# When do we stop fully supporting our 21 year old?



## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

I have been struggling with this question for a year now.  Hubby and I are working two jobs each to make ends meet.  Part of the burden is supporting my 21 year old (step)daughter.  Her mom is unemployed and they live with relatives.  We have been paying for her college, her car payment, her gas allowance, her computer, her cell phone, car insurance, as well as clothing and for travel so we can see her (we are in Washington and she is in California).  She is transferring to state university this year and was lucky to secure grants for the majority of her tuition and fees, so we will just pay the difference as needed.

However, now that she is 21, is it normal that we should continue working two jobs each to support her fully?  I feel angry and resentful at times, and of course I feel guilty on top of it, guilty that I am resentful.

I also worry that we are not raising her to take responsibility and live on a budget.  We give her a monthly allowance for gas and incidentals and she runs out of it way before month end, and a large portion of those charges are entertainment - not basics.

This summer she is at home with no job - never looked for one.  I can see on her cell phone bill she spent 45 hours on the phone in the past 4 weeks.  That's like working full time for a week.

Am I unreasonable to feel that we should ask her to get a job?  Is is time to start saying no? Or do we continue sucking it up until she is done with her Bachelor - when she is 24?

I don't know what to believe, what's reasonable and healthy and what's not.  I came from a foreign poor country and paid my way through my phd with blood and sweat, never took a loan and nobody helped me.  I came to the US with $100 in my pocket and an admittance letter to a phd program.  Did not buy me a car until my 30's.  Maybe times have changed?

I'd love to hear what my tug friends think!  I know many of you are loving experienced parents.


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## slip (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes, you are enabling her. You should be helping her not doing everything.
The summer just started so you can tell her today to get a job. She'll find 
Something so don't accept it when she says she's looking.

I told my daughter that I would pay for her college but she had to take out a
Student loan and if she dropped out the loan was her responsibility. She 
Graduated and did receive some scholarships so that did help us. While in college
She paid for cell phones, gas and anything else. She had a part time job.

My son didn't go to college. We told him he had to get a job right away and he
Could stay with us for a yer for free to save up to live on his own. Within a year
He bought a house at 19, did a total remodel and moved out.

They are both responsible and doing well.

Help them don't do it all.
My two cents.


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## LUVourMarriotts (Jun 8, 2012)

When I was in college, I was on my own during the summer.  If I wanted gas money, entertainment, travel, whatever, I had to pay for it myself.  I was also responsible for earning enough money to pay for my entertainment during the school year.  For 2 summers, I was a Pizza Hut delivery driver.  I made really good money doing that.  For 2 summers I worked at a horse track in the maintenance department, cleaning the place and doing other odd jobs.

At the time, I felt like it was a drag to have to actually work, but now I know that it taught me a lot.  It also made me be cautious with my money during school, even though I knew my parents would sent me whatever if I needed it.

I didn't have a cell back then ('92-'96), so that would be one major difference.  But family plans should cover that.


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## geekette (Jun 8, 2012)

you have been far too generous and she is bleeding you dry on things she doesn't need because you have enabled her to spend all of your money on whatever she wants.  There is no way I would get a second job to pay for Fun Money for a kid of mine.  

She needs to be learning the value of a dollar because it might seem to her that there is always more where that came from, easily.

She is old enough to work, and has been old enough for a very long time.  There is no reason why you and your husband should still be sacrificing this much for her.  It's too much, and you need to be concerned about your health and your retirement.  

Clothing expenses should be minimal since she's not in a professional arena and past growth spurts.  Travel?  Ok, visiting YOU, fine, anythign else?  no way, vacations are earned.  Besides, you are already financing the car and gas and insurance!  

You know what to do, you just need the courage.  I suggest you have a discussion with her about how you came to be a self-sufficient adult and how it is time she also get there.  I would use the phrase "out on your own" A LOT in that discussion.  And you might scare the hell out of her by remindign her that you and pops won't always be there to pay the bill.  

Cut her back to school expenses only.  If she never has to get a job, she never will.  And you both work TWO JOBS?  Nuts to that!!!!  

Summer is as good a time to start as any.  waiting until after college to work would raise questions for me as a recruiter as to exactly how she spent those summers?  I would pass on someone that never worked UNLESS there were other productive pursuits.


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## Fern Modena (Jun 8, 2012)

I think part of your problem is that your husband may have different expectations of what is "reasonable" than you do.  If so, you will have to work it out with him.

It is reasonable, in my opinion, to have a 21 year old be at least partially self supporting.  If you had a lot of extra money (which it doesn't sound like you do), maybe it would be different, and maybe not.  Learning to be self supporting is a good idea, anyway.

If you decide that you should be supporting her, at least somewhat, during the school year, then you need to make her make a suggested budget, showing you how much money each thing she wants or needs funded is, not just a big, honking amount named incidentals.  What is incidental to her may be totally nonessential to you.  

Once you get her budget list, you look at it and see what you think of it.  Adjust it as you and your hubby see fit, and send it back to her with a note that tells her that this is her new budget, and you will only be sending her this amount.  You will not be sending her more money if she runs out before the end of the month.  She needs to work if she wants more money than you can provide, even if it is only a few hours a week.

Gasoline?  She runs out of money for it cause she uses the money for other things?  She should be sent gas debit cards for this, not money.  Then she can't use that money for other things.  Same for food money.  Make it a grocery debit card to the grocery store, not cash.  Control where the money goes if you must send it.  Clothes?  Not in my opinion.  She isn''t growing at that age, so she will have to learn to make do.  You don't buy a lot of new clothes, and you work, so why should she on your dime?  Travel?  Only to you and your hubby, and you pay by sending her confirmation numbers, buying the airfare yourself.

You have ways to control things, you have to step up and do it.  If you don't she will be asking/expecting money and support for the rest of her life.

Fern


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## ronparise (Jun 8, 2012)

Im going to disagree with a lot that has been said

First I think it is absolutely a parents responsibility to raise their children to be  independent, hard working adult. Domeone that contributes to society rather than takes

Having said that the question is when do you cut the cord....I think not all at once, rather is has to be a gradual thing. Going back 55 years, At age 10 I had a paper route, then part time and summer jobs through high college and ultimately I was ready to take my place in the work force, and pay for my own place  when I graduated....My daughter had part time jobs through school, and when I asked her if she wanted to come back home after graduating the andwer was NO!

My stepson was given 3 choices,,,either get into school and get his own place, Mom and Dad would pay, or get a job and get his own place, Mom and Dad would help. or join the military.....He enlisted in the Army. He went in a boy and came out a man

My point here is that there needs to be a transition from home with mom and dad to an independent life. And that transition should have started years ago. That it hasnt isnt entirely the childs fault...but it has to start now. them maybe she will be ready for a life on her own at age 24

To answer your questions 

Am I unreasonable to feel that we should ask her to get a job? NOIs is time to start saying no? YESOr do we continue sucking it up until she is done with her Bachelor - when she is 24....Im afraid you will continue to provide a lot of support through college, but the idea is that you will be done when she graduates


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you guys, I really appreciate your answers, it's just what I needed to hear so I can take courage to make changes.  We are meeting with her and her mom tonight since they are in town, and we will have that discussion today. So perfect timing for me to hear this reinforcement, and I am also going to send the thread to my husband to read!


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## pjrose (Jun 8, 2012)

First, she's your step daughter, so your DH needs to be the lead on this.  Why is her mother unemployed?  Shouldn't she and DH be sharing whatever is agreed that the young lady can't handle herself?  YOU shouldn't be working two jobs while her mother isn't...unless there's some serious situation that prevents her mother from working. 

Yes, you are enabling her.  You don't need to be working two jobs each.  SHE needs a job.  Or two, during the summer. And if it's bagging groceries, then it's bagging groceries.  

I do think it's ok to help with some things - I don't think 18 or 21 are magic numbers at which someone is instantly an adult. However, you shouldn't be fully supporting her when it doesn't sound like she's getting off her rear to do anything.  I wouldn't cut her off instantly, but the process of weaning her off needs to start now.  

I suggest a written and signed agreement - we will pay for (or help pay for) XXX and YYY.  I think tuition and medical are ok, especially if she would be on the medical from your job anyway.  Phone if it's not that much more for her to be on your family plan, as opposed to her spending more to have her own plan. 

Computer?  Is this the internet charge?  I assume internet exists wherever she lives so shouldn't cost more....but if you are paying the internet charge for someone else's house, no way.  She can go to the library to use a computer. 

If you're seeing entertainment charges, then tell her nope, we will cover specifically what we agreed to, and the rest is your problem.  

Car payments?  What's she doing with a car that's expensive enough to need payments?  uh uh, sell the car and get something used and cheap.  We are quite happy with our '93 and '94 Tauruses, and have never had a car payment 'cause we didn't buy them till they were already old enough to be cheap. 

Car insurance?  If she isn't too much more to have on your insurance, ok.....but she needs to contribute to that from HER job.  Time for her to pay YOU something per month for her car insurance, or perhaps for half of the insurance, depending on what she earns and how much it is.

Gas?  If that's on the list of what you agree to help with (up to a limit!), get her a gas card.  That way she can't spend gas money on movies and eating out.  Same with any other specifics - get her the specific cards for what you have agreed to cover.  

It's funny, we're supporting 20 y/o DD who WANTS to work, and has started several jobs, but due to medical issues she blacks out and bye-bye-job.  And then here's your step daughter who probably CAN work, but is happy not to.  Go figure.


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## lll1929 (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow, 21 and no summer job.  Thats an indication of how life will be after she graduates from college.  You and your husband are definately enablers and it sounds like she wasn't taught some serious financial lessons earlier in life. 

I would definately demand she get a job and pay for items (phone, gas, insurance).  If you all plan to foot the remaining of her educational expenses, she should at least want to help out on her other expenses.

I hate to say this, but she sounds kinds selfish, watching you all work your fingers to the bone while she sits back and relaxes.

Good luck.. 

When I lost my job, my kids were taught the value of saving, working etc.  Although it was hard, I am glad I went through a job loss because I don't know if I would have taught them and myself the valuable lesson of saving, debt and spending.


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## siesta (Jun 8, 2012)

Support her until she achieves her degree(s) and can start her career. My family(mom/dad and sisters) helped me through college, and even through rough times during law school. Now I make more then everyone combined, and have given back 10 fold, and will always continue to do so. That is what family is for, helping eachother reach their full potential, and picking up one another when they are down, or just making life easier for eachother.

I agree with others that supporting her and enabling her are two different things. And you and ur husband should find the balance between the two, to help her but at the same time not hold her back due to the comfort your love and support provides.


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## Luanne (Jun 8, 2012)

Just a comment on the other side.  My 21 yo college dd who is home for the summer has been applying for summer jobs.  She's gotten calls from a few places, but when they find out she's only available for the summer they're not interested in longer.  She has one place that would hire her, if their business picks up.  I've heard this same story from other parents.  So saying "just tell her to get a job" doesn't always work.


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

Unfortunately she lives very far from school and has to drive 2,000 miles a month to school, so we bought her a new gas economical car because it has to be reliable.  The reason she lives so far is because her mom lost her job in January 2011 and has not found a job since, so now they live with relatives.  Thus we pay the car payment ($565) and the gas allowance ($350 per month).  Her mom paid so far half of car insurance and almost half of community college expenses, but her unemployment will run out soon and it's all coming down on us. What drives me nuts is the tons of extra expenses - like new phone, software for school computer, renew the driver license, etc - it never ever ends.   And these extras add up to thousands and thousands.  Last October, a month after we bought her the new car, some guy with no insurance came from behind and hit her, the new car was in the shop for six months. Meanwhile she gets a rental car, and guess what, her foot slipped off the pedal and we had to pay $1,800 to fix it.  DH never made her pay for it, he just paid and told her to throw away the bad shoes.  I agree DH needs to be in with me on this...


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## Passepartout (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm in a common mind with PJRose. Help is one thing, but holding down extra jobs so an adult (step)child can have an entertaining life in college is something waaaay more. To keep peace in the family, make sure DH is on board. If not, there will be resentment, and within step-families, blood is thicker than later commitments.

An agreement and an allowance are perfectly reasonable requirements for her.

I find it interesting that within this group of people, there is great diversity. We find knowledge on a huge span of subjects within TUG. However, and I think it's because of the nature of timeshares, I can't think of any regular TUGgers who are not on some level, self-made. Most have worked for what they have, appreciate it, and are anxious to share both the knowledge and the physical advantages we have. We also tend to be a little intolerant of those we feel aren't doing their share.

Just an observation. I can't test my theory, but don't think you'd find the same universal exclamation of 'enabler' in a cross-section of society. 

Jim


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## pjrose (Jun 8, 2012)

OK, I do understand that jobs are hard to get.  So she might have to apply for jobs that aren't as nice or as fun.  Overnight desk clerk at a motel, bagging groceries, for example.  I know a lot of jobs that used to go to teens and college students now go to elderly people.  But she at least needs to TRY!  

And for the car, well, I'd have gone for a cheap used car anyway. [I just read Geekette's post below, and I agree fully with her on the car.]

How about having her share an apartment closer to school?  That's a heck of a lot of driving, and it might end up less expensive.  And she needs a part-time job while she's at school, even if only 10 hours a week at some student job at the school.  

I mentioned above that she may have to take a job she doesn't want - I forgot to add cleaning.  When DD worked as the night desk clerk at a motel, there were always complaints that the rooms weren't clean, because the motel couldn't find and keep people who were willing to clean rooms for minimum wage.  Well.....cleaning motel rooms or houses is a perfectly respectable job, and if that's what she can get, that's what she should do.  

Yes, DH needs to be in with you on this.  

If the only job she can find pays her $100 a week part-time, then that's $400 a month she can contribute.  Yes, the amount is important in terms of her expenses and your budget and work hours, but the fact that she contributes SOMETHING and cuts down on unnecessaries is even more important.


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## geekette (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Unfortunately she lives very far from school and has to drive 2,000 miles a month to school, so we bought her a new gas economical car because it has to be reliable.  The reason she lives so far is because her mom lost her job in January 2011 and has not found a job since, so now they live with relatives.  Thus we pay the car payment ($565) and the gas allowance ($350 per month).  Her mom paid so far half of car insurance and almost half of community college expenses, but her unemployment will run out soon and it's all coming down on us. What drives me nuts is the tons of extra expenses - like new phone, software for school computer, renew the driver license, etc - it never ever ends.   And these extras add up to thousands and thousands.  Last October, a month after we bought her the new car, some guy with no insurance came from behind and hit her, the new car was in the shop for six months. Meanwhile she gets a rental car, and guess what, her foot slipped off the pedal and we had to pay $800 to fix it.  DH never made her pay for it, he just paid and told her to throw away the bad shoes.  I agree DH needs to be in with me on this...



No, it is not all coming down on you, it should be coming down on the girl.  Her spending is out of control for someone with no income.  Unemployed mother, dad + stepmom working 2 jobs?  Cutting back should have occurred long ago.

But what really got me ....

Brand new car?  The only new car I ever had, I paid it all myself when I could afford it and drove whatever I could afford before that time.  a brand new car is a luxury that no one in this situation can afford, and it sure wouldn't be the kid driving the new one in my family, it would be the earners/workers.  Used Prius would work, plenty of compacts, pre-owned certifieds abound!  AAA can pick up the slack in peace of mind for a lot less AND provide discounts to other stuff.

I just replaced my vehicle and pay under $300 for a great 4 yo car that will last me at least 10 years.  The problem with a brand new car is also high plates, registration and Oh My, the insurance on a 21 yo!!!!!  

Dump it, get a cheaper car and decrease all of those expenses.  If she simply *must* have a new car then she can pay the full boatload herself.  Some Day.  the mileage to/from school, I understand - she's livign with others to keep that cost down, resulting in other costs.  If she can find a roommate on campus and educate, live and work there, that would help a lot.  IF it's feasible and I know nothing about college town rental homes/apartments out there.  

Seems her mother has also been enabling her, and what a sweet soul to be able to foot so much from unemployment $, but I don't understand how the girl can *take take take *when the adults are struggling Big Time.  

Time for Susie to wake up and smell the coffee - the free ride is ending.  Maybe she has expected this for some time but enjoyed it while it lasted, knowing reality was coming.  I hope so.  I want to believe that she is willing to be a responsible adult, that it's just that no one ever asked that of her.

awesome suggestions about the vendor-specific debit cards!

Good luck, Dear.  I hope the girl is mature enuf to understand economic realities and that it goes really well for all of you.  please keep us posted!!

And please do convey to her, as I am certain you know, that there is no shame in honest work, whatever that work is.  I have cleaned toilets and done it to the best of my ability, earning promotions on that job because I did not turn up my nose at unpleasant tasks.  There are jobs, they may just be bottom of the heap in terms of desirability and pay, but, ANY JOB pays better than sitting on my butt doing nothing but costing others money.


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## kenie (Jun 8, 2012)

Luanne said:


> Just a comment on the other side.  My 21 yo college dd who is home for the summer has been applying for summer jobs.  She's gotten calls from a few places, but when they find out she's only available for the summer they're not interested in longer.  She has one place that would hire her, if their business picks up.  I've heard this same story from other parents.  So saying "just tell her to get a job" doesn't always work.



Where I work it goes the other way. We just hired about 20 summer students. They have to be in or entering school in the fall and agree to work until the 1st week of September. As long as they work out, they come back every year until done school. They can bank 8-10 k in 4 months.
This helps us give as many of the full time employees time off during the summer as possible.
I'm surprised more companies don't do this. It's a win/win for everyone.


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## Luanne (Jun 8, 2012)

kenie said:


> Where I work it goes the other way. We just hired about 20 summer students. They have to be in or entering school in the fall and agree to work until the 1st week of September. As long as they work out, they come back every year until done school. They can bank 8-10 k in 4 months.
> This helps us give as many of the full time employees time off during the summer as possible.
> I'm surprised more companies don't do this. It's a win/win for everyone.



Sounds like she should have stayed in Vancouver for the summer.  That's where she had been attending school.  

What kind of business is it?


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## 6scoops (Jun 8, 2012)

I believe you should help her pay for college tuition and maybe her cell if she is on your family plan, but this is going way to far!  She should be actively looking for a job, there is no reason why she can't work in the summer and also while at school during the year.  Helping with expensive tuition is one thing but giving her an allowance when she is fully capable to get a job and support her own expenses is another.  If she is paying for things herself,maybe she will  not want to go out with her friends every friday night to the bars,  I guarantee if it is on your dime the party never has to end.  

My daughter (23), worked about 20 hours a week while in school full time, to pay for her food and living expenses we helped her cover tuition (after scholarships and loans)  and her apartment.  She went to the grocery store every week and made herself breakfast lunch and dinner, and new exactly what was left over for having fun with little time she had left during the week.  

You need to set some financial boundaries.


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## pjrose (Jun 8, 2012)

And may I add that she darn well better get good or at least decent grades?  If not, the gravy train ends, and she gets a minimum wage job and starts saving to pay her own tuition.

Why would college take till age 24?

Added for full disclosure - we pay 100% of our kids' college expenses BUT we started saving in our state's 529 when they were infants, so most of it is taken care of.  Most medical is covered by DH's insurance through work.  Neither of our kids drives.  DD makes occasional money babysitting, and DS makes occasional (and more) money computer consulting and doing other tech stuff.  We pay the cell phones, we pay clothes (within reason - DD is quite good at shopping sales, and DS rarely buys clothes).  We pay necessities and some of the rest - but not all.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 8, 2012)

To defend this generation a little....It's not just us...I grew up on Long Island and i'd say about 25-30% of my friend parents(while i was growing up) were still living in a house that was handed down to them by their parents...


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## presley (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> I have been struggling with this question for a year now.  Hubby and I are working two jobs each to make ends meet.  Part of the burden is supporting my 21 year old (step)daughter.  Her mom is unemployed and they live with relatives.  We have been paying for her college, her car payment, her gas allowance, her computer, her cell phone, car insurance, as well as clothing and for travel so we can see her (we are in Washington and she is in California).  She is transferring to state university this year and was lucky to secure grants for the majority of her tuition and fees, so we will just pay the difference as needed.



It's a hard call.  I am looking at that list and thinking about my own daughter of the same age.  I pay for community college and I pay all her insurance and her gas when drives to visit me.  I'll cover any medical/emergency issues.  She works and has an apartment with her boyfriend.  She isn't a full time student, so maybe things would be different if she were.

When her computer broke, I bought her a new one.  I pay cell phone and whenever I see her, I buy groceries, meals out clothes, etc.  I don't feel any of it is unreasonable, but she is working and paying most of her own expenses.


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## geekette (Jun 8, 2012)

it may work that way on the island but I know of nobody living in a house handed down.  not now, not childhood.  I won't ever be living in the house mom has.  

Aside from regional differences, might I suggest wealth differences??

no generation is being bashed.  it ain't about that.


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## Elan (Jun 8, 2012)

presley said:


> It's a hard call.  I am looking at that list and thinking about my own daughter of the same age.  I pay for community college and I pay all her insurance and her gas when drives to visit me.  I'll cover any medical/emergency issues.  She works and has an apartment with her boyfriend.  She isn't a full time student, so maybe things would be different if she were.
> 
> When her computer broke, I bought her a new one.  I pay cell phone and whenever I see her, I buy groceries, meals out clothes, etc.  I don't feel any of it is unreasonable, but she is working and paying most of her own expenses.



  You're supporting, not enabling.  You're doing what most any parent who has the means would do -- investing in your kid's future and bailing her out when bad things happen.  Big difference between what you're doing and busting your ass at 2 jobs so your daughter can talk on the phone all day.


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## ricoba (Jun 8, 2012)

I have a 19 year old and a 21 year old.  But these are both my kids so it is different for you for as others have said, these are your husbands kids and he needs to take the lead.

But about my two.  My son (21) was given options at the end of high school, work or school, but no just hanging about.  My daughter had the same options.

My son originally enrolled in CC but then decided to move to live in Canada with his relatives.  He soon found work at Wal-Mart and did school part-time.  He has never loved school, but he hated Wal-Mart, so he got off his own butt this past winter and got another (this time full-time) job that he now loves as a CS rep for Coastal Contacts (so if you need new glasses or contacts call Coastal and ask for Benjamin!).  He says he will go back to school in the future (I will wait and see, but with the encouragement of his company I think he may, since they seem very supportive for their employees to be able to upgrade their skills.

My daughter stayed at home and went directly to CSUDH full time.  She has not worked until now.  Just this past month she got a job with Hudson News working at LAX.  She has started at the news stand but is now working at the Kitson and eventually will be moved to the Hugo Boss store, plus she has to go back and forth to the news stand store to fill in from time to time.

Both of my children have been expected to "pay rent"  My son pays his Aunt a small amount and now that my daughter is working, she gave us her first small rent check last week.

We still help them as needed, but they are growing more independent, which is the goal that Cora and I have had for both of them.  They are still my kids and if they have an issue, I am going to help them out.  But we really believe that the more they learn to help themselves the better it is in the long term for each of them.  

Someday, I am hoping as well that in our retirement, that they will learn to return the favors we have done for them if we so need their help (just as I have helped my MIL in the past and parents as needed).  To me this is what family is for, to foster growth while still fostering independence without losing inter-dependence for each other. 

Again though your DH needs to be the one to take the lead.  

I can only speak for our circumstance, but for use we feel blessed because the seeds we laid when our kids were babies have started to bloom.


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

What a great conversation, I knew I would get more useful input from my tug family than anywhere else!

The one thing that is very clear to me from this is that DH needs to take the lead on it.  It should have been done long time ago.  When she bumped that rental car and we paid $1,800 without commenting, I was really upset at DH.  He's just the quiet type who will work to exhaustion and not complain.  

I totally agree that we need a change, a gradual change, and that we need to make that clear between DH and myself in the first place.  He is the quiet type but I know he feels the resentment too, he confessed it. 

The way I see it: We will continue to pay for the tuition, fees, and books not covered by her grants; we will finish paying for the car - it has been totaled within a month of having bought it so that must have dropped its value significantly anyway after being fixed.  We will continue the $350 a month support, which is supposed to go for gas mostly.  But I feel she needs to get a job enough to pay for the car insurance, cell phone bill, and other needs like new clothes or eating out or whatever is on her wish list.  My blood pressure goes up when I see her eating $20 in a meal out in town.  Or buying Maui Jim prescription sunglasses for $300.  Last year she bought $600 prescription sunglasses.  We refused to contribute in both cases, her mom must have bailed her out.  

She took three years to finish two years of community college work, and now she is transferring to state university, where I have a feeling she will take three years to finish two years worth of work.  I hope after those three years we can finally be off the hook, but during these three years, we need to impose some boundaries - to help prevent us from going insane working, and to help her start taking financial responsibility on her own.


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## geekette (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> ...She took three years to finish two years of community college work, and now she is transferring to state university, where I have a feeling she will take three years to finish two years worth of work.  I hope after those three years we can finally be off the hook, but during these three years, we need to impose some boundaries - to help prevent us from going insane working, and to help her start taking financial responsibility on her own.



Commit to 2 years ONLY.  If she can't get her act together enuf to make it thru in 2 years then she's not anxious to finish and hit reality and there is your certain proof.  

You haven't mentioned what she is studying, which could sway me a bit, but she doesn't work, so I see no reason whatsoever why she can't land a degree in 4 years.  I worked full time with full time school and came out with my degree in 4 years so I'm not seeing a problem other than lack of motivation.  or, milking the gravy train as long as possible.  Were I the, uh, undermotivated type, I might also want to keep on being a student as long as possible. why not?  sounds like a great life For Her!

I am a bit angry for you, actually.  If you feel your resolve slipping, just remember that no one can take advantage of you without your permission.  And no way in hell I would pay ANOTHER 3 years after the 3 down the hole already.  to me, another 2 years is plenty generous and if she needs more time, then she can work full time and cut school to part time as she can afford it.  But I would be Very Clear that after 2 years, she is on her own.  

She could live with me for a year after that, but pay rent (20% of income) and her share of groceries / chores and I would pay not a dime towards any of her expenses (car, phone, FUN).

is she an only child, by the way?


eta:  I would have cut her off completely at the sunglasses episode.  "Oh, you can afford those?  Well, I buy the $5 variety so I guess you no longer need financial help...."


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes, only child.

She first wanted to study nursing, but her GPA may not be high enough - 3.55 - state program nursing schools these days like Long beach have 3.9 GPA for admitted students.  Now she is looking into kinesiology or athletic training, and she was planning to do a physical therapy doctorate, which honestly I told her is a bad idea.  Average salary $86k for physical therapists in California, starting salary maybe $60k.  Cost of grad school $100k plus living expenses - not worth it for a job that pays $86k.  It's been all drama and crying since she heard those numbers, and we made it clear we can't help with grad school.

That would be the last drop, the thought of supporting her in grad school!

P.S. I am still wearing my scratched prescription sun glasses from a year ago, old prescription, $120 at Costco, fully reimbursed by insurance.  Waiting till next year when insurance kicks in to get a new pair.  How would I not be angry?


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## Tia (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> .... Or buying Maui Jim prescription sunglasses for $300.  Last year she bought $600 prescription sunglasses.  We refused to contribute in both cases, her mom must have bailed her out.
> 
> She took three years to finish two years of community college work, and now she is transferring to state university, where I have a feeling she will take three years to finish two years worth of work.  I hope after those three years we can finally be off the hook, but during these three years, we need to impose some boundaries - to help prevent us from going insane working, and to help her start taking financial responsibility on her own.



What?? $600 sunglasses! And eating out on your dime $20/meal obviously no budget in mind. Guess she has a money tree somewhere.....oh it's you!

Have a 19yo going to school full time and she  had a part time job the whole year and picked up a 32hr week job for the summer. She pays for all her own fun and has taken out subsidized school loans. We pay for the cell phone, older Honda Civic + car insurance, school tuition and an occasional something else......definitely NO $600 sunglasses!


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> I have been struggling with this question for a year now.  Hubby and I are working two jobs each to make ends meet.  Part of the burden is supporting my 21 year old (step)daughter.  Her mom is unemployed and they live with relatives.  We have been paying for her college, her car payment, her gas allowance, her computer, her cell phone, car insurance, as well as clothing and for travel so we can see her (we are in Washington and she is in California).  She is transferring to state university this year and was lucky to secure grants for the majority of her tuition and fees, so we will just pay the difference as needed.
> 
> However, now that she is 21, is it normal that we should continue working two jobs each to support her fully?  I feel angry and resentful at times, and of course I feel guilty on top of it, guilty that I am resentful.
> 
> ...



We're doing the same thing for our daughter and will do so until she gets established herself but the difference is she has a steady job at the local library for 20 hours a week. It doesn't earn her much but enough and teaches her responsibity. She pays for her own gas we paid for the car and insurance.


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## pjrose (Jun 8, 2012)

3.5 is a very respectable average.  But Geekette is right, you commit to TWO more years of tuition, she works part-time AND takes summer classes.  Which reminds me - why is she sitting on her rear not working when she could be doing a few summer classes - even online?  

It takes three years?  Well, then she should be glad she'll only have one year of college loans to pay back, rather than the four or six years others have.  

I support my kids WHILE THEY ARE IN SCHOOL.  I can afford to.  But again, they don't drive, and they usually don't spend unreasonably - certainly not expensive sunglasses. 

As far as grad school goes, I don't look at the value of an education just in dollars.  I would encourage graduate school in whatever field she ends up in.  HOWEVER,  by grad school, it's her dollars - or mostly hers and whatever financial aid she can scrounge with perhaps some occasional help from you - not your dollars.  

Grad students get grants and assistantships and fellowships and work or teach part or full time.  She can and should do the MS and Ph.D. on her own. 

This may sound a bit crass, but she is your step-daughter, not daughter.  It seems to me that any money contributed by you = a loan, perhaps you might give her 50% forgiveness when she graduates, but other than that I'd expect payback in some way - perhaps a new car for YOU when she can afford it? (And if so, tell her you'd rather have two used ones, thank you very much, you don't need something new that depreciates the instant it leaves the lot.) OTOH, if you were a major factor in bringing her up, and she lived with you and your DH, then maybe this is out of line.


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

Pjrose, I always treated her like my own child.  I did not raise her, and do not have my own children, so I "adopted" her.  Honestly the decision to not have my own children is linked to the fact that we have to work our butts off to get through this.  Nobody in her family went to school, so I watch over her school planning.  Her mom unfortunately is not a good example, she is very bad at managing her money, and has been unemployed for a long time, yet travels and volunteers at church all day, instead of prioritizing finding a job to help them move out on their own closer to school.  That drives us insane, too.


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## Big Matt (Jun 8, 2012)

Good idea in principle, but with a car payment of $585 per month, my guess is that there was very little money down.  Selling it now would probably require a bunch of cash to pay it off, which is probably not an option.  Seems like they may be stuck with it.  



geekette said:


> Dump it, get a cheaper car and decrease all of those expenses.  If she simply *must* have a new car then she can pay the full boatload herself.  Some Day.  the mileage to/from school, I understand - she's livign with others to keep that cost down, resulting in other costs.  If she can find a roommate on campus and educate, live and work there, that would help a lot.  IF it's feasible and I know nothing about college town rental homes/apartments out there.


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

We bought her an Elantra because of the fuel economy.  No sense to put money down since they had 1.99% financing, I believe.  She drives about 2,000 miles per month to school, and another 1,000 for social life - church, family gatherings, etc.  We went the used car route before and were paying more in repairs than car payments, due to the heavy usage.   We are half way through done with the car loan.  Not much savings to find there.  But we can definitely save if she gets a part time job to help pay for her gas and personal needs.



Big Matt said:


> Good idea in principle, but with a car payment of $585 per month, my guess is that there was very little money down.  Selling it now would probably require a bunch of cash to pay it off, which is probably not an option.  Seems like they may be stuck with it.


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## UWSurfer (Jun 8, 2012)

We've got a 24 y/o and twin 21 y/o's.   We put in money for a college fund for each of them when they were little and by the time they were ready to begin college it was clear it wasn't enough.  All went to community college after high school.   Each were given a used car from our household when they turned 18, with the expectation they'd need to pay for insurance and gas.  Maintenance and repairs we usually covered or helped with as needed.  All three had cell phones under our family plan but had to pay their share.  (Most of the time they did and we picked up the slack when they didn't).

Our agreement was they get free room and board at our home so long as they attended school.   If they quit school, they needed to move out or contribute to the household.  

The oldest thought he wanted to major in art, hated it and bounced around the CC for a couple years.  He took his college fund, bought an expensive computer for media production and moved out. 

The twins who had shared a room all their lives split with one moving into the oldest's former room.   4 months later oldest came back.  Rather than reward him by making the twins double up, we let oldest live in the dining room which was a pretty public area of the house while he figured out his next step.   Basically we wanted him to be safe and have a place to land, but not get too comfortable.   He lasted six months and moved in with his girlfriend.   He also figured out he only needed a math class to graduate and got that done.   He now works at a call center living with his GF and is on his own financially.

One twin did community college with his high school sweethart for a year and figured out he wasn't college material.  He worked at a Home Depot store part time.  He wrecked his car and after several months of taking the bus he took the insurance settlement, combined it with his college money and bought a used but in great condition Corolla. After the year in college they moved to Texas with GF's mom, got married and then divorced 18 months later.  He's working as a store manager in a home improvement store there and has been totally on his own since moving out.

Other twin stayed home, has done community college for three years, is one class shy of graduating and works 3/4 time.  He's looking to transfer to a CalState school next spring and will be covering his tuition.  He pays for all his expenses and toys (phones, computers, entertainment) and is about to move out and in with a friend as well.  The money in his college fund so far has remained untouched.

I would of liked to have been able to pay for their college and I would have liked to see them go to a 4 year school and graduate (and one may still), but they largely found their way and didn't get sucked into the wrong element and are generally responsible and respectable young men.


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## Ken555 (Jun 8, 2012)

ada903 said:


> We bought her an Elantra because of the fuel economy.  No sense to put money down since they had 1.99% financing, I believe.  She drives about 2,000 miles per month to school, and another 1,000 for social life - church, family gatherings, etc.  We went the used car route before and were paying more in repairs than car payments, due to the heavy usage.   We are half way through done with the car loan.  Not much savings to find there.  But we can definitely save if she gets a part time job to help pay for her gas and personal needs.



3,000 per month? Wow, that's like 4x my annual driving, and I'm in LA.


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## ada903 (Jun 8, 2012)

They live in Corona but community college classes were in San Jacinto and Menifee.  And starting fall she will drive to CSU Fullerton.  But I agree 3,000 is too much - lots of social activities in there.



Ken555 said:


> 3,000 per month? Wow, that's like 4x my annual driving, and I'm in LA.


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## PStreet1 (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm puzzled by how a person who hasn't been working can have spent 3 years finishing two years of community college.  She should have been taking a full load; if she didn't bother because taking a full load would interfere with her social life, then.......

I would insist on her carrying 17 hours a semester for the next two years.  There are classes on line she could be taking in her totally wasted summers--that would help her get out in 2 years.  

If she is actually worth a college education, she should be able to complete it within 4 years in my opinion.  She's already turned it into 5 years; I wouldn't tolerate her making the decision to lolly-gag through the rest of it.


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

Well we had a very good mature conversation with her and her mom tonight, and set boundaries.  There was no tension or resentment, which I was fearing.  It will be a good beginning for gradual change.  We will need to learn to show tough love from now on!


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## Stressy (Jun 9, 2012)

A,

She needs to go to the Mall and apply for a job at the Sunglass Hut..obviously she has tons of experience :hysterical: 

Oh gosh, just a little levity..hope it made you laugh.

If she going to commute to CSUF then her gas and miles should be cut in half (the commute to San Jacinto was twice that) so, that's a good thing.

I also agree with those who say your DH should lead but it should also be a united front so she can't "play" either one of you against the other or behind the other's back.

I'll support you in the 3 years to get out of CC (It's almost the norm without working really hard) BUT 2 years at CSUF and then you're done. She has all the GE credits and then some at 3 yrs in CC. She should only be concentrating on her major. The expectation for her (and my own son) is 2 years. 

You said she has grants and if she is commuting-then it shouldn't be much for you beyond what you are already doing as long as you lay down the law about "incidentals" This should come from her and whatever job she can manage..even if it's really part time. Whatever happened to the term "starving college student" ?

Some of me says to allow her to concentrate on her studies. The other part of me has watched my son take 15-18 units per semester. Work an unpaid internship at a local Assemblymen's office, and work weekends as a paid sports official..paying for his own gas, insurance, maintenance on his truck, books for school, computer, internet for his smartphone (I pay the 9.99-he pays the data at 30.00) and clothes. All while maintaining a high GPA. I have paid nearly zero for his CC..he had some merit scholarships and his job. I think I paid for a book here and there-but he also knows how to buy books CHEAP. I swear, I think he paid 1.99 for one online. It's all about applying yourself...but she can't/won't do that if she has financial help.

I think the difference is he wanted it more. Dare I say he "needs" it more.

Hold up! I'm having a great idea!! She played soccer, yes? Would she like to be a referee? Go on the Cal South Soccer website and look up how to become a referee. She needs a 2 day clinic and then a uniform...she could add the extra colors later. She could start with a local recreational league and build from there. It fits right in with her major too. It's good money..and she can decide when and when not to work. My kid works as much as he can. Even if you paid for her clinic and initial uniform-this might be money well spent. 

E-mail me if you have any questions.


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## pjrose (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Well we had a very good mature conversation with her and her mom tonight, and set boundaries.  There was no tension or resentment, which I was fearing.  It will be a good beginning for gradual change.  We will need to learn to show tough love from now on!



Good - please update your TUG family about the boundaries.


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## am1 (Jun 9, 2012)

Hopefully no resentment.  You will not know till later.  

If she does not have a summer job she should try creating one for herself.  Every hour she is working she is not spending money.  

I do think that increases in minimum wages have resoled in less job at that skill level need.  Most likely by now most summer jobs have been filled.

 An on campus apartment would most likely cheaper compared to paying for gas, car payments and not working during the hours of driving.

I would suggest she move out of California.  Maybe instate tuition is cheaper than she could get elsewhere but the cost of living is very high.   This will affect her after college and for the rest of her time in that state.  

I do believe that you have to wean her off support.  It seems like that is what you are planning to do.  Hopefully it works.


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## bogey21 (Jun 9, 2012)

My how the world has changed.  My parents paid for my first year in college.  I couldn't stand being depenent on them so I joined the Army during the Korean War to get the GI Bill and a few bucks in my pocket so I could pay my own way.  My Brother, eight years younger, saw what I did; talked to me about it; and joined the Army right out of High School. He never took a nickle from may parents after HS.

The deal I cut with my Son and Daughter was that I would pay for all the education they could handle and two cars each with the understanding that there would be no estate for them to share when I pass on.  I wasn't particulary pleased with first half of the deal but I guess it worked out ok as they are both grown and self sufficient.

George


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

Awesome suggestions from everyone, and so good to hear that kids can do well in school and still hold a job!  I am pushing for a permanent part time job so she can help herself pay rent so she doesn't commute, but we refused paying anything for rent.


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## jlf58 (Jun 9, 2012)

Your step daughter is playing you like a new basketball. Making Daddy feel guilty still about the divorce. The sad part is you guys will be the bad guy when you cut her free ride back a bit so expect that. Its time for her to grow up and regardless, know you guys were very supportive and should have no problem sleeping at night 




ada903 said:


> What a great conversation, I knew I would get more useful input from my tug family than anywhere else!
> 
> The one thing that is very clear to me from this is that DH needs to take the lead on it.  It should have been done long time ago.  When she bumped that rental car and we paid $1,800 without commenting, I was really upset at DH.  He's just the quiet type who will work to exhaustion and not complain.
> 
> ...


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks Fletch, and you are right about the emotional manipulation.  Good to "see" you!



Fletch said:


> Your step daughter is playing you like a new basketball. Making Daddy feel guilty still about the divorce. The sad part is you guys will be the bad guy when you cut her free ride back a bit so expect that. Its time for her to grow up and regardless, know you guys were very supportive and should have no problem sleeping at night


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## Kal (Jun 9, 2012)

lll1929 said:


> Wow, 21 and no summer job. Thats an indication of how life will be after she graduates from college. You and your husband are definately enablers and it sounds like she wasn't taught some serious financial lessons earlier in life....


 
The key word in this post is "enablers". We have friends where they are suffering from an enabled daughter. She got a Master's Degree in Accounting and that got her a job paying $60K per year right out of school. She lived at home for a year and the parents asked her to pay $200 per month (i.e. $6.66/day) for room and board. Her mother even washes her clothes and makes her bed.

Work travels put her on the road a fair amount of time so the daughter decided she was only going to pay $6/day that she was at home. They asked her to pay for the full month and she had a tantrum. She moved out to a girl friend's home that very night and won't even talk to her parents (she feels put upon)!

Tomorrow, she's moving into a studio apartment with rent at $1500/month. They finally got lucky but meetings are now scheduled with a shrink to salvage the "relationship".

This is an enabled generation where they expect everything to be given to them!


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## UWSurfer (Jun 9, 2012)

Not making any excuses for her, but  just a note that here in California these days, with the budget reductions the public colleges and universities have reduced class offerings by staggering numbers.   Even those students who do everything right, enroll in classes and register at the moment they are permitted to (like trying to get in A group boarding on Southwest), frequently can't get the classes they need to graduate in what traditionally was 2 or 4 years.

If they aren't on their game you can add at least another year to that as well.  If they are working 1/2 or full time getting some key classes which match their work schedule can be impossible at times if their work schedule isn't flexible.

I went through the same system a generation ago and took summer classes in addition to fall and spring and did my four year degree in four years, while working up to three pt jobs.  It would be six to seven now simply because the number of seats in the required classes are less and students who have been at an institution longer generally get earlier cracks at class selection than the newer ones.


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## lvhmbh (Jun 9, 2012)

Interesting reading!  I got an Associates Degree the first time I went to college.  The week after graduation my Mother told me to pay rent or move out.  She said "I won't have any child of mine tied to my apron strings".  I wasn't surprised as she also told me to get a summer job after I turned 16.  She had me look in February as "the college kids all wait until they get home and you have to beat them to it".  I worked all summer and realized how very hard it is to be a waitress.  Motivated me to get an education.  
Gas Card:  We enabled a prescription dependent niece for a while and found that a gas card can buy alot of things.  Check out the convenience stores at the gas station (cigarettes, soda, beer, etc.).  She can also fill up the tanks for her friends in exchange for money or "whatever".  
We are raising a 15 year old who informed me that he is getting a job next summer and asked if it was okay if he waited til then as some of his friends are working.  Yes, they can work when they are 14 in Florida and some started then.  
Stick to your guns and help this girl grow up!  Good luck!


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

I can't tell you all how much your feedback has helped, it gives me a great sense of relief and confidence that we are doing the right thing.  I have been wondering for years if I am just a selfish stepmom or there was really something wrong with this picture. We will stand our grounds, and it will take work with DH, as I know he carries deep inside the guilt for the divorce and is to a certain extent "buying" off forgiveness.  We said our first firm no last night when she asked us about helping her with rent so she doesn't commute so long.  So we said, get a part time job to help with rent, we can't afford it.  We have to say no from now on, but also we need to cut gradually on how much we do.


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## Kal (Jun 9, 2012)

When I went to school my Dad made me a deal.  He would match, dollar for dollar, whatever I earned myself.  That definitely gave me incentive to work.  I had three part time jobs during the school year and a full time job every summer.  Maybe I should give him a call and see if that deal still stands today!!


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## klpca (Jun 9, 2012)

A parent doesn't "owe" an adult child anything, so anything that is given is gravy. We decided what we could afford to offer to all three of our kids and have stuck with it. #3 is on track to graduate (in four years) next year. We just made our next-to-last tuition payment last week. We offered to pay tuition and basic living expenses for four years while they are in school. We also bought them a car at the end of high school. We could afford this without going into debt (although it has been a bit tough), but that's all we could do. I have made sure my kids understand the gift they have been given and I think that they are appreciative. All three have always worked.

Since you have been so generous for so long, it will be easier on both your husband and step daughter to phase out the support and saying no to the rent is a good start. Personally my next step would be the phone. Find out was the cost is for the most basic plan and offer to pay that much and not a penny more. I think that it's helpful to cover the basics, but covering luxuries is a slippery slope. It causes unnecessary resentment in the relationship and everyone less respect for everyone else. I'd sit down with her and have a frank talk about money (you know, the limited resource talk) so that she understands that it isn't personal, it's just the way it is. Let life teach her these other lessons. If she wants some nicer things, she'll just have to work for them. 

Oh yeah don't forget to set a time limit for support. I tell her two more years and that's it. Fair warning.


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## stmartinfan (Jun 9, 2012)

Until she can find a paying job, encourage her to find an internship or volunteer experience that will relate to her career goal.  With a good scholarship and college savings fund, our daughter didn't have to have a paid job during the school year but she volunteered with and became the executive director of a fund raising program on campus that gave her an excellent credential on her resume.  She also is a student who had to work hard for her grades, so keeping her GPA high was a focus for her as well, because she would have lost the scholarship that paid about half her expenses if they'd dropped.

With the competition in some career fields it's become expected that students will have several internships to be considered for an entry job.  As a hiring manager, I saw that happen often to grads...the ones that had career relevant experience, even if unpaid, got the first interviews over others.  So I can understand the value of some volunteer work.  Our daughter understood that we would not have allowed just hanging out.


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## mjm1 (Jun 9, 2012)

Your feelings are normal and we have felt them too.  Our son just graduated with his undergraduate degree and we paid his tuition and living expenses. We did insist that he have a job, which he did, but he never expanded the hours during the summer. Granted is is more difficult for younger adults to get a job in this environment, but he could have done more.  He has paid half of his car insurance, gas, etc.

He is now headed to his doctorate in physical therapy and he will be on his own.  He has applied for financial aid since he is now independent.  It will be interesting to see how he handles everything.

Our daughter on the other hand was a hand full and we pulled our financial support from her when she was 19 years old. There were a number of factors in this situation, but she needed the tough love approach. It was hard on us, but she is doing fine financially. It is interesting to hear her talk about how she has set up a budget. 

I agree with others who have suggested scaling back your support. As much as we want to help our kids, financial planners always recommend taking care of your retirement and current needs first, then focus on the kids.  Like you, I worked hard to put myself through school and came out in good shape.  Certainly developed a strong work ethic.  Your step daughter may feel let down at first, but if she puts in the effort and scales back on the luxuries, she will come out stronger in the long run.

I hope your discussion went well. You should be very proud of what you and your husband have done to help her to this point, and feel just as good about helping her stand more on her own two feet.


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## Chrisky (Jun 9, 2012)

Oh my goodness.  I have just read your post and am just shaking my head.  This may be harsh but your DH has just been enabling this young woman and now doesn't know where to stop.  When does she start paying for something?  I'd be cutting out quite a few things for sure.  I'd want to know why it's taken her an extra year to finish her college work.  That's where I would begin to set a limit.  Good grades, finish courses =you continue to help with tuition fees.  Not finishing in time = no more funding for school.  She would then have to get a job, any job, to pay for her tuition.
As far as the car, no way would I be covering all those costs.  Renting an apt. or setting her up in a group apt. would be much cheaper.  
When your DH speaks with her, some limits should be set and written down (like an agreement) that she has to sign and adhere to and definitely her Mother has to get in line as well.
I don't envy you at all.  Good luck with your upcoming discussions.


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## Stressy (Jun 9, 2012)

UWSurfer said:


> Not making any excuses for her, but  just a note that here in California these days, with the budget reductions the public colleges and universities have reduced class offerings by staggering numbers.   Even those students who do everything right, enroll in classes and register at the moment they are permitted to (like trying to get in A group boarding on Southwest), frequently can't get the classes they need to graduate in what traditionally was 2 or 4 years.
> 
> If they aren't on their game you can add at least another year to that as well.  If they are working 1/2 or full time getting some key classes which match their work schedule can be impossible at times if their work schedule isn't flexible.
> 
> I went through the same system a generation ago and took summer classes in addition to fall and spring and did my four year degree in four years, while working up to three pt jobs.  It would be six to seven now simply because the number of seats in the required classes are less and students who have been at an institution longer generally get earlier cracks at class selection than the newer ones.



100 % AGREE! 

Also, if anyone from California is reading this and considering Community College first for your High School student-see if your school  and/or local CC participates in the K-16 Bridge program. This program allows your incoming CC student PRIORITY (A boarding ) registration. It's huge. Students with zero incoming credits generally get bumped to the bottom..classes are full by then. The Bridge program gives them a huge lead and they are less likely to feel discouraged.


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## pjrose (Jun 9, 2012)

Friends of ours told their sons in college that everything they saved would be matched dollar for dollar toward a car.  One saved, one didn't.  

Ada, re the rent vs commute, when I read you refusing to pay rent so she wouldn't have to commute so long, I was surprised.  I would have gone in the other direction, encouraging her to live hear campus.  First, that'll give her more time to work and study, and Second, it'll take her away from being dependent on living with relatives.  It'll also make her more of the campus community, with other students who work and pay at least part of their own way.   It'd probably be the same - or maybe less - contribution from you either way.  HOWEVER, you shouldn't change what you and DH stuck to, not unless you pose it as "we've thought about your request, and we will....IF....."  

What did you all agree to?


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## Tia (Jun 9, 2012)

Less commute time is more time for part-time job, should be less gas, less wear and tear on parked vehicle.   Maybe you find a job, we will contribute to rent near campus?


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

We simply can't afford $565 car payments, car insurance, cell phone, $350 monthly allowance, and tuition and fees not covered by the grants - which is what we are already doing - and to help with rent.   If she finds a part time job, and rents a place, she can use the $350 allowance, which is mostly for gas, since she won't be needing that much gas - to pay for rent.

We are also trying to encourage her mother to find a job and move out of their relatives' house in Corona so they can both share rent for an apartment closer to school by Fullerton.  Her mom drives $300 worth of gas herself, since all their church and social life is in Orange County, and she pays $500 rent to the relatives.  Between their gas and their rent they currently pay in Corona, they could just move on their own to Fullerton, if they both get jobs - even if they are not great paying jobs, it will be enough.

I feel that if we pay the rent (which we cannot afford anyway on top of everything we already do), we are enabling her, and her mom, to further do nothing.

STRESSY!  You are a wealth of ideas.  I just remembered my brother in law down in Anaheim works to organize soccer tournaments for that association in So Cal.  We talked with him already and he will get her going into that direction, that would be an awesome opportunity, and good for her resume too. 



pjrose said:


> Friends of ours told their sons in college that everything they saved would be matched dollar for dollar toward a car.  One saved, one didn't.
> 
> Ada, re the rent vs commute, when I read you refusing to pay rent so she wouldn't have to commute so long, I was surprised.  I would have gone in the other direction, encouraging her to live hear campus.  First, that'll give her more time to work and study, and Second, it'll take her away from being dependent on living with relatives.  It'll also make her more of the campus community, with other students who work and pay at least part of their own way.   It'd probably be the same - or maybe less - contribution from you either way.  HOWEVER, you shouldn't change what you and DH stuck to, not unless you pose it as "we've thought about your request, and we will....IF....."
> 
> What did you all agree to?


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## pjrose (Jun 9, 2012)

I was thinking contributing to rent instead of gas.  Looks like that option has already been discussed, along with both of them getting jobs.


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## Wonka (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> we pay the car payment ($565).



What the heck kind of car is she driving with a $545 month car payment?


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## LisaH (Jun 9, 2012)

I agree. The car payment is sunk cost. It's not likely that you can save the car payment even she moves close to Fullerton. It's to her best interest to find a job near school to pay for the rent (just a room actually) nearby so she can save time, gas and car wear-n-tear. 
DS #1 just graduated from college and will move to Chicago. DS#2 is a freshman in San Diego. Neither had car (nor plan to have). Saved us quite a bit of money so we could contribute more towards their educations.


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

Yes, we made it clear that the time to get a job is now.

We did not draw on paper exactly when we will stop support, and what we will cut out in time, DH and myself need to have that conversation first, but we made it clear that we won't be covering anything additional - like rent - and that we need her to start pitching in gradually.



pjrose said:


> I was thinking contributing to rent instead of gas.  Looks like that option has already been discussed, along with both of them getting jobs.


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

A 2011 Elantra, we financed it for 3 years only.  The gas savings and reliability are great. 



Wonka said:


> What the heck kind of car is she driving with a $545 month car payment?


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## susieq (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Unfortunately she lives very far from school and has to drive 2,000 miles a month to school, so we bought her a new gas economical car because it has to be reliable.  The reason she lives so far is because her mom lost her job in January 2011 and has not found a job since, so now they live with relatives.  Thus we pay the car payment ($565) and the gas allowance ($350 per month).  Her mom paid so far half of car insurance and almost half of community college expenses, but her unemployment will run out soon and it's all coming down on us. What drives me nuts is the tons of extra expenses - like new phone, software for school computer, renew the driver license, etc - it never ever ends.   And these extras add up to thousands and thousands.  Last October, a month after we bought her the new car, some guy with no insurance came from behind and hit her, the new car was in the shop for six months. Meanwhile she gets a rental car, and guess what, her foot slipped off the pedal and we had to pay $1,800 to fix it.  DH never made her pay for it, he just paid and told her to throw away the bad shoes.  I agree DH needs to be in with me on this...




I haven't read all the posts yet, but if it hasn't been suggested before, have her get to the admissions office at her school now and apply for a Pell Grant ~ with her primary parent with no income but unemployment, she should qualify ~ and a grant needn't be paid back!!


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

She has already qualified for a partial Pell grant, thank you Susie  



susieq said:


> I haven't read all the posts yet, but if it hasn't been suggested before, have her get to the admissions office at her school now and apply for a Pell Grant ~ with her primary parent with no income but unemployment, she should qualify ~ and a grant needn't be paid back!!


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## wauhob3 (Jun 9, 2012)

Your step-daughter would also qualify for work study. My daughter just finished her freshman year in college. She qualified for some scholarships and has to take the stafford loan and we pay the rest. We also pay for her cell phone. She has worked a summer job since 15. She works for a vendor at the local state park. Not glamous but a job. Then she uses that money all year to pay for entertainment and some clothes while away at school. We do not give her a cash allowance. She just started driving and she will not have her own car this summer but we will pay for the additional insurance and gas when she borrows are cars. She won't have a car on campus at least this next year. Next summer we may help her get a used car. I generally purchase her clothes when shopping together but sometimes make deals with her to split it especially if I don't care for it or already bought her a few things. 

One of my favorite lines is you are an adult you should purchase it if you want it. Then she reminds me President Obama reclassified adults to age 26. Its our little routine.  

She is a budget shopper. She does go to school with some girls who have unlimited money to spend but never seems resentful that she has to pay her own way for things like that. She knows though I started work at the same age as her but worked year round and paid for my own clothes. She also knows I was self supporting at age 18 and paid my own way through college. 

I was wondering though why your step daughter won't live on campus next year? It seems her living situation isn't the best and she wouldn't even have to have a car on campus.  The college experience is much different living on campus then commuting. I also agree with those that mentioned an internship or colunteer experience. She could benefit from the resume building.


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## Stressy (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> She has already qualified for a partial Pell grant, thank you Susie



Awesome! If she qualifies for a Pell Grant-can she/did she get a Cal Grant too?


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## Stressy (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> We simply can't afford $565 car payments, car insurance, cell phone, $350 monthly allowance, and tuition and fees not covered by the grants - which is what we are already doing - and to help with rent.   If she finds a part time job, and rents a place, she can use the $350 allowance, which is mostly for gas, since she won't be needing that much gas - to pay for rent.
> 
> We are also trying to encourage her mother to find a job and move out of their relatives' house in Corona so they can both share rent for an apartment closer to school by Fullerton.  Her mom drives $300 worth of gas herself, since all their church and social life is in Orange County, and she pays $500 rent to the relatives.  Between their gas and their rent they currently pay in Corona, they could just move on their own to Fullerton, if they both get jobs - even if they are not great paying jobs, it will be enough.
> 
> ...



PERFECT! This is something she can do for many years...if she enjoys it. Even if she works another job or even a full time job later. Many referees have other occupations and just do this on the weekends/evenings for fun, exercise, and of course, money.


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## ada903 (Jun 9, 2012)

Stressy, yes, she qualified for the cal grant as well - it looks like we need to pay about half of the school for the first year out of pocket. And I am going to register her for the referee training! You did some good work this weekend!


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## LisaH (Jun 9, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Stressy, yes, she qualified for the cal grant as well - it looks like we need to pay about half of the school for the first year out of pocket.  And I am going to register her for the referee training!  You did some good work this weekend!



ada, you are great mom! By setting up limits, you are doing your step daughter a tremendous favor. I hope one day she will thank you...
I hope the referee training will work out for her.


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## Zac495 (Jun 10, 2012)

Outrageous that she has a car payment of over 500 dollars! Should you help her while she's in school? Yes for sure. But you can't work 2 jobs. That's just insane. If she can't find a job(it is a tough time - though there's  no reason she can't find one eventually) have her sell the car, change phone plans, etc. 

If I were you, quit your second job. Tell your DH to get his ex to help out - you guys are enabling both of them! Update us please.
Ellen


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

Thanks girls.. my second job is something I can do on my own schedule - weekends, early mornings, lunch breaks and evenings - and it is something I like (timeshare rentals and resales), so that helps a lot.  Thank God for timeshares!  It is still very hard to not have any time off, ever, and to manage the household - groceries, cooking, laundry, and all the things of life - on top of it.

Again, the car is half paid off and a sunken cost.  It got totaled a month after it was purchased, it cost 12k and they took six months to fix it (incompetent shop recommended by Hyundai themselves).  It was not her fault, guy with no insurance bumped her bad from behind, although honestly if she would have been driving less for social activities, this wouldn't have happened.  That's another story.  I don't know that we would get much out of selling it at this point, and she will need a car anyway to be able to commute to a job, even if they move close to school.

We will definitely implement boundaries in all other areas.  We used to pay for all incidentals and that will stop - for example we are supposed to renew our phones, they are two years old - I am going to let her figure out how she can buy her own phone.  We can't change everything over night, but we can set boundaries and gradually withdraw support until she becomes independent in no more than 2-3 years.


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## MommaBear (Jun 10, 2012)

ada903 said:


> We will definitely implement boundaries in all other areas.  We used to pay for all incidentals and that will stop - for example we are supposed to renew our phones, they are two years old - I am going to let her figure out how she can buy her own phone.  We can't change everything over night, but we can set boundaries and gradually withdraw support until she becomes independent in no more than 2-3 years.



Sounds like you have a great plan. We did the same, and you are helping her to become an independant self supporting adult without taking the safety net away completely. We still operate the "National Bank of Mom and Dad" and we do still float short term loans to our kids when they hit the rocky patches. They always pay us back, sometimes with house repairs, cooking or other "in kind" work, or even better, in cash. Our line in the sand is when they drive a better car than us, eat out more than us, buy more clothes or have a better cell phone plan than us, they obviously do not need me to be working a second job to support their habits.


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## Kal (Jun 10, 2012)

Wonka said:


> What the heck kind of car is she driving with a $545 month car payment?


 
It's a brand new "Princess" car with the "fully enabled" package and right off the Beverly Hills assembly line! 

Do you really think it should be a used 2-door Hundai with a roof rack, seat covers and only 150,000 miles??


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## bogey21 (Jun 10, 2012)

Stressy said:


> Awesome! If she qualifies for a Pell Grant-can she/did she get a Cal Grant too?



This is part of the problem.  The prevailing attitude is let's get the money from someone else.  Federal Income Tax Payers pay for the Pell Grants.  California Income Tax Payers pay for the Cal Grants.  

Yes, I went to school on the GI Bill but I figure that I earned it with 16 months in Korea, some of it in combat, earning all of $109 per month.  What have recipients of Government grants done to earn them?

George


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## jlf58 (Jun 10, 2012)

good point Wonka LOL

 I drive a loaded Nissan Maxima, sticker like 33k and I pay $400 a month  






Kal said:


> It's a brand new "Princess" car with the "fully enabled" package and right off the Beverly Hills assembly line!
> 
> Do you really think it should be a used 2-door Hundai with a roof rack, seat covers and only 150,000 miles??


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

I get all your points about the car.  She had an older Acura and the repairs were amounting to a lot because of the 3,000 miles a month heavy use; and the gas usage was higher.  We figured this car would last her for a long time, past college.  It doesn't make financial (and emotional) sense at this point to change that, we will be done with it in another year and a half.


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## klpca (Jun 10, 2012)

bogey21 said:


> This is part of the problem.  The prevailing attitude is let's get the money from someone else.  Federal Income Tax Payers pay for the Pell Grants.  California Income Tax Payers pay for the Cal Grants.
> 
> Yes, I went to school on the GI Bill but I figure that I earned it with 16 months in Korea, some of it in combat, earning all of $109 per month.  What have recipients of Government grants done to earn them?
> 
> George



Back in the 80's, I went through school with no parental help. I received academic scholarships, Pell Grants, Cal Grants, and student loans. The student loans were paid back years ago. I work in a professional capacity and with the taxes that I have paid I'm sure that the grants were probably "repaid" long ago as well. We have three kids and paid in full for their college expenses. Two are on their own now, working and paying taxes (one is still in college). I'm pretty sure that's how the system is supposed to work. I have always been gratetful for the opportunities that I was given in college. It was a game changer for me.


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## Kal (Jun 10, 2012)

ada903 said:


> ...We figured this car would last her for a long time, past college. It doesn't make financial (and emotional) sense at this point to change that, we will be done with it in another year and a half.


 
Yes, just another $10,000 and you will be done with it. But who's paying the insurance for that high priced ride??? Who's paying for the gas??  

I really do hear where you're coming from, but you're talking about providing a very nice car for far beyond college. The real point is how much of the car payment will SHE contribute for her asset, starting now? You don't even want to know what used car I was driving in college; hint, it cost $600.

$10,000 here, $5,000 there and pretty soon it's like real money.


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## Zac495 (Jun 10, 2012)

Kal said:


> Yes, just another $10,000 and you will be done with it. But who's paying the insurance for that high priced ride??? Who's paying for the gas??
> 
> I really do hear where you're coming from, but you're talking about providing a very nice car for far beyond college. The real point is how much of the car payment will SHE contribute for her asset, starting now? You don't even want to know what used car I was driving in college; hint, it cost $600.
> 
> $10,000 here, $5,000 there and pretty soon it's like real money.



I agree. No way would I pay for the car and the insurance under these circumstances. I pay my step daughter's car insurance in exchange for her driving Zoe to cheerleading. What's she doing for you?


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## am1 (Jun 10, 2012)

bogey21 said:


> This is part of the problem.  The prevailing attitude is let's get the money from someone else.  Federal Income Tax Payers pay for the Pell Grants.  California Income Tax Payers pay for the Cal Grants.
> 
> Yes, I went to school on the GI Bill but I figure that I earned it with 16 months in Korea, some of it in combat, earning all of $109 per month.  What have recipients of Government grants done to earn them?
> 
> George



The price of university can be very expensive in places.  Something has to be done about that.  

University is great as a life experience but not everyone needs to attend to get a job.  

After high school maybe a one year program could be developed for people that are not going to attend a 4 year program.  Life skills would be taught and practiced.  

In Quebec, tuition is very low and the proposed increases are minimal yet people have been protesting every night.


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

I know, I rode the bus both in college and in grad school.  I bought my first car at 35, this past November.  For seven years I drove an old 1995 BMW that had belonged to my husband before we met.  So I know where you come from.

It would be very radical to take away the car, especially that she still lives far from school and needs to get a job - which requires driving.  We can make other changes - like asking her to cover the insurance, her cell phone (perhaps the data plan, and we just pay for the line), and her rent, and refusing to cover incidentals like we used to.  

But I hear you all.  If they do move closer to school, getting a cheaper car may be a consideration.  I worry about what we can sell this car for, given that it was totaled and remade, and that's on the carfax record. 



Kal said:


> Yes, just another $10,000 and you will be done with it. But who's paying the insurance for that high priced ride??? Who's paying for the gas??
> 
> I really do hear where you're coming from, but you're talking about providing a very nice car for far beyond college. The real point is how much of the car payment will SHE contribute for her asset, starting now? You don't even want to know what used car I was driving in college; hint, it cost $600.
> 
> $10,000 here, $5,000 there and pretty soon it's like real money.


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## am1 (Jun 10, 2012)

ada903 said:


> I worry about what we can sell this car for, given that it was totaled and remade, and that's on the carfax record.



It is too bad they did not write off the car when it was totalled.  That would have been a blessing in disguise.


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## Kal (Jun 10, 2012)

We all recognize you have a serious problem that has been in the making for years.  Someone has built a castle in the sky, and she has moving into it.  There's always a thousand excuses for not changing the direction but the first step is the most difficult.

If I were in this situation I would make it a partnership.  Establish a maximum annual limit for your contribution.  Then have her sit down with both parents and establish a line-item budget as to how that money will be spent.  This will for the first time let her know the true cost of living.  She can then decide how she will spend that money and what she needs to do to pay for the balance.  Those steps may include student loans, grants, getting a job, housing location, cell phone economy and all the things you and I deal with every single day.  When she has "skin in the game", I'll bet she can find lots of reasons for changing the direction.

Then you can establish a bonus system with incentives where her very hard work and earnings will result in more contributions from you to her.  And who knows, this very might well prepare her for the real world.

Be ready for future drama where she can't find a job (to her liking) and cannot cut off the free money supply.


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

They should have.  The shop that fixed it did not estimate properly how much it was going to take to fix it adequately.  We took it back five times in six months - the frame was not straight, the trunk was not closing properly, etc.  By the time they came up with 12k in repairs - more than half the value - they had already invested too much in fixing it.  We almost sued the darn shop.  Shop recommended by Hyundai dealership themselves. 

We could offer her to sell the car, pay it off, stop the gas allowance, stop the car insurance payment, and just pay for campus accommodations and the meal plan.  No car.  Hmm. 



am1 said:


> It is too bad they did not write off the car when it was totalled.  That would have been a blessing in disguise.


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## jlf58 (Jun 10, 2012)

I get that, just asking why not a $250 a month leased car when you did it ? 
Boy, did she play you guys 





ada903 said:


> I get all your points about the car.  She had an older Acura and the repairs were amounting to a lot because of the 3,000 miles a month heavy use; and the gas usage was higher.  We figured this car would last her for a long time, past college.  It doesn't make financial (and emotional) sense at this point to change that, we will be done with it in another year and a half.


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## siesta (Jun 10, 2012)

bogey21 said:


> This is part of the problem.  The prevailing attitude is let's get the money from someone else.  Federal Income Tax Payers pay for the Pell Grants.  California Income Tax Payers pay for the Cal Grants.
> 
> Yes, I went to school on the GI Bill but I figure that I earned it with 16 months in Korea, some of it in combat, earning all of $109 per month.  What have recipients of Government grants done to earn them?
> 
> George


grants are not "part of the problem." Education, and accessibility to it, is one of the most important things we can offer younger generations, as well as our country. This isnt free money, ths is for young students who have met eligibility requirements, and who our state or federal gov has deemed worthy of that investment, and who WE, the parents, are paying for.

Its important to help our younger generations to be able to afford college or grad school with the rising cost of tuition, and ensure they are not buried in debt anymore than they have to be when getting out of college and facing a dismal job market in the current economy.

I'm not sure if you were part of the 1.5mil inducted or the 1.3 that volunteered during the Korean War, but either way you absolutely deserved the benefits under the GI bill. But your implication in your statement "what have the recipients of gov. grants done to earn them?" is missing the mark entirely.


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## Kal (Jun 10, 2012)

Fletch said:


> I get that, just asking why not a $250 a month leased car when you did it ?
> Boy, did she play you guys


 
I'm not so sure she had a major "play role" in that decision logic.  When you peal back all the layers you will get to the kernel of the issue.


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## bogey21 (Jun 10, 2012)

am1 said:


> The price of university can be very expensive in places.  Something has to be done about that.



True.  It can be expensive.  How about shopping?  I spent the last two college years of my college experience going to school in Illinois, 900 miles from my home in Philadelphia because it was about 80% cheaper and in a town where I could rent a room in a private home at a very reasonable cost.

George


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

As I said before, we did the math on a used car, the repairs when driving it heavily for 3,000 miles a month, the gas savings, the interest rate on the new car, and decided to go with the 2011 Elantra.  We figured she will have this car for 10 years to drive without having to fix anything.  The insurance cost is the same as the old Acura she was driving.  It was costing as much to fix that clunker and gas it as the new car payments.  You pay one way or the other when you need to drive 3,000 miles a month.  You pay gas and repairs on a clunker, or you make a higher car payment on a reliable gas economical car.


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## bogey21 (Jun 10, 2012)

siesta said:


> I'm not sure if you were part of the 1.5mil inducted or the 1.3 that volunteered during the Korean War.



For the record I went to my local draft board and asked that my name be moved to the top of the list.  Seven days later I was an Army trainee in Fort Jackson, SC.  I did this because draftees served two year tours while enlistees agreed to either three or four year tours depending on the branch of the service they chose.

George


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 10, 2012)

What is depreciating that car NOW is 3,000 miles a month or 36,000 miles a year or 360,000 over 10 years. And w/o REPAIRS? 

You should be replacing a FULL set of TIRES every year. And oil changes EVERY OTHER MONTH?

I would move her to a room in college town TOMORROW and prepay 2 months, take the car back, cancel the cell phone, and NOT SEND her another penny UNTIL she sends you her grades at the end of the term. (Around here, she could get in 2 courses for the 2nd part of the summer session). Send her $40/month for 3 months for each "C", $75 for each "B", and $115 for each "A" only on REQUIRED course for her MAJOR.

See how fast she figures out _stuff_ when she is hungry - like the food bank, public buses, a PT job or two .... 

*Dang, she is NOT an 18 yo.* 

As for the car, sell it or keep it for YOUR usage. It will not be worth even the $1K after she had put 108,000 miles on it w/o any maintenance. Cut YOUR loses IMMEDIATELY.

Also, I believe she SHOULD have reported all those "cash" and gifts of value you have been giving her for years. Your husband's SUPPORT checks (gifts) were part of her and her mother's INCOME which might have knocked her out of some (or all) of those GRANTS. So if either of them makes noise about your "lack" of support, ask for copies of those forms. If I was YOU, I would be downloading those forms and instructions tonight .... fraud is fraud.


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## pianodinosaur (Jun 10, 2012)

I do not have any children.  I have been financially independent from my parents since I was 18 years old.  That being said, I have always tried to be respectful to my parents.  Whenever I visited my parents home as an adult,  I followed their rules.  Not all children are the same and perhaps they should not all be held to the same standards.  Just because I was independent at 18 does not mean all children are ready to independent at age 18. 

There are several factors that I think should be taken into consideration from the perspective of someone who has been a dependent child but who has never been a parent.  Is your daughter or step daughter treating you with respect?  If she is not treating you with respect, I think you need to cut the umbilical cord immediately. If she is treating you with respect, studies hard, makes good grades, avoids street drugs, and does not become pregnant, then I think helping her might be appropriate.  The job market is very difficult right now.  Does your daughter have some kind of medical problem?  It would be very difficult for a loving parent to turn their back on a sick child.  There are many other circumstances to consider as well, but, I do not envy the OP her difficult situation.


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## am1 (Jun 10, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> What is depreciating that car NOW is 3,000 miles a month or 36,000 miles a year or 360,000 over 10 years. And w/o REPAIRS?



I agree the car is depreciating more than you are paying each month.  You would be best to use the car yourself if needed.  Help out with living accommodations near the school.  

If you use the car or sell it there will be resentment.


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## wauhob3 (Jun 10, 2012)

bogey21 said:


> This is part of the problem.  The prevailing attitude is let's get the money from someone else.  Federal Income Tax Payers pay for the Pell Grants.  California Income Tax Payers pay for the Cal Grants.
> 
> Yes, I went to school on the GI Bill but I figure that I earned it with 16 months in Korea, some of it in combat, earning all of $109 per month.  What have recipients of Government grants done to earn them?
> 
> George



I want some of my taxes to go toPell grants. College shouldn't only be for those with parents who are willing and able to pay. Paying as you go along is not feasible for those on a minimum wage salary. It only covers enough for a community college at best and still usually takes a student loan too. I'd rather help those motivated become higher wage earners and tax payers.


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## ada903 (Jun 10, 2012)

She put down everything we gave her on the FASFA application, and that's what put her into partial grants, without our help, she would have qualified for full grants since her mom is unemployed and running out her unemployment. We don't claim her on taxes, her mom does.  We are paying out of pocket for part of her school. Looks like about half this year.  Ironically, if we had not helped her, she would have qualified for more grant funding.  But we did the best we could.  I myself have earned all my scholarships, they were merit fellowships and teaching assistantships.  I did not take a penny of low income or other form of state assistance in my whole life, and I am proud of it. 

Again, I definitely thank those of you that took time to share their parenthood experience, I have learnt a lot in the past few days, and it will be put to great use.



vacationhopeful said:


> What is depreciating that car NOW is 3,000 miles a month or 36,000 miles a year or 360,000 over 10 years. And w/o REPAIRS?
> 
> You should be replacing a FULL set of TIRES every year. And oil changes EVERY OTHER MONTH?
> 
> ...


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jun 11, 2012)

Keep your chin up!  It is easy for other to tell you what they would do but they aren't involved emotionally.

These things are always tough.  Hang in there.  I think, she sounds like a great girl with 3.5 GPA.   I hope you all figure out a solution that works for everyone involved.


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## MuranoJo (Jun 11, 2012)

Ada,
I also wanted to pipe in and say I know you are getting a lot of 'tough love' messages.  (And, frankly, I also am concerned about what appears to be increasing 'coddling' of some of our kids these days, and I posted the same on another thread.)

But I also understand this is sticky with the step-child & father's guilt situation.  I think you are making progress and the best of a sticky situation, so I also say, "Hang in there."

Best of luck.


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## klpca (Jun 11, 2012)

Btw, if "mom" is unemployed maybe she would let you guys claim your step daughter. It can't be saving any taxes on her return.

And I thought that you only reported the custodial parents income on the Fafsa? (but i could be wrong on this. I heard about it from a friend).Maybe it's too late to fix for this year but I'd look into that for next year.


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## JanT (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi A,

 

Read through the thread and just want to tell you that you are a *MUCH* nicer step-mom than I am.  I am lucky because hubby and I have always fully agreed on kid issues and stuck together when his kids and ex-wife tried the guilt trip thing.  He *more* than met his financial obligations to his children while they were at home.  As adults some of them have come to us for financial help and we did small things like a new refrigerator for a new house.  The only time we didn't agree on a money issue was when his son asked for a "loan" of $5000 for a down payment on lease with option to buy a house deal.  I absolutey did not want to give it to him because I knew he was being dishonest about why he wanted it.  But, hubby believed him and against my advice "loaned" it to him with the stipulation that he had to pay it back at $1000 per year for five years.  Long story short, he lied to his dad as I suspected and we've never seen a dime of the money back even though we asked him about it repeatedy.  I have not said, "I told you so" to hubby though - in the interest of not making him feel worse than he did to be lied to by his son.  I hate to say it but several of his children have no qualms asking for money, free use of our timeshare weeks, big contributions to our grandchildren's activities, etc.  For the most part, they are not getting it.  They all have iphones, new computers, take trips, etc.  They can cut those things out if they want other things.  I do not feel as if we owe any of our children anything (and I consider his children to be my children).

His parents didn't pay a dime of anything for his education and neither did mine.  We each did it on our own - just like you did.  We're not going to work two jobs each and kill ourselves to fund things for our kids.  They are going to have to find their way, just like we did.  It sounds mean but that's just the way it is.  I didn't work my whole life to scrimp in retirement so my kids could have all the latest "goodies" without working for them.  Unfortunately, today's "gotta have it NOW" generation is being sorely enabled by parents who can't cut the ties to their children.  If the parents HAVE the money and want to use it for their children's education, that's one thing.  But, to work two jobs each and barely make ends meet to do it?  Nah......no one owes their children that.

I think you have a good plan in place and together with hubby you will find the balance that you need.  But, as you said, stand firm in your decisions and let hubby take the lead on it but, you stand at-the-ready to help him stay strong.

Miss you, my friend!

Jan


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## ada903 (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi Jan, good to "see you" my friend!  As usual you are sharing your heart and life experiences with so much love and compassion! Hugs back to you!

Lots of tough love here indeed, but I agree with the large majority of the feedback.  My challenge will be working with DH.  We signed her up yesterday for the soccer referee training, and I suggested we let her pay the $65 sign up fee from her allowance, now that it's summer and she doesn't need that much gas for school.  He didn't want to.  I suggested she should figure out on her own how to get a new phone when time comes to upgrade, that did not work either.  His concept is that we should continue full support until she gets a job and can pay the bills, whereas I would like to put her in a position where we motivate her to go get a job.  That will be my cross to carry, but I am not afraid to do it.  I am the highest earner between the two of us, putting the most towards the expenses, and I can just say no from now on to whatever I find that's inadequate.  I know DH has the maturity to come along, it takes him time to digest this but it will happen.


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## Tia (Jun 11, 2012)

ada903 said:


> ............
> Lots of tough love here indeed, ...... I would like to put her in a position where we motivate her to go get a job. ......



I think your onto something, there will be no change unless somethings change ie making it necessary to get a job or suffer just a little . Otherwise no reason to change as have everything she wants.


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## PStreet1 (Jun 11, 2012)

In my opinion, Tia is 100% right.  The girl needs to realize that life requires choices--and so far, that doesn't seem to be part of her thinking because you and your husband have enabled her to live without having to make choices.

1.  Want a college education and don't have a lot of money?  Choice:  take a cheap room close to the school and use public transportation and eat Ramen noodles--she's young; she can cope or get 2/3rds of your parents to work two jobs so you can do it the way you want.
2.  What about church and friends where I've always lived?  Choice:  want the education and new friends/church in the college town or want to do without the education and be close to the old social life or get 2/3rds of your parents to work two jobs and do it the way you want.
3.  Want a college education and don't have a lot of money?  Choice:  go to an inexpensive school for at least part of the education; take on-line courses to aquire credit cheaply or get 2/3rds of your parents to work two jobs so you can do it the way you want.
4.  Can't get all the courses you need at the time you need them?  Choice:  take other courses that can apply to the requirements you will have at the school you will transfer to, and take the ones you couldn't get at the community college at the 4 year college--maybe pick up an alternate certification in some other area, maybe one that could provide a job.  Many courses are really not sequential, e.g. you don't need to take English literature before American literature.  Realize that you don't need to "graduate" from a 2 year college; you need credit to transfer.  The 4 year college could not possibly care less whether you met a 2 year school's graduation requirements.  The other possibility, of course, is to throw your hands up and say "I couldn't get what I needed so I took a lighter load, and it's going to take me another year, and I won't have anything to show for the other year--except bills."
5.  Want an easy life with all the stuff your wealthier friends have?  Choice:  Do without some of those things and have only what you can afford or cause your parents to, literally, work themselves to the bone so you can "live as everyone else does."  Alternatively, get a job and purchase those things yourself.
6.  Can't get a job that makes you feel fully valued?  Choice:  keep looking and eating Ramen noodles until you find the perfect job or take the job you can get and keep looking in your spare time or keep bleeding your parents.

Until she HAS to make some of those choices for herself instead of you and your husband just assuming that "bleeding the parents" is what should happen, she will just continue to accept whatever she gets--and yes, she's likely to feel resentment when you point out to her that she does have the power to make choices, and that in each case, there are built-in penalties for each choice:  each one has disadvantages but that's the way life is.


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## ada903 (Jun 11, 2012)

Pat, I fully agree with you.  I need to work with my DH to make him see this.  He thinks we should keep paying the bills until she gets a job. I think we need to cut down on how many bills we pay so she can be motivated to get a job.


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## Wonka (Jun 11, 2012)

I don't remember whether your stepdaughter is a freshman, etc....But, I'm curious why a Community College closer to home wasn't an option?  It would hae seemed to be a sensible solution for at least the first two years of college.  Or, many areas have several campuses.  Of course, the social interaction isn't great but if money is a problem, it is a way to obtain a college degree at a much lower cost.


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## ada903 (Jun 11, 2012)

She transferred to state school for fall 2012 after three years in a community college.  There was no other community college closer - when she started 3 years ago, they were living inland by Temecula.


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## siesta (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Pat, I fully agree with you.  I need to work with my DH to make him see this.  He thinks we should keep paying the bills until she gets a job. I think we need to cut down on how many bills we pay so she can be motivated to get a job.


be careful, you are soon to be treading on thin ice. You seem very close to being perceived as the evil and selfish step-mom who just wants to cut expenses from someone that isnt your blood. The idea that, if it was your actual kid you may likely feel differently, will arise and put all of you in an awkward position next time she visits.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Siesta, for the past eight years I have been doing more for her than her own father.  I have earned my right to put the foot in the door, especially that it is for the right reasons.  I am willing to take that risk, and I think that when people truly love you, they will understand.


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## Elan (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Siesta, for the past eight years I have been doing more for her than her own father.  I have earned my right to put the foot in the door, especially that it is for the right reasons.  I am willing to take that risk, and I think that when people truly love you, they will understand.



  FWIW, I agree with you.  What you're attempting to do is for her long term benefit.  Who really cares what she thinks right now.


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## Chrisky (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Pat, I fully agree with you.  I need to work with my DH to make him see this.  He thinks we should keep paying the bills until she gets a job. I think we need to cut down on how many bills we pay so she can be motivated to get a job.



I think your DH needs to read this thread to see how very wrong he is and what his actions are doing to his daughter.  He may be trying to make it up to her because of his divorce or perhaps this stems from his situation when he was young and struggling and now he doesn't want his daughter to struggle.  Good luck with trying to convince him.  So you are the one who will have to use the 'tough love' card and just refuse to contribute any more money, and just be up front with his daughter and say 'sorry, we just can't afford it, you'll have to get a part time job if you want -------'.


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## geekette (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> Siesta, for the past eight years I have been doing more for her than her own father.  I have earned my right to put the foot in the door, especially that it is for the right reasons.  I am willing to take that risk, and I think that when people truly love you, they will understand.



Willing to take that risk indicates to me that you CARE, it's not just money, it's about the girl becoming an adult while Pop seems to want to keep her dependent.

The long term benefits to her are large, even if neither of them can see it yet.  College students are generally poor, absolutely not buying sunglasses that cost hundreds of dollars.  She is missing out on the true college experience!

The struggle builds character.  That might be something for you to discuss with hubs.  He may see that in you and himself and agree that she needs that.  It's time.  

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it is unthinkable that you both work 2 jobs in order that she does not have to.  He should see the flaw in that.  She CAN work, she SHOULD work.  I just don't see the benefit in having no job until after college.  The time to find out what it's like to have a boss is NOW.


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## Tia (Jun 12, 2012)

Chrisky said:


> ...He may be trying to make it up to her because of his divorce or perhaps this stems from his situation when he was young and struggling and now he doesn't want his daughter to struggle.  Good luck with trying to convince him. ....



Along that line of thinking have had my other half unable to see why a change in approach in dealing with our kids  was needed . Used a counselor at one point and it really helped, though you need the right one. Another situation  I know of has a spouse who is refusing to back his wife with their teenager son who is acting dangerously in the home, they have seen professionals, the law is now involved.


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## siesta (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> I am willing to take that risk, and I think that when people truly love you, they will understand.


 Indeed, and I hope you understand that I was merely pointing out that risk and not passing judgement in any way.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Siesta, yes, we are on the same page.  DH is very mature, I have faith we will work it out.


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## Kal (Jun 12, 2012)

Fast forward to "...when she gets a job".

What will be the criteria for getting a job?  Given the job climate today, it could be highly unlikely she will get the job of her dreams.  It could very well pay minimum wage.  And will she accept a job if it's not perfect?

There are lots of scenarios where this whole financial support could be endless.  Just getting thru school is only Act 1 of this drama.


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## geekette (Jun 12, 2012)

beggars can't be choosers.  if burger doodle is hiring but Luxury Job Shop isn't, she'll need to doodle up.  

I've had a lot of jobs in my life I wouldn't have taken if I'd had better options, but when there is no work history whatsoever or few jobs around, one needs to take what's offered.  

Dream jobs generally don't show up the first time out of the gate.  I'd hate to actually count, but let's say it was 20-30 jobs before I got A Dream Job.  I'm more than double her age, so holding out for That One Great Job is not something I would go along with if I were the one supporting her.  I'd withdraw support and send a case of ramen noodles with a list of local employment agencies or job fairs.

She's going to need to learn how to job search, which many of us learned in our early teens.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

That's exactly where DH and I disagree.  He doesn't want to reduce the support now, he wants to wait until she has a job.  And I am saying we need to act now so she has a reason to try hard enough to get a job.

That's what we need to work on.


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## IngridN (Jun 12, 2012)

I have been following this thread and would like to put in my 2 cents from the perspective of a hiring manager. I managed and HIRED full time, part time and student positions before I retired last fall. 

Let me tell you that my top criteria was work experience, paid or unpaid, preferably relevant, including for the student position. The applications w/o experience were not even considered. Something for her and your DH to think about. Another red flag for a hiring manager would be the length of time to complete college given she wasn't working. Before I spent the time to invest in a new hire, I at least wanted to be sure s/he was mature enough to handle a job.

Ingrid


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Great point Ingrid!


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## SOS8260456 (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> That's exactly where DH and I disagree.  He doesn't want to reduce the support now, he wants to wait until she has a job.  And I am saying we need to act now so she has a reason to try hard enough to get a job.
> 
> That's what we need to work on.



I haven't read through the whole entire thread, but I really feel for you.  It is tough when both parents aren't on the same side of an issue.  I don't think I saw any mention on her status as a student.  Is she a good student where things come easy to her or does she struggle?

My daughter is starting college in the fall and she has learning disabilities.  I specifically asked her not to work at least her first year so she can focus on just studying.  She gets good grades but she has to struggle for them.  Since I have asked her not to work, I feel more responsible for her expenses.  But of course her basic needs will be met through dorming and a meal plan.  I also agree with the person who said to give gift cards for specific stuff.  Gift cards can be a pain, but at least you know that your money is going where you want it to.  Although, it can lead to gift card selling to friends.  I have been accosted one or two times in my life at the food store by people trying to sell their food stamps for cash.  I will also try to make sure that I keep her stocked in health and beauty items.  Basically I plan on trying to meet her basic needs with a small allowance that she can use.

The cell phone is a tricky one.  Because it is more expensive for her to maintain her own plan plus I always want my children to have access to me through their phone.  I worry that she won't pay her bill, etc.

But, I don't plan on working myself to the bone to keep her either.  I can't believe that your husband expects you to do so.  What are his reasons for wanting to continue support until she gets a job?  But, this is also more than support.  My husband and I come from two different backgrounds.  I did college through loans and then transferred home after two years when a summer job turned into a full time when with them paying so many college credits a semester.  I took a bus 30 minutes to work each day until I could afford my own car at about age 20 or 21.  My husband didn't have to pay any bills until after he moved out of his parent's house and married me.  I mean he paid for going out and gas for his car, but no room or board, car payment, college, etc.

It is interesting reading where you have ended up as we are at the start of our children's journey.  We also have a son who will be in college the following year and I keep warning my husband about establishing precedents.

Good luck with getting to a resolution that you ALL can live with!  Sending lots of hugs your way.  It is so tough finding the right solutions plus you are dealing with being the step parent.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Lisa, thank you for sharing.  I took the bus until I was almost 30, throughout undergrad and grad school, including to go to Walmart for groceries. 

She has a 3.6 GPA for her college coursework - not bad but I expected more for nursing, which is a really competitive field.


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## geekette (Jun 12, 2012)

ada903 said:


> That's exactly where DH and I disagree.  He doesn't want to reduce the support now, he wants to wait until she has a job.  And I am saying we need to act now so she has a reason to try hard enough to get a job.
> 
> That's what we need to work on.



I agree, she has no motivation whatsoever to become employed.  It's Summer Vacation!   What does she tell hiring managers she did with her summers?  "Hung out"???  Bad Answer.  This is something he also needs to understand, what Ingrid contributed, that lack of work history can be a quick disqualifier.  She is an adult now, days of carefree responsibility-less summers are over.   

Your husband sounds like a dear sweet man who needs to understand that making it easier for her now will make her introduction to reality that much harder when there is more at stake.

You have clearly been giving her too much money, she has not had to do without anything (in fact, she's living it up!) and she needs to start understandign the difference between needs and wants NOW.  This is very late to be learning it and hopefully she won't be a financial disaster when on her own.  Bailing her out in the next couple years is not at all the same as when her wants get bigger (house payment falling to cosigner in your future?) and she needs the opportunity to learn how to save, as well.  

I don't think he understands that these are life skills that she needs and has not developed.  Giving her everything prevents her learning how to get it herself.  Worse, she may marry the first guy with a good job so he can give her everything when you two quit doing it if she doesn't know how to stand on her own two feet.

This is beyond enablement, it's preventing her growth into a responsible adult.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Very well said!  I will have DH continue on reading this thread.  We are basically doing her evil, not good.  



geekette said:


> I agree, she has no motivation whatsoever to become employed.  It's Summer Vacation!   What does she tell hiring managers she did with her summers?  "Hung out"???  Bad Answer.  This is something he also needs to understand, what Ingrid contributed, that lack of work history can be a quick disqualifier.  She is an adult now, days of carefree responsibility-less summers are over.
> 
> Your husband sounds like a dear sweet man who needs to understand that making it easier for her now will make her introduction to reality that much harder when there is more at stake.
> 
> ...


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## glypnirsgirl (Jun 12, 2012)

i feel for you! This is such a precarious position for you. You want what is best for your daughter and what is best for her is the hardest for you emotionally --- and hard for her, too, until she understands.

My 24 year old bonus son lives at home with us after graduating with a degree in film --- with honors. He works about 30 hours per week at Walmart and is still adjusting to work. He gets mad when they want him to do hard physical work like the garden department or unloading the trucks. He seems to believe that he is entitled to work in the toy department --- where he is knowledgeable and diligent. He came home from work complaining and told us that he was going to chew out the manager for letting HIS toy department get in a mess while he was having to unload. I reminded him if he loses his job he is out on his own. 

I don't think a 24 year old should be living at home. I wanted 6 months after graduation and then out. His dad wanted him at home as long as he was working. We require that he saves half of his paycheck and the savings can only be used for unusually high and necessary expenses - a brake job on the truck that we provide, expensive dental work are the only two things that he has been allowed to spend his savings on. Every week he saves half, covers his lunches and gas, and then spends the rest on crap --- mainly toys  --- makes no sense to me why a 24 year old would want to spend money on toys. 

We provide room, board, truck, insurance (both car and health). Everything else he covers. And it is still driving me crazy. 

And a lot of the differences between my husband and I stem from the differences in our backgrounds. I paid my way through college (after working from the age of 12 and being required to save half of my money) without loans. I worked full time and took more than a full load.I made excellent grades and paid my way. I was through undergraduate in 3 years and through law school in 2 and 1/2 --- that is the difference in paying your own way.

In the same 5.5 years, John finished his undergraduate without working. Go figure --- of course he would rather live at home. 

Of course your daughter would rather not make sacrifices. in the short term, it is easier. In the long term, it is much worse for her than it is for you. She will never develop the skills, ethics and motivation to be successful. Ultimately it is her loss.

Good luck to all of you.

elaine


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

Elaine, you guys are very generous and supportive! 

I can only imagine how competitive the labor market is these days.  Experience and showing that you worked during school is so important!


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## JanT (Jun 12, 2012)

Elaine,

Our daughter is an assistant store manager at an extremely busy Super Walmart.  If you want, you can tell your bonus son that even as an assistant store manager there are times that she has to get in and sling freight.  It's the nature of the job.  She doesn't like it but realizes that it's just the way it is. 

I know alot of people are "down" on Walmart but they have been very good to her.  When she was in college they adjusted her hours to whatever fit her schedule.  And I'm convinced they did that because *she* was very good to them.  She worked hard, didn't complain, was competent, and very reliable.  In 12 years of employment with them, she has called out sick only three times.  One of those is when she was gravely ill last year and almost died.  I had to call her out sick.  She had so much sick leave banked that she didn't miss a day of income and actually had two weeks of vacation time that she had to use or lose by her end of year date.  

I thank God every day she was employed with them.  She has excellent health benefits and I know that is one of the reasons she is alive today.  If she hadn't have had such good benefits the hospital wouldn't have gone to the length they did to save her.  Her final bill for her hospital stay alone?  $237,000 dollars!!!!  That didn't count many of the specialists that treated her.  What she paid out-of-pocket?  $4,000 total.  

Tell your son that there is a ton of opportunity with Walmart.  Even with his film degree.  Their corporate office does training videos, etc.  That could be right up his alley.  A degree in film (with honors yet!!!) means he has a good idea for detail, asthetics (very important in store product staging), etc.  He has an excellent opportunity to move up in the company and make very good money.  Store managers earn six figures - not a bad income in today's environment.

Anyway, didn't mean to get off on that rant.  I really just wanted to tell you to tell him that even managers have to sling freight from time-to-time.    

Jan



glypnirsgirl said:


> My 24 year old bonus son lives at home with us after graduating with a degree in film --- with honors. He works about 30 hours per week at Walmart and is still adjusting to work. He gets mad when they want him to do hard physical work like the garden department or unloading the trucks. He seems to believe that he is entitled to work in the toy department --- where he is knowledgeable and diligent. He came home from work complaining and told us that he was going to chew out the manager for letting HIS toy department get in a mess while he was having to unload.


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## pjrose (Jun 12, 2012)

IngridN said:


> I have been following this thread and would like to put in my 2 cents from the perspective of a hiring manager. . . .
> Let me tell you that* my top criteria was work experience, paid or unpaid,* preferably relevant, including for the student position. . . .



Which is exactly why she needs to get out there and get a volunteer position - or more than one - if she can't get a paid job.  Heck, a volunteer position AND a paid job would be better, since her paid job flipping burgers or cleaning motel rooms isn't likely to have direct relevance to her field.  

Hospitals are delighted to have volunteers, and she might get a position in the PT department.  Maybe it'd be cleaning up and fetching towels, but so what!  And then there's Special Olympics, and countless of other possibilities.  

A compromise with DH could be that we'll continue to help with support but she must be DOING SOMETHING - volunteer or paid - as well as school.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

This past semester she took an internship in a physical therapy office, unpaid. That is necessary for the resume and even required for admission to many programs in the field.  But the value of a paid job is irreplaceable -
it teaches you the value of money and how to manage it.


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## ScubaKat (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks for sharing this!  I have found this thread very interesting and educational...  I was in a similar situation but on the other end..  my parents paid for everything when I was in college.. I lived on-campus had the meal plan and still convinced them to buy me a car... they put $5k in my bank account the first semester in case of emergencies and I called them two months into the semester telling them the money was gone and I had no money for laundry... I was also 15 when I started undergrad though and had no concept of money what so ever...  never had a job and everything I wanted was provided for when I was at home..  My dad believed in not having his kids worry about money while in school...  I never thought I was "working" my parents or "living it up"...  I was just totally clueless in how money worked... I totally agree it is about the value of money and how to manage it.

I had a lot of growing up to do... am totally grateful that I came out of college without loans at 19..  found a great job (I did always have internships lined up for summers in my field)... bought my first house at 22... put myself through grad school while working full time and have never stopped working since..  DH on the other hand went to a super exclusive private school.. worked 3 part time jobs and still came out with a huge student loan...   

I would love to provide for our daughter as my parents had provided for me but I am not sure it would be realistic with tuition rates in 15 years since she is 3 right now..  we did start a college savings plan for her since she was born so at least we would be able to help her some... DH and I will have to talk about how we are planning on bringing our kids up and this has definitely planted some ideas for discussion.    



ada903 said:


> This past semester she took an internship in a physical therapy office, unpaid. That is necessary for the resume and even required for admission to many programs in the field.  But the value of a paid job is irreplaceable -
> it teaches you the value of money and how to manage it.


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## ada903 (Jun 12, 2012)

I am glad you mentioned that, coming from the other side of the fence. She is a good, Christian kid with a big heart, she just doesn't know to value money and hard work, and it is obviously to a large extent our fault.  But it's better to start later than never, to everyone's good.



ScubaKat said:


> Thanks for sharing this!  I have found this thread very interesting and educational...  I was in a similar situation but on the other end..  my parents paid for everything when I was in college.. I lived on-campus had the meal plan and still convinced them to buy me a car... they put $5k in my bank account the first semester in case of emergencies and I called them two months into the semester telling them the money was gone and I had no money for laundry... I was also 15 when I started undergrad though and had no concept of money what so ever...  never had a job and everything I wanted was provided for when I was at home..  My dad believed in not having his kids worry about money while in school...  I never thought I was "working" my parents or "living it up"...  I was just totally clueless in how money worked... I totally agree it is about the value of money and how to manage it.
> 
> I had a lot of growing up to do... am totally grateful that I came out of college without loans at 19..  found a great job (I did always have internships lined up for summers in my field)... bought my first house at 22... put myself through grad school while working full time and have never stopped working since..  DH on the other hand went to a super exclusive private school.. worked 3 part time jobs and still came out with a huge student loan...
> 
> I would love to provide for our daughter as my parents had provided for me but I am not sure it would be realistic with tuition rates in 15 years since she is 3 right now..  we did start a college savings plan for her since she was born so at least we would be able to help her some... DH and I will have to talk about how we are planning on bringing our kids up and this has definitely planted some ideas for discussion.


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