# Thinking about a purchase



## Bill4728 (Aug 8, 2013)

We visited the WPORV this past Jan and my DW loved it. She really liked our daily walk to the St Regis ( about 2 miles) and our 3 hours on their beach

So even though I have 6 weeks of TS I'm thinking about getting us a Starwood TS that would get us there EOY.  So I'm thinking about a 81K unit in either AZ or Orlando ( yes I know which ones to buy)  The ads on the TUG marketplace seem to say the price will be around $3K with MFs about $1200.

I can't see us using either of these TS for use only for SO into Hawaii or maybe Avon.  We never travel in the summer and are completely flexible. Will be be able to use our SO to get a 1 bd during those 8 months ( non summer months).

Does this sound like a good plan or should we just rent from a Tugger or just continue to troll for an exchange ( we have twice traded our Whistler 1 bd for a 2 bd at WPORV & a 2 bd at WKORV) 


TIA

PS sorry we missed you *Westin 5** we were at WPORV the same time as you last Jan but didn't note that you were there till after we left.


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## Ken555 (Aug 8, 2013)

Since your travel is not limited to certain dates and is flexible, why not simply get a less expensive Starwood unit and get to WPORV via II? No need for StarOptions unless there is a specific reason to do so. Over the last five years or so getting to WPORV via II has been extremely easy using another Starwood week via II.

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## PamMo (Aug 8, 2013)

Bill, just to make sure you understand, 81K StarOptions is not enough to get a 2BR at WPORV or WKORV in SVN. A 1BR (1-52) takes 81K. If you want a 2BR in Hawaii using StarOptions, you will need 148,100 StarOptions. Using Interval, trading Starwood-to-Starwood, can get you a bigger unit - especially if you watch the sightings board. You could buy and deposit SVV or WKV in II, or try to find an inexpensive (or free) SDO eoy unit to use as a trader to test the waters. Or...if your Whistler unit works, stick with using that. You have the luxury of flexible travel dates going for you.


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## SMHarman (Aug 9, 2013)

Bill, I'm surprised DeniseM has not put her 2c in here.
With your flexible schedule you are likely better to buy a near free starwood trader unit and use II to get to WPORV.  A 2Br LO would get you 2 weeks at WPORV, one for each week of the exchange.  
The usual recommended starwood trader is SDO due to the cheap cost to aquire a Gold Plus unit and reasonable (on the low end for Starwood) MF.  Also if you are not planning on using it, there is decent rental demand for the units in March for Spring Training.
Alternately, you could consider one of the Avon TS (though if you were getting a winter unit that could be more expensive up front - the MF there are also not bad) and then you have the 12m booking window for Avon visits and then use it for II exchanges to WPORV.
The II exchange of a 2Br LO would possibly get 2 x 2 Br for a week in WPORV if there is instant exchange.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree with the prior posts -- a one bedroom SDO will get you a one bedroom WPORV non-summer week (and will get you a two bedroom non-summer WPORV week on an instant exchange).

A one bedroom SBP unit will do the same.

Whether this will continue as the economy improves is anyone's guess, but it is the current situation.


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## Bill4728 (Aug 9, 2013)

Right now we have been able to get into both WPORV & WKORV with our Whistler 1 bd so using II has already worked for us. So I doubt if we'll buy a non-mandatory * wood TS 

We need a 1 bd most of the time  so 81K SO seems like the right amount  BUT if we need a 2 bd,  can we save up two years worth of points to get into a 2 bd? If not, we may just trade for a studio or 1 bd ( if we can't get a 2 bd trade) and then use our SO to get a second 1 bd unit. BUT most of the time when we travel a 1 bd is great.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Starwood recently started permitting the carryover of unused StarOptions for a year, so yes, if you have an 81K unit, you can use it to reserve a 148K unit every other year.

But if that hypothetical Kierland gold plus 2 bedroom (81K SO's) comes with MF's of $1,300/yr including SVN fees, why would you want to spend $2,600 for two years of MF's (plus Starwood's $99 carryover charge) in order to acquire the SO's to reserve a two bedroom WPORV unit that you can rent for about the same money or less?


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## LisaRex (Aug 9, 2013)

Unless you need to go during peak weeks (President's Day, July 4th weekend), I'd exchange into WPORV.  If you're getting in with a TS you already own, why would you even consider getting another one?

Use your head, man!


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## DeniseM (Aug 9, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^^
What they said!  
Buy a cheap II trader - no need for Staroptions.


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## lizap (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll present another view.  Since you have much flexibility/can travel at off peak times and are interested in Col. as well, buying at a mandatory property like WKV will give you Staroptions which will allow you to stay a lot of weeks during off peak in Col.  I think both are good options, especially if the upfront cost is not a huge issue for you .


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## jarta (Aug 9, 2013)

lizap said:


> I'll present another view.  Since you have much flexibility/can travel at off peak times and are interested in Col. as well, buying at a mandatory property like WKV will give you Staroptions which will allow you to stay a lot of weeks during off peak in Col.  I think both are good options, especially if the upfront cost is not a huge issue for you .



Agree, but only if the upfront cost is not a huge issue.

Bill seems to be fairly flexible.  And wants the flexibility StarOptions provide.  One of the advantages of StarOptions over II trading is that, at 8 months from check-in, WPORV should have availability for almost all weeks.  There is more liklihood (but no guarantee) that it will be easier to occasionally rent primo weeks at WPORV using StarOptions.  That won't occur using II.

IMO, one of the disadvantages of staying at WPORV (or WKORV/N) for 7 nights is that it is hard day of traveling and hard to justify the cost of the airfare.  II only provides 7 nights in blocks of 7  Perhaps it is possible to find 2 weeks providing 14 consecutive days at WPORV.  I am not all that familiar with II availability.  But it seems 2 weeks in a row is a harder thing to find than 1.  Using StarOptions, a reservation can be made for more (but not less) than 7 nights at 8 months from check-in.

Buying a 2-br EOY Platinum week would allow for 12 straight nights in a 800+ sq. ft. premium 1-br at WPORV every other year with a few left over for banking.  Lately, mandatory WKV weeks have been increasing in value - even with no ROFR that Starwood can exercise.  Perhaps we have hit a bottom for mandatory weeks.

The 148,100 StarOptions that a 2-br Platinum WKV week could also provide 3 weeks of 7 nights in premium 1-br shoulder season reservations (44K SO) at many fine Starwood resorts (WKV, HRA, Riverfront in Avon, WDW and WMH in Palm Springs or Lagunamar in Cancun) every 2 years with 16,100 leftover SO available to further extend stays or bank for future use.

It depends on Bill's financial position and how he intends to use any Starwood week he might buy.

However, if Bill only want to stay in premium 1-brs at far-away Starwood places for 7 nights and is OK with spending the travel time and paying for the airfare, buying a voluntary II trader at SDO makes very good sense.   Salty


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 10, 2013)

jarta said:


> Agree, but only if the upfront cost is not a huge issue.



Whether the high upfront costs are an issue or not, why would you want to pay more for something you can get for a LOT less ? That doesn't make sense to me. If I can pay less than $1000 for an annual SDO and get 2 x 2 br every year at WPORV for less than $1400, why would I want to pay $8-9K for an EOY WKV.



jarta said:


> Bill seems to be fairly flexible.  And wants the flexibility StarOptions provide.  One of the advantages of StarOptions over II trading is that, at 8 months from check-in, WPORV should have availability for almost all weeks.  There is more liklihood (but no guarantee) that it will be easier to occasionally rent primo weeks at WPORV using StarOptions.  That won't occur using II.
> 
> IMO, one of the disadvantages of staying at WPORV (or WKORV/N) for 7 nights is that it is hard day of traveling and hard to justify the cost of the airfare.  II only provides 7 nights in blocks of 7  Perhaps it is possible to find 2 weeks providing 14 consecutive days at WPORV.  I am not all that familiar with II availability.  But it seems 2 weeks in a row is a harder thing to find than 1.  Using StarOptions, a reservation can be made for more (but not less) than 7 nights at 8 months from check-in.
> 
> Buying a 2-br EOY Platinum week would allow for 12 straight nights in a 800+ sq. ft. premium 1-br at WPORV every other year with a few left over for banking.  Lately, mandatory WKV weeks have been increasing in value - even with no ROFR that Starwood can exercise.  Perhaps we have hit a bottom for mandatory weeks.



WPORV an easy trade into in II. With a 2 br SDO, its not that hard to get 2 consecutive weeks for 14 days in a 2 Br WPORV. Looking at some of the past bulk deposits, Jan-Mar and Sept-Dec were deposited 6-18 months prior to the date of travel. 




jarta said:


> However, if Bill only want to stay in premium 1-brs at far-away Starwood places for 7 nights and is OK with spending the travel time and paying for the airfare, buying a voluntary II trader at SDO makes very good sense.   Salty



I would suggest to Bill, get a 2br annual SDO for $1000, save your money from buying WKV as it is definitely not needed for your flexibility. You will get a lot more than just a premium 1 br trading on II, just look at your prior trades and that was not even with a Starwood trader. If you want to stay for only 12/14 days, then so be it, you got in cheap enough that who really cares if you leave a couple days early ? It is overkill to buy WKV for this reason when it is an easy trade in II and based on the past, way further ahead than what you can book with SO.


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## LisaRex (Aug 10, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Whether the high upfront costs are an issue or not, why would you want to pay more for something you can get for a LOT less ?



That's why I suggested he continue to use his current TS as an exchanger.  He can travel in shoulder season, only needs a 1 bdrm, and he's already successfully exchanged into WPORV with his existing inventory, which is presumably paid off and has relatively inexpensive MFs. 

If he's willing to travel in shoulder season, I should think he'd be able to get into the vast majority of Starwood resorts using II.  The only one that may pose difficulty is WSJ.


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## jarta (Aug 10, 2013)

^^^   Quad,   ...   Bill is not a newbie.  He owns 6 timeshares right now.  He is a TUG Moderator and a lifetime TUG member who has been posting since 2005.  He has 8,000 posts.  Being a Moderator on TUG he reads posts.  Being experienced in timesharing, Bill should have a pretty good idea after all these years on how he wants to travel and what type of system might suit his needs.  You arrived here in 2012.

I assume Bill is competent.  You assume there is something wrong with his thinking.  My post begins - "only if the upfront cost is not a huge issue" and ends with "buying SDO makes very good sense."  Your tenor is "why would you want to pay more for something you can get for a LOT less."

The short answer is that Bill sees value in being fairly secure in getting exactly what he wants at 8 months from arrival.  He has figured the cost of the EOY that gives him 81K SO and is willing to pay it.  See the 1st post.

My alternative just points out a reason to get something with more SO to make the trips to WPORV longer so that Bill can adjust to the travel time getting to HI and can reduce the cost per day of getting to HI.  (I didn't talk about the time change.  The first few mornings in HI, I find myself up and wide awake at 3:30 am.  Many of the rooms I can see out my window also have lights on then.  At night, I find myself going to bed much earlier than normal.)  Even with 81K StarOptions, Bill might find the ability to stay at other Starwood resorts for more than a week in a lesser season a welcome advantage.

II limits you to 7 nights and, if you want to stay more than 7 nights, you must find 2 weeks that match up exactly for 14 nights.  Maybe 7 nights in HI is just fine for you.  I like staying longer than 7 nights.  It is possible Bill would, too.  (I'm staying at WPORV for 10 nights next January using StarOptions.  The reservation was made in the middle of July.)

I (like you) am entitled to post my opinion about staying more than 7 nights in HI or elsewhere.  Bill's entitled read all the posts and decide.  In the end, it's Bill's money.  He seems like a grown-up.  If Bill decides to buy SDO and use II rather than SO, it's certainly OK with me.   Salty


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## Bill4728 (Aug 10, 2013)

Thank You all for your imput about my idea.  

DW & I talked and decided that we have enough TS right now.  Since we are so flexible,  we can trade in with our good traders  and also can go to the Marriott TS on those islands with our Marriott TS. 

So for now we're good.

Thanks again


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## lizap (Aug 10, 2013)

Please refer to the Staroptions chart.  Given that the OP wants to visit Col some and is flexible, he can stay for more than 2 weeks in May.  The Staroptions route makes alot of sense when you can travel in off peak and shoulder times.



Quadmaniac said:


> Whether the high upfront costs are an issue or not, why would you want to pay more for something you can get for a LOT less ? That doesn't make sense to me. If I can pay less than $1000 for an annual SDO and get 2 x 2 br every year at WPORV for less than $1400, why would I want to pay $8-9K for an EOY WKV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (Aug 10, 2013)

It sounds like Bill has decided not to buy, but the strategy for Colorado vs the strategy for Hawaii is very different, and he'd have to decide which is the most important to him, and which he would use most often.


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## lizap (Aug 10, 2013)

This comment is right on target.   I agree that the strategy for Hawaii and Col is different.



DeniseM said:


> It sounds like Bill has decided not to buy, but the strategy for Colorado vs the strategy for Hawaii is very different, and he'd have to decide which is the most important to him, and which he would use most often.


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## Ken555 (Aug 10, 2013)

To summarize, there are two apparent schools of thought on how to use Starwood timeshares:

1. Buy mandatory (or direct) to enable use of StarOptions. 

2. Buy voluntary in order to obtain preferred ability to reserve SVN properties in II.

There is typically a significant cost premium to obtaining a unit with StarOptions.

All I can say is that I'm glad I have both. There are times I want to use StarOptions for the longer stays, reserve creative itineraries throughout the year at multiple properties, and have the (new) flexibility of banking StarOptions. And, I enjoy stretching my budget by reserving 2-bed units with a 1-bed via II which directly allows me to invite others to join me and more (xyz), etc.


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## margolism (Aug 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> To summarize, there are two apparent schools of thought on how to use Starwood timeshares:
> 
> 1. Buy mandatory (or direct) to enable use of StarOptions.
> 
> ...



I would add "3.  Buy where you want to primarily go, ideally as a resale."


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## DeniseM (Aug 10, 2013)

margolism said:


> I would add "3.  Buy where you want to primarily go, ideally as a resale."



That is not always the best option - for instance, it is really expensive to own in Hawaii, so if you are flexible, it's a much better value to trade in through II - especially for WPORV which has no deeded views, a high maintenance fee, and is an easy trade through II.  

There really is no ONE strategy that is clearly the best for all resorts and all owners.

Now someone is going to come along and quote my article where I wrote - "Buy where you want to go."  

And that is still good advice for green newbies - but for you astute owner/traders, you should consider all your options: 
1.  Buying where you want to go
2.  Buying a Staroption trader
3.  Buying a II trader


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 10, 2013)

jarta said:


> ^^^   Quad,   ...   Bill is not a newbie.  He owns 6 timeshares right now.  He is a TUG Moderator and a lifetime TUG member who has been posting since 2005.  He has 8,000 posts.  Being a Moderator on TUG he reads posts.  Being experienced in timesharing, Bill should have a pretty good idea after all these years on how he wants to travel and what type of system might suit his needs.  You arrived here in 2012.



Where in my post did I say he is a newbie ? Just because he owns 6 or 600 does not mean that he is aware of every possible timeshare system out there and he was inquiring about Starwood. I've never said when he wants to travel, he stated he travels in off season and not in the summer. If he knew what might suit his needs, why would he have to ask ? 

So just because I arrived in 2012, my opinion is worth any less ? What high horse did you fall off of ? 



jarta said:


> I assume Bill is competent.  You assume there is something wrong with his thinking.  My post begins - "only if the upfront cost is not a huge issue" and ends with "buying SDO makes very good sense."  Your tenor is "why would you want to pay more for something you can get for a LOT less."
> 
> The short answer is that *Bill sees value in being fairly secure in getting exactly what he wants at 8 months from arrival*.  He has figured the cost of the EOY that gives him 81K SO and is willing to pay it.  See the 1st post.



Please show me where I have stated anything about Bill being incompetent ? I see no such statement. My reply was directed at your comment that he should buy it WKV as it gives him what he wants 8 months from arrival when many of the advanced deposits were as much as 18 months in advance. 

Also note, Bill did not say he wanted / needed to book 8 months in advance. Actually stopping to READ what someone posted is important in UNDERSTANDING what they posted. Your understanding and what he posted is completely different, so maybe you should go re-read his first post



Bill4728 said:


> We never travel in the summer and are *completely flexible*. Will be be able to use our SO to get a 1 bd *during those 8 months ( non summer months)*.



According to you, it is better to pay more and be able to book out a shorter amount of in advance than trading just because you can afford it. Millionaires don't get to be and stay millionaires by buying it because they can afford it. 



Bill4728 said:


> Does this sound like a good plan or should we just rent from a Tugger or just continue to troll for an exchange



To me this implies asking for an opinion from others who have done what he is seeking to do. As I've said previously, you don't ask a mechanic what's the best way to bake a cake when there is a baker who has bakes that exact cake over and over. Does it mean that mechanic does not know how to bake ? No, but the baker can tell what worked for him/her, what has not, what problems they saw, what tips they may have and assist them in baking that cake better, hopefully avoiding some of the problems. 

As you have said, you do not trade SDO in II, so basically you're speaking about something you have no experience about. I'm not saying I have all the experience in the world, but I am sharing what "limited amount" I know since 2012 which seems to be more than what you know about something you've never done. 





jarta said:


> My alternative just points out a reason to get something with more SO to make the trips to WPORV longer so that Bill can adjust to the travel time getting to HI and can reduce the cost per day of getting to HI.  (I didn't talk about the time change.  The first few mornings in HI, I find myself up and wide awake at 3:30 am.  Many of the rooms I can see out my window also have lights on then.  At night, I find myself going to bed much earlier than normal.)  Even with 81K StarOptions, Bill might find the ability to stay at other Starwood resorts for more than a week in a lesser season a welcome advantage.
> 
> II limits you to 7 nights and, if you want to stay more than 7 nights, you must find 2 weeks that match up exactly for 14 nights.  Maybe 7 nights in HI is just fine for you.  I like staying longer than 7 nights.  It is possible Bill would, too.  (I'm staying at WPORV for 10 nights next January using StarOptions.  The reservation was made in the middle of July.)



But that is the issue, it isn't cheaper by your method. You haven't worked out the dollars and cents to see that it is cheaper taking 14 days with SDO / II and staying your 10 or 12 days if that is what you want. Please, work out the dollars and cents exactly and then reply.

Maybe you can take some time out to go to the sightings area and type WPORV to see the previous dates of the bulk deposits to see what dates were available and you will see the number of continuous weeks that were available. I looked at the previous 3 years of bulk deposits and it looked like getting two weeks in January was not that difficult. Proof is in the pudding. 

Post by rickandcindy23 July 31, 2012, 05:39 AM advised of Jan-Mar and Sept-Dec 13 availability with most of January available continuously till early Mar. 6-18 months in advance

Post by ada903 March 14, 2012, 05:13 AM advised of Jan-Feb, Apr-May 13 availability with most of January available continuously till early Feb. 9-14 months in advance

Post by larue November 11, 2011, 05:45 AM  advised of Mar, Sep-Oct 12  availability. 4-11 months in advance 

Post by jerseygirl November 18, 2010, 03:33 AM  advised of Sep-Oct 11 availability. 10-11 months in advance



jarta said:


> I (like you) am entitled to post my opinion about staying more than 7 nights in HI or elsewhere.  Bill's entitled read all the posts and decide.  In the end, it's Bill's money.  He seems like a grown-up.  If Bill decides to buy SDO and use II rather than SO, it's certainly OK with me.   Salty



Trust me, I am never worried about you being shy about posting your opinion. Again, I do not see where I have said YOU ARE WRONG for staying more than 7 days. Many times I stay more than 7 as well. I am arming myself with options that allows me to do that at a lower cost and probably large 2 br accommodations. Go back and read his posts, at no time did he say he WANTED/NEEDED more than 7 days - you stated that you prefer that. What you prefer to stay has no relevance to what Bill is asking nor does it matter.

I am trying to point out other alternatives that are possible in my infantile "2012" arrival knowledge. I am sorry I am not as "wise" as you are, but I think that my take on it allows a different perspective than your "established one". Absolutely Bill has the final say in how he spends his money and if he wishes to buy WKV then all the power to him, but using SO is not the ONLY way to accomplish what he wants. I think he will get more by spending less and according to my research much earlier than using SO and getting larger units for continuous weeks. If you are going to have a differing opinion, back it up with research and facts not just your "experience" that your way is the best way as obviously I have shown that there may be a better way from a "2012 newbie" which I would have assumed you would know as you have been here 4 years earlier and own way more Starwood and timeshares overall than me.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 10, 2013)

*Research For jarta*

WKV 2013 MF is $1,309.13 with taxes 2 br L/O. Purchase is $16-18K Resale with 148K SO

148K SO allows for just under 2 weeks at WPORV in a 1 br (81K for 1 week, weekend higher than weekday SO)

SDO 2013 MF $1055.04. Purchase <$1000 S-S exchange $129 x 2 = $1353.04 and according to prior bulk deposits - 2 br x 2 for 14 days.

*Summary:*
WKV $16-18K upfront plus $1309.13 for less than 2 weeks in 1 br WPOKV
SDO <$1K upfront plus $1353.04 for 2 weeks in 2 br WPOKV

The difference of $43.91 to stay 2 full weeks in a 2 br booked out 6-18 months in advance vs 8 months in advance for SO.


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## lizap (Aug 10, 2013)

Buying a 2 BR LO at WKV can get him 1 wk in a 1 BR at WPORV PLUS 3 wks in a studio or 2.5 wks in a 1 BR at Riverfront, since he can travel in off-peak times.   I contend that over time, even though you pay more upfront for WKV, you will recoup this cost in a reasonable time, and it is a good value.  Thus, even though the upfront cost is more for WKV (Staroptions), it represents a good value, if you can be flexible in your travel.  If he decides to forgo WPORV one year and only go to Riverfront, he can stay for a total of almost 6 wks (5 in a 1BR and 1 in a studio).  An SDO purchase to be used as a trader in II will get you two weeks.




Quadmaniac said:


> WKV 2013 MF is $1,309.13 with taxes 2 br L/O. Purchase is $16-18K Resale with 148K SO
> 
> 148K SO allows for just under 2 weeks at WPORV in a 1 br (81K for 1 week, weekend higher than weekday SO)
> 
> ...


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 10, 2013)

lizap said:


> Buying a 2 BR LO at WKV can get him 1 wk in a 1 BR at WPORV PLUS 3 wks in a studio or 2.5 wks in a 1 BR at Riverfront, since he can travel in off-peak times.   I contend that over time, even though you pay more upfront for WKV, you will recoup this cost in a reasonable time, and it is a good value.  Thus, even though the upfront cost is more for WKV (Staroptions), it represents a good value, if you can be flexible in your travel.  If he decides to forgo WPORV one year and only go to Riverfront, he can stay for a total of almost 6 wks (5 in a 1BR and 1 in a studio).  An SDO purchase to be used as a trader in II will get you two weeks.



But that is the thing, he is not asking to go to Riverfront for 6 weeks, he is asking to stay at WPORV for a week and MAYBE Avon. His PRIMARY goal is WPORV and that is the main concern. Maybe it would be better to focus in on what he wants and his application not other people's as that does not help him.

Trading two weeks with SDO will also generate 2 XYZs that can be used elsewhere. So 4 weeks. He can get both a week in WPORV and Avon for a week and still have two extra bonus trades.

Please show me how you will recoup your costs in a reasonable amount of time over SDO side by side. Dollars and cents. I'm not saying it WKV will not give you options, I am saying there is a cheaper way for what HE wants to do.


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## lizap (Aug 11, 2013)

Are there restrictions as where you can stay with the bonus weeks? 
If so, he might not be able to use them in Hawaii or Col.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 11, 2013)

lizap said:


> Are there restrictions as where you can stay with the bonus weeks?
> If so, he might not be able to use them in Hawaii or Col.



What was his original question ? What was his goal ? Anything beyond that is irrevelant


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## lizap (Aug 11, 2013)

It is very relevant as buying at a mandatory resort, such as WKV, gives Bill significantly more weeks (granted off-season) at a location he plans to visit, over buying a less expensive trader, such as SDO.  At some point, the extra weeks will more than make up for the extra upfront cost.



Quadmaniac said:


> What was his original question ? What was his goal ? Anything beyond that is irrevelant


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 11, 2013)

Best I can explain it is that you don't need a rocket ship to around the block. No matter what anyone says, you will never believe anything is better than your WKV, you got the great deal and its worth it to buy from a broker for your piece of mind, so no point in debating this with you further. The numbers are the numbers. When you can show the side by side comparison of costs and being further ahead with WKV, please post it.


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## Beefnot (Aug 11, 2013)

Quad pretty much broke it down to its very last compound. For what OP stated he wanted to do, buying WKV to accomplish this would be overkill. If at some point he sees value to other strategies and capabilities that SO provide, then shelling out $$ for WKV may appear more reasonable than II trades.


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## SMHarman (Aug 11, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> What was his original question ? What was his goal ? Anything beyond that is irrevelant



Which was why I suggested SMV as his Starwood purchase not SDO. It's where he wants to go and the math looks similar to #23

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## Bill4728 (Aug 11, 2013)

One part of my goals now in Timesharing is to buy resort I can sell when I want to get rid of one. THEREFORE I'm only buying resorts with a good resale value. I want to avoid having a resort which may be difficult to sell or even give away. Currently I own TSs in SoCal and one in Whistler which I can't even give away. I use them as traders and they are OK but I'd prefer to get rid of them. BUT no one wants them even for free and with me paying the closing costs. 


 So if I wanted to buy a starwood resort I'd only buy a mandatory resort which IMHO is always going to have a pretty fair resale value.


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## DeniseM (Aug 11, 2013)

You could also easily get rid of an SDO gold plus or plat week - they are valued as traders.


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## lizap (Aug 11, 2013)

WKVs resales do sell (you may not get exactly what you want, but they will sell) plus they have held value relatively well; since the beginning of the year, resale values have actually increased. There IS a reason WKV resales cost more to purchase.  The market dictates the price/value...  I personally think the ability (relatively speaking) to unload a TS should be a factor in a TS purchase; we never know when we may have to get out from under the MFs.




Bill4728 said:


> One part of my goals now in Timesharing is to buy resort I can sell when I want to get rid of one. THEREFORE I'm only buying resorts with a good resale value. I want to avoid having a resort which may be difficult to sell or even give away. Currently I own TSs in SoCal and one in Whistler which I can't even give away. I use them as traders and they are OK but I'd prefer to get rid of them. BUT no one wants them even for free and with me paying the closing costs.
> 
> 
> So if I wanted to buy a starwood resort I'd only buy a mandatory resort which IMHO is always going to have a pretty fair resale value.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 11, 2013)

Bill4728 said:


> One part of my goals now in Timesharing is to buy resort I can sell when I want to get rid of one. THEREFORE I'm only buying resorts with a good resale value. I want to avoid having a resort which may be difficult to sell or even give away. Currently I own TSs in SoCal and one in Whistler which I can't even give away. I use them as traders and they are OK but I'd prefer to get rid of them. BUT no one wants them even for free and with me paying the closing costs.
> 
> 
> So if I wanted to buy a starwood resort I'd only buy a mandatory resort which IMHO is always going to have a pretty fair resale value.



SDO 2 br units gold plus are generally in pretty high demand and you'll see some auctions on eBay go crazy for them as they are so popular. Can still get a good deal if you are patient.

1 br units are sometimes being given away, but 2 br consistently will sell, so worst case get an EOY 2 br if you want but for the difference in price (probably the same) get an annual. It will not be difficult to get rid of. Try it out and you'll be surprised by what you get with it. Worst case you can go blow the wad on WKV after. I use mine to go to WKORV exclusively and it was been working out so well I picked up an extra 1 br unit for just about free.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Real-Estate...e&_nkw=sheraton&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

Consistently the 2br units sell well


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## jarta (Aug 11, 2013)

Bill,  You made a big mistake coming back to explain yourself.  lol!   Salty


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## tomandrobin (Aug 11, 2013)

Staroption or not to Staroption.....

My personal experience, I prefer a week with Staroptions. 

I use staroptions almost exclusively and have not used much II since I have been an owner. When I have used II, I used my Kierland and pulled a bunch a really good trades.....all 1 bedrroms for 2 bedrooms.


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## Beefnot (Aug 11, 2013)

tomandrobin said:


> Staroption or not to Staroption.....
> 
> My personal experience, I prefer a week with Staroptions.
> 
> I use staroptions almost exclusively and have not used much II since I have been an owner. When I have used II, I used my Kierland and pulled a bunch a really good trades.....all 1 bedrroms for 2 bedrooms.



Many, if not most or all, of those same very good trades, 1 for 2, can be gotten with SDO as well.  If flexibility in number of days and across SVN is a priority, then SOs may be the most sensible move.  If the only priorities are getting to WKORV/WPORV for a week or two consecutively and ability to get rid of the TS if the time arose, then one would be hard pressed to overlook SDO as the most efficient way to do this.


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## tomandrobin (Aug 11, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Many, if not most or all, of those same very good trades, 1 for 2, can be gotten with SDO as well.  If flexibility in number of days and across SVN is a priority, then SOs may be the most sensible move.  If the only priorities are getting to WKORV/WPORV for a week or two consecutively and ability to get rid of the TS if the time arose, then one would be hard pressed to overlook SDO as the most efficient way to do this.



Sure.....But like I wrote, almost all my exchanges have been using Stoaroptions at the locations I want to vacation. I would not have made those same exchanges using SDO as a trader for WSJ and Harborside. SDO trades well, but I'll take the WKV for the best of both worlds. 

If you want to one hit and and done, I recommend just renting a week from an owner and not even bother buying a cheap SDO week. That is the most cost efficient way.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 11, 2013)

The cost of renting at wporv or wkorv for a week way more than the cost of SDO to purchase and your trade for the first year


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## momeason (Aug 11, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> You could also easily get rid of an SDO gold plus or plat week - they are valued as traders.



Yes and the cost is very low upfront..nothing to lose.


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## SMHarman (Aug 11, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> The cost of renting at wporv or wkorv for a week way more than the cost of SDO to purchase and your trade for the first year



And the costs of exiting that ownership. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## PamMo (Aug 12, 2013)

Bill is understandably cautious.

We all know SDO has been a GREAT trader for getting into WPORV and WKORV/WKORVN on the cheap in the past, but delinquent owners in Hawaii are being replaced by financially stable owners who are using their weeks. The stronger economy has people traveling again. The big carrot in banking StarOptions is the ability to save for The Big Trip. Since Starwood controls deposits, how many Hawaiian units (or HRA & WSJ for that matter) will be dumped into II, after they've built up expectations and demand among SVN owners? I'm not suggesting it will be impossible to trade SDO for Hawaii, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it becomes more difficult. I'm *very* curious to see what the next bulk deposits will be for Hawaii and Harborside. By contractual agreement with Interval, some units will have to be deposited, but were these last years of great bulk deposits an aberration or the norm?


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## alwysonvac (Aug 12, 2013)

Bill4728 said:


> *One part of my goals now in Timesharing is to buy resort I can sell when I want to get rid of one THEREFORE I'm only buying resorts with a good resale value. I want to avoid having a resort which may be difficult to sell or even give away*.. Currently I own TSs in SoCal and one in Whistler which I can't even give away. I use them as traders and they are OK but I'd prefer to get rid of them. BUT no one wants them even for free and with me paying the closing costs.
> 
> 
> So if I wanted to buy a starwood resort I'd only buy a mandatory resort which IMHO is always going to have a pretty fair resale value.



That was my thought process as well when I bought my Starwood mandatory resort. When the time comes I just want to be able to get rid of it. 

Also, the game can change at anytime (higher MFs, Starwood changes, II changes, etc). I believe the risk of II rules changing vs the StarOption rules changing is higher.


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## jarta (Aug 12, 2013)

> were these last years of great bulk deposits an aberration or the norm?



Pam,   ...   There are only a certain number of units available at WKORV/N for reservations each year.

For there to be continued great bulk deposits in II, there must be units available to deposit in II.  There are several ways units can get out of the Starwood reservation pool and into the II reservation pool.

WKORV/N owners can want to go elsewhere and rent out their week (nothing available to II) or release their right to stay at WKORV/N and use II.  

WKORV/N owners cannot reserve their unit: home resort owners can be locked out due to non-payment of MFs or old home resort owners can lose title to their property by non-payment of MFs or a mortgage.

HI can become a less popular destination for vacationing: high airfares, high room prices once you get there, high entertainment prices once you get there.

Less demand for rooms from SVO owners with StarOptions.

Which of these do you see happening in the next few years?  Where do you think any increased amount of bulk deposits will come from?  Will Starwood steal use periods from the home resort owners or the SVN float period traders just to turn the units over to II?  I don't know what the terms of the II agreement are or how long the current Starwood/II contract lasts, but I don't think so.

Once a WKORV/N week does get deposited in II, it seems like all resale owners at SDO and SBP who acquired their units over the past 3-4 years will be competing for the weeks deposited in II.

Only the most aggressive and diligent of the SDO and SBP II traders will be able to have their HI desires filled.  (That's why WKORV/N resale prices are rising as buyers calibrate how low a bid can pass ROFR.  Demand for WKORV/N units is up.)  

A couple of years of unfulfilled II requests and the smart ones in II will start dumping their SDO and SBP units and move on or use them to reserve back into SDO or SBP (where there will be plenty of weeks available in II).   Salty


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 12, 2013)

PamMo said:


> Bill is understandably cautious.
> 
> We all know SDO has been a GREAT trader for getting into WPORV and WKORV/WKORVN on the cheap in the past, but delinquent owners in Hawaii are being replaced by financially stable owners who are using their weeks. The stronger economy has people traveling again. The big carrot in banking StarOptions is the ability to save for The Big Trip. Since Starwood controls deposits, how many Hawaiian units (or HRA & WSJ for that matter) will be dumped into II, after they've built up expectations and demand among SVN owners? I'm not suggesting it will be impossible to trade SDO for Hawaii, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it becomes more difficult. I'm *very* curious to see what the next bulk deposits will be for Hawaii and Harborside. By contractual agreement with Interval, some units will have to be deposited, but were these last years of great bulk deposits an aberration or the norm?



But this is the thing, until it happens, you're just guessing. Of course the game can always change even with you owning in HI, but until it does, why are we predicting the worse or acting like Chicken Little with "the sky is falling" ? We can only go by what has happened in the past and the bulk deposits have been fantastic ! Until they do dry up, I would keep rolling the dice as I think I am free rolling anyways. 

In all honesty, with what I paid for my SDO, which was at a premium at $1475 (I was overly excited to buy my first eBay timeshare), I've more than gotten my money's worth after my first year and even if I had to pay a year's MF to get rid of it in the future, I would still be happy with it. I've had way more value out of it to even worry about it. Even if the gravy train of WKORV/N WPORV ended tomorrow, I would still be satisfied I got great value out it.


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## LisaRex (Aug 12, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Even if the gravy train of WKORV/N WPORV ended tomorrow, I would still be satisfied I got great value out it.



Yes, but I think the question is, "If the great exchanges I'm experiencing with SDO today dried up tomorrow, would I be able to get rid of it?"


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 12, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> Yes, but I think the question is, "If the great exchanges I'm experiencing with SDO today dried up tomorrow, would I be able to get rid of it?"



How difficult is it to get rid of other timeshares ? At the most, it's been one year's MF. Otherwise it has been also able to trade into Marriotts as well, so if it ever happens, its not that big of a deal. Its not as if it will be become non tradeable in any capacity.

Is it that big of a deal selling something that I bought for $1475 and possiby have to pay $1055 MF and closing costs $300 so  maybe total $2830 if it ever gets to that point ? Have I had more value than that so far ? Yep. But luckily that is not the case and they are still selling well on eBay. I have no fear that it is going to get to the worst case scenario. I've "lost"$2830". What if the prices of WKV dives to $5 K ? You lose $13K, is that better ?

There will always be what ifs - how about you pass away and the spouse has no idea what to do with your timeshares and they are stuck with them ? Isn't that a more like scenario ?

In any case, you can't let fear dictate your future. Go with the best information you have of the past to decide upon the future. No one has a crystal ball, but it is like many of the people stressing about the end of the world May 2012. If that was the case, everyone should have been stocking up on dried foods and building below ground shelters. Sounds kind of silly doesn't it ?


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 12, 2013)

jarta said:


> Bill,  You made a big mistake coming back to explain yourself.  lol!   Salty



I'm surprised for once, you did not have a followup.


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## lizap (Aug 12, 2013)

Many of us have used the 'best information available' and have decided to purchase at WKV.  There is little doubt in our minds that it was the right decision for us.  We're not going to convince you and you are not going to convince us.



Quadmaniac said:


> How difficult is it to get rid of other timeshares ? At the most, it's been one year's MF. Otherwise it has been also able to trade into Marriotts as well, so if it ever happens, its not that big of a deal. Its not as if it will be become non tradeable in any capacity.
> 
> Is it that big of a deal selling something that I bought for $1475 and possiby have to pay $1055 MF and closing costs $300 so  maybe total $2830 if it ever gets to that point ? Have I had more value than that so far ? Yep. But luckily that is not the case and they are still selling well on eBay. I have no fear that it is going to get to the worst case scenario. I've "lost"$2830". What if the prices of WKV dives to $5 K ? You lose $13K, is that better ?
> 
> ...


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## PamMo (Aug 12, 2013)

Quad, in no way am I saying the sky is falling. (I own an SDO VOI, so I hope the good times roll.) I AM saying that I appreciate a long term timeshare owner's hesitancy to buy into a voluntary resort for II trades into Hawaii. Bill owns a resort he can't give away, and doesn't want to get stuck with another. Tuggers who bought SDO in the last few years have had great luck with Starwood-to-Starwood trades in Interval. It's easy to give away an SDO timeshare now, but if those coveted bulk deposit weeks dry up, will there still be a demand for our SDO timeshares? You're pretty new at this, and obviously haven't been stuck with paying year after year of MF's on a timeshare you don't personally use, can't get the trades you want anymore, and it's next to impossible to find someone to take it off your hands. I respect that we all have different comfort levels for risk/reward due to varied experiences, knowledge, and resources.

_ "Many of us have used the 'best information available' and have decided to purchase at WKV. There is little doubt in our minds that it was the right decision for us. We're not going to convince you and you are not going to convince us." Lizap_

Some of us are even happy we bought in Hawaii, the Bahamas, and St John - even with our ridiculously high MF's! ;-)


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## DeniseM (Aug 12, 2013)

Just a reality check: Just like there is no guarantee that trading will always be good through II - there is no guarantee that ANY resort will continue to have Staroptions in the future.  

Look what happened at Villas of Cave Creek.  The BOD kicked Starwood out, and owners there no longer have Staroptions - that even impacted some Elite Owners who requalified VCC deeds to reach Elite Status, and then lost their Elite Status when Starwood left.  Do I expect that to happen at WKV? - I don't, but my point is that having Staroptions today, is no guarantee that you will have them next year.

The timeshare game is not for sissies!  There are NO guarantees that any "club" perks will last forever - in the end, with SDO, or WKV, or any Starwood timeshare, all you have is a deed....  So pull up your big boy/big girl pants, and figure out the best strategy for YOU.


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## PamMo (Aug 12, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> ....figure out the best strategy for YOU.



I couldn't agree more!


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## LisaRex (Aug 12, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Is it that big of a deal selling something that I bought for $1475 and possiby have to pay $1055 MF and closing costs $300 so  maybe total $2830 if it ever gets to that point



Read Bill's post. He has a few timeshares that he cannot even give away, and he's willing to pay the closing costs.  That's far worse than a $3k loss.  

You shouldn't be ruled by fear but you should exercise reasonable caution when signing a contract that obligates you to pay even if you don't use it anymore.


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## PassionForTravel (Aug 13, 2013)

Based upon the trade tests that I've done with my SDO unit I've been very surprised what it pulls outside of Starwood preference. That isn't going away even if access to HI ends. The reason is that people want to go to Phoenix in the winter and spring. Just look through Ii for SDO weeks they are not that prevalent. No question that WKV is the more desired resort just look at the rents, but with the upgrades SDO is a nice place too.


Ian


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> Read Bill's post. He has a few timeshares that he cannot even give away, and he's willing to pay the closing costs.  That's far worse than a $3k loss.
> 
> You shouldn't be ruled by fear but you should exercise reasonable caution when signing a contract that obligates you to pay even if you don't use it anymore.



I did read it, that's why I gave the example of my costs. The resort trades well with non Starwood as well, so even without the bulk deposits, it has been a good trader. SDO is currently easily resellable. Can that change in the future ? Absolutely, but so can WKV as well. There is risk in any timeshare. If you can't stomach the downside and long term commitment of MF each year, should someone even buy one ?

It is food for thought and I did take this into consideration before buying mine. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

PamMo said:


> You're pretty new at this, and obviously haven't been stuck with paying year after year of MF's on a timeshare you don't personally use, can't get the trades you want anymore, and it's next to impossible to find someone to take it off your hands. I respect that we all have different comfort levels for risk/reward due to varied experiences, knowledge, and resources.



I possibly have one of those on my hands after my lame friend backed out the Fairmont Hot Springs with the special assessment when he agreed to it a year before the assessment came out. I am in the process of suing my ex-friend but even if it goes south, I'm fine eating those costs if I have to. The cost of doing business I guess.

Anyone who can not afford the downside should not have bought one in the first place is my thoughts, but to each their own.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> Many of us have used the 'best information available' and have decided to purchase at WKV.  There is little doubt in our minds that it was the right decision for us.  We're not going to convince you and you are not going to convince us.



Each person buys it for a different reason. I am not saying your decision for you is wrong. For Bill's needs based on what he listed, SDO fits the situation as there is no guarantee with either SDO or WKV 100% that it can be resold in the future. Currently both can be at this time, but that can change. There is risk everywhere. Buying WKV does not guarantee anything for the future resell-ability.

You keep saying that you will break even after a few years, so please share with me what I am missing. I've asked you three times now to share the dollar and cents spreadsheet calculations with me, but you have yet to show me. Rather than just make a broad statement that this is the best way, make it objective rather than subjective as I have done with the calculations I provided. 

I am trying to make this as transparent and black and white as possible, so please help me understand by calculating the numbers when I would break even. If you can show me I am further ahead buying WKV vs SDO side by side, heck I will buy one too. I look forward to your numbers. My application or use is specifically for Maui with my SDO, so show me how I am further ahead trading into WKORV using WKV Staroptions. Let's leave ego and chest beating at the door and just deal with the bottom line, money - show me the money! You did declare you would make your money back, so show me how your system is better value for your money.

EDIT :

I went back to do some research for you and this is what I came up with. In the market place area, I found a rental for a 2 br WKV for $2750 during spring training. Let's say someone negotiated down to $2650. The MF is about $1300, so net you would make $1350 per year. Take off about $50 for advertising on Redweek/paypal fees/ etc leaving $1300 per year. Assuming no increase in rent or MF for easy math going forward. 

Let's assume you paid $18,000 for your WKV, that means you would have to rent it out 13.85 times to "break even" after that time, you have earned your money back and now going to use it at WKORV @ 148,000 SO will get one week at WKORV in a 2br. I will use a 2br as that is the comparable to what the bulk deposits were. Let's now assume after 14 years, the $1300 MF (assume no change MF) gets you one week at WKORV.

I paid $1475 for my SDO plus each year about $1353.04 for 2 weeks in 2 br WKORV every year. In my first year I have paid about a little over $1400 per week using the purchase price up in the first year with the MF and exchange fees. Subsequent years would only be the $1353.04 for 2 weeks.

So according to my calculations you need to rent it out 14 years to break even before you can get 1 week at $1300 per week for WKV to get to WKORV. For SDO, we are taking the hit the first year for $1400 per week and subsequent years $1353.04 for 2 weeks in 2 br WKORV.

The cheapest rental week at WKORV in a 2br in the TUG market place is $2450. 
    a) WKV $1300 for a $2450 week means $+1150 savings each year starting at year 14
    b) SDO $1353.04 for 2 x $2450 = $4900 - $1353.04 = +$3546.96 savings per year
        14 years x $3546.96 = $49,647.44 - $1475 purchase = $48,182.44 in savings the first 14 years 
        after 14 years, the difference in savings is $3546.96 - $1150 = $2396.96 each year plus an extra week in a 2 br.

Maybe you can help me with my math, as I can't seem to see where you are ahead or breaking even in a "couple of years". I don't understand, so please correct me by comparing apples to apples, not on different sized units or resorts. This would be basically the same for Bill's case when his primary is WPORV. 148K SO for 1 week in a 2br WPORV or 2 weeks using SDO right now. Let's not go off on tangents saying SO can be used for this and that, just focus on the original goal WPORV as that was the PRIMARY goal for getting another timeshare, not any other.

ASSUMPTIONS : All conditions remain the same as they are now - no increase in MF or rent (for easy math), Staroptions do not change and bulk deposits do not change. As we have not seen any indication of any change, we are basing it on current conditions as that is all we know at this point.


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## jarta (Aug 13, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> WKV 2013 MF is $1,309.13 with taxes 2 br L/O. Purchase is $16-18K Resale with 148K SO
> 
> 148K SO allows for just under 2 weeks at WPORV in a 1 br (81K for 1 week, weekend higher than weekday SO)
> 
> ...



Quad,   ..  The numbers look OK to me.  

I prefer flexibility and certainty.  StarOptions provide that.  (Hint:  that's why the resale prices of mandatory reports are higher.)  

One week in HI is not enough to justify a trip for me; 2 weeks gives me island fever.  I prefer converting Staroptions.  I prefer banking StarOptions.  If II or WKV goes south, I would much prefer staying at WKV rather than SDO.

You seem to be the ideal example of a person who will dump SDO ownership as soon as you can if it becomes difficult to reserve in HI.  You have no loyalty to the resort you own.  You do not seem to be the type of owner that SDO and your fellow owners need to thrive - or even survive - in SVO.  It's OK to be a timeshare parasite.  It doesn't affect me.  I own at WKV.   Salty


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## SMHarman (Aug 13, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I went back to do some research for you and this is what I came up with. In the market place area, I found a rental for a 2 br WKV for $2750 during spring training. Let's say someone negotiated down to $2650. The MF is about $1300, so net you would make $1350 per year. Take off about $50 for advertising on Redweek/paypal fees/ etc leaving $1300 per year. Assuming no increase in rent or MF for easy math going forward.
> 
> Let's assume you paid $18,000 for your WKV, that means you would have to rent it out 13.85 times to "break even" after that time, you have earned your money back and now going to use it at WKORV @ 148,000 SO will get one week at WKORV in a 2br. I will use a 2br as that is the comparable to what the bulk deposits were. Let's now assume after 14 years, the $1300 MF (assume no change MF) gets you one week at WKORV.
> 
> ...


All that math looks good.
However, you can still put the WKV week into II and pull to WPORV 2br out so then your math still comes back to the purchase price difference.  However,
1) You are comparing doing the trade in WKV with SO and doing it with SDO in II.  WKV can be traded in SDO and II.  
2) You are not adding the few hundred dollars of II exchange fees.
3) Your 2x 1Br = 2x 2Br requires instant exchange not an ongoing search so again not comparing apples to apples.
4) On an apples to apples comparison the SO will get you 13 nights in WPORV 1Br vs 14 nights with the II trades.
5) I can book and confirm my SO trade 8 months out and then move on to securing air.  That is less likely to happen with an II trade.
6) I can use SO to book into WSJ and HRA and WKORV (/N).  An II trade to one of those (especially the first two) is highly unlikely (those are buy where (and when) you want to go resorts)
7) You are using a straight SO>SO comparison.  I could use my 2Br to book WLR in Jan for 13 days with SO.  If I wanted to go for longer I could use my WKV 148 SO for about 3.5 weeks in a 1Br there.
8)  With kids in school I believe my ability to get a school vacation week is greater than with an II trade.  Bill talked of his flexible travel schedule, others of us don't
9)  WKV is a resort people really want to go to.  Look at the TUG resort ratings, It's #1 http://tug2.com/RnR/ResortsGrid.aspx?TOP10=true&ResortName=Starwood WKV is a desirable trade into during the Platinum Plus season.
10)  WKV (and probably SDO) is self financing.  You can rent the small 1Br for over $1300 in the spring and then use the large 1Br or the SO to have a week vacation paid for by the rental of the small side.  In fact, if I took the 1Br Rental to be $1600 in my pocket, the $300 difference equates to a 1.6% interest rate which is better than the 0.1% I get in my savings account, and possibly, just possibly, if all else remains the same (using your assumptions) I might just end up with a capital gain on selling WKV in the future.

So there is pure math and applied math.  In the real world this is not always down to $/c but the when can play pretty heavily.  While it is 8 in the list below, that was a key reason I went with WKV.

Now my fuzzy math for 2014 is that my 2Br in WKV (MF 1300 / Rental 2600) - and some rolled SO, got me 8 days in HRA (MF 2950 / Rental $3600 (7d)).   I'm happy with that trade.  I think that is a trade I would not have got in II and thats $1k toward the purchase price (or is it $2300 to the purchase price?  At $2300 to the purchase price thats 8 years until the purchase price is covered by great exchanges.


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## PassionForTravel (Aug 13, 2013)

I was following the math until #7. How do you get 3.5 weeks with 148k of star options.

Ian


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## VacationForever (Aug 13, 2013)

PassionForTravel said:


> I was following the math until #7. How do you get 3.5 weeks with 148k of star options.
> 
> Ian



Lower season...


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## margolism (Aug 13, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> 10)  WKV (and probably SDO) is self financing.  You can rent the small 1Br for over $1300 in the spring and then use the large 1Br or the SO to have a week vacation paid for by the rental of the small side.  In fact, if I took the 1Br Rental to be $1600 in my pocket, the $300 difference equates to a 1.6% interest rate which is better than the 0.1% I get in my savings account, and possibly, just possibly, if all else remains the same (using your assumptions) I might just end up with a capital gain on selling WKV in the future.



I think this analysis presents a reasonable argument for purchasing WKV, especially if you are in a situation that requires the ability to book prime weeks.  I agree that certain benefits (flexibility, increasing booking odds at high demand times, etc.) do have real value that a straight financial analysis does not necessarily reflect. 

The one piece I disagree with is the "self financing."  I don't think that it is as simple as the difference between the rental rate and the maintenance, since there is that gorilla of an initial purchase price that needs to be accounted for.  Even if you amortize a theoretical $18K initial purchase price over 10 years, to be truly "self financing" the income in would have to cover the combined amount of the maintenance and annual fraction of the initial purchase price.

It would be interesting for WKV owners to keep a log reflecting how each year was used (actually used, rented, exchanged for greater value ts, etc.) to see how long it takes to recoup the initial purchase price.  For some I could imagine it could be relatively quick, for others much longer.

If it were me, I would probably go with the WKV option because I lack schedule flexibility.  The SDO option is clearly a better value for someone who does not need prime weeks.  

A timeshare you cannot use when and where you want it doesn't seem worth the headaches.  It is for that reason I got a WLR 2BR platinum plus - I didn't want to risk not getting the property and week I wanted in the future.  (Plus, the math worked out that I would break even on it this year, given the total acquisition costs and prepaid & included 2013 usage.)


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## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

Forget it.... You're not going to convince him...I'll return to an earlier statement 'the market drives/dictates price/value'. If WKV wasn't worth more, it wouldn't be valued more in the marketplace, plain and simple.  It is amazing that some people think they are getting something of equal or better value when they pay significantly less for it.  There ARE reasons you're paying thousands more for WKV and those have been well articulated in this thread!




SMHarman said:


> All that math looks good.
> However, you can still put the WKV week into II and pull to WPORV 2br out so then your math still comes back to the purchase price difference.  However,
> 1) You are comparing doing the trade in WKV with SO and doing it with SDO in II.  WKV can be traded in SDO and II.
> 2) You are not adding the few hundred dollars of II exchange fees.
> ...


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 13, 2013)

PassionForTravel said:


> I was following the math until #7. How do you get 3.5 weeks with 148k of star options.
> 
> Ian


WKV and WPORV and WKORV are all 148k SO weeks in January (2BRLO).
WLR is a 81k weeks are a lower season 81k weeks in January (also 2BRLO) so the 148k gets 7 days in a 1BrPR and another 7 days in a 1BrSt.
Or with a Sunday checkin and Saturday checkout you can use 145830 SO to stay in the 2Brlo premium for 13 nights so no room change

Staying in the 1Br Premium for the duration the 147400 SO with a Sunday check in gets you 24 nights.  In the studio you get 28 nights for 148,000 SO.

As liz pointed out a change of seasons and change of room size can stretch a Platinum Plus purchase a long way.  Those 28 nights in that Studio in WLR would cost 1400 in MF so $50 a night.

I guess in the SDO / II model, II will give bonus weeks with the deposit which could even this additional stay time out.



margolism said:


> I think this analysis presents a reasonable argument for purchasing WKV, especially if you are in a situation that requires the ability to book prime weeks.  I agree that certain benefits (flexibility, increasing booking odds at high demand times, etc.) do have real value that a straight financial analysis does not necessarily reflect.
> 
> The one piece I disagree with is the "self financing."  I don't think that it is as simple as the difference between the rental rate and the maintenance, since there is that gorilla of an initial purchase price that needs to be accounted for.  Even if you amortize a theoretical $18K initial purchase price over 10 years, to be truly "self financing" the income in would have to cover the combined amount of the maintenance and annual fraction of the initial purchase price.
> 
> ...


Perhaps self carrying would be a better phrase.  The cost to carry of $1300-$1400 a year is covered by the rental still leaving me with 81k SO to use for a week somewhere.

Now assuming (a pretty good assumption) I would be spending $ for my own weeks vacation (now I sound like a TS salesperson) anyways, I can using this admittedly fuzzy math, use that money that would have been spent on a vacation to repay the capital.

So now 
Y0 -18k outflow to purchase TS
Y0 -1400MF
Y0 +1600 Rental
Y0 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (so put into savings and reinvested).
Y1 +1600 Rental
Y1 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (a TS salesman starts adding inflation here).
Y2 +1600 Rental
Y2 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
Y3 +1600 Rental
Y3 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
etc.

Using that math at year 7 the original $18k of capital is paid off so the WKV resale could fall to 0 and I would be at break even.  If I got any of that capital back (assuming no changes as QUAD says) which is a reasonable assumption.  In fact, I can assume I get my $18k back at this point in Quads model.

So 

Y8 +18000 sell WKV
means that at Y8 I am up $18k.

 I <3 fuzzy math, but I stuck with Quads assumptions.


lizap said:


> Forget it.... You're not going to convince him...I'll return to an earlier statement 'the market drives/dictates price/value'. If WKV wasn't worth more, it wouldn't be valued more in the marketplace, plain and simple.  It is amazing that some people think they are getting something of equal or better value when they pay next to nothing for it.  There IS a reason you're paying thousands more for WKV and those have been well articulated in this thread!


Thing is, we are all correct.  SDO is an excellent value proposition if you have flexibility in your travel timing, you can get most of what you can get with WKV but for $16k less up front.  The SDO week could be rented out and then that rental $ plus some of the $16k saved could allow you to book a week at HRA or WKV from an owner.

That's why it is critical to assess what the purchaser needs and suggest according to their needs.  To that point I suggested Bill bought a SMV summer week to use to trade in II for WPORV.  That gets him a 12m booking window at SMV and II SVO priority on WPORV.  Bill never said he wanted to visit SDO.  Bill did say he considered WKV for the SO benefit but with travel flexibility the SO benefit is lessened.

Here is a Summer Westin week.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/390630614530?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 though it is a badly written listing as the SO won't transfer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390632160952?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 and another with 26 bids that went for $2600.
SMV Summer http://www.ebay.com/itm/200932212952?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 which sold so is indicative that you can get in and out of summer weeks at SMV.
or an SMV Winter 1Br but this was a BK sale http://www.ebay.com/itm/161043644872?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
There is much less ebay activity on the Avon SVO weeks.


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## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

By carefully planning where we want to exchange during the first few years of ownership (i.e., Hawaii, WSJ), we will recoup our original investment in approximately 3 -4 years.  But we are fairly flexible in our travel dates.  Also, how likely is it to be able to use bonus weeks at a specific desired location?


QUOTE=SMHarman;1511824]WKV and WPORV and WKORV are all 148k SO weeks in January (2BRLO).
WLR is a 81k weeks are a lower season 81k weeks in January (also 2BRLO) so the 148k gets 7 days in a 1BrPR and another 7 days in a 1BrSt.
Or with a Sunday checkin and Saturday checkout you can use 145830 SO to stay in the 2Brlo premium for 13 nights so no room change

Staying in the 1Br Premium for the duration the 147400 SO with a Sunday check in gets you 24 nights.  In the studio you get 28 nights for 148,000 SO.

As liz pointed out a change of seasons and change of room size can stretch a Platinum Plus purchase a long way.  Those 28 nights in that Studio in WLR would cost 1400 in MF so $50 a night.

I guess in the SDO / II model, II will give bonus weeks with the deposit which could even this additional stay time out.


Perhaps self carrying would be a better phrase.  The cost to carry of $1300-$1400 a year is covered by the rental still leaving me with 81k SO to use for a week somewhere.

Now assuming (a pretty good assumption) I would be spending $ for my own weeks vacation (now I sound like a TS salesperson) anyways, I can using this admittedly fuzzy math, use that money that would have been spent on a vacation to repay the capital.

So now 
Y0 -18k outflow to purchase TS
Y0 -1400MF
Y0 +1600 Rental
Y0 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (so put into savings and reinvested).
Y1 +1600 Rental
Y1 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (a TS salesman starts adding inflation here).
Y2 +1600 Rental
Y2 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
Y3 +1600 Rental
Y3 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
etc.

Using that math at year 7 the original $18k of capital is paid off so the WKV resale could fall to 0 and I would be at break even.  If I got any of that capital back (assuming no changes as QUAD says) which is a reasonable assumption.  In fact, I can assume I get my $18k back at this point in Quads model.

So 

Y8 +18000 sell WKV
means that at Y8 I am up $18k.

 I <3 fuzzy math, but I stuck with Quads assumptions.[/QUOTE]


----------



## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

You're right.  But we don't want to rent out and want a greater chance of getting certain resorts (i.e., WSJ, Hawaii).  I believe you have a greater chance using StarOptions; certainly a greater chance of getting it earlier...As Denise pointed out earlier, if all plans to exchange fail, we were willing to pay more for a beautiful property that we will enjoy returning to year after year during peak season... Like many others, I am of the opinion that you should buy at a resort you would be happy visiting, if exchange options dry up...

QUOTE=SMHarman;1511824]WKV and WPORV and WKORV are all 148k SO weeks in January (2BRLO).
WLR is a 81k weeks are a lower season 81k weeks in January (also 2BRLO) so the 148k gets 7 days in a 1BrPR and another 7 days in a 1BrSt.
Or with a Sunday checkin and Saturday checkout you can use 145830 SO to stay in the 2Brlo premium for 13 nights so no room change

Staying in the 1Br Premium for the duration the 147400 SO with a Sunday check in gets you 24 nights.  In the studio you get 28 nights for 148,000 SO.

As liz pointed out a change of seasons and change of room size can stretch a Platinum Plus purchase a long way.  Those 28 nights in that Studio in WLR would cost 1400 in MF so $50 a night.

I guess in the SDO / II model, II will give bonus weeks with the deposit which could even this additional stay time out.


Perhaps self carrying would be a better phrase.  The cost to carry of $1300-$1400 a year is covered by the rental still leaving me with 81k SO to use for a week somewhere.

Now assuming (a pretty good assumption) I would be spending $ for my own weeks vacation (now I sound like a TS salesperson) anyways, I can using this admittedly fuzzy math, use that money that would have been spent on a vacation to repay the capital.

So now 
Y0 -18k outflow to purchase TS
Y0 -1400MF
Y0 +1600 Rental
Y0 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (so put into savings and reinvested).
Y1 +1600 Rental
Y1 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week (a TS salesman starts adding inflation here).
Y2 +1600 Rental
Y2 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
Y3 +1600 Rental
Y3 +2000 of own dollars not spent on a vacation week.
etc.

Using that math at year 7 the original $18k of capital is paid off so the WKV resale could fall to 0 and I would be at break even.  If I got any of that capital back (assuming no changes as QUAD says) which is a reasonable assumption.  In fact, I can assume I get my $18k back at this point in Quads model.

So 

Y8 +18000 sell WKV
means that at Y8 I am up $18k.

 I <3 fuzzy math, but I stuck with Quads assumptions.

Thing is, we are all correct.  SDO is an excellent value proposition if you have flexibility in your travel timing, you can get most of what you can get with WKV but for $16k less up front.  The SDO week could be rented out and then that rental $ plus some of the $16k saved could allow you to book a week at HRA or WKV from an owner.

That's why it is critical to assess what the purchaser needs and suggest according to their needs.  To that point I suggested Bill bought a SMV summer week to use to trade in II for WPORV.  That gets him a 12m booking window at SMV and II SVO priority on WPORV.  Bill never said he wanted to visit SDO.  Bill did say he considered WKV for the SO benefit but with travel flexibility the SO benefit is lessened.[/QUOTE]


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## PassionForTravel (Aug 13, 2013)

I see where my error was. I missed that you had switched over to WLR for the 3 1/2 weeks, makes sense now.

You are also correct the OP did mention Avon. I forget that SMV is there in addition to the Westin.

Ian


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## SMHarman (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> You're right.  But we don't want to rent out and want a greater chance of getting certain resorts (i.e., WSJ, Hawaii).  I believe you have a greater chance using StarOptions; certainly a greater chance of getting it earlier...As Denise pointed out earlier, if all plans to exchange fail, we were willing to pay more for a beautiful property that we will enjoy returning to year after year during peak season... Like many others, I am of the opinion that you should buy at a resort you would be happy visiting, if exchange options dry up...


I also don't plan much renting, however my purchase came with 2013 use (and of course the bill for 2013 MF) and we had already planned our 2013 vacation so I rolled those 148 options into 2014.  Looking to 2014 and 2015 vacation plans I am not sure that those options will get used so am effectively renting 67k of them.  I could equally use the fuzzy math of the out $1400 MF and direct to savings the $3600 I would have spent to rent the week from someone else which gives the same mathematical result.
(and before anyone gets their knickers in a twist I am actually renting my 2014 use WKV small 1Br) and using the rest of my 2014 SO and some of my banked SO to travel to HRA - it's all above board)


PassionForTravel said:


> I see where my error was. I missed that you had switched over to WLR for the 3 1/2 weeks, makes sense now.
> 
> You are also correct the OP did mention Avon. I forget that SMV is there in addition to the Westin.
> 
> Ian



And Lakeside Terrace (but those are 2br (no LO), so less handy for trading as you cannot split the week.


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## Ken555 (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> By carefully planning where we want to exchange during the first few years of ownership (i.e., Hawaii, WSJ), we will recoup our original investment in approximately 3 -4 years.  But we are fairly flexible in our travel dates.



Now it begins to make sense. It appears you are valuing each use of StarOptions at rack rate, or similar, for stays at the resorts. So, assuming you otherwise would have paid that rate for the nights at the resort, your WKV investment will pay off quickly. Is this correct?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## tomandrobin (Aug 13, 2013)

Seems there are two different directions this thread is going....Answering the OP's question vs best use of SDO vs WKV. 

For the OP, I think the SDO is the right choice. 

For someone like me, WKV is the right choice. 

Where the timeshare values will be in a few years.....who knows? Its anyone's guess. Heck, Starwood might spin off or sell the timeshare unit. This system certainly is stagnant with nothing new in a long time and nothing planned either. 

Remember when South African timeshares were hot! Where are they now?


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## SMHarman (Aug 13, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Now it begins to make sense. It appears you are valuing each use of StarOptions at rack rate, or similar, for stays at the resorts. So, assuming you otherwise would have paid that rate for the nights at the resort, your WKV investment will pay off quickly. Is this correct?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I'm valuing at rental from owner rate for the week they are being used. 
I got the rates from the tug rental by owner page, not from Starwood hotels site. 

OK so I went through the atlantis.com portal.  The 2Br LO for the 8 nights is $6240 plus $1910 of Tax, Fee and Gratuity.  Total $8,150

Another poster mentioned Atlantis Family Fun which i assume is https://www.familyfunatatlantis.com/reservations/rates.php They will seal the deal for 7 nights (that SO benefit of the 8th night is missing) for $6,198

On this site http://tug2.com/RnR/TabResortClassi...sortGUID=a63587d7-aa91-403e-bb67-6888702f074e 2014 Wk 8 is on offer for $3600.  Thats the price I picked.  If I was writing a check to go there, that would be the check I would consider writing.

Similarly if I look at WKV rental rates $2750-$3400 and that is where i got the 1Br rental rate from (that and maybe it was in Quads assumptions).

MF is $1400.

So for sure, No, I am not using the hotel booking rate as the rate to compare here.  If I did that the WKV purchase is covered in about 2 years 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 13, 2013)

I am at ~60% and ~50% payoff for my 2 WKV Plat-Prem 1Bd (81K SO) villas that had 1st usage in 2007 and 2008, respectively, by renting alone.  Plus, have stayed at resort once, and used one for a SVN exchange for a 1Bd WKORV.

Also consider that as resorts like WPORV and WSJ-BV becomes sold-out, and people start using banked SOs to stay at the desired resorts - the ability to use II may become more difficult as occupancy and SVN exchanges increase - and may limit II exchanges to only low-low season.  If that works for some people - great - but as view location matters to us - II becomes even less attractive.

While officially the WPORV view catagory is all the same, about 10% of the villas have premium locations. As WPORV EOY Owners, calling 12 months ahead, we are 2 for 2 in getting these premier locations that have fantastic ocean views (and sunrise/sunset) - posted photos and videos of these previously.  I will find out in a few weeks if this becomes 3 for 3. Fingers-crosssed that I do not have to haggle at the Front Desk when checking in (bringing my reservation with email time-stamp).


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## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

My analysis uses discounted Starwood rates.  If you rent directly from an owner (renting directly from an owner carries additional risks, so not sure it's entirely appropriate to use this rate), it would take longer, of course.  But still you will recoup your investment within a reasonable time, as previous analysis on this thread shows.




Ken555 said:


> Now it begins to make sense. It appears you are valuing each use of StarOptions at rack rate, or similar, for stays at the resorts. So, assuming you otherwise would have paid that rate for the nights at the resort, your WKV investment will pay off quickly. Is this correct?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Ken555 (Aug 13, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> So for sure, No, I am not using the hotel booking rate as the rate to compare here.  If I did that the WKV purchase is covered in about 2 years
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2



I was querying Lizap, not you... I think you had previously posted how you justified the rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Ken555 (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> My analysis uses discounted Starwood rates.  If you rent directly from an owner (renting directly from an owner carries additional risks, so not sure it's entirely appropriate to use this rate), it would take longer, of course.  But still you will recoup your investment within a reasonable time, as previous analysis on this thread shows.



"Discounted Starwood rates". This is the issue with fuzzy variable confusing timeshare purchase justification math posts. Everyone has a different basis of value for the time utilized. 

Personally, I don't think using your method is realistic unless you were willing to spend the same amount each year for the rental. If you did this, then it makes a lot of sense to you. But, it may not make a lot of sense to others since that travel pattern/expense isn't realistic for them. 

I own a WKV Plat 148 week and have posted numerous times on TUG of my success rate over the years at using it at multiple resorts. I think it's a great week. But I would never amortize cost based on any rate from Starwood since I wouldn't spend thousands per week to rent the unit - it's just not worth it to me to do so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## sjsharkie (Aug 13, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Personally, I don't think using your method is realistic unless you were willing to spend the same amount each year for the rental. If you did this, then it makes a lot of sense to you. But, it may not make a lot of sense to others since that travel pattern/expense isn't realistic for them.
> 
> I own a WKV Plat 148 week and have posted numerous times on TUG of my success rate over the years at using it at multiple resorts. I think it's a great week. But I would never amortize cost based on any rate from Starwood since I wouldn't spend thousands per week to rent the unit - it's just not worth it to me to do so.



I agree with Ken.

A better comparison would be to use your personal opportunity cost.  For some, this may be the discounted Starwood rates, average rate of a rental for that particular week ... for me it likely would be a slight downgrade in accommodations as I am not spending thousands for room cost when going on vacation.

On another note, I strangely seem to be agreeing a lot with Ken lately.  There must be something in the water.

-ryan


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## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

We have and will continue to pay discounted Starwood rates (hopefully not as frequently as in the past), so my analysis makes sense for us and others like us.  But as I noted, you still recoup WKV cost in a reasonable amount of time even if you use rental rates.  I'm quite happy with our strategy/analysis; you seem to be happy with yours as well.




Ken555 said:


> "Discounted Starwood rates". This is the issue with fuzzy variable confusing timeshare purchase justification math posts. Everyone has a different basis of value for the time utilized.
> 
> Personally, I don't think using your method is realistic unless you were willing to spend the same amount each year for the rental. If you did this, then it makes a lot of sense to you. But, it may not make a lot of sense to others since that travel pattern/expense isn't realistic for them.
> 
> ...


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

jarta said:


> Quad,   ..  The numbers look OK to me.
> 
> I prefer flexibility and certainty.  StarOptions provide that.  (Hint:  that's why the resale prices of mandatory reports are higher.)
> 
> ...



Fine then you should state that your prefer Staroptions for XXX rather than twist facts to your argument when you completely missed what Bill was asking as your mouth was running faster than your brain to see he could travel during those 8 months, not that he wanted it 8 months in advance and that he was flexible - he did not need a specific time ahead or time period.

So now I am a parasite ? Just like everyone else on II that trades. If WKV suddenly does not work for you, would you not sell it as well ? So you are a parasite as well, are you not ? As long as I pay my dues on time, whether I stay at SDO or trade it does not matter. The whole resort could sit empty, as long as the fees are paid, who cares ? When you buy your car, does the car dealer care if you drive it every day or not at all ? Does the real estate agent care if you live in the house you buy, rent it or leave it vacant ? No they don't. As long as you are responsible with your financial obligations, who cares ? What is it of your business ? If you pay your WKV fees, there is no obligation for you to stay or trade it either. 

If this is the case then many of the timeshare owners are parasites in your view. Great insight into your mind.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> All that math looks good.
> However, you can still put the WKV week into II and pull to WPORV 2br out so then your math still comes back to the purchase price difference.  However,
> 1) You are comparing doing the trade in WKV with SO and doing it with SDO in II.  WKV can be traded in SDO and II.


Absolutely you can, but lizap was stating she bought to use SO specifically. I agree it can be used to trade in II as well, the fees will be about $300 higher due to the diff in MF between SDO vs WKV


SMHarman said:


> 2) You are not adding the few hundred dollars of II exchange fees.


Actually I am - the SDO MF is $1055.04 and 2 x $129 S-S trades= $1313.04 (my math was off on previous posts, it is $1313, not $1353)


SMHarman said:


> 3) Your 2x 1Br = 2x 2Br requires instant exchange not an ongoing search so again not comparing apples to apples.


That's not necessarily so as I had an ongoing search filled with a 2 br WKORV. I'm not sure that it matters as previous bulk deposits have been anywhere from 5-18 months in advance, earlier than you can book with SO. Look at the research I posted from previous sightings.


SMHarman said:


> 4) On an apples to apples comparison the SO will get you 13 nights in WPORV 1Br vs 14 nights with the II trades.


looking at previous bulk deposits, the majority are 2 br so getting them does not seem to be that difficult


SMHarman said:


> 5) I can book and confirm my SO trade 8 months out and then move on to securing air.  That is less likely to happen with an II trade.





Quadmaniac said:


> I looked at the previous 3 years of bulk deposits and it looked like getting two weeks in January was not that difficult. Proof is in the pudding.
> 
> Post by rickandcindy23 July 31, 2012, 05:39 AM advised of Jan-Mar and Sept-Dec 13 availability with most of January available continuously till early Mar. 6-18 months in advance
> 
> ...





SMHarman said:


> 6) I can use SO to book into WSJ and HRA and WKORV (/N).  An II trade to one of those (especially the first two) is highly unlikely (those are buy where (and when) you want to go resorts)
> 7) You are using a straight SO>SO comparison.  I could use my 2Br to book WLR in Jan for 13 days with SO.  If I wanted to go for longer I could use my WKV 148 SO for about 3.5 weeks in a 1Br there.


But my only goal is WKORV and Bill's only goal was WPORV and possibly Avon. I've said this from the beginning, I don't doubt that WKV has its benefits with SO, but the question is do you NEED them to accomplish your specific goal ? Neither mine nor Bill's goal was to book WSJ, HRA, if it was then we would need to consider it, but since it is not, it is not a benefit we will use. WLR is an easy trade and you do not need WKV to do that, but again it is not my goal, so why would it be a benefit to me ?


SMHarman said:


> 8)  With kids in school I believe my ability to get a school vacation week is greater than with an II trade.  Bill talked of his flexible travel schedule, others of us don't
> 9)  WKV is a resort people really want to go to.  Look at the TUG resort ratings, It's #1 http://tug2.com/RnR/ResortsGrid.aspx?TOP10=true&ResortName=Starwood WKV is a desirable trade into during the Platinum Plus season.



Absolutely IF you need school vacation. I don't and neither does Bill - so again the solution must be directed to what the needs are. Neither needs those dates, so what benefit does it give us when we would not use it ? I have no desire to go to WKV or SDO - no point to this "benefit". I don't doubt that WKV is a nice resort, there are nice resorts all around the world but they are of no use to me if I have no desire to go there.


SMHarman said:


> 10)  WKV (and probably SDO) is self financing.  You can rent the small 1Br for over $1300 in the spring and then use the large 1Br or the SO to have a week vacation paid for by the rental of the small side.  In fact, if I took the 1Br Rental to be $1600 in my pocket, the $300 difference equates to a 1.6% interest rate which is better than the 0.1% I get in my savings account, and possibly, just possibly, if all else remains the same (using your assumptions) I might just end up with a capital gain on selling WKV in the future.


 You might but you never know what it might sell for in the future either. With SDO and the math, even if I had to pay to give it away of 1 yr MF, with the trades I would have, it more than makes up for any "losses" I may face in the future. I am not worried about whatever I get, where as that is not the case for WKV, you invested a lot and would like to get a lot of that back. Chances of you making money on the sale of a timeshare is pretty slim as the number of people losing money on selling one far exceeds the number making money on selling it down the road. This is looking at timeshares as whole. I have not seen an over rise in the resale prices (lately there has been a slight uptick) but generally over 30 years it has gone down.


SMHarman said:


> So there is pure math and applied math.  In the real world this is not always down to $/c but the when can play pretty heavily.  While it is 8 in the list below, that was a key reason I went with WKV.
> 
> Now my fuzzy math for 2014 is that my 2Br in WKV (MF 1300 / Rental 2600) - and some rolled SO, got me 8 days in HRA (MF 2950 / Rental $3600 (7d)).   I'm happy with that trade.  I think that is a trade I would not have got in II and thats $1k toward the purchase price (or is it $2300 to the purchase price?  At $2300 to the purchase price thats 8 years until the purchase price is covered by great exchanges.



If you are using WKV in the fashion you are going to these other resorts that are hard to trade into, it makes sense, BUT that was not what the OP asked or described as his goal. His goal was WPORV that is why I am constantly going back to the original basis of his needs. ADDRESS his needs, not yours or mine. I am not taking anything away from WKV or saying that it is a BAD purchase, but for Bill's requests and also for what I used mine Look at it for what is needed. Once again, we do not need a rocket ship to go around the corner. Having SO means nothing if you are not going to use them. The solution must meet the needs, SDO fills the needs and so does WKV but just at a higher cost basis with more options. How much are these "more options worth" if you will never use them ? Zero to me and so why would I spend $18000 to get the "benefits" of WKV that would not be used ?


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## jarta (Aug 13, 2013)

> Great insight into your mind.


   As the posts on this thread are into yours.   Salty


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> We have and will continue to pay discounted Starwood rates (hopefully not as frequently as in the past), so my analysis makes sense for us and others like us.  But as I noted, you still recoup WKV cost in a reasonable amount of time even if you use rental rates.  I'm quite happy with our strategy/analysis; you seem to be happy with yours as well.



So 14 years seems reasonable in my analysis and 8 years on the other one as a best case scenario ? That does not seem like a reasonable amount of time to me, but to each their own.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

jarta said:


> As the posts on this thread are into yours.   Salty



Yes I am able to debate without putting people down personally by calling them a parasite and names and admit when I have missed something or wrong. I do not know everything as you do and I try to at least keep some sort of humility in my posts rather than declaring everyone is below me in my posts. I try to encourage people because if I can do it, anyone can. I post my successful trades to boost people's confidence in these great traders and this is possible for them too. I have no special advantage, access or skills above anyone else, maybe just a little OCD lol.

I am able to READ and comprehend posts before running my mouth off on something I missed the boat on completely. I am willing to do research to ensure that I am basing my opinion on fact not what I think it should be. I think that my posts contribute to the board rather than cause huge conflict every time I post. Every post is not an argument or judgement coming from the supreme court judges. 

I do not take "ranking" according to how long someone has been on the board. Experience does not ALWAYS mean someone is more knowledgeable. There will always be new ideas. I used to be a computer whiz kid as a teenager and I have way more experience using computers than teenagers now, but do they know the internet, apps and electronics better than I do - damn right they do! I used to fix and repair computers, can I do it now ? Not as well. So never discount someone just because they "have less experience"

Take a look at poker - Doyle Brunson is the grandfather of poker - he came up in the day and wrote 2 books on poker. He is a 2 time World Series of Poker Main Event Bracelet winner in 76 and 77. He is a great poker player, but who are winning all the WSOP Main Events in the past 20 years ? Younger and younger players, some as young as 21 such as Joe Cada. So in your view this 21 year old had no business playing against people like Brunson and should heel to his experience ? Well Brunson did not come up on top of the final table or tournament. That does not take away from his greatness - but do consider less "experienced" may have valid experience as well.

I have my moments too when I get upset, but you're in your own ball park sir! No one person knows everything, except maybe you, I certainly don't nor do I claim to.


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## SMHarman (Aug 13, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> If you are using WKV in the fashion you are going to these other resorts that are hard to trade into, it makes sense, BUT that was not what the OP asked or described as his goal. His goal was WPORV that is why I am constantly going back to the original basis of his needs. ADDRESS his needs, not yours or mine. I am not taking anything away from WKV or saying that it is a BAD purchase, *but for Bill's requests* and also for what I used mine for SPECIFICALLY, SDO works perfect. IF AND WHEN I want to go to HRA and WSJ, then I might have to change what I own, but I am not going to buy something for a benefit I will not use, that makes no sense.


I responded with my thoughts on Bills request way back in post #4 of this thread.  Save you looking I'll quote myself here!



SMHarman said:


> Bill, I'm surprised DeniseM has not put her 2c in here.
> With your flexible schedule you are likely better to buy a near free starwood trader unit and use II to get to WPORV.  A 2Br LO would get you 2 weeks at WPORV, one for each week of the exchange.
> The usual recommended starwood trader is SDO due to the cheap cost to aquire a Gold Plus unit and reasonable (on the low end for Starwood) MF.  Also if you are not planning on using it, there is decent rental demand for the units in March for Spring Training.
> Alternately, you could consider one of the Avon TS (though if you were getting a winter unit that could be more expensive up front - the MF there are also not bad) and then you have the 12m booking window for Avon visits and then use it for II exchanges to WPORV.
> The II exchange of a 2Br LO would possibly get 2 x 2 Br for a week in WPORV if there is instant exchange.



So you can see, your and my recommendation to Bill are identical.  Mine also took into consideration the Avon alternatives but.  I did not recommend Bill buy a WKV.



Quadmaniac said:


> Instead of getting defensive about how great WKV is, which it is a great resort, look at it for what is needed. Once again, we do not need a rocket ship to go around the corner. Having SO means nothing if you are not going to use them. The solution must meet the needs, SDO fills the needs and so does WKV but just at a higher cost basis with more options. How much are these "more options worth" if you will never use them ? Zero to me and so why would I spend $18000 to get the "benefits" of WKV that would not be used ?



I'm not getting defensive here, just pointing out where I got value.  *I was responding to the question you asked.*  I did this analysis before I bought WKV and the alternate was buying an SDO. 



Quadmaniac said:


> Maybe you can help me with my math, as I can't seem to see where you are ahead or breaking even in a "couple of years". I don't understand, so please correct me by comparing apples to apples, not on different sized units or resorts. This would be basically the same for Bill's case when his primary is WPORV. 148K SO for 1 week in a 2br WPORV or 2 weeks using SDO right now. Let's not go off on tangents saying SO can be used for this and that, just focus on the original goal WPORV as that was the PRIMARY goal for getting another timeshare, not any other.
> 
> ASSUMPTIONS : All conditions remain the same as they are now - no increase in MF or rent (for easy math), Staroptions do not change and bulk deposits do not change. As we have not seen any indication of any change, we are basing it on current conditions as that is all we know at this point.



And as you said all conditions remain the same as they are now.  So to that point there is an active resale market where I can resel the $18k interest in WKV.  I admit my analysis was not just on WPORV but by this point when Bill had already said in post #15



Bill4728 said:


> Thank You all for your imput about my idea.
> 
> DW & I talked and decided that we have enough TS right now.  Since we are so flexible,  we can trade in with our good traders  and also can go to the Marriott TS on those islands with our Marriott TS.
> 
> ...



This whole thread has been tangential to the original request since then!

Next up for me would be a ski week, though that comes with a whole set of other considerations (east coast and save the air for 4 but east coast conditions) west coast (where), still SVO?  Is a West Westin Riverfront or Sheraton Steamboat ski week going to appear on the market at a reasonable price?  If so, when, etc...

Seems most contributors to the whole of TUG are focussed on sun not ski.  Though a couple of posters screen names give away their passion.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> "Discounted Starwood rates". This is the issue with fuzzy variable confusing timeshare purchase justification math posts. Everyone has a different basis of value for the time utilized.
> 
> Personally, I don't think using your method is realistic unless you were willing to spend the same amount each year for the rental. If you did this, then it makes a lot of sense to you. But, it may not make a lot of sense to others since that travel pattern/expense isn't realistic for them.
> 
> ...



You put it very well Ken! My thoughts exactly. Even though Ken owns one and I don't, we are on the same page on WKV math. If you needs requires it to get what you want, then perfect get one.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> I'm not getting defensive here, just pointing out where I got value.  *I was responding to the question you asked.*  I did this analysis before I bought WKV and the alternate was buying an SDO.



Sorry that was a poor choice of words on my part, my apologies, it was not defensive. I think it is jarta that has me riled if anything lol. Sorry if I misunderstood your the reasoning behind your post. I did see that you were suggesting the same. I removed that part of my post as it was not right when I went back to review it again. Thank you for pointing that out and I am sorry if I have offended you at all, it was not intentional.

Thanks


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## LisaRex (Aug 13, 2013)

I think we successfully scared Bill away from Starwood ownership. 

Another one saved!  :hysterical:


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## DeniseM (Aug 13, 2013)

OK - No more nasty posts.  If you can't be civil - go elsewhere!


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## Ken555 (Aug 13, 2013)

So... How about those Dodgers?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Beefnot (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> Forget it.... You're not going to convince him...I'll return to an earlier statement 'the market drives/dictates price/value'. If WKV wasn't worth more, it wouldn't be valued more in the marketplace, plain and simple.  It is amazing that some people think they are getting something of equal or better value when they pay significantly less for it.  There ARE reasons you're paying thousands more for WKV and those have been well articulated in this thread!



There may be plenty of valuable reasons to purchase WKV, but as has been hammered at over and over again, most of those values are beside the point wi respect to OP's traveling objectives.  One could purchase a 2br ocean front WKORV for $25k or whatever it is going for, but citing its value has little bearing on the debate at hand. Stay focused.


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## momeason (Aug 13, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Many, if not most or all, of those same very good trades, 1 for 2, can be gotten with SDO as well.  If flexibility in number of days and across SVN is a priority, then SOs may be the most sensible move.  If the only priorities are getting to WKORV/WPORV for a week or two consecutively and ability to get rid of the TS if the time arose, then one would be hard pressed to overlook SDO as the most efficient way to do this.



I agree. I have already picked up 3 great trades in one year and my SDO cost less than $1000 and included a year's free usage. I am confident I could get rid of it. heck, I sold a Wyndham Royal Vista for $1000. I am confident I can dispose of SDO if desired. I am patient like that. IT took me 6 months to sell my Wyndham but I did at asking price. I know I have already received great benefit. I traded a 1 bedroom for a 2 bedroom at WKV. All of my trades so far have been upgrades. I am very happy with my SDO. I, however, do not have my heart set on Hawaii. I think I will be able to get it. I am always flexible on my travel date and I have always had my requests filled. 
If you want to travel peak and are not flexible, maybe you can justify spending a lot for Staroptions. Not for me. I love a bargain!


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 13, 2013)

lizap said:


> Forget it.... You're not going to convince him...I'll return to an earlier statement 'the market drives/dictates price/value'. If WKV wasn't worth more, it wouldn't be valued more in the marketplace, plain and simple.  It is amazing that some people think they are getting something of equal or better value when they pay significantly less for it.  There ARE reasons you're paying thousands more for WKV and those have been well articulated in this thread!



No one is debating the VALUE of WKV on the market, the price is the price. Just as no one is complaining about the price of WKORV or WPORV, the market price is the market price. No one is arguing that WKV is not a great resort. Do all of these resorts have value ? Of course they do, but you are not listening to what has been asked all along, getting to WPORV. If you need it to do other things like get into hard to trade places like WSJ and HRA, then maybe WKV is a better alternative, but that is not what was asked. Stay on track rather than citing all the irrevelant tangents that make no difference to the original question. We know you can stay individual days, other resorts, book 8 months ahead, etc etc - did he ask for that ? No !

That is the same as saying I need to buy the biggest fully loaded 4x4 crew cab to drive to the office three blocks away because it is the best, it has leather, DVD player, cruise, 4x4 etc so it looks great. Look at all the benefits, of course I am going to buy this 4x4 with all the bells and whistle. I can get to my work better in my fully loaded 4x4.

I can use your same fuzzy math and say that during the two weeks I have booked at the end of August at WKORV in a 2br is $1259 per night on the Starwood website is about $19,000 with taxes and fees. I paid $1475 to buy plus $1313.04 for MF and trade fees, so I am up about $16K+ after my first year so I am getting excellent value.  Subsequent years, I will make about $17700 every year I trade in WKORV so I am doing great with my SDO and rolling in all the money I saved!!!!!! If I have to pay someone $4000 to take it off my hands in the future, I've still made money!!!! :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## lizap (Aug 13, 2013)

I havn't attacked others personally on this thread as one as done.  Notice that you did not tell that person to stay focused. I suspect mine and others' comments regarding WKV have resonated with you.  Nuff said... 



Beefnot said:


> There may be plenty of valuable reasons to purchase WKV, but as has been hammered at over and over again, most of those values are beside the point wi respect to OP's traveling objectives.  One could purchase a 2br ocean front WKORV for $25k or whatever it is going for, but citing its value has little bearing on the debate at hand. Stay focused.


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## Beefnot (Aug 14, 2013)

lizap said:


> I havn't attacked others personally on this thread as one as done.  Notice that you did not tell that person to stay focused. I suspect mine and others' comments regarding WKV have resonated with you.  Nuff said...



I found Quad to be very focused on the topic. I was not placing any judgment on methods for making one's point, just the content of the point made, so no need for me to tell him to stay focused.  I do not own any Starwood properties for the record, so I have zero dog in the fight. If you are familiar with me on TUG, you know that I challenge conventional wisdom. I accept nothing at face value.  Too much of what often gets espoused becomes collective "knowledge", not because it is inherently true or factual, but only because many do not attempt to critically evaluate their perspectives

I have been an aggressive and avid learner of the timeshare game.  I have owned for less than two years but from what I can glean, I estimate that I know more than about 80% of TUGgers and now make more money off of timeshares than 90% of them.  Some of the learning has come through tireless searching and perusing, some from mistakes, and some from luck. Ultimately, it is experience.  There are several folks on TUG who have been in the game for under three years and are far more knowledgeable, either in depth about their respective timeshare systems or in breadth of timesharing in general or both, than most. Don't knock us because you see a registration date of 2011 or 2012 beneath our user name.


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## lizap (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks for your comments/explanation.



Beefnot said:


> I found Quad to be very focused on the topic. I was not placing any judgment on methods for making one's point, just the content of the point made, so no need for me to tell him to stay focused.  I do not own any Starwood properties for the record, so I have zero dog in the fight. If you are familiar with me on TUG, you know that I challenge conventional wisdom. I accept nothing at face value.  Too much of what often gets espoused becomes collective "knowledge", not because it is inherently true or factual, but only because many do not attempt to critically evaluate their perspectives
> 
> I have been an aggressive and avid learner of the timeshare game.  I have owned for less than two years but from what I can glean, I estimate that I know more than about 80% of TUGgers and now make more money off of timeshares than 90% of them.  Some of the learning has come through tireless searching and perusing, some from mistakes, and some from luck. Ultimately, it is experience.  There are several folks on TUG who have been in the game for under three years and are far more knowledgeable, either in depth about their respective timeshare systems or in breadth of timesharing in general or both, than most. Don't knock us because you see a registration date of 2011 or 2012 beneath our user name.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 14, 2013)

lizap said:


> I havn't attacked others personally on this thread as one as done.  Notice that you did not tell that person to stay focused. I suspect mine and others' comments regarding WKV have resonated with you.  Nuff said...



The reason why is that I am only focusing on the question asked by Bill and his goal of getting to WPORV. You are focusing in on all the reasons to buy WKV and what great buy it is, what you can do with it, justifying your purchase. It does not matter what you are going to do with WKV, with all due respect, as Bill is not seeking use it the way you are/do. It is overkill for such an easy Starwood to Starwood trade. It's not all about you, it's about Bill's goals and desires, which is what I am focusing on. 

You're taking this as an attack on your purchase of WKV, which it isn't, so step back for a second to see the forest from the trees. WKV IS GREAT, ok ? It will work for Bill's need but at a higher cost.


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## lizap (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't think I have been personally attacked on this thread, but others have.  Why can't we have an intelligent discussion of ideas, (realizing there is merit to others' ideas even though they may differ from our own) without attacking others?  That's one thing that makes this forum so unique.  In this case, people have different assumptions, strategies, etc...there is diversity of opinion.  One side doesn't have to be right and the other wrong.  Right is individual specific..  Although I might not agree with everything that has been said in this thread, I have learned from those with different views and appreciate their perspectives.


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> There may be plenty of valuable reasons to purchase WKV, but as has been hammered at over and over again, most of those values are beside the point wi respect to OP's traveling objectives.  One could purchase a 2br ocean front WKORV for $25k or whatever it is going for, but citing its value has little bearing on the debate at hand. Stay focused.


Why is this thread required to stay focused when every other thread on the boards does not.  Are you now the off-topic police?  I thought TUG was not as heavily moderated as that 
This thread lost its focus when Bill checked in and out on post 15 saying he was not planning to pursue an SVO purchase.  Should the thread have been locked at that point? 


Quadmaniac said:


> I can use your same fuzzy math and say that during the two weeks I have booked at the end of August at WKORV in a 2br is $1259 per night on the Starwood website is about $19,000 with taxes and fees. I paid $1475 to buy plus $1313.04 for MF and trade fees, so I am up about $16K+ after my first year so I am getting excellent value.  Subsequent years, I will make about $17700 every year I trade in WKORV so I am doing great with my SDO and rolling in all the money I saved!!!!!! If I have to pay someone $4000 to take it off my hands in the future, I've still made money!!!! :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


You make a valid point here.  I know I would not be writing the $17k check, or the $8k check to Atlantis.com  , however I would consider writing the $3600 check to another owner.  While I referred to my math as fuzzy it is only because the math is based on personal judgement variables not hard facts.


Beefnot said:


> I found Quad to be very focused on the topic. I was not placing any judgment on methods for making one's point, just the content of the point made, so no need for me to tell him to stay focused.  [snip]
> 
> I have been an aggressive and avid learner of the timeshare game.  I have owned for less than two years but from what I can glean, I estimate that I know more than about 80% of TUGgers and now make more money off of timeshares than 90% of them.  [snip]  Don't knock us because you see a registration date of 2011 or 2012 beneath our user name.


As was I in post #4 but anti post #15 all bets were off as Bill / OP had got their value from the thread. 
How do I fit in with the 2013 join date :ignore:


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## jarta (Aug 14, 2013)

> This thread lost its focus when Bill checked in and out on post 15 saying he was not planning to pursue an SVO purchase. Should the thread have been locked at that point?



No, but the money calculations could have ended.  Bill did not make his decision based merely on money.  He decided he could use his other traders to get to WPOPRV.



> DW & I talked and decided that we have enough TS right now. Since we are so flexible, we can trade in with our good traders and also can go to the Marriott TS on those islands with our Marriott TS.



The argument surged forward without a purpose.  Some saying the money calculation was not the be-all and end-all for them.  Others insisting it's always the only thing that matters.

Talk among yourselves.  Boring!   :zzz:   Salty


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 14, 2013)

jarta said:


> No, but the money calculations could have ended.  Bill did not make his decision based merely on money.  He decided he could use his other traders to get to WPOPRV.
> 
> The argument surged forward without a purpose.  Some saying the money calculation was not the be-all and end-all for them.  Others insisting it's always the only thing that matters.
> 
> Talk among yourselves.  Boring!   :zzz:   Salty



The only reason it was boring to you is because everything you were basing your points on was wrong and you were shot down completely. You inserted your needs instead of the OP's request assuming it was one and the same. Once that was done you had nothing to come back on as you inserted your foot in your mouth especially after arrogantly telling me to go back to read the first post when it was you who needed to do that and resorting to name calling when you were called out on your blunder to deflect your embarrassment.

I've seen you go at it with DeniseM relentlessly to defend your point of view previously numerous times, so I don't think you should be preaching about the thread being boring and endless arguing as that seems to be your thing.

You can continue to base your judgements on your supreme knowledge while everyone else will just take an objective factual look at the issues rather than making it personal as you have.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 14, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> Why is this thread required to stay focused when every other thread on the boards does not.  Are you now the off-topic police?  I thought TUG was not as heavily moderated as that
> This thread lost its focus when Bill checked in and out on post 15 saying he was not planning to pursue an SVO purchase.  Should the thread have been locked at that point?



I think the point was that the tangents, while interesting, is well known but not relevant to the OP's request. We were not debating the validity of WKV as a resort or owning it, as without a doubt it is outstanding if you need it for a specific need that is not attainable otherwise. But replies by some other posters became just that and the basis of their arguments were all subjective assumptions of breaking even / value rather than objective and did not make as much sense when you challenged their assumptions by breaking it down to actual costs as that was their crutch in the debate. They could not justify their point based on this so then started to rattle off other benefits that had nothing to do with the goal at hand. While valid other benefits, it had very little value in helping the OP.


SMHarman said:


> You make a valid point here.  I know I would not be writing the $17k check, or the $8k check to Atlantis.com  , however I would consider writing the $3600 check to another owner.  While I referred to my math as fuzzy it is only because the math is based on personal judgement variables not hard facts.


I would too, as such I used reasonable market prices that are readily available with a bit of searching rather than use the extremes of full retail as very few people would pay that price. 


SMHarman said:


> As was I in post #4 but anti post #15 all bets were off as Bill / OP had got their value from the thread.
> How do I fit in with the 2013 join date :ignore:



Very true. Since you joined in 2013, you are behind me as an ignoramus according to jarta and should probably not voice your opinion in his presence as you have even less credibility :hysterical:. Not sure how old we need to be to have a credible opinion


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## lizap (Aug 14, 2013)

Guess he didn't read my post (or care).


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 14, 2013)

lizap said:


> Guess he didn't read my post (or care).



Um, you're at the absolute back of the line behind SMHarman, so you should maybe hide ....that was a joke just in case you missed it


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## PamMo (Aug 14, 2013)

Seriously? Is there such a thing as a long TUG thread that stays on topic? :hysterical::rofl:

This one got off track right away, didn't it? Bill asked specifically about pricing for an 81K SO VOI, and off we went! The mandatory vs non-mandatory resort purchase debate is a Pavlovian response here. I enjoy reading the different ways people make timesharing work for them. I'm always learning something new. Not so enjoyable when it turns personal, though.

How about we all use our SO's and II traders to book some villas in Maui and get together for drinks at the pool? Maybe then we can settle it once and for all!!! ;-)


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## tomandrobin (Aug 14, 2013)

PamMo said:


> Seriously? Is there such a thing as a long TUG thread that stays on topic? :hysterical::rofl:
> 
> This one got off track right away, didn't it? Bill asked specifically about pricing for an 81K SO VOI, and off we went! The mandatory vs non-mandatory resort purchase debate is a Pavlovian response here. I enjoy reading the different ways people make timesharing work for them. I'm always learning something new. Not so enjoyable when it turns personal, though.



The one thing this thread shows is that there are a lot of different strategies and paths to get the same result. 

What works for me, certainly will work for the OP....but my ownership weeks serve a broader purpose then a one trick (or two) pony. And I think that is where the "SO" owners are posting from.....perspective wise. 

SDO is a very good trader, no doubt. The WKV owners are pretty much in agreement, but are saying "hey, you can have more if.........." 

Neither way is wrong and until you use the timeshare for 5-10 years and then sell/dump them, all this talk is just speculative. What if this and what if that.....and so on.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree - it is difficult to discuss a particular SVO TS purchase strategy without comparison across the system - otherwise it would be an injustice to the discussion.  And of course, as often mentioned, each individuals vacation needs are unique.

Bill asked about WPORV - and I was close to telling him to buy resale there, but expected to get slammed by all the SDO-fans.  But, as I have written, if location is important - as I feel is the case with WPORV and others - then it is best to own there in order to get one of the premier locations.

Also - someone asked about WKV's ROI - and I gave my real-life experience (renting, SVN, and Home Resort usage) over 5 years - versus some theorhetical numbers game (aka fuzzy math).


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> Also - someone asked about WKV's ROI - and I gave my real-life experience (renting, SVN, and Home Resort usage) over 5 years - versus some theorhetical numbers game (aka fuzzy math).


Thanks for that - it backed up my 8-10 year payoff theory.


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