# Crucial change to HGVC - We must take action, stand together and be heard



## USDave

Hi,

As you may be aware. HGVC have announced a new variable price hike to the Open Season rates by 100% from 2014 to 2015 even after a considerable increase in 2014. The rates are allocated with a massive price bracket without any explanation or justication to allow anyone to understand in advance what the rate may be, after all I thought that is what HGVC had silver, gold and platinum for! So there was clarity for us all. This is a major change to the system. Please take a minute to read, understand and take action.

I have added another post with a sample letter on this thread if you need a time saver. 

Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change to double the rates. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks. 

I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it! 

I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton. 

I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!

So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system. 

CALL TO ACTION Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.


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## Tamaradarann

*Keep up the e-mail*



USDave said:


> Hi,
> 
> Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change to double the rates. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks.
> 
> I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it!
> 
> I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton.
> 
> I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!
> 
> So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system.
> 
> CALL TO ACTION Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.



I totally agree with this approach.  I have posted a number of the e-mails that I have sent.  I got the name of Barbara Rinks, BRinks@hgvc.com the Director of HGVC services.  She seems to receptive to the notes that I have sent and passing the notes to upper management, the Vice President of Member Services to whom she reports.  I think that we need to get to the bottom of the derivation of the Open Season availability particularly in Honolulu which is a very highly sought after location and the one that I believe they will be raising the Open Season rates the most.  The post that HGVC sent out made it sound like the availability was from members depositing points for Partner Perks.  That is certainly different than what I was under the assumption the derivation of the Open Season availability, Club Reservation availability that wasn't reserved by owner/members using their points.


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## mtm65

You may have more participation if an outline or form letter is provided.  Many people will not take the time to compose a letter but will copy and paste a letter to HGVC.  Two cents to help the cause


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## TheCryptkeeper

Thanks, sent HGVC a quick note telling them how disappointed I was and how I could no longer recomend them to friends interested in purchasing timeshares.


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## chriskre

Post your dislike on their Facebook page too.
I did and they did respond kindly but it doesn't change the fact that they are planning to go forward with the change in 3 months instead of immediately.

In all honesty I own many different timeshares so if they remove this perk I'll just move onto one of my other ownerships or use the exchange companies.
I go to Orlando every 2 to 3 months and was enjoying using the OS benefits but if they don't want to give me a deal anymore there are other systems that will.
Sorry but HGVC isn't the only game in town.  Maybe they don't care if I'm gone but they should as I was one of their biggest fans because of the OS benefits.


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## Tamaradarann

*Open Season Rates will go up but…..*



chriskre said:


> Post your dislike on their Facebook page too.
> I did and they did respond kindly but it doesn't change the fact that they are planning to go forward with the change in 3 months instead of immediately.
> 
> In all honesty I own many different timeshares so if they remove this perk I'll just move onto one of my other ownerships or use the exchange companies.
> I go to Orlando every 2 to 3 months and was enjoying using the OS benefits but if they don't want to give me a deal anymore there are other systems that will.
> Sorry but HGVC isn't the only game in town.  Maybe they don't care if I'm gone but they should as I was one of their biggest fans because of the OS benefits.



I totally agree that Open Season Rates will go up.  However, I have been emphasizing the difference in the derivation of points and what Open Season Rates should be.  I have gotten feedback that HGVC is rethinking the policy, however, I don't know what they will come up with.  As owner/members I believe that unreserved Club Reservation Inventory is owner/members inventory that owner members just decided to not reserve using their points. That inventory should be offered to us at at the current/old lower Open Season rates or greatly reduced percentages off rack rate.  While inventory that HGVC has obtained thru other methods is really inventory that Hilton owns or has compensated owner/members for to get control over just like it owns unsold weeks.  They are under no obligation to offer that to us at an extreme discount  They could just put it on Hilton Honors at regular rates.  If they offer that to owner/members at a discount it is an added benefit.

I believe that in any correspondence you should emphasize the difference in the derivation of points.  That may have an impact on HGVC in their final policy.  I believe if HGvC takes the approach that I have mention above they have a win win with owner/members.


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## USDave

*Draft letter to send to HGVC about Open season changes*

Great idea mtm65

Let's get organised! 

I will add an outline below for those that wish to copy and paste to Hilton. Input@hgvc.com and please add to Twitter and Facebook 

FAO Kim Robert Krieger Senior VP HGVC

Dear Kim, 

We value our membership to a club that has fabulous resorts for our families to enjoy and we bought this membership because we valued the facilities, resources and options that HGVC offered. 

We expect that from time to time there will be price increases however we expect them to be conducted in a fair, open and transparent manner. On this occasion Hilton Grand Vacation Club has failed on all three counts. 

We feel that you have broken our trust but introducing a new charging system to the Open Season that is neither fair, open or transparent. Even your own reservations agents were not able to explain how the new charges would be applied and on what basis but did confirm that the charge could increase by 100%. When would a 100% increase year on year ever be fair or a reasonable thing to do?

We each spend our hard earned dollars with Hilton and want to continue to do so but don't believe this is the right way to treat us as customers and club members.

We implore you reconsider this change and listen to the voices of your members, you only have to look at TUG BBS to see the outcry this has caused. 

The only assessment that scream's out is that HGVC got it wrong on this occasion, we ask you to do the decent thing and reverse this change. We do understand that commercially changes are sometimes necessary however it must pass the test of being fair, open and transparent. 

We look forward to your response. 

Regards


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## DeniseM

Suggestion:  At the top of the first post in this thread, I would add a concise summary of the issue in one or two sentences, for those who don't know about this.


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## linsj

I applaud USDave for writing a sample letter, but individually worded letters carry more weight than multiple copies of the same one (that needs editing). It provides an outline of issues to address though.


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## mtm65

Thanks for the sample letter USDave.  I modified your letter and sent a copy off to HGVC.  Hopefully others will do the same!


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## herkimer

Took the advice here and wrote an email yesterday.  I heard back within the hour and was told that HGVC is going to honor the Open Season 2014 rates through the first quarter of 2015 and is looking at what the increase will be after that.  Obviously, they have gotten some negative feedback on this issue.  Let's hope they are not just delaying for three months, but will really rethink these increases.

When the hHonors program was devalued a year ago, we lost the benefit of a reasonable conversion for hotel stays.  Now we face Open Season rates potentially not worth using.  Those were two parts of the program I used regularly.


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## Cyberc

what I dont understand is, the cash flow that the open season generates is this going to each resort booked? if it does then it could keep the annual MF down.

If it doesn't why doesn't it go to the resorts they have all the extra expenses in regards to room cleaning and so on.  

If HGVC and the resorts splits the income, it also makes sense(at least in my book) this would still contribute with income to bring down the annual MF. 

sorry my intention was not to hijack the thread. 

Regards.


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## Jason245

Cyberc said:


> what I dont understand is, the cash flow that the open season generates is this going to each resort booked? if it does then it could keep the annual MF down.
> 
> If it doesn't why doesn't it go to the resorts they have all the extra expenses in regards to room cleaning and so on.
> 
> If HGVC and the resorts splits the income, it also makes sense(at least in my book) this would still contribute with income to bring down the annual MF.
> 
> sorry my intention was not to hijack the thread.
> 
> Regards.



If you read the other thread on this you will see that open season does not go to the resort. It goes to HGVC, to cover the costs of the MF they pay (for units they own in the resorts), the cash they pay to other parties for club perks, the cash they pay to Hilton hotels for HH points, with the rest going to profit.


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## jestme

Jason245 said:


> If you read the other thread on this you will see that open season does not go to the resort. It goes to HGVC, to cover the costs of the MF they pay (for units they own in the resorts), the cash they pay to other parties for club perks, the cash they pay to Hilton hotels for HH points, with the rest going to profit.



Curiosity. In your mind, who do you think should be paying the MF's for HGVC's owned inventory? Who should be paying the MF's for rooms occupied by all the "bonus points" their sales departments give away to retail buyers?  Who should be paying the M/F's for inventory they deposit into RCI in bulk deposits?


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## Jason245

jestme said:


> Curiosity. In your mind, who do you think should be paying the MF's for HGVC's owned inventory? Who should be paying the MF's for rooms ccupied by all the "bonus points"  their sales departments give away to retail buyers?  Who should be paying the M/F's for inventory they deposit into RCI in bulk deposits?



HGVC is paying MF for all inventory they own (see hoa financials) 
My understanding of RCI deposits is that inflows = outflow and are a result of hgvc owners trading into RCI and not hgvc putting their own points into RCI.  As such,  the ownerswho trade into RCI pay the mf. 

Bonus points are hgvc owned inventory being rented out.


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## clotheshorse

mtm65 said:


> Thanks for the sample letter USDave.  I modified your letter and sent a copy off to HGVC.  Hopefully others will do the same!



Ditto, thank you.  I sent a letter over a week ago and received a form response from Barbara.  I will send another one to Kim.  

Thanks again.


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## piyooshj

By increasing the OS rates by upto 100% YoY what they have essentially done is degraded the overall value of Hilton timeshare ownership.

We are paying high upfront cost to get in (esp ones who bought retail) and then high MFs year over year. On top of it doing everything has a add on cost (except booking in your home resort).....I am not sure if it it worth it anymore....I feel I am just bleeding money year over year.....is that correct?


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## Talent312

piyooshj said:


> ...We are paying high upfront cost to get in (esp ones who bought retail) and then high MFs year over year. On top of it doing everything has a add on cost (except booking in your home resort).....I am not sure if it it worth it anymore....I feel I am just bleeding money year over year.....



Of course your feelings are valid, for you. However, Hilton's high-price and MF's are nothing new. They reflect the quality of the resorts. We whine about the the nickle+dime fees, but they tried an all-inclusive fee and found it encouraged excessive use (like an all-inclusive resort). Fee for service used is a rational way to avoid a "free-for-all."

IMHO, unless OS is the only reason you signed up, jumping ship is not a rational response. Sure, the change in OS rates diminishes the value of the program. OTOH, "adjustments" are going to occur from time to time. The reality is that Kim Krieger (VP) and his colleagues in the corner offices at Metro-West are tone-deaf, money-grubbing scoundrels. Perhaps if we chant "I can't breathe" loud enuff, it will have some effect at the margins.

In the meantime, use of my week and points elsewhere is sufficient to keep me on board.
.
.


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## Jason245

piyooshj said:


> By increasing the OS rates by upto 100% YoY what they have essentially done is degraded the overall value of Hilton timeshare ownership.
> 
> We are paying high upfront cost to get in (esp ones who bought retail) and then high MFs year over year. On top of it doing everything has a add on cost (except booking in your home resort).....I am not sure if it it worth it anymore....I feel I am just bleeding money year over year.....is that correct?




Timeshares have always been and should always be considered Sunk costs (initial cost to buy in, whether it be retail or Resale). 

The value you get and should expect is the experience you have purchased. Compared to competitors, HGVC is still among the best offerings (especially given the treatment of Resale owners).  The only other one I know of that offers a similar level of flexibility is DVC (although my research is a little limited). 

This is why HGVC and DVC retain a resale value as high as they do. 

MFs are a function of the needs of the HOA. If you are concerned about them, it is your right to receive a copy of the annual audited financial statements as well as copies of meeting minutes. If you believe that the HOA is being fiscally irresponsible with your money (that is what the MF are), then it is your right and duty to contact the board and ask for clarification.  

Higher MF are not a bad thing assuming that the reservers are being adequately funded. Some HOA's have lower MF and then hit you with Constant Special assessments. One of the reasons that the MFs are so high is that HGVC resorts offer some of the highest class amenities, are well maintained, have high levels of service, and maintain the highest level of resort quality (and as a result are all rated at the top of the RCI quality metrics).  

The booking costs suck, but they are lower then the costs of using other exchange systems (and remember, that is what the HGVC is, an exchange system managed and governed by HGVC). 

That being said, I think this question is better posed on the other thread on this. A lot of the back and forth on this has gone through many different cycles, with many HGVC owners expressing opinions and frustration.


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## Tamaradarann

Jason245 said:


> If you read the other thread on this you will see that open season does not go to the resort. It goes to HGVC, to cover the costs of the MF they pay (for units they own in the resorts), the cash they pay to other parties for club perks, the cash they pay to Hilton hotels for HH points, with the rest going to profit.



Good Answer Jason

That is why I feel we need to insist that HGVC not raise the Open Season Rates on Owner/Member Inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Period.  It is NOT Inventory that was derived from the other sources that you describe here.  That inventory should remain available during Opens Season at the old/current lower rates.


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## USDave

*HGVC got caught at it!*

Great points. 

Can I ask all that do send an email, post to HGVC Facebook and Twitter that if you are given a response like Herkimer (HGVC are so kind to move the doubling in cost back by three months) that we challenge this 

To be told that they now won't make the change until April for me doesn't change how wrong and unjust this decision is. They are simply trying to appease us and give the suggestion they have made a concession. If the double the bill now or in April, they STILL double the bill.

What is does demonstrate is they tried to sneak in a change and Tamaradarann noticed it and got us all to talk about it. 

So HGVC got caught at it! And they would have made no change had it not been challenged. That shows us we have to push this we can't rely on them to read the boards and make the change. So far the 2 threads have had over 8200 views and 170 comments, that is enormous.

When President Clinton got caught at it! He had 3 choices 
A) Deny all
B) Admit part of it but try to minimise the damage
C) Own up to everything, make a full and complete apology and try fixing the damage caused 

We all know that he settled on option B and then probably regretted it! 
This is what HGVC are trying to do and they will get away with it if we let them. 

Stay focused. 

I do actually love so much about HGVC and often refer people to purchase the resorts are top quality. The timeshare business is very lucrative business so HGVC crying poverty as a need to double prices doesn't wash.


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## nlehvac

*I just had a FAScinating phone call!*

I just had a phone call from someone at HGVC asking how our membership was going for us and discuss it in general (as in trying to get us to upgrade or go every year rather than EOY, etc). Since we've only been there 2 years, I said so far it's been fine and we haven't tried to do anything fancy. 

   But it just so happens I AM [WAS?] starting to think about using OS, which is actually true, since we're thinking of purchasing a retirement home elsewhere and figured this would be a handy way to stay nice places as we investigate places like Hawaii and Florida islands. Naturally, I brought up the observation about a huge increase in rates and this "range" thing. He knew not of what I spoke (he said). He even called his supervisor who said they hadn't gotten any notices about any changes in the system. He was sure it was just they were covering their bases; that a reservation during Christmas would be different than even other platinum times. I think I said 3 times people realize an event week is different. He said there's no way they would increase rates 100% without notification. I told him it's in the new tables. He did say something (probably not something they meant him to) about Hawaii and NY would be different than the other resorts [NY I knew, but Hawaii is different?]. Unfortunately, since I HAVEN'T done a detailed study yet (I only scanned OS in the past since we've always had to figure way ahead), so I couldn't have all the right replies. Heck  I hadn't finished THIS thread yet, much less the other one with a zillion replies, although I had started to when it first started! He suggested I call customer service and I'd see it wasn't as much a hike as it seemed and the rate would probably fall in the middle. I told him others HAVE and reported on the near 100% increases they were quoted, so if it's a misunderstanding, they have a HUGE PR problem on their hands. It also got me to wondering the way the agents didn't know the ranges existed, much less how they would work, and this rep and his supervisor (so he said) didn't know anything about any changes, maybe THAT's why it got delayed 3 months. They don't have their "stuff"  together yet; nothing to do with complaints at all. At the end, I suggest he just go back to the member guides and just compare how the OS rates were expressed in 2013 and 2014 and compare them to how they're expressed for 2015 for his own edification. 

  I know I didn't give a PERfect performance, but I JUST ran into this thread this AM so didn't have my usual time to prepare! I'm just glad he tried to get me on my cell while I was walking my doggie so I could put him off 10 min while I pulled this and the other thread back up and think about how I was going to approach it. And I could find SOME of the info on the fly (I'm not real good at scanning while listening/talking, I'm afraid). I would have put him off longer to really prepare, but I have other commitments!

   Anyway, thought you'd enjoy this report.


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## Talent312

nlehvac said:


> I just had a phone call from someone at HGVC asking how our membership was going for us and discuss it in general (as in trying to get us to upgrade or go every year rather than EOY, etc)....



These sales weasels always seem clueless about changes that adversely affect their talking-points. Either they are feigning ignorance or actually ignorant. Poor babies. In this case, I'm willing to believe that they were left out of the loop.
.


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## USDave

*Great to hear*

Great to hear Nlehvac, brilliant. 

This is another tool that we need to use. It doesn't surprise me that they claim they don't know but HGVC will certainly pay attention if this gets brought up on the sales calls again and again! 

If you're on Facebook - could I please ask you to post on the 
HGVC page also. 

Talent - do you not think they may deny knowledge even if they knew as it could harm sales.


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## Talent312

USDave said:


> Talent - do you not think they may deny knowledge even if they knew as it could harm sales.



I don't doubt that they have little "team meetings" where they discuss ways to deflect difficult or annoying issues. They've prolly been told that, if anyone tries to bring up something negative, they never heard of it.

"What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?" -- Gary Coleman.

OTOH, I would not be surprised if they are as efficient at communicating changes to the sales offices as they are to us.
.


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## Tamaradarann

*One of my Comments to HGVC*



USDave said:


> Great to hear Nlehvac, brilliant.
> 
> This is another tool that we need to use. It doesn't surprise me that they claim they don't know but HGVC will certainly pay attention if this gets brought up on the sales calls again and again!
> 
> If you're on Facebook - could I please ask you to post on the
> HGVC page also.
> 
> Talent - do you not think they may deny knowledge even if they knew as it could harm sales.



When I contacted HGVC in writing I pointed out the Low Cost Open Season Rates for prime timeshare accomodations in places like Hawaii were one of the reasons people bought HGVC timeshares.  I asked why do you want to hurt the HGVC timeshare sales by making the purchase less valuable?   I memtioned this real life situatiion.  I happened to be in HGVC South Beach when the open season rate increase, that has been postponed went into effect.  The day before I was speaking to someone about open season possibilities in Hawaii and they were very interested in buying.  After the rate change I bumped into him and told him that they just changed the good deal on Open Season in Hawaii. He lost interest.


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## TTom

Color me social media challenged, but I did not see anything on Facebook (Hilton Grand Vacations page) related to the OS increases and, for the life of me, I still can't fathom how to use Twitter.

I'm happy to voice my opinion on both but not sure how.

On Twitter, do I just tweet:
"@HiltonGrandVac I object to the recently announced increases in Open Season rates."

Seems to me that will show up in my tweets, but will it also show up on their feed? Will anyone see it other than their admins. I can't imagine it would show up under their profile.

Meanwhile, I will poke around Facebook to see if I can track down some relevant posts.

May just have to resort to email (I was going to do that anyway).

Ciao!

Tom


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## alwysonvac

*Posts on Facebook*

Here's where you can find the various posts on Facebook.



alwysonvac said:


> https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations
> 
> 
> *For those, who don't know, the very small "Posts to Page" section can be found in the left hand column after several other sections*.
> - Scroll down past the other sections in the left hand column (People, About, Photos, Videos, Liked by this Page, and Apps)
> - Then click on the ">" sign in the upper right hand corner of the "Post to Page" Section to expand the section and click to see all comments for each entry....


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## TTom

*Expressing my dissatisfaction*

Thanks for the info. Interesting, but not surprising, that the posts from others including people expressing dissatisfaction are buried in the bottom corner of the page, while those extolling the virtues of the system occupy "center stage." Hopefully, someone in the corporate structure actually reads everything which is posted.

Any thoughts or suggestions on dealing with Twitter?

I still have emails to send, but I did have a pleasant conversation with the HGVC rep I spoke with this morning. She indicated that they are also collecting feedback and forwarding it to "the powers that be" as a part of their phone protocol. She handled it extremely well, so I guess they are hearing lots.

The more channels, the merrier. Got to keep the pressure on.

Ciao!

Tom


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## nlehvac

USDave said:


> Great to hear Nlehvac, brilliant.
> 
> If you're on Facebook - could I please ask you to post on the
> HGVC page also.
> 
> Talent - do you not think they may deny knowledge even if they knew as it could harm sales.



  Thanks for calling my post "brilliant"  I don't hear that too often these days:whoopie:

   I also am social network ignorant ... or more to the point actually, I purposely avoid all those things ... besides the usual invites, we also get the "linkedin" and "researchgate" and some other I can't remember with people I never heard of asking me to link to them. Just don't trust 'em. However, If you would like to post my report over there, I give you permission to do so. 

   It's interesting TTom's rep indicated they are collecting feedback and forwarding it to TPTB, when my rep claimed he and his supervisor had no knowledge of what I was talking about  !! As you also mentioned, I do not honestly know if my rep even contacted his supervisor ... it was awfully quick, which is unusual in my experience with phone banks.


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## MattnTricia

Letter Revised and Sent. 

One thing I did was added an emphasis on my Platinum Elite Status and that Open Season was a big part of the reason we owned multiple weeks.


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## nlehvac

Not really working at work today, I looked at the posts on Facebook (just because I don't want to join, doesn't mean I don't want to peek!). I found VERY few posts on this subject - 3 or 4 - with the same canned reply.

Reading further back I did notice a couple of people wanting to get rid of their HGVC getting replies that they should contact resales@hgvc.com (one was in a comment back Dec 16th). If they haven't been PM'ed by someone here to find TUG, someone on Facebook might want to let them know!! Apparently the person was quoted 2K for a 13K purchase 6 months ago and never used.

Now I have to do SOMEthing related to my job!


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## USDave

*We are starting to get some momentum and .....I love it!*

Hi Guys,

It is great to hear that you share the same frustrations but what starts as 1 or 2 people can soon turn to 20 or 30 then 50, then 100 and eventually 500. 

This thread has been viewed nearly 1500 in 3 days! If even only 1 in 3 let Hilton know this isn't right and not something we can accept. We will turn this momentum into a movement. 

Go and YouTube -the lone nut (it's a funny dancing video but ilustrates the point amazingly)

I do appreciate that not everyone is Twitter and Facebook friendly I'm guilty of that too but anyone out there that is, please post. 

At the moment as Nlehvac points out there is only 3/4 posts and they make sure they don't sit at the top of the feed BUT we can change that. If we get momentum with Facebook and Twitter I think it will start to make a real difference. We can affect this. 

So don't sit in the stands or the side of the pitch this can't be a spectator sport if we really want to change this.....it needs participation. 

Any volunteers to push a Twitter campaign or Facebook campaign??????

I'm sorry I don't want to seem all preacher like but that is how it is. If we all want to moan and bitch about it, fine, but if we ACTUALLY want to change it, join in and let HGVC know this is unacceptable. 

I was reading one of Tamaradarann's post on the other thread and they are right be respectful, don't go over the top but this is the BIGGEST most FUNDAMENTAL change that HGVC have ever made. 

Tom, great to hear you to keeping the momentum. Why not send a flurry of tweets, that is a breakdown of your letter telling them why it is unacceptable and that it devalues a huge benefit of what we all bought, I know which will get a quicker response! 

Mattnday - thank you - fabulous - Great point also about platinum and elite. 

alwysonvac - as helpful as ever! 

Talent312 - I can visualise Gary Coleman right now!

If people feel comfortable I would ask you to post your letters to the thread and the responses you get. HGVC won't like that we are getting organised it is much easier to deal with a few "whiners" rather than a group of people. The other possibility is that they will delay responding to try to take the sting out of the situation hoping most of us get bored, so please chase your letters if you get no communication or let us start a clock on each letter, Facebook post or tweet (how long we have been waiting for a response).

It is often said that timeshare sales guys will say anything to get you into the club but do HGVC really care now we are in the club? It is a test of their moral business compass as to how they deal with crisis of member opinion. 

Keep it up


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## TTom

*My Hilton Facebook Exchange*

Posted @ 10:28am - 
I would like to add my voice to those members/owners who have expressed concern or dissatisfaction with the announced MAJOR increase in open season rental rates. The availability of low-cost, open season reservations has always been a strong selling point for HGVC resorts. While we have only availed ourselves of the option infrequently, it has been a valuable perk when we have taken advantage. We understand that costs continue to rise while the "value" of our investments continue to decline, but increases such as these, with no explanation or justification (other than a need to make more money). I would seriously urge that this ill-advised slight to your owners/members be reconsidered.
Tom Tomasovic

Response @ 10:34
Hilton Grand Vacations Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the 
year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.

· We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.
·
For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the 
former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your 
refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).

We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.

My Response @ ~10:40
I appreciate your concern and feedback, as it indicates that you are listening. However, simply delaying the unreasonable(?) increase does little to address the underlying problem, the continued devaluation of HGVC membership.


----------



## TTom

*HGVC Twitter...*

Just tweeted the following:
@HiltonGrandVac Quite unhappy with the planned MAJOR increase in Open Season rental rates!!

I have no idea where this goes or who can see it.

If any of you are interested, I am TTomas0v (with a zero!). I don't tweet at all, so there is not much to look at. I would welcome anyone who wants to engage in some "technical support" to move this along.

Otherwise, it's on to the email...

Ciao!

Tom


----------



## TTom

*HGVC Email message...*

Just sent the following to Barb Rinks with a CC to "input:"

Hi Barb,

I must say, I was more than a little shocked when I saw the recent announcement of a planned increase in the Open Season rental rates which runs in the range of 100%! There are so many issues, it is hard to know where to begin.

Open season is a perk which was frequently mentioned in sales presentations and, while we have not availed ourselves of it frequently, the times when we have were most welcome and appreciated. Eliminating a substantial portion of the value of this perk seems to be a slap in the face of your loyal, long-time owners/members.

The fact that this was basically sprung on people with no warning or notice is very disturbing, and the temporary rollback does little to mitigate a substantial gaffe by someone who makes the decisions.

At the heart of the issue is the continued devaluation of HGVC ownership. Maintenance fees, club dues, exchange fees, additional fees continue to go up, along with the point values required for RCI exchanges and Hilton Honors purchases. Yet the point values of our investment and the conversion rates to HH points remain the same. How is that fair? And everyone knows that the resale value for timeshares is generally low, even for a program as good as HGVC! 

We have enjoyed our ownership and were looking forward to the possibility of an increase as our lifestyle allows for more vacation/travel, but it seems that this will be tempered by continued price increases and hassles of ownership.

I do not know what (other than maximizing corporate profits) precipitated this move, but I would hope that any backlash from the owners (in terms of unrented inventory) more than compensates for this insensitive move.

It is my hope that messages such as mine are brought to the attention of the policy-makers, and that they will review the wisdom of their decisions and their impact on your ownership.

Thanks for your time.

Best regards,

Tom Tomasovic
Owner @ the Bay Club at Waikoloa and Club Regency, Marco Island

Guess we will see what this generates?

Ciao!

Tom


----------



## nlehvac

*Yup!*

That's the boilerplate answer they've given everyone on Facebook. Somehow, I saw earlier postings than I'd read before ... early Dec where they said that - or maybe it was posted on "the other" thread. 

   Actually, some answer I saw "on the other thread" sounded like my rep on the phone MIGHT have been reading off a script in answer to my complaint. How I'd probably find when I called to book OS that the charge would be in the middle of the range. It said something about Hawaii (and NYC) in the very peak like Xmas would be the very top; other Hawaii times/availability would be less than max; low times and/or places the lowest. 

   When you think about it, it would have made sense to have it structured that way from the beginning .... the way basketball tickets on the secondary NBA sales site where I live vary depending on where the seat is combined with whether it's a game that can determine the playoffs vs a who cares game.

   However .... they didn't structure it that way from the beginning. Their bad planning isn't our problem. The least they could do is eeeeeaaaaassssseee into it. VERY slowly, so new people would know what they're getting into and the old folks could start making "alternative" arrangements; like getting a timeshare with a company that doesn't do that --- of course until they see what happens in HGVC. You know ... one airline starts to charge for checked bags and then everyone else follows suit.

   I still think the delay in instituting it is more that they haven't figured out how to do it (availability changes daily), not because of complaints. Unless they're renting Amer. Airlines software that changes fares up and down every 10 minutes.


----------



## USDave

Brilliant Tom. 

When I read the standard Facebook response they sent I initially thought ok so they are starting to look at it. 

But when I thought about it. It says "we are committed to easing any inconvienence by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels during the first quarter of 2015"

No that is damn right insulting to all our intelligence!!!!!

1) This ain't an INCONVEINENCE it is a HEIST
2) They now are claiming they are doing good but INCREASING THE RATES by UPTO 100% but 3 months later.

ALL that was missing was a request for us all to say thank you for delaying the HEIST.

As I have said before whether the increase the rates by 100% now or in 3 months time it is still a 100%. 

I look at several dates and it is more expensive that the hotel rates for several of the Orlando resorts. Discount for club members seems to be evaporating.

I have loved so much about HGVC offer but they are getting this wrong in a big big way. 

I know some will say they now can't win I will view cynically whatever they now say and in truth that is probably correct because I am hearing soundbites but they need to put it right and stop trying to spin out of it, like politicians try! 

Keep the passion


----------



## USDave

Quite right nhelvac,

If they actually needed to increase the rates to generate they could phase it in over 5/6 years if they could explain if there was a genuine need other then profiteering. 

They could but a $1 on a pizza and a thousand other ways to generate income. It is in my view lazy business management to just go increase that by 100%. 

Your airline analogy is very apt but they only do it if they think they get away with it!


----------



## piyooshj

I just posted a quick message on facebook. Social media is better to raise this concern since they use social media for their marketing and too much negative messages will certainly get attention.


----------



## piyooshj

Let us all pile on. Just write 1 or 2 sentence showing your dissatisfaction. https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations The more public comments the better. Write on the top where it says Post -> Write something on this page.

Email to input@hgvc.com goes to management but not to public eyes esp the new potential suckers/customers. They don't want too much negativity on their FB page. They just deleted my comment/post which proves this. I posted again asking why my comment disappeared.


----------



## TTom

*HGVC Tweet*

Amusingly enough, I got a response to my tweet about an hour ago. They pointed me to their response to my Facebook post. Wonder if the email will do any better.

In any case, I have done my part to put some heat on them, and I will continue to follow up, should they respond.

I would encourage all you HGVC people out there to at least make some noise (unless you are fine paying twice as much as you did in three months).

Ciao!

Tom


----------



## TTom

*PS*

Guess I am learning more about using FB and Twitter. Can't be all bad. 

Tom


----------



## nlehvac

I'm not :annoyed: This AM, it let me read posts. Now, it wants me to sign in to read them. 

Buggers


----------



## piyooshj

Looks like they deleted my FB post twice.....


----------



## TTom

Email reply received earlier this evening:

Mr. Tomasovic:

Your feedback is very important to us.  Relating to the Open Season benefit, we have committed to easing any inconvenience the rate increases have caused  by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.  We will communicate with our membership base in the near future the status of the 2015 rate increases.  

We sincerely appreciate you as a member of Hilton Grand Vacations Club, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.

Sincerely,

Barbie Rinks
________________________________
Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director - Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835

Nothing revolutionary, but, at least, it seems they are listening/reading.

Tom


----------



## piyooshj

TTom said:


> Nothing revolutionary, but, at least, it seems they are listening/reading.
> 
> Tom



Awesome, I see the language has changed as well stating they will let us know status instead of stating they have deferred the start date.


----------



## Tamaradarann

USDave said:


> Brilliant Tom.
> 
> When I read the standard Facebook response they sent I initially thought ok so they are starting to look at it.
> 
> But when I thought about it. It says "we are committed to easing any inconvienence by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels during the first quarter of 2015"
> 
> No that is damn right insulting to all our intelligence!!!!!
> 
> 1) This ain't an INCONVEINENCE it is a HEIST
> 2) They now are claiming they are doing good but INCREASING THE RATES by UPTO 100% but 3 months later.
> 
> ALL that was missing was a request for us all to say thank you for delaying the HEIST.
> 
> As I have said before whether the increase the rates by 100% now or in 3 months time it is still a 100%.
> 
> Dave since you used the word Heist in your recent post I needed to focus on this aspect of the heist.
> HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period. Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory. I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period. Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates. That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates. It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.
> Tamaradarann is online now  Report Post  	 Edit/Delete Message


----------



## TTom

*Not sure this makes a difference, but...*

It would seem to me that Open Season inventory probably has a lot to do with the ability of HGVC owners to cancel reservations (either Club or Home) at the 30 day mark without incurring a points penalty. If we wait until 30 days out to cancel our fixed week @ Regency, it automatically becomes Open Season inventory, and we still have our points to use for another interval or exchange.

That having been said, @Tamaraderann indicates that the same inventory is available during Club Season (at the target resorts). That would indicate to me that the intervals are not fixed, and that owners have not reserved their time. Exchangers may be playing "roulette" with their points, hoping (or assuming) that OS will allow them to bag a choice week for a small investment of $s. The system kind of makes sense to me. Perhaps, the HGVC logic is to drive those people to make their commitments earlier, thus stabilizing the inventory.

The downside to trying to stabilize the inventory is simply that people who choose to wait until late in the game may not see any availability once it becomes less cost effective to wait.

I don't know what the ultimate solution is! My upset comes from a LARGE increase with little or no notice and no real explanation why. 

Maybe, HGVC should implement a sliding scale for OS reservations, e.g., at 30 days, you pay $200; at 14 days, you pay $100; @ 5 days, you pay $50. Again, counterintuitive, but more like the actual rental market. If you are not renting it, you drop the price. The people who wait take a chance on getting a good deal or missing out completely. Interesting?

Perhaps, if there was some indication (other than greed) as to why this change could make things better for a significant segment of owners, it would be easier to swallow. The lack of transparency relegates the decision to an indication of greed and lack of concern. That should really be the focus of our upset.

On reflecting, I think that HGVC's prompt answers to my messages (ALL of them) may indicate that they know they blew it and are trying to make amends of some sort. I guess I can hope!!

Tom


----------



## Jason245

Tamaradarann;1708148Dave since you used the word Heist in your recent post I needed to focus on this aspect of the heist.
 HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period. Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory. I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period. Therefore said:
			
		

> So, which weeks are inventory owned by HGVC?
> 
> They pay hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) of MF for all the units they own (the ones they keep trying to sell to people and the ones they use to generate the bonus points).


----------



## Jason245

TTom said:


> It would seem to me that Open Season inventory probably has a lot to do with the ability of HGVC owners to cancel reservations (either Club or Home) at the 30 day mark without incurring a points penalty. If we wait until 30 days out to cancel our fixed week @ Regency, it automatically becomes Open Season inventory, and we still have our points to use for another interval or exchange.
> 
> That having been said, @Tamaraderann indicates that the same inventory is available during Club Season (at the target resorts). That would indicate to me that the intervals are not fixed, and that owners have not reserved their time. Exchangers may be playing "roulette" with their points, hoping (or assuming) that OS will allow them to bag a choice week for a small investment of $s. The system kind of makes sense to me. Perhaps, the HGVC logic is to drive those people to make their commitments earlier, thus stabilizing the inventory.
> 
> The downside to trying to stabilize the inventory is simply that people who choose to wait until late in the game may not see any availability once it becomes less cost effective to wait.
> 
> I don't know what the ultimate solution is! My upset comes from a LARGE increase with little or no notice and no real explanation why.
> 
> Maybe, HGVC should implement a sliding scale for OS reservations, e.g., at 30 days, you pay $200; at 14 days, you pay $100; @ 5 days, you pay $50. Again, counterintuitive, but more like the actual rental market. If you are not renting it, you drop the price. The people who wait take a chance on getting a good deal or missing out completely. Interesting?
> 
> Perhaps, if there was some indication (other than greed) as to why this change could make things better for a significant segment of owners, it would be easier to swallow. The lack of transparency relegates the decision to an indication of greed and lack of concern. That should really be the focus of our upset.
> 
> On reflecting, I think that HGVC's prompt answers to my messages (ALL of them) may indicate that they know they blew it and are trying to make amends of some sort. I guess I can hope!!
> 
> Tom



You do realize that some don't book HGVC locations for a whole week at a time and instead book partial weeks of 3-6 days correct? That is where the gaps come into play. (E.g. I book a fri - mon reservation and someone else books a Thur to sun reservation leaving tues and Wed open and not availabel for club season due to being less than 3 nights).


----------



## GeorgeJ.

Jason245 said:


> So, which weeks are inventory owned by HGVC?
> 
> They pay hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) of MF for all the units they own (the ones they keep trying to sell to people and the ones they use to generate the bonus points).



It's pretty obvious which weeks are HGVC owned...they're on hilton.com...

Just picking random dates in January 2015, there is no availability at Lagoon Tower or Grand Waikikian under Open Season, but hilton.com is selling 1-br units at HGVC Hilton Hawaiian Village for $389 a night. If they put them on Open Season they'd have to sell them for much less under the old rate chart. So they're skipping that and selling them for retail on hilton.com   If they're able to get the increased Open Season rates past us, I think they'll then list them both on hilton.com and Open Season at the same retail rates.


----------



## toontoy

I called and emailed and even posted on Facebook and I received the same canned answer.


----------



## Jason245

GeorgeJ. said:


> It's pretty obvious which weeks are HGVC owned...they're on hilton.com...
> 
> Just picking random dates in January 2015, there is no availability at Lagoon Tower or Grand Waikikian under Open Season, but hilton.com is selling 1-br units at HGVC Hilton Hawaiian Village for $389 a night. If they put them on Open Season they'd have to sell them for much less under the old rate chart. So they're skipping that and selling them for retail on hilton.com   If they're able to get the increased Open Season rates past us, I think they'll then list them both on hilton.com and Open Season at the same retail rates.



Pick a week in April and look again. Look at December next year, look at thanksgiving. Strange, if Hilton was reserving weeks and "stealing" them from owners, then those are the weeks they would reserve and rent out, list them ASAP... They arn't... how strange.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Good Answer George*



GeorgeJ. said:


> It's pretty obvious which weeks are HGVC owned...they're on hilton.com...
> 
> Just picking random dates in January 2015, there is no availability at Lagoon Tower or Grand Waikikian under Open Season, but hilton.com is selling 1-br units at HGVC Hilton Hawaiian Village for $389 a night. If they put them on Open Season they'd have to sell them for much less under the old rate chart. So they're skipping that and selling them for retail on hilton.com   If they're able to get the increased Open Season rates past us, I think they'll then list them both on hilton.com and Open Season at the same retail rates.



That is a good answer to Jason.  May I add that any inventory that is listed in the club reservation inventory while it is also listed in the Open Season Inventory is owner/member inventory and should be at the old/current lower open season rates.  

I don't think they will be getting to the point of making the Hilton.com rates the same a Open Season Rates, but they have already indicated that they would be listing the availability on Open Season at a discount, even though very small discount, off the market rack rate.  That is not acceptable for owner/member inventory.


----------



## USDave

*A Hilton response whilst still side stepping the main issue.*

So I emailed and got the canned response however I emailed back and then in fairness to Barbie Rinks she emailed me back. 

*My response back to the canned response was*

Hi Barbara,

It is disappointing that your reply is a standard fob off. 

You indicate you will let us know the status of the 2015 increases when will this be? 

Do you genuinely believe a 100% increase in Open Season rates can be justified in any way? 

Could you give me any other examples of another multinational company trying to implement 100% year on year? 

Is Kim Robert Kreiger personally aware of this issue?

Take a look at TUG BBS to see the strength of feeling about this. 

This is a PR disaster for HGVC please let decency and common sense prevail. 

If you could reply to my individual questions it would be appreciated.

*Barbie responded* 


I am sorry for your disappointment with my response.  Communication regarding Open Season will be provided in the near future.  An exact rollout date has not been determined. 

In some cases, a 100% increase can be justified.  Open Season rates have not changed in several years and as a result have not kept up with the diversity of accommodations available through HGV.  The costs associated with the occupancy of a one-bedroom in Hawaii or New York do not compare with those in Myrtle Beach or even Orlando, so paying the same rate for both is not justified. 

I am not qualified to answer your question about other multinational companies, as I have not personally studied that. 

Kim Kreiger is aware and your feedback has been shared with him.

Thank you for taking the time to write.

Sincerely,

Barbie Rinks

*So I responded*

Thank you Barbie for coming back to me. I do appreciate that. 

I do understand there is a commercial value and basics of supply and demand that there will always mean Hawaii and New York have a higher commercial value to HGVC particularly against the wider market in those locations. However part of that pitfall is of HGVC own doing.

Did nobody see that when the open season was created? This is pretty basic stuff. 

I expect there to be price increases over time that is just life, but even for those areas 100% is extreme and creates bad feeling and distrust. There is better ways to generate revenues.

I run a business and we run a price increase programme considering the balance between commercial necessity, profit and yes what won't cause uproar. 

Clearly on the last point this has failed without question. 

Who actually decided on even that basis alone this would be a good idea?

There are lots of ways to generate further income and when the rates are in some cases more expense than the resort hotel rates that sticks in people's throats. Why not promise to be 35% cheaper than the best online rate ever for that date for those resorts. If it will predominately affect those resorts why not spell that out and take away the horrendous table that leaves people guessing. What you may gain in people planning more you will lose in referrals and good will from customers. I see people thinking about a family get together and now worrying if they can afford it because of a sudden change. 

I would urge yourself and Kim to read the TUG boards and if people have it wrong then tell them but when there is a vacuum of communication it creates uncertainty and that is exactly what people don't want. The whole system is based on if you stay in X resort at Y time of year you will pay Z.  

You know what those rates are given any time of year and we all know where we stand. I appreciate that the open season may get used more particularly by retired people who have the flexibility and may have started to use this instead of points but it does help in many resorts with lower occupancy levels. 

I do know NY and Hawaii could sell out many times over but as those rooms are "paid for" for those weeks by MF's so why is there a real need for the increase? Isn't this just bonus money? If I can get a real reason then it will help us to actually understand. 

I do love the resorts, many of the fabulous staff but with nearly 10,000 views on 2 threads and Facebook posts and tweets this will also put people off buying and none of us want that it doesn't help anyone, 

I would urge you to get Kim around a table with the senior team quickly and say this ain't working. How do we fix it? How do we communicate it? How do we get back to a simple table/grid that takes away the guessing? Not just for the club members but even the reservations staff don't understand it! Then how do we ensure we communicate with all our members to calm the waters. 

If Kim wishes to consult and stand up and be counted then ask him to join the debate it is not a lions den. I know not everyone will agree but he will get credit for facing the issue. 

Boston Red Sox owner John Henry met supporter groups in the past and even has had online conversations. 

Do you think the new OS table is easy to understand or does it create more questions that answers? Questions that your own staff can't answer. It may as well just have a huge question mark on it. 

I then got this response from Barbie

I assure you I have shared  your feedback with the Club Executive Team.   There is no further information I am able to provide relating to this matter.

Thank you for writing.  I wish you and your family a very Happy New Year.

Sincerely,

Barbie Rinks
________________________________
Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director – Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835
brinks@hgvc.com




________________________________


----------



## Jason245

USDave said:


> So I emailed and got the canned response however I emailed back and then in fairness to Barbie Rinks she emailed me back.
> 
> *My response back to the canned response was*
> 
> Hi Barbara,
> 
> It is disappointing that your reply is a standard fob off.
> 
> You indicate you will let us know the status of the 2015 increases when will this be?
> 
> Do you genuinely believe a 100% increase in Open Season rates can be justified in any way?
> 
> Could you give me any other examples of another multinational company trying to implement 100% year on year?
> 
> Is Kim Robert Kreiger personally aware of this issue?
> 
> Take a look at TUG BBS to see the strength of feeling about this.
> 
> This is a PR disaster for HGVC please let decency and common sense prevail.
> 
> If you could reply to my individual questions it would be appreciated.
> 
> *Barbie responded*
> 
> 
> I am sorry for your disappointment with my response.  Communication regarding Open Season will be provided in the near future.  An exact rollout date has not been determined.
> 
> In some cases, a 100% increase can be justified.  Open Season rates have not changed in several years and as a result have not kept up with the diversity of accommodations available through HGV.  The costs associated with the occupancy of a one-bedroom in Hawaii or New York do not compare with those in Myrtle Beach or even Orlando, so paying the same rate for both is not justified.
> 
> I am not qualified to answer your question about other multinational companies, as I have not personally studied that.
> 
> Kim Kreiger is aware and your feedback has been shared with him.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Barbie Rinks
> 
> *So I responded*
> 
> Thank you Barbie for coming back to me. I do appreciate that.
> 
> I do understand there is a commercial value and basics of supply and demand that there will always mean Hawaii and New York have a higher commercial value to HGVC particularly against the wider market in those locations. However part of that pitfall is of HGVC own doing.
> 
> Did nobody see that when the open season was created? This is pretty basic stuff.
> 
> I expect there to be price increases over time that is just life, but even for those areas 100% is extreme and creates bad feeling and distrust. There is better ways to generate revenues.
> 
> I run a business and we run a price increase programme considering the balance between commercial necessity, profit and yes what won't cause uproar.
> 
> Clearly on the last point this has failed without question.
> 
> Who actually decided on even that basis alone this would be a good idea?
> 
> There are lots of ways to generate further income and when the rates are in some cases more expense than the resort hotel rates that sticks in people's throats. Why not promise to be 35% cheaper than the best online rate ever for that date for those resorts. If it will predominately affect those resorts why not spell that out and take away the horrendous table that leaves people guessing. What you may gain in people planning more you will lose in referrals and good will from customers. I see people thinking about a family get together and now worrying if they can afford it because of a sudden change.
> 
> I would urge yourself and Kim to read the TUG boards and if people have it wrong then tell them but when there is a vacuum of communication it creates uncertainty and that is exactly what people don't want. The whole system is based on if you stay in X resort at Y time of year you will pay Z.
> 
> You know what those rates are given any time of year and we all know where we stand. I appreciate that the open season may get used more particularly by retired people who have the flexibility and may have started to use this instead of points but it does help in many resorts with lower occupancy levels.
> 
> I do know NY and Hawaii could sell out many times over but as those rooms are "paid for" for those weeks by MF's so why is there a real need for the increase? Isn't this just bonus money? If I can get a real reason then it will help us to actually understand.
> 
> I do love the resorts, many of the fabulous staff but with nearly 10,000 views on 2 threads and Facebook posts and tweets this will also put people off buying and none of us want that it doesn't help anyone,
> 
> I would urge you to get Kim around a table with the senior team quickly and say this ain't working. How do we fix it? How do we communicate it? How do we get back to a simple table/grid that takes away the guessing? Not just for the club members but even the reservations staff don't understand it! Then how do we ensure we communicate with all our members to calm the waters.
> 
> If Kim wishes to consult and stand up and be counted then ask him to join the debate it is not a lions den. I know not everyone will agree but he will get credit for facing the issue.
> 
> Boston Red Sox owner John Henry met supporter groups in the past and even has had online conversations.
> 
> Do you think the new OS table is easy to understand or does it create more questions that answers? Questions that your own staff can't answer. It may as well just have a huge question mark on it.
> 
> I then got this response from Barbie
> 
> I assure you I have shared  your feedback with the Club Executive Team.   There is no further information I am able to provide relating to this matter.
> 
> Thank you for writing.  I wish you and your family a very Happy New Year.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Barbie Rinks
> ________________________________
> Barbara Rinks
> Sr. Director – Owner and Club Services
> ________________________________
> T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
> 6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
> Orlando, FL 32835
> brinks@hgvc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________



I think it is great that they are responding at all.  I know that it isn't an answer we would like to see, but it is an answer. 

I can only hope that they start being a little more transparent.


----------



## TTom

*Let's give Barbie credit*

I'm sure some of this comes wih the position, but she seems to be trying and, at least, she has indicated that this is visible at the executive level. Beyond that, I don't know what she can do.

Philosophically, if HGVC screwed up by not addressing discrepancies in OS rates, they are taking a big risk by attempting a "broad brush," immediate solution to a long term problem, largely of their own making. That makes the solution seem arrogant and uncaring. There are probably a number of ways they could have accomplished their goal without arrousing member anger, even if it might have taken a while longer to get there.

Oh well, they will do what they will do and we will do what we will.

Happy New Year!

Tom


----------



## piyooshj

Nice work Jason. There is discrepancy in demand supply for some markets and that ought to be fixed. I am not an avid user of OS as my schedule is not fixed. I am sure there are some/few users who benefit the most from OS. 

At the end if these increase in OS decreases MFs for everyone so that it is more equitable I am happy. But if only goes towards the profit of corp.....its another story.


----------



## Jason245

piyooshj said:


> Nice work Jason. There is discrepancy in demand supply for some markets and that ought to be fixed. I am not an avid user of OS as my schedule is not fixed. I am sure there are some/few users who benefit the most from OS.
> 
> At the end if these increase in OS decreases MFs for everyone so that it is more equitable I am happy. But if only goes towards the profit of corp.....its another story.



As much as i would like to take credit for the work of another, it was not me, I was just quoting USDave

It has already been confirmed that revenue from OS does not go to HOA.


----------



## nlehvac

TTom said:


> I'm sure some of this comes wih the position, but she seems to be trying and, at least, she has indicated that this is visible at the executive level. Beyond that, I don't know what she can do.
> 
> Philosophically, if HGVC screwed up by not addressing discrepancies in OS rates, they are taking a big risk by attempting a "broad brush," immediate solution to a long term problem, largely of their own making. That makes the solution seem arrogant and uncaring. There are probably a number of ways they could have accomplished their goal without arrousing member anger, even if it might have taken a while longer to get there.
> 
> Oh well, they will do what they will do and we will do what we will.
> 
> Happy New Year!
> 
> Tom



  I was also glad to see a "real" response from Barbie, even if not all questions could be answered. I'm sure she isn't in a position to do so until further executive discussion. I think I mentioned the other day that as Barbie indicates, there are what could be considered rational reasons for this system, and if the system had STARTED this way, there would probably have never been this problem. However, as you point out, trying to fix it in one giant step is NOT the way to do it. Even health insurance companies know they can only go so far per year!! Hopefully, someone there WILL look at the BB, as I think several alternatives have been suggested. Of course, since they have more info than we, some may not be workable for one reason or another. However, I think there may be some cracks of light appearing. Notice she now states they don't know when it will be implemented. Maybe this run up the flagpole has shown it needs to be taken down and another approach taken. I had HOPED she'd indicate some plan to include some member(s) in the executive discussion before actions are taken. When my college campus "blew up" in the 60's, an elected undergrad was included on the board of trustees from then on to bring their point of view to decisions. It may be time for HGVC to do the same.


----------



## USDave

*It's a human response but only a start*

So Barbie responded why shouldn't she that's her job and we are club members. I am glad she did but it is not a cause for celebration as such. I know I sm hard to please! 

Are we any further on? No not really, nothing has changed.

We can't settle for "well we tried and we told them" mentality. I read a post by George on the other thread that said all timeshare companies will do it either sell up or live with it.

I couldn't disagree more. WE CAN AFFECT this situation. 

We now know that Kim Krieger Snr VP at HGVC is personally aware and so is the executive team and whilst they may not want to be rushed if 10,000 views of a topic don't get you moving very rapidly then we needs to INCREASE THE MOMENTUM not take our foot off the gas!!

I am not talking pie in the sky here I have worked at an exec level and know that things reach a tipping point and companies hold out trying to take the sting out and see if they get away with it later on. 

When you get paid the big bucks you have to step up to the plate to answer and deal with customer opinion. We are not being aggressive or rude but we are asking for answers and asking them to explain and justify the decisions. 

Barbie was kind enough to respond and we have her telephone number and email address to be able to contact her. SO LET'S DO IT. Do we really just except the canned response? Do they actually know the strength of feeling? Let us leave this in NO DOUBT. This ain't about Barbie at all but about Kim not dealing with this swiftly and taking away uncertainty. However it is part of Kim's job remit to deal and respond to these issues. 

They could come out and say we got this wrong we are doing XYZ about it and we will come back to you with a new OS table in 2 weeks. So we need action and decisions if the can't make a decision at the level quickly then they shouldn't be in post. 

I do appreciate they may be thinking we made a hash of it first time so we must get it right but get a move on! 

CALL TO ACTION
Keeping the momentum please continue to post on Facebook but Twitter as well but not just the overall HGVC Twitter and Facebook but the resorts too especially the newer ones. I would suggest you give your view but also pose questions. 

If you get a canned response and for those that have - challenge it! 

If you are reading these posts as a prospective buyer as I was before I bought JOIN IN - Let Hilton know that this change impacts your view of HGVC. All this uncertainty creates instability and instability has an impact on sales. 

Steel yourself for a challenge it can't simply be that I've sent it and let's hope. 

Let's create the tipping point. 

It is not aggressive or rude it is just right thing to do.


----------



## USDave

Funnily enough I have only used OS for a few days and was planning to again this year but to me it is not really about how much you actually use it......


----------



## TTom

*More thoughts*

I have also not used OS much, but am upset by the way the situation was handled.

I have already thought about contacting the resorts where I own to express my displeasure with this and how it might conceivably impact their reservations.

I guess I am always skeptical about large corporations (or anyone, for that matter) taking the time to respond to people who are not standing in front of them (including the customer service or support people on the phone who pay lip service, but never really do anything). For that reason alone, I am grateful for Barbie's attempt to respond, as feeble as it may have been to the overall situation.

I guess we will see how Kim and the rest of senior management at HGVC respond. We should definitely be prepared to continue the discourse, but we also need to give them a chance to do something. It is, after all, the holiday season, and the start of a new year. Unlikely that the executive leadership of HGVC considers this enough of a crisis to move in a matter of hours or days.

That is not to say that we should not expect something from them in a matter of a week or two, even if it is only an announcement that they will be making an announcement.

Tom


----------



## jestme

> Barbie responded
> 
> 
> I am sorry for your disappointment with my response. Communication regarding Open Season will be provided in the near future. An exact rollout date has not been determined.
> 
> In some cases, a 100% increase can be justified. Open Season rates have not changed in several years and as a result have not kept up with the diversity of accommodations available through HGV. The costs associated with the occupancy of a one-bedroom in Hawaii or New York do not compare with those in Myrtle Beach or even Orlando, so paying the same rate for both is not justified.
> 
> I am not qualified to answer your question about other multinational companies, as I have not personally studied that.
> 
> Kim Kreiger is aware and your feedback has been shared with him.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Barbie Rinks


My response to Barbie would be:
Barbie, 
FYI, Open Season rates went up 70% last year as well, in the same way. No prior announcement, no explanation, etc. Also, you should understand that the HOA at the local resort pays for the costs, not HGVC. Therefore, any associated costs for Hawaii or NY you refer to are irrelevant to these new charges. Those additional costs are already built into the MF's at the resorts. Perhaps, if HGVC wants to share ALL the Open Season revenue with the HOA to offset the additional costs, then those who own at the " high demand" resorts might be more receptive. They currently carry the costs, without any revenue to offset it.


----------



## Tamaradarann

USDave said:


> So Barbie responded why shouldn't she that's her job and we are club members. I am glad she did but it is not a cause for celebration as such. I know I sm hard to please!
> 
> Are we any further on? No not really, nothing has changed.
> 
> We can't settle for "well we tried and we told them" mentality. I read a post by George on the other thread that said all timeshare companies will do it either sell up or live with it.
> 
> I couldn't disagree more. WE CAN AFFECT this situation.
> 
> We now know that Kim Krieger Snr VP at HGVC is personally aware and so is the executive team and whilst they may not want to be rushed if 10,000 views of a topic don't get you moving very rapidly then we needs to INCREASE THE MOMENTUM not take our foot off the gas!!
> 
> I am not talking pie in the sky here I have worked at an exec level and know that things reach a tipping point and companies hold out trying to take the sting out and see if they get away with it later on.
> 
> When you get paid the big bucks you have to step up to the plate to answer and deal with customer opinion. We are not being aggressive or rude but we are asking for answers and asking them to explain and justify the decisions.
> 
> Barbie was kind enough to respond and we have her telephone number and email address to be able to contact her. SO LET'S DO IT. Do we really just except the canned response? Do they actually know the strength of feeling? Let us leave this in NO DOUBT. This ain't about Barbie at all but about Kim not dealing with this swiftly and taking away uncertainty. However it is part of Kim's job remit to deal and respond to these issues.
> 
> They could come out and say we got this wrong we are doing XYZ about it and we will come back to you with a new OS table in 2 weeks. So we need action and decisions if the can't make a decision at the level quickly then they shouldn't be in post.
> 
> I do appreciate they may be thinking we made a hash of it first time so we must get it right but get a move on!
> 
> CALL TO ACTION
> Keeping the momentum please continue to post on Facebook but Twitter as well but not just the overall HGVC Twitter and Facebook but the resorts too especially the newer ones. I would suggest you give your view but also pose questions.
> 
> If you get a canned response and for those that have - challenge it!
> 
> If you are reading these posts as a prospective buyer as I was before I bought JOIN IN - Let Hilton know that this change impacts your view of HGVC. All this uncertainty creates instability and instability has an impact on sales.
> 
> Steel yourself for a challenge it can't simply be that I've sent it and let's hope.
> 
> Let's create the tipping point.
> 
> It is not aggressive or rude it is just right thing to do.



Barbara has been very responsive to my e-mails in the last month.  I was the first one to bring this up to the HGVC Elite Group call center at 8:05 on the morning of December 4th.  They gave me Barbara's e-mail and I wrote to her later that morning.  She called me back early that afternoon.  I sent this e-mail to Barbara a few days ago.  Her response was the same as you got Dave.  She indicated that she was forwarding my comments to Executive Management and they are working on the issue and will be sending out a decision on Open Season Rates.

By the way when I called the call center on December 4th it was to book January 1st and 2nd at a 1 BR+ at the Hokolani in Honolulu for $305.  I have never stayed at the Hokolani so it was something that I was looking forward to.  I initially thought that the website must be wrong since it was charging me $570.  Well I am leaving tomorrow morning to stay at the Hokolani for $305.  I will then be moving to the HHV on January 3rd.   I will probably not be on the website for some days until I get settled.  

Hi Barbara,
I have watched the open season availability specifically in Honolulu and Miami South Beach over a period of time.  It appears to me that the open season availability is the availability in Club Reservation Season that wasn't reserved by owners/members by the 30 day check-in date.  The HGVC statement that was placed on social media sites indicates that the open season availability is primarily derived from members depositing their points for Partner Perks.  

What is the the derivation of the Open Season Availability?  

Areas with very limited availability like Honolulu and Miami South Beach and perhaps Big Island are the only ones that the true derivation of open season availability really matters since they will be the ones to have increased open season rates.  Many of the other resorts have so much availability that just getting the rooms filled at any price is an accomplishment.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*My follow-up to Barbara's Last Response*

Hi Barbara,

You have been very helpful in addressing this issue.  However, the question on derivation of Open Season Availability does not appear to be one in which Executive Management needs to huddle to come up with a new policy.  It should be a matter of record.  HGVC made a statement on the derivation of Open Season Availability.  One of the areas that I am particular interested in the derivation of open season availability is Honolulu and South Beach.  These are also one of the main areas which were to be effected by the raising of open season rates. 

Please be sure that Executive Management addresses this particular point in their statement and policy revision.


----------



## nlehvac

*Who is on the HGVC Exec committee?*

Just wondering ... are any HOA presidents (or other officers -- like a specific "liason officer") on that committee?


----------



## Jason245

nlehvac said:


> Just wondering ... are any HOA presidents (or other officers -- like a specific "liason officer") on that committee?



Kim is on the board of all the HGVC properties... since none of the open season revenue goes to the Association, the only thing you can do is threaton to remove HGVC as management of a resort (not likely to be feasable unless you own an affiliate, and even then, it is an empty threat given the muscle that HGVC has).


----------



## nlehvac

*Exec committee makeup*



Jason245 said:


> Kim is on the board of all the HGVC properties... since none of the open season revenue goes to the Association, the only thing you can do is threaton to remove HGVC as management of a resort (not likely to be feasable unless you own an affiliate, and even then, it is an empty threat given the muscle that HGVC has).



That's the reverse direction, though. Even if he knew last April when my HOA met that this was in the wind, he was not required to mention it. If it was reversed, the committee would get feedback on what current member reaction might be OR, as it has been pointed out, losing out a "selling point" which could help them sell more weeks directly, or decreasing the number of referrals to new possible members by current members. They might have gotten these views which may have been missing at the policy meeting(s) that basically tend to include company lawyers and bean counters only looking from one side of the equation. We have to remember $$ is what it all comes down to.

PS Unless I found an outdated page showing the membership of the Executive Committee, Kim Kreiger is not on it. I also found this paragraph in a Jan 2014 "New Year's Greeting" from him I don't think I noticed before ...

"We continue to see strong demand for Open Season reservations and simply want to offer the reminder that this travel option _offers last-minute access to unreserved or cancelled accommodations.* Rates vary by property*_, unit type and season. If you're able to travel within a 30-day window, and you are flexible enough to select from available resorts, Open Season reservations are a great option to consider."

Interesting, no?


----------



## Jason245

nlehvac said:


> That's the reverse direction, though. Even if he knew last April when my HOA met that this was in the wind, he was not required to mention it. If it was reversed, the committee would get feedback on what current member reaction might be OR, as it has been pointed out, losing out a "selling point" which could help them sell more weeks directly, or decreasing the number of referrals to new possible members by current members. They might have gotten these views which may have been missing at the policy meeting(s) that basically tend to include company lawyers and bean counters only looking from one side of the equation. We have to remember $$ is what it all comes down to.



I am confused as to what you are getting at. HOA has as much say in HGVC exchange system decisions as it does in RCI (none). 

The only thing an HOA can decide on is whether it wants to participate in those systems (or so I thought).


----------



## nlehvac

Jason245 said:


> I am confused as to what you are getting at. HOA has as much say in HGVC exchange system decisions as it does in RCI (none).
> 
> The only thing an HOA can decide on is whether it wants to participate in those systems (or so I thought).


I see what you mean - a particular resort could revolt and decide to "go it alone" or decide to go Mariott for management? I guess I do have it backwards. Just thought as a way of "good client relations," if indeed the HOA's are only "clients," they might want to know their opinion. Just like my university decided it was a good idea to have THEIR clients (the students) on the board to express that point of view. Those clients could certainly go elsewhere!

BTW ... I see now the board I was able to find was Hilton Int'l, not HGVC. The only site I found that tried to show the HGVC committees without spending all day looking said the info was unavailable.


----------



## TTom

*HOA Voice*

While the individual HOA's may have little or no voice in HGVC's decisions, it could not help for them (who, after all, represent a significant portion of HGVC's owners) to voice the collected opinion of their owners.

If, instead of just "bolting" from HGVC, the resorts saw a spike in resales (not that I expect that to happen), they might have a vested interest in applying pressure to HGVC to do something to stem the tide of individual owners jumping ship.

In any case, it cannot hurt for us to express our concern to anyone who might be inclined to listen.

Tom


----------



## Jason245

nlehvac said:


> I see what you mean - a particular resort could revolt and decide to "go it alone" or decide to go Mariott for management? I guess I do have it backwards. Just thought as a way of "good client relations," if indeed the HOA's are only "clients," they might want to know their opinion. Just like my university decided it was a good idea to have THEIR clients (the students) on the board to express that point of view. Those clients could certainly go elsewhere!
> 
> BTW ... I see now the board I was able to find was Hilton Int'l, not HGVC. The only site I found that tried to show the HGVC committees without spending all day looking said the info was unavailable.



There is a link (the website is down, otherwise I would give it to you) on the HGVClub site that gives all the legal disclaimers (PDF file dozens of pages long) regarding rules and regs and key people for HGVC.


----------



## Jason245

TTom said:


> While the individual HOA's may have little or no voice in HGVC's decisions, it could not help for them (who, after all, represent a significant portion of HGVC's owners) to voice the collected opinion of their owners.
> 
> If, instead of just "bolting" from HGVC, the resorts saw a spike in resales (not that I expect that to happen), they might have a vested interest in applying pressure to HGVC to do something to stem the tide of individual owners jumping ship.
> 
> In any case, it cannot hurt for us to express our concern to anyone who might be inclined to listen.
> 
> Tom



HGVC developed resorts would have a very hard time getting out of the HGVC system. Only the affiliates could do this, and even those might have a hard time since HGVC probably owns some significant number (for that resort) of time intervals at each of them that would give them a strong voice on the board.


----------



## Talent312

In the time that I've been a member (since 2007), eggsactly one affiliate has discharged HGVC as management. Shell Island Beach Club (Sanibel) terminated HGVC "for cause" over dissatisfaction with hurricane reconstruction in 2009. A lawsuit between the parties was settled in 2010.

If interested, you can read the settlement agreement here: http://www.shellislandbeachclubsanibel.com/webfm_send/64
.


----------



## Jason245

Talent312 said:


> In the time that I've been a member (since 2007), eggsactly one affiliate has discharged HGVC as management. Shell Island Beach Club (Sanibel) terminated HGVC "for cause" over dissatisfaction with hurricane reconstruction in 2009. A lawsuit between the parties was settled in 2010.
> 
> If interested, you can read the settlement agreement here: http://www.shellislandbeachclubsanibel.com/webfm_send/64
> .



Do you have any insight as to what the issue was?


----------



## TTom

*I agree*

that the likelihood of any change in the relationships of resorts with HGVC is very unlikely (almost impossible). I was just saying if the resort mananagment (i.e., the HOA) joins in expressing displeasure with the decision, it can't hurt.

Presumably, they could say, "we are hearing from many of our owners that they are unappy and, as a result our sales and occupancy are down." It might resonate with the corporate bean counters? 

Relying solely on individual owners to contact the club and keep the pressure on is going to be a tough thing. The resorts have regular, if not daily contact with HGVC, and it is probably easier for them to keep the tune playing.

No magic bullets, and little likelihood of an impact, but something to suggest.

Tom


----------



## USDave

Happy New Year All. I hope 2015 brings you health, wealth and happiness. 

It is interesting when you read the posts and Tamaradarann is quite right HGVC have now been made aware of this issue nearly a month! 

Whilst Tom is right they won't view it a "crisis" as such. It is a crisis of member and prospective member opinion just based on views and posts. Execs often have time booked off at the start and end of the year and they take their eye of the ball. The communication has been inept and if we keep the momentum it will hurt the sales before they know it. 

Denise/Brian could you make this issue central in the email newsletter please? I am sure that "buyer rescinds in the nick of time" topic could wait to the issue after 
Joke!

There are now a number of posts on the HGVC Facebook site so we are starting to create a theme. 

Tom you are right it can be tough going relying on a few of us to keep pushing the issue but that is what it will take and I am up for it and I think you and a few more besides are too! 

For me the issue about getting resorts to change management is not going to happen and in truth I love many of the things that Hilton offer and it helps retain the value of the offering. As I am sure most would agree we like many aspects of the resorts. However I would raise the issue with the HOA's and directly with each resort you own at so this is being fed back by every channel.

What do you think about setting a date when as many as possible call to discuss the issue with HGVC? This is not intended to be a nuisance but to highlight the strength of feeling.

If we let it fade away it will. 

WE NEED YOUR HELP and contribution.

HOW - email, ring, post to HGVC Facebook, tweet to HGVC Twitter AND resort feed and post on TUG also join the debate. 

If your reading these posts come on join in!

If we can feel this strongly about a subject when frankly we have been at a crazy time of year, we can have an even greater impact from now on for the next month, two months or however long it takes.


----------



## JM48

Dave,
 I applaud your efforts on this matter! I agree if we keep this up we might get noticed.
 I sent an e mail to both B. Brinks & to K. Kreiger. 
Ms. Brinks did respond it was a polite standard response,
which pointed out that they were delaying the increase until later so they could re-evaluate it.
I then asked if they were really going to do something or just "wait us out".
She said she was bring it to the attn. of the Exec. Comm. 

 I only got the "thanks for sending us an e mail" from K. Kreiger nothing more.

 I am not on Facebook but I did send a Tweet.

Thanks


JM


----------



## USDave

Great JM 

Thank you for kind words. As I have said in earlier posts it is about creating a tipping point and I really believe we can do that. 

What do you think about the idea of a day or days when as many of us call to discuss the issue. 

The problem with email is they can easily side step issue if we let them! 

I would ask if the send you the standard thank you and bye email that you pose questions to them that why it is harder to fob you off and they have to give thought to answers and if the don't answer we can say why haven't you answered them.

My wife thinks I am crazy as we have only ever used OS for a few days to extended a 2 week but that is not the point it is the principle that they believe a 100% increase is acceptable or the right thing to do.


----------



## TTom

*Resorts on Social Media*

I looked around for a presence on Twitter and Facebook for the two HGVC resorts I own (Club Regency and The Bay Club). Both had a "presence" on Facebook, but neither of them was officially sanctioned by the resort. They are pages generated by "user interest" on Facebook. While they might be of interest, I doubt they will get the message to resort management.

I'm guessing I will have to search out direct channels to resort management.

Tom


----------



## JM48

Dave,

I don't know where you are from but my wife thinks we are related!! I agree it is another perk they are cutting back on or lowering its value. At some point we should stand up & say enough is enough! 

 I am not a big fan of tying up the phone lines to prove a point, it is hard enough to get through some days as it is. 
 I agree that a few calls each day would be OK so the CS people will send the message to the higher ups. Most of the CS people I have talked to are polite but don't do anymore then listen & say they will pass it on.

 I think they think by Apr. we will all have forgotten about this & they can just slide in a gradual increase at a few resorts now then a few later then by years end they will have exactly what they wanted. At least this forum won't let that happen.

 It would be nice to see this in the weekly news letter from TUG.


 JM


----------



## piyooshj

I just checked OS rates and within the same market they vary resort by resort. Have they not fixed it yet or they going to refund the difference at checkin?


----------



## USDave

Funny JM,

I don't think that my family has spread as far as Boston maybe the "we shall not be defeated gene" is in both families. 

I hear you about tying up the phone lines I was thinking more about calling Barbie and the corporate office rather than the contact centre for the reasons you mentioned!

Piyooshj

Yes they are planning to refund at check on for those that have already booked.

Any prospective buyers out there wondering what all the fuss is all about.


----------



## letsgosteelers

USDave said:


> Any prospective buyers out there wondering what all the fuss is all about.



doubtful, prospective buyers find tug AFTER the retail purchase.


----------



## letsgosteelers

yet another canned reponse on the fb posts

Hilton Grand Vacations Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.

We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.

For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).

We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.​
so the question is, is the upated fee structure the same they implemented or is it going to change based on consumer feedback?

instead of 100%, 90%


----------



## USDave

Hi letsgosteelers

Don't forget they only get away with the canned response if we let them. 

If you can respond and don't let them off the hook crucial not to let them off the hook.


----------



## letsgosteelers

USDave said:


> Hi letsgosteelers
> 
> Don't forget they only get away with the canned response if we let them.
> 
> If you can respond and don't let them off the hook crucial not to let them off the hook.



what's funny is I saw an earlier version of that post they deleted...maybe too strong??  


Increasing Open Season rates by upwards of 100% and then stating you will delay for a quarter is not reasonable nor acceptable.

The recent IPO should not be a reason for lining the pockets of mgmt since the resorts themselves do not receive this income thereby contribution to lowering or off-setting maint fees.

It was a slick move with no warning but this type of underhanded shennanigans should not be tolerated.  

It ranks right up there with contininuing to declare "Hands Up Don't Shoot" when the facts prove out no such action took place.

Here, the facts matter, and there is no justification for raising rates 100% on Jan 1st or Apr 1st, or any other day.​


----------



## hvacrsteve

I wish you all well with this!  I dumped my Hilton Club, My Hilton Amex, My Hilton Citi Bank because of the changes they made last year!

I am almost out of Hilton points now and don't plan on going to Hilton much anymore period!   I am happy to have gotten out when I did!  They really could care less about us!

I wish I didn't feel that way, but I in fact do!

I hope they get your message!


----------



## Tamaradarann

*HGVC is a Good Timeshare System*



hvacrsteve said:


> I wish you all well with this!  I dumped my Hilton Club, My Hilton Amex, My Hilton Citi Bank because of the changes they made last year!
> 
> I am almost out of Hilton points now and don't plan on going to Hilton much anymore period!   I am happy to have gotten out when I did!  They really could care less about us!
> 
> I wish I didn't feel that way, but I in fact do!
> 
> I hope they get your message!



I believe the Hilton Timeshare System is a good system.  I have had some great vacations at these resorts.  The people working there have been spectacular in the service and accommodations that they provide.  I definitely think that this Open Season Rate Increase was wrong and excessive and perhaps this leads some others to feel that HGVC doesn't care or their properties are not worth owning.  I can appreciate those thoughts but I never would have vacationed as much, in as many nice places, and been treated as nicely if it wasn't for HGVC.  Therefore, my feeling remains that I like the system, but don't like this latest degradation of the benefits of ownership.


----------



## USDave

That's right letsgosteelers

100% simply can't be justified. 

Tamaradarann you are quite right though there is an awful lot to happy about in the quality of the resorts that is why we bought them and pay the ever increasing MF's. 

However for those great reasons that is what we should fight this because it is worth fighting for to protect what we love and bought.


----------



## piyooshj

Guys there are very few people who take most of the advantage of OS. I think what we should fight for is income from higher OS rates goes to resort (at least a big%) so that it reduces MF for everyone thus negates the devaluation affect. This may be just a wishful thinking of mine....but just 2 cents. With lower MFs occasionally when I use OS at higher rates I won't mind.


----------



## USDave

Hi piyooshj

I hear your point but I think it is wishful thinking that they will use the money for a good cause. I my opinion this will be the thin end of the wedge for charges and will no explanation as to what the money is for and where it goes

The reason for this is simply cash generation I believe if they can get away it they will.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Open Season Availability Derivation and Reduced MF*



piyooshj said:


> Guys there are very few people who take most of the advantage of OS. I think what we should fight for is income from higher OS rates goes to resort (at least a big%) so that it reduces MF for everyone thus negates the devaluation affect. This may be just a wishful thinking of mine....but just 2 cents. With lower MFs occasionally when I use OS at higher rates I won't mind.



While I agree that using the revenue from the higher Open Season Reservations  to lower MF would be a benefit to owners, the settling of the derivation of the Open Season Availability is critical.  If HGVC would allow all the increased revenue to go to lowering MF regardless of where the availability came from then I am an advocate.  If Hilton just let the increase in revenue from the Club Reservation Availability that wasn't reserved by owner/members using their points then the owner/member group will be just getting back some revenue for weeks that they already paid full MF for.  If Hilton sells the availability on Hilton.com that was derived by owner/members depositing their points to Hilton Honors or for Perks, then that revenue wouldn't be benefiting owners.


----------



## mkaz

*Open Season Changes*

Can someone tell me where the open season changes were announced or how I can access the information? I need to review the announcement before I can contact HGV.  I did not receive an email as far as I can tell. Thanks.


----------



## hvacrsteve

It it not just the os increase, it is the added fees for reservations, cancellations, the devaluing of honors points, the list goes on and on!
When I purchased, I purchased resale and I received a really good deal.
But I hate when big corporations keep nickel and diming us because they know there is no recourse!
That is why I left Hilton although I still love Hilton overall and yes they have some nice resorts.
They have only added additional cost, they have not added any additional value to the time share purchasers!

So in life we all have to take decisions, only ones that affect a companies bottom line get heard!  Then they realize they did the wrong thing!
There are definitely numbers on this board, whether enough numbers to have an effect is questionable.
Conrad Hilton would be ashamed of what Blackrock is doing to it, that I do know!


----------



## Talent312

mkaz said:


> Can someone tell me where the open season changes were announced...  I need to review the announcement before I can contact HGV.  I did not receive an email as far as I can tell.



That is the point of this exercize... There was no announcement.
The higher rates were "discovered" by someone trying to book O/S.
You can wait for the announcement, but don't hold your breath.
.
.


----------



## piyooshj

They figured they can get by 70% hike last year w/o announcement so why NOT try 100% this time.


----------



## USDave

*Don't let them get away with it. They did last year.*

https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations

Let them know in public how you feel and if you get the canned response don't let it ride!


----------



## USDave

*They got away with it last year*

Hi folks, 

I would recommend calling to voice you dissatisfaction and discuss the issue, of course in a courteous manner but it is important to let them know our strength of feeling. Call to discuss the issue and then follow up with an email, if you get the canned response on email or Facebook challenge snd ask questions they can't give a canned response to questions if you insist on answers. 

Here is the details for Barbie below so please let them know.

Barbie Rinks
________________________________
Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director – Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835
brinks@hgvc.com


----------



## USDave

*Great News*

Many of you will be aware that the thread has featured in the weekly TUG newsletter thanks to Brian.

So if you are looking at this for the first time JOIN IN please.

We are nearly at 4500 views coupled with over 8000 for Tamaradarann original thread on the topic.

HGVC please listen to your members 100% increases can't be justified any day of the year!


----------



## Judi Kozlowski

*Open Season Rates*



USDave said:


> Many of you will be aware that the thread has featured in the weekly TUG newsletter thanks to Brian.
> 
> So if you are looking at this for the first time JOIN IN please.
> 
> We are nearly at 4500 views coupled with over 8000 for Tamaradarann original thread on the topic.
> 
> HGVC please listen to your members 100% increases can't be justified any day of the year!



Hilton is definitely listening to their membership as they usually do.  This is tabled for the first quarter.  Kim Kreiger is no longer there so Barbara Rinks would be the go to person.  This is the part of Hilton that makes ownership work in a lot of cases.  It is really important that they keep these fees in check


----------



## USDave

Hi Judi,

I am sure you may have the inside loop being the timeshare legend that you are but do you not think HGVC have very slow to react? 

I really do hope they listen but "trying it on" with a 100% increase really is poor.

Let's hope it changes but everyone don't believe it is done yet done need to keep the momentum going. 

I need YOUR involvement. 

Plus if you are looking for a HGVC then let Hilton know this is causing you to doubt but when hopefully they show they will listen. Judi is the lady to go to for advice, guidance and a time served reputation. I can say that from experience!


----------



## dabtpa

*Don't Know The New Rates*

I dropped out of the club this year. Could someone give me an example of the new rates?


----------



## USDave

*2014 rates*

[QUOTE






Sent from my iPad [/QUOTE]


----------



## mtm65

Judi Kozlowski said:


> .  Kim Kreiger is no longer there so Barbara Rinks would be the go to person.



Hi Judy, is Kim Kreiger no longer with Hilton or just no longer involved with this issue?  If he is not with Hilton, what happened?


----------



## USDave

*2015 rates*

[QUOTE this was on the other thread.

Here are the 2015 rates:





Note the price range now.  There is no explanation on how the ranges will be used, but it seems that HGVC can simply just pick a rate within that range, depending on how they feel.

This illustrates how disgraceful this attempted Heist is.

/QUOTE]


----------



## TheCryptkeeper

Here is a copy of the second email I've sent to HGVC:

Dear Barbara Brinks,

I want to voice my concern over the horrendous increase you propose instituting on HGVC Open Season Rates in 2015.  I am in the process of adding West 57th Street to my vacation portfolio.  However, your decision to raise fees this much displays a total disregard for your owners and undermines the value of their properties.  I am therefore considering selling both of my HGVC resorts before you devalue them further.  

Postponing the fee increase by a few months as you propose as a remedy is no solution and reveals how out of touch your company is with its customers.

Sincerely,


----------



## Uscjusto

I sent an email voicing my concern. 

Here was the reply:

Your feedback is very important to us.  Relating to the Open Season benefit, we have committed to easing any inconvenience the rate increases have caused  by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.  We will communicate with our membership base in the near future the status of the 2015 rate increases.

We sincerely appreciate you as a member of Hilton Grand Vacations Club, and extend our best wishes for a happy and prosperous 2015.

Sincerely,

Barbie Rinks

________________________________
Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director - Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835
brinks@hgvc.com


----------



## USDave

Thank you for keeping the momentum! 

With over 14000 views between the 2 threads we are getting closer to creating that tipping point that forces HGVC to toke action. 

Uscjusto please reply and don't let them get away with that canned response that they initially sent everyone. 

I created this thread after reading Tamaradaranng's great thread but wanted a greater focus on asking for the disgraceful 100% to be changed rather than just all coming together to moan about it. 

So let's make it happen together we need to continue the momentum. 

SO IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND THE OTHER THREAD - GET INVOLVED 

Please pose questions and ask them to justify the decision. Make them work to justify it if they really believe it is. 

I have seen lots of people comment on run of the mill topics, this will be the thin end of the wedge unless we stop it! This thread is for participating, so come on join the party! 


Cryptkeeper 
thanks keep at it!


----------



## chickensoop

Maybe ..... boycott all 'update' meetings when staying at HGVC until they get the message.


----------



## TTom

I like the idea of boycotting sales presentations. Just need to be mindful that not all owner updates are sales presentations.

The key, however, is not just to boycott, but to make it very clear to the sales people WHY you are boycotting.

As an alternative, for an "open" sales presentation, you can always attend and ask pointed questions??

Tom


----------



## Talent312

TTom said:


> ...Just need to be mindful that not all owner updates are sales presentations.



I've never heard of (or attended) one that was not a sales presentation.
I'd need to see a sworn Affidavit (not a TUG post) to accept the possibility.

However, many owners are happy to sell their souls for a $100 dinner credit.


----------



## TheCryptkeeper

Here's the response -- not very encouraging -- Barbie Rinks sent to my follow-up:

Thank you for your follow-up from December 25.  At this time, I am unable to respond further on this matter.  I will certainly keep you posted once I know more.

Sincerely,

Barbie Rinks


----------



## JenMuse

Sent a tweet. What we need on twitter is a consistent hashtag. I used #devalued as that is how the OS rate change makes me feel.

If you tweet to @HiltonGrandVac try to use the same hashtag.

My tweet: @HiltonGrandVac I was planning to use Open Season for a fall vacation; the 2015 100% increase means I'll stay elsewhere or home. #devalued


----------



## USDave

*Challenge it*

Hi Cryptkeeper,

Great for following challenge the response though. Ask when they will have an update they have known about the discontent for a month but only pressure has been applied since Christmas.

Keep the momentum. 

Chickensoop love the idea and would urge people to do it. 

I do hear what Talent is saying in that lots of people will seek a $100 dinner ticket over making a stand but hopefully we each step we will start to make an impact! 

Tom like you idea too.


----------



## TTom

Nothing wrong with getting a $100 dinner for telling the Sales Rep that the current OS policy is a "deal breaker." That would probably be more disruptive than simply refusing to attend. On top of it, the poor sales rep would be wasting time which could be spent with potential buyers, a double whammy.

Of course, I don't know that HGVC corporate cares all that much about individual sales people taking a hit for their bad judgement. Guess maybe whn they have a bunch of inventory which they are on the hook for the MF, they might get it?

The sad thing about this is that we are punishing people who probably had nothing to do with the decisions.

BTW, a couple of people have "liked" my FB comment, so it's getting noticed by people. Hope the same is true for others who are posting and/or tweeting.

Tom


----------



## USDave

*Stroke of genius*

QUOTE=JenMuse;1710957]Sent a tweet. What we need on twitter is a consistent hashtag. I used #devalued as that is how the OS rate change makes me feel.

If you tweet to @HiltonGrandVac try to use the same hashtag.

My tweet: @HiltonGrandVac I was planning to use Open Season for a fall vacation; the 2015 100% increase means I'll stay elsewhere or home. #devalued[/QUOTE]

Fabulous idea, I sent 3 tweets today of course only got one response! 

I'm going to take on the #devalued because you are 100% right I feel devalued too!


----------



## SMHarman

You should combine those to a single specific tag 
#HGVCdevalued.


----------



## GeorgeJ.

mtm65 said:


> Hi Judy, is Kim Kreiger no longer with Hilton or just no longer involved with this issue?  If he is not with Hilton, what happened?



I had the same question....is Kim Kreiger no longer with HGVC?


----------



## JenMuse

Interesting twitter reply today: "Be sure to check our Facebook page tonight for an announcement we think you'll like"

and a link to their facebook.

WTF makes corporations think that facebook is the platform to announce changes?


----------



## USDave

I agree it really shouldn't be the place. 

So there are two possibilities it is about this issue and they have decided to listen to our pressure.

Or it is about something totally different So I was thinking......


Either way lets flood Twitter and Facebook with our views RIGHT NOW so people can't miss it when they get sent that way! 

#HGVCdevalued


----------



## TTom

Interesting that I ran across this information thanks to you guys. Guess I am not following HGVC enough, either on Twitter or FB. Will be anxious to see the "good news."

Tom


----------



## Intheknow

Hot off of Facebook...great news from HGV!

2015 promises to be a great year to be in the Club, with a world of vacation possibilities awaiting discovery!  Visit ClubTraveler.com for the latest Club news, Member memories and travel inspirations.  Look for announcements of new resorts and programs on the horizon, and enjoy all your favorite destinations and perks too (notably, the rates for the popular last-minute Open Season reservation privilege for Club Members will remain unchanged for the rest of 2015!).  Happy Vacationing to All!


----------



## Great3

*I finally took a look at their facebook page....*

I finally decided to take a look at their facebook page, and I see the following posted by HGVC:

2015 promises to be a great year to be in the Club, with a world of vacation possibilities awaiting discovery! Visit http://www.ClubTraveler.com for the latest Club news, Member memories and travel inspirations. Look for announcements of new resorts and programs on the horizon, *and enjoy all your favorite destinations and perks too (notably, the rates for the popular last-minute Open Season reservation privilege for Club Members will remain unchanged for the rest of 2015!). *Happy Vacationing to All!

So maybe they will just delay this for a year, and try to double the price once again after this year in 2016.  Or maybe they will re-think and come up with something else in 2016.

Great job guys.  As a new HGVC owner, I was just going to write off Open Season as being a benefit, but maybe for now, I can still use it.

Thanks,
Great3


----------



## TTom

A well deserved pat on the back to those who participated in applying pressure to HGVC to make this happen. I would recommend that we go back and express our thanks for them listening to our concerns and responding to them.

Let's hope next year does not bring the same issue to revisit.

Tom


----------



## USDave

*Oh yeah! oh yeah!*

Looks like it worked. Well done to HGVC for listening. Thank you Barbie Rinks for showing that you care about member opinion. Lots of organisation would try to continue to get away with it. 

But well done to everyone who spoke up and did not sit in the stand in the stands it is down to you that they reversed the decision.

Tamaradarann deserves credit for flagging this issue and I was was determined to get something done about it rather than just moaning. So we did it. We gave this a sense of purpose and MADE it happen.

*WE TOOK ACTION WE STOOD TOGETHER AND WE WERE HEARD!*

You were part of a movement that worked and achieved its goal. There were a few doubters along the way saying "if you aren't happy sell up or big companies will steam roll you so don't bother trying" We tried and succeeded! So don't let it be said it can't be done with a combined will, most things are achievable. 

I know one contributor said that Timeshare owners very rarely get successes against the mighty organisations but Hilton listened so we can add this to the list.


----------



## USDave

I have emailed Barbie to say Thank You.


Here are her details to join in! Credit were it is due!


Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director - Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835
brinks@hgvc.com


----------



## TTom

I posted a comment to the FB announcement, including specific mention (and thanks) to Barbie.

Tom

P.S. Also tweeted @HiltonGrandVacations to thank them for listening.


----------



## USDave

Great Tom,

You played a big part, so well done and thanks to you


----------



## pedro47

To all Hilton owners who played a role. Hats Off To All.


----------



## nlehvac

TTom said:


> I posted a comment to the FB announcement, including specific mention (and thanks) to Barbie.
> 
> Tom



Then how come I can't see it? Or do folks who can actually sign in see more stuff than us non-members?


----------



## USDave

Hi Nlehvac,

They posted on Facebook and tweet us if you had tweeted them and then Barbie had kindly emailed her as I had been in contact. I have posted the text and link earlier as did Great3 I believe it is great news!


----------



## TTom

@Niehvac,

Don't know if you need to sign in to see comments, but there are 12 "likes" and 2 "comments" to the announcement. The comments don't appear unless you click on the Comments link to open the post and its comments.

Tom


----------



## TTom

@HiltonGrandVacations favorited this tweet from me:

@TTomas0v: Kudos to @HiltonGrandVac for listening to member concerns and responding in a positive fashion.

Tom


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Pleased but What in 2016?*

I am very pleased with the decision to keep Open Season Rates the same for 2015, and mentioned it to Barbara Rinks, but what will be change in 2016?


----------



## TTom

My guess would be:

a) they will get out in front of any decision for 2016 and provide earlier and better notice, and
b) they will be at least a little wary of a backlash similar to what just occurred if they attempt to implement something outrageous and unjustified, and
c) we will see a somewhat significant increase in Open Season rates.

I guess the combination of all these factors will determine what, if any, our response will be. We will need to be ready, willing and able to mobilize once again, should we be treated next year the same way we were treated this year. Wouldn't seem like a wise political decision for them.

I'm reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Somehow, I don't think HGVC management is "insane."

Tom


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Raising Open Season Rates in 2016?*

My guess would be:

a) they will get out in front of any decision for 2016 and provide earlier and better notice, and
b) they will be at least a little wary of a backlash similar to what just occurred if they attempt to implement something outrageous and unjustified, and
c) we will see a somewhat significant increase in Open Season rates.

I guess the combination of all these factors will determine what, if any, our response will be. We will need to be ready, willing and able to mobilize once again, should we be treated next year the same way we were treated this year. Wouldn't seem like a wise political decision for them.

I'm reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Somehow, I don't think HGVC management is "insane."

I made it clear to HGVC as I did here at TUG if the inventory comes from what is not reserved during Club Season by owner/members, the rates should be about the same as they are now with no SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.  That will be my position in 2015, 2016 and as long as I own Hilton Timeshares as it was in the end of 2014 when I found out about their ridiculous increases.


----------



## weavershome

Quick question from a rookie member:

Looking at the Open Season tab of the classic booking tool, I see all of the available dates for the given property and room types. 

Above that, there is a graph showing price ranges for weekdays, weekends as well as the three seasons bronze/silver, gold, and platinum. 
(Example: Studio weekday during bronze silver shows $60-$120 and 2 BR premier weekend during Platinum season lists $220-$440)

If I click on a given property availability, it then allows me to select a date range. Then the only option I have is a button that says "confirm dates" but I have not yet seen the price. If I click that "confirm dates" button, am I reserving the unit right then or will that button show me the pricing for the dates and unit I looking at?

Lastly, isn't this whole thread about removing those ranges? 
For Example: Shouldn't that 2BR Premier weekend during Platinum season be one given rate and not $220-$440?


----------



## TTom

Independent of whether clicking the button implies confirming the reservation prior to seeing the price, the posting last night by HGVC implies that the "ranges" should disappear. That having been said, the HGVC website is somewhat "notorious" for being a bit "behind the curve." It is likely that the actual updates to restore the previous functionality will take at least a little time before they are correctly implemented.

While it is of small consolation, HGVC has said that any reservations completed under the new fees will be refunded at check in (if I remember correctly). That info should be somewhere in this thread.

I would call them to discuss this before clicking the button, preferably when you can click immediately if you like what you hear.

Hope this helps!

Tom


----------



## clotheshorse

*Facebook - post a Thank You*

As with others, I sent a message to management.   Unlike many companies, they responded in a positive manner.   I posted a message to Facebook thanking them and encourage others to do the same.    Currently, there are only 11 comments.


----------



## USDave

If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you get you will get what you got before.

Hilton won't increase by 100% next year.

Credit to Barbie for stepping up and correcting the heist


----------



## USDave

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=256eKjULdgQ 


Seem familiar?


----------



## TTom

@USDave, color me skeptical, but I will believe that whan I see it. I would not put it past them to "announce" a 100% increase in March or April, scheduled for implementation in 2016, counting on the fact that the furor will have died down by the time it goes into effect.

It would makes sense for them to spread out the increase over several years, since we all expect things to continue to rise in price, but they may not have the patience for that.

I'm anticipating the need for another "campaign" next year, but I hope I am wrong.

Tom


----------



## USDave

I hear you Tom. I agree with you we have to be vigilant but I think the increases will come over a number of years. 

There is so much revenue generating potential for the resorts if they added 75cents on a beer. At lot of the time people would not bat an eyelid! Or notice. 

Hilton were surprised by the backlash and did the right thing


----------



## Tamaradarann

*On what Basis do raise the Open Season Rates in 2016?*



TTom said:


> @USDave, color me skeptical, but I will believe that whan I see it. I would not put it past them to "announce" a 100% increase in March or April, scheduled for implementation in 2016, counting on the fact that the furor will have died down by the time it goes into effect.
> 
> It would makes sense for them to spread out the increase over several years, since we all expect things to continue to rise in price, but they may not have the patience for that.
> 
> I'm anticipating the need for another "campaign" next year, but I hope I am wrong.
> 
> My thinking right now on 2016 is to ask the question:  On what Basis do they raise the Open Season Rates in 2016.  HGVC's original Basis was that the street market price for hotel stays was justification for the higher rates.  That would be fine for the availability that comes from owner/members depositing points or Hilton Honors or other Perks.  They should be able to rent those rooms at Hilton.com.
> 
> However, if the availability comes from the Club Reservation Inventory that owner/members didn't reserve using their points: A more appropriate Basis would be the additional cost to the resort to operate the room occupied versus empty; i.e.. cleaning, utilities, and supplies.  An owner has already paid the maintenance on that unit and the collective owner/member group chose not to reserve it, but it is still owner/member inventory and we should be able to reserve it during Open Season at a very low cost.


----------



## TTom

Maybe, I am not understanding exactly how the inventory works, but, with my Marco Island unit, I do not have to commit until 30 days out. I can cancel my standing reservation, making an Open Season unit available, and I still have my HGVC points to use for HGVC or RCI reservations.

With my other HGVC unit, I also have my points to use however I choose to use them. While I have paid my maintenance fees for the Bay Club, I can reserve a unit at any other HGVC resort, and I can also move them around from year to year or to use with RCI.

Note that, if I understand the system correctly, I can also use my points to reserve units which are within 30 days, i.e., Open Season units.

I guess I just don't see making a clear distinction between inventory which is not reserved by owners during Club Season and inventory which is the result of "points perks" (except, perhaps, for HH conversions).

What I am trying to say is that I don't see how you can readily identify units which should be available at reduced Open Season rates vs. units in the same time period which would qualify for "hotel rates."


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Club Season Availability*



TTom said:


> Maybe, I am not understanding exactly how the inventory works, but, with my Marco Island unit, I do not have to commit until 30 days out. I can cancel my standing reservation, making an Open Season unit available, and I still have my HGVC points to use for HGVC or RCI reservations.
> 
> With my other HGVC unit, I also have my points to use however I choose to use them. While I have paid my maintenance fees for the Bay Club, I can reserve a unit at any other HGVC resort, and I can also move them around from year to year or to use with RCI.
> 
> Note that, if I understand the system correctly, I can also use my points to reserve units which are within 30 days, i.e., Open Season units.
> 
> I guess I just don't see making a clear distinction between inventory which is not reserved by owners during Club Season and inventory which is the result of "points perks" (except, perhaps, for HH conversions).
> 
> What I am trying to say is that I don't see how you can readily identify units which should be available at reduced Open Season rates vs. units in the same time period which would qualify for "hotel rates."



The system is complicated, but the way I understand the system, the Club Season availability are the units of owner/members that paid their maintenance and did not reserve their unit during the Home Week Reservation Period.   HGVC has already taken units out  of the inventory to compensate for members depositing their points for Hilton Honor or Perks. Owner/Members that still have their points are free to reserve anywhere in the system the inventory that was not yet reserved during the Club Reservation Period.  If you cancel a reservation then the inventory goes back into the system so one more week is available for other owner/members and you have a weeks worth of points to use as you see fit.  When you reserved a unit in RCI HGVC takes a unit out of the system to give to RCI, and you have used up some of your points.  Of course, there are owner/members that borrow from a future year, others that deposit or rescue from one year to the next and others that leave their points unused and lost; the system is big enough with enough left over inventory to compensate for any of those becoming an issue.  

Therefore, units that are not reserved during Club Reservation Period and then become OPen Season should be available to owner/members at the current rates.  Units that HGVC has taken out of the pool for Hilton Honors Conversions and other Perks, etc. should be available to HGVC to rent on Hilton.com at Market rate, or if they chose on Open Season at a small discount to members.


----------



## letsgosteelers

Since we were successful in stopping the 100% increase, how about a campaign to rollback the HHpoint increases and levels that were implemented....yet another case of being devalued.


----------



## USDave

It still is great news that HGVC saw sense!


----------



## whatsburning

I just stumbled onto this thread and have/did not do anything to help this cause... Is it too late to add my voice, hearing that all of your efforts have already made a difference? Would it keep the "pressure" on by putting my two cents in?


----------



## TTom

Hilton has already responded positively to our campaign. No additional pressure is necessary at this time. If you wanted to weigh in, you could acknowledge their positive response. The same way they deserved pressure to act, they deserve credit for their actions, so that they know we care.

What we will need is continued vigilance, since it is likely that this scenario could be repeated next year.

Tom


----------



## GeorgeJ.

Tamaradarann said:


> My guess would be:
> 
> a) they will get out in front of any decision for 2016 and provide earlier and better notice, and
> b) they will be at least a little wary of a backlash similar to what just occurred if they attempt to implement something outrageous and unjustified, and
> c) we will see a somewhat significant increase in Open Season rates.
> 
> I guess the combination of all these factors will determine what, if any, our response will be. We will need to be ready, willing and able to mobilize once again, should we be treated next year the same way we were treated this year. Wouldn't seem like a wise political decision for them.
> 
> I'm reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Somehow, I don't think HGVC management is "insane."
> 
> I made it clear to HGVC as I did here at TUG if the inventory comes from what is not reserved during Club Season by owner/members, the rates should be about the same as they are now with no SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.  That will be my position in 2015, 2016 and as long as I own Hilton Timeshares as it was in the end of 2014 when I found out about their ridiculous increases.



That is exactly how I feel on this subject....if the inventory is coming from us, then there should be no huge rate increases; WE ARE THE OWNERS, HGVC is just the management company...


----------



## jestme

It has been weeks now since they announced the prices will stay the same for the whole year, but the "Classic" website still has the 2015 ranges of rates as before their announcement" . How long should it take to put last years rates back?


----------



## TTom

HGVC has not shown themselves to be the most technology-savvy web presence. I don't see anything wrong or amiss with asking them (either on the phone or on social media) when they will get things updated.

Tom


----------



## GTLINZ

I wonder if the prices are currently where they are going to stay ... booking a studio on a weekend we want in Feb at I-Drive is still $120 a night - which is hardly the bargain it was a few years ago. We will watch it, but we decided to book at Marriott Grand Vista down the street for just a few dollars more and build some points.... (and a golf course right there).

We really used to use open season a LOT -and gold season still seems somewhat reasonable - but we will be using other options if it stays this high.  Open season was attractive to us because we like to stay 2 nights and then visit relatives and friends in Tampa, the Villages, and Clearwater.  I really loved this part of our ownership - and it is a shame to see them make this so much less attractive to owners.  And we tended to spend money at the restaurant/bar - so they probably underestimate some of that lost income.


----------



## Dojan123

Agree. I am starting to book for a few dollars more and get points with the other chains like Marriott.


----------



## MattnTricia

I just picked up 2 additional 7000 pt affiliate resales in the last month. 

I for one am ecstatic that HGVC is holding off on this massive change. 

 I probably wouldn't have gone out of my way to write a letter had the sample not been posted as I am not very creative and had always thought that in situations like these letters and complaints never would do any good. I was sure wrong. 

Thanks everyone who participated in this campaign to make HGVC treat us fairly.


----------



## nlehvac

*We had [influential] help*

Just got back from a week at Fiesta Americana in Cabo and went to an owners update. Because they work with HGVC so closely, I of course brought up the open season "uprising." To quote him, "we were part of that uprising." They were quite upset, because it affected their owners wanting to exchange into HGVC, which has been a major selling point for them. Was their pressure what did it? Was the owner outrage more important? Was it getting hit from 2 sides that did it? Who knows. But it will be interesting going forward. Maybe if something like this comes up again, I can contact him for inside info from the FA side!


----------



## letsgosteelers

Somehow I think the joke is on us.  

You notice they have just played lipservice saying they will credit the fees which is only obvious to those here on the forum.  If other owners make reservations and don't know about this fee increase I'm sure they will happily take their money and not say a word.

If they really meant what they said they would have changed the fees in the system.


----------



## USDave

So back in 2015 - HGVC Tried to hike the Open Season rates astronomically 100% plus and break a part of our membership. After seeing a post about this I started a campaign that had hundreds of people to action.

This was through calm, professional and polite relentless objection to these changes. Hundreds of Tuggers tweeted HGVC, posted on Facebook and emailed regarding what I described as an Open Season Heist.

HGVC took action and reversed this decision which was a major achievement and announced that they would reverse the changes.

So I went to add on 2 days to a points reservation but amongst the rates was 2 nights at Parc Soleil for $598!!!! for a 2 bed unit. I expect there to be small increases but this again is scandalous and HGVC have clearly hoped why we weren't looking that would seek to take advantage......

I had asked Barbara Rinks for a breakdown of the increases in the last few years and got an email saying most increases have been 2.5 to 3.5%..........I don't believe this and have asked for a further breakdown. I believe it was approx $270 for 2 nights in a 2 bed unit in Pac Soleil in 2015 and now its $598!!!!!

We are fighting for a principle - will the cost of those 2 days bankrupt me?....that is not the point.  Whether you have used Open Season in the past you may in the future or your children may if they inherit it. So get involved. 

So I urge you all again to tweet HGVC and Hilton
Post comments on the HGVC Facebook wall
and email Barbara asking for an understanding, facts and ACTION to stop the rip off

Who is up for the challenge again?

Barbara Rinks
Sr. Director - Owner and Club Services
________________________________
T 407-722-3198 | F 407-722-3177
6355 MetroWest Blvd., Suite 180
Orlando, FL 32835
brinks@hgvc.com













USDave said:


> Hi,
> 
> As you may be aware. HGVC have announced a new variable price hike to the Open Season rates by 100% from 2014 to 2015 even after a considerable increase in 2014. The rates are allocated with a massive price bracket without any explanation or justication to allow anyone to understand in advance what the rate may be, after all I thought that is what HGVC had silver, gold and platinum for! So there was clarity for us all. This is a major change to the system. Please take a minute to read, understand and take action.
> 
> I have added another post with a sample letter on this thread if you need a time saver.
> 
> Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change to double the rates. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks.
> 
> I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it!
> 
> I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton.
> 
> I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!
> 
> So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system.
> 
> CALL TO ACTION Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.


----------



## alwysonvac

USDave said:


> So I went to add on 2 days to a points reservation but amongst the rates was *2 nights at Parc Soleil for $598!!!*! for a 2 bed unit. I expect there to be small increases but this again is scandalous and HGVC have clearly hoped why we weren't looking that would seek to take advantage......



That’s probably due to the ridiculous unit type permutations at Parc Soleil. 

Unlike the other Orlando resorts (SeaWorld and Tuscany) which only offer a single standard category per unit size, Parc Soleil has higher level categories for each unit size with increasing cost (costing HGVC members either more points or more cash). It’s basically a ripoff so I would make sure you book the standard two bedroom at the Orlando resorts if you want the better deal.

A “*standard*” two bedroom in Platinum Season during Open Season, will cost you the following plus tax:

In 2015, $145 per night for Monday - Thursday and $170 per night for Friday - Saturday 
In 2018, $185 per night for Monday - Thursday and $211 per night for Friday - Saturday

*2018 OPEN SEASON RATES for Orlando
*


​*2015 OPEN SEASON RATES *


----------



## Jason245

Unfortunately,  I don't think they will lower any fees.. they are a public company and want to show revenue growth. ..that being said a 2br normal is rentable for equivalent of around 19 cents a point. ..which when looked at that way isn't terrible. . It just isn't a screaming bargain. .

(My mf at bay club run mid 20s a point so I still end up ahead paying cash vs using points ). 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## USDave

alwysonvac said:


> That’s probably due to the ridiculous unit type permutations at Parc Soleil.
> 
> Unlike the other Orlando resorts (SeaWorld and Tuscany) which only offer a single standard category per unit size, Parc Soleil has higher level categories for each unit size with increasing cost (costing HGVC members either more points or more cash). It’s basically a ripoff so I would make sure you book the standard two bedroom at the Orlando resorts if you want the better deal.
> 
> A “*standard*” two bedroom in Platinum Season during Open Season, will cost you the following plus tax:
> 
> In 2015, $145 per night for Monday - Thursday and $170 per night for Friday - Saturday
> In 2018, $185 per night for Monday - Thursday and $211 per night for Friday - Saturday
> 
> *2018 OPEN SEASON RATES for Orlando
> *
> View attachment 6458​*2015 OPEN SEASON RATES *
> 
> View attachment 6460​




That is a very good point and is an extreme example and the cost can't be justified. so really need to keep on at them to avoid these hikes!


----------



## USDave

Jason245 said:


> Unfortunately,  I don't think they will lower any fees.. they are a public company and want to show revenue growth. ..that being said a 2br normal is rentable for equivalent of around 19 cents a point. ..which when looked at that way isn't terrible. . It just isn't a screaming bargain. .
> 
> (My mf at bay club run mid 20s a point so I still end up ahead paying cash vs using points ).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



But Jason - that is what people said in 2015 that they wouldn't back down or change it but that is exactly what they did.......the key is public pressure in an age of social media companies have to react but it isn't hidden any longer.


----------



## alwysonvac

USDave said:


> That is a very good point and is an extreme example and the cost can't be justified. so really need to keep on at them to avoid these hikes!



JMHO... I suggest starting a new thread with a link to this old 2015 thread otherwise this new 2018 charge will simply get lost since it’s buried on page 7 of this 2015 cause. 

It will also be helpful to clearly state your case (expected outcome and why).


----------



## Panina

Yes, they backed down prior but quickly went back up in price thinking we did not notice. 

They will continue raising rates as long as the customers pay these amounts, supply and demand.

Wheras the  open season benefit is not what it was originally, this shows that a system can change at any time.  For those who purchased to get the great open season rates disapointment is real.

Still think buy exactly where and when you want to travel even in a system so if things change you are still happy.


----------



## Tamaradarann

alwysonvac said:


> JMHO... I suggest starting a new thread with a link to this old 2015 thread otherwise this new 2018 charge will simply get lost since it’s buried on page 7 of this 2015 cause.
> 
> It will also be helpful to clearly state your case (expected outcome and why).



THIS MAY BE A WEBSITE MISTAKE:  Last December I went on line to add 2 nights via Open Season adjacent to an existing reservation and saw some prices extremely higher for some nights in the same resort than others.  I called the call center and the first representative I spoke to couldn't explain.  I called up again and the call center representative recognized the problem and then let me book the nights at the published rates.  It was a mistake and the call center representative recognized and handled the problem appropriately.  She also contacted the IT people to correct the website.


----------



## alwysonvac

If it’s a website problem, 6 months is a long time for the HGVC website to be charging members incorrect rates


----------



## Tamaradarann

alwysonvac said:


> If it’s a website problem, 6 months is a long time for the HGVC website to be charging members incorrect rates



The mistake wasn't a "website problem"  it was a particular room type in the Grand Islander that had the wrong open season dollar amount for that room stay.  The rest of the open season rates were fine.  I never checked back to see if they fixed it or was it a recurring problem.

As far as the time for HGVC to fix website problems.  I reported a problem to them last spring about extending stays beyond 26 days.  The problem still exists.  When I called the call center I got it extended but the representative stated that others had no problem extending vacations beyond 26 days. Then I started to e-mail.  It took 3 e-mails  before I got to someone at HGVC who understood the problem and didn't respond with an answer like you can't extend a vacation for that long, or that the website has a problem with extending stays on line so you need to do it by calling in.  

They reported yesterday that they are working on the problem and hope to have it fixed next week.  I will see the next time I need to extend a vacation beyond 26 days.


----------



## brp

Panina said:


> Still think buy exactly where and when you want to travel even in a system so if things change you are still happy.



Respectfully disagree. While anything *could* change, I don't think that being able to book other resorts will change any time soon. Still happy to own Vegas points and use them in Hawai'i 

And the "when" is not relevant since points are just points.

Cheers.


----------



## Talent312

I didn't buy-in for the OS "benefit." I used it 1x in 11 years.
If I'm paying cash, I compare HGVC to other hotel rooms +"suites."
Often, I find other Hilton properties or even Marriotts w-better deals.

.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Talent312 said:


> I didn't buy-in for the OS "benefit." I used it 1x in 11 years.
> If I'm paying cash, I compare HGVC to other hotel rooms +"suites."
> Often, I find other Hilton properties or even Marriotts w-better deals.
> 
> .



Thats the same for me.  Since my wife and are still working, there only a limited number of HGVC locations we would book on short notice for open season anyways.  In any event once i am paying cash, i will place some value on the daily housekeeping and loyalty points i could earn staying at a hotel.


----------



## chriskre

HGVC has lost me as an OS customer with their games since 2015.
I have way too many options in RCI, SFX and II to bother with this anymore.
I get an AC for pretty much anything I throw into II these days and a full week
at a comparable competitor suits me just fine over just 2 over priced OS nights.

I'm sorry to see the benefit go, but apparently they are not, so they can keep it.
I am sad to see it gone with the SW Florida properties but then again I can still
use my points in the club as I originally intended.  

So goes the never ending game of developer devaluation of our products.
Apparently they could care less if they have cheer leaders or not.
I'll certainly share my disdain in the hot tub with anyone who will listen.


----------



## Tamaradarann

chriskre said:


> HGVC has lost me as an OS customer with their games since 2015.
> I have way too many options in RCI, SFX and II to bother with this anymore.
> I get an AC for pretty much anything I throw into II these days and a full week
> at a comparable competitor suits me just fine over just 2 over priced OS nights.
> 
> I'm sorry to see the benefit go, but apparently they are not, so they can keep it.
> I am sad to see it gone with the SW Florida properties but then again I can still
> use my points in the club as I originally intended.
> 
> So goes the never ending game of developer devaluation of our products.
> Apparently they could care less if they have cheer leaders or not.
> I'll certainly share my disdain in the hot tub with anyone who will listen.



I just checked the website and I saw the 3 nights in a 1 BR at the Grand Islander in Honolulu for about $400.  That certainly didn't seem like a very high rate.  Like I stated before I believe it was an error in the website for that particular stay that was cited.

As far as being able to get an RCI, SFX and II stay for a full week; you can get those weeks where and when and how far out do you need to book them?   I will offer the following example where Open Season can be very useful.  Do to a pending snow storm that was coming to NYC in a few days, I wanted to change my flight to Honolulu this past winter to leave 2 days earlier.  Therefore, I needed 2 extra nights in Honolulu to extend my stay there. Using Open Season I found 2 nights at the Grand Islander in a 1 BR for $140/night which worked out great since we don't get a car and didn't need an additional cab ride to get from the Grand Islander to the Lagoon Tower for the rest of our stay.   With RCI, SFX or II you either can't do that or need a great deal of luck.


----------



## chriskre

Tamaradarann said:


> I just checked the website and I saw the 3 nights in a 1 BR at the Grand Islander in Honolulu for about $400.  That certainly didn't seem like a very high rate.  Like I stated before I believe it was an error in the website for that particular stay that was cited.
> 
> As far as being able to get an RCI, SFX and II stay for a full week; you can get those weeks where and when and how far out do you need to book them?   I will offer the following example where Open Season can be very useful.  Do to a pending snow storm that was coming to NYC in a few days, I wanted to change my flight to Honolulu this past winter to leave 2 days earlier.  Therefore, I needed 2 extra nights in Honolulu to extend my stay there. Using Open Season I found 2 nights at the Grand Islander in a 1 BR for $140/night which worked out great since we don't get a car and didn't need an additional cab ride to get from the Grand Islander to the Lagoon Tower for the rest of our stay.   With RCI, SFX or II you either can't do that or need a great deal of luck.



Awesome!   
I can totally see that working in your favor. 
I live in Florida though so my options are endless but it is definitely nice to have OS to fall back on.  
I do check it on occasion but for my needs doing a flex change into one of the just as nice Marriott, Starwood, Bluegreen or any other Orlando resorts now comes out ahead for me.   Just so much last minute developers inventory thrown in last minute I would rather sprawl out and take my time playing with a full week than rushing to get out by the OS deadline.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PigsDad

I still use Open Season for Valdoro during ski season.  My work schedule is quite flexible, so if I see a few days open up and I am feeling like it, I will grab it for a mini ski vaca for myself.  Even though it used to be a great deal ($80/night for a 1BR mid-week), I still find value in the program, but now mostly only for studios.

Kurt


----------



## Tamaradarann

chriskre said:


> Awesome!
> I can totally see that working in your favor.
> I live in Florida though so my options are endless but it is definitely nice to have OS to fall back on.
> I do check it on occasion but for my needs doing a flex change into one of the just as nice Marriott, Starwood, Bluegreen or any other Orlando resorts now comes out ahead for me.   Just so much last minute developers inventory thrown in last minute I would rather sprawl out and take my time playing with a full week than rushing to get out by the OS deadline.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We don't use Open Season for a long vacation since it is usually never available in Honolulu where we love to go for that long.  Being in Florida you don't need to worry about airfare to get to many resorts you can get a great deal almost anytime and drive to a vacation.  If I was in Florida the place that I would use open season would be the HGVC in Miami Beach.  As in Honolulu Open Season is never available for a long stay but you can get a few night here and there and with your location you to drive there easily.


----------



## brp

Tamaradarann said:


> We don't use Open Season for a long vacation since it is usually never available in Honolulu where we love to go for that long.



We're Hawai'i Island people, and things are readily available there, at very good rates. For example, we wanted to go first weekend of June we could pay $443 at bay Club, and even only at KL. Definitely seems a great deal to me.

Cheers.


----------



## chriskre

Tamaradarann said:


> We don't use Open Season for a long vacation since it is usually never available in Honolulu where we love to go for that long.  Being in Florida you don't need to worry about airfare to get to many resorts you can get a great deal almost anytime and drive to a vacation.  If I was in Florida the place that I would use open season would be the HGVC in Miami Beach.  As in Honolulu Open Season is never available for a long stay but you can get a few night here and there and with your location you to drive there easily.



I live in Downtown Miami so there isn't much appeal for me to stay on South Beach.
I much prefer Marco Island but have just been using my HGVC points there to stay.
Haven't done an OS on Marco since they made the change.
Probably won't do it any time soon either and Orlando has just too many good options
to throw my good money at.   

I own an awesome multi week trader, so my II exchanges
beat OS rates for the most part unless I just needed 2 nights which I rarely do.  
It is what it is.  

HGVC giveth and they taketh away and II and RCI gets my money now instead.
I can slum it at a Marriott or Starwood.  
I went to Hawaii 2 years ago and got my HGVC fix already so I'm good for a long while.
I still get nice value from the club in SW Florida which is really the reason I bought this
to begin with.   OS was just gravy.  I can eat dry toast if necessary.


----------



## chriskre

brp said:


> We're Hawai'i Island people, and things are readily available there, at very good rates. For example, we wanted to go first weekend of June we could pay $443 at bay Club, and even only at KL. Definitely seems a great deal to me.
> 
> Cheers.



You're closer to HI, I gotta fly 11 hours.
It's great that the club can work out for so many of us in so many ways.
And having access to DVC thru the portal is just a nice icing on the cake.


----------



## Sapper

chriskre said:


> You're closer to HI, I gotta fly 11 hours.
> It's great that the club can work out for so many of us in so many ways.
> And having access to DVC thru the portal is just a nice icing on the cake.



As a recent resale purchaser (still waiting for the transfer) into HGVC, I'm curious how much availability (and where) there is into DVC using RCI?


----------



## chriskre

Sapper said:


> As a recent resale purchaser (still waiting for the transfer) into HGVC, I'm curious how much availability (and where) there is into DVC using RCI?



I haven't followed it that closely anymore since I already own DVC, but you should
join TUG so you can see the bulk deposits to RCI from DVC and also sign up for
the alerts.

Definitely set up an ongoing search.  It's your best bet on
getting a DVC although lately it seems it's pretty much mostly SSR.  
Seems the days of the better stuff is being better controlled by DVC and is either 
being kept for the club (as it should be) or rented out by the mouse to max his profits.  
Still if you don't mind SSR and it's actually more desirable now with Disney Springs
in full swing, it's still a nice place to stay.


----------



## GT75

PigsDad said:


> I still use Open Season for Valdoro during ski season.  ....   Even though it used to be a great deal ($80/night for a 1BR mid-week), I still find value in the program,



I agree with you Kurt.    I think that OS for the mountain resorts (Valdoro and Park City) is still a pretty good deal.    The only time that I used OS was at Sunrise Lodge last year.     I needed some more rooms for a couple of nights.    I wanted to use open season at Valdoro this year, but I booked with points instead to get the room (one night wasn’t in OS yet).

I certainly wish that I lived as close to Valdoro as you do.     Then I would wait for OS and snow too.


----------



## Sapper

chriskre said:


> I haven't followed it that closely anymore since I already own DVC, but you should
> join TUG so you can see the bulk deposits to RCI from DVC and also sign up for
> the alerts.
> 
> Definitely set up an ongoing search.  It's your best bet on
> getting a DVC although lately it seems it's pretty much mostly SSR.
> Seems the days of the better stuff is being better controlled by DVC and is either
> being kept for the club (as it should be) or rented out by the mouse to max his profits.
> Still if you don't mind SSR and it's actually more desirable now with Disney Springs
> in full swing, it's still a nice place to stay.



Is it showing that I'm not a member here?

I'll have to figure out how to sign up for the alerts, thank you for the idea. 

I've read that most of what DVC turns over to RCI is one bed units, just was not sure availability of them. Thanks.


----------



## brp

Sapper said:


> I've read that most of what DVC turns over to RCI is one bed units, just was not sure availability of them. Thanks.



What I have read (and I don't recall if it was here or on a DVC board that I read) is that it is generally the less desirable places that get turned over as the members book the more desirable places. I can't confirm this since we also own DVC, but I can say that even member bookings at the more desirable places are getting harder, so this reasonable.

Cheers.


----------



## chriskre

Sapper said:


> Is it showing that I'm not a member here?
> 
> I'll have to figure out how to sign up for the alerts, thank you for the idea.
> 
> I've read that most of what DVC turns over to RCI is one bed units, just was not sure availability of them. Thanks.



It shows you are a member but I guess you aren't seeing the sighting forum.
You can sign up for it and get notifications when there is something interesting deposited.


----------



## chriskre

brp said:


> What I have read (and I don't recall if it was here or on a DVC board that I read) is that it is generally the less desirable places that get turned over as the members book the more desirable places. I can't confirm this since we also own DVC, but I can say that even member bookings at the more desirable places are getting harder, so this reasonable.
> 
> Cheers.



Yes there was enough noise made about all the ebay rentals that someone in DVC tightened the purse strings a tad.
There is also the effect of the mouse selling tons of points in the smaller resorts like Poly for those grand villas
that are sitting empty which is really tightening inventory on the studios at Poly and now Boulder Creek.

There are some threads on Mouseowners about it and how the points manipulation is really doing a number on
studio availability.   Honestly I have to say that it has not affected me yet because I tend to be a planner with
my DVC and have been pretty lucky getting what I want with my 11-7 month booking windows.  I think where
people are complaining is that they are mega renting and of course most people want to rent studios cause they
are cheap and they want to cram everyone into 200 sq ft.

Those rentals are also competing with the mouse doing his own renting.   Honestly these spec renters are really
working their tails off to get those $17-$18 a point that they were used to but with so many points brokers why
bother with them.   I wouldn't if I was a renter.  The points brokers make it just way too easy for a buyer.
Shoot I was shocked at the great ressies my points broker got for my buyers.  I never imagined that you could
get such nice ressies with very few months notice and these are not even high holidays, just summer break.

I say all this to say, don't believe everything you hear.  Lots of blah blah blah about not much. 
If these people would buy to use and plan like necessary there wouldn't be all this bad PR. 
It's just that people don't want to plan.  They want it done for them.  Well that's great, then don't,
buy a timeshare and just rent from the mouse at rack rates.  I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.


----------



## Tamaradarann

chriskre said:


> Yes there was enough noise made about all the ebay rentals that someone in DVC tightened the purse strings a tad.
> There is also the effect of the mouse selling tons of points in the smaller resorts like Poly for those grand villas
> that are sitting empty which is really tightening inventory on the studios at Poly and now Boulder Creek.
> 
> There are some threads on Mouseowners about it and how the points manipulation is really doing a number on
> studio availability.   Honestly I have to say that it has not affected me yet because I tend to be a planner with
> my DVC and have been pretty lucky getting what I want with my 11-7 month booking windows.  I think where
> people are complaining is that they are mega renting and of course most people want to rent studios cause they
> are cheap and they want to cram everyone into 200 sq ft.
> 
> Those rentals are also competing with the mouse doing his own renting.   Honestly these spec renters are really
> working their tails off to get those $17-$18 a point that they were used to but with so many points brokers why
> bother with them.   I wouldn't if I was a renter.  The points brokers make it just way too easy for a buyer.
> Shoot I was shocked at the great ressies my points broker got for my buyers.  I never imagined that you could
> get such nice ressies with very few months notice and these are not even high holidays, just summer break.
> 
> I say all this to say, don't believe everything you hear.  Lots of blah blah blah about not much.
> If these people would buy to use and plan like necessary there wouldn't be all this bad PR.
> It's just that people don't want to plan.  They want it done for them.  Well that's great, then don't,
> buy a timeshare and just rent from the mouse at rack rates.  I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.



This Tread was starting to discuss "OPEN SEASON" rate increases at HGVC, not availability at DVC.  In December of 2014 I recognized that HGVC suddenly doubled the open season rates when I tried to book January 1&2 in a 1 BR Plus at the Hokulani.  At the time I remember that Thursday and Friday night Platinum Season should have been $305 (I was an Elite Plus member at the time so I did get a 15% discount) but the website quoted almost $600.  Due to the comments that members made to HGVC both by phone and by e-mail the open season rate increases were rescinded.  I believe there have been some modest increases since that time.  However, I don't believe that the great increase that was reported that started this thread were intentional by HGVC.  I believe it was a mistake.


----------



## chriskre

Tamaradarann said:


> This Tread was starting to discuss "OPEN SEASON" rate increases at HGVC, not availability at DVC.  In December of 2014 I recognized that HGVC suddenly doubled the open season rates when I tried to book January 1&2 in a 1 BR Plus at the Hokulani.  At the time I remember that Thursday and Friday night Platinum Season should have been $305 (I was an Elite Plus member at the time so I did get a 15% discount) but the website quoted almost $600.  Due to the comments that members made to HGVC both by phone and by e-mail the open season rate increases were rescinded.  I believe there have been some modest increases since that time.  However, I don't believe that the great increase that was reported that started this thread were intentional by HGVC.  I believe it was a mistake.




True and I did get off topic.  My bad.
I am sure you are correct that HGVC didn't do it on purpose but come on, how incompetent
can your IT team be that they can't fix the website for a year after bringing it to their attention.  
I know there are lots of bugs in these big websites, I sell online for a living so live with a ton of glitches
that just don't seem to ever be able to get fixed by my HUGE marketplace.  
Usually though it's rarely in the favor of the client but more in favor of the big system that can't "find and fix" the bug.  
Call me a skeptic but if you can't do your job and fix the code then you conveniently aren't trying hard enough or
hiring the wrong people in some far off land and you need to bring the work back to the US.  

I love HGVC, it still works great for me but OS no longer does.  No skin off my back, trust me.
That's why I don't over commit to any one system.  These developers just can't be trusted
to do the right thing 80% of the time let alone 100% of the time.  
Whether intentional or not, things just keep changing and not always for the good. 
I still have 8 timeshares so obviously I'm still in for the long haul
and I just bought my most recent one 3 years ago.


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