# Why Wyndham and Worldmark?



## Whichway (Dec 19, 2016)

I attended my first owner's update in a while and found out Wyndham removed the ability for resale owners to book Worldmark properties (having to call in and the $99 fee deterred me from bothering).

It got me thinking about why there are still two separate brands? I had never heard of Worldmark until I had already gone to a Wyndham resort. Curious what does having the Worldmark brand give Wyndham. It seems like if they rebranded the Worldmark properties and make everything as part of the same Wyndham timeshare pool it would help their branding marketing dollar go further.


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## Richelle (Dec 19, 2016)

From what I understand, Worldmark gives Wyndham locations in the northwest that they did not have before.  Here is the excuse for not allowing resale points to be used for WorldMark resorts.  BTW, you book WorldMark resorts through Club pass and you have to call a VC to do it.  It cannot be done online at the moment.

*Why is it required to use developer-purchased points for WYNDHAM Club Pass?* _WYNDHAM Club Pass is a program provided by the developer to CLUB WYNDHAM owners. This program expands resort choices and availability to the members, using the breadth and depth of the entire Wyndham brand. The developer has made a significant financial commitment to implement this program and therefore is only available to members who buy their points directly from the developer._

When I read that, my BS alarm went off so much it exploded.  They just want another reason to talk people into buying developer.  I'd rather buy WorldMark points on eBay if I want to go to a WorldMark location.

This is the link to the full FAQ regarding Club Pass

https://www.myclubwyndham.com/ffrweb/pdfs/wyn_club_pass_faqs.pdf


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## ecwinch (Dec 19, 2016)

The short answer is that the Worldmark governing documents afford WM members protections against such an event occurring without their agreement. Any merging of the two Club's would require extensive modification of the WM governing documents - which can only be accomplished by a majority of the total voting power exclusive of the developer's points. 

The best that Wyndham was able to do is the Club Pass brand.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 19, 2016)

They did take a few worldmark resorts and take a portion of units and spin them off as a wyndham resort.  They did the same with some wyndham locaitons for worldmark.  The was a big lawsuit, that the worldmark owners won that caused a restriction of wyndham owners to worldmark properties.  I don't know all the details but you can search on it.


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## ronparise (Dec 19, 2016)

What you suggest is no different than suggesting that Marriott owners be allowed to reserve Hilton timeshares with their points or vistana owners be allowed to reserve shell vacation resorts with their points

Club Wyndham  and Worldmark are two separate and distinct timeshare clubs that happen to have the same developer/manager

Club Pass is an exchange operation that that the manager has created to allow the owners of one club to exchange what they own for vacations at the other clubs resorts.  It is a special benefit available only to folks that buy directly from the common developer


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## Ty1on (Dec 19, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> They did take a few worldmark resorts and take a portion of units and spin them off as a wyndham resort.  They did the same with some wyndham locaitons for worldmark.  The was a big lawsuit, that the worldmark owners won that caused a restriction of wyndham owners to worldmark properties.  I don't know all the details but you can search on it.



Search "Worldmark v. Wixon"

Essentially, Worldmark was expanding ownership points into several resorts that were very seasonal and thus did not attract guests for much of the year.  This over-concentrated demand on the remaining resorts, making it difficult for some members to use their points to their satisfaction.  In settlement, Wyndham deeded about half of the inventory in the seasonal resorts over to Wyndham and reduced the systemwide WM points inventory accordingly.


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## Whichway (Dec 19, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> The short answer is that the Worldmark governing documents afford WM members protections against such an event occurring without their agreement. Any merging of the two Club's would require extensive modification of the WM governing documents - which can only be accomplished by a majority of the total voting power exclusive of the developer's points.
> 
> The best that Wyndham was able to do is the Club Pass brand.



Is there strong opposition from Wordmark owners around something like this or is it just the difficulty of getting many people to agree on the same thing?


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## VacationForever (Dec 19, 2016)

Whichway said:


> Is there strong opposition from Wordmark owners around something like this or is it just the difficulty of getting many people to agree on the same thing?


The founding fathers of Worldmark put a tight governing document to protect the owners.  Worldmark was formed as a non-profit organization back then.


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## bizaro86 (Dec 19, 2016)

The highest turnout ever for anything Worldmark related is less than 40%, and that's mostly because they gave away a cruise for voting. 

Plus, a big chunk of those votes came from folks (including myself) who would be militantly opposed to merging the two.

Worldmark has way lower MF costs than club Wyndham,  and much greater flexibility. That would all likely be diluted in a merger, and the access worldmark owners would get in return wouldn't come close to making it worthwhile.

Any WM owner who wants that access can buy a cheap CWA contract, and a Wyndham owner could just buy a small WM contract.


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## VacationForever (Dec 19, 2016)

Plus the Worldmark governing document also limits MF increase per year.


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## ronparise (Dec 19, 2016)

sptung said:


> Plus the Worldmark governing document also limits MF increase per year.



But the limit (5%) is more than any of my club Wyndham resorts have raised their mf

And to the  point that Worldmark is a non profit. So is club Wyndham  and nearly every other cindi home owners association I'm aware of

Club Wyndham and worldmark are two separate and distinct timeshare programs.  I am confident that Wyndham has no secret plan to combine the two


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

Almost every timeshare is organized as a non-profit corporate organization. Nothing unique about WM there.

It is the specific provisions of the WM governing documents that afford the protections that prevent it. If WM owners approved a merger, Wyndham would need no approval from members of Club Wyndham.


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> Almost every timeshare is organized as a non-profit corporate organization. Nothing unique about WM there.
> 
> It is the specific provisions of the WM governing documents that afford the protections that prevent it. If WM owners approved a merger, Wyndham would need no approval from members of Club Wyndham.






ecwinch said:


> Almost every timeshare is organized as a non-profit corporate organization. Nothing unique about WM there.
> 
> It is the specific provisions of the WM governing documents that afford the protections that prevent it. If WM owners approved a merger, Wyndham would need no approval from members of Club Wyndham.



As long as Wyndham owners actually own their resorts (We have deeds) and Worldmark owners only have a membership in a club I don't think a merger is possible; with or without owner or member approval. I mean how can they give my deed to the Worldmark club without my approval

However If our developer/ manager wants an effective "merger" I think all they have to do is open up Club Pass to all owners.  Club Wyndham owners could use their points at Worldmark resorts and Worldmark members could use their credits at Wyndham resorts and going forward,  each new resort could have some Wyndham rooms and some Worldmark rooms

That we don't see any Worldmark rooms in Clearwater or any Wyndham rooms in Scottsdale tells me that our common manager intends to keep them separate from each other and from Shell

EZPZ


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

In Club Wyndham you assign your property rights to your deeded week to the trust in exchange for some points.

A merger would be between the two points systems. No deeds involved.

So Club Wyndham could easily "absorb" all the WM resorts in exchange for points if the WM owners voted to do so. They do this all the time with existing timeshares - the Pahio resorts, Smugglers, etc - but in a piecemeal fashion. WM would be a huge transaction, but no different.


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> In Club Wyndham you assign your property rights to your deeded week to the trust in exchange for some points.
> 
> A merger would be between the two points systems. No deeds involved.
> 
> So Club Wyndham could easily "absorb" all the WM resorts in exchange for points if the WM owners voted to do so. They do this all the time with existing timeshares - the Pahio resorts, Smugglers, etc - but in a piecemeal fashion. WM would be a huge transaction, but no different.



It wouldn't have to be a huge transaction
Pahio wasn't a points based system and there was a ton of unsold weeks that Wyndham deposited into the trust. The old weeks owners still own those weeks that are outside of the points system. 

Wyndham could deposit all the unsold Worldmark credits  into the Fairshare trust and  get points in return (to sell) And individual Worldmark owners could deposit their credits in exchange for points or not (just like Pahio owners could deposit their weeks(or not)

Just like Wyndham owners get advanced reservation priority at their home resorts Worldmark owners who deposited their credits would be able to reserve their resorts at 13 months and nothing would change for the Worldmark owners that don't  convert


as you suggest the Fairshare trust is nothing more than an exchange system. We deposit what we own and get points that we can use at all the resorts
Worldmark owners would still "own" their resorts. It's just that some Worldmark owners that chose to, would get points in exchange for what they own 

I don't see that Worldmark owners need to approve of Wyndham depositing their unsold  credits into the Fairshare trust

My point is that even if it could be done  without Worldmark approval  It would be easier to just extend Club Pass to everyone and it would accomplish the same thing;  easy exchange between the two clubs


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

ronparise said:


> It wouldn't have to be a huge transaction
> Pahio wasn't a points based system and there was a ton of unsold weeks that Wyndham deposited into the trust. The old weeks owners still own those weeks that are outside of the points system.
> 
> Wyndham could deposit all the unsold Worldmark credits  into the Fairshare trust and  get points in return (to sell) And individual Worldmark owners could deposit their credits in exchange for points or not (just like Pahio owners could deposit their weeks(or not)
> ...




All true, but that would not be a merger as the OP asked about and we are discussing. WM would still exist, and WM members would still enjoy their system as they do today. As you point out.

The net result of what you are essentially describing is a just granting Club Wyndham members better access to WM resorts. But at the expense of Club Pass - which kills one of the benefits that differentiates resale pts from developer pts.


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm saying a real merger won't happen. Even your Pahio example wasn't a merger. The folks that own Pahio weeks still own them and they are not part of club Wyndham. Only what was deposited to the Fairshare trust became part of club Wyndham

but none of it is likely. As you say it's to wyndhams advantage and ours to merge operations (one transfer dept and one finance dept and the same Wyndham people decide on what improvements happen when etc etc) but as long as Wyndham can sell them as two different clubs it's to their advantage to keep them separate. (two things to sell)


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## JohnPaul (Dec 20, 2016)

Just a couple of clarifications about points vs deeded weeks.  Worldmark and other reputable points based systems put the real estate (debt free) in a trust that is owned by the members.  There must be sufficient property in the trust to support the outstanding points.    I own .0000011132 (made up) of the Worldmark Trust.  Once the property goes into the trust, the developer cannot access the underlying property to sell, etc.  (That doesn't mean they can't sell points that are represented by property in the trust as they own all the points when they put the property in the trust.)

As to why resales points are not allowed for things like the Club Pass, it's fairly obvious.  If you developer points cost umpteen times what resales points cost, the developer needs to provide benefits that aren't available resale.  Whether those benefits are valuable enough to bridge the difference in price is up to you to decide.


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I'm saying a real merger won't happen. Even your Pahio example wasn't a merger. The folks that own Pahio weeks still own them and they are not part of club Wyndham. Only what was deposited to the Fairshare trust became part of club Wyndham
> 
> but none of it is likely. As you say it's to wyndhams advantage and ours to merge operations (one transfer dept and one finance dept and the same Wyndham people decide on what improvements happen when etc etc) but as long as Wyndham can sell them as two different clubs it's to their advantage to keep them separate. (two things to sell)



As is typically the case in any corporate merger - consent is only required from members of the non-surviving entity. And WM governing documents make that very unlikely. Those documents would also make it very problematic to have WM be the surviving entity in a merger (loss of VIP benefits, etc.).

Pahio was a bad example.


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

JohnPaul said:


> Just a couple of clarifications about points vs deeded weeks.  Worldmark and other reputable points based systems put the real estate (debt free) in a trust that is owned by the members.  There must be sufficient property in the trust to support the outstanding points.    I own .0000011132 (made up) of the Worldmark Trust.  Once the property goes into the trust, the developer cannot access the underlying property to sell, etc.  (That doesn't mean they can't sell points that are represented by property in the trust as they own all the points when they put the property in the trust.)
> 
> As to why resales points are not allowed for things like the Club Pass, it's fairly obvious.  If you developer points cost umpteen times what resales points cost, the developer needs to provide benefits that aren't available resale.  Whether those benefits are valuable enough to bridge the difference in price is up to you to decide.



Worldmark is not a trust like Club Wyndham. It is a non-profit mutual benefit corporation. Members are essentially shareholders.

A Trust is a different legal entity. Trusts don't have members, they have beneficiaries. Beneficiaries typically don't have many voting rights. Therein lies the important distinction between the two Club's - the Trustee completely controls Club Wyndham. On the WM side, at least we have the illusion of democracy.


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> Worldmark is not a trust like Club Wyndham. It is a non-profit mutual benefit corporation. Members are essentially shareholders.
> 
> A Trust is a different legal entity. Trusts don't have members, they have beneficiaries. Beneficiaries typically don't have many voting rights. Therein lies the important distinction between the two Club's - the Trustee completely controls Club Wyndham. On the WM side, at least we have the illusion of democracy.


All understood 


I think what I'm not making clear is that a "merger" cant happen without the approval of every deeded Wyndham owner. I have given my use rights to the trust, but I still own what I own. Just like  Worldmark the Club owns real property, so do I own the real estate

Wyndham can only merge what they can merge which is what they own. They don't own the resorts in either clu

I see no reason why Wyndham couldn't deposit the Worldmark credits it controls into the trust. And issue symbolic points to represent that ownership. 

They wouldn't be able to deposit credits they don't own any more than they can deposit the Pahio weeks I own

The merger if it was to happen would be a merger of use rights  and not every owner would be required to participate

Instead of looking at this from the perspective of what they can't do, look at what they can do.  

Bottom line is that what makes a collection of resort properties  a club is the management and developer rights.  And Wyndham and Worldmark are effectively, already merged in those areas


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

Yes Ron, you own a fractional interest in some Real Estate. But you have assigned the majority of the rights associated with that real estate to the trust in exchange for points. You even assigned your voting rights in the HOA that governs and maintains that real estate to Wyndham.

If WM members were to approve a merger into Club Wyndham, what rights would you assert to stop such a merger? Have you ever been asked to vote on anything regarding the trust?


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## raygo123 (Dec 20, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> Worldmark is not a trust like Club Wyndham. It is a non-profit mutual benefit corporation. Members are essentially shareholders.
> 
> A Trust is a different legal entity. Trusts don't have members, they have beneficiaries. Beneficiaries typically don't have many voting rights. Therein lies the important distinction between the two Club's - the Trustee completely controls Club Wyndham. On the WM side, at least we have the illusion of democracy.


At one of the presentations I attended i was told it would be easier for me to get into a WM than a WM owner.  I was under the impression that the property is managed by Wyndham.  Then there's the trust which is made up of a trust created by Wyndham which contains all converted deeds and what wyndham inherited.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever (Dec 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> At one of the presentations I attended i was told it would be easier for me to get into a WM than a WM owner.  I was under the impression that the property is managed by Wyndham.  Then there's the trust which is made up of a trust created by Wyndham which contains all converted deeds and what wyndham inherited.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


A case of when lips are moving.  When you buy from Wyndham, you can only book WM resorts at 10th month.  WM owners book at 13th month.  Highly sought after resorts won't have any availability for Wyndham Pass owners.


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> At one of the presentations I attended i was told it would be easier for me to get into a WM than a WM owner.  I was under the impression that the property is managed by Wyndham.  Then there's the trust which is made up of a trust created by Wyndham which contains all converted deeds and what wyndham inherited.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Like most things the sales people say, there is a wisp of truth somewhere in there.

I belong to both systems, and I have observed that - for whatever reason - that Club Wyndham does not book up as quickly as WM does. So yes, at some WM resorts where Club Wyndham also has their own inventory* - there can be available units on the Club Wyndham side, when no units are available on the WM side.

But not true as a general rule.

*Wyndham had to take back some units at the under-utilized WM resorts as a result of the Wixon class action settlement - most notably WM Anaheim and WM Indio. They placed the received units into Club Wyndham. There also some resorts that where developed both for WM and Club Wyndham (i.e. Ocean Walk).


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> Yes Ron, you own a fractional interest in some Real Estate. But you have assigned the majority of the rights associated with that real estate to the trust in exchange for points. You even assigned your voting rights in the HOA that governs and maintains that real estate to Wyndham.
> 
> If WM members were to approve a merger into Club Wyndham, what rights would you assert to stop such a merger? Have you ever been asked to vote on anything regarding the trust?



I do get to vote at the hoa meetings 

You ask what rights I would assert to stop a merger. That's my point I don't have any and neither do the Worldmark owners. If Wyndham wants to merge the two clubs, I think they can do it

The owners of the avenue plaza resort didn't have a say when their resort was brought into club Wyndham and neither did the Pahio owners and neither did the owners at riverside suites. All they knew is that one day Wyndham points owners were suddenly able to stay at their resorts 

In the merger I imagine,  Worldmark the club would still exist (just like the Pahio weeks owners still exist) but wyndham,by depositing credits into the Fairshare trust, and issuing points symbolic of those credits, could open up Worldmark resorts to Wyndham owners

The question is, why would they? 
There's no money in it


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## ecwinch (Dec 20, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I do get to vote at the hoa meetings
> 
> You ask what rights I would assert to stop a merger. That's my point I don't have any and neither do the Worldmark owners. If Wyndham wants to merge the two clubs, I think they can do it
> 
> ...



What you are describing is not a merger. That was the original question - why have two brands? The answer is that Wyndham does not have the unilateral authority to merge the two brands into one.


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## ronparise (Dec 21, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> What you are describing is not a merger. That was the original question - why have two brands? The answer is that Wyndham does not have the unilateral authority to merge the two brands into one.



I agree completely. Blending the two clubs into one is impossible. 

Creating easy exchanges, however,  would accomplish pretty much the same thing.


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## Ty1on (Dec 21, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I agree completely. Blending the two clubs into one is impossible.
> 
> Creating easy exchanges, however,  would accomplish pretty much the same thing.



Club Pass


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## ronparise (Dec 21, 2016)

Ty1on said:


> Club Pass



So back to my earlier comment in this thread.  If Wyndham wanted a "merger" they could open up Club Pass to all members


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 21, 2016)

I have club pass but hate club pass because it is just another revenue generate for wyndham.  Why I do not get my VIP perks in club pass, no free reservations, no free upgrades, no discounts on points.  It is annoying which is why I rarely use Club Pass unless I really have to. Don't want to give Wyndham more revenue than I have to.


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## ecwinch (Dec 21, 2016)

ronparise said:


> So back to my earlier comment in this thread.  If Wyndham wanted a "merger" they could open up Club Pass to all members



It must be cold in Florida and your bored. Because your arguments are becoming circular in nature, as you have already stated why they wont do that.



Sandy VDH said:


> I have club pass but hate club pass because it is just another revenue generate for wyndham.  Why I do not get my VIP perks in club pass, no free reservations, no free upgrades, no discounts on points.  It is annoying which is why I rarely use Club Pass unless I really have to. Don't want to give Wyndham more revenue than I have to.



I think that would be great also. But they don't have the right to take inventory out at the 60 day mark like they do in Club Wyndham, so those benefits would cost them more.


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## dominidude (Dec 21, 2016)

Whichway said:


> I attended my first owner's update in a while and found out Wyndham removed the ability for resale owners to book Worldmark properties (having to call in and the $99 fee deterred me from bothering).



While technically, that is true, it seems to me that this rule is not zealously enforced. 

You can try to make the booking and if the customer rep doesnt catch you, you'll probably wont get caught later on.

And if the customer rep DOES catch you, you can try calling later and to get a different rep. I booked an WM property with resale Club Wyndham points once. I didnt know the rule at the time I made the booking and the rep didnt ask. YMMV.


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## Ty1on (Dec 22, 2016)

dominidude said:


> While technically, that is true, it seems to me that this rule is not zealously enforced.
> 
> You can try to make the booking and if the customer rep doesnt catch you, you'll probably wont get caught later on.
> 
> And if the customer rep DOES catch you, you can try calling later and to get a different rep. I booked an WM property with resale Club Wyndham points once. I didnt know the rule at the time I made the booking and the rep didnt ask. YMMV.



What property did you book?


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## JohnPaul (Dec 24, 2016)

I've never tried to do a Club Pass reservation but I'm guessing the enforcement on the WM side is better.  WM points are clearly bucketed.  One's you bought from WM or prior to a fixed date (Nov 5, 2006) are in the WM+A bucket and resale are in the WM bucket.  You must have WM+A points to book Club Pass or Australia/NZ.


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## dominidude (Dec 25, 2016)

Ty1on said:


> What property did you book?



San Diego Inn at the Park


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 25, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> But they don't have the right to take inventory out at the 60 day mark like they do in Club Wyndham, so those benefits would cost them more.



In the past, prior to Club Pass, a few Worldmarks were available via Wyndham.  The VIP discount did apply at the 60 day mark, and I did not have to pay for the reservation.  I miss that.  I would use the TX worldmark properties more often if I did not have to pay full points and a transaction fee.


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## Ty1on (Dec 27, 2016)

dominidude said:


> San Diego Inn at the Park


That's been seen by others in Wyndham inventory.....Not sure how, but it seems Wyndham somehow has a small piece of this one.


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## dominidude (Dec 28, 2016)

Ty1on said:


> That's been seen by others in Wyndham inventory.....Not sure how, but it seems Wyndham somehow has a small piece of this one.



While I dont doubt that there may be some club wyndham inventory in this resort, I was charged the $99 exchange associated with the club pass exchange. I did not make a club wyndham reservation into this resort, I made a club pass exchange into this resort, which technically I shouldnt have been able to make.
But I'll remember what you said, and make sure I look at availability under club Wyndham before trying to make another a club pass exchange.


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## DeeDibble (Dec 31, 2016)

Richelle said:


> From what I understand, Worldmark gives Wyndham locations in the northwest that they did not have before.  Here is the excuse for not allowing resale points to be used for WorldMark resorts.  BTW, you book WorldMark resorts through Club pass and you have to call a VC to do it.  It cannot be done online at the moment.
> 
> *Why is it required to use developer-purchased points for WYNDHAM Club Pass?* _WYNDHAM Club Pass is a program provided by the developer to CLUB WYNDHAM owners. This program expands resort choices and availability to the members, using the breadth and depth of the entire Wyndham brand. The developer has made a significant financial commitment to implement this program and therefore is only available to members who buy their points directly from the developer._
> 
> ...


I would probably just buy Worldmark on Ebay as well...... they just keep reinventing the wheel to keep owners running on the hamster wheel


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## pedro47 (Jan 3, 2017)

Wow!!!! Worldmark does sound great on paper.


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