# We know Semenya is a girl!



## mamiecarter (Aug 21, 2009)

Who cares if star athelete Semena has a bit of male DNA mixed in. She is a beautifull woman and shouldn't be humiliated like this. So she runs really fast and now she is being fourced to be tested for one of the rare mixed gender DNA conditions. 

Who cares. She looks female and her mother says she is a girl so why tortue her. Most South Africans are outraged that the woman who just won the 800 meter race in Berlin is being treated like this. If they gender tested all athletes early in their careers it would be ok.  But what would they do with the tiny percent who were biologically mixed gender?


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## Eric (Aug 21, 2009)

Ah.. because in order to compete she must be 100% female. I am not sure what here being a beautiful woman has to do with it.





mamiecarter said:


> Who cares if star athelete Semena has a bit of male DNA mixed in. She is a beautifull woman and shouldn't be humiliated like this. So she runs really fast and now she is being fourced to be tested for one of the rare mixed gender DNA conditions.


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## Ironwood (Aug 21, 2009)

It is an absolute shame that she has to be subjected to such an inquiry after she has claimed gold.  But conclusive testing is not as simple as drop your drawers, it will take some weeks.    Her fellow competitors lodged the complaint.   She has come out of almost total obscurity to win the world championship by 20 paces!   I wouldn't be so quick to insist just because her mother says she grew up a girl that she is female.  See the attached link to story on testing.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8214094.stm


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## ricoba (Aug 21, 2009)

No, I don't think we really do know yet at this point.  

Gender is a bit more complicated than looking pretty.


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## Bill4728 (Aug 21, 2009)

Ironwood said:


> It is an absolute shame that she has to be subjected to such an inquiry after she has claimed gold.  But conclusive testing is not as simple as drop your drawers, it will take some weeks.    Her fellow competitors lodged the complaint.   She has come out of almost total obscurity to win the world championship by 20 paces!   I wouldn't be so quick to insist just because her mother says she grew up a girl that she is female.  See the attached link to story on testing.
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8214094.stm


The picture in this link sure makes her look a a guy.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 21, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> Who cares if star athelete Semena has a bit of male DNA mixed in. She is a beautifull woman and shouldn't be humiliated like this. So she runs really fast and now she is being fourced to be tested for one of the rare mixed gender DNA conditions.
> 
> Who cares. She looks female and her mother says she is a girl so why tortue her. Most South Africans are outraged that the woman who just won the 800 meter race in Berlin is being treated like this. If they gender tested all athletes early in their careers it would be ok.  But what would they do with the tiny percent who were biologically mixed gender?



I'm a bit confused about what your key contentions are here.  Are you saying that:


If an athlete is from South Africe they shouldn't be subject to questions about their identity.
If an athlete claims to be female the athlete should be exempt from questions about gender?
If an athlete who claims to be female and who sets a world record shouldn't be questioned about gender?
When an athlete's mother attests to the gender of the athlete, no further testing or investigation is needed?
If an athlete has not previously been subject to gender testing they should forever be exempt from  questions of gender?
Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that any of those form an adequate basis for exempting someone from scrutiny.  If so, those pieces of information are really irrelevant to the question, aren't they?


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## Patri (Aug 21, 2009)

At first glance, sure looks like a man. Voice is deep. She is flat chested, flat flat. Has she ever had a period?
This sure is personal, but I'm not surprised the issue has come up. It was bound to at some point for someone.
How does her speed compare to that of men?


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## Rose Pink (Aug 21, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> But what would they do with the tiny percent who were biologically mixed gender?


 
I've wondered that myself.  Should there be a third gender category?  Doesn't seem fair to exclude athletes because they have mixed chromosomes. OTOH, if it gives them an unfair advantage....?  Is it unfair?   I sure don't have the answers to these questions.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 22, 2009)

Rose Pink said:


> I've wondered that myself.  Should there be a third gender category?  Doesn't seem fair to exclude athletes because they have mixed chromosomes. OTOH, if it gives them an unfair advantage....?  Is it unfair?   I sure don't have the answers to these questions.



The fundamental questions here are what are the definitions of "male" and "female"?  And if those definitions are not constructed so as to be mutually exclusive, how do we assign gender to those who might not meet either definition or who might meet both definitions.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2009)

BTW - her first name is Caster, and her last name in Semenya.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 22, 2009)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> ... how do we assign gender to those who might not meet either definition or who might meet both definitions.


 
I've no idea--none.  But I think excluding those individuals from competition isn't right, either.  I'm not sure there are enough of them to form a separate category.  We have competitions for "regular" athletes, and categories for physically handicapped and for mentally challenged athletes.  There are also games for senior citizens.  Where do mixed gender (for lack of a better term) athletes fit in?


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## Keitht (Aug 22, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> Who cares if star athelete Semena has a bit of male DNA mixed in. She is a beautifull woman



If nothing else that shows that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.


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## 1950bing (Aug 22, 2009)

Just go into the bathroom after she/he has used it and see if the seat is up or down.............. case solved!


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## Ironwood (Aug 22, 2009)

While it is tragic that Caster Semenya has to be subjected to such a gender inquiry, there appears to be sufficient suspicion to warrant it.  The protest stems from those who have had to run against her. She has come out of relative obscurity to a thoroughly dominating performace at the worlds....although she didn't set a new WR.  If you look at her races on You Tube, she clearly has the physique of a man, and she carries her arms differently from her female competitors. Her voice is quite deep.  Athletics has many stories of males or mixed gendered competing as women over the years.  The IAAF hasn't suggested the inquiry is aimed at rooting out a cheater, but rather to determine whether she has an unfair advantage....knowingly or unknowlingly.  If she found to unknowingly be a male or transgendered, it becomes an extremely sensitIive issue that has to be dealt with in a caring and helpful manner.  There is a celebrated case a few years ago of a victorious female from India in the Asian games who tried to commit suicide upon learning she was more male.  She has resumed a productive life and all is well, but it was a lesson in the sensitivity required when the athlete is unaware.  Tough issues, but regrettably they have to be dealt with.


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## Keitht (Aug 22, 2009)

All joking apart, there shouldn't have been any announcement until after all tests had been undertaken and results known. Even drug cheats are given anonymity until after the results of the second sample are known.  
I don't think anybody is suggesting that this person is deliberately misleading anyone, but if their genetic / hormonal 'configuration' is such that they can't compete fairly then what is the alternative to banning them?
There have been plenty of other female athletes who wouldn't win any beauty contests and have the build of a brick outhouse, but haven't had any questions about their true gender raised.  Maria Mutola is probably one of the more obvious examples of exceptional build in recent years.


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## mamiecarter (Aug 22, 2009)

*So test every one before they get to compete*

Personally I think she looks great. But if they decide she is not a woman they have just ruined her life so someone has to provide serious assistance to her and her family to help them get through it. And if she proves to be 100% female she still needs help dealing with the insult to her femininity. How about 5 million bucks for pain and suffering?

The solution is thatall  athletes should be tested before they are alowed to enter major competitions and the results should be told to them privatly and kept secret. Sexual identity is more of a social thing than a physical.

If they decide she is biologically male then next time she can compete as a man. But let her live her life as a woman if she wants to. How many of us women have been insulted by being told we were not femine enough?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 22, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> Personally I think she looks great. But if they decide she is not a woman they have just ruined her life so someone has to provide serious assistance to her and her family to help them get through it. And if she proves to be 100% female she still needs help dealing with the insult to her femininity. How about 5 million bucks for pain and suffering?
> 
> The solution is thatall  athletes should be tested before they are alowed to enter major competitions and the results should be told to them privatly and kept secret. Sexual identity is more of a social thing than a physical.
> 
> If they decide she is biologically male then next time she can compete as a man. But let her live her life as a woman if she wants to. How many of us women have been insulted by being told we were not femine enough?



Ok - but that has not happened in this case.

Given that Semanya has already competed, what is your opinion?  Based on your opening post, it appears that you do not believe that she should be subjected to testing because she already commenced competition as a woman and has not yet been tested.

Is that correct?


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## Talent312 (Aug 23, 2009)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Ok - but that has not happened in this case.



Perhaps they should have races for the sexually ambiguous. 
The only one who's opinion counts is that of those who call the shots... the sport's governing body. In any sport, when it comes to testing for whatever purpose, these people can be as rational or as arbitrary as they wann'a be.  Let's let the results speak for themselves.


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## ScoopKona (Aug 23, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> The solution is thatall  athletes should be tested before they are alowed to enter major competitions and the results should be told to them privatly and kept secret. Sexual identity is more of a social thing than a physical.



I have to disagree with both sentences. 

1) All athletes do not need to be genetically tested. It would be pointless to test the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. And the rest of the sports world seems to do just fine without forced genetic testing. Frankly, the idea of mandatory genetic testing is disturbing to me.

2) Based on everything I've read, sexual identity is more of a _physical thing _than a _social thing_. People don't really have a choice in who they find themselves attracted to. What they do about that is another matter, and probably not something to be discussed here.

But nobody involved cares about Ms. Semenya's sexual identity. They care about whether or not she enjoys an unfair hormonal advantage. I think that's a valid concern.


As for stopping the media from reporting this, good luck. While it is most certainly unfair to Ms. Semenya to publicly question her womanhood, stories like these are impossible for the media to resist. There is a prurient segment of society that can't get enough of this. She is doomed to be water-cooler joke fodder, regardless of the test results. It's just another sad statement about our society.


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## pgnewarkboy (Aug 23, 2009)

The issues revolving around sports competition will only get more complex as time goes on.  First, there is the issue of chemical enhancement - this will never be stopped.  Second, there is the issue of genetic enhancement - it is on its way and will not be stopped.  Third, there is the issue of integration between human and machine.  Will a person with an artifical heart and lungs run longer and faster than a person with only natural organs?  Pitchers are getting "tommy john" surgery simply to increase their arm strength - now.  Should an amputee that uses special "wheels" be allowed to race with people with legs?  This has already been an issue.

It is an interesting world we live in and it will only become more interesting as the human species continues its evolution in ways that we now think of as strange and weird.

For that reason alone, I think it is imperative that Pete Rose be installed immediately into the baseball hall of fame as one of the last "natural" humans to hold the base hit record.  I am sure that a hybrid human/mechanical bat will someday break the record.


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## Talent312 (Aug 23, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> ...I think it is imperative that Pete Rose be installed immediately into the baseball hall of fame as one of the last "natural" humans to hold the base hit record.



I hazard to bet --  -- that Pete Rose will be installed posthumously, at a time when he won't be able to cash in on it, and few will remember why he was disgraced in the first place.

*ADDED:*
"The original version of Billy Joel's song 'Zanzibar' contains the line "Rose, he knows he's such a credit to the game/But the Yankees grab the headlines every time." In his 2006 concert album, 12 Gardens Live, Joel changed the lyrics to "Rose, he knows he'll never make the Hall of Fame." -- from Wikipedia


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## SueDonJ (Aug 23, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> ... For that reason alone, I think it is imperative that Pete Rose be installed immediately into the baseball hall of fame as one of the last "natural" humans to hold the base hit record.  I am sure that a hybrid human/mechanical bat will someday break the record.





Talent312 said:


> I hazard to bet --  -- that Pete Rose will be installed posthumously, at a time when he won't be able to cash in on it, and few will remember why he was disgraced in the first place.



ACK!  Nooooooooooo!


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## laurac260 (Aug 23, 2009)

*To quote the great philosopher Steven Tyler...*

"Dude looks like a lady."  (or in this case, lady looks like a dude!)


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## Rose Pink (Aug 23, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> ... it will only become more *interesting* as the human species continues its evolution in ways that we now think of as *strange and weird*.


 
As I age, _my _body continues to evolve in ways that I find strange and weird.  However,  I do _not_ find it "interesting."  I find it quite shocking and dreadfully sad. And I'm never going to win any sports competitions.


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## thheath (Aug 23, 2009)

The rules and regulations of the various sports governing bodies are there for a reason.  Anyone who doesn't want to comply doesn't have to participate, it's that simple.


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## mamiecarter (Aug 24, 2009)

*Now I am confused. Am I a girl or a boy?*

If gender determination is so dificult how do any of us know wich sex we really are? My husband would be very upset if I tested out male. In some states, most states same sex marriage is not legaly recognised so would we still be married? Would it make is gay? I always thought I was female BUT......


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## ScoopKona (Aug 24, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> If gender determination is so dificult how do any of us know wich sex we really are? My husband would be very upset if I tested out male. In some states, most states same sex marriage is not legaly recognised so would we still be married? Would it make is gay? I always thought I was female BUT......



I can't tell. Is this sarcasm?

If not, and you're having problems wrapping your head around the various gender-related birth defects you can read this.

(For instance, it is possible for a woman to be born with ovaries, a uterus, a vagina _and testicles_.)


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## Ironwood (Aug 25, 2009)

The plot thickens!  In addition to her testosterone levels being off the scale, it turns out the SA athletics director is a former East German coach with a questionable past relating to athletes and performance enchancing drugs!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/i/int/sport/top1/-/news/sport1/hi/athletics/8219937.stm


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## Bill4728 (Aug 25, 2009)

So this may not be the case of a gender confusion, but a much more straight forward case of a woman trying to cheat with a performance enhancing drugs.


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## ricoba (Aug 25, 2009)

Ironwood said:


> The plot thickens!  In addition to her testosterone levels being off the scale, it turns out the SA athletics director is a former East German coach with a questionable past relating to athletes and performance enchancing drugs!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/i/int/sport/top1/-/news/sport1/hi/athletics/8219937.stm




I am sure I am not the only one to remember the East German "women" in the Olympics back in the day...


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 25, 2009)

ricoba said:


> I am sure I am not the only one to remember the East German "women" in the Olympics back in the day...



I understand that greatly increased libido was one side effect of the steroid regimens.  In the Olympic housing villages, the off-field exploits and activities of many eastern bloc female athletes are legendary.


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## ricoba (Aug 25, 2009)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I understand that greatly increased libido was one side effect of the steroid regimens.  In the Olympic housing villages, the off-field exploits and activities of many eastern bloc female athletes are legendary.



Your post reminded me of Jim Carrey's character from Living Color....

_the lovely_ *Vera de Milo....*   







[/IMG]


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## pgnewarkboy (Aug 25, 2009)

If man/women or women/men, steroidal manimals, dog killers, and other assorted miscreants can play sports today - Pete Rose must be admitted into the hall of fame.  For -----sake, betting on sports is NOTHING compared to this travelling freak show we call professional sports today.  Thats why they have abandoned freak sideshows at circuses.  Just turn on the TV, anytime, any day, and you will see a whole fr--kin universe of freaks!  Talk about dishonest!  Super special swimsuits, tennis rackets, steroids,golf clubs,footwear, amphetimines, gender benders, computer assisted half/human half bots and convicted criminals are all playing sports today.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 25, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> I... Pete Rose must be admitted into the hall of fame.  For -----sake, betting on sports is NOTHING compared to this travelling freak show we call professional sports today...



Good Honk! rofl: )  This is the second time in as many days that this blasphemy showed up here!  It's killing me. <ack gack aiiieee>

Betting on sports, or in Pete Rose's case, betting on baseball (nevermind his own team!) was clearly stated at the time he did it as AGAINST THE RULES.  Period, finito, done.  He did it and is paying the price for it, as he should.

Slowly, the things causing today's traveling freak show are being identified and rules clearly prohibiting the freak things are being implemented.  That's all that can be done, isn't it?  Punish the rule-breakers and update the rules as needed?

Pete Rose in the HOF?  That's a dagger in my heart.  <ack gack death throes>


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## "Roger" (Aug 25, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> ...  For -----sake, betting on sports is NOTHING compared to this travelling freak show we call professional sports today..


I don't think that you understand the concern over betting.  Once a person bets on the outcome, they have a vested interest in that outcome (throwing the game).  If they bet on other games and get into serious debt, they can be pressured by the criminal element to throw games. (Consider the NBA ref now in prison who got into serious debt. In retrospect, some very questionable calls he made in the playoffs now look even more questionable.)


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## ScoopKona (Aug 25, 2009)

> I don't think that you understand the concern over betting.  Once a person bets on the outcome, they have a vested interest in that outcome (throwing the game).  If they bet on other games and get into serious debt, they can be pressured by the criminal element to throw games. (Consider the NBA ref now in prison who got into serious debt. In retrospect, some very questionable calls he made in the playoffs now look even more questionable.)



Even betting on the Reds to win means a vested interest -- Rose, as manager, could monkey arbitrarily with pitcher's rotations to insure a better chance to win the games he bet on.

Since the allegations came out, he has:

1) Denied it, in the face of overwhelming (face-palm, "d'oh") evidence. Bookies admitting to the betting. Bet runners admitting to the betting. Fifteen years of denial.

2) Then finally admit betting on baseball, in a book that made him money. (Which came out when the 2003 Hall of Fame class was being assembled, remember?)

3) Make the circuit of every Home Shopping show, sleazy promotion and convention, charging $50 to sign anything put in front of him. I especially like how he goes to Cooperstown every year to sign baseballs in sight of the Hall of Fame museum. That's real class.

Anyone who wants to wish him well can do so on their next trip to Las Vegas. He's at Field of Dreams nearly every day. Just be sure to bring fifty bucks.

I don't wish the man ill. But he knew if he got caught betting on baseball he'd be banned for life. He bet on baseball anyway.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/galleries/2009/mar/20/pete-rose/


I don't think he should be reinstated unless both Bud Selig and Ray Fosse agree. And what are the chances of _that_ happening?


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## pgnewarkboy (Aug 25, 2009)

20 years is enough.  You can kill people while drunk and play pro-football.  You can take steroids, lie to congress, and go into the hall of fame.  Rose has been punished enough.  Why doesn't he get a second chance?  You can beat your girlfriend silly, rape a hostess, do drugs and alcohol, and get a second chance.  

If you think Rose threw games fine. You have zero proof. Is baseball so  full of integrity that only a life sentence will do.  This is the same baseball that OFFICIALLY would not let blacks play in the big leagues.  I guess baseball gave itself a second chance and so did the public.  But not Pete Rose - no, no, no.

Hank Aaron is a man that knows more about the sport than any of us.  He played the game - fair and square.  He thinks Pete Rose should be given a second chance.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 25, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> 20 years is enough.  You can kill people while drunk and play pro-football.  You can take steroids, lie to congress, and go into the hall of fame.  Rose has been punished enough.  Why doesn't he get a second chance?  You can beat your girlfriend silly, rape a hostess, do drugs and alcohol, and get a second chance.
> 
> If you think Rose threw games fine. You have zero proof. Is baseball so  full of integrity that only a life sentence will do.  This is the same baseball that OFFICIALLY would not let blacks play in the big leagues.  I guess baseball gave itself a second chance and so did the public.  But not Pete Rose - no, no, no.
> 
> Hank Aaron is a man that knows more about the sport than any of us.  He played the game - fair and square.  He thinks Pete Rose should be given a second chance.



Two or five or eight or however many wrongs don't make a right.  Pete Rose is out and I hope he stays out forever.

There was a time when Hank Aaron said that he wished Barry Bonds well in his quest to break the record, too.  Hank's a class guy - he doesn't say anything controversial about any player.  But there are plenty of other classy HOFers who are adamant that Pete Rose has no place beside them in the HOF, regardless of his numbers on the field.


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## DeniseM (Aug 25, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> If gender determination is so dificult how do any of us know wich sex we really are? My husband would be very upset if I tested out male. In some states, most states same sex marriage is not legaly recognised so would we still be married? Would it make is gay? I always thought I was female BUT......



Mamie - unless you are going to enter the world of professional sports, it simply _doesn't matter _what sex you are, so you can't compare your sexual makeup and your relationship with your husband, to the laws that govern professional atheletes.

My 25 year old daughter just informed me that in every day matters, the sex listed on you Birth Certificate is the your designated sex in the eyes of the law, and when you are applying for a marriage license, DL, etc., that's all that matters - as long as you can prove the Birth Certificate is your's with other ID like your driver's license.


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## mamiecarter (Aug 30, 2009)

*This Female Athelete is Simply Being Harrased!*

She grew up as a girl. She has been subject to indecent humilation for being a really great Tom Boy.(I was one too)

 She is beautifull and healthy and has a great face as well as a superb body. Smart and resiliant. So since the vast majority of South Africans know she is female and her birth certificate says female the people harrasing her should back off, appologise and try harder to behave themselves. 

There are, by the way, no established rules to define gender in ambigous cases. If someone wants to start a serious research project to make determinations the athletic world should fund it and await the results.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 30, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> She grew up as a girl. She has been subject to indecent humilation for being a really great Tom Boy.(I was one too)
> 
> She is beautifull and healthy and has a great face as well as a superb body. Smart and resiliant. So since the vast majority of South Africans know she is female and her birth certificate says female the people harrasing her should back off, appologise and try harder to behave themselves.
> 
> There are, by the way, no established rules to define gender in ambigous cases. If someone wants to start a serious research project to make determinations the athletic world should fund it and await the results.



So, if I'm following your logic, gender is determined by how a person is raised and not by their genes.

That's certainly one position to take.  I don't think many people will agree with you that how a person is raised is more significant than genetic makeup.

*******

To forestall a possible criticism; I don't believe at all that I am putting words in your mouth.  Other posters on this thread have said genetic testing is appropriate to determine is Semanya is female. You are contending that genetic testing is not appropriate and that how Semanya was raised is adequate and sufficient proof of gender.

The only way I can reconcile your positions is to conclude that you believe what I summarized above. If there is another reasonable reconciliation, I'm open to hearing it, because sucn an alternate explanation is past me at the moment.

*****

As I posted above, the issue here is really what defines "female" and "male" and are those definitions both mutually exclusive as well as encompassing of all human beings.

For legal purposes - and for athletic competition some formal determiantions are needed - I don't think it's sufficient to say that how a person is raised is more valid than genes.


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> She grew up as a girl. She has been subject to indecent humilation for being a really great Tom Boy.(I was one too)
> 
> She is beautifull and healthy and has a great face as well as a superb body. Smart and resiliant. So since the vast majority of South Africans know she is female and her birth certificate says female the people harrasing her should back off, appologise and try harder to behave themselves.
> 
> There are, by the way, no established rules to define gender in ambigous cases. If someone wants to start a serious research project to make determinations the athletic world should fund it and await the results.



Mamie - did you see this?



> The plot thickens! In addition to her *testosterone levels being off the scale*, it turns out the SA athletics director is a former East German coach with a *questionable past relating to athletes and performance enchancing drugs!*



What if she is indeed female, but is taking performance enhancing drugs?  Do you still want them to leave her alone?

If not, how are they supposed to determine if her body is producing the testosterone, or if she is taking it to enhance her performance, if they don't test her?

And what about the women who are competing against her, who do not have highly elevated levels of testosterone?  What is fair for them?  Do you protect one person if that makes competition UNFAIR for everyone else?

We are not talking about a little girl in the neighborhood who gets picked on because she is boyish - we are talking about an adult, professional athlete who has agreed to abide by the rules of her profession and to comply with testing.  Just like all the women she is competing against...


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## Patri (Aug 30, 2009)

I don't understand why, because someone thinks she is beautiful, she shouldn't be scrutinized. What is she were plain? Personally, I think her face looks very much like a man's.


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## Eric (Aug 30, 2009)

People are giving you ADULT reasons and you are arguing like her 8 year old friend. 



mamiecarter said:


> She grew up as a girl. She has been subject to indecent humilation for being a really great Tom Boy.(I was one too)
> 
> She is beautifull and healthy and has a great face as well as a superb body. Smart and resiliant. So since the vast majority of South Africans know she is female and her birth certificate says female the people harrasing her should back off, appologise and try harder to behave themselves.
> 
> There are, by the way, no established rules to define gender in ambigous cases. If someone wants to start a serious research project to make determinations the athletic world should fund it and await the results.


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## jme (Aug 30, 2009)

hope it all turns out OK, but......

to me, she's more masculine than Carl Lewis.

the real test, tho, is CAN SHE COOK?  

jme


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## pranas (Aug 31, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> If man/women or women/men, steroidal manimals, dog killers, and other assorted miscreants can play sports today - Pete Rose must be admitted into the hall of fame.  For -----sake, betting on sports is NOTHING compared to this travelling freak show we call professional sports today.  Thats why they have abandoned freak sideshows at circuses.  Just turn on the TV, anytime, any day, and you will see a whole fr--kin universe of freaks!  Talk about dishonest!  Super special swimsuits, tennis rackets, steroids,golf clubs,footwear, amphetimines, gender benders, computer assisted half/human half bots and convicted criminals are all playing sports today.




Sorry, I don't agree.  Pete Rose should never be admitted to the hall of fame.


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## Mel (Aug 31, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Mamie - did you see this?
> We are not talking about a little girl in the neighborhood who gets picked on because she is boyish - we are talking about an adult, professional athlete who has agreed to abide by the rules of her profession and to comply with testing.  Just like all the women she is competing against...



I have to agree with Denise, there are reasons to believe she may not be eligible to compete, and testing must be done. 

Perhaps she has a disorder that still will allow her to complete, or perhaps she will not be eligible.  Perhaps her eligibility will be denied based on other factors, such as hormone treatment.

As much as we would like to believe otherwise, there are many people who are not eligible to complete due to factors outside their own control.  Take the person who is given growth hormone because her body doesn't produce enough on its own - if that growth hormone is a banned substance, she is ineligible, even if her use doesn't in fact give her an unfair advantage, but corrects a disadvantage.  Those are the rules, and those who want to compete must follow the rules.


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## mamiecarter (Sep 9, 2009)

*Castor featured on cover of You magazine. Beautifull Girl!!*

The BBC News Website had a picture of a madeover Castor from the cover of South Africa's You Magazine. They treated har to a hair cut, make up and new clothes.  She looks great. 

She grew up in relative poverty in a small town and now she has the chance to shine. Yeah Castor!!!!

Just read on the BBC News that the IAAF has stated that Castor can keep the gold medal whatever the gender tests show.


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## CatLovers (Sep 9, 2009)

She does look lovely, doesn't she?  As a favourite aunt used to say, "she cleans up good."  Just goes to show what a difference make-up can make.


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## Clark (Sep 9, 2009)

Does she get a little gnarly and ornery about once a month?

Then she's a woman.

How hard can it be ---


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## Karen G (Sep 10, 2009)

mamiecarter said:


> The BBC News Website had a picture of a madeover Castor from the cover of South Africa's You Magazine. They treated har to a hair cut, make up and new clothes.  She looks great.


Here's a link to the pictures. She does look very nice.


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## Ironwood (Sep 10, 2009)

It now appears Semenya was submitted to a gender test of sorts on IAAF insistence before the worlds at Berlin.  On the basis of the results the IAAF asked South Africa to withdraw her....they refused...she ran and won convincingly!  While she/he may be allowed to keep the medal....what does all this tell you!  The results of follow up testing are still two weeks away.


Semenya to keep World gold medal  
By James Pearce 
BBC Sports News Correspondent  


Semenya was in the form of her life in Berlin in August 
Caster Semenya will not be stripped of her World Championships 800m gold medal whatever the outcome of her gender test results, BBC Sport understands.

The International Association of Athletics Federations says it demanded Semenya take a gender test before the World Championships amid fears she should not be able to run as a woman. 

Following the findings of initial tests, the IAAF then asked the South Africans to withdraw her from their team for Germany. 

However, the South African athletics federation insisted she should run and says it is certain she is female, a claim backed up by her family. 

Now, given that she was ultimately allowed to compete, IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said it would be "legally very difficult" to ask Semenya to hand back her medal.


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## Jim C (Sep 10, 2009)

Karen G said:


> Here's a link to the pictures. She does look very nice.



Goes to show what a little photoshopping can do!!


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## ricoba (Sep 10, 2009)

*According to the British Tabloids....*

...she is a hermaphrodite....

Not sure how reliable the Sun is, but it does stir up the pot even further...


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 10, 2009)

ricoba said:


> ...she is a hermaphrodite....
> 
> Not sure how reliable the Sun is, but it does stir up the pot even further...



and according to the Sun article, (s)he has testes (located internally) and does not have a womb or ovaries.


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## laurac260 (Sep 10, 2009)

ok, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that this woman IS a hermaphrodite.  What then?  Does the olympic committee have language that defines what constitutes male or female in their bylaws (or whatever they call them).  This is a very sticky situation.  Can a hermaphrodite that is more female than male compete in a man's sport then?  (I am not sure what that sport would be, racking my brain to try to figure out where "femaleness" would be an advantage in a male sport).


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 10, 2009)

laurac260 said:


> ok, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that this woman IS a hermaphrodite.  What then?  Does the olympic committee have language that defines what constitutes male or female in their bylaws (or whatever they call them).  This is a very sticky situation.  Can a hermaphrodite that is more female than male compete in a man's sport then?  (I am not sure what that sport would be, racking my brain to try to figure out where "femaleness" would be an advantage in a male sport).



As I posted upthread, the heart of this matter is what is the definition of "male" and "female" and are those definitions both inclusive of all human beings and mutually exclusive of each other.

Practically speaking, all that is needed is a definition of one gender, as regards athletics that would most likely be female.  Then anyone who doesn't fit the definition of that gender is assigned to the other gender.  Any contestant, then, who does not fit the defintion of female is free to compete as male.


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## DeniseM (Sep 10, 2009)

You have to wonder what kind of advice this young lady is getting from her handlers and her racing association?  They had to know this info. was going to come out sooner or later, so why didn't the agree to the testing before she ran, so that it could be handled quietly and discreetly?  I think the responsibility for creating this three ring circus lies directly on the shoulders of her advisors, and it makes you wonder what their motivation was for concealing this info.


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## sstamm (Sep 10, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> You have to wonder what kind of advice this young lady is getting from her handlers and her racing association?  They had to know this info. was going to come out sooner or later, so why didn't the agree to the testing before she ran, so that it could be handled quietly and discreetly?  I think the responsibility for creating this three ring circus lies directly on the shoulders of her advisors, and it makes you wonder what their motivation was for concealing this info.



I agree completely.  Since obviously there has been reason to question, this should have been resolved long before this point, when she still had a chance to deal with it in privacy.  If she was raised as a girl and identifies herself as female, she could continue to live her life that way, without the world having to know, or speculate.  It is unfortunate for her that her physical condition would prevent her from competing, but she would not be the first athlete, nor the last, with unfulfilled dreams.

I feel bad for her that she has to deal with this in such a public way, especially when it seems like it could have been easily prevented.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the whole make-over thing and the magazine cover was a little degrading.


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## ScoopKona (Sep 10, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> You have to wonder what kind of advice this young lady is getting from her handlers and her racing association?  They had to know this info. was going to come out sooner or later, so why didn't the agree to the testing before she ran, so that it could be handled quietly and discreetly?  I think the responsibility for creating this three ring circus lies directly on the shoulders of her advisors, and it makes you wonder what their motivation was for concealing this info.



Perhaps her handlers and her racing association knew that if she was able to compete in Berlin, and win, it would be extraordinarily difficult for the governing body to take away the gold medal.

And perhaps _that_ was most important to her -- the chance to compete on the world stage, once.

Speculation? Sure. But I think it's a pretty good guess.


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## Patri (Sep 11, 2009)

Sorry, but even with the makeover, she looks like a guy.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 11, 2009)

There are other cases were competitors have been stripped of medals and prevented from participating in future events.  

"You may be surprised to learn that for over 50 years, all elite women athletes had to prove they were actually female. The story begins in the 1950s,  the Cold War was under way and Eastern bloc women athletes were outperforming their Western rivals. They were big, strong women whose performances and appearances shocked the West. "

See full interview here....
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2009/2673067.htm

It is not really a question of sensitivity or harrassment, but one of fairness.  If you are not really "female", regardless of how you were raised,feel or look; it removes you from completing as a female in sports, at the amateur level. 

I think they (SA officials and Caster's family) were in denial, which I think has made the situation worse and now is a public relations nightmare and very disturbing, devestating and humiliating to Caster personally.  Stripped of your metal, public humiliation and also finding out you are a hermaphodite in one day is bad.


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## falmouth3 (Sep 11, 2009)

I just feel sorry for the young person.  It has to be not only humiliating, but drives to the individual's own identity.  Life isn't kind.

Sue


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## Bill4728 (Sep 11, 2009)

Sandy Lovell said:


> It is not really a question of sensitivity or harrassment, but one of fairness.  If you are not really "female", regardless of how you were raised,feel or look; it removes you from completing as a female in sports, at the amateur level.



That is right.  If you're are not female, you shouldn't be able to compete against females.


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## Ironwood (Sep 15, 2009)

We've probably all had enough of this rather tragic story, but the comments of Carl Lewis put a proper perspective on it, and where the blame should properly be placed!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/8256522.stm


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## pianodinosaur (Sep 15, 2009)

What ever happened to confidentiality?  

There are many misconceptions about intersex.  Sometimes the diagnosis can be very difficult.  There are true hermaphrodites and pseudohermaphrodites. True hermaphrodites are very rare.  The definition of a true hermaphrodite is that the individual has an ovary and a testicle or an ovo-testis. I have only seen this about two or three times in my life.  The main thing I remember about them is that the parents did not want this made public and as the children grew up, they did not want it made public either.

There are male pseudohermaphrodites and female pseudohermaphrodites. The male pseudohermaphrodites are genetically male and the female pseudohemaphrodites are genetically female. The best known example of a male pseudohermphrodite is testicular feminization syndrome.  Some people call it androgen insensitivity syndrome which seems logical since it caused by end organ insensitivity to testosterone.  Avodart and proscar work by blocking the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, which is the active form of testosterone. Therefore, end organs, such as the prostate, are blocked from the stimulation to grow by the testicles.  If a pregnant woman even handles these medications, her male offspring will most likely have feminized genetalia.

End organ androgen insensitivity to the effects of dihydrotestosterone come in a wide variety  of degrees.  There is a large population in the Dominican Republic where the children are born with ambiguous genetalia and are raised as girls until they hit puberty.  Then when the testosterone surge of puberty takes place, they start treating them as boys as the genetalia start to appear more masculine. 

End organ androgen sensitivity in its most extreme form leads to a phenotypically perfect female. However, they never menstuate because they do not have a uterus nor do they have ovaries.  The labia, clitoris, and vagina all appear perfectly female. The breasts are perfectly female.  However, they have undescended testicles and commonly have bilateral inguinal hernias. The diagnosis may not be made until a 17 or 18 year old girl wants to know why she has never started to menstruate and we discover that there are bilateral inguinal hernias and no uterus.  These young ladies are devastated when they find out about their medical condition but may lead a relatively normal life as an infertile woman.

I think this young lady has had her deepest and most personal medical history exposed for public scrutiny and that is a very sad thing indeed.


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## ricoba (Sep 19, 2009)

*South African Athletics Chief Admits to Lying [About] Semenya Tests*

Here is the story from today's Vancouver Sun

(Just for those who may think the Sun is another tabloid, that isn't the case with the Vancouver paper. It is the major paper in British Columbia, just happens to have the same moniker as some tabloid type papers.)


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## pedro47 (Sep 20, 2009)

It is a shame that a sporting governing body may determine her sexuality to run in the Olympic.


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