# Beware: re-trading on Worldmark difficulties



## Marathoner

Ever since eplus has come out, I've been re-trading alot with each of my exchanges with II (with eplus purchased) since the next three after the initial exchange is free up to a year from the date of the original exchange.  On several of my deposits, I have utilized all 3 of the available eplus re-trades.  I suspect that I re-trade more than most people using the II system.  My Worldmark annual account is only 8000 credits but I've rented alot of credits over the past couple of years so I have many WM exchanges with II.

Worldmark re-trades are different than most other weeks exchanges because Worldmark is a point based system which adjusts the amount of credits which is required for each subsequent re-trade.  That means that if I initially traded into a 2 bedroom, II will take 10,000 credits from my WM account.  If I then re-trade into a studio, II gives back the 10,000 credits to my WM account and then takes 8,000 credits from my WM account.  Regardless of whether my eplus re-trades are for a bigger unit or a smaller unit or the same size unit, II gives back the credits for the unit I traded out of and then takes the credit for the new unit which I traded into.

A wrinkle with Worldmark is that the credit re-trade adjustments are done manually by a Worldmark exchange department that you cannot talk to and the manual adjustments can take a few days or weeks depending on how busy they are.  The re-trade adjustments are not atomic.  This means that II can take the credits for the new unit that I have traded into on a given day and then several days later they will put the credits back into my account for the unit that I have traded out of.  Or vice versa.

Furthermore, the credits are simply added or removed without any historical audit trail on the Worldmark website.  That means that you can review all your previous WM reservations that you have ever been on, but you cannot see a record of any II credits that have been taken or received into your WM account.  As a result, I now keep a spreadsheet with all my Worldmark exchanges/re-trades with II so that I can keep track of my credits and ensure that it reconciles with my available credit balance on the Worldmark website.

Recently, I did two re-trades (one into a studio and another into a 2BR) on the same day and several days later, I saw that I was missing 8000 credits (equivalent to a studio but this also happens to be the size of my annual account).  I've spoken to an II rep and to a Worldmark rep and they could not explain why I was missing the 8000 credits.  So, they are doing a further investigation and will update me in several days.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit the last several days and I think I now know what has happened.  I think I had 8000 WM credits expiring earlier this year which was used in an exchange with II last year.  When I recently did the re-trades, I believe they deposited my expired credits back into my account (which then evaporated since they had expired) and they then took fresh unexpired credits for the re-trade.  

When WM contacts me later this week, I am, of course, going to protest this because they should not have given back the expired credits and then taken new ones since that defeats the concept of a re-trade.  I now realize that I am going to have to track the expiration date of every credit currently being utilized in an II exchange so that this does not happen again.

I share this story so that anyone who is caught in a similar situation is aware of this potential issue.  If anyone else has experienced this, I'd really like to hear from them as well.


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## tschwa2

You are lucky (and hopefully the system will not be adjusted) because in the II Program guide using eplus trade with points if you stay the same or go down in points requirement, you are not refunded the points.  If your retrade would require additional points, the additional points are subtracted from your account.



> (d) For E-Plus retrades where points (inclusive of Club Interval Points and
> Preferred Points) were relinquished for the original Confirmation:
> (i) Where the number of points required for the retrade is equal to or
> less than the number of points required for the original Confirmation
> or, if applicable, previously issued retrade, no points will be returned
> to the Member’s points or Club Interval Points account or Preferred
> Points account.
> (ii) Where the number of points or Club Interval Points required for
> the retrade is greater than the amount relinquished for the original
> Confirmation or, if applicable, previously issued retrade, the Member
> will be required to relinquish the additional points needed. A retrade
> will not be confirmed until the availability of the required number of
> points is verified by the Home Resort


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## sjsharkie

tschwa2 said:


> You are lucky (and hopefully the system will not be adjusted) because in the II Program guide using eplus trade with points if you stay the same or go down in points requirement, you are not refunded the points.  If your retrade would require additional points, the additional points are subtracted from your account.


I think you misread the post (either that or I did).

The OP retraded through eplus and an additional 8000 credits were removed for a like trade.  This should not happen per the rules for a like trade.

I don't think he traded down and is expecting credits back. 

Ryan

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Marathoner

Actually, tschwa2 is correct.  I've always received credits back from II when I've re-traded into a smaller unit.  This has happened multiple times and I assume that this is the agreement that Worldmark has with II regardless of the specific bylaws that is being quoted.


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## pacman

I just want to confirm what the OP has stated, as I had exactly the same thing happen to me. Did a re-trade and suddenly missing credits from my WM account. What a pain to first talk to II - nope not their problem, then WM - nope not their problem. Had to get all 3 of us on a conference call to explain.  Very frustrating.  Anyways - those of you doing re-trades using a WM original trade - make sure you watch your credits closely!

pacman


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## tschwa2

You might want to see if you can get either II or WM to send you the rules and regulations as to how eplus retrades work with WM.  I know you have the practical experience but it is nice to be able to have the written rules to back it up as well.


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## sue1947

This isn't a problem when using Deposit First.  The credits are taken out for the original deposit and then future trades don't involve any credits.
Request First has had issues with credits being taken/returned on a timely schedule.  In the past, you could talk to the exchange dept and get things corrected.  Now, they have changed it so you have to speak to Owner Care who then talks to the exchange company; they have put up a wall to leap over and call it "customer service".   It has always been a good idea to track credits taken out for exchanges with either RCI or II due to the time lag.  That is more true now.

Sue


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## sjsharkie

Marathoner said:


> Actually, tschwa2 is correct.  I've always received credits back from II when I've re-traded into a smaller unit.  This has happened multiple times and I assume that this is the agreement that Worldmark has with II regardless of the specific bylaws that is being quoted.


Ah, OK.  Sorry about that, tschwa2.

I had assumed that once you deposit a unit and the 24 hours is up, that unit is gone in Worldmark and you wouldn't be entitled to credits back.

Good to know.  Let us know how it turns out.

-ryan


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## Great3

Yes, please keep us updated on how WorldMark handled this.

I have expired credits in an II reservation currently, and looking to upgrade if/when it becomes available via re-trading using eplus.

So thanks for the warning, so we all know what to look out for.

Thanks,
Great3


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## PassionForTravel

This is great information I never would have guessed it worked that way as Sue said, we used to be able to talk with the exchange department. What a pain, good to know that WYN is always enhancing our ownership. This may prevent me from taking EPlus on a request first using WM credits in the future since the VO personnel can't even tell us what the expiration date of credits/HK tokens is on a RCI/II exchange. Ran into that last week.

If they are going to take away our ability to talk to the exchange department then the reservation system on WM should show us all the info we need on exchanges.

Ian


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## VacationForever

sue1947 said:


> This isn't a problem when using Deposit First.  The credits are taken out for the original deposit and then future trades don't involve any credits.
> Request First has had issues with credits being taken/returned on a timely schedule.  In the past, you could talk to the exchange dept and get things corrected.  Now, they have changed it so you have to speak to Owner Care who then talks to the exchange company; they have put up a wall to leap over and call it "customer service".   It has always been a good idea to track credits taken out for exchanges with either RCI or II due to the time lag.  That is more true now.
> 
> Sue



When you use Deposit First, does it mean that you won't be able to upsize or downsize in re-trades?


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## sue1947

sptung said:


> When you use Deposit First, does it mean that you won't be able to upsize or downsize in re-trades?



Nope.  If you can see it, you can book it.  With a deposit first, you get a specific week and you search with that week and not the WM float.  It's a gamble since you have no control over which resort/week you get and Wyn has been handing out more dogs so the gamble is higher now.  However, since you can't do an OGS with eplus, it's essentially the same except for trading power.  I am checking into a 2 BR unit tomorrow that I got with a studio deposit first.  

Sue


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## Great3

Just Curious, any updates / results / outcome with Worldmark that you can share on this issue?

Great3


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## Marathoner

So Worldmark responded by saying that I was due an extra 12,000 credits and added them to my account. They said they would send me my entire II trade history with Worldmark but I have yet to receive it.  I've also asked for an explanation as to how they deduced that I was due 12,000 credits (since that does not reconcile with my spreadsheet) but I've not received a reply. 

I don't know if my spreadsheet history tracker was in error or not but since I got my credits back, I am not stressing too much at this point.  I do wonder whether this problem will re-occur since I intend to re-trade these same weeks yet again if the villas I am seeking show up.

In a separate email exchange, the WM rep said that they are upgrading their WM website in a year and that she hopes that the ability to see II trade history would make it into their release.  I think she was just making a comment and it was not an official statement of a new feature to come.


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## Great3

Marathoner said:


> So Worldmark responded by saying that I was due an extra 12,000 credits and added them to my account. They said they would send me my entire II trade history with Worldmark but I have yet to receive it.  I've also asked for an explanation as to how they deduced that I was due 12,000 credits (since that does not reconcile with my spreadsheet) but I've not received a reply.
> 
> I don't know if my spreadsheet history tracker was in error or not but since I got my credits back, I am not stressing too much at this point.  I do wonder whether this problem will re-occur since I intend to re-trade these same weeks yet again if the villas I am seeking show up.
> 
> In a separate email exchange, the WM rep said that they are upgrading their WM website in a year and that she hopes that the ability to see II trade history would make it into their release.  I think she was just making a comment and it was not an official statement of a new feature to come.



Well, just glad the WorldMark customer service did the right thing, and at least gave you the credits back that disappeared when expired, especially since you had another II reservation that it should have gone into in the eplus re-trade.  Thanks for updating us, and I will be sure to watch out for the credits when I do the eplus re-trade.  But at least I feel better if the same thing happens, they will resolve it.

Great3


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## JulieAnne

I just learned an unpleasant "lesson" with etrades too... 

I booked a 1 bdrm at the Grand Chateau in Vegas for a Sat to Sat ( attending a conference there that week). I thought it would be cool to get a 2 bdrm if possible, so I bought the etrade option. My husband preferred a Sunday check in so a couple weeks later I did my first etrade into the Sunday check in unit.

I made sure all the "Confirm" buttons were hit but UNFORTUNATELY did not do a screen shot.

I did walk in and tell my husband that I had used up one trade and that we now had a Sunday check in.

We booked our rental car and airfare based on the Sunday check in.

I called II today to get the invoice for the trade fees and they said they have no record of my exchanging the first res for the second. We have a standing Saturday check in and 3 etrades left. 

I'm really only out one night's stay (we will stay in Vegas until Sunday) and the wasted etrade - but I am so annoyed that I didn't do a screen print!!!


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## Marathoner

Marathoner said:


> So Worldmark responded by saying that I was due an extra 12,000 credits and added them to my account. I've also asked for an explanation as to how they deduced that I was due 12,000 credits (since that does not reconcile with my spreadsheet) but I've not received a reply.
> 
> I don't know if my spreadsheet history tracker was in error or not but since I got my credits back, I am not stressing too much at this point.



They've sent me a list of the entire transaction history of my account, including my II re-trades.  The reason that there is a difference between my spreadsheet and the number of credits in my account is because they took 2,000 fewer credits than they should have for an II re-trade.  Do you think I should call them and suggest that they take the additional credits from my account or should I leave this alone?  I'd like to get people's opinion on this.  Personally, I want to do the honest thing and let them know but I don't want to use more of my time to fix their error either.


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## JennM

*Having the same issue with losing expired points*

I am on the phone with Worldmark now trying to resolve the same issue. There's been no definite reso,union yet, but my initial feeling is they're not going to reinstate my points. To the original poster, when they reinstated your points, did they have a new expiration date? How was that handled?


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## JennM

*No dice*

So, I just got off the phone with Worldmark and they will not reinstate the credits. She said she talked to management and they expired in May of 2014 and can only survive 13 months beyond that. I retraded them 3 times with our final travel date being Sept. So... She said, maybe I could call II to have their people talk to Worldmark.  Not being the most educated on all this stuff, does anyone have any advice for me? Who to call? This is 4,000 credits, I've lost.  If I'm out, then I'm out but I thought once I did the initial trade back in Feb (with the plus feature) those credits would be good for an additional two years with II.


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## Marathoner

I'm sorry to hear about your experience.  I would suggest that you call again until you find a sympathetic/knowledgeable agent and let them know that you should not be penalized for re-trading with expired points when it was already banked at II.

For my personal situation, even though they sent me the audit details, it did not include the credit expiration dates.  So, I am more inclined to think it was a WM error rather than expired credits upon reflection.

For your situation, how do you know that the credits that was used in the II exchange was expired to a specific date?  Were you keeping a spreadsheet at the time of exchange?  I also suggest you email WM about your "credit error" and put the burden on them because this is an unfair outcome for a WM owner.


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## PassionForTravel

I've been thinking about this issue since it was first reported. To me it seems like an II issue rather than a WM issue. II shouldn't been sending the credits back to WM and then re-pulling them on an ePlus re-trade. It should be handled internally within II. A re-trade is just that, it's a swap, it's not a cancellation and then a new exchange which is the way II are handling it. It seems like WM is handling it correctly, just like would happen if I cancelled a reservation within the WM system that had expired credits on it. When I make an ePlus re-trade with my Marriott week it doesn't go back to Marriott. Once the exchange is made it should stay in II unless the trade is cancelled.

Ian


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## JennM

Thank you both for your comments. I know the credits are expired because the owner care agent told me the credits tied up in that re-trade expired on 5/14. The specifics of this is I did a trade (which ended up occuring within the flex change period) back in Feb so they deducted 4,000 points. I purchased the Eplus feature. As it was within the 59 days, I was only allowed to search within 59 day period so I knew no additional or less credits would be used for a retrade. I thought those credits were safe.

I did have to retrade up to the 3rd time. We traveled to Hawaii Sept 11th. I was not watching my WM account throughout this. When I looked at it the other night, the credits were gone. 

Owner care's arguement (and I really don't think she understood the situation) were the credits expired in June, 13 months from the 5/14 expiration date. I traveled in Sept. So, no matter what, that's the final answer.

My issue is I feel the credits never should've been back in the WM acct to be pulled out again. The credits that were ultimately used for the reservation originating in Feb were ones that don't expire until May of next year. To that end, I agree with Ian. I do feel that this is a II issue, although WM is the only ones with the power to restore the credits. The link above regarding Eplus rules, states no credits will be refunded or taken from my account and that's what happened albeit none additional of over the 4,000. Just very frustrating.

Adding to that, I'm not super educated on this, or the best at verbally articulating in timeshare terms so I find it a little intimadating to go head to head with these professionals. Email might be the best way to go. The person I talked to yesterday, said she went to management and they said no way on restoring the credits and recited the 13 month rule. I asked her if there was somewhere else for me to go with this, and she said no, not with WM. Maybe call II, but I could tell she was just throwing me a bone so to speak.


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## oceanvps

is that happening to everyone? the taking the points again on eplus retrade when you use worldmark?
the reason i ask is that i have an exchange right now that i'm trying to eplus up to a 2 bedroom so will they try and take another 4K points out of my account (I'm in flex).? if i grab the upgrade if it shows up?


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## LLW

oceanvps said:


> is that happening to everyone? the taking the points again on eplus retrade when you use worldmark?
> the reason i ask is that i have an exchange right now that i'm trying to eplus up to a 2 bedroom so will they try and take another 4K points out of my account (I'm in flex).? if i grab the upgrade if it shows up?



According to the other posts they would refund the points originally taken and deduct new points for the upgrade. An interesting question would be if the original trade is not in Flex but the upgrade is, would they take 4K or 10K out for the upgrade? It might be worth a call to Owner Care. Please share your finding.


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## oceanvps

if i'm lucky enough to eplus the studio @ ko olina to a 1 or 2 bedroom then i'll let you know what happens with the worldmark points.


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## oceanvps

Yay, cutting it kind of close but YAY! my eplus studio to 2 bedroom just happened with a Nov 8 check-in so I'll be watching my worldmark account closely to see if they take the points twice.  I am so relieved !




edit 11/06/15 yup they took the points for 2nd retrade so now i guess i'm phoning them all ugh
actually i've decided not to do this until the week in question has passed in case they start messing around with it and cancel it - we go in 3 days.
anybody have the most efficient route to get his rectified? phone who first?


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## Marathoner

oceanvps said:


> edit 11/06/15 yup they took the points for 2nd retrade so now i guess i'm phoning them all ugh
> actually i've decided not to do this until the week in question has passed in case they start messing around with it and cancel it - we go in 3 days.
> anybody have the most efficient route to get his rectified? phone who first?



Congrats to the upgrade to a 2BR - sounds like a great exchange!

The credits that they return for the original trade usually happens up to 2 weeks after they have deducted for the new re-trade.  So, you will likely get the credits returned simply by waiting.  If they never return the credits for the original trade, you have to contact Worldmark and let them know what has happened and they'll return the credits a few days later.  You can also email them to explain the problem; it doesn't have to be by phone.


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## JudyS

Hmmmm... I haven't used my Worldmark account in Interval yet, but I am considering it.

However, because of my health I often have to reschedule trips. The E-plus retrade option in II is really valuable to me. If Worldmark makes it very hard to use retrade, maybe I *won't* use my Worldmark in II.

On the other hand, it seems like the worst problems occur with II trades using points that expire soon. So, if all the points in my Worldmark account have at least a year before expiration at the time I do my initial II trade, I should probably be OK.  Any thoughts on this?


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## Marathoner

JudyS said:


> Hmmmm... I haven't used my Worldmark account in Interval yet, but I am considering it.
> 
> However, because of my health I often have to reschedule trips. The E-plus retrade option in II is really valuable to me. If Worldmark makes it very hard to use retrade, maybe I *won't* use my Worldmark in II.
> 
> On the other hand, it seems like the worst problems occur with II trades using points that expire soon. So, if all the points in my Worldmark account have at least a year before expiration at the time I do my initial II trade, I should probably be OK.  Any thoughts on this?



Eplus is great.  I buy it for every new deposit and the amount of flexibility at a low cost is fantastic.  So, I highly recommend it.  

Eplus is good for one year out from the date of your first trade.  As a result, if the date of the week that you've exchanged into in II is 6 months from today, then your eplus is good until 18 months from today.  Lets say that the expiration date of your WM credits is 13 months from today.  This means that any eplus exchanges that you do for the next 13 months will be fine.  But any eplus exchanges that you do between months 13 and 18 could result in the loss of your credits due to it being past their expiration date.  Of course, the II deposit week also goes through the overnight credit shuffle process.  So, if you take a normal WM vacation before the II week, then the WM vacation will take your most recent credits and move it out of the II deposit if that is where the credits with the earliest expiration are sitting.

You can avoid all these issues if you take the II deposit first approach with your WM credits.  The above only applies if you do a II confirm first deposit of your WM credits.  If you use a deposit first approach, I suggest depositing 10,000 credits, which is a 2 bedroom red season, so that you can get the most trading power.  

Using WM credits in II is quite powerful so I recommend it but there are some of these nuances which take time to learn.


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## JudyS

Thank you for the information, Marathoner.

I know Worldmark is a great II trader, but I'm not sure I want to commit my Worldmark credits to a Deposit First with II. This is especially true because health/financial issues are currently limiting my travel. If I deposit my Worldmark credits, I give up the option of renting them out to another owner if I can't use them for travel. I'll have to give this some thought.


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## sun starved Gayle

*Confused*

I am a bit confused.

If I do an exchange that I originally booked using a Worldmark studio for a studio in II, and then do an Eplus exchange 45 days out or less for a larger unit, will I still get charged more points for the upgrade ? 

I was under the impression that anything 45 days out was a fixed number of points.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.


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## PassionForTravel

I think that was the question that LLW asked in message #20. I don't think anyone knows yet, you might end up getting a refund of points if the original trade was done more than 45 days out. If both were in Flex then it should be a wash.

Re-reading your question it sounds like you did a deposit first "Worldmark studio for a studio in II" if that's the case then this doesn't affect you at all. It's only for request first that are affected.

Ian

Ian


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## oceanvps

i'm on hold for the worldmark specialist in ii.
i'll let you know if they give me back 4000 points plus hskp (which was done at the time of the retrade nov) or if they give me back the points plus hskp they took when i first initiated the exchange (aug)

it sounds like - the post above - they would normally do this automatically? i think the problem is if you don't have enough worldmark points for them to be taking the second or third time (until they fix it) then you have an issue. it's definitely trickier.  previously i've used my marriott week in the retrade scenario so i didn't know that there's this added glitch with doing wm retrade until i saw this thread - was good that i knew about it ahead of time though because i printed out my account detail before and after so i had proof ... if i needed it

ugh. i think they hung up on me...why can't people operate their phone systems????!!!!!

guess i'll try them when we get back....this is too aggravating while on vacation


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## sun starved Gayle

Did they end up refunding your points ?


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## oceanvps

well they didn't do it automatically (which i was hoping) so i guess i'm going to have to call them annoying


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## Marathoner

oceanvps said:


> well they didn't do it automatically (which i was hoping) so i guess i'm going to have to call them annoying



I also re-traded into a flexchange week.  They deducted the 4000 credits a week ago but I haven't yet got my 10,000 credits back for the original exchange.  I called owner services and explained the issue to them today.  They called me back after speaking to their exchange department and they asked for 2 more weeks to process this given their backlog.

It is annoying that they are so quick to take credits out but so slow to return the credits that are due to us.  I could see it being problematic if I needed to book something with the 10,000 credits quickly.


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## oceanvps

Resolved
So I called again - think round trip was about 1/2 hour this time
called customer service - she went back and forth for a bit
she then transferred me to a supervisor 

supervisor had the worldmark person (think this was an interval wm person although not regular wm specialist) refund me the points - so just checked my points and they gave me back 8000 points and a hskp (which was the first exchange deduction) all in all i'm glad it was resolved however i wish their system wouldn't do the double dip in the first place.  retrade with my marriott week is so much simpler.

to summarize
original exchange in august deducted 8K plus hskp
eplus exchange within week prior to check-in november deducted further 4k plus hskp
checked in nov 8

points and hskp refunded dec 22 (had to call in dec 21)


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## Marathoner

I also got my original credits back for my re-trade today after speaking with them.  So, bottom line is that if you do an re-trade within the flexchange period using a confirm-first WM week, you only have to pay the 4000 credits and you will get your 10,000 credits back for the original 2BR week which you traded out of.

But the process to get credits back after any type of re-trade often requires patience and followup with WM because it is a manual process for them and it is not automated.

But I would note that I really do value only paying 4000 credits in II flexchange for a high-end 2BR at a great resort.  It was an awesome value and my WM ownership along with II continues to impress me.


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## oceanvps

i really like ii and eplus.
eplus - we had a nov 8 check in for ko olina (which started as a studio and became a 2 bed) using wm
eplus - we had a nov 15 check in for ko olina (which also started as a studio and became a 2 bed) using a marriott studio

i can't complain too much just requires, patience and extra points you don't mind letting them have temporarily while they straighten it out


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## taterhed

Does anybody know if the new 'Platinum' RCI benefit (automatic upgrade) has any bearing on WM trades in RCI?  Oceanvps; I'm assuming you did manual re-trades with eplus in II to upgrade?    I'm dying to try my 'spankin new WM points in II trades against Hawaii.  That'll be next year though....still eplus'ing my Marriott studio this year.  Painful wait.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## oceanvps

Yes, I did manual - the wm upgrade was PAINFUL without marriott priority.  with Marriott priority it would of been a snap   I did check every five minutes for months in my waking hours.

I love love love marriott priority and the exchange fee of 129.

Although if you can get a 2 bed marriott for the cost of wm 4K points 1 hskp and an exchange fee/eplus fee is still a smoking deal as well 

Joanne


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