# Exchange power shouldn't be so difficult with RCI



## rickandcindy23 (Nov 15, 2009)

I have been thinking a lot about our past exchanges through RCI, especially as I have been looking for equally good exchanges for our future.  We had great trading power before, and I mean GREAT trading power.  For the past nine years, our prime summer weeks at Val Chatelle have pulled incredible stuff, and even a year in advance, when much of the Hawaii inventory is deposited.  

I see big problems with the "New RCI."  Our exchange power is very reduced over a year ago.  As a matter of fact, our weeks are pulling about 30% less than they did before 5/30/2009.  The absence of DVC, Hawaii a year out, and prime summer areas which we easy trades before, and the decision to leave RCI was just easy.  

If a prime summer week in North Carolina or Colorado, or any other state where summer is prime and there is lots to do, is deposited and grabbed by an ongoing or new search, shouldn't that week be considered as a very high trader? 

As long as the resort is in great shape, and the area is in fairly high demand, I don't see why the trading power has to be reduced because there are lots of resorts in the area.


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## bnoble (Nov 15, 2009)

Two sides to this coin.

On one side is your situation.

On the other is this argument---by limiting high demand weeks to other high demand weeks, you make it more likely that someone depositing a very desirable week gets value in return, increasing the chances that they'll deposit again.  And, more deposits is more revenue, etc. etc.

So, that leaves us with the question of what is high demand?  Realistically, there's plenty of summer CO or inland NC for summer, though perhaps not at your specific resorts.  Is there something that makes those resorts special, to the point that everyone would much rather have them than the alternatives?  Will people wait and not take exchanges at nearby resorts, waiting for yours?  If not, then your resorts aren't in "high demand," even if they don't themselves have a lot of availability.

Reasonable people could pick either strategy---limit "trading up" to encourage quality depositors to keep depositing by making sure they are happy, or allow significant "trading up" to not turn away people with deposits in a little lower demand.  

RCI very consciously switched from a more liberal 'trade up' policy to a less liberal one.  I suspect they have their reasons.  If enough people take your tack and withdraw, they will loosen again, unless withdrawals are outnumbered by renewed deposits from more in-demand weeks.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 15, 2009)

What you say makes perfect sense, Brian.  

I wish more people would express their disappointment in the exchange power of their weeks and walk away from RCI.  I am doing my part, by spreading the word on alternate exchange companies to three of our HOA-managed resorts.  

We did get back all three of our Foxrun weeks: 26, 27 and 28.  I had to complain loudly, but it did finally work.  It was VRI who fought RCI with me on it.  I am very happy to own at a resort that has a management company that truly cares about our situation.  

If I knew what RCI really wanted for deposits, I might consider buying a week or two in that place, as long as the fees were under $700 per week.  I would love to get DVC 2 bedroom units again, as I could do with 7 of my weeks before 5/30.  I just cannot take the chance of buying something and have it not work, or what if RCI changed things again?  I couldn't deal with it, seriously I couldn't.  So I am out of the RCI weeks game and only care about points.


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## gmarine (Nov 15, 2009)

Cindy,

Unfortunately trade power has to be adjusted from time to time to account for supply and demand. I do feel bad it has impacted you so severely. I'm not a big fan of RCI in general, however since the recent Starwood/II changes I have deposited my weeks with RCI instead of II and I'm happy with the results.

 Generally only very high quality resorts should be able to trade into DVC, especially into two bedroom units. I'm not familiar with Val Chatelle but the TUG reviews are mediocre. I dont know how accurate those reviews are, but would you consider Val Chatelle to be comparable to DVC in quality ?

If so, then you may have a legitimate complaint. If the resort is not comparable in quality to DVC then you were fortunate to have exchanged there in the past. That being said, if RCI doesnt serve your needs then it makes sense to go elsewhere. Thats basically what I am doing now with II. 

Maybe at some point your trade power gets adjusted upward. I've seen it go both ways with II, so it may be possible with RCI as well. Good luck.


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## Carolinian (Nov 16, 2009)

There reason is actually quite a simple one.  They would rather rent as much of that high demand inventory as they can get away with to the general public.  That is why way too much of it that is deposited for exchange immediately goes into their rental pool.




bnoble said:


> Two sides to this coin.
> 
> On one side is your situation.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Nov 16, 2009)

The key to a fair trade is supply and demand.  ''Quality'' is only one of the drivers of demand.  Location is a more important driver of demand for most people.  Trying to design a system around one factor is just nuts, unless there is another motive, like sluffing off inventory for rentals.  Most DVC is in overbuilt Orlando.  If we are going to use only one factor, maybe it should be that timeshares in overbuilt areas should only be allowed to trade into other overbuilt areas like Williamsburg, Branson, Massanutten, Canary Islands, etc.

If supply and demand are in balance, then it is a fair trade.  And if it balances to something you think is a lesser resort, what that really means is that maybe your resort is not as hot as you thought it was.  The market - supply and demand - are the only true objective determinants, not something as subjective as ''quality''.




gmarine said:


> Cindy,
> 
> Unfortunately trade power has to be adjusted from time to time to account for supply and demand. I do feel bad it has impacted you so severely. I'm not a big fan of RCI in general, however since the recent Starwood/II changes I have deposited my weeks with RCI instead of II and I'm happy with the results.
> 
> ...


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## bnoble (Nov 16, 2009)

> If I knew what RCI really wanted for deposits


But you do know---you've seen enough trade test results to get an idea of what is and isn't pulling top-tier deposits.  Of course, most of those weeks aren't $700 or less, and many of them will carry significant acquisition costs as well.  You may need to either adjust your budget upward, or your expectations downward.

Worse, if you do go that route, you are just chasing your tail, because that's only what is pulling them *today*.  As more people learn what is and isn't in high demand, they try to obtain inexpensive weeks in those areas for the express purpose of trading.  That increases supply.  That eventually can reduce the supply/demand curve unfavorably, lowering that resort's trade power, leaving you back where you started.

At the end of the day, buying to trade is simply a gamble.  You can improve the odds, but you can't rig the game, especially in the long term.


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## Dave*H (Nov 16, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> If I knew what RCI really wanted for deposits, I might consider buying a week or two in that place, as long as the fees were under $700 per week.  I would love to get DVC 2 bedroom units again, as I could do with 7 of my weeks before 5/30.  I just cannot take the chance of buying something and have it not work, or what if RCI changed things again?  I couldn't deal with it, seriously I couldn't.  So I am out of the RCI weeks game and only care about points.


The obvious way to get around RCI changing the trade power of your weeks and since you like DVC so much, is to just buy DVC.  Yes, it may cost a more than buying something cheaper elsewhere and trading in, but it will also save you the aggravation of worrying about this.  You'll get the same preferences as any other DVC owner and not be at the mercy of what gets deposited or the ever changing whims of RCI.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 16, 2009)

I can get DVC with RCI Points.  DVC is fairly abundant in RCI Points, but the weeks thing was working well for me until recently.  

It's not like I cannot get DVC at all, so I won't be buying DVC.  

I wouldn't mind paying more in MF's to get DVC, but I cannot see myself depositing and wondering.  With II, you don't have to wonder what your weeks will pull.  I realize Starwood and II got together and decided we shouldn't deposit the weeks we want into II, and our deposits would be an average of the trading power in our season.  With SBP, I don't think that will hurt too terribly much.  

I don't think it will affect me as much as this thing with RCI has.  Depositing with RCI is a crapshoot.  I might consider depositing SBP with RCI, but then again, if Starwood is also in cahoots with RCI, the weeks will do MUCH WORSE in RCI than II, simply because: 1) RCI has 1-in-? rules that keep me from getting good trades. 2) I cannot judge trading power before depositing with RCI, and they say "deposit is final," and I already pushed them on that one--in getting back my three summer Foxrun weeks. 3) RCI has no Marriotts/ Starwoods, Hyatts, etc., and I get those with my FOXRUN weeks, so I know SBP will still get them, even with the new rules.

That's my opinion.  RCI is NOT the best there is, that is for sure.  I KNOW DVC with defect from RCI, and I hope it happens soon.  The Hilton/ RCI relationship could also end at any time.  Maybe Hilton owners would like to have MORE CHOICES for places like Maui than RCI can offer.


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## bnoble (Nov 16, 2009)

> I KNOW DVC with defect from RCI


Don't count on it.

The one thing RCI is very very good at is marketing rental units---better than any other exchange company.  I'm guessing that they are becoming a non-trivial outlet for DVC developer inventory that must be rented for various reasons.  And, if you think this decision is being made for any reason other than to line Mickey's pockets, you're fooling yourself.


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## e.bram (Nov 16, 2009)

RickandCindy:
Buy a summer on the ocean front week and if it then doesn't trade well, you a reasonable complaint. ANY place inland(except for an in/out ski resort, in ski season) will never be prime.


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## "Roger" (Nov 16, 2009)

Cindi,

Basically what you are saying is that people should be able to trade up into DVC.  

Now look at it from the DVC owner's viewpoint.  People are trading up into their units (and other very high demand timeshares), but when it comes time for them to trade, they find that most of the best units are already gone.  Why would they want to stay with RCI?

If RCI wants to attract and keep high end timeshares, they need to keep the owners of those units happy.  The owners of these units want good options, and they don't want to have to make their reservations at 2:00 in the morning a year and a half out to have those options.

Points?  There is good availability for DVC units, but also a high price (in point values) to spend.  In the points system, a DVC owner won't feel like they are at the wrong end of a game of Robin Hood.


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## Steve (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't know very many DVC owners who would be happy with an exchange  into either Val Chatelle or Foxrun.  In my opinion, DVC for either of those resorts is not a "like for like" exchange.  It never has been.  Therefore, the reverse is also true.  Neither Val Chatelle nor Foxrun for DVC is a "like for like" exchange.  

What is a "like for like" exchange would be trading a summer week at Val chatelle for a summer week at Foxrun...or vice versa.  That's much more reasonable.  

As has been said so many times, it is best to buy where you like to vacation.  If you're not willing to do that, then at least buy someplace that is comparable to where you'd like to vacation.  

It was fun when cheap weeks easily traded into much nicer resorts, but the past is gone and it's not coming back.  Better to accept the changes and adapt than to keep beating a dead horse.  :deadhorse: 

Steve


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## Carolinian (Nov 17, 2009)

e.bram said:


> RickandCindy:
> Buy a summer on the ocean front week and if it then doesn't trade well, you a reasonable complaint. ANY place inland(except for an in/out ski resort, in ski season) will never be prime.



While you have hit upon two major areas of prime timeshare locations, you have also missed some, such as urban timeshares (New York, Charleston, London, Paris, Venice, Vienna, etc.).


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## Carolinian (Nov 17, 2009)

On the other hand, someone who owned at extremely high demand and low supply Allen House in London would probably raise his eyebrows at someone who owned in vastly overbuilt Orlando, even if it is DVC in Orlando, being able to trade into London with it.  Trading from an overbuilt area into a low supply / very high demand area is NOT "like for like".

The key is SUPPLY and DEMAND, not bells and whistles.

You will find DVC availible online a lot more often than you will find Allen House.

Personally, DVC is not that big a deal to me.  I was once offered DVC in Hilton Head by DAE, but when I found out it's location, I turned it down flat.  You have to drive to the beach!  That is an absolute deal killer for me for a beach area timeshare.  I at least found a standard resort through RCI where I could walk across the street to the beach.  That was FAR preferable.




Steve said:


> I don't know very many DVC owners who would be happy with an exchange  into either Val Chatelle or Foxrun.  In my opinion, DVC for either of those resorts is not a "like for like" exchange.  It never has been.  Therefore, the reverse is also true.  Neither Val Chatelle nor Foxrun for DVC is a "like for like" exchange.
> 
> What is a "like for like" exchange would be trading a summer week at Val chatelle for a summer week at Foxrun...or vice versa.  That's much more reasonable.
> 
> ...


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 17, 2009)

Val Chatelle is Silver Crown and sits in Summit County, Colorado, which is a prime summer destination for travelers, and even the prime ski weeks cannot trade into DVC anymore.  I know this because I am on the board and owners are complaining to us and to the management company.  

If you wouldn't stay there, Steve (moderator), I guess your taste is much more refined than mine.

It's not Mugwump Swamp (Hatrack used to say that) we are talking about here.

As I have said, I can exchange into DVC with points, so I am not being left out in the cold.


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## chellej (Nov 17, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> It's not Mugwump Swamp (Hatrack used to say that) we are talking about here.



This is actually a Kurt Brown saying from well before hatracks time - it goes along with the boiled pizza.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 17, 2009)

Chelle, Kurt Brown was before my time.   I think he's been around here on occasion.  I am a relative newbie to this site, only being here 4 1/2 years.


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## "Roger" (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't for a moment think that Cindi's Colorado unit is Mugwump Swamp, but a comparison of point values ...

Park Place, Utah, Silver Crown, prime ski week, two bedroom ... (this is about as close as I can come to a Colorado, silver crown, ski week) ...67,000 points.

Disney, overbuilt Orlando, two bedroom, July (prime time to compare with above prime time) ... 115, 000 points (varies slightly with specific resort).

While I personally would not be interested in the Disney resort (I too turned down a Disney at Hilton Head in favor of another resort), I am reluctant to judge supply and demand upon my own preferences.  The bottom line is that people really demand the Disney resorts and that is going to affect their evaluations.


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## Steve (Nov 17, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Val Chatelle is Silver Crown and sits in Summit County, Colorado, which is a prime summer destination for travelers, and even the prime ski weeks cannot trade into DVC anymore.  I know this because I am on the board and owners are complaining to us and to the management company.
> 
> If you wouldn't stay there, Steve (moderator), I guess your taste is much more refined than mine.
> 
> ...



For the record, I did not say that I would never stay at Val Chatelle...and I did not say that it was "Mugwump Swamp" or a dump.  I said that I don't know any DVC owners that would be happy exchanging their DVC points for Val Chatelle.  I also said that exchanges between these resorts are not "like for like".  I stand by my comments.

A Silver Crown resort with no amenities on site and no activities is not quite the same as staying at Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge.  Disney resorts have tons of theming, activities, amenities, and proximity to all sorts of attractions.  Val Chatelle has none of that.  I'm not even a major Disney person...and I'm not putting down Val Chatelle...I'm just stating a fact.  These resorts are in completely different categories and an exchange between them is not "like for like".

What's more, while Summit County, Colorado is certainly beautiful, the town of Frisco where Val Chatelle is located is not exactly the prime locale most people are seeking in the Rockies.  It is not Aspen nor Vail...nor even Breckenridge.  It's a nice little town with some charm, but you have to drive to get to any place of interest.  

I'm not sure where the sense of entitlement that Val Chatelle should be able to trade into DVC via RCI weeks comes from.  It makes sense that you can trade via RCI points, however, because the difference in points required makes up for the difference in the resorts.

Steve


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## Laurie (Nov 17, 2009)

Regarding supply & demand: I'm not that familiar with demand for Colorado in the summer, but have noticed a couple of 2-BR units at gold crown Swan Mountain in nearby Dillon CO, for July 2011, have been sitting online at RCI for a couple of months.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 17, 2009)

Laurie, that is because trading power has dropped so significantly, many people who would take Swan Mountain cannot see it anymore.  That is a fact.


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## tombo (Nov 18, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Laurie, that is because trading power has dropped so significantly, many people who would take Swan Mountain cannot see it anymore.  That is a fact.



I can see plenty of Swan Mountain summer weeks and plenty of Val Chatelle summer weeks using a silver crown STUDIO for a trade. How low does one's trading power have to be to not be able to see those resorts?


I currently have a week 51  Florida panhandle STUDIO SILVER CROWN week deposited with RCI ( Holiday Beach Resort-Destin (#1109)  01-Dec-2008 to 31-Dec-2011  [138,653]   Available to Exchange  ). Using this trader I can see 11 Val Chatelle weeks (4 are summer weeks), 36 Swan Mountain Weeks (7 summer weeks), but I can only see 3 DVC Old Key West Weeks (none summer), and not a single other DVC resort at any time of any year. 

Out of all of the ocean front resorts on the Florida Panhandle I can only see one summer week (May, June, July, or August ) in 2010 and none in 2011 using my same studio silver crown trade. So the Florida panhandle and DVC are locations where my trader will not pull summer weeks even though it easily pulls 11 summer weeks at the 2 previously referenced resorts in Colorado. 

I think RCI had Val Chatelle credited with too much trading power in the past and they now have it more in line with reality. Since I can easily trade for plenty of available weeks in the summer and other times in Colorado at Val Chatelle and other places but i can't trade for but one of the DVC resorts (none in summer) and only one summer week oceanfront on the Florida panhandle i would have to say that RCI rightfully has lowered Val Chatelle's trading value to a point where it can't see DVC resorts.

Here are the summer Val Chatelle weeks showing on RCI:
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 14-May-2010 21-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 21-May-2010 28-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 18-Jun-2010 25-Jun-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 17-Sep-2010 24-Sep-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 15-Oct-2010 22-Oct-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 22-Oct-2010 29-Oct-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 22-Apr-2011 29-Apr-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 29-Apr-2011 06-May-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 03-Jun-2011 10-Jun-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 24-Jun-2011 01-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 8 (6) Full 01-Jul-2011 08-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 



Here is what is showing for swan mountain:

  1 BR 4 (4) Full 10-Apr-2010 17-Apr-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 17-Apr-2010 24-Apr-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 24-Apr-2010 01-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 01-May-2010 08-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 22-May-2010 29-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 29-May-2010 05-Jun-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 05-Jun-2010 12-Jun-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 26-Jun-2010 03-Jul-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 17-Jul-2010 24-Jul-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 21-Aug-2010 28-Aug-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 25-Sep-2010 02-Oct-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 02-Oct-2010 09-Oct-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 13-Nov-2010 20-Nov-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 20-Nov-2010 27-Nov-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 27-Nov-2010 04-Dec-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 11-Dec-2010 18-Dec-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 23-Apr-2011 30-Apr-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 30-Apr-2011 07-May-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 21-May-2011 28-May-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 28-May-2011 04-Jun-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 04-Jun-2011 11-Jun-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 11-Jun-2011 18-Jun-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 4 (4) Full 30-Jul-2011 06-Aug-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 28-Nov-2009 05-Dec-2009 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 17-Apr-2010 24-Apr-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 22-May-2010 29-May-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 11-Sep-2010 18-Sep-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 30-Oct-2010 06-Nov-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 27-Nov-2010 04-Dec-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 04-Dec-2010 11-Dec-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 09-Jul-2011 16-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  1 BR 6 (4) Full 10-Sep-2011 17-Sep-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 10-Apr-2010 17-Apr-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 17-Apr-2010 24-Apr-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 06-Nov-2010 13-Nov-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 13-Nov-2010 20-Nov-2010 Exchange Fee Only 

Here is what is showing using the same trade at DVC resorts:

Disney old Key West has 3 total weeks. No other DVC resorts shows any availability.

  Studio 4 (2) Partial 10-Sep-2010 17-Sep-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  Studio 4 (2) Partial 11-Sep-2010 18-Sep-2010 Exchange Fee Only 
  Studio 4 (2) Partial 12-Sep-2010 19-Sep-2010 Exchange Fee Only


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2009)

Tombo, you cannot see the 2 two bedroom units at Swan Mountain in July, and neither can I.  I can only see a 1 bedroom.  I am searching with a prime summer week nearby, 2 bedroom sleeps 8 privately.  You are searching with a studio.  

Alot of what you posted is blue time, which of course I can see.

I see those same DVC units, all studios, and I also see a 1 bedroom at Saratoga Springs for 9/2010 and a studio.


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## Carolinian (Nov 18, 2009)

Allen House in central London has little or none of that theming, activities onsite, or amenities, so maybe that means DVC in Orlando should not be allowed to trade in.  Good.  Allen House will always have a much better supply / demand curve and all year long than DVC.




Steve said:


> For the record, I did not say that I would never stay at Val Chatelle...and I did not say that it was "Mugwump Swamp" or a dump.  I said that I don't know any DVC owners that would be happy exchanging their DVC points for Val Chatelle.  I also said that exchanges between these resorts are not "like for like".  I stand by my comments.
> 
> A Silver Crown resort with no amenities on site and no activities is not quite the same as staying at Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge.  Disney resorts have tons of theming, activities, amenities, and proximity to all sorts of attractions.  Val Chatelle has none of that.  I'm not even a major Disney person...and I'm not putting down Val Chatelle...I'm just stating a fact.  These resorts are in completely different categories and an exchange between them is not "like for like".
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Nov 18, 2009)

Point values are pretty meaningless in valuing anything, as there is way too much insider dealing between RCI and developers in rigging point values.

My classic example is how a blue week in inland New Bern, NC has a higher point value than the same size unit in prime summer on the Outer Banks in a beachfront resort.  And that is WITHIN the Points system.  If one does crossover trades to mooch off of the Weeks system, it is even worse.




"Roger" said:


> I don't for a moment think that Cindi's Colorado unit is Mugwump Swamp, but a comparison of point values ...
> 
> Park Place, Utah, Silver Crown, prime ski week, two bedroom ... (this is about as close as I can come to a Colorado, silver crown, ski week) ...67,000 points.
> 
> ...


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## tombo (Nov 18, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Tombo, you cannot see the 2 two bedroom units at Swan Mountain in July, and neither can I.  I can only see a 1 bedroom.  I am searching with a prime summer week nearby, 2 bedroom sleeps 8 privately.  You are searching with a studio.
> 
> Alot of what you posted is blue time, which of course I can see.
> 
> I see those same DVC units, all studios, and I also see a 1 bedroom at Saratoga Springs for 9/2010 and a studio.



I can't see 2 bed rooms at Swan Mountain, and RCI has it right because I shouldn't be able to see gold crown 2 bed room units using my silver crown studio. I can see a lot of one bed rooms which to me is a trade up for a studio. However I can see plenty of 2 bed room units at Val Chatelle. 

If I am only seeing blue time (which must mean summer weeks) but not seeing any  prime red Christmas and New Years Ski weeks as you say, then that is at it should be also. However Blue weeks must include 4th of July at Val Chatelle in a 2 bed room because my studio is pulling 4th of July and the week before. So in fact I could stay 2 straight weeks in a 2 bed room before and during 4th of July week in 2 bed room units using a winter beach studio as a trade. The following 2 weeks are pulled using my winter beach studio. Do you think that these weeks would be sitting there unclaimed at DVC or almost any beachfront resort. I know you are proud of your resort but it just isn't that high of a demand location for summer or these 2 weeks would already have been grabbed by an RCI exchanger. If summer weeks at your resort are as high demand as you claim, why does my studio pull them and why are they still available for exchange?
2 BR 8 (6) Full 24-Jun-2011 01-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
2 BR 8 (6) Full 01-Jul-2011 08-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 


I double checked and what I deposited was a Week 51 on the beach in the Silver Crown studio (  Holiday Beach Resort-Destin (#1109)  01-Dec-2008 to 31-Dec-2011  [138,653]   Available to Exchange    ). Not only is this a winter week in a studio, this was deposited only 6 months in advance. Granted Destin is a hard to get area and this unit trades well with low MF's, but it is a winter week in a studio on the beach. A non summer beach week studio shouldn't pull prime winter ski weeks at 2 bed room gold crown resorts or summer one bed room or 2 bed room DVC units. I don't see why you think your summer week at a silver crown resort near a ski resort area should. RCI has this one correct IMO.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2009)

Apparently, Colorado resort owners were hit hard by the latest disenhancements, and you wonder why I am complaining.  It's clear to me why I am so upset.  

So you think a 2 bedroom in a Silver Crown for July 4th in Frisco, Colorado is blue time, Tombo?

Vail and Avon are not as popular with Denverites as Frisco and Breck, by the way.  Vail is very commercialized and isn't as pretty.  

And by the way, Breckenridge and Frisco are only ten miles apart, and Frisco is slightly lower in elevation.  And Frisco is just as beautiful a town, albeit lesser known than Breck.  Frisco is also closer to many of the more popular ski areas than Breck, and it's near Dillon Reservoir.  Two resorts in Breck have also suffered severe losses of trading power.  I am saying that RCI got it wrong, and Colorado timeshare owners are upset about it. 

Fortunately, many of the independent Colorado resorts are managed by the same companies, and many of them have strong HOA boards.  I think we will see a trend for depositing into the alternates.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2009)

I want to point out that II is still better than RCI for allowing my "ordinary weeks 26, 27 and 28" at Foxrun to get great stuff, plus they give a bonus week to boot.  

Val Chatelle doesn't exchange with II, and I wish it did. 

The one thing II does watch for is a drop in quality and does ding trade power when it happens.  I know that for a fact.


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## tombo (Nov 18, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So you think a 2 bedroom in a Silver Crown for July 4th in Frisco, Colorado is blue time, Tombo?
> 
> .



I posted weeks I could exchange for at Swan Mountain and Val Chatelle. You said a lot of what i was seeing was blue time. I just pointed out what I was seeing (including 4th of July week) and assumed you must consider it blue time. 

Those weeks are still available to reserve BTW. If I had posted a 4th of july week at DVC or at an ocean front beach resort yesterday do you really think that it would still be available? 

Just pointing out actual demand vs perceived demand. I have several resorts during prime weeks (including 4th of July) that are at resorts and locations I love. However when I go to rent them to others they often rent last minute if at all, and for less than I think they are worth. I NEVER have a problem renting an ocean front 2 bed room week during June or July. I can't say the same thing for a June or July week in Gatlinburg. 

Try renting your summer Val Chatelle weeks and see if you can get enough rental income to rent a summer DVC week from a DVC owner. That will show you relative value and demand of your week versus a DVC week. I think you might be depressed when you see what your week will bring as a rental and what a DVC summer week will bring in rental income. That is a good litmus test to see if you are really making a like for like trade. Do the same with your week versus a Hawaii week. I feel sure the results will be the same and the rental income derived from your Val Chatelle summer week will not pay 1/3 of the money needed to rent DVC or a 2 bed room in Maui. 

Perhaps your heart is giving your resort more value than others give it, or perhaps you feel that because you could take a cheap to buy week with low MF's and get DVC with it  that you should be able to exchange those weeks for DVC weeks forever. It never should have happened and apparently won't ever again.

Be glad for the years that you worked RCI to your advantage, but they have rectified the flaw which allowed summer weeks at silver crowns in colorado to exchange for prime DVC weeks. No one but you and other Val Chatelle owners feel that was ever even close to a like for like trade. Heck I am with you and I try to get the most bang for my timeshare buck too, but in the end when they devalued some of my weeks I have to admit that I was getting way more than I was giving to RCI for years.

 If you really want to go to Disney so many times a year why not buy a week at DVC, HGVC, OLCC, Vistana, Bonnett Creek, etc so the one in 4 rule won't apply to you? Then you can exchange as many times as you want at your home resort using Val Chatelle and you would only have to pay one high Orlando MF. To complain about 1 in 4 rules while not doing the obvious solution of buying a week at one of those resorts is just wasting time. To keep saying I used to be able to is not going to allow you to do it in the future. If I went to Orlando more than one time each and every year I would own at a resort I like and make sure that I could get around the one in four rules. 

I always go by the rule that you only buy resorts you actually want to stay in, not resorts you HOPE will trade for resorts you want to stay in. If you bought Valle Chatelle to use personally it wouldn't hurt you much if they lowered the trading power or not, you would just use them yourself or rent them to others for profit. If you only own them to trade for places you actually want to vacation then lowered trading power will hurt a lot.

As RCI changes we must adapt. If you only want it to be like it used to be then you might as well leave. As much as RCI makes me mad for renting out prime inventory, it is still the best exchange company IMO and I will work it to my advantage any way I can. That is why I purchased a points week even though I am actually trying to sell many of my weeks. From what I have read here exchangers must be in RCI points to maximize trades. So rather than complaining I bought a cheap Points week with a great underlying deeded week. Adaptation beats the heck out of frustration IMO.


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## bnoble (Nov 18, 2009)

Cindy: the problem is that anyone who doesn't live in Denver, or near it, or really know the area, doesn't understand any of that.  They "know" Vail and Breckenridge, and are just as likely to consider them suitable alternatives.  They don't "know" Frisco, and so why would they hold out for it when other suitable alternatives exist?

That, ultimately, is the problem for Summer CO (and, for that matter, Summer inland NC).  There is plenty of availability there for the three summer months in general.  You can give me reasons about why *you* prefer what you do, but what matters is what *most people* considering an exchange there would do.

One thing that does seem to have happened in the 5/30 revision is that *area* was given more weight in evaluating the trade power of an individual deposit.  Resorts in areas that generally have more supply seem to have been dinged more than resorts in areas that generally do not.  

Then, within any specific area, there seems to have been more weight put on *demand* for an individual resort.  For example, DVC and Bonnet Creek are now harder pulls than the Orlando HGVCs during the same period, whereas before they all seemed pretty similar.  I'm guessing that's because the bulk of the inbounds to Orlando are coming for Mickey, and tend to favor those resorts because of their location relative to all things Disney.  You prefer HGVC to Bonnet Creek, because you know the relative strengths and weaknesses of the resorts.  But Grandma and Grandpa, thinking about taking the kids to see Mickey, are just going to look at the gold crown ratings, check map, see the locations, and ask for DVC---and if they can't get that, they'll ask for Bonnet Creek next.

In contrast, as you note, II pays much more attention to resort quality than does RCI.  With RCI, it seems to come down to demand for the area relative to supply, and within the area, demand for different resorts---and those are driven by widely-held perception that may or may not not match which locations are objectively "better".


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## Laurie (Nov 18, 2009)

Another word about these July 2-BR's at Swan Mountain: I can see them with a studio which, since the disenhancement, has lost the ability to see many 2-BR units, at DVC and all over RCI's map. It lost ability entirely to see Manhattan Club, and several nicer Hawaii resorts, including bulk banks. It definitely had a decrease in trade power - in other words, it's not taking a quite top-tier or larger unit to see these Swan Mountain units:

  2 BR 6 (6) Full 18-Jun-2011 25-Jun-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 09-Jul-2011 16-Jul-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 30-Jul-2011 06-Aug-2011 Exchange Fee Only 
  2 BR 6 (6) Full 27-Aug-2011 03-Sep-2011 Exchange Fee Only 

Also my personal opinion about Foxrun: I was initially thrilled to learn about Foxrun, thinking, finally a resort within driving distance that I could use sometimes, and trade sometimes. I'd traded into one Marriott (Monarch) which I loved, and from the raves about Foxrun's trade power at II, I figured it to be equal quality. So I exchanged into Foxrun for leaf season hoping to pick up one to own, and was quite disappointed: the unit was grody and unpleasant, and the location was OK but not outstanding ... not at all equivalent to many nicer timeshares we'd traded into - didn't want to go back, didn't want to own. 

That Foxrun experience doesn't speak to supply and demand per se, but in general, the adjustments in those 2 locations/resorts don't seem strange to me either.

I've lived through many changes in trade power of my owned RCI resorts, and I've bought and sold a bunch, as this has happened. I still own to trade, I agree it's getting more difficult - especially with the skimming of better deposits into RCI's rental inventory - but Cindy, you'll make yourself crazy if you don't have a certain amount of "oh well" attitude with RCI.


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## Egret1986 (Nov 18, 2009)

*Adaptation --- well said, Tombo*



tombo said:


> Perhaps your heart is giving your resort more value than others give it, or perhaps you feel that because you could take a cheap to buy week with low MF's and get DVC with it  that you should be able to exchange those weeks for DVC weeks forever. It never should have happened and apparently won't ever again.
> 
> Be glad for the years that you worked RCI to your advantage, but they have rectified the flaw which allowed summer weeks at silver crowns in colorado to exchange for prime DVC weeks. No one but you and other Val Chatelle owners feel that was ever even close to a like for like trade. Heck I am with you and I try to get the most bang for my timeshare buck too, but in the end when they devalued some of my weeks I have to admit that I was getting way more than I was giving to RCI for years.
> 
> ...



Change is hard.  Cindy has RCI Points and in this thread has stated that she can still get DVCs with her Points.  I think the writing is on the wall about those Colorado summer weeks.  

As Tombo stated, demand can be proven by attempting to rent those summer Colorado weeks versus renting a summer beach week, DVC or Hawaii.  If July 4th weeks are setting online for exchange, that says a lot also.  I can't even see a summer beach week for 2010 or 2011 with my July 4th beach week.  

Cindy has decided to adapt by getting out of RCI Weeks.  That's great and if things work out the way she anticipates.....even greater! 

But it's not bye, bye RCI if you still have RCI Points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2009)

Laurie, why aren't you angrier that your trading power reduced like that?  

Of course, you can see things I cannot, but I am upset that trading power is reduced for everything, and I am trying to get others to see how horrible RCI has been to all of us.  

As far as RCI Points is concerned, it still works, and I hope it still works for a good long time.  Saying bye bye to weeks is my intention, but points is still an option for us.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2009)

Cindy,

There's a book that I think might be worth reading in your spare time.

Here's a link with info about it:

http://www.whomovedmycheese.com/

Steve


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## bnoble (Nov 18, 2009)

> Laurie, why aren't you angrier that your trading power reduced like that?


I'm not Laurie, but I, too, have had a few weeks lowered---for example, it saw Manhattan Club before 5/30, and no longer does.  And I'm not the least bit angry.

When I sit down and see sightings by people who *do* see those weeks, I compare what they are using to what I am using.  And, if I'm honest with myself, the weeks that *do* see Manhattan Club are all more desirable than the week I am using.  Is my week then a dog?  No, it's still a very nice week, that sees some very nice stuff, and lots of stuff I'd be more than happy to take---including some things that, by rights, are "better" than what I'd be giving up to get them.

But, it doesn't see quite everything it used to.  Am I disappointed?  Sure, who wouldn't be?  Am I "angry"?  Not really.  None of this was ever guaranteed, and---again, if I'm honest with myself---there really is a difference between my was-a-tiger and these other still-a-tigers.  So, it's not even "unfair" in a way that would lead to anger.  It's just that RCI has tightened things so that you can't reach as high as you once could.  

Ineed, from where I sit, it's just not reasonable to be "angry" that this change has happened.  As I wrote in my very first response, different exchange systems can reasonably take different positions in how much they allow someone to trade up---there are good reasons to be liberal, and there are other good reasons to be conservative.  RCI has decided to be a bit more conservative.  Time will tell if that is good for their business or not.  If it is good for business, they will keep that position, and perhaps even accelerate it.  If it is not good, it will be liberalized again.


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## cr4909 (Nov 18, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Of course, you can see things I cannot, but I am upset that trading power is reduced for everything, and I am trying to get others to see how horrible RCI has been to all of us.
> 
> As far as RCI Points is concerned, it still works, and I hope it still works for a good long time.  Saying bye bye to weeks is my intention, but points is still an option for us.



It seems like way too many calories are being burned over the exchange thing.  I certainly haven't lost any sleep over it.  I totally concur that RCI Points is the way to go if you aren't in another mini-points system.  Incidentally, I was able to get Swan Mountain Christmas week last year using RCI Points.  No need to worry about trading power or any of that nonsense.

I know it's been said over and over again, but Colorado and NC summer mountain weeks are definitely not the cream of the crop.  Yes, I am sure that they are great local retreats and I don't doubt they are nice resorts.  But looking at it from a more national perspective, are there really lots of people in NY or Seattle or Iowa clamoring to go to Lake Lure, NC?  And I'm sure Colorado is great in the summer but there are lots of resorts there so I'd imagine the demand/supply curve is nothing compared to NYC.  Is someone from Wisconsin getting ready to hop on a plane to Denver and drive 2 hours to Frisco (CO, not San Francisco) for a summer week when the Dells are in their backyard?  Once again, there are obviously people who do that but outside of the Denver metro area I can't see a huge demand for that compared to SoCal beach, San Francisco, top-of-the-line Disney, etc.


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## gmarine (Nov 18, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Laurie, why aren't you angrier that your trading power reduced like that?
> 
> Of course, you can see things I cannot, but I am upset that trading power is reduced for everything, and I am trying to get others to see how horrible RCI has been to all of us.
> 
> As far as RCI Points is concerned, it still works, and I hope it still works for a good long time.  Saying bye bye to weeks is my intention, but points is still an option for us.



Cindy, 

First I just want to say that in general I'm not a big fan of RCI. That being said I dont think RCI did anything wrong in this case. Trading power has to be adjusted from time to time. As I have said, and others have said, trading Val Chatelle for DVC just isnt a like for like exchange. And you really should have never been able to get that exchange. 

IMO, instead of feeling like RCI did something horrible to you, I think you should be grateful to RCI for all the time in the past that you traded into DVC or any other high quality/high demand resort using a mediocre quality/demand resort. 
As you know I own the Twin Rivers resort where you are on the board. Its week 50, three bedroom just outside Winter Park,CO and I got it for free.
As you know it trades extremely poor with II and mediocre with RCI. I dont complain to either one because the way it trades makes total sense. Its a mediocre resort at best, with limited facilities. It shouldnt trade well because the demand for it is low.  And I imagine the demand for Val Chatelle is similar.Thats just the way it is.


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## Egret1986 (Nov 18, 2009)

*This is a crusade which will only take away from your enjoyment of life...*



rickandcindy23 said:


> .... and I am trying to get others to see how horrible RCI has been to all of us.



...by dwelling on what used to be and trying to persuade others that they should feel the way you're feeling.

No, thank you.

You've decided that RCI no longer works for you.  You've decided to move on so to speak.  Those that are unhappy with RCI will move on and those that can still make it work will stay.  Folks won't leave RCI just because you are unhappy, no matter how much you try "to get others to see how horrible RCI has been...."

A weight will be lifted from you as soon as you actually say "bye bye" to RCI and their ever-evolving secret trade "power" and move on to what works for you and leave the rest behind.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 18, 2009)

We should all recognize the tremendous favor that we TUGgers have done for RCI.  By maintaining this BBS and posting (nay, boasting about) our experiences using the exchange system, we've shown RCI where there are trading glitches in their system.

People here have spent hours working the exchange system, testing resorts, and identifying those situations where a modest week can score a much bigger exchange.  Remember the South Africa weeks?  Remember when any week of the year in a So Calif coastal resort could pull anything in the exchange system?  Remember when bulk space banks caused sudden drops in trade power (and people wound up in the Manhattan Club using one of the South African weeks even after those weeks had been weakened)?

RCI has read and responded.  

And why should we be surprised that RCI has been, and still is, fine-tuning their system? Who in their right mind would ever operate a business without fine tuning and adjusting their operating procedures over time???

***

You either decide if it works for you or it doesn't.  Maybe you provide some feedback, and they respond positively.  Maybe they don't.

But if you've tied your happiness to someone who happens to be zigging while you want them to zag, you either need to live with their zig or find someone else who is zagging.

****

In general, when one is upset about a situation one can identify options by first identifying the options that are based on other people changing their actions and attitudes.  Then you can develop another set of options based on changing one's own attitudes and actions.

Guess which set of options is easier to put in place?


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## sandkastle4966 (Nov 18, 2009)

Tombo - 

will written, thought out response on this issue.

I will second the "who moved my cheese" - an oldie, but a goodie.

I have a week that is still "primo", and I have on that moved down. The one that went down - it should have - I was lucky what I was able to pull off over the years.......


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2009)

Okay, so I am just kinda whiny.   And I will also admit to being a little ornery, and a lot difficult.  

But what is good, if someone is searching Google, just to find people who are also having problems with RCI, they will find TUG, possibly through this thread.


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## Laurie (Nov 19, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Laurie, why aren't you angrier that your trading power reduced like that?


For all the reasons stated: I've lived thru so many trade power adjustments already so they're not unexpected ... they're logical ... I don't feel entitled to those exchanges just because I've been able to get them in the past ... and it's not worth the emotional energy.

And because I have another beef with RCI which looms larger to me and more disruptive to my life: my 3rd and 4th European cancellation by RCI of confirmations already in place. 

However, they're not willing to replace them with truly similar accommodations - they *could* but won't. 

They *could* either by paying for rental accommodations in the same location ... or by giving me accommodations out of their rental inventory already available in their Extra Vacations, which I stated I'd accept.  We all know they skim our best deposits for their own rentals, and that they offer rented inventory from other sources (e.g. Hyatt hotels) as exchanges. So I'm angry when they won't do it in a case like mine. Instead they pay a "specialist" to track a case like mine, and tag my account so that no one else at RCI is even allowed to speak to me.

Not only that: all the good European exchanges for upcoming spring/summer of 2010, which weren't grabbed for exchange in the first 30 days or so, have long been removed by them for rental. I don't even believe they show all of them in the RCI rental website.

I've already invested hundreds of hours in figuring out back-to-back weeks and itineraries, and this is the third major European trip using RCI exchanges this has happened with. I've now got to go back to the drawing board, and spend another several hundred hours or more figuring out how to create a major trip worth the thousands of dollars in transportation costs just to get there. 

In this case, I do feel entitled to receive something beyond the dregs they are offering me.
So far, nothing they're offering is OK. 

I'll have to book flights soon because we have 2 other RCI confirmations in Europe for this trip, so I'll probably have to go out-of-pocket for private accommodations. This is what's *not* working for me, as it makes timeshare trading a true exercise in frustration.

Edited to add: Actually this is the one instance I do feel angry about the trade power reduction:

Although my "specialist" insists they returned full original trade power to my returned spacebanks as a result of these cancellations, I know they have not done that - specifically they cannot see Manhattan Club as they did in the past, they cannot see all the 2-BR's at DVC, etc. A subsequently-deposited week that *does* have the reduced trade power - the one seeing those 2-BR Swan Mt weeks - can even see a few (not most) 2-BR DVC's in some overlapping seeing-window which these returned weeks can't.  So it's clear to me that their returned trade power is *even lower *than post-disenhancement trade power. 

However, I can't search for my replacement weeks with the new deposit because it doesn't see back far enough.  So I can't even use their online system to fully explore what might be acceptable as replacements. It's too complicated to explain to the "specialist" how I know for sure their trade power's been reduced - I tried, and gave up.


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