# Do I understand the new Wyndham changes?



## JudyS (Jul 2, 2017)

There seem to be about 100 pages of discussion on the new Wyndham system. I have read some of it, but a lot of it is like:
Person 1: Cancel and rebook was unfair!
Person 2: Cancel and rebook was perfectly fair!
Person 1: No, it wasn't!
Person 2: Yes, it was!
<etc.>

So, rather than closely reading all 100-or-so pages, I just skimmed parts of them. I *think* the following are the changes Wyndham has made. If I am wrong, please correct me.

#1) Wyndham has a new website that is buggier than a bayou in June. Everyone hates it. (I am virtually positive I am right about this first point.)

#2) Wyndham has changed the credit pooling system so it is no longer possible for Wyndham owners to take the next three year's worth of points and use them all this year. What I'm not sure of is whether credit pooling has been eliminated, or reduced to one year, or what. (And, why is it called "credit pooling" when Wyndham uses points, not credits? I'm so confused!)

#3) Canceled weeks are no longer appearing promptly online, or maybe not re-appearing online at all. This makes it difficult or impossible for VIP members to use the cancel & rebook trick. What I'm not sure of is whether Wyndham has deliberately added a random time delay to when cancel weeks re-appear online, or if their website is just too buggy to put the canceled weeks back online, or what. Do we know the answer to this yet?

#4) Rather than letting VIPs cancel & upgrade, Wyndham is just automatically upgrading random VIP members. Or at least, they are saying they will. Not sure this auto-upgrading is working, or how it is supposed to work. But the idea, I guess, is to get rid of all the nice, juicy 3 & 4 bedrooms that mega-renters used to like to grab via cancel and upgrade. These large units will instead, presumably, go to non-renting owners who use them personally. Am I understanding this right?

And, my last question in this post: For about  four years, I'm been telling myself, "I should have become Wyndham VIP and rented out Wyndham units, but now it's too late for that to be worthwhile." Am I, at long last, correct?


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## chapjim (Jul 2, 2017)

JudyS said:


> There seem to be about 100 pages of discussion on the new Wyndham system. I have read some of it, but a lot of it is like:
> Person 1: Cancel and rebook was unfair!
> Person 2: Cancel and rebook was perfectly fair!
> Person 1: No, it wasn't!
> ...



I think you pretty much nailed it.  As for the last question, you're probably correct but until the website stabilizes, I don't think we can say for sure.  At the very least, a rental business will take a lot more time than it used to because of the clunkiness in making reservations.


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## Roger830 (Jul 2, 2017)

JudyS said:


> For about  four years, I'm been telling myself, "I should have become Wyndham VIP and rented out Wyndham units,



*fuggedaboutit*


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## tschwa2 (Jul 2, 2017)

JudyS said:


> #2) Wyndham has changed the credit pooling system so it is no longer possible for Wyndham owners to take the next three year's worth of points and use them all this year. What I'm not sure of is whether credit pooling has been eliminated, or reduced to one year, or what. (And, why is it called "credit pooling" when Wyndham uses points, not credits? I'm so confused!)


Credit pool was replaced by Points deposit.  The deadlines are different.  Standard member has 3 months into the use year to use the feature, Silver has 6 months, Gold has 9 months, and Platinum has until the last day of the use year.

When you elect to use the credit deposit you say how many points you want to go into either the next use year (so for example 2018) or to the one following that (2019).  If you want to put some in one year and some in the next you would pay two fees to do so.  Once in the new year you could not deposit them forward again.  They would expire at the end of the new use year if not used.  You can no longer use those points in the current year or any other year other than the year they were moved to.    So you technically could have 3 years in a single use year if you deposited 2017 points into 2019 and deposited 2018 points in 2019, you would have 3 years points in 2019.  You have to pick a year by your deadline and that is when the points can be used.


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## bnoble (Jul 2, 2017)

Rather than vote I will answer.

First, this answer ignores the various ways to get VIP without buying much in the way from Wyndham directly. Such ways still exist, but there aren't many and they aren't necessarily easy. It also ignores any commercial use, and considers this only as a personal ownership.

If you are buying directly from Wyndham, even the most optimistic analyses I've seen suggest that at best you break even. And that's _wildly _optimistic. As far as I can tell, it has never made financial sense to buy from Wyndham in order to secure VIP. With the recent process changes, it makes even less sense.

As a commercial enterprise: it could be done, but there are easier ways to make a similar ROI, as far as I can tell.


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## HeidiMOM (Jul 2, 2017)

More agreement here.
Regarding #4: Yes, it seems the cancel-rebook game is over, or very risky. As soon as you cancel, the "auto-upgrade" system could be scooping up your reservation for someone else. I am planning to keep an eye out and keep asking question to see how things play out.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 2, 2017)

When you elect to use the credit deposit you say how many points you want to go into either the next use year (so for example 2018) or to the one following that (2019).  If you want to put some in one year and some in the next you would pay two fees to do so.  Once in the new year you could not deposit them forward again.  They would expire at the end of the new use year if not used.  You can no longer use those points in the current year or any other year other than the year they were moved to.    So you technically could have 3 years in a single use year if you deposited 2017 points into 2019 and deposited 2018 points in 2019, you would have 3 years points in 2019.  You have to pick a year by your deadline and that is when the points can be used.[/QUOTE]

You give a good example of how to move 3 years worth of points into 2019 using the Deposit Feature.  Thank you.  It has to be *very well understood*, by all, that should you want to use some of those deposited points for a vacation before 2019, you can't.  With the Credit pool, you could pool 2017/2018 points and still use them in 2017 or 2018 should a vacation want/need arise and, of course, use them in 2019 before using your 2019 points.  The deposit feature is very restrictive and has some real negatives.
- You've lost the 2017/2018 vacation options after you make that deposit (as noted) 
- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)
- You cannot move deposited points a second time nor can you roll them into RCI (again, as I understand it)
For us with fewer points, the deposit feature was a real takeaway versus the credit pooling.  I'm still looking for some positives from all these changes.  Maybe I'll get an automatic upgrade at some point in the future (not holding my breath).


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 2, 2017)

Funny as this might sounds, my feelings today, are that I can use our VIP to book some instantly upgraded rooms and still rent them for a decent profit.  Gone, perhaps, are the days of customizing dates, trimming a day here and there, checking in any day of the week, or 4 BR Pres dirt cheap. 

Likely gone are the days of family reunions at Wyndham resorts (my father's intent when he purchased VIP). 

I don't think Dad would be too disappointed if we take the profits from the rentals and apply them to a reasonably priced, non-Wyndham, vacation package of sorts so that we can continue to enjoy family times together.  THAT was his intent.


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2017)

How valuable is/was VIP?  Well it was valuable if you could get it for much less than wyndham prices. and yea, im on that yacht now. But VIP had nothing to do with making the money to buy it. (It was the credit pool)

As to the value of a VIP ownership now, Im taking a wait and see attitude. I dont think you will ever get the 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price any more. But I think last minute half price reservations is still a nice benefit. The open questions are: Will there be any availability at the last minute? and Will I be able to cancel and rebook the smallest unit at a resort? and are there folks willing to pay $8-$10 per 1000 points for a Wyndham rental


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2017)

bnoble said:


> Rather than vote I will answer.
> 
> First, this answer ignores the various ways to get VIP without buying much in the way from Wyndham directly. Such ways still exist, but there aren't many and they aren't necessarily easy. It also ignores any commercial use, and considers this only as a personal ownership.
> 
> ...




If ROI is your only criteria, I dont think there is anything, even now, to beat Wyndham rentals
Without a VIP account; buy 1,050,000  points for $5000  and MF of $6000. Do 7 event weekend reservations to rent at 150000 points at $1000 each. Make a profit of $1000 for a 20% return

The problem isnt ROI, the problem is the work involved to make $100000 a year  700 rentals or 2 a day,  is a job, not an investment


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## wjappraise (Jul 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> If ROI is your only criteria, I dont think there is anything, even now, to beat Wyndham rentals
> Without a VIP account; buy 1,050,000  points for $5000  and MF of $6000. Do 7 event weekend reservations to rent at 150000 points at $1000 each. Make a profit of $1000 for a 20% return
> 
> The problem isnt ROI, the problem is the work involved to make $100000 a year  700 rentals or 2 a day,  is a job, not an investment



Don't forget RT fees, guest fees, and HK fees.  It wouldn't be a VIP account so those pesky fees would chip away at the return on investment. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ZEK1114 (Jul 2, 2017)

#2) Wyndham has changed the credit pooling system so it is no longer possible for Wyndham owners to take the next three year's worth of points and use them all this year. What I'm not sure of is whether credit pooling has been eliminated, or reduced to one year, or what. (And, why is it called "credit pooling" when Wyndham uses points, not credits? I'm so confused!)

Well, unlike savvy Wyndham owners, I dropped off the TUG site for a while and came back after the change. I should have been paying more attention. I came back to find that credit pool is gone and the points we purchased for our biannual family vacation can't be moved around to accommodate our plans. Now they have my full attention. Even though we can no longer credit pool, if we can risk 3 months out booking, we can borrow from the next use year. I think this will work for us since the unit we need will be a one bedroom. Definitely, we will credit pool (or whatever they are calling it for the next vacation in 2020, but I missed the boat on 2018. I believe this to be true.Please anyone correct me if I am wrong.


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Don't forget RT fees, guest fees, and HK fees.  It wouldn't be a VIP account so those pesky fees would chip away at the return on investment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I'm still trying to fine a model that works But I've done a couple of rentals since the change at $8/1000 plus $130. 

With next to no investment, the issue for me isn't ROI it's the time


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## Bigrob (Jul 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I dont think you will ever get the 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price any more. /QUOTE]
> 
> You'd be surprised. I've found a couple of rainbow unicorns.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> How valuable is/was VIP?  Well it was valuable if you could get it for much less than wyndham prices. and yea, im on that yacht now. But VIP had nothing to do with making the money to buy it. (It was the credit pool)
> 
> As to the value of a VIP ownership now, Im taking a wait and see attitude. I dont think you will ever get the 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price any more. But I think last minute half price reservations is still a nice benefit. The open questions are: Will there be any availability at the last minute? and Will I be able to cancel and rebook the smallest unit at a resort? and are there folks willing to pay $8-$10 per 1000 points for a Wyndham rental


Good question. At our last sales meeting in June my daughter told the salesman she would rather stay VIP than to go CWA for what it was going to cost. His last words to the new salesman was get  her signature, her credit is A1. I never realized the signature would have taken my deeds and charged me over $13,000 plus paying $235 or more for each vacation and NO Upgrades and no discounts.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 3, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> Good question. At our last sales meeting in June my daughter told the salesman she would rather stay VIP than to go CWA for what it was going to cost. His last words to the new salesman was get  her signature, her credit is A1. I never realized the signature would have taken my deeds and charged me over $13,000 plus paying $235 or more for each vacation and NO Upgrades and no discounts.


You purchased something in June of 2017?  Do I understand that correctly?  On what date?  Sounds like you should consider rescinding if it's not too late.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 3, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> You purchased something in June of 2017?  Do I understand that correctly?  On what date?  Sounds like you should consider rescinding if it's not too late.


No way. That was when my eyes were opened to their lies. Thank heaven my daughter stopped me from doing anything stupid again.  When I told the former salesman in destin,FL that I could pay many MF for the thousands they wanted me to pay for reducing the fees and they just looked at me like I had lost it. I feel they have been brainwashed to believe their pitch.


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## Braindead (Jul 3, 2017)

We won't know the impact of the rule changes for a couple of years. 
1. What will be the impact of some big renters going out of business ?
2. Will others become big time renters and fill the gap of those going out of business?
3. What will Wyndhams reaction be if mega renting continues? They monitor TUG but don't seem to respond to what is posted. Rental websites are      easy to find but have been ignored in the past. Wyndham was well aware of the amount of renting that was taking place but ignored it.
4. What will availability be at different timeframes in the future?
5. Will VIPs get more discounts ? 
6. Will VIPs get more upgrades ?
7. How big of a benefit is the later date in using the point deposit feature ? I think this benefit is much bigger than most realize. Especially for Gold and Platinum owners. The credit pool was much better for all but it's not coming back.

I understand the outrage at Wyndham. But the fact is they are not the only ones to blame for the changes. Just saying


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 3, 2017)

Getting VIP Platinum was easy for us, and cheap, and if Wyndham no longer allows inexpensive ways to become platinum, I would say very few will buy into it.  We owned floating weeks at resorts Wyndham acquired after the old developer already built most of the resorts.  Wyndham wanted as many weeks as possible under its control.  That made for a cheap conversion.  

Now that the economy has picked up a bit, it seems more people are loosening their purse strings and buying again.  Buying Wyndham is no bargain, if you cannot convert.  I feel sorry for someone who chooses to pay 150K or some ridiculous amount of money to buy into Wyndham.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 3, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Getting VIP Platinum was easy for us, and cheap, and if Wyndham no longer allows inexpensive ways to become platinum, I would say very few will buy into it.  We owned floating weeks at resorts Wyndham acquired after the old developer already built most of the resorts.  Wyndham wanted as many weeks as possible under its control.  That made for a cheap conversion.
> 
> Now that the economy has picked up a bit, it seems more people are loosening their purse strings and buying again.  Buying Wyndham is no bargain, if you cannot convert.  I feel sorry for someone who chooses to pay 150K or some ridiculous amount of money to buy into Wyndham.


I met a fellow who bought 1 million points on EBay for $5,000 at the Smokies but was told he had to join Wyndham to continue using them. This was before the new website so I just wonder if he is able to book on it.


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## cayman01 (Jul 3, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> I met a fellow who bought 1 million points on EBay for $5,000 at the Smokies but was told he had to join Wyndham to continue using them. This was before the new website so I just wonder if he is able to book on it.



he absolutely can use the points. More sales lies.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 3, 2017)

Thank you. This makes it very hard to get anything for my 402,000.


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## raygo123 (Jul 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I'm still trying to fine a model that works But I've done a couple of rentals since the change at $8/1000 plus $130.
> 
> With next to no investment, the issue for me isn't ROI it's the time


If one assumes that Wyndham sets the rack price for a rental, have you figured out how much discount compared to Wyndham, is your rental?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jul 3, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> Thank you. This makes it very hard to get anything for my 402,000.



Not hard at all.. Your 400000 points are worth between $1500 and $3000


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## ronparise (Jul 3, 2017)

raygo123 said:


> If one assumes that Wyndham sets the rack price for a rental, have you figured out how much discount compared to Wyndham, is your rental?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



No


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## Nomad34 (Jul 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Not hard at all.. Your 400000 points are worth between $1500 and $3000


Thank you. If I get the $3000 charge from Buy a Timeshare removed it will be good.


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## wjappraise (Jul 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I understand the outrage at Wyndham. But the fact is they are not the only ones to blame for the changes. Just saying



Hmmmm.  They are 100% to blame for the current state of affairs with their premature roll out of the new website.  100%.  


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## erniecrews (Jul 3, 2017)

I agree, Wyndham is 100% to blame, they are either incompetent or it was by design and if by design it was very diabolical.  They went backward rather than forward with the design.  It is awful what they have done to us.


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## Braindead (Jul 3, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Hmmmm.  They are 100% to blame for the current state of affairs with their premature roll out of the new website.  100%.


You did stop short of blaming Wyndham 100% for the rule changes.
I'm 100% convinced Wyndham had to rush Voyager out due the suspensions-audits. That's why the audits-suspensions took so long to get anything resolved.
Wyndham was put in a corner and had to do something. Wyndham made it worse by ignoring what was going on for to long.

I also think many are passing judgement without full knowledge of what was going on with some owners. Most if not all of us will never know the full extent of what was taking place


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## wjappraise (Jul 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> You did stop short of blaming Wyndham 100% for the rule changes.
> I'm 100% convinced Wyndham had to rush Voyager out due the suspensions-audits. That's why the audits-suspensions took so long to get anything resolved.
> Wyndham was put in a corner and had to do something. Wyndham made it worse by ignoring what was going on for to long.
> 
> I also think many are passing judgement without full knowledge of what was going on with some owners. Most if not all of us will never know the full extent of what was taking place



As one of those who is STILL under the specter of suspension I can say with full confidence "Baloney."   Or similar words. 

This is Wyndham's playground.  Always has been. Always will be.  They bear the burden of keeping the books and being accurate. They failed.  And rather than find out why and fix it, they suspended their best paying customers.  Voyager always has been profit driven.  The suspensions did not change that.  They have had almost a year and only a handful of accounts are resolved. And now numerous other owners (courtesy of the utter failure of the new website) are experiencing the stupidity of this company first hand.   

If, as you suggest, the suspensions triggered the rush roll out of Voyager, then why on earth are so many of us still suspended?   Nice try, but the facts do not support your "shared blame" theory.  Better luck next time.  

After being jacked around for almost a year now with no resolution in sight, all while paying my monthly fees, you can understand why I am less than patient with your throwing around baseless theories that appear to blame ME and others like me for Wyndham's ineptitude.  Please don't do that! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 3, 2017)

[_QUOTE="erniecrews, post: 2024241, member: 94443"]I agree, Wyndham is 100% to blame, they are either_ incompetent or it was by design and if by design it was very diabolical.  They went backward rather than forward with the design.  It is awful what they have done to us.[/QUOTE]

The term I would use is "IDIOTS" to describe Wyndham's corporate mindset. When it became an issue, Corporate Wyndham action plan was knee jerk ... freeze MANY LARGE OWNERS accounts for 6+ months followed by a new computer reservation system NOT fully or competently tested to perform the functions the OLD system did ... much less the ICING COATED "_improvements".  
_
Any new computer system ... esp one counting 'a currency EQUILVALENT' element such as Wyndham points within the system ... must be HONEST, correct and accurate. But this system does NOT even net out the pluses/minus of its currency ... Wyndham points. Could this points system be considered a form of FRAUD by Wyndham on its timeshare points owners & members? Does Wyndham have a liability to the CWA & CWP members to operate & managed with "due care and without malice" ... ie "DO NO HARM" like a doctor? 

Is there a term like "institutional fraud" due to Wyndham corporate actions? And who is Wyndham's corporate auditors or employed company accountants? ... do they just balance the bank accounts or also audit the 'cash equivalent' assets?


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 3, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> [_QUOTE="erniecrews, post: 2024241, member: 94443"]I agree, Wyndham is 100% to blame, they are either_ incompetent or it was by design and if by design it was very diabolical.  They went backward rather than forward with the design.  It is awful what they have done to us.



The term I would use is "IDIOTS" to describe Wyndham's corporate mindset. When it became an issue, Corporate Wyndham action plan was knee jerk ... freeze MANY LARGE OWNERS accounts for 6+ months followed by a new computer reservation system NOT fully or competently tested to perform the functions the OLD system did ... much less the ICING COATED "_improvements".  
_
Any new computer system ... esp one counting 'a currency EQUILVALENT' element such as Wyndham points within the system ... must be HONEST, correct and accurate. But this system does NOT even net out the pluses/minus of its currency ... Wyndham points. Could this points system be considered a form of FRAUD by Wyndham on its timeshare points owners & members? Does Wyndham have a liability to the CWA & CWP members to operate & managed with "due care and without malice" ... ie "DO NO HARM" like a doctor?

Is there a term like "institutional fraud" due to Wyndham corporate actions? And who is Wyndham's corporate auditors or employed company accountants? ... do they just balance the bank accounts or also audit the 'cash equivalent' assets?[/QUOTE]
It is why we have Sarbanes Oxley in the financial spector.   Holds corporations responsibly so we don't have another Enron. So we don't pull the wool over the eyes of the stockholders.

Airplane points system (because points are like money) are held to Sarbanes Oxley standards. 

How does WYN get away with this?


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## heatherlegend (Jul 4, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> When you elect to use the credit deposit you say how many points you want to go into either the next use year (so for example 2018) or to the one following that (2019).  If you want to put some in one year and some in the next you would pay two fees to do so.  Once in the new year you could not deposit them forward again.  They would expire at the end of the new use year if not used.  You can no longer use those points in the current year or any other year other than the year they were moved to.    So you technically could have 3 years in a single use year if you deposited 2017 points into 2019 and deposited 2018 points in 2019, you would have 3 years points in 2019.  You have to pick a year by your deadline and that is when the points can be used.



You give a good example of how to move 3 years worth of points into 2019 using the Deposit Feature.  Thank you.  It has to be *very well understood*, by all, that should you want to use some of those deposited points for a vacation before 2019, you can't.  With the Credit pool, you could pool 2017/2018 points and still use them in 2017 or 2018 should a vacation want/need arise and, of course, use them in 2019 before using your 2019 points.  The deposit feature is very restrictive and has some real negatives.
- You've lost the 2017/2018 vacation options after you make that deposit (as noted)
- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)
- You cannot move deposited points a second time nor can you roll them into RCI (again, as I understand it)
For us with fewer points, the deposit feature was a real takeaway versus the credit pooling.  I'm still looking for some positives from all these changes.  Maybe I'll get an automatic upgrade at some point in the future (not holding my breath).[/QUOTE]
Question:  if you move 2017 & 2018 into 2019 can you then move 2019 into 2020 thereby freeing up the 2017 & 2018 points to now be used while "saving" the 2019 in the move to 2020?


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2017)

heatherlegend said:


> You give a good example of how to move 3 years worth of points into 2019 using the Deposit Feature.  Thank you.  It has to be *very well understood*, by all, that should you want to use some of those deposited points for a vacation before 2019, you can't.  With the Credit pool, you could pool 2017/2018 points and still use them in 2017 or 2018 should a vacation want/need arise and, of course, use them in 2019 before using your 2019 points.  The deposit feature is very restrictive and has some real negatives.
> - You've lost the 2017/2018 vacation options after you make that deposit (as noted)
> - You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)
> - You cannot move deposited points a second time nor can you roll them into RCI (again, as I understand it)
> For us with fewer points, the deposit feature was a real takeaway versus the credit pooling.  I'm still looking for some positives from all these changes.  Maybe I'll get an automatic upgrade at some point in the future (not holding my breath).


Question:  if you move 2017 & 2018 into 2019 can you then move 2019 into 2020 thereby freeing up the 2017 & 2018 points to now be used while "saving" the 2019 in the move to 2020?[/QUOTE]
This is the part I *hope* is wrong.  
_*- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)*_
We would want the deposited points to be used first. 
Has anyone seen this spelled out anywhere?


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## Kozman (Jul 4, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Question:  if you move 2017 & 2018 into 2019 can you then move 2019 into 2020 thereby freeing up the 2017 & 2018 points to now be used while "saving" the 2019 in the move to 2020?


This is the part I *hope* is wrong. 
_*- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)*_
We would want the deposited points to be used first.
Has anyone seen this spelled out anywhere?[/QUOTE]

My DW spoke with two people at Wyndham. One said that you must use regular year points before you can dip into the pool. The second said that was wrong that they use the first to expire points (ie...the pool). Only time will tell.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 4, 2017)

This is the part I *hope* is wrong.
_*- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)*_
We would want the deposited points to be used first.
Has anyone seen this spelled out anywhere?[/QUOTE]
This is what I was told when I called and asked about it. The VC wa


Kozman said:


> This is the part I *hope* is wrong.
> _*- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)*_
> We would want the deposited points to be used first.
> Has anyone seen this spelled out anywhere?



My DW spoke with two people at Wyndham. One said that you must use regular year points before you can dip into the pool. The second said that was wrong that they use the first to expire points (ie...the pool). Only time will tell.[/QUOTE]
Back when I was having issues getting into the new system (yes, me too), after that was resolved, I asked the VC about how deposited points would be used versus current year points.  I loved the credit pool and saw the new deposit process as restrictive.  I was told that current use year points were used first.  Deposited points have the same end date (12/31) as current year points, so unlike old pooled points, there is no expire first involved, deposited points and current year points are one in the same from an expiration date standpoint.  We recently purchase more developer points (yea, I know, bad), so I asked the sales person about this and after making some calls, the sales person confirmed my understanding.  At that time, I joined TUG (yea, I know, I'm late on that).  From TUG, I learned about the Phantom reservation process.   So, I have started that process for using 2018 points in the right order.  I knew that we were going to use XXX points for a vacation in May 2018.  And, I knew that I wanted to use those deposited points for that vacation.  So, I created a phantom reservation for late July 2018 that consumed all use year 2018 points except those that I needed for the May 2018 vacation.  2018 points available dropped as expected.  So, I made the deposit, it worked as planned, my 2018 points jumped with the addition of the deposited points to exactly what I needed for the planned 2018 vacation.  I'll be booking that soon.  After that, it will look like I have no points left for 2018.  Now, back to the phantom vacation.  At some point before 6/30/18 (my last date for making a deposit of use year 2018 points), I'll cancel that phantom reservation which used 2018 regular points.  I'll either use those points inn 2018 or deposit them into 2019 or 2020.  I'm covering my fanny on 2018 point usage because I was told 2 times that regular points were used before deposited points.  I HOPE that what I was told was wrong.  But, being told twice was enough for me to burn an RT on a phantom reservation.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> This is the part I *hope* is wrong.
> _*- You use 2019 points before you use 2017/2018 deposited points (as I understand it)*_
> We would want the deposited points to be used first.
> Has anyone seen this spelled out anywhere?


This is what I was told when I called and asked about it. The VC wa


My DW spoke with two people at Wyndham. One said that you must use regular year points before you can dip into the pool. The second said that was wrong that they use the first to expire points (ie...the pool). Only time will tell.[/QUOTE]
Back when I was having issues getting into the new system (yes, me too), after that was resolved, I asked the VC about how deposited points would be used versus current year points.  I loved the credit pool and saw the new deposit process as restrictive.  I was told that current use year points were used first.  Deposited points have the same end date (12/31) as current year points, so unlike old pooled points, there is no expire first involved, deposited points and current year points are one in the same from an expiration date standpoint.  We recently purchase more developer points (yea, I know, bad), so I asked the sales person about this and after making some calls, the sales person confirmed my understanding.  At that time, I joined TUG (yea, I know, I'm late on that).  From TUG, I learned about the Phantom reservation process.   So, I have started that process for using 2018 points in the right order.  I knew that we were going to use XXX points for a vacation in May 2018.  And, I knew that I wanted to use those deposited points for that vacation.  So, I created a phantom reservation for late July 2018 that consumed all use year 2018 points except those that I needed for the May 2018 vacation.  2018 points available dropped as expected.  So, I made the deposit, it worked as planned, my 2018 points jumped with the addition of the deposited points to exactly what I needed for the planned 2018 vacation.  I'll be booking that soon.  After that, it will look like I have no points left for 2018.  Now, back to the phantom vacation.  At some point before 6/30/18 (my last date for making a deposit of use year 2018 points), I'll cancel that phantom reservation which used 2018 regular points.  I'll either use those points inn 2018 or deposit them into 2019 or 2020.  I'm covering my fanny on 2018 point usage because I was told 2 times that regular points were used before deposited points.  I HOPE that what I was told was wrong.  But, being told twice was enough for me to burn an RT on a phantom reservation.[/QUOTE]

Good advice, thanks for spelling it out. 

It's just wrong that we have to jump through hoops to manage the points because WYN can't figure things out and/or do things right. 

In the old system I would tag phantom reservations with a particular owner (ie: I knew Susan's reservations were 2018 credit pooled points).  Kind of lost the ability to use that trick with the new system and gc requirement.


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## Braindead (Jul 4, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> As one of those who is STILL under the specter of suspension I can say with full confidence "Baloney."   Or similar words.
> 
> This is Wyndham's playground.  Always has been. Always will be.  They bear the burden of keeping the books and being accurate. They failed.  And rather than find out why and fix it, they suspended their best paying customers.  Voyager always has been profit driven.  The suspensions did not change that.  They have had almost a year and only a handful of accounts are resolved. And now numerous other owners (courtesy of the utter failure of the new website) are experiencing the stupidity of this company first hand.
> 
> ...


I hope you are as innocent as you come across. I have no reason to believe that your not innocent.
Wyndham does suspend accounts of owners for no reason. Several of us experienced that treatment when Voyager went live.

Presuming you have done nothing that would warrant your suspension. I have some questions to help us understand your situation.
What can you do with your account?
What can't you do ?
Did you make a lot of reservations with discounts and or upgrades ?
Did you cancel a lot of those reservations and receive more points back than you should have ? System generating points.
How much buying and selling did you do ?
What government agencies have you contacted ? If you have what is the current status?
Please state why if you haven't asked any government agencies for help ?
 I agree it is best to try and resolve your issues direct with Wyndham. Your past that point if your account is locked for no apparent reason.

It seemed AM1 was the most combative suspendee to a lot of us. He seems to of come to an agreement with Wyndham.
Curious to know what is so unique to your case.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I hope you are as innocent as you come across. I have no reason to believe that your not innocent.
> Wyndham does suspend accounts of owners for no reason. Several of us experienced that treatment when Voyager went live.
> 
> Presuming you have done nothing that would warrant your suspension. I have some questions to help us understand your situation.
> ...



 I think it all goes back to the trust being in danger of collapsing due to all the excess cancelled points and credit pooling that happened. Wyndham couldn't stop it in the old system so they pushed the new system out on the market not knowing how not ready it was. Think about it from a Wyndham Sales Manager's perspective. The Great Debacle has absolutely screwed his sales. he's got to be dying right now. This website is hurting Wyndham just as much as the owners. Half their sales come from existing owners. How many of us are ready to buy more points today? EVEN IF THEY WERE 10% OF WHAT THEY NORMALLY SELL THEM FOR WOULD YOU BUY? Me neither.

 Now is Wyndham taking advantage with Extra Holidays and such? Possibly, but we don't really know for sure. I wonder if any EH buyers got to a resort only to find no reservation ? The VC's are working with the same system we have and inventory is messed up completely. Does EH have a different database they get to reserve from? I highly doubt it. That's why there are so many EMPTY units when there shouldn't be any.

 It's going to be a long hot summer. Hope my spot in Sapphire Valley is there when I arrive Sunday and the Smokey Mountains on Thursday.


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## Braindead (Jul 4, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I think it all goes back to the trust being in danger of collapsing due to all the excess cancelled points and credit pooling that happened. Wyndham couldn't stop it in the old system so they pushed the new system out on the market not knowing how not ready it was. Think about it from a Wyndham Sales Manager's perspective. The Great Debacle has absolutely screwed his sales. he's got to be dying right now. This website is hurting Wyndham just as much as the owners. Half their sales come from existing owners. How many of us are ready to buy more points today? EVEN IF THEY WERE 10% OF WHAT THEY NORMALLY SELL THEM FOR WOULD YOU BUY? Me neither.
> 
> Now is Wyndham taking advantage with Extra Holidays and such? Possibly, but we don't really know for sure. I wonder if any EH buyers got to a resort only to find no reservation ? The VC's are working with the same system we have and inventory is messed up completely. Does EH have a different database they get to reserve from? I highly doubt it. That's why there are so many EMPTY units when there shouldn't be any.
> 
> It's going to be a long hot summer. Hope my spot in Sapphire Valley is there when I arrive Sunday and the Smokey Mountains on Thursday.


Agree with everything. But [always that but] give me a 90% off sale. Yes I will buy now !!
I think even all would have to agree to buy from Wyndham at 90% off. Forget resale
Like most I think the website will get fixed and I'll bet on it by buying at 90% off !!


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## 55plus (Jul 4, 2017)

I keep reading about the trust collapsing which forced Wyndham to cram the new dysfunction piece of crap website down our throats before it was ready for prime time. And it's due to us, the owners. If the website allowed the owners to do these things that made the trust collapse then it's Wyndham's fault and the owners should not have been punished by having their accounts suspended. It's Wyndham website, they designed it, they developed it so it's on them not the users. They own the issues they built into it. 

To shore up the trust all Wyndham had to do was buy up the resell points available on the market, TUG, eBay, etc. Instead they screwed some of the owners by freezing their accounts and screwed all the owners by launching that abortion of technology they call the new website. This is all on Wyndham, not any of the owners. It was Wyndham responsibility to ensure there weren't 'loopholes' in their website and all accounting of points were reconciled on a regular basis. It appears they slacked off, the owners got screwed and the Richard Craniums (politically correct term) at Wyndham got bonuses.


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## Roger830 (Jul 4, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> At some point before 6/30/18 (my last date for making a deposit of use year 2018 points), I'll cancel that phantom reservation which used 2018 regular points.  I'll either use those points inn 2018 or deposit them into 2019 or 2020.



Are you certain that you can deposit canceled 2018 points?

I recall before the website downgrade that someone had a problem credit pooling points from a canceled reservation that returned to the current use year.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 4, 2017)

Current Use Year points used for a reservation retain their original rights when a reservation is cancelled.  I was told that several times, also.  So, I'm hopeful that when I cancel the phantom reservation which used 2018 regular use year points that I will be able to deposit them into the future.  By then, all the issues with this piece of crap system (and corresponding rules) will be understood.  So, I've taken what I believe, today, to be the best action.


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I hope you are as innocent as you come across. I have no reason to believe that your not innocent.
> Wyndham does suspend accounts of owners for no reason.




We were all innocents. None of us did anything to deserve a suspension, much less to still have restricted accounts nearly a year later

There is no question in my mind but that Wyndham saw something they couldnt explain in one account, realized that this was probably not something unique, and then cast a wide net to find others... They shot first and a year later they are still asking questions


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## Braindead (Jul 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> We were all innocents. None of us did anything to deserve a suspension, much less to still have restricted accounts nearly a year later
> 
> There is no question in my mind but that Wyndham saw something they couldnt explain in one account, realized that this was probably not something unique, and then cast a wide net to find others... They shot first and a year later they are still asking questions


I hope you are right. That's why I asked the questions. 
I'm not pointing fingers and profess to not have knowledge of everything that was going on.

I will through out an example of what I think could be a possible wrong by an owner.
If an owner noticed that more points were being credited back on discounted and or upgraded reservations than should have.
Then took advantage of that knowledge by continuing to do so repeatedly and grew their points by exploiting the system.
I think that would be a willful wrong by an owner.
NOT SAYING ANYONE DID THAT just an example of a possible wrong of an owner


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2017)

Roger830 said:


> Are you certain that you can deposit canceled 2018 points?
> 
> I recall before the website downgrade that someone had a problem credit pooling points from a canceled reservation that returned to the current use year.




heres what I think will happen with the points deposit feature.  

You are able to deposit as many as all your points from one use year into either (or both) of the next two use years. (there is a "do it by date" depending on your VIP status) and once deposited, you cant do it again ie its a one time transaction. I dont think it makes any difference which points get used first you can deposit as many points as you own. 

Heres an example to show how I think it will work (similar to ARP question that was discussed in another thread)

Assume a non vip owner with 1,000,000 points. 
In march 2018 he realizes he wont use all his points for 2018 reservations so he deposits 250000 into 2019.  He now has 1,250,000 points to use for 2019 reservations. He has the right to deposit 1,000,000 of these points points into 2020

By March 2019  he has only placed 300,000 points in 2019 reservations and has no plans for any more 2019 vacations. so he has 950,000 points he can put into 2020 or 2021


In my opinion, it dosnt matter what points come from what year. Every year you have the right to deposit, up to as many points as you own, into future years. 


at least thats the way I think its supposed to work


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> heres what I think will happen with the points deposit feature.
> 
> You are able to deposit as many as all your points from one use year into either (or both) of the next two use years. (there is a "do it by date" depending on your VIP status) and once deposited, you cant do it again ie its a one time transaction. I dont think it makes any difference which points get used first you can deposit as many points as you own.
> 
> ...



I did not think we could redeposit points.  One shot at that. 

Therefore, my suggestion that deposited points really should be used first.

Page 6 of the 2017-18 supplement:  Deposited points will expire at the end of the use year selected and may not be moved again.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 4, 2017)

In my opinion, it dosnt matter what points come from what year. Every year you have the right to deposit, up to as many points as you own, into future years. 

at least thats the way I think its supposed to work
==================
You may think that and I also think that it *should *work that way, but, I was told differently, 2 times.  I took your advice from another thread and created a phantom reservation to protect my 2018 points.  I'll be using those deposited points for a May 2018 reservation this week.


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2017)

Roger830 said:


> Are you certain that you can deposit canceled 2018 points?
> 
> I recall before the website downgrade that someone had a problem credit pooling points from a canceled reservation that returned to the current use year.




heres what I think will happen with the points deposit feature.

You are able to deposit as many as all your points from one use year into either (or both) of the next two use years. (there is a "do it by date" depending on your VIP status) and once deposited, you cant do it again ie its a one time transaction. I dont think it makes any difference which points get used first you can deposit as many points as you own.

Heres an example to show how I think it will work (similar to ARP question that was discussed in another thread)

Assume a non vip owner with 1,000,000 points.
In march 2018 he realizes he wont use all his points for 2018 reservations so he deposits 250000 into 2019.  He now has 1,250,000 points to use for 2019 reservations. He has the right to deposit 1,000,000 of these points points into 2020

By March 2019  he has only placed 300,000 points in 2019 reservations and has no plans for any more 2019 vacations. so he has 950,000 points he can put into 2020 or 2021


In my opinion, it dosnt matter what points come from what year. Every year you have the right to deposit, up to as many points as you own, into future years.


at least thats the way I think its supposed to work


Sandi Bo said:


> I did not think we could redeposit points.  One shot at that.
> 
> Therefore, my suggestion that deposited points really should be used first.
> 
> Page 6 of the 2017-18 supplement:  Deposited points will expire at the end of the use year selected and may not be moved again.



I'm not suggesting a redeposit of points

I'm thinking that we can deposit up to our annual allocation of points. So if you own a million points you can deposit up to a million ie if in 2017 you deposit 250000 points into 2018 (giving you 1,250,000 points to use in 2018)
If you use only 250000 points in 2018, you can deposit the remaining 1 million.

If you only use 150000 you can deposit the million and you will lose 100000

If you use a million you will be  able to deposit the 250000


I think this is the way it should work. It's essentially the way we think arp will work. But who knows?


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> heres what I think will happen with the points deposit feature.
> 
> You are able to deposit as many as all your points from one use year into either (or both) of the next two use years. (there is a "do it by date" depending on your VIP status) and once deposited, you cant do it again ie its a one time transaction. I dont think it makes any difference which points get used first you can deposit as many points as you own.
> 
> ...



Again, I was told that you use your 2018 points before you use points you deposited into 2018.  With your example, if you had 1.25MM points in 2018 (1MM regular and .25MM deposited) and only booked 1MM points for 2018, you'd be using 2018 use year points.  If your failed to book the other .25MM for use in 2018, they are gone at the end of 2018.  No moving to RCI, no redepositing.  They are LOST.  I was told this by a VC and by a sales person (one who had no reason to lie to me about this bad scenario).  I plan on finagling the system to ensure my deposited points are used first.  While I agree with your should, I'm not counting on it.


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## paxsarah (Jul 4, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> (one who had no reason to lie to me about this bad scenario).



There's a difference between someone lying versus simply BSing or sharing what they think will happen based on past experience or lack of understanding. In another thread, another TUGer reported that a VC confidently told her that cancellations come back within seconds - because apparently the VC had never had the opportunity to cancel and wait for the reappearance of a unit since the new website went live. I'm sure the VC thought they were stating fact, but  based on all of the anecdotal evidence collected here, they were completely wrong. So unless the salesperson or VC had actually personally executed a points deposit transaction themselves, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be correct on the details of a brand-new process. I think Ron is onto something, and it makes sense given how ARP is supposed to (and appears to actually, given the current flakiness of the system) work.

Now, if some VIP here has used points deposit to move their 2017 points to 2018 or 2019 and can tell us how they show up in their account - for instance, do they have a single use year showing for 1/1/18-12/31/18 or two use years with identical dates? I think the former would also bolster Ron's theory. But then, another point of information will come when the deposit window opens for 2018 points in January. Then someone with deposited points would be able to see how many points from 2018 are eligible for deposit into 2019 or 2020, and that should provide an answer.


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## wjappraise (Jul 4, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I hope you are as innocent as you come across. I have no reason to believe that your not innocent.
> Wyndham does suspend accounts of owners for no reason. Several of us experienced that treatment when Voyager went live.
> 
> Presuming you have done nothing that would warrant your suspension. I have some questions to help us understand your situation.
> ...



Interesting take. . . Here goes a response, with some "cut and paste" from a prior post updating my situation.  Just a foreward:  I do not consider myself innocent or guilty, simply an owner who bought and bought and bought.  Both the promises, and the contracts.

My long national nightmare began on January 3, 2016, when I called the VIP line to get some reservations made using my credit pooled points.  I spoke with a kind, but incompetent VC named Michelle.  She made the reservations, after I specifically told her to use the Credit Pooled points.  So when she came back and said it was all done, I asked to verify that the points came from Credit Pool.  Her response was "Oops, let me go back and change that."  While she was on the line, I accessed my account and attempted to make a Presidential Reserve reservation, and the computer told me I had 0 PR points, so I know which points she had used.  When she came back and said she had fixed it, I asked her to stay with me while I checked.  The result was no PR points, so I told her it was not fixed.  She said it may take 48 hours to reflect in may account.  I knew that would be true only for the points showing on the website, not for the ability to use the points.  As she had grown impatient, I let her go.  The next day, the points status confirmed my suspicion.  I called the VIP line again and got Michelle again, she said she checked and everything was ok, and would not look back into it.  So, I started cancelling a bunch of my reservations, and rebooking them in the hopes that some of my point from one quarter would move forward to the next quarter.  That seemed to work as I was able to make the PR reservations I wanted.  The next day - WHOA, my account showed 12 million more points than it should have, all PR points.  I called the VIP line again, and left my concerns with the rep (don't remember his name).  He said he would have Michelle run a full audit of my account.  The next day Michelle called me, and was very annoyed I had complained about her.  She said the full audit was done and my account was exactly correct.  I said, "how can that be, as I have over 12 million points more than I should?"  She stated flatly that I had the correct amount.

Then in March of 2016 I was contacted by Owner Care as I kept getting reservations cancelled due to exceeding the 10 units per night.  I had used ARP for the majority of the rooms we use for our once a year reunion at Bonnet Creek over Thanksgiving.  I had been told the ARP units did NOT count toward the ten unit limit.  And all of the reservations I had made that were not ARP during the months of January and February to add to the ARP units were fine.  But when I tried adding a 3 br Presidential, OC kept cancelling it the next day and sending me a nasty email.  I would just go in and re-book the room - See, I told you I was not innocent - and they would cancel it the next day.  Long story short, they sicced their attorney on me.  After wrangling back and forth with him (this was my first exposure to the fact that Wyndham's attorneys do not call the shots, Owner Care does, and he was simply a lap dog for OC), I told him "you have much bigger problems than my trying to reserve another room, I now have over 20 million excess points in my account."  It appears the making and cancelling of my desired 3 br Presidential had the impact of adding mystery points to my account.  Every day they would cancel my reservation, it apparently added extra points to my account.  So the lap dog said he would report it to Owner Care (I have his email stating this) and get it resolved.  NEVER GOT RESOLVED.  I stopped trying to book that reservation, but still had a glut of points.

Fast forward to August 2016, the day after I paid by MF fees for the month, I logged in but could not see my reservations, nor make a reservation.  My account said it was locked due to not paying my MF.  I spent three days back and forth on the phone with Financial Services before someone thought to check with OC, and found out I had been suspended, not for non-payment for "irregularities on my account balance"  THEY EVEN LIED ON THE LOGIN SCREEN as to the reason for my suspension.  How tough is it to be honest and say "Your account has been suspended, please call this number. . . .?"  They simply cannot be honest with owners.

Here is the prior posting stating my account progress since August 2016:

1. I cannot sell any of my contracts due to a ten-month long suspension for inaccuracies in Wyndham's points accounting.
2. I was first suspended in August 2016, and did not hear from anyone for a week, then a Wyndham attorney contacted me and promised a resolution to the matter in "less than two weeks." Nothing was resolved.
3. I next heard from another Wyndham rep at the end of September 2016 after being suspended for six weeks, that I would be allowed to have limited internet access, to simply view my reservations and only during the hours of 8am-8pm M-F, 9am-6pm Saturday and Sunday. I would still need to call in to place guest names on reservations, being forced to pay $129 per transaction.
4. At this same September phone call I was told my use years would be realigned. I did not want this, but I accepted it and was told I would have them realigned to my preferred anniversary date of 10/01. They were realigned with anniversary date of 01/01 which is the absolute worst date for me, and opposite to what I was told would happen.
5. I received an email in October 2016 stating that I would now have greater online access, including being able to make reservations, cancellations, guest name additions. However, I would be unable to credit pool points, sell contracts, or buy contracts, as well as use points to pay maintenance fees.
6. I emailed the special email address literally DOZENS of times over the next few months trying to get the anniversary date rectified. NOT ONE EMAIL WAS GIVEN THE COURTESY OF A RESPONSE.
7. Even though the use years were realigned, I was NOT given pro-rated points to make up for the lost points.
8. I called the special 877- number set up for those of us in this status, left voice mails. NOT ONE VOICE MAIL WAS GIVEN THE COURTESY OF A RESPONSE.
9. My suspension caused me to miss my window of opportunity to use ARP for my Presidential Reserve ownership at Bonnet Creek over Thanksgiving. I use 75% of my points for a large reunion there every year, it is the sole reason for my owning a platinum PR membership.
10. My last email contact from ANYONE involved in this case was October 2016.
11. My last phone contact from ANYONE involved in this case was September 2016.
12. I have NO UPDATES at all for EIGHT months, until I got an email last week requesting a time to "chat" about my account.
13. The new website shows that I have -6,284,000 points. That is a NEGATIVE 6 million points.
14. The new website has removed my name from the ownership role, and my son's name is listed as primary owner now (derivation of my name).
15. No one is willing to help to get this resolved.
16. Wyndham keeps emailing us telling us about the "exciting" new changes for the new website.
17. My bill for May 2017 included two additional $99 fees for guest names added. These had already been paid at time of adding the names. I had no choice but to pay the disputed amount to keep my account from being frozen for non-payment.
18. In January, an extra contract was added to my account which I had not purchased (no contracts could be added) but I had to pay the MFs of this new contract for four months, until Wyndham finally removed it (it was supposed to be for some new owner, same name as my wife). NO REFUND.

And now currently, I was contacted by another Wyndham attorney who identified himself on the phone (with an unidentified OC rep listening in).  I filled these two with what has happened to me for the past year and a half, and they promised to get right back to me.  You guessed it, no calls back or emails since that time, three weeks ago.

So, I expect no pity from you, but a bit of understanding would be appreciated.  When you go off half-cocked and blame those of us who were suspended for the roll out of the horrific website, I go a bit "postal" in my responses.  Can you understand that?

My account has partial uses allowed.  I can book, cancel, add guest names.  I CANNOT credit pool, buy more contracts, or sell the contracts I own.  I have a contract I purchased prior to August 2016 that is a 1 million PR (resale. . . . I do learn).  That account has been just sitting there, I cannot get it to use, even though a new deed has been recorded.  I have no idea if the seller is still paying the MFs, or if the account is in arrears.  I simply cannot bring myself to pick up the phone and call the seller to see.  Title services will only say (as if scripted) "this contract is being researched."  Why can't they tell the truth?

The majority of my prior reservations were ones that I would use cancel and rebook to get a better rate.  The majority of the reservations were used by myself, my extended family, or an ever-growing group of friends.  I would offer a few reservations (ten a year or so) via Redbook.  The greatest frenzy of cancelling reservations was during the month of March 2016 as I fought to get that extra 3 br Presidential unit.
I have contacted ARDA, Florida AG, and Compliance department.  The best I got from Florida AG was "get out if you can, these are not good people."

There. . . hope you are satisfied with my purging.  Now can you back off the baseless accusations that I somehow am to blame for the rushed website?

PS - All my extra points I either let expire, or moved to RCI so there would be a "digital trail" for Wyndham to use when they did come looking.  I kept screen shots of the various use years with the expiring points showing the day before year end (3/31, 6/30, 9/30, 12/31).  I had all four use years.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

55plus said:


> I keep reading about the trust collapsing which forced Wyndham to cram the new dysfunction piece of crap website down our throats before it was ready for prime time. And it's due to us, the owners. If the website allowed the owners to do these things that made the trust collapse then it's Wyndham's fault and the owners should not have been punished by having their accounts suspended. It's Wyndham website, they designed it, they developed it so it's on them not the users. They own the issues they built into it.
> 
> To shore up the trust all Wyndham had to do was buy up the resell points available on the market, TUG, eBay, etc. Instead they screwed some of the owners by freezing their accounts and screwed all the owners by launching that abortion of technology they call the new website. This is all on Wyndham, not any of the owners. It was Wyndham responsibility to ensure there weren't 'loopholes' in their website and all accounting of points were reconciled on a regular basis. It appears they slacked off, the owners got screwed and the Richard Craniums (politically correct term) at Wyndham got bonuses.



Nobody has said anything about the owners being at fault for this fiasco except maybe for Wyndham, and they know now it wasn't the owners that caused the problems. It was the software. Now, let's call a spade a spade. With all the owners of Wyndham don't you think some of them figured out how to get extra points  in their account? And then abused the crap out of that software error if they were a big renter? And then told a few of their friends? Of course they did. That led to Wyndham suspending everybody last summer because there was way too many available points vs available inventory. To Wyndham, anybody who got extra cancellation points was guilty which was wrong but they suspended them anyway. Ill bet dollars to donuts the trust was BILLIONS of points out of whack.

 Now you have to remember that the extra cancellation points error didn't distinguish accounts. Some people exploited it. Thousands of other accounts just had them appear due to the software. Wyndham cannot point to one or the other and KNOW it was done on purpose. They can't figure out how it is happening . The trust is going to go belly up. They HAVE to do something. Her comes Voyager ready or not and a whole new fiasco. But Wyndham can live with this one. Maybe. If they get the damn thing fixed.

 I will agree this is Wyndham's fault, but we would be living in a fantasy world if we didn't believe some took advantage of the software loophole. Yes, people got suspended and couldn't use their points and I think it was done to keep them from collapsing the trust as much as to punish owners Wyndham felt were cheating. I think most of the people that got suspended still have no idea why. My guess is at some point they got extra points from a cancelled reservation and Wyndham branded them cheaters with no proof whatsoever they did anything wrong. But there are others that got suspended and knew exactly why. I do not think they frequent TUG because I never saw a post about how to get extra points in your account.

 Finally , we need to ask ourselves where would we be today if Wyndham did NOT do anything. What would happen in the case of a collapsed trust? I am not sure but I bet it is a lot worse than the Great Debacle of a website we have to deal with.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Interesting take. . . Here goes a response, with some "cut and paste" from a prior post updating my situation.  Just a foreward:  I do not consider myself innocent or guilty, simply an owner who bought and bought and bought.  Both the promises, and the contracts.
> 
> My long national nightmare began on January 3, 2016, when I called the VIP line to get some reservations made using my credit pooled points.  I spoke with a kind, but incompetent VC named Michelle.  She made the reservations, after I specifically told her to use the Credit Pooled points.  So when she came back and said it was all done, I asked to verify that the points came from Credit Pool.  Her response was "Oops, let me go back and change that."  While she was on the line, I accessed my account and attempted to make a Presidential Reserve reservation, and the computer told me I had 0 PR points, so I know which points she had used.  When she came back and said she had fixed it, I asked her to stay with me while I checked.  The result was no PR points, so I told her it was not fixed.  She said it may take 48 hours to reflect in may account.  I knew that would be true only for the points showing on the website, not for the ability to use the points.  As she had grown impatient, I let her go.  The next day, the points status confirmed my suspicion.  I called the VIP line again and got Michelle again, she said she checked and everything was ok, and would not look back into it.  So, I started cancelling a bunch of my reservations, and rebooking them in the hopes that some of my point from one quarter would move forward to the next quarter.  That seemed to work as I was able to make the PR reservations I wanted.  The next day - WHOA, my account showed 12 million more points than it should have, all PR points.  I called the VIP line again, and left my concerns with the rep (don't remember his name).  He said he would have Michelle run a full audit of my account.  The next day Michelle called me, and was very annoyed I had complained about her.  She said the full audit was done and my account was exactly correct.  I said, "how can that be, as I have over 12 million points more than I should?"  She stated flatly that I had the correct amount.
> 
> ...



 This is exactly what I am talking about when I say Wyndham is blaming the owners for cheating and owner's not knowing why they were suspended. You kept making that 3BR reservation and they kept cancelling it creating MILLIONS of extra points in your account. You even TOLD them about the situation. Here come the silos. OC says your account is fine. Upper management says you're cheating by making that reservation every day. All you want is the 3BR for Thanksgiving. You get a suspension instead. You just might be Patient Zero in this whole fiasco.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 4, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> Now, if some VIP here has used points deposit to move their 2017 points to 2018 or 2019 and can tell us how they show up in their account - for instance, do they have a single use year showing for 1/1/18-12/31/18 or two use years with identical dates? I think the former would also bolster Ron's theory. But then, another point of information will come when the deposit window opens for 2018 points in January. Then someone with deposited points would be able to see how many points from 2018 are eligible for deposit into 2019 or 2020, and that should provide an answer.


I am a lowly Silver VIP with 414,000 annual points.  My Jan 01,2018 - Dec 31, 2018 had 414,000 points on 6/15/17.  After reviewing all the advice/understandings and after talking to VC and a Salesperson, I booked a 'phantom' reservation for 7/9/18 that used 170,000 2018 ARP CWA points, leaving 244,000 in that 2018 bucket.  On 6/21/17, I deposited 140,000 2017 points into 2018.  After that deposit, and still today, I have 384,000 points.  By looking at the points calculator, I can see that 168,000 points are available for 13mo ARP at Grand Desert and that 76,000 points are available for ARP at CWA......a total of 244,000 points.  I presume that the remaining 140,000 points in the generic 2018 bucket are the points I deposited on 6/21/17.  Over the next 2 weeks, I'll be using all of the 384,000 points for 2018 reservations.  I'll have nothing left for 2018 except what I expect to get back when I cancel the 'phantom' reservation (170,000 2018 CWA points).  And, I have no plans for cancelling that until I have a specific 2018 need or until I get ready to deposit them into 2019 or 2020.  So, while I am testing the process, I am doing what I feel I have to do to protect those 170,000 2018 points.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2017)

I completely understand your desire to protect the usability of your points in this situation based on what you've been told, especially given that I don't think anyone yet knows exactly how the system will work in practice vs theory/policy (and we're still unclear on the theory/policy). But it will take an account that hasn't had its points tied up in this way to truly test out Ron's scenario, and I don't think it will become clear until we reach the deposit window for 2018 points after 1/1/18.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> I completely understand your desire to protect the usability of your points in this situation based on what you've been told, especially given that I don't think anyone yet knows exactly how the system will work in practice vs theory/policy (and we're still unclear on the theory/policy). But it will take an account that hasn't had its points tied up in this way to truly test out Ron's scenario, and I don't think it will become clear until we reach the deposit window for 2018 points after 1/1/18.


As noted previously, I had 384,000 points for 2018 use year that included 140,000 deposited points.  I booked part 1 of my 2 part May 2018 vacation early this morning using 181,000 points.  My balance dropped to 203,000 as expected. I went snooping to see if I could figure out source details on those remaining points.  The only definitive thing I saw that caught my attention was that I could deposit all 203,000 2018 points into RCI.  I stopped 1 click short of doing that.  Interesting.  Either the 140,000 2017 points deposited into 2018 were used in booking the 181,000 point vacation OR you can push deposited points into RCI.  Both of those options are counter to what I was told.  Either would be good news.  I just wish Wyndham would come clean and tell us EXACTLY what is going on with deposited points.  It's just not right to leave this as an open discussion.  Unsuspecting owners could lose points due to this lack of information.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> As noted previously, I had 384,000 points for 2018 use year that included 140,000 deposited points.  I booked part 1 of my 2 part May 2018 vacation early this morning using 181,000 points.  My balance dropped to 203,000 as expected. I went snooping to see if I could figure out source details on those remaining points.  The only definitive thing I saw that caught my attention was that I could deposit all 203,000 2018 points into RCI.  I stopped 1 click short of doing that.  Interesting.  Either the 140,000 2017 points deposited into 2018 were used in booking the 181,000 point vacation OR you can push deposited points into RCI.  Both of those options are counter to what I was told.  Either would be good news.  I just wish Wyndham would come clean and tell us EXACTLY what is going on with deposited points.  It's just not right to leave this as an open discussion.  Unsuspecting owners could lose points due to this lack of information.





CYRUS2400 said:


> As noted previously, I had 384,000 points for 2018 use year that included 140,000 deposited points.  I booked part 1 of my 2 part May 2018 vacation early this morning using 181,000 points.  My balance dropped to 203,000 as expected. I went snooping to see if I could figure out source details on those remaining points.  The only definitive thing I saw that caught my attention was that I could deposit all 203,000 2018 points into RCI.  I stopped 1 click short of doing that.  Interesting.  Either the 140,000 2017 points deposited into 2018 were used in booking the 181,000 point vacation OR you can push deposited points into RCI.  Both of those options are counter to what I was told.  Either would be good news.  I just wish Wyndham would come clean and tell us EXACTLY what is going on with deposited points.  It's just not right to leave this as an open discussion.  Unsuspecting owners could lose points due to this lack of information.


My money's on it's not fully vetted yet.  Doubtful WYN really knows how it's going to work (let alone has it programmed correctly).  I wish I was joking, but I really am not. I have no faith in WYN fully understanding what they are doing or how they are going to do it.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> My money's on it's not fully vetted yet.  Doubtful WYN really knows how it's going to work (let alone has it programmed correctly).  I wish I was joking, but I really am not. I have no faith in WYN fully understanding what they are doing or how they are going to do it.


SO SAD.  And the ones who lose, short term.  Owners.  SO SAD.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> My money's on it's not fully vetted yet.  Doubtful WYN really knows how it's going to work (let alone has it programmed correctly).  I wish I was joking, but I really am not. I have no faith in WYN fully understanding what they are doing or how they are going to do it.



And that's why, honestly, I'm not inclined to trust information gleaned from VCs or salespeople on some of these completely new mechanisms until they're independently verified in practice by TUGers here. I know the folks here have been systematically putting the new system through its paces (something Wyndham clearly didn't adequately do before releasing it) to try to quantify exactly what's going on. And that may or may not change, since we don't know what's intentionally programmed a certain way vs. a glitch, and we don't know if or how long it will take Wyndham to fix the things that they consider errors. But as (if?) things settle out, all of the poking and prodding that people are doing will get us a pretty good picture of how things are actually working.


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> As noted previously, I had 384,000 points for 2018 use year that included 140,000 deposited points.  I booked part 1 of my 2 part May 2018 vacation early this morning using 181,000 points.  My balance dropped to 203,000 as expected. I went snooping to see if I could figure out source details on those remaining points.  The only definitive thing I saw that caught my attention was that I could deposit all 203,000 2018 points into RCI.  I stopped 1 click short of doing that.  Interesting.  Either the 140,000 2017 points deposited into 2018 were used in booking the 181,000 point vacation OR you can push deposited points into RCI.  Both of those options are counter to what I was told.  Either would be good news.  I just wish Wyndham would come clean and tell us EXACTLY what is going on with deposited points.  It's just not right to leave this as an open discussion.  Unsuspecting owners could lose points due to this lack of information.


Deposited points are suppose to be a use them or lose them proposition.
Your deposited points are working similar to ARP. 
Your deposited points and regular points ended up as 1 bucket of points available for 2018.
The system has been programmed to let you deposit up to your total use year points.
That may change as the system gets tweaked. But the way it works today you don't need to protect those points with phantom reservations.
As paxsarah has stated in the past. This makes for a cleaner system and some actually save GCs by not having to make phantom reservations.
Wyndham actually deserves a pat on the back if ARP and point deposit feature continue to work in this manner


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Deposited points are suppose to be a use them or lose them proposition.
> Your deposited points are working similar to ARP.
> Your deposited points and regular points ended up as 1 bucket of points available for 2018.
> The system has been programmed to let you deposit up to your total use year points.
> ...


Where is all of this written?  Who tested?  I'm not taking chances with something that is not spelled out or for which there is not adequate experience/consensus.  I give Wyndham NO credit (or pat on the back) for creating this restrictive deposit feature when the credit pool worked just fine for us low point owners.


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## Roger830 (Jul 5, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Deposited points are suppose to be a use them or lose them proposition.
> Your deposited points are working similar to ARP.
> Your deposited points and regular points ended up as 1 bucket of points available for 2018.
> The system has been programmed to let you deposit up to your total use year points.
> ...



It's my understanding that CYRUS2400 made the phantom 2018 reservation so that points now deposited in 2018 will be used for the next reservation and not lost at the end of the use year.

Then the phantom reservation will be canceled and some of those canceled points might be deposited in a future year, 2019 or 2020.


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> Where is all of this written?  Who tested?  I'm not taking chances with something that is not spelled out or for which there is not adequate experience/consensus.  I give Wyndham NO credit (or pat on the back) for creating this restrictive deposit feature when the credit pool worked just fine for us low point owners.





Roger830 said:


> It's my understanding that CYRUS2400 made the phantom 2018 reservation so that points now deposited in 2018 will be used for the next reservation and not lost at the end of the use year.
> 
> Then the phantom reservation will be canceled and some of those canceled points might be deposited in a future year, 2019 or 2020.


Several of us have made ARP reservations with credit pool points for 2018. Proven on how ARP works today.
I understand the phantom reservation made. That's what helped to understand the status of the points deposited. That phantom reservation that CYRUS2400 made proves how the point deposit feature is working today.

I didn't say I like the new rules. But they are here to stay. The way the system is currently working is the best case scenario for the owners.
Actually is as user friendly Wyndham could make it work under the current rules


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> *Where is all of this written?*  Who tested?  I'm not taking chances with something that is not spelled out or for which there is not adequate experience/consensus.  I give Wyndham NO credit (or pat on the back) for creating this restrictive deposit feature when the credit pool worked just fine for us low point owners.



Actually, this reminded me that I had sent a feedback question to Wyndham early after the new site went live, and later got an email response from them. Here is the correspondence:



			
				I said:
			
		

> Comments: I have a question about the new points deposit feature. I understand that points deposited to a future year will have the same expiration date as my regular use year points in that year. As I then make Standard and Express reservations in that future year, which batch of points is used first? I would hope that it's the points that were moved using the points deposit feature, since they are less flexible and cannot be moved again. Then I would have the option to deposit my regular UY points via points deposit (if early in the year) or RCI (if late in the year). Is this how it will work?





			
				Wyndham said:
			
		

> Thank you for your email.  I apologize for the delayed response to your query.
> 
> With our new enhancements, it is no longer necessary to have a particular set of points used over others. Usage is now based on benefits, not points types. Our new system keeps track of what benefits you have utilized as well as total points.



Which goes along with what Braindead and Ron have been stating. Your question "Who tested?" still doesn't have much of an answer yet in terms of points deposit, so even though I like this answer and I hope that it works and continues to work this way, I'm not going to relax and fully accept it as canon until I see some more users actually experiencing it in practice. (Since all of my 2017 and 2018 regular UY points are spoken for, I won't need to try it until after many others will have certainly confirmed or denied how it works.) But I have personally seen it for ARP, and it will make a lot of sense to me if points deposit works the same way.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2017)

And actually, considering how much of the new system seems to be poorly planned and/or not working properly, this solution actually seems fairly elegant and creative and at least kind of sort of working to some extent (for ARP, mainly). The ARP question has been an issue for people in the past (i.e. wanting to save a particular contract's points for a late in the year ARP reservation) and they clearly recognized that and developed a solution that I suspect is much simpler under the hood. While I still very much dislike the new limitations of the points deposit feature, I can appreciate its simplicity and how easily it can be tied in with the way they're handling ARP by benefits rather than points buckets. If everything is working correctly. Which, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> Actually, this reminded me that I had sent a feedback question to Wyndham early after the new site went live, and later got an email response from them. Here is the correspondence:
> With our new enhancements, it is no longer necessary to have a particular set of points used over others. Usage is now based on benefits, not points types. Our new system keeps track of what benefits you have utilized as well as total points
> ====================
> I guess I'm dense as I don't see where they answered your very specific question as to which is used first.  They talk about benefits and this makes sense for ARP, I've seen that.  What is the benefit for Deposited Points other than they are more restrictive than the credit pool?  Used first, used last, can can deposit to RCI, when is the 'benefit' used or lost?  My last plea (I promise), maybe someone can point me to the actual Deposited Points Benefit page where my simple, and your simple question, is *clearly* answered?  To me, it just looks like the response was more Wyndham Double Speak.  My 2018 points are not fully planned, so I'm taking no chances.  I'll sit on that Phantom reservation until I need the points OR until this is CLEARLY spelled out OR until I have to make another deposit decision (on 6/30/18).


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## Nomad34 (Jul 5, 2017)

One of the last sales pitches was "you have 192k 105k and 105k so you will be limited in making reservations as you have been able to use the total before but now that will no longer work as each contract will be treated individually"  Again trying to sell me CWA which I continually refuse.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> I guess I'm dense as I don't see where they answered your very specific question as to which is used first. They talk about benefits and this makes sense for ARP, I've seen that. What is the benefit for Deposited Points other than they are more restrictive than the credit pool? Used first, used last, can can deposit to RCI, when is the 'benefit' used or lost? My last plea (I promise), maybe someone can point me to the actual Deposited Points Benefit page where my simple, and your simple question, is *clearly* answered? To me, it just looks like the response was more Wyndham Double Speak. My 2018 points are not fully planned, so I'm taking no chances. I'll sit on that Phantom reservation until I need the points OR until this is CLEARLY spelled out OR until I have to make another deposit decision (on 6/30/18).



I agree that the response is vague, which is probably why I filed the email from Wyndham away without much thought when I got it a few weeks ago. But in rereading it, it jibes exactly with what Braindead and Ron have been saying.

When it comes to the points deposit feature, here is the benefit: you are able to deposit points up to the amount of your regular use year points issued in any given year. I think the way it helps for me to look at it is that the benefit isn't associated with any bucket of points (e.g. UY points or deposited points), but with your account itself. My account in 2018 carries the following benefits: the ability to ARP reservations of up to 52,500 points in Myrtle Beach, the ability to ARP reservations of up to 63,000 points at Pagosa Springs, the ability to deposit 115,500 points into RCI or to another year in Wyndham using points deposit. If I have points available in the use year 1/1/2018-12/31/2018, I should be able to do any of those things, up to those limits, with them. There are no buckets of points used first or last, there are only benefits that exist up to some point limit based upon the contracts in your account. (I think there's some inconsistency with how old-school credit pooled points behave, but I'm guessing they're just leaving it that way because they'll be out of the system in a few years and aren't worth programming around.)

Is this clearly spelled out anywhere? No. They have not spelled this out anywhere in writing, as best I can tell. Am I advising that you drop your phantom reservation and trust that this will work properly? No, especially since you've already made the reservation. It *should* work this way, but we just haven't had a chance to see enough examples of real-life use to be sure. Again, I don't blame you for hedging your bets. Nothing is fully clear yet. But my bet is that in the future, a phantom reservation like the one you made is unnecessary if the system works the way it seems to be intended to.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> Is this clearly spelled out anywhere? No. They have not spelled this out anywhere in writing, as best I can tell.


This is key, and I really appreciate the response.  Time will tell, so I will assume nothing other than what I can see in 'clear speak' writing from Wyndham regarding the points deposit feature.  For 2018, I believe I have adequately 'protected' 170,000 Use Year 2018 CWA points.  Maybe they will see the error of their ways and give us the Credit Pool back.....it worked.....for me.....


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> This is key, and I really appreciate the response.  Time will tell, so I will assume nothing other than what I can see in 'clear speak' writing from Wyndham regarding the points deposit feature.  For 2018, I believe I have adequately 'protected' 170,000 Use Year 2018 CWA points.  Maybe they will see the error of their ways and give us the Credit Pool back.....it worked.....for me.....


I think it was posted that in the new supplement to the directory.
Something to effect that it is no longer necessary to track your points from individual contracts


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 5, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I think it was posted that in the new supplement to the directory.
> Something to effect that it is no longer necessary to track your points from individual contracts


The system is tracking points from contracts, I see that in the points calculator, but, it's not tracking Deposited Points.  And, that is all that I'm concerned about at this point in time.


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> The system is tracking points from contracts, I see that in the points calculator, but, it's not tracking Deposited Points.  And, that is all that I'm concerned about at this point in time.


I think you are confusing points allocated at each home resort verses the actual contracts


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## Nomad34 (Jul 5, 2017)

What is the difference? Mine are all points based versus fixed week changed to points. Sales have said Fairfield tricked me into thinking I had deeds as they are all listed UDI.


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## comicbookman (Jul 5, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> What is the difference? Mine are all points based versus fixed week changed to points. Sales have said Fairfield tricked me into thinking I had deeds as they are all listed UDI.



UDI points is just a way of representing, or expressing what portion of the resort you own.  You still have a deed.  It just says x points out of xxxx points is what you own, rather than week # of unit y.


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> Where is all of this written?  Who tested?  I'm not taking chances with something that is not spelled out or for which there is not adequate experience/consensus.  I give Wyndham NO credit (or pat on the back) for creating this restrictive deposit feature when the credit pool worked just fine for us low point owners.





Nomad34 said:


> One of the last sales pitches was "you have 192k 105k and 105k so you will be limited in making reservations as you have been able to use the total before but now that will no longer work as each contract will be treated individually"  Again trying to sell me CWA which I continually refuse.





cayman01 said:


> Nobody has said anything about the owners being at fault for this fiasco except maybe for Wyndham, and they know now it wasn't the owners that caused the problems. It was the software. Now, let's call a spade a spade. With all the owners of Wyndham don't you think some of them figured out how to get extra points  in their account? And then abused the crap out of that software error if they were a big renter? And then told a few of their friends? Of course they did. That led to Wyndham suspending everybody last summer because there was way too many available points vs available inventory. To Wyndham, anybody who got extra cancellation points was guilty which was wrong but they suspended them anyway. Ill bet dollars to donuts the trust was BILLIONS of points out of whack.
> 
> Now you have to remember that the extra cancellation points error didn't distinguish accounts. Some people exploited it. Thousands of other accounts just had them appear due to the software. Wyndham cannot point to one or the other and KNOW it was done on purpose. They can't figure out how it is happening . The trust is going to go belly up. They HAVE to do something. Her comes Voyager ready or not and a whole new fiasco. But Wyndham can live with this one. Maybe. If they get the damn thing fixed.
> 
> ...





wjappraise said:


> Interesting take. . . Here goes a response, with some "cut and paste" from a prior post updating my situation.  Just a foreward:  I do not consider myself innocent or guilty, simply an owner who bought and bought and bought.  Both the promises, and the contracts.
> 
> My long national nightmare began on January 3, 2016, when I called the VIP line to get some reservations made using my credit pooled points.  I spoke with a kind, but incompetent VC named Michelle.  She made the reservations, after I specifically told her to use the Credit Pooled points.  So when she came back and said it was all done, I asked to verify that the points came from Credit Pool.  Her response was "Oops, let me go back and change that."  While she was on the line, I accessed my account and attempted to make a Presidential Reserve reservation, and the computer told me I had 0 PR points, so I know which points she had used.  When she came back and said she had fixed it, I asked her to stay with me while I checked.  The result was no PR points, so I told her it was not fixed.  She said it may take 48 hours to reflect in may account.  I knew that would be true only for the points showing on the website, not for the ability to use the points.  As she had grown impatient, I let her go.  The next day, the points status confirmed my suspicion.  I called the VIP line again and got Michelle again, she said she checked and everything was ok, and would not look back into it.  So, I started cancelling a bunch of my reservations, and rebooking them in the hopes that some of my point from one quarter would move forward to the next quarter.  That seemed to work as I was able to make the PR reservations I wanted.  The next day - WHOA, my account showed 12 million more points than it should have, all PR points.  I called the VIP line again, and left my concerns with the rep (don't remember his name).  He said he would have Michelle run a full audit of my account.  The next day Michelle called me, and was very annoyed I had complained about her.  She said the full audit was done and my account was exactly correct.  I said, "how can that be, as I have over 12 million points more than I should?"  She stated flatly that I had the correct amount.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be blunt, harsh,and direct in order to make some points. I will probably make many angry. But I already don't think many of you care for me anyway. So here it goes.
It doesn't matter what you are told or what is written anywhere. It doesn't matter how any of us interpret the rules.
What does matter is how the website was programmed to work. It does matter how Wyndham interprets the rules and inforces those rules.
A classic example. It's in black and white in the directory that resale points do NOT receive VIP benefits but the website system says yes they do.
Sales will tell you resale points don't get VIP benefits. It doesn't matter because they do and it's been that way for years.

CYRUS24OO you have proof of how the website is treating deposited points today. It doesn't need to be in writing.Yes it could change
Nomad34 it doesn't matter what you were told. That's not how the system works. Yes it could change

Cayman01 no post about system generating extra points. I understand why some secrets aren't posted.
But this issue should've been posted about. This should be a wake up call to all of us. We all need to post the good and the bad.
This whole website fiasco might not of happened or atleast would not of blown up this bad and dragging so many into being suspended that didn't even realize they had extra points in their account.
The system might of been generating extra points for years. Who knew what or when? I don't know
YES WYNDHAMS SOFTWARE WAS THE PROBLEM. But why was it kept secret ? Think about it

When big bad Wyndham is
Is not giving the proper VIP discount. What do we do ? Look at all the post
Isn't giving us a proper search feature. What do we do ? Look at all the post
Is not showing availability. What do we do ? Look at all the post
Took points away. What do we do ? Look at all the post
Suspending and locking our accounts. What do we do ? Look at all the post
The list could go on

When big bad Wyndhams software is crediting back extra points. What do we do? NOTHING . I don't believe for a second that wjappraise was the first one who noticed the extra points. Actually wjappraise might not of ever been suspended if the extra point issue would of been brought out in the open sooner. You might of had hundreds or thousands informing Wyndham of the problem if it was posted here and on Wyndhams Facebook page. Getting Wyndhams attention and a lot of this chaos might of been avoided.
I remember a post. Loose lips sink ships. This ship might of sailed a hell of a lot smoother with some loose lips sooner!

Wjappraise I can understand why you are in the rears with Wyndham. For a couple of reasons. Your suspension has gone on way to long.
I applaud you for your honesty!! Hindsight is always 20/20. But here it goes.
Points are currency here. You made a huge mistake when you transferred the extra points to RCI. You took currency that you knew wasn't yours from the bank of Wyndham and deposited it the bank of RCI. If you would of posted and asked for advice. I would've said. Do not touch those points. If a bank screws up and put extra money in your account. Then you knowingly withdraw that extra money and deposit it in a different bank. It doesn't look good for you.
It doesn't matter how you interpreted the 10 unit limit rule. Wyndham clearly told you no. You can't have that reservation. What was your response? I don't care I'm going to do it again and by the way you did it again numerous times. Defying Wyndham ruling on the situation.

Yes Wyndhams software was the culprit. But it could of been brought to Wyndhams attention a whole lot quicker and by a lot of owners .
NOT ONE


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## Nomad34 (Jul 5, 2017)

Thank you.


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## wjappraise (Jul 5, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I'm going to be blunt, harsh,and direct in order to make some points. I will probably make many angry. But I already don't think many of you care for me anyway. So here it goes.
> It doesn't matter what you are told or what is written anywhere. It doesn't matter how any of us interpret the rules.
> What does matter is how the website was programmed to work. It does matter how Wyndham interprets the rules and inforces those rules.
> A classic example. It's in black and white in the directory that resale points do NOT receive VIP benefits but the website system says yes they do.
> ...



I think we agree on more than we disagree.   I believe the points bloating was HUGE.  I would guess a billion points or more.  Seemed to hit VIPs more. And PR points in particular.  But it makes sense that it was across the board.  And probably a 100,000 point bloating never got noticed.

But my 20 million sure would. And that's why I put it in RCI account, which the attorney that spoke with me three weeks ago seemed fine to hear. He knows I haven't spent it and it's there for Wyndham to take.  In hindsight I wish I would have just let them expire (keeping screen shots).  But I'm comfortable with my approach and my reporting the matter. And, Wyndham agrees. 

I also believe many others found similar bonus points and turned them into reservations which they sold for ridiculously low prices.  If you watched the prices on TUG, or on Redweek, or others - the prices were RIDICULOUSLY low, and lots of them.  I was tempted.  And if any of the big points managers figured out how to recreate the glitch they could have done it over the dozens or hundreds of accounts under their control.  And they paid the owners of the accounts based on points used, which would be net.  Basically free reservations with limited liability. The points manager wouldn't get suspended, the account owner would.

Likely hundreds of millions points went undetected.  But the lack of accountability rests with Wyndham not the owners, even if they went rogue. Wyndham has been the keeper of the books, and you have at least my sample size for a test of how they responded when made aware of the HUGE PROBLEM - Wyndham IGNORED it, or did not believe me, as they were too focused on their small portion of the overall picture.  They had no problem busting my chops for a mid-year change in ten-unit per night policy, but missed the huge amount of points gushing out the back door.  

And in August they finally figured out they had a problem, but STILL DID NOT FIX IT.  Reports were going out as late as March 2017 of bogus points showing up when users cancelled certain reservations.  To make matters worse, they likely leaned on the same people who designed the flawed system that led to the points bloating to program the new website and software. . . STUPID!!!  And as for the suspensions - I mean almost a year has passed and very few accounts are cleared.  And Wyndham's ability to program obviously led to the points inflation now has led to insanely inaccurate accounts across the board with the new software.  Have you ever seen such a poorly designed program and rollout?  Almost two months in and it still won't work with Chrome?  And doesn't provide consistent application of auto upgrade on any platform?  And doesn't email many users when they make a reservation?  I could go on and on but you get the drift.

Bottom line.  This is Wyndham's poop fest.  Not mine. Or yours.  Or Ron's.  They are the keeper of the accounts.  Not us.  We can't even accurately access our points balances.  And we keep getting reservations that mysteriously disappear or are cancelled with no explanations nor compensation.  

Ladies and gentlemen - I present "Your Wyndham Brain Trust."  



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> Where is all of this written?  Who tested?  I'm not taking chances with something that is not spelled out or for which there is not adequate experience/consensus.  I give Wyndham NO credit (or pat on the back) for creating this restrictive deposit feature when the credit pool worked just fine for us low point owners.





Nomad34 said:


> One of the last sales pitches was "you have 192k 105k and 105k so you will be limited in making reservations as you have been able to use the total before but now that will no longer work as each contract will be treated individually"  Again trying to sell me CWA which I continually refuse.


You two want something in writing. I quote from the new directory supplement.
As a CLUB WYNDHAM Plus member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they come from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different points types and their eligibility.

That's exactly how the system is currently working. Your account is loaded with your ARP and point deposit ALLOCATIONS. NOT INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS. IT DOES NOT TRAC CONTRACTS


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## Zeke_62 (Jul 6, 2017)

I did report the extra points to Wyndham, along with points being returned to the way wrong bucket.  I called and requested a points audit which was in work when the suspensions hit.  The suspension cancelled the original points audit.  I was fortunate to be one of the earlier "thawed" accounts, but have heard nothing since the thaw.   I'm just not as vocal on TUG as some of you.


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## cayman01 (Jul 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I'm going to be blunt, harsh,and direct in order to make some points. I will probably make many angry. But I already don't think many of you care for me anyway. So here it goes.
> It doesn't matter what you are told or what is written anywhere. It doesn't matter how any of us interpret the rules.
> What does matter is how the website was programmed to work. It does matter how Wyndham interprets the rules and inforces those rules.
> A classic example. It's in black and white in the directory that resale points do NOT receive VIP benefits but the website system says yes they do.
> ...



 I am not so sure that Wyndham wasn't told about it before. I am sure there were many people who called in and told them they had extra points  in their account. Wyndham corrected them with an audit but never realized the problem was systemic. They IGNORED it as Wyndham likes to do. Then came wjappraise, this is why I call him Patient Zero, and he tells Wyndham in no uncertain terms there is a problem with extra points being generated. They ignore him. Then he bangs away at that reservation every day and racks up 20,000,000 extra points in his account. THIS got their attention and led us down the road to where we are today.

 As for owners not saying anything I agree with you. It should have been brought up. But I can think of three reasons why it wasn't. First, you have a majority of owners who do not keep track of their points down to the last one, and they probably never noticed. Second, you have a bunch who knew they had extra but were happy to see Wyndham getting screwed for a change instead of them. Third, you have the people who figured out how to manipulate the system and they weren't going to tell anybody. Still, you would have thought SOMEBODY would have written something here on TUG. There was a reference after the fact that I recall, but none before that I can remember .

 As for wjappraise I feel for the guy. Wyndham has chosen him to be the whipping boy. By hammering that reservation and getting all  those extra points he is feeling the wrath Of Wyndham. And it is totally uncalled for. He tried to tell them about extra points. He only wanted a reservation he felt entitled to . He was courteous and polite. Yet Wyndham never took the time to sit with him and discuss his problems. They STILL haven't . The irony being, if they had they would have been much closer to a resolution than we are today. Wyndham management did this to themselves by not recognizing the problems sooner and by not listening to owners who told them there was a problem. They just assumed Everybody was guilty of cheating when that is far far from the truth.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 6, 2017)

Thank you for helping me to try to understand more of some options on my deeds. As I see it now, anyone who purchased my deeds would be Silver_ Gold or platinum depending on their package if deeds or points held with Wyndham. At vacation village in Kissimmee in February they offered a % of Wyndham points to convert but I still value my Wyndham too much (maybe it is an idol) to trade or sell for anything less. I am heading to Headland tomorrow to offer my deeds to help  build the college for training mental health counselors and doctors in Christian work. She has been doing this for 15 years and she has helped me to better understand the illnesses that I have experienced. The Wiregrass Foundation in Dothan has matched funds with her for years and united way has been helping for 5 years. I just pray they will be able to get more than I could as I don't want to give them to Wyndham for nothing.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> Thank you for helping me to try to understand more of some options on my deeds. As I see it now, anyone who purchased my deeds would be Silver_ Gold or platinum depending on their package if deeds or points held with Wyndham. At vacation village in Kissimmee in February they offered a % of Wyndham points to convert but I still value my Wyndham too much (maybe it is an idol) to trade or sell for anything less. I am heading to Headland tomorrow to offer my deeds to help  build the college for training mental health counselors and doctors in Christian work. She has been doing this for 15 years and she has helped me to better understand the illnesses that I have experienced. The Wiregrass Foundation in Dothan has matched funds with her for years and united way has been helping for 5 years. I just pray they will be able to get more than I could as I don't want to give them to Wyndham for nothing.



VIP benefits DO NOT transfer to a new owner unless they are your immediate family! You have been lied to and misled at every turn. If you keep going to those sales presentations do yourself a favor and don't listen to anything they tell you just nod your head and smile, don't sign or buy anything, and collect your gifts on the way out.

Do your grandchildren understand what they are giving up; have they vacationed at the Wyndham resorts? Maybe they are just too financially strapped to be able to afford the maintenance fees on any of the deeds.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> You two want something in writing. I quote from the new directory supplement.
> As a CLUB WYNDHAM Plus member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they come from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different points types and their eligibility.
> 
> That's exactly how the system is currently working. Your account is loaded with your ARP and point deposit ALLOCATIONS. NOT INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS. IT DOES NOT TRAC CONTRACTS


I believe there is a hangup on the term 'contracts'.  Point types are related to where I own.  I have ARP at Grand Desert and I have ARP at CWA.  These are the only 2 things I own.  Call them point types or call them contracts or call them 'bullcrap buckets', they show individually in the Points Calculator in the 10-13 window.  At the less than 10 month window, I have a CWP balance.  And the CWP balance does not equal available points and this is keeping me from making a reservation.  I just got off the phone with a VC because I can't make a reservation even though the calculator says I have enough points.  CWP shows 140K fewer points.  Interesting to note that the 140K points is what I deposited into 2018 on 6/30/17.  It seems the system is not always 'worrying about different point types and their eligibility'.  For whatever reason, it appears that it's not worrying about the deposited points.  Well, I'm worrying as I want to make a reservation at a popular resort.  This system is failing in this regard, 'you will no longer have to worry about different points types and their eligibility.'  I'll keep my spreadsheet, thank you very much, until I see that the system is truly worrying about different point types and their eligibility.


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## wjappraise (Jul 6, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I am not so sure that Wyndham wasn't told about it before. I am sure there were many people who called in and told them they had extra points  in their account.
> As for wjappraise I feel for the guy. Wyndham has chosen him to be the whipping boy. By hammering that reservation and getting all  those extra points he is feeling the wrath Of Wyndham. And it is totally uncalled for. He tried to tell them about extra points. He only wanted a reservation he felt entitled to . He was courteous and polite. Yet Wyndham never took the time to sit with him and discuss his problems. They STILL haven't . The irony being, if they had they would have been much closer to a resolution than we are today. Wyndham management did this to themselves by not recognizing the problems sooner and by not listening to owners who told them there was a problem. They just assumed Everybody was guilty of cheating when that is far far from the truth.



Thank you so much for the support.  I certainly have tried to be respectful and courteous in my minimal communications with Wyndham.  I have reserved my "venting" and irritation for this forum.  I have also expressed my willingness to allow this to be worked out amicably.  It is quite frustrating to see some who have taken a far more combative stance with Wyndham now being settled, while I am twisting in the wind.  I am glad that others have been resolved, and felt I was well on the way to such, but the lack of response since the reach out from the OC and attorney a month ago gives me frustration.  Hopefully, I will hear something soon and get a chance to clear the situation.  The stress has been inescapable.  I still cannot believe that something the initial rep I spoke with said should be handled in "less than two weeks," is now almost a year in duration.  With no explanations as to why, and minimal updates (three live phone calls in 11 months).  Is that how a Fortune 500 company should operate?


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## wjappraise (Jul 6, 2017)

Zeke_62 said:


> I did report the extra points to Wyndham, along with points being returned to the way wrong bucket.  I called and requested a points audit which was in work when the suspensions hit.  The suspension cancelled the original points audit.  I was fortunate to be one of the earlier "thawed" accounts, but have heard nothing since the thaw.   I'm just not as vocal on TUG as some of you.



Thanks for sharing.  It is good to know others have been in the same boat.  Were you fully suspended in August 2016 like many of us?  Are you fully restored now?  Or only partially "thawed" like I am?  Thanks again.


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> I believe there is a hangup on the term 'contracts'.  Point types are related to where I own.  I have ARP at Grand Desert and I have ARP at CWA.  These are the only 2 things I own.  Call them point types or call them contracts or call them 'bullcrap buckets', they show individually in the Points Calculator in the 10-13 window.  At the less than 10 month window, I have a CWP balance.  And the CWP balance does not equal available points and this is keeping me from making a reservation.  I just got off the phone with a VC because I can't make a reservation even though the calculator says I have enough points.  CWP shows 140K fewer points.  Interesting to note that the 140K points is what I deposited into 2018 on 6/30/17.  It seems the system is not always 'worrying about different point types and their eligibility'.  For whatever reason, it appears that it's not worrying about the deposited points.  Well, I'm worrying as I want to make a reservation at a popular resort.  This system is failing in this regard, 'you will no longer have to worry about different points types and their eligibility.'  I'll keep my spreadsheet, thank you very much, until I see that the system is truly worrying about different point types and their eligibility.


It sounds more like another bug with the programming.
Yes the points calculator shows what ARP allocation you have left at 10-13 months
Yes the points calculator shows all points available at 10 months or less in 2018. This is your CWP balance as you call it. Includes points deposited. Are you trying to make a reservation for 2017 ? If you deposited all your 2017 points left to 2018. You have 0 points available for reservations in 2017.
Your problem seems to be a glitch that your deposited points aren't available when you try to make a reservation.
From the new supplement
Deposited points will expire at the end of the Use Year selected and may not be moved again.
This is considered a final transaction and the fee is non refundable.
In your case when you saw the points available for deposit in RCI helps you to understand how the system is working.
Deposited points are not eligible for RCI
An example.
You have 500,000 2018 use year points available and deposit 250,000 2017 points.
The points calculator should show 750,000 available points for January 2018.
Points available for deposit in RCI should be the 500,000. 
When you pick a date the points calculator and points available when making a reservation should be the same. Sounds like another issue for IT triage.
Hope that helps.


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I am not so sure that Wyndham wasn't told about it before. I am sure there were many people who called in and told them they had extra points  in their account. Wyndham corrected them with an audit but never realized the problem was systemic. They IGNORED it as Wyndham likes to do. Then came wjappraise, this is why I call him Patient Zero, and he tells Wyndham in no uncertain terms there is a problem with extra points being generated. They ignore him. Then he bangs away at that reservation every day and racks up 20,000,000 extra points in his account. THIS got their attention and led us down the road to where we are today.
> 
> As for owners not saying anything I agree with you. It should have been brought up. But I can think of three reasons why it wasn't. First, you have a majority of owners who do not keep track of their points down to the last one, and they probably never noticed. Second, you have a bunch who knew they had extra but were happy to see Wyndham getting screwed for a change instead of them. Third, you have the people who figured out how to manipulate the system and they weren't going to tell anybody. Still, you would have thought SOMEBODY would have written something here on TUG. There was a reference after the fact that I recall, but none before that I can remember .
> 
> As for wjappraise I feel for the guy. Wyndham has chosen him to be the whipping boy. By hammering that reservation and getting all  those extra points he is feeling the wrath Of Wyndham. And it is totally uncalled for. He tried to tell them about extra points. He only wanted a reservation he felt entitled to . He was courteous and polite. Yet Wyndham never took the time to sit with him and discuss his problems. They STILL haven't . The irony being, if they had they would have been much closer to a resolution than we are today. Wyndham management did this to themselves by not recognizing the problems sooner and by not listening to owners who told them there was a problem. They just assumed Everybody was guilty of cheating when that is far far from the truth.





wjappraise said:


> Thank you so much for the support.  I certainly have tried to be respectful and courteous in my minimal communications with Wyndham.  I have reserved my "venting" and irritation for this forum.  I have also expressed my willingness to allow this to be worked out amicably.  It is quite frustrating to see some who have taken a far more combative stance with Wyndham now being settled, while I am twisting in the wind.  I am glad that others have been resolved, and felt I was well on the way to such, but the lack of response since the reach out from the OC and attorney a month ago gives me frustration.  Hopefully, I will hear something soon and get a chance to clear the situation.  The stress has been inescapable.  I still cannot believe that something the initial rep I spoke with said should be handled in "less than two weeks," is now almost a year in duration.  With no explanations as to why, and minimal updates (three live phone calls in 11 months).  Is that how a Fortune 500 company should operate?


Cayman01 I totally agree. Just thought my post was long enough.
Wjappraise. Total respect for you. Quite the irony. The one who finally shows them a point total they can't ignore. Gets treated the way you have.
Another case of whistleblower receiving unjust treatment. Hope everything works out ok for you ASAP


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2017)

I will have to say that 1 or 2 owners now and then calling in to report they received an extra 10,000 to 40,000 wouldn't set of alarm bells. Or even double points back ounce and a while wouldn't be alarming
They received just as many if not more phone calls from owners that thought the opposite and were short points.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Thank you so much for the support.  I certainly have tried to be respectful and courteous in my minimal communications with Wyndham.  I have reserved my "venting" and irritation for this forum.  I have also expressed my willingness to allow this to be worked out amicably.  It is quite frustrating to see some who have taken a far more combative stance with Wyndham now being settled, while I am twisting in the wind.  I am glad that others have been resolved, and felt I was well on the way to such, but the lack of response since the reach out from the OC and attorney a month ago gives me frustration.  Hopefully, I will hear something soon and get a chance to clear the situation.  The stress has been inescapable.  I still cannot believe that something the initial rep I spoke with said should be handled in "less than two weeks," is now almost a year in duration.  With no explanations as to why, and minimal updates (three live phone calls in 11 months).  Is that how a Fortune 500 company should operate?



I hope you receive a fair resolution soon.

The stress of this crappy website and not being able to do anything but rent points for just a few days short of a month now is starting to get to me and that is nothing compared to your situation. My husband will be retiring in a few months and we were planning on taking a long trip. I would be willing to rent the points to make sure I get the stays we want if I could be sure that owner care would take my points for those reservations and refund the money I paid to rent the points when they finally get my account straightened out. They realigned my use year about a week before the new system came online and when I cancelled an old reservation that recreated my old use year. IT has to make it go away. That doesn't seem like it should be a big deal to do but the ticket to get my account fixed is just one of God only knows how many so I'm stuck waiting my turn. I'm starting to feel like the dreams we've had for so many years of using our Wyndham timeshare to travel are slipping away.

I was thinking about what you said about other people and their dealings with Wyndham. I've wondered if the difference is that with someone like you it would be a resolution/getting the issues with your account rectified and with others it was a settlement resulting in deeds being taken back among other things. Maybe Wyndham had a priority list. Or perhaps they have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of cases? Could it be that there are more owners than any of us realize awaiting or in various stages of resolutions or settlements? I can't think of any other reasons why it is taking so long for them to get around to you.

I give you a lot of credit for how well you've dealt with your situation. All of us are dealing with the frustrations of the new website and for the many of us the loss of benefits too. Unfortunately you got lumped with others who as it turns out were apparently not nearly as deserving of our sympathies. I think you do understand why some people have gotten skeptical and the details you've given in your responses were very helpful in dispelling that skepticism. Thank you on behalf of all of us for that. Continue to vent and we are rooting for you!


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> When you pick a date the points calculator and points available when making a reservation should be the same. Sounds like another issue for IT triage.
> Hope that helps.


Calculator and Points available do not match for 1/1/18-12/31/18.  The difference, a coincidence maybe, happens to be exactly equal to the points I deposited via the new Deposit 'Feature' into 2018.  It's a system issue is what I was told.  A ticket was created this morning.  I created a reservation a couple days ago that flew right through, but, there was no need at that time for the system to need those deposited points.  Making be 'think' that deposited points, are in fact, used after regular use year points.  Not asking for ideas, it is what it is.


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 7, 2017)

I’ve complained at great length about the loss of the Credit Pool and the lack of clear and specific information on how the Deposit Feature works In regard to which points are used first, Use Year or Deposited points, but, I must say something nice about Wyndham when they do something right.  My Available points did not match the CWP points in the Points Calculator when inside the standard reservation period (previous post).  I called yesterday morning at exactly 8am (no hold time) and spoke with a very nice VC.  She saw the problem as I saw it, on the surface it appeared that 2017 points deposited into 2018 were not included in the CWP number.  She created a ticket.  This morning, everything matches.  There are definitely programming problems with regard to points, but, they will fix them.  And, in my case, they fixed them promptly.  Still hate the restrictive Deposit Feature, but, I have to be happy about a points problem resolution.


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## wjappraise (Jul 7, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> There are definitely programming problems with regard to points, but, they will fix them.  And, in my case, they fixed them promptly.  Still hate the restrictive Deposit Feature, but, I have to be happy about a points problem resolution.



Kind of sad when the best compliment given the new website, is that when it is screwed up, you can call in, speak to someone that may or may not see it correctly, get a ticket case filed, and have the correction made with 24 hours.  

It would be like if you have $5,000 showing in your checking account, and one day it shows you have $5.00 only.  And when you talk to the bank, they see there is a problem and 24 hours later, it is corrected showing $5,000 in your account.  Not sure ANYONE would take to social media to brag about that bank.  Certain things just MUST be correct, but we have grown so accustomed to Wyndham's ineptitude, that fixing a problem is now reason to celebrate.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present, "Your Wyndham Brain Trust."


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## CYRUS2400 (Jul 7, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Kind of sad when the best compliment given the new website, is that when it is screwed up, you can call in, speak to someone that may or may not see it correctly, get a ticket case filed, and have the correction made with 24 hours.


Agree, 100%, very sad.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 7, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> VIP benefits DO NOT transfer to a new owner unless they are your immediate family! You have been lied to and misled at every turn. If you keep going to those sales presentations do yourself a favor and don't listen to anything they tell you just nod your head and smile, don't sign or buy anything, and collect your gifts on the way out.
> 
> Do your grandchildren understand what they are giving up; have they vacationed at the Wyndham resorts? Maybe they are just too financially strapped to be able to afford the maintenance fees on any of the deeds.


The grandchildren only understand they don't want the vultures circling around when I die. The only one who really liked, owned and wanted more is eager to give them away because they can't get what they want when they want it and fees are too high at Sapphire. All have jobs making twice to 5 times what I make but don't want condo's with MF or even neighborhoods with HOA. They are smarter than I was.


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## Zeke_62 (Jul 8, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Thanks for sharing.  It is good to know others have been in the same boat.  Were you fully suspended in August 2016 like many of us?  Are you fully restored now?  Or only partially "thawed" like I am?  Thanks again.


I was fully frozen.  I had multi use years, I rolled points forward, I rented points from Wyndham, I credit pooled.  I was suspended as I had too many points.  It sounds like you are one phone call ahead of me.  I have talked to the Wyndham lawyers twice.  The initial call, and the second to advise the "thaw".  I'm guessing that I lost 1.5M points that expired prior to the thaw - but as 11 months later the points audit has not been completed, I can not be sure.  Wyndham did align my use years to all be Dec 31.  I did have an inbound resale contract in the works right at freeze time.  The timeshare closing company ended up being extremely inept and took months to get correct docs to Wyndham, then it was in "management review" for months.    "Management" did release that contract and it is now in my account.  Am I still under "thaw" status?  Am I fully restored?  Who knows.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 8, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Funny as this might sounds, my feelings today, are that I can use our VIP to book some instantly upgraded rooms and still rent them for a decent profit.  Gone, perhaps, are the days of customizing dates, trimming a day here and there, checking in any day of the week, or 4 BR Pres dirt cheap.
> 
> Likely gone are the days of family reunions at Wyndham resorts (my father's intent when he purchased VIP).
> 
> I don't think Dad would be too disappointed if we take the profits from the rentals and apply them to a reasonably priced, non-Wyndham, vacation package of sorts so that we can continue to enjoy family times together.  THAT was his intent.


That was my intent as Fairfield convinced me of "family vacations" but now this has been removed in my thinking by Wyndham. In fact Wyndham has been the reason my grandchildren refuse to ever have that subject mentioned in their presence. When my youngest attended a sales meeting after his graduation from USF as an industrial engineer, he looked me in the eye and said " they do not respect you or your ownership so please sell out.". This was the last of my four who had been on many vacations with me and his mother and was so happy to inherit them and enjoy "family vacations" but seeing that all had expressed discuss with what sales had done to ruin these fond memories decided he had to agree.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 8, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Not hard at all.. Your 400000 points are worth between $1500 and $3000


The Wyndham connectors to sell deeds legally told me the cost for their service was $500 to $1000 per deed and I have not been overcharged but charged for something in advance so I would not pay anymore fees upon sale. Their problem has been a gut of resales by non reputable sales companies and individuals. This is reminesent of Florida sales during the "boom" that lined the pockets of greedy people and when title insurance started clearance these fake deeds appeareared.


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## cayman01 (Jul 8, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> The Wyndham connectors to sell deeds legally told me the cost for their service was $500 to $1000 per deed and I have not been overcharged but charged for something in advance so I would not pay anymore fees upon sale. Their problem has been a gut of resales by non reputable sales companies and individuals. This is reminesent of Florida sales during the "boom" that lined the pockets of greedy people and when title insurance started clearance these fake deeds appeareared.



You can advertise and sell your deeds right here on TUG. The Ocean Walk and Smokies have some value. You can use LT Transfers for the closing. They will charge you around $200 for each transaction. The Branson contract probably has little to no resale value and can be given back to Wyndham thru Ovation at ZERO cost to you.


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## gottashiner (Jul 8, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Nobody has said anything about the owners being at fault for this fiasco except maybe for Wyndham, and they know now it wasn't the owners that caused the problems. It was the software. Now, let's call a spade a spade. With all the owners of Wyndham don't you think some of them figured out how to get extra points  in their account? And then abused the crap out of that software error if they were a big renter? And then told a few of their friends? Of course they did. That led to Wyndham suspending everybody last summer because there was way too many available points vs available inventory. To Wyndham, anybody who got extra cancellation points was guilty which was wrong but they suspended them anyway. Ill bet dollars to donuts the trust was BILLIONS of points out of whack.
> 
> Now you have to remember that the extra cancellation points error didn't distinguish accounts. Some people exploited it. Thousands of other accounts just had them appear due to the software. Wyndham cannot point to one or the other and KNOW it was done on purpose. They can't figure out how it is happening . The trust is going to go belly up. They HAVE to do something. Her comes Voyager ready or not and a whole new fiasco. But Wyndham can live with this one. Maybe. If they get the damn thing fixed.
> 
> ...




My account was suspended because (I was told) when _I cancelled a reservation, the points came back with no contract number assigned so when I called to credit pool my points, it raised some flag.  I monitor my points ( have an excel spreadsheet) & at times there were differences, but they were minor compared to my member point balance.  I did not have extra points come back to my account from cancelled points.  My account was audited and the number of points was not found in error.  It took Wyndham months and of course no communication.  I could have saved them effort if I could have just sent them my spreadsheet.    
_


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## Nomad34 (Jul 8, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> You can advertise and sell your deeds right here on TUG. The Ocean Walk and Smokies have some value. You can use LT Transfers for the closing. They will charge you around $200 for each transaction. The Branson contract probably has little to no resale value and can be given back to Wyndham thru Ovation at ZERO cost to you.


Thank you for the input. I can get the $3000 from timeshare brokers because they work with buy a timeshare and I wouldn't owe anymore as other fees are paid by buyers so I will continue to enjoy the rest of this year's vacations happily having been able to upgrade for so many years and discounted too as Gold for most of them and thoroughly enjoyed two presidential units. I will hold onto my deeds until I get a fair price from XYZ vacation resorts as dreamer mentiond. What is ROAF?


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## wjappraise (Jul 8, 2017)

gottashiner said:


> My account was suspended because (I was told) when _I cancelled a reservation, the points came back with no contract number assigned so when I called to credit pool my points, it raised some flag.  I monitor my points ( have an excel spreadsheet) & at times there were differences, but they were minor compared to my member point balance.  I did not have extra points come back to my account from cancelled points.  My account was audited and the number of points was not found in error.  It took Wyndham months and of course no communication.  I could have saved them effort if I could have just sent them my spreadsheet.
> _



Wow.  It's the "shoot first" mentality that is so inexcusable. 



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## wjappraise (Jul 8, 2017)

Zeke_62 said:


> I was fully frozen.  I had multi use years, I rolled points forward, I rented points from Wyndham, I credit pooled.  I was suspended as I had too many points.  It sounds like you are one phone call ahead of me.  I have talked to the Wyndham lawyers twice.  The initial call, and the second to advise the "thaw".  I'm guessing that I lost 1.5M points that expired prior to the thaw - but as 11 months later the points audit has not been completed, I can not be sure.  Wyndham did align my use years to all be Dec 31.  I did have an inbound resale contract in the works right at freeze time.  The timeshare closing company ended up being extremely inept and took months to get correct docs to Wyndham, then it was in "management review" for months.    "Management" did release that contract and it is now in my account.  Am I still under "thaw" status?  Am I fully restored?  Who knows.



Your case mirrors mine in so many ways.  I am one phone call ahead of you.  And you are one recorded deed in your account ahead of me.  Maybe the biggest difference is that I know how many points extra my account had/has.  Of course that doesn't sync entirely with Wyndham numbers.  All they have the capability to track is how many points I used each year. Not how many I rolled forward and accumulated.  And that will be interesting to see how it's resolved.  I went into this thing assuming that any numbers given me by Wyndham were solid.  I now know differently.  How can I have any belief in the numbers they present?  They still have no idea how many points I should have for the current year, yet alone 2016 or 2015.  I trust my numbers much more.  But it's their playground.   


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## dghenri (Jul 8, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I think you pretty much nailed it.  As for the last question, you're probably correct but until the website stabilizes, I don't think we can say for sure.  At the very least, a rental business will take a lot more time than it used to because of the clunkiness in making reservations.



I never used cancel and rebook for business only for myself, extending the value of my points as I was told I should do at many an owners meeting. For me it is absolutely unfair as it was used as a sells pitch, a reason to upgrade and now for them to just take it away after getting my money. I plan to fight this as for me there is something called a "verbal contract" and that was violated. I believe sales reps were encouraged by company managers to push the C/R, it wasn't put out there on a whim, it was to pervasive to have been pushed by some random reps acting on their own independent of corporate knowledge.


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## chapjim (Jul 8, 2017)

dghenri said:


> <snip>For me it is absolutely unfair as it was used as a sells pitch, a reason to upgrade and now for them to just take it away after getting my money. I plan to fight this as for me there is something called a "verbal contract" and that was violated.  <snip>



I don't like for a minute that cancel/rebook/upgrade has been all but taken away.  However, I learned in law school a while back that verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

What Wyndham told buyers counts for nothing because here's what buyers agreed to in writing:

"BUYER does further acknowledge, agree, and warrant that the purchase of this Ownership Interest is made for BUYER'S personal use and that there have been no representations concerning rentals, rent potential or profit, tax advantages, depreciation or investment potential or other monetary or financial advantages and that none of such things have been represented to BUYER by SELLER, its agents, employee or associates."

Saying you were told something when you signed a document saying you were not told that thing is a losing strategy in court.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.


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## dghenri (Jul 8, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I don't like for a minute that cancel/rebook/upgrade has been all but taken away.  However, I learned in law school a while back that verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.
> 
> What Wyndham told buyers counts for nothing because here's what buyers agreed to in writing:
> 
> ...


Honestly never once did I use it for business or to make a dime, only for my personal use. It was suggested savy owners should do this to expand the power or control of their points. Had I been using it for profit I get it I engaged in fraudulent behavior when I signed on the dotted line that I wouldn't but that was not the case. Additional could you characterize the benefit of C/R as advertising. And isn't changing that benefit now false advertising or only if they make such statements now?


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## Braindead (Jul 8, 2017)

dghenri said:


> Honestly never once did I use it for business or to make a dime, only for my personal use. It was suggested savy owners should do this to expand the power or control of their points. Had I been using it for profit I get it I engaged in fraudulent behavior when I signed on the dotted line that I wouldn't but that was not the case. Additional could you characterize the benefit of C/R as advertising. And isn't changing that benefit now false advertising or only if they make such statements now?


You can still try to cancel/rebook. Some have tried and been successful.
The auto upgrade doesn't seem to be taking the reservations available. In fact auto upgrade doesn't seem to be working at all


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## chapjim (Jul 8, 2017)

dghenri said:


> Honestly never once did I use it for business or to make a dime, only for my personal use. It was suggested savy owners should do this to expand the power or control of their points. Had I been using it for profit I get it I engaged in fraudulent behavior when I signed on the dotted line that I wouldn't but that was not the case. Additional could you characterize the benefit of C/R as advertising. And isn't changing that benefit now false advertising or only if they make such statements now?



You said you want to fight.  All I'm trying to point out is that it would be dumb to take Wyndham to court because you were told something during a sales presentation.  Forget fraudulent behavior on your part.  No one, including Wyndham, cares that you might rent units when you agreed you wouldn't -- UNLESS you try to claim that you were told by sales that you could offset maintenance by doing rentals and it didn't work.

If you sign Wyndham's standard form contract, you agree that nothing shady, unscrupulous, nasty happened.  If you try to negotiate the terms of Wyndham's standard form contract, there will be no sale.


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## Jan M. (Jul 8, 2017)

chapjim said:


> You said you want to fight.  All I'm trying to point out is that it would be dumb to take Wyndham to court because you were told something during a sales presentation.  Forget fraudulent behavior on your part.  No one, including Wyndham, cares that you might rent units when you agreed you wouldn't -- UNLESS you try to claim that you were told by sales that you could offset maintenance by doing rentals and it didn't work.
> 
> If you sign Wyndham's standard form contract, you agree that nothing shady, unscrupulous, nasty things happened.  If you try to negotiate the terms of Wyndham's standard form contract, there will be no sale.



In the thread about the accounts being suspended somewhere in the numerous posts there was a link to an article about the huge number of lawsuits currently against Wyndham compared to other timeshare companies. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was over 400 for Wyndham and I can't remember which but it was either less than half of that for all the other timeshare companies put together or under 200 for the next closest company. Wyndham prefers to settle out of court and get non disclosure agreements signed to keep the rest of the owners in the dark or there would be even more lawsuits. This isn't a strategy unique to them just one they have very successfully employed to their benefit.

Can anyone find that link and post it for dghenri?

BTW we were ALL coached by the sales reps on book, cancel and rebook, and upgrade in the process too. It was how they convinced us to spend the money to reach the various VIP levels. Then they used bonus points to help us reach those levels to get us to experience being a VIP or the next level of VIP so we would hopefully like it enough to purchase more points.

So far Wyndham has been very successful in not being held accountable for anything not in writing no matter that it is standard practice for sales to tell us the things they do and they are even coached/trained in what they say. Their latest approach is telling people their points are no good or they won't be able to use them. It is time for laws to prohibit all timeshare company salespeople from making any claims/statements that they cannot or do not put in writing.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> In the thread about the accounts being suspended somewhere in the numerous posts there was a link to an article about the huge number of lawsuits currently against Wyndham compared to other timeshare companies. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was over 400 for Wyndham and I can't remember which but it was either less than half of that for all the other timeshare companies put together or under 200 for the next closest company. Wyndham prefers to settle out of court and get non disclosure agreements signed to keep the rest of the owners in the dark or there would be even more lawsuits. This isn't a strategy unique to them just one they have very successfully employed to their benefit.
> 
> Can anyone find that link and post it for dghenri?
> 
> ...


Very well said. A few years back we had a former Fairfield employee to speak about how things changed after Cendant and Wyndham bought them out. He told of the many strong lawyers behind them and the power being shown. He had charts showing the changes being made to give more pressure to sales by having a person see more and more levels of salesmen before gifting. Owners were offered a new plan similar to Voyager and also to involve a lawyer to exit Wyndham. I already had a trust lawyer. So I didn't need one and I wasn't impressed with the program any more than I am with this new website.it is interesting to see how the trust was able to break free to some measure after this.  
 At the Smokies a few years before a salesman cane to bring a gift and my daughter told him we were talking to a lawyer about Wyndham and he left immediately.  I would really like to see a TS be more honest in their dealings with owners. Even Dave Ramsey isn't against TS's just that it isn't an investment. He says buy resale and enjoy.  Until I was burned by referrals I was always ready to promote Wyndham but now I even tell my renter's to not attend sales meeting.


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## kbosch74 (Jul 9, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> I think we agree on more than we disagree.   I believe the points bloating was HUGE.  I would guess a billion points or more.  Seemed to hit VIPs more. And PR points in particular.  But it makes sense that it was across the board.  And probably a 100,000 point bloating never got noticed.
> 
> But my 20 million sure would. And that's why I put it in RCI account, which the attorney that spoke with me three weeks ago seemed fine to hear. He knows I haven't spent it and it's there for Wyndham to take.  In hindsight I wish I would have just let them expire (keeping screen shots).  But I'm comfortable with my approach and my reporting the matter. And, Wyndham agrees.
> 
> ...



I am curious about just what has happened to you, and don't want to ask that you repeat it as I assume you've laid this out somewhere here on TUG.  Can you tell me where you have laid this out?  Thanks


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

kbosch74 said:


> I am curious about just what has happened to you, and don't want to ask that you repeat it as I assume you've laid this out somewhere here on TUG.  Can you tell me where you have laid this out?  Thanks


I didn't have any taken from me because being silver I don't have that many but a sales was made by my referral and taken by someone but wouldn't tell me who.


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## wjappraise (Jul 9, 2017)

kbosch74 said:


> I am curious about just what has happened to you, and don't want to ask that you repeat it as I assume you've laid this out somewhere here on TUG.  Can you tell me where you have laid this out?  Thanks



Post #52 on this thread.   Enjoy.  


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## kbosch74 (Jul 9, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Post #52 on this thread.   Enjoy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Good GAWD!  What a nightmare.  And to think we all probably started with Wyndham for vacations and get-aways!


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## cayman01 (Jul 9, 2017)

I think that VIP owners need to take a step back for bit on this cancel/rebook thing. I understand the anger and disappointment, but I am with brain dead on this in that you can still do it. And I think once the website is fixed properly you will have more success. I believe the current loss of c/r is more of a function of website ineptitude than Wyndham. And those thinking a "benefit" was taken away will be told by Wyndham they narrowed a "loophole". You can still do it. That is a no win situation as far as a lawsuit goes.


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## chapjim (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> You can still try to cancel/rebook. Some have tried and been successful.
> The auto upgrade doesn't seem to be taking the reservations available. In fact auto upgrade doesn't seem to be working at all





cayman01 said:


> I think that VIP owners need to take a step back for bit on this cancel/rebook thing. I understand the anger and disappointment, but I am with brain dead on this in that you can still do it. And I think once the website is fixed properly you will have more success. I believe the current loss of c/r is more of a function of website ineptitude than Wyndham. And those thinking a "benefit" was taken away will be told by Wyndham they narrowed a "loophole". You can still do it. That is a no win situation as far as a lawsuit goes.



You may be technically correct -- cancel and re-book may still be theoretically possible.  However, it will not be reliable, which it must be to be really useful.  VIP owners will not dare list a week for rental until they have successfully canceled/re-booked, no more than sixty days before check-in.  VIP owners will be able to make travel plans for their own vacations but won't know how much the week will cost then until sixty days or less before check-in.

When the website is fixed, it will get worse, not better.  If Wyndham implements the auto-upgrade "feature," cancel/re-book will nearly disappear for popular weeks, except for the smallest units.  Wyndham's was insidiously clever in making the rules changes.  They killed big renters and were still able to spin it as an enhancement.  The implementation has been disastrous.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

chapjim said:


> You may be technically correct -- cancel and re-book may still be theoretically possible.  However, it will not be reliable, which it must be to be really useful.  VIP owners will not dare list a week for rental until they have successfully canceled/re-booked, no more than sixty days before check-in.  VIP owners will be able to make travel plans for their own vacations but won't know how much the week will cost then until sixty days or less before check-in.
> 
> When the website is fixed, it will get worse, not better.  If Wyndham implements the auto-upgrade "feature," cancel/re-book will nearly disappear for popular weeks, except for the smallest units.  Wyndham's was insidiously clever in making the rules changes.  They killed big renters and were still able to spin it as an enhancement.  The implementation has been disastrous.


Kind of telling when your first topic is renting. I'm on record against discounts and upgrades on rentals.
Rent all you want but do it without the discounts and upgrades. I'm NOT AGAINST RENTING but that doesn't mean I think it should a lucrative deal either. Rent your extra points to cover the maintenance fees and be happy with a small profit.

I don't see auto upgrade ever working. As the upgrade rules work today. You can still cancel-rebook a 1 bedroom Presidential because the 1 bedroom Presidential isn't considered an upgrade
VIPs can still make that second backup reservation in case cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade doesn't work

Discounts and upgrades should be for you the owner. Not renters


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 9, 2017)

I believe that Wyndham's goal of killing off the megarenter's cheap rentals has worked ... those deeds will be given back to Wyndham for the most part.

I also see the rental market for Wyndham will NOT rebound ... vacation stays are a luxury and there are MANY other options to capture the flexible dollar spending. And the middle class is not a robust income wish as 15+ years ago NOR do retirees have those pension and corporate stock options of yesteryear to retire on.

I also see FEWER owner upgrades with direct points purchases ... the internet is used by almost anyone under 80yo now. Those with money are choosing exciting vacationing experiences .. different from the annual trek to the lake or grandma's or a timeshare resort.

But the major issue is ... Wyndham has been spending money for upgrading the vacation experience ... not their money, but the owner's money for rehabs and refurbishments. And then renting MORE units to Extra Holidays .. to bring in more new buyers and cash .. but NOT actually paying for those MFs inside the 60 days before checkin or resort upkeep.

So sure, Wyndham can offer a 3 night stay in a 1bdr/2bdr unit for $199 or less with the TOUR being required, pay the 'intended mark' $150 resort gift voucher while they are housed in a FREE unit (to Wyndham from the resort) .. but everyone of these attendees with their smart phone knows the math. A $25000+ points purchase makes NO SENSE when you get a "vacation tour stay" for under $100.

So the decline of Wyndham TS will pick up speed ...as  more deeds returned to the HOAs, lower sales to new owners, higher MFs in CWA, HOAs having more rehab expenses due to more renters & higher finish requirements from Corporate Wyndham (to improve Wyndham's rental market). And owners MFs will increase, while their vacation experience declines (buy points, get best unit) or Extra Holiday guests want that OCEANFRONT experience AND EHs can PROMISE them that unit.... for a few dollars more into the EH bank account.

The TS resort will become a luxury rental resort ... when NOT viable to Wyndham number wise, it will be closed (easy to do with CWA... after you got all the Fixed Week owners and CWP owners gone). And SOLD to become a CONDO. Those beach locations in Florida will fetch a million plus for each little slice of the water.

PS Wyndham is leasing units in other locales for their points owners to vacation at. "Just in time" resorts are cheaper & more flexible for Wyndham. Like CWA is better than CWP owners.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 9, 2017)

Logically you think this would be the case but somehow at the presentations they find marks who will let all logic fly out the window.  They will still be convinced that they won't be paying MF because they will get the CC and earn enough.  They will be convinced that they will be able to turn points into cruises and airfare for affordable vacations.  Then since they used their points to pay MF and cruise and buy airfare, they still can go to RCI and get week long vacation rentals for under $300 without using any of their points.  Even without mentioning Cancel/rebook or a 3 year credit pool it is astounding how many they convince to buy 84,000 or 105,000 EOY points or more with many, many of which do zero research or checking until days, weeks or even months after the rescission is long past.


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## bnoble (Jul 9, 2017)

dghenri said:


> I plan to fight this as for me there is something called a "verbal contract" and that was violated.



Unfortunately, the legal system disagrees with you. As Jim points out:


chapjim said:


> "BUYER does further acknowledge, agree, and warrant that the purchase of this Ownership Interest is made for BUYER'S personal use and that there have been no representations concerning rentals, rent potential or profit, tax advantages, depreciation or investment potential or other monetary or financial advantages and that none of such things have been represented to BUYER by SELLER, its agents, employee or associates."





Jan M. said:


> I don't remember the exact numbers but it was over 400 for Wyndham and I can't remember which but it was either less than half of that for all the other timeshare companies put together or under 200 for the next closest company.


Wyndham is also the largest (by far) timeshare system in terms of number of owners, so this should not be surprising in the least.


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## SherryFingerlin (Jul 9, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Funny as this might sounds, my feelings today, are that I can use our VIP to book some instantly upgraded rooms and still rent them for a decent profit.  Gone, perhaps, are the days of customizing dates, trimming a day here and there, checking in any day of the week, or 4 BR Pres dirt cheap.
> 
> Likely gone are the days of family reunions at Wyndham resorts (my father's intent when he purchased VIP).
> 
> I don't think Dad would be too disappointed if we take the profits from the rentals and apply them to a reasonably priced, non-Wyndham, vacation package of sorts so that we can continue to enjoy family times together.  THAT was his intent.




We were told that you must put your guest's name on the reservation within 48 hours of making the reservation. After 48 hours you cannot change the name. The intent is to eliminate people who are renting. I don't know how true this is, as I no longer believe anything I am being told by Wyndham. Did figure out that Wyndham has blocked me from posting to their FB page. Anyone else?


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## tschwa2 (Jul 9, 2017)

You can change the name on the guest cert, you just have to pay another fee to do so.  Many owners have multiple owners listed on the account.  As long as they have different names on each overlapping reservation, there is no problem and then a guest cert can be added with the actual rental guest at any time either using one of the annual allotment of GC or by paying the fee.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> he absolutely can use the points. More sales lies.


That is what has me ticked off. That has reduced my resale value of VIP to $1500 possibility for the $42000 I paid. I would really hope to see the Select members break away and form an XYZ club as the Fairshare Vacation Owners Assoc. Trust was. Today I finally was able to book my last vacation using remaining points in September and October (Smokey Mtn, Glade and Lake Lure for my last HooRah. After October it is up for sale and hopefully it will be to an XYZ member who will value what I have.  One more point for XYZ is to appreciate the owners and their guests. Allow us to decline any sales pitches and maybe go back to the family type party on Monday morning or Sunday evening with prizes and fun times$


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I think that VIP owners need to take a step back for bit on this cancel/rebook thing. I understand the anger and disappointment, but I am with brain dead on this in that you can still do it. And I think once the website is fixed properly you will have more success. I believe the current loss of c/r is more of a function of website ineptitude than Wyndham. And those thinking a "benefit" was taken away will be told by Wyndham they narrowed a "loophole". You can still do it. That is a no win situation as far as a lawsuit goes.





tschwa2 said:


> You can change the name on the guest cert, you just have to pay another fee to do so.  Many owners have multiple owners listed on the account.  As long as they have different names on each overlapping reservation, there is no problem and then a guest cert can be added with the actual rental guest at any time either using one of the annual allotment of GC or by paying the fee.


I believe the reason I have been happy with VIP Gold and Silver is that I very seldom rent out points and then only to close friends. I have never felt until this year that renting would help me but on my limited income and so many points to have to use in the year, I was pleased as the money was deposited just as I needed it.


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## 55plus (Jul 9, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> I believe the reason I have been happy with VIP Gold and Silver is that I very seldom rent out points and then only to close friends. I have never felt until this year that renting would help me but on my limited income and so many points to have to use in the year, I was pleased as the money was deposited just as I needed it.


Kiss that goodbye. The fix is in and Wyndham is benefiting from the new dysfunctional piece of crap website they shoved down our throats. A conflict of interest with no oversight means Wyndham and Extra Holidays win at yours and all the other owners' expense. Spread the work to friend and family and all perspective buyers you may know that resell is now the only true way to go. VIP means nothing because the VIP benefits have diminished considerably. Consider them the equivalent to junk bonds. Meaning, only Wyndham and Wyndham sales weasels will benefits, along with Extra Holidays.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> The fix is in and Wyndham is benefiting from the new dysfunctional piece of crap website they shoved down our throats. A conflict of interest with no oversight means Wyndham and Extra Holidays win at yours and all the other owners' expense.


How many attorneys or government agencies have you contacted ? If not why not if you believe what you post ? If it's true it would be an open and shut case and a class action lawsuit would be very rewarding for us owners.
You've posted Wyndham can't do anything to you. Your about ready to be an ex owner anyway.

I'll beat up on Wyndham with the next guy. But I'm growing tired of the same post a hundred times.
Just calling a spade a spade


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## 55plus (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> How many attorneys or government agencies have you contacted ? If not why not if you believe what you post ? If it's true it would be an open and shut case and a class action lawsuit would be very rewarding for us owners. You've posted Wyndham can't do anything to you. Your about ready to be an ex owner anyway. I'll beat up on Wyndham with the next guy. But I'm growing tired of the same post a hundred times.
> Just calling a spade a spade


It appears from another thread you don't agree with renting using discounted points, so that makes me think you must not have purchase a VIP level ownership and are upset that VIP level owners offset their costs by using discounted points. Then, commenting on my post about the 'Fix is in' for VIP renters. Are you one of the guys in the tank with Wyndham or are you just trying to curry favor with them or what? What about all the families who were sold VIP level ownership's on the pretense of being able to rent to pay maintenance fees and make some money. There wasn't a cavort in the sales weasels' presentations about only renting at full points. If that was the case then why not buy resell? Renting availability is, now was, a cottage industry Wyndham didn't consider, but they took advantage of it in terms of sales. And I'm sure they will continue to lie about renting to pay maintenance fees on the front end and on the back end keep the VIP benefits diminished to make it almost impossible to rent and cover maintenance fees.

Since I'm leaving the game I won't have any damages or standing therefor I don't have grounds to be part of a lawsuit. But that doesn't mean I can't standup and support those who are damaged by the dysfunctional piece of crap website Wyndham shoved down our throats. Based on the previous website compared to the new website, what is incorrect with my description? How do see it conspired to the previous website? The only thing the new website will do for me now is increase the value of my portfolio based on the increase of stock prices. And the new website will drive the stock prices up due to an increase in profits from Extra Holidays, a Wyndham Timeshare owners' biggest competitor, and not just VIP level owners/renters, but all owners when it comes to choice availability at high demand resorts and high demand timeframes. The fix is in and Wyndham will benefit from it because there is no oversight and a conflict of interest does exists.

But then again, what do I know? I'm just (soon to be was) an owner who has seen benefits diminish and fees increase considerably since Wyndham arrived. Fees go up, resorts do become nicer and Wyndham decides to create Extra Holidays and covet choice locations and timeframes to rent that we paid to update and upgrade through maintenance fees. And you don't see a conflict of interest or anything wrong with that?


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> It appears from another thread you don't agree with renting using discounted points, so that makes me think you must not have purchase a VIP level ownership and are upset that VIP level owners offset their costs by using discounted points. Then, commenting on my post about the 'Fix is in' for VIP renters. Are you one of the guys in the tank with Wyndham or are you just trying to curry favor with them or what? What about all the families who were sold VIP level ownership's on the pretense of being able to rent to pay maintenance fees and make some money. There wasn't a cavort in the sales weasels' presentations about only renting at full points. If that was the case then why not buy resell? Renting availability is, now was, a cottage industry Wyndham didn't consider, but they took advantage of it in terms of sales. And I'm sure they will continue to lie about renting to pay maintenance fees on the front end and on the back end keep the VIP benefits diminished to make it almost impossible to rent and cover maintenance fees.
> 
> Since I'm leaving the game I won't have any damages or standing therefor I don't have grounds to be part of a lawsuit. But that doesn't mean I can't standup and support those who are damaged by the dysfunctional piece of crap website Wyndham shoved down our throats. Based on the previous website compared to the new website, what is incorrect with my description? How do see it conspired to the previous website? The only thing the new website will do for me now is increase the value of my portfolio based on the increase of stock prices. And the new website will drive the stock prices up due to an increase in profits from Extra Holidays, a Wyndham Timeshare owners' biggest competitor, and not just VIP level owners/renters, but all owners when it comes to choice availability at high demand resorts and high demand timeframes. The fix is in and Wyndham will benefit from it because there is no oversight and a conflict of interest does exists.
> 
> But then again, what do I know? I'm just (soon to be was) an owner who has seen benefits diminish and fees increase considerably since Wyndham arrived. Fees go up, resorts do become nicer and Wyndham decides to create Extra Holidays and covet choice locations and timeframes to rent that we paid to update and upgrade through maintenance fees. And you don't see a conflict of interest or anything wrong with that?


Assume your correct. Wyndham takes all the good stuff. How did the mega renters and point managers thrive and make so much money if all the good stuff was gone? How did anyone cancel- rebook - cancel- upgrade any of the good stuff if Wyndham could grab those cancelled reservations at will ? Wyndham could've taken those cancelled reservations stopping discounted and upgrades away without changing any rules


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## 55plus (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Assume your correct. Wyndham takes all the good stuff. How did the mega renters and point managers thrive and make so much money if all the good stuff was gone? How did anyone cancel- rebook - cancel- rebook any of the good stuff if Wyndham could grab those cancelled reservations at will ? Wyndham could've taken those cancelled reservations stopping discounted and upgrades way without changing any rules


It's the new website that was developed and designed to hinder not just mega renters, but all renters and owners. Not the previous website. Why were limitations designed into the new website if it wasn't to hinder everyone, not just VIP level owners or renters? It has to do with control and to increase the bottom line through Extra Holidays. As an example, the owners can no longer see First Available and for how many days at 5 resorts or an entire region. Wyndham can and does. They can grab what the algorithm is setup to grab. Auto upgrades aren't working. I doubt auto upgrades will ever occur at choice locations/high demand timeframes when an owner cancels a reservation. Why would Wyndham assign a 2 or 3 bedroom as an upgrade when they can put it into Extra Holiday and profit from it. It's now in their control. There is no transparency like in the previous website. And forget about oversight. Wyndham is the fox and availability in the hen house. 

For retirees like me, my wife and family, the first available button was the greatest thing. We used it often. We can leave on the drop of a dime for as many days that are available and maybe grab more availability somewhere with the first available button while on the road. Now, it takes so much longer to find something it's frustrating and there is nothing there that use to be there historically, so something is amiss and I smell a rat in the website's design and development. The new website hinders our use of using our timeshare so why keep it? It's not worth the aggravation and frustration Wyndham designed into it. 

I'm out. But unless everyone voices anger and frustration about what Wyndham shoved down our throats in terms of the website you're going to stuck and have to live with it knowing it was done intentionally to hinder you using the same product they sold you or you purchased resell at a time when it was user friendly.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> It's the new website that was developed and designed to hinder not just mega renters, but all renters and owners. Not the previous website. Why were limitations designed into the new website if it wasn't to hinder everyone, not just VIP level owners or renters? It has to do with control and to increase the bottom line through Extra Holidays. As an example, the owners can no longer see First Available and for how many days at 5 resorts or an entire region. Wyndham can and does. They can grab what the algorithm is setup to grab. Auto upgrades aren't working. I doubt auto upgrades will ever occur at choice locations/high demand timeframes when an owner cancels a reservation. Why would Wyndham assign a 2 or 3 bedroom as an upgrade when they can put it into Extra Holiday and profit from it. It's now in their control. There is no transparency like in the previous website. And forget about oversight. Wyndham is the fox and availability in the hen house.
> 
> For retirees like me, my wife and family, the first available button was the greatest thing. We used it often. We can leave on the drop of a dime for as many days that are available and maybe grab more availability somewhere with the first available button while on the road. Now, it takes so much longer to find something it's frustrating and there is nothing there that use to be there historically, so something is amiss and I smell a rat in the website's design and development. The new website hinders our use of using our timeshare so why keep it? It's not worth the aggravation and frustration Wyndham designed into it.
> 
> I'm out. But unless everyone voices anger and frustration about what Wyndham shoved down our throats in terms of the website you're going to stuck and have to live with it knowing it was done intentionally to hinder you using the same product they sold you or you purchased resell at a time when it was user friendly.


I'm totally convinced the new website is here for one reason. 
EXTRA POINTS 
Wyndham could take the same reservations from from both websites


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## 55plus (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I'm totally convinced the new website is here for one reason. EXTRA POINTS
> Wyndham could take the same reservations from from both websites


The 'Extra Points' could be controlled through a couple lines of code or by other means, not by a new website that diminishes VIP level ownership values, is not user friendly and very time consuming and frustrating to use, when it's online. The new website was in the works prior to the 'Great Points Heist'. There is no other legitimate reason for the design and development of the new website that removed the first available search option and hinders its primary function, the ability to efficiently search for availability, other that to eliminate transparency in a round about way to benefit Wyndham's bottom line through Extra Holidays. Wyndham saw an opportunity and established Extra Holidays. And increased the revenue stream with the limitations designed into the new website. It's about their bottomline and not the owners use of the product they sold them.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> The 'Extra Points' could be controlled through a couple lines of code or by other means, not by a new website that diminishes VIP level ownership values, is not user friendly and very time consuming and frustrating to use, when it's online. The new website was in the works prior to the 'Great Points Heist'. There is no other legitimate reason for the design and development of the new website that removed the first available search option and hinders its primary function, the ability to efficiently search for availability, other that to eliminate transparency in a round about way to benefit Wyndham's bottom line through Extra Holidays. Wyndham saw an opportunity and established Extra Holidays. And increased the revenue stream with the limitations designed into the new website. It's about their bottomline and not the owners use of the product they sold them.


We will just have to respectfully disagree on this one. If the search feature and other issues aren't fixed in a year . I will have to agree with you.
But for now I'm giving Wyndham the benefit of doubt.
Voyager had been in the works for years and now became reality for a reason. We just don't agree what the reason was. But I do know 1 owner had 20 million extra points without even trying. I think that had an impact on where we are today


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## wjappraise (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I'm totally convinced the new website is here for one reason.
> EXTRA POINTS
> Wyndham could take the same reservations from from both websites



I'm not in that camp.  They've been designing the new website for years.  Long before extra points.  Extra points is a new development probably about the end of 2015 when they rolled out cancelled point changes. My guess is that program overlay had the problem in the way it returned cancelled points.  And if you ask owners who were aware of extra points every one of them will find that change started the problem.   

I would hope Wyndham found the glitch but I fear their incompetence prevented such a discovery.  And Lord knows they would not listen to any owner who may be able to help.   

The new website was going to make Wyndham more money as it was going to differentiate between developer points and resale points.  And sooner or later that will probably happen but it has not yet.  That would seem to generate a lot more savings than their current approach. For the life of me I cannot see any reason for the current abysmal state of the new website.  It does lend credence to those who are more conspiratorial in their suspicions.  The mere fact we can't find rooms at popular locations during peak weeks, but they exist on Extra Holidays does at least provide anecdotal evidence that the new website was designed to take inventory for EH.  And I think you would agree the whole EH arrangement is a conflict of interest for Wyndham.  

Last year I had a salesman (believe at your own risk) say the then current reservation website wouldn't let EH cherry pick reservations, that only the local resort could influence inventory by placing "holds" on cancelled inventory by claiming "maintenance issues."   That sure seemed to happen especially at Bonnet Creek and Glacier Canyon.  

So... some of the motivation attributed to Wyndham for the rushed website  does at least have some basis for belief.  At least as much as your belief that extra points was the motivation.  Basically it's a "extra points" vs "Extra Holidays" battle.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> Kiss that goodbye. The fix is in and Wyndham is benefiting from the new dysfunctional piece of crap website they shoved down our throats. A conflict of interest with no oversight means Wyndham and Extra Holidays win at yours and all the other owners' expense. Spread the work to friend and family and all perspective buyers you may know that resell is now the only true way to go. VIP means nothing because the VIP benefits have diminished considerably. Consider them the equivalent to junk bonds. Meaning, only Wyndham and Wyndham sales weasels will benefits, along with Extra Holidays.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 9, 2017)

I will just keep believing for the best to come from this mess. Continue to dream and be thankful for the near 20 years of membership. I still can't register for website but still use old user and  password.


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## happyhopian (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Kind of telling when your first topic is renting. I'm on record against discounts and upgrades on rentals.
> Rent all you want but do it without the discounts and upgrades. I'm NOT AGAINST RENTING but that doesn't mean I think it should a lucrative deal either. Rent your extra points to cover the maintenance fees and be happy with a small profit.
> 
> I don't see auto upgrade ever working. As the upgrade rules work today. You can still cancel-rebook a 1 bedroom Presidential because the 1 bedroom Presidential isn't considered an upgrade
> ...


Are you agreeing with me what we argued over two weeks ago 

Yes I've been saying for weeks that this is going to continue. It will not be feasible for large volume rental people because of the multi GC cost and the chance of auto-upgrade but in the current world of upgrades, there has ALWAYS been inventory inside 60 days. Why would that change now? Is there some belief that people didn't try to upgrade before when all they had to do was click on a button? The issue as I've said many times is that is must be an exact match.  Book two three or one 6 plus a 2 night. Cancel the 6, then upgrade you 1 br for the six nights on the 58th day....what's the chance that among all the rentals out there there is someone with a 6 night stay in the auto upgrade system. Sure its ossible but factor probable.

There are so many options I've come up with but right now the system is so buggy Wyndham's own staff can't make proper bookings. Give this until Novermber and 'm starting to think we will have more options.

BUT - I will still fight that Wyndham knew good and damn well what was goign on and facilitated it until they got burned on the folks who scaled the system to 30 million @ 3 years credit pool with 50% plus upgrade...yeah there's always they guy in the class who has to ruin it for everyone else. Yes Ron - when Wyndham said "you have to know that is not how we intended this to work" they were talking about you, not the c/r/u for individual owners which they've been selling and facilitating for at least the six years I've been doing it with them on the phone. For the record, I don't think what Ron or anyone else did was wrong but I think for Wyndham to take the action they took they were pissed and I think there was likely even an argument of fraud or even theft/conversion would be something that some needed to be very worried about had Wyndham chosen to go a criminal route. I was enlightened to this by one of the assistant Attorney General's I spoke with. In fact he also used the analogy of the bank putting too much money in someone's checking account as an accident and they owner of the account using those funds. He used that specific example and said they have had cases where those people were charged. It wasn't theft but it was conversion of something and I just didn't make a note of that beyond his thought that Wyndham was reacting to something much bigger than users upgrading units.

I've got a HOLD recommendation on Wyndham right now


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## happyhopian (Jul 9, 2017)

55plus said:


> The 'Extra Points' could be controlled through a couple lines of code or by other means, not by a new website that diminishes VIP level ownership values, is not user friendly and very time consuming and frustrating to use, when it's online. The new website was in the works prior to the 'Great Points Heist'. There is no other legitimate reason for the design and development of the new website that removed the first available search option and hinders its primary function, the ability to efficiently search for availability, other that to eliminate transparency in a round about way to benefit Wyndham's bottom line through Extra Holidays. Wyndham saw an opportunity and established Extra Holidays. And increased the revenue stream with the limitations designed into the new website. It's about their bottomline and not the owners use of the product they sold them.



FACT - there are a LOT of reasons for the new website folks. I've explained what I have been told from resort managers, owner care reps, triage / it reps. Remember they started programming and planning for this YEARS ago ( God I know how bad they must suck). They had to have a new website but they clearly didn't have the capability to roll out ALL the things they were trying to solve at once. Remember they didn't just change the booking - all inventory, inventory and room management, finances, deeds and ownership on and on - every system changed and its all tied back in multiple relational databases but one mistake in anyone and there is corruption. Problem for them is that clearly it isn't 'one' mistake its hundreds or thousands.

Bottom line - there is no ONE reason for any of this. That is a FACT.


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## happyhopian (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> But I do know 1 owner had 20 million extra points without even trying. I think that had an impact on where we are today



DING DING DING DING DING

WE HAVE A WINNER!


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> Are you agreeing with me what we argued over two weeks ago
> 
> Yes I've been saying for weeks that this is going to continue. It will not be feasible for large volume rental people because of the multi GC cost and the chance of auto-upgrade but in the current world of upgrades, there has ALWAYS been inventory inside 60 days. Why would that change now? Is there some belief that people didn't try to upgrade before when all they had to do was click on a button? The issue as I've said many times is that is must be an exact match.  Book two three or one 6 plus a 2 night. Cancel the 6, then upgrade you 1 br for the six nights on the 58th day....what's the chance that among all the rentals out there there is someone with a 6 night stay in the auto upgrade system. Sure its ossible but factor probable.
> 
> ...


Today things are like the old system. Owners have been able to do manual upgrades. Auto upgrades aren't working even though they should be happening for days. We will just have to wait and see what happens if they ever get the website working properly


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

Deleted guess it triple posted


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

delete double post


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## cayman01 (Jul 9, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> Are you agreeing with me what we argued over two weeks ago
> 
> Yes I've been saying for weeks that this is going to continue. It will not be feasible for large volume rental people because of the multi GC cost and the chance of auto-upgrade but in the current world of upgrades, there has ALWAYS been inventory inside 60 days. Why would that change now? Is there some belief that people didn't try to upgrade before when all they had to do was click on a button? The issue as I've said many times is that is must be an exact match.  Book two three or one 6 plus a 2 night. Cancel the 6, then upgrade you 1 br for the six nights on the 58th day....what's the chance that among all the rentals out there there is someone with a 6 night stay in the auto upgrade system. Sure its ossible but factor probable.
> 
> ...



 Remember that Ron was a small player in the megarenter sandbox. There were guys with access to well over 100 million points. And I am sure some of them figured out the extra points method of cancelling reservations. Think of how many points they brought into the system. That is why the new system was rolled out and suspensions occurred. And criminal charges just might be made to stick in some cases , though that will probably pretty hard to prove if a megarenter is accessing lots and lots of different accounts ("I didn't cancel those reservations the owner of the account did").


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## 55plus (Jul 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Today things are like the old system. Owners have been able to do manual upgrades. Auto upgrades aren't working even though they should be happening for days. We will just have to wait and see what happens if they ever get the website working properly


No so fast - nothing is like the previous website. Owners can only manually upgrade at the time of making the reservation. There is no manually way to upgrade after the reservation is made like owners could do on the previous website.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 10, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> Are you agreeing with me what we argued over two weeks ago
> 
> Yes I've been saying for weeks that this is going to continue. It will not be feasible for large volume rental people because of the multi GC cost and the chance of auto-upgrade but in the current world of upgrades, there has ALWAYS been inventory inside 60 days. Why would that change now? Is there some belief that people didn't try to upgrade before when all they had to do was click on a button? The issue as I've said many times is that is must be an exact match.  Book two three or one 6 plus a 2 night. Cancel the 6, then upgrade you 1 br for the six nights on the 58th day....what's the chance that among all the rentals out there there is someone with a 6 night stay in the auto upgrade system. Sure its ossible but factor probable.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I didn't purchase NY deeds for profiteering and this practice makes my deeds less valuable in my opinion since it causes more lawsuits.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 10, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> Thank you. I didn't purchase NY deeds for profiteering and this practice makes my deeds less valuable in my opinion since it causes more lawsuits.


My not NY


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## Nomad34 (Jul 10, 2017)

My price could not complete with Wyndham as I charge the 6.5% it cost me and if I have the discount in most cases I give it to them but I only have 25% now that I was demoted by trust.


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