# Impact of new Grand Waikikian in Lagoon Tower values?



## Wexflyer (Dec 7, 2008)

I own a week at the HGVC Lagoon Tower - 1 Br, Platinum week.  With the imminent opening of the adjacent new Grand Waikikean tower, I wonder what the impact will be on resale prices and rental values for the Lagoon tower. I am not very well informed on Hawaiian timeshare values, so I can imagine things going either way:
More expernsive - GW tower is much more expensive to buy (I am guessing, based on much higher points values required to use it). Consequently, lagoon tower will look like a bargain, pushing up demand and prices.
Cheaper - Lagoon tower now eclipsed by much fancier adjacent property.

I realize that to some extent what I am asking for is speculation, but my guess is that some of you are much better informed on these matters than I am.
Thanks!


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## ocdb8r (Dec 7, 2008)

I think the Grand Waikikian is the least of the concerns about Lagoon Tower values.  The T/S market is in freefall as owners must 1) Free up cash from somewhere, 2) Decrease unnecessary bills (maint.), and 3) Realize that taking vacations may be a true "luxury" for a few years, even if you already own a T/S.  All these will continue to depress T/S values.

Absent that debate, I think the new resort will only push down values at the Lagoon Tower.  Aside from being eclipsed by a newer resort, the Grand Waikikian and Kings Island signify a dramatic shift for HGVC as far as point values.  Even a 3 bdrm 9600 point ownership at Lagoon won't get you into the either of the new resorts except in much smaller rooms at off-peak times.  While it may increase "demand" for Lagoon, it won't be demand to own, only demand from the increase in owners looking to get into a lower value resort.

On a related note, I wonder what these new point values will do to HGVC trading prospects?!!?  New Grand/Kings owners will be able to trade OUT with a glut of leftover points, while it will be very difficult for everyone else to trade IN.  Seems like there will be a disconnect somewhere.


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## jestme (Dec 7, 2008)

I agree that resale timeshare values could plummet in this economy. But first, so will their usage. Rather than sell, I would expect a number of people will bank or rescue points until they can afford to use them. As far as the resale value of Lagoon, it will come down to maintenance fees. If the maintenance fees for GrandW are double that of the Lagoon, that will affect the resale value, big time. 
I've never been happy with the change in point values for Waikikian and Kings Land. I think HGVC has done a major disservice to all their previous owners. Yes, it takes more money to build now than 10 years ago, but 10 years from now it will cost more again. That is a pricing issue, not a points issue in my book.


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## jehb2 (Dec 7, 2008)

This doesn't exactly answer the question (which is good) but two things I have notices is that:

1) from January to now Hilton has lowered the prices on both Kingsland and Waikikian.  They're still both expensive as heck but the developer prices have dropped.

2) The Lagoon Tower remains booked.  Weeks make become available for a while but ultimately they get snapped up despite the current state of our economy.

We been HGVC members for 10 years now.  (3 developer-1 resale)  Our developer weeks were purchased so long ago that in retrospect we actually got a very good deal.  For example, our HHV Lagoon Tower resales for much more than what we paid for it.

I don't see the Lagoon Tower dropping dramatically in value.  I have been watching the resale prices for sometime as I would love to pick up another week there but they still remain a bit pricey. 



ocdb8r said:


> I wonder what these new point values will do to HGVC trading prospects...it will be very difficult for everyone else to trade IN.  Seems like there will be a disconnect somewhere.



I too wonder about this.  The Grand Waikikian is nice but there isn't a great disparity in the decor since HGVC upgraded the Lagoon Tower.  

At a recent tour the saleperson even suggested that we should buy a Waikikian week since Waikikian members would be using their points to stay at the Lagoon Tower thus making it difficult for us to do extended stays.

I usually think the sales people are full of crap but I know that if I were a Waikikian owner I use my points for a longer stay in the Lagoon Tower.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 7, 2008)

jehb2 said:


> I too wonder about this.  The Grand Waikikian is nice but there isn't a great disparity in the decor since HGVC upgraded the Lagoon Tower.



I was under the impression that the furnishing and decor were much higher than even the upgraded Lagoon.  Is that not the case?


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## Wexflyer (Dec 7, 2008)

Sandy Lovell said:


> I was under the impression that the furnishing and decor were much higher than even the upgraded Lagoon.  Is that not the case?



Well, speaking for myself, and on the basis of looking at the photo's on the HGVC website: the new GW does seem to have better decor than the Lagoon tower, but certainly not "much higher". In any case they would need solid silver fittings and gold leaf covered walls and ceilings to justify the points differences they are charging (IMHO).


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## Wexflyer (Dec 7, 2008)

ocdb8r said:


> I think the Grand Waikikian is the least of the concerns about Lagoon Tower values.  The T/S market is in freefall as owners must 1) Free up cash from somewhere, 2) Decrease unnecessary bills (maint.), and 3) Realize that taking vacations may be a true "luxury" for a few years, even if you already own a T/S.  All these will continue to depress T/S values.



While I would agree that the current economic crisis is going to affect the market, that is a factor that will impact everyone and everywhere equally. My concern about the new GW tower vis a vis the Lagoon tower is that it is a permanent local modification (by HGVC) of the value of my investment. Question is, do I stand to benefit or lose from this change?


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## Wexflyer (Dec 7, 2008)

jestme said:


> I agree that resale timeshare values could plummet in this economy. But first, so will their usage.



Very interesting comment. I may already have seen direct sign of this. We have spent Thanksgiving for the last three years on Captiva/Sanibel islands. Very noticeable that this year the number of people around, both at the HGVC property, and in general, was way down.


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## linsj (Dec 7, 2008)

The Waikikian tower has some extras in the units, such as whirlpool tubs and washers/dryers, that are not in Lagoon and Kalia towers. Certainly not enough extra for me to spend more points.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 8, 2008)

So it would seem that for most, even if they bought GW, them might try to utilize Kalia and Lagoon towers to make there points go farther.  So inventory at these will go soon leaving only the higher point GW as a choice.  If you really need/wanted to go it would be better than spending on a hotel.  

So planners will get the advantage and people who make decisions too late will take GW or nothing.  Kind of like the airlines, like AA has MileSAAver and AAnytime.  If you plan ahead you might get MileSAAver rewards which are less, if you want/need to go and have the points you will use AAnytime if that is the only choice.


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## eugeneleemd (Dec 8, 2008)

but as lagoon owners can't you book 12 months out for your home  base (lagoon) while the gw with be stuck with a 9 month window if they wanna book lagoon?


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## jestme (Dec 8, 2008)

That is correct. Owners still have the 12 month window to reserve. It is also why owning where you want to go has big advantages over just buying points somewhere.


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## Bill4728 (Dec 8, 2008)

jestme said:


> That is correct. Owners still have the 12 month window to reserve. It is also why owning where you want to go has big advantages over just buying points somewhere.


So what you're saying is that all HGVC owners who want hawaii will find that the new owners from King's Land and the GW may be using their points at the older Hawaiian resorts rather than stay in their own resort. Making it more difficult for a Vegas or Orlando owner to get into the older Hawaiian resorts?


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## jestme (Dec 8, 2008)

The owners at GW and KL have the same opportunity to book as owners from Orlando and Las Vegas, at the 9 month level. The same as everyone has always had. The higher point GW and KL owners however, can book almost two weeks (still at the 9 month level), and only give one back at the GW or KL resorts. It is no longer a one week for one week trade as in the past. In addition, most owners at other resorts cannot book a full week at GW or KL because they probably don't have enough points.
However, keep in mind that GW and KL owners have had those points for a few years now, with no home resort to give back at all. The fact that their home resorts are now open means that some of them will probably stay there, making things better than they have been. Prior, they had points, no resort weeks to contribute back, and they tied up double inventory with their points. At least now, they will be giving back their home week if they don't stay there.


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## linsj (Dec 8, 2008)

I think a lot of the GW and KL owners will want to stay there. They bought based on the extra glitz and amenities that appealed to them. People who pay that kind of money probably aren't looking to squeeze out the most number of nights like many of us. Let's face it; most timeshare owners aren't adept at--and don't care about--working the system. Of course, I could be wrong.


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## danb (Dec 10, 2008)

*Impact of the GW*

I believe that the Lagoon tower will retain its value and a place of choice. We just returned and the new pool is actually along the Lagoon tower and curves around the front of the LT. There are three water slides and two hot tubs and three sections to the pool. What was disturbing was a sales person stating that the pool will be open to everyone including hotel guests. Now mind you they do make a lot of statements to people that are questionable. They couuldn't say how it would be controlled. The lagoon beach is right next to the pool so unless there is a fence or lots of plantings to seperate the area it will be open to all. Time will tell. 
I did inquire about the penthouse units and from the map, floors 35 & 36 are about sold out. A gold two BR is around a 100K. The next three floors are not open to sales yet. From the amount of traffic and noise on the Ala moana side I wouldn't want to be in a unit on a lower level. The asking prices might not hold up and they will tell you you could stay in the Lagoon tower and have points left over.


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## Eyecare (Jan 14, 2009)

I own a 2-BR oceanfront and a 3-BR penthouse unit in the Lagoon Tower and I personally don't care about how the monetary value of my properties will be affected by the Grand Waikikian. The Lagoon tower is much closer to the water and better situated. There aren't a whole lot of rooms in the Grand Waikikian that have a decent view and their asking price is very high for what you get. The only advantage I could see for buying in the Grand Waikikian was to get more HGVC points or to upgrade my status in the Hilton Honors Program. The salesman offered to take both my Lagoon properties in exchange for one in the Grand Waikikian last year but I politely declined. I have an open season booking for a room in the Grand Waikikian to try it out. I'm willing to see what it has to offer me but unless it's overwhelmingly better than what the Lagoon Tower offers I probably won't buy. 
On a separate note, in the past I understood that you could buy HGVC properties on resale from a private seller and retain the same benefits you'd get had you bought direct from the company. I read somewhere that for the most part this benefit remains the same but now "elite benefits" are not granted unless you buy direct from HGVC. Can anyone explain what this means?


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## alwysonvac (Jan 14, 2009)

Eyecare said:


> I read somewhere that for the most part this benefit remains the same but now "elite benefits" are not granted unless you buy direct from HGVC. Can anyone explain what this means?



See this post - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=647913&postcount=9


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## jsfletch (Jan 14, 2009)

I agree with you. We own a 2bdrm oceanfront Lagoon Tower and from what I can tell the view from the tower is far superior. I plan on attending the annual mtg. so hope I will learn a litttle more


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## danb (Jan 15, 2009)

*Lagoon tower Values*

When we stayed in the Lagoon Tower in December we were in two different units for our week stay. The first 4 days we were in a 2br on the 23rd floor. That unit looked recently refurbished and the furnishing were the same as the photos of the GW interior so I think they will eventually have the same furniture. The second three days were in a 1br on the 12th floor and it looked like the furnishings were new. The exterior of the building was also recently repainted to blend better with the GW.


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## HatTrick (Jan 15, 2009)

danb said:


> I believe that the Lagoon tower will retain its value and a place of choice. We just returned and the new pool is actually along the Lagoon tower and curves around the front of the LT. There are three water slides and two hot tubs and three sections to the pool. What was disturbing was a sales person stating that the pool will be open to everyone including hotel guests. Now mind you they do make a lot of statements to people that are questionable. They couuldn't say how it would be controlled. The lagoon beach is right next to the pool so unless there is a fence or lots of plantings to seperate the area it will be open to all. Time will tell.
> I did inquire about the penthouse units and from the map, floors 35 & 36 are about sold out. A gold two BR is around a 100K. The next three floors are not open to sales yet. From the amount of traffic and noise on the Ala moana side I wouldn't want to be in a unit on a lower level. The asking prices might not hold up and they will tell you you could stay in the Lagoon tower and have points left over.



There was a temporary fence separating the new pool area from the lagoon, but they began taking that fence down today.

A bell captain here told us that the GW is about 35% sold, but that sales have pretty much stalled. If the GW was standing where the Lagoon tower is now, I'm guessing that GW units would be easier to sell--the economy notwithstanding.

Roger


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## nigel_ht (Jan 27, 2009)

HatTrick said:


> There was a temporary fence separating the new pool area from the lagoon, but they began taking that fence down today.
> 
> A bell captain here told us that the GW is about 35% sold, but that sales have pretty much stalled. If the GW was standing where the Lagoon tower is now, I'm guessing that GW units would be easier to sell--the economy notwithstanding.
> 
> Roger



I can imagine stalled.  I was there this past weekend and did the tour on a whim with my wife just to see the units.  I could remember only two rules of thumb on timeshares:  buy where you want to go and never buy from the developer.  

Very little room to manuver on pricing and I was thinking 15.9% financing + $4+/point means really zero interest in going the developer route despite the point bonus.  15.9%?  What?  I have credit cards with lower rates.

I dunno what the sales manager was thinking but when I balked on the value of the deal because he offered the points every other year for more than half the price...an even worse value.  I'd have paid a 20-25% premium over resale after factoring in the "face value" of the points for the option to become elite but jeez, I hate being treated like a complete idiot that can't divide by two and realize "Hey, that costs even more".

What they had to do was convince me that the bonus points they were offering, plus any other perks, was worth the delta in price to me.


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## linsj (Mar 11, 2009)

It seems like some GW and Kingsland owners are booking Lagoon Tower. At least over the past weekend, Lagoon was full. (I moved from a 1-bedroom to a studio on Saturday and asked about being left in the 1-bedroom. The clerk would have done so except every room was booked.)

I was talking with a HGVC owner in the lobby the other day. He's elite, with most of his points from Kingsland, all bought from Hilton, some from trading up from other properties. He was here for 4 weeks but couldn't get into Lagoon the first 3, so he and his wife were staying in Kalia and complaining about having to split his stay. 

I, on the other hand, booked in September instead of 9 months out, and got what I wanted in Lagoon.


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## philfischer (May 26, 2009)

*Lagoon tower*

I disagree that the lagoon tower will go down in value. I know the GM personally and I also know a young Hilton hottie that spends too much time in party mode.

Both informed me that the lagoon is going under a renovation in 2013 that is going to make the other two towers look like crap. New exterior, new wallpaper, carpet, and a Starbucks  downstairs as well as a new spa. The spa now is great, but the elevator thing stinks. Also, the lagoon that they finally completed, was recently repaired and now all of the silt and junk is gone. Its fresh as fresh can be.

Ive been to the new penthouse and while its nice, nothing can beat the view from the lagoon tower. The dock is an eyesore, but once its completed, its going to be the best as it always has. Lagoon is ALWAYS booked.

P


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