# New elite 5 star



## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

i have bought 4 properties in the last 4 months. in october my wife and i bought kauai princeville. at the time i paid 49,900 and got 80,000 points. after using the points i got so excited about the program that i purchased 3 cancun properties so that i could get 5 star elite and platinum for life.

after reading the threads, i don't know if i should feel stupid. i currently am now 5 star, but it cost me 170,000. was i really stupid for doing this. i thought since i was buying preconstruction that it was a good idea.

my biggest reason was because i wanted platinum status. i don't have to use the cancun weeks until 2010, but i will have close to 750,000 SPG points now. Was i really a fool for doing this? although, i hear so much about resale, there seems to be a lot of people i know who are upper middle class that puchase straight from the developer and have loved the program. unfortunately, i didn't find out about this site till yesterday. 

I'm 32 so i thought that doing it this early in life was a good investment. I also thought starwood seemed to be the best  and was here to stay. 

I would appreciate any insight you all could give me on the following.

1. was i stupid and just wasted away our future retirement. 
2. was spg platinum worth it
3. i heard that platinum status SPG for 5 star elite would be cut off after 2000 members through svo. after that only hotel clients would be eligible
4. is starwood the best program out there and is it here to stay


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## DeniseM (Jan 25, 2008)

Welcome to TUG and the BEST board and NICEST group of people on TUG!

Most of us bought from the developer first and found TUG later.  We just didn't know about resales.  Sounds like you are in the same boat...  Hope you'll hang around and talk timeshare with us.


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

do you think 5 star elite SPG platinum is worth it?


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## jerseygirl (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> 1. was i stupid and just wasted away our future retirement.



No, you weren't stupid -- you bought into a great program and will enjoy MANY great vacations as a result.  But, you probably should have done a little more research before committing so much money.  Think of it as a great learning experience.  At 32, you have plenty of years to plan for a wonderful retirement.  (Oh ... and don't forget about college if kids are in the picture/plan.  What you just paid will cover about 3 years at most tier one/two private schools ... at today's prices.  When my daughter was born, my wonderful Merrill Lynch broker gave me a beautiful, glossy, presentation that projected about $15K/year.  He was off by about $30-$35K/year! ) 



> 2. was spg platinum worth it



Probably not worth the full premium you paid, but don't look back and just enjoy it.  Learn to get the best out of it.  Here's a recent post from another thread where someone most definitely made the best of SPG points:

_I recently bought three 1st class transpacific tickets using StarPoints. These tickets typically cost $12-16k each (flatbed cabin from east coast to Asia). I transferred my StarPoints to BA miles (BA is currently offering 30% bonus) and then use the BA miles to buy those tickets on AA. These tickets end up costing 231k StarPoints. That's more than $0.15 per StarPoint! Even without the BA bonus, each SP would still be worth $0.12 in this case. _



> 3. i heard that platinum status SPG for 5 star elite would be cut off after 2000 members through svo. after that only hotel clients would be eligible



Probably true ...or there will be a LOT of really mad people who "bought up" to get in on the deal.  Having said that, they'll probably need to come up with some other pretty fantistic perk to get people to spend the big $ buying more.



> 4. is starwood the best program out there and is it here to stay



The Marriott people will say that Marriott is the best.  The Hyatt people will say that Hyatt is the best.  The Hilton people will say that Hilton is the best.   They all have features that make them "the best" in someone's eyes, e.g., Marriott has the most locations; Hyatt has the best resorts and much greater flexibility than Starwood or Marriott; Hilton is short on locations, but really great flexibility.  What matters is which one works best for YOU.  And, they're probably all here to stay -- they're making way too much money off of us suckers, I mean owners!


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## tomandrobin (Jan 25, 2008)

Congratulations on becoming 5 * elite, and welcome to Tug!

We all have to buy from the developer, one way or another. We bought our first unit from Westin. Five months later I found tug. Then I bought my second unit resale. 

Starwood is a great system, has some great resorts in fantastic locations. Your purchases are done, so you might as well enjoy them. Having four 2 bdrm l/o units a year, looks like you have a lot of vacation planning to do.

I would highly sugeest you stick around here at Tug. I have found its the best place to learn the ins and outs of using and understanding the Starwood system.


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## Henry M. (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> 1. was i stupid and just wasted away our future retirement.



The program obviously works for you. You enjoyed it and bought more already knowing that you like its benefits. You may have been able to spend a little less with the knowledge of TUG, but you're not stupid. Since the program works for you, just enjoy it and don't torture yourself as to whether you could have saved some money. Hindsight is always 20/20 and not a reflection of the circumstances at the time you did this.

For the money you paid here you could have bought a small vacation home/cabin  somewhere. I know that I enjoy my timeshares more than I would a whole ownership of such a vacation home in a fixed location, no matter where that location was. For $170,000 you couldn't find that great of a spot for a second home.

One thing I wouldn't do is mortgage myself to the hilt to do this. This is a luxury, but if you have the money, it is a nice way to enjoy your financial success. 



zinupe said:


> 2. was spg platinum worth it



I think you should buy a timeshare because you like the timeshare experience, not just a side benefit like SPG Platinum. This benefit is nice, and you certainly do get great upgrades on rooms, but you could also outright pay for a lot of top end hotel stays with $170,000.

I find that owning several weeks of timeshares makes it easier for me to just go on vacation. Since I have the time I just use it without having to think much about the cost. I probably wouldn't take as much time off if I didn't have my timeshares. I wish /i would have bought them when I was your age. 

Having said that, I am SPG Platinum and I do get suite upgrades and the like over half the time. It all depends on just how busy the property is. I've gotten very nice rooms and suites in Maui, Kauai, Oahu, Disney World, Germany and France. SPG Platinum is a very nice perk. 



zinupe said:


> 3. i heard that platinum status SPG for 5 star elite would be cut off after 2000 members through svo. after that only hotel clients would be eligible



That what the salesmen say. Somewhere I read they were starting to get close to that number. They probably shouldn't increase it because it would damage the Platinum program to have too many people eligible for it. What they'll actually do nobody knows.



zinupe said:


> 4. is starwood the best program out there and is it here to stay



Starwood is the best program for me. They have very nice properties in the places that matter to me and the tie in with their hotel program is very good, especially because I travel internationally and their overseas properties tend to be very nice. Other programs have their benefits too. Marriott has many more locations, for example, but the hotel tie-in is not as good. Hyatt properties are wonderful, although there are fewer of them and there are less hotels.

The Starwood program is as strong as any of the other major hotel programs. I think it is definitely here to stay.

Don't beat yourself up.  You purchased something that you really like and that you know you will enjoy for a long time to come. There's nothing you can change at this point anyhow, short of selling at a terrible loss.


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

thanks so much guys. your input is priceless. i feel much better. i've always loved starwood brand hotels, and the newer timeshares seem to be of equal quality to the hotels. i look forward to using the weeks in the future and renting it out if i can't go myself. 

it seems i probably spent 30-40k more than i probably needed to to get 5 star, but it did save me the hassle of trying to buy a resale and upgrade. something that would have required a fair amt of time-something i don't have right now.

also, it sounds like the younger you are, the more value you'll be able to get out of it. i'm glad to hear that you think starwood is in it for the long haul. 

i kind of figured i ultimately made the right decision, but its good to hear everyone's input.

thanks again!!!


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## arlene22 (Jan 25, 2008)

Congratulations on your 5*! As the others have said, you are not stupid. If you had known about this site first (as most of us did not), then yes, you could have saved some money, for sure. But you are very young and if you amortize the difference over the rest of your life, it is not that significant. 

Plat for Life: I think that's great and you will definitely enjoy it. We are only Gold, but we have gotten nice upgrades from being Gold. There is a big difference between Platinum and Gold, and I'm sure you will notice the special treatment when you stay in Starwood hotels.

Bottom line is: you have bought into the top tier level of what many of us consider to be the best system out there. I could only have one week, it would be my SVN Harborside. Enjoy your fantastic vacations and the wonderful memories that go along with them. I know our membership in SVN and the trips we have taken because of it have resulted in wonderful family bonding times. We have taken almost all of my siblings/families with us on vacations and that has really enhanced our enjoyment of our trips. To us, it is worth every penny we paid. I wish you the same joy.

Welcome to TUG! We look forward to hearing your trip reports!


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## Negma (Jan 25, 2008)

I bought most of my properties prior to finding TUG. Yes you can worry about paying too much, you can wory about was it a good investment (note-never use this word in regards to timeshares), but at the end of the day you are going to go to some great spots and have some great memories. The other thing is that you are young and can make more money so not a bad deal.

The great thing is now you can use TUG to leverage what you own and find different tips. Take your time and take it all in because you will find we all have opinions and are willing to share. I am not always right but I am never misunderstood.

Welcome and I am wishing that could have owned what you own at that age.


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## myip (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> 1. was i stupid and just wasted away our future retirement.



If you pay cash then enjoy your purchase.  If you finance it with Starwood, you better figure out how to pay it off as soon as possible.


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## pointsjunkie (Jan 25, 2008)

congratulations,  i think you made a very wise decsion. starwood has fabulous resorts and you will never have to pay for a hotel again.we will be staying at a starwood resort in a few weeks as a platinum for the first time, can't wait to see the difference. thewhole way i think about travel has changed.

welcome to TUG, they are a great group of people and very helpful.


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## CMF (Jan 25, 2008)

*Totally inappropriate question.*

Would the answers differ if Zinupe financed the purchases??


Charles


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

you guys are awesome. its like family on the web. thanks for all the kind words. i definitely feel better. i look forward to years of interaction with all of you going forward. with owners like you guys, i know i made the right decision.


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

btw, i didn't finance. and i agree, it would have been a very bad decision to do so.


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## Henry M. (Jan 25, 2008)

By the way, the 750,000 points you got as incentives are worth at least $15,000 and maybe a lot more (5-7x that amount) if you use them at the right locations. You need to take that into account when comparing to buying resale. Also, carefully consider the conversion to Starpoints. It is not as worthless as some people think.


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## Denise L (Jan 25, 2008)

*Congrats on 5* Elite!*

Welcome to the family of Starwood owners  ! You should feel good about your purchases and start planning all the great vacations you can take and how to use your large cache of Starpoints! I wish I had found Starwood when I was 32 years old! It's great that you didn't finance and I'm sure that you will have a great time with your Platinum for life status. I am jealous of all of the hotel upgrades I've read about for Plats!

We bought our Starwood from the developer and have enjoyed it very much!  Congratulations!


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## duke (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> my biggest reason was because i wanted platinum status.
> 
> I'm 32 so i thought that doing it this early in life was a good investment. I also thought starwood seemed to be the best  and was here to stay.



Congrat!

SPG Platinum For Life is a great benefit and YOU GOT IT!

These SPG Platinums are running out so you made a good decision to get it NOW.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 25, 2008)

duke said:


> Congrat!
> 
> SPG Platinum For Life is a great benefit and YOU GOT IT!
> 
> These SPG Platinums are running out so you made a good decision to get it NOW.



Sigh, I need to work harder on convincing the wife to go 5*! If we had not started buying Disney, I would have been there already.


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## CMF (Jan 25, 2008)

*Glad to hear it and jealous.*



zinupe said:


> btw, i didn't finance. and i agree, it would have been a very bad decision to do so.



I was just starting to grow up at 32 and didn't have 2 cents to rub together.  I can't imagine what it would have felt like to have $170K of dispossable income at that age . . . I don't believe I'll be able to imagine what it feels like at any age for that matter - without putting a serious hurt on my retirement plans.

Congrats and enjoy your purchases in good health!

Charles


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## Transit (Jan 25, 2008)

Congrats and welcome to Tug .Instant 5* is a pretty nice place to be..enjoy


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## DeniseM (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> btw, i didn't finance. and i agree, it would have been a very bad decision to do so.



I was afraid to ask that question - that makes a HUGE difference!  Smart move!


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## spuppy (Jan 25, 2008)

emuyshondt said:


> By the way, the 750,000 points you got as incentives are worth at least $15,000 and maybe a lot more (5-7x that amount) if you use them at the right locations. You need to take that into account when comparing to buying resale. Also, carefully consider the conversion to Starpoints. It is not as worthless as some people think.



I find the best way to maximize spg points is to book expensive hotels over the holidays, when otherwise the price would be very expensive.

For example, last christmas I used 4*12000 spg points to book 5 days (4 days + 1 bonus day) at the St. Regis in Aspen.  On spg.com, the room was going for $1700 per night!  I haven't checked recently, but I never saw it below $900 per night during prime ski season.  Personally I would never pay that much, but it seemed like a better way to splurge than first-class airline tickets, since you get to enjoy a hotel room for your entire vacation.  On top of that, I was upgraded to a suite, which goes for god knows how much.  In any case, assuming $1700 per night x 5 nights for 48K points comes to almost 18 cents per point.  Though hard to find deals that good, at that rate, your 750K points would be worth almost $133K!  

By the way, I just checked spg.com for christmas 08, and the same room is going for $1740 + tax.  Unfortunately, they have gotten wise and are now charging 25K points per night...


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

[By the way, I just checked spg.com for christmas 08, and the same room is going for $1740 + tax.  Unfortunately, they have gotten wise and are now charging 25K points per night...[/QUOTE]


i know. i saw that aspen was 25k. all the NYC W hotels are also now 20k points - a significant increase fromt he past the question that i have is if they will increase the spg points given for conversion of our weeks as pts required for desirable hotels continue to go up. if not, then conversion will eventually become obsolete. afterall, why trade in the points if you can't stay in the hotels you'd like to

do you think that eventually our weeks will also be worth more spg points?


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## califgal (Jan 25, 2008)

Congrats to you!  If you don't have kids yet, use your starpoints in Europe during off peak times and live it up!!

I would be very surprised if Starwood would ever give us more starpoints for our conversions...they already have our $$$!


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## Henry M. (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't know what SVN will do. There was a major devaluation in 2007. They came back and gave a certain level of Elites and extra 10% of points in their Starpoint conversion. However, that didn't make up for the increase in points at the majority of hotels.


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## myip (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> do you think that eventually our weeks will also be worth more spg points?



Your weeks usually worth more than spg points.  A 2 bedroom vs 5 nights of  hotel room - may be you get lucky for upgrade.  You need to look at which hotel that you use your points with.  Cancun get 72000 spg points - maintenace fees is probably around 1400.  You have to get hotel room rate over $300 per night to make sense since you will only get 5 nights.


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## SDKath (Jan 25, 2008)

Well, if you were within you 10 day period of purchase, you'd be hearing RESCIND echoed throughout the entire TUG community!  But how about this for a plan:

Try to sell 2 of your Cancun properties now (or when you get the paperwork).  Since it's still brand new and there is a lot of excitement, you'd probably lose only about $5000 on each.  Since you still get to keep all the Starpoints from the purchase, you're "even."  Look at Redweek.com.  There are a couple resales already.  But you can adversite in local papers too where there is less "bargain hunting".  

Then buy a resale at a mandatory resort (ie Maui) and then another developer purchase at a mandatory resort (need to be quick as there aren't many left).  Requalify the Hawaii purchase with the dev. purchase.  You are 5* elite once more, have a more "diversified" portfolio of properties in different locations, and protect your investment by owning mandatory resorts rather than all voluntary.

Katherine


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## tonyh (Jan 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Try to sell 2 of your Cancun properties now (or when you get the paperwork).  Since it's still brand new and there is a lot of excitement, you'd probably lose only about $5000 on each.  Since you still get to keep all the Starpoints from the purchase, you're "even."  Look at Redweek.com.  There are a couple resales already.  But you can adversite in local papers too where there is less "bargain hunting".



It's hard to imagine one can recuperate more than 50% of the price paid for these Cancun properties by selling them (Princeville may be in a different catagory). SPG Platinum is valuable (I'm working on one myself) but its value varies depending on how much and how well one travels. As others have pointed out on this board, timeshares are not investments. Starwood timeshares are no exceptions. The OP has clearly overpaid but most of us made the same mistake (before we found TUG).


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## pointsjunkie (Jan 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Well, if you were within you 10 day period of purchase, you'd be hearing RESCIND echoed throughout the entire TUG community!  But how about this for a plan:
> 
> Try to sell 2 of your Cancun properties now (or when you get the paperwork).  Since it's still brand new and there is a lot of excitement, you'd probably lose only about $5000 on each.  Since you still get to keep all the Starpoints from the purchase, you're "even."  Look at Redweek.com.  There are a couple resales already.  But you can adversite in local papers too where there is less "bargain hunting".
> 
> ...



you are kidding . i hope.he will take a major loss, loose  5* and have all that aggravation. at 32 he got to be where he wants to be and he made a wise decision for himself. if he can cough up $179000, money is not an issue and he will get 50-60 years use and that's without giving it to kids.  i wish we had these options when we were in our 30's. 

good move!!


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## SDKath (Jan 25, 2008)

pointsjunkie said:


> you are kidding . i hope.he will take a major loss, loose  5* and have all that aggravation. at 32 he got to be where he wants to be and he made a wise decision for himself. if he can cough up $179000, money is not an issue and he will get 50-60 years use and that's without giving it to kids.  i wish we had these options when we were in our 30's.
> 
> good move!!




Still, you don't have to make mistakes with money, even if you are young.  What if a hurricaine hits?  All the eggs are in one basket.  No need to be foolish because you're in your 30s and have time to take losses.  But that's another topic in it's entirety.  Just presenting another option for the OP.

Katherine (age 35)!


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## LisaRex (Jan 25, 2008)

Timeshares are not investments.  If you paid cash (as opposed to financing) and plan to use the weeks you bought (though, honestly, I don't know any 32 year olds that have 5 weeks of vacation, except teachers; and no teachers that I know of have $180k at their disposal), then you made a fine choice.  I wouldn't go so far as to call it "wise" because it's never wise to sink your money into a non-appreciating asset.  But by that reasoning, we'd all be driving second hand cars. So IF you can afford it and it makes you happy, then there's nothing wrong with it. 

But if you CAN'T really afford it, then it honestly was a stupid thing to do.  There are some essential items that should be taken care of before such frivolities, such as absolutely no credit card debt, 6 months of liquid savings should you lose your job, fully funded 529 accounts, and most importantly, a fully funded 401k for your age. _You absolutely do not want to lose out on those years and years of compounded interest for retirement by diverting that money into timeshares. _ Because timeshares depreciate; retirement accounts grow. 

As far as StarPoints go, Starwood does occasionally increase the number of StarPoints needed to book rooms but doesn't adjust our StarPoint conversion rate to keep the pace of the inflation.  So while our MFs will increase over time, the number of StarOptions (and by extension, the number of StarPoints) we get remains static.  So you'll be able to enjoy fewer and fewer non-timeshare vacations.  The good news is that Starwood does have some nice properties. 

Also, keep in mind that Platinum for Life is a bit of misnomer.  According to another TUGger, you get Platinum for only as long as you are a 5* elite owner.   So you're paying a few thousand bucks in MFs each year for that privilege.


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## pointsjunkie (Jan 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Still, you don't have to make mistakes with money, even if you are young.  What if a hurricaine hits?  All the eggs are in one basket.  No need to be foolish because you're in your 30s and have time to take losses.  But that's another topic in it's entirety.  Just presenting another option for the OP.
> 
> Katherine (age 35)!



now i see where you are coming from. i forgot about those storms in that area. then your post is right on. sorry.


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## myip (Jan 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Still, you don't have to make mistakes with money, even if you are young.  What if a hurricaine hits?  All the eggs are in one basket.  No need to be foolish because you're in your 30s and have time to take losses.  But that's another topic in it's entirety.  Just presenting another option for the OP.
> 
> Katherine (age 35)!



Totally agreed. However, at this point, the original OP can't  do much regarding the purchases.  Just enjoy it since it is fully paid for ....
Don't look back.. There are folks that spend as much money as you to become 5*.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48116


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

i'm not sure how timeshares are considered depreciating assets. isn't the whole point to vacation for years to come paying yesterday prices. also, i believe all properties are insured should a hurricane hit. 

the reason i bought starwood as opposed to any other program is that i got sick and tired of not wanting to vacation b/c feeling as though i'm wasting 300-500$ a nt most times on a cramped hotel room. now i can vacation with no guilt. also, assuming the platinum is for life, i would imagine the upgrades i get over the next 20-30 years and more would easily make up for the upfront money.

this is especially true given the number of really nice and otherwise expensive starwood hotels in san diego, la, sf, and nyc - places i live (sd) and would like to visit more often for short trips.

i also believe b/c the resorts have the westin/starwood label that timeshare or not, it is in their best interest to keep the properites in upscale condition. b/c unkept conditions mean unhappy customers, which i believe starwood has figured out is not good for them. especially considering the "westin" tag is on the location.

in addition, i think it behooves them for you to convert your points. i imagine at a property such as princeville/cancun that they could rent your condo for far more money than the MF. At minimum, they could get 400-500 a nt at least for a 2br. thereby not only getting your money up front, but also getting other peoples money on the back end.

also, as long as they continue to build properties, it would be a poor business model to not have the properties continue to be high end - as people would quickly figure out conditions.

another thing i was thinking was that buying one week was a waste. if you were going to buy, you might as well try to get the perks. meaning 5 star cuts your maintainance fees, gives you more points, makes travel easier, and opens up the possibility of getting a free suite locally when my wife and i would like to get away.

i live in san diego and there will be two resorts now in palm springs which is less than 2 hours away from me, so a quick getaway there is very feasible. i didn't buy in palm springs because i feel oceanfront property is always a better idea.

finally, in response to the 401k, savings comment. yes! i do have a savings of  a little over double what i spent. sure, that money could appreciate in an account, but i felt that at 32, the years of benefit from the weeks of timeshare, 5* status, platinum SPG at a growing hotel company, and ease to vacation w/ my wife and soon to be 2 kids would be invaluable. Also working over 60 hours a week, i needed an outlet at a upscale locale without having the guilt of spending several thousand every

don't get me wrong. it wasn't an easy decision. hence the question on this thread. but i think you can't always think in dollars. overall, after hearing the comments i'm glad i did it. it sounds like at most i overspent by 30-40k realistically. but the hassle of buying resale, requal, and still needing to buy two development properties in the end wasn't worth it for me. especially b/c i don't think the platinum spg option will be around forever. at some point, they will have to cut it out or create a higher level of platinum (???platinum plus plus) certainly i took a risk...but is any safe investment really an investment.

only time will tell. i'll be sure to share it with the tug starwood family as i figure out the answer to that


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## ck1 (Jan 25, 2008)

On a side note, when I was in Cancun a few weeks ago they were pouring the driveway for the Lagunamar.  It will be the nicest resort there!  I hope people like purple.  There is a lot of purple on the buildings.

I already have a Christmas ressie-maybe I will see ya there!

Craig K


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe - First, welcome to TUG - as you have found out - TUG is a great resource of info and opinions. Some may be tough to hear (in hindsight) - but at least you will get honesty - unlike what spouts from a TS saleperson.

I assume that if you spent $50K on WKORV, then the Cancun units cost you $40K each - for a total of 594K SOs - yikes!  What are the MFs for Cancun?  The MFs for WPORV are over $2K.  

We bought EOY WPORV for $25K, and got 190K SPs, plus requaled a SVO resale to make it to 3* - that would have never happened w/o TUG.

I agree that at this point there would be little to gain in hindsight except for the 'Lessons Learned' aspect.  Considering the purchase - a bit of up-front research would have been in order (for this or anything...).  For example - taking a few minutes to Google 'Starwood Timeshare' would have bought you to TUG and saved you $$$, or at least got you more for you money.  However, at this point - make the best of what you have - both with your TSs and 5*/PFL status - and use it to its fullest.  And also enjoy life to it's fullest - because you can't take it with you - sounds like you are off to a great start.

...or as the DMB song goes...
I can't believe that we would lie in our graves - 
wondering if we had spent our living days well.
I can't believe that we would lie in our graves -
wondering what we might have been.


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## zinupe (Jan 25, 2008)

MF 1350 in cancun. 38,900 purchase price. 110K starwood points per week


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## saluki (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe said:


> MF 1350 in cancun. 38,900 purchase price. 110K starwood points per week



zinupe-

Can convert your 2BR unit to 110,000 Starpoints or are you saying 110K was the incentive point total when you purchased?


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## stevens397 (Jan 25, 2008)

zinupe-

If you can afford to buy four timeshares in a relatively short time frame, I'm guessing that you usually like to fly Business Class or First Class.  Many of us feel that the best use of Starpoints is Premium cabin air transportation.

Transfer to most airlines and you get a 20% bonus in points, i.e. 20,000 Starpoints = 25,000 miles.  So your 750,000 Starpoints would be worth 935,000 miles.  If you transfer to Cathay Pacific (like I usually do) you can get over 11 RT Bus Class tickets to Europe on British Airways or American.  At about $3,500 per seat, that alone is worth  over $40,000.

My strong recommendation, now that you've found TUG, is to go over to www.FlyerTalk.com and check on the Starwood board.  You've already got the timeshares and a slew of points.  FlyerTalk will teach you how to use them!

In terms of what you paid, done deal.  I always assume someone less than I did for the car I'm driving and that some paid more.  I'm sure if you paid it, you can afford it, and amortizing the difference over the years you'll own it - well, not worth thinking about it.  Just enjoy!

BTW, most of us are jealous!


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## LisaRex (Jan 26, 2008)

zinupe said:


> i'm not sure how timeshares are considered depreciating assets. isn't the whole point to vacation for years to come paying yesterday prices. also, i believe all properties are insured should a hurricane hit.



If you want a factual answer, then they are considered depreciating assets because buildings are considered a depreciating asset.  As buildings age, they deteriorate and it becomes more expensive to upkeep them.  (Ask anyone who's ever owned a historical building.) Land, on the other hand, is an appreciating asset.  We timeshare owners own the building, but not the land.  If and when the upkeep on the buildings becomes too burdensome for owners, the HOA can choose to dissolve, which means that any remaining equity that the owners have in the building will dissolve as well.    



			
				zinupe said:
			
		

> Another thing i was thinking was that buying one week was a waste. if you were going to buy, you might as well try to get the perks. meaning 5 star cuts your maintainance fees, gives you more points, makes travel easier, and opens up the possibility of getting a free suite locally when my wife and i would like to get away.



I'm a one week owner.  I bought my Starwood timeshare because I love Maui and it was the nicest timeshare property on Maui, IMO.  I plan on using it most years, or trading it to visit places I've never been. Once you stay in a villa, with separate bedrooms and bathrooms, plus a kitchen and a washer/dryer, it's very difficult to stay in a "regular" hotel room again.


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## LisaRex (Jan 26, 2008)

By the way, zinupe, if you do plan on staying in Starwood hotels a lot, I'd highly recommend the Starwood AMEX card, if you haven't gotten it already.  Cardholders earn 2 StarPoints for ever dollar spent at Starwood and that includes MFs.  This is in addition to any extra points you earn being a Platinum member.  Just paying your MFs on it will earn you thousands of StarPoints each year. 

Currently there's a 25k (15k signup + 10k spending, IIRC) bonus promo.  You can find it on FlyerTalk.


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## RLG (Jan 26, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> We timeshare owners own the building, but not the land.



Is this actually true?  I thought all the SVO properties, at least in the US, were freehold.  Are some of them actually under a ground lease?

Since most of the other "factual" information was incorrect, I assume this is also incorrect, but would feel better if someone that had looked into this knew the answer.



LisaRex said:


> If and when the upkeep on the buildings becomes too burdensome for owners, the HOA can choose to dissolve,



Extensive discussion has occured on TUG about this in relation to timeshares, and the consensus seems to be that for many/most timeshares the dissolution will never happen regardless of how economic it may be.



LisaRex said:


> ...which means that any remaining equity that the owners have in the building will dissolve as well.



Incorrect.  Normally the result of dissolving the timeshare would be that the HOA would sell whatever interest had been "shared", i.e. either fee simple or a leasehold.  The unit owners would split the net proceeds.



LisaRex said:


> If you want a factual answer, then they are considered depreciating assets because buildings are considered a depreciating asset.



I agree with the assertion that timeshares tend to decline in value, but this isn't the reason.  Buildings are certainly a "depreciating asset" for tax and accounting purposes.  However, very few people believe that the normal case is that a building will consistently decline in actual *market value *over a long period of time. 

There are a number of issues, specific to timeshares, that cause 1/52 of a condo to decline in value even in a market where an identical condo which isn't timeshared would be enjoying substantial increases.  They are also discussed in a lot of other places on TUG.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 26, 2008)

If the HOA dissolves - does the loss of that VOI take away your 5*/PFL status?
{so as not to be PFL anymore...}

Partly kidding...

Serious - for us (in-line w/ the addiction) we have enough resale SOs (148.1K for 2 VOIs) to go with our existing 222K SOs to make it to 5* and therefore PFL relatively easily.  If I could negotiate with SVO sales - I wonder what the cheapest yet good return on SO ROI (rent, exchange, and low MFs) to make it worthwhile so we could use after 2011.  Meaning to get now with some good valued SVO purchases to get to PFL - such as if they would allow me to requal both of our resales witha purchase of an Aruba 3Bd LO which looks like it could be one of those valuable/unique VOIs.

222K + 148K (resale) = 370K SOs w/ 559K SOs needed for 5* = 189K SOs needed


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## RLG (Jan 26, 2008)

To the OP: 

On the one hand, I certainly hope that you didn't finance this large purchase.  That's even a worse mistake than overpaying for the units themselves.

On the other hand, if you did finance them, you may be able to negotiate a way out.  You can talk to SVO Portfolio Services and attempt to get them to take the units and keep your down payments in return for cancelling the notes.  Since you normally can buy resale weeks for *far* less than from the developer, you'd still be ahead even after the loss on cancelling the original purchase.

BTW, your negotiating leverage would be affected by your need for credit in the future.  If you anticipate  needing to borrow (e.g. for a house purchase), you need to make sure the "cancellation" is not reported to the credit agencies as a "default".


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## zinupe (Jan 26, 2008)

to the post above. how much in reality do you think i could have spent to get 5*. By all calculations, it seems as though it would have still cost me at least 130k. 

That doesn't include what the 750k points mean in dollar value. So all in all i'm thinking i probably overpaid by about 30k.

also, the argument above re: depreciating assets and your alluding to it as well point out that perhaps all TS are a waste of money. after all why put money into a depreciating asset.

finally, maybe i'm not seeing it correctly, but SPG platinum alone makes up a significant portion of the cost. afterall, what does a suite in time square NYC run during high season. i'm sure over a $1000 a nt. especiallly considering i've paid 600$ including hotel taxes (20% at some places) for a regular cramped room with no lounge access etc

So if you do the math. 80k points for five nights in a suite probably has an equivalent dollar value of $5000. divide 750,000 by 80000, you get apprx 47,000$. Even a conservative estimate gives you 40k. I've also heard the suites in europe go for well over a thousand. 

so although initially i felt a bit insecure, i'm not so sure anymore. quite frankly, i don't have the time to spend searching for a resale, trying to requalify, and hoping platinum SPG will still be around for life.

also, there are no resales i'm seeing on the internet for princeville or cancun. also, you have to ask yourself how in the hell can property at the princeville resort depreciate when you have one of the world's best golf courses and a premier hotel property right next door. 

Thats my thought. let me know what you think


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## zinupe (Jan 26, 2008)

btw. nothing was financed.


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## zinupe (Jan 26, 2008)

also, one thing i forgot to mention. buying timeshares is one thing. however, with the Westin name attached, Starwood automatically forces itself to ensure quality. afterall, if their VO's fail, how far behind is the hotel chain. Bad reviews spread just as quick as good reviews. 

I believe westin has been around over 80 years... and i haven't stayed in many that i haven't thought was quite nice.

I'd like to know how many westin owners are unhappy with their purchase. i have yet to hear this on this site. and quite frankly, even after hearing all the negativity, i'm still pretty excited about it.

i love the fact i'll never have to pay ridiculous prices to stay in fabulous locations. How could a place like Kauai or Cancun beachfront really go down in value. There is only so much real estate available in locations such as those. i live in san diego and moved from Georgia, so i realize how important location is. So, in order for me to feel i made a bad purchase, i think it would have to boil down to saying TS's period are not worth it. Otherwise 30-40k for me over an earning lifetime that will likely extend for another 30 years will mean very little. 

finally, i believe the younger you are the more years you get to enjoy things such as this. 

anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 26, 2008)

More power to you! I love my timeshare purchases, no doubt about that. I would love to be able to be 5*. I would need to buy one more resale and buy two EOY units to requalify both of my resale units. But I am going to wait. There is no way I can use another two weeks a year. Renting units are a pain. Plus I have a Disney addiction that consumes my time as much as the Starwood timeshares. 

I think you are approaching with the right outlook. You plan on getting the most out of your weeks as you can, as we all should.


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## capjak (Jan 26, 2008)

Starwood prices starpoints at .035 per point but you can only purchase 20,000 per year ($700) 

It would be nice to have what you have for vacation and I am sure there will several wonderful resorts opening over the next several years.

Forget about the financials as a timshare purchase is a luxury purchase.

I really like Cancun and that area has nice clear blue water and warm year round.  Looks like you'll be spending some time there.


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## Sir Newf (Jan 26, 2008)

Bottom line is...if you and your spouse are sleeping well at night over your decision- then it was great move...if on the other hand, you're loosing sleep- then review some options- there are always options...only you and and your spouse will know for sure if this makes sense for your futures....enjoy


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## dss (Jan 26, 2008)

Concerning depreciation, it's hard to say but I just purchased WPORV with my eyes wide open that I need to brace myself for it to drop anywhere from 25-35% if I ever tried to resell it (which I have no plans to). Even with the wonderful location, it's still a voluntary resort and that make a huge difference on the resale market. Most all timeshares are a depreciating asset, that is just a fact. The most successful launch that most of us are familiar with is WKORV and that is a mandatory resort that sold out YEARS ahead of schedule. Given it's location, SVN participation, and great overall reviews, it still sells for roughly 65% of original pricing on the resale market. I look at it much like buying a nice car. The minute you drive it off the lot, it's lost some value but hopefully you bought something that gives you enjoyment and you can enjoy the ride.  It always comes back to the number one rule of buy where where want to go.

As for the SPG Platinum. I have been a Plat for many years now (the hard way!) and I have found the benefits diluted these days. I just spent three nights this week various SPG properties and only got one upgrade. And even that one I had to almost argue for as they tried to charge me $50 for it (clueless check in agent). I think there are a lot more Plats than there used to be and I would not bank on upgrade availability as part of the financial equation in reaching 5*. It's certainly a huge perk but suites are far from a sure thing, especially in business travel hubs like NYC and LA. Even the small Westin Portland which I frequent often and used to always give me suites, told me that they cannot keep up with the demand anymore.


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## jerseygirl (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm Hyatt Platinum and Continental Gold and finding the same thing -- far fewer upgrades than in the past.   I enjoy them when I get them, but no longer expect them.  I guess you could say I'm "shocked and awed" when they happen (or whatever corny phrase Starwood was using after the big uproar last year!).


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## SDKath (Jan 26, 2008)

dss said:


> As for the SPG Platinum. I have been a Plat for many years now (the hard way!) and I have found the benefits diluted these days. I just spent three nights this week various SPG properties and only got one upgrade. And even that one I had to almost argue for as they tried to charge me $50 for it (clueless check in agent). I think there are a lot more Plats than there used to be and I would not bank on upgrade availability as part of the financial equation in reaching 5*. It's certainly a huge perk but suites are far from a sure thing, especially in business travel hubs like NYC and LA. Even the small Westin Portland which I frequent often and used to always give me suites, told me that they cannot keep up with the demand anymore.




Oh no!  That's a bummer to hear.  I am aspiring for PFL but by the time I make it, there may be no upgrades left.  Sigh.


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## tonyh (Jan 26, 2008)

zinupe said:


> to the post above. how much in reality do you think i could have spent to get 5*. By all calculations, it seems as though it would have still cost me at least 130k.



I think you can get to 5* for about $100k (in fact one TUGger claimed to have done it for less than $90k) if you had found TUG before your first developer purchase AND if you don't care where the properties are located. However, if you only want to buy properties at more desirable locations (and therefore places you're more likely to go), the number will increase to $120-130k. Most of us here on this board bought from developers before we found TUG and paid or will have to pay an additional $10-40k to reach 5*.



zinupe said:


> also, the argument above re: depreciating assets and your alluding to it as well point out that perhaps all TS are a waste of money. after all why put money into a depreciating asset.
> ...
> also, there are no resales i'm seeing on the internet for princeville or cancun. also, you have to ask yourself how in the hell can property at the princeville resort depreciate when you have one of the world's best golf courses and a premier hotel property right next door.



Timeshares in general do depreciate if history is any guide, but the reasons I think they depreciate are because a) developers overcharged and we overpaid for them; b) all the overhead associated with timeshares; c) there're too many of them in many locations; and d) poor quality of many older timeshares. Princeville may be an exception (at least I hope because I bought there too), but I'm not sure about Cancun (I'm struggling with this myself to figure out which one to buy to get to 5*).


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## SDKath (Jan 26, 2008)

Here is a good 5* plan:

148,100 WMH or SDO resale Platinum 2BR ($10,000 or less) x 2, requalified
148,100 Developer purchase $35,000 (any over $20,000 would work) x 2

Basically, find the least expensive developer priced units that are over $20,000 each (so you can requal WMH/SDO).

That takes you to 5* with about $90,000 and nice properties to boot!

Kath


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## DeniseM (Jan 26, 2008)

zinupe said:


> Also, there are no resales i'm seeing on the internet for princeville or cancun.



Not trying to discourage you, but in the interest of sharing correct info. in this forum, I just looked one place and found some:

Redweek - WPORV
Price  	          Week  	 Use  	           Ownership  	Bedrooms  	 
$24,999 	Floating 	Odd Years 	Deeded 	     2 	
$35,000 	Floating 	Even Years 	Deeded 	     2 	
$38,500 	50 	         Annual 	   Deeded       2 	

Redweek - Lagunamar
$15,800  	 Floating  	 Odd Years  	 Deeded       2



> also, you have to ask yourself how in the hell can property at the princeville resort depreciate when you have one of the world's best golf courses and a *premier hotel property right next door*.



This is one of Starwood's little white lies.  The hotel is actually 2.5 miles away and timeshare owners have the same access to the hotel as the public.  So Starwood's promotion of this as one of the perks of ownership at WPORV is a joke.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 26, 2008)

> I think you can get to 5* for about $100k (in fact one TUGger claimed to have done it for less than $90k) if you had found TUG before your first developer purchase AND if you don't care where the properties are located. However, if you only want to buy properties at more desirable locations (and therefore places you're more likely to go), the number will increase to $120-130k. Most of us here on this board bought from developers before we found TUG and paid or will have to pay an additional $10-40k to reach 5*.


 
Sure you can bargain shop, but are they places one would go to every year. Also, if it was about staroptions, its not easy getting the rooms or location or resort at the 8 month mark. I think the $120-$130 thousand is realistic costs.



> Timeshares in general do depreciate if history is any guide, but the reasons I think they depreciate are because a) developers overcharged and we overpaid for them; b) all the overhead associated with timeshares; c) there're too many of them in many locations; and d) poor quality of many older timeshares. Princeville may be an exception (at least I hope because I bought there too), but I'm not sure about Cancun (I'm struggling with this myself to figure out which one to buy to get to 5*).



Disney is one of the few so far that have appreciated over time. I think intitially Princeville will lose 30-40% but in over time will do ok. Cancun is tough to gauge. There are alot of cheap timeshares there now. I guess it will depend on how Starwood runs the resort.Look at the Royal resorts, they jave done a great job in Mexico.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 26, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Here is a good 5* plan:
> 
> 148,100 WMH or SDO resale Platinum 2BR ($10,000 or less) x 2, requalified
> 148,100 Developer purchase $35,000 (any over $20,000 would work) x 2
> ...




Its really hard to find WMH Plat for $10,000. And your two developer weeks would have to worth 148,100 staroptions....Cancun, Hawaii, St John, Harborside. Can any of them be bought for $35,000 per week?

But for the money one would spend, I do agree with the OP and buying at least half of the units at resorts that I would regularly stay.


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## pointsjunkie (Jan 26, 2008)

when i have spoken to my sales person he said that all the resorts that will be opening will be more in the $50-60,000 range for a 2 br l/o plat woth 148100. seems high to me. that's why we didn't wait for aruba to open to get to 5*. i just did not think it was worth the extra $20-30k it would have cost me to get to 5*. i spent enough. and i will just call at 8 months out to go to aruba.


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## SDKath (Jan 26, 2008)

tomandrobin said:


> Its really hard to find WMH Plat for $10,000. And your two developer weeks would have to worth 148,100 staroptions....Cancun, Hawaii, St John, Harborside. Can any of them be bought for $35,000 per week?



I had 3 sellers who were willing to sell WMH for $10,000 including a recent eBay auction for that amount before we went into escrow.  You just have to look past the listed prices at Redweek and other sites.  Those prices are unrealistically high from poor souls who think they can command prices similar to what they paid to the developer years ago.  I saw a WMH listed at $28,000 for a 2BR platinum!  Nice try.

I believe the new Palm Desert is selling for $35,000 for a Platinum 2BR LO.  Granted it's no Kaanapali or Cancun.  But it's doable.

Katherine


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 26, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> This is one of Starwood's little white lies.  The hotel is actually 2.5 miles away and timeshare owners have the same access to the hotel as the public.  So Starwood's promotion of this as one of the perks of ownership at WPORV is a joke.



I realize that you are not a WPORV fan (because it is north Kauai and not OF).  Yes, the St Regis will not be right next door (I knew it never was - it was never sold to me that way - nor do I want it to be) - but the resort is sandwiched between 2 world-class 18 hole golf courses (hugh amount of acreage) - plus the resort is on a large lot itself with only 179 units - 2-3 story buildings (compare that to WKORV's units and size) and WPORV lays at the end of a Wylie road and butts up against cliffs overlooking the ocean and mountains. The Princeville resort is hugh - of course it will be a short drive/shuttle to the St Regis (or the clubhouses), but I fail to understand why this is a big deal?

The only thing we can't use at the St Regis is the Pool - I don't care about this - we will have a few of our own that they can't use.  Also, I plan to rent out the studio for the MFs to those St Regis type of people that want a condo/villa (over a hotel room) and a bit of solitude that is right next door to the golf course that many came to play anyway - and the St Regis is not.

We bought sight-unseen, but I am 3 for 3 so far...

I have always said I expect as much as a $10K drop (40%) - I really don't think it will drop this much, but a possibility.  While our incentives were not worth $10K - more like $5K - I do not see that as a big issue. 

Check out the resort location on Google Earth (not Google Maps), and compare to it's overall location within the region myself... personally I can't wait.


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## DeniseM (Jan 26, 2008)

Hi David - actually I am not against WPORV.  North Kauai is not my favorite part of the island, and I really love staying OF, but I'm sure it's going to be a lovely resort and I want to tour it when we are there this summer. 

 I was just trying to clarify some misinformation that I am sure the OP heard from a timeshare salesman - that's all.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 27, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Hi David - actually I am not against WPORV.  North Kauai is not my favorite part of the island, and I really love staying OF, but I'm sure it's going to be a lovely resort and I want to tour it when we are there this summer.
> 
> I was just trying to clarify some misinformation that I am sure the OP heard from a timeshare salesman - that's all.



Not a problem - no one should believe anything from a salesperson - it is misinfo to make it sound as if they are physically connected (and why research is so important)
good old grandmama pulled thru though...

btw, it's 2 miles - about 0.4 mi down Wylie Rd - right on Ka Haku Rd for about 1.6 miles. w/ Secret beach and Queens Bath along the way


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## myip (Jan 27, 2008)

zinupe said:


> to the post above. how much in reality do you think i could have spent to get 5*. By all calculations, it seems as though it would have still cost me at least 130k.
> 
> That doesn't include what the 750k points mean in dollar value. So all in all i'm thinking i probably overpaid by about 30k.


Don't know how you get overpaid by 30K.  Seems  to me is 60K.
2 unit from developers - 40K each 80K
2 units from resale - 10K each $20K
You get half of the starpoints 375K.  Not sure how much is that worth.... I just put a value of $10K.


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## LisaRex (Jan 27, 2008)

RLG said:


> Is this actually true?  I thought all the SVO properties, at least in the US, were freehold.  Are some of them actually under a ground lease?



I actually did a lot of research before buying. 


"Often, people confuse fractional ownership with timeshares. Both fractional ownership and timeshare situations are common with vacation and resort-type properties. With a timeshare, however, you would purchase a specific amount of time to spend at the property, such as 3 weeks out of every year. You would not actually own any portion of the property. With fractional ownership, you would actually own the portion of the property you purchase."

http://www.ournewdenverhome.com/Fractional_Ownership/page_1979711.html

"Q: What do Timeshare owners really own?
A: When you own timeshare, you own future holidays. You do not, normally, own the property but the right of use for a specific number of years (say 30 years), or in perpetuity"

http://www.otr.bz/www/faq.php

"Occasionally, leasehold deeds are offered in perpetuity however many do not convey ownership of the land but merely the apartment or 'unit' of accommodation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-share


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## tonyh (Jan 27, 2008)

SDKath said:


> I had 3 sellers who were willing to sell WMH for $10,000 including a recent eBay auction for that amount before we went into escrow.  You just have to look past the listed prices at Redweek and other sites.  Those prices are unrealistically high from poor souls who think they can command prices similar to what they paid to the developer years ago.  I saw a WMH listed at $28,000 for a 2BR platinum!  Nice try.
> 
> I believe the new Palm Desert is selling for $35,000 for a Platinum 2BR LO.  Granted it's no Kaanapali or Cancun.  But it's doable.



I agree one can get WMH for $10k or less. As a matter of fact, I recently turned down an offer of $9.5k. However, Starwood is selling WDW for $38.9k (not $35k).

We all overpay to reach 5* because we have to buy some units from developers. By my calculation, the amount we overpay is $50-60k, compared to buying all resales. Is 5* worth it? It depends. It depends on the frequency and the type of travel you do. Besides SPG platinum, other benefits include: a) the ability to combine StarOptions; b) the ability to convert to StarPoints as late as Oct 31; c) 10% bonus StarPoints upon conversion; d) ability to waitlist while keeping another reservation; and e) potential for villa upgrade ahead of everyone else. All these benefits worth something, but are not easy to quantify. There's also a downside to owning all these weeks. We implicitly give up some vacation options and flexibility (unless we're willing to "write down" the value of these weeks). For example, my favorite resort in Maui is the Four Seasons in Wailea, but most likely I will stay at one of the Westin resorts in Kaanapali next time I go to Maui because the additional cost differential (to stay at the Four Seasons) is just too high to justify. Even when I travel to places where there's no SVO resort, I'd more likely choose the St. Regis over the Four Seasons, the Mandarin Orientals, the Peninsulas or the Ritz Carltons, even though I think St. Regis is a notch below the others in terms of quality and service. Yes, we can rent out our weeks and book something else, but there's a huge "bid-offer" spread: we don't get in rent anywhere close to what Starwood charges on the other side.


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## stevens397 (Jan 27, 2008)

As a Starwood Platinum, I can vouch that I have had the most amazing wuite upgrades in Europe - truly living "lifestyes of the rich and famous!"  But you do need to appreciate that it's a crapshoot.  There will be times you don't get them.

Each vacation you have to decide if you want or need a suite.  If you feel you need it for that vacation, you might choose to use extra points to guarantee it - and you don't have to be Platinum to do that.

What I do is check  our the hotels prior to making the reservation.  There are numerous European hotels where even Junior Suites are two separate rooms rather than one larger one.  And they are usually available for a very slight point value.  For example, we stayed at the Prince des Galles in Paris and paid 14,500 per night for the Junior Suite rather than 12,000 for the standard room.  In the end, we got a magnificent full suite but the important part is that we would have been comfortable and happy without it.

It's a game and you need to take the time to learn how to lay!


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## davidahn (Feb 22, 2008)

*$190K Not Bad*

Zinupe,

You're paying less than I'm going to pay for 5*/Platinum, and I'm doing 2 resales + 2 developer weeks! I'm in the process of picking up 2 WKORV resale EY OF-Deluxe's at about $55K each ($105K each from developer), and 2 WPORVs developer EY 2-BR LO's at $52K each, for a total of $214K (would have been $314K all from developer). I'm only being offered 80K SP's per developer week, and I'm trying to use an Explorer Package to get 80K more, for a total of 240K points, plus using the Amex SVO card for an additional 105K points, for 345K SP's total. I may try to finagle 100K SP's per week purchased, but that may be tough; that would net 280K points.

But I'm with you, I decided I'm going to buy where I actually want to stay, so I'm willing to pay extra (even at Ka'anapali, I could get OF non-deluxe for $45-50K each, but I like the extra 150 s.f. of space the deluxe offers). With 4 fabulous Hawaii weeks, we can stay up to 8 weeks in HI (using lockouts), or trade for up to 16-32 weeks in other resorts during off-peak times (we usually don't travel during "peak" seasons). We'll probably end up renting a few weeks to recoup our MF's, and use the rest. As far as the SP's, I sure wish I had 750K like you! My wife and I are planning on using points + cash to stretch our points out farther, and hoping to get upgrades on our hotel stays with our platinum SPG; hoping to make them last a few weeks of hotel stays, and maybe get some airfare too, since they offer the 20% bonus.

On a side note, all you TUG cheapskates (kidding, take it easy) with your $90,000 5*/platinum pathways are contributing to the dwindling SPG upgrades; if it required a $200-300K investment, there'd be a lot fewer platinum members. Still, it can't all be attributed to SVO owners, since distributed over 850 properties and 365 nights a year, the odds of 2000 SVO platinum members (assuming this is the "limit" Starwood has set) bumping into each other at the same properties is slim except during peak times. The exact number of SVO-earned and hotel-earned platinum members is unknown, AFAIK, but it must be growing, as Westin continues to build more resorts. I continue to be hopeful that when I'm platinum (in 1-2 months after resales completed and requalified by developer units), I'll travel to destinations during the right seasons to get upgraded. 

David


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## SDKath (Feb 22, 2008)

davidahn said:


> Zinupe,
> 
> You're paying less than I'm going to pay for 5*/Platinum, and I'm doing 2 resales + 2 developer weeks! I'm in the process of picking up 2 WKORV resale EY OF-Deluxe's at about $55K each ($105K each from developer), and 2 WPORVs developer EY 2-BR LO's at $52K each, for a total of $214K (would have been $314K all from developer). I'm only being offered 80K SP's per developer week, and I'm trying to use an Explorer Package to get 80K more, for a total of 240K points, plus using the Amex SVO card for an additional 105K points, for 345K SP's total. I may try to finagle 100K SP's per week purchased, but that may be tough; that would net 280K points.
> 
> ...



One suggestion David -- WPORV is now allowing you to choose the unit you buy if you are willing to pay an additional 10-15% (I can't remember).   Since you are planning on purchasing to stay there each year, I would consider securing a nice building in the front (perhaps in a corner).  Kind of like the idea of an OF at WKORV.

Then again, if you don't care what building you will be in and don't want to pay the extra, why not consider buying at the new Riverfront from Starwood.  Then you "diversify" your investment and WPORV should be a relatively easy trade in.  MF will be less and renting out ski weeks is actually easier than renting out HI if you have the right week.

Just an alternate approach -- Katherine


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## davidahn (Feb 26, 2008)

SDKath said:


> One suggestion David -- WPORV is now allowing you to choose the unit you buy if you are willing to pay an additional 10-15% (I can't remember).   Since you are planning on purchasing to stay there each year, I would consider securing a nice building in the front (perhaps in a corner).  Kind of like the idea of an OF at WKORV.
> 
> Then again, if you don't care what building you will be in and don't want to pay the extra, why not consider buying at the new Riverfront from Starwood.  Then you "diversify" your investment and WPORV should be a relatively easy trade in.  MF will be less and renting out ski weeks is actually easier than renting out HI if you have the right week.
> 
> Just an alternate approach -- Katherine



Thanks for the suggestion, Katherine. I JUST talked to a salesperson at WKORV who told me there were no view rooms, that the view was "all the same." She said there was only ONE class of interval. Are you sure about that? I'll check with her. BTW, I'm not very interested in staying at WPORV very often, just once to check it out, then every few years. I'm buying it for the 148.1K SO's and easy rentability for the least money from the developer (to requal resale WKORVs).

David


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## SDKath (Feb 26, 2008)

At WPORV everything is considered "island view".  However, I would think IV 5 buildings back facing another building is substantially less value than front building in the corner and close to the cliff/ocean.

WKORV definitely has the view categories (like OF)....  When you trade into II, you get no credit for your view though.  But I would think you'd never trade your HI properties with II because you'll never be able to recoup their "value".  Direct trade with an owner outside II will get you to Atlantis and anywhere else you want to go.

One thing to consider -- rentals aren't a given unless you secure a week 52 or equally high demand week.  Otherwise, there are many, many for both WKORV and WPORV available (see redweek.com for current rates), and you may not get your MF back, let alone trying to recoup the $$ spent on the purchase.  The SOs can be had cheaper buying something on the mainland with less MF.

Just keep your options open before you committ so much $$!  Only saying this because we went through the same thought process and purchases before we "saw the light" and changed our mind (before it was too late, thank goodness).

Katherine


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## DeniseM (Feb 26, 2008)

davidahn said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, Katherine. I JUST talked to a salesperson at WKORV who told me there were no view rooms, that the view was "all the same." She said there was only ONE class of interval. Are you sure about that? I'll check with her. BTW, I'm not very interested in staying at WPORV very often, just once to check it out, then every few years. I'm buying it for the 148.1K SO's and easy rentability for the least money from the developer (to requal resale WKORVs).
> 
> David



All units are "deeded" island view, but in reality some units are closer to the cliff than others and therefore will have a better view.  Kath was asking if you are going to buy a _fixed unit_ (you get the same unit every time) to guarantee the best view.  If you aren't going to use it on a regular basis though, it probably isn't worth the premium you would pay.


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 26, 2008)

I recall for WPORV it was 10% for a fixed week, and then an additional 10% for a fixed unit.

I managed with little effort (2x so far) to rent out our WKORV OF studio for about the MFs.

Is this worth the premium? probably not - but certainly easier to rent than IV/OV - and that is worth something (although still not financially worth the premium). For WPORV - watch out here - while you could buy a top floor corner unit closest to the ocean and have it somehow be more valuable (i say this because these comments are being stated sight-unseen) - since the view is catagorically the same (IV) - it will be difficult to get this concept across in a rental ad like you can if it were catagorized as OF like with the WKORV/N resorts.  Is this worth the 20% additional premium...?


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## dss (Feb 26, 2008)

I have also had excellent success renting out my WKORV Studio when necessary. That was one of the reasons I felt comfortable taking the plunge instead of going with OV.

As for WPORV and fixing a unit/week. I have been led to understand you can fix a week for 10% and then fix your unit for an additional 10% but you cannot just fix a unit without attaching that to a specific week. I may have received incorrect information which would be great as I would be interested in fixing a unit on a floating basis if that is possible. 

If you do need to fix a week in order to fix a unit, to me that negates any rental value upside as you would have to get very lucky on timing.


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## davidahn (Feb 27, 2008)

*Agreed*



dss said:


> I have also had excellent success renting out my WKORV Studio when necessary. That was one of the reasons I felt comfortable taking the plunge instead of going with OV.
> 
> As for WPORV and fixing a unit/week. I have been led to understand you can fix a week for 10% and then fix your unit for an additional 10% but you cannot just fix a unit without attaching that to a specific week. I may have received incorrect information which would be great as I would be interested in fixing a unit on a floating basis if that is possible.
> 
> If you do need to fix a week in order to fix a unit, to me that negates any rental value upside as you would have to get very lucky on timing.



I agree, if you're stuck with a fixed week, NOT worth it. It's probably better just to book early to get the better views.


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