# No worries - I'm sure the new points system will be a huge flop - here's why:



## WelcomeHome (Jun 25, 2010)

First I’d like to preface this thread by saying I’m sincerely happy for Marriott owners who enroll to become PremiumPlus owners - your 13,000 or more points will provide you with a huge competitive advantage to scoop up the best weeks at 13 months.

But keep in mind this represents only 5% of all Marriott owners (I know this because the Marriott documents state that “PremiumPlus” ownership can not exceed 5%.)

So I'm sure a HUGE part of Marriott’s plan was to sell more points to the other 95% of their formally loyal customer base who no longer has enough points to do any equivalent exchanges. Unfortunately, Marriott never anticipated the huge objections regarding “skimming” point allocations - just imagine the outrage and backlash when all 400,000 members realize they don’t have points to trade into equivalent resorts for their full week. That why I’m convinced Marriott hasn’t send any type of notice to all existing owners - they wanted to avoid a huge public relations disaster knowing that the new program would be poorly received by the ‘masses.” 

Most of us are debating if it’s even worth the enrollment fee of $595 to $1995 - I’m sure 99% of us would agree that’s it out of the question to also spend a minimum of $9,200 simply to preserve the benefits we were already entitled to prior to the introduction of the points system.   That means Marriott just lost 95% of their most reliable potential add-on customers (and since the other 5% already has at least 13,000 points, they have very little incentive to buy more).

That means their only remaining potential for new sales profits are with brand new and totally unsuspecting customers. And yes, I agree with everybody that the “first-time” buyers will be totally enchanted with the sales pitch of “you can travel to any of our 53 fabulous locations any time you want - including Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, Fourth of July, Spring break, etc.”

But while the initial reaction will be awe, reality will set in WAY BEFORE the sale can be accomplished. Here’s why:

1) Now that Marriott has a points system, the potential new customer will be evaluating the charts before purchase. Did you see the points required for those prime weeks in prime locations? With our present U.S. economy, how many people do you think will be able to afford that? Most people are presently worried about paying their mortgage and keeping their jobs - very few people can afford to splurge just because Marriott desperately needs profits right now. The sales person can’t even tout the benefits of being a “Premier” member, because that would cost a new owner exactly $59,800 to achieve (at $9.20/point). And forget about starting with “PremiumPlus” benefits - that will cost a "first-time" subscriber over ONE HUNDRED GRAND!

2) Then there’s the issue of “can the required points ever be increased?” That’s a legitimate question that almost anyone would ask before spending thousands of dollars. And because Marriott’s new program is so one-sided and greedy, the potential customer will soon release that there is NO LIMIT to the point increases Marriott will require in the future. How's that for squashing most sales?

3) Will I have Home resort priority??? - "Well, no, Mr. Customer - you won't even have a home resort!"

4) What happens when I want to sell it???  "Well, Mr. Customer - we haven't even figured that out yet." (Translation to anyone with half a brain: You're totally screwed).

5) Is there any limit or % cap on annual maintenance fees - “I’m afraid not, Mr. potential customer.”

6) Owner’s vote - Nope!

This is the information age - people are no longer easily fooled by vague & complicated sales presentations. New sales will be incredible difficult to accomplish. Why do you think Fletch and  several other successful salesmen left - salesmen are intelligent and shrewd and certainly know when to abandon a sinking ship.

How long do you think it will take before the stockholders smart screaming that the magnificent new program hasn’t come even close the capturing it’s profits projected as Marriott’s salvation?

The program has only been out for 1 week and look at the beating knowledgeable TUG owners have bombarded Marriott’s people with - the poor innocent sales reps with only 3 days training never expected this huge outlast of anger and frustration by the vast majority of existing owners. Imagine how difficult it must be for these poor sales reps to try to increase sales to a hostile audience - there moral level must be at an all time low after just one week. It’s not easy to sell a difficult product when you’re own confedence is in serious doubt.

So what’s my point? My point is for everyone to hold on. Marriott needs US for this program to work - and that means their going to have to make quite a few concessions to their “original one-sided plan” if they want their company to survive. I suspect we’ll hear about “additional new enhancements to the points program” for existing owners before the year is out.

I expected much more integrity from Marriott, but in the end I believe they will be forced to realize that they must address their customers needs in order to satisfy their own.

Best wishes,
David


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## dioxide45 (Jun 25, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> But keep in mind this represents only 5% of all Marriott owners (I know this because the Marriott documents state that “PremiumPlus” ownership can not exceed 5%.



Actually it is 5% of points in the system. So it is probably more like 3-4% of all owners, or even less...


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## KathyPet (Jun 25, 2010)

And i was going to enroll but I won't if I cannot include St. Kitts so they won't have my existing Marriott weeks to give anyone who might be looking for them


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## floyddl (Jun 25, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Actually it is 5% of points in the system. So it is probably more like 3-4% of all owners, or even less...



And a large percentage of these will be resale owners who Marriott who circumvented the high cost of direct purchases.  But they need their weeks in the points program.


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## jimf41 (Jun 25, 2010)

This thread is so outrageously false and misleading it's not worthy of a reply.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't think Marriott has invested all of this time and money into rolling out this new system only to see it fail.  I suspect that they will make whatever adjustments they feel are needed to make it work.  

I'm seeing the handwriting on the wall.  An increasing amount of inventory will go into the new system as well as anything they need to fuilfill requests from deeded II deposits.  I'm leaning toward joining because I don't think the best inventory will eventually be available for non-participants.  There comes a time when you just admit that they just got you over a barrell, and you take your blows and lick your wounds.


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 25, 2010)

*Sounds like I hit a nerve of truth, eh???*



jimf41 said:


> This thread is so outrageously false and misleading it's not worthy of a reply.



So then Why did you reply????

Best wishes to my fellow Long Islander,
David


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## GetawaysRus (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm not so sure about this line taken from the OP:

_"This is the information age - people are no longer easily fooled by vague & complicated sales presentations."_

I don't know about that.  PT Barnum was a pretty smart guy.


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## Dave M (Jun 25, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> This thread is so outrageously false....


I agree, Jim. The OP is one-sided and not at all a balanced view of the situation. Some examples: 





> I’m sure 99% of us would agree that’s it out of the question to also spend a minimum of $9,200 simply to preserve the benefits we were already entitled to prior to the introduction of the points system.


There is no need to spend a dime to preserve all of the rights that we now have. And as adequately posted in a number of places, it might well be easier to book prime weeks at our home resorts because of the high cost for points owners to reserve those prime weeks and for enrolled owners to reserve weeks at other than their home resorts using points.





> That means their only remaining potential for new sales profits are with brand new and totally unsuspecting customers.


Marriott will also make a ton of money from annual fees from weeks owners who enroll, from the breakage (or skimming or whatever you want to call it) when enrolled owners use their points, from points that expire unused, etc.





> Then there’s the issue of “can the required points ever be increased?”


Of course Marriott can increase the point requirements to reserve a week with points. However, Marriott is not totally stupid. They have set initial point requirements based on their expectations of value, availability and demand. Certainly, there will be adjustments over time (not starting until 2013). But Marriott wants this to work for their overall customer base, a huge part of which in the future will be points-only owners. 





> Will I have Home resort priority???


 No, points owners will not. So what? The sales presentation will make it clear that not having a home resort is not a problem. If the typical points buyer were to be a TUG veteran that values that past home resort priority, not having home resort priority might or might not be a problem. Since that won't be the case, score another point for Marriott. And for existing weeks owners, it might actually be easier to book at our home resorts, as I mentioned above.





> Is there any limit or % cap on annual maintenance fees?


I can't believe this is a serious question! There never has been any cap or % limit on Marriott MFs. Such a limit would be detrimental to resorts' and Marriott's ability to maintain the first class vacation experience that we are used to having. 





> How long do you think it will take before the stockholders smart screaming that the magnificent new program hasn’t come even close the capturing it’s profits projected as Marriott’s salvation?


The shareholders comments won't be a peep in the universe. If there are some parts of the program that need tweaking, Marriott will teak them. The economy is in the pits, but points programs are where timesharing is going and Marriott - fortunately for them - has joined the fast moving train. There will be a short-term bump in income as many of the existing 400,000 owners convert, including, as has been posted, many experienced owners here at TUG. (Remember that Marriott believes only about 25% of existing owners will convert.) And as the economy improves, Marriott will likely do well with the new program. Just because many here don't like the new system is not necessarily any indication that the program will be a failure. 

It's early. Yet many of those here who initially shot arrows at the new program are now saying they might or will join. I think that trend will continue because as has been documented in other threads, there are significant benefits for many, depending on their ownership situation, how they use their weeks and how they might use their weeks differently (e.g., reserving short stays) by enrolling.


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 25, 2010)

Dave M said:


> The OP is one-sided and not at all a balanced view of the situation.



I agree with you Dave - my view is one-sided on the existing owner's side - just like Marriott's new points program is one-sided and not a balanced view of the existing owner's needs.

Don't take my word for it - why don't you start a new "Are you happy with your Marriott ownership with the new points system" poll and see the results???? 

Best wishes,
David


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## Dave M (Jun 25, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> I agree with you Dave - my view if one-sided - just like Marriott's new points program is one sided and not a balanced view of the existing owner's needs.


The system obviously meets some existing owners' needs. We all knew (see the long pre-announcement speculation thread) that there would be winners and losers in the new program, just as there are when any points system is introduced in a weeks system. 

Marriott has attempted to balance the needs of existing owners, potential new points owners and Marriott's income statement. All are important to a big public corporation trying to balance customer needs and shareholder needs.

I'm not suggesting for a second that the new system is perfect. It's not. But it's also nowhere near as terrible as your post would make it seem to be.


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## wsrobinson (Jun 25, 2010)

Dave M said:


> I agree, Jim. The OP is one-sided and not at all a balanced view of the situation. Some examples: There is no need to spend a dime to preserve all of the rights that we now have. And as adequately posted in a number of places, it might well be easier to book prime weeks at our home resorts because of the high cost for points owners to reserve those prime weeks and for enrolled owners to reserve weeks at other than their home resorts using points.Marriott will also make a ton of money from annual fees from weeks owners who enroll, from the breakage (or skimming or whatever you want to call it) when enrolled owners use their points, from points that expire unused, etc.Of course Marriott can increase the point requirements to reserve a week with points. However, Marriott is not totally stupid. They have set initial point requirements based on their expectations of value, availability and demand. Certainly, there will be adjustments over time (not starting until 2013). But Marriott wants this to work for their overall customer base, a huge part of which in the future will be points-only owners.  No, points owners will not. So what? The sales presentation will make it clear that not having a home resort is not a problem. If the typical points buyer were to be a TUG veteran that values that past home resort priority, not having home resort priority might or might not be a problem. Since that won't be the case, score another point for Marriott. And for existing weeks owners, it might actually be easier to book at our home resorts, as I mentioned above.I can't believe this is a serious question! There never has been any cap or % limit on Marriott MFs. Such a limit would be detrimental to resorts' and Marriott's ability to maintain the first class vacation experience that we are used to having. The shareholders comments won't be a peep in the universe. If there are some parts of the program that need tweaking, Marriott will teak them. The economy is in the pits, but points programs are where timesharing is going and Marriott - fortunately for them - has joined the fast moving train. There will be a short-term bump in income as many of the existing 400,000 owners convert, including, as has been posted, many experienced owners here at TUG. (Remember that Marriott believes only about 25% of existing owners will convert.) And as the economy improves, Marriott will likely do well with the new program. Just because many here don't like the new system is not necessarily any indication that the program will be a failure.
> 
> It's early. Yet many of those here who initially shot arrows at the new program are now saying they might or will join. I think that trend will continue because as has been documented in other threads, there are significant benefits for many, depending on their ownership situation, how they use their weeks and how they might use their weeks differently (e.g., reserving short stays) by enrolling.



Thanks, Dave for the intelligent and reasonable reply.


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## LisaRex (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I'm seeing the handwriting on the wall.  An increasing amount of inventory will go into the new system as well as anything they need to fuilfill requests from deeded II deposits.



Actually, unless new sales can keep pace with resales (which I doubt), LESS inventory will be in the system as time goes by (because resales are excluded from joining the new program).  This will invariably spawn a cottage industry for resale/non-program owners only.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Actually, unless new sales can keep pace with resales (which I doubt), LESS inventory will be in the system as time goes by (because resales are excluded from joining the new program).  This will invariably spawn a cottage industry for resale/non-program owners only.



I am expecting Marriott to implement their own resale mechanism which will include a point buy-back option and, for sold out resorts, deeded units.  In fact, they might even loosen up their resales to include high demand units from non-sold out resorts just to add to the points inventory.  They also can make more use of ROFR to gain units being sold via external brokers.  Units going back to Marriott will go into the points inventory.  

I also suspect that external resales will diminish when informed buyers find out that they cannot join the points program.  As new sales are made into the points systems, and people convert their deeded weeks, less-and-less inventory will be available for II exchanges.  Remember, Marriott can also use weeks deposited into II to fill the demand of the points people.  So, their inventory includes the deposited weeks of the non-points people.  I don't think many high demand weeks at high demand resorts are going to be acquired via II exchanges once this system gets going.

Marriott is not going to let this program fail.  They will do what it takes to make it a success.


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## jimf41 (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I
> Marriott is not going to let this program fail.  They will do what it takes to make it a success.



I couldn't have said it better.


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## tahoeJoe (Jun 25, 2010)

Dave M said:


> I agree, Jim. The OP is one-sided and not at all a balanced view of the situation. There is no need to spend a dime to preserve all of the rights that we now have. And as adequately posted in a number of places, it might well be easier to book prime weeks at our home resorts because of the high cost for points owners to reserve those prime weeks and for enrolled owners to reserve weeks at other than their home resorts using points.Marriott will also make a ton of money from annual fees from weeks owners who enroll, from the breakage (or skimming or whatever you want to call it) when enrolled owners use their points, from points that expire unused, etc.Of course Marriott can increase the point requirements to reserve a week with points. However, Marriott is not totally stupid. They have set initial point requirements based on their expectations of value, availability and demand. Certainly, there will be adjustments over time (not starting until 2013). But Marriott wants this to work for their overall customer base, a huge part of which in the future will be points-only owners.  No, points owners will not. So what? The sales presentation will make it clear that not having a home resort is not a problem. If the typical points buyer were to be a TUG veteran that values that past home resort priority, not having home resort priority might or might not be a problem. Since that won't be the case, score another point for Marriott. And for existing weeks owners, it might actually be easier to book at our home resorts, as I mentioned above.I can't believe this is a serious question! There never has been any cap or % limit on Marriott MFs. Such a limit would be detrimental to resorts' and Marriott's ability to maintain the first class vacation experience that we are used to having. The shareholders comments won't be a peep in the universe. If there are some parts of the program that need tweaking, Marriott will teak them. The economy is in the pits, but points programs are where timesharing is going and Marriott - fortunately for them - has joined the fast moving train. There will be a short-term bump in income as many of the existing 400,000 owners convert, including, as has been posted, many experienced owners here at TUG. (Remember that Marriott believes only about 25% of existing owners will convert.) And as the economy improves, Marriott will likely do well with the new program. Just because many here don't like the new system is not necessarily any indication that the program will be a failure.
> 
> It's early. Yet many of those here who initially shot arrows at the new program are now saying they might or will join. I think that trend will continue because as has been documented in other threads, there are significant benefits for many, depending on their ownership situation, how they use their weeks and how they might use their weeks differently (e.g., reserving short stays) by enrolling.



This thread is so outrageously false and misleading it's not worthy of a reply. :hysterical: 

-TJ


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## Darlene (Jun 25, 2010)

At least when we go to Mountainside next week, and we start getting invited to hear about the wonderful new Destinations program I'm going to have all the right questions to ask the sales people thanks to David. 
It just warms my heart to bring so much happiness to sales people. So many timeshare presentations, so little time....


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## tahoeJoe (Jun 25, 2010)

*Kool-aid*



jimf41 said:


> This thread is so outrageously false and misleading it's not worthy of a reply.
> __________________
> Jim Freeman



Keep drinking the kool-aid. BTW, I think I will invest in Nike

-TJ


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Marriott is not going to let this program fail.  They will do what it takes to make it a success.





jimf41 said:


> I couldn't have said it better.





WelcomeHome said:


> I suspect we’ll hear about “additional new enhancements to the points program” for existing owners before the year is out.



I'm delighted we're all in agreement now!

Best wishes,
David


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## EducatedConsumer (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm running out of DSM-IV Diagnostic Codes for the lunacy......

It would be nice if Marriott would distill some of the very valid points that have arisen in this and other forums and begin offering a very aggressive series of webinars that address some of the valid concerns, issues and questions head-on.

Personally, we feel so uninformed about this new offering that we could not make an informed decision about joining. And there's no way in the world that I'm going to take Marriott's documents to the lake and spend the summer reading them. I guess the best I can hope for is that Cliff Notes will publish an annotated Study Guide by the fall.


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## d2r4s (Jun 25, 2010)

*no one has you over a barrell, only you, some times its cheaper to stay put or bale*

We originally bought Marriott and thought it was great, good name nice resorts wonderful locations and a very one sided organization who is not consumer friendly; that I learned from a former V.P. who runs a very fair time share sales program for another time share group.

We feel with the trade value with II (as long as you are not looking for another Marriott property) and the rewards value things where ok.  Now at 15 years feel we got our moneys worth and will look to sale or bale in a few years.  We first heard about the program and thought o.k. maybe this might be something.  Now I have looked and my two 2 bedroom weeks in Palm Desert won't get a 2 bedroom week in most other resorts, not even when its not prime season.  

We won't join and continue moving on.  There is nothing perfect about time sharing, and it still fits our need most of the time.


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## Pit (Jun 25, 2010)

Dave M said:


> We all knew (see the long pre-announcement speculation thread) that there would be winners and losers in the new program, just as there are when any points system is introduced in a weeks system.



I think people are genuinely surprised and disappointed by the high ratio of losers/winners.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

d2r4s said:


> We originally bought Marriott and thought it was great, good name nice resorts wonderful locations and a very one sided organization who is not consumer friendly; that I learned from a former V.P. who runs a very fair time share sales program for another time share group.
> 
> We feel with the trade value with II (as long as you are not looking for another Marriott property) and the rewards value things where ok.  Now at 15 years feel we got our moneys worth and will look to sale or bale in a few years.  We first heard about the program and thought o.k. maybe this might be something.  Now I have looked and my two 2 bedroom weeks in Palm Desert won't get a 2 bedroom week in most other resorts, not even when its not prime season.
> 
> We won't join and continue moving on.  There is nothing perfect about time sharing, and it still fits our need most of the time.



When I said they got us over a barrell, I didn't mean that I like it.  Having to buy a bunch of expensive points to be able to exchange back into a unit comparible to our own is kind of distasteful.  But, I have only owned my Marriott for 3 years.  So, I want to get value out of my investment, and I think the new program is a better way for me to achieve that than staying put.  For those who are satisfied in just returning to their own timeshare or trading into a non-Marriott timeshare, there is no advantage to joining the new program.

Baling might be an option for many.  Hopefully, you can get someone to buy your timeshare at something better than a firesale price.  I suspect, however, that many informed buyers are not going to be willing to buy it unless you sell it pretty cheap.  I personally would not buy a resale Marriott now at all.


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## Aviator621 (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Remember, Marriott can also use weeks deposited into II to fill the demand of the points people.  So, their inventory includes the deposited weeks of the non-points people.  I don't think many high demand weeks at high demand resorts are going to be acquired via II exchanges once this system gets going.



This remains the one point I am still most curious/concerned about, and I continue to see conflicting information on the various threads as to whether this is true or not.  Has this actually been confirmed or is it still an interpretation of the wording in the program documents?


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

Aviator621 said:


> This remains the one point I am still most curious/concerned about, and I continue to see conflicting information on the various threads as to whether this is true or not.  Has this actually been confirmed or is it still an interpretation of the wording in the program documents?



The primary place I have seen it (other than here in TUG postings) is the FAQ on the MVC site:

"Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, *and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.*"


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> First I’d like to preface this thread by saying I’m sincerely happy for Marriott owners who enroll to become PremiumPlus owners - your 13,000 or more points will provide you with a huge competitive advantage to scoop up the best weeks at 13 months.
> 
> But keep in mind this represents only 5% of all Marriott owners (I know this because the Marriott documents state that “PremiumPlus” ownership can not exceed 5%.)
> 
> ...



From what I understand from the people I've talked to, you've missed Marriott's biggest point. They didn't design this new program for existing owners. It's designed for new buyers. Now those new buyers could be exisiting owners who want into their new program but, overall it's not designed for old owners to convert. 

It will only flop if their salesmen can't sell it. If they can sell it, it will be a success even if there isn't one single exisiting owner that joins.


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## mjbaran (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> When I said they got us over a barrell, I didn't mean that I like it.  Having to buy a bunch of expensive points to be able to exchange back into a unit comparible to our own is kind of distasteful.  *But, I have only owned my Marriott for 3 years. * *So, I want to get value out of my investment, and I think the new program is a better way for me to achieve that than staying put.*  For those who are satisfied in just returning to their own timeshare or trading into a non-Marriott timeshare, there is no advantage to joining the new program.
> 
> Baling might be an option for many.  Hopefully, you can get someone to buy your timeshare at something better than a firesale price.  I suspect, however, that many informed buyers are not going to be willing to buy it unless you sell it pretty cheap.  I personally would not buy a resale Marriott now at all.



I am also an owner for 3 years and appreciate getting VALUE for my investment. This year (2010) I have taken my two weeks and have exchanged for 4 (yes, FOUR) weeks into other Marriott properties (min 1bdr full kitchen, sometimes 2 bdr). Only one week is at my home resort. This is 14 days of timeshare ownership exchanged for 28 days in Marriott timeshare resorts. Under the new points system this would have cost me 7800 points (based on actual resort and dates) but my 2 weeks are valued at 4775 points. It would be difficult to convince me there is VALUE in the new points system. I'm likely not to enroll.

The new points system reasonably fair if you are willing to spend $5000 (pick any number) and get $5000 in return. VALUE is the difference between what you spend and what you get. If I spent money to get two timeshare weeks and effectively utilized four weeks, that's two weeks of value. You can put a dollar number to that. Can you show me how this level of value can be accomplished in the points system without getting ridiculous about Sunday through Thursday at dog resorts in the worst season?

If you are willing to accept one for one ($5000 for $5000) then points is probably right for you.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 25, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> First I’d like to preface this thread by saying I’m sincerely happy for Marriott owners who enroll to become PremiumPlus owners - your 13,000 or more points will provide you with a huge competitive advantage to scoop up the best weeks at 13 months.
> 
> But keep in mind this represents only 5% of all Marriott owners (I know this because the Marriott documents state that “PremiumPlus” ownership can not exceed 5%.)
> 
> ...



You couldn't be more wrong.  This program will be very successful for Marriott.  The saavy timeshare exchangers will likely be the losers.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

mjbaran said:


> I am also an owner for 3 years and appreciate getting VALUE for my investment. This year (2010) I have taken my two weeks and have exchanged for 4 (yes, FOUR) weeks into other Marriott properties (min 1bdr full kitchen, sometimes 2 bdr). Only one week is at my home resort. This is 14 days of timeshare ownership exchanged for 28 days in Marriott timeshare resorts. Under the new points system this would have cost me 7800 points (based on actual resort and dates) but my 2 weeks are valued at 4775 points. It would be difficult to convince me there is VALUE in the new points system. I'm likely not to enroll.



For me, value is being able to exchange for good weeks at good resorts.  I believe that the ability of non-members to continue to do that in upcoming years will keep diminishing.  Your statements would make sense if Marriott were not implementing the new program.  But, since they are, you are probably going to find it increasingly difficult to continue to get the kind of exchanges you have gotten in the past.  I could be wrong about that because it will depend upon where to are exchanging into.  I'm going to join because it seems to me that not doing so will handicap me on exchanges a few years down the road.


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## cruisin (Jun 26, 2010)

Marriott will make a ton of money on this, I know many savvy Timeshare owners who this system does not make any sense for them to join, and yet they are because they do not want to feel like they are being left behind. If they are willing to join this, can you believe how many of the 95% of uninformed owners will join. Watch Marriott stock from the announcement date forward. Pure profit, they have sold nothing, and they get to skim off of the owners in perpetuity, control all the HOAs. Yes, mostly losers, a few winners, and 1 Grand Champion!!


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## New To Timeshares (Jun 26, 2010)

*Went to a presentation on the 20th.*

This is what I experienced this week.

I am a non owner, but was staying at the Grand Chateau this week and went to the presentation on the 20th.  The salesman pushed the idea of points as a great benefit, but was very vague about the true value of points.  They did not have a complete chart of point costs for each resort, and tried to avoid questions about booking at peak times. 
When it came down to purchasing points, the minimium was 1500, but the salesman said 3000 point was all we needed to have 10-14 days per year.  Like I said before, they did not have a complete list of values, all they had was a piece of paper that showed about a half dozen properties.  When we asked for a cost for the Grand Chateau, he said he wasn't sure, but that 3000 would be able to cover atleast a week in a 2 bedroom.
When I questioned peak time booking, he said it would be easy to book any resort over a holiday, because there are no more gold or platinum weeks.  I said that would make it more difficult to book, because everyone would be able to get a reservation on peak weeks, but he argued that it would actually make it easier.  He also could not say how trading with Interval International would work.
I did not buy, because the program was so new and I wanted to evaluate it with a forum like this one, but I did sign up for their encore package, I will get another 4 nights in Vegas for $500.  The more I learn about the new program, the more the old system sounds better.  I think this system is making it more affordable to become a timeshare member, but when the new members do not actually own a piece of a building, they may not take good care of it.


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## taffy19 (Jun 26, 2010)

New To Timeshares said:


> This is what I experienced this week.
> 
> I am a non owner, but was staying at the Grand Chateau this week and went to the presentation on the 20th. The salesman pushed the idea of points as a great benefit, but was very vague about the true value of points. They did not have a complete chart of point costs for each resort, and tried to avoid questions about booking at peak times.
> When it came down to purchasing points, the minimium was 1500, but the salesman said 3000 point was all we needed to have 10-14 days per year. Like I said before, they did not have a complete list of values, all they had was a piece of paper that showed about a half dozen properties. When we asked for a cost for the Grand Chateau, he said he wasn't sure, but that 3000 would be able to cover atleast a week in a 2 bedroom.
> ...


Welcome to TUG as I see it is your first post.  Also interesting to read the experience of a person who is not a timeshare owner but took a presentation. It must be very confusing but you seem to have had a salesman who wasn't very well prepared either.

You would think that most people would like to see a few point charts of the resorts they would like to visit one day, if they were interested in the program.

There were only a few charts highlighted on the website too as an example, when I checked the other day. Did they let you look at a movie where the program was explained in detail? They used to do that at one time. They are done by a pro.


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Not a chance that the points system will fail*



dougp26364 said:


> From what I understand from the people I've talked to, you've missed Marriott's biggest point. They didn't design this new program for existing owners. It's designed for new buyers. Now those new buyers could be exisiting owners who want into their new program but, overall it's not designed for old owners to convert.
> 
> It will only flop if their salesmen can't sell it. If they can sell it, it will be a success even if there isn't one single exisiting owner that joins.



This is an important note.  The new system is NOT designed to lure in existing owners - although they are happy to get that income as well - it is a new way to sell the massive existing inventory Marriott found itself stuck with when the economy turned on them. 

As such they have set up a whole new sales model going forward with the Trust. That move cannot be reversed once one share is sold.  With or without Marriotts participation the Trust and the points derived from it will live on baring a vote by the members to end it. 

Can it be sold? Based on the posts here on TUG they are already doing a good job of that to a group (existing owners) they aren't even targeting!  Sure the sales people are having to face some tough questions but that is just training. The potential new customer that will make up the vast majority of sales contact would be clueless to ask the questions even a part time TUG participant would have ready.  

If your plan is to "wait this out" and think it is a temporary thing I'd revisit that idea.   Marriott invested serious money and effort into this and it will not be going away.


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## aka Julie (Jun 26, 2010)

New To Timeshares said:


> When we asked for a cost for the Grand Chateau, he said he wasn't sure, but that 3000 would be able to cover atleast a week in a 2 bedroom.



Well he lied.  I checked the points chart for Grand Chateau.  For a 2 bedroom for a week, the minimum number of points to book is 3,350 and the max is 4,625 (New Year's Eve week).  Heck, it takes 3,175 points for a 1 bedroom for New Year's Eve week (7 days).  Of course, most folks might not even want to stay in Vegas for 7 days.  And with the new Vacation Club ownership you are not "buying" Grand Chateau, you are buying a certain # of Club Points to use at a certain # of Marriott Resorts, plus the new flexible options

Also, a Vacation Club Points chart for 2011 and 2012 is available to current owners.  It just shows # of points (not what those points cost but you can figure that out).

I've saved the chart as a PDF file, but it's too large to attach (per TUG limitations.)  Send me a PM with your e-mail address if you want me to e-mail to you.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> This is an important note.  The new system is NOT designed to lure in existing owners - although they are happy to get that income as well - it is a new way to sell the massive existing inventory Marriott found itself stuck with when the economy turned on them.
> 
> As such they have set up a whole new sales model going forward with the Trust. That move cannot be reversed once one share is sold.  With or without Marriotts participation the Trust and the points derived from it will live on baring a vote by the members to end it.
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure they're selling it to existing owners as much as it's Tugger's ability to look at every angle to come to a conclusion if they can work this system to their advantage. 

Personally, I'm not as sold on Marriott's point system for exisiting owners as I am the right to join while maintaining control of my week and how it's used. This is the one area where Marriott appears to be unique. At the moment, I can move between weeks based exchanges, which I have learned how to maximize for our benefit, and points exchanges, which will have it's own learning curve.

New owners won't know the difference. The problem I see right out of the gate is Marriott has done a horrible job preparing it's sales force. It's unforgivable for any salesmen to not know the points required for the resort he's sitting in. That would be the basis for the total points package he's trying to sell. Not having a complete points chart along with descriptions and pictures of every resort Marriott has is also an unforgivable sales mistake IMHO. 

The salesmans job is to find out what the couple likes and sell them what they like. They shouldn't be selling blind amounts of points on the promise that a certain amount will get you almost any 2 bedroom unit in the system. If they like MGC and want to stay there during peak times, GREAT. Here's what it takes. Can't afford that? Cut it in half and stay EOY at MGC or stay every year at any of these fine resorts. The salesman shouldn't even mention seasons to a new buyer because they don't have a concept of seasons. Mentioning seasons only serves to add another confusing subject when you're trying to close someone in 120 minutes or less. 

If the program fails to turn the sales Marriott is expecting it will be because of upper management incompetence and not the program itself. This points program, if you look at it solely based on the points program, isn't that much different than any other points based ownership in existance. The difference is in how Marriott decided to offer current owners home resort advantage in booking. Essentially, if you want your home resort in the season you purchased, you book usign the weeks based system rather than points. If you want to reserve a specific view and don't mind paying the price in points, you can do that as well. The biggest difference I see, and I've said it before, is Marriott is not giving existing owners the number of points required to reserve the same week, resulting in a points profit for Marriott every time an existing owner makes a points based exchange. Existing owners just need to realize this giong in. 

This sytem takes considerably more work to get the most out of than my other two points based systems. Essentially, it's an unbalanced system. I would like to have seen Marriott simply offer a points overlay system and give owners enough points to reserve a week in their system but, that would have defeated their purpose. The new system free's Marriott from seasons and allows them to "reallocate" the number of points to reserve any week at a resort based on current demand. In Vegas, that means reallocating for major events or conventions. They can raise the points required for one week that has  become more popular and decrease the points required for another week that now has less demand. They couldn't stick with seasons or points averages and do this. 

What they COULD have done and SHOULD have done was give existing owners tha average of the number of points in a season. That would have givne them a solid foundation and story to work from and, IMHO would have been fairer to existing owners. That one issue still leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and will be the one thing that keeps me from routinely depositing my week into the points side of the exchange system.


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Trade has no monetary value*



mjbaran said:


> I am also an owner for 3 years and appreciate getting VALUE for my investment. This year (2010) I have taken my two weeks and have exchanged for 4 (yes, FOUR) weeks into other Marriott properties (min 1bdr full kitchen, sometimes 2 bdr). Only one week is at my home resort. This is 14 days of timeshare ownership exchanged for 28 days in Marriott timeshare resorts. Under the new points system this would have cost me 7800 points (based on actual resort and dates) but my 2 weeks are valued at 4775 points. It would be difficult to convince me there is VALUE in the new points system. I'm likely not to enroll.
> 
> The new points system reasonably fair if you are willing to spend $5000 (pick any number) and get $5000 in return. VALUE is the difference between what you spend and what you get. If I spent money to get two timeshare weeks and effectively utilized four weeks, that's two weeks of value. You can put a dollar number to that. Can you show me how this level of value can be accomplished in the points system without getting ridiculous about Sunday through Thursday at dog resorts in the worst season?



The value you feel the old system gave you was never guaranteed. Yes it existed, but not by anyone's design (for owners of the right times/resorts) but a fortuitous accident you fell into.  When that type of thing occurs many look at the opportunity to exploit it on the owners side and end it on the sales side. One thing that is certain is that non-guaranteed things will be subject to change.  

The sales side doesn't even have to change the pitch - just fine tune it. In fact it becomes a guaranteed value - the ability to use your points to trade to other resorts AND know what it take to that with the help/guidance of the seller   - rather than a non-guaranteed process involving a third party. So "you can use II to trade to all these resorts when you travel" becomes "Marriott Points lets you travel to all these resorts with a single contact at Marriott".  Which one sounds better to you as a new buyer? 

The value has to come from the deeded rights you purchase. That was a week at a single resort in the past and is now a pile of points to be used across the whole system if you buy today or retro your old week into the new system. Again a no brainer sale for most half way decent sales folk.  You can still use your rights - 7 days at your resort - to use or parlay into more via a trade system.  It just may not be as likely to happen as it used to be as Marriott redirects the majority of their deposits to the newer and profit creating internal system rather than a third party exchange.


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## brigechols (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> The primary place I have seen it (other than here in TUG postings) is the FAQ on the MVC site:
> 
> "Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?
> 
> Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, *and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.*"



The Buyers Guide 2010 to the Interval International Exchange Program for members of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Program and Other Marriott Owners states the following in the Section entitled "Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities", Paragraph 1:

_Where a requested internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal exchange requests through II and , where the necessary inventory is or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Manager._


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## puckmanfl (Jun 26, 2010)

good morning....

 Let me make sure I understand this correctly!!!  MVCD has the ability to do exchanges with II to provide inventory for a "wait listed" points internal exchange request.  Does this not violate II's policy of using exchanges for rental or re-exchange????  The unit MVCD obtains in this transaction is being "rented" to the points customer.  The currency is not $$$ but points. What are the legalities here.  If not considered a "rental" at the very least it is a re-exchange as the points owner either turned in points or converted a unit to points to get this property!!!

please help me understand!!!

If I confirmed an exchange in II then listed the unit for rent or exchange on TUG I would be in the "chateau bow-wow" with II


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## mjbaran (Jun 26, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> The value you feel the old system gave you was never guaranteed. Yes it existed, but not by anyone's design (for owners of the right times/resorts) but a fortuitous accident you fell into.  When that type of thing occurs many look at the opportunity to exploit it on the owners side and end it on the sales side. One thing that is certain is that non-guaranteed things will be subject to change.
> 
> The sales side doesn't even have to change the pitch - just fine tune it. In fact it becomes a guaranteed value - the ability to use your points to trade to other resorts AND know what it take to that with the help/guidance of the seller   - rather than a non-guaranteed process involving a third party. So "you can use II to trade to all these resorts when you travel" becomes "Marriott Points lets you travel to all these resorts with a single contact at Marriott".  Which one sounds better to you as a new buyer?
> 
> The value has to come from the deeded rights you purchase. That was a week at a single resort in the past and is now a pile of points to be used across the whole system if you buy today or retro your old week into the new system. Again a no brainer sale for most half way decent sales folk.  You can still use your rights - 7 days at your resort - to use or parlay into more via a trade system.  It just may not be as likely to happen as it used to be as Marriott redirects the majority of their deposits to the newer and profit creating internal system rather than a third party exchange.



I completely agree with your comments. Guaranteed or not, I still experienced VALUE for my two ownership weeks. Was it using (exploiting) the system, yes. My point is that similar opportunities do not exist using points. Marriott has done an excellent job of filling the cracks or loopholes in the old weeks system. I never said the points system is unfair, just not as exploitable as the old weeks based system. Although I could enroll and still choose weeks not points, I agree, there will be diminished opportunities.

I think we are on the same page.


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## camachinist (Jun 26, 2010)

Wrt the reservation system, in general, II and Marriott can do pretty much anything they want, whether it be back-end deals or clear and transparent alterations of historical (or current) policy. They own the chips (the reservation system) and the GDC's are very liberal about what they can do, purposely. IMO, it's what they actually *do* which will determine my ulitimate disposition as well as that of other interested and/or concerned owners. All that is nebulous for now. They can *say* anything. Personally, I'll wait to see how the words and actions match up.


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## jtp1947 (Jun 26, 2010)

I have read most all of the threads on this topic and still cannot make a decision and would like some of the experts out there to help me out.  We own one developer week in Maui, 2bdrm/of in the original building and that is our only week.  That week is worth 6250 points.  We never trade or request points, we go each summer alternating taking our son/daughter in law and grandkids, and the next year our daughter/son in law grandkids.  We buy their airline tickets.  Both of our kids are teachers with summer vacations. With all of their activities in the summer, out of 12 weeks we usually have two or three possible weeks to choose from.  We have always been able to get our desired week.  I feel we should not buy into the new system, am I missing something? Thanks for any advice.


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*The rules are for regular members not the anointed few*



puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> Let me make sure I understand this correctly!!!  MVCD has the ability to do exchanges with II to provide inventory for a "wait listed" points internal exchange request.  Does this not violate II's policy of using exchanges for rental or re-exchange????  The unit MVCD obtains in this transaction is being "rented" to the points customer.  The currency is not $$$ but points. What are the legalities here.  If not considered a "rental" at the very least it is a re-exchange as the points owner either turned in points or converted a unit to points to get this property!!!
> 
> ...



II can, and have proven over and over again will, make any special agreements they want with any group they want. They seem to have a passion for sweet agreements favoring big developers - always at the expense of the mere paying II member. Why worry about members when they willingly pay an annual fee to give up their time for free in the hope that nthe will get something of equal or better value back.  The fact that what is offered tends to be junk of far less value hasn't killed membership before so why should it kill II membership now? They go on creating more creative ways to have preferences granted to a group (Marriott & its new points system in this case) that fly in the face of the rules that apply to everyone else. They did that back in the days when II was temporarily able to suck DVC into the fold, although thankfully DVC realized the mistake that was and returned to RCI the first chance they had to get out when they allowed DVC to charge a strictly prohibited "exchange fee" to income exchange guests.

So it comes as no surprise that to keep Marriott from bolting entirely back to RCI they are willingly breaking the hard fast rule they impose on everyone else (NO RENTING of exchanged weeks) for Marriott to be OK with basically renting (although strictly speaking it isn't a rental as an individual would do, it is close enough to call it that) the weeks they claim, with priority of course, from the individual member exchange pool.


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## ondeadlin (Jun 26, 2010)

There's always the possibility that everybody's right.

I agree with Boca that the real losers are a result of this system are the savvy Marriott timeshare exchangers.

I agree with Doug that the program is designed for new sales and shows little or not consideration for current customers, aside from perhaps being structured to encourage them to buy more points.

But I also think it's likely the program struggles as it's currently structured and - as a result - goes through at least one major reconfiguration. The MF-to-price ratio is simply too high. It's actually very similar to the ratios that are destroying Starwood resale values right now. No matter how attractive the properties or the system are, the MFs are a big problem as currently constituted.

I expect they'll find a way to mitigate this at some point, although I'm not sure how.


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*No need for more*



jtp1947 said:


> I have read most all of the threads on this topic and still cannot make a decision and would like some of the experts out there to help me out.  We own one developer week in Maui, 2bdrm/of in the original building and that is our only week.  That week is worth 6250 points.  We never trade or request points, we go each summer alternating taking our son/daughter in law and grandkids, and the next year our daughter/son in law grandkids.  We buy their airline tickets.  Both of our kids are teachers with summer vacations. With all of their activities in the summer, out of 12 weeks we usually have two or three possible weeks to choose from.  We have always been able to get our desired week.  I feel we should not buy into the new system, am I missing something? Thanks for any advice.



Sound like you plan on going back to your home resort the majority of the time. When you do a trade you seem comfortable with the "old" options. Based on those key items I don't feel you need to spend the money to join the points system you aren't likely to use much if at all. You own what you want - just use it.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 26, 2010)

good morning

Jon...

if MVCD is not "renting" the week obtained from II, they at the very least are "re-exchanging' it. 

I wonder if the legal eagles here (david) could chime in!!!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

New To Timeshares said:


> They did not have a complete chart of point costs for each resort,





aka Julie said:


> Also, a Vacation Club Points chart for 2011 and 2012 is available to current owners.  It just shows # of points (not what those points cost but you can figure that out).
> 
> I've saved the chart as a PDF file, but it's too large to attach (per TUG limitations.)  Send me a PM with your e-mail address if you want me to e-mail to you.





dougp26364 said:


> The salesmans job is to find out what the couple likes and sell them what they like. They shouldn't be selling blind amounts of points on the promise that a certain amount will get you almost any 2 bedroom unit in the system. If they like MGC and want to stay there during peak times, GREAT. Here's what it takes. Can't afford that? Cut it in half and stay EOY at MGC or stay every year at any of these fine resorts. The salesman shouldn't even mention seasons to a new buyer because they don't have a concept of seasons. Mentioning seasons only serves to add another confusing subject when you're trying to close someone in 120 minutes or less.



I don't understand why the salesman would claim to not have a points chart for all resorts. Apparently they don't want people to know the true price of ownership.


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 26, 2010)

Of course I realize that the new points system is the wave of the future and is here to stay - Marriott had to switch to a points system in order to compete.

What I am saying is that the new program they currently introduced will never provide the "silver bullet" Marriott will need for it to be successful - the current program is way to vague & obviously one-sided to triumph over very wary educated consumers in this economy.

In order to reverse what I believe will be a huge initial flop and very large disappointment to Marriott stockholders, the program if going to have to include several "special offers" and enhancements which address the customers needs - not just Marriotts. Because this type of superficial sales pitch offers only dreams with absolutely no guarantees or price protections at all, Marriott is going to have an extremely hard time finding takers.

As a result, they're going to need the support and conversions from many of us original deeded owners that they have currently disregarded with skimming, etc. By the end of this year (when actual sales show gruesome initial results), I believe Marriott will have no choice but to "embrace" it's existing 400,000 owner base with a much more fair and mutually beneficial program to win their conversions.

Marriott is going to quickly have to "satisfy customer needs" for this program to succeed and I'm hoping Marriott will realize "you can get more bees with honey" - that's how they became successful in the first place.

I realize this is a controversial topic here  and tensions run high (and I'm sorry if I offended anyone), BUT I sincerely believe that we existing owners are holding many of the cards needed for Marriott to succeed with this.

Best wishes,
David


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

cruisin said:


> Marriott will make a ton of money on this, I know many savvy Timeshare owners who this system does not make any sense for them to join, and yet they are because they do not want to feel like they are being left behind. If they are willing to join this, can you believe how many of the 95% of uninformed owners will join. Watch Marriott stock from the announcement date forward. Pure profit, they have sold nothing, and they get to skim off of the owners in perpetuity, control all the HOAs. Yes, mostly losers, a few winners, and 1 Grand Champion!!



It's better than this for Marriott.  They have effectively devalued everyone's timeshare with the so-called "skimming" that everyone's talking about.  Under the new system, to be able to gain the same degree of tradeability that one formerly had, he will have to cough-up the $9200 for the extra 1000 points.  I have no clue how many are going to do this, but I suspect a significant number will.  That is quite a cash infusion for Marriott.

A few months ago when this new program was being debated here on TUG, I felt that implementing a new program like this in a bad economy was a very bad idea for Marriott.  Now, I am seeing it as a stroke of genius on their part.  This is going to get them a pretty nice wad of cash.


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## alchook (Jun 26, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> First I’d like to preface this thread by saying I’m sincerely happy for Marriott owners who enroll to become PremiumPlus owners - your 13,000 or more points will provide you with a huge competitive advantage to scoop up the best weeks at 13 months.
> 
> But keep in mind this represents only 5% of all Marriott owners (I know this because the Marriott documents state that “PremiumPlus” ownership can not exceed 5%.)
> David



Are you sure?

According to the FAQ's on the website: _*Premier and Premier Plus status* will afford you advantages related to reservation windows and Vacation Club Points requirements for reservations 13 months in advance._


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## icydog (Jun 26, 2010)

floyddl said:


> And a large percentage of these will be resale owners who Marriott who circumvented the high cost of direct purchases.  But they need their weeks in the points program.



That's me--- and I am very happy about it too. I own three resold contracts and two developer weeks. That's five weeks worth of maintenance fees and I pay a lot of money in MFs!!! Therefore, I do not need to apologize for having some kind of status. I probably will never use it. But its nice to have.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> Let me make sure I understand this correctly!!!  MVCD has the ability to do exchanges with II to provide inventory for a "wait listed" points internal exchange request.  Does this not violate II's policy of using exchanges for rental or re-exchange????  The unit MVCD obtains in this transaction is being "rented" to the points customer.  The currency is not $$$ but points. What are the legalities here.  If not considered a "rental" at the very least it is a re-exchange as the points owner either turned in points or converted a unit to points to get this property!!!



I've heard over-and-over that there is virtually no way to trade into a Starwood property during a high demand season through II.  That is supposedly because Starwood sucks up all the desireable deposited inventory and substitutes low demand inventory in its place.  (Anyone knowledge on how they do this is welcome to respond.)

As far as I can see, Marriott will effectively be doing something similar in pulling inventory out of II to fill points requests.  So, the non-enrolled people are probably not going to find as many good exchanges through II as they formerly were able to find (i.e., Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges).


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## icydog (Jun 26, 2010)

Dave M said:


> I agree, Jim. The OP is one-sided and not at all a balanced view of the situation. Some examples: There is no need to spend a dime to preserve all of the rights that we now have. And as adequately posted in a number of places, it might well be easier to book prime weeks at our home resorts because of the high cost for points owners to reserve those prime weeks and for enrolled owners to reserve weeks at other than their home resorts using points.Marriott will also make a ton of money from annual fees from weeks owners who enroll, from the breakage (or skimming or whatever you want to call it) when enrolled owners use their points, from points that expire unused, etc.Of course Marriott can increase the point requirements to reserve a week with points. However, Marriott is not totally stupid. They have set initial point requirements based on their expectations of value, availability and demand. Certainly, there will be adjustments over time (not starting until 2013). But Marriott wants this to work for their overall customer base, a huge part of which in the future will be points-only owners.  No, points owners will not. So what? The sales presentation will make it clear that not having a home resort is not a problem. If the typical points buyer were to be a TUG veteran that values that past home resort priority, not having home resort priority might or might not be a problem. Since that won't be the case, score another point for Marriott. And for existing weeks owners, it might actually be easier to book at our home resorts, as I mentioned above.I can't believe this is a serious question! There never has been any cap or % limit on Marriott MFs. Such a limit would be detrimental to resorts' and Marriott's ability to maintain the first class vacation experience that we are used to having. The shareholders comments won't be a peep in the universe. If there are some parts of the program that need tweaking, Marriott will teak them. The economy is in the pits, but points programs are where timesharing is going and Marriott - fortunately for them - has joined the fast moving train. There will be a short-term bump in income as many of the existing 400,000 owners convert, including, as has been posted, many experienced owners here at TUG. (Remember that Marriott believes only about 25% of existing owners will convert.) And as the economy improves, Marriott will likely do well with the new program. Just because many here don't like the new system is not necessarily any indication that the program will be a failure.
> 
> It's early. Yet many of those here who initially shot arrows at the new program are now saying they might or will join. I think that trend will continue because as has been documented in other threads, there are significant benefits for many, depending on their ownership situation, how they use their weeks and how they might use their weeks differently (e.g., reserving short stays) by enrolling.




Excellent post Dave.. Thank you.


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## l2trade (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't understand why the salesman would claim to not have a points chart for all resorts. Apparently they don't want people to know the true price of ownership.



We show the USAGE BASED ON 1,500 POINTS PURCHASED chart to pitch the new point system.  That is most likely what this salesman showed.  The examples are misleading, IMHO.  Most folks new to timeshares don't recognize these locations as overbuilt and/or lower demand.  The guest must insist for the sales rep to 'search and find' a copy of the full points chart pdf for all resorts.  If they do, the sales rep will typically walk the guest through it, pointing out the best bargains that reflect the interests the guest has shared and daydreaming with the guest about those future trips.  This works well when the guest talks a lot about Las Vegas, Orlando & Phoenix

Here are the examples from the chart - 
USAGE BASED ON 1,500 POINTS PURCHASED 
Las Vegas - Weekend Getaways 
2 Weekends in Las Vegas 
Studio Travel in May and September 
Grand Chateau Las Vegas, NV 
2 Nights (Sat-Sun) from May 28, 2011 (week 22) Studio = 575 points 
2 Nights (Sat-Sun) from September 17, 2011 (week 38) Studio = 575 points 

Las Vegas 5 Nights in Las Vegas 
1 Bedroom Travel in January 
Grand Chateau Las Vegas, NV
5 Nights (Mon-Fri) from January 10, 2011 (week 2) 1 bedroom = 1,450 points 

Lake Tahoe 
7 Nights in Lake Tahoe 
1 Bedroom Travel in November 
Timber Lodge Lake Tahoe, CA 
7 Nights from November 5 2011 (week 45) 1 bedroom = 1,500 points 

Phoenix 
7 Nights in Phoenix 
1 Bedroom Travel in January 
Canyon Village Phoenix, AZ 
7 Nights from January 15, 2011 (week 3) 1 bedroom = 1,450 points


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There is no need to spend a dime to preserve all of the rights that we now have. And as adequately posted in a number of places, it might well be easier to book prime weeks at our home resorts because of the high cost for points owners to reserve those prime weeks and for enrolled owners to reserve weeks at other than their home resorts using points.



Hmmmmm.  It might become easier.  It might also become harder. Has it been established whether there will be two pots of inventory at every resort, a pot for owners and a pot for enrolled exchangers?  If there will be two pots, then there should not be much change for owners as far as getting reasonably good weeks at their home resort.  If, however, everyone is competing for the same weeks, the enrolled premier and premier-plus people are going to get the best weeks (at least, the weeks they consider the best).  After that, it will depend upon how early one reserves his week when the reservation window opens.  This is especially true at high demand resorts in high demand locations like Maui.


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## camachinist (Jun 26, 2010)

> Lake Tahoe
> 7 Nights in Lake Tahoe
> 1 Bedroom Travel in November
> Timber Lodge Lake Tahoe, CA
> 7 Nights from *November 5 2011* (week 45) 1 bedroom = 1,500 points



18 month rule? 



> If there will be two pots, then there should not be much change for owners as far as getting reasonably good weeks at their home resort.



The only way 'two pots' will work to retain current parity is if the resort owners have a time advantage. Currently, I'm not seeing that. Any other scenario increases competition for the same use/periods over current competition which, at my resort, is pretty brutal anyway.


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## icydog (Jun 26, 2010)

jtp1947 said:


> I have read most all of the threads on this topic and still cannot make a decision and would like some of the experts out there to help me out.  We own one developer week in Maui, 2bdrm/of in the original building and that is our only week.  That week is worth 6250 points.  We never trade or request points, we go each summer alternating taking our son/daughter in law and grandkids, and the next year our daughter/son in law grandkids.  We buy their airline tickets.  Both of our kids are teachers with summer vacations. With all of their activities in the summer, out of 12 weeks we usually have two or three possible weeks to choose from.  We have always been able to get our desired week.  I feel we should not buy into the new system, am I missing something? Thanks for any advice.



Since you will not be needing any exchanges buying into the point system will have no value for you. So in your situation, you should NOT buy into the new point system.


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## l2trade (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> ...  If there will be two pots, then there should not be much change for owners as far as getting reasonably good weeks at their home resort.
> ...



IMHO, the two pots analogy is way too oversimplified from reality.  Instead, think of the inventory management system as the world's largest hamburger grill.  Every patty represents an owner in various stages of getting cooked.


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Hmmmmm.  It might become easier.  It might also become harder. Has it been established whether there will be two pots of inventory at every resort, a pot for owners and a pot for enrolled exchangers?  If there will be two pots, then there should not be much change for owners as far as getting reasonably good weeks at their home resort.  *If, however, everyone is competing for the same weeks, the enrolled premier and premier-plus people are going to get the best weeks *(at least, the weeks they consider the best).  After that, it will depend upon how early one reserves his week when the reservation window opens.  This is especially true at high demand resorts in high demand locations like Maui.



Yes, that's another ONE of several major problems here. From what it appears, Marriott has no problem raiding weeks from existing owner's inventory to accommodate the converts to their new points system.

That means that the Premier & Premier Plus members will get to take anything they want before the majority of even get a crack at a reservation. 
So if you're in the majority of owners that don't don't have at least 6,500 points or that can't book 2 consecutive weeks from your existing timeshares - you'll only be able to choose from what's left after the Premier & PremierPlus members pluck all the prime weeks. And Marriotts answer to all us loyal owners who can no longer effectively compete with the new system - that's simple - pay us lots more money to purchase the points that we have skimmed from you so you have a better chance at getting a good week.

In all fairness, no one is sure about this since NO ONE at Marriott has been able to give a definite answer yet. But since Marriott has stacked ALL the cards in their favor with this new program, I'll bet they'll have NO problem grabbing from existing owner's inventory - their new program offers NO protection from unlimited price increases and NO home resort priority or protection to existing weeks owners.

Best wishes,
David


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 26, 2010)

l2trade said:


> IMHO, the two pots analogy is way too oversimplified from reality.  Instead, think of the inventory management system as the world's largest hamburger grill.  Every patty represents an owner in various stages of getting cooked.



:hysterical: Excellent Analogy!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> Yes, that's another ONE of several major problems here. From what it appears, Marriott has no problem raiding weeks from existing owner's inventory to accommodate the converts to their new points system.
> 
> That means that the Premier & Premier Plus members will get to take anything they want before the majority of even get a crack at a reservation.
> So if you're in the majority of owners that don't don't have at least 6,500 points or that can't book 2 consecutive weeks from your existing timeshares - you'll only be able to choose from what's left after the Premier & PremierPlus owners pluck the prime weeks. And Marriotts answer to all us loyal owners who can no longer effectively compete with the new system - that's simple - pay us lots more money to purchase the points that we have skimmed from you so you have a better chance at getting a good week.
> ...



I still think the original resort governing documents cover the fact that no more than 50% of the reservable weeks can be confirmed at the 13 month mark. I don't think this basic fact has changed, has it?


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I still think the original resort governing documents cover the fact that no more than 50% of the reservable weeks can be confirmed at the 13 month mark. I don't think this basic fact has changed, has it?



That's one of the $60,000 questions, isn't it? I wonder why Marriott wouldn't immediately come out and tell us????????????

And once Marriott captures the majority of voting rights, they can do ANYTHING they want - can't they?


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## jerseygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I've heard over-and-over that there is virtually no way to trade into a Starwood property during a high demand season through II.  That is supposedly because Starwood sucks up all the desireable deposited inventory and substitutes low demand inventory in its place.  (Anyone knowledge on how they do this is welcome to respond.)



Here's how Starwood works with II, along with some history:

First, it's important to understand that some Starwood resorts are "mandatory" (resales are automatically enrolled in the Starwood Vacation Network) and some are "voluntary" (sounds like it's the owner's choice as to whether or not to enroll -- but, nope, it means resale buyers cannot join the network!).   Mandatory resorts retain a much higher percentage of their original value in the resale market (which isn't saying much these days, due to a combination of the economy and out-of-control maintenance fees).

The network documentation has always permitted Starwood to choose any week for deposit to II -- a Westin St John owner could end up with a mud week in Colorado as an II deposit.  

Non-network owners had to push a little but were always able to book any available week within their season and deposit it to II or RCI (the newest resorts are II only) ... until last summer.

Then, Starwood "enhanced" (never a good thing with Starwood!) the program for all owners -- network and non-network -- as follows:

-- New contract with II allows for the assignment of a "placeholder" that represents the average trading power of all weeks within a specific float season.

-- Overall, this was a positive for network owners, as at least they were assured that their own resort would be deposited (no more Colorado mud weeks for Westin St John owners)​
-- Overall, this was a negative for non-network owners as the blended/average trading power is always less than the most powerful weeks previously able to be booked and deposited.  Essentially, it means that those who use their weeks are more important than those who trade their weeks (despite the fact that all own equal deeds and pay equal maintenance fees).​
Resorts with LONG seasons were particularly hard hit in the new process.  For example, the original phase of Sheraton Desert Oasis in Phoenix was sold as float 1-52.  You can imagine that the placeholder representing "average" is not nearly as powerful as depositing a spring break/spring training week.

Okay ... enough background!

-- Since all we see when we make a deposit is a "placeholder," we have absolutely no idea which week is given to II.  All "balancing" is done behind the scenes.

-- Although our priority period is not as long as yours, we do have one ... and therefore can see bulk bankings.  History tells us that Starwood does not deposit prime weeks in these bulk bankings.

-- There are reports of people receiving prime weeks from ongoing requests, so it does appear that Starwood may be attempting to match requests behind the scenes.

-- For many years, it was not at all unusual for a one-bedroom Broadway Plantation (worth 37000 Starwood points) to trade into a two-bedroom Maui (worth 148,100 Starwood points) by using II.  (II's "like for like" methodology does not match Starwood's!)   This has resulted in it being much more "point efficient" (and therefore cost efficient) to trade through II if one can travel in shoulder season.  

Was the II change designed to:

-- Keep more prime inventory in the system for owners to use (Starwood's story) .... or

-- Make it more difficult to circumvent the network trading "advantage" through II

I'm sure it's a combination of the two ... but it's food for thought given that Marriott almost assuredly has a need for your prime weeks to make their new points system viable.


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## BocaBoy (Jun 26, 2010)

*Dave M*

I think it is interesting that Dave M decides what can be posted and also posts his own personal opinions, many of which are also quite biased.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> ... but it's food for thought given that Marriott almost assuredly has a need for your prime weeks to make their new points system viable.



Exactly.  And this is one of the prime reasons I plan to join the new system.  It was hard enough to get prime weeks via II exchange as it was.  I suspect it will soon become much harder.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Exactly.  And this is one of the prime reasons I plan to join the new system.  It was hard enough to get prime weeks via II exchange as it was.  I suspect it will soon become much harder.



Different interpratation to what jerseygirl said:

Keep doing what you are doing with II. Marriott needs those weeks so you will get your 2br july 4 hawaii exchange or summer at HHI or newport. I agree with this interpretation.

I'd also use request first only...


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## pianodinosaur (Jun 26, 2010)

*Law of Unintended Consequences*

Law of Unintended Consequences

It seems that whenever a bureaucracy comes up with a great new idea to implement, the unintended consequences usually come as an unpleasant surprise. I am in the process of closing on a 1 bedroom Gold season unit at Marriott's Mountain Valley Lodge purchased via ebay.  Upon review of the Marriott Vacation Club Points Chart my week is set at 1175 points maximum. This gives me virtually no trading power within Marriott's point system. It would also seem that owners at Marriott's Sunset Pointe and Marriott's Harbour Point have virtually no trading power with Marriott's point system. 

Marriott's Mountain Valley Lodge has very high MFs so the MF/point ratio is very high. Fortunately, we love Colorado in the summer and do not ski.  I think we will be able to get week we want in Colorado without converting to points. Should we wish use our week to go elsewhere, we have no viable option other than II.

We have been members of HGVC for over nine years. The HGVC point system is very easy to understand and to use.  HGVC only trades via RCI.  The main reason I purchased MMVL was to get into II.  However, had I purchased at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club, the MF/point ratio would be low and I would perceive my situation differently and seek to join the Marriott points program.

I think that most of us will all act in what we perceive to be in our own best interest.  It may take several years before the unintended consequences become self evident.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Different interpratation to what jerseygirl said:
> 
> Keep doing what you are doing with II. Marriott needs those weeks so you will get your 2br july 4 hawaii exchange or summer at HHI or newport. I agree with this interpretation.
> 
> I'd also use request first only...



Actually, I was wondering about the part about request first. As long as that option exists, that might be the only thing that prevents Marriott from raiding owner's deposits in II to fulfill points requests, instead of other week owners' requests. I assume if you do a request first instead of a deposit you have to get your request before Marriott gets your week. Interesting thought...and may be one of the aces in the hole, so to speak in ensuring valuable trades through week deposits.


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Standing request first*



m61376 said:


> Actually, I was wondering about the part about request first. As long as that option exists, that might be the only thing that prevents Marriott from raiding owner's deposits in II to fulfill points requests, instead of other week owners' requests. I assume if you do a request first instead of a deposit you have to get your request before Marriott gets your week. Interesting thought...and may be one of the aces in the hole, so to speak in ensuring valuable trades through week deposits.



I assume that the Marriott requests are all treated as request first - and ahead of any a member makes. Unless your week is SO good (as in better than what you are requesting) that they want yours & are willing to give one they have up for it. It would still be a trade down for you or they wouldn't do it.  They are always at the heads of the line, I'd be willing to bet.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I think it is interesting that Dave M decides what can be posted and also posts his own personal opinions, many of which are also quite biased.



I don't believe DaveM has edited or deleted any of my very opinionated posts.  Most, up until yesterday, have been the polar opposite of his opinion. I didn't see DaveM shooting down any of Perry's negative posts in the speculation thread either.


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## ilene13 (Jun 26, 2010)

*points vs owning a week*



dioxide45 said:


> I still think the original resort governing documents cover the fact that no more than 50% of the reservable weeks can be confirmed at the 13 month mark. I don't think this basic fact has changed, has it?


Here is my question if only 50% of the weeks are available at 13 months ( own 3 platinum wks at the Aruba Ocean Club) will I have to compete with Premier Plus point owners?  I usually get wks 50 -52 in Aruba.  If I combine all 4 weeks I own I would have 13350 points, but I do not want to have to use them for only 2 weeks!  I do not think we are going to join if it does not change the current way I book---I rarely exchange my Marriott weeks.  I use Interval for my Royal Resort weeks.  We are going to Surfwatch next week--I can't wait to attend a presentation with all my questions.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Actually, I was wondering about the part about request first. As long as that option exists, that might be the only thing that prevents Marriott from raiding owner's deposits in II to fulfill points requests, instead of other week owners' requests. I assume if you do a request first instead of a deposit you have to get your request before Marriott gets your week. Interesting thought...and may be one of the aces in the hole, so to speak in ensuring valuable trades through week deposits.



That makes a lot of sense ... and perhaps it will also "pay" to continue to pay II for trades.  I don't know what II will be paid by Marriott for facilitating trades under the all-in-one $169/$199 fee ... but you can bet it won't be what a regular member pays.  Perhaps the combination of the two (request first and a "paid" trade) might be the secret to continuing to trade as you always have ... or at least as close to what you had before as possible.

Having said that, when I outlined Starwood's procedures above, I forgot one VERY IMPORTANT component.  It's impossible to do a true "request first" under the new procedures.

-- First of all, you have to call Starwood to initiate a trade request.  If you see something really great in II's inventory before Starwood opens in the morning, you can't just grab it like you could in the old days*. 

-- You can place an ongoing request and cancel it anytime before it is filled.  But, Starwood doesn't hold your original reservation.  Cancels are also done through Starwood as well, at which time you can make a NEW reservation (subject to diminishing inventory, of course).

*Reportedly, you can also make a straight deposit which does enable you to grab something.  Since I'm on strike with all float** weeks I own, I haven't made any trades under the new procedures and therefore I'm unclear on the mechanics.  I just know, from reading the Starwood board, that it's WAY more complicated to do trades.

** As much as I'm sure they probably tried, Starwood has been unable to mess with trading as it relates to fixed weeks.  

We still have full online search capability, but (again) -- some are reporting the inability to actually process a trade without calling Starwood first.

I hope Marriott truly does allow you to continue to trade like you always did.  But ... Starwood used those words with us when they first changed the procedures too.

Shoutout to L2Trade -- Are you around?  Will you please explain the mechanics a little better since you're not on strike?


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## hipslo (Jun 26, 2010)

ilene13 said:


> Here is my question if only 50% of the weeks are available at 13 months ( own 3 platinum wks at the Aruba Ocean Club) will I have to compete with Premier Plus point owners?



I believe the answer is "yes", though exactly how inventory is to be allocated between weeks and points is a question that does not seem to have been answered definitively.

And its not just premiere plus, its also premiere, if the reservation is for at least 7 days.

And actually, ANY points owner who wants to book at 13 months can do so, if they pay a 20% points premium.

But again, it all comes down to how inventory is allocated betwen weeks and points.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

ilene13 said:


> Here is my question if only 50% of the weeks are available at 13 months ( own 3 platinum wks at the Aruba Ocean Club) will I have to compete with Premier Plus point owners?  I usually get wks 50 -52 in Aruba.  If I combine all 4 weeks I own I would have 13350 points, but I do not want to have to use them for only 2 weeks!  I do not think we are going to join if it does not change the current way I book---I rarely exchange my Marriott weeks.  I use Interval for my Royal Resort weeks.  We are going to Surfwatch next week--I can't wait to attend a presentation with all my questions.



I have to agree with the PP on this one. You should be able to do this and have access 50% of the weeks at the 13 month mark.

With regards to request first trades, this could work in one's favor, here's how. Place a request first with II using your reserved good NCV week for X resort. Assume you don't have the trade power to get X week, so your request just sits.

Points owner calls Marriott and wants to book with points that good NCV week you have reserved. Marriott checks their inventory, nothing available for NCV, they check II and again no luck. They can still ask II if anyone out there has a request first offering up that good NCV. Marriott can broker a deal with II to perhaps give them extra inventory from their pool in order to compensate them for filling your request that doesn't meet trade power. II confirms your request to X week, you give up your good NCV week to them, they pass it off to Marriott. Marriott gives II additional compensation to make up the difference of your good NCV and what II actually gave you.

Had you just given up your week on a deposit first to II, Marriott would have scooped it up and you would still be without your exchange.

This is a complicated multi layers system that Marriott has come up with. It has to be an albatross to try and manage.


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## cruisin (Jun 26, 2010)

The points resell market will be huge, They can bring in new owners with low points memberships, but they will hate not being able to use it.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> I hope Marriott truly does allow you to continue to trade like you always did.  But ... Starwood used those words with us when they first changed the procedures too.



The Gift of Time week was the last deposit I ever make. Anything in the future will be Request First. 

My guess is that for now they will allow true request firsts. IMO that is the way to go.

In the future, as more enrolled weeks leave the system due to resales, they may have to resort to Starwood's methodology to regain control of that inventory. Probably not a concern for them in the next 4-5 years.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> In the future, as more enrolled weeks leave the system due to resales, they may have to resort to Starwood's methodology to regain control of that inventory. Probably not a concern for them in the next 4-5 years.



Since it appears that enrolled members can have their exchanges filled from II inventory as well as points inventory, it will not matter that much whether a lot of enrolled members sell their timeshares or not.  If the new resale owners deposit their weeks, they become available to the existing enrolled members just like they did before the resale.  Keep in mind that the weeks of anyone, enrolled or not enrolled, who does not exchange but goes to their home resort will not be available to enrolled members anyway.  So, it is only the people who exchange either via II or points who will be providing inventory for enrolled members.


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## DanCali (Jun 27, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Since it appears that enrolled members can have their exchanges filled from II inventory as well as points inventory, it will not matter that much whether a lot of enrolled members sell their timeshares or not.  If the new resale owners deposit their weeks, they become available to the existing enrolled members just like they did before the resale.  Keep in mind that the weeks of anyone, enrolled or not enrolled, who does not exchange but goes to their home resort will not be available to enrolled members anyway.  So, it is only the people who exchange either via II or points who will be providing inventory for enrolled members.



If 50% of new resale owners buy to use or rent, that will impact the points program over time as more weeks are resold. In regards to II, I believe Request First will be come the default for weeks outside the system to avoid pillaging of inventory by Marriott. At some point inventory will become a concern for Marriott and they can (i) invite those weeks in the system or (2) change the rules to to their advantage yet again.


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## l2trade (Jun 27, 2010)

I am still in touch with my main POC who gave me the leaks I posted 11 days ago.  I am told that Marriott is promising to take aggressive action to expand inventory reach of the points system.  As we know, the TRUST only covers the initial resorts where Marriott had plenty of developer owned inventory (let's call that phase 1).  Let's call phase 2 the enrollment of existing owners and the agreements with II to balance inventory in the back end (I wish I had better details on that!).  Phase 3 will be diversity of TRUST holdings by accumulating deeds at the other properties through ROFR, resale purchases, DIL, etc and only as necessary (i.e. - not enough owner enrollment).

IMHO, Phase 3 requires significant capital commitment above and beyond the existing ownerships which Marriott put into the TRUST on day 1.  These new costs must be balanced with Marriott's ability to, at a minimum, recoup them by renting the additional developer owned inventory that Marriott invests in and/or increasing trust point sales.  The implicit promise to senior sales staff (and, in turn, to point customers) is that Marriott absolutely intends to do this and everything else possible to support the points program they've released with a reasonable and much more improved level of availability & flexibility.  If owners from the resorts outside the trust refuse to enroll and stop trading with II and refuse to sell...  wait a second, that is crazy talk and owners will never be able to organize to undermine Marriott in that way.  I learned that lesson, painfully, from the attempted and failed Starwood owner revolt.  I truly have no doubt Marriott will get the control they need one way or another.  This whole program, whether you like it or not (I vote not), is well thought out and there is no turning back.  Like I said on June 15th: 

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system. I do not. I expect this system will make things more 'fair'. By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't. In a word, I say !$#@+!. ​
Maybe some adjustments will happen along the way, but Marriott is fully committed to this.  There is no turning back and no comings flops.  Whatever fails as points will be owned as hotel rooms that Marriott RENTS to non-owners.  The line between Marriott timeshares and Marriott hotels is forever blurred.


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## l2trade (Jun 27, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> That makes a lot of sense ... and perhaps it will also "pay" to continue to pay II for trades.  I don't know what II will be paid by Marriott for facilitating trades under the all-in-one $169/$199 fee ... but you can bet it won't be what a regular member pays.  Perhaps the combination of the two (request first and a "paid" trade) might be the secret to continuing to trade as you always have ... or at least as close to what you had before as possible.
> 
> Having said that, when I outlined Starwood's procedures above, I forgot one VERY IMPORTANT component.  It's impossible to do a true "request first" under the new procedures.
> 
> ...



IMHO, Marriott has no NEED to do what Starwood did because Marriott found a better way to ACHIEVE essentially the same thing without shoving the details in the face of owners.  Both companies balance the weeks inventory with II on the back end.  With Starwood, you relinquish the reservation upfront.  With Marriott, you relinquish it on the exchange confirmation to II (and, potentially indirectly behind the scenes back to Marriott).  Truth be told, availability of the highest demand weeks are more valuable between 2 to six months before arrival than they are at 12 months or last minute.  The Starwood rules encourage those highest demand reservations to remain open at a 12 month window in which other owners (not Starwood) can book their home resort while supposedly (snicker, snicker) reducing the risk of last minute cancellations.  Marriott, on the other hand, encourages owners to hold onto those high demand weeks while they are 'tied up' in the request first process.  I predict this will result in a higher yield of high demand weeks returning to the control of the Marriott points system (via backroom deals with II) during the mid year before departure range.  By keeping true 'request first', Marriott is actually helping owners AND more keenly helping themselves!

I will try to keep most of my often lengthy comments about Starwood mechanics to the Starwood Board.  I think it suffice to say that Starwood's new system is very simple on the surface in many regards and yet annoying in reality at the detailed multi-week owner level (phone calls due to website errors and confusion keeping organized which from what usage years and multiple units).  Starwood Tuggers (myself included) pitched a HUGE STINK at Starwood for these changes, which, IMHO, are minor compared to what Marriott just did.  The end result for Starwood owners are really low to non-existent resale values for voluntary resorts, such as SDO & SBP.  In reality, there are still plenty of sightings for users splitting these cheap two bedroom lockoffs and getting awesome exchanges.  I fall into that category all the time.  Trade values are lower, but by no means are they horrible like we all feared.  I feared the worst and SO FAR, THANKFULLY I WAS WRONG!     For example, with persistence, you can still get an off season two bedroom Hawaii instant exchange on II for a small 1 bedroom gold plus SDO.  I will take great trades like that ANY day of the week versus the mediocrity of fairness that point systems purport to offer.  If I must someday surrender and join the industry with a point system, I hope to use the best point system of them all...  CASH!


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## pacheco18 (Jun 27, 2010)

Although theoretically Request First would prevent Marriott from snatching a resort week for points owners (I love that idea - gives us some power in this new scheme), many of us, myself included, deposit our weeks or portions (lockoffs eg) without having any plans as to where or when we want to go to a timeshare resort.  By depositing a unit or unused portion I get two years to figure out what to do with it.

Request First will only work in the limited situation where you are sure you are going to travel at a certain time and are willing to go to your home resort on the date you reserved if your trade doesn't come through.

I rarely deposit or trade - but if I do, that's my scenario.


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## DanCali (Jun 27, 2010)

You can always rent as a last resort.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 27, 2010)

pacheco18 said:


> Although theoretically Request First would prevent Marriott from snatching a resort week for points owners (I love that idea - gives us some power in this new scheme), many of us, myself included, deposit our weeks or portions (lockoffs eg) without having any plans as to where or when we want to go to a timeshare resort.  By depositing a unit or unused portion I get two years to figure out what to do with it.
> 
> Request First will only work in the limited situation where you are sure you are going to travel at a certain time and are willing to go to your home resort on the date you reserved if your trade doesn't come through.
> 
> I rarely deposit or trade - but if I do, that's my scenario.



Depending upon how they pull inventory out of II, I don't think request first will necessarily help too much.  If you get your exchange, your unit then gets deposited.  Since all of this is computerized, the deposit will probably trigger the same hit as it would have had you just done a deposit first.  It will just get delayed until you get your hit.  If you never get a hit, then, yes, it will keep your unit out of the hands of the points people.  But, I don't think that will be what you will be hoping for.

Anyway you cut it, I think the high demand weeks will eventually go to the enrolled points people doing exchanges.  I think Marriott has got this pretty much figured out.

In fact, they are geniuses.  They are going to get a significant cash inflow from the new program, both from enrollment fees and from those who will try to recover their trading power by buying the 1000 points (because of the "points skimming").  In addition, all of that unsold inventory they have (which hasn't been selling due to the economy) will now go into the Trust to be used to satisfy points exchange requests.  Plus, if they desire, they can use ROFR to add additional high value units to the inventory.  People who successfully sell their units don't hurt the program at all because the points exchanges will still be able to grab them out of II deposits should the new owners desire to exchange.


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## pharmgirl (Jun 27, 2010)

with the economic downturn think it is unlikely that there will be many buyers of an 'idea or dream [exchanging]' rather than a deed at a beautiful resort with a idea or dream added to the deed

Has anyone seen any evidence of marriott plans to restart building at the new resorts or stopped buildings at existing resorts?


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## boneyfamily (Jun 27, 2010)

*International resorts - not eligible for points.*

I have four weeks of Marriott timeshare weeks.  I have 2 weeks at Marbella-Silver, I have a platinum at Chateau and Desert Springs.  It appears that the only ones available for points are the Chateau (3275) and Desert Springs (2900): I was wondering if anyone has the answers to the following questions:


Has anyone heard of the time frame or if the international resorts will have points allocations?  Since we can't convert them now will we have to pay the entrance fee again?
What if I have a sale of a timeshare pending.  If I wait until the end of the year to convert or pay the points membership will these convert or what will happen in the future regarding these weeks.  Will they just be for trade or will they convert to points?  `just curious.
 I am just not sure how to manage some that can be points and some that would be trades.


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