# Near drowning at Marriott Harbour Lakes



## LMD (May 19, 2013)

Not sure where to post this so please move to a more appropriate forum as you see fit.

Yesterday I witnessed a near drowning of a little boy at the Marriott Harbour Lakes Pirate pool. Fortunately some bystanders performed CPR and the boy began breathing before EMS arrived. It was chaotic to say the least. 
-I asked the staff member conducting the pool activities where the AED was, he said he didn't know. It was several minutes before a staff member actually brought one out. There is no sign out by the pool indicating the location of the AED. I later found out from the staff member who brought it out that it is LOCKED up in one of the offices. And I quote "so people don't use it incorrectly, like if they have seen it on TV". I also asked another staff member at the front desk of the location of the AED. She said she didn't know. I said "staff members aren't required to know the location". She said "I never go out there (by the pool)" (are you kidding me!!!)
-There is no house phone by the pool for emergencies. Guests using cells phones to call 911 were frantic because they were  being asked the address and they didn't know what it was. There is no sign indicating the address of the property in case of an emergency.

In an event of cardiac arrest time is of the essence. Adding signs telling people where the AED is located, having an house phone to alert staff of an emergency and  posting the address of the property so cell users can give 911 accurate information could potentially save lives.


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## Ann-Marie (May 19, 2013)

Wow.  Where is this resort located?  As a CPR instructor and nurse, that would blow my mind.  I would ask to speak to the manager of the resort.  If not satisfied, I think I would start with maybe the states health dept. and the governor's office.  I would think that they are not in compliance with the laws.


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## simpsontruckdriver (May 19, 2013)

Mariott Harbour Lakes
7102 Grand Horizons Blvd
Orlando, FL

Shows how much Mariott cares about their owners/renters!

TS


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## Janette (May 19, 2013)

Same problem at Frenchman's Cove in January only it was an adult in the ocean. They didn't have one at all. Folks on the beach worked on him until the medics arrived and he is ok. We couldn't  believe there wasn't one on property.


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## sparty (May 20, 2013)

LMD said:


> Not sure where to post this so please move to a more appropriate forum as you see fit.
> 
> Yesterday I witnessed a near drowning of a little boy at the Marriott Harbour Lakes Pirate pool. Fortunately some bystanders performed CPR and the boy began breathing before EMS arrived. It was chaotic to say the least.
> -I asked the staff member conducting the pool activities where the AED was, he said he didn't know. It was several minutes before a staff member actually brought one out. There is no sign out by the pool indicating the location of the AED. I later found out from the staff member who brought it out that it is LOCKED up in one of the offices. And I quote "so people don't use it incorrectly, like if they have seen it on TV". I also asked another staff member at the front desk of the location of the AED. She said she didn't know. I said "staff members aren't required to know the location". She said "I never go out there (by the pool)" (are you kidding me!!!)
> ...



Pool situations are unique due to the presence of water.  The rescuer can get shocked or the victim can get burnt due to water. So I can understand why they would want to lock these up to make sure special procedures are followed at the pool.

However I think there should be a sign indicating where an AED is and a phone with the address of the pool and instructions to call 911 in an emergency.


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## FractionalTraveler (May 20, 2013)

LMD said:


> Not sure where to post this so please move to a more appropriate forum as you see fit.
> 
> Yesterday I witnessed a near drowning of a little boy at the Marriott Harbour Lakes Pirate pool. Fortunately some bystanders performed CPR and the boy began breathing before EMS arrived. It was chaotic to say the least.
> -I asked the staff member conducting the pool activities where the AED was, he said he didn't know. It was several minutes before a staff member actually brought one out. There is no sign out by the pool indicating the location of the AED. I later found out from the staff member who brought it out that it is LOCKED up in one of the offices. And I quote "so people don't use it incorrectly, like if they have seen it on TV". I also asked another staff member at the front desk of the location of the AED. She said she didn't know. I said "staff members aren't required to know the location". She said "I never go out there (by the pool)" (are you kidding me!!!)
> ...



Just my input here.

Typically drowning victims have a lack of oxygen due to constricted airway.  That is why CPR is performed.

AED's are used for Ventricular Fibrillation (Heart electrical issue) which is slightly different.  Typically, a drowning victim will have a heart with no electrical activity, which does not require a shock to be delivered by an AED.  

The AED will sense this automatically and will not deliver a shock depending on the patience's impedance level.  The shock to a pediatric patient is in the range of 90-100J.  For an adult it is between 150-200J.

There is also the issue of the water.  In order to administer a proper electrical shock the patient and the surrounding areas need to be free of water making the use of AED's impractical and ineffective.  If CPR does not work by all means try the AED, it can't hurt since the shock is only delivered when the device deternines the patient is shockable.

FT


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## rickandcindy23 (May 20, 2013)

An unaccompanied 4-year-old girl almost drowned at Hono Koa in March.  The parents and grandparents were watching whales spouting from the deck in the front of the resort.  Suddenly, someone screamed that a little girl was floating face down on the water. Rick stood up on the lanai to see if it was indeed our pool, then dashed down the stairs, two flights, prepared to resuscitate, but someone else had her out and had her breathing.  

The child was blue, Rick said.  The mom and grandma were hysterical, as well they should be.  She was too young to be in the pool by herself.  That family was in the pool every day, all day.  It was scary.


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## SueDonJ (May 20, 2013)

I seem to remember that the last few resort maps we've seen have included little red AED icons to show where they're located on property - probably those maps were for Barony and/or SurfWatch.

Regardless of why they're used, I would hope that at the least every employee would know immediately when asked where they're located.  I don't know how they work or when they should be used - but it's not unreasonable to expect that employees should be routinely advised about the first aid protocols whatever they are, including which staff member(s) should be called on scene during an emergency situation during every shift.  If it's true that several employees at Harbour Lake don't know those things, I think that's a problem.  I also think it's a problem that there isn't at least one phone prominently displayed in the pool area.


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## K2Quick (May 20, 2013)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The child was blue, Rick said.  The mom and grandma were hysterical, as well they should be.  She was too young to be in the pool by herself.  That family was in the pool every day, all day.  It was scary.



That was my first thought.  I've scooped up toddlers struggling a couple of times in the past year (including one last week at Harbour Lake).  The root cause both times was inadequate parental supervision.


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## LMD (May 21, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Just my input here.
> 
> Typically drowning victims have a lack of oxygen due to constricted airway.  That is why CPR is performed.
> 
> ...



I am not sure where you got your information but it is sadly inaccurate. You can use an AED on any victim that does not have a pulse. Most have separate pads for use on children. If not, a burn is better then loss of life. You can use an AED on a drowning victim as long as you pat them dry and make sure they are not lying in water. I suggest you take an updated CPR course. Guidelines occasionally change and it is something everyone should know how to do.


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## FractionalTraveler (May 21, 2013)

LMD said:


> I am not sure where you got your information but it is sadly inaccurate. You can use an AED on any victim that does not have a pulse. Most have separate pads for use on children. If not, a burn is better then loss of life. You can use an AED on a drowning victim as long as you pat them dry and make sure they are not lying in water. I suggest you take an updated CPR course. Guidelines occasionally change and it is something everyone should know how to do.



I am a medical device electrical engineer who has designed and developed these products for all three top manufactureres.

You are correct in saying the device can be used but it may not deliver therapy to the patient based upon the measured impedance level.

The pads have little to do with the pateint as the device adjusts the delivered energy to the patient automatically from a range of 90-200J of energy. 

My information is from the clinical trials and product performance data used in demonstrating safety and effectiveness for FDA compliance.


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## simpsontruckdriver (May 21, 2013)

True on all accounts... an AED is for a person whose heart has stopped beating. CPR (chest-compression) is usually all that is needed for a drowning victim. An AED may help, but should not be the only first aid for a drowning victim.

What resorts need is a lifeguard, or someone who is certified CPR on staff.

TS


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## Old Hickory (May 21, 2013)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> True on all accounts... an AED is for a person whose heart has stopped beating. CPR (chest-compression) is usually all that is needed for a drowning victim. An AED may help, but should not be the only first aid for a drowning victim.
> 
> What resorts need is a lifeguard, or someone who is certified CPR on staff.
> 
> TS



No, what the resorts need are for us, the owners, to be more responsible adults.  We should all learn CPR and other life saving methods because we are the ones who are routinely around the water, the golf course, the tennis courts, etc.    

And parents, teach your kids to swim at a very early age.


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## Saintsfanfl (May 21, 2013)

Does Lakeshore Reserve have life guards as an insurance requirement due to the slides and "lazy river", or was it an option of the HOA and/or Marriott?


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## dioxide45 (May 21, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Does Lakeshore Reserve have life guards as an insurance requirement due to the slides and "lazy river", or was it an option of the HOA and/or Marriott?



I have only really seen the lifeguard at Lakeshore Reserve near the slide pool. I don't ever see them really monitoring the regular pool and lazy river. Most resorts post no lifeguards on duty swim at your own risk. I think there is far less liability and insurance requirements. As soon as a lifeguard is provided, there are risks involved which probably come with more insurance costs. Harbour Lake also has a large slide at the pool that doesn't have the pirate ship, but no active lifeguard that I am aware of. Though there is a slide attendant.


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## Saintsfanfl (May 21, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I have only really seen the lifeguard at Lakeshore Reserve near the slide pool. I don't ever see them really monitoring the regular pool and lazy river. Most resorts post no lifeguards on duty swim at your own risk. I think there is far less liability and insurance requirements. As soon as a lifeguard is provided, there are risks involved which probably come with more insurance costs. Harbour Lake also has a large slide at the pool that doesn't have the pirate ship, but no active lifeguard that I am aware of. Though there is a slide attendant.



Lakeshore's lifeguards are not on technical swim watch but there are two manning the slide, one in the chair at the base and another at the top, and a third lifeguard that walks around. If children are present without an adult, I have witnessed the wandering guard following the kids around. This appears to be a function of their certified training rather than resort policy. I was just curious as to why Lakeshore has them and other resorts do not, especially with Lakeshore having so few guests. I was thinking the HOA probably wanted them.

Even when the slide is closed a lifeguard remains in the chair at the slide until the entire pool area is closed.


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## californiagirl (May 21, 2013)

I am a nurse at a trauma center and am ACLS certified.  I have personally used a defibrillator in a code situation.  By definition an AED is a "defibrillator", meaning to stop ventricular fibrillation which is a fatal rhythm.  The person has to have a shockable rhythm.  If the person has no electrical activity at all, i.e. "flatline" there is no reason to shock.  It would do no good.  Having said that if an AED is available it is ALWAYS advised to attach the patches when someone is not breathing and has no pulse.  The machine will analyze if a shock is advised.  Some people misunderstand and think that because a shock was not advised, the AED malfunctioned.  It did not malfunction, it is that a shock would not help.

From the report by the original poster I'm shocked that 1. The AED was locked up and not immediately available and 2.  That staff was so uneducated, detached and disorganized.  We just returned from staying at Disney's Hilton Head Island Resort and I noticed that AEDs were in kiosks scattered throughout the property.  They were not locked up and available to whomever needed them.   No one was disturbing them either.  Marriott needs to change their policy and procedure.


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## UK Fan (May 22, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Lakeshore's lifeguards are not on technical swim watch but there are two manning the slide, one in the chair at the base and another at the top, and a third lifeguard that walks around. If children are present without an adult, I have witnessed the wandering guard following the kids around. This appears to be a function of their certified training rather than resort policy. I was just curious as to why Lakeshore has them and other resorts do not, especially with Lakeshore having so few guests. I was thinking the HOA probably wanted them.
> 
> Even when the slide is closed a lifeguard remains in the chair at the slide until the entire pool area is closed.



There are lifeguards at OceanWatch who stay near the slide area while it is open as well.


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## thomscots (Jul 15, 2013)

LMD said:


> Not sure where to post this so please move to a more appropriate forum as you see fit.
> 
> Yesterday I witnessed a near drowning of a little boy at the Marriott Harbour Lakes Pirate pool. Fortunately some bystanders performed CPR and the boy began breathing before EMS arrived. It was chaotic to say the least.
> 
> ...


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 15, 2013)

thomscots said:


> LMD said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure where to post this so please move to a more appropriate forum as you see fit.
> ...


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## sea (Aug 8, 2013)

We witnessed a near drowning of a boy at Harbour Lakes pirate pool during our March break holiday in 2005. The resort operated under a different name then....don't recall. At the time, one of the staff members who was serving ice cream in the children's indoor play area jumped over tables and raced to get to the scene. He certainly appeared to have first aid/CPR training.
The child survived. 
A resort that caters to small children should have a life guard on duty, even if it means increasing the maintenance fees, in my humble opinion.


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## RBERR1 (Aug 9, 2013)

I am just thinking of what I friend of mine who sits on a board of a condo building with a pool said about why they do not have lifeguards at their condo and wonder if the same thing applies.

If you have a lifeguard there and something happens, then the building/resort is more likely to be sued and lose in the event if something unfortunately happens vs. if there is no lifeguard and there is a sign that says effectively swim at your own risk.


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## jarta (Aug 9, 2013)

^^^  Unfortunately, there is a big difference in how liability applies to swimming pools administered by governmental bodies and swimming pools administered by private parties.

In most jurisdictions government has governmental immunity from suits for mere negligence.  So, government can place lifeguards at public pools and only be successfully sued when there is willful and wanton action/inaction that causes harm.

Mere negligence is enough for to sue for harm where the pool is under private administration.  

The increasing lack of life guards at private pools is an irony brought on by a litigation-happy society and bottom line oriented bean-counters.  Less protection of people is caused by less protection from suit if something that damages actually happens.

But, IMO, as a society we are not yet ready to trade the right to sue for mere negligence for the return of lifeguards.  Conclusion: you are pretty much on your own in protecting your kids.    Salty


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 9, 2013)

Clearly it could not just be one lifeguard. It would have to be the required number of lifeguards. Then the insurance cost associated with the liability. Insurance is much higher if it is not "swim at your own risk". Would anyone want to pay an additional fee for using the pool? Someone would be paying, either directly or indirectly. A business never pays because they are for profit and must pass the cost on to the customer.

I don't see it as any different than going out on the beach. Parents need to watch their kids and also think about taking first aid and CPR classes.


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## kwindham (Aug 9, 2013)

My personal thoughts are that I don't want to pay increased MF because some people don't watch their children properly.  I don't wish anyone to drown, but why can't parents wake up and realize that a swimming pool is not a toy or a "babysitter"?


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 9, 2013)

kwindham said:


> My personal thoughts are that I don't want to pay increased MF because some people don't watch their children properly.  I don't wish anyone to drown, but why can't parents wake up and realize that a swimming pool is not a toy or a "babysitter"?



Sometimes it is literally 10 seconds. It is hard not to ever look away for brief moments. Freak things happen but the liability should remain with the parents. I don't think I have ever been to a resort or hotel that had lifeguards for the full area per regulations.


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## sun starved Gayle (Aug 9, 2013)

I witnessed two near drownings by children at private pools with 30 plus people milling around. 

 The first was a five year old who was jumping off the diving board and lost her water wings. She was laying at the bottom of the pool, her mom was busy with two younger sibs and no one was watching her specifically.

The second was an eight year old boy who was in the shallow end of a pool with a bunch of buddies, they were trying to see who could hold their breath the longest. He passed out and I guess his friends just thought he was really good at holding his breath. They finally let some adults know he was not moving when they nudged him. He was blue. Two guys performed CPR on him and got him breathing again, they saved his life and were honored by the Red Cross.

 I was dealing with his Mother while all this was going on and it was horrible, it brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. She was hysterical and it took two of us to hold her up as her knees kept collapsing under her.

Both these kids are fine now. People assume someone is watching when there is that many people around the pool but the reality is there is not. 

When my girls were small I tied florescent ribbons in their hair so I could track them in the pool.


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