# Cheapest Destination Clubs Reviewed



## Steamboat Bill (May 19, 2007)

I wanted to compare the CHEAPEST plans for the top Destination Clubs.

I calculated cost per night as: lost opportunity cost of the deposit @ 5% + annual dues + nightly fees (Private Escapes only) divided by the nights of use.

The only wildcard here is that Ultimate Resorts and BelleHavens MAY appreciate in value and thus the cost per night would be lower if you decided to exit the club. However, I consider this potential windfall a bonus (if you are lucky and they are still in business) as you have to spend the money NOW to use the property. Either way, you may want to attempt to come up with some valuation if you are interested in these two clubs.

Additionally, the homes are NOT all equal as Exclusive Resorts has the most expensive properties and High Country Club has the least expensive properties. You might also want to factor in average square footage of the properties as the more expensive clubs would also have larger homes.

The $333 per night cost for High Country Club should give you an indication why so many TUGers decided to join HCC rather than the other clubs. I believe at this cost, it is CHEAPER to join HCC than it is to buy a high end timeshare.

Either way….I feel that joining any of the following five destination clubs is a fantastic opportunity to participate in this new form of travel and I hope they ALL thrive in the future.

-------------------------------------------------

Exclusive Resorts Affiliate 15 nights
$225,000 Deposit (80% refundable)
$12,900 annual dues
No holiday use
Bills calculation = $1,610 per night

Ultimate Resorts Bronze 14 nights
$125,000 (80% of the current membership fee)
$10,000 annual dues
Holiday use EOY
Bills calculation = $1,160 per night

Private Escapes Premiere 15 nights
$105,000 (80% refundable)
$7,700 annual dues + $82 per night
Bills calculation = $945 per night

BelleHavens Traveler 15 nights
$100,000 (90% refundable current price)
$8,500 annual dues
No holiday use
Bills calculation = $900 per night

High Country Club Associate 15 nights
$30,000 (80% refundable)
$3,500 annual dues
No holiday use
Bills calculation = $333 per night


----------



## PerryM (May 19, 2007)

*A guaranteed $67,500 profit or rent per night?*

*I’m not sure that the cost per night means anything.*

Look at the Marriott timeshare owner, I can easily calculate the cost per night and compare it to a WorldMark – the WM wins every time.  Yet our Marriott owner has little desire for the WM units.  I can do the same with a Camry v BMW v Bentley.  There is a market for each.

If we want to compare DCs we need to simply do what the Helium Report does – just give the facts and leave the choice of what’s important to the user.  However, the Helium Report is just a sales outlet for all of them.  I just asked for their latest report and had to specify which DCs I wanted sales material from.

I think a better service we can offer is exactly what we are doing here – let prospective folks talk among themselves and let members tell us of their adventures with their DC.  The Helium Report just can't let that ever happen.

I personally want to learn more, stay attuned to what’s happening ,and be ready to pounce on an opportunity.  Take BelleHavens new structured price increase and their guaranteed profit  (I worry about the SEC on this one) – that’s eye opening to me.  Their doubling of resort offerings and a guaranteed profit of $67,500 (Adventurer membership increasing from $200k to $275k an you get 90% of that).

*Heck, I could join BelleHavens, use if for a minimum time, and then sell it and take the profits and buy a FREE HCC!  How about that scenario!*

Their Traveler membership is even more profitable - pay $100k and sell for $155k, a 55% return on your money and then apply the profits towards HCC.

I don’t know if we will buy, but my antenna is picking up favorable vibrations that would cause me to act now versus waiting for a “Throw Away” DC membership.

P.S.
I would encourage folks that own a DC to ask someone there to join this Forum and let us talk with the DC so others can benefit.  Why would a DC not join?

P.P.S.
A more realistic scenario has the BelleHavens owners staying FREE at their resorts.  The profit you make when you leave the DC pays for ALL the MFs during the ownership period.  FREE is better than any rental cost per night.


----------



## puffpuff (May 19, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I wanted to compare the CHEAPEST plans for the top Destination Clubs.
> 
> I calculated cost per night as: lost opportunity cost of the deposit @ 5% + annual dues + nightly fees (Private Escapes only) divided by the nights of use.
> 
> ...


Ultimate resort now throws in an extra four nights in the form of MAP points for the bornze memership from my recent discussion wth the salesperson. Its also on their website.


----------



## puffpuff (May 19, 2007)

PerryM said:


> *I’m not sure that the cost per night means anything.*
> 
> Look at the Marriott timeshare owner, I can easily calculate the cost per night and compare it to a WorldMark – the WM wins every time.  Yet our Marriott owner has little desire for the WM units.  I can do the same with a Camry v BMW v Bentley.  There is a market for each.
> 
> ...


I believe there is a holding period ( like two years mininum) before one can exit from the Bellehaven plan of "guarantee" appreciation ( that is if they can accomplish their membership goals and follow through with their promise).  I could be wrong.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 19, 2007)

I have to admit the BelleHavens model is looking better than ever, but the guaranteed future profits really bothers me and reminds me of so many stock, bond, hedge fund scams I see in South Florida.

So, lets compromise and say you could break even and the profit may offset your lost opportunity costs @ 5%.

Thus, you are still paying $8,500 per year for 15 nights = $566 per night. There is no getting around spending that amount every year.

Sure, if you sell for a profit in the future, BelleHavens may be the best bang for the DC buck there is. In fact, if anyone is considering buying a hotel-condo....forgetaboutit and simply join BelleHavens as this is a much smarter buy.

Either way, I still think HCC is the "safer" option as your initial buy-in costs and annual dues are the LOWEST in the DC industry.....in the event the industry implodes (highly unlikely), this is the least risky. Even thought BelleHavens will own all their properties, they are now taking on debit to expand and this is not 100% risk-free like their original plan.

I like PerryM car analogy as these clubs are DIFFERENT....a Merceded S550 is not the same as a Toyota Camrey.

As I said before, I like Exclusive Resorts the BEST....I just don't want to spend that amount of money on vacations.


----------



## PerryM (May 19, 2007)

*Why not use their numbers?*

Bill,
I respectfully disagree that we can’t use BelleHaven’s numbers to arrive at a cost free way of using DCs.  If we can’t use their numbers than what do we use?  This goes for the entire DC industry.

According to the same sources that espouse HCC, the salesreps, they just need to find 8 more members, after June 16, 2007, and you get $49,500 cash back on your $100k investment.  The MF is $8,500 and either you make a profit after 2 years of $55,000(90% of that) (at least) – $8,500 (We don’t have to use nor pay the MFs in the first year) that’s a profit of $41,000 or 41% return in 2 years.

To say that the numbers can’t be used is to assume more information than the DC provides.  This must then be used on ALL other DC’s – we don’t use the numbers they give but substitute our own?

So here is a way to take 2 weeks of vacation in 2 years, stay at $2 M condos and make 41% return on your money invested.

This is ONLY possible because BH uses a 100% ownership equity model.

And folks though turning lead into platinum was a good idea.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 19, 2007)

PerryM said:


> So here is a way to take 2 weeks of vacation in 2 years, stay at $2 M condos and make 41% return on your money invested.
> 
> This is ONLY possible because BH uses a 100% ownership equity model.



ok...I am starting to see the light here...I may contact BelleHavens next week to discuss this with them.

Perhaps I can use my HCC membership on Holidays (once per year) and use BelleHavens for Non-holidays.

The BelleHavens deal seems TOO GOOD to be true...but that is what I originally thought of HCC.

My initial thought on BelleHavens was that they only had 2 ski properties (the one in Deer Vally looks AWESOME!) and I was thinking of HCC vs BelleHavens...perhaps I need to think of these as complimenting each other and simply sell my Westgate Park City and Marriott Williamsburgh and pay off the Bellehavens membership.

Hmmmm....my wife will definately think I have lost it now....but this is really an "investment" (hee-hee).


----------



## vineyarder (May 19, 2007)

*Revised nightly numbers for Private Escapes*



> Exclusive Resorts Affiliate 15 nights
> $225,000 Deposit (80% refundable)
> $12,900 annual dues
> No holiday use
> ...



Bill - How did you come up with the denominator of 15 days usage?  Private escapes allows unlimited usage; you can have 28 days reserved at any time, but you can keep making and using reservations all the time; I'll probably end up using about 42 days this year, and as I understand it, the average PE members uses about 28 days per year (and I know some that are using 60+ nights per year).  If you use 28 days annual usage, PE Premiere (the least expensive club) comes out to $545 per night... and at my 42 night / yr level, the nightly rate would come out to $390 per night (although I actually belongto PE Platinum, rather than Premiere).  Plus you have full holiday use; this year I'm using Spring break, Thanksgiving and Xmas (Xmas and New Years are by lottery; the others are first come, first served).  Also, PE Platinum and Pinnacle clubs have appreciation dividends (if the real estate portfolio appreciates) that in the past few years have offset the annual dues by as much as 35%.  I joined early on, so my actual total nightly cost for the Platinum Club (including annual dues less appreciation credit, nightly fees, and 5% opportunity cost on deposit (which is still 100% refundable based on when I joined)) and 42 nights of use comes out to $484 per night, pretty darn reasonable when you consider that PE Platinum has homes in the $1.5 - $2M range...  I'd be happy to answer any questions y'all have about PE; I've been thrilled with my membership...


----------



## vineyarder (May 19, 2007)

*Bellehavens and "guaranteed" profits*

Hi Again - I looked into BelleHavens after reading the posts about the 'guaranteed profits'.  Sorry to say, but there isn't any guaranteed profits at all.  Let's say that you buy the lowest price membership, currently at $100,000.  In two years you can put yourself on a resignation list, and then you are bought out at at 90% of the then-current price, on a 3 in, 1 out basis.  Best case scenario is that they are at their PROJECTED price point of $155,000, and there are not many others on the waitlist, so you get out within a few months of requesting it, and you get back 90% of $155,000, or $139,500 (not the full $55,000 increase, as you get 90% of the increase plus 90% of your original deposit), a 39.5% profit (not 55%) in just over 2 years (or 19.75% per year, still not too shabby).  

On the other hand, there is *no guarantee *that the prices will increase to the projected level; these are just _projections_, not guarantees.  If, for instance, 30 of us on this forum buy in with the expectation of making $39,500 in 2 years, then we all ask to resign in 2 years, there will be at least 30 of us on the resignation list, so 90 new members will have to sign up before we all get our deposits back, which could take several years.  Plus with 30 of us looking to get bought out, prices could fall rather than rise.  Even if they do rise, the projections may not be met, so the price in 2 years could be, say $120,000, in which case we'd get back 90%, or $108,000; still a profit of $8000, but we might not get it for 3 years (instead of 2) or even more, so a more conservative estimate is a ROI of 8% in 3 years, or 2.7% per year... Of course, during these 3 years, we'd have paid $25,500 in annual dues.  For this, we'd have been entitled to 15 nights a year, but only 7 nights per year can be reserved more than 60 days in advance, and no holiday usage, so depending how they define holidays, it might be too restictive to really get in those 15 nights...

So unfortunately it looks too good to be true...


----------



## BocaBum99 (May 19, 2007)

Only timeshare people people spin a guaranteed 10% loss as a guaranteed profit.


----------



## PerryM (May 19, 2007)

*facts and fables...*



vineyarder said:


> <snip>
> Sorry to say, but there isn't any guaranteed profits at all.
> <snip>
> 
> ...



BelleHavens has put this guarantee in writing, it’s at: http://www.bellehavens.com/me_options.php

These are bona fide price increases scheduled based upon the stated memberships sold – I don’t think BH is joking about these price increases. 

You can get 90% of the current membership fee after 2 years of membership.  You do have to wait for 3 new members to join before you can get out.

Those are stated facts.  If we now wish to add best case and worst case scenarios on top of those facts then we are just playing a guessing game.  Best case: 3 members sign up in 5 days.  Worst Case: the DC industry goes belly up and no one is foolish enough to buy in thus resulting in years going by.  (Some DCs have a rule that they MUST buy back the membership after 1 year, if memory serves me correct.  I don't know if BH has this clause).  If certain guidelines are missed then the entire BH DC would be liquidated and monies pro-rated to the owners - according to their sales literature.

BH has stated, in writing, that they are going to switch from $2 M condos to $2.75 M in that time frame and since the memberships are based upon that condo price the resulting fees must increase.

Do I trust or believe everything BH says - no.  I need to see the actual paperwork but that requires a $3k deposit; I'm not there yet.

BB:
I don’t know if we can say that there is a guaranteed 10% loss on the investment.  The memberships must be held 2 years and the US national real estate average is 5% right now.  This should result in a minimum break even and if we believe the black and white writings of BH a guaranteed profit of $39,500 less MFs (on the $100k minimum membership fee).

Marriott owners can be assured of a 40% instant loss but holding it 5 years will just about have them breaking even.


----------



## vineyarder (May 19, 2007)

*BelleHavens guarantee*



> BelleHavens has put this guarantee in writing, it’s at: http://www.bellehavens.com/me_options.php
> 
> These are bona fide price increases scheduled based upon the stated memberships sold – I don’t think BH is joking about these price increases.



Maybe you have seen something else in writing, but the page on the website you linked to clearly states *"The chart below maps our projected membership deposit increases. Annual dues are also expected to increase."*  The website also states *"All prices in chart are subject to change.* Information current as of 5/14/2007. The opportunity to become a member of the Club does not constitute an offering of securities under state or federal law. Memberships are being offered exclusively for the purpose of providing members with access to homes and properties owned by the Club for personal use and certain travel credits."  If they are willing to promise in writing those price increases will occur as projected, then it is a totally different situation, and I'll look seriously into joining!  Have they put that guarantee in writing in their membership documents or in any other binding form?


----------



## PerryM (May 20, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Maybe you have seen something else in writing, but the page on the website you linked to clearly states *"The chart below maps our projected membership deposit increases. Annual dues are also expected to increase."*  The website also states *"All prices in chart are subject to change.* Information current as of 5/14/2007. The opportunity to become a member of the Club does not constitute an offering of securities under state or federal law. Memberships are being offered exclusively for the purpose of providing members with access to homes and properties owned by the Club for personal use and certain travel credits."  If they are willing to promise in writing those price increases will occur as projected, then it is a totally different situation, and I'll look seriously into joining!  Have they put that guarantee in writing in their membership documents or in any other binding form?



The written literature BH sent me, about 2 pounds of it, makes no mention of any doubt but a price increase WILL occur - they are not kidding from what I read.  They are, however, based upon sales of 8 memberships - since they have sold more than 8 already I see no reason why they should not especially since they are doubling the locations.

But, heck, salesreps are salesreps, and the I can only use past performance to estimate that finding 8 new members is as easy for them as for anyother DC.  I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.


----------



## puffpuff (May 20, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Bill - How did you come up with the denominator of 15 days usage?  Private escapes allows unlimited usage; you can have 28 days reserved at any time, but you can keep making and using reservations all the time; I'll probably end up using about 42 days this year, and as I understand it, the average PE members uses about 28 days per year (and I know some that are using 60+ nights per year).  If you use 28 days annual usage, PE Premiere (the least expensive club) comes out to $545 per night... and at my 42 night / yr level, the nightly rate would come out to $390 per night (although I actually belongto PE Platinum, rather than Premiere).  Plus you have full holiday use; this year I'm using Spring break, Thanksgiving and Xmas (Xmas and New Years are by lottery; the others are first come, first served).  Also, PE Platinum and Pinnacle clubs have appreciation dividends (if the real estate portfolio appreciates) that in the past few years have offset the annual dues by as much as 35%.  I joined early on, so my actual total nightly cost for the Platinum Club (including annual dues less appreciation credit, nightly fees, and 5% opportunity cost on deposit (which is still 100% refundable based on when I joined)) and 42 nights of use comes out to $484 per night, pretty darn reasonable when you consider that PE Platinum has homes in the $1.5 - $2M range...  I'd be happy to answer any questions y'all have about PE; I've been thrilled with my membership...


How do you compare PE Platinum with Ultimate Resports? and PE Premiere vs HCC.


----------



## vineyarder (May 20, 2007)

*How do you compare PE Platinum with Ultimate Resorts and PE Premiere vs HCC?*



> How do you compare PE Platinum with Ultimate Resorts? and PE Premiere vs HCC.



Glad to help, though I need to preface my comments with the disclaimer that while I am very familiar with PE and how it works, my knowledge of Ultimate and HCC are much more superficial.  When I was doing due diligence before joining PE, Ultimate resorts didn’t exist yet (at least under that name), and HCC only had about 3 – 4 homes, and their website made it sound like it was basically a ski destination club.  Obviously either my impression was wrong, or they changed their focus, since HCC obviously now has a very well-rounded portfolio of homes.

*Starting with PE Platinum vs. Ultimate Resorts:*

Homes:  Ultimate has homes averaging $2M, with 3000 sq ft. and 3 – 5 bedrooms in resorts and 800 – 1600 sq ft with 1 – 2 bedrooms in cities; PE Platinum has homes averaging $1.6M with 3000 – 4000 sq ft and 3 – 5 bedrooms in resorts and 1000 – 2000 sq ft and 1 – 3 bedrooms in cities.  Looking over the photos, the fit and finish and furnishing seem very similar.

Locations:  Similar numbers and pretty equally attractive listings, with considerable overlap (Abaco, Jackson Hole, Kiawah, New York, La Quinta, Cabos, Miami, Orlando, Telluride).  Several locations are even in the same development (Ritz Carlton Resort on Abaco, Trump Tower in NYC).  PE Platinum has the advantage of reciprocity with the other two clubs with PE, significantly increasing choice.

Services:  Pretty identical; concierge services to plan out all aspects of your vacation, stock groceries, meet & greet, etc.

Costs:  Current pricing on PE Platinum is $200K deposit (80% refundable), $11,500 annual dues, unlimited nightly usage at $138/nt., 28 days in reservation system at a time; total cost per night at 28 days = $905, at 42 days = $650/nt, at 60 days = $496/nt.  Ultimate has numerous plans; current comparable pricing is $200K deposit with 28 nights per year, $17,000 annual dues = $964/nt; or $215,000 deposit with $22,000 annual dues for 42 nights, = $780/nt.

Deposit Refund:  PE Platinum is now 80% refundable (used to be 100%); Ultimate is 80% of then current price; presumably higher, but could be lower.

Reservations:  Ultimate has a minimum of 3 night stay, max of 7 nights per reservation; reservations can be made up to 2 years in advance, with max of 3 – 4 in system (depending upon plan), with 1 holiday reservation allowed (holidays = Xmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, Spring Break, Presidents Day, July 4th).  PE has a minimum of 1 night and max of 14 nights, up to 28 days reserved in system at once, no limit on how far out a reservation can be made.  Only holiday restrictions are Xmas and New Years weeks.

Unaccompanied extended family: Included at no extra charge with Ultimate, requires a special upcharge with PE (necessary since usage is unlimited).

*Bottom Line: Overall quite comparable, with homes, locations, and services essentially a tie; PE can be significantly lower cost if you use it more than 42 nights/yr, and PE has a much more flexible reservation system/policy (1 – 14 night stay, much less holiday restrictions, etc.).  Ultimate allows you to potentially profit on the sale of your membership (though you could also end up with less if prices drop), and Ultimate allows unaccompanied family members to use the properties without an upcharge.  For me, the much more flexible reservation system with PE is a huge advantage, as is the unlimited usage, with a nightly fee, so you don’t have to select how many days you’ll use when you join; if you use more, you pay more (but your cost per night decreases).*

*PE Premiere vs. HCC*

Homes:  HCC has homes averaging $850K, with 1000 - 3000 sq ft. and 2 - 4 bedrooms; PE Premiere also has homes averaging $850K, with 1000 – 3000 sq ft and 2 – 4 bedrooms in resorts.  Looking over the photos, the fit and finish and furnishings seem pretty similar.

Locations:  Similar numbers and pretty equally attractive listings, with considerable overlap (Beaver Creek, Cabo, La Costa, La Quinta, New York City, Outer Banks, Puerta Vallarta, Rosemary Beach, Tuscany, Steamboat Springs, Stowe, Turks & Caicos, Waikoloa).  Several locations are even in the same development (1600 Broadway in NYC, Beaver Creek, La Costa, La Quinta).  PE Premiere has the advantage of reciprocity with the other two clubs with PE (albeit at a higher nightly fee), significantly increasing choice, and allowing members to stay 1 week a year in either a $1.6M - $2M property (Platinum) or a $3.5 - $4M property (Pinnacle).

Services:  Both have concierge services to plan out all aspects of your vacation; PE Premiere will stock groceries, meet & greet, etc; I’m not sure about HCC.

Costs:  Current pricing on PE Premiere is $105K deposit (80% refundable), $7700 annual dues, unlimited nightly usage at $82/nt., 28 days in reservation system at a time; total cost per night at 28 days = $545, at 42 days = $390/nt, at 60 days = $298/nt.  HCC has numerous plans; current pricing on the most comparable plan is $60K deposit with 45 nights per year, $8500 annual dues, no nightly fee = $255/nt.  HCC’s least expensive plan is only $30K deposit with $3500 annual fees for 15 days usage, or $333/nt.

Deposit Refund:  Both are now 80% refundable.

Reservations:  With the “HCC Private Plan”, members can make 2 reservations up to a year in advance, plus 1 holiday reservation.  All reservations more than 60 days in advance are for 7 nights.  A minimum of 4 nights per stay can be booked within 60 days.  Couldn’t find info on what HCC classifies as holidays.  PE has a minimum of 1 night and max of 14 nights, up to 28 days reserved in system at once, no limit on how far out a reservation can be made.  Only holiday restrictions are Xmas and New Years weeks.

Unaccompanied extended family: Included at no extra charge for 7 nights per year with HCC’s top plan, otherwise member must be present.  Requires a special upcharge with PE, or a corporate/extended membership.

*Bottom Line: Both great clubs.  HCC has an incredible entry point, with their least expensive plan costing only $30K deposit plus $3500 per year for 15 nights.  Nothing else in the industry can come close to that, so they are alone in that sector, and can even compete very effectively with high-end timeshares.  For someone with limited vacation time, HCC’s Associate membership is a phenomenal deal.  For someone with significantly more vacation time, either is a great choice, with similar homes in similar locations; in my analysis it comes down to price vs. flexibility.  PE Premiere has a much more flexible reservation system/policy (1 – 14 night stay, few holiday restrictions, up to 28 days reserved as far in advance as you want, etc.), but HCC is less expensive (overall cost with 45 nights usage = $255 with HCC, $370 with PE).*


----------



## travelguy (May 20, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Services:  Pretty identical; concierge services to plan out all aspects of your vacation, stock groceries, meet & greet, etc.



High Country Club will do the grocery stocking also and has on-site concierge at some locations with local contacts at all locations.


----------



## puffpuff (May 20, 2007)

your analysis hit it right on the nail. Thanks. 
Does the reciprocity works well in the PE system, or you mainly end up with low season due to their rules and regulations. 
PE does not seem to be adding locations lately. Is that right or wrong? Is their membership sales slowing donw due to HCC?


----------



## vineyarder (May 20, 2007)

> Does the reciprocity works well in the PE system, or you mainly end up with low season due to their rules and regulations.



Reciprocity isn't allowed at Xmas or New Years, but otherwise availability has been very good.  I'm in Platinum (the middle club), so I can trade 'down' to take advantage of additional destinations, or 'up' to get a bigger home; from Premiere, you have 2 levels that you can go up to bigger houses.  It also allows you to book two houses in one location at the same time, i.e. for a family reunion.



> PE does not seem to be adding locations lately. Is that right or wrong? Is their membership sales slowing donw due to HCC?



Surprisingly, they are not very good at keeping their public website up-to-date, so there is sometimes a long lag time.  Also, they have been making committments at some projects that are still a year away from opening, so that isn't showing up.  Latly, they have also been adding depth at current locations, which also doesn't show up on the public website.  In terms of activity the past 5 months, they have added 4 more homes in Abaco (2 Premiere, 1 Platinum, 1 Pinnacle), 3 homes in Watercolor, FL (1 in each club), 3 homes in Orlando (1 in each club), another NYC property, another Tucsany property, and entered a contract for 3 more in the Dominican Republic (at Cap Cana).  New memberships have been running 50% above goals, but I'm not sure if they lowered their 'goals' after the T&H debacle.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 20, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Bill - How did you come up with the denominator of 15 days usage?  Private escapes allows unlimited usage; you can have 28 days reserved at any time, but you can keep making and using reservations all the time; I'll probably end up using about 42 days this year, and as I understand it, the average PE members uses about 28 days per year (and I know some that are using 60+ nights per year).  If you use 28 days annual usage, PE Premiere (the least expensive club) comes out to $545 per night... and at my 42 night / yr level, the nightly rate would come out to $390 per night (although I actually belongto PE Platinum, rather than Premiere).



My purpose with this thread is to identify the "lowest cost" Destination clubs. I wanted to limit the comparisons to the "introductory membership plans" and most of them are 14-15 day use. I could have started a thread using 30 or 45 or 60 days, but I don't think many people travel that much....and I still have kids in school. Thus, a two week destination club option seemed like a good starting point for me.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 20, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> I'd be happy to answer any questions y'all have about PE; I've been thrilled with my membership...



Do you know anything about the: Private Escapes Preview membership?

Pay a one–time, fully refundable membership deposit that allows you to enjoy vacations for 14 nights per year.


----------



## vineyarder (May 20, 2007)

*Private Escape's $50K Club*



> My purpose with this thread is to identify the "lowest cost" Destination clubs. I wanted to limit the comparisons to the "introductory membership plans" and most of them are 14-15 day use.





> Do you know anything about the: Private Escapes Preview membership?



Yes, Given your purpose of comparing low-cost options, I was just going to suggest that the 'preview' membership would be a better comparison if you are comparing based on 14 - 15 nts/yr.  The Premiere Preview deposit is $50,000 (100% refundable!), with annual dues of $4600, and a nightly fee of $82 (but no Xmas or New Years usage).  So based on these numbers, PE Premiere Preview comes in at $589 per night; well below all the others besides HCC.

BTW, I also still have school-age kids, which is part of why I love the DC experience; every time that they're out of school, we're off somewhere; we average 14 - 16 weeks of travel per year!


----------



## Steamboat Bill (May 21, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> The Premiere Preview deposit is $50,000 (100% refundable!), with annual dues of $4600, and a nightly fee of $82 (but no Xmas or New Years usage).  So based on these numbers, PE Premiere Preview comes in at $589 per night; well below all the others besides HCC.



This sounds very interesting and this membership plan seems to be flying under the radar...and 100% return of membership fees is awesome. I need to check this out more.

Can you still book the 80 foot yacht with this membership? are there any other fees with the boat?


----------



## JimIg23 (May 21, 2007)

I have been reading up on HCC (and the others, but 30k/15night is more my speed). On the face, they sound wonderful.  I have been looking for a Marriott and maybe a smaller TS plan, but something like HCC would be great.  

There is a lot of discussion of 80% back (either on current or buy in price) in these programs.  Has there been other travel programs like these in the past that have gone bust?  It would seem the clubs’ institutional investors would share in liquidated assets first and the members would lose their initial capital.  

My other concern is sheer costs of running the programs compared income (buy in and yearly income obtained).  Has anyone looked at any of the programs’ audits or financials?  Are they running a profit?


----------



## caribbeansun (May 21, 2007)

Yup - the first and what was the largest at the time went bankrupt.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06215/710243-37.stm has a story and if you google Tanner & Haley Resorts you'll find more.

As to your profit question - most filter off the majorit of profits through a manangement company as well as shaving a healthy piece off at the front end on the acquisition of the properties.  Because they are done through management companies it's unlikely that you'll see those profits disclosed anywhere.


----------



## travelguy (May 21, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> Yup - the first and what was the largest at the time went bankrupt.
> 
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06215/710243-37.stm has a story and if you google Tanner & Haley Resorts you'll find more.



This has been discussed at length on this forum previously.  The T&H Destination Club was a very different business model than the biz model of DCs like High Country Club, Private Escapes, etc.  The simplified analysis of why T&H failed is because they promised unlimited use of properties and leased a large portion of their properties.  This is not the way High Country Club and most of the other DCs have ever done business.



> As to your profit question - most filter off the majorit of profits through a manangement company as well as shaving a healthy piece off at the front end on the acquisition of the properties.  Because they are done through management companies it's unlikely that you'll see those profits disclosed anywhere.



Actually, High Country Club fully discloses these costs to members (and profits to the Management company).  On a percentage basis, these costs are much lower than the typical Timeshare Development costs and management costs.  When you compare the High Country Club acquisition and management costs to those of the higher end timeshare programs (Marriott, Hilton, etc.) they seem like a bargain.  Additionally, the member annual fees do not increase!  The new members pay higher fees instead.


----------



## vineyarder (May 21, 2007)

> The simplified analysis of why T&H failed is because they promised unlimited use of properties and leased a large portion of their properties. This is not the way High Country Club and most of the other DCs have ever done business.



T&H also guaranteed availability; if you wanted cabo for Xmas and it was booked, they'd rent a comparable home for you!  My understanding is that the CEO of Private Escapes left T&H several years before the crash & burn because his protests about the problems with the business model (leases, guarantees, etc.) were falling on deaf ears...


----------



## caribbeansun (May 22, 2007)

Oh, that's news to me - is this publicly posted somewhere?



travelguy said:


> Actually, High Country Club fully discloses these costs to members (and profits to the Management company).


----------



## travelguy (May 22, 2007)

*High Country Club Financial Information*



caribbeansun said:


> Oh, that's news to me - is this publicly posted somewhere?



All this information is available to High Country Club members.  They may ask for a NDA to be signed (I don't remember what information they asked for this to be signed).  You have an opportunity to become an investor in High County Club as a member in order to participate in the property equity appreciation and management profits.  As a result, all pertinent financial information, audits and projections are available.

However, before I became a member and was in discussions with High Country Club, I talked at length to the CFO (Dan).  He was very forthcoming on the structure and expenses of both management and property purchase costs.

I don't believe you will see any of this information "publicly posted" due to the intense industry competition of this newly developing industry.  There are still several variations of the biz model that are competing with each other.  That said, the DCA members have all recently been audited and have public information on the asset ratios needed for fully refundable member deposits at minimum.

High Country Club has MUCH more financial information available to the general public, members and investors than any other timeshare, fractional or condotel that I've ever dealt with.  When was the last time you saw the financial statement and talked to the CFO of a timeshare developer??


----------



## m61376 (May 22, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Additionally, the member annual fees do not increase!  The new members pay higher fees instead.


I thought they have the right to increase the annual fees. Is there a plan where the fees now are locked in?


----------



## Bourne (May 22, 2007)

The percentage of increase for existing members is locked. 

However, they can choose to increase the dues for new members that are signing up.


----------



## saluki (Jun 5, 2007)

Bourne said:


> The percentage of increase for existing members is locked.
> 
> However, they can choose to increase the dues for new members that are signing up.



Can someone please elaborate on the HCC annual fee policy? Specifically in regards to the policy in force for those joining this summer under the "TUG deal".


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Jun 5, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I have to admit the BelleHavens model is looking better than ever, but the guaranteed future profits really bothers me and reminds me of so many stock, bond, hedge fund scams I see in South Florida.
> 
> So, lets compromise and say you could break even and the profit may offset your lost opportunity costs @ 5%.
> 
> ...


Bill,

Bellehavens doesn't take on any debt.  The 'bellehavens club' is 100% debt free that is 100% owned by the members of the club.  Banyan development owns some of the homes and 'prebuys' and lets the club use them.  Banyan has debt on some of the homes until they sell them to the 'bellehavens club' and then they are debt free again.


----------



## travelguy (Jun 5, 2007)

saluki said:


> Can someone please elaborate on the HCC annual fee policy? Specifically in regards to the policy in force for those joining this summer under the "TUG deal".



The Annual dues for the TUG Special Deal for High Country Club are $1,750.

Member annual dues increases are locked-in to a maximum of C.P.I. plus 2% in the membership contracts.  The reality is that High Country Club has not raised the annual dues to date and only intend minimal increases every few years.  This elimination of pesky and expensive yearly dues increases is possible because new members pay annual dues in ratio to their higher initial membership fee.  These higher annual dues of new members offset the continued lower annual dues of earlier members.  This rewards the members that joined High Country Club at an earlier period in the risk/reward curve while still allowing new members to have annual dues in ratio to their membership fees.


----------



## capjak (Jun 5, 2007)

What was the introduction price and subsequent increases for HCC?  What were the initial fees?


----------



## saluki (Jun 5, 2007)

travelguy said:


> The Annual dues for the TUG Special Deal for High Country Club are $1,750.
> 
> Member annual dues increases are locked-in to a maximum of C.P.I. plus 2% in the membership contracts.  The reality is that High Country Club has not raised the annual dues to date and only intend minimal increases every few years.  This elimination of pesky and expensive yearly dues increases is possible because new members pay annual dues in ratio to their higher initial membership fee.  These higher annual dues of new members offset the continued lower annual dues of earlier members.  This rewards the members that joined High Country Club at an earlier period in the risk/reward curve while still allowing new members to have annual dues in ratio to their membership fees.



That sounds reasonable. I also read one of Steamboat Bill's posts that states that the HCC contract stipulates there will be no assessments. This is quite intriguing...time for a discussion with the wife!


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Jun 6, 2007)

saluki said:


> Can someone please elaborate on the HCC annual fee policy? Specifically in regards to the policy in force for those joining this summer under the "TUG deal".



The TUG HCC special is only a one year "trial" membership. Thus, you pay for 2007-2008 dues at the same time as you submit your 100% refundable deposit.

If you upgrade, you are under the same rules as the rest of us. I have had numerous discussions with HCC about the annual dues and once you lock it in, the increases will be minimal (in fact it will be less than the Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Disney timeshares yearly increases).

Also, members do not pay assessments because we don't actually OWN the properties. This is a right to use club.


----------

