# Current use year points not transferring to new owner



## VAlegacy (Apr 17, 2021)

I had a contract transfer over recently that had all previous use year points available and the points didn't transfer over.  I had a direct line of communication with the previous owner with this purchase.  The owner had 2 contracts total and I bought only one of them.  
Weeks after everything was done, the seller told me they still had the points from the contract that I purchased in their account.

I think its likely that the title transfer department only transfers points if its the only contract on an owners account, regardless of what contract the points are following.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe this is common knowledge, but an eye opener to me and something to be aware of when making future purchase agreements.


----------



## Eric B (Apr 17, 2021)

Seems like an odd situation because those points wouldn't ordinarily still exist after their expiration unless the owner had used PFD to shift them from the prior year to the current year.  (They wound up being there anyway because Wyndham did that for everyone.)  My guess is that Wyndham doesn't view those points as being truly associated with the contract that was transferred, but instead a separate bucket of points that don't have ARP, etc., because they represent the usage of the ownership for the prior year rather than the usage after the date of transfer.  Similar things happen with transfers in other systems (e.g., Vistana - banked points remain with the person banking them).


----------



## jules54 (Apr 17, 2021)

When this has happened to me in the past without direct contact with the previous owner it was on the Estopple how many points were remaining for that contract year. As I think has been stated if the points weren’t from that specific contract they won’t transfer. I have simply called Wyndham owner services and explained the situation and keep insisting those points below to me. I’ve always received the points transferred into my account. Make certain you have all the information in front of you like contract number, previous owners name and his account number if you have it. It might take a few calls, but somebody has the power to push the right button. 
If that fail can’t the previous owner just have Wyndham transfer the points from his account to yours? Or doesn’t Wyndham do that anymore?


----------



## troy12n (Apr 17, 2021)

jules54 said:


> If that fail can’t the previous owner just have Wyndham transfer the points from his account to yours? Or doesn’t Wyndham do that anymore?



Wyndham owners can't transfer points between themselves like Worldmark and other systems can. Maybe that ability existed in the distant past, but not since I have been an owner.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 17, 2021)

VAlegacy said:


> I had a contract transfer over recently that had all previous use year points available and the points didn't transfer over.  I had a direct line of communication with the previous owner with this purchase.  The owner had 2 contracts total and I bought only one of them.
> Weeks after everything was done, the seller told me they still had the points from the contract that I purchased in their account.
> 
> I think its likely that the title transfer department only transfers points if its the only contract on an owners account, regardless of what contract the points are following.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> Maybe this is common knowledge, but an eye opener to me and something to be aware of when making future purchase agreements.


If points were available or not all points from contract purchased should have transferred to new owner. . If seller didn't exit his ownership completely and If seller had no current use year points available seller would have a negative balance on his account. Wyndham would be calling to collect $12/1000 on the negative balance. I had in-depth conversations with Wyndham on why they would transfer points if they were available or not. I also was asked to pay the $12/1000 on a negative balance of 616,000 a few years back.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 17, 2021)

troy12n said:


> Wyndham owners can't transfer points between themselves like Worldmark and other systems can. Maybe that ability existed in the distant past, but not since I have been an owner.


Yea but the seller could book reservations for the buyer to make this situation right. I would call Wyndham and be surprised if it isn't corrected.


----------



## troy12n (Apr 17, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Yea but the seller could book reservations for the buyer to make this situation right. I would call Wyndham and be surprised if it isn't corrected.



That's a good point, unless the OP needed those points in conjunction with their account to make a larger reservation. Let's hope Wyndham can figure it out


----------



## VAlegacy (Apr 17, 2021)

troy12n said:


> That's a good point, unless the OP needed those points in conjunction with their account to make a larger reservation. Let's hope Wyndham can figure it out


Well in that case then I have no clue..  just seen posts where it's hit or miss on receiving points..
No didn't need them.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 17, 2021)

VAlegacy said:


> Well in that case then I have no clue..  just seen posts where it's hit or miss on receiving points..
> No didn't need them.


I was told by Wyndham that all points transfer if seller had any available current use year points or not. If a seller still has ownership in Wyndham after a sale and has no current use year points in their bucket to transfer it will create a negative on their account. This was to prevent buyers from recieving a contract with no points available for current use year.  Wyndham would not send me a email stating any of these terms that we discussed. We all should  know by now policy can change when they feel it is necessary.


----------



## Braindead (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I was told by Wyndham that all points transfer if seller had any available current use year points or not. If a seller still has ownership in Wyndham after a sale and has no current use year points in their bucket to transfer it will create a negative on their account. This was to prevent buyers from recieving a contract with no points available for current use year.  Wyndham would not send me a email stating any of these terms that we discussed. We all should  know by now policy can change when they feel it is necessary.


When did Wyndham tell you this? Two years a go or even before that?  It hasn’t been that way for over a year.

If there are no current use year points when a contract transfers the buyer receives no current use year points.
Wyndham saw what some owners [you for example] were doing & put a stop to it.

Owners like you always trying to find a way to take advantage of the system only hurts the rest of us owners.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

Braindead said:


> When did Wyndham tell you this? Two years a go or even before that?  It hasn’t been that way for over a year.
> 
> If there are no current use year points when a contract transfers the buyer receives no current use year points.
> Wyndham saw what some owners [you for example] were doing & put a stop to it.
> ...


Like I said policy can change at any time and what was true last week may not be this week. Do you have anything in writing from Wyndham's stating the policy or rules on how points transfer at time of sale. I was considered a trader of deeds. What I did was pickup deeds at less then $100 all in then use all my points personally. All within Wyndham's policy at the time. I would then sell or give away the deeds  without current use year points buyer paying all closing and transfer costs . I also made it clear to buyers all deeds were sold without any current use year points.  Wyndham was the buyer on a few and saw no harm in picking up ownership at $500 without current use year points. Please explain how did I hurt the rest of the owners when I used all points personally and never rented any. Wyndham is the biggest trader of deeds with Ovations or Certified exit do you feel they are taking advantage of the system and hurting all owners?


----------



## Eric B (Apr 18, 2021)

Actually, what OP had asked about wasn’t current use year points, but prior year that had been deposited into the current year.  I still don’t believe Wyndham would transfer those because they represent usage prior to transfer of the underlying deed and Wyndham doesn’t transfer points between members.  There would also be the difficulty of figuring out which contract they were actually from; could be done if the seller used ARP from the other contract, but tough to trace.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

Eric B said:


> Actually, what OP had asked about wasn’t current use year points, but prior year that had been deposited into the current year.  I still don’t believe Wyndham would transfer those because they represent usage prior to transfer of the underlying deed and Wyndham doesn’t transfer points between members.  There would also be the difficulty of figuring out which contract they were actually from; could be done if the seller used ARP from the other contract, but tough to trace.


Points are all in one bucket does it matter what contract they came from? Points being from prior year could be the problem but should they be considered current use year points now? Like I said the seller could book reservations for the buyer to make it right if Wyndham refuses to help.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Like I said policy can change at any time and what was true last week may not be this week. Do you have anything in writing from Wyndham's stating the policy or rules on how points transfer at time of sale. I was considered a trader of deeds. What I did was pickup deeds at less then $100 all in then use all my points personally. All within Wyndham's policy at the time. I would then sell or give away the deeds without current use year points buyer paying all closing and transfer costs . I also made it clear to buyers all deeds were sold without any current use year points. Wyndham was the buyer on a few and saw no harm in picking up ownership at $500 without current use year points. Please explain how did I hurt the rest of the owners when I used all points personally and never rented any. Wyndham is the biggest trader of deeds with Ovations or Certified exit do you feel they are taking advantage of the system and hurting all owners?



Did you actually use all of the current use year points from every contract you acquired during that use year, or did you transfer the current use year points to future use years and then dump the contracts? If the latter, this is akin to stripping contracts and something a few megarenters did via the old credit pooling function. They would acquire resale contracts - strip the points from the contracts - then offload them as quickly as they could. These were loopholes that Wyndham had to close because megarenters were gaming the system. 

Did you pay for all of the current use year points you actually used? So if you picked up a 500k point resale contract with MFs of $6.00/1000 for example, did you actually pay $3k in MFs for the 500k points you used - whether in current or future use years? I’m gonna say no - your goal was to attempt to get something for as little outlay as possible. I’m guessing you acquired the contracts, immediately booked the points or transferred them to future use years, and then resold the contracts as quickly as possible, perhaps having to only pay MFs for 90-180 days and paying only a quarter to half of the stated annual MF rate for the points used. This is the very definition of using a loophole and gaming the system in my view. 

When Wyndham trades deeds - they are recycling the inventory and reinvesting a portion of those funds generated from new timeshare sales into initiatives that benefit all owners over time, at least in theory. When you trade deeds - who benefits exactly? 

If you weren’t paying for the full amount of MFs for the points used that you acquired via resale - one could easily make the argument that other owners are paying for your gaming of the system. You are using a system for a fraction of the price that should have been paid - and that has to be made up somewhere else - either from the new owner purchasing the stripped contract - or via slightly higher collective MF rate increases for all other owners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Like I said policy can change at any time and what was true last week may not be this week. Do you have anything in writing from Wyndham's stating the policy or rules on how points transfer at time of sale. I was considered a trader of deeds. What I did was pickup deeds at less then $100 all in then use all my points personally. All within Wyndham's policy at the time. I would then sell or give away the deeds  without current use year points buyer paying all closing and transfer costs . I also made it clear to buyers all deeds were sold without any current use year points.  Wyndham was the buyer on a few and saw no harm in picking up ownership at $500 without current use year points. Please explain how did I hurt the rest of the owners when I used all points personally and never rented any. Wyndham is the biggest trader of deeds with Ovations or Certified exit do you feel they are taking advantage of the system and hurting all owners?


It’s not against Wyndham’s policy to sell a contract without the current use year points, it’s between the buyer & seller to settle any issues just as it should be. Wyndham just stopped giving away points if all use year points are not available. In your case if Wyndham was the buyer then any issues get resolved between you & Wyndham.


----------



## troy12n (Apr 18, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you weren’t paying for the full amount of MFs for the points used that you acquired via resale - one could easily make the argument that other owners are paying for your gaming of the system. You are using a system for a fraction of the price that should have been paid - and that has to be made up somewhere else - either from the new owner purchasing the stripped contract - or via slightly higher collective MF rate increases for all other owners.



Not hard to figure out why they closed that loophole...

Normal owners subsidizing mega renters and deed flippers... sounds like normal working Americans subsidizing the mega rich who exploit tax loopholes, but I digress... If only our congress was so proactive to close these loopholes as Wyndham was. Again, I digress...


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Did you actually use all of the current use year points from every contract you acquired during that use year, or did you transfer the current use year points to future use years and then dump the contracts? If the latter, this is akin to stripping contracts and something a few megarenters did via the old credit pooling function. They would acquire resale contracts - strip the points from the contracts - then offload them as quickly as they could. These were loopholes that Wyndham had to close because megarenters were gaming the system.
> 
> Did you pay for all of the current use year points you actually used? So if you picked up a 500k point resale contract with MFs of $6.00/1000 for example, did you actually pay $3k in MFs for the 500k points you used - whether in current or future use years? I’m gonna say no - your goal was to attempt to get something for as little outlay as possible. I’m guessing you acquired the contracts, immediately booked the points or transferred them to future use years, and then resold the contracts as quickly as possible, perhaps having to only pay MFs for 90-180 days and paying only a quarter to half of the stated annual MF rate for the points used. This is the very definition of using a loophole and gaming the system in my view.
> 
> ...


Never moved points to a future use year. I personally booked and used all points available for the current use year. The stategy was buy in late summer or early fall. Hopefully contract transferred before end of use year. This would give me 2 years of use. I would use all points or transfer points to RCI. Selling a deed without current use year points is not stripping. I always sold or gave away with buyer agreeing to purchasing without current use year points available. How would this cause all owners maintenance fees to go up?  New buyer agreed to pay maintenance fees at time of transfer. Wyndham was a participant buying my deeds without current use year points.  It was all clearly stated in contract. I recieved 616,000 points at a very low cost or almost free and Wyndham recieved four 154,000 point Grand Desert deeds at a cost of $1500 total. Wyndham also agreeed to purchase without current use year points and pay the maintenance fees. Ovations will also allow use of current year points. I use my ownership to meet my travel needs no gaming or taking advantage of VIP loopholes from my use. If you want to discuss loopholes and abuse lets talk about VIP owners. How many loopholes have been closed because of their abuse? Or lets talk about how the sales weasels sold more points and encouraged the abuse of loopholes. We can also debate the monthly fees paid on resale points that are used with VIP 50% discounts and free upgrades.  Should I just assume there is no abuse from VIP owners because they paid for privileges?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> Not hard to figure out why they closed that loophole...
> 
> Normal owners subsidizing mega renters and deed flippers... sounds like normal working Americans subsidizing the mega rich who exploit tax loopholes, but I digress... If only our congress was so proactive to close these loopholes as Wyndham was. Again, I digress...


Wyndham closed loopholes to eliminate the competition.  Its all about the $$$. Difference between Wyndham and I was the price we sold at. We both liked free inventory but I sold or gave away for less then $1/1000 Wyndham sells their Ovations/resale inventory for $100+/1000.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

Braindead said:


> It’s not against Wyndham’s policy to sell a contract without the current use year points, it’s between the buyer & seller to settle any issues just as it should be. Wyndham just stopped giving away points if all use year points are not available. In your case if Wyndham was the buyer then any issues get resolved between you & Wyndham.


Is a Negative balance a concern anymore?  Asking for a friend.


----------



## troy12n (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Wyndham closed loopholes to eliminate the competition.  Its all about the $$$. Difference between Wyndham and I was the price we sold at. We both liked free inventory but I sold or gave away for less then $1/1000 Wyndham sells their Ovations/resale inventory for $100+/1000.



You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that what was being done negatively affected owners by putting points into circulation that didn't exist... 

It artificially caused "inflation" so to speak, or at the least, negatively impacted availability. Because there were more points in circulation than should have existed.

I'm not sure if you are purposely being dishonest when it comes to this or not, but it's pretty apparent this behavior negatively affected "owners who weren't exploiting the loophole". I'm sure in some circles, it could even be considered fraud if the exploit was knowingly used for this purpose. Which it most certainly was. Whether or not the loophole existed or not, by exploiting it, an argument could be made that it was fraud... just throwing that out there.


----------



## CCdad (Apr 18, 2021)

Here’s an estoppel from an Ebay auction where the seller included it in the auction pictures. If the seller has unused points in their account in the current year, the points “should” transfer unless they were from the current year’s Points Deposit Forward bucket.

At one point (pre-Covid), Wyndham was warning sellers that they’d cancel current year’s seller reservations in order to transfer current points. But that was just too much trouble to ask their staff to try to administer.

My understanding was that no Credit Pool or Points Deposit Forward points will transfer to the buyer. That may have been a distant past “bonus” if a buyer ever received those points.


----------



## CCdad (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> If only our congress was so proactive to close these loopholes as Wyndham was. Again, I digress...



Yes, the Congress is particularly useful in handing out money without checks and balances. And they themselves and/or others (celebrities in the entertainment industry, professional athletes, etc) take advantage of the PPE loan provisions to get an interest free loan. Some loans may be eligible to be forgiven and never repaid.

Congress also created a situation whereby both the parents of children in a divorce can effectively claim the Economic Impact Payment (EIP) for the eligible dependent children. The Treasury department has paid the EIP based upon the previously filed tax return (either the filed 2018/2019 tax return for the March 2020 EIP payment).

So if the parents decide in their divorce decree to alternate who gets to claim the dependency exemptions every year, effectively one parent can get paid the EIP even if they weren’t eligible to claim the child as a dependent that year. Then the parent claiming the dependency exemption for that year also claims the EIP using the Rebate Recovery Credit on their tax return.

And the IRS is well aware of this situation and has issued public guidance to the effect that neither parent is excepted to repay the duplicate EIP amounts that have been paid on the same dependent(s). Nice, but who’s paying for all this free money?

And don’t get me started on the unemployment fraud that’s going on ... just wait until folks get issued either 2020 or 2021 1099-G‘s for unemployment, when they were never out of work and never received the supposed unemployment funds that someone else claimed fraudulently on their SSN.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that what was being done negatively affected owners by putting points into circulation that didn't exist...
> 
> It artificially caused "inflation" so to speak, or at the least, negatively impacted availability. Because there were more points in circulation than should have existed.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are purposely being dishonest when it comes to this or not, but it's pretty apparent this behavior negatively affected "owners who weren't exploiting the loophole". I'm sure in some circles, it could even be considered fraud if the exploit was knowingly used for this purpose. Which it most certainly was. Whether or not the loophole existed or not, by exploiting it, an argument could be made that it was fraud... just throwing that out there.


Where did these points come from that were "put into the system"? I only used current use year points then sold with no current use year points available.  How and where did points mysteriously become available or "put in system"? It is Impossible to put points in system that are not available.  You also can not sell a deed without future use year points available. All of the deeds I sold it was cleary stated no current use year points available. If it was fraud why would  Wyndham buy 4 from me in 2019 with no points available.  Wyndham Ovations will take bake deeds with out current use year points. Why would Wyndham buy and transfer knowing no points were available for current use year if it was fraud?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> It artificially caused "inflation" so to speak, or at the least, negatively impacted availability. Because there were more points in circulation than should have existed.


Sounds like what happens when a VIP owner uses resale points with VIP 50% discounts and free upgrades. 1 million resale points can be turned into 2 million just by using the 50% discount.  We can also discuss the abuse of rental reservations that are used with these resale points taking out availability for owners personal use. VIP owners don't like to talk about the free HK's or GC's that affects and costs all owners.


----------



## CCdad (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> You also can not sell a deed without future use year points available.



I don’t think that’s an entirely true statement.

I think Wyndham has put better procedures in place with respect to points transferring with the contract sale. So that if the seller happened to borrow a future year’s points for a reservation that’s already been completed, the buyer may not receive full future year’ points when the contract eventually transfers. They will adjust the future year’s points transferred to reflect that only the points removed from the seller’s account is ultimately transferred into the buyer’s account.

I know that creating a negative attribute in an owner account should be a rare exception (be that a negative points from a contract transfer, negative GCs, negative HK credits, etc), but negative GCs have been reported recently when an owner’s VIP status has been downgraded or lapsed after the attribute was already used.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

CCdad said:


> Yes, the Congress is particularly useful in handing out money without checks and balances. And they themselves and/or others (celebrities in the entertainment industry, professional athletes, etc) take advantage of the PPE loan provisions to get an interest free loan. Some loans may be eligible to be forgiven and never repaid.
> 
> Congress also created a situation whereby both the parents of children in a divorce can effectively claim the Economic Impact Payment (EIP) for the eligible dependent children. The Treasury department has paid the EIP based upon the previously filed tax return (either the filed 2018/2019 tax return for the March 2020 EIP payment).
> 
> ...





CCdad said:


> I don’t think that’s an entirely true statement.
> 
> I think Wyndham has put better procedures in place with respect to points transferring with the contract sale. So that if the seller happened to borrow a future year’s points for a reservation that’s already been completed, the buyer may not receive full future year’ points when the contract eventually transfers. They will adjust the future year’s points transferred to reflect that only the points removed from the seller’s account is ultimately transferred into the buyer’s account.
> 
> I know that creating a negative attribute in an owner account should be a rare exception (be that a negative points from a contract transfer, negative GCs, negative HK credits, etc), but negative GCs have been reported recently when an owner’s VIP status has been downgraded or lapsed after the attribute was already used.


Good grief don't get me going about politics!

If future use year points were used the seller would have to pay $12/1000 to proceed with transfer. We all know its a moving target and can change without notice.


----------



## troy12n (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Where did these points come from that were "put into the system"? I only used current use year points then sold with no current use year points available.  How and where did points mysteriously become available or "put in system"? It is Impossible to put points in system that are not available.  You also can not sell a deed without future use year points available. All of the deeds I sold it was cleary stated no current use year points available. If it was fraud why would  Wyndham buy 4 from me in 2019 with no points available.  Wyndham Ovations will take bake deeds with out current use year points. Why would Wyndham buy and transfer knowing no points were available for current use year if it was fraud?



Maybe i'm misunderstanding, but it seems like what you explained happened was, someone who had used all of their points for the current or a future UY then sold their contract to you, with a balance of zero points. After you received the contract, Wyndham then replenished all the points from the contract. So in effect, say this was a 500,000 point contract, it in effect was a 1 million contract, because the previous owner got use of their 500k, and then once you had it, you also got 500k.

So that's 500k points which didn't truly exist before, which were generated, and used, which should have existed. Somewhere, somehow, that affected availability and artificially put downward pressure on inventory...

Duplicate this process by millions of points and you can see how it would negatively affect inventory, and owners.

Unless I am missing something, it appears you took part in this process knowingly, hence to me, it seems like fraud. What am I missing?


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Sounds like what happens when a VIP owner uses resale points with VIP 50% discounts and free upgrades. 1 million resale points can be turned into 2 million just by using the 50% discount. We can also discuss the abuse of rental reservations that are used with these resale points taking out availability for owners personal use. VIP owners don't like to talk about the free HK's or GC's that affects and costs all owners.



VIPs also paid tens of thousands or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars for those privileges that Wyndham knowingly grants them. How much are you going to keep parroting the same tired old ideas here on TUG? Do you think if you keep saying these things that they will miraculously come true? What is your end goal here? To eliminate the entire VIP program? Isn’t the entire intent of the VIP program to grant benefits to those who have made the largest dollar investments into Wyndham? 

How much did you pay for using 616,000 points in comparison? You already told us - almost nothing. You would pay about six months of MFs, give or take, for two years of points. You paid about 25% of what you should have paid for the privilege of using those points. There’s no such thing as a free lunch - at a macro level if you paid dramatically less - someone has to make up the difference. Simple logic at work here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Is a Negative balance a concern anymore?  Asking for a friend.


From what you’ve posted in the past Wyndham was the buyer of your contract that gave you a negative point balance. Same answer as before that any issues get resolved between the buyer & seller. You’ve also posted in the past that you didn’t end up paying for the negative points balance so it was resolved between the buyer Wyndham in this case & you the seller, so why do you keep harping about it when it was resolved in your favor?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> Maybe i'm misunderstanding, but it seems like what you explained happened was, someone who had used all of their points for the current or a future UY then sold their contract to you, with a balance of zero points. After you received the contract, Wyndham then replenished all the points from the contract. So in effect, say this was a 500,000 point contract, it in effect was a 1 million contract, because the previous owner got use of their 500k, and then once you had it, you also got 500k.
> 
> So that's 500k points which didn't truly exist before, which were generated, and used, which should have existed. Somewhere, somehow, that affected availability and artificially put downward pressure on inventory...
> 
> ...


No I bought contracts with all use year points available,  I personally used all points then sold contracts without current use year points available.  This was until a negative balance became a problem in 2018 . If you sold a deed without having any current use year points this would creat a negative balance in the sellers account. The reason for a negative balance was because Wyndham was transfering all points to buyer if they were available or not. In 2018 Wyndham told me the negative balance would zero out at the start of new use year. Then in 2019 same thing happened with a negative balance. I bought 4 deeds used all points then sold creating another 616,000 negative balance. All was good until Wyndham financial services called looking for a payment of $12/1000 on the negative balance. I laughed at their suggestion of me paying for points that I had the right to use. I also asked why would they give away points that were no longer available then ask me for payment without notice or fair warning. None of this mattered to Wyndham they expected payment.  I sent a copy of estoppel stating what points transfer picture attached. They weren't budging and still wanted paid. I then let them know Wyndham was the buyer on all 4 deeds and how could they charge me for points they gave themselves and bought knowing none were available. A week later they dropped the demand for payment but advised if a negative balance was created in future payment would be expected.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> VIPs also paid tens of thousands or on some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars for those privileges that Wyndham knowingly grants them. How much are you going to keep parroting the same tired old ideas here on TUG? Do you think if you keep saying these things that they will miraculously going to come true? What is your end goal here? To eliminate the entire VIP program? Isn’t the entire intent of the VIP program to grant benefits to those who have made the largest dollar investments into Wyndham?
> 
> How much did you pay for using 616,000 points in comparison? You already told us - almost nothing. You would pay about six months of MFs, give or take, for two years of points. You paid about 25% of what you should have paid for the privilege of using those points. There’s no such thing as a free lunch - at a macro level if you paid dramatically less - someone has to make up the difference. Simple logic at work here.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinions and know all the work you put in helping to fix Wyndhams online experiance but I disagree with your assumptions on how I use my ownership. So if you paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and Wyndham allows the privileges and discounts its all good and is not a abuse or loophole but if you pay pennies on the dollar and create more value buying, using points and selling the ownership its not ok and some how it is a loophole or abuse? Remember cancel and rebook was also considered a VIP benefit at one time even if it was never listed in directory as one.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

troy12n said:


> Maybe i'm misunderstanding, but it seems like what you explained happened was, someone who had used all of their points for the current or a future UY then sold their contract to you, with a balance of zero points. After you received the contract, Wyndham then replenished all the points from the contract. So in effect, say this was a 500,000 point contract, it in effect was a 1 million contract, because the previous owner got use of their 500k, and then once you had it, you also got 500k.
> 
> So that's 500k points which didn't truly exist before, which were generated, and used, which should have existed. Somewhere, somehow, that affected availability and artificially put downward pressure on inventory...
> 
> ...


No I bought contracts with all use year points available,  I personally used all points then sold contracts without current use year points available.  This was until a negative balance became a problem in 2018 . If you sold a deed without having any current use year points this would creat a negative balance in the sellers account. The reason for a negative balance was because Wyndham was transfering all points to buyer if they were available or not. In 2018 Wyndham told me the negative balance would zero out at the start of new use year. Then in 2019 same thing happened with a negative balance. I bought 4 deeds used all points then sold creating another 616,000 negative balance. All was good until Wyndham financial services called looking for a payment of $12/1000 on the negative balance. I laughed at their suggestion of me paying for points that I had the right to use. I also asked why would they give away points that were no longer available then ask me for payment without notice or fair warning. None of this mattered to Wyndham they expected payment.  I sent a copy of estoppel stating what points transfer picture attached. They weren't budging and still wanted paid. I then let them know Wyndham was the buyer on all 4 deeds and how could they charge me for points they gave themselves and bought knowing none were available. A week later they dropped the demand for payment but advised if a negative balance was created in future payment would be expected.


----------



## Braindead (Apr 18, 2021)

This thread is a classic example the harm that can come from one poster spewed crap postings. Last year I had an estoppel & signed contract with all current use year points on a very large contract & when it transferred zero current use year points. What happened to the points? After the deed was filed & sent to Wyndham the owner dumped all the current use year points into RCI. I wonder where someone would get that idea, surely not here from a certain poster!!

The poster thinks this is a game & loves the attention & never realizes the harm it causes to others that comes with his antics.


----------



## Braindead (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I then let them know Wyndham was the buyer on all 4 deeds and how could they charge me for points they gave themselves and bought knowing none were available. A week later they dropped the demand for payment but advised if a negative balance was created in future payment would be expected.


Thank You for confirming my previous post. So why do you keep crying the blues about it for years & especially when it was resolved in your favor??


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

Braindead said:


> This thread is a classic example the harm that can come from one poster crap skewed postings. Last year I had an estoppel & signed contract with all current use year points on a very large contract & when it transferred zero current use year points. What happened to the points? After the deed was filed & sent to Wyndham the owner dumped all the current use year points into RCI. I wonder where someone would get that idea, surely not here from a certain poster!!


Sorry to hear this Stanley. It seems like the seller did you wrong. Did you buy from a reputable reseller, what was purchase price, resort location, transfer date, and was there any recourse to recieve what was agreed upon?
Without all details its hard to calculate the time it will take to recoup the sunk cost.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

Braindead said:


> Thank You for confirming my previous post. So why do you keep crying the blues about it for years & especially when it was resolved in your favor??


Just posting information that maybe helpful to someone else. Im sure Im not the last one that Wyndham will try to steam roll. If I caved and paid the 7k it would of helped who?


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I use my ownership to meet my travel needs no gaming or taking advantage of VIP loopholes from my use. If you want to discuss loopholes and abuse lets talk about VIP owners. How many loopholes have been closed because of their abuse? Or lets talk about how the sales weasels sold more points and encouraged the abuse of loopholes. We can also debate the monthly fees paid on resale points that are used with VIP 50% discounts and free upgrades. Should I just assume there is no abuse from VIP owners because they paid for privileges?



Yes, that is exactly what you should assume since Wyndham is well aware of the fact that 5% of their ownership holds resale contracts, a smaller portion of which are also VIP owners. Unless you have objective facts to back up your claims - what you are parroting are just your own assertions based upon no facts. 

Name one loophole that has been abused by VIPs since 2016 that has been closed due to abuse. AFAIK it was the megarenters prior to 2016 that were the primary abusers of the system in the past - most of which were VIPs. Since that time, please name one loophole. And mind you as we have repeatedly discussed in the past - the use of resale points by VIP owners is NOT a loophole - as there is no strategy VIPs are using to game the system - the system is currently working as designed. The introduction of the Voyager website back in 2016 made major changes to eliminate cancel and rebook along with changes to eliminate the credit pooling system, coupled with forcibly removing the pool of megarenters that were in point of fact gaming the system. Could Wyndham make changes to how resale contracts are honored in the future? Of course - but the actual facts don’t support your parroted lines at this time. If they really did - don’t you think Wyndham would change the system now? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CCdad (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Good grief don't get me going about politics!
> 
> If future use year points were used the seller would have to pay $12/1000 to proceed with transfer. We all know its a moving target and can change without notice.



Dominic - please stop spouting hypothetical nonsense that’s no longer true.

Wyndham may have done this just because they thought they could bully you. You held your ground, so they backed down. Bravo!

If a seller either borrows for a reservation or moves future use year points into RCI just prior to the contract transferring, Wyndham will now just transfer the “remaining available” future use year points to the buyer. 

They don’t artificially create a negative balance in the seller’s account and then try to extract $12 per 1K points. Hasn’t happened; except maybe only to you.

That’s why the wording in the estoppel to both the buyer/seller was changed. It’s similar to the wording in the letter the buyer receives from title and deeding after the transfer is complete. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## meetseti (Apr 18, 2021)

So what can a potential resale buyer expect? Some resale listings say all of the current use year points are available; some say none; and others list a partial number.

Is the buyer likely to get what the listing describes, or is it a roll of the dice?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

meetseti said:


> So what can a potential resale buyer expect? Some resale listings say all of the current use year points are available; some say none; and others list a partial number.
> 
> Is the buyer likely to get what the listing describes, or is it a roll of the dice?


Buyer beware it can be a Roll of the dice. Most ebay sellers will not guarantee that current use years points will transfer. The last deed I transfered in a month ago came in loaded will all current use year points but this was not the case in the OP's original post.


----------



## Eric B (Apr 18, 2021)

VAlegacy said:


> I had a contract transfer over recently that had all previous use year points available and the points didn't transfer over.  I had a direct line of communication with the previous owner with this purchase.  The owner had 2 contracts total and I bought only one of them.
> Weeks after everything was done, the seller told me they still had the points from the contract that I purchased in their account.
> 
> I think its likely that the title transfer department only transfers points if its the only contract on an owners account, regardless of what contract the points are following.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> Maybe this is common knowledge, but an eye opener to me and something to be aware of when making future purchase agreements.





dgalati said:


> Buyer beware it can be a Roll of the dice. Most ebay sellers will not guarantee that current use years points will transfer. The last deed I transfered in a month ago came in loaded will all current use year points but this was not the case in the OP's original post.



For your convenience, I’ve quoted the original post here.  As has been pointed out, the issue was with previous year points, deposited as a result of the pandemic, not current use year points.  The issue you are complaining about is unrelated to OP’s concerns and the remainder of this thread.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

CCdad said:


> If a seller either borrows for a reservation or moves future use year points into RCI just prior to the contract transferring, Wyndham will now just transfer the “remaining available” future use year points to the buyer.


@Braindead had this happen to him but ownership arrived without points available for use. I don't think Wyndham will transfer a deed without future use year points available.


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Apr 18, 2021)

meetseti said:


> So what can a potential resale buyer expect? Some resale listings say all of the current use year points are available; some say none; and others list a partial number.
> 
> Is the buyer likely to get what the listing describes, or is it a roll of the dice?



Just assume you get what you get. Most resale listings are old people exiting their ownership and not knowing about Ovations and using those Timeshare Exit companies, so your chances of getting current use year points is pretty good. Either way, you're saving thousands of dollars compared to retail so not getting current use year points isn't the end of the world in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 18, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Just assume you get what you get. Most resale listings are old people exiting their ownership and not knowing about Ovations and using those Timeshare Exit companies, so your chances of getting current use year points is pretty good. Either way, you're saving thousands of dollars compared to retail so not getting current use year points isn't the end of the world in the grand scheme of things.


Pretty much sums it all up. Especially if you pay less then $100 with all closing included in purchase price. Its another reason to buy a Jan 1st use year in the late summer.


----------



## troy12n (Apr 18, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Just assume you get what you get. Most resale listings are old people exiting their ownership and not knowing about Ovations and using those Timeshare Exit companies, so your chances of getting current use year points is pretty good. Either way, you're saving thousands of dollars compared to retail so not getting current use year points isn't the end of the world in the grand scheme of things.



Well, the flip side of that is if you were expecting full UY points, and it's a January contract that you just bought, you would be spending 8 months of MF and getting absolutely nothing out of it... i'd be pretty upset about this too. Especially if it was advertised about having all current UY points available. If it's December, and the UY is about to roll over, different story.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I respect your opinions and know all the work you put in helping to fix Wyndhams online experiance but I disagree with your assumptions on how I use my ownership. So if you paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and Wyndham allows the privileges and discounts its all good and is not a abuse or loophole but if you pay pennies on the dollar and create more value buying, using points and selling the ownership its not ok and some how it is a loophole or abuse? Remember cancel and rebook was also considered a VIP benefit at one time even if it was never listed in directory as one.



We can agree to disagree of course - but understand something Dominic -I don’t repeatedly parrot the very same lines about VIPs abusing the system on almost every thread that I post on - you do. And with no data to back it up. My question to you that remains unanswered is - why do you keep parroting the same things repeatedly on almost every thread? What is your goal? Where is your data that proves your assertions?

And yes - if a VIP spends serious money to obtain VIP benefits - then they are entitled to use those benefits whether you like it or not. No VIP today is currently employing any strategy to selectively obtain contracts on specific months in an effort to game the system and pay 25% of the MFs for two years worth of points the way you were.

Think of it this way - Wyndham shut down what you were doing and changed the transfer process to prevent stripping two years of points off of contracts while only holding them for a fraction of that time. This doesn’t create any value for anyone except YOU. In comparison, has Wyndham shut down VIP owners obtaining resale contracts and applying a subset of VIP benefits to the resale contracts? No - and it’s because the fact is that it’s a very small percentage of VIP owners since the totality of the CWP ownership that held resale contracts was 5% last year. And that small subset of VIP ownership are Wyndham’s most valuable and loyal customers. And those VIP owners are still paying full MFs on their resale contracts every month. We aren’t pumping and dumping contracts like you were. We went through the front door - we didn’t try to sneak in through the side door unnoticed.

Wyndham has put a program in place that, in return for spending tens of thousands of dollars or more, VIP owners enjoy perks - just like any other preferred customer program out there. The more you spend - the more perks you get. If someone such as yourself tries to essentially game the system and create that same discounted benefit/value without making the up front investment that other VIP owners have - you can and should expect to be shut down - and you were - and if you find another way - that too will be dealt with in the same manner by Wyndham. 

If you want significant discounts like VIP owners enjoy - including discounts for resale contracts - then put up the capital and become a VIP - and stop trying to figure out ways around the rules to attempt to do so. And please for the love of all that is right in this world, and I’m fairly certain I speak for the vast majority of TUG members, stop parroting the same tired statements with no basis in fact on almost every thread. It serves no useful purpose for anyone except to attempt to reinforce a false narrative that most of us know isn’t accurate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

meetseti said:


> So what can a potential resale buyer expect? Some resale listings say all of the current use year points are available; some say none; and others list a partial number.
> 
> Is the buyer likely to get what the listing describes, or is it a roll of the dice?



You should receive what the estoppel letter indicates. Always ask for the estoppel letter to validate the data on the listing - almost every listing contains standard verbiage that says that the seller is not held responsible for errors/omissions. I’ve found discrepancies several times between the listing and the actual estoppel letter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 18, 2021)

Eric B said:


> For your convenience, I’ve quoted the original post here. As has been pointed out, the issue was with previous year points, deposited as a result of the pandemic, not current use year points. The issue you are complaining about is unrelated to OP’s concerns and the remainder of this thread.



Great point. Would the estoppel letter clear up this discrepancy? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B (Apr 18, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Great point. Would the estoppel letter clear up this discrepancy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I kind of doubt it.  That’s a form letter and is contract specific; PFD is not contract specific, but instead an account level action IMHO.  If you think about it, transferring points from a prior year is akin to transferring the usage of the ownership of the contract prior to the date of the contract, or a pure points transfer, and Wyndham doesn’t allow that.  I understand that they may have in the past and there are some systems that will allow it (Marriott explicitly and HGVC without explicit rules or guidance), but they don’t now and I wouldn’t expect them to for a sale any differently than without one.

BTW, the other thing OP could do that’s actually permitted by the rules is have the seller deposit the points in RCI, then transfer those to his Wyndham RCI account, assuming that the intent of the transaction was to include those points.  That would avoid issues with transaction fees, guest certificates, housekeeping tokens, etc., though it would wind up being stuck with RCI exchange as the usage along with the associated fees.  If it were me, that’s what I’d do.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

Eric B said:


> I kind of doubt it.  That’s a form letter and is contract specific; PFD is not contract specific, but instead an account level action IMHO.  If you think about it, transferring points from a prior year is akin to transferring the usage of the ownership of the contract prior to the date of the contract, or a pure points transfer, and Wyndham doesn’t allow that.  I understand that they may have in the past and there are some systems that will allow it (Marriott explicitly and HGVC without explicit rules or guidance), but they don’t now and I wouldn’t expect them to for a sale any differently than without one.
> 
> BTW, the other thing OP could do that’s actually permitted by the rules is have the seller deposit the points in RCI, then transfer those to his Wyndham RCI account, assuming that the intent of the transaction was to include those points.  That would avoid issues with transaction fees, guest certificates, housekeeping tokens, etc., though it would wind up being stuck with RCI exchange as the usage along with the associated fees.  If it were me, that’s what I’d do.


RCI does have value but would be my last option. If seller agreed all points were for buyers use seller could easily book a vacation for the OP to make the situation right.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

CCdad said:


> Dominic - please stop spouting hypothetical nonsense that’s no longer true.
> 
> Wyndham may have done this just because they thought they could bully you. You held your ground, so they backed down. Bravo!
> 
> ...


You sure Wyndham will transfer a contract without seller having future use year points available? What if seller only has one contract will Wyndham transfer it if seller has used all available future use year points?


----------



## CCdad (Apr 19, 2021)

dgalati said:


> You sure Wyndham will transfer a contract without seller having future use year points available? What if seller only has one contract will Wyndham transfer it if seller has used all future use year points?



Yes, I have been there more than once and it’s been done with future years’ points having been used by the seller.

The estoppel language to both buyer and seller now indicates that WD will only hold up the transfer if EITHER of the respective owners’ MFs aren’t kept current.

WD has no interest in mediating points availability disputes between the buyer and seller (or who’s responsible for the MFs on future used or unused points). They simply want the money that’s due and that the parties follow the procedures in place to transfer the contract(s).


----------



## Fried_shrimp (Apr 19, 2021)

troy12n said:


> Not hard to figure out why they closed that loophole...
> 
> Normal owners subsidizing mega renters and deed flippers... sounds like normal working Americans subsidizing the mega rich who exploit tax loopholes, but I digress... If only our congress was so proactive to close these loopholes as Wyndham was. Again, I digress...


----------



## Braindead (Apr 19, 2021)

dgalati said:


> What if seller only has one contract will Wyndham transfer it if seller has used all future use year points?


How do you use ALL future use year points? 
If you have a January 1 start to your use year, how do you use 2023 points now?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

CCdad said:


> Yes, I have been there more than once and it’s been done with future years’ points having been used by the seller.
> 
> The estoppel language to both buyer and seller now indicates that WD will only hold up the transfer if EITHER of the respective owners’ MFs aren’t kept current.
> 
> WD has no interest in mediating points availability disputes between the buyer and seller (or who’s responsible for the MFs on future used or unused points). They simply want the money that’s due and that the parties follow the procedures in place to transfer the contract(s).


Was this on a recent transactions or a few years ago? Can you add a copy of the new estoppel stating what points will transfer?


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Name one loophole that has been abused by VIPs since 2016 that has been closed due to abuse. AFAIK it was the megarenters prior to 2016 that were the primary abusers of the system in the past - most of which were VIPs. Since that time, please name one loophole. And mind you as we have repeatedly discussed in the past - the use of resale points by VIP owners is NOT a loophole - as there is no strategy VIPs are using to game the system - the system is currently working as designed. The introduction of the Voyager website back in 2016 made major changes to eliminate cancel and rebook along with changes to eliminate the credit pooling system, coupled with forcibly removing the pool of megarenters that were in point of fact gaming the system.





HitchHiker71 said:


> Do you handle your own rentals, or do you outsource the rental function to a third party?  Or do you mostly rent to people you know?  Curious as I'm considering taking this approach as well to help offset MFs.


Rentals by VIP owners are abused at the expense of all owners looking to book for personal use.
Surprised to see your interest in rentals to cover maintenance fees.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 19, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Rentals by VIP owners are abused at the expense of all owners looking to book for personal use.
> Surprised to see your interest in rentals to cover maintenance fees.



I see - so you are actually in objection to your other endless posts telling everyone repeatedly to rent from a VIP then yes? Didn’t you rent from VIP owners yourself?  Because you just said you have a real problem with VIP owners using any of their points for anything other than personal use. So which is it? You cannot have it both ways Dominic.

I’ve never said I objected to VIP owners renting a portion of their points to help offset MFs - particularly to friends and family. I’ve never rented any points to anyone other than family until this year due to the pandemic and having such large point balances for 2021 - and heading into next use year I doubt we will rent much since we will return to using the majority of our points for personal use while renting occasionally to friends and family. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I see - so you are actually in objection to your other endless posts telling under the sun to rent from a VIP then yes? Because you just said you have a real problem with VIP owners using any of their points for anything other than personal use. So which is it? You cannot have it both ways Dominic.
> 
> I’ve never said I objected to VIP owners renting a portion of their points to help offset MFs - particularly to friends and family. I’ve never rented any points to anyone other than family until this year due to the pandemic and having such large point balances for 2021 - and heading into next use year I doubt we will rent much since we will return to using the majority of our points for personal use while renting occasionally to friends and family.
> 
> ...


I not against what ever works for a owner but I might buy up to VIP if rentals weren't cheaper then owning for my travel needs.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 19, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I see - so you are actually in objection to your other endless posts telling under the sun to rent from a VIP then yes? Because you just said you have a real problem with VIP owners using any of their points for anything other than personal use. So which is it? You cannot have it both ways Dominic.
> 
> I’ve never said I objected to VIP owners renting a portion of their points to help offset MFs - particularly to friends and family. I’ve never rented any points to anyone other than family until this year due to the pandemic and having such large point balances for 2021 - and heading into next use year I doubt we will rent much since we will return to using the majority of our points for personal use while renting occasionally to friends and family.
> 
> ...


I just find it hypocritical that you can rent for personal gain but call me out for using my ownership for personal gain.
Q


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Apr 19, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I just find it hypocritical that you can rent for personal gain but call me out for using my ownership for personal gain.
> Q



I don’t have any problem with you attempting to beat the system via your strategy of acquiring contracts in such a way that you could obtain two years of points for 25% of the cost. Personally, I can admire your chutzpah and the ingenuity you have employed to accomplish what you have done. Kudos to you for attempting to find value by manipulating the system to your own advantage. 

But you didn’t stop there - you keep attacking VIP owners and spreading falsehoods about VIP benefits and the program perks all the while, ironically, trying to effectively do the exact same thing yourself by beating the system. This is the part that I find disingenuous and hypocritical on your part. For months you have been harping on legitimate VIP benefits and current perks all the while conveniently staying silent about your own efforts to get the very same valuable benefits from Wyndham for as little as possible. It would be one thing if every time you parroted the same tired lines about VIP benefits that you also openly admitted you’re trying to essentially obtain the same benefits as VIP owners without making any up front investment - but I never saw you do that. That to me is the very definition of hypocrisy Dominic. 

Here’s the rub I have - the VIP owners didn’t attempt to get something for nothing - we came in the front door and negotiated in good faith for the benefits we now enjoy. You can attempt to label myself and other VIP owners as hypocrites all you want - but as a VIP owner I, along with all other VIP owners, have paid for the privilege to do what we are doing. The VIP program was built to allow for renting to friends and family. That’s why it’s been allowed for as long as it has been, and will likely continue for many years to come. You seem to think that you should somehow be entitled to the same benefits as a VIP owner without having to actually pay anything for that privilege. How does that make any sense? 

The basis of your approach is to attempt to beat the system by “sneaking in the side door” and paying little to nothing in the process. Again I admire the ingenuity - but none of us are going to be surprised when those loopholes get closed while the “front door” VIP program perks stay intact.

Specific to your rental inquiry, I’m not renting for personal gain - I’m simply renting to cover MFs for points not used during a pandemic - likely a once in a lifetime scenario. We don’t own enough points to rent out and also meet our vacation desires during normal times. We are also only VIPG so competing against VIPP or VIPF owners for rental prices, at least for rentals within the discount window - doesn’t make much sense either.  

We occasionally will reserve for friends or family members - maybe 1-3 times per year - mostly for our adult children - which we usually do for free. Fortunately the VIP program was built for this purpose - that’s why VIP owners are granted additional GCs at no additional cost. Wyndham has given VIPG owners like myself 10 GCs per annum - meaning I can rent/reserve for friends and family up to ten times per year as a benefit of my VIP purchase. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Apr 20, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I see - so you are actually in objection to your other endless posts telling everyone repeatedly to rent from a VIP then yes? Didn’t you rent from VIP owners yourself?  Because you just said you have a real problem with VIP owners using any of their points for anything other than personal use. So which is it? You cannot have it both ways Dominic.
> 
> I’ve never said I objected to VIP owners renting a portion of their points to help offset MFs - particularly to friends and family. I’ve never rented any points to anyone other than family until this year due to the pandemic and having such large point balances for 2021 - and heading into next use year I doubt we will rent much since we will return to using the majority of our points for personal use while renting occasionally to friends and family.
> 
> ...


 I am not objecting to rentals as you know I have benefited from them and it works for my travel needs. But I try to be fair and call out how rentals affect owners that want to book for personal use. I also know limiting the cheap rentals would end my ability to enjoy the resorts and VIP discounts without buying into the VIP program. Wyndham is limiting GC's now at certain resorts during the busy holiday travel seasons to prevent the abuse of rentals and to create availability for owners booking for personal use. I am all for this even if it ends my ability to travel for 1/2 the cost of owning and paying maintenance fees.


----------



## CCdad (Apr 20, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Was this on a recent transactions or a few years ago? Can you add a copy of the new estoppel stating what points will transfer?



It was a recent transaction.

The estoppel I listed above hasn’t changed in quite some time. Wyndham only provides it upon request by an owner. It’s date specific and gives WD cover in the event that the seller tries to fleece the buyer by either booking reservations, using the PDF or otherwise moving ANY current year or future years‘ points prior to the contract being transferred to the buyer.

I think it’s very prudent advice to require the Buyer’s estoppel before signing any Purchase Agreement documents and also to follow up to make sure that any Ebay auction terms or a private sale are appropriately documented in writing.  If you pay for the purchase using anything other than a credit card, you’ll have *Very Little Leverage* if the transaction doesn’t follow the written agreement.

It’s most certainly buyer beware.


----------



## dgalati (Apr 20, 2021)

CCdad said:


> It was a recent transaction.
> 
> The estoppel I listed above hasn’t changed in quite some time. Wyndham only provides it upon request by an owner. It’s date specific and gives WD cover in the event that the seller tries to fleece the buyer by either booking reservations, using the PDF or otherwise moving ANY current year or future years‘ points prior to the contract being transferred to the buyer.
> 
> ...


I always request A estoppel and LT Transfers will not start a transfer without one in hand. I was able to recoup delinquent maintenance fees from a seller by filing a claim with PayPal. I used Paypal to pay with credit card.


----------



## Richelle (Apr 22, 2021)

@HitchHiker71 to add to your point, VIP owners who own both resale and retail, don't always get the benefits on their resale points.  What I mean is, I book big family trips every year.  I mean ones that run close to a million points for just one trip because I'm getting bigger rooms during prime season.  There is no discounts on those because they are booked up long before that discount window comes around.  There are also no upgrades because again, the big rooms are already booked.  It would take a small miracle for my 3 bedrooms at the smokies to get upgraded to a four-bedroom presidential.  That trip cost me over 800,000 points.  That eats up all my resale points and some of my retail.  That happens pretty much every year. So if only my 700k got discounts, i wouldn't see a difference, because my resale points were used up with the big family vacation.  The ones that are left, are my retail points.  Those are eligible for VIP benefits.  I know I am not the only one that does that.  So it's an even smaller subset of users who actually get discounts on reservations that total more than their VIP eligible points.  I would imagine the ones that do are retirees who don't need to travel during prime season and can travel often.  

@dgalati, we've had this conversation before.  If you don't have proof to back your statements, don't spout it as fact.  It's just not right.  The only people that get hurt are the newbies that don't know any better.  Your constant parroting of the same lines is not helpful either.  Hitchhiker71 has already explained why it's not a loophole.   The system does not separate resale contract points from resale ones except when it comes to VIP status.  That is not something we made happen.  Yes, we buy resale contracts.  Do we know we know they will get the same VIP benefits our other points do?  Sure.  But how is that any different than someone buying a resale contract, knowing they can get the same benefits as someone who spent 10's of thousands of dollars on their contract?  By your logic, that is a giant loophole.

You cannot knock on VIPs ability to use their VIP benefits on their resale points, without knocking on people who buy resale points to get the same privileges as someone who spent 10's of thousands.


----------

