# Will Wyndham count resale points towards VIP status with a new purchase?



## erixunz (Jun 7, 2011)

Hi Everyone! First, thanks for all the great tips I've picked up here on TUG over the past year or so. The tips have helped make our ownership experience much more enjoyable.

A little bit of background on my ownership situation that brought about the question:

We bought into Wyndham several years ago (started with a EOY contract with Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk).  We made a couple of additional purchases with Wyndham during subsequent visits that earned us VIP (regular, not Gold or Platinum) status.  We've found our VIP benefits very useful, as we plan our trips within two to three months of travel. For just about all of our vacations, we've been able to get the VIP discount and get the unit upgrade.  

Over the past year or so and after doing some research on TUG and other forums, we became confident enough to buy a few resale contracts. Those additional contracts have brought our account to almost 1 million points.  

I would like to know if anyone has been able to successfully negotiate a purchase with Wyndham that included allowing points from resale purchases to count towards VIP status.  In our case, I feel that a small ($10K-$15K?) purchase would be worth it because the upgrade to Platinum VIP status would expand our discount window from 30 days out to 60 days out and the additional 25% discount would essentially net us an extra 250,000 points per year.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice!


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2011)

No, that is not done. The VIP program and benefits you so like is expensive.

You should have ask and read more here on TUG to learn some work-arounds. The best way is using their PIC option.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 7, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> No, that is not done. The VIP program and benefits you so like is expensive.
> 
> You should have ask and read more here on TUG to learn some work-arounds. The best way is using their PIC option.



I have been sitting next to a numer of people at various Wyndham Sales Pitch that did just that.  However, the contracts for the new purchase were significantly more than you were thinking.  Not all of the sales offices do the same things.


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## sandkastle4966 (Jun 7, 2011)

If I read this right - you have a LEGITIMATE VIP membership (300k), and at least 700k resale.    

If you are registered at VIP, and have the developer points, you can't loose the VIP by trying to negotiate a cheap purchase with platinum (in writing).

If you have 300k developer, and have a GOLD VIP designation that slid in early and has not been caught, then you could loose that my "talking with sales".

The other thing to consider is if you are successful, you will need to do an equity transfer to get this done, which means ALL points are at one resort - loosing ARP.  If you are stricly 60 days out, doesn't matter.

I would join the Wyn site and query for info on the "cheapest" sales presentations to find out what the cost is.....I agree with previous post that I dont' think you can get a 10-12k purchase to get this done.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

Here's what i've been looking into...not really going to do it but...i've been researching the possiblity...just in case

80% of the people i talk to say converting a fixed week to points counts as a retail purchase and counts towards VIP....i figure an average for a fixed week converted to points is around 154,000(i wouldn't buy anything that would convert to less then that and aim for more)...i also figure its around $3k for the first conversion and $1k for any after that...thats about 7 weeks for a million points

$3k + $1k + $1k + $1k + $1k + $1k + $1k = $9k

Now my understanding is ALSO that if you buy a week that has already been converted to points(You'd be surprised how many people converted GREAT fixed weeks!) you can unconvert it for NO COST, then go through the above process

With Wyndham weeks going for $1 on ebay..you COULD get platnium VIP for less then $10k


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## shorts (Jun 7, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> 80% of the people i talk to say converting a fixed week to points counts as a retail purchase and counts towards VIP



This does not work! We converted 4 weeks which put us at VIP Platinum and were told by sales that we would be Platinum. Well we were for 1 year until they did an audit of our account and discovered that the fixed weeks were bought on the resale market and not directly from Wyndham (Fairfield). That took us back to VIP Gold.

So, unless your fixed weeks were bought directly from Fairfield, Wyndham will eventually find out and remove your VIP status. So if people are getting VIP status from converted fixed weeks, it's probably not going to last. There were many people who had their status changed after audits.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

shorts said:


> This does not work! We converted 4 weeks which put us at VIP Platinum and were told by sales that we would be Platinum. Well we were for 1 year until they did an audit of our account and discovered that the fixed weeks were bought on the resale market and not directly from Wyndham (Fairfield). That took us back to VIP Gold.
> 
> So, unless your fixed weeks were bought directly from Fairfield, Wyndham will eventually find out and remove your VIP status. So if people are getting VIP status from converted fixed weeks, it's probably not going to last. There were many people who had their status changed after audits.



Good to know...it's interesting...i had about 8-10 people tell me that it does work over 3 forums....Thank you for correcting the information


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## timeos2 (Jun 7, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Good to know...it's interesting...i had about 8-10 people tell me that it does work over 3 forums....Thank you for correcting the information



Two simple facts:

1) VIP cannot be obtained or upgraded with resale points as of the change made in late 2004-2005. Period.  To do so after that time you MUST pay an outrageous price for retail points and even if you do your "VIP" status and what it gives you will NOT be guaranteed or put in writing. Period. End of story.

2) Based on fact number 1 above getting VIP to day is NOT a good deal/value. Even if everything satyed exactly as it is today regarding benefits, the small, nickle and dime savings they represent would take decades, if ever, to merely recover your hefty up front cost.  Add in tat the benefits, small as they are, are NOT GUARANTEED and can and have been reduced at Wyndham whim.  You are risking a tremendous amount of upfront money to possibly save $10 in 20-25 years - where is the sense/value in that?  Far better, as the vast majority will tell you, to buy 70-80% of the resale points you need regularly, pool, borrow or rent those few extra you may need from time to time and pay the few dollars extra in annual fees to support those points.  The "savings" of VIP is mostly illusion - especially if you have paid thousands or even tens of thousands - to get it.  It is a losers game. Need proof? Sales pushes you about being VIP yet won't put any of the "benefits" down on paper as guaranteed to remain available even tomorrow forget 20 years from now.  It is a sales gimmick, little more, and only those that already had it from resales prior to the changeover are likely to ever see any return in value.  

VIP is a joke now and best ignored by newer, intelligent resale buyers.  Save your money that you would pay to be VIP and you'll have enough to pay 10+ years or more of all your annual fees for your Wyndham ownership.  THAT IS guaranteed while VIP is only guaranteed to cost you big.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Two simple facts:
> 
> 1) VIP cannot be obtained or upgraded with resale points as of the change made in late 2004-2005. Period.  To do so after that time you MUST pay an outrageous price for retail points and even if you do your "VIP" status and what it gives you will NOT be guaranteed or put in writing. Period. End of story..



This is why i thought converting to points via a Retail purchase WOULD count towards VIP...I may contact Wyndham later on today to confirm one way or the other 100%

VIP in some cases can save Hundreds if not thousands a year with free housekeeping credits, free Guest Certificates and 50% off points reservations...Granted, it can be taken away at any point...But it CAN save hundreds if not thousands in a year until that point

Just the 50% off on Reservations is a HUGE benefit...thats TWICE the weeks for the same MF's


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## timeos2 (Jun 7, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> This is why i thought converting to points via a Retail purchase WOULD count towards VIP...I may contact Wyndham later on today to confirm one way or the other 100%
> 
> VIP in some cases can save Hundreds if not thousands a year with free housekeeping credits, free Guest Certificates and 50% off points reservations...Granted, it can be taken away at any point...But it CAN save hundreds if not thousands in a year until that point
> 
> Just the 50% off on Reservations is a HUGE benefit...thats TWICE the weeks for the same MF's



You obviously have never dealt much with Wyndham housekeeping fees if you say any owner will save thousands.  To do that you'd practically have to use 52 weeks per year.  It is a nominal amount not hundreds. And in over 15 years of owning resale, non-VIP Wyndham Points and staying at every Wyndham resort we ever requested - all in prime use times - we paid just one HK fee - $35.  Usually we turned in unused HK credits despite our non-VIP "lowly" status.  Paying thousands (even back in the resale counted days) to get VIP would have cost us plenty - and with no value to us, no value at resale (since it cannot be sold/transferred to a new owner) we simply would have taken an even bigger loss on our purchase price than we did. And we bough cheap resale to start - even that number had dropped to $.01/point or less by the time we sold.  

When you call you will hear - 100% - that resale points are not VIP worthy.  And I'll repeat that today it takes a math challenged buyer to think they could ever get the money it will cost to become VIP back out in their lifetime.  It is effectively a dead horse as far as the resale of Wyndham points is concerned and buyers need not be concerned about VIP as it is nothing but sales blather. Listen to them at your own financial risk.


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## timeos2 (Jun 7, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> This is why i thought converting to points via a Retail purchase WOULD count towards VIP...I may contact Wyndham later on today to confirm one way or the other 100%
> 
> VIP in some cases can save Hundreds if not thousands a year with free housekeeping credits, free Guest Certificates and 50% off points reservations...Granted, it can be taken away at any point...But it CAN save hundreds if not thousands in a year until that point
> 
> Just the 50% off on Reservations is a HUGE benefit...thats TWICE the weeks for the same MF's



Sorry - forgot the 50% off - fine if you want 50% off leftovers as that is the vast majority of what you'll actually find available for that "deal".  Free guest certs - we never used or needed more than we were given and with more points comes more certificates. And at $95 at most it takes 11 to "save" $1000 - for which you paid at least $10K or more. Do the math. 

The sales weasels live like kings because people buy into the bogus lines you are spouting. Those types of "savings" just aren't there to be had - they really aren't. Those that got it for a few thousands back when may have eventually actually saved but those days are gone at current pricing. 

If you are so sure go ahead but please don't come back in 5 years crying that you paid for VIP, haven't saved much and now you can't even sell your points for $1 each.  That is the all too familiar outcome of the "grat VIP system".  Ignore all the advice this thread has given you and you will suffer in the wallet area.  Big time.  We've tried to warn you.  Signing off.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm not talking about Resale points though...I don't know why you keep bringing that up...

And i mentioned a few more things then just housekeeping credits in my hundreds to thousands saved...one was 50% off points on reservations...Which is BASICLY 50% off your MF's you would have paid for twice the vacation time...if a room would have cost you 182k points for a week, its now 91k and you can travel two weeks for the 182k

Alot of people are limited in their vacations, don't take short trips and book more then a year ahead for their rooms and/or don't rent out their weeks...For THEM, VIP in most cases has no value

For those that take short trips, HK Credits and Reservation Credits are an Issue, for those that rent their weeks, Guest Certificates are an issue, for those that like to travel spur of the moment full weeks or long weekends, all three of those are issues...PLUS can save 50% off on their trips or rent for ALOT cheaper/twice as much more then anyone else

I don't know why i'm arguing...at this point in my life...i wouldn't want to pay for the MF's required for 1million points...is its kinda a non-issue


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

*Heres a Question for you Timeos2:*

Hypothetically, you pay $5 a point for 182k points, $910 a year...You can get one week of vacation at a resort you like for that...What is the Value of getting a second week, without you MF's going any higher?....The one week to you was worth $910, why would the 2nd week be worth less? Thats a $910 value for JUST one year and ONLY one reservation...now with Platinum VIP, you have 1,000,000+ Points...so mulitply that by 5...With a cost of less then $10,000 in my example above...you'll have made you money back, in vacations over just *3 years*! That doesn't even count reservation transactions, housekeeping fees or Guest Certificate, lets face it in 90% of cases if you own over a million points, your renting and those things matter!...i'd say the payoff in most cases for someone who USES the system right is LESS then 2 years


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 7, 2011)

*New Math.*




Ridewithme38 said:


> Hypothetically, you pay $5 a point for 182k points, $910 a year.


182*,*000 x $5 = $910*,*000

Way too rich for my blood. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 7, 2011)

AwayWeGo said:


> 182*,*000 x $5 = $910*,*000
> 
> Way too rich for my blood.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



haha...ok, my bad...BUT THINK! With Platinum VIP you could get 14 days of vacation for that $910,000!


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## SunSandGirl (Jun 7, 2011)

sandkastle4966 said:


> The other thing to consider is if you are successful, you will need to do an equity transfer to get this done, which means ALL points are at one resort - loosing ARP.



How do equity transfers work?  I think this is what one sales person wanted to do for us.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 7, 2011)

shorts said:


> This does not work! We converted 4 weeks which put us at VIP Platinum and were told by sales that we would be Platinum. Well we were for 1 year until they did an audit of our account and discovered that the fixed weeks were bought on the resale market and not directly from Wyndham (Fairfield). That took us back to VIP Gold.
> 
> So, unless your fixed weeks were bought directly from Fairfield, Wyndham will eventually find out and remove your VIP status. So if people are getting VIP status from converted fixed weeks, it's probably not going to last. There were many people who had their status changed after audits.



If they accept it in the purchase process make absolutly sure that the points counting for VIP status is in writing and a condition of purchase.  If this is not the case, then what happened is very possable because it is just a flim flam.  They will probably not want to give you it in writing but just like buying a used car.  Tell them it is that or no sale.  They will hem and ha and scream foul and say that would have to be approved by higher up.  Tell them that would be OK.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 7, 2011)

AwayWeGo said:


> 182*,*000 x $5 = $910*,*000
> 
> Way too rich for my blood.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



You are closer to .005 to .006 cents a point not $5.  The $5 is probably $5 per thousand points.


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## timeos2 (Jun 7, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> You are closer to .005 to .006 cents a point not $5.  The $5 is probably $5 per thousand points.



The going rate for retail Wyndham is $.14-.17/PER POINT.  At the LOW end thats $25,000.  Discounted time is also available to non-VIP owners - just a little later. Either way it's just leftover, not prime time and you can easily rent it for less than even the resale cost + annual fees. You can rent it for 10 times less than retail cost + the exact same annual fees. Paying retail gets you nothing but a bigger up front cost you'll never get back and being in that VIP category that is never guaranteed to continue. Many better ways to waste money if you want to do that - I know of a few like a boat that will at least give you some pleasure when you use it rather than a sales weasel using YOUR money to pay for HIS watercraft (or Beamer or whatever they spend the spoils on).  Your choice. And you are correct. Owning 1 million Wyndham points today - no matter how you buy them - is close to the definition of fiscal insanity.  It simply does not return any type of value.  I'm very glad to hear you weren't seriously considering this but rather just speculating on IF it could be done. No harm in that.


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## sandkastle4966 (Jun 7, 2011)

SunSandGirl said:


> How do equity transfers work?  I think this is what one sales person wanted to do for us.



All of your contracts are rolled into ONE brand new one, with all the points at the new resort.

For example - if you had
200k Seawatch
200k Alexandria
200k Grand Desert
200k Bonnet Creek

and you now go get thru a sales man - 200k at Steamboat, with an equity transfer (potentially a way to VIP Platinum - get it in writing) - you end up with 1M at steamboat.  no ARP (200K) at any of the previous resorts.


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## ronparise (Jun 7, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> No, that is not done. The VIP program and benefits you so like is expensive.
> 
> You should have ask and read more here on TUG to learn some work-arounds. The best way is using their PIC option.



There are other possibilities. One is to marry someone that is VIP another is to be adopted by a VIP about to die, another is to have a VIP add you to his deed (and then die). But the best way, I think is to "rent" points from a VIP, you will get all the benefits, except the USA Today

I see value to VIP , not enough value to buy retail or even use the PIC option, but there is value. And if you do any rentals VIP may be the difference between profit and loss

1) no guest certificates; At $100 a pop these can add up it you do a significant number of rentals. and it allows for short term rentals that would be just too expensive to offer

2) no housekeeping charges; Again, a big help if you want to do short term rentals 

3) Cancel and rebook at a discount: This strategy is the difference between profit and break even for one mega renter Ive talked to

Clearly buying retail to get VIP makes no sense, but If I found a gal with a platinum membership Id marry her


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 7, 2011)

And say you did marry someone with VIP platinum. If you added your resale points to her developer purchased VIP account, do you not get VIP perks for all points involved?

Only thing you wouldn't get are the 15 per M free guest certificates.  I think...


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## ronparise (Jun 7, 2011)

.yes and no if not, If she is Gold, my points would not move her account from Gold to Platinum., Even if I pushed her to over a million.  we would still be limited to her 10 free guest certs. But i believe my points would now enjoy gold discounts,


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## rrlongwell (Jun 7, 2011)

ronparise said:


> .yes and no if not, If she is Gold, my points would not move her account from Gold to Platinum., Even if I pushed her to over a million.  we would still be limited to her 10 free guest certs. But i believe my points would now enjoy gold discounts,



Are you sure you are not bucking to become a Wyndham Sales Weasal.  I am waiting for these or similar suggestions from the regular Wyndham Sales Staff.  At our most recent Sales Promotion I got the boot because I would not buy from them.  My Wife was welcome to stay because they were under the misguided impression she might buy something from them.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 7, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> At our most recent Sales Promotion I got the boot because I would not buy from them.  My Wife was welcome to stay because they were under the misguided impression she might buy something from them.



No, that was NOT why you got booted and she didn't!

She was cuter ...


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 7, 2011)

*VIP - the good and the bad*

So my opinion, at this point, VIP is not as bad as some people think (there definitely are some nice advantages to it).  Nor is it nearly as good as the sales people would like you to believe.

One to the biggest drawbacks I see is that nothing is guaranteed and benefits can change at any time.  You could invest alot into being VIP Platinum only to have the rules change. 

I'm certainly not advocating purchasing a million points from Wyndham, but if you were to try to figure out other ways to become platinum, you could be shooting at a moving target.


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## ronparise (Jun 7, 2011)

Sandi Bo said:


> So my opinion, at this point, VIP is not as bad as some people think (there definitely are some nice advantages to it).  Nor is it nearly as good as the sales people would like you to believe.
> 
> One to the biggest drawbacks I see is that nothing is guaranteed and benefits can change at any time.  You could invest alot into being VIP Platinum only to have the rules change.
> 
> I'm certainly not advocating purchasing a million points from Wyndham, but if you were to try to figure out other ways to become platinum, you could be shooting at a moving target.



I think Ive figured it out...I just need to find a trusting and cooperative seller


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 8, 2011)

*VIP strategies*

One that would be claim to be a long lost immediate relative?


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## UpAllNight (Jun 8, 2011)

Thought I would pass on a tidbit of information I picked up on my last vacation (3 wks ago).  Wyndham has a new sales scam process.  They invite you to a group? lunch where they have a guest speaker come in and let you know all they ways to effectively use your points.  PROBLEM!!!!  First, you are seated with a sales rep while the lady gives her spiel (medium pressure sales pitch really).  Then you go through their high pressure sales pitch.  I really got my salesman mad at me.  I kept telling him no.  Over and over again.  He said "Please just give me a yes for something, anything."  I said sure here it is - Give me 600K points, no maintenance fees, no anything fees IN WRITING for a $1 and you got a deal, since I can buy resale for a low price, it will definitely have to be in writing.  This is my offer take it or leave it.  Poor guy was drinking from his cup and spit his coke all over his shirt.  Ruined his day and got us out quick.  One thing I did pick up at the meeting is that Wyndham is raising the points level required for VIP, Gold, and Platinum.  If I remember correctly (and I've slept since then)  VIP is going to 500-750K points and then GOLD and Platinum are even higher.


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## massvacationer (Jun 8, 2011)

UpAllNight said:


> One thing I did pick up at the meeting is that Wyndham is raising the points level required for VIP, Gold, and Platinum.  If I remember correctly (and I've slept since then)  VIP is going to 500-750K points and then GOLD and Platinum are even higher.



my guess is that the increased point amounts required for the levels of VIP is yet another sales tactic to get VIP owners to buy more points.....i bet it is not grounded in fact


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## erixunz (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I'll plan on maintaining the status quo with my current points/VIP level.  If I attend a sales pitch in the future, I'll be better informed.


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## lisa1001 (Jun 8, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> my guess is that the increased point amounts required for the levels of VIP is yet another sales tactic to get VIP owners to buy more points.....i bet it is not grounded in fact



We were given this pitch about 3 years ago.  I'm sure they can do it, but who in their right mind would make an additional purchase to attain a level that is ever increasing?


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 8, 2011)

Does that mean the Presidential Reserve owners will also have to buy more points? :ignore: :hysterical:


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## kaio (Jun 8, 2011)

Wyndham makes many mistakes... and sometimes they allow resale points to be counted to become VIP or VIP gold.... and sometimes they correct their error and put you back to normal "Plus"..... I have seen many scenerios... not sure how it happends... right now I am encountering Pooled credits disappearing.  I have sent in before and after screenshots from online... we will see what they say as they do have the power to throw you points if they believe they made an error somehow.  Sorry to side track thread


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## rrlongwell (Jun 8, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Does that mean the Presidential Reserve owners will also have to buy more points? :ignore: :hysterical:



As I understand the Presidential Reserve sales pitch is that that staus as to do with extra priveliges at the resorts and better units.  The points for VIP purpose are the same as the current Platium membership.  If they are thinking of or about to do what is mentioned in this thread, My guess is that the Access program is most vulnerable.  All you actually own is a member interest in a travel club and are subject to the changing whims of whoever has control of the Club.   I do not know enough about the discovery program, but it probably will not impact them much.   The only significat impact might be at the Platinum level where they are currently pitching purchases of the Discovery Package to supplement current points.  Possably the Gold and regular VIP status under the same theory.  

The old Fairfield and Wyndham contracts that are fixed week or UDI, I do not know because that probably depends on how the contracts read.  They may not all read alike, I did get in writing that my purchase, as a condition of purchase, made me a Plantium Member.  

I would hope that this is true, existing contracts would be grandfathered.  If they were not grandfathered that could create a cause of action relating to not giving benifits that were sold as part of the sales pitch.  If this means anything to Wyndham is a matter of speculation.


Update:  Called Wyndham, indicated that changes to the points needed for a level of Platium Membership is not being changed or being considered for change.


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## Don (Jun 9, 2011)

UpAllNight said:


> He said "Please just give me a yes for something, anything."  I said sure here it is - Give me 600K points, no maintenance fees, no anything fees IN WRITING for a $1 and you got a deal, since I can buy resale for a low price, it will definitely have to be in writing.  This is my offer take it or leave it.  Poor guy was drinking from his cup and spit his coke all over his shirt.  Ruined his day and got us out quick.



:rofl::rofl::hysterical:


UpAllNight said:


> One thing I did pick up at the meeting is that Wyndham is raising the  points level required for VIP, Gold, and Platinum.  If I remember  correctly (and I've slept since then)  VIP is going to 500-750K points  and then GOLD and Platinum are even higher.



I've been hearing that same thing for several years, hasn't happened yet.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 9, 2011)

Don said:


> :rofl::rofl::hysterical:
> 
> 
> I've been hearing that same thing for several years, hasn't happened yet.



Which resorts are saying this?


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## bnoble (Jun 9, 2011)

The ones with sales prospects who are just above today's qualifying levels, I'm sure.  Nothing like the vague suggestion of loss to get someone to buy more!


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## UpAllNight (Jun 9, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Which resorts are saying this?



This happened to us at Edisto Beach.


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## Don (Jun 10, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Which resorts are saying this?


Not sure exactly, but it was probably: Bonnet Creek, Kingsgate, or Alexandria as we have stayed there more than others.  Other possibilities are: Lake Lure, Atlantic City, Las Vegas, or Daytona Beach.

They will also tell you to get up to the next level so you will be grandfathered in when the amounts change.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 10, 2011)

Don said:


> Not sure exactly, but it was probably: Bonnet Creek, Kingsgate, or Alexandria as we have stayed there more than others.  Other possibilities are: Lake Lure, Atlantic City, Las Vegas, or Daytona Beach.
> 
> They will also tell you to get up to the next level so you will be grandfathered in when the amounts change.



Thank you for the info.


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## MichaelColey (Jun 10, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Clearly buying retail to get VIP makes no sense, but If I found a gal with a platinum membership Id marry her


That could turn out to be FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than buying from the developer.


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