# Changes in 2021 Destination Points per Night



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 2, 2020)

Just kicking the tires on some early 2021 DP reservations and it looks like MVC has changed some point pricing.  Just looked at Hilton Head area for now, but point costs per week change weekly vs. current structure where it's January, then Feb/March, then April/May, then summer, etc. tier pricing.  Spot-checked a couple of Orlando resorts and didn't see the change.  I'm accounting for my "over 12 month" premium.


----------



## Fasttr (Jan 2, 2020)

Hopefully our TUG pal @StevenTing can work his magic and compile a full PDF of all the point charts for 2021 as he has done in the past.  Having that will make comparisons across the resorts much easier.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

The web site doesn't even have the 2021 charts posted yet under their "Helpful Tools" section - just 2019 (now useless) and 2020.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> The web site doesn't even have the 2021 charts posted yet under their "Helpful Tools" section - just 2019 (now useless) and 2020.


Interesting. Do they often fluctuate? Vistana point chart is fixed. Within 3 seasons. I understand DC points varies much more based on time of year? Hope the star options chart doesn’t change


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> The web site doesn't even have the 2021 charts posted yet under their "Helpful Tools" section - just 2019 (now useless) and 2020.


I noted that as well.  

I was checking through the reservation section, which is a pain in the neck to compare resorts for a specific date range.


----------



## StevenTing (Jan 2, 2020)

As soon as I see 2021 charts available, I'll get a combined PDF created.  I'll see if Owner Services has any info as well.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> Just kicking the tires on some early 2021 DP reservations and it looks like MVC has changed some point pricing.  Just looked at Hilton Head area for now, but point costs per week change weekly vs. current structure where it's January, then Feb/March, then April/May, then summer, etc. tier pricing.  Spot-checked a couple of Orlando resorts and didn't see the change.  I'm accounting for my "over 12 month" premium.


I thought the purchase of points locked in my cost per night in points, not MF, as of the date I purchased them. So....for example if the cost per night in points at a resort was 400 at the time of purchase it would always be 400 per night. Other wise...whats the point in pwning points?

Am I wrong?


----------



## Pamplemousse (Jan 2, 2020)

Yes you are wrong.
Marriott can change the number of points per night if they choose.  The points charts are universal. There are not separate points charts depending on when you buy.

The point in buying points is Marriott no longer sells weeks only so unless you want to buy a resale and exchange on II or rent it or such your new purchase is points.
The point in owning points is flexibility in booking and stay length and access to newer/ other resorts that don’t have weeks owners to deposit into II and lower fees associated with exchanging among other things.


----------



## bazzap (Jan 2, 2020)

Pamplemousse said:


> Yes you are wrong.
> Marriott can change the number of points per night if they choose.  The points charts are universal.


The total number of Points required for the full year for each resort should be unchanged, and I believe it has been since the Points programme was launched.
MVC have increased the number of Points required during the year, for example weekends, national holidays, other peak periods...but these increases have been balanced by decreases at other times of the year.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

The whole pitch to buying time shares or points was to lock in your vacation costs. As the price of hotels rooms rise at the same reosrt mine won't. I paid $40,000 for the points and $2,500 a year for that. Whats the point then of owning If MF go up and the cost of renting a room goes up...what have I purchased? In fact I asked that exact same question to the sales rep. If points per night increase, my costs are locked in as of the year I purchased. The answer was ...that's the reason you purchase them.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> The whole pitch to buying time shares or points was to lock in your vacation costs. As the price of hotels rooms rise at the same reosrt mine won't. I paid $40,000 for the points and $2,500 a year for that. Whats the point then of owning If MF go up and the cost of renting a room goes up...what have I purchased? In fact I asked that exact same question to the sales rep. If points per night increase, my costs are locked in as of the year I purchased. The answer was ...that's the reason you purchase them.



Just for clarification - your up front purchase cost IS fixed, of course, as it is a one time cost. The points required for a given resort over a year is also fixed, but Marriott can, and does, make adjustments within the year. So, some weeks/days may go up in points, but those increases will be offset by decreases elsewhere on the annual points schedule. So, while any given night might be subject to increase, the annual points at a resort are indeed fixed.

The only thing that is not fixed is the annual maintenance fee, and it is totally unrealistic to expect that to always be what it was when you bought. The points maintenance fee is your share of the cost of operating the resorts in the MVC system. Over time, costs will go up, and so will your fees. How else could it work? If maintenance fees were fixed, how would increasing costs be recouped?


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Just for clarification - your up front purchase cost IS fixed, of course, as it is a one time cost. The points required for a given resort over a year is also fixed, but Marriott can, and does, make adjustments within the year. *So, some weeks/days may go up in points, but those increases will be offset by decreases elsewhere on the annual points schedule*. So, while any given night might be subject to increase, the annual points at a resort are indeed fixed.
> 
> The only thing that is not fixed is the annual maintenance fee, and it is totally unrealistic to expect that to always be what it was when you bought. The points maintenance fee is your share of the cost of operating the resorts in the MVC system. Over time, costs will go up, and so will your fees. How else could it work? If maintenance fees were fixed, how would increasing costs be recouped?



In my admittedly very small sample of the HHI resorts January 2021, that was what I saw.  Early January is less points than 2020 while the end of January is more.  I wonder if they're being a little more micro in analyzing demand to the week vs. season as before.

In any case, it would have been nice to know ahead of time.  Oh, and maybe publish some points charts!


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.

For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?


----------



## Superchief (Jan 2, 2020)

I have noticed an increase in the point requirements for 1BR and studio reservations. Previously, the total combined cost for reserving each individually was equal to reserving the full 2BR. Now, many resorts are charging a premium for the individual units. I believe the total annual points for the full villas cannot change, but premiums can now be charged for locked off components. I have also noticed some changes in the seasons in Phoenix and Hilton Head.


----------



## Fasttr (Jan 2, 2020)

To help clarify ability to change.... from the Trust Docs....

Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or
decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to
Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a
corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the
same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year
to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of
“Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a
result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar
permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however,
that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another
specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any
modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.


----------



## Pamplemousse (Jan 2, 2020)

As I look at it the increase in maintenance fees is akin to the rising room rental rate.  Yes, time marches on- purchase doesn’t really fight inflation. But it is less expensive than retail for sure.
I think I sort of misinterpreted your first post in that I was thinking you were saying we all had personal points charts based on our points purchase price. Sorry I said you were wrong M.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.
> 
> For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?



Yes. It is spelled out specifically in the Program Docs. See the text posted by @Fasttr above.


----------



## davidvel (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.
> 
> For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?


Yes.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 2, 2020)

IMO...Such devaluations are yet another reason not to buy pure points trusts from any TS provider. IMO deeded with enrollment better because you will always have your deeded week. Renting points or a week looking increasingly attractive. Too many opportunities for devaluation otherwise.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...Such devaluations are yet another reason not to buy pure points trusts from any TS provider. IMO deeded with enrollment better because you will always have your deeded week.



Unless the buyer is willing to accept the occasional change or devaluation in exchange for the greater options and flexibility offered by a points product when compared to a deeded week. There's no question that buying an enrolled deeded week is superior, since you will always have the deeded usage as a fall-back, but in systems like MVC where you can't buy an enrolled deeded week, if you want access to their resorts with the flexibility of points, buying the Trust product may be your only option.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Jan 2, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...Such devaluations are yet another reason not to buy pure points trusts from any TS provider. IMO deeded with enrollment better because you will always have your deeded week. Renting points or a week looking increasingly attractive. Too many opportunities for devaluation otherwise.



But as always, depends on your usage! I don't want 7 day vacations. For example, Sat and Sun, I'll be in Branson via points. In Feb, I'll be at DSV for 12 nights not 14, etc. i have seen no devaluations since I originally got into the system. Ymmv.

For me, Branson works great for my road trips, it's around where I would stay in a hotel on a longer trip anywhere NE. It cost me 155 points for 2 weekend nights. At 60 cents per mf, that's just over $90 or $45 per night. Hotel in Indianapolis was close to $200/nt. Hotel in Effingham IL was $100/nt.

Had it been weekday nights, cost is 100 points for 2 night in 1br, or, about $30/night.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Unless the buyer is willing to accept the occasional change or devaluation in exchange for the greater options and flexibility offered by a points product when compared to a deeded week. There's no question that buying an enrolled deeded week is superior, since you will always have the deeded usage as a fall-back, but in systems like MVC where you can't buy an enrolled deeded week, if you want access to their resorts with the flexibility of points, buying the Trust product may be your only option.


That's why I am glad we own mandatory Vistana. With Staroptions we get the best of both worlds.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

If this is so...it is 180 degrees from what I was explicitly told. So....if I want to go skiing in Vail.....the price of the ski week can rise to anything they think they can get as long as they decrease the price of whats called mud season when no one wants to go to Vail?


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> If this is so...it is 180 degrees from what I was explicitly told. So....if I want to go skiing in Vail.....the price of the ski week can rise to anything they think they can get as long as they decrease the price of whats called mud season when no one wants to go to Vail?



But it has always been spelled out in the Program Docs exactly as @Fasttr posted. That has been the case since the inception of the points system almost 10 years ago. The fact that they must decrease points elsewhere on the chart does place some practical bounds on how much any given night can change, but change it they certainly can. I believe most of the changes we've seen over the years have been fairly modest, and have not been changes that drastically alter the overall chart.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> But it has always been spelled out in the Program Docs exactly as @Fasttr posted. That has been the case since the inception of the points system almost 10 years ago. The fact that they must decrease points elsewhere on the chart does place some practical bounds on how much any given night can change, but change it they certainly can. I believe most of the changes we've seen over the years have been fairly modest, and have not been changes that drastically alter the overall chart.



Indeed! People love to post the word devaluation but IMHO, completely blown out of proportion. Instead of throwing the word out, please provide specific examples. There will always be some fine tuning. And there was at least one mistake made early on.


----------



## Mr. Vker (Jan 2, 2020)

This was my specific concern about MVC converting to points. They were just creating a currency with which they can set prices. We never purchased points-just enrolled our weeks-and love the flexibility when we want to use points. But, I'd hate to buy a set of points that can get a week at Aruba Surf Club today in February but cannot in three years. With weeks, that wasn't a concern.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

Thank you everyone for this awakening! What is being described is completely different than what was sold to me. Even after asking the explicit question. Did I examine "page 438 subsection b" of the offering documents. No. But I expect a question, once asked, to be answered in a forthright manner.

The more I learn about MVC the more disillusioned I become. This is a fraud. There is no other way to explain it. The only reason I purchased $45,000 worth of points was because it was explained to me that I would forever pay the same amount in points per night. Even if transferred to my children. I had this exact conversation with two different sales reps. This was the major selling point. Otherwise there is no other plausible reason for giving them $45,000. I knew the maintenance fees would rise, but not the per night charges. Whatever the point chart was in 2015 when I bought..I was told would be my forever costs.  No one ever intimated that the price for good weeks will rise but MVC will compensate for that by decreasing the cost of undesirable weeks. 

$45,000 doesn't change my life, but I feel like a moron for falling for this. In all of my business years negotiating contracts and everything else, I have NEVER been lied to like I have been in this relationship.  Shame on Marriott Vacation Club for perpetrating this fraud...but the shame is really on me for falling for it.


----------



## pchung6 (Jan 2, 2020)

This is the main reason I stick to my mandatory Vistana Staroptions holdings. You own the best of two worlds in points and week. Don't get me wrong that I still love Marriott deeded weeks, but will never consider DC points.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> Thank you everyone for this awakening! What is being described is completely different than what was sold to me. Even after asking the explicit question. Did I examine "page 438 subsection b" of the offering documents. No. But I expect a question, once asked, to be answered in a forthright manner.
> 
> The more I learn about MVC the more disillusioned I become. This is a fraud. There is no other way to explain it. The only reason I purchased $45,000 worth of points was because it was explained to me that I would forever pay the same amount in points per night. Even if transferred to my children. I had this exact conversation with two different sales reps. This was the major selling point. Otherwise there is no other plausible reason for giving them $45,000. I knew the maintenance fees would rise, but not the per night charges. Whatever the point chart was in 2015 when I bought..I was told would be my forever costs.  No one ever intimated that the price for good weeks will rise but MVC will compensate for that by decreasing the cost of undesirable weeks.
> 
> $45,000 doesn't change my life, but I feel like a moron for falling for this. In all of my business years negotiating contracts and everything else, I have NEVER been lied to like I have been in this relationship.  Shame on Marriott Vacation Club for perpetrating this fraud...but the shame is really on me for falling for it.



As @Steve Fatula said above, try not to overreact to the possibility of changes to the points schedule. In ten years, the changes have been very limited and very modest. More what I would call tweaks and fine tuning, not major reshuffling. From a practical standpoint, the chart has been basically static for all intents and purposes. Could they make larger changes than they have to date? - sure they could, but at least up to now the basic premise of what you were sold is still intact.


----------



## Fasttr (Jan 2, 2020)

2011 Points Chart is attached below.  

Here is link to the 2020 chart.  https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2020.pdf

Compare and contrast....you will likely agree, very little has changed.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 2, 2020)

I don't want to keep beating this to death.

I have also experienced the fact that the points values have not changed since I purchased. I was reacting to the possibility mentioned on this thread that they could change when I was told they would never.

End of story on this.

Thank you all for your patience.


----------



## csalter2 (Jan 2, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> year
> to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of
> “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a


----------



## Superchief (Jan 2, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> 2011 Points Chart is attached below.
> 
> Here is link to the 2020 chart.  https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2020.pdf
> 
> Compare and contrast....you will likely agree, very little has changed.


I don't think any increases have occurred to the overall point requirements for the highest seasons. Although there have been changes for the specific nights within a given week, I'm not aware of any total weekly point requirements within a season. I would be concerned if this actually happened.


----------



## dansimms (Jan 2, 2020)

There are some nice bargains point wise, if you choose the lower demand days in certain holiday season weeks.  For example, I grab the same 3 nights at the NYC Pulse, just before a Christmas surcharge takes effect later in the week. The points required on the days I check out are multiple times greater than what I was charged.  It is a nice way to work the system.  Look for the highest demand nights and then side step them, such as New Years Eve, Presidents' week days, and when schools are out, like summer or Easter.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 2, 2020)

I am still interested to hear what the specific change is that the OP is referencing. What went up in points? Specific resort, specific weeks, difference in amount of points please.


----------



## StevenTing (Jan 2, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I don't want to keep beating this to death.
> 
> I have also experienced the fact that the points values have not changed since I purchased. I was reacting to the possibility mentioned on this thread that they could change when I was told they would never.
> 
> ...



think of it this way. Usually Friday and Saturday cost the most points. But if Christmas lands on Wednesday, like it did this year, they will make Tuesday and Wednesday cost more points but then in turn reduce the cost of Friday and Saturday. However, I’d you book the whole week, it will still cost the same amount of points as another week in the same season.

same things go for holidays. The shift in points are during the week and not for a whole season.


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 3, 2020)

We like the model of weekend costing more as we get to save a few points staying for 12 or 10 nights as opposed to 2 full weeks.  For this year, we have booked 12 nights in Jan in Palm Desert, 10 nights in April at Ko Olina and 10 nights at Newport Coast in Sept.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 3, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I am still interested to hear what the specific change is that the OP is referencing. What went up in points? Specific resort, specific weeks, difference in amount of points please.



From post #12 above:
"In my admittedly very small sample of the HHI resorts January 2021, that was what I saw.  Early January is less points than 2020 while the end of January is more."

Sample:  Harbour Point 2 BR

2020 Week 1 Sat check-in:  400 DC points
2021 Week 1 Sat check-in:  370 DC points

2020 Week 3 Sat check-in:  400 DC points
2021 Week 3 Sat check-in:  400 DC points

2020 Week 4 Sat check-in:  400 DC points
2021 Week 4 Sat check-in:  470 DC points

Similar experience across all of the HHI resorts where I can see availability.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 3, 2020)

Oh, and wasn't trying to stir up a riot here, just noting what I saw when skimming HHI in January 2021.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> From post #12 above:
> "In my admittedly very small sample of the HHI resorts January 2021, that was what I saw.  Early January is less points than 2020 while the end of January is more."
> 
> Sample:  Harbour Point 2 BR
> ...


So this illustrates my point exactly. Lets say I visited this HH resort on week 4 in 2015 and loved it. I was lured into a presentation where I was convinced to purchase destination points and told that I could visit the same resort at the same time of year (week)forever and the cost would never go up. Also, the points would give me some flexibility to visit other resorts also at the same price as the time I purchased. This is almost my scenario exactly, except not HH.

Now I am told that the same week I paid 400 points for is now 470 points. In my math that is a slightly more than 15% increase in the price of my stay. That is a devaluation of the points I purchased, and  directly contradicts the whole purpose of buying the points. The $45,000 entry fee was sold as vacations would never cost more than the day I purchased. ( Not including MF) If MVC can raise the points needed at their will, what is the difference of just paying as you go at whatever rate prevails at the time of your visit, and saving the $45,000? Someone explain to me then the value of purchasing points, except to fall prey to fraud?


----------



## bazzap (Jan 3, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> So this illustrates my point exactly. Lets say I visited this HH resort on week 4 in 2015 and loved it. I was lured into a presentation where I was convinced to purchase destination points and told that I could visit the same resort at the same time of year (week)forever and the cost would never go up. Also, the points would give me some flexibility to visit other resorts also at the same price as the time I purchased. This is almost my scenario exactly, except not HH.
> 
> Now I am told that the same week I paid 400 points for is now 470 points. In my math that is a slightly more than 15% increase in the price of my stay. That is a devaluation of the points I purchased, and  directly contradicts the whole purpose of buying the points. The $45,000 entry fee was sold as vacations would never cost more than the day I purchased. ( Not including MF) If MVC can raise the points needed at their will, what is the difference of just paying as you go at whatever rate prevails at the time of your visit, and saving the $45,000? Someone explain to me then the value of purchasing points, except to fall prey to fraud?


You should never be told that you could visit the same resort at the same time of year (week) forever and the cost would never go up.
You should be told that the total number of Points for the year would never go up, but that there may be adjustments during the course of the year with some dates/periods requiring more Points and other dates/periods coming down to maintain the fixed total.
Whilst this might not suit everyone, it may well be preferable for others and it is certainly neither a devaluation nor a fraud.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

I can state without equivocation, had I been told what you described I would never have laid out $45,000. Why would I give a hoot about how many points it takes for the year when all I am interested in is when I want to go and the cost of that. This can be twisted with a hundred different explanations. That's not what was sold....and yes, if the same week costs me 15% more, my points are devalued.  And yes....that does make it fraud.


----------



## Dean (Jan 3, 2020)

Superchief said:


> I have noticed an increase in the point requirements for 1BR and studio reservations. Previously, the total combined cost for reserving each individually was equal to reserving the full 2BR. Now, many resorts are charging a premium for the individual units. I believe the total annual points for the full villas cannot change, but premiums can now be charged for locked off components. I have also noticed some changes in the seasons in Phoenix and Hilton Head.


I don't think the requirement to balance for the year applies to the lockout's so resorts with no dedicated smaller units could have significant changes in those unit requirements. 


mbstn6254 said:


> If this is so...it is 180 degrees from what I was explicitly told. So....if I want to go skiing in Vail.....the price of the ski week can rise to anything they think they can get as long as they decrease the price of whats called mud season when no one wants to go to Vail?


For others reading the take home message is things change, verbal representations are not binding and one needs to understand the legal documents of what they are signing up for. 

I suspect the reason for the higher points is that Jan 2 is in a higher bracket than Jan 3 and on and Sat 2021 is Jan 2.


----------



## csalter2 (Jan 3, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> So this illustrates my point exactly. Lets say I visited this HH resort on week 4 in 2015 and loved it. I was lured into a presentation where I was convinced to purchase destination points and told that I could visit the same resort at the same time of year (week)forever and the cost would never go up. Also, the points would give me some flexibility to visit other resorts also at the same price as the time I purchased. This is almost my scenario exactly, except not HH.
> 
> Now I am told that the same week I paid 400 points for is now 470 points. In my math that is a slightly more than 15% increase in the price of my stay. That is a devaluation of the points I purchased, and  directly contradicts the whole purpose of buying the points. The $45,000 entry fee was sold as vacations would never cost more than the day I purchased. ( Not including MF) If MVC can raise the points needed at their will, what is the difference of just paying as you go at whatever rate prevails at the time of your visit, and saving the $45,000? Someone explain to me then the value of purchasing points, except to fall prey to fraud?



First of all, no one should have told you the word NEVER. There is no such thing as never.  Secondly, these alterations of dates usually revolve around holiday weeks.  For example, New Year’s, Christmas, President’s Day, Independence Day are prime high demand weeks that are usually more points at a resort than usual for certain days.  The reason it will vary some years because the calendar changes. July 4th can fall on any day of the week so the number of points will vary in a particular year.  Those alterations are pointed out each year on the points requirement chart.  This is the exception for some holiday weeks and not the normal weeks.  Marriott does not change the points requirements for units except as noted.  The increase is not in the points required, the increase is in the annual maintenance fee charges. They go up. 

This is common with points timeshares. I have this very same situation with my Diamond Resorts timeshare.  I have had that one for over 20 years and the points requirements for the units have NEVER changed. 

Also, this is covered in your contract and paperwork that you signed entering the DC program.

One last thing, your ownership is not fraud.  You can actually stay in the Marriott resorts with these points.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 3, 2020)

I have experienced what the OP has described in a number of sales pitches at hotel branded timeshares. They ask about where you would like to vacation and then run some horrendous calculation as to what that would cost using hotels over the next 20 years. They argue that using timeshares is cheaper because they talk about today's costs as if they remain static.

I have also heard Tuggers reference vacation 401ks by reps.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

To me...making representations that you know aren't true in order to secure a sale is fraud. I am not a lawyer, just a person who learned a lesson with regard to doing business with MVC.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have experienced what the OP has described in a number of sales pitches at hotel branded timeshares. They ask about where you would like to vacation and then run some horrendous calculation as to what that would cost using hitels over the next 20 years. They argue that using timeshares is cheaper because they talk about today's costs as if they remain static.
> 
> I have also heard Tuggers reference vacation 401ks by reps.


Exactly....according to their pitch that's the whole reason for the sale.  No one ever explained this notion that the points per year will stay the same by decreasing the cost for weeks that are undesirable and increasing the cost for weeks weeks that are.


----------



## Dean (Jan 3, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have experienced what the OP has described in a number of sales pitches at hotel branded timeshares. They ask about where you would like to vacation and then run some horrendous calculation as to what that would cost using hitels over the next 20 years. They argue that using timeshares is cheaper because they talk about today's costs as if they remain static.
> 
> I have also heard Tuggers reference vacation 401ks by reps.


My point in this area is it doesn't matter what they tell you.  What matters is what's in the paperwork.  Even when what they say is completely accurate sometimes people hear or interpret things differently.  Specific to this area I think it's unlikely anyone would say the points can't be reallocated if specifically asked though I could see sales not understanding this themselves.  The situation of specifically lying about it can happen but is less likely for MVC.


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have experienced what the OP has described in a number of sales pitches at hotel branded timeshares. They ask about where you would like to vacation and then run some horrendous calculation as to what that would cost using hitels over the next 20 years. They argue that using timeshares is cheaper because they talk about today's costs as if they remain static.
> 
> I have also heard Tuggers reference vacation 401ks by reps.


The reps called it a 401v.....v for vacation.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 3, 2020)

Superchief said:


> I have noticed an increase in the point requirements for 1BR and studio reservations. Previously, the total combined cost for reserving each individually was equal to reserving the full 2BR. Now, many resorts are charging a premium for the individual units. I believe the total annual points for the full villas cannot change, but premiums can now be charged for locked off components. I have also noticed some changes in the seasons in Phoenix and Hilton Head.


I don't think the individual portions of lock off units ever equaled what the full unit cost. There has always been a premium to book the individual units compared to the full unit. This was well discussed back in 2010 when Marriott released the DC program. however, I do agree that they have increased the point requirements for the individual units. It was documented that they did this at Ko'Olina a number of years ago. They didn't increase the cost of the 2BR units, but they did increase the point requirements of the individual studio and 1BR portions.


----------



## csalter2 (Jan 3, 2020)

Dean said:


> My point in this area is it doesn't matter what they tell you.  What matters is what's in the paperwork.  Even when what they say is completely accurate sometimes people hear or interpret things differently.



With this, I wholeheartedly agree.  People don’t read what they have signed and then complain.  Once you sign, you are responsible for your purchase. You also have a 5 day rescission period to review the contract and to review the rules and policies.  

However Dean, I must admit that even Marriott salespeople outright lie.  Think about it.  They say things like your elected points from your week is not as viable as the Destination trust points.  Some have been on the brink of lying with the whole sale of Vistana, Westin, etc. trying to entice people to buy points now. They definitely can mislead you like the salesman who told me this summer that I needed to buy a Custom House week because my portfolio needed more Bonvoy Points. Ha Ha Ha


----------



## mbstn6254 (Jan 3, 2020)

Dean said:


> My point in this area is it doesn't matter what they tell you.  What matters is what's in the paperwork.  Even when what they say is completely accurate sometimes people hear or interpret things differently.  Specific to this area I think it's unlikely anyone would say the points can't be reallocated if specifically asked though I could see sales not understanding this themselves.  The situation of specifically lying about it can happen but is less likely for MVC.


I don't mean to hog the conversation, and maybe I drew three of the most dishonest reps Marriott has ever hired, but during the presentation, when I asked about how get out of this if I wanted to  it was told to me that *MVC would buy back my points at the prevailing retail cost minus a bunch of fees to equal about 50% of the price of points. So if the price per point was $14 I would net about $7. *The intimation being that as the price for points keep rising in a few years time I could recoup more than the 50% of my purchase. I asked if that was in writing. He pulled out an I Pad and showed me what purportedly was a digital version of the offering documents that said exactly what he described. I later discovered that was not the case at all. Out of curiosity, because so much of the presentation turned out to be false, I made in inquiry to have MVC buy back my points. The offer MVC made to me was $1.67 per point. There were other representations regarding VIP treatment and other things that also turned out false. This group in Orlando even told me they were not even salespeople but customer service managers looking to make sure I was satisfied with my original purpose. So out of 3 major benefits to me purchasing points...all were false. The biggest one being the one I just discovered. The point values to the resorts can be changed. 

So as not be deemed just a crank, my wife and I have enjoyed the vacations we have taken with MVC. The places are OK the staffs are trained well and are pleasant. But this doesn't take away the fact that representations made to secure the sale were false...and I believe knowingly so.


----------



## bazzap (Jan 3, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I can state without equivocation, had I been told what you described I would never have laid out $45,000. Why would I give a hoot about how many points it takes for the year when all I am interested in is when I want to go and the cost of that. This can be twisted with a hundred different explanations. That's not what was sold....and yes, if the same week costs me 15% more, my points are devalued.  And yes....that does make it fraud.


I understand that you may well have been told that, my point was that you should not have been told that.
I can guarantee that this would not have been in the contract you signed.
Sadly some rogue sale people will say almost anything to close a deal. 
They should be reprimanded, disciplined, perhaps fired if there is proof of them telling lies.
Unless they put this in writing though or you have a voice recording of them saying this, as others have mentioned the only thing that counts is the contract and this will not be fraudulent.
Were you misled, yes. 
Is this wrong, yes it is totally unacceptable and IF MVC management knew it was happening that could be cause for legal action. 
Without evidence though, there is really little one can do unfortunately.


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 3, 2020)

In all fairness, sales reps have never been known to be all that knowledgeable about some of the more subtle nuances of the MVC program that are buried in the Program Docs. I suspect many TUGgers know more about the detailed T&Cs than the average sales rep does. What the Sales folks know is likely based on the Sales Training they get, and I suspect that doesn't get into a lot of the legal nitty gritty and focuses mainly on the big picture. While I do suspect the fact that the charts can be tweaked with limitations may be mentioned somewhere in the training, I doubt its a big focus, and since the points charts HAVE, in fact, been very stable over the last 10 years, that "big picture" is what the sales reps latch on to.

There no question some reps stretch the truth and some may outright misrepresent things, but in other cases, the factual errors may just reflect that the MVC system is fairly complex and their training doesn't drill into some of the gory details to the same extent that TUGgers drill into those details. I'm not defending the sales team or their practices, just pointing out that not every misstatement or omission is intentional. Sometimes it is just lack of detailed knowledge.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 3, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> The reps called it a 401v.....v for vacation.



I dunno - I kind of treat it that way as part of my retirement and snowbird planning, so I'm not going to call them out on that one.  Now if they're saying it's an appreciable asset, then that's another story.


----------



## Dean (Jan 3, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> With this, I wholeheartedly agree.  People don’t read what they have signed and then complain.  Once you sign, you are responsible for your purchase. You also have a 5 day rescission period to review the contract and to review the rules and policies.
> 
> However Dean, I must admit that even Marriott salespeople outright lie.  Think about it.  They say things like your elected points from your week is not as viable as the Destination trust points.  Some have been on the brink of lying with the whole sale of Vistana, Westin, etc. trying to entice people to buy points now. They definitely can mislead you like the salesman who told me this summer that I needed to buy a Custom House week because my portfolio needed more Bonvoy Points. Ha Ha Ha


It does happen and likely more than it did a few years ago but IMO it's not the majority to the time even when issues arrive.  To be a lie it'd have to be purposeful and blatantly false.  I think the majority of the time they make relatively general statements that a given individual may personalize and get the wrong impression, often that's often not intended.  Also, I do think that the sales force is often not nearly as knowledgeable about the rules and how the system actually works as the people here are.  Here's an example, I wanted to get a specific answer to what days are given to the DC side at a floating week resort when a member elects points.  They really didn't have a clue and it was funny seeing them scramble to give an explanation when they clearly didn't know.


mbstn6254 said:


> I don't mean to hog the conversation, and maybe I drew three of the most dishonest reps Marriott has ever hired, but during the presentation, when I asked about how get out of this if I wanted to  it was told to me that *MVC would buy back my points at the prevailing retail cost minus a bunch of fees to equal about 50% of the price of points. So if the price per point was $14 I would net about $7. *The intimation being that as the price for points keep rising in a few years time I could recoup more than the 50% of my purchase. I asked if that was in writing. He pulled out an I Pad and showed me what purportedly was a digital version of the offering documents that said exactly what he described. I later discovered that was not the case at all. Out of curiosity, because so much of the presentation turned out to be false, I made in inquiry to have MVC buy back my points. The offer MVC made to me was $1.67 per point. There were other representations regarding VIP treatment and other things that also turned out false. This group in Orlando even told me they were not even salespeople but customer service managers looking to make sure I was satisfied with my original purpose. So out of 3 major benefits to me purchasing points...all were false. The biggest one being the one I just discovered. The point values to the resorts can be changed.
> 
> So as not be deemed just a crank, my wife and I have enjoyed the vacations we have taken with MVC. The places are OK the staffs are trained well and are pleasant. But this doesn't take away the fact that representations made to secure the sale were false...and I believe knowingly so.


Intimation and lying are different things.  I've probably done 30 to 35 sales tours with Marriott over the years as well as that many or more with other companies.  And that doesn't include informal sit downs which are likely another 30 roughly.  I can only think of a couple of times when what they told me was blantantly false but even then and given some of the issues, it's likely they were ill informed rather than purposeful in most cases.  I realize at the end of the day it may not matter to a given individual if they make a decision based on incorrect information but it's important to this discussion.  Still, one has the responsibility to understand what they're paying this much money for including reading the legal documents and if not, it's really on them IMO.  It is not the responsibility of the sales person to make sure it's a good choice for you, that's your and my job.  Their job is to sell.


----------



## Mr. Vker (Jan 3, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> Oh, and wasn't trying to stir up a riot here, just noting what I saw when skimming HHI in January 2021.



THUNDERDOME!


----------



## dgf15215 (Jan 3, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.
> 
> For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?



Yes. Absolutely. That happened to us a number of years back and the net effect was that one of our owned weeks (from pre-DP days) went down 100 points which dropped our ownership stake to just below CC level. To their credit, they guaranteed our CC membership on an ongoing basis but we do have 100 fewer points to use every year. Of course, we still have the use of the week that took the hit although we covert everything to points, far more advantageous IMHO.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Jan 3, 2020)

VacationForever said:


> We like the model of weekend costing more as we get to save a few points staying for 12 or 10 nights as opposed to 2 full weeks.  For this year, we have booked 10 nights in Jan in Palm Desert, 10 nights in April at Ko Olina and 10 nights at Newport Coast in Sept.



We always do that as well! Makes for great cheap vacations for longer than a week, and, allows for cheaper flights often as well.


----------



## StevenTing (Jan 4, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> From post #12 above:
> "In my admittedly very small sample of the HHI resorts January 2021, that was what I saw.  Early January is less points than 2020 while the end of January is more."
> 
> Sample:  Harbour Point 2 BR
> ...


So you picked one specific day.  What do the points look like for a 1 week stay?


----------



## Fasttr (Jan 4, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> So you picked one specific day.  What do the points look like for a 1 week stay?


I believe those are full week point needs.  HHI in January is pretty cheap from a points perspective.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Jan 4, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> I believe those are full week point needs.  HHI in January is pretty cheap from a points perspective.


Yes, those are for Sat-Sat one-week reservations.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 4, 2020)

Disney Vacation Club has done similar readjustments over the years to their point allocations.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 4, 2020)

dgf15215 said:


> Yes. Absolutely. That happened to us a number of years back and the net effect was that one of our owned weeks (from pre-DP days) went down 100 points which dropped our ownership stake to just below CC level. To their credit, they guaranteed our CC membership on an ongoing basis but we do have 100 fewer points to use every year. Of course, we still have the use of the week that took the hit although we covert everything to points, far more advantageous IMHO.



I think it's important to note (in any thread about the devaluation of DC Points) that this particular instance of an enrolled Week's DC Point allotment being reduced sometime after enrollment of the Week, is the one and only single time since the DC rollout in 2010 that a report has been made to TUG about a single Week's allotment being changed. It's been previously discussed in this thread, Change in MVC ownership tiers, and neither this poster nor any other Ocean Pointe owner has been able to provide documentation supporting that this reduction happened.

dgf, I apologize if you think I'm unfairly questioning you but once more I'll say, a reduction in the DC Point allotment of an enrolled Week would be HUGE - and UNWELCOME - news for owners of enrolled Weeks. Minus documentation I still question whether you're confusing the grandfathering that happened when the DC status tier requirements were adjusted in 2015, or, the adjustments being discussed in this thread that happen routinely in the annual DC Points Charts.


----------



## TimGolobic (Jan 4, 2020)

A whole lot of outrage over nothing. As Steven Ting pointed out, along with others, very little changes from year to year. And even those changes are almost always limited to the holiday weeks and where those fall on weekdays.

The number of points per week does not change. Some individual nights go up, and others in the same week go down, net change is zero. 

A good example is the Jan 1-3, 2021 weekend. Those rates have been jacked up to tie together the premium NYE holiday on Thursday and demand to stay through the weekend. But the remaining weeknights Jan 3-8 are deeply discounted, net change for the week is zero. A lot of great deals starting Jan 3, 2021.

And the net change for the entire property will always be zero. It's tied to timeshare regulations and how the land trust works. You can't sell 10 million points out of a property and have the total of all reservations exceed that amount. For you economist types, it's like the money supply and backing it with the value of gold in reserves.

And I'm looking forward to 2021 charts being released soon, hopefully before 2022 rolls around.


----------



## dgf15215 (Jan 4, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I think it's important to note (in any thread about the devaluation of DC Points) that this particular instance of an enrolled Week's DC Point allotment being reduced sometime after enrollment of the Week, is the one and only single time since the DC rollout in 2010 that a report has been made to TUG about a single Week's allotment being changed. It's been previously discussed in this thread, Change in MVC ownership tiers, and neither this poster nor any other Ocean Pointe owner has been able to provide documentation supporting that this reduction happened.
> 
> dgf, I apologize if you think I'm unfairly questioning you but once more I'll say, a reduction in the DC Point allotment of an enrolled Week would be HUGE - and UNWELCOME - news for owners of enrolled Weeks. Minus documentation I still question whether you're confusing the grandfathering that happened when the DC status tier requirements were adjusted in 2015, or, the adjustments being discussed in this thread that happen routinely in the annual DC Points Charts.




Sue - I know you've expressed this before. I won't take particular offense at your questioning but if I go to the bother of somehow documenting this for you, you'll owe me a drink. 

It's been some time ago when it happened, neither my wife nor I have any paperwork about it left, it probably went out with some old tax/bills/etc. stuff a while ago. But I will make some phone calls to customer care and track down what I can. I would sooner have the 100 points back than not, but that wasn't an option that presented itself when we challenged the change. The issue at hand was that we owned the week before and after the change, that what we purchased is exactly what we now have; that the points were assigned years after the fact. Our concern was more the CC as we had bought just enough to qualify; I can't believe that we are the only owners with grandfathered CC at 12,900 points. CC has been good to us over many years, particularly when traveling overseas. 

I don't think it is particularly complicated. They have the right to reassign values within the timeshares as long as the net sum of the total value remains the same; to raise the value of one week, another week has to lose those points. Some legacy owners benefited, others lost out. If I can't get an answer on the phone, I'll try again at the sales office when we're in Aruba in a couple of weeks. 

Don


----------



## wmp0719 (Jan 5, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I thought the purchase of points locked in my cost per night in points, not MF, as of the date I purchased them. So....for example if the cost per night in points at a resort was 400 at the time of purchase it would always be 400 per night. Other wise...whats the point in pwning points?
> 
> Am I wrong?



I thought the same thing. This is what we were told on multiple sales conversations. I own weeks, but was thinking of adding points. Don't think I will now after learning this.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 5, 2020)

When I purchased years ago I asked the specific question and was told loud and clear that MVCI had the right to adjust the number of DC points needed for any specific night but that if there was an increase, there would be a decrease for another night to compensate for the upward adjustment as the shape of the pie will always remain the same but the size of the slices may change.

As for the reference to the 401-v, whenever a salesperson pulls out that nonsense, I stop them right away. A purchase of MVCI DC is in no way an “investment”.  You are purchasing entry into a “lifestyle”.  I look at the purchase of points as being akin to an initiation fee at certain non-equity golf or county clubs. Once you pay it, it’s gone.  Thereafter, to remain a member of the club, you pay your annual dues (akin to maintenance fees).


----------



## Dean (Jan 5, 2020)

dgf15215 said:


> Sue - I know you've expressed this before. I won't take particular offense at your questioning but if I go to the bother of somehow documenting this for you, you'll owe me a drink.
> 
> It's been some time ago when it happened, neither my wife nor I have any paperwork about it left, it probably went out with some old tax/bills/etc. stuff a while ago. But I will make some phone calls to customer care and track down what I can. I would sooner have the 100 points back than not, but that wasn't an option that presented itself when we challenged the change. The issue at hand was that we owned the week before and after the change, that what we purchased is exactly what we now have; that the points were assigned years after the fact. Our concern was more the CC as we had bought just enough to qualify; I can't believe that we are the only owners with grandfathered CC at 12,900 points. CC has been good to us over many years, particularly when traveling overseas.
> 
> ...


Assuming accuracy, was this something that happened around the time of enrollment or much later.


----------



## kds4 (Jan 5, 2020)

In a similar vein to shifting around the number of points per night required (usually around a holiday time frame), there are also the instances of individual resorts creating 'minimum stay' requirements (effectively blocking single night points reservations). We have experienced this ourselves within the past couple of years at MVC properties on HHI that required a 2 or even 3 night stay to make a points reservation during certain 'high-demand' dates. This is never a published restriction on the MVC website, but with some creative date searches you could see changes in availability confirming the existence of these 'resort imposed restrictions'. For example, the website shows availability for a certain date range on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. However, when you attempt to search for just a Friday using the same date as the proposed 3 day reservation, it shows nothing available.  While not a big deal to many folks, I suspect (unless they either live near a desired single-night destination or use single night stays incident to other travel), the ability to make single-night reservations was promoted as an 'ownership perk' of DC points (and is definitely being manipulated at the resort level in some locations).


----------



## Beverley (Jan 5, 2020)

Question for the group:  I own on HHI.  If they raise the price of reserving a week at say the Barony from 4500 (ocean side unit) to 5000 and I only receive 4200 for my ocean side week, shouldn't they raise my point value for turning in what I own (the 4200)?  I did't scrutinize the docs as I should have and I realize that in this scenario I should just book my week, but I am using this as an example to be clearer on my question.


----------



## Beverley (Jan 5, 2020)

kds4 said:


> In a similar vein to shifting around the number of points per night required (usually around a holiday time frame), there are also the instances of individual resorts creating 'minimum stay' requirements (effectively blocking single night points reservations). We have experienced this ourselves within the past couple of years at MVC properties on HHI that required a 2 or even 3 night stay to make a points reservation during certain 'high-demand' dates. This is never a published restriction on the MVC website, but with some creative date searches you could see changes in availability confirming this 'local restriction'. For example, the website shows availability for a certain date range on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. However, when you attempt to search for just a Friday using the same date as the proposed 3 day reservation, it shows nothing available.  While not a big deal to many folks, I suspect (unless they either live near a desired single-night destination or use single night stays incident to other travel), the ability to make single-night reservations was promoted as an 'ownership perk' of DC points.


That is very interesting!


----------



## dgf15215 (Jan 5, 2020)

Beverley said:


> Question for the group:  I own on HHI.  If they raise the price of reserving a week at say the Barony from 4500 (ocean side unit) to 5000 and I only receive 4200 for my ocean side week, shouldn't they raise my point value for turning in what I own (the 4200)?  I did't scrutinize the docs as I should have and I realize that in this scenario I should just book my week, but I am using this as an example to be clearer on my question.



Beverly, by all rights that is exactly what should happen.


----------



## Beverley (Jan 5, 2020)

dgf15215 said:


> Beverly, by all rights that is exactly what should happen.


Agreed ... i guess we will all find out soon enough )


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 5, 2020)

Time will tell when the 2021 points charts are finally posted, but I predict what @TimGolobic posted above will prove to be mostly true - the points cost per week will be basically the same for 2020 and 2021, but the differences will be how the cost per night is distributed between some of those weeks at certain times of the year. We'll see eventually.


----------



## csalter2 (Jan 5, 2020)

I believe this is all Much Ado About Nothing as Bill Shakespeare once said.


----------



## pedro47 (Jan 6, 2020)

I feel someone at MVC are looking at every holiday in the world and every major sporting events during a year and they are increasing points stays for that period. Plus, there are projecting these holidays and sporting events out for two to three years until 2023. IMHO.


----------



## MALC9990 (Jan 6, 2020)

mbstn6254 said:


> I am having an issue following this with regard to what I was told.
> 
> For example: When I purchased my points if a resort in Hawaii posted rates of 500 points per night for weekdays and 1,200 points per night on the weekends during a week in August, are you telling me they can now change that to 600 points a night during the week and 1,500 points per night for the same week, but decrease the points for an off period?


YES.


----------



## Dean (Jan 6, 2020)

Beverley said:


> Question for the group:  I own on HHI.  If they raise the price of reserving a week at say the Barony from 4500 (ocean side unit) to 5000 and I only receive 4200 for my ocean side week, shouldn't they raise my point value for turning in what I own (the 4200)?  I did't scrutinize the docs as I should have and I realize that in this scenario I should just book my week, but I am using this as an example to be clearer on my question.


Around here it's called the skim.  There has been a lot of discussion of it over the years.  Some are more opposed than others but as long as they balance the points over the year, I'd say the short answer is no.  To say yes would be to say that if they lower the points, they should also lower your points allotment and if they raise yours, they should lower someone else's.  You can still use your week and you lose nothing.


----------



## capjak (Jan 6, 2020)

I own Disney as well and they did a point adjustment because too many people were avoiding weekends via points.   They adjusted the points such that they reduced the rate for weekends closer to what it was for during the week and increased at other points, overall a weeks stay barely changed but if you did the 5 night Sunday-Thursday "trick" and than paid $$ for the weekend it made the sunday-thursday "trick" not worth it.


----------



## Dean (Jan 6, 2020)

capjak said:


> I own Disney as well and they did a point adjustment because too many people were avoiding weekends via points.   They adjusted the points such that they reduced the rate for weekends closer to what it was for during the week and increased at other points, overall a weeks stay barely changed but if you did the 5 night Sunday-Thursday "trick" and than paid $$ for the weekend it made the sunday-thursday "trick" not worth it.


Disney has done quite a few reallocations over the years.  Disney has several differences IMO.  They have the hotel information to pull from so in many ways they have a ton more data.  They also are mandated in the POS to reallocate if the demand is skewed.  And the fact they started out with points means any inefficiency of points was somewhat accounted for up front though the 2-4% for DVC is quite a bit less than the cushion Marriott has allotted for points though I think the circumstances of the type of stays is different also.  I do feel the shorter stays fit in far better for DVC than for most Marriott's.


----------



## GregT (Jan 7, 2020)

kds4 said:


> In a similar vein to shifting around the number of points per night required (usually around a holiday time frame), there are also the instances of individual resorts creating 'minimum stay' requirements (effectively blocking single night points reservations). We have experienced this ourselves within the past couple of years at MVC properties on HHI that required a 2 or even 3 night stay to make a points reservation during certain 'high-demand' dates. This is never a published restriction on the MVC website, but with some creative date searches you could see changes in availability confirming the existence of these 'resort imposed restrictions'. For example, the website shows availability for a certain date range on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. However, when you attempt to search for just a Friday using the same date as the proposed 3 day reservation, it shows nothing available.  While not a big deal to many folks, I suspect (unless they either live near a desired single-night destination or use single night stays incident to other travel), the ability to make single-night reservations was promoted as an 'ownership perk' of DC points (and is definitely being manipulated at the resort level in some locations).


This happened to me -- I booked a four night reservation across MLK weekend at Summit Watch -- I only wanted Fri-Mon, but I was required to book the Thursday lead in....the other non-published usage requirement I have seen is when I was required to use Trust Points to book Ritz STT.   The system required 44% of the points to be Trust Points for that 13 month out reservation.

Interesting to see the system evolve and mature.  I do agree with others that if they increase certain days/weeks and have offsetting decrease for days/weeks, I think that's simply a reflection of supply/demand.  

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 7, 2020)

When I wanted to book an ocean view unit at Ko Olina, ocean view units would not allow me to book with a Tuesday check in and Tuesday check out.  I worked around it by booking to start on a weekend and then calling them to trim my reservation.  A supervisor was able to do so.  Our plans then changed and we wanted to add another 3 days.  Similarly an ocean view unit would not show up with 3 days.  I booked a week and called to trim it again.  The agent got a supervisor to do so.  I believe with Vistana and Marriott call centers being merged, as reported in a separate thread, many first line agents do not realize that only a supervisor's system can do the trimming.  Hence I suggest to call and find someone experienced who will get the request off to a supervisor to make changes while you hold.


----------



## Dean (Jan 7, 2020)

VacationForever said:


> When I wanted to book an ocean view unit at Ko Olina, ocean view units would not allow me to book with a Tuesday check in and Tuesday check out.  I worked around it by booking to start on a weekend and then calling them to trim my reservation.  A supervisor was able to do so.  Our plans then changed and we wanted to add another 3 days.  Similarly an ocean view unit would not show up with 3 days.  I booked a week and called to trim it again.  The agent got a supervisor to do so.  I believe with Vistana and Marriott call centers being merged, as reported in a separate thread, many first line agents do not realize that only a supervisor's system can do the trimming.  Hence I suggest to call and find someone experienced who will get the request off to a supervisor to make changes while you hold.


I think we'll see that option going away to be allowed to book then change keeping the original reservation but we'll see.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Feb 5, 2020)

UPDATE:  Now that the points charts for 2021 are kinda sorta available (see other thread for hack info while Steven T. puts them together), there is a quirk resulting in the weekday points costs for week 1 (Sun - Thurs 1/3 - 1/7) being considerably lower than the following week.  For instance, if you book Waiohai the full week 1/3 - 1/10 IV it is 3,000 DPs.  For 1/4-1/11 it's a little higher, and higher still for 1/3 1/2 - 1/9, but all three check-in dates are lower than full week points of the minimum 4,225 as indicated on the charts.

IMO this represents a pretty good bargain if you can catch these at desirable January locations.  Went to check Aruba but nothing available.  Florida resorts like MGV same type of discount for that week.


----------



## vol_90 (Feb 5, 2020)

Marriott will evolve the point system with data / artificial intelligence.  Expect and anticipate change over the years.  Weeks owners should be locked into their respective seasons without too much change.  Great inventory of resorts and growing.  Maintenance fees growing as well


----------



## TimGolobic (Feb 6, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> Hopefully our TUG pal @StevenTing can work his magic and compile a full PDF of all the point charts for 2021 as he has done in the past.  Having that will make comparisons across the resorts much easier.


Looks like he has waved his wand, so to speak:


			https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2021.pdf


----------



## StevenTing (Feb 11, 2020)

Looks like MVC has also posted the 2021 charts on the site.  If anyone finds Page 87, please let me know.


----------



## Fasttr (Feb 11, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Looks like MVC has also posted the 2021 charts on the site.  If anyone finds Page 87, please let me know.


I saw that today also.  And I looked for page 87 and did not find it.    Perhaps it’s a yet to be announced new destination.  ;-)


----------



## Superchief (Feb 11, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> I saw that today also.  And I looked for page 87 and did not find it.    Perhaps it’s a yet to be announced new destination.  ;-)


You can probably find it on the 13th floor of a hotel


----------



## vol_90 (Feb 12, 2020)

Superchief said:


> You can probably find it on the 13th floor of a hotel


Triskaidekaphobia...…._, _the fear of the number 13.  Probably why Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl


----------



## dioxide45 (Feb 12, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Looks like MVC has also posted the 2021 charts on the site.  If anyone finds Page 87, please let me know.


Perhaps just a blank page? If this was printed in a book, perhaps a blank page there makes sense since this is the start of a new geographical area?


----------



## StevenTing (Feb 12, 2020)

I was sent a copy of the 2021 points chart from a Tugger that had received it from owners services.  Page 87 is a scenic picture.  I've updated the PDF to the copy from Owner Services, complete with index.


----------



## JIMinNC (Feb 17, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> UPDATE:  Now that the points charts for 2021 are kinda sorta available (see other thread for hack info while Steven T. puts them together), there is a quirk resulting in the weekday points costs for week 1 (Sun - Thurs 1/3 - 1/7) being considerably lower than the following week.  For instance, if you book Waiohai the full week 1/3 - 1/10 IV it is 3,000 DPs.  For 1/4-1/11 it's a little higher, and higher still for 1/3 1/2 - 1/9, but all three check-in dates are lower than full week points of the minimum 4,225 as indicated on the charts.
> 
> IMO this represents a pretty good bargain if you can catch these at desirable January locations.  Went to check Aruba but nothing available.  Florida resorts like MGV same type of discount for that week.



Yes, as you've noted and as some of us suggested earlier in this thread, the discrepancies you noted early in this thread for HHI were not actually changes/devaluation of the points chart, but merely a reflection of some premium pricing for the weekend days of New Years week. Specifically, as you can see from the attached Waiohai chart, they have premium-priced Friday and Saturday Jan 1 and 2 at 1425 and 1400 points respectively (IV), so to keep the total week at 4225 points, they dropped Sun-Thu to only 280 points per night. By contrast, the following week Jan 8-14, Friday and Saturday drop back to 800 points each and Sun-Thu rise to 525 each night. So a "week" that starts on Jan 3 after those premium price days on Jan 1/2 will benefit from both the much lower Sun-Thu points cost Jan 3-7 and the lower Fri-Sat costs on Jan 8-9.





It is indeed a quirk as you noted and not the general point devaluation that seemed to get people a bit "riled up." As @csalter2 said above:


csalter2 said:


> I believe this is all Much Ado About Nothing as Bill Shakespeare once said.


----------

