# Any Guess



## ronparise (Sep 19, 2022)

Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier, and is the stated mf ($5/1000) close









						Club Wyndham Oceanside Pier-- 1,000,000 Points  | eBay
					

Wyndham Points can be used at any Wyndham location! Club Wyndham Oceanside Pier. 1,000,000 Club Wyndham Points, Allocated January 1st of every year. WYNDHAM WILL TAKE SEVERAL WEEKS TO COMPLETE THEIR END OF THE TRANSFER.



					www.ebay.com


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## paxsarah (Sep 19, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier, and is the stared mf ($5/1000) close
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to the MF spreadsheet, the MF is $5.05 so that part's legit. I'm not a good judge of value/cost, though.

This reminds me that I had a conversation with someone in a FB group a week or two ago who was looking at (not sure if he was the winner of) a Midtown 45 contract with an abnormally low listed MF. It had to have been either a mistake or a biennial - but he DM'ed me the estoppel and Wyndham listed it as annual. It had to be wrong given the history of MFs there, but someone paid a *lot* for it. Way too much.


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## bnoble (Sep 19, 2022)

I don't know whether or not ARP is important in the summer there. It might be for oceanfront, etc. I've booked there, and availability was fine, but I was not looking during summer.

I can't value it; I'd just be guessing. I saw Bonnet Creek clear about $10/K all-in for 300K in an open auction as a reference point when I was looking earlier today. Bonnet benefits from better name recognition, and the smaller contract is easier to sell, but it has higher fees (about $6.60 before program fee). Do with that what you will.


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## WManning (Sep 19, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier, and is the stared mf ($5/1000) close
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  All kidding aside I feel the larger the contract the less its worth. Its easy to find someone to take a 154,000 point ownership for free if maintenance fees are less then $85 per month. To find someone willing to pay $2/1000 for resale points and pay $500 a month in maintenance fees will be tougher. Especially now that resale points have less value to VIP owners. Looks like a shill bidder helped run price up also.


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## ronparise (Sep 19, 2022)

WManning said:


> I hear beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  All kidding aside I feel the larger the contract the less its worth. Its easy to find someone to take a 154,000 point ownership for free if maintenance fees are less then $85 per month. To find s.omeone willing to pay $2/1000 for resale points and pay $500 a month in maintenance fees will be tougher. Especially now that resale points have less value to VIP owners. Looks like a shill bidder helped run price up also.





a million point contract is no doubt a big contract, but a million point account, not so much. Maybe for a family where dad and mom get a week or two or three a year to vacation. But folks my age, especially with money, often travel for several months every year

 the bidding is up to $3000 now. Shills dont bother me. I will come to a price Im willing to pay, make my bid and forget it


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## markb53 (Sep 20, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I don't know whether or not ARP is important in the summer there. It might be for oceanfront, etc. I've booked there, and availability was fine, but I was not looking during summer.



From mid June to mid August you would usually need ARP and book past the 10 month point to get much of anything. Other than those 60 day it not difficult to book unless you want a 4BR presidential for 600,000 points for a week.


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## scootr5 (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I will come to a price Im willing to pay, make my bid and forget it



Wyndham will allow you to own contracts again?


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## Roger830 (Sep 20, 2022)

WManning said:


> I hear beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  All kidding aside I feel the larger the contract the less its worth. Its easy to find someone to take a 154,000 point ownership for free if maintenance fees are less then $85 per month. To find someone willing to pay $2/1000 for resale points and pay $500 a month in maintenance fees will be tougher. Especially now that resale points have less value to VIP owners. Looks like a *shill bidde*r helped run price up also.



I don't know how you can tell that there is a shill bidder. Some bidders think ebay functions like a Friday night auction and constantly bid until their limit is reached.

$3000 is cheap if someone wants arp in prime season.

I bought 2 out of 5 contracts on ebay from that seller and was very pleased with both deals. Modest price and fast efficient transfer. The last one I won in October and it closed with Wyndham in December with the current year's points in my account even though the points weren't to be available until the following year.


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## WManning (Sep 20, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> I don't know how you can tell that there is a shill bidder. Some bidders think ebay functions like a Friday night auction and constantly bid until their limit is reached.
> 
> $3000 is cheap if someone wants arp in prime season.
> 
> I bought 2 out of 5 contracts on ebay from that seller and was very pleased with both deals. Modest price and fast efficient transfer. The last one I won in October and it closed with Wyndham in December with the current year's points in my account even though the points weren't to be available until the following year.


0 feedback is the tell. You ever notice how many are relisted?


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## Roger830 (Sep 20, 2022)

WManning said:


> 0 feedback is the tell. You ever notice how many are relisted?



0 feedback tells me that the bidder is new at the game.

I bought my first contract from this seller about 6 years ago and my second last year. I've never noticed any phony sales with relisting. They just want to move the inventory.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> According to the MF spreadsheet, the MF is $5.05 so that part's legit.




Thanks for checking the mf for me.. I didnt realize that there was a spreadsheet like this..


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

WManning said:


> 0 feedback is the tell. You ever notice how many are relisted?



If zero feedback is the tell, what does zero feed back tell you?

the fact is that this seller has sold over 490 items and has gotten feed back over half the time


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## bnoble (Sep 20, 2022)

I think the more important observation is this:



ronparise said:


> Shills dont bother me. I will come to a price Im willing to pay, make my bid and forget it



Who cares if there are shills or not? Pick a price you're happy with and bid it. If you get it, you are happy because you got it for a price you were willing to pay. If you don't you are also happy because you didn't overpay for something. And, if it gets relisted, you get another bite at the apple. Fine.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> I don't know how you can tell that there is a shill bidder. Some bidders think ebay functions like a Friday night auction and constantly bid until their limit is reached.
> 
> $3000 is cheap if someone wants arp in prime season.
> 
> I bought 2 out of 5 contracts on ebay from that seller and was very pleased with both deals. Modest price and fast efficient transfer. The last one I won in October and it closed with Wyndham in December with the current year's points in my account even though the points weren't to be available until the following year.


arp wont be important to me. So the only factor that is important is mf. Looking at that spreadsheet I’d say $5/1000 is below average and worth paying for. The question is of course, how much.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> Wyndham will allow you to own contracts again?


That I don’t know ….yet. What I do know is I can’t rent
I was told that my wife could own but just like my first foray into timeshares she doesn’t know what I’m thinking yet

I planning to sell my house and move across the country to be close to my kid. I don’t need it yet but I’ll be been reminding her about how I changed her diapers 50 years ago and how she owes me.

 I think a timeshare for a month or two. Between homes will. E better and cheaper than a hotel

I was going to bid on a small contract to see what happens, but then this million points comes up which is the size and mf I’ll be looking for came up and it got my curiosity aroused. I doubt that I’ll get
I think it will go over $5k and that’s more than I want to pay at this point.


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## bnoble (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I think a timeshare for a month or two. Between homes will. E better and cheaper than a hotel


If this is a one-off, maybe a month-to-month rental (AirBnB or other) might work?


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## WManning (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> That I don’t know ….yet. What I do know is I can’t rent
> I was told that my wife could own but just like my first foray into timeshares she doesn’t know what I’m thinking yet
> 
> I planning to sell my house and move across the country to be close to my kid. I don’t need it yet but I’ll be been reminding her about how I changed her diapers 50 years ago and how she owes me.
> ...


If your going out west Worldmark has more resorts and is a better value IMO then Wyndham.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

WManning said:


> If your going out west Worldmark has more resorts and is a better value IMO then Wyndham.




I know about worldmark,  and Im real close to getting a worldmark contract too. 

I dont agree that worldmark is the better value. I know things are different than when I owned and they have been improving things at worldmark resorts but Id still bet that the worldmark resorts typically dont measure up to Wyndham.  But even if they do. The best price most folks can get on world mark is about 25 cents a credit.  

With world mark the more you own, the better the mf. .. So in the interest of comparing apples and apples...
a 50.000 credit worldmark contract would cost about $12,500. mf at 8 cents a credit  ($4000/yr) and that would get you 5 weeks at one of their legacy resorts each year

Ill use one of your 154000 point wyndham contracts that would cost nothing with mf of $85/mo  Five of these would get you 5 weeks at one of Wyndhams legacy resorts .....so 770000 points,  $0 purchase price and mf of $5000

Using  10 year amortization.  the cost is about the same


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I dont agree that worldmark is the better value.


It definitely “depends” on the exact circumstances.  Take the 1M points Oceanside Pier as an example for someone who might want to spend 5 summer weeks at that resort.

The million points plus the rental of 15,000 points from Wyndham gets 5 weeks in a 1 Bedroom Deluxe at 203,000 points/week.  Using just the annual maintenance fee of $5690 is $1,138/week for the summer or $884/week for 5.7 weeks in the few “off-season” weeks, which oddly includes Christmas and New Years.

WorldMark at the same resort is Prime season all year – 8,000 credits/week or 40,000 credits for 5 weeks in a 1 Bedroom (no Deluxe option ).

A WorldMark member does not need to own the full 40,000 credits outright.  Own 20,000 credits and rent up to 40,000 credits from other members, which can easily be had for $0.08/credit.

Maintenance fee on 20,000 credits is $1,750 +$1,600 for the 20k rented credits = $3,350 or $670/week.

There is an eBay auction for 20k WorldMark credits from a reputable seller that will sell (or not) in a few hours for likely under $4,000 (it did not attract any bidders the first time around).

It seems generally agreed the 1M Oceanside Pier in post #1 will sell for at least $4,000.  So the purchase price is a wash between the two eBay auctions.

Prime season at $670/week in WorldMark versus $1,138/week with Club Wyndham at the same destination (there is less than a mile separating the two resorts)?  If it were me wanting to vacation at Oceanside Pier San Diego, the better value would be obvious.


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## geerlijd (Sep 20, 2022)

WM Oceanside and Club Wyndham Oceanside Pier are two separate resorts, with Club Wyndham in a better location, so it's not exactly apples to apples comparison. I would expect most guests are willing to pay more for Club Wyndham's location.


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

geerlijd said:


> WM Oceanside and Club Wyndham Oceanside Pier are two separate resorts, with Club Wyndham in a better location, so it's not exactly apples to apples comparison. I would expect most guests are willing to pay more for Club Wyndham's location.



I am definitely not one of those who would pay an extra $470/week to stay at Club Wyndham.


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## WManning (Sep 20, 2022)

CO skier said:


> It definitely “depends” on the exact circumstances.  Take the 1M points Oceanside Pier as an example for someone who might want to spend 5 summer weeks at that resort.
> 
> The million points plus the rental of 15,000 points from Wyndham gets 5 weeks in a 1 Bedroom Deluxe at 203,000 points/week.  Using just the annual maintenance fee of $5690 is $1,138/week for the summer or $884/week for 5.7 weeks in the few “off-season” weeks, which oddly includes Christmas and New Years.
> 
> ...


Not to mention bonus time and the other cash options which costs less then paying maintenance fees. No house keeping credits or hk fees to worry about either when booking BT, IS or MM


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I am definitely not one of those who would pay an extra $470/week to stay at Club Wyndham.



No me neither,  . I own a Ford and a Honda, not a Lincoln and an Acura but lots of Lincolns and Acuras are sold every year... Someone sees value there, 

Thats why I tried to compare apples to apples  ie Wyndham legacy resorts to Worldmarks   154000 point weeks to 10000 credit weeks.  sometimes they are identical units   When it comes to money, it seems to me that Wyndhan is generally cheaper to buy, and worldmark is cheaper to own, 




WManning said:


> Not to mention bonus time and the other cash options which costs less then paying maintenance fees. No house keeping credits or hk fees to worry about either when booking BT, IS or MM




Which is my point, exactly, Worldmark is cheaper to own


The bigger question is where do you want to spend your vacation time.  When I want to visit my family in Maryland, lobby Congress, or attend an alumni ecent at my high school there is no choice, I gotta  buy  Wyndham, or sleep on my brothers couch 

When I disagreed with your assessment that worldmark offers the better value, I didnt mean to say that Wyndham offered the better value.  What I should have don is parrott yo and say value is in the eye of the beholder


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

CO skier said:


> It definitely “depends” on the exact circumstances.  Take the 1M points Oceanside Pier as an example for someone who might want to spend 5 summer weeks at that resort.
> 
> The million points plus the rental of 15,000 points from Wyndham gets 5 weeks in a 1 Bedroom Deluxe at 203,000 points/week.  Using just the annual maintenance fee of $5690 is $1,138/week for the summer or $884/week for 5.7 weeks in the few “off-season” weeks, which oddly includes Christmas and New Years.
> 
> ...




That ability to rent in credits is a great feature,  in this case  20000 can equal 60000 and in the years you dont need to rent in those additional credits, you dont have to pay for them

If we are talking about the same auction,  I know the seller. he is indeed, reputable.  But you need to read his full ad,   Beyond the winning bid an additional $2500 is due at closing  so your initial investment will be closer to $6500... Same value it will just cost more


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> If we are talking about the same auction,  I know the seller. he is indeed, reputable.  But you need to read his full ad,   Beyond the winning bid an additional $2500 is due at closing  so your initial investment will be closer to $6500... Same value it will just cost more


The auction I looked at sold for less than $4,000 -- $3,595.  









						WORLDMARK BY WYNDHAM, 20,000, ANNUAL, CREDITS, TIMESHARE  | eBay
					

This is a Worldmark policy, not ours. WorldMark by Wyndham. WorldMark also allows traveling owners with families the extra space and privacy, while avoiding the expense, worry, and inconvenience of having to split up the family into two or more rooms.



					www.ebay.com
				




Add in $199 closing and $299 transfer fee = $4,093.  The buyer is paying $1,195 for 20k credits valued at either $1,745.40 (the current maintenance fees on 20k) or $1,600 (the $0.08/credit rental rate) -- a savings of $405 or $550.  $4,093 - $405 = $3,688 actual purchase price.  The other $727.25 is a prepayment of the Sept. - Jan. maintenance fees.  The new owner will get the use of the credits associated with those maintenance fees, so it is no different than if they became an owner the moment the auction ended (which they did, it will just take a few months for the owner to gain access to the WorldMark system).  All the "additional" costs did was save the new owner from having to rent-in 20k credits to book their 5 weeks at WorldMark Oceanside or wherever they want in the WorldMark system the moment the transfer is officially completed.


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier,


Based on my comparison to what can be purchased and booked through WorldMark at Oceanside, CA, the value of this auction is a negative number that would become more and more negative the higher the bid price increases and the longer the contract is owned.


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> No me neither,  . I own a Ford and a Honda, not a Lincoln and an Acura but lots of Lincolns and Acuras are sold every year... Someone sees value there,


A LOT of timeshares are sold at Developer prices.  I guess the customers see some value there.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2022)

CO skier said:


> The auction I looked at sold for less than $4,000 -- $3,595.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know how it works


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## CO skier (Sep 20, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I know how it works


Of course.  Did you click on the link for the details of the eBay auction, which is the intent of the link? Or did you just read the embedded and irrelevant TUG summary of the link in the post?


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## ronparise (Sep 21, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Of course.  Did you click on the link for the details of the eBay auction, which is the intent of the link? Or did you just read the embedded and irrelevant TUG summary of the link in the post?



I didn’t have to click on the link. I was already following the bidding

as I’ve said I know the seller and I know how he works. Ind I’m trying to get an idea of todays market. It’s seems about 20 cents for a stripped contract. Then like with this offering  add something for unused  points for which mf has been paid. What I said in an earlier post  is that the initial investment is more than it would.be if the last years points  were not included, but the value is the same


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 21, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I don't know whether or not ARP is important in the summer there. It might be for oceanfront, etc. I've booked there, and availability was fine, but I was not looking during summer.
> 
> I can't value it; I'd just be guessing. I saw Bonnet Creek clear about $10/K all-in for 300K in an open auction as a reference point when I was looking earlier today. Bonnet benefits from better name recognition, and the smaller contract is easier to sell, but it has higher fees (about $6.60 before program fee). Do with that what you will.


Wow!  Name recognition is definitely making that worth more.  

I have some giveaway weeks at $6.94 per 1,000 in Arkansas, and I thought those fees were outrageous.  Those include the program fee, so not as high as Bonnet Creek.  But it is Bonnet Creek.  ARP doesn't seem like it would be all that important for BC, but I never look that far out.  I am more about within 60 days and the discounts, which have not been all that tough to get, if I watch a few times a day.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 21, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier, and is the stated mf ($5/1000) close
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would bet it will go for $10-15,000.

I recently bid on a property I could usually get for less than $300 with this year's use included.  I bid $1,850 thinking no one would bid higher.  It went for $1,875.  Shocking.  Now I am thinking I could make big bucks selling all of my units at that resort, if people are willing to pay that much.  $1,500 each would allow me to buy stuff I really want to own.


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## ronparise (Sep 22, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I would bet it will go for $10-15,000.
> 
> I recently bid on a property I could usually get for less than $300 with this year's use included.  I bid $1,850 thinking no one would bid higher.  It went for $1,875.  Shocking.  Now I am thinking I could make big bucks selling all of my units at that resort, if people are willing to pay that much.  $1,500 each would allow me to buy stuff I really want to own.


Well Cindy, it went for more than I was willing to pay and less than you thought it would 

$7101


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 22, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Well Cindy, it went for more than I was willing to pay and less than you thought it would
> 
> $7101


Right!  I just saw the end of the auction.  It's not a bad deal for low MF's.  

Wyndham's pretty much shot themselves in the foot for resale value, in my opinion.  If a Sheraton Broadway Plantation was worthy of $1,875 in an auction, this one should have gone for a lot more.  It's actually pretty valuable and for that reason, I don't really want to get rid of our Bali Hai points because even without discounts, the points are valuble to us.  The founder's discount is incredible, when you can get something with it, which is most of the time.


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## WManning (Sep 22, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Well Cindy, it went for more than I was willing to pay and less than you thought it would
> 
> $7101





ronparise said:


> Well Cindy, it went for more than I was willing to pay and less than you thought it would
> 
> $7101


Winning bidder 51 feedback score. Notice the second bidder 1 feedback. I agree with other posters this seller has a stellar reputation and great feedback score and I am not saying seller did anything wrong but this is a typical shill bidder senerio running price up. I wouldn't be suprised if this is relisted. You would be suprised at how many auctions go to second chance offer when low feedback bidder wins.


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## ronparise (Sep 22, 2022)

WManning said:


> Winning bidder 51 feedback score. Notice the second bidder 1 feedback. I agree with other posters this seller has a stellar reputation and great feedback score and I am not saying seller did anything wrong but this is a typical shill bidder senerio running price up. I wouldn't be suprised if this is relisted. You would be suprised at how many auctions go to second chance offer when low feedback bidder wins.




But in this case it was the high feedback bidder that won


interestingly if neither of these two bidders were bidding, I would have won


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## WManning (Sep 22, 2022)

ronparise said:


> But in this case it was the high feedback bidder that won
> 
> 
> interestingly if neither of these two bidders were bidding, I would have won


You might get that second chance offer.


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## troy12n (Sep 22, 2022)

I'm venturing to guess that i'm not the only one not shocked that Ron doesn't see shill bidding and unscrupulous sellers as unethical... keep defending him and the behavior. 

Pretty much all of these listed in here were shill bid up. The comments that they are "reputable" sellers is just complete garbage. Reputable sellers don't need to shill bid their auctions up. And these auctions were clearly shill bid up. I have been watching ebay for months and even bid on a couple (for my own use...) but they always get shill bid up. 

Which leads me to ask if anyone has an October use year contracts you are looking to sell with halfway reasonable MF, in the 200-350k points range, message me, I might buy one. I would like more points but don't want my use year messed with.  Ebay isn't going to be a viable option because of the unscrupulous sellers shill bidding


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## comicbookman (Sep 23, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I'm venturing to guess that i'm not the only one not shocked that Ron doesn't see shill bidding and unscrupulous sellers as unethical... keep defending him and the behavior.
> 
> Pretty much all of these listed in here were shill bid up. The comments that they are "reputable" sellers is just complete garbage. Reputable sellers don't need to shill bid their auctions up. And these auctions were clearly shill bid up. I have been watching ebay for months and even bid on a couple (for my own use...) but they always get shill bid up.
> 
> Which leads me to ask if anyone has an October use year contracts you are looking to sell with halfway reasonable MF, in the 200-350k points range, message me, I might buy one. I would like more points but don't want my use year messed with.  Ebay isn't going to be a viable option because of the unscrupulous sellers shill bidding



How do you get "Ron doesn't see shill bidding and unscrupulous sellers as unethical" from his comments on this thread?


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## troy12n (Sep 23, 2022)

> Shills dont bother me. I will come to a price Im willing to pay, make my bid and forget it



That pretty much says it all... if he accepts shill bidding, he is accepting of unscrupulous sellers and unethical behavior... which is par for the course with this shrewd individual.


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## comicbookman (Sep 23, 2022)

troy12n said:


> That pretty much says it all... if he accepts shill bidding, he is accepting of unscrupulous sellers and unethical behavior... which is par for the course with this shrewd individual.


Maybe I missed it, but I don't think he said he accepts shill bidding.  He said he knew the sellers methods previously, I took that to mean the seller was previously ethical.  Also, nearly 1000 comments and you're not a member of TUG?


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## ronparise (Sep 23, 2022)

WManning said:


> You might get that second chance offer.



Actually my _shill bid_ (I mean snipe) wasnt placed because the bidding had already passed me by


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## Roger830 (Sep 23, 2022)

Because there wasn't shill bidding, the winner got a good deal. He could have done better with esnipe. I set mine at 3 seconds when I won my last contract. I watched the bidding countdown live and saw my bid go in at exactly 3 seconds before the close,


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## troy12n (Sep 23, 2022)

You guys can read the posts, don't play dumb. I literally quoted him. He says shills don't bother him. I don't know how more clearly he can be. This comment basically means he supports unscrupulous sellers bidding on their own auctions, driving up the costs for the "average joe"... 

And great, a non-shill bidder may have won. But the winning bidder paid quite a bit more because the seller (shill bidder) bid it up... that doesn't bother you? 

Some of you I think need your moral compasses reset. Or replaced. 

But I digress... i'm just a guest. What do I know.


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## scootr5 (Sep 23, 2022)

troy12n said:


> This comment basically means he supports unscrupulous sellers bidding on their own auctions, driving up the costs for the "average joe"...
> 
> Some of you I think need your moral compasses reset. Or replaced.



Your opinion stated as fact does not make it so, nor does your judgement of others reflect well on you (casting the first stone and all).


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## ronparise (Sep 23, 2022)

troy12n said:


> That pretty much says it all... if he accepts shill bidding, he is accepting of unscrupulous sellers and unethical behavior... which is par for the course with this shrewd individual.



If I wasnt clear,

I dont know if the seller relies on shill bids to sell his timeshares, I know the guy. and I like him and he treated me fairly but I was a seller, not a buyer. . , He sold some stuff for me, and he didnt rely on shills to get the price he got for me.

Regarding shill bidding; Im not saying its right, What Im saying is that EBay is like the Wild West.  and inexperienced and naive  buyers are likely to get hurt or taken advantage of.  What Im saying is that shill bidding doesnt matter to me.   I know what Im willing to pay, I make my bid and then I watch. I know that without shills I may have been able to pay less but I dont care. I got what I wanted for what I was willing to pay.  

Folks that have been here as long as I have,  may remember other threads where I took that "dont care"  attitude. that so many seem to object to.   Im no longer the young idealist that I once was. protesting the Viet Nam War and protesting for Civil Rights. I realized way back then, that chanting "LBJ, LBJ how many kids did you kill today:  wasnt doing any good.  I was going to be drafted.  So I joined the National Guard.   I could serve, but I wouldnt get shot at.   Even back then  I took the world as i found  it and I did my best to make my way through it.  I did that as I built my little vacation rental "business" and I did the same thing when Wyndham came to close me down.. I didnt try to change anything      I adapted 

So today we are talking about "bad" things on EBay.  I dont care,,, Im not saying the bad things arent  happening,  Im  saying Im not the guy to change it.. But I will adapt.   Id rather pay a "buy it now price: or deal with minimums set by a seller. Auctions however are going to bring out the shills, I cant do anything about it, I want the product,  so I deal with it with snipping service...... I dont care if I pay more than I might have 

Sorry that offends you


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## ronparise (Sep 23, 2022)

troy12n said:


> And great, a non-shill bidder may have won. But the winning bidder paid quite a bit more because the seller (shill bidder) bid it up... that doesn't bother you?


  So it bothers you...what are you doing about it?
 How much EBay stock do you own, do you go to share holder meetings and talk about it there.. Thats where you could do some good  not bitching about me on TUG


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## troy12n (Sep 24, 2022)

> So it bothers you...what are you doing about it?



I have complained to ebay about it, i've reported sellers. 

Ebay doesn't, and wont do anything about it, because they make money on auction selling prices. They have a vested interest in all auctions ending with higher final sale prices. So no, nothing will ever be done about it. 

I've further more pretty much swore off using ebay. Which again, doesn't matter to them. Because their always suckers I guess who will use it. I will continue to advocate to others that ebay is a steaming pile of dung. 

The takeaway here is that Ron, and his ilk, are ok with people being ripped off, as long as it's not them. *Point taken*.


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## b2bailey (Sep 24, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> Wyndham will allow you to own contracts again?


I confess I was wondering the same.


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## ronparise (Sep 24, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I have complained to ebay about it, i've reported sellers.
> 
> Ebay doesn't, and wont do anything about it, because they make money on auction selling prices. They have a vested interest in all auctions ending with higher final sale prices. So no, nothing will ever be done about it.
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone was ripped off, They wanted something and were willing to pay what they did for it

When Wyndham came after me they asked me how it was possible that I owned contracts the generated only x points annually but I had over 9x  points in reservations.  I explained that I started the year with an allocation of  3x  points,  then used the credit pool to "borrow" 6x  points, I then made reservations with all  9x  points. I then sold 2/3 of what I owned (now stripped of points) leaving the account as he saw it. When I gave him the additional information that Wyndham was the ultimate buyer. he was pissed and accused me of essentially what you are .... no ethics 

My comeback to him was to say, I didnt take advantage of Wyndham when I sold them  points from at the rate of $5/1000 points and If anyone took advantage of anyone, it was wyndham that took advantage of the poor guy that paid $150/1000 points for the same points that I had sold back to Wyndham to sell again for $150/1000. 

If anyone was lacking ethics, it was Wyndham that sold.  what was available on ebay for $7000.  to some poor soul for $150000
and in the case of sellers that use  shills to  bid up the price, Its not  buyers that are the victims because they paid more than they should have,  The real victim is the guy that paid Wyndham $150000 originally

I used to describe the timeshare relief companies and guys like me that bought from them as nothing but mice picking up the crumbs dropped by wyndham as the picked the flesh from their customers

Dude, 
if you want to go after anyone for illegal and exploitive sales practices You are looking in the wrong direction


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## ronparise (Sep 24, 2022)

b2bailey said:


> I confess I was wondering the same.



Dont know yet


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## WManning (Sep 24, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I dont think anyone was ripped off, They wanted something and were willing to pay what they did for it
> 
> When Wyndham came after me they asked me how it was possible that I owned contracts the generated only x points annually but I had over 9x  points in reservations.  I explained that I started the year with an allocation of  3x  points,  then used the credit pool to "borrow" 6x  points, I then made reservations with all  9x  points. I then sold 2/3 of what I owned (now stripped of points) leaving the account as he saw it. When I gave him the additional information that Wyndham was the ultimate buyer. he was pissed and accused me of essentially what you are .... no ethics
> 
> ...


Wyndham has slowly closed the door on mice picking up the crumbs that affected Wyndhams bottom line.  The last few years they have systematically  eliminated just about all of their competition. Ovations alone took inventory back and eliminated abuse of exit teams. Look at anyone renting or the flippers of deeds everyone of these guys that were eliminated put thousands on Wyndham' s earnings per share. What is more important share holders were rewarded with a higher Price per share. We all know most executives are awarded stock options that can be exercised at a discount. The big picture says follow the money trail if you really want to understand why things are being implemented.


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## WManning (Sep 24, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I have complained to ebay about it, i've reported sellers.
> 
> Ebay doesn't, and wont do anything about it, because they make money on auction selling prices. They have a vested interest in all auctions ending with higher final sale prices. So no, nothing will ever be done about it.
> 
> ...


It's not always shill bidding by sellers. Sometimes Its people playing games to force buyers to pay a higher price. You also need to pay attention to bid retractions a lot of gaming of system.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 24, 2022)

What is with all of these various posters constantly attacking Ron?  It makes me angry and makes TUG not a nice place to be.  

Here I am in this horrible place with Wyndham, and I don't know what the deal is with all of these people constantly defending Wyndham and attacking those of us who are not completely enamored with everything Wyndham does.  Wyndham is the big corporation.  I thought everyone hated big corporations and corporate greed and CEO's who are raking in the bucks while treating the little guy like crap.  Why don't you get on the side of owners who are being bullied by Wyndham.  

Unless some of you work for Wyndham, and that is what it's really about.  We know Wyndham trolls these sites to glean whatever they can.  Obviously, because Ron was contacted by Wyndham employees about his giveaways.  Why does that not make you mad, that Wyndham has spies who come here and snoop around and use whatever they can find against the people who are being victimized.  

This is disgusting behavior of a few TUG members and guests, and they are allowed to be disgusting and no one does a thing about it.  

Ron never did anything WRONG!!!!!


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## troy12n (Sep 24, 2022)

> This is disgusting behavior of a few TUG members and guests, and they are allowed to be disgusting and no one does a thing about it.



Settle down, don't get your panties in a wad. "Disgusting behavior"? Come on now. We are entitled to our opinion, as you are yours... 



> Ron never did anything WRONG!!!!!



That is *clearly* an opinion not shared by very many people here... he certainly has his vocal supporters *and* opponents.


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## CO skier (Sep 24, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham is the big corporation.  I thought everyone hated big corporations and corporate greed and CEO's who are raking in the bucks while treating the little guy like crap.  Why don't you get on the side of owners who are being bullied by Wyndham.


I cannot speak for "everyone" who lives in Oregon, California and Washington; for myself, I appreciate the economies of scale big corporations bring to putting food on the shelves of my local market such a Kroger and Safeway;  I appreciate the economies of scale the big oil companies bring to keeping the gas pumps ready to deliver when I want to fill up; I appreciate the convenience that large telecom companies provide for my phone and internet and entertainment wants.

I appreciate the vacations Wyndham offers through my WorldMark and Club Wyndham memberships, that I could not otherwise afford.

There were posts after the introduction of automatic upgrades by Wyndham about how much easier it was to find 3 and 4 bedroom unit availability.  That benefited all owners.  Owner Priority Booking Windows obviously benefits all owners at the expense of non-owners.

What rules has Wyndham introduced in the last decade that did not benefit the majority of owners?  It came as a price, of course; one paid by those "maximizing their ownership", but there are posts that the owners affected represent less than 5% of the Club Wyndham ownership.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 25, 2022)

Bnoble commented that I could be the benevolent relative who books for family and friends.  That is not going to happen anymore. 

Just one example of my fear of booking anything for family and friends:  We have a wedding coming up in Salt Lake City, and a bunch of family would love to stay in Park City for the amenities, rather than SLC and have contacted me about the Wyndham resort.  We are talking aunts, cousins, my stepdad and stepsisters, and many close friends of our family because this is our nephew, and my sister's friends and family are also my friends and family.  I told all of them that I couldn't get Wyndham because I cannot add guests to anything anymore.  We can stay there, sure, but we are afraid Wyndham will cancel any and all family, even if they are in the rooms the same 3-4 days we are there.  Why would I worry about it?  Because it's already happened.  

I have looked at Marriott resorts for them and have several to offer via exchange, but I don't have the Marriott resorts to exchange for other people.  I barely have enough for the kids and us.  I bought more that are in the process  of closing.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 25, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I cannot speak for "everyone" who lives in Oregon, California and Washington; for myself, I appreciate the economies of scale big corporations bring to putting food on the shelves of my local market such a Kroger and Safeway;  I appreciate the economies of scale the big oil companies bring to keeping the gas pumps ready to deliver when I want to fill up; I appreciate the convenience that large telecom companies provide for my phone and internet and entertainment wants.
> 
> I appreciate the vacations Wyndham offers through my WorldMark and Club Wyndham memberships, that I could not otherwise afford.
> 
> ...


As mega renters, we RARELY got any upgrades to the biggest units.  After the "upgraded" system 6-7 years ago, we didn't even get automatic upgrades, even if a unit was sitting online in a 2 bedroom and a one bedroom was there to upgrade to the 2 bedroom, and we are Founders' level of ownership.  

You cannot know what was available or not available to VIP unless you have it yourself, and that is what most do not understand.  

I hope you enjoy the high gas prices in your part of the country and the inflation we are experiencing on groceries right now.


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## ronparise (Sep 25, 2022)

CO skier said:


> The auction I looked at sold for less than $4,000 -- $3,595.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I thought this would be an interesting comparison

 the 20000 credit contract we were discussing  was  a fully loaded contract  (this years credits, last years credits and next years credits all included) So on the first day the buyer can use the account he will have  60000 credits to use;

price of contract  $3595
closing fee    $195
transfer fee $299
mf for the 2020 credits  $1922 and 
mf for the 3 months since the anniversary date $727

Total $6738 / 20000    33 cents per credit for a fully loaded contract


The other contract a 40000 credit contract with only 40000 credits at settlement (or shortly thereafter) Assuming the buyer wanted 120000 to use at settlement and so we can compare the 2 contracts the buyer will have to buy in 80000 contracts at 8 cents a credit  so $6400



40000 credit contract with an anniversary date of Dec 2022   $2085
closing costs and transfer fees $950

 buy in 80000 one time use credits  at 8 cents = $6400


total $9435 for a fully loaded 40000 credit account = 24 cents a credit



My only point is the same point that I was trying to make before, which is essentially the same thing that you are saying.  You need to understand the product and you need to read the whole auction listing to make an informed bid


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## CO skier (Sep 25, 2022)

ronparise said:


> My only point is the same point that I was trying to make before, which is essentially the same thing that you are saying.  You need to understand the product and you need to read the whole auction listing to make an informed bid


I thought the point of this thread was to offer opinions on the "value" of a certain eBay auction.  You made many points along the way.  One of them was:



ronparise said:


> Thats why I tried to compare apples to apples  ie Wyndham legacy resorts to Worldmarks   154000 point weeks to 10000 credit weeks.  sometimes they are identical units   When it comes to money, it seems to me that Wyndhan is generally cheaper to buy, and worldmark is cheaper to own,


I tried to compare apples to apples for anyone who might want to vacation at Oceanside, CA, but there are always differing views of what represents "value".  Some people want lower cost (WorldMark wins) while others value location (Club Wyndham offers better views, if you can get them).

My analysis showed that the eBay Club Wyndham Oceanside auction had negative value compared to a typical WorldMark eBay auction with credits good anywhere in the system at 13 months.

Instead of trying to change the subject this late in the thread by comparing one WorldMark auction to another, I would like to see your comparison of the value of the eBay WorldMark auction that I linked, that anyone could have entered a bid for, versus the Club Wyndham Oceanside eBay auction in post #1.  You and I know it would be a fools errand to use the shill-bidded final price of $7,101, so use the auction price you were willing to pay, or use the (lower) auction price at the time I posted $3,101, or use a sales price of $1.  It is highly unlikely the Club Wyndham Oceanside contract will transfer before the end of the year, so any points available will be lost.  Not so for WorldMark, and therein is a major advantage.

To conclude, for the specific Club Wyndham Oceanside contract in post #1, using a purely "dollars and cents" analysis showed that WorldMark Oceanside was both 1) cheaper to buy on a usage basis (is that not why someone would buy a timeshare?) and 2) cheaper to own.


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## ronparise (Sep 26, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I thought the point of this thread was to offer opinions on the "value" of a certain eBay auction.



no that was not the point of this thread I was the original poster and my original post asked a simple question

what do you think this thing will sell for?

not what do you think this thing is worth, much less what is it worth to you

“Value”comparisons to other timeshare systems or to other resorts in Oceanside are interesting but not what I was asking. I must confess however thatI went down that same rabbit hole with you

thanks for the reminder that price and value are two different things


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## am1 (Sep 26, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What is with all of these various posters constantly attacking Ron?  It makes me angry and makes TUG not a nice place to be.
> 
> Here I am in this horrible place with Wyndham, and I don't know what the deal is with all of these people constantly defending Wyndham and attacking those of us who are not completely enamored with everything Wyndham does.  Wyndham is the big corporation.  I thought everyone hated big corporations and corporate greed and CEO's who are raking in the bucks while treating the little guy like crap.  Why don't you get on the side of owners who are being bullied by Wyndham.
> 
> ...


Wyndham attacks at the top (mega renters) and other owners are happy until Wyndham comes for them.  Then there is no one else to help fight. 

What Ron did wrong was taking and bragging about it so the people on here knew he was making money from the rental business. I had no interest in that.  Only interested in making money and fighting Wyndjam


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 26, 2022)

CO skier said:


> What rules has Wyndham introduced in the last decade that did not benefit the majority of owners?  It came as a price, of course; one paid by those "maximizing their ownership", but there are posts that the owners affected represent less than 5% of the Club Wyndham ownership.



Actually it's closer to less than 1% in reality.  As I have said in the past - TUG generally represents the exception to the rule when it comes to Wyndham timeshare ownership.  I know this for a fact as I have captured many of the product enhancement requests over the past two plus years and have worked hand in hand with people at Wyndham to analyze these requests to determine if they will have a measurable impact to the majority of the ownership. I know that a fair amount of the TUG specific enhancement requests are geared toward a very small subset of the ownership that rents quite often, and/or owns millions of points, and therefore wants to see more granular and advanced functionalities on the website that won't be useful for the vast majority of non-VIP owners and even for the majority VIP owners (like me) for example.  This doesn't take away from the collective dissatisfaction of this small subset of the ownership - I can sympathize with their plight(s) - but it does mean, again as I have said repeatedly in the past, that we're not going to see Wyndham prioritizing outlier changes that will positively impact only a very small subset of the ownership base. 

That said, it does really concern me that some VIP owners do have legitimate gripes that for the most part appear to have gone unanswered.  It's never a good idea to penalize your best customers with this in mind - at least those that continue to play by the rules so to speak.  This is exacerbated by the fact that prior versions of the website used to have functionalities that are simply no longer present, so for those legacy owners who have been around for quite some time, their observations that the current version of the website collectively offers less flexibility and less functionality are very valid points.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 26, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What is with all of these various posters constantly attacking Ron?  It makes me angry and makes TUG not a nice place to be.
> 
> Here I am in this horrible place with Wyndham, and I don't know what the deal is with all of these people constantly defending Wyndham and attacking those of us who are not completely enamored with everything Wyndham does.  Wyndham is the big corporation.  I thought everyone hated big corporations and corporate greed and CEO's who are raking in the bucks while treating the little guy like crap.  Why don't you get on the side of owners who are being bullied by Wyndham.
> 
> ...



For anyone that chooses to take offense to what may be interpreted as somewhat controversial posts/replies, please leverage the Ignore functions on the forums so as not to continue to expose yourself to posts that may repeatedly offend based upon your respective point of view. As a general rule, the TUG moderator team does not endorse suppression of opposing viewpoints/opinions expressed without violation of the forum rules here on TUG.  If anyone feels that a particular forum post violates forum rules, then by all means report the post for review by the moderator team and we will evaluate and, if necessary, moderate accordingly.


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## ronparise (Sep 26, 2022)

am1 said:


> Wyndham attacks at the top (mega renters) and other owners are happy until Wyndham comes for them.  Then there is no one else to help fight.
> 
> What Ron did wrong was taking and bragging about it so the people on here knew he was making money from the rental business. I had no interest in that.  Only interested in making money and fighting Wyndjam



I don’t think anyone here knows how much (or how little) money I made in the 5 years I owned Wyndham timeshare. It was actually less time than that 
In my first year I rented one reservation (that came to me with a fixed week that I bought for a dollar)  In that first year I made 5 weekend reservations 10 months out, I wasn’t VIP until deep into that second year. Or third year That’s when I made the decision to go big or go home. I went big

too big in fact to handle it all myself so I turned over most of what I owned to a manager. He paid $6/1000 (mf was 5)

I never thought of what I did as bragging, although it probably was. I thought of it as sharing what I had learned

but there was method to my madness too. I wanted Wyndham to know exactly what I was doing and that all the rule changes they had done didn’t have the desired effect. Large scale commercial renting was as big as ever. With any luck I thought they would clarify their position on renting and I (and others would know what we could and couldn’t do) that or ban renting altogether.  They didn’t do either. Instead they continuedto do what they had done in the early 2000s. Change the rules to make renting less profitable

I really don’t think they understood the math. If I was making $10000 a month with an ownership of x points and they did things to reduce my income to $5000. I’m either gonna to accept that and make the same number of reservations to rent, or I’m gonna double my ownership to maintain my income

so my strategy didn’t work of being a braggart didn’t work and they shut me down for something altogether different than renting


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## CO skier (Sep 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Actually it's closer to less than 1% in reality.  As I have said in the past - TUG generally represents the exception to the rule when it comes to Wyndham timeshare ownership.  I know this for a fact as I have captured many of the product enhancement requests over the past two plus years and have worked hand in hand with people at Wyndham to analyze these requests to determine if they will have a measurable impact to the majority of the ownership.


A similar thought regarding skewed viewpoint TUG posts in the Wyndham forum was made five years ago when the now failed Voyager reservation system was introduced.



On June 1 2017 CO skier said:


> All the BBB complaints and protests will not have any effect.  I think TUG presents a disproportionate view of the changes, because it is disproportionately populated by VIP owners using Club Wyndham as a rental business.  This is not the average owner.  The average owners are the ones upgrading to VIP.  TUG VIPs are already there and know not to enter into a retail purchase.  As difficult as the Voyager introduction has been, I do not think it will create a blip on 3rd quarter earnings, jmo.
> 
> (The average TUG member is not "Everyone" and knows how a properly fitting timeshare [including Club Wyndham] can add immensely to their vacation enjoyment.  That, at least, is my experience as an average timeshare owner who uses timeshares for personal vacations.)



The TUG Club Wyndham forum is not as bad now as it was back then when a very few Wyndam renters would corral any Club Wyndham forum post of significance off-topic into the viewpoint of using Club Wyndham as a rental business.  I think the worst offenders were forced out of their Club Wyndham rental businesses, much to relief of those of us "everyday" owners in the Club Wyndham forum who just want to use Club Wyndham and the TUG Club Wyndham forum for our personal benefit and not for profiteering.


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## CO skier (Sep 27, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I really don’t think they understood the math. If I was making $10000 a month with an ownership of x points and they did things to reduce my income to $5000. I’m either gonna to accept that and make the same number of reservations to rent, or I’m gonna double my ownership to maintain my income


Really? Still?

This is like a broken record that skips over the key point in the song.


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## comicbookman (Sep 27, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I have complained to ebay about it, i've reported sellers.
> 
> Ebay doesn't, and wont do anything about it, because they make money on auction selling prices. They have a vested interest in all auctions ending with higher final sale prices. So no, nothing will ever be done about it.
> 
> ...



And you making almost 1000 posts to tug as a guest, not bothering to become a member and support the forum, is taking the high moral ground?


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## ronparise (Sep 27, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Really? Still?
> 
> This is like a broken record that skips over the key point in the song.
> 
> View attachment 65620


 I cant read what you posted there, but things change over time, including my opinions   

All Im trying to say is that Wyndham is now invoking the commercial use clause directly. There was a time when Wyndhan was changing the rules in an indirect effort to curtail renting, by making it more expensive to do. They are finally taking direct aim against renting.

How they define commercial is unknown, and how they are identifying owners that they send "the letter" to is also unknown


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

> And you making almost 1000 posts to tug as a guest, not bothering to become a member and support the forum, is taking the high moral ground?



I'm just wondering... at what point does your incessant ranting about my guest status become not an "opposing viewpoint", but outright *harassment*?

If the owners of this website had intentions of requiring a paid subscription model for all users, that's their prerogative to implement that. As it stands, they don't. My guest status is of absolutely *zero concern to you*, or anyone else. I don't get access to certain functionality inside the website that you do... I made a value decision to be a guest. That's my choice, and considering my decision does not in any way affect you whatsoever, I would suggest you keep you opinions to yourself on the subject in the future... 

Also, conflating my using this website for free... as the owners allow, to shill bidders, who do, fraudulently inflate the cost of the auctions, directly affecting buyers and potential bidders, is a ridiculous comparison.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I'm just wondering... at what point does your incessant ranting about my guest status become not an "opposing viewpoint", but outright *harassment*?
> 
> If the owners of this website had intentions of requiring a paid subscription model for all users, that's their prerogative to implement that. As it stands, they don't. My guest status is of absolutely *zero concern to you*, or anyone else. I don't get access to certain functionality inside the website that you do... I made a value decision to be a guest. That's my choice, and considering my decision does not in any way affect you whatsoever, I would suggest you keep you opinions to yourself on the subject in the future...
> 
> Also, conflating my using this website for free... as the owners allow, to shill bidders, who do, fraudulently inflate the cost of the auctions, directly affecting buyers and potential bidders, is a ridiculous comparison.


Like you are not harassing a bunch of owners of Wyndham on the forums by criminalizing those of us who are mega renters?  Harassment is exactly what I would call it.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I cant read what you posted there, but things change over time, including my opinions
> 
> All Im trying to say is that Wyndham is now invoking the commercial use clause directly. There was a time when Wyndhan was changing the rules in an indirect effort to curtail renting, by making it more expensive to do. They are finally taking direct aim against renting.
> 
> How they define commercial is unknown, and how they are identifying owners that they send "the letter" to is also unknown


An aspect that others here do not mention, and I think is important, is that Wyndham didn't have to send out letters to non-owners, like Westin/ Marriott do regularly, to get new blood into their resorts with the mega renters providing new blood.  I think sales will go down.  

We had many people buy while on vacation, and we didn't advise that they rescind.  One lady let our daughter know that she bought, but it was a month before, and she wondered how to do what our daughter does, because the salesperson told her she could rent.  She spent a ridiculous amount of money and was promised by the salesperson that they had a department "just for this purpose, to help owners learn how to make money by renting."  Disgusting.  

When Wyndham starts offering free five-night stays to get people in, that will take inventory from owners as well.  They will do it.  It's a given.


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

> Like you are not harassing a bunch of owners of Wyndham on the forums by criminalizing those of us who are mega renters?  Harassment is exactly what I would call it.



Well, to your point, there's really only ONE person who I have called out by name, he knows who he is. And at this point it's beating a dead horse. 

And, in my opinion, you can't harass "a group" who is acting against the best interests of all owners, doing things which run counter to the rules. IE: calling mega renters fraudulent. You also can't be punished for calling out bad, detrimental, fraudulent behavior. If you fall into this category, sorry for your luck... change your behavior. Weren't you selling out anyway? So this won't be a concern of yours for very much longer... 

Me, and many other owners here see mega renters behavior as detrimental to our ownership, and we are glad Wyndham is finally taking a stance against the scourge of mega renters. 

And i've had many of my posts edited or deleted as a result... and if nothing else this is more of a call out to moderators to moderate more evenly.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

The thing with mega renters, is that many TUG members have been mega renters but remain silent because of the vitriol here on TUG by about 4 members and guests.  I keep wondering which of you are Wyndham higher-ups who are just trying to demonize mega renters to get the concensus on TUG against us. 

Ironically, this has been a huge change in attitude on TUG.  There were some really nice people who helped us 16 years ago on TUG with our decision to convert our Bali Hai weeks and gave advice right here in the open forums.  But that has been quashed by Wyndham and the few cheerleaders.  

Don't forget that you could become the target of these ever-changing rules that Wyndham puts into place.  

Wyndham was always the cheapest timeshare on the market, and now it's below $0 for value.  Wyndham did that.  So what you own is now worthless, unless you own developer and have low MF's and take advantage of the discounts, which we will do, if we keep anything.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The thing with mega renters, is that many TUG members have been mega renters but remain silent because of the vitriol here on TUG by about 4 members and guests.  I keep wondering which of you are Wyndham higher-ups who are just trying to demonize mega renters to get the concensus on TUG against us.
> 
> Ironically, this has been a huge change in attitude on TUG.  There were some really nice people who helped us 16 years ago on TUG with our decision to convert our Bali Hai weeks and gave advice right here in the open forums.  But that has been quashed by Wyndham and the few cheerleaders.
> 
> ...



I don't really see the irony at all.  Let me explain why.  What you're observing is far from only happening on TUG.  I am also a moderator/admin on several of the Facebook Wyndham groups.  I can tell everyone, for a fact, that this same pattern of behavior has been playing out on every Wyndham Facebook group.  I'm a pattern type person - I have seen this pattern emerging over the past three years outside of TUG and also here on TUG.  Wyndham has been hard at work changing the narrative - and the fact is that the vast majority of normal owners seem to buy into their argument - that megarenters are a part of the problem.  The megarenters are attempting to fight back against Wyndham changing this narrative - both here on TUG and on other forums - but it seems to be a losing battle at least to date - since Wyndham makes the rules - we are all simply playing on their field(s).  Regardless of how anyone feels about this topic (or any other topic really) - everyone is entitled to their opinions on either side. 

So, yes, there is a changing pattern of consensus here on TUG - which is the exact same pattern emerging on other public forums.  TUG is in no way unique with respect to this pattern in other words.  Change is inevitable in this life.  Change is the only constant IME.  Changes often come in fits and starts and bunched together - as has been the case particularly during the pandemic with Wyndham.  As @Jan M. has often said - these changes are likely going to continue.  I'm honestly surprised that anyone doesn't see this same pattern bigger picture - I have clearly observed this ever since becoming an owner in July 2018.  It is clear as day to me. 

With regard to becoming a target - I've already been impacted when Wyndham locked down VIP benefits applying to resale points last year.  This perk was never a defined benefit - so I count myself fortunate that I was able to utilize it for the first couple of years of my VIPP ownership.  It was fun while it lasted, but that fun is now over. 

IME the vast majority of timeshares are worthless on the resale market - a timeshare that actually has any real resale value seems to be the exception to the rule. 

From a forum moderator standpoint, we as TUG moderators are not here to attempt to dissuade various opinions, or to prevent new/emerging consensus movements from taking root here on TUG - we are simply here to enforce the forum rules when applicable as these movements play out before all of us.


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

You speak of "value", but anyone who bought a timeshare as an investment is a fool, so any claims of "value" are moot. It's a vacation vehicle, nothin more, nothing less. And an expensive one at that. 

The fact that a minority of owners were able to break even or turn a profit on something that is not meant to even do that, doesn't matter. You all were breaking the rules the whole time, and knew it. 

You can put whatever kind of spin on it you want, but the more you do, the more desperate you look, as a group, to validate your fraudulent activities. Get over it. Move on, turn away from the dark side.


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## CO skier (Sep 29, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'm a pattern type person - I have seen this pattern emerging over the past three years outside of TUG and also here on TUG.


Most who post in the TUG Wyndham forum are more forward-looking and knowledge than the Facebook mobs.

The "pattern" starting emerging in the TUG Wyndham forum 10 years ago, if not before.









						[2012] Just lost my reservation when I tried to cancel & rebook
					

I just wanted to let everyone know that I just lost my Bonnett Creek Christmas reservation when I tried to cancel and rebook for the discounted points. This is the first time that I've gotten burned using the cancel and rebook trick. I am really bummed, but at least we have a back up plan. I...




					tugbbs.com


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Most who post in the TUG Wyndham forum are more forward-looking and knowledge than the Facebook mobs.
> 
> The "pattern" starting emerging in the TUG Wyndham forum 10 years ago, if not before.
> 
> ...



Indeed - that's why I referenced since I became an owner in July 2018 - having joined TUG in June 2018 when I rescinded my initial developer purchase.  It's good to know that this pattern is clearly demonstrated prior to my joining TUG - however I cannot comment on that since it's before my time.


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## comicbookman (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I'm just wondering... at what point does your incessant ranting about my guest status become not an "opposing viewpoint", but outright *harassment*?
> 
> If the owners of this website had intentions of requiring a paid subscription model for all users, that's their prerogative to implement that. As it stands, they don't. My guest status is of absolutely *zero concern to you*, or anyone else. I don't get access to certain functionality inside the website that you do... I made a value decision to be a guest. That's my choice, and considering my decision does not in any way affect you whatsoever, I would suggest you keep you opinions to yourself on the subject in the future...
> 
> Also, conflating my using this website for free... as the owners allow, to shill bidders, who do, fraudulently inflate the cost of the auctions, directly affecting buyers and potential bidders, is a ridiculous comparison.



I am simply pointing out that High moral ground is a matter of opinion.  In my opinion you don't occupy it.


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## CO skier (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> You speak of "value", but anyone who bought a timeshare as an investment is a fool, so any claims of "value" are moot. It's a vacation vehicle, nothin more, nothing less. And an expensive one at that.


I purchased (on eBay -- sent a check for more than $8,000 with no hesitation to a seller I had dealt with before) and use my timeshare ownerships strictly for personal use.  Ten years ago, it started out saving me at least $1,000/year versus comparable rentals (if I could even find something comparable).  Now I save at least $3,000/year versus comparable rentals, because I am spending much more time vacationing now than ten years ago.

That's at least $20,000 over the last ten years that I can spend elsewhere.  Some of that did and will continue to go towards increasing my timeshare portfolio.  For me, timeshare ownership offers value beyond belief.


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## comicbookman (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Well, to your point, there's really only ONE person who I have called out by name, he knows who he is. And at this point it's beating a dead horse.
> 
> And, in my opinion, you can't harass "a group" who is acting against the best interests of all owners, doing things which run counter to the rules. IE: calling mega renters fraudulent. You also can't be punished for calling out bad, detrimental, fraudulent behavior. If you fall into this category, sorry for your luck... change your behavior. Weren't you selling out anyway? So this won't be a concern of yours for very much longer...
> 
> ...



It is the definition of harassment to beat a dead horse.  So in your own words you are harassing.


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## Jan M. (Sep 29, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> It is the definition of harassment to beat a dead horse.  So in your own words you are harassing.



The person he is supposedly "harrassing" is guilty of beating a dead horse. By that rational we should all be saying she is guilty of "harassing" us with her personal tales of woe and vitriol against Wyndham.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I purchased (on eBay -- sent a check for more than $8,000 with no hesitation to a seller I had dealt with before) and use my timeshare ownerships strictly for personal use.  Ten years ago, it started out saving me at least $1,000/year versus comparable rentals (if I could even find something comparable).  Now I save at least $3,000/year versus comparable rentals, because I am spending much more time vacationing now than ten years ago.
> 
> That's at least $20,000 over the last ten years that I can spend elsewhere.  Some of that did and will continue to go towards increasing my timeshare portfolio.  For me, timeshare ownership offers value beyond belief.



Your assessment proves out my spreadsheet analyses to date - the longer you own timeshares and the more you utilize what you own - the better the ROI becomes over the long term.  Timesharing ROI is realized over a 10+ year period of time IME.  I'm on track - roughly four years into my Wyndham VIP timeshare ownership - to break even within the 10 year time period - and anything beyond that just drives down my long term cost of ownership when compared to a resale-only ownership.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> The person he is supposedly "harrassing" is guilty of beating a dead horse. By that rational we should all be saying she is guilty of "harassing" us with her personal tales of woe and vitriol against Wyndham.


Are you talking about me, because I don't feel harassed.  I don't feel that way at all.  I just think the attitudes toward mega renters have made a big turnaround since I joined in 2005.  Most of those that are angry at mega renters are newer members.  You don't see older members attacking people who are upset about the letters.  It's the new members who probably didn't get in on the ground floor, when it was cheap to get Platinum status.  

I am done with this one because now I even feel attacked by people whom I know were renting.  When that happens, you know you are in the minority.  

I wish you all well.  I am done with the Wyndham forum and with Wyndham.  I have been teetering on keeping some of our Founder's points and that level of ownership, but I think I have been talked out of keeping anything.  I cannot be the benevolent aunt or grandparent or sister because I cannot add names to anything.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The thing with mega renters, is that many TUG members have been mega renters but remain silent because of the vitriol here on TUG by about 4 members and guests.  I keep wondering which of you are Wyndham higher-ups who are just trying to demonize mega renters to get the concensus on TUG against us.
> 
> Ironically, this has been a huge change in attitude on TUG.  There were some really nice people who helped us 16 years ago on TUG with our decision to convert our Bali Hai weeks and gave advice right here in the open forums.  But that has been quashed by Wyndham and the few cheerleaders.
> 
> ...


*unless you own developer and have low MF's and take advantage of the discounts, *

and even then its only worth something to you.. try to exit the system and you will find out it really is worthless


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

And still you keep responding to my posts that your only dog in this fight is "i'm a guest"...


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## bnoble (Sep 29, 2022)

Wyndham has been worth pennies on the dollar in the secondary market for almost as long as I've owned it--well before most of the moves Wyndham has made to curtail renting. And, that's probably not surprising, because for most people the value proposition is not in renting, it is in the using. Yes, a number of people have left (or been pushed out of) the rental business, but that seems to be on the margins of the overall market as near as I can tell.

Wyndham is worth very little on the secondary market because (a) timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought; (b) Wyndham's brand value recognition is not worth much compared to the majors; and (c) the system is _huge_, so at any point there are plenty of people looking to exit.

No one is going to get excited by the company that brought you La Quinta, Ramada, and Baymont. Those don't even rise to the level of your average Holiday Inn---and that's already low rent. But the WVR resorts themselves are generally very good, they are often in attractive locations, and the ongoing costs to own can be very reasonable. So, if someone can get past the "sold not bought" barrier and has some understanding of the portfolio, it can be one of the better values in timeshare ownership.

You don't need to own a developer account for this to be true. In fact, I suspect for many families' use cases, VIP is more or less useless. That's because they are traveling to high-demand locations at peak times, and those are not the sorts of reservations that are sitting around at the discount window. Upgrades are likewise not particularly helpful. If I need a 3BR, I'm not going to book the 2BR and hope I get upgraded. I am going to book the 3BR from the start. If I only needed the 2BR, maybe the 3BR is a little better for me, but maybe it makes no difference at all. Yes, you can probably find instances of people who can do most of their travel in shoulder seasons and make VIP hay, but you need an awful lot of those reservations to make back the difference in purchase price. When it comes time to dispose of it, even if you give it away, who cares? You paid next to nothing for it in the first place.


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## Jan M. (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are you talking about me, because I don't feel harassed.  I don't feel that way at all.  I just think the attitudes toward mega renters have made a big turnaround since I joined in 2005.  Most of those that are angry at mega renters are newer members.  You don't see older members attacking people who are upset about the letters.  It's the new members who probably didn't get in on the ground floor, when it was cheap to get Platinum status.
> 
> I am done with this one because now I even feel attacked by people whom I know were renting.  When that happens, you know you are in the minority.
> 
> I wish you all well.  I am done with the Wyndham forum and with Wyndham.  I have been teetering on keeping some of our Founder's points and that level of ownership, but I think I have been talked out of keeping anything.  I cannot be the benevolent aunt or grandparent or sister because I cannot add names to anything.



Many of us have vented in the threads. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone agrees with our point of view when we do. Nothing wrong with that either. 

Has Wyndham suspended your two Founders accounts from adding guest names to any reservations? if not as a preemptive move you might consider taking screenshots on say on something like White Pages that show your family members and your siblings children's names. Send them to Owner Care and Michael Brown's office as documentation that these are the people you will be using guest confirmations for.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

The attitude on Tug toward renting Wydham timeshares has indeed changed over time.  Its now pretty close to the way renting and renters were treated on the Worldmark Owners Forum (like crap)

The attitude is or at least seems to be that the money owners that rent,  make,  is some how picked from the pockets of owners that dont.  
Thats just not true, especially today with the various loopholes having been closed for sometime. 

The most ridiculous argument against renting is the  "Non Owner argument"   ie a non owner in a unit means an owner cant stay there.  ..... Duh... of course not
What they dont seem to understand is that an owner in a unit means no other owner can stay in that unit either. 

The only argument against renting that ever made sense to me was the argument against cancel and rebook. a VIP owner could get 2 prime reservations for the price (in points) of one. but that loophole has been closed for some time

What it comes down to is that those against renting simply resent someone that is able to use the system to make money.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Wyndham has been worth pennies on the dollar in the secondary market for almost as long as I've owned it--well before most of the moves Wyndham has made to curtail renting. And, that's probably not surprising, because for most people the value proposition is not in renting, it is in the using. Yes, a number of people have left (or been pushed out of) the rental business, but that seems to be on the margins of the overall market as near as I can tell.
> 
> Wyndham is worth very little on the secondary market because (a) timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought; (b) Wyndham's brand value recognition is not worth much compared to the majors; and (c) the system is _huge_, so at any point there are plenty of people looking to exit.
> 
> ...



That says exactly what Ive been thinking about , VIP.   Whats the point without cancel and rebook.?


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## bnoble (Sep 29, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the point without cancel and rebook.?


I think the point is exactly what it was intended to be: a way to move distressed inventory that would otherwise go unbooked, clearing a few excess points from the system. If an owner happens to be flexible enough to take advantage of that, more power to them. Go for it!

I also think that there is an interesting intersection between VIP and renting that had value. There are a few TUGgers who, after cancel-rebook was closed, moved to a business model where they scoured the web site looking for things in the discount window that they might plausibly rent. I bet other people did too. That's probably a service, all things considered, because at least some of those would probably have gone unbooked. Clearing distressed inventory is a good thing. That the Wyndham sales organization has to subsidize it is a nice bonus.

Most of those TUGgers have either stopped or gone underground. If they've stopped, it is probably not good overall for the system, as it potentially leaves more unused points, and more distressed inventory.



ronparise said:


> What it comes down to is that those against renting simply resent someone that is able to use the system to make money.


At least for me, it is simpler than that. I'm in this for my own vacations. I understand that at some level I am in competition with every other owner in getting the vacations I want. My competitive advantage is that I understand the system better than most people, and I am willing to do what it takes to book my reservations as soon as humanly (computationally?) possible so that I have the best chance of getting what I want.

Folks in the business of renting have a strong economic incentive to _also_ understand the system and to _also _put in the work to get high-value reservations. They are probably more motivated to do those things than the average owner. So, they are probably more "direct" competition for my own vacations.

I don't begrudge them the ability to make a few bucks along the way; that doesn't matter to me at all. But, I will not shed a tear if they liquidate their holdings and those points make their way to "regular" owners who don't work as hard as they did and aren't as much competition. I don't feel particularly bad for the ex-renters, and probably won't commiserate, because it's slightly better for me if they are out of the business. To badly mis-quote Michael Corleone: It's nothing personal, it's strictly vacation.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Well, to your point, there's really only ONE person who I have called out by name, he knows who he is. And at this point it's beating a dead horse.
> 
> And, in my opinion, you can't harass "a group" who is acting against the best interests of all owners, doing things which run counter to the rules. IE: calling mega renters fraudulent. You also can't be punished for calling out bad, detrimental, fraudulent behavior. If you fall into this category, sorry for your luck... change your behavior. Weren't you selling out anyway? So this won't be a concern of yours for very much longer...
> 
> ...




If Im that one you are talking about, You missed your mark. 

I have never felt harassed when being called out for im doing, Ill take a look at the behavior, change it or not,  and then move on.  What I have done is to always try to have the last word, IE I wont let your accusations stand, when I know Ive done nothing to hurt anyone else.

For example as nuts as I think CoSkier is, I did listen and then change my mind about cancel and rebook. I acknowledged that exploitation of that loophole could disadvantage others


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

So there we have it from the horse's mouth... they don't feel harassed. 

So maybe now that one TUGGER can shut their trap about my "*guest*" status... if the owners of this site (*which you are not*) wish to end people being able to join for free, then I will at that time make a value decision about whether or not to becoming a paying member... until then, since you aren't an owner or moderator, you can go pound sand...


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

So there we have it from the horse's mouth... they don't feel harassed. 

So maybe now that one TUGGER can shut their trap about my "*guest*" status... if the owners of this site (*which you are not*) wish to end people being able to join for free, then I will at that time make a value decision about whether or not to becoming a paying member... until then, since you aren't an owner or moderator, you can go pound sand...


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I think the point is exactly what it was intended to be: a way to move distressed inventory that would otherwise go unbooked, clearing a few excess points from the system. If an owner happens to be flexible enough to take advantage of that, more power to them. Go for it!



Yes, I understand the point of VIP discounts to be Wyndham's attempt to get unwanted (distressed) inventory reserved.  But  the benefit to the club is a subtle one.  and the benefit to any one  club member is, as you suggest, not worth the cost. There used to be a guy on the old Yahoo forums and tug (pacodemountainside) that made the case  by comparing the money saved by the VIP owner making discount reservations to the money he could have made   investing the purchase money into the stock market

I get it.  Enticing owners to spend their points on inventory that no one wants, leaves less points available in the system to make reservations for the high demand reservations.  but
I dont see that as a benefit to Wyndham, or the club. A resort could sit vacant most of the time and as long as everyone pays their mf, theres no loss to Wyndham or the club. And I dont see that there is much benefit to  other owners. The fact that there may be a few less points available to compete for that high demand reservation I want, dosent change the fact that there are still a lot of points competing for that high demand reservation.  Its like the lottery. If I decide not to buy a ticket for a multi million dollar lottery, doesnt change the odds significantly for those that do.

The point of VIP is to give the sales team something to use to help close sales,  and thats all


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## geist1223 (Sep 29, 2022)

Not a Wyndham Owner but I do own Worldmark. If Wyndham Corporate treats Wyndham like they treat Worldmark then they are the biggest megarenter.


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## CO skier (Sep 29, 2022)

ronparise said:


> The attitude on Tug toward renting Wydham timeshares has indeed changed over time.  Its now pretty close to the way renting and renters were treated on the Worldmark Owners Forum (like crap)
> 
> The attitude is or at least seems to be that the money owners that rent,  make,  is some how picked from the pockets of owners that dont.
> Thats just not true, especially today with the various loopholes having been closed for sometime.
> ...


It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.

Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent.  What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the _money_; they were complaining about the _time_.  If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent.  They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.

What you do not seem to understand is the implied exclusivity offered by a vacation club.  If a private golf club allowed members to book the best tee times and offer them for rent, it would be more like a public golf course than a private golf club.  Where is the exclusivity, which was the point of forming the club?

What you are also missing is club members understand when another member beats them to a vacation or a tee time.  It is one thing if the member makes personal use of the vacation time or the tee time; that is the whole purpose of the club.  The objection is when the vacation time or tee time slot is used by non-club members -- for profit or not does not make any difference.  A "few" non-owner vacations or tee times can be a Club member's privilege, if that is what the Club decides.

That is what Club Wyndham has decided with the Owner Priority Booking exclusive dates.


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## bnoble (Sep 29, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> If Wyndham Corporate treats Wyndham like they treat Worldmark then they are the biggest megarenter.


That’s not in dispute.


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## Jan M. (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.
> 
> Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent.  What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the _money_; they were complaining about the _time_.  If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent.  They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.
> 
> ...



Sometimes I don't agree with you but this time I have to acknowledge you did a great job with this post.


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## VacationForever (Sep 29, 2022)

Just a data point on how much WM credits are going for.  I just closed on a WM purchase in August.  Purchase price was $7,500 for 35K credits, September anniversary and fully loaded with 70K in August.  When I took possession of the contract and started paying MF in September, I had 105K available and 35K available to borrow.  Based on my Math, after accounting for the value of the available credits, my cost was only 6 cents per point, on a stripped contract.  I bought it from one of the WM trusted brokers on wmowners.

I also got my friend to buy a resale contract.  $7,500 for 35K credits, 55K available and has a March anniversary date.  My calculation is that it will come up to about 12 cents per point on a stripped contract.  His contract will close probably in November.  I also got him to buy from a WM trusted broker on wmowners.

Both our goals are to spend a month at WM Oceanside in the summer.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.
> 
> Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent.  What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the _money_; they were complaining about the _time_.  If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent.  They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.
> 
> ...



II think you are right about the money, but it wasnt about the time either. If all they wanted was the reservation,   why didnt they just rent.  The time was still available, just from another club member  for cash, rather than from the club itself.  You said it youself that one of the best feature of the worldmark system are the cash options  Renting is a pretty good cash option.  Why didnt those owners I beat out for a reservation rent from me?   In many cases I rented for less than what their mf would be,  If it wasnt about the money, and it wasnt about the time, what was it?

And regarding exclusivity.... The thing is, that there is no exclusivity. Anyone can buy into this club. , for next to nothing.  I would guess in a private golf club, more is required for approval than just money and more money than just a buck.

Private clubs enforce their exclusivity by setting high prices and high standards for membership.  and limiting the number of members.  I dont have any experience with private golf clubs;  my father was a public course guy, who would leave the house before dawn to be the first in line for tee off.  Using your golf and tee time analogy I see Wyndham as more of a public course, than a private club.

and when you say this  *" What you are also missing is club members understand when another member beats them to a vacation or a tee time".  *What you are missing is that I was also a  member/owner with all the rights that accrue to that status. If the average owner has something like 300,000 points I had every right to 100x the number of reservations as the average guy

Dont get me wrong, I get it ....  The club through its manager can change the rules and change the way that they enforce those rules anytime and in any way they want. I couldnt do now what I did then,  That doesnt make what I did wrong, when I did it,

Like I told Wyndham when they shut me down. Just tell me what you need me to do, Ill comply and I did,



You are right about one thing.. I did come look at this stuff as a way to make money. And I dont apologize for that.


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## comicbookman (Sep 30, 2022)

troy12n said:


> So there we have it from the horse's mouth... they don't feel harassed.
> 
> So maybe now that one TUGGER can shut their trap about my "*guest*" status... if the owners of this site (*which you are not*) wish to end people being able to join for free, then I will at that time make a value decision about whether or not to becoming a paying member... until then, since you aren't an owner or moderator, you can go pound sand...



you seem to have a lot of anger to go with you perceived high moral ground.


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## SmithOp (Sep 30, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> you seem to have a lot of anger to go with you perceived high moral ground.


He's just venting from the other end of the horse as usual.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## CO skier (Sep 30, 2022)

ronparise said:


> II think you are right about the money, but it wasnt about the time either. If all they wanted was the reservation,   why didnt they just rent.  The time was still available, just from another club member  for cash, rather than from the club itself.


Now you are just being obtuse.  The obvious answer is that owners do not want to pay maintenance fees for their vacations and then pay again to rent the vacations that they want but are not available to book through the Club.



ronparise said:


> You said it youself that one of the best feature of the worldmark system are the cash options


Wyndham has instituted certain Owner Priority dates in WorldMark when cash options are disallowed to preserve some exclusivity for the owners.



ronparise said:


> And regarding exclusivity.... The thing is, that there is no exclusivity. Anyone can buy into this club. , for next to nothing.  I would guess in a private golf club, more is required for approval than just money and more money than just a buck.
> 
> Private clubs enforce their exclusivity by setting high prices and high standards for membership.  and limiting the number of members.


Once again, you are letting your preoccupation with money get in the way of clear thinking.  To access the exclusivity of a vacation club, some members pay 10s of thousands of dollars, others pay $1 and maybe get the first year's usage for free.  Both get the same exclusive vacation club access as members of the Club that the general public (renters) does not.  There are no "standards" for someone to become a Club Wyndham member.



ronparise said:


> and when you say this  *" What you are also missing is club members understand when another member beats them to a vacation or a tee time".  *What you are missing is that I was also a  member/owner with all the rights that accrue to that status. If the average owner has something like 300,000 points I had every right to 100x the number of reservations as the average guy


Sure, your had the rights to 100x reservations _for your own personal use._  Notice the key phrase "... which such Member caused to be subjected to this Trust Agreement."

From the VOI Trust Documents "Member’s Membership in the Plan and is based upon the Property Interest (or Use Rights in such Property Interest) which such Member caused to be subjected to this Trust Agreement."

From the Members' Directory




"Everyone" (on TUG) knows you did not use those 100x reservations for your personal use.  You used them to run a commercial rental business.



ronparise said:


> Dont get me wrong, I get it ....  The club through its manager can change the rules and change the way that they enforce those rules anytime and in any way they want. I couldnt do now what I did then,  That doesnt make what I did wrong, when I did it,


The rules (cited above) were the same 10 years ago as they are now.  I am sure the owners who are having their accounts suspended now when ignoring the "Wyndham letter" feel the same way you do/did when your's and others accounts were suspended in 2016, with no re-instatement.


----------



## ronparise (Sep 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Now you are just being obtuse.  The obvious answer is that owners do not want to pay maintenance fees for their vacations and then pay again to rent the vacations that they want but are not available to book through the Club.
> 
> 
> Wyndham has instituted certain Owner Priority dates in WorldMark when cash options are disallowed to preserve some exclusivity for the owners.
> ...


----------



## ronparise (Oct 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Now you are just being obtuse.  The obvious answer is that owners do not want to pay maintenance fees for their vacations and then pay again to rent the vacations that they want but are not available to book through the Club.
> 
> 
> Wyndham has instituted certain Owner Priority dates in WorldMark when cash options are disallowed to preserve some exclusivity for the owners.
> ...






You dont have to put that line from the member directory in such large print. I know what it says and I know what it means, and I knew it from the beginning 
At every opportunity I had, I challenged Wyndham to enforce it. but they didnt.  There was one annual meeting I introduced myself to the new CEO...(the guy that replaced Franz Hanning), as a megarenter.   He said..."you know we dont like you guys very much".  At the same meeting I approached the head of the transfer dept. with an issue I was having getting several contracts transferred.   I introduced myself, and she said " I know who you are"  (with some distain, I thought)  She took notes on m, Most of those miles were in interstates at over 80 mph.  I knwy problem and fixed it the next week. .. My point is, yea, everyone on tug knew what I was doing, and so did Wyndham.   Wyndham knew how many points I had, and Wyndham didnt much like me,  and they continued to help me get more points, for more rentals  


 Dont be so sure you know how I felt when my account was suspended. Most people who know me would say I have no feelings.   I knew from the beginning that that day would come, and it did,,, That was my thought,   I didnt feel anything at all, except the dread of having to tell my wife that our income just went to zero.  And the adrenaline rush as I set to work with wyndham and several other owners, to unwind this thing... And yea what started as a hobby business, developed into a moneymaker, .But I made more money the day I signed everything back to Wyndham than I did in the 5 years I was renting

Interestingly  there was nothing in the agreement I had with Wyndham that mentioned renting, In fact we agreed that neither party did anything wrong


----------



## CO skier (Oct 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> You dont have to put that line from the member directory in such large print.


I just clicked on the page of the Club Wyndham Directory to make it a readable size, then cut and pasted.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Dont be so sure you know how I felt when my account was suspended.


I was referring to this in this thread


ronparise said:


> I couldnt do now what I did then,  That doesnt make what I did wrong, when I did it,



and this from 2016


In August 2016 ronparise said:


> I know I didnt do anything wrong and I want to make sure they agree and lift the suspension...





Well ... Wyndham never lifted the suspension.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> And yea what started as a hobby business, developed into a moneymaker, .But I made more money the day I signed everything back to Wyndham than I did in the 5 years I was renting
> 
> Interestingly  there was nothing in the agreement I had with Wyndham that mentioned renting, In fact we agreed that neither party did anything wrong


On social media, anyone can create any narrative they want.  In the case of the TUG Wyndham forum, it is without fear of contradiction from Wyndham.


----------



## ronparise (Oct 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> On social media, anyone can create any narrative they want.  In the case of the TUG Wyndham forum, it is without fear of contradiction from Wyndham.



you calling me a liar, does not make it so


----------



## ronparise (Oct 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I was referring to this in this thread
> 
> 
> and this from 2016
> ...


 no they didnt  lift the suspension, but they didnt say I did anything wrong either


----------



## ronparise (Oct 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I was referring to this in this thread
> 
> 
> and this from 2016
> ...


Do you have all my past posts indexed


----------



## A.Win (Oct 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.
> 
> Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent.  What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the _money_; they were complaining about the _time_.  If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent.  They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.
> 
> ...



I am a renter and I got "the letter". The problem is that I did not rent more than the number of guest certificates given to me. More importantly, I was mostly renting unwanted time. I almost always got a discount at less popular resorts outside of peak season. I believe my VIP benefits were given to me to use rooms that might otherwise be vacant. Yet Wyndham is not smart enough to see the difference, and they gave me "the letter" anyhow. I have very few peak season reservations, yet I feel like I am a second class member at Wyndham now. I am still frustrated that they won't define commercial use for those of us that have more points than we need. The good news is that I am never invited to attend their lame "owner updates".


----------



## WManning (Oct 1, 2022)

A.Win said:


> I am a renter and I got "the letter". The problem is that I did not rent more than the number of guest certificates given to me. More importantly, I was mostly renting unwanted time. I almost always got a discount at less popular resorts outside of peak season. I believe my VIP benefits were given to me to use rooms that might otherwise be vacant. Yet Wyndham is not smart enough to see the difference, and they gave me "the letter" anyhow. I have very few peak season reservations, yet I feel like I am a second class member at Wyndham now. I am still frustrated that they won't define commercial use for those of us that have more points than we need. The good news is that I am never invited to attend their lame "owner updates".


Think of it as a gift from Wyndham never to be invited!


----------



## CO skier (Oct 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Do you have all my past posts indexed


No, but the TUG website does.  "Search" (with the magnifying glass outline) is a wonderful and effective tool.

In this particular case, I used the feature to search for the term "wrong".  I limited the search to "Posted By" and "This Forum" (Club Wyndham Plus).  Then I looked at your posts in 2016.  The whole process took less than 60 seconds.

Maybe you should try searching your own historical posts, before posting.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 2, 2022)

CO skier said:


> On social media, anyone can create any narrative they want.  In the case of the TUG Wyndham forum, it is without fear of contradiction from Wyndham.





ronparise said:


> you calling me a liar, does not make it so


Down boy!

I was simply offering two highly material facts for consideration in the court of public opinion.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 2, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Down boy!
> 
> I was simply offering two highly material facts for consideration in the court of public opinion.



I think we've heard enough of the two of you bickering.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 3, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I think we've heard enough of the two of you bickering.


I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago.


----------



## ski_sierra (Oct 3, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Whats the thinking on the value of this; 1,000,000 points at Oceanside Pier, and is the stated mf ($5/1000) close


Someone paid $7k for it, and I think they are going to get their money's worth. They could book four weeks here in the summer.

I just watched a video by @Clifbell of a unit at this resort. I think this resort is in a great location, and I'd love to stay here in the future when I enroll my daughter in a surfing camp that takes place within walking distance of this resort.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 3, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago.



Give it a try.


----------



## pagosajim (Oct 3, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago.


I think you're in the vast minority on this one.  Let it go...


----------



## SueDonJ (Oct 3, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The thing with mega renters, is that many TUG members have been mega renters but remain silent because of the vitriol here on TUG by about 4 members and guests.  I keep wondering which of you are Wyndham higher-ups who are just trying to demonize mega renters to get the concensus on TUG against us.
> 
> Ironically, this has been a huge change in attitude on TUG.  There were some really nice people who helped us 16 years ago on TUG with our decision to convert our Bali Hai weeks and gave advice right here in the open forums.  But that has been quashed by Wyndham and the few cheerleaders.
> 
> ...


Almost from the day I found TUG I've had the opinion that every timeshare developer/manager should be reading it regularly - why wouldn't they when it's free, it offers anonymity, and it's the best timeshare forum/focus group to be found on the internet! As a TUGger I actually wish more of the companies would participate, officially, and on a more consistent basis.

As a moderator I know there are several Marriott employees who participate in the Marriott forum, not as official voices of the company(ies) but in a couple cases as timeshare owners and in a few others as required reading for their positions. They're not hurting anyone and they don't contribute misinformation meant to benefit the company so I leave them alone to do their thing. I've also gained a few Marriott contacts who might verify or flesh out things that are posted here - I email them and they decide on their terms what questions they might answer and when/if they'll grant permission for me to post their official statements - it hasn't happened often and I don't abuse the contacts for my personal use, and they're good to keep in the background for occasional-but-seldom issues. I will though, and have, out Marriott employees who come here spouting misinformation in an unofficial capacity - I don't rat them out to Marriott but I post my suspicion/certainty about them being moles so that other TUGgers can decide for themselves whether they want to engage. Usually within a day or two of them being outed they disappear anyway, and I think that's a result of the Marriott background readers recognizing them as rogue employees as easily as regular TUG readers recognize them.

What I've never understood is why anyone who posts contrary to the majority TUG opinions or anyone who posts the slightest support/understanding of the timeshare companies' positions is automatically accused of being an employee/mole. If that's all it takes, Marriott owes me back pay for all the support I've given them for all the years I've been on TUG.


----------



## bnoble (Oct 3, 2022)

You make some great points, but I'd probably disagree with this bit:


SueDonJ said:


> it's the best timeshare [...] focus group to be found on the internet!


I am quite sure that TUGgers are not representative of the average timeshare owner, if only because we are a self-selecting group. If someone wanted to know how the typical current or prospective owner felt about something, TUG is as likely to lead them in the wrong direction.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Oct 3, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Almost from the day I found TUG I've had the opinion that every timeshare developer/manager should be reading it regularly - why wouldn't they when it's free, it offers anonymity, and it's the best timeshare forum/focus group to be found on the internet! As a TUGger I actually wish more of the companies would participate, officially, and on a more consistent basis.
> 
> As a moderator I know there are several Marriott employees who participate in the Marriott forum, not as official voices of the company(ies) but in a couple cases as timeshare owners and in a few others as required reading for their positions. They're not hurting anyone and they don't contribute misinformation meant to benefit the company so I leave them alone to do their thing. I've also gained a few Marriott contacts who might verify or flesh out things that are posted here - I email them and they decide on their terms what questions they might answer and when/if they'll grant permission for me to post their official statements - it hasn't happened often and I don't abuse the contacts for my personal use, and they're good to keep in the background for occasional-but-seldom issues. I will though, and have, out Marriott employees who come here spouting misinformation in an unofficial capacity - I don't rat them out to Marriott but I post my suspicion/certainty about them being moles so that other TUGgers can decide for themselves whether they want to engage. Usually within a day or two of them being outed they disappear anyway, and I think that's a result of the Marriott background readers recognizing them as rogue employees as easily as regular TUG readers recognize them.
> 
> What I've never understood is why anyone who posts contrary to the majority TUG opinions or anyone who posts the slightest support/understanding of the timeshare companies' positions is automatically accused of being an employee/mole. If that's all it takes, Marriott owes me back pay for all the support I've given them for all the years I've been on TUG.


Wyndham's own website has a disclosure that is very revealing in how it wants to turn owners against anyone who rents:

*TIMESHARE OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations. Due to the ongoing pandemic, additional inventory may be released for guest usage.*


----------



## SueDonJ (Oct 3, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham's own website has a disclosure that is very revealing in how it wants to turn owners against anyone who rents:
> 
> *TIMESHARE OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
> Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations. Due to the ongoing pandemic, additional inventory may be released for guest usage.*


I don't see any insult or harm intended in that basic statement. In fact, I think it's good that Wyndham is being transparent in boldly stating on the website that there's good reason to be aware of the recent changes that impact owner rentals.

Admittedly I don't know Wyndham, only what I've been able to understand from reading TUG. But as a Marriott owner who recognizes that our right to rent our intervals is expressly stated in the governing docs, I wish that Marriott would selectively enforce the "commercial activity" prohibition that's also in the governing docs. It's very vaguely worded, intentionally, and they have the right to enforce it in some cases while not enforcing it in others. Even knowing that as a recent owner/renter such an enforcement might negatively impact me, I still would prefer enforcement that puts limitations on the largest mega-renter businesses.

But that doesn't mean that I hate all the TUGgers who have rental businesses - in fact I use one of them to rent my Marriotts! It just means that I simply want owners who intend to personally use their ownerships for themselves or their direct family members to be prioritized over owners who rent to the public, and I'm in favor of Marriott taking whatever legal steps they can to make that happen.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Oct 3, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't see any insult or harm intended in that basic statement. In fact, I think it's good that Wyndham is being transparent in boldly stating on the website that there's good reason to be aware of the recent changes that impact owner rentals.
> 
> Admittedly I don't know Wyndham, only what I've been able to understand from reading TUG. But as a Marriott owner who recognizes that our right to rent our intervals is expressly stated in the governing docs, I wish that Marriott would selectively enforce the "commercial activity" prohibition that's also in the governing docs. It's very vaguely worded, intentionally, and they have the right to enforce it in some cases while not enforcing it in others. Even knowing that as a recent owner/renter such an enforcement might negatively impact me, I still would prefer enforcement that puts limitations on the largest mega-renter businesses.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that I hate all the TUGgers who have rental businesses - in fact I use one of them to rent my Marriotts! It just means that I simply want owners who intend to personally use their ownerships for themselves or their direct family members to be prioritized over owners who rent to the public, and I'm in favor of Marriott taking whatever legal steps they can to make that happen.


Any time you are renting ANY date and ANY timeshare, you could be taking it away from another owner.  This is my entire point.  So this could end up as a bone of contention for Marriott owners at some point, if Marriott does this as well.  I won't be a happy camper, but I at least will have had this lousy Wyndham experience to prepare me. 

And by the way, we cannot add anyone to our reservations, no matter what resort and what date.  We are blocked from adding names.  They are automatically cancelled.  So this warning on the website doesn't cover those of us who cannot add any names to anything.

So many owners are having to deed back and give away timeshares that are worth less than zero after this change.  Your Marriott weeks will never be less than zero, and mine won't either.  I can always use them for great exchanges, and I honestly don't even rent Marriott, but I do rent Sheratons, which is now Marriott.  I don't expect Marriott to go down this rocky road. (That makes me want ice cream!)


----------



## troy12n (Oct 3, 2022)

Man, some of you just can't give it up... so defensive of your "turf". Entitled to make money at the expense of others. 

And no, we aren't in the minority in this opinion. Maybe we are here, where so many are the disciples of the "pied piper of Wyndham timeshares"... but maybe it's good that TUG is no longer a "safe space" for charlatans such as them. 

Even now, he shall not be named admits no fault. lol...


----------



## troy12n (Oct 3, 2022)

Literally this whole thread is about 2 people playing the victim... outrageous

The one who started this thread isn't even allowed to be an owner anymore because of his transgressions, so literally he's just stirring up stuff


----------



## chapjim (Oct 3, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Literally this whole thread is about 2 people playing the victim... outrageous
> 
> The one who started this thread isn't even allowed to be an owner anymore because of his transgressions, so literally he's just stirring up stuff



Troy -- You have made your point _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_.  It should no longer be necessary to trot out the same vile schtick every time someone posts something you don't like.  Give yourself (and the rest of us) a break.


----------



## am1 (Oct 3, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't see any insult or harm intended in that basic statement. In fact, I think it's good that Wyndham is being transparent in boldly stating on the website that there's good reason to be aware of the recent changes that impact owner rentals.
> 
> Admittedly I don't know Wyndham, only what I've been able to understand from reading TUG. But as a Marriott owner who recognizes that our right to rent our intervals is expressly stated in the governing docs, I wish that Marriott would selectively enforce the "commercial activity" prohibition that's also in the governing docs. It's very vaguely worded, intentionally, and they have the right to enforce it in some cases while not enforcing it in others. Even knowing that as a recent owner/renter such an enforcement might negatively impact me, I still would prefer enforcement that puts limitations on the largest mega-renter businesses.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that I hate all the TUGgers who have rental businesses - in fact I use one of them to rent my Marriotts! It just means that I simply want owners who intend to personally use their ownerships for themselves or their direct family members to be prioritized over owners who rent to the public, and I'm in favor of Marriott taking whatever legal steps they can to make that happen.



So you are against capitalism?


----------



## ronparise (Oct 4, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago.



im done


ski_sierra said:


> Someone paid $7k for it, and I think they are going to get their money's worth. They could book four weeks here in the summer.
> 
> I just watched a video by @Clifbell of a unit at this resort. I think this resort is in a great location, and I'd love to stay here in the future when I enroll my daughter in a surfing camp that takes place within walking distance of this resort.



I think that there are two things that drive the price of these things. one is ARP and if a person wants a month at this resort, $7000 is cheap. It gives you the opportunity to stay a months in a 2 bedroom unit on the Southern Ca coast for $5000. A 2 bed in a a nearby Marriott Residence Inn, not on the water would be $350 a night  ( $10000+)  

but forget vacationing in  Oceanside. I always thought the best way to use points would be to buy at the resorts with the lowest mf per 1000 points (like Bali Hai, National Harbor, Panama City, etc) and use those points at the resorts with the lowest price (expressed in points.)  This Oceanside contract with an mf of $5/1000 comes close to the very low mf resorts.. so use those 1,000,000 points for vacations at Wyndham's legacy resorts, where a 2 bedroom is 154000 points or my favorite way to stretch points is to do 5 night  vacations, Sunday through Thursday in a two bedroom at the legacy resorts ( 90000 points.).. do 11 such "weeks" for you million points


----------



## lotus921v (Oct 4, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Any time you are renting ANY date and ANY timeshare, you could be taking it away from another owner.  This is my entire point.  So this could end up as a bone of contention for Marriott owners at some point, if Marriott does this as well.  I won't be a happy camper, but I at least will have had this lousy Wyndham experience to prepare me.
> 
> And by the way, we cannot add anyone to our reservations, no matter what resort and what date.  We are blocked from adding names.  They are automatically cancelled.  So this warning on the website doesn't cover those of us who cannot add any names to anything.
> 
> So many owners are having to deed back and give away timeshares that are worth less than zero after this change.  Your Marriott weeks will never be less than zero, and mine won't either.  I can always use them for great exchanges, and I honestly don't even rent Marriott, but I do rent Sheratons, which is now Marriott.  I don't expect Marriott to go down this rocky road. (That makes me want ice cream!)




That is craziness that you can’t add ANYBODY.  I would’ve expected they would’ve limited your guest reservations if anything


----------



## Jan M. (Oct 4, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> That is craziness that you can’t add ANYBODY.  I would’ve expected they would’ve limited your guest reservations if anything



Starting in late winter/early spring of 2021 continuing to the present owners Wyndham identified as engaging in commercial renting have been receiving a certified letter warning them there would be consequences if they continued to rent. Most owners who received a certified letter took the warning seriously.

Owners who decided not to need the warning and continued to rent stays got a second letter notifying them that their account was being blocked from adding guest names to any reservations for a period of 90 days. Although we have heard reports of 4-6 months. Also those owners upcoming reservations with guest names on them were cancelled.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 5, 2022)

pagosajim said:


> I think you're in the vast minority on this one.  Let it go...


Not from what I have heard from salespeople and managers who have tugbbs in their "Favorites" folder.    They find the Club Wyndham forum quite entertaining (and informative) over the years.  Yeah, a lot of them read here on TUG.


----------



## comicbookman (Oct 5, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Not from what I have heard from salespeople and managers who have tugbbs in their "Favorites" folder.    They find the Club Wyndham forum quite entertaining (and informative) over the years.  Yeah, a lot of them read here on TUG.



are you seriously using timeshare salesman as your source for information?


----------



## CO skier (Oct 5, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> are you seriously using timeshare salesman as your source for information?


No, my comment was that a number of timeshare salespeople I have met in updates are familiar with the TUG Club Wyndham forum.  Maybe they use it as a source of information.


----------



## comicbookman (Oct 6, 2022)

CO skier said:


> No, my comment was that a number of timeshare salespeople I have met in updates are familiar with the TUG Club Wyndham forum.  Maybe they use it as a source of information.





That is not what you said. You said the salesman's interpretation of what they have read on Tug and facebook as to what is or is not a minority opinion disagrees with  pagosajim said. That still sounds like you are using something a timeshare salesman said to bolster your point.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 6, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> That is not what you said. You said the salesman's interpretation of what they have read on Tug and facebook as to what is or is not a minority opinion disagrees with  pagosajim said. That still sounds like you are using something a timeshare salesman said to bolster your point.



Regardless of your interpretation, this is the exchange that was posted


CO skier said:


> I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago.





pagosajim said:


> I think you're in the vast minority on this one.  Let it go...




Minority? Salesman's interpretation?_  Anyone_, salesperson or otherwise, who has regularly read the TUG Wyndham forum over the past 10 years knows that my statement is absolutely true .


----------



## comicbookman (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Regardless of your interpretation, this is the exchange that was posted
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So if anyone Knows your statement is true (it is an opinion presented as fact) Then those that disagree must be lying?  That is not how opinions work.  You are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else.


----------



## pagosajim (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Regardless of your interpretation, this is the exchange that was posted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Boy did you convolute my response to you!

The minority opinion I suggest you are a part of was in response to your statement :


CO skier said:


> "I'm game, but I doubt you will _ever_ convince the other guy to stop posting about his defunct rental business experiences from 6 years ago. "



and had nothing at all to do with salesmen or anything of the sort.  It was the "I'm game..." part of your response that suggested you were willing to let this go, but doubted "the other guy" would do the same.  You continue to demonstrate that you're *not* game...

I see Ron almost exclusively posting about his rental experiences in response to provocation/invitation by a couple of personalities on this board.  I believe most here don't mind, and in fact, many even enjoy hearing of the experience _when prompted_.  If you don't like hearing about it, stop trying so hard to be "right", have the last word, and be so contentious overall.

Alternatively, make use of the ignore feature on this board.

Again, let it go...


----------



## ronparise (Oct 8, 2022)

pagosajim said:


> Boy did you convolute my response to you!
> 
> The minority opinion I suggest you are a part of was in response to your statement :
> 
> ...




Thanks for noticing. I started to post the same thing,  ie, My posts are generally responding to someone's question, or an "attack" but I didnt want to start another  tit for tat

But I will go back to my original post. I asked if there were any guesses as to the final bid on a particular ebay auction. That  $5/1000 mf contract sold for for $7000

Heres another to consider.  What do we think this will sell for 1,110,000 points deeded at Cypress Palms. MF on this contract is almost $8/1000

My guess is ... less than $1000 perhaps less than $100


----------



## MaryBella7 (Oct 9, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Thanks for noticing. I started to post the same thing,  ie, My posts are generally responding to someone's question, or an "attack" but I didnt want to start another  tit for tat
> 
> But I will go back to my original post. I asked if there were any guesses as to the final bid on a particular ebay auction. That  $5/1000 mf contract sold for for $7000
> 
> ...



I was giving away a property with 6 per 1000 MF -just pay cost of transfer and got no takers


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## bnoble (Oct 9, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Heres another to consider. What do we think this will sell for 1,110,000 points deeded at Cypress Palms. MF on this contract is almost $8/1000


I think that is a tough one. According to the MF spreadsheet, Cypress Palms is only a little bit higher than CWA. I suspect you could make the case that fees have been growing more slowly than CWA has, and the latter will pass it in the next year or two, which puts it back in the black for me. The resort has zero value for ARP---it's the third-best resort in Orlando. Maybe. Then you have the large-contract-penalty that narrows the addressable market. $8K/year carrying costs is no joke for a lot of people.

I think it _might_ sell. I think getting to $1,000 (including closing costs) would be the absolute upper bound, and would definitely take the under on that if I were a betting man.


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## CO skier (Oct 10, 2022)

ronparise said:


> But I will go back to my original post.


Thank goodness, and what a first.


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## scootr5 (Nov 1, 2022)

davidewells4 said:


> Hello new member here living in new york join the forum  to learn about hunting.



Welcome, but I don't think you will get much info about hunting here.


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## paxsarah (Nov 1, 2022)

I think our new hunting enthusiast friend falls under #5 in this list of forum spam techniques - the good thing being that TUG only allows editing for a couple days, so he'll probably fail.


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