# At Owners update SVV now



## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

Just sat down and waiting patiently to be seen. iPad is open, to TUG. I will come back with updates and notes. This is going to be fun.


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Just sat down and waiting patiently to be seen. *iPad is open, to TUG*. I will come back with updates and notes. This is going to be fun.


You are cruel


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## Iggyearl (Jan 19, 2021)

Tell 'em everybody said "Hi."


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

Lie number 1. He’s already going to fact check me...... been 15 minutes and things are getting spicy.


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 19, 2021)

SVV is the WORST for updates.  Total vulchers.  Good luck!


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

Waiting on someone else. I wonder if making people wait a long time is a sales tactic. My god, let’s go, I need to tell them no and be on my way 

Apparently I got all of the information for the new program. I was given the inside scoop. LOL


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## dioxide45 (Jan 19, 2021)

Is your sales rep named Mike?


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Is your sales rep named Mike?


Yup


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## dioxide45 (Jan 19, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Mike the navy guy? Yes


That's the guy. Worst sales rep we have ever had. Tell him I never got the email from him with all the details on the changes to come in 2022. I am sure he just forgot.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> That's the guy. Worst sales rep we have ever had. Tell him I never got the email from him with all the details on the changes to come in 2022. I am sure he just forgot.


Ha did he tell you what they were? I’m waiting for someone to make sure I get my bonvoy points lol

I will be posting some highlights from the meeting. The best is when he said banked SO are restricted to be used at 6 Mo only hah. I mean come on, that’s just basic info


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## Ken555 (Jan 19, 2021)

At least you were entertained. Curious...did everyone wear masks? Did you meet in an office or outside?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

I’m still waiting one someone to close me out. This is ridiculous........ 

But here are the highlights. 

Please take what I’m writing with a grain of salt as it came from a sales rep. 

Marriott is no longer taking back VSE weeks ownerships for equity upgrade into new Flex ownerships. However, I’ve heard of people doing this recently. 

Beginning 1/2022 flex owners and DC owners will be able to book all brands using Destination Points. Flex owners and possibly Vistana owners who purchased from developer post 1999 (creation of SPG) will be able to convert Star Options into DP’s at SO/32. For example a SO amount of 81,000 would equate to 2,531 DP’s. MVC DC owners convert at 1:1. 1 vacation club point = 1 DP.  Also, the flex ownership won’t matter because you can convert to DP and book any brand at 13mo? I asked about inventory pools and couldn’t get an answer. 

If you own a Vistana resale week, you can retro the week into Star Options with a purchase of a flex ownership $10,000 will allow you to retro 1 week, $15,000 purchase will allow 2 retro weeks, $20K - 3 weeks etc. that hasn’t changed.

Vistana Signature Network isn’t going anywhere for existing VSN members but inventory may be limited as more people deed back their weeks or eligible VSN owners elect to convert to their SO to DP’s for cross brand reservations  

All converted SO to DP’s can book any brand at 13mo. 

It was unclear how Westin flex has priority at 12-8 mo when anyone With DP can book a Westin at 13 mo. When I asked I was told flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo. I then asked but why that would matter if anyone else can book a Westin at 13 mo with DP’s?

I asked about different inventory trusts and didn’t receive a straight answer. Apparently MVW bought all the unsold Vistana inventory and is using that for the DP program, but where is the flex inventory? And the inventory in the VSN? Was there ever unsold inventory in the VSN? 

Anyway, this was from a sales rep so take it for what it is.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> At least you were entertained. Curious...did everyone wear masks? Did you meet in an office or outside?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Masks worn, sat in a small office with him. He was behind flexiglass. The sales center is pretty big and empty.


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I’m still waiting one someone to close me out. This is ridiculous........
> 
> But here are the highlights.
> 
> ...


It is a very likely scenario but I am still not buying the scary tactic concerning the SO (resale or retail). I do not think they can create points from air. The number of SO converted to DC points by the Vistana owners will create the inventory that the Marriott owners will be able to book on Vistana. Since their value should be equal, there will be no additional demand in average on the Vistana resorts.


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## geist1223 (Jan 19, 2021)

Two years ago at Cabo Azul we were the last couple in the Waiting Room and our Salesman was 30 minutes late. He got hot when we questioned his tardiness and when we said 30 minutes of his time was gone. So we walked out. We then complained to the Sales Manager and to DRI. We got our gifts. I suggested they fire the arrogant P***k.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> It is a very likely scenario but I am still not buying the scary tactic concerning the SO (resale or retail). I do not think they can create points from air or exchanges from air. The number of SO converted to DC points by the Vistana owners will create the inventory that the Marriott owners will be able to book on Vistana. Since their value should be equal, there will be no additional demand in average on the Vistana resorts.


I told him I’d pay an enrollment fee similar to what MVW (apparently their new acronym) did when they rolled out the DC. IF the only way in was to hold an ownership that is bonvoy eligible (developer purchase) I’d consider selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands. Adding on to what I have is the last thing I want to do


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

CPNY said:


> *I told him I’d pay an enrollment fee similar to what MVW* *(apparently their new acronym) did when they rolled out the DC*. IF the only way in was to hold an ownership that is bonvoy eligible (developer purchase) I’d consider selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands. Adding on to what I have is the last thing I want to do



Well, not much commission for them if that happens.

By the way, if their story is absolutely true  (and we all know what the odds are), I still do not see a reason to rush to do anything now until the actual details are rolled out.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> Well, not much commission for them if that happens.
> 
> By the way, if their story is absolutely true  (and we all know what the odds are), I still do not see a reason to rush to do anything now until the actual details are rolled out.


Agree it’s not like the prices are going to change much


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## cubigbird (Jan 19, 2021)

I’ve been told Vistana will still upgrade Flex trusts - Aventuras, Westin & Sheraton Flex.  If you buy more they will “credit” / take back what Flex points contract you already have and re-issue a new contract to reflect the higher amount of points upgrade, keeping 1 (new) contract number vs multiple contracts of the same flex trust.


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## sail27bill (Jan 19, 2021)

If the Staroptions to DP conversion rate discussed turns out to be true (# of staroptions/32) that would be about right for my 81,000 SVV when comparing it to other Marriott Orlando weeks. For my summer 2 bedroom (non-lockoff) 81,000 Harborside--not a chance.  Marriott would have to offer a higher value of points for me to convert it to DPs. To me, the value is in using it or renting it, not converting to DPs since it is too expensive an ownership. I am sure that others will feel likewise.


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## dsmrp (Jan 19, 2021)

Hmm, what about banked SOs? Can they only be used in VSN, and can't convert to DC?  I'm sure many of us have banked SOs to burn for 2020 &  2021. 

I can see why MVW, wouldn't charge flex owners to convert. But sure hoping developer deeded weeks owners (I am one) will have little/no fee to convert, if we choose to play the DC game. 

I have 2 weeks with smaller SO amounts each year. So it would be either all VSN  or all DC each year. Not exchange effective to split weeks into 2 different exchange pools.


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## dsmrp (Jan 19, 2021)

What does new acronym MVW stand for?


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

I am curious how the leftover DC points will be treated. Say you convert SO to book a week on DC points then you cancel it and book only 6. Can you convert the leftovers back?


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

sail27bill said:


> If the Staroptions to DP conversion rate discussed turns out to be true (# of staroptions/32) that would be about right for my 81,000 SVV when comparing it to other Marriott Orlando weeks. For my summer 2 bedroom (non-lockoff) 81,000 Harborside--not a chance.  Marriott would have to offer a higher value of points for me to convert it to DPs. To me, the value is in using it or renting it, not converting to DPs since it is too expensive an ownership. I am sure that others will feel likewise.


I brought that up and it is what it is. It’s based off Star Options.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

dsmrp said:


> What does new acronym MVW stand for?


As I was told it was being rebranded as Marriott vacations worldwide MVW to reflect everything they own. The vacation clubs, exchange companies, home rental offerings, etc.


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I brought that up and it is what it is. It’s based off Star Options.


I always said it made the most sense to have a fixed conversion. For sure there will be loser and winners but they will try to use that for their advantage to convince people to "upgrade"


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## Eric B (Jan 19, 2021)

dsmrp said:


> What does new acronym MVW stand for?



Marriott Vacations Worldwide.





__





						Home - Marriott Vacations Worldwide
					

Cleaner, Safer Spaces When you and your family vacation with us, we want to help you stay healthy. Our elevated standards provide cleaner, safer spaces for our Owners, members, guests and associates. So you can focus on what matters most on vacation: time together. Because now, more than ever...




					www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> I always said it made the most sense to have a fixed conversion. For sure there will be loser and winners but they will try to use that for their advantage to convince people to "upgrade"


I love when they say “harborside at Atlantis is a coveted property”. I always responded with “well why the hell are people paying $2,000 in Mf’s for 44K star options”!?


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## MICROZE (Jan 19, 2021)

If the SO/32 ratio turns out to be true that would value my VSN-Units at much better value than my MVCI-Units.

*Westin Kierland Example*
E.g. 5 x 2BR-WKV PLAT+ Units accrue 148100-SO each which would equate to 4628-DCP/Unit.
Since the MF on the WKV-Units is $1670/Year that works out to *$0.3608 Cents/DCP*.

*Westin Lagunamar Example*
E.g. 3 x 2BR-WLR PLAT+ Units accrue 148100-SO each which would equate to 4628-DCP/Unit.
Since the MF on the WLR-Units is $1502/Year that works out to *$0.3245 Cents/DCP*.

*Marriott Ko'Olina Exampl*e
VSN works out to much better value than my MKO-2BR-IV MF of $2475/Year for 4025-DCP or *$0.6149 Cents/DCP*.

*DCP-Points Example*
VSN works out to much better value than my DCP-MF of *$0.61032 Cents/DCP*.


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## DannyTS (Jan 19, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> If the SO/32 ratio turns out to be true that would value my VSN-Units at much better value than my MVCI-Units.
> 
> *Westin Kierland Example*
> E.g. 5 x 2BR-WKV PLAT+ Units accrue 148100-SO each which would equate to 4628-DCP/Unit.
> ...


It is true but if I am not mistaken WLR and WKV are some of the cheapest MF per SO in VSN.


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## Seagila (Jan 19, 2021)

I do think, and admittedly wishful thinking on my part, that HRA will be assigned a different point structure in the new MVW program (I suppose they can also technically change HRA's SOs chart).  For all intents and purposes, HRA is essentially peak season all year round, except maybe between September through mid-December.  It's like Hawaii with respect to demand.  MVW also doesn't have any properties like HRA that has a big draw due to access to Atlantis.  I've picked up a few HRA weeks essentially being given away for free in the hopes that it will be invited and assigned very good value in the new program.  If not, they're good weeks to use or rent out.

As far as comparative value, it wouldn't be too surprising if the VSN to MVC conversion rate would slightly favor some VSN properties, if only because VSN tends to have two one-bedroom units to form a two-bedroom vs MVC's one-bedroom plus studio.   Just look at Westin Kierland and Marriott's Canyon Villas in Arizona; Westin Mission Hills or Desert Willow and Marriott's Desert Springs or Shadow Ridge; Westin Kaanapali vs Maui Ocean Club.

It's all speculation at this point and we won't really know what's true until the new program is announced.  But still fun to conjecture.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 19, 2021)

Word


MICROZE said:


> If the SO/32 ratio turns out to be true that would value my VSN-Units at much better value than my MVCI-Units.
> 
> *Westin Kierland Example*
> E.g. 5 x 2BR-WKV PLAT+ Units accrue 148100-SO each which would equate to 4628-DCP/Unit.
> ...


Word from post #12, that may be wishful thinking. Could just be flex owners and no conversion of SOs from weeks to DC points.

_*Beginning 1/2022 flex owners* and DC owners will be able to book all brands using Destination Points. Flex owners and possibly Vistana owners who purchased from developer post 1999 (creation of SPG) will be able to convert Star Options into DP’s at SO/32. _


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Word
> 
> Word from post #12, that may be wishful thinking. Could just be flex owners and no conversion of SOs from weeks to DC points.
> 
> _*Beginning 1/2022 flex owners* and DC owners will be able to book all brands using Destination Points. Flex owners and possibly Vistana owners who purchased from developer post 1999 (creation of SPG) will be able to convert Star Options into DP’s at SO/32. _


It could be, but he did say that if the week is a retro week, then that week would be able to be converted into DP’s as well. I would think that means that any ownership that has the capability to be converted to bonvoy points would be eligible to be converted into the common currency program.

 Also, you actually don’t elect to convert according to Mike. When you go to book the unit it just converts automatically. So you don’t need to “give up” your SO and convert prior to booking anything.


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## vistana101 (Jan 19, 2021)

Thanks for all the info! SVV sales presentations are usually a challenge, oy.

I don't know if I'm missing something, but if one of my SVV weeks, valued currently at 81k SO, would convert to 2,531 DPs, wouldn't that be a pretty poor value within the MVC system? That amount of points wouldn't even get me a week in a 2 bedroom at Grande Vista or Crystal Shores in peak season, or a week in a 2 bedroom poolside unit at Crystal Shores in off-season (July).


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## SGould (Jan 19, 2021)

It will be interesting how the VSE properties convert to DPs.  For example, the Westin’s on Maui/Princeville are the same SOs as Sheraton Kauai.  From what I can tell Marriott properties in Hawaii are not all considered equal with DPs like VSE.


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## CPNY (Jan 19, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> Thanks for all the info! SVV sales presentations are usually a challenge, oy.
> 
> I don't know if I'm missing something, but if one of my SVV weeks, valued currently at 81k SO, would convert to 2,531 DPs, wouldn't that be a pretty poor value within the MVC system? That amount of points wouldn't even get me a week in a 2 bedroom at Grande Vista or Crystal Shores in peak season, or a week in a 2 bedroom poolside unit at Crystal Shores in off-season (July).


Would you expect Marriott to give any VSE owners a decent valuation?


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 20, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Would you expect Marriott to give any VSE owners a decent valuation?



Marriott has to give VSE owners a decent valuation -- if they want to encourage them to participate in its new program.  Otherwise, they (we) will continue to do StarOption exchanges to maximize value.


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## jmhpsu93 (Jan 20, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> Thanks for all the info! SVV sales presentations are usually a challenge, oy.
> 
> I don't know if I'm missing something, but if one of my SVV weeks, valued currently at 81k SO, would convert to 2,531 DPs, wouldn't that be a pretty poor value within the MVC system? That amount of points wouldn't even get me a week in a 2 bedroom at Grande Vista or Crystal Shores in peak season, or a week in a 2 bedroom poolside unit at Crystal Shores in off-season (July).


The DC system has a much larger variance in how points are allocated.  Prime weeks in prime locations for a entire week (or even worse, just a weekend) are the absolute worst use of DC points.  Off season, especially Sun - Thurs reservations are great values.  In your example above, your SVV week at $1300 MF garnering 2,531 DC points is a good value at $0.51/point vs. the over $.60/point DC owners pay.  It's then how you use it that matters.  Extreme example is I can stay in Hilton head in Jan/Feb for a week at a non-beachfront for about $240 in MFs vs. a weekend at Ocean Pointe on Singer Island for $1200+ in MFs.  You have much less variance in values in Vistana.


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## CPNY (Jan 20, 2021)

jmhpsu93 said:


> The DC system has a much larger variance in how points are allocated.  Prime weeks in prime locations for a entire week (or even worse, just a weekend) are the absolute worst use of DC points.  Off season, especially Sun - Thurs reservations are great values.  In your example above, your SVV week at $1300 MF garnering 2,531 DC points is a good value at $0.51/point vs. the over $.60/point DC owners pay.  It's then how you use it that matters.  Extreme example is I can stay in Hilton head in Jan/Feb for a week at a non-beachfront for about $240 in MFs vs. a weekend at Ocean Pointe on Singer Island for $1200+ in MFs.  You have much less variance in values in Vistana.


This is why many vistana owners don’t want things touched.... we know how it can be mucked up


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 20, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> Thanks for all the info! SVV sales presentations are usually a challenge, oy. * I Agree!!*
> 
> I don't know if I'm missing something, but if one of my SVV weeks, valued currently at 81k SO, would convert to 2,531 DPs, wouldn't that be a pretty poor value within the MVC system? That amount of points wouldn't even get me a week in a 2 bedroom at Grande Vista or Crystal Shores in peak season, or a week in a 2 bedroom poolside unit at Crystal Shores in off-season (July).



During my update last March 3rd I was told that to do "anything" within the Marriott system 148,000 SO would be minimum.  Basically that my 81k  SVV SO wasn't going to cut it.  I took it as a salesperson tactic.  I told him I didn't believe much of what he was saying.  I wasn't nasty, just honest.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 20, 2021)

The big question is, was any of this in writing? Mike told us it was, but failed to produce the documentation when challenged.


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## CPNY (Jan 20, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> The big question is, was any of this in writing? Mike told us it was, but failed to produce the documentation when challenged.



Did you get a doodle? I did.... complete with circles and lines


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## dioxide45 (Jan 20, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Did you get a doodle? I did.... complete with circles and lines


No doodles for us. We were with Mike for perhaps, at most, 10 minutes. The rest of the 90 minutes I suspect he was on break.


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> No doodles for us. We were with Mike for perhaps, at most, 10 minutes. The rest of the 90 minutes I suspect he was on break.


He got up and left me a few times to check on somethings that I called him out on. After the allotted time, he walked me over to a seating area and said someone will be there to have me fill out a questionnaire and give me my points because mike did that, 45 min later I got up and everyone was gone. I called the concierge who checked me in and she was pissed, they are giving me extra bonvoy points. The only good thing it was 45 minutes I got to sit there and some work. He’s a poor excuse of a sales guy. The putz didn’t even know banked SO can be used at 8 months. He tells me they are automatically restricted.... unreal


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## dioxide45 (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> He got up and left me a few times to check on somethings that I called him out on. After the allotted time, he walked me over to a seating area and said someone will be there to have me fill out a questionnaire and give me my points because mike did that, 45 min later I got up and everyone was gone. I called the concierge who checked me in and she was pissed, they are giving me extra bonvoy points. The only good thing it was 45 minutes I got to sit there and some work. He’s a poor excuse of a sales guy. The putz didn’t even know banked SO can be used at 8 months. He tells me they are automatically restricted.... unreal


Yeah, he tried to tell me the same thing about banked StatOptions. I told him he was wrong. He told us he was one of their top sales people. Do you ever notice how all of them have some kind of award sitting on their desk? How is everyone a top sales person?


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## timeshare2150 (Jan 21, 2021)

I attended an owner update meeting at Sheraton Vistana last Monday.  I wanted to know when we were going to be able to trade into the Marriott resorts directly without going through II. I already own 125000 flex points but was told that I needed 162000.  Resale points do not qualify.  The sales rep showed me a new points chart that is good at ALL RESORTS, ALL SEASONS.  It is supposed to go into effect later this year.  The points chart is much simpler than the previous ones by resort by season.  For example a 3 BR is only 50,000 points. we decided to buy additional points and check with TUG members to see if anyone else has heard of this.  I reviewed the documents they gave me and found nothing about the new program.  I e-mailed my sales rep asking for a copy of the new points chart and he sent it to me. Any advice would be appreciated as the 10 day window to rescind is fast approaching.


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## GregT (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I’m still waiting one someone to close me out. This is ridiculous........
> 
> But here are the highlights.
> 
> ...


Chris,

Thank you for posting this -- if this becomes the roll-out, I don't think Starwood owners will be enticed to participate in the DC program.   The best properties (2BR OF at WKORV, for 176K SO's), would be worth about 5,500 DC Points.  That's not even enough to book a 2BR OF at Maui Ocean Club in the old building, let alone 2BR OV units on Oahu or Kauai.    This barely gets that owner to an OF unit in St. Thomas or Aruba.  It's not a sweet enough conversion rate.  I had speculated on a 27:1 conversion rate which might have been more interesting.  I would suspect that, if this is correct, that Marriott picked 32:1 because then those Starwood owners need to buy DC points to really utilize the Marriott system.  This is akin to the skimming that hit Marriott owners when the program was rolled out 10 years ago.

On the flip side, a unit that is 148K StarOptions now requires 4,600 Marriott points to book -- that seems like a good value for Cancun, Princeville and Harborside.   But limited inventory may make that irrelevant and more for marketing purposes than for anything else, especially if limited Starwood owners are enticed to play.

But Marriott is very smart, and I suspect they have found a path to allow them to have barely adequate inventory supply to meet initial needs and are confident that they have years to appeal to the new Starwood owners.   I think it would be a mistake however to only apply this to the direct owners of Starwood, because there are so many owners holding resale weeks that could benefit the combined system.   I would still expect that those owners can participate if they pay a sizeable enrollment fee ($3K?) -- and then those owners (who don't have StarOptions) are incentivized to buy Marriott points so they can get access to a point system.  We will see.

Thanks for reporting this!

Best,

Greg


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 21, 2021)

timeshare2150 said:


> I attended an owner update meeting at Sheraton Vistana last Monday.  I wanted to know when we were going to be able to trade into the Marriott resorts directly without going through II. I already own 125000 flex points but was told that I needed 162000.  Resale points do not qualify.  The sales rep showed me a new points chart that is good at ALL RESORTS, ALL SEASONS.  It is supposed to go into effect later this year.  The points chart is much simpler than the previous ones by resort by season.  For example a 3 BR is only 50,000 points. we decided to buy additional points and check with TUG members to see if anyone else has heard of this.  I reviewed the documents they gave me and found nothing about the new program.  I e-mailed my sales rep asking for a copy of the new points chart and he sent it to me. Any advice would be appreciated as the 10 day window to rescind is fast approaching.


Probably would need to know how much you spent on the 50k points.  I would be leery of buying now "because something will happen later this year."  The points should still be available to purchase at that time, instead of now.

Also, can you share the new points chart with us?


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## timeshare2150 (Jan 21, 2021)

here is what the chart looks  like


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## timeshare2150 (Jan 21, 2021)

Sorry. I hit send by accident.

VISTANA SIGNATURE NEWTORK ESCAPES OVERVIEW 
         STAR OPTIONS PER STAY
room size      3 nights   4 nights  7 nights
guest room     5400        7200       12600
1BR                 10800     14400       25200
2BR                 16200     21600       37800
3BR                 21600     28800       50400
Above StarOptions are consistent across all resorts, seasons and view types
no view types will be guaranteed at point of reservation for Vistana Signature Network Escapes stays

He also attached a listing of all the Marriott resorts plus Hyatt Residence Clubs in additon to the Vistana Villas per our request to confirm that these points apply to all brands owned by Marriott


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 21, 2021)

timeshare2150 said:


> Sorry. I hit send by accident.
> 
> VISTANA SIGNATURE NEWTORK ESCAPES OVERVIEW
> STAR OPTIONS PER STAY
> ...




Wow, so he's saying I can stay in a 2br in Hawaii or St John in high season for 37,800 SO???  I can't wait!!!   My 176, 700 2br week in St John is now worth 4 & half weeks?  I must be missing something...


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## Eric B (Jan 21, 2021)

That chart is the one for VSN Escapes that already exists if you look on the website.  It’s only good for limited resorts and limited availability booked within 60 days of check in. If you bought based on that, I would rescind.


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## Eric B (Jan 21, 2021)

VSN Escapes offer
					

Is this new? Westin lagunamar one bedroom premium being offered for 25K star options for 8/15 check in. I’m deciding between harborside (with Atlantis closed and explore nassau), exchange in II for Surf Club, Westin Lagunmar, or WSJ. Looking to travel in the next 2-3 weeks   Some insight on all...




					tugbbs.com
				




Here is a thread on that program when it was introduced.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 21, 2021)

timeshare2150 said:


> Sorry. I hit send by accident.
> 
> VISTANA SIGNATURE NEWTORK ESCAPES OVERVIEW
> STAR OPTIONS PER STAY
> ...



This doesn't pass the sniff test:

1.  All resorts?  Are they suggesting that an Orlando week = a Hawaii week?  Marriott currently charges radically different amounts for its resorts in these locations; why would it be different for Vistana resorts if they are acting rationally economically?

2.  All seasons?  A mud week at Vail = a ski week at Vail?

3.  No view guarantees?  Marriott has been successful in monetizing the differential between "island view" units and "oceanfront view" units.  Why would they leave money on the table with Vistana resorts?

Added:  I think Eric hit it on the head in the preceding two posts.  Your salesman likely lied to you by substituting one point chart for another.  Rescind.


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## Eric B (Jan 21, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> This doesn't pass the sniff test:
> 
> 1.  All resorts?  Are they suggesting that an Orlando week = a Hawaii week?  Marriott currently charges radically different amounts for its resorts in these locations; why would it be different for Vistana resorts if they are acting rationally economically?
> 
> ...



It’s not as advertised - it’s just last minute availability at some resorts.  See my post above.


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 21, 2021)

Eric B said:


> That chart is the one for VSN Escapes that already exists if you look on the website.  It’s only good for limited resorts and limited availability booked within 60 days of check in. If you bought based on that, I would rescind.




OK, that makes more sense.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 21, 2021)

Eric B said:


> It’s not as advertised - it’s just last minute availability at some resorts.  See my post above.



I agree.  It's last minute inventory during a pandemic.  It is not what we reserve at 13/12/8 months.


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## Eric B (Jan 21, 2021)

timeshare2150 said:


> I attended an owner update meeting at Sheraton Vistana last Monday.  I wanted to know when we were going to be able to trade into the Marriott resorts directly without going through II. I already own 125000 flex points but was told that I needed 162000.  Resale points do not qualify.  The sales rep showed me a new points chart that is good at ALL RESORTS, ALL SEASONS.  It is supposed to go into effect later this year.  The points chart is much simpler than the previous ones by resort by season.  For example a 3 BR is only 50,000 points. we decided to buy additional points and check with TUG members to see if anyone else has heard of this.  I reviewed the documents they gave me and found nothing about the new program.  I e-mailed my sales rep asking for a copy of the new points chart and he sent it to me. Any advice would be appreciated as the 10 day window to rescind is fast approaching.



BTW, the VSN Escapes program is currently available with resale points, too, and doesn’t have a minimum ownership requirement.  Log onto your account and go to the dashboard, then select the link for “VSN Escapes” and read all the details of it yourself.


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 21, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree.  It's last minute inventory during a pandemic.  It is not what we reserve at 13/12/8 months.


So, once again the salesperson was deliberately misleading the OP @timeshare2150   I would rescind your recent purchase, if for no other reason but to deny the commission to the salesperson for misleading you.


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, he tried to tell me the same thing about banked StatOptions. I told him he was wrong. He told us he was one of their top sales people. Do you ever notice how all of them have some kind of award sitting on their desk? How is everyone a top sales person?


I actually looked for his BS Award, that’s the first thing I looked for, however if you read closely it probably really says “AAA Gold member” LOL.... Sadly, I couldn’t find any on his shelf


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## Ken555 (Jan 21, 2021)

timeshare2150 said:


> I attended an owner update meeting at Sheraton Vistana last Monday.  I wanted to know when we were going to be able to trade into the Marriott resorts directly without going through II. I already own 125000 flex points but was told that I needed 162000.  Resale points do not qualify.  The sales rep showed me a new points chart that is good at ALL RESORTS, ALL SEASONS.  It is supposed to go into effect later this year.  The points chart is much simpler than the previous ones by resort by season.  For example a 3 BR is only 50,000 points. we decided to buy additional points and check with TUG members to see if anyone else has heard of this.  I reviewed the documents they gave me and found nothing about the new program.  I e-mailed my sales rep asking for a copy of the new points chart and he sent it to me. Any advice would be appreciated as the 10 day window to rescind is fast approaching.



Rescind today. You can always buy more later.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 21, 2021)

Our experience with VSN Escapes is that inventory is VERY limited. We can barely even find availability at SBP in Myrtle Beach. There is some Orlando availability as long as you are needing larger units. Nothing for the 1BR units at Vistana Villages. We did book some VSN Escapes last year in Orlando 1BR units, but those dried up quick even though the resorts are struggling to hit 50% occupancy.


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## vistana101 (Jan 24, 2021)

Another question I have..."select" level MVC owners receive Bonvoy Platinum membership. The only members who get that on the Vistana side are 5-star elite. Perhaps they will re-align and give 3 and 4-star elites Platinum membership, and 5-star titanium? Wishful thinking, I'm sure, but would be nice!


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## controller1 (Jan 25, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> Another question I have..."select" level MVC owners receive Bonvoy Platinum membership. The only members who get that on the Vistana side are 5-star elite. Perhaps they will re-align and give 3 and 4-star elites Platinum membership, and 5-star titanium? Wishful thinking, I'm sure, but would be nice!



In a September 2019 update I was told 5-Star elites would be upgraded to Marriott Bonvoy Titanium in February 2020. Not sure if it was just sales talk or if Covid changed the plan.


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## Louie38 (Jan 25, 2021)

controller1 said:


> In a September 2019 update I was told 5-Star elites would be upgraded to Marriott Bonvoy Titanium in February 2020. Not sure if it was just sales talk or if Covid changed the plan.



Yea I was told that by the end of the year that the following was going to happen but nothing 100% confirmed

3* elite - gold
4* elite - platinum 
5* elite - titanium


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## Negma (Jan 25, 2021)

FWIW. We are 5* and are Titanium for life. I am not sure how much of this was being 5* for 12 years or how much was business travel; or a combination. We were placed there after the great Marriot/ Starwood integration.


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## SandyPGravel (Jan 25, 2021)

Louie38 said:


> Yea I was told that by the end of the year that the following was going to happen but nothing 100% confirmed
> 
> 3* elite - gold
> 4* elite - platinum
> 5* elite - titanium


This is confusing bc I was already gold without being 3* elite. (Only 1 developers purchase)

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Jan 25, 2021)

I’m so over worrying about status at these hotel chains. I’m simply booking hotels and resorts where I want to go and where I can based on what I own. I don’t make any financial decisions based on if, maybe, possibly, or could. I’ve had great upgrades at hotels in the past, along with really bad upgrades (such as the “suite” which had a connecting door directly next to the bed, so that I was woken up whenever the tv was on in the next room, etc). 

Starwood and Marriott had decades to convince me to be loyal, and I was to a large degree...and then they devalued the program over and over. Combined with lying sales weasels at the resorts, I don’t know why any of us trust anything they say...as has been posted on TUG for decades, if it’s not written down it’s worse than meaningless because some will spend $$$ based on those verbal representations. 

I know many here want to hope for status improvements, but c’mon we know better. If it happens, great, if not, oh well, but until then why waste time on this nonsense?

FWIW, my expectations at any hotel are simple. I want a quiet, clean, and well appointed room. If it has a view, fantastic. If my status gets me a decent breakfast (one of the better Platinum perks, IMO) then great. That’s it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Jan 25, 2021)

Negma said:


> FWIW. We are 5* and are Titanium for life. I am not sure how much of this was being 5* for 12 years or how much was business travel; or a combination. We were placed there after the great Marriot/ Starwood integration.


It must be from a combination of stays and status. You can't get lifetime from either Marriott or Vistana ownership (though years at Platinum/Titanium are counted from earning that status from ownership). However, if you didn't actually have the nights stayed, if you sold your ownership, you would lose the status.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Jan 25, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> I’m so over worrying about status at these hotel chains. I’m simply booking hotels and resorts where I want to go and where I can based on what I own. I don’t make any financial decisions based on if, maybe, possibly, or could. I’ve had great upgrades at hotels in the past, along with really bad upgrades (such as the “suite” which had a connecting door directly next to the bed, so that I was woken up whenever the tv was on in the next room, etc).
> 
> Starwood and Marriott had decades to convince me to be loyal, and I was to a large degree...and then they devalued the program over and over. Combined with lying sales weasels at the resorts, I don’t know why any of us trust anything they say...as has been posted on TUG for decades, if it’s not written down it’s worse than meaningless because some will spend $$$ based on those verbal representations.
> 
> ...


easy to get status at hotels for  this yr and next. We will have it for Hyatt and Marriott these next 2 yrs due to incentives. Hyatt doubles stays for Jan and Feb plus 25% back on points . If you have status with Marriott they are giving you half the stays you need for the following yr. It will be fun to have status for a few yrs as we probably won't have this chance again


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## NiteMaire (Jan 25, 2021)

Negma said:


> FWIW. We are 5* and are Titanium for life. I am not sure how much of this was being 5* for 12 years or how much was business travel; or a combination. We were placed there after the great Marriot/ Starwood integration.





dioxide45 said:


> It must be from a combination of stays and status. You can't get lifetime from either Marriott or Vistana ownership (though years at Platinum/Titanium are counted from earning that status from ownership). However, if you didn't actually have the nights stayed, if you sold your ownership, you would lose the status.


As @dioxide45 alluded, elite status based on ownership should be referred to as "Gold/Platinum/Titanium for life of contract".  With the exception of those grandfathered in December 2018, there is no Lifetime Titanium (or Titanium for life).  
IIRC there were 3 ways to earn Lifetime Titanium if you achieved the following prior to the end of December 2018:
1. SPG members with 10 years Platinum and 750 nights.  It seems @Negma earned it this way. 
2. MR members with 750 nights + 2,000,000 points.  
3. After Marriott allowed members to combine MR and SPG accounts, members with 10 years Platinum and 750 nights.  

Non-Lifetime Titanium BonVoy members can still achieve Titanium Elite status, but it must be earned every year.


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## vvZODvv (Jan 26, 2021)

Is there any indication (probably not) what will happen to the mandatory resorts StarOptions after the integration?  Will they disappear? Be limited to current Vistana properties? Work with all MVC properties?

Or will they require to be enrolled/retro'd to be useful?


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## dioxide45 (Jan 26, 2021)

vvZODvv said:


> Is there any indication (probably not) what will happen to the mandatory resorts StarOptions after the integration?  Will they disappear? Be limited to current Vistana properties? Work with all MVC properties?
> 
> Or will they require to be enrolled/retro'd to be useful?


If we knew, we wouldn't have almost 75 posts of speculation...


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## CPNY (Jan 26, 2021)

vvZODvv said:


> Is there any indication (probably not) what will happen to the mandatory resorts StarOptions after the integration?  Will they disappear? Be limited to current Vistana properties? Work with all MVC properties?
> 
> Or will they require to be enrolled/retro'd to be useful?


I was told that it would def not be going away, since a sales rep told me it must be absolute fact.


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## Eric B (Jan 26, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I was told that it would def not be going away, since a sales rep told me it must be absolute fact.



... so the possibility that they go away would be alternative facts...?


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## vvZODvv (Jan 26, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> If we knew, we wouldn't have almost 75 posts of speculation...


Ah, I didn't realize all these posts were directly relevant to the mandatory property SOs.  As non-VSE owner, I don't know if the mandatory resorts had those SOs "hardcoded" in some way.  I'm considering a Westin (mandatory) property vs a Marriott and am concerned if the ability to convert to SOs disappears, it will reduce my perceived value of the Westin property.


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## CPNY (Jan 26, 2021)

vvZODvv said:


> Ah, I didn't realize all these posts were directly relevant to the mandatory property SOs.  As non-VSE owner, I don't know if the mandatory resorts had those SOs "hardcoded" in some way.  I'm considering a Westin (mandatory) property vs a Marriott and am concerned if the ability to convert to SOs disappears, it will reduce my perceived value of the Westin property.



The VSN probably won’t go away, but if there is a way for Marriott to reduce availability in the VSN and increase it in a new program to sell they absolutely would.


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## Lanabanana (Jan 28, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I told him I’d pay an enrollment fee similar to what MVW (apparently their new acronym) did when they rolled out the DC. IF the only way in was to hold an ownership that is bonvoy eligible (developer purchase) I’d consider selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands. Adding on to what I have is the last thing I want to do


Can you please clarify "selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands" How would you buy retro and whats the difference. We purchased resale last year of WORV and love it so far, but its not clear how we will be impacted by Merriott. I am also interested in getting another week but, not sure if i should wait or buy another resale now. I talked to a few sales (resale brokers) people and was told they are a lot more agressive with buy backs now.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 28, 2021)

Lanabanana said:


> Can you please clarify "selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands" How would you buy retro and whats the difference. We purchased resale last year of WORV and love it so far, but its not clear how we will be impacted by Merriott. I am also interested in getting another week but, not sure if i should wait or buy another resale now. I talked to a few sales (resale brokers) people and was told they are a lot more agressive with buy backs now.



"Retro" or "requalification" means paying Vistana a bunch of money to have your resale purchase be treated as a developer purchase.  It's a bit complicated (there are multiple threads about it here), expensive, and entirely unnecessary and a waste of money if you own WKORV.  WKORV is a mandatory property so resales already come with StarOptions and the conversion to Bonvoy points (the other major "benefit") is not cost/effective for this property.  "Buying to retro to maximize all brands" is pre-mature at this point; we don't know what the rules will be when/if Marriott and Vistana points are integrated (or even that they will be integrated for certain).

If you want more WKORV, no reason not to buy it now (resale, of course).  You would be buying to use, so changes in trading/exchanging rules are irrelevant to you (full disclosure: we own an OF week at WKORV and use that week each year; any changes will not affect our rights to use our deeded week).  But if you purchased only last year, I would rent an "extra" unit for a year or two to make sure it is what you really want.

I have also heard from a broker (Syed) that Marriott is currently very aggressive on ROFR buybacks at WKORV.


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## CPNY (Jan 28, 2021)

Lanabanana said:


> Can you please clarify "selling a resale week and buying to retro to maximize all brands" How would you buy retro and whats the difference. We purchased resale last year of WORV and love it so far, but its not clear how we will be impacted by Merriott. I am also interested in getting another week but, not sure if i should wait or buy another resale now. I talked to a few sales (resale brokers) people and was told they are a lot more agressive with buy backs now.


I was saying maybe I would sell one of the weeks I previously purchased on resale, then buy points to retro my other remaining weeks I purchased resale. That’s a big maybe, if that’s how I could use both VSN or DP’s in some future program


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## alexadeparis (Jan 28, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I was saying maybe I would sell one of the weeks I previously purchased on resale, then buy points to retro my other remaining weeks I purchased resale. That’s a big maybe, if that’s how I could use both VSN or DP’s in some future program


Yeah, personally I have units I am holding that I am ready to dump if this merger isn’t favorable to resale Vistana owners. I wouldn’t change my holdings right now unless it would be to ADD cheaply, and if I did, it would add another unit to my dump list. Once we see the details of the merger, we can all make the best choice for our individual usage. I also have a resale Marriott weeks unit to access Marriott but my usage is trending away from full weeks, so I would prefer to get the DP points product, but not enough to spend $30k to enroll my post 2010 week. If my resale Vistana ownerships dont  get me into DP points,  I will probably offload 2 of my Vistana units to lower my yearly MF.
My master plan, while we await a true answer as to how these systems will merge, is as follows. I believe that Marriott will treat all developer purchases as eligible for the DP merger/overlay/cooperative/whatever. Currently i have the equivalent of one annual 81000 so developer unit. If that is the only one that can correspond with Marriott DP, my plan is to use my resale Marriott FL club unit as a lockoff exchange in II so I can get my two Jan/Feb weeks in AZ, which I usually use my resale Vistana lock off for, and dump that Vistana lockoff. Then I can use my developer Vistana in DP. My WSJ is always a home week use, and my resale HRA I will either rent or use those staroptions for Hawaii or Mexico and to extend the WSJ stay. So even in what I feel would be the worst case scenario, there should be some access for me. If Marriott does go with the nuclear option, and decides, like some are being told in sales presentations that somehow only ”new” flex product owners will be able to access DP, then I will reduce my Vistana holdings by most likely dumping the 2 resale units I currently use for staroptions. I will then wait and see if they offer enrollment at some point down the line for my resale Marriott at a price point I would consider acceptable, either paying for straight up enrollment, or buying DP points, preferably without a large points purchase.


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## CPNY (Jan 29, 2021)

alexadeparis said:


> Yeah, personally I have units I am holding that I am ready to dump if this merger isn’t favorable to resale Vistana owners. I wouldn’t change my holdings right now unless it would be to ADD cheaply, and if I did, it would add another unit to my dump list. Once we see the details of the merger, we can all make the best choice for our individual usage. I also have a resale Marriott weeks unit to access Marriott but my usage is trending away from full weeks, so I would prefer to get the DP points product, but not enough to spend $30k to enroll my post 2010 week. If my resale Vistana ownerships dont  get me into DP points,  I will probably offload 2 of my Vistana units to lower my yearly MF.
> My master plan, while we await a true answer as to how these systems will merge, is as follows. I believe that Marriott will treat all developer purchases as eligible for the DP merger/overlay/cooperative/whatever. Currently i have the equivalent of one annual 81000 so developer unit. If that is the only one that can correspond with Marriott DP, my plan is to use my resale Marriott FL club unit as a lockoff exchange in II so I can get my two Jan/Feb weeks in AZ, which I usually use my resale Vistana lock off for, and dump that Vistana lockoff. Then I can use my developer Vistana in DP. My WSJ is always a home week use, and my resale HRA I will either rent or use those staroptions for Hawaii or Mexico and to extend the WSJ stay. So even in what I feel would be the worst case scenario, there should be some access for me. If Marriott does go with the nuclear option, and decides, like some are being told in sales presentations that somehow only ”new” flex product owners will be able to access DP, then I will reduce my Vistana holdings by most likely dumping the 2 resale units I currently use for staroptions. I will then wait and see if they offer enrollment at some point down the line for my resale Marriott at a price point I would consider acceptable, either paying for straight up enrollment, or buying DP points, preferably without a large points purchase.


I like they way you’re thinking. Personally, I’m ok with playing in the VSN. I spent nearly 20 years with a crap HRA developer purchase. I found TUG 20 years too late but I have learned so much that I feel I am making up for lost time with my new resale ownerships. I would pay a few grand to enroll but I really do not want to make any additional point purchases. 

I’d rather spend the money on a WKV 2 plat and just book WSJ, HRA, and WLR in the VSN than buy a flex plan or DC points. Throw in a few AC’s each year for 2-3 weeks in Orlando and I’m happy. I’m in Orlando again...... only person in the building. I requested this building since the elevator is out for refurbishment and no one is here. Peace and quiet for a week. I am loving it.


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## DanCali (Feb 2, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Beginning 1/2022 flex owners and DC owners will be able to book all brands using Destination Points. Flex owners and possibly Vistana owners who purchased from developer post 1999 (creation of SPG) will be able to convert Star Options into DP’s at SO/32. For example a SO amount of 81,000 would equate to 2,531 DP’s. MVC DC owners convert at 1:1. 1 vacation club point = 1 DP.  Also, the flex ownership won’t matter because you can convert to DP and book any brand at 13mo? I asked about inventory pools and couldn’t get an answer.



I got very similar information in December also at SVV. I was told it's be SO*0.032 which actually is very similar to SO/32.

That's not a particularly great exchange ratio for Vistana owners since 148,1000 would convert to about 4700 DP. If you're used to getting a 2BR in Hawaii for 148,000 SOs year-round then 4700DP may be close enough to get you that off-season but not in the summer. That said - the access to 50+ resorts for those not already in the MVC system would be awesome. We love the ability to go to Hawaii and USVI and combine our stays of 8-10 days at both Vistana and MVC resorts.


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## DanCali (Feb 2, 2021)

sail27bill said:


> If the Staroptions to DP conversion rate discussed turns out to be true (# of staroptions/32) that would be about right for my 81,000 SVV when comparing it to other Marriott Orlando weeks. For my summer 2 bedroom (non-lockoff) 81,000 Harborside--not a chance.  Marriott would have to offer a higher value of points for me to convert it to DPs. To me, the value is in using it or renting it, not converting to DPs since it is too expensive an ownership. I am sure that others will feel likewise.




I think many owners who are sophisticated enough to rent out their weeks will reach the same conclusion. Easiest way to see it is look at the rental value for SVN weeks vs. rental value per point for DC points.

My spring break 2BR WKV rented prior to COVID for about $4500 (I actually got multiple offers in this range this year too but only within the 60 day window after I already canceled). If that week converted to ~4700 DC points those have a rental value of ~$3000 (~$0.65 per point based on current rental prices give or take 5-10%). For your summer HRA week the math is even more extreme.

The situation is actually similar within Marriott as well. I can rent out my Platinum Newport Coast weeks for substantially more than the rental value of the points they convert to. the exception to that is the fixed 4th of July Plat Plus week where it's about a wash, but the points give more flexibility ion terms of renting out some and keeping some.


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## DanCali (Feb 2, 2021)

GregT said:


> On the flip side, a unit that is 148K StarOptions now requires 4,600 Marriott points to book -- that seems like a good value for Cancun, Princeville and Harborside.   But limited inventory may make that irrelevant and more for marketing purposes than for anything else, especially if limited Starwood owners are enticed to play.




Greg - that's now how Marriott thinks. If they allow you to convert 148,000 SOs to 4600 DC points that doesn't mean that resort will actually cost 4600 DC points to book.... It may be more like 5000 (similar to the existing "skim" they employ)


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## cubigbird (Feb 2, 2021)

It’s going to have to be equitable here.  If you are a weeks owner with 148,100 SO and get less than a week in DP conversion, there would be major lawsuits.  You can’t tell an owner that owns a week now all of a sudden you don’t a week at the same resort, same season.


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## CPNY (Feb 2, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> It’s going to have to be equitable here.  If you are a weeks owner with 148,100 SO and get less than a week in DP conversion, there would be major lawsuits.  You can’t tell an owner that owns a week now all of a sudden you don’t a week at the same resort, same season.


That would be slimy or is that considered the Marriott skim that everyone talks about? I guess then you can just continue to book your deeded week at your resort as you own it, nothing there would change. They can assign whatever points they want to when converting to another exchange like DC I assume.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 2, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> It’s going to have to be equitable here.  If you are a weeks owner with 148,100 SO and get less than a week in DP conversion, there would be major lawsuits.  You can’t tell an owner that owns a week now all of a sudden you don’t a week at the same resort, same season.


Marriott currently does this on their  weeks to DC points conversion. Your week may not be enough to book back into a full week in your owned season via DC points. Keep in mind, this would potentially just be an add on option. If you book your home resort, you book your home resort. If you want to still use StarOptions, you still use StarOptions. If you want to use StarOptions to go to Marriott properties, you realize there will be a cost incurred to do so. There were a few lawsuits (no class action) when Marriott rolled out their points program, some were settled, but we were not privy to the details. Marriott likely won't take away anything you can do now with your week or StarOptions. So you don't lose anything. It will likely be voluntary to sign up, for a fee of course.


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## cubigbird (Feb 2, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott currently does this on their  weeks to DC points conversion. Your week may not be enough to book back into a full week in your owned season via DC points. Keep in mind, this would potentially just be an add on option. If you book your home resort, you book your home resort. If you want to still use StarOptions, you still use StarOptions. If you want to use StarOptions to go to Marriott properties, you realize there will be a cost incurred to do so. There were a few lawsuits (no class action) when Marriott rolled out their points program, some were settled, but we were not privy to the details. Marriott likely won't take away anything you can do now with your week or StarOptions. So you don't lose anything. It will likely be voluntary to sign up, for a fee of course.



If it plays out this way, that would be optimal, understanding there’s a cost to flexibility & business.  If I’m a weeks owner, that can not be taken away.  That’s a contract.  Back to the old adage buy where you want to go.  The rest is gravy.


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## vacationtime1 (Feb 2, 2021)

A 32:1 SO/DP ratio would make our enrollment decision very easy.

If Marriott plans to offer us only 4700 DP's for our plat+ 2bd Kierland week (148100 SO's), we would never elect points for it.

If Marriott plans to offer us only 5525 DP's for our 2bd OF week at WKORV (176700 SO's), we would never elect points for it.  (It would cost us 7450 - 8650 DP's to stay at Marriott's most comparable unit -- the 2bd OF at the Lahaina/Napili villas depending on the season.)

If 32:1 actually becomes the conversion ratio (if the integration includes a conversion ratio), there would be no reason for me to enroll my Vistana weeks, even for free, because we would never accept the 33% skim this would entail; the DC annual dues would be wasting money.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 2, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> If it plays out this way, that would be optimal, understanding there’s a cost to flexibility & business.  If I’m a weeks owner, that can not be taken away.  That’s a contract.  Back to the old adage buy where you want to go.  The rest is gravy.


I agree with that. Your deeded week will never be lost. Being able to book floating weeks in your season from 12-8 month won't go away ad that is also part of deeded rights. The 8 month part is because of the club (VSN) A different club could override that. I don't think they will take away VSN exchanges. Of course, inventory could be diverted from VSN, but that is dependant on what other owners also do.. They could get rid of VSN as an add on option, but I doubt it since some will win and some will lose with an option to enroll in a new program (if enrollment is even offered.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 2, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> A 32:1 SO/DP ratio would make our enrollment decision very easy.
> 
> If Marriott plans to offer us only 4700 DP's for our plat+ 2bd Kierland week (148100 SO's), we would never elect points for it.
> 
> ...


We also don't know if Marriott will handle Vistana weeks differently than Flex or even if they offer anything at all. Flex ownership may convert at a 32:1 ratio, but weeks may not. Weeks may be assigned a value just like Marriott weeks are. That number will have more to do with seasonal demand for a destination rather than how many StarOptions a week gets. It would be odd for WKV to be offered 4,700 points when a similar week Platinum week at Canyon Villas only gets 2,950?


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## GregT (Feb 4, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> If 32:1 actually becomes the conversion ratio (if the integration includes a conversion ratio), there would be no reason for me to enroll my Vistana weeks, even for free, because we would never accept the 33% skim this would entail; the DC annual dues would be wasting money.


I understand completely your argument, but I would offer one reason to consider enrolling even if you never actually redeem your week for points.    It's very powerful to be able to rent points from other owners and then just book where you want to go.  If you have enrolled your Vistana week (and are paying the annual club dues) then you can go to vacationpointexchange.com and rent points from others.   I wish I could rent StarOptions because it would be great to supplement what I own. 

This was my logic when I originally enrolled -- to be able to rent points from others, but never actually redeem my 3BR weeks for points, because the skim was too great and it irritated me.   Just something to consider!

Best,

Greg


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## vacationtime1 (Feb 4, 2021)

GregT said:


> I understand completely your argument, but I would offer one reason to consider enrolling even if you never actually redeem your week for points.    It's very powerful to be able to rent points from other owners and then just book where you want to go.  If you have enrolled your Vistana week (and are paying the annual club dues) then you can go to vacationpointexchange.com and rent points from others.   I wish I could rent StarOptions because it would be great to supplement what I own.
> 
> This was my logic when I originally enrolled -- to be able to rent points from others, but never actually redeem my 3BR weeks for points, because the skim was too great and it irritated me.   Just something to consider!
> 
> ...



I know it is heresy to say this here -- but -- I don't believe that Marriott DC points are a good value proposition for Hawaii, at least compared to Vistana weeks or StarOptions; Hawaii weeks require too many DC points, which @ $0.64 is too many dollars.  I agree that renting points can a nice benefit and that five or twelve day reservations are more cost effective.

We had Executive status before we sold our three Marriott Hawaii VOI's.  We enrolled our weeks for free, paid dues for several years, rented points from others and sometimes rented points to others, and concluded that our Vistana weeks (e.g. WKORV-OF) provided a better Hawaii vacation for less money.  (I realize that's a minority view here.)  Given my experience, if Marriott offered a 32:1 enrollment ratio, it would add insult to injury.

That said, I agree with what @dioxide45 wrote in post #92 -- Marriott is more likely to assign point values to Vistana legacy weeks as it did with Marriott legacy weeks when it rolled out the DC in 2010.  That would allow the DC to "bid" on prime Vistana weeks by raising point values as necessary to populate the trust or to create exchange inventory.


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## DanCali (Feb 4, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> If 32:1 actually becomes the conversion ratio (if the integration includes a conversion ratio), there would be no reason for me to enroll my Vistana weeks, even for free, because we would never accept the 33% skim this would entail; the DC annual dues would be wasting money.



The Marriott "skim" people refer to is actually something a bit different and it's typically 6%-9%. It doesn't really have much to do with booking a comparable unit at a different resort but it has to do with the inability to book the same unit at the same resort if you convert to points.

Right now, in SVN you can use 148,100 options to book your WKV at 8 months out. This is technically an exchange because at 8 months out you are using Staroptions, not a home resort reservation (which has some implications if you change the name on the reservation and whether you pay a fee). You can do this because your unit is woth 148,100 options and it also costs 148,100 to book it. If this were in the Marriott system, you may get only 138,000 options if you converted your week to points so you can never book the same week in the same season at your own resort. "Points in" do not equal "points out".

In reality they make it a lot less transparent because the "seasons" from the week system are very different from the "seasons" in the points system, where they can literally have a different point value for each week of the year. But if you take the average points required to book a week in the season and compare to the points the week converts to, there is still a 6%-9% skim.

For example, my Newport Coast "Platinum" season runs from week 23-51 (excluding week 26). It converts to 3475 points. Using points, 7 weeks in that season can be booked using 4725 points, 7 weeks can be booked using 4225 points, and 14 weeks can be booked using 2900 points (and I may have moved a week from one bucket to another). If you average that out for those 28 weeks it averages to about 3700 points so therein lies the skim when compared to 3475. It's true that if I did want to book one of those 2900 points week in my own season, I am better off doing it with points because I can get 8 (almost 9) nights for 3475 points. But I could never book any of the other 14 weeks with points. And it doesn't balance out because, again, "points in" do not equal "points out".

It's much easier to see with my 4th of July fixed week because I get 5300 points when I convert to points, but it costs 5675 points to book that same week with points. That's about a 6.7% "skim". But given that I can use 5300 to book a 2BR in Hawaii in some places, that's a week I am more likely to convert regardless of the skim.



GregT said:


> I understand completely your argument, but I would offer one reason to consider enrolling even if you never actually redeem your week for points.    It's very powerful to be able to rent points from other owners and then just book where you want to go.



Greg makes a great point. We own 3 Marriott weeks at Newport Coast and I've been enrolled in the Marriott system for 5-6 years and have only converted a week to points twice. The first time was for 5 nights in a 2BR in Hawaii which I thought was a relatively fair exchange for my 7 nights in California (I may have been able to get 7 nights using Interval but that's more risky when compared to seeing availability and booking with points). The second time was converting my 4th of July week to rent out the points (despite the skim) because renting the points gets me about the same as renting the week. But most of the time I prefer to rent out my weeks and rent points from others as I need to use them - it's just more economical since the rental values of the weeks I own is relatively high. It's not quite the same as having your own points because rented points cannot be transferred or banked, so there is potential for waste. But if you are careful you can typically avoid that risk.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 4, 2021)

DanCali said:


> The Marriott "skim" people refer to is actually something a bit different and it's typically 6%-9%. It doesn't really have much to do with booking a comparable unit at a different resort but it has to do with the inability to book the same unit at the same resort if you convert to points.
> 
> Right now, in SVN you can use 148,100 options to book your WKV at 8 months out. This is technically an exchange because at 8 months out you are using Staroptions, not a home resort reservation (which has some implications if you change the name on the reservation and whether you pay a fee). You can do this because your unit is woth 148,100 options and it also costs 148,100 to book it. If this were in the Marriott system, you may get only 138,000 options if you converted your week to points so you can never book the same week in the same season at your own resort. "Points in" do not equal "points out".
> 
> ...


This is why I don't think they will use the 32:1 ratio on Vistana weeks in VSN. They will simply assign a DC point value to a Vistana week and also assign an amount of points to book each week. There will be a similar skim just like you mention, but you wouldn't usually use your allotment of points to book your week in your season. If you want to do that, just book your ownership week. If you want to go to other Vistana resorts, you would be best to compare the value of just using the StarOptions or using DC points instead. Many times using StarOptions will be the better value; WKV for WKORVN. But you may get a better value going to other places using DC points. The main purposes of electing DC points will be to cross over between systems. Just some more speculation...


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## GregT (Feb 4, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> I know it is heresy to say this here -- but -- I don't believe that Marriott DC points are a good value proposition for Hawaii, at least compared to Vistana weeks or StarOptions;



I completely agree with you -- it's too many points to travel to Hawaii and I'm very reluctant to book a weeks reservation using points for this reason.  I will go to great lengths to try to get Hawaii (II trade, StarOptions, HGVC) before I spend precious DC points on a Hawaii reservation.   I find them useful for the difficult to procure reservation, or to extend a week reservation secured with a different path.  One of my favorite tricks is to secure an II trade and then book DC points on the front for a day or two, which also allows my room assignment to be based on a Marriott owner, and not an exchanger.

But it is not for everybody.  I hadn't realized that you had already been enrolled and had decided it wasn't for you.  I do think they will leave StarOptions intact and that we will continue to be able to use them as before, and I hope the inventory isn't disrupted to make the experience that different.  There were alot of concerns about II trades drying up, but it still seems to be working satisfactorily 10 years later....

Best,

Greg


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## MICROZE (Feb 4, 2021)

Since enrolling [10 years] we have exclusively used our DC-Points for Ritz Carlton stays. However, there are only 5.

Have never converted our Deeded-Weeks to DCP points.
This is the first year we are contemplating converting our 2022-Deeded-Weeks to DCP-Points as we already have 10+ units unused [due to COVID] deposited with II and don't want to add more.


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## jmhpsu93 (Feb 4, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> This is why I don't think they will use the 32:1 ratio on Vistana weeks in VSN. They will simply assign a DC point value to a Vistana week and also assign an amount of points to book each week. There will be a similar skim just like you mention, but you wouldn't usually use your allotment of points to book your week in your season. If you want to do that, just book your ownership week. If you want to go to other Vistana resorts, you would be best to compare the value of just using the StarOptions or using DC points instead. Many times using StarOptions will be the better value; WKV for WKORVN. But you may get a better value going to other places using DC points. The main purposes of electing DC points will be to cross over between systems. Just some more speculation...


The DC point system is also more complex than the SO/Vistana system.  All of the Vistana properties have at most four tiers of points, with most two or three like legacy MVC weeks.  The MVC points system could have a dozen or more different ones for a location/week combination.


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## ocdb8r (Feb 4, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> We also don't know if Marriott will handle Vistana weeks differently than Flex or even if they offer anything at all. Flex ownership may convert at a 32:1 ratio, but weeks may not. Weeks may be assigned a value just like Marriott weeks are. That number will have more to do with seasonal demand for a destination rather than how many StarOptions a week gets. It would be odd for WKV to be offered 4,700 points when a similar week Platinum week at Canyon Villas only gets 2,950?



Totally agree that this makes logical sense...but the problem is the Flex trusts are based on underlying weeks that have been valued (from a StarOption perspective) at the same rate as weeks.  In other words, the total points in the trust (sold or available for sale) equals the total value of the weeks based on the same exact StarOption Chart.  If Marriott effectively values a Flex point differently than a weeks "point" there's a potential for a math problem when trading actually occurs.  There are two things that give Marriott some flexibility to make this work in any case: a) the Flex points "ratio" they use could work for the trust as a whole (e.g. the "points" ratio works out to the same overall "average" value of the underlying "weeks" in the trust) - this also get's tricky though as the trust is not static; b) "skim" gives them wiggle room where the math doesn't balance exactly.

The more I type this and think about it, the more I think this makes sense from a Marriott perspective.  You start by creating a DC point value for each week in the Vistana system, trying to create some measure of alignment with similar resorts in the DC point system (i.e. a WKV week doesn't get an absurdly different amount of DC points as a similar week at Canyon Villas).  For Flex points owners you then come up with a ratio based on the  "DC points value" of the underlying "weeks" in each trusts based on the values initially set above (meaning I wouldn't be surprised if Westin Flex ended up with a different ratio than Sheraton Flex and Aventuras yet another different ratio because of the different resorts in each trust).  You then gut check it all and "fiddle" the values anywhere that looks off or where there is a glaring issue.

Keep in mind, no weeks owners in the Marriott system are every "forced" to elect points; they continue to be able to book their home weeks or trade in II.  I suspect Vistana owners will maintain the same options we have today (home resort week, SVN trade or II/RCI).  I also don't think Marriott will actually want to "find a way to reduce availability in SVN" as they've paid handsomely to acquire us all (weeks and Flex points owners) as customers and gain nothing from alienating us.  They will build incentives into the system encourage owners of valued weeks to elect to trade into the DC Points system rather than playing any games.  Yes, that may mean that more "coveted" SVN trades get more difficult (Hawaii, Harborside, St. John, Ski Weeks) as owners of those weeks are likely to be the ones to get higher DC points values (and thus more likely to elect for DC points, opening up their week for DC Points owners to book).  

However, somehow it's all managed to work out thus far.  Owners at these resorts have never been incentivized to let their weeks slip into the SVN pool, yet many do year after year (how many posts are there about how it makes more sense to rent your Westin Kaanapali week out and use the proceeds to travel rather than trade it in SVN....yet many use StarOptions to get into Hawaii year after year).  Unlike Hyatt (which launched it's point system before being acquired by MVC), Marriott designed their point system to largely engage and encourage weeks owners to participate and they have seen the success because of it.  I don't think they'll change their tune this time around.


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## ocdb8r (Feb 4, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> I know it is heresy to say this here -- but -- I don't believe that Marriott DC points are a good value proposition for Hawaii, at least compared to Vistana weeks or StarOptions; Hawaii weeks require too many DC points, which @ $0.64 is too many dollars.  I agree that renting points can a nice benefit and that five or twelve day reservations are more cost effective.





GregT said:


> I completely agree with you -- it's too many points to travel to Hawaii and I'm very reluctant to book a weeks reservation using points for this reason.  I will go to great lengths to try to get Hawaii (II trade, StarOptions, HGVC) before I spend precious DC points on a Hawaii reservation.   I find them useful for the difficult to procure reservation, or to extend a week reservation secured with a different path.  One of my favorite tricks is to secure an II trade and then book DC points on the front for a day or two, which also allows my room assignment to be based on a Marriott owner, and not an exchanger.



...and this is a great exchange that illustrates it will likely all be "ok".  You've got two systems with wildly different incentives built in - DC points over values Hawaii weeks to a point that trading into Hawaii looks to make no sense and you've got SVN that (I would argue) undervalues Hawaii weeks to a point that it would seem to make no sense to use your Hawaii week to trade via SVN (and a developer purchased SDO 2 bedroom is valued the same as Hawaii).  YET both systems are full of thousands of owners happy as clams every year.

Yes, WE as tuggers are a rare breed, totally focused on maximizing our timeshare value and minimizing our costs.  How many of us have lounged at a pool and listened to people RAVING about the AMAZING value of the 50k they spent on a developer purchase (I can tell you I've got a bucket of tales from the WLR pool)?  There are thousands of owners out there who use their ownership just as their salesperson told them to.  They think nothing of trading their weeks to go somewhere new, get some hotel system points or go on a cruise regardless of the actual value.  A new system, means a new game to learn and new sweet spots for us to focus on....many of the old ones will remain.


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## DannyTS (Feb 4, 2021)

ocdb8r said:


> Totally agree that this makes logical sense...but the problem is the Flex trusts are based on underlying weeks that have been valued (from a StarOption perspective) at the same rate as weeks.  In other words, the total points in the trust (sold or available for sale) equals the total value of the weeks based on the same exact StarOption Chart.  If Marriott effectively values a Flex point differently than a weeks "point" there's a potential for a math problem when trading actually occurs.  There are two things that give Marriott some flexibility to make this work in any case: a) the Flex points "ratio" they use could work for the trust as a whole (e.g. the "points" ratio works out to the same overall "average" value of the underlying "weeks" in the trust) - this also get's tricky though as the trust is not static; b) "skim" gives them wiggle room where the math doesn't balance exactly.
> 
> The more I type this and think about it, the more I think this makes sense from a Marriott perspective.  You start by creating a DC point value for each week in the Vistana system, trying to create some measure of alignment with similar resorts in the DC point system (i.e. a WKV week doesn't get an absurdly different amount of DC points as a similar week at Canyon Villas).  For Flex points owners you then come up with a ratio based on the  "DC points value" of the underlying "weeks" in each trusts based on the values initially set above (meaning I wouldn't be surprised if Westin Flex ended up with a different ratio than Sheraton Flex and Aventuras yet another different ratio because of the different resorts in each trust).  You then gut check it all and "fiddle" the values anywhere that looks off or where there is a glaring issue.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%. I do not think MVC will focus on the most fair trade, unless it is totally in their advantage. There will always be pockets of value for us to speculate and they will also be used by the sales people to convince people to upgrade. In a "perfect" system, there is no need for anyone to change.

If owners do not deposit Hawaii, there won't be any Hawaii in the system but practice shows that people will always exchange even when the value is not always there.


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## Mowogo (Feb 8, 2021)

ocdb8r said:


> ...and this is a great exchange that illustrates it will likely all be "ok".  You've got two systems with wildly different incentives built in - DC points over values Hawaii weeks to a point that trading into Hawaii looks to make no sense and you've got SVN that (I would argue) undervalues Hawaii weeks to a point that it would seem to make no sense to use your Hawaii week to trade via SVN (and a developer purchased SDO 2 bedroom is valued the same as Hawaii).  YET both systems are full of thousands of owners happy as clams every year.
> 
> Yes, WE as tuggers are a rare breed, totally focused on maximizing our timeshare value and minimizing our costs.  How many of us have lounged at a pool and listened to people RAVING about the AMAZING value of the 50k they spent on a developer purchase (I can tell you I've got a bucket of tales from the WLR pool)?  There are thousands of owners out there who use their ownership just as their salesperson told them to.  They think nothing of trading their weeks to go somewhere new, get some hotel system points or go on a cruise regardless of the actual value.  A new system, means a new game to learn and new sweet spots for us to focus on....many of the old ones will remain.


There is an income level where even the inflated prices are actually a reasonable investment depending on what your desires are.  Yes when you look at pure financials a developer purchase may not be worth it, but the true test of a timeshare value is if you are happy with it.


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