# I could be changing my mind about the points program.



## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

I spoke online to a rep last night who assured me that A) nothing changes if I use the weeks option. I can lock-off, reserve and exchange just as I always have, B) I can choose the week I want deposited rather than the Marriott advisor choosing it for me, C) It appears we'll still have online access to Interval but, this is something I'm not 100% convinced of. Looking at our past history for exchanges, this is a toss up. It probably runs about 50/50 for me making exchanges online vs deposit and request. 

The one issue I'm still concerned about and would keep me out of the program is being able to make my own exchanges online. We've been successful almost every time in exchanging our studio week to a one bedroom unit. Having to go through and advisor and make a request would cost me that option with Interval's like for like weeks program unless I'm exchanging into resorts that don't have studio's as an option, which is rare in our case. If Marriott leaves me with complete control, including online access to search and make my own exchanges, then I'm probaly in. 

Don't get me wrong, I still don't like receiving fewer points than Marriott charges. But, there are also some bargains to be had as it stands now in the new points program. Plus, if we want ocean front/ocean view rather than garden view and, if I'm willing to pay the price (heavy as it may be), that will make my wife happier. She likes to see the ocean and calling the shot of the view might be worth it to her so long as we can continue to take as many vacations as we're accustomed to taking. 

It seems to be that most advisor/rep discusion postings are indicating legacy owners will keep control of their week rather than giving Marriott control. There are bargains we can make good use of in their points system but, I'll have to be very selective about that as many times it's more economical to use the weeks exchagne program. 

It will take approx. 4 years to break even on the cost based on our past usage. While that could be better it's tolerable. 

Why did I post this as a seperate thread? Because I've been outspoken against the program. I'm not one to always toss the baby out with the bathwater and I will always take a strong look at any offer on the table. I'll read through the legal stuff and, if I don't find anything extremely objectionable, I'll take a risk on the $695 joiner fee plus the $199 yearly membership fee (we have enough points we'll be premier members). If we join I figure it will be one or two years down the road before I know if I've through money down the well or not.


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## brigechols (Jun 25, 2010)

Did you and Perry share the same glass of Kool Aid?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Did you and Perry share the same glass of Kool Aid?



Depends on what's in the Kool-aid. Like Perry, I'll always look at the program closely before passing final judgement. There are advantages I can make use of if the information I'm getting is correct and, the risk ($695+$199 membership fee) isn't that high. I could be wrong and lose $1,000 on the deal but, I've done worse in the past. 

Marriott did a lousy job with their release. It's apparent they're not worried about current owners but are trying to find ways to sell new product. Selling points will fit that need because the entry level has gone down to $9,200 for 1,000 points. Never mind that won't get an owner anything except maybe tri-annual usage in shoulder of off season, it's the ability to sell the sizzle of the program.

In the meantime, there are area's that can benefit me IF I work the program correctly. I have until December 31st as it stands now to join and get the 800 bonus points, for which I have already found potential uses. That could save me either a $109 exchange fee or save me from using my DRI points, which could then be shifted to provide additional savings vs making exchanges through I.I. 

I will never be happy about what I preceive as Marriott skimming points. It's doubtful I'll use the points option very often but, we don't fly to Hawaii very often either. Hawaii and beach front locations are the one exception to my thought of not using points for exchanges. The wife prefers to see and hear the ocean so, the cost could be worth it if I can snag the view we want on those rare occasions. 

And there ARE some bargains in there as far as points values. Harbor Point, Newport Coast, Willow Ridge and Moutain Valley Lodge are all bargains based on the time of year we like to go to those detinations. Every year will become a little more complicated with planning as I'll have the calculator out trying to figure out the best usage for all the ownerships we have.

The one additional issue will be the one I.I. affiliated resort we own in Branson. It will be the odd man out and I'm not certain I'll be able to use it efficiently if we join Marriott's program. I may either need to give it away or rent it out to co-workers who want to vacation in Branson. Fortunately, the MF's on that week were only $245 last year and they don't appear to be in grave danger of rising quickly. Even if I hold onto that week, it's not going to be a burden financially to keep it. I'll always manage to find someway to use it.

As it is with Marriott, it all boils down to money. How can I get the greatest use out of my ownership in both enjoyment and financial respects.


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## timeos2 (Jun 25, 2010)

*Points and an internal systems have a great appeal especially priced right*

It should be no surprise to anyone that those willing to consider a points system as an option for their timeshare exchange needs would "come around" to the Marriott plan (or any other for the resort/group that their ownership qualifies for).  That's due to the fact that under the covers the basic idea of a points system is far more user friendly, helps assure reasonably equal value and offers a flexibility that the basic week for week trade process cannot. While the week for week approach can offer big wins in trade ups it comes at a steep cost of uncertainty, high fees and a one shot and gone use of the time in trade. 

Simply looking at the way points systems work so efficiently to spread the inventory over the membership fairly it can be compelling to join in. That's why when the shouting of "punishing owners" etc occurred in the build up to Marriotts offering I never doubted the majority would find the value - especially at the low introductory pricing - in whatever the Marriott system ended up being. It was virtually guaranteed from the start. 

Now we see some of those more prone to in depth analysis reaching the conclusion that the negatives - of which there are plenty - are outweighed for them by the benefits. As it is just an option, came in on the low side of the potential cost chart and these buyers already own & like the Marriott brand, they now want to take advantage of the initial low cost and give it a whirl. Those that learn from history should already know that the only ones regretting not moving to points from past conversions in other systems are those that sat on their hands when the initial, low cost offer to join was made and then find out years later the cost has tripled or quadrupled. The system used low cost to get off the ground then went to a longer term, higher cost buy in meant to keep the sales force paid. 

It was never an earth shattering event. It was one of the most hinted at (over 3+ years of rumors) programs ever.  Now it exists and is not all that different than every other developer run points system. And like most of the others it will coexist with the "old" weeks owners from now on. 

I personally wouldn't buy in as the whole Marriott culture of control from top to bottom simply goes against my views on how a timeshare resort should be run. But if you like Marriott and decide to accept how they build and operate the resorts in their system I can see that taking the last step of being part of their most flexible way of using it would make good sense. Doug likes points systems - we both belong to the DRI version - so he is a prime candidate to see a value in taking part in Marriotts.


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## rsackett (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> ...
> And there ARE some bargains in there as far as points values. Harbor Point, Newport Coast, Willow Ridge and Moutain Valley Lodge are all bargains based on the time of year we like to go to those detinations. Every year will become a little more complicated with planning as I'll have the calculator out trying to figure out the best usage for all the ownerships we have.
> ....




They are not bargains for those who own there.  I would not count on owners of Harbour Point joining, or if they do I doubt that they will be turnning in for points.  1150 points for a summer Hilton Head 2 bedroom is a joke!  Marriott/II would ask for 4500 points for ANY 2 bedroom on Hilton Head in the summer as an external trade.  Marriott may have valued Harbour Point so low to make customers think "I could get 4 weeks on Hilton Head for my one week", but it is not going to happen.  I do not see any owners there turning in their week for points!

Ray


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## normab (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> If Marriott leaves me with complete control, including online access to search and make my own exchanges, then I'm probably in.



This is our one major concern with converting ALL of our units.  Somewhere here on TUG I read that we would give up our access to looking at the available units online, and we do that for flexchange frequently.  Having bought one lockoff unit strictly for last minute exchanges, we don't want to have to call daily to see what's available. We have thought about converting everything except this one unit, but are holding off until the smoke clears and we can get a straight answer.

Not sure if anyone has the correct/consistent answer on this yet...?

Norma


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## lll1929 (Jun 25, 2010)

I am also thinking about joining, but I am going to wait for a while.  I want to see what's going to change with II and it's too early to know the truth.  With only one week, I alway trade out for points every other year and lockoff my unit for 2 weeks of vacation.  As I prepare to send 2 kids to college, I will do less traveling and may look for shorter trips.  

I may join before Dec, we'll see.


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## MikeZ (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Why did I post this as a seperate thread? Because I've been outspoken against the program. I'm not one to always toss the baby out with the bathwater and I will always take a strong look at any offer on the table. I'll read through the legal stuff and, if I don't find anything extremely objectionable, I'll take a risk on the $695 joiner fee plus the $199 yearly membership fee (we have enough points we'll be premier members). If we join I figure it will be one or two years down the road before I know if I've through money down the well or not.



Doug,

I appreciate your post and the new thread.  After five days of a LOT of emotion, it is time to settle back and really analyze this new program.  I am still quite bothered by one issue (no need to rehash) which has shaken my trust in Marriott, but I have now spent the last couple says looking at what works and what doesn't work in the new program for me.

I have come to the decision that there are WAY too many unknowns and WAY too many conflicting answers from Marriott employees (as opposed to us speculating!) to move forward yet.  But, that doesn't mean the door is closed for me forever.  The good news is that there is NO RUSH to sign up!  There is really very little risk in waiting to see how some of the questions get answered and how the program unfolds.

So for me, the best thing is not to get caught up the emotional side of this process, and certainly not play the "who's right/who's wrong" game.  There has been a lot of that over the last couple says here and the facts tend to get lost in that process...


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## Darlene (Jun 25, 2010)

We own 1 fixed week at Marriott Monarch that we bought resale from Marriott. It is the week of Memorial Day.  We get so few points for our week in the new system that I can not see anyway that the new Marriott program would work for us. It would take years of banking, and mf's to be able to trade into other properties. 
Of course, for the new program to work Marriott needs owners to sign up, pay the enrollment fee, and give them their week so that all those guys with points, and priority reservations can get the weeks they want.  
All of you who bought resale are now in a great position now, and will probably have enough points to get anything you want.


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 25, 2010)

Doug,

Thanks for creating a seperate thread which takes me away from the madding crowd where the argument is moving in too many directions and is really not at all helpful in disentangling this huge Gordian Knot that Marriott has tossed our way. Appreciative to see your take and your thoughts in a practical sense.

Like I mention earlier, I'm not in a frame of mind right now to ponder all of this stuff. What I do know is that we are basically 'stay where you own' owners at this point in time -- that's just the way it works for us at this moment. This of course can change in the future, so at some point I gotta look under the hood of the new program & compare options. I remain a bit ticked off that Marriott is trying to compel me to act relatively sooner than later to get the cheap buy-in. Likewise Marriott is mum about the Europe resorts which still have legal issues to be worked out. If Marriott really wants this new program to work, then they need to allow us significantly more time to make a decision -- how many years have they themselves been working on this program?   Lots of us have long-standing relationships with MVCI and Marriott should keep that in mind and allow us in the door whenever we finally muddle through the "glowing" & "enthusiastic" promo materials they've tossed up on the web. First one has to thoroughly understand the new program and then perform their own individual timeshare portfolio calculus several times to get a grasp of what they may or may not want to do. This may come easy to some owners and with more effort from others -- it's all a product of what/where you own and how you utilize your weeks and set your priorties.

I haven't seen Brian (*pwrshft*) weigh in yet as I'd really like to see how he breaks things down.  Hopefully some of the other circumspect owners will wander into your thread and do some practical thinking out loud so that we can each start to do our own comparisons. Definitely interesting times in MVCI Land. Hopefully TUG will be a good resource for getting a better grasp of the in's and out's of the new program.

Barry


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 25, 2010)

I find it rather humorous that Doug and Perry changed their minds about the program.

Nothing has changed really.  The only thing that has changed is their irrational fear succumbing to their rational thought.

To me, it's not a horrible program given their constraints.  But, I didn't expect a bad program.  I see what they have tried to do.  I believe Marriott will on balance try to balance the needs of all stakeholders to the best of their abilities.  Of course, shareholders will come first, so they will have their finger on the scale.  But, I expected all that.

I will wait to see how the equilibrium works out with the two new systems sitting side by side before I make a decision on what I will do.

What I am still looking for:

1) What will authorized resellers be able to offer?  Will they be able to enroll fixed/floating weeks into the system?  If so, I'll try to get in at around $.20/point MF.

2) Will Marriott add a bonus time/flex week option for internal exchanges.  It's a big miss for them from a revenue and control point of view.

3) Will Marriott start exercising ROFR again?   I don't know if they will or not.  If they do, there will be a very active resale market in which I might participate.

4) Will points be transferrable one time between accounts.  If so, this will be a great way to use the system by renting points from other owners.

If they do any of the above, I will probably get active in Marriott.  Otherwise, I will keep trying to use my Marriott weeks.  If they don't trade well any longer, I'll just send them to the Timeshare Graveyard to let them die.


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## ldanna (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> The one issue I'm still concerned about and would keep me out of the program is being able to make my own exchanges online. We've been successful almost every time in exchanging our studio week to a one bedroom unit. Having to go through and advisor and make a request would cost me that option with Interval's like for like weeks program unless I'm exchanging into resorts that don't have studio's as an option, which is rare in our case. If Marriott leaves me with complete control, including online access to search and make my own exchanges, then I'm probaly in.



Right now I am thinking exactly the same way you're doing Doug, and as Susan said, we have the oportunity to live and enjoy both worlds: weeks and points. But I need to see II inventory, I don't know why but I do need that. Can't do this only with points and an advisor telling what he/she got for me.

I think we will have to wait for those enrolled owners to report their II experience. Information right now is not clear if we're going to have full access or not if we decide not to convert our weeks into points.


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## VacationPro (Jun 25, 2010)

I am currently strongly inclined to convert (I own weeks that will give me a about 9,000 points a year).

Here are the factors I've come up with relevant to my situation:

Pros:
1) Gain ability to trade weeks for Marriott Rewards Points on an every other year basis which will help when going to places without Marriott Timeshares (Big Island, New York City, Europe, etc.).
2) Will save me money based on Interval International and trading fees (since I bought one week exclusively to trade) on a yearly basis (but will take years to break even on initial fee)
3) System allows for less than 1 week stays to be booked at 10 months out
4) I expect access to existing and new Marriott resorts (eventually) will be better internal in the system than through II
5) More control over exact timing of vacation via reservation system instead of II system and hoping the trade comes through.
6) Can "game system" in new ways--shorter stays during the week, and less weekend stays to multiple weeks for my 3 weeks of maintenance fees
7) May be able to pick up some very cheap resale weeks to use or trade that can augment the existing portfolio.
8) More control over views and premiums when going to a resort
9) Still will have access to desired weeks at my resort
10) Can book in 1BR or studios depending on needs and not use the "whole" week, so no need to trade down since I don't have a lock-off.
11) Can book cruises and other options--still probably not the cheapest use of options, but if weeks are expiring, worth something.
12) Some destinations, like Vail, will be cheaper to obtain during the summer.
13 Much easier to string together vacations and various places--East coast swing, Florida or Caribbean than hoping to get it with II.

Cons:
1) Costs to Hawaii, Caribbean and Hilton Head summer will go up significantly.
2) Marriott gets to pocket the "bid-ask spread", presumably at the detriment of current owners
3) Resale value of weeks expected to decline significantly as entry into the system is uncertain
4) Possibly (probably?) less availability of prime time weeks in Interval International due to Marriott's new rules, essentially forcing my hand.
5) Expect maintenance fees to increase because of increased Housekeeping, wear and tear of moving in and out possibly multiple times a week.
6) Cost of enrollment--a money grab for Marriott, no doubt.
7) Giving Marriott proxy power for votes during time week is in the program.

I look at it this way.  I estimate I saved over 2/3 in buying my weeks resale vs buying through Marriott.  I now can enjoy every benefit that direct purchasers of weeks enjoy at approximately 1/3 the price.  The $1300 extra is worth that. 

Differences between what I expected in the program and what seems to be reality:
Weeks owners don't get the average required of their season.
No type of Flexchange or Bonus time for last minute (30 day or 59 day window) for reduced point requirements.


Maybe this will be in Phase II and you will have to have been a Phase I point participant and will need to cough up another fee. :rofl: 

Not sure if that helps as these are specific to my situation, but maybe food for thought.


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## m61376 (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I spoke online to a rep last night who assured me that A) nothing changes if I use the weeks option. I can lock-off, reserve and exchange just as I always have,



Doug- First of all- let me say I appreciate your analysis. But we need to keep something in mind. While I am awaiting confirmation of this, from my understanding of the documentation and from discussions I have had, it is not really true that nothing changes if we use the weeks option. The reps like to tout that, to promote the concept that legacy week owners have nothing to lose, in a way to justify their ask/bid difference.

However, there is likely a VERY different reality (as I said, I am awaiting confirmation, but it appears I am, unfortunately, not misunderstanding). True, I can reserve my high demand week in my season and deposit it to II- business as usual. You can do the same. In theory, if I request your high demand week and you request mine, if they are equal quality we should get first dibs and II should make the exchange, but....along comes Marriott. Marriott has a points owner who wants my high demand week that I just deposited and- guess who gets it? Although inventories are kept separate for initial reservations, it appears that anything goes in trading, and Marriott has free access to fill point owner's requests with week owner's deposits. So who is that prime week going to go to?

So please don't fall into the trap of believing that everything stays the same if you want it to, because that's simply a fallacy and that is the spin that Marriott is promoting, but it really isn't true. The only thing that really stays the same- maybe- if they keep the inventories separate- is the ability to book your own week in your own season at your own resort. And, of course, that's assuming that they don't reach a bit into that cookie jar either.

Now, I'd agree with the argument that what's the alternative? It may be you can't beat them, so you might as well join them and protect your investment. I may do that; I am glad we have a few months to decide. But it will be which is the lesser of two evils- because I firmly believe that Marriott severely devalued some owner's ownerships.

There are some owners, admittedly, who will fare very well under the new system. Owners of properties which command relatively lower rental rates but received higher point valuations than properties with much higher rental rates, for example or, like Perry, those who received approximately a point per dollar retail rental value are right to extol the benefits as they see them, but there are many other owners who are right that Marriott has their hands in their back pockets, so to speak, not necessarily for the enrollment costs, but for advertising the club as having a reasonable all inclusive low fee of $169 or 199 per year, but hiding the real cost of their skimming from the value of each and every point transfer because they are giving the owners 7-15% less in points than they are charging for them. Moreover, lets not forget that they have the right to altruistically make adjustments at their discretion. All you need to do is think of the Rewards Points program to know who the benefactor of that altruism will be.

Again, I am not arguing that joining is a mistake- and it's not up to me to say if it's a mistake for anyone else anyway- but that we shouldn't be blindsided into believing that by joining we will still have the option of business as usual, because we give Marriott the right to raid the weeks of destination club participants who deposit their owned weeks. I don't know if whether we don't join they can do it anyway, since those weeks are not part of the club.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 25, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Now, I'd agree with the argument that what's the alternative? It may be you can't beat them, so you might as well join them and protect your investment.



Someone will fill the gap if you don't give in.  

I went on strike with II when they allowed Starwood to mess with our right to book and deposit specific weeks.  Now we get "placeholders" that represent the average trading power in seasons that were created as WAY TOO LONG so that they could oversell prime season.    By the way, there seems to be a lot of that going on with Marriott's new system as well -- punishing owners with lower point values when they oversold seasons (Newport ... and maybe Aruba?).  The seasons were fine when they were taking your money ... but I digress.

As a result of my strike, I decided to give SFX a try despite the fact that I don't like their lack of online search capability.  I traded a one-BR prime Starwood week ($500 maint fee) for the Manhattan Club (probably would have received one of the Hiltons if I had asked earlier) and received 2 bonus weeks (one good in Mexico only, but it got a prime spring break week at a gold crown resort).  Not a bad deal.  

I know ... I know ... SFX doesn't have the Marriott preference period.  But, you all have HUGE strength in numbers.  How long do you think it will take for SFX to guarantee you a Marriott preference period (I bet they're working on a business plan as we speak!).  And, if you give them enough business, maybe they'll finally build that online search capability they desperately need!


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## JimIg23 (Jun 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I spoke online to a rep last night who assured me that A) nothing changes if I use the weeks option. I can lock-off, reserve and exchange just as I always have, B) I can choose the week I want deposited rather than the Marriott advisor choosing it for me, C)* It appears we'll still have online access to Interval but, this is something I'm not 100% convinced of.* Looking at our past history for exchanges, this is a toss up. It probably runs about 50/50 for me making exchanges online vs deposit and request.
> 
> *The one issue I'm still concerned about and would keep me out of the program is being able to make my own exchanges online*. We've been successful almost every time in exchanging our studio week to a one bedroom unit. Having to go through and advisor and make a request would cost me that option with Interval's like for like weeks program unless I'm exchanging into resorts that don't have studio's as an option, which is rare in our case. If Marriott leaves me with complete control, including online access to search and make my own exchanges, then I'm probaly in.
> 
> .



I spoke to rep today.  After some confusion on a few things, he told me that we will have online access to II, just the same as now, but with a different II number.  We went over this a few times.

I will be much more confortable after someone from TUG actually gets their new II number and tries for themselves.  I was also told that if you secure a deeded week, the trading power in II is the same as before. 

Just as long as those two things are true, I am going to join.  I know people say it is a lot of money to join, but I spent alot on my timeshares, and I spend a lot on MFs, airfare, etc.  It is worth getting into on the ground floor and seeing where this goes.  At the end of the day, I still have my deeds.....


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Now, I'd agree with the argument that what's the alternative? It may be you can't beat them, so you might as well join them and protect your investment. I may do that; I am glad we have a few months to decide. But it will be which is the lesser of two evils- because I firmly believe that Marriott severely devalued some owner's ownerships.



I am planning to join.  It's going to cost me a lot, but I need to protect the investment I already have.  I will never be able recoup the cost, but that is the price I'm paying for my original decision to buy a timeshare.  I jumped into this, and now I'm am going to have to shell out the bucks.

According to the Marriott rep I have been communicating with, they plan to eventually roll-out some type of point buy-back program.  Perhaps, they will address the potential for a complete resale value collapse (which is what I expect will eventually happen if they don't eventually allow resale buyers to join).


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## hipslo (Jun 25, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> According to the Marriott rep I have been communicating with, they plan to eventually roll-out some type of point buy-back program.



Marriott has tons of unsold inventory that they can use to sell new points for years and years to come.  Given that, why would they be even remotely interested in buying points back?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

rsackett said:


> They are not bargains for those who own there.  I would not count on owners of Harbour Point joining, or if they do I doubt that they will be turnning in for points.  1150 points for a summer Hilton Head 2 bedroom is a joke!  Marriott/II would ask for 4500 points for ANY 2 bedroom on Hilton Head in the summer as an external trade.  Marriott may have valued Harbour Point so low to make customers think "I could get 4 weeks on Hilton Head for my one week", but it is not going to happen.  I do not see any owners there turning in their week for points!
> 
> Ray



This is true but, if you've been following the discussions and reading the documents, owners at resorts like Harbor Town don't have to join for their weeks to be available in the points based program. Marriott appears to have the right to "exchange" for those weeks, just like you and me, in order to obtain them for their points based members who are requesting that week. Now Marriott is probably going to have to give up something to get something from Interval but, that's going to be between those two entities and I'm not sure that we'll ever find out exactly what that agreement might be.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

normab said:


> This is our one major concern with converting ALL of our units.  Somewhere here on TUG I read that we would give up our access to looking at the available units online, and we do that for flexchange frequently.  Having bought one lockoff unit strictly for last minute exchanges, we don't want to have to call daily to see what's available. We have thought about converting everything except this one unit, but are holding off until the smoke clears and we can get a straight answer.
> 
> Not sure if anyone has the correct/consistent answer on this yet...?
> 
> Norma



And this is a problem for me as well. IMHO, Marriott's launch of this new program sucks. The reps seem poorly trained on how the program works and I believe there is a lot of misinterpretation going on. On the other hand, as days go by it seems that they are becoming more consistant. I'm hoping that what I'm being told now, that I basically maintain ALL of my rights with Interval when I join, is the correct answer.


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## tidefan (Jun 25, 2010)

rsackett said:


> They are not bargains for those who own there.  I would not count on owners of Harbour Point joining, or if they do I doubt that they will be turnning in for points.  1150 points for a summer Hilton Head 2 bedroom is a joke!  Marriott/II would ask for 4500 points for ANY 2 bedroom on Hilton Head in the summer as an external trade.  Marriott may have valued Harbour Point so low to make customers think "I could get 4 weeks on Hilton Head for my one week", but it is not going to happen.  I do not see any owners there turning in their week for points!
> 
> Ray



You know, I am just a casual observer to this, but Doug's thread is an apropos place to post this since he is a fellow DRI owner.  We own at Royal Palm Beach Club in the DRI (then Sunterra) system, which was all weeks and was sold out (some to even full time and quarter share owners), but managed by Sunterra.  Then, Sunterra started "The Club" and made all of the same promises it seems that Marriott is making, and like I am seeing, for some it works out great, and for others, it doesn't.

One funny thing about our resort that relates here is that Sunterra valued Royal Palm at so little points (i.e. got less points than resorts in Orlando and Arizona) that most of the owners never converted into the program.  Most said that RPBC would be a "bargain" pointwise.  However, in reality, the upshot is that most fixed weeks owners just kept their weeks and RPBC is a hard trade to get into, even though it is a "point bargain".  We have friends that have converted into points (they had many weeks with Sunterra) and they have issues getting the week they want at RPBC even with the multi-week owner advantage.  We kept our fixed week and have enjoyed it every year.  Over the past 2 years, MFs at RPBC have gone from about $800/year to $1,380/year for a 2 Bdrm unit.  Many of us fixed week owners speculate that this is how DRI is trying to "force" us out of our units to free up weeks for the system.  We'll see how that works out, but it seems like a similar place to where units like Harbour Point find themselves in.

Now don't get me wrong, I like point systems.  We are extremely happy with our DVC ownership.  However, where I think issues come in are systems that mix weeks with points.  That is where I think that DRI, and perhaps Marriott, are treading slippery slopes.  We are at Grande Ocean now on our in-laws trade (they got in here on an Ocean Pointe studio trade - got it during flexchange at 2 weeks out).  I like Grande Ocean, but not enough to pay what they are wanting.  We had thought previously about getting a resale Branson or the like for a good flexchange trader, but now, I think that if I were going to buy to come to Hilton Head, I will be much better off just getting Disney's HHI Resort points on the resale market...

It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out...


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## dougp26364 (Jun 25, 2010)

lll1929 said:


> I am also thinking about joining, but I am going to wait for a while.  I want to see what's going to change with II and it's too early to know the truth.  With only one week, I alway trade out for points every other year and lockoff my unit for 2 weeks of vacation.  As I prepare to send 2 kids to college, I will do less traveling and may look for shorter trips.
> 
> I may join before Dec, we'll see.



This is about the point where I'm at. It's starting to look good but, I want to give it a while to see what it looks like when all the reps are saying the same thing. There appears to still be discrepencies in what owners are being told. We have at least until Dec. as it stands now to see how everything shakes out.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

jerseyfinn said:


> Doug,
> 
> Thanks for creating a seperate thread which takes me away from the madding crowd where the argument is moving in too many directions and is really not at all helpful in disentangling this huge Gordian Knot that Marriott has tossed our way. Appreciative to see your take and your thoughts in a practical sense.
> 
> ...



At this point there's no indication they'll increase the price in 2011. Only that they may not offer the 800 bonus points for joining. If the loss of 800 bonus points is the only penalty for taking more time, then that's no big loss IMHO.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I find it rather humorous that Doug and Perry changed their minds about the program.
> 
> Nothing has changed really.  The only thing that has changed is their irrational fear succumbing to their rational thought.
> 
> ...



In all fairness, if you read through my posts before the the official announcement, you'll see I was on the opposite side of the fence from Perry. I thought it would be a good program.

Where I changed my mind was when I saw the skimming of points by Marriott. I still don't like that and question why Marriott has choosen to charge more in points than the give out and, where are those exess points going and how is Marriott using them. 

But in the end I'm just like Marriott. How can I be most efficient financially with my ownership. If they give me enough financial incentives without taking to much away then it's something I can us. The points side won't a major portion of the program initially for us. Instead the savings of one fee pays for everything is the attraction IF (and it's a big if) I maintain control of my account for exchange purposes.

Can I make use of the points side of the equation? Of course I can. But due to the unbalanced nature of the beast, it will take considerably more work than either our Hilton or DRI ownerships. It's by far NOT the best points based system for current owners. For new buyers I don't see a problem. They have no skin in the old way. The program will be as flexible as they want it to be without worrying about being underpaid in points for their week. They have no week that can be underpaid.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

hipslo said:


> Marriott has tons of unsold inventory that they can use to sell new points for years and years to come.  Given that, why would they be even remotely interested in buying points back?



Here is a quote from the Marriott rep I have been communicating with:

"Marriott already has a resale program for deeded weeks and will continue to maintain it. As far as points, we will have a system in place within a year. The good thing about points resale is that we will likely simply offer to buy it back at a percentage instead of waiting for a new owner."

Here is another on the resale and point sale issues:

"I agree with you. Without creating an opportunity for resale the entire program would become quite a disaster. 

This is also why Marriott is allowing "trading" points with other owners. If an owner reaches the points they want to get out, they can list for resale, but until an owner is found they can always sell their points on a yearly basis.

Before, owners would have to make a weekly reservation in their season at their club and hope someone wanted it. Now... They simply mention they have 1,000 points and another owner can pay for them to add to their pool. Rental will become much more efficient and flexible."


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Doug- First of all- let me say I appreciate your analysis. But we need to keep something in mind. While I am awaiting confirmation of this, from my understanding of the documentation and from discussions I have had, it is not really true that nothing changes if we use the weeks option. The reps like to tout that, to promote the concept that legacy week owners have nothing to lose, in a way to justify their ask/bid difference.
> 
> However, there is likely a VERY different reality (as I said, I am awaiting confirmation, but it appears I am, unfortunately, not misunderstanding). True, I can reserve my high demand week in my season and deposit it to II- business as usual. You can do the same. In theory, if I request your high demand week and you request mine, if they are equal quality we should get first dibs and II should make the exchange, but....along comes Marriott. Marriott has a points owner who wants my high demand week that I just deposited and- guess who gets it? Although inventories are kept separate for initial reservations, it appears that anything goes in trading, and Marriott has free access to fill point owner's requests with week owner's deposits. So who is that prime week going to go to?
> 
> ...



I realize the Marriott can snag weeks from Interval. But I believe they can snag those weeks for both points members and legacy members in their program. Marriott will manage the weeks exchanges along with the points exchanges. If I'm requesting a week to week exchange inside the new program I'm of the belief that Marriott can snag that week for me, a member of the program, in order to fullfill my exchange. 

If I'm outside the program then I'm competing with Marriott as you're suggesting. It's a fine line and is definately a risk but, $695 + $199 isn't that big of a risk to me. I look at it as being a bigger risk being on the outside looking in. 

If it turns out that Marriott can't fullfill my exchange requests then the program will be a bust and I'll cancel my membership. It will be good money tossed after bad and I'll have learned yet another lesson.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

hipslo said:


> Marriott has tons of unsold inventory that they can use to sell new points for years and years to come.  Given that, why would they be even remotely interested in buying points back?



Perhaps the rep was referencing a points for maintenance fee's option. If not I agree that it's unlikely Marriott will buy back points as it has a ton of unsold inventory. If they do, I would think that it will be for pennies on the dollar.


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## hipslo (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Here is a quote from the Marriott rep I have been communicating with:
> 
> "Marriott already has a resale program for deeded weeks and will continue to maintain it. As far as points, we will have a system in place within a year. The good thing about points resale is that we will likely simply offer to buy it back at a percentage instead of waiting for a new owner."
> 
> ...




I would take most of that with a grain of salt until we see evidence of it actually working that way in the future. I am not saying it WON'T work that way, just that I am skeptical and would not buy in reliance on those sorts of statements. 

Why would they be interested in buying points back, even at a steep discount? They have so much inventory to sell already, why would it make sense for them to shell out ANY money just to add to their unsold inventory? 

Under the current system, they might actually buy at a high demand, sold out resort from time to time, since there is no other way for them to acquire inventory at that resort.  Under the new system, there is simply no need for them to do that, since "points are points".


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 26, 2010)

Reading some more of the comments here. Greatly appreciate the insights and reactions offered by others as it helps me focus my still fuzzy mind. But I am slowly getting up to speed as I call Consumer Advocacy which gives me a link to a webinar which lays out the VC plan as it is called -- it was probably buried there in the owners section but I simply could not dig  it out.

My reaction about Marriott rollinig out a new program is :

Marriott  remains in the timeshare business with a solid product. This is good news for all of us
This new Vacation Club (VC) product has taken Marriott a lot of thought and a great deal of time to hone and shape.
The bottom line appears to me that this is where the future lies simply because Marriott wills it.  In short, Marriott will "train" us to embrace/accept/adapt to the new VC product.  So it is not a matter of 'if' but rather one of 'when'. ( I say this simply as a statement of what I perceive as an outcome & not as a negative allusion or a damning prophecy  -- free markets are always free to reject a product )
Of course Marriott wants all of us to walk through that VC door voluntarily, hence they leave the door open and smile broadly while insisting that we don't have to do anything. Marriott has simply laid it's cards on the table for all to see as they cross their fingers & hope that "Mikey Likes It ".  
The wildcard for Marriott is uncertainty about how quickly folks will sign up for the VC program as only Marriott knows how many early adopters they need to make the program viable -- in this sense the dank economy gives them a leg up since they hold a lot of inventory to feed the new program. In this sense, it was a good time to roll out the new VC product.
Being the credible corporation that they are, Marriott attempts to craft a product concept that MVC owners can either readily embrace, slowly accept, or consign themselves to as momentum builds for VC. 
This program will work for some, have little effect for others, and perhaps dismantle the MVC strategies of others. With time, Marriott will likely get the game moved to their gym.

Unchanged is the fact that timeshare ownership continues to be all about destination travel. That is what Marriott sells, this is what we purchase as MVC owners.  Marriott is simply showing us how they want all of us to play the game in the future as they attempt to guide us into a new program which melds their MVC product more closely into the larger hotel/travel component under which MVC is subsumed. They are trying to obtain the sort of inventory flows that they want ( and believe that they can achieve by working with owners ). For we MVC owers, it's more a matter of what's in it for us, does it have value, and how might the future devalue this new program?

We are all in a period of change, -- all of this occuring whilst the economy is still in the doldrums and the real esate market remains unhealed. This in turn shrouds the entire resale market in a fog which obscures what the relative worth of a MVC or any TS week really is  -- I don't think that a real answer to this question exists at the moment although prices do indeed exist -- I'm not sure that they reflect anything about the market as much as they reflect a mood of the moment which remains gloomy.  If the economy heals a bit and a sort of price stability returns to real estate in hard hit places like Florida etc., then we TS folks can get a relative handle upon values  which will bring clarity to the resale value of weeks relatvie to the new VC program. At this point, I'm not sure what this does, but my gut says that it's possible that this will stabalize the resale market if an existing owner is trying to top off a portfolio and seeks a less expensive resale week which if they choose, will require a modest buy-in to assimilate that week into VC. In any case,  resale remains a better alternative to developer pricing even if the spread is $1200 between the buy-ins.

Barry


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## brigechols (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I realize the Marriott can snag weeks from Interval. But I believe they can snag those weeks for both points members and legacy members in their program. Marriott will manage the weeks exchanges along with the points exchanges. If I'm requesting a week to week exchange inside the new program I'm of the belief that Marriott can snag that week for me, a member of the program, in order to fullfill my exchange.



What do you mean by "snag those weeks"? As I read the disclosure document for the II Exchange Program for the Marriott  points members and Marriott non-points members, Marriott has to request inventory from II if it cannot fill a request through inventory available through the points program. Once Marriott has to turn to II to fulfill a request, a Marriott points member is on equal footing with Marriott non-points members in terms of priority for fulfilling the request.  The factors for determining priority of a request are listed in the document and include supply and demand for the requested week, quality of the week and resort relinquished as compared to quality of the week and resort requested, when the exchange request is received by II, the amount of time prior to the first date of occupancy in which the relinquished week is provided to II, and unit type and private sleeping capacity of relinquished week compared to unit type and private sleeping capacity of requested week.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 26, 2010)

good morning....

MVCD will be making the exchange request from II to get inventory for a "wait listed" points based internal request.  MVCD when confirmed, then gives the unit to the points customer. The question is not  if "weeks" owners are on "equal" footing with points" exchangers in  the "eyes" of II?, but if the "weeks" depositor in II is on equal footing with a large well funded bulk customer (MVCD).  Not to be cynical but,  who do you think will get confirmed first????


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## brigechols (Jun 26, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> MVCD will be making the exchange request from II to get inventory for a "wait listed" points based internal request.  MVCD when confirmed, then gives the unit to the points customer. The question is not  if "weeks" owners are on "equal" footing with points" exchangers in  the "eyes" of II?, but if the "weeks" depositor in II is on equal footing with a large well funded bulk customer (MVCD).  Not to be cynical but,  who do you think will get confirmed first????



With all due respect, that is your question and not mine. I am evaluating the written agreements to determine whether an unfulfilled request through the Marriott internal exchange program will permit that requester to leap frog over Marriott non-points member requests in II. Frankly, I do not see the mechanism to permit that action in the documentation.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 26, 2010)

Hi..


no disrespect taken.  However, I believe that we are both asking the same question!! You are asking if it is spelled out legally in the documents.  I am asking is it can be done with a "wink-wink", "nod-nod"exploitation of the fine print!!!  Perhaps there is something in the fine print that bumps MVCD to the head of the line in exchanges with II even if the deposit is "weaker". Perhaps bulk trading and multi unit exchanges will prevail over a single like/like fair II exchange....

I also question the legality of MVCD getting a unit from II in exchange, then in fact "renting it" for points or re-exchanging it to a member of the "destination club".  I am sure the legal fine print permits it, but it seems to ethically violate the no rental or re-exchange of exchanges clause


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## camachinist (Jun 26, 2010)

The ability for the casual user and member to discern what Marriott and II are doing behind the scenes will remain as it always has; relatively nebulous. 

I just got $1.14 from Expedia yesterday in a class-action settlement where they got their hand caught in the cookie jar. That's business. The goal is not to get caught 

*If* internal exchange inventory is searchable online and *if* the dynamic between II inventory and internal exchange inventory can be quantified and tracked, then, if the dynamic matches up in a positive way with my goals for non-occupancy ownership, I could be changing my mind about the points program wrt actually using it. Only time will tell


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## hipslo (Jun 26, 2010)

brigechols said:


> What do you mean by "snag those weeks"? As I read the disclosure document for the II Exchange Program for the Marriott  points members and Marriott non-points members, Marriott has to request inventory from II if it cannot fill a request through inventory available through the points program. Once Marriott has to turn to II to fulfill a request, a Marriott points member is on equal footing with Marriott non-points members in terms of priority for fulfilling the request.  The factors for determining priority of a request are listed in the document and include supply and demand for the requested week, quality of the week and resort relinquished as compared to quality of the week and resort requested, when the exchange request is received by II, the amount of time prior to the first date of occupancy in which the relinquished week is provided to II, and unit type and private sleeping capacity of relinquished week compared to unit type and private sleeping capacity of requested week.



Everything I have read suggests that Marriott will have the right to pull inventory from II and substitute other inventory for it, under the terms of the agreement between II and marriott.  The details of that agreement have not (and presumably will not) be made public. Marriott will likely pull inventory from II to fulfill points requests, and anticipated points requests.  

While I can't point you chapter and verse to the language that proves this, there are all sorts of references in the disclusure documents to concepts like "demand balancing".  What do you think that might mean?

We can all believe whatever we like.  The truth will become apparent, probably slowly at first, over the next couple of years.


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## hipslo (Jun 26, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> I also question the legality of MVCD getting a unit from II in exchange, then in fact "renting it" for points or re-exchanging it to a member of the "destination club".  I am sure the legal fine print permits it, but it seems to ethically violate the no rental or re-exchange of exchanges clause



The contract between marriott and II will provide for whatever marriott and II have agreed it will provide.  Forget all the rules that currently apply to you as an II member, those rules will only apply to marriott if they and II agree to those rules.


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## hipslo (Jun 26, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Perhaps there is something in the fine print that bumps MVCD to the head of the line in exchanges with II even if the deposit is "weaker".




If/ when marriott gives II 5 or 6 or 7 (pick your number) off season weeks in exchange for a single prime week, which they will likely have the ability to do under the marriott/ II agreement, so long as in the AGGREGATE the exchanged intervals have the same "value", why do you think they couldnt/ shouldn't be able to do that?  

Will it actually operate this way?  Who knows.  Though it would certainly be very valuable to the success of the new points program if it did.  Given that marriott and II just announced the execution of a new contract between them a few months ago, I suspect that all these sorts of issues are dealt with in detail in that agreement, and are dealt with in a way that marriott believes are advantageous to the success of the new points system.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

brigechols said:


> What do you mean by "snag those weeks"? As I read the disclosure document for the II Exchange Program for the Marriott  points members and Marriott non-points members, Marriott has to request inventory from II if it cannot fill a request through inventory available through the points program. Once Marriott has to turn to II to fulfill a request, a Marriott points member is on equal footing with Marriott non-points members in terms of priority for fulfilling the request.  The factors for determining priority of a request are listed in the document and include supply and demand for the requested week, quality of the week and resort relinquished as compared to quality of the week and resort requested, when the exchange request is received by II, the amount of time prior to the first date of occupancy in which the relinquished week is provided to II, and unit type and private sleeping capacity of relinquished week compared to unit type and private sleeping capacity of requested week.



While what you're saying is true, who do you think understands the exchange system better and who do you think is the bigger contract/member with Interval? I don't believe this will be equal footing, even though it very well may be. I believe that Marriott is going to have a distinct adantage to get what they want. I also believe the Marriott is not going to screw over the owners who choose not to join. I believe, but could be wrong, that there will be a delicate balance set forth by Interval and Marriott to keep all owners happy. But like I've said in the past, I've been wrong before.

By joining now I can keep both doors open and see how this all shakes out. If I'm wrong then I'm out $695 plus the yearly membership fee's. If all things are kept equal (which is what I hope happens), then I've picked up some flexibility, cut the cost of fee's and given up nothing as far as weeks based exchanges, locking-off and home resort advantage. I'm at a point where I believe that only thing I'm risking is approx. $1,000 and potentially gaining the best of both worlds between weeks and points based exchanges.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

hipslo said:


> If/ when marriott gives II 5 or 6 or 7 (pick your number) off season weeks in exchange for a single prime week, which they will likely have the ability to do under the marriott/ II agreement, so long as in the AGGREGATE the exchanged intervals have the same "value", why do you think they couldnt/ shouldn't be able to do that?



If I'm not mistaken, removing prime weeks and replacing them with multiple "dog" weeks (for rentals) was one practice RCI agreed to stop as part of the class action settlement.  I believe they have now agreed to replace removed weeks with weeks of equal value on a "one-for-one" basis.  That's not saying RCI was statutorily obligated to cease and desist their prior practice, but I personally don't think they gave up anything unless they were afraid the practice would be struck down by a court of law.  Just sayin'.... 

Florida law used to provide for owners having the right to demand to see the exchange agreement between the exchange company and the developer/manager.  Not sure if it still does (lots of changes to Florida law in the last year or so ....... coincidence?).


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I realize the Marriott can snag weeks from Interval. But I believe they can snag those weeks for both points members and legacy members in their program. Marriott will manage the weeks exchanges along with the points exchanges. If I'm requesting a week to week exchange inside the new program I'm of the belief that Marriott can snag that week for me, a member of the program, in order to fullfill my exchange.
> 
> If I'm outside the program then I'm competing with Marriott as you're suggesting. It's a fine line and is definately a risk but, $695 + $199 isn't that big of a risk to me. I look at it as being a bigger risk being on the outside looking in.
> 
> If it turns out that Marriott can't fullfill my exchange requests then the program will be a bust and I'll cancel my membership. It will be good money tossed after bad and I'll have learned yet another lesson.





brigechols said:


> What do you mean by "snag those weeks"? As I read the disclosure document for the II Exchange Program for the Marriott  points members and Marriott non-points members, Marriott has to request inventory from II if it cannot fill a request through inventory available through the points program. Once Marriott has to turn to II to fulfill a request, a Marriott points member is on equal footing with Marriott non-points members in terms of priority for fulfilling the request.  The factors for determining priority of a request are listed in the document and include supply and demand for the requested week, quality of the week and resort relinquished as compared to quality of the week and resort requested, when the exchange request is received by II, the amount of time prior to the first date of occupancy in which the relinquished week is provided to II, and unit type and private sleeping capacity of relinquished week compared to unit type and private sleeping capacity of requested week.



I have to agree with brigechols on this one. If you put in a week for week request Marriott, they will be going to II. You would be on equal footing with all other non enrolled owners. If Marriott has time available in points, they won't give up that time straight week for week. That would throw much of the need for a points chart out the window.

If you are enrolled and call Marriott to exchange week for week, that exchange goes through II. If they say it isn't available in II but they have it in points inventory, then they say you can pay X points to get it based on the points charts.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

brigechols said:


> With all due respect, that is your question and not mine. I am evaluating the written agreements to determine whether an unfulfilled request through the Marriott internal exchange program will permit that requester to leap frog over Marriott non-points member requests in II. Frankly, I do not see the mechanism to permit that action in the documentation.



It would be hard for me to believe that Marriott would effectively put in some type of "request-first" search that competes on an equal footing with all of the other on-going seaches.  I suspect that they will simply take the week they want as soon as it gets deposited before it ever makes it to the deposited inventory.  From what I keep being told, that is similar to what Starwoods does all of the time, and I have not heard of anyone taking Starwood to court over the issue.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 26, 2010)

good afternoon...

This is all swell!!!  I just wish MVCD would be upfront and stop telling me, that if i remain in "weeks" either as an enrollee or non-enrollee, I can still exchange in "weeks" via II and nothing changes...

Of course it does.  I get the new "II"  with diminished inventory!!!

About 3000 posts ago, this was my concern.  a shift from a devloper who sells and an exchange company that exchanges to a developer that now sells and exchanges (both directly thru pts... and indirectly via II)...


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*There are rules for you and for the big boys they really want to serve*



hipslo said:


> The contract between marriott and II will provide for whatever marriott and II have agreed it will provide.  Forget all the rules that currently apply to you as an II member, those rules will only apply to marriott if they and II agree to those rules.



Amen. 

II rules for non-individuals (groups/developers such as Marriott) are open to extremely unique provisions that fly in the face of rules you as a mere paying member must agree to follow.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Why We Aren't Enrolling*

To counter the original post and why we likely won't be enrolling.

Having looked at the program for the past week it just doesn't appear to be a product that will benefit us.

I don't know about everyone else, but for us $2000 isn't chump change. I just don't see where we would get a $2000 return on our investment.

The only reason we would ever consider enrolling would be to be able to exchange for Marriott Reward Points. However, I just don't think that even makes sense.

We own two Orlando weeks that only garner a little over 4100 points. There are very few situations where we can exchange like for like in our opinion. We can trade our weeks back to our own resort for less than the points they give us, but only for one month of the year. Even discounting the fact that we likely wouldn't be trading back to Orlando with this, there are very very few cases where a 2BR will get us a 2BR at another resort. When "locking off" in the new program it gets worse. There are absolutely no cases that will garner us four weeks of vacation for our points in two studios and two 1BRs. Unless of course I want Branson in winter, or Park City in spring/fall.

We almost exclusively lock off our weeks every year and trade those weeks for other off season weeks. Usually garnering four 1 or 2BR units. We have no children and don't plan to, so we can travel any time of the year we want. Preferably when the kids are in school  .

I don't think that those off season weeks we usually get will dry up in II. People who regularly travel in peak times because they have children in school will continue to do so with their weeks. They are not and likely can't change their travel patterns at this time. That may change, but I doubt the points program will cause a massive shift in the supply demand ratios.

That said, we should still be fairly successful getting the exchanges we have in the past. Booking and locking off decent off season week and exchanging it for similar or lower off season weeks. I don't see that changing for our situation. I anticipate still being able to get the upgrades in unit size.

Now I truly feel sorry for those that must travel during peak Christmas, Spring Break, or Summer weeks. Even if they own a high season, it is likely that Marriott did not give them enough points for them to travel at the same times they are used to (to any destination). Marriott did not give Platinum Orlando owners enough points to book the highest demand weeks anywhere. There are very few owners that got enough points to travel in the highest of demand times. These owners are between a rock and a hard place. They have several options, just continue to book what they do now, buy more points, or change their travel patterns. My guess is that they will just continue to book what they own.

Perhaps I am wrong in this whole analysis, and I know many people here will poke holes in it if I am.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> It would be hard for me to believe that Marriott would effectively put in some type of "request-first" search that competes on an equal footing with all of the other on-going seaches.  I suspect that they will simply take the week they want as soon as it gets deposited before it ever makes it to the deposited inventory.  From what I keep being told, that is similar to what Starwoods does all of the time, and I have not heard of anyone taking Starwood to court over the issue.



But if they do take a week back, they won't give it to an enrolled member on a week for week basis. Explain the purpose of the points charts if they were to do that?


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 26, 2010)

Some good questions arise here about exactly how Marriott is going to play this "dual program" game as they want folks to come to the VC program but will also juggle the "old program" dynamic assuring us that "all is well".  And let's face it, those sales folks are gonna smile and try to churn those new purchasers into the new program -- the best time since a new purchaser is vulnerable and susceptible to the pitch as the excitement of the sale is fresh.

*Transparency* is presently one of my big worries about this. I'm already discovering some alarming things as I break down our own ownership paradigm and compare the programs side by side. 

Here's what our own ownership situation shows:


Our Spain weeks are presently not eligible as legal impediments remain to be fixed.
Straight from the MVCI owner's site, I see that if I elect to join the new VC program, each of my 3 platinum oceanfront Oceana Palms weeks will fetch me *5100 *VC Points each.
Quoting straight from the *Marriott Vacation Club Collection 2011 to 2012 Chart*, I learn that if I try reserve the same exact platinum season weeks we occupy this present year under the "old" program  ( the two weeks following Presidents Week & a later week in March) , I will need 5900 VC points for each week to do so. In short, the VC program will give me 5100 VC points and require 5900 VC points to occupy at my home resort. My 3 weeks of ownership provides me 2 weeks
Checking the other remaining platinum season weeks availble at Oceana Palms requires 5225 VC points, 125 VC points less than I receive for my platinum week. So enrolling those weeks in the VC program means that our 3 Oceana Palms platinum weeks do confer not 3 weeks of platinum occupancy at Oceana Palms if I intend to occupy the platinum seaon in which I purchased.

I do a similar look see at *Ocean Pointe *where the news is a equally distressing. We receive *4325 VC Points * for our 2 BR platinum season ocean side week. The bulk of Ocean Pointe's platinum season weeks require *4725 VC Points *for a one week stay. Presidents Week requires *6175 VC Points* -- this is the only one which makes sense to me.

I'd suggest to other owners to play what if with their portfolios and see if their multiple week MVC ownership suddenly becomes a process of subtraction in the VC Program.

So It looks to me as if this new VC Progam is definitely not the "Right Stuff" for any owner who regularly reserves and occupies at their home resort. Most assurredly, any Ocean Pointe platinum season owner who presently pursues a strategy of splitting their unit and locking off will definitely find that the "new" program is not for them.

Once again, Marriott has put their cards on the table revealing some very interesting things. Looking very carefully through the *Marriott Vacation Club Collection 2011-2012 Vacation Club Points Charts* will give all of us a hint about the relative trading power of specific weeks at specific resorts. We've always known that all resorts and all weeks are not necessarily equal in terms of demand even if they are in the same season. These charts put a face on that aspect.

I'd urge folks to slow down and look very carefully at the full portents of this new VC Program. I'd be curious as to how the various platinum and gold season math works out for an owner who generally wants to occupy at their resort with an occassional trade along the way.

My main worry is that Marriott shows us where they would love to take the entire MVC product as this is definitely a TS wish list on the developer side.  What we have here are competing views about the future of timeshare and how folks will utilize the product in the future. The "old" system is static in the sense that it requires 7 day stays and a stoic sense of travel planning. The new product is sleek and shiny, offering no limits on stays and the flexibility to fragment one's time.  But I'm alarmed right off the bat to get slapped in the face by this huge disincentive to join if I'm going to remain a "traditional" TS owner who basically wants to occupy a week at a time.  Not that I don't have my mind open to the flexibility aspect.  But sooner or later, these two views will rub up against each other and I think I know which side will prevail over time. Marriott should get this new program up and running as they have lots of surplus inventory in this dour economy. But when things pick up, I worry about these two views competing for the same weeks and the inability to see transparently what is going on behind the scenes. That said, it might take quite a while to hit that stage and the two programs can indeed coexist in a relative sense.

Folks should also look closely at the 3 tiers of membership in the VC Program ( determined by the aggregate of the VC Points conferred for enrolling your weeks ). The 13 month option is availible to all, but priviliges vary. The lower tier pays a 20% VC Points premium for 13 month reservations ( and must reserve 7 nights or more)  while the Premier tier may reserve 7 or more with no points premium and Premier Plus tier does the same with no limit upon days.  Make sure that you differentiate these benefits with the tier which your enrollment confers upon you.

Likewise read carefully the limits upon redeeming your VC Points for MR points. A specified percentage of your VC Points may be redeemed ( 50%, 65%, & 75% respectively depending upon your membership tier ) -- 250 VC Points = 8000 MR points. Although the fee appears less, it may not necessarily be worth it unless you redeem the equivilant of 2 or more weeks. On a straight up one week trade for MR Points, an Ocean Pointe platinum week which in the old system nets you 120,000 MR Points ( plus the exchange fee ) whilst under the new VC program an "owner ( low tier ) receives 69,200 MR points for the same week. ( 4325 VC Ocean Pointe 2BR OS plat  x 50%  = 2162 divide by 250 = 8.65 x 8000 = 69200 ). A Premier Plus OP owner would receive 103,800 MR Points for the same week.

No need to rush to be a first adopter here. Read the information closely and ponder your usage strategy and habits to determine if you want to try the new program. If you like to jump around a lot and do short stays, then the new program might be for you. But take note that you are purchasing a "Beneficial Interest in the Trust" ( that's what Marriott calls the program ). Take the time to think carefully while always being mindful of your overall usage strategy and assure yourself that the nuts and bolts in this program will indeed deliver what you seek.

Barry


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## timeos2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Deal's R Us if you're big enough*



hipslo said:


> If/ when marriott gives II 5 or 6 or 7 (pick your number) off season weeks in exchange for a single prime week, which they will likely have the ability to do under the marriott/ II agreement, so long as in the AGGREGATE the exchanged intervals have the same "value", why do you think they couldnt/ shouldn't be able to do that?
> 
> Will it actually operate this way?  Who knows.  Though it would certainly be very valuable to the success of the new points program if it did.  Given that marriott and II just announced the execution of a new contract between them a few months ago, I suspect that all these sorts of issues are dealt with in detail in that agreement, and are dealt with in a way that marriott believes are advantageous to the success of the new points system.



A small handful of posters were trying to say that the new II/Marriott deal meant there wasn't going to be any Marriott points system.  Most discounted that idea and may have realized a new agreement was part of the precursor to the interface between that new points based system and a source / depository for high demand / unwanted times Marriott would need to obtain or dispose of at times. The second group turned out to be right as we all know now and II followed past moves with a custom contract to keep Marriott in the fold. They for some reason refuse to negotiate special terms with me when I threaten to end my membership with them. Maybe my few weeks don't have the  same clout as thousands and exclusive access  to a large system offered by Marriott?


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> But if they do take a week back, they won't give it to an enrolled member on a week for week basis. Explain the purpose of the points charts if they were to do that?



I guess I don't see your point here.  If I want to go to Maui one year; and as a enrolled member with sufficient points to cover my request, I put in a request for 7 nights starting on a given Friday at a specific resort, and an owner deposits exactly that week at exactly the resort I requested, why would they not raid II if the request cannot be fulfilled from other inventories?  The points charts only define how many points I need to make the request.  You can think of that as their "taking back" the deposited week and adding it to the available inventory that they can fill enrolled member requests from.

Perhaps, it will not work that way at all.  All of this is kind of speculative at this time anyway.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I guess I don't see your point here.  If I want to go to Maui one year; and as a enrolled member with sufficient points to cover my request, I put in a request for 7 nights starting on a given Friday at a specific resort, and an owner deposits exactly that week at exactly the resort I requested, why would they not raid II if the request cannot be fulfilled from other inventories?  The points charts only define how many points I need to make the request.  You can think of that as their "taking back" the deposited week and adding it to the available inventory that they can fill enrolled member requests from.
> 
> Perhaps, it will not work that way at all.  All of this is kind of speculative at this time anyway.




I guess neither of us got each others point. I was under the assumption that Doug as an enrolled member thought he could put up as an example an Orlando week and ask for a Hawaii week. If that Hawaii week was available in II, then Marriott would grab it and give it to him, week for week. That isn't the case, Doug would have to pony up the points actually needed for Marriott to take that Hawaii week back and give to him. Thus no week for week trade. Trade power is still a factor when trading week for week straight out.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

brigechols said:


> What do you mean by "snag those weeks"? As I read the disclosure document for the II Exchange Program for the Marriott  points members and Marriott non-points members, Marriott has to request inventory from II if it cannot fill a request through inventory available through the points program. Once Marriott has to turn to II to fulfill a request, a Marriott points member is on equal footing with Marriott non-points members in terms of priority for fulfilling the request.  The factors for determining priority of a request are listed in the document and include supply and demand for the requested week, quality of the week and resort relinquished as compared to quality of the week and resort requested, when the exchange request is received by II, the amount of time prior to the first date of occupancy in which the relinquished week is provided to II, and unit type and private sleeping capacity of relinquished week compared to unit type and private sleeping capacity of requested week.


When I read this one thing came to mind- since, in most cases, Marriott has given the owner a lower value for their week than the cost to book it, a weeks deposit will be considered lower in value then the point requests when looking to exchange into high demand weeks. I fully expect for any high demand request point owners to be considered as having higher value, unless a very high valued "week" is looking for the exchange. For example, 2 people are requesting a Ko'Olina week - one depositing the number of point needed for that week, and the other a Waiohai owner. Since Marriott hasn't allotted Waiohai owners enough points to book that week, which deposit do you think will have the "higher value" and get the trade?


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## Andar (Jun 26, 2010)

*Fence sitter*

sorry duplicate


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## winger (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> ...
> 
> However, there is likely a VERY different reality (as I said, I am awaiting confirmation, but it appears I am, unfortunately, not misunderstanding). True, I can reserve my high demand week in my season and deposit it to II- business as usual. You can do the same. In theory, if I request your high demand week and you request mine, if they are equal quality we should get first dibs and II should make the exchange, but....along comes Marriott. Marriott has a points owner who wants my high demand week that I just deposited and- guess who gets it? Although inventories are kept separate for initial reservations, it appears that anything goes in trading, and *Marriott has free access to fill point owner's requests with week owner's deposits. So who is that prime week going to go to?*....



I know what you are implying, but where are you getting this info?

All I have read so far is the following, and this does not indicate Marriott (when looking for a week for a Points owner's request) will be jumping ahead of everyone on the exchange/request waiting list for a resort:

From the Interval International Buyers Guide.pdf, page 9 of 29, section Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities, items 1 and 2.

The only thing I question is _where _in an existing II exchange/request line the Marriott Points Program Manager's request will sit.  Is it last? Is it top? Middle ?



> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
> ...


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

winger said:


> I know what you are implying, but where are you getting this info?
> 
> All I have read so far is the following, and this does not indicate Marriott (when looking for a week for a Points owner's request) will be jumping ahead of everyone on the exchange/request waiting list for a resort:
> 
> Would the following help?  From Interval International Buyers Guide.pdf, page 9 of 29, section Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities, items 1 and 2.



ok- let me explain what I am pondering- we both agree that it appears that this wording allows them to take a week owner's deposit to fill a point request- right? btw- I have someone looking into this, but his initial impression that this was, in fact, the way it works (I will post here when I receive the official answer). If, in fact, that is true, then the question is who has the most trading power or pull-right?

Comparing Marriott's pull to your pull- there's no contest there. But let's say they are objectifying "pull"- kinda like who has the higher trade value. I want to use my Aruba week to trade into Ocean Pointe (which should, as far as I'm concerned, be more than an even trade- since Marriott itself charges double to rent the same night in Aruba as in Palm Beach, but - in actuality- OP was awarded 250 more points than a Plat. SC week). Now, a point owner deposits the 4725 points that Marriott requires to book that OP week that we both want. Whose request has higher trade value, and is more likely to get the trade?

I will give another example- an Ocean Pointe owner deposits his Plat. week (which Marriott has allotted 4325 points to), and decides he wants to trade for another week in his/her season because he couldn't book the week he wanted, or plans changed since booking. That scenario has happened hundreds of times. Now, he deposits exactly the same value week he is requesting- right? Hmmm- or does he??? Now, Marirott has only allocated him 4325 points for his week, and even though he is trading a week and not points, it still has a lower trade value than the points owner who is willing to ante up 4725 points to make the trade. So, I ask again, who is more likely to get the trade?

And that's why I feel that even week owners, using their weeks to trade in II, are going to be at a big disadvantage when looking for even equal valued weeks (because Marriott already devalued their week's value by giving lower point value, at least at some properties, than an owner needs to book ANY week in their season.

As I said, I don't know if this is fact, BUT if they can take owner's week's deposits to fill point requests, as much as the reps like to tell you it only adds an option and increases flexibility, but you can still do everything the same as now, I believe this totally changes the landscape- whether you opt into the new program or not.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> . . . then the question is who has the most trading power or pull-right?
> 
> Comparing Marriott's pull to your pull- there's no contest there. But let's say they are objectifying "pull"- kinda like who has the higher trade value. I want to use my Aruba week to trade into Ocean Pointe (which should, as far as I'm concerned, be more than an even trade- since Marriott itself charges double to rent the same night in Aruba as in Palm Beach, but - in actuality- OP was awarded 250 more points than a Plat. SC week). Now, a point owner deposits the 4725 points that Marriott requires to book that OP week that we both want. Whose request has higher trade value, and is more likely to get the trade?



Actually, I seriously doubt that it will ever come to any trading power comparison.  If there is a request from a enrolled points customer for the same trade you want, I'm betting the deposit will never make it into the II seachable inventory at all.  It will most likely get siphoned off by Marriott and dropped into the points inventory to fill the points request.  So, my conjecture (and its only a conjecture) is that there won't be any prioritizing of the II searches because the non-enrolled member search will never get any shot at the desired week.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Actually, I seriously doubt that it will ever come to any trading power comparison.  If there is a request from a enrolled points customer for the same trade you want, I'm betting the deposit will never make it into the II seachable inventory at all.  It will most likely get siphoned off by Marriott and dropped into the points inventory to fill the points request.  So, my conjecture (and its only a conjecture) is that there won't be any prioritizing of the II searches because the non-enrolled member search will never get any shot at the desired week.



Unfortunately, I agree. I was just trying to illustrate why even if they were using a fair trading power comparison, the week's owner was still behind.

It looks like Marriott will successfully be able to work the system to their advantage. Request first deposits may be the exception and we may find that they have enhanced trading value. That remains to be seen.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Actually, I seriously doubt that it will ever come to any trading power comparison.  If there is a request from a enrolled points customer for the same trade you want, I'm betting the deposit will never make it into the II seachable inventory at all.  It will most likely get siphoned off by Marriott and dropped into the points inventory to fill the points request.  So, my conjecture (and its only a conjecture) is that there won't be any prioritizing of the II searches because the non-enrolled member search will never get any shot at the desired week.


I've been trying to come up with a way to say exactly this and I couldn't agree more with what you've written.  I really do think this is way it is going to be going forward.  Maybe not right away but it will happen more often as more owners continue to enroll.  Just my opinion based on what I've read so far...

Y-ASK


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## Y-ASK (Jun 26, 2010)

Given the fact that trading power is probably not going to be what it once was, how would you protect yourself if you're a single week owner from premier owners, premier plus owners, and their 13 month advantage?

Buying more points to become a premier owner is not in the budget.

If there is a resort that you really want to stay at year after year, would it be wise to purchase a Platinum week resale at that resort and then could you do a 13 month concurrent reservation between the two resorts you would now own thus making yourself equal to the premier level as far as making a 13 month reservation is concerned?  Is the 13 month rule for multi-week owners still being offered?

Just thing out loud.

Y-ASK


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 26, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> Given the fact that trading power is probably not going to be what it once was, how would you protect yourself if you're a single week owner from premier owners, premier plus owners, and their 13 month advantage?
> 
> Buying more points to become a premier owner is not in the budget.



Well, you don't buy points to achieve owner status in the new program. One enrolls their weeks and the VC points that one receives are determined by the the specific resort, season, and type of villa that you own. It's the aggregate of points of enrolled resorts which determines which ownership tier you receive.  Folks who want more points must either purchase more MVC weeks or borrow points from future years.

Single week owners may also exercise the 13 month reservation option in the new program, but in a narrower sense than "Premier Owners" or "Premier Plus" owners.  In your case:



> When reserving 13 months in advance of desired check-in . . . inventory is released on Tuesdays . . .  < you >  must reserve 7 or more nights using *premium points* <that is> 20% additional VC points."


.

Even for a 12 month advance reservation, an owner at this lowest tier is also required to reserve 7 or more nights ( inventory released on Fridays ) but without the premium points requirement.  At the 10th month window, a lowest tier owner may reserve one or more nights.

If you want more "power" as a single week owner in this new program, about all you can do is "Borrow" points up to 25 months prior to your own use year -- this of course means that you sacrifice your next couple of years of points ( and vacations ).

Check the points you will receive for enrolling your resort and then check how many points you would be required to use in order to reserve at your home resort in your native season. You might be receiving less points for your own resort than you need to get in the door.

This new program is not for everyone as significant limitations do indeed exist.

Barry


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## JimIg23 (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Request first deposits may be the exception and we may find that they have enhanced trading value. That remains to be seen.



If I join the new system or not, I think I will only be doing request first from now on until we have time here to see if deeded week trading power has changed.

However, one postive note.  I have two on-going searches for HI.  I deposited my MHZ and NCV, both strong platinum weeks.  I was told by a II rep a few days ago I had enough trading power to secure a HI 2 bedroom summer for both weeks if they come up.  The question will be will owners deposit their weeks now?


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## mauiwowie (Jun 27, 2010)

*Please Do Let  Us know if you get a 2bd HI for MHZ*

I do like that the points required seem to be a truer reflection of actual value than the II system where bigger is better seems to prevail.  Personally, I would rather stay in a studio on the beach at MOC than a two bedroom in Orlando, but if someone at II told you MHZ was a strong trade to Maui in the summer, this would be a good indicator of whether the "new" system is rigged, because the points Marriott is giving me for my 2BD MMO lahaina tower won't cover the number of points it would take me to stay there in summer because it is such high demand.  Good luck and keep us posted.

BTW, I've talked with many MVCI reps recently and while they all fed me the party line that "nothing has changed with what I own", when pressed they all admitted that the II inventory was undoubtedly going to change (just no one knows quite yet how dramatically).  One rep even told me that Marriott planned to "buy" inventory from II to give to folks using points.  

The reality is that people who opt not to join the new program will continue to "have a chance to get some week at their resort during the season they purchased" (no one with a floating week was every guaranteed to get a specific week) and they will continue to "have the option to deposit weeks in II with the hope that a match will be made" (since a match is never guaranteed).  This is all we were ever promised and this is all we could ever expect to get.  So really "nothing has changed" as the party line goes.  But in reality the way we've been doing things will change whether we're happy about it or n:annoyed: ot.


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## bobpark56 (Jun 27, 2010)

_Quote:
Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member._

"II will issue" seems to say that the Club Program Manager gets to jump to the head of the line in II, ahead of anyone waiting for a deposit-first request for that same unit to be filled. Am I reading this wrong?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 27, 2010)

bobpark56 said:


> _Quote:
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members *requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> ...



This is only for points requests. There was question ealier about weeks requests through II. Not sure if that was what you were getting at.


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## indyhorizons (Jun 27, 2010)

mauiwowie said:


> I do like that the points required seem to be a truer reflection of actual value than the II system where bigger is better seems to prevail.  Personally, I would rather stay in a studio on the beach at MOC than a two bedroom in Orlando, but if someone at II told you MHZ was a strong trade to Maui in the summer, this would be a good indicator of whether the "new" system is rigged, because the points Marriott is giving me for my 2BD MMO lahaina tower won't cover the number of points it would take me to stay there in summer because it is such high demand.  Good luck and keep us posted.



Its possible. My MHZ traded to Ko Olina on exchange.  Took about 6 months to confirm...  So don't be so sure that your assumption is accurate...


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

bobpark56 said:


> _Quote:
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> ...



I do not read this language as stating the Club Program Manager gets to jump to the head of the line in II.  

So the Club Program Manager sits on a set of points relinquished for an exchange and that exchange cannot be fulfilled through Club inventory, then what will the Club provide II in exchange for the requested unit?


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## camachinist (Jun 28, 2010)

> So the Club Program Manager sits on a set of points relinquished for an exchange and that exchange cannot be fulfilled through Club inventory, then what will the Club provide II in exchange for the requested unit?



A December developer week in Branson comes to mind, or a fabulous summer developer week in sunny Palm Springs. The developer weeks, all owned by the trust, can be rented, deposited, exchanged, whatever. Marriott owns the whole shebang


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## dioxide45 (Jun 28, 2010)

camachinist said:


> A December developer week in Branson comes to mind, or a fabulous summer developer week in sunny Palm Springs. The developer weeks, all owned by the trust, can be rented, deposited, exchanged, whatever. Marriott owns the whole shebang



But they may need to offer up two or three of those December Branson weeks, just to be fair.


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## m61376 (Jun 28, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> But they may need to offer up two or three of those December Branson weeks, just to be fair.



Wow- so that means the weeks owner, who requested that nice prime week that Marriott just nabbed to fill the point request, can get 2 or 3 off peak weeks...oh, wait, they can get only one anyway. What a deal  Well, at least maybe they won't have to pay an exchange fee to II (or maybe they will- that too needs to be clarified).

I hope we are reading this wrong, but the exec. offices rep. who is looking into this unfortunately thought that is the case, but will be confirming.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 28, 2010)

bobpark56 said:


> _Quote:
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> ...



This is one of the main reasons I was considering jumping plus the one fee covers all lock-off and exchanges.

BUT, it has come to my attention that the club rules state that owners utilizing the weeks exchange rather than converting the weeks into points and exchanging via points will continue to pay the same old exchange fee's.

Well, if that's the case, thanks but not thanks. I'll just keep things the way they are, use my master suites, utilize request first with our 1 bedroom lock-off and do online searches with our studio unit. It's not so important to me that we stay at Marriott resorts on exchange for me to pay them additional money for a program which gives me fewer points than I need to stay in my own season at my own resort. 

I see no advantage to the new program if Marriott plans on charging ala carte pricing UNLESS you convert your weeks to points and exchange using their points. I'll get FAR less with points than continuing to utilize weeks. Marriott really needs to get their act together and get their story straight. I'm losing a lot of faith in them as a management company. It could be time to urge our HOA's to hire someone else to clean the toilet bowels.


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> ....
> 
> BUT, it has come to my attention that the club rules state that owners utilizing the weeks exchange rather than converting the weeks into points and exchanging via points will continue to pay the same old exchange fee's.
> ...
> I see no advantage to the new program if Marriott plans on charging ala carte pricing UNLESS you convert your weeks to points and exchange using their points. I'll get FAR less with points than continuing to utilize weeks. ....



Doug. What indicated this?  I was informed by three reps (sales, voa, advocacy) that II requests for internal exchanges (meaning to other Marriott resorts) were covered by the annual Club fee of $165 (or $199).

Really, this program is so hard to understand. Reminds me of my cell phone company, call 10 reps, get 4 different answers.


One prudent thing to do is to wait for the Jul 26, 2010 when trading in the new system opens up. Then call and ask the Marriott VOA what the internal-Marriott trade using your week (versus Desitnation points) costs.


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## Dave M (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> Doug. What indicated this?  I was informed by three reps (sales, voa, advocacy) that II requests for internal exchanges (meaning to other Marriott resorts) were covered by the annual Club fee of $165 (or $199).


There is a conflict in written info on the MVCI website. The explanation states that internal exchange fees are included in Club Dues, just as you were told.

However, the language on page 5 of the II buyers guide related to the new program ( https://www.my-vacationclub.com/comm..._guide2010.pdf ) states that for "those Club Program Exchange Members who choose to continue to receive exchange benefits from II based on the relinquishment of a Week" (top of second column), "An exchange fee, however, is required when placing an exchange request against the deposited accommodations." Bullet #8 on page 10 states that the internal exchange fee is $109.

I'm trying to find out the correct answer, but it might take two more days.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 28, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> As a result of my strike, I decided to give SFX a try despite the fact that I don't like their lack of online search capability.  I traded a one-BR prime Starwood week ($500 maint fee) for the Manhattan Club (probably would have received one of the Hiltons if I had asked earlier) and received 2 bonus weeks (one good in Mexico only, but it got a prime spring break week at a gold crown resort).  Not a bad deal.
> 
> I know ... I know ... SFX doesn't have the Marriott preference period.  But, you all have HUGE strength in numbers.  How long do you think it will take for SFX to guarantee you a Marriott preference period (I bet they're working on a business plan as we speak!).  And, if you give them enough business, maybe they'll finally build that online search capability they desperately need!



Don't ignore jerseygirl's advice, everyone.  If SFX started getting 1,000's of weeks per year from TUG members, they would cater to you.  Why allow II and Marriott to ruin what you have always enjoyed?  

The only problem with SFX is they won't take anything but red weeks.  I don't know if they would ever consider changing it.  

You can always rent your weeks.  That was my choice for my Sheratons, and I could have rented many more than I did, too.


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There is a conflict in written info on the MVCI website. The explanation states that internal exchange fees are included in Club Dues, just as you were told.
> 
> However, the language on page 5 of the II buyers guide related to the new program ( https://www.my-vacationclub.com/comm..._guide2010.pdf ) states that for "those Club Program Exchange Members who choose to continue to receive exchange benefits from II based on the relinquishment of a Week" (top of second column), "An exchange fee, however, is required when placing an exchange request against the deposited accommodations." Bullet #8 on page 10 states that the internal exchange fee is $109.
> 
> I'm trying to find out the correct answer, but it might take two more days.


Thanks Dave. Getting answer to this one would really help since saving on exchange fees is a very important factor for us.  We are among the black sheep on TUG in that we bought mostly to exchange  

The somewhat discouraging thing is I repeatedly asked a sales rep, the advocacy rep, and owner services rep (sorry, I mistyped earlier, it was not a voa I spoke with) to point me out where in writing in the enrollment document(s) things they are claiming are printed.  None were able to. 

The advocacy rep said he has not read the docs, as a matter of fact a senior rep just came by his desk to log him into (through a  member's acct?) an account so the advocacy rep could have the enrollment docs in front of him when he called me (I had arranged a pre-set date/time to discuss my questions, some of which were based on pointing out to me where in the docs things were in print).  When pressed, he finally admitted he got his info from web-based training over the recent weeks, that he has not ready any of the five enrollment docs, not even the Points Chart!  The lamest explanation I got was from an owner services rep . She claimed the additional details I was seeking (such as the internal trading II fee if using weeks) will likely not be on the enrollment docs, but once I pay my fee and the docs are sent to me to sign. *Huh ???*    Oh, maybe this is even better, an owner services rep told me I "was trying to read too much into the documents. Nothing changes with this new program, it is just an add-on. LOL"

Marriott has not provided adequate training - or maybe they planned on using inconsistent answers to fog owners' minds forcing people to buy based on Fear and Uncertainty?


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

brigechols said:


> I do not read this language as stating the Club Program Manager gets to jump to the head of the line in II.
> 
> So the Club Program Manager sits on a set of points relinquished for an exchange and that exchange cannot be fulfilled through Club inventory, then what will the Club provide II in exchange for the requested unit?



Just got off the phone with Owner Services.  Whew! There are three separate buckets of inventory: Bucket A represents the developer weeks held by the Trust, Bucket B represents weeks turned over to Marriott in exchange for MRP or vacation club points, and Bucket C represents weeks deposited in II by non-Club member. 

If a Club member submits a request for a week and the request cannot be filled by inventory in Bucket A or Bucket B, then Marriott will submit a request to II for inventory in Bucket C.  If the request cannot be filled by II, then the Club member goes on a wait list [Marriott and II] for the first available inventory to fill the request in Bucket A, B, or C.  With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue. If the requested week exists in Bucket C and II fills the request, Marriott will give II "the best possible week in the requestor's season" from the pool of available weeks in Bucket A or Bucket B that represents a similar value to the relinquished week/points.


{music playing while I sing} 
    There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,
    There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, a hole.
    Then fix it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
    Then fix it, dear Henry, dear Henry, fix it.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 28, 2010)

good morning...

If this is  in fact correct, you can forget about ever seeing a "primo" week in II Flexchange as once "trading power" is out of the equation these units will ALL go to MVCD...


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## camachinist (Jun 28, 2010)

Really good news. Have a Marriott lawyer boil that down to a legal statement and include it in the documents that I'll sign. Thanks 

<_otherwise, it's just electrons_>

We already know Marriott *can* manipulate the back-end inventory to their advantage and, short of a whistleblower with proof, there's nothing we can really do about it. The clear mandate is to get a concrete *policy* regarding their perspective, as a point of reference to make an informed decision as to how to perceive the risk of manipulation. Business 101


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Just got off the phone with Owner Services.  Whew! There are three separate buckets of inventory: Bucket A represents the developer weeks held by the Trust, Bucket B represents weeks turned over to Marriott in exchange for MRP or vacation club points, and Bucket C represents weeks deposited in II by non-Club member.
> 
> If a Club member submits a request for a week and the request cannot be filled by inventory in Bucket A or Bucket B, then Marriott will submit a request to II for inventory in Bucket C.  If the request cannot be filled by II, then the Club member goes on a wait list [Marriott and II] for the first available inventory to fill the request in Bucket A, B, or C.  With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue. If the requested week exists in Bucket C and II fills the request, Marriott will give II "the best possible week in the requestor's season" from the pool of available weeks in Bucket A or Bucket B that represents a similar value to the relinquished week/points.




my sales rep adamently stated twice (on different days) alluded to the when an enrolled Club member deposits his week to II as a weekly exchange candidate, since that member goes through the Marriott Destination Club VOA (NOT the same as the current VOA, whatever that means) to deposit the week into II, *if *there is already a pending request for that week by a Destination Club points owner (either using points or weekly request), that newly deposited week may easily be pulled and never given the chance to hit the "normal" II inventory.

This said, in respect to your comment:  "With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue" ,     where is it stated in writing Marriott will not jump to the top of the pack?  I have not found anything in writing to this effect yet (but I have not read even 25% of all the docs yet, either) and no rep has been able to confirm for me one way or another.

Don't get me wrong, what you said mostly lines up with what I have been told by Marriott reps and what I have read, and what makes sense/fairest, BUT enough ambiguity exists in the the mechanics of this new program (e.g. where in a II request line the points request goes) really has me somewhat skeptical.


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## WelcomeHome (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> Marriott has not provided adequate training - or maybe they planned on using inconsistent answers to fog owners' minds forcing people to buy based on Fear and Uncertainty?



I sincerely believe that's a big part of their plan. They need owners to enroll for their plan to succeed, but since their plan provides nothing but reductions and deductions for existing owners, their only alternative is to hope fear and confusion will pursuade us.

Best wishes,
David


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## dougp26364 (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> my sales rep adamently stated twice (on different days) alluded to the when an enrolled Club member deposits his week to II as a weekly exchange candidate, since that member goes through the Marriott Destination Club VOA (NOT the same as the current VOA, whatever that means) to deposit the week into II, *if *there is already a pending request for that week by a Destination Club points owner (either using points or weekly request), that newly deposited week may easily be pulled and never given the chance to hit the "normal" II inventory.
> 
> This said, in respect to your comment:  "With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue" ,     where is it stated in writing Marriott will not jump to the top of the pack?  I have not found anything in writing to this effect yet (but I have not read even 25% of all the docs yet, either) and no rep has been able to confirm for me one way or another.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, what you said mostly lines up with what I have been told by Marriott reps and what I have read, and what makes sense/fairest, BUT enough ambiguity exists in the the mechanics of this new program (e.g. where in a II request line the points request goes) really has me somewhat skeptical.



Let's see, Marriott has a huge corporate account with I.I. and, I.I. has compitition from RCI (RCI already successfully pulled DVC from I.I.), what do you think indivicual members chances are against Marriott's exchange coortinator? 

Sure I could be wrong but, no one at Marriott is confirming this isn't the case. Instead when you ask this as a direct question you get some canned responce which dances completely around the question when a yes/no answer would end speculation.

My guess is Marriott knows the true answer will tick off 400,000 existing members. Marriott just needs to tell us the truth, even if the truth hurts.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 28, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> I sincerely believe that's a big part of their plan. They need owners to enroll for their plan to succeed, but since their plan provides nothing but reductions and deductions for existing owners, their only alternative is to hope fear and confusion will pursuade us.
> 
> Best wishes,
> David



I think this is a misconception. Even if no current owners join, they've set the program up so that new points owners can still gain access to legacy owners weeks which have been deposited into Interval.

New points owners aren't going to know any different. They'll buy the amount of need for the vacations they want. Marriott doesn't need current owners to join except to cover the start up cost and ongoing management costs of the program.

That 20% or 25% figure that keeps getting tossed around. My bet is that's the number of owners Marriott needs to reach break even on the start up costs and ongoing yearly management costs. If that's the case, I'm thinking they should have been more concise, more direct and laid out a better program for current owners. Otherwise it might be a tougher sell than they thought to reach their anticipated figures.


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> This said, in respect to your comment:  "With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue" ,     where is it stated in writing Marriott will not jump to the top of the pack?  I have not found anything in writing to this effect yet (but I have not read even 25% of all the docs yet, either) and no rep has been able to confirm for me one way or another.



I have not found such a statement and in fact, it would be unusual to have such a statement in the documents.  If the statement exists anywhere, it would be in the contract between Marriott and II.


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There is a conflict in written info on the MVCI website. The explanation states that internal exchange fees are included in Club Dues, just as you were told.
> 
> However, the language on page 5 of the II buyers guide related to the new program ( https://www.my-vacationclub.com/comm..._guide2010.pdf ) states that for "those Club Program Exchange Members who choose to continue to receive exchange benefits from II based on the relinquishment of a Week" (top of second column), "An exchange fee, however, is required when placing an exchange request against the deposited accommodations." Bullet #8 on page 10 states that the internal exchange fee is $109.
> 
> I'm trying to find out the correct answer, but it might take two more days.


I ran into this, page 8 of the II Buyers Guide:


> *
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities*
> 4. Club Program Exchange Members choosing to relinquish a Week and
> Individual Members requesting an exchange only to a Marriott Resort may
> ...




This seems to state II internal weekly exchange requests are *no charge to the member giving up a week to II for exchanging*.  But, what I do not understand is:
Individual Members will be obligated to
remit the Marriott Internal Exchange Fee to II on their own behalf.


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> I ran into this, page 8 of the II Buyers Guide:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right, no charge to the Club Program Exchange Member for an internal Marriott exchange. Non-club members have to pay II the $109 Marriott Internal Exchange Fee.


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

Below is the written response from Owner Services:

_Thank you for contacting Marriott Vacation Club International.

I understand you have questions regarding how the Club Program Manager works with Interval International in order to confirm an owner on a waitlist for their desired vacation.  The Club Program Manager does offer Interval International a similar week to your home week.  It may or may not be your exact week, but it is a comparable exchange of weeks between Interval International and the Club Program Manager.  Keep in mind that if you select your usage as week for week, the week goes directly to Interval International.    For Trust members, the Club Program Manager also offers comparable weeks back to Interval International based on the point value needed for the reservation.

If you have any questions or concerns, please visit us via our website at www.my-vacationclub.com.

Best regards,


Kelly R.
Correspondence Counselor
Marriott Vacation Club International
owner.services@vacationclub.com _


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## Carlsbadguy (Jun 28, 2010)

I own Oceanfront 1 bedroom at Kaui Beach Club for which Marriott will give me 3375 points.  It will cost me 3800-3900 points for the weeks I want in my Oceanfront unit and even more if I want to split it into 2 units.  I bought this unit resale, so there is appeal in having the ability to excahnge for Marritt Reward points, but I can buy them thru Marriott for less than my maintenece fee and other fees.

I also own a Silver week at Summit watch for which I only get 1400 points which really wouldn't get me much.  Right now I lock it off and get 2 units- this year studio at Summit Watch end of Sundance and 1 Bedroom Desert Springs May.  I have also gotten Aruba, Hawaii and mutiple Florida exchanges with this week.  Many times trading the studio for a 1 or 2 bedroom.
The one advantage I see is my MF will go down, but other than that I don't see any other advantages.


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## urple2 (Jun 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Let's see, Marriott has a huge corporate account with I.I. and, I.I. has compitition from RCI (RCI already successfully pulled DVC from I.I.), what do you think indivicual members chances are against Marriott's exchange coortinator?
> 
> Sure I could be wrong but, no one at Marriott is confirming this isn't the case. Instead when you ask this as a direct question you get some canned responce which dances completely around the question when a yes/no answer would end speculation.
> 
> My guess is Marriott knows the true answer will tick off 400,000 existing members. Marriott just needs to tell us the truth, even if the truth hurts.



I can't get Interval to respond to that question either.


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## rsackett (Jun 28, 2010)

Carlsbadguy said:


> ...The one advantage I see is my MF will go down, but other than that I don't see any other advantages.



Your MF stay the same.  You still pay the MF based on your deeded weeks.  Or did you mean your trading fees?

By the way do not feel bad about your silver Summit week only getting 1400 pts, my summer week on Hilton Head only gets 1150 pts.

Ray


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

What was the question(s) to Owner Services?

I am confused by the following two statements:

1) "The Club Program Manager does offer Interval International a similar week to your home week.  It may or may not be your exact week, but it is a comparable exchange of weeks between Interval International and the Club Program Manager."  

and 

2) "Keep in mind that if you select your usage as week for week, the week goes directly to Interval International. "

If your seek goes directly to II, then why would the Club Manager need to offer a similar, though could be not the exact week, to II?




brigechols said:


> Below is the written response from Owner Services:
> 
> _Thank you for contacting Marriott Vacation Club International.
> 
> ...


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## kamumma1 (Jun 28, 2010)

Interesting... I wrote a letter to Marriott to complain about the new point system (emailed it to Owner Advocacy).  Someone called me w/in an hour to chat about the new program, which may have changed my mind.  Basically, the points system doesn't work for us - which he pretty much agreed.  And said that it won't work for the majority of owners.  BUT, if we join and just used the system the way we always have (exchanging our week through II or using our home resort), it will save us a little over $100 per year (after 4 years - it will take a few years to compensate for the initial sign up fee).  The rep told me that inventory really should not change as most current owners will not use points.  That is to be seen, but whether we join or not, we will still have to go through the same process at II to exchange.  And we can still do the same thing to stay at our home resort.  So it seems we either save a little $ and give up voting rights, or spend a little more and keep them.  It also gives us the "option" of using the points system, which I can't imagine we ever would as it's not in our favor.  Hope this doesn't burn us.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 28, 2010)

brigechols said:


> If a Club member submits a request for a week and the request cannot be filled by inventory in Bucket A or Bucket B, then Marriott will submit a request to II for inventory in Bucket C.  If the request cannot be filled by II, then the Club member goes on a wait list [Marriott and II] for the first available inventory to fill the request in Bucket A, B, or C.  With respect to Bucket C, Marriott does not receive any preferential treatment from II and the request goes in the queue. If the requested week exists in Bucket C and II fills the request, Marriott will give II "the best possible week in the requestor's season" from the pool of available weeks in Bucket A or Bucket B that represents a similar value to the relinquished week/points.



Some of that is no doubt true.  If there is no II inventory available to fill the request, the points request probably does go into a "wait list" in II.  And probably just as soon as something is deposited that meets the request, it will fill the request.  In my view, it is not likely that Marriott will lose to an individual owner's search.


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

please delete this post


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

winger said:


> What was the question(s) to Owner Services?



_As I read and understand the available documentation, if I join the Marriott Vacation Club point system as a current owner of Marriott timeshare intervals, relinquish my weeks in exchange for points, submit a request for a timeshare which is unavailable in the Marriott Vacation Club point system inventory, then the Club Program Manager will submit an exchange request to Interval International for the requested timeshare. What will the Club Program Manager offer to Interval International for the exchange? My relinquished week or another week in the Club's inventory?

What about Trust members? When they relinquish points for an exchange and the unit is unavailable in the Club's inventory, what does the Club Program Manager offer to Interval International for the exchange?

Thank you in advance for answering these questions._



winger said:


> I am confused by the following two statements:
> 
> 1) "The Club Program Manager does offer Interval International a similar week to your home week.  It may or may not be your exact week, but it is a comparable exchange of weeks between Interval International and the Club Program Manager."
> 
> ...



In the question posed to Marriott, the request for a week goes through the Vacation Club and not directly to II. I asked the question to understand where/how  Marriott would obtain inventory for Club members. There have been allegations in at least one thread that Marriott would raid II inventory to satisfy the requests.  There were also allegations in at least one thread that Marriott would deposit less desirable weeks in II to meet the exchange needs of Club members.


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

brigechols said:


> _...
> 
> In the question posed to Marriott, the request for a week goes through the Vacation Club and not directly to II. I asked the question to understand where/how  Marriott would obtain inventory for Club members. There have been allegations in at least one thread that Marriott would raid II inventory to satisfy the requests.  There were also allegations in at least one thread that Marriott would deposit less desirable weeks in II to meet the exchange needs of Club members._


_

Then I am totally confused now.  So, why are they saying the following? 
"Keep in mind that if you select your usage as week for week, the week goes directly to Interval International. "_


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 28, 2010)

kamumma1 said:


> . . . Someone called me w/in an hour to chat about the new program, which may have changed my mind.  Basically, the points system doesn't work for us - which he pretty much agreed.  And said that *it won't work for the majority of owners*.  BUT, if we join and just used the system the way we always have (exchanging our week through II or using our home resort), it will save us a little over $100 per year (after 4 years - it will take a few years to compensate for the initial sign up fee).  The rep told me that inventory really should not change as most current owners will not use points.



Think about it. Why pay to join a program that does not work for an existing MVC owner?  How do  you save money by paying Marriott for a program that you will not use?  This is not like purchasing car insurance or trip insurance which do indeed have solid purposes under certain specific situations.  So why would Marriott take your money to do nothing?  It isn't to "save" you money. If you enroll your weeks with the new CV program, you release your voting rights for your week to Marriott and no longer have a say about your HOA elections ( Marriott votes your share )

Take note that Marriott's documents refer to the new program as a "Bemeficial Trust" and that when folks receive their CV points for their enrolled they are "exercising their beneficial interest ". You don't get something for nothing. You surrender your rights to Marriott when you enroll those weeks.

This stuff comes under the heading of "timeshare scam".

Read carefully what this program is all about and what all of the mechanics regarding weeks, MR points, 13 month rules and the whole gamut of the program are all about.   < http://vacationclub.richfx.com.edgesuite.net/presentation/media/MVCP_Webinar/ >

If MVC owners find it compelling enough to join, then fine. But if the program has no merits, why dabble in the "Trust" arrangment which modifies the conditions of your original MVC ownership.

Just my opinion.

Barry


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## winger (Jun 28, 2010)

jerseyfinn said:


> ...
> Read carefully what this program is all about and what all of the mechanics regarding weeks, MR points, 13 month rules and the whole gamut of the program are all about.   < http://vacationclub.richfx.com.edgesuite.net/presentation/media/MVCP_Webinar/ >...



Thanks for the link, so far on the few slides we did go through, a recurring footnote seems to be "subject to change".  Nice system (sarcastic tone, mind you)


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 28, 2010)

> so far on the few slides we did go through, a recurring footnote seems to be "subject to change".



Good point. I fear that it could mean _'subject to change for the worse' _if some MVC folks don't slow down on this new program and take the time to read how the program works ( and how it *does not *work in the interest of multiple week owners). 

This thing is not just about a "shiny new program"   .  Marriott seeks fundamental change in the character of your ownership relationship with Marriott while dangling out words like "flexible" and "choice" and "lower fees".   

Once again, a low buy in with curtailed fees does not necessarily a good program make. I urge folks to slowly read through the info ( straight from Marriott ) in that "webinar" link and then ponder the practical result/consequences to your ownership experience.

This new product is born out of the realization by Marriott that the Asian market did not embrace the vanilla model of static timeshare weeks and those folks wanted flexiblity for shorter stays. Marriott is trying to offer a global version to assuage that demographic which wants fractional ownership, but not a week at a time. Nothing wrong with trying to make the MVC product more robust, sleek or innovative. But Marriott has created here a program which totally favors Marriott. What they really seek is full/aggressive control over how inventory is utilized across the system.  

I'm not one who tries to tell others what to do here. But slow down folks and find out what this "Beneficial Trust" stuff means beyond the hype about lower fees. Examine how this "subject to change" program functions right here and right now.  It might look like a duck and sound like a duck, but make sure you don't get plucked  

We really don't have to "choose" between anything here. We've already got ownership in an MVC program with clearly delineated rights and a usage system which while not perfect, appears to offer more than this new CV Program.

I honestly fear for those folks doing previews and sales tours who know little about timeshare who are gonna be bombarded and bamboozled by the sales pitch. Many of those folks will be in over their head and surprised to find that in many instances, the CV points they receive for their weeks may not be enough to get into the new resort they just bought. Sounds like someone from Congress came to Marriott to help put this program together.

Barry


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