# Changes to Wyndham Owners Benefits over time…..



## mcnamarami (Apr 6, 2022)

Has anyone tracked the changes to Wyndham owners over the past 5 to 7 years that have resulted in owner benefits being lost or reduced over time?  It seems that many large corporations have done this to benefit stockholders or upper management at the expense of the owners who once had decent benefits to ownership.  I don’t think Wyndham is exempt from this reduction of benefits over time.  It might be interesting to see a list of such reductions.


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## cbyrne1174 (Apr 6, 2022)

The biggest ones for me are 1. Unlimiting Housekeeping credits and 2. Single night stays (which may return).

I was considering PICing to VIP Gold so that I could stay 1 night at Clearwater at a 35% discount and not have to worry about housekeeping. I also live super close to Orlando, so unlimiting housekeeping was a big deal to be. I don't really care about the changes to guest certificates or not letting VIP owners use resale points for their benefits.

When they changed the VIP structure, I bought Marriott and DVC resale instead.


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 6, 2022)

Reducing the amount of GC provided.  I went from Unlimited to 30 to now 15.  Big Drop in value. 

I still have grandfathered Unlimited HK Thankfully.


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 6, 2022)

Cancel, Rebook
Resale points separated from Developer points


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## cbyrne1174 (Apr 6, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> Cancel, Rebook
> Resale points separated from Developer points


Those were never actual benefits though. They were loopholes that got closed.


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 6, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Those were never actual benefits though. They were loopholes that got closed.


Call them system related benefits, then.  
- Cancel Rebook was not a loophole.  Might not have been a specific benefit, but, it was not a loophole.  You'd cancel a reservation and it was immediately available.  Now, you cancel and you don't have a clue as to if/when it will ever come back.  
- Resale being treated as Developer may not have been a benefit, but, the system allowed it.


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## kanerf (Apr 6, 2022)

In the beginning there were no differences between developer and resale.  I even received a Silver card once for a resale contract and was able to book for a month or so before they shut it down.


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## Jan M. (Apr 6, 2022)

Sure wish I had saved all the directories over the 20 years we've owned. Btw, the current one is is so sadly lacking it's a shame they wasted the money printing and distributing it.

Here's what I can remember.

The amount of points needed for the silver and gold VIP point levels have been raised twice.

New VIP owners no longer get unlimited housekeeping credits.

At one time guest confirmations were unlimited. Recently they were reduced for many VIP owners.

Someone told me that at one time you could have more than two PICs. If that's true I'm calling that a loss of VIP benefits.

Mid week trash and tidy no longer appears in the directory. Not sure if that's because of COVID-19 or it's not ever coming back.

I call this a change of the times rather than a loss of a benefit. The daily newspaper was nice back when newspapers weren't what they've now become. Sadly they're a ghost of what they once were. Most resorts still have the USA Today if you want to walk down to the lobby and get one. It's not worth however much it costs the resorts. Almost everyone would rather see the money spent on better/faster internet.

The ability to request a specific room is pretty much a joke because we weren't given the necessary information. When that was added they should have added a layout of each resort showing the unit numbers. Yes those do exist. Also some resorts completely ignore specific unit requests.

Automatic upgrades. Grrrr... At this point I'd prefer to go back to having to search on my own for upgrades after the reservation was booked. How it was done before May 2017. Unfortunately the automatic upgrades have never actually worked as they should. The reps and Owner Care can see when there's something your reservation should be upgrading too but isn't and used to be allowed to help. They would book the larger unit your reservation should have upgraded to, cancel the original reservation that wasn't upgrading and then do a point adjustment. If IT can't fix the problem then Owner Care absolutely should make the owners whole when that happens! It makes Wyndham corporate management look incompetent and clearly shows a very bad attitude in the upper management in Owner Care.

There are a few things that have changed for the better.

The addition of Founder's. Bronze too if you consider it a stepping stone to a higher level.

Additional RARP.


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## Ty1on (Apr 6, 2022)

I'm gonna guess that you'll never see trash n tidy again.  True it was brought on by COVID restrictions, but "hey, we're saving on housekeeping labor here!"


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## Silverdollar (Apr 6, 2022)

A new policy, established 8/21, limited the use of guest certificates at popular or high season resorts to only 2. Prior to that, I had 30 guest certificates to use as I saw fit at any resort, at any time.

A new policy, established 1/22, reduced the number of guest certificates available to owners. In my case, they reduced my GCs from 30 to 15. The previous policy provided 15 GCs for those with million points, and an additional 15 GCs if you had any number pts between 1 and 2 million such as 1.1 milllion pts. Now you must fully reach the next million pts to receive the additional 15 GCs. If they were going to change the policy, they should have at least grandfathered VIPs rather than "snatching" them from their loyal owners.

No longer unlimited housekeeping. Fortunately, we were grandfather in, at least for now.

No longer dedicated lines for VIP owners at check-in (or limited to very few resorts).

No longer daily newspaper for VIP delivered to your door. Only at the main office (if they have any).

No longer early check-in for VIP. It's basically "hit and miss".

No longer request specific rooms by VIP owners. You can request one, but many resorts don't take it seriously.


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## mcnamarami (Apr 6, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Sure wish I had saved all the directories over the 20 years we've owned. Btw, the current one is is so sadly lacking it's a shame they wasted the money printing and distributing it.
> 
> Here's what I can remember.
> 
> ...





Ty1on said:


> I'm gonna guess that you'll never see trash n tidy again.  True it was brought on by COVID restrictions, but "hey, we're saving on housekeeping labor here!"


Thanks to all of the respondents.  I appreciate being reminded of the reductions in value since becoming a Wyndham owner.  We do enjoy the vacations from our ownership and having family join us often.  Mid-week tidying and having a newspaper at the door in the morning might seem to be small items, but they were nice for valued owners.  Why not question the owners at check-in as to whether or not they want these two services? It’s not a “one size fits all“ model, but a choice for owners.


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## Jan M. (Apr 6, 2022)

mcnamarami said:


> We do enjoy the vacations from our ownership and having family join us often.



We also enjoy our stays. We don't regret what we've spent even though it's way more than we would have if we'd known more. That's on us; not on Fairfield or Wyndham.

I accept that over time most things in life change. Not always for the better but hopefully at least some things are for the better.

What's unacceptable is incompetence, poor management and attitude at both the corporate and resort levels.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 6, 2022)

In fairness to Wyndham (I know, I know) the GCs were reduced because they were being abused by owners who were running rental businesses, a practice specifically prohibited in the contract. I’m sorry, but I can’t get worked up about someone not getting 15, 30, 50 or more GCs per year. I get 5. DW comes from a family of 11 kids so you can imagine how many cousins, nieces, nephews etc. We get by fine with the 5. And call it a loophole, benefit, glitch, whatever. I enjoyed cancel/rebook while it lasted, but it was never intended to be used in the manner that VIPS, including me, used it. Wyndham didn’t eliminate a benefit, per se. Wyndham upgraded their system so that it could upgrade rooms for owners who requested it months earlier. Did it prevent someone from upgrading a room on the fly? Yes, because it stopped allowing people to break in line. I see that as a good thing, and the right thing to do, regardless of how it impacted me, personally. 

Wyndham is a for profit business and it’s responsibility is to it‘s shareholders and owners. As @HitchHiker71 has stated here many times, TUG represents a minute percentage of Wyndham owners. However, it is a very educated ownership with many VIPs, so it appears to have an outsized voice which speaks for all, or at least a majority of owners. That is not the case. Companies rarely make changes that they know will make their customer/owners/shareholders unhappy. Wyndham is no exception.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 6, 2022)

I thought you guys had a great list going and maybe I would add one or two things, I guess I thought of a few more as I was typing....

We lost credit pooling (replaced by point deposit forward). 

We have a far less functional or performant website. We lost upgrade paths (seems like before 2017 they were more by points versus room capacity and we would have more choice. For example, we used to be able to upgrade a 1 bedroom deluxe at Bonnet Creek to a 1 bedroom presidential, we can't do that anymore. Use to be, if I was booking and there was a 1 bedroom deluxe, a 1 bedroom presidential, and a 2 bedroom deluxe, I could choose if I wanted to upgrade tot he 1 bedroom presidential or the 2 bedroom deluxe. Today only the 2 bedroom deluxe would be an option.  We used to be able to upgrade ourselves, if we saw an upgrade come available after our initial booking. The autoupgrade process does not work (already mentioned). And I can't say I only want to upgrade to a deluxe versus presidential - automatic you get what you get and have no ability to specify (for example maybe you have 1 bedroom presidential and you only want an upgrade if it's to a larger presidential unit - no can do - if you specify an upgrade chances are you'll get a 2 bedroom deluxe (which is the same point value as the 1 br presidential). Standard and accessible units use always display in the search results and were in the upgrade paths (so I could book a 1 br mobility with instant upgrade to a 2 bedroom standard - can't do that anymore). Nor can you do the opposite (book standard and instant upgrade a mobility). You can opt in to an autoupgrade in the former scenario, but not the latter. Rooms prices/upgrades should not be dependent on accessibility features. And performance and bugs and loss of searching capabilities is just unacceptable by my standards.  How long have we been dealing with login issues, getting knocked off, logging in multiple times. Can I say performance one more time for the people in tha back?

We now view transactions 3 per page and have extremely limited reporting capabilities. Can no longer see transactions by a particular owner on the account or for a particular resort. Can't sort. The transaction history is a joke - literally no detail.

Before my time, I believe owners could transfer points to each other. 

Buying/transferring contracts now points can be lost. Used to be if a contract had credit pooled points,they would transfer to the new owner. PDF do not - just gone.

Who knows how many points have been lost with the use year alignments. Both to owners who did nothing, and got realigned (most, but not all were compensated). More seem to be lost these days with transfers (if a contract is aligned to the new owners use year).

Customer Service is not what it used to be. Not as good, they are not as empowered. There are very few things they can do for us, even if they want to. Reaching owner resolution, the old owner care, can be like getting into Fort Knox. Those poor VC's need their supervisor's permission to transfer us to owner resolution. The other day I had an issue where I clearly needed to be transferred and the supervisor would not give the poor guy permission. The VC tried twice (yes that means 2 15 min holds for me) and could not get permission. Guessing he won't work for Wyndham too long with that kind of work environment.  Sunday I held over a hour, first with the VC's proving the advertised discounts under deals and offers weren't working as advertised, then over 1/2 hours with owner resolution, again proving the discounts weren't working as advertised. Finally a ticket was entered and if they agree I am right and it's not a verbiage issue on the website, they will give me the discount after i check out. They've still not fixed the website nor have I heard back on my ticket. Owner Care used to be more empowered to fix things, they have a very limited ability to do anything now.

What have we gained? The adding on to a reservation is definitely nice. There is a do not tour flag   Emailing Michael Brown's office is pretty effective, they listen and do the right thing for us. Pins, don't forget we get pins now! And whatever that jeep raffle is where you have to hunt down the thing they use to see if you are a winner. I believe I was in Tower 6 and they said I needed to go to the sales desk in the main guest registration to check my QR Code, lol.  Real time updates to the resorts are nice (booking, adding nights, changing owner names or adding a guest confirmation). Seems a win for the resorts to be able to look at the details if needed. Love being able to change owner names online, that used to take a call and a GC override.

Seems IT continues to be on the struggle bus with changes, lack of testing, slow to fix things they mess up (think accessible flag) and limited testing of any changes implemented.  There continues to be exceptionally poor communication to owners about changes. And not only to owners, VC's are usually pretty clueless about what's going on (think owner priority policies).

Change of leadership has not mattered. Wyndham is as shady as ever, sales still does the same shady stuff. I thought the new guy was going work on that.

All that said, we do enjoy our stays and the resorts seem to be well managed. There are hiccups, but overall thankful the resorts seem to manage the resorts to ensure we have enjoyable visits (although maybe there are more shenanigans these days with getting wrist bands, since people didn't always feel held hostage by the parking pass). We have had countless memorable vacations and will continue to do so.


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## Jan M. (Apr 6, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Before my time, I believe owners could transfer points to each other.



I forgot about that! That was another unsuccessful attempt to control renting. Even with the priority lists and the certified letters renting is still going strong.

I'll take this opportunity to once again say something I've been saying since 2016, if not before that. All Wyndham ever had to do was do exactly what the directories say and the paperwork we signed with every purchase we made says. Only developer purchased points get VIP benefits and commercial use is prohibited.


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## WManning (Apr 6, 2022)

mcnamarami said:


> Has anyone tracked the changes to Wyndham owners over the past 5 to 7 years that have resulted in owner benefits being lost or reduced over time?  It seems that many large corporations have done this to benefit stockholders or upper management at the expense of the owners who once had decent benefits to ownership.  I don’t think Wyndham is exempt from this reduction of benefits over time.  It might be interesting to see a list of such reductions.


My resale points work the same if not better now. The availability of rooms to book has increased now that Wyndham used blackout dates to restrict GC'S on busy holiday dates. The elimination of cancel and re book also helped availability.  Last minute rentals used to be dominated by a few Wyndham owners abusing resale points with VIP discounts and upgrades but that loophole has been closed also. The concentrated effort by Wyndham to end owners from running a commercial rental business has help all owners book for personal use. How could anyone complain about the closing  of loopholes or eliminating abuse of rentals if it the changes help availability?


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## WManning (Apr 6, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> I forgot about that! That was another unsuccessful attempt to control renting. Even with the priority lists and the certified letters renting is still going strong.
> 
> I'll take this opportunity to once again say something I've been saying since 2016, if not before that. All Wyndham ever had to do was do exactly what the directories say and the paperwork we signed with every purchase we made says. Only developer purchased points get VIP benefits and commercial use is prohibited.


Over the last two years Wyndham has clamped down on the loopholes and abuse. Wyndham needs to  keep enforcing rules to prevent rental abuse at the expense of owners trying to book for personal use.


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## Jan M. (Apr 6, 2022)

WManning said:


> Over the last two years Wyndham has clamped down on the loopholes and abuse



Wyndham has been "clamping down" for a lot longer than the just the last two years. Not a single thing they've done has been successful in the long term; barely even the short term. Owners who rent quickly learned to adjust, figured out work arounds. Once again they've eliminated a few of the big renters but in the past others have filled that void. From what I'm seeing that what's happening this time. The difference I'm seeing is that instead of a small number of bigger renters there's a bigger number of small renters filling the void.



WManning said:


> Wyndham needs to keep enforcing rules to prevent rental abuse at the expense of owners trying to book for personal use



What Wyndham is and has been doing is skirting around actually enforcing the rules across the board. Wyndham needs to get their act together and get this figured out. If they don't this will end up costing them big time because what they're doing is discrimination. I'd be willing to bet good money that class action attorney groups are just salivating over this and hoping Wyndham doesn't finally draw a hard line. It would be extremely foolish to think that Wyndham's losses wouldn't in some way get passed on to us the owners.


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## Eric B (Apr 7, 2022)

WManning said:


> Wyndham needs to keep enforcing rules to prevent rental abuse at the expense of owners trying to book for personal use.



The difficulty with this is in defining what is rental abuse and what is not.  There isn't a per se "rule" against renting out Wyndham stays - instead the thing they are trying to limit is "commercial" activity or use, which for better or worse they do not define.  IMHO, it's tough to call something "commercial" when someone rents out stays for which they've paid full price in points and remained within the free GC allotment they get - this probably has some relationship to Wyndham's actions with respect to reducing the number of free GCs that the upper level VIPs get.

I do not have an issue with folks that have excess points in a year renting out stays using them and I don't really believe that Wyndham does either.  If they did, they wouldn't give out as many free GCs as they do.  I think that part of the motivation for the "cracking down" on an activity that many of the Wyndham sales people encouraged over the years is that when they were allowing VIPs to make bookings to rent out, then cancel and rebook those bookings at a discount, they were greatly subsidizing those rental activities and allowing for reduced prices by the renters, costing them both on the points they were subsidizing the bookings with and the lower rents they get through Extra Holidays.  If you follow the money, you'll realize that Wyndham is not doing things to benefit owners booking for their personal use out of the goodness of their hearts but instead fixing a business problem.


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## troy12n (Apr 7, 2022)

The elephant in the room is that things like credit pool, cancel and rebook, VIP benefits removed from resale points and reductions in the number of "free" GC's is that these things were abused to great extent by certain people. Including some people here. Yes, i'm pointing at you Ron Parise and people like you running businesses out of their timeshare ownership. 

So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system. Wyndham certainly deserves some blame on some of the points mentioned, but you can't blame them for people like Ron turning 1 million points worth of reservations into 4 million by booking inside the discount window just to cancel and get more points out of it. And the other people who got sued by Wyndham for what amounts to fraud. 

Also if you need more than 15 GC's, maybe you are running a business, and maybe shouldn't be. This is coming from someone who has never used a single GC in the history of my ownership, including the 2 years I was Platinum and "gave up" 30 unused GC's those years. 

I would like to see 1 night reservations come back (Worldmark got them back...) as well as mid-week cleanings.


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## paxsarah (Apr 7, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> We lost credit pooling (replaced by point deposit forward).


This combined with the change in housekeeping has negatively impacted certain subsets of owners, especially biennial owners and small points owners. Biennial contracts used to be functionally almost equivalent to annual if you were willing to pay to credit pool, but no longer. And small points owners with only 1 HK credit are faced with a big new fee if they take 2 trips, whereas they might have been able to book 2 studio units before with no cost.


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## comicbookman (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> The elephant in the room is that things like credit pool, cancel and rebook, VIP benefits removed from resale points and reductions in the number of "free" GC's is that these things were abused to great extent by certain people. Including some people here. Yes, i'm pointing at you Ron Parise and people like you running businesses out of their timeshare ownership.
> 
> So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system. Wyndham certainly deserves some blame on some of the points mentioned, but you can't blame them for people like Ron turning 1 million points worth of reservations into 4 million by booking inside the discount window just to cancel and get more points out of it. And the other people who got sued by Wyndham for what amounts to fraud.
> 
> ...


Ron never "abused" his ownership.  He did what the sales weasels said we could do.  He was generally free with his advice and he always followed the rules as they existed.  Wyndham used guys like him as an example to convince people to buy more points, and just rent out the extra's to pay for the ones they used. I am glad you personally don't need GC's.  I have a large extended family. many live with driving distance of a Wyndham resort.  We use many GC's every year to give them weekend stays throughout the year. I am not opposed to cracking down on renters, I am opposed to hitting all owners over the head with a sledge hammer to do it.  As was said earlier, eliminating cancel/rebook and simply enforcing the rules as they were would have had the same impact on renters.  Wyndhams actions are designed to maximize profits, not make things better for owners.


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## Jan M. (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system. Wyndham certainly deserves some blame on some of the points mentioned, but you can't blame them for people like Ron turning 1 million points worth of reservations into 4 million by booking inside the discount window just to cancel and get more points out of it. And the other people who got sued by Wyndham for what amounts to fraud.



There is so much wrong with what you're saying. Yes, we absolutely should be holding Wyndham accountable! They are paid by all of us in our program fees and entrusted to run the program in the best interests of the owners and as it's stated. They have repeatedly failed to do that. Those who have a historical knowledge of what began unfolding in August 2016 will have heard the term silos used to describe Wyndham management. I've always said that sales is allowed to dictate how the program is run and our website is designed. Hence the conflict of interest that allows a lot of things to be overlooked until they blow up in Wyndham's face.

Did some owners take advantage of Fairfield's and then Wyndham's long standing and repeated failures? Again, absolutely. 

Are you going to blame every single VIP owner who got their discounts and upgrades on resale points in their accounts prior to August, 2021? Was this something within those owners control when all the points were lumped together in their accounts? No it wasn't. Now we have a system that's designed to separate those points.

For years I've said that from the very start there should have been two separate accounts for owners with both developer and resale points. I never thought they would be able to successfully manage both types of points in one account even though in more recent years other owners with the expertise to know said it could be successfully done. With the original outdated system it couldn't have been done but it likely could have been done with the Voyager system in May 2017. Voyager was the predecessor for the system we now have. Ron Parise once told me why separating the points was unlikely to happen anytime soon. It had nothing to do with the computer system and everything to do with the powers that be. He wasn't wrong but with new leadership and years later it did change.

VIP owners were coached for years by the sales people and even the reps in how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. For a number of years the reps used to help owners do it! So no, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. We've since come to call it a loophole but in truth they were just using the system as it was designed. When the Voyager website came out in May 2017 owners could no longer do that because we then had a system that was designed not to allow it.

Owners didn't get sued by Wyndham and still aren't! Wyndham buys them out, settles with them and gets NDAs.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 7, 2022)

We used to have unlimited guest certficates, not just 15 per 1,000,000 owned.  If you were VIP Platinum, guest certificates were all free.  I have the little DVD they gave us when we bought 15 years ago to prove it.  I also have the original literature given to me by the salespeople at Bali Hai who converted our Bali Hai and Shearwater weeks to points.  We converted twice and are Double Platinum Founders.  We own a lot of points, and Wyndham has been good to us, mostly.  

I have nothing in my contracts that say anything about renting being against any rules, either. So you say it's in the contract, but it wasn't there in 2007.  Yes, a lawyer did go through everything we have.  

I am okay with depositing a bunch of Wyndham into RCI at the end of the year.  I get some great trades that way.  I didn't save anything on 3/31 or before that date.  The taking away of credit pooling was actually a big deal to me.  They did that so you couldn't plan way ahead.  I think that was a major downgrade.


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## WManning (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> The elephant in the room is that things like credit pool, cancel and rebook, VIP benefits removed from resale points and reductions in the number of "free" GC's is that these things were abused to great extent by certain people. Including some people here. Yes, i'm pointing at you Ron Parise and people like you running businesses out of their timeshare ownership.
> 
> So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system. Wyndham certainly deserves some blame on some of the points mentioned, but you can't blame them for people like Ron turning 1 million points worth of reservations into 4 million by booking inside the discount window just to cancel and get more points out of it. And the other people who got sued by Wyndham for what amounts to fraud.
> 
> ...


Exactly  my thoughts on GC`s. The elimination of resale points being used with VIP benefits more then likely ended most of the rental business. The elimination of cheap rentals has benefited Wyndham by creating buyers that used to rent for less then the cost of owning. It also helps Wyndhams rental arm Extra Holidays. Think about the deeds and ownerships that were also given back using Certified Exit. End result more availability for owners to book for personal use and ownerships given back are sold to the next generation of timeshare owners.


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## WManning (Apr 7, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> There is so much wrong with what you're saying. Yes, we absolutely should be holding Wyndham accountable! They are paid by all of us in our program fees and entrusted to run the program in the best interests of the owners and as it's stated. They have repeatedly failed to do that. Those who have a historical knowledge of what began unfolding in August 2016 will have heard the term silos used to describe Wyndham management. I've always said that sales is allowed to dictate how the program is run and our website is designed. Hence the conflict of interest that allows a lot of things to be overlooked until they blow up in Wyndham's face.
> 
> Did some owners take advantage of Fairfield's and then Wyndham's long standing and repeated failures? Again, absolutely.
> 
> ...


Pre 2016 every deed was in a separate bucket. If you wanted to book a vacation you could dictate what points were removed from each deed. They had the ability to to pull points from specific deeds and its baffling why they didn't separate  resale from VIP years ago. As you said in a previous post it could only be incompetence on Wyndhams part.


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## troy12n (Apr 7, 2022)

I don't blame all owners, not at all and I don't see how you can take that away from my post. I specifically blame a small handful of owners, like Ron, who abused the system to MASSIVE proportions. One can say they just "used the system" as it was set up. But the WAY they found they were able to "fool" the points bank to refund them points errantly is absolutely fraudulent at worst, and at the very least GROSSLY unethical. 

So yeah, if you want to excuse his, and others behavior "because they could", that's like blaming a burglar for breaking into your home when you mistakenly left the front door unlocked. Or someone stole your car because you left the keys in it... after all, if you didn't want your car stolen or home burglarized, why would you ever leave it unlocked??

It's called victim blaming in certain contexts. However, here this behavior seems to be praised and emulated by some. 

Again, a very small number of people abused the system and it had to be fixed. Some of these people were sued out of their ownership.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I don't blame all owners, not at all and I don't see how you can take that away from my post. I specifically blame a small handful of owners, like Ron, who abused the system to MASSIVE proportions. One can say they just "used the system" as it was set up. But the WAY they found they were able to "fool" the points bank to refund them points errantly is absolutely fraudulent at worst, and at the very least GROSSLY unethical.
> 
> So yeah, if you want to excuse his, and others behavior "because they could", that's like blaming a burglar for breaking into your home when you mistakenly left the front door unlocked. Or someone stole your car because you left the keys in it... after all, if you didn't want your car stolen or home burglarized, why would you ever leave it unlocked??
> 
> ...


Terrible analogy.  I don't think Ron was doing ANYTHING that you say he was doing.  Don't make up stuff.


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## JimmieJames2 (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> But the WAY they found they were able to "fool" the points bank to refund them points errantly is absolutely fraudulent at worst, and at the very least GROSSLY unethical.
> 
> Sorry to disagree with you on this point - but I personally attempted to cancel a reservation and it would not cancel and each time I tried the system added back into my account the number of points of the reservation without going through with the cancellation.  After several tries and accumulation a about a million points that I was not entitled to I stopped and called the next morning and asked the VC to do the cancellation and to remove the points from my account.   It was a system problem - not the fault of the individual.


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## WManning (Apr 7, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Terrible analogy.  I don't think Ron was doing ANYTHING that you say he was doing.  Don't make up stuff.


What Ron did was all above board. Wyndham  was a buyer of his stripped deeds.The only thing he was guilty of was discussing his stripping of deeds on this forum. Loose lips sank his ship.


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 7, 2022)

When they took away the Credit Pool, I was extremely angry.  And Ron was who I was angry because he bragged about how he stripped contracts and then unloaded them.  It did not take long, however, for me to shift my anger toward Wyndham.  They could have fixed the stripping problem without penalizing all other owners.  I can not blame owners, I will blame Wyndham, they could have fixed issues without punishing all owners.


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## Pathways (Apr 7, 2022)

Agree with the others.

What Ron did was absolutely above board - he was always open about his process.  Can't say about others as they weren't so open, but if they followed his methods, all were well within the rules.


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## Jan M. (Apr 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> But the WAY they found they were able to "fool" the points bank to refund them points errantly is absolutely fraudulent at worst, and at the very least GROSSLY unethical.



As OP pointed out that wasn't what Ron and a few others did. 

After the fecal matter hit the fan Ron took proactive measures and set up a meeting with the Wyndham legal team. They assumed he was taking advantage of the system glitch that was giving owners points they shouldn't have gotten. Points that were in no way associated with the contracts they owned but instead points that were erroneously added to their accounts. Some owners figured out what was happening and deliberately manipulated the glitch to gain points. Ron explained what he and a few others were actually doing and Wyndham found out they had another entirely different problem that they knew nothing about.

He sold some of those stripped contracts to TUG members and made it clear that there wouldn't be any points available until a future use year. He was very aboveboard in that. Wyndham was actually the buyer for lot of those stripped contracts. I've never been sure if someone in Wyndham was knowingly involved in in buying them. We do know that at that time Wyndham was buying contracts through some select resellers.

Several TUG members repeatedly informed Wyndham that the system was giving them points it shouldn't have. They probably weren't the only ones to report it. It wasn't until the numbers were way over an acceptable error norm that Wyndham finally got their heads out of their behinds and started looking for answers. Hence the audits and some owners accounts being frozen in August 2016. What they looked for was accounts with reservations totaling a lot more points than were actually owned. It took months for Wyndham to work down the list to get to some owners and unfreeze their accounts.

This is old news to some of you but since it came up I thought I'd give the Reader's Digest condensed version to help new members understand what's being discussed.


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## lost patience (Apr 8, 2022)

We are Founders - a little over 1M with 2 PICs.  Plus a good amount of resale points.   Here are my thoughts from the last few years, in no particular order.

1.  Decrease in Guest Certificates
2.  Loss of the ability to use our guest certificates any day of the year (caused by blackout dates)
3.  Loss of a system that I could log into quickly.
4.  Loss of a system where I could maneuver to a resort quickly.
5.  Loss of a system that did not kick me out repeatedly as I attempt to maneuver to a resort.
6.  Loss of a system with simple upgrade paths.  A 1br would upgrade to a 1dx.   A 1br would upgrade to any available 2br.
7.  Split of resale from developer.  Mid year.  Very little notice.  My account is still not correct.  I'll not argue that it was a unintended benefit that we certainly enjoyed, and I'll not argue that Wyndham had the "right" to change.  I am surprised that the 99% of the non-hybrid owners are not upset with the huge cost of programing.  1% seems like a small number to target.    I am frustrated with the midyear cut in.  Why not wait until 2023 as compared to the mess of the mid year cut in that we are all now dealing with as our 2022 reservations are a mix of points.
8.  Loss of a system where searching was quick and easy.
9.  Loss of 1N stays.
10.  Loss of freedom to share my membership with friends and family.  Now we are worried we will "trip" the commercial threshold.
11.  Lost of trust.  This is a big one.  There are just too many "overbooking" cases shared here and on FB.  
12.  Lack of help with overbooking.  Too bad - here is a 1br for the 12 people that were going to fit into a 4br.
13.  Poorly implemented "guest blackout" dates with no way to see how many were used.
14.  Staff that is not well versed with the system.  Not sure if staff today is not trained, or if previously there were not as many "rules", therefore i was not calling and asking questions.


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## CO skier (Apr 8, 2022)

mcnamarami said:


> Thanks to all of the respondents.  I appreciate being reminded of the reductions in value since becoming a Wyndham owner.


Why would you or anyone want to beat the long-dead, desiccated dead horse corpses in the Wyndham forum, which is what this thread will/has turned into.

Maybe it has been a slow month in the Wyndham forum?


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## CO skier (Apr 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> What Wyndham is and has been doing is skirting around actually enforcing the rules across the board. Wyndham needs to get their act together and get this figured out. If they don't this will end up costing them big time because what they're doing is discrimination. I'd be willing to bet good money that class action attorney groups are just salivating over this and hoping Wyndham doesn't finally draw a hard line.


Class action attorneys salivate over any possible lawsuit, because their firms reap millions in a settlement (they do not even have to win, they just need to outlast the Wyndham attorneys).  The plaintiff class gets some free movie rentals or something.

Anyone who thinks plaintiffs have any chance to prevail in a timeshare lawsuit against Wyndham should (have their head examined) review the Spearman v. Wyndham case of 2013, the Sirmon v. Wyndham case of 2014, the Klebba case of a couple years ago, and this most recent case:









						Lawsuit
					

Wyndham prevailed.  Attached.




					tugbbs.com
				




I really like this quote from the ruling in the most recent case as a generalization, "At bottom, Plaintiffs’ reliance on speculation alone is not enough to create a triable issue of fact."  Because, man, there is a bunch of speculation in this thread and others about new rentals taking the place of old rentals in Club Wyndham, when 10's of millions of Club Wyndham points (obviously from megarenters exiting their business) appeared on eBay soon after the Owner Priority windows and elimination of VIP discounts on resale points.  If the megarenters with years of experience cannot make a go of it, how would amateurs fare?  It defies logic.


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## CO skier (Apr 8, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> TUG represents a minute percentage of Wyndham owners. However, it is a very educated ownership with many VIPs, so it appears to have an outsized voice which speaks for all, or at least a majority of owners. That is not the case. Companies rarely make changes that they know will make their customer/owners/shareholders unhappy. Wyndham is no exception.


Owners benefited from the availability of 3 and 4 bedroom units and others that were no longer reserved as part of a commercial enterprise when cancel/rebook was eliminated.  These units did not appear on Extra Holidays, so owners must have booked them at full point costs using the points they owned to take their family on vacation.  Do not see how it enhanced Wyndham's profits in any way, as some suggest.

Same thing with Owner Priority Reservations.  It was confirmed that Extra Holidays does not book during these times, and owners cannot book during these times and turn over the reservation to Extra Holidays.  Owners who bought into Wyndham to take their family on these premium vacations reserve these times at the expense of erstwhile non-owners.  Has nothing to do with Wyndham profits, as some suggest.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 8, 2022)

OK... I wasn't going to post about renting as I thought we'd pretty much beat this topic to death already, rather than thinking there is an elephant in the room (as I do thing any elephants have been called out). There may be a dead horse or two in the room already, but here goes...

I say Wyndham has things just about the way they want them. They can still blame the big bad boogey monster mega renter when they need to. I say the big bad ones are gone. But people can (and will) still believe. Otherwise, they have this thing called owner priority that is encouraging booking of resorts (albeit more likely rentals, but those seem to be more acceptable)? during the less busy times. A win for all, right?  VIP benefits not extending to resale contracts, a huge win. Lot's less points available for booking overall. Even less guest confirmations for VIPs, another super big win for Wyndham. More money for them. I don't believe limiting GC's is a rental curtailment, just an increase in expense. 

@CO skier where are you attributing the lack of 3 and 4 bedroom units to the elimination of that big bad mega renter? At Bonnet Creek 3 and 4 bedroom units were taken out of inventory last October. None were available thru November, 2022, all gone in one day, very obviously they were all removed from the owner website (nope not because owners were being able to take their families on vacation). Since then we heard blame of renovations being behind due to supply chain issues (in December it was inferred furniture was sitting on ships). Most recently the story is all lake view tower 6 rooms will be taken out of circulation starting May 1st due to exterior work on the building (still being blamed on supply chain issues). But you go ahead and believe all those rooms no one is seeing on the owner website are being booked and used by owners taking their families on vacation.

I see a new breed of renters. Less experienced, less vested in what they are doing. More callous, or uninformed? I talked to someone recently who had their reservation cancelled at 8:30pm the night before checkin. He had called and verified his reservation and had a printed confirmation. He thought surely it was an error and could straighten it out when he arrived.  He had no room and the resort manager just repeatedly kept telling him the owner should have known. The renter was not mad at the owner. The owner played dumb, said they had no idea. Resort manager insisted owner should have known. My opinion, fwiw, pretty sure the owner should have known and was just hoping it all worked out. I'm also seeing some old scammers recycling (opportunity?). Overall, Wyndham is tarnishing their reputation a bit (more). I wonder (with the 8:30pm the night before cancellation) if they aren't taking advantage of the rules when it suits them? They seem to have more issues than ever with overbooking, and now they can possibly cancel reservations if they need to.  And I would guess a different breed of points managers? That's my guess at what I am seeing, but only a hunch. Overall riskier as ever for trusting, innocent people looking for a vacation rental. And so the timesharing industry continues to live up to it's reputation (continuing to be a bit on the shady side).

I couldn't believe I was defending Wyndham in my renters example able. Bottom line, IMO, if Wyndham or the resort is saying the owner should have known, I do believe the owner should have known. If Wyndham is working to recover rooms accidentally cancelled (I haven't heard of any since last July) then Wyndham was the one at fault and worked to fix the issue.

And my goodness some of the stories I've read, like that people's reservations were cancelled because the resort had too many reservations using guest confirmations? No one do I believe that. But people will make up anything to am

Seems like some here are inferring all changes Wyndham makes are to stop those big bad mega renters. Sure some are, but many are truly lost benefits that increase revenue for Wyndham. And not even stepping into that pile of poop about cancel/rebook, etc, etc, etc... That horse id dead, decayed, even the flies are gone.


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## WManning (Apr 8, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> OK... I wasn't going to post about renting as I thought we'd pretty much beat this topic to death already, rather than thinking there is an elephant in the room (as I do thing any elephants have been called out). There may be a dead horse or two in the room already, but here goes...
> 
> I say Wyndham has things just about the way they want them. They can still blame the big bad boogey monster mega renter when they need to. I say the big bad ones are gone. But people can (and will) still believe. Otherwise, they have this thing called owner priority that is encouraging booking of resorts (albeit more likely rentals, but those seem to be more acceptable)? during the less busy times. A win for all, right?  VIP benefits not extending to resale contracts, a huge win. Lot's less points available for booking overall. Even less guest confirmations for VIPs, another super big win for Wyndham. More money for them. I don't believe limiting GC's is a rental curtailment, just an increase in expense.
> 
> ...


To bad Wyndham never implemented a wait list.


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## CO skier (Apr 8, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> @CO skier where are you attributing the lack of 3 and 4 bedroom units to the elimination of that big bad mega renter?


There were a number of threads after the changes in 2017.  The following quotes are a couple of examples from when that particular horse was flogged.









						New Wyndham Policies are a killer!
					

Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years.  Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost.  It feels like a major "bait and switch".  Are there other VIP owners out there that have...




					tugbbs.com
				






markb53 said:


> I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units  in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook.  Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
> I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury.












						New Wyndham Policies are a killer!
					

Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years.  Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost.  It feels like a major "bait and switch".  Are there other VIP owners out there that have...




					tugbbs.com
				






Railman83 said:


> If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points?  I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.


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## Jan M. (Apr 8, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Class action attorneys salivate over any possible lawsuit, because their firms reap millions in a settlement (they do not even have to win, they just need to outlast the Wyndham attorneys).  The plaintiff class gets some free movie rentals or something.
> 
> Anyone who thinks plaintiffs have any chance to prevail in a timeshare lawsuit against Wyndham should (have their head examined) review the Spearman v. Wyndham case of 2013, the Sirmon v. Wyndham case of 2014, the Klebba case of a couple years ago, and this most recent case:
> 
> ...



Normally I would be in agreement about class actions lawsuits against Wyndham. However Wyndham's legal team has to get this figured out because what's currently happening is flagrant discriminatory treatment. This has the potential to do them a lot of damage. I don't like seeing all owners impacted because of a few which is what has invariably happened.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if once again Yvonne Klebba Michelson isn't suing over this.  She's the owner Glacier Canyon complained to Wyndham about because she had 40 reservations with her four accounts over Thanksgiving 2020. That's what led to the blackout/priority lists and the certified letters that are still going out. I personally believe it also escalated the timetable for separating developer and resale points. I've been saying since the owners meeting in Austin in November 2019 that it was coming but figured it wouldn't happen until this year or next year.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> VIP owners were coached for years by the sales people and even the reps in how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. For a number of years the reps used to help owners do it! So no, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. We've since come to call it a loophole but in truth they were just using the system as it was designed. When the Voyager website came out in May 2017 owners could no longer do that because we then had a system that was designed not to allow it.


This is a huge reason I will always hold Wyndham accountable. All these things people say were abusing the system, were 'sales tools'. A lot of people got duped into buying more developer points. Not mentioned yet, here, lol, was the incentive to buy contracts with different use years. Another sales ploy, teaching you to roll points. The sales people just loved to teach you all these tricks so they could sell you more points. I can say I never did anything that I didn't first ask a Wyndham person about first. Case in point, I read here in TUG if we have multiple use years, we could roll points foward. Went to an owner update where a top dog sales guy told, why of course, as long as the contract I purchased was developer points, not resale. And tried to sell me a contract that would fit the bill.

I remember an angry, angry room of owners, many of them VIP Presidential Reserve, at the round table meetings (with the officers) at the owners meeting in Orlando, I believe that was fall of 2017.


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## WManning (Apr 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> This is a huge reason I will always hold Wyndham accountable. All these things people say were abusing the system, were 'sales tools'. A lot of people got duped into buying more developer points. Not mentioned yet, here, lol, was the incentive to buy contracts with different use years. Another sales ploy, teaching you to roll points. The sales people just loved to teach you all these tricks so they could sell you more points. I can say I never did anything that I didn't first ask a Wyndham person about first. Case in point, I read here in TUG if we have multiple use years, we could roll points foward. Went to an owner update where a top dog sales guy told, why of course, as long as the contract I purchased was developer points, not resale. And tried to sell me a contract that would fit the bill.
> 
> I remember an angry, angry room of owners, many of them VIP Presidential Reserve, at the round table meetings (with the officers) at the owners meeting in Orlando, I believe that was fall of 2017.


What about Worldmark and it's bonus time. Love to book vacations without HK`s and for less then the cost of maintenance fees. Can bonus time be considered timeshare utopia?


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 9, 2022)

I think how happy Wyndham will be when we're all gone and no one remembers this stuff anymore.


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 9, 2022)

I for one didn't like a lot of the changes they implemented, but in all fairness to Wyndham all they did was build a system for the way the rules were intended, and not the way they were previously implemented and utilized (although some say exploited), like the cancel & rebook, and like all points being treated the same in the account regardless of acquistion method (developer vs resale).  I will give Wyndham that.  They just made the computer match the real business rules.

But the constant eroding of benefits that were part of the purchased and taken away is annoying, like HK and GCs.   Thanksfully I am still grandfathered for HK, but I am not happy about going from UNL to 30 to 15 GC per year.  I sure wish that the auto upgrade process would be fixed, as clearly we have all seen situations where someone's upgrade did not process as there are unit available in a larger size and my request for an upgrade for those same dates are NOT matching.  I rely on Instant Upgrades as that is the only reliable way to get one.  I think I am am surprised now when an auto upgrade happens, as it is not very often.  This is NOT what was provided for when I signed up for VIPP.

I do wish now that all the coding is in place to seperate developer from resale, that they spend a bit more time making the system more stable.  I am tried of having to login about 15 times during a session.   I also want the auto upgrade feature to be fixed as clearly it has issues.


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## mcnamarami (Apr 9, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> I think how happy Wyndham will be when we're all gone and no one remembers this stuff anymore.


That’s exactly why I posted the original question ….  long time owners (Fairfield, etc.) have the experience that we newer owners do not.  I have purchased all of our points via Developer buys (and paid a premium for such buys), so I was not unhappy to see changes in Resale vs. Developer points in favor of Developer purchased.  Wyndham definitely has work to do in tightening up the system as so many have suggested here.  It is also up to us, as owners, to keep pushing Wyndham to make changes favorable to us.


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## jules54 (Apr 9, 2022)

BTW don’t worry about Ron. He made out like a bandit and did not suffer. Ron is a smart guy and knew his programs and what to do to best benefit his ownership. He was always forthcoming with his advice when asked. I miss his input so much. IMO a major part of the problem is people are petty and jealous and mistakenly feel everyone should have the same access to dates and inventory without putting the time or effort into finding and booking what they want. One of the ways to adjust is bitch less and work more. If you know you want something plan ahead, understand your ARP and take advantage of it. The reservations you want aren’t going to come to you magically. Folks that do find their way no matter what. 
OMG stop worrying someone is getting more than you are, in the case of Wyndham they are paying for it. This is not first grade where all the kids cry NO FAIR.


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## WManning (Apr 9, 2022)

mcnamarami said:


> That’s exactly why I posted the original question ….  long time owners (Fairfield, etc.) have the experience that we newer owners do not.  I have purchased all of our points via Developer buys (and paid a premium for such buys), so I was not unhappy to see changes in Resale vs. Developer points in favor of Developer purchased.  Wyndham definitely has work to do in tightening up the system as so many have suggested here.  It is also up to us, as owners, to keep pushing Wyndham to make changes favorable to us.


Unfortunately one size does not fit all "owners" If you bought Developer, resale or own a combination of both. For every restriction or enforcement of club rules there will be one or two of the ownership groups above that will not be happy.


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## WManning (Apr 9, 2022)

jules54 said:


> BTW don’t worry about Ron. He made out like a bandit and did not suffer. Ron is a smart guy and knew his programs and what to do to best benefit his ownership. He was always forthcoming with his advice when asked. I miss his input so much. IMO a major part of the problem is people are petty and jealous and mistakenly feel everyone should have the same access to dates and inventory without putting the time or effort into finding and booking what they want. One of the ways to adjust is bitch less and work more. If you know you want something plan ahead, understand your ARP and take advantage of it. The reservations you want aren’t going to come to you magically. Folks that do find their way no matter what.
> OMG stop worrying someone is getting more than you are, in the case of Wyndham they are paying for it. This is not first grade where all the kids cry NO FAIR.


When you say paying for it does that include the VIP ownerships that came along with buying certain resale deeds?
Like I said in a previous post "loose lips sank his ship". 



ronparise said:


> So the end point of this discussion is that some  contracts are not coded as resale, (no flag) and they transfer with no flag
> 
> I don't understand why but it is and I was able to collect enough of these contracts to become VIP





ronparise said:


> Or Ron wasn't smart enough to keep his mouth shut


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## raygo123 (Apr 9, 2022)

Since '83 to today, things are much better. I lost no benefits since I started.

Sent from my T906 using Tapatalk


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## nicemann (Apr 9, 2022)

I am one of the many people that sales people told to buy developer points and you can use your resale points with your VIP level.  I have only bought resale but heard that speech many times.  They tried to sell me on the book/cancel/rebook for a discount if I become VIP.  Even had some tell me how I can make money renting out vacations online.  I always just sit there and keep saying no till they get made, give me my gift card gift, and I leave.  So happy I did not fall for these sales tactics when I was a green owner.  

Now I just start the conversation off saying I am a resale only and will only be a resale owner.  I understand I agreed to a 60 minute session so we can chat but most things you tell me will not apply to me and there is a zero chance I will buy anything.  Most of the time I can get out in less than 15 minutes.  I'm always polite about it.  I let them know I told the parking pass people I was not interested and why but they told me to come anyways for the gift.  Typically listen to them trash that team for sending me there and we part each other.


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## jules54 (Apr 10, 2022)

WManning said:


> When you say paying for it does that include the VIP ownerships that came along with buying certain resale deeds?
> Like I said in a previous post "loose lips sank his ship".



No I meant paying for the yearly and monthly maintenance fees and of course the initial cost of contracts that elevated them to VIP status. As many of the posts indicate resale contracts have nothing to do with VIP level since the events last August so I’m not certain I understand the questions.
I agree loose lips sink ships. Of course years ago Wyndham didn’t monitor the Tug boards like they do now. Also there was less worry of someone digging up past posts and quoting the posts years later to bring more turmoil to a discussion. I myself would rather send someone a private message if the information might impact negatively if posted.


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## Don40 (Apr 11, 2022)

One of my Biggest issue now is not being able to book one nite stays.  So many times I would splice together vacations with a room change to make a 3 or 4 day stay, but now that option is gone.  There are so many single nite stays that are holding rooms vacant because of the minimum nite required.  
personally, Extra Vacation rents for 1 nite no issues and use the excuse of COVID so they continue to get rooms at high demand resorts free of charge and us owners are blocked from the rooms based on Wyndhams greed.  For example pompano beach during spring break had single nite available at Royal Vista, Santa Barbara, Sea Gardens that excluded many multi day vacations.  When I asked the resort if they had empty room they said no fully booked but there were single nites available days before.  I bet this is going on in other areas with huge demand. I saw this in Panama Beach also a relative rented through extra vacations the day before our trip and no rooms were available for the length of stay because of one nite blocks.


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## CO skier (Apr 11, 2022)

jules54 said:


> Also there was less worry of someone digging up past posts and quoting the posts years later to bring more turmoil to a discussion.


replace with ...  "balanced perspective" ...


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## lost patience (Apr 13, 2022)

Updating to add #15.   We are Founders - a little over 1M with 2 PICs. Plus a good amount of resale points. Here are my thoughts from the last few years, in no particular order.

1. Decrease in Guest Certificates
2. Loss of the ability to use our guest certificates any day of the year (caused by blackout dates)
3. Loss of a system that I could log into quickly.
4. Loss of a system where I could maneuver to a resort quickly.
5. Loss of a system that did not kick me out repeatedly as I attempt to maneuver to a resort.
6. Loss of a system with simple upgrade paths. A 1br would upgrade to a 1dx. A 1br would upgrade to any available 2br.
7. Split of resale from developer. Mid year. Very little notice. My account is still not correct. I'll not argue that it was a unintended benefit that we certainly enjoyed, and I'll not argue that Wyndham had the "right" to change.  I am frustrated with the midyear cut in. Why not wait until 2023 as compared to the mess of the mid year cut in that we are all now dealing with as our 2022 reservations are a mix of points.
8. Loss of a system where searching was quick and easy.
9. Loss of 1N stays.
10. Loss of freedom to share my membership with friends and family. Now we are worried we will "trip" the commercial threshold.
11. Lost of trust. This is a big one. There are just too many "overbooking" cases shared here and on FB.
12. Lack of help with overbooking. Too bad - here is a 1br for the 12 people that were going to fit into a 4br.
13. Poorly implemented "guest blackout" dates with no way to see how many were used.
14. Staff that is not well versed with the system. Not sure if staff today is not trained, or if previously there were not as many "rules", therefore i was not calling and asking questions. 
15.  Loss of ability to easily see all reservations as well as owner or guest name (if a guest certificate has been added).  currently only 3 at a time, and then must dig into the reservation to see the name.  After verifying the name, it is back to the beginning and once again scroll 3 at ttime.


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## ronparise (Apr 14, 2022)

troy12n said:


> The elephant in the room is that things like credit pool, cancel and rebook, VIP benefits removed from resale points and reductions in the number of "free" GC's is that these things were abused to great extent by certain people. Including some people here. Yes, i'm pointing at you Ron Parise and people like you running businesses out of their timeshare ownership.
> 
> So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system. Wyndham certainly deserves some blame on some of the points mentioned, but you can't blame them for people like Ron turning 1 million points worth of reservations into 4 million by booking inside the discount window just to cancel and get more points out of it. And the other people who got sued by Wyndham for what amounts to fraud.
> 
> ...



I was wondering if anyone would remember me.  I do find it a little strange, though, that its someone that came on to TUG  3 years after I gave up my ownership is complaining about my "abuse" of the system. With all due respect, I didnt abuse the system... I used it.


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## ronparise (Apr 15, 2022)

WManning said:


> When you say paying for it does that include the VIP ownerships that came along with buying certain resale deeds?
> Like I said in a previous post "loose lips sank his ship".





jules54 said:


> No I meant paying for the yearly and monthly maintenance fees and of course the initial cost of contracts that elevated them to VIP status. As many of the posts indicate resale contracts have nothing to do with VIP level since the events last August so I’m not certain I understand the questions.
> I agree loose lips sink ships. Of course years ago Wyndham didn’t monitor the Tug boards like they do now. Also there was less worry of someone digging up past posts and quoting the posts years later to bring more turmoil to a discussion. I myself would rather send someone a private message if the information might impact negatively if posted.




WManning has it right, or perhaps half right. I had  platinum accounts built with just one $12000 purchase and the rest were  converted fixed weeks purchased on ebay.  I learned how to do this from another Tugger.   Later, another Tugger and myself figured out how to build VIP accounts with only resale contracts... 

This was the one thing I didnt talk about on TUG... well that and the fact that Wyndham was buying my stripped contracts

The Wyndham lawyer I worked with after Aug 2016 seemed genuinely  surprised that this was happening  The point is, that my accounts were already frozen before they figured out what I was doing


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## chapjim (Apr 15, 2022)

WManning said:


> My resale points work the same if not better now. The availability of rooms to book has increased now that Wyndham used blackout dates to restrict GC'S on busy holiday dates. The elimination of cancel and re book also helped availability.  Last minute rentals used to be dominated by a few Wyndham owners *abusing resale points with* *VIP discounts and upgrades but that loophole has been closed *also. The concentrated effort by Wyndham to end owners from running a commercial rental business has help all owners book for personal use. How could anyone complain about the closing  of loopholes or eliminating abuse of rentals if it the changes help availability?



VIP discounts and upgrades are not loopholes in any sense of the word.  They are benefits, bought and paid for by VIP owners.  VIP owners were not abusing resale points.  Resale points were not separately identified until fairly recently.


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## chapjim (Apr 15, 2022)

WManning said:


> What Ron did was all above board. Wyndham  was a buyer of his stripped deeds.The only thing he was guilty of was discussing his stripping of deeds on this forum. Loose lips sank his ship.



That makes absolutely no sense!!  If Wyndham already knew what Ron was doing, what difference would it make if he discussed it on TUG?  Did TUG tell Wyndham shut down Ron Parise?


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## CO skier (Apr 16, 2022)

troy12n said:


> So maybe rather than blaming Wyndham, blame the people who abuse the system.





ronparise said:


> ... I didnt abuse the system... I used it.





 on April 20 2017 ronparise said:


> These new rules* won't  stop all the abuse, but it will likely stop a bunch*



emphasis added to jog some memories.


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## CO skier (Apr 16, 2022)

On April 20 2017 ronparise said:


> exactly.right...no borrowing (Ed. from future Use Years using the Credit Pool)....and you can probably blame me for that one


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## ronparise (Apr 17, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> Call them system related benefits, then.
> - Cancel Rebook was not a loophole.  Might not have been a specific benefit, but, it was not a loophole.  You'd cancel a reservation and it was immediately available.  Now, you cancel and you don't have a clue as to if/when it will ever come back.
> - Resale being treated as Developer may not have been a benefit, but, the system allowed it.



The way I looked at it was that it was two operations; 1) a cancellation.  and 2) a reservation,  As you say  Neither one is an abuse of anything.  both are 100% right and proper things to do.   I understand the bad optics and why Wyndham made the changes that they did, but closing that so called "loophole" did not make more reservations available. 

Using my favorite rental, Mardi Gras as an example. There are only so many rooms at La Belle Maison I usually had 10 reserved for Mardi Gras; one studio and the rest one bedrooms,  These reservations would be profitable, with or without discounts,  I would never  cancel and they would never be available to the rest of the ownership. I think the same thing would be true for the3 and 4 bedrooms at Bonnet Creek, Bike Week in Daytona,  and other high demand reservations


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## ronparise (Apr 17, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> When they took away the Credit Pool, I was extremely angry.  And Ron was who I was angry because he bragged about how he stripped contracts and then unloaded them.  It did not take long, however, for me to shift my anger toward Wyndham.  They could have fixed the stripping problem without penalizing all other owners.  I can not blame owners, I will blame Wyndham, they could have fixed issues without punishing all owners.


Thanks for reconsidering

There really is nothing wrong with what I did, The general complaint is that I was able to use the points before the maintenance fees were paid....But thats not how the credit pool worked.  For me to use 'my" 2018 points in 2016 someone else had to have deposited their 2016 points into the pool. and that person would have paid the fees. The concern of course is that I might walk away from my ownership and leave the future fees Im responsible for, unpaid. That of course is a possibility for every owner all the time. (I could have died holding 30 million points)  and of course if I was to transfer one of these stripped contracts to a less than knowledgeable  buyer "sticking them with the future fees, that would be a problem. But I didnt do that

None of that mattered to wyndham  They were unhappy with me their broker and their employee that signed off on the sale.   Their lawyer gave me a hard time saying I should have known the contracts should have had the points attached. My answer was that I was dealing with the single most knowledgeable buyer anywhere.   If it was a problem, their employees should have known that.  He basically said that I took advantage of them.  My answer.... "You are telling me that some 70 yo in their underwear in their back bedroom trying to scratch out an income. is taking advantage of the Wyndham World Wide Corp?  Nonsense, If anyone is taking advantage of anyone its you and your sales staff selling this stuff at $150/1000, points. Stuff you got from me at $5/1000" 
Even if they had to wait 2 years, paying the fees as they came due,  to sell the points Their cost was less than their target price for new points


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## WManning (Apr 18, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Thanks for reconsidering
> 
> There really is nothing wrong with what I did, The general complaint is that I was able to use the points before the maintenance fees were paid....But thats not how the credit pool worked.  For me to use 'my" 2018 points in 2016 someone else had to have deposited their 2016 points into the pool. and that person would have paid the fees. The concern of course is that I might walk away from my ownership and leave the future fees Im responsible for, unpaid. That of course is a possibility for every owner all the time. (I could have died holding 30 million points)  and of course if I was to transfer one of these stripped contracts to a less than knowledgeable  buyer "sticking them with the future fees, that would be a problem. But I didnt do that
> 
> ...


So in essence you beat them at their own game. At least you were transparent about no points being available and without the lies and deception their sales team uses. In my opinion it was a win for everyone, you unloaded stripped contracts and Wyndham picked up inventory at pennies on the dollar.


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## DeeDibble (Apr 20, 2022)

mcnamarami said:


> Has anyone tracked the changes to Wyndham owners over the past 5 to 7 years that have resulted in owner benefits being lost or reduced over time?  It seems that many large corporations have done this to benefit stockholders or upper management at the expense of the owners who once had decent benefits to ownership.  I don’t think Wyndham is exempt from this reduction of benefits over time.  It might be interesting to see a list of such reductions.


Yes we have!    I just responded to a post on Facebook talking about this….this is some of my response to that post:…..”This is very troublesome that they are saying they can cancel reservations made with resale points.  I’m not a lawyer, but I think that’s illegal…..we have already had to eat their “ sh!!” Sandwiches by them stripping VIP benefits from owners…..Wyndham got their “retail” price on those contracts when they sold them to the owners that purchased them from the developer,  they are still and always getting the maintenance fees from the owners of points purchased from the secondary market.   The contracts have the same language as any other contracts pertaining to use.   If this is true, I see a big class action suit on them.WYNDHAM HAS NOT BEEN HARMED by any owner that owns and uses there points. Nor have any other owners….we own what we own!  None of this stuff would have started happening had Wyndham not set up the “rental program”.  It’s real interesting how they “ spin the tale” when we purchased back in the 90’s….. it’s exclusive to the owners….you are OWNERS protected by Real Estate laws…..after the crap they have pulled on us in the last 6 months….I’m at my limit with them


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## DeeDibble (Apr 20, 2022)

Eric B said:


> The difficulty with this is in defining what is rental abuse and what is not.  There isn't a per se "rule" against renting out Wyndham stays - instead the thing they are trying to limit is "commercial" activity or use, which for better or worse they do not define.  IMHO, it's tough to call something "commercial" when someone rents out stays for which they've paid full price in points and remained within the free GC allotment they get - this probably has some relationship to Wyndham's actions with respect to reducing the number of free GCs that the upper level VIPs get.
> 
> I do not have an issue with folks that have excess points in a year renting out stays using them and I don't really believe that Wyndham does either.  If they did, they wouldn't give out as many free GCs as they do.  I think that part of the motivation for the "cracking down" on an activity that many of the Wyndham sales people encouraged over the years is that when they were allowing VIPs to make bookings to rent out, then cancel and rebook those bookings at a discount, they were greatly subsidizing those rental activities and allowing for reduced prices by the renters, costing them both on the points they were subsidizing the bookings with and the lower rents they get through Extra Holidays.  If you follow the money, you'll realize that Wyndham is not doing things to benefit owners booking for their personal use out of the goodness of their hearts but instead fixing a business problem.


Yea….bottom line: they just snuffed the competition!


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## paxsarah (Apr 20, 2022)

DeeDibble said:


> Yes we have!    I just responded to a post on Facebook talking about this….this is some of my response to that post:…..”This is very troublesome that they are saying they can cancel reservations made with resale points.  I’m not a lawyer, but I think that’s illegal…..we have already had to eat their “ sh!!” Sandwiches by them stripping VIP benefits from owners…..Wyndham got their “retail” price on those contracts when they sold them to the owners that purchased them from the developer,  they are still and always getting the maintenance fees from the owners of points purchased from the secondary market.   The contracts have the same language as any other contracts pertaining to use.   If this is true, I see a big class action suit on them.WYNDHAM HAS NOT BEEN HARMED by any owner that owns and uses there points. Nor have any other owners….we own what we own!  None of this stuff would have started happening had Wyndham not set up the “rental program”.  It’s real interesting how they “ spin the tale” when we purchased back in the 90’s….. it’s exclusive to the owners….you are OWNERS protected by Real Estate laws…..after the crap they have pulled on us in the last 6 months….I’m at my limit with them


As I said on FB, this is not happening, it’s just a salesperson lie. Nothing is happening to resale owners’ access and it’s not worth generating outrage over.


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## troy12n (Apr 25, 2022)

DeeDibble said:


> Yes we have!    I just responded to a post on Facebook talking about this….this is some of my response to that post:…..”This is very troublesome that they are saying they can cancel reservations made with resale points.  I’m not a lawyer, but I think that’s illegal…..we have already had to eat their “ sh!!” Sandwiches by them stripping VIP benefits from owners…..Wyndham got their “retail” price on those contracts when they sold them to the owners that purchased them from the developer,  they are still and always getting the maintenance fees from the owners of points purchased from the secondary market.   The contracts have the same language as any other contracts pertaining to use.   If this is true, I see a big class action suit on them.WYNDHAM HAS NOT BEEN HARMED by any owner that owns and uses there points. Nor have any other owners….we own what we own!  None of this stuff would have started happening had Wyndham not set up the “rental program”.  It’s real interesting how they “ spin the tale” when we purchased back in the 90’s….. it’s exclusive to the owners….you are OWNERS protected by Real Estate laws…..after the crap they have pulled on us in the last 6 months….I’m at my limit with them



Posts like this are so laughable... It doesn't matter when you bought your timeshare. You don't have the rights you think you have. And Wyndham's track record of lawsuit victories proves this. If you are really that bitter, I suggest you throw in your chips and exit. Or better yet, sue them and join the list of people who thought they "had rights" they actually didn't.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 25, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Posts like this are so laughable... It doesn't matter when you bought your timeshare. You don't have the rights you think you have. And Wyndham's track record of lawsuit victories proves this. If you are really that bitter, I suggest you throw in your chips and exit. Or better yet, sue them and join the list of people who thought they "had rights" they actually didn't.


I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand my contract, I don't own any physical property. I own annual use rights to a property at a time and place agreed upon by me and Wyndham when I make a reservation. The properties I reserve NEVER BELONG TO ME. I am not free to sub-let them to someone else, to paint them, to change the furniture, etc. etc. etc. I only own the right to use them for the timeframe specified in the reservation and I agree to the terms of use as specified by Wyndham. I'm pretty sure every other owner has the same or similar contract. I'm also pretty sure that's why they call it a "time-share".


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## comicbookman (Apr 25, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand my contract, I don't own any physical property. I own annual use rights to a property at a time and place agreed upon by me and Wyndham when I make a reservation. The properties I reserve NEVER BELONG TO ME. I am not free to sub-let them to someone else, to paint them, to change the furniture, etc. etc. etc. I only own the right to use them for the timeframe specified in the reservation and I agree to the terms of use as specified by Wyndham. I'm pretty sure every other owner has the same or similar contract. I'm also pretty sure that's why they call it a "time-share".


If you have deed (not Club Wyndham Access) for points what you own is X number of points out of a total of Y for the entire property.  You own a really small percentage of actual physical property (hence the need for a deed) That is why the number of points in a contract do not need to have any correlation to the number of points required to book a certain type of room at a certain time of year.  What you described is if you own a week.  Most Wyndham owners at this point own points, unless they are access.


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## HitchHiker71 (Apr 26, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> If you have deed (not Club Wyndham Access) for points what you own is X number of points out of a total of Y for the entire property.  You own a really small percentage of actual physical property (hence the need for a deed) That is why the number of points in a contract do not need to have any correlation to the number of points required to book a certain type of room at a certain time of year.  What you described is if you own a week.  Most Wyndham owners at this point own points, unless they are access.



This has always been a bit of a gray area for me.  A weeks based deed is typically DI - meaning you own that week and unless you explicitly opt-out of using that week each year - it remains yours and will sit empty if you don't opt-out of your week (by exchanging it into a trading network such as RCI for example).  A CWS UDI contract - while deeded - does require opt-in - if you don't use your points each year - then the resort doesn't sit empty just because you don't use your points.  You own the right to use those points - but there is no guarantee of availability at your home resort for your points owned at that same resort. So in many respects a UDI CWS contract more closely resembles RTU than anything else IMHO.

Lastly - Access owners also own points - just via a shared trust that holds the deeds - as opposed to holding the deeds directly.  Both have an opt-in entitlement to use their points against existing inventory held by the trust itself.


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 26, 2022)

@ronparise aren't you glad we still remember you, fondly or otherwise. 

I was in the fondly camp, BYW.  Glad to see you posting a bit.


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## Don40 (Apr 27, 2022)

Most people do not realize a major cause of the crack down by Wyndham..  Wyndham still has no idea of how many total points are in the system. Their computer system and accounting department could not reconcile how many points are in the system.  The cancel rebook caused “some“ cancellations to get all your points back and your room for free.  This issue got exploited and some took it to extremes, cancelling every reservation sometimes multiple times and getting their points refund. Some were taking the free points and then cashing it out to pay maintenence and other perks. Things got out of control and they started to look at account holders with large points balance, and discovered that issue plus others. NDA were required to save face for Wyndham‘s shambolic accounting and computer failures.

Remember Wyndham roots are from corrupt entities, a bunch of timeshare sales people are the leaders of the entity one reason for such lose accounting and lousy computer system till this day.


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## Kozman (Apr 27, 2022)

Perhaps no one has mentioned the ability to sell/transfer excess points from your account to another persons account. This was a very convenient way to dispose of points and not lose them!


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## comicbookman (Apr 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> This has always been a bit of a gray area for me.  A weeks based deed is typically DI - meaning you own that week and unless you explicitly opt-out of using that week each year - it remains yours and will sit empty if you don't opt-out of your week (by exchanging it into a trading network such as RCI for example).  A CWS UDI contract - while deeded - does require opt-in - if you don't use your points each year - then the resort doesn't sit empty just because you don't use your points.  You own the right to use those points - but there is no guarantee of availability at your home resort for your points owned at that same resort. So in many respects a UDI CWS contract more closely resembles RTU than anything else IMHO.
> 
> Lastly - Access owners also own points - just via a shared trust that holds the deeds - as opposed to holding the deeds directly.  Both have an opt-in entitlement to use their points against existing inventory held by the trust itself.



 Yes, a points deed requires opt-in, because you contractually commit your points to the trust for exchange purposes.  That does not diminish your direct ownership of a small piece of the whole resort.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 27, 2022)

Don40 said:


> Most people do not realize a major cause of the crack down by Wyndham..  Wyndham still has no idea of how many total points are in the system. Their computer system and accounting department could not reconcile how many points are in the system.  The cancel rebook caused “some“ cancellations to get all your points back and your room for free.  This issue got exploited and some took it to extremes, cancelling every reservation sometimes multiple times and getting their points refund. Some were taking the free points and then cashing it out to pay maintenence and other perks. Things got out of control and they started to look at account holders with large points balance, and discovered that issue plus others. NDA were required to save face for Wyndham‘s shambolic accounting and computer failures.
> 
> Remember Wyndham roots are from corrupt entities, a bunch of timeshare sales people are the leaders of the entity one reason for such lose accounting and lousy computer system till this day.



Excellent points... there was a lot going on. The stripped accounts, and Ron's name, gets thrown around alot, but there was so much more going on. 

The rest was either system errors on Wyndham's part - adding points randomly as well as no auditability (likely still isn't) on their part. How many people here would like to have Wyndham manage your bank accounts? Here we are in 2022, and Wyndham continues to have shambolic accounting issues and computer failures. The website is worse than ever, data integrity issues, the list goes on.

And anything else going on, Wyndham promoted, and used the practices as sales tools:
* Cancel/rebook - far and wide the most widely promoted technique by sales. They loved to tell everyone how they could can always get 50% discounts off their bookings. And, of course, would forget to tell you the risk (that you could lose a reservation) in the process. Ask about the risk and they'd stumble about a bit.
* Renting
* Rolling points - buy a contract with a different use year, roll your points so they never expire
* Buy into VIP and your resale points will also get VIP benefits

It's comical to me to some people hold up some silly lawsuit, that as you read it you would know better than to take to court. Who has a link to the one where they took advantage of the elderly? Wyndham doesn't always win and when it's not in their best interest to be exposed, they bring out the nondisclosures.

And how come no one thinks it's unethical to buy resale contracts - you know what people paid for those originally. Where's the shamin there?

You have to give it to Wyndham. They definitely have the psychology of selling timeshares down. At some point resale owners versus VIP were someone pitted against each other. Now they've convinced a considerable amount of owners that they are making these changes for the benefit of owners, blaming things on the boogie man mega renter. Owner priority is for the good of the owne, right? This is all laughable to me, what people won't believe.


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## HitchHiker71 (Apr 27, 2022)

lost patience said:


> Updating to add #15.   We are Founders - a little over 1M with 2 PICs. Plus a good amount of resale points. Here are my thoughts from the last few years, in no particular order.
> 
> 1. Decrease in Guest Certificates
> 2. Loss of the ability to use our guest certificates any day of the year (caused by blackout dates)
> ...



This is a great list - thanks for putting this together.  Wondering aloud if we should create a sticky thread with this list?


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## Jan M. (Apr 27, 2022)

Don40 said:


> Most people do not realize a major cause of the crack down by Wyndham..  Wyndham still has no idea of how many total points are in the system. Their computer system and accounting department could not reconcile how many points are in the system.  The cancel rebook caused “some“ cancellations to get all your points back and your room for free.  This issue got exploited and some took it to extremes, cancelling every reservation sometimes multiple times and getting their points refund. Some were taking the free points and then cashing it out to pay maintenence and other perks. Things got out of control and they started to look at account holders with large points balance, and discovered that issue plus others. NDA were required to save face for Wyndham‘s shambolic accounting and computer failures.
> 
> Remember Wyndham roots are from corrupt entities, a bunch of timeshare sales people are the leaders of the entity one reason for such lose accounting and lousy computer system till this day.



Many of us who have been around on TUG for awhile have heard or used the term silos to describe Wyndhams management structure. One hand doesn't know what the other does or is currently doing. Unless things have changed in the last few years the upper management is mainly comprised of people who came up through sales. Everything Wyndham does is with the main focus of a benefit to sales which is understandable because they are a business. However the inherent danger is a lack of balance when the departments that consider themselves "the money makers" dominate to such an extent that input, needs or concerns from other areas gets ignored, drowned out or disparaged.

Some of you may not understand how critical Inventory control is to a business. If the inventory control system the business uses is a poor one and/or whoever is in charge of it isn't good at their job and doesn't have competent people working under them, then the business will inevitably have problems. In some cases big enough to cause a business to founder (lol about using the other meaning of that word) or even go under.

There are an exact number of points in the system. This is a known number as each resort has a fixed number of units, each with 52 weeks. Think of it as a starting balance. Some of those points are held by owners and some by Wyndham. For simplicity I'm putting CWA under Wyndham as they control it as managers of the trust but I'd consider it a subset. The balance between the owners and Wyndham changes whenever something is transferred between them. Owner to owner transfers don't change that balance.

Now think of what you see when you log into your credit card and see pending transactions. These would be the deeds and contracts in the process of being transferred from or back to Wyndham. With sales and equity trades however long the recession period is would be how long they would remain pending transactions.

Anything with Certified Exit should be logged in as a pending transaction as soon as they receive all the signed documents back from the owner(s). There should be a daily report of the deeds and contracts in day one, day two and so on until transfers back to Wyndham are finalized.

Going back to owner/Wyndham sales and equity trade pending transactions.  For accounting purposes there should be a daily tracking of them. It should show the number in day one of what ever the recession period is. The number in day one of one, day one of two, etc.

It doesn't take amazing computer skills to set up something that's basically a spreadsheet. Nor does it take a great deal of time to enter a few more keystrokes that would generate the necessary information. I'm no computer whiz and even I can do something similar albeit in a smaller scale.

What I am very good at is organizing data, looking at the numbers and extrapolating pertinent information from that. Anyone who can't do that should go back to being a data entry clerk and not heading up Wyndham's accounting department.

It sure seems like Wyndham doesn't know their accounting is so bad that they're not even pulling up the ramp and closing the door to the henhouse at night. After far too many eggs and chickens turn up missing they scramble around trying to figure out how to fix the problem and who to blame. I'd equate what they've done as the dumb as dirt city folk playing at being a farmer and posting a sign out front saying no theives, foxes, snakes or such allowed. We've seen and are still seeing how well that's working. Now think about what a farmer who knows his business would do in addition to having the brains to pull up the ramp into the henhouse and shut the door. Even before the first hint of trouble he'd have a good dog out there to guard the farmyard. If that wasn't enough he'd set up a line with tin cans and aluminum pie pans around the chicken yard as a perimeter alarm and would himself be sleeping light with his shotgun handy.


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## Eric B (Apr 27, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> posting a sign out front saying no theives, foxes, snakes or such allowed



Would a sign saying "no more than two thieves, foxes, snakes or such allowed per year" do the job?


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## Jan M. (Apr 27, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Would a sign saying "no more than two thieves, foxes, snakes or such allowed per year" do the job?



Well I'd be inclined to call the "two per year" as allowing family or a good friend to take a few eggs to bake a cake. Or letting them take a hen that quit laying to cook for Sunday dinner. Lol

It's the farmer's responsibility to protect his chickens and know how many he should have if he wants to have enough eggs and chickens to feed his family and some left over to sell.


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## ronparise (Apr 29, 2022)

Don40 said:


> Most people do not realize a major cause of the crack down by Wyndham..  Wyndham still has no idea of how many total points are in the system. Their computer system and accounting department could not reconcile how many points are in the system.  The cancel rebook caused “some“ cancellations to get all your points back and your room for free.  This issue got exploited and some took it to extremes, cancelling every reservation sometimes multiple times and getting their points refund. Some were taking the free points and then cashing it out to pay maintenence and other perks. Things got out of control and they started to look at account holders with large points balance, and discovered that issue plus others. NDA were required to save face for Wyndham‘s shambolic accounting and computer failures.
> 
> Remember Wyndham roots are from corrupt entities, a bunch of timeshare sales people are the leaders of the entity one reason for such lose accounting and lousy computer system till this day.




That was the whole point of suspending all those accounts in August 2016.  Buying me out got rid of me but it did nothing to solve their inventory control issues

I dont believe however that wyndham's poor inventory control was the real problem. As I see it the problem is the same problem that has plagued timeshares since the beginning. and that is* there are always some dates and some resorts that are more desirable than others. *

In the early days of fixed week timeshares, red weeks cost more than blue weeks but the maintenance fees were the same,   As time went on and the original owners had sold or had died,  the weeks traded on the secondary market and the purchase price became less significant. The guy that owned a mud week, with a dumpster view at a ski resort was upset that he paid the same fees as the guy that owned a week in season with a mountain view. And that upset-ness  resulted in lots of blue week owners walking away.  

Floating weeks timeshares were an attempt to fix the problem with a first come first served approach, The problem with this approach is even a bigger deal  (for some), than fixed weeks, If a unit sits vacant at the beginning of the year, Its possible that at the end of the year some owner will be unable to make a reservation. He paid his fees but there are no vacancies ...Id be pissed.   Ive seen this happen at Avenue Plaza

Points in a multi resort system work very much like a really big floating weeks resort. If every point is sold and if reservations are made on a first come first serve basis (which they are) there will be lots of folks that cant get either the resort they want or the dates they want. If I want a 4 bedroom presidential with a fireworks view at Bonnet Creek but I have to settle for four one bedrooms at Cypress Palms Im pissed.
The only guarantee (and its not really a guarantee) is that you will be able to get some time at some resort every  year. and that you have the same chance as everyone else does to get what you want

My "hats off" to Wyndham for shifting  the blame from the system and themselves to the evil mega renters. I wonder what they will do when even after the megarenters are all gone, Its always been the same number of points chasing the same number of reservations, the problem persists


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## paxsarah (Apr 30, 2022)

ronparise said:


> I wonder what they will do when even after the megarenters are all gone, Its always been the same number of points chasing the same number of reservations, the problem persists


This is directed more at the owners in the FB groups, which on average aren’t as savvy as TUG owners, but even though Wyndham’s recent further attempts to curb renting seem that they’re surely allowing for more individual owners to book and occupy units, why do you think that the owner who gets that newly freed-up booking is going to be _you_? Some owners seem to think that when they start thinking about their summer vacation in March or so, someone should be waiting with a week at the beach on a silver platter for them. There’s even an owner here who said he shouldn’t have to be up at midnight to book a popular resort during an event week - he should be able to get up in the morning and book it. And if it’s not available in the morning, it’s because of the megarenters and not regular owners who cared enough to be awake at midnight. If those points are still in the system, you’re still competing against other owners for the same scarce desirable weeks.


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## CO skier (Apr 30, 2022)

Some people seem to think that if renting cannot be eliminated entirely, Wyndham should not do anything to improve the situation.

There is no single silver bullet solution, so there are "changes in benefits over time" to put more owners (and fewer renters) on vacation in Club Wyndham.  It started way back in 2008 with the elimination of owner-to-owner transfer of credits -- not all that effective.  Ten years later, automatic upgrades were introduced which pratically eliminated the scam of cancel-cancel-rebook-upgrading premium reservations in Presidential units for 50% the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom.  The increased availbility in these premium units was immediate and commented upon in a number of TUG posts at the time.  Sure, these units would eventually be booked at full points costs.  Wyndham did its part in making these units available; it was now up to the owners to book the units for their family vacation.  There are still some Presidential units offered for rent, but not at the "less than maintenance fees" pricing of the cancel/rebook days.

Some (non-hybrid, obviously) VIPs applauded the elimination of VIP discounts on resale points as a step in restoring VIP exclusivity.  The effect on mega-renter businesses was immediately apparent by the number of 1,000,000+ point contracts that appeared on eBay.  These contracts were not scooped by old or new rental operations.  These contracts would sell in the $8,000 neighborhood back in the days of cancel/rebok.  Some of these contracts were now originally priced at this point, but eventually sold for less than $100 bid.  This 2M points contract sold for $1 bid:









						WYNDHAM PALM AIRE 1,964,000 POINTS, ANNUAL, TIMESHARE, DEEDED  | eBay
					

Wyndham Palm Aire. Wyndham Palm Aire provides a wide array of vacation activities. Wyndham Points. If that happens we are not responsible if the points do not show up in your account until your current anniversary date approaches and you will still be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees...



					www.ebay.com
				




The expansion of guest restricted "Owner Priority" dates is just the latest "benefits change" in the progression over the last 15 years.  The "it's not us; Wyndham is the problem" renters tried to tie this change to benefitting Wyndham Extra Holidays program -- until it was confirmed that Extra Holidays was subject to the same Owner Priority dates.  Just another Wyndham conspiracy theory shot down.


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## ronparise (Apr 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Some people seem to think that if renting cannot be eliminated entirely, Wyndham should not do anything to improve the situation.
> 
> There is no single silver bullet solution, so there are "changes in benefits over time" to put more owners (and fewer renters) on vacation in Club Wyndham.  It started way back in 2008 with the elimination of owner-to-owner transfer of credits -- not all that effective.  Ten years later, automatic upgrades were introduced which pratically eliminated the scam of cancel-cancel-rebook-upgrading premium reservations in Presidential units for 50% the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom.  The increased availbility in these premium units was immediate and commented upon in a number of TUG posts at the time.  Sure, these units would eventually be booked at full points costs.  Wyndham did its part in making these units available; it was now up to the owners to book the units for their family vacation.  There are still some Presidential units offered for rent, but not at the "less than maintenance fees" pricing of the cancel/rebook days.
> 
> ...



There is nothing Wyndham can do to increase availability There are always only a finite number of units available I agree that now the limited number of reservations are likely to be made bu one class of owner than another, but there will still be more owners that dont get their reservation than those that do

I see it much like the lottery. You may think I have a better chance of winning because I bought 100 tickets and you bought just one and you would by right, but it’s a distinction without a difference because a gazillian to 1 is not much different than a gazillian to 100


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## CO skier (Apr 30, 2022)

ronparise said:


> There is nothing Wyndham can do to increase availability There are always only a finite number of units available I agree that now the limited number of reservations are likely to be made bu one class of owner than another, but there will still be more owners that dont get their reservation than those that do
> 
> I see it much like the lottery. You may think I have a better chance of winning because I bought 100 tickets and you bought just one and you would by right, but it’s a distinction without a difference because a gazillian to 1 is not much different than a gazillian to 100


Refer back to post #40 (on page 2) and the links therein with TUG posts commenting on the increased availability of units and large Presidential units in particular.

After the introduction of automatic upgrades, it was easy to win the lottery for a 3 or 4 bedroom Presidential room -- just go online and buy one ticket (book the reservation).


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## Rolltydr (Apr 30, 2022)

We have 5 presidential reservations right now that we will use, not rent, in the next few months. Only one was booked at 13 months and it was booked during the day, not at midnight. Oh, and that is a 4 bedroom presidential. I had never even seen one of those on my available list before. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence and Wyndham  making changes that make more units available to owners and fewer available to renters has nothing to do with it.


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## WManning (Apr 30, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Would a sign saying "no more than two thieves, foxes, snakes or such allowed per year" do the job?


This sign would eliminate all of the sales people.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Some people seem to think that if renting cannot be eliminated entirely, Wyndham should not do anything to improve the situation.
> 
> There is no single silver bullet solution, so there are "changes in benefits over time" to put more owners (and fewer renters) on vacation in Club Wyndham.  It started way back in 2008 with the elimination of owner-to-owner transfer of credits -- not all that effective.  Ten years later, automatic upgrades were introduced which pratically eliminated the scam of cancel-cancel-rebook-upgrading premium reservations in Presidential units for 50% the cost of a studio or 1 bedroom.  The increased availbility in these premium units was immediate and commented upon in a number of TUG posts at the time.  Sure, these units would eventually be booked at full points costs.  Wyndham did its part in making these units available; it was now up to the owners to book the units for their family vacation.  There are still some Presidential units offered for rent, but not at the "less than maintenance fees" pricing of the cancel/rebook days.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding me? You are using this as an example (of what)? A 2 million point contract with maintenance fees over $7.50/1000??? No thank you, even if it did get VIP benefits.  

Seriously, why aren't they giving it back to Wyndham via certified exit. My best guess when I see this stuff is the seller doesn't know any better (doesn't know about certified exit) and has gotten hooked up with a reseller. What a shame. The owner continues to pay maintenance fees on this, and could be done with it.  Or maybe Wyndham won't take it?  Who knows. 

I still hear my father's voice, dripping with sarcasm, when I talked to him about certified exit 'Oh that's awful nice of them'.  But... you have to look at the big picture and do what is best for you. And if it were mine, I think I'd be giving it back.

Do you own any developer points? Your examples are often close but off a tad. But if you think auto upgrades are the silver bullet that rid the world of megarenters, good for you. Go drink some more kool-aid.


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## CO skier (Apr 30, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> But if you think auto upgrades are the silver bullet that rid the world of megarenters, good for you.


Reading comprehension is, clearly, not your strong suit.


Allow me to repeat myself with some emphasis added for your benefit.


CO skier said:


> Some people seem to think that if renting cannot be eliminated entirely, Wyndham should not do anything to improve the situation.





CO skier said:


> *There is no single silver bullet solution,* so there are "changes in benefits over time" to put more owners (and fewer renters) on vacation in Club Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Apr 30, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Are you kidding me? You are using this as an example (of what)? A 2 million point contract with maintenance fees over $7.50/1000??? No thank you, even if it did get VIP benefits.


Well ... that is you.

If the owner previously used the 50% VIP discount on all the points, then the maintenance fees would effectively be $3.75/1000.  You have to admit that (was) a very good rate.  Now that resale points are no longer eligible for the VIP discount, this contract has no value to you and most everyone else at a maintenance fee of $7.50/1000.


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## ronparise (Apr 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Refer back to post #40 (on page 2) and the links therein with TUG posts commenting on the increased availability of units and large Presidential units in particular.
> 
> After the introduction of automatic upgrades, it was easy to win the lottery for a 3 or 4 bedroom Presidential room -- just go online and buy one ticket (book the reservation).





Rolltydr said:


> We have 5 presidential reservations right now that we will use, not rent, in the next few months. Only one was booked at 13 months and it was booked during the day, not at midnight. Oh, and that is a 4 bedroom presidential. I had never even seen one of those on my available list before. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence and Wyndham  making changes that make more units available to owners and fewer available to renters has nothing to do with it.




You miss my point. and you fail to understand every megarenter  is (or was) an owner, subject to the same rules as every owner

Wyndham did not increase the number of available units. (Presidential or otherwise) There are only a certain number of units available to reserve. Taking me and the other renters out of the picture did not magically create any new units to reserve. or decrease the number of owners that would like to reserve those units

So now instead of a someone like me getting to those reservations ahead of everyone else,  its you.  It doesnt matter to the rest of the owners that its you or someone like me that got those 4 presidential units.... they are no longer available


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## Rolltydr (Apr 30, 2022)

ronparise said:


> You miss my point. and you fail to understand every megarenter  is (or was) an owner, subject to the same rules as every owner
> 
> Wyndham did not increase the number of available units. (Presidential or otherwise) There are only a certain number of units available to reserve. Taking me and the other renters out of the picture did not magically create any new units to reserve. or decrease the number of owners that would like to reserve those units
> 
> So now instead of a someone like me getting to those reservations ahead of everyone else,  its you.  It doesnt matter to the rest of the owners that its you or someone like me that got those 4 presidential units.... they are no longer available


It’s dozens of owners getting to them, not just one who is renting them out to non-owners.


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## Mongoose (Apr 30, 2022)

For Wyndham owners who own other brands like HGVC, Hyatt, Marriott, HICV, Vistana, etc., how do you feel about Wyndham from a cost, quality and ownership standpoint?  I ask, because I love my Hyatt, HICV and HGVC, but love some of the Wyndham destinations.


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## Eric B (Apr 30, 2022)

WManning said:


> This sign would eliminate all of the sales people.



They could still have two...!


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## cbyrne1174 (Apr 30, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> For Wyndham owners who own other brands like HGVC, Hyatt, Marriott, HICV, Vistana, etc., how do you feel about Wyndham from a cost, quality and ownership standpoint?  I ask, because I love my Hyatt, HICV and HGVC, but love some of the Wyndham destinations.



About 75% of my ownership is Wyndham, 15% of it is Marriott and 10% of it is DVC. I own in that ratio because Wyndham has the biggest bang for your buck when you buy resale (which is the only type of ownship I care to have). Marriott and DVC are both more upscale than Wyndham, but the difference in quality doesn't justify the difference in price IMO. My Marriott and DVC ownership is mostly to add variety. I can also get Bay Club (where you own) on RCI pretty easily for about $1,000/week if I make the reservation a year in advance using Wyndham points. That's the only location I personally care to use in the HGVC inventory because of the Hilton hotel it's right next to. The rest of the HGVC locations have either an equivolant Marriott or Wyndham nearby, so I don't care to add it on.


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## comicbookman (Apr 30, 2022)

I I have gotten presidential suites many, many times over the last 10 years.  Both during and after the "mega renter" crackdown. Automatic upgrade, when they work, and restricting vip perks to de eloped perks have had the biggest effect on availability lasting longer.  Neither is really a rule change.  Taking away free guest certificates on my developer bought points, that didn't original need gift certificates at all, that's a big rule change that annoys me.


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## CO skier (May 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham did not increase the number of available units. (Presidential or otherwise) There are only a certain number of units available to reserve. Taking me and the other renters out of the picture did not magically create any new units to reserve. or decrease the number of owners that would like to reserve those units


What you are missing is that "availability" is more than just the number of units available; it is also about how long each of those units remain online in open inventory for owners to book.

When cancel/rebook was in play, the 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials, as an example, were snapped up at or near 13 months as part of the book/book/cancel/cancel/rebook/upgrade scam plan.  It really was a competitive lottery.

After automatic upgrades were introduced, the cancelled Presidentials did not predictably return to inventory to be rebooked at a 50% VIP discount for a 1 bedroom and then upgraded for large profits.  The largest points managers went out of business, and the no-longer-profitable-as-rentals 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials remained available, sometimes for months, to be booked by owners at full points to take their family on vacation.  Taking you, and some megarenters and some points managers out of the picture increased the amount of time that premium 3 and 4 bedroom Presidential and other units remained available online for owners to book; and they did to take their families on the vacations they paid for through their ownership, instead of seeing their vacations advertised for rent.

You really should read the linked TUG posts in post #40.  After the automatic upgrades were introduced, Presidential units that were not available before automatic upgrades, were magically available for any owner to book up to 3 months in advance instead of taking a lottery ticket 13 months in advance to reserve.


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## CO skier (May 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> You miss my point. and you fail to understand every megarenter  is (or was) an owner, subject to the same rules as every owner


Very few owner accounts were frozen, so your statement is patently untrue.


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## comicbookman (May 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Very few owner accounts were frozen, so your statement is patently untrue.


How does that make the quoted statement untrue?  We know, from tug reports, that some accounts that were frozen did not involve people who were renters, but were the result of Wyndhams bad bookkeeping.  The quoted statement is actually patently true.  Wyndham treated all users the same when it came to not enforcing rules.  It is the one thing they have been consistent about. You may disagree on how or whether the quoted fact is relevant, but it is your statement that is false.


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## paxsarah (May 1, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> It’s dozens of owners getting to them, not just one who is renting them out to non-owners.


For the most in-demand units, it’s dozens of owners all booking simultaneously at midnight, instead of one megarenter booking sequentially one after another. So again, it may help non-renting owners as a group, but it’s very hard to discern how it will help me personally or any other single owner in particular.


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Very few owner accounts were frozen, so your statement is patently untrue.



I miss your point as you seem to miss mine.  

All Im trying to say is that the megarenters were owners too


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## Rolltydr (May 1, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> For the most in-demand units, it’s dozens of owners all booking simultaneously at midnight, instead of one megarenter booking sequentially one after another. So again, it may help non-renting owners as a group, but it’s very hard to discern how it will help me personally or any other single owner in particular.


I am a single owner. I’m telling you that I have booked 5 presidentials in the last couple of weeks for trips that we will take this year and one next year. I didn’t have to stay up until midnight. I booked every one of them during the light of day with four of them being within 6 months of checkin. I did book a 4 bedroom presidential in the 13 month window but, again, it was during the day, not at midnight when the rooms were released. Granted, 5 is still a small sample size, but the units have not been available to me before in such supply and within a few short months of check-in. You can continue deny it’s helping single owners if you want but, at least for me, something has changed for the better.


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> For the most in-demand units, it’s dozens of owners all booking simultaneously at midnight, instead of one megarenter booking sequentially one after another. So again, it may help non-renting owners as a group, but it’s very hard to discern how it will help me personally or any other single owner in particular.



It was always many owners booking sequentially one after another

If I came online at midnight hoping to book ten of one hundred available rooms and 99 other owners came on line at the same time to book  one room. I would get one reservation and all of the other 99 would get their reservations too. When I went to book my second room there would be no more availability. The only way I could make the 10 reservations I wanted was if there were only 90 other owners that were after the reservations and were willing to be up at the opening bell.

Taking me out of the picture didnt make more units available. Since my 30 million points were no doubt resold to multiple new owners,  it made the supply demand ratio worse for folks that want the high demand reservations. Now instead of competing with just me for a mardi gras reservation there are potentially 100 or more new owners

A little off point, but the way to reduce the demand for a scarce asset is to raise the price.   But wyndham in their infinite wisdom chose to increase the demand.  It made no sense to me that the weekend before mardi gras required the same number of points as non event weekends. It is that fact that made what I did profitable. Sure cancel and rebook and upgrade made it more profitable but those things weren't critical to my "business"

Bottom line, if you are late dinner, the best hors d'oeuvres  will be gone


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## paxsarah (May 1, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Taking me out of the picture didnt make more units available. Since my 30 million points were no doubt resold to multiple new owners, it made the supply demand ratio worse for folks that want the high demand reservations. Now instead of competing with just me for a mardi gras reservation there are potentially 100 or more new owners


Exactly my point.


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I am a single owner. I’m telling you that I have booked 5 presidentials in the last couple of weeks for trips that we will take this year and one next year. I didn’t have to stay up until midnight. I booked every one of them during the light of day with four of them being within 6 months of checkin. I did book a 4 bedroom presidential in the 13 month window but, again, it was during the day, not at midnight when the rooms were released. Granted, 5 is still a small sample size, but the units have not been available to me before in such supply and within a few short months of check-in. You can continue deny it’s helping single owners if you want but, at least for me, something has changed for the better.



I dont deny that taking folks like me out of the equation made it easier for folks like you, but it didnt make for more availability. Its still the same number of available units 

It was that there just wasnt a super high demand for these reservations at the open that made it possible for folks like me to be able to make those reservations in the first few minutes of availability. Now its the same low demand at the opening that makes it possible for you to get those reservations in the first week. Its really no different now than it was then. There is a limited number of reservations and they are going to go to the guy that gets there first. That its you rather than me makes no difference to the guy that starts planning his Christmas vacation in November


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Exactly my point.


Im just saying its nice to find someone to agree with (and agrees with me)


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## Mongoose (May 1, 2022)

It is certainly frustrating when the week you want is gone minutes after the window opens, but that’s the risk with trust based programs.


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## Jan M. (May 1, 2022)

What some of you aren't taking into account is that not all the inventory is available at 13 months. I would attribute getting a good portion of those reservations as being in the right place at the right time when more inventory was released. 

Some owners always knew it was possible to find those larger units in high demand times if they kept looking. They didn't assume that they'd never find anything just because there was nothing when they looked at 13 or 10 months. 

Here's something to think about while you're going on about all the reservations you've gotten. There are dozens, a hundred or more owners who would loved to have gotten those reservations but missed out on getting them because you or someone else got them first.

If Wyndham is going to finally enforce the rules equally I have no problem whatsoever with that. Unfortunately that's not what's happened or is currently happening.

Just a quick look on eBay or the Wyndham Facebook group that welcomes rentals should be enough to tell even the most naive or stubborn of you that other owners have replaced the megarenters and owners who got the certified letters. Those 1, 2, 3 and 4 bedroom units, deluxe and presidentials for the dates on the priority lists are still being openly and widely rented. Not a day goes by that I don't see someone in that group or on TUG wanting to learn to rent and asking questions about how to go about it. New owners renting replaces the previous ones and the cycle will just keep repeating itself if nothing that will actually be effective is done


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## paxsarah (May 1, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> New owners renting replaces the previous ones and the cycle will just keep repeating itself if nothing that will actually be effective is done


There was one Facebook renter who stated (before he blocked me) that he was waiting to add guest certificates until the day of check-in to prevent cancellations and get around the owner priority limitations. So if Wyndham wants the priority dates to mean anything, they should look into that loophole.


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> It is certainly frustrating when the week you want is gone minutes after the window opens, but that’s the risk with trust based programs.



Wyndham is a rules based system, not a trust based system..


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## ronparise (May 1, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> New owners renting replaces the previous ones and the cycle will just keep repeating itself if nothing that will actually be effective is done



 i started renting just after wyndhams first crack down on renting, The advice I got was "Dont do it. With all the changes wyndham made,  you cant make it work."  I didnt know any better so I thought Id try. I started with modest goals , met them and kept going.

You may remember me saying, after I was asked to stop, that although it seemed impossible to me, others would see opportunities that I didnt, find ways  to work within the rules and renting would continue.

Seems I was right


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## CO skier (May 2, 2022)

ronparise said:


> You miss my point. and you fail to understand every megarenter  is (or was) an owner, subject to the same rules as every owner





CO skier said:


> Very few owner accounts were frozen, so your statement is patently untrue.





comicbookman said:


> How does that make the quoted statement untrue?


Was every owners' account frozen in 2016 while Wyndham sorted things out?  No.  Different rules applied to some owners, and some of those owners were megarenters.

Only a very few owner accounts were frozen; there was much speculation at the time as to what those special rules were leading to the frozen status.

Eventually after months, some owners' accounts were unfrozen, and the most egregious offenders were shown the exit door and banned from owning any Wyndham timeshares.


As an aside for anyone who follows other TUG timeshare forums or who is a member of other timeshare systems, are there any posts about erstwhile owners being banned from any particular timeshare system, or was this something unique to Club Wyndham?


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## HitchHiker71 (May 2, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> There was one Facebook renter who stated (before he blocked me) that he was waiting to add guest certificates until the day of check-in to prevent cancellations and get around the owner priority limitations. So if Wyndham wants the priority dates to mean anything, they should look into that loophole.



Wyndham is well aware - and there is a change coming that will prevent this from occurring - just a question of when.


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## comicbookman (May 2, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Was every owners' account frozen in 2016 while Wyndham sorted things out?  No.  Different rules applied to some owners, and some of those owners were megarenters.
> 
> Only a very few owner accounts were frozen; there was much speculation at the time as to what those special rules were leading to the frozen status.
> 
> ...





CO skier said:


> Was every owners' account frozen in 2016 while Wyndham sorted things out?  No.  Different rules applied to some owners, and some of those owners were megarenters.
> 
> Only a very few owner accounts were frozen; there was much speculation at the time as to what those special rules were leading to the frozen status.
> 
> ...


None off what you say makes the first statement Untrue.  It in no way follows that they applied different rules because only some people were suspended.  It just means not everyone "broke the rules" in their opinion.  In the end some that were suspended broke no rules.  Wyndham suspended anyone they "thought" broke the rules.  As to the 
'most egregious offenders were shown the door", that is pure speculation on your part.  You seem to have a loose definition of the difference between what is your opinion and what are actual facts.


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## Don40 (May 2, 2022)

One benefit of the cancel rebook era, was on day 59, 44, 29, you were guaranteed to find a room at any sold out resort destination. The cancelled rooms were floating around and being a sniper was a fun activity many presidential units, 3br, 2br were gotten, this made it interesting as to when you would cancel a desirable room to try and rebook. The key to the system is knowledge, many owners do not know what they have or how to use it, so the more educated owners will always have the upper hand.  Rooms are still being rented at a profit, and will always continue.  Ron is correct rooms in the French Quarter rent for good money during the parade and will always be difficult to obtain.
I will commend Fairfield, Wyndham, Travel and Leisure, in the fact that the company strives to find new TS locations that’s the true benefit of the system, and only way to keep the ownership numbers stable.


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