# $250 fee for smoking in WKORV unit



## DeniseM (May 18, 2011)

Recently, a Tugger called and made a reservation for a guest, and the Rep. spontanously told them that if their guest smoked in the unit, the $250 fee would be charged to the OWNER.  

I know that this fee is stated on the confirmation, but wouldn't the fee be charged to the guest's credit card on file - not the owner?  

BTW, the said guest does not smoke, and the owner didn't solicit this info., so I'm not sure if this is new, or if the Rep. just got creative, or why he popped out with it, but I'm having a hard time believing it's true.

Does anyone have the WKORV Mgrs. email handy?


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## ThreeLittleBirds (May 18, 2011)

Last year, the folks next to us were smoking on the balcony. We were very displeased with our room, and this put us over the edge. My husband called, and security was there in a heartbeat.

They are taking the no smoking rule very seriously, but I'm not sure why the owner would be charged.

It actually worked to our benefit, because they moved our room to a much nicer one as we could still smell residual smoke.


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## LisaRex (May 18, 2011)

When we stayed at WKV a few weeks ago, there was a laminated sign informing us that we'd be charged $250 if we smoked in the room.  

I also believe that they should charge the guest, not the owner.


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## YYJMSP (May 18, 2011)

ThreeLittleBirds said:


> Last year, the folks next to us were smoking on the balcony. We were very displeased with our room, and this put us over the edge. My husband called, and security was there in a heartbeat.
> 
> They are taking the no smoking rule very seriously, but I'm not sure why the owner would be charged.
> 
> It actually worked to our benefit, because they moved our room to a much nicer one as we could still smell residual smoke.



One of our guests last summer had the same problem, and we were told that the smokers were owners (implying a different set of rules applied to non-owners), and they were smoking outside the unit (implying it was only disallowed inside the unit).

We never did get a satisfactory resolution to that issue.


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## DavidnRobin (May 18, 2011)

It is questionable whether smoking should be allowed on the lanais - I sure wish it was not.  I believe DM posted the smoking law for Maui/HI - and I read it as not allowed.  However, iirc, that Resort Management claims that it is allowed (if so equipped).

Here is the text from the WKORV confirmation...
_Smoking Policy   
 Breathe in the fresh air. Westin Vacation Ownership resorts are smoke-free. Guests are asked to refrain from smoking in all enclosed public areas, including the villas. The balcony or lanai of the villa, if so equipped, is a designated smoking area. 

In addition, Westin observes local and state smoking ordinances that may prohibit smoking in some public places._
*****

wtf does "if so equipped" mean?

I would hope that the Guest is charged (and not the Owner).  Not sure how the resort would charge the Owner since there is not mechanism to do so (that would hold up to scutiny).  So I believe the Reservationist did not give appropriate info.

It is listed in all villas as well - but sometimes not very obvious (esp if you are not looking).

It does remind me to add to the Rental Agreement.


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## MON2REY (May 18, 2011)

This is what the confirmation of my reservation this morning stated:


 smoking policy  

 Breathe in the fresh air. The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North features non-smoking villas. While guests are prohibited from smoking inside the villas, smoking is permitted on the balcony or lanai of the villa, if so equipped. Violation of this smoking policy will result in a non-refundable $250 fee. 

In addition, Westin observes local smoking ordinances that may prohibit smoking in some public places.


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## HatTrick (May 18, 2011)

DavidnRobin said:


> The balcony or lanai of the villa, if so equipped, is a designated smoking area.
> 
> *****
> 
> wtf does "if so equipped" mean?



If the villa is equipped with a balcony or lanai, said balcony or lanai is a designated smoking area.


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## DavidnRobin (May 18, 2011)

HatTrick said:


> If the villa is equipped with a balcony or lanai, said balcony or lanai is a designated smoking area.



"...smoking is permitted on the balcony or lanai of the villa, if so equipped."

Not a grammar or sentence structure expert, but 'if so equipped' seems unnecessary - "...smoking is permitted on the balcony or lanai of the villa." would be adequate, as all of the villas have a balcony - even the Juliet balcony on the studio-side is defined as a 'balcony'   (I can just imagine a smoker standing on the 6 inches of the Juliet balcony getting their fix).  If they wanted to differeniate the Juliet balcony from the others - they should state it as so. "Smoking is allowed on lanais and balconies except for the Juliet balconies"

back to the Maui/HI Law... 

_Effective November 16, 2006 smoking is prohibited in all enclosed or partially enclosed areas open to the public in order to ensure a consistent level of basic protections statewide from exposure to secondhand smoke. The term "enclosed or partially enclosed" is defined under the law as any space closed in by a roof or overhang and at least two walls, including, but not limited to, restrooms, lobbies, reception areas, hallways, interior courtyards, patios, covered walkways, bars, hotel and motel rooms, lanais, restaurants, retail service establishments and retail stores. Hotels and motels may designate up to 20 percent of rooms as smoking allowed. Rooms must be on the same floor, contiguous and smoke must not infiltrate into smoke-free areas. _


More like... 'breathe easy - except on the lanai where someones addiction to smoking may interfere with you actually breathing fresh air...'

maybe we could have an Owner vote?


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2011)

I'm an ex-smoker...haven't smoked in almost about 2yrs....But to ban smoking outdoors is a bit extreme...if it bothers you close your windows or doors...The smoker has as much right to stay in that room as you do...I've stayed in TS's where you can almost feel the odors and just nastiness coming from the kitchen next door...the kind of food that just hangs in the air and never leaves, been in elevators with women and man bathed in cologne and perfume to the point i couldn't breath....I propose if we are banning smoking because people don't like the smell, we ban cooking of foods people don't like the smell of...and banning of heavy use of cologne and perfume

Its just as rediculous to ban those two things as ban someone smoking outdoors




DavidnRobin said:


> More like... 'breathe easy - except on the lanai where someones addiction to smoking may interfere with you actually breathing fresh air...'
> 
> maybe we could have an Owner vote?


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## DeniseM (May 18, 2011)

Obviously, strong smelling food is not a health hazard - second hand smoke is.

The lanais are only a few feet apart - if someone is smoking on the next lanai, you get the full effect of their second hand smoke, and nonsmokers cannot enjoy their lanais.

BTW - Hawaii has implemented strict smoking laws, including where you can smoke outside.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Obviously, strong smelling food is not a health hazard - second hand smoke is.
> 
> The lanais are only a few feet apart - if someone is smoking on the next lanai, you get the full effect of their second hand smoke, and nonsmokers cannot enjoy their lanais.



smoke actually breaks down very quickly when exposed to open air...all the second hand smoke studies i've researched(i help with a Non-profit Consumer advocacy group for, vapor producing nicotine products) have been in very confined spaces...comparable to a small car or SUV continuesly over VERY VERY long periods of time...I honestly don't know how far apart the lanais are at WKORV, but anything more then 7 feet...in an open place...2nd hand smoke is just not a concern....all you are experiencing is the smell of the smoke...all of the tar and/or tsna's have long since dropped or become so deluted so as to cause no harm

With all that being said...You should NEVER think that cracking a window in a car keeps your children safe if your a parent...or even that just smoking when they are out of the room is ok....very recently there has been some evidence of what is being coined as 'third hand smoke' the type that attaches itself to clothing, drapes, carpets over long periods of time....If i found that a TS was allowing smoking inside the rooms....i would DEFINATLY take a stand


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## DavidnRobin (May 18, 2011)

This argument is about smoking on balconies (although I'd be very happy to expand into prohibiting smoking outdoors... especially on beaches or in nature).  [added - I am not talking about second-hand smoke as a health hazard - even though it is (fact). tbh, 2nd hand smoke is not a worry to me since I am not forced to work in an enviroment where I have to breath smoke - *it is about the stink*]  ridewithme - respectfully - you are wrong... the health hazard of 2nd hand smoke is a fact - although I am a proponent of nicotine vaporizers for those that need their fix.

If I am on a balcony enjoying the fresh air (and view) - where I spend a lot of time while at WKORV, and the person(s) below me decides to smoke (or worse chain-smoke) - my choice is to put up with it - or go indoors and close the door.  [btw, if they were BBQing on the balcony - I would feel the same way] As I am in a confined space and forced to breath their smoke - tell me who is being violated here?  {let me guess... the smoker who is trying to get their plasma nicotine levels back up?}

btw - look at the ground (any ground where smoking is allowed) - see all the cigarette butts? That (to me) says about everything that needs to be said about smoking and smokers.   It is strange that no smoker would ever admit that they throw their butts onto the ground - yet there they are (all over) - weird...

The only upside of smoking for me personally is that it keeps me employed - the only upside for society is that it helps keep Social Security afloat.

Facts... ~90% of NSCLC (non-small cell lung cancer) is caused by direct and 2nd hand smoke.  NSCLC is the only directly self-induced cancer.  Once a person is diagnosed with NSCLC (usually stage 3b or stage 4 - unless they are lucky) - the median survival time is 6 months, and the last part is akin to smothering to death.  If you have smoked for a long time - your chances of NSCLC are about the same as if you never quit.  In 2030, it is predicted NSCLC will be at epidemic proportions worldwide (ASCO proceedings 2003).

although - there is some good news (just today)...
http://www.gene.com/gene/news/press-releases/display.do?method=detail&id=13427
A friend of mine (and SF Giants Fan) was responsible for bringing MetMab thru Research into Development - he unfortunately passed away due to Lymphoma to soon to see his life's work (and idea) become a reality.


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## pharmgirl (May 18, 2011)

barbeques have many of the same particles, molecules as tobacco smoke

Also microwaving popcorn send some very nasty molecules into the air and is also associated in high amounts with pulmonary disease


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## DavidnRobin (May 18, 2011)

^^^^^ True ^^^^^
there are many, many enviromental hazards (e.g. combustion engine exhast for a start, or how about animal dander?). However, I refuse to have these as distractions to arguments in supporting smokers so-called rights that result in me forced to breath their smoke (and as stated - I could care less about the hazards of 2nd hand smoke argument unless forced to be exposed day in/out).  Heck, we are all going to die anyway... or... My Aunt Sally smoked all of her life and she lived to 90...
{although I did have 2 uncles who smoked for years - then stopped for years - only to die within 7 months of diagnosis of lung cancer}

I confess - it is purely for selfish reasons why I would support a smoking ban on WKORV, WPORV, WKV and WSJ balconies - or anywhere close to me.  Personally I do not care if smokers want to puff their lungs out - go for it - as long as I do not have to smell it, or see the resulting butts as litter on the ground.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2011)

DavidnRobin said:


> I confess - it is purely for selfish reasons why I would support a smoking ban on WKORV, WPORV, WKV and WSJ balconies - or anywhere close to me.  Personally I do not care if smokers want to puff their lungs out - go for it - as long as I do not have to smell it, or see the resulting butts as litter on the ground.



Garbage cans are provided for those that like to waste instead of re-use...just like ashtrays should be provided for smokers...the butts littering the ground is a horrible thing i agree...when i was a smoker and no ash trays were provided i'd use a paper or plastic cup (most often drive thru soft drink cup) with a little liquid in the bottom...its littering weather it be a gum wrapper or a cigarette butt and should be treated as such

I don't like the smell of some types of BBQ, Rib's should be a dry rub not a ketchup sloppy mess...i also am completely disgusted by floral scented perfumes and heavy perfumed 'air fresheners'...i have a brother that seems to be able to smell hot dogs from pickles from three houses down and hates the smell i also know many people who hate the smell of diesel motor smoke from pickup trucks or small german cars....Everyone has something that bothers them from the outside world... 

if we are just going to start banning things based on peoples personal feelings on them....we'll end up with nothing left


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## Cathyb (May 18, 2011)

*The Whaler smoking policy*



DeniseM said:


> Recently, a Tugger called and made a reservation for a guest, and the Rep. spontanously told them that if their guest smoked in the unit, the $250 fee would be charged to the OWNER.
> 
> I know that this fee is stated on the confirmation, but wouldn't the fee be charged to the guest's credit card on file - not the owner?
> 
> ...



FYI, at The Whaler, Kaanapali they have a gruesome policy.  Our daughter smokes   and she not only could NOT smoke on the lanai but also not on the grounds anywhere.  She had to go to the beach or the parking lot near the highway -- which at 10pm at night had me worried at either place.  However I support that policy -- even smoking on the lanai will filter into the unit's drapes, etc., and eventually the unit will stink.


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## jarta (May 18, 2011)

Ride,   ...   "if we are just going to start banning things based on peoples personal feelings on them....we'll end up with nothing left"

Yes, dueling was once a very popular (and honorable) way of settling differences.  And, the only people it hurt (mostly) were the losers of the duels.  When dueling was banned I expect excellent marksmen felt deprived of their God-given right to blow out the brains of anyone who they felt had slighted them.

The smoking battle has been over for years.  Even ze French can no longer smoke in restaurants.  The good old days of fouling the air and littering the landscape with butts are irretrievably gone and never coming back.


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## Sea Six (May 18, 2011)

As long as the resort allows smoking on the lanai, then people have as much right to smoke there as you do to whine about it.  I'd rather hear about what you say or do about people who smoke in NO SMOKING areas, like those who light up anywhere they feel like it (rather than the designated smoking areas) at Disney parks, as an example.


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## ondeadlin (May 18, 2011)

jarta said:


> Yes, dueling was once a very popular (and honorable) way of settling differences.  And, the only people it hurt (mostly) were the losers of the duels.  When dueling was banned I expect excellent marksmen felt deprived of their God-given right to blow out the brains of anyone who they felt had slighted them.



This is awesome.


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## PamMo (May 18, 2011)

I was talking to an owner (smoker) at WKORN who traded into WPORV and hated it there. When I asked why, she said she couldn't smoke ANYWHERE on the property. She said she "was hounded by very aggressive anti-smoking staff" who made her put out her cigarettes even when she went out on the edge of the resort by the golf course. (I kept picturing smokers hiding in the bushes....) So maybe Starwood is getting serious about their No Smoking policy?


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## wilma (May 19, 2011)

PamMo said:


> I was talking to an owner (smoker) at WKORN who traded into WPORV and hated it there. When I asked why, she said she couldn't smoke ANYWHERE on the property. She said she "was hounded by very aggressive anti-smoking staff" who made her put out her cigarettes even when she went out on the edge of the resort by the golf course. (I kept picturing smokers hiding in the bushes....) So maybe Starwood is getting serious about their No Smoking policy?



We had a very different experience at WPORV. The first room we were given this past Feb. when we checked in reeked of smoke in the entire 2 bedroom unit. I refused to stay in the unit but the manager only sent a housekeeper with a fan and some spray.  The housekeeper claimed the previous tenants only smoked on the lanai but it seeped into the room, and they did not have time to properly remove the smoke. I called the manager and said the room needed much more cleaning & airing than the perfume and fan she sent, and demanded a new smoke-free room. She admitted that they had problems with people smoking on the lanais. However, in this unit the people were smoking in the room and a mid-week cleaning should have noticed this problem and reported back to management. Hopefully your friend visited recently and they are getting tough!


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## LisaRex (May 19, 2011)

PamMo said:


> So maybe Starwood is getting serious about their No Smoking policy?



They may be getting serious about it because of increasing insurance rates.    No smoking = less chance of a fire.


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## jarta (May 19, 2011)

PamMo,   ...   "She said she "was hounded by very aggressive anti-smoking staff" who made her put out her cigarettes even when she went out on the edge of the resort by the golf course. (I kept picturing smokers hiding in the bushes....) So maybe Starwood is getting serious about their No Smoking policy?"

Starwood only manages resorts.  It has influence on, but cannot control the actions of, HOA board members.  The boundaries of the non-smoking areas are a matter for HOA board discretion.  At most Starwood-managed resorts, smoking is allowed on balconies and patios.

However, the HOA board (of any timeshare resort) is given the right to make policy for usage of the resort and an individual HOA board can expand or contract the policy and determine the degree of emphasis to be given by management in enforcing the policy.  It's not one size (or policy) must fit all.

My conclusions: If you intend to smoke, ask about the resort's HOA policy before reserving and either obey the resort rules when you arrive or stay away.

Finally, if smoking is permitted on the balconies and patios, don't whine.  Get used to it.  (Or, if you don't like that policy, lobby management to suggest to the HOA board to change it.)


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## Passepartout (May 19, 2011)

LisaRex said:


> They may be getting serious about it because of increasing insurance rates.    No smoking = less chance of a fire.



Actually, I think this is all a 'smoke screen'. There are dozens of reasons to disallow smoking on premises not owned by the addicted smoker. Fire is one. Having to hire/pay personnel to pick up butts, buying/cleaning/maintaining ashtrays. More frequent replacement of furnishings/textiles. 

I see it all the time. Smokers seem to feel some discrimination against themselves. IMO nothing is further from the truth. Smokers- if not their inherent odor- are most welcome everywhere. Just not the smoke. Anybody ever notice that smokers ALWAYS hold the burning object DOWNWIND. THEY don't want the smoke in their face any more than a nonsmoker does. They don't pick up butts, because they don't want to touch the nasty things either. They dump ashtrays, not proudly in receptacles in plain sight but surreptitiously open the car door and dump it under the car hoping no one will see them do it. Or flip the burning butt out an open window driving down the road- little thinking that the cellulose filter has a half-life of decades.

My personal opinion is that a $250 cleaning fee is about right- but it should be levied against the smoker, not the owner who rents his/her interval to someone, not knowing of the renter's addiction. 

Soap box mode <off>.

Jim Ricks


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## PamMo (May 19, 2011)

*So, do we know if the $250 charge to owners is for real?*

Jarta, you make a very good point. These days, if you smoke, you should definitely understand the smoking policy of the resort before you check in. And then graciously follow the rules. (No whining.) If you object to the existing policy, take it up with the resort HOA - don't be rude to other guests or staff.

So, is the $250 charge to owners for real? When someone rents a unit from me, I'm going to make darn sure they know/agree to the smoking policy, if I'm going to be charged if they light up! (Do I need to add a smoke damage deposit to my contracts now?  ) I also think it's nuts to have a non-smoking policy in the rooms and grounds - but allow smoking on the lanais. Heavy smokers on a lanai will waft smoke into their own villa, and affect other guests' enjoyment of their lanais (and go through open windows). How is that any better than someone smoking on the grounds?


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

PamMo said:


> I also think it's nuts to have a non-smoking policy in the rooms and grounds - but allow smoking on the lanais. Heavy smokers on a lanai will waft smoke into their own villa, and affect other guests' enjoyment of their lanais (and go through open windows). How is that any better than someone smoking on the grounds?



I think more often then not if you find a no smoking policy on the grounds, it will also be for the lanais...But in those cases where its not...i'd think a no smoking policy on the grounds would be to control litter more then the smell of smoke, very few people carry pocket ashtrays like i used to(the one i had was neat, it folded up into itself to trap ash and butts and had a carbon filter so my pocket didn't end up smelling like an old cigarette) they tend to drop cigarettes on the ground and litter its not like that with people smoking in their homes or porches ....Unless someone is completely inconsiderate, a person smoking on a porch or in a lanais will be using an ashtray and won't be flicking cigarettes 'overboard' so to speak.....

As for the 'affect other guests enjoyment of their lanais' thats just silly...i've stayed at TS's where their were BBQ's right on the rear porches...less then a couple feet from the neighbors porch...sitting ANYWHERE in the room you could smell the chared meat(why anyone cooks past medium rare is beyond me)...i've stayed in places where it smells like people were cooking toxic waste and the smell just stuck...If its just a matter of smells....when do we start enforcing the 'shower before using the elevator' rule? Because that certainly affects my enjoyment of the resort!


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## rickandcindy23 (May 19, 2011)

Ride, the older I get, the more intolerant I get of others' bad habits, and cigarette smoke stinks.  

My son (who is a smoker) would agree with you about the elevators too.  He is 32 and will say aloud, "Dial, don't you wish everybody did?"  OLD commercial, but he said it first during our NY trip, when he was 16, and we were stuck on the elevator to the top of the Empire State Building with people who do not know what a shower is, apparently, and he got a laugh from some of the others in the elevator.  It was packed.  We took the stairs down, believe it or not.  

Now he embarrasses me with it constantly.  As a matter of fact, he told our server at the restaurant last night that he needed a shower.  Then he told the manager that the guy was making him sick with his odors, and he wouldn't be able to eat now.  I was apalled, but it was true.  The young man smelled like stale cigar smoke and skunk.  SKUNK!  My husband said it was really bad at the end of the table.  My stepdad and I were on the inside, away from the odor, but I could smell something.  GROSS!


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## PamMo (May 19, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ...If its just a matter of smells....when do we start enforcing the 'shower before using the elevator' rule? Because that certainly affects my enjoyment of the resort!



Oooooohhhh....if we go there, can we add "shower before long intercontinental flights", too? :hysterical: On our last flight home from Europe, we had a family open up a package of the stinkiest cheese _ever_ soon after takeoff, and passengers all around them were literally gagging at the smell. I can laugh about it now, but oh, man, it was unbelievable!!!!

I'm just saying, I think the smoking policy needs to be clear and consistent for guests. And I really would like to know if my renter smokes, am I going to be held responsible for a $250 cleaning fee?


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## am1 (May 19, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Now he embarrasses me with it constantly.  As a matter of fact, he told our server at the restaurant last night that he needed a shower.  Then he told the manager that the guy was making him sick with his odors, and he wouldn't be able to eat now.  I was apalled, but it was true.  The young man smelled like stale cigar smoke and skunk.  SKUNK!  My husband said it was really bad at the end of the table.  My stepdad and I were on the inside, away from the odor.  GROSS!



Hopefully none of you ate any of the food that you were served after that comment.  

Non-smoking everything would be great.  But I think it would be fair that every cigarette you buy you have to bring in a butt.  That would solve the problem.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

am1 said:


> Non-smoking everything would be great.  But I think it would be fair that every cigarette you buy you have to bring in a butt.  That would solve the problem.



i like this statement....i think the littering by smokers is rediculous and this would definatly help...maybe put barcodes on the filters so you can scan them...and if you scan enough you get a Gift Certificate or something...anything that would make people think twice before randomly throwing their cigarette butts on the ground...everywhere...would be a huge plus in my eyes


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## Westin5Star (May 19, 2011)

I agree that there is an issue with some suckers littering; but there are many that do clean up after themselves.  Putting individual bar codes on fags would be very costly.  

I think that a great solution would to have sucking and non-sucking resorts!


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

Westin5Star said:


> I think that a great solution would to have sucking and non-sucking resorts!



When i was a smoker and staying at hotels...i'd ALWAYS request a non-smoking room, unless there were no balconies or i was VERY far from an external exit, i always prefered to smoke outside in the open air...the cleaning crews in most cases just aren't able to do whats required to maintain a smoking room(I agree with extra cleaning fee's if someone smokes in a room), plus if you have a room that is ONLY used for smoking...its being constantly bombarded with smoke where-as a dual use room is only getting smoked in a 10th of the time(at most)....so the room just doesn't reek as bad and is much easier to maintain and safer to stay in

Now with a non-smoking vs smoking resort...if i was still a smoker, i would have to deal with that heavy heavy smell of a room that is smoked in constantly, even though i'd NEVER smoke in the room...

I think the fairest compromise is to keep smoking out of the rooms, but allow it in all outdoor areas but PROVIDE RECEPTICALS! Please!


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## vacationdoc (May 19, 2011)

*Thanks Cathyb*



Cathyb said:


> FYI, at The Whaler, Kaanapali they have a gruesome policy.  Our daughter smokes   and she not only could NOT smoke on the lanai but also not on the grounds anywhere.  She had to go to the beach or the parking lot near the highway -- which at 10pm at night had me worried at either place.  However I support that policy -- even smoking on the lanai will filter into the unit's drapes, etc., and eventually the unit will stink.



Thanks for the info.  I will check out the Whaler for our next trip to Hawaii.  We spent 2 weeks at the whyndam kona hawaiian resort and could not use the lanai because of the smokers.  The resort would not move us and one of our group with asthma had to use inhalers much more frequently because of the smoke.  The larger resorts should at least designate some of their buildings as non smoking buildings and perhaps even begin to market themselves as smoker or nonsmoker friendly.


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## Westin5Star (May 19, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I think the fairest compromise is to keep smoking out of the rooms, but allow it in all outdoor areas but PROVIDE RECEPTICALS! Please!



The problem with this solution is that most non-suckers would prefer to not ever smell cigarettes; 2nd hand smoke is also a health concern.  If the smoking resort wanted to have non-smoking rooms I think that would be fine.  

I know that I personally would frequent resorts that were completely smoke free (if offered) over a resort that allows it in the common areas.  I think that most other non-smokers would probably do the same.  I remember about 10 years ago selecting cruise ships several times solely because they were completely smoke free; I didn't even care as much about the itenerary.


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## MON2REY (May 19, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> As for the 'affect other guests enjoyment of their lanais' thats just silly...i've stayed at TS's where their were BBQ's right on the rear porches...less then a couple feet from the neighbors porch...sitting ANYWHERE in the room you could smell the chared meat(why anyone cooks past medium rare is beyond me)...i've stayed in places where it smells like people were cooking toxic waste and the smell just stuck...!



I have only stayed at WKORVN so I can only speak to that location.  The BBQs there are a good distance from any villas.  I don't recall ever having smelled any BBQ odors in our room or on our lanai.  The kitchens in the villas are at the extreme other end of the villa from the lanai.  I doubt that any odors make it out to the lanai (unless someone burns something in the microwave).  The lanais, however, are adjacent to each other and worse, right above each other.  Depending on the breeze, we may get the stink of cigarette (or cigar) smoke from the adjacent lanai but we definately get it from someone smoking below us.  We purchased an OF unit so that we could sit on the lanai and have our morning breakfast or watch the sunsets or whales or parasailing or whatever.  To not be able to enjoy our lanai because some chain smoker below us can't be considerate enough to put on his/her sandals and go for a walk before they light up, to me is a crime.  I do agree, however, that as long as it is allowed there isn't much we can do.  The rules have to be changed.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

MON2REY said:


> We purchased an OF unit so that we could sit on the lanai and have our morning breakfast or watch the sunsets or whales or parasailing or whatever.  To not be able to enjoy our lanai because some chain smoker below us can't be considerate enough to put on his/her sandals and go for a walk before they light up, to me is a crime.



Don't forget, that person below, above and next to you, purchased their TS for the same exact reason....and NEVER forget that they OWN the lanai or patio they are smoking on...Yet the AIR is owned by no one

turn of phrase "to not be able to enjoy" their "lanai because some" non-smoker below them "can't be considerate enough to put on his/her sandals and go for a walk" instead of complaining "is a crime"


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## dss (May 19, 2011)

Sorry, but cigarette smoke is something many people find unpleasant to say the least (certainly as evidence from this forum thread) and the smell lingers and gets into clothes, etc... I do think that while yes, technically you are in your right to smoke in the lanai, I would suggest that it's reasonable to  consider and think about how that might impact people in close proximity to you. I like to listen to music on my lanai but I make sure that the volume is low so as to not disturb any neighbors, but technically, I own that lanai using your logic and the air is up for grabs. It's just simply being considerate of others in a society.


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

I emailed the resort manager, and I will report back when I get a response.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

dss said:


> I like to listen to music on my lanai but I make sure that the volume is low so as to not disturb any neighbors, but technically, I own that lanai using your logic and the air is up for grabs. It's just simply being considerate of others in a society.



I think the Music is a good example of how cigarette smokers are being considerate or at least no less inconsiderate then those with radios....Now let me ask you a question dss...When i travel...i travel for relaxed serenity...i like things as calm and quiet as possible so i can enjoy nature...hear the birds chirp, the waves break or even the wind through the leaves in the trees...I bought my TS Specificly so i can sit out on the landing and listen to the waves break....But here you are playing your music and disturbing my peace....I think its EXTREMELY inconsiderate of others to do that while i'm trying to get some peace....

See what i'm saying....You don't like Smoke...i don't like music...Its all a matter of opinion....but when it comes down to it....both you and the smoker are being equally inconsiderate


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

Full disclosure:  Ridewithme38 still smokes pseudo-cigarettes.


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## YYJMSP (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I emailed the resort manager, and I will report back when I get a response.



When we talked to them last July, they told us that owner occupants of the suites are permitted to smoke on their lanais, as this is “private property”, and not subject to the provisions of the Smoke-Free Law.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Full disclosure:  Ridewithme38 still smokes pseudo-cigarettes.


What is a faux or pseudo cigarette?  

My mom's ability to smell after smoking cigarettes for years was a good weight-loss plan.  She couldn't smell or taste food for years before she died of lung cancer, at the age of 65, after six years of battling lung cancer.  She was skinny way before she started chemotherapy and radiation. .


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> When we talked to them last July, they told us that owner occupants of the suites are permitted to smoke on their lanais, as this is “private property”, and not subject to the provisions of the Smoke-Free Law.



I'm referring to my original post:





DeniseM said:


> Recently, a Tugger called and made a reservation for a guest, and the Rep. spontanously told them that if their guest smoked in the unit, the $250 fee would be charged to the OWNER.
> 
> I know that this fee is stated on the confirmation, but wouldn't the fee be charged to the guest's credit card on file - not the owner?
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What is a faux or pseudo cigarette?



Basically, it's an electronic nicotine delivery system:


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Full disclosure:  Ridewithme38 still smokes pseudo-cigarettes.



Since you brought it up  

There's no smoking involved with these Personal Vaporizers....they're actually quite ingenious...you see the main issues with cigarettes, is that the Tar and the TSNA's from the smoke(Plus thousands of other ingredients), cause cancer along with a long list of other harmful effects to the body..Oh, and the second hand smoke, i have a 5yr old girl who is my EVERYTHING to me, i specifically switched to these because their is NO, none, Nada, second hand smoke....With the 'pseudo-cigarettes' i use....You still get the nicotine, like you would from the Cigarette, but its contained in a IMO completely harmless water vapor....(i create my own liquid for it so i know what i use is safe)

Now granted Nicotine isn't 100% good for you(Some studies have noted small positive effects, but i don't wanna post studies in this thread)so its not as 'healthy' as quitting cold turkey....But reduced harm is better then nothing, right?

Or for the Coffee drinkers out there....If you could get the caffeine you get in a cup of coffee...with a product that is 99.5% healthier then that coffee....why not?


_Let me point out...so this doesn't get erased as Spam...i make NO money off of the products and am in no way associated with any specific vendor who sells them_


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

My point is that saying that you no longer smoke, is really not quite accurate.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> My point is that saying that you no longer smoke, is really not quite accurate.



I don't smoke anymore...i basically use a Nicotine Inhaler...Think of a nebulizer, where instead of liquid containing medication it atomizers liquid containing nicotine...Except in much cooler shapes and sizes...the liquid i'm using now contains a nicotine concentrate in Watermelon Jolly rancher flavor


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

So how do you feel when you are around smokers these days?


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> So how do you feel when you are around smokers these days?



Most of the time...i feel dirty around smokers...it feels like the smoke is sticking to everything on and around me...i understand what you guys are saying about the smell, its nasty....and i don't allow people to smoke in my car or my house...heck, i didn't even smoke in my house when i was a smoker....i spent alot of time sitting outside(Thats what i miss most about smoking)

But i just worry when we start legislating and/or banning products based on perception instead of based on science and knowledge...As an industry the electronic cigarette has been going through that for about two years...people see a product that looks like a cigarette and vaper that may resemble smoke and they make assumptions that it must be locked in the closet and hidden like cigarettes....based on no science(the science proves its safety) just perception....we've had to sit down with too many state legislators who were trying to included these in smoking bans who didn't know any more about them then they 'looked' like cigarette


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

I just got a call back from Carla Smith, from Starwood, and she said that any damages, including the $250 charge for smoking, would be applied to the guest's credit card - not the owners.


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## am1 (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Full disclosure:  Ridewithme38 still smokes pseudo-cigarettes.



Who cares what he does or does not do.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 19, 2011)

> But i just worry when we start legislating and/or banning products based on perception instead of based on science and knowledge...



I agree with this.  I don't think anything to do with food or smoking--anything that is my decision, and mine alone--should be legislated.  

Where does one get those inhalers?  Our son is a smoker who promises to quit, once I lose 30 pounds.  He is thinking my 30 pounds of fat is the same as his habit, while I truly believe his habit is much worse.  

My grandma lived to 92 as an overweight person all of her life.  My mom died at 65 after smoking most of hers.  My dad died at 62; Rick's mom and died both died at 71.  All of them smoked.  JOSH HAS TO QUIT!


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## Sea Six (May 19, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> When we talked to them last July, they told us that owner occupants of the suites are permitted to smoke on their lanais, as this is “private property”, and not subject to the provisions of the Smoke-Free Law.



The lanais are private property, but the unit is not?  That's weird.  I have no doubt that eventually it will be difficult to smoke just about anywhere that anyone else might inhale your smoke, but in the mean time, it is what it is - people with differing opinions just wanting to do what they want to do.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I agree with this.  I don't think anything to do with food or smoking--anything that is my decision, and mine alone--should be legislated.
> 
> Where does one get those inhalers?  Our son is a smoker who promises to quit, once I lose 30 pounds.  He is thinking my 30 pounds of fat is the same as his habit, while I truly believe his habit is much worse.
> 
> My grandma lived to 92 as an overweight person all of her life.  My mom died at 65 after smoking most of hers.  My dad died at 62; Rick's mom and died both died at 71.  All of them smoked.  JOSH HAS TO QUIT!



A friend of mine helped setup this site...I can't view it at work..since E-cigs are for those 18 and over...it sets off the adult spam filter...It should give you all the information you need

http://www.howtovape.com


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## YYJMSP (May 19, 2011)

Sea Six said:


> The lanais are private property, but the unit is not?  That's weird.



Inside the units are clearly smoke free.  My post was not meant to suggest otherwise.

In our case, the question was about the lanais and whether or not they were in a public area of the property (which would be covered by the Smoke Free legislation).

Property management's interpretation (as explained to us) was that the lanais were exempt from the smoking rules if the unit was occupied by an owner.


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2011)

am1 said:


> Who cares what he does or does not do.



I suspect that he would feel differently about this issue if he'd never been a smoker.


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## PamMo (May 19, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I just got a call back from Carla Smith, from Starwood, and she said that any damages, including the $250 charge for smoking, would be applied to the guest's credit card - not the owners.



THANK YOU, Denise! That's the big question I wanted answered when you brought up your original post! 

(BTW, I don't think there is any smoking/nonsmoking policy that is going to make everyone happy.)


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## Sea Six (May 19, 2011)

I'm currently at Harborside, and there is a sign on the end table in the living room that says - 

"Light up a smile. Not a cigarette.  You'll be billed a cleaning fee if we find signs of smoking in this room.  That's up to $300 gone in a puff."

Doesn't say you can smoke on the lanai.  I usually find that if there are ash trays in the kitchen, then you can smoke on the lanai (not in the room).  There aren't any ash trays in this unit.  No big deal, I don't smoke anyway.


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## Ken555 (May 20, 2011)

I sympathize with smokers, since they often find themselves in an unenviable position of being addicted to something they hate or discover has caused them health problems. But, there's no question that our society has determined that smoking is bad on many levels, and the hospitality industry has agreed. If a resort has a no smoking policy, complaining about it isn't going to help. There's no way I would travel to Starwood resorts if they permitted smoking on the property where I might walk, and I haven't seen it. This is one area I'm in complete agreement with Starwood. 

And as for an earlier comparison of smoking to music...that's just ludicrous. One presents an easily corrected non health damaging temporary noise pollution issue and the other is a serious issue that has hard associated costs. I'm always amazed when smokers try to rationalize their habit, and the ways in which they do so.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 20, 2011)

Ken555 said:


> And as for an earlier comparison of smoking to music...that's just ludicrous. One presents an easily corrected non health damaging temporary noise pollution issue and the other is a serious issue that has hard associated costs. I'm always amazed when smokers try to rationalize their habit, and the ways in which they do so.



because of the rather large distances between the lanai's(over 7ft from person to person) there is no health issues associated with 2nd hand smoke....Your as likely to suffer hearing damage from the music as you are getting cancer or any breathing issues from 2nd hand smoke...because of that distance

The associated costs of smoking on a patio or lanai's (assuming you close the door to the room and don't exceed the occupancy limits, as any responsible adult would do)are what? Including an Ashtray or about 59cents?

Its ludicrous to assume that a responsible adult smoking outdoors and properly dispensing of the garbage causes ANY health or damage issues to anyone, but themselves...Smoking IN the room is a whole different issues...i support no smoking policies in room and extra fee's(atleast) for those that do


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## Passepartout (May 20, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Its ludicrous to assume that a responsible adult smoking outdoors and properly dispensing of the garbage causes ANY health or damage issues to anyone, but themselves...



What's ludicrous is to assume that one can engage in socially repugnant activity adjacent to someone else's accommodations. Tobacco smoke STINKS and doesn't have the sense to stay in the smoker's own environment.

Any smoker's right to smoke ends at my nose. If I can smell it, it's interfering with my enjoyment. Period. And I'm going to call management.

Jim Ricks


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## Ridewithme38 (May 20, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> What's ludicrous is to assume that one can engage in socially repugnant activity adjacent to someone else's accommodations. Tobacco smoke STINKS and doesn't have the sense to stay in the smoker's own environment.
> 
> Any smoker's right to smoke ends at my nose. If I can smell it, it's interfering with my enjoyment. Period. And I'm going to call management.
> 
> Jim Ricks



I believe this is how most of the country feels about 'country music' and 'oldies' music...or some of the interesting 'meals' or random smells we've had to endure on our patio's...if only those things would stop interfering with my enjoyment!


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## wilma (May 20, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> because of the rather large distances between the lanai's(over 7ft from person to person) there is (*are*) no health issues associated with 2nd hand smoke....Your (*you're*) as likely to suffer hearing damage from the music as you are getting cancer or any breathing issues from 2nd hand smoke...because of that distance



You sure about this?? Are you willing to let your kids, friends with asthma or other breathing issues, or your elderly parents ( i.e., those more susceptible to second-hand smoke) sit on the lanai knowing that people are smoking within a few feet.


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## YYJMSP (May 20, 2011)

wilma said:


> You sure about this?? Are you willing to let your kids, friends with asthma or other breathing issues, or your elderly parents ( i.e., those more susceptible to second-hand smoke) sit on the lanai knowing that people are smoking within a few feet.



Personally, I suffer from asthma, and an EXTREMELY sensitive to smoke -- I can feel the effects from 10ft away, or sometimes hours afterwards...

Assuming smoke billows upwards, the people on the lanai above the smokers are getting a good whiff.  This is what was happening to our guests last summer.


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## pharmgirl (May 20, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> Personally, I suffer from asthma, and an EXTREMELY sensitive to smoke -- I can feel the effects from 10ft away, or sometimes hours afterwards...
> 
> Assuming smoke billows upwards, the people on the lanai above the smokers are getting a good whiff.  This is what was happening to our guests last summer.



don't go near to any barbeques then as this is also bad for breathing issues, also microwaving popcorn

Don't be thinking ONLY about smoking issues


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## logan115 (May 20, 2011)

Isn't the best alternative to accomodate both sides ? I am a smoker and just got back from a trip to WDW.  Similar to other resorts, you cannot smoke in the rooms and not even on the balcony.  However there were a few designated smoking areas at the resort which worked out just fine.  Would I have loved to sit on the balcony and have a smoke with my beer watching the fireworks at the Magic Kingdom or the sunrise on Bay Lake with a cup of joe - absolutely, but I know that is not ever going to happen.  But, I feel that it was a great compromise.

I've found that when places, whether it be a resort, bar, park, you name it, make the smoking areas reasonably accessible, you'll find that smokers are going to stick to those areas - and the area will usually be relatively clean provided there is an ash tray.  Now there will always be those that don't follow the rules, but I think that has more to do with that person as opposed to the fact that they smoke.

The parks at WDW are the same way, several DSAs hidden away where smokers can get their fix without bothering others.  Where you're going to run into trouble most of the time is when you make it unreasonable - such as leaving the grounds of the property for example.

Quite honestly I don't like smoking around non-smokers anyway, give me a spot on the side (but please not behind the building next to the dumpsters) and I'm happy.   Not asking for it to be the primo spot, but just somewhere 1/2 way nice to sit down for 5 mins and relax.

Yet it seems like a lot of folks are convinced that places need to be 100% smoke free and provide no options, despite the fact that smokers are also paying guests.

Is it not fair to ask for some level of compromise from both sides ?

Chris


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## Ridewithme38 (May 20, 2011)

pharmgirl said:


> don't go near to any barbeques then as this is also bad for breathing issues, also microwaving popcorn Dust, Car exhaust, dogs, cats, cockroaches, mold, physical exercise, pollen, thunderstorms, high humidity, cold air, smog, diesel fumes and strong emotional states can all trigger asthma attacks
> 
> Don't be thinking ONLY about smoking issues



My edit in Red


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## dss (May 20, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I think the Music is a good example of how cigarette smokers are being considerate or at least no less inconsiderate then those with radios....Now let me ask you a question dss...When i travel...i travel for relaxed serenity...i like things as calm and quiet as possible so i can enjoy nature...hear the birds chirp, the waves break or even the wind through the leaves in the trees...I bought my TS Specificly so i can sit out on the landing and listen to the waves break....But here you are playing your music and disturbing my peace....I think its EXTREMELY inconsiderate of others to do that while i'm trying to get some peace....
> 
> See what i'm saying....You don't like Smoke...i don't like music...Its all a matter of opinion....but when it comes down to it....both you and the smoker are being equally inconsiderate



Just to be clear, I was just using an example of how I could apply your logic that the lanai is your property but nobody owns the air to other possible environmental disruptions. The gist of my point is that just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you aren't negatively impacting another guests experience. I made a clear point of stating that I personally choose NOT to play music out there even though I would like to because it would be inconsiderate to those around me. I would hope that most smokers would try to apply the same consideration to those around them.


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## Ken555 (May 20, 2011)

Not so very long ago, smoking was part of American society on every level, and welcome everywhere. Society, and science, has had a positive impact on our collective health by declaring smoking unwelcome. Different resorts and public places handle it in their own way. 

Arguing that smoking is comparable to noise pollution is a losing proposition. Noise pollution is its own problem and merits its own discussion. And, it's a valid discussion in regards to resorts - some are better than others in this regard, but it all depends on the type of resort you visit. Starwood properties tend to be more quiet than others I've been to, and for that I appreciate it, since I no longer prefer loud obnoxious party resorts (!). 

Personally, I don't think smokers should be enabled in any way. We should do our best to convince them to quit, for their health and ours, in as civil a manner as possible. I applaud ridewithme for using a smokeless cigarette and I'm sure we all would care a lot less about this problem if all smokers used them.


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## DeniseM (May 20, 2011)

I actually prefer for there to be a convenient and well-equipped smoking area at the resort, because if there isn't, people will smoke anyway.  

However, I don't think smoking should be allowed on the lanais, and I think the smoking area should be far enough away from all resort facilities that I don't have to smell it when I'm enjoying the resort.  YMMV


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## Ridewithme38 (May 20, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I actually prefer for there to be a convenient and well-equipped smoking area at the resort, because if there isn't, people will smoke anyway.
> 
> However, I don't think smoking should be allowed on the lanais, and I think the smoking area should be far enough away from all resort facilities that I don't have to smell it when I'm enjoying the resort.  YMMV



How about a compromise? we'll have non-smoking shelters setup with air filters with pretty pictures and calming sounds playing...why should smokers be demonized? Its not the smokers complaining...lets put the non-smokers in the bus stop type shelters


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## DeniseM (May 20, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> How about a compromise? we'll have non-smoking shelters setup with air filters with pretty pictures and calming sounds playing...why should smokers be demonized? Its not the smokers complaining...lets put the non-smokers in the bus stop type shelters



OBVIOUSLY, because it's smoking that is the offensive behavior.

Just as I said, although you smoke pseudo cigarettes now, your bias is clearly towards smokers.  Thank goodness the courts see it differently!

Don't go trollish on us here, OK?  

Yes, I am your TUG-Mom.


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## YYJMSP (May 20, 2011)

pharmgirl said:


> don't go near to any barbeques then as this is also bad for breathing issues, also microwaving popcorn
> 
> Don't be thinking ONLY about smoking issues



I've never actually experienced shortness of breath around either barbeques or microwave popcorn, so neither of them is a trigger for whatever reason...

A weird one is mayonnaise -- so if they start tossing mayo off the lanais, I will definitely raise it as a personal health concern.


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## work2travel (May 20, 2011)

Discussions on social engineering issues are so intriguing, aren't they? :deadhorse:


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## Ridewithme38 (May 20, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Don't go trollish on us here, OK?
> 
> Yes, I am your TUG-Mom.



I was taught at a very young age, one never talks back to their mother I'll do the right thing before i put my foot deeper in my mouth....:ignore:


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