# Marriott  points no value: resale



## 1965 (Jan 1, 2012)

pls advise which of these statements are not correct based on informatin available as of Jan 1,2012

1:3500 MVC points wil cost you $38,290

2: 3500 MVC poitns will have annual dues of $1435

3: if I buy 3500 MVC points as resale
A:  i have to pay the buyer a certain dollar amount per point, fully negotiable buyer and seller, on open market.
B:  Incredible high by any previous standard MVC Resort Transfer fee is now being charged.

4:  The 3500 MVC points bought as resale can only be used at 59 days out.

if the (4) statemetns are correct, you could not give me those 3500 MVC points thru resale purchase.

thanks for your help


----------



## m61376 (Jan 1, 2012)

What is really a big question mark is 3b and 4, BUT they may very well be correct. I agree with your point of not buying such limited use points and obligating myself perpetually to the MF's on them. Moreover, like many others here, I would be wary of purchasing points directly that there may be no real resale recourse should I need/want to dispose of them.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler (Jan 1, 2012)

1965 said:


> pls advise which of these statements are not correct based on informatin available as of Jan 1,2012
> 
> 1:3500 MVC points wil cost you $38,290
> 
> ...







Just a comment;  I would have thought that you may have been far better off holding on to your Platinum Desert Springs week and enrolling it into the points program to obtain the points you're looking to buy...

You're far better off converting weeks into points than buying points outright.




.


----------



## 1965 (Jan 1, 2012)

Time Traveler:  I want nothng to do with Marriott Vacation club any more!
I just am trying to learn in this thread from others, for my own self eductation reasons


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 1, 2012)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Just a comment;  I would have thought that you may have been far better off holding on to your Platinum Desert Springs week and enrolling it into the points program to obtain the points you're looking to buy...
> 
> You're far better off converting weeks into points than buying points outright
> .



I agree, I think enrolling legacy weeks is a far better option than buying trust points, retail or resale. In most cases, the MF per point on a platinum legacy week is less than those on trust points.


----------



## Omken (Jan 2, 2012)

*I posted this on another thread.......*

I looked into purchasing 5000 points listed for sale and found out the following:

1. Closing costs $525
2. Transfer fee $4,000
3. Marriott representative told me that buyers of 3rd party Vacation Points would be limited to only 60 days advance for making reservations.

So....... The way I read this is that Marriott claims that they have first right of refusal on resales but first you need to get an offer and and they will make that decision when the title company submits the transfer request. With the limitations that they impose, there will be very little demand for 3rd party buyers, which if there are any offers it will be so low that Marriott will repurchase your investment at less than 50% of what you initially invested. 

Also, does anyone know at what point Marriott has to stop selling points? What a great deal for them, keep selling Vacation Points which would limit availability, and at the same time control the resale market so that you are forced to sell to them at a substantial loss. 

Am I missing something or is this the real deal? I am looking to purchase but unless I am looking to buy without ever wanting to sell, and unless Marriott has some limitation on how much they can sell to control the availability, this is not feeling like a sound investment. 

Please let me know if I am overlooking something, as this is all new to me!


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2012)

Omken said:


> 3. Marriott representative told me that buyers of 3rd party Vacation Points would be limited to only 60 days advance for making reservations.



I am not sure how accurate the 60 day limitation is. While this is a provision in the exchange company documents, it is understood that resale points can't be enrolled in the exchange company. So this provision wouldn't apply. I also don't understand how they can limit the ownership reservation rights of an owner. The resale points owner should have the same rights as every other trust points owner to reserve trust inventory. In the same way that a resale weeks owner has the same rights as a direct weeks owner has to make a home resort reservation.

I will have to look through the trust point sales documents to see if I can uncover more details on this.


----------



## bogey21 (Jan 2, 2012)

Omken said:


> I looked into purchasing 5000 points listed for sale and found out the following:
> 
> 1. Closing costs $525
> 2. Transfer fee $4,000
> 3. Marriott representative told me that buyers of 3rd party Vacation Points would be limited to only 60 days advance for making reservations.



If true, this is nuts.  If not true, someone please post the truth.

George


----------



## Stefa (Jan 2, 2012)

Omken said:


> Also, does anyone know at what point Marriott has to stop selling points? What a great deal for them, keep selling Vacation Points which would limit availability, and at the same time control the resale market so that you are forced to sell to them at a substantial loss.



They cannot sell points indefinitely.  There is a fixed number of points based on the inventory that was put into the points system when DC started.  The only way to add points to the system is through the addition of new weeks either through the acquisition of legacy weeks or the development of new properties.

However, by limiting resales they have essentially given themselves an ongoing supply of points as owners will be forced to simply walk away since there is no other way to get out.


----------



## jont (Jan 2, 2012)

Stefa said:


> They cannot sell points indefinitely.  There is a fixed number of points based on the inventory that was put into the points system when DC started.  The only way to add points to the system is through the addition of new weeks either through the acquisition of legacy weeks or the development of new properties.
> 
> However, by limiting resales they have essentially given themselves an ongoing supply of points as owners will be forced to simply walk away since there is no other way to get out.



Exactly! Marriott wants to sell their points without any competition from the resale market. Resale points outside of Marriott will always have excessive restrictions.


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 2, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how accurate the 60 day limitation is. While this is a provision in the exchange company documents, it is understood that resale points can't be enrolled in the exchange company. So this provision wouldn't apply. I also don't understand how they can limit the ownership reservation rights of an owner. The resale points owner should have the same rights as every other trust points owner to reserve trust inventory. In the same way that a resale weeks owner has the same rights as a direct weeks owner has to make a home resort reservation.
> 
> I will have to look through the trust point sales documents to see if I can uncover more details on this.



Take a look at Schedule "2" of the document titled 

"EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM"


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2012)

windje2000 said:


> Take a look at Schedule "2" of the document titled
> 
> "EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM"



I agree that there is a provision there that limits reservations to 60 days for "Members who do not pay the initiation fee for a transferred Interest." However, this document relates specifically to making a reservation through the exchange company. A trust point owner has other ownership rights and in cases where they want to make reservations of trust inventory, they wouldn't be bound to the exchange company procedures.


----------



## kjd (Jan 2, 2012)

Those provisions will continue to exist until Marriott is unable to sell points to new buyers.  If prospective buyers become leery of purchasing points because of a lack of a resale market Marriott will change the rules.  Simple as that.  They are in control and presently strangling the poor resale buyers right now.  It's all about money.


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 2, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I agree that there is a provision there that limits reservations to 60 days for "Members who do not pay the initiation fee for a transferred Interest." However, this document relates specifically to making a reservation through the exchange company. A trust point owner has other ownership rights and in cases where they want to make reservations of trust inventory, they wouldn't be bound to the exchange company procedures.



The same text is repeated in the MultiState Public Offering Document ("POS") in regards to Trust Owners



> *Part III.  MULTISTATE PUBLIC OFFERING STATEMENT TEXT*
> 
> *Section 4. Priority Reservation Features *
> 
> *Subsection e. Open Reservation Period*


  (See page 10 of the doc; page 33 of the pdf file.  I can't copy and paste because the pdf consists of images of each page.)  

If you don't have the POS (I know what you're thinking, but it is Mariott's acronym for the Public Offering Statement) PM me and I can email it to you.  The file size is 20 meg.

Or if you are planning a TS stay, ask a saleperson for the Points Documents CD-ROM.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2012)

I think you already provided me with the document as I was looking through this document. Here is the provision relating to the sale and transfer of trust points. Lets chew on this. This is from page 43 of the POS document you are referring to.

I was able to capture the text using an online OCR tool. So there may be some errors due to the OCR tool not accurately capturing at 100% accuracy.

_*11. Upon the Sale, Transfer, Conveyance or Lease of an Interestin a Multisite Timeshare Plan.

The sale, lease, or transfer of interests in this multisite timeshare plan is restricted or controlled.*

Other than a conveyance of all of a Beneficiary's Interests, no Beneficiary, other than Developer, and subject to Section 4.2 of the Trust Agreement, shall voluntarily sell, transfer, assign, or hypothecate any number of Interests, the sale, transfer, assignment, or hypothecation of which will result in the Beneficiary or any other Beneficiary owning less than a Base Interest. Except as otherwise set forth in the Trust Agreement and the Bylaws, no Base Interest may be subdivided by any Beneficiary other than Developer. The Association Delegee is not required to accept any reservation requests for a Use Period from a Beneficiary who owns less than a Base Interest at any time other than during the Open Reservation Period. The number of Interests comprising a Base Interest may in the future be modified by Developer in its sole discretion.

Subject to Developer's right of first refusal and leasing restrictions as described below, the right of a Beneficiary to sell, transfer, assign or hypothecate the Beneficiary's Interest will not be subject to the approval of Developer, Trustee, or the Association. Accordingly, a proper transfer or conveyance of such Interest will not require the written approval of Developer, Trustee, or the Association. However, in accordance with the Bylaws and applicable Florida law, a Beneficiary is required to notify Developer, the Association, and Trustee of any change in information kept in the Registry by Trustee upon the transfer or conveyance of an Interest, and for payment of any membership education fee required under the Trust Plan Documents. Until such written notice is received the seller of such Interest will remain liable for the payment of all Assessments, taxes, and other fees then due or which may later become due with relation to the Interest. Further, until payment of the member education fee is received, the owner of such Interests will not be entitled to use the Points associated with the Interest, and will not be entitled to reserve any Accommodations.

Upon the sale of an Interest, Program Manager may require the payment of an initiation fee. Until payment of the initiation fee is received (or waived by Program Manager), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to reserve any non-Trust Accommodations with the Points associated with such Interest(s) except during the Open Reservation Period; however, payment of the initiation fee will restore the ability to make reservations during the Priority 1 Period, the Priority 2 Period, and the Priority 3 Period. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from a Developer or an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to access all of the Exchange Benefits offered by Program Manager in its sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.

In consideration of the affirmative obligations of and benefits to all Beneficiaries provided by Developer under the Trust Agreement, when any Interest is offered for sale, Developer will have the exclusive option to purchase such Interest at the price and on the other terms of any bona fide offer made in writing to the Beneficiary at such time and submitted to Developer for verification. Each Beneficiary will notify Developer in writing of its intent to sell its Interest and provide Developer with a copy of the offer received. Such notice will include the full terms and conditions of the sale, and the full name and primary address of the prospective true buyer (as distinguished from agents and intermediaries). Notice of a Beneficiary's intent to sell will be sent to Developer at 6649 Westwood Boulevard, Orlando, Florida 32821-6090 or such other department or address as may be designated by Developer from time to time. Developer will have thirty (30) days after receipt of such notice to exercise its option to purchase the Interest at the same price and on the same monetary terms and conditions as the verified offer. If Developer does not notify the Beneficiary of its election to purchase the Interest within such thirty (30) day period, then the Beneficiary may sell the Interest to the subject bona fide offeror subject to the Trust Agreement and to all limitations set forth in the Trust Agreement, at a price not lower than that at which it was offered to eveloper. In addition, any permitted sale between a Beneficiary and a bona fide third party will be deemed to contain a provision requiring that any sums due to the Association as Assessments must be paid in full as a condition of closing of the sale. Should, however, such sale to a third party not be consummated within four (4) months after the date the offer is transmitted to Developer at the price and terms equal to or less favorable than those offered to Developer, the terms and limitations of Developer's right of first refusal will again be imposed on any sale by a Beneficiary. If Developer elects to purchase such Interest, the transaction will be consummated on the terms offered; provided, however, that Developer will have a minimum of thirty (30) days from the delivery of notice of Developer's election to exercise Developer's option to consummate the transaction. Developer may impose an administrative charge in connection with the waiver of this right of first refusal.

The right of a Beneficiary to lease or rent the Use Period(s) related to the Beneficiary's Interest (or enter into any other agreement relating to use of the Trust Property if not designated as a "lease") for periods of less than three (3) years shall not be subject to the approval of the Association; however, notice of such lease or rental of any Use Period must be delivered to the Association within five (5) days after the Beneficiary's agreement to lease or rent. Any leasing or rental agreements must set forth or will be deemed to have set forth an acknowledgment and consent on the part of the lessee-sublessee-tenant to use, occupy, and possess such Use Period and the Trust Property in conformance and compliance with the provisions of the Trust Agreement and the other Trust Plan Documents. In the event a Beneficiary fails to secure a written leasing or rental agreement, the Association shall have the right to require the lesseesublessee-tenant to execute an acknowledgment to use and occupy the rental or leased Use Period and the Trust Property in conformance with the Trust Agreement and the other Trust Plan Documents.

*The expectation of deriving any profit or gain should not be a consideration in the decision to purchase an Interest in the Trust.
Generally, a Beneficiary should expect substantial competition from Developer and no established resale market in the event a Beneficiary desires to resell an Interest.

Interests are offered for sale for personal use and enjoyment only, and the expectation of achieving capital appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including, but not limited to, any tax benefit, should not be a consideration in the decision to purchase.*

The Trust anticipates that the Trust will be treated as a partnership for federal income tax purposes and will, therefore, file annually a Form 1065 - U.S. Return of Partnership Income, to the extent the Trust determines it is required. Consequently, the trust's items of income, gain, loss, deduction and credit would flow through to, and be reflected on, each Beneficiary's individual income tax return. To assist the Beneficiary in properly reflecting these items, if any, on the Beneficiary's income tax return, the Trust will send to the Beneficiary, to the extent the Trust determines it is required, a summary of such Beneficiary's share of such items, if any, in the form of a Form 1065 Schedule K-1. Generally, distributions made to a Beneficiary (other than liquidating distributions), if any, will not affect a Beneficiary's distributive share of flow through income or loss from the Trust. The Beneficiaries acknowledge and agree that the Board will have the sole discretion and authority to make or revoke any tax elections on behalf of the Trust.

For income tax purposes only, the transfer of an Interest by the Developer to a Beneficiary will be characterized by the Developer and the Trust as the transfer by the Developer to such Beneficiary of: (1) the rights to use (in accordance with the Trust Plan Documents) all Trust Property held or to be held in the Trust for which a Notice of Use Rights has been or is delivered (the "Use Rights"); and (2) an economic interest in the portion of the Trust treated as a partnership for federal income tax purposes (the "Economic Rights"). The Economic Rights consist primarily of the right to receive cash distributions from the Trust in the event that any Trust Property (other than Restricted Use Property) held by the Trust is sold and the sales proceeds are not fully reinvested in other Trust Property for which a Notice of Use Rights has been or is delivered, as more particularly provided in the Trust Plan Documents. The purchase price paid by the Beneficiary to the Developer will be allocated between the Use Rights and the Economic Rights in such proportions as determined by the Developer. This allocation of purchase price will be used to determine the Beneficiary's initial tax basis in her or his Use Rights and the Beneficiary's initial tax basis in her or his Economic Rights.

The foregoing statements in this discussion are based upon current provisions of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended from time to time, existing and currently proposed Treasury Regulations, and existing administrative rulings and judicial decisions, all of which are subject to change, and such statements are only a general summary of certain federal income tax considerations that may be relevant to a prospective Beneficiary. The effect of existing federal income tax laws and the income tax laws of any applicable state or local taxing authority will vary with the particular circumstances of each Beneficiary.
With respect to federal, state, and local tax consequences of acquiring an Interest as they may relate to an individual Beneficiary, each Beneficiary should consult with and rely on her or his own professional tax advisor. In no event should the Trust, the Developer, or any of their respective affiliates, counsel, or any other professional advisors or counsel engaged by an of them, be considered as providing legal or tax advice or opinions or as guarantors of the tax consequences of ownership of any Interest acquired from the Developer. Beneficiaries should look to, and solely rely on, their own professional tax advisors with respect to the tax consequences of any Interest acquired from the Developer._


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2012)

windje2000 said:


> The same text is repeated in the MultiState Public Offering Document ("POS") in regards to Trust Owners
> 
> (See page 10 of the doc; page 33 of the pdf file.  I can't copy and paste because the pdf consists of images of each page.)
> 
> ...



Here is the OCR from the section you are referring to. I don't see anything restricting reservations to the 60 day open reservation period for owners of resale trust points.

_
*e. Open Reservation Period.* The Open Reservation Period is the period beginning sixty (60) days before the first day of a given unreserved Use Period during which Beneficiaries (for themselves, Family Members and/or Guests) or Association Delegee can reserve use of an Accommodation for the current Use Year, subject to the Call-in Calendar, on a space available, first-come, first-served subject to availability basis as set forth in the Reservation Procedures. Beneficiaries owning less than a Base Interest and Beneficiaries utilizing Points deposited in a Holding Account (as defined in the Reservation Procedures) shall only be permitted to make reservations for Use Periods during the Open Reservation Period. Except as otherwise provided in the Reservation Procedures, there is no minimum number of consecutive evenings required for Use Periods reserved during the Open Reservation Period; however, all reservations are subject to applicable minimum durations of stay for certain Markets or at certain Components as shown on the Point Schedule.

Beneficiaries may reserve a Use Period at any Component during the Open Reservation Period. Family Members and Guests may also stay in an Accommodation at any Component as Open Reservation Time, subject to availability; however, the sponsoring Beneficiary must make the reservations for such use. In no event shall Open Reservation Time be used for any commercial purpose (including but not limited to, the rental of an Accommodation reserved as Open Reservation Time). Beneficiaries who are determined, in the sole discretion of Association Delegee, to have violated this restriction on commercial use may be subject to penalties within the sole discretion of Association Delegee, including but not limited to, the loss of such Beneficiary's access to Open Reservation Time and cancellation of existing Open Reservation Time reservations.

During the Open Reservation Period, Association Delegee has the right to reserve available Use Periods for (i) the purposes of customer relations, public relations and employee relations; (ii) marketing, promoting, and sales of Interests, vacation ownership interests, programs, or vacation products at other resort condominiums or club resorts, or such other vacation ownership, multisite vacation ownership, and membership or exchange plans developed or marketed by Association Delegee or its affiliates from time to time; or (iii) the purpose of renting unreserved Use Periods to third parties.
_


----------



## equitax (Jan 2, 2012)

*When Marriott will have to stop selling points*

Shortly after the destinations program came out I posted on TUG what I had found Buried in the trust documents about MVCI reserving the right to charge up to 1.00$ usd per point for waiving ROFR. 

The long and short of this is that practically, MVCI will never run out of destinations points to sell. They will repossess enough points on defaults or will exercise rofr on the desperate. So those willing to buy resale will be buying restricted flexchange in esseence. 

I am sitting in a three bedroom at Marriott Surf Club while writing this. Rented from another owner. I use my foxrun and grande vistas to flexchange. When I want week 52 or 1 I pay the going rate and don't look back. Clearly the better option. I will still buy legacy weeks at Marriott's on the resale market, but I 
But won't buy points. 


Omken said:


> I looked into purchasing 5000 points listed for sale and found out the following:
> 
> 1. Closing costs $525
> 2. Transfer fee $4,000
> ...


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2012)

I think this may be the key paragraph along with my interpretation.



dioxide45 said:


> Upon the sale of an Interest, Program Manager may require the payment of an initiation fee. Until payment of the initiation fee is received (or waived by Program Manager), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to reserve any non-Trust Accommodations with the Points associated with such Interest(s)



I take this to mean the resale trust points owner won't be able to make reservations of exchange company inventory during priority periods 1, 2, and 3.



> except during the Open Reservation Period;



The resale trust point owner will be able reserve exchange company accommodations in the 60 day open reservation period without paying the initiation fee.



> however, payment of the initiation fee will restore the ability to make reservations during the Priority 1 Period, the Priority 2 Period, and the Priority 3 Period.



If they pay the initiation fee, they will have full rights to reserve exchange company accommodations during Priority Periods 1, 2 and 3.



> If the purchase of an Interest is not made from a Developer or an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to access all of the Exchange Benefits offered by Program Manager in its sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.



"Access all" is the term I am seeing. In my interpretation this would perhaps mean they can't access explorer collection or cruise benefits of the exchange company. Even if they pay the initiation fee.


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 3, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I think this may be the key paragraph along with my interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the cruise benefits and explorer collection are 'special benefits' and the term exchange benefits refers to the ability to reserve exchange co inventory.  See generally the lists of defined terms in several of the docs.

Having said that, I took another look at the documents.  That doc I was referring to is applicable to the exchange company.  My bad.

The Trust Points Reservation Procedures ("TPRP") doc appears on 157 - 178 of the pdf.

There's a Schedule 2 attached to this TPRP doc. which is virtually identical to the Schedule 2 of the Exchange Company doc.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a post discussing on the Trust Point side of the document because we as weeks owners were looking at what applied to us.  Moreover, it is very easy to confuse the rules of the exchange company with the rules associated with Trust Point Reservations.

Two items stood out.  

First, there is a 'member education fee' charged to new Trust Point owners.  I am assuming this is in addition to the ROFR fee.  Marriott reserves the right to charge any fee it wants for 'member education.'  That fee is waived for existing Trust point owners.  (See Section VI D. of TPRP)  


Second, the points are considered 'penalty box points' with respect to reserving Trust owned property if *ANY* initiation fees are not paid by the owner.  (Schedule 2 of TPRP)

That is interesting language, particularly in light of the fact that this document specifically states that the only transaction fee currently assessed by the Program Manager is the membership education fee. (Section IV G of TPRP)

So what initiation fee can language in Schedule 2 possibly be referring to?  It can only be referring to the initiation fee for joining the exchange company.  There simply are no other 'initiation' fees mentioned in the docs.

Moreover, the plain language of the bylaws of the MVC Trust Owners Association, Inc. Article XXVIII Section 2 makes it pretty clear that the exchange company and trust are akin to conjoined twins.  (See pdf file pages 103 - 145)

Last, Marriott has the right to prevent a resale purchaser from joining the exchange company.  If the resale purchaser can't join, the initiation fee won't be paid.

Resale points from a source other than an Approved Broker?  You can't join the exchange co.  

If you can't join the exchange co you can't pay the initiation fee.  

No initiation fee?  No exchange co reservations. 



> the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to reserve any non-Trust Accommodations with the Points associated with such Interest(s)



Unpaid initiation fee(s)?  The TPRP indicates clearly that your points are holding account points.

Are the points purchased resale (from anyone other than an approved broker) penalty box points?  

I wouldn't make any large bets that they are not.


----------



## pfrank4127 (Jan 4, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I think this may be the key paragraph along with my interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was reading this thread and saw this listing tonight on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260928105687?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

So do we think the "initiation fee" is what the seller is calling the MVC transfer fee for $2095?  Are the points free and clear then?


----------



## jont (Jan 4, 2012)

$2500 for free points you can only use 60 days out! No thanks.
Marriott will continue to keep tight restrictions until they have no more points to sell, which is never.


----------



## pfrank4127 (Jan 4, 2012)

jont said:


> $2500 for free points you can only use 60 days out! No thanks.
> Marriott will continue to keep tight restrictions until they have no more points to sell, which is never.



I was reading this thread differently.  If the buyer pays the $2500 then the points lose the restrictions....


----------



## jont (Jan 4, 2012)

Maybe I misunderstood


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 4, 2012)

pfrank4127 said:


> Was reading this thread and saw this listing tonight on eBay
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/260928105687?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
> 
> So do we think the "initiation fee" is what the seller is calling the MVC transfer fee for $2095?  Are the points free and clear then?



I'm curious as to how the MF on 1,000 points can be $575.  Thought the MF/pt currently amounts to $0.41.  That information is easy to obtain and/or verify.  

The $2,095 amount?  There's no way I know of to independently verify the $2,095 or the components thereof.

Accordingly, I have little confidence in the accuracy of any of the representations made by the seller in this listing.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 4, 2012)

This is the same seller of a 1,500-Point contract that was put on eBay twice.  We watched those auctions in a couple other threads here and here, and I don't think they ever answered questions from TUGgers/interested buyers as completely as we would have liked.  Certainly they didn't give the impression that they knew enough about what they were selling to inspire any confidence, not unless they've since learned the answers and are willing to give them now.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 4, 2012)

windje2000 said:


> I'm curious as to how the MF on 1,000 points can be $575.  Thought the MF/pt currently amounts to $0.41.  That information is easy to obtain and/or verify.
> 
> The $2,095 amount?  There's no way I know of to independently verify the $2,095 or the components thereof.
> 
> Accordingly, I have little confidence in the accuracy of any of the representations made by the seller in this listing.



I think they are adding the $165 DC fee in to the MF amount. $410+$165=$575.


----------



## thinze3 (Jan 4, 2012)

Why is the transfer fee so much higher than the last auction?

$2095 now for 1000 points vs $1595 then for 1500 points


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 5, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I think they are adding the $165 DC fee in to the MF amount. $410+$165=$575.



That's probably it, and inherently assumes they can join.


----------



## kjd (Jan 5, 2012)

What's wrong with someone paying an initiation fee to get to use the point system?  We all had to pay one albeit less, $695 or $1,995.  Marriott has created a cash machine for themselves and at the same time cleverly screwed the legacy owners.  Charging for nothing but the priviledge to do business with them, while always promising new resorts that are never to be built.  We resale buyers who are legacy owners got into this mess cheaper than those that will come after us.  That's about the only consolation we have.  The DC legacy owners do have a better situation than weeks owners that aren't enrolled.  There are some new advantages compared to what we've had but the initiation fee doesn't justify it.

As long as Marriott keeps up the level of service at their resorts my complaints are minor ones.  Even though they have killed the resale market for those wanting to sell, Marriott timeshares are still a good vacation situation as long as you use them.  If anyone is unhappy, they should sell, take their loss and move on.  That's why there's an Ebay.


----------



## jont (Jan 5, 2012)

kjd said:


> What's wrong with someone paying an initiation fee to get to use the point system?  We all had to pay one albeit less, $695 or $1,995.  Marriott has created a cash machine for themselves and at the same time cleverly screwed the legacy owners.  Charging for nothing but the priviledge to do business with them, while always promising new resorts that are never to be built.  We resale buyers who are legacy owners got into this mess cheaper than those that will come after us.  That's about the only consolation we have.  The DC legacy owners do have a better situation than weeks owners that aren't enrolled.  There are some new advantages compared to what we've had but the initiation fee doesn't justify it.
> 
> As long as Marriott keeps up the level of service at their resorts my complaints are minor ones.  Even though they have killed the resale market for those wanting to sell, Marriott timeshares are still a good vacation situation as long as you use them.  If anyone is unhappy, they should sell, take their loss and move on.  That's why there's an Ebay.



I see nothing wrong with paying an initiation fee for resale points, as long as those points have full priviliges. But why would marriott want to compete with resales of points when they are trying to sell them retail and have an almost endless supply?


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 6, 2012)

pfrank4127 said:


> Was reading this thread and saw this listing tonight on eBay
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/260928105687?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
> 
> So do we think the "initiation fee" is what the seller is calling the MVC transfer fee for $2095?  Are the points free and clear then?



Interesting/negative reviews about this eBay seller in this thread, thought it was worth noting because it's the only seller of resale DC Points that we've seen so far.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ebay bidding ended at $1.00 on this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260928105687


----------



## thinze3 (Jan 9, 2012)

*20 cents on the dollar - not bad*

I tried to get the seller to split the transfer fees with me to no avail.  Consequently, I wouldn't bid on it.  I did, however, get two emails from Marriott telling me the process and the fees involved.  There is also going to be an "education fee" that is not stated in the eBay listing.


----------



## windje2000 (Jan 9, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> I tried to get the seller to split the transfer fees with me to no avail.  Consequently, I wouldn't bid on it.  I did, however, get two emails from Marriott telling me the process and the fees involved.  There is also going to be an "education fee" that is not stated in the eBay listing.



The education fee is waived if you already own points.  

If you don't already own points, that fee can be anything Marriott wants in its sole judgement and discretion.


(See post 19 of this thread)


----------



## jont (Jan 9, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> I tried to get the seller to split the transfer fees with me to no avail.  Consequently, I wouldn't bid on it.  I did, however, get two emails from Marriott telling me the process and the fees involved.  There is also going to be an "education fee" that is not stated in the eBay listing.



Education fee? that's a good one. Who gets the education, Mariott?:hysterical:


----------



## thinze3 (Jan 9, 2012)

Yes. Here is the quoted from the email. If you "bought points from Marriott" you will not have to pay the fee.  Everyone else does. Even legacy members.



> The New owner will have to pay an education ($300 per owner) and initiation fee ($200 per BI with a $2000 minimum). And then they would have full access to the program.
> 
> If they only have enrolled weeks and then purchase BI's on the external market, they would have to pay the education fee.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 9, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> I tried to get the seller to split the transfer fees with me to no avail.  Consequently, I wouldn't bid on it.  I did, however, get two emails from Marriott telling me the process and the fees involved.  There is also going to be an "education fee" that is not stated in the eBay listing.



I wonder if there are non-legal ownership materials given to DC Points purchasers that explain the program in owner-friendly terms, and the "education fee" simply translates to the costs for those materials?  I have no idea, but direct purchasers of Weeks used to get several professionally-designed pamphlets and books that were pretty valuable when trying to figure out the whole program.  I still have and refer back often to the 3-ring binder "Owner Reference Guide" that we were given way back when.


----------



## tjkahn (Jan 9, 2012)

kjd said:


> We resale buyers who are legacy owners got into this mess cheaper than those that will come after us.  That's about the only consolation we have.  The DC legacy owners do have a better situation than weeks owners that aren't enrolled.  There are some new advantages compared to what we've had but the initiation fee doesn't justify it.



Hi, new TUG member here.  I've owned at Marriott Timber Lodge, 2 BR platinum ski since 2003.  I'm trying to evaluate what I should/need to do.  My week is worth 4,325 points, but I don't quite understand the statement above.  What is the big advantage of converting my week (or more accurately, what is the disadvantage to me if I don't).  I suppose if you lock off and exchange each year, you do save in fees ($165 vs. $75 lock-off, plus $79 - $99 for each domestic exchange, plus$59-$89 for interval membership).  The problem for existing owners that don't enroll would be if a large percentage of legacy owners do enroll, and II would not get their deposited inventory.  But it doesn't seem as though a large percentage of owners have convertated their legacy weeks, and with the exception of fee savings (which would take a while to make up given the $595 fee to convert), is there a compelling reason to deposit my week?  I've been reading threads for two days and despite all the information out there, I can't make a clear choice.  My gut tells me since Marriott wants everyone to convert, you shouldn't.


----------



## Davidr (Jan 9, 2012)

We did the tour in August at Oceana Palms.  The salesperson swore that Marriott would buy back your points at $0.60 on the dollar. :hysterical:  I didn't want to be rude so I didn't call her a liar to her face.


----------



## jimf41 (Jan 9, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> What is the big advantage of converting my week (or more accurately, what is the disadvantage to me if I don't).
> 
> But it doesn't seem as though a large percentage of owners have convertated their legacy weeks, and with the exception of fee savings (which would take a while to make up given the $595 fee to convert), is there a compelling reason to deposit my week?



The advantages and disadvantages vary for each of us and it mainly depends on how you use your week. Do you use it, trade it or rent it? If you use it I'd advise not to convert. If you trade it then I'd advise converting as you get a fairly high amount of points. I've never rented so I don't have any idea if that would be advantageous to you or not.

If your unit is a lockoff and you routinely lock it off and trade one or both of the units I think you'll get your money back pretty quickly so I would convert if that's what you do.

Right now you still get 800 one time use points that can be used for one year from the conversion date. That pretty much makes the $595 fee a wash.


----------



## catvag (Jan 10, 2012)

*Marriott not the company they used to be*

We own At Marriott in Kauai, Maui & Aruba and love our 4 independents much more.  I received no reminder to move 2011 Destination Points to 2012 by 6/30, and received misinformation from my vacation advisor.  All I can get is a non-Marriott trade through Interval, no help from upper management, no consideration for 20 years of ownership.  The new point system is a heavy handed sell, not all info, restrictions and dates disclosed during meetings, empty promises from advisors.  With no trust in this company, I plan to sell - or get out somehow - in 2014.  In his book, Mr. Marriott said the success of his company was due to the quality of its employees - not so much anymore!


----------



## timesharegirl101 (Jan 10, 2012)

*Converted weeks to Points, points will not transfer resale*

I work for a title company and timeshares re-seller and from our understanding according to Marriott any timeshare that have been converted to the MVC points, the points will not transfer on the resale market. They will be converted back to the original week, assuming that Marriott doesn't exercise it's ROFR. 

I also know someone who just went through training with Marriott and verfied this information, as well as telling me that if you buy a week resale and want to "upgrade" to point you have to wait 5 years. Although I am sure for the right price that could change. 

Marriott like Wyndham has become increasingly hard to deal with regarding resales and make it harder for owners to resell thier timeshares by putting unfavorable restrictions on the people who buy from the resale market.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler (Jan 10, 2012)

timesharegirl101 said:


> I work for a title company and timeshares re-seller and from our understanding according to Marriott any timeshare that have been converted to the MVC points, the points will not transfer on the resale market. They will be converted back to the original week, assuming that Marriott doesn't exercise it's ROFR.
> 
> I also know someone who just went through training with Marriott and verfied this information, as well as telling me that if you buy a week resale and want to "upgrade" to point you have to wait 5 years. Although I am sure for the right price that could change.
> 
> Marriott like Wyndham has become increasingly hard to deal with regarding resales and make it harder for owners to resell thier timeshares by putting unfavorable restrictions on the people who buy from the resale market.







Whoever said that the points would transfer in the resale market?   I think it's been made very clear that any private resale (i.e. other than Marriott) occurring after 6/20/2010 is ineligible for both Marriott Destination Club Points and Marriott Reward Points.




.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 10, 2012)

timesharegirl101 said:


> I work for a title company and timeshares re-seller and from our understanding according to Marriott any timeshare that have been converted to the MVC points, the points will not transfer on the resale market. They will be converted back to the original week, assuming that Marriott doesn't exercise it's ROFR.
> 
> I also know someone who just went through training with Marriott and verfied this information, as well as telling me that if you buy a week resale and want to "upgrade" to point you have to wait 5 years. Although I am sure for the right price that could change.
> 
> Marriott like Wyndham has become increasingly hard to deal with regarding resales and make it harder for owners to resell thier timeshares by putting unfavorable restrictions on the people who buy from the resale market.



If you own Marriott Weeks and enroll them in the new Destinations Club, you're not actually changing your original ownership at all.  Enrollment just means that you've gained another usage option, which is that you can elect on an annual basis to convert your Weeks to DC Points for use in the DC Exchange Company or the DC Collections.  (If your Weeks were purchased by you on the external market prior to enrollment you also gain the usage option to elect annually or EOY to convert your Weeks to Marriott Rewards Points.  Prior to the inception of the DC, this option did not transfer with an external resale.)  Enrollment by itself, and/or a conversion one year from Weeks usage to DC Points usage, does not constitute a permanent conversion of Weeks to DC Points for the life of your ownership.  It is correct that if you enroll your Weeks and then subsequently sell them, your enrollment in the DC system will not transfer with the sale.

As it stands now, the only resale Marriott Weeks that can be enrolled in the DC are those which were purchased prior to 6/20/10, or those which are purchased from the Marriott Resales office (but only if the buyer also purchases a DC Points package at the same time.)  All other resales purchased after 6/20/10 are NOT eligible to be enrolled in the DC.  Don't know where the "5 years" you've heard of is coming from but it's the first time such a thing has been reported to TUG, Marriott hasn't released an official statement that verifies it, and none of the governing docs for the program specifically support it.  (IOW, I wouldn't believe it.)

Purchasing and re-selling Marriott DC Points - the topic of this thread - is a totally different animal than enrolling and subsequently re-selling Marriott Weeks.  While I agree that the inception of the DC does further restrict usage of Weeks resales (along with the devaluation that appears to be a factor of DC Points resales,) as noted Marriott has always restricted external Weeks resales by not allowing the MRP-exchange option included with direct purchases to transfer to the new owner.  Of course we owners don't like to see resale devaluations but Marriott isn't exactly a new player in that game.


----------



## n777lt (Jan 10, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> If you own Marriott Weeks and enroll them in the new Destinations Club, you're not actually changing your original ownership at all.  Enrollment just means that you've gained another usage option, which is that you can elect on an annual basis to convert your Weeks to DC Points for use in the DC Exchange Company or the DC Collections.  (If your Weeks were purchased by you on the external market prior to enrollment you also gain the usage option to elect annually or EOY to convert your Weeks to Marriott Rewards Points.  Prior to the inception of the DC, this option did not transfer with an external resale.)  Enrollment by itself, and/or a conversion one year from Weeks usage to DC Points usage, does not constitute a permanent conversion of Weeks to DC Points for the life of your ownership.  It is correct that if you enroll your Weeks and then subsequently sell them, your enrollment in the DC system will not transfer with the sale.
> 
> As it stands now, the only resale Marriott Weeks that can be enrolled in the DC are those which were purchased prior to 6/20/10, or those which are purchased from the Marriott Resales office (but only if the buyer also purchases a DC Points package at the same time.)  All other resales purchased after 6/20/10 are NOT eligible to be enrolled in the DC.  Don't know where the "5 years" you've heard of is coming from but it's the first time such a thing has been reported to TUG, Marriott hasn't released an official statement that verifies it, and none of the governing docs for the program specifically support it.  (IOW, I wouldn't believe it.)
> 
> Purchasing and re-selling Marriott DC Points - the topic of this thread - is a totally different animal than enrolling and subsequently re-selling Marriott Weeks.  While I agree that the inception of the DC does further restrict usage of Weeks resales (along with the devaluation that appears to be a factor of DC Points resales,) as noted Marriott has always restricted external Weeks resales by not allowing the MRP-exchange option included with direct purchases to transfer to the new owner.  Of course we owners don't like to see resale devaluations but Marriott isn't exactly a new player in that game.



Thanks for taking the time to spell all this out! This post deserves its own sticky.


----------



## OutAndAbout (Jan 10, 2012)

Davidr said:


> We did the tour in August at Oceana Palms.  The salesperson swore that Marriott would buy back your points at $0.60 on the dollar. :hysterical:  I didn't want to be rude so I didn't call her a liar to her face.


I heard the same story, although after a long pause, added the caveat that the points wouldn't be bought back immediately because Marriott has to resell them first and it would take 8-10 months to resell them..


----------



## m61376 (Jan 11, 2012)

OutAndAbout said:


> I heard the same story, although after a long pause, added the caveat that the points wouldn't be bought back immediately because Marriott has to resell them first and it would take 8-10 months to resell them..



How fast would they back-track if asked to ut that in writing? :hysterical:


----------



## thinze3 (Jan 11, 2012)

catvag said:


> We own At Marriott in Kauai, Maui & Aruba and love our 4 independents much more.  I received no reminder to move 2011 Destination Points to 2012 by 6/30, and received misinformation from my vacation advisor.  All I can get is a non-Marriott trade through Interval, no help from upper management, no consideration for 20 years of ownership.  The new point system is a heavy handed sell, not all info, restrictions and dates disclosed during meetings, empty promises from advisors.  With no trust in this company, I plan to sell - or get out somehow - in 2014.  In his book, Mr. Marriott said the success of his company was due to the quality of its employees - not so much anymore!



Even Marriott knew (knows) the value of their timeshare business was next ti nil.  That's why they spun off the timeshare segment as a separate company (VAC).  The timeshare business was dragging down the "hotel management" portion (MAR) of the company and the stock price.

Now that the timeshare business is independent, my guess is that it can only get better going forward.  Let's hope for good management decisions.


----------

