooling-off period” of one business day after the sales presentation and a requirement that the timeshare company provide specific estimates of the actual cost of the timeshare,” according to the Arizona Attorney General’s Office. “Unfortunately, these additional consumer protection requirements were stripped in the Senate and did not make it into the final legislation sent to the Governor.”
> 
> ...



Of course ARDA/the industry is opposed to anything that would allow dissatisfied owners to escape.  

They are afraid of what might happen, as are most who are opposed to exit programs, that only those who want/use/enjoy timeshares would be left.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 19, 2019)

WaterMan said:


> https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/19/timeshare-bill-passes-out-of-house-committee/
> https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...na-law-rights-cancel-heretohelpaz/1211444001/
> 
> If I am reading these correctly, the only thing the final bill does is increase the recission period to 10 days, which sounds reasonable and nothing extraordinary there. It also listed a bunch of requirements that should be in writing. Again, nothing spectacular there.



You are correct.

The eye-openers are the things that ARDA beat down.  That they were even proposed, made it through committee and to the floor, says a lot about the seriousness of the situation.

It's like the legislators said to the industry, "This time we'll give you chance to take care of it, but we'll be watching."


----------



## Sandy VDH (Aug 22, 2019)

No timeshare would ever be available via resale unless it was purchased from the developer in the first place.  There is plenty of opportunity for buyers remorse. 

Either believe you bought a lemon or make lemonade.  Those are your only choices.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 22, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> No timeshare would ever be available via resale unless it was purchased from the developer in the first place.



The first time I heard that _logic _I was a YoungGuy.



The first time we talked to our neighbor and his Sig Other about timeshares, that's pretty much what he said, because he had sold timeshare retail, among other important things he had done, and he had come from a far away important place, where everyone is superior to the local heathens here.

Of course, he was not as pleasant about it as everyone on TUG is.



That was the last time we talked about timeshares until he was terminally ill, and he asked me to get rid of his/theirs, so they would not be a burden on his SO, because he had no idea how to get rid of a timeshare, and I _did that sort of stuff.
_
Let me go put a date to that, since we've been talking about when resales collapsed. . . . late 2006.

It would be a shame if it takes terminal illness to appreciate an OldGuy!


----------



## CHILLIN (Jan 28, 2020)

Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
I am still within the rescission period.
initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
and just a short time I’ve been trolling here I have seen a wide range of opinions on purchasing versus renting. The 13 month advance booking feature is nice. However, we are quite spontaneous and full disclosure we were in the airline industry so we can move quickly when necessary. I am 64 years old so looking at time value of money. Quite frankly, I ran the numbers for a 10-11 year consumer experience. Could be overly conservative but I’m just using historical numbers and it works out to be about $380 per night for a one bedroom one week experience. So, looking for different opinions while I’m still in a rescission period. We do not have children so at the end of fun and games it would just be turn back to club Windham as it appears these properties have little to no value at the end of the cycle.
Thanks in advance,




Mylene said:


> We owned a 2BR Gold with 5000 points in Orlando and today we upgraded to a 2BR Platinum with 7000 points. Total for the upgrade is $17 000. I just found this site and reading through I am wondering if we should not have bought new. I understand how someone who doesn’t own a TS can buy one after market for $1 a point but can an owner upgrade their points buying something after market without owning 2 TS? Also isn’t there a 48 hrs rule where you can rescind the transaction? I am wondering if we should do that. Any thoughts on all this? Thank you!





OldGuy said:


> Back to the OP, Buyer's Remorse.
> 
> As simple as it can be sadi:
> 
> ...


----------



## CPNY (Jan 28, 2020)

CHILLIN said:


> Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
> I am still within the rescission period.
> initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
> not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
> ...


So glad you found TUG  I WISH I HAD when i bought my first developer unit. Rescind and rescind now. So many better options resale and that’s if that if you really want Wyndham! Make sure everyone who’s name is on the contract signs the rescission letter, don’t call sales, follow the instructions on the contract you signed. It may even just say, to make changes to your account write to..... rescinding is making a change to the account. For the love of god save the money. Buy resale. Research other systems as well. You may like the Marriott vibe, or vistana or HGVC. All of which you can get Better price on resale. Rescind now and research and buy later for the love of god.
@Grammarhero


----------



## Grammarhero (Jan 28, 2020)

CHILLIN said:


> Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
> I am still within the rescission period.
> initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
> not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
> ...


Rescind.  You can buy this for $1.  My go-to source is TSN.   I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
They current have 105k pts for free.  

Study TS for two months before buying.  TS best for detailed planners.  If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.

Check your rescission paperwork.  It should looks similar to then attached.  Don’t rely on the attached.  All rescissions are different.

Lifetime RCi fees waived is misleading.  Everyone pays the $160/180 program fees which comes with RCI.  RCI lots of two star units so not sure if you’d like.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 28, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Rescind.  You can buy this for $1.  My go-to source is TSN.   I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
> They current have 105k pts for free.
> 
> Study TS for two months before buying.  TS best for detailed planners.  If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.
> ...


Oh nice they let them email as well? I’d fax, send certified letter, rrr, and email. I may even book a flight and hand deliver as well lol


----------



## Grammarhero (Jan 28, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Oh nice they let them email as well? I’d fax, send certified letter, rrr, and email. I may even book a flight and hand deliver as well lol


Only in California.  It’s not valid anywhere else though the fax is fine in some states.  That’s why I told OP to check his rescission paperwork.


----------



## CHILLIN (Jan 28, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Rescind.  You can buy this for $1.  My go-to source is TSN.   I bought 353k pts for $4. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview
> They current have 105k pts for free.
> 
> Study TS for two months before buying.  TS best for detailed planners.  If Wyndham for you, then buy from TSN.
> ...


Must appreciated.  Glad I found tug.  As it turns out, we still do a lot of adventure vacations while we’re still vertical (Macu Pichu, dive live aboard, etc.). Didn’t like a perfect fit, but liked the ski lodging potential.  Seems like I may be able to have my cake and eat it too utilizing all the experience here at TUG.  Cheers!


----------



## CPNY (Jan 28, 2020)

CHILLIN said:


> Must appreciated.  Glad I found tug.  As it turns out, we still do a lot of adventure vacations while we’re still vertical (Macu Pichu, dive live aboard, etc.). Didn’t like a perfect fit, but liked the ski lodging potential.  Seems like I may be able to have my cake and eat it too utilizing all the experience here at TUG.  Cheers!


Yeah rescind and you’ll be fine. Check out other systems before jumping into one. You may like other choices out there.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 28, 2020)

CHILLIN said:


> Just joined. Appears to be a great site. Wish I would’ve found this before I signed an initial contract with Wyndham. I would’ve been a much smarter consumer going in.
> I am still within the rescission period.
> initially started with a Wyndham discovery package. It didn’t start out perfect as we were under the initial impression that we had VIP access to all Wyndham properties with our 400,000 points. As it turns out, we weren’t able to go to some of the places we really wanted to go to as we were restricted to properties that had sales units. We were trying to hit international ski areas but as it turned out we ended up going to Oahu, Tahoe, Park City, and Steamboat.
> not sure why, but I just purchased a club Windham access vacation plan. Total price $16,499, after a $3600 discovery package credit. 126,000 perpetual points with 176,000 bonus points good for two years. Also includes, I believe, a lifetime membership to RCI evidently worth over $2000 and a one year complementary perks by club Windham worth about $60.
> ...



Wouldn't it be better to post this on the Wyndham board? This board is for HGVC.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 28, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Wouldn't it be better to post this on the Wyndham board? This board is for HGVC.


I think this user is new and researched buyers remorse and this came up, read it and asked a question not knowing which board to post in. Either way, they hopefully are rescinding so that’s a plus haha.


----------



## CHILLIN (Jan 28, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Wouldn't it be better to post this on the Wyndham board? This board is for HGVC.


Sure would, I spose.  However, being new to site didn’t even know you had a Wyndham board.  Thanks to CPNY replying in the the short time frame I have to render a final decision.


----------



## CHILLIN (Jan 28, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Wouldn't it be better to post this on the Wyndham board? This board is for HGVC.


Actually, I think it was grammarhero.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 28, 2020)

@Grammarhero  successful rescind. $16,499 if I’m not mistaken correct @CHILLIN ?


----------



## CHILLIN (Jan 30, 2020)

CPNY said:


> @Grammarhero  successful rescind. $16,499 if I’m not mistaken correct @CHILLIN ?


Sent in paperwork notice on Wed.  Will have to wait for their response.  Just back from a ski holiday


----------

