# Hyatt Portfolio Points Program



## Kal

The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.

Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.

The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.

Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.

Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).

Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.

Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.


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## lizap

Kal said:


> The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.
> 
> Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.
> 
> The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.
> 
> Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.
> 
> Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).
> 
> Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.
> 
> Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.



Kal, can you more specifically explain (maybe give an example) on the potential impact on waitlist for HRC owners?  Thanks.


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## WalnutBaron

Thanks, Kal, for your insights, which are always expertly and cogently expressed. My takeaways from your summary, fwiw:

When the weasels told you there would be LOTS more inventory at hard-to-secure resorts in the future, they're obviously counting on converting LOTS more HRC owners--and it appears that is not going well. That's the only economical way to obtain that inventory, since the alternative--exercising ROFR on a large scale--is a huge cash drain on ILG and Hyatt.
I agree that the sharing of wait lists between HPP and HRC would most definitely put pressure on HRC owners and would diminish the value we all currently enjoy by being able to pretty readily get trades using our CUP points. You correctly point out that the rules clearly state that HRC and HPP are separate ownership trusts with separate lists, so the merging of those lists cannot be accomplished under the current rules. 
Does this prevent ILG/Hyatt from attempting to change the rules in the future? No. Which means that HRC owners must remain vigilant, especially if the HPP sales push ultimately proves to bomb out, which appears to be the case at least thus far.
The chutzpah of ILG with this program is pretty astounding: they actually expect HRC owners to place their unit(s) in the HPP, while covering the cost of *two* maintenance fees? Wow. 
And then there's the buy-back program, which--as you point out--forces HPP owners who decide they've bought a lemon to sell back their points only to Hyatt at an undetermined price which will most certainly not be what they paid for those points. That's not just misleading, but truly confiscatory.
I think those of us who own HRC realize what a great program we have. We'd better be prepared to work hard to defend it, because clearly the parent company doesn't like it nearly as well as we do.


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## lizap

WalnutBaron said:


> Thanks, Kal, for your insights, which are always expertly and cogently expressed. My takeaways from your summary, fwiw:
> 
> When the weasels told you there would be LOTS more inventory at hard-to-secure resorts in the future, they're obviously counting on converting LOTS more HRC owners--and it appears that is not going well. That's the only economical way to obtain that inventory, since the alternative--exercising ROFR on a large scale--is a huge cash drain on ILG and Hyatt.
> I agree that the sharing of wait lists between HPP and HRC would most definitely put pressure on HRC owners and would diminish the value we all currently enjoy by being able to pretty readily get trades using our CUP points. You correctly point out that the rules clearly state that HRC and HPP are separate ownership trusts with separate lists, so the merging of those lists cannot be accomplished under the current rules.
> Does this prevent ILG/Hyatt from attempting to change the rules in the future? No. Which means that HRC owners must remain vigilant, especially if the HPP sales push ultimately proves to bomb out, which appears to be the case at least thus far.
> The chutzpah of ILG with this program is pretty astounding: they actually expect HRC owners to place their unit(s) in the HPP, while covering the cost of *two* maintenance fees? Wow.
> And then there's the buy-back program, which--as you point out--forces HPP owners who decide they've bought a lemon to sell back their points only to Hyatt at an undetermined price which will most certainly not be what they paid for those points. That's not just misleading, but truly confiscatory.
> I think those of us who own HRC realize what a great program we have. We'd better be prepared to work hard to defend it, because clearly the parent company doesn't like it nearly as well as we do.



Unfortunately, they're trying to make money off a mature product by hurting HRC owners.  I wonder how long it will take for them to figure out their plan isn't working or not working as fast as they want. They could get more inventory from more HRC owners by allowing conversion to HPP for a nominal fee, ala Marriott.


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## Kal

lizap said:


> Kal, can you more specifically explain (maybe give an example) on the potential impact on waitlist for HRC owners?  Thanks.



The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List.  The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”.  If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner  enters the list one minute later, they should be #7.  IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher.   If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.


 The position of an owner  here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.


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## heathpack

Kal, when you say you can elect to convert your unit to HPP for a year, but then  you pay MF on your unit plus on 600 points, are you saying that the only people who can do this are people who buy into the HPP?

Or, even those of us who don’t buy in can pay our own MF + the MF on 600 points once each year to temporarily participate in HPP?


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## lizap

Kal said:


> The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List.  The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”.  If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner  enters the list one minute later, they should be #7.  IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher.   If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.
> 
> 
> The position of an owner  here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.



So, essentially, the internal trading system of HRC, as we have known it, would be over. Why don't they just tell us we have to covert in order to continue to be able to exchange into other HRC resorts?


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## Sapper

Kal, thank you for this.  You are a great resource to the community.

I am sure their lawyers have been all over this to make sure they are not crossing lines with regards to mixing the two pools and wait lists.  Is it possible what the sales weasel meant by "priority" is the HPP gains access to the wait list more than 12 months out, hence, they have priority over HRC in the sense that if they make the wait list request at 13 months, then they have priority over an HRC member who makes the same reservation at 12 months?  -OR- did the sales weasel specifically state that "priority" means that IF an HRC member is #6 on the wait list, and an HPP member makes the exact same request, then they are placed at #5 ahead of the HRC member?  If it's the first, I'm not too worried about it.  If it is the second, then that becomes a conflict.


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## Sapper

heathpack, if I understand it correctly, you would need to buy the points at $20/per then pay maintenance on both your owned unit plus the HPP points... every year.  The only temporary part would be whether you want to use your owned unit as owned or deposit it into the HPP.

lizap, I don't think trading is over as we know it.  Based on what has been said, and what we have seen so far, assuming the HPP is successful (and I'm not sure it will be), there would be only minor changes.  You would still be able to exchange like you currently do today.


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## WalnutBaron

lizap said:


> So, essentially, the internal trading system of HRC, as we have known it, would be over. Why don't they just tell us we have to covert in order to continue to be able to exchange into other HRC resorts?


Because you don't. Your HRC ownership* has not changed, nor have your exchange rights*. What Kal is warning against is the possibility that ILG will breach the line between the two trusts and allow HPP owners to gain priority for exchanges into HRC. Under the rules of both trusts, this cannot be done unless an HRC owner willingly gives up his rights for a year by buying into the HPP for the year in question. As Kal has pointed out, that requires the HRC owner to pay maintenance fees into *both* HRC and HPP for that given year--yet another reason why HRC owners would be sorely persuaded not to make this conversion. (The only reason I can think of is if they just *have* to get the exchange rights into the HPP inventory--either for HKB or the new Key West property yet to be announced.)

As Kal has also pointed out, if ILG decides to breach that line and allow the HPP owners to gain priority access, that would be grounds for legal action. There are two scenarios which complicate the matter: 1) how are HRC owners going to know their priority has been given to an HPP owner unless they're told so? For example, none of us currently  has any idea when we place our names on a wait list now what position we're in to get the exchange, so how would we know in the future?; 2) ILG could try the subversive--but legal--route of putting out a referendum of all HRC owners to vote to change the rules. They'd work hard to highlight all the reasons owners should vote for the rules change, and they would also try to bury the effects of the real consequences of such a change. And any attempt by alert owners to mount a campaign to defeat such a measure is grievously hampered by HRC owners' inability to get hold of an ownership list, much less raise the money in a short period of time to educate HRC owners on why such a change is a terrible idea.


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## Tucsonadventurer

WalnutBaron said:


> Because you don't. Your HRC ownership* has not changed, nor have your exchange rights*. What Kal is warning against is the possibility that ILG will breach the line between the two trusts and allow HPP owners to gain priority for exchanges into HRC. Under the rules of both trusts, this cannot be done unless an HRC owner willingly gives up his rights for a year by buying into the HPP for the year in question. As Kal has pointed out, that requires the HRC owner to pay maintenance fees into *both* HRC and HPP for that given year--yet another reason why HRC owners would be sorely persuaded not to make this conversion. (The only reason I can think of is if they just *have* to get the exchange rights into the HPP inventory--either for HKB or the new Key West property yet to be announced.)
> 
> As Kal has also pointed out, if ILG decides to breach that line and allow the HPP owners to gain priority access, that would be grounds for legal action. There are two scenarios which complicate the matter: 1) how are HRC owners going to know their priority has been given to an HPP owner unless they're told so? For example, none of us currently  has any idea when we place our names on a wait list now what position we're in to get the exchange, so how would we know in the future?; 2) ILG could try the subversive--but legal--route of putting out a referendum of all HRC owners to vote to change the rules. They'd work hard to highlight all the reasons owners should vote for the rules change, and they would also try to bury the effects of the real consequences of such a change. And any attempt by alert owners to mount a campaign to defeat such a measure is grievously hampered by HRC owners' inability to get hold of an ownership list, much less raise the money in a short period of time to educate HRC owners on why such a change is a terrible idea.


I agree that the waiting list is an unknown, we have no way of knowing where we are on it or if it is honored. We just tried to make an online reservation and were told we needed to pay an additional 42 on our Beach House. We had just paid in full a month ago and had our records to prove it. After 1 1/2 hrs on the phone they admitted they made an error and booked for us at the online price BUT in the meantime we had many wait list requests which we will never know if we missed out on.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Kal said:


> The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.
> 
> Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.
> 
> The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.
> 
> Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.
> 
> Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).
> 
> Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.
> 
> Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.


Kal,
Did they mention Hawaii joining the portfolio program. They told us in our update that eventually ALL Hyatt properties would be in the portfolio program. Is that just talk? Folks that have gone to Hawaii updates are being told that Hawaii will NOT be joining portfolio. What is your take?


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## Sapper

Tucsonadventurer said:


> I agree that the waiting list is an unknown, we have no way of knowing where we are on it or if it is honored. We just tried to make an online reservation and were told we needed to pay an additional 42 on our Beach House. We had just paid in full a month ago and had our records to prove it. After 1 1/2 hrs on the phone they admitted they made an error and booked for us at the online price BUT in the meantime we had many wait list requests which we will never know if we missed out on.



I had a similar amount due after I had paid my Beach House dues.  I paid it the first time because I did not know any better.  It then showed up again on the second reservation I tried to make.  I called and talked with them, and was told there was an adjustment in dues after the bills went out or some such garbage (requiring HBH owners to pay additional dues).  However, I was told since I had paid it the first time, it should be marked as paid, and not come back up.  The guy manually removed it and put the reservation in.


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## scsu_hockey_fan

Remember HPC owners don't have access to HRC till 6 months out. I would think the request list would be one shared one. I think the priority thing might be amongst the HPC group depending upon their points tier. I don't see how a hpc could trump the spot of a HRC on the list. But could see a hpc owner who owns a lot of points could trump another hpc owner on the Hrc waitlist who has a Lower tier status





Kal said:


> The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List.  The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”.  If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner  enters the list one minute later, they should be #7.  IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher.   If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.
> 
> 
> The position of an owner  here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.


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## Sapper

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Remember HPC owners don't have access to HRC till 6 months out. I would think the request list would be one shared one. I think the priority thing might be amongst the HPC group depending upon their points tier. I don't see how a hpc could trump the spot of a HRC on the list. But could see a hpc owner who owns a lot of points could trump another hpc owner on the Hrc waitlist who has a Lower tier status



I believe it is the other way around.  HRC has access to HPP at six months, HPP has access to HRC at 12 months (and possibly earlier based on this "priority" thing).  Though you bring up a good point, might a higher tier HPP owner have some kind of priority over a lower tier HPP owner?


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## Kal

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Kal,
> Did they mention Hawaii joining the portfolio program. They told us in our update that eventually ALL Hyatt properties would be in the portfolio program. Is that just talk? Folks that have gone to Hawaii updates are being told that Hawaii will NOT be joining portfolio. What is your take?


Hawaii is NOT in the HPP.


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## Kal

heathpack said:


> Kal, when you say you can elect to convert your unit to HPP for a year, but then  you pay MF on your unit plus on 600 points, are you saying that the only people who can do this are people who buy into the HPP?
> 
> Or, even those of us who don’t buy in can pay our own MF + the MF on 600 points once each year to temporarily participate in HPP?


To participate in the HPP you must meet the minimum 660 point entry level.  You then pay an annual M/F on the 660 points.  You are then limited to 660 point usage which might be just one Saturday.  You then have the annual option to place your HRC unit(s) into the HPP.  The condition is the HRC M/F is paid and you make the decision in the first 12 weeks of the calendar year. You can choose to do nothing. Once you are a HPP member (i.e. you own at least 660 points) you pay the HPP M/F every year.  The status of your HRC deed remains unchanged.  The only variable is if you place your HRC unit in the Portfolio for a year or not.


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## heathpack

Kal said:


> To participate in the HPP you must meet the minimum 660 point entry level.  You then pay an annual M/F on the 660 points.  You are then limited to 660 point usage which might be just one Saturday.  You then have the annual option to place your HRC unit(s) into the HPP.  The condition is the HRC M/F is paid and you make the decision in the first 12 weeks of the calendar year. You can choose to do nothing. Once you are a HPP member (i.e. you own at least 660 points) you pay the HPP M/F every year.  The status of your HRC deed remains unchanged.  The only variable is if you place your HRC unit in the Portfolio for a year or not.



Wow that seems like a really convoluted system.

The thing everyone insists on is that HRC units need to stay in a HRC pool while HPP units stay in the HPP pool.  I agree that makes sense and it seems like that’s how it should work, from an ethical standpoint.

However, I have always had the impression that HRC club use was different from the way many timeshares work.  My impression was always:  if you decide not to use your owned unit, you basically turn it over to Hyatt to use as they see fit.  When Hyatt only had two pools of users- HRC members and Interval exchangers, it was pretty straightforward: HRC members got the pick of the litter and II exchangers got the dregs.  Everyone was pretty happy with that.  Now with another pool of people in the mix, the HPP owners, who are going to be rightfully livid if they can’t get Hyatt internal trades, I think there is real incentive to screw HRC members.

So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement?  My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit.  Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it.  Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from?  Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?


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## Tucsonadventurer

Kal said:


> Hawaii is NOT in the HPP.


I know that it's currently not a part of it, just curious about future plans. Sales in Florida and AZ ensure us it will be in it that plans are underway to include Maui in H.P.P. while Hawaii sales insist that it will not ever be a part of portfolio. I guess time will tell.


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## ivywag

heathpack said:


> Wow that seems like a really convoluted system.
> 
> The thing everyone insists on is that HRC units need to stay in a HRC pool while HPP units stay in the HPP pool.  I agree that makes sense and it seems like that’s how it should work, from an ethical standpoint.
> 
> However, I have always had the impression that HRC club use was different from the way many timeshares work.  My impression was always:  if you decide not to use your owned unit, you basically turn it over to Hyatt to use as they see fit.  When Hyatt only had two pools of users- HRC members and Interval exchangers, it was pretty straightforward: HRC members got the pick of the litter and II exchangers got the dregs.  Everyone was pretty happy with that.  Now with another pool of people in the mix, the HPP owners, who are going to be rightfully livid if they can’t get Hyatt internal trades, I think there is real incentive to screw HRC members.
> 
> So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement?  My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit.  Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it.  Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from?  Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?



I spent some time this afternoon reading the Club to Club Exchange Agreement.  It has been in effect since last year and says that by using the exchange program we are agreeing to its terms.  It says that an HRC member who is also a Trust member MAY be able to convert an HRC unit to HPC for a given year as several have stated above. It goes on to say that not all HRC owners are eligible for the conversion.  It depends upon the unit, time of year etc and that HVGG decides who is eligible.  It sounds like they only want the good units. It also says that HVGG can coordinate the inventory between the 2 clubs to make sure that it is fair to both clubs.

Additionally it says that during our Club Use Period HPC may reserve HRC available units and during the HPC Reservation Period, HRC owners may reserve HPC units.  I'm not sure why any HRC owners would pay to join HPC since we can reserve the units anyway. This would seem to indicate that if there are units in HPC to support the points that are sold, nothing should change for us since for every unit an HPC member reserves in HRC there will be one available in HPC for one of us to reserve.  However, if they are selling more points than they have units or if they add new resorts that we don't have access to and and sell points being supported by those units, it could put more pressure on availability of the more desirable HRC units by having more HPC people eligible to reserve those units while we can't reserve the new resorts.  It doesn't really talk much about the wait list. 

I encourage anyone who hasn't read that agreement to do so. It's on the website.  If you have read it, please let us know if I am interpreting it correctly.


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## Sapper

heathpack said:


> So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement?  My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit.  Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it.  Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from?  Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?



I want to say it is in here: http://www.bywindkal.com/HVOPLAN3.pdf

I don't have the time right now to read through it, or I'd cite a location.


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## scsu_hockey_fan

Yes you are correct. Hpc has access to availability in Hrc at 12 months out. And HRC has access to hpc at 6 months out. This could create more competition for sold out/built out popular Hrc resorts.I suspose it will help that they are adding a key west reort. Thankfully there are both clubs, with ample units in each club,  where I like to go! 


Sapper said:


> I believe it is the other way around.  HRC has access to HPP at six months, HPP has access to HRC at 12 months (and possibly earlier based on this "priority" thing).  Though you bring up a good point, might a higher tier HPP owner have some kind of priority over a lower tier HPP owner?


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## ivywag

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Yes you are correct. Hpc has access to availability in Hrc at 12 months out. And HRC has access to hpc at 6 months out. This could create more competition for sold out/built out popular Hrc resorts.I suspose it will help that they are adding a key west reort. Thankfully there are both clubs, with ample units in each club,  where I like to go!


We love Key West, too. In fact we're going to HSH in two weeks!  My parents moved to Islamorada when I was in college and lived there for the rest of their lives so it's a bit nostalgic for me. We try to go once a year if we can.  Regarding the Club to Club Exchange Agreement--it says that during the "Club Use Period" HPC has access to HRC.  That's 6 months out that HPC has access to HRC inventory.  Then it says that HRC owners can book HPC during the HPC Exchange Reservation period. Since we have not been made privy to any HPC info, I don't know how long that is!


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## ivywag

Help needed!  I remember reading on this forum that Hyatt has a kiosk in downtown Key West where the offer to attend the "owners update" is $150 instead of the $150 offered at the resort. I can't seem to find that thread.  Can anyone tell me where the kiosk is?  I'd like to sign up today.


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## Cropman

When I was there at beginning of February, there was one right next to Two Friends Restaurant.  And, I think, there is one at the corner of Duval and Caroline.


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## ivywag

Thanks!  I'll go sign up and we'll find out if there's anything new.


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## Tucsonadventurer

ivywag said:


> Help needed!  I remember reading on this forum that Hyatt has a kiosk in downtown Key West where the offer to attend the "owners update" is $150 instead of the $150 offered at the resort. I can't seem to find that thread.  Can anyone tell me where the kiosk is?  I'd like to sign up today.


At the Hyatt hotel they also offer more


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## Kal

If Hyatt calls you prior to check-in to set up an appointment for the "owners update (HPP sales pitch)" they will give you $75.  If you set up an appointment after check-in you will get $100.  If you go to the Kiosk, you will get $150.

If married, both husband and wife must attend the pitch.  If only one spouse attends the presentation, you will not be paid and maybe not even be allowed to attend.


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## ivywag

Thanks all! We ended up with $100. I went to the Kiosk and the guy was clueless. He didn’t seem to have any interest in Hyatt. I asked several questions and he never even tried to sign us up. Just chillin! As for the presentation, I’ll post observations on a different thread.


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## snettleship

I just went through the pitch today in Key West and try and parrot it back using my unit as an example.  My unit was 1880 points and is now 2200 as they are reworking the point values based on the usual seasonal demand.  Some up, some down.  Lets go with the 660 point example given in the pitch for the Portfolio Program.  Purchasing the 660 points in the new Portfolio Program would make the total 2860 for my unit for trading purposes.  Cost is 660*20/point: $13200 (your mileage may vary over time+closing cost per state).
- allows use of 2860 in the Portfolio.  If you don't purchase, you basically have what you have now with CUP, LCUP....
- the new program has per day points/per season week.  In my 2BR Key West example of a 2200/week, 
           Sun-Fri is 220 points/day
           Sat is 880 points
           Total still 2200
- You can now book stays per/day.  So, you can book Sun-Fri for a total of 1320 points leaving 2860-1320=1440 points
- You can then book another stay using those remaining points
- That's how they rationalize the additional MF since you now have enough points for 2 stays.  The reason for not having the more expensive resorts on the list is it would skew the .83cent/660 conversion to make the MF higher.
- A good feature, unlike the Sheraton/SPG point system you can roll any points up to 2 years and there was some discussion of a further 2 years but maybe that was banking them into II
- You can also transfer them to Hyatt hotel points
- The "priority" access to booking as I understood is the Portfolio members can book/wait list 15 months ahead where an existing CUP member is still 6 months to request an exchange from existing inventory.  I assume it is first-in-first-book bases on the inventory depending on other Portfolio members making reservations similar to when you get to your 6 months before owned date your unit automatically goes into the CUP inventory.  I would assume then the Portfolio members are on the wait list earlier thus they have "priority" over the existing members that are just coming onto the wait list in CUP.  I can't confirm that, it is the impression I got.

So, that is what I heard or think I heard from this particular pitch at this particular time.


----------



## Kal

snettleship said:


> I just went through the pitch today in Key West and try and parrot it back using my unit as an example.  My unit was 1880 points and is now 2200 as they are reworking the point values based on the usual seasonal demand.  Some up, some down.  Lets go with the 660 point example given in the pitch for the Portfolio Program.  Purchasing the 660 points in the new Portfolio Program would make the total 2860 for my unit for trading purposes.  Cost is 660*20/point: $13200 (your mileage may vary over time+closing cost per state).
> - allows use of 2860 in the Portfolio.  If you don't purchase, you basically have what you have now with CUP, LCUP....
> - the new program has per day points/per season week.  In my 2BR Key West example of a 2200/week,
> Sun-Fri is 220 points/day
> Sat is 880 points
> Total still 2200
> - You can now book stays per/day.  So, you can book Sun-Fri for a total of 1320 points leaving 2860-1320=1440 points
> - You can then book another stay using those remaining points
> - That's how they rationalize the additional MF since you now have enough points for 2 stays.  The reason for not having the more expensive resorts on the list is it would skew the .83cent/660 conversion to make the MF higher.
> - A good feature, unlike the Sheraton/SPG point system you can roll any points up to 2 years and there was some discussion of a further 2 years but maybe that was banking them into II
> - You can also transfer them to Hyatt hotel points
> - The "priority" access to booking as I understood is the Portfolio members can book/wait list 15 months ahead where an existing CUP member is still 6 months to request an exchange from existing inventory.  I assume it is first-in-first-book bases on the inventory depending on other Portfolio members making reservations similar to when you get to your 6 months before owned date your unit automatically goes into the CUP inventory.  I would assume then the Portfolio members are on the wait list earlier thus they have "priority" over the existing members that are just coming onto the wait list in CUP.  I can't confirm that, it is the impression I got.
> 
> So, that is what I heard or think I heard from this particular pitch at this particular time.


The bottom line is availability of Portfolio units to book.  As of February, there were about 20 units in the Portfolio at Sunset Harbor.  The remaining 2100 units are in the HRC (legacy program).  Of those 20 units, one was in April, one in May and the balance in mid-summer.


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## Tucsonadventurer

snettleship said:


> I just went through the pitch today in Key West and try and parrot it back using my unit as an example.  My unit was 1880 points and is now 2200 as they are reworking the point values based on the usual seasonal demand.  Some up, some down.  Lets go with the 660 point example given in the pitch for the Portfolio Program.  Purchasing the 660 points in the new Portfolio Program would make the total 2860 for my unit for trading purposes.  Cost is 660*20/point: $13200 (your mileage may vary over time+closing cost per state).
> - allows use of 2860 in the Portfolio.  If you don't purchase, you basically have what you have now with CUP, LCUP....
> - the new program has per day points/per season week.  In my 2BR Key West example of a 2200/week,
> Sun-Fri is 220 points/day
> Sat is 880 points
> Total still 2200
> - You can now book stays per/day.  So, you can book Sun-Fri for a total of 1320 points leaving 2860-1320=1440 points
> - You can then book another stay using those remaining points
> - That's how they rationalize the additional MF since you now have enough points for 2 stays.  The reason for not having the more expensive resorts on the list is it would skew the .83cent/660 conversion to make the MF higher.
> - A good feature, unlike the Sheraton/SPG point system you can roll any points up to 2 years and there was some discussion of a further 2 years but maybe that was banking them into II
> - You can also transfer them to Hyatt hotel points
> - The "priority" access to booking as I understood is the Portfolio members can book/wait list 15 months ahead where an existing CUP member is still 6 months to request an exchange from existing inventory.  I assume it is first-in-first-book bases on the inventory depending on other Portfolio members making reservations similar to when you get to your 6 months before owned date your unit automatically goes into the CUP inventory.  I would assume then the Portfolio members are on the wait list earlier thus they have "priority" over the existing members that are just coming onto the wait list in CUP.  I can't confirm that, it is the impression I got.
> 
> So, that is what I heard or think I heard from this particular pitch at this particular time.


Thanks but I was under the impression we could get on the wait list even before we had points at 18 mos to get our priority rankin


snettleship said:


> I just went through the pitch today in Key West and try and parrot it back using my unit as an example.  My unit was 1880 points and is now 2200 as they are reworking the point values based on the usual seasonal demand.  Some up, some down.  Lets go with the 660 point example given in the pitch for the Portfolio Program.  Purchasing the 660 points in the new Portfolio Program would make the total 2860 for my unit for trading purposes.  Cost is 660*20/point: $13200 (your mileage may vary over time+closing cost per state).
> - allows use of 2860 in the Portfolio.  If you don't purchase, you basically have what you have now with CUP, LCUP....
> - the new program has per day points/per season week.  In my 2BR Key West example of a 2200/week,
> Sun-Fri is 220 points/day
> Sat is 880 points
> Total still 2200
> - You can now book stays per/day.  So, you can book Sun-Fri for a total of 1320 points leaving 2860-1320=1440 points
> - You can then book another stay using those remaining points
> - That's how they rationalize the additional MF since you now have enough points for 2 stays.  The reason for not having the more expensive resorts on the list is it would skew the .83cent/660 conversion to make the MF higher.
> - A good feature, unlike the Sheraton/SPG point system you can roll any points up to 2 years and there was some discussion of a further 2 years but maybe that was banking them into II
> - You can also transfer them to Hyatt hotel points
> - The "priority" access to booking as I understood is the Portfolio members can book/wait list 15 months ahead where an existing CUP member is still 6 months to request an exchange from existing inventory.  I assume it is first-in-first-book bases on the inventory depending on other Portfolio members making reservations similar to when you get to your 6 months before owned date your unit automatically goes into the CUP inventory.  I would assume then the Portfolio members are on the wait list earlier thus they have "priority" over the existing members that are just coming onto the wait list in CUP.  I can't confirm that, it is the impression I got.
> 
> So, that is what I heard or think I heard from this particular pitch at this particular time.


Most of the 6 day portfolio units I saw, included a Sat. I didn't see any online in Florida, Texas A.Z. or .CA that saved you points so not sure how usable the avoiding Sat would be. Maybe waitlist would help


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## stover33

snettleship said:


> I just went through the pitch today in Key West and try and parrot it back using my unit as an example.  My unit was 1880 points and is now 2200 as they are reworking the point values based on the usual seasonal demand.  Some up, some down.  Lets go with the 660 point example given in the pitch for the Portfolio Program.  Purchasing the 660 points in the new Portfolio Program would make the total 2860 for my unit for trading purposes.  Cost is 660*20/point: $13200 (your mileage may vary over time+closing cost per state).
> - allows use of 2860 in the Portfolio.  If you don't purchase, you basically have what you have now with CUP, LCUP....
> - the new program has per day points/per season week.  In my 2BR Key West example of a 2200/week,
> Sun-Fri is 220 points/day
> Sat is 880 points
> Total still 2200
> - You can now book stays per/day.  So, you can book Sun-Fri for a total of 1320 points leaving 2860-1320=1440 points
> - You can then book another stay using those remaining points
> - That's how they rationalize the additional MF since you now have enough points for 2 stays.  The reason for not having the more expensive resorts on the list is it would skew the .83cent/660 conversion to make the MF higher.
> - A good feature, unlike the Sheraton/SPG point system you can roll any points up to 2 years and there was some discussion of a further 2 years but maybe that was banking them into II
> - You can also transfer them to Hyatt hotel points
> - The "priority" access to booking as I understood is the Portfolio members can book/wait list 15 months ahead where an existing CUP member is still 6 months to request an exchange from existing inventory.  I assume it is first-in-first-book bases on the inventory depending on other Portfolio members making reservations similar to when you get to your 6 months before owned date your unit automatically goes into the CUP inventory.  I would assume then the Portfolio members are on the wait list earlier thus they have "priority" over the existing members that are just coming onto the wait list in CUP.  I can't confirm that, it is the impression I got.
> 
> So, that is what I heard or think I heard from this particular pitch at this particular time.



Thanks for all this.  Probably the clearest summary I've read yet.

Bottom line, sounds like we are being asked to pay $13k, plus an extra $550 per year, to be able to get on the CUP waitlist 9 months earlier than regular HRC members, and for the ability to reserve any number of days with any check-in day. Those are the primary benefits.

It does not seem worth the expense however its impact on legacy owners depends on how many people do take the bait and switch over. If enough people joined HPP, it could potentially become next to impossible for a legacy owner to exchange into other Hyatt resorts, because they will always be behind the HPP members on the waitlist.

It may also dampen the resale market.  Many buy in specifically for the points and the ability to exchange.  If exchanges become more difficult it may be a disincentive to buy in via resale.


----------



## ivywag

stover33 said:


> Thanks for all this.  Probably the clearest summary I've read yet.
> 
> Bottom line, sounds like we are being asked to pay $13k, plus an extra $550 per year, to be able to get on the CUP waitlist 9 months earlier than regular HRC members, and for the ability to reserve any number of days with any check-in day. Those are the primary benefits.
> 
> It does not seem worth the expense however its impact on legacy owners depends on how many people do take the bait and switch over. If enough people joined HPP, it could potentially become next to impossible for a legacy owner to exchange into other Hyatt resorts, because they will always be behind the HPP members on the waitlist.
> 
> It may also dampen the resale market.  Many buy in specifically for the points and the ability to exchange.  If exchanges become more difficult it may be a disincentive to buy in via resale.


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## ivywag

The waitlists are separate so an HRC owner on the waitlist should still have first access to and confirmation for the HRC units.


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## WalnutBaron

stover33 said:


> Thanks for all this.  Probably the clearest summary I've read yet.
> 
> Bottom line, sounds like we are being asked to pay $13k, plus an extra $550 per year, to be able to get on the CUP waitlist 9 months earlier than regular HRC members, and for the ability to reserve any number of days with any check-in day. Those are the primary benefits.
> 
> It does not seem worth the expense however its impact on legacy owners depends on how many people do take the bait and switch over. If enough people joined HPP, it could potentially become next to impossible for a legacy owner to exchange into other Hyatt resorts, because they will always be behind the HPP members on the waitlist.
> 
> It may also dampen the resale market.  Many buy in specifically for the points and the ability to exchange.  If exchanges become more difficult it may be a disincentive to buy in via resale.


Incorrect. Remember, the HRC trust is separate and distinct from the HPP trust. Therefore, HRC members are not at a disadvantage unless a huge number of legacy owners pay to convert. Based on the information shared on these boards, that appears unlikely.


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## Sapper

WalnutBaron said:


> Incorrect. Remember, the HRC trust is separate and distinct from the HPP trust. Therefore, HRC members are not at a disadvantage unless a huge number of legacy owners pay to convert. Based on the information shared on these boards, that appears unlikely.



Ya know, I've been thinking about it. Even if conversion from HRC to HPP were free, and it is very far from that, I'm not sure I would do it.... I'm not sure others would either. Part of the beauty of the Hyatt system was that you could get a unit where and when you wanted to be somewhere. The where part even down to the specific unit with a particular location or view. Someone who bought that specific location, time, etc... may be hard pressed to give up their deed. I have heard over and over again, and said it my self, buy where you want to go. Well, anyone who did just that cannot be guaranteed that if they make the conversion that they will be able to use their specific unit, location, week, etc. That is a big turn off for a number of folks who bought in to Hyatt.  Sure, there are folks who bought just for points. These folks may want to convert their unit to HPP. However, the people who bought specifically for points probably did so with maintenance fees per point in mind. The new HPP has a higher maintenance fee per point than a number of the lowest cost maintenance fee properties. 

I guess what I am getting at with the last paragraph is that I was origionally concerned at the possibility of mass conversion when and if Hyatt ever makes it cheap to convert, thus limiting options for the hold out HRC folk. However, the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with the idea that the "hold out HRC folk" may be significantly greater in number than once thought... hence, trading options for HRC may be minimally impacted.


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## ivywag

Sapper said:


> Ya know, I've been thinking about it. Even if conversion from HRC to HPP were free, and it is very far from that, I'm not sure I would do it.... I'm not sure others would either. Part of the beauty of the Hyatt system was that you could get a unit where and when you wanted to be somewhere. The where part even down to the specific unit with a particular location or view. Someone who bought that specific location, time, etc... may be hard pressed to give up their deed. I have heard over and over again, and said it my self, buy where you want to go. Well, anyone who did just that cannot be guaranteed that if they make the conversion that they will be able to use their specific unit, location, week, etc. That is a big turn off for a number of folks who bought in to Hyatt.  Sure, there are folks who bought just for points. These folks may want to convert their unit to HPP. However, the people who bought specifically for points probably did so with maintenance fees per point in mind. The new HPP has a higher maintenance fee per point than a number of the lowest cost maintenance fee properties.
> 
> I guess what I am getting at with the last paragraph is that I was origionally concerned at the possibility of mass conversion when and if Hyatt ever makes it cheap to convert, thus limiting options for the hold out HRC folk. However, the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with the idea that the "hold out HRC folk" may be significantly greater in number than once thought... hence, trading options for HRC may be minimally impacted.


I hope you're right!  We bought at High Sierra when they first opened and were truly happy with the whole system until recently as evidenced by all of our perfect owner surveys.  I really resent that we are not being informed and have to guess how we are affected by HPP.  It seems a bit shady.  They need to give us the details.  My husband and I have never even been informed that there is an HPP. If we didn't belong to TUG we wouldn't have a clue.


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## Sapper

ivywag said:


> I hope you're right!  We bought at High Sierra when they first opened and were truly happy with the whole system until recently as evidenced by all of our perfect owner surveys.  I really resent that we are not being informed and have to guess how we are affected by HPP.  It seems a bit shady.  They need to give us the details.  My husband and I have never even been informed that there is an HPP. If we didn't belong to TUG we wouldn't have a clue.



I agree, if it were not for TUG, we would be pretty clueless about HPP.  I'm sure I would have started asking questions after I saw the difference in booking types.


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## stover33

WalnutBaron said:


> Incorrect. Remember, the HRC trust is separate and distinct from the HPP trust. Therefore, HRC members are not at a disadvantage unless a huge number of legacy owners pay to convert. Based on the information shared on these boards, that appears unlikely.



OK I may have been misunderstanding the separation between the two.

However (not being a lawyer), I am still not convinced that Hyatt cannot simply place a HPP request ahead of a HRC request, and fill it from whichever inventory becomes available.  Is there something in writing that says they cannot do this?

If the two are completely separate, and only a tiny percentage of units are in the HPP trust, how would they ever fill exchange requests for HPP members?


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## WalnutBaron

stover33 said:


> OK I may have been misunderstanding the separation between the two.
> 
> However (not being a lawyer), I am still not convinced that Hyatt cannot simply place a HPP request ahead of a HRC request, and fill it from whichever inventory becomes available.  Is there something in writing that says they cannot do this?
> 
> If the two are completely separate, and only a tiny percentage of units are in the HPP trust, how would they ever fill exchange requests for HPP members?


Theoretically, their inventory grows as their HPP population grows so that this problem takes care of itself. However, what you are describing is certainly possible--and would be a complete violation of the contracts all HRC owners have in their possession. If Hyatt/ILG did what you're suggesting, they would be in breach of contract and open to owner lawsuits. Of course, how an HRC owner would become aware that this is happening and proving it in court would be extremely difficult.


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## Kal

I've talked to various HRC owners who bought into the HPP program.  Here are reasons they provided for the purchase:

You can get every reservation you want at even the most difficult resort
You get "priority" reservation confirmation 18 months in advance
The $2,500 "discount" is a great incentive
In the HRC, we are tired of lack of availability and high costs of renting to fill our multi-week stay


You can stay any number of days
You can keep your deed and have 12 weeks at the beginning of each year to determine if you will give HPP your unit. 
There will be a large number of new resorts which will not be available in HRC

The first set of reasons is absolutely false.  The second set is very questionable.  The HPP sales pitch is carefully designed to provide the buyer with all the knee-jerk incentives to purchase HPP.  The next conversation will be to check back with them to see if the HPP meets those goals.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Kal said:


> I've talked to various HRC owners who bought into the HPP program.  Here are reasons they provided for the purchase:
> 
> You can get every reservation you want at even the most difficult resort
> You get "priority" reservation confirmation 18 months in advance
> The $2,500 "discount" is a great incentive
> In the HRC, we are tired of lack of availability and high costs of renting to fill our multi-week stay
> 
> 
> You can stay any number of days
> You can keep your deed and have 12 weeks at the beginning of each year to determine if you will give HPP your unit.
> There will be a large number of new resorts which will not be available in HRC
> 
> The first set of reasons is absolutely false.  The second set is very questionable.  The HPP sales pitch is carefully designed to provide the buyer with all the knee-jerk incentives to purchase HPP.  The next conversation will be to check back with them to see if the HPP meets those goals.


And the fact that much of this is untrue, is why we have received nothing  in writing .


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## stover33

Kal said:


> I've talked to various HRC owners who bought into the HPP program. Here are reasons they provided for the purchase:
> 
> You can get every reservation you want at even the most difficult resort
> You get "priority" reservation confirmation 18 months in advance



I suppose this is why I am not convinced that they will not simply fill requests from the overall Hyatt pool (whether it be HRC or HPP). 

It seems they are opening themselves up to litigation either way, by making promises to new owners that they cannot fill (due to the limited number of HPP trust units available), or by, as WalnutBaron stated, violating contracts with current HRC owners.

I suppose the "promises" made by sales people are not legally enforceable but they are clearly misleading customers UNLESS (and this is what I suspect will happen), they use HRC units to fill exchange requests for HPP members.  There is simply no other way it could work imo.

Just to clarify... let's say an existing HRC member decides to pay the $13K and "upgrade" to an HPP membership.  Clearly they have to still be able to make exchanges, just as they did before the upgrade.  If, after they upgrade, they can't seem to get anything they want due to lack of available HPP units (whereas before they were often able to make in-club exchanges without much difficulty)... there would be outrage on the part of those who paid a lot of money to upgrade.  The HRC inventory MUST be available to them, or the entire program does not work (or at the very least would take years to scale up to a point where it DOES work).  What am I missing?


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## AJCts411

Just wondering since II and ILG are publicly traded, they would need to publish certain directions they are planing in their prospectus/SEC filing.  It is available online, and at 167 pages...I didn't read it. I wonder if the "plan" is hidden in there? I wouldn't expect details but they are obligated to provide the direction.  google...ILG investor relations...

As an owner in HRC system, I would expect owners would defend their rights if HPP by design (intentional or not) were to negatively affect the "trading power/value" and monetary value of my deed week.  

If II is creating HPP to in a sense to compete against it's self and HRC owners (to generate greater profits), to the determent of HRC, then how is that not actionable? (collusion)  I'm sure II/ILG have lots of legal opinions on this, but at what point do they have, if ever, an obligation to disclose their HPP plans to those in HRC ownership?  

Personally, not worried at all, in fact I think all of this HPP, facts and rumors is solidifying the HRC "reasons to own side".  That is to say use what you bought thinking.


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## Kal

What we are saying here focuses almost entirely on the ability for HPP to reserve something.  We know that the HPP trust will be relatively void of meaningful quality units.  Thus the only avenue is the HRC inventory.  So let's assume HPP has full access to AVAILABLE HRC units.  By far that availability occurs at 6-month prior to occupancy.  If an HPP owner checks out availability at 18, 15 or 12 months prior to occupancy, the options will be almost none.

The wait list is therefore the only choice.  Even though the rules specify two separate wait lists, getting on the HPP wait list will yield little or nothing.  My understanding is the HPP and HRC have full access to each other's available units at the 6-month date.  In the case of there being only ONE wait list for HPP and HRC owners, it's just a date stamp when the request is made.  First come, first served.  For HPP, you would have to own 6600 points to get on the wait list at 18 months, 4400 at 15 months and 2200 at 12 months.  Therefore, IMHO, the threat to HRC is small.


----------



## bdh

stover33 said:


> I suppose this is why I am not convinced that they will not simply fill requests from the overall Hyatt pool (whether it be HRC or HPP).
> 
> It seems they are opening themselves up to litigation either way, by making promises to new owners that they cannot fill (due to the limited number of HPP trust units available), or by, as WalnutBaron stated, violating contracts with current HRC owners.
> 
> I suppose the "promises" made by sales people are not legally enforceable but they are clearly misleading customers UNLESS (and this is what I suspect will happen), they use HRC units to fill exchange requests for HPP members.  There is simply no other way it could work imo.
> 
> Just to clarify... let's say an existing HRC member decides to pay the $13K and "upgrade" to an HPP membership.  Clearly they have to still be able to make exchanges, just as they did before the upgrade.  If, after they upgrade, they can't seem to get anything they want due to lack of available HPP units (whereas before they were often able to make in-club exchanges without much difficulty)... there would be outrage on the part of those who paid a lot of money to upgrade.  The HRC inventory MUST be available to them, or the entire program does not work (or at the very least would take years to scale up to a point where it DOES work).  What am I missing?



FWIW:  Nobody (HRC or HPP) is getting a reservation at 18 months out - 95% of reservations are filled 6 months prior to check in.  HPP buyers have 1st dibs on HPP trust units - the problem with that is the number of trust units available at the various resorts (great selection at Windward Pointe - only 20 or so weeks at Sunset Harbor).  HPP buyers have access to HRC, but only after the HRC owner gives up their deeded week (remember.... no points program can trump a deed).

You are correct, _there will be outrage on the part of those who paid a lot of money to upgrade ..... when they can't seem to get anything they want due to lack of available_ in HPP or HRC.  The sad part is that the HPP sales staff is saying "Oh it will be great, look at all the resorts you have access to" - however, the HPP buyer is hearing " Oh it will be great, look at all the resorts I can get into".  Using Sunset Harbor as the example, its been a challenge to exchange into for years, adding more exchange requests via the HPP buyer is not going to make more units appear at HSH.  Note: used HSH as it has the highest (or 2nd highest - toggles back and forth btwn HSH and HHI) year round occupancy rate of 92-94% and the highest rate of HRPP reservations of 90%.  So until the HSH deeded owners give up their week, nobody (HPP or HRC exchangers) has access or priority to HSH - but a totally different story at Windward Pointe as Hyatt dumped all the unsold unit/weeks into the HPP trust, so lots of access for HPP and HRC exchangers there.  

Unlike the HRC owner that is guaranteed a specific week/unit, an HPP owner is not guaranteed anything - unfortunately, the HPP owner has a handful of points that are pretty much worthless unless they find a resort that they can exchange into.


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## ivywag

I just re-read the Club to Club Exchange Agreement that is posted on the website.  Section 7 (pgs. 6,7, and 8) addresses reservation rights.  It looks to me like an HPP owner has access to any HRC Club Use unit which becomes available during the year as long as they have points in their account. Those would all be in CUP.  It also states that there are 2 waitlists. If the HPC owner has a request on his (HPC) waitlist for a specific week and that week becomes available in the HRC, will he be confirmed into the HRC unit given that he has a right to any HRC unit that is in CUP?  Some of those become available when an owner makes an exchange before 6 months out. To try to simplify--would an HPP owner on the HPP waitlist be confirmed into an HRC unit?   If that's the case, having 2 waitlists doesn't do us much good. Does anyone know if the Portfolio owners have access to all (HRC&HPP) of the inventory on the website?  It seems like they might since we have access to Portfolio units.


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## heathpack

ivywag said:


> I just re-read the Club to Club Exchange Agreement that is posted on the website.  Section 7 (pgs. 6,7, and 8) addresses reservation rights.  It looks to me like an HPP owner has access to any HRC Club Use unit which becomes available during the year as long as they have points in their account. Those would all be in CUP.  It also states that there are 2 waitlists. If the HPC owner has a request on his (HPC) waitlist for a specific week and that week becomes available in the HRC, will he be confirmed into the HRC unit given that he has a right to any HRC unit that is in CUP?  Some of those become available when an owner makes an exchange before 6 months out. To try to simplify--would an HPP owner on the HPP waitlist be confirmed into an HRC unit?   If that's the case, having 2 waitlists doesn't do us much good. Does anyone know if the Portfolio owners have access to all (HRC&HPP) of the inventory on the website?  It seems like they might since we have access to Portfolio units.



I know people here on TUG keep saying that HPP owners cant access HRC units, but I agree it sounds like they might be able to.

On practical grounds, no HRC units can possibly become available until 12 months out, so in reality I think it might work out to:
A.  18 months ahead, only HPP units can possibly be available, and only HPP owners can access this inventory.  Fair enough, since its HPP inventory for sure.

B.  12 months ahead, both HRC and HPP are able to access HRC units.  Is there one pool of inventory that both groups have access to?  If so, how is priority determined?  If this is the case, the solution is going to be deciding where you want to go early and getting on the waitlist as soon as you can.  It can be an expensive proposition if you're not able to plan >12 mo ahead, because it will cost money to book your reservation and more money to cancel your reservation if the dates don't work for you and then more money to make another reservation.  Unlike say DVC where all the reservations and cancellations are fee-free. 

C.  6 months ahead, both HRC and HPP are able to access both HRC and HPP inventory.  This part seems a little unfair to HPP owners, in that we HRC owners haven't paid anything to access HPP whereas they've paid a significant sum. 

I don't like this new system but if you happen to be interested in low season at properties with lots of trust inventory, it could be a win for now.  For me, I like Carmel in Feb-Mar-Apr so I might do ok for a little while in the new system.


----------



## jhac007

bdh said:


> FWIW:  So until the HSH deeded owners give up their week, nobody (HPP or HRC exchangers) has access or priority to HSH - but a totally different story at Windward Pointe as Hyatt dumped all the unsold unit/weeks into the HPP trust, so lots of access for HPP and HRC exchangers there.
> 
> Unlike the HRC owner that is guaranteed a specific week/unit, an HPP owner is not guaranteed anything - unfortunately, the HPP owner has a handful of points that are pretty much worthless unless they find a resort that they can exchange into.



Question, so where all of the unsold Windward Pointe weeks Hyatt dumped into HPP lower demand weeks (ie. no diamond weeks)???


----------



## dahntahn

heathpack said:


> I know people here on TUG keep saying that HPP owners cant access HRC units, but I agree it sounds like they might be able to.
> 
> On practical grounds, no HRC units can possibly become available until 12 months out, so in reality I think it might work out to:
> A.  18 months ahead, only HPP units can possibly be available, and only HPP owners can access this inventory.  Fair enough, since its HPP inventory for sure.
> 
> B.  12 months ahead, both HRC and HPP are able to access HRC units.  Is there one pool of inventory that both groups have access to?  If so, how is priority determined?  If this is the case, the solution is going to be deciding where you want to go early and getting on the waitlist as soon as you can.  It can be an expensive proposition if you're not able to plan >12 mo ahead, because it will cost money to book your reservation and more money to cancel your reservation if the dates don't work for you and then more money to make another reservation.  Unlike say DVC where all the reservations and cancellations are fee-free.
> 
> C.  6 months ahead, both HRC and HPP are able to access both HRC and HPP inventory.  This part seems a little unfair to HPP owners, in that we HRC owners haven't paid anything to access HPP whereas they've paid a significant sum.
> 
> I don't like this new system but if you happen to be interested in low season at properties with lots of trust inventory, it could be a win for now.  For me, I like Carmel in Feb-Mar-Apr so I might do ok for a little while in the new system.




Attended owner's meeting today at Coconut Plantation.  The sales manager who is in charge of the lavish sales center here answered questions about HPP.  He was quite clear that the only access for HPP members to the HRC inventory AT ALL is when an HRC member who has joined HPP converts their week to HPP in any given year.  That week then is available to other HPP members that year.  The only way that our HRC wait lists will be affected is if many HRC members buy in to HPP and regularly give up their weeks into HPP, an unlikely possibility IMHO.  This is consistent with what we were told at the sales pitch we attended here in January.  I know they can change the rules in the future, but for now the fear that we Legacy members will lose wait list priority is groundless.  The overwhelming reaction of the owners who attended was negative and some overt anger.  ("You're trying to screw us!".)

Interestingly, the resort manager (a gem, Rey Martinez), told us that they will use unbooked time (via HPP) in the new building # 4 for sales promotion stays and HRC legacy members will not be able to access those units, and they will rent them also to the public at large. I.E. They will be used as the developer owned unsold weeks have always been.


----------



## WalnutBaron

dahntahn said:


> Attended owner's meeting today at Coconut Plantation.  The sales manager who is in charge of the lavish sales center here answered questions about HPP.  He was quite clear that the only access for HPP members to the HRC inventory AT ALL is when an HRC member who has joined HPP converts their week to HPP in any given year.  That week then is available to other HPP members that year.  The only way that our HRC wait lists will be affected is if many HRC members buy in to HPP and regularly give up their weeks into HPP, an unlikely possibility IMHO.  This is consistent with what we were told at the sales pitch we attended here in January.  I know they can change the rules in the future, but for now the fear that we Legacy members will lose wait list priority is groundless.  The overwhelming reaction of the owners who attended was negative and some overt anger.  ("You're trying to screw us!".)
> 
> Interestingly, the resort manager (a gem, Rey Martinez), told us that they will use unbooked time (via HPP) in the new building # 4 for sales promotion stays and HRC legacy members will not be able to access those units, and they will rent them also to the public at large. I.E. They will be used as the developer owned unsold weeks have always been.


Thanks, dahntahn, This is consistent with my conversations with Hyatt's owner services people. As has been said throughout this thread, I believe the threat to HRC legacy owners is minimal. Regardless, it certainly behooves all of us to remain vigilant. ILG's creation of this HPP program is a farce, and it's a terrible value for the unsuspecting with--as we have seen on this forum--a lot of high-pressure sales tactics on the part of the sales weasels.


----------



## bdh

jhac007 said:


> Question, so where all of the unsold Windward Pointe weeks Hyatt dumped into HPP lower demand weeks (ie. no diamond weeks)???



Don't know exactly what HWP weeks were put into the HPP trust when Hyatt stopped selling weeks, but expect them to be a rather wide range from 1400 to 2200 as the majority of the weeks/units in building 7 and 8 had never been sold.  When selling weeks, not a lot of people wanted to spend $35 to $42K for a 2200 point week and be out in New Town next to the airport. So HPP Trust was an excellent vehicle for Hyatt to unload a lot of points - what a great way to peddle points when the buyer receives no tangible week/unit for their money.


----------



## bdh

dahntahn said:


> Attended owner's meeting today at Coconut Plantation.  The sales manager who is in charge of the lavish sales center here answered questions about HPP.  He was quite clear that the only access for HPP members to the HRC inventory AT ALL is when an HRC member who has joined HPP converts their week to HPP in any given year.  That week then is available to other HPP members that year.  The only way that our HRC wait lists will be affected is if many HRC members buy in to HPP and regularly give up their weeks into HPP, an unlikely possibility IMHO.  This is consistent with what we were told at the sales pitch we attended here in January.  I know they can change the rules in the future, but for now the fear that we Legacy members will lose wait list priority is groundless.  The overwhelming reaction of the owners who attended was negative and some overt anger.  ("You're trying to screw us!".)
> 
> Interestingly, the resort manager (a gem, Rey Martinez), told us that they will use unbooked time (via HPP) in the new building # 4 for sales promotion stays and HRC legacy members will not be able to access those units, and they will rent them also to the public at large. I.E. They will be used as the developer owned unsold weeks have always been.



Have heard of a few of HRC owners buying into HPP - but based on the exit polls (conversations at the pool and as noted here on TUG) from HRC owners attending the sales presentations, the percentage of HRC owners buying HPP can't be but 5%.  The sales numbers are low as there's no reason to pay $13K or more for something an HRC owner already has - until HPP starts to sell new locations, every HPP Trust location is a location that an HRC property already exists.  So I'm ok with not having access Coconut building 4, Wild Oak building 5 & 6, Windward building 7 & 8, etc.


----------



## Kal

It would be interesting to see how the points mechanics work when you own a mid-year unit and provide that unit to the HPP at the first 12 weeks of the calendar year.  It's all about usage and synchronization of HRC and HPP points.


----------



## jhac007

bdh said:


> Don't know exactly what HWP weeks were put into the HPP trust when Hyatt stopped selling weeks, but expect them to be a rather wide range from 1400 to 2200 as the majority of the weeks/units in building 7 and 8 had never been sold.  When selling weeks, not a lot of people wanted to spend $35 to $42K for a 2200 point week and be out in New Town next to the airport. So HPP Trust was an excellent vehicle for Hyatt to unload a lot of points - what a great way to peddle points when the buyer receives no tangible week/unit for their money.




Thanks, interesting info!


----------



## Sapper

I wonder if these weeks that were dumped into HPP were the spring/summer weeks that had the jump in point value last year. If you are creating the HPP and need points, what an interesting way to get them (sarcasm).


----------



## Edward Druy

Cropman said:


> When I was there at beginning of February, there was one right next to Two Friends Restaurant.  And, I think, there is one at the corner of Duval and Caroline.


You can also sign up at the Hyatt Centric hotel. They have a desk in the lobby.


----------



## dahntahn

When I complained to the sales manager at yesterday's owners meeting that we legacy owners have been kept completely in the dark about the HPP plan, he explained that until every state govt. in a Hyatt location that will be in the HPP officially approves the plan in that state, Hyatt cannot issue any communication to the HRC community at large.  That sounds complicated, but he said the state approval process is different in each state and has taken longer than anticipated.  So far, Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona have approvals.  The others are in process.  Apparently when all sites in HPP have state approval, then Hyatt can market and publicize/announce it to all.  He understands our frustration but legally they cannot release the info yet.  I found him to be quite credible, and he gave us the best and most succinct explanation of how HPP will work.


----------



## heathpack

dahntahn said:


> When I complained to the sales manager at yesterday's owners meeting that we legacy owners have been kept completely in the dark about the HPP plan, he explained that until every state govt. in a Hyatt location that will be in the HPP officially approves the plan in that state, Hyatt cannot issue any communication to the HRC community at large.  That sounds complicated, but he said the state approval process is different in each state and has taken longer than anticipated.  So far, Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona have approvals.  The others are in process.  Apparently when all sites in HPP have state approval, then Hyatt can market and publicize/announce it to all.  He understands our frustration but legally they cannot release the info yet.  I found him to be quite credible, and he gave us the best and most succinct explanation of how HPP will work.



If the state has approved HPP in California, why were the salespeople at Highlands Inn saying just a few weeks ago that they can't sell any points?  That was one TUGGER's experience when he/she (I can't remember who it was, but they posted about it) attended a sales pitch at HHI.


----------



## bdh

dahntahn said:


> So far, Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona have approvals.  The others are in process.



Colorado must have also approved the Hyatt/ILG HPP program as Hyatt Aspen lists HPP available dates on the new HRC/HPP website.


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## heathpack

It was Sapper who posted on March 8th that the sales staff at HHI is unable to sell points.  I guess they could have been approved by the state of CA to sell points in the ensuing few weeks, but my impression is that even the seemingly knowledgeable people at Hyatt these days just say whatever they feel like saying at any given moment.


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## twobluecats

Hello, all.  We are members and just returned from a trip where we went through the update.  I really had no clue of the changes, and we have been inclined to make the added purchase to support the flexibility that the HPP seemingly will offer.  It works for our travel because we don't really use our week as allotted anyway.  However, your educated and informed conversation has me thinking otherwise.  Are there any folks at Hyatt beyond sales people that can and will speak to members about the changes and any reasonable opportunity to pay to play as Marriott seemed to offer? Any advice much appreciated!


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

dahntahn said:


> When I complained to the sales manager at yesterday's owners meeting that we legacy owners have been kept completely in the dark about the HPP plan, he explained that until every state govt. in a Hyatt location that will be in the HPP officially approves the plan in that state, Hyatt cannot issue any communication to the HRC community at large.  That sounds complicated, but he said the state approval process is different in each state and has taken longer than anticipated.  So far, Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona have approvals.  The others are in process.  Apparently when all sites in HPP have state approval, then Hyatt can market and publicize/announce it to all.  He understands our frustration but legally they cannot release the info yet.  I found him to be quite credible, and he gave us the best and most succinct explanation of how HPP will work.


If Hawaii and the fractional in Colorado join MFs will skyrocket in  HPP


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## Kal

twobluecats said:


> ...we have been inclined to make the added purchase to support the flexibility that the HPP seemingly will offer.  It works for our travel because we don't really use our week as allotted anyway....


What elements of the HPP did you see that might improve your current situation?


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## twobluecats

Hi!  Well. We truly do tend to move to II sooner than maybe we’d prefer because we worry about keeping up with various deadlines. Then, if we decide that a Hyatt resort would be nice, too late as I’ve moved it.  We travel extensively and cruise a lot as well and still work full time.  We never planned to stay during our week, and at the time of purchase a decade ago we still had DVC as well.  Some perks at first glance are:

-longer time to book
-transfer of incremental to WOH instead of all or nothing
-like the idea of Beyond but acknowledge not all the details out yet
-new resort access that might be limited otherwise

But, I’d prefer the option to enjoy these amenities at a reasonable price without committing to more points I don’t need. And, I’m extremely frustrated and worried about the fact that Hyatt has seemingly chose to keep owners in the dark.  I haven’t attended an update in eight years-just a fluke we did over the weekend trip!


----------



## Sapper

heathpack said:


> If the state has approved HPP in California, why were the salespeople at Highlands Inn saying just a few weeks ago that they can't sell any points?  That was one TUGGER's experience when he/she (I can't remember who it was, but they posted about it) attended a sales pitch at HHI.



It was me. They said in the meeting that they would be getting HPP approved for Carmel soon. I figured it was a sales tactic because they were still pushing deeds. Maybe they really did get it that fast, but I wonder.


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## WalnutBaron

twobluecats, thanks for your response. Others will likely share their thoughts, but here are mine FWIW:

Longer time to book. HPP offers you booking window up to 18 months in advance. So what? Where is the availability at 18 months? If it is from HPP inventory, then maybe so--but the HPP inventory is extremely limited right now. And inventory from HRC is not going to be available until typically 6 months out--the same availability that HRC owners have using their CUP points. And since you're not good at "keeping up with various deadlines", I doubt this option really appeals to you anyway.
Transfer of incremental points to WOH instead of all or nothing. Remember, hotel points are a MUCH worse value than timeshare points. I guess if your unused HRC points are truly ready to expire, getting some WOH points is better than nothing. But what that really exposes is that you're frankly not doing a great job of managing your HRC points. In order, here are best and highest uses: 1) book your fixed week at your home resort, which you presumably bought because it's an attractive destination for you; 2) book using CUP points to go where you want within the HRC system--a very good option since just about every Hyatt property is a total winner in terms of quality; 3) deposit your points into II using the EEE option, thereby extending your usage for two years...true, you cannot trade back into Hyatt through II, but you can get Marriotts and Vistana properties--among others--with excellent trade value from your Hyatt unit; 4) last resort before expiration, LCUP--short window reservations. This is not a good option because availability is very limited at that point.
Like the idea of Beyond but acknowledge not all the details are out yet. I am not familiar with Beyond, so cannot comment.
New resort access that might be limited otherwise. This is a sales weasel tactic, and should be thoroughly discounted. At this time, HPP offers ZERO locations within Hyatt that cannot be accessed by HRC owners. There are rumors that HPP is planning to buy and convert a nice property in Key West, but they are just that--rumors.
Bottom line: with better and closer management of what you already own, you can save yourself a ton of $$ and not buy HPP.


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## Sapper

twobluecats said:


> Some perks at first glance are:
> 
> -longer time to book
> -transfer of incremental to WOH instead of all or nothing
> -like the idea of Beyond but acknowledge not all the details out yet
> -new resort access that might be limited otherwise



I get the longer period to book giving more flexibility to the points. 

When I have done the math in the past, transferring points always seemd to be financially more costly than what they are worth. Especially when they run the 40% off buying WoH points deal once or twice a year. 

I'm not familiar with any program called "Beyond", would you mind filling us in on this one?

Regarding new resort access, I think for me this is going to have to be a you build it first then I'll believe you kind of thing. They are adding buildings to existing resorts for exclusive HPP access, but we can already access these resorts through HRC.  I'm guessing it will be a while before any truly new resorts come online. I'm sure there will be plenty of "opportunities" to buy into HPP between now and that point in the future.


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## twobluecats

Thanks for the amazing responses.  As for Beyond, it is in their marketing literature and was explained to be option that will allow to book experiences much like Adventures by Disney.  For example, safaris, etc.  And, it will apparently allow for points to be used for cars, hotels, airfare, etc.  That part isn’t all that appealing, but high end vacations built out like Adventures by Disney are appealing.

Overall, it appears lots of what ifs right now.  Seems the prudent choice should’ve to just sit back and wait it out.  Really disappointing in a brand I have historically held in high regard.


----------



## Kal

Longer time to book - That is a good concept, but what if the only availability was for resorts that no other HPP owners would find interesting.  HPP has little or no inventory so any high quality reservation would be taken immediately thru the wait list.

Points to WOH - I suggest some homework to examine the value of WOH points.  Over time we have seen the high number of required points does not in any way match the value obtained.  Then too, Hyatt has a way of constantly increasing the formula for points usage.  A value you see today could easily cost more points tomorrow.

New Resort Access - Right now HPP will include more buildings at a few existing resorts.  I would wait to see if any NEW resorts become available.


----------



## Sapper

twobluecats said:


> Thanks for the amazing responses.  As for Beyond, it is in their marketing literature and was explained to be option that will allow to book experiences much like Adventures by Disney.  For example, safaris, etc.  And, it will apparently allow for points to be used for cars, hotels, airfare, etc.  That part isn’t all that appealing, but high end vacations built out like Adventures by Disney are appealing.
> 
> Overall, it appears lots of what ifs right now.  Seems the prudent choice should’ve to just sit back and wait it out.  Really disappointing in a brand I have historically held in high regard.



Ah, most of us have yet to see any formal marketing material. Kal was able to find the new club rules which incorporate HPP, however, I do not remember any mention of a "Beyond" type program. Thank you for explaining it. I would be cautious of the point requirements they may impose for such a program. 

What you bought into is still an outstanding system with wonderful properties in great locations. That has not changed. In fact, even with the current monkey business regarding HPP, I'm still looking to acquire another HRC (Carmel!) property. I believe the whole HPP idea was spawned as a way for II to milk money out of the Hyatt system after they over paid for it. I do not believe it was a well thought out program, and I do not believe it has been implemented well. All that being said, II could have done a number if things which would have had significant negative consequences for HRC owners. I actually have hope for the system because II has not done anything really bad to existing owners.


----------



## bdh

Tucsonadventurer said:


> If Hawaii and the fractional in Colorado join MFs will skyrocket in  HPP



Can't remember where I picked it up, but the only Colorado property in HPP is Aspen. 

I believe that Hawaii was also never going to be HPP.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

bdh said:


> Can't remember where I picked it up, but the only Colorado property in HPP is Aspen.
> 
> I believe that Hawaii was also never going to be HPP.


Supposedly according to sales in Key West all states will eventually be approved and then all resorts will be in HPP. Hawaii sales folks deny that. I think that fact that only Aspen is in the program though and Colorado is approved for it means that you are correct. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## lizap

dahntahn said:


> When I complained to the sales manager at yesterday's owners meeting that we legacy owners have been kept completely in the dark about the HPP plan, he explained that until every state govt. in a Hyatt location that will be in the HPP officially approves the plan in that state, Hyatt cannot issue any communication to the HRC community at large.  That sounds complicated, but he said the state approval process is different in each state and has taken longer than anticipated.  So far, Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona have approvals.  The others are in process.  Apparently when all sites in HPP have state approval, then Hyatt can market and publicize/announce it to all.  He understands our frustration but legally they cannot release the info yet.  I found him to be quite credible, and he gave us the best and most succinct explanation of how HPP will work.



Then why doesn't Hyatt send us a letter telling us this??


----------



## lizap

bdh said:


> Colorado must have also approved the Hyatt/ILG HPP program as Hyatt Aspen lists HPP available dates on the new HRC/HPP website.



Deleted


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

We spoke to a Hyatt agent when we called the reservation line today and she reassured us that the only benefit for us joining the Portfolio program would be 
if we wanted extra points but didn't want a full week. She did not see any impact on reservations even with the wait list. Supposedly Residence Club members can reserve on waitlist at 18 mos and the requests are filled by 1st come first serve regardless if we are HPP  or HRC. I asked about Hawaii and she didn't know if it would be in the HPP  but didn't think so. She also said Northstar was not in the program because there was not enough inventory where High Sierra was even though they were both in CA where the program is approved. It was a  reassuring conversation.


----------



## heathpack

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We spoke to a Hyatt agent when we called the reservation line today and she reassured us that the only benefit for us joining the Portfolio program would be
> if we wanted extra points but didn't want a full week. She did not see any impact on reservations even with the wait list. Supposedly Residence Club members can reserve on waitlist at 18 mos and the requests are filled by 1st come first serve regardless if we are HPP  or HRC. I asked about Hawaii and she didn't know if it would be in the HPP  but didn't think so. She also said Northstar was not in the program because there was not enough inventory where High Sierra was even though they were both in CA where the program is approved. It was a  reassuring conversation.



High Sierra is in Nevada.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

heathpack said:


> High Sierra is in Nevada.


Good catch, lol, so poor example. What I was trying to say was that even though a state is approved, there seem to be many other factors that go
into which resorts are included in the program. Northstar is not a part of HPP while I believe  Carmel is.


----------



## heathpack

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Good catch, lol, so poor example. What I was trying to say was that even though a state is approved, there seem to be many other factors that go
> into which resorts are included in the program. Northstar is not a part of HPP while I believe  Carmel is.



I need a week anywhere in Incline Village starting June 3, and was just searching when you posted.  So the place is on my mind.


----------



## ivywag

WalnutBaron said:


> Thanks, dahntahn, This is consistent with my conversations with Hyatt's owner services people. As has been said throughout this thread, I believe the threat to HRC legacy owners is minimal. Regardless, it certainly behooves all of us to remain vigilant. ILG's creation of this HPP program is a farce, and it's a terrible value f





Tucsonadventurer said:


> We spoke to a Hyatt agent when we called the reservation line today and she reassured us that the only benefit for us joining the Portfolio program would be
> if we wanted extra points but didn't want a full week. She did not see any impact on reservations even with the wait list. Supposedly Residence Club members can reserve on waitlist at 18 mos and the requests are filled by 1st come first serve regardless if we are HPP  or HRC. I asked about Hawaii and she didn't know if it would be in the HPP  but didn't think so. She also said Northstar was not in the program because there was not enough inventory where High Sierra was even though they were both in CA where the program is approved. It was a  reassuring conversation.



Did she say whether there is one waitlist for HPP and HRC or are they separate?


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

ivywag said:


> Did she say whether there is one waitlist for HPP and HRC or are they separate?


She referred to 1 waitlist.


----------



## scsu_hockey_fan

So my understanding is that if a current HRC owner wanted access to HPP inventory before the 6 month mark they would need to convert their week? Can a week be converted without buying 660 points?  If the answer is no, which i understand it is, this is a double edge sword or catch-22.  Buyer beware!?  So to get a nice reservation you will need more the 660 points in HPP, which means you would be converting your week every year so your 660 points don't go to waist., or if your willing to wait till the 6th month mark to combine them with out converting. Or take short trips to use the points up.  Booooo!


----------



## janetdoe

twobluecats said:


> -transfer of incremental to WOH instead of all or nothing


If anyone wants to trade a subset of their HRC points for WOH points, talk to a Hyatt Globalist. Globalists can use the Guest of Honor program to book an award reservation for anyone. You would receive Globalist benefits (upgrade, free parking, waived resort fees, free breakfast, club lounge access) which should give you more value for the points than booking them out of your non- or low-status Hyatt account.  Globalists also have access to a limited number of guaranteed suite upgrades each year and may be willing to use one on your reservation.


----------



## Lisa Friedrichsen

Attended an "owners update" at Wild Oak Ranch this week (May 2018).  The salesman told us he would give us a 30 minute "owners update" but we got blindsided by an hour+ presentation of the Portfolio program.  We had heard about some sort of points system coming on in January of 2017 in Sedona, but had completely forgotten that by now.   When we told Wild Oak Ranch person that we didn't need more points (we're 1/20th owners in a 3BR at Breckenridge for a total of 4440 points/year) he tried to sell us the 660 portfolio point program for $13,200.  I see a MF $549.12 on my sheet, I assume that's annual maintenance fees.

His final pitch was that he said that soon, we would not be able to trade into other Hyatt properties unless we were in the Portfolio program given Portfolio requests would be on the wait list longer.  He claimed that something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program??!!  (He followed that up with 90%+ of Marriott folks had done the same).  Given this was the first time I had been hit with the pitch I was not prepared to ask good questions, but here are a few things I'm still fuzzy on after reading all of the great information folks have posted on these forums. Thank you!!

1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system?  Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?
2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?
3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?
4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?

Again, thank you!!


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

Lisa Friedrichsen said:


> Attended an "owners update" at Wild Oak Ranch this week (May 2018).  The salesman told us he would give us a 30 minute "owners update" but we got blindsided by an hour+ presentation of the Portfolio program.  We had heard about some sort of points system coming on in January of 2017 in Sedona, but had completely forgotten that by now.   When we told Wild Oak Ranch person that we didn't need more points (we're 1/20th owners in a 3BR at Breckenridge for a total of 4440 points/year) he tried to sell us the 660 portfolio point program for $13,200.  I see a MF $549.12 on my sheet, I assume that's annual maintenance fees.
> 
> His final pitch was that he said that soon, we would not be able to trade into other Hyatt properties unless we were in the Portfolio program given Portfolio requests would be on the wait list longer.  He claimed that something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program??!!  (He followed that up with 90%+ of Marriott folks had done the same).  Given this was the first time I had been hit with the pitch I was not prepared to ask good questions, but here are a few things I'm still fuzzy on after reading all of the great information folks have posted on these forums. Thank you!!
> 
> 1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system?  Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?
> 2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?
> 3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?
> 4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?
> 
> Again, thank you!!


And we were told last month that 80% of owners were in Portfolio. Something fishy


----------



## bdh

Lisa Friedrichsen said:


> Attended an "owners update" at Wild Oak Ranch this week (May 2018).  The salesman told us he would give us a 30 minute "owners update" but we got blindsided by an hour+ presentation of the Portfolio program.  We had heard about some sort of points system coming on in January of 2017 in Sedona, but had completely forgotten that by now.   When we told Wild Oak Ranch person that we didn't need more points (we're 1/20th owners in a 3BR at Breckenridge for a total of 4440 points/year) he tried to sell us the 660 portfolio point program for $13,200.  I see a MF $549.12 on my sheet, I assume that's annual maintenance fees.
> 
> His final pitch was that he said that soon, we would not be able to trade into other Hyatt properties unless we were in the Portfolio program given Portfolio requests would be on the wait list longer.  He claimed that something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program??!!  (He followed that up with 90%+ of Marriott folks had done the same).  Given this was the first time I had been hit with the pitch I was not prepared to ask good questions, but here are a few things I'm still fuzzy on after reading all of the great information folks have posted on these forums. Thank you!!
> 
> 1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system?  Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?
> 2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?
> 3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?
> 4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?
> 
> Again, thank you!!



The salesman claim of "_something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program_" is comical!  Based on comments from the HRC owners here on TUG and more importantly, the owner update post-mortem conversations with HRC owners around the pool at the various Hyatt properties, the percentage sounds like its under 5%.  The less than 5% is based on my personal conversations - would like to hear what other owners are hearing in their pool side post-mortem chats.

1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system? _ No, only Hyatt knows that - and if they're saying 70% HRC have converted, they're lying (70% of HRC owners can't even spell HPP)_. Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?  _No way to know an exact number - only way is by TUG posts or pool side chats as noted above.  
_
2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?  _Correct - the exception would be an HRC owner who elects to permanently turn in their HRC deed over to Hyatt for HPP points.
_
3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?  _For the most part no.  That said, Hyatt staff have confirmed only 20+/- weeks in HPP at Sunset Harbor and considerably more at Windward Pointe (expectation is over 3000+ weeks - very few in any units is buildings 7 & 8 at WP were sold as weeks when the Hyatt changed from selling weeks to points - so all unsold WP inventory went into HPP.)
_
4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?  _Yes/No.  There's been a lot of discussion on the topic here on TUG and its been split as to what realty is - that said, my vote is Yes._


----------



## Sapper

Lisa Friedrichsen said:


> Attended an "owners update" at Wild Oak Ranch this week (May 2018).  The salesman told us he would give us a 30 minute "owners update" but we got blindsided by an hour+ presentation of the Portfolio program.  We had heard about some sort of points system coming on in January of 2017 in Sedona, but had completely forgotten that by now.   When we told Wild Oak Ranch person that we didn't need more points (we're 1/20th owners in a 3BR at Breckenridge for a total of 4440 points/year) he tried to sell us the 660 portfolio point program for $13,200.  I see a MF $549.12 on my sheet, I assume that's annual maintenance fees.
> 
> His final pitch was that he said that soon, we would not be able to trade into other Hyatt properties unless we were in the Portfolio program given Portfolio requests would be on the wait list longer.  He claimed that something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program??!!  (He followed that up with 90%+ of Marriott folks had done the same).  Given this was the first time I had been hit with the pitch I was not prepared to ask good questions, but here are a few things I'm still fuzzy on after reading all of the great information folks have posted on these forums. Thank you!!
> 
> 1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system?  Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?
> 2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?
> 3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?
> 4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?
> 
> Again, thank you!!



My guess is the sales person has resorted to fear tactics in order to induce a sale. Sad to see (or hear). Also a guess, the sales team is receiving pressure from management to resort to these tactics because the HPP is under performing expectations. 

1. No way for us to know for sure. If the TUG members are representative of the general public, I would guess that HRC buy in to HPP is under 5%. 
2. Yes, my understanding is it is an annual decision. Because Hyatt has put so little official information out re HPP, early on it was thought that an owner might have to hand over their deed. After more info came out, we know know that the owner keeps their deed and decides every year if they are going to use their owned unit in HPP. 
3. We know which resorts are and are not currently in HPP. We do not know number of unit / weeks in each program. 
4. Regarding wait lists, my understanding is first come first served. For example, if an HRC owner puts in a request at five months out and a HPP owner puts in a request for the same thing at three months out, the HRC owner would have priority for the request. 

One other thing, now that Marriott owns II who owns Hyatt, no one really knows for sure what changes Marriott may impose down the road.


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> The salesman claim of "_something like 70% of current HRC owners were moving into the portfolio program_" is comical!  Based on comments from the HRC owners here on TUG and more importantly, the owner update post-mortem conversations with HRC owners around the pool at the various Hyatt properties, the percentage sounds like its under 5%.  The less than 5% is based on my personal conversations - would like to hear what other owners are hearing in their pool side post-mortem chats.
> 
> 1.  Is there any way to know how many HRC owners are remaining with the pure HRC system? _ No, only Hyatt knows that - and if they're saying 70% HRC have converted, they're lying (70% of HRC owners can't even spell HPP)_. Previous posts have indicated that not many HRC owners are adding Portfolio points, but how do we know?  _No way to know an exact number - only way is by TUG posts or pool side chats as noted above.
> _
> 2.  Even if an HRC owner buys portfolio points, putting their deeded unit into the portfolio system is an annual decision, correct?  _Correct - the exception would be an HRC owner who elects to permanently turn in their HRC deed over to Hyatt for HPP points.
> _
> 3.  Is there any way to know, resort by resort, how many units and weeks are in the HRC vs. Portfolio program?  _For the most part no.  That said, Hyatt staff have confirmed only 20+/- weeks in HPP at Sunset Harbor and considerably more at Windward Pointe (expectation is over 3000+ weeks - very few in any units is buildings 7 & 8 at WP were sold as weeks when the Hyatt changed from selling weeks to points - so all unsold WP inventory went into HPP.)
> _
> 4.  Have we for sure clarified whether a Portfolio request for a property trumps an HRC request for the same CUP inventory assuming that the Portfolio request was placed into the system first?  _Yes/No.  There's been a lot of discussion on the topic here on TUG and its been split as to what realty is - that said, my vote is Yes._



That's funny bdh, I had not seen your post when I typed mine out, and we both came up with >5% conversion from HRC to HPP.


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## Tucsonadventurer

At an owners update it wss clarified that Hyatt club owners have priority in Club inventory and Portfolii members have priority in portfolio inventory . Of course if you convert you have priority in club also. That would be where wait list comes in.


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## Lisa Friedrichsen

Thanks for all of the great insights.  One of the biggest issues of being an original Breckenridge owner is that we already have two pools of points to manage...our fixed week and our floating 10 days.  So managing the time frames for the different buckets of points are complicated already.  And now they want me to layer on an yet another completely different point system?? And they say this is supposed to make everything easier and more flexible?  What would be easier and more flexible is if they would buy back my unit for what I paid for it.  70% of us might take that deal!!


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## Kal

Lisa Friedrichsen said:


> Thanks for all of the great insights.  One of the biggest issues of being an original Breckenridge owner is that we already have two pools of points to manage...our fixed week and our floating 10 days.  So managing the time frames for the different buckets of points are complicated already.  And now they want me to layer on an yet another completely different point system?? And they say this is supposed to make everything easier and more flexible?  What would be easier and more flexible is if they would buy back my unit for what I paid for it.  70% of us might take that deal!!


As always, Hyatt would never pay "retail" for an HRC unit.  They have a very high overhead plus the required profit margin on the deal.  My rule-of-thumb is they would never pay more than 25-30% of the current Hyatt sales price of the unit.  Of course they don't sell weeks any longer so their formula is rolled into the "HPP Retail Value" (whatever that means).


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## Marathoner

janetdoe said:


> If anyone wants to trade a subset of their HRC points for WOH points, talk to a Hyatt Globalist. Globalists can use the Guest of Honor program to book an award reservation for anyone. You would receive Globalist benefits (upgrade, free parking, waived resort fees, free breakfast, club lounge access) which should give you more value for the points than booking them out of your non- or low-status Hyatt account.  Globalists also have access to a limited number of guaranteed suite upgrades each year and may be willing to use one on your reservation.



Do you know if the WOH point option is available for owners who purchased Hyatt weeks in the resale market?  Or is this only for owners who purchased weeks directly from Hyatt?


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## Marathoner

Lisa Friedrichsen said:


> Thanks for all of the great insights.  One of the biggest issues of being an original Breckenridge owner is that we already have two pools of points to manage...our fixed week and our floating 10 days.  So managing the time frames for the different buckets of points are complicated already.  And now they want me to layer on an yet another completely different point system?? And they say this is supposed to make everything easier and more flexible?  What would be easier and more flexible is if they would buy back my unit for what I paid for it.  70% of us might take that deal!!



Do not buy any HPP points right now.

As you know, the Colorado ski week properties are upscale and are walk to lifts which make them very attractive. So, ownership has real value if you are a skiing family (although the maintenance fees are quite high).  Given that Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) is buying ILG (which owns they Hyatt Residence Club), there could be multiple changes in a couple years time that affect you both positively or negatively.  So, you don't want to buy into HPP until you know for sure what the merger will do to the value of legacy week ownership as well as to the new HPP program.

Given the attractiveness of ski weeks in the HRC program, I speculate that MVC may offer low cost options to the owners of legacy HRC weeks to enroll your weeks into some future program that may give you access to all the Marriott resorts.  That could be a nice way to use your floating 10 days while still using your ski week.  So, I recommend sitting tight and enjoy using your week until we all learn more.

fyi - I ski at Breck every year.  I seriously considered buying a 3BR at the Breck Hyatt but I just didn't feel comfortable with the size of the maintenance fee.  Nice resort though.


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## Sapper

Marathoner said:


> Do you know if the WOH point option is available for owners who purchased Hyatt weeks in the resale market?  Or is this only for owners who purchased weeks directly from Hyatt?



Only to direct purchase from Hyatt. It's a bad value though. If you need WoH points, just buy them from Hyatt during one of their sales. They sent me an email last week with a 40% off sale till the end of the month.


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## Sapper

Marathoner said:


> fyi - I ski at Breck every year.  I seriously considered buying a 3BR at the Breck Hyatt but I just didn't feel comfortable with the size of the maintenance fee.  Nice resort though.



Curious to know if you looked at HGVC Valdoro for Breckinridge?  If so, what did you think?


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## lizap

Went to Kannapali presentation yesterday. The sales rep (who has been with Hyatt many years) had never heard of PPP. He said they only sell deeded weeks here, and the resort is about 57% sold.


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## lizap

Marathoner said:


> Do not buy any HPP points right now.
> 
> As you know, the Colorado ski week properties are upscale and are walk to lifts which make them very attractive. So, ownership has real value if you are a skiing family (although the maintenance fees are quite high).  Given that Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) is buying ILG (which owns they Hyatt Residence Club), there could be multiple changes in a couple years time that affect you both positively or negatively.  So, you don't want to buy into HPP until you know for sure what the merger will do to the value of legacy week ownership as well as to the new HPP program.
> 
> Given the attractiveness of ski weeks in the HRC program, I speculate that MVC may offer low cost options to the owners of legacy HRC weeks to enroll your weeks into some future program that may give you access to all the Marriott resorts.  That could be a nice way to use your floating 10 days while still using your ski week.  So, I recommend sitting tight and enjoy using your week until we all learn more.
> 
> fyi - I ski at Breck every year.  I seriously considered buying a 3BR at the Breck Hyatt but I just didn't feel comfortable with the size of the maintenance fee.  Nice resort though.



I agree with this. Would hold off to see what MVC does. My guess is PPP is either history or will be drastically changed. It was ill conceived from the start. MVC is a class act, and I feel fairly certain thet will straighten this fiasco out.


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> Went to Kannapali presentation yesterday. The sales rep (who has been with Hyatt many years) had never heard of PPP. He said they only sell deeded weeks here, and the resort is about 57% sold.



Hawaii is not currently in the HPP.


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## lizap

Sapper said:


> Hawaii is not currently in the HPP.



I am aware of this, but very interesting that a long-time Hyatt rep has never heard of PPP.


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> I am aware of this, but very interesting that a long-time Hyatt rep has never heard of PPP.



My guess is he was lying. Maybe to keep the discussion on track to sell you on the Hawaii property?


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## lizap

Sapper said:


> My guess is he was lying. Maybe to keep the discussion on track to sell you on the Hawaii property?


No way to tell, but I didn't get that impression; he was very low key/pressure. BTW, my guess is he has a pretty easy job; this resort is gorgeous, possibly the nicest on Maui.


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## Tucsonadventurer

lizap said:


> No way to tell, but I didn't get that impression; he was very low key/pressure. BTW, my guess is he has a pretty easy job; this resort is gorgeous, possibly the nicest on Maui.


We will be there soon. Curious what the incentives were for the presentation. How long was it? Nice to hear it was low key. It would be a great place to own but the Wetin Villas are so much more affordable.


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## Marathoner

Sapper said:


> Curious to know if you looked at HGVC Valdoro for Breckinridge?  If so, what did you think?


I've not checked out Valdoro because they are not in II.  The best along with the most convenient ski-in/out locations at Breck are Grand Lodge at Peak 7 and Grand Lodge at Peak 8.  Both have reasonable MFs.  Unfortunately, I will not buy floating ski season weeks and I could never find a resale fixed week at those locations for the specific time period I was looking for


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## wilma

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We will be there soon. Curious what the incentives were for the presentation. How long was it? Nice to hear it was low key. It would be a great place to own but the Wetin Villas are so much more affordable.



We stayed at the maui residence club in April and they offered 10,000 points or $100, we passed. We did it the first time we stayed in 2016 and it lasted about 15 minutes and was pretty painless.


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## lizap

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We will be there soon. Curious what the incentives were for the presentation. How long was it? Nice to hear it was low key. It would be a great place to own but the Wetin Villas are so much more affordable.



We got $150. It was about an hour. We stayed at Westin Nanea first and are now at HKB. Previously have stayed at WKORV. Hyatt is head and shoulders nicer than either of the Westins on so many levels. The resort has a very exclusive 'feel'. Service here was impeccable. The Hyatt Regency, along with nice shops, is a huge plus. All 2 BR units are oceanfront.  Units are more luxurious and the resort is much less crowded. Since Nanea was added, the area around the Westins is very crowded.  The beach area around HKB is also nicer. My guess is HKB may be one of, if not the nicest TSs in Maui. We enjoyed our time here so much we are considering buying.


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## taffy19

We stayed in a 1 BR unit recently but didn't take a tour this year.  Do they show the 1 and 3 BR condos still too or only the 2 BR condos?

We like the Marriott too but not so much the small balconies at the newer towers but the oceanfront view is much better, IMO.  We decided not to take an update there either.

I was surprised to read that the HRC in Ka'anapali is only 57% sold out.


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## lizap

taffy19 said:


> We stayed in a 1 BR unit recently but didn't take a tour this year.  Do they show the 1 and 3 BR condos still too or only the 2 BR condos?
> 
> We like the Marriott too but not so much the small balconies at the newer towers but the oceanfront view is much better, IMO.  We decided not to take an update there either.
> 
> I was surprised to read that the HRC in Ka'anapali is only 57% sold out.



We were not required to take a tour.


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## Tucsonadventurer

We just called to set up a presentation as I want a tour and we wanted to do one before our children started arriving. We signed up for the 15,000 Hyatt points but there are lots of options of activities too.
I agree with Liz ,this is one I wouldn't mind owning.


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## lizap

Tucsonadventurer said:


> We just called to set up a presentation as I want a tour and we wanted to do one before our children started arriving. We signed up for the 15,000 Hyatt points but there are lots of options of activities too.
> I agree with Liz ,this is one I wouldn't mind owning.



This is an amazing resort.  Very few weeks will be in PPP.  As more units are sold, I suspect it will be harder and harder to get using points. Most owners will use or rent.


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> This is an amazing resort.  Very few weeks will be in PPP.  As more units are sold, I suspect it will be harder and harder to get using points. Most owners will use or rent.



This property is not in the HPP, so no points are there (or do you mean the possibility of them being there in the future because of the Marriott purchase?). It seems like the units I have seen on the internal trades are mostly <30-60 days out, which makes me think they are only there because of schedule issues by the owner at the last minute. The rest, like you say are either used by the owner or rented.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Sapper said:


> This property is not in the HPP, so no points are there (or do you mean the possibility of them being there in the future because of the Marriott purchase?). It seems like the units I have seen on the internal trades are mostly <30-60 days out, which makes me think they are only there because of schedule issues by the owner at the last minute. The rest, like you say are either used by the owner or rented.


We seem to get in each year 6 months out and I have been seeing inventory , some Nov dates were there this weekend. Very rare to see middle of the summer or prime winter months though. But the majority of inventory is 30 to 60 days.


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## bdbrecheen

We are currently at the property Coconut Plantation in Bonita Springs. On Monday, we attended an owners meeting with Rey, the property manager. He said a few interesting things during that meeting that caught my attention. First, he talked about ILG recently being acquired by Marriott.  He stated that as of right now things were to remain business as usual as far as Hyatt properties were concerned.  Regarding PPP, he asked if there were any owners in the room that had decided to participate in the portfolio program and no one raise their hand, he stated how surprised he was.  He went on to say that people who participate in the program we're going to be given preferential treatment in regards to reservations and that it was going to become more difficult to book vacations. I'm not sure how that could be possible if they're keeping legacy separate from PPP.  He briefly touched on owners being able to deposit their points on a year-to-year basis but stated that would be taken up and addressed by the sales team.  Curiosity was getting the best of me so we have an appointment tomorrow morning to have the sales staff "enlighten us" as to "the truth" about the program. We were told that the information we were getting was not correct.  I have no idea how they would even know what the information is that I have received.  Anyone on here that would like to suggest some questions that I should present to the salesman tomorrow morning? I have no intention of participating in the program since we currently own at two properties.  I would like to make him squirm a little bit so I'm open to all suggestions.


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## Cropman

I like Kal’s suggestions.  Ask him to show you how many popular weeks are available in the program that day.  In other words, week 7, 51, 52 at any resorts.  Weeks 5-13 in Florida.  Ski weeks. Etc.  Tell him you would really like to go to Hawaii in the winter. (Oh yeah, that’s not in the program.)  Depends on how much you want to make him squirm.


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## bdh

bdbrecheen said:


> He asked if there were any owners in the room that had decided to participate in the portfolio program and no one raise their hand, he stated how surprised he was. He went on to say that people who participate in the program we're going to be given preferential treatment in regards to reservations and that it was going to become more difficult to book vacations. I'm not sure how that could be possible if they're keeping legacy separate from PPP.



1.  Based on HPP sales at Coconut Plantation, what percentage of HRC owners doing the owner update are buying HPP?  _Ask for a percentage number._ _If he says an actual number in lieu of "Ohh, a lot", it will be interesting to hear the answer. _

2.  Exactly how will HPP owners be given preferential reservation treatment to HRC units?  _Only preferential advantage HPP has is immediate access to HPP units, while HRC has to wait 6 months for access to HPP units.  When it comes to HRC units, both HPP and HRC owners have *identical* request start date access, so neither one has a preferential advantage based on the type of ownership. _ 

3.  Exactly how will it become more difficult to book vacations? _No doubt HPP will have exclusive access to newly built HPP buildings and properties - however, every current HPP Trust location already has HRC units (so no difficulty there for HRC owners).  Inversely, there are not HPP units at every HRC property - so HPP access at the non-HPP properties is simply request start date.  Until a HRC owner releases their deeded week, neither HPP or other HRC owners have access to a HRPP week - so the initial upper hand is clearly with the deeded week owner (after HRPP period ends, then access to the reservation confirmation is simply request start date based).  
_
4.  While there are two separate types of ownership (HPP and HRC), are there two separate wait lists for HRC units?  _Current TUG opinion is split - but I'm betting that there is only one list._


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## lizap

bdbrecheen said:


> We are currently at the property Coconut Plantation in Bonita Springs. On Monday, we attended an owners meeting with Rey, the property manager. He said a few interesting things during that meeting that caught my attention. First, he talked about ILG recently being acquired by Marriott.  He stated that as of right now things were to remain business as usual as far as Hyatt properties were concerned.  Regarding PPP, he asked if there were any owners in the room that had decided to participate in the portfolio program and no one raise their hand, he stated how surprised he was.  He went on to say that people who participate in the program we're going to be given preferential treatment in regards to reservations and that it was going to become more difficult to book vacations. I'm not sure how that could be possible if they're keeping legacy separate from PPP.  He briefly touched on owners being able to deposit their points on a year-to-year basis but stated that would be taken up and addressed by the sales team.  Curiosity was getting the best of me so we have an appointment tomorrow morning to have the sales staff "enlighten us" as to "the truth" about the program. We were told that the information we were getting was not correct.  I have no idea how they would even know what the information is that I have received.  Anyone on here that would like to suggest some questions that I should present to the salesman tomorrow morning? I have no intention of participating in the program since we currently own at two properties.  I would like to make him squirm a little bit so I'm open to all suggestions.



This guy has NO idea what Marriott is going to do.  He needed to say no more. He did himself in with this statement.  One thing I'm pretty sure of is Marriott is going to modify things, including PPP (which was a disaster from the start).


----------



## bdbrecheen

Cropman said:


> I like Kal’s suggestions.  Ask him to show you how many popular weeks are available in the program that day.  In other words, week 7, 51, 52 at any resorts.  Weeks 5-13 in Florida.  Ski weeks. Etc.  Tell him you would really like to go to Hawaii in the winter. (Oh yeah, that’s not in the program.)  Depends on how much you want to make him squirm.


Thank you cropman for your response. I will definitely pose these questions.


----------



## bdbrecheen

lizap said:


> This guy has NO idea what Marriott is going to do.  He needed to say no more. He did himself in with this statement.  One thing I'm pretty sure of is Marriott is going to modify things, including PPP (which was a disaster from the start).


I will definitely question him on this issue. I'm sure the acquisition is going to put a kink in the program. From a legal standpoint, I would like to know if there is any protection as a legacy owner as to what can legally be done regarding our ownership and the original program we bought in to.


----------



## Sapper

lizap said:


> This guy has NO idea what Marriott is going to do.  He needed to say no more. He did himself in with this statement.  One thing I'm pretty sure of is Marriott is going to modify things, including PPP (which was a disaster from the start).



I'm not sure Marriott knows exactly what they are going to do, or specifically how they are going to impliment it yet with regards to Hyatt.  I think they have a general idea written into a business plan, but it's just one small piece of this massive purchase that will be subject to changes. No way in the world this guy knows what they are going to do.  We know Marriott likes the point system (ie DC Points) far more than a weeks system. They have said as much in share holder meetings. My guess is they are going to make it very appealing for weeks owners to come over to some kind of points system, whether that is HPP or some form of super points overlay that has been discussed in other threads. As for HPP owners, well, you are already in the points system, and thank you for paying higher maintenance fees than many weeks owners.


----------



## Kal

If I bought into the HPP at a minimum of $13K for a small handful of points, I would be very nervous about Marriott.  Marriott's move into the points system was at a significantly lower price point (maybe <$1K).  If Marriott changes the HPP buy in to something comparable, the original HPP buyers should not be very pleased.   It would be difficult to walk away from $13K on the table vs some cash value considerably lower.

It's all in the end game where an owner wants to divest.  You can sell a week and get a return.  Selling points could be extremely difficult as there would only be Hyatt as the buyer.  IMHO, there's no way Hyatt will buy back points at "retail pricing" if at all.  Is there any incentive for Hyatt to buy back points and see an owner walk?


----------



## bdh

bdbrecheen said:


> I will definitely question him on this issue. I'm sure the acquisition is going to put a kink in the program. From a legal standpoint, I would like to know if there is any protection as a legacy owner as to what can legally be done regarding our ownership and the original program we bought in to.



The program that you bought guarantees your week in a specific unit via your deed - no points program can change that and your deed is more than adequste legal protection of your week/unit.

The ability to exchange your week, your unit within the Hyatt system is a benefit that is not guaranteed.  And Marriott/Hyatt would be crazy to eliminate the exchange option.


----------



## bdbrecheen

Well, I was there for 3 hours. The salesman, Berton Spivy, a long time employee of Hyatt, was the lucky recipient of my barrage of questioning. He handled everything I threw at him with a calm demeanor and professionalism.  Now, here are the answers to my questions. 
 He stated that 85% of legacy owners do not use their deeded weeks.  He decided to drive that point home by telling me they had looked at my usage. He said I never used my deeded week at either property I own at and I stayed at a HRC Property 33 times since I became an owner.   He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility.  He said that 30% of the current  owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it. In the month of May, they have only seen three legacy owners completely convert to the portfolio program and give up their deeded weeks permanently. 
 When I questioned him about availability at the different resorts, he stated that the way the program is structured, there is availability at every one of them, including Hawaii.   When I asked him how that was possible he stated the following.  Portfolio members will be allowed to access our inventory( HRC) six months in advance just like we are. In addition, they will be allowed to access properties within PP one year In advance. I was further told there is not two waiting list, only one.  There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory.  Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek.  However, he insists that the inventory will still be available for Portfolio members.    When I told him I already had access to all of those resorts his rebuttal was there are "more locations" that will be opening up for the PP program.  When I asked him to name somewhere he could not. He said they were just looking at the history of how Marriott works. He further indicated that some of the other benefits would be no booking fees and Three years to use your points without expiring. He also made it a point to tell me they're only 44,000 owners in the HRC program.  he said portfolio will more than double that number. 
 They also told me that if I would buy into the portfolio program, my unit that I bought from a realtor  would now become eligible to convert my points into world of Hyatt if I desired. The conversion rate is one point equals 43 World of Hyatt points.  He states this is the only way that a resale unit can be granted that.  
 This is the points that we were offered. $20,000 would buy us 1000 points with the yearly fee of $830 for maintenance. I was told, that I didn't need that many points and they can offer me the following options. 660 Point is the least amount they sell and it is $13,200. Next is 780 points and it is $15,600 last one is 880 points and it is $17,600.   They will offer a bonus  of World of Hyatt points with the last two. 50,000 and 75,000 respectively.  
 There is also an executive portfolio program for members with 2201 to 4399 portfolio points.  The priority access reservation window is open from 12 months to six months prior to arrival. Reservations made he made up to one day prior to arrival.  You can confirm a specific unit, Floor level or view for an additional 75 portfolio points at time of booking.  You can request reservations up to 18 months prior to arrival using your portfolio points to access Hyatt residence club resort inventory. I will take a picture and upload that information. So, clearly they are being told they can access our inventory. 
I was not convinced to buy into this new program as all it did was seem to make me question what the next tactic would be to get me to ante up more money. I would be interested in hearing what some of you are intending to do. Thanks for listening folks!


----------



## Sapper

bdbrecheen said:


> .   He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility.  He said that 30% of the current  owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it.



I hear 78.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and the 98.9% of time share sales speak is BS.

All that being said, thank you for posting this. I think it is important for us to see, write, and communicate about what Hyatt is telling the owners.


----------



## Kal

bdbrecheen said:


> ... There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory.  Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek...


I'm not sure if he is saying there are 300 unit-weeks from EACH property, or 300 total.  We can do some arithmetic on this:
Let's assume there are 80 units per resort and 50 weeks per year.  That equals 4,000 unit-weeks for each resort or for 9 resorts the number is 36,000 unit-weeks.  Now with his number of 300 unit-weeks for each property that's 7% in the HPP.  For all 9 resorts, that number is 0.8% in the HPP. 

In the case of Sunset Harbor (February 2018) there were 20 unit-weeks in the HPP.  And this is the basis to buy in????  It doesn't even pass the sniff test.


----------



## Kal

bdbrecheen said:


> ...He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility.


Hmmm, 98% of legacy owners are buying into the HPP.  That really would cause a case of intestinal blockage requiring immediate departure from the pitch.


----------



## Cropman

bdbrecheen said:


> Well, I was there for 3 hours. The salesman, Berton Spivy, a long time employee of Hyatt, was the lucky recipient of my barrage of questioning. He handled everything I threw at him with a calm demeanor and professionalism.  Now, here are the answers to my questions.
> He stated that 85% of legacy owners do not use their deeded weeks.  He decided to drive that point home by telling me they had looked at my usage. He said I never used my deeded week at either property I own at and I stayed at a HRC Property 33 times since I became an owner.   He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility.  He said that 30% of the current  owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it. In the month of May, they have only seen three legacy owners completely convert to the portfolio program and give up their deeded weeks permanently.
> When I questioned him about availability at the different resorts, he stated that the way the program is structured, there is availability at every one of them, including Hawaii.   When I asked him how that was possible he stated the following.  Portfolio members will be allowed to access our inventory( HRC) six months in advance just like we are. In addition, they will be allowed to access properties within PP one year In advance. I was further told there is not two waiting list, only one.  There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory.  Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek.  However, he insists that the inventory will still be available for Portfolio members.    When I told him I already had access to all of those resorts his rebuttal was there are "more locations" that will be opening up for the PP program.  When I asked him to name somewhere he could not. He said they were just looking at the history of how Marriott works. He further indicated that some of the other benefits would be no booking fees and Three years to use your points without expiring. He also made it a point to tell me they're only 44,000 owners in the HRC program.  he said portfolio will more than double that number.
> They also told me that if I would buy into the portfolio program, my unit that I bought from a realtor  would now become eligible to convert my points into world of Hyatt if I desired. The conversion rate is one point equals 43 World of Hyatt points.  He states this is the only way that a resale unit can be granted that.
> This is the points that we were offered. $20,000 would buy us 1000 points with the yearly fee of $830 for maintenance. I was told, that I didn't need that many points and they can offer me the following options. 660 Point is the least amount they sell and it is $13,200. Next is 780 points and it is $15,600 last one is 880 points and it is $17,600.   They will offer a bonus  of World of Hyatt points with the last two. 50,000 and 75,000 respectively.
> There is also an executive portfolio program for members with 2201 to 4399 portfolio points.  The priority access reservation window is open from 12 months to six months prior to arrival. Reservations made he made up to one day prior to arrival.  You can confirm a specific unit, Floor level or view for an additional 75 portfolio points at time of booking.  You can request reservations up to 18 months prior to arrival using your portfolio points to access Hyatt residence club resort inventory. I will take a picture and upload that information. So, clearly they are being told they can access our inventory.
> I was not convinced to buy into this new program as all it did was seem to make me question what the next tactic would be to get me to ante up more money. I would be interested in hearing what some of you are intending to do. Thanks for listening folks!View attachment 6945



Great report!  Thanks for it!


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## Tucsonadventurer

The only reason H.P.P. members have access to Club inventory is that most of the members belong to both. New owners that buy in that don't own a week do not have access to Club inventory. We confirmed this with many Hyatt folks. Only ones saying differently are in sales.


----------



## bdh

bdbrecheen said:


> Well, I was there for 3 hours. The salesman, Berton Spivy, a long time employee of Hyatt, was the lucky recipient of my barrage of questioning. He handled everything I threw at him with a calm demeanor and professionalism. Now, here are the answers to my questions.
> He stated that 85% of legacy owners do not use their deeded weeks. He decided to drive that point home by telling me they had looked at my usage. He said I never used my deeded week at either property I own at and I stayed at a HRC Property 33 times since I became an owner. He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility. He said that 30% of the current owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it. In the month of May, they have only seen three legacy owners completely convert to the portfolio program and give up their deeded weeks permanently.
> When I questioned him about availability at the different resorts, he stated that the way the program is structured, there is availability at every one of them, including Hawaii. When I asked him how that was possible he stated the following. Portfolio members will be allowed to access our inventory( HRC) six months in advance just like we are. In addition, they will be allowed to access properties within PP one year In advance. I was further told there is not two waiting list, only one. There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory. Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek. However, he insists that the inventory will still be available for Portfolio members. When I told him I already had access to all of those resorts his rebuttal was there are "more locations" that will be opening up for the PP program. When I asked him to name somewhere he could not. He said they were just looking at the history of how Marriott works. He further indicated that some of the other benefits would be no booking fees and Three years to use your points without expiring. He also made it a point to tell me they're only 44,000 owners in the HRC program. he said portfolio will more than double that number.
> They also told me that if I would buy into the portfolio program, my unit that I bought from a realtor would now become eligible to convert my points into world of Hyatt if I desired. The conversion rate is one point equals 43 World of Hyatt points. He states this is the only way that a resale unit can be granted that.
> This is the points that we were offered. $20,000 would buy us 1000 points with the yearly fee of $830 for maintenance. I was told, that I didn't need that many points and they can offer me the following options. 660 Point is the least amount they sell and it is $13,200. Next is 780 points and it is $15,600 last one is 880 points and it is $17,600. They will offer a bonus of World of Hyatt points with the last two. 50,000 and 75,000 respectively.
> There is also an executive portfolio program for members with 2201 to 4399 portfolio points. The priority access reservation window is open from 12 months to six months prior to arrival. Reservations made he made up to one day prior to arrival. You can confirm a specific unit, Floor level or view for an additional 75 portfolio points at time of booking. You can request reservations up to 18 months prior to arrival using your portfolio points to access Hyatt residence club resort inventory. I will take a picture and upload that information. So, clearly they are being told they can access our inventory.
> I was not convinced to buy into this new program as all it did was seem to make me question what the next tactic would be to get me to ante up more money. I would be interested in hearing what some of you are intending to do. Thanks for listening folks!View attachment 6945



Thanks for the great post update report!  Apologize in advance for segmenting your post, but there was just so many items to comment on.

1. He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility. _No surprise here - HRC owners may occasionally grumble about difficulty obtaining reservations at popular properties/seasons or the issues if they're an owner at Hacienda Del Mar, however they are typically content with their Hyatt ownership.
_
2. He said that 30% of the current owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it. _Based on what others here on TUG are saying and all the post owner update conversations with other owners at the pool, somebody is lying - either the salesman with his 30% or the owners at the pool that said they didn't buy.  My money is on the salesman as the liar.  _

3. In the month of May, they have only seen three legacy owners completely convert to the portfolio program and give up their deeded weeks permanently.  _No surprise here.  Other than someone that is too lazy or uninformed on how to use their HRC ownership, there is just no advantage to giving up your deed. If they buy into HPP, they can elect to deposit their deeded week to HPP on annual basis - it just provides more flexibility to keep the deed and by able to play on both sides of the fence.  Note: if someone doesn't know how to use what they own in HRC, I question if they'll know how to use what they own in HPP. _

4. When I questioned him about availability at the different resorts, he stated that the way the program is structured, there is availability at every one of them, including Hawaii.   When I asked him how that was possible he stated the following.  Portfolio members will be allowed to access our inventory( HRC) six months in advance just like we are. In addition, they will be allowed to access properties within PP one year In advance. I was further told there is not two waiting list, only one.  There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory.  Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek.  However, he insists that the inventory will still be available for Portfolio members. _Access to non-HPP properties is via the wait list. Just the same as HRC owners exchange their deeded week at their home resort for a different property. This is the same internal exchange scenario that has existed in the Hyatt program since 1994. 
_
5. When I told him I already had access to all of those resorts his rebuttal was there are "more locations" that will be opening up for the PP program.  When I asked him to name somewhere he could not. He said they were just looking at the history of how Marriott works. He further indicated that some of the other benefits would be no booking fees and Three years to use your points without expiring.  _I firmly believe Marriott buying ILG could be the savoir of the HPP program as it is failing miserably under ILG. _

7. He also made it a point to tell me they're only 44,000 owners in the HRC program. He said portfolio will more than double that number.  _In his dreams - I_ _firmly believe he is smoking crack or drinking too much of their own salesman coolaid.   _

8. They also told me that if I would buy into the portfolio program, my unit that I bought from a realtor would now become eligible to convert my points into world of Hyatt if I desired. The conversion rate is one point equals 43 World of Hyatt points.  He states this is the only way that a resale unit can be granted that. _ Being able to "Hyattize" a resale week is a perk used to entice HRC resale buyers to buy HPP - I'm thinking that's somewhat of a kick in the groin to HRC retail buyers that buy into HPP (they paid retail prices twice). If you own more than one resale week and buy 660 HPP points they'll allow one of the resale weeks to be Hyattized - you'd have to buy additional HPP points to Hyattize additional resale weeks.  As noted here on TUG numerous items, converting a week in a 2 bd TS unit to WOH points is not the best use of a deeded week. The conversion rate is 1 to 45 for Premier members and 1 to 50 for Elite members. _

9. This is the points that we were offered. $20,000 would buy us 1000 points with the yearly fee of $830 for maintenance. I was told, that I didn't need that many points and they can offer me the following options. 660 Point is the least amount they sell and it is $13,200. Next is 780 points and it is $15,600 last one is 880 points and it is $17,600.   They will offer a bonus  of World of Hyatt points with the last two. 50,000 and 75,000 respectively. _The "you don't need that many points" is the standard line to HRC owners - which is true if you elect to deposit your deeded week to HPP every year as you'd have enough points to confirm a nice unit/vacation - but if you didn't deposit to HPP, how nice a unit/vacation are you going to have with 660 HPP points? _

10. There is also an executive portfolio program for members with 2201 to 4399 portfolio points.  The priority access reservation window is open from 12 months to six months prior to arrival. Reservations made he made up to one day prior to arrival. _WOH went to different tiers a couple of years ago and it provides different perks based on the number of points an individual has - that same concept has been carried over HPP.  Executive is 2201 to 4399 points - Premier is 4400 to 6599 points - Elite is 6600 or more portfolio points. Each level has additional perks of reservation windows within HPP._

11. You can confirm a specific unit, Floor level or view for an additional 75 portfolio points at time of booking. _All based on availability.  Expect that to be true with HPP units - seriously question how that is possible on a wait list confirmation of an HRC unit (the HRC unit deposited isn't known until its most likely deposited at the HRPP to CUP roll date - and the reservation confirmation is an automated matching to a wait list request - that would suck if your confirmation for a ski week got passed over because you had a preference for a particular view or unit.) _

12. You can request reservations up to 18 months prior to arrival using your portfolio points to access Hyatt residence club resort inventory. I will take a picture and upload that information. So, clearly they are being told they can access our inventory.  _No doubt because there is only one wait list._

13. I was not convinced to buy into this new program as all it did was seem to make me question what the next tactic would be to get me to ante up more money. I would be interested in hearing what some of you are intending to do.  _Wise choice grasshopper. _


----------



## bdh

Tucsonadventurer said:


> The only reason H.P.P. members have access to Club inventory is that most of the members belong to both. New owners that buy in that don't own a week do not have access to Club inventory. We confirmed this with many Hyatt folks. Only ones saying differently are in sales.



I'm not in sales, so don't shoot me - but I believe/say that HPP has access to HRC club inventory.  There is only one wait list - and both HPP and HRC can be on the same list regardless of their type of ownership.


----------



## lizap

bdh said:


> Thanks for the great post update report!  Apologize in advance for segmenting your post, but there was just so many items to comment on.
> 
> 1. He further stated that 98% of current owners are not selling off their legacy units, but they are buying into the portfolio points program to give them more flexibility. _No surprise here - HRC owners may occasionally grumble about difficulty obtaining reservations at popular properties/seasons or the issues if they're an owner at Hacienda Del Mar, however they are typically content with their Hyatt ownership.
> _
> 2. He said that 30% of the current owners that are previewing the program currently buy into it. _Based on what others here on TUG are saying and all the post owner update conversations with other owners at the pool, somebody is lying - either the salesman with his 30% or the owners at the pool that said they didn't buy.  My money is on the salesman as the liar.  _
> 
> 3. In the month of May, they have only seen three legacy owners completely convert to the portfolio program and give up their deeded weeks permanently.  _No surprise here.  Other than someone that is too lazy or uninformed on how to use their HRC ownership, there is just no advantage to giving up your deed. If they buy into HPP, they can elect to deposit their deeded week to HPP on annual basis - it just provides more flexibility to keep the deed and by able to play on both sides of the fence.  Note: if someone doesn't know how to use what they own in HRC, I question if they'll know how to use what they own in HPP. _
> 
> 4. When I questioned him about availability at the different resorts, he stated that the way the program is structured, there is availability at every one of them, including Hawaii.   When I asked him how that was possible he stated the following.  Portfolio members will be allowed to access our inventory( HRC) six months in advance just like we are. In addition, they will be allowed to access properties within PP one year In advance. I was further told there is not two waiting list, only one.  There are nine properties with approximately 300 units/weeks that went into PP inventory.  Currently there are no units that have been deposited from Breckenridge, Hawaii, Siesta Keys, or Beavercreek.  However, he insists that the inventory will still be available for Portfolio members. _Access to non-HPP properties is via the wait list. Just the same as HRC owners exchange their deeded week at their home resort for a different property. This is the same internal exchange scenario that has existed in the Hyatt program since 1994.
> _
> 5. When I told him I already had access to all of those resorts his rebuttal was there are "more locations" that will be opening up for the PP program.  When I asked him to name somewhere he could not. He said they were just looking at the history of how Marriott works. He further indicated that some of the other benefits would be no booking fees and Three years to use your points without expiring.  _I firmly believe Marriott buying ILG could be the savoir of the HPP program as it is failing miserably under ILG. _
> 
> 7. He also made it a point to tell me they're only 44,000 owners in the HRC program. He said portfolio will more than double that number.  _In his dreams - I_ _firmly believe he is smoking crack or drinking too much of their own salesman coolaid.   _
> 
> 8. They also told me that if I would buy into the portfolio program, my unit that I bought from a realtor would now become eligible to convert my points into world of Hyatt if I desired. The conversion rate is one point equals 43 World of Hyatt points.  He states this is the only way that a resale unit can be granted that. _ Being able to "Hyattize" a resale week is a perk used to entice HRC resale buyers to buy HPP - I'm thinking that's somewhat of a kick in the groin to HRC retail buyers that buy into HPP (they paid retail prices twice). If you own more than one resale week and buy 660 HPP points they'll allow one of the resale weeks to be Hyattized - you'd have to buy additional HPP points to Hyattize additional resale weeks.  As noted here on TUG numerous items, converting a week in a 2 bd TS unit to WOH points is not the best use of a deeded week. The conversion rate is 1 to 45 for Premier members and 1 to 50 for Elite members. _
> 
> 9. This is the points that we were offered. $20,000 would buy us 1000 points with the yearly fee of $830 for maintenance. I was told, that I didn't need that many points and they can offer me the following options. 660 Point is the least amount they sell and it is $13,200. Next is 780 points and it is $15,600 last one is 880 points and it is $17,600.   They will offer a bonus  of World of Hyatt points with the last two. 50,000 and 75,000 respectively. _The "you don't need that many points" is the standard line to HRC owners - which is true if you elect to deposit your deeded week to HPP every year as you'd have enough points to confirm a nice unit/vacation - but if you didn't deposit to HPP, how nice a unit/vacation are you going to have with 660 HPP points? _
> 
> 10. There is also an executive portfolio program for members with 2201 to 4399 portfolio points.  The priority access reservation window is open from 12 months to six months prior to arrival. Reservations made he made up to one day prior to arrival. _WOH went to different tiers a couple of years ago and it provides different perks based on the number of points an individual has - that same concept has been carried over HPP.  Executive is 2201 to 4399 points - Premier is 4400 to 6599 points - Elite is 6600 or more portfolio points. Each level has additional perks of reservation windows within HPP._
> 
> 11. You can confirm a specific unit, Floor level or view for an additional 75 portfolio points at time of booking. _All based on availability.  Expect that to be true with HPP units - seriously question how that is possible on a wait list confirmation of an HRC unit (the HRC unit deposited isn't known until its most likely deposited at the HRPP to CUP roll date - and the reservation confirmation is an automated matching to a wait list request - that would suck if your confirmation for a ski week got passed over because you had a preference for a particular view or unit.) _
> 
> 12. You can request reservations up to 18 months prior to arrival using your portfolio points to access Hyatt residence club resort inventory. I will take a picture and upload that information. So, clearly they are being told they can access our inventory.  _No doubt because there is only one wait list._
> 
> 13. I was not convinced to buy into this new program as all it did was seem to make me question what the next tactic would be to get me to ante up more money. I would be interested in hearing what some of you are intending to do.  _Wise choice grasshopper. _



I strongly agree that PPP is likely history (or will be significantly devalued by Marriott). There is little doubt the program is a huge flop.


----------



## bdbrecheen

Kal said:


> I'm not sure if he is saying there are 300 unit-weeks from EACH property, or 300 total.  We can do some arithmetic on this:
> Let's assume there are 80 units per resort and 50 weeks per year.  That equals 4,000 unit-weeks for each resort or for 9 resorts the number is 36,000 unit-weeks.  Now with his number of 300 unit-weeks for each property that's 7% in the HPP.  For all 9 resorts, that number is 0.8% in the HPP.
> 
> In the case of Sunset Harbor (February 2018) there were 20 unit-weeks in the HPP.  And this is the basis to buy in????  It doesn't even pass the sniff test.


I did ask for clarification on this issue as well and he said 300 unit weeks from each property. So if 1 unit generates 52 weeks than that is the equivalent of roughly 6 units.  He did further stated that all new buildings at Coconut Plantation and Wild Oak Ranch would be put in to the portfolio points program only. My response was there are still the original buildings for me to book into so how is that a benefit for me as an owner? If you are not bringing any new properties to the table that are only accessible by only the portfolio program then I fail to see how it could possibly benefit me.


----------



## bdh

bdbrecheen said:


> I did ask for clarification on this issue as well and he said 300 unit weeks from each property. So if 1 unit generates 52 weeks than that is the equivalent of roughly 6 units.  He did further stated that all new buildings at Coconut Plantation and Wild Oak Ranch would be put in to the portfolio points program only. My response was there are still the original buildings for me to book into so how is that a benefit for me as an owner? If you are not bringing any new properties to the table that are only accessible by only the portfolio program then I fail to see how it could possibly benefit me.



Total number of HPP unit/weeks varies by property.  Whatever unsold week inventory Hyatt had when they made the switch to selling points was dumped into the HPP Trust.  Based on what has been confirmed by Hyatt sales, there's 20 units at Sunset Harbor and lots of units at Windward Pointe.  Beach House was pretty much sold out, so there might be 75 units in HPP. None of the units in Bldg 7 and 8 at WP were sold as weeks - with 12 units per bldg x 51 weeks (1 week is maintenance week) x 2 bldgs puts approx 1225 units into HPP.  Wild Oak had approx 1000 unsold weeks left in the original buildings and the 2 new bldgs that will be all HPP puts approx 2225 units into HPP.  Not sure how many unsold weeks were left in the original Coconut Plantation bldgs, but the 2 new bldgs would put another 1225 into HPP. The rumor of a new property in Key West (if it ever happens) would be all HPP. 

All of that said, in general it doesn't matter too much the how many units are at each property as the majority of the reservation confirmations will come from the wait list via HRC units that roll from HRPP to CUP at any property - and could be pulled by an HPP or an HRC owner.  There will be some exceptions where it does matter how many HPP units are at a property.  ie: Sunset Harbor has the highest percentage of owners in the system that use their deeded week, so there isn't a high number of HRC or HPP exchangers. 

Until there are new/different locations for HPP than the current HRC locations, there's limited merit to be an HPP owner.  Unfortunately, some HRC owners are falling prey to the sales pitch and buy HPP thinking it will solve the difficulty they've had with confirming reservations at high demand properties and seasons.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

bdh said:


> I'm not in sales, so don't shoot me - but I believe/say that HPP has access to HRC club inventory.  There is only one wait list - and both HPP and HRC can be on the same list regardless of their type of ownership.


A portfolio owner that does not own a club week can not wait list for Hawaii or Siesta Key etc. so even though there is only 1 wait list they won't be on it. I am not worried about portfolio but am anticipating needing to do something with Marriottt  in the future as we also never use our set weeks.


----------



## bdh

Tucsonadventurer said:


> A portfolio owner that does not own a club week can not wait list for Hawaii or Siesta Key etc. so even though there is only 1 wait list they won't be on it. I am not worried about portfolio but am anticipating needing to do something with Marriottt  in the future as we also never use our set weeks.



That would be good if members that own only HPP can't access HRC units and I hope that is the scenario - but I hadn't heard that from Hyatt before.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

bdh said:


> That would be good if members that own only HPP can't access HRC units and I hope that is the scenario - but I hadn't heard that from Hyatt before.


We heard it from owners services and from the manager at Cocunut Plantation. From sales I heard the opposite, that basically we would never be able to exchange as everyone would be in portfolio.


----------



## Cropman

Since I haven’t been allowed by Hyatt, to go to a presentation, I have a question.  Let’s say I join HPP.  I elect to keep my deeded week.  I die and my kids now have my deeded week and my points.  Are they part of HPP with the same rights as I had?  Or, do they have to buy HPP points all over again, if they want to participate?  Discuss.


----------



## WalnutBaron

Cropman said:


> Since I haven’t been allowed by Hyatt, to go to a presentation, I have a question.  Let’s say I join HPP.  I elect to keep my deeded week.  I die and my kids now have my deeded week and my points.  Are they part of HPP with the same rights as I had?  Or, do they have to buy HPP points all over again, if they want to participate?  Discuss.


I'm assuming you own both HPP and a fixed week legacy unit in the scenario you're presenting. If you include the passing of HPP points to your kids in your will, they will be the recipients of those points with the same ownership rights you had. Of course, they also inherit the annual maintenance fee obligation--and they will have the option to refuse to receive the HPP and the MF obligation if they choose to do so by notifying Hyatt of their wishes.

In addition, they will have the option to keep your deeded week as well. I would think that the intrinsic value of the deeded week (assuming it is either a Platinum or Diamond week) is much higher than the value of the points.


----------



## Kal

Cropman said:


> Since I haven’t been allowed by Hyatt, to go to a presentation, I have a question.  Let’s say I join HPP.  I elect to keep my deeded week.  I die and my kids now have my deeded week and my points.  Are they part of HPP with the same rights as I had?  Or, do they have to buy HPP points all over again, if they want to participate?  Discuss.


It would be interesting to see how it plays out.  Is there a right of survivorship clause in the contract?  If the "asset" is in the will, does the beneficiary have to accept the HPP points (and MF)?  What if no one wants the HPP points?  The $13K purchase price could be gone if there is no way to sell the points.  If you die, the spouse will likely receive everything you had in your name.

It might be nice to have an option to selectively discard anything Hyatt on the passing especially considering the future cost of the MF.  6%/year compounded annually is like real money.


----------



## bdbrecheen

bdh said:


> That would be good if members that own only HPP can't access HRC units and I hope that is the scenario - but I hadn't heard that from Hyatt before.


Well, let me offer this info that I was given from 3 different salesmen at 2 different resorts, Coconut Plantation and Windward Pointe. All 3 of them stated that people who are in the HPP can go on the wait list 12 months in advance of a desired reservation date to stat at ANY of the HRC properties, including the one that have no weeks deposited in them. This includes Hawaii, Breckenridge, Lake Tahoe, etc. They will be allowed to access the properties as part of their program. Now, whether they get a confirmed reservation remains to be seen.


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## bdbrecheen

Tucsonadventurer said:


> A portfolio owner that does not own a club week can not wait list for Hawaii or Siesta Key etc. so even though there is only 1 wait list they won't be on it. I am not worried about portfolio but am anticipating needing to do something with Marriottt  in the future as we also never use our set weeks.


Well, let me offer this info that I was given from 3 different salesmen at 2 different resorts, Coconut Plantation and Windward Pointe. All 3 of them stated that people who are in the HPP can go on the wait list 12 months in advance of a desired reservation date to stat at ANY of the HRC properties, including the one that have no weeks deposited in them. This includes Hawaii, Breckenridge, Lake Tahoe, etc. They will be allowed to access the properties as part of their program. Now, whether they get a confirmed reservation remains to be seen.


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## Tucsonadventurer

bdbrecheen said:


> Well, let me offer this info that I was given from 3 different salesmen at 2 different resorts, Coconut Plantation and Windward Pointe. All 3 of them stated that people who are in the HPP can go on the wait list 12 months in advance of a desired reservation date to stat at ANY of the HRC properties, including the one that have no weeks deposited in them. This includes Hawaii, Breckenridge, Lake Tahoe, etc. They will be allowed to access the properties as part of their program. Now, whether they get a confirmed reservation remains to be seen.


That is information from sales. I would ask that question to owners services and see what your answer is. I hear lots of false information from sales and put little stock in fear tactics. Maybe the information is accurate but base it on asking a neutral party with no ulterior motive.


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## taffy19

That is a very good idea and let us know what their answer is.  Better yet, do it in writing.


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## Kal

Before we get our tails in a knot, just remember the number of HPP owners is very small.  Plan in advance and they won't do to much damage to the legacy program.  Most importantly, DO NOT listen to anything from the lips of the hucksters.  Believe only what you see in written rules.  The slide show is only meaningful if you have a bag of popcorn.  Don't consider the slide show as written material.  Read the hardcopy.

An owner friend walked away looking at the "value" of using HPP points for non-timeshare usage i.e. Interval, Hotels, airfare, etc.  All this without ever looking at the points schedule for using those options.  I'll have to admit, I don't know anyone who has seen that schedule.  If someone has it, please share.


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## Rick E

OK, folks. We did an “update” on Saturday. It was our first, as i was given the week at Piniion Point by my fathers. We were All ready to say not to buying more timeshares/points. Well, they had some great points, as we have never used our week. Just 2 Hyatt weeks in 9 years of ownership. Otherwise, we deposit in II.  Well, we said no and they came back with the closer, i guess. She offered us the following, and we signed up. I’m wondering if you ALL would say no, with having the 2 years to decide. The deal was............

48,000 WOH points...... 3, or 4 nights at a Hyatt.
4 nights at one of 5 resorts.
2 or 3 other small benefits.

It cost us about 1,600 dollars, that is bing financed over 16 months at 0 percent. This gives us the right to pay 20 bucks per point any time in the next 2 years. I’m thinking since there is so much uncertainty in the new system, that this may be an OK deal.

I know most will say “NO.” But, again, with the wait period, maybe some would say...... “eh.”

I can still use my “free look period” and cancel if we choose. Just trying to make the right decision. 

thanks for all the help here.


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## vacationtime1

Rick E said:


> OK, folks. We did an “update” on Saturday. It was our first, as i was given the week at Piniion Point by my fathers. We were All ready to say not to buying more timeshares/points. Well, they had some great points, as we have never used our week. Just 2 Hyatt weeks in 9 years of ownership. Otherwise, we deposit in II.  Well, we said no and they came back with the closer, i guess. She offered us the following, and we signed up. I’m wondering if you ALL would say no, with having the 2 years to decide. The deal was............
> 
> 48,000 WOH points...... 3, or 4 nights at a Hyatt.
> 4 nights at one of 5 resorts.
> 2 or 3 other small benefits.
> 
> It cost us about 1,600 dollars, that is bing financed over 16 months at 0 percent. This gives us the right to pay 20 bucks per point any time in the next 2 years. I’m thinking since there is so much uncertainty in the new system, that this may be an OK deal.
> 
> I know most will say “NO.” But, again, with the wait period, maybe some would say...... “eh.”
> 
> I can still use my “free look period” and cancel if we choose. Just trying to make the right decision.
> 
> thanks for all the help here.



The 48K WOH points is only 2K short of the number of points you need for _two_ nights at a high end Hyatt.

4 nights at a resort you want to visit?  What size room?  What seasons are available?

But the real reason you should just say "no" and cancel is that you will be subjected to another sales pitch during your 4 night stay.  If you succumb to *that* sales pitch (and you are on the cusp of succumbing to this one), it will cost you thousands of dollars.  The easiest way to avoid the problem is to say "no" now.

Besides, the $1,600 deal isn't that good of a deal anyway.


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## Rick E

Vtime1

We aren’t exactly high end folk. It’s also 2k points shy of 5 nights stay in a Hyatt place. Worth $400  + - easy. 

Wild oak, coconut, Carmel and 2 others that we would be happy visiting. A 1 bedroom suite is offered with option to pay $50 per night for a 2 bedroom upgrade to bring the kids or another couple. Availability, I’m sure, is not great.  But with our 1240 points, we’ve been trying to jump through hoops for years. Once more wont be so bad. 

Yes. Another sales pitch would be required. Sure we could say no (kinda) again. The only reason we did this one (so far) is because we had 2 years to decide. On the big purchase and what might happen to the program. 

I appreciate you looking out for us.


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## Kal

They're baiting you with small stuff.  The next step is to pay $13,000 for only 660 HPP points that are pretty much worthless.  If you think the $1600 deal is a value, then do it.  But remember, the stays are based on availability at those 5 resorts and you have to cover transportation to get there.  The WOH points does not get you into a high quality Hyatt, just the low to mid-range stuff.

Keep your eye on the $13,000 price tag!


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## WalnutBaron

Rick E said:


> Vtime1
> 
> We aren’t exactly high end folk. It’s also 2k points shy of 5 nights stay in a Hyatt place. Worth $400  + - easy.
> 
> Wild oak, coconut, Carmel and 2 others that we would be happy visiting. A 1 bedroom suite is offered with option to pay $50 per night for a 2 bedroom upgrade to bring the kids or another couple. Availability, I’m sure, is not great.  But with our 1240 points, we’ve been trying to jump through hoops for years. Once more wont be so bad.
> 
> Yes. Another sales pitch would be required. Sure we could say no (kinda) again. The only reason we did this one (so far) is because we had 2 years to decide. On the big purchase and what might happen to the program.
> 
> I appreciate you looking out for us.


Looking at this dispassionately, here is what you've bought: 1) a nice vacation for about $400/night in a 1BR timeshare unit (maybe...sometimes, they put you in a nearby hotel); WOH points that will get you almost 2 nights in a standard Hyatt property--nothing deluxe; 3) the reality that you will be undergoing a second high-pressure sales pitch for the Points Program, which is a complete waste of about $13,000 (for example, right now you can buy 2 2BR Platinum units at Pinon Pointe for about the same amount of money).

If it's not too late to rescind on what you've bought, rescind. If it is too late, book your return trip to Pinon Pointe and be absolutely determined NOT to sign a single purchase document for the Points program.


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## bdh

bdbrecheen said:


> Well, let me offer this info that I was given from 3 different salesmen at 2 different resorts, Coconut Plantation and Windward Pointe. All 3 of them stated that people who are in the HPP can go on the wait list 12 months in advance of a desired reservation date to stat at ANY of the HRC properties, including the one that have no weeks deposited in them. This includes Hawaii, Breckenridge, Lake Tahoe, etc. They will be allowed to access the properties as part of their program. Now, whether they get a confirmed reservation remains to be seen.





Tucsonadventurer said:


> That is information from sales. I would ask that question to owners services and see what your answer is. I hear lots of false information from sales and put little stock in fear tactics. Maybe the information is accurate but base it on asking a neutral party with no ulterior motive.



In my previous call/conversation with the Go Hyatt agent, they said that HPP can make and confirm HRC reservations via the wait list.  Anyone else heard anything when talking to Go Hyatt reservations?


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## lizap

bdh said:


> In my previous call/conversation with the Go Hyatt agent, they said that HPP can make and confirm HRC reservations via the wait list.  Anyone else heard anything when talking to Go Hyatt reservations?



I really don't see this as too relevant. MVC is likely to either do away with PPP or make it irrelevant. They are not likely to keep/promote a system that is not making them $. I strongly suspect they will create a system, like the one they created at Marriott, allowing people to buy in at a nominal cost.


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> I really don't see this as too relevant. MVC is likely to either do away with PPP or make it irrelevant. They are not likely to keep/promote a system that is not making them $. I strongly suspect they will create a system, like the one they created at Marriott, allowing people to buy in at a nominal cost.



If this is what Marriott ends up doing, its going to really irritate the folks who have bought into HPP.


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## Pathways

Sapper said:


> If this is what Marriott ends up doing, its going to really irritate the folks who have bought into HPP.



I doubt Marriott will be too concerned about those 5 people!


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## Kal

Pathways said:


> I doubt Marriott will be too concerned about those 5 people!


You are really on top of this HPP thing.  I only know of TWO owners who took the bait.


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## Sapper

Kal said:


> You are really on top of this HPP thing.  I only know of TWO owners who took the bait.



He was just rounding up.


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## lizap

Sapper said:


> If this is what Marriott ends up doing, its going to really irritate the folks who have bought into HPP.



Doubt that the feelings of HPP owners will be very important to MVC.


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## Rick E

Ok. We sent the cancellation paperwork and are ready to sign a contract for a secondary market silver windward point for $2,150 ALL IN. How’s that?


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## Sapper

Rick E said:


> Ok. We sent the cancellation paperwork and are ready to sign a contract for a secondary market silver windward point for $2,150 ALL IN. How’s that?



There's a platinum (2000pts) Windward on fleBay right now for $309 with free closing. It ends in three days. 

The plus is this probably will stay under $2k. The seller is a negative, but that will probably keep the price low.  It will probably pass ROFR right now because of all the changes going on with the new ownership plus the disaster that the points program is and how much inventory Hyatt currently has in the HPP from Windward. 

The negative is the seller. They have a low feedback raiting, have only an 85% positive raiting, and you can read mixed reviews here on TUG re the seller.

So, higher risk than that silver you found for $2k, but also higher reward... Both in the potential purchase price and in the points cost related to maintenance fee in the future (more points for the same maintenance fee).


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## SHG

I just completed a stay at the Hyatt Bonita Springs. My wife and I were exceptionally impressed and I decided to look into the Hyatt program. My research has made me interested in a Platinum Season Hyatt Pinon Point (lowest maint fees). The one thing my research has not been clear on is how does this program work with Interval? I have seen where you deposit a certain amount of points in Interval, or do you deposit your whole week?? I cant seem to find clear answers...  Any Hyatt experts here?

Also, is the Interval annual fee included in the annual dues?? Or do you have to pay Interval as a separate added cost??


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## alexadeparis

SHG said:


> I just completed a stay at the Hyatt Bonita Springs. My wife and I were exceptionally impressed and I decided to look into the Hyatt program. My research has made me interested in a Platinum Season Hyatt Pinon Point (lowest maint fees). The one thing my research has not been clear on is how does this program work with Interval? I have seen where you deposit a certain amount of points in Interval, or do you deposit your whole week?? I cant seem to find clear answers...  Any Hyatt experts here?
> 
> Also, is the Interval annual fee included in the annual dues?? Or do you have to pay Interval as a separate added cost??



Interval membership is included and will be automatically set up for you. Once in there, You click on your unit use year in interval, 2018, 2019, etc. then it asks how many points you want to use on a size season grid. I always click the highest number because then it shows you the maximum units, with all the point values. The price in points varies by size and season, and in instant exchange you simply click through to make the exchange and it will deduct the required points from your account. So just because you initially click 1300 points doesn’t Mean anything. They only deduct the actual points for what you need on the exchange if you find a lesser unit. For ongoing search, you put in the request with the maximum points you are willing to spend for your request. But of course, you need to make sure you have enough points to actually get the size and season you are requesting, or you won’t get a match.


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## SHG

alexadeparis said:


> Interval membership is included and will be automatically set up for you. Once in there, You click on your unit use year in interval, 2018, 2019, etc. then it asks how many points you want to use on a size season grid. I always click the highest number because then it shows you the maximum units, with all the point values. The price in points varies by size and season, and in instant exchange you simply click through to make the exchange and it will deduct the required points from your account. So just because you initially click 1300 points doesn’t Mean anything. They only deduct the actual points for what you need on the exchange if you find a lesser unit. For ongoing search, you put in the request with the maximum points you are willing to spend for your request. But of course, you need to make sure you have enough points to actually get the size and season you are requesting, or you won’t get a match.



Excellent explanation. Thank You! This helps


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## Kal

I spoke with someone who recently bought into the HPP.  They were told by the huckster you can leave your legacy units in place and the Portfolio will transfer as many points as needed to confirm a Portfolio reservation.  They thought the HPP was a great idea because they could "double dip" on the request list.  One request in HPP and the other in HRC.  How interesting is that!  If something is too good to believe, it's too good to believe.

IF TRUE, that would mean the Portfolio would not receive an intact legacy week or for that matter who knows what it would receive?  As we all know the basis of the HPP is to grow the inventory with useable time share weeks.  The "double dip" notion is meaningless if an owner does not have actual and sufficient Portfolio points to confirm a wait list reservation.  The only way to have sufficient Portfolio points is to actually transfer a full legacy week into the HPP.  In so doing you would reduce your legacy CUP point total and likely reduce your opportunities to confirm a legacy request.  Of course the real issue on the HPP is availability.  On the assumption that about 3% of the legacy weeks have been transferred into the HPP, the success rate of confirming a requested reservation is about nil (plus or minus).

And by the way, I doubt very seriously the ~$13,000 buy into HPP can be refunded.


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## WalnutBaron

Kal said:


> I spoke with someone who recently bought into the HPP.  They were told by the huckster you can leave your legacy units in place and the Portfolio will transfer as many points as needed to confirm a Portfolio reservation.  They thought the HPP was a great idea because they could "double dip" on the request list.  One request in HPP and the other in HRC.  How interesting is that!  If something is too good to believe, it's too good to believe.
> 
> IF TRUE, that would mean the Portfolio would not receive an intact legacy week or for that matter who knows what it would receive?  As we all know the basis of the HPP is to grow the inventory with useable time share weeks.  The "double dip" notion is meaningless if an owner does not have actual and sufficient Portfolio points to confirm a wait list reservation.  The only way to have sufficient Portfolio points is to actually transfer a full legacy week into the HPP.  In so doing you would reduce your legacy CUP point total and likely reduce your opportunities to confirm a legacy request.  Of course the real issue on the HPP is availability.  On the assumption that about 3% of the legacy weeks have been transferred into the HPP, the success rate of confirming a requested reservation is about nil (plus or minus).
> 
> And by the way, I doubt very seriously the ~$13,000 buy into HPP can be refunded.


If true, Kal, the HPP is something akin to a Ponzi scheme, where Hyatt is counting on enough legacy conversions to be able to satisfy the HPP reservation requests. Without those conversions, HPP contains a boatload of promises with almost no way of fulfilling them. And without the backup of the hard asset--which is the actual week being transferred to HPP--the whole scheme would be nothing short of fraudulent. I suspect the buyer you spoke to was hoodwinked by a lying sales weasel. If what the weasel said is true, then HPP truly is a fraudulent enterprise.


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## Kal

WalnutBaron said:


> If true, Kal, the HPP is something akin to a Ponzi scheme, .... I suspect the buyer you spoke to was hoodwinked by a lying sales weasel. If what the weasel said is true, then HPP truly is a fraudulent enterprise.


This situation pinpoints the risk in transferring a HRC unit to HPP.  You give up a demonstrated ability to exchange within HRC for a very large uncertainty in the HPP.  As an aside, this new HPP buyer is looking at all the "great" opportunities to spend HPP points on non-timeshare ideas such as hotels.  I asked if they looked at the pricing chart for any specific hotels available thru HPP?  They said they did not look.  I suggested they use the Hyatt Hotel exchange options in HRC as a guide to what they will see in HPP.


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## bdh

WalnutBaron said:


> If true, Kal, the HPP is something akin to a Ponzi scheme, where Hyatt is counting on enough legacy conversions to be able to satisfy the HPP reservation requests. Without those conversions, HPP contains a boatload of promises with almost no way of fulfilling them. And without the backup of the hard asset--which is the actual week being transferred to HPP--the whole scheme would be nothing short of fraudulent. I suspect the buyer you spoke to was hoodwinked by a lying sales weasel. If what the weasel said is true, then HPP truly is a fraudulent enterprise.



I don't believe that HPP is fradulent in anyway shape or form as I'm sure they have a "week" in the trust to back up every set of HPP points sold (how could they not have 5 weeks in the trust for the 5 "weeks" they've sold - haha).  The problem is that the weeks/locations they have in the trust, aren't weeks that owners are typically requesting - and while HPP owners can access the legacy week wait list, for the most part they aren't knowledgeable enough to get the reservations that the salesman are telling them they have access to.


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## Kal

I have a question regarding the Points Program that I didn't ask during the "owner's update".  I was told that every year an owner with legacy units has two options.  The first is keep your legacy units as is with no change from business as usual.  The second option is to transfer one or more legacy units into the HPP.  This decision must be made during the first 12 weeks of the new year.

The question is the timing of the 12 weeks.  Does it start on January 1 and end 12 weeks later?  Or does it start when the owner receives next year's new points?  No matter what the answer, this could be a nightmare in managing reservation request lists and using your points.  If you owned two units at different times in the year, it would really be difficult to plan between Legacy and HPP.

Think hard about all the details that would complicate the issue.  As a beginning, if you transfer one week to HPP, those points would no longer be available to legacy week bookings.  You could still be on the Legacy request list, but if a unit became available, you might not have enough points for the booking.

It would be fun to ask the hucksters to lay this all out in precise detail.  But then your head would start hurting and need to leave.


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## taterhed

I can't imagine MVC will keep or try to integrate Hyatt. Great resorts, scary-bad points system.
Any thing Marriott does would anger owners on one side or both.

Guess we'll wait and see.


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## Sapper

taterhed said:


> I can't imagine MVC will keep or try to integrate Hyatt. Great resorts, scary-bad points system.
> Any thing Marriott does would anger owners on one side or both.
> 
> Guess we'll wait and see.



The problem is, I'm not sure how they are going to fix it.  I guess they could give all the HPP owners their money back, dump what was the HPP inventory into II or some kind of mega point program that includes other properties, and then offer some kind of "deal" to the former HPP owners to buy back into the super points program.  They have really made a mess of things.


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## DMSTWO

*I'm a Marriott and Hyatt owner*...reading this thread gave me a wicked HEADACHE...  Almost every argument presented here is a direct repeat of what happened at Marriott Vacation Club a few years ago (see the TUG Marriott Forum).


*Here are a few things I learned through the Marriott program transition from use weeks to a points system (called the destination club).*


I may have a few errors in by below description, such as prices, terms and time periods, but for the most part I believe the discussion itself to be quite accurate.


*Those of you thinking Hyatt will scrape the Points Program most likely will be grossly disappointed.  I say this because sometime in late 2016 or early 2017 Hyatt Vacation Club happily proclaimed at one of Pinon Point Owner Updates, that they had hired a well experienced industry professional to help with strategic planning and program improvements.*  I don't recall his name, but when a resort manager told me his name, my spirits sank...*he was none other than one of the major architects of the Marriott Point program.  *And that program was still having significant growing pains.

1  The use week owners and the points owners both hold deeds.

  a)  The Use Week owners have a deed to a physical piece of property for a specific week (even if it is a floating week in terms of the program, there is an actual underlying deeded week recorded with the state or county).

  b)  Points owners own a fractional share of a Trust.  The trust holds the formal ownerships of a collection of specific use weeks at various resorts.  As additional units/use weeks are added to the trust, additional trust points are added maintaining the balance between ownership and availability.  Points assigned to a unit when added to the trust are based on desirability.  So a diamond week at a particular resort is worth more points than a bronze week at that resort.


2  The program cannot sell more points than are supported by the underlying deeds.  So, if as described in some of the previous posts, 20 deeded use weeks at Sunset Harbor are currently held in the trust, and if they were the only weeks in the trust, then Hyatt could only sell enough points to book those 20 unit weeks.

3  The maintenance fees for points are the prorata average of all maintenance fees attributable to all underlying deed held in the trust.  So if we stick with the 20 Sunset Harbor example, the total maintenance fees to be collected by the trust would be 20 weeks of Sunset Harbor Maintenance Fees for the respective unit sizes divided by the total number of trust points.  If they later add 10 Pinon Point use weeks, those maintenance fees are added and the maintenance fees adjusted accordingly.  *You will not pay redundant Maintenance Fees if you join the points program.  Your use week maintenance fees will still be as they were, and yes you will pay Maintenance Fees on any Trust Points you may have bought, but you will not pay additional fees on the weeks you deposit.*

5  Marriott, and now Hyatt realized that their portfolios had stagnated and they need cashflow and upside potential to justify building of new Resorts.  They found they were holding an inventory of less desirable weeks at various resorts that they were struggling to sell (i.e. inferior resorts, undesirable seasons, etc.).  They were also burdened by covering maintenance fees for these undesirable weeks, and their underlying initial investment for these units was deteriorating over time.  So they decided to create the points system as a new marketing approach.

6  The initial portfolio of the Points Programs were all those undesirable weeks.  They had to find a way to include more desirable weeks in the mix.  So they started exercising ROFR on the most desirable weeks at the most desirable resorts.  They also announced plans to build new resorts.

7  They also stimulate availability by enrolling use week owners in the points program on the hope that they will deposit desirable weeks into the program.  At Marriott they allowed week owners to enroll in the points program for a minimal fee (if I recall correctly about $1300) if they did it in the first several months of the program.  As time went on, the cost to "enroll" increased.  After about 12-18 months they would only allow a use week owner to enroll if they paid a lower enrollment fee (+/- $750), along with purchasing a minimum number of trust points directly.  Hyatt evidently decided to jump right into the "you must buy a minimum number of points (currently 780) in order to be allowed to link you use weeks to the points program.

*What was learned about exchanges at  Marriott*

8 There is no way a Use Week Owner can reserve/use a Trust Points unit, nor can a Points owner reserve a use week...  *Unless and Until an owner in each program agrees to the swap*.  This would naturally be handled by these reservation/exchange system, not directly between owners.  To this day many Marriott Timeshare Salesmen don't know this or chose to plead ignorance when asked the particulars of the exchange program.

9  So to make these exchanges legal and compatible, there needs to be three... *yes three separate inventories maintained.  *On TUG and within the Marriott system they are called Buckets


  a) The first bucket is use weeks traded for another use week.  *In this bucket use week owners can only trade with use week owners.*

  b) The second bucket is Points Program unit/weeks only.  *These can only be reserved by Points Owners.*

  c) The third bucket is the exchange across programs.  *All points owners have access to this inventory, but only use week owners that have deposited their use week into the points program for that specific year *to have access.

When they deposit the use week, they basically become temporary points owners and are assigned a number of points appropriate to the value of the week deposited.

A use week owner however can only deposit and receive program points if there are excess points available (remember legally the trust cannot exceed the number of points equal to the points value of the trusts underlying actual deeded weeks).   *This limits the number of owners that can deposit weeks into the trust program.  This is not unlike converting your week to Hyatt Hotel Points...first come first served.*

So, where do excess points come from?  If a points owner exchanges into a use week unit, the value of the points used for that transfer become available as "excess points available," also the developer that has unsold inventory can make their points available as excess points.


*So why enroll in the points program?*

Over time, with development of additional resorts, ROFRs, non-participating resorts being approved by their respective state real estate departments, and unit foreclosures, the available number of units and points grows.

Access to this portion of the portfolio will no be available to non-participation use week owners (except through II external exchange which is allowed by Marriott, but not Hyatt).

For many this is not a concern, for others it will be.

Our experience exhanging through II into Marriott properties has gotten significantly harder since Marriott started their points program.  It seems to be getting worse, as more Marriott transfers are occurring within their three bucket system.

Over at Marriott there was initially, a tremendous resistance by the use week owners... not so much anymore.  Everybody has learned to work within the system or systems to which they are enrolled.  
*
My wife and I have access to both use weeks and point in Marriott, as well as, Hyatt.  *For us the flexibility and reach offered by participating in both suits our purpose.

​


----------



## scsu_hockey_fan

One thing to keep in mind is that Marriott weeks did not have points previously assigned to them, whereas hyatt weeks already had a point system in place, which should make it easier. I believe at the 6 month mark the two inventories are fair game for anyone. I'm now wondering if the reason behind the point adjustment for the Florida resorts was strategic to lower the cost per point of the new system as there is a lot of room to grow at coconut plantation and the before mentioned "new" possible resort for key west, which if true would help explain the major points adjustment that we saw. The thing that gets me is some time  far far down the road these resorts will eventually be under water, literally., and what happens then with all the points in trust but no place to stay? 


DMSTWO said:


> *I'm a Marriott and Hyatt owner*...reading this thread gave me a wicked HEADACHE...  Almost every argument presented here is a direct repeat of what happened at Marriott Vacation Club a few years ago (see the TUG Marriott Forum).
> 
> 
> *Here are a few things I learned through the Marriott program transition from use weeks to a points system (called the destination club).*
> 
> 
> I may have a few errors in by below description, such as prices, terms and time periods, but for the most part I believe the discussion itself to be quite accurate.
> 
> 
> *Those of you thinking Hyatt will scrape the Points Program most likely will be grossly disappointed.  I say this because sometime in late 2016 or early 2017 Hyatt Vacation Club happily proclaimed at one of Pinon Point Owner Updates, that they had hired a well experienced industry professional to help with strategic planning and program improvements.*  I don't recall his name, but when a resort manager told me his name, my spirits sank...*he was none other than one of the major architects of the Marriott Point program.  *And that program was still having significant growing pains.
> 
> 1  The use week owners and the points owners both hold deeds.
> 
> a)  The Use Week owners have a deed to a physical piece of property for a specific week (even if it is a floating week in terms of the program, there is an actual underlying deeded week recorded with the state or county).
> 
> b)  Points owners own a fractional share of a Trust.  The trust holds the formal ownerships of a collection of specific use weeks at various resorts.  As additional units/use weeks are added to the trust, additional trust points are added maintaining the balance between ownership and availability.  Points assigned to a unit when added to the trust are based on desirability.  So a diamond week at a particular resort is worth more points than a bronze week at that resort.
> 
> 
> 2  The program cannot sell more points than are supported by the underlying deeds.  So, if as described in some of the previous posts, 20 deeded use weeks at Sunset Harbor are currently held in the trust, and if they were the only weeks in the trust, then Hyatt could only sell enough points to book those 20 unit weeks.
> 
> 3  The maintenance fees for points are the prorata average of all maintenance fees attributable to all underlying deed held in the trust.  So if we stick with the 20 Sunset Harbor example, the total maintenance fees to be collected by the trust would be 20 weeks of Sunset Harbor Maintenance Fees for the respective unit sizes divided by the total number of trust points.  If they later add 10 Pinon Point use weeks, those maintenance fees are added and the maintenance fees adjusted accordingly.  *You will not pay redundant Maintenance Fees if you join the points program.  Your use week maintenance fees will still be as they were, and yes you will pay Maintenance Fees on any Trust Points you may have bought, but you will not pay additional fees on the weeks you deposit.*
> 
> 5  Marriott, and now Hyatt realized that their portfolios had stagnated and they need cashflow and upside potential to justify building of new Resorts.  They found they were holding an inventory of less desirable weeks at various resorts that they were struggling to sell (i.e. inferior resorts, undesirable seasons, etc.).  They were also burdened by covering maintenance fees for these undesirable weeks, and their underlying initial investment for these units was deteriorating over time.  So they decided to create the points system as a new marketing approach.
> 
> 6  The initial portfolio of the Points Programs were all those undesirable weeks.  They had to find a way to include more desirable weeks in the mix.  So they started exercising ROFR on the most desirable weeks at the most desirable resorts.  They also announced plans to build new resorts.
> 
> 7  They also stimulate availability by enrolling use week owners in the points program on the hope that they will deposit desirable weeks into the program.  At Marriott they allowed week owners to enroll in the points program for a minimal fee (if I recall correctly about $1300) if they did it in the first several months of the program.  As time went on, the cost to "enroll" increased.  After about 12-18 months they would only allow a use week owner to enroll if they paid a lower enrollment fee (+/- $750), along with purchasing a minimum number of trust points directly.  Hyatt evidently decided to jump right into the "you must buy a minimum number of points (currently 780) in order to be allowed to link you use weeks to the points program.
> 
> *What was learned about exchanges at  Marriott*
> 
> 8 There is no way a Use Week Owner can reserve/use a Trust Points unit, nor can a Points owner reserve a use week...  *Unless and Until an owner in each program agrees to the swap*.  This would naturally be handled by these reservation/exchange system, not directly between owners.  To this day many Marriott Timeshare Salesmen don't know this or chose to plead ignorance when asked the particulars of the exchange program.
> 
> 9  So to make these exchanges legal and compatible, there needs to be three... *yes three separate inventories maintained.  *On TUG and within the Marriott system they are called Buckets
> 
> 
> a) The first bucket is use weeks traded for another use week.  *In this bucket use week owners can only trade with use week owners.*
> 
> b) The second bucket is Points Program unit/weeks only.  *These can only be reserved by Points Owners.*
> 
> c) The third bucket is the exchange across programs.  *All points owners have access to this inventory, but only use week owners that have deposited their use week into the points program for that specific year *to have access.
> 
> When they deposit the use week, they basically become temporary points owners and are assigned a number of points appropriate to the value of the week deposited.
> 
> A use week owner however can only deposit and receive program points if there are excess points available (remember legally the trust cannot exceed the number of points equal to the points value of the trusts underlying actual deeded weeks).   *This limits the number of owners that can deposit weeks into the trust program.  This is not unlike converting your week to Hyatt Hotel Points...first come first served.*
> 
> So, where do excess points come from?  If a points owner exchanges into a use week unit, the value of the points used for that transfer become available as "excess points available," also the developer that has unsold inventory can make their points available as excess points.
> 
> 
> *So why enroll in the points program?*
> 
> Over time, with development of additional resorts, ROFRs, non-participating resorts being approved by their respective state real estate departments, and unit foreclosures, the available number of units and points grows.
> 
> Access to this portion of the portfolio will no be available to non-participation use week owners (except through II external exchange which is allowed by Marriott, but not Hyatt).
> 
> For many this is not a concern, for others it will be.
> 
> Our experience exhanging through II into Marriott properties has gotten significantly harder since Marriott started their points program.  It seems to be getting worse, as more Marriott transfers are occurring within their three bucket system.
> 
> Over at Marriott there was initially, a tremendous resistance by the use week owners... not so much anymore.  Everybody has learned to work within the system or systems to which they are enrolled.
> *
> My wife and I have access to both use weeks and point in Marriott, as well as, Hyatt.  *For us the flexibility and reach offered by participating in both suits our purpose.
> 
> ​


----------



## Sapper

DMSTWO said:


> *I'm a Marriott and Hyatt owner*...reading this thread gave me a wicked HEADACHE...  Almost every argument presented here is a direct repeat of what happened at Marriott Vacation Club a few years ago (see the TUG Marriott Forum).
> 
> 
> *Here are a few things I learned through the Marriott program transition from use weeks to a points system (called the destination club).*
> 
> 
> I may have a few errors in by below description, such as prices, terms and time periods, but for the most part I believe the discussion itself to be quite accurate.
> 
> 
> *Those of you thinking Hyatt will scrape the Points Program most likely will be grossly disappointed.  I say this because sometime in late 2016 or early 2017 Hyatt Vacation Club happily proclaimed at one of Pinon Point Owner Updates, that they had hired a well experienced industry professional to help with strategic planning and program improvements.*  I don't recall his name, but when a resort manager told me his name, my spirits sank...*he was none other than one of the major architects of the Marriott Point program.  *And that program was still having significant growing pains.
> 
> 1  The use week owners and the points owners both hold deeds.
> 
> a)  The Use Week owners have a deed to a physical piece of property for a specific week (even if it is a floating week in terms of the program, there is an actual underlying deeded week recorded with the state or county).
> 
> b)  Points owners own a fractional share of a Trust.  The trust holds the formal ownerships of a collection of specific use weeks at various resorts.  As additional units/use weeks are added to the trust, additional trust points are added maintaining the balance between ownership and availability.  Points assigned to a unit when added to the trust are based on desirability.  So a diamond week at a particular resort is worth more points than a bronze week at that resort.
> 
> 
> 2  The program cannot sell more points than are supported by the underlying deeds.  So, if as described in some of the previous posts, 20 deeded use weeks at Sunset Harbor are currently held in the trust, and if they were the only weeks in the trust, then Hyatt could only sell enough points to book those 20 unit weeks.
> 
> 3  The maintenance fees for points are the prorata average of all maintenance fees attributable to all underlying deed held in the trust.  So if we stick with the 20 Sunset Harbor example, the total maintenance fees to be collected by the trust would be 20 weeks of Sunset Harbor Maintenance Fees for the respective unit sizes divided by the total number of trust points.  If they later add 10 Pinon Point use weeks, those maintenance fees are added and the maintenance fees adjusted accordingly.  *You will not pay redundant Maintenance Fees if you join the points program.  Your use week maintenance fees will still be as they were, and yes you will pay Maintenance Fees on any Trust Points you may have bought, but you will not pay additional fees on the weeks you deposit.*
> 
> 5  Marriott, and now Hyatt realized that their portfolios had stagnated and they need cashflow and upside potential to justify building of new Resorts.  They found they were holding an inventory of less desirable weeks at various resorts that they were struggling to sell (i.e. inferior resorts, undesirable seasons, etc.).  They were also burdened by covering maintenance fees for these undesirable weeks, and their underlying initial investment for these units was deteriorating over time.  So they decided to create the points system as a new marketing approach.
> 
> 6  The initial portfolio of the Points Programs were all those undesirable weeks.  They had to find a way to include more desirable weeks in the mix.  So they started exercising ROFR on the most desirable weeks at the most desirable resorts.  They also announced plans to build new resorts.
> 
> 7  They also stimulate availability by enrolling use week owners in the points program on the hope that they will deposit desirable weeks into the program.  At Marriott they allowed week owners to enroll in the points program for a minimal fee (if I recall correctly about $1300) if they did it in the first several months of the program.  As time went on, the cost to "enroll" increased.  After about 12-18 months they would only allow a use week owner to enroll if they paid a lower enrollment fee (+/- $750), along with purchasing a minimum number of trust points directly.  Hyatt evidently decided to jump right into the "you must buy a minimum number of points (currently 780) in order to be allowed to link you use weeks to the points program.
> 
> *What was learned about exchanges at  Marriott*
> 
> 8 There is no way a Use Week Owner can reserve/use a Trust Points unit, nor can a Points owner reserve a use week...  *Unless and Until an owner in each program agrees to the swap*.  This would naturally be handled by these reservation/exchange system, not directly between owners.  To this day many Marriott Timeshare Salesmen don't know this or chose to plead ignorance when asked the particulars of the exchange program.
> 
> 9  So to make these exchanges legal and compatible, there needs to be three... *yes three separate inventories maintained.  *On TUG and within the Marriott system they are called Buckets
> 
> 
> a) The first bucket is use weeks traded for another use week.  *In this bucket use week owners can only trade with use week owners.*
> 
> b) The second bucket is Points Program unit/weeks only.  *These can only be reserved by Points Owners.*
> 
> c) The third bucket is the exchange across programs.  *All points owners have access to this inventory, but only use week owners that have deposited their use week into the points program for that specific year *to have access.
> 
> When they deposit the use week, they basically become temporary points owners and are assigned a number of points appropriate to the value of the week deposited.
> 
> A use week owner however can only deposit and receive program points if there are excess points available (remember legally the trust cannot exceed the number of points equal to the points value of the trusts underlying actual deeded weeks).   *This limits the number of owners that can deposit weeks into the trust program.  This is not unlike converting your week to Hyatt Hotel Points...first come first served.*
> 
> So, where do excess points come from?  If a points owner exchanges into a use week unit, the value of the points used for that transfer become available as "excess points available," also the developer that has unsold inventory can make their points available as excess points.
> 
> 
> *So why enroll in the points program?*
> 
> Over time, with development of additional resorts, ROFRs, non-participating resorts being approved by their respective state real estate departments, and unit foreclosures, the available number of units and points grows.
> 
> Access to this portion of the portfolio will no be available to non-participation use week owners (except through II external exchange which is allowed by Marriott, but not Hyatt).
> 
> For many this is not a concern, for others it will be.
> 
> Our experience exhanging through II into Marriott properties has gotten significantly harder since Marriott started their points program.  It seems to be getting worse, as more Marriott transfers are occurring within their three bucket system.
> 
> Over at Marriott there was initially, a tremendous resistance by the use week owners... not so much anymore.  Everybody has learned to work within the system or systems to which they are enrolled.
> *
> My wife and I have access to both use weeks and point in Marriott, as well as, Hyatt.  *For us the flexibility and reach offered by participating in both suits our purpose.
> 
> ​



Thank you for that information. I think the HPP has given everyone a headache. While I would like the program to die, the purchase by Marriott makes me think it won't. 

Hopefully Marriott will disclose what it intends to do with the Hyatt system in the next few months as they get things together. Because of the move of the transfer department to (I think) Vistana, I doubt that it will be spun off. Maybe Marriott will kill the branding agreement with Hyatt and consolidate the properties with Westin or Sheraton, kill the Hyatt internal trading system, and make it where you have to buy into what ever the new points system will be.  Ah, that headache is back.


----------



## Kal

The $2,500 special offer.  If you decline to buy into the HPP, the closer comes into the room with a "special offer".  If you pay a mere $2,500 you will receive a 7 day stay at a limited selection of HRC resorts.  The stay would be limited to available units which means leftovers.  You will also be able to apply that $2,500 as a down payment on buying into the HPP.  And that stay must be used within 12 months.  What a deal!

There is also a provision in the "fine print" where the guest would have to attend another 90 minute HPP presentation at the time of that stay.  If you don't attend you would be charged "rack rates" for the 7 day stay.

So this "special deal" offered before you walk out the door might not be so special.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

My guess it that when/if they combine the programs we will need some points in one of the programs to participate. Those of us who own resale weeks ( we own 3) will be the most impacted as Marriott has a history with resale owners.  I suspect that if you are a part of a points program it would take less to join then for us. I still would want no part of HPP .


----------



## alameda94501

I return from Carmel, where we went to my second presentation on the HPP.  They stated that they were averaging almost $1million in sales a month, which to my math is 50k HPP a month, and almost 80% were going to "Hybrid" owners - folks who also own in the HRC.  I do think we have a lot of HRC owners at Carmel who bought through the Developer so perhaps they are more likely to Go Hybrid than a Resale owner.  Sounded like a tough sale for new owners without any points, though.

Originally they stated there were two options for HRC owners.  First, Hyatt could purchase the HRC deed back, and then you could use the funds to apply to a HPP purchase.  Second, you could purchase HPP on top of HRC.

When they learned we had purchased on the secondary market, they said option #1 was out of the question.  (Later on, they admitted that one would not have that much savings at all on a buyback because Hyatt doesn't offer much.)

So "Resale HRC" owners are in a specific group (imagining many of you are in the same group) and this is what I found out they have for us (sorry if you have seen this document before, I hadn't so thought it might be interesting):






This shows how much needs to be spent in raw dollars to "bless" our "unauthorized" resale.

From my last visit in June, and the sales figures they quoted me now, I believe we are still at the same cost per point ($20):






On top of this, they were slimmer on specials, but honestly I didn't push them for a good bargain to be mindful of everyone's time (they were looking a little sad): they didn't lead with a free interval week or two, no free HRC week or two, and just the standard FDI of WOH points.  They also had the closing special to freeze the rate.

I completely forgot the June 2018 presentation but old me and new me came to the same conclusion - no way.  I'm writing this here to remind myself... 

To be able to deposit my   2,000 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $13,200 and I would end up with 2,000+  660=2,660 HPP possible ("Executive").
To be able to deposit my   2,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $18,400 and I would end up with 2,950+  920=3,870 HPP possible ("Executive").
To be able to deposit both 4,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $24,000 and I would end up with 4,950+1,200=6,150 HPP possible ("Premier").

(trivia: theoretically, someone wanting to get the Elite tier as efficiently as possible would want to start with 5,400 HRC points and spend $24k... not me...)

The benefits touted of HPP at this time by sales folks are:

*.  Reservation Request Advantage (Request List) -* X-month Reservation Request Advantage for 1 reservation up to 7 nights (Classic/Executive/Premier) / 1 reservation up to 14 nights or 2 reservations up to 7 nights each (Elite), to access reservation in the HPP pool, where X=15/16/17/18 for the Classic/Executive/Premier/Elite.
. *Accomodations Confirmation - *(this one was nice if not pricey) Confirm the specific unit number/floor/view for an additional Y Portfolio points, where Y=100/75/50/25
. *Stay One Day Reservations - *use Portfolio points to book one-night stays up to 72 hours prior to day of arrival at a M discount, where M=0/0/10/30
. *Boost Portfolio Points - *Bank Portfolio points for an additional 2 years, borrow from future years up to 6 mo from arrival day.
. *World of Hyatt Points - *Convert any number of Portfolio points into WOH points at a rate of Z WOH per Portfolio point, where Z =41/43/45/50.

Besides the $20/pt upfront cost that made this a non-impulse buy are more importantly for our family:

1.  No resale value of the HPP.  Yikes.

2.  Annual Fees and $133 HRC->HPP deposit fee.  My 2,000+2,950=4,950 HRC points currently cost me ~$3,200/yr in annual fees or $0.64/pt.  Spending $0.96/pt in annual fees is rough, plus add the (in the Papa Bear option of both units converted) $266/yr to deposit two HRC units into HPP - it ends up costing $1.18/pt, nearly double what I spend now.  It's like they gave up on annual fee management.

Also my reservation fee of $60 under HPP is higher than $41 with HRC.

3.  Too Complex.  I know they talk about simplifying the Legacy CUP/LCUP program but the units our family covet are the five two-bedroom Carmel units, which all are in the HRC pool, as they were sold out years ago from the Developer.  

So now every year we have to choose whether to deposit one or two HRC weeks into the HPP pool and spend the $133/yr per week? It just seems like too many decisions with too many unknowns, and we wouldn't want to spend $24k plus $1,400/yr in annual fees to regret depositing into HPP.  Better just to not see the Portfolio units available on the web site - don't worry, be happy.

4.  World of Hyatt.  The old Developer benefit I gave up in Resale, it used to be 2,950 -> 120,000 or 2,000 -> 82,000 which was 41 WOH per HRC point.  I never cared much for it, but it doesn't seem like a strong enough conversion to make this all worth it.  Perhaps we're biased since we never had WOH benefits.

PS:  The sales person made it sound like if you own (Developer, Resale) HRC in a resort you still get some sort of priority in booking CUP for that resort.  That is news to me... is this true?


----------



## lizap

alameda94501 said:


> I return from Carmel, where we went to my second presentation on the HPP.  They stated that they were averaging almost $1million in sales a month, which to my math is 50k HPP a month, and almost 80% were going to "Hybrid" owners - folks who also own in the HRC.  I do think we have a lot of HRC owners at Carmel who bought through the Developer so perhaps they are more likely to Go Hybrid than a Resale owner.  Sounded like a tough sale for new owners without any points, though.
> 
> Originally they stated there were two options for HRC owners.  First, Hyatt could purchase the HRC deed back, and then you could use the funds to apply to a HPP purchase.  Second, you could purchase HPP on top of HRC.
> 
> When they learned we had purchased on the secondary market, they said option #1 was out of the question.  (Later on, they admitted that one would not have that much savings at all on a buyback because Hyatt doesn't offer much.)
> 
> So "Resale HRC" owners are in a specific group (imagining many of you are in the same group) and this is what I found out they have for us (sorry if you have seen this document before, I hadn't so thought it might be interesting):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shows how much needs to be spent in raw dollars to "bless" our "unauthorized" resale.
> 
> From my last visit in June, and the sales figures they quoted me now, I believe we are still at the same cost per point ($20):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On top of this, they were slimmer on specials, but honestly I didn't push them for a good bargain to be mindful of everyone's time (they were looking a little sad): they didn't lead with a free interval week or two, no free HRC week or two, and just the standard FDI of WOH points.  They also had the closing special to freeze the rate.
> 
> I completely forgot the June 2018 presentation but old me and new me came to the same conclusion - no way.  I'm writing this here to remind myself...
> 
> To be able to deposit my   2,000 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $13,200 and I would end up with 2,000+  660=2,660 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit my   2,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $18,400 and I would end up with 2,950+  920=3,870 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit both 4,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $24,000 and I would end up with 4,950+1,200=6,150 HPP possible ("Premier").
> 
> (trivia: theoretically, someone wanting to get the Elite tier as efficiently as possible would want to start with 5,400 HRC points and spend $24k... not me...)
> 
> The benefits touted of HPP at this time by sales folks are:
> 
> *.  Reservation Request Advantage (Request List) -* X-month Reservation Request Advantage for 1 reservation up to 7 nights (Classic/Executive/Premier) / 1 reservation up to 14 nights or 2 reservations up to 7 nights each (Elite), to access reservation in the HPP pool, where X=15/16/17/18 for the Classic/Executive/Premier/Elite.
> . *Accomodations Confirmation - *(this one was nice if not pricey) Confirm the specific unit number/floor/view for an additional Y Portfolio points, where Y=100/75/50/25
> . *Stay One Day Reservations - *use Portfolio points to book one-night stays up to 72 hours prior to day of arrival at a M discount, where M=0/0/10/30
> . *Boost Portfolio Points - *Bank Portfolio points for an additional 2 years, borrow from future years up to 6 mo from arrival day.
> . *World of Hyatt Points - *Convert any number of Portfolio points into WOH points at a rate of Z WOH per Portfolio point, where Z =41/43/45/50.
> 
> Besides the $20/pt upfront cost that made this a non-impulse buy are more importantly for our family:
> 
> 1.  No resale value of the HPP.  Yikes.
> 
> 2.  Annual Fees and $133 HRC->HPP deposit fee.  My 2,000+2,950=4,950 HRC points currently cost me ~$3,200/yr in annual fees or $0.64/pt.  Spending $0.96/pt in annual fees is rough, plus add the (in the Papa Bear option of both units converted) $266/yr to deposit two HRC units into HPP - it ends up costing $1.18/pt, nearly double what I spend now.  It's like they gave up on annual fee management.
> 
> Also my reservation fee of $60 under HPP is higher than $41 with HRC.
> 
> 3.  Too Complex.  I know they talk about simplifying the Legacy CUP/LCUP program but the units our family covet are the five two-bedroom Carmel units, which all are in the HRC pool, as they were sold out years ago from the Developer.
> 
> So now every year we have to choose whether to deposit one or two HRC weeks into the HPP pool and spend the $133/yr per week? It just seems like too many decisions with too many unknowns, and we wouldn't want to spend $24k plus $1,400/yr in annual fees to regret depositing into HPP.  Better just to not see the Portfolio units available on the web site - don't worry, be happy.
> 
> 4.  World of Hyatt.  The old Developer benefit I gave up in Resale, it used to be 2,950 -> 120,000 or 2,000 -> 82,000 which was 41 WOH per HRC point.  I never cared much for it, but it doesn't seem like a strong enough conversion to make this all worth it.  Perhaps we're biased since we never had WOH benefits.
> 
> PS:  The sales person made it sound like if you own (Developer, Resale) HRC in a resort you still get some sort of priority in booking CUP for that resort.  That is news to me... is this true?




What a mess..


----------



## WalnutBaron

alameda94501 said:


> I return from Carmel, where we went to my second presentation on the HPP.  They stated that they were averaging almost $1million in sales a month, which to my math is 50k HPP a month, and almost 80% were going to "Hybrid" owners - folks who also own in the HRC.  I do think we have a lot of HRC owners at Carmel who bought through the Developer so perhaps they are more likely to Go Hybrid than a Resale owner.  Sounded like a tough sale for new owners without any points, though.
> 
> Originally they stated there were two options for HRC owners.  First, Hyatt could purchase the HRC deed back, and then you could use the funds to apply to a HPP purchase.  Second, you could purchase HPP on top of HRC.
> 
> When they learned we had purchased on the secondary market, they said option #1 was out of the question.  (Later on, they admitted that one would not have that much savings at all on a buyback because Hyatt doesn't offer much.)
> 
> So "Resale HRC" owners are in a specific group (imagining many of you are in the same group) and this is what I found out they have for us (sorry if you have seen this document before, I hadn't so thought it might be interesting):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shows how much needs to be spent in raw dollars to "bless" our "unauthorized" resale.
> 
> From my last visit in June, and the sales figures they quoted me now, I believe we are still at the same cost per point ($20):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On top of this, they were slimmer on specials, but honestly I didn't push them for a good bargain to be mindful of everyone's time (they were looking a little sad): they didn't lead with a free interval week or two, no free HRC week or two, and just the standard FDI of WOH points.  They also had the closing special to freeze the rate.
> 
> I completely forgot the June 2018 presentation but old me and new me came to the same conclusion - no way.  I'm writing this here to remind myself...
> 
> To be able to deposit my   2,000 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $13,200 and I would end up with 2,000+  660=2,660 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit my   2,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $18,400 and I would end up with 2,950+  920=3,870 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit both 4,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $24,000 and I would end up with 4,950+1,200=6,150 HPP possible ("Premier").
> 
> (trivia: theoretically, someone wanting to get the Elite tier as efficiently as possible would want to start with 5,400 HRC points and spend $24k... not me...)
> 
> The benefits touted of HPP at this time by sales folks are:
> 
> *.  Reservation Request Advantage (Request List) -* X-month Reservation Request Advantage for 1 reservation up to 7 nights (Classic/Executive/Premier) / 1 reservation up to 14 nights or 2 reservations up to 7 nights each (Elite), to access reservation in the HPP pool, where X=15/16/17/18 for the Classic/Executive/Premier/Elite.
> . *Accomodations Confirmation - *(this one was nice if not pricey) Confirm the specific unit number/floor/view for an additional Y Portfolio points, where Y=100/75/50/25
> . *Stay One Day Reservations - *use Portfolio points to book one-night stays up to 72 hours prior to day of arrival at a M discount, where M=0/0/10/30
> . *Boost Portfolio Points - *Bank Portfolio points for an additional 2 years, borrow from future years up to 6 mo from arrival day.
> . *World of Hyatt Points - *Convert any number of Portfolio points into WOH points at a rate of Z WOH per Portfolio point, where Z =41/43/45/50.
> 
> Besides the $20/pt upfront cost that made this a non-impulse buy are more importantly for our family:
> 
> 1.  No resale value of the HPP.  Yikes.
> 
> 2.  Annual Fees and $133 HRC->HPP deposit fee.  My 2,000+2,950=4,950 HRC points currently cost me ~$3,200/yr in annual fees or $0.64/pt.  Spending $0.96/pt in annual fees is rough, plus add the (in the Papa Bear option of both units converted) $266/yr to deposit two HRC units into HPP - it ends up costing $1.18/pt, nearly double what I spend now.  It's like they gave up on annual fee management.
> 
> Also my reservation fee of $60 under HPP is higher than $41 with HRC.
> 
> 3.  Too Complex.  I know they talk about simplifying the Legacy CUP/LCUP program but the units our family covet are the five two-bedroom Carmel units, which all are in the HRC pool, as they were sold out years ago from the Developer.
> 
> So now every year we have to choose whether to deposit one or two HRC weeks into the HPP pool and spend the $133/yr per week? It just seems like too many decisions with too many unknowns, and we wouldn't want to spend $24k plus $1,400/yr in annual fees to regret depositing into HPP.  Better just to not see the Portfolio units available on the web site - don't worry, be happy.
> 
> 4.  World of Hyatt.  The old Developer benefit I gave up in Resale, it used to be 2,950 -> 120,000 or 2,000 -> 82,000 which was 41 WOH per HRC point.  I never cared much for it, but it doesn't seem like a strong enough conversion to make this all worth it.  Perhaps we're biased since we never had WOH benefits.
> 
> PS:  The sales person made it sound like if you own (Developer, Resale) HRC in a resort you still get some sort of priority in booking CUP for that resort.  That is news to me... is this true?


Great summary! Thank you for taking the time to break it all down. Yes, what a mess. What a ripoff. What a disaster. HPP represents the epitome of greed and avarice, and is a great reason why the timeshare industry rightly has such a miserable reputation. When a developer can come up with an incredibly complex program that facilitates the sales weasels to blow the top off the B.S. meter, coupled with the wide-eyed and unsuspecting newbies who just want to enjoy their vacation, you have all the ingredients for a stew that stinks like a stockyard. Way to go, ILG. Marriott, shame on you for perpetuating this travesty.


----------



## bdbrecheen

We arrived at Bonita Springs yesterday. While we were checking in another couple was called up to the counter by another front desk clerk. I couldn’t help but over hear the conversation which went as follows. “ We just tried to get into our room and our key isn’t working. We actually made 2 reservations on Hotels.com. The first one was for Fri night and the seconds was for Sat and Sunday. Could that be the problem?” Well, they had my undivided attention at hotels.com. What has happened to Hyatt Residents Club? When we purchased our first property 15 1/2 yrs ago, we were sold on The exclusivity of the “club”. You had to be an owner. Now you can get a reservation on hotels.com. To say I was miffed would be an understatement. I will be at the owner’s meeting on Tuesday and intend to express my displeasure. Of course the company doesn’t care about how I feel about this situation, but I’m anxious to see how many owners know that the company is selling rooms on a discount hotel site.  How many of you knew this was happening?


----------



## dms1709

We own there too, could you ask if they issue day passes??


----------



## scsu_hockey_fan

Well with the new building on the property,  they do this to lure people there and make them go to a presentation to the sell them a timeshare.


bdbrecheen said:


> We arrived at Bonita Springs yesterday. While we were checking in another couple was called up to the counter by another front desk clerk. I couldn’t help but over hear the conversation which went as follows. “ We just tried to get into our room and our key isn’t working. We actually made 2 reservations on Hotels.com. The first one was for Fri night and the seconds was for Sat and Sunday. Could that be the problem?” Well, they had my undivided attention at hotels.com. What has happened to Hyatt Residents Club? When we purchased our first property 15 1/2 yrs ago, we were sold on The exclusivity of the “club”. You had to be an owner. Now you can get a reservation on hotels.com. To say I was miffed would be an understatement. I will be at the owner’s meeting on Tuesday and intend to express my displeasure. Of course the company doesn’t care about how I feel about this situation, but I’m anxious to see how many owners know that the company is selling rooms on a discount hotel site.  How many of you knew this was happening?


----------



## bdbrecheen

dms1709 said:


> We own there too, could you ask if they issue day passes??


I will!


----------



## djlorr2014

Kal said:


> The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.
> 
> Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.
> 
> The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.
> 
> Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.
> 
> Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).
> 
> Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.
> 
> Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.




Kal,
Just went to a sales pitch.  Some of the HPP program sounds pretty good as a HRP owner,  1. having 3 years to use points would be nice. 2.putting left over points into hotel points, any amount any time. 3.  not placing the points into Interval unless we found something and the full amount would not have to be moved only what we would need.
 However the spin on questions has me really wondering how this program will work so we decided against it.  They implied that once everything is completed they can change the rules for the HRP owners that are not in the HPP program as well, what they call a Hybrid owner, is this true? One thing they implied that can change is that they will not need certain properties, of course she implied mine because it was in Key West she said Marriott has too many properties in Florida so they won't need that inventory so they could put a new rule that we would only have the option of using our unit, our week and not be able to trade into other properties as we do now, can this happen? It was truly a scare tactic, I hope.  They also said that once everything is completed they might not allow certain properties to ever go into the HPP program as they will not need once Marriott deal is completed, I don't see this happening but how do we know our legal rights?  Is there somewhere to see this?


----------



## heathpack

djlorr2014 said:


> ...not placing the points into Interval unless we found something and the full amount would not have to be moved only what we would need.



You currently don’t have to move points to Interval unless you find something and you only have to move what you need.  That’s a feature of traditional Hyatt aResidence Club, not something that is new with HPP.


----------



## djlorr2014

alameda94501 said:


> I return from Carmel, where we went to my second presentation on the HPP.  They stated that they were averaging almost $1million in sales a month, which to my math is 50k HPP a month, and almost 80% were going to "Hybrid" owners - folks who also own in the HRC.  I do think we have a lot of HRC owners at Carmel who bought through the Developer so perhaps they are more likely to Go Hybrid than a Resale owner.  Sounded like a tough sale for new owners without any points, though.
> 
> Originally they stated there were two options for HRC owners.  First, Hyatt could purchase the HRC deed back, and then you could use the funds to apply to a HPP purchase.  Second, you could purchase HPP on top of HRC.
> 
> When they learned we had purchased on the secondary market, they said option #1 was out of the question.  (Later on, they admitted that one would not have that much savings at all on a buyback because Hyatt doesn't offer much.)
> 
> So "Resale HRC" owners are in a specific group (imagining many of you are in the same group) and this is what I found out they have for us (sorry if you have seen this document before, I hadn't so thought it might be interesting):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shows how much needs to be spent in raw dollars to "bless" our "unauthorized" resale.
> 
> From my last visit in June, and the sales figures they quoted me now, I believe we are still at the same cost per point ($20):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On top of this, they were slimmer on specials, but honestly I didn't push them for a good bargain to be mindful of everyone's time (they were looking a little sad): they didn't lead with a free interval week or two, no free HRC week or two, and just the standard FDI of WOH points.  They also had the closing special to freeze the rate.
> 
> I completely forgot the June 2018 presentation but old me and new me came to the same conclusion - no way.  I'm writing this here to remind myself...
> 
> To be able to deposit my   2,000 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $13,200 and I would end up with 2,000+  660=2,660 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit my   2,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $18,400 and I would end up with 2,950+  920=3,870 HPP possible ("Executive").
> To be able to deposit both 4,950 unit into HPP on an annual basis would cost $24,000 and I would end up with 4,950+1,200=6,150 HPP possible ("Premier").
> 
> (trivia: theoretically, someone wanting to get the Elite tier as efficiently as possible would want to start with 5,400 HRC points and spend $24k... not me...)
> 
> The benefits touted of HPP at this time by sales folks are:
> 
> *.  Reservation Request Advantage (Request List) -* X-month Reservation Request Advantage for 1 reservation up to 7 nights (Classic/Executive/Premier) / 1 reservation up to 14 nights or 2 reservations up to 7 nights each (Elite), to access reservation in the HPP pool, where X=15/16/17/18 for the Classic/Executive/Premier/Elite.
> . *Accomodations Confirmation - *(this one was nice if not pricey) Confirm the specific unit number/floor/view for an additional Y Portfolio points, where Y=100/75/50/25
> . *Stay One Day Reservations - *use Portfolio points to book one-night stays up to 72 hours prior to day of arrival at a M discount, where M=0/0/10/30
> . *Boost Portfolio Points - *Bank Portfolio points for an additional 2 years, borrow from future years up to 6 mo from arrival day.
> . *World of Hyatt Points - *Convert any number of Portfolio points into WOH points at a rate of Z WOH per Portfolio point, where Z =41/43/45/50.
> 
> Besides the $20/pt upfront cost that made this a non-impulse buy are more importantly for our family:
> 
> 1.  No resale value of the HPP.  Yikes.
> 
> 2.  Annual Fees and $133 HRC->HPP deposit fee.  My 2,000+2,950=4,950 HRC points currently cost me ~$3,200/yr in annual fees or $0.64/pt.  Spending $0.96/pt in annual fees is rough, plus add the (in the Papa Bear option of both units converted) $266/yr to deposit two HRC units into HPP - it ends up costing $1.18/pt, nearly double what I spend now.  It's like they gave up on annual fee management.
> 
> Also my reservation fee of $60 under HPP is higher than $41 with HRC.
> 
> 3.  Too Complex.  I know they talk about simplifying the Legacy CUP/LCUP program but the units our family covet are the five two-bedroom Carmel units, which all are in the HRC pool, as they were sold out years ago from the Developer.
> 
> So now every year we have to choose whether to deposit one or two HRC weeks into the HPP pool and spend the $133/yr per week? It just seems like too many decisions with too many unknowns, and we wouldn't want to spend $24k plus $1,400/yr in annual fees to regret depositing into HPP.  Better just to not see the Portfolio units available on the web site - don't worry, be happy.
> 
> 4.  World of Hyatt.  The old Developer benefit I gave up in Resale, it used to be 2,950 -> 120,000 or 2,000 -> 82,000 which was 41 WOH per HRC point.  I never cared much for it, but it doesn't seem like a strong enough conversion to make this all worth it.  Perhaps we're biased since we never had WOH benefits.
> 
> PS:  The sales person made it sound like if you own (Developer, Resale) HRC in a resort you still get some sort of priority in booking CUP for that resort.  That is news to me... is this true?



Thank you for all the information.  Am I reading this right that if I give them $12,000 I can move my 2200 points to HPP and just be a HPP owner?
Also, they can take what I paid for my unit even though resale and apply to the purchase of HPP points?


----------



## djlorr2014

heathpack said:


> You currently don’t have to move points to Interval unless you find something and you only have to move what you need.  That’s a feature of traditional Hyatt aResidence Club, not something that is new with HPP.


Thank you, I never knew that as we were told that we had to move our full week into Interval, I will have to look at that.


----------



## heathpack

djlorr2014 said:


> Thank you, I never knew that as we were told that we had to move our full week into Interval, I will have to look at that.



I currently have 70 points in EEE in Interval.  Just the leftovers from bookings I made with my 1880 pt Gold week.  

Since the EEE points are good in Interval for 3 years, just move any leftover points into II each year.  They all get pooled together and you can mix points from different years to book something.  

Since I have these 70 points in II now, I’ll make sure I accumulate enough over the next few years to at least book a studio somewhere.  A Westin Kaanapali studio is a nice use for your leftover points!


----------



## AJCts411

"...they will not need certain properties, of course she implied mine because it was in Key West she said Marriott has too many properties in Florida so they won't need that inventory so they could put a new rule that we would only have the option of using our unit, our week..." LOL, should of asked, tell me why there is talk of adding another TS resort in Key West?  And let her explain why would Marriott dump a Key West Florida location that has a over 90% occupancy/use rate?  It is true, is their lips are moving...lol.


----------



## Texx

Kal said:


> The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.
> 
> Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.
> 
> The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.
> 
> Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.
> 
> Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).
> 
> Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.
> 
> Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.


 
I went to an owners update today in San Antonio.   We own two weeks both purchased on the resale market many years back.  One a diamond and another a low point every other year.  

 The presentation was well done and the sales rep was very convincing.  We gave it serious thought but ultimately decided not buy into the hpp program at this time.  I share a few observations.  Determining fact from fiction is often difficult in these types of presentations, and clarification and input by others would be helpful.  

1.   I was told that hpp points are now up to 21.10 a point.  I was given options to first buy 1100, 1000, and then 660 points at 20 a point.  When I told them I had purchased resale weeks years ago, they checked their computer and offered me a 1000 package at 16.81 a point, which honestly seemed like a good deal. I'm curious if others have been offered below retail rates?  And if so at what terms?

2.  They said that I had the option to move my hrc weeks into portfolio at the begining of every year.  I would pay the hrc week maintenance fee which in my case is very low at 1250 per week and a 137 transfer fee, which would still be significantly lower than paying the hpp maintenance fee on the same amount of points.  If this is the case why would anyone buy HPP outright ?

3.  They explained various features of the hpp programs.  Points good for three years, longer reservation periods, options to book one day at time, no booking or split week fees for portfolio reservations, and access to portfolio weeks.  Sounded very promising. For the right price I think I would do it.  

4.   I asked about signing away my 1300 point every other week to them for free as part of the deal.  They didn't want it..not even for free.  What does one do with these types of weeks? (I purchased it before I found kal's very helpful website).


----------



## SteelerGal

now this is interesting.


----------



## Kal

SteelerGal said:


> now this is interesting.





Texx said:


> 2.  They said that I had the option to move my hrc weeks into portfolio at the begining of every year.  I would pay the hrc week maintenance fee which in my case is very low at 1250 per week and a 137 transfer fee, which would still be significantly lower than paying the hpp maintenance fee on the same amount of points.  If this is the case why would anyone buy HPP outright ?...


For $42,200 a person could pick up 2,000 points.  With that you don't even have a timeshare deed, but rather a handful of points.  The only potential future "resale" buyer of those points is the HPP and there is absolutely no reason why they would buy them.  I can't imagine being stuck with those MFs for life.


----------



## SteelerGal

Kal said:


> For $42,200 a person could pick up 2,000 points.  With that you don't even have a timeshare deed, but rather a handful of points.  The only potential future "resale" buyer of those points is the HPP and there is absolutely no reason why they would buy them.  I can't imagine being stuck with those MFs for life.


Interesting because of the speculation thread regarding how will MVC incorporate Vistana and Hyatt.  Since I am an owner of both Westin and Hyatt, I wondered how Marriott would get VSN and HRC owners to convert to points.  Well, the infrastructure is already established at HRC.  However HRC owners still are not biting.  The hybrid program is not working?  So MVC needs to increase program so how will they?
I know MVC is still working on the licensing agreement however once it is completed, will they offer a “Club membership “ w/out purchases of points similarly to what occurred  for the kick off of DC.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

bdbrecheen said:


> We arrived at Bonita Springs yesterday. While we were checking in another couple was called up to the counter by another front desk clerk. I couldn’t help but over hear the conversation which went as follows. “ We just tried to get into our room and our key isn’t working. We actually made 2 reservations on Hotels.com. The first one was for Fri night and the seconds was for Sat and Sunday. Could that be the problem?” Well, they had my undivided attention at hotels.com. What has happened to Hyatt Residents Club? When we purchased our first property 15 1/2 yrs ago, we were sold on The exclusivity of the “club”. You had to be an owner. Now you can get a reservation on hotels.com. To say I was miffed would be an understatement. I will be at the owner’s meeting on Tuesday and intend to express my displeasure. Of course the company doesn’t care about how I feel about this situation, but I’m anxious to see how many owners know that the company is selling rooms on a discount hotel site.  How many of you knew this was happening?



if I over hear those conversations, when I go to my next owners meeting and they try and sell me something I will loudly state why buy when you can purchase on hotels.com... You get enough people scaring away there potential customers in these meetings and thy might rethink their marketing. Ugh this makes me mad


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

SteelerGal said:


> Interesting because of the speculation thread regarding how will MVC incorporate Vistana and Hyatt.  Since I am an owner of both Westin and Hyatt, I wondered how Marriott would get VSN and HRC owners to convert to points.  Well, the infrastructure is already established at HRC.  However HRC owners still are not biting.  The hybrid program is not working?  So MVC needs to increase program so how will they?
> I know MVC is still working on the licensing agreement however once it is completed, will they offer a “Club membership “ w/out purchases of points similarly to what occurred  for the kick off of DC.


Cant see them doing this. We were told by Westin that we could still exchange the way we are with our Hyatt and Vistana but if we want to use this to be determined club membership we would have to purchase with Marriott.  They did not know details. The issue is Marriott owners are many and will supposedly be able to exchange at the same time so our availability to trade would decline.


----------



## SteelerGal

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Cant see them doing this. We were told by Westin that we could still exchange the way we are with our Hyatt and Vistana but if we want to use this to be determined club membership we would have to purchase with Marriott.  They did not know details. The issue is Marriott owners are many and will supposedly be able to exchange at the same time so our availability to trade would decline.


Many believe that their would be an overlay but even MVC veterans doubt that it will be for free.  DC had its initial buyin but now MVC is selling a hybrid package(deed/points).  However resale purchases pre 2010 date, still can join DC for a nominal fee.  VSN requires retro which but must bring in at least tens of thousands of dollars.   And their options are still falling flat so will MVC offer a nominal fee to register into VSN instead of having to purchase points w/ a larger buy in.


----------



## Sapper

Texx said:


> I went to an owners update today in San Antonio.   We own two weeks both purchased on the resale market many years back.  One a diamond and another a low point every other year.
> 
> The presentation was well done and the sales rep was very convincing.  We gave it serious thought but ultimately decided not buy into the hpp program at this time.  I share a few observations.  Determining fact from fiction is often difficult in these types of presentations, and clarification and input by others would be helpful.
> 
> 1.   I was told that hpp points are now up to 21.10 a point.  I was given options to first buy 1100, 1000, and then 660 points at 20 a point.  When I told them I had purchased resale weeks years ago, they checked their computer and offered me a 1000 package at 16.81 a point, which honestly seemed like a good deal. I'm curious if others have been offered below retail rates?  And if so at what terms?
> 
> 2.  They said that I had the option to move my hrc weeks into portfolio at the begining of every year.  I would pay the hrc week maintenance fee which in my case is very low at 1250 per week and a 137 transfer fee, which would still be significantly lower than paying the hpp maintenance fee on the same amount of points.  If this is the case why would anyone buy HPP outright ?
> 
> 3.  They explained various features of the hpp programs.  Points good for three years, longer reservation periods, options to book one day at time, no booking or split week fees for portfolio reservations, and access to portfolio weeks.  Sounded very promising. For the right price I think I would do it.
> 
> 4.   I asked about signing away my 1300 point every other week to them for free as part of the deal.  They didn't want it..not even for free.  What does one do with these types of weeks? (I purchased it before I found kal's very helpful website).



1. Thank you for letting us know about this. Others had mentioned that the sales weasels are now down to pushing a minimum 660 points, though I don’t recall recent pricing.  Terms were just making resale units “whole”.  

2. It seems some folks have bought in. Unfortunately, they then learn the HPP is not living up to what they were told/sold, want out and can’t sell. I don’t know anyone who has either successfully purchased or sold resale HPP points yet. Otherwise, HPP seems to be a failure. 

3. No doubt, there are some interesting aspects to HPP. Unfortunately, the ridiculous costs associated with it and a number of other hidden negatives (ie, availability: something like six unit weeks at Sunset, so they sell the program as if they have availability there.  Technically true, in reality untrue.) make it unattractive. 

4. You almost have to give the EOY units away for free unless they are like diamond season at Pinion Pointe.


----------



## SteelerGal

@Sapper  since HPP is a bust, if MVC does complete a licensing contract w/ Hyatt, do you envisions any changes to the program to increase buy in?


----------



## Sapper

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Cant see them doing this. We were told by Westin that we could still exchange the way we are with our Hyatt and Vistana but if we want to use this to be determined club membership we would have to purchase with Marriott.  They did not know details. The issue is Marriott owners are many and will supposedly be able to exchange at the same time so our availability to trade would decline.





SteelerGal said:


> Many believe that their would be an overlay but even MVC veterans doubt that it will be for free.  DC had its initial buyin but now MVC is selling a hybrid package(deed/points).  However resale purchases pre 2010 date, still can join DC for a nominal fee.  VSN requires retro which but must bring in at least tens of thousands of dollars.   And their options are still falling flat so will MVC offer a nominal fee to register into VSN instead of having to purchase points w/ a larger buy in.



At one point (back when Marriott first bought ILG) I had thought that Marriott would leave each system alone, create an overlay using II, and charge to use it. My suggestion was promptly shot down on the Marriott forum because they already have the DC thing, everyone else can just trade through that system, and why should DC owners have to pay again. Folks on the Marriott forum are a tough crowd sometimes. 

I still think Marriott may do the overlay. It solves a bunch of problems related to points conversion equality (see discussions in both the Vistana and Marriott forums). It also allows MVC to make money off everyone, even the folks who paid to join DC as the overlay would be separate from DC. It does not irritate or alienate a large group of owners. Finally, it allows MVC to keep different brands to target different market segments going forward.


----------



## Kal

Sugarcubesea said:


> if I over hear those conversations, when I go to my next owners meeting and they try and sell me something I will loudly state why buy when you can purchase on hotels.com... You get enough people scaring away there potential customers in these meetings and thy might rethink their marketing. Ugh this makes me mad


Those HPP sales pitch sessions are conducted in individual rooms with a closed door.  They definitely don't want any conversations to be overheard by other potential customers.

It would definitely be fun to have those discussions held at a desk in an open room.  Any loud conversations could definitely be broadcast to others.  The small room approach is better suited to applying a hot lamp to the would-be victim.


----------



## Sapper

SteelerGal said:


> @Sapper  since HPP is a bust, if MVC does complete a licensing contract w/ Hyatt, do you envisions any changes to the program to increase buy in?



I think it depends which way management wants to go with things. If they want to create one pool of points, say in the DC program as the Marriott folks are pushing for, then having a substantial quantity of unsold point inventory they can dump into the pool would instantly give existing members access to Hyatt properties. Any current HPP owners who sell will have their sales taken by ROFR and dumped into this inventory, and they will stop selling HPP and only sell the DC (or what ever single point pool) program. 

If they do the overlay as I described above, then management has to address the shortcomings in order to make sales. The biggest shortcoming is the initial buy in cost.


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## Kal

Texx said:


> 1.   I was told that hpp points are now up to 21.10 a point.  I was given options to first buy 1100, 1000, and then 660 points at 20 a point...


Interesting that the price point is $21.10.  Then of course they drop it to $20.  It would appear that they are trying to show demand for this lovely product.  It would be very difficult for the HPP if they lowered the price point to anything less than the original $20.  Existing buyers would not only be distressed that the HPP does not work but then they learn that it was selling at a discount to new buyers.

I may have to order up another bag of peanuts to watch this circus.


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## Sapper

Kal said:


> Interesting that the price point is $21.10.  Then of course they drop it to $20.  It would appear that they are trying to show demand for this lovely product.  It would be very difficult for the HPP if they lowered the price point to anything less than the original $20.  Existing buyers would not only be distressed that the HPP does not work but then they learn that it was selling at a discount to new buyers.
> 
> I may have to order up another bag of peanuts to watch this circus.



Keep reading, the poster stated that they went down to $16.81 for a 1000 point package.


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## SteelerGal

Sapper said:


> I think it depends which way management wants to go with things. If they want to create one pool of points, say in the DC program as the Marriott folks are pushing for, then having a substantial quantity of unsold point inventory they can dump into the pool would instantly give existing members access to Hyatt properties. Any current HPP owners who sell will have their sales taken by ROFR and dumped into this inventory, and they will stop selling HPP and only sell the DC (or what ever single point pool) program.
> 
> If they do the overlay as I described above, then management has to address the shortcomings in order to make sales. The biggest shortcoming is the initial buy in cost.


Agree w/ the initial buyin.  Why would I buy the hybrid when the current System works fine for me.  However I know Wall Street isn’t going to look kindly to stagnate or lack of revenue growth.


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## dsmrp

Texx said:


> I went to an owners update today in San Antonio.   We own two weeks both purchased on the resale market many years back.  One a diamond and another a low point every other year.
> 
> The presentation was well done and the sales rep was very convincing.  We gave it serious thought but ultimately decided not buy into the hpp program at this time.  I share a few observations.  Determining fact from fiction is often difficult in these types of presentations, and clarification and input by others would be helpful.
> 
> 1.   I was told that hpp points are now up to 21.10 a point.  I was given options to first buy 1100, 1000, and then 660 points at 20 a point.  When I told them I had purchased resale weeks years ago, they checked their computer and offered me a 1000 package at 16.81 a point, which honestly seemed like a good deal. I'm curious if others have been offered below retail rates?  And if so at what terms?
> 
> 2.  They said that I had the option to move my hrc weeks into portfolio at the begining of every year.  I would pay the hrc week maintenance fee which in my case is very low at 1250 per week and a 137 transfer fee, which would still be significantly lower than paying the hpp maintenance fee on the same amount of points.  If this is the case why would anyone buy HPP outright ?
> 
> 3.  They explained various features of the hpp programs.  Points good for three years, longer reservation periods, options to book one day at time, no booking or split week fees for portfolio reservations, and access to portfolio weeks.  Sounded very promising. For the right price I think I would do it.
> 
> 4.   I asked about signing away my 1300 point every other week to them for free as part of the deal.  They didn't want it..not even for free.  What does one do with these types of weeks? (I purchased it before I found kal's very helpful website).



We went to an owner's update on our first ever stay at a Hyatt resort (exchange into Highlands Inn).  The hybrid offer was the same, approx $16K for 1000 portfolio points.
Was told to have my 2000 pt Pinon unit participate in HPP we would need to buy 1/2 more of our 2000 pts as HPP points.  I forget what the maintenance fee was per HPP point, but probably about 50% more than my Pinon MF/point cost.  Also the Hawaii-Maui resort is not included in the portfolio group of resorts.

There's a trust behind the portfolio program; and sales said HRC had seeded it with a good number of units, so not depending upon owner participation for units.  I don't know how accurate that is, or whether these are low season units.  Anyway it sounded fairly similar to DC program.  I can see where HPP would be beneficial to HRC owners who own multiple use weeks at different times of year.  But entry price is pretty high, and with uncertainty of MVC changing existing HRC and HPP, there's no reason to buy in IMO.


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## Sapper

dsmrp said:


> We went to an owner's update on our first ever stay at a Hyatt resort (exchange into Highlands Inn).  The hybrid offer was the same, approx $16K for 1000 portfolio points.
> Was told to have my 2000 pt Pinon unit participate in HPP we'd would need to buy 1/2 more of our 2000 pts as HPP points.  I forget what the maintenance fee was per HPP point, but probably about 50% more than my Pinon MF/point cost.  Also the Hawaii-Maui resort is not included in the portfolio group of resorts.
> 
> There's a trust behind the portfolio program; and sales said HRC had seeded it with a good number of units, so not depending upon owner participation for units.  I don't know how accurate that is, or whether these are low season units.  Anyway it sounded fairly similar to DC program.  I can see where HPP would be beneficial to HRC owners who own multiple use weeks at different times of year.  But entry price is pretty high, and with uncertainty of MVC changing existing HRC and HPP, there's no reason to buy in IMO.



Yes, there is an underlying trust. However, that trust was built using the unit weeks which they were unable to sell when unit weeks were being sold.  So, lots of silver week Windward Point in Key West. Not much Sunset. Sales will tell you there is availability at Sunset because technically, there is. However, the reality of you getting one of the six units is slim. We have seen some locations (like Hawaii) which are not part of HPP show up in the point program, so owners are depositing their weeks. 

Agree though, entry cost is high, maintenance fees are high per point, and as you point out the uncertainty with MVC all seem to lead to limited participation.


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## Sugarcubesea

Kal said:


> Those HPP sales pitch sessions are conducted in individual rooms with a closed door.  They definitely don't want any conversations to be overheard by other potential customers.
> 
> It would definitely be fun to have those discussions held at a desk in an open room.  Any loud conversations could definitely be broadcast to others.  The small room approach is better suited to applying a hot lamp to the would-be victim.



When I did the SDO presentation it was in a big room with lots of people they were very anxious to get me out of there quickly when I started to pull up eBay auctions... and was proudly wearing my TUG shirt....LOL


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## Kal

Sapper said:


> Keep reading, the poster stated that they went down to $16.81 for a 1000 point package.


Supply and demand curve.  Big supply, no demand gets you a 15% discount from roll-out pricing.


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## bdh

Sapper said:


> Yes, there is an underlying trust. However, that trust was built using the unit weeks which they were unable to sell when unit weeks were being sold.  So, lots of silver week Windward Point in Key West. Not much Sunset. Sales will tell you there is availability at Sunset because technically, there is. However, the reality of you getting one of the six units is slim. We have seen some locations (like Hawaii) which are not part of HPP show up in the point program, so owners are depositing their weeks.




Based on info from various reliable sources, the Hyatt Trust has 33 weeks at Sunset Harbor, 51 weeks at Beach House and over 2,000 weeks at Windward.  So possible to get a Sunset HPP reservation, but not probable.  There are some HRC Sunset owners that have bought into HPP and annually deposit their deeded Sunset Week into HPP - while that does increase the number of potential HPP reservations at Sunset, the knowledge base of the HPP owner typically isn't savvy enough on how to use the Hyatt reservation system to obtain a Sunset reservation.


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## IslandTime

Good.  As an owner at Sunset I hope it stays like this. With my one HRC week I was able to get three weeks in a studio this year for the exact dates I requested via wait list. I'm currently wait listed for a week in Maui in a one bedroom next year. If it doesn't come through before my HRPP ends in January, we'll stay in a hotel in Hawaii and we'll happily stay at Sunset next year.


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> Based on info from various reliable sources, the Hyatt Trust has 33 weeks at Sunset Harbor, 51 weeks at Beach House and over 2,000 weeks at Windward.  So possible to get a Sunset HPP reservation, but not probable.  There are some HRC Sunset owners that have bought into HPP and annually deposit their deeded Sunset Week into HPP - while that does increase the number of potential HPP reservations at Sunset, the knowledge base of the HPP owner typically isn't savvy enough on how to use the Hyatt reservation system to obtain a Sunset reservation.



Thank you for the more accurate numbers bdh!


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## Kal

bdh said:


> Based on info from various reliable sources, the Hyatt Trust has 33 weeks at Sunset Harbor, 51 weeks at Beach House and over 2,000 weeks at Windward.  So possible to get a Sunset HPP reservation, but not probable.  There are some HRC Sunset owners that have bought into HPP and annually deposit their deeded Sunset Week into HPP - while that does increase the number of potential HPP reservations at Sunset, the knowledge base of the HPP owner typically isn't savvy enough on how to use the Hyatt reservation system to obtain a Sunset reservation.


That's 33 weeks out of 2100 total (or <2%) and those are in less than desirable time periods.


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## Texx

Kal said:


> Supply and demand curve.  Big supply, no demand gets you a 15% discount from roll-out pricing.




Looks like you can get an even bigger discount on the secondary market at the moment.


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## bradj

Kal said:


> The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin.  Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear.  Need to carefully listen to every word.  They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio.  They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point.  The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point.  Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.
> 
> Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want.  Wrong.  Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation.  Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort.  I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total).  They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available.  The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory.  IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability.  We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists.  They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.
> 
> The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members.  See the thread on the new Key West resort.
> 
> Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.
> 
> Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year.  You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own.  Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).
> 
> Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.
> 
> Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the *HRC Wait List*.


I'm already having difficulty with my Request/Wait list. I've been booking 18 moths out for years with success until now. I was overlooked on my week 44 request for 2019 and now have not filled my week 3 request for 2020. This never used to happen. My requests have always been at the front of the line and filled until now. For some unexplainable reason, my place in line gets moved back so I'm not in front any more. No one will give me a reasonable explanation. In the past Hyatt would tell you where you were in line on a request list and even how many HRPPs had not been reserved. Now everything is secret! Change of Hyatt ownership, first to II and then to Marriott has mucked up the program,too. No customer service #. No live person will answer questions. This is not working like the Hyatt product that I originally purchased. I also wonder if the Portfolio program is compromising the Request list order. No one at Hyatt/Marriott will give me any answers. What used to be a great product, ain't no more. If the points/request list doesn't work anymore, after 20 years I'm probably gonna bail and try to salvage some loss. This is no longer the product I bought.


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## Kal

Texx said:


> ...1.   I was told that hpp points are now up to 21.10 a point.  I was given options to first buy 1100, 1000, and then 660 points at 20 a point.  When I told them I had purchased resale weeks years ago, they checked their computer and offered me a 1000 package at 16.81 a point, which honestly seemed like a good deal. I'm curious if others have been offered below retail rates?  And if so at what terms?....


A HRC friend who bought into the HPP for $20 per point (660 points) attended another owner's update today.  Hyatt offered them a deal for $15.90 per point.

That price point is so revealing the HPP program is outright failing.  How would you feel if you bought into the HPP at $20 and now Hyatt is selling the same product at a 20% discount!  It almost feels like an "estate (aka garage) sale".  I'd like to offer $9.99 a point and see their reaction.  Of course my idea is tongue-in-cheek as I would NEVER even consider paying anything for the HPP.


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## alameda94501

I have heard from a broker that $5/pt on the secondary market isn't working out. Of course, those are third class citizens anyway in the agreements, so I would pity the person that tried to actually use those points.


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## Kal

The $5/pt starts to tell about the real world value of those points.


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## dms1709

Why should there be a issue with using the points, I thought points were points?  I am putting a studio into points and was hoping to exchange into another Hyatt.


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## Kal

dms1709 said:


> Why should there be a issue with using the points, I thought points were points?  I am putting a studio into points and was hoping to exchange into another Hyatt.


My take is someone is trying to sell HPP points on the secondary market for $5/point.  That would be an interesting story to follow.  I can't imagine how that would have a successful outcome.

It's a different situation if an HRC owner is using their HRC points to stay in a different location.


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## alameda94501

dms1709 said:


> Why should there be a issue with using the points, I thought points were points?  I am putting a studio into points and was hoping to exchange into another Hyatt.



In the HPP program, my understanding is points are not equal, and based on the status of the owner; elite, premier, executive, classic... And Unauthorized, which would be the $5 resale points.

As you might imagine Unauthorized points are the lowest of the low and will be able to reserve after everyone else has their pick. But the annual fees will be equal to those better points!


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## bradj

Are HPP points preferenced over HRC points? My request list requests in the HRC  program are not filling like they used to, even with 18 month out bookings. My gut tells me that Marriott doesn't like the Hyatt's HRC points program.


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## alameda94501

bradj said:


> Are HPP points preferenced over HRC points? My request list requests in the HRC  program are not filling like they used to, even with 18 month out bookings. My gut tells me that Marriott doesn't like the Hyatt's HRC points program.



My understanding is that the HPP weeks (and corresponding points) are in a different pool from HRC weeks and corresponding pool.

At the same time, if enough old HRC members "hybridize" (this is the primary sales pitch I've heard from the Hyatt Sales Team as an HRC owner), they purchase the annual option to "swap".  That is, once a year they may take their owned week out of the HRC week pool for a year, put it into the HPP weeks pool and get HPP points for that.  And pay $133 for the privilege.  From what they told me this happens around January 1.

Then the remaining HRC members will have a tiny bit less requests filled.


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## Kal

Actually, an HRC member first has to join the HPP program.  To do so a minimum of 660 points must be purchased.  At $20/point, that equates to about $13,000.  Once you belong to HPP you then have options to manage your HRC points.  One option is to move an HRC week(s) to the HPP on an annual basis during Jan 1 to Feb 28.  There is also an HPP maintenance fee for those 660 points.


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## PerryKing

After reading all these prior post on this thread:   May I offer some of  my current thoughts on the Portfolio Program, especially for current HRC members.

The main details that are a deal breaker for me at this time  are  in the Hyatt Portfolio Points club system  FEE SCHEDULE.


After you join up by buying into the HPP system for a minimum purchase of 660 points, plus "closing cost of around $300 and paying the maintenance  fee in advance (With the cost going up every quarter).

  You can then choose to move your HRC points into the HPP club each year to gain HPP privilege's   such as extending the life of your HRC points, to get reservation priorities, or to get a bonus when you then convert those points to World of Hyatt Points.

However after you buy in, it seems that  per the fee schedule that  one   would  have to pay  $133.00 each year to move those points into the HPP system

One  of the touted benefits of the HPP is that you can then convert your HRC points to Hyatt hotel points, (with no limit  on that  " privilege" such as the only 10% of HRC owners per club are allowed each year MAX that can convert to  World of Hyatt Hotel points).

  And also  depending on your "STATUS " in the HPP system the member would get a small increase  in the number of Hotel points  over what the regular HRC member would get,  (about 10% more at the Elite level or so).

  So  the way I interpret  the fee schedule it would cost me  $127 per bucket of points each year to just move my HRC points into the HPP system.   (I wonder if your "Status" changes each year depending on how many of your Hyatt Residence Club points that you decide to transfer into the HPP system each year. A question I would have asked , if they had followed up with me the day after the "Owners Update" presentation.)  Your status in the HPP program has some minor effects on the cost of the fees charged to make reservations and on the Word of Hyatt conversion factor when converting your points to the WOH program)

I currently own at three HRC's.   So it looks like  to convert my HRC points through the HPP system each year, as a guaranteed no limits privilege of being a HPP member, would cost me  the deposit fee of $133 to move the points into the HPP club , and another $127 to then  convert those points to World of Hyatt points.   So  in my case if I did all three clubs points that I own would cost me another :   ($133 + $127)  X 3 = $780  each year, besides  the maintenance fee on the few Portfolio Points one will have to buy.

There are a lot of other fees involved in using your "Privilege's" of the HPP club.

I.e. I did get a good presentation of the system at the Hyatt Pinion Pointe sales office in July 2019,  ( My first was  Key West in March of 2019 and was not as informative)   Then that evening back in my room at the Pinion Pointe  I sort of almost considered signing up, but  when I closely read and studied the Hyatt Portfolio Club fee schedule  and saw that every privilege of the few that might have been  important to me, and that I  though I might gain by buying into  the Portfolio Points system came a recurring cost each time you used one of your "Privilege's".   In the end the cost of buying in and the fees of using the system just seemed not worth it to me.  ( and per the prior postings here, at that time I did not know, if its true, that one can only sell  their HPP membership back to Hyatt per the rules, that would also have been a deal breaker for me right then.  I asked if the HPP membership was transferable, and they replied:  Yes.  I guess I did not get the whole story then. )

*My ongoing  thought about the Hyatt Portfolio Program  is: That if Hyatt produced this system (as the say ) "to improve  current deficiencies of availability problems in the club,  to meet changing needs of members and to provide more flexibility for usage of the clubs by members, etc.   "   then they  should just give all members these privilege's at no new buy in cost. They can charge their fees for usage I guess. I will give them that.*

*When  I make this remark to the sales managers and sales people, I just get blank stare !*


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## ocdb8r

PerryKing said:


> I currently own at three HRC's.   So it looks like  to convert my HRC points through the HPP system each year, as a guaranteed no limits privilege of being a HPP member, would cost me  the deposit fee of $133 to move the points into the HPP club , and another $127 to then  convert those points to World of Hyatt points.   So  in my case if I did all three clubs points that I own would cost me another :   ($133 + $127)  X 3 = $780  each year, besides  the maintenance fee on the few Portfolio Points one will have to buy.



I'm no fan of the HPP, but 1) I don't think the fees you've quoted are "per week" - perhaps the HRC-->HPP is per week (but I don't think so...I think it covers any of the weeks you own), but certainly once in the HPP you'd only pay a single fee to convert any number of points to WoH points; 2) I don't think at any cost converting to WoH points makes sense....you're always getting better value using your points in the timeshare system.

The problem with the HPP (mainly) is that available inventory is so low, few good exchanges are possible.  Hyatt _should _have done what Marriott did when they launched their DC program and offered existing owners a reasonable fee to "enroll" their week in the HPP without buying points.  That would have created a big boost in participation, increased exchanges and therefore made HPP's actually marketable/valuable in the future.  Existing owners would be enticed to buy points because of the extra flexibility offered.


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## Kal

ocdb8r said:


> ... Hyatt _should _have done what Marriott did when they launched their DC program and offered existing owners a reasonable fee to "enroll" their week in the HPP without buying points...


Are you suggesting the HPP "enrollment fee" of $13,000 (purchase 660 points) is not appropriate?  Some my consider the $13K as "walk around money".  FYI, I'm not one of those few.


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## SteelerGal

Kal said:


> Are you suggesting the HPP "enrollment fee" of $13,000 (purchase 660 points) is not appropriate?  Some my consider the $13K as "walk around money".  FYI, I'm not one of those few.


MVC initial enrollment fee was less than $1000 if your resale was purchased prior to 2010.  Now its closer to $2000.  This is just to enroll.  No need to purchase a hybrid contract.


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## alameda94501

I have two HRPP weeks and they confirmed to me it was $133 for each week each year. That's fee#1 that is high to me.  The $20/pt purchase price is fee#2 that is high to me. The annual fees in HPP of $0.96/pt/yr for those points is fee#3 that is high to me.

In all, too many fees for too little gain.


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## PerryKing

ocdb8r said:


> I'm no fan of the HPP, but 1) I don't think the fees you've quoted are "per week" - perhaps the HRC-->HPP is per week (but I don't think so...I think it covers any of the weeks you own), but certainly once in the HPP you'd only pay a single fee to convert any number of points to WoH points; 2) I don't think at any cost converting to WoH points makes sense....you're always getting better value using your points in the timeshare system.
> 
> The problem with the HPP (mainly) is that available inventory is so low, few good exchanges are possible.  Hyatt _should _have done what Marriott did when they launched their DC program and offered existing owners a reasonable fee to "enroll" their week in the HPP without buying points.  That would have created a big boost in participation, increased exchanges and therefore made HPP's actually marketable/valuable in the future.  Existing owners would be enticed to buy points because of the extra flexibility offered.




*I think it a $133 fee is per set of points from each contract (week ) that you might own)  of points - all, or some part Maybe)  with each set coming from a different contract (Not including Float points  - those you can not convert to HPP) that you transfer  each year into the HPP  program.  P.S  as confirmand now I see by ALAMEDA94501  in above post, that  I now see) 



The fee to convert from HRC points to HPC points is  in the HPC fee schedule,  which I have a copy of. these fees were barley mentioned. i.e passed over very quickly,   during the sales process to a current owner)  What's not clear is if I  converted all my points from three different properties all at the same time into the HPP  for the upcoming year is if that would be one transaction (fee) or it if it would be 3 Transactions and 3 Fees.  Knowing Hyatt  suspect it would be 3 transactions and three fees.  There is also a fee to convert HPP club points to HRC points to use for reservations by HPP members into HRC properties  that are not in the HPP Trust . !!   

And yes I agree with you that they should have been more inclusive and reasonable options for current members in their new system, without trying to sell current members  another "membership".  *


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## peas

Perryking - I read your post and went into a sale presentation.  Hopefully this will address some of the good questions you brought up.

What I was told by the sales agent was that you can convert a week one at a time to WOH, but why would you?  He told me the best way one would do that was to spend $133 for each week to convert to HPP ($133x3weeks=$399).  Then after all your 3 weeks are in HPP, convert the points to WOH for one fee of $133.  Of course, you could do one week at a time for a WOH conversion, but why would you want to incur 2 additional $133 fees.  So in the 3 week scenario, in order to play in the WOH pool, you'd have to pay $532 a year for 3 weeks.  They told me that I'd have to buy 1000 points to hyattize 2 weeks and 1500 points to hyattize 3 weeks.
BTW, the WOH conversion fee was clearly $133, not $127.

I also asked about the status and how it's determined.  They said that status is based on how many points you convert to HPP that year.  So if you had 6600 points of 3 diamond weeks that you could potentially convert to HPP and get that highest tier privilege, but you chose only to move 2200 points because you wanted to use your other 2 weeks, then you'd be at that lower tier level that year and all the privileges for that year would be the category associated with that.  So then if in year 2, you converted all 6600 and also that the past year's 2200 rolled over to year 2, then those 2200 points would be subject to the privileges for that lower category of conversion while the 6600 would be subject to the privileges of that high tier category.  It sounds like it's awfully hard for a person to keep up with things though I'd guess it's easy for a computer to keep track.

I was trying to think of a borrowing scenario and how that would work out based on your tier status when you have mixed bag of points with different tiers all combing to make one reservation.  (I thought of this later so I never got to ask).

I also learned that you get 1 free housekeeping fee waiver for a low tier and 2 for the next tier and 3 for the next and 4 for that final tier.  All I could think is that if you're a short term stayer, that's a lot of $60 fees that you'd have to pay.  Housekeeping credits can not roll over like your points can.

I kind of feel bad for HPP owners regarding their wait request limits.  In the legacy program, everyone has the right to request 18 mo out.  In HPP the only way to get that is to have/convert 6600 points.  The lowest tier only gets to request at 14 months out.  They have to pay for something that legacy owners got for free.

Our conclusion like many of you was that the buy in was too high, the MF was too high for what you're getting.  The WOH at 50:1 was break even at best (and our calculations were pretty generous to hyatt), but with all the fees, certain devaluation of WOH points in the future as with all airline miles and hotel points, and most likely us getting more likely a 43 or 45:1 conversion, it didn't make sense.  We'd be better off cash paying as needed.

We thought about buying in at this time due to others depositing their weeks just to get more access to inventory, but I am not convinced the trust has weeks that I seek.  What makes me feel even more strongly about this is that this summer, I get the feeling that they're only targeting current owners at the sales presentation.  Our non-owner friends just got back from a trip to WOR using our points and never got approached for a sales presentation this past week (at check in or a call).  This was quite different from our experience at WOR a month ago where we were asked at check in and then with another call.  Upon hearing this, we thought back to the highlands inn presentation, and there were only owners there too.  It may be a coincidence.

But my guess is that Hyatt is making a big push right now to only target current owners at presentations to tempt them into buying HPP to fund trust weeks to try to get decent inventory.  I see why it may be tempting for resale owners that's not into maximizing value to hyattize to get WOH benefits, but I don't see a big draw for developer purchased owners to pay that much just to make more specific day stays (ex Fri-Sat only stays).

Sorry if I was rehashing some stuff.  This thread is really long, and I'm sure I've missed reading some posts.


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## Kal

peas said:


> ...
> But my guess is that Hyatt is making a big push right now to only target current owners at presentations to tempt them into buying HPP to fund trust weeks to try to get decent inventory...


A buyer off the street would have to pay north of $40K to get 2200 HPP points while the cost to an HRC owner would be $13K plus stupid fees.  Their priority is to build up HPP inventory and make money.  Targeting HRC owners fits that model.


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## jwmitchell02

Last week, we attended an update at the Hyatt Wild Oak Ranch property.  Of course the their focus was to sell us portfolio points.  We currently own 4 weeks in Sedona.  The sales rep was using a new "soon to be released" program called 'Beyond' as his marketing tool to encourage us to buy points.  Has anyone else heard about this new program and if so, what is your interpretation?  Thanks -


----------



## alameda94501

jwmitchell02 said:


> Last week, we attended an update at the Hyatt Wild Oak Ranch property.  Of course the their focus was to sell us portfolio points.  We currently own 4 weeks in Sedona.  The sales rep was using a new "soon to be released" program called 'Beyond' as his marketing tool to encourage us to buy points.  Has anyone else heard about this new program and if so, what is your interpretation?  Thanks -



We attended an owner update a few months ago and they talked about Beyond as well.  No details at all.

What I found interesting is that they have been hyping Beyond for two years since inception of the HPC.  For example, this was a blogger who revealed one of the first presentations, and they were already talking about Beyond:

http://www.thetimeshareguru.com/hyatt-residence-portfolio-program.html

Ultimately I suspect it's just a World of Hyatt FIND Experiences equivalent for HPC:

https://experiences.worldofhyatt.com/


----------



## jwmitchell02

Thanks for your insight.  From what we got out of the sales pitch, regardless many points you actually own, you're just a "few" points short of really having what you need to have the best experience in HRC.


----------



## Sapper

alameda94501 said:


> We attended an owner update a few months ago and they talked about Beyond as well.  No details at all.
> 
> What I found interesting is that they have been hyping Beyond for two years since inception of the HPC.  For example, this was a blogger who revealed one of the first presentations, and they were already talking about Beyond:
> 
> http://www.thetimeshareguru.com/hyatt-residence-portfolio-program.html
> 
> Ultimately I suspect it's just a World of Hyatt FIND Experiences equivalent for HPC:
> 
> https://experiences.worldofhyatt.com/



That is interesting because the timeshare guru’s post predates the Marriott purchase, and “Beyond” is now being discussed at presentations as a way to utilize your points in the Marriott Explorer Collection. 

Please see:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-beyond.293027/
And
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-beyond.293028/

In the end, I felt it was a new spin to help sell HPP. 

To me, this indicates Marriott and ILG were setting things up long before the actual purchase.


----------



## alameda94501

Thanks for this!

Is the term Beyond used in Marriott, or is it just "Explorer Collection"? I think the idea of using points for non-timeshare had been around for a while, but if Marriott had called it "Beyond" that would support the spicy idea that this has been in the works for some time.

My question would be - Marriott's $595 enrollment for legacy owners got missed along the way, but they picked up useless Beyond...?





Sapper said:


> That is interesting because the timeshare guru’s post predates the Marriott purchase, and “Beyond” is now being discussed at presentations as a way to utilize your points in the Marriott Explorer Collection.
> 
> Please see:
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-beyond.293027/
> And
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-beyond.293028/
> 
> In the end, I felt it was a new spin to help sell HPP.
> 
> To me, this indicates Marriott and ILG were setting things up long before the actual purchase.


----------



## Sapper

alameda94501 said:


> Thanks for this!
> 
> Is the term Beyond used in Marriott, or is it just "Explorer Collection"? I think the idea of using points for non-timeshare had been around for a while, but if Marriott had called it "Beyond" that would support the spicy idea that this has been in the works for some time.
> 
> My question would be - Marriott's $595 enrollment for legacy owners got missed along the way, but they picked up useless Beyond...?



When I went to the “update”, they discussed the “Marriott Beyond” Program. It seemed like sales was just getting it figured out and could not show me anything on paper.


----------



## audax one

Here's what I don't get - I am aware that Hyatt is trying to get people to exit from the traditional programs into the points based program. So imagine my surprise when I got an email today (26 March 2020) with an "offer" to exit my points based purchase (made in 2019) w/o any further obligation. Of course, I would have to eat the $32,000 I paid for 1600 points. Loathe as I to do that, yet, I am wondering would it be worth it. I am so unhappy with how this program is run, how much deception was baked in, how hard it is to actually use, how totally bogus the "perks" are, etc.  If I could get a loss on my taxes by eating the 32K, it might be worth it. My worry is what are they really up to? What impact on carrying cost and usage be if I stay? Any insights on that would be appreciated. Thanks!!


----------



## alameda94501

Hi @audax one

Sorry to hear that it was such a negative experience.  Just a few questions: Do you already have an HRC (legacy) deeded week?  Are they offering you any money?  Do they have a person at Hyatt to contact?  Do you use the Portfolio Points at all?

Would you mind cutting and pasting the email?  I'm curious how they framed such an email to you.

----

On the surface, it just seems like a way for unhappy folks to stop paying the annual fees, especially if they aren't using the Portfolio Points.  They get the points back to sell someone else for another $32k, lucky them.  The downside for them is that it semi-publicly demonstrates they feel their Portfolio Points are worth $0 after a year.

I think a deeper written exchange is needed with someone from Hyatt.  I am an HRC legacy owner but not a Portfolio owner, but I would ask if I were you:

1.  Are you going to sweeten the pot with some $?
2.  What would you provide me to help me write this off on my taxes?  (I'm not sure you can do this easily without a deeded week, but I'm no tax expert.)
3.  I have a buyer in mind who can beat your $0 for points, can you help me resell these points to them instead?  
4.  (If you have an HRC deeded week) If I give up the points can you at least guarantee me the chance to do the annual conversion to the Portfolio program?

I think that last question is a key one - it's really only the benefit of a legacy owner gaining 6mo early access to the Portfolio trust weeks.

Hope that helps.  I'd love to see the email.


----------



## audax one

alameda94501 said:


> Hi @audax one
> 
> Sorry to hear that it was such a negative experience.  Just a few questions: Do you already have an HRC (legacy) deeded week?  Are they offering you any money?  Do they have a person at Hyatt to contact?  Do you use the Portfolio Points at all?
> 
> Would you mind cutting and pasting the email?  I'm curious how they framed such an email to you.
> 
> ----
> 
> On the surface, it just seems like a way for unhappy folks to stop paying the annual fees, especially if they aren't using the Portfolio Points.  They get the points back to sell someone else for another $32k, lucky them.  The downside for them is that it semi-publicly demonstrates they feel their Portfolio Points are worth $0 after a year.
> 
> I think a deeper written exchange is needed with someone from Hyatt.  I am an HRC legacy owner but not a Portfolio owner, but I would ask if I were you:
> 
> 1.  Are you going to sweeten the pot with some $?
> 2.  What would you provide me to help me write this off on my taxes?  (I'm not sure you can do this easily without a deeded week, but I'm no tax expert.)
> 3.  I have a buyer in mind who can beat your $0 for points, can you help me resell these points to them instead?
> 4.  (If you have an HRC deeded week) If I give up the points can you at least guarantee me the chance to do the annual conversion to the Portfolio program?
> 
> I think that last question is a key one - it's really only the benefit of a legacy owner gaining 6mo early access to the Portfolio trust weeks.
> 
> Hope that helps.  I'd love to see the email.


Lotsa questions there. First, I cannot cut/paste the email, there is legalese at the bottom the expressly prohibits that. 

I am in the points program, so there is no "deeded week". They are offering $0. They are only offering a "relinquishing of further maintenance payments" after this year is up. Most of your questions presume that I have a deeded week, so I cannot answer them. In summary: they are offering squat. Just a way to get out. I called them and they verified this. I have seven days, by the way, to make up my mind. I suspect the pressure is coming from Marriot, who took over the whole thing recently. God knows what is coming once they have cleared away as much old debris as they can.


----------



## alameda94501

Got it. How do they even start the letter, is it something like "We think you might be unhappy with your purchase, so have we got a deal for you..."

It's pretty audacious to get your points back so they can resell them for another $32k.

On the other hand in down economies like 2008 their developer sales dropped precipitously.  So maybe they can't resell it anyway.


----------



## Kal

I suspect sales of the Portfolio Program has fallen off the cliff due to Covad-19.  It would be interesting to see what "specials" will be forthcoming.

Spending $32K in itself could cause the buyer to see if the Portfolio Points could be used for reservations at any hospital ICU.


----------



## GTLINZ

audax one said:


> I am in the points program, so there is no "deeded week". They are offering $0. They are only offering a "relinquishing of further maintenance payments" after this year is up.



Sorry to hear about your predicament.

You have already dropped $32k into this mess and I would think it is time to make lemonade. The 1600 points should be able to get reservations that are worth more than the MF.  There may be limited PP inventory but that should improve over time - and you have a jump on deeded owners with access to PP inventory with a waitlist request (likely more than 12 months out like deeded owners).  You also have access to deeded weeks inventory 6 months out or can submit requests for deeded weeks inventory 18 months out which is the same as deeded owners.  If you are not looking for peak season there are usually options 6 months out.

I bet they would love it if you turned it in.  I also suspect you might get a better offer later. I too think they are trying to minimize the damage of how to straighten this out long term.


----------



## audax one

GTLINZ said:


> Sorry to hear about your predicament.
> 
> You have already dropped $32k into this mess and I would think it is time to make lemonade. The 1600 points should be able to get reservations that are worth more than the MF.  There may be limited PP inventory but that should improve over time - and you have a jump on deeded owners with access to PP inventory with a waitlist request (likely more than 12 months out like deeded owners).  You also have access to deeded weeks inventory 6 months out or can submit requests for deeded weeks inventory 18 months out which is the same as deeded owners.  If you are not looking for peak season there are usually options 6 months out.
> 
> I bet they would love it if you turned it in.  I also suspect you might get a better offer later. I too think they are trying to minimize the damage of how to straighten this out long term.


Well, I think we can all agree - they are up to something, and they ain't telling. I am trying, now, to find out if eating the loss of this "deeded property" could at least be written off taxes. That might not suck. It would make the effective loss less than $32K _and_ get me out of the program.


----------



## Kal

You need to carefully look at the IRS rules on timeshares.  Those rules are very specific and you're not going to like what you see.


----------



## audax one

Kal said:


> You need to carefully look at the IRS rules on timeshares.  Those rules are very specific and you're not going to like what you see.


Yea, I asked my tax guy, he said I am out of luck.


----------



## Kal

I guess we can add 2 + 2 together and conclude the IRS doesn't consider time share as anything but a pre-paid vacation and not real property.  Now if you rent a unit you OWN, the IRS wants a piece of that action if there is a gain.


----------



## Islnd

Reading the HPP forum my head is spinning.  I'm currently an owner for the legacy HRC program.  I went to an owner presentation and could not really figure out the benefits, mainly because I was new and not fully understood the Legacy program to begin with.  I'm trying to understand the benefit of buying the minimum (whatever that is) into the HPP program.  If we assume due to Covid-19 I can buy them at $15 or $10 a point, is that still a bad deal?  Is there a price where an expert would buy into the HPP?  Can someone help me understand a bit better the benefits of buying into HPP. Thanks!


----------



## alameda94501

Islnd said:


> Reading the HPP forum my head is spinning.  I'm currently an owner for the legacy HRC program.  I went to an owner presentation and could not really figure out the benefits, mainly because I was new and not fully understood the Legacy program to begin with.  I'm trying to understand the benefit of buying the minimum (whatever that is) into the HPP program.  If we assume due to Covid-19 I can buy them at $15 or $10 a point, is that still a bad deal?  Is there a price where an expert would buy into the HPP?  Can someone help me understand a bit better the benefits of buying into HPP. Thanks!



Yes, it's not easy to understand for a new Legacy owner.  

The first thing to note is during COVID-19 you can only make life easier for yourself by not committing anything as the price is likely to go down, based on the 2008 Hyatt response.  So if you bought anything, rescind, and sit back.  There is zero chance of missing out these days.

Second, it's a bad deal to purchase even small point quantities of HPP because of the maintenance expenses per point, and HPP fees, not because of the initial $20/$15/$10 buy-in price.  

The theoretical benefits of HPP for a HRC Legacy owner would be to buy "zero" HPP points but still be allowed to trade your week on an annual basis into the Portfolio Pool.  This would gain you access to their inventory with 12 mo (instead of 6mo) access time.  Their inventory is really only in Wild Oak in Texas and Coconut Plantation in Florida, with a minor in Carmel in California and Windward in Florida.

Hope that clears things up a bit.


----------



## GTLINZ

Islnd said:


> Can someone help me understand a bit better the benefits of buying into HPP. Thanks!



I do not believe you will find many tuggers on this thread or on this forum who would agree that any benefits of buying into HPP are worth the associated costs.  The most glaring issue will be understood once you do some research on the resale value of HPP points - which appears to be close to zero.


----------



## Kal

GTLINZ said:


> ... The most glaring issue will be understood once you do some research on the resale value of HPP points - which appears to be close to zero.


I would suggest the resale value of HPP points is ZERO, rather than "close to zero".


----------



## Islnd

alameda94501 said:


> Yes, it's not easy to understand for a new Legacy owner.
> 
> The first thing to note is during COVID-19 you can only make life easier for yourself by not committing anything as the price is likely to go down, based on the 2008 Hyatt response.  So if you bought anything, rescind, and sit back.  There is zero chance of missing out these days.
> 
> Second, it's a bad deal to purchase even small point quantities of HPP because of the maintenance expenses per point, and HPP fees, not because of the initial $20/$15/$10 buy-in price.
> 
> The theoretical benefits of HPP for a HRC Legacy owner would be to buy "zero" HPP points but still be allowed to trade your week on an annual basis into the Portfolio Pool.  This would gain you access to their inventory with 12 mo (instead of 6mo) access time.  Their inventory is really only in Wild Oak in Texas and Coconut Plantation in Florida, with a minor in Carmel in California and Windward in Florida.
> 
> Hope that clears things up a bit.



Good point about HPP being worth $0 in secondary market.  Since I plan on using  this for another 10 years at least to me it seemed the value was/is access to inventory earlier and going forward in the future if they build new locations, which I guess they haven't yet so?  For that I was willing  to pay some money even knowing it would be worth $0 on the secondary market immediately.  I was not aware that inventory is only at Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation.


----------



## audax one

Islnd said:


> Good point about HPP being worth $0 in secondary market.  Since I plan on using  this for another 10 years at least to me it seemed the value was/is access to inventory earlier and going forward in the future if they build new locations, which I guess they haven't yet so?  For that I was willing  to pay some money even knowing it would be worth $0 on the secondary market immediately.  I was not aware that inventory is only at Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation.


Yea, I am going down with the ship here. I cannot recover that $32K. I want to get some use out of it before I walk away from it (or give it away). Inventory is not officially just at those two locations, not sure where you are getting that. Presumably there are many locations (one of the lies, I mean, selling points). I am aware that the Sarasota location is essentially never available. It was lies on top of more lies. I hope there is a class action suit someday, I would join it immediately.


----------



## GTLINZ

audax one said:


> Yea, I am going down with the ship here. I cannot recover that $32K.



Very sorry to hear that you were mislead. I would also say you have plenty of company on Tug with people who were taken advantage of - but we are here now and we learn to 1) not get swindled again and 2) maximize the use of what we have.

Siesta Key is not a typical weekly ownership - it is fractional (usually larger chunks of time). I think somebody has to decide they want to use Hyatt points and turn in some of their time for it to be available. So I don't think it becomes available by default at 6 months out if a reservation for it is not made. That would explain why availability is rare. 

The PP locations you have the booking advantage on are not plentiful at this point but may become so later if corporate keeps buying legacy weeks. But you do have access to HRC weeks also and I hope you decide to use what you have - it will eventually give you some payback that will ease the pain. Each year I use my points I get more value out of them that the MFs I pay in. 

One real advantage of Hyatt is inventory in the Keys - so if you like the area it is not that hard to book outside of snowbird time.


----------



## GTLINZ

Kal said:


> I would suggest the resale value of HPP points is ZERO, rather than "close to zero".



Dealing with timeshares is kinda like playing with grenades - close to the target is good enough since the damage inflicted is about the same!


----------



## Kal

GTLINZ said:


> ...Siesta Key is not a typical weekly ownership - it is fractional (usually larger chunks of time). I think somebody has to decide they want to use Hyatt points and turn in some of their time for it to be available. So I don't think it becomes available by default at 6 months out if a reservation for it is not made. That would explain why availability is rare....


The purchase price for Siesta Key was substantial.  I believe those owners have various options for usage.  If they don't occupy the unit themselves, the best option would be to rent the unit.  I don't see where they could get comparable value by applying the points for usage in the HRC system (except for maybe two of the Colorado high mountain resorts).


----------



## audax one

GTLINZ said:


> Very sorry to hear that you were mislead. I would also say you have plenty of company on Tug with people who were taken advantage of - but we are here now and we learn to 1) not get swindled again and 2) maximize the use of what we have.
> 
> Siesta Key is not a typical weekly ownership - it is fractional (usually larger chunks of time). I think somebody has to decide they want to use Hyatt points and turn in some of their time for it to be available. So I don't think it becomes available by default at 6 months out if a reservation for it is not made. That would explain why availability is rare.
> 
> The PP locations you have the booking advantage on are not plentiful at this point but may become so later if corporate keeps buying legacy weeks. But you do have access to HRC weeks also and I hope you decide to use what you have - it will eventually give you some payback that will ease the pain. Each year I use my points I get more value out of them that the MFs I pay in.
> 
> One real advantage of Hyatt is inventory in the Keys - so if you like the area it is not that hard to book outside of snowbird time.


Appreciate the encouragement thanks. I think it is very interesting that they offered me to get out of the maint (i.e. dissolve the obligation) a little while ago. I still wonder what they are up to, and given the track record, I can't imagine it is going to be a benefit to me. Sure, I like the keys just fine. I usually go to the plantation, and most of the time you can use the Hyatt Regency property rigth next door (of course you have to pay to park there now - I love being nickel and dimed to death).


----------



## alameda94501

audax one said:


> [...] Inventory is not officially just at those two locations, not sure where you are getting that.



@audax one, very sorry to hear you stuck as an HPC buyer.  I wrote a series of seven posts on the Portfolio Club last year (mainly from the perspective of a legacy HRC owner) and one of them went through the Legal Property Records to gain a picture of the HPC Inventory.  Since Coconut Plantation is the next (and only known) HPC expansion, that's what I meant by "Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation" being the primary two properties.  The post is as of June 2019, but only Coconut Plantation would be the difference, besides a small smattering of ROFR purchases by Hyatt.  

Click here for the HRC and HPC Inventory Post

Also in case it is helpful, here are the other six posts.

Click here for the Introduction Post
Click here for the Request List, Wait List, and Reservations Post
Click here for the Annual Conversion Option Post
Click here for the Hyattizing and Developer Benefits Post
Click here for the Sales Tactics using the Reservation Site 
Click here for the Maintenance Fee


----------



## audax one

alameda94501 said:


> @audax one, very sorry to hear you stuck as an HPC buyer.  I wrote a series of seven posts on the Portfolio Club last year (mainly from the perspective of a legacy HRC owner) and one of them went through the Legal Property Records to gain a picture of the HPC Inventory.  Since Coconut Plantation is the next (and only known) HPC expansion, that's what I meant by "Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation" being the primary two properties.  The post is as of June 2019, but only Coconut Plantation would be the difference, besides a small smattering of ROFR purchases by Hyatt.
> 
> Click here for the HRC and HPC Inventory Post
> 
> Also in case it is helpful, here are the other six posts.
> 
> Click here for the Introduction Post
> Click here for the Request List, Wait List, and Reservations Post
> Click here for the Annual Conversion Option Post
> Click here for the Hyattizing and Developer Benefits Post
> Click here for the Sales Tactics using the Reservation Site
> Click here for the Maintenance Fee


This is a stunning amount of information, thank you. It is going to take some time to take it all in. I remember pressing them, hard, so I thought, for complete info when I was entangled in the sales process. I can see how woefully inadequate my efforts were now. What a mess. Thanks again.


----------



## Kal

audax one said:


> This is a stunning amount of information, thank you. It is going to take some time to take it all in. I remember pressing them, hard, so I thought, for complete info when I was entangled in the sales process. I can see how woefully inadequate my efforts were now. What a mess. Thanks again.


As I recall, Hyatt provides HPP buyers with a "deed".  That would seem to give comfort to a prospective buyer.  Of course the deed is for points not real property.  Can you imagine how the county clerk would react to someone attempting to record that deed!


----------



## Anthony Schmid

Is HPP so bad that its not even worth $0?


----------



## audax one

Anthony Schmid said:


> Is HPP so bad that its not even worth $0?
> 
> View attachment 22088


Well, maybe. They don't shoot straight, that much is for sure. Would I have rescind if I could now? yes. I would. For me, I like going to the coconut plantation and when you do, you get to use the Hyatt Regency facilities next door, which are spectacular. They have black dates, so watch for that. If you can manage to utilize it at resort you like, and you enjoy it, I imagine (I hope) over time, you can justify the layout, not feel so bad about it. If you have not bought yet, I would say - stay away.


----------



## Anthony Schmid

I'm currently closing on week 51 at Coconut Plantation at Bonita Springs, FL for $6,500. Hyatt just waived the sale last week so i'm good to go. I was reading about the HPP because it offered 1 night stays. I live in Orlando, FL and was considering HPP until i seen that all resorts are not apart of the HPP program.


----------



## audax one

Anthony Schmid said:


> I'm currently closing on week 51 at Coconut Plantation at Bonita Springs, FL for $6,500. Hyatt just waived the sale last week so i'm good to go. I was reading about the HPP because it offered 1 night stays. I live in Orlando, FL and was considering HPP until i seen that all resorts are not apart of the HPP program.


Correct. There is  a lot of bait and switch going on. They make you think "oh, you can go to any of these, anytime you want" but in reality, you cannot. They never talk about the "inventory" per the old programs, and how little inventory there actually is in the new program. Of course, you can use the old inventory if there is any available - for a additional cost, of course. They have lots of additional costs.


----------



## alameda94501

audax one said:


> Well, maybe. They don't shoot straight, that much is for sure. Would I have rescind if I could now? yes. I would. For me, I like going to the coconut plantation and when you do, you get to use the Hyatt Regency facilities next door, which are spectacular. They have black dates, so watch for that. If you can manage to utilize it at resort you like, and you enjoy it, I imagine (I hope) over time, you can justify the layout, not feel so bad about it. If you have not bought yet, I would say - stay away.



That's good, @audax one, that you like Coconut Plantation.  Especially if/when the new extension in Coconut Plantation is complete, HPP owners have a strong advantage with all that HPP inventory.  You'll get a six month headstart on the HPP inventory at Coconut Plantation and be dead-even in competing with HRC Legacy owners if you want to use their HRC inventory at Coconut Plantation (with the additional fees).


----------



## audax one

alameda94501 said:


> That's good, @audax one, that you like Coconut Plantation.  Especially if/when the new extension in Coconut Plantation is complete, HPP owners have a strong advantage with all that HPP inventory.  You'll get a six month headstart on the HPP inventory at Coconut Plantation and be dead-even in competing with HRC Legacy owners if you want to use their HRC inventory at Coconut Plantation (with the additional fees).


Sure. But only 25% of the property is "dedicated" to HPP at Coconut. It is pretty galling that, during the pitch, they make you think this is "so flexible, it is the equivalent to booking a hotel on a whim for a long weekend" - ha! Not even close. You need to plan you trip at least six months out, and God knows, plans never change, right!?


----------



## AJCts411

I may be off base here, being a non user of the points, use my weeks. But how can HPP trump an owned deeded week at Coconut plantation?  That is to say if you lie it that much why not by?


----------



## audax one

AJCts411 said:


> I may be off base here, being a non user of the points, use my weeks. But how can HPP trump an owned deeded week at Coconut plantation?  That is to say if you lie it that much why not by?


I am not sure I understand your question, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I am guessing you think HPP owners trump non-HPP owners - that is NOT the case at all. They "allow" HPP people to access non-HPP inventory IF IT IS AVAILABLE for the time you want to be there. Otherwise, HPP owner is out of luck (that should be their motto for HPP owners - "out of luck").


----------



## GTLINZ

AJCts411 said:


> But how can HPP trump an owned deeded week at Coconut plantation?  That is to say if you lie it that much why not by?



Not sure what this means either.

You will see in the links above an analysis of the rules for reservations and waitlists.  With HPC and HRC owners trying to get access to availability from both pools, the analysis goes thru the 4 combinations of both types of owners vying for inventory in each pool. The following statement found in the analysis may address your question - is is found in *"Case 2: HPC Requests/Reservations for HRC Inventory Pool"* 

"_This is at the crux of how Hyatt (HVGG) favors the HPC. What the Club to Club Exchange Agreement says is simply: _"HVGG shall maintain all request lists or wait lists in accordance with the respective Club’s rules."

_But... in HRC we have an 18mo Request List for HRC Inventory and in HPC they have a 12mo Request List for HPC Inventory except for the Membership Tier Bonus.

So - 1) An HRC member has no Membership Tier so we don't get the bonus and so we get a 12mo Request List for HPC Inventory, and 2) An HPC member can put forth an 18mo Request List for HRC Inventory._ "


----------



## bradj

audax one said:


> I am not sure I understand your question, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I am guessing you think HPP owners trump non-HPP owners - that is NOT the case at all. They "allow" HPP people to access non-HPP inventory IF IT IS AVAILABLE for the time you want to be there. Otherwise, HPP owner is out of luck (that should be their motto for HPP owners - "out of luck").


And try exiting the HPP program. Talk about "out of luck." There's absolutely no established resale market. No value. Deeded owners beware and don't buy or convert. Deeded weeks at least have some value.


----------



## audax one

I am done. I put my points up on the redweek site, and just about gave it away for near nothing. What is the point? Why continue with an outfit that continues ridiculous "safety measures" - that's no vacation. Sayonara y'all  - best of luck to you all. NEVER buy a timeshare.


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## Texx

Attended an owners' update presentation today on HPP.  Sales agent was forthright and quite likable.   Acknowledged that MF under HRC could be substantially lower than HPP, but hit on the "benefits" of HPP--points are good for several years, longer reservation periods, fewer charges/fees as compared to HRC, access to newly acquired Welk Resorts, access to new buildings at certain properties, opportunities to exchange for cruises and special events, and respectable WOH transfer rates.  I think some of the benefits do have some worth--though certainly not at the very high price they were pushing for HPP points.


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## audax one

Texx said:


> Attended an owners' update presentation today on HPP.  Sales agent was forthright and quite likable.   Acknowledged that MF under HRC could be substantially lower than HPP, but hit on the "benefits" of HPP--points are good for several years, longer reservation periods, fewer charges/fees as compared to HRC, access to newly acquired Welk Resorts, access to new buildings at certain properties, opportunities to exchange for cruises and special events, and respectable WOH transfer rates.  I think some of the benefits do have some worth--though certainly not at the very high price they were pushing for HPP points.


Sorry, don't trust a word out of their mouths. I made my peace, took the bath, walked away. Repackaged lies are still lies.


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## Brindle

I am confused about the reservation period. I have a substantial number of banked 2021 HPP points that I want to use in just under at year. I have been told that since they are last year's points I can not use them until I am 6 month before the reservation.  I have not made any other HPP reservations this year, though I converted my current years points to the world of hyatt program. I have the lowest tier of HPP-660 and prepandemic it allowed me to convert my fixed week to HPP which was useful.   I can't understand why I can not book until 6 months before and assume what I want-which of course is now available- will be gone.  Ellen Musinsky


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## Anthony Schmid

Does every reservation require a house keeping fee of $60 plus $41 transaction fee even if you stay 7 nights with Hyatt Portfolio Program?

*Fees*

Transaction: $41.
Housekeeping: $60, payable to the resort upon departure.


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## travelhacker

Anthony Schmid said:


> Does every reservation require a house keeping fee of $60 plus $41 transaction fee even if you stay 7 nights with Hyatt Portfolio Program?
> 
> *Fees*
> 
> Transaction: $41.
> Housekeeping: $60, payable to the resort upon departure.


Starting from 6 months out HRC members can book Portfolio reservations, but you must pay the $41 transaction fee and a $60 housekeeping fee at check out. I've done this to book 6 night stays (Sunday -> Saturday) to avoid the Saturday penalty in points and it's worked out well...particularly considering that I would have had to pay the $39 split week fee.


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## GTLINZ

Brindle said:


> I am confused about the reservation period. I have a substantial number of banked 2021 HPP points that I want to use in just under at year. I have been told that since they are last year's points I can not use them until I am 6 month before the reservation.  I have not made any other HPP reservations this year, though I converted my current years points to the world of hyatt program. I have the lowest tier of HPP-660 and prepandemic it allowed me to convert my fixed week to HPP which was useful.   I can't understand why I can not book until 6 months before and assume what I want-which of course is now available- will be gone.  Ellen Musinsky



You need to go into your account and see what bucket(s) your points are in.  If they are RCUP or LCUP you can only make reservations 2 months into the future.  HRPP/CUP points can book anything you see online. Points also expire - but the date range each group of points is active should be all listed in your account.

Online inventory lists both HRC and HPP points so there are rules about when you can book the opposite of what you own - but I would think if you can see it and have unrestricted points you can book it.  There is a long thread on the rules of booking both depending on what you own.  Another reason 6 months is discussed is because any HRC owned week not booked by 6 months out becomes available to everyone. An owner DOES have to reserve his own HRC unit. But some folks release their week as far as 12 months out by using some of their points.

So it is all about what you can see online, and if you have any restriction on those points (the 2 month limit).


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## Mongoose

Just went to an Owner's update in Sedona.  They are claiming that Marriott is buying a large number of properties to roll into the Hyatt program.  Call me skeptical, but I don't see Marriott doing that.  Do you know if their purchase agreement for ILG requires them to expand the Hyatt portfolio?


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## Mongoose

Mongoose said:


> Just went to an Owner's update in Sedona.  They are claiming that Marriott is buying a large number of properties to roll into the Hyatt program.  Call me skeptical, but I don't see Marriott doing that.  Do you know if their purchase agreement for ILG requires them to expand the Hyatt portfolio?


Also,  They were trying to get the lady behind me to swap here eyoy deeded week at Sedona for 1320 points annually for $28K.  I wanted to scream don't do it!!!  They offered me 1000 points annually for $16K.  They weren't happy when they found out I purchase on the resale market.


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## mjm1

Mongoose said:


> Just went to an Owner's update in Sedona.  They are claiming that Marriott is buying a large number of properties to roll into the Hyatt program.  Call me skeptical, but I don't see Marriott doing that.  Do you know if their purchase agreement for ILG requires them to expand the Hyatt portfolio?



Actually that is true. MVC is buying Welk Resorts to rebrand them as Hyatt. However, nobody including sales staff know how the system will interplay at this time.

Enjoy Sedona.

Best regards.

Mike


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## alexadeparis

Mongoose said:


> Just went to an Owner's update in Sedona.  They are claiming that Marriott is buying a large number of properties to roll into the Hyatt program.  Call me skeptical, but I don't see Marriott doing that.  Do you know if their purchase agreement for ILG requires them to expand the Hyatt portfolio?


They probably mean the recent Welk acquisition


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## audax one

Oh, in case anyone is considering unloading their crooked Points based timeshare on Red Week - I posted it for practically zero, just to get rid of it. someone took the bait, but Hyatt (Marriot now) exercised their ROFR - comes as no surprise. They get to sell it all over again to the next sucker. It's quite a racket.


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## hcarman

audax one said:


> Oh, in case anyone is considering unloading their crooked Points based timeshare on Red Week - I posted it for practically zero, just to get rid of it. someone took the bait, but Hyatt (Marriot now) exercised their ROFR - comes as no surprise. They get to sell it all over again to the next sucker. It's quite a racket.



We have had a terrible experience with the Portfolio Program.  We owned a week with Hyatt and have for years.  They suckered us into the program a few years back because it was "more flexible and fewer fees".   This couldn't be further from the truth.  Because we also own Marriott and see tremendous value in Destination Club Program, we were sold on the fact it was the a replicate program.  Also couldn't be further from the truth. So for the past year and a half we have been trying to get rid of this small portfolio points purchase.  And you are right - they have no value.  We have written to Hyatt Corporate explaining to them all the problems - especially with someone that owns a week 52 - like we do.  You have to make a decision almost two years out to convert our week, pay maintenance twice in the year, etc.  The best they could do was have us meet with Sales in San Antonio.  They offered us a great deal - giving them our Hyatt Carmel week 52 in exchange for the same number of Portfolio points with the added bonus that you have to pay them an extra 7,000.  What?!?  Are they out of their mind?  At least the weeks are worth something and can be sold.  The sales guy acted like I was crazy when I told him we have some value in keeping our week - no value with the points.  And no buy back program with the points.  My opinion is the program is pretty much a flop.  Only three resorts with most of the inventory and some without any.


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## Mongoose

hcarman said:


> We have had a terrible experience with the Portfolio Program.  We owned a week with Hyatt and have for years.  They suckered us into the program a few years back because it was "more flexible and fewer fees".   This couldn't be further from the truth.  Because we also own Marriott and see tremendous value in Destination Club Program, we were sold on the fact it was the a replicate program.  Also couldn't be further from the truth. So for the past year and a half we have been trying to get rid of this small portfolio points purchase.  And you are right - they have no value.  We have written to Hyatt Corporate explaining to them all the problems - especially with someone that owns a week 52 - like we do.  You have to make a decision almost two years out to convert our week, pay maintenance twice in the year, etc.  The best they could do was have us meet with Sales in San Antonio.  They offered us a great deal - giving them our Hyatt Carmel week 52 in exchange for the same number of Portfolio points with the added bonus that you have to pay them an extra 7,000.  What?!?  Are they out of their mind?  At least the weeks are worth something and can be sold.  The sales guy acted like I was crazy when I told him we have some value in keeping our week - no value with the points.  And no buy back program with the points.  My opinion is the program is pretty much a flop.  Only three resorts with most of the inventory and some without any.


It sad how often that works.  When I was at my "owner update" they offered me 1100 HPP for $16K.  The lady behind me was looking at some deal for $30K she also had HRC.  Of course they had a big wall of all the resorts including Hawaii, and of course they failed to mention you can't use HPP for Hawaii.


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## hcarman

Mongoose said:


> It sad how often that works.  When I was at my "owner update" they offered me 1100 HPP for $16K.  The lady behind me was looking at some deal for $30K she also had HRC.  Of course they had a big wall of all the resorts including Hawaii, and of course they failed to mention you can't use HPP for Hawaii.


I agree.  I knew immediately I wasn’t going to take any deal like paying them for my prime week Carmel for the privilege of the Portfolio points.  And these guys act like you are crazy when you say the week is worth more than the points.


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## Mongoose

hcarman said:


> I agree.  I knew immediately I wasn’t going to take any deal like paying them for my prime week Carmel for the privilege of the Portfolio points.  And these guys act like you are crazy when you say the week is worth more than the points.


In theory what is the advantage supposed to be for HPP over HRC?  You already have your points with HRC plus your fixed week.  Its almost like if your company said, hey why don't you trade in those six weeks of old obsolete vacation time and we will give you two "new" weeks of personal time you can use for anything you like.


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## Kal

Mongoose said:


> ....Of course they had a big wall of all the resorts including Hawaii, and of course they failed to mention you can't use HPP for Hawaii.


I just attended Hyatt's presentation in Maui.  It was well done, but the best part was they NEVER, EVER mentioned PORTFOLIO.  It was pure HRC!  I have been to many Hyatt presentations and this one was actually pretty good.  I only touched my wallet to add in the $150 gift card.


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## Mongoose

Kal said:


> I just attended Hyatt's presentation in Maui.  It was well done, but the best part was they NEVER, EVER mentioned PORTFOLIO.  It was pure HRC!  I have been to many Hyatt presentations and this one was actually pretty good.  I only touched my wallet to add in the $150 gift card.


Were they trying to sell you a HRC unit at Maui or somewhere else?  If you don't mind me asking, what was their "best" offer.


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## Kal

Mongoose said:


> Were they trying to sell you a HRC unit at Maui or somewhere else?  If you don't mind me asking, what was their "best" offer.


Definitely a sales pitch.  All kinds of discounts especially for HRC owners.  The best offer was Week 13, EOY, 2 BR, Mid Band Unit at ~$30,000; MF=$3,000 (EOY).  There was a heavy emphasis on renting the unit for $1,600 per night (Hyatt rates).  [A basic room next door at the Hyatt Regency goes for >$500/night].  They claim the ROI would be 6 years.


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## hcarman

Kal said:


> Definitely a sales pitch.  All kinds of discounts especially for HRC owners.  The best offer was Week 13, EOY, 2 BR, Mid Band Unit at ~$30,000; MF=$3,000 (EOY).  There was a heavy emphasis on renting the unit for $1,600 per night (Hyatt rates).  [A basic room next door at the Hyatt Regency goes for >$500/night].  They claim the ROI would be 6 years.


Sales seems to like to play the rental card,  Of course what we have found is things don’t usually rent for even close to what the hotel next door rents for - not talking Maui but in general.  One year we tried to rent our Marriott Vacation Club through Marriott rentals.  They wouldn’t even offer enough to cover our maintenance.  Even with the 60/40 split it wasn’t even close to what Marriott was listing for online.  So we didn’t accept the offer.  We have had same issue renting at Carmel.  Hotel rents for 800 plus tax a night during our week (and CA taxes are hefty) - yet on rental sites no one is even in same ballpark as the cost is pretty much based solely on covering some maintenance (not recouping the buy in amount at all).


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## hcarman

So a question on someone that only owned Portfolio - would there be any situation where they might see Hawaii availability?  Or any other property with no Portfolio inventory?   Like if a Hawaii owner joined Portfolio and converted their week into Portfolio Points - would it show up in PP bucket?  It seems like from the HRC side you can see Portfolio inventory?  Is it released to all a certain number of months out?  The inventory buckets are still a bit vague.  Destination Club program with MVCI so much smoother than Portfolio.


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## alameda94501

hcarman said:


> So a question on someone that only owned Portfolio - would there be any situation where they might see Hawaii availability?  Or any other property with no Portfolio inventory?   Like if a Hawaii owner joined Portfolio and converted their week into Portfolio Points - would it show up in PP bucket?  It seems like from the HRC side you can see Portfolio inventory?  Is it released to all a certain number of months out?  The inventory buckets are still a bit vague.  Destination Club program with MVCI so much smoother than Portfolio.



Yes, that's the theory. Members of Portfolio have substantive inventory in Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation, and Portfolio members have an internal trade option six months ahead in what is called ORP, then release to the general HRC side for the last six months, as is usual for legacy. If an HRC member converts for a year they give up their week into the Portfolio inventory along this timing.


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## AJCts411

hcarman said:


> Sales seems to like to play the rental card,  Of course what we have found is things don’t usually rent for even close to what the hotel next door rents for - not talking Maui but in general.  One year we tried to rent our Marriott Vacation Club through Marriott rentals.  They wouldn’t even offer enough to cover our maintenance.  Even with the 60/40 split it wasn’t even close to what Marriott was listing for online.  So we didn’t accept the offer.  We have had same issue renting at Carmel.  Hotel rents for 800 plus tax a night during our week (and CA taxes are hefty) - yet on rental sites no one is even in same ballpark as the cost is pretty much based solely on covering some maintenance (not recouping the buy in amount at all).



Indeed, the "owners" rentals do not come near that of a Hyatt rental.  I believe that is because owner rentals usually do not have the more flexible cancellation policies, and the perception of private being more risky, less guaranteed that that of the brand.  And along with owners who are just happy to dump their week to cover maintenance fees, profits are being left on the table. (not a complaint)  I can relate that currently our weeks rent for at least 6700.00 plus resort fees per week through Hyatt while privately they are listed about 2700-3000, no resort fees, for the same product.  
The portfolio points, we have been to a couple of updates, I find of little value, if any.  But I still enjoyed the (at the time) $150.00 voucher, tour tokens and a free ride close to our breakfast destination, all for 45 minutes of our time.


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## Kal

AJCts411 said:


> Indeed, the "owners" rentals do not come near that of a Hyatt rental.  I believe that is because owner rentals usually do not have the more flexible cancellation policies, and the perception of private being more risky, less guaranteed that that of the brand.  And along with owners who are just happy to dump their week to cover maintenance fees, profits are being left on the table. (not a complaint)  I can relate that currently our weeks rent for at least 6700.00 plus resort fees per week through Hyatt while privately they are listed about 2700-3000, no resort fees, for the same product.
> The portfolio points, we have been to a couple of updates, I find of little value, if any.  But I still enjoyed the (at the time) $150.00 voucher, tour tokens and a free ride close to our breakfast destination, all for 45 minutes of our time.


At one time the pitch was to use the points to stay literally anywhere.  The rental option just wasn't mentioned.  Now renting your unit is a key option.  The inflated numbers provide an excuse to consider the purchase as an "investment" with a short ROI.  They tease with the profitable rental rates, but never go thru the details of how it really works.  The bottom line remains that purchasing a timeshare is NOT an investment.  More like a money hole.


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## PerryKing

I signed up for $200 in the court yard / pool area Kiosk of the Hyatt Hotel in Key West - Old Town,  about 2 years ago now.

And be sure not to confuse an *"Owners Update with a "Members Update" * The members update being a meeting with the Resort Manager  or other staff for updates on the (their) resort, conditions. Such as planed updates etc.  i.e. Is not (or should not be) a sales pitch in any way.

I meet a couple at HRC Maui who were new owners and staying for the second time, and they knew nothing about "their" club, and said they did not go to the "Member's Update" thinking it was just  another sales pitch.  I did clue them they should always try to attend their resorts  Members Update meeting (or others that they are staying at) to get the update on the Resort and Hyatt club news from the resort management  and that it is not or should NOT be a sales meeting from  HRC  sales personnel.


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## dsmrp

I succumbed last week at an owners update and bought the minimum HPP points. Mainly cause would like a way to bank the points due to stuff happening and not being able to travel. Fortunately we rescinded in time. In fact we sent 2 letters, the first 2 days ago, and the 2nd letter today returning the publications & even the bag they gave on day of purchase. 

We weren't sure about needing to send back the books, but I happened to see a Wyndham thread about rescinding, and one post recommended sending the stuff back to prevent the developer from charging for them.

My questions:
1. Will Hyatt send a reply on the revision? Or will we just have to watch for a credit applied to our credit card?
2. Approximately how long does it take to get a refund or credit back to our card?

Thanks much !


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## dsmrp

My impression from sales last week, is that Marriott is not giving up on HPP. And with the completed sale of Welk, will roll out a new sales strategy as soon as they can.
It was still nearly $20/pt, and sales stated the points MF is about $1/ pt.  In their printed info, several months old,  there are the equivalent of approx 92 full year units in the trust. About the size of Pinon Point, so about 10-12 resorts worth are not in trust. Avg point value/ unit is almost 1800.

We own 2 developer Vistana units ( 1 retro'ed) , and even tho' developer, will most likely have to pay to play in any Marriott-Vistana overlay program. I dislike the Marriott skim, however it is probably a little more benefit of the 2 points trust programs


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## Tucsonadventurer

We briefly considered it as the 3 Hyatt weeks we own start in different months  June Oct and and Jan. Having all the points consolidated is a plus. That being said we mainly use exchanges into Maui, Breckinridge, and Siesta Key  with onlly short trips to Pinon Pointe. The points program doesnt have the inventory for our favored resorts


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## Texx

Attended an owners updated last week.  The representative emphasized the availability and flexibility of the Portfolio Program.  He then signed into our account, and his account (with portfolio), and showed us the additional availability of units in various locales under the Portfolio Program.  I don't know how he did it, but there was significant more availability in certain locations, including in Colorado under his login. Did not run a search for Hawaii weeks. 

Said that HRC will not have access to Welk resorts.

Indicated that Portfolio members could rent their weeks, and gave some examples.  I know these presentations are spin--but the presentation was well done. Offered points around 21 bucks with point prices supposed to up shortly.  Said the trade in response from HRC to exhange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming. Said that HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point.


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## Kal

$13,000 gets you entry into the Portfolio Program with 600 points.


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## dsmrp

Texx said:


> Attended an owners updated last week.  The representative emphasized the availability and flexibility of the Portfolio Program.  He then signed into our account, and his account (with portfolio), and showed us the additional availability of units in various locales under the Portfolio Program.  I don't know how he did it, but there was significant more availability in certain locations, including in Colorado under his login. Did not run a search for Hawaii weeks.
> 
> Said that HRC will not have access to Welk resorts.
> 
> Indicated that Portfolio members could rent their weeks, and gave some examples.  I know these presentations are spin--but the presentation was well done. Offered points around 21 bucks with point prices supposed to up shortly.  Said the trade in response from HRC to exhange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming. Said that HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point.



We got pretty much the same presentation a couple of months ago.  Same price at around $20.50 something a point, 660 pts minimum. MF for those points was in vicinity of $750.  I think our guy said HRC could see HPP too, but don't remember how far in advance.  I think the weeks he pulled up for Colorado were summer - fall weeks.

We bought and rescinded. In the material we got, I looked at the points, # of weeks I the trust. It calculated to an average value of about 1875 per week. Hardly any Pinon Pt in trust. A lot of Windward Pt, Wild Oak, and smaller #s of other Key West, and Carmel.
Of course the info was several months old, so could have changed a little.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Texx said:


> Attended an owners updated last week.  The representative emphasized the availability and flexibility of the Portfolio Program.  He then signed into our account, and his account (with portfolio), and showed us the additional availability of units in various locales under the Portfolio Program.  I don't know how he did it, but there was significant more availability in certain locations, including in Colorado under his login. Did not run a search for Hawaii weeks.
> 
> Said that HRC will not have access to Welk resorts.
> 
> Indicated that Portfolio members could rent their weeks, and gave some examples.  I know these presentations are spin--but the presentation was well done. Offered points around 21 bucks with point prices supposed to up shortly.  Said the trade in response from HRC to exhange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming. Said that HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point.


They did a Hawaii search for us using portfolio and club and said look how many more hits in Maui with portfolio. I pointed out that all the portfolio hits were for 1 day all Saturdays and many points for 1 day. Still confused why there would be 1 day availability in Maui though


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## Texx

Tucsonadventurer said:


> They did a Hawaii search for us using portfolio and club and said look how many more hits in Maui with portfolio. I pointed out that all the portfolio hits were for 1 day all Saturdays and many points for 1 day. Still confused why there would be 1 day availability in Maui though


The Maui one day is interesting and perplexing. Our sales agent said they had Maui weeks available for HPP—not sure that means HRC members in Hawaii exchanged their weeks or if actual weeks are in trust. What was clear to me after the presentation is that Marriott is committed to HPP for at least the time being.


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## Sapper

My understanding, based mostly on threads here on TUG, is there are no Maui units in the trust. What you are seeing is people gaming the system by enrolling their owned Maui week, then using six of the seven days. This knocks the 2200 point week down to something like 1320 points for six days.


----------



## Texx

Sapper said:


> My understanding, based mostly on threads here on TUG, is there are no Maui units in the trust. What you are seeing is people gaming the system by enrolling their owned Maui week, then using six of the seven days. This knocks the 2200 point week down to something like 1320 points for six days.


Awe. Brilliant.  When they ran the search for Aspen there were a number of single days available on HPP.  Sounds like the same thing may be happening there?


----------



## Sapper

Texx said:


> Awe. Brilliant.  When they ran the search for Aspen there were a number of single days available on HPP.  Sounds like the same thing may be happening there?


Probably. It could also be regular HRC members booking the six day availability. Inside of six months, we (HRC folk) have the same ability to book six day HPP stays.


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## travelhacker

Texx said:


> Awe. Brilliant.  When they ran the search for Aspen there were a number of single days available on HPP.  Sounds like the same thing may be happening there?


That could be the case. However, there is a decent amount of aspen inventory in HPP. If I had HPP I would always book the 6 night stays, so my guess is that for a lot of those it's the HPP members being smart about their membership.


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## travelhacker

Sapper said:


> Probably. It could also be regular HRC members booking the six day availability. Inside of six months, we (HRC folk) have the same ability to book six day HPP stays.


I have done this for Hyatt Coconut Plantation a few times. It was great. I really didn't miss that seventh night and saved a bundle of points. I did feel a little bad, but not bad enough to not do it.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Sapper said:


> My understanding, based mostly on threads here on TUG, is there are no Maui units in the trust. What you are seeing is people gaming the system by enrolling their owned Maui week, then using six of the seven days. This knocks the 2200 point week down to something like 1320 points for six days.


So if someone who owned in Maui put 1 day in portfolio they could book the rest of their 6 days of their week for 1320 pts? Or do they put their whole week in portfolio and exchange in. I am confused how this works


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## dmelcher13

Tucsonadventurer said:


> So if someone who owned in Maui put 1 day in portfolio they could book the rest of their 6 days of their week for 1320 pts? Or do they put their whole week in portfolio and exchange in. I am confused how this works



They would have put the whole week in portfolio at which point they’d have a near zero chance of being able to rebook that exact deposit with portfolio points less the one day. I’d assume some other lucky portfolio owner snaps it up with a request list.

Beyond me why on Earth a Maui owner would convert their week to portfolio in the first place.


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## bradj

Texx said:


> Attended an owners updated last week.  The representative emphasized the availability and flexibility of the Portfolio Program.  He then signed into our account, and his account (with portfolio), and showed us the additional availability of units in various locales under the Portfolio Program.  I don't know how he did it, but there was significant more availability in certain locations, including in Colorado under his login. Did not run a search for Hawaii weeks.
> 
> Said that HRC will not have access to Welk resorts.
> 
> Indicated that Portfolio members could rent their weeks, and gave some examples.  I know these presentations are spin--but the presentation was well done. Offered points around 21 bucks with point prices supposed to up shortly.  Said the trade in response from HRC to exhange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming. Said that HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point.


Texx, Based on your post about your owner update, I've only got one thing to say: RUN, FORREST, RUN! Before considering the "flexability" of the HPP, do some homework on the resale. Availability? Good luck with that. Popular seasonal locations, nearly impossible with HPP, or no inventory available at all. As far as HRC exchanging points into HPP being "overwhelming," your rep ought to be in jail for perjury. With a concurrent sentence for highway robbery. With HPP points being so expensive, my opinion would be to buy a deeded week resale somewhere you might want to stay at on Redweek. Other times, use those points to trade within the Hyatt Residence Club  system. Save yourself a boatload of money. I think you've gotten a lot of real bad information.


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## Texx

bradj said:


> Texx, Based on your post about your owner update, I've only got one thing to say: RUN, FORREST, RUN! Before considering the "flexability" of the HPP, do some homework on the resale. Availability? Good luck with that. Popular seasonal locations, nearly impossible with HPP, or no inventory available at all. As far as HRC exchanging points into HPP being "overwhelming," your rep ought to be in jail for perjury. With a concurrent sentence for highway robbery. With HPP points being so expensive, my opinion would be to buy a deeded week resale somewhere you might want to stay at on Redweek. Other times, use those points to trade within the Hyatt Residence Club  system. Save yourself a boatload of money. I think you've gotten a lot of real bad information.


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## Texx

Brad.  Thanks for your comments.  Definitely not biting on the puffery, but the thing I am struggling with was when the sales agent ran a search on both my HRC account and his account which had portfolio.  His account pulled up 30 to 40 vacancies in Aspen and my HRC showed none.

I had a response to all his other half truths, but not the search.


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## bradj

Texx said:


> Brad.  Thanks for your comments.  Definitely not biting on the puffery, but the thing I am struggling with was when the sales agent ran a search on both my HRC account and his account which had portfolio.  His account pulled up 30 to 40 vacancies in Aspen and my HRC showed none.
> 
> I had a response to all his other half truths, but not the search.


Only believe what you can personally verify. I've been a HRC owner (previously HVC) for over 20 years. Gone through a lot of changes.  HPP is not a good one. The $21 points have virtually no established resale value at all. Deeded weeks do, and you can buy a deeded week with points for a multiple of many, many times less. Lots of Platinum (2000) and Diamond (2200) points available in the low to mid $1000s. With many in good locations and seasons. Recommended realtors listed on various threads on this site might be helpful if you were interested in a purchase.  They also would likely reinforce the pitfalls of HPP. I found two of my resales myself several years back on E bay. Many resales available on multiple web sites since Covid.


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## Sapper

Texx said:


> Brad.  Thanks for your comments.  Definitely not biting on the puffery, but the thing I am struggling with was when the sales agent ran a search on both my HRC account and his account which had portfolio.  His account pulled up 30 to 40 vacancies in Aspen and my HRC showed none.
> 
> I had a response to all his other half truths, but not the search.



Was The availability for more than six months in the future?  If so, that is the reason. HPP has units in Aspen.


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## Texx

Sapper said:


> Was The availability for more than six months in the future?  If so, that is the reason. HPP has units in Aspen.


Yes.  It was over Presidents weekend.  That would explain it.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Texx said:


> Brad.  Thanks for your comments.  Definitely not biting on the puffery, but the thing I am struggling with was when the sales agent ran a search on both my HRC account and his account which had portfolio.  His account pulled up 30 to 40 vacancies in Aspen and my HRC showed none.
> 
> I had a response to all his other half truths, but not the search.


Aspen is in the PP program but we get in with club points at 6 mos and if not we get into Breckenridge. Most of the resorts in PP seem to have a lot of openings in club as well


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## bdh

Texx said:


> Attended an owners updated last week. The representative emphasized the availability and flexibility of the Portfolio Program. He then signed into our account, and his account (with portfolio), and showed us the additional availability of units in various locales under the Portfolio Program. I don't know how he did it, but there was significant more availability in certain locations, including in Colorado under his login. Did not run a search for Hawaii weeks.
> 
> Said that HRC will not have access to Welk resorts.
> 
> Indicated that Portfolio members could rent their weeks, and gave some examples. I know these presentations are spin--but the presentation was well done. Offered points around 21 bucks with point prices supposed to up shortly. Said the trade in response from HRC to exchange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming. Said that HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point.



Portfolio Program has a boat load of trust units/inventory at select resorts (Windward, Coconut, Wild Oak, Aspen and Highlands Inn) - however Portfolio has limited trust units/inventory at other resorts (Sunset Harbor, Beach House, High Sierra  and Sedona) - no trust units/inventory at Maui, Siesta Key and Puerto Rico - will pick up a fair number of trust units/inventory at Northstar once Welk is integrated into Hyatt.  The key in the HPP sales pitch regarding availability is to search at locations that HPP has lots of units in the trust and to limit the search window to 6 months out.  By limiting the search to 6 months out, any HPP owned unit that still "fresh" (is within 6 months of issuance of its points) will be blocked from view.  Similar to how HRC legacy owners have priority with their deeded week during the 6 month HRPP window, HPP has priority for 6 months of each week's points issuance date.  *Once HRC and HPP units have aged 6 months from issuance of their respective points, it becomes open season as both HRC and HPP have equal access to each other’s system.   *

Regarding "_HRC will not have access to Welk resorts_".  Yes/No - depending on what scenario is used to define access, the sales staff did totally lie. The Welk properties are 75% Trust/Points and 25% Deeded/Legacy.  Once Welk Trust and Legacy weeks are integrated into the Hyatt program, it will be the same as the current HRC vs HPP access scenario. Points owners will have priority to Trust weeks for the first 6 months of the week's life - and Deeded week owners will have the same priority for their legacy weeks for the first 6 months of the week's life.  *Once HRC and HPP units have aged 6 months from issuance of their respective points, it becomes open season as both HRC and HPP have equal access to each other’s system.  *

Regarding_ "the trade in response from HRC to exchange weeks into portfolio has been overwhelming". _ I'm going to throw the BS card on this one.  Based on what I've heard from HRC owners that have attended the HPP sales pitch, the vast majority (90%) have not bought into HPP.  And the few that did buy into HPP that I've talked to have been disappointed in the HPP program. Note that I have talked to one HRC/HPP owner that says HPP is working great for them. *While HPP has merit for some people, very few of them have been showing up here on TUG as the majority of HPP posts have been on the negative side.  *

Regarding "_HRC can only see portfolio listings on a temporary basis and they would be cut off at some point_".  I say this is TOTAL BS.  While HPP has a lot of weeks in the Trust, there are also a boat load of Deeded/Legacy weeks that HPP wants/needs access to.  *Cutting off Deeded/Legacy access is "Pointless". AKA: Stupid. *


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## bdh

Sapper said:


> My understanding, based mostly on threads here on TUG, is there are no Maui units in the trust. What you are seeing is people gaming the system by enrolling their owned Maui week, then using six of the seven days. This knocks the 2200 point week down to something like 1320 points for six days.



There is a points premium on the 3 short stay (includes a Saturday night) in HRC.  Since HPP can book any number of days, HPP took the Saturday point premium to a new point value level!  I'm not sure of the MO behind the crazy HPP Saturday point value - but I'd love to hear it.


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> There is a points premium on the 3 short stay (includes a Saturday night) in HRC.  Since HPP can book any number of days, HPP took the Saturday point premium to a new point value level!  I'm not sure of the MO behind the crazy HPP Saturday point value - but I'd love to hear it.


I have no idea what the individuals who designed HPP were thinking (on a variety of things). I just know there is the ability to game the system using it.


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## ivywag

Sapper said:


> Probably. It could also be regular HRC members booking the six day availability. Inside of six months, we (HRC folk) have the same ability to book six day HPP stays.


I took a look at all remaining inventory at HSL for the remainder of the summer—through Sept.30, 2021—end of the highly sought after summer season.  All 6 available units were 1 night Portfolio units. June-September are high season at HSL so the Portfolio Program is impacting inventory.  Also, on a different topic, while staying at Hyatt Northstar last week we attended a Welk sales presentation.  The sales ”closer” said that 63,000 Welk owners are “chomping at the bit” to get their hands on the Hyatt inventory.  He said that there will be a “mass invasion!”  Of course, he had no further information but didn’t think that anything would change for the next 18 months.


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