# Owner's Update Reflections/Sheraton Flex Questions



## vistana101 (Mar 20, 2016)

We just got back from SVV and did the owner's update, so I figured I would share some of the information/rumors that were talked about. I also have some questions about using the Sheraton Flex program for owners.

Very little talk about the mergers, wasn't even brought up until I asked. The salesperson of course told us that nothing would change for us, but who knows. They did note a May 1st start date of the new company (as confirmed by recent news articles/press releases), and they also said they heard a rumor that ILG was looking into acquiring Marriott Vacation Club. Also gave hints regarding possible Westin Flex program.

The main push was to upgrade one of our weeks into the Flex program and possibly get to 4 star elite, and the salesperson repeatedly noted that the required staroptions for 4 star were going to increase very soon. 

Pricing for Flex program was $.347 per flex point, with "prices increasing soon." One of the main benefits of the program that they showcases was its enhanced ability to trade in II using the points system, which they said was much more valuable than the deeded weeks. This is what my question is about: have any flex owners used their points to trade in interval? How is the trading power and availability for elite resorts in prime seasons? If this points system is truly beneficial, it is something that may interest us as we could more easily trade into other resorts outside the network.


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## LisaRex (Mar 21, 2016)

vistana101 said:


> Pricing for Flex program was $.347 per flex point, with "prices increasing soon."



My response to that would be, "Why would I buy into a program that already is expecting a price increase?"


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## rog2867 (Apr 4, 2016)

LisaRex said:


> My response to that would be, "Why would I buy into a program that already is expecting a price increase?"



I just came from Sheraton Vistana Villages and got my owners update.  I transferred two of my properties into the flex.  Vistana villages (bought just for the point certs) and cancun ( easy to get into to).   I would like to know if anyone who has flex has any experience using II to exchange with the new flex points in high value areas like saint john.


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## DeniseM (Apr 4, 2016)

rog2867 said:


> I just came from Sheraton Vistana Villages and got my owners update.  I transferred two of my properties into the flex.  Vistana villages (bought just for the point certs) and cancun ( easy to get into to).   I would like to know if anyone who has flex has any experience using II to exchange with the new flex points in high value areas like saint john.



Having Flexoptions will not give you any advantage in II.  We have heard a lot of stories about the sales presentations for the FlexOption program, and they are very misleading.

You cannot use the Flexoptions in II, you have to deposit a week of ownership, just like everyone else.  You will get a generic credit for the "average" trading value of the resorts that you own.  ZERO advantage.

If you bought because they told you it would be easier to exchange with II, or with Starwood - they lied to you and you should rescind.


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## Scott & Laura (Apr 4, 2016)

In stirring the pot


Why would anyone sell a tangible asset for a simple changeable and subject to change point program


I will gladly allow you to give me your car and I will sell you points to use it once in a while and if you pay me $1000  I will give you 100,000 points

However I may may have to raise amount of points in the future to utilze the car


That in my mind is exactly what Sheraton Flex is doing---talking people into giving up tangible and real property for future promises.  I own the Brooklyn Bridge its for sale by the way


Scott


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## JudyS (Apr 6, 2016)

rog2867 said:


> I just came from Sheraton Vistana Villages and got my owners update.  I transferred two of my properties into the flex.  Vistana villages (bought just for the point certs) and cancun ( easy to get into to).   I would like to know if anyone who has flex has any experience using II to exchange with the new flex points in high value areas like saint john.


Rescind! Rescind! Rescind! The "Sheraton Flex Program" is mostly just a way to get owners to pay for their ownerships all over again. And, it sounds as if you already have StarOptions, so FlexOptions gives you little to no advantage. 

If you really decide you want the FlexOptions, you can buy them later. But it you let the rescission period pass and  aren't happy with your purchase, you are stuck.

There are situations where it may make sense to buy Starwood from the developer, if one can also "retro" a resale purchase and get developer benefits for it. This doesn't sound like one of those situations.


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## DTD1990 (Apr 6, 2016)

rog2867 said:


> I just came from Sheraton Vistana Villages and got my owners update.  I transferred two of my properties into the flex.  Vistana villages (bought just for the point certs) and cancun ( easy to get into to).   I would like to know if anyone who has flex has any experience using II to exchange with the new flex points in high value areas like saint john.



I don't believe Cancun (WLR) can be transferred to Sheraton FLEX.  It is not one of the FLEX resorts, nor is it a "Sheraton" and I have heard, but cannot confirm, that the Mexican property laws will not allow such a transfer.


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## ValleyGirl (Apr 6, 2016)

Yes you can trade Cancun for Flex Options but we had to bring 12K new money. - we did it in Jan


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## Rsauer3473 (Apr 6, 2016)

I think the person meant that a Cancun ownership was taken in trade. We did the same as we did not care for Cancun and would use Flex properties more.


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## Sv1plat52 (Apr 13, 2016)

I bought a resale and they are offering me about 20k to convert. So my out of pocket cost will be about 15k. The MF will be lower as well. Should I tale the deal? 

I wish I had had another resale.. 

I think the trust makes more sense. But it will be a more expensive entry point. You are going to need upwards of 148k points to reserve good weeks. But the MF should be lower as they are shared accross properties. In addition, it will be more difficult to compete against the 12 months when trying to trade into svn resorts.

I will be pulling the trigger unless you guys stop me.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 13, 2016)

The MF aren't necessarily lower.  They are shared across properties but also high and low seasons.  You may save money vs buying a week in low season that gets very few staroptions for a week but you will be paying more than a single week that get 98,000-148,000 staroptions with a single week's MF.


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## blondietink (Apr 13, 2016)

I also don't buy lower member fees, especially since the golf resort near the Coast  is in the trust
(Can't remember the name) due to weather/hurricaines/insurance.


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## canesfan (Apr 13, 2016)

It seems to be a common theme with the sales team of saying it's going to be hard to get 12 month reservations trading into the SVN resorts. The ones in the trust are not high demand resorts. You are not going to have access to them at 12 mos. You'll be making a SO ressie with everyone else for the high demand resorts. The only resorts that this theory hold true is for St John and Hawaii trust. But both those have mandatory resale options are viable options instead of paying developer prices. Personally, I'd like a deed to real estate versus points in a trust. I don't see much benefit to giving that deed up in lieu of points, and paying more money.


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## Helios (Apr 13, 2016)

canesfan said:


> It seems to be a common theme with the sales team of saying it's going to be hard to get 12 month reservations trading into the SVN resorts. The ones in the trust are not high demand resorts. You are not going to have access to them at 12 mos. You'll be making a SO ressie with everyone else for the high demand resorts. The only resorts that this theory hold true is for St John and Hawaii trust. But both those have mandatory resale options are viable options instead of paying developer prices. Personally, I'd like a deed to real estate versus points in a trust. I don't see much benefit to giving that deed up in lieu of points, and paying more money.



I would say HRA is in the same category as WSJ as far as being very hard to reserve (perhaps only during the prime season but WSJ can be reserved during hurricane season now that there almost 4 phases).  It also comes with SOs at resale.

I would also argue WRMV is basically impossible to reserve during the sky season and it does not provide SOs.

I am sure there are other resorts which have weeks that are hard to get, like spring training at WKV.


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## canesfan (Apr 13, 2016)

moto x said:


> I would say HRA is in the same category as WSJ as far as being very hard to reserve (perhaps only during the prime season but WSJ can be reserved during hurricane season now that there almost 4 phases).  It also comes with SOs at resale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





All not Sheraton trust weeks that won't be possible to reserve at 12 months to those buying into Home options. I'm not sure why the sales people are using this as a strategy and scare tactic.


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## Helios (Apr 13, 2016)

canesfan said:


> All not Sheraton trust weeks that won't be possible to reserve at 12 months to those buying into Home options. I'm not sure why the sales people are using this as a strategy and scare tactic.



Sorry, I'm not following. I was simply talking about your comment about WSJ and the Hawaii properties being hard to reserve at 12 months. They are not the only ones. 

Why? Because they have to lie to sell.


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## JudyS (Apr 14, 2016)

Sv1plat52 said:


> ...I will be pulling the trigger unless you guys stop me.


Stop! Stop! Stop!   There, did that help? 



tschwa2 said:


> The MF aren't necessarily lower.  They are shared across properties but also high and low seasons.  You may save money vs buying a week in low season that gets very few staroptions for a week but you will be paying more than a single week that get 98,000-148,000 staroptions with a single week's MF.


Exactly! I was going to say the same thing. 



blondietink said:


> I also don't buy lower member fees, especially since the golf resort near the Coast  is in the trust
> (Can't remember the name) due to weather/hurricaines/insurance.


Another good point! (Sheraton PGA is the name of the golf resort.) 

FlexPoints will probably be available cheaply on the resale market in a couple of years, if they aren't already. Until then, 15k will pay for a *lot* of rentals at the properties in the Sheraton Trust.


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## Scott&Laura (Apr 14, 2016)

I have read on numerous occasions where people think Starwood agents are liars


I disagree for two reasons

1)  They are merely reporting their personal understanding at the moment and are compensated for sales---They try therefore to be honest and get repeat customers but most often they do not know facts, misunderstand them or we as consumers misunderstand them---Read your agreement how many TUGG members actually read it before signing and how many investigated before signing  1-2%   ---Tugg seems to be ahead of curve and therefore from TUGG members has more timely info than person selling----Put yourself in their shoes where you rely on management telling you facts----How much dissatisfaction has been expressed on TUGG due to ones own failure to read information provided--90%

2) Starwood is a responsible company----if they weren't you would not have an ability to buy or rent a room or timeshare   STarwood vets and hires responsible people from general population and therefore they will have same % of bad employees as exists at any large company

You may think I am a Starwood employee but I am not   I was in business for years and am merely passing on my observations


Lying is an intentional act for self gain---Communicating something you believe to be true and accurate and discover afterwards was untrue is a different matter   It comes down to integrity of the heart   It is an individual and not corporate issue. Lying is intentional  being deceived and passing on your personal understanding is a different issue and is not lying   Tuggers need to learn difference

Scott


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## Helios (Apr 14, 2016)

Scott&Laura said:


> I have read on numerous occasions where people think Starwood agents are liars
> 
> 
> I disagree for two reasons
> ...



While I agree that lying is a strong word and not all TS sale agents lie...Are some of them off the hook because they are misinformed and they sell using faulty information?

Does not knowing the existence of a law allow you to break it...

I can say I have been lied to by TS agents.  Thankfully inconsequentially and it has just made me laugh.  But, not everything that has been said to me by them has been a lie.  

You can never generalize, but that seems to be one the most common themes of several posters...I love when I see "one size fits all" statements that are based on the particular situations of some posters...:ignore:


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## YYJMSP (Apr 15, 2016)

moto x said:


> While I agree that lying is a strong word and not all TS sale agents lie...Are some of them off the hook because they are misinformed and they sell using faulty information?
> 
> Does not knowing the existence of a law allow you to break it...
> 
> ...



Most of the SVO salespeople we've encountered in the last 11yrs fall in to the category of "we don't really know what we're selling" just from the fact that they don't own and use the product enough like the rest of us to know what they're reading from their sales script is great in theory, but it just doesn't work that way in reality.

They've been taught to stress certain talking points to make it more likely to close the sale.  When they try to embellish on their own, some of what comes out of their mouths is just plain unbelievable and ridiculous  (my favourite is still the Ten-Star Elite level you get if both you and your spouse both buy enough units to get to Five-Star each, who makes up this stuff?).  But the key is that the new buyers don't know any better, so they buy in to it.

What I find is that the "manager" who comes in after to seal the deal, or get you to buy something, is pretty much completely out of touch with reality.  They all say they own two or three intervals and it works exactly as advertised for them.  Yah, right...


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## Helios (Apr 15, 2016)

YYJMSP said:


> Most of the SVO salespeople we've encountered in the last 11yrs fall in to the category of "we don't really know what we're selling" just from the fact that they don't own and use the product enough like the rest of us to know what they're reading from their sales script is great in theory, but it just doesn't work that way in reality.
> 
> They've been taught to stress certain talking points to make it more likely to close the sale.  When they try to embellish on their own, some of what comes out of their mouths is just plain unbelievable and ridiculous  (my favourite is still the Ten-Star Elite level you get if both you and your spouse both buy enough units to get to Five-Star each, who makes up this stuff?).  But the key is that the new buyers don't know any better, so they buy in to it.
> 
> What I find is that the "manager" who comes in after to seal the deal, or get you to buy something, is pretty much completely out of touch with reality.  They all say they own two or three intervals and it works exactly as advertised for them.  Yah, right...



Nice, 10*ELITE.  I'll start the retitling immediately...:hysterical:

I see your point.  How about the sales agents and managers who claim they are also owners.  They should know the ins and outs of how the system works in reality.  So, we would have to assume they lie to some extent from time to time.


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## VacationForever (Apr 15, 2016)

Which reminds me - whatever happened to Westin5Star?  He has not been on TUG for more than a year.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 15, 2016)

Scott&Laura said:


> I have read on numerous occasions where people think Starwood agents are liars
> 
> I disagree...



Untrue - I have heard outright lies (not misinformation)... and called them on it. Yes, generally it is misinformation that comes from their mouths, but IMO misinformation is also lying...

jarta?

btw - my view is that no one should purchase w/o research (and do not mean 'research' from Sales), and often call people out on this bad decision. Amazing that with easy/quick access to perform internet searches that people still buy w/o researching.


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## ThreeLittleBirds (Apr 15, 2016)

Every time I read a flex options thread, I feel dumb as dirt. I don't know why I have such a hard time grasping the benefits or even how it works.


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## vistana101 (Apr 16, 2016)

When I had my owner's update, one of the biggest things my salesperson pushed was the great trading power the flex units had in II due to being in the points system. Has anyone actually exchanged using this, is it actually valuable?


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## DeniseM (Apr 16, 2016)

vistana101 said:


> When I had my owner's update, one of the biggest things my salesperson pushed was the great trading power the flex units had in II due to being in the points system. Has anyone actually exchanged using this, is it actually valuable?



[edited - see more info. about this below]

I have to say that Starwood has really turned up the baloney machine with Flexoptions.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 16, 2016)

Does baloney = lies or misinformation


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## JudyS (Apr 16, 2016)

ThreeLittleBirds said:


> ...I don't know why I have such a hard time grasping the benefits or even how it works.


I don't think there are much in benefits -- that's why they are hard to grasp. 

As for how it works, Sheraton has taken weeks at a bunch of resorts, put them into a trust, and sold shares in the trust. Trust owners can reserve at any of those resorts at 12 months out -- space available, of course!


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## tschwa2 (Apr 16, 2016)

or does flex options exchange more like points using a cross over grid? Most points programs use a grid that can be both a benefit or a liability.  A 1br 150 tdi  in a 3 rate Orlando resort costs the same number of points as a 1 br 150 tdi in a top tier Maui resort.  No wondering if you have enough trading power, if you have the points you have the power and your place in line is determined by when you put in the search.


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## DeniseM (Apr 16, 2016)

davidnrobin said:


> does baloney = lies or misinformation :d



yes!!!


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## Helios (Apr 16, 2016)

Only benefit I see is being able to reserve sky weeks at Steamboat 12 months out.  This is something that may not even work when you compete with all Flex owners and try to get a few units during sky season.

Anyone know what is the fixed/float sky weeks ratio at Steamboat (that are part of flex)?


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## DeniseM (Apr 16, 2016)

What do you mean by sky season?  I believe the high season is Plat Plus - I don't think Starwood uses other names for their seasons.

*Never mind, I just realized that you mean "ski" season.


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## Helios (Apr 16, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> What do you mean by sky season?  I believe the high season is Plat Plus - I don't think Starwood uses other names for their seasons.
> 
> *Never mind, I just realized that you mean "ski" season.



Correct, I blame iPhone autocorrect.


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## vistana101 (Apr 17, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> or does flex options exchange more like points using a cross over grid? Most points programs use a grid that can be both a benefit or a liability.  A 1br 150 tdi  in a 3 rate Orlando resort costs the same number of points as a 1 br 150 tdi in a top tier Maui resort.  No wondering if you have enough trading power, if you have the points you have the power and your place in line is determined by when you put in the search.



This is why I was debating purchasing a flex package...it seems like the II trade capability could be great. I know Hyatt uses a points system in II and their owners report great trades.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 17, 2016)

This is an older discussion about exchanging flex/home options in interval.
Since you pay MF based on the number of points you own (not an underlying week) it can be quite expensive to exchange enough home options for larger high demand weeks.  This is the same problem with Marriott Trust points vs points systems like Hyatt and legacy Marriott weeks where you can own a high point/low MF week.


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## DeniseM (Apr 18, 2016)

Here is the discussion mentioned above - I have also asked someone at Starwood for more info.:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230898&highlight=flex+options+II


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## lizap (Apr 18, 2016)

I've had great trades with my studio WKV side (e.g., 2 BR Marriott Ocean Pointe).




vistana101 said:


> This is why I was debating purchasing a flex package...it seems like the II trade capability could be great. I know Hyatt uses a points system in II and their owners report great trades.


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## lizap (Apr 18, 2016)

I agree. FOs allow you to book at several (relatively) less desirable (except Steamboat) resorts (mainly in FL.) at 12 months out.



JudyS said:


> I don't think there are much in benefits -- that's why they are hard to grasp.
> 
> As for how it works, Sheraton has taken weeks at a bunch of resorts, put them into a trust, and sold shares in the trust. Trust owners can reserve at any of those resorts at 12 months out -- space available, of course!


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 18, 2016)

lizap said:


> I've had great trades with my studio WKV side (e.g., 2 BR Marriott Ocean Pointe).



Studio WKV side?
You mean the 1Bd Deluxe (smaller) villa?
It is not a studio, and that matters in exchange value


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## lizap (Apr 18, 2016)

Yes, the small side.



DavidnRobin said:


> Studio WKV side?
> You mean the 1Bd Deluxe (smaller) villa?
> It is not a studio, and that matters in exchange value


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## Sv1plat52 (Apr 22, 2016)

I have decided against converting the week I currently have. Based on my research with the point system and also based on the interval point system exchange, the point system will cost a lot more to get the same trading power.

My strategy is that if they still the trade in weeks in the future, I will get several weeks for cheap and trade them in. I still need to check if they will allow me to trade more than one week in for the purchase.


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## Ziwang (May 2, 2016)

For what it's worth, at my owner's review two days ago I was told that if I went out and bought more weeks to trade in, beyond the one resale week I already own, that I would not be able to trade in the additional weeks.


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## Helios (May 2, 2016)

Ziwang said:


> For what it's worth, at my owner's review two days ago I was told that if I went out and bought more weeks to trade in, beyond the one resale week I already own, that I would not be able to trade in the additional weeks.



I seriously doubt this would be the case.


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## dioxide45 (May 2, 2016)

sptung said:


> Which reminds me - whatever happened to Westin5Star?  He has not been on TUG for more than a year.



Didn't he buy a vacation home in Roatan? Perhaps he sold off all of his Starwood VOIs?


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## ValleyGirl (May 2, 2016)

That's what he said he was doing


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## skyler (Nov 10, 2016)

*Upgrade or not?*

I currently own SBP Staroptions 67100 every other year. We only vacation there and never trade for another resort and probably don't see ourselves doing that. We are going to an owners meeting New Years week, where I am told we will be pushed to upgrade to Flex. We are told that if we don't, our local trading power will be greatly reduced resulting in possibilities of not being able to use our options since they would be only available to trade in with others who did not join Flex or bank with II and trade that way. Also they said my yearly fees will go up for not joining. So, here are my questions.

1) Should I upgrade knowing what I do currently with my options?
2) Is there much truth to the trading limitablity by not joining the new program?
3) By not joining will they raise fees to punish those who don't join?

I don't care about trading with Marriott or Hyatt. We just want to come to SBP every year or every other year depending on how we split up our options.

Thank you for you advice.


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## jabberwocky (Nov 10, 2016)

skyler said:


> I currently own SBP Staroptions 67100 every other year. We only vacation there and never trade for another resort and probably don't see ourselves doing that. We are going to an owners meeting New Years week, where I am told we will be pushed to upgrade to Flex. We are told that if we don't, our local trading power will be greatly reduced resulting in possibilities of not being able to use our options since they would be only available to trade in with others who did not join Flex or bank with II and trade that way. Also they said my yearly fees will go up for not joining. So, here are my questions.
> 
> 1) Should I upgrade knowing what I do currently with my options?
> 2) Is there much truth to the trading limitablity by not joining the new program?
> ...



I'm not familiar with the details of SBP, but my understanding being an owner at SVR is that for you the Staroptions don't matter since you only want to use your week at SBP and not trade within the Vistana system.  When you say that you split up your options are you booking a few days at a time or do you book a full week?

I don't see a benefit for you joining.  Flex would allow you to priority book at any of the Flex resorts at 8-12 months out (others such as the Westins would still be at 8 months) - you already have this feature at SBP with your ownership there.

I doubt that you would experience difficulties booking a unit unless an overwhelming number of owners trade into Flex - something that would take many years for existing owners.

The fees is a bogus argument.  Flex is much more expensive from what I've observed and they can't raise fees on non-flex owners.  All owners at a particular should pay the same amount in MF regardless of whether the unit is in Flex or not.  Everything I have seen is that Flex is more expensive.  

We were fed many of the same lines when we did an update at SVR earlier this year - only to find TUG and realize most of it was lies (i.e., the new Nanea is not part of Flex).  If you want entry to the Flex system I'd watch eBay - there have been a few auctions where Flex points have come up for next to nothing.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 10, 2016)

No reason for you to "upgrade".

You are able to get the reservations you want at present and that isn't going to change in any meaningful sense (this is entirely a scare tactic; reservations at SBP have never been difficult).

Your unit has zero value on the resale market (I recently gave away my two units there).  You have no "investment" to "protect".  

The "upgrade" will cost you thousands.  There is no usable benefit for you.  

If it's not broken, don't fix it.


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## skyler (Nov 10, 2016)

Thanks. Yes, we will use our options during off weeks so that we can get 2 weeks for the 67100 options we have. One each year. 

We bought when the property was Embassy Suites, then it sold to Vistana then to Sheraton. Years ago we were not part of SVN and were told that we HAD to join SVN or could no longer trade our deeded week at Sheraton. So, I reluctantly paid the $8000 to upgrade and join SVN. I did not want to make that mistake again and join Flex after being told that if we don't join we will find it hard to use our options unless we bank with II. 

We like to keep it simple and cheap. So as long as we can still bank Staroptions, split them and use them for multiple stays all at the same resort then I do not see the need to upgrade to Flex. Am I right?


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## jabberwocky (Nov 10, 2016)

skyler said:


> We like to keep it simple and cheap. So as long as we can still bank Staroptions, split them and use them for multiple stays all at the same resort then I do not see the need to upgrade to Flex. Am I right?



Correct - you're fine with what you have.  No need to pay 1000's more for what you already own.  Welcome to TUG!


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 10, 2016)

Do not throw good money after bad.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 10, 2016)

The Mf on 67,100 EOY flex options is likely higher than what you are paying now.  You are not going to have problems using regular old SO's for off season Myrtle Beach.


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