# Wyndham changes



## Millisara (Oct 15, 2011)

Somewhere on this forum someone recently posted a comment about wynhdam having made changes in the past that were not owner friendly leaving owners unhappy. How has the system changed over the recent years for better but particularly for the worse and what should one expect in the future from Wyndham?  From reading Tug I know I can expect higher MFs. What else? Thanks


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## siesta (Oct 15, 2011)

Millisara said:


> Somewhere on this forum someone recently posted a comment about wynhdam having made changes in the past that were not owner friendly leaving owners unhappy. How has the system changed over the recent years for better but particularly for the worse and what should one expect in the future from Wyndham?  From reading Tug I know I can expect higher MFs. What else? Thanks


 primarily what i suspect that they are referring to is ability of owners to transfer/rent points to other owners accounts, this ruffled alotof feathers, especially for people with more points than they needed. Also to name some other changes: changes to vip benefits, changes to rci external exchnage point chart, increased resort transfer fee.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 15, 2011)

Guest Certificate fees went from $29to $49 to $129 in a two month period - of course, the insult is IF you added the info for your guest online, if will only cost you $99 (after your FREE 1 (one) each year).

Wyndham member fees on even/odd year contracts are now calculated year year on the FULL points value EVERY year (instead of 1/2 each year) - doubling those fees.  So your 189,000 pt ODD year contract is charged $48.20 to $59.54 per year MORE than prior years (dependant upon options and total points owned under member number).

Increasing of the minimum number of points needed to the External Exchange companies (RCI or II) from 28,000 CWP/CWA points to 74,000 CWP/CWA points. And adding a "PRIME" season into RCI trading - costing much more in Wyndham points.

Cancelling the option for II resorts points owners from opening II accounts - only RCI for new members. (Royal Vista, Governors Green, Star Island, and 2 other resorts).

Yes, the resort transfer fee went from $100 to $299 per contract. And still taking the backroom transfer department 8 weeks to update the computer systems. 

And almost all of these increasing costs occurred without any notice to owners who are referred to as members ... members of what?


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## ronparise (Oct 15, 2011)

Im new to Wyndham, having purchased my first contract late last year so Im not one of those disgruntled owners that have lost benefits. But here are a few of the things that I have read about

1) Wyndhan owners used to be able to exchange 28000 points through RCI and get some very good deals.....not any more. Since RCI and Wyndham teamed up to create the RCI portal this opportunity is gone....There are lots of folks that bought Wyndham only to trade...they have been hurt by this change


2) Wyndham owners used to be able to transfer points among themselves..If I was short a few thousand points for a reservation I wanted, You could as a favor, or for a few dollars, transfer them to me. We cant do that now. 

3) I believe there was a day when VIP benefits were more robust and could be sold with the deeds you own

4) the newer resorts require more points than the older resorts so an owner at one of the older resorts dosent have enough points to reserve the same size unit at one of the newer resorts

5) Wyndham has created a new "club" Club Wyndham Access, that is non deeded. I think this is the future of Wyndham.  As time goes on I think you will see more inventory moving into Club Wyndham Access and away from Club Wyndham Select.  I see it as a good thing...There are not many here that would agree with me. 

Thats all i see, Im sure some of the long time Wyndham owners will have some of their on favorites to discuss


As to the future..anything that makes buying from the developer look better than buying resale could happen. I see the creation of more exclusive classes of ownership, like Presidential Reserve as a real possibility,


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Cancelling the option for II resorts points owners from opening II accounts - only RCI for new members. (Royal Vista, Governors Green, Star Island, and 2 other resorts).



As Wyndham/II traders we are very interested in the future of II trading.  Have you seen this new policy anywhere in writing from Wyndham or do you know it only from your or other new member's experience?


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 15, 2011)

hjtug said:


> As Wyndham/II traders we are very interested in the future of II trading.  Have you seen this new policy anywhere in writing from Wyndham or do you know it only from your or other new member's experience?



I agree that the new members' directory still looks like RCI and II are viable choices dependant upon 1st contract purchase. It was raised as a serious question to the Wyndham VP at the Royal Vista annual owner's in 2010.


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## bnoble (Oct 15, 2011)

I became an owner almost five years ago now.  During that time, there were two notable negative changes I saw.  The first was very strict (and expensive) guest certificate policies, as noted above.  That's nothing other than an attempt to make life difficult for the renters, and honestly I think it flat-out failed, but we are stuck with it.  The second is that the cost to trade in RCI/II has also gone up---though in all honestly, the old system allowed owners to rob the space bank blind, and was unsustainable, so it was not completely unexpected.

There have also been some changes to the VIP program, but I'm not a VIP so I do not track them as closely.

On the plus side, over the same time, the online reservation tool has been greatly improved, including real-time inventory management.  They have also added the ability to book RCI exchanges online rather than having to call.  Finally, there have been some nice additions to the resort portfolio, including adding some Smuggs inventory via WAAM that *includes* owner-access to the Smuggs amenities.

On balance, I'm still happy with my *resale* ownership.  And, for the most part, the people around the pool who bought from the developer are happy too---that's largely because they don't know what it would be worth if they tried to sell, but sometimes ignorance is bliss.


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

I don't think I have seen this referred to on TUG.  There is a recently started poll of owner satisfaction on the Wyndham Owners Forum (http://forums.atozed.com) and some discussion of the recent changes by Wyndham.


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> I agree that the new members' directory still looks like RCI and II are viable choices dependant upon 1st contract purchase. It was raised as a serious question to the Wyndham VP at the Royal Vista annual owner's in 2010.



For clarification, was the question: Why does the owners manual still say that when it is no longer true?


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## learnalot (Oct 15, 2011)

hjtug said:


> For clarification, was the question: Why does the owners manual still say that when it is no longer true?



Not sure whether this is your question or you are attempting to paraphrase someone else's question for clarity.  Either way, to the question "Why does the owners manual still say that when it is no longer true?" the answer is likely that the II information still appears in the Wyndham directory because it is still applicable to those ownerships whose affiliation is already with II - they are sort of grandfathered.  I believe what Linda and others were referring to is that when these original ownerships are sold, Wyndham is requiring those resales to be affiliated with RCI, rather than retaining their original affiliation with II.

Someone correct me if I am wrong or am misunderstanding the question.


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

bnoble;1188131though in all honestly said:
			
		

> I don't have a good overall picture of how the exchange systems work.  Who or what was coming up short because of 28K exchanges?  If the exchange companies could have used the units in another way, why didn't they do so?  Why didn't the exchange companies just stop offering units for 28K or at least limiting them to off-season studios as was indicated on paper?


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

learnalot said:


> Not sure whether this is your question or you are attempting to paraphrase someone else's question for clarity.



Sorry, I was referring to the "serious question to the Wyndham VP at the Royal Vista annual owner's in 2010" mentioned by Linda (see the quote in my previous message)



> Either way, to the question "Why does the owners manual still say that when it is no longer true?" the answer is likely that the II information still appears in the Wyndham directory because it is still applicable to those ownerships whose affiliation is already with II - they are sort of grandfathered.  I believe what Linda and others were referring to is that when these original ownerships are sold, Wyndham is requiring those resales to be affiliated with RCI, rather than retaining their original affiliation with II.



I am just interested in seeing anything about the future of Wyndham /II trading, especially if it is documented.  Linda and you seem convinced that the change has been made but I wonder whether it might be an urban legend. 

I think we should not hijack this thread any further.


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## ausman (Oct 15, 2011)

hjtug said:


> I don't have a good overall picture of how the exchange systems work.  Who or what was coming up short because of 28K exchanges?



Other non Wyndham timeshare owners would have been coming up short.

Wyndham previously had an internal preference, very low value deposits could trade into much higher value Wyndham units if a Wyndham owner.

Wyndham deposits themselves up until around 2008 had a much higher trading value than warranted.

The essence of an exchange system as any economist will try to explain, is that it attempts to give a commonality of value to disparate units. My 2 skins may equal your 3 arrows. Money gets involved and my one skin = 50 shells and your one arrow is worth 33 shells.

When through manipulation my studio blue time deposit trades for a red time 2 BR then the 2 BR owners have lost something,.


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## learnalot (Oct 15, 2011)

hjtug said:


> I don't have a good overall picture of how the exchange systems work.  Who or what was coming up short because of 28K exchanges?  If the exchange companies could have used the units in another way, why didn't they do so?  Why didn't the exchange companies just stop offering units for 28K or at least limiting them to off-season studios as was indicated on paper?



My take on the 28K exchanges:  In the days of the 28K deposits, Wyndham trading power within RCI was very low - which was understandable considering what 28K would actually represent within Wyndham's inventory.  The exception to this poor trading power was for trading back into Wyndham properties.  There was apparently some sort of boost in trading power/internal preference that would often make it possible to snag a 2BR Wyndham unit with a 28K deposit if you did so just after a bulk deposit had been made by Wyndham.  That internal preference/trading power boost is now gone, as is the old points grid that included the 28K deposits.  In its place is a points grid that represents much more accurately the points cost of Wyndham inventory.  

The upside of this is that it addressed the poor trading power (with the mentioned exception of Wyndham properties) because the points under the new grid cover more than the a Branson studio in January.  So now trading power has ceased to be an issue, but they overcorrected because now everything is a 4 or 5 star deposit and there is not a mechanism for spending less points and getting maybe a 3 star unit in advance, or any unit inside 30-45 days when most inventory within RCI will see a reduction in TPU costs.  It is very frustrating to people who were able to play the 28K game successfully before and may have been able to get 4 or 5 weeks in 3 to 4 star units for the points they must now spend to get 1 week in ANY unit.  It's not a terrible grid if someone really wants to book a 4 or 5 star unit, but the grid does not consider unit/resort quality, just size and season.  No bargain basement is available.


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## hjtug (Oct 15, 2011)

basham said:


> Other non Wyndham timeshare owners would have been coming up short.
> 
> When through manipulation my studio blue time deposit trades for a red time 2 BR then the 2 BR owners have lost something,.



So, why didn't RCI just stop offering such trades?


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## learnalot (Oct 15, 2011)

hjtug said:


> So, why didn't RCI just stop offering such trades?



They did.  See my post above.  I think we were typing at the same time.


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## DrBopp (Oct 15, 2011)

learnalot said:


> My take on the 28K exchanges:  In the days of the 28K deposits, Wyndham trading power within RCI was very low - which was understandable considering what 28K would actually represent within Wyndham's inventory.  The exception to this poor trading power was for trading back into Wyndham properties.  There was apparently some sort of boost in trading power/internal preference that would often make it possible to snag a 2BR Wyndham unit with a 28K deposit if you did so just after a bulk deposit had been made by Wyndham.  That internal preference/trading power boost is now gone, as is the old points grid that included the 28K deposits.  In its place is a points grid that represents much more accurately the points cost of Wyndham inventory.
> 
> The upside of this is that it addressed the poor trading power (with the mentioned exception of Wyndham properties) because the points under the new grid cover more than the a Branson studio in January.  So now trading power has ceased to be an issue, but they overcorrected because now everything is a 4 or 5 star deposit and there is not a mechanism for spending less points and getting maybe a 3 star unit in advance, or any unit inside 30-45 days when most inventory within RCI will see a reduction in TPU costs.  It is very frustrating to people who were able to play the 28K game successfully before and may have been able to get 4 or 5 weeks in 3 to 4 star units for the points they must now spend to get 1 week in ANY unit.  It's not a terrible grid if someone really wants to book a 4 or 5 star unit, but the grid does not consider unit/resort quality, just size and season.  No bargain basement is available.



I understand clearly what you are saying and it make a lot of sense, but my question would be;
What is the TPU of a unit that has not been used and is past it's occupancy date?

Gordon


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 16, 2011)

hjtug said:


> For clarification, was the question: Why does the owners manual still say that when it is no longer true?



I don't write the Wyndham's member directory.  The II resorts now list an affilation or status as a RCI trader as well as an II trade (see Royal Vista or Star Island).

The owner's meeting was 19 months ago and the people complaining seem to believe it had started 2+ years before. 

Those resorts have been having deposits/trades showing up in RCI as reported here on TUG.

Why? RCI (the other side of Wyndham worldwide) most likely is offering a membership discount over the II fee. Or there is a corporate decision to keep the monies inhouse Wyndham.


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## learnalot (Oct 16, 2011)

DrBopp said:


> I understand clearly what you are saying and it make a lot of sense, but my question would be;
> What is the TPU of a unit that has not been used and is past it's occupancy date?
> 
> Gordon



Hi Gordon,

Agreed.  Like I said, I think they overcorrected because they did not leave any mechanism for discounted points on last minute exchanges on units that might otherwise sit empty.


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## bnoble (Oct 16, 2011)

> Who or what was coming up short because of 28K exchanges?


I think others have explained it well.  But, I was routinely able to deposit 28K generics and use them to exchange into prime season 2BR units with the internal preference.  For example, one such exchange was into summer 2BR at Bonnet creek---which costs 224K to book internally.  You can only do that for so long before running a deficit.



> I think they overcorrected because they did not leave any mechanism for discounted points on last minute exchanges on units that might otherwise sit empty.


This is true of all of the mini-system portals, as far as I know: WM, Bluegreen, HGVC, etc.  Point values are fixed with no last-minute discounts.  This is more or less how RCI Points works, as well.  It is a downside of the portal for sure vs. a "regular" RCI Weeks ownership.

At the end of the day, no one ownership can be good for all uses.  In the "old days", you could get great bargains, but were completely shut out of high-end trades.  For example, no deposit of any size was sufficient to exchange into the Manhattan Club or Orlando DVCs.  In the current system, the "bargains" have gone away, but the high-end exchanges are now possible, and in some cases decent values.



> There is a recently started poll of owner satisfaction on the Wyndham Owners Forum (http://forums.atozed.com) and some discussion of the recent changes by Wyndham.


I still check in over there from time to time, but have stopped participating on a regular basis.  From my point of view, the site has come to be dominated by a few loud and very negative voices---some of whom appear to be large-point VIP owners who have had their rental businesses negatively impacted by VIP changes---and I've found it to be tedious.  I'm not sure how representative they are.


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## learnalot (Oct 16, 2011)

bnoble said:


> This is true of all of the mini-system portals, as far as I know: WM, Bluegreen, HGVC, etc.  Point values are fixed with no last-minute discounts.  This is more or less how RCI Points works, as well.  It is a downside of the portal for sure vs. a "regular" RCI Weeks ownership.



I know this is true of all the mini-system portals but it doesn't have to be that way.  I believe that on the II side there is a mechanism for last minute discounts, even for the mini-portal systems (although I don't know if there are actually mini-portals in II since I don't use it).  I guess I should call them point grid deposits instead.  I believe they are called flexchange deposits.  This seems like a fair and logical solution to me.


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## bnoble (Oct 16, 2011)

Of course it doesn't have to be that way.  But, all of the "direct-point-based"  mechanisms in RCI do seem to work that way, except for Instant Exchange (i.e. "Points Raiding Weeks")


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## hjtug (Oct 16, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> The II resorts now list an affilation or status as a RCI trader as well as an II trade (see Royal Vista or Star Island).



Yes, I now see in the Resort Fast Facts that they are listed as both II five star and RCI Gold Crown.  Thank you for pointing this out.  I checked Governors Green, Avenue Plaza, and Riversides Suites and they show no RCI affiliation in their Resort Fast Facts.  Perhaps that is because they are not Gold Crown.

It will be interesting to see how Wyndham/II trading develops as our numbers dwindle.  I wonder about resale of contracts currently with an II account.  Will they be switched to RCI on resale or continue with II?

I checked the TUG Resort Listing for the five and the only one that shows dual affiliation is Avenue Plaza.  I will send an email to the TUG management to point out the need to update.


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## hjtug (Oct 16, 2011)

learnalot said:


> I believe that on the II side there is a mechanism for last minute discounts, even for the mini-portal systems (although I don't know if there are actually mini-portals in II since I don't use it).  I guess I should call them point grid deposits instead.  I believe they are called flexchange deposits.  This seems like a fair and logical solution to me.



As a Wyndham II trader, I have no idea of what mini-portals are.  The Flexchange period is, I believe, the last sixty days before check-in when any deposit can secure any unit irrespective of the usual trading restrictions and resort desirability.  This year we have been using up some 28K deposits that were made before the changes in the Wyndham trading grid.  They are still pulling multiple bedroom units both in and out of the the flexchange period.  On another thread another Wyndham/II trader indicated she has some leftover 28K deposits and more recent 74K deposits and the 28K ones were still working as before while the 74K ones were pulling even more units, which is what one might expect.


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## bnoble (Oct 16, 2011)

> As a Wyndham II trader, I have no idea of what mini-portals are.


They are web interfaces to the RCI system, denominated in the points of the "owned" system.  So, you can exchange Wyndham points on line directly for RCI inventory.  The WVO owners site talks about this here (login may be required):

https://www.wyndhamvacationresorts.com/ffr/member/help/learningCenter/details.do?id=LIB-0002628


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## rrlongwell (Oct 16, 2011)

hjtug said:


> ... I checked Governors Green, Avenue Plaza, and Riversides Suites and they show no RCI affiliation in their Resort Fast Facts.  Perhaps that is because they are not Gold Crown ...



Governors Green is a Wyndham resort that I believe trades in whole or part through RCI.  It is the best of the three Williamsburg resorts that are Wyndham's, in my opinion.


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## Cheryl20772 (Oct 17, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Governors Green is a Wyndham resort that I believe trades in whole or part through RCI.  It is the best of the three Williamsburg resorts that are Wyndham's, in my opinion.



I think that in the past it did trade exclusively in II, however, they may be forcing new owners there to go into RCI. (I don't have any documentation to support that).  You can find GG in both the RCI directory of Resorts http://www.rci.com/RCI/rdg/availableUnits.do and the II Directory http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=1503&resortCode=WIL&parentResortCode=WIL

We love staying there when we don't need the beach.  It's not too long a drive from home either.


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## Timeshare Von (Oct 17, 2011)

Earlier this year I dumped my Kingsgate 3BR lockoff week #18 due to the RCI TPE program as my "value" was severely damaged and I refuse(d) to pay the money to convert to points with Wyndham.

I also signed over my Flagstaff fixed week #12 back to the POA when that opportunity was offered to owners.  That decision was simple since I acquired it for free back in 2004, so I used it for about 6 years for just the cost of MF's.  It was a good trader in RCI when there was the Wyndham "preference" something else that was going to go away with the new RCI TPE scheme.

I am still holding on to a very minimal Wyndham points contract and may some day dump it too.  It was also given to me for free, so other than a somewhat high MF, it is painless.

More and more as the timeshare landscape changes, many (most?) changes will be to the detriment of owners and you can expect to see folks seriously reevaluate their ownership and what makes the most sense with the best value for their personal situation.


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## nole9911 (Oct 26, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Guest Certificate fees went from $29to $49 to $129 in a two month period - of course, the insult is IF you added the info for your guest online, if will only cost you $99 (after your FREE 1 (one) each year).
> 
> Wyndham member fees on even/odd year contracts are now calculated year year on the FULL points value EVERY year (instead of 1/2 each year) - doubling those fees.  So your 189,000 pt ODD year contract is charged $48.20 to $59.54 per year MORE than prior years (dependant upon options and total points owned under member number).
> 
> ...



As a VIP Gold member, we get 10 free guest confirmations per year.


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## nole9911 (Oct 26, 2011)

basham said:


> Other non Wyndham timeshare owners would have been coming up short.
> 
> Wyndham previously had an internal preference, very low value deposits could trade into much higher value Wyndham units if a Wyndham owner.
> 
> ...



Excellent explanation of commonality of value to disparate units.   The way I see it in easier to understand verbage is this:  You can never trade your pair of roller skates for a mercedes again... Ever.  You can however, trade your mercedes for several pairs of roller skates.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 26, 2011)

nole9911 said:


> As a VIP Gold member, we get 10 free guest confirmations per year.



Very well aware of that as I, too, have VIP whatever status. However, in discussing the change to the common owners of Wyndham, the CHANGE in cost of Guest Certificates was extreme.

But is the dollar cost YOU SPENT for your VIP GOLD membership truly worth it to SAVE $900 in Guest Certificate fees? (If you even use ALL 10 of your GCs every year?)


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 26, 2011)

nole9911 said:


> Excellent explanation of commonality of value to disparate units.   The way I see it in easier to understand verbage is this:  You can never trade your pair of roller skates for a mercedes again... Ever.  You can however, trade your mercedes for several pairs of roller skates.



Nice use of technical terms. But sarcasim to another poster? 

Us members did not set the original terms of trading Wyndham points into RCI deposit. And the external exchange preference existed for YEARS and YEARS. The Wyndham sales staff repeatly cited the exchange preference in their sales pitches. 

Exchange companies regularly as a business practice have Exchange Preferences for their large corporate affiliated customers. Marriott for Marriott; Starwood for Starwood; Wyndham for Wyndham is now a NOT. 

Wyndham still will upgrade their Gold and Platinum VIP members during non-RED week deposits (supposely). Keep enjoying all those perks - before Wyndham reduces them again.:ignore:


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