# [ 2011 ] True Cost of Points From Wyndham [2011]



## iplay1515

I was told by a Wyndham salesperson that the current price of Wyndham vacation points is $220.00 per 1000 points.  However, discounts are given depending on a number of factors.

My questions is: what is the best price anyone has seen on new Wyndham points with the discount?  

This discussion took place at Ocean Blvd. Myrtle Beach SC.


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## jjmanthei05

At least $150/k too much. Points on ebay are going for under $1000 for upwards of 500K and some contracts for $1 with closing costs and 2011 mf included. Whatever you do, don't by retail. 

Jason


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## ronparise

Your question is an interesting academic exercise...I was offered a small points package at Bonnet Creek for just under $175/1000 incl closing costs

Instead I bought 575000 points on the secondary market for under $600 (incl closing and transfer) $1.05/100 points


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## iplay1515

Wyndham sales reps are saying that eBay or any resale points can not be used to obtain status such as VIP, Gold, or Platinum. Therefore, they can't be used to make reservations 13 months out.

It appears that Wyndham is trying to restrict the resale market as much as they legally can.


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## iplay1515

ronparise said:


> Your question is an interesting academic exercise...I was offered a small points package at Bonnet Creek for just under $175/1000 incl closing costs
> 
> Instead I bought 575000 points on the secondary market for under $600 (incl closing and transfer) $1.05/100 points



Just wondering how low you can get the sales people to go by getting up and starting to walk out or using other tactics to make them come forward with their low ball price.


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## puppymommo

iplay1515 said:


> Wyndham sales reps are saying that eBay or any resale points can not be used to obtain status such as VIP, Gold, or Platinum. Therefore, they can't be used to make reservations 13 months out.



Making reservations 13 months out is called ARP and it has nothing to do with VIP status.  It has to do with your home resort.  Anyone, retail or resale owner, VIP or not, can book their own home resort 13 months out.

It is true that resale points cannot be used for any of the VIP levels.  Most people on this discussion board have decided that the VIP benefits are not worth the retail cost.


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## iplay1515

puppymommo said:


> Making reservations 13 months out is called ARP and it has nothing to do with VIP status.  It has to do with your home resort.  Anyone, retail or resale owner, VIP or not, can book their own home resort 13 months out.
> 
> It is true that resale points cannot be used for any of the VIP levels.  Most people on this discussion board have decided that the VIP benefits are not worth the retail cost.



What are the top three benefits to having VIP status?  I am new to this and trying to figure out where the truth really is.


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## vckempson

iplay1515 said:


> What are the top three benefits to having VIP status?  I am new to this and trying to figure out where the truth really is.



1. High salesman commission
2. Generous Gross Profit Margins for Wyndham
3.  Cheap available resale contracts for the rest of us when you don't want it any more.


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## Ridewithme38

iplay1515 said:


> What are the top three benefits to having VIP status?  I am new to this and trying to figure out where the truth really is.



Depending on VIP Level...50% off points needed for reservations at 60 days...15 complimentary Guest Certificates...Unlimited transaction credits....Unlimited Housekeeping credits...Request specific units...etc.


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## rrlongwell

Ridewithme38 said:


> Depending on VIP Level...50% off points needed for reservations at 60 days...15 complimentary Guest Certificates...Unlimited transaction credits....Unlimited Housekeeping credits...Request specific units...etc.



You forgot the most important one, a daily delivered newspaper, assuming that the resort decides to provide it.


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## iplay1515

I'm still curious about how low (price) anyone has been able to get Wyndham to go on retail points and how they did it.


Other than status or lack thereof, are there any other significant reasons not to buy points on the re-sale market?


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## Ridewithme38

iplay1515 said:


> Other than status or lack thereof, are there any other significant reasons not to buy points on the re-sale market?



IMO, NOTHING is worth the kind of prices they try to sell things retail...but if you like to burn money and you have thousands and thousands of dollar you want to throw away the VIP Benefits aren't a bad thing


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## iplay1515

Ridewithme38 said:


> IMO, NOTHING is worth the kind of prices they try to sell things retail...but if you like to burn money and you have thousands and thousands of dollar you want to throw away the VIP Benefits aren't a bad thing



The Wyndham sales group certainly try their best to convince you that re-sale point are next to worthless. It also appears that Wyndham Corporate would like to restrict the resale points as much as possible.

My respect for used car salesmen just went up a few notches.


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## Rent_Share

iplay1515 said:


> The Wyndham sales group certainly try their best to convince you that re-sale point are next to worthless.


 
And that you.we are so stupid to pay full price today for something that is worthless tomorrow

My respect for the oldest profession  . . . .  just went up


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## rrlongwell

Ridewithme38 said:


> IMO, NOTHING is worth the kind of prices they try to sell things retail...but if you like to burn money and you have thousands and thousands of dollar you want to throw away the VIP Benefits aren't a bad thing



$148 dollars per thousand at Smokey Mountain.

$160 dollar per thousand at Towers on the Grove with a Sands Ocean Club week (week 38 I believe) that was thrown in for free then PICed as part of the Sales Paperwork.  The Sands contract was an additional 105,000 points making the package deal at .071 cents per 1000, if I did the math right (do not count on it).  The Towers on the Grove is a deeded property (UDI) and not Access.  Additionally, part of the package was $89 dollars to convert a fixed week at Westwinds.  If this is counted that would be an additional 154,000 points.


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## Explorer7

Ridewithme38 said:


> Depending on VIP Level...50% off points needed for reservations at 60 days...15 complimentary Guest Certificates...Unlimited transaction credits....Unlimited Housekeeping credits...Request specific units...etc.



By no means will everyone check avail as often as I do nor do most people have the flexibility to travel that my wife and I enjoy but for those who do I think one of the top benefits is the upgrade to the next available highest unit
So far this year I have had 17  less than 1 week get aways all at 65% of the point value and upgraded about 90 percent of my reservations that have included a  35% discounted  1br at National Harbor upgraded to a 4br Presidential unit. 

This summer two 3br's upgraded from 1br’s at Gov Green and a studio upgraded to a 2br presidential at Panama City. By watching the last minute cancelations at National Harbor around the 4th of July I snagged a 3br for a discounted 1br for the 3rd and 4th of July.

Yes the benefit can go away any day and I doubt that most people will work as hard as I do to dig in and get these things but from speaking to others as I travel I have encountered others that do. 

Most of the time with married couples "The nerd" which is me in my marriage is the one that enjoys figuring out and taking the time to work the system. The "free spirit" which is my wife enjoys the ride by helping to choose destinations, however she does not know how to get deals on the Wyndham site or stay on top of the changes and "press the envelope" to stay on top. When I meet people while traveling  the Wyndham resorts I fine one partner in the marriage knows everything I do and the other knows nothing and does not want to.

 This is not a product for a “free spirit” who just wants a fun ride without the work of fully understanding the product better than the sales person and pressing the envelop to figure out how to get great deals …   

Most often I am reluctant to chime in when others are warning about VIP benefits because I really don't think most new buyers will ever do what it takes to make it pay and of course the rules can change at any time. I also rarely hear about the upgrades that likely only the savviest VIP’s are taking advantage of and rarely talk about, I should probably keep my mouth shut too.

One thing that keeps me sober is thinking about those who purchased Wyndham points expecting to get 2br’s from their 28K RCI deposits which no longer works.  Like the 28K upgrades that went away for RCI deposits made after Jan 11 the huge upgrades and discounts that I enjoy can go away too. But for now they are great and my family is enjoying to the max!

I hope I balanced the benefits with the risk well enough for someone to make a well informed decision during their hopefully extensive research.


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## Tia

VIP benefits change is an  important part of this , no guarantee of what they will be tomorrow. 




Explorer7 said:


> .........One thing that keeps me sober is thinking about those who purchased Wyndham points expecting to get 2br’s from their 28K RCI deposits which no longer works.  L*ike the 28K upgrades that went away for RCI deposits made after Jan 11 the huge upgrades and discounts that I enjoy can go away too.* But for now they are great and my family is enjoying to the max!.....


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## JimMIA

rrlongwell said:


> $148 dollars per thousand at Smokey Mountain.


Excellent!  I saved $72,000 buying resale!


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## rrlongwell

JimMIA said:


> Excellent!  I saved $72,000 buying resale!



Here are the actual numbers for my Summer reservations, all were VIP Discount some included the upgrades.  If a calendar is checked, one might notice these include weekends.    I will stay with the facts as related to me for my VIP Summer use this year.  From strictly a financial point of view (ignore the subjective value of the Summer bookings), I will stay with the facts as they relate to my Summer VIP usage this year (all my reservations for the Summer months were through the VIP program).  I will let the reader calculate my costs per thousand points used, my average percent discount, and if this is a typical example, the number of payback months/years need to make the continuing cost savings worth the initial investment.  I would suggest this analysis be used in evaluating any given Wyndham New Purchase Offer.  Most will not pass the muster.  On a case by case basis, some might.

6- 3-2011     2 nights      2 bedroom deluxe                                 Wyndham Skyline Tower  
                                          32,000        91,000 
6-17-2011    2 nights      1 Bedroom deluxe                                Skyline Tower
                      41,000         82,000  
7-1-2011      2 nights      1 bedroom B side                                  Wyndham Patriots Place   
                      18,500          82,000            upgraded to 2 bedroom lock-off         
7-15-2011    2 nights      1 bedroom deluxe      Old town Alexandria
                       41,000        82,000 
7-22-2011  2 nights       2 Bdrm Pres Res Suite
                      32,000        82,000
8-5-2011   2 nights        2 Bdrm Pres Res Suite     Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
                       44,500         123,000
8-10-2011      2 nights         2 bedroom deluxe            Smokey Mountain
                      20,000            40,000                             see below is a split reservation
8-12-2011       3 nights         3 bedroom deluxe            Smokey Mountain  
                       43,000           91,000                              see above is a split reservation
8-26-2011      6 nights         2 bedroom deluxe             Grand Desert
                       58,500          179,000
8-26-2011   2  nights     1 bedroom Suite         Skyline Tower
                     32,000          64,000


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## antjmar

rrlongwell said:


> 8-26-2011      6 nights         2 bedroom deluxe             Grand Desert
> 58,500          179,000


you know how I feel about VIP 
how did you get such a large discount?  was it cause you got the free room upgrade also?
Also as a VIP are you able to combine the discouints available to everyone (resort specials) with your VIP discount?


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## JimMIA

rrlongwell said:


> Here are the actual numbers for my Summer reservations, all were VIP Discount some included the upgrades.  If a calendar is checked, one might notice these include weekends.    I will stay with the facts as related to me for my VIP Summer use this year.  From strictly a financial point of view (ignore the subjective value of the Summer bookings), I will stay with the facts as they relate to my Summer VIP usage this year (all my reservations for the Summer months were through the VIP program).  I will let the reader calculate my costs per thousand points used, my average percent discount, and if this is a typical example, the number of payback months/years need to make the continuing cost savings worth the initial investment.  I would suggest this analysis be used in evaluating any given Wyndham New Purchase Offer.  Most will not pass the muster.  On a case by case basis, some might.
> 
> 6- 3-2011     2 nights      2 bedroom deluxe                                 Wyndham Skyline Tower
> 32,000        91,000
> 6-17-2011    2 nights      1 Bedroom deluxe                                Skyline Tower
> 41,000         82,000
> 7-1-2011      2 nights      1 bedroom B side                                  Wyndham Patriots Place
> 18,500          82,000            upgraded to 2 bedroom lock-off
> 7-15-2011    2 nights      1 bedroom deluxe      Old town Alexandria
> 41,000        82,000
> 7-22-2011  2 nights       2 Bdrm Pres Res Suite
> 32,000        82,000
> 8-5-2011   2 nights        2 Bdrm Pres Res Suite     Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
> 44,500         123,000
> 8-10-2011      2 nights         2 bedroom deluxe            Smokey Mountain
> 20,000            40,000                             see below is a split reservation
> 8-12-2011       3 nights         3 bedroom deluxe            Smokey Mountain
> 43,000           91,000                              see above is a split reservation
> 8-26-2011      6 nights         2 bedroom deluxe             Grand Desert
> 58,500          179,000
> 8-26-2011   2  nights     1 bedroom Suite         Skyline Tower
> 32,000          64,000


Great, you're getting very good value for your points.  But what did you PAY for your points?

I paid just under $2,000 for 501,000 points, including all costs.  Not quite as good as Ron got, but I'm happy with it.


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## rrlongwell

JimMIA said:


> Great, you're getting very good value for your points.  But what did you PAY for your points?
> 
> I paid just under $2,000 for 501,000 points, including all costs.  Not quite as good as Ron got, but I'm happy with it.



Cannot disclose that because I do not know (really).  A significant portion I gained control of under the Wyndham rules for succession and I did not pay much (Myrtle Beach times 3 and one at Smokey Mountains) the public record shows $1,250 dollars (not a real price because it was an agreement between some of the heirs on how to distribute the Wyndham Timeshare Asests, neither estate wanted them because of maintance fees and the cost of getting rid of them, I overpaid for them to stop disagreements between heirs).  

$700 dollars for a fixed week bought through Wyndham in Myrtle Beach. 

The Towers on the Grove price was already posted in another thread, I am rounding numbers from memory, I will defer to my earlier post.  13,xxx for 84,000 points at Towers on the Grove, a free fixed week at the Sands Ocean Club tossed in which was then PICed in.  $89 dollars for the conversion of the fixed week to points at Westwinds, three free RCI weeks plus bonus developer points.  The Smokey Mountain purchase and the Towers on Grove agreements contain written additions pertaining to VIP representations made during the sales pitches.  

$12,800 for the 2nd Smokey Mountain one.  Included two free RCI weeks (if I remember right) and bonus developer points.

My decision to buy retail was made for non-finacial reasons that I believe resulted in my receiving a lot more than the costs of aquisions made due to Estate impacts.  Using my VIP discounts and upgrades places my average cost per thousand at or well below the $4 or $5 per thousand price talked of in other threads.  

That is why I have suggested in other threads that an alternative to direct purchase from Wyndham a direct lease of a Plantium or Gold VIP account from a seller may be a viable alternate.  Now, in light of the current members directory wording pertaining to limitations on commericial use, I am not sure this is even viable.  If Wyndham starts enforcing this provision, than rentals other than to family and friends sould be done with other companies or Fixed Week, Converted Weeks, or UDI deeds if part of the Wyndham system.  I think Ron was on the right tract on his intrepretation of this issue.


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## ronparise

Ok

lets assume that you VIP platinun and you make half of your reservations within 60 days of check in  Your  1 million points will buy the equivalent of 1.5million.  

I will further assume that you paid $0.15 per point or $150000 for your points and your mf is $5/1000

To match your level of benefit I will have to own 1.5 million points. Lets assume I have to piece this together with three 500000 contracts and they cost me $5000 each. (total of $15000), and my mf is also $5/1000 points

so lets compare...
you have spent $150,000. I spent $15,000 
your mf will be $5000 a year, my mf $7500

so I am spending $2500 more a year than you are for mf ...but you spent $135,000 more up front.  That looks like about a 50 year break even point. My kids dont want this stuff and Ill be dead before I spend as much as you have

I didnt consider the upgrades to larger units...We could argue about this, but I dont think its worth anything (I dont see the value in having an extra bedroom that no one is using) 

Dont get me wrong, I would love to have the VIP benefits. I think they have real value, but its not worth it financially


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## bnoble

The last serious analysis I saw for a PlatVIP-qualified vs. resale points had a pretty simple bottom line.  If *everything* broke *just right*---you get full discounts on every single reservation, including the size upgrade; you require many transactions and guest certificates; you have PIC'd the maximum number of el-cheapo resale weeks; you negotiated hard (possibly with an equity swap) on your purchase price---then the qualified purchase arguably breaks even after about 10 years, and could generate a return after that.

The 10 year number is probably longer by now; that was 2-3 years ago, and since then resale prices have dropped further, and the cost to fully qualify an account has gone up.  Worse, the break-even scenario has a lot of "ifs", in my book.  A low $/K resale deed is a much simpler value proposition, and so exposes you to much less risk.


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## rrlongwell

ronparise said:


> Ok
> 
> lets assume that you VIP platinun and you make half of your reservations within 60 days of check in  Your  1 million points will buy the equivalent of 1.5million.
> 
> I will further assume that you paid $0.15 per point or $150000 for your points and your mf is $5/1000
> 
> To match your level of benefit I will have to own 1.5 million points. Lets assume I have to piece this together with three 500000 contracts and they cost me $5000 each. (total of $15000), and my mf is also $5/1000 points
> 
> so lets compare...
> you have spent $150,000. I spent $15,000
> your mf will be $5000 a year, my mf $7500
> 
> so I am spending $2500 more a year than you are for mf ...but you spent $135,000 more up front.  That looks like about a 50 year break even point. My kids dont want this stuff and Ill be dead before I spend as much as you have
> 
> I didnt consider the upgrades to larger units...We could argue about this, but I dont think its worth anything (I dont see the value in having an extra bedroom that no one is using)
> 
> Dont get me wrong, I would love to have the VIP benefits. I think they have real value, but its not worth it financially



Mine is a situation that is probably limited to estate situations.  To correct your assumtions.  I am using, for all practical purposes, all of my points in the discount window.  I agree, the upgrades, unless renting them, are primarily a subjective issue.

Last checked, my blended MF fees across the Wyndham timeshare holdings was about .006 per point or $6.00 per thousand (I have a bunch of Myrtle Beach timeshares that ups the average).  

My VIP usage rate would be in excess of 2 million points (I am just under 1 million 100 points not counting bonus points.

I have spent around $36,000 dollars.  You are dreaming if you think I would spend $150,000 on timeshares, Wyndham or otherwise.


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## rrlongwell

bnoble said:


> The last serious analysis I saw for a PlatVIP-qualified vs. resale points had a pretty simple bottom line.  If *everything* broke *just right*---you get full discounts on every single reservation, including the size upgrade; you require many transactions and guest certificates; you have PIC'd the maximum number of el-cheapo resale weeks; you negotiated hard (possibly with an equity swap) on your purchase price---then the qualified purchase arguably breaks even after about 10 years, and could generate a return after that.
> 
> The 10 year number is probably longer by now; that was 2-3 years ago, and since then resale prices have dropped further, and the cost to fully qualify an account has gone up.  Worse, the break-even scenario has a lot of "ifs", in my book.  A low $/K resale deed is a much simpler value proposition, and so exposes you to much less risk.



As I understand it, a common number in industry on a cost analysis is a 2 year and under break even point is a go.  Above 2 years needs to be closely looked at in terms of other goals and priorities.


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## rrlongwell

antjmar said:


> you know how I feel about VIP
> how did you get such a large discount?  was it cause you got the free room upgrade also?
> Also as a VIP are you able to combine the discouints available to everyone (resort specials) with your VIP discount?



VIP and upgrade for Grand Desert.  Never tried combining resort specials with VIP Discount.  Just went through the on line Resort Specials.  For the dates the same as I have have the same choises that I booked under.  For this week, it appears they are giving to the VIP Platium discount to everyone.  A friend of ours who has their own account checked a resort they wanted to go to.  They are not VIP, they got a 40 percent discount if they had booked it then.


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## Ridewithme38

As i understand it...the True cost of Wyndham kicks in when you try to sell it...or to your kids when you pass away...its smooth sailing till then


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## Explorer7

rrlongwell said:


> VIP and upgrade for Grand Desert.  Never tried combining resort specials with VIP Discount.  Just went through the on line Resort Specials.  For the dates the same as I have have the same choises that I booked under.  For this week, it appears they are giving to the VIP Platium discount to everyone.  A friend of ours who has their own account checked a resort they wanted to go to.  They are not VIP, they got a 40 percent discount if they had booked it then.



In the past you could not combine VIP discounts with resort specials, you simply get the higher discount when you book. In a plats case the 50% discount would supersede the 40% resort special.
As a Gold VIP the 40% resort special would supersede my 35% discount.


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## insuralife

*VIP status*



iplay1515 said:


> What are the top three benefits to having VIP status?  I am new to this and trying to figure out where the truth really is.



I have had my time share for a while.  I purchased it over the internet at a treee-mendous savings..  I love the concept even though all my friends think I'm crazy..  Here's the points issue...
With a Wyndham VIP at:
300,000 pts you receive a 25% disc if reservation is booked is within 60 days
500,000 pts you receive a 35% disc
1,000,000 pts you receive a 50% disc 
The trick VIP owners know to do is to book the vacation at 13 months or 12 months depending on the rules.  Then cancel the reservation 59 days before going and rebook! (no charge for the cancellation) You get both the reservation AND the discount!!

So there is a difference.

As far as timesale prices being low-balled, hi-balled or changing..  They can't because of real estate law and rebating.
So the answer?  Buy a tiny tiny package from Wyndham and have your existing pts retitled!  That is a bargining chip they will not let you walk away on!!

Buy on!!  And have fun!  Just got back from Vegas..  Grand Desert!  You have to try it!!


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## ausman

insuralife said:


> The trick VIP owners know to do is to book the vacation at 13 months or 12 months depending on the rules.  Then cancel the reservation 59 days before going and rebook! (no charge for the cancellation) You get both the reservation AND the discount!!





One post and this is it.?

Booking at 13 mths is ARP and any owner can do it, you don'nt need to be VIP.

Booking at 12 mths, or more likely 11 months, is utilising RARP and available 1 or 2 times per year only depending if VIP Gold or Platinum.

The VIP program is designed to use slower more available times, if you reserve and cancel a prime summer week for example then you are in in competition with all, while it does work it also does not. 

I wonder what the success rate percentage is.

All in all, paying retail for any VIP level is foolish.


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## timeos2

basham said:


> One post and this is it.?
> 
> Booking at 13 mths is ARP and any owner can do it, you don'nt need to be VIP.
> 
> Booking at 12 mths, or more likely 11 months, is utilising RARP and available 1 or 2 times per year only depending if VIP Gold or Platinum.
> 
> The VIP program is designed to use slower more available times, if you reserve and cancel a prime summer week for example then you are in in competition with all, while it does work it also does not.
> 
> I wonder what the success rate percentage is.
> 
> All in all, paying retail for any VIP level is foolish.



AMEN! There is no cost to obtain it, today, that can make it a true "deal". You will always pay far more than it's value especially at resale since it cannot be sold thus has a value of zero.   Planning to pay thousands upfront on the remote possibility that you can manage to squeeze an equal value out is not a reasonable plan or purchase. 

Those who can, possibly but still not certainly, come to breakeven have owned in most cases since resale was qualified to become VIP.  Despite an earlier post understand that TODAY there is NO WAY to get VIP using resale points.  

Also remember that with resale you are saving from day one and haven't had to front thousands of dollars you HOPE to get back if you're lucky. Instead, with resale, you immediately can get the use of the great Wyndham system for little or no upfront cost and reasonable, if not the lowest, annual fees.  

Trying to get VIP today is a bad move. Don't do it.


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## insuralife

Guys... guys...
I agree.....  you can't profit from vacationing if you end up giving Wyndham all your disposable money!
I was attempting to answer a question about VIP status and the benefits.
My last stay at Bonnet Creek I met a great guy who owned 4 million+ points.  He paid over ...way over $100,000..
Figure how much you would pay on e-bay for that many points!  No comparison and the discount would be much greater ( by 600%+ ) than the 50% discount VIP would give you!  So I could not agree more!  Resale is the only way to go..  And remember Wyndham specifically made it this way as a benefit to us...  They purposely don't want to buy back so there is no level of base $ support! Good for the resale buyer!

Now...  Next research is which resort has the best maint fee schedule!


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## ausman

insuralife said:


> Now...  Next research is which resort has the best maint fee schedule!



Has been done before, you may find the resources and people at http://WWW.WyndhamOwners.org helpful in your quest.


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## raptor78

> Now...  Next research is which resort has the best maint fee schedule!



I have been surprised as I have researched these, as the MF is a leading factor in my purchases with ARP being a rare secondary factor.  Some of the newest properties still have active sales staff and the MF appear low, and may really stay low, but they risk going up rapidly once the sales staff moves on. San Francisco and National Harbor are a couple like that -- who knows that the future will bring -- surprisingly, some of the older, more established properties have some of the lowest MF -- I have a contract at South Shore at Tahoe with MF at around $3.89/1K -- In my view, nearly an unheard of rate...

So, if you are checking out eBay resale or any of the other resale boards --  I would certainly check the MF first...  Most agree anything around $4.50 is a good deal -  Above $5.00 and you can find better unless there is another reason you are targeting that specific property (ARP)...

Myrtle Beach is one I am looking at now, due to ARP -- There is absolutely no way you will find the MF low in this area, if you want to own there, you just have to pony up 

Exploring properties for MF is actually fun -- Let's me consider contracts at properties I would have otherwise never considered, since it may not be a prime location I want to stay at, but the MF for the points make it worth acquiring...

Just my two cents 

Mike


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## insuralife

Explorer7 said:


> By no means will everyone check avail as often as I do nor do most people have the flexibility to travel that my wife and I enjoy but for those who do I think one of the top benefits is the upgrade to the next available highest unit
> So far this year I have had 17  less than 1 week get aways all at 65% of the point value and upgraded about 90 percent of my reservations that have included a  35% discounted  1br at National Harbor upgraded to a 4br Presidential unit.
> 
> This summer two 3br's upgraded from 1br’s at Gov Green and a studio upgraded to a 2br presidential at Panama City. By watching the last minute cancelations at National Harbor around the 4th of July I snagged a 3br for a discounted 1br for the 3rd and 4th of July.
> 
> Yes the benefit can go away any day and I doubt that most people will work as hard as I do to dig in and get these things but from speaking to others as I travel I have encountered others that do.
> 
> Most of the time with married couples "The nerd" which is me in my marriage is the one that enjoys figuring out and taking the time to work the system. The "free spirit" which is my wife enjoys the ride by helping to choose destinations, however she does not know how to get deals on the Wyndham site or stay on top of the changes and "press the envelope" to stay on top. When I meet people while traveling  the Wyndham resorts I fine one partner in the marriage knows everything I do and the other knows nothing and does not want to.
> 
> This is not a product for a “free spirit” who just wants a fun ride without the work of fully understanding the product better than the sales person and pressing the envelop to figure out how to get great deals …
> 
> Most often I am reluctant to chime in when others are warning about VIP benefits because I really don't think most new buyers will ever do what it takes to make it pay and of course the rules can change at any time. I also rarely hear about the upgrades that likely only the savviest VIP’s are taking advantage of and rarely talk about, I should probably keep my mouth shut too.
> 
> One thing that keeps me sober is thinking about those who purchased Wyndham points expecting to get 2br’s from their 28K RCI deposits which no longer works.  Like the 28K upgrades that went away for RCI deposits made after Jan 11 the huge upgrades and discounts that I enjoy can go away too. But for now they are great and my family is enjoying to the max!
> 
> I hope I balanced the benefits with the risk well enough for someone to make a well informed decision during their hopefully extensive research.



:whoopie: 

You are a worker!  Great going....  You have out done the best of the stories I have heard!
So if I do the math correctly, 
$200/1000 points at 50% discount (overall average)= $100/1000 points
the last e-bay sale was $1.00/210,000 pts with $5./mf..
am I right in my thinking???


----------



## insuralife

*What if I quit*

So here's a question for the group...  What if I quit paying my maint fees?
What can happen?
N ow, supposing I own a couple resales all with RCI memberships... what if I quit paying one of the mf's AFTER I have transfered the points over to RCI??


----------



## BellaWyn

insuralife said:


> So here's a question for the group...  What if I quit paying my maint fees?
> What can happen?
> N ow, supposing I own a couple resales all with RCI memberships... what if I quit paying one of the mf's AFTER I have transfered the points over to RCI??


Putting your Wyndham points into RCI is:
1) not a cost effective use of those points given the new point structure
2) not guaranteed if the MF's go unpaid

Wyndham and RCI, while separate entities are still in bed together.  If your MF's go unpaid on the Wyndham side, they would:
1) Lock down your Wyndham account
2) Lock down your Wyndham-provided RCI account
("lock down" meaning you would have no access without first interfacing with Wyndham accounting  <--- a hassle you don't want)

Seriously....???:annoyed:   You're pre-planning to defraud the system before you even get into it?  WTH!?


----------



## bnoble

> your Wyndham-provided RCI account


This is the key bit.

You can only transfer Wyn points into the Wyn-RCI portal.  You can't pay for that account independently.  As soon as your Wyn goes into default, you'd lose access to the Wyn-RCI portal.

There really is no free lunch.


----------



## MichaelColey

Reading about how much the value of Wyndham points drops after you buy them, I'm feeling much better about my investment in AIG (which lost like 98% of its value).


----------



## insuralife

basham said:


> Has been done before, you may find the resources and people at http://WWW.WyndhamOwners.org helpful in your quest.



  :whoopie: 

Thank you!!  Being a new-bee, that was helpful!


----------



## insuralife

BellaWyn said:


> Putting your Wyndham points into RCI is:
> 1) not a cost effective use of those points given the new point structure
> 2) not guaranteed if the MF's go unpaid
> 
> Wyndham and RCI, while separate entities are still in bed together.  If your MF's go unpaid on the Wyndham side, they would:
> 1) Lock down your Wyndham account
> 2) Lock down your Wyndham-provided RCI account
> ("lock down" meaning you would have no access without first interfacing with Wyndham accounting  <--- a hassle you don't want)
> 
> Seriously....???:annoyed:   You're pre-planning to defraud the system before you even get into it?  WTH!?



 

Nooo..  I don't know enough to fool with the system yet!  Just a question!
I sell insurance, as with insurance companies, and ways to get what you want inspite of their rules, I wwant to know the rules of this game every bit as well..  I know I will learn tons from you all here!  

And I thank you, each and every one, in advance!


----------



## BellaWyn

MichaelColey said:


> Reading about how much the value of Wyndham points drops after you buy them, I'm feeling much better about my investment in AIG (which lost like 98% of its value).


Michael:
I get the tongue-in-cheek on this...   but....  two different products with opposing reasons to purchase.  AIG buy-in intended for investment.  MOST Wyndham owners purchase with the intent "to go on vacation" and hopefully understand they are "pre-paying" to do that (regardless of the original purchase price) in better-than-a-hotel sized unit for their families.  The expectation of a return is generally related to memories and time-spent with people the owners enjoy, not to recover the original purchase price.

Again, "value" is relative when it comes to buying Wyndham and will be subjective to each owner.

_(value does not always translate to $$'s)_


----------



## BellaWyn

insuralife said:


> Nooo..  I don't know enough to fool with the system *yet!*



It's the "yet" that implies the focused intent to skirt the system. 

Regardless of what games the owners play, the resorts STILL have to maintain the properties, which cost $$!  Each property has an HOA that has to deal with non-paying owners and errant deeds that are in transition between seller & buyer.  Foreclosures and collections are costly and time consuming. In this down economy as the HOA's struggle for funds the result is an INCREASE in the maintenance fees to the PAYING OWNERS!  

The individual owner is not an island....  the games that get played have consequences.:annoyed:


----------



## rrlongwell

BellaWyn said:


> The individual owner is not an island....  the games that get played have consequences.:annoyed:



If you are going into this with the intent to defraud, you might want to re-consider.  The Flordia Attorney General, among others, is apparently having a lot of fun with the Timeshare Industry and people attempting this.


----------



## MichaelColey

BellaWyn said:


> Michael:
> I get the tongue-in-cheek on this...  but.... two different products with opposing reasons to purchase. AIG buy-in intended for investment. MOST Wyndham owners purchase with the intent "to go on vacation" and hopefully understand they are "pre-paying" to do that (regardless of the original purchase price) in better-than-a-hotel sized unit for their families.


They're more similar than you would think. The biggest difference is that you can KNOW before you purchase that the Wyndham developer points will see a 99% drop in value overnight.

Would you buy a used car from a dealership for $50k when you can buy the exact same car for $500 from the used car lot across the street? What if the dealership threw in free oil changes for life?

In fairness, I understand that many VIP members here bought in when VIP was cheaper and had more benefits and that others didn't realize how much you could save buying resale (or fell for salesman lies), and that some may indeed get enough value out of the VIP benefits for it to be worthwhile.


----------



## insuralife

BellaWyn said:


> It's the "yet" that implies the focused intent to skirt the system.
> 
> Regardless of what games the owners play, the resorts STILL have to maintain the properties, which cost $$!  Each property has an HOA that has to deal with non-paying owners and errant deeds that are in transition between seller & buyer.  Foreclosures and collections are costly and time consuming. In this down economy as the HOA's struggle for funds the result is an INCREASE in the maintenance fees to the PAYING OWNERS!
> 
> The individual owner is not an island....  the games that get played have consequences.:annoyed:



I appreciate your warning, however, my 'YET' actually refers to all the discounts that are available, yet not publicized (can I get a free newspaper?).  If one goes to a sales presentation, you can never expect to learn how to use the system.  You can't learn it in books, you learn from others!  So.. any intent to defraud may or may not be a legality issue, it is an ethical issue!  I hope enough was said. As for the HOA's running the resorts, I'm a president of a condo HOA.  There is no more cut throat business, on earth, that a condo association.  SO I know first hand how difficult it is to make ends meet without a certainty of income!
You sound like a Wydham employee, if so please report that my last stay was the best one so far.  However, the sales staffer appointed to me was worthless, and not a credit to the team.  As a salesman, I'd love to have a sales job with Wydham, but as a floating salesperson (resort to resort, with resort stay as a perk)!  They have to be easy to sell to someone that doesn't know better, just as selling a car at list price!


----------



## ronparise

BellaWyn said:


> MOST Wyndham owners purchase with the intent "to go on vacation" and hopefully understand they are "pre-paying" to do that



You sound like a Wyndham salesman when you say that. The salesperson that sold me made that same claim as if going on vacation sucks every shread of common sense out of you

she took the $15000 I was paying for an every other year deal (168000 points eoy) and came up with just $750 a year,...what a deal!

I dont think she realized that I had completed third grade arithmetic and even 55 years later I still remember a little bit of it

What she didnt include was the interest on the note I signed,(18%) over 10 years (monthly payments of over $300 a month)  or maintenance fees ($420 a year) or taxes.. my prepaid vacations were going to cost me  over $8000 each for the first 5 of them (10 years) and then just maintenance fees of about $400 a year.   spread all of it over lets say 30 years and assuming no increase in taxes or mf I would have paid $48000 for 15 vacations or over $3000 each......and then Ill be dead

Yea! what a deal indeed...If I had gone through with it I would have pre paid for vacation memories all right..I would have remembered this screwing for the rest of my life...some memory

I attended the pitch to earn a free vacation and I signed to get out of the room (and also as a lesson in salesmanship) I was at the post office the next day to rescind and a month later pre-paid a dollar for 385000 points



BellaWyn 

I agree value doesnt have everything to do with money; but money is part of the equation.  Please dont leave some one new to timeshare and new to Wyndham with the impression that it makes sense to buy from the developer.


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> ... you can never expect to learn how to use the system.  You can't learn it in books, you learn from others!



*WRONG!*
Most of us learned to use Wyndham by reading the Owner's Manual 3 TIMES with a highlighter or two. Suggest you read, cross reference it, read it with a different color highlighter and THEN read it AGAIN. It is a little confusing until you get the terms down. Then, it does make sense.


----------



## theo

*I guess I'm an oddball exception...*



vacationhopeful said:


> Most of us learned to use Wyndham by reading the Owner's Manual 3 TIMES with a highlighter or two. Suggest you read, cross reference it, read it with a different color highlighter and THEN read it AGAIN. It is a little confusing until you get the terms down. Then, it does make sense.



I no longer own within Wyndham (about which I am frankly quite happy), but I can honestly say that I *never* learned *anything* useful directly from Wyndham or any Wyndham-prepared materials. For that matter, I never actually had (and have never even seen) a Wyndham "Owner's Manual".

I learned and successfully used the Wyndham system reasonably well, but my "education" came from only two places --- these very TUG Wyndham forums and the excellent material and knowledgeable discussions and materials provided by Wyndham owners on forums.atozed.com.


----------



## siesta

The wyndham member directory (or owners manual) explains the ins and outs of the system, and is extremely informative. Everything i know has come from reading the owners manual. The only two pieces of info ive learned from tug that havent already been explained by the owners manual, is the reserve/cancel trick and mytle beach regional arp. I guess the 999 issue can be also mentioned, although that doesnt help one with utilizing the system so it doesnt necessarily count.


----------



## Smiles

iplay1515 said:


> I was told by a Wyndham salesperson that the current price of Wyndham vacation points is $220.00 per 1000 points.  However, discounts are given depending on a number of factors.
> 
> My questions is: what is the best price anyone has seen on new Wyndham points with the discount?
> 
> This discussion took place at Ocean Blvd. Myrtle Beach SC.




Hi, I'm new to all of this so this is probably a totally off the wall answer but I just spoke with a Wyndham counselor on the telephone last weekend as I was booking a night and I proceeded to ask her a lot of questions.  In the course of our conversation she mentioned that if one needed to purchase additional points that it would cost $8.00 for 1,000 points.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Smiles said:


> ...  In the course of our conversation she mentioned that if one needed to purchase additional points that it would cost $8.00 for 1,000 points.



That is to RENT points within 90 days of checkin. Not to BUY points. VCs only handle reservations and are NOT LICENSED to SELL REAL ESTATE for Wyndham.


----------



## insuralife

vacationhopeful said:


> *WRONG!*
> Most of us learned to use Wyndham by reading the Owner's Manual 3 TIMES with a highlighter or two. Suggest you read, cross reference it, read it with a different color highlighter and THEN read it AGAIN. It is a little confusing until you get the terms down. Then, it does make sense.



LInda...  Obvious you're single!  I'm a guy!  The last darn thing I'm going to do is read and reread some manual with 3 different colored highlighters!
And no, I don't need directions to reassemble the flux capacitor in my car!
As an aside, I don't wear a seat belt, I ride a great motorcycle and I don't own a map!
So...... I learn from others...  My 6 days here and reading comments have given me great insight to what to do.  I'm expecting that by the time I intend on traveling again, the experience will be even better as I will have gotten the bargin of a life time.
Again, thanks to all!


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> LInda...  Obvious you're single!  I'm a guy!  The last darn thing I'm going to do is read and reread some manual with 3 different colored highlighters!



Actually, I do construction work fulltime - rehabs mostly for the past 25+ years. I am the owner and boss. And I work with old guys set in their ways (many who like or ride motorcycles). I have been to several Biketoberfest Weeks at Daytona Ocean Walk. It is amazing how many of my guys can read when I put my foot up their butt  .

It is your money and your vacation and your yearly MFs. Planning for the good time vacations is 13 months out from checkin date IF you have ARP where you are going (like Bike Weeks). Otherwise, plan at less the 10 months out mark will get you into Orlando or Nashville. 

*Welcome to TUG! *


----------



## siesta

insuralife said:


> LInda...  Obvious you're single!  I'm a guy!  The last darn thing I'm going to do is read and reread some manual with 3 different colored highlighters!
> And no, I don't need directions to reassemble the flux capacitor in my car!
> As an aside, I don't wear a seat belt, I ride a great motorcycle and I don't own a map!
> So...... I learn from others...  My 6 days here and reading comments have given me great insight to what to do.  I'm expecting that by the time I intend on traveling again, the experience will be even better as I will have gotten the bargin of a life time.
> Again, thanks to all!


 i think she was just making a point. But you should read the manual .. the info to learn the system IS in fact right there under your nose.


----------



## insuralife

siesta said:


> i think she was just making a point. But you should read the manual .. the info to learn the system IS in fact right there under your nose.



Remember, as a secondary buyer, the mauals I got fit in a simple white envelope!  Until now, I didn't know there was one I could get!!


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> Remember, as a secondary buyer, the mauals I got fit in a simple white envelope!  Until now, I didn't know there was one I could get!!



Yes. Go to the website to request it and the new one will be mailed to you - FREE. I think you can also call the 1-800 number and the VC will order you one, too.

Many members here are resale owners. And the infamous owner's updates are just long winded sales presentations.


----------



## insuralife

vacationhopeful said:


> Actually, I do construction work fulltime - rehabs mostly for the past 25+ years. I am the owner and boss. And I work with old guys set in their ways (many who like or ride motorcycles). I have been to several Biketoberfest Weeks at Daytona Ocean Walk. It is amazing how many of my guys can read when I put my foot up their butt  .
> 
> It is your money and your vacation and your yearly MFs. Planning for the good time vacations is 13 months out from checkin date IF you have ARP where you are going (like Bike Weeks). Otherwise, plan at less the 10 months out mark will get you into Orlando or Nashville.
> 
> *Welcome to TUG! *



I'm in love with you already!  Still owning 15 of the last 29 rehabs done in spare time, NO ONE respects you more!!  I still perfer to listen first, rather than reading!  When I do have to read (all the time in my work) I know exactly what I need to learn... 
Bike Week... too crazy for me!  I was a NASCAR Winston Cup Crew Chief for numerous years...  Been there, done that, have the tee shirt and one tiny tiny tattoo!  Can you send pics of the rehab work??  Love construction, sell insurance cause I love construction work!!:whoopie: 
Have a wonderful eveining!


----------



## insuralife

It is amazing how many of my guys can read when I put my foot up their butt  .

Linda:  Do you know how nice it is to have a boss that's willing to work with difficult employees, or subs!!


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> I'm in love with you already!  ....  Have a wonderful eveining!



Thanks ....  Enjoy your evening also.  It is my bedtime as me and my pickup truck have a full day of fun tomorrow.


----------



## insuralife

vacationhopeful said:


> Yes. Go to the website to request it and the new one will be mailed to you - FREE. I think you can also call the 1-800 number and the VC will order you one, too.
> 
> Many members here are resale owners. And the infamous owner's updates are just long winded sales presentations.




Thank you!  I guess you proved your point...  all I had to do was read, and the answers would be provided!   Problem was; I didn't know what questions to ask!

Oh, and I love the updates I was presented with at the last vacation spot (Grand Desert)...  I just explained to the salesman that if he could build enough value in his presentation, I had the checkbook.  He just sent me directly to gifting!!  and the to the slot machines!  I actually won at the penny slots!  4X what they gave me!!  WooHooo!

Great time!


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> You sound like a Wyndham salesman when you say that. The salesperson that sold me made that same claim as if going on vacation sucks every shread of common sense out of you



I do not read it that way.  Timeshare owners do prepay for vacations.  Even if you pick up a timeshare for a $1 you are obligated to pay the annual fees even if do not want to take a vacation. 

Real estate agents tend to make the same math mistakes.  Especially in Florida where owners may only spend a few weeks a year there but end up having to pay expenses for the full year.  

We should all be able to agree on a few things.

-Developer prices are overpriced.  
-Wyndham VIP has more value than the non VIPs on here will admit or know.  This varies greatly on who is the potential owner. 
-Wyndham VIP is a very easy sell for the sales people.  
-Very smart people will buy Wyndham VIP and other developer timeshares. 

Once people realize these 4 points further discussions will be a lot more meaningful.


----------



## BellaWyn

Light reading


----------



## insuralife

Quote:
Originally Posted by insuralife  
You sound like a Wydham employee <--- There is not enough money on the face of this planet to make that "equation" worth considering!   

Bella............  Bella!!  
You may feel that way, personally I see Wyndham as a fantastic company to work for!  They treat the employee in a most remarkable way.  Even as a sales agent... one could be proud of the job they do as long as the explanation is thorough and factual.  As for a return on investment, well, that's in the mind of the beholder.

As for women being the readers... well, umm, just take that as the great trust we men place in women every day!  I do that every day, and so far, I'm happy with the ones I have chosen!


----------



## insuralife

OK... a points usage question for the professional Wyndham points user!
I have 40K points that expire 12/31.  I want to plan a vacation for April 2012.  I can't make that reservation now and borrow 2012 pts to add to my current 40K points to complete the reservation because of the 90 day clause..  Correct???
So, can I make that reservation in Dec for Feb 2012 (within the 90 day period) and then can I cancel it pushing the 40K points from this year to next and then, at the same time making a reservation for April when I originally intended?????
Sound like you can follow my logic?  or illogical?


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> I do not read it that way.  Timeshare owners do prepay for vacations.  Even if you pick up a timeshare for a $1 you are obligated to pay the annual fees even if do not want to take a vacation.
> 
> Real estate agents tend to make the same math mistakes.  Especially in Florida where owners may only spend a few weeks a year there but end up having to pay expenses for the full year.
> 
> We should all be able to agree on a few things.
> 
> -Developer prices are overpriced.
> -Wyndham VIP has more value than the non VIPs on here will admit or know.  This varies greatly on who is the potential owner.
> -Wyndham VIP is a very easy sell for the sales people.
> -Very smart people will buy Wyndham VIP and other developer timeshares.
> 
> Once people realize these 4 points further discussions will be a lot more meaningful.



Im a real estate salesman in Florida (but I suspect you know that) But there is no way I can convince anyone to buy anything....If they dont already want this stuff, I move on to someone who does.. I dont sell I consult...My clients buy...The guys that really sell, like timeshare salesmen  sell to their buyers emotion rather than to their logic. Ie they sell the sizzle, not the steak

I agree with your 4 points

Timeshare Developer prices are too high  by about 50%..When Wyndham takes a property into  WAAM they figure on about 60% for marketing and commission...There's something wrong when a product needs that much to get sold

Wyndham VIP has great value, but I can achieve the same end, for a whole lot less money...I would like to be Platinum in the worst kind of way...but I wont pay what they want for it...Its a whole lot cheaper for me to pay the maintenance fees on 4 million points than to pay developer prices and mf on 2 million...Im looking for an old guy...older tham me...to leave his platinum account to me when he dies...

Wyndham VIP is a very easy sell for the sales people.  This is because they ask their customers to leave their brains at the door

Very smart people will buy Wyndham VIP  Of course...so will dumb people...Smarts have nothing to do with it. All it takes is money...


----------



## rrlongwell

insuralife said:


> OK... a points usage question for the professional Wyndham points user!
> I have 40K points that expire 12/31.  I want to plan a vacation for April 2012.  I can't make that reservation now and borrow 2012 pts to add to my current 40K points to complete the reservation because of the 90 day clause..  Correct???
> So, can I make that reservation in Dec for Feb 2012 (within the 90 day period) and then can I cancel it pushing the 40K points from this year to next and then, at the same time making a reservation for April when I originally intended?????
> Sound like you can follow my logic?  or illogical?



Unless you have multiple use years, then this probably would not work.  If you are interested and what to risk losing 40,000 points, you can give it a try through the computer.  If not, then call the reservations person and explain what you want to do and see if they could do it for you.  If they cannot, then ask for a supervisor.  Those two levels do have authority to grant exceptions to the rules for booking purposes.  Whether they do it in your case, I do not know.

P.S.  I think I need to turn you into the smiley face protection legeau for picking the one that has the poor face banging into a wall and making the face frown.


----------



## insuralife

rrlongwell said:


> Unless you have multiple use years, then this probably would not work.  If you are interested and what to risk losing 40,000 points, you can give it a try through the computer.  If not, then call the reservations person and explain what you want to do and she if they could do it for you.  If they cannot, then ask for a supervisor.  Those two levels do have authority to grant exceptions to the rules for booking purposes.  Whether they do it in your case, I do not know.



Home run, my friend!  Thank you!  I will try the computer first and then call.


----------



## ronparise

insuralife said:


> OK... a points usage question for the professional Wyndham points user!
> I have 40K points that expire 12/31.  I want to plan a vacation for April 2012.  I can't make that reservation now and borrow 2012 pts to add to my current 40K points to complete the reservation because of the 90 day clause..  Correct???
> So, can I make that reservation in Dec for Feb 2012 (within the 90 day period) and then can I cancel it pushing the 40K points from this year to next and then, at the same time making a reservation for April when I originally intended?????
> Sound like you can follow my logic?  or illogical?



I dont follow

You cant use your 2011 points to make a 2012 reservation
You cant push your 2011 points into 2012

You can make that 2012 reservation now but you will be using your 2012 points (and if you dont have enough you can use the points credit pool to use some 2013 points)

One of the reasons I bought Wyndham points is because there are so many resorts close to my home, and I can go on short notice...Id use the 40k points  for a mid week getaway 

Heres a some what convoluted way to use your 40k 2011 points for a 2012 vacation 

You can pull the 2012 points into 2011, using the points credit pool, make a 2011 reservation, cancel it and then deposit the cancelled points into RCI  and make your reservation there for April (and pay an exchange fee) just be sure to deposit enough points (refer to the world wide exchange table)


----------



## insuralife

ronparise said:


> I dont follow
> 
> You cant use your 2011 points to make a 2012 reservation
> You cant push your 2011 points into 2012
> 
> You can make that 2012 reservation now but you will be using your 2012 points (and if you dont have enough you can use the points credit pool to use some 2013 points)
> 
> One of the reasons I bought Wyndham points is because there are so many resorts close to my home, and I can go on short notice...Id use the 40k points  for a mid week getaway
> 
> Heres a some what convoluted way to use your 40k 2011 points for a 2012 vacation
> 
> You can pull the 2012 points into 2011, using the points credit pool, make a 2011 reservation, cancel it and then deposit the cancelled points into RCI  and make your reservation there for April (and pay an exchange fee) just be sure to deposit enough points (refer to the world wide exchange table)



Ron...  thanks..  yes!  That was what I was going to do...  pull 2012 points into 2011 and make the reservation for sometime in 2012 (Iguess within 90 days)...  Then in 2012, I was going to cancel the reservation and the cancelled points would ALL (including the 2011 40K points) be retained in the canceled points pool (or what ever it's called).  Then... I would rebook the resort for the date I wanted AND be able to use those 40K points!!
Now do I make sense???  
Again, thanks for your input.......


----------



## learnalot

ronparise said:


> I dont follow
> 
> You cant use your 2011 points to make a 2012 reservation
> You cant push your 2011 points into 2012
> 
> You can make that 2012 reservation now but you will be using your 2012 points (and if you dont have enough you can use the points credit pool to use some 2013 points)
> 
> One of the reasons I bought Wyndham points is because there are so many resorts close to my home, and I can go on short notice...Id use the 40k points  for a mid week getaway
> 
> Heres a some what convoluted way to use your 40k 2011 points for a 2012 vacation
> 
> You can pull the 2012 points into 2011, using the points credit pool, make a 2011 reservation, cancel it and then deposit the cancelled points into RCI  and make your reservation there for April (and pay an exchange fee) just be sure to deposit enough points (refer to the world wide exchange table)



This is a workable option but it will cost you $39 to put the points into the credit pool.  You can accomplish essentially the same thing and avoid that fee by just doing an express reservation/cancel as you described earlier.  But your scenario of the cancelled points from that reservation going into next year won't happen.  The points will go into this year, but you would be able to then deposit them in RCI and make an exchange for your 2012 stay.  

Actually, having just explained that, I am now going to amend my advice.  This would have been our counsel to you prior to january of 2011, but it just occurred to me that since they changed the deposit procedure, the reserve/cancel is an unnecessary step in your case.  You could simply deposit the 40k remaining of your 2011 points and then make an additional deposit using 2012 points.  The points will comingle in your RCI account.  If you make both deposits the same day, it will only cost you one transaction fee.

The only time the reserve/cancel thing should come into play now is when someone wants to deposit their leftover points to RCI but does not have enough for the minimum (27k).


----------



## insuralife

learnalot said:


> This is a workable option but it will cost you $39 to put the points into the credit pool.  You can accomplish essentially the same thing and avoid that fee by just doing an express reservation/cancel as you described earlier.  But your scenario of the cancelled points from that reservation going into next year won't happen.  The points will go into this year, but you would be able to then deposit them in RCI and make an exchange for your 2012 stay.
> 
> Actually, having just explained that, I am now going to amend my advice.  This would have been our counsel to you prior to january of 2011, but it just occurred to me that since they changed the deposit procedure, the reserve/cancel is an unnecessary step in your case.  You could simply deposit the 40k remaining of your 2011 points and then make an additional deposit using 2012 points.  The points will comingle in your RCI account.  If you make both deposits the same day, it will only cost you one transaction fee.
> 
> The only time the reserve/cancel thing should come into play now is when someone wants to deposit their leftover points to RCI but does not have enough for the minimum (27k).



I believe I follow you...  But what if I cancel the reservation I make this year (2011 with combined points of the 2012 year and the balance of the 2011 year), in 2012???  where would the cancelled points go???


----------



## learnalot

insuralife said:


> Ron...  thanks..  yes!  That was what I was going to do...  pull 2012 points into 2011 and make the reservation for sometime in 2012 (Iguess within 90 days)...  Then in 2012, I was going to cancel the reservation and the cancelled points would ALL (including the 2011 40K points) be retained in the canceled points pool (or what ever it's called).  Then... I would rebook the resort for the date I wanted AND be able to use those 40K points!!
> Now do I make sense???
> Again, thanks for your input.......



You can't pull 2012 points in for a 2011 reservation and then have them returned as 2012 points.  Once you borrow points, they cease to belong to the year you pulled them from and become part of the year of the reservation you made with them.  The only way (at this stage) for you to extend 2011 points into 2012 is to deposit them with RCI.  (In the future, if you wish, you can pool points BEFORE their use year begins.  When you place them in the credit pool, they are good for 3 years from the date they are pooled.  Note that tpooled points cannot be used for ARP reservations at 13 months out.


----------



## insuralife

learnalot said:


> You can't pull 2012 points in for a 2011 reservation and then have them returned as 2012 points.  Once you borrow points, they cease to belong to the year you pulled them from and become part of the year of the reservation you made with them.  The only way (at this stage) for you to extend 2011 points into 2012 is to deposit them with RCI.  (In the future, if you wish, you can pool points BEFORE their use year begins.  When you place them in the credit pool, they are good for 3 years from the date they are pooled.  Note that tpooled points cannot be used for ARP reservations at 13 months out.



OK.......  That answer I fully understand!  
Thank you again!
A long week in Daytona...  Here I come!


----------



## learnalot

insuralife said:


> I believe I follow you...  But what if I cancel the reservation I make this year (2011 with combined points of the 2012 year and the balance of the 2011 year), in 2012???  where would the cancelled points go???



You would lose them because you must cancel 15 days prior to check-in to receive them back as cancelled points.  Since 2011 points wouod have to be used for a 2011 reservation, you wouldn't be able to cancel it in 2012 as it would already have passed.


----------



## ronparise

learnalot said:


> You could simply deposit the 40k remaining of your 2011 points and then make an additional deposit using 2012 points.  The points will comingle in your RCI account.  If you make both deposits the same day, it will only cost you one transaction fee.
> 
> The only time the reserve/cancel thing should come into play now is when someone wants to deposit their leftover points to RCI but does not have enough for the minimum (27k).



Thanks for straightening me out...I knew what I suggested seemed too convoluted.I had the points credit pool on my mind recently..I used it to use my 2013 points for a 2012 reservation

Heres a piece of unsolicited advice.....Next year plan ahead so as to not need the RCI option.. It really felt good the other day to make a reservation that used the last of my 2011 points...and zeroed out my account...Ill be cooking Thanksgiving dinner in a 2 bedroom at National Harbor for my wife and I and her son and his fiance and who knows how many other assorted brothers and sisters and cousins that  live in the DC area


----------



## learnalot

ronparise said:


> Thanks for straightening me out...I knew what I suggested seemed too convoluted.I had the points credit pool on my mind recently..I used it to use my 2013 points for a 2012 reservation
> 
> Heres a piece of unsolicited advice.....Next year plan ahead so as to not need the RCI option.. It really felt good the other day to make a reservation that used the last of my 2011 points...and zeroed out my account...Ill be cooking Thanksgiving dinner in a 2 bedroom at National Harbor for my wife and I and her son and his fiance and who knows how many other assorted brothers and sisters and cousins that  live in the DC area



Well Ron, it used to be that convoluted!  I had to straighten myself out within my own post  but I decided to leave the train of thought there to remind us that we can adjust our thinking now.


----------



## am1

The member directory explains everything that you guys were just discussing.  Well except  borrowing and cancelling to deposit into RCI.  But I believe it does say that borrowed points that are cancelled will remain in the current use year.

In 4 years I have never had any points expire on me but it looks like September 30th I will have 150 that do.


----------



## BellaWyn

am1 said:


> In 4 years I have never had any points expire on me but it looks like September 30th I will have 150 that do.


Stick them in to RCI.  It will give you a 2-year window to use them.


----------



## insuralife

ronparise said:


> Thanks for straightening me out...I knew what I suggested seemed too convoluted.I had the points credit pool on my mind recently..I used it to use my 2013 points for a 2012 reservation
> 
> Heres a piece of unsolicited advice.....Next year plan ahead so as to not need the RCI option.. It really felt good the other day to make a reservation that used the last of my 2011 points...and zeroed out my account...Ill be cooking Thanksgiving dinner in a 2 bedroom at National Harbor for my wife and I and her son and his fiance and who knows how many other assorted brothers and sisters and cousins that  live in the DC area



Ron..  after your trip, please post or send me an IM about the trip...  This is the trip I am planning and was trying to use my last 2011 points for..  so I'll be using 2012 pts.

I can't thank everyone enough, for the great advice...


----------



## ronparise

deleted this


----------



## bnoble

> I'm a guy! The last darn thing I'm going to do is read and reread some manual with 3 different colored highlighters!


I am too.  Read the damn book.  If you don't, that's fine, it is your money.  If it is my money, I'm going to understand it.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> I am too.  Read the damn book.  If you don't, that's fine, it is your money.  If it is my money, I'm going to understand it.



Yes read the book.  Wyndham is a complex system.  It is not like assembling furniture.  Without understanding the book you will understand what is discussed on here.  Regardless of if you are a man or woman.  

People should read the book before they buy.  If they still feel they do not understand or be capable of understanding then Wyndham is not for them.


----------



## insuralife

Hey...  people!!  Listen, I know now!!  I will read the book ...  4 times, not just 3..  But you may have forgotten when you first started here..  You have to know the book exists!
You know it's kind of like the city fella not knowing horses get easily spooked and want to run... AND ... THAT's why you close the barn door!!

I want to meet up with Ron and Linda and Bella, and study at their feet!


----------



## ronparise

insuralife said:


> I want to meet up with Ron and Linda and Bella, and study at their feet!



Oh Man...that could be a  mistake


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> ...I want to meet up with Ron and Linda and Bella, and study at their feet!



I will be at Ocean Walk for Biketoberfest in Oct; in Ft Lauderdale for Thanksgiving and after Christmas; at AKV at DVC and BC the 2nd and 3rd weeks of Dec.  

Just got to love all these great vacation places.


----------



## timeos2

am1 said:


> Yes read the book.  Wyndham is a complex system.  It is not like assembling furniture.  Without understanding the book you will understand what is discussed on here.  Regardless of if you are a man or woman.
> 
> People should read the book before they buy.  If they still feel they do not understand or be capable of understanding then Wyndham is not for everybody



I was an owner for over 15 years, read the book, understood the book & got a personal tutorial in my first year from an extremely helpful & understanding (at that time Fairfield) agent who was patient with a newbie and carefully went over virtually every nuance. 

I agree with you except for your post a few back that VIP is far more valuable & a good deal for the right owner. Excluding those who were grandfathered in back when resale could be qualified no one, no exceptions, can make a retail purchase today to get VIP a better value or cheaper than resale as Ron correctly stated. The only remote possibility is the rare situation where an existing VIP owner has set up a trust or whatever to transfer those rights to a new owner.  Even then it is unlikely to be less costly than simply buying resale and in any case those situations are few if any even exist and could be successfully transferred. 

Anyone that tries to say VIP "is worth it" is selling you a line of BS - be they sales weasel or customer. It just isn't so and if you buy into it you will be wasting big money in search of non-existent "savings". Don't be fooled. VIP today is a costly mistake. Just buy whatever you need resale & be way ahead.


----------



## vacationhopeful

ronparise said:


> Oh Man...that could be a  mistake



Come on, I could sell a couple of my timeshares .... esp the Ocean Walk babies.


----------



## am1

timeos2 said:


> I agree with you except for your post a few back that VIP is far more valuable & a good deal for the right owner. Excluding those who were grandfathered in back when resale could be qualified no one, no exceptions, can make a retail purchase today to get VIP a better value or cheaper than resale as Ron correctly stated. The only remote possibility is the rare situation where an existing VIP owner has set up a trust or whatever to transfer those rights to a new owner.  Even then it is unlikely to be less costly than simply buying resale and in any case those situations are few if any even exist and could be successfully transferred.
> 
> Anyone that tries to say VIP "is worth it" is selling you a line of BS - be they sales weasel or customer. I just isn't so and if you buy into it you will be wasting big money in search of non-existent "savings". Don't be fooled. VIP today is a costly mistake. Adjust buy whatever you need resale & be way ahead.



You are wrong.


----------



## siesta

am1 said:


> You are wrong.


 i happen to agree with timeos. VIP is a marketing ploy.

Anyone that can turn a vip purchase into a cost effective means of ownership is in the minority, and it may be nearly impossible if you arent young enough.


----------



## am1

siesta said:


> VIP is a marketing ploy.
> 
> Anyone that can turn a vip purchase into a cost effective means of ownership is in the minority, and it may be nearly impossible if you arent young enough.



You are a 100% correct.  VIP is a marketing ploy.  It is a hook to get retail buyers to buy more.  Its an easy sell when someone has already been sold 154k points.  They only have to buy 146k more points to be VIP or 173k more points and will be VIP Gold for 2 years. Wyndham banks on most people not knowing how to use it.  

Where Time02 is wrong and has been wrong many times is saying VIP is never a good deal for anyone today.  And anyone saying it is trying to sell a line of BS.

With posts like this it makes me wonder Time02 credibility.  

I would advise anyone considering a timeshare purchase to do as much research as they can.  Then do a little more.  Crunch the numbers.  If you are unsure do not buy whether it is resale or retail.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> You are a 100% correct.  VIP is a marketing ploy.  It is a hook to get retail buyers to buy more.  Its an easy sell when someone has already been sold 154k points.  They only have to buy 146k more points to be VIP or 173k more points and will be VIP Gold for 2 years. Wyndham banks on most people not knowing how to use it.
> 
> Where Time02 is wrong and has been wrong many times is saying VIP is never a good deal for anyone today.  And anyone saying it is trying to sell a line of BS.
> 
> With posts like this it makes me wonder Time02 credibility.
> 
> I would advise anyone considering a timeshare purchase to do as much research as they can.  Then do a little more.  Crunch the numbers.  If you are unsure do not buy whether it is resale or retail.



If you do crunch the numbers you will never buy retail from Wyndham, even if they throw in VIP 

I would like to see the numbers crunching that leads you to the conclusion that VIP is  a good deal for anyone today...The math just dosent work...its even hard to conclude that inheriting a VIP ownership makes sense.


----------



## insuralife

vacationhopeful said:


> I will be at Ocean Walk for Biketoberfest in Oct; in Ft Lauderdale for Thanksgiving and after Christmas; at AKV at DVC and BC the 2nd and 3rd weeks of Dec.
> 
> Just got to love all these great vacation places.



Ohhh crud!  I just finished highlighting ARP as an abbreviation...  Now I need to know more???   I know the Southern Standard Building Code... doesn't that count for something?? 
I'm a stone's throw from Ft Lauderdale...  well, a big throw!!


----------



## insuralife

ronparise said:


> Oh Man...that could be a  mistake



OK....  maybe at your feet! 

 but what about Vacationhopeful's??  those feet any better???

Imagine the stories we could lie about, the cee-gars we could smoke, and the adult beverages we could down!

Life is good!


----------



## insuralife

ronparise said:


> If you do crunch the numbers you will never buy retail from Wyndham, even if they throw in VIP
> 
> I would like to see the numbers crunching that leads you to the conclusion that VIP is  a good deal for anyone today...The math just dosent work...its even hard to conclude that inheriting a VIP ownership makes sense.





Doesent there come a time when money on timeshares takes away from other travel..  Repositioning cruises!  Flying lessons,  throwing a dart at a map of North America and drive there... ?????


----------



## timeos2

*VIP doesn't compute*



ronparise said:


> If you do crunch the numbers you will never buy retail from Wyndham, even if they throw in VIP
> 
> I would like to see the numbers crunching that leads you to the conclusion that VIP is  a good deal for anyone today...The math just dosent work...its even hard to conclude that inheriting a VIP ownership makes sense.



Not trying to start a war but the numbers don't work (made worse by the fact that the already costly " benefits can and have been terminated at the Whim of Wyndham).  I continue to mention that simple fact to hopefully keep newbies or those tempted by the siren song of VIP from making a costly error they will never recover.  Paying a ton of money upfront in order to supposedly "save money" is just not a viable plan. Wyndham is not alone in trying to sell thus but VIP is one of the worst examples. I have no reason to push one way or the other - I just hate to see people buy into lies to "save money" when in fact it will cost them dearly. Why anyone except the sales weasels and their over compensated bosses would recommend it is a mystery to me.

I am not completely closed minded so IF AM1 or anyone else that feels VIP somehow does save money all they need to do is post the figures to prove it and just how long, using those assumptions and no end to the program benefits, it would take to reach even the breakeven point. To date no such analysis that can stand up to close examination has ever been given but if there is such a thing lets see it. If it proves me wrong I'll gladly retract my statements.


----------



## vacationhopeful

insuralife said:


> Ohhh crud!  I just finished highlighting ARP as an abbreviation...  Now I need to know more???   I know the Southern Standard Building Code... doesn't that count for something??
> I'm a stone's throw from Ft Lauderdale...  well, a big throw!!



Keep up the heavy reading.


----------



## vckempson

am1 said:


> You are wrong.



You need a reality check.  I challenge you to find *ANY* realistic situation where purchasing retail to get VIP makes any financial sense.  It's a losing proposition, and the more you buy into it the more you will lose.  Post the particulars if you think differently.  We're all open minded enough to be proved wrong if you have the data to back it up.


----------



## bnoble

> If you do crunch the numbers you will never buy retail from Wyndham, even if they throw in VIP


Exactly so.  Even the most optimistic but still vaguely credible analysis I have ever seen had the VIP owner *at best* breaking even.  And, that required the maximum use of PIC contracts, a hard negotiation on the remaining price, the fullest possible discounts and upgrades on *every single* booking, every booking made on a separate day (requiring a transaction), and bookings that were exclusively short-stays (where HK credits are burned faster than points) and with guest certificates on everything.  And, this was several years ago now, when VIP benefits were somewhat more generous *and* when resale deeds actually cost money to buy.  

That's not to say that VIP has "no value" in an absolute sense.  It just doesn't pay off relative to what it costs to acquire.  And, on average, it *can't* pay off---because otherwise Wyndham loses money on every VIP sale.  How likely is that?


----------



## MichaelColey

I think one miss on the calculations is the assumption that ALL of the owners points were purchased from the developer.

If you use creative ways to hit 1 million points (PIC two 3BR Gold Crown Red weeks, requalify a previous purchase, and a minimal developer purchase) then buy a larger number of resale points, you might hit the breakeven point much sooner.  You get your full Platinum VIP discount on all of your points, so the cost is distributed over a larger number of points.

Of course the huge risk there is that Wyndham can (and probably will, based on history) change the rules numerous times along the way.

I still wouldn't do it, but I sure do appreciate all the VIP owners out there who rent out their points.  For not much more than the MFs, you can rent from a VIP owner and get the most important VIP Benefits without being stuck with a huge upfront expense, risk, and ongoing commitment.


----------



## bnoble

> I think one miss on the calculations is the assumption that ALL of the owners points were purchased from the developer.


Nope.  The one I mentioned above included PIC.  Requalification has less leverage than PIC does, because (usually) you need to buy on a 1-1 basis to match your requal (and can't negotiate the price down on that, either).  Plus, I don't think you'd find a sales office that would write a deal to do both PIC and Requal at once without bumping up the minimum purchase requirement.  They seem to use the same set of rules to exclude things that I would use to cross over into "maybe it pays."

And, even then, you still would need to get discounts and upgrades on almost every single booking---which means deep offseason travel, or traveling to drastically over-supplied areas.  And, in those cases, you can probably do just as well with exchange (with non-Wyndham assets) or Last Call-like mechanisms as you could playing the VIP discount game.


----------



## MichaelColey

But, for instance, if you are Platinum VIP for the "minimum" upfront investment and you have an additional 10 million points that you bought resale, you can get the Platinum discount on the full 11 million.  Someone who did that could recoup his upfront costs quite a bit quicker than someone with only 1 million points.  (Also, there's some cap on the number of contracts you can have in an account, so my example might not even be possible.)

I still think it's a questionable and risky venture, though.


----------



## bnoble

Most regular humans (you know, folks who can't be in Orlando for umpty-seven consecutive weeks) could not use that much vacation time.  An account that large quickly pushes into "not really plausible" territory.


I suppose you could try to rent it, but I still bet the ROI on a resale would be better because the basis cost is so low, and the downside risk of VIP rules changing drastically is huge---in particular, tracking source of points *within* an account, and only extending VIP benefits to those from a direct purchase.


----------



## BellaWyn

*Regular Humans*



bnoble said:


> Most regular humans (you know, folks who can't be in Orlando for umpty-seven consecutive weeks) could not use that much vacation time.  An account that large quickly pushes into "not really plausible" territory


This is really the key to the whole "To-VIP or Not-to-VIP" argument  And, it's WHY VIP doesn't crunch in the numbers as John is so happy to keep reminding everyone.  Regardless of HOW VIP is obtained (inherited, grandfathered, combo-purchase, etc) all the Dominoes have to fall correctly to get ANY reasonable ROI, if EVER with a VIP purchase.  It's just isn't plausible for the "regular human" to own that many points or risk the benefits disappearing.

That being said.....  the way I read AM1's response is in reply to John's statement that it's IMPOSSIBLE to make it happen.  He merely said "you are wrong" to the ABSOLUTE posturing that it can't be done!  Which, for the "regular humans" is without question TRUE!  *It can't be done!* But it IS being done by the "not-so-regular-humans" who chose to step out of the box to make it work.  Therefore, the absolute no longer exists.  

The NORM is still accurate and valid.  *VIP is a marketing ploy* and Wyndham banks (over and over and over) on sucking uneducated buyers into that trap.  I do NOT advocate purchasing developer or suggesting that it makes any sense to do so!  Most VIP owners don't even understand how to adequately eek out the smallest return with the benefits.  Another thing Wyndham banks on and is glad to walk away with your monies because of the high probably of this happening. 

But what I cannot agree with is the posturing that it is an absolute impossibility that those rare "not-so-regular" VIP owners can obtain an eventual ROI (in whatever lifetime makes sense to them).   If, in fact that is happening, especially if it's in a reasonable amount of time, there is no way in hell those people are going to offer up their numbers.  They've found a way to make it work and they are NOT going to share the details, especially in a public forum.  It would be like a day-trader giving up all their investment secrets.

There is still *NO QUESTION that* for Regular Humans *purchasing VIP is financially imprudent.* If you are a newbie or an existing owner and Wyndham is enticing you to do this, don't.  It makes no financial sense.  *Buy resale, learn the system, READ THE DIRECTORY and go on vacation!*

But if it were a cut and dried ABSOLUTE that it can't be done then there wouldn't be "umpty-thousands" of threads rolling around TUG on this very issue.  The main point is IT CAN'T BE DONE BY REGULAR HUMANS.  Personally, I don't have time to be anything OTHER than "regular" and am happy to stay in that box.:whoopie:


----------



## rrlongwell

I think you are right, this discussion, I think, is rapidly evolving into whether or not using rentals can be made a profitable enterprise within the Wyndham System.  If true, I think it is a very valuable addition to the Tugs threads.  However, if you are a potiental owner with no current interests in Wyndham Timeshares, or only have a couple of contracts, the investment, retail or wholesale for the purpose of renting them out probably makes no sense what-so-ever.  In the current market, at best you will break even and more than likely loss money.  If you are looking at enterinig or expanding your rental inventory, then this is a very interesting discussion.  I sense you are right, the ones doing it successfully (if any) are probably not sharing.  It would be great if they did so but not real likely.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Fact 1 ) VIP is better than Non VIP

Fact 2) Purchasing VIP today from Wyndham is NOT worth it, not even close to being worth any VIP benefits that you get.  

All here on TUG have done the Cost Benefit analysis.  Save your money and just buy more points resale.  You can buy far far more reale points for far less than you can ever obtain in discounts/upgrade from your overpriced VIP status paid with big $$$ and only directly available from Wyndham.

I am VIP platinum and do really like it, but I got in the back door way, with fixed weeks conversions, PIC weeks and an equity trade (to eliminate a huge SA from hurricane Wilma).   I insisted they write VIP platinum as part of the contract, which they did.  But this was 4 - 5 years ago already. I don't even know if you can get VIP that way anymore.  

Even via the back door way I had to think hard to decide if I wanted to pay for the right to have access to VIP Platinum. I nearly decided NOT to, but in the end did.  

I figure I had paid $22K 'all in' total to get VIP (OK $9K were sunk funds, original timeshare purchase before I found TUG. Can't really do much about that.  Consider it lesson learned fees).  Plus an additional $13K for purchase of 3 Wyndham fixed weeks (low resale, one unit was for only a $1), convert fixed to points, PIC other non-Wyndham weeks, equity trade to avoid huge SA and actually purchase 160K points from Wyndham.  So my only direct Wyndham purchase of 160K yielded me a VIP Platinum account.


----------



## rrlongwell

Sandy Lovell said:


> Fact 1 )



Do I understand correctly, you bought at least one fixed week (not retail), converted it to points and got VIP credit for the points?


----------



## Sandy VDH

rrlongwell said:


> Do I understand correctly, you bought at least one fixed week (not retail), converted it to points and got VIP credit for the points?



Basically yes, but timing is everything.

Here is what I did...
mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.  
mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract. 

Problem is they have changed the rules NOW.  Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules.  Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.


----------



## timeos2

Sandy Lovell said:


> Basically yes, but timing is everything.
> 
> Here is what I did...
> mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
> late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.
> mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract.
> 
> Problem is they have changed the rules NOW.  Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules.  Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.



Things were completely different in the late 90's and early 2000's when you could use inexpensive (though far from as inexpensive as today) resale points to gain access to VIP status.  No longer possible. Yet even then I couldn't make the case for e en a 10 year payback on VIP and the benefits have been gutted since that time.  Paying today, as mere humans, makes zero financial sense (but you do get to be called VIP if that matters to you).   

On, letting cat from bag, many check in lines at Wyndham now say VIP / RCI so if you come in as RCI trade or rental you are VIP! Discovered that at our last cheap RCI rental for Wyndham - saved big over using points and got VIP treatment. Not bad, worth every penny of $199/7 days! Whoops, shouldn't say that in the open I suppose....


----------



## rrlongwell

Then again, at least one (National Harbor) has a VIP Check-In, but will not wait on the VIP guest until all of the non-VIP guests are checked in, even the ones that come after you.


----------



## rrlongwell

Sandy Lovell said:


> Basically yes, but timing is everything.
> 
> Here is what I did...
> mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
> late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.
> mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract.
> 
> Problem is they have changed the rules NOW.  Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules.  Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.



The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points.  Thanks for the info.  

That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post.  If he were to lease a VIP account from someone who no longer wants it under a lease agreement where one of the terms of the agreement is that it is willed to him when the person passes on, then files a power of attorney for use of the account until the Estate is probated, would that give him his VIP status under the Wyndham rules?


----------



## learnalot

rrlongwell said:


> The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points.  Thanks for the info.
> 
> That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post.  ...



I think what made this possible was that they used to be much more generous qualifying resale for VIP - back when it was Fairfield.

On the other hand, if any loophole might exist at the moment, I imagine that discussing it at length in an open forum is probably a good way to get the loophole closed.  Some things are better suggested privately.  Besides... Ron's a smart guy.


----------



## ronparise

rrlongwell said:


> The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points.  Thanks for the info.
> 
> That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post.  If he were to lease a VIP account from someone who no longer wants it under a lease agreement where one of the terms of the agreement is that it is willed to him when the person passes on, then files a power of attorney for use of the account until the Estate is probated, would that give him his VIP status under the Wyndham rules?



I think it would...The issue for the owner/seller is:  can he trust his seller/me to pay the maintenance fees, until he dies?  I wouldnt do it so I have trouble asking someone to do it for me.


----------



## ronparise

learnalot said:


> Besides... Ron's a smart guy.



Fooled another one


----------



## Sandy VDH

rrlongwell said:


> The inherited portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligible points.  Thanks for the info.



My parents gave me their 1 week to manage/merge.  It was a fixed week NOT in points.  It was just after Fairfield took over our developer Vacation Breaks.  So the inherited part was not enough to even make VIP.

So I think it was not inherit that did it, but was timing.  Which is why I pointed out the timelines.  Things have way changed since I did that whole convergence into a single account.

Vacation Breaks (VB) is were many south FL Properties originated from (FL prop history - Santa Barbara, Sea Gardens, Royal Vista, Palm-Aire, Star Island, all VB's, VB had just signed an w/II when Fairfield came in and bought VB up.  Still legacy affiliations with that deal hanging around. II letter codes still refer to VB in star island resort code). Around the time they started to introduce VIP levels.


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## BellaWyn

*Flap & Lurk*



learnalot said:


> On the other hand, if any loophole might exist at the moment, I imagine that discussing it at length in an open forum is probably a good way to get the loophole closed.  Some things are better suggested privately.


Indeed..... and Wyndham lurks as TUGGERS continue to engage in their circular speculations.  

IF there are owners out there that have found a recently successful loophole, they are NOT going to share the method.  Resale doesn't hurt WYN as much as people think. It keeps the market stimulated enough to get new (and still somewhat uneducated) owners in and out of their properties and prime targets for the "more points" sales pitch.  Only a handful make it to TUG where some are kind enough to offer up the "reality service" almost as aggressively as Wyndham sales.  But at least we smile and wave a warm welcome and don't take money out of their pocket.


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## jebloomquist

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## ronparise

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## timeos2

ronparise said:


> Its a great strategy...and when I have 925000 points Ill see if it works for platinum...I could use the 15 guest certificates and unlimited housekeeping



I'll bet, without already knowing, that his "deal" occurred at least 4-5 years ago. Today no amount of temptation or whining gets Wyndham to count resale toward VIP.  And if they do they will rescind it shortly after the local office approves it.They will NEVER put it in writing so you have less than nothing when push comes to shove (but they have sold you XX overpriced retail points, your rescind period is over by the time they "discover the error" so you're stuck with unwanted, retail points that didn't accomplish what you wanted/intended.  

Believe me, it's been tried many times recently with zero success. Waste your time trying to get it if you want but they aren't doing anything with resale points & VIP now.


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## am1

If it was going to work you would have to purchase more than 77k.


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## jebloomquist

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## jebloomquist

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## timeos2

*Still not resale points.*



jebloomquist said:


> Actually, there is even more to the story.
> 
> I purchased the Pahio Bali Hai Villas 3 bedroom Presidential property in April 2011 on ebay for $602. It was floating weeks with a maintenance fee of $1251 per year. I wanted it to be converted to Wyndham points, 450,000 to be exact. So I said for me to purchase the 77k at Wyndham Sedona, Wyndham had to convert the weeks to points. This is actually what I wanted in the first place.
> 
> When I did this, the points applied to VIP status. I didn't like the way that Wyndham was to start the maintenance monthly immediately since the full year had already been paid, so I insisted that they not do this. Instead, they said that they would throw in a free week in 2012 at Wyndham Sedona. I said that it had to be a 2 bedroom. They also threw in the bonus 77k to be used in 2 years. This along with my previous purchase and its bonus points are enough for VIP Platinum status for a year. It will revert to VIP Gold in 2013.
> 
> You may not believe this, but it is true.
> 
> Jim



Ah - technically you did not buy resale POINTS - you bought a week & had it converted, at a good price, to retail points. Interesting approach & if it will be taken regularly that is one way to get to VIP at a lower than "normal" expense and actually gives some value to otherwise usually worthless weeks based Wyndham units (with the exception of fixed, prime weeks -I know).  On the other hand you'll pay at least $3-$4K to convert ANY week to points, so unless you find one really cheap that is worth a decent amount of points,  plus the retail points you'd still have to buy and, as usual, you're paying more to be VIP than to just buy resale points for the extremely low price they sell for. 

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: This is NOT a resale points purchase being used to get VIP as, again, that is NOT allowed now. No known exceptions. 

Still, interesting appraoch if for some strange reason you wanted to pay upfront money to be VIP - and the outside chance someday you'll breakeven on it or maybe make $20.  Unlikely but if you absolutely have to have it at any cost .....


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## ronparise

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## timeos2

ronparise said:


> So John..If I convert my floating weeks to points. those points will be qualified VIP points...even if the weeks themselves were bought on the secondary market??
> 
> Is this a "deal" that has to be negotiated with the purchase of  new developer points. or can it stand alone
> 
> I understand that the conversion is about $2300 for the first week and under $1000 for each additional week converted at the same time..
> 
> And Jim
> 
> did you have to pay a conversion fee, plus the $12000 for the 77k points...or just the $12000?



I'll admit I hadn't heard of anyone doing that prior to this post but I do know that Wyndham ideally wants every week to be in points - not fixed weeks of the 90's ilk - so they have always treated conversions of fixed weeks to points as a retail purchase with all benefits that offers. Still, $12K for maybe $200 worth of resale points - if that - will take a miracle to ever even break even.  It still isn't any type of good deal but it is a way, for anyone that simply must get the thrill of be VIP, to get there while involving a resale. Just not a POINTS resale.  I still wouldn't do at even half that cost - at 1/4 I'd be tempted.  Never happen though. 

It is still spending money upfront for a possible return 20-30 or more years from now if all else stays as is (and it is guaranteed, unlike VIP, that things WILL change over that time). And it will NOT be to the benefit of the VIP owner. That is an absolute, iron clad guarantee you can bank on. VIP unfortunately you cannot bank on for anything beyond a month or two from now. Paying to get it remains a study in good money spent in a poor manner.


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## BellaWyn

timeos2 said:


> Ah - technically you did not buy resale POINTS .....



Not understanding why the "technicality" makes a difference.  What Jim is saying is that he managed to get to VIP without making a full developer purchase for the total volume of points, only a small percentage of the points.  

Ron, since you're asking about how Jim did his numbers, is there a $$ price-point that makes VIP worth the buy in for you?  If so, why? (please don't respond to this unless it's in PM)

Also, wouldn't it be somewhat prudent for you and Jim to take the discussion to a more private place?  The more you wave the flag in WYN's face, the higher the likelihood they will yank it out from under you.  Tread carefully in this public forum.  WYN lurks more than you realize.


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## timeos2

BellaWyn said:


> Not understanding why the "technicality" makes a difference.  What Jim is saying is that he managed to get to VIP without making a full developer purchase for the total volume of points, only a small percentage of the points.
> 
> Ron, since you're asking about how Jim did his numbers, is there a $$ price-point that makes VIP worth the buy in for you?  If so, why? (please don't respond to this unless it's in PM)
> 
> Also, wouldn't it be somewhat prudent for you and Jim to take the discussion to a more private place?  The more you wave the flag in WYN's face, the higher the likelihood they will yank it out from under you.  Tread carefully in this public forum.  WYN lurks more than you realize.



It's a technicality because the question posted is can you use resale points today to get VIP. The correct answer is NO - the example was a resale week then converted, as part of an expensive retail package, to a VIP account. It was not in anyway or form a resale purchase of points being converted to a qualified VIP points account. Again, don't want the uninformed newbie thinking it had been done recently (resale points to VIP) it HAS NOT. They are immovable on that.  

Oh, they do read the forums but you can be sure they already know the "tricks" - they choose to allow them - we're not fooling them in anyway (but they sure are fooling far too many buyers that fall for the VIP as a value nonsense at today's buy-in prices). Discussing it here isn't giving anything away they don't already know.


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## BellaWyn

timeos2 said:


> ....the question posted is can you use resale points today to get VIP.


Interesting.  For some reason I misunderstood the question to be:

"what is the best price anyone has seen on new Wyndham points with the discount? "

....  and it has subsequently EVOLVED into the VIP question (musing, argument, discussion, ranting, information-gathering, etc).

Also, while Wyndham may already be privy to the "tricks" I agree they are certainly not fooled.  What they don't know, until a couple of owners start chatting each other up about in a highly public forum, is who specifically is attempting to navigate the deal to their advantage. * I agree with Pam!*  If you're going to attempt a short-cut to VIP you run the risk of WYN pulling it out from under you the more you publicize it!  To paraphrase another frequent poster in this forum that recently shared the same good advice she wisely told me "shut up and stop talking about it!"

I'm just "sharing forward" .....


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## ronparise

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## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> This whole thread gives me something to talk about at my next owner update



 Nice....


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## rrlongwell

89 dollars if done in conjuntion with a new purchase as of last year for converting a weeks to points.


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## ronparise

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## learnalot

ronparise said:


> So my 8 fixed weeks (valued at 126000) at $89 each,
> plus a 77000 purchase at about another $12000
> added to my existing 575k points Im up to 1.6mm
> 
> Do I have that right??



Ron,

I don't know about the $89 figures.  As to the rest, I would say that this is something that SALES (commissioned, remember?) might write up but that corporate COULD reject (or overturn on further review).  There is historical precedent for stripping of VIP status that was obtained partially using resale.  I would say that the higher the publicity on the transaction, the more scrutiny might be brought to bear.  And I feel pretty confident that even the Wyndham corporate folks would not have too much trouble determining your identity...  Just saying...


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## bnoble

In the past, conversion of fixed weeks was treated as developer points, period.  I've since heard rumblings (that may or may not be true) that the underlying fixed week must be an original developer purchase, and not itself a resale.  Your mileage may vary.


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## ronparise

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## BellaWyn

ronparise said:


> I'm afraid that If i was to get Platinum with this strategy it wouldnt be permanent. I might lose my vip status and a salesman lose their job


The likelihood of you loosing your Plat VIP status is higher than the salesman loosing his job. WYN will scrutinize Plat a LOT harder than other levels of VIP.
_
Aren't we ready yet to let this thread die....  just saying._


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## rrlongwell

Absolutly agree with the earlier post that Wyndham probably already knows of what the items being discussed on Tugs,  they probably leave the loopholes for one of two reasons.  The first being it benifits the Wyndham Family of Corporations overall or second, the underlying contracts, etc.  Require them to exist.  One sales presentation that I was at made a public presentation to old Fairfield owners saying that it was a one time offer to buy out their underlying deeds because Wyndham signed agreements when they took Fairfield that gives the holders of those deeds rights over and above what Wyndham gives under Club Wyndham Access and under newer contracts sold by or through Wyndham.  The emphis in a number of threads to withold information only serves to limit the rights of owners, VIP or resale, that simply do not know of what rights they may have in the purchasing of the old Fairfield contracts.


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## rrlongwell

I have just read the Members Directory for 2011 2012.  On page 287 towards the bottom of the right hand column, it lists a string of tracts that can be the VIP eligable points.  One of this is ... or through PIC conversions count towards VIP status.  The next paragraph then indicates that ownership interests bought from privete indivuals or re-sale companies do not count towards VIP status.  The post that talks of a possable different tract for thoughs resale contracts bought directly from Wyndham or its affilates and thoughs bought from privete indivuals or re-sale companies may very well be a point well taken.  This wording is very interesting in that at one sales presentation, a major sales point was that Wyndham would probably be entering the re-sale market shortly.  This was very credable to me because I have bought prior owned contracts from Wyndham before I heard this is a sales pitch.  By creating a two tier re-sale market (which this wording makes possable) Wyndham would have one heck of an advantage.  Buy re-sale through a re-sale company - no VIP - Buy re-sale through Wyndham - VIP Status included.  I can see the sales pitch coming if Wyndham does expand their presence in the re-sale market.  This would be very close to the sales pitch for retail coming from Shawnee Mountain.  Their pitch is the sales person comparing a retail purchase to a re-sale purchase in a pro-active manner, that asks the customer why would a re-sale customer get VIP Benifits when these benifits are paid for directly to Wyndham.


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## jebloomquist

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## bamasteve

rrlongwell said:


> Then again, at least one (National Harbor) has a VIP Check-In, but will not wait on the VIP guest until all of the non-VIP guests are checked in, even the ones that come after you.



Hah.  I never found the VIP checkin at National Harbor to be anything special.  I'm VIP Gold.  They have some sign on the corner of the checkin desk as if it's VIP - but there really was no seperate line.  I didn't make a fuss about it.

In Branson and Myrtle Beach Ocean Blvd - there were seperate lines for VIP and I received priority service.  It was a nice little perk.


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## barry8888

Explorer7 said:


> By no means will everyone check avail as often as I do nor do most people have the flexibility to travel that my wife and I enjoy but for those who do I think one of the top benefits is the upgrade to the next available highest unit
> So far this year I have had 17  less than 1 week get aways all at 65% of the point value and upgraded about 90 percent of my reservations that have included a  35% discounted  1br at National Harbor upgraded to a 4br Presidential unit.
> 
> This summer two 3br's upgraded from 1br’s at Gov Green and a studio upgraded to a 2br presidential at Panama City. By watching the last minute cancelations at National Harbor around the 4th of July I snagged a 3br for a discounted 1br for the 3rd and 4th of July.
> 
> Yes the benefit can go away any day and I doubt that most people will work as hard as I do to dig in and get these things but from speaking to others as I travel I have encountered others that do.
> 
> Most of the time with married couples "The nerd" which is me in my marriage is the one that enjoys figuring out and taking the time to work the system. The "free spirit" which is my wife enjoys the ride by helping to choose destinations, however she does not know how to get deals on the Wyndham site or stay on top of the changes and "press the envelope" to stay on top. When I meet people while traveling  the Wyndham resorts I fine one partner in the marriage knows everything I do and the other knows nothing and does not want to.
> 
> This is not a product for a “free spirit” who just wants a fun ride without the work of fully understanding the product better than the sales person and pressing the envelop to figure out how to get great deals …
> 
> Most often I am reluctant to chime in when others are warning about VIP benefits because I really don't think most new buyers will ever do what it takes to make it pay and of course the rules can change at any time. I also rarely hear about the upgrades that likely only the savviest VIP’s are taking advantage of and rarely talk about, I should probably keep my mouth shut too.
> 
> One thing that keeps me sober is thinking about those who purchased Wyndham points expecting to get 2br’s from their 28K RCI deposits which no longer works.  Like the 28K upgrades that went away for RCI deposits made after Jan 11 the huge upgrades and discounts that I enjoy can go away too. But for now they are great and my family is enjoying to the max!
> 
> I hope I balanced the benefits with the risk well enough for someone to make a well informed decision during their hopefully extensive research.


Dear Ira,
I am just getting into the research part of my wyndham TS. What advice can you give someone regarding resources to fully take advantage of points/benefits? Are there any webinars or videos available on this?

Thanks

Barry


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## vacationhopeful

FYI .....  This is almost a 3 year old thread ....


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## Explorer7

barry8888 said:


> Dear Ira,
> I am just getting into the research part of my wyndham TS. What advice can you give someone regarding resources to fully take advantage of points/benefits? Are there any webinars or videos available on this?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Barry


 Hi Barry, yes there are webinars on the Wyndham website but I have never participated in one. Most of what I have learned is by consistently reading the posts on this forum and by trial and error. What type of ownership do you have?


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