# Openly renting out an II exchange?



## Saintsfanfl (Aug 16, 2012)

Any chance this guy gets away with openly renting out an II exchange? I don't think he realizes that it is forbidden.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140825956518&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

People get away with it all the time - it just depends on whether someone reports it to II, and if someone at II cares enough to take action.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 16, 2012)

Does II Allow 'reimbursement' up to the exchange fee + Guest Certificate cost? 

In otherwords, if this only rents for $174+$39, is he still breaking the rules?


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Does II Allow 'reimbursement' up to the exchange fee + Guest Certificate cost?
> 
> In otherwords, if this only rents for $174+$39, is he still breaking the rules?



No - that is RCI's rule.  Technically, II does not permit you to get any reimbursement at all.  Of course, people quietly rent to friends and family who know the score all the time, but when you make a cottage industry of renting exchanges, you are likely to get busted.


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## siesta (Aug 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Does II Allow 'reimbursement' up to the exchange fee + Guest Certificate cost?
> 
> In otherwords, if this only rents for $174+$39, is he still breaking the rules?


 i just skimmed the rules and regulations from 2011 II buyers guide and it doesnt get specific. In fact it doesnt even mention renting, it says "Membership in II may be used for personal and noncommerical purposes" and then just describes penalties such as losing deposits and confs. and exchange fee. Thats it.

Now if you ask me, it implies that renting a deposit for a profit is against rules, but it doesnt imply anything about recouping fees for exchange and guest certificate, or even the MF for the deposit itself. But .. I wouldnt want to find out their clarification the hard way.


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

siesta said:


> i just skimmed the rules and regulations from 2011 II buyers guide and it doesnt get specific. In fact it doesnt even mention renting, it says "Membership in II may be used for personal and noncommerical purposes" and then just describes penalties such as losing deposits and confs. and exchange fee. Thats it.



This has been debated many times - here is the sticky with that info. - II does not permit trades to be rented, and they can be very harsh if they decide to go after you:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71138

Personally, I don't care if people rent exchanges or not, but if you advertise and make a business out of it, you will most likely get caught sooner or later, because people will report you to II.


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## siesta (Aug 16, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> II does not permit trades to be rented, and they can be very harsh if they decide to go after you:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71138


well it seems that sticky is speculation and not fact, as its not in writing in rules and regulations. Renting to recoup cost and not a profit is not necessarily a violation of "noncommercial" purposes. I happen to agree with your speculation as a possibility and especially as cautious advice, but you passing it off as pure fact I cant.


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## bshmerlie (Aug 16, 2012)

Why do they care if someone rents it out? They are an exchange company who got their exchange fee. Its our money or points that we are using to pay for it.  If someone has a week they cant use afterall and doesnt want to lose on the money that they already paid fot why not? I understand you can draw the line at someone making a business out of it.


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

You may believe that - but it doesn't change the terms and conditions that you agreed to when you joined II:



> 15. The Host Accommodations may be used only for personal and
> noncommercial purposes. *Members are expressly prohibited from
> exchanging or renting the Host Accommodations, including, but not
> limited to offering the Host Accommodations for sale or rent to third
> parties through the use of a Guest Certificate or otherwise. *



http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=60&p=legal

Why do they care?  The theory is that if renting exchanges was OK, there would be many people who would make a business of snatching up the best exchanges for rentals, which would leave fewer prime exchanges for your average owner/exchanger.


*I just added this post to the sticky


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 16, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> You may believe that - but it doesn't change the terms and conditions that you agreed to when you joined II:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=60&p=legal



I wish RCI was that cut and dry! There's quite a bit of 'Grey Area' with their TOS...And no, i don't take 'madges' word for it, i don't get why anyone would


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## rrlongwell (Aug 16, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> This has been debated many times - here is the sticky with that info. - II does not permit trades to be rented, and they can be very harsh if they decide to go after you:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71138
> 
> Personally, I don't care if people rent exchanges or not, but if you advertise and make a business out of it, you will most likely get caught sooner or later, because people will report you to II.



Clear as mud.  I would not try it.  If you do, make sure your personal liability policy limits are high enough to pay the price or your business liability policy, as might be the case.  Assuming they cover intentional violation damages, if not, oh well.

http://www.intervalworld.com/iimedia/pdf/iw/buyers-guide.pdf

"Membership in II may be used only for personal and noncommercial purposes. Any other use of membership benefits may result in the suspension or termination of a Member’s privileges, as well as any existing Confirmations and loss of fees associated with all II memberships and Confirmations held by such Member."  

"7. II Exchange Cancellation Policy — Other than Club Interval Points–Based Exchange Confirmations

(a) The only circumstances under which a Member using the Exchange Program may lose the use and occupancy of the Home Resort accommodations or relinquished points without being provided Host Accommodations are if a Member: (i) using the Deposit First method of exchange fails to submit a valid exchange request within the time periods specified; (ii) using the Deposit First method of exchange requests accommodations that are not available and fails to accept any alternate locations and/or time periods offered; (iii) cancels a Confirmation seven days or more prior to the first date of occupancy of the Host Accommodations being canceled and fails to request substitute accommodations in accordance with this Exchange Cancellation Policy; (iv) cancels a Confirmation less than seven days prior to the first date of occupancy of the Host Accommodations being canceled; (v) cancels or loses the use of a Confirmation, at any time, due to the threatened or actual damage or destruction of the Host Accommodations; (vi) cancels a Confirmation for substitute Host Accommodations that was previously issued to the Member under II’s Exchange Cancellation Policy; or (vii) where the use of the Home Resort accommodations by II is lost or impaired due to circumstances beyond II’s control."

"15. The Host Accommodations may be used only for personal and noncommercial purposes. Members are expressly prohibited from exchanging or renting the Host Accommodations, including, but not limited to offering the Host Accommodations for sale or rent to third parties through the use of a Guest Certificate or otherwise."


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I wish RCI was that cut and dry! There's quite a bit of 'Grey Area' with their TOS...And no, i don't take 'madges' word for it, i don't get why anyone would



Ride - Madge was RCI's official, sanctioned, representative on TUG.  She was authorized by RCI to answer TUG member's questions about RCI.  She didn't just show up and start posting - this was a formal arrangement between RCI and TUG.  Unless you are proposing that she went rogue and RCI did nothing to correct the info., then it's not logical to state that you won't take Madge's word for it...


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## Egret1986 (Aug 16, 2012)

*As DeniseM said, this has been debated many times*



DeniseM said:


> This has been debated many times - here is the sticky with that info. - II does not permit trades to be rented, and they can be very harsh if they decide to go after you:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71138
> 
> Personally, I don't care if people rent exchanges or not, but if you advertise and make a business out of it, you will most likely get caught sooner or later, because people will report you to II.



Why do they care if someone rents it out?



bshmerlie said:


> Why do they care if someone rents it out? They are an exchange company who got their exchange fee. Its our money or points that we are using to pay for it.  If someone has a week they cant use afterall and doesnt want to lose on the money that they already paid fot why not? I understand you can draw the line at someone making a business out of it.



As stated, it's been hotly debated previously and no doubt you will get answers (opinions) to your question.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 16, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Ride - Madge was RCI's official, sanctioned, representative on TUG.  She was authorized by RCI to answer TUG member's questions about RCI.  She didn't just show up and start posting - this was a formal arrangement between RCI and TUG.  Unless you are proposing that she went rogue and RCI did nothing to correct the info., then it's not logical to state that you won't take Madge's word for it...



Who told you that she was 'official', her?  IMO, she was a faceless name behind a computer....Did i ever tell you that all my posts are officially sanctioned by the World Health Organization?   I'll send you a memo, to confirm...Just let me type it up real quick!

IF she had any involvement with RCI at all, i would be it was more on the level of cleaning lady then 'officially sanctioned representative'...There is just no way that anything she EVER wrote was anything more then her opinion


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## DeniseM (Aug 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Who told you that she was 'official', her?  IMO, she was a faceless name behind a computer....Did i ever tell you that all my posts are officially sanctioned by the World Health Organization?   I'll send you a memo, to confirm...Just let me type it up real quick!
> 
> IF she had any involvement with RCI at all, i would be it was more on the level of cleaning lady then 'officially sanctioned representative'...There is just no way that anything she EVER wrote was anything more then her opinion



Ride - read what I wrote again - it is very clear, and I'm not going to argue with your silly post.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 16, 2012)

bshmerlie said:


> Why do they care if someone rents it out? They are an exchange company who got their exchange fee. Its our money or points that we are using to pay for it.  If someone has a week they cant use afterall and doesnt want to lose on the money that they already paid fot why not? I understand you can draw the line at someone making a business out of it.



They may not care with a one time case such as the eBay poster but openly allowing it would kill the exchange business. On the surface you would think II would make the same money since an exchange fee is an exchange fee. But in reality there would be a run on valuable exchanges by people who will rent them out. This would cause all the masses that pay the annual fee to be left with only scraps. The better getaway deals would also dry up. II's revenue on annual fees would plummet.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 16, 2012)

II is so much more responsive to complaints about the rental of exchanges.  

RCI-not so much.  I have reported RCI rentals of DVC exchanges and see no decrease at all.  

As a matter of fact, I currently see about ten familiar names on eBay with rentals of exchanges into Disney weeks, all full weeks, all have the $95 transportation/ concierge fee.  

I tried to turn them into eBay because they put that disclaimer as though they own the weeks they are renting, and nothing came of it.   

Ebay is too automated and no personal back and forth with any actual people.  Maybe they should hire some of the people looking for work currently to answer emails and ask, "What is the reason you are saying this person doesn't own this weeks they are renting?"


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Who told you that she was 'official', her?  IMO, she was a faceless name behind a computer....Did i ever tell you that all my posts are officially sanctioned by the World Health Organization?   I'll send you a memo, to confirm...Just let me type it up real quick!
> 
> IF she had any involvement with RCI at all, i would be it was more on the level of cleaning lady then 'officially sanctioned representative'...There is just no way that anything she EVER wrote was anything more then her opinion



Because "this was a formal arrangement between RCI and TUG". 

A formal agreement seems to legitimize her being an "official" representative.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 16, 2012)

rickandcindy23 said:


> II is so much more responsive to complaints about the rental of exchanges.
> 
> RCI-not so much.  I have reported RCI rentals of DVC exchanges and see no decrease at all.
> 
> ...



eBay cares greatly if something affects their fees so it is a matter of them not caring rather than being automated. If you flag a post as being an offer for additional money outside of eBay they will react immediately. I flagged a post one time on timeshare rentals where the buy was only $1 with the details boldly stating that you contact them for the actual prices. It was changed in less than 10 minutes of me flagging it.


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## bshmerlie (Aug 16, 2012)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Because "this was a formal arrangement between RCI and TUG".
> 
> A formal agreement seems to legitimize her being an "official" representative.



This would be called a "tangent". ...back to the thread.


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## rrlongwell (Aug 16, 2012)

bshmerlie said:


> This would be called a "tangent". ...back to the thread.



Unless it is an interesting tangent, than Tally Ho.


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## gwenco (Aug 16, 2012)

*SO?*

I really don't see what the big deal is. We pay big money in "fees" to belong to either one of the large exchange companies so if we wish to rent it to recoup money, why not? We traders usually have to book more than a few months or even years out in order to obtain a decent trade and s++t happens in life to where we sometime can't make the exchange.
 I doubt if anyone makes a killing off of renting something we've paid maintenance fees, exchange fees and then a guest certificate for


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## gandalf252002 (Aug 16, 2012)

*My thoughts and a question*

I have ready many a thread on this subject and here are some limited thoughts on the subject.

I do not like the idea of people scooping up all the good stuff, and then renting it out at for a profit.  However, also do not see a problem with recouping my costs by letting somebody else take advantage of it when I cannot utilize all my weeks.  I could easily go either way.

So here is my question, and I am very interested in people's thoughts on this logic.  I have a 2 bedroom unit that I can deposit to II and have not yet made an exchange.  What prevents me from advertising a 2 bedroom unit "anywhere" and calling the cost a "search fee" or "finder’s fee"?

As an example, my MF's on said 2 bedroom unit are $600 annually.  I put an advertisement saying let me find a unit for you, when and where you want for a cost of $850 inclusive.  You only pay me IF I find something suitable for you.  If / when a unit becomes available, if I book the unit, pay the exchange fee, and get the guest certificate I am not renting the unit.  My client would be paying me a search fee no different than the exchange fee we pay to the exchange companies.  I am not being compensated for my unit, but for my time and effort to find accommodations for the client, no different than a broker or any other travel agent.

Anyone here who uses eBay may understand this reasoning as it is very similar to selling coupons, which you are not allowed to do under eBay rules.  However if you clearly identify that you are not selling coupons and that people are bidding on your time and effort to find and collect them there are no issues.

My thought is that we have to keep in mind the basics, and that is that II / and RCI do not OWN these units they are telling people they cannot rent, they are only an exchange company.  So I am not exactly clear as to where they can say what we do with an exchange once it has been made.

I am not that familiar with exchanges, other than my course work but can anyone tell me any other type of exchange service where the exchange company gets to make the rules and not the buyers or sellers?

If there are any lawyers here it would be beneficial if we could get your thoughts on the legalities of their policies and if they are in fact enforceable.


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## Quadmaniac (Aug 16, 2012)

gandalf252002 said:


> I have ready many a thread on this subject and here are some limited thoughts on the subject.
> 
> I do not like the idea of people scooping up all the good stuff, and then renting it out at for a profit.  However, also do not see a problem with recouping my costs by letting somebody else take advantage of it when I cannot utilize all my weeks.  I could easily go either way.
> 
> ...



Even if you call it a finders fee, you are using the exchange to as part of the package and using it as a "commercial activity" and making a profit from it so probably would not go over well.

I think it is very similar to items sold which state that they are not for export to foreign countries for example that they are sold with this understanding. Technically I think you are making a contract to use their services and if you are using them, you agree to the terms. It is a bit of a crazy rule but I can see why they have it like that.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 16, 2012)

The only thing that bothers me is the blatant continual rentals of exchanges by certain people.  These people don't own what they are renting, and they aren't just getting rid of an exchange they cannot use.  

Change of plans is one thing, and it's really quite innocent for most people.  Making a business out of renting 20+ exchanges per year is another.   

Vacationbooker on eBay is taking weeks others would love to have and renting them on eBay for a huge profit.  At least 20 DVC so far this year.....I know because I watch.


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## ronparise (Aug 16, 2012)

Saintsfanfl said:


> They may not care with a one time case such as the eBay poster but openly allowing it would kill the exchange business. On the surface you would think II would make the same money since an exchange fee is an exchange fee. But in reality there would be a run on valuable exchanges by people who will rent them out. This would cause all the masses that pay the annual fee to be left with only scraps. The better getaway deals would also dry up. II's revenue on annual fees would plummet.



I rent, so I tend to see this from a renters perspective, but I really dont understand this argument....There is already a run on good weeks. Most folks that want Orlando at Christmas, or Daytona for Bike Week, or New Orleans for Jazz Fest etc, etc. wont get them. and they dont show up in RCI anyway. There are only so many of these prime weeks, and it dosent make any difference whether or not somebody gets these weeks for themselves, or for their mother, or to rent...most of us wont get them.. 

For me the only things that I deposit to RCI is the stuff I dont use and cant rent..the very definition of scrap. and yet RCI seems to be doing ok


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## ronparise (Aug 16, 2012)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The only thing that bothers me is the blatant continual rentals of exchanges by certain people.  These people don't own what they are renting, and they aren't just getting rid of an exchange they cannot use.
> 
> Change of plans is one thing, and it's really quite innocent for most people.  Making a business out of renting 20+ exchanges per year is another.
> 
> Vacationbooker on eBay is taking weeks others would love to have and renting them on eBay for a huge profit.  At least 20 DVC so far this year.....I know because I watch.



You can hardly make a business out of 20 rentals....Ive done like 70 so far this year, and I dont see it as much more than a hobby. I have made enough money to finance my own vacations...but thats not much of a business.

How did this Vacation broker get those weeks?  Dont all the members have an equal shot at getting them. Clearly no one else wanted them, or at least wasnt willing to do the work to get them.

You seem upset that a broker got a week that you would have liked, Im upset that you get a week that I wanted..tough luck for both of us...Whats the difference?


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## Egret1986 (Aug 16, 2012)

*It's simply a timeshare exchange company rule; nothing more, nothing less*



ronparise said:


> You can hardly make a business out of 20 rentals....Ive done like 70 so far this year, and I dont see it as much more than a hobby. I have made enough money to finance my own vacations...but thats not much of a business.
> 
> How did this Vacation broker get those weeks?  Dont all the members have an equal shot at getting them. Clearly no one else wanted them, or at least wasnt willing to do the work to get them.
> 
> You seem upset that a broker got a week that you would have liked, Im upset that you get a week that I wanted..tough luck for both of us...Whats the difference?



I agree with your whole post.  I also rent and resell; but like you, it's just a profitable hobby.  I believe we all have the same shot at the exchange company inventory.  Some work the system harder than others do and are, thus, rewarded by getting those great exchanges.

I don't see the difference either, but I've seen this same discussion many times.  I think it's more of a case that "I'm following the rules of my membership, and the other person isn't."  That's life.  The person that's not following the rules is taking a gamble with their membership.  That's a choice they have made.  Then there's those that feel the need to "police" the rule-breakers.  I don't see the benefit when that energy could be put towards other endeavors, but that's me.


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## bshmerlie (Aug 16, 2012)

Egret1986 said:


> Then there's those that feel the need to "police" the rule-breakers.  I don't see the benefit when that energy could be put towards other endeavors, but that's me.



Chances are they are just old people with a lot of time on their hands.


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## Egret1986 (Aug 16, 2012)

*Oooooh, funny!*



bshmerlie said:


> Chances are they are just old people with a lot of time on their hands.



Humor is good.


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## Fern Modena (Aug 16, 2012)

Ride, we've been there before. I guess you don't remember it, but I answered before as well.  Madge did indeed have approval from RCI to speak for them and answer questions on TUG.  She was part of their PR staff at the time.  If she didn't know the answer to something, she would ask the people who did know at RCI, and then get back to us.  There were some hypotheticals, of course, which she could not answer.

How do I know that she wasn't a cleaning lady, didn't even work for RCI, or something else?  Well, that is because I was the one who instituted a dialog with the then-RCI President to see if they could provide a presence on our boards.  There were emails back and forth from the President of RCI and several other people there asking what we were interested in and indicating how they might pparticipate.  Eventually there was a telephone conference call where Madge was introduced, after which she began answering questions.

Is that clear enough?  You might want to print this out in case you forget again, cause I have difficulty typing with my left hand now, and I don't know if I will want to do this again.

Fern



Ridewithme38 said:


> Who told you that she was 'official', her?  IMO, she was a faceless name behind a computer....Did i ever tell you that all my posts are officially sanctioned by the World Health Organization?   I'll send you a memo, to confirm...Just let me type it up real quick!
> 
> IF she had any involvement with RCI at all, i would be it was more on the level of cleaning lady then 'officially sanctioned representative'...There is just no way that anything she EVER wrote was anything more then her opinion


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## MuranoJo (Aug 17, 2012)

Then there's the old argument, "RCI rents out our deposits--why can't we rent out our exchanges?"   

Only seems fair, doesn't it?  

However, once you deposit, it belongs to the exchange company and your rights are there in the membership agreement (whether you decide to abide by them or not).


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