# Maintenance Fee History For Wyndham Resorts



## Goofyhobbie (Jul 21, 2009)

Folks who are looking to buy one or more Wyndham Points contracts on E-Bay or elsewhere should look before they leap. 

For those who would like to know how the maintenance for the  points being purchased would fit in one's portifolio consider the work of and thank Scott Bitterman and Tim Podley at Wyndham Resorts Forums:

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=6823 

Some TUGGERS when talking Wyndham Points and where to acquire them recommend LOCATION when a specific season is important to the Buyer. Examples include Alexandria and Myrtle Beach, SC

(With Location the Buyer is usually concerned about ARP and it's value to the Buyer to get the desired vacation each year at their home resort.)

The general consensus of most TUGGERS, however, is the concept of "Points are Points" and the two most important considerations are the "SUNK COST" (upfront costs) and the on-going maintenance fee history.

For those wanting this sought after information consider this Good News:  Someone has thought of that and created a spreadsheet with historical data provided by owners. Thanks go to Glenn Benscoter and Angel England at Wyndham Resorts Forums. 

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=5890


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## Talent312 (Jul 21, 2009)

Poaching?  I dunno if this is well-intentioned or not, but it strikes me as thinly camouflaged attempt to troll TUG for the "phpBB" forum.


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 22, 2009)

Talent,

I assure you my intention was NOT to violate any rule of TUG. 

Other than being a Weeks owner at a Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) resort with current experience buying into the POINTS concept I have no allegience to the forum that you are referring to.  

TUG is a community where folks come for information. Usually, it has been my experience that the information needed can be found here if the subject of interest involves the benefits and responsibilities of Timeshare. 

If you think I am poaching (whatever you mean by that word) I beg to disagree. I recently went through the time consuming process of research and study required to make my first POINTS purchase. Between June 6th and June 10th I purchased four Wyndham contracts totaling 469,000 points from an E-Bay seller. So I feel I have something to share experience wise.

I did my research and feel that I made an informed decision based on specific help from various TUGGERS, one of which specificily pointed me to the forum that has the spreadsheet mentioned above.

My only intention was to "pay it forward."  I am sure their are others who will come here first as I did and be looking specificily for information related to the title of this thread. That is why I titled it Maintenance Fee History For Wyndham Resorts. My thinking was if a person went to the TUG Buying, Selling, and Renting Forum to investigate options before he or she made a purchase such information would be of help if and only if they were interested in Wyndham. 

The posting also serves the purpose of getting potential buyers to think about the on-going cost associated with timeshares in general. I personally think that a view of maintenance fee history over time is a great way to get a feel for the future.   

You of course are entitled to your opinion regarding my motives; but since the accusation was directed specificly at yours truly I felt a response was necessary.


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## urple2 (Jul 22, 2009)

Awesome calculator. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I missed that post over on the Wyndham board.


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## bookworm (Jul 22, 2009)

Very helpful. I used it a few years ago on the Yahoo forum when I was making a purchase. I haven't looked at it since but want to do that. I'm curious to see which are the resorts with the most stable MFs in the last few years.


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## Carol C (Jul 22, 2009)

Thank you so much for posting. I bought Wyn pts (364K) resale combining a few contracts. The fact is, I'm still very much a newbie on pts systems. So your info and posting is very much appreciated.  

P.S. Don't know what the naysayer meant by "poaching". I haven't heard that term related to timeshares before.


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## carl2591 (Aug 3, 2009)

we used to "poach" all the time in Myrtle Beach.. This was during the early 80's when I was in OPC (off property contact) business for a couple of timeshare resorts in MB.  We had locations at various places in MB like restaurants, pancake house, tourist attractions and t-shirt sale places on the strip.. 

the places we were pitching were: Beach House Golf and Racquet Club, Maritime Resort and The Links. 

The other resorts like Schooner, Yachtsman and Rip Tide beach club were also doing OPC work some time next to us or just down the street.. If we saw a couple at their place talking we made sure to approach them if they (the ups) come our way..  

We know what each resort was offering and we would up the antie.. if they were giving $50 cash we would offer $75. But in order for them to get the money they had to give us the other resorts Invitation card and take ours.. 

So yes "Poaching" is a term use in timeshare... just not in the context portrayed above.. 

I too am looking at wyndham points and have many questions many of which are not easy to answer it seems.  Everyone uses acronyms and not explaining what they mean.. 

Like APR, PDA?, or POA,  UDI and other I see when looking at wyndham points info..

have good day


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## VacationDiva (Aug 3, 2009)

*Finding Maintence Fee info not included in the calculator*

Hello Everybody!

I am a real newbie to the whole timeshare world. I am still in the research stage of my development and have gotten my toes wet by purchasing a Discovery VIP package. I have gathered that one of the most important aspects of the economics of owning Wyndham points (after, of course, never buying retail  ) is to choose a 'home' resort with low maintenance fees. 

Having gained this fundamental insight from reading this bulletin board, I want to thank Goofyhobbie for posting the link to the maintenance fee calculator and thanks to so many others who have shared their experience and lessons learned--it has really helped me become much more savvy. 

I have an observation and a question. In reviewing the MF calculator, I noticed that it does not include all of the Wyndham resorts. I am wondering how to find out what the maintenance fees are for other Wyndham properties that are not listed? Specifically, I am currently interested in Fairfield Bay Resort in Arkansas. Any ideas on how to get this information?

Thanks loads,

Kristin

Wyndham Discovery VIP member 2009


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## Jya-Ning (Aug 3, 2009)

VacationDiva said:


> I have an observation and a question. In reviewing the MF calculator, I noticed that it does not include all of the Wyndham resorts. I am wondering how to find out what the maintenance fees are for other Wyndham properties that are not listed? Specifically, I am currently interested in Fairfield Bay Resort in Arkansas. Any ideas on how to get this information?
> 
> Thanks loads,
> 
> ...



It should include all the resorts.

Bay is fix week.  Try the lower part of the Excel spreadsheet.

Jya-Ning


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## Jya-Ning (Aug 3, 2009)

carl2591 said:


> Like APR, PDA?, or POA,  UDI and other I see when looking at wyndham points info..
> 
> have good day



There should have a list in the forums.

Just in case you can not find it, you can read the "Prime" there.

ARP is right to make a reservation at the resort your deed is based on or allowed at 13 month to 11 month before the inventory open to all other owner.  If you are looking for certain holiday travel, or school vacation time at certain area, sometimes, it is very important because you may not be able to get it if you don't own it.  But most of the time, there will be enough left at 10 month period, because point owner mostly like flexible, and not commit that early.

POA is property owner association like HOA.

UDI is undivided interest.  You and other owns a set of units together.  Like  you own a company's stock.   You own certain % of it.  There is no assign of specific time and/or unit.

Where did you see PDA?

Jya-Ning


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## VacationDiva (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks, Jya-Ning. 

I checked the fixed week portion of the spread spread sheet, but I do not think this resort is listed. Also, the Fairfield Bay resort is listed as a Club Wyndham Plus Resort that is included in my Discovery VIP package. I do not believe that this is a fixed week resort. Any other thoughts?

Thanks for your advice. Kristin


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## ausman (Aug 3, 2009)

In the calculator, the resort is not listed as Fairfield Bay. Rather the individual associations are, there are about seven of them the first being Bay- Mountain Meadows - ALL.

As for many resorts there have been many stages of development and as such a range of MF's.

This kind of thing as opposed to the all encompassing Wyndham branding is one of the most difficult things for new/prospective owners to understand.


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## VacationDiva (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks, Basham, for your insights. 

And you are correct--I am apparently not getting something fundamental about this. I am still confused on how to take the information provided in the MF calculator and translate it into information I can use to make head-to-head comparisons of maintenance fees between the properties as listed by Wyndham and other sellers. How do I translate this to make it more useful for this situation? Am I asking the right questions?

Thanks again for your thoughts and advice.

Kristin


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## Jya-Ning (Aug 4, 2009)

VacationDiva said:


> Thanks, Basham, for your insights.
> 
> And you are correct--I am apparently not getting something fundamental about this. I am still confused on how to take the information provided in the MF calculator and translate it into information I can use to make head-to-head comparisons of maintenance fees between the properties as listed by Wyndham and other sellers. How do I translate this to make it more useful for this situation? Am I asking the right questions?
> 
> ...



You probably want to start at history part first which is the 2nd link.  Wyndham start  as week system, then develop the point system.  So you will see resort with all week. resort mix with week and UDI, and resort with all UDI.  

Week usually maintain as a set.  A big community could developed differently over several years, and set up different association.  And if resort has both week and point, they usually have their own association.

Week budget is total budget divide by 52.  UDI is total budget divided by total point.

Than you need to add club due.

If you know where you are purchase, than you can use the calculator to check if the number right or O.K. to you.

Jya-Ning


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## VacationDiva (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks, Jya-Ning. I understand now what you are talking about now after reviewing the historical MF chart. 

I really appreciate your and Basham's patience and willingness to help a newbie like me learn the ropes. Your help and advice have proven to be very helpful!

Best regards,

Kristin


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## Goofyhobbie (Aug 4, 2009)

*Welcome*

VacationDiva,

Welcome to TUG. As you have already figured out, when you buy definitely buy RE-SALE.  The TUG Classifieds is a good place to start.

If you decide to go with a broker or a Seller on E-Bay look at the TUG rating
provided for many companies at the new TUG POLL site listed as a sub-forum under Buying, Selling, and Renting. A direct link is provided below:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56

Consider carefully who you choose to do business with. Price is not everything although it is definitely at the top of most prospective buyer's list.

You are smack dab in the middle of a MAJOR BUYER'S MARKET so take your time.  Once you have identified a couple of possible ways to purchase and companies to deal with look for mention of the company in the Link above and then read what TUGGERS have said about the companies in the Threads provided below the company name.  There is lots of good information here on TUG and an awful lot that you cannot see until you become a member which I highly recommend.


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## VacationDiva (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks, Dave, for the warm welcome and the additional advice! 

I have and will definitely continue to learn from the experience and advice from you and others here. I already feel like I am so far ahead of where I was even a few days ago. 

Thanks again,

Kristin


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## ausman (Aug 4, 2009)

VacationDiva said:


> I am still confused on how to take the information provided in the MF calculator and translate it into information I can use to make head-to-head comparisons of maintenance fees between the properties as listed by Wyndham and other sellers. How do I translate this to make it more useful for this situation?



The way i would approach it is to decide if I'm interestered in a resort that may need ARP. If so then perhaps keep with Wyndham or go some other route.

Most places do not require ARP and according to Wyndham figures, which we all believe in all circumstances, only about 4% of owners or perhaps I'm not remembering properly and it is 4% of reservations, or 4% of the stars in the Galaxy, utilise it.

Most people then subscribe to the points are points viewpoint and look for the lowest cost for points. 

The way to do that is to compare the acquision cost plus the MF to each for each 1,000 (per K) points purchased.

For example:

Expected Cost to acquire $800 ( $500 closing and resort transfer fee and purchase price of $300) for 154K points and MF of $700.

We used to take ten years to amortise the acquistion cost thinking we would hold it at least that long. So for that, the math is 800/10 = 80 +700 MF = 780/154K points = $5.06 per K.

Would evaluate all offers on that basis, lower is better.


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## VacationDiva (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks, Basham, for elaborating further on your original comments. Having a formula like you provide is very useful for comparing the cost of owning particular resorts. I like the idea of amortizing costs over time, as well. This had occurred to me in the abstract, but you laid it out very cogently, succinctly and in a way I can use. 

Wyndham is the one system that I have any real knowledge of and I like that it has very nice properties, is so extensive, and is part of RCI (or RCI is part of Wyndham--I am not sure which is correct). Do you have any suggestions for timeshare systems I should consider in addition that have some of these same features? 

Best regards,

Kristin


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## Goofyhobbie (Aug 5, 2009)

Vacationdivia,

I have been a Fairfield now Wyndham property owner for 24 years. The reason that I chose Wyndham were the same that you have mentioned in your analysis.  The company back in 1984 - 1985 seemed to me to be the leader in Timeshare Development and they given the industry's reputation back then were head and shoulders above what I deemed to be their primary competition.  

If you desire the very best in extravagant vacations Disney, Marriott, and Hilton probably are the current leaders. Most, if not all of those companies are relatively newcomers.  Bluegreen Resorts and Peppertree are two competitors of Wyndham that immediately come to mind and between the two Bluegreen probably builds a better product.

Keeping in mind that you are a Re-Sale purchaser who wants a good value but reasonable on-going costs I have to continue to recommend Wyndham.

Personally I have never been to Wyndham Fairfield Bay; but from all accounts that I have perused it appears to be a Crown Jewel in Wyndham's portifolio.

The Units are large and the overall resort is huge with many amenities that have to be attractive to owners and guests alike.

Since you probably do not need ARP at that location the relative cost of on-going maintenance and the proxmity to where you reside is probably your most persuasive concern. 

Looks like HOA's at Wyndham Resort at Fairfield Bay have very reasonable underlying maintenance fees.  

If it were me here is the way I would approach the purchase.

First, I would look on TUG and E-Bay for opportunities to purchase an underlying week.  Chances are you will find many opportunities within a relative short time frame. 

Then after lining up several options I would contact the Seller and get detailed information about the specific unit, season, and HOA. 

Once you know the name of the HOA you can review the maintenance history spreadsheet.  Recommend you contact the HOA office and get a copy of the HOA BUDGET Sheets for the past several years. If they can provide the information go back up to five years.

What you are looking for is an indication of good management. If there has been reasonable set asides for Reserves that is a good indication. A recent Special Assessment is not a big deal because the previous owner should have paid that SA and that is a good thing for you.  

Once you have narrowed your options specifically ask the Seller for a copy of the Deed and an Estoppel Letter by E-Mail attachment. You want to make sure you are getting a Deed for a specific week and that points have been tied to the property that you are buying.  A deed for a prime week will carry considerably more points than a deed for a Blue Week. 

From those documents you can determine if what is being sold and what is advertised matches up.


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## VacationDiva (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow, GoofyHobbie, you have given me a lot to think about and process. Thanks so much for your perspective on Wyndham and other timeshare systems. I really appreciate your sharing your experience with me--it has been very helpful. You summed up my priorities very well. 

I also really appreciate your thoughts on investigating the resorts that interest me. You have provided me with practical tools and a process for assessing the value of the properties, gathering information on the HOA's and judging the quality of the management of these properties. Thanks so much for these many insights--I am starting to feel more confident in taking the leap. I have been looking around and I have a couple of offerings I will be following up on more knowledgeably than I would have been able to do before these extremely helpful exchanges between you and others here. 

Best regards,

Kristin


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## carl2591 (Aug 25, 2009)

I have downloaded the excel file on MF for Wyndham and have no clue how to make it work

so my question is
which location has the current lowest MF in the FF/Wyndham resort in US.

I have heard Pergosa springs is a low one.. I get stuff from jeff Fudge at RPMI Realty all the time with wyndham deals..

a recent one was bonnet creek and in doing the math I came up with $4.60K for MF.. (605K, $2,785 MF)
on Smokey Mtn resort its $4.47K (737K, $3253 MF) 

do these number look right for current MF


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## ausman (Aug 25, 2009)

It is an excel file and anything that can read excel files, especially including excel its self, can open and read it.

If you can not read it using any program you have, then Open Office would be the one I would recommend you use. A Google search should find.


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## Goofyhobbie (Aug 26, 2009)

Carl,

Please clairfy. Which Excel file are you trying to get to work?  

My guess is you are trying to get the "Maintenance Fee Calculator" ("MFC") to work for you.  The intent of the Calculator is to help one do various scenerios to get a more accurate idea of what will best fit in your *Wyndham Points *portifolio.

The calculator is designed to reflect Wyndham Points contracts that you own plus any new Wyndham Points contracts that you might want to consider adding.  It is NOT designed for you to input other properties outside of Wyndham Points properties.  For example, I own a Barrier Island Property and two Wyndham "Weeks" properties. I cannot input that data and come out with an overall portifolio cost because the "MFC" is not set up for inclusion of Wyndham "Weeks" and it is not set-up to include properties that have nothing to do with Wyndham.

However, I can isolate on specific Wyndham POA's where I own points and then add prospective Point totals that I might want to consider addding to my portifolio of Wyndham Points.

The "MFC" is specificily set-up so you can easily access current Wyndham Points POA fees and then add proposed Wyndham Points POA fees to get an overall picture of what your *"Wyndham"* portifolio would cost based on today's POA Maintenance Fee Cost plus the appropriate "Program Fee."


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## Goofyhobbie (Aug 27, 2009)

*Maintenance Fee Calculation*

Considering just the *1994-2009 Maintenance Fee Spreadsheet *you should keep in mind that the data is primarily provided by Wyndham Vacation Timeshare owners so there is information that has not been fully developed and it is quite possible that some of the information was entered incorrectly.

The Maintenance Fees should be checked with the specific Wyndham POA and/or Wyndham if you are going to rely on the information to make a purchase. Also keep in mind that the data presented is just what a POA charges for Maintenance Fee. The data does not include Wyndham's "Program Fee." 

*Carl said:*


> so my question is which location has the current lowest MF in the FF/Wyndham resort in US.



Carl, to get that answer is not easy. First you have to determine what you are about to purchase. If you are going after a purchase of property where the Maintenance Fees are calculated on UDI points it appears that the lowest per thousand rate can be found at the new San Francisco Resort or at the new National Harbor Resort.

However, be extremely cautious in your assumptions if considering the LOWEST UDI MF per thousand points.  Wyndham as the Developer is in MARKETING MODE. As long as the sales offices at the Resort are open the designated maintenance fee will be artificially low because (1) they need to keep it low compared to the competition and to interest buyers at full Retail price; (2) actual cost to maintain a NEW resort is significantly low especially if there are unsold and therefore underused UNITS. 

When buying Re-sale, my recommendation is to buy where you will use the resort and then consider whether or not Advance Reseveration Priority (ARP) would be important to you.  If ARP is not important then POINTS ARE POINTS. Buy where you think, all things considered, you are getting the best deal.

When considering the Maintenance Fee associated with a specific Points Contract at a specific Resort consider a Resort POA with a relatively long history and look into whether or not there has been adequate reserves set aside by the POA.   

If you are considering purchasing a Wyndham Points contract that involves the underlying maintenance fee of a Week unit then the calculation is easier.



> I have heard Pergosa springs is a low one.. I get stuff from jeff Fudge at RPMI Realty all the time with wyndham deals..



You simply need to know the points granted to the week by Wyndham and then divide the current maintenance fee by that point number.  (For Example: If you purchased a Pagosa Springs (Masters Place) 2 BR Unit in Prime RED time Wyndham would have probably assigned a point value of 154K. Just take the current maintenance fee of $474 and divide by 154 to get $3.08K as your MF cost. To that fee you would still have to add the "Program Fee" applicable to your overall points portifolio to get the total cost.   



> a recent one was bonnet creek and in doing the math I came up with $4.60K for MF.. (605K, $2,785 MF)



Your estimate of $4.60K for MF (including .65 for Florida Real Estate Tax may be correct.  But that number would only be Maintenance Fee and would not be including the "Wyndham Program Fee."  If one owned a total of 605K the current program fee would be 51 cents per thousand points. So, if you are about to buy 605K at Bonnet Creek figure at least 3.64 MF + .60 tax + .51 for "Program Fee."  Your 2009 cost based on those numbers for 605K would be at least $2,873.75 and possibly more if actual 2009 MF was 3.95K as the spreadsheet indicates + at least .60 for Real Estate Taxes + .51.

Note: there currently is no estimate of 2009 Florida Real Estate Tax for Bonnet Creek so the reported $3.95K for 2009 MF is probably low.



> on Smokey Mtn resort its $4.47K (737K, $3253 MF)



According to the Spreadsheet *Sevierville - Smokey Mountains Governor's Crossing I *had a 2009 MF of $3.89 and *Governor's Crossing II *came in at $3.70. Using the lower number and the points you are considering (737K the annual cost would be 737 x 3.70 = $2,726.90 plus the cost of the "Program Fee" of .51 per thousand.  Therefore, the 2009 annual cost of 737K would be $3,102.77 or $258.56 per month.


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## Jya-Ning (Aug 27, 2009)

Goofyhobbie said:


> Considering just the *1994-2009 Maintenance Fee Spreadsheet *you should keep in mind that the data is primarily provided by Wyndham Vacation Timeshare owners so there is information that has not been fully developed and it is quite possible that some of the information was entered incorrectly.



I am pretty sure at least upto 2007 the data is provided by Wyndham.  and I believe 2008-2009 is very reliable.  The SA and real state tax maybe missing.  If there is error on the data, you should let Glenn know.

Jya-Ning


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