# Continuing Care Retirement Communities



## clifffaith (Jul 15, 2017)

Do any of you TUG members live in a CCRC? Cliff had a virtual friend living at Stoneridge Creek in Pleasanton, CA. She is now a face to face friend after inviting us to visit her and her husband this week while we were semi-nearby while staying at the River Pointe timeshare in Napa. The development was beautiful, and assuming the numbers work for us because it was not inexpensive, I'd be delighted to live out my days in such a place. Cliff figures I'll die alone and our cats will eat me if he doesn't get us moved into a community where I have plenty of things to do, they'll feed me since I don't cook, and they'll know when it is time to encourage me to move from my personal dwelling to the assisted living area of the campus (he is 79, I'm 61, so presumably he will long pre-decease me). We are just at the very beginning of our research. The Pleasanton development has a sister community in San Juan Capistrano which is much closer to our Los Angeles home. When we get home from Napa we'll look into that community, which I believe is still in the early construction mode.


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## rapmarks (Jul 15, 2017)

I actually think we will start looking next year, in sw Florida 


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## Passepartout (Jul 15, 2017)

I'd like to explore these myself, but getting my DW to give up all her accumulated 'stuff' that represents bygone youth and memories, is probably something that isn't going to happen. It's tough to tell the (well grown) offspring that when one of us departs, to just have the 'mother of all' estate sales and order the biggest dumpster available for the rest.

Jim


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## clifffaith (Jul 15, 2017)

Not sure we could afford a three bedroom unit, but the two we saw (our friend's and then a friend of theirs that happened to be in the elevator as we were on our way up) had lots of room. And this facility also had separate storage lockers somewhere so your holiday decorations, etc, could also be put away. There were also "hotel units" on each floor so if you had a one bedroom you could still have a guest onsite. And 30 meals per month were included (in the independent living area) so if you went out to dinner one night, you could have your friend with you for dinner the next. Our friends were leaving for an Alaskan cruise, so feeding us on Thursday didn't "take food out of their mouths". No carry over of unused meals to the next month, but if you were going to be gone all month you could get a credit.


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## lizap (Jul 15, 2017)

We are getting close to retirement age, but have ruled out these types of communities for the most part until we get in our late 70s, if we make it that long. I think there are several factors going on here as you know.  The age difference is huge; I suspect your husband is of an age that this type community is more appropriate for. Will you be happy living in this type community? Also, I have been reading where property in these types of communities is harder to sell, should you want to after your husband passes.


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## clifffaith (Jul 15, 2017)

I only know about this one community, but we would need to buy/move in before Cliff hits 90. The maximum age for men is 89, I think she said 92 for women. At age 61 most of the residents we saw yesterday would be running rings around me between classes, clubs and outings. The units are "sold" by the property giving your estate 75% of what you bought in for (there is a sliding scale that hits the 75% return after about 7 years) and then reselling to the next person on the wait list. (Again, don't quote me on anything because we only had a very brief talk with the sales office because we will not be moving to this area, a 7 hour trip from Los Angeles). Prices are California real estate prices, as we've started talking about this we are also floating a move out of state.


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## b2bailey (Jul 15, 2017)

I put in a vote for the San Juan Capistrano location if it fits your needs. My question about such an arrangement, and it's pure curiosity because I don't have a spouse, what happens if one person needs the care provided in the assisted living facility while the other is still in the regular housing? It seems there would be two units being used during that period of time?


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## Talent312 (Jul 15, 2017)

Passepartout said:


> I'd like to explore these myself, but getting my DW to give up all her accumulated 'stuff' that represents bygone youth and memories, is probably something that isn't going to happen...



I hear that.
It's just the two of us, but we live in a 4BR house and need every inch of the closets and part of the garage, just to house our museum of historical clothing and artifacts -- that we might need someday.  <sigh>

.


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## clifffaith (Jul 15, 2017)

My belief is one of the reasons that couples would find the arrangement a good fit, especially with the age discrepancy Cliff and I have, is that we pay enough going in and then monthly per person, that when one goes to skilled nursing then you are occupying two units. Possibly the more able bodied partner would then want to move to a smaller unit. We can actually move in with my mom for an extra so much per month, as long as she moves in within the age limitation. The four cats are an issue, however! One is preferred, two so you don't have the trauma of giving up an extra cat. Our Scooter won't be with us that much longer (she's seventeen), but then we still have three. One of the good things about thinking about this now is not to accumulate or replace any more cats!


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## isisdave (Jul 16, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> I hear that.
> It's just the two of us, but we live in a 4BR house and need every inch of the closets and part of the garage, just to house our museum of historical clothing and artifacts -- that we might need someday.  <sigh>
> 
> .


I briefly explored downsizing to a smaller house, but renting an industrial-area "office" of about 1500 sf in which to conduct hobbies, etc. In our area, it turned out to be not cost-effective, but it might in some places, depending on relative pricing of residential/industrial space. At least it would get half your floor area out of sight half the day, and reduce cleaning costs and labor at home.

Near us, there's a complex of indoor RV-storage units, all about 15 feet wide and 60 feet long. You're not allowed to sleep there, but several RV-less people use them for workshops.  Some storage units will permit this too, as long as your hobby isn't welding or anything likely to start a fire.

So think outside the box!


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## WinniWoman (Jul 16, 2017)

We have looked at a couple In New Hampshire. Very preliminary for us as we are still working and also would have a house to sell. Expensive, and in two situations we did not like that you had to pay for meals even if you are not at the point of wanting a meal plan. (We are in our 60's).

In one you could live in a really nice cottage but had to drive (or walk) up a big hill to get to the dining room and tiny gym and to get your mail and if you had two cars you had to move your car in winter so they could plow! Well- how is this senior friendly? The community was isolated as well. They had apartments but no way would we live in them. Just not for us- we are used to being in a home. A condo we could see or a townhouse.

In another it was just cottages- no club house or pool or anything. The main campus was in another town- the one with the assisted living and skilled nursing care.  Too isolated. Several miles from town and the lake.

Again- really expensive- not just the buy in- but the monthly charges! Wow!

Then we looked at a 62+ community- we liked it- again- expensive. If you have to move you (or your heirs if you pass) get 95% of your buy in back. But again- monthly fees very expensive! I know what it costs at our current home to have our 700 foot driveway plowed - and the town here plows the road- we have a tiny lawn (though we live on 10.5 acres) My husband mows it in about 15 minutes. We have minimal landscaping- if any really- all natural. Doesn't cost much or involve work for any of it- nowhere near what the 62+ community charges in the monthly fees!

Well- there are tiny lawns around those cottages and minimal landscaping. And there was no pool or clubhouse or gym - just a church hall they use for activities. The lake is nearby but you have to drive. They do have transportation available to doctors and shopping. Ok - well a good thing is they take care of the outside AND the inside of the cottages. But when I asked how often they paint or change out the carpeting and so on- they surprisingly did not have a regular schedule for maintenance of those kinds of things. There was also a sinkhole on one of the lawns which made me leery of buying a lot there. 

And- of course- this was not a CCC.

So- we are still going to continue to check some more out but I am thinking we might just have to try to find a small one level town home or better yet a little cottage. If we are paying HIA fees I want to get our moneys' worth.

Or- we will have to look in another state, but that's a whole 'nother story..


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2017)

There is SO MUCH more to aging then just a warm bed and 2 squares a day.

My 92 yo aunt ... who I joined me for lunch yesterday at a local diner does NOT spend her days watching TV. She always is reading at least 2 hard back books at a time, does needlepoint and makes sure she watches TV News shows every morning. And she still lives in alone in her apartment. She has a private duty aide who does food shopping prepares most of her meals ... leaving prepared platters in her refrigerator for lunches. She cooks a simple early dinner plus a breakfast. Monday thru Friday. The aide used to work every other Saturday morning ... every other week .... for a hairdressing appointment and food shopping (which got to be TOO much for my aunt).

Auntie ... still has a neighborhood school girlfriend who graduated HS with her (it seems most kids where 16yo at HS graduation then) who DRIVES and they do things together. Let me tell you all, THAT IS THE SCARY PART ...she still DRIVES.

My aunt's youngest sister's (auntie is the last of her siblings still alive) husband is still alive and has a live in aide. Her BIL usually does something every week or two with together. HIS live in aide does the driving .... so it is more like the 3 of them, go out for a meal where the driving and going to, is all part of the day's adventure. And he is the same age as auntie.

And just to make sure Tuggers are really understanding this .... I have business in a little town where the High School is celebrating its 100 year anniversity. YES ... the HS building. And the local True Value hardware store is still run by a local family where the old man (dad of the kid who technically owns and runs the family business) ALSO graduated HS with my Auntie. Dad works MOST mornings at the store .... as his wife cleans up their house. And his Dad always asks, "How is Auntie doing?" And my answer is "Still above ground like you. And still running the show." He & auntie graduated HS together... same class as my aunt's other friends.

So these OLD 90+ year old PEOPLE are in a "continuing care" community... living where they always have lived ... same general places/homes that they grew up in ... and driving their relatives crazy. And I just HOPE I can live AS WELL AS THEY when & if I am at/near that age.


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## WinniWoman (Jul 16, 2017)

That is wonderful, Linda! I wish we could do the same but no one is here so we would be isolated. We know almost no one. Will be the same whereever we move. Which is why we will need to be in some kind of community or at least where there are people around that will notice if suddenly we "disappear". LOL!

And the home health care here is the pits. I worked in home care management most of my life and I can tell you it is incredibly expensive and unreliable unless you hit it just right with a good person.


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## clifffaith (Jul 16, 2017)

I often thought that when Cliff is gone I'd sign up for some sort of medical alert system that would check on me if I didn't check in each day by a certain hour (the CCRC we looked at has a button to push to let them know you woke up that morning). My main issue is having cats that need care if I woke up dead like a family friend did this January--went to bed feeling fine and husband woke up to find she'd died during the night.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2017)

Private duty in my post above is NOT via an agency. PRIVATE arrangements are private deals between individuals. When my mother had to be supervised ALL the time (dementia) and my father was REQUIRED to allow people into the house (my mother dialed ZERO on the phone and told the operator a STRANGE MAN was in her house) ... 5+ police cars in the driveway by the time I got there.

I knew my dad would DRIVE an agency nuts .... I had to find people who would put up with HIM to take care of my passive/quiet mother. So the first person was a woman who owed me RENT money ... and her husband WAS trying to get his wife to understand, she HAD to work verses being the stay-at-home MOM. So we (me & her husband) had MONTHS of my Dad micro-managing this woman and her quitting every 2 or 3 weeks. I would talk to her husband, he would tell me WHAT my dad was doing AND I would yell at my Dad & her husband would tell his wife to GET BACK to work the next day. She LIKED my mom & the two of them would watch the afternoon soap stories....my Mom pointing at the TV, going "oh,oh" and the aide telling the storyline or some other comment ... my Mom being engaged in her very limited world.

Eventually, we had almost round the clock people into the house ... but when my mother got too UNSTABLE on her feet and my mom collapsed/dropped to the floor ... dead weight drop several times ... with both my dad & one of the aides on either side of her holding her arms.... I knew my dad realized she HAD to be moved to a nursing home. And I called another sister (the Texas one) to FLY home the next day .. to handhold my dad in moving her into a nursing home. She lived another 13 months there ... slowing slipping away...and my dad visiting her multiple times a day at first and then, less & less.

But all along .. til the day she passed away ... I always had to instruct the staff ... NEVER, NEVER ask about a SON or anything about having a SON. Daughter(s) all day long ... NEVER, NEVER about SON(s). My mother never got over her 2nd son dying via a crib death at 3 months of age ... he was 3 years younger than me. She would totally become agitated for hours. And my older brother was just the most valued person in her life ... she was afraid he would gone, too. And it never helped that my surviving brother 'gets' lost in his own schedule of life ... only plan that he is going anywhere WHEN he walks in thru the door.


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## VacationForever (Jul 16, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> There is SO MUCH more to aging then just a warm bed and 2 squares a day.
> 
> My 92 yo aunt ... who I joined me for lunch yesterday at a local diner does NOT spend her days watching TV. She always is reading at least 2 hard back books at a time, does needlepoint and makes sure she watches TV News shows every morning. And she still lives in alone in her apartment. She has a private duty aide who does food shopping prepares most of her meals ... leaving prepared platters in her refrigerator for lunches. She cooks a simple early dinner plus a breakfast. Monday thru Friday. The aide used to work every other Saturday morning ... every other week .... for a hairdressing appointment and food shopping (which got to be TOO much for my aunt).
> 
> ...



Linda,

Thanks for sharing.  That is pretty much our plan. Age in place with a private duty home care aide if or when we no longer want or be able to cook and clean.  We bought LTCI for this reason.  We are introverts and in no way we want to move into community type living.  Our condo is single level, no steps unless you wish to use, in the entire building.

Private duty means private pay, not through Medicare, as Medicare does not pay for this type of work.  We always go through a business to ensure that we do not become an employer.


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## WinniWoman (Jul 16, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Linda,
> 
> Thanks for sharing.  That is pretty much our plan. Age in place with a private duty home care aide if or when we no longer want or be able to cook and clean.  We bought LTCI for this reason.  We are introverts and in no way we want to move into community type living.  Our condo is single level, no steps unless you wish to use, in the entire building.
> 
> Private duty means private pay, not through Medicare, as Medicare does not pay for this type of work.  We always go through a business to ensure that we do not become an employer.




We are introverts also, and, besides the privacy issue, I also don't like the idea of someone in our home ready to steal and take advantage of us. Hard to trust strangers.

I pretty much don't like any of the choices. We are going to have a tough time with the aging thing. LOL!


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## lizap (Jul 16, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Private duty in my post above is NOT via an agency. PRIVATE arrangements are private deals between individuals. When my mother had to be supervised ALL the time (dementia) and my father was REQUIRED to allow people into the house (my mother dialed ZERO on the phone and told the operator a STRANGE MAN was in her house) ... 5+ police cars in the driveway by the time I got there.
> 
> I knew my dad would DRIVE an agency nuts .... I had to find people who would put up with HIM to take care of my passive/quiet mother. So the first person was a woman who owed me RENT money ... and her husband WAS trying to get his wife to understand, she HAD to work verses being the stay-at-home MOM. So we (me & her husband) had MONTHS of my Dad micro-managing this woman and her quitting every 2 or 3 weeks. I would talk to her husband, he would tell me WHAT my dad was doing AND I would yell at my Dad & her husband would tell his wife to GET BACK to work the next day. She LIKED my mom & the two of them would watch the afternoon soap stories....my Mom pointing at the TV, going "oh,oh" and the aide telling the storyline or some other comment ... my Mom being engaged in her very limited world.
> 
> ...



Linda, it is not always gender specific.  In our mom's later years, my sister did almost nothing.  It was my brother and me that provided intensive care for her. He was wonderful - don't know what I would have done without him.


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## lizap (Jul 16, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Linda,
> 
> Thanks for sharing.  That is pretty much our plan. Age in place with a private duty home care aide if or when we no longer want or be able to cook and clean.  We bought LTCI for this reason.  We are introverts and in no way we want to move into community type living.  Our condo is single level, no steps unless you wish to use, in the entire building.
> 
> Private duty means private pay, not through Medicare, as Medicare does not pay for this type of work.  We always go through a business to ensure that we do not become an employer.



If you are planning on private pay, I hope you have alot of money, and I mean alot.  We had promised our mom we would not put her in a nursing home.  Our mom was relatively well off with an excellent retirement, but when you need round-the-clock care, it goes fast, very fast..


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## VacationForever (Jul 16, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> We are introverts also, and, besides the privacy issue, I also don't like the idea of someone in our home ready to steal and take advantage of us. Hard to trust strangers.
> 
> I pretty much don't like any of the choices. We are going to have a tough time with the aging thing. LOL!


One key reason of using a good agency.  My son wants me to move in with him, although I prefer to have him move in with me, if my husband goes before I do.  We also have a significant gap in age.


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## VacationForever (Jul 16, 2017)

lizap said:


> If you are planning on private pay, I hope you have alot of money, and I mean alot.  We had promised our mom we would not put her in a nursing home.  Our mom was relatively well off with an excellent retirement, but when you need round-the-clock care, it goes fast, very fast..


We both have high value LTCI.


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## WinniWoman (Jul 16, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> One key reason of using a good agency.  My son wants me to move in with him, although I prefer to have him move in with me, if my husband goes before I do.  We also have a significant gap in age.




Believe me. I was a manager and District manager for several agencies ranging from a national one to a mom and pop to a regional one- over 20 years. They all pull from the same pool of people. In some areas of the country you might have a nicer pool than others. Some states have stricter licensing requirements for both the agency and the personnel than others. 

You pay the agency like $25 per hour, they maybe pay the aide like $12-$15 per hour. (A lot more for nurses of course.) 
That could be a decent wage or a very low wage depending on the area and thus that will also have a big affect the type of person that is hired. In some states like NY, the aide is not allowed to drive her car with the "patient" in it due to liability issues. The aide can drive the "patient's" car however.

And, because a lot of home care jobs are per diem or part-time, again- it attracts a different type of person and sometimes that person does not take the job very seriously. Many need the flexibility because their lives are complicated and they have problems at home and you quickly learn this.

This all said, if you are lucky you might get a wonderful, caring, trustworthy individual.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2017)

lizap said:


> If you are planning on private pay, I hope you have alot of money, and I mean alot.  We had promised our mom we would not put her in a nursing home.  Our mom was relatively well off with an excellent retirement, but when you need round-the-clock care, it goes fast, very fast..



AND that is extremely true. My dad paid for care for my mother; he qualified for LTC insurance. I have LTC policy... covering 3 years. Mom was home care for 2+ years; nursing home for almost 18 months before passing.

My mom did not qualify for LTC when he realized my mom had memory issues. But my sister, the RN who lives 3000 miles away, decided I did NOT need to know my mom was a 'raging, untreated diabetic' health status ... a BIG cause of memory issues. My mom was tall and skinny ...  never even 5 pounds overweight. As for her care, I found people .. to care for her in the home. One was a tenant who was unemployed ... to earn money to pay her rent; another was a girl whose friend was a waitress working a diner; another was a group of my TX sister's friend's friend who organized a rotating crew from her hospital workplace for the overnight shift. CASH works.

My 92 yo last person (standing of my Dad's 4 other siblings) ... is in GREAT HEALTH with a near-perfect health. Of course, she NEVER has been overweight, doesn't drink, walked regularly as exercise and eats a great diet ... salads, soups, few red meats, not a drinker, few sweets.

As for me, I have a 3 year LTC policy. And my local nephews ... I try very hard to be on their 'A' list for relatives. 

PS And I lost 40+ pounds 5 or so years ago ... and YES, I was miserable ... started with on the QVC "lose weight" 30 days nurtra-system program. At least, I learned 'portion control', eat 5 small meals a day and drink lots of water. And I total EVERYONE, "I am on a diet; I am miserable; I have to LOSE weight. Got it?"


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## lizap (Jul 16, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> We both have high value LTCI.



Not to sound too negative, but.. LTCI is better than nothing but it's not a sure thing. For example, only as good as the financial soundness of the insurance company. Usually, they will only pay for certain things and for a limited time period. LTCI companies can drastically raise premiums as many have been doing in recent years. If possible, it is best to have a sizable nest egg to supplement LTCI.


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## VacationForever (Jul 16, 2017)

lizap said:


> Not to sound too negative, but.. LTCI is better than nothing but it's not a sure thing. For example, only as good as the financial soundness of the insurance company. Usually, they will only pay for certain things and for a limited time period. LTCI companies can drastically raise premiums as many have been doing in recent years. If possible, it is best to have a sizable nest egg to supplement LTCI.


True.  It is all about risk mitigation.  We are pretty sure we will do alright whatever happens.


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## taffy19 (Jul 16, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> I often thought that when Cliff is gone I'd sign up for some sort of medical alert system that would check on me if I didn't check in each day by a certain hour (the CCRC we looked at has a button to push to let them know you woke up that morning). My main issue is having cats that need care if I woke up dead like a family friend did this January--went to bed feeling fine and husband woke up to find she'd died during the night.


You need to put that in your trust or will so they are not let out on the street like some relatives do with cats mainly.  Ask your Vet as he may know who to get in touch with.

I read it once in one of the charity organizations.  It may have been "Alley Cat Allies" or other ones that we subscribe to.  I will try to find it because it makes common sense.  This is another reason why we do not want pets anymore because it will be expensive.

PS.  I found some information for dogs but will look further if I can find it for cats too because I have read it.

PPS.  I quickly looked through a few charity organizations that we are familiar with but cannot find it so quickly.  Put the sentence "provide for cats in a will or trust" in Google Search and you will find websites where you can read about it.  Even NOLO where you can prepare the document yourself but you have to know a person who is willing to take care of them.


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## isisdave (Jul 18, 2017)

And regarding medical alert systems, if you just want a daily check-in, friends often organize a calling exchange or circle to do this.

If I were living alone at a critical age in a place where I might not expect anyone to check for 24 hours, though, I'd want a wearable alert system. The idea of lying on the floor for a day -- heck, for an hour -- is pretty scary.


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## lizap (Jul 18, 2017)

isisdave said:


> And regarding medical alert systems, if you just want a daily check-in, friends often organize a calling exchange or circle to do this.
> 
> If I were living alone at a critical age in a place where I might not expect anyone to check for 24 hours, though, I'd want a wearable alert system. The idea of lying on the floor for a day -- heck, for an hour -- is pretty scary.



I'm convinced there's no substitute for a family member checking on you in your later years. Unfortunately, millennials don't seem to be so inclined.


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## WinniWoman (Jul 18, 2017)

And Amazon Echo has an "Ask My Buddy" skill where you can set it up to call, text and email people you choose in case of a problem. But you have to be within earshot of the Echo to ask her to do so.


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## Carol C (Jul 20, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> I often thought that when Cliff is gone I'd sign up for some sort of medical alert system that would check on me if I didn't check in each day by a certain hour (the CCRC we looked at has a button to push to let them know you woke up that morning). My main issue is having cats that need care if I woke up dead like a family friend did this January--went to bed feeling fine and husband woke up to find she'd died during the night.



Have to say my wish is to go in my sleep. Death doesn't scare me but a gruesome painful demise is not appealing. I like that you think about your cats so much...I too am a cat lady. My cats would learn first how to open the frig before they'd resort to eating me...I think/hope!


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## WinniWoman (Jul 20, 2017)

Carol C said:


> Have to say my wish is to go in my sleep. Death doesn't scare me but a gruesome painful demise is not appealing. I like that you think about your cats so much...I too am a cat lady. My cats would learn first how to open the frig before they'd resort to eating me...I think/hope!



Confession: I have a little paper on my night stand with a healing stone on it that says "Let Me Die Before I Wake". Unfortunately, most people do not die this way.


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## Passepartout (Jul 20, 2017)

The vast majority of people, if asked, will say they would prefer to die in their sleep. Professionals who deal with such things call it, "The kiss of an angel". Sadly, only about one person in 6 passes this way. The majority of us will die in some sort of care facility hooked up to hoses, wires and monitors. This is a good reason to make your desires for care known to the person you've designated to ask in your behalf when you are no longer able. This is a Healthcare Power of Attorney, and should be included with your will and General Power of Attorney. Don't keep it a secret and spring it on an unsuspecting child or friend when the need arises.

Time to review those papers you put 'somewhere'.

Jim


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## VacationForever (Jul 20, 2017)

Passepartout said:


> The vast majority of people, if asked, will say they would prefer to die in their sleep. Professionals who deal with such things call it, "The kiss of an angel". Sadly, only about one person in 6 passes this way. The majority of us will die in some sort of care facility hooked up to hoses, wires and monitors. This is a good reason to make your desires for care known to the person you've designated to ask in your behalf when you are no longer able. This is a Healthcare Power of Attorney, and should be included with your will and General Power of Attorney. Don't keep it a secret and spring it on an unsuspecting child or friend when the need arises.
> 
> Time to review those papers you put 'somewhere'.
> 
> Jim


From my experience, the hospital often discharges a dying patient home when they indicate that "there was nothing they could do for the patient".  Hospital beds are expensive and they discharge dying patients home unless the patients (or POAs) want to move into a hospice.  Gone are the days where most people die in the hospitals.


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## rapmarks (Jul 20, 2017)

Linda, thanks fir your story.  My mother hated the woman we hired,  would not close her eyes for a minute.  One day she kind if went cuckoo, and dialed 911 and asked if she was dying.  Police came to door and we had to take my mom to ER.  She never returned home again


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lizap (Jul 20, 2017)

Carol C said:


> Have to say my wish is to go in my sleep. Death doesn't scare me but a gruesome painful demise is not appealing. I like that you think about your cats so much...I too am a cat lady. My cats would learn first how to open the frig before they'd resort to eating me...I think/hope!



That was my mom's wish too. Unfortunately she went through 2 years of hell before she died.


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## clifffaith (Jul 20, 2017)

A family friend of over 55 years died in her sleep this January. Woke up dead next to her husband. It was a shock to all because she had no medical issues, but we all agreed that at 86 wasn't that a good way to go. We were over at my folks house for lunch today -- I swear Dad is skinnier than he was when we last saw them July 2nd (he was normal to over weight by 30 pounds his entire adult life). That was our discussion on the way home -- it would sure be easier on everyone if he simply didn't wake up one morning. He is obviously wasting away although they can't find anything wrong with him other than he is quite weak and can only walk very short distances with the help of a cane.

So at lunch Mom hands me a flyer that came in their mail in the last few days. I'll be darned if it isn't from the same folks who run the Pleasanton CCRC. In addition to the Capistrano facility, the map shows Thousand Oaks, Fullerton, Carlsbad and San Diego -- all much closer to us than Pleasanton. I've signed us up for lunch at the local country club to hear a formal presentation.  We also bought a Kindle book on CCRC's -- can't remember the last time I sat down for four hours and read something cover. I had concerns about what happens if the place doesn't manage its money and goes bankrupt, and the book covered bankruptcies and construction and on going funding issues in great detail.


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## rapmarks (Jul 20, 2017)

My uncle died last week.  He was on dialysis and not in the greatest health.  His daughter had a new pontoon boat and he wanted to see it.  They took him there and there were pictures on Facebook of him enjoying the day and holding the new great grandchild.  When they got home he collapsed getting out of the car.  My aunt tried cpr but couldn't revive him.   He was my mothers baby brother, my mother suffered greatly her last six months and I say it was a great way to go.


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## VacationForever (Jul 21, 2017)

Going back to CCRC, I have always been apprehensive of such communities where you have to buy into it and then the owner/resident passes away, the home is sold again at a fraction.  Many decades ago, I read about a case where the CCRC was bumping off residents so that the home can be sold again to profit the organization.  Obviously I have been influenced/traumatized by that case but that has resulted in my never wanting to buy into such a place.


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## clifffaith (Jul 21, 2017)

The developments we are looking at now have a sliding scale for the return of the entrance fee to the occupants' heirs, the minimum being a 75% return after about 6 or 7 years. I can't see them bumping someone off because they'd have to give the vast majority of the money back!


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## Blues (Jul 21, 2017)

We're just moving my father in law to a retirement community.  You have to be fully capable of caring for your self when you move in (except, apparently, the memory wing for Alzheimers patients).  But after that, if you need services, they'll bring those services in to the room you're occupying.  Their sales pitch is that once you move in, you don't have to move units until you die or go to hospice.  It's a brand new facility, so we'll see how it goes.

I'm familiar with those places that charge a large fee upfront, and then refund a fraction.  We have several around here, with buy-ins in the hundreds of K.  But another selling point of this one is that there's no upfront cost.  Just a pretty high monthly cost.  

Anyway, it looks great, brand new, and FIL is looking forward to moving in.  Always a plus when dealing with the older generation.


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## clifffaith (Jul 21, 2017)

The CCRC book I read mentioned age-in-place communities where you never had to move out of your own unit (unless you really needed hospital type care). The author's comment was that it was great as healthy adults were moving in, but then as everyone started to age, it was hard to interest new healthy adults because they'd see too many health care workers and wheel chairs to want to move in themselves.


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## VacationForever (Jul 21, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> The CCRC book I read mentioned age-in-place communities where you never had to move out of your own unit (unless you really needed hospital type care). The author's comment was that it was great as healthy adults were moving in, but then as everyone started to age, it was hard to interest new healthy adults because they'd see too many health care workers and wheel chairs to want to move in themselves.



Very true.  My late mother-in-law moved into one after her companion/sister passed away.  She was very depressed seeing how frail the others were and she was one of the more able bodied residents at that time and she knew that she was never going to move to another home again.  She refused to join them in trivial group games (ball throwing game in their wheelchairs) and ended up staying in her room most of the time.  Not a place I recommend to anyone unless as a last resort.  The whole place was depressing, even for us.  I am a strong proponent of aging in place/at home.


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## Blues (Jul 21, 2017)

I appreciate the comments, really.  And each to their own, I guess.  But FIL is about to turn 88, so I don't think we have to worry about what happens 5 or 10 years down the road.  But right now, he's really healthy.  He does ballroom dancing, rock'n'roll dancing, goes to the gym, and does 2-3 mile walks.  He's attended several pre-move-in gatherings that they held at local restaurants.  And as an older male who dances, he's already in high demand ;-).  Hence the reason he's really looking forward to it.  The ratio of eligible females to males is pretty high.


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## clifffaith (Aug 4, 2017)

Our lunch meeting with the CCRC representative was packed on Wednesday. He indicated they usually get 3-5 tables of interested people, they not only had 20 tables full, they also had added an afternoon meeting with the overflow. But being that the closest community is a 90 minute drive from where the meeting was held, I think geography may be a non- starter for many folks. During Q&A someone asked the question I'd wondered about -- can you get in for less money if you give up a portion of the 75% returned to your heirs upon your demise. Answer was yes.  Since my high school and a pet rescue operation are my heirs, that may help pave the way to affordability for us. We have pretty much decided we'll do this in about 8 years or so, just not with which community. Cliff happened to send a friend a link to CCRCs in Wikipedia and down at the bottom of that article there were several dozen citations to the original source material that were excellent reading.


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## WinniWoman (Aug 5, 2017)

We visited one in New Hampshire this week while we are on vacation. We "somewhat" liked it. We liked the independent living cottages. The one thing we did not like is they have electric heat. Also- they do not have central air- just window units. And- not a single one had a back-up generator, though it was explained that they are on the same grid as the hospital, so power is restored there first. Needless to say no gas fireplace either.

They had a therapy pool, but- well- its was very much a therapy pool and not a recreational pool- small. They had a gym and supposedly a lot of activities go on there. While we were there it seemed quiet. Didn't t see anyone (residents) walking around or anything like that, except a couple at the apartment building- apartments are out for us.

What I find amazing is that they do not have a schedule for renovations/updates over the years. Let's say you buy in at 68 years old and live for 25 years.  Well- when do they come back in and paint? Replace the carpeting/flooring? Change out the kitchen? Etc. Just from owning timeshares I know that there should be some sort of schedule for those kinds of things.

I always get a surprised look when I ask that question at these places. Also- the monthly charges still make me crazy. $1300-$2000 per month. Does not include utilities. Buy in ranges from $100,000+ to close to $300,000 whether or not you just want the cottages with no access to the CC part or want the whole package. With that, if you run out of money you still get to live there forever- the cottage or the nursing home or whatever.

Well- we would be sure to run out of money with those fees! LOL!

My husband says we should just look at one level small homes in a regular community. We don't like being tied in to HOA fees if we can help it. We could always hire a handy man on an as needed basis. Try to make sure we are near medical services.


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## bogey21 (Aug 5, 2017)

This is something I really know something about as I live in a CCRC.  The one I live in is Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth, TX.  Trinity Terrace is managed by Pacific Retirement Services, Medford, OR.  Pacific Retirement Services manages something like 20 CCRCs most of which are on the West Coast.

When I moved into my one bedroom apartment in Trinity Terrace in 2000 the *nonrefundable* front end fee was $65,000 and my monthly fee was roughly $1,600.  Today my monthly fee is roughly $2,500.  Trinity Terrace has now added two new towers with larger units with *partly refundable* front end fees ranging somewhere between $700,000 and $1,000,000.  I don't know how much the monthly fees for these units are other than that they are high.  The amount of the front end fee depends on how much (70%, 80% or 90%) is refunded to your heirs when you die.

The monthly fees although large cover everything;i.e meals, utilities, cleaning, laundry, etc.  *Also note* that somewhere between 30% and 50% of your month end fee is tax deductible as prepaid medical expenses.  The percentage has something to do with the ratio of expenses for the Extended Care Facility (total care) and the total expenses of the entire operation.

There are 3 levels of care at Trinity Terrace, Independent Living, Extended Living and one somewhere in between for those who need help with daily functions but not so much help as to require moving in the Extended Care facility.

My status is Independent Living which means I come and go whenever I want.  When I leave the facility say to spend a week at my Son's house or a month in Florida all I do is let them know I will be gone.

The food is fabulous, activities are numerous; there is a fitness facility and pool on site; transportation for Doctor visits, etc is provided. In addition there is also a Library and Computer Room.

The nice thing about my contract which I signed in 2000 is that if I run out of money in the normal course of events; i.e. I didn't squander it stupidly, Trinity Terrace is contractually obligated to cover all or part of my monthly fees.

You can probably tell from the above that I am 150% sold on the CCRC concept.  In my opinion it is far superior to Long Term Care Insurance and a nursing home when needed.

George


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## rapmarks (Aug 5, 2017)

I remember taking my mother in law to various communities.  She had Alzheimer's and thought that we were looking and bringing her along for her opinion.  She only liked one place, where she saw people gathering after lunch, and she thought it was nice.  Step son would not allow her to go there, it wasn't good enough.  Moved her to a fancy place.  She hated it and kept calling for a taxi to take her home.  Plus she could not figure out how to work the elevator.  She moved out in two weeks, and it cost her four thousand dollars. Finally moved to a small home that had five residents.  She wanted to go home but gradually came to believe it was her home, and she had several guests.  She was always waiting for her deceased husband to come home, he was out looking for a new home.  I always felt she would have been better off in the place she liked best.


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## clifffaith (Aug 5, 2017)

George, thanks so much for posting. But you've burst our bubble! Part of our research is to consider moving out of California where high real estate prices are part of the reason for the high entrance fees. I'd gave to hog tie Cliff to move him back to Texas where he spent the first 20 years of his life, but the entrance fee at your new towers is what we are seeing here, so no danger of a move there, I guess.

The tax deductible pre-paid medical expenses hadn't sunk in with me yet, although I now recall that was part of the answer to someone asking if the CCRC counted toward the $500K per couple that can be taken out of your home sale without incurring capital gains. The CCRC would not count as a new home purchase exempt from capital gains.


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## rapmarks (Aug 5, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> George, thanks so much for posting. But you've burst our bubble! Part of our research is to consider moving out of California where high real estate prices are part of the reason for the high entrance fees. I'd gave to hog tie Cliff to move him back to Texas where he spent the first 20 years of his life, but the entrance fee at your new towers is what we are seeing here, so no danger of a move there, I guess.
> 
> The tax deductible pre-paid medical expenses hadn't sunk in with me yet, although I now recall that was part of the answer to someone asking if the CCRC counted toward the $500K per couple that can be taken out of your home sale without incurring capital gains. The CCRC would not count as a new home purchase exempt from capital gains.



I am not sure if you are expecting gains on the CCRC In The future, but don't forget the 500k is above and beyond your cost basis.  Since you are in California you may have a profit like that, but it is only the amount above the 500k profit that is taxed as capital gains.  


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## clifffaith (Aug 5, 2017)

No profit here since we are on our sixth home in 30 years (last four within a ten minute drive from each other). But lots of folks at our lunch meeting have been in their homes 40+ years. Their homes went from $60-$100K when they bought to 1.5 to 2 million in that time.


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## bogey21 (Aug 6, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Going back to CCRC, I have always been apprehensive of such communities where you have to buy into it and then the owner/resident passes away, the home is sold again at a fraction.



The way it works at the CCRC where I live is that when one dies the heirs wait until the Marketing Department "sells" the unit to a new resident at the listed price.  The heirs then get their 70%. 80% or 90% of the amount paid based on the original contact.  At Trinity Terrace this doesn't take long as there is a long waiting list to buy in.

George


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## clifffaith (Aug 6, 2017)

So this is interesting. As we continue our research Cliff keeps wanting us to go look at the Brookdale facility that is literally around the block from my mom and dad. I say no way, we've seen the campus living with the other brand, I'm not going to consider something without an expansive campus. And besides, when we sold blinds there (our business is window coverings) when they were known as the Pacific Inn you loved to joke how at 11:30AM you had better be out of the way or you'd be trampled by all the walkers and wheel chairs headed to lunch. That does not say independent living to me. But he sends me an email with a link to Brookdale anyway.  So I click on CCRC and 9 facilities come up within 250 miles of our Los Angeles home. This does not include the one close to mom and dad. On closer inspection, apparently you can call yourself a CCRC, but independent living does not have to be part of the package. Eight out of nine start with assisted living and then flow down into memory care and skilled nursing care. Only one, in Bakersfield, has actual independent living. And I'd die at home and let the cats eat me before I'd move to Bakersfield!


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## VacationForever (Aug 6, 2017)

In Northern CA, we did not come across a single one of these places that many of you are exploring or staying at, where you actually pay a lump sum to buy into a community.   It was very popular in Australia when friends of ours were looking at.  I have seen alot of CCR which is a monthly fee plus a menu of services, and the set up can start from independent living, to assisted living, and possibly memory care units and even skilled nursing facility where there are registered nurses and resident doctors.  I have seen high end independent living where the resident stays at a small house standalone (cottages) plus optional fee for meals to lower end independent living which looks more like an apartment.


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## clifffaith (Aug 18, 2017)

Yesterday we visited the sales building next to the plot of land that will become Reata Glen in San Juan Capistrano, CA. Well sort of SJC. City gave them such a hard time that they ditched the land they'd bought in town and are now in an unincorporated area adjacent to SJC. Our purpose for the meeting was to see if we could even swing it financially. I'd originally told them 8-10 years (before Cliff hits the age 90 cut off for men), but he surprised me a few days ago with wanting to move in five years. And of course they are trying to fill the facility in the first quarter of 2019 when they expect to be finished with the 400 units and all the amenities. A bit early for us -- Mom is in good health except for the emergency cornea transplant she is having today ( she wasn't amused when I told her at least she was getting her dibs in before all the burned cornea eclipse folks) and Dad is, to quote Cliff, "circling the drain", so we must see to their needs first. 

Using today's investment assets and the Zillow value of our home less the outstanding mortgage and our SS income, the 18 year age difference works against us with the projection that I'd likely run out of funds four years before my death. That number balances out when we move in later than 2019 and when we factor in not having any heirs, so rather than the estate getting back 75% of the entrance fee it gets something less. We were told we likely could move in with three cats  (our four are 17, 10, 8, 5) as long as we were headed toward one and they would age out in a timely manner.

We love Santa Fe and have looked online and requested info on the CCRC there. But the entrance fee would have to be considerably less than the +/- $750K for a two bed/two bath that we saw at both CA facilities we looked at to make us move where it gets cold in winter.


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## VacationForever (Aug 18, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> Yesterday we visited the sales building next to the plot of land that will become Reata Glen in San Juan Capistrano, CA. Well sort of SJC. City gave them such a hard time that they ditched the land they'd bought in town and are now in an unincorporated area adjacent to SJC. Our purpose for the meeting was to see if we could even swing it financially. I'd originally told them 8-10 years (before Cliff hits the age 90 cut off for men), but he surprised me a few days ago with wanting to move in five years. And of course they are trying to fill the facility in the first quarter of 2019 when they expect to be finished with the 400 units and all the amenities. A bit early for us -- Mom is in good health except for the emergency cornea transplant she is having today ( she wasn't amused when I told her at least she was getting her dibs in before all the burned cornea eclipse folks) and Dad is, to quote Cliff, "circling the drain", so we must see to their needs first.
> 
> Using today's investment assets and the Zillow value of our home less the outstanding mortgage and our SS income, the 18 year age difference works against us with the projection that I'd likely run out of funds four years before my death. That number balances out when we move in later than 2019 and when we factor in not having any heirs, so rather than the estate getting back 75% of the entrance fee it gets something less. We were told we likely could move in with three cats  (our four are 17, 10, 8, 5) as long as we were headed toward one and they would age out in a timely manner.
> 
> We love Santa Fe and have looked online and requested info on the CCRC there. But the entrance fee would have to be considerably less than the +/- $750K for a two bed/two bath that we saw at both CA facilities we looked at to make us move where it gets cold in winter.



In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in?  Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.


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## rapmarks (Aug 18, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in?  Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.



Yes, your return on the money if invested would really help cover the fees.


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## VacationForever (Aug 18, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> Yes, your return on the money if invested would really help cover the fees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Exactly.  From my readings, there is often less oversight with the buy-in CCRC model.

http://www.kiplinger.com/article/re...00-risks-and-rewards-of-moving-to-a-ccrc.html


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## bogey21 (Aug 19, 2017)

I traveled a lot during my working career and made the time to visit 10 or 12 different CCRCs in many different states during the 4 or 5 years prior to my retirement.  Seeing the difference in facilities, activities, etc. was only part of the benefit.  The biggest benefit I got out of my visits was being able to compare the costs and the different financial arrangements.  Trust me.  They were all over the board.  This all paid off when I made my decision and chose Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth.

George


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## clifffaith (Aug 19, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in?  Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.



We are still really just at the beginning of our explorations, but we haven't come across any as yet that have the full range of services from independent living to nursing care that don't have a buy-in. And of course at this point I have been dazzled by the resort-type living at Stoneridge Creek and Reata Glen (owned by the same investors).


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## rapmarks (Aug 19, 2017)

My aunts were in sunrise, but I don't know if there was a buy in. They sure nickled and dimed  you there


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## VacationForever (Aug 19, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> My aunts were in sunrise, but I don't know if there was a buy in. They sure nickled and dimed  you there
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


From everything I know Sunrise is straight forward fee based, no buy in.


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## VacationForever (Aug 19, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> We are still really just at the beginning of our explorations, but we haven't come across any as yet that have the full range of services from independent living to nursing care that don't have a buy-in. And of course at this point I have been dazzled by the resort-type living at Stoneridge Creek and Reata Glen (owned by the same investors).


They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K.  The concept of buy in just does not jive with me.  We spent 8+ years in the elder care industry and know what to stay away from.  The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be.  Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there.  In the N. CA area that we were in, there were many CCRCs which were pure fee based, from independent to assisted living and the memory care.  Some have skilled nursing care.  Be warned that most of these setup have high incidents of norovirus, MRSA etc.  We intend to age at home and pay for home care unless we absolutely cannot stay home, like requiring skilled nursing care or if dementia results in one of us being violent.  We both have high value long term care insurances, with an inflation rider.  We know how much home care costs and so we are prepared.


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## WinniWoman (Aug 19, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K.  The concept of buy in just does not jive with me.  We spent 8+ years in the elder care industry and know what to stay away from.  The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be.  Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there.  In the N. CA area that we were in, there were many CCRCs which were pure fee based, from independent to assisted living and the memory care.  Some have skilled nursing care.  Be warned that most of these setup have high incidents of norovirus, MRSA etc.  We intend to age at home and pay for home care unless we absolutely cannot stay home, like requiring skilled nursing care or if dementia results in one of us being violent.  We both have high value long term care insurances, with an inflation rider.  We know how much home care costs and so we are prepared.




Just keep in mind- and I was in home care for most of my life- management- it is in no way reliable and consistent. You really have to be lucky to get that ideal someone.


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## clifffaith (Aug 19, 2017)

The issue for us is that Cliff knows I will become a hermit, and with our age difference that could be for easily 20 years, and he wants me settled in a community that will not only provide a social outlet, but also be there when my health starts to fail. He is inundating my email with his research. Our very limited studies keep popping up with what I would call "old folks homes" (and he "yells" at me that I am making assumptions before calling to find out). Quite frankly, when "grampa" is in the advertising, I deem it to be an old folks home, when "senior models" are pictured it looks more like an active senior complex.


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## pwrshift (Aug 21, 2017)

I'm in Canada and there are probably big differences.  Here a nice retirement homes for people that don't yet need assistance costs about $5,000 a month ... and if you go away a month you still pay.  That's after tax dollars and to afford that amount you'd need to earn about $9,000 a month just to pay it.  With assistance it's much more.  You don't usually own the condo here.

I own a business, work a 40+ hour week, have 20 employees, and am well over the normal retirement age.  I often wonder if I would have made it to my age if I had retired.  I feel unless you associate with 'young' people you get old faster and I don't think you'd get that in a retirement complex.  We are looking at downsizing, selling our 4,400 sq ft home on 3/4 acre as just my DW and I live here.  A 1,700 sq Ft condo in Toronto is about $1.3 million and while my house would sell for more it's tough to clean out a big house in which we've lived 27 years.  Fortunately, in Canada we have affordable heath care and principal residence capital gains are tax free...but our income taxes seem a lot more than in USA. 

It's a very big decision but I suspect it's better to make this move before your health goes and your move is one of necessity instead of choice.  Decisions.  Decisions.


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## bogey21 (Aug 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K....The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be.  Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there.



There is truth in the above.  When I moved into Trinity Terrace in 2001 my buy-in was a non-refundable $65,000 or so and TT was pretty much a well run but bare bones operation.  Since I moved in TT has added two new towers and both are on the (pick your poison) 70%, 80% or 90% refundable system requiring buy-ins approaching $1 million.  I have benefited from this as they have added all kinds of amenities and upgraded their facilities and dining to entice potential residents to part with such large sums.  In their defense they have market analysis studies that show a large demand for larger apartments with expanded amenities.  They seem to be right as 90% - 95% of the units in the newest tower were sold pre-construction.

George


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## VacationForever (Aug 23, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> There is truth in the above.  When I moved into Trinity Terrace in 2001 my buy-in was a non-refundable $65,000 or so and TT was pretty much a well run but bare bones operation.  Since I moved in TT has added two new towers and both are on the (pick your poison) 70%, 80% or 90% refundable system requiring buy-ins approaching $1 million.  I have benefited from this as they have added all kinds of amenities and upgraded their facilities and dining to entice potential residents to part with such large sums.  In their defense they have market analysis studies that show a large demand for larger apartments with expanded amenities.  They seem to be right as 90% - 95% of the units in the newest tower were sold pre-construction.
> 
> George



Close to $1 million... Too rich for my blood...


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## bogey21 (Aug 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Close to $1 million... Too rich for my blood...



Mine too.  I'm fortunate that I moved in when the buy-in was $65,000.  Although I paid a lot less I am treated just the same at those putting up the big bucks.

George

PS One thing I may have forgotten in my earlier posts is that about 35% of my monthly fee is a deductible expense on my Federal Income Tax.  The CCRC has their Public Accounting Firm calculate the amount and give me a letter every year.  The letter explains why it is deductible and how to deduct it.  The deductible percentage has something to do with the ratio between the amounts the CCRC spends on those needing total care and the CCRC's overall operating expenses.


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## VacationForever (Aug 23, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> Mine too.  I'm fortunate that I moved in when the buy-in was $65,000.  Although I paid a lot less I am treated just the same at those putting up the big bucks.
> 
> George
> 
> PS One thing I may have forgotten in my earlier posts is that about 35% of my monthly fee is a deductible expense on my Federal Income Tax.  The CCRC has their Public Accounting Firm calculate the amount and give me a letter every year.  The letter explains why it is deductible and how to deduct it.  The deductible percentage has something to do with the ratio between the amounts the CCRC spends on those needing total care and the CCRC's overall operating expenses.


I don't remember reading, how much is your monthly fees and what do the fees cover?  Thanks.


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## clifffaith (Sep 11, 2017)

So today Cliff dragged me to a sit down at the high end "old folks home" on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. I am against it because I'd been considering a CCRC move "an adventure", and moving 20 minutes away is no adventure. Prices are very similar to what we found in Pleasanton and San Juan Capistrano, except that there is no charming campus with water scaping and community garden patches, so to my mind we'd be paying the same for less.  I think it would only be a consideration for me as a single, after Cliff was cared for at home (assuming there's any money left!). Next month we have an appointment to  visit a CCRC in Santa Fe. It is also at 100% occupancy with a wait list like the one today.


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## isisdave (Sep 12, 2017)

How about the San Diego area?  I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.

http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/

Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.


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## bogey21 (Sep 12, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I don't remember reading, how much is your monthly fees and what do the fees cover?  Thanks.


At first (in the year 2000) my monthly fee was about $1,550.  Today 17 years later it is about $2,700.  This is for a one bedroom apartment.  Fees cover just about everything;i.e. one meal daily, cleaning, utilities, cable TV, laundry, local transportation, garage parking, most activities.  And remember about 35% of the monthly fee is tax deductible for FIT purposes.

George


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## clifffaith (Sep 12, 2017)

isisdave said:


> How about the San Diego area?  I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.
> 
> http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/
> 
> Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.




Thank you so much! This looks like an excellent avenue to explore! I said to Cliff in the car yesterday that San Juan Capistrano felt like it was just down the block compared to the idea of Santa Fe, so Carlsbad/San Diego isn't all that much further.


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## WinniWoman (Sep 13, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> At first (in the year 2000) my monthly fee was about $1,550.  Today 17 years later it is about $2,700.  This is for a one bedroom apartment.  Fees cover just about everything;i.e. one meal daily, cleaning, utilities, cable TV, laundry, local transportation, garage parking, most activities.  And remember about 35% of the monthly fee is tax deductible for FIT purposes.
> 
> George




That seems like a hell of a lot of money per month.


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## bogey21 (Sep 13, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> That seems like a hell of a lot of money per month.



True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT.  Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.  

I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that  they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection.  In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy.  Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.

George


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## Luanne (Sep 13, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> So today Cliff dragged me to a sit down at the high end "old folks home" on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. I am against it because I'd been considering a CCRC move "an adventure", and moving 20 minutes away is no adventure. Prices are very similar to what we found in Pleasanton and San Juan Capistrano, except that there is no charming campus with water scaping and community garden patches, so to my mind we'd be paying the same for less.  I think it would only be a consideration for me as a single, after Cliff was cared for at home (assuming there's any money left!). Next month we have an appointment to  visit a CCRC in Santa Fe. It is also at 100% occupancy with a wait list like the one today.


Which CRCC in Santa Fe are you going to visit?


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## VacationForever (Sep 13, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT.  Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.
> 
> I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that  they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection.  In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy.  Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.
> 
> George


If you need higher level of care, does the amount go up from $2700, adjusted for inflation?


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## clifffaith (Sep 13, 2017)

Luanne said:


> Which CRCC in Santa Fe are you going to visit?



El Castillo, which for those who can walk (sadly not me at this stage with my back issues) appears to be an easy distance from the main plaza when looking at the map. We have been told it is the only CCRC in that part of New Mexico, and so far nothing else has jumped out at us.


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## Luanne (Sep 13, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> El Castillo, which for those who can walk (sadly not me at this stage with my back issues) appears to be an easy distance from the main plaza when looking at the map. We have been told it is the only CCRC in that part of New Mexico, and so far nothing else has jumped out at us.


We have several friends living at El Castillo.  They seem happy there.  It is very close to the Plaza.  They are supposedly building an additional facility in town.  It won't be as close to the Plaza as the one that is already there. 

I thought there were other facilities in Santa Fe, but I could be wrong.  Maybe they are retirement communities but don't have the full care that El Castillo has.

Also remember Santa Fe is at 7000 feet and can cause problems for some people. We also get snow here.  We love it and have been very happy retiring to this location, but if you have any mobility issues it could be challenging.


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## bogey21 (Sep 13, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> If you need higher level of care, does the amount go up from $2700, adjusted for inflation?



Yes, but the amount is very small.  It is not enough to concern me.

George


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## WinniWoman (Sep 14, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT.  Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.
> 
> I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that  they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection.  In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy.  Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.
> 
> George



We do not have nor are we getting the Long Term Care Insurance either.

In so far as tax deductions, I am not sure they are really worth laying out the money just to get less back than you are paying.

But the peace of mind for you if probably worth it, so as long as you can afford it, what the heck.

For me, I think sleeping pills might be cheaper when the time comes.


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## clifffaith (Sep 14, 2017)

Luanne said:


> We have several friends living at El Castillo.  They seem happy there.  It is very close to the Plaza.  They are supposedly building an additional facility in town.  It won't be as close to the Plaza as the one that is already there.
> 
> I thought there were other facilities in Santa Fe, but I could be wrong.  Maybe they are retirement communities but don't have the full care that El Castillo has.
> 
> Also remember Santa Fe is at 7000 feet and can cause problems for some people. We also get snow here.  We love it and have been very happy retiring to this location, but if you have any mobility issues it could be challenging.




If Santa Fe ends up in serious contention I want to spend a couple winter weeks at our Diamond timeshare. We've been told snow is usually light, but did meet a couple at a pre-opera dinner one summer who said the town was snowed in at Christmas the previous year. You'll laugh -- obviously if if is snowing it is pretty darn cold, but in my mind the only issue was "if it's snowing, I'll stay inside". But what about the days it is snowless and 40 degrees outside?  I've lived in Los Angeles since I was 5 years old, so snow and cold is just not something we have to deal with. We've been visiting Santa Fe annually since 2009 and I do have an issue each time with the altitude. Wake up a night feeling like I need to sit up and breathe to make sure I'm still getting enough oxygen. I expect to acclimate to altitude much easier that cold weather. What is drawing us to investigate a CCRC here is, as I suspected, CA real estate prices are what drives the entrance fee into the stratosphere. They are less by roughly half (without having actually crunched numbers, just glancing at a price sheet that shows the most expensive unit in SF as about the price of a studio in CA). Also my furnishings already fit Santa Fe -- instead of being the weird CCRC resident with skulls on her wall in California, my Dia de los Muertos/Mexican/folk arty decor will be right at home in New Mexico.


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## Luanne (Sep 14, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> If Santa Fe ends up in serious contention I want to spend a couple winter weeks at our Diamond timeshare. We've been told snow is usually light, but did meet a couple at a pre-opera dinner one summer who said the town was snowed in at Christmas the previous year. You'll laugh -- obviously if if is snowing it is pretty darn cold, but in my mind the only issue was "if it's snowing, I'll stay inside". But what about the days it is snowless and 40 degrees outside?  I've lived in Los Angeles since I was 5 years old, so snow and cold is just not something we have to deal with. We've been visiting Santa Fe annually since 2009 and I do have an issue each time with the altitude. Wake up a night feeling like I need to sit up and breathe to make sure I'm still getting enough oxygen. I expect to acclimate to altitude much easier that cold weather. What is drawing us to investigate a CCRC here is, as I suspected, CA real estate prices are what drives the entrance fee into the stratosphere. They are less by roughly half (without having actually crunched numbers, just glancing at a price sheet that shows the most expensive unit in SF as about the price of a studio in CA). Also my furnishings already fit Santa Fe -- instead of being the weird CCRC resident with skulls on her wall in California, my Dia de los Muertos/Mexican/folk arty decor will be right at home in New Mexico.


I was born and raised outside Los Angeles and lived in the San Francisco Bay area until we moved to Santa Fe.  I had never "done" winter before moving here.  I've found there are very few days I need to stay inside all day.  At this point (we've been here almost five years) I still love the winter.  I find if I bundle up I can be outside when it's 40 degrees.  I haven't experienced any problems with the altitude although I do get a bit winded sometimes when I hike.

I did trade in my Prius (which I loved) for an AWD Honda CR-V.  We live in a development with dirt roads and I found myself stuck a couple of times just getting up the small hill to our driveway.  Since I didn't want to be dependent on my husband for getting around I decided to get an AWD.


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## Inhislove (Sep 14, 2017)

In my research for our in-laws, there are multiple kinds of continuing care communities and also plenty of 55+ retirement communities. Here is an example in my college town of DeLand, FL. You can do a buy in that is permanent after 4 years, a 75% refund option, and a C plan (unsure of what this means). It entitles residents to 30 days of care per year at the nursing/rehab center and a discount if assisted living or full-time nursing care is required.

http://www.alliancecommunity.org/duplexes.html


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## Conan (Sep 15, 2017)

Does anybody here have experience with any of the locations in the Kendal group?
http://www.kendal.org/

Our daughters went to Oberlin College which is how we heard of it. Oberlin, Ohio has bitter winters, though, which is off-putting.


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## bogey21 (Sep 15, 2017)

As one who lives in a CCRC my advice is to visit as many CCRCs as you can before you choose one.  Take your time.  You are making a decision that will impact the rest of your life!  Before I chose Trinity Terrace (Fort Worth, TX) I visited 6 or 7 other CCRCs in almost as many states.  This enabled me to compare initial costs, monthly fees, physical facilities, different locations, food service, activities, etc.   Being able to read the contracts and talk to residents at each was invaluable.  Trust me.  I found that the differences between CCRCs were mind boggling.

George


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## clifffaith (Sep 27, 2017)

isisdave said:


> How about the San Diego area?  I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.
> 
> http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/
> 
> Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.




 I think we have a winner! Today we took the  1 3/4 hour drive to visit the Carlsbad location. We were a bit early so we took a walk around the outside of the main building. I was sold when we got to the ocean at the end of the block. No fancy landscaped grounds needed when the ocean is right there. Carlsbad By the Sea occupies three buildings, the main building in front, another across a small side street, and the third is right on the water housing six units that are out of our price range. But that building has the roof top ocean view patio with a barbecue and fire pit and plenty of lounge chairs. Best of all there is sand access via elevator -- I'd already groaned at the public stairs, great going down but I knew I'd be huffing and puffing coming back up. And the facility is right in the heart of Carlsbad Village - walk out the door to restaurants and little shops. The train to San Diego is a block and a half away. Seem to have lots of activities for the residents -- today they were getting ready for a birthday party for several residents who have all turned 100 in the last couple of months -- we met one gentleman who didn't look a day over 80!

The buy in for 2bed/2bath or 1bed/den/2bath starts at $350K, about half the price of Reata Glen. I feel like the money we aren't using for the buy in can then continue to grow in our investment accounts. Monthly payment for two is $5670. Two spaces in underground parking are free, as are storage areas for holiday decorations, etc. Assisted living is paid separately when/if needed and is administered in your home at whatever level you need, and there is a skilled nursing wing. They don't currently have memory care.

We are ready to provide them with a $1000 check (refundable) to get on the waiting list. We were told approx. a three year wait, but the occupant of one of the furnished units who kindly invited us in said she only waited six months earlier this year. I think it will take me two years to downsize and shut our business down (although yesterday we were both so whipped after a morning drapery installation we napped from 3-6 so I don't know if we'll last two more years!). We will still go to our appointment at El Castillo in Santa Fe next month, but I'm so glad I have somewhere local I like because now I don't have to worry about abandoning my parents!


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## Laurie (Sep 27, 2017)

Conan said:


> Does anybody here have experience with any of the locations in the Kendal group?
> http://www.kendal.org/
> 
> Our daughters went to Oberlin College which is how we heard of it. Oberlin, Ohio has bitter winters, though, which is off-putting.



Interesting link, thanks. There's one right near DC. I'd want proximity to a cultural center personally, and it's warmer than those NE locations.


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## amycurl (Sep 27, 2017)

My uncle has served on the board of the Kendal group, and my high school had a strong service relationship with the one in Kennett Square, PA.  Very well-run, ethical, nonprofit corporation with great facilities. 

And hi Laurie! 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Laurie (Sep 27, 2017)

amycurl said:


> My uncle has served on the board of the Kendal group, and my high school had a strong service relationship with the one in Kennett Square, PA.  Very well-run, ethical, nonprofit corporation with great facilities.
> 
> And hi Laurie!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Hi back to you! Maybe we'll run into each other again one of these days!

And good to know that about Kendal - thanks! (I've just forwarded that link to a few friends.)


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## cp73 (Sep 28, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> The Pleasanton development has a sister community in San Juan Capistrano which is much closer to our Los Angeles home. When we get home from Napa we'll look into that community, which I believe is still in the early construction mode.



Ive enjoyed reading this post and admire all you considering doing this. 
Are you referring to Reata Glen (spelling) in Rancho Mission Viejo/San Juan? Its under construction and in a nice location. I stopped in and met with them for my Dad about six months ago. Its on Ortega Highway about 3 miles from the 5 Freeway. Looks like it will be a great spot. 

The last six months have been a big challenge for my sister and I with our Dad. He is 91 and we are moving him from an Assisted living in Norwalk to a newer place in Tustin which is a lot nicer. This will be a lot closer for my sister and I to visit him which we do a couple times a week. My Dad's health and mobility has been slowing him down during the last six months. He is on Oxygen all the time and spends most of his time in a wheel chair. This however hasn't stopped him from having Uber take him from the assisted living place to a local bar to meet with friends a couple times a week.

During this experience with him I have learned several things. First is live close to your children if you can. Make it very easy on them to just drop by and check on you or do some quick shopping for you. Move if you have to. Sell your house and downsize. The smaller your house the easier it is on you. You don't need all your stuff and probably your kids don't want it either. I wish he would have done this years ago. Now the house sits empty with my sister and I driving over there just to make sure its being maintained and pickup his mail.

Well tomorrow we move him and I am hopeful it will go well. He has already told us he wants to continue using his doctors which are going to now be 25 miles away. Hopefully over time we can get him to see that they have good doctors in Orange County also.


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## MuranoJo (Sep 28, 2017)

This is a tough topic we all have to face eventually.

Just tonight, my MIL called to chat and said she was going to stop telling people she wasn't feeling well because she didn't want to be put in a nursing home.  Further, she (once again) stated she refuses to go to a nursing home--we'll just have to take care of her.   (She's still at home with Home Health Care and the family helping her daily, but I'm not sure how long that can last.)

I'm thankful we have LTC policies from a group package offered by my last employer and we intend to hang onto those unless they make huge premium increases, which, luckily, they haven't so far.


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## cgeidl (Sep 30, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> This is something I really know something about as I live in a CCRC.  The one I live in is Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth, TX.  Trinity Terrace is managed by Pacific Retirement Services, Medford, OR.  Pacific Retirement Services manages something like 20 CCRCs most of which are on the West Coast.
> 
> When I moved into my one bedroom apartment in Trinity Terrace in 2000 the *nonrefundable* front end fee was $65,000 and my monthly fee was roughly $1,600.  Today my monthly fee is roughly $2,500.  Trinity Terrace has now added two new towers with larger units with *partly refundable* front end fees ranging somewhere between $700,000 and $1,000,000.  I don't know how much the monthly fees for these units are other than that they are high.  The amount of the front end fee depends on how much (70%, 80% or 90%) is refunded to your heirs when you die.
> 
> ...



We are in a CCRC Community and have been for just three months. It seems very similar to,George's except the costs are much higher.  It originally was a  Community  just for retired military officers but now is for everyone. The best thing about this community to us is the incredible background people living here.  Many have written books or have books written about them. The employees are mostly very young and try their best to do a great job. We are in the independent living  but have assisted living nursing care, and a memory facility. The costs if you move to one of these facilities stays the same. It is a community that is nonprofit  and is very financially secure.  The people in the community are very involved in any decisions made by the Board of Directors and their committees for all facets of the community.  There are eight or 10 trips a month and  outside entertainers coming in and lots of physical activities. It is very well-managed and we are happy campers.


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## clifffaith (Sep 30, 2017)

One thing I neglected to mention from our tour of Carlsbad was that we really liked their meal plan. Reata/Stoneridge gives you 30 meals per month to use yourself or for visitors. Canterbury gave you 30, but you can't have a visitor eat one of your allotted meals (they said they were afraid folks would neglect their own meals in order to save up to treat a friend). Carlsbad gives you 90 points a month. Breakfast costs 1 point, lunch 2 and dinner 3. Basically lunch can be a pretty big meal if you order soup/salad, entree and dessert, so we liked the idea that by eating lunch as our main meal we have points left over to have a hot breakfast on the weekends. You can have a friend share a meal using your points, and you can order your meal to go (we were told many CCRCs did not let food leave the dining room, but we didn't think to ask that anywhere because we assumed we'd always want to go down to dinner). I actually wondered if I was seeing some "hermit/anti-social" behavior the other day because there seemed to be a lot of elderly men picking up lunch to go. On the other hand they could all be getting together on the ocean front deck to enjoy each other's company for all I know.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 1, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> One thing I neglected to mention from our tour of Carlsbad was that we really liked their meal plan. Reata/Stoneridge gives you 30 meals per month to use yourself or for visitors. Canterbury gave you 30, but you can't have a visitor eat one of your allotted meals (they said they were afraid folks would neglect their own meals in order to save up to treat a friend). Carlsbad gives you 90 points a month. Breakfast costs 1 point, lunch 2 and dinner 3. Basically lunch can be a pretty big meal if you order soup/salad, entree and dessert, so we liked the idea that by eating lunch as our main meal we have points left over to have a hot breakfast on the weekends. You can have a friend share a meal using your points, and you can order your meal to go (we were told many CCRCs did not let food leave the dining room, but we didn't think to ask that anywhere because we assumed we'd always want to go down to dinner). I actually wondered if I was seeing some "hermit/anti-social" behavior the other day because there seemed to be a lot of elderly men picking up lunch to go. On the other hand they could all be getting together on the ocean front deck to enjoy each other's company for all I know.




That points thing sounds scarily like timeshare exchanging! LOL!

I am pretty social, but I don't think I would want to eat all my meals with other people.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 1, 2017)

Mary Ann...
You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch *OR* Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.

So numbers-wise ...* you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room*. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the  month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.

And if you are 93yo like my aunt who lives in a 2bdr/2ba apartment ... not driving anymore, no kids (or nearby family) ... you need to think about the little things .. like when you are 85yo and you are out of toilet paper ... the pizza place will deliver some type of food, but TP is not on their menu.


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## rapmarks (Oct 1, 2017)

Not every place is the same, but there are many additional costs in an assisted living situation. Medications have to be in bubble wrap packages, you lose the savings on mail order ninety days.  Cost goes up if you take over six medications a day, no medications allowed in your room, no creams or lotions, if you are not feeling well, there is a charge to bring meal to your room.  You have no transportation for things you need or appointments.  when my aunt went on bedridden, costswent way up.  Then she went on hospice, costs went up again, every bit of assistance is a charge.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 1, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann...
> You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch *OR* Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.
> 
> So numbers-wise ...* you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room*. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the  month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.
> ...




 Ha! Ha! You made me laugh! All I can think of with a points system for eating is what do you do when you start getting confused or a little touch of dementia? I can only imagine trying to keep track of our points at older ages! LOL!

We looked at a continuing care place in NH and we didn't like the fact that you HAD to purchase a meal plan when you weren't ready for such a thing. But I would think when you are it would be nice to just be able to have a full meal plan and not worry about whether or not you can have a meal or not. Kind of more like the ones that have on college campuses- a few choices.

Like I have said before, I do not like points systems- timeshares, meal plans, diets or even credit card rewards. But that's just me.


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## clifffaith (Oct 1, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann...
> You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch *OR* Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.
> 
> So numbers-wise ...* you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room*. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the  month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.
> ...



Wanted to point out that this is independent living where you get 90 points to divi up between meals (more points in months with 31 days, fewer in February). Once you need meals brought to you or assistance or nursing care you will pay for the extra services. Or you can pay for more meals if you want them.  These apartments have small but fully equipped kitchens. I rarely cook using an oven (in fact dinner is usually Lean Cuisine) but one of the things we disliked about the Canterbury was that there was no oven, just a tiny counter top convection oven. When I want to make my holiday breads and cookies, or lasagne or a casserole, even if I'm only doing it once a month I want a regular oven.

Also Carlsbad has regular transportation to the local grocery stores on Monday and Thursday for those who no longer have a car or don't feel like driving that day. The schedule is something like Von's and Sprouts in the morning and Ralph's and Trader Joe's in the afternoon. There is also a small shop in the retirement community for candy bars, toothpaste, TP, quarts of milk, etc.

And I really like the idea that assisted living is done in our own unit, as little or as much help as we need, when the time comes. The other communities we looked at moved you to another part of the facilities once you needed help.


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## bogey21 (Oct 2, 2017)

cgeidl said:


> It is a community that is nonprofit  and is very financially secure.



This is one thing I forgot to discuss in any of my previous posts.  You need to check carefully the CCRC's financial stability before you sign up and pay a large front end fee.  Actually this is probably one of the first things you should do.

George


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## isisdave (Oct 3, 2017)

There are an increasing number of grocery delivery services most places. I see in Carlsbad there is instacart, and apparently Von's has their own. Probably Amazon Fresh too. I know the app or website for these lets you build a shopping list of "frequent" items. There's usually a small fee, or it's free if you order a certain amount. 

Also, you can set up an assistant. Sometimes you will find a taxi driver who will do short errands for you, or perhaps one of the dining room serving staff, who are usually high schoolers, if the place permits that.


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## clifffaith (Oct 24, 2017)

We are in Santa Fe, with me suffering my usual high altitude sleep issues (wake up at 2am feeling like I need to get upright to breathe, and then being awake for several hours). Presumably that would go away after 10 days or so.

Yesterday we took the tour at El Castillo. Entrance fee is approx the same $350K as in Carlsbad, but includes all your future care arrangements, including the possibility of one couple occupying two types of housing at the same time. In Carlsbad you pay for care as you come to need it (presumably Cliff could get by with my care for many years before we would need extra help). The monthly fee is about the same at approx $5500 in either location. So the big advantage here is that the entrance fee includes your health care-- presumably a large savings. 

Of course I'm enchanted with the pueblo architecture and design elements (my home decor, with tons of baskets, pots and Dia de los  Muertos stuff, fits right in) and the easy walk to the heart of the Plaza. For those of you who know Santa Fe, Cathedral Place runs behind the La Fonda hotel and in front of St. Francis Basilica and dead ends into El Castillo on Alameda. When we were done with our tour we did take a quick walk into the Plaza and timed ourselves at ten minutes and we are not fast walkers.

Lunch and dinner are the same menu and served buffet style (breakfast has table service). We dined alone for lunch since the marketing person had a noon appointment, but spoke to several residents as we got our food, and a couple stopped by our table while we were having dessert to chat and extend a welcome. Dessert assortment was dangerously tasty (I commented that it would be harder to lose or maintain weight here; I'd be embarrassed to ask for a second or third dessert at Carlsbad where they have table service), but entree selection and taste was just average and I worry about it becoming tiresome. There were cooked to order options like a chopped salad, small steak, grilled cheese, fish, omlettes as well. And there is a cantina for sandwiches and burgers, either as your meal selection or if you want to eat off hours, and a deli for take out. Cantina hosts a free Happy Hour each day before dinner. The monthly fee includes one meal per day, no food allowed to be taken out of the main dining room, they will bring your meal to you if you are unwell, guests can use your meal allotment, no carry overs to the next month, but you can have extra meals to "catch up" if you were out of town during the same month.

Waiting list is 4-6 years, but we couldn't move in for three years any way because they have a 65 age minimum for both occupants. They are building a second facility nearby -- for those who know the Diamond timeshare at Paseo de Peralta and Griffin, new buildings will be up the street at PDP and Old Taos Highway, near the Masonic Temple. Still walkable to the Plaza, perhaps 15 minutes, looks like it would be a bit further than the walk from Diamond because of the way the road curves.

Realistically, we need to stick with Carlsbad. Two hour drive to my parents, no winter weather, no having to fly cats to their new home. We will still make a winter fly-in trip to Santa Fe (although our host yesterday said spring with lots of wind was the worst time of year), and we will fill out the financial paperwork and submit the $1000 refundable deposit, just to cover our bases because no telling what life will be like in three years. But I suspect that Carlsbad will come up with a vacancy first and we will act on that before having to really consider Santa Fe.


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## VacationForever (Oct 24, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> We are in Santa Fe, with me suffering my usual high altitude sleep issues (wake up at 2am feeling like I need to get upright to breathe, and then being awake for several hours). Presumably that would go away after 10 days or so.
> 
> Yesterday we took the tour at El Castillo. Entrance fee is approx the same $350K as in Carlsbad, but includes all your future care arrangements, including the possibility of one couple occupying two types of housing at the same time. In Carlsbad you pay for care as you come to need it (presumably Cliff could get by with my care for many years before we would need extra help). The monthly fee is about the same at approx $5500 in either location. So the big advantage here is that the entrance fee includes your health care-- presumably a large savings.
> 
> ...


I am always suspicious of pay upfront and then low or free future services.  Just as I would not buy in to "own" the place, I have even a harder time trusting that they will actually provide adequate care when needed since they will not be paid for providing extra services.  Not buying into a place means if I don't like the place, I can move to a different facility.


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## bogey21 (Oct 25, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I am always suspicious of pay upfront and then low or free future services.  Just as I would not buy in to "own" the place, I have even a harder time trusting that they will actually provide adequate care when needed since they will not be paid for providing extra services.



Clearly you have to be careful when you buy in and pay the front end fee.  I bought into Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth in 2000 and have never regretted it.  They have more than lived up to every promise they made and in fact TT is a better place today than the day I moved in.  A *small* negative is that monthly fees have gone up more than I expected but on the other hand services are better than I expected.

George


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## VacationForever (Oct 25, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> Clearly you have to be careful when you buy in and pay the front end fee.  I bought into Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth in 2000 and have never regretted it.  They have more than lived up to every promise they made and in fact TT is a better place today than the day I moved in.  A *small* negative is that monthly fees have gone up more than I expected but services are better than I expected.
> 
> George


At least they will charge you more when/if you need more care/services.  The Santa Fe place which Clifffaith visited told them that there is no charge for additional care.  When inadequate care is provided, there is no recourse.  At minimum they must allow outside caregivers to be hired and brought into the facility to supplement care.  That needs to be in the Ts and Cs.


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## lizap (Oct 25, 2017)

You sound young for this type facility. We will think about this arrangement when we get in our mid 70s.



clifffaith said:


> We are in Santa Fe, with me suffering my usual high altitude sleep issues (wake up at 2am feeling like I need to get upright to breathe, and then being awake for several hours). Presumably that would go away after 10 days or so.
> 
> Yesterday we took the tour at El Castillo. Entrance fee is approx the same $350K as in Carlsbad, but includes all your future care arrangements, including the possibility of one couple occupying two types of housing at the same time. In Carlsbad you pay for care as you come to need it (presumably Cliff could get by with my care for many years before we would need extra help). The monthly fee is about the same at approx $5500 in either location. So the big advantage here is that the entrance fee includes your health care-- presumably a large savings.
> 
> ...


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## bogey21 (Oct 25, 2017)

lizap said:


> You sound young for this type facility. We will think about this arrangement when we get in our mid 70s.


One benefit of buying in younger rather than older is that you amortize the buy in cost over more years.  Another is if you are lucky, you buy in when the cost is lower than it may be in the future.  In my case I bought in at age 65 in 2000 for $65,000.  The cost to buy into a unit like mine at my CCRC today is over $400,000!

George


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## lizap (Oct 25, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> One benefit of buying in younger rather than older is that you amortize the buy in cost over more years.  Another is if you are lucky, you buy in when the cost is lower than it may be in the future.  In my case I bought in at age 65 in 2000 for $65,000.  The cost to buy into a unit like mine at my CCRC today is over $400,000!
> 
> George



Much can happen in 10-15 years, especially at this age..


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## VacationForever (Oct 25, 2017)

lizap said:


> Much can happen in 10-15 years, especially at this age..


OP said her husband is about 80 and she is much younger.


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## lizap (Oct 25, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> OP said her husband is about 80 and she is much younger.



Oh ok. I missed that. That changes things completely.


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## clifffaith (Oct 25, 2017)

You'll all laugh -- I'm in the process of seeing what my hair looks like gray. I've dyed it one color or another for over forty years so I have no clue what it looks like in its natural state. Hair dresser was appalled I just wanted to stop cold turkey (said I'd look like a raccoon!) so we covered the most recent red with a temporary brown dye that is re-applied every few weeks and then gradually fades as the red is cut off over time. After five months my own gray temples have just started to peek through. Interested to see if I am salt and pepper or silver, my mother was silver at my age when she had to stop coloring her hair because the chemicals were blistering her scalp. I have to blend in with the other old ladies at the retirement home!


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## WinniWoman (Oct 26, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> You'll all laugh -- I'm in the process of seeing what my hair looks like gray. I've dyed it one color or another for over forty years so I have no clue what it looks like in its natural state. Hair dresser was appalled I just wanted to stop cold turkey (said I'd look like a raccoon!) so we covered the most recent red with a temporary brown dye that is re-applied every few weeks and then gradually fades as the red is cut off over time. After five months my own gray temples have just started to peek through. Interested to see if I am salt and pepper or silver, my mother was silver at my age when she had to stop coloring her hair because the chemicals were blistering her scalp. I have to blend in with the other old ladies at the retirement home!



I am 61 and I stopped coloring my hair this year cold turkey. Just grew the roots out. I had noticed this past year that there were a lot more strands coming out in the shower when I washed it. Also, the texture felt very different.


So, I finally decided I had been coloring my own hair at home since my 30's and it was time to stop. Rather have some hair left then just a few brown strands. As it began to grow out, young people at work would ask me what the hell I was doing! LOL!

I then decided I should also cut it off- keep a very short pixie cut with long layers on the top.  That would keep it stronger, And- I even tried womans' Rogaine for a few months, but it really didn't work. It thickened the strands I already had but it didn't add more hair to my scalp.Now I am trying taking biotin.

While it was growing out, people actually thought I purposely put low lights through it. They kept telling me how great it looked.

Now hardly any hair comes out when I wash it- which is about 3 times per week. I always condition it now after shampooing (which I never used to do because I have very fine hair) as well as once per week deep conditioning (which I have always done). It takes me 2 minutes to blow dry it with a little mouse in it to give it some texture since it is very fine. Don't need to in the summer if I don't feel like it.

Anyway, now that the color is out, I can't tell you how many compliments I am getting! It's been a while now and I still get compliments- even from the same people. Some women have never said a word but I suspect it is because of their own fear of ever making the change or aging. To each his own. My 92 year old aunt still dyes her hair blonde! LOL! She looks great, too!

My mom never ever colored her hair. She had the most gorgeous totally white hair ever- like platinum- and she always got compliments on it. People thought she actually dyed it that color. Looked great with her blue eyes.

I actually can't believe I waited this long to do it! So easy. I do have to get it cut every 6 weeks-takes like 15 minutes!

PS I have changed my makeup also because of the hair color. I now just use the same foundation and loose powder and blush and lipstick, but no eye makeup except black mascara on the top lashes. When on vacation- I have never worn makeup and still won't. Ha! Ha!

Here I am with the new hair. And a before shot.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 26, 2017)

My 72 year old newly retired friend called me the other day. She just joined a local club and she said everyone there had white hair-implying they were so much older than her. She still dyes her hair blonde. I chuckled because she hasn't seen me in many years and has no idea that I , too, have white hair! Ha! Ha!  

PS My 63 year old husband is bald on top, but has lots of brown hair everywhere else on his head- not a single gray. The only grays he has is in his eyebrows, ears and beard. LOL!


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## clifffaith (Oct 26, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I am 61 and I stopped coloring my hair this year cold turkey. Just grew the roots out. I had noticed this past year that there were a lot more strands coming out in the shower when I washed it. Also, the texture felt very different.
> 
> 
> So, I finally decided I had been coloring my own hair at home since my 30's and it was time to stop. Rather have some hair left then just a few brown strands. As it began to grow out, young people at work would ask me what the hell I was doing! LOL!
> ...



Hope my "new" hair will look as great as yours!


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## geist1223 (Oct 26, 2017)

I remember about 10 years back I was coloring my hair. My oldest brother was in an induced Coma after being badly burned in an RV Fire. My youngest brother and I flew San Francisco to help his family. My youngest brother (1.5 years younger) was not coloring his hair and he was mostly gray. The Nurse thought my youngest brother was the oldest of the 3 of us. He was not pleased. For about 6.5 years I have not had a hair cut and my Pony Tail went to the bottom of my shoulder blades. A few weeks ago I felt like a difference and had the Barber give me a Buzz Cut. I now shave my Head about every other day. Most folks say they like it and that I look years younger - including my Nail Gal.


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## VacationForever (Oct 26, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I am 61 and I stopped coloring my hair this year cold turkey. Just grew the roots out. I had noticed this past year that there were a lot more strands coming out in the shower when I washed it. Also, the texture felt very different.
> 
> 
> So, I finally decided I had been coloring my own hair at home since my 30's and it was time to stop. Rather have some hair left then just a few brown strands. As it began to grow out, young people at work would ask me what the hell I was doing! LOL!
> ...



Love how you look.


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## pittle (Oct 27, 2017)

I think you look younger with the new look!  I love it!!!

Just the other day, someone told me that if her hair could look as good as mine, they would stop coloring it and go gray!  What is so funny is that every 4-5 months, I use a home frosting kit to highlight the sections that are not natural! My hair has always been naturally blonde and in the front I have always had some nearly white sections. My husband pulls the hair through for me to balance out the back.  Most people do not know that I enhance it because I never have dark roots - just a medium blonde with some gray mixed in. I do it less and less now, but it does give my hair more body.


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## rapmarks (Oct 27, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I am 61 and I stopped coloring my hair this year cold turkey. Just grew the roots out. I had noticed this past year that there were a lot more strands coming out in the shower when I washed it. Also, the texture felt very different.
> 
> 
> So, I finally decided I had been coloring my own hair at home since my 30's and it was time to stop. Rather have some hair left then just a few brown strands. As it began to grow out, young people at work would ask me what the hell I was doing! LOL!
> ...


You look really good.  I keep saying I am going to do that, and my hairdresser says I will look ten years older.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 27, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> You look really good.  I keep saying I am going to do that, and my hairdresser says I will look ten years older.




Thank you and everyone. What I tell people is to give it a try. The worse that could happen is you hate it and you can always go right back to coloring it again. But you might be pleasantly surprised.


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## Sugarcubesea (Oct 27, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I am 61 and I stopped coloring my hair this year cold turkey. Just grew the roots out. I had noticed this past year that there were a lot more strands coming out in the shower when I washed it. Also, the texture felt very different.
> 
> 
> So, I finally decided I had been coloring my own hair at home since my 30's and it was time to stop. Rather have some hair left then just a few brown strands. As it began to grow out, young people at work would ask me what the hell I was doing! LOL!
> ...




Maryanne, you look fabulous... I love your cut. I have been coloring my hair for 15 years and I'm thinking in 10 years I will allow myself to go natural.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 27, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> You look really good.  I keep saying I am going to do that, and my hairdresser says I will look ten years older.




No doubt that gray hair is ageing. But I believe there is a point in time for some people - not all- where color3ng really doesn't add much youthfullness  to a person anymore. Depending on your features and the shade of gray hair you have it can actually brighten your face.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 27, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Maryanne, you look fabulous... I love your cut. I have been coloring my hair for 15 years and I'm thinking in 10 years I will allow myself to go natural.



Thanks again. Didn't want to hijack this thread but I am with Faith. I will be ready to blend in with the others when we finally someday are in our retirement home- whether its a CCRC or a 62 + community or whatever it might be.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 28, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Maryanne, you look fabulous... I love your cut. I have been coloring my hair for 15 years and I'm thinking in 10 years I will allow myself to go natural.



I was going to wait until I was 70 but I soon realized that plan wasn't going to work for me.


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## Sugarcubesea (Oct 28, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I was going to wait until I was 70 but I soon realized that plan wasn't going to work for me.



I work in an industry that once they feel you are in your 50’s they want you out the door and retired. 

  I need to work another 10 years as I need Medicare to kick in at 65.  I will be retiring the day I turn 65 and have Medicare in hand.  I look forward to not coloring my hair any longer as that will be a huge cost save.  

You look great and I aspire to look that good when I go grey


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## rapmarks (Oct 28, 2017)

here are a bunch of older ladies in our community.  Second from left will be 79.  There were 16 of us playing at raptor bay, the course at the Hyatt coconut in Bonita springs.  Only a couple have gone natural.


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## Sugarcubesea (Oct 28, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> View attachment 5004 here are a bunch of older ladies in our community.  Second from left will be 79.  There were 16 of us playing at raptor bay, the course at the Hyatt coconut in Bonita springs.  Only a couple have gone natural.


WOW that gal has some great genes.  She does not look a day over 55 to me.  Thanks for sharing the pic


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## WinniWoman (Oct 28, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I work in an industry that once they feel you are in your 50’s they want you out the door and retired.
> 
> I need to work another 10 years as I need Medicare to kick in at 65.  I will be retiring the day I turn 65 and have Medicare in hand.  I look forward to not coloring my hair any longer as that will be a huge cost save.
> 
> You look great and I aspire to look that good when I go grey



Thanks. You know I thought about work as well. I actually started this job at age 50 12 years ago. 

I, too, have several years to go until retirement and I need Medicare to kick in at age 65 as well. I was a little concerned about how I would be perceived as the only woman with gray hair- I am the oldest woman there, though there a few in their early 50's. One male boss is 50 and the CEO is in his late 40's. (A few men there have gray hair and no one gives it another thought).

But I said the heck with it! And it seems- at least on the surface- that it hasn't had an affect on how I am treated. Then again, I work mostly independently and am out in the field a lot. And I haven't sensed any issue with our outside clients and their staff. Again, if anything, I get compliments.

But- hey- maybe it works in my favor because no employer wants an age discrimination lawsuit! LOL!


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## WinniWoman (Oct 28, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> View attachment 5004 here are a bunch of older ladies in our community.  Second from left will be 79.  There were 16 of us playing at raptor bay, the course at the Hyatt coconut in Bonita springs.  Only a couple have gone natural.




They are all beautiful! I also have an 82 year old friend that does not look a day over 70- and I mean a beautiful 70! No plastic surgery, nothing like that. Just good genes. Great skin- stayed out of direct sun. Drinks Manhattans. LOL!  

BTW- she let her hair go gray when she was around 70. She dyed it blonde up until then- which was the color of her hair in her youth. She has blue eyes.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 28, 2017)

OK .... my luck.

My mother was TOTALLY GREY/SILVER by age 40. My sister 6 years younger than me, inherited that gene. She & her hairdresser started dying her grey (formerly brown, but now grey hair) BLOND. Seems grey is easier to cover via blond dye. Living 1500+ miles from the family it matter not to us, but her work and public image with outside vendors, it did. Since she retired, her "not dyed hair" has not deferred getting that 10+ year YOUNGER guy.

As for me and my hair, I seem to have inherited my father's mother's hair gene. I have a few strands of grey .. but does not interfer with everyone thinking I am 15+ years younger than my real age.... but since EVERYONE at 2 Home Depots knows my name ... I play "run, fetch & pay" for the jobsite materials for work ... I hold my own with the younger HD employee crowd for lugging plywood, 2x4s and 5 gallon pails of MUD & paint.... esp since 3/4 of the staff is as old or older than I ... and when you can find anyone lately.


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## rapmarks (Oct 28, 2017)

When I was 49, the state came up with a plan to get teachers to retire early.  I was on the list and labeled as one of the elderly teachers.  Everyone my age and older retired, and I can remember one guy in his twenties being shocked that we still played golf at our age.  I was the only teacher over fifty for a few years , and treated as elderly


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## puppymommo (Oct 28, 2017)

I am also 61 and have never colored my hair. Every time I bring it up, my hairdresser tells me not to do it, although he could make more money coloring my hair. Now I am mostly grey with some mousy brown. I work mostly with people in their 70s and 80s. Most of the women do color my hair, so I imagine I look older than  some of them. Oh well. I automatically get offered the senior discount at most places!


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## PigsDad (Oct 28, 2017)

Just saw this article on my MSN news feed, and thought I would share it:

9 Things You Didn't Know About Gray Hair

Kurt


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## clifffaith (Feb 25, 2018)

So I've been selling off collections that I no longer want on eBay since December 2011. And now that we are in the "about to be moving mode" I've increased what I'm trying to get rid of. Anything that is packable and light weight enough to ship has been getting listed on eBay. Just before Christmas I decided I could live with two Christmas trees instead of three, and so listed a bunch of ornaments. Many sold, but I have plenty still for sale. So today I sold a pair of ornaments to be shipped to Carlsbad. Address looked familiar, sure enough I sold ornaments to the CCRC we'll be moving to unless our plans change. Told Cliff, that will be me, sell everything off to get us moved, and then buy it back on eBay!


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## bogey21 (Feb 25, 2018)

Trust me on this one.  Almost everyone I talk to at my CCRC says the biggest mistake they made when moving in was to bring too much stuff with them.  My advice is to sell and/or give away as much as you can and move in lean.

George


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## isisdave (Feb 26, 2018)

I just watched "Expedition Happiness" on Netflix. This German couple came to the US, bought an old school bus, refurbished it into a travel home, and spent six months driving from North Carolina across Canada, through Alaska, and down through Mexico.

When they decided to return home, they raffled off the bus. Maybe you could package up stuff and raffle it off either on eBay or even here!


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## clifffaith (Feb 26, 2018)

isisdave said:


> I just watched "Expedition Happiness" on Netflix. This German couple came to the US, bought an old school bus, refurbished it into a travel home, and spent six months driving from North Carolina across Canada, through Alaska, and down through Mexico.
> 
> When they decided to return home, they raffled off the bus. Maybe you could package up stuff and raffle it off either on eBay or even here!



One thing is for sure, eBay has pretty much killed any enthusiasm I have for a garage sale. We had our last one several months after moving into this home, then I discovered eBay a few months after that. I had stuff left over from the garage sale that I'd packed up 7 years ago, and thought we'd better have a pre-garage sale before having the real garage sale when we will have furniture, etc. that we won't be moving to Carlsbad. So last summer after we'd put our deposit in to get on the wait list I started opening boxes to see what I had for my pre-garage sale. Hmm, that will sell on eBay, oh, that also will sell on eBay. Suddenly the light bulb went off, if it didn't sell locally 7 years ago it's not going to sell now so it was time for charity box or eBay.


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## Luanne (Feb 26, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> One thing is for sure, eBay has pretty much killed any enthusiasm I have for a garage sale. We had our last one several months after moving into this home, then I discovered eBay a few months after that. I had stuff left over from the garage sale that I'd packed up 7 years ago, and thought we'd better have a pre-garage sale before having the real garage sale when we will have furniture, etc. that we won't be moving to Carlsbad. So last summer after we'd put our deposit in to get on the wait list I started opening boxes to see what I had for my pre-garage sale. Hmm, that will sell on eBay, oh, that also will sell on eBay. Suddenly the light bulb went off, if it didn't sell locally 7 years ago it's not going to sell now so it was time for charity box or eBay.


We started clearing out at least a year before we were ready to move.  We knew we'd be downsizing.  I used a variety of methods to get rid of things.  We had one garage sale (it didn't make a lot and to me wasn't worth the effort). I used craigslist and did pretty well there.  We donated a bunch of stuff, and things that weren't quite nice enough to donate or sell, but that we didn't want to end up in the landfill, went to freecycle. This was a great way to get rid of stuff.  By the time we moved we had whittled our belongings down.  We've gotten rid of very little else since we moved and I haven't really missed anything we did get rid of.


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## easyrider (Feb 26, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Just saw this article on my MSN news feed, and thought I would share it:
> 
> 9 Things You Didn't Know About Gray Hair
> 
> Kurt



Another thing about grey hair, that wasn't mentioned in the article, is that millennial's, for some reason, have found it to be fashionable, to have grey hair. One of the pharmacists at my pharmacy died her hair grey. I think she is about 30. It doesn't look bad or make her look any older. Later, I was at a wedding and some of the girls had grey hair. I don't get it. It looked good. Funny to think that these girls will likely be trying hard to stay other than gray 30 years from now. 

Bill


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## clifffaith (Oct 6, 2018)

My dyed hair is completely grown out and I love my new gray hair! Still a fair amount of brown, and darker in back than front, and I'm hoping I'll eventually have hair like my mom's which is white in front, graduating to dark silver in the back. But I looked around the table at our last CCRC visit, and only one other woman was gray, all the other old biddies are still dyeing their hair!

Saw an ad in the paper last month for The Village at Northridge, and even though no way we'd move to Northridge we decided to take them up on their tour and lunch. In signing up for that we discovered they have a facility in Santa Barbara, so we are set up for a tour on Nov. 2nd on our way home from Worldmark Pismo Beach. Northridge has a $4,000 service initiation fee, no buy in. The monthly fee is about $9K for two of us, $1K less when the second body no longer occupies the unit. But I looked around and everyone seemed OLD, and I did not like the single building concept now that I've seen CCRCs with a campus or a beach. The Santa Barbara paperwork looks like that location works differently -- with a $250K-$300K buy in and then $7200/month for two. 

On Oct. 21st we go for a week at a Diamond Resorts affiliate which is a block or two from the Carlsbad CCRC. Have the marketing lady on notice that we'll see her with our list of questions, and the lady who made an eBay purchase from me who turned out to live in the facility is on tap for a lunch on us so we can pick her brain.


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## VacationForever (Oct 6, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> My dyed hair is completely grown out and I love my new gray hair! Still a fair amount of brown, and darker in back than front, and I'm hoping I'll eventually have hair like my mom's which is white in front, graduating to dark silver in the back. But I looked around the table at our last CCRC visit, and only one other woman was gray, all the other old biddies are still dyeing their hair!
> 
> Saw an ad in the paper last month for The Village at Northridge, and even though no way we'd move to Northridge we decided to take them up on their tour and lunch. In signing up for that we discovered they have a facility in Santa Barbara, so we are set up for a tour on Nov. 2nd on our way home from Worldmark Pismo Beach. Northridge has a $4,000 service initiation fee, no buy in. The monthly fee is about $9K for two of us, $1K less when the second body no longer occupies the unit. But I looked around and everyone seemed OLD, and I did not like the single building concept now that I've seen CCRCs with a campus or a beach. The Santa Barbara paperwork looks like that location works differently -- with a $250K-$300K buy in and then $7200/month for two.
> 
> On Oct. 21st we go for a week at a Diamond Resorts affiliate which is a block or two from the Carlsbad CCRC. Have the marketing lady on notice that we'll see her with our list of questions, and the lady who made an eBay purchase from me who turned out to live in the facility is on tap for a lunch on us so we can pick her brain.


Those are pretty steep monthly charges.  What do they include besides room/unit - how large?, 3 meals and housekeeping - weekly presumably, and transportation to outings and social activities?


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## rapmarks (Oct 6, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Those are pretty steep monthly charges.  What do they include besides room/unit - how large?, 3 meals and housekeeping - weekly presumably, and transportation to outings and social activities?


I gasped when I saw that figure.


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## clifffaith (Oct 7, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Those are pretty steep monthly charges.  What do they include besides room/unit - how large?, 3 meals and housekeeping - weekly presumably, and transportation to outings and social activities?



They include peace of mind for Cliff that I am not dying alone. No kids, no family assuming my sister does the disappearing act I suspect she will after Mom dies.


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## clifffaith (Oct 7, 2018)

rapmarks said:


> I gasped when I saw that figure.



Remember this is coastal Southern California. A buy-in of $300-$400K at a CCRC would need to be doubled to buy a house. I have no heirs besides a pet rescue and my Catholic girls' high school so I might as well spend the money myself (and many CCRCs care for you if you run out of money as long as you aren't going to the track with it).


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## VacationForever (Oct 7, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> Remember this is coastal Southern California. A buy-in of $300-$400K at a CCRC would need to be doubled to buy a house. I have no heirs besides a pet rescue and my Catholic girls' high school so I might as well spend the money myself (and many CCRCs care for you if you run out of money as long as you aren't going to the track with it).


So have you figured out the difference in costs and services with the CCRCs that require buy-in and ones without?  I am very familiar with the non-buy-in type of CCRCs in Northern California and the monthly fees are nowhere near what you have been looking at.  Even for very high-end ones, they were about $5K per month for one person, and slightly more for 2, with no buy-in costs as of 2 years ago.


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## bogey21 (Oct 7, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Those are pretty steep monthly charges.  What do they include besides room/unit - how large?, 3 meals and housekeeping - weekly presumably, and transportation to outings and social activities?



Three things in addition to the above that come along with my buying into a CCRC that many don't consider.  One is a guarantee of Assisted Living at a preferential rate if/when I need it.  Second is that a portion (in my case about 30%) of my monthly payments are deductible on my FIT as "Prepaid Medical Expenses".  And third if I run out of money (without doing it on purpose) my contract provides that my CCRC will cover all or part of my monthly expenses for the rest of my life...

George


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## Patri (Oct 8, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> And third if I run out of money (without doing it on purpose) my contract provides that my CCRC will cover all or part of my monthly expenses for the rest of my life...
> George


What if it is "part"? Are the rules clearly defined?


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## bogey21 (Oct 8, 2018)

Patri said:


> What if it is "part"? Are the rules clearly defined?



Not clearly defined.  What they do is sit down with Residents having financial difficulties and see how much they can pay.  Note that my CCRC has an incentive to work with Residents needing help because the Property Taxes of the CCRC are substantially reduced provided 3% of revenue is used for "Charity".  Subsidizing Residents who can't pay falls withing the "Charity" definition...

George


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## b2bailey (Oct 8, 2018)

Several years ago, my stepmother and her husband sold his home in Marin County and moved to CCRC in San Jose. They had a small 1 BR plus 2 meals per day for approx $7,000/month. Fast forward, 4 years. He passed away. Her memory began to fail. She was moved to their onsite (locked) memory care unit. Now shares a room, tiny space not much bigger than her single bed. Cost runs $8,000/mo depending on additional personal services required. Don't know what happens if she outlives her available funds. 
Note to self: Don't die in Silicon Valley, unless it is quick.


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## bogey21 (Oct 8, 2018)

$7,000 per month for a 1 bedroom is outrageous.  When I bought into Trinity Terrace 18 years ago the cost for my 1 bedroom was about $1,550 per month.  With annual increases it is now about $2,600 per month.  Compare this $2,600 to the $1,200 - $1,400 plus utilities and food I would be paying if I lived in a regular Apartment complex and then take into account the tax deduction and certainty of lifetime care...

If I ever have to go into Assisted Living my cost will increase to something like $5,000 per month but I will have my own large unit with a nice community dining room if I am mobile enough not to require meals in my room.  Maybe most of the difference in cost can be the difference between living in Silicon Valley and Fort Worth, Texas...

George


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## PigsDad (Oct 8, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> Maybe most of the difference in cost can be the difference between living in Silicon Valley and Fort Worth, Texas...


I think they are just pricing to what the local market can bear.  Think about it -- those California retirees will most likely be selling off their homes when they move into a CCRC or assisted living, and with the real estate prices as they are, I'm guessing most (or at least a good percentage) will be selling $1 million+ homes.  So $7K/month is probably reasonable for them.  The equivalent home in Texas would probably be $250K.

Kurt


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## clifffaith (Oct 15, 2018)

Today we spent several hours at La Costa Glen. It is about 15 minutes from where we are staying at the Carlsbad Beach Resort (excellent timeshare location, BTW; it's a Diamond Resorts affiliate -- we were offered partial ocean view, but our Friday night lightening storm took out the elevator and I can't cope with a four flight climb from the garage so we happily took a ground floor unit). La Costa is beautiful.  Two clubhouses, four dining rooms, rose garden, koi pond, indoor and outdoor pools, gyms, libraries, garden patches for growing your own veggies, campus basically like a high end resort. And I like the gated community and onsite emergency response. What it doesn't have is the ocean out the back door and restaurants and a cunning village and the Coaster to San Diego out the front door like at Carlsbad By The Sea.

In the next day or so we'll spend some time picking the brain of a resident at Carlsbad By The Sea (where we are already on the wait list) and then tour again with the marketing lady. I know I don't like the street side lower units there, because I feel there is access to bad guys from the patios. I think an interior courtyard facing unit will be safer.

I don't know if we'll end up filling out a wait list application for La Costa or not at this point. We'll see how far we get ourselves in trying to lay out a comparison between LCG with its higher buy in but fully covered assisted, nursing, and memory living spaces vs CBTS's lower buy in but all the additional care is paid for as it is needed. I think it would be money well spent to have our accountant (or someone she recommends) do this for us too. Of course La Costa's sister community rejected us because of our age difference, so we may not actually have two options in any case. And since I anticipate being alone for 18-20 years, I have to try to figure out where I'll be most comfortable.


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## isisdave (Oct 16, 2018)

Be sure to visit the (relatively) new library on Dove Street in La Costa, about 2 miles north of LCG. I used to work near Palomar Airport and would visit it regularly at lunch time, and we still drive down from Murrieta once in a while.

I haven't visited LCG. I think there's more stuff you can walk to at CBTS. And then there's the ocean.


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## bogey21 (Oct 16, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> I don't know if we'll end up filling out a wait list application for La Costa or not at this point. We'll see how far we get ourselves in trying to lay out a comparison between LCG with its higher buy in but fully covered assisted, nursing, and memory living spaces vs CBTS's lower buy in but all the additional care is paid for as it is needed. I think it would be money well spent to have our accountant (or someone she recommends) do this for us too. .



You are doing the right thing.  Keep looking, keep talking and keep comparing.  I think I visited 7 or 8 different CCRCs before I settled on the one I moved into.  There are many variables that go into making a choice.  As far as the economics I found them to be all over the place....

George


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## Glynda (Oct 16, 2018)

I volunteered in the nursing section of a CCRC not so long ago. It is a lovely community. However, I watched as the care level, particularly on weekends and nights, slipped. Since most administrators had those days/times off, the staff was not as vigilant and this was when I saw the worst of the place. There was also a shortage of caregivers on those shifts. Just walking through with a marketing rep won't show you the real inner workings of a place.  If you know a resident, visit and just sit and watch.


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## clifffaith (Oct 17, 2018)

Spent a couple hours today reading the La Costa resident handbook and I found the deal breaker -- they are going to charge me $3.50 if I want my ice cream dessert as a sundae instead of just a scoop! Cracks me up -- they charge thousands of dollars a month, but if I ask them for chocolate syrup, whipped cream and a cherry they're charging me. I'll have to get on the dining committee if we move there and make a change. I've already figured out that I'd be ok with free sundaes in the casual grill, but charged in the formal dining room -- a compromise I can live with. How silly!


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## VacationForever (Oct 17, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> And since I anticipate being alone for 18-20 years, I have to try to figure out where I'll be most comfortable.



Maybe the "alone" plan for the 18-20 years can be spent living on a nice cruise ship until you really need help before moving to a CCRC/assisted living place.  Living on a cruise ship for the relatively healthy seems alot more fun than in a CCRC.


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## isisdave (Oct 17, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> Spent a couple hours today reading the La Costa resident handbook and I found the deal breaker -- they are going to charge me $3.50 if I want my ice cream dessert as a sundae instead of just a scoop! Cracks me up -- they charge thousands of dollars a month, but if I ask them for chocolate syrup, whipped cream and a cherry they're charging me. I'll have to get on the dining committee if we move there and make a change. I've already figured out that I'd be ok with free sundaes in the casual grill, but charged in the formal dining room -- a compromise I can live with. How silly!



Simple -- keep the syrup, whipped cream, and cherry in your apartment fridge, and bring them in a BIG, ORANGE bag to the dining room. Order the ice cream, and invite your friends to do the same, and have a big party.  Or, slightly less flamboyantly -- depends on the image you want to cultivate -- get the ice cream to go, and fix it up at home.

This is an example of when accounting for a service costs more than providing the service, I'll bet.


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## clifffaith (Oct 17, 2018)

isisdave said:


> Simple -- keep the syrup, whipped cream, and cherry in your apartment fridge, and bring them in a BIG, ORANGE bag to the dining room. Order the ice cream, and invite your friends to do the same, and have a big party.  Or, slightly less flamboyantly -- depends on the image you want to cultivate -- get the ice cream to go, and fix it up at home.
> 
> This is an example of when accounting for a service costs more than providing the service, I'll bet.



LOL, CVS gave out reusable grocery bags that are Halloween orange when Los Angeles area stores stopped providing free bags a couple years ago, so we do have a couple orange bags. They allow BYOB wine, (otherwise you pay for wine and beer which I have no issue with) so I love the idea of bringing my own sundae fixins. We already ran up against the "no food may be removed from the dining room" rule when we asked for our dessert in the form of cookies to go. There was a lecture we wanted to attend on the premises, and did not have time for a seated dessert to conclude our complimentary lunch. (Turns out they served cookies at the lecture anyway). You can order a meal to go and pick it up, but no doggie bags after the fact.


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## bogey21 (Oct 17, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> Spent a couple hours today reading the La Costa resident handbook and I found the deal breaker -- they are going to charge me $3.50 if I want my ice cream dessert as a sundae instead of just a scoop! Cracks me up -- they charge thousands of dollars a month, but if I ask them for chocolate syrup, whipped cream and a cherry they're charging me....How silly!



As someone else essentially said "Improvise"...My CCRC has a couple of squirrely rules.  Most of the time we figure a way to work around them and move on...

George


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## bogey21 (Oct 17, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> You can order a meal to go and pick it up, but no doggie bags after the fact.



My CCRC does exactly this.  I thought it was stupid until I saw  things a small (and I mean small) percentage of our Residents do like fill their pockets with the free fruit and pastry we get in the lounge with our morning coffee or cookies at lunch time.  Or how about walking away with 10 or 12 styrofoam coffee cups and packets of sweetner.  Some will fill multiple coffee cups with the free soup we have available in the afternoons.  Often these are people with a ton of money who just can't help themselves.  Go figure..

George


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## silentg (Oct 17, 2018)

I used to work for a greeting card company. You would not believe how many people go over to the cards and take all the envelopes
Silentg


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## VacationForever (Oct 17, 2018)

@bogey21 I don't understand the nickel and dime rules of these CCRCs.  You are paying for the food already so why can't you bring a banana or so back to your room for when you want a snack later?


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## bogey21 (Oct 17, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> @bogey21 I don't understand the nickel and dime rules of these CCRCs.  You are paying for the food already so why can't you bring a banana or so back to your room for when you want a snack later?



It is the old story.  If people did it responsibly, there wouldn't be rules.  The problem is that those who abuse things ruin it for the rest.  You mention bananas.  I actually saw a woman put six in her purse when she thought no one was looking!  Don't get me wrong.  98-99% of the people at my CCRC don't abuse anything.  It is the 1 or 2% who can't help themselves that are the reason rules are established.  On the other hand our staff uses judgement and looks the other way if what is being taken is obviously within reason...

George


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## VacationForever (Oct 17, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> It is the old story.  If people did it responsibly, there wouldn't be rules.  The problem is that those who abuse things ruin it for the rest.  You mention bananas.  I actually saw a woman put six in her purse when she thought no one was looking!  Don't get me wrong.  98-99% of the people at my CCRC don't abuse anything.  It is the 1 or 2% who can't help themselves that are the reason rules are established.  On the other hand our staff uses judgement and looks the other way if what is being taken is obviously within reason...
> 
> George


I will stick to staying on a cruise ship instead of a CCRC for when I am still healthy and mobile.  Cruise ships don't care how many bananas or cookies you bring back to your stateroom...  On a cruise ship, food is always plentiful 24x7 and service is always great.


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## clifffaith (Oct 18, 2018)

We've decided not to apply for the wait list at La Costa Glen. Living in Carlsbad Village this week has convinced us that we prefer being able to walk out the front door to the shops and restaurants or the back door to the beach. And WALK has become my top priority now. Because of the leg pain caused by my back issues I spend as much time sitting as I can. This morning we got up and walked for an hour carrying my cane. Of course I'm suffering now, but getting back to being mobile has got to be my top priority, even if I have to just push through the pain.

Yesterday our new friend Jean (bought an ornament from me on eBay, and I recognized her address as being the "old folks home") showed us around her beautiful one bedroom unit and introduced us to her cat Betty. We treated her to lunch to further pick her brain. One tip she gave us was that unlike at La Costa where no food is allowed to be removed from the dining room,  if your five course lunch or dinner tends to be too much for you, ask them to pack up your soup, salad and dessert to go and you can have those later as another meal. 

Today we visited with the marketing lady and added another floor plan (2 bed with den) to our list of desired living spaces. We did this to widen our choice of locations within the facility, not really for the extra room. Will be at least two more years before our name rises to the top of the list, so we'll have time to continue the decluttering and fixing things around the house. By the end of next year my goal is to have the house ready to put on the market at a moment's notice.

We do have an appointment in Santa Barbara to tour a CCRC there. We'll do that in two weeks when we are up at Workdmark Pismo. Don't think they'll be able to surpass Carlsbad, but we'll see. Then I think we'll have seen enough to be sure of our decision.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 18, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> We've decided not to apply for the wait list at La Costa Glen. Living in Carlsbad Village this week has convinced us that we prefer being able to walk out the front door to the shops and restaurants or the back door to the beach. And WALK has become my top priority now. Because of the leg pain caused by my back issues I spend as much time sitting as I can. This morning we got up and walked for an hour carrying my cane. Of course I'm suffering now, but getting back to being mobile has got to be my top priority, even if I have to just push through the pain.
> 
> Yesterday our new friend Jean (bought an ornament from me on eBay, and I recognized her address as being the "old folks home") showed us around her beautiful one bedroom unit and introduced us to her cat Betty. We treated her to lunch to further pick her brain. One tip she gave us was that unlike at La Costa where no food is allowed to be removed from the dining room,  if your five course lunch or dinner tends to be too much for you, ask them to pack up your soup, salad and dessert to go and you can have those later as another meal.
> 
> ...




Congrats on making your decision! You seem pretty definite on Carlsbad and ti sounds like it will work out for you long term. At least now you know where you are heading, which must be a relief.


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## ilene13 (Oct 18, 2018)

We live near Sarasota, Florida.  We know quite a few people who live at the Glenridge on Palmer Ranch.  It’s a CCRC with an enormous lifestyle program.  Everyone we know there loves it.


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## bogey21 (Oct 19, 2018)

clifffaith said:


> .
> 
> We do have an appointment in Santa Barbara to tour a CCRC there...



My advice is to keep checking out CCRCs until you sign a contract with one.  You never know when a better alternative will appear.  I think I checked out 6 or 7 before finally selecting the one where I currently live...

I made two great decisions when I retired.  One was moving into a quality CCRC.  The other was taking my Pension in monthly payments rather than as a lump sum.  For 18 years and counting I have not only been getting my monthly Pension payments but also my 3% annual (compounding) COLA.  Who knows how much of my lump sum would be left particularly since I would have received it before the 2008 stock market crash...

George


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## rapmarks (Oct 19, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> My advice is to keep checking out CCRCs until you sign a contract with one.  You never know when a better alternative will appear.  I think I checked out 6 or 7 before finally selecting the one where I currently live...
> 
> I made two great decisions when I retired.  One was moving into a quality CCRC.  The other was taking my Pension in monthly payments rather than as a lump sum.  For 18 years and counting I have not only been getting my monthly Pension payments but also my 3% annual (compounding) COLA.  Who knows how much of my lump sum would be left particularly since I would have received it before the 2008 stock market crash...
> 
> George


We did the same with our pension, bigger raises than we got while working with cola


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## WinniWoman (Oct 19, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> My advice is to keep checking out CCRCs until you sign a contract with one.  You never know when a better alternative will appear.  I think I checked out 6 or 7 before finally selecting the one where I currently live...
> 
> I made two great decisions when I retired.  One was moving into a quality CCRC.  The other was taking my Pension in monthly payments rather than as a lump sum.  For 18 years and counting I have not only been getting my monthly Pension payments but also my 3% annual (compounding) COLA.  Who knows how much of my lump sum would be left particularly since I would have received it before the 2008 stock market crash...
> 
> George




Not all pensions have COLA and some, like my husbands'- which has been cut horribly- have a finite length of duration. In his case- 10 years or something like that.


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## WinniWoman (Oct 19, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> My advice is to keep checking out CCRCs until you sign a contract with one.  You never know when a better alternative will appear.  I think I checked out 6 or 7 before finally selecting the one where I currently live...
> 
> I made two great decisions when I retired.  One was moving into a quality CCRC.  The other was taking my Pension in monthly payments rather than as a lump sum.  For 18 years and counting I have not only been getting my monthly Pension payments but also my 3% annual (compounding) COLA.  Who knows how much of my lump sum would be left particularly since I would have received it before the 2008 stock market crash...
> 
> George




Not all pensions have COLA and some, like my husbands'- which has been cut horribly- have a finite length of duration. In his case- 10 years or something like that.


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## Panina (Oct 19, 2018)

mpumilia said:


> Not all pensions have COLA and some, like my husbands'- which has been cut horribly- have a finite length of duration. In his case- 10 years or something like that.


My pension doesn’t have Cola so it is worth less each year that passes.


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## amycurl (Oct 19, 2018)

"People still have pensions?" says the Gen Xer....


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## rapmarks (Oct 19, 2018)

amycurl said:


> "People still have pensions?" says the Gen Xer....


Yeah and every few months someone introduces a bill to cut them or gut them. So far so good


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## isisdave (Oct 20, 2018)

Yeah, what's a pension?


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## clifffaith (Nov 3, 2018)

Yesterday we visited Maravilla in Santa Barbara. Beautiful architecture and grounds. This is the place that I mentioned up thread allows the public to come in for meals, and apparently they do quite a bit of walk in trade. But the only hipsters you'd find eating here are those with artificial hips! Nice menu, with lunch at $13 and dinner at $16, including soup/salad, entree, dessert and beverage.

Maravilla turns out to be a senior living community, not a Continuing Care Retirement Community. They do check on you if you haven't checked in by 10am, there is an emergency button in the bathroom, they do have social, cultural and recreational activities. You get a full breakfast, and then either lunch or dinner. But if you need care you hire it in (they have an outfit they work with on site, or you can bring in your own help as long as they are properly accredited) or you move to their assisted living/memory care wing. There is no skilled nursing available.

The main attractions are a much lower buy-in and the availability of three bedrooms. Why would we need three bedrooms? Because we can have my mom move in. Every CCRC we visited required that any occupants have a financial stake in the community; so if Cliff died I couldn't have my indigent sister move in. But at Maravilla that is not an issue, there'd just be the $1200 monthly fee for a second or third occupant. They require no financial application, and they can and will kick you out for lack of payment, unlike the CCRCs which make sure you are solvent before you move in and are committed to keeping you housed even if your funds run out.

Once we return home we'll lay the numbers out for Maravilla vs Carlsbad. You'll probably hear my mother from three states away saying NO NO NO if we decide to pursue a discussion with her regarding whether she'd ever be interested in joining us. For walking access to shops and beach, Carlsbad wins hands down as far as I'm concerned. If we could get my parents to actually look even briefly at what we are planning, rather than dismiss the concept out of hand, it would be an easier discussion. I'd love to see her put herself on the wait list for a studio in Carlsbad.


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## clifffaith (Sep 19, 2019)

We are officially at the top of the Carlsbad CCRC waitlist -- almost exactly two years from when we gave them our $1K intent deposit. There are two 2-bedroom units available. I declined them because of the situation with Dad in hospice and my sister, who lives with my parents, leaving Mom who has a hard time seeing and walking, on her own for a week at a time while she is 90 minutes away pet sitting. Truth be told I want our house ready to list at almost an instant's notice, and although we have repainted one room so it is no longer Smurf blue, and put in a new ornamental wall ( 18") to replace a leaning one, we still have touch up painting to do (or more, thanks to a cat who destroys door jambs), our own home inspection to point out things that need rectifying, and lots more downsizing to do. Also, at 63 I'm going to be the youngest occupant so I'd really prefer to move no earlier than 2021 when at least I'll have Medicare in common with everyone! Truth be told, I could have 30 years at this place and I want to do the math twenty times to make sure I don't outlive my funds, regardless that once they allow you in they won't kick you out unless your lack of funds is due to gambling or giving them away. It would also be easier to be local when my parents (86 & 84 and in bad health) die, as I mentioned a few weeks ago in a thread about being executor of their estate when I expect to have issues with my sister.

We have a week at the Carlsbad Village timeshare in October, so looking forward to walks (or hobbles depending on how my back is that week) around town and will get the CCRC marketing lady to give us access to their ocean side deck.


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