# Quintess/Duo



## TCREA

Any word on Quintess in general and Duo in particular? Members -- are you happy with their Club? Duo members...have you started using the properties? Why did you join?

Thanks.


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## TCREA

Bump.

No one has any information about Quintess?? On this entire Board?


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## Kagehitokiri2

*SciFrog* is a member.

*EOD* resigned over holiday changes.

amangani, la samanna, canouan are very unique offerings amongst DCs.


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## SciFrog

Homes are amazing (location, size, furniture, housekeeping)
Service is top notch
Hosts are great in general
Company looks financially solid because of their main investor still putting money in the club
Booking rules and system is better than ER (ie not booking beyond 1.5 years)
The handling of the 2008 crisis was done well despite the big changes that were necessary 

Resignation list is bigger than one would like, although new members have a reset list, so might not be an issue
Availability is tight, especially for prime properties and holidays. 

All that said, I might try to resign anyway. My children are getting older and vacation is becoming an issue, seeing we don't have a holiday plan. Also we don't want to compromise on destination anymore (ie going to a specific place). 

Quintess would be ideal with a home-member ratio under 5, something no club offers, even at a higher price point.


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## Kagehitokiri2

do you know if EOD and others with similar travel habits would also be interested in a higher end option?


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## Buon Viaggio

The 2 year reservation policy at ER is actually a big plus.  There's been some discussion lately at ER to change it but members overwhelmingly prefer having the 2 year window.  The cancellation system works so well that it isn't really a problem booking so far out and it actually reduces competition.  It is a temporary issue for brand new members but even then most of them end up utilizing other members' cancellations.


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## SciFrog

Q also has a system like that, but it doesn't seem as automated. The two year reservation system was deal breaker for me, and already was annoyed when Q went from 1 to 1.5, but everyone is different. My friend that is an ER member was also annoyed by the two year scheme, you might not even know the vacation of your kids that far ahead...

One word on pricing, if you compare to going to a hotel and get a 2-3 bedroom place, the savings are huge. 8 days in Vail or in St Martin pays for my 30 Q nights. And this is at today's rates, imagine what it will be in a few years. Of course renting can be cheaper, but it is not comparable, we don't rent homes.


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## Kagehitokiri2

Q >


> on March 1, 2011, there will be an annual dues increase of 5.5% per Base Plan night for all new memberships.



but not for existing members?

i really dont get why this is so muddled.

(current dues divided by nights) and (new dues divided by nights) and (nights divided by reservations) 

10 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 5
20 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 5
30 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 4.3
40 - 1134.38 / 1196.77 / 5
50 - 1120.00 / 1181.60 / 5
60 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 4.3


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## SciFrog

Duo is adding two properties at the Ritz Vail. That is a score IMHO, as even if the RC location is not that great, thus not suitable for Quintess, it works for Duo.


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## Kagehitokiri2

impressive.

http://www.theresidencesvail.com/
2-6BR, currently $1.75MM > $9MM 
26 out of 81 unavailable on floorplans, but only says >
3 sold - 2BR, 4BR, 6BR
2 under contract - 2BR, 4BR 
always painful - back on 9/14/2007, 46 out of 71 under contract >
http://web.archive.org/web/20071214...cesvail.com/Ritz/residences.availability.aspx
current prices down 13% > 24% (average 20%)

...

2/3BR fractionals are being rented http://www.ritzcarlton.com/en/Properties/Vail/Default.htm


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## willmyclubmakeit

*duo*

I like the RC Vail addition although there is a $100/night up charge.   Great location and option though.  As to the rate increase isn't this what UE and other clubs often used to get people off their sofa and join?  Too bad the rate increases didn't always happen or stick.  I guess we will find out next month.  I also noticed that demeure is providing more attractive offers....I bet there is more supply than demand.   Maybe they will attract more of us as the market continues to evolve.  I hope so.


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## EOD

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> do you know if EOD and others with similar travel habits would also be interested in a higher end option?



The answer is yes and no for me.   I think quality of homes and service for much of the Q portfolio is fine.  Lots of homes in great resorts: amangani, canouan, la samanna.  Then places like Tuscany, big island are standalone spectacular.  Access to fairmont in big island is ok, but not wow. Cabo less exciting but good for family trip.   The real issue for me is location.   The dc concept is great, but I still want to be traveling to places other than north America and Europe.  That's the hole in the model for me.   Q adding some experiences in Africa which look nice but I am much more likely to do that outside Q.   For me, if I were on west coast I might look to one of the Asia offerings to fill in but have done zero research on it.


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## SciFrog

Besides adding St barts, which is very expensive, Q homes are already very high end, in both location and quality. What I would like is a lower member/home ratio, under 5/1 maybe. 

EOD, they need to stick with north america/europe, hard to add a very exotic destination unless through exchange programs which Q tries to do.


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## Kagehitokiri2

*SciFrog*, why do they need to stick to north america/europe?


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## SciFrog

Shorter/easier travel, less hassle while in the country, and better safety.


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## Kagehitokiri2

so even though thats not your historical travel pattern, your only real issue is 5:1 etc ratio with 1/few plan types?


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## EOD

I don't think you can make a club that has the diversity of travel locations to satisfy everyone.  For example, here are some places I'd like to visit in the next few years:  

South Africa
Argentina and Chile (patagonia)
Palau 
Maldives (again)


South Africa we will do when boys are older.  Argentina/chile next jan/feb.  Palau, maybe on my own.  Maldives whenever.

So you take your average DC member: 1. they have limited interest in international travel (outside of Europe)   2.  They travel in packs (more than one family usually in the home)  3.  They don't have a big travel budget (lot of cancellations at Q for Canouan home as people can't stomach airfare.)

The next level up would almost require a low home ratio because we would all demand peak availability and not every location would be cheaply, easily accessible so not everyone goes everywhere.

So, the real question is not if the next step up should exist, but what would it be. I don't think more luxurious is the bogey at all--just location.  The ideal would be 2-3 regional clubs with true global exchange among them. A Pac Rim club that can exchange with Q for example would go a long way.   Then you could have Kyoto, HK, Bali, Thailand, Maldives, India, Vietnam, etc.  Q came close with oyster circle and then the two resorts in bali  and thailand.   I don't sense demand for Asia was all that high though.  

Final alternative is to make one global club with china , japan , singapore members.  That's seems like a lot of work though.


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## Kagehitokiri2

*EOD*, i agree re locations. i think there is a market for it, at least if residences possible at aman, FS, etc. 

i also agree with *SciFrog* re ratios. i think the ideal situation would be to have a single membership type. not sure how i feel about exchanges.

btw if youre doing atacama too, check out awasi - private excursions.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*locations*

Q has some interesting locations in Asia as mentioned and also has some options for kenya or south africa trips which seems to be competitive with AK and ER.   I think some of these travel options maybe a more economical way to extend the reach of a club, and utilize members travel commitment, beyond the club homes.   Personally I don't think it makes a lot of economic sense to purchase homes a great distance from members geographic concentration in the states as they would have low occupancy and therefore be money losers.   If there was a rental option similar to the travel program it could work but it must be tough to balance a club's preference to utilize members dues to fund their fixed investment in homes vs. paying third parties for travel programs or usage of rental locations---unless that is the cost of acquiring members in a competitive environment--but things have to be economically sustainable or we will wind up as we did when some of us were members of UE.  I bet people are going into the situations with more open eyes as to the benefits and risks--but if you value the experience there is a price that fits what a member receives relative to the risk==Michael Miliken taught us this didn't he when he figured out how to price high yield debt and that created an industry in itself?  I hope a solution for members and the clubs work out.


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## TarheelTraveler

http://www.destinationclubnews.com/News_Why_Did_DUO_Not_Introduce_A_Dues_Only_Membership.php

First, I agree with the overall statement as to why DUO did not introduce a dues only membership - 

"First and foremost, we wanted to develop something that was sustainable," he said. "We didn't feel that with all the factors that it would make sense for us to offer a dues only membership option. We are also cognizant that anything we introduced would need to be an attractive option. If we did a dues only membership, it would need to be sustainable and would require a much, much higher annual dues rate, which we believed wouldn't be attractive to Ultimate Escapes members....

What we want is to secure attractive real estate that can be put to use for years. " 

However, what I don't understand is how only 15K per membership is supposed to make a difference on the sustainability front.  So with 7 members, you've brought in $105K (that's before sales costs even).  At the touted $2M, you've brought in around 5% of the cost, and assuming any kind of financing or opportunity cost, you've only cut the annual dues cost for a member by about $1,000 if the interest rate is around 6% or 7%.

What am I missing?  I understand why you would need to bring in several hundred thousand dollars per member in order to buy real estate or why you'd have higher dues to cover the debt, but what's the point of bringing in 15K.   How does that make any significant difference from a sustainability front?


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## willmyclubmakeit

agree but it probably helps psychologically getting alignment behind longer term memberships while also providing some limited funding for leases or interest.  The key for the initial financing has to be the investor and the first members joining just provide some cash flow to cover operating costs (hopefully) and building momentum to build out a club--we all have seen the clubs are not self-sustaining like most businesses when they are started but hopefully for the investors and members grow into more balanced models in the future.   From someone considering joining Duo's perspective, I recognize there more risk to the model at this stage of the game, but the size of the deposit reduces the damage of that risk significantly (at least from what we experienced at UE).   AK is obviously much more conservative but it also has issues with filling is membership and releasing the homes from Dev Co and growing its number of locations and at the same time requires a six figure buy in.  I have not found a perfect model.  The least financially risky and least expensive is renting properties at present; however, its also the most frustrating and time consuming.   Like everything in life there are advantages and disadvantages to balance.   Should I dive in a second time? I think there is enough water in the pool to cushion the fall.  I will retain my user name though.


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## Kagehitokiri2

Q investor >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=999075&postcount=1090


SciFrog said:


> the investor pays for the debt interest


3 conservative >
rocksure funds are mostly small, with no debt
luxus has no debt
AK has 5% debt cap
(also no leases/etc)


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## TarheelTraveler

I guess I'm just not a big fan of the non-equity clubs.  Either I want to put up no deposit and just use a portfolio of homes that are essentially leased, probably paying somewhat more in dues.  Or I want to put up money to own a fractional interest in the real estate, which presumably means I would pay lower dues.  The notion of paying a deposit to use someone else's portfolio of homes seems ridiculous to me, when all I end up with is the promise that I will have homes at my disposal.  At least with DUO, the 15K is low enough to where it's easier to justify the risk.

Did anyone ever get the membership documents?  Are you obligated to pay a certain amount of dues each year?  If you resign, do you still have to pay dues until they can bring in 3 new members at the appropriate buy ins to redeem out a UE member?


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## Kagehitokiri2

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> (current dues divided by nights) and (new dues divided by nights) and (nights divided by reservations)
> 
> 10 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 5
> 20 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 5
> 30 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 4.3
> 40 - 1134.38 / 1196.77 / 5
> 50 - 1120.00 / 1181.60 / 5
> 60 - 1177.50 / 1242.26 / 4.3



now even, but huge increase

14 $1425
21 $1425
28 $1425
+7 $1425
$1250 space available...

duo is not even >

14 ?
21 $816.67
28 $812.50
+7 $800
$775 space available...


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## TarheelTraveler

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> now even, but huge increase
> 
> 14 $1425
> 21 $1425
> 28 $1425
> +7 $1425
> $1250 space available...
> 
> duo is not even >
> 
> 14 ?
> 21 $816.67
> 28 $812.50
> +7 $800
> $775 space available...



Wow. That's a huge increase in per night cost.  Seems like it would be hard to compete at those rates.

Anything happen with existing member dues or does that only impact new members?

Interesting that DUO, Tour Club and Quintess have been folded into one on the website. I guess if you're increasing the cost, it's smart to show lesser expensive alternatives.


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## SciFrog

Q raised dues by 3.5%, a tad less than their max allowed this year Of 3.7%...


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## Kagehitokiri2

SciFrog said:


> Q raised dues by 3.5%, a tad less than their max allowed this year Of 3.7%...


so no standardization? bizarre...

sales pricing >
back to back 5.5% then 14.7% > 20.5% 
for a total of 21% > 27.2%


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## SciFrog

Actually the total increase is less as the occupancy fee has not increased. No standardization as the sales price has the occupancy fee built in.


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## Kagehitokiri2

odd they didnt change existing contracts. IIRC they briefly offered complimentary space available, wonder if theyre still honoring. assuming of course that they sold some of them.

http://quintess.com/destinations/view_availability shows properties with 75+ days avail

these are the ones that are not shown >

hawaii - kolea ke aloha
maui - loa's lani
naples - villa bella
south beach - villa patricia
st martin - pelican, fregate, egrette
bend - sunset sage
kiawah - 48 ocean course
deer valley - blacktail

not sure why pronghorn and pelican hill (both tour club) dont have avail like other hotels


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## willmyclubmakeit

*availability*

I am glad that the good news re: Q/Duo availability is now public.  I don't know why the duo properties are not listed but all of the properties you inquired about have the same terrific (for new members at least) availability on the duo side except Stowe. I'm staying at the Jackson and Vail properties in July and can report more after the trips.  Its been refreshing as to how easy it has been to book properties when one wants to travel.

Tour club does not show real time availability on the website but I would imagine there is pretty good availability too as Q saved my Pronghorn trip last year after UE blew up.


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## Kagehitokiri2

so which duo get to use Q? IIRC its 2 > 1 and Q is 2 > 3.

to confirm, youre saying these 3 that are on site >
jackson hole - crystal springs 206
vail - ritz carlton club 128, 228
have more than 75 nights avail?


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## willmyclubmakeit

*duo*

loads of availability on all Duo properties at present.
Look at new Q collection for exchange provisions but you have it right.
Great to have options.


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## SciFrog

You need to pay $20k for using the other club. 
No, thank you.

They also change the terms of your claim in a liquidation, your claim drops by 5% a year if you update and sign a new agreement. In counterpart, the day you wish to "resale" you get a fixed % that was in your contract (75% these days?) of the current future value, ie potential appreciation... I already had that...


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## Kagehitokiri2

willmyclubmakeit said:


> all of the properties you inquired about have the same terrific (for new members at least) availability on the duo side except Stowe.



how many nights for stowe?



willmyclubmakeit said:


> Tour club does not show real time availability on the website but I would imagine there is pretty good availability too as Q saved my Pronghorn trip last year after UE blew up.



5 out of 7 hotels show avail (3 tour club and 2 karma)
2 tour club hotels dont for some reason (pronghorn, pelican hill)


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## willmyclubmakeit

*inquiry*

i do not know how many nights are available and suspect stowe was not listed as it is likely a rental with a lease renewal during this period given what is and is not shown on the calendar.  To be clear there is very good availability for stowe also through mid november (i would guesstimate 50% availability so a prospective member could easily travel there in summer or any season).   I do not know more than that and i would suggest asking a club representative as i do not travel to Stowe personally but understand the resort has a new brewery on site so maybe I should visit.


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## TarheelTraveler

SciFrog said:


> You need to pay $20k for using the other club.
> No, thank you.
> 
> They also change the terms of your claim in a liquidation, your claim drops by 5% a year if you update and sign a new agreement. In counterpart, the day you wish to "resale" you get a fixed % that was in your contract (75% these days?) of the current future value, ie potential appreciation... I already had that...



Definitely seems like a good call, especially if the options are going from Quintess to DUO and/or The Tour Club.  However, seems like they'd want Quintess members going in those directions to free up availability in Quintess and increase occupancy in DUO and the Tour Club.  In other words, seems like you'd charge money going the other direction (i.e., to upgrade), but not to downgrade to a lower level.  It's nice for members to have additional options.  

Didn't UE also reduce the value of a member's claim each year presumably in order to book the membership deposit as revenue?  Seems like it would provide an incentive for the main investor to keep funding the club, but also an incentive to shut it down once the liquidation value is low enough, since he could keep that much more of the proceeds.  Are there any limitations in the agreement that would prevent a liquidation?  I remember people screaming bloody murder about that provision with UE.  At the end of the day, it doesn't look like it matters with UE, but it certainly would matter if the investor decided to liquidate (rather than being forced into bankrupcty with secured debts in excess of assets).

Nice article on Sherpa discussing the changes:

http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/quintess-collection-launch-0511.html


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## Kagehitokiri2

willmyclubmakeit said:


> there is very good availability for stowe also through mid november (i would guesstimate 50% availability



rental eh. maybe similar situations with pronghorn and pelican hill for that matter.

so Q doesnt have a similar thing on members site for avail. thats one thing DHH did, was actually have a full list of avail. not just over a certain number of nights. for each year too IIRC. seems like its easy enough to do, so id think all clubs should do it.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*Q Duo*

full calendars are available for the year to all members--not number of nights--but full transparent view of availability for each individual property other than tour club for rolling 365 day period.


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## Kagehitokiri2

right. not hard for them to have a counter for nights. DHH had this, other clubs should too.


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## willmyclubmakeit

*reply*

why is it important?  I really do not care how many days are available but only care if the days that i want on the calendar are available to be frank.  UE did show occupancy by property so you knew which properties were the most in demand and I think that was valuable for planning where to use holidays and long term reservations or where it would be tough to get in without some planning, but the # of nights open in the next 12 months doesn't mean a lot to me to be honest.  to each his own.


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## Kagehitokiri2

frankly, im a metrics guy. the validity of comparison matters less to me than the comparison. (of data.)

like club signups. clearly that is something that is comparable, even with deferred plans. but the clubs have apparently moved away from this to a certain degree. resignation lists...?

but my main point was how easy it is to do this, and they did it on the public site. my question is why not finish it? because not doing it leads me to believe they have a reason for not doing it, which i always wonder about. with Q im only talking about the incomplete data. with other clubs, i dont know which do what. just saying that DHH had the right idea, and the simplicity makes it a why not to me.


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## SciFrog

Kage, I don't thInk anyone cares about how many nights are booked in the future. All you care about is your specific dates...

I guess you are right about liquidation, but frankly with the level of nightly dues, the club is worth more than just the properties... Especially now with 3 clubs. A forced liquidation with a very strong real estate prices doesn't seem to make sense as members would the be pouring in, especially knowing your exit price now rises with increasing deposit values...


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## Kagehitokiri2

if "no one" cares, then why did Q make a public page that is like what DHH had? and why did DHH do it? 

when i mentioned signups and resignation lists, i was just talking metrics in general for all clubs, not about liquidation or Q.



Kagehitokiri2 said:


> [Q] bend - sunset sage [4BR pronghorn single family residence]
> 
> [tour club] pronghorn [3BR multifamily hotel residence]



surprising to see bend (not tour club) with 75 or less nights - lots of locals?


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## willmyclubmakeit

*q*

the why show is probably so prospective members just surfing the net can see what availability could be like.  I would always suggest if someone contemplates membership to see what is available for dates that work for you personally though.   Information on site is probably accurate but I think irrelevant.

As for Bend, I do not know but suspect its mostly used for tour club visits to supplement the Pronghorn Club Properties, and will be disposed, lease not renewed, or transferred into Tour Club full time.   I do not see any availability there after October so that must be why it does not meet your availability test (but plenty of availability in September/October).


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## Kagehitokiri2

willmyclubmakeit said:


> will be disposed, lease not renewed, or transferred...do not see any availability there after October



ah, thanks for clarifying, sorry if i misunderstood.


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## SciFrog

I should have said current members don't care...


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## Truthonly

*Quintess*

Wondering if anyone knows what the current financial conditions are at Quintess? They seem to lack transparency and there is no sense of how they have dealt with their resignation lists. Does anyone know of any pending lawsuits or member coalitions to force them to honor their express or implied warranties?


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## willmyclubmakeit

*transparency*

I am not sure why anyone would claim Q is not transparent. The financial statements have never been pretty but are always posted for each quarter on the member website/clubhouse.  Annual financial statements are also audited by a big 4 firm and also posted.


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