# [2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged]



## SDKath

SDKath’s Guide to getting from 0 to 5* for Less

*(Please note that the Staroptions required for Elite status changed after the original article was written, and the numbers below are current as of March 13, 2012.  When other numbers are mentioned in the text, please refer to the numbers directly below this statement. If they change again, I will promptly update the figures  below, to minimize confusion.   DeniseM Moderator]*

*3 Star Elite = Interval ownership equivalent to at least 159,000 StarOptions

4 Star Elite = Interval ownership equivalent to at least 359,000 StarOptions

5 Star Elite = Interval ownership equivalent to at least 649,000 StarOptions*​
There are many different reasons to purchase (so many) TSs.  One person’s goal is not necessarily another’s.  Have a clear goal in mind before “investing” time and money.  And don’t forget the impact of MFs on your plan, which will have to be paid year after year, long after the “deals” are made.  To remain 5*, you cannot dip below 559,000 SOs, so your MFs will always be high (about $5000-$8000/year).
Here are a few reasons to become 5*:
1)	I have a lot of free time and can vacation relatively easily.  In this case, purchase where you want to go.  This will eliminate the uncertainty of trading (via SVN or II) and will guarantee your happiness in case the system changes (or is devalued) in the future.​2)	I want to travel the world, I like the StarPoint system.  Many folks here on TUG say this is a bad reason to go after 5* but I completely disagree.  Using SPs to travel via the vast Starwood hotel network is a fantastic opportunity.  You can stay as many days as you want, unlike the 7 day fix with TSing.  You will be upgraded MOST of the time (no guarantees anymore) and some world class hotels are at your fingertip year after year.  Europe is also well represented and going to Europe on US$ is not cheap these days!  Plus, for every 20,000 SPs, you get 25,000 frequent flier miles.  And as 5*, your SP conversion gets an automatic 10% bonus.  That’s a great deal!  In this case, get to 5* with the cheapest resorts possible (like me) and then convert to SPs or SOs.  Look at the chart in the owner’s sticky of the current developer prices.  It has the SPs listed.  Some Orlando units come with very few SPs so try avoid those if this is your goal.  I use the rule of thumb that about 20,000 SPs is one night of stay in a nice hotel.  Some are more, some are less, but this is a good estimate.​3)	I want to rent most of my units and travel only occasionally.  In this case, purchase at the highest demand rental locations.  This includes prime ski weeks, Hawaii, St John and Harborside.  Avoid Orlando as most weeks don’t even rent for their MFs.  SBP rents well in the summer.  The desert properties and PGA rent well in the spring, especially during spring training or a golf tournament (the Cubs train in Phoenix and the Mets by the PGA!).​4)	I want lots of StarOptions to use via SVN.  Since an SO is an SO is an SO, purchase anyplace cheap with low MFs.  Don’t buy a nice, expensive-view Hawaii property because your 148,100 SOs will be the same as my el cheapo Orlando units but with twice the MFs.​
*So here is my step by step guide* based on the many TUG posts I read and my personal experience completing this whole process just recently.  Use the choices above to select the properties that interest you to make this plan meet your own needs.

1)	Get some cash to play with.  You will need about $25,000 that you can spend right away.  The best is to apply for the Starwood Am Ex card and seek our sellers and closing companies that take it.  That way you get your free SPs too.  Then pay back the card right away if possible.​2)	Look for resale units that are worth 148,100 SOs.  You will need to purchase 2 at least.  This is key because when you “retro” a unit, you need to spend $20,000 with Starwood each time.  You don’t want to retro a 81,000 SO resale because you still end up having to spend the same $20,000.  Might as well get the biggest bang for the buck.  Suggestions for these include:​
a.     SMV ski week (good to rent too) , worth 148,100 SOs.
b.	Lakeside Terrace ski week (also good rental).  These are 129,800 SOs but cost less to buy
c.	WMH platinum week 2BR LO, worth 148,100 SOs
d.	SDO “true platinum” week worth 148,100 SOs (very hard to find)
3)	Buy 2 of these resale units and close on them.  *You need to have them recorded and in your name with Starwood before you can do anything else. * This takes about 2-3 months so prior planning is important.  Starwood cannot retro anything for you until your name is on the unit!  Also, per the newest rules, only 1 retro week per purchase.  Even if you spend $120,000 on an OFD WKORV property, they will only retro 1 unit with the purchase.  You CAN retro an EY week with an EOY purchase from Starwood as long as it's over $20,000.​4)	Optional, extra savings step: Look for a couple of resale units to “upgrade.”  This means you buy a unit inexpensively on resale and Starwood gives you credit for the original purchase price (the price paid by original owner to Starwood).  The units you choose for upgrading have to be in locations that Starwood is actively selling AND have reasonable resales so the choices are limited.  Try to find units that are selling cheap now but were really pricy when first bought.  My PGA 2BR non-LO cost me $500 on ebay but got me $15,000 credit toward a purchase! Options include:​
a.      SBP, which is still actively selling in Palmetto phase
b.	PGA, which allows upgrade to Cascades, it’s sister resort
c.	Some limited WKORV and WKORVN inventory still available
d.	SVV, which can upgrade to the non-M new phases of SVV (the M phases are sold out)
e.	Note that St John takes about a year to close so I would avoid this unit as an upgrade.
f.	Lagunamar cannot be upgraded last I heard due to Mexico ownership rules

Now here is the trick.  The price between your resale unit that you are upgrading and the new purchase from Starwood has to have a price difference of $8000 in Orlando and $10,000 elsewhere.  So if you got $15,000 credit for your PGA resale, the unit you buy from Starwood has to cost $25,000 at least to make it work.  Look at the owner sticky with the current developer prices to help figure out which units would meet this criteria.  For example, if I bought a PGA 2BR LO Platinum on resale ($19,000 original sales price and credit given to me), I would not have been able to upgrade it at all because the price difference would not have been big enough.  I would recommend making an Excel spreadsheet of the different scenarios.

How do you find out what the original purchase price was?  You can ask the seller (and hope he is honest) OR you can work with a good Starwood salesperson who is helping you with your journey to 5*land.  They can look up the prices by unit number and the week it is deeded.  

These upgrade units also have to be closed and in your name before you can do any upgrading.  The resale units above are usually cheap ($500-$3000ish), thankfully.  But it can save you substantial amounts of money.  In the example above, my PGA saved me $14,500!
5)	Now you are ready to go to Starwood and make your purchases.  You need to be armed with your plan and your resale weeks, recorded with Starwood in your name:​
a.	Your 148,100 retro units (2 of them at least)
b.	Your “upgrade units (1-2 of them) if you chose to use this extra savings step

You should have already preselected the units you want to buy from Starwood (since your “upgrade” predetermines how you will be getting the credit).  So you call up your friendly rep and offer to buy the new units and you are done.  They will retro your resale units and upgrade your units at the same time!  This process is a bit of work but can result in substantial savings.

6)	A little known secret is that if you are close to getting 5*, you can have “phantom” SOs for free.  Up to 30,000 SOs will be given to you to get you to your goal.  Many people are just short of 559,000 SOs so this is a nice little deal to know about!​7)	Another little known secret is that you can upgrade one unit multiple times and retro multiple units at the same time.  For example, you can purchase a lower season SBP on resale and upgrade it through Starwood current sales phase 2BR LO (and retro a 148,100 unit at the same time).  Then, you can upgrade the current purchase (2BR LO SBP) to a 3BR LO at SBP (and retro ANOTHER 148,100 unit at the same time)!  This can also be done at SVV, which also has 3BRs for sale, but be careful because inventory is not always readily available.​8)	A word of caution about retroing Hawaii and Caribbean properties:  it appears that you have to spend $40,000 in Starwood purchases to retro one of these units, not $20,000.  So be careful with the numbers.  I would contact Starwood directly to get the latest rules on this.​
Here is an example of a VERY CHEAP upgrade, similar to what I did (total cost around $50,000):

1)	Buy WMH platinum 2BR LO resale worth 148,100 SOs
2)	Buy SDO platinum 2BR LO resale worth 148,100 SOs
3)	Buy PGA resale and upgrade to Cascades 2BR LO, worth 81,000 SOs AND retro WMH
(OR buy SBP resale and upgrade to new phase SBP, worth 96,000 SOs while retroing WMH)
4)	Buy 2 Fountains (selling for cheap right now) for $12,500 each and get 152,000 SOs (76,000x2) AND retro SDO at same time.
Here is an example of a MORE EXPENSIVE but simpler route with 4x 148,100 SO units, no upgrades, cost about $95,000, with more “superstar” properties in your portfolio:

1)	Buy Kierland platinum 2BR LO resale worth 148,100 SOs
2)	Buy WMH platinum 2BR LO resale worth 148,100 SOs
3)	Buy Steamboat 2BR LO (or any other 148,100 SO unit) from Starwood at full price and retro WKV .  Usually comes with lots of SP incentives.
4)	Buy Lagunamar 2BR LO (or any other 148,100 SO unit) and retro WMH.  Again, you’ll get lots of incentive points for your Starwood purchase.

*What if you already own some SOs from previous developer purchases? * Look to see how many SOs you need to get to 5* (559,000).  If it is less than 106,000 SOs, buy one of the Fountains weeks currently for sale for $12,500 and ask for the 30,000 phantom SOs.  That right now is the cheapest way to add SOs via the developer.  No retro will be allowed in this case (price under $20,000) but this is a great deal anyway for those last 100,000 SOs to get you to your goal.

Thank you to Barbra (pointsjunkie) and Maria (myip) for all of their wonderful advice and help in putting this guide together!  								Katherine (SDKath)​


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## GrayFal

You remember the old Seinfeld Episode - where Elaine has to decide who is 'sponge worthy' ? (okay, the kids won't remember or GET this  )

I think this could be 'stickie' worthy :hysterical: !

Well DONE!


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## SDKath

Luv that episode.     Thanks!

Feel free to post comments and suggestions to what I wrote.  I know DUKE for example recommended buying EOY units and retroing resales that way, which also saves a lot of money.

But let's not discuss the merits of 5* on this thread.  That has been discussed a LOT recently in other threads.  Thank you,  Katherine


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## DeniseM

This will definitely be a sticky - well done, Kath!

And yes, let's stick to feedback on Kath's article, in this thread.


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## Ken555

Great info! Nice job, Katherine!


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## nodge

Nice work Katherine!

Given SVO's tendency to amend its rules now and then, would you recommend getting someone at SVO on-board early, even before one's first resale purchases, or do you think these rules will be around a while?

All hail The Queen of working the SVO system.

-nodge


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## SDKath

Thanks!  I got my rep involved early on because I needed to have an idea what was still available for sale.  For example, I originally wanted to upgrade to WKV with a resale unit.  But they are no longer selling them and even when they do have a unit come back, they refuse to give an upgrade credit.  I would not have known this without the help of a good sales rep.  That said, she really couldn't make anything happen in writing until my resales closed completely.  Yes, the rules change quickly, although I have a feeling with the economy changing, they are unlikely to make any major changes in the near future.


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## lprstn

*I am impressed...*

Thanks for walking through the process, as I never understood how to maximize my Starwood with other Starwood properties.  Talk about working the system to maximize your TS...

Coodoos....


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## TUGBrian

let me know if you wanna make this an advice article =)


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## Denise L

*Wow, great job!*

Kath,

Great job on the road to 5* Plat for life!  It makes me want to find some money and try it, just to see if it works  .


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## steve1000

Katherine -

Great information!! Its a real eye-opener! I think many of us will want to consider these strategies further. Thanks so much!


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## ocdb8r

So wait, a question about "upgrading."  If I have a SBP (original phase 2bdrm) I want to upgrade to a 2br lock-off as well as a Vistana Cascades 2bdrm lock-off.  Can my "upgrade" on SBP be used to re-qual Cascades and get both into SVN (even though I may only be spending $10K extra for the upgrade)?

C.


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## Bourne

Katherine, 

For a non SVO owner but a Starpoint and AA miles junkie, could you let me know how many Starpoints you are netting per year based on your personal example.


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## SDKath

ocdb8r said:


> So wait, a question about "upgrading."  If I have a SBP (original phase 2bdrm) I want to upgrade to a 2br lock-off as well as a Vistana Cascades 2bdrm lock-off.  Can my "upgrade" on SBP be used to re-qual Cascades and get both into SVN (even though I may only be spending $10K extra for the upgrade)?
> 
> C.



If I have what you mean correct, then yes.  You have a SBP original phase and will upgrade it to a SBP new phase 2BR LO purchase directly from Starwood.  And at the same time you will retro your Cascades unit that you already own and purchased on resale?  If that's the case, YES.  No problem even though you are only spending $10,000 (the difference in the upgrade price) because the new SBP 2BR LO is more than $20,000.  

Katherine


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## ocdb8r

Wow, thanks so much SDKath.  I always thought you had to SPEND $20K to retro a unit....I only have the SBP right now....off to find a resale week worth 148,100!


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## SDKath

Bourne said:


> Katherine,
> 
> For a non SVO owner but a Starpoint and AA miles junkie, could you let me know how many Starpoints you are netting per year based on your personal example.



I have about 290,000 SPs each year (including the 10% bonus I just learned about -- thanks Duke) and MFs are about $5000 each year.

K


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## DeniseM

OK - I'm Kath's Agent and all book, movie and record offers go through *ME* - understand?   :hysterical:


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## steve1000

> 4) Buy 2 Fountains (selling for cheap right now) for $12,500 each and get 152,000 SOs (76,000x2) AND retro SDO at same time.




Is the number of SOs correct? In looking at MyStar Central it appears that the SOs are either 81,000 for a 2 BR plat week or 67,100 for a 2 BR gold plus week. Which week is selling for $12,500?

Thanks.


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## SDKath

These are the newly "invited into SVN" Fountains units that are selling for $12,500 and the SOs are 76,000 each (2BR only, not LOs).  By the way, if you want to really easily get to 5* and don't mind all Orlando weeks, just buy 7 1/2 of these units and you are there!  That's 7 EY and one EOY unit.  I think it's about $94,000 that way.  The only problem is that you end up with all 2BR Orlando weeks.    On the bright side, the MFs on these units are really nice and low (for now).

Or, buy 4 Fountains and retro a couple units at the same time.  Again, cheap and quick but you need a couple resale units in your name to be able to retro them.  Cost would be about $75,000ish this way.

K


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## Henry M.

Good post, Kath. Clear and concise. Thanks for taking the time to document all this.


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## Transit

Nicely done.


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## LisaRex

I'm not worrrrrrthy!

Great job, Kath!!


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## Cathyb

Kath: I believe when we stay in Starwood hotels (and other timeshare/hotels plans too), we don't pay all the high taxes/fees those hotels add to bills!! In London and Paris, we are talking mega-bucks!!!


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## pointsjunkie

Cathyb said:


> Kath: I believe when we stay in Starwood hotels (and other timeshare/hotels plans too), we don't pay all the high taxes/fees those hotels add to bills!! In London and Paris, we are talking mega-bucks!!!



that's if you pay with starpoints.


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## Gypsie

SDKath said:


> Or, buy 4 Fountains and retro a couple units at the same time.  Again, cheap and quick but you need a couple resale units in your name to be able to retro them.  Cost would be about $75,000ish this way.



Does Starwood allow you to combine purchases (i.e., your multiple Fountains purchases) to reach the $20,000 minimum in order to requal your resale?

Thanks,
Gypsie


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## Gypsie

SDKath said:


> *What if you already own some SOs from previous developer purchases? * Look to see how many SOs you need to get to 5* (559,000).  If it is less than 106,000 SOs, buy one of the Fountains weeks currently for sale for $12,500 and ask for the 30,000 phantom SOs.  That right now is the cheapest way to add SOs via the developer.  No retro will be allowed in this case (price under $20,000) but this is a great deal anyway for those last 100,000 SOs to get you to your goal.



Kath,
Thanks for all this great info. I wish I had known about this before I was only 53,000 SOs short of becoming 5*!

Anyway, one more question.  Do you have to own something other than SVN weeks in order to be eligible for the phantom 30,000 SOs?

Thanks!


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## clsmit

Most excellent post, Katherine! I've printed it out for the DH to read.

As (I think) jerseygirl (really Cleveland southside girl  ) has mentioned, considering the MFs in the total purchase is important in your overall purchase strategy. My DH has created a spreadsheet to calculate $/total cost, including purchase and MFs with some discounted cash flow stuff thrown in, to get a total cost/property. A cheap property isn't cheap if the MFs are high. Getting to 5* requires a chunk of cash; don't blow it with MFs you can't afford.

clsmit
(Cleveland east side chick)
PS lots of OH people on this board because the weather is SOOO bad in the winter we HAVE to leave!!


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## Troopers

Thanks SDKath for the cliff notes.

Robert


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## ocdb8r

Another clarification (thank so much for this thread).  When I "upgrade" can I use the credit for the resort I am trading in toward the purchase of ANY resort, or only toward a higher purchase at the same resort I am trading in?  (i.e. can I trade in a SBP toward a WKORV-N purchase?)

C.


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## SDKath

Only the same resort, or in the case of PGA, Cascades is it's "sister" resort.

And yes, it appears that at Fountains at least, they allowed me to combine 2 purchases of $12,500 to bet to over $20,000 and be able to retro a unit at the same time.  I would also wonder if you owned a resale Fountains week, would you be able to "upgrade" it at the same time?  This is something to ask the Starwood folks because I have a feeling the answer will be no due to the "special price."

Katherine


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## DavidnRobin

I currently have ~222K SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05K SOs)
and 243K SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
for a total of 465.15K SOs.

If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384K SOs - and therefore shy by 175K SOs.

If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465K SOs - and therefore shy by 94K SOs.

Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
How would these phantom SOs work?

{how many oranges will this get me?...}


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## GrayFal

DavidnRobin said:


> I currently have ~222 SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05 SOs)
> and 243 SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
> for a total of 465.15 SOs.
> 
> If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384K SOs - and therefore shy by 175K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465K SOs - and therefore shy by 94K SOs.
> 
> Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
> How would these phantom SOs work?
> 
> {how many oranges will this get me?...}


_....nevermind_


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## pointsjunkie

DavidnRobin said:


> I currently have ~222 SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05 SOs)
> and 243 SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
> for a total of 465.15 SOs.
> 
> If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384 SOs - and therefore shy by 175 SOs.
> 
> If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465 SOs - and therefore shy by 94 SOs.
> 
> Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
> How would these phantom SOs work?
> 
> {how many oranges will this get me?...}



because of what you own the only thing that could possibly be upgraded  is the  WSJ which would cost mega bucks.  there is no upgrade right now at WKV but that might change if they open the 3rd phase.

if you upgrade the wporv i wonder if they would let you requalify a unit at the same time.

the cheapest way is to buy at sheraton vistana beach club or the fountains(but you don't like going to sheraton timeshares). and the rule is buy where you want to go.


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## DavidnRobin

pointsjunkie said:


> because of what you own the only thing that could possibly be upgraded  is the  WSJ which would cost mega bucks.  there is no upgrade right now at WKV but that might change if they open the 3rd phase.
> 
> if you upgrade the wporv i wonder if they would let you requalify a unit at the same time.
> 
> the cheapest way is to buy at sheraton vistana beach club or the fountains(but you don't like going to sheraton timeshares). and the rule is buy where you want to go.



I wasn't looking to upgrade - just to purchase and requal. I agree with the cost of WSJ and WPORV upgrade (not to mention the MFs).  We paid about $24K for WPORV (EOY) - based on duke's post - that same EOY may cost $12K more...)

btw, WSJ does not take a year to close (stated in OP) - ours took about 6 weeks (w/ a gentle push)

I would not buy Vistana Beach or Fountains to go there - only to use SVN/II or the SP conversion (if worth it).


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## VacationPro

Thanks Katherine!

This is a very informative post, even if I don't have any current plans to reach 5*.

How long did the whole process take from start to finish?


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## SDKath

DavidnRobin said:


> I wasn't looking to upgrade - just to purchase and requal. I agree with the cost of WSJ and WPORV upgrade (not to mention the MFs).  We paid about $24K for WPORV (EOY) - based on duke's post - that same EOY may cost $12K more...)
> 
> btw, WSJ does not take a year to close (stated in OP) - ours took about 6 weeks (w/ a gentle push)
> 
> I would not buy Vistana Beach or Fountains to go there - only to use SVN/II or the SP conversion (if worth it).



If you turn your WPORV EOY to EY, you can definitely requal something.  As a matter of fact, it may exceed $40,000 and then you can requal a Hawaii property.  Soooo if you have some spending cash and like Hawaii, I would pick a resale EY at WKORV or WPORV now, close on it, and then requal it simultaneously while upgrading your WPORV EOY to EY!  That would get some really nice units into your ownership portofolio for at least a 50% savings.

Katherine


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## SDKath

VacationPro said:


> Thanks Katherine!
> 
> This is a very informative post, even if I don't have any current plans to reach 5*.
> 
> How long did the whole process take from start to finish?



About 6 months.  I started with nothing and just finished.    K


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## myip

DavidnRobin said:


> I currently have ~222K SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05K SOs)
> and 243K SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
> for a total of 465.15K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384K SOs - and therefore shy by 175K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465K SOs - and therefore shy by 94K SOs.
> 
> Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
> How would these phantom SOs work?
> 
> {how many oranges will this get me?...}



Another possibility is to upgrade WKORV to a Ocean view or Ocean front or a fixed week and unit in WPORV.  YOur maintenance will be the same and yet you got another unit in the SVN.  YOu really need a 148100 unit to requalify with.  If you sell your mandatory 10K EACH (20k)... You get enough money to buy a volunteer resort and upgrade... I did mine for under $19K.- requalify a lakeside and upgrade SBP.

THe only other feasibile option is to buy SBP or Sheraton Vistana Village. 1 bedroom resale and requalify it with it....
-- cost around 30K
ie:  1 bedroom resale - $500
upgrade it to 2 bedroom - (old Phase )
upgrade it to 2 bedroom LO new phase (10K different)
upgrade it to 3 bedroom LO new phase...

You really have to look around and play with the $ .and make sure it is as 10K different.  If it is under under K., I believe it can be done, you still have to pay $10K - and they will ask vp approval from starwood to sell the unit higher than list price.
-- total cost $30K approx to get you to 5*

Maria


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## duke

DavidnRobin said:


> I currently have ~222K SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05K SOs)
> and 243K SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
> for a total of 465.15K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384K SOs - and therefore shy by 175K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465K SOs - and therefore shy by 94K SOs.
> 
> Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
> How would these phantom SOs work?
> 
> {how many oranges will this get me?...}



David:

You purchased your EOY WPORV recently.  I believe you still have the option to purchase the other half for same price you paid ($24,000).

Use this other half (EOY) to requal another resale purchase.  Best bet is WMH Platinum or SMV Platinum.  You can get these inexpensively as resale and they are worth 148,100 StarOptions.

Sell your 2 - WKV because you can easily trade into them with the requaled resales.

So, you would have EY WKORV, EY WPROV, EY WMH and because you love you WSJ you could just purchase a cheep developer EOY to requal that.

I think that adds up.

duke


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## DavidnRobin

This is all very interesting...

Breakdown: (we own...)
*SVO*
WKORV, EY, 2Bd LO OF Dlx - 148.1K SOs {retro'd}
WPORV, EOY, 2Bd LO - 74.05K SOs {paid $24.2K}
*Total SVO SOs = 222.15K*

*Resale*
WKV, EY, 1Bd Prem/Plat - 81K SOs
WKV, EY, 1Bd Prem/Plat - 81K SOs
WSJ, EY, 2Bd TH/Gold+ - 81K SOs {recent increase form 67.1K SOs}
*Total resale = 243K SOs*

*Total SOs = 465.15K SOs*

Our EOY WPORV purchase was over 12 months ago (although the deed was not recorded until much later). I was not really looking to add another EOY to WPORV, but could always reconsider.  The biggest drawback to WPOPRV is the MFs. I wonder if they would still allow us to buy the other EOY for $24.3K (and give use the ~100K SPs)?

We do not own any non-SVN VOIs - did you mean non-SVO VOIs (resales) like WKV - and sell these?  I think I would rather try and retro these.

I don't think we would go the upgrade route - I am not inclined to buy more resales just to upgrade.  We can't upgrade our WKORV OF Dlx - and for WPORV - only fixed is available for a pretty high cost.

I do think the idea of buying Fountains is interesting - if we could buy 2 Fountains for $25K and requal 2 of our 81K SO resales - this would get us to ~536K SOs - very close to the 559K SOs needed.  Would phantom SOs play a role here?

Also - I am inclined to think they may give more concessions to requalifying resale Mandatory - since SVO is giving up very little since these VOIs are already in SVN.

thoughts?


----------



## SDKath

They have not given me any concessions to retro/requal units.  They don't care if it's M or V.  They don't care if I offer to pay $100,000 for a single OFD unit at WKORV.  Their "new rules" are that there is 1 retro/requal PER purchase (whether it is 81,000 or 148,100 SOs) and the purchase price has to be over $20,000.  Sooo, you could not buy 2 Fountains and retro 2 units.  You can retro 1 only....

Duke's suggestion to upgrade WSJ is a good one too.  If you find out how much that one costs originally, you can apply it to the purchase price of a nicer unit, either bigger or better season.  While you do that, you can retro a resale too.  You'd want to retro another 148,100 units.  Perhaps sell your 81,000 SO WKVs and buy a 148,100 WKV EY Platinum on resale and retro that!

Starwood has gotten VERY inflexible recently with these rules from what I have seen.  Good idea about trying to get the other 1/2 of your EOY WPORV though.  You can defnitely requal a 148,100 property by buying the other half.

Just sharing my experience, not trying to be difficult.  Katherine


----------



## jerseygirl

clsmit said:


> As (I think) jerseygirl (really Cleveland southside girl



Ah ........... this week I'm Westin St John girl and I absolutely LOVE it!!!  I think I could give up Cleveland for this!!   

Great post Kath -- a job very well done (both the purchases and the article) .... it's DEFINITELY sponge worthy!!


----------



## dss

Great post, thank you! We are in a somewhat similar situation to DavidnRobin in that we own WKORK-OFD (EY-already requalified) and now own WPORV EOY (developer purchase) with the option to purchase the other half, which we really don't have a ton of interest in doing. Right now we're sitting at the same 222 SO's as DavidnRobin but without any resale units to requal. It's a long shot for us right now but if there was a cheap way to make it to 5*, i'd love to hear about it. 

It seems like WMH Platinum or SMV Platinum resale would be the best path and then requal by purchasing the other half of our WPORV (Locked in at $25k) but that would still leave us at 443k SO's. I would welcome any creative (an inexpensive) suggestions. Thanks


----------



## pointsjunkie

dss said:


> Great post, thank you! We are in a somewhat similar situation to DavidnRobin in that we own WKORK-OFD (EY-already requalified) and now own WPORV EOY (developer purchase) with the option to purchase the other half, which we really don't have a ton of interest in doing. Right now we're sitting at the same 222 SO's as DavidnRobin but without any resale units to requal. It's a long shot for us right now but if there was a cheap way to make it to 5*, i'd love to hear about it.
> 
> It seems like WMH Platinum or SMV Platinum resale would be the best path and then requal by purchasing the other half of our WPORV (Locked in at $25k) but that would still leave us at 443k SO's. I would welcome any creative (an inexpensive) suggestions. Thanks



you could buy 1 or 2 a sheraton beach club for $14000-$19000 depending on the season and get 85000 staroptions for the sale  for each unit and/or then you you could buy eoy at the fountains or find a small 1 br at svv for the rest of the staroptions. at this point that is the least expensive way to go.

you would still have to buy the other half of wporv to get to 443k so"s.


----------



## DavidnRobin

jerseygirl said:


> Ah ........... this week I'm Westin St John girl and I absolutely LOVE it!!!  I think I could give up Cleveland for this!!
> 
> Great post Kath -- a job very well done (both the purchases and the article) .... it's DEFINITELY sponge worthy!!



Everytime we are on STJ - the same feeling arises - how could we manage to stay there?  But as the old saying goes - "How do you leave the USVI with a million dollars? ... come with 2 million..."

Our trip is less than 4-weeks away... save us some rum...

Yes - an excellent thread on getting to 5* - dss, you could try the upgrade route that SDKath used.
The other EOY for WPORV is anything but cheap - especially considering the MFs.


----------



## GrayFal

SDKath said:


> About 6 months.  *I started with nothing and just finished. *   K


:hysterical:


----------



## jerseygirl

Agree with Pat -- you're not finished!!!!


----------



## capjak

DavidnRobin said:


> I currently have ~222K SOs from 2 SVO VOIs (EY WKORV 2Bd LO at 148.1K SOs, and EOY WPORV 2Bd LO at 74.05K SOs)
> and 243K SOs from 3 resale VOIs (2x WKV at 81K SOs, and WSJ at 81K SOs)
> for a total of 465.15K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 2 of my resales (162K SOs) - that would give me ~384K SOs - and therefore shy by 175K SOs.
> 
> If I requal 3 of my resales (243K SOs) - that would give me ~465K SOs - and therefore shy by 94K SOs.
> 
> Considering cost and MFs (along with SPs and SP incentives) - what is the cheapest entry for me to get to 5*/PFL?
> How would these phantom SOs work?
> 
> {how many oranges will this get me?...}



I do not get the Math:

If you requal 2 x 81K you get 162 plus the new units used to requal I assume a 1 EOY Palm Springs and 1 EOY Cancun for instance would give you 310K plus the 222k for a total of 532K correct?


----------



## myip

capjak said:


> I do not get the Math:
> 
> If you requal 2 x 81K you get 162 plus the new units used to requal I assume a 1 EOY Palm Springs and 1 EOY Cancun for instance would give you 310K plus the 222k for a total of 532K correct?



Ask for 30,000 phantom points.  == 562K


----------



## Sir Newf

*Question for SDKath-*

Extremely well done SDKath!!!!!...I need to ask-what is your career? The skill sets required to create this research, data and then to implement are pretty significant......so what is/was your career (my guess- Mathametican, Analyst, Economist, or home-maker)?


----------



## SDKath

LOL.  None of the above.  I sent you PM.... K


----------



## DavidnRobin

SDKath said:


> LOL.  None of the above.  I sent you PM.... K


I would guess something that involves a lot of heart...


----------



## pointsjunkie

DavidnRobin said:


> I would guess something that involves a lot of heart...



:hysterical: :hysterical: LOL


----------



## duke

Consider this:

1.  Use of "Phantom StarOptions" to get to 5*ELITE is a One-Time feature.  That is, your count of StarOptions for the purpose of qualifing for 5*ELITE status at that time is increased.  I believe the amount is up to 15k for EOY developer purchase and 30k for EY purchase.  CAUTION:  if your portfolio changes (you sell, transfer, or change) your current selection of SVN owned units you "MAY" lose the "phantom staroptions".  You do NOT own these options.

2.  The current minimum dollar amount you must spend for an "Upgrade" is $12,000.

3.  There is NO such thing as Upgrading your current unit.  The transaction is you turn in your current Ownership unit, receive credit for that unti, AND THEN PURCHASE a new unit at CURRENT PRICES.

4.  Consider before making a developer purchase of an ANNUAL unit that you can split into TWO EOY purchases and then requal TWO resale purchases (as long as you meet the dollar threshold).

5.  MOST IMPORTANT:  READ THE FIRST POST in the sticky regarding the process for requalifing a resale.  These rules still hold.  GET IT IN WRITING.  GET THE LISTED DOCUMENTS COMPLETED BEFORE YOU SIGN ANYTHING.

6.  The biggest reason to get to 5*ELITE is SPG Platinum for Life.  There are only 2000 of these available.  When they are gone they are gone (some may differ on this).  So, be prompt if you choose to do this.


----------



## Bill4728

duke said:


> Consider this:
> 
> 1.  Use of "Phantom StarOptions" to get to 5*ELITE is a One-Time feature.  That is, your count of StarOptions for the purpose of qualifing for 5*ELITE status at that time is increased.  I believe the amount is up to 15k for EOY developer purchase and 30k for EY purchase.  CAUTION:  if your portfolio changes (you sell, transfer, or change) your current selection of SVN owned units you "MAY" lose the "phantom staroptions".  You do NOT own these options.
> 
> 2.  The current minimum dollar amount you must spend for an "Upgrade" is $12,000.
> 
> 3.  There is NO such thing as Upgrading your current unit.  The transaction is you turn in your current Ownership unit, receive credit for that unti, AND THEN PURCHASE a new unit at CURRENT PRICES.
> 
> 4.  Consider before making a developer purchase of an ANNUAL unit that you can split into TWO EOY purchases and then requal TWO resale purchases (as long as you meet the dollar threshold.
> 
> 5.  MOST IMPORTANT:  READ THE FIRST POST in the sticky regarding the process for requalifing a resale.  These rules still hold.  GET IT IN WRITING.  GET THE LISTED DOCUMENTS COMPLETED BEFORE YOU SIGN ANYTHING.
> 
> 6.  The biggest reason to get to 5*ELITE is SPG Platinum for Life.  There are only 2000 of these available.  When they are gone they are gone (some may differ on this).  So, be prompt if you choose to do this.


Not to take anything away from what SDKath has said, but DUKE is the one who brought the whole "You can retro your resale week" to our attention. 

  Thanks Duke


----------



## myip

The only caution that I would regarding this thread is Starwood changes the rules all the time.  You really need to talk with the salesrep for the current rules.  Since last year, I think they changes the rules at least 3 times.  If you start the process now, the rules can change in 3 months after you brought your resales and ready for upgrade or purchase from SVN.  Make sure you have an exit plan if it doesn't work out.


----------



## Troopers

duke said:


> 6.  The biggest reason to get to 5*ELITE is SPG Platinum for Life.  There are only 2000 of these available.  When they are gone they are gone (some may differ on this).  So, be prompt if you choose to do this.



I tend to disagree.  5* Elite (SPG Platinum for Life) is a byproduct of spending $50k+ into *wood.  The biggest reason to spend this kind of money is for timesharing; not SPG PLF.  IMHO.


----------



## myip

R Chen said:


> I tend to disagree.  5* Elite (SPG Platinum for Life) is a byproduct of spending $50k+ into *wood.  The biggest reason to spend this kind of money is for timesharing; not SPG PLF.  IMHO.



I disagree with you.  If you plan accordingly, SPG PFL is very valueable.  I didn't get into SVN because of timeshare.  I got into it because of SPG.  I got 570500 Staroptions per year with $4300 per year in maintenance fees and 287980 starpoints.  The value of the starpoints that I get is a lot higher than $4300.  The bonus of it that I can choose to use it for timesharing or convert to starpoints.


----------



## stevens397

My question is how you all look at and think about the future.  I have had an amazing run with Starpoints and combined with SPG Platinum, it was even more amazing - suites all over Europe, for free!

When I bought Kierland, it came with 72,000 Starpoints in trade value.  If I added a mere 8,000, it brought me up to 80,000 and that was worth 10 nights in a room in St. John!  While some downplay rooms versus suites, it was a fabulous value.  At Category 6, it would now get me between 3 and 5 nights and that is only four years later.

I can afford to go ahead with the pursuit, but I fear I'll look back 3 or 4 years from now and think I was crazy - I'll get Platinum for life but the 250,000 - 300,000 annual points would get much less than I could get right now.

Our single best usage over the last few years has been trading Starpoints (from the AMEX) to Cathay Pacific's AsiaMiles program and using them for Business and First Class tickets to Europe.  Yes, they devalued them a bit but they are still a great deal.  Unfortunately, something is up and it often takes an hour on hold to get through.

I guess I'm saying that I sometimes feel it was great while it lasted and that the golden days may be behind us.  Aren't you all scared that you might own resorts in places you don't want to go to so you can get points that will be worth less and less?  I already have a WMH waiting to get through ROFR.  If I felt good about this stuff, I'd make the move in a heartbeat.  Thanks for letting me ramble and happy Memorial Day!


----------



## Troopers

myip said:


> I disagree with you.  If you plan accordingly, SPG PFL is very valueable.  I didn't get into SVN because of timeshare.  I got into it because of SPG.  I got 570500 Staroptions per year with $4300 per year in maintenance fees and 287980 starpoints.  The value of the starpoints that I get is a lot higher than $4300.  The bonus of it that I can choose to use it for timesharing or convert to starpoints.



WOW!

It’s really not necessary to discuss the merit of your logic.  I just do no think it’s very prudent to think this way.

I’m glad it works for you.


----------



## myip

stevens397 said:


> I can afford to go ahead with the pursuit, but I fear I'll look back 3 or 4 years from now and think I was crazy - I'll get Platinum for life but the 250,000 - 300,000 annual points would get much less than I could get right now.


I totally agree.  You have to look at which resort that you are trying ret'rd in and what is the maintenance fees.  Not all resort is feasible to convert to starpoints.  You also look at the payback time.  I choose Lakeside Terrace and SMV because of ratio - maintenance fees /starpoints conversion.   I didn't want to do it with WMH because of high maintenance fees and taxes.  You really need to look at the overall picture.

IF I were to liquidate all my starwood purchases today, I will lose 35K (TOTAL cost - resale value). However, I got a lot of incentive to become 5* - so my lost is probably around $20K.   I looks at it as I spend $20K for PFL  280000 starpoints and 4300 maintenance fees.


----------



## SDKath

Hey guys -- rule of the thread is we don't debate the merits of doing this.  We talk about HOW getting to 5* can be done for those who find it useful (for whatever reason).

Please let's talk about "to 5* or not to 5*" elsewhere.  It helps focus the thread.  I think it's better to stick to the different ways to make it all happen here...

And yes, DUKE deserves a big thank you to for all of the advice he has posted on this board (and I meticulously read) over the years.  

Katherine


----------



## DavidnRobin

Damn - and I wanted to make a comment on the value/merits of doing this... where is the thread that discusses this? 
:hysterical:


----------



## OKPACIFIC

Great Post! We own a WKOR-N resale property. We asked our Starwood sales rep about the concept of upgrading a resale property. She said that checked up the chain of command all the way to the top person in charge of all HI properties and was told emphatically that they do not touch resale properties for upgrades. Questions (1) Are the rules for HI properties different than elsewhere? (2) We really like our Starwood sales rep, but don't want to mess this up by barking up the wrong tree -- do you have any recommendations as to what our next step should be?


----------



## myip

What are you trying to upgarde?  Is it to a different view?  There has to be min amount for upgrade to work.


----------



## OKPACIFIC

I currently own an Annual OF. My plan was to buy a resale Island View, pay to upgrade it and requalify my OF. I didnt get to that detail with my sales rep, I was just asking her generically about the ability to upgrade a resale property and got the response I mentioned in my post.


----------



## tlpnet

I have a feeling that the problem here is a combination of policy AND availability. WKORV and WKORV-N are pretty much sold out, so there probably isn't inventory to achieve an upgrade there. To upgrade, you have to spend a certain amount of new money (new developer unit less amount paid for your unit when purchased from the developer). Then, to requality a resale, you have to spend either $20,000 or $40,000 in new money, so if you meet the first rule, then you have to meet the second rule also to do what you want. If your salesperson isn't telling you that, you need a new salesperson. Feel free to PM me if you want a recommendation.


----------



## OKPACIFIC

tipnet, thank you for your offer. I sent you a PM for the recommendation of a sales rep. For the public discussion board, when I was visiting with the sales rep as of August 12 2008 there was at least 6 OF KORV-N properites available. Curiously, these did not have any incentive points associated with them.


----------



## DavidnRobin

as mentioned in another thread - you can buy OF WKORV (better OF) resale for $45-50K - consider this cost against the cost of an upgrade.


----------



## myip

OKPACIFIC said:


> tipnet, thank you for your offer. I sent you a PM for the recommendation of a sales rep. For the public discussion board, when I was visiting with the sales rep as of August 12 2008 there was at least 6 OF KORV-N properites available. Curiously, these did not have any incentive points associated with them.




By the time you finished buying a resale Island view unit, there won't  be any inventory left for the OF for you to upgrade in.  This is probably the reason why the salesperson say you can't do it with Hawaii unit.


----------



## DJmonkey

*How do I know what someone paid for a resale?*

4)	Optional, extra savings step: Look for a couple of resale units to “upgrade.”  This means you buy a unit inexpensively on resale and Starwood gives you credit for the original purchase price (the price paid by original owner to Starwood).  The units you choose for upgrading have to be in locations that Starwood is actively selling AND have reasonable resales so the choices are limited.  Try to find units that are selling cheap now but were really pricy when first bought.  My PGA 2BR non-LO cost me $500 on ebay but got me $15,000 credit toward a purchase! Options include:​
How do I know what amount of credit I will get when upgrading?
There is a 2br WKVOR listed for $16K on ebay. I am wondering how much credit I would get if I wanted to upgrade this and requl in some other cheap resale.


----------



## SDKath

You need a good Starwood rep to tell you.  If you are going to retro/requal something, you should be working with someone at Starwood anyway to make sure what you are doing is ok (you have the minimum difference in price, availability, etc).

If you call your sales person with the unit number and week number, they can tell you exactly what the original price was.  Asking the seller I found is totally useless.  People don't remember and tend to "overguess" what they paid.  The deeds often say the price after the downpayment, etc.  So the best is to go with the Starwood database, which your sales person can access.   

Katherine


----------



## SDKath

myip said:


> By the time you finished buying a resale Island view unit, there won't  be any inventory left for the OF for you to upgrade in.  This is probably the reason why the salesperson say you can't do it with Hawaii unit.



It's a gamble but they have told me for almost a year now that WKORV and WKORV N are sold out.  Yet every time I call them directly, there are ALWAYS units available, even in the OF ones (for $104k!!!).  Heck, I even found some WKV units for sale recently (?bankruptcies that were repossessed by Starwood?) even though WKV has been sold out for years.  

Katherine


----------



## DJmonkey

SDKath said:


> It's a gamble but they have told me for almost a year now that WKORV and WKORV N are sold out.  Yet every time I call them directly, there are ALWAYS units available, even in the OF ones (for $104k!!!).  Heck, I even found some WKV units for sale recently (?bankruptcies that were repossessed by Starwood?) even though WKV has been sold out for years.
> 
> Katherine



What WKV inventory were they selling?



SDKath said:


> You need a good Starwood rep to tell you.  If you are going to retro/requal something, you should be working with someone at Starwood anyway to make sure what you are doing is ok (you have the minimum difference in price, availability, etc).
> 
> If you call your sales person with the unit number and week number, they can tell you exactly what the original price was.  Asking the seller I found is totally useless.  People don't remember and tend to "overguess" what they paid.  The deeds often say the price after the downpayment, etc.  So the best is to go with the Starwood database, which your sales person can access.
> 
> Katherine



Do you know a good Rep? Mine was nice but a little flaky. She thougth I could only requal a one bed with a new one bed purchase.


----------



## DJmonkey

*2000 Memberships*

So I have seen the 2000 SPG membership number listed a few times. Any idea how many are left? I can get to 4* pretty easily, but fear if I do the Joshadelic 5-8 year plan, there wont be any 5* memberships left. Or the system could have changed about 25 different times in that span. 

Also whats the big motivator from 4* to 5* I am pretty much just interested in the bonus conversion.

I vacation anually in AZ so I need to pick up a WKV. From there I think I just need to upgrade my WLR and I would be 4*.
Not sure if I see much point in 5*. 
What does PFL really get you? Better chance of upgrades?


----------



## SDKath

DJmonkey said:


> What WKV inventory were they selling?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know a good Rep? Mine was nice but a little flaky. She thougth I could only requal a one bed with a new one bed purchase.



The WKV inventory is very much dependent on what they have available day to day.  I have been notified twice of Platinum 2BR units that have come back to them (I think selling for $39,000).  Gold and SIlver is much easier to find and I think they have some to sell if you call.

I PM'd you my sales rep who I think is fantastic.  Not allowed to post it here on line.  

Katherine


----------



## stevens397

PFL does indeed get upgrades.  With Starwood, that's supposed to include a suite if they are available.  In the last four years of stays in top European Starwoods, I've only been denied a suite once.  In the US it's more hit and miss but I've scored some wonderful suites here too.

Of course, the issue to me is just how many vacation weeks can you take???  Four weeks of timeshares, minimally, to reach Starwood 5* and get PFL.  Of course, if they are lock-offs, that gets you from 4 to 8 weeks off each year.  The only way I would think most non-retired people can make it work is to trade at least a few in for points.

Wish I had that much time!


----------



## pointsjunkie

i used 4 weeks last year, rented 5 unit,  gave time to make a wish and converted 2 units to starpoints. i go away 1 week per month using timeshare and hotels, fly free most of the time, life is good!!!!


----------



## DJmonkey

So I could buy something like this listing.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300257604123&fromMakeTrack=true
And upgrade it to the new phase while requaling another resale?
As long as the upgrade is more than $10,000 correct?
I thought I saw Duke refrence a $12K upgrade minimum. 

Any idea what a 2 bed 2 bath platinum was originally selling for to get an idea of what my upgrade value would be.


----------



## stevens397

Yes, you could possibly do that, but SBP offers very few StarOptions.  If 5* is your preferred destination, you'll probably spend more time looking for the big boys that yield 148,100 per year.


----------



## Joshadelic

DJmonkey said:


> So I could buy something like this listing.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300257604123&fromMakeTrack=true
> And upgrade it to the new phase while requaling another resale?
> As long as the upgrade is more than $10,000 correct?
> I thought I saw Duke refrence a $12K upgrade minimum.
> 
> Any idea what a 2 bed 2 bath platinum was originally selling for to get an idea of what my upgrade value would be.



I had the EXACT same idea a few days ago and it was not warmly received by the group here.  From what I can tell, the reason it's not such a good idea is that SBP isn't the best property to requal (in terms of SO's, SP's, MF's, etc.).  I was told it was a much better property to trade, so requal didn't make sense.

If you end up wanting to do an upgrade (not requal) at SBP, my rep tells me there is a $7k margin at Plantation and a $10k margin at Palmetto that you have to meet in order for them to accept an upgrade.  That means in the case of the property you referenced above that you would have to purchase anything above $25k in Plantation and $28k in Palmetto.


----------



## SDKath

Every location has a slightly different upgrade difference needed.  I think the Orlando properties are $7k still and most others are $10k.  I have not heard of $12,000 yet but these are ever changing (usually going up).  $7k price difference is not a huge difference and can easily be accomplished because the original price of a unit is usually lower than the current asking price anyway.  TS prices have gone up a LOT in the last 5 years so a SBP Palmetto selling for $25,000 now was probably only $15,000 when it was first purchased in 2002 or 2003!  SO even if you don't buy a higher season unit, you will get the $7000 difference.  

FOr example, let's say you buy on resale a SBP Planation section platinum 2BR LO fr $4000 (just a guess).  Assume it was originally purchased for $15,000.  You can upgrade it to a Palmetto Platinum 2BR LO AND retro something at the same time.  SO you are really not upgrading technically speaking (going from Platinum to Platinum) but you get the retro included in the purchase and the credit for the resale, saving $11,000!

Katherine


----------



## Joshadelic

SDKath said:


> Every location has a slightly different upgrade difference needed.  I think the Orlando properties are $7k still and most others are $10k.  I have not heard of $12,000 yet but these are ever changing (usually going up).  $7k price difference is not a huge difference and can easily be accomplished because the original price of a unit is usually lower than the current asking price anyway.  TS prices have gone up a LOT in the last 5 years so a SBP Palmetto selling for $25,000 now was probably only $15,000 when it was first purchased in 2002 or 2003!  SO even if you don't buy a higher season unit, you will get the $7000 difference.
> 
> FOr example, let's say you buy on resale a SBP Planation section platinum 2BR LO fr $4000 (just a guess).  Assume it was originally purchased for $15,000.  You can upgrade it to a Palmetto Platinum 2BR LO AND retro something at the same time.  SO you are really not upgrading technically speaking (going from Platinum to Platinum) but you get the retro included in the purchase and the credit for the resale, saving $11,000!
> 
> Katherine



So are you saying that the above transaction you gave as an example would not be a bad idea?  It's literally the exact same thing I was talking about doing the other day and nobody thought highly of it at all.  Just curious.


----------



## SDKath

Not a bad idea as long as you are retroing 148,100 SO units in the process.  I think your previous post had mentioned retroing resale properties that are less than 148,100 SOs.  I think most of us feel that if you are going to go directly to Starwood and spend $$$$ with them, you might as well get the biggest bang for your buck, so to speak.  It's a great idea to buy some smaller units or EOY units from them as long as the resale one you own is worth a LOT of SOs.

One thing to keep in mind:  the minimum price of what you buy from Starwood in order to retro a unit is $20,000.  Now if you are upgrading while retroing, it is the minimum *difference *between units that matters ($7k-$12k as mentioned above).  Got all that?  :rofl: 

Kath


----------



## Joshadelic

SDKath said:


> Not a bad idea as long as you are retroing 148,100 SO units in the process.  I think your previous post had mentioned retroing resale properties that are less than 148,100 SOs.  I think most of us feel that if you are going to go directly to Starwood and spend $$$$ with them, you might as well get the biggest bang for your buck, so to speak.  It's a great idea to buy some smaller units or EOY units from them as long as the resale one you own is worth a LOT of SOs.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind:  the minimum price of what you buy from Starwood in order to retro a unit is $20,000.  Now if you are upgrading while retroing, it is the minimum *difference *between units that matters ($7k-$12k as mentioned above).  Got all that?  :rofl:
> 
> Kath



Yep.  Completely understood and agreed.  I think that DJmonkey would be better off buying something more than a 67,100 SO property if his goal is to retro or requal it.  That's all the SO's the above referenced EBay listing is worth.  My SVO rep hinted to me that it was worth around $18k in the original sale.


----------



## DJmonkey

Joshadelic said:


> Yep.  Completely understood and agreed.  I think that DJmonkey would be better off buying something more than a 67,100 SO property if his goal is to retro or requal it.  That's all the SO's the above referenced EBay listing is worth.  My SVO rep hinted to me that it was worth around $18k in the original sale.



The palan was to requal a 148100 property (probably WMH) and upgrade this SBP to the 95,700 palmeto.


----------



## myip

Joshadelic said:


> So are you saying that the above transaction you gave as an example would not be a bad idea?  It's literally the exact same thing I was talking about doing the other day and nobody thought highly of it at all.  Just curious.


There is nothing wrong with your original plan except that I would buy Sheraton Mountain Vista or Lakeside Terrace (platinum season).  WMH maintenance fees is too high.


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## DJmonkey

*4*vs 5**

So whats the main reason to become 5* over 4*?
I know you are platinum for life but does that just mean you get a platinum spg card?
I know there is a conceirge line but it seems the best benefits are the 10% conversion premium and the upgrades which they did away with.
What other benefits do you get that are not listed in the link to the elite benes?
I saw someone post somehting about 2 for 1 airfare??!!

Now that they raised the limit I think I am only good to get to 4*...if I even make it there.


----------



## Henry M.

The Platinum SPG level is very good if you travel a lot and stay at Starwood hotels. The upgrades are usually worthwhile. Otherwise it doesn't mean much.

In addition to what you mentioned, you get late check-out (noon instead of 10 am).

The upgrade is not a listed benefit, but they do look at your level if there are any upgrades available at all. They don't promise them but they do happen (they've happened to me and even to someone that was using my unit when I wasn't there).

I don't think the various levels should be goals in and of themselves. The benefits are nice, but you should only buy what you want to use, for the primary purpose of enjoying vacations (that includes exchanging). The various levels are just a little extra gravy (for which you pay a lot!).


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## SDKath

*Well, it's official*

The SO requirement to be 5* has been increased for 559,000 SOs to 649,000 SOs effective immediately.  No warning, no nothing.   

Just wanted to update this thread too.  I think those who reached 5* are going to stay PFL under the previous level, but anyone new going for 5* is going to need 100,000 more SOs than I first posted in this guide.  

Oh, Starwood, did you hear that AIG got bailed out by the government yesterday (don't think we have enough $ as a country after Freddie, Fannie and AIG, do we??)  Bear Sterns is no more, Merryl Lunch got bought out by B of A, Lehman went under, unemployment is at it's highest level in 6 years and the housing market is, well -- we all know about that....

Katherine


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## tomandrobin

Holy Cow.......What crap to change the 5* status without notice. 

From a marketing standpoint you would think they would give members a three month window to  encourage sales of anyone on the fence.


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## Ken555

Time to buy more HOT! :hysterical:

Viva la RESALE!

:rofl::rofl:


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## LisaRex

I feel really bad for the people who are currently in the midst of closing on properties right now so that they could earn 5* status. If I was short of StarOptions, I'd definitely request "phantom" StarOptions to fill the gap. 

For people who were merely thinking about it, this move might ultimately save them thousands of dollars they'd have wasted pursuing elite status with a company that can't seem to find its direction.

From a bookkeeping POV, all of these variations just ensures that errors will be made.  Are you a voluntary resale or mandatory resale owner? Are you a 5* elite prior to 9/18/08 or after? How much more complicated can they get?


----------



## grgs

tomandrobin said:


> From a marketing standpoint you would think they would give members a three month window to  encourage sales of anyone on the fence.



That's exactly what I was thinking.  



LisaRex said:


> For people who were merely thinking about it, this move might ultimately save them thousands of dollars they'd have wasted pursuing elite status with a company that can't seem to find its direction.



I was thinking that, too.

Glorian


----------



## tomandrobin

If they were "smart" they would make a press release and state that starting "Nov 1st or Jan 1st" there are new requirements....blah blah blah. 

If anything, this will cut-off anyone trying to purchase to obtain 5* for a long while.


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## tomandrobin

My Star Central still shows the "old" requirements for 5* elite.


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## stevens397

Absolutely right - saved me thousands and now I'll have to develop brand new fantasies!


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## LisaRex

stevens397 said:


> Absolutely right - saved me thousands and now I'll have to develop brand new fantasies!



My fantasies usually revolve around Matthew Fox.  Feel free to borrow them.


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## stevens397

Doesn't work for me.  Halle was right up there until a month ago, when my niece gave birth to a girl and named her Halle.  Doesn't seem right anymore!


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## SDKath

There is still a great way to get to 5* cheap that people have been using more and more (at least until Starwood closes this door too).

Basically retro with EOY purchases.  If you want an EY someplace, ask the rep to split the unit into EOYs and retro something with each side!  It works and will get you more SOs and get you to the new 5* level for a slightly higher MF only.  No need to give up -- till one day they change that rule too.

  Katherine


----------



## Ken555

SDKath said:


> ask the rep to split the unit into EOYs and retro something with each side!  It works and will get you more SOs and get you to the new 5* level for a slightly higher MF only.  No need to give up -- till one day they change that rule too.



I would think you could also purchase a third EOY at the same 50% off (at the same time as the others) at the same or different resort. So, if I understand correctly, what you're saying is to do something like:

Buy 3 EY WMH Platinum 2-bed weeks resale - estimate $10,000 each
Buy 3 EOY WLR Platinum 2-bed developer weeks - $64,350 

= $94,350 and 666,450 SOs (no phantom SOs needed with this scenario)

MFs estimate: 

$1400 per WMH EY = $4200
$733 per WLR EOY = $2199

= $6399 (and budget 10% increases each year...)

This assumes a minimum $20,000 developer purchase per requal needed. 

I haven't analyzed all the purchase options. Is there a cheaper way to get to 5* now, perhaps using 30,000 phantom SOs? Of course, you could get lucky and grab a SDO "true" Platinum week (or SMV week) for less than 10k.


----------



## SDKath

Exactly.

I also just found out that you can get "phantom" SOs for each PURCHASE you make.  But it is credit for other, non-Starwood timeshares so you would need to own something else.

So let's say you buy an EOY and retro a WMH.  You can get 30,000 phantom SOs for owning a Disney contract (for example).

Then a week later you buy the other EOY unit and retro another WMH.  You get ANOTHER 30,000 phantom SOs for your Marriott EOY week (for example).

You can keep doing this.  ANd since people would be making EOY purchases (over 20,000), you can theoretically get up to 90,000 SOs just for this.  Of course you need to own something else (even 25 DVC points is enough) and be able to prove it to them.  These SOs will help you get to 3* or 5* but you CANNOT "use them" to reserve a week or anything.  That's why they are phantom.

So to me the EOY purchases and retros at this point make waaaay more sense than any other scenario (as originally suggested by Duke).

It WILL cost more to be 5* though because you basically need to own more properties in the end to make the new SO requirement.  So don't kid yourself.  This is in Starwood's favor.  And I am SURE they will close the EOY purchase retro loop soon too.

Katherine


----------



## Ken555

SDKath said:


> I also just found out that you can get "phantom" SOs for each PURCHASE you make.  But it is credit for other, non-Starwood timeshares so you would need to own something else.



So... what if you own several other t/s's at the time of the purchase / 5* qualification, and then sell them. And, is there a minimum qualification on the other t/s units (Marriott, Disney, etc) or can it be even the cheap week from xyz?


----------



## SDKath

Ken555 said:


> So... what if you own several other t/s's at the time of the purchase / 5* qualification, and then sell them. And, is there a minimum qualification on the other t/s units (Marriott, Disney, etc) or can it be even the cheap week from xyz?



I think once you prove your ownership of an outside TS, you don't have to do it again.  I did this phantom SO thing for one of my purchases and got credit for one of my DVC contracts.  There I very seriously doubt that they will ask me to prove ownership again.  But for the first time, I did have to fax them my deed.

They asked me for an *annual *ownership at another TS.  I don't think it matters where and they were a little stumped with DVC's point system but once I sent them the recorded deed that said annual points of X, they were fine.  I don't think they "judge" your week on how cheap it is.  But it does have to be an annual TS.  

K


----------



## stevens397

Again - for me, you now need even more weeks to get to 5*.  Just how many vacation weeks do you have in order to be able to take advantage of Starwood Platinum?  Only works, I think, for most people it you trade weeks for points.  Then, of course, you are at their mercy in terms of further devaluations!

BTW, I AM Starwood Platinum and I have had some incredible upgrades, especially in Europe over the last four years.  No one knows what the future brings, but I get a double stay promotion each year for the last two years and have worked out a deal with a local Starwood.  Usually costs me less than $1,000 per year to reach Platinum (most of my REAL stays are on points!) AND I get Starpoints for my efforts that bring my net cost down to about $600 (I figure and usually get 5 cents per point).  With a week in Kierland, a week in Mission Hills, a Marriott week I never use and always trade, it makes much more sense to me than spending another $50,000 and hoping the rules don't change. 

Don't misunderstand - I am certainly not saying anyone taking another path is wrong.  But I still believe that PFL is the only significant value for 5* and for me, the numbers don't work.  If they work for others, I'm happy for them.


----------



## DJmonkey

*Marriot?*

Okay now you have confsed me again. 
I own a seperate Marriot week in Vail. 
Are you saying I can get some sort of phantom Staroptions for owning this?
Also when I retroed I did not ask for phantom options. Should I have?
Is it too late to ask for some?

If 5* just went up 90000SO some phantom points would helpt the sting assuming I ever actually make it to 5*.
However I think I can make it to 4* fairly easily. Especially if I can use phantom SO towards that.

BTW
How can SVO be increasing prices in this market when resales are dropping dramatically??


----------



## SDKath

DJmonkey said:


> Okay now you have confsed me again.
> I own a seperate Marriot week in Vail.
> Are you saying I can get some sort of phantom Staroptions for owning this?
> Also when I retroed I did not ask for phantom options. Should I have?
> Is it too late to ask for some?
> 
> If 5* just went up 90000SO some phantom points would helpt the sting assuming I ever actually make it to 5*.
> However I think I can make it to 4* fairly easily. Especially if I can use phantom SO towards that.
> 
> BTW
> How can SVO be increasing prices in this market when resales are dropping dramatically??



YES.  Exactly.  But phantom credits are ONLY good if you are going for 5*.  otherwise they are worthless. You can't actually use them.  But today I learned that you can get them 3 different times (30,000x3=90,000SOs for free) as long as you request them at each purchase.  So it seems to me that if anyone is interested in 5* EVER in the future and you own elsewhere, ask for the phantom credits at every single purchase you make with Starwood. WHY NOT??  Kath


----------



## DJmonkey

So do you think I can ask for them for my last purchase?
Also cant I use them to get to 4* more quickly?


----------



## Grandmama

SDKath said:


> YES.  Exactly.  But phantom credits are ONLY good if you are going for 5*.  otherwise they are worthless. You can't actually use them.  But today I learned that you can get them 3 different times (30,000x3=90,000SOs for free) as long as you request them at each purchase.  So it seems to me that if anyone is interested in 5* EVER in the future and you own elsewhere, ask for the phantom credits at every single purchase you make with Starwood. WHY NOT??  Kath



We were told that they give phantom credits only when they get you to a new elite level.  So, you can use them in getting to elite level 3, 4 and 5.  They won't give you any if you do not reach the next elite level with that transaction.


----------



## DJmonkey

SDKath said:


> YES.  Exactly.  But phantom credits are ONLY good if you are going for 5*.  otherwise they are worthless. You can't actually use them.  But today I learned that you can get them 3 different times (30,000x3=90,000SOs for free) as long as you request them at each purchase.  So it seems to me that if anyone is interested in 5* EVER in the future and you own elsewhere, ask for the phantom credits at every single purchase you make with Starwood. WHY NOT??  Kath



Still confused. How are the other timeshares owned related to the pahntom options given? I thought they were just something SVO would give you to get ot the next elite level.
Also if I didnt need 30K phantoms now but need 60K phantom to get to 4* do you think I can get them at that time??


----------



## SDKath

DJmonkey said:


> Still confused. How are the other timeshares owned related to the pahntom options given? I thought they were just something SVO would give you to get ot the next elite level.
> Also if I didnt need 30K phantoms now but need 60K phantom to get to 4* do you think I can get them at that time??



They are not related.  I think they just try to "help" people who are sooo close but can't quite reach their elite level.  I got one with my last purchase and they had me fill out the form for it saying it would be to get me to 3* or 5*.  I didn't see 4* on there even.

You can't do it retroactively.  And they can only do it ONCE per transaction.  I am guessing if you purchase 2 EOYs with separate contracts, you can fill out the form for each one and get 60,000.  But remember you really can't use these for reservations or SP conversions or anything.  So they are worth nothing if they don't help you reach another elite level.

Like I said, I would ask for it with every purchase.  Why not?  You never know when the 5* bug is going to hit you.  Trust me. :ignore: 

Katherine


----------



## Grandmama

DJmonkey said:


> Still confused. How are the other timeshares owned related to the pahntom options given? I thought they were just something SVO would give you to get ot the next elite level.
> Also if I didnt need 30K phantoms now but need 60K phantom to get to 4* do you think I can get them at that time??




They will give you a maximum of 30,000 phantom options to get the the next elite level.  Those are given with a purchase.  So, if you are purchasing a annual week to get to the next elite level, and you are short up to 30,000 star options in reaching that elite level, SVO will give you those phantom options if you own an annual week in a non-SVO timeshare.  You must submit a copy of your contract or deed for the non-SVO to prove ownership. We were told that they will only give the phantom options to get to the next elite level, and they will only give them when purchasing an annual week.


----------



## SDKath

*Should Add This To Guide Too...*

I am not sure I mentioned this in the original guide but be sure to also look at the TOTAL SOs you end up with when you retro/upgrade and buy units.

For example, I am looking at someone's scenario where they would have 670,000 SOs.  Another scenario would give them 677,300.  Not much difference, right??  *WRONG!*  Those 7,000 SOs make a HUGE difference.

Look at the SOs and make sure that for each year, you will end up with multiples of 148,100 and 81,000 SOs.  Unless you like staying in a studio, you want to have enough SOs to get you to a larger 1BR plus some 2BR LO's.

148,100x4=592,400 SOs.  That means you have 4 weeks in 2BR LOs each year.  You want at least 81,000 more SOs after that so that you don't end up with some wierd 77,000 SO number that is not too useful each and every year.  Unless of course you don't mind traveling off season or staying in studios.  

My thought is to *grab at least 673,400 SOs with your 5* deal *to get the PFL benefits AND get the most usable SOs each year.  Of course you may not use all of them for TS reservations each year or you may travel off season so SOs go farther then, or add on extra days to a trip, but this is a safe bet year after year.  

Katherine


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## tomandrobin

But your assuming that all the weeks you are booking are peak season, like Hawaii. We like to reserve weeks at HRA in gold and silver season that throws those staroption requirements off. Two bedroom lock-off gold season is 95,700, one bedroom premium is 51,700 ........and gold season is the summer.


----------



## SDKath

tomandrobin said:


> But your assuming that all the weeks you are booking are peak season, like Hawaii. We like to reserve weeks at HRA in gold and silver season that throws those staroption requirements off. Two bedroom lock-off gold season is 95,700, one bedroom premium is 51,700 ........and gold season is the summer.



Exactly.  And that is also assuming that all your weeks will turn into reservations.  Many people convert their weeks (at least some) to SPs and so on.  K


----------



## oneohana

tomandrobin said:


> But your assuming that all the weeks you are booking are peak season, like Hawaii. We like to reserve weeks at HRA in gold and silver season that throws those staroption requirements off. Two bedroom lock-off gold season is 95,700, one bedroom premium is 51,700 ........and gold season is the summer.



Yes it will. But, look at this way. You will have extra *options to donate to the make a wish fund.


----------



## easterntraveler

I really wish some updates were posted to these threads, they are so good. But they are over a year old. I was just offered 60,000 phantom points to reach *3. Now I am exploring my cheapest method of getting *5. I did not buy, I did the 15 mo wait and see option. Anyone have any up to date advise that is not covered here?


----------



## jarta

easterntraveler,   ...   Currently, the easiest and cheapest way to get to 5 Star Elite is to buy the most annual Staroptions for the lowest price (including MF) at a voluntary resort in the re-sale market and then buy an every other year 2-br Platinum at Lagunamar for $21,500.  That would allow you to retro the non-developer purchase as part of the Lagunamar purchase.  Lagunamar has low MF (but they will undoubtedly rise over time).   But, Lagunamar is a voluntary resort and resale prices will drop quickly.  (I think Desert Willow and Riverbend have the same price for an every other year 2-br lockoff in Platinum season, $21,500.)

If you are concerned about selling your timeshares, buy the most staroptions at the lowest price (including MF) at a mandatory resort.  Currently, the price on eBay for a 2-br annual at WKV in Platinum season (148,100 Staroptions) is $17K.  But, all you really gain by buying a mandatory resort resale and retroing it is the ability to convert the Staroptions to Starpoints.  Some might feel that the extra expense of buying mandatory does not lend itself to retroing.

Whatever you do, be advised your must end up owning 6-7 weeks and that owning 6-7 weeks of 2-br Starwood resorts can put a very large dent in your wallet in terms of purchase amount (resale or developer) and the MF will probably run in excess of $7K per year.

Only try to get to 5 Star Elite if you can afford to make the purchases and can afford the yearly total MF *and you will actually use the Staroptions*.  Dropping them in Starpoints is OK - depending how you use the points - but to use the points well you must use them in Europe or Asia.  Using points at airport hotels in the US is a waste!  But, using points in Asia is good - but you have to get there!

Consider this decision carefully.  I am 5 Star Elite and love it.  But, it's definitely not for everyone.  Please, do not waste your money by overbuying just to get to (and be able to say you are now) 5 Star Elite.   ...   eom


----------



## LisaRex

easterntraveler said:


> I really wish some updates were posted to these threads, they are so good. But they are over a year old. I was just offered 60,000 phantom points to reach *3. Now I am exploring my cheapest method of getting *5. I did not buy, I did the 15 mo wait and see option. Anyone have any up to date advise that is not covered here?



To review, here are the minimum requirements for status:

3* status: Two-weeks or more of interval ownership with a combined value of 159,000 StarOptions
4* status: combined value of 359,000 StarOptions
5* status: combined value of 649,000 StarOptions

Your cheapest path to get to 5* hasn't changed in a year. The bottom line is that you should buy a cheap voluntary resale and then spend sufficient $$ on a developer purchase to retro the resale.  I'd target the resorts with the lowest historical MFs, such as SDO or WKV or SVV.  

If they are offering you 60,000 phantom options to reach 3*, then you only have 99,000 SOs?  You've got your work cut out for you to reach 659,000 SOs.  BTW, they'll only give you enough phantom options to reach the next plateau.  They're not going to give you multiple batches -- 60,000 phantom SOs to reach 3* and then another batch of phantom SOs to reach 4*.


----------



## DeniseM

With the on-going double digit increases in MF, I would think long and hard about buying more timeshares to reach 5 Star Elite.  What is your motivation for reaching 5 Star Elite?  What do you hope to achieve?

Here is a link to the Elite Perks for review - note that only a few of the "perks" have any real value-

https://www.mystarcentral.com/elite/chart.html


----------



## CanadianLawyer

*Resale upgrades*

Has there been any recent changes to the ability to upgrade resale units? I saw a mention of a change in May that you could not do an upgrade and a retro in the same transaction, but I didn't know whether that applied to straight upgrades where you pay the difference between the original price and the price of the upgraded unit without buying a new unit as well. 

We upgraded a resale week this way last March - is this no longer possible? I've looked through all the stickies and I couldn't see a clear answer.

Thanks in advance for any definitive (or somewhat definitive) clarification.


----------



## Ken555

And keep in mind that the "perks" may change at any time, by unilateral action by Starwood. (As has been done in the past...).


----------



## DeniseM

Good point Ken - when they took away the automatic upgrade for 5 Star Elite owners that was a real blow.


----------



## DeniseM

I see in another thread that you want to buy more timeshare weeks for the sole purpose of converting to points every year.  I don't know of any TS system where this is a good value.  Why?  Because the conversion rate from timeshare to hotel points always benefits the developer - not the owner.  Take the money you would spend to become 5 Star Elite, put it in an interest bearing acct. and use the funds to rent hotel rooms, and you will come out ahead.  

If you want Starpoints - simply get a Starwood AMEX card, use it for all your spending, and pay it off every month.  You will get one Starpoint for every dollar spent.  AMEX has frequent offers where they offer an incentive of 20K Starpoints to open a new AMEX Acct.  You and you spouse can open separate Acct's and double the incentive.  If you put $30K a year on the card, you automatically get Starwood Gold member status.  If you transfer Starpoints to airline FF miles, you get 25K miles for every 20K SP's.


----------



## jarta

Denise,   ...   I agree with the idea of getting a Starwood Amex card.

However, the value of Starpoints depends on how you decide to use them.  Example: it took me about $140K to get to 5 Star Elite.  (Much less and much more flexible than buying a vacation home somewhere and TUG helped me knock off about $40K - or more - of the usual cost to get there by teaching me about retroing.)  I started out in March of 2008 and I ended up with just about 500K Starpoints from the purchases.

Last Summer I converted 180K Starpoints to US Air miles.  With the 20% Starwood bonus for transferring out and the 50% US Air bonus for transferring in, I ended up with 327.5K US Air air miles.  

I did this because my wife and I are going on a cruise to Istanbul, Greek Isles, Athens and the Black Sea this summer.  A friend frrom NY is also going on the same cruise and he is taking care of us for the ground reservations in Istanbul before and after the cruise.  So, I wanted to pay for his ticket to reciprocate.

With the 327.5K air miles,  I bought 2 business class round trip tickets to Istanbul from Chicago (and the one from NY for my friend) on Turkish Airlines *and* still had 87.5K US Air air miles left over.  *Plus*, I had 320K Starpoints still left over.  The value of the 3 business class, almost 12-hour flight, tickets - about $15K.

So, how would I have done better by putting the $140K in a bank account or CD the last 2 years?  I could maybe have bought the tickets.  But, I wouldn't have had the enjoyment of ownership of the weeks, the extra 320K Starpoints or the left over US Air miles.

Or, how about a Category 6 Starwood accommodation at the Danieli in Venice or the Prince de Galles in Paris for 4 days (with the 5th day free) and a SPG Plat. upgrade.  Is that not worth the Starpoints used?

Denise, it depends on how you would otherwise travel and how you use the Starpoints.  But, because a TUG member travels another way, he/she cannot make the blanket statement that converting to Starpoints is never a "good deal."  Sometimes, and for some travelers, it is a very good deal.

As I have pointed out to the OP, it's expensive to get to 5 Star Elite.  5 Star Elite is not for everyone.  If you would already travel to the places where you can use 5 Star Elite to save money, do it.  If you wouldn't, don't.     ...   eom


----------



## Ken555

It is apparent that definitive statements regarding point conversions can be confusing for the very reasons Jarta states. I agree that point conversions wouldn't work *for me* and appear to work for very few others, but unless you know the traveler and their habits, it's more appropriate to qualify a recommendation. Make sense?

I also used the US Air summer promotion to convert SPG points to US Air miles, though I don't (and can't) convert my t/s to points and simply use my AMEX SPG points. While I wasn't able to get the seats I wanted (on Swiss Air overseas), in the end I am using the 60k SPG points (112.5k US Air miles) for three Hawaii non-stop tickets on UAL (20k SPG points to Hawaii per ticket is a great deal). In fact, this was such a great deal I'll convert more in summer 2010 assuming they offer a similar promotion.


----------



## jarta

Ken555,   ...   Also, the statement is often made that it's never a good deal to convert Staroptions to Starpoints because "the conversion rate from timeshare to hotel points always benefits the developer - not the owner".

The benefit to the developer (some money coming in and ancillary sales) does not _per se_ exclude benefit to the the owner.  If that were true, no sale would ever benefit the buyer - unless the sale was a below cost loss leader.

Your and my Elite examples were air miles.

However, even on hotel reservations, the developer (Starwood) gets people already prone to vacationing at its hotels to reserve there using Starpoints.  The Starpoint value could still give the hotel owner a profit on the transaction.  But, that profit or benefit to the developer doesn't detract from the value to the 5 Star Elite person using the Starpoints for the reservation since the "cost" of the Starpoints is less than otherwise would be paid in making the reservation - in Europe and Asia, probably much, much less.

It need not be a zero sum game with 5 Star Elite owners being absolute losers because Starwood makes money.  When a seller sells at a sales price, the profit goes down - but rarely to less than zero.  When a buyer buys at a sales price, the money is saved - even if the seller makes a smaller profit.   ...   eom


----------



## DeniseM

I agree that first class overseas travelers can make good use of Starpoints, but in another thread, the OP has stated that he wants to buy into a system with the intention of converting to hotel points all the time.  He said he gets bored going to the same place more than once, and he travels with a family of 5.  Based on that scenario, I would not recommend becoming 5 Star Elite.


----------



## jarta

Denise, ... It still depends on where the OP goes and how he uses the Starpoints. Traveling with kids does not mean he doesn't often or regularly go to Asia or Europe or Dana Point or NYC (or anyplace else the Starpoints begin to mean something.  That doesn't even take into account the Platinum Elite upgrades.

Again, it depends how the Starpoints will be used.

*[jarta - I have repeatedly instructed you not to make your posts personal.  This is you last warning - the next time you make personal remarks about another poster, you will be suspended from TUG. DeniseM Moderator]*



> Be Courteous
> As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!


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## Troopers

jarta said:


> Again, it depends how the Starpoints will be used.



I agree.

There is a premium paid by the owner when converting but let's not forget that the owner receives a huge benefit in flexibility.  Flexibility in when to travel, where to travel, how long to travel and in what accommodations.


----------



## pointsjunkie

i have stated this before but the only reason we purchased our first timeshare at the Harborside was because the company offered the option to convert the timeshare TO STARPOINTS. we liked to know we had another option besides going to a timeshare, or using II. sometimes life happens and you can't get away and this left us with 6 years to use the starpoints.

i do convert 1 unit every year to points so i boost my starpoint account. i sleep well when i have 300,000 in the account.

starpoints have given many amazing vacations where there is no timeshare. it gives me the flexibility to stay in NYC any time i want and to go anywhere in the world anytime i want. the key word is FLEXIBILTY. i can go anytime i want which timeshares alone does not offer.

the conversion is not for everyone but it is the reason we started timesharing to begin with.


----------



## DanCali

jarta said:


> However, the value of Starpoints depends on how you decide to use them.  Example: it took me about $140K to get to 5 Star Elite.  (Much less and much more flexible than buying a vacation home somewhere and TUG helped me knock off about $40K - or more - of the usual cost to get there by teaching me about retroing.)  I started out in March of 2008 and I ended up with just about 500K Starpoints from the purchases.
> 
> 
> So, how would I have done better by putting the $140K in a bank account or CD the last 2 years?  I could maybe have bought the tickets.  But, I wouldn't have had the enjoyment of ownership of the weeks, the extra 320K Starpoints or the left over US Air miles.



You failed to mention that if one were to undertake your strategy, they lose most of their investment right off the bat. For example, you say you invested $140K. If you were to liquidate your holdings today, you could hardly get $70K on the resale market, assuming generous valuations of $30K for the 3BR Harborside, $20K for WKV, and $5K for SVV and each of the WLR (in reality it's probably around 20% less, or around $55K). Moreover, unlike the stock market, this situation is highly unlikely to rebound.

So I for one beg to differ - there are much better ways to invest the money, even if you have it.

While I read this thread in detail a few months ago and had a plan all worked out to make 5* and SPG Plat for life, I realized that it would be less of a hassle to just flush $50K down the toilet and settle for regular sized rooms when I flash my SPG gold card - so I kept my most of my money in mutual funds and bought a couple of resale properties to satisfy my vacation needs

As you said - 5* is not for everyone...


----------



## DeniseM

Not to mention that based on current maintenance fee increases & past history, in 10 years, *$11K in maintenance fees will be $22K, but you will still get the same number of Starpoints that you got for $11K, AND Starwood will have raised the number of points required for hotel stays multiple times.  

Or, worse case scenario, Starwood will eliminate the Elite program, and people who bought to convert to Starpoints will have multiple weeks of timeshares that they may or may not be able to use.

*$11K is what an elite owner recently posted that they paid in maintenance fees for 2010.


----------



## jarta

DanCali,   ...   What non-5 Star Elites fail to recognize is that the 5 Star Elites on TUG who have access to the Elite benefits do very little complaining here about how they got scammed and bamboozled by Starwood.

Have you ever asked yourself why?  Do you put it down to embarrassment?  I assure you it isn't.

You manage your investments the way you want to.  I'll manage mine the way I want to.  OK?    ...   eom


----------



## pointsjunkie

DanCali said:


> You failed to mention that if one were to undertake your strategy, they lose most of their investment right off the bat. For example, you say you invested $140K. If you were to liquidate your holdings today, you could hardly get $70K on the resale market, assuming generous valuations of $30K for the 3BR Harborside, $20K for WKV, and $5K for SVV and each of the WLR (in reality it's probably around 20% less, or around $55K). Moreover, unlike the stock market, this situation is highly unlikely to rebound.
> 
> So I for one beg to differ - there are much better ways to invest the money, even if you have it.
> 
> While I read this thread in detail a few months ago and had a plan all worked out to make 5* and SPG Plat for life, I realized that it would be less of a hassle to just flush $50K down the toilet and settle for regular sized rooms when I flash my SPG gold card - so I kept my most of my money in mutual funds and bought a couple of resale properties to satisfy my vacation needs
> 
> As you said - 5* is not for everyone...



i paid $120,000 for all my timeshares. so far i have had $78,000 worth of timeshare vacations( i went on rental sites to get prices for the weeks and size i rented to get the monetary value). i have many more trips to go and i rent out my units so my MF's have been paid for by the rentals for the last 3 years. in about 3 years my initial expense to purchase  the timeshares will equal the vacations i have taken so i will be travelling for nothing. i think that is a great return on my investment.

that does not include any of the trips i have taken using starpoints and  all the free airline tickets i have had.


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## jerseygirl

Barbra --

It's clear that you have mastered the art of maximizing points usage (have you seen the new George Clooney movie?!).  But, for most people, it's not realistic to use the retail price that "would have been charged" (although I must admit that I too love thinking I'm "saving" $10000+ when I use my WSJ weeks!).  The value, for most people, is what they would have spent.

Example -- We were at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya last week.  Until NY's Eve, when the resort reached 100% capacity, there were signs at the front desk stating "Rooms Available at the Following Rates."  Our room was $1200/night.  Would we have paid that?  No way.  It was a lovely resort -- we had a great time ... but there are much nicer places available all over the world for $1200 night.  Before we got into timesharing, we probably would have paid $3000/$3500 -- that was our normal weekly rate for a villa rental.  Now, we know we probably could have rented it from an owner for $1500 (or less).  What's the real savings?  $7000+ from the retail rate? I think it was more like $700 (our maint and exchange fees vs. renting from an owner).  And,  we have the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees vs renting from someone else who has the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees!  

I realize it calculates differently for luxury hotels as they are not available for discounted rates from owners, but the same principles apply.  A few years ago we went to Venice and paid a fortune to stay at the Bauer Hotel (no points).  If we had had Westin points to use at the time, we would have stayed there.  So -- I would agree that the money used for the Bauer Hotel could have counted toward "savings" since we would have saved "real money" by using points.  But, most people (including most Tuggers) don't routinely spend $10000 on a hotel --- and you can do that a whole lot of times before you exhaust the excess capital needed for the privilege of converting.  I think that's what Denise, DanCali and others are saying.  It doesn't make sense for most people -- only those who *routinely* spend $10000 on a hotel room -- and that's a fairly small population of people.

I'm using SPs for a few luxury hotels in Europe in March.  If I add up the "retail value," I'm sure it's close to, if not over, $10000.  But, if I were "paying out of pocket," I know my bill would be much closer to $3000-$5000.  So, that's all I consider the "savings" to be for using the SPs -- not the retail value.


----------



## DanCali

pointsjunkie said:


> i paid $120,000 for all my timeshares. so far i have had $78,000 worth of timeshare vacations( i went on rental sites to get prices for the weeks and size i rented to get the monetary value). i have many more trips to go and i rent out my units so my MF's have been paid for by the rentals for the last 3 years. in about 3 years my initial expense to purchase  the timeshares will equal the vacations i have taken so i will be travelling for nothing. i think that is a great return on my investment.
> 
> that does not include any of the trips i have taken using starpoints and  all the free airline tickets i have had.



jerseygirl beat me to the punch... there are plenty of ways to do this math - e.g. you can look at rental rates on atlantisfamilyfun and think you are saving a lot, but you can get the same week on RedWeek for 1/3 of the price. I don't doubt that you are able to optimize the usage and rentals of your timeshare portfolio, but I just can't see this as a viable financial "investment". It's like owning a stock that pays a 10% dividend but loses 30% every year...

On top of that, even if MFs were stable and valuations were stable, and doing this would not mean a 50%+ loss upfront - personally, I don't need to own 6 weeks of timeshares (up to 12 with lockoffs). I wish we could use all that but we vacation 2-3 weeks a year and even if I could rent some weeks to offset MFs, I have no desire to wake up and call at 6am PST countless times in order to reserve prime weeks and be a vacation landlord.

Loyalty and all that is nice, but I don't think the timeshare division of Starwood earned my loyalty. I'll stick with one Starwood property for now, and 1-2 Marriotts. Diversification has its benefits too.


----------



## DanCali

*5* Elite - Would You Do It All Over???*

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread. 

We are all points junkies to some extent and I'm sure there are many who have debated this investment. It would be nice to also hear from other SVN 5* tuggers - if you had a chance to undo it, would you do it all over again? Why or why not?


----------



## LisaRex

I think the biggest arguments against using TSs to gain 5* status are:

1) The MF increases which are way outpacing inflation
2) The fact that the number of SPs you receive for converting remains the same while the MFs increase.  So your conversion rate will dissipate as your MFs increase. 
3) Starwood is the devil incarnate. 

Well, okay, strike #3 as being slightly exaggerated.  

That being said, whether or not you're well versed in milking the system for all it's worth or a first class traveler who pays retail for everything, there are still valid reasons for pursuing 5* status.    

Besides, I've done lots of things in my life that don't make fiscal sense -- how many people here bought from the developer?? -- but make me happy.  For instance, last year I spent 40k Marriott Reward points for massages at the Camelback Inn, which was a horrible return on the points, but made me insanely happy.  

So I will definitely caution anyone who undertakes the 5* challenge to come in with their eyes wide open, crunch numbers. and educate themselves about the system and most especially the downsides.  But, at the end of the day it's their money to spend however they please and whether they are frivolous spenders or frugal vacationers, I hope they find something valuable here to help them make an informed decision.


----------



## jerseygirl

LisaRex said:


> Besides, I've done lots of things in my life that don't make fiscal sense -- how many people here bought from the developer?? -- but make me happy.  For instance, last year I spent 40k Marriott Reward points for massages at the Camelback Inn, which was a horrible return on the points, but made me insanely happy.



How true LisaRex!  Now, there's a good topic for a new thread -- things that are financially unsound but make one insanely happy!  I'll start:

-- My car makes me happy, but I would certainly survive if I had a Kia (my rental car this week).
-- My art makes me smile everyday -- even the pieces hidden in closets because I'm out of wall space (my family now prevents me from entering galleries).
-- A different winter coat would keep me warm, but mine makes me feel warm AND fuzzy!
-- Flying first class on long flights make me happy, but coach would get me there just fine.
-- A nice watch makes me happy, when a Timex would provide the same functionality.

I agree that getting to 5 Star makes sense for some people -- but I think the most important point you made is:



> 3) Starwood is the devil incarnate.



Oops .... no, I meant that your point about "coming in with eyes wide open" is the most important thing.  And, I think that Tug does an excellent job of pointing out both the benefits and the downsides to help a potential buyer make an educated decision about whether or not pursuing this path will make them insanely happy in the long term.


----------



## pointsjunkie

jerseygirl said:


> Barbra --
> 
> It's clear that you have mastered the art of maximizing points usage (have you seen the new George Clooney movie?!).  But, for most people, it's not realistic to use the retail price that "would have been charged" (although I must admit that I too love thinking I'm "saving" $10000+ when I use my WSJ weeks!).  The value, for most people, is what they would have spent.
> 
> Example -- We were at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya last week.  Until NY's Eve, when the resort reached 100% capacity, there were signs at the front desk stating "Rooms Available at the Following Rates."  Our room was $1200/night.  Would we have paid that?  No way.  It was a lovely resort -- we had a great time ... but there are much nicer places available all over the world for $1200 night.  Before we got into timesharing, we probably would have paid $3000/$3500 -- that was our normal weekly rate for a villa rental.  Now, we know we probably could have rented it from an owner for $1500 (or less).  What's the real savings?  $7000+ from the retail rate? I think it was more like $700 (our maint and exchange fees vs. renting from an owner).  And,  we have the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees vs renting from someone else who has the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees!
> 
> I realize it calculates differently for luxury hotels as they are not available for discounted rates from owners, but the same principles apply.  A few years ago we went to Venice and paid a fortune to stay at the Bauer Hotel (no points).  If we had had Westin points to use at the time, we would have stayed there.  So -- I would agree that the money used for the Bauer Hotel could have counted toward "savings" since we would have saved "real money" by using points.  But, most people (including most Tuggers) don't routinely spend $10000 on a hotel --- and you can do that a whole lot of times before you exhaust the excess capital needed for the privilege of converting.  I think that's what Denise, DanCali and others are saying.  It doesn't make sense for most people -- only those who *routinely* spend $10000 on a hotel room -- and that's a fairly small population of people.
> 
> I'm using SPs for a few luxury hotels in Europe in March.  If I add up the "retail value," I'm sure it's close to, if not over, $10000.  But, if I were "paying out of pocket," I know my bill would be much closer to $3000-$5000.  So, that's all I consider the "savings" to be for using the SPs -- not the retail value.



i did not go to retail sites, i went to TUG, and vacationtimesharerental.com to see what the exact week and size would cost me, that is how i got that amount. i would never pay retail for a timeshare. when we go we get 3-4 rooms per trip especially to the Harborside and that will add up quickly. we have gone to the Harborside 5 times, each trip would cost me about $10,000 or more if i rented from someone.


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## jarta

[jarta - you have been suspended for 2 weeks.  If you can follow the TUG rules, and moderators directions, you can return then. - DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## oneohana

DanCali said:


> Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread.
> 
> We are all points junkies to some extent and I'm sure there are many who have debated this investment. It would be nice to also hear from other SVN 5* tuggers - if you had a chance to undo it, would you do it all over again? Why or why not?



Hi Dan,

I've mostly been sitting on the sidelines just reading everyone's SVN posts.
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure if I'd do it all over again, but I'm making the best of the situation. I knew what I was signing up for, and the risks involved.

No one could have seen the mf increase coming. Maybe I'm a SVN snob, but I feel that the resorts that I have been to are above the other hotel based timeshares except 4 Seasons.

I'm just an ordinary construction worker who "invested" in vacations. That to me has been priceless.

What good is money if you don't do something meaningful with it? There is a balance.

Maybe 5* people just see things differently. Not right or wrong just different.

One Ohana


----------



## pointsjunkie

oneohana said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> I've mostly been sitting on the sidelines just reading everyone's SVN posts.
> Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure if I'd do it all over again, but I'm making the best of the situation. I knew what I was signing up for, and the risks involved.
> 
> No one could have seen the mf increase coming. Maybe I'm a SVN snob, but I feel that the resorts that I have been to are above the other hotel based timeshares except 4 Seasons.
> 
> I'm just an ordinary construction worker who "invested" in vacations. That to me has been priceless.
> 
> What good is money if you don't do something meaningful with it? There is a balance.
> 
> Maybe 5* people just see things differently. Not right or wrong just different.
> 
> One Ohana



i am 5* and i totally agree with you. am i upset about the MF"s getting out of control, absolutely.  the vacations i have been able to have with my family and friends are priceless. 
the only reason i gave a dollar amount was to give credence to owning so many and to see when a good break even point would be if i decided to sell any of them in the future. it is out in left field logic but it works for me. 

would i do it again, with the knowledge i have from TUG, i would own less in Orlando and more in AZ, so the MF's would be less but yes i would do it again. i travel once a month and if i didn't have them, and the starpoints, and the FF miles, i would travel maybe 2 times a year. and would not be staying in the caliber of places we stay in now. for us it has been a win, win investment.


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## JimT

My wife & I are discussing benefits of more weeks and 5*.  Have a couple questions:

1) Is there a chart of MF by resort location?

2) Any changes to the process Katherine outlined? (what a great post!)

3) Do you have a favorite SVO rep?  (Our rep left the company)

Thanks!!  Happy Holidays!!!

Jim


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## DeniseM

At the top of the forum there is a link for current maintenance fees.


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## Kildahl

For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on *any* developer purchase?


----------



## pointsjunkie

jarta said:


> Denise,   ...   I agree with the idea of getting a Starwood Amex card.
> 
> However, the value of Starpoints depends on how you decide to use them.  Example: it took me about $140K to get to 5 Star Elite.  (Much less and much more flexible than buying a vacation home somewhere and TUG helped me knock off about $40K - or more - of the usual cost to get there by teaching me about retroing.)  I started out in March of 2008 and I ended up with just about 500K Starpoints from the purchases.
> 
> Last Summer I converted 180K Starpoints to US Air miles.  With the 20% Starwood bonus for transferring out and the 50% US Air bonus for transferring in, I ended up with 327.5K US Air air miles.
> 
> I did this because my wife and I are going on a cruise to Istanbul, Greek Isles, Athens and the Black Sea this summer.  A friend frrom NY is also going on the same cruise and he is taking care of us for the ground reservations in Istanbul before and after the cruise.  So, I wanted to pay for his ticket to reciprocate.
> 
> With the 327.5K air miles,  I bought 2 business class round trip tickets to Istanbul from Chicago (and the one from NY for my friend) on Turkish Airlines *and* still had 87.5K US Air air miles left over.  *Plus*, I had 320K Starpoints still left over.  The value of the 3 business class, almost 12-hour flight, tickets - about $15K.
> 
> So, how would I have done better by putting the $140K in a bank account or CD the last 2 years?  I could maybe have bought the tickets.  But, I wouldn't have had the enjoyment of ownership of the weeks, the extra 320K Starpoints or the left over US Air miles.
> 
> Or, how about a Category 6 Starwood accommodation at the Danieli in Venice or the Prince de Galles in Paris for 4 days (with the 5th day free) and a SPG Plat. upgrade.  Is that not worth the Starpoints used?
> 
> Denise, it depends on how you would otherwise travel and how you use the Starpoints.  But, because a TUG member travels another way, he/she cannot make the blanket statement that converting to Starpoints is never a "good deal."  Sometimes, and for some travelers, it is a very good deal.
> 
> As I have pointed out to the OP, it's expensive to get to 5 Star Elite.  5 Star Elite is not for everyone.  If you would already travel to the places where you can use 5 Star Elite to save money, do it.  If you wouldn't, don't.     ...   eom



i totally agree with Jarta, 5* is not for everyone but the perks i have gotten and the many trips i take would not have been possible without being 5*.  i converted  1 unit to starpoints in 2010 and just converted enough starpoints to Southwest and i just got a companion pass which i will give to my Mom and the trips and adventures we can now go on is fantastic. i travel 1 -2 weeks per month in the winter and using all the timeshares makes it easy to do. 


i also converted starpoints to Usair during the 50% promo and have enough for 6 first class tickets to fly across the country or Hawaii or 12 coach tickets.

when you learn how to work the starpoints systems as well as the airline systems it is amazing of the places i can go.


----------



## tomandrobin

Kildahl said:


> For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on *any* developer purchase?



I got phantom options for a resort that is not even Starwood.


----------



## LisaRex

Kildahl said:


> For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on *any* developer purchase?



The way I understand it is that they're only given when you are close to reaching the next elite plateau.  For instance, say you are closing on a developer purchase and you need 452,000 SOs to get to 4* status, but your new purchase will only get you to 432,000 SOs. Starwood may award you 20,000 "phantom" SOs to get you to 4*.  The phantom SOs are for elite status perks only; you can't "spend" them to book TSs.  

I don't know what the max phantom points they'll award.


----------



## Kildahl

tomandrobin said:


> I got phantom options for a resort that is not even Starwood.



   Wow!


----------



## Kildahl

LisaRex said:


> The way I understand it is that they're only given when you are close to reaching the next elite plateau.  For instance, say you are closing on a developer purchase and you need 452,000 SOs to get to 4* status, but your new purchase will only get you to 432,000 SOs. Starwood may award you 20,000 "phantom" SOs to get you to 4*.  The phantom SOs are for elite status perks only; you can't "spend" them to book TSs.
> 
> I don't know what the max phantom points they'll award.



Thanks for the response, Lisa. Are they awarded in an amount just sufficient to get the buyer to the next elite level  or in a "rounded" number (ex: 20k,30l or ?k) such that you could use any excess toward the next plateau?


----------



## jarta

pj,   ...   "just converted enough starpoints to Southwest and i just got a companion pass which i will give to my Mom and the trips and adventures we can now go on is fantastic."

That was a great conversion program.  I rolled $1,200 of 2010 MF at Lagunamar into 12 round trip tickets anywhere SW files (6 for me and the companion pass for my wife).

SW has just announced a new Rapid Rewards program this week.  I think the program you (and I) got into will no longer be available.

The roll out of the new SW program is 3/1.  We will know more about the new program then.

The best perk in Starwood is the 10% bonus converting StarOptions to Starpoints for 4 and 5* Elites and then the 20% bonus when converting the StarPoints out to air miles.   ...   eom


----------



## DeniseM

Please note that this thread has been in moth balls for a year since Jan. 2010,  and then was posted to today.  Everything before post 147 is a year or more old, and may not be current info.  It's confusing, because you see posts/questions from Jan. - but they were from Jan. 2010, so they are not current questions or statements.


----------



## Sunset100

*How to get to 4 star elite cheap*

I own 2 weeks, 2 b room lock off at Westin Kaanapali North worth a total of 296,200 Star Options.  My goal is to achieve 4 star or maybe platinum status and maximize my starpoints connversions.  What is the cheapest way to do this, while keeping maintenance fees low as well?


----------



## DeniseM

Sunset100 said:


> I own 2 weeks, 2 b room lock off at Westin Kaanapali North worth a total of 296,200 Star Options.  My goal is to achieve 4 star or maybe platinum status and maximize my starpoints connversions.  What is the cheapest way to do this, while keeping maintenance fees low as well?



Honestly, there is very little reason to spend the money to reach 4 Star Elite.  You can usually buy Starpoints from Starwood for less then the cost of converting your timeshare to Starpoints.  If you have the time and money to reach 5 Star Elite, reaching Starwood Plat has some value for people who regularly stay in Starwood hotels, and travel abroad, but it's not for everyone.  The financial commitment to reach 5 Star Elite is in the range of $100,000 up front, and $10,000 per year.  That will buy a lot of hotel stays.


----------



## jarta

DeniseM,   ...   "You can usually buy Starpoints from Starwood for less then the cost of converting your timeshare to Starpoints."

I'm not sure what conversion factor you are using, but for a 4 Star Elite (what you were replying about):

148,100 StarOptions usually converts to 72,000 Starpoints.

There is no charge for a 4 or 5 Star Elite to convert and it can be done every year up to October 1 of the use year.

When a conversion is made, Starwood gives 4 and 5 Star Elites a 10% Starpoint bonus.

4 and 5 Star Elites own more than 2 weeks so the total SVN fee for the year is capped.  In the numbers below it is disregarded.  I own 7 Starwood weeks.  The SVN fee per week for me is pretty minimal.

My Platinum Lagunamar 2-br 2011 MF is $1,244.05.  Cost per Starpoint = $1,244.05/79,200 = $0.0157. (I have 3 of them.)

My Platinum WKV 2-br 2011 MF is $1,211.08.  Cost per Starpoint = $1,211.08/79,200 = $0.0153. (I have 1 of them.)

Usually Starpoints are sold by Starwood for 3.5 cents per Starpoint.  Sales are usually 25% off.  So the price then is 2.625 cents per Starpoint.

You are correct for Hawaii.  Nobody who owns there should convert.  But, Hawaii is unusual.

As another example, my Platinum 3-br at Harborside converts (with th bonus) to 113,520 Starpoints.  The 2011 MF is $2,734.94.  Harborside has notoriously high MF.  The cost per Staroption converted would still only be 2.41 cents.

Plus (and not just for Elites), upon transferring the Starpoints out to air miles programs, Starwood gives a 20% bonus.  So, 100K Starpoints transfers as 120K Starpoints.  If you make the transfer when the receiving air miles program is having a special, the 120K Starpoints can be increased by 50-100% by the airline.  All this further reduces your cost per air mile.

Buying voluntary and using II for trades can result in some terrific deals.  But, so can buying within the SVN and making Starpoint conversions when you are 4 or 5 Star Elite.     ...   eom


----------



## RoshiGuy

Sunset100 said:


> I own 2 weeks, 2 b room lock off at Westin Kaanapali North worth a total of 296,200 Star Options.  My goal is to achieve 4 star or maybe platinum status and maximize my starpoints connversions.  What is the cheapest way to do this, while keeping maintenance fees low as well?



Were these 2 weeks purchased from Starwood? If so, you just need a few more SOs to get to 4-Star. However, I'd purchase a resale unit (SDO true plat or SMV plat) that you can retro to give you more bang for the buck. Cancun (EY Gold or EOY Plat) would be the new developer purchase to retro and get to 4-Star. You'll end up with approx. 518,000 SOs for "additional" outlay of approx. $25K and annual increase in MF of approx. $2000 - $2500. 4-Star gives you all key Elite benefits other than SPG Plat (which only 5-Star's get).

Assuming your 2 weeks are resale weeks, you have to buy 2 EOY Cancun weeks to retro these and get to 4-Star. You'll end up with 444,000 SOs annually for an additional outlay of approx. $45,000 and increase in annual MF of approx. $1500.

Depending on how you use your TS, this may or may not be worth it.


----------



## DeniseM

jarta said:


> You are correct for Hawaii.  Nobody who owns there should convert.  But, Hawaii is unusual.



That's my point exactly - the OP owns two 2 bdms. in Hawaii.  Converting to Starpoints is never going to be a good deal for him.

If he wants more Starpoints I'd recommend that he:

1)  Apply for a Starwood AMEX in both his name and his spouse's name, and start making maximum use of the cards, and paying them off every month so he has no interest charges - we essentially use ours like a debit card and charge every cent on them.  Since not every merchant accepts AMEX, we have a backup Hawaiian Air VISA that earns Hawaiian Airline Miles, that we use where the AMEX is not accepted.  I recommend 2 Accts., because they usually offer a nice chunk of Starpoints as an incentive to open the Acct., and he can double the incentive points by opening two Accts.

2)  When Starwood has Starpoints on sale, which they do at least once a year, he can maximize his puchase by opening SPG Accts. for everyone in his immediately family, and buying the Max. number of Starpoints allowed per person.  

Using this strategy, he can accomplish his goals of having more Starpoints for a tiny fraction of the cost of reaching 4 Star Elite.

His only cost, besides buying the SP's, will be a $50 per year service charge for the AMEX Cards.

If he wants to go clear to 5 Star Elite, that's a different strategy, but he said his goal is to reach 4 Star Elite.


----------



## RoshiGuy

DeniseM said:


> If he wants to go clear to 5 Star Elite, that's a different strategy, but he said his goal is to reach 4 Star Elite.



Somehow there's a 5-Star "myth" that has been created on TUG. Namely, there is something unique about 5-Star that "might" make going for it worthwhile whereas going for 4-Star does not make sense.

The only material difference in benefits between the two is SPG Plat status. Yet, 5-Star requires almost *twice *the number of SOs versus 4-Star. So you have additional upfront expense plus significantly higher annual MF.

If 4-Star does not make sense, neither does 5-Star. But either of these might work very well for people (like me) who need the flexibility of converting into SPs.


----------



## Fredm

RoshiGuy said:


> Somehow there's a 5-Star "myth" that has been created on TUG. Namely, there is something unique about 5-Star that "might" make going for it worthwhile whereas going for 4-Star does not make sense.
> 
> The only material difference in benefits between the two is SPG Plat status. Yet, 5-Star requires almost *twice *the number of SOs versus 4-Star. So you have additional upfront expense plus significantly higher annual MF.
> 
> If 4-Star does not make sense, neither does 5-Star. But either of these might work very well for people (like me) who need the flexibility of converting into SPs.



None of it makes sense (4* or 5*) if the owner cannot effectively use the underlying timeshares. If they can, then it is simply a matter of how to most cost effectively get to the desired level.


----------



## Ken555

Fredm said:


> None of it makes sense (4* or 5*) if the owner cannot effectively use the underlying timeshares. If they can, then it is simply a matter of how to most cost effectively get to the desired level.



It's nice to see a dose of reality in these threads now and then. Thanks, Fred.


----------



## jarta

DeniseM,   ...   "That's my point exactly - the OP owns two 2 bdms. in Hawaii. Converting to Starpoints is never going to be a good deal for him."

He didn't ask about converting Hawaii Staroptions to Starpoints.  He asked how he could cheaply get to 4 Star Elite.

You responded that there is very little reason to do so and gave, as an example, that you can buy Starpoints for the cost of converting.

I responded with examples of places I own where the conversion costs much less than buying Starpoints.  They, Lagunamar and WKV, are prime examples where Sunset100 could make a purchase to get to 4 Star Elite.  (There are others, like a ski week at Mountain Vista, which have an even better ratio of Starpoints for SVN StarOptions and very low MF.)  

Why not buy a 148,100 Mountain Vista or a WKV or a true Plat. SDO on ebay and retro it with a Lagunamar EOY purchase for $21,500?  Then go to Hawaii and convert the other two.

Nevertheless, your premise (can buy Starpoints for less than you can convert) is just, plain wrong.

As Fredm points out, use matters.  II produces some terrific bargains in trades.  But, not everyone is solely interested in using purchases to trade in II all the time.   ...   eom


----------



## RoshiGuy

jarta said:


> Nevertheless, your premise (can buy Starpoints for less than you can convert) is just, plain wrong.



It's not quite clear to me how the premise is plain wrong? I think your math is fuzzy - you're simply using MF and completely ignoring the loss in value of upfront $$ as well as potential long-term interest/appreciation if the same $$ were invested. Take your Lagunamar example and run the numbers again for a 10 year period ... cost will be two or three times what you've estimated.

I happen to like SPs because they provide flexibility in how to use my TS. But I recognize that I'm paying for this flexibility; there's no free lunch here.


----------



## RoshiGuy

jarta said:


> My Platinum Lagunamar 2-br 2011 MF is $1,244.05.  Cost per Starpoint = $1,244.05/79,200 = $0.0157. (I have 3 of them.)



The above conclusion is just plain wrong. Classic example of fuzzy math.

Lagunamar Plat costs approx. $43K. Let's assume a 20 year holding period. At the end of 20 years the TS may generously be worth $10K. So you've lost $33K over 20 years; approx. $1650/year. Also, a conservative estimate of 20-year appreciation for investing this money is 4%/year; approx. $1700.

So the true cost of Lagunamar SPs is closer to 1250+1650+1700 or almost 6c/SP, several times what you estimated.


----------



## jarta

RoshiGuy,   ...   I calculated the actual cost of StarOption to Starpoint conversions now from facts I know are true now.  My post contains the facts now.  Which ones are wrong?  What's fuzzy?

The statement that you can buy Starpoints now for less than it costs by Staroption conversion didn't say anything about that being the case 10 years from now.  DeniseM was talking about the here and now.

I can't calculate assumptions for the actual costs, existence of programs and their ratios, economy 10 years from now (inflation, stagflation, depression), price of gas, tax policy of Hawaii, mergers or even whether any of the airlines or the SVN will still exist.  Too many assumptions that far out for me to get my little brain around.  

In 10 years the entire Maldives may be under water from global warming.  lol!  Most weather forecasts don't go beyond 10 days!

But, likewise, I can't say that anyone's assumptions about what will be happening 10 years from now are wrong.  I just don't see them being very relevant to today's statement that purchasing costs less than converting for a 4 Star Elite.   ...   eom


----------



## RoshiGuy

Jarta, I am talking about here and now costs. Not about 10 year or 20 year costs.

If you want to continue to assume that only MF matters and both depreciation and opportunity cost should be ignored, so be it.

If a person leases a new BMW for $300/month (after putting $10,000 down payment) and tells all his friends about the great deal ... "I'm only paying $300/month" ... what would we say?


----------



## DeniseM

This is what the OP said:



> My goal is to achieve 4 star or maybe platinum status and *maximize my starpoints connversions*.



Sure sounds like he plans to convert to Starpoints to me, since there is little other reason to desire to be 4 Star Elite.


----------



## jarta

RoshiGuy,   ...   "I am talking about here and now costs. Not about 10 year or 20 year costs."

You are talking about prorated unrealized profits or losses from a real estate transaction as being costs of a particular transaction (conversion) years separate from and unrelated to the actual acquisition or disposition of the real estate.

If you bought a property for $500K ten years ago and, over the 10 years it inflated to a market value of $1M, and your mortgage and taxes ran $50K per year did you live cost free for those 10 years?  Should the yearly increase in market value offset your mortgage or property tax deductions?  What happens to your cost if in 2011 the unrealized gain or loss disappears?  Is the change in unrealized gain or loss 100% cost during the year it happens?  If it isn't don't all the financials for the preceding 10 years have to be restated?

Lots of people who work with numbers for a living would say you are wrong to count costs that way.  Ordinary people can't prorate unrealized capital gains or losses that way against revenue or expenses.

I just used the costs attributable to the actual conversion transaction as the costs of converting.  I think I am right to do so.  You can think otherwise.   ...   eom


----------



## LisaRex

Buying SPs off the website for 3.5 cents per point (less if you buy during their year-end discount) doesn't cost you any $$ upfront, nor are you committed to buying them year after year.  

You cannot just pretend that the upfront money doesn't enter the equation for comparison purposes because you're no longer comparing apples to apples.

The only real downside to buying SPs from SPG vs. converting a WKORV timeshare (assuming you can get something worth more than the 3.5 cents you paid) is that there is a limit as to how many you can buy per year on SPG.com.  If you have a spouse, you can each double that, but it's still less than the 72M you're going to get for converting.


----------



## RoshiGuy

jarta said:


> Lots of people who work with numbers for a living would say you are wrong to count costs that way.  Ordinary people can't prorate unrealized capital gains or losses that way against revenue or expenses.
> 
> I just used the costs attributable to the actual conversion transaction as the costs of converting.  I think I am right to do so.  You can think otherwise.   ...   eom



Ask anyone who works with numbers for a living about how to estimate true costs. I have absolutely no doubt that they will say it needs to include MF plus depreciation plus opportunity costs. Are the depreciation/opportunity costs "uncertain"? Of course they are. However ignoring them is like closing one's eyes; feeling the tail of a donkey and concluding that one has caught a snake.

DeniseM was right when she said that it is cheaper to simply buy SPs from Starwood rather than purchase a TS for the purpose of converting. Your math suggesting otherwise is fuzzy because it ignores important facts pertinent to the situation.

As LisaRex points out the limitation to purchasing SPs is that this is restricted to 20K per person which does not go very far either for hotel stays or airline tickets.


----------



## DanCali

RoshiGuy said:


> The above conclusion is just plain wrong. Classic example of fuzzy math.
> 
> Lagunamar Plat costs approx. $43K. Let's assume a 20 year holding period. At the end of 20 years the TS may generously be worth $10K. So you've lost $33K over 20 years; approx. $1650/year. Also, a conservative estimate of 20-year appreciation for investing this money is 4%/year; approx. $1700.
> 
> So the true cost of Lagunamar SPs is closer to 1250+1650+1700 or almost 6c/SP, several times what you estimated.






jarta said:


> Lots of people who work with numbers for a living would say you are wrong to count costs that way.  Ordinary people can't prorate unrealized capital gains or losses that way against revenue or expenses.
> 
> I just used the costs attributable to the actual conversion transaction as the costs of converting.  I think I am right to do so.  You can think otherwise.   ...   eom






RoshiGuy said:


> Ask anyone who works with numbers for a living about how to estimate true costs. I have absolutely no doubt that they will say it needs to include MF plus depreciation plus opportunity costs. Are the depreciation/opportunity costs "uncertain"? Of course they are. However ignoring them is like closing one's eyes; feeling the tail of a donkey and concluding that one has caught a snake.



Jarta - I agree with RoshiGuy here on this issue. It is a fact that those $43K Lagunamar weeks are worth less than $10K now (you don't need to project out for 20 years...). It'd take decades of Starpoint conversions to recover this $30K+ cost based on the estimated savings of 1.2 cents per Starpoint converted (your estimated cost of 1.6 cents versus the cost to buy them from Starwood for 2.8 cents during the bi-annual "sale"). And this is stll ignoring that those $43 could have actually earned some interest over time too...


----------



## tomandrobin

DeniseM said:


> Honestly, there is very little reason to spend the money to reach 4 Star Elite.  You can usually buy Starpoints from Starwood for less then the cost of converting your timeshare to Starpoints.  If you have the time and money to reach 5 Star Elite, reaching Starwood Plat has some value for people who regularly stay in Starwood hotels, and travel abroad, but it's not for everyone.  The financial commitment to reach 5 Star Elite is in the range of $100,000 up front, and $10,000 per year.  That will buy a lot of hotel stays.



We are 5* and our MFs for 2011 is $7575.14 for our five units.

Total Available StarOptions:
2012: 	694,300


----------



## Fredm

RoshiGuy said:


> Ask anyone who works with numbers for a living about how to estimate true costs. I have absolutely no doubt that they will say it needs to include MF plus depreciation plus opportunity costs. Are the depreciation/opportunity costs "uncertain"? Of course they are. However ignoring them is like closing one's eyes; feeling the tail of a donkey and concluding that one has caught a snake.
> 
> DeniseM was right when she said that it is cheaper to simply buy SPs from Starwood rather than purchase a TS for the purpose of converting. Your math suggesting otherwise is fuzzy because it ignores important facts pertinent to the situation.
> 
> As LisaRex points out the limitation to purchasing SPs is that this is restricted to 20K per person which does not go very far either for hotel stays or airline tickets.



I usually stay out of these "cost" discussions because they are not as straightforward as some portray.
Nonetheless, a few additional variables to consider when evaluating the ultimate cost and value of a timeshare:

Residual Value.  Some assume zero, some less than zero. Others make an assumption based on current "market" value.
Roshiguy and DanCali call the cost "depreciation".
At some point in the future the actual cost must be reckoned with. How it is reconciled remains unknown, and is based on the circumstances at the time.
For example, owners A, B, and C buy timeshares at a cost of $75,000. Each use them for 5 years, then sell.
Owner A sells for $25,000. Has no offsets and experiences a real 10k/year devaluation.
Owner B sells for $25,000. Needs a 50k loss to offset gains elsewhere, in the year sold.
Owner C  waits outside the sale center until he sees a couple walking out with a new owners package. Approaches the new owner and offers to sell them the same timeshare for $50,000. The new owner accepts the offer, and recinds the purchase.

Although price and ownership term was different, each of the above examples are actual events we observed in the past 90 days.
Bottom line is that one should not assume unrealized capital cost until it is sold.

Opportunity Cost. This is perhaps the most misused term in timeshare cost "analysis". It is theoretical, and almost always has no basis in reality. It presumes that in the absence of the discretionary timeshare purchase, there would not be an alternative cost of accommodations and travel. 
If this is the case, there would *no* financial justification
for the timeshare purchase in the first place. 
Almost always, the alternative costs will exceed any return on retained capital.

Which brings me to Subjective Value.
This is a highly individual perception of value (not cost).
Interestingly (to me anyway) those that can truly claim a real opportunity cost vs a timeshare purchase, are those most likely to place a high subjective value to issues like "VIP Status", and other preferential conveniences. It is hard to quantify in purely dollar terms.
The more cost conscious among us watch our dollars more closely.
I am reminded of a very talented, energetic, highly successful surgeon I am acquainted with. Vacation cost is not an issue he concerns himself with. He pays for the pampering which he believes he needs to escape the pressures of his profession.
Others handle the mundane details of arranging it.
His reality is different than mine, or most I know. But, it is his reality.
While this is a more extreme example of subjective value, it tends to make the point. There is a subjective value to Elite Status that cannot always be debated on purely financial terms. The value is in the eyes of the beholder.

I am not debating the validity of the analytical approach taken by some. It is their reality, and it how they choose to view the matter.
I do, however, take exception to the notion that theirs is the only "right" cost analysis.


----------



## jarta

DanCali,   ...   Since you are a Kellogg person, I hope you understand this.

A transaction cost is a transaction cost.  There are many, many transactions which can occur over the time period a timeshare is owned.  Each transaction has its own cost.  My point is that it is *inappropriate* to add all opportunity costs to each single transaction in determining the cost of the transaction.

I have often posted that investing in a timeshare is an overall awful economic investment.  On an overall basis that's unarguable!  

The same is true of purchasing a car.  You can ride public transportation for less money.  You can purchase a BMW, SUV, hybrid, small car or large car.  When you fill it up at the gas station, your overall cost can be calculated as the gas, cost of the car and the opportunity cost.  But, the cost of the gas is the cost of the gas for the transactioon taking place.

You could calculate the cost of eating out while owning a timeshare as much larger by allocating the purchase price against the meal.  You could allocate the cost of swim fins as much greater than they are by allocating the cost of the purchase against the cost of the swim fins.  You could even allocate the purchase price against the cost of gas to get to the resort - thus upping the transportation cost.

Every single transaction related to timeshare ownership and use can have the purchase price allocated against it to up the cost of the individual transaction.  The cost of every single aspect of timesharing can be inflated (and thus easily misstated) by allocating all other costs into it.

My point is that it's not the way real estate cost is figured in the world of accounting.  And, it's as much fuzzy math as the timeshare salesperson deducting the cost of heart attacks not suffered due to relaxing timeshare vacations to justify purchase price.

So, you do it your way, but understand that once allocated against one timeshare transaction, it is improper to allocate the same cost against another transaction.  I don't need to do all that bookkeeping to know that overall a timeshare in a poor economic decision.  

But, so is taking numerous vacations by buying a vacation house.  I was faced with the decision of which to do.  I chose the timeshare route (for many reasons you would probably not consider valid).  I'm happy with what I did despite the fact that I will absolutely suffer an economic loss if or when I sell.

But, the cost of the transaction of converting Staroptions to Starpoints is, in many instances, less than the cost of the transaction of buying Starpoints.   ...   eom


----------



## RoshiGuy

Fredm said:


> Bottom line is that one should not assume unrealized capital cost until it is sold.



A developer TS purchase (which is what is needed to get to 4* or 5*) is worth much less the moment you make the purchase. Choosing to ignore this "unrealized" loss distorts the true cost associated with the TS purchase (and conversion into SPs). People can make different assumptions about how much this loss will be but any newbie thinking about this shouldn't be led to conclude that it's okay to ignore this cost.  



Fredm said:


> Opportunity Cost. This is perhaps the most misused term in timeshare cost "analysis". It is theoretical, and almost always has no basis in reality. It presumes that in the absence of the discretionary timeshare purchase, there would not be an alternative cost of accommodations and travel.
> If this is the case, there would *no* financial justification
> for the timeshare purchase in the first place.
> Almost always, the alternative costs will exceed any return on retained capital.



Fred, opportunity cost has nothing to do with alternative cost of accomodation. IMO, you're mixing apples and oranges here; not incurring alternative cost of accomodation is the "benefit" (savings) that come with a TS purchase. Opportunity cost is simply what one might reasonably have expected to do with the money used to purchase the TS. If the money would be stored in a mattress, opportunity cost is zero; if kept in a bank checking account, again close to zero at current rates. Most financial planners would suggest that using 4% for a long-term return on investing this money is reasonable.



Fredm said:


> I am not debating the validity of the analytical approach taken by some. It is their reality, and it how they choose to view the matter.
> I do, however, take exception to the notion that theirs is the only "right" cost analysis.



I'm not suggesting that my "numbers" are exactly right. Each person needs to make assumptions they are comfortable with when it comes to expected capital loss and opportunity cost. I am suggesting however that ignoring these two pieces is wrong analysis and an example of fuzzy math.


----------



## DeniseM

RoshiGuy said:


> As LisaRex points out the limitation to purchasing SPs is that this is restricted to 20K per person which does not go very far either for hotel stays or airline tickets.



A family of four can buy 80K Starpoints per year, and most people should be able to charge $30K per year on an AMEX Credit Card with optimal use.  (Well, anyone who has the income to support the costs of 4 Star Elite, anyway.)

So that would be 110,000 Starpoints a year.  Converted to airline miles with most airlines (x 1.25) that's  137,500 miles.  With no upfront investment!

Obviously there are many ways to approach this, but if the OP only wants to buy more timeshares so he has more Starpoints, there are far less costly ways to do it. 

Do I do this personally? - Nope - We have found that it is very easy to stay in 4 and 5 Star Hotels using Priceline and we usually pay $75 - $150 per night - always far below the lowest rate available.  Do I get the pent house suite?  Nope - but even the standard room in a 4 or 5 Star hotel is going to be a nice room.  Again - this is the frugal approach - but it works well for those of us who are conservative spenders.

Looking at the big picture, isn't it nice that timesharing works both for conservative spenders and people with bigger budgets?  There are some here that scoff at the frugal approach, but I think we need a balance on TUG.  If someone has the time and resources to become Elite and make it work for them - more power to them!  But there are lower cost ways to be successful as well, and we provide the best info. to a newbie, if they know all their alternatives.  YMMV


----------



## DeniseM

What are the yearly maintenance fees for 4 and 5 Star Elite Owners? - *2011 Info.*


----------



## Fredm

RoshiGuy said:


> A developer TS purchase (which is what is needed to get to 4* or 5*) is worth much less the moment you make the purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roshi, thanks for your comments.
> 
> Of course a developer purchase is "worth" much less the moment it is purchased.
> This is the 5* Elite thread. Not timeshare economics for newby's. Please consider my remarks a (perhaps poor) attempt at nuance for those who are actually considering it.
> If my contribution/response missed the mark, I apologize.
> 
> If this was a newby situation we would simply advise them to buy a resale. Calculating rent vs. own scenarios would be pertinent.  Opportunity cost would then be a real (if minor) consideration in the comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choosing to ignore this "unrealized" loss distorts the true cost associated with the TS purchase (and conversion into SPs). People can make different assumptions about how much this loss will be but any newbie thinking about this shouldn't be led to conclude that it's okay to ignore this cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, context. *No one* in this thread has come here without understanding resale market values. In fact, *all* here who consider ways to attain 5* do so from a retro-qualification perspective.
> I never suggested the depreciated value should be ignored.
> I said  "Some assume zero, some less than zero. Others make an assumption based on current "market" value."
> 
> I also said  "At some point in the future the actual cost must be reckoned with. How it is reconciled remains unknown, and is based on the circumstances at the time."
> I then gave examples of how it may vary in individual circumstances, given the same "market".
> 
> This was my attempt at offering something to consider beyond the simple way it is too often portrayed.
> I assumed that each individual can take it from there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting that my "numbers" are exactly right. *Each person needs to make assumptions they are comfortable with *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course. I just think we sometimes get too wrapped up in boiler plate response, and lose sight of the actual issue being discussed.  Hence, the opening comment of my prior post: " I usually stay out of these "cost" discussions because they are not as straightforward as some portray".
> 
> The considerations for pursuing 5* Elite, or not, are best expressed in sophisticated uses of the system.
> 
> I have repeatedly advocated that an owner should be sure  they can effectively use the underlying timeshares associated with Elite Status. DeniseM offered a suggestion for alternative ways to secure StarPoints. I assume the info is digested and considered along with other options.
> jarta points out that use matters when determining potential cost/benefit. He has shared how he leverages StarPoints in his utilization of the system.
> Etc, etc.
> 
> Not mentioned in the discussion is perhaps the most critical financial  consideration in buying a timeshare primarily for its StarPoints value.
> While the points are fixed contractually at time of purchase, what they will buy is not.
> 
> I guess I just give an existing multi-share Starwood owner credit for being able to understand how they could, or should not, spend $100,000 + to their advantage.
> I suspect many do so for other than strictly financial reasons.
Click to expand...


----------



## CTtraveler

*Getting started - first post!*

Have been reading SVO TUG posts for about a month now

Am looking to make the plunge in purchasing SVO timeshares, with a goal of eventually achieving 5* status (currently am Starwood Platinum via work travel but am hoping to travel less going forward so want to find a way to replicate it)

Looking for opinions on best properties to build a portfolio towards reaching 5*

Have read SDKath's guide To 5* Platinum and a bunch of related posts but am still a relative newbie

Who I am:
Busy professional (but 4-6 weeks of vacation a year and want to use every bit of it), mid 30s, married (wife also works and has similar vacation allotment)  2 kids (toddlers), high disposable income, live in NY Metro area (CT), frequently travel with extended family, we like checking out new places but are by nature creatures of habit, prefer eating out for dinner and staying in for breakfast with simple lunch, vacation schedule flexible (although imagine would change to fit kids' schools in a few yrs), both golfers, love the beach (and anywhere warm to get away from CT winters)

We recently stayed in WKORV-N for 2 weeks and loved it, although it is quite a trek from JFK - we thought it was doable annually but would need to go for more than a week at a time

Places I am considering:
WKV, WLR, WMH, SDO, SBP (driveable?), WKORV(S or N - to be guaranteed a spot during prime vacation times - would even consider event weeks 51 & 52 as it seems seems impossible to get otherwise via exchange), HRA (for similar reasons as WKORV), WSJ (same?)

MF/$ is main consideration, given that I plan to retro any resale purchases via developer purchase, but like the idea of diversifying in places I would be comfortable having to go every yr in case SVN changes, etc

(to that point, is WLR a true deeded property being in Mexico?  Legal differences vs US timeshares in deed?)

Any advice on building the best portfolio, assuming I would try to achieve 5* elite by buying 5 weeks (all 2br lo or larger) - particularly which I should buy 
resale vs developer to retro and in which order?  And does anyone have a good Starwood rep they would recommend to use?

thanks to all in advance!


----------



## RoshiGuy

Fredm said:


> If this was a newby situation we would simply advise them to buy a resale. Calculating rent vs. own scenarios would be pertinent.  Opportunity cost would then be a real (if minor) consideration in the comparison.



Fred, the thread had moved slightly OT. Poster who owned 2 units asked about the best approach to getting SPs and Elite status. DeniseM correctly pointed out that doing this to convert into SPs can be more expensive than simply buying the SPs from Starwood. Jarta disagreed. That is when we got into the OT discussion on how to calculate the correct cost of SPs, with my perspective being that one should not ignore depreciation and opportunity cost in determining the cost of their SPs.


----------



## RoshiGuy

CTtraveler said:


> Any advice on building the best portfolio, assuming I would try to achieve 5* elite by buying 5 weeks (all 2br lo or larger) - particularly which I should buy resale vs developer to retro and in which order?



Given your context, I would buy resale - HRA, WSJ and an SDO (true plat) or SMV (plat). Then retro these 3 units with 3 EOY Lagunamar units. You end up with 4.5 weeks and enough SOs for 5*.

Assumption would be that you'd regularly go to HRA & WSJ which are great locations/resorts, easy to get to from JFK, very difficult to get into via SOs; and then use SOs/SPs for other destinations.


----------



## CTtraveler

RoshiGuy said:


> Given your context, I would buy resale - HRA, WSJ and an SDO (true plat) or SMV (plat). Then retro these 3 units with 3 EOY Lagunamar units. You end up with 4.5 weeks and enough SOs for 5*.
> 
> Assumption would be that you'd regularly go to HRA & WSJ which are great locations/resorts, easy to get to from JFK, very difficult to get into via SOs; and then use SOs/SPs for other destinations.



Thanks RoshiGuy

SDKath's original post mentioned Hawaii and Carribean resales needing $40k to retro - is that still the case and if so does that make eoy Lagunamar developer purchase still a possibility to retro HRA and WSJ?


----------



## YYJMSP

CTtraveler said:


> Thanks RoshiGuy
> 
> SDKath's original post mentioned Hawaii and Carribean resales needing $40k to retro - is that still the case and if so does that make eoy Lagunamar developer purchase still a possibility to retro HRA and WSJ?



I believe that current EOY pricing at WLR ($18,900?) is below the $20K threshold for requalifying...

I think it's the same issue for EOY's at any of the other mainland properties (WDW, WMH) being priced just below the $20K boundary.


----------



## CTtraveler

RoshiGuy said:


> Given your context, I would buy resale - HRA, WSJ and an SDO (true plat) or SMV (plat). Then retro these 3 units with 3 EOY Lagunamar units. You end up with 4.5 weeks and enough SOs for 5*.
> 
> Assumption would be that you'd regularly go to HRA & WSJ which are great locations/resorts, easy to get to from JFK, very difficult to get into via SOs; and then use SOs/SPs for other destinations.





YYJMSP said:


> I believe that current EOY pricing at WLR ($18,900?) is below the $20K threshold for requalifying...



Is there a recent thread showing current developer pricing and inventory?

Last I saw was Denise's from 2008

Also, would anyone be able to recommend a good broker for resales?


----------



## RoshiGuy

CTtraveler said:


> SDKath's original post mentioned Hawaii and Carribean resales needing $40k to retro - is that still the case and if so does that make eoy Lagunamar developer purchase still a possibility to retro HRA and WSJ?



You're right, it will not work; I overlooked this twist. Separately, my understanding of EOY Lagunamar pricing was that it was over $20K but if it is now lower then there's another strike against using that.

Have you considered another option. Buy HRA or WSJ resale but don't retro this. The resorts suit your travel preference and fit the "buy where you want to go" dictum. Then buy SDO (true plat) and SMV and use Lagunamar to retro these. You'd get 4* plus have HRA and/or WSJ in your portfolio. This will probably be more cost effective than trying to get the Caribbean units retroed.


----------



## pathways25

CTtraveler said:


> Thanks RoshiGuy
> 
> SDKath's original post mentioned Hawaii and Carribean resales needing $40k to retro - is that still the case and if so does that make eoy Lagunamar developer purchase still a possibility to retro HRA and WSJ?



My strategy has been to buy resale voluntary resorts such as SDO (3-season) and SMV and developer mandatory resorts such as WKV.  I do this for 2 reasons:  First, WKV only loses about 60% of its value after purchase (based on today's prices) while WLR is losing 95% and second, this minimizes annual maintenance fees.  Of course, if you plan on going to HRA and WSJ frequently, it makes more sense to own at those resorts as they are hard to exchange into.

PM me if you'd like the contact info for my rep.  He's helped me with 3 retros so far and I'm very happy with him.


----------



## YYJMSP

CTtraveler said:


> Is there a recent thread showing current developer pricing and inventory?



Here's a http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1034474&postcount=1 link back to the pricing we were offered just after Christmas...


----------



## SDKath

YYJMSP said:


> I believe that current EOY pricing at WLR ($18,900?) is below the $20K threshold for requalifying...
> 
> I think it's the same issue for EOY's at any of the other mainland properties (WDW, WMH) being priced just below the $20K boundary.



You can get around that easily by either fixing the certain week you want or fixing the unit.  It will cost you 10% more but is well worth it to be able to retro a unit.  I prefer fixing the week (basically making it like an "event week" and then if you chose not to go that week or use SOs or SPs, they will just put you into the float week for your season).

Katherine


----------



## ketamine

*so close to 4**

Does anyone have suggestions on how to easily get from 303,150  to 359,000
to get to 4* elite status?

We just had our Owner Update and of course they wanted to buy here in Princeville.....not goin' to do that.... but it is tempting.

I so appreciate all the great resources so many of my fellow tuggers provide here. It is such a value.

I know this is off topic but I don't understand why the "guests" don't contribute and pay the tiny membership dues. 

It is by far the best bang for the buck. 

best to all,
k


----------



## DeniseM

Hi - glad you are having a great time on Kauai - our favorite island!  

Here is the 6 million dollar question - why do you want to be 4 Star Elite?

Elite Member Perks


----------



## YYJMSP

SDKath said:


> You can get around that easily by either fixing the certain week you want or fixing the unit.  It will cost you 10% more but is well worth it to be able to retro a unit.  I prefer fixing the week (basically making it like an "event week" and then if you chose not to go that week or use SOs or SPs, they will just put you into the float week for your season).



So what happens if the price is $19,900 (which is what I think WDW EOY is right now for a Platinum+ week) -- can you offer to pay an extra $100 "over sticker" to make the $20K minimum?

Or do you really have to go the +10% route to fix the unit or week?


----------



## SDKath

YYJMSP said:


> So what happens if the price is $19,900 (which is what I think WDW EOY is right now for a Platinum+ week) -- can you offer to pay an extra $100 "over sticker" to make the $20K minimum?
> 
> Or do you really have to go the +10% route to fix the unit or week?



Good question.  No idea!  Hopefully they would "work" with you and grant an exception.    A few years ago when I retro'd something, I was short $500 and they said sorry.  But things change...

Katherine


----------



## SDKath

Have to agree with Denise here.  4* gives you nothing special except more SOs and SPs....

Katherine


----------



## YYJMSP

SDKath said:


> Good question.  No idea!  Hopefully they would "work" with you and grant an exception.    A few years ago when I retro'd something, I was short $500 and they said sorry.  But things change...



Well, I think we've worked out our purchase plan, and I'm just sending "K" a note right now to see if it passes checks at their end...


----------



## Fredm

RoshiGuy said:


> Fred, the thread had moved slightly OT. Poster who owned 2 units asked about the best approach to getting SPs and Elite status. DeniseM correctly pointed out that doing this to convert into SPs can be more expensive than simply buying the SPs from Starwood. Jarta disagreed. That is when we got into the OT discussion on how to calculate the correct cost of SPs, with my perspective being that one should not ignore depreciation and opportunity cost in determining the cost of their SPs.



Oops! looks like I was the one going OT on the OT


----------



## klatkiew

The only benefit i like having 4* status is the ability to wait list for the specific weeks/units/locations you want.    However.... sometimes they are not even accepting wait lists depending on the property and season.

Last year i was able to waitlist for a 2 bdrm at Harborside during memorial day week --- and i got it.   

The other benefits that come with 4* are basically worthless.    my opinion of course.


----------



## pathways25

klatkiew said:


> The only benefit i like having 4* status is the ability to wait list for the specific weeks/units/locations you want.    However.... sometimes they are not even accepting wait lists depending on the property and season.
> 
> Last year i was able to waitlist for a 2 bdrm at Harborside during memorial day week --- and i got it.
> 
> The other benefits that come with 4* are basically worthless.    my opinion of course.



I'm not sure 4* is that worthless.  The perks that I really value are the 9/30 StarPoint conversion deadline, the waiving of the $99 conversion fee and the 10% StarPoint bonus.  Those $99 conversion fees can add up pretty quickly if I need to convert a bunch of unused studio sides from my 2BR units.


----------



## jarta

pathways,   ...   I agree.  9/30, no conversion fee and the 10% bonus are very useful perks.   ...   eom


----------



## Maui_ed

I also agree with pathways25 that 4* is not worthless - but "value" depends on what you want to do.  If you don't plan to convert SOs to SPs, the value might not be there for you.


----------



## vistana101

Maybe you should try SBP in Myrtle Beach-they might have some sales in the newer phase, Palmetto. For 81,000 SO (2 bedroom platinum), your MF would be:

$634--from 2011 MF thread, w/o ARDA or SVN Fee

I own the same type of unit at SVV and our MF our 1,021 for that unit.


----------



## ketamine

*my reasons to go to 4**



pathways25 said:


> I'm not sure 4* is that worthless.  The perks that I really value are the 9/30 StarPoint conversion deadline, the waiving of the $99 conversion fee and the 10% StarPoint bonus.  Those $99 conversion fees can add up pretty quickly if I need to convert a bunch of unused studio sides from my 2BR units.



I agree, as did others, with pathways25.

In addition the $99 conversion has just gone up to $115.

Yes, Points can be a relatively better or worse value.... depending.

We like European travel and adding several 5 for 4 nights in selected luxury hotels, is an otherwise unafforable treat; plus spg.com for airtravel has been good when 20K =25K and you still earn your milage points.

Holding one resevation while on wait list for another I find a good addition to 3* as well.

Finally I'm only 56K away .... 
The reason for my inquiry was to "look at" options as to how I might best get to that 56K.

Now the difference between 4* and 5* is huge over 300K....whew! I was told at the oiwner update yesterday that Starwood is planning an increase in the requirements for 4*.... so for us, if we are going to do it at all, it's now or never.

So to get that 56K SO.... Does it make _any sence _to do a resale and then an EOY retro or just to do an inexpensive MF purchase (maybe an EOY) as suggested by Vistana101.

Thanks so much for all the good input and food for thought.
k

P.S.  we are really enjoying Princeville. it is a great proiperty.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I say go for 5* - using the all these great arguments for buying even more SVO VOIs to increase those prestigious Elite levels - 5* appears to be even a better bargain...

besides - SVO needs more of this type of logic to keep the SVO boat afloat... you know... the one we are all passengers on (although most of us are in steerage) - otherwise it could be sink or swim...  wtf - my life-vest appears to be missing!  I sure hope there are enough rafts...


----------



## YYJMSP

ketamine said:


> I was told at the oiwner update yesterday that Starwood is planning an increase in the requirements for 4*.... so for us, if we are going to do it at all, it's now or never.



Standard salesperson ploy -- "buy today, or it will cost more tomorrow"


----------



## jerseygirl

I wouldn't take on two maintenance fees just to save a little bit of upfront money ... if you're going to do it, buy an EOY platinum plus or platinum unit somewhere that will get you the 56K you need.  Maybe they'll even throw in some phantom SOs just to get you to 4* and you won't have to buy the full 56K.

If you spend $20K, that's 173 conversion fees.  If you convert 4 a year, you'll make up those fees in 43 years.  Just saying ....


----------



## capjak

YYJMSP said:


> Standard salesperson ploy -- "buy today, or it will cost more tomorrow"



In most cases I would agree, however, a few years back a starwood salesperson said the 5 star was going up and guess what he was actually correct...it did go up when he said it was going too...

Bottom line do not buy out of fear of going up, buy because you have the disposable cash and you really want the 4 star benefit.

Face it a timeshare is a Emotional Purchase for the most part


----------



## DeniseM

This is being actively discussed in this thread - start at post #155.

(I merged this thread with that thread.)


----------



## RoshiGuy

ketamine said:


> We like European travel and adding several 5 for 4 nights in selected luxury hotels, is an otherwise unafforable treat; plus spg.com for airtravel has been good when 20K =25K and you still earn your milage points.
> 
> So to get that 56K SO.... Does it make _any sence _to do a resale and then an EOY retro or just to do an inexpensive MF purchase (maybe an EOY) as suggested by Vistana101.



Retroing a resale as part of this process can get you additional SOs/SPs, for negligible extra upfront cost, and might be useful given your European travel interests. The downside is that you're adding a few months to the process.

Unless you feel you don't need the extra SOs/SPs, I would suggest retroing a resale. Since you're thinking of doing the developer purchase anyway, the resale will add under $3K in upfront costs and around $1000-$1300 in MF. Those numbers look pretty good to me even if the primary use of this will be for SP conversion (you'll get 10% bonus as a 4*).


----------



## YYJMSP

SDKath said:


> Good question.  No idea!  Hopefully they would "work" with you and grant an exception.    A few years ago when I retro'd something, I was short $500 and they said sorry.  But things change...



Sounds like the party line is if you're $100 short, they might give an exception.  Anything more, forget it...  And they can't change the prices.

Yesterday's prices (subject to availability):

- WDW 2BR LO Platinum+ EOY $22,900 ($19,900 if you already own something else)
- WMH 2BR LO Platinum+ EOY $20,900 ($17,900 if you already own something else)

Current promotional incentive is 55K SPG points for either of those.


----------



## YYJMSP

YYJMSP said:


> Sounds like the party line is if you're $100 short, they might give an exception.  Anything more, forget it...  And they can't change the prices.
> 
> Yesterday's prices (subject to availability):
> 
> - WDW 2BR LO Platinum+ EOY $22,900 ($19,900 if you already own something else)
> - WMH 2BR LO Platinum+ EOY $20,900 ($17,900 if you already own something else)
> 
> Current promotional incentive is 55K SPG points for either of those.



They allowed the exception to retro units with a $19,900 purchase (instead of $20K).  It takes 4 signatures to do so, and took almost a week to secure them all.

They also increased the promotional incentive from 55K SPG points each for the EOY's to 65K SPG points each.

For those trying to maximize bonus points, best thing to do is purchase an Explorer West package, pay for it, use the purchase price towards the purchase of the developer unit, and you get an extra 100K SPG points (70K for doing a purchase, and 30K for not returning to the source property).

We tried to purchase 2 Explorer packages (to get another 100K SPG points), but they won't let you -- only allowed to have one per 12 month period.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I hope you find it worth the cost in the long run (even with the incentives)- and the Elite rules don't change on you.  IMO - I find the cost:benefit not worth it in the SVO world today (vs when KathD started this thread), but hopefully YMMV.


----------



## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> I hope you find it worth the cost in the long run (even with the incentives)- and the Elite rules don't change on you.  IMO - I find the cost:benefit not worth it in the SVO world today (vs when KathD started this thread), but hopefully YMMV.



We made sure to purchase in places/seasons that we would actually go to, etc.  This probably made for a more expensive path to 5* Elite than some (I'm estimating our MFs will be ~$8500 for ~686K SOs / ~390K SPG points), but we're happy with how we've used the ownerships to date, the value we've gotten, and our plans for the next 2 or 3 years...


----------



## DavidnRobin

I like the idea of buying where you want to go - and I am sure you realize that it is more than the $MFs, the SOs, and the SPs upon SO conversion (plus incentives), but also the upfront cost - the value in the long-term - as well as the cost of vacationing in both terms of time and $$$ (our biggest hit).

besides... w/o people buying from SVO (even to requal) - how else will this house of cards stay upright? LOL

best of luck.


----------



## capjak

Offered retros of WKORV-North 2 bd annual by purchasing a EOY 2 bdroom platinum season WLR oceanfront for $24900.  110,000 Starpoints incentive and option to purchase 4 packages for 80,000 starpoints each at $1550.

Just wanted to give some recent data on retros, did not do this.


----------



## duke

DavidnRobin said:


> (*vs when KathD started this thread*), but hopefully YMMV.


Hey, don't forget about me..........duke


----------



## DavidnRobin

duke said:


> Hey, don't forget about me..........duke



How could we possible forget about you? The man who originally wrote the requal thread - whereas the rest of us are mere followers.  But it was SDKath who wrote the guide to 5* platinum that caused SVO to change their rules in so many ways.
but... you still 'the man'.

I did notice that SDKath did not give you credit in post#1 - shame. shame, shame...


----------



## duke

DavidnRobin said:


> but...* you still 'the man'*.



Love you man!


----------



## clsmit

capjak said:


> Offered retros of WKORV-North 2 bd annual by purchasing a EOY 2 bdroom platinum season WLR oceanfront for $24900.  110,000 Starpoints incentive and option to purchase 4 packages for 80,000 starpoints each at $1550.
> 
> Just wanted to give some recent data on retros, did not do this.



They clearly still have a ton of WLR inventory they want to get rid of! That's a pretty typical requal arrangement.


----------



## jimgior

capjak said:


> Offered retros of WKORV-North 2 bd annual by purchasing a EOY 2 bdroom platinum season WLR oceanfront for $24900.  110,000 Starpoints incentive and option to purchase 4 packages for 80,000 starpoints each at $1550.
> 
> Just wanted to give some recent data on retros, did not do this.



Odd -  I was offered EOY 2BRLO WLR Plat. for 19900 - 1795 of my explorer package, 130,000k star points, and the 4 x 80k points for 1550.00.   I didn't have a timeshare to retro at the time.


----------



## VacationForever

Starwood has pricing differential for existing Starwood owners and non owners for the lower tier seasons or units.  Last time when I was at WLR, the sales person was trying to sell us 1br or 2br Eoy gold plus and gave my friend and I separate pricing and when we told him that if we were to buy it would be for 2br ey and there was no owner's discount for the EY 2br.

The other thing is pricing and incentives change through time.  The pricing that was offered to me was lower than that posted by another Tugger several months before.


----------



## grgs

jimgior said:


> Odd -  I was offered EOY 2BRLO WLR Plat. for 19900 - 1795 of my explorer package, 130,000k star points, and the 4 x 80k points for 1550.00.   I didn't have a timeshare to retro at the time.



I'm guessing $19,900 is for an OV unit, not OF (or OS--Ocean Side, which how the refer to the OF units at WLR).  

Glorian


----------



## grgs

capjak said:


> Offered retros of WKORV-North 2 bd annual by purchasing a EOY 2 bdroom platinum season WLR oceanfront for $24900.  110,000 Starpoints incentive and option to purchase 4 packages for 80,000 starpoints each at $1550.
> 
> Just wanted to give some recent data on retros, did not do this.



Just confirm--this was for an _Ocean Side_ unit as opposed to Resort View, right?

Glorian


----------



## jarta

glorian,   ...   Last Spring I purchased an annual Plat. 2-br WMH on the resale market.  While staying at WKV last Fall, I was looking to retro the WMH unit.

I already owned an EOY Plat 2-br at Lagunamar.  When I looked to upgrade that EOY week so that I could include the retro of the WMH week as part of the transaction, I found that upgrading the EOY 2-br to an annual would cost $19,900.  That would have been too little to include the retro of the WMH.  You need $20K for Mexico and the mainland US.  However, upgrading the Plat 2-br EOY to an an annual Plat 2-br OS unit at Lagunamar would cost $21,500.

There are only regular Lagunamar weeks and OS Lagunamar weeks that are sold.  The OS units are located in buildings 1,9 and 14.  They are the last tier of 2-br units of each of those buildings and are closest to/right on the beach.  (Also got 80K Starpoints and 6 options to buy 80K Starpoints each for $1,550 each.)

I bought the 5th Floor OS 2-br in Building 1.  But, I made sure I bought the deeded week 7 - in case I decide to up the week to Ultra or Ultra Permium at a later time.  Salty


----------



## jimgior

grgs said:


> Just confirm--this was for an _Ocean Side_ unit as opposed to Resort View, right?
> 
> Glorian



I didn't pay attention because we were not doing it.  If we did it would have been more for options than wanting to go there


----------



## DJmonkey

*Need Clarification*

Been out of the loop for a bit.
Just got back from WKV in June HOT (105 everyday).
Did the owners update.
Was told you can only requal up to gold level but I believe the example was for a SDO platinum it would only go to gold.
Anyone know if requals are still working the way they did in the past?
I would like to pick up a 148 somewhere and requal it with a cheap developer purchase to get to 4*.
We have 162K SO and trying to get to 359K for 4*. So I think I could buy a 148K and would only need 49k SO.
Was offered 30K Phantom for our Marriott TS
So would only need 19K. Can't see them allowing me to buy a studio or EOY and requal 148 + 30K phantom but maybe you guys know.

Also was offered the explorer package but didn't buy. Can you buy that after the fact? i.e week later.

FYI
Didn't get the 4* is going up pitch.
Also was told upgrading is no longer an option.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## DeniseM

DJmonkey said:


> I would like to pick up a 148 somewhere and requal it with a cheap developer purchase to get to 4*.



Minimum developer purchase is $20K, or $40K in Hawaii.  I don't know how much you hoped to pay, but I think $20K is a lot to pay for 4 Star Elite.  

Why do you want to reach 4 Star? - https://www.mystarcentral.com/elite/chart.html


----------



## SDKath

DJmonkey said:


> Been out of the loop for a bit.
> Just got back from WKV in June HOT (105 everyday).
> Did the owners update.
> Was told you can only requal up to gold level but I believe the example was for a SDO platinum it would only go to gold.
> Anyone know if requals are still working the way they did in the past?
> I would like to pick up a 148 somewhere and requal it with a cheap developer purchase to get to 4*.
> We have 162K SO and trying to get to 359K for 4*. So I think I could buy a 148K and would only need 49k SO.
> Was offered 30K Phantom for our Marriott TS
> So would only need 19K. Can't see them allowing me to buy a studio or EOY and requal 148 + 30K phantom but maybe you guys know.
> 
> Also was offered the explorer package but didn't buy. Can you buy that after the fact? i.e week later.
> 
> FYI
> Didn't get the 4* is going up pitch.
> Also was told upgrading is no longer an option.
> 
> Thanks for the help.



Sounds like things are a bit confusing.  An SDO 1-52 "platinum week" turns into a gold week when you retro it.  I think that's what they mean above.  A true platinum (1-21 float, which is VERY hard to find these days) turns into a TRUE platinum week worth 148,100 SOs when you retro it.  

Backing up a bit though...

If you are going to buy a TS to retro, you should find something for cheap (under $5000) for as close to 148,100 SOs as you possibly can.  That pretty much means WMH platinum EY weeks since SDO is impossible to find these days as a true platinum (1-21 floating week) and the other platinum weeks are more money (such as WKV, which is going for over $10,000 for a platinum EY week).

Once you have your week to retro (and it's in your name), you need to buy direct from Starwood a week that is at least $20,000.  That's the rub, and the most expensive part of this process now.  That could be an EOY someplace like WLR, which is right around $20k right now.  But it has to be $20k...   So no "cheap" weeks when it comes to buying from Starwood if you want to retro too.  

TIP: if it's close to $20k, they usually don't let you retro a week.  BUT, you can ask them to "fix" the week or the unit number you ae buying from the developer, and that will cost you an additional $1500ish, usually pushing you over the $20k needed to do your retro.

By retroing a cheap resale week, you are basically maximizing your $20k investment by bringing another (resale) week into the SVN system, allowing you to travel using SOs or SPs from both the Starwood purchase AND your resale purchase.  For me, that is a very valuable and wonderful perk.  But some folks don't think it's worth it.  I think that's a totally personal decision.  I have to say since I have been 5*, I have not paid for a single airline ticket for any trip for anyone in my family.  Also, we now always fly first class.  And the majority of our hotel stays are on SPs so they are free.  It makes those trips to Chicago in the winter to visit the inlaws WAAY more bareable.   :ignore: 

Katherine


----------



## DJmonkey

You ladies are the best. 
I am looking for 4* for the point conversion premium in addition to the other small stuff people like. I travel to NYC for work for or 5 times per year. 
If I pay for my starwood hotel rooms the cost would far exceed my MFs for weeks I convert and use to book via spg.

That said I am not spending another 20K with SVN. However it sounded like they were willing to sell any WLR unit to get the sale but I'm sure the story could/would change. 

That was my initial question, are the requal requirements still the same? And it sounds like yes. $20k min purchase.

Do you know if they are still upgrading and if I could upgrade my WMH gold to platinum?

Any good reps to talk to that you could recommend?

FYI
Someone sent a PM to me about a true SDO platinum EY 2 Bed but considering I am not sure I will be buying anything else from the developer, I think I should be looking for a Mandatory resort resale. 
I would be happy with a 81K platinum 1 bed but those are impossible to find. (seems like a better deal than 2bed resale for 20K)


----------



## hypnotiq

I've read through this thread a couple times and don't know that I know the answer to my question definitively so I'm going to ask.

Do you need to have 649k StarOptions every year? or just a total of 649k StarOptions in your portfolio?

I'm trying to figure out whether picking up an EOY 148k voluntary unit to retro is going to work


----------



## DavidnRobin

Blast from the past - a classic thread worth reading.
It is keeping VOIs that have a total value of 649K SOs (used to be 549K) in your portfolio - for an EOY you get one half the SO value of that VOI (148.1/2 = 74.05 SOs)


----------



## SMHarman

DavidnRobin said:


> Blast from the past - a classic thread worth reading.
> It is keeping VOIs that have a total value of 649K SOs (used to be 549K) in your portfolio - for an EOY you get one half the SO value of that VOI (148.1/2 = 74.05 SOs)



The flip side math is the one to look at. Buy an EY 148k and retro with $20k off New money for an EOY. Usually WLM. 

That gets you an averaged 222k SO a Year. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tomandrobin

DavidnRobin said:


> Blast from the past - a classic thread worth reading.
> It is keeping VOIs that have a total value of 649K SOs (used to be 549K) in your portfolio - for an EOY you get one half the SO value of that VOI (148.1/2 = 74.05 SOs)



Correct....Starwood counts 1/2 of the EOY staroptions every year toward the total elite levels. That is how our staroptions work.


----------



## hypnotiq

So then you'd never want to retro a EOY 148k w/a EY purchase (unless it was something you already owned).


----------



## Westin5Star

hypnotiq said:


> So then you'd never want to retro a EOY 148k w/a EY purchase (unless it was something you already owned).



Correct.  I will also add that those that had 5* before they increase the requirements (from 550k to 650k SO) are grandfathered in.  I actually had 740k SO up until last year.  I sold 148k SO so I now only have 592k.  Because my paperwork says 550k and I obtained that before the increase, I am still 5*.  If I drop below the 550k then I will lose my 5* status.  I have this in writing from Starwood and they were very helpful in providing it to me when I was selling my 148k SO last year.  

Thank goodness I got to keep my 5* as I wouldn't want to change my screen name and cause all kind of TUG confusion.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Buy EOY and requal resale EY (obtaining the most SOs as possible)
And it is better to requal a V vs. M resort due to SOs already coming with the M resort.
And get same-day ExpPkg... 

rules can and do change


----------



## SMHarman

DavidnRobin said:


> Buy EOY and requal resale EY (obtaining the most SOs as possible)
> And it is better to requal a V vs. M resort due to SOs already coming with the M resort.
> And get same-day ExpPkg...
> 
> rules can and do change



And trade in a another week for the original purchase price. They do this on the SBP weeks I think

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> And get same-day ExpPkg...
> 
> rules can and do change



When we did this, they had just introduced a limit of one Explorer per calendar year, and a max of two over your lifetime...

Still, 200K+ SPG points for pretty much nothing.


----------



## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> And get same-day ExpPkg...



I have not of this before.  Would you please elaborate?  Thanks.


----------



## SMHarman

sptung said:


> I have not of this before.  Would you please elaborate?  Thanks.



When you buy the explorer you get to credit the $$$ against a purchase so buying the explorer gets you another vacation as part of the acquisition costs. Effectively for 0 dollars.  Spend $1500 on an explorer and get $1500 off the TS purchase and a vacation. 
That explorer may even count toward the $20k of New money. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## VacationForever

SMHarman said:


> When you buy the explorer you get to credit the $$$ against a purchase so buying the explorer gets you another vacation as part of the acquisition costs. Effectively for 0 dollars.  Spend $1500 on an explorer and get $1500 off the TS purchase and a vacation.
> That explorer may even count toward the $20k of New money.
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2



Makes sense.  Thanks.


----------



## DavidnRobin

sptung said:


> I have not of this before.  Would you please elaborate?  Thanks.



The wink  was for... back in the day (ok - not so long ago - see duke's requal thread) - I purchased an EOY WPORV (pre-construction) during our first visit to WKV (resale from SmartChoice).  Yes, I did know about the resale market... 

During this 'deal' [Note: probably better value to have bought the WPORV resale - but would prefer this over exchanging in... another topic...] - I was able to work in an Explorer Package that could be used as part of the contract being purchased - as I walked out on the original - the 'Closer' - ExpPkg person - threw in the same day use of the ExpPkg.  They also requaled our WKORV (most SO even though M resort) - allowed a EOY to requal a EY (unknown at the time), gave me the Owners price (was not officially a SVO Owner as our weeks were all resale) of $24.3K instead of $36K, allowed for first usage in 2009 instead of 2008 (almost a deal breaker), and had something like 100K incentive SPs - put in on SPG AMEX for more SPs - and ended up with 225K SP - and also 3* Elite


----------



## dss

I just want to thank David once again for sharing his experience as I did the exact (and I mean exact - WKORV EY OFD retro when purchasing WPORV EOY at owner pricing) same thing just a few months later. I tried doing it while onsite at WKORV and they looked at me like I was from another planet. Wound up doing the whole thing while at WKORV but through the long gone central office and it worked smoothly, while they played along, they did laugh at the notion of the "instant explorer" redemption. 

Best part is I used some of the "extra" SPG points to top off my AA account and made Lifetime Plat (right before they changed the rules) and got 4 eVIP upgrades (good anywhere AA flies) which are worth roughly $2k alone in addition to AA lifetime plat benefits.


----------



## hypnotiq

Thanks everyone for the info/feedback.


----------



## LobsterHunter

Regarding the limit of 2 explorer packages, I ran into the same problem when trying to do a retro, even though we had already upgraded off both our explorer packages.  This is apparently ONLY a WEST COAST rule.  We were able to purchase additional explorer packages through Orlando.  So far, they will sell you as many explorer packages as you want....as long as you are actually upgrading with a purchase on them.  If you are interested, send me a pm & I can give you the contact info for the person I use & you can do the entire explorer package purchase over the phone/mail.


----------



## czar

SDKath said:


> Sounds like things are a bit confusing.  An SDO 1-52 "platinum week" turns into a gold week when you retro it.  I think that's what they mean above.  A true platinum (1-21 float, which is VERY hard to find these days) turns into a TRUE platinum week worth 148,100 SOs when you retro it.
> 
> Backing up a bit though...
> 
> If you are going to buy a TS to retro, you should find something for cheap (under $5000) for as close to 148,100 SOs as you possibly can.  That pretty much means WMH platinum EY weeks since SDO is impossible to find these days as a true platinum (1-21 floating week) and the other platinum weeks are more money (such as WKV, which is going for over $10,000 for a platinum EY week).
> Katherine



For SDO - other than a seller knowing to list it the right way (1-21, 51,52), how can you tell if it's a true plat week?  If it is a fixed week during that timeframe (e.g., fixed week 10), is that an indicator?


----------



## SMHarman

czar said:


> For SDO - other than a seller knowing to list it the right way (1-21, 51,52), how can you tell if it's a true plat week?  If it is a fixed week during that timeframe (e.g., fixed week 10), is that an indicator?


If the Owner owns one of these

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=512371&postcount=8


myip said:


> To be a true Platinum week at Sheraton Desert Oasis the unit number must be in this range-
> 
> 1064, 1072, 1081-1100, 2064, 2072, 2081- 2100, 3064-3072, and 3081-3100
> 
> AND
> 
> the deeded week must be in this range: 1-21, 50-52
> 
> *9/29/11 - added info. - DeniseM


Then it is Plat Plus / True Plat.


----------



## czar

SMHarman said:


> If the Owner owns one of these
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=512371&postcount=8
> 
> Then it is Plat Plus / True Plat.



Thank you!


----------



## czar

> To be a true Platinum week at Sheraton Desert Oasis the unit number must be in this range-
> 
> 1064, 1072, 1081-1100, 2064, 2072, 2081- 2100, 3064-3072, and 3081-3100



Wow, looking at the number of actual units, now I understand why it is so touch to find one of these.  I missed getting  one that a Tugger let me know about recently - it's no longer listed now - as I waited too long.  Looks like there are 70 units that qualify, and 24 weeks total, so 1680 total true platinum weeks?  Is that right?


----------



## SMHarman

czar said:


> Wow, looking at the number of actual units, now I understand why it is so touch to find one of these.  I missed getting  one that a Tugger let me know about recently - it's no longer listed now - as I waited too long.  Looks like there are 70 units that qualify, and 24 weeks total, so 1680 total true platinum weeks?  Is that right?


Possibly, also remember some were sold as 1Br or Pr1Br and some were sold as EOY contracts so if you are looking for a 2BR EY with 148,100 SO to requal then the pool of available contracts is lower still.


----------



## DavidnRobin

czar said:


> Wow, looking at the number of actual units, now I understand why it is so touch to find one of these.  I missed getting  one that a Tugger let me know about recently - it's no longer listed now - as I waited too long.  Looks like there are 70 units that qualify, and 24 weeks total, so 1680 total true platinum weeks?  Is that right?



Based on your situation (iirc) - you should just buy one that you can find at a reasonable amount. Try RedWeek over eBay.


----------



## hypnotiq

czar said:


> I missed getting  one that a Tugger let me know about recently - it's no longer listed now - as I waited too long.



It was listed at $5k w/closing and I was surprised it sold that high and quick (I was keeping an eye on it), which means (it would seem) demand is growing for it even more.


----------



## RLG

czar said:


> Wow, looking at the number of actual units, now I understand why it is so tough to find one of these...



That's why I bought, and recommend that other people buy, a Mountain Vista 2br instead.  It has the second best economics and isn't impossible to find like SDO Platinum.


----------



## VacationForever

RLG said:


> That's why I bought, and recommend that other people buy, a Mountain Vista 2br instead.  It has the second best economics and isn't impossible to find like SDO Platinum.



I do not know what is the current going price for SMV.  But based on my memory, the last time your offer was for 10K so economically SDO platinum is still more cost effective.


----------



## pathways25

SMHarman said:


> Possibly, also remember some were sold as 1Br or Pr1Br and some were sold as EOY contracts so if you are looking for a 2BR EY with 148,100 SO to requal then the pool of available contracts is lower still.



I have actually studied this very carefully and based on my review of records from the Maricopa County recorders office, there are *at most* 252 3-season platinum weeks.  There may actually be less than 252 since there are about 16 weeks that I can't account for either way.  The rest were either sold as 1BRs or 2BR EOY.

Interestingly, I would say that a significant fraction of those weeks are owned by TUG members...


----------



## czar

What about a Plat Lagunamar?  I'm assuming you can requalify it even though it's RTU? The MF is not too much more than SDO.


----------



## SMHarman

czar said:


> What about a Plat Lagunamar?  I'm assuming you can requalify it even though it's RTU? The MF is not too much more than SDO.


It's a good requal candidate though it is a MX TS so the rental opportunities if you are not using not converting SO>SP or SO stay would be harder to fill.


----------



## YYJMSP

LobsterHunter said:


> Regarding the limit of 2 explorer packages, I ran into the same problem when trying to do a retro, even though we had already upgraded off both our explorer packages.  This is apparently ONLY a WEST COAST rule.  We were able to purchase additional explorer packages through Orlando.  So far, they will sell you as many explorer packages as you want....as long as you are actually upgrading with a purchase on them.  If you are interested, send me a pm & I can give you the contact info for the person I use & you can do the entire explorer package purchase over the phone/mail.



We specifically asked them to look in to both Explorer East and West, as we had been made aware they were different.

We did our last two or three (can't remember now) sets of transactions through the same corp rep in Orlando.

Not planning on buying any more intervals...


----------



## lisae

*SDO Help*

I need help..what does this seller own? 

I just received a 2-2LO Deeded week is 16 unit number is 206566?


----------



## hypnotiq

lisae said:


> I need help..what does this seller own?
> 
> I just received a 2-2LO Deeded week is 16 unit number is 206566?



That's not a Platinum week.  If its a 1-52 Float, its Gold+


----------



## lisae

*SDO Help*

Ok thank you!


----------



## gtm2011

*SDO Platinum Weeks*

To be a true Platinum week at Sheraton Desert Oasis the unit number must be in this range-

1064, 1072, 1081-1100, 2064, 2072, 2081- 2100, 3064-3072, and 3081-3100

AND

the deeded week must be in this range: 1-21, 50-52

Copied from: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=512371&postcount=8


----------



## SDKath

gtm2011 said:


> To be a true Platinum week at Sheraton Desert Oasis the unit number must be in this range-
> 
> 1064, 1072, 1081-1100, 2064, 2072, 2081- 2100, 3064-3072, and 3081-3100
> 
> AND
> 
> the deeded week must be in this range: 1-21, 50-52
> 
> Copied from: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=512371&postcount=8



Nice to poke my head in and see my old, old thread resurrected on TUG!  I hope it has helped others.  I have not made any more purchases and we are extremely happy with our 5* status, the SOs and SPs.  Still travelling first class thanks to our many SPs (also using our Am Ex Starwood card almost exclusively). We have international travel to look forward to in 2015 so that will be my first foray into Starwood benefits overseas!  

Hi to all!  Katherine


----------



## hypnotiq

Thanks Katherine as someone that has been plotting/planning a 5* move, this thread (and those who are 5* already) have been invaluable.


----------



## SMHarman

hypnotiq said:


> Thanks Katherine as someone that has been plotting/planning a 5* move, this thread (and those who are 5* already) have been invaluable.


While ditching units for the island home


----------



## DavidnRobin

SDKath said:


> Nice to poke my head in and see my old, old thread resurrected on TUG!  I hope it has helped others.  I have not made any more purchases and we are extremely happy with our 5* status, the SOs and SPs.  Still travelling first class thanks to our many SPs (also using our Am Ex Starwood card almost exclusively). We have international travel to look forward to in 2015 so that will be my first foray into Starwood benefits overseas!
> 
> Hi to all!  Katherine



 from DavidnRobin (lowly 3*)


----------



## tomandrobin

SDKath said:


> Nice to poke my head in and see my old, old thread resurrected on TUG!  I hope it has helped others.  I have not made any more purchases and we are extremely happy with our 5* status, the SOs and SPs.  Still travelling first class thanks to our many SPs (also using our Am Ex Starwood card almost exclusively). We have international travel to look forward to in 2015 so that will be my first foray into Starwood benefits overseas!
> 
> Hi to all!  Katherine




Hi to you! 

She who changed Starwood forever. 

Nice seeing you still enjoying 5* et al.......us too! 

When we did out Italy-Greece trip, we used our starpoints for everything....except two nights in Tuscany. International first class tickets are one of the best bang for the starpoint uses!


----------



## tomandrobin

hypnotiq said:


> Thanks Katherine as someone that has been plotting/planning a 5* move, this thread (and those who are 5* already) have been invaluable.



If going for 5*....do it right.


----------



## SDKath

hypnotiq said:


> Thanks Katherine as someone that has been plotting/planning a 5* move, this thread (and those who are 5* already) have been invaluable.



Glad to hear that I have been able to help someone spend money!  :hysterical:

For those of you who have recent experience, is Starwood again allowing the retro while upgrading a smaller unit (1br for example) to larger unit (2br) unit in the same resort?  I realize they are sticking to the $20,000 minimum requirement but if that is met, has anyone been able to do an upgrade with a retro recently?

Hi to David and Tom and Robin and Robin!


----------



## oneohana

SDKath said:


> Glad to hear that I have been able to help someone spend money!  :hysterical:
> 
> For those of you who have recent experience, is Starwood again allowing the retro while upgrading a smaller unit (1br for example) to larger unit (2br) unit in the same resort?  I realize they are sticking to the $20,000 minimum requirement but if that is met, has anyone been able to do an upgrade with a retro recently?
> 
> Hi to David and Tom and Robin and Robin!



Hi Katherine,

So are looking to upgrade and retro another unit?

Last year at WSJ they offered to give us credit of $17k on our SVV Key West for a deposit on a WSJ week and retro SDO week.  I'm done retroing.

I didn't ask on an upgrade of a WLR 1 bed to a 2 bed.


----------



## duke

SDKath said:


> Glad to hear that I have been able to help someone spend money!  :hysterical:
> 
> Hi to David and Tom and Robin and Robin!



Hey, what about me?


----------



## tomandrobin

duke said:


> Hey, what about me?



I am not quite the **Star** power......But Hi "Duke".......StarPrime!

Where has Duke been traveling with his Eliteness?


----------



## hypnotiq

So given that its 649k now for 5* and 4x148.1k puts you at 56600 shy of 5*, you need a 3rd developer purchase to hit 5*.

What's the best idea/philosophy (re: best value) for picking up the last 56600? I'd assume you'd want to pick up a 81k.


----------



## tomandrobin

hypnotiq said:


> So given that its 649k now for 5* and 4x148.1k puts you at 56600 shy of 5*, you need a 3rd developer purchase to hit 5*.
> 
> What's the best idea/philosophy (re: best value) for picking up the last 56600? I'd assume you'd want to pick up a 81k.



Not necessarily......The WSJ plat plus 3-bedroom weeks in the Coral Bay section will be 257.7k


----------



## hypnotiq

tomandrobin said:


> Not necessarily......The WSJ plat plus 3-bedroom weeks in the Coral Bay section will be 257.7k



I imagine that's gonna come at a hefty price.


----------



## DavidnRobin

seek help.....


----------



## tomandrobin

hypnotiq said:


> I imagine that's gonna come at a hefty price.



Absolutely.....

There are lots of creative ways to get there......even at WSJ.


----------



## Ken555

Don't forget the new 176,700 SO deed at WSJ! 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## SMHarman

hypnotiq said:


> So given that its 649k now for 5* and 4x148.1k puts you at 56600 shy of 5*, you need a 3rd developer purchase to hit 5*.
> 
> What's the best idea/philosophy (re: best value) for picking up the last 56600? I'd assume you'd want to pick up a 81k.



Buy 148k contracts. Retro 196k contracts. Reduce the cost with Svv plat trade in.


----------



## gtm2011

Assuming you stick to the 148,100 contracts, one of the cheapest ways would be to retro 3 resale EY 148,100 contracts with 3 EOY 148,100 developer contracts. This way you would end up with 666,450 SO's. You would then try and add an explorer package to each of the developer EOY purchases with the retros to make the deal better. If you could sneak in a trade-in, that would be even better.



SMHarman said:


> Buy 148k contracts. Retro 196k contracts. Reduce the cost with Svv plat trade in.


----------



## SMHarman

gtm2011 said:


> Assuming you stick to the 148,100 contracts, one of the cheapest ways would be to retro 3 resale EY 148,100 contracts with 3 EOY 148,100 developer contracts. This way you would end up with 666,450 SO's. You would then try and add an explorer package to each of the developer EOY purchases with the retros to make the deal better. If you could sneak in a trade-in, that would be even better.


You can now get to 5* with just two WSJ developer purchases.
Easier to find route
Buy two Platinum Plus 2 Bedrooms at WSJ with 176700 points each and retro a 148,100 contract on each of them, that's 649,600 points.
With the right SVV tradein I wonder how close to the $40k for minimum new cash for such a project can be achieved for??
Pick up the Palm Desert, Mission Hills or Mountain Vista Plat+ weeks to retro.
Pick up SVV 3Br LOs for the trade in.
That gets you 649,600

Harder to find route
Buy a WSJ 148100 week and a 125000 week
Retro two 196900 weeks (3Brs in HRA or Steamboat)
That gets you 666,900

Is this possible route
Buy one SVV 2 BR LO Plat 
Buy one 1 BR PR Plat
Retro two 257700 weeks (are you allowed to retro higher than the purchased week?  Or is the key number $20k of new money?)
That gets you 662,800


----------



## tborr123

*Advice on getting to 5* Elite?*

I posted my Owner's Update experience this week at WKORV where the sales rep was touting the benefits of 4* Elite status if I bought 2 developer units and requal'd my 2 OF WKORV resale units (148k SOs each). Tuggers said it wasn't worth it unless my path was to 5* status. This got me to thinking...

What tips or suggestions do Tuggers have for me to get to 5*? What is that likely to cost in this day? The attractions of 5* status to me are the various perks mentioned before, and the ability to use Starpoints for international travel and airline awards. This would also get me flexibility to use or not use my WKORV units in a particular year. I love Maui and also like to ski with my young adult children.

Assume I have the discretionary income and time to travel. What strategy should I follow? What locations and units would you suggest I consider with the lowest purchase price and MFs to get the additional SOs I need (I calculate I need about 453k SOs (659k-296k).

Thanks in advance, and yes, I have been and will be continuing to read others' accounts on how they did this as well since I have learned a lot from Tuggers.

Ted


----------



## DavidnRobin

Be aware that some aspects of this thread (route to 5*) no longer exists.

If 5*/PFL is something that you really want (but be careful when you justify it - the perceived value may not be what it seems - especially when the rules can and do change)...

Since you already own 2 resale WKORV (worth 148.1K SO each - OF doesn't add value for a requal) - then you might as well retro these SOs, but be aware since these are already M resorts - and there is more value in retroing 148.1 SOs from a V resort.

You will want to buy 2 EOY to requal from SVO that has the most SOs - lowest MFs - for the cheapest cost (likely each greater than $20K).  And you may want to consider buying where you want to go in your decision (e.g. WSJ) - also likely will need to buy something that is currently in active sales.

If this doesn't get you enough SOs, then you will need to buy a resale that comes with as many SOs as possible - also cheap and low MFs - that you can requal with a another EOY purcahase from SVO (as above) - and keeping in mind buying where you want to go which may increase you cost, but may be worth the premium.


----------



## czar

tborr123 said:


> I posted my Owner's Update experience this week at WKORV where the sales rep was touting the benefits of 4* Elite status if I bought 2 developer units and requal'd my 2 OF WKORV resale units (148k SOs each). Tuggers said it wasn't worth it unless my path was to 5* status. This got me to thinking...
> 
> What tips or suggestions do Tuggers have for me to get to 5*? What is that likely to cost in this day? The attractions of 5* status to me are the various perks mentioned before, and the ability to use Starpoints for international travel and airline awards. This would also get me flexibility to use or not use my WKORV units in a particular year. I love Maui and also like to ski with my young adult children.
> 
> Assume I have the discretionary income and time to travel. What strategy should I follow? What locations and units would you suggest I consider with the lowest purchase price and MFs to get the additional SOs I need (I calculate I need about 453k SOs (659k-296k).
> 
> Thanks in advance, and yes, I have been and will be continuing to read others' accounts on how they did this as well since I have learned a lot from Tuggers.
> 
> Ted



One suggestion I have would be to have weeks to trade in for purchase. I just bought a WSJ 3br and traded two weeks in and the net cost was just over $19k, which they qualified for a requal. Also, not sure what impact if any the new SO values at WSJ will have on 5* status, but if none, then the new amounts next year could be a great boost for people looking for 5* status.


----------



## DavidnRobin

He owns 2 OF WKORVs...  I sure SVO would love to trade those in - especially at what they are reselling at (~$120K)


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> He owns 2 OF WKORVs...  I sure SVO would love to trade those in - especially at what they are reselling at (~$120K)



That's just crazy.


----------



## tborr123

Lol the rep said they have one OF at WKORV for $124,900 which she claimed they will have no problem selling. At the same time a local TS realty has one for $41k.


----------



## gkbiiii

*Some Food for Thought, Devaluations...*

I have been a member of the Flyertalk Community for 7 years and some sobering thoughts, to lead to this discussion.  There have been significant award devaluations, throughout the travel industry, with both airlines and hotel programs.  The airline mileage/hotel points required as risen substantially and the benefits to higher tiered level membership, have diminished.

A few key comments:

1.  The Hilton Grand Vacations Club, is offering points through the HHonors program; the problem is that under the devaluation, a 150,000 points gets you "1" night at the Waldorf Hilton London.  Paying for a HGVC membership in HHonors points is a scam, that will diminish in value, every couple of years/"enhancements".

2.  Programs such as Carlson, Wyndham, IHG (Holiday Inn etc.), Choice, and others have significantly cut the value of their points to air-miles transfer levels.  It now takes significantly more points for the miles transferred.

3.  Both the airlines and the hotels are reducing the perks given to their top tiered elite cardholders.  Thus, lifetime Platinum may have a reduced value in the not so distant future.  

In addition, I predict Starwood will come up with a higher level than Platinum, and then reduce the perks given to this level.  It is possible, in the future "lifetime Starwood Platinum" will have greatly reduced benefits and fewer trading partners.

4.  If your hart is set on Starwood Platinum, for around $2,500 annually you can have it, based on hotel stays.  Personally, I would rather Hyatt Diamond, but it is personal preference.  

5.  I like the idea of StarOptions and will by Vistana Bella/Key West resale for these 80,000 point contracts.  The idea of buying 1/2 off points from Starwood annually, is what I do with the airlines.  This is a much cheaper option, for the same benefits.

6.  In this day and age, being highly financially locked into a company (though we are here) is dangerous.  A promise made, is often un-kept, year later.  

7.  I am deeply impressed with how the OP did this in 2008 and agree with the ideas & benefits stated.  The frequent traveler world has changed so much, that "lifetime anything" does not look quite as good as it once did.

You bought a "Lifetime Membership to Delta's Skyclub" which gave comp premium beverage, but now no more.  The Disney Dining Plan, again devalued: my Diamond Crown & Anchor Royal Caribbean benefits reduced, etc, etc.  

Anyway my thoughts, 


George
Miami Beach, Floirda


----------



## czar

Does anyone know which properties can be used as trade-ins for credit?  Last year I made a developer purchase using 2 SVV weeks I traded in (which I'd bought resale), which brought the total Purchase price of the developer purchase to $19k and I also used an explorer package to buy down the cost as well.  As part of that, I requaled an SMV EEY 2br unit I bought resale. 

Im planning to purchase another plat 3br BV week but resale to requal with a summer 3br BV developer purchase if I can trade in 1 or 2 weeks like I did last time. I'd then own 3 weeks at 196,000 SO plus my SMV 148.1 (EEY) week, which would get me the time I want, the SO I want, and 5* for about $48k total. 

So can I use any weeks to trade back into starwood or just specific properties?  Any way to find out what their value would be prior to obtaining them?

Thanks


----------



## DavidnRobin

Only weeks they want - they made me offers on mine for the WSJ CV phase, but still require a minimum of >$20K cash.  Why not just buy another BV float week to match your week's season?  They are out there - sellers are expecting too much (because they compare what SVO sells them for...) - so keep offering what you are willing to pay.


----------



## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> Only weeks they want - they made me offers on mine for the WSJ CV phase, but still require a minimum of >$20K cash.



Last time we were offered 80% of any of our resale weeks original purchase value and 100% of any of our developer weeks original purchase value towards a new developer purchase costing at least an extra $20K.  They were offering to help us "realign our portfolio".

Our resales are all at SVR, so I wouldn't have thought them to be "weeks they want".

We were at WKORV at the time, so they were trying to get us to buy a OFD unit there at the current developer price, something like $110K?.


----------



## Rsauer3473

We just left Vistana Villages where we underwent an owners review before we left. As we just purchased 2 weeks at SVV resale, we were interested in what our review would entail. First our rep did not understand what we owned until the boss shared it with him. After some chitchat the boss entered (let's call him Guido) who basically shuffled some paper work around like he was playing three card monte. He said he could buy all our WKORV, WKORVN, DW, Lagunamar, and SVV to allow us to get to 5* by giving us 8 units at SV and Vistana Beach Club PLUS $20,000. He was also allowing us ghost options as we also own DVC (where we are now). We did not mention that the last time we were offered ghost options and purchased, the salesman called us back later and said he could not do it and offered us another resort. The issue was finally resolved at Suzanne Clark's desk where I was given the original deal plus an additional 80,000 star options to drop our claim.

In the end we declined Guido's offer (whatever it was) and decided to forgo any other reviews. I had told my wife that whatever we would want to do here, any cash would involve $20,000. I was right and it confirms the experiences of most on this site.


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> Only weeks they want - they made me offers on mine for the WSJ CV phase, but still require a minimum of >$20K cash.  Why not just buy another BV float week to match your week's season?  They are out there - sellers are expecting too much (because they compare what SVO sells them for...) - so keep offering what you are willing to pay.



Reason being I'd like the access to SO. We'd like to stay 1-2 weeks annually at WSJ AND go somewhere else during winter, so we need 3 weeks minimum annually.  So the way I see it is that for about $10k more than buying resale, we can get 2 weeks time into SVN. I think it's worth it for the large number of SO we're looking at.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Good luck - I suspect that this is going to cost much more than $20 when you find out how much these villas are being sold for by SVO. Tread carefully - do not let the rescind period go by after dust (and vacation brain) has settled.


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> Good luck - I suspect that this is going to cost much more than $20 when you find out how much these villas are being sold for by SVO. Tread carefully - do not let the rescind period go by after dust (and vacation brain) has settled.



Yeah if it's more than $20k it's not worth it. $20k to get a developer week and requal a 196k week would be. That's what I did last year (but requaled SMV) and I did it after I got home. Wouldn't purchase anything here other than debating an explorer package. If I am able to trade in weeks at 80% value and requal a 3br BV, it would be worth it for putting toward the purchase. But if I don't, I'd  be overpaying for 5 nights here. So stuck on that one. But that's the biggest purchase I'll make if I make any at all!  We'll see tomorrow am. If no one has yet I'll take some pics of the inside of the unit and post if they let me.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Good luck - let us know. Aren't you supposed to be at a beach? Check out Lameshur or at least Salt Pond - or try at least to get to Coral Bay (need car...) 
I was offered a similar deal - but were willing to give me full price on my VOIs for the most part (since we own VOIs that can be sold easily by SVO at a huge profit) - no surprise there - but the purchase price of WSJ CV is huge.


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> Good luck - let us know. Aren't you supposed to be at a beach? Check out Lameshur or at least Salt Pond - or try at least to get to Coral Bay (need car...)
> I was offered a similar deal - but were willing to give me full price on my VOIs for the most part (since we own VOIs that can be sold easily by SVO at a huge profit) - no surprise there - but the purchase price of WSJ CV is huge.



Well spent the day at the Westin beach while our 2 yo napped. Worse places to be 





Took your advice and we're spending morning, and maybe day, with captain Jason, so we'll get to see some beaches along the north shore Thursday. 

Hot today. But beautiful. Great grilling weather with a little dofferent ciew than home. 






Went to the owners cocktail. Actually surprised. Really nice - and cooler - over at the gazebo. Lots of different drinks and wines on tap (for "free") and some great, "homemade" apps like chicken wrapped in bacon. Kids were in pool with wife on duty so only stayed a short time but was pleasantly surprised.


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> Good luck - let us know. Aren't you supposed to be at a beach? Check out Lameshur or at least Salt Pond - or try at least to get to Coral Bay (need car...)
> I was offered a similar deal - but were willing to give me full price on my VOIs for the most part (since we own VOIs that can be sold easily by SVO at a huge profit) - no surprise there - but the purchase price of WSJ CV is huge.



Yeah and the MF are weird, too. So might buy another BV week. The extra steps - and heightened view - wouldn't hurt


----------



## czar

*Confirm or Deny?*

Direct sales is telling me no upgrade/retro credit can be applied to Plat Plus weeks?  Last year I did my upgrade/retro requal using weeks applies to platinum bay vista and it was fine. 

I have $11k worth of equity in a week I picked up for free that I'm trying to use to grab a PlatPlus Lagunamar week with an SDO true plat requal.

Edit: also told that NO Gold week inventory allowed for trade in credit into WSJ.


----------



## DavidnRobin

The price sheet for WSJ CV you posted said no upgrades for Plat+


----------



## czar

Well back home and trying to figure out what to do. 

I bought an Explorer Pkg for $2450, which includes 5 nights in a 2br plus 2 ferry passes (we'd have to buy anyway) so it's basically a wash. 

I am in the process of closing on a SDO true plat week. 

I have a SBP Gold week to (potentially) trade in. 

Would I be better off to (these have been offered to me by rep):

1. Purchase an annual plat plus 1br and requal my SDO week for $27,900 - $2450 EP credit? 229,100/yr SO

2.  Purchase an EOY 2br BV for $24,900 - $2450 EP credit and requal SDO week (he's ckeckong on whether they'll let me requal with this purchase).  221,250/yr SO (higher MF than 1 but guaranteed WSJ access and love it there)

Options not discussed but thinkkng about after reviewing this thread (again!):
3.  Try to see if they still allow upgrades of units and requals - see if I can upgrade my gold SBP week to a higher level SBP and requal my SDO week. 

4.  See if there's an EEY or EOY Lagunamar 2br and requal my SDO week 

FYI - known issues: no trade in credits toward purchase of developer plat plus weeks system wide. No Gold season trade ins for WSJ. 

Am I missing a different scenario?


----------



## okwiater

Scenario 5: re-evaluate the value of SVN Elite and buy high-SO/low-MF resale weeks instead.


----------



## czar

okwiater said:


> Scenario 5: re-evaluate the value of SVN Elite and buy high-SO/low-MF resale weeks instead.



Thanks. 

I'm really less interested in the elite status and more interested in leveraging this strategy to get access to the cheap SO (e.g., SDO true plat), so maybe I'm posting in the wrong place. 

The reality is that WSJ BV flexibility and location works best for us and its voluntary but I also want to have access to those SO should we want to book somewhere else. That's why I'm trying to leverage this strategy, and thinking about the cost of WKV (and yes, it's resale value is likely to remain stable), I'm spending a similar amount to get access to cheap SO with the potential to get some level of potential developer benefits and some reduced fees.  But the elite status itself isn't the enticement for me. 

I'm thinking by posting this I've answred my own question. Since I want the BV access, better to try to work out that scenario for the requal of the SDO week.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I think that this thread is appropriate, but really hard to piece together what you have, and what you are trying to accomplish.  It seems like spending >$20K to get more SOs will be hard to justify - it may just come down to spending the money to get the vacations you want.

What do you own in the SVO family (resale, Developer)?
What SOs are associated with these? Which are resale SOs at V resorts that can be requaled?
What is offered by SVO to 'upgrade'?
What do you want to end up with?  What is the cost? What would the annual MFs be?
How many SOs would you end up with?


----------



## SMHarman

czar said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I'm really less interested in the elite status and more interested in leveraging this strategy to get access to the cheap SO (e.g., SDO true plat), so maybe I'm posting in the wrong place.
> 
> The reality is that WSJ BV flexibility and location works best for us and its voluntary but I also want to have access to those SO should we want to book somewhere else. That's why I'm trying to leverage this strategy, and thinking about the cost of WKV (and yes, it's resale value is likely to remain stable), I'm spending a similar amount to get access to cheap SO with the potential to get some level of potential developer benefits and some reduced fees.  But the elite status itself isn't the enticement for me.
> 
> I'm thinking by posting this I've answred my own question. Since I want the BV access, better to try to work out that scenario for the requal of the SDO week.



Yes. You are doing this for the buy where you want to go and the 5*  

There are no cheap star options. 
You buy SDO PP and requal for say 30k and you have realistically given Starwood 30k. 

You buy two WKV for 35k and unless SVO goes bust you have maintained most of that 35k. 

Of course if you want to buy voluntary WSJ then as you not you need to use all tools available to mitigate the purchase price so a requal and trade in and discovery package and bonus star points are the tools you have.


----------



## czar

DavidnRobin said:


> I think that this thread is appropriate, but really hard to piece together what you have, and what you are trying to accomplish.  It seems like spending >$20K to get more SOs will be hard to justify - it may just come down to spending the money to get the vacations you want.
> 
> What do you own in the SVO family (resale, Developer)?
> What SOs are associated with these? Which are resale SOs at V resorts that can be requaled?
> What is offered by SVO to 'upgrade'?
> What do you want to end up with?  What is the cost? What would the annual MFs be?
> How many SOs would you end up with?



SO per _year_:
BV summer 3br (developer) = 196k
SMV 2br plat us EEY (resale & requal) = 74,050
SDO 2br annual true plat (resale in escrow) = 148,100 (if I requal - bought for that purpose)
SBP Gold 2br (resale trader) = 44k if requaled but would not requal this week 

Looking to stay 9-14 days per summer at WSJ
Looking for 1-3 weeks per year additionally to travel to somewhere warm like Harborside, WKORV, WSJ, Lagunamar, or to ski out west. 

We really like the Starwood brand. Have the Amex. Put all of our monthly spend on it so have a bunch of SP. 

In the last year I've booked pres week in a 2br at WSJ, Spring break at WKORV, 2 weeks of spring break at Harborside, and of course my summer week at WSJ. Right now because of the two weeks booked at Harborside we don't have any way to go to WSJ besides our Ex pkg


----------



## okwiater

czar said:


> I'm really less interested in the elite status and more interested in leveraging this strategy to get access to the cheap SO (e.g., SDO true plat)...


 
If the Elite benefits aren't a motivator for you, then I think it's pretty tough to justify making any developer purchases at all. I know you already purchased from the developer once, but you should make sure you're being objective in your decision process so you don't throw good money after bad. Even though there are voluntary resorts that provide cheaper SOs when requalified (e.g. true Platinum SDO), you still come out ahead by purchasing mandatory resorts instead.

Based on your previous post, you currently own a 196,900 SO week and a 148,100 SO week, for a total of 345,000 SOs (unfortunately, that's just shy of being 4*). However, that does leave you just 1 developer purchase away from becoming 5*.

Let's evaluate both scenarios, consisting of obtaining enough SOs to reach 649,000 SOs (the 5* threshold).

*1. Resale*

1x WSJ Hillside Platinum Plus 3-br Pool Villa - 257,700 SOs
1x WKV Platinum Plus 2-br Lockoff - 148,100 SOs

Total acquisition cost: approx. $45K
Equity (i.e. value of ownerships on resale market): approx. $45K

Total SOs: 405,800
Annual maintenance: $4,400
Cost per SO: 1.08 cents

In total, you're out the opportunity cost of $45K and annual maintenance costs of $4,400, for enough SOs to put you in a 2-br lockoff in Hawaii (148,100 SOs) for 19 days. That's $230 per night.

_Note: by going this route, you lose the ability to book in Bay Vista during the home resort preference period. You would be limited to booking 8 months out, when inventory has historically been more restricted._

*2. Requalification*

You could purchase an SDO Platinum Plus 2-br Lockoff (worth 148,100 SOs after requal) along with some additional cheap/free weeks to use for upgrade equity. Then, purchase a WSJ Bay Vista Platinum 3-br from the developer (worth 196,900 SOs).

Total acquisition cost: approx. $45K
Equity (i.e. value of ownerships on resale market): approx. $15K

Total SOs: 345,000
Annual maintenance: $3,400
Cost per SO: 0.99 cents

In total, you're out the same opportunity cost of $45K but also lose equity of about $30K right off the bat. Your annual maintenance costs of $3,400 are less, as is your cost per SO. However, it's only less by 0.09 cents. At that rate, it would take 96 years of usage before you recovered your $30K.

_Note: this assumes the developer still has summer inventory, which I was told recently they do not. It also assumes they would allow you to use resale equity to upgrade into one of these units._

Another strategy would be to purchase the WSJ Bay Vista Platinum 3-br on the resale market, then obtain something like a SMV Platinum Plus from the developer (these become available once in awhile). This would result in the same number of SOs, but would likely bring your acquisition cost down by about $10-15K in exchange for slightly higher MF.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Another reason this forum is so great...


----------



## Bob808

okwiater, what is an "opportunity cost"?


----------



## czar

Okwiater,

Thanks so much for the insights. Really helpful. I think the reason I got this in my head is because of BV. I know I can go sometime between weeks 19-33 whereas VGV is fixed and much harder to trade for a different week. I toyed with purchasing a VGV platinum plus week but I didn't see the value of it since I don't think I'd be able to use it much at all in the near future. I'm trying to find the best flexibility to be able to stay at WSJ most years but also have access to other SVN resorts. But maybe paying the premium I'm looking at for access to those SO just isn't worth it. 

But your second scenario is what I had in mind but with a difference in the acquisition cost:

*2. Requalification*

_You could purchase an SDO Platinum Plus 2-br Lockoff (worth 148,100 SOs after requal) along with some additional cheap/free weeks to use for upgrade equity. Then, purchase a WSJ Bay Vista Platinum 3-br from the developer (worth 196,900 SOs)._

Total acquisition cost: approx. $45K 
CZAR EDIT: $23k I'm projecting. That's what it cost me last year but they haven't committed to anything on this and right now there are only EOY 2br weeks. I have to imagine that more BV inventory will pop up as people trade into CV. 

Equity (i.e. value of ownerships on resale market): approx. $15K 
CZAR EDIT: I think closer to $10k

I worry about investing so much into WKV in case things change. I don't know if it's somewhere I would travel to. I know I'd go to WSJ. 

Thanks again gives me lots to think about. 



okwiater said:


> If the Elite benefits aren't a motivator for you, then I think it's pretty tough to justify making any developer purchases at all. I know you already purchased from the developer once, but you should make sure you're being objective in your decision process so you don't throw good money after bad. Even though there are voluntary resorts that provide cheaper SOs when requalified (e.g. true Platinum SDO), you still come out ahead by purchasing mandatory resorts instead.
> 
> Based on your previous post, you currently own a 196,900 SO week and a 148,100 SO week, for a total of 345,000 SOs (unfortunately, that's just shy of being 4*). However, that does leave you just 1 developer purchase away from becoming 5*.
> 
> Let's evaluate both scenarios, consisting of obtaining enough SOs to reach 649,000 SOs (the 5* threshold).
> 
> *1. Resale*
> 
> 1x WSJ Hillside Platinum Plus 3-br Pool Villa - 257,700 SOs
> 1x WKV Platinum Plus 2-br Lockoff - 148,100 SOs
> 
> Total acquisition cost: approx. $45K
> Equity (i.e. value of ownerships on resale market): approx. $45K
> 
> Total SOs: 405,800
> Annual maintenance: $4,400
> Cost per SO: 1.08 cents
> 
> In total, you're out the opportunity cost of $45K and annual maintenance costs of $4,400, for enough SOs to put you in a 2-br lockoff in Hawaii (148,100 SOs) for 19 days. That's $230 per night.
> 
> _Note: by going this route, you lose the ability to book in Bay Vista during the home resort preference period. You would be limited to booking 8 months out, when inventory has historically been more restricted._
> 
> *2. Requalification*
> 
> You could purchase an SDO Platinum Plus 2-br Lockoff (worth 148,100 SOs after requal) along with some additional cheap/free weeks to use for upgrade equity. Then, purchase a WSJ Bay Vista Platinum 3-br from the developer (worth 196,900 SOs).
> 
> Total acquisition cost: approx. $45K
> Equity (i.e. value of ownerships on resale market): approx. $15K
> 
> Total SOs: 345,000
> Annual maintenance: $3,400
> Cost per SO: 0.99 cents
> 
> In total, you're out the same opportunity cost of $45K but also lose equity of about $30K right off the bat. Your annual maintenance costs of $3,400 are less, as is your cost per SO. However, it's only less by 0.09 cents. At that rate, it would take 96 years of usage before you recovered your $30K.
> 
> _Note: this assumes the developer still has summer inventory, which I was told recently they do not. It also assumes they would allow you to use resale equity to upgrade into one of these units._
> 
> Another strategy would be to purchase the WSJ Bay Vista Platinum 3-br on the resale market, then obtain something like a SMV Platinum Plus from the developer (these become available once in awhile). This would result in the same number of SOs, but would likely bring your acquisition cost down by about $10-15K in exchange for slightly higher MF.


----------



## okwiater

Bob808 said:


> okwiater, what is an "opportunity cost"?


 
"Opportunity cost" is the cost of having forgone an alternative choice. In the resale scenario I laid out, the cost of the resale ownerships was about $45K and the market value (equity) was $45K. So, although you haven't "lost" any money on paper, you've lost the ability to invest that $45K somewhere else.



			
				czar said:
			
		

> I think the reason I got this in my head is because of BV. I know I can go sometime between weeks 19-33 whereas VGV is fixed and much harder to trade for a different week.


 
I totally understand this hesitation. It's hard to know what the impacts on availability will be, from the addition of Coral Vista inventory as well as the increase in StarOptions across the board (resulting in much greater incentive to trade out of WSJ). My personal feeling is that these factors will make it easier to perform SO trades into WSJ. However, there are no guarantees.

Just as an additional data point: I acquired a WSJ Plat+ Pool Villa last year and was able to trade my fixed week to another week during my home resort fixed-to-float period (i.e. 8-10 months). The online reservation system makes this much easier than it was previously. (However, there is still far less flexibility than at BV as I only had my choice of the 3 weeks that happened to be tossed back in the pool by their owners.)

If it were me, I'd probably go ahead and make the jump to 5* if it could be done for $23K as you're saying. I would do it knowing full well that I'm paying a premium to do so and that it's probably not the most economical choice. But with all those SOs, the intangible benefits of 5* (such as possible early check-in, check-out, wait-list without cancelation, etc.) might make it worthwhile.

But, are you sure it can be done for $23K? Previously, the rule for WSJ and Hawaii was that $40K in new money was required to requalify (as opposed to $20K for mainland resorts). That's why I used the $45K number, and suggested an alternative approach of purchasing BV on the resale market and requalifying it with a mainland property. That would certainly change the math a bit. You might also consider purchasing a BV on the resale market and not requalifying it at all -- just use it to travel to WSJ and use your other SOs for the other resorts. That's another possibility that would prevent immediate loss of equity.


----------



## czar

Again, thanks for the input. Great advice. 

I'm not sure about the requal or trade in opportunities at WSJ. Last year I did it because I purchased a ~$50k week minus equity trades I got for a total of <$1k IIRC. This is what it looked like:

$48,095 + $1095 closing costs =  $49,190 less trade-in credit of $28,240 and $1985.50 from my Explorer Pkg = final purchase price of $18,964.50.

I requaled an EEY SMV which I paid about $2200 so total investment less than $23k (I used the Expl Pkg for SP conversion and at 2¢/point I consider that a wash). 

I also earned lots of bonus SP on this transaction from my Starwood Amex, but no we are getting into murky waters, aren't we?

Right now they're saying no summer inventory, and no equity trades allowed into plat plus (although they offered me a $99k hillside 3br!). I think (hope) you're right about the CV inventory making things easier. I'm hoping that I'll be able to book 4-5 night towards the end of August next summer to tack onto my expl pkg. 

I'll see what they say Monday. Worst case is I enjoy my Exp pkg next summer and sell my SDO week and then either buy a resale BV and just enjoy it or take the WKV plunge. 

Good to know about plat plus trade flexibility. Maybe that could work for us. I have time on my side so I'll keep my eyes open. I expect so,e more inventory to hit resale market around MF time 

Again thanks for all the advice and insight; incredibly helpful. I credit tug advice with getting me this far, and I'm super happy with what we own. 



okwiater said:


> "Opportunity cost" is the cost of having forgone an alternative choice. In the resale scenario I laid out, the cost of the resale ownerships was about $45K and the market value (equity) was $45K. So, although you haven't "lost" any money on paper, you've lost the ability to invest that $45K somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally understand this hesitation. It's hard to know what the impacts on availability will be, from the addition of Coral Vista inventory as well as the increase in StarOptions across the board (resulting in much greater incentive to trade out of WSJ). My personal feeling is that these factors will make it easier to perform SO trades into WSJ. However, there are no guarantees.
> 
> Just as an additional data point: I acquired a WSJ Plat+ Pool Villa last year and was able to trade my fixed week to another week during my home resort fixed-to-float period (i.e. 8-10 months). The online reservation system makes this much easier than it was previously. (However, there is still far less flexibility than at BV as I only had my choice of the 3 weeks that happened to be tossed back in the pool by their owners.)
> 
> If it were me, I'd probably go ahead and make the jump to 5* if it could be done for $23K as you're saying. I would do it knowing full well that I'm paying a premium to do so and that it's probably not the most economical choice. But with all those SOs, the intangible benefits of 5* (such as possible early check-in, check-out, wait-list without cancelation, etc.) might make it worthwhile.
> 
> But, are you sure it can be done for $23K? Previously, the rule for WSJ and Hawaii was that $40K in new money was required to requalify (as opposed to $20K for mainland resorts). That's why I used the $45K number, and suggested an alternative approach of purchasing BV on the resale market and requalifying it with a mainland property. That would certainly change the math a bit. You might also consider purchasing a BV on the resale market and not requalifying it at all -- just use it to travel to WSJ and use your other SOs for the other resorts. That's another possibility that would prevent immediate loss of equity.


----------



## czar

Well I figured this out. Direct sales got very creative with me and I'm happy with the price point and equity I'll have with the units I'm getting. 

Again thanks everyone for your feedback. Really helpful in thinking through the different scenarios.


----------



## DavidnRobin

czar said:


> Well I figured this out. Direct sales got very creative with me and I'm happy with the price point and equity I'll have with the units I'm getting.
> 
> Again thanks everyone for your feedback. Really helpful in thinking through the different scenarios.



Are you going to share details with those of us who are interested?


----------



## KACTravels

DavidnRobin said:


> Are you going to share details with those of us who are interested?



I've been watching this thread and am interested in the details too!


----------



## okwiater

KACTravels said:


> I've been watching this thread and am interested in the details too!


Me three!!


----------



## czar

post deleted.


----------



## LisaRex

czar said:


> post deleted.



How cryptic is that? :ignore:


----------



## DavidnRobin

Big Brother is watching...


----------



## czar

LisaRex said:


> How cryptic is that? :ignore:



Haha. Well, David May have it right...but I don't want to count my chickens. Too many holes in the fence.


----------



## czar

Ok, well term sheet has been signed and paperwork delivered, so I am comfortable sharing what I was able to work out with *wood. 

I am purchasing an annual (although they had no annual inventory so they are subbing an EEY and EOY) 2br SVV Bella for $25,900. They are allowing me to trade in a Gold SBP week I got for free on TUG (thanks RLG).  That brings net cost down to $14,800. I can then take $1480 off that by applying Exp Pkg I bought. With this, I am re qualifying my SDO week and gettin 30k SP.


----------



## DeniseM

How many Staroptions will you end up with (total)?

What will your total MF's be?


----------



## czar

Total MF approx $5200 for 500,050 SO

Total approx Out of pocket: $37,000

Resorts now owned: WSJ, SDO, SMV, SVV

SP's rec'd: 250,000

Status: 4*


----------



## capjak

czar said:


> Total MF approx $5200 for 500,050 SO
> 
> Total approx Out of pocket: $37,000
> 
> Resorts now owned: WSJ, SDO, SMV, SVV
> 
> SP's rec'd: 250,000
> 
> Status: 4*



That's a pretty low price for all those staroptions and MFs are not bad either...

Congrats


----------



## Bob808

czar said:


> Ok, well term sheet has been signed and paperwork delivered, so I am comfortable sharing what I was able to work out with *wood.
> 
> I am purchasing an annual (although they had no annual inventory so they are subbing an EEY and EOY) 2br SVV Bella for $25,900. They are allowing me to trade in a Gold SBP week I got for free on TUG (thanks RLG).  That brings net cost down to $14,800. I can then take $1480 off that by applying Exp Pkg I bought. With this, I am re qualifying my SDO week and gettin 30k SP.



Outstanding!


----------



## YYJMSP

czar said:


> Total MF approx $5200 for 500,050 SO
> 
> Total approx Out of pocket: $37,000



Wow, nice!

If we scale up your SOs to ours, our MFs are about 25% higher, and we spent 3x as much to get there...


----------



## okwiater

czar said:


> Total MF approx $5200 for 500,050 SO
> 
> Resorts now owned: WSJ, SDO, SMV, SVV



How are your MFs so low? I'm assuming you own a 3br in WSJ and 2br everywhere else?


----------



## czar

okwiater said:


> How are your MFs so low? I'm assuming you own a 3br in WSJ and 2br everywhere else?



Okay, let's make sure my math is correct!

Three-bedroom Westin St. John is around $2400. 

The two bedroom Bella unit is just shy of $1100. 

The SDO is around $1100 I think?

And the Sheridan Mountain Vista is an every other year and I think the annual is around $1200

I don't recall the exact amounts I did look them up in the database and for the ones that are already listed in my account on my star Central.

So I come up with a number around $5200?  I didn't calculate them with the SVN fee.


----------



## okwiater

czar said:


> And the Sheridan Mountain Vista is an every other year



Ahhhh, didn't realize it was an eoy. Yup your numbers look good. Great job making a great deal!


----------



## LisaRex

Does WSJ include properly insurance?


----------



## czar

LisaRex said:


> Does WSJ include properly insurance?



Yes although it will increase a little from last year to this year. 

The 3br BV is definitely the cheapest 3br option at WSJ compared to Hillside or CV (although Hillside is definitely larger and more extravagant!). We debated bw a 2br and 3 br when we were deciding to purchase; glad we went with the 3br.

Here's the breakdown. Came to $2425 last year with the SVN fee for addl week.


----------



## 2disneydads

*Help for a Clueless Newbie*

Hello, All,

We are in the process of purchasing some resale intervals at Harbourside.  If everything works out, we'll have a Gold Season 2 bedroom for about 97,000 StarOptions, a Gold Season 3 bedroom for 125,000 StarOptions and an EOY Silver Season 1 bedroom for 37,000 StarOptions (odd years).  We're buying these to use at Harbourside, with some use of the StarOptions for stays at other VSE resorts.  We got very good prices for the intervals, we believe.

Having stumbled upon this thread, I would be interested in learning how I could use these intervals (if at all) to springboard into 3, 4 or 5 Star elite membership.  Any other VSE intervals we would buy would be for StarOptions purposes only, so we would choose most StarOptions for least maintenance fees.  (We accept that the Harbourside maintenace fees will be high.)

Could anyone help guide my analysis to figure out if it is possible or economically feasible to try to get to elite status?  Are the benefits worth the cost and effort?  We're at the highest levels in HGVC and MVCI already, so we have systems where we get the benefits of elite membership.  

I hate to be so clueless, but the VSE aspect of Harbourside originally was not something that was important to us, assuming that as resale buyers we had no shot at elite status.  But this thread has intrigued me.

Thank you in advance for any guidance or advice anyone might be able to provide.

John (2disneydads)


----------



## DeniseM

Hi John -  

[Oops - I corrected the math.]

The benefits of 3 and 4 Star Elite are minimal, so unless you are going to go all the way to 5 Star Elite, it is not worth the the cost involved.  (Probably a _minimum_ of $60K+ in your case.)

Starting where you are, it will require multiple (expensive) purchases from the developer, to reach 5 Star Elite, because you are still 390,000 Staroptions short.  This is the equivalent of 2.6 2 bdm. lock-offs worth 148,100 Staroptions each.

*5 Star Elite = Interval ownership equivalent to at least 649,000 StarOptions*

Since we don't know what is going to happen with requalifying, Elite Status, or SPG Platinum, under the 2 new management companies, I think I would wait and see what happens before I proceeded with this strategy.


----------



## LisaRex

2disneydads, you have a few issues.  First is that SPG (hotel branch of Starwood) was recently acquired by Marriott.  The CEO has implied that the two programs will eventually merge, although not in the immediate future. However, it is widely speculated that this eventual merger will be a bad deal for SPG elites.  

http://time.com/money/4114661/marriott-starwood-merger-rewards-points/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/upshot/marriott-merger-has-starwood-lovers-nervous.html?_r=0

One would HOPE that Marriott would recognize SVO elites, including those who pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Starwood timeshares with the promise of earning SPG PFL (Platinum For Life or, more accurately, Platinum for as long as they owned their timeshares) status.  However, with the acquisition, there are no guarantees.  Even if Marriott recognizes Platinum status earned via SVO, it may not be for "life," and the benefits may be significantly diluted from what members enjoyed under Starwood. 

So proceed with caution.  I certainly wouldn't pump any more money into VSE timeshares with the expectation of getting elite status in a hotel program, especially since SVO/VSE was acquired by II and SPG is now owned by Marriott.  

Your second issue is as DeniseM indicates.  You'll have to buy several VOIs from the developer in order to qualify your resale purchases. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars, at a minimum, in order to achieve PFL status, which IMO WAS the only elite level worth pursuing.  PFL was, indeed, very valuable, but only for folks who stayed in hotels.  I mean, what good is the promise of a suite upgrade at the Westin in Paris, if you never travel to Paris?  It's even more worthless if Marriott says that they'll honor your SPG Platinum status...for 2 years.


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## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> Hi John -
> 
> [Oops - I corrected the math.]
> 
> The benefits of 3 and 4 Star Elite are minimal, so unless you are going to go all the way to 5 Star Elite, it is not worth the the cost involved.  (Probably a _minimum_ of $60K+ in your case.)
> 
> Starting where you are, it will require multiple (expensive) purchases from the developer, to reach 5 Star Elite, because you are still 390,000 Staroptions short.  This is the equivalent of 2.6 2 bdm. lock-offs worth 148,100 Staroptions each.
> 
> *5 Star Elite = Interval ownership equivalent to at least 649,000 StarOptions*
> 
> Since we don't know what is going to happen with requalifying, Elite Status, or SPG Platinum, under the 2 new management companies, I think I would wait and see what happens before I proceeded with this strategy.



They're 408,500 short, since the EOY only counts for half its SO's...

Each requal still requires a minimum $20K developer purchase to go with it, but I don't think you'll find a developer unit worth 148,100 SO's for less than around $35K.  That leaves them looking at spending around $105K to get to 5 Star Elite.


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## DeniseM

YYJMSP said:


> They're 408,500 short, since the EOY only counts for half its SO's...
> 
> Each requal still requires a minimum $20K developer purchase to go with it, but I don't think you'll find a developer unit worth 148,100 SO's for less than around $35K.  That leaves them looking at spending around $105K to get to 5 Star Elite.



I agree - good catch on the EOY Staroptions.


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## 2disneydads

Thank you all.  It's not worth the money.  When I need to use elite status, I'll stay with MVCI or HGVC.  I might buy some other resale units with StarOptions, but that will be for use without any elite kicker.  The only elite benefit that we use consistently is the early booking window with MVCI.  It's a nice plus.  We might use the other benefits as we start retiring, but not a whole lot now.


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## DeniseM

2disneydads said:


> Thank you all.  It's not worth the money.  When I need to use elite status, I'll stay with MVCI or HGVC.  I might buy some other resale units with StarOptions, but that will be for use without any elite kicker.  The only elite benefit that we use consistently is the early booking window with MVCI.  It's a nice plus.  We might use the other benefits as we start retiring, but not a whole lot now.



With VSE - there is no early booking window.  Really, the only significant Elite benefit is the SPG Platinum status and who knows what will happen to that, since Marriott bought out SPG.


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## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> With VSE - there is no early booking window.  Really, the only significant Elite benefit is the SPG Platinum status and who knows what will happen to that, since Marriott bought out SPG.



I'd say the benefits (highest to lowest value) are the wait-list, the extended dates/no fees for banking and conversion, and SPG Platinum and the 10% bonus on SPG conversion.

It probably doesn't make sense to spend in the range of $125K all-in to get there from scratch at this point in the game, especially given whatever changes are coming.

If all you're after is SPG Platinum, you can probably do that a LOT cheaper than your annual MFs if you actually stay at the hotels with that same money, which makes more sense since that status only has value at the hotels...


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## Xer089d

I am trying to grasp the $20,000 needed to retro.

If your week is valued at 10,000 by SVN ( making up numbers) is the 20k based on 

10k retro + 10k cash = ***20k buying power***

Or 

10k retro + ***20k cash*** = 30k buying power

Which ***20k*** are they looking for?


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## tschwa2

They generally want $20,000 in new money.
In terms of trade in they are also picky about what can trade in for what.  They may value your week at $10,000 but depending on what it is they may only allow that trade in value to go for a more valuable unit at the same resort or even only toward a flexoption purchase.


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