# WM two-night minimum stay - Management response



## DaveNV (Jun 9, 2021)

So I saw on the WM website calendar that there are miscellaneous single nights available at many resorts.  These nights are unable to be booked, and so effectively are wasted.  More directly, I have an evening event booked in Las Vegas next month, and while looking for accommodations, I see that there is a lot of availability at the three LV locations, but again, a single night cannot be booked.  So WM forced me to look to other accommodations for the night.  This basically forces me to take my business elsewhere, which defeats the point of why I bought WorldMark in the first place.  I left "weeks" ownerships because I wanted short stays.  If I want a single night's stay somewhere, and I'm paying all the fees involved, including housekeeping charges, then it should not matter how long I book that location.  So weeks ago, I contacted WorldMark through their website, and sent this frustrated message:

_"WorldMark needs to know they are about to lose me as a customer. This asinine two-night minimum booking requirement absolutely ruins the point of being able to book short stays. If I'm already paying for housekeeping, why should it matter how many nights I stay at a resort? If I am doing a driving trip and need a one-night stay somewhere, WorldMark is forcing me to choose another lodging option. Stop this stupid two-night requirement!!"_

This morning I received this reply:

_"Hello David,

Thank you for contacting WorldMark the Club Owner Care, and I apologize for the delay in our response. We appreciate you taking the time to reach out to us.

I am sorry for any frustration you have experienced with this guideline change. While a one-night stay and a full week stay may not have a lot of differences on the surface, the overall impact to the resorts of the Club is our focus. One-night stays increase the amount of room cleanings that our housekeepers must accomplish due to the larger quantities of owners checking in and out of the resort. Maintaining our enhanced Vacation Ready cleanliness standards becomes an impossibility with this level of traffic. This is a big change for our owners and is a policy that will be under consistent review as the COVID-19 pandemic progresses. At this time there is no indication that this change is permanent. 

WorldMark has Implemented enhanced cleaning methods and standards to minimize any risk to our owners, and maximize safety. To fully implement and fulfill these protocols and follow mandatory social distancing measures, our housekeeping staff requires additional time and resources to service our units. As such, we have suspended the one-night booking option effective on September 3, 2020.

We understand this is a big change for many of our owners, but hope this will help keep our owners and employees safe. The one night stay suspension option will be reevaluated on a regular basis in order to best serve our owners throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. 

As a Club, we remain fully committed to deliver hospitality with heart to our valued owners. If you require immediate assistance please contact the Reservation Department at 1-800-457-0103 Monday - Friday 6:00am - 7:00pm PT and Saturday/Sunday 6:00am - 5:00pm PT.

Regards,              
Richard H.           
Owner Strategy Specialist – WorldMark the Club"_

I haven't replied, and doubt I will.  I understood the Covid cleaning thing during the lockdown, but now WM is pushing that the resorts are all open and ready to be booked.  They want us to act as Owners did before the pandemic.  Ok, so then I think the time has come for them to let Owners use their credits as before. The way I see it, is that I am unable to use what I am paying for.

I'm offering this information here for those who may have a longer history with WM, and who may have a better opinion on this.  What do you think?

Dave


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## RX8 (Jun 9, 2021)

The scary thing is that once a change has been made, even if they say it is temporary, is that it will eventually become the norm. Hopefully WM doesn’t end up where HGVC is with a three day minimum.


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## bnoble (Jun 9, 2021)

I'm inclined to give companies a pass on this sort of thing at the moment. The labor market is _very_ tight, and it might be hard to hire the necessary staff at a reasonable price point.

As the labor market cools down (and I expect it will) I would hope that most of these things will change. Hope springs eternal I guess.


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## magmue (Jun 9, 2021)

Maddening


> _One-night stays increase the amount of room cleanings that our housekeepers must accomplish due to the larger quantities of owners checking in and out of the resort. Maintaining our enhanced Vacation Ready cleanliness standards becomes an impossibility with this level of traffic_



It is an Impossibility only if you think of the housekeeping staff as a fixed and finite entity. I am willing to believe that WM's "enhanced" cleaning standards take more time than their previous standards. It's very hard to accept that the ~$80 housekeeping fee doesn't cover it and then some.


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## easyrider (Jun 9, 2021)

DaveNV said:


> What do you think?



It sucks !!! We were using bonus time to travel to other destinations where just spending the night was all we needed. The room is basically very clean when we leave. I don't get this bs about enhanced cleaning but I do know that at many resorts there is a shortage of workers which is likely the problem. 

The last bike ride we stayed two nights in Bend. It would have been better to stay a night in Bend and a night in Klamath Falls. 

Bill


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## geist1223 (Jun 9, 2021)

Keep sounding off to the WM BOD. When we stayed at Bison Ranch (a shared Resort between Wyndham and Worldmark) in May we found out Wyndham Members were still able to Book 1 night stays.


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## JohnPaul (Jun 9, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> Keep sounding off to the WM BOD. When we stayed at Bison Ranch (a shared Resort between Wyndham and Worldmark) in May we found out Wyndham Members were still able to Book 1 night stays.


 
That’s surprising to me as Wyndham also eliminated 1 night stays at Shell.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2021)

Is Worldmark/Wyndham renting out these single nights for cash? If so, that blows the whole story into smithereens.


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## sun starved Gayle (Jun 9, 2021)

I too am dismayed at this current no one night reservation policy. I live within  a couple hours driving distance of several resorts and we used to use a single night during bonus time a lot. Seeing single nights available at Seaside in an ocean front penthouse unit and not being able to reserve it just kills me.
I have to think that bonus time was one of the ways people who could not plan ahead could use their points.
 The one night reservations are so handy while traveling too. A couple of years ago on our way to Yosemite, we did one night in Klamath Falls, one night in Angel’s Camp on the front end of trip and one night in Bass Lake at the end. 
It makes no sense that Wyndham owners can still book one night stays and Worldmark owners cannot.


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## GrayFal (Jun 9, 2021)

Join the club

Bluegreen randomly stopped one night reservations as well 
You used to be able to search for one or two nights bonus time. 

When searching for one night night, you could book it but pay for two nights which pretty much everyone was okay with.
Especially Bluegreen who collected double the fee for a one night stay. 

One day two months ago they stopped allowing it and sneakily went in and changed the language on the website. 
And then pretended it was always like that. 


Points reservations have always been 2-14 days. Bonus time kicks in mostly 45 days out.


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## magmue (Jun 9, 2021)

> It makes no sense that Wyndham owners can still book one night stays and Worldmark owners cannot.


It makes the wrong kind of sense. It means that WM (and Shell) owners are second class citizens who don't get the same privileges in using points they have paid for as Wyndham owners do. 

Probably makes it easier for Wyndham owners to book some of the more popular WM resorts as well, if they can scoop up those lonely little one-nighters. Win-Win for Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

magmue said:


> It is an Impossibility only if you think of the housekeeping staff as a fixed and finite entity. I am willing to believe that WM's "enhanced" cleaning standards take more time than their previous standards. It's very hard to accept that the ~$80 housekeeping fee doesn't cover it and then some.


In the December 31, 2021 Treasurers Report, each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average.  So WorldMark is losing $47.27 on every one-night stay booked at the $80 minimum.  Except WorldMark does not "lose" any money.  That money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the maintenance fees of all members.  So for the most part, owners who do not book one-night stays are subsidizing owners who do book only single nights.  Is this fair to all owners?


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Is Worldmark/Wyndham renting out these single nights for cash? If so, that blows the whole story into smithereens.


No, because the nights are available and remain available online until expiration for owners to add to existing reservations, or to book when a contiguous night(s) become available.  If Wyndham was renting out these single nights, they would not appear on the WorldMark booking calendar.


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

DaveNV said:


> I'm offering this information here for those who may have a longer history with WM, and who may have a better opinion on this.  What do you think?


I think anyone who wants to quit WorldMark over the 2-night minimum is overreacting.  WorldMark is, after all, a timeshare not a hotel.

I liked to book one-nighters, but understand and agree with the point made upthread that the 2-night minimum is the result of a labor shortage in addition to enhanced Covid cleaning protocols.  The lifting of Covid mask mandates and other restrictions does not solve the labor shortage.  The 2-night minimum will be with us until well after the enhanced unemployment benefits end.


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## DaveNV (Jun 10, 2021)

CO skier said:


> I think anyone who wants to quit WorldMark over the 2-night minimum is overreacting.  WorldMark is, after all, a timeshare not a hotel.
> 
> I liked to book one-nighters, but understand and agree with the point made upthread that the 2-night minimum is the result of a labor shortage in addition to enhanced Covid cleaning protocols.  The lifting of Covid mask mandates and other restrictions does not solve the labor shortage.  The 2-night minimum will be with us until well after the enhanced unemployment benefits end.



Not the only reason I am considering giving up my ownership.  But booking single night stays _was_ a big selling point reason for me when I purchased.  Odd as it may sound, now that I am retired, I am increasingly disinterested in timeshare traveling, at least with WorldMark.  The locations I want to visit are in places where WorldMark has no facilities.  I really don't use the facilities as much more than a hotel, so the extra space, while appreciated, is rarely used.  For example: I have never used the oven in a timeshare kitchen. Not even once.  For me, WorldMark _IS _a kind of hotel, and it's my prerogative to use it that way. That was why I purchased it in the first place. 

As to WorldMark allowing single night booking being unfair to other owners?  I don't agree, because everyone would have the opportunity to book single nights, if they wanted to.  Just as those extra nights can be added to a longer booking, allowing someone to book the single nights and pay the stated housekeeping fee for it makes it available to someone who uses their credits for that night.  Arbitrarily removing it from the booking option makes it unfair to those who choose to book short stays. And by forcing those units to go unused, they are in a sense devaluing what Owners are paying for. 

If the labor shortage is the real (and "only") reason they aren't allowing the booking of single nights, that's one thing.  If it's a temporary thing that will definitely be removed at some point, that's also a thing.  But if it's just another way the use in WorldMark ownership is being chipped away from Owners, the value in the ownership is decreasing, and becomes less valuable for some to be paying for.  At this moment in time, I am one of those individuals.

Dave


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## geist1223 (Jun 10, 2021)

For over the past 20 years the average Worldmark stay has been only a little over 3 nights. If that is the average then there has to be a lot of 1 night and 2 night stays to account for all of the Members that stay a week or longer. It will be interesting to see what the average is for 2021 with no 1 night stays allowed.


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## presley (Jun 10, 2021)

I already gave up my WM a few years ago, but one of the biggest benefits to me when I owned it was the one night stays. Being able to take a car trip and stay a night at each stop was very appealing as was other things like staying one night before a cruise, which I never did, but it was nice to know it was an option. I can understand why you'd want to get rid of your WM if this was no longer an option. It is possible that it will change back at some point. The Covid era might be coming to an end for the most part, but it will still take a while for businesses to get back to normal or to find out what their new normal is going to be.


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## magmue (Jun 10, 2021)

> In the December 31, 2021 Treasurers Report, each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average.  So WorldMark is losing $47.27 on every one-night stay booked at the $80 minimum.


On the other hand, I have nearly 9,000 points expiring at the end of September. With travel still restricted in many ways, I will probably need to Rent those out to recover some of the MF paid for them. The two housekeeping tokens associated with those points will not transfer with the points. So assuming WM/Wyndham has their cost for unit-turnover built into the housekeeping tokens awarded per 10,000 points, that will boost their profit margin to the tune of $255.50. 
If I could book a single night and use an expiring HK token, I wouldn't have to rent the expiring points, and I wouldn't lose the expiring HK, and WM wouldn't lose anything, since I have already paid for the points and the built-in token.


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## easyrider (Jun 10, 2021)

CO skier said:


> In the December 31, 2021 Treasurers Report, each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average.  So WorldMark is losing $47.27 on every one-night stay booked at the $80 minimum.  Except WorldMark does not "lose" any money.  That money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the maintenance fees of all members.  So for the most part, owners who do not book one-night stays are subsidizing owners who do book only single nights.  Is this fair to all owners?



How are they figuring costs ? It sounds like bs because there is no way it cost $80 to clean a room. They usually only take 90 minutes or less to do a room that has been rented for a week.

Bill


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## bogey21 (Jun 10, 2021)

My biggest pet peeve are the changes made to Programs after we buy.  Inevitably they are pro Management and anti Owners...

George


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> For over the past 20 years the average Worldmark stay has been only a little over 3 nights. If that is the average then there has to be a lot of 1 night and 2 night stays to account for all of the Members that stay a week or longer. It will be interesting to see what the average is for 2021 with no 1 night stays allowed.


Why does the average stay matter to any WM member?  Suspending one-night stays would increase the average stay ever-so-slightly.  So what?


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

magmue said:


> So assuming WM/Wyndham has their cost for unit-turnover built into the housekeeping tokens awarded per 10,000 points, that will boost their profit margin to the tune of $255.50.


Sorry, you are very confused about Housekeeping cost accounting.  The numbers represent only the total housekeeping costs divided by the number of unit turns.  If any owner does not use a HK token, there is no monetary value associated with it for accounting purposes; it just expires.


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

easyrider said:


> How are they figuring costs ? It sounds like bs because there is no way it cost $80 to clean a room. They usually only take 90 minutes or less to do a room that has been rented for a week.
> 
> Bill


It is a VERY simple calculation for any owner who might want to look it up in the Treasurers Reports instead of staying uniformed and reverting to unfounded "bs" statements.

From the most recent Treasurers Report:
Housekeeping Expense:  $39,117,560
+ Laundry Expense  $5,198,950
Equals $44,316,510
Divided by 346,911 total turns in 2020
Equals $127.75 per turn

These are the straightforward facts that any accountant (or member) could understand.

Covid-19 in 2020 definitely skewed the number higher, but even before Covid-19, the average HK cost per turn was $99.31.  (See the December 31, 2019 Treasurers Report for the details.)


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## geist1223 (Jun 10, 2021)

It


CO skier said:


> Why does the average stay matter to any WM member?  Suspending one-night stays would increase the average stay ever-so-slightly.  So what?



If the average LOS goes up a substantial amount in 2021 when 1 night stays were not allowed this is a rough way to estimate what % of stays are 1 night stays. Which shows had badly this decision by the BOD was against the interest of many members.


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## easyrider (Jun 10, 2021)

CO skier said:


> It is a VERY simple calculation for any owner who might want to look it up in the Treasurers Reports instead of staying uniformed and reverting to unfounded "bs" statements.
> 
> From the most recent Treasurers Report:
> Housekeeping Expense:  $39,117,560
> ...



I wonder what is included in the housekeeping expense ? It has to be more than the wage and benefit package because there is no way it takes more than 90 minutes to clean a room. My bet is there is a Wyndham management cost that is more than the actual housekeeping wage.

Thanks for providing the numbers. 

Bill


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> If the average LOS goes up a substantial amount in 2021 when 1 night stays were not allowed this is a rough way to estimate what % of stays are 1 night stays. Which shows had badly this decision by the BOD was against the interest of many members.


... or how effective the policy was to help owners check-in at a reasonable hour.


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## CO skier (Jun 10, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I wonder what is included in the housekeeping expense ?


The housekeeping expense is what it is.  Owners pay for it through their maintenance fees.  If the expense for one turn is more than the revenue from one night, then someone (all the other owners) have to pay extra to subsidize.  Very simple accounting and math.


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## easyrider (Jun 11, 2021)

CO skier said:


> The housekeeping expense is what it is.  Owners pay for it through their maintenance fees.  If the expense for one turn is more than the revenue from one night, then someone (all the other owners) have to pay extra to subsidize.  Very simple accounting and math.



Sure but Wyndham isn't doing anything for cost. They likely set a cost for the time it takes to clean a room. The average amount of time it takes to clean a room is 20 - 30 minutes. There is no way this cost $127 a room without adding management costs and marking up room amenities like spice, coffee and soaps to the workers wage and benefit package. 

Bonus time has been part of the Worldmark deal from the get go. Every owner knows this. If it cost more it cost more and the mf's make up the difference. That is the contract. It's that simple.

Bill


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## CO skier (Jun 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Bonus time has been part of the Worldmark deal from the get go. Every owner knows this. If it cost more it cost more and the mf's make up the difference. That is the contract. It's that simple.


Bonus Time is in the agreement

"*1.7 Bonus Time;* the consecutive days during which a Member has use rights in a Unit under a reservation made according to the Rules in addition to such Member's Vacation Credit Use(s) and for which the specified fee is paid.  The Bonus Time net fees shall accrue to the benefit of Club."

There is nothing in the agreement about a one night minimum, so that may be changed (and changed back) by the BOD if it is in the best interest of the Club.


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## JohnPaul (Jun 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Sure but Wyndham isn't doing anything for cost. They likely set a cost for the time it takes to clean a room. The average amount of time it takes to clean a room is 20 - 30 minutes. There is no way this cost $127 a room without adding management costs and marking up room amenities like spice, coffee and soaps to the workers wage and benefit package.
> Bill



I don’t ever want to stay in a unit you’ve cleaned!!!

20 - 30 minutes to make 3 beds, clean 2 bathrooms and a kitchen, dust, vacuum and tidy???

You must be amazing!!!!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 11, 2021)

Do away with the spices and bring back nightly stays?


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## easyrider (Jun 11, 2021)

JohnPaul said:


> You must be amazing!!!!



I have been called worse so thank you. Its nice to be recognized occasionally.

John, on average it takes one professional housekeeper 45 - 60 minutes to do a large room and 20- 30 minutes for a studio even with Covid regs. You can probably look this up on google. 

For a one night stay, as in bonus time, there isn't much to clean at a WM. Most people have started the dishwasher and have kept the room tiddy.

Bill


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## magmue (Jun 12, 2021)

> The housekeeping expense is what it is.


Actually, no. 

I come from the world of healthcare, and am very familiar with all the creative ways organizations use to shift expenses from one cost center to another. That line item in the Treasurer's Report specifying that "_each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average_" almost certainly includes salaries for multiple layers of management above Housekeeping, all the way up to the CEO's office. Plus rent for office space for those various "managers" charged to departments under them in whatever way pencils out best for the organization. The cost assignments can be quite arbitrary - and who knows enough about the budget and line items to push back?


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## CO skier (Jun 13, 2021)

magmue said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> I come from the world of healthcare, and am very familiar with all the creative ways organizations use to shift expenses from one cost center to another. That line item in the Treasurer's Report specifying that "_each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average_" almost certainly includes salaries for multiple layers of management above Housekeeping, all the way up to the CEO's office.


Whatever you may know about healthcare accounting does not apply to WorldMark accounting.  Wyndham collects a management fee from WorldMark revenue according to a contract and that is it.  That management fee is the only WorldMark dollars that contribute to corporate salaries.

The housekeeping expenses are what they are, and that is it.  If you think you know better, any owner may arrange to inspect the books of the Club (or have a specific question such as housekeeping expenses answered) by contacting the Wyndham VP for Owner Relations.

Or contact the Wyndham Treasurer directly.  If the email follows the Wyndham email naming convention then the Treasurers email is:  jodi.rodgers@wyn.com

Let us know what you learn.


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## easyrider (Jun 13, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Whatever you may know about healthcare accounting does not apply to WorldMark accounting.  Wyndham collects a management fee from WorldMark revenue according to a contract and that is it.  That management fee is the only WorldMark dollars that contribute to corporate salaries.
> 
> The housekeeping expenses are what they are, and that is it.  If you think you know better, any owner may arrange to inspect the books of the Club (or have a specific question such as housekeeping expenses answered) by contacting the Wyndham VP for Owner Relations.
> 
> ...



Wyndham doesn't collect a management fee. They bill Worldmark a management fee based on a budget. Regarding housekeeping costs this cost is certainly not just the cost of cleaning a room. Wyndham receives a profit for every thing they do. All companies do. 

The idea that it isn't fair to members that don't use bonus time is ignorant of the fact that all members can use bonus time. The two night minimum for bonus time being put in place only makes sense because of covid. Now that covid is winding down, Wyndham needs to hire more housekeepers and charge Worldmark more for housekeeping if they need to.

Bill


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 18, 2021)

bnoble said:


> I'm inclined to give companies a pass on this sort of thing at the moment. The labor market is _very_ tight, and it might be hard to hire the necessary staff at a reasonable price point.
> 
> As the labor market cools down (and I expect it will) I would hope that most of these things will change. Hope springs eternal I guess.



The problem is that they aren't willing to hire staff at a reasonable price point. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with the cost of living. A reasonable minimum wage got shot down by the senate last winter.


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## CO skier (Jun 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Wyndham doesn't collect a management fee.


Here is the definition of the _Fee_ Wyndham collects according to the _Management_ Agreement:

6.1  *Fee*.  Manager shall receive a monthly compensation equal to one-twelfth (1/12th) of the lesser of (a) fifteen percent (15%) of the budgeted annual expenses and reserves of the Club, exclusive of Manager’s Fee, or (b) the projected amount remaining after the Club pays or adequately provides for its expenses and reserves, which amount shall be adjusted as each year passes …


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## CO skier (Jun 18, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> The problem is that they aren't willing to hire staff at a reasonable price point. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with the cost of living. A reasonable minimum wage got shot down by the senate last winter.


Are you implying that Wyndham pays housekeepers only the legislated minimum wage?

The Colorado minimum wage is $12/hour.  I am staying at the WM Steamboat Springs resort.  I looked online, and the starting wages for houskeeping jobs at the Wyndham resort are $15-17/hour + a retention bonus and maybe some benefits.  Starting wage at the McDonald's in town is $14/hour.  There are a number of businesses in downtown Steamboat Springs with jobs starting at $15/hour.

I was recently in San Diego where the signs in the business windows were for jobs starting at $20/hour.

The national labor market, not Congress is setting the "true" minimum wage.


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## easyrider (Jun 18, 2021)

CO skier said:


> The national labor market, not Congress is setting the "true" minimum wage.



This is true and many resorts will be playing catch up because workers will go where hey are paid better. Last May a resort in Sun River was offering housekeepers $25 per hour plus a signing bonus. The Worldmark we used for our trip was in Bend and we spoke to a server at the resort restaurant who said she left a job that paid really well to work for at this WM resort. They only had two people running the entire restaurant in May. 

Bill


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 18, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Are you implying that Wyndham pays housekeepers only the legislated minimum wage?
> 
> The Colorado minimum wage is $12/hour.  I am staying at the WM Steamboat Springs resort.  I looked online, and the starting wages for houskeeping jobs at the Wyndham resort are $15-17/hour + a retention bonus and maybe some benefits.  Starting wage at the McDonald's in town is $14/hour.  There are a number of businesses in downtown Steamboat Springs with jobs starting at $15/hour.
> 
> ...



According to Indeed, the average housekeeping wage is $11.53 an hour in Orlando, which is what I've seen myself. Two people working 40 hours per week on that wage can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment in the surrounding area. FL is raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour for that reason. Most people voted yes to raise the minimum wage in FL to $15 an hour. I've never been to CO, so I can't speak for what it's like there, but $11.53 an hour isn't livable in Orlando so there is a labor shortage.


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## CO skier (Jun 19, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> According to Indeed, the average housekeeping wage is $11.53 an hour in Orlando,


And that is where I think you go wrong -- automatically thinking $11.53/hour applies to _every_ (not just the average) housekeeping job in Orlando (and does that number include benefits?)  Show us the ads where Wyndham is offering only $12/hour for a housekeeper in Orlando.

$15/hour is not a living wage most places, and $20/hour certainly is not a living wage in San Diego, but that is a different discussion and shows how far behind the curve and meaningless legislated minimum wage laws are.


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## wjappraise (Jun 19, 2021)

CO skier said:


> And that is where I think you go wrong -- automatically thinking $11.53/hour applies to _every_ (not just the average) housekeeping job in Orlando (and does that number include benefits?) Show us the ads where Wyndham is offering only $12/hour for a housekeeper in Orlando.
> 
> $15/hour is not a living wage most places, and $20/hour certainly is not a living wage in San Diego, but that is a different discussion and shows how far behind the curve and meaningless legislated minimum wage laws are.



I agree with you. 

Those of us who have employees know that the pay rate is only part of total cost. My experience has been that employer taxes, unemployment (both federal and state) as well as worker’s comp costs will add another 30-40% on top of that. Then if there are benefits such as health insurance and pension, it can quickly double the actual cost for labor over the hourly rate. 

It’s not cheap to have employees. 

Then for housekeeping costs don’t forget to add uniforms, cleaning supplies, cleaning tools and equipment, training, supervisors, communication devices, transportation, etc. And then add in the cost of laundry services for all the sheets and towels and cleaning cloths. 

So the cost for turning a room after one night is not a negligible expense. 

Wes.


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## DaveNV (Jun 19, 2021)

So if the cost of cleaning the room is the bottom line reason for not allowing a one night stay, why not add a small surcharge to the room charge? If someone wants to stay only one night, add a reasonable fee to the one-night charge.  They could even market it as "Discounts for multiple night stays."

I started this thread.  And part of my beef with what WorldMark is telling me is that I own credits that are marketed as a per-night charge, where a weekend night costs more than a weeknight.  Why should that matter?  By the logic presented in this thread by those much smarter than me, if the costs are so fixed, then weekends shouldn't cost any more than weekdays.  All of it seems really fluid and easily manipulated.  I seriously doubt they pay housekeepers more to work weekends.  So why charge more credits for weekends, other than as a way to make owners pay more for staying during the nights they'd most likely want to use them?

Dave


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## Eric B (Jun 19, 2021)

DaveNV said:


> if the costs are so fixed, then weekends shouldn't cost any more than weekdays.



I don't think the point costs for the specific days are really set based on cost alone, but would be better thought of as prices that are set based on supply and demand.  There's an undeniably higher demand for weekends than for weekdays, so the price is set higher.



DaveNV said:


> why charge more credits for weekends, other than as a way to make owners pay more for staying during the nights they'd most likely want to use them?



This is exactly the point I would emphasize.  If they didn't charge more for the weekends, the resorts would wind up predominantly occupied only on the weekends.  The pricing, which probably predated Wyndham taking over, is part of capacity or supply and demand management.


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## DaveNV (Jun 19, 2021)

Eric B said:


> This is exactly the point I would emphasize.  If they didn't charge more for the weekends, the resorts would wind up predominantly occupied only on the weekends.  The pricing, which probably predated Wyndham taking over, is part of capacity or supply and demand management.



But if most reservations are made at 13 months, (as the best resorts seem to book up quickly), and they have a seven-night requirement, the resorts would still be booked out.  Retirees and whoever has time during the weekdays would likely take those stray weekdays that may be available.  If it's really about supply and demand, people will book what is available, regardless of which day of the week it is. I think they charge more for weekends because they CAN, not because it costs any more to operate the resort on those days.  With regards to housekeeping charges, the day of the week shouldn't matter.

Dave


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## CO skier (Jun 20, 2021)

DaveNV said:


> But if most reservations are made at 13 months,


Only 6-7% of reservations are booked 13 months ahead.  More than 50% of reservations are booked 60 days or less ahead.  You can see this in a chart from the 2019 4th quarter management report available online.



DaveNV said:


> With regards to housekeeping charges, the day of the week shouldn't matter.


And it does not matter.  Book a Fri. and Sat. stay in a 1 bedroom and the housekeeping charge is $102.  Book a 1 bedroom Wed. and Thurs. stay and the housekeeping charge is $102.



DaveNV said:


> I think they charge more for weekends because they CAN, not because it costs any more to operate the resort on those days.


This is true, of course.  The question is, "So what?"

I think you are not looking at the big picture.  Credit allocations are set when resorts are introduced into the WorldMark program.  The allocations have no direct relation to how much that particular resort costs to operate.  In fact, revenue from newer resorts with higher credit allocations per week (Stablewood Springs and Marble Falls in Texas, for example) are subsidizing resorts with lower credit allocations per week, but that have costs higher than the revenue generated by the allocated credits (the serious bank collapse at Gleneden is a prime example).

The credit allocations are divided into seasons with Red Season as the highest cost.  White and Blue seasons have lower credit allocations to encourage off-season use.  Weekly credit allocations are further divided with weekends having almost twice the cost of mid-week nights.  This is to encourage mid-week use, as mentioned in previous posts.  (It works with me as I avoid Friday and Saturday nights as much as possible.)

Inventory Specials are offered, mostly for mid-week nights, as a cash option to further encourage mid-week usage.

All this is just the way WorldMark was created and is run.


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## bbodb1 (Jun 20, 2021)

I may have missed this point in the thread, but why doesn't WorldMark view unused nights as a lost opportunity to interact with a customer?  
It sounds as if WorldMark is satisfied to have this increasing number of short duration vacancies....that doesn't make sense either...


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2021)

In HGVC, Friday-Sunday nights cost twice as much in points as Monday-Thursday nights.
In Vistana, Thursday and Sunday nights cost ~50% more than Monday-Wednesday and Friday and Saturday are about double.
In Club Wyndham, it varies a bit more, but Friday and Saturday are between 50% more and double the point cost of Sunday through Thursday.
I don't have any experience with Marriott, Hyatt, or HIVC, but would not be surprised if weekends cost more there than weekdays.  It seems as though that's an industry standard.  The odd thing is the larger variability in the ratios in Club Wyndham and WorldMark, although the others do have some oddities in them as well.


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## CO skier (Jun 20, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> It sounds as if WorldMark is satisfied to have this increasing number of short duration vacancies....


Nights that expire unused are entirely common in WorldMark.  What about when an entire week expires unused?  That was seven one-night stays that could have been booked (prior to the change).  Really no different than 7 scattered, stand alone nights in terms of vacancies.

Take a look at the 4-month booking calender for 2 bedroom units at WM Rancho Vistoso.  5+ units will expire unoccupied every day for the next months.  The comparatively few, scattered single nights are nothing by comparison.


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## bbodb1 (Jun 20, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Nights that expire unused are entirely common in WorldMark.  What about when an entire week expires unused?  That was seven one-night stays that could have been booked (prior to the change).  Really no different than 7 scattered, stand alone nights in terms of vacancies.
> 
> Take a look at the 4-month booking calender for 2 bedroom units at WM Rancho Vistoso.  5+ units will expire unoccupied every day for the next months.  The comparatively few, scattered single nights are nothing by comparison.


Neither is good to be sure.  If I ran a business, I would want my sales at the max capacity I can handle and in WorldMark's case, every unused night means one less customer to try and sell them something.  This is not utilizing WorldMark's assets to their fullest potential - which I would think would be a goal of management.


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## CO skier (Jun 20, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Neither is good to be sure.  If I ran a business, I would want my sales at the max capacity I can handle and in WorldMark's case, every unused night means one less customer to try and sell them something.  This is not utilizing WorldMark's assets to their fullest potential - which I would think would be a goal of management.


There are different departments within Wyndham with sometimes competing interests.

Only 1 of the five resorts I frequent has a sales presence.  When I arrive at the one with a parking pass desk, I tell them I have been to dozens of updates over the years and am a terrible sales prospect.  It does not phase them, because they are the marketing department and their job is only to sign me up, not sell me anything.

The two-night minimum is the operations department dealing with a  labor shortage.  How it might affect sales is none of their concern.  Plus, owners booking the one-nighters would use one of the cash options to avoid a housekeeping charge.  If they can get the reservations they need with cash plus the credits they already own, why would they buy more?  Additionally, checking-in at 4 p.m. and checking-out at 10 a.m. the next morning leaves no time for an update.  The two-night minimum likely has little to no effect on sales.


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## easyrider (Jun 22, 2021)

I actually spoke with Worldmark customer care today. We did talk about the 2 night minimum. Why this was put into place was because of covid . In the beginning of covid the housekeepers had to wait 24 hours before entering the unoccupied room. Currently it is 1 to 2 hours after a guest checks out depending on what the state and fed has in place. I asked if Club Wyndham has the same 2 night minimum and was told yes depending on location. I was told all Worldmarks are fully staffed so it isn't a labor shortage. There is no word on when this policy will change as of today.

We also talked about Moab. The resort is totally built and the reason it is open is because they haven't been able to furnish the rooms because of shortages. There is no furniture. 

Bill


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## CO skier (Jun 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I was told all Worldmarks are fully staffed so it isn't a labor shortage.


I am sure the Customer Care agents are trained to be comforting and reassuring.

Think about that statement for 10 seconds.  Really?  All WorldMarks are fully staffed?  This is never the case, and post-Covid is worse.

Think about that statement for 20 seconds more.  Why are there so many Housekeepers Wanted online ads at so many WorldMark resorts?  I doubt that it is because the resorts are fully staffed.


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## easyrider (Jun 23, 2021)

CO skier said:


> I am sure the Customer Care agents are trained to be comforting and reassuring.
> 
> Think about that statement for 10 seconds.  Really?  All WorldMarks are fully staffed?  This is never the case, and post-Covid is worse.
> 
> Think about that statement for 20 seconds more.  Why are there so many Housekeepers Wanted online ads at so many WorldMark resorts?  I doubt that it is because the resorts are fully staffed.



Where are these help wanted adds for WM ? Our next WM trip is a few units at the beach. There are zero vacancies in all of the units for the entire summer. Think about that, zero vacancies.

Bill


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## CO skier (Jun 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Where are these help wanted adds for WM ?


On the internet.

Here is a link for housekeeper positions at the resort where I am staying at WM Steamboat Springs -- one of the larger resorts.  (I did not experience any delay in checking-in at 5 p.m. on a Sunday.  Not sure if that means anything for a Fri. or Sat. check-in.)





__





						Jobs
					





					www.google.com
				




Earlier in this thread, I found Wyndham ads for housekeepers in Orlando.  Pick most any WorldMark resort of size, and you can probably find housekeeper ads online.


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## CO skier (Jun 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> There are zero vacancies in all of the units for the entire summer. Think about that, zero vacancies.


Could a shortage of housekeepers be the reason why there are many complaints about not being able to check-in to WM Seaside until 7 p.m. or later?   Think about that.  Zero vacancies, a shortage of housekeepers.  What does that equal?  Late, sometimes very late check-in.

I bet if you looked online, Wyndham is advertising for housekeeper positions at WM Seaside.


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## HudsHut (Jun 23, 2021)

@easyride Thanks for the update on Moab - many have been wondering. I wrote to ask if they had a projected opening date and received a reply with no information.


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## easyrider (Jun 23, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Could a shortage of housekeepers be the reason why there are many complaints about not being able to check-in to WM Seaside until 7 p.m. or later?   Think about that.  Zero vacancies, a shortage of housekeepers.  What does that equal?  Late, sometimes very late check-in.
> 
> I bet if you looked online, Wyndham is advertising for housekeeper positions at WM Seaside.



Do realize there is a difference between cleaning a room and disinfecting a room ? Each state's health department sets guidelines for transient lodging which often includes a time lapse between when a room is vacated and the start of cleaning. My point is that this is what the customer care person said and I think she is correct. I would bet that as soon as Covid rules have tapered off the 1 night bonus time will be back.

Why wouldn't  Wyndham advertise for job openings ? Many of the positions needing to be filled are the type that have a large employee turnover because of the pay scale. 

Bill


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## Ty1on (Jun 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Where are these help wanted adds for WM ? Our next WM trip is a few units at the beach. There are zero vacancies in all of the units for the entire summer. Think about that, zero vacancies.
> 
> Bill



Sorry, but this is a bit of a non-sequitur argument....You can independently by at 100% occupancy and understaffed.


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## j.d. (Jun 23, 2021)

At Worldmark Oceanside there is a HUGH sign looking for workers! Instead of checking in at 4:00 pm i was informed the room was not ready, i drove to In-In-Out Burger and purchased dinner!
I drove back to Worldmark Oceanside and got out of the vehicle and went to the pool! I was able to check in at 5:40pm! I am NOT upset but i asked the front desk that maybe- in the future just email me what time is BEST! I do not mind checking in later if that would make check in easier! The 10:00 oclock check out needs to go back to NooN!


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## tschwa2 (Jun 23, 2021)

j.d. said:


> I am NOT upset but i asked the front desk that maybe- in the future just email me what time is BEST! I do not mind checking in later if that would make check in easier! The 10:00 oclock check out needs to go back to NooN!


I've always thought resorts should have 1/3-1/4 of the units with check in 6pm and check out noon and perhaps even some 3pm check in and 9 am check out times.


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## easyrider (Jun 23, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Sorry, but this is a bit of a non-sequitur argument....You can independently by at 100% occupancy and understaffed.



I agree that when you are at 100% occupancy you could be understaffed but that statement doesn't equate to being anything more than a generalization because it proves or disproves nothing.  

My point is they are at 100% occupancy and getting the rooms ready for new guests each day because they have enough employees to do so which would mean they could be understaffed but apparently getting the job done each day. Each labor market is different so undoubtedly there are some resorts that may be understaffed while others not so much. 

Bill


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## sparty (Jun 26, 2021)

Not sure why nobody talks about the late check in and late check out option. I've used it a couple times. To me it is fantastic that Worldmark  offers it.  I wish all the resorts would offer  it, but so far it's been limited.. I've used it at Seaside.


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## rhonda (Jun 26, 2021)

sparty said:


> Not sure why nobody talks about the late check in and late check out option. I've used it a couple times. To me it is fantastic that Worldmark  offers it.  I wish all the resorts would offer  it, but so far it's been limited.. I've used it at Seaside.


I hadn't heard of it!  Sure could have used it on our last stay at Oceanside.  We checked in late (~9p) and were never offered a late checkout.  Meeting the 10a checkout was a beast and I left behind a new'ish led flashlight ... I know exactly where I left it (magnetically attached to the hinge of the murphy bed; impossible to miss when closing the murphy) but it wasn't turned into the Lost'n'Found.  We were really scrambling to be out by 10a.  Ugh.  Sigh.


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## troy12n (Jul 18, 2021)

You guys should feel lucky that WM only did this in May of this year. Wyndham instituted the "no 1 day bookings" policy in September of 2020 for us... and they have not allowed checkout past 10am (it's been 10am for years, but would allow "late checkout") since the Pandemic started and they "re-opened"


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## CO skier (Jul 18, 2021)

rhonda said:


> I hadn't heard of it!  Sure could have used it on our last stay at Oceanside.


Late check-in/late checkout is not a Club policy.  It is resort specific, and Seaside is the only resort that offers it, afaik.  You would need to call ahead so that your reservation could be scheduled for late arrival.


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## CO skier (Jul 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> You guys should feel lucky that WM only did this in May of this year. Wyndham instituted the "no 1 day bookings" policy in September of 2020 for us... and they have not allowed checkout past 10am (it's been 10am for years, but would allow "late checkout") since the Pandemic started and they "re-opened"


The two-night minimum policy for WorldMark reservations began on September 3, 2020.  Any one-night reservations booked before that date would be honored, so it is possible that there are some grandfathered one-night reservations still out there.


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## troy12n (Jul 18, 2021)

CO skier said:


> The two-night minimum policy for WorldMark reservations began on September 3, 2020.  Any one-night reservations booked before that date would be honored, so it is possible that there are some grandfathered one-night reservations still out there.



Ok, thats about the same time it started for us, I guess I misunderstood some of the timings in other posts


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## smmora (Jul 27, 2021)

CO skier said:


> It is a VERY simple calculation for any owner who might want to look it up in the Treasurers Reports instead of staying uniformed and reverting to unfounded "bs" statements.
> 
> From the most recent Treasurers Report:
> Housekeeping Expense:  $39,117,560
> ...


Wouldn't the per room charge be less because housekeeping and laundry would apply to all cleaning at the resort.
Lobby, hallways, pools, gaming areas, garages, etc and each resort has different common areas


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## magmue (Jul 27, 2021)

> Wouldn't the per room charge be less because housekeeping and laundry would apply to all cleaning at the resort.


Great point, illustrating my earlier comment about cost centers, and how things can be shuffled to craft a misleading narrative.


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## Icc5 (Jul 27, 2021)

The question I have is without allowing the one day stays are the points being sold matching the time available?
I thought the resorts or company as a whole could not sell more points then rooms.  It used to be in weeks they could only sell 50 weeks times the # of units and those two extra weeks were used for remodels,etc.
How does that work with points and when you eliminate some days?
Bart


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## CO skier (Jul 27, 2021)

Icc5 said:


> The question I have is without allowing the one day stays are the points being sold matching the time available?
> I thought the resorts or company as a whole could not sell more points then rooms.  It used to be in weeks they could only sell 50 weeks times the # of units and those two extra weeks were used for remodels,etc.
> How does that work with points and when you eliminate some days?
> Bart


Your question was answered in post #49.









						WM two-night minimum stay - Management response
					

If the average LOS goes up a substantial amount in 2021 when 1 night stays were not allowed this is a rough way to estimate what % of stays are 1 night stays. Which shows had badly this decision by the BOD was against the interest of many members.  ... or how effective the policy was to help...




					tugbbs.com


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## CO skier (Jul 27, 2021)

smmora said:


> Wouldn't the per room charge be less because housekeeping and laundry would apply to all cleaning at the resort.
> Lobby, hallways, pools, gaming areas, garages, etc and each resort has different common areas


No, because _every_ reservation shares in the _total_ cost of housekeeping.


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## samara64 (Jul 30, 2021)

CO skier said:


> Nights that expire unused are entirely common in WorldMark.  What about when an entire week expires unused?  That was seven one-night stays that could have been booked (prior to the change).  Really no different than 7 scattered, stand alone nights in terms of vacancies.
> 
> Take a look at the 4-month booking calender for 2 bedroom units at WM Rancho Vistoso.  5+ units will expire unoccupied every day for the next months.  The comparatively few, scattered single nights are nothing by comparison.




I fully understand that but there is a difference if they expired because there is no demand for the rooms or because of some dumb rules.


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## samara64 (Jul 30, 2021)

Rooms offline is an issue too.

I just came back from a Worldmark stay where I had 2 reservations. Sun-Tuesday and Tuesday to Friday all in a 3BR. As I never been to the resort, I did it this way so if I do not like the place, I can cancel the last 3 days and we had other cancelable reservations.

I liked the resort and tried to switch the last 3 days to BT. That was 9PM on Sunday after VP has closed. After canceling, I tried to rebook same room and it says room off line on Tuesday but is ok for Wed-Friday. I went ahead and booked the last 2 days but now I am missing a day in the middle of reservation. I figured I will go to a Marriott Hotel as it was close by and I have lots of certificates due to COVID.

Next morning I called Owner Care and explained. They said to go to resort manager and ask to joint he reservations which I did. They filled out a paper to cover my stay cost for the Tuesday night and faxed it to Owner Care to charge my CC. So I was able to stay in same room for the entire time.

Resort manager said I have plenty of rooms and he could not understand why this was happening. He said it is inventory control so he called them and they released the room.

Really WM would have lost in such scenario. Room stays vacant on Tuesday so no income as no once can rent it for one night. An extra cleaning has to be done on Tuesday in addition to Friday. I have to move out all our stuff and come back next day.

It is the new Wyndham.


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## Mongoose (Jul 31, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Sure but Wyndham isn't doing anything for cost. They likely set a cost for the time it takes to clean a room. The average amount of time it takes to clean a room is 20 - 30 minutes. There is no way this cost $127 a room without adding management costs and marking up room amenities like spice, coffee and soaps to the workers wage and benefit package.
> 
> Bonus time has been part of the Worldmark deal from the get go. Every owner knows this. If it cost more it cost more and the mf's make up the difference. That is the contract. It's that simple.
> 
> Bill


You can’t clean a 1 or 2 br unit in 20 mins, especially with COVID requirements.  Those numbers are for hotel rooms pre COVID.


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## Mongoose (Jul 31, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I actually spoke with Worldmark customer care today. We did talk about the 2 night minimum. Why this was put into place was because of covid . In the beginning of covid the housekeepers had to wait 24 hours before entering the unoccupied room. Currently it is 1 to 2 hours after a guest checks out depending on what the state and fed has in place. I asked if Club Wyndham has the same 2 night minimum and was told yes depending on location. I was told all Worldmarks are fully staffed so it isn't a labor shortage. There is no word on when this policy will change as of today.
> 
> We also talked about Moab. The resort is totally built and the reason it is open is because they haven't been able to furnish the rooms because of shortages. There is no furniture.
> 
> Bill


The 24 hour guidance came from the CDC.


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## troy12n (Aug 3, 2021)

deleted


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## Ty1on (Aug 5, 2021)

Mongoose said:


> You can’t clean a 1 or 2 br unit in 20 mins, especially with COVID requirements.  Those numbers are for hotel rooms pre COVID.


You give it 30 min per room, that's 90 minutes for a 2 BR.  $85 per hour is still pretty steep, even with benefits, markup and supplies.


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