# Rescinding should not be automatic response



## csalter2 (Aug 2, 2019)

One of the things I notice here is that some on this site automatically without any questions asked tell a person who bought directly from the developer to rescind. I believe we should not always be so quick to tell people to rescind without hearing the whole story or getting more information. 

There are times where you can come out ahead with the developer. It’s not always the case but it does happen. This can be especially true if a large amount of points are being purchased. The hybrid bundles are example, buying resale weeks and bringing them through Marriott are clear examples of developer purchase not necessarily being inferior to resale. We have seen some creative newbies navigate through some of these deals with the developer and do better or equal to resale. 

Plus, you don’t get any freebies with resale purchases. I’m not saying to not ever suggest rescind but it should not be an automatic response.


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## bnoble (Aug 2, 2019)

Rescinding absolutely should be the automatic response. The time window for doing so is limited---and the question is often asked here near the end of that window. That's not enough time to make a rational judgement of the costs/benefits particularly because the person asking the question hasn't or can't give us enough information to help them make that decision. Plus, if after sufficient due diligence you discover that the purchase terms were favorable, you can almost certainly get them re-written.

There's an important distinction here: the advice to rescind should be automatic because of the time asymmetry. The advice to prefer a purchase on the secondary market vs. from the developer is not automatic, as you rightly point out.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Rescinding absolutely should be the automatic response. The time window for doing so is limited---and the question is often asked here near the end of that window. That's not enough time to make a rational judgement of the costs/benefits particularly because the person asking the question hasn't or can't give us enough information to help them make that decision. Plus, if after sufficient due diligence you discover that the purchase terms were favorable, you can almost certainly get them re-written.
> 
> There's an important distinction here: the advice to rescind should be automatic because of the time asymmetry. The advice to prefer a purchase on the secondary market vs. from the developer is not automatic, as you rightly point out.



If the person coming here is asking a question about what they bought and is unsure if what they purchased was smart, then I agree 100% with what you say - rescind should be an automatic, or almost automatic, response.

However, what I think Carlito is referring to, is there have been a couple recent cases (and some older ones), where obviously well-informed, well-researched posters have posted about their purchase of a hybrid/bundle, or maybe a points buy to enroll post-2010 resales. Even in those cases where the poster is obviously not a newbie and has done their homework, there are sometimes those that still tend to bring out the old "rescind and buy resale argument." The bottom line is, if you want DC Points instead of weeks, have done your homework, and buy one of the hybrid-style packages that MVC sells, your net cost can be very close to the cost of buying resale points after paying the MVC $3/point activation fee.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2019)

if someone is looking for help or questioning what they purchased enough to register on a timeshare forum and ask for advice....it should absolutely be an automatic response.

in fact there is no better reason I can think of for someone to rescind if they still have questions or concerns about what they signed while on vacation.

now I can agree with your comment that in some cases, a developer purchase might not be as universally bad as it is usually described on just about every new buyer post....but rescinding does not in any way shape or form prevent an owner from returning or contacting that salesperson and getting that exact same deal offered weeks or months down the road should they do their research and decide buying from a developer is right for them.

lots of folks seem to think the advice to rescind somehow translates to "timeshares suck, dont buy at all"...when in fact in almost all circumstances it is instead "you only have a few short days to legally cancel what you own, you should absolutely rescind and do your research and make an educated and informed decision before committing yourself to a significant financial investment"


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## DaveNV (Aug 2, 2019)

What Brian said.  ^^^

Dave


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 2, 2019)

Time is your enemy.  You have limited time to rescind.  You likely need more time to learn than the rescission period.  Once you have learned and answer questions you are always at liberty to purchase from the developer but in a more well informed position.


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## Grammarhero (Aug 2, 2019)

I think it should be the automatic response.  Developer purchases works in 2-5 percent of cases.  Thus, rescinding should be automatic option.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 2, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> One of the things I notice here is that some on this site automatically without any questions asked tell a person who bought directly from the developer to rescind. I believe we should not always be so quick to tell people to rescind without hearing the whole story or getting more information.
> 
> There are times where you can come out ahead with the developer. It’s not always the case but it does happen. This can be especially true if a large amount of points are being purchased. The hybrid bundles are example, buying resale weeks and bringing them through Marriott are clear examples of developer purchase not necessarily being inferior to resale. We have seen some creative newbies navigate through some of these deals with the developer and do better or equal to resale.
> 
> Plus, you don’t get any freebies with resale purchases. I’m not saying to not ever suggest rescind but it should not be an automatic response.



Totally agree. And minutes later a post came up from a member asking about a purchase and I said do not rescind as it made sense.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 2, 2019)

Absolutely, if someone says they're within the rescission period and they don't appear to know what they've bought or what else might be available to them, then "rescind while you can" is always the right answer.

But I've also seen the recent threads that Carlito's talking about, where people knew what they were buying but had specific questions about how best to now use it. In one case especially, the person is STILL being belittled for buying a direct-purchase Marriott hybrid package even now that the rescission period is over.

So sure, advice to rescind is generally good advice. But the questions from new buyers aren't always about the purchase itself, and we're no help at all if we ignore the fact that sometimes buyers actually do know what they're buying but they just need some help using it.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 2, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> But I've also seen the recent threads that Carlito's talking about, where people knew what they were buying but had specific questions about how best to now use it. In one case especially, the person is STILL being belittled for buying a direct-purchase Marriott hybrid package even now that the rescission period is over.
> 
> .



Yes, and I find this absolutely ridiculous.


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## Passepartout (Aug 2, 2019)

If they are questioning their purchase, why not recommend rescission so they can study, and make an INFORMED decision? If it turns out that after taking the time without the pressure of a commissioned sales person breathing down their neck, that the retail 'deal' is for them, it'll always be available. If Not, and the rescission period has passed, they are out tens of thousands of dollars.

It's no contest!

Jim


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## csalter2 (Aug 2, 2019)

All I’m trying to say is before you hit the rescind button to at least ask a question to know what you’re telling them to rescind. It doesn’t take any time to ask a question regarding their purchase or even their potential purchase. I’ve read don’t purchase from the developer to potential buyers. It’s always good to hear both offers. On more than one occasion once the developer went through their spiels of trying to convince buyers to pay retail prices, I’ve seen them come down to earth once they realize you’re aware of the resale market. I’ve seen that not only with myself but with in laws with whom I’ve attended their sales presentations. They recognize there is competition, but they prey on the uniformed. Those of us who consider ourselves informed and feel that resale is the ONLY WAY ALL THE TIME are also potentially prey to our own biases. Just a thought. NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL, ALL OF THE TIME.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2019)

can someone explain to me what is lost by rescinding?  I often wonder if I am missing something?

how exactly does rescinding hurt the consumer in any way shape form or fashion?  if you rescinded, and took a few weeks to research your decision then decided it was indeed right for you, the salesman would likely do everything short of knock on the front door of your house to get you to resign that original sales contract if you expressed interest in it.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 2, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> can someone explain to me what is lost by rescinding?  I often wonder if I am missing something?
> 
> how exactly does rescinding hurt the consumer in any way shape form or fashion?  if you rescinded, and took a few weeks to research your decision then decided it was indeed right for you, the salesman would likely do everything short of knock on the front door of your house to get you to resign that original sales contract if you expressed interest in it.



Sure, and you are missing what the OP is asking. Let's use your example, you rescinded, did all that, and re-purchased. Now you post on TUG about the deal, and guess what happens.....

Same thing. You are an idiot for buying. Reference the thread SueDonJ is referring to.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 2, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> can someone explain to me what is lost by rescinding?  I often wonder if I am missing something?
> 
> how exactly does rescinding hurt the consumer in any way shape form or fashion?  if you rescinded, and took a few weeks to research your decision then decided it was indeed right for you, the salesman would likely do everything short of knock on the front door of your house to get you to resign that original sales contract if you expressed interest in it.



Nothing is lost by rescinding! But consider, nobody here is saying that rescission shouldn't be recommended when a person doesn't appear to know that there are other options out there!

What Carlito is talking about, I think, are the few recent threads where people posted something like, _"I just bought XYZ direct. I know I could have bought ABC resale and use II to get XYZ, I know I could have bought DEF and rented it out using the cash to get XYZ, I know somebody else might have chosen any other resale option to get what they wanted ... but I wanted the easiest way to get XYZ without exchanging/renting, and I wanted the extras from the developer that somebody else might not want. So ... given that I own what I want and I bought it from the developer even knowing the other options, now I want to know how to best use it. What is my reservation window, what do I have to do, where on the website do I find ... etc?"_ and instead of getting answers to their questions, they got RESCIND NOW in eight different languages. That makes no sense and gives no consideration to the poster's obvious knowledge. That's what we're talking about here.

Every so often these kinds of posts/responses happen in multiple threads at the same time. I get Carlito's frustration but this will pass just like every other time has.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 2, 2019)

Exactly


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## JIMinNC (Aug 2, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> can someone explain to me what is lost by rescinding?  I often wonder if I am missing something?
> 
> how exactly does rescinding hurt the consumer in any way shape form or fashion?  if you rescinded, and took a few weeks to research your decision then decided it was indeed right for you, the salesman would likely do everything short of knock on the front door of your house to get you to resign that original sales contract if you expressed interest in it.




Brian,

What Carlito, Steve, Susan, and I are talking about is *not* the newbie who comes on TUG with buyer's remorse and clearly doesn't understand what they bought. That buyer should rescind and research.

What we're talking about is knowledgeable, informed buyers who did their research, but understand the products and bought a specific package from the developer that was competitive with resale. It may be rare in most timeshare systems, but in the Marriott system, if you want DC Points instead of weeks, buying a hybrid package from MVC often/usually comes out about the same price as fully-costed resale points (after paying MVC's activation fees).

It happened to me in 2014 when we bought our initial MVC ownership in a hybrid package from MVC. Our cost was $6.98/point, almost exactly what it would have cost for external resale pure trust points. Several folks basically told me I should "rescind immediately and buy resale weeks; never buy from a developer. You paid too much," even though I spent months on TUG researching the MVC system, hybrid packages, resale points, etc. I knew exactly what I was buying, but I was still told "RESCIND!!"


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2019)

I dont disagree with your comments/concerns about this specific example.  I doubt folks have anything but other owners best interest in mind. 

there are far worse things someone can be accused of than making a mistake while trying to save a fellow timeshare owner a buck!


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## controller1 (Aug 3, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> . . .
> I doubt folks have anything but other owners best interest in mind.
> . . .



This statement causes me to doubt your doubt!  



SueDonJ said:


> . . .
> 
> But I've also seen the recent threads that Carlito's talking about, where people knew what they were buying but had specific questions about how best to now use it. In one case especially, the person is STILL being belittled for buying a direct-purchase Marriott hybrid package even now that the rescission period is over.


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## csalter2 (Aug 3, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> can someone explain to me what is lost by rescinding?  I often wonder if I am missing something?
> 
> how exactly does rescinding hurt the consumer in any way shape form or fashion?  if you rescinded, and took a few weeks to research your decision then decided it was indeed right for you, the salesman would likely do everything short of knock on the front door of your house to get you to resign that original sales contract if you expressed interest in it.



If you’ve got a deer in the headlights and they haven’t a clue, they couldn’t even express what they have or done within their sales presentation, I recommend rescind too. However, that’s not the case for everyone.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 3, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> If the person coming here is asking a question about what they bought and is unsure if what they purchased was smart, then I agree 100% with what you say - rescind should be an automatic, or almost automatic, response.
> 
> However, what I think Carlito is referring to, is there have been a couple recent cases (and some older ones), where obviously well-informed, well-researched posters have posted about their purchase of a hybrid/bundle, or maybe a points buy to enroll post-2010 resales. Even in those cases where the poster is obviously not a newbie and has done their homework, there are sometimes those that still tend to bring out the old "rescind and buy resale argument." The bottom line is, if you want DC Points instead of weeks, have done your homework, and buy one of the hybrid-style packages that MVC sells, your net cost can be very close to the cost of buying resale points after paying the MVC $3/point activation fee.


Fair, but I can probably count on one hand the number of instances that I have seen here were this applied...


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## JIMinNC (Aug 3, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Fair, but I can probably count on one hand the number of instances that I have seen here were this applied...



Off the top, can think of enough to take up more than one hand, maybe getting close to two hands...and I'm still thinking. I might get to my toes yet!


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## csalter2 (Aug 3, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Fair, but I can probably count on one hand the number of instances that I have seen here were this applied...



It’s happening more frequently where people who are knowledgeable owners are buying from Marriott for good reasons for them.


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## bnoble (Aug 3, 2019)

There are a number of people doing the same with Wyndham with a blended purchase plus PIC. Not for me, but it works for some people based on how they personally value the perks and extras.


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## OldGuy (Aug 3, 2019)

rescind


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## GregT (Aug 3, 2019)

My good friend purchased 15,000 trust points direct. I told him that he should consider rescinding or only buying 7500 and renting the difference because he was able to get sufficient access at that time at that level. He didn’t care and he has the money to not worry about it.

We also discussed just buying the points resale, and he pointed out that that would take 3 to 4 months to close and he would miss his window to make a reservation for the next year.  Which was important to him.  I offered to rent points and make the reservation for him but he didn’t want to “inconvenience me”.

 So he at least understood his options and I do agree with Carlito that sometimes the automatic rescind may not be the right advice.  I would have rescinded and waited but he has money to have this not be a hardship. 

Best,

Greg


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## Quilter (Aug 3, 2019)

Hi Greg.  Your post brought to mind so many questions.

The 15,000 gives your friend a certain level.  Forgive me, I’m not versed in the points per level.  What level (status) did he get with his purchase?  Does he understand that point status will not trump owners using their weeks at home resorts?

What is his age and income level?

Did you talk to him alone or is he married and you talked to him and his wife?

Children?

Has he ever purchased other property impulsively?

Did he understand that for the amount he’s laying out on the purchase that you could charge a reasonable rental rate negating any trouble or inconvenience?

I thought about the friends I have who let me book them rooms.   There are the ones who think it’s great and then there’s the couple who went out and bought a Disney developers week because they had the money.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 3, 2019)

He gets Chairmans Club.


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## kds4 (Aug 3, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> He gets Chairmans Club.



Which is the current top tier of MVC ownership. If MVC continues with past practice, as the number of owned points required to obtain a tier continue to rise and/or new tiers are introduced into the ownership program, he should continue to float up/maintain his top tier status (whether still called Chairman's Club or something else).


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## Passepartout (Aug 3, 2019)

I think I might have gone off a little half-cocked- being defensive of my automatic rescind response. I had not noticed that this thread is specific to the Marriott Forum. 

My feeling is that most folks who find themselves at Marriott presentations are fairly well heeled travelers, and are used to a 'certain level' of comfort, service, luxury, and expense. Also, Marriott as well as other hotel branded 5**** timeshare brands are protected by ROFR of resales. In other words, These TS's have an 'exit plan'.

This differs significantly from most first-time posters here who come to TUG fresh from a presentation/purchase at someplace like Wastegate/DRI/Wyndham/ or other 'mass market' timeshare developers who discount their initial visits and herd the initiated into uninformed buying in loud, rowdy, high pressure sales rooms. All those visitors want is a cheap vacation. Not ONE of them went to that presentation to buy a timeshare. Unlike the 'typical' Marriott buyer who tends to be more informed and actually goes in expecting to pay for the upscale experience.

So anyway, I apologize if I inadvertently urged an informed first-timer to rescind a Marriott purchase. But I won't apologize for recommending an UNINFORMED buyer who feels that they were pressured into buying something they don't understand to rescind and learn what timeshare is all about. And after they become informed, perhaps they'll end up buying Marriott (or other high end TS) and living happily ever after.

Jim


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## kds4 (Aug 3, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> I think I might have gone off a little half-cocked- being defensive of my automatic rescind response. I had not noticed that this thread is specific to the Marriott Forum.
> 
> My feeling is that most folks who find themselves at Marriott presentations are fairly well heeled travelers, and are used to a 'certain level' of comfort, service, luxury, and expense. Also, Marriott as well as other hotel branded 5**** timeshare brands are protected by ROFR of resales. In other words, These TS's have an 'exit plan'.
> 
> ...



A lot of truth here. Years ago, DW and I went to a Wyndham presentation in Myrtle Beach. I believe we were offered vouchers for some sort of local attractions. I was more curious to see what a non-Marriott presentation/product was like (maybe to validate our previous choice to become Marriott owners - not because I wanted to actually purchase a non-Marriott product unless it was actually better). Jim's description of the presentation experience is spot on. It was chaotic, high-pressure, and when we went to visit their local 'flagship' property to 'close the deal', it was not up to what I would have considered to be an entry-level MVC property. That's not meant to come across as snobbish but simply a comparison of the quality of construction, amenities, and furnishings of this 'top' Wyndham property. For most persons experiencing that, I would automatically say rescind and research other systems for comparison before making a purchase.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 3, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Off the top, can think of enough to take up more than one hand, maybe getting close to two hands...and I'm still thinking. I might get to my toes yet!


My point is that they are the exception rather than the rule. If the person is a TUG regular, then they have likely done their research but many people bought 1,000 point packages in the early days of DC that were probably not well thought out. There are very few here who have done the research beforehand, so rescind is the right response.

I think just letting people know that the option of rescission is there, some people may be coming here after buying a timeshare, being a first time poster, and not even know they have a right of rescission or don't understand the clock is ticking. Even if you did your research, there may be other perspectives that you didn't think of that end up making rescinding the best advice.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 3, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> My feeling is that most folks who find themselves at Marriott presentations are fairly well heeled travelers, and are used to a 'certain level' of comfort, service, luxury, and expense. Also, Marriott as well as other hotel branded 5**** timeshare brands are protected by ROFR of resales. In other words, These TS's have an 'exit plan'.


They may have an exit plan, but the exit is still a very expensive exit. Even Marriott DC Trust points lose about 60-70% of their value the day after the rescission period ends. That may also be something that the first time relatively informed buyer doesn't know.


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## kds4 (Aug 3, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> They may have an exit plan, but the exit is still a very expensive exit. Even Marriott DC Trust points lose about 60-70% of their value the day after the rescission period ends. That may also be something that the first time relatively informed buyer doesn't know.



Hopefully, a better formal exit plan with a higher ROI is in the works.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 3, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> I think I might have gone off a little half-cocked- being defensive of my automatic rescind response. I had not noticed that this thread is specific to the Marriott Forum.
> 
> My feeling is that most folks who find themselves at Marriott presentations are fairly well heeled travelers, and are used to a 'certain level' of comfort, service, luxury, and expense. Also, Marriott as well as other hotel branded 5**** timeshare brands are protected by ROFR of resales. In other words, These TS's have an 'exit plan'.
> 
> ...



For this reason, we only attend presentations at MVC, Vistana, Hyatt and HGVC to avoid the high pressure circus.

99% of the posters who ask need to do a lot more research. For the 1% who want a sanity check, they can state upfront that they are experienced and want a sanity check. They can pass over the knee-jerk rescind. If all of the respondents responded negatively, they can pm a few they trust to double check. Nothing to lose by rescinding except time. A lot to lose by buying something with questions.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 3, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> My point is that they are the exception rather than the rule. If the person is a TUG regular, then they have likely done their research but many people bought 1,000 point packages in the early days of DC that were probably not well thought out. There are very few here who have done the research beforehand, so rescind is the right response.
> 
> I think just letting people know that the option of rescission is there, some people may be coming here after buying a timeshare, being a first time poster, and not even know they have a right of rescission or don't understand the clock is ticking. Even if you did your research, there may be other perspectives that you didn't think of that end up making rescinding the best advice.



Agree 100%. But I think the "exceptions" were the situations that prompted the OP. One size doesn't fit all, so I think he was cautioning folks to make sure they understand the person posting's knowledge level before automatically jumping on the "rescind" bandwagon. While there haven't been many of those situations, I suspect there have been a lot more on the Marriott board than on TUG as whole.


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## Big Matt (Aug 3, 2019)

Warren Buffet has a quote that says: "Never invest in a business that you don't understand." 

I think that sums it up with regard to timeshares.  Timeshares are complicated.  There is a resale market.  There are increasing costs and special assessments.  You can trade them for other things (now even more things than before).  They are weeks based, points based, have lock offs.  There are multiple companies to buy into (Marriott, Hilton, Diamond, etc.).  There are different trading companies. You can rent them.  I can go on and on.  

You need to be completely educated to make an informed decision.  Only after you are educated will you know what you value and how much you should spend.

Rescind is always the best hedge if you don't know what you are buying or what you will do with it.


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## GregT (Aug 3, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Hi Greg.  Your post brought to mind so many questions.
> 
> The 15,000 gives your friend a certain level.  Forgive me, I’m not versed in the points per level.  What level (status) did he get with his purchase?  Does he understand that point status will not trump owners using their weeks at home resorts?
> 
> ...



He is in his early 40's, two children (maybe 9 and 12 now?  This was a few years ago).   He spent $140K on the purchase and didn't need to finance it.   He is married but I talked only to him, and not to his wife at the same time, which is an interesting observation.   Our families had been going to Maui together for years and I know making the reservation for the following year had some value to him.   

He did have problems that first year making the reservation and ended up having to make two reservations for 2BR OFs and trying to combine them -- but they were different room types (2BR L/O and 2BR Master of a 3BR).  He wasn't happy about that...

Interesting case study.   And clearly the ideal sales target for Marriott...

Best,

Greg


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## JIMinNC (Aug 3, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Hi Greg.  Your post brought to mind so many questions.
> 
> The 15,000 gives your friend a certain level.  Forgive me, I’m not versed in the points per level.  What level (status) did he get with his purchase?  Does he understand that point status will not trump owners using their weeks at home resorts?
> 
> ...



As Greg's response above seems to portray, to some people, convenience, control, and simplicity are more important than price. Greg's friend could have saved $40K by buying resale points instead, but getting the deal done was more important than the $$.

We are similar, in that often convenience and control are more important to us than the absolutely lowest price. I will pay more for convenience and control, but not $40K. But for someone with more significant financial resources, maybe $40K isn't that big of a deal for them, so the value is in the convenience and control. That's a key reason I am not willing to rent weeks from owners - the extra value of controlling my own reservation is more important than the potential cost savings from a rental from an owner.

As I've said over and over here on TUG...one size does not fit all.

And $40K is relative...as an extreme example, do you think Jeff Bezos might rent from an owner to save $40K? That's chump change to folks like that. Greg's friend may not be Bezos, but $40K may look different based on the seat you sit in.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 3, 2019)

If its an informed decision that go for it.  I have with FULL knowledge and intent, twice bought from a developer, because it was the deal I wanted.  I purchased once ONLY directly from Wyndham a 160K purchase to obtain VIP Platinum Status.  I also purchased from Tradewinds because I want to go more than once every 4 years, and, at the time, there was not much inventory available via resale market.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 3, 2019)

GregT said:


> My good friend purchased 15,000 trust points direct. I told him that he should consider rescinding or only buying 7500 and renting the difference because he was able to get sufficient access at that time at that level. He didn’t care and he has the money to not worry about it.
> 
> We also discussed just buying the points resale, and he pointed out that that would take 3 to 4 months to close and he would miss his window to make a reservation for the next year.  Which was important to him.  I offered to rent points and make the reservation for him but he didn’t want to “inconvenience me”.
> 
> ...



Agree These are good targets for MVC, HGVC developer. Many of my colleagues in tech have more money than time. Dropping $140k for something that doesn't make them have to expend more energy is not a stretch. Much less expense and hassle than a "second home."

We own a second home. Although the appreciation has been nice, it is a hassle. As we age, I envision selling the second home and just using our timeshares. It's nice to go on vacation and not have maintenance.


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## OldGuy (Aug 3, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> Warren Buffet has a quote that says: "Never invest in a business that you don't understand."
> 
> I think that sums it up with regard to timeshares.  Timeshares are complicated.  There is a resale market.  There are increasing costs and special assessments.  You can trade them for other things (now even more things than before).  They are weeks based, points based, have lock offs.  There are multiple companies to buy into (Marriott, Hilton, Diamond, etc.).  There are different trading companies. You can rent them.  I can go on and on.
> 
> You need to be completely educated to make an informed decision.  Only after you are educated will you know what you value and how much you should spend.



That only takes about 3 hours with a qualified presenter.


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## SeaDoc (Aug 3, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> One of the things I notice here is that some on this site automatically without any questions asked tell a person who bought directly from the developer to rescind. I believe we should not always be so quick to tell people to rescind without hearing the whole story or getting more information.
> 
> There are times where you can come out ahead with the developer. It’s not always the case but it does happen. This can be especially true if a large amount of points are being purchased. The hybrid bundles are example, buying resale weeks and bringing them through Marriott are clear examples of developer purchase not necessarily being inferior to resale. We have seen some creative newbies navigate through some of these deals with the developer and do better or equal to resale.
> 
> Plus, you don’t get any freebies with resale purchases. I’m not saying to not ever suggest rescind but it should not be an automatic response.



Agreed, it is an extremely personal and financial decision.  Purchasing “on the street” is not a cakewalk and buyer beware is more acute in that environment rather than purchasing with the developer.  Each prospective purchaser must do their own cost benefit analysis.  


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## Dean (Aug 3, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> One of the things I notice here is that some on this site automatically without any questions asked tell a person who bought directly from the developer to rescind. I believe we should not always be so quick to tell people to rescind without hearing the whole story or getting more information.
> 
> There are times where you can come out ahead with the developer. It’s not always the case but it does happen. This can be especially true if a large amount of points are being purchased. The hybrid bundles are example, buying resale weeks and bringing them through Marriott are clear examples of developer purchase not necessarily being inferior to resale. We have seen some creative newbies navigate through some of these deals with the developer and do better or equal to resale.
> 
> Plus, you don’t get any freebies with resale purchases. I’m not saying to not ever suggest rescind but it should not be an automatic response.


I don't think it is an automatic response but I think it is the automatic response when someone is new or uncertain.  As noted, they can't always become better educated and buy retail later if that is best but they can spend a few weeks or months investigating then cancel later.  I've owned maybe 80-90 weeks/contracts over the years, many of which I still do.  Of those exactly 3 were retail purchases and all of those once I was well versed in the ins and outs of all products plus I bought my first Marriott resale direct from resale Sally.  The first week I bought was a Surfwatch pre-construction week which made my resale weeks at Grande Ocean to be counted as retail.  It was an OK choice at the time but the DC system make it a non issue so it didn't work out as well as I'd have liked.  The second was a pre-construction DVC contract but get 4*25 points with the plans to dump all but 25 and sell everything else to have the perks but I never followed through on selling the rest including my BWV points.  The last was just a couple of months ago an Aruba Platinum 3 BR with enrollment of our 7.5 non enrolled weeks.  But it should be in context which I think is essentially what you're saying.


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## SMB1 (Aug 8, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> Warren Buffet has a quote that says: "Never invest in a business that you don't understand."
> 
> I think that sums it up with regard to timeshares.  Timeshares are complicated.  There is a resale market.  There are increasing costs and special assessments.  You can trade them for other things (now even more things than before).  They are weeks based, points based, have lock offs.  There are multiple companies to buy into (Marriott, Hilton, Diamond, etc.).  There are different trading companies. You can rent them.  I can go on and on.
> 
> ...



This makes sense in theory.  But I don't think one can really fully understand timeshare or be completely educated until they test the waters.  No doubt it should be an informed decision, but even then some will find that it is not for them.  As you said timeshares are complicated.  I bought developer, rescinded, and went on the "timeshare is the devil" kick for many years. Thought I learned my lesson.  

Reluctantly agreed to to a Marriott "getaway" only because three other families were all going together.  LOVED the product.  Bought developer.  FOUND TUG!  Read like crazy.  Learned lots.  Consider myself sufficiently informed, but of course STILL LEARNING.  Bought resale (non-marriott).  Bought Marriott Developer 2x more.  Bought points.  Sold non-Marriott resale.  Bought Marriott resale.  Bought non-Marriott resale. Bought more DC points.  

One just doesn't really know until they participate.  Of course one should make an informed decision, but that is less than half the know.


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## kds4 (Aug 8, 2019)

SMB1 said:


> This makes sense in theory.  But I don't think one can really fully understand timeshare or be completely educated until they test the waters.  No doubt it should be an informed decision, but even then some will find that it is not for them.  As you said timeshares are complicated.  I bought developer, rescinded, and went on the "timeshare is the devil" kick for many years. Thought I learned my lesson.
> 
> Reluctantly agreed to to a Marriott "getaway" only because three other families were all going together.  LOVED the product.  Bought developer.  FOUND TUG!  Read like crazy.  Learned lots.  Consider myself sufficiently informed, but of course STILL LEARNING.  Bought resale (non-marriott).  Bought Marriott Developer 2x more.  Bought points.  Sold non-Marriott resale.  Bought Marriott resale.  Bought non-Marriott resale. Bought more DC points.
> 
> One just doesn't really know until they participate.  Of course one should make an informed decision, but that is less than half the know.



I can describe the taste of salt to you with plenty of charts, graphics, testimonials, etc. but will you really understand it until you try it?


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 8, 2019)

Better to try it with a resale from a reputable broker. Much less cost and risk.


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## kds4 (Aug 8, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Better to try it with a resale from a reputable broker. Much less cost and risk.



We've bought and sold MVC units on eBay in the past with no difficulties (and those units tend to be cheaper for buyers, and quicker for sellers).


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## davidvel (Aug 8, 2019)

How did I miss this thread until now? 

What I gather, the arguments are:
- there should be no automatic response to rescind when one posts about their new direct points purchase
- people should always err on the side of caution and tell the poster to rescind then analyze later, due to the tight window and delays in poster coming back, etc., and the loss of the chance to rescind, but the original deal is never really lost

I side with Brian and others that any person coming here asking *any* questions about a recent developer purchase should be told to rescind immediately. There is too much risk that time will pass and rescission will be lost costing *thousands* if that's the ultimate (informed, reasoned) decision, and there is little to no chance the same deal won't be there. ie., little to no downside.

Some argue that there may a bunch of posts to a person who has already thought out the decision (or think they have thought of everything), and they shouldn't have to face the inglorious comments about their decision.  My response is too bad, and that's what the board is all about. (No, not demeaning, attacking or otherwise violating the rules.) That's the price to pay for posting and the situation described is probably less than 5% of all such posts.

If the person is really so sensitive that they don't want the "rescind" responses, and they are as thought out in their decision to buy developer and highly knowledgeable about Marriott sales as people suggest, then can easily just say "I'm past my rescission period..." at the outset of their post and it will solve all the "problems" described in this thread.


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## OldGuy (Aug 8, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> I think I might have gone off a little half-cocked- being defensive of my automatic rescind response. I had not noticed that this thread is specific to the Marriott Forum.
> 
> My feeling is that most folks who find themselves at Marriott presentations are fairly well heeled travelers, and are used to a 'certain level' of comfort, service, luxury, and expense. Also, Marriott as well as other hotel branded 5**** timeshare brands are protected by ROFR of resales. In other words, These TS's have an 'exit plan'.
> 
> ...



Telling it like it is.


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## Princ3ssgldy (Aug 8, 2019)

There are two different points being made here. I can't ever see a situation where it makes sense to purchase directly from a developer. However, even if such a situation does exists, if someone is asking whether or not to rescind, then it means that they are not certain that they got a better deal than through resale. Therefore, just the fact that the question is being asked is enough of a reason to urge rescinding. And as has been stated here, in the event that after serious consideration and research, the purchaser decides that they still want to buy direct, that option will always be there.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 8, 2019)

Princ3ssgldy said:


> I can't ever see a situation where it makes sense to purchase directly from a developer.



This is exactly the source of the issue. Many people here share that view, and refuse to believe anything else NO MATTER WHAT, thus they pontificate. 3 of our ownerships were direct purchases, and would *gladly* and willingly do so again, even in hindsight. Several others have shared in this thread the same thing. But we have a large group of people who want to mock and shame such folks with their overly simplistic views of timeshare and value. In a normal circumstance as you posted where the question is asked, we agree. But when anyone says they purchased direct (and never ask or question about rescinding), the hassling never seems to stop. All I can say to such folks is get over it. Perhaps it's not right for you, but don't even begin to think what you think applies to me or anyone else. It may of course. But no one size fits all.


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## OldGuy (Aug 8, 2019)

ouch


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 8, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> ouch



Trying to be as direct as Davidvel was. 

I hate to see people driven away by such close minded people. Tug should be open to all timeshare owners or potential owners.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 8, 2019)

Princ3ssgldy said:


> There are two different points being made here. I can't ever see a situation where it makes sense to purchase directly from a developer. However, even if such a situation does exists, if someone is asking whether or not to rescind, then it means that they are not certain that they got a better deal than through resale. Therefore, just the fact that the question is being asked is enough of a reason to urge rescinding. And as has been stated here, in the event that after serious consideration and research, the purchaser decides that they still want to buy direct, that option will always be there.



In most timeshare systems, and for traditional weeks, you are probably 100% correct that there are few, if any, situations where buying from a developer makes sense. But if you read through this entire thread, you will see several examples described within the Marriott system where people who are seeking access to the MVC points system can structure creative deals with Marriott and arrive at costs per point that are very similar to, and in some rare cases actually *less* than buying resale Marriott points. This is primarily because Marriott charges a $3/point activation fee on pure resale points purchases which can reduce or eliminate the price advantage of resale points and because Marriott does not allow resale weeks to play in the points system without a sizable purchase of points from Marriott. These are the kinds of situations we are familiar with here as Marriott owners where buying from Marriott can make sense if you want points instead of weeks.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 8, 2019)

I think it is referred to as cognitive dissonance.

Of course the first response should be ‘Rescind’ as it is correct course of action in >99.9% of the time. That is just a good decision making principle in the background of unknown or imperfect information.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 8, 2019)

There are some cases where it makes sense, but those are for the TS pros who have researched it intensely and negotiated a hard deal. It also works for people who have more money than time and want a simple scam-safe transaction. It is not for the average poster who has no idea what they bought and a limited budget.

I saw a stat that approx. 50% of Tuggers had purchased developer at some point in their TS journey. I bet if you run a poll and ask how many of those buyers would buy that unit from the developer again I suspect it would be a small fraction.


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## geist1223 (Aug 8, 2019)

We have bought from the Developer and also resell in both the Worldmark System and DRI. Both of these systems have advantages to Developer purchases. The advantage to resell is cost. In the Worldmark System if you buy resell you are limited to the about 90 Worldmark Resorts. You can not use Club Pass (direct Booking access to Wyndham Resorts) or direct Booking access to Worldmark South Pacific (which has added Bavaria, Tuscany, and Japan). When you buy resell DRI you can only use these Points to Book in the Collection to which your Points belong and then only to DRI owned/managed Resorts. But not to any of the affiliates listed in the Directory. As an example in the DRI Directory for Hawaii there are  20 - 30 Resorts but actually there are only 5 or 6 DRI Managed/owned Resorts in the Hawaiiian Collection and only 3 of them are in Hawaii. If you buy from DRI you have a 13 month Booking Window for your Home Collection (including affiliates) and a 10 Booking Window for all other Collections. 

So if your only consideration is cost then yes always rescind and never buy from the Developer. But do your research. You might find that what you want/value can only come from a Developer Purchase.


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## OldGuy (Aug 9, 2019)

There are a lot of differences in ownership and interests on this forum. 

Some, like us, after 30 years of dealing with where to buy, trading power, how to get the best exchanges, etc., are interested in owning for year-round amenities rights and discounted excess inventory for our Five Year Guest Pass holders.

Some are interested in premium, luxury, high-dollar corporate programs.

Some are only interested in getting rid of what they own.

So, when self-interests come into play there's a little bit of friction.

It's not as simple as it use-to-be.


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## davidvel (Aug 9, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> This is exactly the source of the issue. Many people here share that view, and refuse to believe anything else NO MATTER WHAT, thus they pontificate. 3 of our ownerships were direct purchases, and would *gladly* and willingly do so again, even in hindsight. Several others have shared in this thread the same thing. But we have a large group of people who want to mock and shame such folks with their overly simplistic views of timeshare and value. In a normal circumstance as you posted where the question is asked, we agree. But when anyone says they purchased direct (and never ask or question about rescinding), the hassling never seems to stop. All I can say to such folks is get over it. Perhaps it's not right for you, but don't even begin to think what you think applies to me or anyone else. It may of course. But no one size fits all.


There will always be people who have  a different opinion about a particular transaction, and the purpose of TUG is to be  forum for those opinions, including pontification. I haven't seen people supporting anyone getting mocked, shamed, or hassled, all of which violate the rules. If it occurs, it should be reported to moderators. 

I still think in 99% of cases the best first response to these threads is to ask if they are in rescission period, and tell them to rescind  if there is any question in their mind, giving them all the reasons set forth above. Debating the actual purchase itself  can come later. 

And if anyone wants to start a thread without having people telling them to rescind, they can say so, or say the period lapsed, in their first post. If people ignore that, it's up to the mods to decide if it's over the line.


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 10, 2019)

Developers like Marriott, HIlton, Hyatt, and Starwood do not build new resorts unless they think they can sell them directly to the public.  I purchased direct from Hilton prior to learning about TUG.  I purchased resale from Marriott after learning about TUG.  My wife and I love time sharing.  I think a key issue to ask is, “Where do you want to go and when do you want to go?”  We have used timesharing to travel all over the world.  We have learned that points are points and weeks are weeks regardless if purchased direct or resale.  Exchanging can sometimes be tricky and you can’t always get what you want when you want it.  Flexibility is important.

During the course of our travels, we have met people who have found their paradise on earth and have gone to the same resort annually for the past twenty years.   They seemed very happy with their direct purchase.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 10, 2019)

I will first say I haven’t read through this entire thread, but I have a standard approach that I use whenever dealing with a new poster who comes to TUG, or any of the FB Wyndham timeshare groups where I’m an admin/moderator, that at least in theory should apply fairly well to any timeshare purchase.  That said, this approach is geared primarily toward Wyndham owners.  Feedback is appreciated as to whether you good folks in the Marriott forum feel this approach is valid:

Exercise what I term the five R’s:

Rescind - unless you have in fact done step two below in spades, rescind your developer purchase first.  You have only a precious few days to rescind.  You have the rest to your natural life to decide to buy back in with the developer and probably at a better price point than the contract you are rescinding now.

Research - do your homework in spades.  Research research research.  Talk to existing owners, find timeshare sites like TUG and search and read existing content.  Chances are someone, many someone’s in fact, have been right where you are now and have taken the time to post about their experiences.  Learn from those someone’s, and follow the next step to learn better whether timesharing is a good match for you and your vacationing needs and wants.

Rent - preferably from VIP owners who can sometimes offer better rental pricing since they have VIP booking benefits that are only available to VIP owners.  Try before you buy is the idea here.  Try out the resorts to ensure you and yours actually like the vacation experiences that timesharing offers.

Resale purchase - if after performing the above three steps - you have done your homework and tried out the timeshare experience, you can now consider a resale purchase.  Buying resale generally offers the best bang for your buck and the fastest ROI/breakeven from a dollars and sense perspective.  There are a small handful of scenarios where considering a developer purchase may actually make sense.  Which brings us to the last of the R’s.

Retail purchase - if you have done your homework and determined that you are in fact part of the handful of scenarios where a retail purchase makes sense, then by all means take this step.  By now you should essentially be a timeshare expert or close to it, so you know better than anyone else what you should do.  One primary recommended rule to live by if you are considering this step. Timeshares are a luxury purchase - a want not a need.  Luxury purchases should never be financed.  If you cannot afford to make the purchase in cash up front - don’t do it.  Not following this single rule is one of the primary reasons many people end up hating timeshares.  Between the loan payments and the maintenance fees, they can’t afford to actually go on vacation.  Now they are paying for something that they cannot actually use - and nothing breeds contempt in the financial department faster than a bad investment of our hard earned money.  

Lastly, read this article on timesharing to make sure you are a good match for timeshare vacations.  I found it very helpful for me during my research phase to help frame whether timesharing was or was not a good match for myself and my family:

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2018/06/a-physician-on-timeshares-who-are-they-right-for.html


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## Arusso (Aug 10, 2019)

TUGBrian said:


> if someone is looking for help or questioning what they purchased enough to register on a timeshare forum and ask for advice....it should absolutely be an automatic response.
> 
> in fact there is no better reason I can think of for someone to rescind if they still have questions or concerns about what they signed while on vacation.
> 
> ...




Completely agree.


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## dandjane1 (Aug 10, 2019)

*We bought a combination of developer and resale points for our journey to triple Platinum at Wyndham, This was necessary in order to be able to use the 13-month advanced reservation priority, which we need for Event Weeks.
These E.W.s are gone in 10 minutes or less from the opening of the "window", so Platinum level is a must, not only for the 13 months, but for rental reservation points to cover 85 - 100% of the maintenance fees for the year, with points left over we can use for ourselves.
So, yes, it (the combination, with resale converted to developer points at purchases) works for us. 
Alas - now we're tagged as the hated and despised "Mega-Renters".
heh heh..........*


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## bnoble (Aug 10, 2019)

I hate to break it to you, but you don't need to buy from the developer to use ARP (13 month) reservations. You just need to own at the right places, and that can be done via resale.


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## DavidBr (Aug 13, 2019)

I have purchased Marriott timeshares both resale and from the developer.  My developer transactions were when I felt that a hybrid purchase of a fixed week and Destination Points, gave me a cost per point at or below what I could have achieved in the resale market on an all-in basis  (including purchase incentives and credit card points not available in a resale).  Furthermore, these hybrid packages had the advantage that I was not only trying to minimize my price per point, but I wanted a fixed week that I might frequently use.  Because the week was enrolled, I had optionality that would not have been available had I simply bought the week at resale.  Also, the resale week would not have added to my benefit level, while the enrolled week allows me to get to the Presidential level, which allows for discounted near term reservations and Titanium status for my spouse in Marriott Bonvoy.  Before actually buying from the developer, we went to a half dozen presentations before we found the exact hybrid package we wanted. So, in our specific case, we don't agree that there is no downside to rescinding.  Some of the packages we considered were not generic.  There were occasionally fixed holiday weeks or room configurations that weren't always available. The specific package we wanted was simply not always available.   I only give this example to illustrate that for the newcomer who stumbles on to TUG with the post "I don't understand what I bought and I want to know whether I made a big mistake?" the best advice is to rescind, research and possibly buy a resale.  However, for someone who has a strong understanding of what they own and what the array of alternatives are, a developer purchase can be a well-considered, favorable transaction. Hopefully, TUG continues to be more than simplistic advice for the beginner and is also a strong resource for those with different objectives (including those who rent their timeshares, those who use multiple weeks as a second home, those who want to maximize points reservations, etc.).   The combination of "Junk Fees", ROFR, hybrid packages, occasional enrollment of post 2010 resales in exchange for points purchases, benefit levels, resorts not available in II, etc. all make the analysis of this more complex.  It's no longer the just the simple case of "the $40,000 developer week is currently available at resale for $12,000.


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## LannyPC (Aug 15, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> There are times where you can come out ahead with the developer. It’s not always the case but it does happen.



One thing I notice though is that when in a thread, someone gives advice to rescind, he backs it up by pointing out a similar purchase that can be had for pennies on the dollar.  Sometimes it's a link to an E-Bay listing or even a Red Week or Tug listing.  So in such cases "Rescind!" would be sage, well thought out advice.


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## Dean (Aug 15, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> One thing I notice though is that when in a thread, someone gives advice to rescind, he backs it up by pointing out a similar purchase that can be had for pennies on the dollar.  Sometimes it's a link to an E-Bay listing or even a Red Week or Tug listing.  So in such cases "Rescind!" would be sage, well thought out advice.


IF it's exactly the same option and is applicable to the thread then absolutely the poster should be informed of the option and the recommendations.  Even if it's not for them, maybe past the cutoff date, then it's still applicable for others who might be in a similar situation.  There are times when a developer purchase makes sense but I can think of very few times when it'd be a good choice for someone new to timesharing, at least not until they were VERY well educated on the subject.


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## davidvel (Aug 15, 2019)

DavidBr said:


> .. for the newcomer who stumbles on to TUG with the post "I don't understand what I bought and I want to know whether I made a big mistake?" the best advice is to rescind, research and possibly buy a resale.  However, for someone who has a strong understanding of what they own and what the array of alternatives are, a developer purchase can be a well-considered, favorable transaction.


You nailed it, IMO with the above nugget pulled from your post. 

And I doubt that anyone who "has a strong understanding of what they own and what the array of alternatives are," is going to suddenly turn around and blindly rescind their purchase just because of a few RESCIND! posts here.


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## Renoom (Oct 16, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> If the person coming here is asking a question about what they bought and is unsure if what they purchased was smart, then I agree 100% with what you say - rescind should be an automatic, or almost automatic, response.
> 
> However, what I think Carlito is referring to, is there have been a couple recent cases (and some older ones), where obviously well-informed, well-researched posters have posted about their purchase of a hybrid/bundle, or maybe a points buy to enroll post-2010 resales. Even in those cases where the poster is obviously not a newbie and has done their homework, there are sometimes those that still tend to bring out the old "rescind and buy resale argument." The bottom line is, if you want DC Points instead of weeks, have done your homework, and buy one of the hybrid-style packages that MVC sells, your net cost can be very close to the cost of buying resale points after paying the MVC $3/point activation fee.



so i need your help. this post, along with another one from Feb 2017, has brought me to ask it here - i fall into the area between the "hey, i went to a presentation on a marketing trip and bought without knowing anything" and the "knowledgeable after doing some research" range. my wife and i have attended numerous presentations over the years, declined all of them, but finally decided to buy, and signed, last friday, for 4k points of MVC. we financed it to get discounts and the additional points offered (4k match for 8k now and 4k more at 18 months) and will pay it off after month 18 when we get our final point bonus tranche. 

but in reading on this site almost exclusively since Friday pm i've learned more than i thought there was to know! we don't want to cancel our purchase - we like the idea of the MVC, the flexibility available to us, the destinations, etc, all the reasons why people buy points. but in looking at what i've learned i want/need to know more about the hybrid option and determine if it's worth rescinding and asking for something more like that. i am open to cancelling but want to keep b/c my wife and i aren't too comfortable dealing in the aftermarket resale world of p2p purchases. i like scheduling direct with MVC and leveraging the flexibility that i'd get from that thru banking points while finalizing our vacationing strategy for the upcoming year.

when i will talk to our rep about this hybrid option what are the things i need to know about and ask for? my understanding of the hybrid option is that i'd be buying a set and fixed week at a specific location that i'd be able to convert to points if i did't want to use it (and use those points elsewhere or bank them for later use), trade it for another destination, or use it as scheduled. 

can i get some guidance on what to ask for/discuss with my sales rep?  @JIMinNC - you've posted heavily and in @GoldenVIKE 's post about his purchase being a good idea (from 2/17) you laid out what i want to accomplish with my points and, to butter you up, have become an informal mentor to me without even knowing it...

looking forward to everyone's input - thanks!


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## Dean (Oct 16, 2019)

Renoom said:


> so i need your help. this post, along with another one from Feb 2017, has brought me to ask it here - i fall into the area between the "hey, i went to a presentation on a marketing trip and bought without knowing anything" and the "knowledgeable after doing some research" range. my wife and i have attended numerous presentations over the years, declined all of them, but finally decided to buy, and signed, last friday, for 4k points of MVC. we financed it to get discounts and the additional points offered (4k match for 8k now and 4k more at 18 months) and will pay it off after month 18 when we get our final point bonus tranche.
> 
> but in reading on this site almost exclusively since Friday pm i've learned more than i thought there was to know! we don't want to cancel our purchase - we like the idea of the MVC, the flexibility available to us, the destinations, etc, all the reasons why people buy points. but in looking at what i've learned i want/need to know more about the hybrid option and determine if it's worth rescinding and asking for something more like that. i am open to cancelling but want to keep b/c my wife and i aren't too comfortable dealing in the aftermarket resale world of p2p purchases. i like scheduling direct with MVC and leveraging the flexibility that i'd get from that thru banking points while finalizing our vacationing strategy for the upcoming year.
> 
> ...


There are at least 2 questions.  Does MVC points make sense for you and what do you gain/give up buying resale vs retail.  You give up nothing and you gain savings by going resale.  The bonuses for buying are peanuts currently in your situation.  They're nice if you were going to buy retail anyway but they don't make it a good deal.  I'd cancel and do more research including on the hybrid options which may not be available right now but likely will in a few months.


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## csalter2 (Oct 16, 2019)

Renoom said:


> so i need your help. this post, along with another one from Feb 2017, has brought me to ask it here - i fall into the area between the "hey, i went to a presentation on a marketing trip and bought without knowing anything" and the "knowledgeable after doing some research" range. my wife and i have attended numerous presentations over the years, declined all of them, but finally decided to buy, and signed, last friday, for 4k points of MVC. we financed it to get discounts and the additional points offered (4k match for 8k now and 4k more at 18 months) and will pay it off after month 18 when we get our final point bonus tranche.
> 
> but in reading on this site almost exclusively since Friday pm i've learned more than i thought there was to know! we don't want to cancel our purchase - we like the idea of the MVC, the flexibility available to us, the destinations, etc, all the reasons why people buy points. but in looking at what i've learned i want/need to know more about the hybrid option and determine if it's worth rescinding and asking for something more like that. i am open to cancelling but want to keep b/c my wife and i aren't too comfortable dealing in the aftermarket resale world of p2p purchases. i like scheduling direct with MVC and leveraging the flexibility that i'd get from that thru banking points while finalizing our vacationing strategy for the upcoming year.
> 
> ...



There is not an easy answer to your question, but I will address many of them since I did start this thread and others will certainly chime in.

First, you have to know what your traveling needs are and since you have been reading I am sure you have addressed this question. Most will tell you to rescind because you may not be able to answer that question and they want to ensure your knowledge of what you're purchasing.

We do not know how much you paid for your points to give you a comparison of what a good deal is or not for your situation. However, I am thinking you may have paid around $55,000 for the 4000 points. I will share with you that you will pay more in interest to get the additional points for keeping the loan. I would pay cash for those same points via transfer and you will save a boatload of money because the interest rate is high and those additional points are not worth it. Transferring points into your account takes all of ten minutes.  You can do this through vacationpointexchange.com . Save money there.

The hybrid deals are good value for your money. You can pay between $6- $9 per point with a hybrid deal.  The weeks that are used in the hybrid deals are usually weeks that cannot be placed in the trust. These properties are usually outside of the country like Aruba, St. Kitts and Europe.  The hybrid deals usually involve one of those weeks and a number of points.  In my specific case, I received two weeks. One week from Aruba and another one at Ocean Pointe. To give you an idea of the savings I received, I my weeks elect to 9450 points for less than what you paid and my maintenance fees are about .40 per point compared to trust Destination points that you have at .58 per point.  

You have to ask your salesman for a hybrid deal. You now know of both types.  The kind that JIMNC and Viker are talking about have to do with buying Marriott Residence resale and then buying 5000 trust points to bring all of the weeks which elect to thousands of points into the Destinations Club. However, you will more than likely be paying double of what you paid for the 4000 points you have. People that do this usually vacation a lot and then rent points to subsidize their purchase.  

Please feel free to explore and question some more. You could rescind and do another deal if you want.  The same offer that you currently have will not go anywhere.


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## echino (Oct 16, 2019)

What's the value of owning Marriott points if you can consistently rent them from points owners for about $0.60 - $0.65 per point, which is close to the maintenance fees? Why buy when you can rent?


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## vacationtime1 (Oct 16, 2019)

echino said:


> What's the value of owning Marriott points if you can consistently rent them from points owners for about $0.60 - $0.65 per point, which is close to the maintenance fees? Why buy when you can rent?



I frequently wonder the same.  It is the upfront cost of DC points that makes the DC so expensive to use.  And the upfront cost is often completely avoidable.

Of course you need to be a DC member to rent points, but that requires only a minimum purchase or the enrollment of a pre-2010 week.  And there are benefits to having 4000/7000 points for making reservations (Select or Executive members).  But once those milestones are met, there is very little advantage to purchasing additional points -- as long as renting points is permitted.


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## bazzap (Oct 16, 2019)

echino said:


> What's the value of owning Marriott points if you can consistently rent them from points owners for about $0.60 - $0.65 per point, which is close to the maintenance fees? Why buy when you can rent?


It may be difficult to justify the value from a purely financial perspective.
Just a few thoughts though.
To actually rent points, you either need to already own Points or have enrolled week(s).
If you don’t, you can still rent but the Owner needs to make the booking which you then rent.
Even if you do, you may have more flexibility owning rather than renting the Points by being able to make bookings earlier to improve your chances of getting availability especially for high demand resorts/weeks?


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## Big Matt (Oct 16, 2019)

The value is being a certain level.  You can rent points from others, but getting stays you want may be more difficult.  My level gets me 1 day 13 months out.  Stuff gets picked over once you get under 12 months.


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## csalter2 (Oct 16, 2019)

echino said:


> What's the value of owning Marriott points if you can consistently rent them from points owners for about $0.60 - $0.65 per point, which is close to the maintenance fees? Why buy when you can rent?



I have come to realize that when you look at the Destinations Program, that you have to look at it in its totality and not just through one element.  First of all I have looked at this stuff in a lot of ways to see the value of owning.  I went through the own vs rent dilemma.  However, even with the upfront cost, if you live a little bit and use the program wisely, you can really get a lot out of it.  I have gotten a chunk of money back from my original purchase just through the incentives I received. Plus, I still go own vacations.  I also see the big benefits on hotel savings being at a higher level.  You can slowly but surely get back your original purchase, but it takes use of them and time to achieve that.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Oct 16, 2019)

Renoom said:


> so i need your help. this post, along with another one from Feb 2017, has brought me to ask it here - i fall into the area between the "hey, i went to a presentation on a marketing trip and bought without knowing anything" and the "knowledgeable after doing some research" range. my wife and i have attended numerous presentations over the years, declined all of them, but finally decided to buy, and signed, last friday, for 4k points of MVC. we financed it to get discounts and the additional points offered (4k match for 8k now and 4k more at 18 months) and will pay it off after month 18 when we get our final point bonus tranche.
> 
> but in reading on this site almost exclusively since Friday pm i've learned more than i thought there was to know! we don't want to cancel our purchase - we like the idea of the MVC, the flexibility available to us, the destinations, etc, all the reasons why people buy points. but in looking at what i've learned i want/need to know more about the hybrid option and determine if it's worth rescinding and asking for something more like that. i am open to cancelling but want to keep b/c my wife and i aren't too comfortable dealing in the aftermarket resale world of p2p purchases. i like scheduling direct with MVC and leveraging the flexibility that i'd get from that thru banking points while finalizing our vacationing strategy for the upcoming year.
> 
> ...






Do you want to pay retail or pay wholesale?   If you want to save some big dollars then you may want to rescind now while you still can, and then buy off of the resale market.

Work the numbers.  I'm confident you'll make the decision that works for you.







.


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## csalter2 (Oct 16, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Do you want to pay retail or pay wholesale?   If you want to save some big dollars then you may want to rescind now while you still can, and then buy off of the resale market.
> 
> Work the numbers.  I'm confident you'll make the decision that works for you.
> 
> ...




Sometimes depending on the deal being offered the retail discounts that Marriott can offer are cheaper than resale. It all depends on the special at the time.  Remember, Marriott has been utilizing right of first refusal. Even if a person buys points resale at $3.00 per point, they still have to pay Marriott's $3.00 per point fee to enter it into Destination program.  My last purchase from Marriott was under $6.00. If I would have bought these resale I would have paid more and not gotten my valuable gifts.


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## Renoom (Oct 17, 2019)

rescinded earlier today - decided that it wasn't time for us to purchase. @HitchHiker71 helped push me past the tipping point. it needed to be done. we'll try renting at some point but, for now at least, we're postponing our purchase.

in many threads, however, i see language about how the offer will be available for us down the road. this - clearly - contradicts the hard sell that MVC does when we were told that this is a one time, yada yada, we track who you are and won't get this ever again, etc. are there real life examples of this not being the case and offers still available down the road?


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## StevenTing (Oct 17, 2019)

It's not documented but everytime I attend a presentation, I am offered a package.  Sometimes they are more generous that the previous.  In reality, you should expect all future offers to be slightly more expensive than the previous because points to increase in price.  Even with a bundle/hybrid purchase, you'll still save some money, but it's likely more than the previous time.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 17, 2019)

Renoom said:


> rescinded earlier today - decided that it wasn't time for us to purchase. @HitchHiker71 helped push me past the tipping point. it needed to be done. we'll try renting at some point but, for now at least, we're postponing our purchase.
> 
> in many threads, however, i see language about how the offer will be available for us down the road. this - clearly - contradicts the hard sell that MVC does when we were told that this is a one time, yada yada, we track who you are and won't get this ever again, etc. are there real life examples of this not being the case and offers still available down the road?



Most of the timeshare companies use that same approach.  Back of the napkin math combined with spending tens of thousands of dollars -with no cooling off period or common sense one page mathematical summary - which is required for any actual real financial transaction like a mortgage.  It's pure lunacy when you really think about it pragmatically. 

EDIT:  I just realized this thread exists in the Marriott timeshare section, so apologies in advance on using a Wyndham timeshare real life example. 

My example can serve as a real life example.  I initially bought a 126k CWA package with 174k of bonus points at Wyndham Ocean Blvd in Myrtle Beach at $155/1000 points for around 20k.  Rescinded, found two PICs, went back 30 days later via telesales, purchased 210k CWA points for $134/1000, along with 508k PIC points, and 590k of free bonus points.  I heard the same thing from the sales people, one time deal, never sell CWA this cheap ever. 

Bigger picture, sure prices go up over time, but with the corrupt sales model used, coupled with the lack of transparency on pricing and market data, you never know what an actual good deal is at the table at any one time unless and until you've done due diligence and have wised up to the corrupt sales practices.


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## csalter2 (Oct 18, 2019)

Renoom said:


> rescinded earlier today - decided that it wasn't time for us to purchase. @HitchHiker71 helped push me past the tipping point. it needed to be done. we'll try renting at some point but, for now at least, we're postponing our purchase.
> 
> in many threads, however, i see language about how the offer will be available for us down the road. this - clearly - contradicts the hard sell that MVC does when we were told that this is a one time, yada yada, we track who you are and won't get this ever again, etc. are there real life examples of this not being the case and offers still available down the road?



In your case, I feel this was a very wise move.


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## m61376 (Oct 18, 2019)

Interesting thread, with lots of great advice. In general, I think a "newbie" who posts wondering if he/she did the right thing or if it was a good price, etc., is best served by the advice to rescind immediately and then take the time to explore. Before any purchase is made, the buyer should understand what timeshares offer- both the benefits and the negatives (such as maintenance fees, time constraints for scheduling and availability, and differences from a hotel stay, etc.). We love having a larger space and kitchen facilities, but others miss room service, daily housekeeping and other traditional hotel amenities, so a prospective buyer needs to fully understand not only the costs but the difference in their actual vacation experience. 

There's a natural tendency to assume that what we like is what's best for everyone, but clearly that's not the case. In general, more options- whether it be for larger spaces, differing destinations or more flexibility in scheduling, come at a cost. I think it's in everyone's best interests to advise a new purchaser to fully understand the options and figure out what will suit their needs the best, and then make suggestions as to how to accomplish their goals at the lowest price; that said, we also need to respect that the convenience and/or security of buying direct (in this case, from Marriott) imparts a comfort level that many people feel warrants a surcharge.

So, while the OP is right that we shouldn't jump down the throats of someone who clearly has made an informed and thoughtful purchase. I do think that anyone who asks whether or not they got a good deal or made the right choice should be advised to rescind and take the time to make sure what they're doing is right for them, and almost always will be able to replicate the offer in the short term. The truly informed and confident purchaser might post what they bought, but not inquire as to whether or not they made the right purchase.

We need to remember that even those of us who consider ourselves great shoppers (and take this from a consummate shopper ;-)) will sometimes decide that sometimes it's worth paying more to buy at one place over another, whether for convenience, warranty or just being sure of the quality, and as long as the buyer is informed we shouldn't assume we know better than they do as to what's best for them.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 18, 2019)

Here's what I think is a good article on the steps to consider specific to rescission.  The site is geared toward Wyndham timeshare ownership, but it's still a good article:  http://wyndhamexperts.org/index.php/2019/10/10/i-did-the-wrong-thing-what-do-i-do-now/


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## csalter2 (Oct 18, 2019)

m61376 said:


> Interesting thread, with lots of great advice. In general, I think a "newbie" who posts wondering if he/she did the right thing or if it was a good price, etc., is best served by the advice to rescind immediately and then take the time to explore. Before any purchase is made, the buyer should understand what timeshares offer- both the benefits and the negatives (such as maintenance fees, time constraints for scheduling and availability, and differences from a hotel stay, etc.). We love having a larger space and kitchen facilities, but others miss room service, daily housekeeping and other traditional hotel amenities, so a prospective buyer needs to fully understand not only the costs but the difference in their actual vacation experience.
> 
> There's a natural tendency to assume that what we like is what's best for everyone, but clearly that's not the case. In general, more options- whether it be for larger spaces, differing destinations or more flexibility in scheduling, come at a cost. I think it's in everyone's best interests to advise a new purchaser to fully understand the options and figure out what will suit their needs the best, and then make suggestions as to how to accomplish their goals at the lowest price; that said, we also need to respect that the convenience and/or security of buying direct (in this case, from Marriott) imparts a comfort level that many people feel warrants a surcharge.
> 
> ...



‘As the OP, read my remark that is right above your post.


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## Dean (Oct 18, 2019)

m61376 said:


> Interesting thread, with lots of great advice. In general, I think a "newbie" who posts wondering if he/she did the right thing or if it was a good price, etc., is best served by the advice to rescind immediately and then take the time to explore. Before any purchase is made, the buyer should understand what timeshares offer- both the benefits and the negatives (such as maintenance fees, time constraints for scheduling and availability, and differences from a hotel stay, etc.). We love having a larger space and kitchen facilities, but others miss room service, daily housekeeping and other traditional hotel amenities, so a prospective buyer needs to fully understand not only the costs but the difference in their actual vacation experience.
> 
> There's a natural tendency to assume that what we like is what's best for everyone, but clearly that's not the case. In general, more options- whether it be for larger spaces, differing destinations or more flexibility in scheduling, come at a cost. I think it's in everyone's best interests to advise a new purchaser to fully understand the options and figure out what will suit their needs the best, and then make suggestions as to how to accomplish their goals at the lowest price; that said, we also need to respect that the convenience and/or security of buying direct (in this case, from Marriott) imparts a comfort level that many people feel warrants a surcharge.
> 
> ...


OTOH, we don't know what we don't know.  There is a current thread from someone that thought they were informed and realized they were not nearly as informed as they thought they were.  We should never jump down anyone's throat but given a negative though honest opinion can be helpful even if it's not what one wants to hear.  One should also consider the context in which the information is being provided.  Walking up to someone in the parking lot you don't know who just leased a car talking about how bad car leases are (they are) would be inappropriate but if one were on a car oriented site and posted they were consider a car lease, it could very well be appropriate to post the information.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 20, 2019)

echino said:


> What's the value of owning Marriott points if you can consistently rent them from points owners for about $0.60 - $0.65 per point, which is close to the maintenance fees? Why buy when you can rent?



Here are a few reasons why someone might want to own versus rent:

1) Rented points can't be banked/borrowed, so if you have to cancel, you could wind up with points that you can't re-use

2) There have been a couple times when I was thinking of renting points when there was nothing available on VPE for the use year I was looking for

3) If Owner Loyalty level benefits are important (like Executive Level ability to book less than 7 nights at 13 or 12 months), then you must own enough points

4) To rent points in the least-risk manner you need to own some points so you have a points account for the points owner to transfer points to. Otherwise, the points owner has to hold the reservation for you until check-in, with the risk of fraud or owner error causing your reservation to be invalid; also in this case, a cancellation would result in the reservation being lost;  - basically the same risks as renting a week from an owner.

5) Some people may ben be so uncomfortable with P2P transactions that even the small risk in a points transfer from an owner into your account is unacceptable. There have been fraudsters on VPE.

These are some of the reasons why we have chosen to own the points that we are sure we can use each and every year, and to only rent when our needs in a given year exceed this baseline dependable point need.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 20, 2019)

Renoom said:


> so i need your help. this post, along with another one from Feb 2017, has brought me to ask it here - i fall into the area between the "hey, i went to a presentation on a marketing trip and bought without knowing anything" and the "knowledgeable after doing some research" range. my wife and i have attended numerous presentations over the years, declined all of them, but finally decided to buy, and signed, last friday, for 4k points of MVC. we financed it to get discounts and the additional points offered (4k match for 8k now and 4k more at 18 months) and will pay it off after month 18 when we get our final point bonus tranche.
> 
> but in reading on this site almost exclusively since Friday pm i've learned more than i thought there was to know! we don't want to cancel our purchase - we like the idea of the MVC, the flexibility available to us, the destinations, etc, all the reasons why people buy points. but in looking at what i've learned i want/need to know more about the hybrid option and determine if it's worth rescinding and asking for something more like that. i am open to cancelling but want to keep b/c my wife and i aren't too comfortable dealing in the aftermarket resale world of p2p purchases. i like scheduling direct with MVC and leveraging the flexibility that i'd get from that thru banking points while finalizing our vacationing strategy for the upcoming year.
> 
> ...



Sorry not to reply sooner since your post last Wednesday was sort of directed at me. We were in Palm Desert and I wasn't checking the board very often.

Glad to see that others stepped in and helped you. Given your questions, I think rescinding was correct unless you were 100% sure you were buying what you wanted.

The hybrid bundles combine a resale week sold by Marriott, with a matching number of Trust points. These generally give you more useable points for less cost per point than a straight points purchase from Marriott. There are other options though, such as pure resale points, so you should read more and make sure you know what is best for you before going further.


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