# worldmark vs starwood vacation ownership



## pefs65 (May 26, 2009)

what are your opinions pros/cons

seems to me starwood more expensive to own than worldmark?

worldmark has more options on where to stay?

starwood properties more expensive than worldmark?

maintanence fees more expensive for starwood?

am I right/wrong??

Thanks for the help


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## LLW (May 26, 2009)

pefs65 said:


> what are your opinions pros/cons
> 
> seems to me starwood more expensive to own than worldmark?
> 
> ...



If you would like a guranteed week at Starwood, especially during school holidays, buy Starwood. If you want to go to Starwood resorts but are flexible on your dates, and are willing to spend the time searching for exchanges, buy Worldmark. 

Starwood is more expensive in both purchase price and maintenance fees, because their properties are usually nicer. On the other hand, WM has some really nice properties also, and you can exchange into Starwood and other high-end brands readily.

If you like WM's flexibility, and would like to go to many of the resorts that WM has, buy WM. If you want to find out more about WM, visit www.wmowners.com, especially its forum.

I am biased - I think WM is the best.  But it's really a personal decision as to cost, locations, level of luxury, deeded vs points, weekly stays vs short stays.........


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## ecwinch (May 27, 2009)

Pros (WorldMark):

More flexibility
Lower m/f
More resorts - best timeshare network in the Western US - particularly in West Coast urban areas. T/S in every major west coast population center except Sacramento
Better trading opportunities at a lower cost
Ability to vacation more at a lower cost
Retains value better 

Cons

Wyndham business relationship

Pros (Starwood)

More luxurious resorts
On average - better trader

Cons 

Higher m/f
Higher acquistion costs if you want points option


JMHO


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## DeniseM (May 27, 2009)

There is another option (if you're flexible.)  Buy an inexpensive Starwood voluntary resale, and use the Starwood priority in II to exchange into the more expensive Starwood resorts.  Starwood owners can "see" and reserve other Starwood timeshares deposited with II, before non-owners, so you can get some great exchanges for a fraction of the cost this way.

No offense, but I don't think you can compare Starwood quality to Wyndham/Worldmark  quality, (we own 3 of each) but that's not very important to us.


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## LLW (May 27, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> There is another option (if you're flexible.)  Buy an inexpensive Starwood voluntary resale, and use the Starwood priority in II to exchange into the more expensive Starwood resorts.  Starwood owners can "see" and reserve other Starwood timeshares deposited with II, before non-owners, so you can get some great exchanges for a fraction of the cost this way.



What would be the acquisition cost and MF?


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## DeniseM (May 27, 2009)

LLW said:


> What would be the acquisition cost and MF?



It depends on where you buy.  Lots of people like Sheraton Desert Oasis, or Sheraton Broadway Plantation for a II trader.  At the top of the Starwood Board, in Owner Resources, we have some recent ebay sales prices.  While it is not a complete list, it will give you some sample prices.  Also at the top of the board, there is a thread with current maintenance fees.  If you are interested in Starwood, you should also check out the FAQ, the 2 articles about exchange with II, and the other resources posted there.


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## K2Quick (May 27, 2009)

LLW said:


> Starwood is more expensive in both purchase price and maintenance fees, because their properties are usually nicer. On the other hand, WM has some really nice properties also, and you can exchange into Starwood and other high-end brands readily.



I'm not sure I agree that Starwood is more expensive in purchase price than WM.  I don't currently own any timeshare interest, but have looked at all the options and have pretty much eliminated WM as an option because of the steep up-front cost compared to what I can get with either Starwood or (to a lesser extent) Marriott.  It seems the minimum ownership interest worth buying in WM is 12,000 points and that runs more than $7,000 on eBay.  Then if you want to visit some of the more desirable, newer properties, you have to shell out even more points.  The WM Anaheim costs 16,500 points for a week in a two bed unit.  If you wanted to visit that one on a recurring basis, you'd have to shell out close to $10k up front plus close to $900 in annual maintenance fees.  For less up front, you could buy into the Marriott Newport Coast Villas for roughly the same maintenance fee.

I can buy into a few decent Starwood resorts for less than $2,000 for an annual interest in a 2 bed unit with maintenance fees of $850 or less and get II trading priority to all other Starwood resorts.

Ultimately, for me, it boils down to quality.  When we go on vacation today, we like to stay in nice hotels.  The quality of furnishings you see in Starwood/Marriott/Hyatt/Hilton timeshares is on the same level of their hotels and that is important to me.  When I look at pictures of Worldmark resorts, some of them (not all) look to be furnished along the lines of a Comfort Inn.

The areas where WM would be attractive to me would be generally lower maintenance fees, much better flexibility, and more locations on the west coast than most others.  But for me personally, those are offset by an unjustifiably high up-front cost for a much lower standard of quality.  Because of that, I'll probably end up buying into either Starwood or Marriott or maybe a combination of the two.


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## cruisin (May 27, 2009)

deleted post


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## cruisin (May 27, 2009)

I own Worldmark, starwood and Marriott. I am biased, I live in Seattle, less than 6 hour drive to 19 Worldmark resorts. I really think Worldmark is a must have for anyone in Washington and Oregon. I use The Marriott and starwood for the preference on exchanges. I could never imagine not having both options. We always try to stay in the best place possible, if there is a marriott/westin/hilton etc. where we are heading, we stay there over worldmark. But I have seen no plans for any high end timeshares to build in Washington or oregon. We drive to Worldmark, and fly to Marriott/westin.


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## alwysonvac (May 27, 2009)

*JMHO*

To me, it only makes sense to own Starwood, if you plan to use what you own, take advantage of the internal trades within the Starwood system and/or take advantage of the 3 day Starwood preference period with Interval International. If you're considering Starwood, read the Stickies on the TUG Starwood Forum.

To me, it only makes sense to own WorldMark, if you're looking to primarily stay at the WorldMark resorts and/or if you want a great flexible trader within Interval International(II) or RCI. With II, you can only request an ongoing search based on the unit size you own or deposit. Since Worldmark is a point based system, you have the flexibility to request an ongoing search for any unit size within II. Also with Worldmark, you can bank, borrow and/or rent credits.

It is important to understand that exchange companies only have access to what is deposited and not all weeks are deposited. As someone said on a recent TUG thread, if you assumed that you will simply be able to "exchange" into where you want to go, when you want to go there then you might be very disappointed". 

For example, Marriott owners get to pick the week they want to deposit and experienced Marriott owners will try to deposit the highest demand weeks for the best trading power in II. However Marriott owners also have 24 days advance access to all Marriott weeks deposited in Interval International so it is very rare that high demand weeks (i.e. Hawaii summer and winter break, Hilton Head summer, California coast summer, etc) get released to the general public and when they do it's normally during the flexchange period (59 days or less). 

I use WorldMark as my trader. It trades with both RCI and II. I've traded into Harborside at Atlantis three times with my WorldMark credits and I've seen weeks online but it's all been for offseason weeks or last minute weeks. Starwood controls which weeks are deposited into Interval International. Starwood saves high demand weeks for owners and deposit offseason weeks and low demand weeks in Interval International. I understood what was typically available via old TUG threads and I've made II exchange requests within those periods of availability. See this old post about exchanges into Harborside at Atlantis - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313083&postcount=3

I suggest reading these old TUG threads to give you more to think about
(1) Best TS - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90790
(2) Owning Multiple Systems - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999
(3) TUG's timeshare 101 from the TUG Advice Board - http://www.tug2.net/advice/TimeShare-101.htm

By the way, I also believe in buying into a company that offers you places where you want to stay. We own several timeshares each for a specific purpose. 

Good Luck with your decision


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## LLW (May 27, 2009)

K2Quick said:


> ....... those are offset by an unjustifiably high up-front cost for a much lower standard of quality.........



I wonder why that is.


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## Robert D (May 27, 2009)

I agree that the upfront cost of WM is a lot more than some Starwood resorts. You can find a 1BR SDO that floats 1-52 for well under $1,000 including closing costs.  I have never tried to do so but have heard with the Starwood trading priority coupled with depositing a strong spring training week you can get into some high end Starwood resorts.  We've stayed in a couple Starwoods (Desert Oasis & Vistana Villages) and one WM (Depoe Bay) and feel that SW is a notch or two better in terms of quality. We also own two Marriott weeks but I'm not aware of any Marriotts that float 1-52 so to get the best weeks you have to buy platinum, and the Marriott platinum weeks cost a lot more upfront than the low cost Starwoods unless you buy one that has a lot of problems and really high M&T's like Streamside.  I think the fact that WM's continue to command a high upfront resale value is a tribute to the large number of resorts they have in Western states where there is a small supply of TS's, and the fact that their system is flexible and user friendly.  Seems like most WM owners have good things to say about them which is not the case with a lot of TS companies.


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## yumdrey (May 28, 2009)

For trading purposes, Worldmark is the best.
I own both Westin Mission Hills (Starwood) and WM, but when I do "trading power test", always WM 3 bedroom wins.
Also, during flexchange period, you use only 4k WM credits, it is a great benefit. I have traded into many Marriott units (most of them are summer red weeks) with my WM credits.
Starwood has higher maintenance fee compared to WM. For my 20k WM credit, I pay almost $1,000 maintenance fee per year, and I can trade it into two prime summer week 2BR units, or 5 flexchange (5 units).
Even though I use my worldmark as trading tool, if OP is located on westcoast, worldmark offers many resorts in that area and worldmark offers the most flexible vacation program.
I don't think Worldmark is cheaper than Starwood, it really depends on the resort.
I agree that overall starwood resorts are higher-end than worldmark resort.


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## ecwinch (May 28, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> Pros (Starwood)
> 
> *More luxurious resorts*





DeniseM said:


> No offense, *but I don't think you can compare Starwood quality to Wyndham/Worldmark  quality*, (we own 3 of each) but that's not very important to us.



I think I gave you that point. The standard WorldMark unit is not the same level of luxury as a standard Starwood unit. I Agree.


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## ecwinch (May 28, 2009)

K2Quick said:


> I'm not sure I agree that Starwood is more expensive in purchase price than WM.  I don't currently own any timeshare interest, but have looked at all the options and have pretty much eliminated WM as an option because of the steep up-front cost compared to what I can get with either Starwood or (to a lesser extent) Marriott.  It seems the minimum ownership interest worth buying in WM is 12,000 points and that runs more than $7,000 on eBay.  Then if you want to visit some of the more desirable, newer properties, you have to shell out even more points.  The WM Anaheim costs 16,500 points for a week in a two bed unit.  If you wanted to visit that one on a recurring basis, you'd have to shell out close to $10k up front plus close to $900 in annual maintenance fees.  For less up front, you could buy into the Marriott Newport Coast Villas for roughly the same maintenance fee.
> 
> I can buy into a few decent Starwood resorts for less than $2,000 for an annual interest in a 2 bed unit with maintenance fees of $850 or less and get II trading priority to all other Starwood resorts.
> 
> ...



WorldMark vs Starwood is a real apple to orange comparision. 

Your outlining the strategy to buy a "cheap" Starwood week in order to gain access to the Starwood network. So automatically your costs become:

m/f + exchange membership fee + exchange fee

so $850 + $40 + $99 = $998

which gets you one week somewhere in the SVO network.

For Worldmark - assuming you want one week at any of the high end resorts your cost is $900. This gives you the ability to book 1 week in any of the resorts 13 months in the advance. Not subject to what becomes available in II.

And you do not need to buy a large account. You can easily buy a 6k account for $2500. And there are numerous strategies for extending your WorldMark account to get more time at prices near maintenance fees. Few other programs offer that option. That is the value of WorldMark.

For instance I can essentially buy an unlimited number of flexchange weeks for about $260 each. Or an unlimited number of normal exchange weeks at $390. Red season 2 BR traders at $570.  Then add the $139 exchange fee for total cost of exchange. Try that with a Starwood week. 

Both are good options. WorldMark just offers a level of flexibility that the other programs do not have. You can extend your usage in years that you want to travel more, without having to commit to higher m/f in the long term.


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## ladycody (May 28, 2009)

Lordy Eric...sometimes we like to keep some of the _really_ cool numbers under wraps so that new folks arent beating us to the punch on exchanges.  :hysterical:   JUst kidding (sorta)....you're right on all counts.  WM offers alot more than most people realize or will take the time to figure out...bless their hearts.     I could say more....but admittedly wont.  

(hey...at least I'm honest about it...)


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## LLW (May 28, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> WorldMark vs Starwood is a real apple to orange comparision.
> 
> Your outlining the strategy to buy a "cheap" Starwood week in order to gain access to the Starwood network. So automatically your costs become:
> 
> ...


Actually, I know the $900 number was proposed by the other poster, but out of the 61 resorts on the books, that I counted, that have 2BRs, 47 (77%) have red season maintenance fees of $570 and blue of $350, including Monterey Bay, Anaheim, Fiji, Cabo, and many Oregon Coast oceanfronts. 11 (18%) more have red MF of $680, including Hawaii and Orlando. That means 95% have MF of $680 or less. *The difference between the ones with high and low MF is not whether they are high end, but whether the credit value was set by Trendwest or Wyndham*. *TW ===> low MF,  Wyndham ===> high MF*.




> And you do not need to by a large account. You can easily buy a 6k account for $2500. And there are numerous strategies for extending your WorldMark account to get more time at prices near maintenance fees. Few other programs offer that option. That is the value of WorldMark.
> 
> For instance I can essentially buy an unlimited number of flexchange weeks for about $260 each. Or an unlimited number of normal exchange weeks at $390. Red season 2 BR traders at $570.  Then add the $139 exchange fee for total cost of exchange. Try that with a Starwood week.



My MF, over the 2 accounts I have (the MF is cheaper if you have 1 account instead of 2, but there are advantages to having 2 accounts), is 5 cents per credit effective June 1, 2009. My Flexchanges, before exchange fee, cost me $200 each. I just came back from an exchange at Westin Ka'anapali that cost me $500 in MF (Request First), and one at Westin Princeville for $300 in MF (Deposit First), and those 2 weeks were back to back, each in a 2BR. If I had waited instead of taking them at about 7 or 8 months out, I could have gone for less. And in December I will have 2 back-to-back weeks (weeks 50 and 51) in Marriott Newport Coast Villas (which only has 2BRs), for a total MF of $800 for the 2 weeks.

Some owners have MF of just over 4 cents per credit.

As frequently mentioned on TUG, you can NOT rely on exchanges. But I am 150% happy with the value I get out of the WM resorts. The exchanges are _nice_ gravy. And in the foreseeable stably slim economic times, gravy that's not hard to get, if you know how. *For those WM owners who want to know, www.wmowners.com have an "incredible collection" (in the words of one major WM reseller  - thanks, Mike  ) of tips and tricks on how to maximize the value of your WM ownership.*



> Both are good options. WorldMark just offers a level of flexibility that the other programs do not have.


I agree wholeheartedly.


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## pefs65 (May 28, 2009)

wow what alot of great advice.
thank you for replying to my thread.

I think I am leaning toward WM because it has more properties within its system to go to.

SW while having probably more high end properties have fewer within there system at this time.

I also like the fact that MF are less with WM than SW.

Alot to think about.

Thanks all again


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## James1975NY (May 28, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> Pros (WorldMark):
> 
> More flexibility
> Lower m/f
> ...



Exactly how does the WorldMark program retail its value better?


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## LLW (May 28, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> I think I gave you that point. The standard WorldMark unit is not the same level of luxury as a standard Starwood unit. I Agree.



I also gave that point. I also said that if you want to be guaranteed a week in Starwood, buy Starwood.


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## LLW (May 28, 2009)

James1975NY said:


> Exactly how does the WorldMark program retail its value better?




I think he said "retain" better, not "retail" better.


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## ecwinch (May 28, 2009)

LLW said:


> My Flexchanges, before exchange fee, cost me $200 each. I just came back from an exchange at Westin Ka'anapali that cost me $500 in MF (Request First), and one at Westin Princeville for $300 in MF (Deposit First), and those 2 weeks were back to back, each in a 2BR.



I think the difference in our numbers might be housekeeping charges. I used the 5 cents per credit, like you did, and then added $60 for housekeeping.


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## ecwinch (May 28, 2009)

ladycody said:


> Lordy Eric...sometimes we like to keep some of the _really_ cool numbers under wraps so that new folks arent beating us to the punch on exchanges.  :hysterical:   JUst kidding (sorta)....you're right on all counts.  WM offers alot more than most people realize or will take the time to figure out...bless their hearts.     I could say more....but admittedly wont.
> 
> (hey...at least I'm honest about it...)



I understand.

The other side of the equation is that TUG members tend to be more involved owners, which is what we could use right now.

And trading power/cost is always subject to change. If your strategy is simply to trade, then I would only buy a WM if I felt the cost recovery window was relatively short (less that 10 years).


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## ecwinch (May 28, 2009)

pefs65 said:


> I think I am leaning toward WM because it has more properties within its system to go to.



You highlight a good point. The axiom on TUG for purchases is always "Buy where you want to go (or go 1 in 3 years)". Because most to the major timeshare programs have an internal priority - either through II or via an internal network - for those programs, the network of resorts you gain access to is more important.

For instance, you rarely see the top WorldMark locations in peak season on II or RCI. Places like Seattle, Marina Dunes, etc.

Same with Starwood at WSJ.

Still is true, but less so with the Marriotts.

So if you really want to go to those locations, your best bet is buy into that network. It is the reason I own a Marriott and a WorldMark.


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## alwysonvac (May 28, 2009)

*The Good, The Bad & The Ugly*



pefs65 said:


> wow what alot of great advice.
> thank you for replying to my thread.
> 
> I think I am leaning toward WM because it has more properties within its system to go to.
> ...




Whatever you do, don't rush into a decision. Learn as much as you can. Each timeshare system has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Starwood might have some high end properties *but....*
Improvements/Peeves - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78389
How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases? - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88159
Unsuccessful Harborside Reservation help me understand - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74125

Marriot might have lots of locations *but....*
What about Marriott drives you crazy!? - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52251
Marriott 13 month advance booking? - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46999
Marriott Newport Coast, getting your week - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54512

WorldMark might provide lots of flexibility *but....
*Why do you need Credit Manager? - http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=192306#192306
My reservation experience today - http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11836
Credit Dilution? Is it affecting availability? - http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80569#80569
Which Oregon and Washington resorts have air conditioning? - http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17503


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## LLW (May 28, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> I think the difference in our numbers might be housekeeping charges. I used the 5 cents per credit, like you did, and then added $60 for housekeeping.




Neither of us is right, then.  For a 10,000 credit, $500 exchange (Request First), there is one free HK token, so the HK is free. For a Flexchange, WM gives a studio, and the studio HK fee is $50. I don't pay for HK, so those were the costs for me. I thought about the HK fee, but thought mainly about the 10,000 credit exchanges, which has free HK. On the lower priced ones, you are right, you need to allocate the eventual HK fee.


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## Ryes (Jun 4, 2009)

LLW said:


> Actually, I know the $900 number was proposed by the other poster, but out of the 61 resorts on the books, that I counted, that have 2BRs, 47 (77%) have red season maintenance fees of $570 and blue of $350, including Monterey Bay, Anaheim, Fiji, Cabo, and many Oregon Coast oceanfronts. 11 (18%) more have red MF of $680, including Hawaii and Orlando. That means 95% have MF of $680 or less. *The difference between the ones with high and low MF is not whether they are high end, but whether the credit value was set by Trendwest or Wyndham*. *TW ===> low MF,  Wyndham ===> high MF*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi LLW  - I am confused...does this mean that if I want to purchase 10,000 credits for WM that if I shop around for credits attached to a resort that used to be run by trendwest, that the maintenance fees will be cheaper than the amounts listed for 10,000 credits, which seem to be 
7001 - 10,000 CREDITS        $570.54 
according to everything I could find on the web. I don't quite understand what you mean certain resorts have cheaper maintenance...i thought the credits were all the same i.e. not attached to any home resort...and that the maintenance for 10,000 would be identical....

I think you mean the worldmark resales that might be for a floating week in say worldmark aneheim (as opposed to credits?)...how would a two bedroom there for instance translate into credits...do you have to pay extra to trade a worldmark week into credits?  finally, is there anyway I can find out the annual maintenance of those types of weeks resorts for worldmark?

Thanks.


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## ecwinch (Jun 5, 2009)

Ryes said:


> Hi LLW  - I am confused...does this mean that if I want to purchase 10,000 credits for WM that if I shop around for credits attached to a resort that used to be run by trendwest, that the maintenance fees will be cheaper than the amounts listed for 10,000 credits, which seem to be
> 7001 - 10,000 CREDITS        $570.54
> according to everything I could find on the web. I don't quite understand what you mean certain resorts have cheaper maintenance...i thought the credits were all the same i.e. not attached to any home resort...and that the maintenance for 10,000 would be identical....
> 
> ...



The resort has no bearing on m/f like other timeshare programs. You would be purchasing a membership in WorldMark, The Club. The m/f are the same for all members with that amount of credits. Credits are not attached to a resort like the Wyndham points program. So you cannot shop around for lower m/f based on the resort like you can in Wyndham.

She is translating the number of credits it takes to reserve a certain unit size in a certain season at a specific resort into the m/f you would need to pay for that size of WM account. The credit requirements at the new resorts are higher. Wyndham built those newer resorts, and they require more credits. Trendwest built the older resorts, and the credits required for them are lower. So if I always want to go to a resort that requires 16000 credits, when I need a WM account that has at least 16000 credits and that will require a m/f of $900.

Clear as mud?


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## Cathyb (Jun 5, 2009)

Eric:  She could just plan using her credits every other year like we do -- we own 10,000 credits but EOY we end up with 20,000 and do the BIG trip then.  In fact next month we are staying in Victoria and Vancouver BC, Seattle, Seaside and Depoe Bay with those accumulated credits.


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## LLW (Jun 5, 2009)

Ryes said:


> Hi LLW  - I am confused...does this mean that if I want to purchase 10,000 credits for WM that if I shop around for credits attached to a resort that used to be run by trendwest, that the maintenance fees will be cheaper than the amounts listed for 10,000 credits, which seem to be
> 7001 - 10,000 CREDITS        $570.54
> according to everything I could find on the web. I don't quite understand what you mean certain resorts have cheaper maintenance...i thought the credits were all the same i.e. not attached to any home resort...and that the maintenance for 10,000 would be identical....
> 
> ...



Let me give an example:

WM has 2 resorts in Anaheim. Both very close to Disneyland. One is Dolphin's Cove, acquired in 2003. One is WM Anaheim, in service in 2008. A 2BR week at Dolphin's Cove requires 10,000 credits. A 2BR week at WM Anaheim requires 16,500 credits. The MF table may be found here on www.wmowners.com:

http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21585

The MF for 10,000 credits is $570.54. The MF for 16,500 credits is $894.12.


Any WM credits may be used at any WM locations, and the MF required is standard, but the credits required for some locations are higher.

The credits needed for each resort may be found here, on each resort's page:

http://www.worldmarktheclub.com/resorts/


Hope that helps.


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## cotraveller (Jun 5, 2009)

Or, unless you think you will visit the new Anaheim resort every year, you purchase the 10,000 credit account with the $570.00 annual fee.  If one year you decide that you want to go to the new Anaheim resort because it is getting much better reviews than Dolphins cove, you rent the additional 6,500 credits from another owner for $300 to $400.  That way your up front cost is lower and only have higher annual costs for those years you actually want to use more credits.


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## zcrider (Oct 23, 2009)

*WorldMark owners*

Can you pay your MF's with points?  Someone on Tug once posted on another thread what looked like you could, but I would like to know for sure?


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## LLW (Oct 23, 2009)

zcrider said:


> Can you pay your MF's with points?  Someone on Tug once posted on another thread what looked like you could, but I would like to know for sure?




You can _not_. And I don't think you will be able to in the near future.


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