# HGVC Lagoon Tower



## bastroum (Nov 18, 2010)

I just reviewed availabilty at this resort and are amazed. I have owned and visited every year since the Lagoon Tower opened in 2000. Many years have been several times so I always check availabilty. I have never seen so much inventory available. Does anyone know why?


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## alwysonvac (Nov 18, 2010)

see this thread - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134694


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## Big Spike (Nov 19, 2010)

Hgvc holds back inventory in breach of their contract with HHv owners.  Inventory that is supposed to be in open season is held at their whim to be used as they please and released when they feel.  This is in total contradiction to the contracts I signed with them for the HHv properties.  The remaining inventory should be relesed at 9 months as was stated when I bought.  I bought (40,200 points) in Hawaii and lived for years with the system when it ran as advertised.  In the past few years HGVc has muniplulated the inventory making availability time uncertain.  There always is availability eventually, but why as an owner there should I have to check on a daily basis to see if they eventually felt like releasing inventory?  These are owner owned weeks and not HGVC weeks.


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## PigsDad (Nov 19, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Hgvc holds back inventory in breach of their contract with HHv owners.  Inventory that is supposed to be in open season is held at their whim to be used as they please and released when they feel.  This is in total contradiction to the contracts I signed with them for the HHv properties.  The remaining inventory should be relesed at 9 months as was stated when I bought.  I bought (40,200 points) in Hawaii and lived for years with the system when it ran as advertised.  In the past few years HGVc has muniplulated the inventory making availability time uncertain.  There always is availability eventually, but why as an owner there should I have to check on a daily basis to see if they eventually felt like releasing inventory?  These are owner owned weeks and not HGVC weeks.


Can you please back up your accusations that HGVC is in breach of contract with references to documents?  I have never seen such written requirements.

Kurt


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## feed the otter (Nov 19, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Hgvc holds back inventory in breach of their contract with HHv owners. . . . These are owner owned weeks and not HGVC weeks.



To the contrary and in furtherance of Kurt's point, I suspect the only obligation HGVC has to any of its members is to accommodate those who specifically own shares at a given location (Lagoon Tower in this case).  After that, anything they release for club reservations is likely a function of what HGVC thinks the rest of the HGVC membership will use during the club reservation window, vs. how much HGVC thinks those days are worth in the form of paid reservations to the general public.  Notice as well that one CANNOT use Hilton Honors points to book a room at an HGVC property.

To an extent this goes to the point that one should buy where he/she wants and intends to stay.  That aside, HGVC understandably wants their units occupied in a manner that is most profitable to their operation, and $$$ from the general public is easily worth more than club season points from HGVC members who choose to use their points someplace other than wherever they happen to own.


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## pianodinosaur (Nov 19, 2010)

PigsDad said:


> Can you please back up your accusations that HGVC is in breach of contract with references to documents?  I have never seen such written requirements.
> 
> Kurt



I have never seen any such documents either.  I have never had any reason to suspect that HGVC has violated any terms of our agreements since I joined in 2001.  

I think the vacancies in Hawaii are most likely due to the cost of airfare and the economy.


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## Big Spike (Nov 19, 2010)

In reply ... Club reservations as stated in my owners guide and implied by my salesman every time I closed a contract is 276 days to 1 day before check-in.  If you'll look in the 2010 members guide on page 94 you'll see this stated. 
I won't back down I've called HGVc and my salespeople and get the normal "tourism is up and there's no availabity" B.S. ONLY TO HAVE ALL KINDS OF AVAILABILTY SHOW UP MONTHS LATER.   I own at this resort and should have preference to change my reservation or room type over the general public.  But rather I have to make firm reservations prior to 9 months and pay a healthy maintenance fee so I can  be treated like a non-owner in club season.   And to the statement "Hgvc understandably wants their units occupied in a manner that is most profitable to their operation".. I contend that once a propoerty is sold out and the maintenance fees are paid HGVC has no right to rent out or "profit" from those units.  Big Spike


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## PigsDad (Nov 19, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> In reply ... Club reservations as stated in my owners guide and implied by my salesman every time I closed a contract is 276 days to 1 day before check-in.  If you'll look in the 2010 members guide on page 94 you'll see this stated.
> I won't back down I've called HGVc and my salespeople and get the normal "tourism is up and there's no availabity" B.S. ONLY TO HAVE ALL KINDS OF AVAILABILTY SHOW UP MONTHS LATER.   I own at this resort and should have preference to change my reservation or room type over the general public.  But rather I have to make firm reservations prior to 9 months and pay a healthy maintenance fee so I can  be treated like a non-owner in club season.   And to the statement "Hgvc understandably wants their units occupied in a manner that is most profitable to their operation".. I contend that once a propoerty is sold out and the maintenance fees are paid HGVC has no right to rent out or "profit" from those units.  Big Spike


First off, you really can't rely on what salespeople say.  Their job is to sell more units, and they are by no means the experts with regard to policy.

I understand it may be frustrating to you if you were given the impression that _all _inventory for _all _properties would be released to _all _members at the beginning of the Club Season.  But if it was not written somewher in a contract, HGVC can hardly be accused of being in breach of said contract.

I really think that HGVC is reacting to the feedback of their members, giving more members the chance to book what they want -- not just members that can plan their vacations 9 months out.  That's what was stated in their newsletter a couple years ago.  That is what we are seeing with the inventory in Hawaii.  It seems perfectly logical and well within HGVC's rights to do so.

If you choose not to use your home season advantage to book your rooms, then at the 9 month mark you are in the pool of every other HGVC member.  There should be *no expectation *that you should have any advantage over other HGVC members to book Hawaii rooms during Club Season, just because you own there.

Kurt


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## frank808 (Nov 19, 2010)

Can anyone please check if there is availability on july 1st to july6th or the 7th?  I want to rent a studio or 1 bedroom.  thank you


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## alwysonvac (Nov 19, 2010)

frank808 said:


> Can anyone please check if there is availability on july 1st to july6th or the 7th?  I want to rent a studio or 1 bedroom.  thank you



I will send you a PM. Can't post specific dates in this thread otherwise it will get moved to the sighting forum.


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## feed the otter (Nov 19, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> I contend that once a propoerty is sold out and the maintenance fees are paid HGVC has no right to rent out or "profit" from those units.  Big Spike



I'm not so sure they're profiting on sold out locations.  In fact, if sold out implies they have sold 52 shares (weeks) for each available unit on the property, we should hope they NEVER sell out, since that would mean owners having a near impossible time booking a homeweek reservation when they want.  Until that happens, HGVC owns what's left and can rent it out or release it to club members as HGVC sees fit.  And again, it doesn't appear that HGVC is trying to profit at the expense of the property owners (i.e. - during the 9-12 month homeweek reservation period) but rather at the expense of those trying to work the club reservation window.

Like many of us, I do much of my reserving during the club window at locations away from home.  As such I'd be only too happy to have better availability and not have to fight for the scraps inside 9 months.  I'm just trying to be objective by saying HGVC is doing enough by meeting their obligation to their owners during that 9-12 month homeweek window.  After that, only the strong (or those determined to stay up 'til midnight East Coast time on day 276 :hysterical: ) will survive.

Happy Hunting.


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## hockeybrain (Nov 20, 2010)

I tend to agree with what Big Spike is saying.   Since Blackrock took over things are not the same.   Yes, Hilton is meeting its contractual obligations, but it sure appears like they are stretching their ethical obligations to HGVC owners.   I own at Lagoon because I do not want to worry about availability, like my unit and book early.    However, I think it is only right that Hilton should treat HGVC owners properly.   9 month inventory should appear at 9 months, not 3 months out.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 20, 2010)

The big deposit as this point in time is contrary to what HGVC Supervisors are saying.  However it has happened with such frequency lately that I have become to expect it.  

If you want inventory you better get it now before it get all reserved up.


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## Big Spike (Nov 21, 2010)

*Delusional Lagoon Tower Owner*

Last night I dug out our contract for the Laggon Tower @ the HHV.  It was dated 3-29-00.  Basically at that time it was Hilton's first venture into timesharing in Hawaii.  Back then we as owners had a myriad of options relating to ownership.  We could choose anything form a studio to a 3 bedroom penthouse.  We were told that we could always change our units size or location in the club season as long as we had enough points to do so.  The Club season started shortly after the Home season (and by shortly I mean days and not months) and during this time you could change or add to your reservation.  For the most part You could read what Hiton wrote and understand it and you could believe what they said. This was a beautiful relationship which lasted for a little over 7 years..............   Since that time the relationship has evolved into a abyss where you have to question what the "definition of "is" is"...   Is the Club Season for the Lagoon Tower as stated in the 2010 Club Member Guide "Book 276 days before check-out to 1 day before check-in" ...........or is it keep "checking back" for availability and one day months down the road we'll tell you there's "no availability" and then the next dump all kinds of availability on the computer................  I've been told I'm "naive" and "bitter" for thinking that the system should work as it once did and possibly thought of as being delusional for thinking that the system actually did once work the way I discribed.............  In my ownership documents of the 364 suites in the Lagoon Tower 93.336360% are described as "vacation ownership interests"  leaving symbolically 6.66% non-owership intersest.....I think there are possibly other owners out there that feel the way I do and long for the old days or am I just "delusional"?  After all my contract still says "Owner" and not "Benefactor".....


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## Talent312 (Nov 21, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Last night I dug out our contract for the Laggon Tower @ the HHV.  It was dated 3-29-00.



For some reason, you didn't quote any provision in your contract which guaranteed you a reservation anywhere of your choice or promised that the rules will never change. If you read the governing documents (a/k/a disclosure statements) to which your title/membership is subject, you will likely find these provisions or something similar (which also appear in the Members Guide):

-- HGV is not liable or responsible for a Member's failure... to receive a specific reservation outside of the Member's Home Week reservation.

-- Club program use options and rules... are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice.
--------------------------
_What is delusional is the belief that it could be othewise._


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## alwysonvac (Nov 21, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Last night I dug out our contract for the Laggon Tower @ the HHV.  It was dated 3-29-00.  Basically at that time it was Hilton's first venture into timesharing in Hawaii.  Back then we as owners had a myriad of options relating to ownership.  We could choose anything form a studio to a 3 bedroom penthouse.  We were told that we could always change our units size or location in the club season as long as we had enough points to do so.  The Club season started shortly after the Home season (and by shortly I mean days and not months) and during this time you could change or add to your reservation.



We didn't buy in 2000 but did the sales presentation at the Hilton Hawaiian Village back in Sept/Oct 2000. I agree that they made it seem very easy to book any size unit. Our sales rep didn't even mention anything about home season vs club season. I'm not a impulse buyer but my hubby was  interested so I gave into the HGVC VIP Package ("Try it before you Buy it") since it seemed like a decent package and we didn't have to make a commitment to purchase. 

Before our revisit to HHV via the VIP Package, I did a search online to find out any additional information on HGVC. That's when I found TUG. From TUG, I discovered the different booking windows and the impact to us if we were to become HHV owners (all owners have equal access in the club reservation window). I felt deceived because our sales rep knew our intent was never to stay in the unit size that he was trying to sell us. He told us that we had to own in Hawaii and of course the value of our timeshare would only increase over time since its prime property in Waikiki. He simply told us what we wanted to hear. 

I'm sorry that you were lied to but you're not the first (nor the last) to be lied to by a timeshare sales guy. It's an industry wide problem. One would think that the sales team for the hotel based systems won't stoop so low but they seem to be no different than the others out there.

See this post from a timeshare sales guy. I've experienced some of the sales tactics explained in his post during my HGVC owner updates (which is why I don't go any more  ) - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=708145&postcount=51


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 21, 2010)

I have begun to expect change in everything.  It usually does. 

My timeshare ownership has changed.  When I bought my first timeshare 15 years ago, there was barely an internet, and nothing was ever online.

Well today many things have changed.  There are things that I wished stayed the same, but others have changed for the better.

I understand your frustration, as you have been in the habit of using HGVC a certain way.  I too have noticed the holding back of inventory at HHV.  I can't change it but I keep looking for the inventory which eventually gets deposits, albeit, on a delayed basis from my expectation.  But in the end most of the inventory does arrive as expected, just not when I expected.

I had to wait for inventory, but I did get the units I wanted. 

Did you get the units you wanted? In the end is that not what is important.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 21, 2010)

*Long for the old days*



Big Spike said:


> .....I think there are possibly other owners out there that feel the way I do and long for the old days or am I just "delusional"?  After all my contract still says "Owner" and not "Benefactor".....



I agree with what Sandy stated above about "change". I've come to expect it especially since HGVC has ultimate control on program changes.

I also expect future changes and I expect some changes will work out in my favor while others won't.

I guess if I bought from the developer and own as many points as you do, I might feel very differently.


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## Big Spike (Nov 21, 2010)

Talent I bow to superior Knowledge and experience with regards to ownership at the Lagoon Tower.  By the way on page 24 of 2010 guide state that "Club reservation window enables you to make plans well in advance".   For owners of multiple weeks taking people along (this year 11 family & customers) it might be a little hard to guarentee accommodations so they can book airfare when I can't assure them a place to stay till 3-1/2 to 4 months out.  Of course if you don't have multiple weeks or for that matter friends to take along it probably isn't an issue.  My point in all of this is that the program has changed from what it was to what it is now and in doing so HGVC is punishing multiple week owners at their own home resort  with the recent changes that have been made regarding availability...


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## alwysonvac (Nov 21, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> My point in all of this is that the program has changed from what it was to what it is now and in doing so HGVC is punishing multiple week owners at their own home resort  with the recent changes that have been made regarding availability...



Hmm... you have a very good point about multiple week owners. Especially since HGVC is pushing for multiweek ownership with HGVC Elite membership.

I just won't toss in the home resort piece (since you only own two weeks at the Lagoon Tower and it looks like you're trying to book more weeks than you own at your home resort) but focus on the Club reservation window (since you own a little over 40,000 HGVC points with 1 week at the Waikoloa beach resort, 1 week at Kingsland, and the 2 weeks at the Lagoon tower). 

We all know that there are no guarantees during the Club Reservation Window. It's pretty easy to book Orlando, Vegas and the Big Island year round with some advance planning. The Lagoon Tower only has a limited number of rooms and the only tower out of the two at HHV that has two bedroom units under the old point structure. However it has become difficult to book Oahu even during non-peak periods (when the kids are in school) most likely due a combination of reasons such as the releasing of inventory, rental pool and competition for availability from the ever increasing HGVC membership base. 

You're obviously in the highest Elite member level since you bought all of your weeks pre-construction. I'm actually surprised that they don't do anything special for their highest Elite members (such as releasing inventory from the rental pool for at least one room occupied by the Elite Premier member). 

I would believe as a HGVC Premier Elite member that you have more clout within HGVC than a non-Elite members. Who at HGVC have you raised the Lagoon Tower availability issue to? What were their comments? 

In the past, I've received great responses via email to Member Services (see CONTACT US when you login for the email address). There's also a mailing address in the Member Guide under "Grievance" see page 141 in the 2010 Member Guide. I would simply state the problem you've been running into (don't go into a rant) and the observations on hgvc.com and hilton.com and ask them to look into the issue. If you have a desired outcome/result, I would also stated that in the email or letter as well. I would also request a follow up call once they have had a chance to review your issue.


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## sml2181 (Nov 21, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Talent I bow to superior Knowledge and experience with regards to ownership at the Lagoon Tower.  By the way on page 24 of 2010 guide state that "Club reservation window enables you to make plans well in advance".   For owners of multiple weeks taking people along (this year 11 family & customers) it might be a little hard to guarentee accommodations so they can book airfare when I can't assure them a place to stay till 3-1/2 to 4 months out.  Of course if you don't have multiple weeks or for that matter friends to take along it probably isn't an issue.  My point in all of this is that the program has changed from what it was to what it is now and in doing so HGVC is punishing multiple week owners at their own home resort  with the recent changes that have been made regarding availability...



The one thing I do not understand is the "punishing at their own home resort" part. 

From what I understand, you prefer not to use your home reservation window because you may need other units than the ones you own, but you do expect to get a priority treatment at your home resort during club reservations and or open season. (Please understand that English is not my first language which can certainly be an issue, so maybe my understanding has been incorrect.)

If I did get that right - then all I can say is that you are expecting too much. 

I too bought multiple weeks from HGVC and I just don't see that I am being punished at my home resort during club reservations. I do know that if I do not use my "own" weeks, but want to use anything during club reservations, I do have to work the system like everyone else, even at my home resort. 

Don't get me wrong. 
I am trying to understand your issues.
And I can see (but do not agree with) your point regarding the availability.


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## Harmina (Nov 21, 2010)

Last February I managed to reserve 2 consecutive weeks for this coming March
( 13 months out) in a one bedroom unit in the Kalia Tower. I have not seen any availability for the HGVC at the Hawaiian Village since.


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## Big Spike (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks ALWYSONVAC for your good reply.  I do book my 2 oceanfronts for 19,200 points.  But sometimes there are just occasions where  garden view 1 bdrms  or studios just work out better with people that are meeting for the first time in Hawaii ( some of my customers).    As i stayed many times before I've booked here many years in the past when Club season actually allowed anyone to book or change room types close to the 9 month window.  And  now I just read the post by Harmina where he was able to reserve Kalia for a 2 week stay in prime season 13 months out.  Hey Harmina how did you do that?


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## GregT (Nov 21, 2010)

Spike,

I think Harmina is referring to booking HHV via an RCI trade -- there was a big bulk deposit of HHV into RCI earlier this year, and I booked an October 2011 week at Lagoon (my first trip).

I echo AlwaysOnVac's comments and look forward to hearing HGVC's response.    

Best,

Greg


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## Harmina (Nov 21, 2010)

*Kalia Tower*

I just happened to be checking Hawaii as a search last February when I saw a one bedroom @ the Hilton Grand Vacation Club @ The Hawaiian Village ( Kalia Tower) sitting there for 2 consecutive weeks for March 2011. Those 2 weeks were the only weeks that I saw. I had never seen this resort come up with my RCI searches in the past, and have not seen it since. I put it on hold for 24 hours, released it & put it back on hold over a period of 4 days before I confirmed it.    
I managed to pull these 2 weeks with my Kahana Falls hotel & studio unit with a President's week deposit.  
I am really looking forward to this exchange...


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## alwysonvac (Nov 21, 2010)

Harmina said:


> I just happened to be checking Hawaii as a search last February when I saw a one bedroom @ the Hilton Grand Vacation Club @ The Hawaiian Village ( Kalia Tower) sitting there for 2 consecutive weeks for March 2011. Those 2 weeks were the only weeks that I saw. I had never seen this resort come up with my RCI searches in the past, and have not seen it since. I put it on hold for 24 hours, released it & put it back on hold over a period of 4 days before I confirmed it.
> I managed to pull these 2 weeks with my Kahana Falls hotel & studio unit with a President's week deposit.
> I am really looking forward to this exchange...



I thought all of the HGVC resorts had a 1 in 4 rule. Can you do consecutive RCI weeks in the Kalia Tower with the 1 in 4 rule?


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## Harmina (Nov 21, 2010)

Yes, you can do consecutive weeks when a resort has a 1 in 4 rule...I won't be able to exchange back in for 4 years. I think it will only apply to that particular resort. I believe I could still exchange into other HGVC resorts.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 21, 2010)

Harmina said:


> Yes, you can do consecutive weeks when a resort has a 1 in 4 rule...I won't be able to exchange back in for 4 years. I think it will only apply to that particular resort. I believe I could still exchange into other HGVC resorts.



Yes, you can exchange into the other HGVC resorts including the other HGVC towers at HHV. The HGVC 1 in 4 rule is per RCI resort (not the group).

I did a search. It appears that when a resort has a 1 in 4 rule the ability to book consecutive weeks can vary.  

From http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131540
_"Back when we had the RCI board "Madge" indicated that most resorts would allow concurrent or consecutive bookings - it didn't violate the 1 in 4 rule. She also indicated the only way to know for sure was to call in and check with a VC."_


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 21, 2010)

Harmina said:


> I just happened to be checking Hawaii as a search last February when I saw a one bedroom @ the Hilton Grand Vacation Club @ The Hawaiian Village ( Kalia Tower) sitting there for 2 consecutive weeks for March 2011. Those 2 weeks were the only weeks that I saw. I had never seen this resort come up with my RCI searches in the past, and have not seen it since. I put it on hold for 24 hours, released it & put it back on hold over a period of 4 days before I confirmed it.
> I managed to pull these 2 weeks with my Kahana Falls hotel & studio unit with a President's week deposit.
> I am really looking forward to this exchange...



Did you find this in week or in points?


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## Harmina (Nov 21, 2010)

Sandy - it was with weeks.


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## wmmmmm (Nov 23, 2010)

Wow.  I haven't been on TUG for a little while because I've been busy and even though I saw this link, I wasn't going to click on it.  However, I am so glad that I did because I just booked 10 days at the Lagoon tower!     The interesting part was that I called last month looking for ways to use a few hundred left over 2011 points by either adding a day or upgrading to the next category (I had a home reservation at the Lagoon tower), the rep said there was nothing.  At that time, the reservation screen was all white.  It's amazing how much is available now.  Thanks everyone.


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## Big Spike (Nov 23, 2010)

Wayne it is amazing to go from no availability to excessive in the period of a couple weeks.  I still maintain that this kind of manipulation doesn't help anyone.  It would have been a shame if after speaking to the rep initially you would have booked somewhere else and not seen this link.  But the way HGVC has it set up you have to check everyday and hope something shows up untill you can't wait anymore. Big Spike


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