# Parents have timeshares



## Bradb (Jan 12, 2013)

Situation.

My Parents have timeshares with Wyndham, 3 in Tennessee and 1 in Florida. 
Parents are both early 70s, father in poor health (maybe a year or 2 left).
Mom is in great health, she could easily go another 15 to 20 years.
They have about 550k points and are VIP (all titled in Mom and Dad's name).

They want rid of the maintenance fee, about $3100 yearly.

I’m 42, in solid financial shape and could easily afford the yearly maintenance fee, but I honestly don’t know if I want the timeshares for life.

Parents and I trust each other 100%, we have no issue with that, we are looking at the smartest way to move the assets to me if I want them or let them go when the time comes while delaying the decision to move them into my name as long as possible.

Our plan is to leave the timeshares in mom and dad’s name while I make the maintenance payments. I’ve had access to the timeshare online account for years. If I want a time share I just book it online and use a free VIP guest certificate. So using the time shares isn’t an issue even if they aren’t technically in my name. 

My goal is to delay moving the time shares into my name until both parents are gone. At that time I can make a decision on if I let the time shares go away with the estate or I want to transfer the time shares into my name (I am the executor of the their wills).

Is my plan solid, or am I missing something? 
Thanks
BradB


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 12, 2013)

Great plan - but I am NOT a probate person, tax accountant, or lawyer.

So, as a new user with access to 550K of Wyndham points and a GOLD VIP, the only thing you don't get as a GUEST, is the FREE NEWSPAPER and mid-week Clean & Tidy (fresh towels and the trash taken away). So get their Members Directory, several colored highlighters and START READING.

Check to see when your parents' USE YEAR is. Most are on the JAN-DEC calendar, but you need to know this - as points only have a shelf life of 12 months. Yes, you can SAVE them (sort of, but you have to know WHEN to do that).

First, start to plan 13 months in advance. Where is the resort in Florida? Are there any event weeks - Nascar, Bike Week, Snowbird time, theme parks? Are there regional things happening during the year in Tennessee? You have 4 different resorts and those points deeded there have ARP priviledges.

Next is read up on RARP -- it is in the Members Directory - the pretty picture book of all the resorts.

Then look at the NICE maps of all the resorts and regions of the USA. Are there any areas YOU want or like to visit. Go read the description of those resorts and make some notes on the time of year & HOW many points it would cost you to go there.

Now, you are ready to figure out how to book stuff and how to get it as CHEAP as possible. Start reading and using those highlighters. 

You should plan on reading that Member's Directory 3 times and each time with a different colored highlighter. There first time will be the hardest - it is NOT Greek - but it is the language of Wyndham. Wyndham really hired communication experts who minored in either law or technical writing. There is NO "they must have ment that other thing".  The second reading will be easier. And the 3rd reading  will be, "dang, she was right -- that means something totally different than what I thought".

Yes, we all learned about Wyndham from reading the Member's Directory. Even I, a math major and foreign language dunce, figured it out. The Sales staff and Member Services does not teach - most don't even own this product. And if they tell you that they are Platinum, they are full of it. 

Welcome to TUG!


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## Bradb (Jan 12, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Great plan - but I am NOT a probate person, tax accountant, or lawyer.
> 
> So, as a new user with access to 550K of Wyndham points and a GOLD VIP, the only thing you don't get as a GUEST, is the FREE NEWSPAPER and mid-week Clean & Tidy (fresh towels and the trash taken away). So get their Members Directory, several colored highlighters and START READING.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I should have stated I'm fully aware on how to use the points. The rules of when I can book and how far in advance etc. I have a habit of booking trips late and use the 60 day discounted points, yes it limits my options on booking, but I'm not a long term planner vacation wise. I also get a lot of free upgrades to nicer units with dad's VIP. For the last 5 years I've used the time shares more than mom and dad. I want to start paying as I have the $ while allowing them to use them as they still can until dad is unable, payback for me using them over the last several years.

I'm more looking for the "probate person, tax accountant, or lawyer" type opinions. I know laws can change and without a crystal ball no one can say for 100% what the laws will be in the future. I know at the current time I have the right to decline an inherited timeshare as long as I don't use it for personal gain after my parents both pass away.


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 12, 2013)

Why wait?  Just add your name to the ownership now.  It will save a lot of time later and you won't have to waste guest certificates when you use it.

Take title as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship and you won't even have to deal with probate.


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## Bradb (Jan 12, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Why wait?  Just add your name to the ownership now.  It will save a lot of time later and you won't have to waste guest certificates when you use it.
> 
> Take title as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship and you won't even have to deal with probate.



What if I don't want the timeshares in 10 or 15 years? They are willing to dead everything over tomorrow for $1 if I want, but I don't know if I want the timeshares for the rest of my life. People are paying to get rid of them now, I'm trying to use them for now with the ability to walk away at some point.

My idea is when both parents pass I should be allowed to "decline" the inherited timeshare with some paperwork and then the deeds would be put into the state "unclaimed property". I would have to have the estate pay the maintenance fee until the estate was closed, but at that point I could walk away for free once the estate is closed. 

Or I could put the time shares in my name and continue to use them once both parents have passed, but I want options if possible.

And we get 10 free guest certificates a year, so that's a freebie.


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 12, 2013)

Bradb said:


> What if I don't want the timeshares in 10 or 15 years? They are willing to dead everything over tomorrow for $1 if I want, but I don't know if I want the timeshares for the rest of my life. People are paying to get rid of them now, I'm trying to use them for now with the ability to walk away at some point.
> 
> My idea is when both parents pass I should be allowed to "decline" the inherited timeshare with some paperwork and then the deeds would be put into the state "unclaimed property". I would have to have the estate pay the maintenance fee until the estate was closed, but at that point I could walk away for free once the estate is closed.
> 
> ...



I gave you the answer and you completely missed it.

Look at my last message again and study it for a while.  Then, you will find the answer.  If you don't find it, I suggest you purchase the 8 DVD set of House.  The answer is there as well, but it will take you a lot longer to find it.


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## Bradb (Jan 12, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I gave you the answer and you completely missed it.
> 
> Look at my last message again and study it for a while.



I guess I'm still missing it.. the last thing I want to do is "title as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship"

In that scenario when mom and dad both pass the deed would automatically move into my name which is what I 100% do *NOT* want to happen. 

If the deed is automatically moved into my name there is a real possibility I might have to pay to get rid of the timeshares. I'm trying to leave myself an option to not take the property if that's what the situation dictates in 10 or 15 years.


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## lcml11 (Jan 12, 2013)

duplicate post


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## lcml11 (Jan 12, 2013)

Bradb said:


> What if I don't want the timeshares in 10 or 15 years? They are willing to dead everything over tomorrow for $1 if I want, but I don't know if I want the timeshares for the rest of my life. People are paying to get rid of them now, I'm trying to use them for now with the ability to walk away at some point.
> 
> My idea is when both parents pass I should be allowed to "decline" the inherited timeshare with some paperwork and then the deeds would be put into the state "unclaimed property". I would have to have the estate pay the maintenance fee until the estate was closed, but at that point I could walk away for free once the estate is closed.
> 
> ...



You are overthinking this by trying to game the system.  It will cost you much more in the long run.  A earlier poster gave you the right answer for the situation you are describing.  If your parents want to keep using the timeshares go with the three names on the deed with right of survorship.  If  they do not want to go to timeshares anymore without you, then take ownership now.

The nature of timeshares is not such that you can use at will and than walk away.  I am not saying that type of contract does not exist, I have one, but that is not the situation you are discribing here.

The worst case situation is that you are getting them for free and may have to pay to get rid of them if you timeshares do not go up in value.

Do not bet that puting them into unclaimed property is going to work in all states, if any at all.


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## Passepartout (Jan 12, 2013)

It's my understanding that in order to easily and without hassle abandon them, you need to put them into a trust. Alone. Then upon the demise of the owner(s) of the trust, make sure that there are no other assets in the trust to pay MF or anything else. THEN the executor/successor trustee can abandon them. 

This advice may not be valid in all states. Consult an attorney versed in the probate laws of YOUR state, and those where the TS is/are located to be sure.

The appropriate instructions should be kept with the wills of the owners so that the proper responses will be made at the time. It would be a shame for some unsuspecting family member to make a payment on a TS after it  becomes unnecessary. All that would accomplish is to make it evident to (Wyndham in this case) that funds are available to continue paying.

Jim Ricks


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## bjones9942 (Jan 12, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I gave you the answer and you completely missed it.
> 
> Look at my last message again and study it for a while.  Then, you will find the answer.  If you don't find it, I suggest you purchase the 8 DVD set of House.  The answer is there as well, but it will take you a lot longer to find it.



I'm missing the point as well.  Joint tenancy with rights of survivorship pass the property to the survivors automatically (see http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Right+of+Survivorship ).  If Bradb winds up not wanting the properties how does this help?  Frankly, I think he's got it right.  Pay his parents maintenance fees, use the weeks and decide to accept/reject during probate.


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## Bradb (Jan 12, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Do not bet that puting them into unclaimed property is going to work in all states, if any at all.



I would bet on this, it's the current law in all states. Any person has the right to refuse any inheritance. If I am the only potential benefactor (and I am), then the property in question is turned over to the state. This law protects anyone from inheriting someone else bad debts that are masked as assets during probate, it’s not a commonly used tool, but it is there for a reason.

This of it this way. How could Wyndham come after me in court if my name isn't on a single Wyndham document? They can't, and that's precisely the point. Estates are only left open a certain period of time, after that no more claims can be made. I am not gaming the system, I am using the current laws in place as a valid estate planning tool.




bjones9942 said:


> I'm missing the point as well.  Joint tenancy with rights of survivorship pass the property to the survivors automatically (see http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Right+of+Survivorship ).  If Bradb winds up not wanting the properties how does this help?  Frankly, I think he's got it right.  Pay his parents maintenance fees, use the weeks and decide to accept/reject during probate.



I think I do have it right… thank you for agreeing.

I do think I need to look at having the deeds put into a trust with only my parents as trustees. If I decide to take ownership of the properties during probate taking ownership of the trust will be much easier, and I have the same right to decline the inheritance of the trust if I don’t want the properties during probate. 

I think it's time to get an estate lawyer involved....


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## lcml11 (Jan 12, 2013)

Bradb said:


> I would bet on this, it's the current law in all states. Any person has the right to refuse any inheritance. If I am the only potential benefactor (and I am), then the property in question is turned over to the state. This law protects anyone from inheriting someone else bad debts that are masked as assets during probate, it’s not a commonly used tool, but it is there for a reason.
> 
> This of it this way. How could Wyndham come after me in court if my name isn't on a single Wyndham document? They can't, and that's precisely the point. Estates are only left open a certain period of time, after that no more claims can be made. I am not gaming the system, I am using the current laws in place as a valid estate planning tool.
> 
> ...



You are right on getting a estate lawyer involved.  I do not know about Wyndham because I took over the Wyndham properties.  However, Bluegreen went after me when I did not own Bluegreen.  The owner was my step father and I was not a benificary of that estate.  Due to there persistant and agressive methods (remember defense costs or the ability to impose defense cost is not an uncommon tactic), I had to go through an attorney to get that issue resolved.

By the way, I hope you are right in your case.


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## rhonda (Jan 13, 2013)

Bradb,

Sounds, to me, like you are on the right track.  

FWIW, I've recently lost both parents and am the Estate Administrator / Sucessor Trustee.  They were in their early 70s and death came suddenly (a few short months from very good health to gone).  Their 12yo Trust was updated just weeks before my father passed, but not all of the assets were transferred into that Trust.  Neither of their timeshares were referenced by the Trust in any form.

We kids kept one of the timeshares and refused the octher.  
Worldmark by Wyndham, the one we kept:  As admin, I kept the dues up to date (the first arrived just a few days after my mother passed).  When I had time to deal with that asset, two phone calls and one fax of paperwork to Wyndham was all it took to add my name as admin of that asset.  We'll eventually move this account entirely to one of my brothers.  For now, that brother uses the online access, books reservations and lists his name as guest.  I expect the eventual transfer to his name to be easy and to maintain all rights/status of my parent's original account (grandfathering, etc).
The other timeshare was emotionally difficult to dispose of but fairly straightforward wrt paperwork and process.  Gladly I was aware the asset was out there (it wasn't referenced in any of the estate paperwork) and was on watch for the first dues invoice.  When it arrived, I handed it to the Trust Atty who wrote a simple letter stating that it was unwanted; nothing owed (paid off and current on dues); with a request from the estate to simple cede the title back to resort.  It is possible that I could have written and sent that letter myself, but the Atty and I figured it might carry more weight if it came from his office. It worked.

Give big hugs to your folks and spend as much time as possible with them.  Cherish the time together. You won't regret it!


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## DAman (Jan 13, 2013)

*Another Thought*

Have you researched what these different timeshares are worth now-or how much it would cost you to get rid of them now?  That analysis is important.  If they have value that might make your decision easier. If they have no value, can they be given away for free?  That answer would get you closer to making your decision.

When you get lawyers involved there will be fees and the fees(both attorney fees and recording fees) may be more than it would cost to get rid of the timeshares-at least at the present time. 

Good luck on making your decision.


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## bogey21 (Jan 13, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> You are right on getting a estate lawyer involved.



I see so many responses suggesting getting a lawyer involved.  Lawyers cost money.  In my 78 years I have only used the services of a lawyer once.  It was to sue my Step Mother who forged a deed to steal a property from my Dad.  Incidentially, we won.  Otherwise I skip the "hire a lawyer" step and just research things myself.

George


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## csxjohn (Jan 13, 2013)

I also think you have it right.  Since you don't know if you want it in the future and can use it now, why put your name on the deed?

It has been suggested that anything of real value should be but in a trust and things like timeshares should be left out and then refused when willed to you.  Seeking the advice of an estate attorney in your state should not cost too much and will probably verify that you are right in your thinking.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jan 14, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> I see so many responses suggesting getting a lawyer involved.  Lawyers cost money.  In my 78 years I have only used the services of a lawyer once.  It was to sue my Step Mother who forged a deed to steal a property from my Dad.  Incidentially, we won.  Otherwise I skip the "hire a lawyer" step and just research things myself.
> 
> George



Any decent lawyer offers a free consultation. That consultation can point one in the right direction and sometimes you can find out all you need to know. It's free so it doesn't hurt.


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## durango5000 (Jan 23, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Why wait?  Just add your name to the ownership now.  It will save a lot of time later and you won't have to waste guest certificates when you use it.
> 
> Take title as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship and you won't even have to deal with probate.



Strongly disagree.

No law in the USA requires an heir to accept a bequest. See http://cooperelderlaw.com/case-study/trouble-timeshares/

Few people realize that when you are bequeathed an inheritance, you have the choice of acceptance or not. You can choose to refuse or disclaim an inheritance. In the case of timeshare property, this is a viable alternative to inheriting something you don’t want or can’t use​
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/06/22/business/bizcol.html

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=938775&postcount=11

In the case of an estate, any existing liability must be paid. Maintenance fees due as of the death date must be paid as a liability.

A person does not have to accept any inheritance if they do not want it. An estate can abandon a property such as a timeshare under most states' probate procedures. Abandonment is designed for assets with future liabilities greater than the value of the asset, such as annual maintenance fees. Ask a good probate lawyer about disclaimers and abandonment.

In effect, all states have a procedure by which the heirs file a disclaimer and the executor files a notice of abandonment in probate court and the estate can be settled. The exact procedures vary from state to state, but they do exist. 

Probate law is very much about protecting families and other heirs, not throw good money after bad. Everyone needs to find a competent lawyer to avoid the pitfall of paying that which is not a just debt.

Future maintenance fees are just future liabilities - the estate is only responsible for liabilities that existed at the time of death. If none of the heirs is willing to accept a portion of the inheritance, the executor can try to sell it or give it away -- after a reasonable effort to sell it or give it away with no takers, the estate can then abandon it.​
Now I suspect filing the notice of abandonment comes at a nominal cost which the estate has to pay for but ultimately that is the extent of it.

The notion that MFs must be paid in perpetuity and thus the estate is held in limbo until the MFs eat the estate is equally ludricous.

Finally, JTWROS isn't a panacea. In the timeshare I am getting rid of, the owner held it jointly with her husband with JTWROS.  She ended up paying recordig and transfer fees.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 23, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Why wait?  Just add your name to the ownership now.  It will save a lot of time later and you won't have to waste guest certificates when you use it.
> 
> Take title as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship and you won't even have to deal with probate.



Could not have said it better myself.  This is why all three of our grown kids (now all in their 30's) are on all of our ownerships.  It's not a burden to them because they love vacations.


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## Rent_Share (Jan 23, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I gave you the answer and you completely missed it.
> 
> Look at my last message again and study it for a while. Then, you will find the answer. If you don't find it, I suggest you purchase the 8 DVD set of House. The answer is there as well, but it will take you a lot longer to find it.


 
Unless I am missing something, your answer provide a solution to gain title without probate. The OP was asking how to AVOID TAKING title during the settlement of the estate process


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