# Royal Mayan: Timeshare Owner Action Plan



## Ellis2ca (Mar 30, 2013)

A short Plan of Action for Royal Mayan timeshare owners:

WE, the TIMESHARE OWNERS, must ALSO BID to BUY THE ROYAL MAYAN ! 

We can do this.   We are many more than they, and I suppose that our combined bid can be greater than $44,000,000.  

In fact, not only we, the timeshare owners can bid, we can receive support from anybody else who wants to join us... other owners at the other Royal Resorts....  In fact, anybody who wants to join us to buy the Royal Mayan.   

We have to invite Bill Gates, and Donald Trump, and Carlos Slim, and whoever else wants to join in the bidding, with us, or against us.   That is fine.  We want there to be a bidding war...

And WE must ALSO make CERTAIN that Hilton, and Marriott, and Nikko and Fiesta Americana and Hyatt and Ritz Carlton and all the large and small hotels and resorts in CanCun and the Riviera Maya ALSO know that they can bid.

If the Royal Mayan is to be sold, at the very least, we must unite to force the bidding UP.  

BUT WE MUST ACT FAST.   There is not much time left.   TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE.

Number One: we need a DATABASE of Royal Resort owners interested in pulling this off, and we need a newsletter.

We must immediately PUT UP A SALES PAGE advertising the sale of the Royal Mayan, with a Blog, and a landing page to store e-mails so we can stay in communication.

We must put up many short videos on You Tube.

We must PUBLISH A KINDLE BOOK advertising the sale of the Royal Mayan.  

We must offer the sale on E-Bay, perhaps on Amazon.com and Apple iTunes, Google Plus, Twitter, Facebook, Pinterest, Linked In, etc.   

(It is exactly what e-Bay does: an auction.)

We must make our project KNOWN to Owner's Manual, Redweek, Interval International, R.C.I., etc.   (We never know who will want to support us... let them KNOW that we are united and trying to do this.)

We might put up an offer on Kickstarter (Kickstarter dot com is a website where we have a limited amount of time to raise money for a project.   This requires a video explaining the project.   I am not sure that this project would be accepted by Kickstarter, since we might not win the bidding.)

And if we win the bidding:  we buy it!  We'll be shareholders of a Royal Mayan Hotel.   We can then negotiate with the Royal Resort developers to run it for us, together with the rest of the Royal Resorts.  

And if they refuse, we can get administration from experts and probably run it as a successful money-making hotel.  

Hey!  It is beautiful, it is on the best beach, it is centrally located... it is ALREADY WELL KNOWN to travellers and travel agencies.   It has what is known in accounting as "GOODWILL"    Goodwill of the Royal Mayan ALONE is surely worth $50,000,000 dollars.

But this requires A LOT OF THINKING.  And TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE.  We probably need a corporation to be able to buy the property, collectively.   One million shares, at $1,000 per share is one billion dollars.   

Can we sell one million shares for $1,000 on a long shot?   Maybe not.  But look at it this way: we might lose $1,000 but we would also get a lot of it returned to us, in residual value, plus the 50% after the developers get their share of residual value.  We each stand to LOSE much more than $1,000 if we DON'T do this.

Our aim should be to get the Timeshare owners 100% of our residual values returned to us.   The developers are signalling that they will be left out if the sale is made for $44,000,000 so let's not worry about them.   HOW MUCH do we need to bid so that all the timehare owners receive 100% residuals?   What are the residuals on the lowest weeks and the residuals on week 52?   Please post.  I have a week 52 with $12,000 residual.   Maybe there are others with more.

And if we aim for $1,000,000,000 (one billion dollars) we can perhaps reach more than $100,000,000.   If there are 10,000 members with residual values of $10,000, we need 100,000,000 after expenses.   Let's shoot for a bid of at least $200,000,000.

If Facebook could do it, we can do it !

I know what I think we need to do... but I can't do it alone... and I don't know how to do most of what I think has to be done.

If you have expertise in setting up websites or law or accounting, we surely need YOU.  Please volunteer your services.

We will surely also need MONEY for a domain name, to set up web pages, to get auto-responders, etc.   I volunteer $100 to the cause, to get it started...  and I might volunteer more if others also volunteer money to the cause.  

(note: I think we need less than $1,000 to set up a website, get a domain name, set up a blog, get an auto-responder service, etc.)  (We could perhaps make it self-sustaining if we SELL something, like a book for $3.00 with good advice... etc.)

Which would be a good domain name for our website?   (Don't write it here, or the Bad Guys will take it away.)

And we surely need to THINK TOGETHER and STICK TOGETHER.

now.. HOW DO WE GET THE RULES TO MAKE A BID?   Richard Sutton: WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO BID.

- Ellis


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## sdbrier (Mar 30, 2013)

Not much time indeed.  
Below is the date given by the Royals for bid submission.




 "Tentative plans are to look for qualified bidders through April 1, 2013."


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## Phydeaux (Mar 30, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> A short Plan of Action for Royal Mayan timeshare owners:
> 
> WE, the TIMESHARE OWNERS, must ALSO BID to BUY THE ROYAL MAYAN !
> 
> ...



Good luck with that. Let us know how it turns out.


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## Ellis2ca (Mar 30, 2013)

sdbrier said:


> Not much time indeed.
> Below is the date given by the Royals for bid submission.
> 
> "Tentative plans are to look for qualified bidders through April 1, 2013."



That would be tomorrow... and it would be illegal not to give us a chance to bid.   

We can get a Judge to order it... 

But... we need a Mexican lawyer, immediately.


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## ilene13 (Mar 30, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> That would be tomorrow... and it would be illegal not to give us a chance to bid.
> 
> We can get a Judge to order it...
> 
> But... we need a Mexican lawyer, immediately.



Actually it is Monday not tomorrow!


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## timeos2 (Mar 30, 2013)

ilene13 said:


> Actually it is Monday not tomorrow!



You're right - then there is plenty of time after all! Get that web page up...


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## pjrose (Mar 30, 2013)

Ellis, the first step is for you to call Richard Sutton and find out the actual deadline for bids.


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## Ellis2ca (Mar 31, 2013)

*We have until June 19 to bid...*

I copy and paste this from the "News About the Royal Mayan" which is inside the members area of royalresorts.com   

According to this, bids will be opened on June 19... We have about 75 days, two and a half months to do this.  

I THINK WE CAN DO THIS, if we can get organized.   

I CAN'T DO IT ALONE.  I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO (set up a website, etc.)   

We need an expert on setting up websites, blogs, etc. and WE NEED A DATABASE to try to get in touch with Royal Resort timeshare owners who might be interested.   

If we are working against the Royal Resort developers who want to scam us, they have the cards in their hands.   

If they are not really working against us, they would be happy to help to publicize this.   We just need to ask them to inform all the members that we are attempting to buy them out.

It is literally IMPOSSIBLE that the developers are voluntarily giving up their possible gain by continuing the Royal Mayan.   Their is something hidden going on.

I copy and paste this:
====== from "News About the Royal Mayan"

Bids for The Royal Mayan will be sent in a sealed envelope and opened on June 19 in the presence of Ernst & Young and a notary public. After an analysis of the bids, the recommended buyer and conditions of the sale will be presented and discussed during a conference call with the Advisory Council members.  The winner of the bidding process will be selected on June 28, 2013.

In the event that an offer is accepted, the timeline stipulates that the sale must be closed by September 30, 2013. Once the resort is sold, the Company will prepare to deliver the resort and assets to the purchaser; this will take place from October 1, 2013 to January 31, 2014 and the property will be delivered on February 28, 2014. In this case the distribution of net proceeds to members of the Resort in good standing is expected to take place no later than the end of March, 2014.

======

So NOW WHAT?   Who can set up a corporation for the Royal Resort Timeshare Owners to try to buy the Royal Mayan?


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## X-ring (Mar 31, 2013)

>> It is literally IMPOSSIBLE that the developers are voluntarily giving up their possible gain by continuing the Royal Mayan. Their is something hidden going on.

As we know, their attempt to keep everyone happy by extending VCI by another 30 didn't work out too well for them - many members who said they'd renew simply didn't come through. And now some who did renew want to sell thereby competing against the Royals' own unsold inventory.

Having been burned once, why is it so hard to believe that there is no way that they are going to get stung again?


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## rwpeterson (Mar 31, 2013)

This was posted in the Member Forum section of the Royal Resorts website on 11/2/2012 - it appears someone else is trying to find investors to buy the resort:


The Royal Resorts will be looking for qualified buyers through March 31, 2013 who will then send a sealed bid in by June 2013. We at The Owner's Manual, a magazine for Royal Resort members (www.omcancun.com) by members, for members where you can rent and sell your villa are trying to find investors to purchase The Royal Mayan. The magazine is not affiliated with The Royal Resorts. We plan to send out a survey to The Royal Mayan owners that would like to repatriate their residual value that they will receive from the sale of The R.M. for an additional four and a half years and retain their original residual value.


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## pjrose (Mar 31, 2013)

rwpeterson said:


> This was posted in the Member Forum section of the Royal Resorts website on 11/2/2012 - it appears someone else is trying to find investors to buy the resort:
> 
> 
> The Royal Resorts will be looking for qualified buyers through March 31, 2013 who will then send a sealed bid in by June 2013. We at The Owner's Manual, a magazine for Royal Resort members (www.omcancun.com) by members, for members where you can rent and sell your villa are trying to find investors to purchase The Royal Mayan. The magazine is not affiliated with The Royal Resorts. We plan to send out a survey to The Royal Mayan owners that would like to repatriate their residual value that they will receive from the sale of The R.M. for an additional four and a half years and retain their original residual value.



I saw that and I think I mentioned it in an earlier post.....Ellis, how about contacting the Owner's Manual to see where their efforts are going?


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## geoffb (Mar 31, 2013)

They also posted that appeal on their blog in 2011 after a long discussion about the sale of the Mayan trust ending...

http://omcancun.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/royal-mayan-probably-to-be-sold/

http://omcancun.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/royal-mayan/

But that blog has been inactive since November 2011 so I had sort of assumed the effort went nowhere since there wasn't any additional follow up online (maybe there was in the newsletter, I am not a subscriber).


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 2, 2013)

P.J. Rose... I'm not your secretary... If you want to contact the Owner's Manual, don't tell me to do it... don't ask me to do it... just DO IT.  

Why are you suggesting to me to contact the Owner's Manual?   We are all capable of contacting the Owner's Manual, or Hilton, or Sheraton, or Donald Trump if you know him.. 

Don't ASK ME FOR PERMISSION to act.. just DO IT !!!   I'm not the boss, or the President of this, I am just another timeshare owner.

I am just one person.   If you have an idea, don't consult with me, just do it and then tell us that you did it.

Hey Guys... we're not getting anywhere... The Bad Guys are pretending that there was a vote, and that the majority of us voted that the Royal Mayan should be sold... That vote was not worth the toilet paper it was written on, but they are using that as if it was valid.  

We are being railroaded, and the only way to beat them is for there to be a real auction, which is not happening since it is all a "big secret."  "confidentiality agreement" with real estate agents?   Why?   Since when do real estate agents need a confidentiality agreement?   Nothing is transparent here.

They are pretending that there will be an auction, when in fact it is a big secret... There are no instructions anywhere on how to enter a bid... 

They are going to steal the Royal Mayan for $30,000,000 minus deductions for this and that, and they are going to turn it into a hotel and they will be the owners... 

They will leave us with zero.  They are stealing our Royal Mayan residual values in broad daylight, and we are doing absolutely nothing about it.   

This board is full of posts by Bad Guys who have written and are writing bad information to throw us off, and in support of the Bad Guys.

They are not making any effort to have any bids or auction.  This is a multimillion dollar scam, happening in open daylight.

Now... WHO IS WITH ME that we need a lawyer?    We need an independent appraisal.  The land is worth more than $40,000,000 and the buildings and contents  and Goodwill are worth I don't know how much...  Surely you can't build something like this today, for $30,000,000.   

Somebody say "I am with you"   

Don't fold your hands and read this, and then yawn and say you are willing to be gypped, because we are all going to be gypped.

We each stand to lose the entire residual value that we paid for when we bought our timeshare.  It was included in the price.   It was a mathematical calculation of FV Future Value, n number of years, at i interest rate.   30 years ago, $2,500 doubles and doubles to $10,000 at about 5% interest rate... or it doubles and doubles and doubles to $20,000 at about 7% interest rate.   All that is going to be stolen from us.  

Are we going to Bid, or not?   

If we aren't going to bid, the least we have to do is to try to make an honest auction.   

I would be happy if there was an honest auction... But there isn't going to be one... The only ones who are going to bid are them, and they are trying to convince us that the economy is bad, when Can Cun is in fact booming with construction and economic activity.

I am unhappy that this post has gotten less than 500 views, and only 12 posts, including 3 or 4 by me.  That means there is no "buzz"... we don't have any strength.   We are going to be buried alive, and we're going to accept it with hands folded.

Ellis


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## pjrose (Apr 2, 2013)

Ellis,
It was a suggestion, that's all.  I wasn't telling you to do anything. I suggested it because they are trying to put together a group of investors. Maybe they've already got some.  I'm not likely to be one of them, but you seem interested.   
PJ


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## MuranoJo (Apr 2, 2013)

PJ, you are a classy gal.


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## JudyS (Apr 3, 2013)

How many units are there at the Royal Mayan? I don't know much about the resort (not an owner there), so I'm not sure what $44 million works out to, on a per-interval basis. 

I do think there are *tons* of opportunities right now for buying blocks of weeks, and entire resorts, for cheap. As the economy improves, these opportunities may go away. Before that happens, I would love it if TUG members banded together to own their own resort or points-based club!



X-ring said:


> As we know, their attempt to keep everyone happy by extending VCI by another 30 didn't work out too well for them - many members who said they'd renew simply didn't come through. ....


This could be a problem for an owner-buyout, too -- current owners might pledge money, then not pay. Possibly there is some way to prevent this, since things such as employee buyouts happen fairly frequently, but I don't know what mechanisms can be used to prevent backing-out.


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## DosMasCervesos (Apr 3, 2013)

muranojo said:


> PJ, you are a classy gal.


<+1> Amazing restraint.


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## BoaterMike (Apr 3, 2013)

DosMasCervesos said:


> <+1> Amazing restraint.



Absolutely!


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## tonyg (Apr 3, 2013)

Looks like around $ 4,200 and change per interval, roughly.


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## pjrose (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks.  Diplomacy has its merits.


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## JudyS (Apr 4, 2013)

tonyg said:


> Looks like around $ 4,200 and change per interval, roughly.



Thanks! So, there are about 10,500 intervals = 210 condos?

Although the Rayal Mayan has a great reputation, I think it would be very hard to find 10,500 people to pay $4,200 for a week there, given the current availability of cheap timeshares.


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## pjrose (Apr 4, 2013)

JudyS said:


> Thanks! So, there are about 10,500 intervals = 210 condos?
> 
> Although the Rayal Mayan has a great reputation, I think it would be very hard to find 10,500 people to pay $4,200 for a week there, given the current availability of cheap timeshares.



$42 or so million would be pocket change to the biggest corporations in the hotel/resort industry. I believe the Owner's Manual wants to find investors to buy into owning the whole resort....e.g. 100 people with $400K each.  

If re-sold as a timeshare, it'd likely sell for a lot more than $4,200 a week with a 50 year RTU.


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## BoaterMike (Apr 4, 2013)

I would recommend getting Jimmy Buffett involved now that he's in the TS business in St. Thomas.


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## geoffb (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't recall the exact number of units, I think it is 200 or just slightly higher. But in any case 200 x 51 weeks (52 minus the maintenance week) is 10,200 intervals.

People buy timeshares in Cancun for more than $4,200 per interval every day but that's not what will drive the purchase price. Anyone buying the property will likely need to be qualified by showing a letter of credit for a large sum of money. Then they will bid with the value of the property, the likely cost of any improvements or renovations they would need/want to do, and the cost of marketing the property as a hotel or timeshare in mind.

Keep in mind that Royal Resorts spent $8 million doing basic infrastructure upgrades at VCI and it is likely that a new owner of the Royal Mayan would need to consider similar amounts of work at a minimum after 30 years of use.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 4, 2013)

pjrose said:


> $42 or so million would be pocket change to the biggest corporations in the hotel/resort industry. I believe the Owner's Manual wants to find investors to buy into owning the whole resort....e.g. 100 people with $400K each.
> 
> If re-sold as a timeshare, it'd likely sell for a lot more than $4,200 a week with a 50 year RTU.


I don't think any of the large hotel/resort businesses would have any interest in bidding on the property.  

The business model for most, if not all, of those organizations explicitly avoids owning real estate or buildings.  The actual owners of the property operate under license from the hotel/resort company that has the brand.


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## pjrose (Apr 4, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I don't think any of the large hotel/resort businesses would have any interest in bidding on the property.
> 
> The business model for most, if not all, of those organizations explicitly avoids owning real estate or buildings.  The actual owners of the property operate under license from the hotel/resort company that has the brand.



Rumors were flying about Disney, Iberostar, etc....but we all know rumors are just that


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## Barbeque (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds like another opportunity for Mr. Yes   Steve Colbeck  (Diamond)


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## JudyS (Apr 5, 2013)

pjrose said:


> ...
> If re-sold as a timeshare, it'd likely sell for a lot more than $4,200 a week with a 50 year RTU.


Sold by a developer, it could go for way more than $4,200 a week, yes. I should have clarified that I was not talking about developer prices. Rather, I was commenting on the Original Poster's plan to find current owners or resale owners to buy out the resort. I don't think the Original Poster's plan will work because she's not going to find 10,000 people on the resale market who will spend $4200 each for this.


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## JudyS (Apr 5, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I don't think any of the large hotel/resort businesses would have any interest in bidding on the property.
> 
> The business model for most, if not all, of those organizations explicitly avoids owning real estate or buildings.  The actual owners of the property operate under license from the hotel/resort company that has the brand.


Really? Wow, the new things you learn on TUG! So, Marriott and Starwood don't actually own the real estate on their hotels? Why is that? Is there anyplace I can learn more about this?


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 5, 2013)

Step 1, we need an independent appraisal, at a minimum so that after we get gypped we can all KNOW that we were gypped.   

I am sure that 10,000 sq. meters of beachfront property on the best beach of Can Cun is worth more than $5,000 per square meter... 
that is $50,000,000.   

Plus all the buildings and improvements are worth at least $1000 per square meter of building.  At a minimum.  400 villas at 120 sq. meters is 48,000 sq meters... that is $48,000,000 right there.   Plus all the rest of the buildings common areas that are not Villas, like the stairs and the lobby and the supermarkets, etc.

so... are we going to join together to do an independent appraisal?   An appraisal costs money.   A quick appraisal is cheap, but I don't think we can expect to get any cooperation at all from Royal Resort Developers, or from the sales staff.   The salesmen are pawns, they pretend they know nothing.

But what do we do if the appraisal says it is worth $100,000,000 and they sell it from one hand to the other hand, for $30,000,000 then they deduct 5% real estate commission to themselves, and they liquidate themselves and their employees, and they give us each $1.00 one dollar?   What do we do then?   If we are not going to bid, we have nothing.

I can't believe that Richard Sutton is allowing this to happen.   I trusted Richard Sutton.  He is why I bought and I bought.   

Richard Sutton, when you read this, know that I am counting on YOU to not let the others gyp us.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 5, 2013)

JudyS said:


> Sold by a developer, it could go for way more than $4,200 a week, yes. I should have clarified that I was not talking about developer prices. Rather, I was commenting on the Original Poster's plan to find current owners or resale owners to buy out the resort. I don't think the Original Poster's plan will work because she's not going to find 10,000 people on the resale market who will spend $4200 each for this.



The developers are not going to give up their multi-million dollar opportunity to earn an amount equal to the residual value of members, after the members get their residual value, for nothing.   They did it at V.C.I. (now "Royal CanCun") and we were all very happy with how they did it.   There are terrorists on this board telling us how they lost, but they didn't lose on V.C.I., and it will sell out slowly but surely.

But now they have another plan.

They could have told us, we will resell the Villas, you will get your residual value AFTER we have sold your villa.   Yes or No ?  

We all would have voted a big YES, and many of us would have re-bought our Villas.

Instead, their new plan is to sell from one hand to the other hand, in a secret auction that nobody but them participates in, and they will liquidate our residual values with nothing flat.   

And the Royal Resorts Advisory Board... they are supposed to be members and should know, but they are keeping quiet, too.   It is all very depressing.   It makes me very sad.   

And, what happens to the Royal Mayan, you can expect will also happen to the Royal Caribbean.  

I am not so sure it will happen to Royal Islander and Royal Sands and Royal Haciendas and now, "Royal Cancun" because supposedly we have 100% residuals... but they are in command.  They steer the boat to where they want it to go.  We are all just helpless passengers on their ship, we don't even have life vests.

Of course, I could be wrong... but I am never wrong... (except I was wrong to think that this would never happen.)  

I know we are not going to be happy with the peanuts they will pay for our residual values.   

They are already preparing us for the bad news, in all of their communications.   It is a scam and we're going to be the victims.

This instantly makes resale values of Royal Resort timeshares go DOWN in value.   Before, we had residual values to hold them up.  

Now, that is laughable.

It will also make it more difficult for THEM to convince prospective buyers that the residual value means anything.  If they make us unhappy, they are going to ruin their great reputation, and their biggest source of clients, which was us happy members... 

We are happy no more.

It will come back and haunt them when they try to sell new properties.  Mark my words, if they pull this scam as I think they are going to do, it is going to become very difficult for them to sell new properties.   I will suppose it ALREADY HAS affected their sales to us.  

Who would like to buy another week at Royal CanCun... or at Royal Haciendas?


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## Phydeaux (Apr 5, 2013)

Ellis, you'd be hard pressed to get 20 Royals members to sign a petition to enforce the chair reserving policy. Sorry, but it's true. 


Your enthusiasm is noteworthy, but your timing and message delivery are unusual. No offense intended, but I tend to call it as I see it. Not always proper in our PC world, I know. I must admit, it's an entertaining thread though.


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## geoffb (Apr 6, 2013)

Yes it has been entertaining but to be serious for a moment...

Ellis, about the only thing you have said that I can agree with is that if the Royal Mayan auction goes badly and members don't get a reasonable share of their residuals it will damage the company's reputation. I expect the company knows this and will try to avoid that if they can. We all knew a shortfall was probably coming when the company switched from residuals with a specific dollar value to unvalued shares in the trust property.

Your accusations the the whole auction is a calculated fraud make your plan sound more like a call to arms for a class action lawsuit, not a real estate investment. You can't cry "scam" and expect to do business with the company or attract investors.

It might have been possible to rally a group of owners together to offer a bid for the property in the past when there was time to get organized but it is too late for that. At this point someone needs to be at the table as a qualified bidder with the means to complete a legal purchase and an eight figure line of credit. I doubt you could even get permission to access the property to assess the value at this point in the process.

Hiring a lawyer, trying to incorporate, seeking a court intervention, paying for a commercial property assessment, and all that would just be a waste of money in my opinion.

Sorry, that's how I see it. The writing was on the wall when so many members at VCI cashed out.

-Geoff


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## tonyg (Apr 6, 2013)

Since I first owned at the Royals, I always questioned whether the residual would be paid in full (OR EVEN MORE). The Royals came up with a plan to do so for Club International (which had a small number of units with no residual value), but found it was a financial disaster. It will not happen again at the Royal Mayan. I believe the owners in the end will get something around 40% of their residual value. The old Royal crew that posted here were convinced that they would get at least the residual value back, but I never believed it. It was a nice perk to mention it when reselling tho. I'm happy that at least the 3 weeks I sold at VCI to other TUG members got the residual back in time.


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## JudyS (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm really not up on the situation with the Royals. One things I suspect has happened, though, is the resort simply has less value now than the developer expected it would have at the end of the RTU period. Timeshare values have taken a huge hit because of the world economic situation, and concerns about crime have hurt Mexican tourism. So, the real estate value the developers expected the resort to have upon resale is probably not there, regardless if the resort is re-sold as a timeshare or as some other hospitality project, and that resale value was how the developers planned to pay the residuals.

I am interested in what people here think of this analysis.


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## pjrose (Apr 7, 2013)

JudyS said:


> I'm really not up on the situation with the Royals. One things I suspect has happened, though, is the resort simply has less value now than the developer expected it would have at the end of the RTU period. Timeshare values have taken a huge hit because of the world economic situation, and concerns about crime have hurt Mexican tourism. So, the real estate value the developers expected the resort to have upon resale is probably not there, regardless if the resort is re-sold as a timeshare or as some other hospitality project, and that resale value was how the developers planned to pay the residuals.
> 
> I am interested in what people here think of this analysis.



Exactly.


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## tonyg (Apr 7, 2013)

I think that would have been more the case a few years ago than now, but it is true that there are more negatives now than there were in the last century. 10 years or so ago, it would have been hard to find someone here that wasn't somewhat convinced that the Royals would never split the tri-Royals. Royal resale values are certainly depressed now, after a bit of a comeback near the end of last year, but that might be different than actual real estate values.


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## LisaH (Apr 7, 2013)

tonyg said:


> Since I first owned at the Royals, I always questioned whether the residual would be paid in full (OR EVEN MORE). *The Royals came up with a plan to do so for Club International (which had a small number of units with no residual value), but found it was a financial disaster.* It will not happen again at the Royal Mayan. I believe the owners in the end will get something around 40% of their residual value. The old Royal crew that posted here were convinced that they would get at least the residual value back, but I never believed it. It was a nice perk to mention it when reselling tho. I'm happy that at least the 3 weeks I sold at VCI to other TUG members got the residual back in time.



Can someone remind me what happened to Royals paying VCI owners when residual payments came due?


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## Phydeaux (Apr 7, 2013)

My concern is that a buyer may not be found in this economy and region, leading to an abandoned Royal Mayan. Hopefully that won't happen, as that would be truly sad, and would certainly impact the Royal Caribbean and Royal Islander in a bad way.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 7, 2013)

LisaH said:


> Can someone remind me what happened to Royals paying VCI owners when residual payments came due?



We were offered to choose: 

1. a 50% discount on the list price of Villa-weeks.  We had first crack at renewing our own week, or we could choose any other week, any Villa, if it was not renewed by the present owner.    We could pay with our residuals, at full value of the residual... 

If the value of what we wanted to buy was greater than our residuals, we could pay the difference in.. I think... 12 months... or perhaps it was 24 months... without interest.

2. If we wanted our residuals, we were offered to receive 100% of our residuals in monthly payments over a period of three years.

=== 
I wrote this from memory and I think it is correct.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 7, 2013)

tonyg said:


> Since I first owned at the Royals, I always questioned whether the residual would be paid in full (OR EVEN MORE). The Royals came up with a plan to do so for Club International (which had a small number of units with no residual value), but found it was a financial disaster. It will not happen again at the Royal Mayan. I believe the owners in the end will get something around 40% of their residual value. The old Royal crew that posted here were convinced that they would get at least the residual value back, but I never believed it. It was a nice perk to mention it when reselling tho. I'm happy that at least the 3 weeks I sold at VCI to other TUG members got the residual back in time.



Tony... it was not a financial disaster!  Where do you get that it was a financial disaster?   

When they built V.C.I. they had to pay full price to build it.  They sold it people they didn't know, and they sold it fully in about 6 or 7 years...   

They had no reputation in 1977 (good or bad) and it was not as easy to sell the concept of timeshare in 1977 as it is today when there are millions of persons who own timeshares... 

Here, they sold part of it to those members who renewed and partly to new members who are buying at V.C.I.   They are much better known now, after 30 years and with members in 4 other clubs in CanCun who bought at V.C.I. because they had a great reputation.

Are you going to tell me that that is a financial disaster?   In what way is it a financial disaster?   I see V.C.I. is beautiful, and the restaurant is full, the sales office is busy, and people buy timeshares there every week.  

So I don't agree that it has been a financial disaster.   

You got your money back, and I renewed my three weeks for another 30 years, and we were both  happy.   Supposedly, we get 100% residuals at the end of 30 years, the resort will be "sold" and the money will be divided equally per week.

I don't see the financial disaster anywhere.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 7, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> My concern is that a buyer may not be found in this economy and region, leading to an abandoned Royal Mayan. Hopefully that won't happen, as that would be truly sad, and would certainly impact the Royal Caribbean and Royal Islander in a bad way.



A buyer may not be found?   Are you kidding?   What about all the building that is going on in CanCun and the Mayan Riviera?   Do you pretend to think that CanCun is dead and nobody is interested in investing in CanCun, when there are all those high-rise hotels going up?


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 7, 2013)

geoffb said:


> Yes it has been entertaining but to be serious for a moment...
> 
> Ellis, about the only thing you have said that I can agree with is that if the Royal Mayan auction goes badly and members don't get a reasonable share of their residuals it will damage the company's reputation. I expect the company knows this and will try to avoid that if they can. (snip...)
> 
> -Geoff



Geoff... The company is not doing what it should do to make this a real auction.  They are not seeking bidders.  They are not trying to sell to Fiesta Americana or to Sheraton or Hilton or Marriott, etc... 

They are hiding who are the real estate agents (and they are expert real estate agents) and they are hiding how to make a bid on the property, and the whole thing is hiding and not clear.   

They don't care if later we cry that it was a scam... They won't care if we complain on Facebook or Twitter or put up websites, because anyways whoever is going to buy the Royal Mayan at a bargain will then run it as a luxury hotel.   

There is no place for Honor, anymore.  There is only a place for Money.

They have plenty of experience working through travel agencies, and the Royal Mayan does have a lot of Good will already, so it will work great as a private hotel.   

Nothing will convince me that we are not being scammed unless they try to have a real bidding auction, like would occur at Southeby's  if a Van Gogh was for sale.  

They are not doing that.  It seems that they are going to have a private auction to sell our property, with only themselves bidding, to buy at the price they set themselves.  There will be no bidding war.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 7, 2013)

geoffb said:


> (snip...)
> 
> The writing was on the wall when so many members at VCI cashed out.
> 
> -Geoff



Even if 100% of us had cashed out, which we didn't, they stayed with the property that was in very good condiion, and they didn't have to rebuild from scratch.     If they had told us, we will pay you your residual value when your week is re-sold, we would all have been happy with that.


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## ilene13 (Apr 7, 2013)

Everyone is stuck on the issue of residuals.  No other timeshare company that I know of has ever offered residuals especially a RTU property. We own 3 RR weeks and 4 Marriott weeks.  We have bought and sold another 8 weeks from various developers.  We purchased our timeshares with the idea of guaranteed vacations and priceless family memories. They were not purchased as a financial investment only an investment of vacations.  If we or our heirs receive residuals from the RS and RH it is a bonus.  

Also, Ellis in one of your first posts you say get a Mexican lawyer.  You list that you are from Mexico, therefore you should be able to find one!


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 8, 2013)

ilene13 said:


> Everyone is stuck on the issue of residuals.  No other timeshare company that I know of has ever offered residuals especially a RTU property. We own 3 RR weeks and 4 Marriott weeks.  We have bought and sold another 8 weeks from various developers.  We purchased our timeshares with the idea of guaranteed vacations and priceless family memories. They were not purchased as a financial investment only an investment of vacations.  If we or our heirs receive residuals from the RS and RH it is a bonus.
> 
> Also, Ellis in one of your first posts you say get a Mexican lawyer.  You list that you are from Mexico, therefore you should be able to find one!



Ilene, it doesn't matter what OTHER timeshares have sold to you.  THIS timeshare was sold with the concept of residual value.  That is why I bought 8 weeks.  Otherwise, I would have only bought 2 weeks, perhaps another 2 weeks... That is why I renewed for 30 more years, at V.C.I.  

Our contract says that we will have vacations and priceless family memories, AND ALSO receive the residual value at the end of the term.   It doesn't matter if other timeshares do not have this, this one did.

What makes me feel that there is something "fishy" going on is that I believe that a logical businessman will always try to earn money, and not give up a possible income of many millions of dollars... 

(eg, 200 villas for 50 weeks at an average of about $8,000 residual value is  roughly $80,000,000 dollars... According to the contract the first $80,000,000 would be paid to us, the next $80,000,000 is paid to them, and if there is more than $160,000,000 it is divided equally...  

Don't you think that the average week could be sold as a timeshare for $16,000 or more?   How much for the least, how much for the most?  $8000 the least (september, october) and $50,000 (week 51, 52) the most, perhaps $20,000 Jan, Feb, March, July, and August?) 

That the developers are telling us that a beachfront property of 10,000 square meters with all the buildings has gone DOWN in value, and that THEY (the BEST experts on sales of timeshares) can't resell it as a timeshare, and they were telling us that land in CanCun was $4,000 per square meter when they build the Royal Sands... and now they are telling us that it is worth $40,000,000 so they will NOT TRY to earn $80,000,000 (or more) 

It all smells VERY FISHY... 

I DON'T BELIEVE ANY BUSINESS MAN voluntarily tries NOT to receive $80,000,000 unless they have a devious plan to get MORE.

NOBODY has defended the Royal Resorts more than I have, until now.  I have always defended that they were the best on Planet Earth.   And now, for the first time in 33 years, I feel that they are going to cheat us.  I hope I am mistaken, but... I am never mistaken... I can read what is coming, in what they write.   Until now, I had always said this is not true, it is not going to happen, but now I see it is happening.

If they wanted to auction it, they could have told each of us to place a bid to buy our own timeshare week, which would go to the developers... and if we do not bid to rebuy, then it would be sold on the market and we would receive part of the sale price, and they would receive part of the resale price too.   THIS MAKES SENSE.   

Selling it for $44,000,000 and they get zero, does NOT MAKE SENSE.   So there is something fishy going on.


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## tonyg (Apr 9, 2013)

Ellis, are you telling me the Royals made money or broke even on the re-up on VCI ? It was a cash flow disaster, indicated by the multi-payment payout on the residuals. Last I heard they had quite a few units that have not been resold.

As to the Mayan, maybe they can't get more than 44 million for the resort. They cannot control the price offered for the resort in an open sale and perhaps are reluctant to keep it based on the VCI experience. Maybe you get out that old hat and cape and make the price go higher.


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## pjrose (Apr 10, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> Geoff... The company is not doing what it should do to make this a real auction.  They are not seeking bidders.  They are not trying to sell to Fiesta Americana or to Sheraton or Hilton or Marriott, etc...
> 
> . . . .



How do you know they aren't seeking bidders?  Them keeping it confidential doesn't lead me to that conclusion.


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## X-ring (Apr 10, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> Our contract says that we will [...] receive the residual value at the end of the term.



In my contract the text immediately preceding this in Declarations Sixth says _"... sales proceeds after first deducting taxes, commissions, and other appropriate charges and expenses, will be distributed in accordance with ... 1) residual rights..."_

It seems clear to me that, given the sequencing of the text  *the specific residual rights amount specified in Addendum 1 is not a guaranteed amount.*

Does your contract differ?  If not, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the residual rights is a guaranteed amount?  

Thanks.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 11, 2013)

X-ring said:


> In my contract the text immediately preceding this in Declarations Sixth says _"... sales proceeds after first deducting taxes, commissions, and other appropriate charges and expenses, will be distributed in accordance with ... 1) residual rights..."_
> 
> It seems clear to me that, given the sequencing of the text  *the specific residual rights amount specified in Addendum 1 is not a guaranteed amount.*
> 
> ...



I don't get anywhere that it is a guaranteed amount.   I get that the contract says the developers would not get one penny until we got our residual value, which is why I always thought we would get our residuals, as we did in V.C.I., because I trust that the developers will TRY to sell the property at the highest possible price, so that we would get full residuals and they would get an equal amount.  

That is the INCENTIVE that they have that we should get our residuals, because it allows THEM to EARN many millions too.  I believe that honest businessmen will always try to maximize their income, honestly.  

In this case, they SHOULD be TRYING to EARN residuals AFTER WE have been paid our full residuals, as they did at V.C.I. and that means they should either be re-selling it as a timeshare, or having an open auction where it is widely advertised that the Royal Mayan is going to go to the highest bidder.  That is not happening.  

That is why I am afraid that something is fishy.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 11, 2013)

pjrose said:


> How do you know they aren't seeking bidders?  Them keeping it confidential doesn't lead me to that conclusion.



When have you ever heard that an auction is not advertised as widely as possible?   

Where is the web page that tells potential bidders how to bid?

If we get full residuals, then I was mistaken, and I will apologize for doubting their wisdom.   

Cash flow, if they sold the Royal Mayan as a timeshare, that could be worked out.   We would be happy to be paid our residuals after our particular villa-week is sold.   

But selling the Royal Mayan as a timeshare was not even an option on the straw "ballot" that they claim that shows that we voted for them to sell the Royal Mayan as a unit.

If we get anything less than full residuals, which we could get if they would re-sell the Royal Mayan as a timeshare, then nobody will ever be able to convince me that they aren't pulling a stunt on us, because honest businessmen would try to earn a few dozen million dollars, if they can earn it.    And there is no doubt that they could earn it if they would try to re-sell the Royal Mayan as a timeshare, as they did at V.C.I.

What they are saying that they are going to do is not in the best interest of the Developers, which is why I am suspicious that they are doing something more devious.  According to how the money of the sale of the Royal Mayan is stipulated in the contract, ie, first we get our residual values, then the Developers would get an equal amount... 

I cannot believe that they are going to sell it for less than gives us our residual values, which leaves them zero, unless they have another plan: NOT to give us our residual values, but YES to get THEIR residual value: which is to win the entire Royal Mayan in a fake auction.  I think they are going to sell the Mayan to their own corporation for a little above zero (ie, $30,000,000 minus expenses and liquidations to themselves as employees, etc.) 

In the meantime, from comments that are appearing on the internet, they have already shot the great reputation they once had to bits.   I think they shot themselves in the foot.  I am sure that it is reflected in much slower sales at the Royal Haciendas or V.C.I.  ("Royal CanCun")

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say.   I expect that a corporation that nobody has ever heard about until then will appear out of thin air and will win the bidding, against other corporations that nobody has ever heard of, and that will also appear out of thin air to make it all seem like there was an auction.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 12, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> If we get full residuals, then I was mistaken, and I will apologize for doubting their wisdom..



Well... here's something... Maybe I will have to apologize...

The salesmen at the Royal Mayan assured somebody who is there right now that WE WILL GET OUR FULL RESIDUALs...  That person told them exactly what I told her to tell them, so they know exactly how I think, and they say we will get our full residuals.   

I don't know how they intend to do this if they sell the Royal Mayan for $30,000,000 but... they said there is "a plan" which we will be told soon...

So, I will shut up and stop being pessimistic, and I will wait and see... In 36 years, I have never been unhappy with the Royal Resorts, and I hope in the next 36 years I won't be unhappy either.

It all still seems pretty fishy to me... And I will still be unhappy that we can't renew at the Royal Mayan... but maybe they really do want us to receive full residuals...

If Richard Sutton is still involved in the decision making, we'll all come out happy.  Whatever is the plan, if he is involved, I know he wants everybody to come out well.


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## pjrose (Apr 13, 2013)

Ellis, I do understand your point about them getting nothing if they sell it at a price no higher than the full residuals, and I understand what you mean about it seeming odd that business people would turn down the opportunity to make millions, hence perhaps they are cooking up some kind of opportunity.  Maybe that's the case.

I do not have the RI contract available at the moment, but if I recall correctly, the members get 100% of the highest sales price, (minus the usual expenses), no split with the developers.  When I mentioned that to the salesperson, the response was "well, they've already got enough from the other resorts, so they don't need any more."  It sounded a little unusual, but possible.  

That may have been complete BS, but just throwing it out to think about.


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## Ellis2ca (Apr 14, 2013)

*The Invisible Hand of Adam Smith*



pjrose said:


> When I mentioned that to the salesperson, the response was "well, they've already got enough from the other resorts, so they don't need any more."  It sounded a little unusual, but possible.
> 
> That may have been complete BS, but just throwing it out to think about.



You are referring to Royal Islander, and I am referring to Royal Mayan.  We'll worry about Royal Islander in another 
15 or so years.   Right now, let's concentrate on Royal Mayan.   

What the salesman told you shows that he is ignorant.   It is complete BS... I assure you, in good capitalist economic theory,  a business always works to maximize profits.  

This is fundamental economic theory:  Adam Smith (like Isaac Newton to physics, Adam Smith in economics) "profit" is the invisible hand that drives every economy.   (capitalist, and communist too.)

"They've already got enough from the other resorts, so they don't need anymore" are words spoken by somebody who is ignorant.  The Developers and every business will always try to maximize their profits.   

If they are honest, that would force them to attempt to get us our full residual value.  

If they are dishonest, they would try to not get us our full residuals but still get their share of the residuals (which is to stay with the property at the least cost to them.)

I see re-selling the Royal Mayan as a timeshare as the best and only way to get us our residuals.

And re-selling the Royal Mayan in an auction in what they are trying to convince us is a depressed market and which according to their (absurd) valuation $44,000,000 will not get us not even half of our residuals and will get them zero, so this is THE LAST way for them to get residual value, unless there is something devious going on.

This is why I am saying there is something very fishy going on.  

But they are saying that there is a plan for us to get our full residuals.   

As I said, if we all get our full residuals, then I will be forced to apologize and I will be happy to apologize for having doubted this bad plan.   

But... I am not mistaken on this:  If they sell the Royal Mayan in an auction that is not being publicized, and we get less than 100% (as we will if they sell it for $44,000,000 or less) and they get zero, then it is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN by "the invisible hand" that something dishonest occurred and something dishonest happened under the table.

The "invisible hand" of Adam Smith also moves businessmen to try to be dishonest if they can get away with it.   And this APPEARS to be what they are planning to do: give us less or none of our full residuals, but yes to get their full residuals...

I hope this is not the case... but they continue to say that the Royal Mayan will be sold in auction... . 

And this is what I say is going to happen too, if they cheat us out of our residuals: we will publicize their scam (if it occurs) on Facebook and Blogs and Twitter and Pinterest etc.   Their reputation will sink to the bottom.

I assure you their reputation will be ruined.   And reputation is like virginity: once you lose it, it is gone forever.   

I can't believe they would allow their amazingly good reputation to go to pot.  But that is what they say they are going to do.   I would die if my reputation would sink so low.

In the meantime, unlike in the past when I was a convinced fan of the Royal Resorts, I would not buy a timeshare from the developers anymore.   I bought 5 weeks on 4 different occasions through the developers, in the past, but, now, I don't like what is going on.   

They have already ruined their reputation with me... and I suspect, with many others too.

As I said, the salesmen are assuring my friend who is in Can Cun right now that we will get 100% residuals.   

I don't see how it can be done if they don't resell the Royal Mayan as a timeshare again.   

But I will calm down for the moment, and wait to see what happens.

This post is as calmed down as I can get.


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## geoffb (Apr 16, 2013)

Ellis2ca said:


> Cash flow, if they sold the Royal Mayan as a timeshare, that could be worked out.   We would be happy to be paid our residuals after our particular villa-week is sold.



I think that is unlikely. People complained about being paid their residuals for VCI (in full!) in installments. Waiting for a unit to be sold could take years. There are units at VCI still unsold six years after the renewal of the trust.

The current push to sell out the Royal Haciendas speaks to the company wanting to get cash in hand for construction of the Grand Residences. They are splitting units in ways that we have never seen before to get into price ranges for a larger number of people. I do not think they want to take on the impact of a purchase, renovation and sales effort for the Royal Mayan even if it has the potential to be profitable long term. This is about cash flow.


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## tonyg (Apr 19, 2013)

Ellis, you may be a bit confused between profit and greed and you certainly are becoming a bit obnoxious in your once a decade anti Royals tirade. The more I see and calculate the less I expect any of the Royals from the Mayan on will get a full residual payback. I always questioned the ability to sell the resorts for as much money or more that would be required for the full payback. The Royals already tasted what would happen if they bought back a resort and resold it and I don't think they will repeat that. It's about time you faced the fact that you and other Mayan owners will be getting 50% or less of the residual amount, but I wouldn't be surprised if you continued to rant on and make all kinds of baseless allegations.


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## X-ring (Apr 20, 2013)

> if you continued to rant on and make all kinds of baseless allegations.



Hopefully, yesterday's letter to members will provide a sober, second thought to some:

_"... It is very important for all members to understand that speculating or *making false accusations* [ed: that the Company is being less than open about the process involving the sale of the resort] would damage the process and affect all the members; therefore these cases will be dealt with immediately and parties can be held liable for any material damage done to the process as a consequence of their actions. Please help us to protect the integrity of the process." 

Best Regards to all
Dr. Kemil A. Rizk
President and CEO Royal Resorts_


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