# Cooling off period but NO contracts



## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Yesterday we purchased time share with Wyndham in Hawaii for $18000 approx..
My spouse does not feel comfortable with the purchase for a number of reasons..

They have mailed all our contracts and books to our address though..

How do we use our rights during the cooling off period to cancel if we don't have a copy of the contract?

Also, we would rather not go back and waste our time dealing with the sales staff.. Is there a number we could call to cancel??

Thanks
Brooke


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## ronparise (Dec 15, 2012)

Your spouse is right to feel that way, or put another way if either one of you is uncomfortable with the decision, rescind now....If after some sudy you deide you want this thing, you can always come back to it (I dont think you will, but you could)

I think the rescission period in Hawaii is 7 calendar days, The info you need should be on the purchase and sales agreement (contract) just above the signatures. You should have 7 days from the time you get the signed agreement, which should be from the time you get it at home.  But I think the Hawaii sales people mail this stuff to eat up some of the rescission period.

The contract Im looking at (written in Florida, in 2010) gives this address
Wyndhan Vacation Resorts Inc
attn Account Controls and Administration
PO Box 94443 Las Vegas Nevada 89193


I usually would counsel you not to return to the sales room, But in this case I think you should have a contract number to reference in the letter, and I think you should make sure you have the correct address to send it to...things may have changed in the last two years since I did this.

If you cant get the info I suggest you need, write the letter anyway, referencing the time and place you signed and the salesman you worked with and a detailed description of what you bought

I hereby rescind my purchase of xxx number of points deeded at the xyz resort. Contract signed with your salesman JT at about this time  on that date. If you signed at a different place than the resort you bought, Id specify that fact too. Id also promise to send a copy of the contract as soon as its given to you by Wyndham

As I said the letter will be easier to write if you had a copy of your contract...so like it or not Id get myself to the sales room again


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 15, 2012)

I agree with Ron that you should go back to the sales group. I would start by asking the checkin staff member, that you are there to pickup your paperwork from the GREAT DEAL you brought yesterday. Ask for the Member's Directory to start learning the resorts. They can print off a totally new copy of the paperwork (doubt it they mailed your package YET) and should have your member number to set up your ONLINE account.

From the member number and online access, you can get YOUR CONTRACT number; but hopefully, they will just give you your package.

If you don't hint or mention YOU need this info to cancel, they will still be your NEW BEST FRIEND and give you the info you need INDIRECTLY to immediately cancel this impulse purchase.


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks Ron..
Very helpful advice!

Any advice on how we go about and ask for a copy of our contract without making them suspicious?? I really don't want to deal with the pressure especially given that I have food poisoning  

Thanks 
Brooke


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## ronparise (Dec 15, 2012)

I should add that my wife and I rescinded in 2010. we sent a fax, we sent the letter and we called. They did begin work with the fax, but Im not sure who we sent it to, we were bounced around Wyndham, on the phone a bunch until they got us to the right dept, that gave us the right fax number....and I dont have it now

You could start your phone calls with financial services, thay are located in Las Vegas too

I read what you said about not wanting to waste time on this, but Im afraid you will have to spend some time to undo what you did...and I can assure you it will be worth it

Financial services phone number is 800-251-8736  option 2...They probably wont be able to help directly, but perhaps can transfer you to the right place...remember though your rescission letter has to be in writing


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## ronparise (Dec 15, 2012)

Holy cow...food  poisoning too...Im sure you probably want to die right now, but you wont.... you will get better

Perhaps you can use the food poisoning to your advantage. ...just make the request as Linda suggests, ask where the toilet is and perhaps throw up on their desk for dramatic effect. They will get you out of there with what you want in a hurry


Seriously though...let them know that you will be traveling to other places after you leave hawaii and wont be home for weeks...You want to have your information as soon as possible and you dont want to have to wait until you get home. (perhaps months from now.)


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks vacation hopeful! 
Will follow advice..
Can they refuse to print off the contract again stating that its been mailed??
We won't be back home for another 2 months..


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks Ron..
Hoping that they don't give us the runaround with printing another copy! 

Food poisoning from sushi


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 15, 2012)

Follow the K.I.S.S. principal. 

Keep it simple! Ask the "make nice" sign in person; be happy with the NEW purchase  ; and even if they get you a higher up sales person, THEY DO NOT want to ruin your happy camper mood. You will get your contract copy --- and they have a TON of those member directories --- ask to get one and to PLAN your new vacations! 

Mentioning that YOU need the info to cancel will ruin your day as they will JUST jerk you around, that you have to come back SUNDAY or MONDAY or see this or that SALES MANAGER --- it is JUST A STALL to let the cancellation deadline expire on you. Remember, the cancellation has to be written and YOU need proof of the mailing via Certified Mail, with Return Receipt Green & White receipted stamped by the post office YOU are mailing it from.


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

They don't need to re-sign do they?
The sales staff didn't sign, Quality Assurance did..

An unsigned copy should be enough??

They will become suspicious if I ask them for another signed agreement..

It's only the actual sales document I need I'm assuming??


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 15, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> They don't need to re-sign do they?
> The sales staff didn't sign, Quality Assurance did..
> 
> An unsigned copy should be enough?? *SHOULD BE ENOUGH*.
> ...



Yes, you need the CONTRACT NUMBER to easily rescind and you want to make sure you have the correct mailing address (Ron cited an address that he knows was 2+ years old).

I truly do not believe that they mailed that stuff out yet. They email everything to everyone. The official documents (the signed docs) are shipped to where they keep the real paper trail (most likely Las Vegas).


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 15, 2012)

Remember, YOU are happy new buyers! Just be happy and don't worry! If you over think this, you will queer the moment.


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Happy happy!! Yes!  Hard to be happy after bad ushi  
Need contract number and will ask for it today when they are opened.. 

Thanks  
Brooke


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## kimberley8 (Dec 15, 2012)

Did a rescind in August 2012

Sent to : Name of Resort
             c/o Wyndham Consumer Finance
             Account Controls & Administration
             PO Box 94443
             10750 West Charleston Blvd. Suite 130
             Las Vegas, NV 89193

I also faxed to : 407-370-5193 & 702-304-4217

Good Luck!
Since then I have picked up two - one -ebay & the other from another TUG member!


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## MFT (Dec 15, 2012)

I also rescinded a contract a few years ago, and not only sent a copy of the letter and copy of the contract to Las Vegas office, but also to their Orlando HQ office, and for the fun of it, their sales office where I bought it.  No reason for cancelling is necessary.  

Now, if you don't want to go to the sales office, call over and ask that they e-mail you an imaged copy of it.  You can tell them you are forwarding it to your accountant to see if there are any tax benefits you can take for 2013...  It's a legit question, and they should have it in imaging and be able to send it to you this way.  If they refuse, then state that you would still like a copy before you leave, and could they have it ready for you to pick up at X:XX time, and you'll pop over and simply pick it up.  

Bottom line, rescind ASAP, and if you still want to purchase, go resale.


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## brookealfred (Dec 15, 2012)

Kimberley8 and MFT, thanks!!
Brilliant!

Wish us luck! Will update how it went 

Brooke


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## brookealfred (Dec 16, 2012)

Hmm, I'm just not sure now.. 
They have offered us a bonus 216,000 points and dropped the price down to $15,200..

As we are complete novices, what is your opinion??
The place is in Waikiki..

Thanks
Brooke


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## 55plus (Dec 16, 2012)

I bought 308,000 points at Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk for under $200 on the resell market. Free closing and the seller paid the transfer fee...

You can save tens of thousands of dollars by buying the same thing through a reseller. Get out of it before it's too late. Save everything and send the rescind letter receipt return.


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## brookealfred (Dec 16, 2012)

You are kidding!!  They made it seem that Waikiki was hot property!!
And yet the resale value was tokenistic..

We really need to get into the resell market!
How does one do that?

Speechless
Brooke


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## GrayFal (Dec 16, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Hmm, I'm just not sure now..
> They have offered us a bonus 216,000 points and dropped the price down to $15,200..
> 
> As we are complete novices, what is your opinion??
> ...


Read below...



morrisjim said:


> I bought 308,000 points at Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk for under $200 on the resell market. Free closing and the seller paid the transfer fee...
> 
> You can save tens of thousands of dollars by buying the same thing through a reseller. Get out of it before it's too late. Save everything and send the rescind letter receipt return.



Rescind.


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## MFT (Dec 16, 2012)

Did they give you the contract?

Rescind, as you can pick up Wyndham points on Ebay whenever you want for pennies on the dollar.  If you have a specific resort in Hawaii you absolutely want because of ARP, still go E-bay (there are 35 Wyndham Hawaii properties on E-bay right now).

Remember, it's Wyndham points... you can use them wherever you want.  I bought La Belle Maison in 2005, and haven't ever stayed there (the MF's are on the low end).  It's better to rescind, get home, and research.  And before you buy, ask online advise (or message those you feel comfortable with), for their advise.  And read as much as you can on this forum.  Lots of great advise.

Aloha!


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## brookealfred (Dec 16, 2012)

Yes, they finally gave me the contract.. It took time apparently because it was in a different location  I just smiled.

We noticed that they added the postage fee to our contract - something we were told that they were going to cover.. $50 mind you!!

So I'm drafting the letter now and will mail and fax it tomorrow..
Should I also send a copy of the contract too??

What really irked me was the different people who signed our contract and yet when we asked for their cards, the cards never transpired.

To add insult to injury, the original Wyndham contact LOST my credit card details along with all my contact information - he claims he was riding his moped and had an accident and lost the paper work..
I had to cancel my credit card and unfortunately all my bills, including electricity, are debited from this account.. NO acknowledgement from the company for the position we are now in..

I thought that was poor form.

Thanks
Brooke


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## csxjohn (Dec 17, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Yes, they finally gave me the contract.. It took time apparently because it was in a different location  I just smiled.
> 
> We noticed that they added the postage fee to our contract - something we were told that they were going to cover.. $50 mind you!!
> 
> ...



You are over thinking this.  Just draft a simple letter and send it where and how your contract says to send it.  

You don't really believe that story, do you?  They will never stop lying to you.  I would not have canceled my card.  I would have called the CC company and explain the situation and ask them you watch for fraudulent activity.  Credit cards are very safe if you watch what you are getting billed for.


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## brookealfred (Dec 17, 2012)

The Wyndham representative has not shown his face back to the hotel we are staying at.  I did find that odd.i also found it odd that the sales person did not want us to use the Wyndham shuttle service to return us back to our hotel. 

Too many things do not add up. 

I'm now paranoid that our letter will go missing!!
Will fax and ring too..

Thanks
Brooke


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## MFT (Dec 17, 2012)

Amazing the level they will go to displease you, as they I am sure are suspecting you are going to cancel your contract.  

Make sure when you mail the letter, you send it priority mail, and have a signature required.  Also, photocopy the envelope with the postage date shown.  The rescind is based on the mailing date, not when they get it.

I have a copy of the rescind letter I sent Wyndham if you would like a copy.  I had our attorney review it prior to sending it.

Be careful, as Hawaii law requires you to return all materials with the letter.  In our case, we returned the packet of materials they gave us on the timeshare, which included the directory, and all material provided at the meeting.  I included a full copy of all documents presented.

http://hawaii.gov/dcca/pvl/faqs/timeshare_faq.pdf

Carl


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 17, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> The Wyndham representative has not shown his face back to the hotel we are staying at.  I did find that odd.i also found it odd that the sales person did not want us to use the Wyndham shuttle service to return us back to our hotel.
> 
> Too many things do not add up.
> 
> ...



And that is why they are called SALES WEASALS! 

The credit card crap is one of the worst stories I have heard - moped accident and losing the paperwork.

As for the shuttle, that is a more common ruse than you might think. And it was to hassle you and keep you from messing with their other "dupes". 

I would NOT put it pass them to have a person who does word searches on the web and discovered your posts on TUG. It appears you might have used your real first names and you did state the resort name. 

But Welcome to TUG!


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## 55plus (Dec 17, 2012)

*Get the facts, Join TUG*



brookealfred said:


> You are kidding!!  They made it seem that Waikiki was hot property!!
> And yet the resale value was tokenistic..
> 
> We really need to get into the resell market!
> ...



Don't get me wrong, Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk is great - downtown Waikiki with the world famous Waikiki Beach a block away, etc. It's my wife's favorite resort (I think it's the shopping she really likes). Just like every other timeshare, they are not worth what the developers ask for them. We're heading to Waikiki for 2 weeks next month and we have another two weeks up for rent. We bought ours on eBay. Save money and do the same. I watch what's being sold and where. I'm not buying anymore, just watching. Feel free to email us: Jim@Morris.net. 

I suggest you join TUG. You'll get a better understanding of the timeshare industry and can gather feedback from those who have owned and rented timeshares for a long time.


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## 55plus (Dec 17, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> You are kidding!!  They made it seem that Waikiki was hot property!!
> And yet the resale value was tokenistic..
> 
> We really need to get into the resell market!
> ...





brookealfred said:


> Yes, they finally gave me the contract.. It took time apparently because it was in a different location  I just smiled.
> 
> We noticed that they added the postage fee to our contract - something we were told that they were going to cover.. $50 mind you!!
> 
> ...



Make sure when you mail your rescind letter you include the contract number and it's mailed to the address specified on the rescind instructions of the contract they gave you. Mail with a return receipt request so you'll have proof it was received and will have a name of who signed it. 

So in other words your personal information and credit information is/was lost on the streets in Honolulu somewhere? It's time to signup for a company to freeze your credit so you don't become a victim of credit thrift and fraud.

Which resort were thy selling? Waikiki Beach Walk or Royal Garden at Waikiki?


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## Tia (Dec 17, 2012)

*Exactly as this and the contract says or you won't be rescinding
*



morrisjim said:


> Make sure when you mail your rescind letter you include the contract number and it's mailed to the address specified on the rescind instructions of the contract they gave you. Mail with a return receipt request so you'll have proof it was received and will have a name of who signed it.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 17, 2012)

Reiterating other posters  sage advice on  following instructions precisely.  Just think that poor sales  weasel   just saw his Christmas  shopping money vaporize and sales manager is short for bonus.

The address listed by Kim is about same as  Directory. The Directory  states box #98940 which is for  general mail  while  recessions go  to a specific box but all suite #130. Let the P.O. do your sorting.

The fax # 702-304-4217  is same as Directory.

When  one one is on vacation is not a good time to buy a  timeshare. Looking  is great for  future purchase resale or  doing an exchange.  Kinda like going grocery shopping when hungry and no list.

Losing the paperwork only affirms their   creativity is only limited by  ones imagination.


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## MFT (Dec 17, 2012)

Below is the template of what we used for our rescind letter.  We paid our attorney to review it, and he felt it hit on the points required of the contract, as well as the little extra "meat" of stating the State statute.



Name
Street
City, State, Zip
Phone
Email


Revocation Letter:  Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc., 
Contract Number:  *************
Dated: ***********

I hereby rescind my contract or agreement for sale of RESORT NAME with Wyndham Vacation Resorts to purchase timeshare Contract Number ********** -  *00000 Points, Deeded at Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc./RESORT NAME  We are exercising our legal right to cancel this contract. We expect a full refund of our deposit of $**,***.**, in the credit card sale of WVR Down Payment, Order ID *******, Contract Number ************, Mastercard ending in **** **/2012.  We also expect full refund of our deposit of $****,** in the "Bill Me Later" program, WVR Down Payment order ID *******, Contract Number ***************, Payment account number ending ****. Do not make any charges to my credit card.

A Notarized copy of this Revocation Letter has been sent to the following address pursuant to Revocation requirements and according to Tennessee Statutes which states:  
Purchase Cancellation
“You may cancel a contract to purchase a time-share interval within Number (XX)* Days from the date of Contract, where you have made an on-site inspection of the Time-Share Project before signing the contract, AND, if you have not made such an inspection, within fifteen (15) days from the date of the contract.  If you elect to cancel, you may do so by hand delivering notice to the seller at 10750 West Charleston Blvd., Suite 130, Las Vegas, Nevada 89135-1026 within the designated period, or by mailing notice to the seller (or his agent for service of process) by prepaid United States Mail, Attention: Account Controls and Administration at PO Box 94443, Las Vegas, Neveda 89193, Postmarked anytime within the designated period".

Per instructions from SALESMAN NAME Customer Service Representative/RESORT NAME, we are also sending the original document package and the owner starter kit in tote bag with the Revocation Letter.

CC of letter will be sent certified mail to the following:
Owner Relations 
Wyndham Vacation Resorts
8427 SouthPark Circle, Suite 500
Orlando, FL 32819

Wyndham Vacation Resorts - Financial Services
P.O. Box 98940
Las Vegas, NV 89193-8940

Sales Office: c/o SALESMAN NAME
Wyndham Vacation Resorts RESORT NAME
STREET
CITY, ST, ZIP


***Below is just TN state statute, but is not required.  You can search the internet for the state of purchase law, and add it here if you wish.
Please note we maintain our rights under Tennessee Code Annotated 52-13-312, that we may file a complaint with the Tennessee Real Estate Commission located at 500 James Robertson Pkwy, Nashville, TN  37243-1151 if our specific instructions above are not completed in a timely manner.

Thank you for your cooperation and assistance with this matter.

Regards, 
____________________________________
Your Name

____________________________________
Spouces Name




____________________________________
Witness


____________________________________


Date:  ***  **, ****


* Spell out number (Ex: TEN), and then put in the numeric number:  Ten (10 Days).


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## MFT (Dec 17, 2012)

We purchased our TS from Wyndham, a week before Katrina!  Upon returning home, we tried to reach out to the resort, as we had concerns and questions, and of course no one was there.  We called Wyndham, and they had no record of our purchase.  Not to worry, it would all be sorted out when they got back on their feet in New Orleans.  I stated that I might be interested in cancelling though, and was told "oh, we can't do anything at this point... it's a natural disaster, and as stated, we don't even know where your file is.  I'm sure this will get all straightened out when everything is back in order".  Well, I of course took his word, and about 60 day, contacted Wyndham again, as we had not been billed, no account, etc...  Still working on it they said.  So at 90 days, I called, and stated I wanted to cancel.  Sorry, past the number of days!  But you said not to worry...  because of this disaster, I could do it later.  Nope, sorry, it's a state law, not ours...

No regrets, as it got us into Timesharing, and we love it.  Since then though, I have not trusted anything Wyndham has told me, which is really to bad...


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## brookealfred (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks for all that!
Have used the template thanks!

I'm trying to call the accounts control in Nevada to inform them that we will be rescinding as priority mail from Hawaii can take up to 3-4 days!

I have never been screwed around so much on hold. They are really trying to make things difficult.  


And yes, stupidly used my name on this forum  

Anyone have the email address for accounts control and administration in Nevada?  

Thanks
Brooke


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 17, 2012)

Don't have for Vegas Operation but following is for Owner Relations in Orlando.  Technically you are an owner so give it a shot!

shelly.griessel@wyn.com  Title is something like VP Owner Relations

If you have a name in Vegas e-mail addresses are  following format:

first name.last name@wyn.com

I have noted Wyndham sales does not give out cards, about only salespeople that don't.  But then they never want to hear from you again!  Wham, bam, thank you mam!


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## timeos2 (Dec 17, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Thanks for all that!
> Have used the template thanks!
> 
> I'm trying to call the accounts control in Nevada to inform them that we will be rescinding as priority mail from Hawaii can take up to 3-4 days!
> ...



It is the date you mail it - not when they get it - that counts. Don't waste your time /money calling anyone. Just send the rescind letter and be done with retail sales (I was horrified to see they almost got you anyway with more slick maneuvering back on your message of page 1 of the thread. Then you were wised up & realized $15K is $14K + TOO MUCH for any Wyndham Points regardless of what resort. Points are points!)

While even any resale Wyndham is no longer the deal they used to be due to the many negative moves they have made it is still one of the best values for the available locations / purchase price / fees you'll find in all of timeshare. But you have to bt for next to nothing as that money will never be recovered.  If it's pennies on the retail dollar you don't care!


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## MFT (Dec 17, 2012)

I stated this before, but ask the post office if they can give you a photo copy of the front of the envelope with the dated stamp on it, as proof of the mailing date.


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## brookealfred (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks again!!  All of you have saved us with such sage advice!
They literally grabbed us after a long 11 hour flight.. We were with them for close to 6 hours!

The post office does not photocopy as we were told today!!
But I have a copy of the certified mail receipt with the date on it..

I faxed it to the rescissions dept in Nevada and sent a copy to Nevada and also sent a copy to our sales staff in Honolulu just for good measure. 

The timeshare was Royal Gardens. 

The salesperson never gave us our receipt for postage and we really don't trust that she sent it. They can keep the $25 as it will costs us more to mail it back IF it ever arrives.

The salesperson didn't even give us her Wyndham email address, just her yahoo one. She also 'accidentally misplaced' the card from the guy who signed our forms. 

And she took us to the Wyndham Beachwalk timeshare instead of Royal Gardens. The day we asked for a copy of the contracts she took us to Royal Gardens!

We would buy resell as their actual product is fine - the sales staff however need to be more transparent. 

Thanks
Brooke


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## brookealfred (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok, am a bit worried that they will try to claim that they didn't receive our letter. I rang the Nevada office and I was informed that it hadn't been noted yet - he thinks it should be by tomorrow.

Have followed the advice from this group which I'm sure will leave me in good stead.

Leaving to Europe on Thursday and I want the contract cancelled before then. Don't need to be worrying about our moment of weakness while travelling through the Swiss Alps!

Am I being paranoid that they will try to screw us over?? I have read too many unsavoury stories online


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Ok, am a bit worried that they will try to claim that they didn't receive our letter. I rang the Nevada office and I was informed that it hadn't been noted yet - he thinks it should be by tomorrow.
> 
> Have followed the advice from this group which I'm sure will leave me in good stead.
> 
> ...



Go & enjoy. If you mailed it with proof it was within the days allowed you are OK. Wyndham cannot hold you to it but they may not actually acknowledge it for 30 days or so. Meanwhile, don't sweat it. You are free of a bad retail timeshare purchase.


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## MFT (Dec 18, 2012)

Most states have a 15 day window they have to act on it.  Since you cancelled your CC, they can't charge you on that.  You have your copy of the rescind letter, and post office receipt.  You are fine.  Enjoy you trip!


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

No, they grabbed my Amex card!! The credit card details that the guy apparently lost were from a debit card visa and wyndham probably didn't  like that.. The guy even queried it but accepted it - until his apparent moped accident  

Thus my angst.. I don't want them touching my Amex!! They haven't deducted the deposit yet.. I'm hoping that Nevada cancels before money is taken.

Thanks
Brooke


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## csxjohn (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> No, they grabbed my Amex card!! The credit card details that the guy apparently lost were from a debit card visa and wyndham probably didn't  like that.. The guy even queried it but accepted it - until his apparent moped accident
> 
> Thus my angst.. I don't want them touching my Amex!! They haven't deducted the deposit yet.. I'm hoping that Nevada cancels before money is taken.
> 
> ...



Nevada is not going to cancel anything.  For now this is between you and Wyndham.

How in the world did your Amex card get involved?  You said you found out about them losing your info when you went back to get copies of your contract.

Just make sure you don't have 2 different contracts you need to rescind.  These guys will do and say anything to get their commission.  Even if you cancel all your credit cards, if you have a contract in force with them, they will come after you for all monies you signed away.

Gather your thoughts  and write yourself some notes so you know exactly what happened when.  Get this all done before you leave for the next leg of your vacation.


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

No I learnt about my credit card the morning of my free breakfast.. Apparently it had just happened so I stupidly handed over my Amex.. I quickly cancelled my debit visa at that time.. 

I thought Nevada does the cancellations - as in Wyndham rescissions department in Nevada.. Am I wrong? 

There is only one contract and the only card on it is my Amex.

Thanks
Brooke


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## csxjohn (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> No I learnt about my credit card the morning of my free breakfast.. Apparently it had just happened so I stupidly handed over my Amex.. I quickly cancelled my debit visa at that time..
> 
> I thought Nevada does the cancellations - as in Wyndham rescissions department in Nevada.. Am I wrong?
> 
> ...



Sorry, I thought you were talking about the state of NV.


As others have said, as long as you followed the rescission instructions, you will be fine.

I hope others read this thread before they go into a sales presentation so they can see how screwed up things can get.

Enjoy your vacation.


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks, so do I! 
I don't want anyone to have to go through this.

Brooke


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

Nevada office has my fax.  

On the contract it states that the deposit is $2,245.56 yet they withdrew $2,424.12..

On my letter I wrote the amount that was on my contract, not the amount withdrawn.  I rang the Nevada office this morning and they seem to think that I will be fully credited.. 

Is this common that they write one amount and withdraw more?? And if so, do they fully credit in the first instance or will I need to chase them??

Thanks
Brooke -


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## lcml11 (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Nevada office has my fax.
> 
> On the contract it states that the deposit is $2,245.56 yet they withdrew $2,424.12..
> 
> ...



This is getting way to complicated.  In addition to what you have already done, you may want to save yourself a bunch of headaches and call the reservation number and ask to be transferred to Owner Care and have them open a case for you on this matter.


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## IngridN (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> No, they grabbed my Amex card!! The credit card details that the guy apparently lost were from a debit card visa and wyndham probably didn't  like that.. The guy even queried it but accepted it - until his apparent moped accident
> 
> Thus my angst.. I don't want them touching my Amex!! They haven't deducted the deposit yet.. I'm hoping that Nevada cancels before money is taken.
> 
> ...



Dispute the charge with AmEx. I did the same thing when i decided to rescind a Hyatt purchase a few years ago. Hyatt had 21 days (IIRC) to credit the deposit back to the card and I did not want the charge to hit and the credit to take 21 days. Worked out great.

Ingrid


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 18, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> Nevada office has my fax.
> 
> On the contract it states that the deposit is $2,245.56 yet they withdrew $2,424.12..
> 
> ...



What does credit card slip you signed say?


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

Funny you say that and it went missing from their end.. We asked them a number of times for it. 

Rang Amex and they said they can't do anything for 5-6 weeks - that gives wyndham the time to restore the money back to the account..

Live and learn.. Stupid and foolish once.. Never again..

Brooke


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## brookealfred (Dec 18, 2012)

Oh the credit card has only the deposit 
The extra was another amount.. Amex said that because we signed a contract with Wyndham, we gave them 'permission' to do that!

Ugh
Brooke


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## Tia (Dec 20, 2012)

Maybe your credit card is as confused as I am with the details


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## Culli (Dec 20, 2012)

I have been following this thread and I also hope others read this and learn.  Never ever go for a free breakfast, gift card or whatever...who knows what will happen if you do.  One this is for certain just say NO and stick to it don't give in and nothing can happen.

I hope all this works out, but what a headache!


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## csxjohn (Dec 20, 2012)

Culli said:


> I have been following this thread and I also hope others read this and learn.  Never ever go for a free breakfast, gift card or whatever...who knows what will happen if you do.  One this is for certain just say NO and stick to it don't give in and nothing can happen.
> 
> I hope all this works out, but what a headache!



Exactly why I don't use my precious vaca time to try to pocket $100 or so.

Some people cave when the sales slime start to insult you and question your love for your spouse.  I tend to get angry when that happens and if it continues, who knows what will happen?  Better to just stay away.


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## brookealfred (Dec 29, 2012)

still waiting for my money to be refunded. i'm guessing that they will refund at the end of the 30 days!

learnt a valuable lesson and hope that i can help at least one person avoid making the same stupid mistake as i did. 

 one thing i did notice though is that in the week that i spent in waikiki, they never had the same salesperson more than once. every shift there was someone new. 

thanks again for all your help!

still feel like an idiot. 
brooke


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## MFT (Dec 29, 2012)

First off, don't feel bad.  You reacted immediately, and that's what is important.

Your next step is to find the Wyndham TS you want, and just follow the advise on this forum.  Don't jump at the first thing you see.  Remember, points are points, and unless there's a reason for locking into a specific resort, such as having ARP, go for the resort with low MF costs per point.  Try and keep your MFs at $5 or lower if you can.

Good luck!


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## lcml11 (Dec 29, 2012)

brookealfred said:


> still waiting for my money to be refunded. i'm guessing that they will refund at the end of the 30 days!
> 
> learnt a valuable lesson and hope that i can help at least one person avoid making the same stupid mistake as i did.
> 
> ...



With the current market, you may want to team up with someone that under uses their points and rent some of them to go to specific resorts and check them out before you buy.  Wyndham points have great flexability, however, the conditions of the resort and the location of the resorts can affect special assessments and your ability to sell the contract when you want to.

People with VIP Platium members can give some great prices with free guest passes and upgrades included in the asking price for rental.  There is talk of making a "quick nickle" on another thread off of rentals, so there could be a number of people that might do this.  I did this for one person and as far as I know, it worked out for both involved.  Wish you luck.

P.S. beware of advise that goes with buying the lowest maintance fees, you might just get what you paid for.


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## 55plus (Dec 29, 2012)

I rented to some people so they could see what timeshares are all about. Most found it to be better and less expensive to rent from me so I have repeat clientele. Take baby steps to see if this is something for you. We're retired and loving traveling and staying at quality places. So do my snowbird clientele.


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## MFT (Dec 29, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> P.S. beware of advise that goes with buying the lowest maintance fees, you might just get what you paid for.



How do you figure?  Points are points... Why buy a resort with MFs at $6+ when you can target a lower $MF?  I have three Wyndham TSs, and my bundled points work regardless of what I pay for the MFs, so why wouldn't you want to target resorts with lower MF costs?


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 29, 2012)

MFT said:


> How do you figure?  Points are points... Why buy a resort with MFs at $6+ when you can target a lower $MF?  I have three Wyndham TSs, and my bundled points work regardless of what I pay for the MFs, so why wouldn't you want to target resorts with lower MF costs?




Wyndham readily acknowledges (Annual 10K SEC Report  below)  that they subsidize MF on new projects.   They control BOD and   really no repair expense as brand new and  manufacturer warranties apply so token reserve!

Also, use points inflation to keep low. No problem if not staying there.

Then there  is $150+ parking fee. Again no problem if not staying there.

TUGGERS and many  others know go for low MF especially if ARP is not a concern.  So, lots of competition.

Say one pays $1K up front plus $600 closing costs to get low MF.

Someone else pays $1.00 and no closing costs, but MF are $100 higher.

It will take around  18+ years to break even!

But then   about 5 years down the road  BOD  makes a $500 SA as room furnishings are shot  and raises  future  MF  an extra 10%. Doubt there is a break even.   Ballpark if  replacement reserve is not around a $1.00 per 100K points  odds are a  SA is coming.

Very easy to check. Look at what reserve  fund  should be  at 12/31 and how much is in savings account to  actually fund!  If less than 50% guaranteed a SA is coming.  If less than say 90% then the deferred maintenance is going to increase.


Wyndham  2011 SEC  10K  Filing:

"Owners of vacation ownership interests pay annual maintenance fees to the property owners' associations responsible for managing the applicable
resorts or to the Clubs. The annual maintenance fee associated with the average vacation ownership interest purchased ranges from approximately $400 to
approximately $900. These fees generally are used to renovate and replace furnishings, pay operating, maintenance and cleaning costs, pay management fees
and expenses, and cover taxes (in some states), insurance and other related costs. Wyndham Vacation Ownership, as the owner of unsold inventory at resorts
or unsold interests in the Clubs, also pays maintenance fees in accordance with the legal requirements of the states or jurisdictions in which the resorts are
located. In addition, at certain newly-developed resorts, Wyndham Vacation Ownership sometimes enters into subsidy agreements with the property owners'
associations to cover costs that otherwise would be covered by annual maintenance fees payable with respect to vacation ownership interests that have not yet
been sold."


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## lcml11 (Dec 29, 2012)

MFT said:


> How do you figure?  Points are points... Why buy a resort with MFs at $6+ when you can target a lower $MF?  I have three Wyndham TSs, and my bundled points work regardless of what I pay for the MFs, so why wouldn't you want to target resorts with lower MF costs?



I think post 60 answered your question better than I can.  By the way there are other threads that have discussed this issue in more depth.  When the day is done, if one believes in Wyndham Points are Wyndham Points, go for it.  It is a simple system that can, in some cases, take one down the wrong path to the wrong finish line.


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## MFT (Dec 29, 2012)

No, don't get me wrong, I agree there are some people who take the low MF situation to the extreme, and pay way to much for a property because of that (Canterberry and Bali Hai come to mind).

I am not shooting for the high $3s MFs, but advising simply to try and 
hit on the lower end of things.  Just because "The Dells" is $1 on Ebay, I still not going to buy it...

I think your points also make ACCESS seem a good fit for many, as it spreads out the risk of rising MFs.  But these points are going for higher than the norm for points also.

I own properties I like to go to, and MFs are in the low $5s pretty much across the board.  Not the cheapest, but not the most expensive either.  And most are available for low $s on Ebay.


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## lcml11 (Dec 29, 2012)

MFT said:


> No, don't get me wrong, I agree there are some people who take the low MF situation to the extreme, and pay way to much for a property because of that (Canterberry and Bali Hai come to mind).
> 
> I am not shooting for the high $3s MFs, but advising simply to try and
> hit on the lower end of things.  Just because "The Dells" is $1 on Ebay, I still not going to buy it...
> ...



I think this anlysis is a very good one and the target is about right.  A little higher (under 6) if ARP is important for where you want to go.

There is also a middle ground where maintance fees are low and the resorts are in good shape such as National Harbor, Towers on the Grove, and Smokey Mountain, I am sure there are more, but those are the ones I am familiar with.


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## MFT (Dec 30, 2012)

I also like Grand Desert, La Belle Maison, Bonnet Creek, as they are in that are in the low to mid $5s range, and have decent occupancy year round.  

Does anyone feel though as Wyndham keeps the ball rolling, more and more inventory will be pushed into ACCESS, and eventually that will be the only product they are selling?


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 30, 2012)

MFT said:


> ...Does anyone feel though as Wyndham keeps the ball rolling, more and more inventory will be pushed into ACCESS, and eventually that will be the only product they are selling?



Yes .. but will it be PRIME time inventory? Many of the resorts within the Club Wyndham Access are the older converted fixed week properties. Wyndham is NOT selling these Fixed Week contracts; the HOAs are NOT permitted to resell these deeds; the only disposation is thru Access.

I know I can sell my Wyndham Fixed Weeks and converted Fixed weeks as I knew to buy the desirable weeks and units. And YES, some are worth more as Converted Fixed Weeks (converted by the prior owner) than the underlying deed (as those MFs work out as below as under $5 per 1K in points). 

As any marketing company, Wyndham is going to "spin doctor" their products. How many owners truly understood what ARP is? People thought that by buying a deeded points ownership at that great resort while the glaze was still working on their vacation, they got the BEST TIME every year and the best unit.  Now, with ACCESS, they believe they have the BEST TIME and best unit at a slew of Wyndham resorts. And then, Presidential Reserve was rolled out --- for the top units available ONLY to these owners with their special decor and top floor units.

But points systems do function - as the less desirable seasons cost LESS points to use/reserve a unit than PRIME TIME weeks. Many people JUST get sold on the PRIME seasons -- figuring that a PRIME week in a coastal FL 1 bdr in the points chart SHOULD only cost them under $1000 in MFs -- not realizing the RULES of the system requires PLANNING better than a YEAR in advance. And there are 6-12 GREAT VIEW units, but 30 street view unit or 40 noisey pool view units (and Wyndham now sets their new resorts with HIGHER points cost for the better view units).

Some day --- I expect Wyndham will "rebalance" the points charts at their some of their resorts. They just need to hire better math majors.


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## ronparise (Dec 30, 2012)

MFT said:


> I also like Grand Desert, La Belle Maison, Bonnet Creek, as they are in that are in the low to mid $5s range, and have decent occupancy year round.
> 
> Does anyone feel though as Wyndham keeps the ball rolling, more and more inventory will be pushed into ACCESS, and eventually that will be the only product they are selling?



There are some contracts that at a dollar are way over priced, because the mf is so high, and there are some with extremely low mf where the cost to purchase is way to high..but there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle wher mf is on the low side of average and where the cost to purchase is reasonable...You've identified 3 of them here

Regarding CWA...I agree...Just like wyndham stopped selling the old fixed and floating weeks contracts in favor of points, I think as time goes on, more and more inventory will be dropped into CWA.

At last years CWA owners meeting I learned that Wyndham has an agreement with the resorts, to take the weeks that the resorts take back in foreclosure. Where do these weeks go...I think into CWA

Also there was a post on the Wyndham owners forum (which I reposted here on TUG), that floated the rumor that Wyndham will start taking back CWA contracts to resell. its not much of a logical leap to assume that if this is true, they will do the same with all contracts sooner or later.. It would be a way for Wyndham to support and stabilize the resale market and to provide inventory for the sales staff to sell....big profits with next to no investment.

Understand that this is just a thought. I dont have much to support it, and it may not happen in my lifetime, but to answer the question you posed....Yes I feel that more and more inventory will be pushed into ACCESS, and eventually that will be the only product they are selling


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## lcml11 (Dec 30, 2012)

ronparise said:


> There are some contracts that at a dollar are way over priced, because the mf is so high, and there are some with extremely low mf where the cost to purchase is way to high..but there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle wher mf is on the low side of average and where the cost to purchase is reasonable...You've identified 3 of them here
> 
> Regarding CWA...I agree...Just like wyndham stopped selling the old fixed and floating weeks contracts in favor of points, I think as time goes on, more and more inventory will be dropped into CWA.
> 
> ...



On your main point, I think the future is here and being implemented on a roll-out basis.  If the demand for Wyndham Club Access hold, then it is a go for resorts in good shape and in a decent demand market.  

If demand for Acess is not there on a continuing basis, then I think the sale prices for Access could drop up to 50 percent to make it work.  The price drop would probably be on "sales" and not through their asking price before they drop it.  That is probably already in progress through the specials they offer on the units they take back.

As it relates to resorts in bad shape or low demand areas or are not carrying their weight on returns to Cooporate Wyndham, you may see the speed pick up on resorts to be dropped from their system.


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## ronparise (Dec 30, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> As it relates to resorts in bad shape or low demand areas or are not carrying their weight on returns to Cooporate Wyndham, you may see the speed pick up on resorts to be dropped from their system.



Ive seen this in several of your recent posts:  The idea that Wyndham may drop certain resorts from their system.

Where does this idea come from...I mean do you have anything to back this thought up...or is it just a guess.

And as long as we are guessing..what resorts do you think would be first on the list to go.

As for myself, I dont see it. Wyndham is all about more dots on the map. The olderr resorts are sold out and they get a nice management fee for managing them. There is no reason for Wyndham to drop them


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 30, 2012)

Wyndham regularly THREATENS the independant HOAs with this being DROPPED by their regional VPs. UPGRADE your units with SPECIAL ASSESSMENTs or Wyndham will drop the resort.

This is their current plan of attack with the Shawnee HOAs.

Has been used with the Sea Gardens' HOAs.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 30, 2012)

As far as units converted to points at these older HOAs - they just make them Affliates and their limited inventory would be the converted weeks where the ARP reservations for their underlying weeks NOT booked to be used by the owners that year. And that is WHY converted fixed weeks' MFs are paid a year in advance to Wyndham.


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## lcml11 (Dec 30, 2012)

ronparise said:


> Ive seen this in several of your recent posts:  The idea that Wyndham may drop certain resorts from their system.
> 
> Where does this idea come from...I mean do you have anything to back this thought up...or is it just a guess.
> 
> ...



I have seen on the internet references that the Hotel Group drops affiliated resorts from its system from time to time.  Some of the references were fairly recent and some of them were from Wyndham Worldwide via the conference calls with the Street or in federal filings.

For the Wyndham contracts I have seen, there are provisions for what happens when a Resort leaves the trust in most if not all of them, including one of the newer resorts, Towers on the Grove.

I have seen references where a few resorts left the Wyndham Club Plus family of resorts over the years.

I quick look at the internet, I could not find thoughs references.  Thanks to the above poster for providing info on some of the current possable targets.  

When I was talking over my mother's and her husband's Wyndham Time shares, I had control over the Wyndham ones.  There was one that was a El Sid timeshare that had been dropped from the program.  Wyndham reservations would not let me make a reservation through them and told me to make it through the resort and tell them it was a former Wyndham unit.  When I talked to the resort, it went no where.  As a result of not being able to use this resort anymore, it is not one that I took from the relevant estate(s).  I do not know what happened to it.  I assume the resort got it back because both estates are now closed.  I was not the executor for either estate.

This is why I am a firm believer that a Wyndham point is not a Wyndham point, in my experience, this is simply not true.  This is also why I am a firm believer in the flight to quality concept for ownership in Wyndham Club Plus/Access program.  My mother was right when we were discussing the Wyndham System.  She indicated that Wyndham was a pain but the best in the business.  To this day, I believe this to be true.  A number of resorts have been identified as resorts that would be good buys under a flight to quality concept.  I believe that all of the Myrtle Beach locations, the three identified by another poster, Smokey Mountain, and others that this tread may identify, if people would be so kind as to post them.  

As for resort that could be wrapped up a potiential departure from the Wyndham System, other than thoughs that have already been identied, I would list those units on E-Bay that consistantly get no bids or very few bids.


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## lcml11 (Dec 30, 2012)

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64652&page=2


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## ronparise (Dec 30, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> As far as units converted to points at these older HOAs - they just make them Affliates and their limited inventory would be the converted weeks where the ARP reservations for their underlying weeks NOT booked to be used by the owners that year. And that is WHY converted fixed weeks' MFs are paid a year in advance to Wyndham.



"...and their limited inventory would be the converted weeks where the ARP reservations for their underlying weeks NOT booked to be used by the owners that year....''

which is exactly their availability now.  

At the end of the day we have to realize that Wyndham doesnt have an ownership stake in sold out resorts except through cwa and the fairshare trust. Their only interest is the management contract...and the the more weeks deposited to the cwa trustthe more votes wyindham has on the various hoa's and the more likely it is that they will retain the management contracts


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## lcml11 (Dec 30, 2012)

ronparise said:


> "...and their limited inventory would be the converted weeks where the ARP reservations for their underlying weeks NOT booked to be used by the owners that year....''
> 
> which is exactly their availability now.
> 
> At the end of the day we have to realize that Wyndham doesnt have an ownership stake in sold out resorts except through cwa and the fairshare trust. Their only interest is the management contract...and the the more weeks deposited to the cwa trustthe more votes wyindham has on the various hoa's and the more likely it is that they will retain the management contracts



And if a resort leaves the system, who knows what happens in any given case.  The following are apparently two others that have disappeared, stage left:


Wyndham Sugar Bay in St. Thomas 

http://stthomasusvi.thebeach.vi/st-thomas-all-inclusive.html
http://www.sugarbayresortandspa.com/

Wyndham Owner care indicated that the following resort was no longer affiliated with Wyndham Club Plus, however, in calling the resort, Wyndham is still the management company:

Lake Havasu Dunes

http://www.golakehavasu.com/lodging/resorts/details/5/wyndham-havasu-dunes-resort/

Apparently, Wyndham Management contracts do not necessarily tract to the resort being available through the Wyndham Club Plus/Access reservations system.


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## lcml11 (Dec 30, 2012)

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86950
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Large...dham+by+Ocean+Walk+Condominium...-a0190567125

The above is another example of a problematic relationship.

If anyone know what happened at Egrets Pointe or Sands Ocean Club, maybe they could post it.


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## MFT (Jan 17, 2013)

Here's an interesting point.  That per a certain manual, the rescission period does not start until the purchaser has signed the documents and has received all documents.  This is why they discourage mailing the documents, as in this case, the period would not start until they "receive" the documents.  So if you bought a TS, and the salesperson offered to mail the documents to you, per this document, the rescind period would actually not start until you "received" the documents in the mail. 

Wonder if that is still the case, and if state law from state to state have that policy of not starting until purchase has documents in hand...


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