# Do you think a child should waste their time at a sport they are not good at (m)



## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 19, 2013)

Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that doesn't always pay back.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string.  What do you think?  I think she should focus on school and getting into college.  But some people say you need to play sports and be super busy.  But then, she puts herself under too much stress.  What is the balance??


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## PearlCity (Sep 19, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that doesn't always pay back.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string.  What do you think?  I think she should focus on school and getting into college.  But some people say you need to play sports and be super busy.  But then, she puts herself under too much stress.  What is the balance??



I think it depends. Does she she have a lot of friends on the team? And when older girls move on, would it then be her turn for first string? Is she doing okay in school or slipping? She obviously must be somewhat good or she wouldn't have made the team at all. Would she miss it? 



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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 19, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that doesn't always pay back.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string.  What do you think?  I think she should focus on school and getting into college.  But some people say you need to play sports and be super busy.  But then, she puts herself under too much stress.  What is the balance??



I'd say if she really enjoys it then definitely because its exercise which is incredibly important and team building.


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 19, 2013)

There was a study some years ago that said girls who play sports are less likely be become a teen pregnancy statistic.  Keeping them busy and socially active with other girls is a positive thing.

I just did a quick GOOGLE to find an article to cite.

Personally, so long as parents are not the one pushing a sub-par athlete, if the child wants to continue to participate, I think it is healthy for them physically and emotionally.  Sometimes being on a team is important to show that there are many roles and that we don't all have to be "the best" to make a contribution to the effort.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

PearlCity said:


> I think it depends. Does she she have a lot of friends on the team? And when older girls move on, would it then be her turn for first string? Is she doing okay in school or slipping? She obviously must be somewhat good or she wouldn't have made the team at all. Would she miss it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2


 Friends.. yes but not best friends.  None of her best friends play water polo.   No, she would still be second string when the seniors graduate.  She gets great grades but her honor and AP classes help her GPA.  She does have to work hard at it.  School doesn't come super easy to her.   For her Freshman year we took the rec winter off between early November to early February and her grades took a nose dive.   We wanted to give her a break but that didn't work.  She just sat around and watched TV all day.  Yes, she would miss it if she left.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

MOXJO7282 said:


> I'd say if she really enjoys it then definitely because its exercise which is incredibly important and team building.


 Mostly why I want her to do it is for the exercise but you can see sometimes she gets disappointed because she isn't always picked first.  How long to allow that to happen?


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## siesta (Sep 20, 2013)

If she is having fun, who cares if she is good or not.  And most sports teams have a grade threshhold that if your grades slip you dont get to play.  As long as she is having a good time and grades arent slipping, encourage her to keep at it!  IMO, It is a bad message to tell someone not to stick with something just because they arent the best at it.  Also, sports contribute to children's development in many ways: teamwork, working towards a common goal, tasting success as well as defeat, learning your strengths and weaknesses, staying active and getting in shape, learning a good work ethic, making friends as well as enemies.  These are all valuable life lessons.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Timeshare Von said:


> There was a study some years ago that said girls who play sports are less likely be become a teen pregnancy statistic.  Keeping them busy and socially active with other girls is a positive thing.
> 
> I just did a quick GOOGLE to find an article to cite.
> 
> Personally, so long as parents are not the one pushing a sub-par athlete, if the child wants to continue to participate, I think it is healthy for them physically and emotionally.  Sometimes being on a team is important to show that there are many roles and that we don't all have to be "the best" to make a contribution to the effort.


  We are quite the opposite.  I'd rather her quit so we can take more timeshare vacations.  It is really difficult to work around her schedule.  I've never come out and said that but I've hinted enough.  We are slowly doing things without her and she doesn't like it.  For example, if she is at an all day tournament that we didn't go to, we'll go to the movies and she gets upset.   off to read the article.


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## PearlCity (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Friends.. yes but not best friends.  None of her best friends play water polo.   No, she would still be second string when the seniors graduate.  She gets great grades but her honor and AP classes help her GPA.  She does have to work hard at it.  School doesn't come super easy to her.   For her Freshman year we took the rec winter off between early November to early February and her grades took a nose dive.   We wanted to give her a break but that didn't work.  She just sat around and watched TV all day.  Yes, she would miss it if she left.



I would say if she would miss it let her keep playing. Its good exercise like the others said and if her alternative is watching tv, then she's better off playing. Even if she's second string its the team aspect of it. 

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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

siesta said:


> If she is having fun, who cares if she is good or not.  And most sports teams have a grade threshhold that if your grades slip you dont get to play.  As long as she is having a good time and grades arent slipping, encourage her to keep at it!  IMO, It is a bad message to tell someone not to stick with something just because they arent the best at it.  Also, sports contribute to children's development in many ways: teamwork, working towards a common goal, tasting success as well as defeat, learning your strengths and weaknesses, staying active and getting in shape, learning a good work ethic, making friends as well as enemies.  These are all valuable life lessons.


 I agree but not a cheap sport.  We pay at least $5k a year to play.  So, I'm still struggling to find the balance.  I know it isn't all about money but with looming college costs the money might be better spent elsewhere.  I'm not being cold about it just realistic.  I know, they keep her on the roster to fill their spots.  The more spots they have filled the more money they get.  I guess, my question is how do you know you are really on the team because you are good or if you are the team because they want your money?


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> We are quite the opposite.  I'd rather her quit so we can take more timeshare vacations.  It is really difficult to work around her schedule.  I've never come out and said that but I've hinted enough.  We are slowly doing things without her and she doesn't like it.  For example, if she is at an all day tournament that we didn't go to, we'll go to the movies and she gets upset.   off to read the article.



I'm sorta at a loss after reading this.  To be honest, you sound pretty selfish and are here trying to find support of your position to discourage (or deny) her participation.

I guess as someone involved in youth sports first as a kid, and later as a coach and volunteer . . . and most recently in paid administrative/management positions . . . it's discouraging to realize there are parents with your perspective.

At the end of the day, it is your daughter and your family.  You will need to make your own decision and live with the consequences of your actions.

P.S.  Have you discussed this with her father . . . and what does he have to say about it?


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## PearlCity (Sep 20, 2013)

What does your daughter think? 

Does she have other interests?


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## siesta (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I agree but not a cheap sport.  We pay at least $5k a year to play.  So, I'm still struggling to find the balance.  I know it isn't all about money but with looming college costs the money might be better spent elsewhere.  I'm not being cold about it just realistic.  I know, they keep her on the roster to fill their spots.  The more spots they have filled the more money they get.  I guess, my question is how do you know you are really on the team because you are good or if you are the team because they want your money?


the point I was trying to make was, it doesnt matter if shes on the team because shes good or because they just want money.  The experience she takes from it is what its all about, and as long as shes having fun who cares, that is all that matters.

Also, title IX is a hell of a thing, if you are concerned about college costs, a girl playing a sport is a great way to get scholarship money for college, or even partial scholarship.  But again, even if it doesnt take her anywhere, she will take alot away from it.

Why are you worried about college costs? Thats what student loans are for. I had over $100k in loans just from tuition from undergrad and law school, and I worked to pay food and shelter, and that was cheap compared to other kids because I had partial scholarships. Paid it off in less than 3 years without having to be broke while doing it. 

One thing I noticed, for the most part, kids that took out loans that they knew theyd have to pay back themselves took school alot more seriously then the ones whos folks paid for it. Those kids would drop classes witth no refunds, and coast by not applying themselves as much as they likely would have, because I presume they didnt feel the pain of looking at the debt rack up.  Debt and interest accruing is a great thing to keep you focused on your studies, and not take everything for granted.  I suggest you read the Generation Y thread in this forum, alot of good info there.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 20, 2013)

All kids and parents pairs are different.

As the parent and adult, you have to balance growing up the kid while keeping your sanity. The kid acts from the gut.

Your child is getting something out of the water polo adventure - might be something like, the team spirit or coach kissing up to her (and your pocketbook) or it drives YOU nuts - she becomes the center of YOUR attention.

YOU have your motives to alter HER sport choice - she is 2nd team and you get bored to death watch the other players, it interfers with your timeshare vacations and have hinted that to her, it costs a lot of money, etc.

Can't wait til your daughter is 17 ---


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## csxjohn (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> ... Yes, she would miss it if she left.







ciscogizmo1 said:


> Mostly why I want her to do it is for the exercise but you can see sometimes she gets disappointed because she isn't always picked first.  How long to allow that to happen?



Of course she feels disappointment at not being picked first but she still wants to continue.




ciscogizmo1 said:


> ...  I've never come out and said that but I've hinted enough.  We are slowly doing things without her and she doesn't like it.  For example, if she is at an all day tournament that we didn't go to, we'll go to the movies and she gets upset.   off to read the article.



Maybe it's time to stop hinting around and sit down and talk with her about it but I'm pretty sure you are short on good reasons for wanting her to quit so it may be a shot conversation.

And really? Go to a movie instead or her games.  I could see if there was an important conflict and you couldn't make it but go to a movie?



Timeshare Von said:


> I'm sorta at a loss after reading this.  To be honest, you sound pretty selfish and are here trying to find support of your position to discourage (or deny) her participation.
> 
> I guess as someone involved in youth sports first as a kid, and later as a coach and volunteer . . . and most recently in paid administrative/management positions . . . it's discouraging to realize there are parents with your perspective.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly as I read this.  If you can't afford it then try to reason with her and find another activity but if it's just because she's not the star...

It's not stressed much any longer because of the greed of needing to win but I truly believe that it is not whether you win or lose but the effort you put into the game that really matters.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Timeshare Von said:


> I'm sorta at a loss after reading this.  To be honest, you sound pretty selfish and are here trying to find support of your position to discourage (or deny) her participation.
> 
> I guess as someone involved in youth sports first as a kid, and later as a coach and volunteer . . . and most recently in paid administrative/management positions . . . it's discouraging to realize there are parents with your perspective.
> 
> ...



I don't think I'm selfish.  I have other kids as well so I need to think about the entire family not just her.  She plays water polo from August 10 to August 4.  She has been to junior Olympics in Los Angeles many times.  My dh is a CPA and we limited vacation options with his schedule as well.  I work hard and deserve a vacation.  I really don't believe in giving up your life just so your kid can play a sport.

She is actually very talented sewer but she gave that up to play water polo.  

Dad agrees with me.  We are annoyed with the coaching she has had because one hand they are saying she is a great player but then they don't play her in the game.  How is a parent suppose to process that.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> Of course she feels disappointment at not being picked first but she still wants to continue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what do I do with my other kid.  Tell them to wait until their sister has a free night.  I'd be waiting a long time.

She probably goes to 15 tournaments a year.  There is no way parents can go to all of them.  In fact the one where we went to the movies not a single parent own the team attended.  It was a 12 hour drive from our home.


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> >>>snipped<<<
> We are annoyed with the coaching she has had because one hand they are saying she is a great player but then they don't play her in the game.  How is a parent suppose to process that.



Like an adult.  Ask the coach!


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Timeshare Von said:


> Like an adult.  Ask the coach!



We have and get the same response so we stopped asking.  It is usually just a bunch of words like she needs to be more aggressive and then I ask how can she be more aggressive.   Then the conversation ends.  They really don't have an answer.  I've seen it in other sports like volleyball.  Poor coaching if you ask me?  Not everyone is cut out to be a coach.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I guess, I'm the only one here who has struggled with one child that plays a sport and goes to school and doesn't have much time for family.  We can't put all her needs first as she isn't the only one in the family.  I'm still trying to find balance.  If I met all her needs I'd be creating a Generation Y kid.  Here I thought I was being a fair parent.


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## Chrispee (Sep 20, 2013)

There's way too much "you" in this and not enough "her".  Why don't you just ask her what she gets out of being on the team, and if she wants to continue given the finances involved?

Not everybody's cut out to be on the first string, but as long as she's playing to her potential then she's getting value out of being part of the team.  Honestly you sound like a helicopter parent questioning the coach and asking about playing time, if she's in high school then she's old enough to ask on her own for areas of improvement.


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## LisaH (Sep 20, 2013)

I know what a dilemma you are facing. Would it be possible that you and the rest of the family still go ahead with the scheduled vacation, and she takes care of herself, you arrange someone to take her to practice/tournament, and/or arrange a sitter to be with her? That's what we did. Of course this depends on how trustworthy and responsible your daughter is. Only you can make a call.


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## csxjohn (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> So what do I do with my other kid.  Tell them to wait until their sister has a free night.  I'd be waiting a long time.
> 
> She probably goes to 15 tournaments a year.  There is no way parents can go to all of them.  In fact the one where we went to the movies not a single parent own the team attended.  It was a 12 hour drive from our home.



Now you tell us there's another child.  When you come here looking for comments it would be nice to tell us the whole story.

You definitely need to share your time with all your children and your husband but asking your daughter, or should I say hinting to her, to quit still sounds selfish to me.  If the water polo daughter can't understand that you can't always be at her games because your other child has things to do then maybe your not explaining it to her in a way she can understand.

Parenting isn't easy as we all know and I'm sure you really do need a vacation but I know other parents of athletes who work it out and one way is to plan vacations around tournaments. 

Your children will be grown and gone before you know it, do everything you can for them and with them now.  In a shot time you'll wish you had these times back again.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I guess, I'm the only one here who has struggled with one child that plays a sport and goes to school and doesn't have much time for family.  We can't put all her needs first as she isn't the only one in the family.  I'm still trying to find balance.  If I met all her needs I'd be creating a Generation Y kid.  Here I thought I was being a fair parent.


You titled the post - "Do you think a child should waste their time at a sport they are not good at (m)". That title, supported by some of your comments, seems to state what your position is.  IMHO - some of the reaction that you're getting is because it seems as if you've already made up your mind and you aren't really asking for advice - what you really want is affirmation.

*****

Your comments also indicate that you feel that if she can't be a first-stringer, it isn't worth her time.  You write about your disappointment, and your feelings. But not so much about her and her feelings and desires.

Which sounds to me like this is vicarious for you.  

******

Our kids were swimmers. In club swimming they were competitive at our local laid back recreational club league, but couldn't hold a candle to the clubs that swam in the county league. We eventually switched to one of those county clubs because the kids were not getting good instruction. After making the switch they got a lot better, to the point where they were the second stringers on the Club.

Two of them continued swimming into high school, where they were about the same as in the county club.  Occasionally a third place finish.  Sometimes on first team relay, but most often on second team.  But they enjoyed it.   

The two who didn't continue in high school didn't enjoy it as much as the other two. We let them make their own decisions. And they all swim regularly to this day.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I guess, I'm the only one here who has struggled with one child that plays a sport and goes to school and doesn't have much time for family.  We can't put all her needs first as she isn't the only one in the family.  I'm still trying to find balance.  If I met all her needs I'd be creating a Generation Y kid.  Here I thought I was being a fair parent.



And I have to add my voice to the confusion.

You've put out two separate issues:

1, You started by saying it's a waste of time and money because she isn't first string and won't be.

2. When that was challenged you offer that Interferes with time and family.

Which is it?  I have a sense that if you gaze down deep in your soul it's #1. If she were a first stringer you would find the time, effort, and expense worthwhile.  But since she's not a first stringer, it's not worth it to you.  Am I correct?


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## PearlCity (Sep 20, 2013)

Is there another club or league she can join in your area?

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## csxjohn (Sep 20, 2013)

I have to add my experience on my high school wrestling team.

I never wrestled in a varsity match because I could never beat out the guy at my weight that wrestled in every match.  

I practiced hard everyday, I ate right and kept my weight down and my strength up.  I just couldn't beat him.

Now in those days we did not have to pay to compete but I will tell you that I would not trade those days for anything.

When it was time to challenge for the right to wrestle against another school I felt I was ready, I thought, this time I can beat him and I tried and tried but couldn't' do it.

I was still a part of the team, I still belonged.  I liked that and it was not easy to never be first.  But I think it has done me good in my life. 

I don't go through life expecting to win every battle I'm in.  I realize not everyone can be first but at least I'm in there fighting.


There is so much to be learned from competing in organized sports that I don't think it's ever a waste of time if the person competing really wants to be there.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 20, 2013)

If you can't communicate (or understand) with the girl, send her to visit the relative she is either most like or who she adores. Has worked for both of my educated and smart siblings -- a week long visits for their kids to me, another aunt or our brother, their uncle.

At any age. I got a 4yo nephew when HE decided he was staying at my house and his MOM left him (he returned EVERY summer for 7 years in a row for week long stays). I got the 18 yo niece at FLL airport for a week's TS stay. Took my other 2 nephews (at 13 & 16) to FL with me 2 different summers separately. And I paid (or enable their escapes) some or all the costs.

And in talking with older relatives, it was a fairly common practice to send young teenagers to stay during the summer with relatives.

PS I do NOT give gifts to the kids for their birthdays or Christmas. Never had. I involve these niece and nephews in experiences - grown up birthday breakfasts, Christmas breakfast making for the parents, on site construction weeks, or making the biggest HS graduation sign for a California niece (7 years later is still hung in her bedroom), surprise Disney trip, solo trips with the kids.


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## justnosy (Sep 20, 2013)

You don't say how old your dd is but it sounds like she's in HS? How old is your other child?  I have a 15 yr dd and 12 yr old twins (b/g) and they all participate in competitive swimming (very time consuming sport!) My older dd loves the sport, my son likes it very much and my younger dd would rather not do it. Older dd has been on the team for 7 years and the twins 4 years.

I agree with others that say you should sit down and discuss/talk with her about her commitment and YOUR commitment to her sport.  As far as planning vacations, can she miss some practices/games?  I have heard that sometimes it is detrimental to the player because the coach will penalize the player for not being there.  She and you (and the rest of the family) will have to decide how to proceed. Is she responsible enough to be by herself if the rest of the family goes away? Is there a family on the team that you'll be comfortable asking them to "keep" her while you went away?

As for our family - I go to most of the swim meets and dad goes once in a while and we rarely go together (especially if the kids are not in the same session so he has to watch the one(s) not swimming). Other swim families - both parents attend all meets. He finds them boring while I love it because I socialize with the other swim parents.  I don't think it's necessary to attend all her games especially since you have another child to care for. I think it's important to let her know which games you will go to and which ones you won't. My kids also do school sports (swim team is outside of school) and I never go to any of those games/meets whereas dad will go once in a while.  We always ask about it and how they and the team did afterwards.  

There are many good suggestions from others here - one of the most important is that she enjoy the sport. If she doesn't, then let her know that she should consider finding another sport (definitely need to keep her busy and not become a couch potato!)


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## Phydeaux (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> We are quite the opposite.  *I'd rather her quit so we can take more timeshare vacations.  It is really difficult to work around her schedule.*  I've never come out and said that but I've hinted enough.  We are slowly doing things without her and she doesn't like it.  For example, if she is at an all day tournament that we didn't go to, we'll go to the movies and she gets upset.   off to read the article.






I feel very sorry for your daughter, I really do.


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## heathpack (Sep 20, 2013)

If she enjoys the sport and wants to play, then first string vs second string is not the determining factor IMO.  If the sport is expensive, it's fine to bring this up as a factor and set limits or ask her to contribute.  But not because she's second string- instead because it's fine for kids to realize nothing is free in life.  If the sport is time-consuming, it is also fine to set limits.  Maybe she cannot participate in every season of the year or go to every tournament if there is a family event/trip scheduled- that's fine too.  It's fine to put family ahead of sports.

When I was in HS, I played multiple sports on school teams, club teams and I rode horses independently.  My brother also played multiple sports at school and independently.  He was so talented at one of his individual sports that my parents wound up hiring a private coach for him.  The point of all of that was not to get scholarships- I think they were just happy that we were interested in something that was good for us physically and mentally.  My parents were not wild about the expense of the horseback riding and I was not particularly talented.  They made me aware it was expensive but indulged me.  That experience turned out to be helpful later in life when I went to veterinary school, kept me alive in the equine treatment barns, lol.  So you never know.

When I was older (ie HS), my parents did not come to every game- away school games for example or out-of-town tournaments.  But otherwise they were there and it does mean something.  It's nice to have somebody cheering for you, whether you are first or second string.  As the younger child, I got dragged to all sorts of competitions for my brother.  It was boring but I guess the concept was if someone in your family is doing something unique/special on that day, that trumps you doing something ordinary.  Within reason- fine to skip a tournament that is 12 hours away, but one in town takes precedence over a movie IMO.

I think it's more Gen Y enabling if you figure out how to send her to college without expecting her to participate in that process.  Supporting hobbies/interests she enjoys will not make her entitled, just more balanced.

H


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## theo (Sep 20, 2013)

*An observation / personal opinion on sports "paying back"....*



ciscogizmo1 said:


> Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that *doesn't always pay back*.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string. <snip>



I won't presume to judge or advise on your child rearing decisions, having long since finished with my own, but I will nonetheless offer some personal observation from my own life experience:

Participation in sports in my youth helped me to learn, practice, appreciate --- and *enjoy* --- the very nature and concept of "team". This lesson served me very well throughout my entire career and life to date. 
There is no "I" in team and it's wonderul and fulfilling to be an integral part of something that you also enjoy. You also learn first hand about "synergy", that a whole can be greater than the sum of the individual parts. 
I played several varsity sports in assorted seasons throughout H.S.; I have little doubt that the experience contributed quite a bit to whatever "success" I've enjoyed in life over the years. In short, I respectfully submit that there may be a big "pay back" (your words) later that may not be immediately apparent today. 

Today's youth, spending a whole lot of isolated time on their computers and phones (..ahem) "interacting" with others largely via texts and tweets and emails, may well be doing so at the expense of learning and developing valuable social skills of human interaction which they will need (...but maybe never adequately develop or possess) throughout their lives. Sports, by definition, teach and utilize skills of interaction --- even to "second stringers" who spend time "on the bench"; life itself tends to include some "bench time". 

Just my own personal thoughts and an expression of real gratitude to sports, for whatever it's worth.


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## vckempson (Sep 20, 2013)

I know I'm not running with the crowd here, but...  My family ran a very successful dance studio for 30 years before retiring in 2007.  They had competition groups that did about 8 - 9 competitions a year and your life was dance 6 days a week from Sept thru the 2nd week of August.  I feel for the OP.  For many sports activities these days, it's an all or nothing commitment.  Taking off a tournament for family time is just not ok if you want to be on the team.  The negative impact on a family can be very significant relative to the benefit received from the activity. One should definitely assess if the sacrifice is worth the benefits.  At that level, how good the participant is, and whether there's a future in it are reasonable questions to ask.

The other aspect is that with this type of commitment, there's typically little time for development of any other social or sports involvement.  These things seem to consume the life of your child and the family.  Your child's life become very one sided, with no balance.  It is proper to reflect on the cost/benefit to both the child and family as a whole. 

Often kids get in involved in a sport like this and inertia keeps them going lest there is a open conversation about these issues. Sometimes cost is an overriding factor but more often than not it's the other issues involved.  We had two daughters; one chose to continue all the way through high school, and the other stopped dancing after her freshmen year.  Interestingly, the one who stayed with it regrets it immensely now that she's older.  She sees how much the remainder of her life was sacrificed and feels it wasn't worth it.

Don't beat up on the OP because she didn't quite express herself properly.  It's a very real dilemma that we saw play out year after year for over 25 years at the dance studio.  With the level of sacrifice that's expected out of the team member and the rest of the family, it is ok to question if it's worth it in the long run.  

To the OP, talk with your daughter.  Discuss the issues in a non-judgemental way.  But you need to frame it from her perspective, not yours.  Is the cost to her own social development, missed family time, lost opportunities at other activities worth it.  Would she value a more balanced life than one of full devotion to one particular thing that might not lead anywhere.  The lack of balance can create lost opportunities and bad memories later on.  My own daughter wonders why we didn't step in and have this conversation with her.  Good luck.  I don't envy the position you are in.


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## bogey21 (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> . For her Freshman year we took the rec winter off between early November to early February and her grades took a nose dive.   We wanted to give her a break but that didn't work.  *She just sat around and watched TV all day*.



Doesn't this answer your question?

George


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Honestly, I'm not a great writer and I never will be and probably shouldn't be posting on message boards.   WOW.. some of you guys are very judgemental based a few words.  I think, the only person who truely understand what I'm saying is vckempson.   So, thank you for your words of understanding and wisdom.  I think you fully understand what a family sacrifices for a child's competitive activity.   Thank you...

I don't think I'll respond to anymore posts because obviously I can't explain myself well and I must be some monster to live with.   But don't worry my daughter will be fine and I will continue support in everything she does.


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## kwindham (Sep 20, 2013)

vckempson said:


> I know I'm not running with the crowd here, but...  My family ran a very successful dance studio for 30 years before retiring in 2007.  They had competition groups that did about 8 - 9 competitions a year and your life was dance 6 days a week from Sept thru the 2nd week of August.  I feel for the OP.  For many sports activities these days, it's an all or nothing commitment.  Taking off a tournament for family time is just not ok if you want to be on the team.  The negative impact on a family can be very significant relative to the benefit received from the activity. One should definitely assess if the sacrifice is worth the benefits.  At that level, how good the participant is, and whether there's a future in it are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> The other aspect is that with this type of commitment, there's typically little time for development of any other social or sports involvement.  These things seem to consume the life of your child and the family.  Your child's life become very one sided, with no balance.  It is proper to reflect on the cost/benefit to both the child and family as a whole.
> 
> ...




+1 (also in the minority here)


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## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2013)

I think people have been too harsh.  A parent has to balance everyone's needs, and I don't think that the rest of the family should have to plan their entire life around one child's schedule, in a sport that is just a casual activity.    

Is your daughter playing on her high school team or in private team?  In California, we have Water Polo teams in high school, it doesn't cost anywhere near $5,000, and the time commitment is far less.  If she played on her high school team she might get more playing time, and not have to make such a huge time and financial commitment.  

Several people in this thread have indicated that they think the parents and family have some kind of moral obligation to sacrifice their wants and needs so one member of the family can participate in a very time consuming and expensive sport.  I disagree.  

If it is just a casual activity for the daughter (she's not going to the Olympics, or getting a college scholarship) why is this any more important that what the rest of the family would like to do?  YMMV


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## kwindham (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I guess, I'm the only one here who has struggled with one child that plays a sport and goes to school and doesn't have much time for family.  We can't put all her needs first as she isn't the only one in the family.  I'm still trying to find balance.  If I met all her needs I'd be creating a Generation Y kid.  Here I thought I was being a fair parent.



Im not going to get into details here, that would be a whole other story, but I can definitely relate to having 2 children and one seeming to take every single hour of every single day.  The sheer exhaustion, the constant worry am I doing the right thing?, the guilt that my other child was "paying the price" because the oldest literally took most of my time?  The fact that there was rarely "family" time because the one child *always* had something going on.  The 1,000's of $ I sunk into this.

So although my situation is a different situation, there are a ton of similarities.  I don't know the answer.  Im still struggling to find answers my self.  I guess as parents its only natural to want whats best for your kids, ALL of your kids.  Finding that balance is what's hard sometimes.

Good luck to you in whatever you decide


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## geekette (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that doesn't always pay back.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string.  What do you think?  I think she should focus on school and getting into college.  But some people say you need to play sports and be super busy.  But then, she puts herself under too much stress.  What is the balance??



I would absolutely let my child enjoy an activity she enjoys without regard to how good she is.  Too much emphasis, imo, on Being A Star.  So much of life does not have one or the other of us getting medals or accolades, so let her enjoy the sport.  

If you want to look at it as wasted time and money, that's fine, but understand that is the lesson you convey.  Not everything comes out favorable on cost vs benefit when the benefits are intangible.

My folks insisted that we Do Something, could not be a loaf around the house after school sort.  Work, join a club, play sports, music, SOMETHING.  Super Busy is not a goal, imo, but Doing Something absolutely served me well.

I would not say a word about the money unless it was a family hardship.  Otherwise, who says everything has to 'pay back'?  Once you start bringing money into it, the kid may start to feel that SHE isn't worth it.


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 20, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I have to add my experience on my high school wrestling team.
> 
> I never wrestled in a varsity match because I could never beat out the guy at my weight that wrestled in every match.
> 
> ...


Being part of the HS wrestling team was one of the most influential experiences of my life as John describes.

It is such a challenge that even if you don't succeed on that mat and just stick with it you're accomplishing a great deal.

My story was I was a good athlete from the beginning but never had a positive outlook because I didn't have determination.  I was reasonably success and still one of the best on my football and basketball teams but definitely wasn't reaching my potential.

In 10th grade the wrestling coach who was the gym teacher was riding me about going out for wrestling. He knew I wasn't going to go far at 5'8" on the basketball court and said he thought I'd be excellent at wrestling. I had some friends on the team so decided to try it.

I was the best on the team right away at my weight so I was put on varsity. With my success in practice i thought I was ready for real competition but in our first few meets I got my butt whipped by some good wrestlers.

In my third match I was up against another tough opponent and was figuring out my exit strategy from wrestling because it was just too hard mentally and physically. And then something happened that honestly changed my life forever.   I again was getting beat 8-2 late in the third period.  Then with 10 secs left I found the strength to reverse my opponent and pin him for the win. The spectators went crazy.  

That win gave me the courage to stick with it. I was .500 in 10th, 11th grade 3rd in conference, as a senior I won the Long Island East End Conferences.

That courage grew and grew and has stuck with me to this day where when the chips are down, my determination goes up and I really do attribute that a great deal to my wrestling experience.

But that isn't even the best part.  In my 11th grade year this gorgeous 10th grade girl started keeping score for us. We became fast friends always sitting close to each other on the bus. We started going out a year later and its been a storybook romance ever since.  To this day I'm convinced I wouldn't have hook up with my eventual wife if I don't wrestle.

So aside from the tremendous strength and determination wrestling gave me it led me to my beautiful wife and the wonderful life I now have. 

So the moral of the story is sports can give you so much even if you don't have success at it.


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## vckempson (Sep 20, 2013)

Most of you are missing the quandary that's present here.  Forget about the OP's opening question.  This is not about whether involvement in sports is healthy, even if you're not good.  The answer to that is unquestionably YES.

There are, however, different level of involvement and different levels of commitment.  The OP is experiencing what many, if not most have not had to deal with.  One child's activity that consumes the entire life of your child and the rest of the family.  Your other children make sacrifices so that one child can participate.  The family and your other children give up holidays to be at competitions.  Saturday jaunts to a see a ball game, or go to the zoo, or to see a movies are things of the past.  Participating in a school play is off limits.  Going to a relatives birthday party won't happen.  Trips to visit family are postponed for years.  We're talking about monumental sacrifices so that one child can do something they are interested in but probably won't amount to a hill of beans later on in life.  And it goes on for years and years this way.

You have to balance everyone's needs in the family.  You need to look at what you're giving up, both the child and the family to make this happen.  If we're talking the Olympics, or a professional career at the end, then it might be worth it.  Beyond that, you'd better have only one child or other children who aren't interested in activities of their own.  Otherwise it's not going to end well.  I'm not saying the OP's daughter shouldn't play water polo, but maybe a travel team that consumes hers and the families' life is not appropriate.  Maybe high school water polo would be better and allow everyone, including the polo player more time to "live" life.  An unbalanced life like this in adolescence, when figuring out who you are and what you want to do in life, is all too many times not healthy... really not healthy.  Unfortunately, when you're in the middle of it, you can't see the forest for the trees.  It's not till later, with some perspective that you see how limiting (not empowering) such involvement really is.  Exposure and involvement in varied activities allow personal growth.  For most, that's way more important.


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## Elan (Sep 20, 2013)

Two things:

  1) The OP didn't explain the situation very well to begin with.  Now that she has:

  2) There's a big difference between what others here committed themselves or their kids to in their "3 hours a week, 3 months a year" school sport and what the OP is referring to.  If one isn't familiar with the time and resource commitment that year round club sports require, then their comments aren't likely relevant.  I'm pretty sure the OP understands the benefits of having her child participate in team sports.  

  This isn't a matter of "should I let my kid play sports, and why?".  It's a matter of discussing to what extent one continues a _significant_ commitment of time and resources.  _Big_ difference.

  Having said that, and recognizing that I also haven't experienced what the OP is dealing with, my comment to the OP would be that I would try to determine what my daughter is getting from the sport.  Sometimes kids aren't good at recognizing what they're truly gaining from something, and that there may be less taxing alternatives that provide the same benefit.  Does she just like the team dynamic, or does she have aspirations of a college scholarship in water polo?


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## lvhmbh (Sep 20, 2013)

Another voice FOR the sport.  When we enrolled our now junior in HS in 9th grade at a prep school they stressed to us -  as did the college admission people that come to the school every year - that he should have an activity.  It could be a sport (they have crew, swimming, wrestling, etc. etc.) or dance, acting, etc. etc.  The colleges are looking for a "well-rounded" candidate.   Our almost 17 year old plays travel and HS ice hockey and the school told us they are supportive of out of town tournament time off as long as he makes up his work as this will look very good on his college application.  Just sayin'!  He doesn't play because of it but because he loves it.  If he is not playing well he is on the bench.  If he's playing well he is on the ice.


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## geekette (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Mostly why I want her to do it is for the exercise but you can see sometimes she gets disappointed because she isn't always picked first.  How long to allow that to happen?



Forever, if she's ok with it.  It's a life lesson, we cannot all be picked first, and sometimes we are the last pick.  We all must come to accept what we are good at and what we aren't good at and make our peace with it, especially for things we enjoy.

She will grow tougher skin because of this so I'd rather see her disappointed as a teen than to face being passed over for promotions later as the first You Are Not The Best lesson in her 20s.

After all, she is CHOOSING THIS.


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## siesta (Sep 20, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Several people in this thread have indicated that they think the parents and family have some kind of moral obligation to sacrifice their wants and needs so one member of the family can participate in a very time consuming and expensive sport.  I disagree.


 I couldnt disagree more.  Parents do have an obligation to sacrifice time and money for their kids, as long as they can afford it obviously.  Just because you feel like going to the movies, or taking an extra vacation, isnt a good enough reason to not encourage your child to do something he/she enjoys because it takes time away. The OP's issue is more about herself and what she'd rather be doing, than the childs. Noone is saying go to every practice, or every game, or even at all (even though parental support is nice).  We're just saying its not about you, its about the kid.  If shes having fun, and grades arent suffering, why discourage her?

My Dad who was (and still is) a CEO of a fortune 500 company, would come back from a 16 hour flight halfway around the world, and come straight from the airport to watch me play little league sports.  If he didnt, I would have been dissapointed at the time, but would have understood now that I'm older. Parenting is about sacrifice, im sure he would have loved to go home and change out of his suit and go to sleep or relax, but he sacrificed so I could feel the support, whether or not I was good at what I was doing.  That is selfless parenting.


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## geekette (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> We are quite the opposite.  I'd rather her quit so we can take more timeshare vacations.  It is really difficult to work around her schedule.  I've never come out and said that but I've hinted enough.  We are slowly doing things without her and she doesn't like it.  For example, if she is at an all day tournament that we didn't go to, we'll go to the movies and she gets upset.   off to read the article.



I'm sorry, I really hate this - you want her to quit so you can vacation more??  And you have hinted about it?  this says to her What you want to do is not important to me.  I want to vacation more and your pursuits are in my way.  Bad Message.    

Her getting upset that you went to the movies is another matter.  Perhaps a discussion about Opportunity Cost?

I'm one of those that did not have parents at every event, in fact, very few, and it was fine with me.  Sounds like it's ok with your daughter, mostly, until you take that time to do somethign she would have enjoyed with you.

I'm getting the impression that you are attempting to manipulate her into quitting.  Dropping hints, for example.  I fear you are starting to sabotage this relationship and have no grounds to be disappointed when she grows up and doesn't want to visit because she has her own priorities without regard to what you want.  This is what you are teaching her.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2013)

Denise's post convinced me to chime in.  when she said  "A parent has to balance everyone's needs, and I don't think that the rest of the family should have to plan their entire life around one child's schedule, in a sport that is just a casual activity."  That made me sit up an take notice. I dont know Denise, except through TUG, but I remember a thread where she described some of the special planning and work she had to do recently to accommodate her son's needs  for a casual activity. So even though she thinks some here have been too harsh, I dont think shes giving you a free pass.

The fact is that if you have a kid, you do have to plan your whole life around their needs. And whether the need is casual or not, its still a need. and if you have two or three kids you have to plan with their needs in mind as well. Obviously finances enter in and the needs of all the other family members, including your own have to be considered.  I dont mean to say everyone gets what they want, (obviously there will be sacrifices and disappointments) So Im not going to tell you what to do.  except to say, what every family member wants and needs has to be considered and managed....(and Mom and Dad come second)  No one said it would be easy, but I kind of get it going to a movie when the kid's at a game.



But get used to it...this stuff doesn't always end when the kid moves out. Im 67 years old and making plans to travel 3000 miles to be with my 43 year old as she works through  a crisis...She needs me and Im going to be there, even if it disrupts my life too.


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## jme (Sep 20, 2013)

Participating in team sports is a great and worthy outlet, and many kids grow up wishing they had done so. It also teaches them how to exercise and take care of their bodies, and they don't usually forget that. It also teaches about working together to achieve goals, win or lose. 

An old saying i learned when I was very young....it was printed on every program at event time, and stuck with me-------"It matters not if you win or lose, but how you play the game."

but it all really boils down to one thing........and you'll have to ASK HER. 

It is about her, isn't it?


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## geekette (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I don't think I'm selfish.  I have other kids as well so I need to think about the entire family not just her.  She plays water polo from August 10 to August 4.  She has been to junior Olympics in Los Angeles many times.  My dh is a CPA and we limited vacation options with his schedule as well.  I work hard and deserve a vacation.  I really don't believe in giving up your life just so your kid can play a sport.
> 
> She is actually very talented sewer but she gave that up to play water polo.
> 
> Dad agrees with me.  We are annoyed with the coaching she has had because one hand they are saying she is a great player but then they don't play her in the game.  How is a parent suppose to process that.



Wow.  You have kids, I rather expect that you put their needs ahead of yours.  If you are this unsupportive of her now, do not expect her to get closer to you later.  Take your vacation, let her stay home and play her sport.


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## ondeadlin (Sep 20, 2013)

Full disclosure:  I'm a former sportswriter who has covered everything from youth sports to the Superbowl.  I'm also a parent of three.  My brother is also a Div. I college assistant coach with his own children.  So I know this area pretty well.

This story is very illustrative of a youth sports culture out of control and parents' struggle to deal with it.  Many coaches have turned individual youth sports into an all-year activity.  Why? Because they make money off it, quite frankly.

But that doesn't mean you have to participate or quit.

You need to draw better lines.  You need to tell your daughter "our lives do not revolve around this sport - this sport is a part of our lives."

You need to tell her she can participate in it on a more limited basis - how much of that basis is up to you.

And if she won't do that, well, that's her choice.

And please don't come back and tell me, "That's not possible, the coach insists on full year-round participation."  Again, this is how I made my living.  You do not have to accept that answer.  Go find another program - one that recognizes kids are not full-time youth sports athletes.


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## jlr10 (Sep 20, 2013)

I see 2 questions here:

1) Should  a child spend time in sports in which they aren't the best?  The answer here is yes.  In life very few people are the best at what they do.  But if they are the best they can be and they love doing it then it teaches a life lesson.  One of the guides I give my son is "You don't have to be the best, you just have to be the best you."  Combine this with a generation of overweight children and this is a no brainier.

2) Should the desires of one child be at the expense of everyone else? The answer is no, it teaches exactly the opposite lesson, that the world revolves around them, and will most likely presents some pretty strong resentment among the siblings, and possibly the parents.

So which option is the best?   If the decision is #2 and DD sits around moping because she can't play, then not letting her play is the right decision, IMHO, as, in life, you don't always  get what you want, and it is a lesson that is easier to learn early rather than later.  

BUT this is only my opinion.  The correct, and only answer that matters, is the one for your family.  To me, it sounds like a family meeting is in order where the opinions of all the family members is sought and then come to a common answer.  At the beginning be sure to remind everyone they will have to live with the decision, so they need to be honest in their thoughts.  Sometimes people, especially teens, don't see the other side.  But if they hear it in a non-judgmental way they might have some insight they didn't notice before, which can apply to any of the kids.   Hopefully, you are lucky enough to have that happen then it would help make the decision easier.  If not, then you, as the parent, will need to make the call based on the family in whole.  

I don't envy you on this situation, but wish you good luck.


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## Elan (Sep 20, 2013)

ondeadlin said:


> *This story is very illustrative of a youth sports culture out of control and parents' struggle to deal with it.  Many coaches have turned individual youth sports into an all-year activity.  Why? Because they make money off it, quite frankly.*



  Many of the old farts here don't get this.  They equate "youth sports" with playing school basketball or school volleyball for a few hours a week a few months a year, because that's what they did or that's what their kids did.  

  This is 2013, not 1973.  Youth sports are different now.  A _lot_ different.


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## JudyH (Sep 20, 2013)

I didn't read this whole thread.  But with my kids, my motto was "keep them busy and keep them out of trouble".  The kids who have problems are the ones with nothing to do except text and go to the mall.


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## ronparise (Sep 20, 2013)

Elan said:


> Many of the old farts here don't get this.  They equate "youth sports" with playing school basketball or school volleyball for a few hours a week a few months a year, because that's what they did or that's what their kids did.
> 
> This is 2013, not 1973.  Youth sports are different now.  A _lot_ different.



As the oldest old fart here, I get it just fine. As ondeadlin said...You dont have to participate....What you do have to do is decide, and do whats best for the family. and whatever you decide, the kids needs come first... mom and dad second....

either that or hire a nanny


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 20, 2013)

JudyH said:


> I didn't read this whole thread.  But with my kids, my motto was "keep them busy and keep them out of trouble".  The kids who have problems are the ones with nothing to do except text and go to the mall.


Sports are especially good at teaching life lessons about perseverance, team work and humility but your statement is 100% accurate for those that aren't good enough or don't enjoy team sports. 

Nowadays even some very good players don't make a team because it is much more competitive today so having kids have other activities they like to keep them busy is critical.


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## Elan (Sep 20, 2013)

ronparise said:


> As the oldest old fart here, I get it just fine. As ondeadlin said...You dont have to participate....What you do have to do is decide, and do whats best for the family. and whatever you decide, the kids needs come first... mom and dad second....
> 
> either that or hire a nanny



  Sure the kids (as in plural) come first.  But one can't exactly commit 90% of their free time to support one kid and still be fair to the others.  

  Regardless, my point is that there are a lot of judgmental comments here from folks who either aren't parents (LMFAO at this :hysterical, or haven't had kids in youth sports in quite some time.


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## csxjohn (Sep 20, 2013)

ronparise said:


> ...
> But get used to it...this stuff doesn't always end when the kid moves out. Im 67 years old and making plans to travel 3000 miles to be with my 43 year old as she works through  a crisis...She needs me and Im going to be there, even if it disrupts my life too.




I wish you luck in dealing with the crisis she is facing.  We'll be praying for you both.


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## Phill12 (Sep 20, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Would you let your child invest a lot of time and money into a sport that doesn't always pay back.  Sometimes she only gets to play for a few minutes but other times the whole game.   Is that worth it?   I'm trying to decide because next year at comp I don't want to waste the money for something like this.  She is second string.  What do you think?  I think she should focus on school and getting into college.  But some people say you need to play sports and be super busy.  But then, she puts herself under too much stress.  What is the balance??



  Sounds like you have already decided she is not good enough to play! I can tell you as a father and years of also coaching her teams it can be worth it. My daughter started out at eight years old the youngest girl third string on a local town  fast pitch softball team and two years later was one of the best players.
 I had some young girls that learned the game and became better players and enjoyed the game. If its first string or nothing she and you will miss out on a lot of enjoyment. We still miss going to games six years after she was out of school. 

 The girls that I coached and dd played with seem to do good in school and staying out of trouble.  Some of them went to college and most of them have very nice lives and families  now.

 You don't have to be the team star to have fun unless the dads and moms make that the reason for their little girls to play. The worse part of softball local and if your good enough travel ball is some of the parents!


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 20, 2013)

Elan said:


> Many of the old farts here don't get this.  They equate "youth sports" with playing school basketball or school volleyball for a few hours a week a few months a year, because that's what they did or that's what their kids did.
> 
> This is 2013, not 1973.  Youth sports are different now.  A _lot_ different.



I'm probably in the middle of the road here, age wise.  I'm 55 y/o.  I have seen the very issue that was brought up about the money making aspect of youth sports.  In youth soccer it is terrible, believe me, I understand it.

It is not, however, the root cause of the issue in this situation as presented to us.  There are choices and decisions to be made and the OP is attempting to do that in the context of her needs, those of her DD and of her entire family.

Unfortunately, based on the limited information that we have, we're at a disadvantage to really provide her with solutions to her circumstances that we don't fully know or understand.  (A typical scenario when someone comes to a group of strangers on an internet forum seeking "advice" which more often than not is "reaffirmation" of their point of view.)

I hope that she (the OP) has enough input from a variety of perspectives to come up with a game plan that she can develop with her family.  I will say personally, the decision should not be because:

1.  The daughter isn't very good
2.  Mom wants more vacations
3.  The daughter has no voice/choice in the matter
4.  Child #2 is jealous for whatever reason
5.  Child in question is jealous for whatever reason (afterall, she should be making choices, understanding . . . or learning . . . that choices we make have consequences)
6.  Someone on the internet said it was "OK" or "Not OK" to do XYZ

I do wish the OP only the best as she works to find some balance in their family's life.


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## ptlohmysoul (Sep 20, 2013)

How old is your daughter?  I am assuming she's in high school.  If it costs that much, there's no way I would allow my child to do that unless she excelled at it or she paid for it herself.  Why isn't she working now?  Is she not old enough?  I expect my kids to look for what they're good at and enjoy; I don't care if it's skateboarding or law.  Every person has something to contribute to this life; why waste the precious time we have doing something mediocre that she doesn't even seem to enjoy that much - where she seems more concerned about whether you're paying attention to her.


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## geekette (Sep 20, 2013)

Elan said:


> Sure the kids (as in plural) come first.  But one can't exactly commit 90% of their free time to support one kid and still be fair to the others.
> 
> Regardless, my point is that there are a lot of judgmental comments here from folks who either aren't parents (LMFAO at this :hysterical, or haven't had kids in youth sports in quite some time.



Some of us were involved in year round sports not attached to the schools in our own youths.  I was a swimmer and there was no high school swimming.  Winter was short course, summer was long course.  I have no big fondness for cartoons because I was either at Sat morn practice or a meet and never sat around in my jammies watching them (I began the sport at age 4).  The month of August, after long course championships, was our break.  We practiced on Thanksgiving and sometimes Christmas.  

My coach was a Hungarian refugee who believed that swimming was the most important thing.  If you aren't at practice, you had better be sick.  He was not an easy man to deal with but did command respect and committment.  If you couldn't do both of those things, you didn't belong on our team.

I think non-school sports have not changed much from where I sit.

I do believe that sports teach discipline as students must get their schoolwork done and chores, etc.  This girl is travelling with the team 12 hours from home, certainly she is a responsible young lady and that is a very good thing.


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## Ironwood (Sep 20, 2013)

I recall several years ago, one of the fellows who rode the bench on my son's high school soccer team looked like an imposing defender, but anyone could go around him as though he was a great oak rooted to a small plot of ground.  He had few skills to even be on the bench.  But I recall seeing him put in with 10 minutes to go at a tournament match they were winning handily 3-0.  The boys told him to go up front and after botching a few put through balls, he got hold of one and let go.....scored his first and only goal, he was mobbed by his teammates, but I'm not sure he ever got in a game again with such a short season.   They are all grads now and in their mid 20's.  All remain friends, and Phil still talks about the one goal he scored.  For someone who didn't have the skills to play at that level, it seems his soccer days were a positive experience on many counts.


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## PStreet1 (Sep 20, 2013)

vckempson said:


> I know I'm not running with the crowd here, but...  My family ran a very successful dance studio for 30 years before retiring in 2007.  They had competition groups that did about 8 - 9 competitions a year and your life was dance 6 days a week from Sept thru the 2nd week of August.  I feel for the OP.  For many sports activities these days, it's an all or nothing commitment.  Taking off a tournament for family time is just not ok if you want to be on the team.  The negative impact on a family can be very significant relative to the benefit received from the activity. One should definitely assess if the sacrifice is worth the benefits.  At that level, how good the participant is, and whether there's a future in it are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> The other aspect is that with this type of commitment, there's typically little time for development of any other social or sports involvement.  These things seem to consume the life of your child and the family.  Your child's life become very one sided, with no balance.  It is proper to reflect on the cost/benefit to both the child and family as a whole.
> 
> ...



+1      I taught high school for years (and years); I saw this same thing play out many, many times.  It definitely isn't always a case of "being on a team always makes a wonderful contribution to the person, no matter what the other considerations are."


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## funtime (Sep 20, 2013)

*Time and money better spent in other sports*

I think the girl should invest her time in a sport that she can use for a lifetime.  Sports that grown women enjoy are: swimming, golf, softball, tennis, bicycling, running, vollyball, dancing.  The water polo is a time filler, but it is time her mother resents.  More importantly there is no future.  It is a sports dead end for adult recreation.  On the other hand she can gain popularity thru recreational leagues all of her life, if she begins to get skills in more universal sports. If she invests time now in swimming well that will keep her fit for a lifetime and she can take some very exciting vacations all over the world swimming, snorkeling and diving.  Let her learn to hit a softball, hit a backhand or serve up a volleyball and she will be sought after for recreation leagues and become a very popular co-ed.  $5,000 would buy a lot of tennis lessons or golf lessons.


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## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2013)

funtime said:


> I think the girl should invest her time in a sport that she can use for a lifetime.  Sports that grown women enjoy are: swimming, golf, softball, tennis, bicycling, running, vollyball, dancing.  The water polo is a time filler, but it is time her mother resents.  More importantly there is no future.  It is a sports dead end for adult recreation.  On the other hand she can gain popularity thru recreational leagues all of her life, if she begins to get skills in more universal sports. If she invests time now in swimming well that will keep her fit for a lifetime and she can take some very exciting vacations all over the world swimming, snorkeling and diving.  Let her learn to hit a softball, hit a backhand or serve up a volleyball and she will be sought after for recreation leagues and become a very popular co-ed.  $5,000 would buy a lot of tennis lessons or golf lessons.



Great idea - plus these are sports that other family members could join her in.

However, if the OP's daughter really wants to continue with waterpolo, I'd let her, with the understanding that the rest of the family still has a life, and they will continue to have fun, and go on vacations, even if DD is tied up with water polo.  DD will have to decide what is the most important to her.


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## kwindham (Sep 21, 2013)

Elan said:


> *Sure the kids (as in plural) come first.  But one can't exactly commit 90% of their free time to support one kid and still be fair to the others.  *
> Regardless, my point is that there are a lot of judgmental comments here from folks who either aren't parents (LMFAO at this :hysterical, or haven't had kids in youth sports in quite some time.



^  That is what is sooo hard when you have one child that takes up a lot of time and the other doesn't....for whatever reason.  Sometimes its truly hard to find the balance.

To the op, I wish you luck, and I truly do feel for you and your family.  This is not an easy answer type thing.


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## Stressy (Sep 21, 2013)

vckempson said:


> I know I'm not running with the crowd here, but...  My family ran a very successful dance studio for 30 years before retiring in 2007.  They had competition groups that did about 8 - 9 competitions a year and your life was dance 6 days a week from Sept thru the 2nd week of August.  I feel for the OP.  For many sports activities these days, it's an all or nothing commitment.  Taking off a tournament for family time is just not ok if you want to be on the team.  The negative impact on a family can be very significant relative to the benefit received from the activity. One should definitely assess if the sacrifice is worth the benefits.  At that level, how good the participant is, and whether there's a future in it are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> The other aspect is that with this type of commitment, there's typically little time for development of any other social or sports involvement.  These things seem to consume the life of your child and the family.  Your child's life become very one sided, with no balance.  It is proper to reflect on the cost/benefit to both the child and family as a whole.
> 
> ...




+1 Very well stated.

I am only going to add that years ago,  You could play baseball for a couple of months in the summer...take a few months off...then maybe play basketball or soccer for example. There were SEASONS and CHOICES. And there was time to just be a kid or take a family vacation. It used to be about balance. It used to be ok to like all forms of activities and/or exercise. 

Now, it seems in order to be "successful" at sports you must comment to year long, time consuming, expense, clubs that include traveling. You pick "one thing" to commit to. And yes, this is at the expense of the entire family. 

I don't believe it's selfish to think about your vacations.

As timeshare owners, we have all made and PAID a commitment to travel. Why? In my home, it meant uninterrupted family time. All of us together with nothing other to do than enjoy ourselves as a family. 

I have sat exactly where you are, with all the same questions. Do they just want our money? Is she doing this for herself or for us? Are we making her do something she really doesn't want to do but is too afraid to tell us. Will she miss it if it's gone?

We let our daughter decide. Left our thoughts and emotions out of it.  She played for 12 years. She had already received everything that team sports provides including some very ugly real life circumstances and personal choices to make. It definitely strengthened her backbone which in the end helped her decide not to continue. 

It was a pleasure to watch her daydream about not spending his Christmas break on the road...to be able to hit the after Thanksgiving Day sales because she didn't have to be up at the crack of dawn the next day to drive to the next tournament. She wanted to see plays and go to the movies. She wanted to accept invitations to parties and events with her friends and not say "I've got soccer" She wanted to be "normal" and she needed to grow in other areas.

She is now a college freshman with a heavy course load and her first part time job. Many of her friends are on the local college soccer team. Her brother is an official. We are still around soccer constantly. She occasionally gets twinges of missing playing, but in the end, she chose right. Her life is full with other things.

Talk to her.


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## ondeadlin (Sep 21, 2013)

vckempson said:


> I know I'm not running with the crowd here, but...  My family ran a very successful dance studio for 30 years before retiring in 2007.  They had competition groups that did about 8 - 9 competitions a year and your life was dance 6 days a week from Sept thru the 2nd week of August.  I feel for the OP.  For many sports activities these days, it's an all or nothing commitment.  Taking off a tournament for family time is just not ok if you want to be on the team.  The negative impact on a family can be very significant relative to the benefit received from the activity. One should definitely assess if the sacrifice is worth the benefits.  At that level, how good the participant is, and whether there's a future in it are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> The other aspect is that with this type of commitment, there's typically little time for development of any other social or sports involvement.  These things seem to consume the life of your child and the family.  Your child's life become very one sided, with no balance.  It is proper to reflect on the cost/benefit to both the child and family as a whole.
> 
> ...



I grew up in Sparta and my HS girlfriend danced with you guys!


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## bogey21 (Sep 21, 2013)

Stressy said:


> .
> 
> Now, it seems in order to be "successful" at sports you must comment to year long, time consuming, expense, clubs that include traveling. You pick "one thing" to commit to. And yes, *this is at the expense of the entire family*.



Doesn't have to be.  My Son played basketball year round for a number of years and traveled to tournaments all over the US.  Because we had a Daughter at home who had her own activiites sometimes I would go, sometimes my Wife would go, and sometimes neither of us went.  One of the interesting things my Son got out of it was being the "minority" on the team.  He was one of only two white players on the team.  He is a way better person for it.

George


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## DeniseM (Sep 21, 2013)

Bogey21 - Perhaps you missed this:  The OP stated that her DD that is involved in waterpolo doesn't want the the rest of the family to do things without her.  My point is that the rest of the family should not stay home, because she is playing waterpolo.  Part of growing up is learning that choices have costs and benefits.


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## bogey21 (Sep 21, 2013)

Denise, I pretty much agree with you.  I don't know the age of OP's Daughter but at some point in time she needs to start understanding the the world doesn't revolve around her.

George


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 21, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Bogey21 - Perhaps you missed this:  The OP stated that her DD that is involved in waterpolo doesn't want the the rest of the family to do things without her.  My point is that the rest of the family should not stay home, because she is playing waterpolo.  Part of growing up is learning that choices have costs and benefits.





bogey21 said:


> Denise, I pretty much agree with you.  I don't know the age of OP's Daughter but at some point in time she needs to start understanding the the world doesn't revolve around her.
> 
> George



I agree, but that's a separate question from whether the child should be involved in the sport at all because she isn't good enough to be first string.

She can be involved in the sport without having the whole family revolving around her own activities.  If that is truly the heart of the matter, then this post really has nothing to do with sports and everything to do with family dynamics.  In fact, if that is the situation then even if the sports activity ceases, the situation will simply reappear in a different context.


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## pjrose (Sep 21, 2013)

*I'm posting with reading the discussion above.....*

Well, starting out with "waste their time" is negative; is it a waste of time if the child enjoys it? is getting exercise? has or is making friends? is being a good sport, good team member, etc?  What's the goal here, being "good at" the sport, or some of the above instead?

Will the child get more enjoyment, friendship, etc out of a sport that s/he may be "good at," or perhaps will there be more pressure to win?  

I'm thinking of DD in marching band - she was ok, she tried hard, she enjoyed paying her instruments, UNTIL she hit the competitive part, where the emphasis was on win, win, win, get first place, get every one of those tenths of points, etc.  It wasn't fun when the kids were yelled at by band leaders and other kids.  But was it a waste of time?  No, she spent several years in various bands (concert, jazz, marching) AND she (but nobody else from her school) played with a professional team's band that was in the Macy's Parade.  

But the school band.....that was misery for her.  

Sports?  Neither of my kids particularly liked or was good at sports.  They did the usual few years of t-ball, softball, basketball, but as they got older and it got more demanding and competitive, they moved on to other interests.

So.....back to the same types of questions as in the first paragraph. What is s/he interested in? What does s/he enjoy?  Does s/he WANT to play the sport?  Does s/he enjoy it, enjoy being a part of it, etc?  Then perhaps it isn't a "waste of time?"


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## Big Matt (Sep 23, 2013)

Two perspectives:

1) I played division 1 college baseball.  I was all area in that sport in high school, the captain, etc.  In high school I also played football and basketball.  I had my best experience at any level playing football.  The team environment, the commitment, etc. just clicked for me.  I was a sometime starter and sometime reserve.  I'm glad my parents encouraged me to play even though I wasn't always a starter.  

2) As a parent I have a son who played very competitive travel baseball.  Like OP, my son wasn't always playing as a starter and it was a huge pain in my ass due to tournaments.  I let HIM decide that he'd rather play basketball when he got to be about 14.  He was always better at that sport, played in high school and is trying out as a walk on at an SEC school.  Who knows if he'll make it, but he determined his own path (not me).  I just supported him.  My second son is a very talented football player in high school.  He gives that 12 months out of 12 and he made that decision.  I support him in every way I can.

Here's where it hits home for me.  Son number one is gone from my life on a full time basis.  He's in college and hopefully will continue to grow as an adult and become a successful member of society.  I gave up a lot of my time for him, as I do for his brother now (they are four years apart).  He was with us for 18 years.  I can go on a lot of timeshare trips later in life when I'm older. Hopefully he will want to come with me as an adult, and maybe with his own kids.  While he was with us, it was my obligation to put him and his brother first, and my wife and I second.


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## presley (Sep 23, 2013)

It's tough and you'll never know what the best thing will be.  You need to talk it out with her.  Ability should be the last concern.  If she wants to continue and it isn't too much a strain on the family, let her continue.  

My daughter competed dance through HS both with school and with studio.  She never had a day off.  Any school day holiday was filled with extra dance training.  I didn't like it.  She chose to go with it.  It did impact the entire family because I had to drag my son around driving her back and forth and competing out of the area.  It costs us about $500./month without any months off.  No vacations, etc.  I hated it at the time.  Now, I'm just glad I had all the time with her even though she was dancing the whole time.


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## DebBrown (Sep 23, 2013)

Such an interesting thread!  But it comes down to a family decision between the parents and the daughter.

I've seen both sides in my family.  My youngest played football his freshman year but decided not to continue because it took up ALL his time with 2 and 3 a day practices.  His sophomore year, he volunteered with a wheel chair bound child after school.  I couldn't be more proud of him.

OTOH, another son was a wrestler.  He never had a winning record but was captain of the team for two years.  He was a tenacious hard worker and never quit.  He has grown into a wonderful man.

I remember coaches being mad because we went on spring break vacations or weren't back in the summer when practices started.  I also know that coaches can penalize kids for this and this is a shame.  I definitely believe having family time and some balance.

Good luck, OP!  I hope you find a solution.

Deb


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## ciscogizmo1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Wow... I'm surprised CPS hasn't knocked on my door yet with some of your CRAZY comments.  I try not to be judgmental but geez people are you kidding me.  Obviously, I need to work on my internet communication skills and I'll take full responsibilty for that and I apologize if I wasn't clear.  

I really appreciate everyone's positive comments but not the negative.  But I guess, I can try and give you all a second chance.  I do feel that those that commented negatively will not see my side of it all and at this point should put me on their ignore list and not comment unless you have something constructive to say.  If you need clarification please ask for it and I will provide it.  But I think it is frankly rude to say "I feel sorry for your daughter", "you must not spend a lot of time with your daughter", "do you pay attention to your daughter", " you are the worst parent ever".  These are all considered rude comments.  I feel like they are attacking in nature as well.  I also gotta wonder how you talk to your own children/friends/family in real life because if you talk to me like that you definitely are overbearing and onesided.   Also, I did come the realization that most of you must have been parents in the 80s when comp teams didn't exist at the level they do today so, that is why I will give some of you the benefit of doubt.  

But for those positive posters out there, my daughter plays on the high school team and a competitive team and the rec team.  We play basically 47 weeks a year.  There is one week off between the Comp and High school.  After high school season we play rec but so does the entire Comp team until Comp season starts again in February.  Practice is 5 days a week during high school season and 3 days a week the rest of the year.  

However, our Comp team does not own a pool they rent from various high schools or community colleges (so, they have limited pool time).  So, in addition to being on water polo team we are required to join a swim team.  My daughter is on the high school swim team as their water polo coach requires it (he coaches both sports).  High school swim is from February 1 until May 15.   The rec swim team is from May 15th or so to July 30th.   Swim practice is generally 5 days a week.  This way the girls condition with swim and then, during water polo practice focus on water polo strategies.  We cannot miss water polo practice or games ever.  We will be kicked off the team.  A girl was kicked off the team last year for not showing up to practice.  The coaches did not even warn her parents that this would happen.   She had played with this club for 8 years.  The coaches never told her parents anything via phone call or email.  They just cut her from the team.  After that incident I was wondering about their coaching strategies and practices.  There are a couple clubs in our area but not close by.  It isn't like soccer where there are many options to play rec, select or comp.

For the RECORD, I've never TOLD my daughter she wasn't a good player.  I just observed that she does not play first string.  The last game she only played 2 minutes the entire game at the high school level.  So, it is kind easy to make the assumption she is not a good player based on her playing time.  I'm not exactly sure she gets that connection.

I've hinted that we do need to go on vacation as a family and I stand my ground on that.  I'm sorry some parents feel like they need to give up their family time for a sport that is just something I don't agree with.  This whole question came up because she flipped out that we went to the movies (folks it was just a movie --- it wasn't like we went to Disneyland without her).  It got me to wondering if the sport was too much pressure for her or that she truely is missing out on other activities.  Hence, the question is it worth it for her to play if she is going flip out that we went to the movies without her.     

I support my daughter 100% in this sport.   How do I know that I go to most of her games, I pay for her to play, I bend over backwards to make sure she doesn't miss a game or practice, I have thousands of photos of her playing water polo, I make collages for the team to give away, I work on the water polo banquet every year.  Trust me I'm committed to her sport.   I love her in many ways that you'll never understand.  I'm very proud of my daughter.  She is a wonderful person.  As a side note she got ask to homecoming and is very excited to go.  She was so excited that that the entire family went shopping with her including her Dad and sister to help her find a dress and shoes.  Normally, the water polo girls do not get to go to homecoming as there is usually a tournament the same day.  It was exciting to see the excitement in her eyes that she gets to go and do something social and fun. 

Here is an example of what I did on our last weekend getaway.  We live fairly close to Tahoe.  I booked labor day weekend in Tahoe before the high school schedule came out.   I booked on Marriott DC points and by time I got the schedule in August I obvioulsy couldn't cancel and my youngest was looking forward to this weekend getaway.   All summer was filled with swim team and water polo which my youngest is not interested in.  She has other interests but there are not the same as her sister's.  Anyways, to make it work, I drove to Tahoe with my youngest on Friday night while my husband took the oldest to her games on Saturday and then, they drove up on Saturday night and stayed until Monday.  And, if you know anything about last minute planners the team was trying to plan a bonding party on Saturday night (basically a sleepover party).  If that did happen, my husband was going to drop her off at the party before heading up to Tahoe and I was going to drive down Sunday morning to pick her up and go home.  Then, my husband would come home with the youngest on Monday.  I plan all of our trips usually on holiday weeks because there is usually never swim or water polo the week of Thanksgiving, Christmas/New Years and 4th of July.  

Yes, I do have time to vacation when I'm old and my children are grown but I don't want to wait until then.  I want to live my life today not on what might be tomorrow.  Because we don't get second chance on tomorrow.  Sometimes people vent and I learned the TUG group isn't place to vent or show any frustration with any situation.  I've learned my lesson.  Good luck to you all and your timeshare adventures...  Thanks for letting me say my peace.


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## PearlCity (Sep 24, 2013)

Im so sorry some folks were not very nice. I think your struggles are what a lot of parents today go through. For me my kids are young, but even now I feel the pressures to not miss games or to not pull her out of a game for vacation (though I adamently told my husband we would not alter our plans for sports until high school, which is where you're at right now) its tough. I wish you the best with your family. Whatever you end up doing just know there isn't a right or wrong answer. You do your best. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## Patri (Sep 24, 2013)

I heard on the radio yesterday about a book a woman wrote. For one year her kids were not allowed to participate in any extracurricular activities, so they could have more family time. I wonder how old the kids were. Could destroy chances for any competitive play if they were high school.

It is such a tough call. We went through all this. Even in elementary school the pressure is so great from coaches. Adults seem to lose touch with reality.
Now that we are past it all, we can see back that missing a practice or game makes no difference in life as a whole. Other parents are succumbing to those same pressures now.

Nevertheless, those were fun days. Our kids loved sports, we made great friends with the other parents, we went to tournaments, and it was family time. There were joys and disappointments. We survived.

So hope you can figure it out. It is certainly not easy. It would be nice if your daughter could indicate what she wants, without any prompting. And in a few years, this will just be a memory. You will all have moved on to other things.


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## heathpack (Sep 24, 2013)

Well, the issue you describe above is substantially different from that you originally posted (which seemed to focus on whether a child should play a sport they are not good at but want to play). What you are really concerned about is whether your daughters life has good balance and whether she's too wrapped up in it all to recognize the imbalance.  I think it's 100% appropriate to mention some of these things- too much focus on one thing is not always good, if you want to back off we'll support you (understanding that backing off likely means being cut), if you want to continue we must make time for your sister and can't make every event, once a summer we will plan a family vacation but we might not plan it around water polo so be prepared you might need to stay with a friend that week if you decide not to go (or whatever other solution is appropriate).

I think I played sports at the beginning of all the crazy intensity.  I played Travel (now called Club, I think) and High School soccer.  Our Travel teamed played Spring and Fall leagues traditionally and tournaments in the summer.  Eventually winter indoor soccer was added to the schedule, so we played year round.  High school was a different coach and we played M-F all fall.  Our HS coach was a reasonable guy, but our Travel team coach was a nut.  Our core team had been together many years and then he lost it when we got good and became hyper-competitive.  He started to try to pit one girl against another to make us more competitive.  He began to recruit girls from nearby towns (who were not eligible to play on our team based on being residents of another town) by using his home address as their residence.  Of course then he cut long-term team members.  The schedule became more packed and insane. Etc, etc, etc.  Eventually it wasn't fun anymore and it took a long time to realize it because doing that soccer thing had been such a big part of my life for so long, I didn't easily see giving it up as an option.  But fortunately for me my parents thought it had become insane and was becoming more negative than positive.  They did not suggest or push me to give it up, but  they let me know that they thought some aspects of it had become crazy and they were not 100% happy with it.  I came to realize quitting was a viable option.  I quit the club team and still played on the HS team.  Suddenly I had time to play volleyball as well- which I was mediocre at but had fun playing.  So for my last two years of HS, I still played sports but in a more mellow way and that worked out better for me.

I think my bottom line advice is to stop hinting- just tell your daughter the gist of what you told us here in your most recent post.  You think the situation is a little unbalanced and you're going to rebalance things at the family level.  That will mean you may miss some events and do things with her sister.  She might need to get rides to some practices or tourneys or parties.  You support her if she wants to keep up with the sport but it's ok to give it up as well if she feels overwhelmed.  Etc.  I'm sure you will find the right things to say.  But if you don't say anything she may feel like playing water polo all the time is what everybody expects of her.

If she decides to keep playing, think of all the positives.  She is undoubtedly in great physical shape.  She can swim for the rest of her life as a great form of exercise.  And she's I'm sure she's become very good at being focused on and dedicated to something.  I actually think that mindset may serve her quite well in college and beyond.

H


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## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2013)

> Wow... I'm surprised CPS hasn't knocked on my door yet with some of your CRAZY comments. I try not to be judgmental but geez people are you kidding me. Obviously, I need to work on my internet communication skills and I'll take full responsibilty for that and I apologize if I wasn't clear.



I thought your first post was perfectly clear - many of the responses were ridiculous...


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## geekette (Sep 24, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Wow... I'm surprised CPS hasn't knocked on my door yet with some of your CRAZY comments.  I try not to be judgmental but geez people are you kidding me.  Obviously, I need to work on my internet communication skills and I'll take full responsibilty for that and I apologize if I wasn't clear.
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's positive comments but not the negative.  But I guess, I can try and give you all a second chance.  I do feel that those that commented negatively will not see my side of it all and at this point should put me on their ignore list and not comment unless you have something constructive to say.  If you need clarification please ask for it and I will provide it.  But I think it is frankly rude to say "I feel sorry for your daughter", "you must not spend a lot of time with your daughter", "do you pay attention to your daughter", " you are the worst parent ever".  These are all considered rude comments.  I feel like they are attacking in nature as well.  I also gotta wonder how you talk to your own children/friends/family in real life because if you talk to me like that you definitely are overbearing and onesided.   Also, I did come the realization that most of you must have been parents in the 80s when comp teams didn't exist at the level they do today so, that is why I will give some of you the benefit of doubt.
> 
> ...


I apologize for any rudeness I may have shown you, and I believe I was rude to you.  I am sorry.     

In this post, you are so clear.  Balance is important and she may need that 10,000 ft view that she cannot see for herself.

I am with you - coaches cutting KIDS for missing A Practice is sheer lunacy and I would not put up with it for myself.  Kids trying to abide by coaches rules are great, but, sometimes, authority must be questioned, and this is a perfect situation for it.  Even my job lets me be absent every so often and I get to keep it and they PAY ME to show up.  

Sure, practice is important, no doubt about that, and I kind of hope your daughter eventually decides that she wants more in her life and tells the couch "I can no longer make EVERY PRACTICE, if you cut me, oh well..."  But I think she cares too much about it to do that.  I draw hard lines and when crossed, it's very easy for me to walk away.  This may be a skill she is growing.

I do support your making Family Arrangements, and if something conflicts, oh well, what cha gonna do, Kid?  The kids will never be this young again.

Good luck.


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## csxjohn (Sep 24, 2013)

Big Matt said:


> ...Here's where it hits home for me.  Son number one is gone from my life on a full time basis.  He's in college and hopefully will continue to grow as an adult and become a successful member of society.  I gave up a lot of my time for him, as I do for his brother now (they are four years apart).  He was with us for 18 years.  I can go on a lot of timeshare trips later in life when I'm older. Hopefully he will want to come with me as an adult, and maybe with his own kids.  While he was with us, it was my obligation to put him and his brother first, and my wife and I second.



I second this emotion!


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## Chrispee (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm sorry if any of my comments were offensive to you, I certainly gain a better sense of where you're coming from thanks to your subsequent post.  It's definitely a challenging task for families to balance work, extra curricular activities, and leisure.


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## pedro47 (Sep 25, 2013)

Maybe Yes ! Maybe No.  Asked your child do they enjoy the sport that they are playing.

This will be my answer to the question.


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## geekette (Sep 25, 2013)

pedro47 said:


> Maybe Yes ! Maybe No.  Asked your child do they enjoy the sport that they are playing.
> 
> This will be my answer to the question.



I think, tho, the girl has been on auto-pilot for a while so the obvious answer is YES even if that is not the deep down true answer.

Had you asked me when in the midst of my sport if I liked it I would have automatically said yes even tho it was not the sport that made me happy.


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## BocaBum99 (Sep 25, 2013)

Elan said:


> Many of the old farts here don't get this.  They equate "youth sports" with playing school basketball or school volleyball for a few hours a week a few months a year, because that's what they did or that's what their kids did.
> 
> This is 2013, not 1973.  Youth sports are different now.  A _lot_ different.



I completely agree.   When I was in high school, I played competitive tennis.  I played tournaments and during the season, I was playing maybe 4-6 hours per day.  However, I did not take private lessons, I didn't have group lessons, I didn't travel to tournaments to get ranking points and I wasn't pre-occupied with fitness, technique and equipment.  I just played for fun and only in the Spring season.  I played other sports for the rest of the year.

Fast forward to today.   If you don't take private lessons, hit in 3-4 group sessions per week and play USTA sectional tournaments and junior team tennis, you will not be competitive.   In addition, you have to travel in the summer to zonal and national tournaments.   You play all year round.  What many people do not realize is that the best players stick together.  If you don't participate in what everyone else is doing, then you won't get hitting time with them or access to the best coaches.   Just that lack of access will limit your upside potential as a player.

I hit with the same racquets throughout high school.  Now kids change racquets almost every year.   In addition, kids now have to do fitness training.  You have to be able to play 4 matches in a day.   2 of 3 sets.   Given how physical the game is today, you cannot be a highly ranked player without conditioning.  At least 2 hours per week of hard core endurance and footwork drills.

This takes a lot of time.   However, it is only for those who want to be the best at their sport.  It take this level of training to get a Div I tennis scholarship.  If that is your goal, then that is what you must do.   Interestingly, talent is only a small part of the equation.  Effort is far more important.  

For me, my youngest son has the above regimen.  But, our goals for him are different than you may think.   The goal is not to play college tennis or to get a scholorship.  Our goal is to teach our children to be absolutely in love with what they do and to be willing to do whatever it takes to be the best at it they can.  If that means second string on the varsity team, then so be it.   If it means earning a full ride to a great University, that's great too.  But, what is more important is committing themselves to something and putting everything they have into it while balancing the other needs of life such as School and Community service.   If you kids get that lesson from competitive sports, then they have learned a life lesson that will carry through with them for the rest of their lives.

If the OP viewed that her daughter were getting this learning, I think she would see the investment of $5k per year as a very inexpensive education tool for her kid.


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## PigsDad (Sep 25, 2013)

Excellent post, Boca.  My daughter plays competitive fastpitch softball, and it is uncanny how almost everything you mention about playing competitive tennis applies to her softball experience as well (private lessons, fitness and strength training, travel, etc.).

I particularly liked how you stated your goals for your son:  



BocaBum99 said:


> For me, my youngest son has the above regimen.  But, our goals for him are different than you may think.   The goal is not to play college tennis or to get a scholorship.  *Our goal is to teach our children to be absolutely in love with what they do and to be willing to do whatever it takes to be the best at it they can.*  If that means second string on the varsity team, then so be it.   If it means earning a full ride to a great University, that's great too.  But, *what is more important is committing themselves to something and putting everything they have into it while balancing the other needs of life such as School and Community service.   *If you kids get that lesson from competitive sports, then they have learned a life lesson that will carry through with them for the rest of their lives.



I especially liked and agree with the highlighted sentences above.  To me, that is the most important reason we support our daughter in her softball "career".   She loves the game, it teaches her great life lessons, and it forces her to gain experience in making some tough life-balancing decisions -- all of which will serve her well in life.

Kurt


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## laurac260 (Sep 25, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I completely agree.   When I was in high school, I played competitive tennis.  I played tournaments and during the season, I was playing maybe 4-6 hours per day.  However, I did not take private lessons, I didn't have group lessons, I didn't travel to tournaments to get ranking points and I wasn't pre-occupied with fitness, technique and equipment.  I just played for fun and only in the Spring season.  I played other sports for the rest of the year.
> 
> Fast forward to today.   If you don't take private lessons, hit in 3-4 group sessions per week and play USTA sectional tournaments and junior team tennis, you will not be competitive.   In addition, you have to travel in the summer to zonal and national tournaments.   You play all year round.  What many people do not realize is that the best players stick together.  If you don't participate in what everyone else is doing, then you won't get hitting time with them or access to the best coaches.   Just that lack of access will limit your upside potential as a player.
> 
> ...



Yes, it has changed.  I'm 46, and my kids are 12 and 6. My daughter swims competitively.  She swims with some of the top kids in the nation.  Not because she's all that, that just happens to be the team we joined.  The state of Ohio typically ranks as one of the top 3-4 competitive states in the nation in youth sports.  We joined the top ranked USA Swim swim team in the State of Ohio (unbeknownst to us, we joined because her little friend was on the team!)

She makes it to state, by the skin of her teeth.  If she lived in most other states, she would make it in pretty much every event, every year.  Here, she scratches and claws.  

I'm not sure what all this means, really.  She likes swimming, therefore she swims.  When she no longer likes it, she will quit.  I will miss her swimming, but she's almost 13 and just discovering herself, so I will need to be ok with it.  

I know my wallet sure will be.  That is, unless she discovers an even more expensive sport!!


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## BocaBum99 (Sep 25, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> Yes, it has changed.  I'm 46, and my kids are 12 and 6. My daughter swims competitively.  She swims with some of the top kids in the nation.  Not because she's all that, that just happens to be the team we joined.  The state of Ohio typically ranks as one of the top 3-4 competitive states in the nation in youth sports.  We joined the top ranked USA Swim swim team in the State of Ohio (unbeknownst to us, we joined because her little friend was on the team!)
> 
> She makes it to state, by the skin of her teeth.  If she lived in most other states, she would make it in pretty much every event, every year.  Here, she scratches and claws.
> 
> ...



I was just talking to my sister about this concept recently.   My sister's daughters play competitive volleyball in Northern California.   They play Club ball, high school ball and travel every year to Junior Nationals.  My youngest niece is 13 and 5'10" with a reach of 9'8".   She's the number 1 ranked middle in Northern California in her age group.

What my niece's don't know is anything, but top level  volleyball because my sister proactively got them into the right clubs with the right lessons every step of the way.   So, when they got to high school, it was a huge let down because their varsity team was very weak.

I think this works not only for sports, but academics and everything else in life.   The world has become much more competitive in the last 30 years.   To do well in anything, you really have to prepare smartly and work very very hard.   And, if you aren't willing to work hard, you are going to get left behind.

It's a brave new world out there.


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## theo (Sep 25, 2013)

*Yessa!*



BocaBum99 said:


> <snip> The world has become much more competitive in the last 30 years.   To do well in anything, you really have to prepare smartly and work very very hard.   And, if you aren't willing to work hard, you are going to get left behind.
> 
> It's a brave new world out there.



Generally speaking, I don't tend to agree with much that you post in these TUG forums, but on this particular observation I am definitely with you 101%...


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## elaine (Sep 25, 2013)

I have not read all 90 posts, but I faced similar issues. I work PT and commute 1.5 hrs each way to DC 3X week and also have 3 kids. DD played rec soccer from 5-11 and then aged out. It was only on Sunday afternoons, no biggie. At 12, she didn't play soccer b/c I had 8 yr old twins to also consider.  At 13 and 14 she wanted to play travel soccer--and she was probably just good enough to make the team, but I told her she could play 12-18 rec league, as I couldn't commit to the travel practices and schedules (we like to go to WDW as family at Easter vs. buying last minute plane tickets to LAs Vegas for a tournament, as my co-worker did). My co-worker spent 8 years between 2 girls tied to sports. She could never plan a trip sooner than a few weeks out when in season. I am sure DD would have rather played travel league, but she has been fine in rec league.  Plus, she then went onto do a JV sport in high school. On the flip side, when DS aged out of 5-11 rec league soccer, he had to wait a year until he played 12-18 rec league b/c I was driving DD15 to her soccer 2X a week. 
No magic advice--just a post to say I understand the time commitment and we evaluated for our family and couldn't do it. If your DD really wants to continue, I would say you have to find carpools and there might be times that she has to stay with a friend while the rest of the family goes on vacation, does a special activity, etc. My DD15 was going to fly back by herself from Hawaii for sports practice in Aug., if necessary. Elaine


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## am1 (Sep 25, 2013)

Reading all this makes me appreciate doing track and xc in high school and college.  When healthy would run 355 days a year but everything is based off of peaking for a few important races.  I could practice anywhere alone or with others.  The body can only take so much pounding so all practices were under 3 hours most under 2.  That makes training properly much more important than just intensity or total hours.  The drawback is everything one does resolves around getting better.


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## laurac260 (Sep 26, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I was just talking to my sister about this concept recently.   My sister's daughters play competitive volleyball in Northern California.   They play Club ball, high school ball and travel every year to Junior Nationals.  My youngest niece is 13 and 5'10" with a reach of 9'8".   She's the number 1 ranked middle in Northern California in her age group.
> 
> What my niece's don't know is anything, but top level  volleyball because my sister proactively got them into the right clubs with the right lessons every step of the way.   So, when they got to high school, it was a huge let down because their varsity team was very weak.
> 
> ...


We were in the "don't know anything" category too. I signed my daughter up at age almost 9 on a swim team because I thought she was a natural in the pool.  I did no research, I said to her "Susie is on the team too.  Wouldn't it be fun to swim together?"  And it was.  But we were naive.  You think competing in swim means, you put on a suit, goggles, a cap, jump off the block, and whomever gets to the wall first wins.  And that's really all there is to it.  Well, except for the method in which you get off the block, your stroke technique, your streamline technique, starts and turns, legal strokes, etc, etc, ... and that's just to compete.  If you wanna make it to state, that's a whole nuther thing right there!

I remember thinking "wow, if THIS team is this competitive, I can only imagine how high school teams are!  I wonder if she will ever be good enough to make one?"  

Then one day a friend of mine from another state posted on facebook that her HS daughter's relay team broke the school record in such and such IM relay.  I thought, wow, they must be wicked fast!  Then I saw the time.  Puzzled, I went back and checked then 11 year old daughter's time for the same event.   11 year old daughter's time was just 3 seconds slower than the new school record for a high school relay team.  And daughter's time was her swimming the entire event solo.

 This year we joined a summer swim team for the first time ever, for fun.  I cheered my daughter on as she swam her first event.  But then stopped.  And never cheered out loud for her the rest of the season.  It almost wasn't fair to let a year round swimmer swim on a summer rec team.  The only kids who placed in anything were the year round swimmers, the other kids didn't have a chance.  I think I would be rather annoyed as a parent if I paid for summer swim, my kids came to EVERY practice, then come competition time, these kids who almost never came to practice (they were at their club pool instead), jumped in the water and casually hit the wall 1/4-sometimes almost a full lap ahead of their kids.   

Play hard or go home.  I'm glad that my daughter does what she does because she loves it, and I'm glad she is able to make it to state, because that is now her "peer group" (of course, when she gets there she's 90th out of 100).  I'm just not sure this is what I would have signed her up for, had I known any better.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 26, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> This year we joined a summer swim team for the first time ever, for fun.  I cheered my daughter on as she swam her first event.  But then stopped.  And never cheered out loud for her the rest of the season.  It almost wasn't fair to let a year round swimmer swim on a summer rec team.  The only kids who placed in anything were the year round swimmers, the other kids didn't have a chance.  I think I would be rather annoyed as a parent if I paid for summer swim, my kids came to EVERY practice, then come competition time, these kids who almost never came to practice (they were at their club pool instead), jumped in the water and casually hit the wall 1/4-sometimes almost a full lap ahead of their kids.



When our kids were swimming rec in California, year-round swimmers were not allowed to compete in rec leagues.  You had to pick one or the other.  Also the few kids we did know who were swimming USSA had no interest in swimming rec because it was time out from their program.  

That being said, in Contra Costa County, where our kids swam, there were several rec leagues, one of which was extremely competitive. When our oldest child was about 13 or 14 we switched to a club in that league, and our kids loved it.


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## ronparise (Sep 26, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Wow...
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's positive comments but not the negative.  But I guess, I can try and give you all a second chance.  I do feel that those that commented negatively will not see my side of it all



Well, thanks for the second chance,  I agree with you 100%, whatever you say. 

There, does that make you feel better?


Come on, you asked a question, asking for other opinions. Did you really expect that everyone's opinion would be the same as yours.


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## BocaBum99 (Sep 26, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> When our kids were swimming rec in California, year-round swimmers were not allowed to compete in rec leagues.  You had to pick one or the other.  Also the few kids we did know who were swimming USSA had no interest in swimming rec because it was time out from their program.
> 
> That being said, in Contra Costa County, where our kids swam, there were several rec leagues, one of which was extremely competitive. When our oldest child was about 13 or 14 we switched to a club in that league, and our kids loved it.



Tennis does a really good job of sorting players based on skill level.   They use the NTRP rating system which is a scale from 2.5 (beginner) to 7.0 (professional).  For Juniors, the beginner leagues are 2.5, then they go up to 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and Open.  Ages 12, 14, and 18.

In tennis, it's a one-on-one or two-on-two sport.  So, it is very important to be hitting with people of roughly the same skill level or it is not fun for anyone.

The great thing is that they have tournaments for kids at various levels.  So, even kids at a moderate level of play are eligible to travel to national tournaments and compete.   The only problem with this method is that people sand bag their ratings so that they can get to the national tournaments.   But, they have computer rankings and USTA officials who do what is called level listing to ferret out the outliers.


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## laurac260 (Sep 26, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Well, thanks for the second chance,  I agree with you 100%, whatever you say.
> 
> There, does that make you feel better?
> 
> ...



Hey now, what's wrong with that?  I give my husband second chances to agree with me all the time!!


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## Blues (Sep 26, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> Hey now, what's wrong with that?  I give my husband second chances to agree with me all the time!!



When my wife does that to me, I tell her, "Dear, if you want my opinion, just tell me what it is!" 

-Bob


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## BocaBum99 (Sep 26, 2013)

ondeadlin said:


> Full disclosure:  I'm a former sportswriter who has covered everything from youth sports to the Superbowl.  I'm also a parent of three.  My brother is also a Div. I college assistant coach with his own children.  So I know this area pretty well.
> 
> This story is very illustrative of a youth sports culture out of control and parents' struggle to deal with it.  Many coaches have turned individual youth sports into an all-year activity.  Why? Because they make money off it, quite frankly.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I would have to agree that junior sports is big business.   I am not sure if that is good or bad.   I am not even sure it is resulting in better players.   I know my kids are better than they would have been without it.  But, there is no way that they will ever be professionals.   It doesn't seem to be helping the top juniors become top pros.

One thing I know for sure is that earning a living on the ATP Tour is next to impossible.   If you are not in the top 100 in the World, you barely make enough to travel to the tournaments.   

Probably the biggest benefit of junior sports is the possibility of earning a full ride scholarship to a good school.   This would be worth over $200,000.   $200,000 is more than most pros on the ATP tour ranked outside the top 200 in the world make in their careers.

Unless you are a top nationally ranked junior, you aren't getting a scholarship to Stanford.   However, you don't have to be that good to get a scholarship to a div II school.    A decent 3* player can earn that pretty easily.


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