# VIP erosion question



## Xcalibur (Oct 3, 2013)

Hi,

I've read time and time again about how Wyndham has eroded the various VIP privileges.  For those of you who have been around, could you detail the history?  i'm curious... is it really *that* bad?

thanks!


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## ronparise (Oct 3, 2013)

Xcalibur said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've read time and time again about how Wyndham has eroded the various VIP privileges.  For those of you who have been around, could you detail the history?  i'm curious... is it really *that* bad?
> 
> thanks!



I dont think its that bad, but I wasnt around back in the day. One mega owner I know told me he used to be able to make a lot of money with his points...not so much any more.

The erosion, I think has been done to discourage rentals. The changes havent really affected the guy that uses his points for his and his families vacations. At least thats the way I see it, but of course I wasnt around "back in the day"

The major benefits of being a VIP are the discounts and upgrades...These havent changed

The changes I think can be grouped in three categories
1) changes in how you can become VIP
2) changes that affect all owners, not just VIP
3) actual reductions in VIP benefits, 

It used to be easier and cheaper to become a VIP. There were more ways to do it that didnt require a large purchase of developer points. 1) PIC weeks were unlimited 2) some converted fixed weeks converted to VIP eligible points

Since Ive been involved with Wyndham,(almost 3 years)  They have upped the points requirements to become VIP, but the old VIPs were grandfathered in.. 

Now PIC weeks are limited to two, so the maximum number of VIP points you can get that way is 508000 which puts Platinum out of reach and Gold expensive.  and there are only a few weeks in the system that can be converted to VIP...good luck finding them.

There have been changes that affected all owners, but because VIP owners have more points and often do rentals, these changes affected them more

The big change was the owner to owner transfer of points.  This practice was stopped.   

Also guest confirmations cost a lot more now and I think VIPs got an unlimited number free

also RCI exchanges arent nearly as cheap as they once were

also the realignment of use years stopped the practice of cancelling and rolling forward points so they never expire.


As to the elimination of VIP benefits or the increase in cost for VIP benefits, I dont know of any except I dont  think VIPs get  USA Today delivered to their door any more.  

Id also be interested to hear what VIPs that have been around a while see.


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## lcml11 (Oct 3, 2013)

ronparise said:


> I dont think its that bad, but I wasnt around back in the day. One mega owner I know told me he used to be able to make a lot of money with his points...not so much any more.
> 
> The erosion, I think has been done to discourage rentals. The changes havent really affected the guy that uses his points for his and his families vacations. At least thats the way I see it, but of course I wasnt around "back in the day"
> 
> ...



As of September 20, the newspapers were still there.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 3, 2013)

There have been some "enhancements" which have made VIP issues more than annoying include:
Limiting Guest Certificates was NOT REALLY okay - but to take the cost from $29 to $129 was *extreme* as it was all a benefit to Wyndham's bottom line. Remember, the original $29 WAS for the call in (only available to add was to call it in) and then Wyndham raised the cost to $49 (when they went to the enhancement by doing it online) -- you could say, "OK, got something for my money".* BUT 2 months later, to raise the GC fee Again "TO $99 ONLINE or $129 CALL IN"??? *

Limiting PIC weeks to 2 verses 4 - yes, there were persons who had set up 5 or 7 or 9 VIP accounts to run rental business (using South African timeshares as their PICs) ... might not have to their liking - but they could have JUST made it so ONLY US BASED timeshares could be PIC'ed.

Increasing the VIP points levels - called point inflation for the points needed to book the newer resorts. This ONLY benefits marketing - as they pull out the point charts for the older resorts while sitting in and selling the NEW shiny resort which cost 3X the points shown on the older resorts. And it also makes the NEWER resorts MFs per 1,000 point cost seem lower - at first. (and the is WHY Seawatch is the hardest resort in Myrtle Beach to book in the summer -- costs LESS points. And that is why the owners of Seawatch get unhappy to be paying MORE in MFs than OB Tower 4 owners who are booking the Seawatch Resort during the first 3 minutes of the 13 ARP window).

Sales has also deluited the VALUE of RARP for VIP Gold & Platinum -- giving multiple resort ARP to owners at resorts in the NOT YET OPEN phase. That's right - deeds with ARP at 2 different resorts. That is WHAT RARP is supposed to be valued for.

No unit size or season upgrades in RCI exchanges - a REAL benefit that most likely was NOT used often. Now, the 14 day upgrades with Platinum RCI membership is NOT even available for the Wyndham Owners -- much less the VIP owners. And Platinum RCI SHOULD have been INCLUDED totally with the RCI GOLD and Platinum ownerships.

The VIP Presidential Reserve classification - how has that been working out for Wyndham? :hysterical:

The mythical WAITLIST development has ONLY turned into, the 60 day out unit cancellations with 90% of the inventory going to EXTRA VACATIONS - not VIP upgraded units. Or to owners waiting and hoping for a last shot at dream vacations.... PLEASE, I still remember the OLD DAYS of signing onto the Wyndham online system at 8AM to LOOK for the prior days cancelled inventory -- to SCORE a great week. I had a chance!! NOW, I have nothing -- Extra Vacations is renting units to walkup NON-OWNERS ahead of the owners paying their MFs --- and for LESS than the MFs cost the owners!

Just follow the green backs - owners pay MFs to run the resorts and Wyndham writes the rules (and computer system) to snag the FREE inventory to rent to John Q. Public. Just WHERE is the WAITLIST --- I bet it is in the PERMENTALITY to be DEVELOPED pile.


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## Explorer7 (Oct 3, 2013)

Though not a VIP change, so far since I have been a VIP the value of my ownership sky rocketed when Wyndham made units available "immediately" when a reservation gets cancelled. I am taking vacations in incredible units that I never would have had if I had to continue to wait until the next morning for cancelled inventory to show up.

Still not a VIP exclusive change but at first I did not like the 15 day cancelation window change until I started finding incredible units and upgrades appearing during the 15 to 20 day check in window.

I do wish I could share points between other owners and though it's not that big a deal to me I don't like the overlapping reservation restriction.


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## Free2Roam (Oct 3, 2013)

Explorer7 said:


> I don't like the overlapping reservation restriction.



Agreed....


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## joestein (Oct 4, 2013)

Lets not forget that as soon as they banned owner to owner point transfers, they raised the price of extra points to $10/1000 from $7/1000.

My SIL and brother both have Wyndham accounts, we used to be able to help each other out, but not anymore.


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

Back to the ops *VIP erosion question*   "is it really *that* bad?"


Ive read through the several posts and its seems  that it is more difficult to become a VIP, but once there the VIP benefits havent changed at all.

No doubt some things have changed, but these changes have applied to all owners not just VIP owners. 

If I answer the OPs question based on what I read here, Id say The erosion of VIP benefits is not really that bad.


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## Explorer7 (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Back to the ops *VIP erosion question*   "is it really *that* bad?"
> 
> 
> Ive read through the several posts and its seems  that it is more difficult to become a VIP, but once there the VIP benefits havent changed at all.
> ...


 I agree with Ron. Sticking specifically to the OP's question regarding VIP benefits, my VIP benifits have not eroded since 2008 when I purchased them. The only "VIP" policy change I can think of is the point level increase to qualify for Silver and Gold VIP. Since I was grandfathered in I believe the increase was not a negative to me as it potentially means I have fewer VIP's to compete with for discounts/upgrades moving forward.


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## comicbookman (Oct 4, 2013)

I would say the biggest VIP only erosion is the availability of early check in, dedicated check in(or check in line priority)  and dedicated VC's.  These are touted as "just like a hotel VIP", but there is no longer dedicated VC's or separate check in and most resorts have early check in only sporadically (and it is not limited to VIP's).  The consistent availability of early check in is the biggest loss, but I consider all of them relatively minor.


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

comicbookman said:


> I would say the biggest VIP only erosion is the availability of early check in, dedicated check in(or check in line priority)  and dedicated VC's.  These are touted as "just like a hotel VIP", but there is no longer dedicated VC's or separate check in and most resorts have early check in only sporadically (and it is not limited to VIP's).  The consistent availability of early check in is the biggest loss, but I consider all of them relatively minor.



Regarding the dedicated VC's.  I do have a different phone number to use for my VIP account. When I asked about it I was told that its the same group of VCs that answer the phone, but different queues. Presumably a VIP goes to the front of the line...The only time it makes a difference is when you are calling in to make an ARP reservation right at 13 months...or at the 10 month mark when you are competing with everyone else

Early check in is not an issue for me...Im always running late. If I really need an early check in, I reserve a day early.  Being able to waste a days worth of points is a benefit of owning lots of points...not VIP


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## lcml11 (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Regarding the dedicated VC's.  I do have a different phone number to use for my VIP account. When I asked about it I was told that its the same group of VCs that answer the phone, but different queues. Presumably a VIP goes to the front of the line...The only time it makes a difference is when you are calling in to make an ARP reservation right at 13 months...or at the 10 month mark when you are competing with everyone else
> 
> Early check in is not an issue for me...Im always running late. If I really need an early check in, I reserve a day early.  Being able to waste a days worth of points is a benefit of owning lots of points...not VIP



A number of days ago I tired to use the VIP line and was told it is gone now and is just the regular call center.  They did not release the number to me.  I do not have the old number so I cannot call it to see if it answers.  The rep was clear there is no VIP preference on this point.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 4, 2013)

VIP line I think is 888-884-4321

I wasn't aware of a change.  But I do know that the online system is so much better, it really did cause Wyndham to cut down on some employees. We rarely call anymore and had to call for upgrades.

Benefits have eroded for Platinum.  Unlimited GC's was great for Platinum, and we bought it based on that fact.  I still have the contracts and a DVD explaining the benefits of the program, all of which say unlimited guest certificates.  I kept everything from the sale.  We converted our Bali Hai weeks, which apparently Wyndham will no longer do.


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> A number of days ago I tired to use the VIP line and was told it is gone now and is just the regular call center.  They did not release the number to me.  I do not have the old number so I cannot call it to see if it answers.  The rep was clear there is no VIP preference on this point.



I just called my VIP number and was told that in busy times, using that number will get me through quicker and also it goes to a group of more experienced reps...pretty much the same think I was told once before. ...And no Im not going to post the number....There are a couple of days a years when I want less competition getting to a VC


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

rickandcindy23 said:


> VIP line I think is 888-884-4321
> 
> I wasn't aware of a change.  But I do know that the online system is so much better, it really did cause Wyndham to cut down on some employees. We rarely call anymore and had to call for upgrades.
> 
> Benefits have eroded for Platinum.  Unlimited GC's was great for Platinum, and we bought it based on that fact.  I still have the contracts and a DVD explaining the benefits of the program, all of which say unlimited guest certificates.  I kept everything from the sale.  We converted our Bali Hai weeks, which apparently Wyndham will no longer do.



Damn Cindy...now everyone has that number..even my old friend LCML11. But you are right, except for ARP, its easier and faster to go online...It pretty much no big deal

The unlimited Guest certs would be a big deal for me and you because we own a ton of points over and above the million qualifying VIP points, and we rent out most of them.  But for the average Platinum owner its probably not that big a deal. Im thinking of the guy with just over a million qualifying points and 3 million altogether that uses most of them himself.   He gets 30 guest confirms which would be  enough for over 2 million points even if they were used for all short stay reservations

I think most of the changes we complain about were designed to curtail the mega renters. And they just dont have much effect on the regular owner


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## tug1873 (Oct 4, 2013)

I have to agree with Ron the VIP benefits changes only hurt people who rent a lot. 

I also would not be surprised if the ability to cancel and re-book the same room disappeared soon. It's a nice feature for VIP's but the purpose of the discount is to fill rooms that would otherwise go empty and thus burning those points. I think that really is a win win for everyone empty rooms is not good for anyone.

Booking a room early and the canceling it and re-booking it for less points actually hurts the whole system if that happens to much.  

The same thing can be said for split years and being able to roll points ahead. It makes sense that they needed to balance the system. That is why they took that away. Yes it changes things but it also makes sense.

I think there is money to be made renting but the biggest value in wyndham is using it for yourself.  

VIP is really just a marketing ploy of wyndham to sell more developer points.  Not allowing resale points to take advantage of it means it will probably have even less value over time. If they ever favored VIP too much it would make us who have resale  pretty angry and it would probably cause a lot legal headaches for wyndham as well.


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## csxjohn (Oct 4, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> ...I also would not be surprised if the ability to cancel and re-book the same room disappeared soon. It's a nice feature for VIP's but the purpose of the discount is to fill rooms that would otherwise go empty and thus burning those points. I think that really is a win win for everyone empty rooms is not good for anyone.
> 
> ...



Booking early, canceling, and re booking actually helps because that member now has points available to book rooms that might otherwise go empty if they didn't have those extra points to use.  Unless I'm missing something, and that's a real possibility.


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## lcml11 (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Damn Cindy...now everyone has that number..even my old friend LCML11. But you are right, except for ARP, its easier and faster to go online...It pretty much no big deal
> 
> The unlimited Guest certs would be a big deal for me and you because we own a ton of points over and above the million qualifying VIP points, and we rent out most of them.  But for the average Platinum owner its probably not that big a deal. Im thinking of the guy with just over a million qualifying points and 3 million altogether that uses most of them himself.   He gets 30 guest confirms which would be  enough for over 2 million points even if they were used for all short stay reservations
> 
> I think most of the changes we complain about were designed to curtail the mega renters. And they just dont have much effect on the regular owner



No worry Ron, I do not use ARP or RARP so I do not compete with you.  Heck, I do not even want to go to your favorate resorts.


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## comicbookman (Oct 4, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> I have to agree with Ron the VIP benefits changes only hurt people who rent a lot......VIP is really just a marketing ploy of wyndham to sell more developer points.  Not allowing resale points to take advantage of it means it will probably have even less value over time. If they ever favored VIP too much it would make us who have resale  pretty angry and it would probably cause a lot legal headaches for wyndham as well.



I too think the changes were directed at renters.  As to adding or deleting VIP benefits causing Wyndham legal headaches with resale owners, I don't see how.  It really is no different from an airline frequent flyer program that exempts discounted stays from counting.  The contract is between the VIP owner and the developer.


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## tug1873 (Oct 4, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> Booking early, canceling, and re booking actually helps because that member now has points available to book rooms that might otherwise go empty if they didn't have those extra points to use.  Unless I'm missing something, and that's a real possibility.



This actually hurts non vip members because I can't do that and takes away bookings from me because I am not VIP even thought I have enough points to qualify.

When you book early that inventory is no longer available for me to book. I would have booked and used the higher points. More points means more money in the system for everything including Maintenance fees.

Vip owners have a loophole in where they can book it the morning it's first available and then a few weeks before cancel it and rebook right away for a lot less points. That is why it hurts the system. If they cancel it and that rooms ends up on a waiting list or they have to wait 24 hours they most likely will not do it. When too many people do this and they will because they can wyndham will have no choice but to end it since it will cost them too much or becomes a liability to them


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## tug1873 (Oct 4, 2013)

comicbookman said:


> I too think the changes were directed at renters.  As to adding or deleting VIP benefits causing Wyndham legal headaches with resale owners, I don't see how.  It really is no different from an airline frequent flyer program that exempts discounted stays from counting.  The contract is between the VIP owner and the developer.



It isn't a legal problem because it really is just like a frequent flyer program and wyndham pays for the cost of it. They can do this because they charge so much when you buy from them.. Once you realize that VIP is just because you overpaid it is not really an issue anymore


The problem becomes when they do something that alters the system and it doesn't cost them real money.  They will never offer something that is real value to most people based on how things are setup.  Imagine if VIP gave you ARP at every resort system wide at 13 months. It wouldn't take long before someone sued them over that.

As far as I know wyndham points are in a trust so they have to fairly represent all owners legally including resale point owners.


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## comicbookman (Oct 4, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> This actually hurts non vip members because I can't do that and takes away bookings from me because I am not VIP even thought I have enough points to qualify.
> 
> When you book early that inventory is no longer available for me to book. I would have booked and used the higher points. More points means more money in the system for everything including Maintenance fees.
> 
> Vip owners have a loophole in where they can book it the morning it's first available and then a few weeks before cancel it and rebook right away. That is why it hurts the system. If they cancel it and that rooms ends up on a waiting list or they have to wait 24 hours they most likely will not do it. When too many people do this and they will because they can wyndham will have no choice but to end it since it will cost them too much or becomes a liability to them



I have on occasion used this trick to and saved a lot of points.  That being said I agree that it is not good for the system.  A waitlist would make this much harder to pull off.  I believe the scrapped voyager reservation system was supposed to have a way to prevent this as well.


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## tug1873 (Oct 4, 2013)

comicbookman said:


> I have on occasion used this trick to and saved a lot of points.  That being said I agree that it is not good for the system.  A waitlist would make this much harder to pull off.  I believe the scrapped voyager reservation system was supposed to have a way to prevent this as well.



The best would be no discount for at least 24 hours on booking the same room type at the chosen resort along with a waitlist for others. This would make it pretty tough to cancel and rebook the prior to the discount unless there was lots of rooms available.

So if you booked a 2 bedroom you have to book a one bedroom or 3 bedroom or else you need to wait 24 hours.  Nothing wrong with that and pretty easy to implement.


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> No worry Ron, I do not use ARP or RARP so I do not compete with you.  Heck, I do not even want to go to your favorate resorts.



Come on

Maybe we can go to  Mardi Gras and meet up with Paco


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## lcml11 (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Come on
> 
> Maybe we can go to  Mardi Gras and meet up with Paco



Not a bad idea, however, I have that square filled.  I was stationed in the state at one point.


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## pacodemountainside (Oct 4, 2013)

*Kendra Bowers Lawsuit  Against Wyndham*

Following is  a post from several Kendra made circa 2008. You can do search here and Wyndham Web Site for  more  gory details.

She  was  the Queen of Wyndham renters having some 16 million points even eclipsing Ron.

She settled out of Court and signed non-disclosure agreement so no one  knows what Wyndham paid to silence her.

Was bummed out as I had planned on attending  trial in Denver District Court!

*Kendra Lawsuit*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As many of you know I am preparing a personal lawsuit again Wyndham Vacation Ownership. I had hoped to file it on 10/09/08 because I liked the idea of a ‘count down’ date. But, silly me, the count down, as it turns out – was against us, as Wyndham VO owners!!! A date I am sure we can all remember.

Instead of filing what I had ready and prepared, I decided to take an extra few days and ‘expand’ the scope of my Complaint. As of 10/09/08 it was a very personal lawsuit but since then I have decided to add a section about Wyndham policy in general as it relates to the Deteriorating Benefits of all Wyndham owners – and us ‘mega owners/renters’ in particular.

By my incorporating these issues into my lawsuit, there should be a very good likelihood that Wyndham will have to address them in my legal right to request depositions, interrogatives and my demand for them to produce documentation. They can avoid our requests and postings that we discuss among ourselves but they CANNOT ignore a court order indefinitely. And YES - I am prepared for a VERY LONG HAUL/WAR - they Will Not Out Wait Me and they can't cost me more than I've already paid (i.e. everything I owned). I have nothing more I can lose (my Faith is not at stake), all the time in the world to fight them and free legal advice!!!! I guess they could hope that I die and go home to Dad. To date my Complaint is over 30 pages long and has +150 'points/paragraphs/whatever those numbered things are called'.

To this end – would you please review my list below and edit as needed. I specifically want to know if what I have detailed below is accurate and WHEN these events occurred (and/or were rescinded). For reasons I can't understand (she says with tongue in cheek) - Wyndham stopped answering my emails weeks/months ago when I asked for clarification on these and other issues.

Overall it seems that these DETERORATING BENEFITS began shortly after Deanne Gabel became Senior Vice President of Owner Services in early/mid 2006 (and who has recently added “FairShare Plus Plan Manager” to her title). Because I still like Deanne personally (and Shearon Roach-Hurst, Jodie Davidson, Elaine Havock and Teresa Havock - and maybe Matthew Elquist to whom I've spoken twice - and maybe Scott Richards but I've never met nor had any 'dealings' with him yet - I just know that he replaced Jodie Davidson when she got promoted) and respect them as loyal Wyndham employees, I choose to believe that they are being coerced by Wynfield into being their 'Hatch People' against their personal (not professional) choice. I could (and very well might) be wrong - but that it what I choose to believe. With that said - there are true 'slim balls' out there that I won't discuss!!!


Phase One – AFTER the May 11, 2006 VOA meeting in Las Vegas, NV - no more VIP benefits for guests (no more point discounts, no more free upgrades and no more free guest certificates for guests of VIP owners). 

Phase Two – AFTER the May 31, 2007 VOA meeting in Orlando, FL - there are no longer unlimited free guest certifications (the price is now $49) and reservations have to be cancelled 15 days before check-in or all points will be lost.

Phase Three – at our preVOA (May 28) and the VOA (May 29, 2008) meeting in Orlando, FL – no more unlimited guest confirmations but ‘prorated’ as to level of membership (1 for FSP member, 5 for VIP, 10 for Gold VIP and 15 per million for Platinum) based on retail, resale and PIC points with additional guest certificates to cost $49 as of Oct. 15, 2008.

Phase Four – 10/09/08 email entitled “Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees”. During the May 28, 2009 pre VOA meeting Deanne Gabel was specifically asked “Can we expect more fee announcements this year?” and “Can you justify the increase in the guest confirmation fees when they can be requested via the Web without any customer support participation?” Her reply – “There are no increases in fees anticipated.” In the announcement it was stated that Guest Confirmations would increase from $25 to $129/$99 (contact center/website), that resale points will not be used to calculate ‘eligible points’ into the guest certificate equation, and that there will be increases in five of the other seven ‘fee based’ categories.

Comments/corrections are being solicited but I would appreciate receiving them ASAP so that I can finish ‘what needs be done’. Kendra

DETERORATING BENEFITS – Aimed Particularly at “Renters”
No longer able to rent unlimited points from Wyndham – July, 2006
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
No longer able to transfer of PIC points to other owners – Jan., 2007
No longer receive unlimited guest certificates as VIP Platinum – Oct 15, 2008
Resale points not ‘eligible’ in count of how many limited guest certificates
Increase in fee for guest certificates - $25 to $49 to $129/$99 (contact center/website)
Increase in fee for Express Window (within 60 days of check-in) of Points Rental - $5 per 1K to $10/$8 per 1 K (contact center/website)
Can’t use photos from website – Jan, 2008
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No guests without owner present – 
CHANGED BACK - when?
Cancel 15 days prior to check-in or lose all points -
Increase in fees – Oct. 15, 2008

DETERORATING BENEFITS – VIP
No longer have our personal ‘Vacation Counselor’
No longer have our own ‘Exclusive Toll-free Reservations Hotline’
No longer request specific rooms
Increase in PIC (Personal Interval Choice) fees from $25 to $49 to $89
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) -
CHANGED BACK -
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - 

DETERORATING BENEFITS – General
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
Regular use points are used before cancelled points (which can NOT be transferred to other owners, used to make an ARP [Advance Reservation Priority at ones home resort at 13 months], RARP [Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority at 11 months at other resorts] or put in the credit pool).
Increased fees in six of Wyndham’s eight “Fee Based Categories: :
Subject: Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:08:17 -0700
From: FairSharePlus@FVOA.com


Program Feature Current Fee New Fee 
Contact Center New Fee 
Web Site 

As of October 15, 2008 
Reservation Transactions $30 $59 $30 
Points Credit Pool $30 $39 Not Currently Available 
Points Rental Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Not Currently Available 
Express Window 
$5 per 1,000 Express Window 
$10 per 1,000 Express Window 
$8 per 1,000 
PIC
(Personal Interval Choice) $50 $89 Not Currently Available 
Guest Confirmations
(Fee only applies to confirmations made in excess of annual complimentary allocation based on eligible points) $25 $129 $99 
Housekeeping Credits $2.25 per credit No Change No Change 
Billing Fee
(If you receive a paper version of your monthly or annual statement) $6 $8 No Fee with PAC 



RCI
No longer make ARP exchanges into RCI
No longer ‘see’ generic deposits on RCI website – 

EXTRA HOLIDAYS
Wyndham Vacation Ownership’s ‘rental ‘arm’ – does not have to abide by same rules as owners (pay for guest certificate, cancel before 15 days of check-in, guests accept responsibility for any damage). Extra Holidays can take a full week of an owner's 'reservation' and just pay (weeks later) for one or two days and the owner has lost the rest. Wyndham is allowed to take 90% of the inventory that is still available 60 days before check-in and put it into Extra Holidays.


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> The best would be no discount for at least 24 hours on booking the same room type at the chosen resort along with a waitlist for others. This would make it pretty tough to cancel and rebook the prior to the discount unless there was lots of rooms available.
> 
> So if you booked a 2 bedroom you have to book a one bedroom or 3 bedroom or else you need to wait 24 hours.  Nothing wrong with that and pretty easy to implement.



That would work except that it's too easy to have two accounts Make the reservation in one and re book in the other


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## pacodemountainside (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Come on
> 
> Maybe we can go to  Mardi Gras and meet up with Paco




Let's go for it.

Look forward to   having a couple  Pat O' Brien Hurricanes  and   savoring your  escapades fornicating on roof of VW  Van  at Woodstock while enticing swinging chicks with beads!


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## ronparise (Oct 4, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Following is  a post from several Kendra made circa 2008. You can do search here and Wyndham Web Site for  more  gory details.
> 
> She  was  the Queen of Wyndham renters having some 16 million points even eclipsing Ron.
> 
> ...



So, it happened pretty much as I suspected. The changes and fee increases  applied to all owners, not just VIP and they were done to curtail activity of the mega renters. and 16 million points?...not all that much


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## slabeaume (Oct 4, 2013)

ronparise said:


> That would work except that it's too easy to have two accounts Make the reservation in one and re book in the other



As I recall, Worldmark has a policy like that for cancelling a regular reservation within bonus time.  And, yes, those who have 2 accounts can get around that.

On a sadder note---- for me---I tried that cancel and rebook "trick" just today and lost my Wyndham reservation for St. Thomas.  Fortunately Worldmark had the same unit I needed, so I was able to book it on Exotic Bonus Time with them.   So----we VIPs aren't always successful with the cancel and rebook at a discount!


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## Xcalibur (Oct 4, 2013)

slabeaume said:


> As I recall, Worldmark has a policy like that for cancelling a regular reservation within bonus time.  And, yes, those who have 2 accounts can get around that.
> 
> On a sadder note---- for me---I tried that cancel and rebook "trick" just today and lost my Wyndham reservation for St. Thomas.  Fortunately Worldmark had the same unit I needed, so I was able to book it on Exotic Bonus Time with them.   So----we VIPs aren't always successful with the cancel and rebook at a discount!



Interesting discussion brewing here... =)

yeah, the system is 'rigged', so it would seem.  I don't think the reduction in VIP privileges would work very well.  That change would definitely favour the resale market, and reduce the value of VIP to sales staff.  That is not in Wyndham sales' best interest.  The whole book, cancel, rebook trick is something that the sales people market.  

As for the resale owners, the reality is that the VIP 'trick' is not perfect for the VIP owners.  (as above).  As well, the # of VIPers out there is minimal compared to the # of resale owners. Even people who bought into VIP eventually sell and those buyers turn into the resale owners.  I would imagine the # of VIP estate transfers is small compared to the number of VIP members due to various life circumstances (divorce, death, job loss, health, etc...).  Afterall, that is why there is a resale market in the first place right?

At the end of the day, there are two main camps, the VIP owners, and the resale owner (non VIP retail, being the last group).  Resale owners want a level playing field compared to VIPers because they are paying maintenance fees.  The reality is that it is not the paying the maintenance fees that makes you VIP (everyone gets the same # of points), it is sad reality that the VIP owner typically overpaid for their product.  VIP owners paid for a privilege, and typically, overpaid for it.  And as a result, they must learn to use their VIP privileges to get value out of their overpriced purchase.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 4, 2013)

slabeaume said:


> As I recall, Worldmark has a policy like that for cancelling a regular reservation within bonus time. And, yes, those who have 2 accounts can get around that.
> 
> On a sadder note---- for me---I tried that cancel and rebook "trick" just today and lost my Wyndham reservation for St. Thomas. Fortunately Worldmark had the same unit I needed, so I was able to book it on Exotic Bonus Time with them. So----we VIPs aren't always successful with the cancel and rebook at a discount!


 

As you shouldn't be and they should lose their licenses for pitching it


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## lcml11 (Oct 4, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> As you shouldn't be and they should lose their licenses for pitching it



Not a re-sale owner, however, I think re-sale owners can do the same thing with Resort Specials.


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## chapjim (Oct 4, 2013)

Here's another way of looking at it.  My VIP and Presidential Reserve ownership is much more valuable because I can cancel and rebook and rent at a price people can afford.  If owners think their ownership has more value, Wyndham sells more points.

Wyndham should try to enhance the value of VIP and PR ownership.  They would sell more points that way.

When you say it hurts "the system," mostly you are saying it hurts resale owners who paid cents on the dollar.

[/B][/B]





tug1873 said:


> This actually hurts non vip members because I can't do that and takes away bookings from me because I am not VIP even thought I have enough points to qualify.
> 
> When you book early that inventory is no longer available for me to book. I would have booked and used the higher points. More points means more money in the system for everything including Maintenance fees.
> 
> Vip owners have a loophole in where they can book it the morning it's first available and then a few weeks before cancel it and rebook right away for a lot less points. That is why it hurts the system. If they cancel it and that rooms ends up on a waiting list or they have to wait 24 hours they most likely will not do it. When too many people do this and they will because they can wyndham will have no choice but to end it since it will cost them too much or becomes a liability to them


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## persia (Oct 4, 2013)

Resale points began life as developer points, somebody paid full price for them.  Making a distinction between the two devalues both.


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## Xcalibur (Oct 4, 2013)

And how exactly does it devalue both?  I'd over to hear your logic on that.  Without a developer market,  there would be no market. There is no way any projects would be built if you paid a dollar for them and only paid for maintenance fees.  Without a VIP program,  there would be a lot less sales.  A lot less sales would mean a fewer properties to visit...


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## am1 (Oct 4, 2013)

My vip retail points are worth more because resale points do not qualify.


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## ronparise (Oct 5, 2013)

It sounds like we are squaring off, and getting ready for a fight; 

resale owners resent retail because retail gets  the VIP benefits, and the tricks they play. 

And retail owners resent the resale because they get to stay in the same resorts for so little money

Take a step back and you will see that it really dosent make any difference how you got your points or what you paid for them, We all have access to the same resorts. And its been demonstrated in other posts over the years that the money we spend for our points balances out in the end. 

So lets look at the VIP guy that pays $200,000 for his million points and is able to make all his reservations in the discount window. He is paying something like $5000 a year mf plus and if we spread his purchase price over the next 40 years another $5000 a year. Or on average $10000 a year

A retail buyer that wants the same number of vacations doesnt get the same discounts, so he needs twice as many points. His mf is twice as much but his buy in was so low, we dont need to account for it...His expense for 2,000,000 points is $10000 a year too

So the expense side is equal. I know some would say that the retail guy doesnt have the same access to inventory...That's, I think, balogny  At ten months or (13 months for ARP) we all have exactly the same opportunity to make the same reservations

As to the question that the op asked...Have the changes Wyndham made over the years to erode VIP benefits been all that bad?  I think the answer is no. The changes have affected all owners (except the evil mega renters, And who cares about them?) equally.

And as to the question that came up in the discussion...Which is worth more, resale or retail, the answer is neither. If you want to sell,  both are worth the same. And in their use, both can get access to the same resorts.

If any owners  deserve any resentment at all (and I dont think we do) its the guys that have become VIP without spending all the money Wyndham wants for retail points. There used to be more cheap paths to VIP than there are now, but there are still ways to do it, for a whole lot less than the $200000 figure I threw out above. And those paths are still there for anyone to take advantage of..if you want to......so lets all stand down and learn to enjoy what we have.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 5, 2013)

am1 said:


> My vip retail points are worth more because resale points do not qualify.


 
Your only value is use, you can't get enough use out of them to justify the difference in cost, because at some point you or your heirs will want out and they are already at ZERO on the secondary market  - SUNK COSTS


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## am1 (Oct 5, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> Your only value is use, you can't get enough use out of them to justify the difference in cost, because at some point you or your heirs will want out and they are already at ZERO on the secondary market  - SUNK COSTS



The 29 additional free guest confirmations a year gives me $2800 more in value.  I have no interest in walking away until it really hits the fan.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 5, 2013)

> If any owners deserve any resentment at all (and I dont think we do) its the guys that have become VIP without spending all the money Wyndham wants for retail points. There used to be more cheap paths to VIP than there are now, but there are still ways to do it, for a whole lot less than the $200000 figure I threw out above. And those paths are still there for anyone to take advantage of..if you want to......so lets all stand down and learn to enjoy what we have.
> __________________



Definitely agree.  I am sure there are still ways around paying $200K for VIP Platinum.  I just don't know what they are anymore.


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## Ron2 (Oct 5, 2013)

ronparise said:


> It sounds like we are squaring off, and getting ready for a fight;
> 
> resale owners resent retail because retail gets  the VIP benefits, and the tricks they play.
> 
> And retail owners resent the resale because they get to stay in the same resorts for so little money



I must say that I agree with most everything you’ve stated in this thread and like many others I always take the time to read your comments. I consider you the voice of reason and knowledge when it comes to Wyndham timeshares. There is however one VIP loophole that wasn’t mentioned. That is the VIP benefits that are extended to resale contracts owned by VIP members. I must admit that I too took advantage of this loophole when I still owned resale contracts (sold the last one here on TUG earlier this year). I do believe that the loophole has a negative impact on the availability of reservations for the average owner because it allows so many more points to be used in the VIP cancel-rebook process during the discount period. Sure everyone has the same opportunity to call in at 8:00 am ET 13 months out but once you mega owners have the VC on the line you can keep reserving the prime reservations until they’re gone. When you grab a small unit plus a larger one to facilitate the cancel-rebook-upgrade process, you are tying up two units when you’re only after the larger unit. As more mega owners start up their rental business or worse yet turn over their VIP accounts to rental agencies to manage, the availability of prime reservations for the average owner is going to be severely diminished. My biggest fear is if Wyndham ever does away with the call-in requirement for the Advanced Reservation Period and replaces it with online booking. Although it would be far more convenient it would also open the door for the large rental firms to set up computer systems that would tie up the reservation system making it difficult for the average owner to even get into the website during the first minutes of advanced reservations. Like you have said, the main reasons for the changes that have occurred over the years is to control the mega owner/renters but unfortunately the average owner always gets hurt in the process.


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## ronparise (Oct 5, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> I must say that I agree with most everything you’ve stated in this thread and like many others I always take the time to read your comments. I consider you the voice of reason and knowledge when it comes to Wyndham timeshares. There is however one VIP loophole that wasn’t mentioned. That is the VIP benefits that are extended to resale contracts owned by VIP members. I must admit that I too took advantage of this loophole when I still owned resale contracts (sold the last one here on TUG earlier this year). I do believe that the loophole has a negative impact on the availability of reservations for the average owner because it allows so many more points to be used in the VIP cancel-rebook process during the discount period. Sure everyone has the same opportunity to call in at 8:00 am ET 13 months out but once you mega owners have the VC on the line you can keep reserving the prime reservations until they’re gone. When you grab a small unit plus a larger one to facilitate the cancel-rebook-upgrade process, you are tying up two units when you’re only after the larger unit. As more mega owners start up their rental business or worse yet turn over their VIP accounts to rental agencies to manage, the availability of prime reservations for the average owner is going to be severely diminished. My biggest fear is if Wyndham ever does away with the call-in requirement for the Advanced Reservation Period and replaces it with online booking. Although it would be far more convenient it would also open the door for the large rental firms to set up computer systems that would tie up the reservation system making it difficult for the average owner to even get into the website during the first minutes of advanced reservations. Like you have said, the main reasons for the changes that have occurred over the years is to control the mega owner/renters but unfortunately the average owner always gets hurt in the process.



I think you are absolutely right with your last sentence. When Wyndham made the changes that they did, they cut across the entire ownership.. everyone was affected. 

but I take issue with your comment that somehow the VIPs with a large number of points have an advantage when it comes to making reservations. When the phone lines open up, we all have the same chance of reaching a VC. Lets assume that you and I both want the same reservation, but I want ten of them and you want one. and lets assume that you and I both reach a VC at the same time.  and lets assume that there are 49 other owners that reach a VC at the same time and that we all want the same reservation... My VC has to make the reservations one at a time just like the one you are talking to and just like the ones the other 49 owners are talking to...Whats going to happen is that we all will get a reservation at about the same time. You guys hang up and 50 more take your places. my VC starts working on my second reservation, and finishes at about the same time as the other 50 VCs get the next 50 owners reservations done. . so now (Ill use La Belle Maison as an example) there are only 41 reservations left, I might get my third, but that will be all. The place will be sold out before I get the 10 I want, and if there are 150 VCs Ill only get 1 just like everyone else.

Heres what happened to me this past Jan 28. I wanted a two bedroom unit at La Belle Maison for check in Feb 28 2014 (Mardi Gras). I was on the phone right at 8 am. My VC started work on the reservation but when she hit the button to confirm, there was nothing available. There were other owners that either had a faster VC or they were on the phone a few seconds earlier than me...

My point is that it doesnt matter that I might have 10 million points and you only 300000, when we call or go on line for that hard to get reservation we are treated exactly the same way. and we have exactly the same chance of getting a reservation, ie slim and none. And it doesnt matter if I get 2 reservations (to prepare for the cancel and rebook trick a year later) Sure I have two reservations tied up, but if it wasnt me it would have been 2 of the other 500000 owners with one reservation each tying them up. Either way they are tied up, and they arent available for the other 499998 owners

The way I see it is a lot like the lottery. I I buy one ticket I have a one in a gazillion chance of winning and if I buy 20 I have a 20 in a gazillion chance of winning.  Either way,  chances are Im not going to win. With Wyndham 300000 points or 10 million points my chances of getting the reservation I want are as I said above,,,slim and none


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## VivianLynne (Oct 5, 2013)

ronparise said:


> ...but I take issue with your comment that somehow the VIPs with a large number of points have an advantage when it comes to making reservations. When the phone lines open up, we all have the same chance of reaching a VC. ....
> 
> The way I see it is a lot like the lottery. I I buy one ticket I have a one in a gazillion chance of winning and if I buy 20 I have a 20 in a gazillion chance of winning.  Either way,  chances are Im not going to win. With Wyndham 300000 points or 10 million points my chances of getting the reservation I want are as I said above,,,slim and none



Actually, if Wyndham wanted to, during the ARP booking window - they could LIMIT each phone call to JUST ONE RESERVATION. Then you would have to redial and get into the queue again. If they are cancelling overlapping reservations without guest certificates at the 15 days before check in -- why would this be any different. It would serious HURT a mega-renter booking 5 reservations for ANY event.


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## ronparise (Oct 5, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> Actually, if Wyndham wanted to, during the ARP booking window - they could LIMIT each phone call to JUST ONE RESERVATION. Then you would have to redial and get into the queue again. If they are cancelling overlapping reservations without guest certificates at the 15 days before check in -- why would this be any different. It would serious HURT a mega-renter booking 5 reservations for ANY event.



If your goal is to screw the renters just for the fun of it, sure that would work, but if your goal is to improve your chances of getting a really hard to get reservation, it wont make any difference. Just like the 2 bedroom I wanted for Mardi Gras, your chances are slim and none. and will continue to be slim and none. By the way, I have several phone lines and several friends willing to call for me, which is how I intend to improve my chances for next year


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## lcml11 (Oct 5, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> Actually, if Wyndham wanted to, during the ARP booking window - they could LIMIT each phone call to JUST ONE RESERVATION. Then you would have to redial and get into the queue again. If they are cancelling overlapping reservations without guest certificates at the 15 days before check in -- why would this be any different. It would serious HURT a mega-renter booking 5 reservations for ANY event.



This forum makes a big mistake thinking Wyndham's life is committed to eliminating the mega rentor.  Eliminating the people and firms that engage in viking ship tactics and significant competitors, I believe so, but not mega rentors in the context of 30 million points or less.

These folks probably are a stable source of MFs for the resorts they manage and help pick up the resorts/units they do not want.  Remember, they have most of the management contracts.

I am not sure if Ron would even qualify under this standard.

Sorry Ron, did not mean to imply you might be insignificant to Wyndham Vacation Resorts and Worldmark.

Hopefully the friends Ron talks about get a finders fee.  The system could work.  Friend uses their points, Ron gives them an equal number of points reservations in return.  Heck, it could just be the equal number of points plus surplus points that cannot be used profitably.  No cash transaction.


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## chapjim (Oct 5, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> Your only value is use, you can't get enough use out of them to justify the difference in cost, because at some point you or your heirs will want out and they are already at ZERO on the secondary market  - SUNK COSTS



This is utter nonsense.  The point of sunk costs is that they cannot be recovered and therefore should not be considered in making investment decisions.  What you are describing is economic loss, not sunk costs.

Your argument is, I think, that VIP status is not worth spending the money to achieve.  That's a subjective opinion and I won't argue the point but it is much less clear to some than it is to you.  For people who have already achieved VIP status, VIP status does have value.  For people who are close to VIP status, spending some additional money to achieve VIP status can be a sound decision. 

This last spring and summer, I booked five 4BR Presidential units a Bonnet Creek for 112K, 56K, 115.5K, 112K, and 115.5K.  I got some value from my VIP ownership.

Jim


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## Ron2 (Oct 5, 2013)

ronparise said:


> If your goal is to screw the renters just for the fun of it, sure that would work, but if your goal is to improve your chances of getting a really hard to get reservation, it wont make any difference. Just like the 2 bedroom I wanted for Mardi Gras, your chances are slim and none. and will continue to be slim and none. By the way, I have several phone lines and several friends willing to call for me, which is how I intend to improve my chances for next year



So the example you gave in Post #43 no longer applies since you plan to use multiple callers to make your advanced reservations. I expect that’s exactly what the large rental firms do that manage the large VIP accounts. The question is, can more than one person be on the phone lines using the same owner account number at the same time. I don’t doubt that they can and if they have 20 or 30 employees they can reserve a significant number of units during the first few minutes of the Advanced Reservation Period. Therefore my chances of getting a prime reservation when I'm competing with a call center will be slim to none. Since you guys are primarily interested in the high demand holiday and special event weeks, it really doesn’t impact folks like me who steer clear of those busy weeks but there are a lot of owners who can only get away during those holiday weeks. Their chances of getting one of those prime reservations really will be slim to none. Quite frankly I think VivianLynne had a good suggestion although limiting to one reservation per day would be a little extreme. Possibly 2 or 3 reservations per resort per day for each owner account would level the playing field a bit.


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## ronparise (Oct 5, 2013)

Actually I have 2 accounts 1 with LaBelle Maison points and one with CWA my wife will be on one phone and me on another. But you miss my point. For each reservation I try for, other folks will be trying too. And for each one our chances are equal. There are only 140 units in that building and god knows how many LBM and CWA owners that want one of those 140. For all of us our chances are slim and none


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## lcml11 (Oct 5, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> So the example you gave in Post #43 no longer applies since you plan to use multiple callers to make your advanced reservations. I expect that’s exactly what the large rental firms do that manage the large VIP accounts. The question is, can more than one person be on the phone lines using the same owner account number at the same time. I don’t doubt that they can and if they have 20 or 30 employees they can reserve a significant number of units during the first few minutes of the Advanced Reservation Period. Therefore my chances of getting a prime reservation when I'm competing with a call center will be slim to none. Since you guys are primarily interested in the high demand holiday and special event weeks, it really doesn’t impact folks like me who steer clear of those busy weeks but there are a lot of owners who can only get away during those holiday weeks. Their chances of getting one of those prime reservations really will be slim to none. Quite frankly I think VivianLynne had a good suggestion although limiting to one reservation per day would be a little extreme. Possibly 2 or 3 reservations per resort per day for each owner account would level the playing field a bit.



Some around here think a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point.  To the degree that I own 1 million plus Wyndham Vacation Resort points should not limit me because of my ownership of these points.  

I would not like becoming a tenth class owner or worse because I own more than one or two contracts.

It is my understanding that most everyone can buy more points if they want, resale or developer points.  ARP rights do not add any significant value for the VIP owner.   Owners that own and pay maintenance fess on their points would have some of their points devalued in this way.

P.S.  Most of the day here in PA. it was not raining.  Maybe me and others like me should go smell the roses and fly a kite.  Others that want to cure the alleged injustice of this issue can always head off to E-Bay and buy more points.

P.P.S.  If anyone wants Veterans day weekend at Kingsgate there were a number of units available for 11/08/2013:   	3 nights 1 Bedroom  45,000 points 22,500 VIP points.  Anyone want to check Resort Specials?


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## jebloomquist (Oct 5, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> Actually, if Wyndham wanted to, during the ARP booking window - they could LIMIT each phone call to JUST ONE RESERVATION. Then you would have to redial and get into the queue again. If they are cancelling overlapping reservations without guest certificates at the 15 days before check in -- why would this be any different. It would serious HURT a mega-renter booking 5 reservations for ANY event.



I know of owners who have huge family gatherings at one resort. They book up to 6 units for a week. This requires a great deal of work to make the reservations, all at the same time, and know that there is availability at a resort such as Bonnet Creek.

Guest certificate are put on later, because it is never clear which family members will actually make the family gathering.

By limiting the number of reservations that an owner can make might get a legal challenge from an owner who is doing legitimate large family reservations.


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## lcml11 (Oct 5, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Some around here think a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point.  To the degree that I own 1 million plus Wyndham Vacation Resort points should not limit me because of my ownership of these points.
> 
> I would not like becoming a tenth class owner or worse because I own more than one or two contracts.
> 
> ...




Wyndham Ocean Boulevard  36,000 VIP Points for a three bedroom.


Star Island 24,000 VIP Points for a one bedroom A side.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 5, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> This actually hurts non vip members because I can't do that and takes away bookings from me because I am not VIP even thought I have enough points to qualify.
> 
> When you book early that inventory is no longer available for me to book. I would have booked and used the higher points. More points means more money in the system for everything including Maintenance fees.
> 
> Vip owners have a loophole in where they can book it the morning it's first available and then a few weeks before cancel it and rebook right away for a lot less points. That is why it hurts the system. If they cancel it and that rooms ends up on a waiting list or they have to wait 24 hours they most likely will not do it. When too many people do this and they will because they can wyndham will have no choice but to end it since it will cost them too much or becomes a liability to them



This doesn't hurt the system, all this hurts is sales. They are the ones that have to pay the extra points that VIPs get. Vip benefits don't change the amount of MF that are paid into the system. What VIPs do is actually take away from extra holiday rentals because they have less points to book rooms and there is less inventory for them to rent out. 

Jason


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## persia (Oct 5, 2013)

Does the following work?  Transfer the VIP account to a trust, add a new owner to the trust, remove the original owner?


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## lcml11 (Oct 5, 2013)

persia said:


> Does the following work?  Transfer the VIP account to a trust, add a new owner to the trust, remove the original owner?



Best way to answer this is to gather the program documents, deeds, etc. and take them to an attorney.  The answer may very well rest with when the intervals were bought, the type of interval, and the specific club in question.


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## ronparise (Oct 6, 2013)

persia said:


> Does the following work?  Transfer the VIP account to a trust, add a new owner to the trust, remove the original owner?



Or transfer to corporation and then sell the the stock to a new owner. There's no reason why that shouldn't work. Except that it getting around the rules. I think Wyndham would be within their rights to take away VIP if,(and this is a big if) they figure out what's happening


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## Ron2 (Oct 6, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Some around here think a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point.  To the degree that I own 1 million plus Wyndham Vacation Resort points should not limit me because of my ownership of these points.
> 
> I would not like becoming a tenth class owner or worse because I own more than one or two contracts.
> 
> ...



I’m not sure how buying more points can cure any injustices. However I am sure that “a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point” and that ARP has value even to VIP owners. If you don’t believe me, just try to reserve a summer 2 or 3 bedroom unit at Seawatch without it. Even with CWA, it’s near impossible. Since the comment on limiting the number of reservations that an owner can make at a single resort each day struck a nerve with you, it’s obvious you’re more interested in using Wyndham as a business venture than for personal vacations. Honestly, I don’t have any problem with owners reserving a few prime time units as rentals to help cover their costs of ownership but I do have a problem with large rental firms sucking up a large portion of prime time inventory at the more popular resorts for their rental business.


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## ronparise (Oct 6, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> I’m not sure how buying more points can cure any injustices. However I am sure that “a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point” and that ARP has value even to VIP owners. If you don’t believe me, just try to reserve a summer 2 or 3 bedroom unit at Seawatch without it. Even with CWA, it’s near impossible. Since the comment on limiting the number of reservations that an owner can make at a single resort each day struck a nerve with you, it’s obvious you’re more interested in using Wyndham as a business venture than for personal vacations. Honestly, I don’t have any problem with owners reserving a few prime time units as rentals to help cover their costs of ownership but I do have a problem with large rental firms sucking up a large portion of prime time inventory at the more popular resorts for their rental business.



You need to know that these large rental firms represent individual owners. and they make those reservations in individual owners accounts. one here and one there.  The owners are, as you suggest, just trying to cover some of their fees, when they employ one of these firms.

I seldom agree with lcml11  (heck, I seldom understand what he is saying) but here I think he is right.  When it comes to getting a reservation you want, the only difference between a small account owner and a large account owner (VIP or otherwise) is the number of points that they have. So if you want more reservations, just buy more points

What difference does it make if I have 3 million points and I  make 10 reservations for a particular date or if ten 300000 point owners make one reservation each...either way thats 10 reservations that are no longer available to the rest of the owners. And the fact is that if you only want one of those reservations, you will have a much better chance of getting that one than I have getting my 10. And thats what I see as not fair...I have 10 times the points and I pay 10 times the mf; shouldnt I be able to get ten times the reservations?... ie shouldnt size matter?   but it doesnt


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## lcml11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> I’m not sure how buying more points can cure any injustices. However I am sure that “a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point” and that ARP has value even to VIP owners. If you don’t believe me, just try to reserve a summer 2 or 3 bedroom unit at Seawatch without it. Even with CWA, it’s near impossible. Since the comment on limiting the number of reservations that an owner can make at a single resort each day struck a nerve with you, it’s obvious you’re more interested in using Wyndham as a business venture than for personal vacations. Honestly, I don’t have any problem with owners reserving a few prime time units as rentals to help cover their costs of ownership but I do have a problem with large rental firms sucking up a large portion of prime time inventory at the more popular resorts for their rental business.



The cure to the injustice is to switch sides.

By the way, it is under 10 months and Seawatch Plantation is available during the summer.  Go for it.

Seawatch Plantation:

06/06/2014 	7 	1 Bedroom Deluxe 	Managed by Wyndham Vacation Management, Inc.	154,000 	N/A

06/09/2014 	7 	1 Bedroom Deluxe        Managed by Wyndham Vacation Management, Inc.	154,000 	N/A

Ocean Blvd has plenty of availability through June and July and August 1st.  The balance of the weeks in August are not up in the window at this point.  No reason to believe they will be different.

Towers on the Grove has availability in June, July, and the small portion of August that is in the window.

Westwinds still has the following:  06/06/2014 	7 nights	2 Bedroom Deluxe  Managed by Wyndham Vacation Management, Inc.  175,000

You appear to make broad statements not necessarily supported by facts.

If you want Seawatch Plantation during the summer.  Just buy some Seawatch Plantation contracts and use the ARP.  You get the added bonus that the ARP at 13 months can be used in some of the other Myrtle Beach resorts.

Simple fix.

If you insist on Seawatch Plantation 2 bedroom, it is currently available through reservations from about August 17, 2013 on under ARP.  So much for the earlier riser getting all of the worms for Summer 2 bedrooms at Seawatch Plantation for mid to late August.  For this group, the early bird just got some of the worms and got on line early.

P.S.  In my opinion, Westwinds is the better location if you do not have children with you.  Otherwise it is Seawatch Plantation.  Towers on the Grove next and Ocean Blvd. et. al. bring of the rear.  Unless you want three bedrooms, then I hear tell that the Cottages is what you want.


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## Bigrob (Oct 6, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> The cure to the injustice is to switch sides.
> 
> By the way, it is under 10 months and Seawatch Plantation is available during the summer.  Go for it.
> 
> ...



Ocean Blvd will usually have availability because of the higher point cost to stay there. Seawatch is, from most accounts, the most difficult to book. Early June is too early for northern area visitors with school agers. OB III (which ironically is Tower 2) and Towers on the Grove have the lowest mf$/K and still have reciprocal ARP rights with Seawatch, WW and Cottages.


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## Ron2 (Oct 6, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> The cure to the injustice is to switch sides.
> 
> By the way, it is under 10 months and Seawatch Plantation is available during the summer.  Go for it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for confirming my claim that there is value in ARP for VIP owners, after all back on post #50 you claimed there is none. As for larger units at Seawatch, you again have supported my assertion that you need to be in on day one of ARP to get anything other than 1-BR units. By the way, the examples you gave for early June availability would be considered late spring not summer. I have been there at that time of year and the water temperature is generally not to my liking. Again, I’m not sure what you mean by “The cure to the injustice is to switch sides.” Does this have some meaning in the Pennsylvania Dutch community?


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## Ron2 (Oct 6, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> I know of owners who have huge family gatherings at one resort. They book up to 6 units for a week. This requires a great deal of work to make the reservations, all at the same time, and know that there is availability at a resort such as Bonnet Creek.
> 
> Guest certificate are put on later, because it is never clear which family members will actually make the family gathering.
> 
> By limiting the number of reservations that an owner can make might get a legal challenge from an owner who is doing legitimate large family reservations.



I couldn’t agree more. Wyndham should accommodate large family gatherings at the resorts. In fact I think they should make it a new VIP perk to accommodate families needing multiple rooms (preferably together) for such occasions. An advanced written request with the names/addresses of all “potential guests” and a special call in phone line would facilitate a quick reservation process at the opening of ARP. The potential guest list would be necessary because without one it would become just another loophole to beat the reservation system. By accommodating such legitimate large groups needing multiple accommodations, I believe they could then put reasonable limits on the number of reservations that a member could make per day at a single resort.


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## lcml11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> Thanks for confirming my claim that there is value in ARP for VIP owners, after all back on post #50 you claimed there is none. As for larger units at Seawatch, you again have supported my assertion that you need to be in on day one of ARP to get anything other than 1-BR units. By the way, the examples you gave for early June availability would be considered late spring not summer. I have been there at that time of year and the water temperature is generally not to my liking. Again, I’m not sure what you mean by “The cure to the injustice is to switch sides.” Does this have some meaning in the Pennsylvania Dutch community?



No, just an offer to switch sides on the debate.  Do not need ARP for it but I am glad to see you at least endorse family re-unions.  Have used Myrtle Beach and National Harbor for these events in the past.  Why take away from non-VIP owners by making it a VIP right.  That would presumably significantly limit ARP availability for non-VIP if it took hold.  Not to sound to paranoid, but, I do not like the idea of Big Brother Wyndham knowing who in my family is going to show up until they do.  Heck, they already know if they want to who they are.

For those that do not know the implication of the phrase Big Brother, it is not Pennsylvania Dutch and is not particularly nice as a complement.  Also, for those that do not know the difference between Lancaster County, Pa. and Cumberland County, Pa.  A Pa. civics lesson may be in order.

A good start might be a RCI reservation in a Bluegreen Resort right next to Hershey Park, Lancaster County, Pa.  

The second Pa. Civics lesson would be that Hershey Park is named after Milton Hershey.  His company made/makes a bunch of candy, among other things, the Hershey bar and Hersey Kisses.  May I suggest Christmas time.  They have one heck of a operation for the Christmas season.

"Entrepreneur Milton Snavely Hershey was born on September 13, 1957, in Derry Township, Pennsylvania. He was the only surviving child of Veronica "Fanny" Snavely and Henry Hershey. Born on a farm outside of Derry Church, Pennsylvania—a small farming community in the central part of the state—Hershey spent the early years of his childhood trailing his father, a dreamer who always had his eye out for the next big opportunity. But Henry Hershey lacked the perseverance and work ethic to stick anything out.

By 1867, Hershey's father had largely cut himself out of the family picture. The details around his parents' separation are cloudy, but it's largely believed that Fanny, the daughter of a Mennonite clergyman, had grown tired of her husband's failures.

With Hershey's upbringing left to her, the strict Fanny instilled in her son an appreciation for hard work ..."

The Bio I got this excerpt from is wrong.  He was not born in 1957.


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## tug1873 (Oct 6, 2013)

As long ad no one is treated any different in how they can reserve a week I do not see how they have any advantage. 

All owners need to own points those points represent ownership. Mega renters I would bet own more prime weeks or at resorts that are highly sought after then most.

As long as the system is in balance there will be plenty of inventory to book. Alot those weeks may indeed be owned by them. 

As long as there not treated different then I am in booking I don't see a problem. If at the 10 month mark I can't book there then it just means the owners are using there points and those points will not be competing elsewhere for point.

Also if you a vip owner wyndham isn't giving much to you other then guest certficates and the chance to grab a room cheaper.  The guest certificate charge for owners is also probaly not legal if you use your home resort .

Vip membership at the most  worth about 5k  to me even then it's true value is limited for how I use the points. I was offered a chance for a 1million points from wyndham for 20k and thought it wasn't worth it to me. Cheapest way for vip is to take over a defaulting contract. Wyndham has bills to pay as well and they offload those to people who can assume the mortgage.


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## Ron2 (Oct 6, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> No, just an offer to switch sides on the debate.  Do not need ARP for it but I am glad to see you at least endorse family re-unions.  Have used Myrtle Beach and National Harbor for these events in the past.  Why take away from non-VIP owners by making it a VIP right.  That would presumably significantly limit ARP availability for non-VIP if it took hold.  Not to sound to paranoid, but, I do not like the idea of Big Brother Wyndham knowing who in my family is going to show up until they do.  Heck, they already know if they want to who they are.
> 
> For those that do not know the implication of the phrase Big Brother, it is not Pennsylvania Dutch and is not particularly nice as a complement.  Also, for those that do not know the difference between Lancaster County, Pa. and Cumberland County, Pa.  A Pa. civics lesson may be in order.
> 
> A good start might be a RCI reservation in a Bluegreen Resort right next to Hershey Park, Lancaster County, Pa.



I think its best that we just agree to disagree. Its been an interesting debate and I’m sure I ticked off a few people with my comments and suggestions but just possibly a few people may even agree with me. So lets just leave it at that. By the way, that was an interesting little civics lesson that you provided. I am, however, very familiar with the difference between Lancaster and Cumberland Counties and by the way if anyone is trying to find Hershey Park in Lancaster County, they’re not going to find it – its in Dauphin County, a few miles east of Harrisburg -been there many times.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 6, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Or transfer to corporation and then sell the the stock to a new owner. There's no reason why that shouldn't work. Except that it getting around the rules. I think Wyndham would be within their rights to take away VIP if,(and this is a big if) they figure out what's happening



This does work. This may be how I got my VIP status..

Jason


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## lcml11 (Oct 7, 2013)

Ron2 said:


> I think its best that we just agree to disagree. Its been an interesting debate and I’m sure I ticked off a few people with my comments and suggestions but just possibly a few people may even agree with me. So lets just leave it at that. By the way, that was an interesting little civics lesson that you provided. I am, however, very familiar with the difference between Lancaster and Cumberland Counties and by the way if anyone is trying to find Hershey Park in Lancaster County, they’re not going to find it – its in Dauphin County, a few miles east of Harrisburg -been there many times.



Sorry about the county thing.  Daulphin was formed from Lancaster County.  It is still a great place to stay and go down the way a piece and visit the Outlets (skip the Hershey outlets as a waste of time).  While there visit the local furniture places and/or have the local folks make some real wood furniture to your specifications for you at prices that you would not believe and a unreal quality.  Also, pick up a few dozen handmade quilts while you are there.

German is still spoken by some in this neck of the woods.


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