# Former Wyndham Sales Rep Answering Questions



## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 27, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.



Welcome to the TUG forums.  Which Wyndham resort(s) did you work in and what was your role exactly?  I think you will find, unlike on the Facebook groups, most TUGGERs are quite knowledgeable - generally more knowledgeable than many of the sales people that actually work for Wyndham based upon our experiences interacting with the sales people.  The overall question that begs to be answered:  when is Wyndham going to stop practicing cognitive dissonance with respect to their deceptive sales and marketing practices that repeatedly damages their owner/customer experiences and overall reputation?  There has to be a better way...


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

I was an In-House Sales Rep for almost 3 years. The answer to that question is simply never. They only do what they have to disciplinary wise when the Real Estate Commission gets involved. As long as they're making money they do not care about deception until there is proof and they have to act on it.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 27, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I was an In-House Sales Rep for almost 3 years. The answer to that question is simply never. They only do what they have to disciplinary wise when the Real Estate Commission gets involved. As long as they're making money they do not care about deception until there is proof and they have to act on it.



What is an in-house sales rep exactly? Is that telesales? Or local resort sales? How often does the Real Estate Commission intercede with disciplinary issues and how can owners facilitate this process to start to put more pressure on Wyndham to change their deceptive practices?

How are the sales reps compensated at Wyndham? 100% commission? Base plus commission? Does it vary dependent upon the type of sales position? 

Does Wyndham actually train their sales reps to use the “daze and confuse” back of the napkin deceptive sales methods routinely employed? How do they get around elder abuse laws given a good subset of their ownership base is over the age after which these laws apply?

If you would like to produce a list of frequently asked questions yourself and provide clear guidance to help eliminate confusion - I can create a sticky thread that owners can reference with these questions and actual honest answers as opposed to the deceptive answers that are often employed instead. This would help serve as a point of reference for new owners that visit TUG looking for guidance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> What is an in-house sales rep exactly? Is that telesales? Or local resort sales? How often does the Real Estate Commission intercede with disciplinary issues and how can owners facilitate this process to start to put more pressure on Wyndham to change their deceptive practices?
> 
> How are the sales reps compensated at Wyndham? 100% commission? Base plus commission? Does it vary dependent upon the type of sales position?
> 
> ...



In-House Sales only work with existing owners at the resorts. So they are the ones you meet for "Owner Updates" REC only intercedes when multiple complaints are pushed through Wyndham when people try to cancel after Rescission Period. Wyndham is so large that you really can't pressure them or REC to do anything. Reps are 100% commission but this year due to shortages of workers they offered base with smaller commission to new hires but they could choose which pay structure. "Wyndham Trainers" all train to compliance with REC. You actually get trained and taught when you hit sales floor and that is where you learn the Theatricality of it all usually from a top rep. If you don't make friends quick then you don't learn and you don't make money. Any sale to an owner that is born before a certain year (I don't recall the age) Wyndham does an interrogation call a few days after to see if they knew what they purchased but that's about it. Usually reps will coach that elderly owner before the call too so they say the right things and avoid sale being canceled.. If you want to make that list I'll answer when I have free time no problem.


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## travelhacker (Oct 27, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.


Big thanks -- this is interesting.

What percentage of the total sales price does a rep typically make in the sale? What about the sales manager?


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> Big thanks -- this is interesting.
> 
> What percentage of the total sales price does a rep typically make in the sale? What about the sales manager?


Tiered structure starts at 6% as long as owner puts 30% down payment (Usually Wyndham Rewards Visa or VCC), if not it starts at 3%. Top Level is 15%. Sales Managers get percentage bonus off their whole team. I don't know their current percentages though. Average Top Reps usually make $200k+ a year and I know reps that have made over $700k a year consecutively as well.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 27, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> Big thanks -- this is interesting.
> 
> What percentage of the total sales price does a rep typically make in the sale? What about the sales manager?


I am also curious as to the split between the sales rep and the closer. I recall a YouTube video that indicated the closer would get a higher percentage than the initial rep.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 27, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Tiered structure starts at 6% as long as owner puts 30% down payment (Usually Wyndham Rewards Visa or VCC), if not it starts at 3%. Top Level is 15%. Sales Managers get percentage bonus off their whole team. I don't know their current percentages though. Average Top Reps usually make $200k+ a year and I know reps that have made over $700k a year consecutively as well.



That's pretty good coin overall.  What is the percentage of "top reps" compared to the overall total sales reps?  10%?  I'd imagine those making 700k per year reside in the larger sales centers like Bonnet Creek, National Harbor, Ocean Boulevard, etc.?


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am also curious as to the split between the sales rep and the closer. I recall a YouTube video that indicated the closer would get a higher percentage than the initial rep.


Used to be 50% split but they changed it to 70/30 split. The 70% goes to the rep that owner tour is assigned to and whoever helps gets 30%. That's why a lot of veteran sales reps don't close deals anymore because if it's a newer rep that closer will do majority of the work but only get 30% since it was someone else tour.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That's pretty good coin overall.  What is the percentage of "top reps" compared to the overall total sales reps?  10%?  I'd imagine those making 700k per year reside in the larger sales centers like Bonnet Creek, National Harbor, Ocean Boulevard, etc.?


There at least 5 heavy hitters at each center on average. Majority of top reps will be the ones making the $200k+ a year.


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## travelhacker (Oct 27, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.


How long did it take you to size someone up on their knowledge?

I went to a presentation once and the guy told me a few minutes in "It's obvious I'm not going to sell you anything, but let's just chat for a bit and I'll let you guys out early". Sadly, I think my account got blacklisted because I have never been invited back.


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## kaljor (Oct 27, 2022)

I've always been curious about the success rate of sales at these meetings. Do you have a ballpark figure for instance out of every ten owners attending a given meeting how many leave that day agreeing to buy more points?  My guess would be 2 out of ten.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 27, 2022)

kaljor said:


> My guess would be 2 out of ten.


So one out of every five?


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## LannyPC (Oct 27, 2022)

What are the most common objections the potential buyers (marks) raise and what are the typical counter arguments that sales people are trained to use?

My guess is these are the top five:
1) I/we can't afford it.
2) I/we don't have $20,000 (or whatever the cost is) right now.
3) I/we can buy the same thing resale for a fraction of the cost (see E-Bay, Craigslist, TUG, Red Week, etc.).
4) I/we can rent from existing owners for less than the annual MFs.
5) I/we don't travel very often.

I'm also guessing that objections numbers 1,2, and 5 are from those who are very unfamiliar with timesharing and numbers 3 and 4 more or less come from those who are very familiar with timesharing.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 28, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> How long did it take you to size someone up on their knowledge?
> 
> I went to a presentation once and the guy told me a few minutes in "It's obvious I'm not going to sell you anything, but let's just chat for a bit and I'll let you guys out early". Sadly, I think my account got blacklisted because I have never been invited back.


Which leads to another question. Do accounts get blacklisted if a salesperson determines there's no way this particular owner is going to buy? Conversely, are there owners that are great marks and their accounts are duly noted (or is that obvious anyways based on their purchase history)?


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## pedro47 (Oct 28, 2022)

Why are sales presentation 90 minutes or more?


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> How long did it take you to size someone up on their knowledge?
> 
> I went to a presentation once and the guy told me a few minutes in "It's obvious I'm not going to sell you anything, but let's just chat for a bit and I'll let you guys out early". Sadly, I think my account got blacklisted because I have never been invited back.


I was the same way. I knew in first 5 minutes.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

kaljor said:


> I've always been curious about the success rate of sales at these meetings. Do you have a ballpark figure for instance out of every ten owners attending a given meeting how many leave that day agreeing to buy more points?  My guess would be 2 out of ten.


20% Close Rate was a normal day.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I was the same way. I knew in first 5 minutes.



I must say it is a very sad state of affairs if the sales qualification process is essentially tied to how gullible the customer actually is as opposed to whether the timeshare product is actually a good match based upon the actual customer’s vacation wants and needs. This basic fact proves why timeshare companies enjoy such miserable reputations with their customer base in general.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

LannyPC said:


> What are the most common objections the potential buyers (marks) raise and what are the typical counter arguments that sales people are trained to use?
> 
> My guess is these are the top five:
> 1) I/we can't afford it.
> ...


Yes those are all the typical objections and here is typical response that starts the selling.

1) I/we can't afford it.  Because you don't have the programs to offset cost that were offered last time you bought. Why didn't you take advantage when you could have?

2) I/we don't have $20,000 (or whatever the cost is) right now.  You're already paying that. It's the same money.

3) I/we can buy the same thing resale for a fraction of the cost (see E-Bay, Craigslist, TUG, Red Week, etc.).  You don't get VIP benefits with resale. 

4) I/we can rent from existing owners for less than the annual MFs.  Or you could rent yours and it pays for itself. Self-sustaining Ownership. 

5) I/we don't travel very often.  Then how are you here now if that's true? 

The whole purpose/ process to sell to an owner is "Finding the pain". Make them feel they were sold wrong package before and show them how you can fix it without costing them anymore money.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Which leads to another question. Do accounts get blacklisted if a salesperson determines there's no way this particular owner is going to buy? Conversely, are there owners that are great marks and their accounts are duly noted (or is that obvious anyways based on their purchase history)?


No. Only time you're not invited to an "Owner Update" is if you call corporate and request to be on DNG (Do Not Gift) list. I've sold to people who just bought a month prior and to people who haven't bought in 20 years.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Why are sales presentation 90 minutes or more?


To keep you there long enough for salesman to try and sell you.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 28, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I must say it is a very sad state of affairs if the sales qualification process is essentially tied to how gullible the customer actually is as opposed to whether the timeshare product is actually a good match based upon the actual customer’s vacation wants and needs. This basic fact proves why timeshare companies enjoy such miserable reputations with their customer base in general.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never a wiser statement posted on TUG!  I love this.  

I am never invited anymore and glad about it @travelhacker You should count your lucky stars.  I don't like being harassed while on vacation.  I am glad to not get the calls from the "concierge" constantly during my stays.


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## travelhacker (Oct 28, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Never a wiser statement posted on TUG!  I love this.
> 
> I am never invited anymore and glad about it @travelhacker You should count your lucky stars.  I don't like being harassed while on vacation.  I am glad to not get the calls from the "concierge" constantly during my stays.


Yes! I travel mostly with Hyatt and frankly their offers aren’t as good. It’s really nice not to be bugged. 

I was just invited to attend a Marriott presentation for a pretty decent award, so I may do that in the future. I am hoping to get some DP points after the Abound merge happens.


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## Cyrus24 (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> No. Only time you're not invited to an "Owner Update" is if you call corporate and request to be on DNG (Do Not Gift) list. I've sold to people who just bought a month prior and to people who haven't bought in 20 years.


I did not ask to be on the DNG list, but, have not been invited to an update in over 1.5 years.  Yes, I did go to 4 updates in 4 months, the last of which, almost sold me on an upgrade to Founders/PR.  I like the occasional updates, how do I get off the DNG list?


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> I did not ask to be on the DNG list, but, have not been invited to an update in over 1.5 years.  Yes, I did go to 4 updates in 4 months, the last of which, almost sold me on an upgrade to Founders/PR.  I like the occasional updates, how do I get off the DNG list?


Call Wyndham 800 number.


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## Fido Chuckwagon (Oct 28, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I must say it is a very sad state of affairs if the sales qualification process is essentially tied to how gullible the customer actually is as opposed to whether the timeshare product is actually a good match based upon the actual customer’s vacation wants and needs. This basic fact proves why timeshare companies enjoy such miserable reputations with their customer base in general.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would say the only exception to this is probably Disney, which while very expensive, does not utilize high pressure sales tactics.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 28, 2022)

How many tours/presentations does a single salesperson do on average per day?


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## Varanauski (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.


I would like to know why Wyndham club is sending out letter to us owners that help others out with our points and saving a little on monthly cost.  Whenever my wife and I attended a sales presentation we were always told that out points were ours to use as we liked and if we wanted to rent some of our points out we could and heard this a number of times over and over at sales presentation.  Now Wyndham is saying I am a commercial person and that is not allowed to use my points as I desire and I am limited on the number of guest reservations I can use. 
Now getting nasty letters telling I can get additional penalties and privileges being suspended or terminated.  How can someone like me paying Wyndham over $ 100,000.00 over the years not be allowed to use my points as I desires.  Are last two sales presentation the salesperson total us that we could sign up with Wyndham who would rent extra points we had.  How can Wyndham do that and I am not allowed to do my own rentals do I need to get an attorney?


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.



When did you stop working for Wyndham? Prior to the pandemic? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Oct 28, 2022)

What is the largest (dollar amount) that you sold to a single person in a single sale and what was the smallest (that wasn't $0)


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> How many tours/presentations does a single salesperson do on average per day?


2-3


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

Varanauski said:


> I would like to know why Wyndham club is sending out letter to us owners that help others out with our points and saving a little on monthly cost.  Whenever my wife and I attended a sales presentation we were always told that out points were ours to use as we liked and if we wanted to rent some of our points out we could and heard this a number of times over and over at sales presentation.  Now Wyndham is saying I am a commercial person and that is not allowed to use my points as I desire and I am limited on the number of guest reservations I can use.
> Now getting nasty letters telling I can get additional penalties and privileges being suspended or terminated.  How can someone like me paying Wyndham over $ 100,000.00 over the years not be allowed to use my points as I desires.  Are last two sales presentation the salesperson total us that we could sign up with Wyndham who would rent extra points we had.  How can Wyndham do that and I am not allowed to do my own rentals do I need to get an attorney?


I can answer that but that is too much  to message. You can DM me if you want to to contact me and I'll answer.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> When did you stop working for Wyndham? Prior to the pandemic?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I left almost 2 years ago. I was there before, during, and after COVID


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> What is the largest (dollar amount) that you sold to a single person in a single sale and what was the smallest (that wasn't $0)


Largest was $110,000. Smallest was $15,000. Smallest package you can sell though is about $7,000 or however much 28,000 points cost now. Was $253 per 1,000 when I was there.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I left almost 2 years ago. I was there before, during, and after COVID



Two years ago would put you in fall 2020 timeframe. This exit timeframe pre-dates the changes to the VIP hybrid ownerships implemented in August 2021 and the formalization of the blackout dates for rentals, and it certainly pre-dates the beginning of the cease and desist letters that commercial renters started receiving in fall 2021 - roughly one year ago now. I make this last point because you responded to the poster regarding the cease and desist commercial rental warnings as if you worked at Wyndham when this process started - but you were already gone from Wyndham by then if you left almost two years ago. Does this mean you are going to provide guidance based upon something other than your actual work experience as a result? That’s just fine of course - we all get info from third party sources in life - I just want to be clear about the sources is all.  

If you are wondering from where I source my information, I work directly with several Wyndham senior executives, and key members of the Wyndham digital transformation team that focus on the owner website experience, on a regular basis to help improve the customer experience and provide direct feedback from TUG based upon owner experiences reported here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## billymach4 (Oct 28, 2022)

You mayy have already answered this. For easy round numbers... On  $100,000 sale can you please break down the commissions.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Two years ago would put you in fall 2020 timeframe. This exit timeframe pre-dates the changes to the VIP hybrid ownerships implemented in August 2021 and the formalization of the blackout dates for rentals, and it certainly pre-dates the beginning of the cease and desist letters that commercial renters started receiving in fall 2021 - roughly one year ago now. I make this last point because you responded to the poster regarding the cease and desist commercial rental warnings as if you worked at Wyndham when this process started - but you were already gone from Wyndham by then if you left almost two years ago. Does this mean you are going to provide guidance based upon something other than your actual work experience as a result? That’s just fine of course - we all get info from third party sources in life - I just want to be clear about the sources is all.
> 
> If you are wondering from where I source my information, I work directly with several Wyndham senior executives, and key members of the Wyndham digital transformation team that focus on the owner website experience, on a regular basis to help improve the customer experience and provide direct feedback from TUG based upon owner experiences reported here.
> 
> ...


Well my current occupation involves working with Wyndham Owners everyday so I have multiple copies of these letters from all of my owners and I have plenty of knowledge on them.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 28, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> You mayy have already answered this. For easy round numbers... On  $100,000 sale can you please break down the commissions.


Breakdown is in thread but if someone is at top level that's $15,000.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 28, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Well my current occupation involves working with Wyndham Owners everyday so I have multiple copies of these letters from all of my owners and I have plenty of knowledge on them.



Got it and thanks for the additional color. If you are comfortable sharing the same details via DM to me regarding the answers to the poster above - please feel free to do so - I will then figure out a way to wordsmith and/or generalize after we come to mutual agreement on the verbiage as it relates to the FAQ idea - if applicable. 


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## kaljor (Oct 29, 2022)

Here's something I'm curious about.  After the presentation when I sit down with the sales person, does he/she have my account details available?  The reason I ask is because after we spend a few minutes discussing various Wyndham programs, I stop them to say that none of those programs apply to me because all my points are resale.  They always seem surprised by this.  Is that part of the game or have they really not looked over my account status before we start?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2022)

kaljor said:


> Here's something I'm curious about.  After the presentation when I sit down with the sales person, does he/she have my account details available?  The reason I ask is because after we spend a few minutes discussing various Wyndham programs, I stop them to say that none of those programs apply to me because all my points are resale.  They always seem surprised by this.  Is that part of the game or have they really not looked over my account status before we start?


We also get the bit where they sit and talk for a few minutes then say they have to go pull up our account information. That is just a ploy to talk with the sales manager to figure out how to spin it in order for the best chance for a sale. Works much the same as in a used car sales showroom.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 29, 2022)

kaljor said:


> Here's something I'm curious about.  After the presentation when I sit down with the sales person, does he/she have my account details available?  The reason I ask is because after we spend a few minutes discussing various Wyndham programs, I stop them to say that none of those programs apply to me because all my points are resale.  They always seem surprised by this.  Is that part of the game or have they really not looked over my account status before we start?


Part of the show. They look at your account thoroughly while you're in with the Presenter or if they sit with you their Manager is studying your account for an angle.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2022)

Are there hidden microphones in the sales office (or hidden under the table) where they or the sales manager is listening in on your conversation with the rep or listening in when there is no one else in the room with the prospective buyer?


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 29, 2022)

How much are the people at the parking pass desk paid to get you to sign up for a presentation? I've always been upfront with the sales person that I tell the parking pass people that they have 0% chance of selling me anything and they don't care and still will offer me $150 to sit there and say no. Then the sales person gets annoyed with me for being there when it's obvious I'm not going to buy. Are the parking pass people just paid for getting you to show regardless if you buy?


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## ronparise (Oct 29, 2022)

Do (did) the sales staff know who the megarenters are.  and were you instructed to deal with us in any particular way?


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## davidvel (Oct 29, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> How much are the people at the parking pass desk paid to get you to sign up for a presentation? I've always been upfront with the sales person that I tell the parking pass people that they have 0% chance of selling me anything and they don't care and still will offer me $150 to sit there and say no. Then the sales person gets annoyed with me for being there when it's obvious I'm not going to buy. *Are the parking pass people just paid for getting you to show regardless if you buy?*


I don't know the answer to your last question, but I don't see how it matters. You can't buy if you don't sign up, so either way they want you signed up.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2022)

I know you aren't the sales person in this video, he only made it two days. But I thought it might be interesting in the context of this thread.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Are there hidden microphones in the sales office (or hidden under the table) where they or the sales manager is listening in on your conversation with the rep or listening in when there is no one else in the room with the prospective buyer?


No. But Managers and  Closers are always walking around listening for an opening to jump in.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 30, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> How much are the people at the parking pass desk paid to get you to sign up for a presentation? I've always been upfront with the sales person that I tell the parking pass people that they have 0% chance of selling me anything and they don't care and still will offer me $150 to sit there and say no. Then the sales person gets annoyed with me for being there when it's obvious I'm not going to buy. Are the parking pass people just paid for getting you to show regardless if you buy?


Yes. They push because they get paid if you show. As far as how much, they have a weird pay structure but average $50-$100 per show on top of their hourly.


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## RowdyRiner (Oct 30, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Do (did) the sales staff know who the megarenters are.  and were you instructed to deal with us in any particular way?


No one cares if you're a Mega Renter except Wyndham Corporate so no, we treated you the same.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 30, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Yes. They push because they get paid if you show. As far as how much, they have a weird pay structure but average $50-$100 per show on top of their hourly.



Yes, this is my understanding as well, and the pay structure varies dependent upon the resort location as well. But overall there is a base incentive dollar amount per tour booked - plus an additional variable incentive dependent upon how much the gift costs per tour (the higher the gift costs the lower this variable incentive amount is). There’s apparently also a bonus incentive for the ratio of tours booked that factors in.


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## mboeding621 (Nov 1, 2022)

Varanauski said:


> I would like to know why Wyndham club is sending out letter to us owners that help others out with our points and saving a little on monthly cost.  Whenever my wife and I attended a sales presentation we were always told that out points were ours to use as we liked and if we wanted to rent some of our points out we could and heard this a number of times over and over at sales presentation.  Now Wyndham is saying I am a commercial person and that is not allowed to use my points as I desire and I am limited on the number of guest reservations I can use.
> Now getting nasty letters telling I can get additional penalties and privileges being suspended or terminated.  How can someone like me paying Wyndham over $ 100,000.00 over the years not be allowed to use my points as I desires.  Are last two sales presentation the salesperson total us that we could sign up with Wyndham who would rent extra points we had.  How can Wyndham do that and I am not allowed to do my own rentals do I need to get an attorney?



I also received this letter and am appalled.  Before I call Wyndham, I wonder if anyone has had their points removed for renters?  We own over a million points and have been told MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE (actually EVERY) sales rep that we can do this.  Will be interested to hear replies to this post.  Thanks!


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## mboeding621 (Nov 1, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I can answer that but that is too much  to message. You can DM me if you want to to contact me and I'll answer.



RowdyRiner - I'm not sure how to DM you.  Would love to talk about the infamous commercial letter we received from Wyndham.


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## chapjim (Nov 1, 2022)

mboeding621 said:


> I also received this letter and am appalled.  Before I call Wyndham, I wonder if anyone has had their points removed for renters?  We own over a million points and have been told MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE (actually EVERY) sales rep that we can do this.  Will be interested to hear replies to this post.  Thanks!



Oral representations aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Get over it and start figuring out your next steps.  And taking Wyndham to court isn't one of them.  You have lots of company here.


----------



## Eric B (Nov 1, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Oral representations aren't worth the paper they're written on.



Oddly enough I had heard the exact opposite - they're only worth the paper they're printed on.


----------



## chapjim (Nov 1, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Oddly enough I had heard the exact opposite - they're only worth the paper they're printed on.



Yep, you end up the same place either way.  They are worthless and he needs to move on.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Nov 1, 2022)

mboeding621 said:


> RowdyRiner - I'm not sure how to DM you. Would love to talk about the infamous commercial letter we received from Wyndham.



Click on his name here on TUG and choose the “start conversation” option to DM his TUG account.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jules54 (Nov 1, 2022)

mboeding621 said:


> I also received this letter and am appalled.  Before I call Wyndham, I wonder if anyone has had their points removed for renters?  We own over a million points and have been told MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE (actually EVERY) sales rep that we can do this.  Will be interested to hear replies to this post.  Thanks!


I have not had rented reservations cancelled, but another Wyndham owner I know very well got the letter about no more renting 90 day suspension on guest confirmations. She had 5 rented(guest confirmations)reservations that month. 4 of those Wyndham  cancelled I mean like 2 days before check in. The only reason all 5 weren’t cancelled was Wyndham got the letter out the day that reservation checked in.


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## RowdyRiner (Nov 2, 2022)

mboeding621 said:


> I also received this letter and am appalled.  Before I call Wyndham, I wonder if anyone has had their points removed for renters?  We own over a million points and have been told MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE (actually EVERY) sales rep that we can do this.  Will be interested to hear replies to this post.  Thanks!


You can rent every single point every year to whoever you want. If you're not doing it as a business and claiming taxes on it, then it's not commercial. Wyndham is just trying to push Extra Holidays to get their cut as usual. Worst-case right now Wyndham is locking out Guest Confirmations but with all the complaints they will back down eventually as usual.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 2, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Oral representations aren't worth the paper they're written on.




Class Action Lawsuit!  (But do not make _me_ pay for it.)


----------



## chapjim (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> You can rent every single point every year to whoever you want. If you're not doing it as a business and claiming taxes on it, then it's not commercial. Wyndham is just trying to push Extra Holidays to get their cut as usual. Worst-case right now Wyndham is locking out Guest Confirmations but with all the complaints they will back down eventually as usual.



I'm a bit puzzled by this definition of "commercial."  

Renting generates taxable income that *must be reported*.  Since you have to report the income, you might as well claim the expenses -- maintenance fees allocable to the points and selling expenses (cost of listings, PayPal commissions, etc.).


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 2, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this definition of "commercial."
> 
> Renting generates taxable income that *must be reported*.  Since you have to report the income, you might as well claim the expenses -- maintenance fees allocable to the points and selling expenses (cost of listings, PayPal commissions, etc.).


If you give a friend points for vacation as a gift, and they gift you cash then you don't have to claim it. You didn't sell him points for income or business so it's not commercial.


----------



## LannyPC (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Yes. They push because they get paid if you show. As far as how much, they have a weird pay structure but average $50-$100 per show on top of their hourly.



Aaah.  So that explains it.


----------



## Rolltydr (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> If you give a friend points for vacation as a gift, and they gift you cash then you don't have to claim it. You didn't usell him points for income or business so it's not commercial.


Wow! Genius! I wonder why nobody else ever thought of this? I mean companies could just gift people cash and people could just do things that happen to benefit the companies. No tax implications for anybody! Bull


----------



## LannyPC (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales.



What do you do if you sell to Joe Blow (JB) and then he sends in a rescission letter?  Do you call back trying to change his mind and salvage the sale (and thus, your commission)?  Or do you just let it go figuring it's not worth your time and effort?  

If you do call back, what do you say to try to make JB change his mind?


----------



## Bunk (Nov 2, 2022)

What would you do If the customer wants to tape the presentation or asks for something in writing confirming some of the representations that were made at the presentation?


----------



## chapjim (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> If you *give *a friend points for vacation as a *gift*, and they *gift *you cash then you don't have to claim it. You didn't *sell *him points for income or business so it's not commercial.



"You make a gift when you give property, including money, or the use or income from property, without expecting to receive something of equal value in return."  [IRS Tax Tip 2001-31]

I hate to say it but you haven't lost the "creativity" that timeshare salespersons are known to have.


----------



## Rolltydr (Nov 2, 2022)

chapjim said:


> "You make a gift when you give property, including money, or the use or income from property, without expecting to receive something of equal value in return."  [IRS Tax Tip 2001-31]
> 
> I hate to say it but you haven't lost the "creativity" that timeshare salespersons are known to have.


Darn IRS! I just knew he had them on that one! LOL!


----------



## Rolltydr (Nov 2, 2022)

chapjim said:


> "You make a gift when you give property, including money, or the use or income from property, without expecting to receive something of equal value in return." [IRS Tax Tip 2001-31]
> 
> I hate to say it but you haven't lost the "creativity" that timeshare salespersons are known to have.



I guess it just goes to show you shouldn’t take tax advice from a Wyndham (even if former) salesperson.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 2, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I guess it just goes to show you shouldn’t take tax advice from a Wyndham (even if former) salesperson.


Well you have to play the same games Wyndham does to benefit yourself. It has been 2 years and I haven't had any issues not taxing myself or owners I still work with.


----------



## bnoble (Nov 2, 2022)

We have a saying around the recovery tables. It’s not that I’ve never been charged with a DUI. It’s that I haven’t been charged with one _*yet.*_


----------



## Rolltydr (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Well you have to play the same games Wyndham does to benefit yourself. It has been 2 years and I haven't had any issues not taxing myself or owners I still work with.


No, thank you. I prefer to be honest and ethical. I’m not perfect but I’m also not knowingly going to lie or cheat. But, since you’ve shown you’re willing to do either, you deserve to be ignored. Bye.


----------



## chapjim (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Well you have to play the same games Wyndham does to benefit yourself. It has been 2 years and I haven't had any issues not taxing myself or owners I still work with.



If your biggest concern is Wyndham, you are missing the point.  @Rolltydr and I often spat but we are 100% in agreement on this matter.

Not reporting income is absolutely the worst offense in the tax world.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Well you have to play the same games Wyndham does to benefit yourself. It has been 2 years and I haven't had any issues not taxing myself or owners I still work with.


80,000+ new IRS agents might change that...


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 2, 2022)

Bunk said:


> What would you do If the customer wants to tape the presentation or asks for something in writing confirming some of the representations that were made at the presentation?


Soon as it's known someone is recording it becomes very compliant and ends quickly. As far as in writing they'll just say yeah I'll get it with your gift and you never get it. They always dance around requests and string along.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 2, 2022)

LannyPC said:


> What do you do if you sell to Joe Blow (JB) and then he sends in a rescission letter?  Do you call back trying to change his mind and salvage the sale (and thus, your commission)?  Or do you just let it go figuring it's not worth your time and effort?
> 
> If you do call back, what do you say to try to make JB change his mind?


Managers always made us try and salvage the sale but once the letter hit a QA's hands it was pretty much cancelled. Sometimes you could resale after and take some of the pack off so they get the same points for less money.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm curious if there are any negative sentiments towards potential buyers, not necessarily from you, but general backroom gossip.  Who gets the most frustration or laughter?  The incentive people who continue to never buy, resale owners, those easily pressured or manipulated, owners with too many points, couples that disagree, or something else?

Also, are our social media accounts ever observed beforehand?  We had a tour with Shell Vacation Club, and decided to mix things up by not talking about our cruising travels.  This was before becoming resale owners ourselves.  The presenter kept trying to bring up cruising multiple times, asking us which cruise line would be our favorite, despite us claiming we had never sailed.  Maybe playing games is your answer to question #1, but this was our 12th tour, and we were tired of the same conversations.


----------



## davidvel (Nov 3, 2022)

A former TS salesman advocates cheating on taxes. Classic.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 3, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I'm curious if there are any negative sentiments towards potential buyers, not necessarily from you, but general backroom gossip.  Who gets the most frustration or laughter?  The incentive people who continue to never buy, resale owners, those easily pressured or manipulated, owners with too many points, couples that disagree, or something else?
> 
> Also, are our social media accounts ever observed beforehand?  We had a tour with Shell Vacation Club, and decided to mix things up by not talking about our cruising travels.  This was before becoming resale owners ourselves.  The presenter kept trying to bring up cruising multiple times, asking us which cruise line would be our favorite, despite us claiming we had never sailed.  Maybe playing games is your answer to question #1, but this was our 12th tour, and we were tired of the same conversations.


Resale Owners are the main ones that were very difficult to handle. Everything else you could find a couple angles on before you get to the table but resale would usually be a quick survey, hit with BS numbers quick, and then take to gifting.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 3, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Largest was $110,000. Smallest was $15,000. Smallest package you can sell though is about $7,000 or however much 28,000 points cost now. Was $253 per 1,000 when I was there.



$7,000, ouch!  I had just looked at this listing, and wondered who bought 2 weeknights off season, and for how much? 









						WYNDHAM GRAND DESERT 28,000 POINTS, ANNUAL YEAR USAGE, TIMESHARE FOR SALE!!  | eBay
					

WYNDHAM GRAND DESERT. 28,000 WYNDHAM POINTS. WYNDHAM TRANSFERS TAKE APPROX. 5 TO 6 MONTHS TO COMPLETE WITH WYNDHAM. Pamper yourself with a dip in the hot tub, followed by a quick stop in the sauna. The resort provides shuttle transportation from the resort to Harrah's Casino on The Strip.



					www.ebay.com
				




I'm curious about trial packages.  What % of people buy them after turning down everything else?  Once they've stuck their toe in the water financially, how much easier are they to persuade in the followup presentation?


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I'm curious about trial packages. What % of people buy them after turning down everything else? Once they've stuck their toe in the water financially, how much easier are they to persuade in the followup presentation?


Marriott has said in the past that their conversion rates on closing from a trial/Encore package are higher than any other method they have for tour flow. I too would be interested to know how much better those closing rates are on a trial as compared to just an existing owner.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 3, 2022)

Probably less than 15%. But once they're in that "Discovery" Package they had a good "Equity" pitch that some fell for, but about 50% of DISCO Trial Owners converted I'm the end.


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 4, 2022)

What is the OP take on Hilton purchase of DRI ?


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 5, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What is the OP take on Hilton purchase of DRI ?


Hilton just bought them out. Nothing to it. Happens all the time in different businesses. A giant entity will buy a large independent company.


----------



## jules54 (Nov 5, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> You can rent every single point every year to whoever you want. If you're not doing it as a business and claiming taxes on it, then it's not commercial. Wyndham is just trying to push Extra Holidays to get their cut as usual. Worst-case right now Wyndham is locking out Guest Confirmations but with all the complaints they will back down eventually as usual.


This is not the case. Wyndham is not backing down on this. As far as the definition of what commercial renting is Wyndham decides that not the dictionary.
Doesnt do you any good to rent every point in your account as you said if Wyndham cancels the reservations that have guest confirmations on them. This means you have a bunch of furious customers and a ton of money you have to refund with nothing to show for all the work the owner put into the rentals.


----------



## jules54 (Nov 5, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Well you have to play the same games Wyndham does to benefit yourself. It has been 2 years and I haven't had any issues not taxing myself or owners I still work with.


Don’t worry Wyndham will get around to you. Thank you for posting, but I hope your not doing yourself a huge disservice by doing so.


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## am1 (Nov 6, 2022)

Not sure if asked but how many times did you lie and “steal” from people? Do you feel bad and came here to repent thinking that will make it all better?  Have you donated what you cheated people out of?


----------



## davidvel (Nov 6, 2022)

am1 said:


> Not sure if asked but how many times did you lie and “steal” from people? Do you feel bad and came here to repent thinking that will make it all better?  Have you donated what you cheated people out of?


Based on his tax comment, I doubt he cares.


----------



## kaljor (Nov 6, 2022)

How many new sales people (or a percentage) do you estimate wash out within their first year?  I ask because I took a job trying to sell mutual funds about 35 years ago and I sucked at it and left after 2 months.  I didn't believe in the product and the people I had to try to sell to were not people who should really be investing in the high cost product I was told to sell.  I never tried sales again!


----------



## CO skier (Nov 6, 2022)

am1 said:


> Not sure if asked but how many times did you lie and “steal” from people? Do you feel bad and came here to repent thinking that will make it all better?  Have you donated what you cheated people out of?


A certain perspective would suggest he was just "maximizing his employment" similar to how you "maximized your Wyndham ownership."  How many vacations did you cheat other owners out of using the cancel/rebook/upgrade scam and other loopholes?


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 6, 2022)

am1 said:


> Not sure if asked but how many times did you lie and “steal” from people? Do you feel bad and came here to repent thinking that will make it all better?  Have you donated what you cheated people out of?


I've gotten my owners that wanted out of Wyndham completely out and the others I've helped utilize their accounts to their advantage. I don't need to "repent" for anything nor do I care about making myself feel better. If Wyndham is what dictates someones daily life then I feel sorry for that person because that's a choice to not thrive and move forward elsewhere


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 6, 2022)

kaljor said:


> How many new sales people (or a percentage) do you estimate wash out within their first year?  I ask because I took a job trying to sell mutual funds about 35 years ago and I sucked at it and left after 2 months.  I didn't believe in the product and the people I had to try to sell to were not people who should really be investing in the high cost product I was told to sell.  I never tried sales again!


I don't know the math but a lot didn't make is past 60 days. On average it would take a rep 6 months just to get started unless they already had friends working that were closing deals for them.


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## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

Do you own a timeshare?  If not, which company would you choose, the lesser evil?


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> Do you own a timeshare?  If not, which company would you choose, the lesser evil?


Why do you imply that all timeshare companies are "evil"?

I own Club Wyndham and WorldMark by Wyndham.  Maybe it is because I purchased all resale that I do not consider Wyndham "evil."  The management is largely incompetent (witness the terrible new websites in both Clubs), but not evil.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Why do you imply that all timeshare companies are "evil"?
> 
> I own Club Wyndham and WorldMark by Wyndham.  Maybe it is because I purchased all resale that I do not consider Wyndham "evil."  The management is largely incompetent (witness the terrible new websites in both Clubs), but not evil.



If the answer to the first question is "NO", then it is an expression I'm going to use.  If someone is financially successful at selling timeshares, and chooses not to own, there's probably a good reason. 

The term "evil" is not meant to be taken literally.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> The term "evil" is not meant to be taken literally.


Then why use it at all?  It is a strong word.  You could have ended the question at the word "choose" instead of implying all timeshares are evil.


----------



## davidvel (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Then why use it at all?  It is a strong word.  You could have ended the question at the word "choose" instead of implying all timeshares are evil.


Probably because there are so many evil timeshare companies and sales persons, who prey on people who believe what the person tells them they are getting, only to find out the fine print of the contract says you can't believe what they tell you and you are SOL when you figure this out after the rescission period is over, and they have multi million dollar lawyers that will crush you if you challenge this.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

Yeah, like timeshares are the only businesses out there preying on people.  There is a lot of evilness in the business world.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

duplicate.  TUG has gone crazy.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

davidvel said:


> Probably because there are so many evil timeshare companies and sales persons, who prey on people who believe what the person tells them they are getting, only to find out the fine print of the contract says you can't believe what they tell you and you are SOL when you figure this out after the rescission period is over, and they have multi million dollar lawyers that will crush you if you challenge this.


You should post a poll on whether an owner thinks their timeshare is evil, or if they are a satisfied timeshare owner.  I would wager most timeshare owners think their timeshare ownership is not the result of "evilness."

There are 900,000+ owners in just the Wyndham system.  What percent think Wyndham is an "evil" company?  Why are they still owners?


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Then why use it at all?  It is a strong word.  You could have ended the question at the word "choose" instead of implying all timeshares are evil.





CO skier said:


> Yeah, like timeshares are the only businesses out there preying on people.  There is a lot of evilness in the business world.
> 
> View attachment 68124



You've contradicted yourself.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

davidvel said:


> Probably because there are so many evil timeshare companies and sales persons, who prey on people who believe what the person tells them they are getting, only to find out the fine print of the contract says you can't believe what they tell you and you are SOL when you figure this out after the rescission period is over, and they have multi million dollar lawyers that will crush you if you challenge this.


Here is a chart of the increasing ownership in WorldMark over the past few years.  I could post another chart that shows a decrease in the number of members during this time.  If timeshares, and WorldMark in particular, are so "evil," why do loyal WorldMark owners keep increasing their average holdings in the Club?  Why does anyone own a timeshare, if timeshares are so "evil."

btw - WorldMark timeshare owners now collectively own 3,867,766,000 credits.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> You've contradicted yourself.


You missed my point.  It is not "evilness" it is "just business."  Has been in the timeshare business for at least the last three decades, and many other businesses for much longer than that.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> You missed my point.  It is not "evilness" it is "just business."  Has been in the timeshare business for at least the last three decades, and many other businesses for much longer than that.



If you were offended, I don't care, it is just a phrase.  You referred to used car lots as having evilness, which is a good start, it creates healing to just let it out.


----------



## CO skier (Nov 7, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> If you were offended, I don't care, it is just a phrase.  You referred to used car lots as having evilness, which is a good start, it creates healing to just let it out.


I was not offended.  It just seemed overly dramatic, and untrue.

Why are you considering buying a timeshare in an "evil" timeshare system?



90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> We're considering buying an EOY contract.  Is there anything different from an annual contract, other than points being deposited EOY?  If my points were deposited in January 2023, and I wanted to push 77,000 points to 2024, would that work, or would they go into the next odd year?  Would a housekeeping token move as well, or stay in the current year?  We're only looking at 154,000 points or higher for resale demand.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Why are you considering buying a timeshare in an "evil" timeshare system?



Masochism


----------



## am1 (Nov 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> A certain perspective would suggest he was just "maximizing his employment" similar to how you "maximized your Wyndham ownership."  How many vacations did you cheat other owners out of using the cancel/rebook/upgrade scam and other loopholes?



What I did with cancel/rebook was not a scam and endorsed by the very people you are trying to defend.  I just took it to the extreme.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 7, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> Do you own a timeshare?  If not, which company would you choose, the lesser evil?


No. I would never and that's based on my comprehension of basic math. I stay in way nicer places with more flexibility and for significantly cheaper just using AirBnB and VrBo.


----------



## noreenkate (Nov 7, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> No. I would never and that's based on my comprehension of basic math. I stay in way nicer places with more flexibility and for significantly cheaper just using AirBnB and VrBo.



To me that speaks VOLUMES on why Wyndham and other timeshares companies  have the reputation that they do…

They don’t use the system so I can only conclude that 1- they don’t care about the product…

and why so many Tuggers seem to know more about the program than the sales department.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Nov 7, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> To me that speaks VOLUMES on why Wyndham and other timeshares companies  have the reputation that they do…
> 
> They don’t use the system so I can only conclude that 1- they don’t care about the product…
> 
> and why so many Tuggers seem to know more about the program than the sales department.



It is probably still true for many owners, and these sales reps are going to hear plenty of complaints during "owner's update meetings", even happy owners who don't understand much.

AirBnB still doesn't work out in our case.  The cheapest alternative is a total wash when you add tax and our 2nd stay in September.
https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/161906..._impression_id=p3_1667869832_tlQO5KO9owa7zyzT

The next cheapest comes to $1,640.13 between both stays.








						Sedona garden studio central to spectacular hikes! - Guest suites for Rent in Sedona, Arizona, United States
					

Entire guest suite in Sedona, United States. Beautifully decorated newly renovated garden studio with private entrance, patio, and designated parking. Plenty of outdoor space to enjoy drinks, ...




					www.airbnb.com
				




For $1,070 per year, I feel like this is the better deal.


----------



## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.



I didn't read through the five pages here before posting, so forgive me if this is a duplicate question, but what kind of annual salary is a sales person looking at in a normal (non recession, non COVID) year?


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> I didn't read through the five pages here before posting, so forgive me if this is a duplicate question, but what kind of annual salary is a sales person looking at in a normal (non recession, non COVID) year?



Sales reps aren't paid on salary - they are primarily paid on commission - so the comp varies markedly dependent upon performance.  The top reps in the sales centers - as per posts in this thread - make over 200k per year on average.  A handful of the top performers make even more (400-500k+).  I'd imagine the non-performers don't make much at all - and don't stay around very long as a result.


----------



## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Sales reps aren't paid on salary - they are primarily paid on commission - so the comp varies markedly dependent upon performance.  The top reps in the sales centers - as per posts in this thread - make over 200k per year on average.  A handful of the top performers make even more (400-500k+).  I'd imagine the non-performers don't make much at all - and don't stay around very long as a result.



Yeah, was wondering what the average someone makes annually selling time share. I should have left out "salary". I'm wondering, if knowing how to use the system, it's a good retirement job for me , although, not sure I could recommend buying retail without mentioning ebay resales in a sales meeting


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Nov 11, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> There at least 5 heavy hitters at each center on average. Majority of top reps will be the ones making the $200k+ a year.



How about the "average" reps comp in comparison?  I realize the top 10% of reps make good money (200k+) - but @Arimaas is asking about the 80% below the top 10% reps.  50k?  100k?  Do the reps typically work full time for Wyndham?  From what I've seen - many reps double as real estate agents outside of Wyndham to make more money.


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## paxsarah (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> Yeah, was wondering what the average someone makes annually selling time share. I should have left out "salary". I'm wondering, if knowing how to use the system, it's a good retirement job for me , although, not sure I could recommend buying retail without mentioning ebay resales in a sales meeting


Sadly, I would guess that knowing the system is far less of a useful job skill than the ability to sell retail at all costs. If there's one telltale sign I've seen on Facebook with the various current or former salespeople who show up in the groups and dip into conversations without mentioning they're a salesperson, it's very confident hostility and untruths about resale.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> How about the "average" reps comp in comparison?  I realize the top 10% of reps make good money (200k+) - but @Arimaas is asking about the 80% below the top 10% reps.  50k?  100k?  Do the reps typically work full time for Wyndham?  From what I've seen - many reps double as real estate agents outside of Wyndham to make more money.


If you don't sell a minimum in volume 2 months in a row you're terminated. Minimum varies by location.  But if you were to scrape by without getting fired, technically you could make your Draw pay only which is minimum wage.


----------



## Lillypad (Nov 22, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I was an In-House Sales Rep for almost 3 years. The answer to that question is simply never. They only do what they have to disciplinary wise when the Real Estate Commission gets involved. As long as they're making money they do not care about deception until there is proof and they have to act on it.





RowdyRiner said:


> REC only intercedes when multiple complaints are pushed through Wyndham when people try to cancel after Rescission Period. Wyndham is so large that you really can't pressure them or REC to do anything.



Could you elaborate? How frequently does this happen? is it only through some rescission process, or other means like directly from the REC, and how are these complaints handled?


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 22, 2022)

So TS sales individuals are independent  contractors for tax purposes.


----------



## Richelle (Nov 23, 2022)

@RowdyRiner in your opinion how much does Wyndham corporate really know about what goes on at the resort level?

What is the best and fastest way to shut a sales person down if you have no intention of buying and just want the free gift?

What's the best and fastest way to shut down a parking pass Nazi....I mean concierge, if you do not want to deal with the back and forth about why you do not want to go to a presentation?

I was one of the lucky ones who got on the Do not sell/solicit list before they started telling people no when they asked.  I have have been asked twice to go in the past couple of years.

If we want to report a sales person for deception or illegal practices, who is the best place to go to?  REC?  States Attorney?  Owner care?  BBB?

FYI, Wyndham publicly defines commercial use as advertising a rental.  This applies to Facebook AirBnB, Redweek, VRBO, etc.  So regardless of whether you report your income in your taxes, they will send you a nasty gram if you advertise rentals.  I do know of one person who didn't advertise anything but got the letter.  I'm wondering if it was because they were an admin of a large Facebook group that specially promotes renting.  None of the rest of us got that letter, so I am not sure if that is the case. 

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions and satisfying our curiosity.


----------



## bnoble (Nov 23, 2022)

Richelle said:


> What's the best and fastest way to shut down a parking pass Nazi....I mean concierge, if you do not want to deal with the back and forth about why you do not want to go to a presentation?


My “easiest out” was during my separation: “I’m in the middle of a nasty divorce, and there’s no way I can buy anything.” The concierge was recently divorced as well, and let me off the hook right away.

I might use that one again even though we’ve reconciled.


----------



## Eric B (Nov 23, 2022)

bnoble said:


> My “easiest out” was during my separation: “I’m in the middle of a nasty divorce, and there’s no way I can buy anything.” The concierge was recently divorced as well, and let me off the hook right away.
> 
> I might use that one again even though we’ve reconciled.



Sounds like a good one; I wonder how that would work when I check in with my wife. Guess I could just tell them she's my girlfriend....


----------



## Richelle (Nov 23, 2022)

bnoble said:


> My “easiest out” was during my separation: “I’m in the middle of a nasty divorce, and there’s no way I can buy anything.” The concierge was recently divorced as well, and let me off the hook right away.
> 
> I might use that one again even though we’ve reconciled.


Glad to hear you reconciled.  I was thinking of telling them that I lost my job and on my last week of severance might do the trick.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 23, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Sounds like a good one; I wonder how that would work when I check in with my wife. Guess I could just tell them she's my girlfriend....



Hey whatever works right?   

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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## Eric B (Nov 23, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Hey whatever works right?
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving everyone!



Whenever they ask if we're married, we do ask them if they mean to each other....


----------



## scootr5 (Nov 23, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Sounds like a good one; I wonder how that would work when I check in with my wife. Guess I could just tell them she's my girlfriend....



I've done that at Glacier Canyon.


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## lotus921v (Nov 23, 2022)

Richelle said:


> @RowdyRiner in your opinion how much does Wyndham corporate really know about what goes on at the resort level?
> 
> What is the best and fastest way to shut a sales person down if you have no intention of buying and just want the free gift?
> 
> ...



So I had an issue where a credit card was applied for without my signature directly after a sales presentation.  I also was hugely disrespected and felt like they were trying to con me.  I sent one of those emails to the guy at corporate and escalated it a few times.  I forgot I asked to never be bothered again.  I was trying to figure out why when I had a sales question and contacted them directly that I wouldn't get call backs.  I totally forgot about it until last night.  We will put it to the test for spring break and forward to see if anybody asks me, or if I got put on the list at the corporate level for pitching a huge fit and telling them I wanted the names of the salesman and manager so I could file a police report 

Time will tell!


----------



## Richelle (Nov 27, 2022)

I hope we didn't lose @RowdyRiner.  His last post was 15 days ago.


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## pedro47 (Nov 27, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Here is a chart of the increasing ownership in WorldMark over the past few years.  I could post another chart that shows a decrease in the number of members during this time.  If timeshares, and WorldMark in particular, are so "evil," why do loyal WorldMark owners keep increasing their average holdings in the Club?  Why does anyone own a timeshare, if timeshares are so "evil."
> 
> btw - WorldMark timeshare owners now collectively own 3,867,766,000 credits.View attachment 68125


What is the average credit for a one night stay or a seven (7) nights stay?


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 27, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What is the average credit for a one night stay or a seven (7) nights stay?


You're asking how many credits for a week at a WorldMark resort?  It varies.  Newer resorts are credited higher.  Older resorts are extremely reasonable.  For example, a Dolphin's Cove 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom for 7 nights is 10,000 credits, or about $840. A 3 bedroom is 12,000 credits, so only about $168 more than a 2 bedroom.  Those are incredibly nice, especially after the major update of last year.  

Estes Park is pretty reasonable, too, and so is Yellowstone, but the newer resort in Granby is pointed higher and not really all that great.  

I love WorldMark as a product, but we bought it to use it and it's not turned out that way.


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## Tropicgirl13 (Nov 27, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> How long did it take you to size someone up on their knowledge?
> 
> I went to a presentation once and the guy told me a few minutes in "It's obvious I'm not going to sell you anything, but let's just chat for a bit and I'll let you guys out early". Sadly, I think my account got blacklisted because I have never been invited back.


I think I have been black listed as well......  After purchasing one in Hawaii, only to cancel 6 days later.


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## Breezy52 (Nov 27, 2022)

Tropicgirl13 said:


> I think I have been black listed as well......  After purchasing one in Hawaii, only to cancel 6 days later.


I am now making my 2023 resolution to get blacklisted!


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 27, 2022)

Breezy52 said:


> I am now making my 2023 resolution to get blacklisted!


Become a mega renter, and you will accomplish that goal!  They hate us.


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## Tropicgirl13 (Nov 27, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Become a mega renter, and you will accomplish that goal!  They hate us.


I have to figure out how to be a mega renter and not a timeshare listener......


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 27, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You're asking how many credits for a week at a WorldMark resort?  It varies.  Newer resorts are credited higher.  Older resorts are extremely reasonable.  For example, a Dolphin's Cove 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom for 7 nights is 10,000 credits, or about $840. A 3 bedroom is 12,000 credits, so only about $168 more than a 2 bedroom.  Those are incredibly nice, especially after the major update of last year.
> 
> Estes Park is pretty reasonable, too, and so is Yellowstone, but the newer resort in Granby is pointed higher and not really all that great.
> 
> I love WorldMark as a product, but we bought it to use it and it's not turned out that way.





rickandcindy23 said:


> You're asking how many credits for a week at a WorldMark resort?  It varies.  Newer resorts are credited higher.  Older resorts are extremely reasonable.  For example, a Dolphin's Cove 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom for 7 nights is 10,000 credits, or about $840. A 3 bedroom is 12,000 credits, so only about $168 more than a 2 bedroom.  Those are incredibly nice, especially after the major update of last year.
> 
> Estes Park is pretty reasonable, too, and so is Yellowstone, but the newer resort in Granby is pointed higher and not really all that great.
> 
> I love WorldMark as a product, but we bought it to use it and it's not turned out that way.


THANK!


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## CO skier (Nov 29, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What is the average credit for a one night stay or a seven (7) nights stay?


The median credits required for all resorts are 8,000 for 7 nights in a 1 bedroom and 10,000 credits for 7 nights in a 2 bedroom.  At the average ownership level of 17,000-18,000 credits, that is less than $800 for the 1 bedroom week and less than $1,000 for the 2 bedroom week.  I think these costs will hold true in 2023 even after the 7.9% increase in maintenance fees.

On a nightly basis, Friday and Saturday nights are twice the credit cost as Monday through Thursday nights, which is why I avoid Friday and Saturday nights whenever possible (90% of the time for me).


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> The median credits required for all resorts are 8,000 for 7 nights in a 1 bedroom and 10,000 credits for 7 nights in a 2 bedroom.  At the average ownership level of 17,000-18,000 credits, that is less than $800 for the 1 bedroom week and less than $1,000 for the 2 bedroom week.  I think these costs will hold true in 2023 even after the 7.9% increase in maintenance fees.
> 
> On a nightly basis, Friday and Saturday nights are twice the credit cost as Monday through Thursday nights, which is why I avoid Friday and Saturday nights whenever possible (90% of the time for me).


Thanks, that is the answer, I was searching for.


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## RowdyRiner (Nov 29, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> So TS sales individuals are independent  contractors for tax purposes.


Not all. Wyndham you're a regular W-2 Employee.


----------



## RowdyRiner (Nov 29, 2022)

Richelle said:


> @RowdyRiner in your opinion how much does Wyndham corporate really know about what goes on at the resort level?
> 
> What is the best and fastest way to shut a sales person down if you have no intention of buying and just want the free gift?
> 
> ...


Wyndham Corporate knows all and does not care as long as they're making money. The best way to shut down Salesman and Marketing (Concierge) is to say you're going through bankruptcy or you're in a Lawsuit to Cancel Ownership. As far as complaining, you can call Owner Care but that hardly does anything. Lawyers won't mess with it without money, and the REC wants proof prior, so a recording or screenshots of some sort. Also, to clarify. I pay taxes on all my income, people were just being annoying and it was too easy to elicit a response.


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## RowdyRiner (Nov 29, 2022)

Richelle said:


> I hope we didn't lose @RowdyRiner.  His last post was 15 days ago.


I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.


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## Lisa P (Nov 29, 2022)

Sorry to hear of your loss - especially hard near holidays. Thank you for sharing your impressions and experiences here.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 29, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.



So sorry to hear about a death in your family.  Sincerest condolences on your loss.


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Not all. Wyndham you're a regular W-2 Employee.



I dont know about Wyndham but there was a day that I worked on 100% commission and was a w-2 employee, with benefits, health care, a pension plan and 401k


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## RowdyRiner (Nov 29, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I dont know about Wyndham but there was a day that I worked on 100% commission and was a w-2 employee, with benefits, health care, a pension plan and 401k


Well yes with Wyndham you are still 100% Commission because you pay the Draw back and yes you get benefits.


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## CO skier (Nov 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> but the newer resort in Granby is pointed higher and not really all that great.


I spent 4 nights (Monday through Thursday) over New Years right after the 4 Bedroom Casitas opened at WorldMark Granby.  It was like having our own million dollar mountain cabin!  Private hot tub on the deck (it was so cold our hair collected icicles, but we just cranked-up the temperature and drank some wine).  It was wellllll worth whatever credits we paid.

Any other timeshares -- Marriot, Hilton, Vistana -- have stand alone 3 and 4 bedroom mountain cabins with private hot tubs in their systems?


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## Breezy52 (Nov 29, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.


Take care, take your time


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## pedro47 (Nov 30, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.


I'm very sorry to hear about the loss in your family. It is never a good time to lose a family member or a friend.

Please take care of yourself and your family.


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## pedro47 (Nov 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I spent 4 nights (Monday through Thursday) over New Years right after the 4 Bedroom Casitas opened at WorldMark Granby.  It was like having our own million dollar mountain cabin!  Private hot tub on the deck (it was so cold our hair collected icicles, but we just cranked-up the temperature and drank some wine).  It was wellllll worth whatever credits we paid.
> 
> Any other timeshares -- Marriot, Hilton, Vistana -- have stand alone 3 and 4 bedroom mountain cabins with private hot tubs in their systems?


Sound liked a penthouse.


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## Breezy52 (Nov 30, 2022)

This isn’t in the mountains, but it simply wonderful, the Worldmark at Deer Harbor on orcas Island. Each unit has a hot tub on the deck. There is one each  of a three bedroom and a two bedroom right on the harbor front. We’ve been to orcas five times and it’s one of our favorites, although it is getting rather crowded or such a small island. for the first time we have snagged the three bedroom next summer.  Which will be great if family can come, although for ourselves, the studios are just awesome best studios in the system.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I spent 4 nights (Monday through Thursday) over New Years right after the 4 Bedroom Casitas opened at WorldMark Granby.  It was like having our own million dollar mountain cabin!  Private hot tub on the deck (it was so cold our hair collected icicles, but we just cranked-up the temperature and drank some wine).  It was wellllll worth whatever credits we paid.
> 
> Any other timeshares -- Marriot, Hilton, Vistana -- have stand alone 3 and 4 bedroom mountain cabins with private hot tubs in their systems?



OK - I'm officially going to start using the Club Pass availability search for Wyndham Granby based upon your feedback here.  Sounds like a great place!


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## bnoble (Nov 30, 2022)

Granby is also within easy striking distance of the Kawuneeche entrance to RMNP, and I like Grand Lake _much_ better than Estes Park. Not nearly as over-run with tourists. You have to get up earlier if you are going to the Bear Lake area, but that's a small price to pay.


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## sue1947 (Nov 30, 2022)

Breezy52 said:


> This isn’t in the mountains, but it simply wonderful, the Worldmark at Deer Harbor on orcas Island. for the first time we have snagged the three bedroom next summer.  Which will be great if family can come, although for ourselves, the studios are just awesome best studios in the system.


Just be aware that the 3rd bedroom is really for kids only; and small kids.  There's a king upstairs, and a Q down which are both fine.  The 3rd bedroom is small; imagine a closet that you put a couple of bunk beds in.   If you don't need the extra beds, the 2 BR is a better option.   However, for value, the studios up on the hill are the best bets.


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## Breezy52 (Nov 30, 2022)

sue1947 said:


> Just be aware that the 3rd bedroom is really for kids only; and small kids.  There's a king upstairs, and a Q down which are both fine.  The 3rd bedroom is small; imagine a closet that you put a couple of bunk beds in.   If you don't need the extra beds, the 2 BR is a better option.   However, for value, the studios up on the hill are the best bets.


Thank you for the information on the third bedroom. Just happen to get offered today the two bedroom as well for basically the same days. I think we’re just going to need to take both but happy just to try those.


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## CO skier (Nov 30, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> OK - I'm officially going to start using the Club Pass availability search for Wyndham Granby based upon your feedback here.  Sounds like a great place!


PM me.  Maybe you or anyone who wants to trade and save the exchange costs of Club Pass or  II or RCI can work something out.  And obviously if someone wants to exchange more that 9 months in advance through Club Pass.

Anyone interested in WorldMark West Yellowstone for summer 2024?  Just sayin' ...


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## chapjim (Dec 1, 2022)

This thread is a bit off track.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 1, 2022)

chapjim said:


> This thread is a bit off track.


 I found it odd that this turned this into a trading vacations and/or renting Worldmarks discussion.  Probably belonged in one of the Mega Renter Threads.


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## Breezy52 (Dec 1, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> I found it odd that this turned this into a trading vacations and/or renting Worldmarks discussion.  Probably belonged in one of the Mega Renter Threads.


Great idea thanks for doing that. I am not a mega renter and still interested in the thread.


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## Richelle (Dec 1, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.


So sorry to hear that.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions.


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## Richelle (Dec 1, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I'm here. Sorry for delay. Holidays and death in the family so I haven't checked in until today.


Just a question to hopefully bring this thread back on track.  For someone who wants to buy retail so they can go VIP, what negotiating tactics would you recommend?  I see so many people MSRP or close to it, because they don't want to haggle.  I don't like it either, so any tips to speed up the negotiation process might help those who want to buy, but don't want to pay full price.


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## lotus921v (Dec 1, 2022)

Richelle said:


> Just a question to hopefully bring this thread back on track.  For someone who wants to buy retail so they can go VIP, what negotiating tactics would you recommend?  I see so many people MSRP or close to it, because they don't want to haggle.  I don't like it either, so any tips to speed up the negotiation process might help those who want to buy, but don't want to pay full price.


Also what is the lowest $/point you’ve ever seen sold from a developer purchase


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 2, 2022)

Richelle said:


> Just a question to hopefully bring this thread back on track.  For someone who wants to buy retail so they can go VIP, what negotiating tactics would you recommend?  I see so many people MSRP or close to it, because they don't want to haggle.  I don't like it either, so any tips to speed up the negotiation process might help those who want to buy, but don't want to pay full price.


The cheapest way to buy retail is possible at 2 Locations. Wyndham Fairfield Glade (Crossville, TN) or any Myrtle Beach sales center. The reason why is because they have a "Piggyback" List,  which is where they sell owners deeded properties (Deeded at Fairfield Glade or Myrtle Beach) to you, but you have to buy Developer points as well. So basically you would buy 126,000 at MSRP, but then you could buy you one off the list for very cheap. They usually only  let you buy up to same amount of retail points you purchased, but sometimes they'll let you buy more. They treat it as a BOGO deal pretty much and since they do the transfer it all counts as VIP, not resale.  A couple things though. 1. The MF on those old deeded properties are usually stupid high. 2. They only reason they have those listed is because they screwed someone over and told them if they bought, they would sell those Deeded properties and that would offset the purchase cost to get a lower MF. In summary, technically you could buy this way and almost spend a 1/3 of MSRP, but someone, somewhere got screwed either way.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 2, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> Also what is the lowest $/point you’ve ever seen sold from a developer purchase


See my reply to Richelle about the "Piggyback" List I just posted. If I had to put it into dollar amounts I'd say for example, if someone bought 126,000 at $239 p/1,000 that's about $30,000. Then I've seen people buy a 126,000 off the list for $5,000. So they technically got 252,000 points for $35k so about $140 p/1,000. The other thing about it is though, say the rep did tell the owner who is selling the property that they would list it for $5,000. They don't find out until day that someone goes to buy it that there is a minimum $1,500 fee that goes to the broker for doing the transaction,  so that owner that was told he would get $5,000 only gets $3,500 back. That goes back to the "Piggyback" reply.


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## am1 (Dec 2, 2022)

Why? 


Richelle said:


> I hope we didn't lose @RowdyRiner.  His last post was 15 days ago.


Maybe. I was hoping he would leave and not come back.


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## lotus921v (Dec 2, 2022)

am1 said:


> Why?
> 
> Maybe. I was hoping he would leave and not come back.


Personally I very much appreciate having him on here.  Don’t be mean.


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## Silverdollar (Dec 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> The cheapest way to buy retail is possible at 2 Locations. Wyndham Fairfield Glade (Crossville, TN) or any Myrtle Beach sales center. The reason why is because they have a "Piggyback" List,  which is where they sell owners deeded properties (Deeded at Fairfield Glade or Myrtle Beach) to you, but you have to buy Developer points as well. So basically you would buy 126,000 at MSRP, but then you could buy you one off the list for very cheap. They usually only  let you buy up to same amount of retail points you purchased, but sometimes they'll let you buy more. They treat it as a BOGO deal pretty much and since they do the transfer it all counts as VIP, not resale.  A couple things though. 1. The MF on those old deeded properties are usually stupid high. 2. They only reason they have those listed is because they screwed someone over and told them if they bought, they would sell those Deeded properties and that would offset the purchase cost to get a lower MF. In summary, technically you could buy this way and almost spend a 1/3 of MSRP, but someone, somewhere got screwed either way.


In 2015, I purchased a "Piggyback" deed from a list at Ocean Ridge worth 413,000 points for $16,500. I had to buy Developer points worth 64,000 for $13,500. They said I could make another Piggyback purchase within 30 days of this purchase with no additional Developer purchase. So, I made another small Piggyback purchase of 77,000 for $3,500. Both Piggybacks had very reasonable MF. (I double-checked the contracts before posting this to make sure the amounts were correct.)

At that time, there were 4 Wyndham locations that offered Piggyback deeds. Later, Wyndham changed the policy to require a purchase of an equal number of Developer points to Piggyback points. Then, I heard that Wyndham no longer offered the Piggybacks at any location. So, your mention of the 2 remaining locations is news to me.

If the Piggyback offer still exists at the 2 locations, you may still be able to get a good deal if you can negotiate the Developer points down and select a Piggyback with reasonable MF, and get it in writing before making a purchase. I am thinking, if there is a deal to be made, it will occur between now and the end of the year.

I forgot to mention that Piggybacks are treated the same as Developer points and count toward VIP. They are not treated like resale.


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> See my reply to Richelle about the "Piggyback" List I just posted. If I had to put it into dollar amounts I'd say for example, if someone bought 126,000 at $239 p/1,000 that's about $30,000. Then I've seen people buy a 126,000 off the list for $5,000. So they technically got 252,000 points for $35k so about $140 p/1,000. The other thing about it is though, say the rep did tell the owner who is selling the property that they would list it for $5,000. They don't find out until day that someone goes to buy it that there is a minimum $1,500 fee that goes to the broker for doing the transaction,  so that owner that was told he would get $5,000 only gets $3,500 back. That goes back to the "Piggyback" reply.



Just a heads up - I've been told by two different sales reps at two different resorts in Myrtle Beach and in Edisto that they are no longer selling piggybacks for resorts out of SC state.  I'm assuming if there's a seller on the other side like you're saying, that the contract has to already be paid off of course.  I wish Wyndham would allow for existing owners that have loan balances or unpaid balances on their contracts and want out to utilize this same piggyback model and allow an interested Wyndham owner to essentially "buy out" the sellers loan in full and enjoy whatever the "discount rate" is in doing so.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 2, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Just a heads up - I've been told by two different sales reps at two different resorts in Myrtle Beach and in Edisto that they are no longer selling piggybacks for resorts out of SC state.  I'm assuming if there's a seller on the other side like you're saying, that the contract has to already be paid off of course.  I wish Wyndham would allow for existing owners that have loan balances or unpaid balances on their contracts and want out to utilize this same piggyback model and allow an interested Wyndham owner to essentially "buy out" the sellers loan in full and enjoy whatever the "discount rate" is in doing so.


Fairfield Glade is still doing the Piggyback List.  They use it to build urgency so if you keep saying no, they will let you buy more Piggyback than developer. They had a 308,000 on the list for around $15k as of a few months ago still too.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 2, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> Fairfield Glade is still doing the Piggyback List.  They use it to build urgency so if you keep saying no, they will let you buy more Piggyback than developer. They had a 308,000 on the list for around $15k as of a few months ago still too.


I just talked to an acquaintance at Edisto and he confirmed they quit selling those. Thanks for letting me know. He said there were too many complaints and issues about the buying and selling process that were escalated so they lost their privilege.


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## kaljor (Dec 2, 2022)

I think this is my last question.  I've only been an owner for 7 years.  I agree to go to a lot of these sales meetings, but not always.  It depends on the money (or Rewards points) being offered, and it depends on my mood at the time.  Over the past 3 years, I've received about $1000, and I've always known that I won't buy any more points  simply because I have exactly the right amount of points for my needs.

So I wonder if they keep track of members who attend frequently but never buy.  I think if I was in charge of the program I would.  But I always get high pressured to attend, and I've usually made up my mind before I even check in.  In this age of all statistics being available at the touch of a keyboard, why don't they stop offering me money to attend?

Not that I want them to stop, I'm just so curious about this.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 3, 2022)

kaljor said:


> I think this is my last question.  I've only been an owner for 7 years.  I agree to go to a lot of these sales meetings, but not always.  It depends on the money (or Rewards points) being offered, and it depends on my mood at the time.  Over the past 3 years, I've received about $1000, and I've always known that I won't buy any more points  simply because I have exactly the right amount of points for my needs.
> 
> So I wonder if they keep track of members who attend frequently but never buy.  I think if I was in charge of the program I would.  But I always get high pressured to attend, and I've usually made up my mind before I even check in.  In this age of all statistics being available at the touch of a keyboard, why don't they stop offering me money to attend?
> 
> Not that I want them to stop, I'm just so curious about this.



Mcdonald's always asks if you would like fries with your order .......

I would assume it is the same reason - it does expand sales - and the algorithms cannot predict who will " change their mind".


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## Richelle (Dec 3, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> I just talked to an acquaintance at Edisto and he confirmed they quit selling those. Thanks for letting me know. He said there were too many complaints and issues about the buying and selling process that were escalated so they lost their privilege.


I know Sedona sells Flagstaff Piggybacks.   The maintenance fees are not great but they are right in line with CWA.  I would assume Flaggstaff sells those piggybacks as well.  You do have to buy regular points of course.  I heard 200k, but I am sure they might make an exception here and there depending on the situation and time of year/month.

That reminds me, how big is the push at the end of the month or end of the year to sell?  Is it a harder push then in the beginning of the month, or beginning of the year?  I would imagine they have sales figures they have to meet.  Wondering when is the best time to get the best deals.  I would think December, but that's assuming they do have sales figures they have to meet.


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## paxsarah (Dec 3, 2022)

Richelle said:


> The maintenance fees are not great but they are right in line with CWA.


Depends on the season. My Flagstaff converted week (prime at 182k) was great before 2 years of double digit increases, and even now is $1.30/k lower than CWA.


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## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Dec 4, 2022)

I'm curious on how common it is for sales reps to gamble with each other on whether a particular target will buy a timeshare.

We were at Diamond Resorts in Sedona a few years back, the last customers to leave the building.  After turning down the trial package, the rep said, "He tricked me, he said you would be an easy buy!  I lost $50 betting on this!"  He then ran upstairs, and I heard quite a bit of yelling and shouting.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 4, 2022)

kaljor said:


> I think this is my last question.  I've only been an owner for 7 years.  I agree to go to a lot of these sales meetings, but not always.  It depends on the money (or Rewards points) being offered, and it depends on my mood at the time.  Over the past 3 years, I've received about $1000, and I've always known that I won't buy any more points  simply because I have exactly the right amount of points for my needs.
> 
> So I wonder if they keep track of members who attend frequently but never buy.  I think if I was in charge of the program I would.  But I always get high pressured to attend, and I've usually made up my mind before I even check in.  In this age of all statistics being available at the touch of a keyboard, why don't they stop offering me money to attend?
> 
> Not that I want them to stop, I'm just so curious about this.


They do track how many you attend but that's mainly to track Sales Closing percentages. They'll never stop offering either because it's always an opportunity to sell. "I've got the exact amount of points I need" is a common objection I've overcame and sold to many times. Also, sold people who hadn't bought in 20+ years. That's why they'll never stop gifting you.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 4, 2022)

Richelle said:


> I know Sedona sells Flagstaff Piggybacks.   The maintenance fees are not great but they are right in line with CWA.  I would assume Flaggstaff sells those piggybacks as well.  You do have to buy regular points of course.  I heard 200k, but I am sure they might make an exception here and there depending on the situation and time of year/month.
> 
> That reminds me, how big is the push at the end of the month or end of the year to sell?  Is it a harder push then in the beginning of the month, or beginning of the year?  I would imagine they have sales figures they have to meet.  Wondering when is the best time to get the best deals.  I would think December, but that's assuming they do have sales figures they have to meet.


No particular month is bigger than the other for push. Salesman are obviously hungrier a couple months before holidays for obvious reasons and they also drive harder before there areas slow time. The end of the month though, yes the pressure is higher because reps are trying to hit top level too.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 4, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I'm curious on how common it is for sales reps to gamble with each other on whether a particular target will buy a timeshare.
> 
> We were at Diamond Resorts in Sedona a few years back, the last customers to leave the building.  After turning down the trial package, the rep said, "He tricked me, he said you would be an easy buy!  I lost $50 betting on this!"  He then ran upstairs, and I heard quite a bit of yelling and shouting.


Never seen or done that at Locations I worked at.


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## markb53 (Dec 4, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> They do track how many you attend but that's mainly to track Sales Closing percentages. They'll never stop offering either because it's always an opportunity to sell. "I've got the exact amount of points I need" is a common objection I've overcame and sold to many times. Also, sold people who hadn't bought in 20+ years. That's why they'll never stop gifting you.



I’ve agreed to do an owner update only to be called later to cancel because “I am not in the rotation right now”


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## bnoble (Dec 4, 2022)

I suspect if they have more than they can handle in a day (because they mistakenly over-booked, or someone called in sick), they make some educated guesses about who isn't buying. At least, that's what I'd do. And, you can bet that anyone who (a) had resale points in their account and (b) had been to many updates before would be right near the top of the "let's not do that" list.


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## TerryH (Dec 4, 2022)

I signed up for a Deed of Re-Conveyance today,I made a credit card down payment,now I'm on the hook for $20,000.00 US, and now I'm having second thoughts,is there anything I can do at this time?


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## kaljor (Dec 4, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> They do track how many you attend but that's mainly to track Sales Closing percentages. They'll never stop offering either because it's always an opportunity to sell. "I've got the exact amount of points I need" is a common objection I've overcame and sold to many times. Also, sold people who hadn't bought in 20+ years. That's why they'll never stop gifting you.


 Well that does make sense.  I could quibble that after some years of no sale they might try to reduce your offerings to maybe twice a year, but I suppose they do know best from all the data they must have.

Thanks for entertaining all our questions.  It's been a lot of fun and very informative.


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## lotus921v (Dec 4, 2022)

TerryH said:


> I signed up for a Deed of Re-Conveyance today,I made a credit card down payment,now I'm on the hook for $20,000.00 US, and now I'm having second thoughts,is there anything I can do at this time?




Yes.  Follow the directions on your contract precisely with proof of delivery and rescind immediately


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## TerryH (Dec 5, 2022)

I have never been in this position before,but the paperwork was signed and stamped by a commissioned Notary Public,and i was told it was in effect immediately.


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## am1 (Dec 5, 2022)

Thank him for lying and stealing our money while you are at it.


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## Richelle (Dec 5, 2022)

TerryH said:


> I have never been in this position before,but the paperwork was signed and stamped by a commissioned Notary Public,and i was told it was in effect immediately.


Just because it's "In effect immediately" doesn't mean you cannot rescind.  I do not know of one state that doesn't have a rescission period.  Someone here will tell me if there is.


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## Moimommy (Dec 7, 2022)

Newbie question-are Wyndham points bought on resale (such as eBay) treated differently than points purchased at Wyndham? We currently have 300,000 Wyndham points which places us as VIP Bronze members. we attended a sales presentation today and they were trying to pressure us to buy more points to reach 500,000 points to be VIP Silver.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 7, 2022)

Moimommy said:


> Newbie question-are Wyndham points bought on resale (such as eBay) treated differently than points purchased at Wyndham? We currently have 300,000 Wyndham points which places us as VIP Bronze members. we attended a sales presentation today and they were trying to pressure us to buy more points to reach 500,000 points to be VIP Silver.


Resale does not count towards VIP.


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## sdl (Dec 7, 2022)

can resale timeshare be given back to Wyndham through their exit options or is that only available for timeshare bought from developer?


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 7, 2022)

sdl said:


> can resale timeshare be given back to Wyndham through their exit options or is that only available for timeshare bought from developer?



Yes, eligible resale contracts can be returned via Certified Exit.  The Limited Edition option is not available when returning resale contracts however. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 7, 2022)

sdl said:


> can resale timeshare be given back to Wyndham through their exit options or is that only available for timeshare bought from developer?


I just called Certified Exit today and they're taking back 2 of my resale deeds.


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## sdl (Dec 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, eligible resale contracts can be returned via Certified Exit.  The Limited Edition option is not available when returning resale contracts however.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are “eligible resale contracts”? I’m planning to buy a resale, not sure if wyndham will tell me if it is since I don’t own it yet.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 7, 2022)

Moimommy said:


> Newbie question-are Wyndham points bought on resale (such as eBay) treated differently than points purchased at Wyndham? We currently have 300,000 Wyndham points which places us as VIP Bronze members. we attended a sales presentation today and they were trying to pressure us to buy more points to reach 500,000 points to be VIP Silver.


The price difference between developer and resale is almost never justified. I'm 33 years old and am staying 100% resale even though I plan on owning at least another 30-40 years. When I did the math for the purchase price and VIP benefits, I wouldn't break even without unlimited housekeeping (which they took away in 2020). You're better off just investing the money into an appreciating asset. 

Wyndham has been stripping VIP benefits hoping to capitalize on peoples lack of knowledge and/or narcissism (wanting the title "VIP" on their ownership). There was a post that stuck out to me on Facebook of some old lady complaining that they got rid of the $19 reservation fee for all owners because she paid a lot of money for her VIP ownership to have that benefit and is entitled to it because of how much she paid (not the people who paid less than she did). 

All you get with your purchase cost is 15% discounts, 1 RARP per year, 1 extra HK token and suite upgrades 2 weeks out ONLY on the 300,000 points that you own. Club Pass (a retail only benefit) is completely useless because you can also go on Ebay and get a Worldmark deed if you want Worldmark access. All the good Worldmark inventory is booked up at 13 months by Worldmark owners before the reservation window opens for Club Wyndham owners at 9 months. You also can't apply the 15% discount on Worldmark inventory, only Club Wyndham. 

If you are looking to add on more points, I would strongly suggest researching other timeshare systems. I'm giving back 2 of my Wyndham deeds to get another Marriott week. When I first was researching Marriott, I didn't do enough extensive research on the 2 bedroom lock off Interval International exchange method and as a result overlooked how good of a value it actually is for my habits. I just looked up the maintenance fees and purchase price of Marriott Destination points and concluded it was too expensive for what you get. With exchanges, I noticed a lot of the Marriott FL inventory (where I live) has lock offs and I like splitting the cost with people I know because they are 2 separate hotel rooms. I get way more value being a resale owner in multiple systems than I would have being VIP in 1 system. For example, Marriott Lakeshore Reserve (in Orlando) costs about $2500/week to stay in a 2 bedroom lock off via points. I will use 1 side of my lock off to exchange into an entire 2 bedroom lock off for about $1200/week (less than half the price of using points). I will then find someone I know to take the 1 bedroom side for $800/week and use the studio for $400/week. Lakeshore Reserve is the nicest non DVC timeshare in all of Orlando and I'm able to stay there for $57/night by learning the system and manipulating it in my favor. You can't even staying in a motel off 192 for that price. 

Do your research and learn each system. You will save so much doing so.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 7, 2022)

sdl said:


> What are “eligible resale contracts”? I’m planning to buy a resale, not sure if wyndham will tell me if it is since I don’t own it yet.


No loan attached and has reasonable maintenance fees. There are some deeds that are $10 per thousand and Wyndham doesn't want them back because they can't resell them. If you get a low MF deed, they will take them back.


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## sdl (Dec 7, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> No loan attached and has reasonable maintenance fees. There are some deeds that are $10 per thousand and Wyndham doesn't want them back because they can't resell them. If you get a low MF deed, they will take them back.


Is $6 low?


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 8, 2022)

sdl said:


> Is $6 low?


No 4-5 range is.


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## bnoble (Dec 8, 2022)

sdl said:


> Is $6 low?


You will get varying opinions on this. You can form your own opinion by looking at this spreadsheet, which gives a fair number of price points across the system.








						Wyndham HOA Maint. Fees - History
					

Form Responses 1  Timestamp,Untitled Question




					docs.google.com
				




For me, anything appreciably below CWA is worth considering. In 2022, CWA is 6.93, so I would consider $6 worth a second look. IMO, there are two reasons why the ratio matters. The first is the obvious one: lower ratios have lower ongoing costs for the same vacation experiences. The second is that deeds with lower ratios are easier to dispose of. The second thing doesn't seem important given that Wyndham is more or less willing to take anything off your hands, but that program is not guaranteed to last forever. Having an "attractive" ratio gives you an extra exit strategy if you need it.

You absolutely can hold out for the "best" ratio if you want, but you will not be alone, and some of those end up selling for more than they are worth to me. The resale market is dominated by people who know what they are doing--because who else would ever look to buy a timeshare on their own?--and those folks disproportionally look for the lowest-fee resorts. You see those same few resorts repeated here over and over as attractive targets. It might be simpler to by a _slightly_ more expensive resort that is still comfortably inside your budget, is still easy to dispose of, but is easier (and faster) to obtain.

Ultimately, it comes down to why you are buying a timeshare in the first place. If you are trying to get the very best deal possible and want to squeeze every last dollar out of it, then be very particular about what you buy. But to me this is a bit of a fool's errand, because I am convinced that *nobody* saves money by owning timeshares. Yes, nearly anyone saves money on their owned timeshare vacation lodging compared to renting those exact same stays. But, nearly anyone who owns timeshares travels more often than they would if left to their own devices. Nearly all of us have taken the "my points are going to expire so I need to figure out how to use them" vacation, and while the lodging might be cheap, you still have to deal with food, transportation, and entertainment. So if you are buying as a commitment to vacation rather than to save every last dollar, maybe you don't care if you spend an extra couple hundred dollars per year on the timeshare portion?


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## paxsarah (Dec 8, 2022)

sdl said:


> What are “eligible resale contracts”? I’m planning to buy a resale, not sure if wyndham will tell me if it is since I don’t own it yet.





cbyrne1174 said:


> No loan attached and has reasonable maintenance fees. There are some deeds that are $10 per thousand and Wyndham doesn't want them back because they can't resell them. If you get a low MF deed, they will take them back.





sdl said:


> Is $6 low?





cbyrne1174 said:


> No 4-5 range is.


Just to clarify, a deed doesn't have to be in the $4-5 range for Wyndham to take it back via Certified Exit. Wyndham's list that they will accept is an ever moving target, and while we *surmise* that high-MF contracts are probably most likely to be excluded, there are no written criteria. From all reports, Wyndham will take back the vast majority of contracts at any given time. The ones I've heard of not being accepted are higher-MF contracts at older resorts. I also recently saw someone in a FB group post that Wyndham wouldn't take Atlanta because it was too new (and yes, they owned for just over a year so that evidently wasn't the exclusion). My philosophy has been that if the MFs and/or ARP is appealing and acceptable to me, then I'm probably in good shape when I decide to use Certified Exit or pass the contract on to another owner.


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## Arimaas (Dec 15, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Just to clarify, a deed doesn't have to be in the $4-5 range for Wyndham to take it back via Certified Exit. Wyndham's list that they will accept is an ever moving target, and while we *surmise* that high-MF contracts are probably most likely to be excluded, there are no written criteria. From all reports, Wyndham will take back the vast majority of contracts at any given time. The ones I've heard of not being accepted are higher-MF contracts at older resorts. I also recently saw someone in a FB group post that Wyndham wouldn't take Atlanta because it was too new (and yes, they owned for just over a year so that evidently wasn't the exclusion). My philosophy has been that if the MFs and/or ARP is appealing and acceptable to me, then I'm probably in good shape when I decide to use Certified Exit or pass the contract on to another owner.



Have you heard of Wyndham taking back any CWA contracts? I may have a 126K one I'm looking to dump now that I've picked up something else with higher points.


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## paxsarah (Dec 15, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> Have you heard of Wyndham taking back any CWA contracts? I may have a 126K one I'm looking to dump now that I've picked up something else with higher points.


Not off the top of my head, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone here has done it. It seems that would be the easiest type of contract for Wyndham to take back because it's the easiest transfer (no deed/county involved) and easiest to resell.


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## pedro47 (Dec 15, 2022)

To the OP , is owning a timeshare deed good or bad, especially if the timeshare owner do not have a mortgage. The timeshare is paid in full and all maintenance fees have been paid for 2023?


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 15, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> Have you heard of Wyndham taking back any CWA contracts? I may have a 126K one I'm looking to dump now that I've picked up something else with higher points.



Yes, Wyndham has taken back CWA contracts through Certified Exit.


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## WhatWasIThinking (Dec 16, 2022)

Thanks for the inside scoop.   

We paid 18K for 105,000 points. We were told we could get a week or longer in a resort for those points. We soon realized that was BS.  We can get 4 nights somewhere. We can get the same 4 nights on Kayak for less than our annual fee.  We'll never save enough to recover our 18K.    

In one post you said "_The whole purpose/ process to sell to an owner is "Finding the pain". Make them feel they were sold wrong package before and show them how you can fix it *without costing them anymore money."*_

How do you fix it without costing more money?  What should we be asking for?  
Thanks


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> Thanks for the inside scoop.
> 
> We paid 18K for 105,000 points. We were told we could get a week or longer in a resort for those points. We soon realized that was BS.  We can get 4 nights somewhere. We can get the same 4 nights on Kayak for less than our annual fee.  We'll never save enough to recover our 18K.
> 
> ...


You will never be able to get back the money you spent. You can default/foreclose on it if you have to. You can also learn the PIC plus program and get a cheap resale 3 bedroom deed to enroll into PIC to be at VIP bronze for another 49,000 points. A 3 bedroom PIC is worth 254,000, so you'd have 408,000 developer points to work with, which is enough for a few weeks.

I don't think bronze is worth the $8,000-9,000 pricetag on the 49,000 points for me because the benefits only apply to developer points (I'm 100% resale), but since there's not way to undo your purchase, it might be better to just do that so you at least get some VIP benefits with the high price tag of your original purchase. Bronze at least lets you have 15% off, 1 extra housekeeping token for short stays, suite upgrades at 2 weeks out (if available), and 1 reciprical ARP reservation at 11 months for hard to book places like Clearwater. 

If I were to buy 49,000 points, I would only be able to get the VIP benefits on those points plus the 254,000 PIC points. My 805,000 resale points won't be eligible for any of the benefits above, hence why I don't bother with it.


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## WhatWasIThinking (Dec 17, 2022)

Thanks.  
Very confusing program.  With Pic + I would need to buy a week at some 3br timeshare and then flip it into Wyndham? Is that correct?


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## bnoble (Dec 17, 2022)

PIC’s intended purpose is to overcome “I already own some other timeshare” objections on the sales floor. But enterprising TUGgers realized it could also be a way to obtain a discount on a particular VIP level. 

Whether that discounted price is or is not a good deal is unclear to me.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 17, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> Thanks.
> Very confusing program.  With Pic + I would need to buy a week at some 3br timeshare and then flip it into Wyndham? Is that correct?


Yes, if you need an example just look at the 4 BR at Massanutten on Timeshare Nation (free). The MF are $959. You pay $89 to covert it into Wyndham points plus the program fee($0.70 per thousand), so it's $4.83 per thousand in maintenance fees and the 254,000 points have VIP benefits.


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 19, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> Thanks for the inside scoop.
> 
> We paid 18K for 105,000 points. We were told we could get a week or longer in a resort for those points. We soon realized that was BS.  We can get 4 nights somewhere. We can get the same 4 nights on Kayak for less than our annual fee.  We'll never save enough to recover our 18K.
> 
> ...


That's the point. They don't.  They tell you they can fix it without cost but it does cost money.


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 19, 2022)

RowdyRiner said:


> That's the point. They don't.  They tell you they can fix it without cost but it does cost money.



And most of the time, it doesn't actually fix anything, other than lining Wyndham's sales and marketing pockets for the most part.  The vast majority of the costs associated with buying a developer timeshare are to fund the sales and marketing engine itself and to fund future property development - the latter of which has slowly been trailing off over time with preference toward acquiring existing timeshare properties on the cheap and then attempting to refurbish them after the fact.


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 19, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> Thanks.
> Very confusing program.  With Pic + I would need to buy a week at some 3br timeshare and then flip it into Wyndham? Is that correct?


I literally sang 'what was i thinking' when I saw your member name. Welcome to TUG!



			what was i thinking - Google Search


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## WhatWasIThinking (Dec 20, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> And most of the time, it doesn't actually fix anything, other than lining Wyndham's sales and marketing pockets for the most part. The vast majority of the costs associated with buying a developer timeshare are to fund the sales
> 
> 
> HitchHiker71 said:
> ...


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## WhatWasIThinking (Dec 20, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Yes, if you need an example just look at the 4 BR at Massanutten on Timeshare Nation (free). The MF are $959. You pay $89 to covert it into Wyndham points plus the program fee($0.70 per thousand), so it's $4.83 per thousand in maintenance fees and the 254,000 points have VIP benefits.


Thanks for the example but I don't think we want another 959/month payment.


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## WhatWasIThinking (Dec 20, 2022)

We stayed in Atlanta this past weekend.  Cost of half our points for 2 nights.  We were paid 100.00 to go to a presentation, which I requested to be private.  Two salesmen basically admitted that 105K points we paid 18K for is useless.  They said we could have bought enough for VIP for the same 18K/75/month so I thought they might give it to us.  ha.   When they came back they offered us another 400 points for something like 35,000, after we told them from the start we were not spending any more money.  We walked out. They laughed.  

I'm was thinking I could still enjoy a few nights a year at a discount with the 900.00 MF, ignoring the 18K that's gone for good, but we'll never enjoy being reminded of the money we lost while on vacation. 

Do the guys selling points on EBAY make any sense?


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 20, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> Thanks for the example but I don't think we want another 959/month payment.


You mean 959/year.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 20, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> We stayed in Atlanta this past weekend.  Cost of half our points for 2 nights.  We were paid 100.00 to go to a presentation, which I requested to be private.  Two salesmen basically admitted that 105K points we paid 18K for is useless.  They said we could have bought enough for VIP for the same 18K/75/month so I thought they might give it to us.  ha.   When they came back they offered us another 400 points for something like 35,000, after we told them from the start we were not spending any more money.  We walked out. They laughed.
> 
> I'm was thinking I could still enjoy a few nights a year at a discount with the 900.00 MF, ignoring the 18K that's gone for good, but we'll never enjoy being reminded of the money we lost while on vacation.
> 
> Do the guys selling points on EBAY make any sense?


That's where I got all of my points (eBay). Don't buy anymore developer points unless you plan to add a PIC with it first. You have to own the PIC first in order to get the deal. Almost all of the VIP people on here did it that way because the 959/year in MF I quoted is cheaper than owning almost anywhere. There are only a handful of locations that have MF less than 4.83 per thousand (959/year).


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## paxsarah (Dec 20, 2022)

WhatWasIThinking said:


> They said we could have bought enough for VIP for the same 18K/75/month so I thought they might give it to us.


The only way this could have been true is if you PIC'ed one or two non-Wyndham weeks as described above. You would of course also need to pay MFs on the PIC week(s), but you would have many more points available to you in Wyndham. You could have done that with the same points purchase you already made. (If this wasn't what the salespeople were referring to, then they were flat-out lying - or talking about temporary VIP via bonus points).


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## paxsarah (Dec 20, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> That's where I got all of my points (eBay). Don't buy anymore developer points unless you plan to add a PIC with it first. You have to own the PIC first in order to get the deal. Almost all of the VIP people on here did it that way because the 959/year in MF I quoted is cheaper than owning almost anywhere. There are only a handful of locations that have MF less than 4.83 per thousand (959/year).


When I toy with the idea of PIC'ing in two weeks with a small retail purchase, the math I run is entirely based on MF savings, as the VIP benefits currently would never make up for the purchase price in my situation (assuming I would land at silver).


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 20, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> When I toy with the idea of PIC'ing in two weeks with a small retail purchase, the math I run is entirely based on MF savings, as the VIP benefits currently would never make up for the purchase price in my situation (assuming I would land at silver).


Same here. Also a lot of the VIP savings you get with Wyndham, you can get similar saving percentages with Marriott exchanges. I was able to exchange my studio for a 2 bedroom last summer at Lakeshore Reserve for $900 for the week when the MF are $2400. I'm currently returning 3 of my deeds to Wyndham and picking up more Marriott once the market tanks even more.


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## Jethro37 (Dec 21, 2022)

Question around the piggyback and PIC discussion. 

My parents have had a 3 bedroom timeshare in Kissimmee FL for years.  we aren’t good at using the interval international trades on it so utilization is poor.  

Through in large part to insights gained here I was able to secure and utilize redial points at Bali Hai and Canterbury that get us great maintenance fees for our travel needs.  

I clued my parents into a 254k Bali hai resale and now they have Wyndham points that they are using.  

The PIC deal is the one thing I’ve had an interest in considerering to get them more Wyndham points available that they would actually make use of.  

I’m guessing the Fairfield Glade piggyback might mean they could convert more points to developer along with their PIC?  

It sounds like the downside is the MFs would be much worse than  Bali hai and perhaps CWA which to me is a major factor as it’s the cost you and your decedents  must live with. 

Would y’all see the piggyback making sense for PIC or are they better off just making a small purchase?   Is a purchase necessary at all for PIC or is that just if you want points to be developer?

Thank you for your perspectives and collective wisdom.


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## lotus921v (Dec 21, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Same here. Also a lot of the VIP savings you get with Wyndham, you can get similar saving percentages with Marriott exchanges. I was able to exchange my studio for a 2 bedroom last summer at Lakeshore Reserve for $900 for the week when the MF are $2400. I'm currently returning 3 of my deeds to Wyndham and picking up more Marriott once the market tanks even more.



What are you using as your metric to determine a good time to buy?


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 21, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> What are you using as your metric to determine a good time to buy?


When I can get Grand Chateau for $1500 ish. I'm probably going to try for a baby in the next year or two so I'm in no rush to need more weeks.


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## Jethro37 (Dec 22, 2022)

Is there any benefit to a salesman going through a presentation but not making the sale?  (ie meeting quotas, positive review, etc..?)

Also how extensive are the notes you keep on each owner?  Does it depend on the person keying them in?  Is that a thing?


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## troy12n (Dec 22, 2022)

@Jethro37



> Question around the piggyback and PIC discussion.
> 
> My parents have had a 3 bedroom timeshare in Kissimmee FL for years.  we aren’t good at using the interval international trades on it so utilization is poor.
> 
> ...


You can't PIC with a timeshare that exchanges in II, so in your example, it's a moot point... you have to PIC a timeshare that exchanges in RCI, and RCI weeks only. If it's another timeshare exchange (II, etc) or is a timeshare enrolled in RCI Points (not weeks), you cannot PIC it...


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## RowdyRiner (Dec 23, 2022)

Jethro37 said:


> Is there any benefit to a salesman going through a presentation but not making the sale?  (ie meeting quotas, positive review, etc..?)
> 
> Also how extensive are the notes you keep on each owner?  Does it depend on the person keying them in?  Is that a thing?


Same as any other sales job. Sure, you might learn from your mistakes but you didn't make any money. Only notes are about account activity owner has done or called in about. You can't keep personal notes regarding Sales interactions.


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## WManning (Dec 23, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> And most of the time, it doesn't actually fix anything, other than lining Wyndham's sales and marketing pockets for the most part.  The vast majority of the costs associated with buying a developer timeshare are to fund the sales and marketing engine itself and to fund future property development - the latter of which has slowly been trailing off over time with preference toward acquiring existing timeshare properties on the cheap and then attempting to refurbish them after the fact.


Another purchase to fix the problem only compounds the pain.


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## DaKats (Friday at 1:28 AM)

I've read the entire 9 pages. There is a ton of collective great information here. Lots of acronyms here and I am a newbie to the site, but I have been to a few presentations.
Here's the scenario:

I have legit access (transferring deeds) to convert deeded weeks from Shell to points at Wyndham. If I do the conversion, I will be at the Founder's level. The weeks were bought as resale, I think, but during the last presentations they shared that everything would convert and I would be at the Founders level. Several sales people had 'jaw dropping' responses to the points I would have. I assumed that was a sales tactic, but I do believe them when they said I would be at founders level.

*Question/Confirmation 1: *What is the cheapest way I can buy the points I need to convert these weeks to gain these VIP benefits? Is the only way via retail at one of the presentations? It seems there are other ways which might be cheaper but result in all of the same bonus things. I think I read about HitchHiker71 saying she'd user her "insert the program here" to try to get a spot at the new Grandy CO resort. And that "insert the program here" was only available if purchased at Wyndham directly. (And I would love to go to that Granby resort, too!) I didn't understand the Piggy back thing, but is it worth it to travel to the one place that is doing that? 

*Question 2:* Once I have all these points, can I reserve specific weeks, then 'sell' them myself on a site like TUG2? Is that what the guest check in is? I know I have to report the revenue - no problem there.

I am learning a ton here. Thanks everyone! 
Thanks in advance.
Please discuss.


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## chapjim (Friday at 4:39 PM)

DaKats said:


> I've read the entire 9 pages. There is a ton of collective great information here. Lots of acronyms here and I am a newbie to the site, but I have been to a few presentations.
> Here's the scenario:
> 
> I have legit access (transferring deeds) to convert deeded weeks from Shell to points at Wyndham. If I do the conversion, I will be at the Founder's level. The weeks were bought as resale, I think, but during the last presentations they shared that everything would convert and I would be at the Founders level. Several sales people had 'jaw dropping' responses to the points I would have. I assumed that was a sales tactic, but I do believe them when they said I would be at founders level.
> ...



By "sell," I presume you mean "rent."  Yes, technically you can do that but you run the very great risk of getting on Wyndham's list of owners who are engaged in "commercial use."  Several of us here have been fingered by Wyndam for "commercial use."  I reduced my ownership by about 50% as a result and may dispose of additional contracts later in 2023.

I don't think anyone here would recommend acquiring a bunch of Wyndham points with the idea of booking and renting reservations.  In that respect, we may have a different view than the typical Wyndham salesperson.  I don't know what a "jaw dropping" number of points is and salespersons are pretty good at feigning a reaction.  Anything to make a sale!

However, acquiring sufficient developer points to put you into the VIP Platinum or VIP Founders level can make family vacations much cheaper than otherwise.  But if you go much above those levels, you may find it difficult to use all your points, depending on your particular situation.


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## bnoble (Friday at 5:23 PM)

DaKats said:


> have legit access (transferring deeds) to convert deeded weeks from Shell to points at Wyndham. If I do the conversion, I will be at the Founder's level. The weeks were bought as resale, I think, but during the last presentations they shared that everything would convert and I would be at the Founders level.


There are a couple of options for what this might be.

1: This is a straight conversion from Shell to Wyndham. This is probably at a relatively reasonable cost. If so, it would be highly unusual for the Wyndham points to be VIP-eligible, because you are not the original owner of the Shell deeds. There have been specific situations in the past where resale conversions ended up being coded as developer points. If that happens, (a) consider yourself lucky, and (b) don't be surprised if the developer coding is later revoked.

2: This is an equity trade; you aren't converting your Shell ownership to Wyndham directly. Instead, you are trading in your Shell ownership and buying Wyndham points from the developer. This will likely be much more expensive than Option 1, but the points will definitely be eligible for status. (It's also probably not a great deal; the price of the points you are buying will be inflated to cover the "trade in" value, similar to how some car dealerships handle trade-ins.)

The real question is how much are you spending for how many VIP-qualified points? Depending on the answer that could range from "an okay deal" to "run, do not walk, in the other direction." It's also worth asking how important those VIP Founders benefits really are going to be for you. I tend to travel to high-demand locations at prime times. Those reservations have to be made well in advance, so the VIP discount really wouldn't help me very much. Likewise, the upgrades might be nice, but not really a deal maker or breaker--if I need a 2BR for my travel party to be comfortable, that's what I am going to book. I'm not going to book a 1BR and hope an upgrade comes through.

As for Question 2: As @chapjim suggests, now is not the time to start a cottage business renting Wyndham reservations. I'd encourage you to acquire only enough points that you think you might reasonably use yourself.


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## pedro47 (Friday at 6:39 PM)

Is the former Wyndham sales person still reading his thread and answering Tuggers question?


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## billymach4 (Saturday at 12:31 AM)

He may be reading. He was seen yesterday according to his profile. Answers....  Time will tell.


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## DaKats (Saturday at 1:05 PM)

bnoble said:


> There are a couple of options for what this might be.
> 
> 1: This is a straight conversion from Shell to Wyndham. This is probably at a relatively reasonable cost. If so, it would be highly unusual for the Wyndham points to be VIP-eligible, because you are not the original owner of the Shell deeds. There have been specific situations in the past where resale conversions ended up being coded as developer points. If that happens, (a) consider yourself lucky, and (b) don't be surprised if the developer coding is later revoked.
> 
> ...


Thank you bnoble & chapjim for your replies.

I agree that I need more research on just exactly what my conversion will get me, so I'll put together a personal list of questions and may bounce them off you two personally, if I may PM you. (However, it doesn't seem that my tug2 login is linked yet and I think I need that to message.
A few notes.
*I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings. 
*Mainly, I intend to use most of my points on myself, so only a bit will be used to allow guest check ins. 
*The purchase amount will be solely to be eligible for the Founders club benefits. Correct on the discount inside of two months. I am not retired, but I can work remotely from anywhere in the world, so I will have to become adept at all the crazy ways I might be able to accomplish this. 

Thank you so much for the information above from you two. I will have to really consider and understand each thing you mentioned as well as continue researching what my options are.
One more option is to keep my weeks as 2b2b condo weeks in Hawaii during prime season. Use them or rent them if I can't make it. But I fear that Wyndham will eventually start to enforce the exact weeks that I bought and that would be bad. Somehow they may find a way, but I think that the contract says 'float' in it. I must reread all.
Thank you!


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## bnoble (Saturday at 1:28 PM)

DaKats said:


> I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings.


Your opinion of what is "not a cottage business" may not be the same as Wyndham's opinion. Guess whose opinion counts?


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## Timeshare Von (Saturday at 2:33 PM)

DaKats said:


> <<SNIPPED>>
> 
> *Question 2:* Once I have all these points, can I reserve specific weeks, then 'sell' them myself on a site like TUG2? Is that what the guest check in is? I know I have to report the revenue - no problem there.


My opinion, based on over 40 years of ownership in the timeshare world is this . . . whatever the rules are today . . . you can sure bet they will not be the same in the future.  And whatever changes are made, will be to the general detriment to owners who are trying to find angles to wheel and deal with their timeshare assets.  #BeenThereDoneThat

If you are buying or making financial decisions in hopes of making money or even offsetting your out-of-pocket costs to own, be very careful.  It could backfire, especially if you are operating in one of the "systems" (especially) like Wyndham.  If you are prepared to deal with such changes that could stop you from doing whatever it is you're considering, then I'd say go for it.  But at the end of the day, you could find yourself with a lot of money invested and no way to get the ROI to cover what you've done/spent.

P.S.  Did you know that back in the 80's, if you made a spacebank deposit into RCI and your deposited week did not get picked up by an exchange 30 days prior to the check-in date, you would get your deposited week back to use yourself?  That was a really nice benefit . . . especially if you lived close to your timeshare.  Living in NoVA and owning in the Poconos, I was able to take advantage of this program feature once, which was like getting a bonus because I had the week to exchange (we went to Florida) and I got my week back for a nice fall trip to the mountains later that same year.


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## Jan M. (Saturday at 5:28 PM)

DaKats said:


> *I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings.
> *Mainly, I intend to use most of my points on myself, so only a bit will be used to allow guest check ins.
> *The purchase amount will be solely to be eligible for the Founders club benefits. Correct on the discount inside of two months. I am not retired, but I can work remotely from anywhere in the world, so I will have to become adept at all the crazy ways I might be able to accomplish this.



Your situation is ideal for timeshares. DH also had a great deal of flexibility. We had more nights in the timeshares than most people who are retired do. Since he retired in early 2018 each year our number of nights in the timeshares keeps growing. In 2022 it was 233 nights!

The changes of past two years have put an end to the glory days of renting. It's safe to say that those days aren't coming back. Do not count on renting to cover any of your maintenance fees. * If* you're able to rent consider it a fortuitous windfall. If you list your stays on any of the public rental sites,  use any Wyndham stock pictures, use more than a certain percentage of your points for reservations with guest names on them (we don't know the actual %) or use too many guest confirmations you'll risk getting the certified letter from Wyndham. It says you have been identified as engaging in commercial renting and there will be consequences if you continue. Some owners have or are currently experiencing the consequences. You don't want that!


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## cbyrne1174 (Saturday at 11:18 PM)

Jan M. said:


> Your situation is ideal for timeshares. DH also had a great deal of flexibility. We had more nights in the timeshares than most people who are retired do. Since he retired in early 2018 each year our number of nights in the timeshares keeps growing. In 2022 it was 233 nights!
> 
> The changes of past two years have put an end to the glory days of renting. It's safe to say that those days aren't coming back. Do not count on renting to cover any of your maintenance fees. * If* you're able to rent consider it a fortuitous windfall. If you list your stays on any of the public rental sites,  use any Wyndham stock pictures, use more than a certain percentage of your points for reservations with guest names on them (we don't know the actual %) or use too many guest confirmations you'll risk getting the certified letter from Wyndham. It says you have been identified as engaging in commercial renting and there will be consequences if you continue. Some owners have or are currently experiencing the consequences. You don't want that!


I agree with Jan. The only safe renting is with people you actually know. For example, I live near Bonnet Creek and if I have extra points, I would probably just find a friend/coworker to slip me the cash to cover the MF once I've checked in for them at BC. No guest cert used.


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## DaKats (Monday at 9:01 AM)

Such great information, everyone. Thank you all for your responses.
A few items in summary of feedback are:
-- Seriously consider the overall cost and determine if I want the burden if I never 'rent' anything.
-- Try to determine exactly what my points will 'get' me once they are fully in my possession after gaining full ownership of my weeks (costs not withstanding) and then buying developer points so I can partake in the level of benefits buying from the developer would afford me. In other words, be sure the level I _think_ I will get will be the actual level I will get.
-- Also try to discern if I convert to points that those points are eligible to the 'give it back to us' and walk away from your MF world. (Understanding nothing is ever free and that this would likely change to be less favorable, since all things do.)
-- Don't think I can work the system to cover or even slightly offset my MFs. Assume I cannot. 
-- Not that it was mentioned in this area, but Wyndham has a "We'll take the week off your hands and rent it for you for a fee and you will collect 50% of what we subsequently collect." Program. So a legit way to try to rent the week(s). However, as Timeshare Von mentioned, now, you don't get that back if they don't rent it as was the case in the 80's!
-- Sharing your time shares with friends without expectation of compensation is the best. And maybe they will gift you with something that is nicely worthy of the money you had invested in that time.  

Good news is I have a bit of time before I have to really decide what to do. Mainly, I have to decide if I want to take ownership of some deeded time share weeks - accepting them for the value they hold exactly right now and what exit options I have (likely none!). 

Thanks again - I may start another thread since I stole this one. Please follow me if you'd like to help me further or if you would allow a Private Message from me, please PM me or let me know here. (I'm supposed to have that ability, but my accounts for BBG and tug2 haven't synched, if i understand my limitation correctly.)


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## DaKats (Monday at 9:26 AM)

@RowdyRiner 
Sorry for the heist.

Question for bringing back on track RowdyRiner's intent. RowdyRiner if you are still hanging out on this thread or others:
If I own Shell vacay deeded weeks (like week 52, 2, 7, 9, etc.- Q1-ish, high season), which were likely bought from an individual, and I buy whatever minimum points I can from Wyndham directly (or Developer?) to gain the access to privileges, (Question 1 what do you think the chances are of 'swapping' those weeks to points via Wyndham & ending up with the amount of points the salesperson says I'll end up with?

I've gone through the presentation and they say I'll end up with X amount of points. But I didn't see that in the written contract (which I rescinded).  I saw no reference to maintenance fees nor to the points I would have. Apparently the only thing that was really shared was my contract for the purchase of points, as far as I can tell.

Questions:
2- Should there be a contract for the swap of weeks to get points - exactly how many and if they are eligible for 'status'?
3- Should there be a contract for the maintenance fees I should now expect for the future? (Even though I'm sure there is a clause for these fees to be adjusted.)
4- Can I request immediate hard copies of everything I sign?
5- How do I keep the team from immediately opening a Credit Card Account?
6 - If I keep the weeks, just as they are, with the two year reservation window at my own resort, no 'tradeseys' to other resorts available at all, do you think Wyndham will do anything to damage what I have with Shell eventually?

We've established in this thread that Sales practices aren't always on the up and up. 
7. How do I best manage the process so I am not taken advantage of?
Thank you so much.

To my new friends & all potential new friends - I understand that I shouldn't expect much, please let me know if there are any positives to what & how I might do things with what I have.


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## Mr. Phil (Monday at 10:44 AM)

If in a position to purchase additional Select Points which location would be best to purchase, taking into consideration maintenance fees.


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