# Lost in the cancel and Rebook game



## DeeDibble

I woke up early this morning and called Wyndham to cancel and rebook a reservation I have in south Florida in January 2015.   I cancelled it and asked them to grab it - he saw it and tried to grab it, he said it was there and then just DISAPPEARED!  Before we started he set up the search and I waited until he was ready before I confirmed and hit them cancel button...... I really believe Wyndham is snatching up the inventory!!!!  Anyone got any ideas?  Should I just sit on my computer the next 45 days and keep trying to re- coup this reservation?


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## ronparise

My advice for folks that gamble, whether its in Las Vegas, Atlantic City or playing the cancel and rebook game  is to never play with money or reservations you cant afford to lose. 

Of course nobody ever listens to my advice and its too late for you

I dont think Wyndham is taking this stuff, I think someone like me beat you to it. I have been on the computer 20 hours a day  looking for a New Years Eve /Sugar Bowl reservation in New Orleans...I got it too. 

So what to do now...The reservations desk is open until 11:45 pm and re opens tomorrow at 7am...get to work.


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## am1

There is something else going on besides Wyndham keeping the reservation and some just searching for reservations in my cases, I cannot speak for others why they lose them.   If Wyndham was going to keep it you would not see it come back at all.  As an example bc this fall.


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## Bigrob

DeeDibble said:


> I woke up early this morning and called Wyndham to cancel and rebook a reservation I have in south Florida in January 2015.   I cancelled it and asked them to grab it - he saw it and tried to grab it, he said it was there and then just DISAPPEARED!  Before we started he set up the search and I waited until he was ready before I confirmed and hit them cancel button...... I really believe Wyndham is snatching up the inventory!!!!  Anyone got any ideas?  Should I just sit on my computer the next 45 days and keep trying to re- coup this reservation?



I have lost several, sometimes in the same way you have. It's always a gamble. In general I set up the search so that I can grab it back myself out of hours.. if you're doing it while the center is open you have more competition.

Oh - and I believe I found someone else's attempted cancel/rebook, picking up Bonnet Creek New Year's Eve. So yes, you will want to keep checking to see if you can get it back. Especially as we get closer to the cancellation window, you might get lucky.


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## lcml11

I think people who engage in the practice of the opening bell theory have it all wrong.  Like the earlier poster suggested, I think the best time to do it is when your time zone is open though the computer and some of the other ones in the U.S. are not.

Be prepared to spend 15 to 20 minutes clicking the make reservation button.  Some have reported short delays in the cancelled one coming back up.

I fully believe the reason reservations are being lost this year are do the the massive influx of bonus point that were flooded into the system with the use year re-shuffle.  Remember they had to be used or lost or placed in the credit pool.


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## DeeDibble

ronparise said:


> My advice for folks that gamble, whether its in Las Vegas, Atlantic City or playing the cancel and rebook game  is to never play with money or reservations you cant afford to lose.
> 
> Of course nobody ever listens to my advice and its too late for you
> 
> I dont think Wyndham is taking this stuff, I think someone like me beat you to it. I have been on the computer 20 hours a day  looking for a New Years Eve /Sugar Bowl reservation in New Orleans...I got it too.
> 
> So what to do now...The reservations desk is open until 11:45 pm and re opens tomorrow at 7am...get to work.[/QUOTE
> 
> Is there a chance I can get a " new" reservation for the same timeframe if I work real hard at it?


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## tschwa2

There is always the _chance_ that you will catch the cancelled reservation of someone else trying to do the same thing you were doing.


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## DeeDibble

Shoot. I have been logging in about Every hour since about 8:05 ( exact time of losing the darned thing)so there is a chance I can get that same time frame.  If I try more than 3 times the system automatically stops me by requiring me to enter random characters to stay searching ( hope that made sense)


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## ronparise

DeeDibble said:


> Shoot. I have been logging in about Every hour since about 8:05 ( exact time of losing the darned thing)so there is a chance I can get that same time frame.  If I try more than 3 times the system automatically stops me by requiring me to enter random characters to stay searching ( hope that made sense)



I thought it was every 6 times...but yes they make you enter those random characters to keep searching/  Its how they stop the smart guys from programming their computers to search automatically.

recently I cancelled a new years eve reservation in New York. I didnt want to re book, but I was curious and kept watching it.  It only took about 15 minutes before someone else found it


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## tante

Newbie here trying to learn.  What is the point of canceling a reservation and rebooking? Do you use less points the closer you get to the reservation date?


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## Free2Roam

VIP members get point discounts within 60 days of checkin and unit size upgrades within 30,45 or 60 days depending on VIP level. There are also occasional resort specials where anyone can get point discounts.


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## Rent_Share

tante said:


> Newbie here trying to learn. What is the point of canceling a reservation and rebooking? Do you use less points the closer you get to the reservation date?



It's a feature (defect) of the system, that the Sales Scum pitched as a reason to buy enough points to have VIP privileges

The VIP's regularly post to complain when someone else ends up with the reservation. There are/were a group of renters that would do it on a reservation they had already rented and the renter may have already bought tickets.

The correct way is to book what you want at 10 or 13 months and have enough point to book it if it shows up in the 60 day window and cancel the full price reservation. Trying to make the low priced (points) reservation by cancelling and hoping no one else grabs it is just like Ron said gambling and shouldn't be done with any reservation you are NOT prepared to lose.


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## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> I thought it was every 6 times...but yes they make you enter those random characters to keep searching/  Its how they stop the smart guys from programming their computers to search automatically.
> 
> recently I cancelled a new years eve reservation in New York. I didnt want to re book, but I was curious and kept watching it.  It only took about 15 minutes before someone else found it



I'm surprised you cancelled without wanting to rebook. Seems like that would have been a nice rental? Would love to see something like that posted in this thread:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219117


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## NHTraveler

I have been canceling/rebooking since 2011 and I was successful 29 of 29 tries.  I tried to cancel/rebook Royal Vista back in October and lost it.  However, I had a unit over at Sea Gardens booked too.  Once I lost RV, I had my back up to fall on.


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## DeeDibble

NHTraveler said:


> I have been canceling/rebooking since 2011 and I was successful 29 of 29 tries.  I tried to cancel/rebook Royal Vista back in October and lost it.  However, I had a unit over at Sea Gardens booked too.  Once I lost RV, I had my back up to fall on.



So the question is: "do we dare do it again?"


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## NHTraveler

DeeDibble said:


> So the question is: "do we dare do it again?"



Well...I did...I took the chance and cancelled/rebooked the Sea Gardens without a back up.  The problem with doing it at Royal Vista is that it is one of the more wanted reservations, so someone may have been ready to pounce on one when they could or Wyndham took it.  Sea Gardens probably doesn't have the same demand...even though we think it is the better resort for that tropical feeling we enjoy.  We are happy with the reservation being at Sea Gardens.  We will be in the same unit for 17 nights, so that is a plus.  There is aways the risk of losing your reservation, so you just waqnt to have some sort of back up play if you do.


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## csxjohn

OK, what am I missing here?

If I look at a resort whether I have a ressie or not I can attempt to book a week and the site will tell me if there are any units available, they show that little calendar that lets you know if there's plenty, few, or none available.

If I see there are none available it would be crazy to cancel and try to re-book, I think.

If there is plenty of availability it should be no problem.

Or, is it that I can only have a look see when there are points available in the account to book that particular ressie?


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## Bigrob

csxjohn said:


> OK, what am I missing here?
> 
> If I look at a resort whether I have a ressie or not I can attempt to book a week and the site will tell me if there are any units available, they show that little calendar that lets you know if there's plenty, few, or none available.
> 
> If I see there are none available it would be crazy to cancel and try to re-book, I think.
> 
> If there is plenty of availability it should be no problem.
> 
> Or, is it that I can only have a look see when there are points available in the account to book that particular ressie?



You can always look whether you have points or not. You are right, that is the safest approach. But many have successfully cancelled and rebooked the same reservation, even when there are no other reservations available. It is dangerous, yes; but still frequently successful.


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## ronparise

csxjohn said:


> OK, what am I missing here?
> 
> If I look at a resort whether I have a ressie or not I can attempt to book a week and the site will tell me if there are any units available, they show that little calendar that lets you know if there's plenty, few, or none available.
> 
> If I see there are none available it would be crazy to cancel and try to re-book, I think.
> 
> If there is plenty of availability it should be no problem.
> 
> Or, is it that I can only have a look see when there are points available in the account to book that particular ressie?



Of course it's crazy. But consider this

I had a one bedroom and a three bedroom booked 10  months out. Inside 60 days the resort was completely booked.  I cancelled the one bedroom and re booked it at half price. Then I cancelled the three bedroom. Then I upgraded the one bedroom to the three

So a three bedroom at half the one bedroom rate plus a bunch of cancelled points that I use to make reservations for folks like you

Crazy ?  Sure, but This cancel and re book game is often the difference between profit and loss for the mega renters


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## persia

I once got a summer Glacier Canyon reservation at 60 days out. It's one of those times you know things might just appear, so you look.....


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## Rent_Share

ronparise said:


> Of course it's crazy. But consider this
> 
> I had a one bedroom and a three bedroom booked 10 months out. Inside 60 days the resort was completely booked. I cancelled the one bedroom and re booked it at half price. Then I cancelled the three bedroom. Then I upgraded the one bedroom to the three
> 
> So a three bedroom at half the one bedroom rate plus a bunch of cancelled points that I use to make reservations for folks like you
> 
> Crazy ? Sure, but This cancel and re book game is often the difference between profit and loss for the mega renters



If you had a either rented, would you have rolled the dice ?, your risk is you end up with all the points to try it again, if it didn't work


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## ronparise

Rent_Share said:


> If you had a either rented, would you have rolled the dice ?, your risk is you end up with all the points to try it again, if it didn't work



That reservation was for me. and if one of the steps had failed I would stil have had a reservation at some price. 

 And I dont play when the money is in the bank for a rental. 

I make my reservations  10-13 months in advance, and I start advertising 6 or so months in advance. Some get rented early, and some dont get rented until inside the 60 day mark. I make a little on the early ones, and a little more on the late ones.  Craigs list folks are notorious late bookers.


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## csxjohn

I see how it works now, thanks.

So "crazy" wasn't the right word unless someone could not afford to lose their ressie.  Should have used "very risky."

Any time I looked in my friends account there were points in there so I wasn't sure how it worked.


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## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> I'm surprised you cancelled without wanting to rebook. Seems like that would have been a nice rental? Would love to see something like that posted in this thread:
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219117



Im looking for another area to call my second specialty, but I didnt have the time to devote to learning what I need to know to even price this right...so I decided to let it go... besides I had something else to use the points for..A Sugar Bowl reservation to rent, and my own Christmas trip to Reunion


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## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Im looking for another area to call my second specialty, but I didnt have the time to devote to learning what I need to know to even price this right...so I decided to let it go... besides I had something else to use the points for..A Sugar Bowl reservation to rent, and my own Christmas trip to Reunion



Can't argue with that. But Midtown 45 would be a great location for New Year's with very convenient access to Times Square. And you being short of points is laughable!

FYI... I would have scooped that reservation up if I'd known you were cutting it loose. If I couldn't rent it I would have used it myself, but pretty sure it would rent easily.


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## DeeDibble

ronparise said:


> Of course it's crazy. But consider this
> 
> I had a one bedroom and a three bedroom booked 10  months out. Inside 60 days the resort was completely booked.  I cancelled the one bedroom and re booked it at half price. Then I cancelled the three bedroom. Then I upgraded the one bedroom to the three
> 
> So a three bedroom at half the one bedroom rate plus a bunch of cancelled points that I use to make reservations for folks like you
> 
> Crazy ?  Sure, but This cancel and re book game is often the difference between profit and loss for the mega renters



Yes!  I do that all the time!  It's what enables my husband and I to go to Florida 8-10 weeks a year and then vacation with family and friends throughout the year


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## chapjim

ronparise said:


> Crazy ?  Sure, but This cancel and re book game is often the difference between profit and loss for the mega renters



For me, you can cancel "often."  Other than some (but not all) event weeks, I don't see much of a market for rentals at full price.  $850 or $1,000 for a week at Bonnet Creek is a decent price, depending on the size of a unit.  I don't think I'd do much business at $1,700 or $2,000.

My "formula price" for a  4BR Pres unit at Bonnet Creek in the spring would be over $3,000.  That's a lot to expect Dad to fork out.


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## DeeDibble

chapjim said:


> For me, you can cancel "often."  Other than some (but not all) event weeks, I don't see much of a market for rentals at full price.  $850 or $1,000 for a week at Bonnet Creek is a decent price, depending on the size of a unit.  I don't think I'd do much business at $1,700 or $2,000.
> 
> My "formula price" for a  4BR Pres unit at Bonnet Creek in the spring would be over $3,000.  That's a lot to expect Dad to fork out.



When you say:  you can cancel "often" are you saying you cancel and rebook with success most of the time?


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## CO skier

DeeDibble said:


> When you say:  you can cancel "often" are you saying you cancel and rebook with success most of the time?





ronparise said:


> My advice for folks that gamble, whether its in Las Vegas, Atlantic City or playing the cancel and rebook game  is to never play with money or reservations you cant afford to lose.





Bigrob said:


> But many have successfully cancelled and rebooked the same reservation, even when there are no other reservations available. It is dangerous, yes; but still frequently successful.





Lather, rinse, repeat.


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## vacationhopeful

When gambling, there are only odds. There is no perfect "system" and no system is "perfect". Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose; the HOUSE always makes a profit by winning more times than losing.

*I fully agree with Ron .... if rented, you do NOT GAMBLE. *

If you are thinking of using it yourself, spin the wheel. 

If you HOPE to rent it or to move it and at a lower price, spin the wheel. 

*If you definitely are planning to go and maybe with family or friends, don't even think of spinning the wheel.*


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## vacationhopeful

CO skier said:


> Lather, rinse, repeat.



Good one ... experience teaches a person many things.


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## lcml11

vacationhopeful said:


> Good one ... experience teaches a person many things.



The above words are words of wisdom, let it be let it be.


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## Angela5svr

Bigrob said:


> I have lost several, sometimes in the same way you have. It's always a gamble. In general I set up the search so that I can grab it back myself out of hours.. if you're doing it while the center is open you have more competition.
> 
> Oh - and I believe I found someone else's attempted cancel/rebook, picking up Bonnet Creek New Year's Eve. So yes, you will want to keep checking to see if you can get it back. Especially as we get closer to the cancellation window, you might get lucky.



keep my thoughts to myself. if you private message me I will  help you get it. depends how many days as to what stram it goes through. wyndham legally has to drop inventory before the bookw developer points to sell for cash. wyn is your number 1competiton. not to mention they put web holds up all the time this issomething  only inventory control knows about no one at any vip or member services  line. guys they keep it all separated for a reason. lol


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## DeeDibble

Angela5svr said:


> keep my thoughts to myself. if you private message me I will  help you get it. depends how many days as to what stram it goes through. wyndham legally has to drop inventory before the bookw developer points to sell for cash. wyn is your number 1competiton. not to mention they put web holds up all the time this issomething  only inventory control knows about no one at any vip or member services  line. guys they keep it all separated for a reason. lol


Anggela5svr.   I'd like to hear more!


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## chapjim

DeeDibble said:


> When you say:  you can cancel "often" are you saying you cancel and rebook with success most of the time?



No.  I meant you can delete the word "often" in that sentence.  It didn't come out right!


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## ronparise

My latest experience playing cancel and rebook:

Did it 10 times this evening successfully,,,and they came back fast.


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## DeeDibble

I'm scared to try it!


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## chapjim

DeeDibble said:


> I'm scared to try it!


  It's like jumping out of an airplane and hoping the parachute rigger did his job.


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## DeeDibble

I know Chapjim... Now if Ronparise would share his secret to his success I'd be a happy camper!  LOL!  ......I talked to Wyndham earlier today and they said that the system has been having a lot of " glitches" and running slow.  They also said the call centers were slammed with calls.  She said it would be really risky to try the rebook/cancel so I think I will wait it out and check back in with them after the 1st before I start rebooking and canceling again


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## ronparise

DeeDibble said:


> I know Chapjim... Now if Ronparise would share his secret to his success I'd be a happy camper!  LOL!  ......I talked to Wyndham earlier today and they said that the system has been having a lot of " glitches" and running slow.  They also said the call centers were slammed with calls.  She said it would be really risky to try the rebook/cancel so I think I will wait it out and check back in with them after the 1st before I start rebooking and canceling again



no secrets  just playing the odds...  I had ten and could afford to lose a few. If I had lost one I would have stopped and come back another day...Also it wasnt a big date. It was the week before Mardi Gras in New Orleans. The place is sold out, but there's not a lot of rental demand.


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## DeeDibble

Gotcha!   Yea,  I have a week around Presidents Day along with Valentines Day I absolutely can't afford to lose.  I did get one of the reservations back on Saturday without a problem but scared to play with the others since we have 11 other people coming with us that week!  Trying to roll the dice early on a Sunday morning blew up in my face a few weeks ago ( as you well know) so now I'm trying to come up with safer times to cancel/rebook.


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## ecwinch

To benefit from the unit upgrade benefit does both unit sizes need to be available at the 60 day mark?

i.e. to book a 2BR for the 1BR points, do both a 1 BR and 2 BR need to be available at the 60 day mark?


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## ronparise

ecwinch said:


> To benefit from the unit upgrade benefit does both unit sizes need to be available at the 60 day mark?
> 
> i.e. to book a 2BR for the 1BR points, do both a 1 BR and 2 BR need to be available at the 60 day mark?



Eric...If they were available there is no risk  and no problem. If they are both available there will be a button next to the one bedroom to click to upgrade....The issue is that if the place is sold out, you risk losing your reservation playing around to get the discount and upgrade. 

The basic cancel and rebook is started months earlier by making the reservation when it is available. Then when you are within the discount  window (and there is no availability) cancel your reservation that was booked months earlier at full points and immediately re book with your discount

The more advanced process would be to make both the one bedroom and 2 bedroom reservations early, then when in the discount/upgrade  window, cancel the one bedroom and rebook with the discount, then cancel the 2 bedroom and upgrade the onebedroom into it.  That way you get the 2 bedroom at half the one bedroom price,  

This is actually a low risk way to play it. If you fail to rebook the one bedroom...stop!  at least the 2 bedroom is booked..  If you get the one bedroom done and fail to get the two....at least you have a one bedroom for your vacation. 

The biggest problem is that you generate a lot of cancelled points and they will expire at the end of the year... Its why you see me doing a lot of cheap rentals late in the year. I need to put my cancelled points to work.


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## jebloomquist

I have been doing the rent, cancel, rebook, cancel an upgrade unit, upgrade to it for quite some time. However, as of late, there seems to be something grabbing cancelled units at a much higher rate than ever before. 

Does someone have a program that is monitoring cancellations? I don't know, but the game has changed.

Good luck to anyone playing it.

Jim


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## ecwinch

Ron - again thanks for that detail.


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## chapjim

DeeDibble said:


> I know Chapjim... Now if Ronparise would share his secret to his success I'd be a happy camper!  LOL!  ......I talked to Wyndham earlier today and they said that the system has been having a lot of " glitches" and running slow.  They also said the call centers were slammed with calls.  She said it would be really risky to try the rebook/cancel so I think I will wait it out and check back in with them after the 1st before I start rebooking and canceling again



I was going to suggest that Ron has no secret but he beat me to it!

I remain convinced that the key is overbooking, in one of its many forms.  And, there is some randomness in the overbooking.  It isn't always a deliberate thing on the part of the resort (unlike airlines, which do it intentionally).  It isn't always prime weeks, although it must be fairly busy weeks.

I've rebooked 4BR Presidential units at Bonnet Creek during spring break using a 1BR unit as Ron describes, ending up with a 4BR Pres unit for half the cost of a 1BR unit.  The 4BR Pres was reserved fourteen months before check-in and the 1BR unit reserved a month later.

Like Ron, I had some real bargains at the end of this year, some of which I couldn't give away.  (Nobody wants to go to Panama City Beach in December, it seems, no matter how cheap it is.  But that's what was available.)  Total lost was about 250K points.  I'd would have liked to sell the reservations but by the end of the year, I'd used the points three or four times.


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## chapjim

ecwinch said:


> To benefit from the unit upgrade benefit does both unit sizes need to be available at the 60 day mark?
> 
> i.e. to book a 2BR for the 1BR points, do both a 1 BR and 2 BR need to be available at the 60 day mark?



No.  You make your own "availability" when you cancel reservations you made way back when.


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## am1

Overbooking it never comes back.  The other situation is it comes back but is gone before you or the VC can grab it.  It is gone faster then any human can grab it.


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## DeeDibble

Wyndham keeps telling me it's because there are so many members sitting on their computers and searching over and over.......they also said extra holidays can't just " grab" them as they have to be deposited in EH by owners........but why would all the contracts say something about Wyndham having the right at the 60 day mark to use any left over inventory for the purpose of renting it out ?


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## Sandi Bo

am1 said:


> Overbooking it never comes back.  The other situation is it comes back but is gone before you or the VC can grab it.  It is gone faster then any human can grab it.



I'm pretty convinced someone's got something programmed.   The 'gone faster than any human can grab it' is happening much too frequently these days.


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## vacationhopeful

Sandi Bo said:


> I'm pretty convinced someone's got something programmed.   The 'gone faster than any human can grab it' is happening much too frequently these days.



Agreed. 

LET'S suppose it is NOT a Wyndham inside job -- but actually an owner or 3rd party corporation offering rentals - Wyndham most likely would NOT comment or even hint at a breach of their computer systems & interfaces. 

I truly believe it is a computer "job" to grab units that fast ... and I have some computer education. People are NOT that fast - that often - no matter how many individuals are out there searching - over & over again.

And it is not any PC driven program, either. You have to have a very HIGH SPEED data connection. 

Plus, it will get better and get more extensive - Yes, there are areas not yet "hit". But the better it becomes by identifying those HIGH rental demand weeks & units sizes ... more & more people here on TUG will notice.

Next area of programming should be ARP dates but convincing the computer to use points NOT DEEDED (and not just regular points); after that it will be applying discounts & upgrades outside the windows OR applying discounts to member numbers who do NOT have that feature. (I think that would be easy to do, by ghosting the member number profile).


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## DeeDibble

Wyndham tells me that they work constantly on the security of the system to prevent that


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## Bigrob

I am wondering if it is mostly a couple of specific resorts. anyone care to post where you've lost cancel/rebooks? I've lost mine at Bonnet Creek.


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## vacationhopeful

DeeDibble said:


> Wyndham tells me that they work constantly on the security of the system to prevent that



Remember this: Wyndham's core management is from Sales. Sales is the organization which produces great talent to BS and spin half truths to total fantasy. Really GOOD computer people get paid really GREAT dollars and have egos also ... these computer people are nerds.


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## Rent_Share

Could it simply be a painless solution to an aggressive (over) booking policy that backs up as more units are required to be taken off line for maintenance, resulting in certain units not being automatically returned for reservations, when cancelled.

 I don't have a dog in this fight


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## vacationhopeful

Rent_Share said:


> Could it simply be a painless solution to an aggressive (over) booking policy that backs up as more units are required to be taken off line for maintenance, resulting in certain units not being automatically returned for reservations, when cancelled.
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight



Yes, that has happened -- usually. Usually, if you call the resort you will be able to get that info or sometimes, if is posted on TUG. 

A few days ago, the water main break at Ocean Walk was posted ... covering multiple floors with repairs going on for a good length of time. Trust me, I would not cancel ANY Ocean Walk units until that work is done & units have been refurbished ... it takes awhile to get furniture that will blend into that Art Décor resort style.


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## Sandi Bo

Bigrob said:


> I am wondering if it is mostly a couple of specific resorts. anyone care to post where you've lost cancel/rebooks? I've lost mine at Bonnet Creek.



Mine have been Bonnet Creek as well.   Any yes + to everything Linda said.  

One example -- I have watched as someone mid-day will cancel and rebook multiple units over and over once within the 60 day period.  They are not concerned about losing them.  They have to be programmatically grabbing them. 

If I am going to cancel/rebook I do one transaction.   Then I'll try the upgrade another time.  I might space that over a few days if I have multiple.  I would never be so bold as to think I could cancel/rebook/upgrade over and over -for the same dates and time frame.   Unless I had a program doing it for me.  Kind of like they're teasing us.

If Wyndham was recovering due to overbooking we would never see the reservation come back into the system.  I do not think this is Wyndham.  At least it is not them recovering an overbooked room.  Now could it be Extra Holidays?


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## ronparise

Sandi Bo said:


> I'm pretty convinced someone's got something programmed.   The 'gone faster than any human can grab it' is happening much too frequently these days.



Sandi 

I dont have to be as fast as a computer . Its just like if you and I were trying to outrun a bear in the woods....I only have to be faster than you

And thats not even necessary. If I  clicked on the search button just after you hit the cancel button. I would see the availability before you got off the cancel screen. I would be clicking on the select button  as you were clicking on the availability button

That isnt to say no one has figured out a computer program to do the searching automatically, I think they have. Its just that with 500000 owners and only one Christmas week at Bonnet Creek, I think we lose some reservations to regular folks with fast fingers. 

I know that there are major points management companies that dont have a computer program, but they do pay employees to click and click all day


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## Sandi Bo

ronparise said:


> Sandi
> 
> I dont have to be as fast as a computer . Its just like if you and I were trying to outrun a bear in the woods....I only have to be faster than you
> 
> And thats not even necessary. If I  clicked on the search button just after you hit the cancel button. I would see the availability before you got off the cancel screen. I would be clicking on the select button  as you were clicking on the availability button
> 
> That isnt to say no one has figured out a computer program to do the searching automatically, I think they have. Its just that with 500000 owners and only one Christmas week at Bonnet Creek, I think we lose some reservations to regular folks with fast fingers.
> 
> I know that there are major points management companies that dont have a computer program, but they do pay employees to click and click all day



I agree Ron, but, I don't think you can be faster than me 20 out of 20 times.


----------



## DeeDibble

Bigrob - I've lost reservations at Palm Aire.... I think that all those Bonus Points that the Wyndham Weasels are giving to people are a part of the problem.   The last few member updates they have offered to sell us 213,000 points (example) then throw in another 213,000 for a year so we can " try" and see how we like having a Platinum Account.  It's like they are Meth Dealers!  Get them " hooked" so they will buy more.   I feel like they are OVER SELLING Everything out from under current owners.  As the year 2014 ends these people recognize they need to book it or lose it (bonus points) and there has been a " rush" to south Florida using the 2015 Points they have.  Time will tell how many of these will actually go ahead and purchase those "Bonus Points" when they are cornered on their 2015 Vacation - pool talk this year will be really interesting!


----------



## SMHarman

ronparise said:


> Sandi
> 
> I dont have to be as fast as a computer . Its just like if you and I were trying to outrun a bear in the woods....I only have to be faster than you
> 
> And thats not even necessary. If I  clicked on the search button just after you hit the cancel button. I would see the availability before you got off the cancel screen. I would be clicking on the select button  as you were clicking on the availability button
> 
> That isnt to say no one has figured out a computer program to do the searching automatically, I think they have. Its just that with 500000 owners and only one Christmas week at Bonnet Creek, I think we lose some reservations to regular folks with fast fingers.
> 
> I know that there are major points management companies that dont have a computer program, but they do pay employees to click and click all day


That's why you have two Windows open or two computers. 

One on the cancel screen one on the book screen. 

The second you press the cancel button the system has it recorded. Not when the web page reloads. The Redbook can be hit seconds later.


----------



## SMHarman

Sandi Bo said:


> I agree Ron, but, I don't think you can be faster than me 20 out of 20 times.


We know one of our Starwood owners on yhis site did this for the svn booking engine. 

Once you know or figure out the api you bypass the web interface.


----------



## comicbookman

Sandi Bo said:


> I agree Ron, but, I don't think you can be faster than me 20 out of 20 times.



Ron doesn't have to be faster than you 20 out of 20 times.  One of the hundreds of thousands of owners does.  Just one.  The odds are actually against you most of the time.


----------



## vacationhopeful

SMHarman said:


> We know one of our Starwood owners on yhis site did this for the svn booking engine.
> 
> Once you know or figure out the api you bypass the web interface.



People who do not understand computer internals don't realize there are ways to NOT be flipping screens and making individual selections. 

Also, all a real person has to do is ... start the underlying program and then review the NEW BOOKINGs. If stuff is booked within the 15 day window, they must cancel reservations booked that day.


----------



## bnoble

> I have some computer education. People are NOT that fast - that often - no matter how many individuals are out there searching - over & over again.


So do I---and I'd describe it as more than "some," as it happens---and if you have enough people, then in the aggregate they *can* be that fast.

Where would you have that many people looking?  Popular resorts, during high-demand time.  Just the same sorts of places that could also be subject to overbooking or EH demand.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter why it is happening.  It is happening, and those who plan to cancel/rebook need to be aware of the risks.


----------



## am1

I guess some will keep their heads in the sand.  

It does not matter if there are 500 000 owners looking if 20 of 20 reservation are lost (but came back) it is not because some else just happened to be searching at that time.  

Bonus points come from unsold wyndham inventory.  Wyndham is by far the largest point owner.  

There needs to be a push back on Wyndham to correct this.

In the past the call center was faster then the computer so it was less of an issue if one knew what they were doing.


----------



## Ron2

DeeDibble said:


> Bigrob - I've lost reservations at Palm Aire.... I think that all those Bonus Points that the Wyndham Weasels are giving to people are a part of the problem.   The last few member updates they have offered to sell us 213,000 points (example) then throw in another 213,000 for a year so we can " try" and see how we like having a Platinum Account.  It's like they are Meth Dealers!  Get them " hooked" so they will buy more.   I feel like they are OVER SELLING Everything out from under current owners.  As the year 2014 ends these people recognize they need to book it or lose it (bonus points) and there has been a " rush" to south Florida using the 2015 Points they have.  Time will tell how many of these will actually go ahead and purchase those "Bonus Points" when they are cornered on their 2015 Vacation - pool talk this year will be really interesting!



Bonus points are only a small portion of the problem of all the extra points out there competing with the average owner. Likely the biggest one is the very topic being discussed in this thread – cancel/rebook. Since Wyndham extends the VIP benefits to all points owned by a VIP (including resale),  the number of points available for the discount period cancel/rebook process significantly increases the total number of points competing for the limited number of reservations. The PIC program also brings additional points into the system without providing additional reservation opportunities for other owners. Personally I think Wyndham needs to do something to get this issue of excess points under control before the system becomes so saturated and bloated with points that it eventually fails.


----------



## ada903

Can someone please clarify this? Online reservations open for me at 4 am pacific time, do they open earlier for east coast folks at 4 am EST? I would assume the system is open for everyone at the same time, which is 7 am EST and 4 am Pacific Time?



lcml11 said:


> I think people who engage in the practice of the opening bell theory have it all wrong.  Like the earlier poster suggested, I think the best time to do it is when your time zone is open though the computer and some of the other ones in the U.S. are not.


----------



## ada903

I thought you could not be logged into the same account from two different computers at once?



SMHarman said:


> That's why you have two Windows open or two computers.
> 
> One on the cancel screen one on the book screen.
> 
> The second you press the cancel button the system has it recorded. Not when the web page reloads. The Redbook can be hit seconds later.


----------



## am1

Ron2 said:


> Bonus points are only a small portion of the problem of all the extra points out there competing with the average owner. Likely the biggest one is the very topic being discussed in this thread – cancel/rebook. Since Wyndham extends the VIP benefits to all points owned by a VIP (including resale),  the number of points available for the discount period cancel/rebook process significantly increases the total number of points competing for the limited number of reservations. The PIC program also brings additional points into the system without providing additional reservation opportunities for other owners. Personally I think Wyndham needs to do something to get this issue of excess points under control before the system becomes so saturated and bloated with points that it eventually fails.




The pic weeks get deposited into rci.  That means less wyndham weeks go to rci.  This may or may not be benefitting you as a Wyndham owner.  

As long as wyndham keeps building excess points is less of an issue.


----------



## SMHarman

ada903 said:


> I thought you could not be logged into the same account from two different computers at once?


Depends how smart wyndhams tech is. Does the tech look to the public up address or the local up address or some other item. 
You can have two sessions open on two different tabs or browsers on the same pc.


----------



## ronparise

SMHarman said:


> Depends how smart wyndhams tech is. Does the tech look to the public up address or the local up address or some other item.
> You can have two sessions open on two different tabs or browsers on the same pc.



I have more than one account and more than one computer,


----------



## vacationhopeful

ronparise said:


> I have more than one account and more than one computer,



Ditto .... 

Will have to try the one account open off 2 different computers & browsers (although today most people have a wifi internet connection and a cell phone connection).

Plus, a mega-renter & broker would have several computers and staff where one is cancelling stuff and the other setup is set to book and grab the just released unit.


----------



## ada903

I have been kicked out of the account when someone else was logged in from a different state.  However I haven't tried two browser windows I will try that.


----------



## comicbookman

bnoble said:


> So do I---and I'd describe it as more than "some," as it happens---and if you have enough people, then in the aggregate they *can* be that fast.
> 
> Where would you have that many people looking?  Popular resorts, during high-demand time.  Just the same sorts of places that could also be subject to overbooking or EH demand.
> 
> The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter why it is happening.  It is happening, and those who plan to cancel/rebook need to be aware of the risks.



I also have more than "some" computer experience and I completely agree with the above.


----------



## vacationhopeful

DeeDibble said:


> Wyndham tells me that they work constantly on the security of the system to prevent that



The "sales" department? The CSRs on the 1-800 line? Source of your info?

By now you have heard about the USA Movie company & North Korea government? Basicly what many would agree should have been a 1st class USA company with a BIG computer budget gets clunked by a 3rd world country because a movie painted a poor image of their leader? You think the Wyndham computer staff is really good enough to be the A+++ team regarding a secure reservation system?


----------



## Sandi Bo

ada903 said:


> I have been kicked out of the account when someone else was logged in from a different state.  However I haven't tried two browser windows I will try that.



You must be in the same browser -- but you can open multiple tabs in the same browser.   

Only one person can be logged into an account at a time.  If someone else logs in, your session will no longer be able to book a reservation (you'll get an error message). 

Don't open more than one browser.  Especially different ones (as in chrome, IE, and/or Firefox) -- authentication does not cross browsers and it will be just like logging in on a different computer and you will get a multiple session error.

For example, open IE -- and open two tabs. 
* Tab1 - Search until you get the authentication window, and enter the letters (so you know you have 6 times to search before you have to enter the letters again).  Suggest searching for what you are about to cancel so you are ready to go.   
* Tab2 - Bring up your confirmation window in your 2nd tab. And cancel your reservation.  
* Tab1 - Go back to your search. Unless a really lucky person, or a program, is looking for your reservation -- you should see it in about 20 seconds 

Practice when you have nothing to lose.  Watch the behavior.  Open multiple tabs and select the reservation without actually booking it so you are sure you don't see the multiple reservations or sessions errors.

And yes, there is risk.


----------



## ada903

Thank you Sandi!  I did just that with safari multiple tabs and lost a president week one bedroom and I can't believe a human could have gotten it so fast. I saw it coming back but it's as if something was holding it and took it from me.  That's ok... Ron was that you? Lol


----------



## DeeDibble

ronparise said:


> I have more than one account and more than one computer,


Hold the Boat Roparise!   Let me see if I understand your method:    you log in and cancel your reservation and at the same time you have entered the criteria on a search and hit that button at the same time you cancel (or count to 5)  
OR 
you have 2 accounts and can cancel with one account and grab it with another?


----------



## DeeDibble

Sandi Bo said:


> You must be in the same browser -- but you can open multiple tabs in the same browser.
> 
> Only one person can be logged into an account at a time.  If someone else logs in, your session will no longer be able to book a reservation (you'll get an error message).
> 
> Don't open more than one browser.  Especially different ones (as in chrome, IE, and/or Firefox) -- authentication does not cross browsers and it will be just like logging in on a different computer and you will get a multiple session error.
> 
> For example, open IE -- and open two tabs.
> * Tab1 - Search until you get the authentication window, and enter the letters (so you know you have 6 times to search before you have to enter the letters again).  Suggest searching for what you are about to cancel so you are ready to go.
> * Tab2 - Bring up your confirmation window in your 2nd tab. And cancel your reservation.
> * Tab1 - Go back to your search. Unless a really lucky person, or a program, is looking for your reservation -- you should see it in about 20 seconds
> 
> Practice when you have nothing to lose.  Watch the behavior.  Open multiple tabs and select the reservation without actually booking it so you are sure you don't see the multiple reservations or sessions errors.
> 
> And yes, there is risk.


Sandi Bo - I never knew I could open 2 tabs and not get kicked out of the system - I just pulled up my account and went on the "Make a Reservation page" - opened up my account on the 2nd tab and pulled up my current reservations - I'M scared "sh":less" to do it BUT it seems like I have a better chance of retrieving my cancelled reservations if I did it the way you suggested.    I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is someone out there with a system that is grabbing stuff - we just don't know if a system is doing this from the time the website opens up until it closes at night.  As stated over and over in these threads there are lots and lots of members sitting on their computers doing the same thing.  I guess I have a less of a chance of losing the reservation if the other person is cancelling and rebooking THEIR reservations - I lose when someone is just looking and gets lucky to be searching at the exact same time I cancel


----------



## Bigrob

ada903 said:


> Can someone please clarify this? Online reservations open for me at 4 am pacific time, do they open earlier for east coast folks at 4 am EST? I would assume the system is open for everyone at the same time, which is 7 am EST and 4 am Pacific Time?



I can clarify. Online is open to everyone at the same time. An hour before the call center opens. 4AM on the west coast, 7AM on the east. The problem with first thing in the AM is people trying to catch hard to book reservations at the 10-month window might also be checking for nice cancellations.


----------



## Bigrob

Sandi Bo said:


> You must be in the same browser -- but you can open multiple tabs in the same browser.
> 
> Only one person can be logged into an account at a time.  If someone else logs in, your session will no longer be able to book a reservation (you'll get an error message).
> 
> Don't open more than one browser.  Especially different ones (as in chrome, IE, and/or Firefox) -- authentication does not cross browsers and it will be just like logging in on a different computer and you will get a multiple session error.
> 
> For example, open IE -- and open two tabs.
> * Tab1 - Search until you get the authentication window, and enter the letters (so you know you have 6 times to search before you have to enter the letters again).  Suggest searching for what you are about to cancel so you are ready to go.
> * Tab2 - Bring up your confirmation window in your 2nd tab. And cancel your reservation.
> * Tab1 - Go back to your search. Unless a really lucky person, or a program, is looking for your reservation -- you should see it in about 20 seconds
> 
> Practice when you have nothing to lose.  Watch the behavior.  Open multiple tabs and select the reservation without actually booking it so you are sure you don't see the multiple reservations or sessions errors.
> 
> And yes, there is risk.



There is another neat trick you can do with this as well, without going into detail it can help what you upgrade in to. It may involve a LOT of tabs. But it doesn't create any additional cancelled points. HINT: it's applicable when the resort isn't sold out.


----------



## ada903

That makes sense, thank you 




Bigrob said:


> I can clarify. Online is open to everyone at the same time. An hour before the call center opens. 4AM on the west coast, 7AM on the east. The problem with first thing in the AM is people trying to catch hard to book reservations at the 10-month window might also be checking for nice cancellations.


----------



## ada903

I have done that too  works well for resorts with smaller inventory. 



Bigrob said:


> There is another neat trick you can do with this as well, without going into detail it can help what you upgrade in to. It may involve a LOT of tabs. But it doesn't create any additional cancelled points. HINT: it's applicable when the resort isn't sold out.


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> There is another neat trick you can do with this as well, without going into detail it can help what you upgrade in to. It may involve a LOT of tabs. But it doesn't create any additional cancelled points. HINT: it's applicable when the resort isn't sold out.



I guess you never watched fight club.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> I guess you never watched fight club.



Actually I have.. I love that movie, Edward Norton and Brad Pitt are both great in it. But the allusion escapes me.


----------



## SMHarman

Bigrob said:


> Actually I have.. I love that movie, Edward Norton and Brad Pitt are both great in it. But the allusion escapes me.


First rule of fight club...


----------



## Bigrob

SMHarman said:


> First rule of fight club...



Ahhh. Thanks. Well a slight pay it forward given how many tips I've gotten from here was due.

Has everyone else noticed that after clicking the upgrade button it takes a long time to refresh before the screen comes back? Makes me nervous every time.

Another tip, in case you have had the issue I had last night. It seems the behavior of results returned is different if you click the date rather than either reloading/refreshing the page, or re-entering the search link in the address bar. Last night I thought I lost a reservation because it didn't show up when I refreshed or followed the same link (bringing me to the page that showed availability for the specific date). But when I actually clicked the date on the calendar with my requested stay, it showed up again. And I was reminded that had happened to me once before. Not sure if that's because that forces the cookies to refresh and the other methods don't, or what, but if you're checking for reservations based on copying the link location that gets you to that resort, just remember to still click the date on the calendar, because it may show different results.


----------



## bnoble

> There needs to be a push back on Wyndham to correct this.


What mechanism do you propose to accomplish this?


----------



## cyseitz

Well, anybody have a 2 br. deluxe they don't need and plan to cancel at BCR on 12/28.  I need one so bad!


----------



## am1

cyseitz said:


> Well, anybody have a 2 br. deluxe they don't need and plan to cancel at BCR on 12/28.  I need one so bad!



My guess you are not going to see one of these become available.


----------



## cyseitz

am1 said:


> My guess you are not going to see one of these become available.


I hope not!


----------



## Bigrob

cyseitz said:


> Well, anybody have a 2 br. deluxe they don't need and plan to cancel at BCR on 12/28.  I need one so bad!



It's too late to cancel and get points back, so I agree with the other poster, that one is probably not coming back.


----------



## cyseitz

Well, 2 bedrooms have been popping up in the days right before it, so I am really hoping that one will come up on the night I need.


----------



## jebloomquist

ronparise said:


> Sandi
> That isnt to say no one has figured out a computer program to do the searching automatically, I think they have. Its just that with 500000 owners and only one Christmas week at Bonnet Creek, I think we lose some reservations to regular folks with fast fingers.
> 
> I know that there are major points management companies that dont have a computer program, but they do pay employees to click and click all day



I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units. To say the least, I was amazed at the response that I received from Owner Care.

"We know that there are complaints about the possibility that there is a program running. But, we have an IT team that is looking into the problem, and they don't want your ideas." 

I asked if I could talk to someone doing IT. I was told "No." Wyndham outsources this and none of the 900,000 owners can talk to them. So, I asked if I could give my ideas to Owner Care and have them passed on to the IT group. "No. The IT group knows what it is doing." I said that the outsource IT group must get its basic instructions on what to do from someone in Wyndham. Could I talk with anyone in Wyndham doing that? "No."

Regardless of what I said or asked, the response was "No."

I can think of a very simple thing that could be done with the web site to make it much more difficult to automate the search. Wyndham doesn't even want to hear it.

This leads me to some simple questions, "Does Wyndham have its own program running, and therefore doesn't want anything to make it more difficult to grab cancellations.?" "Why would Owner Care be so hostile concerning my ideas?" "Why would Wyndham not want to solve this potential problem?"

My experience leads me to believe that something has fundamentally changed over that last few months in the reservation system. I have lost more reservations in the last two months than I had lost in the previous two years.

Maybe someone will have to hack into the system, just to find out what is going on.

I am very disappointed in Wyndham's response to my inquiry.

Jim


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> Bonus points come from unsold wyndham inventory.  Wyndham is by far the largest point owner.
> 
> There needs to be a push back on Wyndham to correct this.





jebloomquist said:


> I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units.



When VIP owners cancel and rebook for a 50% discount, the points to pay the other 50% come from unsold Wyndham inventory.

It is ironic when those who cheat the system for their personal benefit object to those who are better at cheating the system for _their _personal benefit.

A waitlist, such as in the WorldMark system where a Wyndham computer is continuously searching for a match, would go a long way to ending all this nonsense. It works well for WorldMark owners and they love it.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> When VIP owners cancel and rebook for a 50% discount, the points to pay the other 50% come from unsold Wyndham inventory.
> 
> It is ironic when those who cheat the system for their personal benefit object to those who are better at cheating the system for _their _personal benefit.
> 
> A waitlist, such as in the WorldMark system where a Wyndham computer is continuously searching for a match, would go a long way to ending all this nonsense. It works well for WorldMark owners and they love it.



Fred - Not exactly sure how this is cheating the system.  The entity most impacted here (Wyndham) - is the one that is running around selling owners the VIP memberships and promoting this strategy as a benefit of VIP.

And cheating typically involves breaking a rule. This strategy is no more cheating the system then is using a grouped reservation to get a high demand resort in the Worldmark system.


----------



## vacationhopeful

jebloomquist said:


> I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units. To say the least, I was amazed at the response that I received from Owner Care.
> 
> "We know that there are complaints about the possibility that there is a program running. But, we have an IT team that is looking into the problem, and they don't want your ideas."
> 
> I asked if I could talk to someone doing IT. I was told "No." Wyndham outsources this and none of the 900,000 owners can talk to them. So, I asked if I could give my ideas to Owner Care and have them passed on to the IT group. "No. The IT group knows what it is doing." I said that the outsource IT group must get its basic instructions on what to do from someone in Wyndham. Could I talk with anyone in Wyndham doing that? "No."
> 
> Regardless of what I said or asked, the response was "No."
> 
> I can think of a very simple thing that could be done with the web site to make it much more difficult to automate the search. Wyndham doesn't even want to hear it.
> 
> This leads me to some simple questions, "Does Wyndham have its own program running, and therefore doesn't want anything to make it more difficult to grab cancellations.?" "Why would Owner Care be so hostile concerning my ideas?" "Why would Wyndham not want to solve this potential problem?"
> 
> My experience leads me to believe that something has fundamentally changed over that last few months in the reservation system. I have lost more reservations in the last two months than I had lost in the previous two years.
> 
> Maybe someone will have to hack into the system, just to find out what is going on.
> 
> I am very disappointed in Wyndham's response to my inquiry.
> 
> Jim



Jim,
To paraphrase a Tom Hank's quote from Apollo 13 "(Wyndham) we have a problem" is pretty evident from your interchange. And for a call center employee to be this short and non-chatty, tells me also - THERE have been too many complaints by other owners. The call center staff has a prepared and defined script.

And I can only image where the software support(or developing team) is located. And this most likely won't get solved for a good long time - IMHO.

ADDED: Regular TUG posters who are VIP Wyndham owners might count under 100 individual owners. Might be many less than that out of the 900,000+ Wyndham points owners. There could 1,000+ VIP owners complaining to the call center about "lost" reservations - the Mom & Pop's who were SOLD more and more points to get first these discounts and then, upgrading a unit size or more. I know I have heard the spiel from the sales staff (almost never with a caveat); I have heard other owners telling me, with glee, how many extra vacations they go on, due to the discounts & upgrades; bragging at the Tiki Bar how they NEVER lose a reservations ...  Come on - if us TUG regulars know we are losing a much higher percentage ... and we understand the percentages and the RISKS before hitting the "cancel" button.

SO back to basics, DON'T DO IT if you NEED that reservation. Being homeless is NOT A GOOD PLAN .... IMHO.


----------



## DeeDibble

There is no doubt that the Vacation Counselors are hearing complaints from owners.   I have been on the phone with them several times and have expressed my opinion about what I have been experiencing.  Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount.  I also tell them that in every single meeting for the last 20 years the sales team ALWAYS talk about the advantage of being a GOLD/PLATINUM owner.   I usually tell them that the problem is also caused by SALES giving Bonus Points to be used within the next 12 months so that owners can " try" the GOLD or PLATINUM Status.   (Last winter while in Florida there were countless conversations among owners about getting extra points for the next year). Wyndham's sales strategy is a disservice to the owners. May I say that again:  WYNDHAM SALES TEAM IS A DISSERVICE TO THE OWNERS!....  I had a conversation with one of the vacation counselors yesterday who told me for the last few weeks there has always been 40 calls in the que( members on hold). Another vc told me that there has been hundreds of owners that still have anniversary dates March to March and these people have been trying to use their points before they expire.   The other part of the problem is they are selling WYNDHAM Access of which enables booking 13 months in advance.......hence:   More demand in areas then there are rooms, condos......I also asked one of them " can Extra Holidays " grab" cancellations?"  He said that the only way Extra Holidays can get points is only when a member contacts Extra Holidays can EH get them.......we still have the simple fact that I believe Ronraprise has stated:  that every contract there is language that states that Wyndham has the authority at its sole discretion to take unused inventory for the purposes of renting....  Yes, Linda, we have a problem!  As an individual owner that has purchased points with Wyndham for the sole purpose of " quiet enjoyment" with my family and friends I feel as if we are being " squeezed out" by " big business" . I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either but there is no doubt that some computer system is breaching the system and snatching units.    With all this said:  you better believe that Wyndham will be hearing about it.   I really think ALL OF US should write a letter to the CEO ( is it Hans?)  





vacationhopeful said:


> Jim,
> To paraphrase a Tom Hank's quote from Apollo 13 "(Wyndham) we have a problem" is pretty evident from your interchange. And for a call center employee to be this short and non-chatty, tells me also - THERE have been too many complaints by other owners. The call center staff has a prepared and defined script.
> 
> And I can only image where the software support(or developing team) is located. And this most likely won't get solved for a good long time - IMHO.
> 
> ADDED: Regular TUG posters who are VIP Wyndham owners might count under 100 individual owners. Might be many less than that out of the 900,000+ Wyndham points owners. There could 1,000+ VIP owners complaining to the call center about "lost" reservations - the Mom & Pop's who were SOLD more and more points to get first these discounts and then, upgrading a unit size or more. I know I have heard the spiel from the sales staff (almost never with a caveat); I have heard other owners telling me, with glee, how many extra vacations they go on, due to the discounts & upgrades; bragging at the Tiki Bar how they NEVER lose a reservations ...  Come on - if us TUG regulars know we are losing a much higher percentage ... and we understand the percentages and the RISKS before hitting the "cancel" button.
> 
> SO back to basics, DON'T DO IT if you NEED that reservation. Being homeless is NOT A GOOD PLAN .... IMHO.


----------



## DeeDibble

I wouldn't stop pursuing this if I was you.   I tend to believe it's not Wyndham with an automated system only because all the contracts say they can grab any unused inventory at 60 days.  





jebloomquist said:


> I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units. To say the least, I was amazed at the response that I received from Owner Care.
> 
> "We know that there are complaints about the possibility that there is a program running. But, we have an IT team that is looking into the problem, and they don't want your ideas."
> 
> I asked if I could talk to someone doing IT. I was told "No." Wyndham outsources this and none of the 900,000 owners can talk to them. So, I asked if I could give my ideas to Owner Care and have them passed on to the IT group. "No. The IT group knows what it is doing." I said that the outsource IT group must get its basic instructions on what to do from someone in Wyndham. Could I talk with anyone in Wyndham doing that? "No."
> 
> Regardless of what I said or asked, the response was "No."
> 
> I can think of a very simple thing that could be done with the web site to make it much more difficult to automate the search. Wyndham doesn't even want to hear it.
> 
> This leads me to some simple questions, "Does Wyndham have its own program running, and therefore doesn't want anything to make it more difficult to grab cancellations.?" "Why would Owner Care be so hostile concerning my ideas?" "Why would Wyndham not want to solve this potential problem?"
> 
> My experience leads me to believe that something has fundamentally changed over that last few months in the reservation system. I have lost more reservations in the last two months than I had lost in the previous two years.
> 
> Maybe someone will have to hack into the system, just to find out what is going on.
> 
> I am very disappointed in Wyndham's response to my inquiry.
> 
> Jim


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> Fred - Not exactly sure how this is cheating the system.  The entity most impacted here (Wyndham) - is the one that is running around selling owners the VIP memberships and promoting this strategy as a benefit of VIP.
> 
> And cheating typically involves breaking a rule. This strategy is no more cheating the system then is using a grouped reservation to get a high demand resort in the Worldmark system.



Sorry, not Fred.

Let's not be obtuse.  Those who cancel and re-book for premium reservations, some of which are made 13 months in advance, know they are playing a loophole.

If we want to invoke rules, when a cancel/rebook attempt fails, all the points for the reservation are returned as cancelled points according to the rules.   There is no cause for complaint.

The mechanism responsible for the failed attempt -- Extra Holidays, broken water mains, overbooking, rogue computer programs -- does not matter. No one forced the owner to cancel.

Cancel/rebook is a gamble.  The sales weasels don't go so far as to offer guarantees, but they do present only the upside, as any good salesperson would.  It seems the risks are starting, somewhat, to reflect the potential reward.  It makes the gamble that much more exciting.  Skip Vegas, take the money saved and buy a Wyndham platinum account.


----------



## jebloomquist

CO skier said:


> The mechanism responsible for the failed attempt -- Extra Holidays, broken water mains, overbooking, rogue computer programs -- does not matter. No one forced the owner to cancel.
> 
> Cancel/rebook is a gamble.



Yes the cancel/rebook is a gamble. 

But, if some or many are running programs to grab them, not only is the cancel/rebooker at a disadvantage, the ordinary owner who once in a while catches a break, will no longer be a winner. It is everyone who is out looking for that resort for that time frame who will be the loser, not just the cancel/rebooker.

Jim


----------



## ronparise

ada903 said:


> Thank you Sandi!  I did just that with safari multiple tabs and lost a president week one bedroom and I can't believe a human could have gotten it so fast. I saw it coming back but it's as if something was holding it and took it from me.  That's ok... Ron was that you? Lol



not me 

Are you implying I am not a human??


----------



## Bigrob

jebloomquist said:


> I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units. To say the least, I was amazed at the response that I received from Owner Care.
> 
> "We know that there are complaints about the possibility that there is a program running. But, we have an IT team that is looking into the problem, and they don't want your ideas."
> 
> I asked if I could talk to someone doing IT. I was told "No." Wyndham outsources this and none of the 900,000 owners can talk to them. So, I asked if I could give my ideas to Owner Care and have them passed on to the IT group. "No. The IT group knows what it is doing." I said that the outsource IT group must get its basic instructions on what to do from someone in Wyndham. Could I talk with anyone in Wyndham doing that? "No."
> 
> Regardless of what I said or asked, the response was "No."
> 
> I can think of a very simple thing that could be done with the web site to make it much more difficult to automate the search. Wyndham doesn't even want to hear it.
> 
> This leads me to some simple questions, "Does Wyndham have its own program running, and therefore doesn't want anything to make it more difficult to grab cancellations.?" "Why would Owner Care be so hostile concerning my ideas?" "Why would Wyndham not want to solve this potential problem?"
> 
> My experience leads me to believe that something has fundamentally changed over that last few months in the reservation system. I have lost more reservations in the last two months than I had lost in the previous two years.
> 
> Maybe someone will have to hack into the system, just to find out what is going on.
> 
> I am very disappointed in Wyndham's response to my inquiry.
> 
> Jim



This response does not surprise me in the least. But I'm not sure I'd jump to the same conclusions as to why they aren't accepting ideas for IT improvements from the Owner Care line. I've similarly offered ideas for streamlining their obviously broken document intake process in Title Services and was met with the same type of response. My guess is that it just isn't within the scope of things Owner Care can respond to. Nonetheless, the specific representative within Owner Care you speak to makes a huge difference. I have had 2 who were absolutely amazing, going above and beyond to get things done and crossing over organizational lines to make things happen. And I've had others who, although pleasant, were annoyingly unhelpful. For the exact same situation. 

You could play dial a rep to see if you get a different response from a different rep. But I'm guessing even the good ones are going to throw their hands up based on the fact they have no influence or input on IT.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> When VIP owners cancel and rebook for a 50% discount, the points to pay the other 50% come from unsold Wyndham inventory.
> 
> It is ironic when those who cheat the system for their personal benefit object to those who are better at cheating the system for _their _personal benefit.
> 
> A waitlist, such as in the WorldMark system where a Wyndham computer is continuously searching for a match, would go a long way to ending all this nonsense. It works well for WorldMark owners and they love it.



Actually, only one of the parties you mention is actually _cheating_ the system. The regular VIP owner using cancel/rebook is working _within_ the system to maximize the value of their ownership. This particular aspect of working within the system to maximize the value of a VIP ownership has been part of the selling message at Fairfield/Wyndham for well over a decade. 

Certainly there are differences between the Wyndham and Worldmark reservation systems. The fact is, working within the system to get the most out of the ownership isn't "cheating" the system, it's understanding it and making the most of it. And while the mechanisms for "maximizing" the value of Worldmark ownership are different, they do exist in that system as well.

Is it possible that there are unintended "opportunities" within each system? Certainly. But knowing and using these opportunities isn't cheating. That's like saying smart tax planning and working within the tax code to minimize your tax obligation is "cheating on your taxes". There is certainly a difference between using the system based on one's knowledge, and deliberately developing APIs to hack a security vulnerability of a website.


----------



## ronparise

DeeDibble said:


> There is no doubt that the Vacation Counselors are hearing complaints from owners.   I have been on the phone with them several times and have expressed my opinion about what I have been experiencing.  Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount.  I also tell them that in every single meeting for the last 20 years the sales team ALWAYS talk about the advantage of being a GOLD/PLATINUM owner.   I usually tell them that the problem is also caused by SALES giving Bonus Points to be used within the next 12 months so that owners can " try" the GOLD or PLATINUM Status.   (Last winter while in Florida there were countless conversations among owners about getting extra points for the next year). Wyndham's sales strategy is a disservice to the owners. May I say that again:  WYNDHAM SALES TEAM IS A DISSERVICE TO THE OWNERS!....  I had a conversation with one of the vacation counselors yesterday who told me for the last few weeks there has always been 40 calls in the que( members on hold). Another vc told me that there has been hundreds of owners that still have anniversary dates March to March and these people have been trying to use their points before they expire.   The other part of the problem is they are selling WYNDHAM Access of which enables booking 13 months in advance.......hence:   More demand in areas then there are rooms, condos......I also asked one of them " can Extra Holidays " grab" cancellations?"  He said that the only way Extra Holidays can get points is only when a member contacts Extra Holidays can EH get them.......we still have the simple fact that I believe Ronraprise has stated:  that every contract there is language that states that Wyndham has the authority at its sole discretion to take unused inventory for the purposes of renting....  Yes, Linda, we have a problem!  As an individual owner that has purchased points with Wyndham for the sole purpose of " quiet enjoyment" with my family and friends I feel as if we are being " squeezed out" by " big business" . I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either but there is no doubt that some computer system is breaching the system and snatching units.    With all this said:  you better believe that Wyndham will be hearing about it.   I really think ALL OF US should write a letter to the CEO ( is it Hans?)



DEE

I dont understand your complaint. The discounts within 60 days are meant to get vacancies into  reservations.   When I cancel and rebook I am doing it to get a discount on something I have already reserved. 
If Wyndham institutes a wait list, or somehow stops us from playing the cancel and rebook game, those reservations wont be cancelled at all, and  they will never come available in the 60 day window.

If you are vip and your complaint is that you are losing reservations playing cancel and rebook, then you have nothing to complain about either. Its just that someone else is playing it better than you.


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> If you are vip and your complaint is that you are losing reservations playing cancel and rebook, then you have nothing to complain about either. Its just that someone else is playing it better than you.



Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?


----------



## bogey21

DeeDibble said:


> Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount.



Join the crowd.  The big boys always retain the right to change anything they darn well please when it suits them.  Period, end of story!

George


----------



## Bigrob

DeeDibble said:


> There is no doubt that the Vacation Counselors are hearing complaints from owners.   I have been on the phone with them several times and have expressed my opinion about what I have been experiencing.  Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount.  I also tell them that in every single meeting for the last 20 years the sales team ALWAYS talk about the advantage of being a GOLD/PLATINUM owner.   I usually tell them that the problem is also caused by SALES giving Bonus Points to be used within the next 12 months so that owners can " try" the GOLD or PLATINUM Status.   (Last winter while in Florida there were countless conversations among owners about getting extra points for the next year). Wyndham's sales strategy is a disservice to the owners. May I say that again:  WYNDHAM SALES TEAM IS A DISSERVICE TO THE OWNERS!....  I had a conversation with one of the vacation counselors yesterday who told me for the last few weeks there has always been 40 calls in the que( members on hold). Another vc told me that there has been hundreds of owners that still have anniversary dates March to March and these people have been trying to use their points before they expire.   The other part of the problem is they are selling WYNDHAM Access of which enables booking 13 months in advance.......hence:   More demand in areas then there are rooms, condos......I also asked one of them " can Extra Holidays " grab" cancellations?"  He said that the only way Extra Holidays can get points is only when a member contacts Extra Holidays can EH get them.......we still have the simple fact that I believe Ronraprise has stated:  that every contract there is language that states that Wyndham has the authority at its sole discretion to take unused inventory for the purposes of renting....  Yes, Linda, we have a problem!  As an individual owner that has purchased points with Wyndham for the sole purpose of " quiet enjoyment" with my family and friends I feel as if we are being " squeezed out" by " big business" . I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either but there is no doubt that some computer system is breaching the system and snatching units.    With all this said:  you better believe that Wyndham will be hearing about it.   I really think ALL OF US should write a letter to the CEO ( is it Hans?)



I think the one you want is Franz. 

As President and Chief Executive Officer, Wyndham Vacation Ownership at WYNDHAM WORLDWIDE CORP, Franz S. Hanning made $4,606,429 in total compensation. Of this total $710,027 was received as a salary, $1,194,000 was received as a bonus, $0 was received in stock options, $2,500,000 was awarded as stock and $202,402 came from other types of compensation. This information is according to proxy statements filed for the 2013 fiscal year.

When a VC tells you that an "owner" has to deposit into EH to rent time, that might lead you to believe private parties may have uncovered a way to systematically grab reservations. However another theory is that Wyndham, as the largest points owner in the system (via unsold inventory), has gotten better at grabbing those reservations to deposit. So it is entirely possible that attractive reservations may quickly be booked and deposited by the largest owner of WVO points. Perhaps it is possible that there have been recent "changes" that have allowed reservations to get picked up faster by this owner who also has inside knowledge of the inventory system and alternate interface channels? 

If that is what's happening - and I'm not saying it is - I can't see that anyone has any standing for a legal complaint, since there is language in the trust docs allowing most of the inventory to be grabbed in such a manner. I believe it's up to 90% but I don't have any of the docs in front of me to confirm. Even if this owner grabbed every reservation that came open during a high demand period, they would not get close to 90% due to all the other folks with reservations that were booked and never cancelled during that same period.

Good luck getting Wyndham to "fix" that problem if that's what's causing it.


----------



## ecwinch

It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).

And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure.  So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.


----------



## am1

ecwinch said:


> It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).



Not the case here although more people are searching overall.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).
> 
> And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure.  So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.



And upgrades are not currently using captcha. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or several someones had automated looking for upgrades.


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> And upgrades are not currently using captcha. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or several someones had automated looking for upgrades.



Great point.  Far easier to build and would create the same behavior.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?




I did 10  the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms.  I only lost 2  so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them. 

Whether some are using a computer or not makes no difference to me. and I dont think it makes any difference to Wyndham.  We are all gaming the system. When Wyndham closes the loophole, it will be closed for all of us.


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> I did 10  the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms.  I only lost 2  so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.
> 
> Whether some are using a computer or not makes no difference to me. and I dont think it makes any difference to Wyndham.  We are all gaming the system. When Wyndham closes the loophole, it will be closed for all of us.



If you just lost two it was inventory control or another owner beat you to the reservation.  Big difference then losing them all to a computer.


----------



## Beefnot

ronparise said:


> I did 10 the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms. I only lost 2 so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.


 
That gave me a hearty laugh.


----------



## cyseitz

am1 said:


> If you just lost two it was inventory control or another owner beat you to the reservation.  Big difference then losing them all to a computer.



I do lose them from time to time, but not that often.


----------



## CO skier

DeeDibble said:


> So the question is: "do we dare do it again?"





ronparise said:


> I did 10  the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms.  I only lost 2  so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.



Why not outsource it?

Ron Parise seems to have the hot hand, and he seems trustworthy enough, so why not send him a PM to inquire and negotiate a rate for him to use your account to cancel and rebook for you.

If he can't do it, nobody can.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Why not outsource it?
> 
> Ron Parise seems to have the hot hand, and he seems trustworthy enough, so why not send him a PM to inquire and negotiate a rate for him to use your account to cancel and rebook for you.
> 
> If he can't do it, nobody can.



Its not me.. I was just  that last year I made more reservations than I needed, knowing that I was going to end up losing a few.  I was going to play until I lost 2 in a row, or 4 over all. 

I was just lucky that no one else was playing at the same resort at the same time.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Its not me.. I was just  that last year I made more reservations than I needed, knowing that I was going to end up losing a few.



So after all this the OP is really just back to post #2?


----------



## DeeDibble

And that is why I am COMPLAINING!!!!!!!   Thank you for seeing what I am seeing


am1 said:


> Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?


----------



## DeeDibble

ecwinch said:


> It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).
> 
> And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure.  So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.



I believe that it's a matter of " more people playing the game more frequently on a greater scale".  Again, as mentioned before:  it's much more difficult to "roll the dice" this year because everyone wants to be in south Florida this winter and some of those folks are armed with one of 2 things:  Wyndham Access and or Bonus Points usable in 2015!


----------



## Xcalibur

I'm happy as long as:

1. They keep bots and other computer programs out of the system.  More capcha stuff would be good
2. Wyndham is not taking inventory arbitrarily 

Makes it a level playing field.  

If ever it was leaked that Wyndham was taking inventory,  that would be a huge PR and legal issue.


----------



## am1

Xcalibur said:


> If ever it was leaked that Wyndham was taking inventory,  that would be a huge PR and legal issue.



Would it really matter to the bottom line?  Except their lost profit from doing it of course?


----------



## vacationhopeful

DeeDibble said:


> I believe that it's a matter of " more people playing the game more frequently on a greater scale".  Again, as mentioned before:  it's much more difficult to "roll the dice" *this year because everyone wants to be in south Florida this winter and *some of those folks are armed with one of 2 things:  Wyndham Access and or Bonus Points usable in 2015!



MY bold section of your statement - this is NOTHING NEW!

I own many Snowbird F/W at the Wyndham resorts in South Florida ... they still exist. And I ain't selling those jems. Back in yester-year ... when you could NOT see or book the cancelled inventory in real time -- it re-loaded into the system at 8AM the next day ... you needed a baseball bat to get to a computer in the resort's computer room (in unit WIFI also did NOT exist).

I brought these starting 8+ years ago - as I realized I would not have the $$$ to buy a close to the beach Snowbird condo (swampland condo, yes; not beachy condo $$$). I figured out the system, resale and ARP ... but F/Ws were the "game" - the back door option. 

I own enough F/W to camp in Pompano & Ft Lauderdale from Christmas Day to Easter times 2. Okay, I got picky as to resorts & views - but also to afford those MFs by renting my excess weeks. I just WISH the economy would cooperate in my DAY JOB ... so I could be in Florida all winter long.

But this most likely can not be repeated by a newbie today to the extend of my ownership --- CWA has gobbled up most Pompano winter fixed weeks. Trades in & foreclosures with the HOAs selling those jems back to Wyndham for $1 a deed. 

So ... I don't do many save a few points (cancel and rebook) operations on my points reservations (yes, I have ARP points to those South Florida resorts and RARP windows, too) ... I figure they will rent for FULL POINT value - and they do. 

It has ALWAYS been a HAPPY CAMPER dance when you can score a LAST MINUTE BOOKING with a discount into SOUTH FLORIDA in the winter .... and I never figure on a unit size upgrade --- NEVER!

PS MANY, many people stay all winter in Orlando area resorts while others stay in Myrtle Beach resorts --- still warmer than home plus oceanviews exist along with indoor pools. And Orlando is way warmer than Buffalo.:ignore:


----------



## vacationhopeful

Xcalibur said:


> I'm happy as long as:
> 
> 1. They keep bots and other computer programs out of the system.  More capcha stuff would be good
> 2. Wyndham is not taking inventory arbitrarily
> 
> Makes it a level playing field.
> 
> If ever it was leaked that Wyndham was taking inventory,  that would be a huge PR and legal issue.



Wyndham can and does legally take inventory within the 60 day from checkin mark .... up to 90% of the returned (cancelled) inventory. There is NO promise that us owners should always be able to "save points" by re-booking reservations inside the 60 day from checkin. This option and sales hook was to encourage owners to USE their points for LAST MINUTE vacations thru out the year. Unplanned getaways - instead of the owners dumping points into RCI and whining they can't go to Orlando on Christmas break when they decide after Thanksgiving to do so. I can book Orlando at 10 months out from Xmas - that is called planning and is a MUST with timeshare usage.

And should Wyndham pick & choose inventory to book at the last minute? Their goal is to receive value for booked inventory & find new sales lead for their selling group. Booking all the empty units in Williamsburg does NOT do any good for their sales staff if they can't rent them or get prospects to the sales room ... Wyndham is NOT in the "provide the homeless with a vacation" - they are selling an expensive luxury product and have a product image. And if you were new to timesharing & sitting in Chicago or Boston .. looking at getting WARM this winter ... you would be a PRIME recruit for a 3 or 4 night discounted stay at Royal Vista or Santa Barbara or Palm Aire to BUY the Wyndham vacation product.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> Actually, only one of the parties you mention is actually _cheating_ the system. The regular VIP owner using cancel/rebook is working _within_ the system to maximize the value of their ownership. This particular aspect of working within the system to maximize the value of a VIP ownership has been part of the selling message at Fairfield/Wyndham for well over a decade.
> ...



Or here is another way of looking at it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

“The Sopranos box set was maybe $88,” Hedrick told The Daily Beast. “They take a .88 cent sticker off reject videos and put it on The Sopranos and two others and then go to the cashier lane.

“Even the cashier realizes that they were trying to get away with $300 worth of box sets for $3.”


Telling the police, "I know someone who has been doing this and showing others for years" would not prove to be much of a defense.




While cancel/rebook is not exactly the same situation, what about the parallels?  The cancel/rebookers are not making a reservation from reject inventory available within 60 days.  They are "returning" (cancelling) premium reservations made up to 13 months in advance that regular owners would have to pay full price.  They then want to slap a $500 sticker on that $1000 premium reservation, pay the $500 dollars to purchase what they just returned, receive the $500 refund and get out of the store before anyone is the wiser.


----------



## am1

The walmart associate never suggested doing this and there was no $200 000 buy in.



CO skier said:


> Or here is another way of looking at it.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews
> 
> “The Sopranos box set was maybe $88,” Hedrick told The Daily Beast. “They take a .88 cent sticker off reject videos and put it on The Sopranos and two others and then go to the cashier lane.
> 
> “Even the cashier realizes that they were trying to get away with $300 worth of box sets for $3.”
> 
> 
> Telling the police, "I know someone who has been doing this and showing others for years" would not prove to be much of a defense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While cancel/rebook is not exactly the same situation, what about the parallels?  The cancel/rebookers are not making a reservation from reject inventory available within 60 days.  They are "returning" (cancelling) premium reservations made up to 13 months in advance that regular owners would have to pay full price.  They then want to slap a $500 sticker on that $1000 premium reservation, pay the $500 dollars to purchase what they just returned, receive the $500 refund and get out of the store before anyone is the wiser.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Or here is another way of looking at it.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews
> 
> “The Sopranos box set was maybe $88,” Hedrick told The Daily Beast. “They take a .88 cent sticker off reject videos and put it on The Sopranos and two others and then go to the cashier lane.
> 
> “Even the cashier realizes that they were trying to get away with $300 worth of box sets for $3.”
> 
> 
> Telling the police, "I know someone who has been doing this and showing others for years" would not prove to be much of a defense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While cancel/rebook is not exactly the same situation, what about the parallels?  The cancel/rebookers are not making a reservation from reject inventory available within 60 days.  They are "returning" (cancelling) premium reservations made up to 13 months in advance that regular owners would have to pay full price.  They then want to slap a $500 sticker on that $1000 premium reservation, pay the $500 dollars to purchase what they just returned, receive the $500 refund and get out of the store before anyone is the wiser.



Well there is a slight difference. One is a case of perpetrating fraud and committing an illegal act to defraud the retailer; the other is working within the system to make the most of their ownership... and in fact owners have by and large been told that this was an included benefit only offered to them for buying directly from Wyndham and obtaining their VIP status.

One could actually take the opposite position and say NOT leveraging their VIP ownership to make the most of it would be like buying a Ferrari and never driving outside of Manhattan.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> One could actually take the opposite position and say NOT leveraging their VIP ownership to make the most of it would be like buying a Ferrari and never driving outside of Manhattan.



Officer:  "Do you know I clocked you at 180 mph?"

Driver:  "The salesman at the Ferrari dealership said I could go over 200.  I was just taking advantage of the opportunity to see if he was right."


----------



## Sandi Bo

Much of the focus/discussion of this thread has been on the cancel/rebook. It's not just about cancelling and re-booking.  It's about being able to find a last minute reservation.

Someone (or perhaps multiple people) is running a program and capturing reservations that used to be available for last minute reservations. 

Take Cynthia's need for a room Dec 28th.  I've been doing this for about 3 years now.   In past years, finding that room would never have been a problem.  But someone programmatically grabbed almost all excess inventory at Bonnet Creek this year.  In past years, there would also be some rooms at 2 - 3 weeks from check-in, if not sooner.  This year - the well is dry.

I'd bet money that same person (or persons) booked many rooms months ago, and was able (with the assistance of their program) to cancel and rebook and upgrade those rooms.  And in addition to that, grabbed any rooms anyone else was trying to cancel and rebook.  

With someone with a lot of points and program - the game has changed. 

That's hurting just about everyone here. Perhaps it's Wyndham, but I don't think so.   

If it didn't affect you, it is most likely because you are booking at other locations.  I had no problem booking rooms for family in Destin (a nice 3 BR Plus Harbor View Christmas week) or New Orleans for New Years (was able to find rooms at both La Belle Maison and Avenue Plaza - gave them their pick)).  Those rooms were obtained the good old fashion way -- watching at times I know are optimum to pick up last minute cancellations.  And no ones running programs against those locations - at this time. 

I wasn't cancelling/rebooking and I don't think I was foiling anyone else's transactions. I was watching for cancellations around the 15 day mark that people couldn't use or rent and thus were cancelling. No one got hurt by me picking up that reservation, it was excess inventory, and now family (owners) are off to a nice vacation.  

I consider Bonnet Creek to be "compromised" at this time.  Something sure is fishy at that location.  I would not expect to find anything there for prime rental periods (Christmas week, President's Week, Spring Break). Someone with lots of points and a program has claimed that territory.

I'm not saying I don't play the cancel/rebook game. But more often, I'm just looking for cancellations.  And I don't do anything a sales weasel (or two) hasn't told me I could do. On the seat of their chair, all excited to tell me various tricks in relation to the cancelling and rebooking.

Someone with a lot of points and a program has changed the game.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Officer:  "Do you know I clocked you at 180 mph?"
> 
> Driver:  "The salesman at the Ferrari dealership said I could go over 200.  I was just taking advantage of the opportunity to see if he was right."



There is a difference between being constrained to stop and go driving in Manhattan versus being able to "open it up" in more open driving conditions, and reckless driving endangering the lives of themselves and others and committing a felony in the process. In fact that might well be the difference I'm pointing up; driving the Ferrari hard in open conditions in a legal manner (VIP owners using their ownership) and driving it illegally and recklessly (hacking a website, defeating security captchas in violation of terms of use constraints). One of these is specifically allowed (even coached) by Wyndham; the other is specifically disallowed (and could result in the offenders losing online access altogether if caught). 

Does this sound like Wyndham encourages the use of automated bots?

"Why do we do this? This step is an added level of security that helps us ensure that our members (and not automated programs) are accessing the online reservations system. In addition, by limiting automated search programs from accessing the system, Website performance is improved."

I think we will just agree to disagree if you really can't see the difference.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Bigrob said:


> (hacking a website, defeating security captchas in violation of terms of use constraints). One of these is specifically allowed (even coached) by Wyndham; the other is specifically disallowed (and could result in the offenders losing online access altogether if caught).



Eric, do we know this for sure?  Is it written somewhere?   I asked a VC about scripting and programs and they were totally clueless.  (That was just one VC).  I'm not doubting you, I wish it were the case and enforced.  Just wondering if you found it on the website or somewhere?


----------



## am1

Sandi Bo said:


> Eric, do we know this for sure?  Is it written somewhere?   I asked a VC about scripting and programs and they were totally clueless.  (That was just one VC).  I'm not doubting you, I wish it were the case and enforced.  Just wondering if you found it on the website or somewhere?



I have had to type in a short code to continue about a million times so it better be against the rules.


----------



## ronparise

Sandi you are exactly right,  If someone is using a computer program to snatch up all cancellations,  Most of the time, they are taking from someone that like them is trying to game the system, and as I have said already...who cares, One player simply out played another.  If you cant afford to lose a reservation , dont play the game

But as you point out, some folks just cancel because their plans have changed and those reservations should be available to everyone. .  However, even if the bots are stopped (if they actually exist) nothing will really change.  the guys that want these reservations to rent will simply sit on the computer, (or hire several people)  and  do it manually,  Which is what I do. If someone can make money with a Bonnet Creek cancellation the guy that just wants a place at the last minute doesnt have much of a chance.

Not Wyndham but tonight. for example. I picked a Worldmark reservation for the Sugar Bowl Dec 31 and Jan 1).  Ive been pushing buttons for several hours a day, for days, and finally got one ....ka ching!


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> I have had to type in a short code to continue about a million times so it better be against the rules.



Of course its against the rules,,,No one is saying the guys using these bots (if they actually exist) are working within the rules. They arent

Im not sure I agree with Eric though, I may not be breaking the rules playing the cancel and rebook game, and I dont think Im hurting any other owner, But Im sure taking advantage of a loophole, and I expect Wyndham to close it... 

Which is why Im selling off most of what I own...Im only going to keep enough to make reservations that can be profitable without the 50% discount


----------



## Bigrob

Sandi Bo said:


> Eric, do we know this for sure?  Is it written somewhere?   I asked a VC about scripting and programs and they were totally clueless.  (That was just one VC).  I'm not doubting you, I wish it were the case and enforced.  Just wondering if you found it on the website or somewhere?



Of course. It is in the Terms Of Use (a link is at the bottom of every page of the website). Under Section 4:

If you violate any of these Terms, your permission to use this website immediately terminates without the necessity of any notice. WVO, at its sole discretion, retains the right to deny access to this website to anyone for any reason, including for violation of these Terms. Some of these types of violations are more fully described below in Section 5.

5. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES 

You are specifically prohibited from any use of this website, and you agree not to use or permit others to use this website, for any of the following:

(a) take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on, or waste of valuable time for, the website's infrastructure or resources, including, but not limited to, sending or promoting the distribution of "spam," "junk mail," chain letters, or other such unsolicited or unlawful mass emailing techniques; 
(b) disclose to, or share with, any unauthorized third parties the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords, or use the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords for any unauthorized purpose, or otherwise allow or facilitate others to gain access to WVO's information technology systems, environments, networks, files, data or accounts through the use of the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords; 
(c) access or attempt to access WVO's information technology systems, environments, networks, files, data or accounts to which express authorization has not been obtained (including access to data not intended for You), or log into a server or account that you are not authorized to access; 
(d) attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble, modify, remove or reverse engineer any of the software or HTML code comprising or in any way making up a part of this website; 
(e) interfere with, disrupt, disable or damage (or attempt to interfere with, disrupt, disable or damage), in an unauthorized manner, the use or operation of this website or WVO's, its affiliated or related entities' or the Providers' systems, equipment or applications, or service to any user, host, or network, including by use of any programs, scripts, commands, viruses, worms, web bugs, harmful code, Trojan horses, other contaminants, or otherwise. This includes "denial of service" attacks, "flooding" of networks, deliberate attempts to overload a service or to burden excessively a service's resources, attempts to "crash" a host, and/or modifying or rerouting any Content or services provided at this website; 
(f) attempt to circumvent or subvert system or network security (i.e., authentication) mechanisms, or probe the security of any system, network, or account, associated or used in conjunction with this website; 
(g) upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any Information, Content, or proprietary rights that you do not have a right to transmit under the Terms, any law or other contractual or fiduciary relationships; and/or 
(h) use any robot, spider, intelligent agent, meta-searching, other automatic device, or manual process to search, monitor or copy WVO's website pages or the Content in violation of the Terms or without WVO's prior written permission, provided that generally available third party Web browsers such as Netscape Navigator® and Microsoft Internet Explorer® may be used without such permission.


----------



## am1

If Wyndham hired me I could track the accounts involved in this very easily.  No special technology needed either.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Sandi you are exactly right,  If someone is using a computer program to snatch up all cancellations,  Most of the time, they are taking from someone that like them is trying to game the system, and as I have said already...who cares, One player simply out played another.  If you cant afford to lose a reservation , dont play the game
> 
> But as you point out, some folks just cancel because their plans have changed and those reservations should be available to everyone. .  However, even if the bots are stopped (if they actually exist) nothing will really change.  the guys that want these reservations to rent will simply sit on the computer, (or hire several people)  and  do it manually,  Which is what I do. If someone can make money with a Bonnet Creek cancellation the guy that just wants a place at the last minute doesnt have much of a chance.
> 
> Not Wyndham but tonight. for example. I picked a Worldmark reservation for the Sugar Bowl Dec 31 and Jan 1).  Ive been pushing buttons for several hours a day, for days, and finally got one ....ka ching!



Except one player is specifically going against the Terms Of Use - for which they can lose online access. I think you might feel differently if you had not been able to cancel and rebook any of your recent reservations because the bots were playing in your back yard... which is probably only a matter of time.


----------



## Beefnot

CO skier said:


> Or here is another way of looking at it.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews
> 
> “The Sopranos box set was maybe $88,” Hedrick told The Daily Beast. “They take a .88 cent sticker off reject videos and put it on The Sopranos and two others and then go to the cashier lane.
> 
> “Even the cashier realizes that they were trying to get away with $300 worth of box sets for $3.”
> 
> 
> Telling the police, "I know someone who has been doing this and showing others for years" would not prove to be much of a defense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While cancel/rebook is not exactly the same situation, what about the parallels? The cancel/rebookers are not making a reservation from reject inventory available within 60 days. They are "returning" (cancelling) premium reservations made up to 13 months in advance that regular owners would have to pay full price. They then want to slap a $500 sticker on that $1000 premium reservation, pay the $500 dollars to purchase what they just returned, receive the $500 refund and get out of the store before anyone is the wiser.



Your analogy might be more accurate if you added that the customer service reps had all been touting to their customers how replacing the true price labels with 88 cent labels was a great way to get an expensive box set for cheap. In that scenario, who committed a crime?


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Of course its against the rules,,,No one is saying the guys using these bots (if they actually exist) are working within the rules. They arent
> 
> Im not sure I agree with Eric though, I may not be breaking the rules playing the cancel and rebook game, and I dont think Im hurting any other owner, But Im sure taking advantage of a loophole, and I expect Wyndham to close it...
> 
> Which is why Im selling off most of what I own...Im only going to keep enough to make reservations that can be profitable without the 50% discount



Actually, I think we're in agreement. I never said there weren't "loopholes", just as there are loopholes in the tax code and people hire smart tax accountants to plan their investment strategies accordingly. My point has always been being smart about the way the system works is one thing; violating the Terms Of Use by hacking the website is something completely different. Those that liken the two and assert one is a "better cheater" than the other just don't get it. 

If someone or several someones are using bots that are pounding the website with queries resulting in slower performance, absurd mid-day crashes, and more frequent "scheduled maintenance outages" ... then yeah, everyone is getting affected, not just the so-called "cheaters" who are trying to cancel and rebook a reservation.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> Officer:  "Do you know I clocked you at 180 mph?"
> 
> Driver:  "The salesman at the Ferrari dealership said I could go over 200.  I was just taking advantage of the opportunity to see if he was right."



Certainly the least applicable analogy I ever heard. The Ferrari dealership did not build and does control/regulate the roads.  The Ferrari salesperson and the police are not employees of the same corporation. 

Sure wish you would spend more energy contributing to the conversation rather than just making pithy comments and inane analogies.

Because you cannot be so obtuse as to believe that Wyndham senior management is ignorant of the selling points of the product and how the VIP benefits are promoted.


----------



## ronparise

Bigrob said:


> Except one player is specifically going against the Terms Of Use - for which they can lose online access. I think you might feel differently if you had not been able to cancel and rebook any of your recent reservations because the bots were playing in your back yard... which is probably only a matter of time.



Eric. I went in knowing that I might lose a few. if i had lost another one I would have stopped.  The discount makes it a super week for me, but Im profitable on these reservations at full price,


----------



## jebloomquist

am1 said:


> If Wyndham hired me I could track the accounts involved in this very easily.  No special technology needed either.



When I talked with Owner Care I was told that the IT team that Wyndham is using is monitoring the online usage to correct this situation.

I wonder what it might do with any gathered data. Will it do overt actions or covert actions?:ignore: It could make a big splash by shutting down certain owners in hopes of deterring others, or it could behind the scenes limit the number of searches allowed or slow them considerably.:zzz:

I am sure that there are many ways that Wyndham could respond. It all depends upon what is best for sales. :hysterical:

Jim


----------



## vacationhopeful

Sandi Bo said:


> Much of the focus/discussion of this thread has been on the cancel/rebook. It's not just about cancelling and re-booking.  *It's about being able to find a last minute reservation.*
> Someone (or perhaps multiple people) is running a program and capturing reservations that used to be available for last minute reservations.
> 
> Take Cynthia's need for a room Dec 28th.  I've been doing this for about 3 years now.   In past years, finding that room would never have been a problem.  But someone programmatically grabbed almost all excess inventory at Bonnet Creek this year.  In past years, there would also be some rooms at 2 - 3 weeks from check-in, if not sooner.  This year - the well is dry.
> 
> ..... (snip)
> If it didn't affect you, it is most likely because you are booking at other locations.  I had no problem booking rooms for family in Destin (a nice 3 BR Plus Harbor View Christmas week) or New Orleans for New Years (was able to find rooms at both La Belle Maison and Avenue Plaza - gave them their pick)).  Those rooms were obtained the good old fashion way -- watching at times I know are optimum to pick up last minute cancellations.  And no ones running programs against those locations - at this time.
> 
> I wasn't cancelling/rebooking and I don't think I was foiling anyone else's transactions. I was watching for cancellations around the 15 day mark that people couldn't use or rent and thus were cancelling. No one got hurt by me picking up that reservation, it was excess inventory, and now family (owners) are off to a nice vacation.
> ... (snip)I'm not saying I don't play the cancel/rebook game. But more often, I'm just looking for cancellations.  And I don't do anything a sales weasel (or two) hasn't told me I could do. On the seat of their chair, all excited to tell me various tricks in relation to the cancelling and rebooking.
> 
> *Someone with a lot of points and a program has changed the game*.



Sandi Bo .. good post. I agree but I also want to add in a couple of comments.

1) The South Florida rental market is HOTTER this year (and I would include Bonnet Creek area, also). The *gas prices are DOWN *enough for people to take a driving vacation with the family - Orlando is the #1 family destination place.
2) *Last winter was the pits*. COLDER than several decades - I can only image HOW many people thought to save their vacation dollars and time off to head SOUTH this winter. Bookings started very early this year.
3) More *people are retiring *- these are the educated people who made it thru years of layoffs; bet they all *have decent computer skills*. And they could very well be Wyndham owners directly or inherited their parents' accounts or are managing their parents' accounts. 
4) In reading these threads for several years - *I see LESS threads *about one parent died; other can't afford ==> going to I am helping my parents or new to this timeshare thing or taking over managing this TS thing.

Things have changed on several fronts --- 
Ron - I can understand your reasons .... you have done well, but it is just got to be the same old stuff and getting harder. Everybody wants their vacation cheaper. And Wyndham wants MORE profit off the owners with MORE fees - whether it is MFs or GCs or less inventory. *CWA has MORE members who want those HIGH demand CWA units as those USERS learn the Wyndham ARP system.* Your travelling to visit relatives was really the backbone of WHY you got into the business.

I see the change with my area of ownership. Wyndham owners are (like the rest of the world) much more computer literate. I was staying at the same resorts where a few at first (and then everyone) was printing airline boarding passes has NOW gone to boarding passes on their phones. Earlier I posted about trying to rebook cancellations at 8AM; now it is every second NEW stuff can appear online. Advertising was on a small fixed fee paid websites - now stuff is on eBay and percentage of your rental lodging sites with bots driving action up on web search engines (duh, like I understand bots??) Yes, I use Paypal but have done MORE international BANK TRANSFERs this year than over the PAST 10 years total. And at the resort level, the changing of the staff appears to be happening MORE this year than past years combined: financial funny stuff, promotions, good people leaving for better jobs, and MORE new people - I had to make my own charts to keep track of who they are. And growing complex makeup of the jobs - _NO hangtag girls as the FRONT desk people are now to do THAT function._ (*will the best room assignments be made now by the computer ONLY if you are MORE likely to BUY or have brought ONLY directly from the developer???) * Scary thought, eh? Parking lot view for Tuggers?


----------



## Ron2

Bigrob said:


> Of course. It is in the Terms Of Use (a link is at the bottom of every page of the website). Under Section 4:
> 
> If you violate any of these Terms, your permission to use this website immediately terminates without the necessity of any notice. WVO, at its sole discretion, retains the right to deny access to this website to anyone for any reason, including for violation of these Terms. Some of these types of violations are more fully described below in Section 5.
> 
> 5. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
> 
> You are specifically prohibited from any use of this website, and you agree not to use or permit others to use this website, for any of the following:
> 
> (a) take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on, or waste of valuable time for, the website's infrastructure or resources, including, but not limited to, sending or promoting the distribution of "spam," "junk mail," chain letters, or other such unsolicited or unlawful mass emailing techniques;
> (b) disclose to, or share with, any unauthorized third parties the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords, or use the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords for any unauthorized purpose, or otherwise allow or facilitate others to gain access to WVO's information technology systems, environments, networks, files, data or accounts through the use of the ID's, assigned confirmation numbers and/or passwords;
> (c) access or attempt to access WVO's information technology systems, environments, networks, files, data or accounts to which express authorization has not been obtained (including access to data not intended for You), or log into a server or account that you are not authorized to access;
> (d) attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble, modify, remove or reverse engineer any of the software or HTML code comprising or in any way making up a part of this website;
> (e) interfere with, disrupt, disable or damage (or attempt to interfere with, disrupt, disable or damage), in an unauthorized manner, the use or operation of this website or WVO's, its affiliated or related entities' or the Providers' systems, equipment or applications, or service to any user, host, or network, including by use of any programs, scripts, commands, viruses, worms, web bugs, harmful code, Trojan horses, other contaminants, or otherwise. This includes "denial of service" attacks, "flooding" of networks, deliberate attempts to overload a service or to burden excessively a service's resources, attempts to "crash" a host, and/or modifying or rerouting any Content or services provided at this website;
> (f) attempt to circumvent or subvert system or network security (i.e., authentication) mechanisms, or probe the security of any system, network, or account, associated or used in conjunction with this website;
> (g) upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any Information, Content, or proprietary rights that you do not have a right to transmit under the Terms, any law or other contractual or fiduciary relationships; and/or
> (h) use any robot, spider, intelligent agent, meta-searching, other automatic device, or manual process to search, monitor or copy WVO's website pages or the Content in violation of the Terms or without WVO's prior written permission, provided that generally available third party Web browsers such as Netscape Navigator® and Microsoft Internet Explorer® may be used without such permission.



Apparently Wyndham has policy in place to restrict unauthorized computer systems and third parties that gain access to WVO technology systems and networks. However the question is, do they actually do anything to control it. I think not. If computer systems and bots that scan the Wyndham reservation system do actually exist it is more likely that one or more of the third party entities (aka – points management companies) are the ones that have them. Even if they don’t have such technology they certainly are armed with enough resources (VIP points and personnel) to significantly impact the availability of the most desired prime reservations (those in most demand by renters).  Since Wyndham policy restricts unauthorized third party access to the reservation system, I’d like to know if the points manage companies are authorized by Wyndham. I’m sure Wyndham knows that they exist and likes the fact that they continually send new potential buyers that will be more likely to attend the sales presentations. The cancel-rebook process is essential to profitability for the points management companies and as they expand, competition for prime reservations is only going to increase. If Wyndham does nothing about it, then we can assume that the third party entities are authorized by Wyndham and that they are more important to WVO than us owners who refuse to attend sales presentations and make new retail purchases.


----------



## Beefnot

In another unrelated thread, someone mentioned a browser add-on called imacro that can automate repetitive tasks. Maybe something like that is being used by some?


----------



## rickandcindy23

I don't see how anyone could have a program that can type in the random characters every few refreshes.  So if there is someone who made a program, they are smarter than Wyndham.  Maybe Wyndham knows and will do something about it.  

I have a friend who hangs out a lot at Shearwater and plays tennis regularly with one of the salespeople for Wyndham.  This guy actually converted dozens of weeks to get Platinum level a few times over, and with the blessing of Wyndham corporate (more power to him).  Anyway, Wyndham is supposedly going to institute the same kind of thing WorldMark has: a waitlist process.  So there will be no inventory at prime locations when others are able to get it too.  It makes sense.  Disney has it, and WorldMark has it, so why not Wyndham?


----------



## am1

rickandcindy23 said:


> So there will be no inventory at prime locations when others are able to get it too.  It makes sense.  Disney has it, and WorldMark has it, so why not Wyndham?



It would hurt vip owners and more importantly vip sales.  

Maybe an fee to go along with the waitlist would smooth it over with corporate.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> It would hurt vip owners and more importantly vip sales.
> 
> Maybe an fee to go along with the waitlist would smooth it over with corporate.



Not a chance. Wyndham hates imposing additional fees on us. 

:hysterical:

There are many ways that Wyndham could address (hurt) VIP owners that rent to offset their maintenance fees. Ultimately, there may be a concern that hurting mega-owners would cripple the resale market, lead to a marked increase in defaults/non-payment of MFs, etc. It is an interesting dynamic; these owners bring lots of people in to Wyndham, many of whom may attend a presentation. But Corporate also wants to protect the smaller owner and their rights to book and enjoy vacations. And having an excess of points in the system makes for an interesting accounting dilemma, I would think... does WVO have to recognize all the outstanding points as some form of liability? 

What happens, for example, if an audit revealed that there were double the number of points currently floating around than the current inventory could support in 2015? (i.e., at full price booking, there are 2 years worth of points to cover all current Wyndham inventory)? And what if that gap is continuing to grow every year?


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> What happens, for example, if an audit revealed that there were double the number of points currently floating around than the current inventory could support in 2015? (i.e., at full price booking, there are 2 years worth of points to cover all current Wyndham inventory)? And what if that gap is continuing to grow every year?



Wyndham has enough unsold inventory
Lots of owners do not use their points
Certain resorts have lots of unused inventory that could have been booked but sat empty

My guest if VIPs are booking higher quality inventory.


----------



## ecwinch

jebloomquist said:


> When I talked with Owner Care I was told that the IT team that Wyndham is using is monitoring the online usage to correct this situation.
> 
> I wonder what it might do with any gathered data. Will it do overt actions or covert actions?:ignore: It could make a big splash by shutting down certain owners in hopes of deterring others, or it could behind the scenes limit the number of searches allowed or slow them considerably.:zzz:
> 
> I am sure that there are many ways that Wyndham could respond. It all depends upon what is best for sales. :hysterical:
> 
> Jim



Since the bot would just duplicate the manual steps that everyone is using, not really sure how they could effectively monitor on-line behavior to detect this. 

Because a bot running in the browser and that is just twice as fast as a human would have a huge impact on the failure rate of cancel/rebook. Especially when combined with the duration the bot could run and/or using multiple bots in combination with multiple accts. Something that would naturally evolve as more people play the rental game, and those people build larger businesses. Especially when they know that high-value reservations will be cancelled at a certain point by those who are holding them.

This is similar to the "Tragedy of the Commons".  Smaller less efficient competitors are displaced by larger more efficient competitors which accelerate the rate the common resource is depleted.


----------



## comicbookman

It appears that most people in this thread have no idea how a bot works.  First the requirement that random letter combinations be type periodically is a problem.  Second if that is overcome, in order or work efficiently the bot would require a very Reliable high speed connection.  Third the Wyndham website would have to be at its most responsive.  Finally, even simple monitoring by Wyndham would be able to notice suspect behavior.  While it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely that a bot is being used.  Ron 's approach of throwing people at the problem is more efficient, and more likely to succeed.  As far as to many points floating around, since points are ultimately tied to a deed (even cwa has deeds held by the club),  having to many points would amount to real estate fraud.  I am sure Wyndham makes up the extras vip owners and bonus owners get out of unsold inventory, probably as suggested from undesirable weeks.


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## ecwinch

it is the greatest art of the devil to convince us he does not exist...

I am not suggesting that Comicbookman is the devil or is using a bot. But if someone had built a bot, they certainly would want to convince everyone else that to do so is impossible.

And as BigRob/Eric pointed out, the upgrade screen is not protected by a captcha.  Thats a simple by-pass and not the only way to skin the cat.


----------



## vacationhopeful

I don't know comicbookman ... but 2 million plus points does NOT make a game player. But 10 or 50 or 100 times his 2 million points WOULD be a game changer.

As for a TEAM of players working together .... on multiple resorts (even 5 resorts) ... hours on end ... here in the USA ... also, IMHO, unlikely ... drone like behavior is NOT the average USA $8-10/hour worker.

My thoughts are still it is a computer program using just a limited type set of the fonts for the captcha function.


----------



## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> I don't know comicbookman ... but 2 million plus points does NOT make a game player. But 10 or 50 or 100 times his 2 million points WOULD be a game changer.
> 
> As for a TEAM of players working together .... on multiple resorts (even 5 resorts) ... hours on end ... here in the USA ... also, IMHO, unlikely ... drone like behavior is NOT the average USA $8-10/hour worker.
> 
> My thoughts are still it is a computer program using just a limited type set of the fonts for the captcha function.



Exactly right, 2 million points is not a player...Im no player either at least when it comes to computers, But I do know how, in theory,  to beat the captcha function...Now all I have to do is hire my software engineer son-in-law, to code it for me.


----------



## ecwinch

I agree with above. But that is part of the point. For a larger player, you have enough incentive to automate that it becomes a no-brainer.

The captcha is no more than a padlock on a door.  Which is effective until what it is protecting is more valuable than the cost of buying a pair bolt cutters.


----------



## am1

comicbookman said:


> It appears that most people in this thread have no idea how a bot works.  First the requirement that random letter combinations be type periodically is a problem.  Second if that is overcome, in order or work efficiently the bot would require a very Reliable high speed connection.  Third the Wyndham website would have to be at its most responsive.  Finally, even simple monitoring by Wyndham would be able to notice suspect behavior.  While it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely that a bot is being used.  Ron 's approach of throwing people at the problem is more efficient, and more likely to succeed.



That all sounds good but I am not losing the amount of rooms that I have to 1 person constantly searching or a 100.  Just there along enough to see it but its gone.


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## comicbookman

I'm confused by the responses.   What does it matter if I am a player or not?  I made no comment about myself.  With 500 thousand plus owners, and plenty of mega renters the odds are good that you will loose a reservation in the cancel rebook game.  While a bot is possible, it is highly unlikely as it would be easy to spot by Wyndham it.  I could spot one and I am in charge of a much smaller it department.  Wild paranoid speculation is just that, speculation.  The Wyndham site is slow and glitchy by modern standards.  It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the ever increasing owner base, coupled with a smarter mega renter base would result in the behavior that has been  reported.


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## ronparise

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't see how anyone could have a program that can type in the random characters every few refreshes.  So if there is someone who made a program, they are smarter than Wyndham.  Maybe Wyndham knows and will do something about it.
> 
> I have a friend who hangs out a lot at Shearwater and plays tennis regularly with one of the salespeople for Wyndham.  This guy actually converted dozens of weeks to get Platinum level a few times over, and with the blessing of Wyndham corporate (more power to him).  Anyway, Wyndham is supposedly going to institute the same kind of thing WorldMark has: a waitlist process.  So there will be no inventory at prime locations when others are able to get it too.  It makes sense.  Disney has it, and WorldMark has it, so why not Wyndham?



There are a couple of ways to get through a closed door, One would be to use a battering ram and break the door down, Another  might be to just turn the knob.   

I suppose you could develop a system to "break the code" but it would be a whole lot easier to approach the problem the way Ive been solving computer problems since I bought my first computer I bet you can re boot and start again. 

so I think you are wrong about how smart Wyndhams IT people are.

But I think you are exactly right about  Wyndhams plan for a wait list.  (Ive worked with the salesmen at Bali Hai too. I know they know their stuff. )   I think a wait list will be a good thing for a lot of owners, but It wont put all the mega renters out of business,  And   if the wait list is meant to reduce rentals I think the effort will back fire.  If I do xxx  rentals a year to make the income I want , and if you double my cost, as long as there is a little profit to be had,  my rentals will continue.  In fact, my response will be to do more rentals  to maintain my cash flow,  not less. 

Remember too,  that most of the points that are used for rentals come from folks not interested in profit at all, They just want some help with the fees they owe, If they get their fees paid they are happy. 

By the way a Worldmark owner can have 8 waitlist requests working at the same time  and I have 7 accounts,    I dont  need to have my own bot developed for my Worldmark ownership, I can use Wyndhams, And the wait list  ends 2 weeks before check in when bonus time begins,    If the same sort of thing happens at Wyndham we start working at 15 days instead of 60 

 My point is that the smart guys will figure out how to make the system work for them


----------



## comicbookman

I agree.  Also, Wyndham IT people don't need to be super smart, they only need to be competent.  They are clearly that, or Wyndham would collapse.  It is a simple numbers game.  More and more people try the cancel rebook trick, and mega renters throw more and more people at it.  Even with a waitlist, mega renters will continue to rent.


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## ecwinch

They also need to be engaged and understand the underlying business to ensure alignment.  You may have missed the earlier comment - but they apparently are outsourced IT - probably offshore. 

In my 20+ years in the software development industry, rarely have I seen that type of arrangement deliver great results.  Other then ensuring uptime and response time - something they probably have an SLA for - I doubt they are actively monitoring request logs to detect client-side automation.


----------



## comicbookman

ecwinch said:


> They also need to be engaged and understand the underlying business to ensure alignment.  You may have missed the earlier comment - but they apparently are outsourced IT - probably offshore.
> 
> In my 20+ years in the software development industry, rarely have I seen that type of arrangement deliver great results.  Other then ensuring uptime and response time - something they probably have an SLA for - I doubt they are actively monitoring request logs to detect client-side automation.



In my 30 plus years in IT, I have learned that the above generalization is a common misconception.  Outsourced IT, like in house IT can be both good or bad.  If Wyndham wants to prevent bots, then active monitoring ( a simple task) is occurring.  When I worked for a local ISP back in the day, we did that for our clients.  There is no reason why an outsourcer large enough to handle Wyndham, wouldn't monitor as well, if Wyndham wants them to.


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## abeachbum

Let's all keep pestering the VC's over this, many of us calling over and over; and write letters to Wyndham to make sure they know this is a hot button item.  Wyndham WILL listen, just as they have with other things in the past.  And the end result will be as it always is when Wyndham listens, they will change it.  I've yet to see one of these changes (from "suggestions") benefit the program or process.  They will come up with a waitlist, but unfortunately, that creates a queue.  You may be a long way down on the queue and never see a thing, whereas now you have at least a chance of finding a cancellation.  If you are unhappy you are losing reservations because of the current cancel / rebook process, the waitlist won't help as it will guarantee you will lose the reservation every time.  Currently you MAY lose it, but with a waitlist you WILL lose it, so what have you gained?  And as always when these changes come into place, a few will have the processes and resources to exploit that system and discover the unknown loopholes it too will create, meaning in the end we end up with a process that benefits the majority less and only helps the smaller group it was intended to actually hinder.  The patient cat eventually catches the mouse.  If you cover the mouse hole, the mouse is still in your house, he just finds a new way to get around and you and the cat lose in the end.

I enjoy the current process, and look at it like a treasure hunt.  I find some amazing vacancies pop up.  Trips I never would have taken otherwise.

Please don't get me wrong.  The waitlist, on the surface, seems like it would be a brilliant way to solve the problem.  But when I think it through, I see another process coming that only makes my account usage more difficult, and ultimately a work around will be found for the biggest players, meaning in the end I lose either way, but for sure I lose with a waitlist (with my personal use).


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## Beefnot

Well, Wyndham has had Shell for 2 years now and if the gaping holes in Shell's website reservations system are any indication, then I would not be surprised if Wyndham's IT prowess is not nearly as sophisticated as one might be inclined to think.


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## comicbookman

Beefnot said:


> Well, Wyndham has had Shell for 2 years now and if the gaping holes in Shell's website reservations system are any indication, then I would not be surprised if Wyndham's IT prowess is not nearly as sophisticated as one might be inclined to think.



I'm curious.  I had heard that Shells system was really bad before being acquired by Wyndham.  Is that correct?  I have no personal experience with the Shell system.


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## Beefnot

comicbookman said:


> I'm curious. I had heard that Shells system was really bad before being acquired by Wyndham. Is that correct? I have no personal experience with the Shell system.



Yes it was really bad, and Wyndham has done two major site maintenance "upgrades" last year and this year in which they took the site down all day each time. The last upgrade included physically moving the Shell servers to Wyndham's operations in Florida.  However, there remain issues and flaws that I am not at liberty to elaborate on, which make me wonder how much IT oversight is really occurring.


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## comicbookman

Beefnot said:


> Yes it was really bad, and Wyndham has done two major site maintenance "upgrades" last year and this year in which they took the site down all day each time. The last upgrade included physically moving the Shell servers to Wyndham's operations in Florida.  However, there remain issues and flaws that I am not at liberty to elaborate on, which make me wonder how much IT oversight is really occurring.



Interesting.  It is not a trivial to overhall a system as complex and with as much data as the Shell (or Wyndham) reservation system contains.  Slow progress, does not necessarily indicate a lack of oversight.  Usually it indicates a lack of corporate will (often driven by an unwillingness to spend money) What most corporate bean counters fail to understand is that a shaky system requires more oversight (and thus more money) to run.  Has it improved with the upgrades?


----------



## Beefnot

comicbookman said:


> Interesting. It is not a trivial to overhall a system as complex and with as much data as the Shell (or Wyndham) reservation system contains. Slow progress, does not necessarily indicate a lack of oversight. Usually it indicates a lack of corporate will (often driven by an unwillingness to spend money) What most corporate bean counters fail to understand is that a shaky system requires more oversight (and thus more money) to run. Has it improved with the upgrades?



Agree on the complexity of overhauling.  I have already said more than I should about the lack of oversight, so I will leave it there. Maybe Wyndham is still in the process of assimilating personnel, technical infrastructure, and routines, so that any lingering shortcomings with Shell are not a reflection of Wyndham.  But to answer your question about improvements, stability has seemed to improve a little bit. Over and out.


----------



## comicbookman

Beefnot said:


> Agree on the complexity of overhauling.  I have already said more than I should about the lack of oversight, so I will leave it there. Maybe Wyndham is still in the process of assimilating personnel, technical infrastructure, and routines, so that any lingering shortcomings with Shell are not a reflection of Wyndham.  But to answer your question about improvements, stability has seemed to improve a little bit. Over and out.



Thanks for the responses.


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## jebloomquist

*Are there WorldMark waitlist safeguards?*

How does the WorldMark waitlist work? 

My concern is that a mega-renter could put in thousands of wait requests. How is that stopped? How does the average owner compete with someone who enters one hundred thousand waitlist requests? Is there a limit? What is it?

Are the number of requests available based upon the number of points an owner has? One of the mega-renters suggests that he controls many accounts and 200 million Wyndham points. That could translate into a very large number of waitlist requests.

Once again, how is it that the WorldMark waitlist is not abused?

Jim


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## cotraveller

jebloomquist said:


> How does the WorldMark waitlist work?
> 
> My concern is that a mega-renter could put in thousands of wait requests. How is that stopped? How does the average owner compete with someone who enters one hundred thousand waitlist requests? Is there a limit? What is it?
> 
> Are the number of requests available based upon the number of points an owner has? One of the mega-renters suggests that he controls many accounts and 200 million Wyndham points. That could translate into a very large number of waitlist requests.
> 
> Once again, how is it that the WorldMark waitlist is not abused?
> 
> Jim



The WorldMark waitlist limits you to a maximum of 4 (or 8, depending on who you talk to at the VPC) requests per account.  Account size does not have any bearing on the number of requests you can have in place. I currently have 5 different waitlists in effect on my account looking to fill one of two existing partial reservations I have.

If you have multiple WorldMark accounts, like Ron said he has, you could put waitlists on each account upping the total number of waitlist requests you have in place.  Is that abuse?  I'd say not, with multiple accounts you are paying multiple maintenance dues and higher dues than if you combined everything into one account.  By keeping the accounts separate you get a few benefits of maintaining those accounts.

There was discussion in the September WorldMark Board of Directors meeting of implementing a $15 charge for each confirmed waitlist reservation but that idea was tabled until 2015.  I doubt that such a charge would have much impact on use of the waitlist.

I'm not a Wyndham owner so the cancel/rebook being discussed in this thread has no direct bearing on me, but I have found it interesting.  I do think that we should stop referring to such things as loopholes.  Undocumented features or undocumented benefits seems to fit better.


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## Rent_Share

8 Per Account, Ron has admitted to having 7 accounts which would give him 56

You can request them on line, but are dependent on the CSR's to confirm they are in place. There is no way to track what wait list requests on your reservation request.

As to cancel and rebook, there are limitations to rebooking, the primary scenario they sought to block was locking a week @ 13 days and rebooking a three day weekend @ 90 months when the less than 7 day window opened up. leaving the orphan days potentially unoccupied.

 I did book a seven day reservation for Comicon, when the four days opened up for waitlist I booked those AND THEN cancelled the 7 day reservation, doesn't work the other way around - ended up cancelling the four nights,  my ~Adult~ kids cancelled, overpriced it on Craigslist list. Ron probably scooped it up.


----------



## am1

I doubt wyndham could get a waitlist to work.  Discounts, upgrades, amount of resort and owners, cancellation policies, the reservations are easily split up will all make a waitlist nearly impossible.


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## Rent_Share

am1 said:


> I doubt wyndham could get a waitlist to work. Discounts, upgrades, amount of resort and owners, cancellation policies, the reservations are easily split up will all make a waitlist nearly impossible.



Don't over think it,

With Worldmark, they send you an email for the unit size and date, you have 24 hours to call in an claim it with a CSR. They do not attempt to program fulfillment online. If you don't take it goes to next person in line eventually ending up on the web site.

In theory you could book a week with 7 different hits on the wait list, what is unclear if you accept a partial, is the balance of your request stays at he top of the list or moves to the bottom.

 On the two times I have used it, it took multiple cancellations to completely fulfill my request, there was plenty of time left to cancel in the event the balance didn't come through.


----------



## am1

Oh and having to add a guest name the same day for overrides.


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## CO skier

jebloomquist said:


> How does the WorldMark waitlist work?
> 
> My concern is that a mega-renter could put in thousands of wait requests. How is that stopped? How does the average owner compete with someone who enters one hundred thousand waitlist requests? Is there a limit? What is it?
> 
> Are the number of requests available based upon the number of points an owner has? One of the mega-renters suggests that he controls many accounts and 200 million Wyndham points. That could translate into a very large number of waitlist requests.
> 
> Once again, how is it that the WorldMark waitlist is not abused?
> 
> Jim



There are no 50% discounts for anyone in the WorldMark system, so there is little to be gained by abusing the waitlist.

The waitlist request remains in effect until cancelled by the owner, or it is automatically cancelled 14 days before the last requested arrival date.

Waitlist requests are entered manually and fulfilled manually.  I have used it a few times, and it works for me and any of the other 250,000 owners at about 80 resorts.  It is not rocket science or even computer science.

There would be training and a learning curve for the VPCs to implement a waitlist, but it would be simple to use the same procedures in the Wyndham system.  The rules for a Wyndham system waitlist would need to be different, though, to be effective.

Wyndham waitlist requests would need to be filled only at full points with no discounts or upgrades allowed, otherwise it would just change the form and timing of the exploitations.  Since the waitlist request could only be fulfilled through a VPC, it would not matter how many accounts someone had; the reservation could only be made using the full amount of points.  There would be no advantage to entering multiple waitlist requests.

Today's games could still continue after the waitlists are automatically cancelled at 10 days or 14 or however many days the waitlists remain in effect.

Cancel/rebooking with only 10 or 14 days to find a renter or lose all the points would make the game much more exciting.

Rumors of a Wyndham waitlist have circulated for years; I stopped holding my breath a long time ago.


----------



## am1

CO skier said:


> There are no 50% discounts for anyone in the WorldMark system, so there is little to be gained by abusing the waitlist.
> 
> The waitlist request remains in effect until cancelled by the owner, or it is automatically cancelled 14 days before the last requested arrival date.
> 
> Waitlist requests are entered manually and fulfilled manually.  I have used it a few times, and it works for me and any of the other 250,000 owners at about 80 resorts.  It is not rocket science or even computer science.
> 
> There would be training and a learning curve for the VPCs to implement a waitlist, but it would be simple to use the same procedures in the Wyndham system.  The rules for a Wyndham system waitlist would need to be different, though, to be effective.
> 
> Wyndham waitlist requests would need to be filled only at full points with no discounts or upgrades allowed, otherwise it would just change the form and timing of the exploitations.  Since the waitlist request could only be fulfilled through a VPC, it would not matter how many accounts someone had; the reservation could only be made using the full amount of points.  There would be no advantage to entering multiple waitlist requests.
> 
> Today's games could still continue after the waitlists are automatically cancelled at 10 days or 14 or however many days the waitlists remain in effect.
> 
> Cancel/rebooking with only 10 or 14 days to find a renter or lose all the points would make the game much more exciting.
> 
> Rumors of a Wyndham waitlist have circulated for years; I stopped holding my breath a long time ago.



So a waitlist outside of 60 days.  Maybe even 90 days as prime season still require 3, 4 or 7 night reservations.  That would be a lot easier for Wyndham to control.   They may have a shot at pulling that off.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> So a waitlist outside of 60 days.  Maybe even 90 days as prime season still require 3, 4 or 7 night reservations.  That would be a lot easier for Wyndham to control.   They may have a shot at pulling that off.



WorldMark reservations made more than 10 months in advance have a 7-day minimum requirement.  That does not have any effect on the waitlist window.

In the WorldMark system, reservations made more than 90 days in advance may be cancelled with no penalty up to 30 days in advance .  The waitlist extends to 14 days in advance.

Because the no-penalty cancellation in Wyndham is 15 days, that is why I think a Wyndham waitlist, if it ever happens, would have an automatic cancellation date around 10-15 days in advance.


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## ecwinch

Implementing a waitlist that involved impairing the VIP benefits (ie. no pts discounts within 60 days for waitlist) would be problematic for Wyndham. 

I could see waitlist being introduced, but not with that limitation. And as you note, that would just change the timing and mechanics of how the game is played.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> Implementing a waitlist that involved impairing the VIP benefits (ie. no pts discounts within 60 days for waitlist) would be problematic for Wyndham.
> 
> I could see waitlist being introduced, but not with that limitation. And as you note, that would just change the timing and mechanics of how the game is played.



Wyndham did not have any problem eliminating the VIP unlimited guest certificates in 2008; they just did it.

Wyndham also eliminated the owner-to-owner transfer of points for all owners, which is a much bigger issue than impairing a VIP discount in a waitlist reservation.

Here is the condensed version for anyone who is not familiar with the details:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87574

Post #4 in the link provides some perspective, particularly this quote, "I personally can understand why Wyndham did what it did and I can understand why a few folks worked the system that was available. 

If you are new to Wyndham or considering Wyndham Points ownership be aware that what is promised, especially by sales people, can be taken away."


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> Implementing a waitlist that involved impairing the VIP benefits (ie. no pts discounts within 60 days for waitlist) would be problematic for Wyndham.
> 
> I could see waitlist being introduced, but not with that limitation. And as you note, that would just change the timing and mechanics of how the game is played.



I think they could implement it with that limitation. In fact, I think they could require that you deposit the points required to make the reservation in order to be added to the wait list. If you don't clear the wait list, or at any point prior that you wish, you can cancel the wait list request and the points are returned to the contract they came from. So if you want to clear the wait list, you would likely have to deposit points at full value. There is also lots of discussion that one of the future upgrades is that when reservations are made you will pick which contract the points come from. If that is implemented it is also likely that VIP benefits will only be extended to contracts that are eligible for VIP rather than all points in the account. 

The other aspect is... what if you clear the wait list on day 72? If you don't book then, you lose it and fall off the wait list.

I don't think there's any question that a wait list will seriously impact the cancel/rebook game. 

That is why I won't be calling to complain about the potential issue of hackers using bots to grab cancelled reservations. I think Wyndham's approach to the cure will cause more harm than good.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Wyndham did not have any problem eliminating the VIP unlimited guest certificates; they just did it.
> 
> Wyndham also eliminated the owner-to-owner transfer of points for all owners, which is a much bigger issue than impairing a VIP discount in a waitlist reservation.
> 
> Here is the condensed version for anyone who is not familiar with the details:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87574
> 
> Post #4 in the link provides some perspective, particularly this quote, "I personally can understand why Wyndham did what it did and I can understand why a few folks worked the system that was available.
> 
> If you are new to Wyndham or considering Wyndham Points ownership be aware that what is promised, especially by sales people, can be taken away."



Absolutely right. From the perspective of a typical owner who owns Wyndham points for personal and family use, the mega-renters are a major problem because they capture a large percentage of the available inventory at peak demand times, making the Wyndham point investment less attractive for "Joe Average". The most common lament made by owners at "owner updates" is one of two issues: 1. maintenance fees keep going up (sales people love it when they hear this, as they have a "solution") 2. lack of availability to book what they want (which leads them to talk up CWA and is one of the reasons CWA is being pushed so hard now).


----------



## DeeDibble

Bigrob said:


> Except one player is specifically going against the Terms Of Use - for which they can lose online access. I think you might feel differently if you had not been able to cancel and rebook any of your recent reservations because the bots were playing in your back yard... which is probably only a matter of time.



Thanks Bigrob..... Yes,  I too think others would feel differently if they were unsuccessful at canceling and rebooking reservations because the bots were playing in their backyard.


----------



## ronparise

DeeDibble said:


> Thanks Bigrob..... Yes,  I too think others would feel differently if they were unsuccessful at canceling and rebooking reservations because the bots were playing in their backyard.



Dee, there is no doubt that I would act differently if the bots were playing in my sandbox, but I wouldnt feel differently

50% discounts are meant to put "heads in beds" at under utilized properties. That Im able to get a Mardi Gras reservation at a 50% discount or that someone else is able to get Bonnet Creek at Christmas at 50%, is just crazy. And as much as I like that I can do it,  it is not something that Im entitled to.
Take it away and my attitude will be....That was good while it lasted....and Ill adapt to a new way of doing business....maybe Ill have to get a real job.


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## Ron2

ronparise said:


> 50% discounts are meant to put "heads in beds" at under utilized properties.



I’m sure you’re right as to the original intent of the discount period. However, the cancel-rebook process when applied to gain the maximum points benefits ties up extra units that otherwise could have been reserved by other owners during the standard and advance reservation periods. I realize that the sales folks use this unintended VIP benefit as a sales tool to get people to buy enough points to become VIP, but it doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't benefit the average non-VIP owner. In fact a few years ago one sales rep even provided me with detailed written instructions on how to get the maximum advantage from the cancel-rebook process. If cancel-rebook was a legitimate VP perk it would be outlined in the Wyndham Members Directory, but as we all know, its not. I enjoy the 50% discounts and free upgrades as much as the next guy, but I don’t game the system by reserving 2 units (a small and a large) when I only want the large unit. Hopefully Wyndham won’t eliminate the discount reservation period in favor of a wait list. It would only create new problems. I think a better solution to control cancel-rebook would be for Wyndham to hold cancellations for a short period of time and randomly reinsert them into the reservation system over a period of a day or two. This would be more fair to all owners and make more units available early on as well as during the discount period.


----------



## ronparise

Ron2 said:


> I’m sure you’re right as to the original intent of the discount period. However, the cancel-rebook process when applied to gain the maximum points benefits ties up extra units that otherwise could have been reserved by other owners during the standard and advance reservation periods. I realize that the sales folks use this unintended VIP benefit as a sales tool to get people to buy enough points to become VIP, but it doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't benefit the average non-VIP owner. In fact a few years ago one sales rep even provided me with detailed written instructions on how to get the maximum advantage from the cancel-rebook process. If cancel-rebook was a legitimate VP perk it would be outlined in the Wyndham Members Directory, but as we all know, its not. I enjoy the 50% discounts and free upgrades as much as the next guy, but I don’t game the system by reserving 2 units (a small and a large) when I only want the large unit. Hopefully Wyndham won’t eliminate the discount reservation period in favor of a wait list. It would only create new problems. I think a better solution to control cancel-rebook would be for Wyndham to hold cancellations for a short period of time and randomly reinsert them into the reservation system over a period of a day or two. This would be more fair to all owners and make more units available early on as well as during the discount period.



I agree with you completely....it's not right. And it will be fixed. The random reload will work which is why I'm willing to pay someone to develop a program to get me the dates I want


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## Ron2

ronparise said:


> I agree with you completely....it's not right. And it will be fixed. The random reload will work which is why I'm willing to pay someone to develop a program to get me the dates I want



Those computer programs and bots have been a major issue of concern in this thread. I’m sure such programs can be developed. Likely a disgruntled Wyndham computer programmer could write such a program and may have already done so. To thwart any such programs that may be out there and any that may be developed, Wyndham should add the “Security Verification” screen to the owner log in process. As annoying as it is when making numerous reservation searches, a random security verification code may be worth it to keep out the unauthorized bots and computerized searches.


----------



## CruiseGuy

Ron2 said:


> Those computer programs and bots have been a major issue of concern in this thread. I’m sure such programs can be developed. Likely a disgruntled Wyndham computer programmer could write such a program and may have already done so. To thwart any such programs that may be out there and any that may be developed, Wyndham should add the “Security Verification” screen to the owner log in process. As annoying as it is when making numerous reservation searches, a random security verification code may be worth it to keep out the unauthorized bots and computerized searches.



This, in addition to having the verification after a certain number of reservation searches.  While it may slow things down a little for the bots, the way around the verification is having bots log off and log back on, and it's easy enough to minimize that impact.  So putting a verification at log in time is another obstacle for the bots to get past.


----------



## Sandi Bo

The terms of use clearly stating that our online access can be revoked is enough reason for me not to pursue writing anything.  I have one account and cannot afford to lose my access. Trying to live with "the bots" is something I need to deal with. And of course I have concerns on how Wyndham might take care of things.  

The wait list doesn't address the issue.  It may make it more difficult.  Those with multiple accounts and millions of points will always have the advantage. 

The authentication screen is not the answer.  Things like that only slow down the honest people, there are ways to circumvent it. It's painful enough for me now, I don't want to see more of it. 

Randomly inserting reservations throughout the day will further encourage "the bots".  Rather than only needing to run at opportune times to pick up cancellations, or when they are cancelling and rebooking, I suspect "the bots" would run throughout the day - further degrading the performance of the system.  The less predictable the availability, the more "the bots" are needed. 

I would think Wyndham could monitor the time it takes to complete transactions.  It doesn't matter how long it takes -- there are many things that can affect timings (your connection, number of users on the system, etc).  But there is a minimum time it takes a human to do something, and "the bots" are doing it faster. Finding transactions completed in less than the minimum possible time would, I think, be the place to start.  Looking only at the time it takes to select a room after it is found in a search would be a great metric for Wyndham to look at.   That's a key place where we're losing to "the bots". 

Cancel/rebook is how this topic got started.  But it's just as relevant (if not more so) to finding last minute cancellations.


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## Ron2

Sandi Bo - You’re right about one thing. The wait list would be a disaster with the mega-owners and points managers loading up the wait lists with numerous requests. As to the bots, I totally disagree with you. None of us owners should need to learn to live with and compete with the bots. Anyone using any robot, spider, intelligent agent, or meta-searching is in clear violation of the “Terms of Use” of the Wyndham Owners Website and should be identified and banned from the website. Keeping them out in the first place would be far easier and more effective than trying to detect how fast they can complete transactions. After all its unlikely that bots are completing transactions but rather they are continually searching for specific reservations and finding them when we humans are not looking.


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## chapjim

Ron2 said:


> I think a better solution to control cancel-rebook would be for Wyndham to hold cancellations for a short period of time and randomly reinsert them into the reservation system over a period of a day or two. This would be more fair to all owners and make more units available early on as well as during the discount period.



It used to be that cancelled reservations didn't appear in inventory until 8 AM the next day.  The cancel-rebook game only became really attractive when Wyndham started putting reservations back into inventory almost immediately after cancellation.

And, there's a good reason cancel-rebook isn't documented in Wyndham's directory.  Cancel-rebook is just a combination of two features that are documented -- cancellation, which anyone can do, and VIP booking at a discount within 60 days of check-in.  Some creative people put them together.

I have no moral problem cancelling and rebooking.  The key feature is the VIP discount, for which I paid a whole p-pot of money.  For the egalitarians out there, that is a point often missed.  Wyndham offers a benefit for those who spend a p-pot of money and doesn't extend that benefit to those who don't.  I'm doing nothing illegal, unethical, or immoral in using that benefit.  

The "fairness to all owners" is a nonsense argument.  What's fair about someone who paid cents on the dollar having the same benefits as someone who paid full price?


----------



## am1

chapjim said:


> It used to be that cancelled reservations didn't appear in inventory until 8 AM the next day.  The cancel-rebook game only became really attractive when Wyndham started putting reservations back into inventory almost immediately after cancellation.



Looking back it is hard to stomach doing the cancel and rebook by having to wait till the next morning. Had to do one good reservation and maybe a few others each day.   It did make 8ams much more interesting.


----------



## tschwa2

If Wyndham wanted to limit the cancel/rebook all they would have to do is make cancellations ineligible to be booked at a discount rate for the identical reservation from the same account or require a minimum of 24 hours before an identical cancelled reservation could be booked from the same account.  Wyndham owners with multiple VIP eligible accounts would have a work around but it would still work to Wyndhams advantage as those owners paid for more VIP eligible points if they have enough for multiple accounts. 

The real winners would be the VIP points management companies.


----------



## chapjim

tschwa2 said:


> If Wyndham wanted to limit the cancel/rebook all they would have to do is make cancellations ineligible to be booked at a discount rate for the identical reservation from the same account or require a minimum of 24 hours before an identical cancelled reservation could be booked from the same account.  Wyndham owners with multiple VIP eligible accounts would have a work around but it would still work to Wyndhams advantage as those owners paid for more VIP eligible points if they have enough for multiple accounts.
> 
> The real winners would be the VIP points management companies.



All true but the VIP points management companies will offer much less than they used to.


----------



## ronparise

chapjim said:


> All true but the VIP points management companies will offer much less than they used to.



What the points managers  offer now, if you are lucky,  is enough to cover mf. the discount is where their profit is. 

If their profit margin is squeezed enough because they cant get the reservations at a discount, they will either reduce what they pay their owners, or raise prices or some combination of the two. I think the points managers will do fine

My approach to make up for lost cash flow in the event a wait list is instituted, and the cancel and rebook game is ended, will be to concentrate my activities when and where I can get the most bang for my buck, and to do more rentals not less.  In anticipation of changes (wait list and otherwise) I bought another 3 million La Belle Maison and CWA points and 4 more Avenue Plaza weeks and 20000 Worldmark Credits in the last 2 months.


----------



## Beefnot

ronparise said:


> In anticipation of changes (wait list and otherwise) I bought another 3 million La Belle Maison and CWA points and 4 more Avenue Plaza weeks and 20000 Worldmark Credits in the last 2 months.



 Holy crap. and you do all your business on craigslist? I didn't think there was enough demand for vacation rentals on craigslist to support super jigh volume rentals.


----------



## chapjim

Beefnot said:


> Holy crap. and you do all your business on craigslist? I didn't think there was enough demand for vacation rentals on craigslist to support super jigh volume rentals.



Can't speak for anyone else but I hold my nose and do a lot of business on Craig's List.  As has been discussed here many times, dirtballs abound on Craig's List but they're pretty easy to spot.

Craig's List is like a good restaurant in a bad neighborhood.


----------



## ronparise

Beefnot said:


> Holy crap. and you do all your business on craigslist? I didn't think there was enough demand for vacation rentals on craigslist to support super jigh volume rentals.



Most of what I do is wholesale points to the points managers I do slightly better than a break even on a whole lot of points

I do some wyndham points on my own and some  Worldmark credits and some floating weeks at Avenue Plaza... which is where I make my money

What I been doing recently is to re-position.  Im selling off a ton, and buying some  with a concentration in New Orleans and one other place (no disclosure yet)  The plan is to cut back to about  a third of where I was and do my own rentals, and begin to do more buying and selling, either as a broker for commissions, or in and out of my own account for profit

A lot of my customers are becoming regulars, and they all came from Craigs list...New customers come from craigs list too...I picked up 5 reservations for the Sugar Bowl, and rented them all to Craigs list Alabama fans in a few days...ezpz   http://neworleans.craigslist.org/vac/4774532833.html

dont worry, Im not soliciting...they are all rented


----------



## am1

What is the liability of any one that is using a computer program to search for inventory (which is against the terms and conditions of Wyndham)?  Not easy to find out who it is or assess damages though.  Well with Wyndham's help I could easily find out who.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> What is the liability of any one that is using a computer program to search for inventory (which is against the terms and conditions of Wyndham)?  Not easy to find out who it is or assess damages though.  Well with Wyndham's help I could easily find out who.



Wyndham reserves the right to eliminate without warning online access altogether for the account(s) associated to a Terms of Use violation. I am not sure what additional civil liabilities may also be involved if Wyndham were to prove that use of such programs had caused maintenance issues or site outages or slowdowns.


----------



## am1

Thanks but I am asking in regards to other owners who have been affected.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Thanks but I am asking in regards to other owners who have been affected.



Meaning, is there a potential civil liability to all other owners who are "injured parties" if their access to the website or VIP-associated benefits have been compromised by actions specifically forbidden by the Wyndham Terms of Use? I think it would be very difficult for the "injured party" to pursue civil damages in this case. An owner wishing to pursue such civil action would have to 1) determine the guilty parties (requiring cooperation from Wyndham); 2) prove causation (violating the ToU alone is not enough; said violation must be the cause for harm, which would be difficult to prove) 3) since the VIP benefits are not covered by any kind of guarantee either express or implied, it may not even make it past a motion for summary judgment.

I am not an attorney but I have to believe this would be a long-shot.


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> Meaning, is there a potential civil liability to all other owners who are "injured parties" if their access to the website or VIP-associated benefits have been compromised by actions specifically forbidden by the Wyndham Terms of Use? I think it would be very difficult for the "injured party" to pursue civil damages in this case. An owner wishing to pursue such civil action would have to 1) determine the guilty parties (requiring cooperation from Wyndham); 2) prove causation (violating the ToU alone is not enough; said violation must be the cause for harm, which would be difficult to prove) 3) since the VIP benefits are not covered by any kind of guarantee either express or implied, it may not even make it past a motion for summary judgment.
> 
> I am not an attorney but I have to believe this would be a long-shot.



Probably right but the biggest hurdle would being judgement proof.  Unless we had a system where paying up avoided jail time.


----------



## chapjim

am1 said:


> Probably right but the biggest hurdle would being judgement proof.  Unless we had a system where paying up avoided jail time.



Civil suits are for damages, don't result in jail time.

BTW, I lost two reservations at Ocean Walk today.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Were you successful with any?   Could you see them back in the system and someone grabbed them faster then you?

It was reported earlier that there was a water main break at Ocean Walk.  If that's the case, Wyndham may be recovering the rooms (in which case you would never see them come back in the system when you cancelled).


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> Were you successful with any?   Could you see them back in the system and someone grabbed them faster then you?
> 
> It was reported earlier that there was a water main break at Ocean Walk.  If that's the case, Wyndham may be recovering the rooms (in which case you would never see them come back in the system when you cancelled).



Never saw a thing.  I stayed with it for about twenty minutes (sometimes a cancelled reservation pops up again after fifteen minutes).

I knew Santa Barbara in Pompano had water problems. Didn't know Ocean Walk did as well.

The ones I lost were a 1BR and a 2BR LO.  Not rented, no great harm.  Just some lost profits.  I still have four three-bedroom units.

Speaking of water damage, I think Wyndham's reservation site suffered some.


----------



## am1

chapjim said:


> Civil suits are for damages, don't result in jail time.
> 
> BTW, I lost two reservations at Ocean Walk today.



Yes civil suits are for damages.  If someone is judgement proof I would be happy if they went to jail or somehow able to find the money to pay. A lot more people would get paid.


----------



## chapjim

am1 said:


> Yes civil suits are for damages.  If someone is judgement proof I would be happy if they went to jail or somehow able to find the money to pay. A lot more people would get paid.



It's unlikely that someone in jail will somehow be able to find the money to pay a judgment.  Jailing someone might provide some satisfaction but that's all.

Judgments are easy.  Collections are not.


----------



## vacationhopeful

am1 said:


> Yes civil suits are for damages.  If someone is judgement proof I would be happy if they went to jail or somehow able to find the money to pay. A lot more people would get paid.



I agree that most civil suits are not collectable. It is the OLD WORLD views of debtor prisons which rooted that "reform" into the American legal system. And the laws of bankruptcy is now a major factor in financial planning for both individuals. "Judgment Proof" just represents GOOD FINANCIAL planning if you listen to both lawyers, accountants & financial planners.

And of course, lawyers, accountants and financial planners require their fees paid in advance or a percentage base each month.

Most people with the threat of imprisonment either find the money to pay OR make more prudent financial decisions to pay their bills.

And I say this after listening to yesterday's phone message from a "evicted with sheriff officer" tenant trying to finish removing the 30 construction bags of debris (scattered loose on the floor) from my property along with her washer & dryer and the refrigerator (all acceptable appliances with a value of ($750-950). What a JOKE! She wants the appliances - I got 29 more days before I have to allow her to collect her possessions. And she wants to make "payment arrangements" to pay for her unpaid rent (right, NOT ONE RED CENT in 3+ months - thousands of dollars down the drain). And this was the first phone call from her in 3 months also. Locked out and NOW my new best friend.


----------



## vacationhopeful

chapjim said:


> It's unlikely that someone in jail will somehow be able to find the money to pay a judgment.  Jailing someone might provide some satisfaction but that's all.
> 
> Judgments are easy.  Collections are not.



Most people will avoid jail by making better decisions or the hidden money will be produced. Consumer debt is different than medical bills.

It is like the kid (whether 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years old) whose mother always bails them out --- they just kept spending and living large. Then mom is drained down to zero or dies or other family members' end the access to the bank account.


----------



## am1

chapjim said:


> It's unlikely that someone in jail will somehow be able to find the money to pay a judgment.  Jailing someone might provide some satisfaction but that's all.
> 
> Judgments are easy.  Collections are not.



I am asking for the government to provide people with judgements against them a reason to pay.  Probably asking too much.


----------



## vacationhopeful

am1 said:


> I am asking for the government to provide people with judgements against them a reason to pay.  Probably asking too much.



The government is collecting Federal Income Tax refunds for Student Loan debt ... which is also not wiped out by bankruptcy court actions. But then again, the government allows forgiving portions of the loans IF you teach in a low income school or work in certain fields.


----------



## Pietin

vacationhopeful said:


> The government is collecting Federal Income Tax refunds for Student Loan debt ... which is also not wiped out by bankruptcy court actions. But then again, the government allows forgiving portions of the loans IF you teach in a low income school or work in certain fields.



It also has income sensitive payment plans to help borrows.  If you work of a non-prof for ten years the loan is forgiven.   Most loans are for 10 years though so to benefit you need to be on incomes sensitive.  This applies to federal loans and not private student loans.  I think that the government is more forgiving than Wyndham though, could you imagine if Wyndham could go after you tax return...


----------



## Rent_Share

am1 said:


> I am asking for the government to provide people with judgements against them a reason to pay. Probably asking too much.



The right to discharge debt (legally incurred) was provided for in the constitution, _Article I, Section 8, Clause 4_

http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/41/bankruptcy-clause


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> DEE
> 
> I dont understand your complaint. The discounts within 60 days are meant to get vacancies into  reservations.   When I cancel and rebook I am doing it to get a discount on something I have already reserved.
> If Wyndham institutes a wait list, or somehow stops us from playing the cancel and rebook game, those reservations wont be cancelled at all, and  they will never come available in the 60 day window.
> 
> If you are vip and your complaint is that you are losing reservations playing cancel and rebook, then you have nothing to complain about either. Its just that someone else is playing it better than you.



Ron what do you do at 15 days out when the reservation has not rented? Do you abandon the points and cancel the reservation or do you take the loss? Do you wait until the 15 days or make that decision in advance? Do you wake up at 6am each day and rebook / cancel before 11:15? What do most people do? The reason I ask is because in any system there should be cancellations and a wait list - while that would ruin the cancel/rebook, and would destroy the mass renter industry in Wyndham would not be lost on the regular owners looking for a stay. thoughts?


----------



## happyhopian

I booked two weeks at BC in December for christmas/new year. I also do a lot of booking with 1.7million points in plat vip. I too have noticed a significant change in the last year. I have not seen ANY inventory open up for Mardi Gras or Easter since before Thanksgiving. I monitor the site multiple times a day. I have seen several one and two night stays pop up and gone before I can click (where the screen pop up saying there was a problem and that the inventory I was seeking is not available). Something is definitely different.

Also when I checked in at BC it was late and they were doing their settlements. On the counter was the check in report, for that day. It was turned to the last page and it had a summary for booking types. It say WYN 11% Owner 23% Guest 22% EH 42% Other 2%. How in the heck can wyn and eh have more than 50% of the bookings for one day? This is incredible. There use to be a rule that if EH wasn't booked x days before a date it was returned to the wyndham system?

Wyndham is giving extra points away to people, expanding the system by allowing vip points, and using points to book units...is this all being done with THEIR inventory or are they using open inventory and is this allowed in Florida under the time share laws. While there are some new wyndham contracts - there is no way this was considered and provided for in contracts authored by Fairfield 15 years ago and therefore they would not risk something that would violate ANYONE's agreement...or would they?

I am going to ask for an accounting for points or bookings by group at the next annual meeting. Ron I know you go to lots, have you ever asked for or considered such? Is there a recourse to finding out if they are trying to get the system to overbook and/or increase utilization by recirculating points


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> There are a couple of ways to get through a closed door, One would be to use a battering ram and break the door down, Another  might be to just turn the knob.
> 
> I suppose you could develop a system to "break the code" but it would be a whole lot easier to approach the problem the way Ive been solving computer problems since I bought my first computer I bet you can re boot and start again.



Creating a bot to break the system is easy. You don't need to enter the image code you just set a program to retry the saem sesarch code I paste in my favorites when I'm looking for a specific week. The script will try six times, then send the html string to logout, then one second later the string to login with the user and password included and then resume the search string. Doing this multiple times hard coded until the results change and a human is put in play. This is really not that difficult and I can assure you it is being done as we speak


----------



## happyhopian

CO skier said:


> Wyndham did not have any problem eliminating the VIP unlimited guest certificates in 2008; they just did it.
> 
> Wyndham also eliminated the owner-to-owner transfer of points for all owners, which is a much bigger issue than impairing a VIP discount in a waitlist reservation.
> 
> Here is the condensed version for anyone who is not familiar with the details:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87574
> 
> Post #4 in the link provides some perspective, particularly this quote, "I personally can understand why Wyndham did what it did and I can understand why a few folks worked the system that was available.
> 
> If you are new to Wyndham or considering Wyndham Points ownership be aware that what is promised, especially by sales people, can be taken away."



The only thing keeping people buying Wyndham Developer sold points is the VIP system. If they change it and take away the discount, who would ever buy developer points instead of resale? Wyndham - while they can tinker with VIP, simply cannot afford to destroy it by taking away the discounts. Removing the unlimited guest affected a small portion or megas, which is exactly who they were after. Removing the discounts would affect ALL vip owners and render developer purchased points worthless.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron what do you do at 15 days out when the reservation has not rented? Do you abandon the points and cancel the reservation or do you take the loss? Do you wait until the 15 days or make that decision in advance? Do you wake up at 6am each day and rebook / cancel before 11:15? What do most people do? The reason I ask is because in any system there should be cancellations and a wait list - while that would ruin the cancel/rebook, and would destroy the mass renter industry in Wyndham would not be lost on the regular owners looking for a stay. thoughts?



What I do at 15 days depends on the reservation and whether I think I still might be able to rent it...Ive done all that stuff you mention

A wait list will certainly change things but I dont think it will ruin anything.. If nothing else we can  adapt pretty well


----------



## Bigrob

happyhopian said:


> Ron what do you do at 15 days out when the reservation has not rented? Do you abandon the points and cancel the reservation or do you take the loss? Do you wait until the 15 days or make that decision in advance? Do you wake up at 6am each day and rebook / cancel before 11:15? What do most people do? The reason I ask is because in any system there should be cancellations and a wait list - while that would ruin the cancel/rebook, and would destroy the mass renter industry in Wyndham would not be lost on the regular owners looking for a stay. thoughts?



I went to a community group meeting for homeaway/vrbo a couple of months ago and a couple of people made an interesting observation. If you have a "hot" reservation it becomes MORE valuable inside 15 days. I'm not exactly sure where the "law of diminishing returns" lands - probably depends upon the location and event - but the demand increases at the exact time the supply is completely out. 

I had a New Year's Eve reservation at Bonnet Creek. I figured it was valuable, but it didn't rent through regular channels. It was on craigslist for 3 weeks without an inquiry. In the last week to 10 days, however, I fielded several calls a day. I ended up renting to someone who re-rented it, probably making another 30-50% on top of what I was charging.

I know another regular on TUG who always carries reservations into the cancellation window... hundreds over the course of doing it... and has only had to eat one or two. However, YMMV. I wouldn't play that game unless you know what you have is high demand.


----------



## chapjim

happyhopian said:


> Ron what do you do at 15 days out when the reservation has not rented? Do you abandon the points and cancel the reservation or do you take the loss? Do you wait until the 15 days or make that decision in advance? Do you wake up at 6am each day and rebook / cancel before 11:15? What do most people do? The reason I ask is because in any system there should be cancellations and a wait list - while that would ruin the cancel/rebook, and would destroy the mass renter industry in Wyndham would not be lost on the regular owners looking for a stay. thoughts?



It's all a matter of what are the alternatives and how do you feel about the reservation.

If I've listed a reservation for several weeks and it hasn't sold, I'll probably cancel it, recover the points, and load up some other time and/or some other place.

Exceptions:  (1) a reservation for an event week or weekend, what BigRob calls a "hot reservation"  (2) end of the use year (3) maybe an unsold reservation that I've had a lot of nibbles about.


----------



## am1

I usually hold everything till 15 days.  Lately almost everything has been moving.  I have started to keep more rooms inside 15 days lately as even with whats left there is a lot of interest.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> The only thing keeping people buying Wyndham Developer sold points is the VIP system. If they change it and take away the discount, who would ever buy developer points instead of resale? Wyndham - while they can tinker with VIP, simply cannot afford to destroy it by taking away the discounts. Removing the unlimited guest affected a small portion or megas, which is exactly who they were after. Removing the discounts would affect ALL vip owners and render developer purchased points worthless.



Thats just not true.

The VIP discount does not and can not  justify a developer purchase

If I pay $150000 for a million points (Platinum) Thats $ 7500 a year for the next 20 years  and the maintenance fees today, on a million points is about $5500 a year Thats  $13000 a year

Even if we assume our buyer can get all his reservations at the discounted price we are talking about just 10 weeks a year.  (ie $1300 a week)  That doesnt justify a purchase of this size

for the same 10 weeks a year done without the 50% discount Ill need 2 million points  which will cost me about $10000 on the secondary market (leaving my $14000 in a tax free muni bond fund paying 5%)  My mf will be $13000; less the interest on the bonds or $7000 a year.  Do the math and you see that withoyt VIP I can get the same vacations for halh the money a new VIP owner will pay

No Wyndham does not depend on VIP benefits to make sales.  They depend on high pressure sales fueled by half truths and exaggeration (some say lies and cheating) Themost important thing is that they depend on impulse buying and no research done by their buyers.  I spend more time deciding on, and shopping for a $100  pair of shoes, than most Wyndham buyers do spending thousands on a timeshare.


----------



## csxjohn

ronparise said:


> Thats just not true.
> 
> The VIP discount does not and can not  justify a developer purchase
> 
> If I pay $150000 for a million points (Platinum) Thats $ 7500 a year for the next 20 years  and the maintenance fees today, on a million points is about $5500 a year Thats  $13000 a year
> 
> Even if we assume our buyer can get all his reservations at the discounted price we are talking about just 10 weeks a year.  (ie $1300 a week)  That doesnt justify a purchase of this size
> 
> for the same 10 weeks a year done without the 50% discount Ill need 2 million points  which will cost me about $10000 on the secondary market (leaving my $14000 in a tax free muni bond fund paying 5%)  My mf will be $13000; less the interest on the bonds or $7000 a year.  Do the math and you see that withoyt VIP I can get the same vacations for halh the money a new VIP owner will pay
> 
> No Wyndham does not depend on VIP benefits to make sales.  They depend on high pressure sales fueled by half truths and exaggeration (some say lies and cheating) Themost important thing is that they depend on impulse buying and no research done by their buyers.  I spend more time deciding on, and shopping for a $100  pair of shoes, than most Wyndham buyers do spending thousands on a timeshare.



Of course it's not VIP bennies fueling these sales.  People are buying them everyday without getting those bennies.  I believe it's what you say.

Over at Bluegreen any purchase from the developer gives you some bennies that you can't get resale and somehow peeps are finding them worth the full freight price.  Those don't transfer when sold so I liken it to Westgate but not as brutal.


----------



## Rent_Share

csxjohn said:


> Of course it's not VIP bennies fueling these sales. People are buying them everyday without getting those bennies. I believe it's what you say.
> 
> Over at Bluegreen any purchase from the developer gives you some bennies that you can't get resale and somehow peeps are finding them worth the full freight price. Those don't transfer when sold so I liken it to Westgate but not as brutal.



People have a way of trying to justify their purchase rather than admitting that they may have made an impulse purchase in the neighborhood of 20K


----------



## CO skier

happyhopian said:


> The only thing keeping people buying Wyndham Developer sold points is the VIP system. If they change it and take away the discount, who would ever buy developer points instead of resale? Wyndham - while they can tinker with VIP, simply cannot afford to destroy it by taking away the discounts. Removing the unlimited guest affected a small portion or megas, which is exactly who they were after. Removing the discounts would affect ALL vip owners and render developer purchased points worthless.



Introducing a waitlist would not eliminate the VIP discounts.

Adding a stipulation that waitlist requests could only be filled at full points would not eliminate VIP discounts.  It would only change the dynamics for those trying to cancel and rebook the most prime reservations.

A waitlist would not eliminate the cancel/rebook opportunities.  The sales weasels could continue to sing the benefits of cancel/rebook for 50% discounts; they could even hand out detailed instructions on how to do it, because it would still work for less-than-prime reservations/upgrades at places such as Branson in November and February or for any other cancelled reservation where no one is on the waitlist.  They would let the new VIP owner discover the effects of the waitlist on prime reservation cancel/rebook ... later.

A properly designed waitlist would simply allow those owners who are willing to pay full points (for personal use or rental) the opportunity to get in line for any cancellations of sold-out reservations.  Think of all the hours it will save people from having to manually search for one of these reservations.


----------



## am1

CO skier said:


> A properly designed waitlist would simply allow those owners who are willing to pay full points (for personal use or rental) the opportunity to get in line for any cancellations of sold-out reservations.  Think of all the hours it will save people from having to manually search for one of these reservations.



Why just at full points? I want my discount and upgrade with or without a waitlist.  VIP benefits get a lot of sales done even if some still over pay compared to the benefits.  Others will buy retail no matter what.  I do like that only retail purchases count toward VIP.  When can we see another raise of the minimums to get in to VIP?


----------



## comicbookman

am1 said:


> Why just at full points? I want my discount and upgrade with or without a waitlist.  VIP benefits get a lot of sales done even if some still over pay compared to the benefits.  Others will buy retail no matter what.  I do like that only retail purchases count toward VIP.  When can we see another raise of the minimums to get in to VIP?



Since the "purpose" of the VIP discount is to fill empty rooms, I would allow VIP waitlist owners to get their discount, but only after full price owners on the waitlist have been filled.  Give the VIP owner who is adding their name to the waitlist the option of either keeping their place in line by checking a box that says something like "fill this reservation at full points if needed" or "only fill at discount".  This would preserve the VIP benefit, but not at the expense of regular owners.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> Why just at full points?



If you really want to know, see post #177 where this was discussed.


A waitlist would not benefit Wyndham's bottom line, so I would not be too concerned about the introduction of one in the near future, but it would be a nice benefit if it ever happens.


----------



## am1

comicbookman said:


> Since the "purpose" of the VIP discount is to fill empty rooms, I would allow VIP waitlist owners to get their discount, but only after full price owners on the waitlist have been filled.  Give the VIP owner who is adding their name to the waitlist the option of either keeping their place in line by checking a box that says something like "fill this reservation at full points if needed" or "only fill at discount".  This would preserve the VIP benefit, but not at the expense of regular owners.



It is not at the expense of non-vip owners as it is.  If they want to pay a lot of money upfront for the vip benefits they are able to.  I think a wait list from 13 months - 90 days would work well but not any sooner to check in.  If a wait list comes out I am going to wait list as many rooms as allowed in all of my accounts.  

Also you think Wyndham can manage checking a box if one wants to use full points or not?  Transactions done in accounts are not even time stamped at the moment as well as many other areas where Wyndham is lacking.


----------



## comicbookman

am1 said:


> It is not at the expense of non-vip owners as it is.  If they want to pay a lot of money upfront for the vip benefits they are able to.  I think a wait list from 13 months - 90 days would work well but not any sooner to check in.  If a wait list comes out I am going to wait list as many rooms as allowed in all of my accounts.
> 
> Also you think Wyndham can manage checking a box if one wants to use full points or not?  Transactions done in accounts are not even time stamped at the moment as well as many other areas where Wyndham is lacking.



I agree that current VIP discounts are not at the expense of regular owners.  I just did not express that clearly.  And no I do not think Wyndham capable of creating a page with a checkbox that works.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Thats just not true.
> 
> The VIP discount does not and can not  justify a developer purchase
> 
> If I pay $150000 for a million points (Platinum) Thats $ 7500 a year for the next 20 years  and the maintenance fees today, on a million points is about $5500 a year Thats  $13000 a year
> 
> Even if we assume our buyer can get all his reservations at the discounted price we are talking about just 10 weeks a year.  (ie $1300 a week)  That doesnt justify a purchase of this size
> 
> for the same 10 weeks a year done without the 50% discount Ill need 2 million points  which will cost me about $10000 on the secondary market (leaving my $14000 in a tax free muni bond fund paying 5%)  My mf will be $13000; less the interest on the bonds or $7000 a year.  Do the math and you see that withoyt VIP I can get the same vacations for halh the money a new VIP owner will pay
> 
> No Wyndham does not depend on VIP benefits to make sales.  They depend on high pressure sales fueled by half truths and exaggeration (some say lies and cheating) Themost important thing is that they depend on impulse buying and no research done by their buyers.  I spend more time deciding on, and shopping for a $100  pair of shoes, than most Wyndham buyers do spending thousands on a timeshare.



I love this post and completely agree on all points, including the shoes


----------



## am1

happyhopian said:


> I love this post and completely agree on all points, including the shoes



For most people it is fairly accurate but there is still guest fees, upgrades, hk fees, requesting a view, 11 month arp and a few other benefits.  All that may not be much for some but if one uses their ownership a lot then there is a case to buy retail.  It is cheaper then a second home and much more flexible.  If people are already in with small developer purchase then it tilts even closer to buying. 

I would not be a Wyndham owner if I was not VIP.  Even for personal use.  I would choose to rent from owners.


----------



## Vacationfuntips

ronparise said:


> The VIP discount does not and can not  justify a developer purchase.



I AGREE!!!

Cynthia T.


----------



## bnoble

> The VIP discount does not and can not justify a developer purchase.


There is a simpler argument for why this is true.

All the various VIP perks/benefits are paid for by sales.  The must therefore cost less to provide than sales makes by selling points, else they would not be provided and/or WVO would go out of business.

It is theoretically possible that *some* people get more than they paid for as long as *most* people do not, but even the most optimistic analyses I've seen are, at best, break-even---and that with some pretty favorable assumptions.

I don't think that's an accident.


----------



## am1

Spoke with a higher up but still in owner care who denies that this program exists.  I just have circumstantial proof which apparently not good enough.  Get the song and dance that owners are constantly searching availability online and over the phone.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Spoke with a higher up but still in owner care who denies that this program exists.  I just have circumstantial proof which apparently not good enough.  Get the song and dance that owners are constantly searching availability online and over the phone.



I'm not sure what program you're referring to, but once again I do think something is going on. I am not sure how, but on some sites some users have figured out how to do some form of port blocking or something - for example, an online poker tournament, certain hackers are able to keep someone in the final table from staying connected, moving themselves up while costing the other player their winnings. 

Something like that seems to be happening. Twice - at two very different times - I had my upgrade, it showed up, and I clicked the confirm button - but each time the connection "died", never resolving. From two different computers at different times of the day. And not at Bonnet Creek.

If I get a chance, I'll call in about it tomorrow, but I don't expect much help from Wyndham.


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> I'm not sure what program you're referring to, but once again I do think something is going on. I am not sure how, but on some sites some users have figured out how to do some form of port blocking or something - for example, an online poker tournament, certain hackers are able to keep someone in the final table from staying connected, moving themselves up while costing the other player their winnings.
> 
> Something like that seems to be happening. Twice - at two very different times - I had my upgrade, it showed up, and I clicked the confirm button - but each time the connection "died", never resolving. From two different computers at different times of the day. And not at Bonnet Creek.
> 
> If I get a chance, I'll call in about it tomorrow, but I don't expect much help from Wyndham.



I got out of online poker when all the fish stopped playing.  Feds "banned" it.  But yes it was like the wild west back then and I am sure worse now.  Instead of going all in on a hand you were unsure of just disconnect and you were all in for what was already in the pot.  

Hopefully the hackers do not ruin Wyndham.  If I am searching all day and nothing comes into availability what chance does someone have just looking for a week somewhere?


----------



## Bigrob

So a quick update. It turns out I did get my upgrade last night; it's just that the confirmation screen never returned. That has happened several times, both when upgrading (takes forever or doesn't return) and when canceling. I had to take a bunch of screen shots to showing cancellations that last time when it happened. When I called in the next morning, it turned out the cancellation had taken place, even though when I looked at reservations the night before after it "cancelled" but didn't confirm, it still showed the reservation.

I am not sure what's going on with the website as to why the confirmation screen sometimes isn't coming back, but it is very disconcerting. It also seems to be the case that when the confirmation screen doesn't come back, it also doesn't update in the owner view of reservations. For example, after my reservation must have upgraded, when I reviewed reservations it still showed the unit as not upgraded. Had I known that it actually HAD upgraded, I would have been able to go back and pick up the unit I upgraded FROM.

Has anyone else been suffering this problem frequently as of late? Quite frustrating.


----------



## comicbookman

try using a different browser to view the confirmation page after you have a glitch.  You might also try a different browser for the initial transaction.  I use opera (www.opera.com)  A free lesser known browser that has been around for over a decade.  I don't use it as my primary browser, but I do use it whenever a site is having issues.  It helps me determine if the problem is at my end or theirs.


----------



## Bigrob

comicbookman said:


> try using a different browser to view the confirmation page after you have a glitch.



I am not sure how to do this... when I commit (click the button) to confirm upgrade or cancellation, how would I force the server to respond with a confirmation to a different browser?

I have used firefox, IE, and chrome. All have exhibited the same issue. I have previously used opera and safari as well.


----------



## am1

There are a few different factors at play where I would advise people not to get into renting Wyndham units.  It is not as easy as it once was and is about to get harder.


----------



## travelplus

DeeDibble said:


> I woke up early this morning and called Wyndham to cancel and rebook a reservation I have in south Florida in January 2015.   I cancelled it and asked them to grab it - he saw it and tried to grab it, he said it was there and then just DISAPPEARED!  Before we started he set up the search and I waited until he was ready before I confirmed and hit them cancel button...... I really believe Wyndham is snatching up the inventory!!!!  Anyone got any ideas?  Should I just sit on my computer the next 45 days and keep trying to re- coup this reservation?



  You took a gamble and now are at the other end. As people here have stated only cancel a reservation that you don't mind losing. 

In your case I hope your not out any airfare or additional experiences.


I am really sad for you and hope you get another reservation that meets your criteria.


----------



## Don40

travelplus said:


> You took a gamble and now are at the other end. As people here have stated only cancel a reservation that you don't mind losing.
> 
> In your case I hope your not out any airfare or additional experiences.
> 
> This has caused the usage of more points for me, I use to cancel my reservation and rebook to get the points discount at least on my VIP account.  Now I do not cancel as I am afraid the unit will disappear before I can rebook.  For example we are going to San Fran, the resort is sold out before the 60 day mark, I cannot afford to lose the reservation so I did not attempt to cancel and rebook.
> 
> The loss of this perk is definately beneficial to WYN as your points to reserve a room now increases by 35 to 50 percent from last year.
> 
> This is a significant loss if the system continues to operate this way.


----------



## happyhopian

I have been very suspicious of the upgrade system, but over the last few days I have been able to upgrade a weeks worth of stays for two groups over mardi gras. I only do this when there is suitable inventory available (we have a two bedroom already and want to move to a three). I was able to upgrade from a 1 to a 3 for each night (various lengths piled together) with the vip discount. Ultimately we got an 80% discount for what would have been 250,000 points is now 82,000. I have been successful doing this since we first became members - doesn't always happen, but it can. I will say that I lost one of 10 transactions over the last week, but it was because of a browser issue similar to what rob talked about with screens not showing up. I will say that if you can do it all in 10-20 seconds you're gonna be ok but there is definitely someone who is always looking (bot or paid employee) and you can count on them being gone if you take a 30 seconds to a minute to fill. This happened to me and it leads me to believe that there is a bulk group or more than one who has found an exploit in the system...just my 2 cents.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> I have been very suspicious of the upgrade system, but over the last few days I have been able to upgrade a weeks worth of stays for two groups over mardi gras. I only do this when there is suitable inventory available (we have a two bedroom already and want to move to a three). I was able to upgrade from a 1 to a 3 for each night (various lengths piled together) with the vip discount. Ultimately we got an 80% discount for what would have been 250,000 points is now 82,000. I have been successful doing this since we first became members - doesn't always happen, but it can. I will say that I lost one of 10 transactions over the last week, but it was because of a browser issue similar to what rob talked about with screens not showing up. I will say that if you can do it all in 10-20 seconds you're gonna be ok but there is definitely someone who is always looking (bot or paid employee) and you can count on them being gone if you take a 30 seconds to a minute to fill. This happened to me and it leads me to believe that there is a bulk group or more than one who has found an exploit in the system...just my 2 cents.



Assuming Mardi Gras in New Orleans...This post is just made up nonsense


----------



## am1

The bot searches for and tags the room instantly.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Assuming Mardi Gras in New Orleans...This post is just made up nonsense



Ron I am not sure why you would call one of my posts nonsense other than you think I am talking about booking rooms in NOLA which is not what I mean to convey. The rooms were at BC in ORL. Part of the play is that you have to have 1 to 3 for the upgrade to work and those are not available at all properties. The NOLA properties (for which you are much more of an expert than me) have limited room choices and inventory so that is not likely to happen there.


----------



## spackler

If you say "booked for Mardi Gras" then the common sense location is NOLA.

If someone is excited about "booking rooms for the Indy 500 weekend" they're probably not talking about Myrtle Beach.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron I am not sure why you would call one of my posts nonsense other than you think I am talking about booking rooms in NOLA which is not what I mean to convey. The rooms were at BC in ORL. Part of the play is that you have to have 1 to 3 for the upgrade to work and those are not available at all properties. The NOLA properties (for which you are much more of an expert than me) have limited room choices and inventory so that is not likely to happen there.



I said ...if its New Orleans and yes when someone says Mardi Gras, I assume New Orleans....Sorry, Bad assumption


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> I said ...if its New Orleans and yes when someone says Mardi Gras, I assume New Orleans....Sorry, Bad assumption



I wasn't aware that Mardis Gras was a big celebration in Orlando either. I always thought it was mostly New Orleans/Mobile/Gulf coast.


----------



## bnoble

It's not so much a celebration as it is a destination for folks from the NOLA area who want to escape the craziness, and have kids with the week off of school. Lots of LSU gear and green/purple/gold in the Disney parks that week.


----------



## scootr5

bnoble said:


> It's not so much a celebration as it is a destination for folks from the NOLA area who want to escape the craziness, and have kids with the week off of school. Lots of LSU gear and green/purple/gold in the Disney parks that week.



Interesting. I guess that makes sense. I had said that if Chicago got the Olympics I was going to be anywhere but here for them.


----------



## bnoble

Most of my Bostonian friends are planning to get the heck out of town if they "win."


----------



## Rent_Share

I am old, they hyped the traffic issue so much in 1984, traffic was the smoothest I ever remember, perhaps someone from SLC or Atlanta can chime in on the reality of traffic.


----------



## ronparise

When I lived in Annapolis, a lot of my neighbors  vacationed during "June week" and rented their homes to navy families for the week

Im sure a lot of folks in New Orleans do the same thing for Mardi Gras.. Get away from the madness, and make a few dollars to boot.


----------



## vacationhopeful

ronparise said:


> When I lived in Annapolis, a lot of my neighbors  vacationed during "June week" and rented their homes to navy families for the week
> 
> Im sure a lot of folks in New Orleans do the same thing for Mardi Gras.. Get away from the madness, and make a few dollars to boot.



THAT June week represents the Naval Academy Graduation Week ... a VERY DIFFERENT crowd from the NOLA fests.  

My sister's neighbor (the prior owner) used to rent her 6 bedroom with in ground heated pool to that crowd. It was big dollars. No damage. Little noise other than pool noise (afternoon, evening and most of the night).


----------



## Bigrob

Rent_Share said:


> I am old, they hyped the traffic issue so much in 1984, traffic was the smoothest I ever remember, perhaps someone from SLC or Atlanta can chime in on the reality of traffic.



I went to the Summer Olympics in Atlanta. Traffic was bad and MARTA was jammed to overflowing - to well beyond safety limits - but traffic was bad there even at the best of times anyway.


----------



## Bigrob

*So anyway, back on topic...*

I lost 2 more reservations last night at 2 different resorts. The units just didn't come back into inventory at all. Is anyone else experiencing that, as opposed to the units coming back but getting snatched before you can grab them? These are not at resorts with known maintenance issues impacting availability.

Thanks.


----------



## JimmieJames

Lost a week at Star Island (Mar 7) this morning - it also did not come back into inventory.

Jim


----------



## Rent_Share

So sad when a defect in a reservation system "sold as a feature" disappears at Wyndham's whim


----------



## Beefnot

I've seen that with Shell now. 6 reservations for a specific time period that never popped back up.  Interesting thing is that when I called up, the agent could see availability, but it would not show up online.  I think Wyndham is holding back the inventory intentionally in some way though.  Shady.


----------



## Don40

This is my thoughts exactly Wyndham is slowly taking away this feature.  The cancel rebook game has definately changed, and it seems like only truly excess inventory will be available.  I too have lost reservations that do not show back up no glitch.


----------



## vacationhopeful

It is the economy ... it is improving. Extra Holidays is booking more (more income to Wyndham). And sales is not selling as much (these points discounts and unit upgrades, do cost the Sales people something). And more owners are using their ownership.

Wyndham sort of vanish RESORTS SPECIALS ... I so loved to look, but as I had VIP standing, it was not a major player in my usage of my points or vacation planning. 

So, claim the inventory as they are allowed to do .. we book the good stuff 11-13 months in advance ... expect to pay for those vacations FULL PRICE in point values.


----------



## Beefnot

Beefnot said:


> I've seen that with Shell now. 6 reservations for a specific time period that never popped back up. Interesting thing is that when I called up, the agent could see availability, but it would not show up online. I think Wyndham is holding back the inventory intentionally in some way though. Shady.


 

Let me clarify one thing. I cancelled six reservations back to back in short succession for the same time frame. Not one of them popped back up in online inventory. The Shell representative could see at least one of them in their system (even they do not know how many units are available at a given time), but it was witheld from visibility online.


----------



## Bigrob

Beefnot said:


> Let me clarify one thing. I cancelled six reservations back to back in short succession for the same time frame. Not one of them popped back up in online inventory. The Shell representative could see at least one of them in their system (even they do not know how many units are available at a given time), but it was witheld from visibility online.



This is very interesting. Have you successfully cancelled and rebooked Shell inventory before? I wonder if there is a difference if maybe it has to go back into Shell's system and refresh through Wyndham's system?

I spoke to another owner who confirmed what we had suspected. Apparently at a meeting of owners, she was talking to someone else who had played "mystery shopper" and asked for availability that he knew would be difficult, and the person they spoke to said they had a computer system that would grab inventory and they were "virtually assured" of getting their desired reservation. So the mystery shopper reported this owner/company to Wyndham for the clear ToU violation. I doubt Wyndham will be able to do much as the company apparently manages about half a billion points annually, and they could always move to the next account if one of the accounts does end up getting blocked.


----------



## Beefnot

Bigrob said:


> This is very interesting. Have you successfully cancelled and rebooked Shell inventory before? I wonder if there is a difference if maybe it has to go back into Shell's system and refresh through Wyndham's system?



Yes, I was able to do it the week before. I should mention that there is really no cancel and rebook loophole thing with Shell, this was a different scenario that did involve cancelling and rebooking in order to rebook a reservation with an additional day added on.  In any case, some funny business was going on.  Good thing the family reunion fell through and I didn't end up needing all the rooms.


----------



## comicbookman

Bigrob said:


> This is very interesting. Have you successfully cancelled and rebooked Shell inventory before? I wonder if there is a difference if maybe it has to go back into Shell's system and refresh through Wyndham's system?
> 
> I spoke to another owner who confirmed what we had suspected. Apparently at a meeting of owners, she was talking to someone else who had played "mystery shopper" and asked for availability that he knew would be difficult, and the person they spoke to said they had a computer system that would grab inventory and they were "virtually assured" of getting their desired reservation. So the mystery shopper reported this owner/company to Wyndham for the clear ToU violation. I doubt Wyndham will be able to do much as the company apparently manages about half a billion points annually, and they could always move to the next account if one of the accounts does end up getting blocked.



so someone who spoke to someone who claimed they had a computer program is confirmation in your world?  If wyndham could prove this, then they could ban them from the online system period.  Then make it very hard to manage the half a billion points.  In fact Wyndham could probably get an injunction against said person.  Anybody stupid enough to brag about having a computer system, probably is full of it.


----------



## Bigrob

comicbookman said:


> so someone who spoke to someone who claimed they had a computer program is confirmation in your world?  If wyndham could prove this, then they could ban them from the online system period.  Then make it very hard to manage the half a billion points.  In fact Wyndham could probably get an injunction against said person.  Anybody stupid enough to brag about having a computer system, probably is full of it.



Confirmed was a poor word choice. More appropriate to say, agreed with my observation and recounted what she had heard. I think you missed the point, perhaps on purpose, which is even if Wyndham could identify and prove the use of a computer system (which I personally think is HIGHLY likely, as do many others who regularly book in the Wyndham system), against the major points managers who are both the most likely to have such programs and stand to gain the most through the use of them, they would only be acting against one of many hundreds of platinum accounts under the points manager's control. You have to understand that the big boys (I am certainly not one of them) command many many platinum accounts, so shutting off one would have virtually no impact on them.

And yeah, I do think it is possible that an employee of a large group commanding hundreds of such accounts might make such a statement to engender confidence in a person who wonders if a desired booking might be made. Not to brag about it, but to show why they were confident a reservation could be made.


----------



## Xcalibur

comicbookman said:


> so someone who spoke to someone who claimed they had a computer program is confirmation in your world?  If wyndham could prove this, then they could ban them from the online system period.  Then make it very hard to manage the half a billion points.  In fact Wyndham could probably get an injunction against said person.  Anybody stupid enough to brag about having a computer system, probably is full of it.



So what is confirmation in your world? To visit said facilities and see the program in action?im not sure of the intent in your message.


----------



## ecwinch

Apparently it is impossible for anyone to build any type of automation to grab inventory in real-time.  No amount of money or talent can create automation that can breach the rock-solid security that Wyndham has in place. And any automation that can be created would immediately be detected by Wyndham out-sourced IT dept, and would result in a ban of the user's account. 

So even if you are well-funded/lucky/talented enough to build something, you immediately would be banned.

So any speculation that the points managers would have built something is moot.


----------



## comicbookman

ecwinch said:


> Apparently it is impossible for anyone to build any type of automation to grab inventory in real-time.  No amount of money or talent can create automation that can breach the rock-solid security that Wyndham has in place. And any automation that can be created would immediately be detected by Wyndham out-sourced IT dept, and would result in a ban of the user's account.
> 
> So even if you are well-funded/lucky/talented enough to build something, you immediately would be banned.
> 
> So any speculation that the points managers would have built something is moot.



My point is that it is much more likely that they simply use people.  In order to grab the reservations in real time, the Wyndham system would need to return them to inventory In real time.  We have a ton of evidence that does not always happen.  For  a bot to work  reliably, you would need to breech Wyndham systems.  As for detecting the use of a bot, I could do it with access to Wyndham systems,, and I consider myself of average talent for an IT director.  Even outsourced, Wyndham can afford people far more capable than me.  On the other hand, for these giant point managers, it is trivial to hire a group of people to manually do the cancel rebook.  And yes, I think it very hard to intimidate Wyndham.  If they were easily intimidated,  they would not continue to be So sleazy with their sales tactics.


----------



## am1

People are not out refreshing me and getting these reservations.  It is a computer program.  Period end of story.


----------



## Sandi Bo

am1 said:


> People are not out refreshing me and getting these reservations.  It is a computer program.  Period end of story.



+1 to that!   I understand the behavior of the system, and am confident there are programs running out there. 




			
				vacationhopeful said:
			
		

> So, claim the inventory as they are allowed to do .. we book the good stuff 11-13 months in advance ... expect to pay for those vacations FULL PRICE in point values.



I wish this were possible. I am not seeing rental prices going up. I had one potential renter telling me 'good luck' getting someone to pay what I am asking as they just booked president's week at Bonnet Creek in a 2 BR Presidential unit for $370 for 7 nights.  That's 308,000 points, COST would be over $2000. I haven't see that on eBay, but I've seen some pretty cheap stuff.

Maybe Wyndham has something to do with what's going on, but I'm more inclined to think it's a combo of big points managers and having programs to search for the optimal rentals.  Perhaps stripping accounts of points -- what is the cost of credit pooling future points, stripping the account, and then selling it?  

Talking to Wyndham didn't give me warm fuzzies.  When the conversation starts with surprise that I am having issues with the website (that crawls at time), talking about automated programs and asking what they do to monitor and prevent such activities seemed silly at best.


----------



## comicbookman

am1 said:


> People are not out refreshing me and getting these reservations.  It is a computer program.  Period end of story.



Yes having a bot look for optimal bookings is probable.  I am saying that it is unlikely they are running bots that cancel rebook.  Bots that search are easy.  But due to the unpredictable nature of Wyndham's system (which may be why we never got voyager) a cancel rebook bot would have a hard time being reliable. The bot cannot book any faster than the Wyndham system responds.  Multiple people working together using multiple accounts, could easily "out refresh you".  Cheaper, easier and probably much more reliable.


----------



## jebloomquist

*Force action by affecting sales*

There is only one place that I can see that we, as owners, can get Wyndham to take some real action to determine if there is a bot or some other automated process sucking up availability. But, I will get back to that later.

Right now, Wyndham really could care less if there is a bot. Wyndham collects the maintenance fees regardless of the confusion surrounding reservations. If there is one person or one hundred persons in line for a room, Wyndham has already been paid. Whether the final rental price is $1 or $1,000, Wyndham is not part of the transaction.

So, is there a way for owners to force some action by Wyndham to truly investigate the potential abuse of the reservation system and to then institute action to correct it?  I don’t know, but if there is, it has to be something that impacts Wyndham sales. I ask this as an open question to anyone with ideas and/or experience using legal means to collect enough anecdotal data to create a class action suit showing potential damages received by owners as a result of a “faulty” reservation system, or some other similar type action by us, the owners. 

One consequence to Wyndham, until the system “runs better”, might be to legally require Wyndham to specify in every sales presentation that actually getting a reservation is very limited, due to the actions of mega-renters and potentially bots on the reservation system. Regardless of how loudly we yell, if it doesn’t result in a decrease in new sales, Wyndham will offer only a deaf ear.

Are there owners out there who are willing to form a group to brainstorm ideas of how to create a force sufficient to legally affect Wyndham sales? If you are reading this, are you willing to join? What ideas do you have?

Jim


----------



## ronparise

comicbookman said:


> Yes having a bot look for optimal bookings is probable.  I am saying that it is unlikely they are running bots that cancel rebook.  Bots that search are easy.  But due to the unpredictable nature of Wyndham's system (which may be why we never got voyager) a cancel rebook bot would have a hard time being reliable. The bot cannot book any faster than the Wyndham system responds.  Multiple people working together using multiple accounts, could easily "out refresh you".  Cheaper, easier and probably much more reliable.



Im sure you are right...there are no bots that cancel and re book...but I would bet that there are bots  that search and book

What our hypothetical  bot builder is trying to accomplish  has nothing to do with  canceling a reservation he already has.  What the bot would be designed to do  is to make sure he doesnt lose something to me or you when he cancels it.  His bot will grab anything he cancels. But more than that (and our complaint) is that his bot will grab anything that we cancel

To Jim's point Wyndham doesnt care....I think they do. It may not be the money that they care about, as Jim says they are not really a part of any of these transactions, Why should they care?  I think they care because they want and need a happy owner base to continue to sell this stuff, They dont want to deal with a gang of unhappy owners that  can never find any availability for their discounts within 60 days.  

Im sure that they dont care that we are having trouble gaming the system for our own selfish purposes (rental profits) .  Their concern is that the promise of 50% discounts for the Platinum owner that uses this stuff for his own vacations, will turn out to be an empty promise and affect sales.


----------



## jebloomquist

ronparise said:


> .  Their concern is that the promise of 50% discounts for the Platinum owner that uses this stuff for his own vacations, will turn out to be an empty promise and affect sales.



Wyndham will only care when sales decline. But, this will only happen if there is an educated consumer. 

Right now it is still the sheep to the slaughter. First time buyers don't have a clue about reservation issues. They are told that every Wyndham resort is there just waiting for them to make a reservation anytime. You want Mardi Gras, of course it's there. You want Disney at Bonnet Creek for Christmas break, of course it's there. It is only after the purchase is finalized and the new account is finally available to the new owner that reality begins to appear.

Of course, Wyndham wants repeat buyers, but an owner with only a small biennial contract still hasn't used the reservation system enough to know much. They are still raw meat to the sales personnel. 

Nothing will change as long as owners just complain. If we can't figure out, as a group, something to do beyond complaining, progress will come very slowly.

Jim


----------



## Ron2

Wyndham will tell you that the points management companies are not authorized but as long as owners turn over their accounts to them, there is nothing Wyndham can do about it. This is total BS! Wyndham depends on them to send new potential buyers to the resorts. This is why they have done nothing to curb the use of bots and the extension of VIP benefits to resale contracts for VIP owners. With points managers handling hundreds of contracts and multi-millions of points, you would have to be a fool to think they could do it without an automated system. They are in it to make money so hiring enough people to monitor the reservation system would not be cost effective.


----------



## mistalong

Some of you are just being beaten to the punch.  How do I know?  We had a big family trip and I needed 8 rooms to a popular destination. It was my son and nephews job to start at the opening bell and finish at the closing bell to book as many rooms as they could to accommodate of family.  They succeeded.  It took them about a week, but it was done.

So can you imagine how many of these management companies pay people to do the same thing?


----------



## CO skier

jebloomquist said:


> Nothing will change as long as owners just complain. If we can't figure out, as a group, something to do beyond complaining, progress will come very slowly.



There does not seem to be a "bot problem" in the WorldMark system.

Then again, WorldMark offers a "waitlist bot" to all owners for free.

Maybe if enough Club Wyndham owners complain, Wyndham will duplicate the WM waitlist in the Club Wyndham system to level the bot playing field, if there is such a thing.


----------



## comicbookman

mistalong said:


> Some of you are just being beaten to the punch.  How do I know?  We had a big family trip and I needed 8 rooms to a popular destination. It was my son and nephews job to start at the opening bell and finish at the closing bell to book as many rooms as they could to accommodate of family.  They succeeded.  It took them about a week, but it was done.
> 
> So can you imagine how many of these management companies pay people to do the same thing?



exactly the point I was making.  Given the uneven responses from the Wyndham online system, this seems to be the most likely answer.  Hiring a few people to manually work the system is far cheaper than hiring a programmer.


----------



## Beefnot

comicbookman said:


> exactly the point I was making. Given the uneven responses from the Wyndham online system, this seems to be the most likely answer. Hiring a few people to manually work the system is far cheaper than hiring a programmer.


 
Whether it is cheaper depends on how much it costs to hire the programmer against how much and how long one is hiring paid monkeys.  I might be willing to pay a programmer $20k once to develop a bot, than pay 2 people $7k each per year into perpetuity to do the same thing.


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## tschwa2

but its not as though a bot that works today will work forever.  Paying $20,000 for something that Wyndham or another company with another programmer can disable or get around in 1-6 months wouldn't be a good investment either.  The monkeys can be let go the same day that strategy stops working.


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## mistalong

IMO .. I believe the bot is more of a conspiracy theory.  Between the captcha screen and the obvious throttling Wyndham applies to accounts, I believe the only bot is Wyndhams.


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## ecwinch

comicbookman said:


> exactly the point I was making.  Given the uneven responses from the Wyndham online system, this seems to be the most likely answer.  Hiring a few people to manually work the system is far cheaper than hiring a programmer.



Only in the short run.

The on-line reservation system operates approximately 17 hrs a day, 7 days a week. Let's assume a staff of 10 people managing the searches - based on the reports here that seems like a reasonable start pt. That is 119 hrs a week times 10. 1190 hrs of labor a week, or ~62,000 hrs a year.

Even if you got Chinese convict labor at $2 a hr, that is  ~$124k a year in operating costs. After a year or so, any reasonable business would find a way to drive those costs out. More so if your labor cost is $5 hr or higher.

And those numbers do not include overhead for managing the search team, coordinating resorts and dates that inventory is needed for, etc.  Given the number of pts that pts managers are reported to manage, you have to realize they have tremendous profit incentive to automate. 

Just consider how long it took two people looking full-time for just one resort and one time period. Then expand that to the scale the pts managers operate on.


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## comicbookman

ecwinch said:


> Only in the short run.
> 
> The on-line reservation system operates approximately 17 hrs a day, 7 days a week. Let's assume a staff of 10 people managing the searches - based on the reports here that seems like a reasonable start pt. That is 119 hrs a week times 10. 1190 hrs of labor a week, or ~62,000 hrs a year.
> 
> Even if you got Chinese convict labor at $2 a hr, that is  ~$124k a year in operating costs. After a year or so, any reasonable business would find a way to drive those costs out. More so if your labor cost is $5 hr or higher.
> 
> And those numbers do not include overhead for managing the search team, coordinating resorts and dates that inventory is needed for, etc.  Given the number of pts that pts managers are reported to manage, you have to realize they have tremendous profit incentive to automate.



minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. coordinating resorts and dates needs to be done no matter how you make the reservations, that requires humans. you can use a bot for some reservations, but cancel rebook is when you really need humans.  so even with a bot, you still have to pay humans.  Also, with the unpredictability of Wyndhams site behavior, bots would not necessarily be faster or more successful grabbing reservations.  And you still risk having your online privileges suspended.

I don't think Wyndham views mega renters as a sales tool.  If they did, then they would have a more aggressive, and appealing, Extra holidays program.  If you look at renting as a sales tool, then Extra holidays is a way to make a profit on sales visits, since Wyndham gets a fee regardless of whether the renter buys or not.  So I don't think Wyndham is afraid of pissing them off.

I think the reason Voyager was not deployed, is it would have given so much online flexibility and predictability to owners, that a bot would be a much better proposition for mega renters.


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## mistalong

At the same people bots/staff aren't always looking.  I would assume that they'd only look by request.

But when you factor in the following:
-Megarenters
-Extra Holidays
-Wyndham Renters
-Shell Renters
-The New Club Pass

We have to be realistic.  There's only so many rooms.  4th of July weekend in New Orleans is booked solid before the Stand Reservation window even opens (thanks Ron, LOL).

I have yet to even see even 1 day open at Harbortown Point in California.  So lets calculate the estimated number of members that user their points, mind you the resell boom over the past few years, and the number of rooms per resort, and WHERE you're trying to book.


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## vacationhopeful

mistalong said:


> ...I have yet to even see even 1 day open at Harbortown Point in California.  .....



Actually, saw online and booked a week in 2014 at Harbortown Point in Sept ... my sister lives very near there and I was think of doing a visit ... I cancelled before the 15 day rule ... it was gone inside of 5 minutes.


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## ronparise

mistalong said:


> At the same people bots/staff aren't always looking.  I would assume that they'd only look by request.
> 
> But when you factor in the following:
> -Megarenters
> -Extra Holidays
> -Wyndham Renters
> -Shell Renters
> -The New Club Pass
> 
> We have to be realistic.  There's only so many rooms.  4th of July weekend in New Orleans is booked solid before the Stand Reservation window even opens (thanks Ron, LOL).
> 
> I have yet to even see even 1 day open at Harbortown Point in California.  So lets calculate the estimated number of members that user their points, mind you the resell boom over the past few years, and the number of rooms per resort, and WHERE you're trying to book.



I dont use many Wyndham points to reserve 4th of July in New Orleans at 13 months, because all my La belle Maison and CWA points go to Mardi Gras. and at 10 months there isnt much left. I got a few this year but not many.  And I dont use Worldmark Credits either, because at 13 months you have to do 7 days, and it doesnt make sense to pay for 7 days when I can only rent 3. I have been able however to pick up a couple of Worldmark reservations inside the 10 month window. Dont ask me why they were available, given Worldmarks wait list...but they were. 

None of this is to say however that I dont do well on the 4th of July. I do 
I own 14 Avenue Plaza floating weeks that give me 56 weekend reservations, most of which go to 4th of July

I work with 3 of the points managers and they dont have a bot to do their work for them and neither do I for the reservations I make. I have no doubt that some owners have their own bots, but I dont think its a big deal. I think they turn it on at specific  resorts and not all the time.  This year I cancelled and rebooked  a bunch of reservations and my points managers did also, and I can count the number we lost on one hand. I think that we are working where the bots arent


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## am1

Sandi Bo said:


> Talking to Wyndham didn't give me warm fuzzies.  When the conversation starts with surprise that I am having issues with the website (that crawls at time), talking about automated programs and asking what they do to monitor and prevent such activities seemed silly at best.



Plus a few hundred for that.  They have some great agents and they have others while very nice and good at a lot of things do not see the big picture of things.  Just what they are trained to do.


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## bnoble

Folks, it doesn't matter if it is a bot or people---even if the bot behaves differently than lots of people, Wyndham putting in detection schemes would just cause a hypothetical bot owner to re-write the bot to look more like a person constantly refreshing.  Then, just use several of those across the accounts that you control.  You're still going to win more often than not.

The only thing that matters is that cancel/rebook is much less sure than it used to be, and will probably be even less reliable going forward.



> it seems like only truly excess inventory will be available.


I have to admit, I have a hard time feeling bad about this.


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## ecwinch

I find it very ironic that someone in the IT industry seems to marginalize the value or potential of automation in this situation.

Automation only needs to make someone more efficient than the rest of the crowd - either in terms of speed (reducing mouse clicks) or coverage (i.e. running 17 hrs a day/7 days a week). 

It's like adage "You don’t have to run faster than the bear to get away. You just have to run faster than the guy next to you."


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## Xcalibur

the reality is that the bots or megarenters are supplying fresh meat to wyndham sales.  if even a small percentage of those renters buy from wyndham... it is a win for wyndham.  not likely i know but wyndham sales can be slick...


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## tschwa2

Owner occupancy is also a boon Wyndham.  I've seen the statistics that they sell to a higher percentage of current owners and they sell higher $ contracts to current owners than they do to Fresh Meat.


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## cotraveller

comicbookman said:


> I think the reason Voyager was not deployed, is it would have given so much online flexibility and predictability to owners, that a bot would be a much better proposition for mega renters.



Voyager was also going to be used for the WorldMark reservation system.  What I heard was that it was so buggy and crashed so often that deploying it would have been a disaster.  The last estimate I heard was maybe it would be ready in 2016.


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## Ron2

CO skier said:


> There does not seem to be a "bot problem" in the WorldMark system.
> 
> Then again, WorldMark offers a "waitlist bot" to all owners for free.
> 
> Maybe if enough Club Wyndham owners complain, Wyndham will duplicate the WM waitlist in the Club Wyndham system to level the bot playing field, if there is such a thing.



A wait list may just be what we end up with. When you ask Wyndham Owner Care about cancel/rebook they say the wait list is on its way and will eliminate cancel/rebook. They have been saying this for quite some time so if or when it becomes reality is anybody’s guess. In principle a wait list sounds like a more fair way to handle reservations during the discount period and if no one on the wait list wants it at full point value then it should be available to anyone at discount. In reality a wait list may create more problems than it fixes.


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