# [ 2013 ] New owner to Maui Westin Villas



## D2k (Apr 6, 2013)

Hi all,

I have not read any of the stickies yet but thought I would start by posting my experience here.

I'm not sure if I can post the details of my transaction here so feel free to edit my post if needed.

I purchased just last wednesday April 3rd and was having a little buyer's remorse and found out that I have a 7 day window to cancel according to one of the stickies?

Picked up a 2bdrm LO for $36,900 (every other year starting 2015).
Included in the deal was:
- 100,000 starwood points (rewarded after 6 months or after paying 10% more down)
- $1250 credit since we were staying at the Westin resort next door for 5 days
- 4 promotions for 80,000 starwood points for ~$1550/ea (total 320,000 points available)
- one other promo I can't remember

The interested rate was at 13.9% so I plan on getting that much lower within the 180 days I have.

What I can't wrap around my head right now is the association dues of ~$1400/yr.  I knew it was there, I'm still trying to justify it right now.  I guess the lure of all those points and the fact that Maui was nearly sold out is what got me.

How does the deal looks so far?
Is paying $1400/yr worth it?
Will Starwood buy it back from me when I no longer want it and at what %?
I read a couple of the threads and people are referring to "II" which sounds like a rollover related thing.  Can someone explain?

Thanks.


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2013)

Welcome to TUG.

Rescind now. Do not wait. Do not pass go. You can always buy again from the developer if you desire in future, and the same deal will still be available. Buy only when you know exactly what you're buying and the ramifications of the purchase. Rescind now and be sure you do so exactly as defined in the documentation you received. Many here suggest faxing the paperwork and sending it overnight mail (with tracking) to verify receipt. 

That said, when you're ready to proceed:

- read the FAQ here thoroughly
- determine exactly how you are going to use the ownership (what season or week you prefer to travel, what size unit you will need, etc)
- decide where you should purchase (this will affect your annual dues, trading capability and more)
- understand the Starwood (or whichever affiliation you decide to ultimately buy into) program thoroughly prior to purchase

Basically, knowledge is key. Once you buy it will be extremely difficult to sell. And if you buy direct (as you did) you will lose at least 50% (in your case a lot more than that) the day after the rescind period ends.

Also, many here suggest not buying any timeshare on credit. It's already not an investment other than an "investment in your vacation planning" so if you pay interest as well, you'll find that it's definitely not a good decision (not to mention but 13%+ is simply ridiculous given today's common rates). 

I suggest you also check out the WKORV right of first refusal thread here, where there are relevant and recent posts on how much Starwood is paying for the week they sold you (hint: they may have earned 300%+ profit on your deal).

Good luck.


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## siesta (Apr 6, 2013)

First, welcome to tug, glad you found us in time, now, lets knock some sense into you since its not too late.

Rescind immediately. Absolutely horrible deal (and I'm not even talking about the 14% interest rate which I find unbeleivable that you bought at) You have over paid by 10s of thousands buying from the developer.  If you buy resale, you could own the same thing for a fraction of the price.

For example, a tugger just sold an annual 2br LO Ocean Front at that resort for ~$22k, yours will sell for much less.

Rescind! Dont call the resort, just follow the instructions to a T.

II is Interval International which is the exchange company you can trade your timeshare.

By the way Maui bulk banks with II, and starwood owners get a pref. period.  Therefore unless you are tied to the school schedule, it may make much more sense buying a resort with less MF and trading into Maui and not only saving thousands on the purchase price, but saving thousands on the MF

But you need not concern yourself with any of this.

Step 1) rescind

Step 2) dont buy anything, not even resale

Step 3) research and rent from owners

Step 4) make an educated and informed decision on what and where to buy, and if it even makes sense for you to own.

Step 5) pay it forward


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 6, 2013)

YIKES!  RESCIND!  Do not delay.  It is not that WKORV or WKORVN (what they are referred to on TUG) aren't great resorts (they are), but you can buy resale much much cheaper and only lose out on StarOption to StarPoint conversion (which is no way worth the high premium you paid.).  Finding TUG just saved you $$$ - feel fortunate - many do not.

$36K for an EOY!  you can buy an EY resale for half of that price and even get an EY OF resale at the south resort (WKORV) for less than that.

As others have said - do no finance a TS.  You should consider only buying (IMO) - resale - if you can pay with cash.  Plus (importantly) - you would not be able to resell until the mortgage is paid off - many get straddled with this and really stuck.

Remember the 3Rs - Rescind, Research, and Resale...


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## D2k (Apr 6, 2013)

siesta said:


> Rescind! Dont call the resort, just follow the instructions to a T.
> 
> II is Interval International which is the exchange company you can trade your timeshare.
> 
> ...



Well, glad I found you guys in time.  First order of business is to rescind I guess.  I'll read the sticky but I'm assuming there are instructions in my welcome package on how to rescind?

If I buy later from Starwood, will the bonus 100,000 points and 4 promotions at 80,000 points each still be available?

If, down the road, I decide to buy a resale, I understand that I won't be able to do certain things like convert StarOptions to Starpoints?  If I buy a Maui resale, can I still book time in a Scottsdale Villa?  What are some other things I won't be able to do with a resale?

I'm assuming I will also need to pay the seller's association dues upon buying their TS?

Also, what do "LO" and "MF" stand for?

Is there anything good at all about the "deal" I got?  Bonus starwood points/incentives?

Lastly, what is the significance of choosing a "home base" (e.g. Maui vs. Scottsdale vs some other location)?  I figure since the villas were all on the staroptions system, the only thing that could make a difference is losing out reservations to someone from a home location if you are competing for the same dates since the person with the home location can book during that 12-8m interval?

Thanks again.  I'll keep on reading.


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## DeniseM (Apr 6, 2013)

Rescinding FAQ - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74493


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## YYJMSP (Apr 6, 2013)

D2k said:


> If I buy later from Starwood, will the bonus 100,000 points and 4 promotions at 80,000 points each still be available?
> 
> ...
> 
> Is there anything good at all about the "deal" I got?  Bonus starwood points/incentives?



There's always something similar being offered by the developer as incentive to purchase from them...



D2k said:


> If, down the road, I decide to buy a resale, I understand that I won't be able to do certain things like convert StarOptions to Starpoints?  If I buy a Maui resale, can I still book time in a Scottsdale Villa?  What are some other things I won't be able to do with a resale?



If you buy WKORV/N ("Maui"), you are purchasing a Mandatory resort, which means the StarOptions follow on the resale.  Those StarOptions are what give you the ability to book at another SVO resort, starting at 8 months out.

If you buy a Voluntary resort, which means the StarOptions don't follow on the resale, you would have to use an external company, such as Interval International, to be able to exchange to another resort.



D2k said:


> Lastly, what is the significance of choosing a "home base" (e.g. Maui vs. Scottsdale vs some other location)?  I figure since the villas were all on the staroptions system, the only thing that could make a difference is losing out reservations to someone from a home location if you are competing for the same dates since the person with the home location can book during that 12-8m interval?



The other thing that applies to WKORV/N is that you have a view class (Ocean Front, Ocean View, Island View) associated with your deed.  If you book during the home resort period (12-8 months out), you will get you deeded view.  If you book using StarOptions (8-3 months out), you could get a different view, possibly better than what you own.

And there is always a chance that the property will dissociate itself with SVO, which means you could be locked in to booking at only your home resort (or a completely different set of resorts if the property joined some other club).  The general rule is to purchase where you want to stay, and treat the ability to book elsewhere as a bonus.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 6, 2013)

D2k said:


> Well, glad I found you guys in time.  First order of business is to rescind I guess.  I'll read the sticky but I'm assuming there are instructions in my welcome package on how to rescind?
> 
> If I buy later from Starwood, will the bonus 100,000 points and 4 promotions at 80,000 points each still be available?
> 
> ...



No, there nothing good about this offer.
The rescind papers should be located in your Owners Package - they should have pointed out to you.

SVO is not sticklers about rescinding (they are a professional organization after all) - other than will try and talk you out of it if you contact them.
Just follow the instructions, and do not let the 7 day rescission period pass. 

Even if you decide to buy from SVO at a latter time (the 4th R - Requalifying) you should buy resale 1st.  Requaling is an advance activity and main purpose is to get to 5* Elite as cheaply as possible.  You have a lot more to figure out before even thinking about this.

LO = Lockoff - this is what you bought (where they discussed you can separate the villas)

MF = Maintenance Fees (paid annually - and go up every year w/o the associated StarPoints (SPs) going up.

SO = StarOptions - used for SVO TS stays

You can acquire SPs (used for SPG hotel stays) by getting an AMEX SPG card.

For a SVN Mandatory resort (WKORV, WKORVN, WSJ, HRA, SVV - some phases) the only thing you lose is the ability to convert SOs to SPs - that and the ability to go thru the Elite levels (3*, 4*, 5*) - of which only 5* has really any significant value (to some), but costs $$$ to obtain, and the time and money to travel.

SVN Voluntary resorts (all the rest) - do not have the ability to use SOs in SVN (Starwood Vacation Network) upon buying resale.

Both can use II.

There are many strategies, but 2 things are true - 1) do not buy from SVO (as your 1st), and 2) one size does not fit all - meaning everyone's vacation needs and TS usage are different.

The only real truth that came from your TS salesperson is that when buying a TS you are investing in vacation.  This is important because generally TSing is for those willing to plan ahead.

SVO is a great program and has great resorts, but not for all.


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## siesta (Apr 6, 2013)

D2k said:


> Well, glad I found you guys in time.  First order of business is to rescind I guess.  I'll read the sticky but I'm assuming there are instructions in my welcome package on how to rescind?  yes there is rescind info in your package, if not, use the sticky.
> 
> If I buy later from Starwood, will the bonus 100,000 points and 4 promotions at 80,000 points each still be available? I take this to mean, if you decide later to buy from the developer? Yes that "deal" will be there, but remember it is NOT a deal, at all.
> 
> ...


answers are above in red.

Wanted to point out that david left out Westin Kierland Villas (WKV) as a mandatory resort.

Dont determine right now whether you need a mandatory or voluntary resort, you have a lot of reading to do.


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## D2k (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks all so far.

I have my rescinding documents all printed and signed and ready to go out on Monday.  That gives me the rest of the weekend to read up some more.

So let me jump ahead of myself a little bit here.

Let's say I send in this request to rescind and all goes well.  If you were in my shoes and wanted to purchase something at either a similar room benefit or at a similar price (~$35k), what are the listings out there like on the resale market?

Who sells these resales?  Starwood or another company?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the things I would "lose out" on:

- bonus starwood points and promotions
- only if I buy a mandatory resort can I transfer SO to SP? (is this the same case when you buy direct from Starwood?)

I will also take over any MF from a resale and MF goes up every year.

Am I missing anything else?  Any other disadvantages when not buying directly from Starwood?

So it sounds like the overall purpose towards rescinding a direct contract and picking up a resale is to purchase a timeshare for a considerably lower amount even though you lose out on a few small perks such as bonus SP and elite status which are not worth it anyways.  I'll keep on reading!


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## siesta (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> Thanks all so far.
> 
> I have my rescinding documents all printed and signed and ready to go out on Monday.  That gives me the rest of the weekend to read up some more.
> 
> ...


 you can find resales on ebay, redweek, and even here on tug marketplace.

Not sure why you would be looking for something in the same price range when you had to finance it at 14% ? Buy something you can afford to pay cash for.

Dont buy anything for a few months, trust me on that one.

To answer your question, only a developer purchase can transfer SO to SP, no resale can. But again, the value of this benefit isnt worth the out of pocket cost.

Only reason to buy hawaii is if you are going to consistently stay there, because the MF dont make it a cost effective trader within SVN or within II.

Only reason to buy a mandatory resort is if you need to travel during holidays or school schedule consistently or otherwise high demand periods and 8 months in advance, or for WSJ. Because if your flexible, you can still get those high demand periods via II

If you are more flexible, you can save thousands on the purchase price, and even have lower cost of exchanging in via a voluntary resort and using II.  For example, instead of pay $10-15k for WKV plati um and using the 148,100 SO for a 2br maui exchange for half the price of the maui MF, you can use the small side of SDO and get the 2br for even half the WKV MF.

It all depends on what best compliments your travel style.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> Thanks all so far.
> 
> I have my rescinding documents all printed and signed and ready to go out on Monday.  That gives me the rest of the weekend to read up some more.
> 
> ...


It's a helluva education process from here out and will take you a couple of months.
By that point you will be EEY, EOY, MF, ROFR at WKV WKORV, SBP etc with the best of them.
You need to work out what you and your family needs as a vacation ownership (school holidays, 2Br, 1Br etc) and where.   
The main factor is you are in the place where all sensible and most stupid questions will get answered, even if the response you get is read the FAQ.
Looking at questions above...
Who sells resale, well you just bought one.  At retail.  Starwood has sold out HI more than once.  They have ROFR so buy back and sell at retail again!  Unlike a used car they can sell it new more than once!  Realistically there are some good people and good sites and ebay for buying resale though.
The MF on resale == MF on developer purchase.  Nothing changes there.
StarOptions>StarPoints, the $$$ saved more than makes up for this and the 4th R, Retro (if you ever get that far is a key part of the education)


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## D2k (Apr 7, 2013)

siesta said:


> Not sure why you would be looking for something in the same price range when you had to finance it at 14% ? Buy something you can afford to pay cash for.
> 
> Dont buy anything for a few months, trust me on that one.
> 
> ...



I guess I'm not familiar with SDO yet (does that stand for Sheraton Desert Oasis?) so that last part was a little over my head but I get what you are saying (you can get Maui for cheaper than paying for Maui).  As for the 13.9%, I definitely balked at that but was going to get it down to 4.5%.  I guess you are saying that timeshares are not really a way to save money on vacation, rather, a way to spend less on a nicer vacation?



SMHarman said:


> It's a helluva education process from here out and will take you a couple of months.
> By that point you will be EEY, EOY, MF, ROFR at WKV WKORV, SBP etc with the best of them.
> You need to work out what you and your family needs as a vacation ownership (school holidays, 2Br, 1Br etc) and where.
> The main factor is you are in the place where all sensible and most stupid questions will get answered, even if the response you get is read the FAQ.
> ...




Can you play devil's advocate for me and pretend you are my Starwood agent and tell me why I shouldn't rescind the contract?
MF was my main reason for rethinking this thing over and over.  Is paying $1400/yr worth an EOY 2 bdrm LO?  That's what I kept asking myself over and over.


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## siesta (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> I guess I'm not familiar with SDO yet (does that stand for Sheraton Desert Oasis?) so that last part was a little over my head but I get what you are saying (you can get Maui for cheaper than paying for Maui).  As for the 13.9%, I definitely balked at that but was going to get it down to 4.5%.  I guess you are saying that timeshares are not really a way to save money on vacation, rather, a way to spend less on a nicer vacation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 yes sdo = sheraton desert oasis.

Any interest payments on a timeshare purchase is a waste of money. And those acronyms stand for every even year, every odd year, main. fee, right of first refusal, sheraton broadwy plantation, etc. I think there might be a link in the faq that has these listed.

If you want a devils advocate you came to the wrong place.  Go do another timeshare presentation or call the salesman for reasons why you shouldnt rescind, Im sure he has plenty


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## LAX Mom (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> I guess you are saying that timeshares are not really a way to save money on vacation, rather, a way to spend less on a nicer vacation?
> 
> Is paying $1400/yr worth an EOY 2 bdrm LO?  That's what I kept asking myself over and over.



Timeshares provide wonderful vacations with family & friends, but aren't necessarily cheap. If you want to stay at the Westin Maui once every 3-4 years, it would be much better to rent from an owner. 

If you pay $1,400 per year for an EOY 2 bedroom, it's costing you $2,800 for your week vacation or $400 per night. That is less than renting from Westin, but you are obligated for that $1,400 every year even if you don't use the timeshare. It could be a burden in the future.

Research, ask questions, figure out what will work for your family and then start looking for a timeshare option that you can afford now. It doesn't make sense to finance a timeshare purchase. Payments for 10 years on a timeshare don't help if you want to save money on vacations.


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## DeniseM (Apr 7, 2013)

You don't want to finance a timeshare.  There are many very nice timeshares on the market right now which you can pick up for cheap or free.  I highly recommend that you buy something that you can pay cash for.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 7, 2013)

Hi, I am a Timeshare salesman - the reason you should not rescind is because I will lose my large commission on your impulse buying, and my extra bonus because you are foolish enough to finance it. As the saying goes - money doesn't buy happiness - so give it to me...

Is that what you are looking for?


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> I guess I'm not familiar with SDO yet (does that stand for Sheraton Desert Oasis?) so that last part was a little over my head but I get what you are saying (you can get Maui for cheaper than paying for Maui).  As for the 13.9%, I definitely balked at that but was going to get it down to 4.5%.  I guess you are saying that timeshares are not really a way to save money on vacation, rather, a way to spend less on a nicer vacation?
> 
> Can you play devil's advocate for me and pretend you are my Starwood agent and tell me why I shouldn't rescind the contract?
> MF was my main reason for rethinking this thing over and over.  Is paying $1400/yr worth an EOY 2 bdrm LO?  That's what I kept asking myself over and over.



I will boil it down to dollars and cents from a pure financial standpoint.

You can buy SDO for less than $1000 for a 2 br lockout every year with $1050 MF per year. Locking this unit off into 2 units will allow you to have two exchanges in Interval. When the bulk deposits come up for the Westin Maui - 2 exchanges into at least a 1 br but quite possibly a 2 br for two weeks.

$1050 MF
  $124 Starwood to Starwood exchange #1
  $124 Starwood to Starwood exchange #2
    $89 II membership
--------
$1387 for two weeks in a 1 br or 2 br at the Westin Kaanapali *EVERY YEAR!*

$1387 for 2 weeks in 1 br or 2 br at an initial cost of say $1,000

or 

$1400 every year for 1 week in a 1 br at a cost of $36,900

With the $35,900 you saved, you don't have to pay any interest and no long term payments.


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## jarta (Apr 7, 2013)

> The interested rate was at 13.9% so I plan on getting that much lower within the 180 days I have.



Rescind.  If the purchase price for a TS week anywhere is $36K and you decide to or have to finance the purchase (from Starwood or any other TS seller or reseller), you have no business buying the TS.  

Not rescinding is a recipe for disaster.  Only buying TS vacation weeks for "all cash" and with "idle cash" which you can afford to lose entirely is very good advice.   Salty


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## D2k (Apr 7, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> Hi, I am a Timeshare salesman - the reason you should not rescind is because I will lose my large commission on your impulse buying, and my extra bonus because you are foolish enough to finance it. As the saying goes - money doesn't buy happiness - so give it to me...
> 
> Is that what you are looking for?



lol, not really.  My thought is the salesman would go over the fact that StarOptions cannot be converted to Starwood points, no more bonus starwood points or promotions.  I think this was covered, but if I buy a resale at WKOR, can I use those points for their other villas?  Sorry, so much information after reading all your posts and all these FAQ's.  Interval is still a beast I haven't yet read up on.


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## D2k (Apr 7, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I will boil it down to dollars and cents from a pure financial standpoint.
> 
> You can buy SDO for less than $1000 for a 2 br lockout every year with $1050 MF per year. Locking this unit off into 2 units will allow you to have two exchanges in Interval. When the bulk deposits come up for the Westin Maui - 2 exchanges into at least a 1 br but quite possibly a 2 br for two weeks.
> 
> ...



Thanks.  I think I need to look into how Interval works for me to fully understand how these exchanges work.

So even if I were to buy a resale of SDO that doesn't qualify me for StarOptions, I could still use Interval to make it work in WKORV?


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## klpca (Apr 7, 2013)

We did what you did (developer purchase) back in 2006 and rescinded a few days later after finding TUG. It took us five years to actually purchase a timeshare. All of our purchases were from ebay and Sumday Vacations, and the most that we paid for a ts was about $500, including closing costs. Most were substantially less.

Fast forward to now. Last year we bought an EOY SDO (just seeing how you're doing with the acronyms ) off of eBay and traded our large one bedroom for a two bedroom unit at WKORV for this Nov using Interval. It works great for us as we're no longer stuck with school schedules, although our most recent trade is for a 2 bedroom at Lake Tahoe at Thanksgiving, and we also traded our Palm Desert gold week for a week between Christmas and New Years at the same location. We've made multiple trades into Hawaii, and we'll be spending a week at the Four Seasons in Scottsdale in May. This is a fun hobby. 

Sure you'll miss out on some of the perks of a developer purchase but you'll have to decide how much those perks are worth to you. We don't feel that we've missed out on anything. But we saved a boatload of money thanks to the great advice we received from the people on TUG.


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## bastroum (Apr 7, 2013)

Most people buy first then learn later (myself included). You should take your time, learn everything you can about timeshare vacations and then buy. The world will NEVER run out of timeshares you can buy (or get for free). Do not finance a timeshare. Most of mine were purchased for less than $1000 and many were only $1. You can take some very nice Hawaii vacations with a timeshare you got for very little and traded through II.


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## dlca1 (Apr 7, 2013)

Another important consideration is what view type you are looking for.

Did you purchase island view, ocean view or ocean front for the 30k+?

Trading through SDO will likely result in an island view. You also need some flexibility and diligence to find the trade.

If you are happy with an island view, you can also just consider renting from owners. You can probably find something not much higher than MF

I ended up buying a SDO and am in the process of buying an annual 2 bedroom wkorvn ocean view-- all with primary purpose of going to westin Maui. If I'm lucky, that should net me 2 weeks in paradise each year. By comparison, your purchase costs at least twice as much and you end up with 1 week every other year.

Another thing I learned through tug is that it is easy to buy a timeshare and much harder to get rid of. I understand the desire to rush into another purchase. However if you can, try reading through the threads and ask questions first. 

Good luck


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## dlca1 (Apr 7, 2013)

One more thing, I only bought ocean view, but the advice around here is either buy elsewhere like sdo or platinum WKV (westin kierland) for cheaper maintenance fees. if insisting on buying at wkorv/n then buy ocean front. I've talked with some folks and people can rent their ocean front for a very nice premium

If you are trying to keep maintenance fees down, I guess you would want to avoid the deluxe rooms, which have annual MF of ~3000


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 7, 2013)

IMNSHO - I would (and did) by OF (resale) at the south WKORV resort to get a true OF view, and only if this type of view is important enough to pay a premium.  WKORVN (north resort) has too many OF types, and angled toward ocean vs. straight on.

The OFD (ocean front deluxe) villas at WKORV do have higher MFs, and the studio is on side of building, but the panoramic views and larger layout is why the higher MFs are charged (again - if that appeals to you).


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## YYJMSP (Apr 7, 2013)

dlca1 said:


> Did you purchase island view, ocean view or ocean front for the 30k+?



I suspect IV, as we were quoted $58K at a recent owner's update for an annual at WKORVN with the current owner discount...


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## Pmuppet (Apr 7, 2013)

siesta said:


> For example, a tugger just sold an annual 2br LO Ocean Front at that resort for ~$22k, yours will sell for much less.



Not trying to beat you up, but this bears repeating.  You can see the floor for buying is $22k ANNUAL OceanFront (because Starwood exercised right of first refusal).  These are THE BEST units you can get.  

It didn't sound like you bought oceanfront annual.  If you did, then your price wouldn't be too bad, IMO.  Because, you might have to pay $30k just to get it past ROFR.


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## Pmuppet (Apr 7, 2013)

D2k said:


> If I buy later from Starwood, will the bonus 100,000 points and 4 promotions at 80,000 points each still be available?



These points are just fluff that Starwood throws in that people eat up but have no value to Starwood.  To make matters worse, Starwood greatly devalued these points.  

Why you might ask, here is my hypothesis using St. Regis prince vile as my example.  First off, points don't impact there premier customers cause either these folks don't use points or only use points after staying at Starwood resorts frequently.  These are the cash cows that Starwood loves and they offer them tidbits as a treat, but these tidbits don't impact the bottom line.

Now enter "the commoners."  I consider myself in this category.  These are the folks that would stay at the st. Regis if the price is right.  But we won't pay $500/night.

Starwood encourages you to choose the "cash and points" option by making you spend many more points per dollar for completely free compared to a significant discounted rate.

Example: the previous cash and point price was 7000 points and $150 or 25,000 points and a free room (with the normal nightly rate of $500/night).  It is obvious they are trying to cover the operation costs of your room (I suspect the housekeeper cost, concierge, front desk, mgr, etc true cost per night is about $150.  Therefore, with cash and points, you are basically paying the expenses and staying at a nice resort in a room that they would NOT have otherwise rented.

The reason I say that is these cash and points are limited on the days you can use them.  Therefore, Starwood is offering a promotion that costs very little to them cause they never would have had you as a guest anyways (they are not cannibalizing sales).  AND you are paying the total cost for the room to be used.

Plus, these point systems make people foam at the mouth (I have more brand loyalty because I get great perceived deals through my points).

Sadly, Starwood greatly dismissed the value of there system in March.  Now, the exact same room costs 15k points and $275/night.  That is OBSCENE devaluation of their point system, IMO. The worst part is there seems to be NO increase (expansion) of available dates.  

So, it is a strict point/currency devaluation.  As a result, I wouldn't trust that they will be worth much in the future.  If you stumble across them, great.  But they aren't worth seeking out, IMO.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2013)

Pmuppet said:


> Therefore, with cash and points, you are basically paying the expenses and staying at a nice resort in a room that they would NOT have otherwise rented.



Well. C&P and points only rooms are easily available at many SPG properties. I don't agree with you that these are rooms they would not have rented otherwise. In my experience, SPG does a very good job of having available rooms for award usage. Many times I will see a room available I want and when I return some time later to book it's gone. We don't know if that is because another used points or c&p for it, or if it was the last standard room and a paying guest reserved it. 

I think you're making a lot of assumptions with your post that may not be entirely accurate.


----------



## Pmuppet (Apr 7, 2013)

dlca1 said:


> Another important consideration is what view type you are looking for.
> 
> Did you purchase island view, ocean view or ocean front for the 30k+?
> 
> Trading through SDO will likely result in an island view. You also need some flexibility and diligence to find the trade.



To me, the only reason to buy a Maui Westin TS is if you are confined to a school schedule (and must travel June-August) OR need an oceanfront room.

Both are valid reasons to purchase, IMO.  This assumes you buy in cash (don't finance it) and can afford $5k trips to Maui.

If not, buy a trader.  Actually, I imagine a trader is best for you.  Just because you financed the purchase (which likely means you don't have $30k sitting around burning a hole in you wallet).  Secondly, you seem hung up on points (like I find myself getting fixated on).  

These traders will get you a two bedroom unit for $800 a week.  If you like a great deal (with points) traders will do even more.


----------



## Pmuppet (Apr 7, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Well. C&P and points only rooms are easily available at many SPG properties. I don't agree with you that these are rooms they would not have rented otherwise. In my experience, SPG does a very good job of having available rooms for award usage. Many times I will see a room available I want and when I return some time later to book it's gone. We don't know if that is because another used points or c&p for it, or if it was the last standard room and a paying guest reserved it.
> 
> I think you're making a lot of assumptions with your post that may not be entirely accurate.



Because there is very limited availability at their prime properties, it leads me to believe they rarely have C&P during forecasted sold out dates (and if they do, it is an extremely small number so they can say they offer C&P everyday of the year, ie, no blackout dates)..  

If I were advising Starwood, I would advise them to do just that (why offer C&P when you can fill the room with a full price guest).

I agree that Starwood does do a good job of offering C&P most of the time.  But the hotels rarely are forecasted to be completely full.  I don't know if they have a limited amount of C&P per hotel night, or if they base their C&P availability based on room types available.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2013)

Pmuppet said:


> Because there is very limited availability at their prime properties, it leads me to believe they rarely have C&P during forecasted sold out dates (and if they do, it is an extremely small number so they can say they offer C&P everyday of the year, ie, no blackout dates)..
> 
> If I were advising Starwood, I would advise them to do just that (why offer C&P when you can fill the room with a full price guest).
> 
> I agree that Starwood does do a good job of offering C&P most of the time.  But the hotels rarely are forecasted to be completely full.  I don't know if they have a limited amount of C&P per hotel night, or if they base their C&P availability based on room types available.



If you are concerned specifically with c&p, then it's true they don't have those rooms available at all resorts all the time. They never have. It's great when they do, but I don't ever think there's something wrong when there isn't availability with this payment method. As for the recent increase in c&p rates, that's another story altogether. 

On more than one occasion, I've had to change the dates on a c&p reservation and there was no availability on the new dates (for instance, arrive a day earlier or leave a day later than expected, but keeping the same number of nights). In these instances, SPG has put me on hold and called the hotel itself for approval in modifying the reservation and I've always been able to do this. I believe the hotel determines which nights and how many rooms to offer on c&p, and that's why you may never see some hotels with this option. I've never seen SPG state that c&p is offered evey night of the year, and I don't know where you got that idea.

I think your expectations need to be more realistic if you expect c&p to be more readily available. However, I wouldn't be very surprised to find more availability at the new rates.


----------



## rpgriego (Apr 7, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I will boil it down to dollars and cents from a pure financial standpoint.
> 
> You can buy SDO for less than $1000 for a 2 br lockout every year with $1050 MF per year. Locking this unit off into 2 units will allow you to have two exchanges in Interval. When the bulk deposits come up for the Westin Maui - 2 exchanges into at least a 1 br but quite possibly a 2 br for two weeks.
> 
> ...



Quadmaniac's breakdown details the advantages of buying resale when you will exclusively use timeshare properties. I think he forgot to mention that a lock-off unit (guest room and one bedroom) can POTENTIALLY exchange into TWO two bedrooms if you know how to work the Interval International system.

Now that said, if a Starwood to Starwood Interval International trade works like a Marriott to Marriott trade you are not guaranteed a successful trade or the location of the unit if a trade is confirmed (island view vs ocean view vs ocean front).


----------



## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2013)

Pmuppet said:


> Not trying to beat you up, but this bears repeating.  You can see the floor for buying is $22k ANNUAL OceanFront (because Starwood exercised right of first refusal).  These are THE BEST units you can get.
> 
> It didn't sound like you bought oceanfront annual.  If you did, then your price wouldn't be too bad, IMO.  Because, you might have to pay $30k just to get it past ROFR.



Last reported ROFR for OFD WKORV

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1443642&postcount=127

This has increased by ~$10K from 3-4 years ago. (iirc)


----------



## D2k (Apr 8, 2013)

Pmuppet said:


> To me, the only reason to buy a Maui Westin TS is if you are confined to a school schedule (and must travel June-August) OR need an oceanfront room.
> 
> Both are valid reasons to purchase, IMO.  This assumes you buy in cash (don't finance it) and can afford $5k trips to Maui.
> 
> ...



By trader do you mean an individual or is this a broker?  If I can finance something at a low % I would rather do that and keep the money in the bank so long as my investments can beat the interest rate of the loan.


----------



## D2k (Apr 8, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Quadmaniac's breakdown details the advantages of buying resale when you will exclusively use timeshare properties. I think he forgot to mention that a lock-off unit (guest room and one bedroom) can POTENTIALLY exchange into TWO two bedrooms if you know how to work the Interval International system.
> 
> Now that said, if a Starwood to Starwood Interval International trade works like a Marriott to Marriott trade you are not guaranteed a successful trade or the location of the unit if a trade is confirmed (island view vs ocean view vs ocean front).



I guess now I am looking for a FAQ on how to use Interval if anyone has a link for me.  Thx!


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> By trader do you mean an individual or is this a broker?  If I can finance something at a low % I would rather do that and keep the money in the bank so long as my investments can beat the interest rate of the loan.



"Trader" is simply a reference to a week for trading via a trading company like II.


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> I guess now I am looking for a FAQ on how to use Interval if anyone has a link for me.  Thx!



There is an FAQ at the top of the forum.


----------



## SMHarman (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> Can you play devil's advocate for me and pretend you are my Starwood agent and tell me why I shouldn't rescind the contract?


I'll bite and give you the counterpoint, which you have had a lot of in all the points above by other wiser TUGgers but I have just gone through (whithout the recission part) the thought process so here are some of my thoughts.


D2k said:


> MF was my main reason for rethinking this thing over and over.  Is paying $1400/yr worth an EOY 2 bdrm LO?  That's what I kept asking myself over and over.


Well this MF is for a $2800 vacation every other year in HI.  HI is not a cheap place to vacation and this guarantees you a week in HI hence the cost.  As others have pointed out you can do better if you don't plan to be in HI every other year or your HI plans can be a  little more flexible.


D2k said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have not read any of the stickies yet but thought I would start by posting my experience here.
> 
> ...


Others have done the math and there is a great example at the bottom.  I think you also spoke of refinancing at 5%.  Financing a TS makes little sense as that interest is money you could be spending on a vacation.
At $36k and 5% you are paying $1800 in interest each year (that would make a nice dent in the flights costs to HI).  In addition you need to pay down the capital on the purchase, say over 10 years thats $3600 a year.  On top of that you are paying the MF.  So this is really a $3600+$1800+$1400x2), thats $8200 week of vacation and you still need to pay for the flights to get there.  This is why people go on to hate TS, you have created a $6800 a year cost in your life.  That's a lot of vacation money and not even a form of forced saving like paying down a mortgage as you don't build equity in a Timeshare.


D2k said:


> - 100,000 starwood points (rewarded after 6 months or after paying 10% more down)


That's great in that it is the maximum amount they usually dole out.  Not so great in that for a lot less effort and no $600 a month of payments you could get the Starwood Amex card and that will give you 25,000 miles (your partner could do the same).  That gets you 50,000  Spend on there or buy miles with the annual buy mile bonus if that is what you want to use miles for but it is an enticement to get you to sign that line.  Buying at full price is 3.5c each means this has about $3,500 of value.  You could equally spend $3,500 on hotel rooms on your Starwood AX card and earn another $7,000 points etc.





D2k said:


> - $1250 credit since we were staying at the Westin resort next door for 5 days


This is another way of applying their explorer package.  If you had not signed they would have offered you a package where for you paying forward a certain amount of $, say $1,2550 you could come back and book a 5 night stay with them for that money.  If you then bought they would hold the pricing they just quoted you and take this $1250 off the bill.  Again you did manage to get the offers out of them to close and this deal is about as good as the developer deal gets, thing is that the developer deal is sucky unless you yous the retro and retrade steps (at which point you are into advanced starwood timesharing).





D2k said:


> - 4 promotions for 80,000 starwood points for ~$1550/ea (total 320,000 points available)


20,000 points retail in April with the bonus offer is $525
https://buy.points.com/PointsPartne...&product=BUY&CAMPAIGNCODE=SWGetBuy&c=SWGetBuy
So each 80,000 cert is a $550 saving over that.  Again.  When do you need to use these by, with financing and MF and capital repayments this deal has you $600 in the hole to Starwood.  Do you really think you will now be using these?  In any case this is money in the bank to Starwood and with some organization, some cash and points deals from the other spending you can get on the Amex card the $1550 and the other points you are earning will get you some sweet hotels stays.


D2k said:


> - one other promo I can't remember


SPG Gold for life?  Well if you get the SPG Amex (this is starting to read like an ad for SPG Amex then spend $25k a year on it you also get SPG gold.  Put your cell bill, gas bill, groceries and other already spending it spend on there and the $25k is not hard to hit.


D2k said:


> Will Starwood buy it back from me when I no longer want it and at what %?
> I read a couple of the threads and people are referring to "II" which sounds like a rollover related thing.  Can someone explain?
> 
> Thanks.


Will Starwood buy it back.  Well they have a right of first refusal (ROFR) at that resort, they probably bought this back then resold to you.  There was a recent post on here with someone wanting to sell an IV and feeling quite dissapointed about the price a broker could get for them. 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1443990
What you bought is worth about $9k resale
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1443619&postcount=14
So the $27 extra is what you paid for the fluff of points, etc.

First you need to find a buyer, then Starwood could buy it in their stead at that price.  Starwood don't create a buyback market.


D2k said:


> I guess you are saying that timeshares are not really a way to save money on vacation, rather, a way to spend less on a nicer vacation?


Many ways it can save you money and get you more space for your money.  A bit of both but buying retail does not achieve either.  It just helps HOT's Earnings Per Share.


D2k said:


> Is paying $1400/yr worth an EOY 2 bdrm LO?  That's what I kept asking myself over and over.


Something else to learn about MF is that it is kinda the same for all units all year so your MF on your Island View is about the same as the one on the Ocean Front view, but their unit is more desirable.


D2k said:


> I guess I'm not familiar with SDO yet (does that stand for Sheraton Desert Oasis?) so that last part was a little over my head but I get what you are saying (you can get Maui for cheaper than paying for Maui).


There is a lot more analysis of this question already answered but the general guidance for Starwood is that you don't buy retail (at least until you are a senior and understand the tricks).  This means you lose the vouchers, bonus points and perma gold but can get much of that benefit back by spending the $ you saved and getting an SPG amex card.
Next up, 
1) Rent.  Your now to be rescinded plan would have had you spending $6k a year toward vacations.  Use that to rent weeks from TUGgers, or RedWeek or other rental routes (check out many TUGers My Website links in their profiles)
2) buy in one of the 'voluntary' developments.  This means you get no Star Options.  You can reserve where you bought 12 m out and in the same way your TS salesperson told you.  If you want to use an alternate destination you need to use II to make that exchange.  There is a priority treatment for Starwood > Starwood trades which is why you buy a Starwood property.  
SDO in AZ is considered a top purchase for this as it is cheap to buy $1,000 for a trader or $3-4k if you want one of the platinum units (only really necessary if you are going for advanced Starwooding and by then you can sell the GoldPlus and buy the Platinium at that time.
Another to consider is Broadway Plantation.  There is good trade demand there and now it has been refurbished MFs are coming back down to a comparable level.  Going back to they buy where you would vacation, an east coaster may consider this a better option as you can drive there.  You would want to buy a summer week though.  This buy assumes you don't want a fixed same place each year.
3) you buy at the resort you really want to go to, every year, every other year.  Many *W tuggers buy at WSJ for that reason, they have a fixed week so can easily make travel plans a year out.
4) you buy at a mandatory resort to have staroptions.  The best for this is Kierland.  A Platinum purchase is not cheap here and if you are borrowing to do this would not be recommended.  That gets you 148,000 SOs for a $1400 a year MF.  You can buy gold with 81,000 options a year for a lot less but you are still paying $1400 a year MF.  You can use these to trade into places like Maui and St John like your salesperson told you.  Theoretically that should be an easier trade than using 2) above as the availibility released to II should occur after *W has passed the 8 month mark and StarOption owners have had the opportunity to use those options.

And read up on the FAQs at the top.  There is one on StarOptions, one on Interval International, one with a list of all the acronyms, one listing the mandatory resorts.  Look on EBay at the completed auction prices.  That indicates the floor / cheapest price that many units go for (in some cases it is $1).





D2k said:


> By trader do you mean an individual or is this a broker?  If I can finance something at a low % I would rather do that and keep the money in the bank so long as my investments can beat the interest rate of the loan.


'Traders' are properties you have bought with not much intention to stay in because they are cheap to buy and own and have demand within the exchange systems.  The exchange systems assign an internal value to what you put into the sytem.  A week in July in Myrtle Beach is worth more than a week in January etc).  SDO gets this categorisation in the SVO system.


----------



## Pmuppet (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> By trader do you mean an individual or is this a broker?  If I can finance something at a low % I would rather do that and keep the money in the bank so long as my investments can beat the interest rate of the loan.



I trust that you believe you can get a low interest rate loan for the timeshare like a home mortgage (which I don't believe exist).  Yes, Starwood likely will loan you money, but the true test is go to bank or credit union that is not affiliated with the transaction.

Because your hypothesis that if you can borrow at a lower interest rate than you earn from investments is accurate ASSUMING you are measuring apples to apples.

The problem is that you aren't.  You are excluding the biggest variable when it comes to investments... RISK.

And timeshares are so risky that you can't find financing on the open market for less than 10%.


----------



## Quadmaniac (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> By trader do you mean an individual or is this a broker?  If I can finance something at a low % I would rather do that and keep the money in the bank so long as my investments can beat the interest rate of the loan.



Why would it make a difference how much the interest is if you know that the item you buy will only be worth a fraction of what you are paying the minute you buy it ? We're not talking about 20% depreciation like a car the minute you drive it off the lot, but 75% drop in value buying from the developer vs resale at Westin Kaanapali. Save your money, whether you can afford it or not, and buy a cheap resort which you can use to trade into Maui. It's cheap and you can probably pay for it all right now without any interest. There is no need to blow a wad to get the same thing for less than 5% of the cost. Doesn't make it a great investment when you look at it like that.


----------



## SMHarman (Apr 8, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Why would it make a difference how much the interest is if you know that the item you buy will only be worth a fraction of what you are paying the minute you buy it ? We're not talking about 20% depreciation like a car the minute you drive it off the lot, but 75% drop in value buying from the developer vs resale at Westin Kaanapali. Save your money, whether you can afford it or not, and buy a cheap resort which you can use to trade into Maui. It's cheap and you can probably pay for it all right now without any interest. There is no need to blow a wad to get the same thing for less than 5% of the cost. Doesn't make it a great investment when you look at it like that.


Exactly - Buying Retail $36,900
Resale value $9,000 (and you pay the broker some of that, so you would end up with say, 6,900 in your pocket when done.
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1443619&postcount=14
I see no investment that will return 400%.  Well, no sensible one will recover that $30k you give to Starwood by keeping the original deal.  81% of the original value.
If you decide a financed $9k initial investment in the same TS is what you want then so be it, but make sure you will be using it to go to Maui.


----------



## Quadmaniac (Apr 8, 2013)

One thing to mention if you do buy a cheap resort to trade into Maui, your view is never guaranteed but at that price, I am willing to roll the dice that I MAY get an oceanview or oceanfront say 50% of the time. 

I've had both happen to me :

When I got springbreak last year in a 1br WKORV, it was in building 4 on the main floor with the trees in front of our lanai as behind the trees was the walk way to the building and building three was right in front of us blocking out any light or view of the ocean. When I went in September in a 2 br WKORV, we had a nice ocean view from building 2 beside the pirate ship, on the 3 or 4th floor I believe. 

Xmas 2011 I got an oceanfront 1 br MOC vs this springbreak, I got a 1 br MOC parking lot view / golf course view. I have an island view it looks like from my confirmation for Xmas 2013 MOC studio. 

I love the oceanfront/view as much as the next person, but I am ok with rolling the dice even if I occasionally bitch about the bad view, lol


----------



## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> One thing to mention if you do buy a cheap resort to trade into Maui, your view is never guaranteed but at that price, I am willing to roll the dice that I MAY get an oceanview or oceanfront say 50% of the time.
> 
> I've had both happen to me :
> 
> ...



MOC keeps arising (which I know nothing about or need to) - However, at WKORV the likelihood of OF is slim w/o owning that type of VOI - and even slimmer having a high-floor OF.  With WKORVN - the chance of getting an OF is higher as there are many (many) more, but again getting one of the prime OF WKORVN becomes slimmer.

I know that you are saying you do not care and not going to worry if it doesn't happen (take the risk) - but for us (read Robin and I) we want that high-floor WKORV OF and why we brought OFD (resale).

As mentioned - OFD ROFR have been rising pretty dramatically (relatively) so those who bought at ~$25K (resale) are sitting pretty well (we bought ours in 2006 when still quite high) - and another issue no being discussed is rentability.  We have rented the OFD studio every year (except one when my folks stayed there) - offsetting the MFs to the point where our annual cost for the 1Bd OFD side has been $1000-$1200 per week.  just saying... many factors are involved and everyone has different needs.


----------



## Quadmaniac (Apr 8, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> MOC keeps arising (which I know nothing about or need to) - However, at WKORV the likelihood of OF is slim w/o owning that type of VOI - and even slimmer havong a high-floor OF.  With WKORVN - the chance of getting an OF is higher as there are many (many) more, but again getting one of the prime OF WKORVN becomes slimmer.
> 
> I know that you are saying you do not care and not going to worry if it doesn't happen (take the risk) - but for us (read Robin and I) we want that high-floor WKORV OF and why we brought OFD (resale).
> 
> As mentioned - OFD ROFR have been rising pretty dramatically (relatively) so those who bought at ~425K are sitting pretty well (we bought ours in 2006 when still quite high) - and another issue no being discussed is rentability.  We have rented the OFD studio every year (except one when my folks stayed there) - ofsetting the MFs to the point where our annual cost for the 1Bd OFD side has been $1000-$1200 per week.  just saying... many factors are involved and everyone has different needs.



Good to know about WKORV. For sure different things work for different people. Some will only accept the best and if you are used to it, you won't go down in view, fair enough. It is the same as we won't trade into anything that is not a premier resort on II, we won't go down in quality, nothing wrong with that.

That is part of the reason I added that portion that it is a roll of the dice and if that works for a person or not.

I can appreciate in your situation you are able to rent it out to cover some costs and recover some of the costs involved. I would say the vast majority don't make that effort to do that, even though they can and it is possible. It is the same debate on another thread about trades possible vs effort in doing a search, it all boils down to what effort you are willing to put it. If you put the effort in, you can make it work. If they are aware of that and are prepared to do that, if costs are a concern, then do it. It is all a matter of what works in who's hands. It is only of value if you can do it, just as trading has worked in my hands. Many are not willing to put the effort in and if that is the case, then they are better off just buying where they want to go.


----------



## D2k (Apr 8, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Why would it make a difference how much the interest is if you know that the item you buy will only be worth a fraction of what you are paying the minute you buy it ? We're not talking about 20% depreciation like a car the minute you drive it off the lot, but 75% drop in value buying from the developer vs resale at Westin Kaanapali. Save your money, whether you can afford it or not, and buy a cheap resort which you can use to trade into Maui. It's cheap and you can probably pay for it all right now without any interest. There is no need to blow a wad to get the same thing for less than 5% of the cost. Doesn't make it a great investment when you look at it like that.



Oh yes, the notice of cancellation is in the mail as we speak.  I need to learn how to do all this trading now.


----------



## D2k (Apr 8, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> There is a lot more analysis of this question already answered but the general guidance for Starwood is that you don't buy retail (at least until you are a senior and understand the tricks).  This means you lose the vouchers, bonus points and perma gold but can get much of that benefit back by spending the $ you saved and getting an SPG amex card.
> Next up,
> 1) Rent.  Your now to be rescinded plan would have had you spending $6k a year toward vacations.  Use that to rent weeks from TUGgers, or RedWeek or other rental routes (check out many TUGers My Website links in their profiles)
> 2) buy in one of the 'voluntary' developments.  This means you get no Star Options.  You can reserve where you bought 12 m out and in the same way your TS salesperson told you.  If you want to use an alternate destination you need to use II to make that exchange.  There is a priority treatment for Starwood > Starwood trades which is why you buy a Starwood property.
> ...



Thanks for the very helpful advice.  The specific resorts you mentioned are a big help so I will start by reading up on those.  Will definitely look into your recommendations here.


----------



## D2k (Apr 8, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> MOC keeps arising (which I know nothing about or need to) - However, at WKORV the likelihood of OF is slim w/o owning that type of VOI - and even slimmer havong a high-floor OF.  With WKORVN - the chance of getting an OF is higher as there are many (many) more, but again getting one of the prime OF WKORVN becomes slimmer.
> 
> I know that you are saying you do not care and not going to worry if it doesn't happen (take the risk) - but for us (read Robin and I) we want that high-floor WKORV OF and why we brought OFD (resale).
> 
> As mentioned - OFD ROFR have been rising pretty dramatically (relatively) so those who bought at ~425K are sitting pretty well (we bought ours in 2006 when still quite high) - and another issue no being discussed is rentability.  We have rented the OFD studio every year (except one when my folks stayed there) - ofsetting the MFs to the point where our annual cost for the 1Bd OFD side has been $1000-$1200 per week.  just saying... many factors are involved and everyone has different needs.



Sorry, but what is MOC?

OFD = Ocean Front Deed?  People were buying these outright at 425k?


----------



## Quadmaniac (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> Sorry, but what is MOC?
> 
> OFD = Ocean Front Deed?  People were buying these outright at 425k?



MOC = Marriott Ocean Club

Yes OFD is ocean front. No I don't think they were that high, more like $125K I believe was the price at the retail. I think he means $42.5K resale


----------



## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2013)

D2k said:


> Sorry, but what is MOC?
> 
> OFD = Ocean Front Deed?  People were buying these outright at 425k?



OFD = Ocean Front Deluxe - these are the OF corner villas at WKORV in B2 and B3 (24 of them at WKORV).  There are 12 OFC (OF center)

Sorry - corrected mistake - I meant $25K resale - meaning a few years ago, people were buying these at ~$25K, and now ROFR has been ~$34K.
SVO has these listed for some ridulous price (on paper) of ~$120K (!!!) - Originally were selling for ~$65K by SVO.

Quad - I did buy where I wanted to go, and bought villa type we wanted.  I was just warning that to exchange into WKORV (either by SVN or II) - the chances of getting OFD is slim, and high floor OFD is very slim (never reported... and no reports of OFC being traded into).  If you want OF WKORV - buy it.  IMO

As to renting - not only do I rent the OFD studio, but also our 2 WKV 1Bd Prem/Plat (at a profit) - this severly helps offset our annual MFs.  Also, friends go with us for 2 weeks in WSJ and EOY WPORV and pay for 1/2 of MFs - further reducing our very large MF output.  More of a hassle than figuring out II, but with correct pricing - not that hard once you do a few.


----------



## oneohana (Apr 8, 2013)

David,

We once got OFD once through SVN. Unfortunately it was the 3rd floor and looked into the trees. If you slouched down you could see the ocean from the lounge chairs. The good part is it was still a OFD and the trees blocked the setting sun.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2013)

oneohana said:


> David,
> 
> We once got OFD once through SVN. Unfortunately it was the 3rd floor and looked into the trees. If you slouched down you could see the ocean from the lounge chairs. The good part is it was still a OFD and the trees blocked the setting sun.



I think they have severely cut back those trees - 3rd floor OFD is excellent for a SVN exchange -low season? Our 1st year we were on 2nd (owner reserved for Thanksgiving), and it looked under trees (pre-trimming). Since then 5-6th pretty much. We live for sunsets and that large lanai (8.5x25sqft)


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## Ken555 (Apr 9, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> I think they have severely cut back those trees - 3rd floor OFD is excellent for a SVN exchange -low season? Our 1st year we were on 2nd (owner reserved for Thanksgiving), and it looked under trees (pre-trimming). Since then 5-6th pretty much. We live for sunsets and that large lanai (8.5x25sqft)



D&R get the best views! Sunset from WKORV top floor is amazing. Thanks again!


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## AbelowDS (Apr 12, 2013)

There's a lot of information to digest.  Maybe another example will help...

At the end of 2012, I was given (literally) from TUG members, 2 timeshare at Sheraton Vistana Resort (Orlando), and another 2 at Sheraton Broadway Plantation (Myrtle Beach).  All four units are 2BR/2BA, and all are for the best seasons (eg Platinum.)   The buyers paid the closing on all but one, so with the closing cost on that one unit, my total expense for "buying" 4 every year 2BR/2BA timeshares was about $250.

4 weeks every year - a total of $250 in up-front costs, and then about $3800 a year in maintenance fees.  But for that $3800, I get 4 weeks of 2BR condos. About $135 a night.  Or. compared to two hotel rooms, $68 a night per room.

(Oh, I forgot to mention, two of those units... the people who so graciously gifted them to me had not used their 2012 weeks, so I also got 2 weeks free.)

So far, using Interval International, I have traded one of those free weeks for a 2BR/2BA at the Westin Ka'anapali in December, and the second free week I have traded (again through Interval International) for the Kauai Westin Princeville Resort in December.  I have also traded one of my 2013 weeks for the Marriot Ko Olina on Oahu.

Three weeks in hawaii, 2BR units:

$250 up front
$0 maintenance fees for week 1
$0 maintenance fees for week 2
$960 maintenance fees for week 3 (remember, this unit did NOT come with a free week, so I am counting the 2013 maintenance fee I paid on this unit)
$417 (3 exchange fees at $139 each)
$89 for my 1 year Interval Internation membership fee
----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL FOR 14 NITES AT WESTIN AND 7 NITES AT MARRIOTT:
$82/night  or $41/bedroom

What did I give up by not being an owner who bought direct from Starwood?

I can't use Starwood's internal system for trades.  But so what? My maintenance fees PLUS Interval International fees are still much lower than the maintenance fees for a developer-purchased unit in Hawaii
I don't have staroptions.  No problem.  I have 4 weeks of timeshares to use at a low price, I don't need the points.
I won't get the rooms with the best views at the resorts I traded into, but for me that's not important
I will have some nominal charges at these resorts that I would not have as an owner (e.g., maybe parking, maybe a resort fee, etc.)
I'm sure there are other things I have given up, but I can't think of them right now so they couldn't be that important to me LOL

LESSON: Listen to everything stated above.  Figure out what's important to you, understand your different options for meeting your goals, THEN AND ONLY THEN should you consider buying (or taking some free weeks that someone graciously gives away.)


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## Pmuppet (Apr 13, 2013)

AbelowDS said:


> What did I give up by not being an owner who bought direct from Starwood?



You also gave up the opportunity to write a check for $40,000 to Starwood...

So, you were able to reallocate those proceeds ($40,000) elsewhere.  If you invest the $40k in growth stock Mutual funds, you will be able to pay your annual MF based on the average rate of return (11%)

$40k x 11% = $4,400
Taxes (15%) = $660
Net Profit= $3,740/year 

So essentially, your one time savings that a starwood owner would make buying retail can be used to fund ALL future maintenance fees.


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## Maui Timeshare Ohana (Apr 4, 2014)

*[Deleted]*

[Duplicate posts are not permitted on TUG and you original post has already been moved to this forum.]


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