# TUG promotes the sale of timshares for $1



## Royal Flush (Nov 24, 2011)

Hello!
I am a new member of TUG, but not new to TUG nor am I new to the timeshare industry. 
I appreciate that TUG offers this forum and a marketplace, but it seems pointless when TUG is sending out newsletters to celebrate the sale of a 
timeshare for $1. I spent a lot of time writing to a person at TUG and this person refuses to see the sense in my points. 


This is a email I wrote to TUG. Your comments please. 


We just joined TUG thinking that we can find out about a more FAIR and HONEST approach to Timeshares. 

We paid very big $$ for Carriage Hills (NEW! in 2003) as we knew Nothing about timeshares. I know that people need to be informed in order to make good choices and to assess the inventory of timeshares that GLUT THE MARKET since people are not informed about the great vacations they can access cheaply in their own back yard. GREAT for low income families!

I fail to see how crowing over people "buying" a timeshare for $1 helps the cause (in the TUG newsletter). Now you have people who were ripped off by the developer trying to sell a timeshare that they paid so much for and TUG creating a non-market by making a big deal over all the timeshares for sale by desperate people for a $1. Is this just and fair, if so to WHOM? 

What is the point of setting up a market place to sell timeshares when people (thanks to TUG advertising the $1 timeshare) expect to get a timeshare for literally nothing? This is a swing too far the other way. 
It is like people not realizing they can buy a car that is used, everyone buying new cars, then suddenly the info about good used cars gets out there. How fair is it to expect the owners to sell the car they bought for 12,000 for a $1  just to be rid of it? How does that make any sense at all! 
We had someone email us from the TUG bargain basement , expecting to have legal fees included for our bargain timeshare, for sale at $299. 
If more people knew about timeshares, really understood, there would be a fair resale price and much more demand. 

I hope TUG will reconsider the goal that TUG has in mind and reassess how to be fair with others and to really help this horribly run timeshare industry by educating people and creating conditions to make a fair resale market, not a race to the bottom to see how low can you go in the timeshare resale!!  How the heck can a fair (no upfront fee ) licenced reseller of timeshares compete with free? 

let’s try to make sense here.


----------



## Patri (Nov 24, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> GREAT for low income families!



Totally disagree. These families should NOT buy a timeshare. The upfront cost from a developer could bankrupt them. A $1 timeshare might work if they can afford the maintenance fees and special assessments. But their first priorities should be a roof over their heads, food, clothing, transportation and healthcare.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 24, 2011)

The sales on TUG are just a tiny fraction of the resale market - not the determining factor.  You will find $1 timeshares on every timeshare website on the internet.  It is the state of the economy - it has nothing to do with what TUG is or is not doing.  

Besides that, TUG probably has more BUYERS than sellers.  We are a group of people who like timesharing, so we are interested in good deals.  When someone wants to get out from under their timeshare that is selling EVERYWHERE for $1, and they find a buyer on TUG - everyone is a winner. 

It is naive to blame TUG for the current resale market.  You made a bad financial decision when you bought from the developer.  I did the same thing with my first purchase - but after that, I did my homework, and I've learned how to make timesharing work very well for us, so I know that is entirely possible.



> How the heck can a fair (no upfront fee ) licenced reseller of timeshares compete with free?


  Is this your real point?  That your business can't compete with the prices on TUG?  Are you complaining here, because our owner's prices are lower than your prices?  If that is your point - then I don't think TUG is the audience you are looking for.


----------



## gpurtz (Nov 24, 2011)

Nothing is worth more than a Buyer is willing to pay.  If Buyers will only pay a $1 for a week, then that is what it is worth.  The timeshare marketplace will always determine the value.  Unfortunately there is no demand, therefore, no market, for many, many timeshare weeks.  When you add to this the ever-increasing maintenance fees and what RCI is doing to the market, you can appreciate the fact that TUG has not affected the value of your week or that of anyone else.


----------



## Pit (Nov 24, 2011)

Hate to burst your bubble, but TUG doesn't determine the market price of timeshares. And raising prices, will not increase demand.



> How the heck can a fair (no upfront fee ) licenced reseller of timeshares compete with free?



By making lots of sales and charging on the back-end for a professional transaction service. There are many timeshares that are nothing but a liability to the owner. They will pay to get rid of the liability (Exhibit A: PCC).

You're barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## slip (Nov 24, 2011)

This goes on in all industry's, just ask the mom and pop store owner who is
trying to compete with Walmart pricing. I've payed $10,000 for a new car
(a long time ago) and gave it away just to get rid of it years later.
 Buyers of anything need to be educated. I looked into timeshares in the mid '80's. 
I thought it was a great idea but I felt at developers prices it would take too long to 
get to the breakeven point. 25 years later after the kids are gone, I look into timeshares 
and find Tug. I bought 2 timeshares for $3.75. Just a few years earlier the same 
timeshares were selling for $5,000 on the resale market.

Supply far out weighs the demand and the bad economy definitely took it's toll.
I think they will rebound some but it may take a few years. Just my .02.


----------



## ronparise (Nov 24, 2011)

Tug dosent advertise or promote the sale of timeshares for $1, rather tug provides a forum where folks can discuss timeshares and tug provides a vehicle that one might use to advertise a timeshare for sale

The value is what it is...dont shoot the messenger


----------



## JeffW (Nov 24, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> ... by educating people and creating conditions to make a fair resale market...



The resale market, in ANYTHING, is always the combination of what someone is willing to purchase for, and what someone is willing to sell for.  To a degree, basic supply and demand.  Some vacation clubs (Marriott, Hyatt, probably Disney) have ROFR - Right of First Refusal - as a way to keep the public from thinking that the new baseline price for a timeshare is say $100, because one desperate seller was willing to sell for that.  But that's likely the exception.

The reality is that $1 resorts are the exception.  If my goal is to buy a Key West or Marriott or Disney resort, I'll probably never own one.  There's still enough residual value in those weeks, that even if one would start on an ebay auction for $1, it's likely to end up at $$$$.  People looking to buy say Key West know that you'll never find one at $1, but $4000 is better than the retail price of $20k or more.  

No seller is happy at selling for $1.  Realize that they'd lost 100% of whatever they paid for it (many likely at the full retail price), and have been paying regularly increasing annual fees, with a good number not even having gone on any vacations.  There's no exploiting or profiteering by these people.  They are just looking to get out of an ongoing, unrewarding debt.

The group that is exploiting and profiteering at the postcard companies that promise, "for a fee, we can sell your timeshare".  Scan the posts of TUG, and find out how many people have paid those fees, hoping to get rid of their timeshare units, with the only thing that ends up getting rid of is the money for that fee.  I think TUG saw this, and said, "We're going to provide an avenue for people that need to dispose of their timeshares with as little overhead as possible."

Royal Flush, are you telling me that if you would have found the exact timeshare you bought for less (including $1 sales), you wouldn't have bought it that way?  While there are some timeshares have have 'developer' perks, the reality for most is "a week is a week".  While I can appreciate you being less than happy with paying full price for your resort, there's really not much you can do to slow what, especially in recession-like times, will be a good number of people looking to get rid of timeshare obligations at almost any price.

Jeff

PS - Welcome to TUG!


----------



## fishingguy (Nov 24, 2011)

*huh???*

Royal Flush wrote:


> I hope TUG will reconsider the goal that TUG has in mind and reassess how to be fair with others and to really help this horribly run timeshare industry by educating people and creating conditions to make a fair resale market, not a race to the bottom to see how low can you go in the timeshare resale!! How the heck can a fair (no upfront fee ) licenced reseller of timeshares compete with free?



The market is what it is, and there is nothing you, anyone else or TUG can do about that. If a timeshare sells for $1, $100 or more, so be it -- since prices are set by those willing to sell and willing to buy at a prevailing price point.  It's the law of supply and demand, for those in the know.

If you came here with the intent to sell timeshares at higher than prevailing market prices, then you will likely be disappointed.  Especially since the current economic climate has generally made supported prices for resale timeshares collapse -- a fact of life that anyone who bought at full retail price, shocked to learn.

In many ways one might even be able to say, that the current practices of resale [and retail sellers], has resulted in the demise of the current timeshare market. Especially given the practices of those associated with Post Card Companies, scammers, etc.!  I liken it to the Tulip Bulb crash that happened in Europe during the 1700's.

Lastly, I think TUG does a good job of educating people on how to best use, evaluate, understand and buy/sell timeshares.  I never assumed, read or heard that TUG should support licensed sellers/resellers in getting higher prices -- which could be an _exercise in futility_.  The market will run it's course.


----------



## presley (Nov 24, 2011)

I think when it comes to TS purchases, you only need to think about the value that you will get out of it.  I see no benefit to comparing what other people paid for something, nor do I care.  If someone buys a TS for $1 and all it is worth is $1 to them, good for them.  If someone else buys the same thing for $25K and it is worth $25K to them, good for them.  Happy vacations for all!


----------



## easyrider (Nov 24, 2011)

@ Royal Flush

Totally empathic. It can be frustrating to see something of value sell for pennies on the dollar. 

As you have learned at TUG, the product you purchased has very little chance of reselling for anything close to what you paid but if you needed to get rid of it, TUG  can help.

If you have the time you could try to sell it on Creigslist or your local classified. If a person is looking at Redweek and other timeshare internet sites they probably have looked at TUG and Ebay.

Many folks at Tug have learned how to rent their timeshares out, maybe thats an option for you.

Anyway, good luck.


----------



## gpurtz (Nov 24, 2011)

I'd like to do business with the person who can be happy paying $25K for the same week his neighbor bought for $1.


----------



## timeos2 (Nov 24, 2011)

Unfortunately the vast majority of timeshare weeks are only worth $1 or may even require payment of things like closing to move it. IMO and experience even the best of the best both locations and times aren't worth more than $5000 tops. Beyond that is money wasted or lost as you'll never get it back.

The real cost of every timeshare are those annual fees. For $1 timeshares it may be in the hundreds while the better resorts/locations/ times are devalued by annual fees that are often considerably higher - even in the thousands per year. Both can be good values but not if you pay too much in purchase price.

As others say TUG is not setting the price but simply refecting the market.


----------



## ampaholic (Nov 24, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> Hello!
> 
> This is a email I wrote to TUG. Your comments please.
> 
> ...



Instead of such a long and tortuous rant (requiring a snip) perhaps you could organize your gripes into categories?

Cat 1: Why is the market not fair and honest?

Cat 2: Why is TUG doing ______ that makes the market _______ ?

Cat 3: Why did I fall for the hype? "We paid very big $$ for Carriage Hills (NEW! in 2003)"  (actually you answer your own question)  "as we knew Nothing about timeshares."

Cat 4: How can I compete with the cheap resales? 

Cat 5: Why won't TUG help me compete? "I hope TUG will reconsider the goal that TUG has in mind and reassess how to be fair with others ..."

Just my $.003 (inflation)


----------



## heathpack (Nov 24, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> I fail to see how crowing over people "buying" a timeshare for $1 helps the cause (in the TUG newsletter). Now you have people who were ripped off by the developer trying to sell a timeshare that they paid so much for and TUG creating a non-market by making a big deal over all the timeshares for sale by desperate people for a $1. Is this just and fair, if so to WHOM? here.



It is best for the current owners at a resort to have the week in the hands of a person who actually wants it right now.  Someone who sells for $1 no longer wants the TS & more of those owners will walk away and no longer make MF payments.  Someone who picks up a TS at whatever price at least has every intention of paying MF for the immediately foreseeable future.  Those owners are a godsend to the HOAs.  The resale price is only one piece of the puzzle.  The continued existence of each TS resort depends on having owners who still want "in" the system.  Getting the unwanted TSs transferred is doing the industry a huge service, IMO.

H

H


----------



## AwayWeGo (Nov 24, 2011)

*Not That There's Anything Wrong With That.*




Royal Flush said:


> TUG promotes the sale of timshares for $1


Shux, selling'm for $1 is greatly to be preferred over getting bamboozled out of major money by 1 of those up-front fee phony timeshare sale hornswoggles. 

And for sure buying them for $1 beats paying many thousands to some timeshare company for exactly the same thing (or the equivalent or something not as good as a $1 timeshare). 

Not all of those eBay $1 opening bid & no reserve timeshares actually sell for $1.  For example, in recent months we won 3 of those $1 opening bid eBay timeshare auctions with winning bids in the neighborhood of $165 & $203 & $105, respectively.  Plus, if you search the completed eBay auctions, you will notice that lots & lots of the $1 timeshare auctions come & go with _zero_ bids -- i.e., nobody wants'm even for $1.

During that same period, we also gave away two _-- 2 --_ perfectly good timeshares, preferring to give them away for nothing than to try selling them for next to nothing.  Currently, we are in the process of giving away 2 more, for the same reason.  

What TUG really promotes is becoming an informed customer before buying timeshares.  Ditto before throwing good money after bad by falling for any of the raw deals & borderline scams aimed at further victimizing people who paid full freight & later became desperate to get out from under the unrelenting ongoing costs of timeshare ownership.  

A big part of the problem is that there is no natural demand for timeshares.  The only way the timeshare companies can move inventory is by high-pressure razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo designed to get buyers to commit on the spot with no thought of researching the product & no opportunity for any comparison shopping.  Hence, many if not most timeshare owners are people who leapt before they looked -- i.e., bought in haste & came to regret it.  

The professional full-freight timeshare sellers know that -- & then keep on selling'm that way anyhow.  In fact, that's the very foundation of their biz. plan.  (Shux upon'm.)

The aftermarket bamboozlers figure that people who bought timeshares at full freight tend to be leap-before-looking types, so they'll just hit'm with as many rounds of "relief" & up-front fee hornswoggles as they'll fall for, over & over till eventually (if ever) they wise up. 

Click here for a hypothetical nightmare scenario illustrating multiple overlapping layers of timeshare hornswoggle & bamboozle that are out there waiting to ensnare the unwary.

_Full Disclosure*:*_ After the linked item was written, the dollar amounts involved mostly went up-up-up. Plus, for many people the multi-scam scenario turned out to be more real than hypothetical.  So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## AwayWeGo (Nov 24, 2011)

*Full Freight All The Way.*




gpurtz said:


> I'd like to do business with the person who can be happy paying $25K for the same week his neighbor bought for $1.


Somebody ought to introduce you to Big City Sally.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## ampaholic (Nov 24, 2011)

OK - I think Alan gives the OP the best answer. Give him the $3.00 and we can all go eat Turkey.


----------



## Wonka (Nov 24, 2011)

I think the poster has a point.  I suspect TUG is more influential on resale pricing (for buyers) than most of us realize.  That's good for the buyer, bad for the seller.  But, yes...we only reach a tiny fraction of the market.  Otherwise, the upfront guys wouldn't be in business duping people (sellers).  

I own several that are simply "money pits", and have no idea why I keep them and paying fees of $1000 more every single year and not using them.  $1 is starting to look like a good deal.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 24, 2011)

Wonka said:


> I own several that are simply "money pits", and have no idea why I keep them and paying fees of $1000 more every single year and not using them.  $1 is starting to look like a good deal.



You have choices - why aren't you using your timeshares, or exchanging them, or renting them, or letting friends, or family, or charities use them, or giving them away?

You have all the resources right here on TUG... and lots of people with the experience to help.


----------



## MomoD (Nov 24, 2011)

TUG is not responsible for the $1 timeshare. TUG is responsible for allowing honest people to sell their unwanted timeshare in a safe, no hastle environment, there are no sharks here. We bought 2 of our 3 timeshares from developers and spent $$$, finding TUG was the best thing to happen to us. No-one makes you sell or give away your timeshare, this you do of your own free will. Please don't blame TUG for what's happening in the timeshare market


----------



## Talent312 (Nov 24, 2011)

I notice that RF has not replied to any of foregoing, so either his was merely a drive-by posting, or he now realizes how sophomoric his post looks in hindsight.


----------



## ampaholic (Nov 24, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> I notice that RF has not replied to any of foregoing, so either his was merely a drive-by posting, or he now realizes how sophomoric his post looks in hindsight.



I don't want to sound disagreeable but RF paid his $15 so I want to answer his/her questions as best I can ...

... I don't find his/her questions (rant more correctly) so much sophomoric per se - as just much too broad and general to be easily answered.

Sort of like "why is love so great?"


----------



## pjrose (Nov 24, 2011)

AwayWeGo said:


> Somebody ought to introduce you to Big City Sally.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



OMG Alan, thanks for the laughs!  
:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## Wonka (Nov 24, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> You have choices - why aren't you using your timeshares, or exchanging them, or renting them, or letting friends, or family, or charities use them, or giving them away?
> 
> You have all the resources right here on TUG... and lots of people with the experience to help.



First, my adult children cannot plan far enough in advance and wouldn't want the annual fee.  In addition, timeshares just aren't "adventuresome" enough for them.    I've offered the use to friends as well, and they aren't interested.  I suspect they've heard too many negatives about timeshares and I'm not interested in educating friends or having to convince them to use something that I've prepaid.  It just isn't worth effort.  I'd consider giving them to a charity, but I don't think many charities still accept them.  We used to have a TUG member that formed a charitable group of some kind....but, I don't remember her name and don't know if it's still an active charity, or not.  Giving them to a stranger that could afford to pay a little something, but would rather have them for "free" just doesn't sit well with me.  More deserving folks just couldn't afford the continuing maintenance fee.

As far as usage goes, there is potential liability in offering the usage of a week to an unknown individual.


----------



## chriskre (Nov 24, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> How the heck can a fair (no upfront fee ) licenced reseller of timeshares compete with free?



By focusing on timeshares that people want.   
There is no point trying to sell something worth only $1 so move onto those few TS's that have value.   

I've purchased almost all my TS's close to my home resale and with this opportunity in the market to re-allocate my portfolio I have not had a problem finding a grateful new owner of my $1 TS's.  You don't have to give them away on the internet, you'd be surprised at how some of your friends may want your unwanted TS.  For many getting away for a week is all the vacation time they get and if it's close to home, then all the better.  Staycations are in vogue right now.  I guess it helps if your TS is on the beach or a lake or something of interest.  

I just helped a friend "sell" her TS in Orlando on ebay for $1.00.  She's just happy that she doesn't have to make another MF payment.  It is what it is.  Dump that unwanted puppy and cut your losses while you still can or next year you'll be in the same boat.  :deadhorse:


----------



## JudyS (Nov 24, 2011)

TUG is not the reason that many timeshares are selling for $1. Other places such as eBay were loaded with $1 timeshares before TUG ever set up the TUG "Bargain Deals" board. 

Originally, TUG did not have a "Bargain Deals" section on its discussion board, nor did it have a "Bargain Basement" section on its Marketplace (ad) section. But in the past few years, the US has been hit by a serious recession and many people want *out* from their timeshares. The "Bargain Deals" and "Bargain Basement" sections are designed to help owners with that, while hopefully finding a great deal for someone who wants to get *in* to timesharing.  

Since you mention Carriage Hills, maybe you live in Canada, which has largely been spared the effects of the recent worldwide recession. Believe me, there are many people in the US who can no longer afford the annual fees on their timeshares. TUG is trying to help them out.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 25, 2011)

Wonka said:


> First, my adult children cannot plan far enough in advance and wouldn't want the annual fee.  In addition, timeshares just aren't "adventuresome" enough for them.    I've offered the use to friends as well, and they aren't interested.  I suspect they've heard too many negatives about timeshares and I'm not interested in educating friends or having to convince them to use something that I've prepaid.  It just isn't worth effort.  I'd consider giving them to a charity, but I don't think many charities still accept them.  We used to have a TUG member that formed a charitable group of some kind....but, I don't remember her name and don't know if it's still an active charity, or not.  Giving them to a stranger that could afford to pay a little something, but would rather have them for "free" just doesn't sit well with me.  More deserving folks just couldn't afford the continuing maintenance fee.
> 
> As far as usage goes, there is potential liability in offering the usage of a week to an unknown individual.



So you are saying that you would rather continue to pay the maintenance fees for timeshares that you don't want, and don't use, rather than let someone else use  them - either for just a week or permanently.  Is that what you really want?  

Even if you can't bear to let go of them for free, there are reputable charities out there like the Make A Wish foundation, and military family charities, that would love the donation of just the usage (not ownership) of your timeshares. Wouldn't you feel better about doing that, than just letting them sit empty and unused, while you pay the bill?

Regarding liability-   Are you aware that almost all timeshares require all guests to provide a credit card at check-in and any fees or damages go on that card?  Think about all the TS's that are used by guests every year - either as renters or exchangers.

One note - You are correct - there are NO charities that will take your timeshare for free - most will charge you several thousand dollars, which makes giving it away to an individual look a lot more attractive.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Nov 25, 2011)

The OP's rant is woefully naive.  

Yes, you were duped.  Many of us were duped at least once.  

What can you do about it?  Use the timeshare and enjoy it, and if you want more weeks to use, those $1 timeshares are very appealing. 

Whose fault is it that timeshare is not worth anything near what you paid for it?  It's the developer's.  It's the pushy salespeople, the entire sales pitch, and the gift you accepted at the time you booked that presentation.  Marketing a timeshare is expensive for the developer, but they make out alright in the end, believe me. 

If you think TUG is a nasty place that devalues what you own, you need to place your blame elsewhere.

I know of a few companies who would say your timeshare is worth a lot less than nothing.  They will charge you $3,500 or more to relieve you of your timeshare.  That makes a timeshare have negative value.  Once a fool, always a fool.  That is how those companies feel about you, as a retail buyer of a timeshare.  They think you are nothing short of stupid for falling for the developer's pitch.  

Use your timeshare and enjoy it.  Don't come to TUG and complain about the $1 timeshare.  We have known a long time about the $1 timeshare, but I can tell you that the same timeshares now selling for $1 were not just $1 five years ago.  The economy has really hurt the value, but TUG has no responsibility in the loss of value.


----------



## Mel (Nov 25, 2011)

Actually, the people to blame most for the $1 resales are the people (as a group) who are selling them.  Many of them paid good money for their timeshares, not really understanding what they were buying, then didn't figure out how to use them properly.  When they decided they didn't really want them, because they couldn't make them work the way they wanted, they set their resale price too high.  When it didn't sell for that price, they decided it was worthless, or even paid someone else (a PCC) to take it off their hands.

Would anyone do the same with a regular house?  No - I've seen houses sit on the market for 2 years, even when they were unoccupied, and the owner still paid property taxes and insurance that whole time, so they were losing money!

Yes, the original prices are jacked way up to pay marketing costs, but that doesn't mean resellers should give up and give them away.  

Then there's the maintenance fees.  There are two major issues that drive maintenance fees up very quickly.  One of them is deadbeats - people who stop paying maintenance fees because they don't plan to use their timeshare, and don't consider that they are driving everyone else's cost up as a result (most honestly think it's the developer who loses).  This must be dealt with by swift action on the HOA's part, to get those weeks into the hands of people willing to pay the fees.  (Incidentally, many of the $1 timeshares used to be $1 to take over the payments, so they were not as cheep as they looked).

The other issue is fees that were set too low for many years, resulting in poor maintenance.  At some point, it catches up to you, and you have to maintain the resort.  The choice becomes one of major assessment, significantly increased fees over several years (and a slower schedule to refurbish everything).  Owners want low fees, but the reality is that those fees pay to maintain our property.   Would you put off those same maintenance issues with your main home?  Would you put up with your landlord putting them off?

With the economy the way it is right now, many owners are feeling pinched, and the short term solution is to get rid of the maintenance fees, as quickly as they can.  It's a very shortsighted plan, because it ignores the whole reason for purchasing the timeshare in the first place.  In the short term, it is cheaper to get a rental for less than the maintenance fees.  But once the economy recovers, ownership will once again be the best option for many of us - though not all.  Timeshare ownership is much like home ownership - a great thing, for the right demographic - those who might otherwise purchase a summer home on the beach, or who are already going to spend the money on vacations.  It's not for those whose income stream was never stable, and who have a good chance of finding themselves living month-to-month.


----------



## Wonka (Nov 25, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> So you are saying that you would rather continue to pay the maintenance fees for timeshares that you don't want, and don't use, rather than let someone else use  them - either for just a week or permanently.  Is that what you really want?
> 
> Even if you can't bear to let go of them for free, there are reputable charities out there like the Make A Wish foundation, and military family charities, that would love the donation of just the usage (not ownership) of your timeshares. Wouldn't you feel better about doing that, than just letting them sit empty and unused, while you pay the bill?
> 
> ...



I believe I indicated I'd consider letting a charity use the week, but the credit card simply lessens the risk exposure.  I don't believe it eliminates the risk. I'd consider letting  a deserving, person in need use the week if the risk can  be fully avoided.   What I've said is I won't give the weeks away to anyone that can well afford to pay a little something but would prefer to get something for nothing.  I'm sure you've heard the old saying "people want something for nothing".  In my opinion, (which it appears isn't yours) itt seems like there are too many folks like that these days.


----------



## Mel (Nov 25, 2011)

Correct.  A renter`s credit card deposit does not protect you fully.  Most resorts will go afteryour renter first,but if they damage a unit beyond their credit limit, you may find youtself next in line.  They have more info about you, and can place a lein on your deed, among other things.  At least if you exchange, the exchange company acts as a buffer, and they have deeper pockets.

If someone cannot afford to pay rent, they also cannot afford the liability ifthey damage your property.  Plus, people tend to be value your property more when they pay.


----------



## stevedmatt (Nov 25, 2011)

I didn't take the time to read the entire thread so sorry if this has been said...

2 things:

1. Fair market value. A (insert product here) is worth what someone is willing to pay for it in the venue that the seller chose to use for advertising. 

2. Timeshares are just another industry that the educated people take advantage of the uneducated people. It happens in all aspects of business.

In this day and age with all the information around on the internet, it amazes me that people that don't intending to buy anything go to a sales pitch and spend $25,000 on a product that is readily available for $1. They don't even take the time to research their purchase after they make it quickly enough to rescind. I rarely spend over $100 without first researching the product I want to buy. 

I don't mean to sound harsh but sometimes reality is harsh.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 26, 2011)

Mel said:


> Correct.  A renter`s credit card deposit does not protect you fully.  Most resorts will go afteryour renter first,but if they damage a unit beyond their credit limit, you may find youtself next in line.  They have more info about you, and can place a lein on your deed, among other things.  At least if you exchange, the exchange company acts as a buffer, and they have deeper pockets.
> 
> If someone cannot afford to pay rent, they also cannot afford the liability ifthey damage your property.  Plus, people tend to be value your property more when they pay.



What are you basing this opinion on?


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 26, 2011)

The times share industry market primarly to family with income over $50,000 per year and who have high school diploma and college degrees.


----------



## Talent312 (Nov 26, 2011)

stevedmatt said:


> I rarely spend over $100 without first researching the product I want to buy.



Many peep, like my DW, are impulse buyers, who tend to buy things that look nice, feel nice and their gut-instinct says is a fair value. But there's the rub. Buying a TS (or any major ticket item) is not like buying shoes... about which my DW is an expert. They have no experience with TS's, so their instinct for crap (can you say "crap" on TUG?) fails them and they accept whatever the salesman says at face-value. Its really kind'a sad.


----------



## stevedmatt (Nov 26, 2011)

pedro47 said:


> The times share industry market primarly to family with income over $50,000 per year and who have high school diploma and college degrees.



If this is directed toward me, I wasn't referring to education levels in general but education about a certain product/industry.


----------



## dougp26364 (Nov 26, 2011)

Royal Flush said:


> Hello!
> I am a new member of TUG, but not new to TUG nor am I new to the timeshare industry.
> I appreciate that TUG offers this forum and a marketplace, but it seems pointless when TUG is sending out newsletters to celebrate the sale of a
> timeshare for $1. I spent a lot of time writing to a person at TUG and this person refuses to see the sense in my points.
> ...



I'll try to address you're statement directly rather than incorportating all the previous responces.

First, TUG isn't a place that promotes timeshares for $1. It's members are owners who have learned the resale market and are the ones promoting timeshare resales vs buying direct from the developer. Many (most) members on TUG became timeshare owners by making that first purchase from the developer.

Second, timeshare resale is what it is. What is glossed over in the developer presentations is that this isn't the same real estate transaction as buying a house. Our first presentation was "Own a piece of the Las Vegas Strip" (Polo Towers) followed by this is a vacation invetstment, not a real estate transaction. People don't hear the second part but they do hear the first part. It doesn't help when developer sales points out THEIR escalating prices but don't compare it to the depressed resale pricing. 

TUG doesn't set the resale pricing or even promote pricing. TUG members report it and by virtue of the fact most have learned not to pay developer pricing, promote resale purchases. 

With this bad economy, many timeshare owners have found that timeshare MF's are akin to a huge boulder tied to their ankle's when they're in a sea of debt and having trouble keeping their heads above water. It's times like these when desperation sets in. 

First they believe the increasing prices the salesman originally sold them and believe their timeshare has traditional real estate marketability. They often get taken by the sharks promting the idea they can sell that timeshare for a profit but, they want their advertising fee's upfront, after which they're never heard from again. Some will then consider defaulting while others will begin searching, only to learn the bad news that timeshare is worse than buying a new car and seeing it's value plummet as they drive it off the lot. 

There has never been a strong market for timeshare resales. People just don't know what they are, it's not somethine one shops for or even something many consider when making vacation plans. It's often to complicated of a product to successfully sell outside of the developer sales floor. When you have a glut of people desperate to get out and no viable resale market or demand for what you have and, when what your trying to sell (or even give away) comes with an ongoing expense equal to what they can rent accomadations for on short notice, it becomes tough to even give a timeshare away. Thus, you're now seeing a glut of timeshares for $1.

Worse yet, you're seeing timeshares for LESS than $1. Some have such little appeal on the resale market that not only are they sold for $1, but the transfer fee's and closing costs are paid for by the seller. 

Now consider this, what would the market be like without TUG? There might not be anyone to take on the ongoing expenses of timeshares at any price. Defaults might be considerably higher than they are now, forcing timeshare homeowners assoc. to increase MF's even higher or, worse yet putting more timeshare projects into default and bankruptcy than what we've already seen. 

TUG doesn't set or promote resale pricing. The market forces set the price. TUG mearly reports what's going on and helps timeshare owners learn how to use their timeshares (personal vacations, rentals et....) or get rid of their timeshares as best can be done (sell, default or deed back to the HOA or developer as the case may be).


----------



## Wonka (Nov 26, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> What are you basing this opinion on?



"Needy" doesn't define the character of an individual.  But, if one is "needy", it does imply their financial resources are limited, no?

It would seem that Mel is simply indicating if the recipient of "free usage" is "needy" from a financial standpoint, the usage of a credit card may not alleviate the risk.

Denise, you're certainly free to do whatever you'd like with your unused weeks and to give away your timeshares if you'd like.  I don't believe not doing so is uncharitable or unconscionable as your post seems to imply.  But, I can see your point of view.

Back to the initial thread, I don't believe TUG has contributed greatly to the decline of resale prices or developer prices.  When I first joined TUG, you couldn't find the "freebies".  Folks discounted their timeshares greatly to move them, but they weren't free (unless they were real trading dogs).  The addition of points, trading values, etc. changed all that.  In my opinion, all the bragging on TUG about DK trades did result in RCI adjusting the trading value. So, TUG has had an impact on the market to some extent although not the extreme the poster has suggested.


----------



## JeffW (Nov 26, 2011)

Wonka;1206769.. So said:
			
		

> I'd wager ebay has had a lot greater effect on resale prices of anything than TUG, or any other single website.
> 
> 
> Jeff


----------



## funtime (Nov 26, 2011)

I agree with the OP as to one point.  Many people see the numerous timeshares for sale for 1.00 on TUG and automaticlaly assume that the bottom has completely dropped out of the market for all timeshares.  They then may post a timeshare on TUG for 1.00 for a timeshare  that has much better value - these are usually snapped up in a day or two.  So, while I have benefited from the TUG bargain board, I would urge those thinking of offloading their timeshares to check first with  redweek and ebay and/or other sources to see if there is some value to the timeshare.   

Secondly, as to a lot of the 1.00 timeshares on TUG - while they may appear as a bit of a castoff timeshare, the poster often lists the creative trades or other uses they used it for - in other words, it does have some value, primarily as a trader.  And, of course, if the new owner lives nearby, other advantages start apearing such as driveability to the resort and/or day use privileges.  Funtime


----------



## pedro47 (Nov 26, 2011)

stevedmatt said:


> If this is directed toward me, I wasn't referring to education levels in general but education about a certain product/industry.



No!! This is the market that are purchasing time share resorts.


----------



## JeffW (Nov 26, 2011)

If we're assigning blame, I'll throw a good portion at the developers.  To a degree, like what happened with house mortgages over the last decade, part of the sellers responsibility should have been doing some due diligence to make sure the buyers could afford the house/unit for the life of the loan, not just the at purchase time.  If that was done, then you don't have all these deperation sales.  The reality is that a lot of those trying to get rid of timeshares (if they are still paying for them) probably never should have had them to begin with.

Jeff


----------



## Wonka (Nov 26, 2011)

JeffW said:


> I'd wager ebay has had a lot greater effect on resale prices of anything than TUG, or any other single website.
> 
> 
> Jeff



You'd easily win that bet!  Before the internet and ebay, craigslist, etc., it wasn't easy to find a "used" (resale) timeshare and a 50-60% discount from developer prices seemed like a very good deal.


----------



## ampaholic (Nov 27, 2011)

Actually I believe TUG members do promote the sale of $1 timeshares - *if they are worth $1.*

But overall TUG members likely help raise the average sale price of timeshares by actually bidding on them and buying them.

Personally I purchased zero before I joined TUG - while I purchased 7 *after* I learned what all I could do with them on TUG.

yea TUG


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2011)

Wonka said:


> I don't believe not doing so is uncharitable or unconscionable as your post seems to imply.  But, I can see your point of view.



I don't think you have any obligation at all to be charitable with your timeshares, but I do think you are hurting yourself with the stance you have taken.  On one hand you seem to say that you hate to see them sitting empty - but on the other hand you seem reluctant to do anything about it.  

It is painful for all of us to face the realities of today's timeshare market.  Believe me - I know!  I bought my first timeshare (pre-TUG) from the developer on Maui and paid $45K    Now that timeshare is going for around $10K!  On top of that - we prefer to go to Kauai now!  So I understand how you feel - but my point is that you have lots of options, even if you can't use your timeshare any more (why aren't you using them?)  You don't have to just pay the maintenance fees and let them sit empty - unless you want to.  I bet if you started seriously exploring your options, you would find some that are acceptable to you - and even recoup some of your maintenance fees.

Good luck!


----------



## Mel (Nov 27, 2011)

> my post:
> A renter`s credit card deposit does not protect you fully. Most resorts will go afteryour renter first,but if they damage a unit beyond their credit limit, you may find youtself next in line. They have more info about you, and can place a lein on your deed, among other things. At least if you exchange, the exchange company acts as a buffer, and they have deeper pockets.
> 
> If someone cannot afford to pay rent, they also cannot afford the liability ifthey damage your property. Plus, people tend to be value your property more when they pay.





DeniseM said:


> What are you basing this opinion on?


As Wonka suggested, those of limited resources will not have the resources to have a large available credit limit, should they damage the property, so your liability is increased.  But also, when you "rent" for nothing, to someone you don't know, the person renting from you has nothing invested.  My experience has been that people who have no investment (monetary or otherwise) don't care as much.  They have nothing to lose if they destroy your property.

Obviously, I wouldn't dump all people without resources into one category, but think about what sometimes happens when people lose their house, or are evicted - a portion do serious damage to the property, precisely because they've already "lost everything."  Plenty don't, but it is a risk you take.

I would rather rent to someone who offers a small amount as rent, not only because of their "investment" rather than a handout, but also because it protects me.  If they pay me rent, we have a contract.  If they don't pay rent, I have made a gift - I don't usually give gifts to those I don't know.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2011)

Normally, I would not "rent for nothing" except to family members or friends or Tuggers.  I am not suggesting that the OP let random strangers use their timeshare.

That being said, I did let a young military family use one of our timeshares on Hawaii for free, because we couldn't use it or rent it.  I didn't even know them - but they have a family member who is a Tugger and they asked me if their kids could use the week when I offered it for free on TUG.   They needed a vacation, and I had an empty timeshare - I was much happier about letting them use it - than letting it sit empty.

But, what I was actually suggesting to the OP was donating the usage of just a week at a time to a reputable charity like Make A Wish or one of the Military Family Charities.  They have established programs to accept timeshare usage - and liability insurance.  AND the recipients of the week will certainly be worthy of their generosity. 

To me, it seems like a terrible waste to pay maintenance fees and then let timeshares sit empty when there are MANY other options.  Donating the usage to worthy and safe charities is just one option, of many.  YMMV


----------



## e.bram (Nov 28, 2011)

The main reason for $1.00 TSes is high MFs, caused by inefficient and corrupt management. Compare TS MFs with wholly owned condos even after adding the additional complexities of multiple ownership and occupancy.


----------



## eleodors (Nov 28, 2011)

RF, This is a fair point. The timeshare owners do not have a solid market, therefore the prices are established in a very artisanal way. A market will have a history of sales, and over time prices will converge based on historical prices, vs. spot prices. Spot prices always favor the spot buyers. 
A similar market will be someone selling 100 shares of IBM by advertising on eBay, and getting $1 for a share. And then getting beaten up when it complains that the price was unfair. 
In reality there is no proper market for TS. I would say RedWeek has the best chance to create one, with all the historical sales data, and rental data, they had accumulated in the last 5 years. 
Wouldn't be nice to have a site that can say "a gold week in HHI for Marriott is between 12,500 and 14,200, depending on oceanfront or oceanside view ". (I am not associated in any way with Redweek")

I think RFs hope was that TUG will provide more of a market mechanism. I read his post more "Why is TUG not creating more of a market", vs. the question we all are attracted to answer 
"Why are some timeshares sell for €1". 
Reality is that, if one community has a chance of creating a viable market for TS, TUG is that community. I have faith in us. I would love that TUG has a vision of becoming a database source of market data, vs. just text information.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 28, 2011)

eleodors said:


> Reality is that, if one community has a chance of creating a viable market for TS, TUG is that community. I have faith in us. I would love that TUG has a vision of becoming a database source of market data, vs. just text information.



You are only looking at the seller's perspective - TUG has as many buyers as sellers, if not more.  Why would buyers want to artificially jack up the prices of timeshares on TUG?  The timeshare market is what it is - people just need to come to grips with it, and figure out how to do the most with what they have.  

It is very possible to be successful with your timeshares today - but you have to put some effort into it. However, based on what I read on TUG, the people who complain the most are also the least likely to actually do anything about their situation.  They are unhappy with their TS portfolio - but they don't want to put out any effort to change it. 

I may be a moderator, but I am no different than the Avg. Tugger here:  I have one TS that's a bottom feeder, I have one that I bought from the developer and paid waaaay to much for, and I have 5 that are selling for $1 on ebay.   But ALL of those timeshares work very well for us....it just takes a little effort.


----------



## carl2591 (Nov 28, 2011)

funny the original poster has not come back to defend, comment or other wise agree or disagree with ANY one on his/her post..

starting to look like a con job from another "salesman" (pretending to be a owner?)  that got a deal ripped away by TUG.. 

So sad when that happens.


----------



## eleodors (Nov 28, 2011)

Denise - very fair point. 
I still think we are looking at the "it is what it is" as the only reality that can be, and we all have to deal with.

I believe that around 1280, commodity traders gathered inside the house of a man called Van der Beursse in Brugges, Belgium and started creating a market by exchanging information. I might be naive, but TUG can be that house. 
We are the largest community...if not us, then who?
TUG has a big headline on the landing page of "3 million of timeshare rentals and sales". That data being public to the TUG will help create a market overtime. Today there is no visibility of what buyers are willing to pay, and what sellers were willing to take, other than spot prices. TUG is no different than Craiglist on that - there is no institutional memory. 
Creating a data driven institutional memory is the first step towards a market.


----------



## aboonie (Nov 28, 2011)

Wonka said:


> First, my adult children cannot plan far enough in advance and wouldn't want the annual fee.  In addition, timeshares just aren't "adventuresome" enough for them.    I've offered the use to friends as well, and they aren't interested.  I suspect they've heard too many negatives about timeshares and I'm not interested in educating friends or having to convince them to use something that I've prepaid.  It just isn't worth effort.  I'd consider giving them to a charity, but I don't think many charities still accept them.  We used to have a TUG member that formed a charitable group of some kind....but, I don't remember her name and don't know if it's still an active charity, or not.  Giving them to a stranger that could afford to pay a little something, but would rather have them for "free" just doesn't sit well with me.  More deserving folks just couldn't afford the continuing maintenance fee.
> 
> As far as usage goes, there is potential liability in offering the usage of a week to an unknown individual.


 
I contacted "donate for a cause". They are supposedly an organization that sells timeshares and donate the proceeds to charity. First of all, they choose which time shares are worth taking. My timeshare was one of the "lucky" one that they were still taking. Then they told me that I had to pay closing costs, assessment and maintenance fees for the following year because they didn't know how long it would take to sale. The final tab was $2,000 to get rid of my timeshare. I was at a loss when I realized that I would actually have to pay in order to give something for free. I almost did it just because I was under the impression that I would need a lawyer to do all the paper work. Then I came across TUG and realized I could do it on my own. I sold my TS on Ebay for $455. I paid $179 for closing and I don't have to pay any more MF. I am a happy camper.  We have a saying in my family "the biggest wastes of money we've ever had was buying a TS and going on a crappy cruise" We all wish we could sell it for what we bought it for but that's not the case. So, cutting my losses is all I could do. TUG saved me from making another costly mistake.


----------



## Cary (Nov 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> The sales on TUG are just a tiny fraction of the resale market - not the determining factor.  You will find $1 timeshares on every timeshare website on the internet.  It is the state of the economy - it has nothing to do with what TUG is or is not doing.
> 
> Besides that, TUG probably has more BUYERS than sellers.  We are a group of people who like timesharing, so we are interested in good deals.  When someone wants to get out from under their timeshare that is selling EVERYWHERE for $1, and they find a buyer on TUG - everyone is a winner.
> 
> ...


My wife and I in January or February of 2011 were checking for timeshare re-sales and found one for Breezy Point, MN for $400. It was a prime spring/summer week touching Memorial week. The week is classified as a "Red" week. Since we were familiar with the resort and it's facilities we did not even negotiate. We called the timeshare owner, who at the time was in AZ, and agreed to purchase for the advertised price in the bargain section  of TUG. We concluded the deal by phone verbally and managed to use it this spring. Two bedroom sleep 8, log cabin, jacuzzi off the living room and on the golf course. The re-sale market is a bargain. We intend to use the unit in 2012 even though the resort is only 2.5 hours from our home. The maintenance fee is only $45 per month. This is our 3rd timeshare we have purchased on the re-sale market. This is a RCI resort. We did not wish to use the RCI point system. It's a straight deeded week we intend to use and not exchange. We love it.


----------



## d2r4s (Nov 28, 2011)

Tug is not the only place to find timeshares for a $1 and as such you are right, however since there is no alternative market people who want to unload are willing to do it for next to nothing or nothing.  

Time Sharing to Today claims to get sales at price more like a resale market, but that may be questionable.

Keep in mind if someone paid thousands and is now willing to take a $1.00 its a sizeable loss unless they can justify there use over time as receiving fair value.

I recently gave two weeks back to a developer and was happy as I felt that over  25 years I got fair value, plus credit of 16,900 for an upgrade on another time share which was more than I paid for it.


----------



## kwilson (Nov 28, 2011)

gpurtz said:


> I'd like to do business with the person who can be happy paying $25K for the same week his neighbor bought for $1.



My ex SIL once went to the mall to buy a specific pair of shoes. After looking at all the stores she went back to the most expensive store and bought them Why? You tell me.


----------



## Beefnot (Nov 29, 2011)

Wonka said:


> What I've said is I won't give the weeks away to anyone that can well afford to pay a little something but would prefer to get something for nothing.



And you would rather let it sit idle. Boy is that du--, ahem, principled.


----------



## ampaholic (Nov 29, 2011)

kwilson said:


> My ex SIL once went to the mall to buy a specific pair of shoes. After looking at all the stores she went back to the most expensive store and bought them Why? You tell me.



That's easy, because they were what she wanted.


----------



## persia (Nov 29, 2011)

It isn't as if the fact that most timeshares are worthless in terms of resale was created by TUG.  You have a huge supply and a far lower demand.  Add to that the fact that resale timeshares are often treated differently (look at Wyndham) and the week economy in North America and the EU.

A decade ago I paid US$1500 for my Wyndham resale points, that was a good deal back then, but today I'd be lucky to have the buyer pay the closing and transfer fees.  If you want to know what something is worth nowadays just go to Ebay.


----------



## vegasjoet (Nov 29, 2011)

*expert*



Royal Flush said:


> Hello!
> I am a new member of TUG, but not new to TUG nor am I new to the timeshare industry.
> I appreciate that TUG offers this forum and a marketplace, but it seems pointless when TUG is sending out newsletters to celebrate the sale of a
> timeshare for $1. I spent a lot of time writing to a person at TUG and this person refuses to see the sense in my points.
> ...



I have been buying and selling timeshares for 25 years. I have bought from auctions and private parties. I have never paid retail. why would you!


----------



## richardm (Nov 29, 2011)

*Be skeptical of all classified claims at this point!*



d2r4s said:


> Time Sharing to Today claims to get sales at price more like a resale market, but that may be questionable.



I'm a huge fan of Shep's magazine and I've been a subscriber for many years, but I'd caution people to be skeptical of claims from any classified section about higher than market prices. 

If anyone who is actually associated with Timesharing Today had made such a claim- I think they'd be hard pressed to provide any proof to support it. The secondary market is currently divided into two distinct groups- online sales and onsite sales. 

Shep may still have a demographic that focuses only on hard copy periodicals and isn't internet savvy- but that demographic is shrinking faster than the kid's holiday Shrinky Dinks in my oven!

To be successful now- you have to price at or below market (which means $1. for many timeshares) and advertise everywhere you can!


----------



## geekette (Nov 29, 2011)

Wonka said:


> First, my adult children cannot plan far enough in advance and wouldn't want the annual fee.  In addition, timeshares just aren't "adventuresome" enough for them.    I've offered the use to friends as well, and they aren't interested.  I suspect they've heard too many negatives about timeshares and I'm not interested in educating friends or having to convince them to use something that I've prepaid.  It just isn't worth effort.  I'd consider giving them to a charity, but I don't think many charities still accept them.  We used to have a TUG member that formed a charitable group of some kind....but, I don't remember her name and don't know if it's still an active charity, or not.  Giving them to a stranger that could afford to pay a little something, but would rather have them for "free" just doesn't sit well with me.  More deserving folks just couldn't afford the continuing maintenance fee.
> 
> As far as usage goes, there is potential liability in offering the usage of a week to an unknown individual.



Sounds like you made your choices.  I've made tons of rentals to strangers with nary a problem but I do understand your concern.


----------



## geekette (Nov 29, 2011)

So, Flush, if you are not new to Tug, why have we not heard of you before?  You can't have been here long if you think Tug is the cause of timeshares having no value.

I would be interested in hearing a bit more about your experiences with timeshares, as it would sure help in gaining perspective about your motivations for the dump n run.  Top of my mind is shill...


----------



## eal (Nov 29, 2011)

Well, the one and only post sure got a conversation going!


----------



## chriskre (Nov 29, 2011)

eal said:


> Well, the one and only post sure got a conversation going!



It doesn't take much to entertain us.


----------



## DeniseM (Dec 5, 2011)

Interestingly, Royal Flush hasn't come back to TUG, since posting on Nov. 24th...


----------

