# What is the draw of DVC?



## Bill927 (Mar 17, 2007)

We just returned from spending a week at Orlando and visiting the four theme parks at Disney World.  At every corner, there was a stand selling DVC timeshares.   Other than they are "on property", what is the draw?  Are there special perks or activities at the DVC properties themselves?   I put the "on property" in quotes, because it appeared to us that you have to take a bus or a monorail or a boat to get from the DVC properties to the various theme parks.  

We stayed at the Fountains, which is a beautiful resort with a really gorgeous indoor/outdoor pool.  The condos were very large and very nice.  It took us about 12 minutes to get from the Fountains to Epcot or the Magic Kingdom.  We got there early, so we normally just had a short 2 minute walk from our car to the gate.  Grabbing a monorail between Epcot and Disney took about 20 minutes (you have to transfer monorails).  I don't really see a big time difference in travel time to the theme parks between DVC and a close timeshare.  

Also, one other question: we saw several people each day wearing an "Ultimate Fastpass".  It was a gray plastic card that allowed them instant access to the Fastpass line.  Anyone know the story with this perk?


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 17, 2007)

*Oh my - the Disney people will not like that*

The DVC experience is all about believing in the "magic" of Disney. If you buy into that then it is indeed special. If you simply step back and say what am I getting for almost twice the cost of most Orlando timeshares the answer is very little. The magic comes at a very steep price.

The units themselves are nice, not as nice as others, but usually smaller than the ones outside the gates. They do have extremely well done common areas with a Disney theme - but it's all sizzle on otherwise standard construction.  It is nice and puts you in the mood of a fun vacation but not worth the extra $$ to us. 

There are somethings you get as a long term renter at DVC - you can't buy it you can only rent it and promise to pay all fees for 40+ years. Most of it is available to outsiders as well for a few $$ - certainly less than the difference in the cost of the ownerships.  At one time they gave you park tickets but that really did have a value so it ended around 1997.  

There are those who simply won't think they have enjoyed enough Disney unless they are surrounded by it 24/7 in Orlando. DVC is perfect for them and compared to Disney Hotel rates can be a bargain.  But it's no deal compared to the even nicer resorts all around DVC that cost less and offer more in the way of features, unit size and a chance to be away from everything Disney for awhile.  We have found we don't do Disney at all anymore as Universal or just enjoying all the other attractions Orlando offers is more than enough and far less costly than Disney.

Not everyone would feel that way so decide what it is you will enjoy and don't let the "it must be Disney or you simply don't get it" voices make you think you're missing out if you aren't on the DVC side of the gates. And don't be afraid to buy DVC if thats what will make you happy just because some don't see the value in it either.  We did it for 5 years and then sold.  You aren't missing anything on the outside (or you can even be inside without paying Disney at the landlocked Wyndham Bonnet Creek which is an outside level resort that you have to be inside Disney to stay at) and you'll have a great time no matter where you choose to own.


----------



## kapish (Mar 18, 2007)

*Go on an II exchange and see it for yourself*

We spent a week at Disney's Old Key West resort in February. It was very very nice. Way better than staying in a condo outside WDW. OKW is the first DVC property and has larger units than the other properties.

Here are some of the pros and cons, assuming the majority of your time is spent on Disney activities, within Walt Disney World: 

*Pros: *

Disney's Magical Express:
Put the special DME tag on your luggage when you check at your origin. Bags will arrive in your unit about 3 hours after you land at MCO.
DME  takes you from MCO to your resort, so you don't have to hassle for a rental car and do not have to spend time on baggage claim.
When checking out and going to the airport, you can use DME. If you are flying on "participating" airlines, your bags can be checked at the resort and the resort's concierge will issue boarding passes.

Transportation to Disney parks and other Disney destinations:
Buses to Downtown Disney and all the theme parks pick you up every few minutes. These are direct buses, mostly, and they run until into the night.
Old Key West and Saratoga Springs resorts have a ferry that takes you to Downtown Disney.
Buses and ferry takes directly to the destinations. No need to walk far to the park from your car...

Extended Magic hours at various parks for folks staying at Disney resorts.
Animal Kingdom has extended evening hours one day of the week for Disney guests. We loved it - because we got to watch the Lion King show without having to fight with all the other guests at the Animal Kingdom.
Similarly, the Magic Kingdom, Epcot etc. also have these extended hours.

Disney's Dining Plan is available to those who are staying at Disney properties.
Also, make use of the DVC member phone number to reserve dining options at all the Disney restaurants.
No need to rent a car.
*Cons: 
*
If you are dependent on Disney Transportation, It may be difficult to get out to non-Disney attractions/restaurants/destinations.
$95 mandatory fee has to be paid if you are exchanging into a DVC property- even if you don't plan to take advantage of Disney Dining Plan, Disney's Magical Express etc.
Restaruants, grocery stores etc. within WDW are much more expensive than outside WDW.
*Would I do it again? *Yes!! If I plan to spend 3 or more days at WDW then I would consider staying in a DVC unit. 

*Would I buy DVC? *No. Too expensive. Not Disney fans. Don't plan to go to WDW every year. Although DVC units are excellent traders, it may not be economical to trade an expensive DVC unit for a non-DVC unit.


----------



## BevL (Mar 18, 2007)

I've not stayed in a Disney property and don't really see the magic of Orlando - been there once and will only go again when my grandchild is old enough to visit.  I've read extensively about those who live for staying "on property" and think they must be hard core Disneyholics.  I don't mean that in a bad way, but there are those that will definitely take a smaller unit on site than a larger one off.  I don't get it, but that's me.


----------



## BevL (Mar 18, 2007)

I've not stayed in a Disney property and don't really see the magic of Orlando - been there once and will only go again when my grandchild is old enough to visit.  I've read reasonably extensively about those who live for staying "on property" and think they must be hard core Disneyholics.  I don't mean that in a bad way, but there are those that will definitely take a smaller unit on site than a larger one off.  And as for transportation issues, I can't imagine going to Orlando for a week with no car.  But then I don't want to "do Disney" for seven days in a row.

I love beach holidays, some people like to ski - makes for an interesting world, doesn't it?


----------



## Transit (Mar 18, 2007)

There is so much more outside the Disney gates in Orlando that to me staying on property is an inconvenance.I'm not trying to take anything from DVC as being a great experiance but once you've been there done that there is a lot more to do in Orlando besides Disney.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 18, 2007)

Answer is ----> M-I-C-K-E-Y.......M-O-U-S-E.....sing it!


----------



## KenK (Mar 18, 2007)

Steamboat Bill musta been an Annette fan !   

http://www.annettefunicello.net


----------



## Carl D (Mar 18, 2007)

There are tangible, dollar benefits to staying on site. I think kapish hit those pretty well in his post.
I would be lying to you if I said those tangible, financial benefits make DVC a cost effectictive timeshare when compared to off site properties.

It is a cost effective way to stay on site at deluxe properties. If you would otherwise stay at the Boardwalk Inn, Beach Club, Wilderness Lodge and so forth, DVC is a money saver.

To tie into the Four Seasons thread, DVC/Disney Resorts are not about who has the shiniest marble floors, or the softest leather couch.
They are about theming. They transport you to another place and time. 
Visit the Wilderness Lodge, or the Animal Kingdom Lodge, and you will see what I'm talking about.
One visit will equal 1000 posts.

I like the intangibles when I stay on property. Just the feeling our family gets is worth the extra cost in my opinion.

I love this proverb, but I didn't write it-

"Those who have to ask will never understand, and those who understand will never have to ask."


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 18, 2007)

Carl D said:


> I like the intangibles when I stay on property. Just the feeling our family gets is worth the extra cost in my opinion.
> 
> I love this proverb, but I didn't write it-
> 
> "Those who have to ask will never understand, and those who understand will have to ask."



I 100% agree (for now because I have kids) and I love parking my car and not driving while on vacation.


----------



## Carl D (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for quoting me, Bill. I saw that I left a word out of the proverb that changes the meaning!


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 18, 2007)

*The real question*

Carl and Bill - The same quote can be applied equally to the question "Why would anyone stay off Disney property rather than at a Disney resort?".


----------



## nursekim (Mar 18, 2007)

Bill927 said:


> We just returned from spending a week at Orlando and visiting the four theme parks at Disney World.  At every corner, there was a stand selling DVC timeshares.   Other than they are "on property", what is the draw?  Are there special perks or activities at the DVC properties themselves?   I put the "on property" in quotes, because it appeared to us that you have to take a bus or a monorail or a boat to get from the DVC properties to the various theme parks.


You take bus/boat/monorail transportation to every place in WDW.  There is no "in the park" hotel.
DVC members have discounts to Annual Passes.  If you check out the disboards, they have lots of info on DVC perks.



Bill927 said:


> We stayed at the Fountains, which is a beautiful resort with a really gorgeous indoor/outdoor pool.  The condos were very large and very nice.  It took us about 12 minutes to get from the Fountains to Epcot or the Magic Kingdom.  We got there early, so we normally just had a short 2 minute walk from our car to the gate.  Grabbing a monorail between Epcot and Disney took about 20 minutes (you have to transfer monorails).  I don't really see a big time difference in travel time to the theme parks between DVC and a close timeshare.


When you stay on property, including DVC, you do not have to pay for parking.  You were smart to get there early.



Bill927 said:


> Also, one other question: we saw several people each day wearing an "Ultimate Fastpass".  It was a gray plastic card that allowed them instant access to the Fastpass line.  Anyone know the story with this perk?


This is part of the Year of Million Dreams promo.  You have to be in the right place at the right time to win a prize.  In Oct/Nov last year, we all got Dream Fastpasses in Animal Kingdom while in the queue from Primeval Whirl and Pins and lanyards at the Carousel in Magic Kingdom.

I was very interested in owning DVC.  Our Oct/Nov trip was my 9th, 8th since '98 (I'm beginning to lose cont).  When you love Disney, you love Disney.  But for me the $$ didn't make sense no matter how much I wanted it to.  So I bought BlueGreen!    But that doesn't mean we won't stop going to WDW.  We will still probably go every year.  We are renting points to stay at the Villas at Wilderness Lodge to "Try out" DVC.  And depending on how we like it, we might rent points for our trip or just stay at the value/mod resorts, or try to trade with BG!


----------



## Denise L (Mar 18, 2007)

With young children, being on-site is worth every penny of our DVC points. We take DME, don't rent a car, and have our groceries delivered. The kids love the buses and we feel like we can take our time and enjoy our stay. We know that we will be back, so we aren't rushing around to see everything.

If you are planning to stay on-site, then DVC offers a lot more space for a much better price than most of the Disney resorts. And as far as I know, it's one of the few timeshare systems that is retaining its value (Disney has an aggressive ROFR policy that keeps prices high).


----------



## Bill927 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Conclusion:*

I read Kapish's post and had a couple of questions and comments:

*Pros: *

[*]Disney's Magical Express:

Does the Disney Magical Express cost extra (beyond the $95 exchange fee)?  Do you still use this if you plan to rent a car? 


Transportation to Disney parks and other Disney destinations:

I don't really see this as a perk because I pointed out, you can probably beat a DVC member getting to the front gate by driving a car.  Once you are there, all of the transportation system modes (buses, monorails, boats) are available to everyone, not just DVC members. 


Extended Magic hours at various parks for folks staying at Disney resorts.

This seems to be the main perk that you get as a DVC member.


Disney's Dining Plan is available to those who are staying at Disney properties.
From what I can tell from several posts about the Disney Meal Plan, is that compared to eating at Disney restaurants for every meal, it may or may not be a bargain.  Compared with eating in the condo or eating outside of the WDW, it is a money loser.   To me, one of the main reasons of getting a t/s is being able to eat some meals in my condo.  Eating in restaurants 3 times per day gets old and is expensive. Make those Disney restaurants and that goes from expensive to extremely expensive.  We spent almost $100 for hamburgers, salads, and a shakes for 4 people at the Sci-Fi restaurant.  


Also, make use of the DVC member phone number to reserve dining options at all the Disney restaurants.
We made reservations in 4 restaurants (Coral Reef, Tony's, Sci Fi, and Rainforest Cafe) a week in advance without any problems.


No need to rent a car.
From a hassle point of view, this maybe a perk, but not having a car traps you at Disney.  I would go out on limb and speculate that even staying at Disney, renting a car would pay for itself several times over in both money on groceries and restaurants as well as freedom to do things outside of the park.  We went to the Astros/Yankees game last Friday and had a GREAT time.  No car - no game.

I thought that perhaps the ultimate fastpass that I mentioned in my first post was part of DVC.  Jumping to the front of the line would be far and away the best perk that WDW could offer.


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 18, 2007)

*The day is approaching - don't get caught*



Denise L said:


> If you are planning to stay on-site, then DVC offers a lot more space for a much better price than most of the Disney resorts. And as far as I know, it's one of the few timeshare systems that is retaining its value (Disney has an aggressive ROFR policy that keeps prices high).



Ah, my most detested argument for purchasing DVC despite having benefited from it during my dabble with DVC.  The artificial propping up of resale prices on DVC points is truly magic and an extremely poor reason to purchase. All too often I hear people say they bought DVC because "it can be resold near, at or even higher" than retail. But that is a misconception. DVC has chosen to prop up those prices (in the reverse and, of the two, much more purchaser friendly of Wyndhams choice to devalue resales) while they continue to sell RTU from the same vintage. But as the RTU period gets closer to its end date (the date the value is zero as it goes back to DVC and the long term lease holder gets nothing except a full bill for that final year of use rights) they know they can't continue to prop up the value. So sometime - for the earliest of the RTU resorts it maybe soon - they will stop the ROFR and let the market decide the true value. I don't doubt that it will still be reasonable, after all this is DVC and people want to own there and visit there, but it will be much closer to the values of off site timeshares as some of the highest annual fees in the industry come along with that RTU. And as more time goes by and the years left grow short the value will dip to basically zero as the continuing high fees will be a big drawback. People will just want it for the few years left and won't pay much to get that plus the fees due.  So buying because you think it is almost unique in holding its value is a dangerous assumption. There are plenty of reasons already stated that can make DVC a value for those that treasure the experience but as an "investment" or thinking that you can always get out before the price free fall is a big error in judgment.  Don't be fooled by the resale value argument.


----------



## Denise L (Mar 18, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> Don't be fooled by the resale value argument.



John, point well taken. Apologies to the OP for making it seem like you would make money or get your money back on a DVC purchase.  That definitely isn't a good reason to buy a timeshare.  We enjoy our time at Disney, it's convenient to be on-site, and we know that we can book at 11 months out. Renting points from an owner will cost us twice our annual dues, and we prefer to have control over our reservation. 

However, if someone had bought early at any of the resorts, and he/she decided to sell now, he/she would definitely get the initial purchase dollars back (assuming it was a cash deal and not financed). Those who bought BCV in the mid-$70/pt can sell for at least $90/pt now.  With Animal Kingdom Villas in pre-sales now with its full 50-year RTU, many are buying at $93/pt and are anticipating resale prices to remain fairly high for years to come.

Anyhow, never buy a timeshare as a financial investment. If you want to stay at a DVC and try it out, rent through Disney ($$$$), rent from an owner ($$), try an II trade, or do a private exchange. If you love it, it will be obvious what the draw is.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 18, 2007)

I also agree that you should NOT buy DVC as an investment....however there has NEVER been a time since 1991 (the start of DVC) where someone bought directly from Disney and enjoyed their purchase for 3-5 years and then sold for a LOSS.

I think DVC is unique in the timeshare industry to have over 100,000 families buy a timeshare and NOT loose money (if you keep it 3-5 years).

Of course, anyone that bought and sold in 1-3 years, may lose 15%...but this is a much less loss than all the other timeshare horror stories where people immediatly lose 50% or more the day they walk out of the sales office.


----------



## kitkatRN (Mar 18, 2007)

Our family has staid both on and off property and I'm one of those strange people who fall for the Disney Magic. I love the area near the Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas. We rent a surrey bike every year we go around 9pm with our kids. We usually travel in June and have wonderful balmy nights. As we ride around the lake on our bike the fireworks begin to go off at Epcot. The picture will be in my head forever--Memories--PRICELESS.
That being said I feel DVC is just too expensive for us. I love our Marriott Grande Vista. I have also been able to trade into DVC--it just takes time and checking often for your trades. My kids are all about the pool! Most of the Disney properties have fabulously themed pools with waterslides Esp. The Beach Club Villas. I don't think Disney is just about the parks--it's about dining and other activities as well. I have fun just planning our menu and character meals.
So if you think I'm a nut so be it. I believe in MAGIC!
Kat


----------



## elaine (Mar 18, 2007)

*if I had to have DVC, I would buy and plan to resale in 5 years and feel pretty safe*

obviously, you buy one that has 20 or 25 years on it---use it for 5-7 years or so of magic and sell it---your downside is pretty low, I think.  If I wasn't so cheap and didn't have parent's weeks to trade and use for "outside disney" resorts, then I would have probably joined the mouse---esp. since the resale DOES appear to be holding up OK--but I would realize that I needed to dump it with at least 15 years left on it.


----------



## barndweller (Mar 18, 2007)

We made the trek to Disneyworld fom Ca. last year & exchanged into Boardwalk Villas. It was only our 2nd trip to Florida since 1987. We loved using Magic Express & not having to rent a car. The total immersion is part of the experience. We had no intention of trying to see or do anything other than Disney so it was very convenient & a really great exchange for us. On the other hand, OWNING DVC makes no sense for us at all.. When we eventually make the long trip back to Florida to see other great parts of the state, we certainly won't choose to stay at DVC. We are Disney lovers & agree that for the true experience of Disneyworld, staying on-site is great. Out here in Calif. we would never spend that kind of $$ to visit Disneyland. Heck, even the timeshares available nearby aren't all that much of a convenience. Our motels are a much better deal. Be that as it may, any future Disneyworld visits for us will definitely be exchanges on-site or not at all. Sorry to admit, but for this west coaster, Orlando is all about Disney, folks. We have plenty of great beaches & National & State Parks out west. If I'm going to all the trouble to go to Orlando it's for Disney and plenty of it.


----------



## kapish (Mar 18, 2007)

Bill927 said:


> I read Kapish's post and had a couple of questions and comments:
> 
> *Pros: *
> Disney's Magical Express:
> ...



The $95 exchange fee covers the DME. No additional $$ is necessary.

I did enjoy the Disney Transportation because 
 - I didn't  have to worry about finding directions
 - I didn't have to drive while I am on vacation
 - I didn't have to worry about where I parked the car...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Mar 19, 2007)

I love DVC, but I don't like the price.   So, I only go there about 10% of the time.  Always on II exchange, direct exchange or rental from other owner.

I don't own.  Almost did once, but I lost the deal to DVC on ROFR.

If you absolutely have to have Disney every time you go, then the best way to do it is....... NOT to own.  It's better to buy something else that is a better value and work your way into DVC through a combination of rentals and direct exchanges.

I have a confirmed reservation for later this year in a 3br Grand Villa and my total cost was less than $700.


----------



## Carl D (Mar 19, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> If you absolutely have to have Disney every time you go, then the best way to do it is....... NOT to own.  It's better to buy something else that is a better value and work your way into DVC through a combination of rentals and direct exchanges.


While I agree this is the most cost effective way to stay at a DVC Resort, it is by no means a guaranteed way to stay there.
Many folks can't be as flexible on dates as you, and must book airfare well in advance. You can probably jump in your car and drive a few hours.
I also choose to have DVC points at the resorts I want to stay at in order to have booking priority. If I want a grand villa at Animal Kingdom on December 25th, I will be able to get it.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 19, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> I have a confirmed reservation for later this year in a 3br Grand Villa and my total cost was less than $700.




99.99% of other timeshare people could NOT pull this off....congrats on your fantastic trade.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Mar 19, 2007)

Carl D said:


> While I agree this is the most cost effective way to stay at a DVC Resort, it is by no means a guaranteed way to stay there.
> Many folks can't be as flexible on dates as you, and must book airfare well in advance. You can probably jump in your car and drive a few hours.
> I also choose to have DVC points at the resorts I want to stay at in order to have booking priority. If I want a grand villa at Animal Kingdom on December 25th, I will be able to get it.



Sure it is.  In fact, this approach is more effective than owning because you have owners at all DVC resorts seeking to book reservations for you.  To achieve that by owning, you would have to own at every DVC resort.  That is a LOT of upfront capital.

Don't agree with me?  All I have to do is put an offer of $12-14/point on the Disboards and I'll have at least as good a chance at getting ANY DVC resort for any checkin date in any unit size for any number of days, than any single owner.

The return on invested capital is so poor on a DVC relative to the alternatives that it is pretty low bar to outperform it.  And, that is not factoring in the guaranteed loss of 100% of invested capital sometime in the future.  DVC owners have really been lulled to sleep on that fact of ownership.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Mar 19, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> 99.99% of other timeshare people could NOT pull this off....congrats on your fantastic trade.




It's true that most couldn't pull this trade at this cost.  But, with a little bit of training, ANY timesharer can learn how to get into ANY DVC for a cheaper overall cost than an owner.  That is because DVC is a poor investment alternative as a timeshare.  All you need to do is focus on those timeshares that are good investments and put your capital there instead.  Use the profits from those endeavors to rent a DVC from an owner.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 19, 2007)

BocaBum99 brings up an interesting point that even DVC owners CAN'T always get what they want unless they own in the exact building (1 of 8 choices) they want to stay in.

You can easily rent points on DIS for $10-13pp (for 11 months) and the prices go to $8-9pp (60 days out).

I own at SSR, but wanted to go to HHI the first week in April 2007. I decided that I wanted to book at the 11 month window (must be a HHI owner) rather than the 7 month window (like the 7 other building owners)...so I rented poitns from a HHI owner (even thought I have 650 SSR points)...crazy!

However, I was able to rent my SSR points for the same price and it was a wash, but I got the 11 month reservation. When I called DVC at the 7month window just to check inventory..they were sold out for the week I wanted.

This is a hassle, and I am a HUGE DVC supporter. 

Thus, you should only buy DVC under the following:
1. You must love Disney
2. You will NOT finance the DVC purchase
3. You don't want the uncertanity of II trading from a cheaper TS
4. You don't want to rent from DIS
5. You will buy where you want to stay

I am NOT too concerned with the RTU expiration date....especially if you own SSR or AKL.


----------



## Transit (Mar 19, 2007)

kapish said:


> The $95 exchange fee covers the DME. No additional $$ is necessary.
> 
> I did enjoy the Disney Transportation because
> - I didn't  have to worry about finding directions
> ...



DVC is a nice way to go but don't lock yourself into the house of mouse.You would be doing yourself a disservice. Disney may be the main attraction but outside the gates there is so much to see and do.Parking at Disney and never leaving would be like going to Vegas and never leaving the strip or going to NYC and only seeing Times Square.Disney's theme is great but there are plenty of interests in the area.


----------



## disneydor (Mar 19, 2007)

kitkatRN said:


> Our family has staid both on and off property and I'm one of those strange people who fall for the Disney Magic. I love the area near the Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas. We rent a surrey bike every year we go around 9pm with our kids. We usually travel in June and have wonderful balmy nights. As we ride around the lake on our bike the fireworks begin to go off at Epcot. The picture will be in my head forever--Memories--PRICELESS.
> That being said I feel DVC is just too expensive for us. I love our Marriott Grande Vista. I have also been able to trade into DVC--it just takes time and checking often for your trades. My kids are all about the pool! Most of the Disney properties have fabulously themed pools with waterslides Esp. The Beach Club Villas. I don't think Disney is just about the parks--it's about dining and other activities as well. I have fun just planning our menu and character meals.
> So if you think I'm a nut so be it. I believe in MAGIC!
> Kat




Were you able to trade your Grande Vista and what time of year did you go?


----------



## BocaBum99 (Mar 19, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> However, I was able to rent my SSR points for the same price and it was a wash, but I got the 11 month reservation. When I called DVC at the 7month window just to check inventory..they were sold out for the week I wanted.



Exactly my point.  Now, what if you didn't own SSR, but you owned something else that was a GREAT renter for a cheap MF and low upfront capital?  That investment would have been better than your SSR and you would have achieved the same HHI reservation that you couldn't get by being an SSR owner.

I'll suggest a different rule of thumb for buying DVC.  Only buy DVC if

a) You love Disney and can't live without it.
b) You plan to use it every year.
c) You don't care about the money, this is a luxury item.
d) You can't figure out how to get into DVC for cheaper when you want to go.  Or you don't want the hassle.

or

You find a way to beat ROFR and you buy for a couple of thousand below market value, whatever that is.


----------



## Carl D (Mar 19, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Sure it is.  In fact, this approach is more effective than owning because you have owners at all DVC resorts seeking to book reservations for you.  To achieve that by owning, you would have to own at every DVC resort.  That is a LOT of upfront capital.


Not true.
First, if you want one particular resort, it doesn't do any good having people with other home resort points looking for you.

Second, not every renter would be able to do this, even if that was their home resort. This would depend on how many points they have left in their use year, what use year they have, and what their borowing status is. (What I'm really trying to say here is that not every renter may have enough points available to book a grand villa during Christmas)

Third, that renter would have to be willing to wake up and call Member Services precisely at opening each and every day, exactly 11 months ahead of your desired reservation. The Member may say they will do that, but actually doing that is a different story. 
Want a grand villa at Boardwalk on Christmas? That's what it would take.

On the other hand, an owner can do that easily enough.




> Don't agree with me?  All I have to do is put an offer of $12-14/point on the Disboards and I'll have at least as good a chance at getting ANY DVC resort for any checkin date in any unit size for any number of days, than any single owner.


Simply not true. See above explanation.

Besides, at an average price of $13/point, you will eventually spend more money renting than it would cost to purchase.


----------



## pvbooster (Mar 23, 2007)

Hi Denise L,
Just an update, I just received my Animal Kingdom village packet and now they are advertising them for $104/pt.
Sue


----------



## Lisa P (Mar 24, 2007)

> ...wake up and call Member Services precisely at opening each and every day, exactly 11 months ahead of your desired reservation....  Want a grand villa at Boardwalk on Christmas? That's what it would take.


I would consider this a negative to DVC.  Not that we particularly cared about getting the exorbitantly expensive 3BRs when we were DVC members.  But the whole thing of having to call every single day, at precisely 8am EST, to book a reservation, one day at a time (and not knowing until the end of the reservation span whether we were able to get it all or not) - tiresome.  With the added flexibility of the DVC points program, there's a trade-off.  It's costlier and it can require MORE effort under special circumstances (such as a 3BR in popular time periods).  Since some DVC resorts don't offer 3BRs, it's not only non-members who would need to rely on others to go through these hoops for them in order to stay in a 3BR.  Many DVC members are limited by this home-resort issue too.  Again, if you don't care about 3BRs in popular seasons, it's a non-issue.



> Besides, at an average price of $13/point, you will eventually spend more money renting than it would cost to purchase.


Only if you are renting frequently.  For people who would only go every 3, 4 years or less, it may be better to rent - certainly cheaper upfront.

There are many different ways to skin a mouse... er, cat.


----------



## Carl D (Mar 27, 2007)

Lisa P said:


> I would consider this a negative to DVC.  Not that we particularly cared about getting the exorbitantly expensive 3BRs when we were DVC members.  But the whole thing of having to call every single day, at precisely 8am EST, to book a reservation, one day at a time (and not knowing until the end of the reservation span whether we were able to get it all or not) - tiresome.


I never said it was a positive, or a negative. I simply said that's the way it works.
Calling everyday is not my favorite thing to do, but I like the fairness it provides when booking a reservation.



> Since some DVC resorts don't offer 3BRs, it's not only non-members who would need to rely on others to go through these hoops for them in order to stay in a 3BR.  Many DVC members are limited by this home-resort issue too.


That's not the point. The point is, a rentee may not get a renter to do it.
If you own DVC, you can purchase where you want stay in order to make that hard reservation.



> Again, if you don't care about 3BRs in popular seasons, it's a non-issue.


It can be an issue- Boardwalk standard view, Beach Club 2br with 2 queens, Animal Kingdom concierge level, just to name a few.



> Only if you are renting frequently.  For people who would only go every 3, 4 years or less, it may be better to rent - certainly cheaper upfront.


As I said, "you will *eventually* spend more money renting than it would cost to purchase."

That's a true statement. 
I also believe visiting once every 3 years is good to purchase, since you only need to buy 1/3 the amount of points.


----------



## cindi (Mar 27, 2007)

Carl,

Is it possible to call for that first day you want, and then ask to be put on a wait list for the following days? Would that even work? Or don't they allow that?


----------



## Carl D (Mar 27, 2007)

cindi said:


> Carl,
> 
> Is it possible to call for that first day you want, and then ask to be put on a wait list for the following days? Would that even work? Or don't they allow that?


Hi Cindi.
Unfortunately DVC does not allow that. The official policy is that a member can book their home resort 11 months before check out day, and non home resorts 7 months before check out day. 
You can wait until 11 months prior to your last day, then just book the whole trip at once. The only problem with doing it that way is the tough to get reservations, since others may be booking them while you are waiting for your final day.

Day by day booking isn't truly needed most of the time, but in certain circumstances it's a good idea.

Just to add- I see you own at Boardwalk. You may have good reason to book day by day if you want a grand villa or standard view. A guaranteed Boardwalk view is also a good reason.


----------



## cindi (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanks Carl,

I didn't expect they would let you do that, but it sure seemed like a good idea at the time.  

And even though I own at Boardwalk, I have to tell you I have not yet been able to get the standard view for the less points in the two times I have booked a stay there. Of course I didn't call exactly 11 months ahead, either. Oh well, I really like the views of the preferred view anyway.


----------



## ralphd (Mar 27, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Sure it is.  In fact, this approach is more effective than owning because you have owners at all DVC resorts seeking to book reservations for you.  To achieve that by owning, you would have to own at every DVC resort.  That is a LOT of upfront capital.
> 
> Don't agree with me?  All I have to do is put an offer of $12-14/point on the Disboards and I'll have at least as good a chance at getting ANY DVC resort for any checkin date in any unit size for any number of days, than any single owner.
> 
> The return on invested capital is so poor on a DVC relative to the alternatives that it is pretty low bar to outperform it.  And, that is not factoring in the guaranteed loss of 100% of invested capital sometime in the future.  DVC owners have really been lulled to sleep on that fact of ownership.



But I can sell my DVC points for a profit. Can you say that about your timeshare?


----------



## ralphd (Mar 27, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> BocaBum99 brings up an interesting point that even DVC owners CAN'T always get what they want unless they own in the exact building (1 of 8 choices) they want to stay in.




Exact building?  Not true!


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 27, 2007)

ralphd said:


> But I can sell my DVC points for a profit. Can you say that about your timeshare?



Add me to the list of DVC owners that have profited (over $6k on WLV) and will contiue to profit (rent extra points) off my "bought directly from the developer" DVC timeshare. 

I have posted on many threads that I beleive DVC is the ONLY timeshare where you can still buy from the developer and sell in 3-5 years for a PROFIT.

Yes, timeshares are NOT supposed ot be an investment and are NOT supposed to make a profit, but when it happens...it is a nice feeling!

You can't say that about buying direct from Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Westgate, WorldMark, Ritz, Four seasons, etc.


----------



## bnoble (Mar 28, 2007)

Whenever I look at it, I come to the same conclusion that Bill does; if you buy early in a Resort's life-cycle and resell in a short period of time, you can do okay.  Those capital gains are mostly lost if you recycle back into DVC, but if you can break even on the capital expenses the nightly costs for DVC studios are comparable to those of a Disney Moderate resort room---which is much much lower in quality.

If you really must stay on Disney property, short-term DVC recycling sure seems like the way to go.  It's still going to cost you the Disney property premium, but that's a cost/benefit decision you have to make for yourself.


----------



## MattnTricia (Mar 29, 2007)

*My DVC Story*

8 years ago I first looked at DVC and could not fathom paying $50/pt resale for an OKW unit. This last Thanksgiving I finally bought in at the New Saratoga Springs for $86/pt. i am still kicking myself in the butt on this one.

Why would I buy in to DVC when  I also own at WorldMark and Hilton and honestly can pretty much pick my unit using RCI or II using those as trade bait and having enough lead time to get what I want.

The reasoning is simple. Disney is super easy to rent if you ever need to. In the Medium Term (5-10 years) Prices will remain stable at the very least and probably go up if recent history is any indicator. Most importantly my wife told me to buy it so I did.

Seriously, DVC is the best for several reasons. Ambiance, theming, Quality, Courtesy, Location, and most importantly it is Disney. We are a Disney family that visits Disneyland / Walt Disney World an average of 2 times per year. We want to maximize our use time by staying on site and getting the maximum enjoyment out of it we can. 

My top reasons we think DVC is better from a privelage standpoint is:
1)disney Dining Plan Opportunity
2)Early Magic Hours
3)easier transportation - including Magical Express
4)Annual Pass Discounts

You don't buy DVC for any other reason then to use. It is expensive, has high MF's and is a terrible value when it comes to trading. If you want Disney and are going to make it part of your lifestyle then I say DVC is for you.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 29, 2007)

mattnday said:


> 8 years ago I first looked at DVC and could not fathom paying $50/pt resale for an OKW unit. This last Thanksgiving I finally bought in at the New Saratoga Springs for $86/pt. i am still kicking myself in the butt on this one.



I think you are very safe buying SSR at $86pp. 

I also added-on more SSR points at that last promotion in December and they also threw in a full years of points, thus the NET cost to me (after renting one years points $10-11pp) was only $76pp.

I did not buy AKV as I thought the $104pp was not worth it to me, especially when SSR was so cheap.


----------



## tomandrobin (Mar 29, 2007)

mattnday said:


> 8 years ago I first looked at DVC and could not fathom paying $50/pt resale for an OKW unit. This last Thanksgiving I finally bought in at the New Saratoga Springs for $86/pt. i am still kicking myself in the butt on this one.
> 
> Why would I buy in to DVC when  I also own at WorldMark and Hilton and honestly can pretty much pick my unit using RCI or II using those as trade bait and having enough lead time to get what I want.
> 
> ...



Another item I would add is flexibilty of DVC. One big factor for us is we can go for 4 or 5 days at a time. We don't have to follow the normal fri, sat or sun check-in and stay for a week like most timeshares. And by staying 4 days, we are using exactly what we want to use, no wasted days (which equals wasted money).


----------



## bnoble (Mar 29, 2007)

That's true of many point-based systems, not just DVC.


----------



## tomandrobin (Mar 29, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I think you are very safe buying SSR at $86pp.
> 
> I also added-on more SSR points at that last promotion in December and they also threw in a full years of points, thus the NET cost to me (after renting one years points $10-11pp) was only $76pp.
> 
> I did not buy AKV as I thought the $104pp was not worth it to me, especially when SSR was so cheap.



Existing members could have added on at 93/point (101 - 8/pp = 93) if they did not want the developer points.


----------



## tomandrobin (Mar 29, 2007)

bnoble said:


> That's true of many point-based systems, not just DVC.



Yes and no, but the thread is specific about DVC. 

I own Starwood also. The have a week/point timeshares. But you can only use the points for partial weeks either 90 or 60 days out from when you want to stay. Its not very practical to use for short stays.


----------



## TravelingT (Mar 30, 2007)

I have used the Disney Dining plan three times and we love it.  I cook for my family day in and day out and I don't want to cook on my vacation or spend precious vacation time looking for restaurants that are cheap to eat when I could be relaxing at my resort or enjoying my vacation.  After all, it is my vacation too!

When I get a one bedroom or larger unit at Disney, it is nice to have the kitchen for convenience.  But I don't intend on using it to fix all my meals.  With the dining plan, everyone can eat nice meals in fabulous restaurants for a reasonable price.  

But don't discount the convenience of the Disney Dining plan as a DVC perk until you have toured the parks with 2 HUNGRY children (including one teenager).  For me, it is a definite perk of being a DVC member.


----------



## Potential Buyer Scott (May 9, 2007)

*Summary*

I just read this whole thread.  I get the impression that DVC is about the worst timeshare out there in cold $ and cents.  by that I mean that, if a person had never heard of any of the timeshare brands and you explained to them what they got with each one, they would probably pick Disney last.

However, there seems to be a group of people whose very identity has become intertwined with the Disney marketing effort.  Perhaps a tie to childhood memories?  For these people the real value seems to be that owning DCV makes them 'feel good'.  For this person DCV is the ultimate destination and would be a good value if they double the price again.  No amount of $ savings can duplicate the priceless feeling they get from owning a part of Disney.  

Half of me says that their views are silly, (you don't need a car, why would anyone want to leave Disney).  The other half of me thinks that is kinda cool, and wishes it felt that way about any destination.

Just my impressions.

PBS


----------



## JudyS (May 9, 2007)

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> I just read this whole thread.  I get the impression that DVC is about the worst timeshare out there in cold $ and cents.  by that I mean that, if a person had never heard of any of the timeshare brands and you explained to them what they got with each one, they would probably pick Disney last.....


Oh, my, my, my!

I think you've gotten the wrong impression, Scott.  Staying "onsite" at Disney is very expensive compared to staying offsite and some (not all) people don't think it's worth it.  However, I think you'll be very hard pressed to find anyone here at TUG who has lost money buying DVC.  If you re-read the thread carefully you'll see that even John (timeos2), who may be TUG's most ardent opponent of the DVC, made money when he sold his DVC membership.  For most other timeshares, in contrast, you can find plenty of people who lost half or more of the purchase price of their timeshare. 

I bought my DVC contract resale about 3 years ago.  It came with banked points; after renting them, my contract cost me a bit under $12,000.  I rent my DVC points out each year for at least $1000 more than I spend each year in annual fees.  My DVC contract is now worth about $15,000 on the resale market.  So, that's about 8% income each year, and 25% appreciation in three years.  There are some people here who do even better with their timeshares, but this rate of return isn't too shabby.  Also, people who make money of their timeshares generally have to put in a lot of effort; in contrast, DVC points are _very_ easy to rent or sell. I understand the reality that DVC will one day decline in value as it reaches the end of the RTU period, but I believe that day is at least 10 years off still. 

As for whether one should limit oneself to Disney or see the rest of Orlando, I go to Orlando a couple of times a year.  Sometimes, I stay onsite, mostly do Disney, and don't need a rental car.  Other times, I stay offsite, rent a car, and mostly go shopping, swim, go to other attractions, etc.  Give the high cost of attraction tickets, and the fact that many attraction tickets expire after a set amount of time, it can be much more cost-effective to  concentrate either just on Disney or just on the other parks for any one trip, rather than doing both in one trip. 

By the way, I kept careful track of what I spent on food during my last onsite trip.  We splurged on one sit-down meal for my birthday.  The other meals were either things we cooked ourselves, or counter service.  I figured that if we had purchased the Disney Dining Plan, we would have spent exactly the same amount and would have been able to enjoy many more sit-down meals.  The Disney Dining Plan can mean really big saving for anyone who likes the Disney sit-down restaurants. 

There are a couple of other DVC perks that I believe no one yet has mentioned.  If you are staying on DVC points, you generally have permission to use almost any Disney resort pool on property, and most of the health clubs, too.  Probably not many people use this, but it could be very nice for fitness buffs or for a family that likes to swim and wants to save money by doing some non-park days.   Also, being a DVC member means you can visit any of the Disney hotels by just waiving your DVC membership card, without having to give an excuse for going there.  Dh and I often like to watch the sunset from the hammocks at the Coronado, watch the fireworks from the Polynesian, go to Animal Kingdom Lodge to see the animals, or just ride the various boats that travel to and from the resorts.  If you buy non-expiring tickets, you can really stretch the tickets out by doing some non-park days where you just enjoy the resorts.  If you are staying offsite, you can still go to the resorts, but you have to have a reason, such as dinner reservations.  (You _could _ lie and say you have a dinner reservation when you don't, but then you'd be trespassing.)  

Oh, DVC members get free valet parking at some of the resorts, too.


----------



## tomandrobin (May 9, 2007)

Lets not forget that Walt Disney World is the single largest theme park/resort attraction in the world. 

Not everyone gets it. We have friends who has been there once, 15 years ago, and have no interest in going back. They are huge golfers, and prefer to go to Myrtle Beach 8 times during the year to golf. Ironically, we don't golf and don't get why they want to go to Myrtle and golf so much. 

You only should buy DVC to stay at DVC. Its not your bargain, trading timeshare unit.


----------



## tomandrobin (May 9, 2007)

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> I just read this whole thread.  I get the impression that DVC is about the worst timeshare out there in cold $ and cents.  by that I mean that, if a person had never heard of any of the timeshare brands and you explained to them what they got with each one, they would probably pick Disney last.



To me there are 4 or 5 different levels of timeshares and timeshare users. There is the point of use timeshares (buy to use exclusively at that resort or club). Bargain owners who look for those hidden resale gems with the low MF for trading or renting purposes. There are the garbage timeshares, week 4 in Boston (why anyone would sell or buy these weeks is beyond me). There are the high end stuff that most of us can just dream of owning (Four Seasons resorts, Ocean Front weeks in Hawaii at a Marriott/Westin/Hilton etc). There are the somewhat ok timeshares (red weeks in Orlando, Vegas, Shoulder seasons at beach and ski resorts). And last are the "normal" middle of the road units (red weeks in Arizona, Beach resorts, Ski resorts, Hawaii (not OF), etc. that most can afford and do well enough in trades).

DVC definately is a point of use timeshare. But it does (or at least has) done well in holding its value over the years.


----------



## tashamen (May 9, 2007)

JudyS said:


> Also, being a DVC member means you can visit any of the Disney hotels by just waiving your DVC membership card, without having to give an excuse for going there.  Dh and I often like to watch the sunset from the hammocks at the Coronado, watch the fireworks from the Polynesian, go to Animal Kingdom Lodge to see the animals, or just ride the various boats that travel to and from the resorts.  If you buy non-expiring tickets, you can really stretch the tickets out by doing some non-park days where you just enjoy the resorts.  If you are staying offsite, you can still go to the resorts, but you have to have a reason, such as dinner reservations.  (You _could _ lie and say you have a dinner reservation when you don't, but then you'd be trespassing.)



Are you saying that people can't just walk into a Disney onsite resort?  (This sounds really odd to me, though I don't doubt you.)  Do you have to be a DVC member to have such access, or do exchangers into the DVC ts also have it?  I'm asking mainly for a friend who may be going, and one of the things she expressly wanted to do was to be able to go to other onsite resorts.  But if she can't do that while staying at a DVC ts then she will probably opt to stay offsite.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 9, 2007)

tashamen said:


> Are you saying that people can't just walk into a Disney onsite resort?  (This sounds really odd to me, though I don't doubt you.)  Do you have to be a DVC member to have such access, or do exchangers into the DVC ts also have it?  I'm asking mainly for a friend who may be going, and one of the things she expressly wanted to do was to be able to go to other onsite resorts.  But if she can't do that while staying at a DVC ts then she will probably opt to stay offsite.



You may be able to "WALK" onto any Disney hotel site...but getting past the guard with your car is another story.


----------



## SOS8260456 (May 9, 2007)

We are an "onsite loving" family, although I can't justify a major DVC purchase for my family.  Two things that I didn't see mentioned here so far:

1.  A major current benefit for owning DVC is the $100 discount on annual passes.  We picked up a small point package for approx $2500 with closing costs just to take advantage of this perk.  With a family of 5 who loves that mouse, this is a great savings for us.

2.  A major drawback of booking through DVC is that the points for weekend stays are practically double those needed for weekday stays.  So you will frequently find most DVC owners only stay Sun through Fri in order to avoid those high point nights.

We always rent a car when in Orlando even though we haven't ventured beyond the mouse yet.  However, the main advantage of Disney transportation for us is not getting to the parks before those staying offsite, but rather being able to easily have our family of 5 split up and not have to worry about being stuck in the park if my youngest child is ready for a break but my older ones are still ready to go.  Dad can stay with the older ones while mom heads back to the room with no worries about how they are going to get back.

Lisa


----------



## BocaBum99 (May 9, 2007)

JudyS said:


> Oh, my, my, my!
> 
> I think you've gotten the wrong impression, Scott.  Staying "onsite" at Disney is very expensive compared to staying offsite and some (not all) people don't think it's worth it.  However, I think you'll be very hard pressed to find anyone here at TUG who has lost money buying DVC.  If you re-read the thread carefully you'll see that even John (timeos2), who may be TUG's most ardent opponent of the DVC, made money when he sold his DVC membership.  For most other timeshares, in contrast, you can find plenty of people who lost half or more of the purchase price of their timeshare.
> 
> ...



Judy,

In 2043, most DVC ownerships will be worth ZERO.  So, the fact that they are rising in the short term is discounting that fact that that will utlimately happen.   It's like winning money in a casino.  You can win in the short term, but if you play long enough, the casino will take all your money.  The same is true with DVC.

If the prices are rising, the question is who will be "the greater fool?"  That's because there is a guaranteed loss situation that increases with every next owner.  

When Steamboat Bill says that SSR is a safe bet at $86/point, that is exactly what I mean.  His underlying assumption is that it will continue to do what it has in the past.  But, we all know that that cannot happen forever.  The real question is when will it start tanking?  Probably like all pyramid schemes.  Sooner and more quickly than people can imagine.  Stock investors saw that in early 2000.


----------



## tashamen (May 9, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> You may be able to "WALK" onto any Disney hotel site...but getting past the guard with your car is another story.



Thanks for the clarification.  She would be walking.


----------



## timeos2 (May 9, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> When Steamboat Bill says that SSR is a safe bet at $86/point, that is exactly what I mean.  His underlying assumption is that it will continue to do what it has in the past.  But, we all know that that cannot happen forever.  The real question is when will it start tanking?  Probably like all pyramid schemes.  Sooner and more quickly than people can imagine.  Stock investors saw that in early 2000.



Boca - A perfect summary. Despite "success" (completely unplanned and I'm certainly happy it occurred) of selling higher than purchase price all I have ever said is anyone who says that will continue is simply not paying attention. The rest, liking to be in the magic, not minding the fees, etc, is personal choice. If that part makes it worth the cost life is good. The one and only down side is the fact that the ride will end - not might but will - it's guaranteed. The one holding that lease when DVC first says "no thanks" to ROFR and every one after that will find a new kind of magic they won't like. It's called the disappearing dollar.


----------



## Big Matt (May 9, 2007)

All you have to do is tell the guard that you are visiting the resort and want to see it.  They'll let you in



Steamboat Bill said:


> You may be able to "WALK" onto any Disney hotel site...but getting past the guard with your car is another story.


----------



## Sea Six (May 9, 2007)

All you need is a photo ID to get into a hotel.  Around Christmas we visit all the major Disney hotels to see their lobby decorations, gift shops, and stop by the bar for one of the resorts specialty drinks, which they all seem to have.


----------



## Lisa P (May 9, 2007)

Tashamen, she won't need to walk.  She may take the resort bus/monorail/boat from the parks or she may drive to a resort.  We visit the Disney resorts to take walks, rent boats, eat in the restaurants (with or without reservations).  In a dozen trips or more, we have always told the security guard what we planned to do and we've NEVER been turned away.  Sometimes, they've given us a dashboard pass for a few hours parking in the resort lot, sometimes they just took down our car's license plate number and just waved us in.  No problem at all - regardless of where we were staying (offsite or on).  Hope your friend has a fun time!


----------



## JudyS (May 9, 2007)

Sea Six said:


> All you need is a photo ID to get into a hotel.  Around Christmas we visit all the major Disney hotels to see their lobby decorations, gift shops, and stop by the bar for one of the resorts specialty drinks, which they all seem to have.


Yeah, I probably should have been clearer about this.  You _can _go to the Disney resorts if you are staying offsite, you just have to explain yourself to the security guard at the check-point when you drive in.  But I don't like having to do this, especially since I'm not sure they'd let me in if I'm not planning to buy anything and truthfully said, (for example) "I just like sitting in the hammocks here and watching the sunset over the lake."  With my DVC card, I don't have to explain myself, I just flash the card at the security guard and they let me in.  I like that a lot.  Before we were DVC members, we also went to the resorts sometimes, but I sometimes felt that the security guards were giving us a bit of a hard time about our reasons for going there. 

As for walking in to the resorts, they are generally quite a long walk apart.   Instead, your friend may want to take Disney transport to the resorts.


----------



## dioxide45 (May 9, 2007)

Bill927 said:


> Also, one other question: we saw several people each day wearing an "Ultimate Fastpass".  It was a gray plastic card that allowed them instant access to the Fastpass line.  Anyone know the story with this perk?



This pass is the incentive that DVC provides to go to one of their timeshare presentations. When we looked in to a tour in 2005, this is what they were told. The time saved with this Ultimate Fastpass would more than make up for the time lost at the presentation is what we were told.


----------



## SOS8260456 (May 9, 2007)

I am thinking that the ultimate fast pass may be part of Disney's Year of a Million Dreams, one of the prizes that they have been giving away with one of the daily prizes being a night sleeping in the castle.

I do know that we have received "instant fastpasses" for doing the tour, but usually only 2 or 3 per person in our party.

Lisa


----------



## BocaBum99 (May 9, 2007)

Now that would be a feature that would make it worth buying DVC.  It DVC owners could get unlimited fast passes, then I would buy in immediately.


----------



## timeos2 (May 9, 2007)

*Don't buy on  promised perks - anywhere - they change*



BocaBum99 said:


> Now that would be a feature that would make it worth buying DVC.  It DVC owners could get unlimited fast passes, then I would buy in immediately.



You'd want that in writing as the free park passes disappeared after five years and only were given to the buyers not guests or, shudder, exchangers.  Turned out to be far less than it appeared.


----------



## phatpharm (May 9, 2007)

*Purchased 150 DVC Points in 2001*

and If I add up our accomodation costs over the years they are now more than our initial cost for the 150 points.  I believe our MF will allow us to stay in beautiful DVC resorts for the rest of our days.  The system is straight forward, borrowing, banking and reserving are a breeze. I think that the DVC is very Disney centric and that may be off putting to a lot of people who would like more flexibility and value in trading outside of Disney. For us it works.  We often stay at Vero Beach DVC which is beautiful. We have stayed at other DVC reorts within the park without even visiting the parks. (No small kids anymore) Yes, its value will be zero in 2043 but we, more than likely, will have moved on to our permanent vacation in the sky and the value of a DVC timeshare will be far from our concerns.  We, hopefully, will have gotten our money's worth, and I don't have to worry about burdening my kids with something they may not want to pay for. For now, we enjoy it very very much.


----------



## JudyS (May 9, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Judy,
> 
> In 2043, most DVC ownerships will be worth ZERO.  So, the fact that they are rising in the short term is discounting that fact that that will utlimately happen.   It's like winning money in a casino.  You can win in the short term, but if you play long enough, the casino will take all your money.  The same is true with DVC.
> 
> ...


I'm not certain DVC points will actually be worth *nothing* at the end of the RTU.  Assuming Disney Co. is still around and selling timeshares, they will probably offer members with expiring RTUs a discount on a new timeshare, so that's something.  However,  I agree that DVC will be worth very little near the end of the RTU period -- Disney might offer a discount of maybe 20% of the current value of DVC points (corrected for inflation), tops.  For argument's sake, we can assume DVC points will be worth nothing when they expire.

So, you are absolutely correct that at some point, the value of DVC points must decline. But does that mean that someone who buys and then sells at a lower price (or holds onto the points until they expire) is being ripped off?  No, because the main value in DVC points doesn't come from buying them and then trying to sell them later at a higher price.  The main value comes from the deluxe Disney accommodations that DVC points provide.  So, if I sell my DVC points to someone who later sells them at a loss (or keeps them until the RTU period expires), that person may still have gotten good value, as long as they have saved enough on accommodations to justify the original purchase price (and the annual fees, lost opportunity cost, etc.) 

Currently, with the most efficient use of DVC points, a DVC point is worth about $20 (each year) towards the price of a deluxe Disney room, after one pays annual dues.  So, figuring a points cost of $90 and adding in lost opportunity cost, one breaks even on a Disney purchase in maybe six or seven years.  Currently, the oldest DVC memberships have 35 years left on them. That's 28 or more years of ownership left after one breaks even on the purchase price.  There's plenty of time for people to get lots of value out of DVC points. 

Furthermore, Disney has found excellent ways to market their hotels, and that has allowed them to raise their hotels prices considerably faster than inflation.  Therefore, for someone who wants to stay in a deluxe Disney hotel, DVC points have increased in value.  I believe that this increase in Disney hotel prices, rather than some sort of speculative bubble, is why DVC points prices have gone up.  I'm happy to hold on to my DVC points (and am considering buying more) because I think Disney will keep raising their hotel prices for at least the next few years.  Yes, DVC prices will decline as the RTU period nears its end, but this early in the RTU period, the increases in Disney hotel prices have a stronger effect. 

Here is another way that I think about the RTU period.  I also own timeshares that are deeded.  So, I (or someone) will presumably own these timeshares in 2043. What do I think is the present value of having ownership of these timeshares in 2043?  Pretty much nothing.   If, say, Marriott were selling timeshares at their Maui resort, but the ownership wouldn't start until 2043, I'd pay hardly anything at all for that -- not even 5% of the current price of a Marriott Maui unit.  It's so far in the future that it has hardly any value now. That means present value to me of a top resort in 2043 is less than 5% of its current price. So, why should I discount the value of DVC points by more than, say, 5% from what I would pay if they were permanently deeded?  

Now, one thing I haven't mentioned is renting DVC points.  I think DVC points rent for *way *less than they should.  So, renting DVC points rather than buying them is certainly an option.  However, there are risks and hassles involved in renting, DVC points rental rates may not always stay low, and there are various perks (such as the discounted annual passes) that renters give up.  Given all this, I'm happy to own DVC.


----------



## JudyS (May 9, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Now that would be a feature that would make it worth buying DVC.  It DVC owners could get unlimited fast passes, then I would buy in immediately.


  That would be similar to what Universal is doing with allowing people who stay in their hotels to have "head of the line" access.  I wouldn't be surprised if Disney does something like this at some point, but I wouldn't expect it to be unlimited.  But even giving out a few "instant fastpasses" per stay would be nice!  This is the sort of thing I expect Disney to do in order to keep jacking up their hotel rates.  They've added Magical Express, Extra Magic Hours, and the Disney Dining Plan; maybe next they'll add some extra fastpass privileges for hotel guests. 

DVC members do sometimes get invited to "soft openings" that regular guests can't attend.  As a DVC member, I went on Expedition Everest before it opened to the public.  However, Annual Pass holders also were eligible, so buying DVC wasn't the only way to have access.


----------



## tashamen (May 10, 2007)

JudyS said:


> As for walking in to the resorts, they are generally quite a long walk apart.   Instead, your friend may want to take Disney transport to the resorts.



Thans, Judy and Lisa P - I meant using the onsite transportation when I said "walk" - I guess I wasn't too clear either.  She doesn't want to rent a car if she stays onsite and was assuming that she could use onsite transportation and go into a resort for a drink, for example.  Sounds like that's doable and would make her very happy!


----------



## JudyS (May 10, 2007)

tashamen said:


> ...  She doesn't want to rent a car if she stays onsite and was assuming that she could use onsite transportation and go into a resort for a drink, for example.  Sounds like that's doable and would make her very happy!


Yep, definitely doable.  And, I've never heard of anyone being asked to justify why they were going to a Disney resort if they were coming in on Disney transit -- people only get questioned if they drive in to the resort, in my experience. 

It can be a hassle to get from resort to resort using Disney transit, though.  It generally involves taking a bus to Downtown Disney or to a theme park and then transferring.   When I want to visit the other resorts, and don't have a car, I usually combine the trips with shopping or a visit to a theme park. 

If she's staying at an Epcot resort, getting to the other Epcot resorts is easy.  Same goes for traveling between the Monorail resorts.


----------



## Dean (May 12, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> 99.99% of other timeshare people could NOT pull this off....congrats on your fantastic trade.


I'm getting in late but this is not accurate.  DVC is not difficult to trade in to for part of the year and for less than a 2 BR.  I'd say about 5 months of the year a decent week at a higher rated resort will get you in.  It's not necessarily easy but not difficult with a little planning.



Potential Buyer Scott said:


> I just read this whole thread.  I get the impression that DVC is about the worst timeshare out there in cold $ and cents.  by that I mean that, if a person had never heard of any of the timeshare brands and you explained to them what they got with each one, they would probably pick Disney last.
> 
> However, there seems to be a group of people whose very identity has become intertwined with the Disney marketing effort.  Perhaps a tie to childhood memories?  For these people the real value seems to be that owning DCV makes them 'feel good'.  For this person DCV is the ultimate destination and would be a good value if they double the price again.  No amount of $ savings can duplicate the priceless feeling they get from owning a part of Disney.
> 
> ...


DVC is a specialty item that has value for many and not for many others.  If one does not value going to WDW and does not put value into staying on property it makes no sense to join.  But it is a very flexible system overall and therein lies much of it's inherent value.  I know of no other system where you can book one day or 7 at essentially the same time, stay any month of the year and potentially at any resort in the system.  The best value will come from Sun to Fri stays (or 12 days with one weekend) esp in a studio or 2 BR.  For the most part you have people that have never tried it saying they don't get it and those that have tried it saying it's worth it.  It is expensive but if you take into account the flexibility and you use the flexibility, it is not as much more (either up front or yearly fees) as some would like you to think.

And it will go down in value at some point, the 2042 resorts have likely neared their apex and in the next 5-7 years will probably go down.  But don't let anyone kid you that the price is simply related to ROFR.  Over the years there have been far more times that the price was not affected by ROFR than when it was.  I do doubt that anyone buying now will make money other than AKV or possibly other new resorts.  I don't think anyone could buy SSR and make much but who knows.  

For Orlando usage one will likely do much better than buying any Orlando Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton or the like but it does depend on your views.  We also own BG and stayed at the Fountains a week ago.  It's a very nice resort with a nice pool but it certainly doesn't have the ambience of a Disney resort.  But for the price it was a better choice for this given trip.  



timeos2 said:


> You'd want that in writing as the free park passes disappeared after five years and only were given to the buyers not guests or, shudder, exchangers.  Turned out to be far less than it appeared.


Simply another incorrect statement.  By contract the passes expired the last day of 1999.  They were not given to exchangers but were given to any OKW owner that had them in their contract including any guest and even renters.  So depending on when you bought, they were good for up to 8 years or so.  I personally got 5 years of free passes but with borrowing the 2000 points into 1999, I got them on 6 years worth of points.  Enough that if I had simply given my contract away at that point I would have broken even even including the dues.  

There are other benefits to owning DVC but it depends on how you'd use those benefits as to whether they provide value or not.  To me DVC is a nice complement to other systems.  A specialty item for a specific purpose.


----------

