# *** Official 2023 Vistana Maintenance Fees Thread  ***



## jabberwocky

_This thread is for* 2023* Vistana maintenance fees. 

Please remember to also post your Maintenance Fee details to the searchable database: _*http://www.tugmf.com/SVN/SVNHome.aspx*

Thank you!
DeniseM

----------------------------------------

(Jabberwocky)

MF reporting season officially kicks off!

Westin Flex amounts posted in my online Vistana account today.

$732.40 for 67,100 options (EOY). A 3.8% increase over what I paid last year ($705.56)

I’ve reported in the 2022 MF thread - but perhaps a mod can separate that off into a new sticky thread.


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## iowaguy09

jabberwocky said:


> MF reporting season officially kicks off!
> 
> Westin Flex amounts posted in my online Vistana account today.
> 
> $732.40 for 67,100 options. A 3.8% increase over what I paid last year ($705.56)
> 
> I’ve reported in the 2022 MF thread - but perhaps a mod can separate that off into a new sticky thread.


Our Westin Flex posted today also.  The rate is $0.02183 per point and I concur a 3.8% increase over last year.


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## kozykritter

iowaguy09 said:


> Our Westin Flex posted today also.  The rate is $0.02183 per point and I concur a 3.8% increase over last year.


Nothing posted for Sheraton Flex yet in my account. For no good reason I would have thought that they would do them at the same time.


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## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Nothing posted for Sheraton Flex yet in my account. For no good reason I would have thought that they would do them at the same time.



last year it seemed like they came out within a day of each other. I imagine SFlex won’t be far behind.

Anyone with Aventuras have a value to share?


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## MICROZE

Aventuras: $0.01623 which is a 6.48% increase.


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## fizzlmasta

I see $1768 posted for 81000 Westin Flex. I remember last year there was the $155 membership fee which I don’t see in the statement. Don’t know why


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## VacationForever

fizzlmasta said:


> I see $1768 posted for 81000 Westin Flex. I remember last year there was the $155 membership fee which I don’t see in the statement. Don’t know why


MVC is changing the club fee structure.  We will have to wait for the rollout.


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## daviator

fizzlmasta said:


> I see $1768 posted for 81000 Westin Flex. I remember last year there was the $155 membership fee which I don’t see in the statement. Don’t know why


And my 81,000 Westin Flex EOY is $884, so exactly half of yours.  So there's no "EOY surcharge" as someone had asked about recently.


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## RALnGA

jabberwocky said:


> MF reporting season officially kicks off!
> 
> Westin Flex amounts posted in my online Vistana account today.
> 
> $732.40 for 67,100 options. A 3.8% increase over what I paid last year ($705.56)
> 
> I’ve reported in the 2022 MF thread - but perhaps a mod can separate that off into a new sticky thread.


Just curious when is your due by date? 

RAL


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## iowaguy09

RALnGA said:


> Just curious when is your due by date?
> 
> RAL


Our due by date is September 18, 2022.

I would also like to add, as mentioned in previous comments that the VSN membership fee was not included on this year's invoice.  Also kind of odd that the invoice is dated August 19, 2022 but was available to view yesterday August 17, 2022 and we were informed the invoice was available for viewing via email at 1:04am this morning.


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## kozykritter

It makes sense about the club fee not being included. Since it's going to be the new combined fee they can't really assess it now before Abound launches since the amount will be tied to recognition levels influenced by that program as well. Could you imagine if they collected the old fee structure now and then try to adjust it all when Abound launches (theoretically) in a couple months? Bedlam would ensure!


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## jabberwocky

Our invoice is due September 18.

There was no VSN fee, but that isn’t unusual as it was usually charged on two of our other VOIs.

It is strange that they added the ARDA fee though as it’s illegal for us to contribute (being non US residents or citizens). I wonder how many people are inadvertently going to break the law.  I didn’t include the ARDA fee in my reported MF.


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## cubigbird

MICROZE said:


> Aventuras: $0.01623 which is a 6.48% increase.


That’s not a small increase given the strengthening dollar vs peso.


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## alexinorlando

My Sheraton Flex 2023 maintenance fee bill amounts have also posted online. Have not had a chance to calculate the difference yet, but it looks like it went up a minimal amount.


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## rickandcindy23

That is early.  I don't expect SBP fees to post until November.


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## CKMason

When I went online to look at my maintenance bill for our Westin Flex account, I actually found four bills dated August 11, August 17, August 19 and August 26. The August 18 bill dropped the membership fee (and charged .2183 per point) but the August 26 bill picked up the membership fee (and charged .02022 per point). I wonder if we can pick and choose which bill to pay--or which part of which bill to pay?


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## CKMason

Sorry, the maintenance fee on the August 18 bill was.02183/point.


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## kozykritter

*Sheraton Flex*

The fee for 2023 is $0.019056/option. This is a 3.4% increase over 2022.

Maintenance Fee billing is dated August 19, 2022 and is due September 18, 2022.

No club fees billed on invoice.

Comparison
2022 - $0.01843/option, 6.5% increase over 2021
2021 - $0.01731/option


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## daviator

jabberwocky said:


> Our invoice is due September 18.
> 
> There was no VSN fee, but that isn’t unusual as it was usually charged on two of our other VOIs.
> 
> It is strange that they added the ARDA fee though as it’s illegal for us to contribute (being non US residents or citizens). I wonder how many people are inadvertently going to break the law.  I didn’t include the ARDA fee in my reported MF.


ARDA-ROC is just a nonprofit, I don't think it's illegal for anyone to contribute.  It is not a PAC or other entity to which donations are limited to U.S. citizens and residents.  

Obviously if you don't want to give them $5, just exclude it from your payment (I know you know that.)


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## RALnGA

I have Sheraton Flex,  got my maintenance bill today also. 
Seems like VNS fees will be billed in December going forward...

*You can pay your maintenance fees, plan and book your next vacation online at www.vistana.com/dashboard. VSN Fees were previously billed in connection with your maintenance fees. Moving forward they will be billed prior to December for the subsequent year. An ARDA ROC-PAC donation has been added to your total due. ARDA ROC PAC is a federal political action committee. Donations are voluntary and not tax deductible. Deduct $5 if you do not wish to contribute or are a foreign national or corporation. *

RAL


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## RALnGA

jabberwocky said:


> _This thread is for* 2023* Vistana maintenance fees.
> 
> Please remember to also post your Maintenance Fee details to the searchable database: _*http://eternaltides.com/svn/svnhome.aspx*
> 
> Thank you!
> DeniseM
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> (Jabberwocky)
> 
> MF reporting season officially kicks off!
> 
> Westin Flex amounts posted in my online Vistana account today.
> 
> $732.40 for 67,100 options. A 3.8% increase over what I paid last year ($705.56)
> 
> I’ve reported in the 2022 MF thread - but perhaps a mod can separate that off into a new sticky thread.


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> ARDA-ROC is just a nonprofit, I don't think it's illegal for anyone to contribute.  It is not a PAC or other entity to which donations are limited to U.S. citizens and residents.
> 
> Obviously if you don't want to give them $5, just exclude it from your payment (I know you know that.)


According to the FEC they are a PAC registered in 2000:

https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C00358663/

Or is this a different organization?

This is the first year I have seen it included. In the past they seem to have been smart enough to exclude those of us with non-US home addresses.

I’m sure there will be plenty of non-US owners who will just pay the default amount as you have to read the statement to realize it has been charged and can be deducted from your payment.


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## timsi

cubigbird said:


> That’s not a small increase given the strengthening dollar vs peso.


Pre-Marriott, the Lagunamar maintenance fees had been very stable for 10 years and the resort still had a very nice reserve fund, but the MF have gone a lot since Marriott took over. They seem to find a pretext every year. 

Pre-Marriott, the resort was the 13th in Cancun according to the Tripadvisor reviews, now it is the 49th. Thank you, Marriott!


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> According to the FEC they are a PAC registered in 2000:
> 
> https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C00358663/
> 
> Or is this a different organization?
> 
> This is the first year I have seen it included. In the past they seem to have been smart enough to exclude those of us with non-US home addresses.
> 
> I’m sure there will be plenty of non-US owners who will just pay the default amount as you have to read the statement to realize it has been charged and can be deducted from your payment.


ARDA_ROC is indeed a PAC. IIRC it was either Diamond or Westgate that got into trouble for collecting this fee from international owners. Here is some information on it;








						FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation - FEC.gov
					

FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation




					www.fec.gov


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## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> ARDA_ROC is indeed a PAC. IIRC it was either Diamond or Westgate that got into trouble for collecting this fee from international owners. Here is some information on it;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation - FEC.gov
> 
> 
> FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fec.gov


Interesting.  If you go to their website https://www.arda-roc.org, it does not say they are a PAC, and there is no mention of any restrictions on donations.  In fact, the donation form itself doesn't ask anything about citizenship or residency and even allows a donation to be anonymous.

Their "About us' page says "The ARDA Resort Owners’ Coalition (ARDA-ROC) is a non-profit organization formed to represent the interests of timeshare owners at the federal, state and local levels of government."

It appears that they HAVE a PAC (ARDA-ROC PAC) but legally that is a different organization than ARDA-ROC.

So non-citizens/residents could contribute to ARDA-ROC but not to ARDA-ROC PAC. And it appears the $5 that Vistana tries to collect would go to the PAC, so the citizenship/residency restrictions would indeed apply.

So I was confused by the two similar-sounding and related organizations.


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## cubigbird

I just paid my 2023 Aventuras maintenance fees, received confirmation but Vistana is still reflecting due.  Now I have to prove that I paid.  Luckily I saved the confirmation.  SMH


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## daviator

cubigbird said:


> I just paid my 2023 Aventuras maintenance fees, received confirmation but Vistana is still reflecting due.  Now I have to prove that I paid.  Luckily I saved the confirmation.  SMH


It always takes a day or two before the website shows that you have paid.  I think there is a manual step behind the scenes which needs to happen before payments are reflected online, or maybe it doesn't update your account until the payment has been completely processed.

I paid my Westin Flex on Wednesday night when the billing came out, yesterday my account still showed a balance due, but today it shows a zero balance.


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## controller1

rickandcindy23 said:


> That is early.  I don't expect SBP fees to post until November.



The individual resorts typically don't post until November with an early January due date. The Flex products tend to post in August with a mid-September due date.


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## dioxide45

controller1 said:


> The individual resorts typically don't post until November with an early January due date. The Flex products tend to post in August with a mid-September due date.


THe same is true on the Marriott side. I don't know what they are using to calculate the MFs for Flex points. I am sure Marriott is not loaning the money to the trust to cover prior year fees and then collecting it mid year. I would think they have a pretty good idea what the 2023 fees will be and base the fees off that. Of course, it is possible that they are loaning the trust money and charging a high interest rate to increase profit. They will go to many lengths to increase revenue through tactics like this...


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## hypnotiq

Hey folks, 

David Troup emailed me over the weekend to remind me to update the database for 2023. I've gone ahead and made the updates and they're live. If there is anything else you need, don't hesitate to email me. 

Thanks!
-Nico


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## dioxide45

hypnotiq said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> David Troup emailed me over the weekend to remind me to update the database for 2023. I've gone ahead and made the updates and they're live. If there is anything else you need, don't hesitate to email me.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Nico


Thanks for keeping this updated Nico.


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## hypnotiq

dioxide45 said:


> Thanks for keeping this updated Nico.



No problem! I just need a reminder at times. 
Between my 12yo daughter who plays ice hockey 6 days a week, two show dogs, and trying to juggle my job on top of all of it... I sometimes forget whether Im coming or going.


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## rickandcindy23

Posted twice.


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## rickandcindy23

Sheraton Broadway Plantation 2 bedroom lockoff:

urrent Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s)          $ 1,453.05

Tax - If Applicable          $ 0.00

Membership Fee - If Applicable          $ 0.00

Other*          $ 0.00

Interest          $ 0.00

Late Fees          $ 0.00

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**          $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges          $ 1,458.05
Less Payments***          $ 0.00


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## RLG

Sheraton Broadway Plantation (original phase)
one bedroom 515.21
two bedroom 1161.24


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## rickandcindy23

I was going to pay my fees for 2024 in advance but realized that once again I will have to pay the ARDA fees because they will take the full amount of my 2024 MF's and apply them to 2023 payments, leaving me $5.00 due in 2024 for "maintenance fees.."

Paying ahead to book my weeks at more than a year out is a frustrating experience because I am *forced to pay ARDA fees!*


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## YYJMSP

Not an official MF bill, but got the proposed budgets for SVR Cascades and Spas in the mail today -- those has basically been the adopted values every year.  Looks like Cascades is going up 12.3% and Spas is going up 8.3% as compared to last year...


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## VacationForever

YYJMSP said:


> Not an official MF bill, but got the proposed budgets for SVR Cascades and Spas in the mail today -- those has basically been the adopted values every year.  Looks like Cascades is going up 12.3% and Spas is going up 8.3% as compared to last year...


...Lakes is up 16%...


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## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> Not an official MF bill, but got the proposed budgets for SVR Cascades and Spas in the mail today -- those has basically been the adopted values every year.  Looks like Cascades is going up 12.3% and Spas is going up 8.3% as compared to last year...





VacationForever said:


> ...Lakes is up 16%...


Proposed budgets in Florida aren't very useful as they include reserves as if they were fully funded. Though we have never been asked to vote to waive fully funding of reserves for SVV in all our years of ownership.


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## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Proposed budgets in Florida aren't very useful as they include reserves as if they were fully funded. Though we have never been asked to vote to waive fully funding of reserves for SVV in all our years of ownership.


Not the SVR statement, this is with the fully funding of reserves waived.  The increase is in operating costs.


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## TravelTime

This is hard to go through to find any maintenance fees because there is so much chit chat. Can someone set up a thread like Suejohn did. She has a very specific list of what to include and says no chit chat.


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## kozykritter

TravelTime said:


> This is hard to go through to find any maintenance fees because there is so much chit chat. Can someone set up a thread like Suejohn did. She has a very specific list of what to include and says no chit chat.


Since this post is a stickies, write to the moderator DeniseM with your request.


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## EnglishmanAbroad

TravelTime said:


> This is hard to go through to find any maintenance fees because there is so much chit chat. Can someone set up a thread like Suejohn did. She has a very specific list of what to include and says no chit chat.


The opening post on the thread has a link to the searchable database where all the fees are stored.


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## VacationForever

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> The opening post on the thread has a link to the searchable database where all the fees are stored.


Only when owners post it to the database.


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## controller1

*Westin Nanea* maintenance fee billings are available.

The per point assessment is $0.0183807 which represents a 7.7% increase over last year's $0.0170673 per point.

Invoice is dated Nov 1, 2022 with a due date of Jan 4, 2023.


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## controller1

I just added my Westin Nanea to the database and noticed it was only the second entry for 2023. Westin Flex is the other.

I see where there have been posts for Westin Aventuras, Sheraton Flex, and a couple of phases at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. It would be great if those individuals who posted those could add them to the database. This thread tends to get unwieldy and the database is a great resource where everything is organized.

Just my thoughts....


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## daviator

controller1 said:


> I just added my Westin Nanea to the database and noticed it was only the second entry for 2023. Westin Flex is the other.
> 
> I see where there have been posts for Westin Aventuras, Sheraton Flex, and a couple of phases at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. It would be great if those individuals who posted those could add them to the database. This thread tends to get unwieldy and the database is a great resource where everything is organized.
> 
> Just my thoughts....


I think I added my Westin Flex earlier this year.

I don't think the mailings have gone out for many/any of the deeded weeks yet.  At least for the ones I own, those are usually due at the beginning of January and the mailings go out in early to mid November, at least in the past.  I haven't received any of mine yet.  

Nanea was not sold as deeded weeks, so the Mx fees billing is probably on a different schedule from deeded weeks.


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## daviator

Tried to add the 2023 amounts for WDW but the database link is not working for me.  Page doesn't load / isn't found.

But the 2BR lockoff at WDW will be $2157.70.


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## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Tried to add the 2023 amounts for WDW but the database link is not working for me.  Page doesn't load / isn't found.
> 
> But the 2BR lockoff at WDW will be $2157.70.


@hypnotiq


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## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> @hypnotiq


It's working now.  Not sure why I couldn't access it earlier.


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## emoneybug

Sheraton Broadway Plantation - 1 Bed EVEN - Unit 444 Plantation Phase 470sq ft
2023 OPERATING ASSESSMENT $247.74
2023 REPLACEMENT RESERVES $81.87
Total $329.61

(my 1st year of ownership, but I'm guessing $306.87 in 2022...so $22.74 increase or 7.41%)


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## DavidnRobin

2023 WPORV EOY: $1695.95
4.82% increase


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

2023 WKORV 2Bd LO Deluxe: $3785.45

BUT!!!
Adds a huge fee $307.29 Membership fee — for DC points?
and $10 for KOR foundation

YIKES!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## echino

The Westin Kā‘anapali Ocean Resort Villas North 2 bedroom

2023 MASTER ASSOCIATION ASSESSMENT $287.62
2023 APARTMENT OWNERS ASSESSMENT $680.82
2023 VACATION OWNERSHIP ASSESSMENT $2,076.45
*2023 Total $3,044.89* (+$241.73, *+8.62%*)

To compare to 2022:
2022 MASTER ASSOCIATION ASSESSMENT $265.13
2022 APARTMENT OWNERS ASSESSMENT $611.80
2022 VACATION OWNERSHIP ASSESSMENT $1,926.23
2022 Total $2,803.16

No membership fee.


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## rickandcindy23

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Villas 2 bedroom lockoff:

Maintenance Fee(s)		  $ 2,746.99

Tax - If Applicable		  $ 0.00

Membership Fee - If Applicable		  $ 0.00

Other*		  $ 0.00

Interest		  $ 0.00

Late Fees		  $ 0.00

KOR Foundation and Trust**		  $ 20.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges		  $ 2,766.99
Less Payments***		  $ 0.00

Total Due		  $ 2,766.99


 KOR Foundation and Trust
As a Maui property Owner, you may have an interest in supporting civic and charitable programs that benefit the community, including timeshare Owners. The One Ohana Foundation is an affiliated nonprofit Hawaii Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) corporation that promotes good community policies and programs. The One Ohana Charitable Trust is an affiliated Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) affiliated trust that promotes charitable programs and projects for the betterment of Maui citizens. A $20 donation is voluntary and will be distributed 34% to the Foundation (nondeductible) and 66% to the Trust (deductible, please contact your independent tax advisor). Please note, One Ohana Foundation and One Ohana Charitable Trust have changed their names to Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation and Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Charitable Trust. If Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation & Trust appears on your statement and you do not wish to contribute, please reduce your overall annual payment by $20. Donors are not disclosed on public reports.
*** Payments include both owner and developer payments made.


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## daviator

rickandcindy23 said:


> KOR Foundation and Trust
> As a Maui property Owner, you may have an interest in supporting civic and charitable programs that benefit the community, including timeshare Owners. The One Ohana Foundation is an affiliated nonprofit Hawaii Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) corporation that promotes good community policies and programs. The One Ohana Charitable Trust is an affiliated Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) affiliated trust that promotes charitable programs and projects for the betterment of Maui citizens. A $20 donation is voluntary and will be distributed 34% to the Foundation (nondeductible) and 66% to the Trust (deductible, please contact your independent tax advisor). Please note, One Ohana Foundation and One Ohana Charitable Trust have changed their names to Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation and Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Charitable Trust. If Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation & Trust appears on your statement and you do not wish to contribute, please reduce your overall annual payment by $20. Donors are not disclosed on public reports.
> *** Payments include both owner and developer payments made.



I am under the impression that the KOR Foundation and KOR Trust actually are a way of giving back to the local community (and giving our resorts some good PR as a good neighbor) and that the annual donation benefits the local Maui community.  So I've typically viewed this positively and paid the $20, unlike the other donation to the timeshare industry group which Vistana always adds and which I don't pay.

Is my understanding correct?


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## jdm6208

Received my e-mail that MF were posted to my account, for some reason, cannot view or download the actual statement, but for our Premium 1BD EOY at WKORV (81,000 SO), the MF went from $1087.66 in 2022 to $1178.71 - around 8.3% increase, however the Membership fee went from $161.46 to $239.58 - a whopping 48% increase!  I may be waiting to pay this until I see what we goe for this amount - as a deeded week owner, it is highly unlikely I'll be moving my SO into the Abound program.

Once I can access the actual statement, I'll enter the numbers into the database.


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## Eagle7304

Pardon if I'm ignorant, but what is Select Dues for WKOV??

023 MASTER ASSOCIATION ASSESSMENT $278.12
2023 APARTMENT OWNERS ASSESSMENT $578.17
2023 VACATION OWNERSHIP ASSESSMENT $1,890.70
2023 SELECT DUES $239.58
2023 KOR FOUNDATION & TRUST $20.00


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## daviator

Eagle7304 said:


> Pardon if I'm ignorant, but what is Select Dues for WKOV??
> 
> 023 MASTER ASSOCIATION ASSESSMENT $278.12
> 2023 APARTMENT OWNERS ASSESSMENT $578.17
> 2023 VACATION OWNERSHIP ASSESSMENT $1,890.70
> 2023 SELECT DUES $239.58
> 2023 KOR FOUNDATION & TRUST $20.00


I think that "select" refers to your owner benefit level, and the dues is your new annual VSN/Abound membership fee.  The VSN fee was about $160 but the new combined fee is higher (and the higher your owner benefit level, the higher the annual fee.)

If you own multiple VOIs, you should only be charged one membership fee though.


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## daviator

jdm6208 said:


> Received my e-mail that MF were posted to my account, for some reason, cannot view or download the actual statement, but for our Premium 1BD EOY at WKORV (81,000 SO), the MF went from $1087.66 in 2022 to $1178.71 - around 8.3% increase, however the Membership fee went from $161.46 to $239.58 - a whopping 48% increase!  I may be waiting to pay this until I see what we goe for this amount - as a deeded week owner, it is highly unlikely I'll be moving my SO into the Abound program.
> 
> Once I can access the actual statement, I'll enter the numbers into the database.


The new, higher Abound annual membership dues apply whether or not you elect to use Abound.  However, a bunch of ancillary Visana fees (housekeeping, banking, etc.) have been eliminated.  So for some people it may be a wash, for many of us who rarely or never incurred those additional fees, the new membership fee results in paying more money than we previously paid.


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## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> The new, higher Abound annual membership dues apply whether or not you elect to use Abound. However, a bunch of ancillary Visana fees (housekeeping, banking, etc.) have been eliminated. So for some people it may be a wash, for many of us who rarely or never incurred those additional fees, the new membership fee results in paying more money than we previously paid.



My Membership fee is listed as $307 (!!!) that is quite an increase. I am forced to pay this when I don’t plan to use Abound?
And mine is higher because I have resale Mandatory VOIs that brings me to a high MVC level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteelerGal

I checked the website and my WKV EOY has it's normal fee of $150; however I haven't received the official bill.


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## DavidnRobin

SteelerGal said:


> I checked the website and my WKV EOY has it's normal fee of $150; however I haven't received the official bill.



Is this your only VOI?

WKV 2023 MFs have not been issued yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> My Membership fee is listed as $307 (!!!) that is quite an increase. I am forced to pay this when I don’t plan to use Abound?
> And mine is higher because I have resale Mandatory VOIs that brings me to a high MVC level?



it says you can opt out of Abound and stick with VSN fees, which would be $170.50 (single-week owners) or $236.50 (multi-week owners), but you would get charged for any additional transaction fees (i.e. banking, additional housekeeping, cancellation if applicable, etc).  if you opt out, and change your mind later and rejoin Abound, you will be charged a $595 enrollment fee


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## rickandcindy23

daviator said:


> I am under the impression that the KOR Foundation and KOR Trust actually are a way of giving back to the local community (and giving our resorts some good PR as a good neighbor) and that the annual donation benefits the local Maui community.  So I've typically viewed this positively and paid the $20, unlike the other donation to the timeshare industry group which Vistana always adds and which I don't pay.
> 
> Is my understanding correct?


Probably correct.  I am not complaining about the fee, just wanted to add the explanation of it.


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## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> it says you can opt out of Abound and stick with VSN fees, which would be $170.50 (single-week owners) or $236.50 (multi-week owners), but you would get charged for any additional transaction fees (i.e. banking, additional housekeeping, cancellation if applicable, etc).  if you opt out, and change your mind later and rejoin Abound, you will be charged a $595 enrollment fee


I would also assume any elite ownership level gained from Abound would also be lose if you opt out.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I would also assume any elite ownership level gained from Abound would also be lose if you opt out.


Maybe not because the Marriott recognition levels are being applied to the VSN  independent of Abound participation. They are just using the Abound value for every ownership for determining your level within the VSN, even if you opt out of Abound. I'm thinking they will still count Marriott ownership if you are a dual owner and opt out of Abound since I don't remember anything in the FAQ saying that those things are tied together but who knows how it'll sort out in the end. We certainly don't have all the facts!


----------



## SteelerGal

DavidnRobin said:


> Is this your only VOI?
> 
> WKV 2023 MFs have not been issued yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes.  I did read on the other thread billing, etc.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Eagle7304 said:


> Pardon if I'm ignorant, but what is Select Dues for WKOV??
> 
> 023 MASTER ASSOCIATION ASSESSMENT $278.12
> 2023 APARTMENT OWNERS ASSESSMENT $578.17
> 2023 VACATION OWNERSHIP ASSESSMENT $1,890.70
> 2023 SELECT DUES $239.58
> 2023 KOR FOUNDATION & TRUST $20.00


Why does my statement not look like your statement?  Mine has no breakdown.  

I think Vistana needs to breakdown the statements a little more than mine was.  

I also need a statement for my second week, which is the identical thing, just a different week/ unit #.  I can only see one of my WKOV statements.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

WLR 1BR Gold season $1,120.67 (2023) up from $1,039.11 (2022) so an increase of $81.56 or 7.8%.


----------



## timsi

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> WLR 1BR Gold season $1,120.67 (2023) up from $1,039.11 (2022) so an increase of $81.56 or 7.8%.


27% in 4 years under Marriott management!


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

timsi said:


> 27% in 4 years under Marriott management!


By my calculation a gallon of milk has gone up 50% in under 2 years but I don't think that's Marriott's doing!


----------



## DavidnRobin

2023 WKV 1Bd Premium (Large 81K, SOs): $1,153.32 (8.8% increase !!) over 2022 of $1059.57

Includes property tax ($39) included in MFs. This shouldn’t impact percent increase differences between villa sizes/seasons.

iirc, this is possibly the largest %increase ever for WKV




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## timsi

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> By my calculation a gallon of milk has gone up 50% in under 2 years but I don't think that's Marriott's doing!


Of course the price of milk is not Marriott's doing or it would be up 100%!  

The reality is that as long as the defaults are not through the roof, Marriott seems to be happy to take 10% of any additional dollar spent. The MF at Lagunamar went up significantly even before Covid right after Marriott took over.


----------



## daviator

timsi said:


> 27% in 4 years under Marriott management!


I usually figure on costs rising about 5% annually in my business, and this year we've seen big inflation that we haven't seen in a a long time.  I'd expect almost 22% increases over 4 years even without extraordinary inflation (that's 5% annually compounded over four years) so a total of 27% when you include this year's extraordinary inflation seems about right, maybe even a little better than I'd expect.  MVC is particularly impacted by wage costs, and those have gone up very significantly – much more than the rate of inflation – for the sorts of jobs which form the bulk of MVC's employment at our resorts.

Marriott is not always the bogeyman.


----------



## Ianneyan

2023 WKV 2BR $2113.79, including $230 VSN Membership Fee and $5 ARDA ; $1878.79 without those fees.

It was $1886.06 all in last year ($227.73 more), so 12% increase overall or 8.5% increase excluding fees. Yikes.


----------



## daviator

rickandcindy23 said:


> Why does my statement not look like your statement?  Mine has no breakdown.
> 
> I think Vistana needs to breakdown the statements a little more than mine was.
> 
> I also need a statement for my second week, which is the identical thing, just a different week/ unit #.  I can only see one of my WKOV statements.


You need to download the PDF of your actual statement to see the detail.  If you just look at the online statement it lumps everything together under Maintenance Fees.

On the website, Go to Maintenance Fee Details & Statements --> Statements
and there you should be able to download the full statement for every year including the current one.

If you've downloaded the paper statement and it doesn't show you the breakdown, then I don't know why your statement is different.  By the way, if you scroll down on the statement, you can see the annual budget and how the MFs were calculated.


----------



## timsi

daviator said:


> I usually figure on costs rising about 5% annually in my business, and this year we've seen big inflation that we haven't seen in a a long time.  I'd expect almost 22% increases over 4 years even without extraordinary inflation (that's 5% annually compounded over four years) so a total of 27% when you include this year's extraordinary inflation seems about right, maybe even a little better than I'd expect.  MVC is particularly impacted by wage costs, and those have gone up very significantly – much more than the rate of inflation – for the sorts of jobs which form the bulk of MVC's employment at our resorts.
> 
> Marriott is not always the bogeyman.


Most of 2020 pesso was 20% lower and the MF still went up significantly that year. I do not know about your business, but you would not expect to pay as much in Mexico as in the US, don't you think? The Lagunamar MF are somehow more expensive now than many US locations. That's an accomplishment! The MF increases had been very modest before Marriott took over and the resort was always very well maintained and had a healthy reserve fund. I actually do not mind the 2023 increase but the previous 3 were totally not in line with other costs increases in the region.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DavidnRobin said:


> 2023 WKORV 2Bd LO Deluxe: $3785.45
> 
> BUT!!!
> Adds a huge fee $307.29 Membership fee — for DC points?
> and $10 for KOR foundation
> 
> YIKES!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



btw - this is an 8.8% increase for WKORV over 2022 with no fees.
Odd… same increase as WKV

2021: $3478.95
2022: $3785.45


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## daviator

timsi said:


> Most of 2020 pesso was 20% lower and the MF still went up significantly that year. I do not know about your business, but you would not expect to pay as much in Mexico as in the US, don't you think? The Lagunamar MF are somehow more expensive now than many US locations. That's an accomplishment! The MF increases had been very modest before Marriott took over and the resort was always very well maintained and had a healthy reserve fund. I actually do not mind the 2023 increase but the previous 3 were totally not in line with other costs increases in the region.


I don't own at Lagunamar, but I agree, costs in Mexico should be lower.  In fact, years ago, SPG tried several times to sell me Lagunamar (even wanted me to trade in my Maui for Lagunamar) and one of their arguments was how much lower the MFs were, for the same SO value.  I guess they can't make that argument any more... but it worked on a lot of people, I think that property largely sold out.  (I agree that it's always been well-maintained.) 

Have you ever attended the annual meeting or read the minutes?  I'm sure the MFs get discussed and it would be interesting to hear the explanation for the increases in the years where they went up a lot.  Some of their costs are going to be more tied to U.S. costs (for example, I imagine all the furnishings, appliances, room supplies like soap, shampoo, detergent, etc... all that comes from the U.S.)  But their labor costs should be MUCH lower and that should have a large impact.  Just off the top of my head, I'd expect MF's at Lagunamar to be at least 25-35% less than a comparable unit in California.  The difference used to be larger than that.  (I seem to recall that Lagunamar MFs were about half what they were at WKORV, back in 2010 or so.)


----------



## dioxide45

This thread is a mess if you really want to see what the fees are. Some people including the Club Fee, some not. The fee isn't the same for everyone. The same problem exists in the database. Then there is a whole mess of general discussion that at least they break apart over in the Marriott forum.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> This thread is a mess if you really want to see what the fees are. Some people including the Club Fee, some not. The fee isn't the same for everyone. The same problem exists in the database.


I noticed that.  The database has a separate field for the Club Fee and I hope people are separating it out (I have, for the ones I entered.)  In reality the club fee is kind of irrelevant now since different people pay different club fees depending on their OBL, and the club fee is sort of randomly attached to one unit and not others for those who own multiple units.  This probably isn't a democracy, but I'd vote to have people just exclude the Club Fee from their MF reports, I don't see how their inclusion does anything but confuse.


----------



## Nick66

Sheraton Desert Oasis
2023: $1343.88 increase of 6.82%
Added to database.


----------



## byeloe

SteelerGal said:


> I checked the website and my WKV EOY has it's normal fee of $150; however I haven't received the official bill.


I have 2 WKV weeks, the Premium is showing $170.50 club fee in my online account and the standard doesn't have any fee listed.   Both units purchased before the Abound eligible cutoff date


----------



## grgs

I just noticed that the MF bill of one of my Kierland units lists the Chairman's Club dues.  So I guess I've been officially notified of our OBL.  I wonder if Abound will actually be rolled out before the end of the year.  If not, it seems like they should have held off on the higher dues.


----------



## daviator

grgs said:


> I just noticed that the MF bill of one of my Kierland units lists the Chairman's Club dues.  So I guess I've been officially notified of our OBL.  I wonder if Abound will actually be rolled out before then end of the year.  If not, it seems like should have held off on the higher dues.
> 
> View attachment 68900


I believe the dues you are billed for now are actually for 2023, so that's undoubtedly the justification for billing the new rate now.  Plus you are immediately repeating the benefits of Chairman's Club even if you are not able to use Abound.  

Although I think I will probably pay more with the new dues, because I rarely had reason to accrue the miscellaneous fees like housekeeping and banking, I don't really have a problem with the new dues and its all-inclusive coverage of all fees.  It simplifies things which isn't such a bad thing.


----------



## rickandcindy23

daviator said:


> I believe the dues you are billed for now are actually for 2023, so that's undoubtedly the justification for billing the new rate now.  Plus you are immediately repeating the benefits of Chairman's Club even if you are not able to use Abound.
> 
> Although I think I will probably pay more with the new dues, because I rarely had reason to accrue the miscellaneous fees like housekeeping and banking, I don't really have a problem with the new dues and its all-inclusive coverage of all fees.  It simplifies things which isn't such a bad thing.


Can you explain "with the new dues and its all-inclusive coverage of all fees," is about?


----------



## daviator

rickandcindy23 said:


> Can you explain "with the new dues and its all-inclusive coverage of all fees," is about?


Under the new dues scheme, everyone pays higher dues than they did before, but all of the extraneous fees (that used to be assessed) go away.

So no more extra housekeeping fees when you have more reservations in a year than the number of VOIs you own.
No more banking fees.
No more fees to convert to Bonvoy points.
No more name change/guest fees.
There may be a couple of other fees that go away that I'm not remembering.

I know you own a bunch of VOIs and you rent a lot of them, so I presume you've been hit with some of those fees in the past, so maybe the new scheme will save you money.  It will certainly make things more predictable, as basically all of the extra fees will go away.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

daviator said:


> Under the new dues scheme, everyone pays higher dues than they did before, but all of the extraneous fees (that used to be assessed) go away.
> 
> So no more extra housekeeping fees when you have more reservations in a year than the number of VOIs you own.
> No more banking fees.
> No more fees to convert to Bonvoy points.
> No more name change/guest fees.
> There may be a couple of other fees that go away that I'm not remembering.
> 
> I know you own a bunch of VOIs and you rent a lot of them, so I presume you've been hit with some of those fees in the past, so maybe the new scheme will save you money.  It will certainly make things more predictable, as basically all of the extra fees will go away.


+No more cancellation fees within 60 and 7 days I believe.


----------



## timsi

daviator said:


> Under the new dues scheme, everyone pays higher dues than they did before, but all of the extraneous fees (that used to be assessed) go away.
> 
> So no more extra housekeeping fees when you have more reservations in a year than the number of VOIs you own.
> No more banking fees.
> No more fees to convert to Bonvoy points.
> No more name change/guest fees.
> There may be a couple of other fees that go away that I'm not remembering.
> 
> I know you own a bunch of VOIs and you rent a lot of them, so I presume you've been hit with some of those fees in the past, so maybe the new scheme will save you money.  It will certainly make things more predictable, as basically all of the extra fees will go away.


They eliminated the banking fee but they reduced banking from 2 years to 1 so many owners will lose a multiple of that fee when their points expire.
The housekeeping fee will now be covered by the resorts through their budgets, so the week owners and those reserving multiple of 7 nights will have higher fees and pay for those booking shorter stays. This is not a free lunch and Marriott is not doing us a favor.
No more fees to convert to Bonvoy? The conversion was not great before, now with the new dynamic pricing it makes even less sense.
Most people do not pay for change/guest fees since it is free for a home resort reservation. If they offer free name change/guest, this will only encourage the less than legal VSN rentals.


----------



## daviator

timsi said:


> They eliminated the banking fee but they reduced banking from 2 years to 1 so many owners will lose a multiple of that fee when their points expire.
> The housekeeping fee will now be covered by the resorts through their budgets, so the week owners and those reserving multiple of 7 nights will have higher fees and pay for those booking shorter stays. This is not a free lunch and Marriott is not doing us a favor.


I don't know if the resorts got paid the "extra housekeeping" fee by Vistana in the past, actually.  It's quite possible that owners have always borne all of the housekeeping costs and that Vistana just kept the "extra housekeeping" fees collected.  I certainly don't remember a line item for housekeeping credit or reimbursement.


----------



## timsi

daviator said:


> I don't know if the resorts got paid the "extra housekeeping" fee by Vistana in the past, actually.  It's quite possible that owners have always borne all of the housekeeping costs and that Vistana just kept the "extra housekeeping" fees collected.  I certainly don't remember a line item for housekeeping credit or reimbursement.


If the resorts collected the money but the fee was directed somewhere else, we want our money ASAP. Owners have paid 40 dollars for the additional cleanings and the resorts have incurred additional costs (time and cleaning supplies paid from our budgets). You can't have one entity getting the money and another one footing the bill.


----------



## daviator

timsi said:


> If the resorts collected the money but the fee was directed somewhere else, we want our money ASAP. Owners have paid 40 dollars for the additional cleanings and the resorts have incurred additional costs (time and cleaning supplies paid from our budgets). You can't have one entity getting the money and another one footing the bill.


You can, actually.  Vistana/MVC can and did apply fees for various things.  Whether or not they had to pass any of those on to the various Owner's Associations is a contractual matter between those associations and Vistana/MVC.  While it seems logical that fees assessed for housekeeping should be passed on the the OA, this isn't a question of logic, it's a contractual question that I certainly don't know the answer to.  But if the contract with Vistana didn't require the payment of additional housekeeping fees, it's likely that those fees were not passed on.

On the other hand, it's also possible that those contracts DO require the payment of additional fees for housekeeping in excess of once per week or once per VOI.  In that case, MVC may be on the hook to continue to pay those fees regardless whether they are separately collecting them from owners.  In other words, they could have calculated that the higher Club Dues allow them to cover additional housekeeping expenses and simplify the accounting around extra charges.

The second possibility is just as likely as the first one, in my view.


----------



## Eric B

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> By my calculation a gallon of milk has gone up 50% in under 2 years but I don't think that's Marriott's doing!



That's precisely what they want you to think....


----------



## grgs

daviator said:


> Under the new dues scheme, everyone pays higher dues than they did before, but all of the extraneous fees (that used to be assessed) go away.
> 
> So no more extra housekeeping fees when you have more reservations in a year than the number of VOIs you own.
> No more banking fees.
> No more fees to convert to Bonvoy points.
> No more name change/guest fees.
> There may be a couple of other fees that go away that I'm not remembering.
> 
> I know you own a bunch of VOIs and you rent a lot of them, so I presume you've been hit with some of those fees in the past, so maybe the new scheme will save you money.  It will certainly make things more predictable, as basically all of the extra fees will go away.



I just book a stay for Jan. 2023 and had to check the box acknowledging the $38 housekeeping fee, so we'll see if I end up getting charged or not.

Since we're 5 star, we didn't pay banking fees or name change fees.  But I understand that it might work well for others.  But if Abound doesn't launch by the end of the year, it seems to be a bit premature to change the fee structure at this point.  I get that they didn't want to try to change things mid-year, though.


----------



## YYJMSP

SVR Cascades

2BD L/O

2023 Operating Assessment $1056.10
2023 Replacement Reserves $336.60
2023 Estimated Real Estate Tax $144.85

Total $1537.55 (vs 2022's $1365.26) -- 12.6% increase


----------



## YYJMSP

SVR Spas

2BD

2023 Operating Assessment $759.18
2023 Replacement Reserves $189.11
2023 Estimated Real Estate Tax $91.52

Total $1039.81 (vs 2022's $977.57) -- 6.4% increase


----------



## VacationForever

*SVR 2BR L/O (High Season)
2023 Operating Assessment  $966.96
2023 Replacement Reserves  $273.54
2023 Estimated Real Estate Tax  $128.28
2023 Total: $1,368.78*

2022 Operating Assessment  $865.19
2022 Replacement Reserves  $259.28
2022 Estimated Real Estate Tax  $122.17
2022 Total: $1,246.64

*Increase of $122.14 or 9.8%*


----------



## Denise L

DavidnRobin said:


> My Membership fee is listed as $307 (!!!) that is quite an increase. I am forced to pay this when I don’t plan to use Abound?
> And mine is higher because I have resale Mandatory VOIs that brings me to a high MVC level?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm finally getting around to opening up my bills and am also shocked at the $307 membership fee.  Plus, they added it to my most expensive WKORV OFD week, making that bill a whopping $4,100.000+.   I preferred it scattered among two of my bills!  It seemed less painful.  My fee level is also listed as "Chairman," which I could care less about because I will never use Abound, and have never needed to bank, change names, or pay cancellation fees.  If someone has just two intervals, is the fee $239.58?  It doesn't seem necessary for me to pay $307/year to book my own home resort reservations.  If I opt out, will Marriott decide some year soon to start charging me for transactions that used to be included in SVN?


----------



## dsmrp

SVR Spa, 2bdrm
Maintenance Fee(s)          $ 948.29
Tax - If Applicable               $ 78.02
TOTAL                              $1,026.31


SVR Lakes, 2bdrm
Maintenance Fee(s)         $1,048.42
Tax - If Applicable              $123.15
TOTAL                              $1,171.57


----------



## zjhasan1976

Vistana Villages - Bella 81k EOY


----------



## DanCali

Denise L said:


> I'm finally getting around to opening up my bills and am also shocked at the $307 membership fee.  Plus, they added it to my most expensive WKORV OFD week, making that bill a whopping $4,100.000+.   I preferred it scattered among two of my bills!  It seemed less painful.  My fee level is also listed as "Chairman," which I could care less about because I will never use Abound, and have never needed to bank, change names, or pay cancellation fees.  If someone has just two intervals, is the fee $239.58?  It doesn't seem necessary for me to pay $307/year to book my own home resort reservations.  If I opt out, will Marriott decide some year soon to start charging me for transactions that used to be included in SVN?



Per the "fine print" on the back of the MF bill, if you opt out you will be at the "Owner" benefit level in VSN (even if you were 5-Star before, because that's all gone). So, for example, banking Staroptions will have early deadlines, carry a fee each time you do it, and they will be good for only 1 year (starting in 2025). You would also lose what is effectively Bonvoy Titanium for life status, and lose the ability to waitlist for VSN reservations Make sure you are with losing all that because you'll be going from the higher elite level to being much more restricted in many ways and it may be hard to go back without paying a fee.


----------



## jeffm211

Has anyone tried to pay MF from the Vistana website since Abound has launched?  I'm getting an error message when trying to pull up statements from the Association link on the website.  One would think making it easy to pay is one of the things Marriott would want working for sure!!


----------



## dioxide45

zjhasan1976 said:


> Vistana Villages - Bella 81k EOY
> 
> View attachment 69397


I can't login to confirm our annual SVV Bella Prime season, but looking at this and doubling it, it looks like about a 7.3% increase.


----------



## dioxide45

Sheraton Vistana Villages dedicated 2BR Prime Bella 81K StarOptions;

2023 OPERATING ASSESSMENT $1,040.12
2023 REPLACEMENT RESERVES $273.45
2023 ESTIMATED REAL ESTATE TAX $123.00
*2023 TOTAL $1436.57

2022 TOTAL $1338.75 <<-- 7.3% Increase*


----------



## dioxide45

Sheraton Vistana Villages dedicated 1BR Prime Key West 44K StarOptions - Every Other Year

2023 OPERATING ASSESSMENT $246.28
2023 REPLACEMENT RESERVES $52.06
2023 ESTIMATED REAL ESTATE TAX $40.27
*2023 TOTAL $338.61

2022 TOTAL $313.94 <<-- 7.9% Increase*


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Sheraton Vistana Villages dedicated 2BR Prime Key West 44K StarOptions - Every Other Year
> 
> 2023 OPERATING ASSESSMENT $246.28
> 2023 REPLACEMENT RESERVES $52.06
> 2023 ESTIMATED REAL ESTATE TAX $40.27
> *2023 TOTAL $338.61
> 
> 2022 TOTAL $313.94 <<-- 7.9% Increase*


MF looks like a 1BR?


----------



## Quiet Pine

jeffm211 said:


> Has anyone tried to pay MF from the Vistana website since Abound has launched?  I'm getting an error message when trying to pull up statements from the Association link on the website.  One would think making it easy to pay is one of the things Marriott would want working for sure!!


So frustrating! Error message yesterday, again this morning. Phoned them & hung up after 20 minutes on hold. MF are due Jan. 5, but I'd like to get it out of the way sooner.


----------



## jeffm211

Quiet Pine said:


> So frustrating! Error message yesterday, again this morning. Phoned them & hung up after 20 minutes on hold. MF are due Jan. 5, but I'd like to get it out of the way sooner.


Vistana site down again.  Was able to get in a short time ago, switched over the MVC site to check on some Abound availability and came back to re-login to Vistana and site is down.  Putting MF on Bonvoy Amex card...but they are not making it easy!


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> MF looks like a 1BR?


Sorry, Yes it is. I updated my post.


----------



## jeffm211

2023 MAINTENANCE FEES


WLR - 2BR LO - Gold +  $1,783.74 - 3400 CPs - $.52/CPWDW - 2BR LO - Platinum - $2,300.48 - 3725 CPs - $.62/CPWKV - 2BR LO - Platinum - $1,878.79 - 4050 CPs - $.46/CPWESTIN RIVERFRONT - 2BR LO EOY - Middle season (95,700 SO) - $1,178.41 - not eligible for Abound at this time.
Corrected:  12/6/22


----------



## cubigbird

Westin Desert Willow 2 Bedroom Lockoff Platinum Plus season 

2022 Fees: $1993.79
2023 Fees: $2300.48

YOY increase $306.69 or 15%


----------



## cubigbird

Westin St John Sunsey Bay Diamond Season Home Options 176,700 EOY. 

2022 Fees: $1998.19
2023 Fees: $2564.62

These are the fees for just the points, no club dues or anything else.  

YOY Increase $566.53 or 28%.  TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT INCREASE!!!  

Since that’s EOY that puts a week well over $5000 for a week.  A substantial jump!!


----------



## rubbernyc

Deleted. please ignore.


----------



## rickandcindy23

cubigbird said:


> Westin Desert Willow 2 Bedroom Lockoff Platinum Plus season
> 
> 2022 Fees: $1993.79
> 2023 Fees: $2300.48
> 
> YOY increase $306.69 or 15%


Lovely.  Just bought an EOY that is not in our account yet.  Does this include property taxes?  I feel like the Palm Desert resort owners are getting ripped off.  Has AC gone up that much in the desert?


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Lovely.  Just bought an EOY that is not in our account yet.  Does this include property taxes?  I feel like the Palm Desert resort owners are getting ripped off.  Has AC gone up that much in the desert?


Isn't everything in CA more expensive? I am not really sure what the reason is, but many of the Marriott Palm Desert resorts have also seen steep increases.


----------



## cubigbird

rickandcindy23 said:


> Lovely.  Just bought an EOY that is not in our account yet.  Does this include property taxes?  I feel like the Palm Desert resort owners are getting ripped off.  Has AC gone up that much in the desert?


Yes, that includes all the necessary items, excludes club fees, ARDA-ROC etc.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't everything in CA more expensive? I am not really sure what the reason is, but many of the Marriott Palm Desert resorts have also seen steep increases.


YES!  Shadow Ridge is so high.  A lot of people will be dumping their Palm Desert weeks, but I for one will not be in the market for more of them.  I am done with that.  They do trade extremely well, but no better than Willow Ridge.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't everything in CA more expensive? I am not really sure what the reason is, but many of the Marriott Palm Desert resorts have also seen steep increases.


I went to the annual meeting for WDW this year.  The increases are almost 100% due to staff costs, and general inflation.  Starting wage for housekeepers is close to $20/hour now IIRC, that's apparently what it takes to find and retain people.  Staffing has been the biggest difficulty coming out of the pandemic.


----------



## Quiet Pine

Vistana website was up this morning and I was able to go to the Dashboard and pay my maintenance fee. Finally no Error message!
Sheraton Desert Oasis MF for 2BR Lockoff Villa $691.94


----------



## dioxide45

Quiet Pine said:


> Vistana website was up this morning and I was able to go to the Dashboard and pay my maintenance fee. Finally no Error message!
> Sheraton Desert Oasis MF for 2BR Lockoff Villa $691.94


Every other year?


----------



## Quiet Pine

dioxide45 said:


> Every other year?


Of course, yes, sorry about that. Every other year. My 2nd EOY Sheraton Desert Oasis 2BR Lockoff Villa was MF $47.92.


----------



## LovesSTJ

cubigbird said:


> Westin St John Sunsey Bay Diamond Season Home Options 176,700 EOY.
> 
> 2022 Fees: $1998.19
> 2023 Fees: $2564.62
> 
> These are the fees for just the points, no club dues or anything else.
> 
> YOY Increase $566.53 or 28%.  TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT INCREASE!!!
> 
> Since that’s EOY that puts a week well over $5000 for a week.  A substantial jump!!


Ours is the same! It may be time to re-evaluate our ownership with increases like this. I understand the need to retain employees and that costs have gone up. With the job market what it is, I do not expect that the 2024 fee will be something more reasonable.


----------



## cubigbird

LovesSTJ said:


> Ours is the same! It may be time to re-evaluate our ownership with increases like this. I understand the need to retain employees and that costs have gone up. With the job market what it is, I do not expect that the 2024 fee will be something more reasonable.


I just hope the bad debt expense doesn’t soar. 2024 will have to be more reasonable or the house starts to crumble. I can’t imagine any owner having budgeted that high of an increase.  Huge increases like that aren’t sustainable.


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## rickandcindy23

Quiet Pine said:


> Vistana website was up this morning and I was able to go to the Dashboard and pay my maintenance fee. Finally no Error message!
> Sheraton Desert Oasis MF for 2BR Lockoff Villa $691.94


I got an error message just now when trying to pay my Sheraton weeks.  I am getting frustrated with the website.  

But Marriott's website is not much better.


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## ccclement250

jeffm211 said:


> Has anyone tried to pay MF from the Vistana website since Abound has launched?  I'm getting an error message when trying to pull up statements from the Association link on the website.  One would think making it easy to pay is one of the things Marriott would want working for sure!!


I am able to pay MF from Vistana's website just now. But what I don't know is 'membership fee' or 'club fee'?  Is this required once you opt-in on Abound?  Thanks!


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## jeffm211

ccclement250 said:


> I am able to pay MF from Vistana's website just now. But what I don't know is 'membership fee' or 'club fee'?  Is this required once you opt-in on Abound?  Thanks!


There is no opt-in, only opt-out. My club fee is attached to our WKV invoice where previously the VSN fees were attached to WLR and WDW.


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## dioxide45

ccclement250 said:


> I am able to pay MF from Vistana's website just now. But what I don't know is 'membership fee' or 'club fee'?  Is this required once you opt-in on Abound?  Thanks!


It is required to be paid if you want to remain in Abound. You can opt out and there should be instructions provided with your paper or PDF maintenance fee bill on how to do that. I really wouldn't recommend opting out though.


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## KyleReilly

dioxide45 said:


> It is required to be paid if you want to remain in Abound. You can opt out and there should be instructions provided with your paper or PDF maintenance fee bill on how to do that. I really wouldn't recommend opting out though.


Reading about the Abound benefits now - It looks like even those who bought resale can use abound if bought before Aug 2022. However, is there any true value? I would assume using my VOI as bought is the best value, followed by Star Options, and Abound last (value-wise)? Is that a fair statement?


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## Eric B

KyleReilly said:


> Reading about the Abound benefits now - It looks like even those who bought resale can use abound if bought before Aug 2022. However, is there any true value? I would assume using my VOI as bought is the best value, followed by Star Options, and Abound last (value-wise)? Is that a fair statement?


Value is in the eye of the beholder. I didn’t really buy my resale SVV weeks to use in Orlando, but instead to use as SOs. I elected for Club Points to try out Abound next year and got an exchange that works well for me and didn’t have to be 7 nights. I value the additional flexibility. On the other hand, I won’t be electing my WSJ weeks. YMMV.


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## dsmrp

dsmrp said:


> SVR Spa, 2bdrm
> Maintenance Fee(s)          $ 948.29
> Tax - If Applicable               $ 78.02
> TOTAL                              $1,026.31
> 
> 
> SVR Lakes, 2bdrm
> Maintenance Fee(s)         $1,048.42
> Tax - If Applicable              $123.15
> TOTAL                              $1,171.57


With breakdown:
SVR Spa, 2bdrm, Gold+

Operating       $ 759.18
Reserves         $ 189.11
RE Tax             $   78.02

TOTAL             $1,026.31



SVR Lakes, 2bdrm

Operating        $ 817.30
Reserves          $ 231.12
RE Tax              $ 123,15

TOTAL              $1,171.57


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## jeffm211

jeffm211 said:


> Has anyone tried to pay MF from the Vistana website since Abound has launched?  I'm getting an error message when trying to pull up statements from the Association link on the website.  One would think making it easy to pay is one of the things Marriott would want working for sure!!


Well, 13 days following this initial post, I am still unable to pay MF online.  Anyone else experiencing this today?


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## Priscilla

My Fees for 2 bedroom Bella with 81,000 points just came in $1671.57 due Jan,6. Breakdown is as follows. I posted it in the DB as well. I see a note on the bill indicating that you can opt out of receiving the additional exchange opportunity by paying a fee of $170. I'm guessing this is the Abound program. They always have to make things so complicated one way or the other.

Operating assessment fees- $1040
Replacement Reserves- $273.45
Tax- $123
Owners Dues- $230
ARDA-ROC- $5.


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## jeffm211

jeffm211 said:


> Well, 13 days following this initial post, I am still unable to pay MF online.  Anyone else experiencing this today?


Finally, the website worked.  All 2023 MFs paid today.  Hope some of that club fee goes to the IT fund .


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## Disneypoor

jeffm211 said:


> Finally, the website worked.  All 2023 MFs paid today.  Hope some of that club fee goes to the IT fund .


I have been trying all day to pay my 2023 MFs with no luck on the website.  I have been on hold for 40 minutes trying to get through with them to pay.  I'm beginning to think they don't really want my money.  Haha!


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## Sthack

Disneypoor said:


> I have been trying all day to pay my 2023 MFs with no luck on the website.  I have been on hold for 40 minutes trying to get through with them to pay.  I'm beginning to think they don't really want my money.  Haha!


I'm having the same issue.  I thought that maybe the website had changed but it sounds like it hasn't.


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## DanCali

*HRA 2BR Deluxe Phase II (part of 3BR Lockoff)*

2023 Vacation Ownership Assessment: $1231.35   (2022: $1089.41)   13.0% increase
2023 Condo Common Assessment: $464.96    (2022: 473.06)   1.7% decrease
2023 VAT: $205.76    (2022: $190.27)   8.1% increase
2023 Atlantis Facilities Fee: $361.24     (2022: $340.15)   6.2% increase

*2023 Total: $2263.31       (2022: $2092.89)   **8.1% increase*


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## CPNY

DanCali said:


> *HRA 2BR Deluxe Phase II (part of 3BR Lockoff)*
> 
> 2023 Vacation Ownership Assessment: $1231.35   (2022: $1089.41)   13.0% increase
> 2023 Condo Common Assessment: $464.96    (2022: 473.06)   1.7% decrease
> 2023 VAT: $205.76    (2022: $190.27)   8.1% increase
> 2023 Atlantis Facilities Fee: $361.24     (2022: $340.15)   6.2% increase
> 
> *2023 Total: $2263.31       (2022: $2092.89)   **8.1% increase*


HRA 1 Bedroom Premium - Only ownership for this account
(gold plus season, not that it matters but imagine this MF for only 51,700 SO…OUCH)





$2,216.11


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## 9598Lee

Hey there! I'm trying to pay for the club fees online and it's been cycling for 8 minutes. Did anyone else have the same issue? if Yes, how long does it take to complete?


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> HRA 1 Bedroom Premium - Only ownership for this account
> (gold plus season, not that it matters but imagine this MF for only 51,700 SO…OUCH)
> 
> View attachment 70794
> 
> $2,216.11




You really should deduct the $230 Club Dues from the total because it's not part of the MFs. It's really $1986.11.

It's obviously still very high, but you made it look like it's as high as the 2BR Deluxe, and it's not quite as high. For perspective, I expect the 1BR Premium Gold to be worth about 2000 points (based on some very educated calculations I ran) so that's $1/point in MFs and won't be attractive on the resale market for someone intending to enroll it. And, as you said, it's also very high on $/SO basis.

With fees of $2000 for large 1BR units and $3600 for 2BR lockoffs, it's getting painful for many owners. We still get good value for the 2BR Deluxe, but those are just a handful of units in Phase 2 that were split from 3BR units and sold separately. Even so, there are a couple of those 2BR Deluxe units in Platinum and Gold seasons offered on RedWeek for free, which is very surprising to me. Those still rent reliably at around $1500 over MFs and therefore I'd expect them to be worth around $6k-$8K (with 4-5 year payback, which is attractive). Could be highly distressed sales from a bad financial situation or inheritance, but if those units have also hit rock bottom, the situation is bad in general. I think the 3BR units in Phase II also still offer decent value given that you can rent the small 1BR side or the 2BR side. But if most owners are feeling the pinch, it's not good for anyone else either. If owners start defaulting, the rest end up footing the bill.


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## CPNY

DanCali said:


> You really should deduct the $230 Club Dues from the total because it's not part of the MFs. It's really $1986.11.
> 
> It's obviously still very high, but you made it look like it's as high as the 2BR Deluxe, and it's not quite as high. For perspective, I expect the 1BR Premium Gold to be worth about 2000 points (based on some very educated calculations I ran) so that's $1/point in MFs and won't be attractive on the resale market for someone intending to enroll it. And, as you said, it's also very high on $/SO basis.
> 
> With fees of $2000 for large 1BR units and $3600 for 2BR lockoffs, it's getting painful for many owners. We still get good value for the 2BR Deluxe, but those are just a handful of units in Phase 2 that were split from 3BR units and sold separately. Even so, there are a couple of those 2BR Deluxe units in Platinum and Gold seasons offered on RedWeek for free, which is very surprising to me. Those still rent reliably at around $1500 over MFs and therefore I'd expect them to be worth around $6k-$8K (with 4-5 year payback, which is attractive). Could be highly distressed sales from a bad financial situation or inheritance, but if those units have also hit rock bottom, the situation is bad in general. I think the 3BR units in Phase II also still offer decent value given that you can rent the small 1BR side or the 2BR side. But if most owners are feeling the pinch, it's not good for anyone else either. If owners start defaulting, the rest end up footing the bill.


I understand what you’re saying with regard to the actual MF vs additional fees, but try telling that to an owner of just one unit. The check they write for their statement each year is all they care about. We are in the minority on understanding maint fees and ownership in general.

People are fed up and most HRA owners are ready to just stop paying. It’s unfortunate that the VAT, higher club dues, and Atlantis fee really bump the total due considerably.

Delinquencies will continue to grow considering many original owners are aging out and their kids don’t want to be bothered with these timeshares.

Yes…. There was a time that the phase 2, 2 bedroom deluxe plat units actually sold for a few thousand. That time wasn’t that long ago. I was surprised to see a few being given away for free.


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> I understand what you’re saying with regard to the actual MF vs additional fees, but try telling that to an owner of just one unit. The check they write for their statement each year is all they care about. We are in the minority on understanding maint fees and ownership in general.
> 
> People are fed up and most HRA owners are ready to just stop paying. It’s unfortunate that the VAT, higher club dues, and Atlantis fee really bump the total due considerably.
> 
> Delinquencies will continue to grow considering many original owners are aging out and their kids don’t want to be bothered with these timeshares.
> 
> Yes…. There was a time that the phase 2, 2 bedroom deluxe plat units actually sold for a few thousand. That time wasn’t that long ago. I was surprised to see a few being given away for free.



I don't have a beef with the Atlantis fee ($36/night for the large 1BR). The VAT sucks since it's on top of and double the property tax amount. But I am not sure how the board can claim some of these expenses are reasonable. Looking particularly at the proposed budget line items for the large 1BR, some of the expenses are:

The admin expenses just add up... "Administration", "Front Desk", "Management Fee", "Owner Services" that's $228 combined just there.
$219 for housekeeping - This is the largest line item by far. They come for 1 tidy and 1 cleaning. Some all-suite mid-range hotels (Residence Inn and such) operate at $150-$200/night suites, but the cost to clean your similar room is $219? VSN used to charge $39 for the extra housekeeping fees, and this is $219?
$31 for credit card fee - why do we need to pay that at all when it's their choice to make Atlantis cashless? And what if you charge nothing at all during your stay? Do hotel guests pay that?
$96 for bad debt expense - that's about 6% of the total. Does that mean 6% of owners are not paying their MFs at all?
$73 for electricity - for a 900 sq ft 1BR unit for 1 week? That's about $320 for 1 month.
These numbers look completely outlandish for the 2BR lockoff units... $420 for housekeeping?


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> I am not sure how the board can claim some of these expenses are reasonable. Looking particularly at the proposed budget line items for the large 1BR, some of the expenses are:
> 
> 
> $219 for housekeeping - This is the largest line item by far. They come for 1 tidy and 1 cleaning. Some all-suite mid-range hotels (residence inn and such) operate at $150-$200/night suites, but the cost to clean your similar room is $219? VSN used to charge $39 for the extra housekeeping fees, and this is $219?
> $31 for credit card fee - why do we need to pay that at all when it's their choice to make Atlantis cashless? And what if you charge nothing at all during your stay? Do hotel guests pay that?
> $96 for bad debt expense - that's about 6% of the total. Does that mean 6% of owners are not paying their MFs at all?
> $73 for electricity - for a 900 sq ft 1BR unit for 1 week? That's about $320 for 1 month.
> These numbers look completely outlandish for the 2BR lockoff units... $420 for housekeeping?


The HOA board needs to be investigated


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> $31 for credit card fee - why do we need to pay that at all when it's their choice to make Atlantis cashless? And what if you charge nothing at all during your stay? Do hotel guests pay that?


This is to cover credit card processing fees for owners that pay their maintenance fee bill by credit card. The HOA has to cover those merchant fees. Cashless resort really shouldn't have anything to do with that. The merchant fees would be baked into the cost of whatever goods or services you purchase.


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## cubigbird

DanCali said:


> *HRA 2BR Deluxe Phase II (part of 3BR Lockoff)*
> 
> 2023 Vacation Ownership Assessment: $1231.35   (2022: $1089.41)   13.0% increase
> 2023 Condo Common Assessment: $464.96    (2022: 473.06)   1.7% decrease
> 2023 VAT: $205.76    (2022: $190.27)   8.1% increase
> 2023 Atlantis Facilities Fee: $361.24     (2022: $340.15)   6.2% increase
> 
> *2023 Total: $2263.31       (2022: $2092.89)   **8.1% increase*


8.1% increase seems reasonable compare to my WSJ Sunset Bay 28% increase.  I agree, we are getting into the stratosphere for MFs.  There may be some intention??  Clearly boards aren’t “doing what they can” to keep costs reasonable.


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## CPNY

cubigbird said:


> 8.1% increase seems reasonable compare to my WSJ Sunset Bay 28% increase.  I agree, we are getting into the stratosphere for MFs.  There may be some intention??  Clearly boards aren’t “doing what they can” to keep costs reasonable.


I wonder, does Marriott have any influence on these increaes? Maybe they want to take some WSJ and HRA deeds back for some new reason.


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## cubigbird

CPNY said:


> I wonder, does Marriott have any influence on these increaes? Maybe they want to take some WSJ and HRA deeds back for some new reason.


That absolutely has crossed my mind.  It’s probably the easiest way for Marriott to quietly get them back….price owners out of their fees.  Simple economics.  A week at WSJ is now well over $5,000.


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## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I wonder, does Marriott have any influence on these increaes? Maybe they want to take some WSJ and HRA deeds back for some new reason.


I don't know how much Marriott is involved at HRA, but at the Grande Vista budget meetings, there is a Marriott finance employee in the room during those meeting. Marriott determines the proposed numbers, the BOD reviews them to go out to the owners as part of the Estimated Budget, then they all get back together to finance the numbers. I am sure Marriott can propose just about anything they want. Some items probably get pushboard from the BOD, but others items just skate through. Is HRA managed by Vistana?

I don't see why they would want those units back. THey would then have to carry the MF burden unless they can sell them or get enough control to dissolve the timeshare and convert them to something else. Of the two, only WSJ can be added to the MVC Abound Trust.


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## timsi

People give HOA too much credit. In addition from being preselected by Vistana, the voting process is in a way that Vistana has an outsized influence on the vote. To make things worse, there is no direct contact with the owners (do you know the email addresses of your board members?) so you can't communicate properly with these who are supposed to represent you. The cherry on the cake is that all their information comes from the manager with no possibility to independently verify it.


----------



## cubigbird

timsi said:


> People give HOA too much credit. In addition from being preselected by Vistana, the voting process is in a way that Vistana has an outsized influence on the vote. To make things worse, there is no direct contact with the owners (do you know the email addresses of your board members?) so you can't communicate properly with these who are supposed to represent you. The cherry on the cake is that all their information comes from the manager with no possibility to independently verify it.


Aren’t audits required?  Surely there has to be a way to review books and records?


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## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Aren’t audits required?  Surely there has to be a way to review books and records?


An owner should be able to request a copy of the audited financial statements. Instructions are available on Vistana.com on how to do this.


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## timsi

The audits are not granular enough to hold management accountable, they just confirm the numbers are real. If they paid 10 bucks for a pillow or 35, if the salaries are above the market rate, if they mix credit card expenses between renters and owners, how the Bonvoy renters with daily cleaning contribute to the housekeeping expencesand many other things that are very important to the overall budget, you'll never know.


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## timsi

Also, contrary to a common myth, the audits do NOT cover any inventory issues


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> I understand what you’re saying with regard to the actual MF vs additional fees, but try telling that to an owner of just one unit. The check they write for their statement each year is all they care about. We are in the minority on understanding maint fees and ownership in general.
> 
> People are fed up and most HRA owners are ready to just stop paying. It’s unfortunate that the VAT, higher club dues, and Atlantis fee really bump the total due considerably.
> 
> Delinquencies will continue to grow considering many original owners are aging out and their kids don’t want to be bothered with these timeshares.
> 
> Yes…. There was a time that the phase 2, 2 bedroom deluxe plat units actually sold for a few thousand. That time wasn’t that long ago. I was surprised to see a few being given away for free.


I think @DanCali 's point is that, when reporting maintenance fees here or in the database, you should not report the Club Dues if they are included in your MF invoice.  Club Dues will vary by OBL, and some people seem to get billed for them separately.  So for consistency and accuracy it is better to exclude them.

I realize that, if I understand correctly, Harborside owners are being charged separate dues because they’re not part of Abound yet, but I still think it is better to report the MFs and not include the club dues.

But I totally agree that Harborside owners are looking at the bottom line number and asking themselves if it’s worth hanging on to or not.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> I think @DanCali 's point is that, when reporting maintenance fees here or in the database, you should not report the Club Dues if they are included in your MF invoice.  Club Dues will vary by OBL, and some people seem to get billed for them separately.  So for consistency and accuracy it is better to exclude them.
> 
> I realize that, if I understand correctly, Harborside owners are being charged separate dues because they’re not part of Abound yet, but I still think it is better to report the MFs and not include the club dues.
> 
> But I totally agree that Harborside owners are looking at the bottom line number and asking themselves if it’s worth hanging on to or not.


Harborside owners are being charged club dues in their maint fees. It seems mandatory owners are being billed dues in their MF and not separately.


----------



## DanCali

Yes, but for some owners it may be billed via a different week. For example, I have the club dues on my WKV week. And some owners may pay less because they are Select. It’s just inconsistent across owners of the same unit type. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Yes, but for some owners it may be billed via a different week. For example, I have the club dues on my WKV week. And some owners may pay less because they are Select. It’s just inconsistent across owners of the same unit type.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We had similar issues years ago with Marriott weeks in California. The tax amount seemed to differ based on where, how one bought and how much one paid. People would report different tax amounts, but the taxes where billed separately.

Also with the above HRA. Some owners won't have the Club Dues included in the bill at all as it may be included in a different bill. Now one is reporting two different amounts for the same resort, unit size and season. I don't like that the database has a field for Membership Fee. I have two bills for SVV. One has the Membership Fee and the other doesn't. If I calculate the MF to SO ratio based on the total bills, it makes the numbers completely inaccurate.

If one wants to calculate MF to SO or to CP to compare between resorts or weeks, then Club Fee should be excluded.


----------



## LovesSTJ

So according to the insert I got in my club dues bill there should be something marked "Club Dues" in the Dashboard to pay this new fee but I see no such thing. I own in WSJ SB and my fee was not included in my annual MF. Am I the one only who is not seeing the ability to pay club dues from the Dashboard?


----------



## CPNY

LovesSTJ said:


> So according to the insert I got in my club dues bill there should be something marked "Club Dues" in the Dashboard to pay this new fee but I see no such thing. I own in WSJ SB and my fee was not included in my annual MF. Am I the one only who is not seeing the ability to pay club dues from the Dashboard?


You’re not the only one. I’ve heard of this happening with others as well. I suggest giving vistana a call to figure it out or pay them over the phone


----------



## dioxide45

LovesSTJ said:


> So according to the insert I got in my club dues bill there should be something marked "Club Dues" in the Dashboard to pay this new fee but I see no such thing. I own in WSJ SB and my fee was not included in my annual MF. Am I the one only who is not seeing the ability to pay club dues from the Dashboard?


It won't really be on the Dashboard, but instead under the section for "View Statements & Make Payment". If you don't see it there, then you will need to call.


----------



## sctug

dioxide45 said:


> It won't really be on the Dashboard, but instead under the section for "View Statements & Make Payment". If you don't see it there, then you will need to call.


That's what I did too "View Statements & Make Payment" when paying online, not under the dashboard. It's gone thru.


----------

