# Interesting sales conversation at the MOC today.....



## oldkey (Apr 8, 2010)

Our sales rep today told us the following:

- they are shutting down the MOC sales center for two full weeks to train the sales team on new products
- Marriott is moving away from fee simple deeds to a points based system where you own nothing but essentially pre-pay your vacation so we needed to buy any remaing MOC that were availble while we still could. He used the infamous "let me show you the dwindling inventory list" document we see every time we visit...
- June 1 will be a big announcement regarding this change - will also be an announcement affecting buyers of 3rd party properties not purchased directly from Marriott. He would not give specifics but intimated we would be sorry if we did not buy directly from Marriott
- starting February 1 - because of the change to a points based system, Marriott has been feverishing excericising it's ROFR. He "dared me" to buy a mountain garden view MOC I found on Redweek at $17,500 saying that it would never make it through ROFR.

I had the feeling if we gave him more time he would have told us who shot JFK and where Elvis was hiding.....hardest 15,000 points I ever earned.


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## PerryM (Apr 8, 2010)

*Reality sets in at Marriott???*



oldkey said:


> Our sales rep today told us the following:
> 
> - they are shutting down the MOC sales center for two full weeks to train the sales team on new products
> - Marriott is moving away from fee simple deeds to a points based system where you own nothing but essentially pre-pay your vacation so we needed to buy any remaing MOC that were availble while we still could. He used the infamous "let me show you the dwindling inventory list" document we see every time we visit...
> ...



Doesn't sound like the once proud Marriott that I used to know - sounds like a company scrambling around trying to stay alive...

P.S.

Marriott needs to watch more TV and learn a valuable lesson - "If you have a winner don't mess with it".  CSI hasn't changed in years and is still near #1 - they aren't about to mess with success.

There probably is some kind of rule that goes: The amount of change a company does is directly proportional to how desperate they are.

All one has to do is read the news and you get the impression that "Happy days" are far far away from where we are now.  So this is the time Marriott shuts down sales, unveils an new Point system of exchanges, and is prepared to drive the resale Marriott market down the toilet?

Our hapless timeshare salesrep spews what has now become typical for Marriott - "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - 4 years of this stuff and Marriott only gets more and more desperate.

Marriott, we, the owners, are not the enemy - your enemy is the educated consumer and 21st century technology that lets us pull out our cell phone and do a Google search while you spew out all the lies and misinformation.  We can catch you red-handed with the lie or misinformation before you can finish your sales pitch.  We can also record it while you talk and post it on YouTube 1 minute later.  Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.

I can just dream of it - Timeshare Lies..... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=timeshare+lies&aq=f 

Good luck with that Marriott - change all the systems/schemes/procedures you want and it won't help a bit - your very actions will prove that.  The more you change the worse it will get.

Treating you owners as the enemy is a stupid idea - but I guess a worldwide flop is needed to demonstrate that to you.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Sounds like a bunch of sale person fluff to get you to BUY TODAY or you will be sorry. We know pretty much for a fact that Marriott is not exercising ROFR. So as that saying goes, his lips were moving...


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## jimf41 (Apr 8, 2010)

53 days and counting...


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## jimf41 (Apr 8, 2010)

Did he say if there was going to be a parade? I love parades. If there is going to be a parade I'll get my old uniform out of the attic and have it cleaned.


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## indyhorizons (Apr 8, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Did he say if there was going to be a parade? I love parades. If there is going to be a parade I'll get my old uniform out of the attic and have it cleaned.


  :rofl: 

You can't have a parade without: and .                   :hysterical:


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## SueDonJ (Apr 8, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Did he say if there was going to be a parade? I love parades. If there is going to be a parade I'll get my old uniform out of the attic and have it cleaned.



:hysterical:   Best response to one of these threads yet!


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## m61376 (Apr 8, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Did he say if there was going to be a parade? I love parades. If there is going to be a parade I'll get my old uniform out of the attic and have it cleaned.



:rofl: I bow to the master....


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## tiel (Apr 8, 2010)

*Minor tidbits*

We just got back from sales presentation in CA.  We were told only that a really big change to the internal program is coming in June, but very people knew the details at this point.  Our rep knew nothing about the new program (at least that she was willing to share), except there was to be some significant training for them very soon.  She also indicated the changes would be a good thing for current owners, as Marriott would not want to antagonize 500k+ owners. 

We tried to get some meaningful information from her, but had no success.  However, we were not pressured in any way, and no mention was made of limited inventories.  Guess we were lucky in that regard.

She did menition MVCI would not be offering EOYs any more, except for those in inventory (resales), and they weren't going to build any more 2 master-bedroom lockoffs they had at The Enclaves.

We haven't been to a sales presentation in a couple of years, and we noticed a couple of differences.  First, there was a minimal selection of refreshment while we waited for our rep...not a big deal certainly, just another sign of the times.  A bigger one was the appearance of ""survey" person at the end of our presentation.  He asked a few questions about our rep and her performance, did we like what we saw on the tour, why we didn't buy today, and how likely were we in the next 12-24 months to purchase another week.  Again, no real pressure applied.  Then, we were offered a platinum 7-day visit back to the resort any time in the next 18 months if we paid them now for what was a little more than a maintenance fee on a 2-bdrm;  we could spread the payments out, or if we paid in full now, we would get a $200 Marriott certificate.  This had never happened to us before, and we guess it is yet another sign of the times...one more chance at sale.

All in all, this was probably the best sales presentation experience we have had...recognizing that these things are never wonderful!

Now, we just have to wait to see what is going to happen in June.  Hope it ain't all bad!


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## dougp26364 (Apr 8, 2010)

oldkey said:


> Our sales rep today told us the following:
> 
> - they are shutting down the MOC sales center for two full weeks to train the sales team on new products
> - Marriott is moving away from fee simple deeds to a points based system
> ...



I think experienced Tuggers can spot the obvious lies. 

All I see here that sounds like it has an ounce of validity to it are:

1. The June 1st date (give or take a couple of weeks)

2. Marriott going to RTU ownership. (we've heard this repeated several times)

Now for the lies:

1. We all know that Marriott hasn't been building anything new. All builds have been stalled by the economy. 

2. We also know Marriott hasn't been exercising ROFR on anything. 

So this guys only seem to be stretching the truth half the time. I love how he tried to twist it to make it look like buying into the old system would be better than waiting and buying into the new system. Makes you wonder what goes through a timeshare marketing offices mind when they lay out what their salesmen should say. 

Right now they're spinning it so that the new system looks so bad you need to buy now, while you can, to get in on the old system. In a couple of months, assuming they actually produce something new in a couple of months, they'll be selling the new system like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They'll be telling people you don't want to buy any of those old nasty deeded weeks because their the old system and it's not any good. 

I never know whether I should laugh out loud at their logic and walk away or just shake my head and walk away. The one constant is it's best just to walk away.

As for us we'll give any new system Marroitt comes out with a good looking over. I will say, at this point in time, I'm NOT thrilled with what I'm hearing has been said by Marriott's sales staff. A points based reservations system is one thing. Giving up deeds for RTU is a different animal. 

Time will tell and it's no good to discuss what we will or won't do until we see it. I'm just not real excited about it from what I've heard so far.


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## oldkey (Apr 8, 2010)

*Though he certainly wanted us to buy yesterday,.....*

....the sales person said many times "do not ever sell your weeks" because you will no longer be able to "own" a piece of Kaanapali at these prices. He made it clear that the timeshare industry now knows that RTU is best product for them. He seemed quite interested tha we owned at Disney and was quite inquisitive about the comparison between Disney's points system and the Marriott product. I got the feeling that he had been told there was some modeling on the Disney product.

Our real question has been - hurry up and buy the extra weeks we want at MOC before June 1, wait to see what happens or just keep looking until we find something that we think is a best price regardless of the June 1 outcome.....


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## JimIg23 (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey, if they go to RTU maybe deeded weeks will have strong resale values like I think Doug posted in one of our many threads on this...


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## dougp26364 (Apr 8, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> Hey, if they go to RTU maybe deeded weeks will have strong resale values like I think Doug posted in one of our many threads on this...



While it's a possiblity, what would really help matters would be if Marriott actually got agressive with ROFR again. The fact they aren't selling deeded weeks plus ROFR could put a stronger value on deeded weeks if (and it's a big if) that's what resale buyers want. 

We'll just have to wait and see how good this new product is that Marriott will supposedly release in June. Who knows, this might be the greatest product in the timeshare world as we know it. My feelings are it will either be great or it will be one of the largest eggs ever laid by a timeshare developer. I'm hoping for greatness but, with the way it's looking right now, I'd almost be willing to bet on the egg.


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## GregT (Apr 8, 2010)

Oldkey,

Very interesting information -- and with the knowledge and disclosure that I'm someone who thinks that the value (such as it is) of timeshares will only go down over time, and with your comment that you're looking for an extra week, I would go ahead and buy that deeded MOC week if I were you.  

As others have said, its very unlikely that Marriott is now (or in the future) going to exercise ROFR except where the value is too cheap to pass on.    I could see them exercising ROFR in the future if their points program is successful and they need inventory.   So I think deeded properties will be available by resale for quite a while.

But, I also believe the deeded properties will have greater intrinsic value/access then pure points, and if you're buying to be able to stay there, having a deed will be preferential.    I remain pessimistic on the financial future of timeshares as an "investment" but believe that we're buying for the vacations/memories.

And I think a points system is coming -- this will be a great sales tool to sell all that unsold inventory -- and building 4 for Ko Olina is coming, and this is a great way to sell the vision of buy in Florida and vacation in Oahu.

Good luck with your efforts!


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## dougp26364 (Apr 9, 2010)

There is not now, nor will there ever be, a "financial" investment side to timeshares. If you're not buying them to use them, then you're wasting both your money and your time. 

If it is something you want, something you can afford and something you are convinced you will be able to use for a good number of years (10 years is my rule of thumb), then buy what you like. Don't buy thinking there will ever be a return on your money or thinking that it will be a tiger exchange week. The money will be flushed down the drain and, just like we're talking about now, exchange rules change on a regular basis. Developers have learned to use changing the rules as a way to create cash flow or squeeze money existing owners. Change or get left behind is the mantra often repeated on sales floors. 

I will acknowledge that there is the rare exception but, it is just that, that RARE exception.


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## oldkey (Apr 9, 2010)

*Agreed*



dougp26364 said:


> There is not now, nor will there ever be, a "financial" investment side to timeshares. If you're not buying them to use them, then you're wasting both your money and your time.
> 
> If it is something you want, something you can afford and something you are convinced you will be able to use for a good number of years (10 years is my rule of thumb), then buy what you like. Don't buy thinking there will ever be a return on your money or thinking that it will be a tiger exchange week. The money will be flushed down the drain and, just like we're talking about now, exchange rules change on a regular basis. Developers have learned to use changing the rules as a way to create cash flow or squeeze money existing owners. Change or get left behind is the mantra often repeated on sales floors.
> 
> I will acknowledge that there is the rare exception but, it is just that, that RARE exception.



Great points GregT and dougp26364. We own MOC soley to stay at MOC. Staying means using it ourselves or renting - no trading or points - ever. We want to retire spending multiple weeks on Kaanapali Beach. Each time we have traveled to the island, rooms and condos keep rising in price, but little building is possible between the Hyatt and Black Rock - our favorite stretch of beach in the world. I feel that when we do retire we will no longer be able to afford the area - so we are pre-paying for that future luxury. BUT - we have been blessed at earning more than double our maintenance fees each year in rental income when we do not use the weeks thus paying for even the cost of money to "carry" the weeks. Thanks to all the Tuggers that taught us the tricks to do so. At today's soft prices I feel strongly we will be able to pay for our new weeks in about 12 - 15 years with the rental income. We have already rented our 2011 President's Week units.

Wanting my kids to inherit my weeks, a RTU is not something I want to see here. So I believe that I need to buy extra weeks now before I can no longer do so. As noted, my concern is what June 1 will do to the value and availability of deeded weeks. Owning Disney already, I don't care much about a points system for Marriott - I will never trade.

Has anyone bought an MOC week that did not make it through ROFR since the infamous February 1 date?


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## dougp26364 (Apr 9, 2010)

oldkey said:


> Great points GregT and dougp26364. We own MOC soley to stay at MOC. Staying means using it ourselves or renting - no trading or points - ever. We want to retire spending multiple weeks on Kaanapali Beach. Each time we have traveled to the island, rooms and condos keep rising in price, but little building is possible between the Hyatt and Black Rock - our favorite stretch of beach in the world. I feel that when we do retire we will no longer be able to afford the area - so we are pre-paying for that future luxury. BUT - we have been blessed at earning more than double our maintenance fees each year in rental income when we do not use the weeks thus paying for even the cost of money to "carry" the weeks. Thanks to all the Tuggers that taught us the tricks to do so. At today's soft prices I feel strongly we will be able to pay for our new weeks in about 12 - 15 years with the rental income. We have already rented our 2011 President's Week units.
> 
> Wanting my kids to inherit my weeks, a RTU is not something I want to see here. So I believe that I need to buy extra weeks now before I can no longer do so. As noted, my concern is what June 1 will do to the value and availability of deeded weeks. Owning Disney already, I don't care much about a points system for Marriott - I will never trade.
> 
> Has anyone bought an MOC week that did not make it through ROFR since the infamous February 1 date?



In that case, it's what you want. So if you feel you can afford it, then I'd pull the trigger. 

Right now I own more weeks/points in different systems than I can really use. But we purchased were we wanted to go (at the time) and bought when we could afford to buy with thoughts towards future events such as grandchildren and retirement years. 

Unlike you we don't rent out our weeks. None are in really prime spots where I feel I could make a profit. I will consider renting out some of our points based ownerships at cost, or even a little below cost, to our co-workers, relatives and friends. So far that's happened all of once unless you count the AC's I've given away. 

You know what you want, you have a plan that's been working for you and you can afford it. You know you'll use what you want or can rent it out for a good price. You know you want deeds rather than a RTU program such as Disney's. IMHO, for you the time to buy is now. I wouldn't worry about what Marriot might or might not do in June.


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## m61376 (Apr 9, 2010)

Oldkey- I agree with Doug. Given your usage/future plans, I would think that looking for a great buy and buying a resale unit now would work best for you. You'll own the deeded week now and in the future.

If these rumors have any truth to them, it looks like the new program will be more like the Asia Pacific program than I would have liked. It doesn't sound like an overlay program. I think, like DVC, it may be a real winner in the marketplace for future buyers, but will likely take several years before it is considered as such. 

Current owners, on the other hand, are used to a very different ownership, and I think many will resist giving up their deeded ownership. The amount of value of those deeds is subject to a lot of debate here, but I do know non Tug friends who happily bought directly view their ownership as having inherent value. I may be wrong, but I think the average owner views their purchase as owning a piece of a vacation condo, and I think the average owner is going to have a hard time giving up their "rights." Essentially, it will be trading ownership of an actual entity to a club membership, and I think people are going to have a problem with that.

I know from Fletch's posts that the thought is that this program will be most attractive to Platinum week owners. However, I know that I paid $$'s because I wanted to be able to travel to where I bought, and I think many Platinum week owners spent the money because they wanted those prime reservations. I think those who bought primarily to use will hesitate to join a program where they'll be competing with owners elsewhere to make their reservation. If I owned a guaranteed holiday week, I don't know that competing with all Marriott owners to make my reservation would be that attractive, even understanding that they may have to use the value of two weeks to do so. So, I am not so sure Platinum week, and esp. Plat. Plus week, owners will flock to join the new system.

There is the very real possibility that such a new system may not generate the initial interest that Marriott is counting on, and that they will have to invest money to get the system rolling. The way to do that would be to get more units in the system, which at resorts with a lot of unsold inventory will be easy. However, since many of the desirable properties are close to being sold out, with very limited or no inventory left in certain categories, Marriott "may" start picking off some of those ROFR bargains that are coming across their desk IF enough owner interest isn't generated to get owners to join and deposit those weeks into the program pool. They can't advertise the ability to trade into Christmas or New Years skiing, in Maui or in Aruba, etc., unless they actually have some of those weeks. In this climate, it will be interesting to see if Marriott is willing to do whatever it may take to get the ball rolling, including investing in buying properties to fund it if owners don't flock to join.


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## PerryM (Apr 9, 2010)

*The tell-tale heart....*

Marriott will NEVER go to a RTU - the existing timeshares are never going to be converted and you can't have a mixture of both - that would be beyond stupidity, it would be insanity.

A RTU is where the timeshare industry should have started from at the beginning, like Disney, but with one HUGE difference - at the end of the RTU the timeshare dissolves, the 52 weeks vanish and the condo becomes whole again and can be sold, like whole ownership condos/resorts, with the proceeds split among the owners.

Marriott's new exchange scheme will simply "sit on top" of the existing structure and could be of benefit to the owners, however I doubt that's what Marriott has in it's corporate heart.

Marriott has spread the rumor of the internal exchange system for 4+ years now and look where it has gotten them - sales have dried up and they have stopped building timeshares and must now confiscate usage of the owner's weeks to be used in their new sales gimmick.  Oh sure you can blame the economy but you have instilled so much fear that folks won't buy your product anymore - you have warned us of this and we are listening.

Marriott: You can't sell something you don't have and all you have done is shoot yourself in the foot for 4 years now - your sales are gone and you are on the verge of a dire consequences.  All because you had to shoot off your mouth about your desire to kill the resale market.  To top it off you are the largest resale buyer in the world - you want lower resale prices to make more profit for your stockholders and we are to pay for it!


Marriott - this internal exchange system has killed you in the last 4+ years - it will finish the job when you implement it and tick off hundreds of thousands of owners who don't need to spend thousands of dollars, for each unit, to join and then lose millions in lower resale prices.  We are not stupid, some of us know what you have done and what you plan to do with our units.

Don't release this monstrosity - do something else, anything else....


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## oldkey (Apr 9, 2010)

*My intial reaction....*



m61376 said:


> Oldkey- I agree with Doug. Given your usage/future plans, I would think that looking for a great buy and buying a resale unit now would work best for you. You'll own the deeded week now and in the future.
> 
> If these rumors have any truth to them, it looks like the new program will be more like the Asia Pacific program than I would have liked. It doesn't sound like an overlay program. I think, like DVC, it may be a real winner in the marketplace for future buyers, but will likely take several years before it is considered as such.
> 
> ...



....is that Marriott will once again implement ROFR for high demand properties such as MOC. I do think buying before June 1 makes sense and in my case deeded ownership in MOC is the answer.

So now - how best to close before June 1 and should I care about the date? What are the possible/probable consequences of the new program to owners that did not buy directly from Marriott. Since I do not trade or use points, should I care?


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## timeos2 (Apr 9, 2010)

*They can only penalize those they deal with. Don't play the game*



oldkey said:


> .
> 
> So now - how best to close before June 1 and should I care about the date? What are the possible/probable consequences of the new program to owners that did not buy directly from Marriott. Since I do not trade or use points, should I care?



Marriott cannot "do anything" to your use/trade rights that you own no matter how you purchased them (retail or resale). They can - and may - make any type of restriction or impose any penalty, etc they wish as regards using that ownership for optional, Marriott operated things like a voluntary internal trade system, any type of "reward points" (already limited),  any type of resale or "value enhanced" trade up - things that you are not given guaranteed rights to with a purchase. Anything they offer through sales, which are going to be grossly overpriced anyway, can, at their whim, carry restrictions based on how you obtained the original product (resale or retail/direct). 

Buying any timeshare product retail is paying too much so if they choose to penalize resale buyers when they later deal with them direct or not really shouldn't matter to you. If it isn't available at resale then you don't want it (unless you enjoy paying too much for things). End of story.  The "penalties" can only apply to optional thinbgs, never to the base property and use rights you purchased.


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## banquopack (Apr 9, 2010)

*Guess I'll have a fun stay.....*

We're at MOC June 4-11th, guess I'll have to look forward to hearing all the crazy new plans they come up with.  

Wonder what the rep would say if I brought my netbook to the presentation and was logged into TUG.  I could bring up this thread - might make the presentation fun!

If we brought along our ChiChis we could even turn it into a little drinking game


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## l2trade (Apr 9, 2010)

"If it isn't available at resale then you don't want it (unless you enjoy paying too much for things).  End of story. " - timeos2

This is really great advice that flies in the face of all the sales spin on where things seem headed!  I love it!!!


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## m61376 (Apr 9, 2010)

oldkey said:


> ....is that Marriott will once again implement ROFR for high demand properties such as MOC. I do think buying before June 1 makes sense and in my case deeded ownership in MOC is the answer.
> 
> So now - how best to close before June 1 and should I care about the date? What are the possible/probable consequences of the new program to owners that did not buy directly from Marriott. Since I do not trade or use points, should I care?



The only way the date MAY impact you is IF (a very big IF) Marriott feels it needs to start things off with a bang and wants to pad the number of weeks in the points program. That might cause them to nab some of those great deals we've seen over the last year, and they might start  exercising ROFR. 

IF the program is great and IF you were interested in it, then my gut feeling is that current resale weeks may be included, so there might be a benefit of buying before any new program is rolled out. On the flip side, IF they penalize future resale owners, then the value of resale weeks may go down; if there is a higher buy-in for resale weeks then I'd expect the resale value to drop proportionately. It's anyone's guess, though; you could see strength in resales of deeded weeks in sought after destinations IF Marriott no longer sells deeded property. 

If I was you- I'd look for a great buy on a week and buy it now if I found a good buy. I'd look at it that I was getting a good buy- prices may go up, they may go down- but if you keep on waiting you'll have lost some of the vacation opportunities that you would otherwise have enjoyed. With the economy, travel is off and Hawaii travel seems to have been hit harder. Some of those units have gone for surprising prices on Ebay.


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## taffy19 (Apr 9, 2010)

oldkey said:


> ....is that Marriott will once again implement ROFR for high demand properties such as MOC. I do think buying before June 1 makes sense and in my case deeded ownership in MOC is the answer.
> 
> So now - how best to close before June 1 and should I care about the date? What are the possible/probable consequences of the new program to owners that did not buy directly from Marriott. Since I do not trade or use points, should I care?


My fear would be that they will give people, who have converted to the new point system, an earlier date to make reservations like they did with multiple week owners.  They did it once and may do it again and, as long as everyone can make reservations in the time frame that is specified in the deeded contract, they do not violate the contract.

I have been told by several people already that we have nothing to worry about because we have a fixed week.

Last year, I asked about the uncertainty of a new system and what it would do to resales.  The answer was not to worry because they would sell the week for us.  They may do this if they are sold out and people still want to buy here.  I see them starting to do the ROFR too at places where they need inventory and change the deed to the new system.  This is the only way they can do it if people will not convert to the new system voluntarily.

We don't have to wait much longer to find out what they will come out with.  I am curious but I doubt if it will affect us as we love the way it is right now.


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## PerryM (Apr 9, 2010)

*VIP levels...*



iconnections said:


> My fear would be that they will give people, who have converted to the new point system, an earlier date to make reservations like they did with multiple week owners.  They did it once and may do it again and, as long *as everyone can make reservations in the time frame that is specified in the deeded contract, they do not violate the contract.*
> 
> I have been told by several people already that we have nothing to worry about because we have a fixed week.
> 
> ...



I don't know about that.

Marriott's new scheme is going to be totally voluntary to everyone and they can set any kind of rules they want.  I doubt that new sales will have the voluntary aspect of it - it will be intertwined.

So there is nothing to stop Marriott from doing the following:

VIP Levels:

Platinum level: 50,000+ Points gets 30 days advanced bookings above anyone else
Gold Level: 40,000+ Points gets 15 days advanced bookings
Silver level: 30,000+ Points gets 7 days advanced bookings
Everyone else gets 365 days in advance bookings.

They do this now with 2 or more weeks (13 month reservations) why assume they won't do exactly the same with the new scheme?  The more Points you bring to the exchange system the more goodies you get.

I'm assuming that a complete caste system comes free with this new exchange scheme.


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## m61376 (Apr 9, 2010)

Regardless of any reservation gimmicks, they still can only put into the new system whatever portion of each week is part of the new system. If, for arguments sake, 50% of the owners remain choose not to turn in their deeded weeks (assuming that's the new system) and retain their current ownership. 50% of every week reservations can be used for points reservations and 50% for the current reservations. Thus, they can only give a reservation advantage to those opting into the new system, IF they choose to do that.

I think multiple levels of ownership and different booking priorities would create a reservation nightmare, and I don't think they will try to make the system so complex. Having two systems running concurrently is going to tax the reservation system as is and, while I may be proved wrong, I don't think they'll add yet another complication. The 13 month rule, while it does add some complexity, is pretty simplistic for the reservation agents, because it involves weeks being booked consecutively or concurrently. 

If we are going to find it confusing, imagine the mess the reservation agents will have.


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## oldkey (Apr 9, 2010)

*Decision made...*

....intend to buy one or two weeks as the deals come up, hoping to beat the June 1 date if possible.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Now I need:

- a couple of cheap 2/3 weeks 
- a quality, fast closing agent, etc.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 9, 2010)

oldkey said:


> ....intend to buy one or two weeks as the deals come up, hoping to beat the June 1 date if possible.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's comments.
> 
> ...





The time clock is ticking fast.  If you don't have things wrapped up within the next couple of weeks then I doubt you can beat the June 1st deadline.

Not only do you have to get this thru ROFR (which could run up to 30 days), but you have to get the deeds recorded by the last business day of May.

Suggestion:  Be sure to use a closing agent who deals with Marriott electronically in order to speed the ROFR process.

And, hope everything works out!


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## timeos2 (Apr 9, 2010)

*See - a problem even when it isn't used*



TheTimeTraveler said:


> The time clock is ticking fast.  If you don't have things wrapped up within the next couple of weeks then I doubt you can beat the June 1st deadline.
> 
> Not only do you have to get this thru ROFR (which could run up to 30 days), but you have to get the deeds recorded by the last business day of May.
> 
> ...



Which goes to show ROFR is a pain and a problem even if it isn't invoked. Avoid properties that have it - most don't and they can be as good or better than those that do. Why add yet another potential problem to a process (timeshare ownership) already rich with negatives and shaky positives?


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## oldkey (Apr 9, 2010)

*Great thoughts....*

....any suggestions on closing agents that work with Marriott electronically? Are there other considerations that can speed up the process?


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## PerryM (Apr 9, 2010)

*Click....click..click...*



m61376 said:


> Regardless of any reservation gimmicks, *they still can only put into the new system whatever portion of each week is part of the new system.* If, for arguments sake, 50% of the owners remain choose not to turn in their deeded weeks (assuming that's the new system) and retain their current ownership. 50% of every week reservations can be used for points reservations and 50% for the current reservations. Thus, they can only give a reservation advantage to those opting into the new system, IF they choose to do that.
> 
> I think multiple levels of ownership and different booking priorities would create a reservation nightmare, and I don't think they will try to make the system so complex. Having two systems running concurrently is going to tax the reservation system as is and, while I may be proved wrong, I don't think they'll add yet another complication. The 13 month rule, while it does add some complexity, is pretty simplistic for the reservation agents, because it involves weeks being booked consecutively or concurrently.
> 
> If we are going to find it confusing, imagine the mess the reservation agents will have.



I'd imagine that EVERY hot week is going to be snapped up at the 13 months mark and the remainder at the 12 month mark.  E.g. at Summit Watch President's week (week 7) is just a Platinum week that everyone wants.  Marriott will get ALL of them - every last one of them.

How?  Exactly at 13 months to the nanosecond their computer system will dump 100 reservation requests into the usual system that we all use now - folks trying to do the same will click and click and click their mouse and that 2 minute wait are 100 reservations being processed.  Repeat this at 12 months and Marriott now has ALL, every last stinking one of the 200 villas reserved for their members.

Repeat this system wide and folks will flock to the new system.  Then at 12 months out their system will open for Platinum Points Owners to reserve anyone of the 200 Summit Watch villas for President's week.

Folks, you don't honestly think a timeshare company is going to play on a level playing field with you do you??????

P.S.

Forget renting your reservation anymore - Marriott is not going to allow you to compete with their rental program - hello II and RCI.....


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## csalter2 (Apr 9, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I'd imagine that EVERY hot week is going to be snapped up at the 13 months mark and the remainder at the 12 month mark.  E.g. at Summit Watch President's week (week 7) is just a Platinum week that everyone wants.  Marriott will get ALL of them - every last one of them.
> 
> How?  Exactly at 13 months to the nanosecond their computer system will dump 100 reservation requests into the usual system that we all use now - folks trying to do the same will click and click and click their mouse and that 2 minute wait are 100 reservations being processed.  Repeat this at 12 months and Marriott now has ALL, every last stinking one of the 200 villas reserved for their members.
> 
> ...




PerryM,

I don't share your pessimism. I have two reasons to feel differently. First, if that were the case, Marriott could do that now and no one could be able to get those reservations in the current system. I own at Ko' Olina. I used to be paranoid that I would not be able to get a reservation in Hawaii during the summer or spring break. I used to try to do the midnight a week before thing, but then one summer I did not have that urgency because I wasn't going to Hawaii. I noticed that I would have been able to get that summer Hawaii week nine months and even eight months out. It was the same for Easter week. I stop getting up early and it has never been a problem for me. What seems to fill up are a particular day to check in. It seems that many people want to check in on Saturdays. However, Fridays and Sundays are also available. So for a person who does not have multiple properties with Marriott, I don't see a problem with Marriott taking up all the prime weeks when they can do that right now. 

I also own with DRI. I do have a 13 month reservation window with resorts in my trust. I can make reservations very, very easily. However, I have not had the problem of making reservations after 10 months when I am able to during prime weeks. There was availability in the summer in Maui, Kauai and Oahu and the Big Island resorts within their system whenever I wanted it. They have a points system and I have had never had a problem.  In fact, with DRI if you make a reservation less than 60 days before your arrival, you use only half of your points. I have done this and it's a real bargain since I live a couple of hours from some of their resorts. 

DRI also has deeded week owners in their system that they inherited. Yes, they would like to get them to switch to points and in some locations have offered incentives for them to convert but they did not. Those deeded week owners are still able to rent out their units and they do.

There are a lot of people who are happy with a points system. Whatever Marriott decides to do we all may have to adjust. I personally will be looking to keep my deeded week at Ko Olina. I hope I will have some sort of preference or priority by doing that. With DRI I have access to more than double the resorts that I do with Marriott, but they are not all of the same quality of the Marriott's. DRI has been improving their resorts a great deal. I will be staying at Ko' Olina and DRI's Ka'anapali Beach Club this summer and will make some comparisons. 

My whole point is that I believe that you should be careful in your assumptions. If newbies read this thread they may believe all this stuff you are writing as gospel and become afraid unnecessarily. I have read your posts and you are usually pretty down on Marriott. Yes, I bought from the developer and if I knew then what I know now, perhaps I wouldn't have. However, I have used my points and have really benefitted from them with great trips to Europe and Asia. I did not have any problems doing that particularly when I think of how the US dollar compared to the yen and the Euro. I don't care what anyone says, I came out way, way ahead. I use my rewards card for all of my bills and can pull 10000 plus points per month with no problem and it costs me only about $75 for having the card for well over 100,000 points. When I don't use my TS and trade it for points, I don't have a problem with it. 

You seem to be very knowledgeable about the timeshare process. I will not claim to know more than you. I am sure whatever Marriott's new system will be, you will find advantages that will suit your needs and I hope you will share them with us all as you have certainly shared your skepticism and paranoia.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 9, 2010)

It could be that since the sales reps know very little that all is changing is Marriott is going to change how they tie MR point trading to weeks traded.

When you buy a week now you can trade it for x points every or every other year. Perhaps going forward they will somehow tie it to an index such as maintenance fees. This would require new training on how the system works and also the ability to sell this new option to people under contract of the old option.

Just throwing more speculation out there since no one, not even the sales reps, really knows what will happen.


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## PerryM (Apr 9, 2010)

*Perpetual Motion Machines for sale...*



csalter2 said:


> PerryM,
> 
> I don't share your pessimism. I have two reasons to feel differently. *First, if that were the case, Marriott could do that now and no one could be able to get those reservations in the current system*. I own at Ko' Olina. I used to be paranoid that I would not be able to get a reservation in Hawaii during the summer or spring break. I used to try to do the midnight a week before thing, but then one summer I did not have that urgency because I wasn't going to Hawaii. I noticed that I would have been able to get that summer Hawaii week nine months and even eight months out. It was the same for Easter week. I stop getting up early and it has never been a problem for me. What seems to fill up are a particular day to check in. It seems that many people want to check in on Saturdays. However, Fridays and Sundays are also available. So for a person who does not have multiple properties with Marriott, I don't see a problem with Marriott taking up all the prime weeks when they can do that right now.
> 
> ...



There isn't anything in it for Marriott under the current system.  The new system is another kettle of fish.

Marriott right now is into recycling other owners' units since they stopped building new resorts.  They need a source of cheaper resale units; the new exchange system will have that as a by-product.  Also they are completely changing the way they sell timeshares - from deeded weeks to a Point system based upon deeded weeks.

The Point based exchange system is going to be Marriotts primary sales tool once the exchange system is released - why?  Because they are selling access to your weeks which they don't have a penny invested in.

Marriott's sales pitch will be "Buy 50,000 Points and spend all the holidays in our resorts" - they will repeat that sales pitch hundreds of times a day.  They can and will sell the idea of buying enough Points to get a Christmas week in Maui followed by a New Year's week in Park City skiing.  They no longer need to actually have those weeks in their inventory - they can use yours as a sales gimmick.

Where they sell the units to get 50,000 Points and a Platinum membership level makes little difference to them - they are going to stop selling Gold and Silver weeks and simply sell New Year's and 4th of July weeks at their hottest resorts - thousands of times over.

Once you deposit your Platinum or Platinum Plus week into the new system they can use it in their sales pitch - they can't do that now.  I fully expect special check-in lines at the front desk for Platinum VIP owners too.

And the fuel to make this new sales engine work is your units you deposit into their system that you are going to pay for.  The salesreps will sell Points packages - 50,000 Platinum VIP level might cost $150k and you get 1st dibs at all the hottest holiday weeks, special check-in lines at all Marriotts, and Noon check-out and 2 PM check-in - way ahead of non VIP owners.  Where those weeks are sold mean little to anyone any more - what a deal.

This is better than a perpetual motion machine - this one actually makes a huge profit.

P.S.
Point systems are very flexible and easily abused by the developer - Marriott will be no exception especially when they have nothing invested in the Points that they will dangle in front of Ma and Pa at the sales gallery.

Expect the salesreps to convert their Marriotts and pull up their own accounts in front of Ma and Pa - "Lookie here Ma and Pa - I'm spending New Years week in Maui at the new towers there - you can do the same exact thing".

Who knows how many Points they will get as an employee to deposit their February Silver weeks in Branson.  Marriott can make any set of rules they want.


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## Cobra1950 (Apr 10, 2010)

As many of you I am very concerned about all the upcoming rumors about Marriott's plans.  Frankly in the current mode in this country of a. Poor customer service is the accepted norm and b. Lying to the American individual is an accepted norm for goverment and business since it is assumed we are too stupid to react, I expect the worst. It is the quickest way for them to make money and not to resume timeshare building.
    Unless what Marriott offers is the legal equivalent to fee simple ownership, then it is safe to assume whatever tempting offer is laid out to give up individual ownership rights initially will suffer the same points value erosion that Marriott and every other hotel chain and airline has done in the last few years. 
     Anyone wanting a quick, cheap week suggest the few remaining Bronze weeks at Summittwatch, they were selling for $1500 a while back and might even close in time to be grandfathered.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi...
points can be a slippery slope....

under a points MVCI can control BOTH sales and inventory (for internal trading).  Under the current system, there is a "checks and balances" to the system as MVCI controls sales and II controls exchange inventory (after deposits by owners).  MVCI wants to maximize sales and II wants to maximize exchanges (to collect fees).

Under a system where sales and inventory are unilaterally controlled it is ripe for concern.

Who is to guarantee that owner inventory is not made available to "renters" at a high nightly rate at the "hot " properties

Point "creep" can occur.  Your home unit (either deeded or RTU) might be worth 100 points (which you get yearly, however the number of points needed for exchanges into other resorts might increase) In other words MVCI  (or other developer) may raise the number of points necessary to exchange into your resort to 125 (for exchangers) while still only giving you 100.  I believe that DVC over time raises the point value needed to stay at resorts (not 100% sure on this

The only real carrot MVCI has for owners to convert to points is the "availability" of internal exchanges.  Each owner can decline and occupy home resort or use II for 2500 other non MVCI resorts...


Points can have many positive points as well.  It provides the Platinum High value owners an opportunity to get value in trades as well.  In the II (weeks currency system) a week is a week is a week, thus most plat plus/fixed week owners can only trade down.  With points perhaps a plat or plat plusowner can get 10-14 days in a "lesser" resort or season.  

Points can provide marked flexibility for short stays as well.  A plat week owner can perhaps do two 4-5 day stays at a lesser resort.

I have had a great MVCI experience (6 years) and I am hopeful (cautiously optimistic) that the new system will provide benefits and owner friendliness.  I think we need to see it. Hopefully, it will provide satisfaction to all.


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## PerryM (Apr 11, 2010)

*Pounding sand at Beach Place Towers...*

With Marriott's wonderful new sales gimmick//////////Internal Exchange System, how will the HOA at Beach Place Towers collect the parking fees that they now confiscate from II exchangers?  If Marriott opens the exchange system to non-Marriott owners, like millions of folks who collect MRPs, then someone must pay that parking fee at BPT if a reservation is made by a non BPT owner.

If I'm right, the HOA will have to be notified by Marriott and a way to pay the HOA must be worked out - or Marriott will simply tell BPT to go pound sand.

All these little details.....

P.S.
Of course if folks can shift Points around from account to account how does BPT keep track of what Points came from BPT owners either in the BPT owner's account or someone who got Points from the BPT owner.

Maybe Marriott will take the Toyota way of dealing with run away problems - just ignore them until things come to a crashing halt.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 11, 2010)

PerryM said:


> With Marriott's wonderful new sales gimmick//////////Internal Exchange System, how will the HOA at Beach Place Towers collect the parking fees that they now confiscate from II exchangers?  If Marriott opens the exchange system to non-Marriott owners, like millions of folks who collect MRPs, then someone must pay that parking fee at BPT if a reservation is made by a non BPT owner.
> 
> If I'm right, the HOA will have to be notified by Marriott and a way to pay the HOA must be worked out - or Marriott will simply tell BPT to go pound sand.
> 
> All these little details.....



BPT's is, IMHO, one of the better examples of a what if arguement for a trust based ownership system. If the trust owns at least 30% of the inventory, then can effectively control the HOA/BOD unless owners can find a way to band together and all vote the same way. That's an almost imposible task since managment controls the mailing lists. 

If a trust has enough votes and, if the trust is influenced by the developer then the developer has control. There wouldn't have been any options about what sort of refurbishments were going to get done. Marriott would do what it wanted using it's prefered contractors at a price Marriott sets. 

As to the parking fee's at BPT, if Marriott gains enough trust based owners there and if they can control the board and if they don't want parking fee's, there won't be any parking fee's. BPT's owners will end up sucking up the loss of those fee's with higher MF's. 

There is a lot of room for abuse in a trust based ownership if one believes that owners can control the HOA/BOD. The fact remains with most resorts, the HOA/BOD is never under control by the owners. The developer always maintains control. All one has to do is look to Westgate to see the truth in that statement. 

So it comes down to this. Do you trust Marriott to make the right decisions to provide you with a product you want at a price you feel is affordable? Right now I'd have to answer yes to that question. I'm relatively certain most DVC owners feel the same way about Disney. Of course, DVC isn't known for low MF's, but then again, neither is Marriott. 

Yes this is a sales tool but, the sales tool has to be owner friendly enough that people will want to be a part of it. There has been much rumor and speculation about this new system. We'll have to wait a couple of more months to see what it's really like. Trust based or just a points based system? Home resort advantage or no home resort advantage? How will the old system be affected? What about owners who don't want to join? How much will it cost to join? How will resale owners be affected? All we can really do is guess as to the answers to these questions. I think we've pretty much settled on this being a trust based ownership but, Marriott could surprise us. At least we've moved away from the idea that it will mimick the AP program, which IMHO would be a disaster for American and European based ownership.


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## PerryM (Apr 11, 2010)

*Coin toss...*



dougp26364 said:


> BPT's is, IMHO, one of the better examples of a what if arguement for a trust based ownership system. If the trust owns at least 30% of the inventory, then can effectively control the HOA/BOD unless owners can find a way to band together and all vote the same way. That's an almost imposible task since managment controls the mailing lists.
> 
> If a trust has enough votes and, if the trust is influenced by the developer then the developer has control. There wouldn't have been any options about what sort of refurbishments were going to get done. Marriott would do what it wanted using it's prefered contractors at a price Marriott sets.
> 
> ...



The price of a timeshare has little to do with reality - timeshare developers used to charge $40,000 for a week/unit that cost them $10,000 to acquire - these are my findings from years of research.  That $30,000/week, gross profit, has a lot of fat in it; selling a timeshare is very hard work.

Additionally, 80% of all timeshares are/were financed (ARDA) and at 14.9% Marriott got a healthy finders fee; then add in all the outrageous MFs.

*So put me down as someone who believes that timeshare prices are hyper-inflated and could easily be cut in half with the timeshare industry making a fine profit for their investors.*

I've told the story many times here of my adventures in the rare-coin market of 25 years ago - just as computers and BBS were coming on line.  The local coin shops all bought coins from each other and prices always went up every week - they communicated with each other over teletype units.  That all came crashing to a halt when the internet, PCs, and eBay hit.  Prices imploded to 1/10 of what they were and it took 15 years to recover to break even.  (I held on to all of ours and liquidated them at a BE/profit with inflation thrown in; still have many MS-67 Morgan Silver Dollars that are now worth all the troubles I've been through)

That same controlled market is created by the timeshare developers - "Friday the prices go up" has tapered off but the actual real estate debacle has yet to be felt in timeshares - that bubble has yet to burst.


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## GregT (Apr 11, 2010)

PerryM said:


> *So put me down as someone who believes that timeshare prices are hyper-inflated and could easily be cut in half with the timeshare industry making a fine profit for their investors.*
> 
> ...........
> 
> That same controlled market is created by the timeshare developers - "Friday the prices go up" has tapered off but the actual real estate debacle has yet to be felt in timeshares - that bubble has yet to burst.



Perry,

I don't agree at all that the real estate debacle has yet to be felt in timeshares.  I think the availability of the internet has brought true market pricing (in the resale market) to timeshares.  I *would *agree that retail pricing doesn't reflect the market, but you could argue that with most upscale luxury products sold only at retail.  Timeshares, especially at retail, are clearly a luxury item.  

I believe eBay does a fabulous job of reconciling the value for a seller trying to unload their timeshare and those of us that willing to pay an up-front payment for access.  Redweek also reconciles the value for the more patient seller.   

All timeshare pricing is down from 12-24-36 months ago, along with many asset classes, and the market does appear to be sustaining some resale value for the premier timeshare products (HGVC, Marriott, Starwood).   The curtain has been pulled back for the mid-tier timeshare products, and it appears value exists in the stability of the underlying system in addition to the quality of the units.

It's extremely interesting to see the discrepancy in resale pricing between HGVC (which does not appear to game its owners) and Starwood (which is engaging in tactics that the owners despise).  To me this demonstrates the value of a stable system.  It will be extremely unfortunate if Marriott moves from the former category into the latter.

Wyndham is another example of a timeshare company that destroyed the goodwill of its existing owners -- but to my benefit.  I bought the points package wanted, at the lowest MF property in the system, for $1.   

I would expect that Marriott's new system (if any) isn't going to be punitive to resale owners -- they just have to pay more to access the system.  I could easily envision a system where a post-June resale purchase of a Branson deeded property (that passes ROFR because its not desired for Marriott's trust) could still be entered into the points system -- at a higher price than a retail Branson purchaser.  That Branson platinum probably gets you 5 days in Ko Olina versus the 7 days in Branson.   

But that's a system that we can study and understand.    We may find that its better for us to buy that resale platinum and paying the conversion fee to enter the points program (while keeping the properties were we really want to stay).


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## m61376 (Apr 11, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I think we've pretty much settled on this being a trust based ownership but, Marriott could surprise us. At least we've moved away from the idea that it will mimick the AP program, which IMHO would be a disaster for American and European based ownership.



We have? All the rumored posts lend credence to a program very similar to the AP program, which is a trust based ownership model. Have I missed something that indicates it will be any different?

I do agree that the AP program would not be a desirable product, but I fear that's something akin to that is exactly what is forthcoming.


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## m61376 (Apr 11, 2010)

GregT said:


> Perry,
> 
> I don't agree at all that the real estate debacle has yet to be felt in timeshares.  I think the availability of the internet has brought true market pricing (in the resale market) to timeshares.  I *would *agree that retail pricing doesn't reflect the market, but you could argue that with most upscale luxury products sold only at retail.  Timeshares, especially at retail, are clearly a luxury item.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of what you've said- and IF that Branson Plat. gets you 5 days in a 2BR at ko'Olina I could see a lot of merit to the new trading system. But when you look at the huge point disparities that Marriott set up in the AP program, it is more likely that that Plat. 2BR Branson would get you closer to 5 days in a 1BR at Ko'Olina. IF that is the case, I foresee a lot of unhappy campers (and just so you know, I am not trying to convey a doom and gloom figment of my imagination scenario- a Platinum 2BR Phuket owner could only get a week in a 1BR at Ko'Olina under the AP program point allocations, so a Plat. Branson owner only getting 5 days in a 1BR in exchange for their 2BR is a realistic scenario IF valuations are similar to what they are in the AP program).

And, even those who are happy today with their valuations- will they be happy tomorrow? Will Marriott use artificially inflated valuations to sell more popular locations (making it impossible even for premium week owners of today to exchange into tomorrow's properties in a like for like basis)? Of course, IF they simply sell points, that's less of an issue I guess, although point devaluation is a real concern.


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## csalter2 (Apr 11, 2010)

*Points Valuation's Won't Change Quickly*



m61376 said:


> I agree with most of what you've said- and IF that Branson Plat. gets you 5 days in a 2BR at ko'Olina I could see a lot of merit to the new trading system. But when you look at the huge point disparities that Marriott set up in the AP program, it is more likely that that Plat. 2BR Branson would get you closer to 5 days in a 1BR at Ko'Olina. IF that is the case, I foresee a lot of unhappy campers (and just so you know, I am not trying to convey a doom and gloom figment of my imagination scenario- a Platinum 2BR Phuket owner could only get a week in a 1BR at Ko'Olina under the AP program point allocations, so a Plat. Branson owner only getting 5 days in a 1BR in exchange for their 2BR is a realistic scenario IF valuations are similar to what they are in the AP program).
> 
> And, even those who are happy today with their valuations- will they be happy tomorrow? Will Marriott use artificially inflated valuations to sell more popular locations (making it impossible even for premium week owners of today to exchange into tomorrow's properties in a like for like basis)? Of course, IF they simply sell points, that's less of an issue I guess, although point devaluation is a real concern.



Point Valuation should be a real concern. I just can't see giving my Ko' Olina 2 bdrom up now and not knowing what it may be in points down the road. My experience with DRI has shown me that. DRI has not made any real changes to the points assigned to units. However, when they made significant changes to the structure of the units and made them nicer than what Sunterra had, the points for those rooms increased and in some cases they increased significantly.  For example, significant changes were made to Sedona Summit's one and two bedroom suites. The older suites called the Mesa suites need the same amount of points as has been since I have been a part of DRI's The Club for the last 9 years. However, the renovated Sunset suites need 500 to 1,000 more points to occupy them. 

I don't see Marriott making changes to devalue points in the same manner that they did their rewards program. That would just not make sense.


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## PerryM (Apr 11, 2010)

*Accidents happen...*



m61376 said:


> I agree with most of what you've said- and *IF that Branson Plat. gets you 5 days in a 2BR at ko'Olina I could see a lot of merit to the new trading system*. But when you look at the huge point disparities that Marriott set up in the AP program, it is more likely that that Plat. 2BR Branson would get you closer to 5 days in a 1BR at Ko'Olina. IF that is the case, I foresee a lot of unhappy campers (and just so you know, I am not trying to convey a doom and gloom figment of my imagination scenario- a Platinum 2BR Phuket owner could only get a week in a 1BR at Ko'Olina under the AP program point allocations, so a Plat. Branson owner only getting 5 days in a 1BR in exchange for their 2BR is a realistic scenario IF valuations are similar to what they are in the AP program).
> 
> And, even those who are happy today with their valuations- will they be happy tomorrow? Will Marriott use artificially inflated valuations to sell more popular locations (making it impossible even for premium week owners of today to exchange into tomorrow's properties in a like for like basis)? Of course, IF they simply sell points, that's less of an issue I guess, although point devaluation is a real concern.



I highly doubt that Marriott will get into day-by-day reservations at any of their resorts - MRP conversion to Marriott hotels sure, but 7 day reservation is probably what they will be limited to - maybe the 3/4 day reservations at the best.

But I sure don't assume that there will be any sort of rhyme nor reason to what one unit relates to other units - this is strictly a sales tool and Marriott can easily relate 2 silver weeks at Branson to 1 week at Maui Ocean Club in a 2BR if it wants.

The focus will be to sell existing owners more timeshares - of course everyone will come up a few Points short of Maui - you will be pressured to buy a few more Points like buying Bronze weeks at Summit Watch.

Guys don't get confused - the new system is a sales tool and you will be required to pay money, in many ways, to use it.  If you happen to get an exchange why that's by accident.


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## kjd (Apr 11, 2010)

Aren't the names and addresses of deeded property owners a matter of public record and available from the county tax assessor/collectors offices?  If so, it should be easy for owners to communicate with other owners.

I know that our RE tax is included in the maintenance fees (California excluded) that we pay to MVCI, but I would be surprised if property owners names weren't a matter of public record.


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## Clark (Apr 11, 2010)

kjd said:


> Aren't the names and addresses of deeded property owners a matter of public record and available from the county tax assessor/collectors offices?  If so, it should be easy for owners to communicate with other owners.
> 
> I know that our RE tax is included in the maintenance fees (California excluded) that we pay to MVCI, but I would be surprised if property owners names weren't a matter of public record.



When I checked my own record for our Grande Ocean, I found Marriott's name registered on behalf of me. In other words, the owner's name is not readily available.


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## m61376 (Apr 11, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I highly doubt that Marriott will get into day-by-day reservations at any of their resorts - MRP conversion to Marriott hotels sure, but 7 day reservation is probably what they will be limited to - maybe the 3/4 day reservations at the best.
> 
> But I sure don't assume that there will be any sort of rhyme nor reason to what one unit relates to other units - this is strictly a sales tool and Marriott can easily relate 2 silver weeks at Branson to 1 week at Maui Ocean Club in a 2BR if it wants.
> 
> ...



But isn't the whole point of a points program the flexibility to book days rather than weeks of stay? And, that's exactly what they did with the AP program, so there is precedence for them creating a strictly points program with a daily reservation system.

I do agree that this will be manipulated as a sales tool, and since Marriott is the arbiter of valuation, etc., there is the realistic risk that future resorts (including those in the early stages of sales presently such as Marco, for ex.) may be unfairly weighted IF Marriott continues to sell individual resort ownerships rather than purely points. Starwood did just that, and owners of premium weeks (such as St. John and Harborside) found themselves unable to trade into weeks that others commonly accepted as perhaps being lesser value; over-valuing newer properties was simply a sales gimmick, and I can foresee Marriott following that same path. I hope I am wrong and they choose the high road.


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## PerryM (Apr 11, 2010)

*Swiss Cheese smells...*



m61376 said:


> *But isn't the whole point of a points program the flexibility to book days rather than weeks of stay?* And, that's exactly what they did with the AP program, so there is precedence for them creating a strictly points program with a daily reservation system.
> 
> I do agree that this will be manipulated as a sales tool, and since Marriott is the arbiter of valuation, etc., there is the realistic risk that future resorts (including those in the early stages of sales presently such as Marco, for ex.) may be unfairly weighted IF Marriott continues to sell individual resort ownerships rather than purely points. Starwood did just that, and owners of premium weeks (such as St. John and Harborside) found themselves unable to trade into weeks that others commonly accepted as perhaps being lesser value; over-valuing newer properties was simply a sales gimmick, and I can foresee Marriott following that same path. I hope I am wrong and they choose the high road.



I own WorldMark and love it - I routinely book 13 months in advance but they have a minimum stay of 7 days for Red season, the normal time I vacation.  I'd love to book just Friday and Saturday nights for WM resorts near us but the calendar would look like Swiss cheese.

Marriott has the problem of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, with some resorts Thursday check-ins and hiring maids to clean.  This would become very expensive to allow everyday check-in - just a guess.

Marriott, unlike WM, has 2 completely different systems involved with every villa - the existing system and the new scheme.  Throw in II exchanges and I bet that Marriott will stick with the normal check-in days and 7 day reservations.  I have no idea if they will handle 3/4 day reservations.

Since Marriott is going to assign Points on some "Super Secret" algorithm (Which is some fat-cat marketing guy) expect Points to change all the time.  WM has very strict rules about Points (Credits) and once assigned it is very hard to change them and the Point calendar must still total the same after Points are moved around.  Marriott has no restrictions here and will play fast and loose with Points.

It's going to be fun to look at the Maui Ocean Club Points calendar and see if 4th of July week has the same number of Points as the first week in November - they are now both Platinum.  My guess is that on day one they will be the same but Marriott will talk about "Redistributing Points to follow demand and supply"  the net result will be MORE Points needed in the calendar after they monkey around with it; it won't be the same.

Again, this is a sales tool designed to make more money for Marriott at your expense - and I do mean expen$e.


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## GaryDouglas (Apr 12, 2010)

*Moc/mmo Rofr*



iconnections said:


> I see them starting to do the ROFR too at places where they need inventory and change the deed to the new system.


 
Maybe in time, but Marriott let (2) MOC/MMO 1 BR / 2 BR OV EY units go by for a phenominal $3264.50 each in Mid March, so they aren't converting yet...


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