# VIP using retail vs resale points?



## jebloomquist (Dec 22, 2012)

I was talking to a fellow Tugger today and an interesting thing was suggested to me. I am looking for verification one way or the other.

Does Wyndham track points for a VIP owner in two categories, 1) points acquired retail, and 2) points acquired resale? The suggestion was that Wyndham does not provide VIP benefits to point used from non-retail contracts.

Have any VIP owners, who also have resale points, found that they do not receive VIP benefits when using the resale points?


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## timeos2 (Dec 22, 2012)

Technically VIP benefits do not apply to any resale points but, in fact, unless it is noticed all points will be treated as VIP. You cannot ask for it or demand it as they will (correctly) say that you aren't entitled but if you just use them in the normal course of a use year you are likely to see the benefits apply. Please note that you don't want to make noise about it or they will remove all access for the non-retail & may even threaten the status of the retail VIP. As VIP is in no way transferable and is not a right but a bonus they call the shots and you have no recourse.  

VIP is strictly a marketing tool and it costs the sales division money so they try to keep those costs as low as possible while still seemingly giving a benefit bump to members (keeps 'em buying more of those grossly overpriced retail points!)


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## ronparise (Dec 22, 2012)

If you are a VIP owner, ie your account pages says something like this :

Welcome, Ronald J Parise
CLUB WYNDHAM® Silver Owner
Logout  |  Change Password  |  Contact Us


every thing in the account incl the resale contracts will get the VIP benefits

in my case over a million points 700000 of which are resale get the 25% discount and upgrades. I get just 5 guest certs,(silver level) and unlimited housekeeping for every point


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## persia (Dec 22, 2012)

VIP is a property of the owner, not the points.  If you are VIP you can use all your points as a VIP.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 22, 2012)

If you go to a sales ordeal they pull your dossier and each contract is listed on a separate page.  About 3 inches down on right there is yes or no for resale.  About six inches down there is comments section  where my resale contracts  state not eligible for VIP  levels.

So, yes  big computer knows  which are resale and Developer.  It would not surprise me to see  VIP perks elimated   on resales  even though one is a VIP

Last year VIP  benefits cost Wyndham  over 12 million in cash plus had to make good with Developer inventory for   discounts  and up grades.   Spread over just 4K  new owners this hurts vs when they were adding 25K+ a year.


No inside info, but  common sense   dictates if  sales don't pick up they will use their  discretion and eliminate more benefits  especially those that  compete with  rental programs.


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## ausman (Dec 22, 2012)

persia said:


> VIP is a property of the owner, not the points.  If you are VIP you can use all your points as a VIP.



This is the way it has worked in practice to date and is a way to explain to new users who want to add resale points.

However a reading of the current directory on p287 shows it not to be so.

" Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."

Because it has not been enforced to date does not mean it will not be. Proceed at your own risk. 

Since Wyndham has been discouraging rental businesses I would have thought this loophole would have been the first and most obvious one to close. However that has not been the case and currently it still exists.


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## lcml11 (Dec 22, 2012)

basham said:


> This is the way it has worked in practice to date and is a way to explain to new users who want to add resale points.
> 
> However a reading of the current directory on p287 shows it not to be so.
> 
> ...



Here are three other relevant quotes:

"We're pleased to offer a VIP program provides special benifits to our members who have 300,000 points or more."

"In recognition of your ownership status, you receive exclusive benefits and increased value."

"Eligability requirements; VIP program benefits are offered to Club Wyndham Plus members allocated at least 300,000 Club Wyndham Plus points on an annual basis.  Only Club Wyndham Club points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, ownership interests acquired by will or intestate succession, ownership interest acquired by immediate relative of members, or through PIC conversions count toward VIP status."

I think the answer to this issue does not rest in the members directory.  The past practice and the above three quotes show the issue is within the scope of the members directory and permitted.  The other quote made by the previous poster is also accurate.  So it depends on which paragraphs are cited or used.


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## massvacationer (Dec 23, 2012)

My guess is that the computer system is unable to handle the complexities of differentiating between retail and resale points that are both in a VIP account.  So, the VIP priveleges are extended to all points in a VIP account.

The risk may be that Wyndham will either upgrade their software or insist that resale points get put in a seperate non-VIP account number.  (They just went into accounts and changed a lot of use-years, so pushing resale contracts into seperate account numbers is not a big leap.)

Since the Sales department has to pay for the value of VIP benefits, there may be a time in the future when Sales won't pay for the VIP benefits, on resale points in VIP accounts, and then changes may happen.

Any changes would piss-off a lot of VIPs, so not sure that will want to go there.


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## lcml11 (Dec 23, 2012)

massvacationer said:


> My guess is that the computer system is unable to handle the complexities of differentiating between retail and resale points that are both in a VIP account.  So, the VIP priveleges are extended to all points in a VIP account.
> 
> The risk may be that Wyndham will either upgrade their software or insist that resale points get put in a seperate non-VIP account number.  (They just went into accounts and changed a lot of use-years, so pushing resale contracts into seperate account numbers is not a big leap.)
> 
> ...



If the stripping of this benifit is being or going to be implemented, I do not know if people currently using it would be affected or not.  If you believe Wyndham, when the point increase roll-out went into effect raising the points level for VIP, the existing VIP accounts were grandfathered.


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## 55plus (Dec 23, 2012)

It's my understanding that when Wyndham's Voyager reservation system rolls out it will divide points into two categories: retail and resell. Retail will receive VIP benefits if the owner is VIP. Resell will not receive benefits. How it will do it is by the owner selecting the contract they want to use for the reservation. 

It's stuff like this that makes me miss Fairfield...


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## persia (Dec 23, 2012)

The wording is so ambiguous it's really hard to tell what they mean.  It's clear that the resale points don't count towards achieving VIP status, but then what happens to resale points purchased by VIPs?  That depends on how you read the paragraph.

The bottom line however is that Wyndham can change the rules, and has changed the rules in the past, so even if they are ambiguous now they can be changed in an instant and the points removed from VIP.  History, sadly is on the side of Wyndham writing the resale points out of the program and announcing it a short time before it goes into effect.


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## 55plus (Dec 23, 2012)

Once the new "Voyager" reservation system comes online we'll probably sell our resell deeds and keep the deeds that make us VIP Platinum, and maybe keep our Glacier Canyon deed. We'll put an Old Town Alexandria deed and a Waikiki Beach Walk deed up for sale. The math doesn't compute to rent out nights with a lessened profit margin.


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## persia (Dec 23, 2012)

If indeed Voyager is something other than a Star Trek episode and if it redefines points in the way you are saying.  We have no way of knowing the truth as wyndham has more spin than fox news....


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 23, 2012)

morrisjim said:


> Once the new "Voyager" reservation system comes online we'll probably sell our resell deeds and keep the deeds that make us VIP Platinum, and maybe keep our Glacier Canyon deed. We'll put an Old Town Alexandria deed and a Waikiki Beach Walk deed up for sale. The math doesn't compute to rent out nights with a lessened profit margin.



I have a feeling this won’t be included with voyager because of ancillary issues with doing it. If you had VIP platinum status and resale points in the same account and you want a reservation where you need both retail and resale points to complete the reservation. In that instance if it is within the 60 day window, you would have to figure out how to handle the following. The VIP points get the 50% discount but the resale point only get a 0% - 40% discount. Then if you want to upgrade your reservation would you have to pay additional points for the portion of the reservations that is resale? Would you have to use a partial reservation transaction? Would you have to pay partial housekeeping credits? I don't see this being possibly worth the time to figure it all out for the minor amount of money they pay for VIP benefits (if it is actually 12 mil or so vs 1.2 billion in sales per year) and the even smaller amount of people who have both VIP and resale contracts that aren't that old that they were grandfathered in and use a significant amount of those resale points with discounts\ugrades. If they do it, that would suck  but it is one where I will believe it when I see it. Every reservation I have had this year has been discounted and upgraded but I am very much the exception vs the rule. I think the "pick the contract" is more to do with whether you use Regular points, canceled points, bonus points or Pooled points. That is the more likely scenario. 

Jason


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 23, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> If the stripping of this benefit is being or going to be implemented, I do not know if people currently using it would be affected or not.  If you believe Wyndham, when the point increase roll-out went into effect raising the points level for VIP, the existing VIP accounts were grandfathered.



As far as I know,   this was the first time  anything was grandfathered.  I am sure the   Main Man,  Marketing Operation  and   Budget Financial Analysts had many heated  discussions.

Just think about it. I do not have  documentable  numbers for  VIPs   and Wyndham refuses to provide  but a good ball park would be  around 60K Silver.

So, if Wyndham told them them would have buy  100K points from Corporate  at say "special"  price  of $10K  that  would  potentially be  about   $60 million  mostly pure profit. (I would pass)!  Given Main  Man is  sell 'em something type and looks at sales dollars coming in, go for it. Then a Devil's advocate says, but will anyone  bite! Hey, great, now all we have to do is eliminate cancel and rebook and raise Platinum to 1,500,000 and VIP  expenses vaporize! Break out the Champagne  and bonuses.

  Owners especially  VIPs have been jerked over so much  already what can they do.? Call me  nasty names!!!   Send  e-mails my secretary routes to trash folder. Burn me in effigy?,   "F" is as low as one can go at BBB!

Or, did he  check the inventory in his pantry and decide this would so deplete he would have to go to resale market to have something for sales weasels sell?  Who knows?

As another poster observes, things will change, I would add for the worser!(sic)


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## 55plus (Dec 23, 2012)

persia said:


> If indeed Voyager is something other than a Star Trek episode and if it redefines points in the way you are saying.  We have no way of knowing the truth as wyndham has more spin than fox news....



I sit on Glacier Canyon's owners association board of directors at its president. The biggest complaint from owners at the annual meeting is that if they want to stay at their home resort (Glacier Canyon) they have to rent it off eBay. A Wyndham manager from corporate spoke about Voyager reservation system and how it will impact the mega renters. I'm not sure how it will impact, but he said that an owner will have to select a contract to use when making a reservation.


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## timeos2 (Dec 23, 2012)

It sounds like they plan to force separate account numbers for retail & resale purchases. Once they do that the owner name means nothing for assignment of the VIP stuff. Very easy & they can unilaterally implement it at will. I'll bet it's in the works to be sprung soon. Remember its all about sales & profits. Owners are third or lower on the priority list (usually WAY below "what can we take home?").


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## kalua (Dec 23, 2012)

*vip resale points*

this has been said by a couple people now. if you are receiving vip discounts on your  resale points I wouldn't be on a bulletin board telling about, wyndham employees can read also, and yes they have been able to track whether your points are retail or resale and from which acct. they come from, at least since i've been an owner , sometimes it doesn't benefit you  to poke the  bear with a stick.


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## persia (Dec 23, 2012)

Perhaps Glacier Canyon is the straw that broke the camels back, I know Glacier Canyon points are some of the few Wyndham resorts that actually has resale value, I assume the mega-renters are behind that.  If mega-renters go I suspect that so does resale value...

The trouble with Glacier Canyon is that people own over twelve months but want to make reservations over 3...




morrisjim said:


> I sit on Glacier Canyon's owners association board of directors at its president. The biggest complaint from owners at the annual meeting is that if they want to stay at their home resort (Glacier Canyon) they have to rent it off eBay. A Wyndham manager from corporate spoke about Voyager reservation system and how it will impact the mega renters. I'm not sure how it will impact, but he said that an owner will have to select a contract to use when making a reservation.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 24, 2012)

persia said:


> Perhaps Glacier Canyon is the straw that broke the camels back, I know Glacier Canyon points are some of the few Wyndham resorts that actually has resale value, I assume the mega-renters are behind that.  If mega-renters go I suspect that so does resale value...
> 
> The trouble with Glacier Canyon is that people own over twelve months but want to make reservations over 3...



The other problem is, you have people that expect to be able to get reservations at 2-4 months out when you have to book at 10 whether there are mega renters or not. 

Jason


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## persia (Dec 24, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The other problem is, you have people that expect to be able to get reservations at 2-4 months out when you have to book at 10 whether there are mega renters or not.
> 
> Jason



Yes, exactly, there wasn't a friday, saturday or sunday 10 months out that didn't have at least some inventory at 7:00 am....


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 24, 2012)

GC is NOT in the center of Wyndham world as in the southeast. There is a very BIG market of buyers who Wyndham want to sell points to - ebay rents at less than MFs kills off the smart buyers. GC (while I have NOT been there) is a jewel location and action --- 

What other resorts have (in WYndham sales terms) have that level of pentatration to sell in a different market verses GC? What else is in the pipeline? Reunion in Orlando? Tower 4 at MB (has to be sold out now). Shell Resorts? The Worldmark transferred inventory (of the less Worldmark resorts)?

The internet has changed the sales/market place...for everyone. As had the economy for the past 5+ years.


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