# Time variations and lack of interest [Help with Wyndham][merged]



## Sandgroper (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm a newbie, just 6 months as an owner.I bought into the Beachwalk in Waikiki however I live in western australia. Well I have been attempting to check availability for oct/nov this year, just a couple of weeks, so I can show the kids how beautiful Hawaii is. Do you think I can get any support. There is a time difference of some 18 hours. Everytime I log on to Wyndham the site is closed for maintenance. I have several contacts at the Beachwalk and have asked for help. I received an email to phn this number *** that will handle international club owners. No matter when I ring I only get a message in spanish and english saying to go online.   I have contacted their quality assurance  and the main desk in Waikiki and still no replies. I must say I'm am very disappointed and ready to walk. I am now seriously considering selling this property but even then no one would reply to assist me. What does one do? Any other internationals have similar problems?


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## DeniseM (Dec 7, 2011)

The sad truth is that Wyndham points are going for pennies on the dollar on the resale market, so I recommend that you hang around with us and find out how to get the most out of your ownership.


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## antjmar (Dec 7, 2011)

Sandgroper said:


> Everytime I log on to Wyndham the site is closed for maintenance.



The site www.wyndhamvacationresorts.com  is currently running. Not sure what you are trying to do but you dont need to speak to anyone to make a reservation.


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## ronparise (Dec 7, 2011)

The wyndham site is closed every night (US east coast time) from 11:45 pm until 7am

so if its 9:45 pm here, its 10:45 am where you are (I think) and the Wyndham site will go down for the night  in 2 hours and re open 7 hours and 15 minutes later;... 6pm your time (I think)

Try it tonight after 6pm (or 7 or 8) and I bet it works for you...

Good luck mate


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## ausman (Dec 7, 2011)

As Ron pointed out the time difference for Perth? and east coast US is currently 13 hrs, Perth being ahead .

I like timeanddate.com  for the daylight savings transition times especially but it is useful for a lot of things and perhaps would be of use to you.

Anyway, you will have to steal a few minutes away while at work and just access the Wyndham site to see what is available.

You actually have a very favourable time difference.


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## Sandgroper (Dec 8, 2011)

*Thanks*



DeniseM said:


> The sad truth is that Wyndham points are going for pennies on the dollar on the resale market, so I recommend that you hang around with us and find out how to get the most out of your ownership.



Thank you for your comments, I'll keep this in mind.


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## Sandgroper (Dec 8, 2011)

*Thanks mate*



ronparise said:


> The wyndham site is closed every night (US east coast time) from 11:45 pm until 7am
> 
> so if its 9:45 pm here, its 10:45 am where you are (I think) and the Wyndham site will go down for the night  in 2 hours and re open 7 hours and 15 minutes later;... 6pm your time (I think)
> 
> ...



Appereciate your info, I'll give it a try tonight and see what happens.

avagooday.


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## Sandgroper (Dec 11, 2011)

*RCI Extra vacation Certificates.*

 I am a Wyndham owner. When I purchased our TS I received bonus certificates for RCI. The certificate seems only to be valid in certain US states. I would like to use these in Hawaii or in Asia (Phuket). has anyone had any experience using these in these locations?

Also the contact number 887-968**** doesn't say where it is? Is this eastern time, central or what as I am located in Australia and time zones are critical to know.

Thanks


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## lprstn (Dec 12, 2011)

They aren't that easy to use for prime spots/times. But call and have a variety of blocks of dates available for travel. You have to be flexible.


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## Sandgroper (Dec 13, 2011)

*Why is there no resale value?*

I bought a timeshare at Waikiki Beach Walk earlier this year,deeded and I paid cash.
I thought that this would serve as a form of investment and I would be able to recoup my money if I needed to sell.
I'm really supprised at what I see going on, people selling properties for little or nothing even giving them away. Why?
Is it that buyers take over someone's morgage payments. Or people can no logner afford maintenance fees (due to GFC) and walk away. I don't understand and feel foolish for buying now.


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## vckempson (Dec 13, 2011)

Simply put, more sellers than buyers.  More often than not, the sellers want out from under the obligation of ongoing MF's.  Even giving a timeshare away releases you from those obligations.  Ebay has also had a negative effect on valuations.  It's great for buyers but not for sellers.

Much of what you find on Ebay are sales by PCC's (post card companies), so called for sending out post card solicitations to people who might want out of their timeshares.  Ultimately people pay them, (unwisely), several thousand dollars just to get rid of them.  The pcc's then put them on ebay and will sometimes include free closings and the current year's usage to the buyer.  The pcc's have, after all, already received their profit from the upfront fee paid by the prior owner to unload it.  There's the 30 second version of what can be a long conversation.

Don't feel bad about your purchase.  Learn how to use it to your best and enjoy your vacations.  Many here paid full freight before finding tug.


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## Gophesjo (Dec 13, 2011)

Also, while a timeshare is a deeded real property interest, it is not a property interest that is truly similar to a 'wholly-owned' property ownership interest, if you will.  It is more similar to a condominium interest.  While investment in land, or a 'wholly-owned' ownership property can often be (though perhaps not since 2008) considered a reasonable investment, condominium ownership has always been considered to be a much less attractive - except in highly speculative markets - investment.  Its because what you really own and control is the right to use an interior space for a defined interval.  Alltogether too often, I think, people who buy timeshares think, "I own luxury real estate," which while technically correct, is not really like wholly owning a beach house or a house near the slopes.


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## ronparise (Dec 13, 2011)

There are several ways to value a timeshare, 

1) replacement value:  A nice condominium on the beach might cost $300 to $400 a square foot to develop and build, or about $350000. A timeshare splits that cost 52 ways so a week might be worth as much as $6000

2) income value:  If my maintenance fees  and my cost basis amortized over a number of years is less than what I might be able to rent it for, I am willing to pay for that profit potential . The problem is  you can rent a nice timeshare property for less than the maintenance fees. Which means that, from an income approach, the timeshare worth less than zero. there are exceptions and I buy some of them, but I want to rent for twice my maintenance fees and I dont like to pay more than a weeks rent, ie less than $2000.

3) market value approach: A piece of real estate (timeshares included) is worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it. When it comes to timeshares, thats not much

Now just because something is not worth much in dollars that dosent mean it dosent have value. My high school yearbook, now nearly 50 years old, has no dollar value (unless you are a fan of John Heard, the actor) but I keep it, it has value to me. Your timeshare purchace can be that way for you...Think of all the memories of great family vacations you will have years from now. 

Of course if you want a second week Id like to introduce you to ebay


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## Cheryl20772 (Dec 13, 2011)

Sandgroper said:


> Is it that buyers take over someone's morgage payments. Or people can no logner afford maintenance fees (due to GFC) and walk away. I don't understand and feel foolish for buying now.



Welcome to TUG and you are not alone.  We bought a week at a Daytona beachside resort and bought twice into Wyndham points.  Then, when we were being tempted to upgrade our Wyndham points again, we were lucky to find the forums.  Wow!  Were we feeling stupid.  We thought it wise to "invest" in timeshare rather than buy a house in Florida.  We wouldn't have to worry about maintenance or finding someone to rent it when we weren't there.  We got that part of the deal right, but the "invest" part was completely wrong!  So now we have spent some time learning how to best use what we own and learning how we may divest our selves later on, if we need to.

In today's market, someone who owes a mortgage for a timeshare; and has to get rid of it, is really in trouble.  When you have to pay someone to take a paid off timeshare off your hands, the only graceful way to get rid of a TS with a lien is to perhaps deed it back to the TS (if they will take it).  

Too many people have lost their jobs and the cost of living has risen and that's why so many are dumping their timeshares.  They can't afford the maintenance fees.  Regardless how the salesmen portray them, timeshares are a luxury product, and I believe they have sold them to too many people who couldn't really afford them at the start.

It's going to be a very long time before there is a resale value for timeshares... if ever.  We may be at the end of an era and before the next best thing evolves.  I think somethings got to radically change in this part of the vacation industry.


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## ace2000 (Dec 13, 2011)

Take a look at your maintenance fees and analyze what you've got.  

You've paid a set price to use a resort for a set amount of time for a set amount of maintenance fees (add in special assessments and other fees also).  

The market has determined the worth your ownership.  As long as maintenance fees keep rising higher than the inflation rate, the value of your property will continue to go down the drain.  Not very pleasant, is it?


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## am1 (Dec 13, 2011)

The best answer is that people buy without thinking about it.  More timeshares are then built which are sold to more people who do not think about what they are buying.

A good percentage of these people want to sell their weeks instead of how to benefit from their impulse buy.  

Developers are interested in making as much cash as they can.


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## Htoo0 (Dec 13, 2011)

A part of it may be that anyone smart enough to know to look at buying resale is smart enough to know what they're getting into. Live and learn. At least you're finding out before getting in even deeper. Timeshares work for some people or at least some can make it work.  For others it's a lasting regret. Try to make the best use of what you have. For me it's that there seems to be no control over ever rising MF's and SA's. Still, I couldn't rent for much less than what I'm paying so I'm still in the game for now.


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## prickler (Dec 14, 2011)

It cost a lot of money to dupe people into buying big ticket impulse items such as timeshares. (advertising, salespeople, freebies etc) These costs in turn get passed along to you all while the developers try and maximize profits. 

The resale market doesn't care about any of the above factors, and people who buy resale tend to be more informed about the aftermarket value. Not to mention an overabundance of supply provided by regretful owners and simple economic principles hasn't done anything to prop up prices. I think this has a lesser influence on resale value than inflated developer prices does.


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## ampaholic (Dec 14, 2011)

The rental market establishes the fact that timeshares have an intrinsic value of only $250 to $3500 per week per year. The ones on the top end of that scale may also have some investment value because of their exclusivity (WKORV comes to mind) and modest value as rentals.

The developer sales department has to add a bunch of what Realtors (R) call "Blue Sky" into the equation to induce the marks er, potential buyers to buy them at highly "stylized" prices.

To understand "Blue Sky" imagine you were a seller of drinking water. Now imagine you had the only water around and were selling it in Barstow - it would sell well and for a nice price without much "Blue Sky" added to it.

But, now suppose you were trying to sell your water in the lobby of a nice Hotel where there were drinking fountains and cafe's all about - it would be much harder to get a good price as most potential buyers would just drink at the drinking fountain or at a cafe' and say no thanks to your offer.

But, now imagine you had some screens painted with scenes of  blue sky and placed them in front of all the water fountains and cafe's entrances - and suppose you gave the people around free salty snacks and ra ra about how great you water was and "PRESTO" - you are Diamond, Marriott, Hilton or Starwood etc. and the water is moving out just fine.

Now eBay, TUG et al come along and knock over some of your blue sky screens - sales slow but don't stop. Your next move is to convince all involved that the water fountain or cafe' water just plain isn't as good as yours ---- and thus you get ROFER and "no VIP" and "no Staroptions" etc.

--- bottom line - a carrot or a clock, or a car or a timeshare are "worth" just exactly what you can get out of each. With manipulating the market you can often get more, with really smart manipulation you can get *a lot *more.


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## Carolinian (Dec 14, 2011)

There are several problems:
1) If you made a developer purchaser, the developers marketing costs likely exceeded 50% of what you paid, so what you really paid that represented the value of the timeshare was a lot less than you thought.  Of course, that is not the case with a resale purchase.
2) The resale market is generally not well organized.  In some places, demand does allow for decent resale prices, although never equal to what a developer charges.
3) RCI's mass move into rental of exchange deposits to the general public has hurt the timeshare market in a variety of ways.  It has flooded the rental market driving down prices there.  It ended the exclusivity concept, long promoted by RCI founder Chrystal deHahn, where someone had to own to participate.  Now Joe Sixpack can do a one time rental at a cheap price through RCI, so why should he bother to buy.  That has hurt the resale market.  It has also made the good exchanges people used to get harder.  A reseller in the eastern US told me that in recent years people listing there weeks for sale now frequently mention the perceived changes in service from RCI as the reason for getting out, and that was something she used to almost never hear.  A reseller in the UK posted on a UK timeshare board that these days most of his buyer were looking for a specific week or time period at a specific resort to buy to use, and those who bought to exchange were increasingly rare. A major timeshare developer complained at the Timeshare Stripped Bare conference in the UK last year that RCI's rental policies were not only hurting his developer sales but also hurting their member retention.
4) The current economic climate


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## timeos2 (Dec 14, 2011)

What Carolinian said with a change to the RCI Rentals part. Yes they have hurt but they are far from the MAJOR mover in lower rental / resale values. It is eBay, the general glut of inventory and the Internet making timeshares far more well known and available than 15-20 years ago that have done that. 

There was once a bit of a "safe-haven" in the brand names which carried a supposed - but often not real - impression of superior quality.  That bit of extra value has more or less been lost by the premium price the annual fees as those ownerships carry the overhead of that "name" (15-25% of the total fee) that hits the owners EVERY YEAR!  That, plus a tendency toward Developer control of the Associations - another big hit for higher costs - means the value proposition of owning those vs renting has basically killed resale value there too.  In fact it is a rare, special resort / time/ view that can command even the now near maximum value of any timeshare (approx $5,000). The purchase cost is nothing - it is the ongoing fees that are the real cost of ownership.  No one that has done any study will pay a premium purchase price when all it actually buys is the obligation to future fees - even on resale. 

Someone said the era of timeshares as an option for any type of even limited gain or rental income has come and gone.  The glut of inventory for both resale and rental isn't going away soon and maybe never will.  

Right now the only real value is an inexpensive to free purchase price and annual fees low enough to represent a value for vacationing (not rental not trade).  Otherwise look to timeshare rentals as the real value that also carries no long term commitment to rising fees as any ownership does.

Thee is little to no hope resale prices will ever rise but a very real chance they will fall even more for most resorts / times.


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## persia (Dec 14, 2011)

While it's true a lot of timeshares are less than worthless, not every timeshare has followed Wyndham into the dumpster.  Trendwest, Wyndham's sister company, has some value, as does Disney.  But you need to do your research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Wyndham used to command the princely sum of $5 to $10 a thousand, far less that the $150 to $200 that it costs from the developer, but more than zero.  Then the decided to start taking away things, no VIP on resale, no renting to or from others, fewer, more pricey guest certificates, less trade value in RCI.  It was almost as if they were trying to see how far they could go before the resale value on their timeshares was zero.  And they found out.....


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## Carolinian (Dec 15, 2011)

eBay used to be a decent place to sell timeshare.  For several years, while I was 1st VP of my HOA, part of my responsibility included HOA resales.  We used eBay a lot and got decent prices.  Blue weeks almost always sold and generally in the $200 to $500 range.  White weeks went $800-$1200 and red weeks (always pink in reality - we never got prime red back) over $2,000. Then we closed down for a hurricane and were off the resale market completely for 8 or 10 months.  When we went back, we found that there had been a sea change at eBay.  The difference was that the PCC's had become more active and were dumping inventory in much larger numbers on eBay.  Prices had crashed and sales were no longer a sure thing.  We quit using eBay as a resale venue.

Fortunately, eBay is only a tiny percentage of the timeshare resale market, and we sought out other venues for resale.  Today, eBay is much lower in the prices it brings than other resale venues.  When I was active in this area, blue week listings with the local timeshare specialist broker generally brought $100, while we could sell the same week on eBay easily for more than twice that, but that has all changed as to eBay, thanks to the PCC's.  The local broker prices remain the same.




timeos2 said:


> What Carolinian said with a change to the RCI Rentals part. Yes they have hurt but they are far from the MAJOR mover in lower rental / resale values. It is eBay, the general glut of inventory and the Internet making timeshares far more well known and available than 15-20 years ago that have done that.
> 
> There was once a bit of a "safe-haven" in the brand names which carried a supposed - but often not real - impression of superior quality.  That bit of extra value has more or less been lost by the premium price the annual fees as those ownerships carry the overhead of that "name" (15-25% of the total fee) that hits the owners EVERY YEAR!  That, plus a tendency toward Developer control of the Associations - another big hit for higher costs - means the value proposition of owning those vs renting has basically killed resale value there too.  In fact it is a rare, special resort / time/ view that can command even the now near maximum value of any timeshare (approx $5,000). The purchase cost is nothing - it is the ongoing fees that are the real cost of ownership.  No one that has done any study will pay a premium purchase price when all it actually buys is the obligation to future fees - even on resale.
> 
> ...


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## persia (Dec 15, 2011)

@Carolingian

Does that mean there are places where worthless (by eBay standards) timeshares still have value?  Can you actually sell Wyndham points and walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket?  Let us in on the secret.


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## tombo (Dec 15, 2011)

persia said:


> @Carolingian
> 
> Does that mean there are places where worthless (by eBay standards) timeshares still have value?  Can you actually sell Wyndham points and walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket?  Let us in on the secret.



On a few sites other than e-bay you can RARELY find a buyer who doesn't know about e-bay or is scared to buy from e-bay who will pay more than you can sell it for on e-bay. Those buyers are dinosaurs and are a breed soon to be extinct. My 80 year old father and mother surf the internet.

 If you own a week you no longer want, turn down no offers from any buyer no matter how ridiculous you think it is because it might be your only offer. If you are buying make sure it is an obligation you are willing to take on for years to come because these things are real easy to buy but very hard to get rid of.


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## Carolinian (Dec 15, 2011)

persia said:


> @Carolingian
> 
> Does that mean there are places where worthless (by eBay standards) timeshares still have value?  Can you actually sell Wyndham points and walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket?  Let us in on the secret.



Most people who largely shop online will look at eBay, so your best bets are offline.  One Tugger had success in putting up notices on a for sale board at a local Mexican restaurant.  In selling personal timeshare weeks, I have had success with print ads in local shopper type papers in the travel range of the timeshare.  Brick and mortar timeshare brokers actually in the area also can produce good results in some areas.  Our HOA, with, of course, multiple weeks to sell, did a table at a local festival in the same county as the timeshare.

Buyers are less likely to buy to timeshare to exchange these days.  The best bet for a sale is one that people will buy to use.  We did marketing of our deep off season weeks to duck hunters as deep off season for timeshare coincides with duck hunting season and there are a big group of duck blinds a few miles away.  Some other HOA's have concentrated on selling resales to locals who buy to use the resort facilities yearround.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 15, 2011)

I always check the TPU before buying a resort, one of the driving factors for ME for buying a lock-off was that, on the off years i don't need one of the sides, i could trade the other

I thought thats why everyone buys lock-offs?


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## Carolinian (Dec 16, 2011)

The best example of a timeshare that has always had a good resale value is the very first timeshare developer, Hapimag, which has a mini-system with around 60 resorts, mostly in Europe.  Hapimag does not trade with RCI or II, but has trading relationships with DRI and DAE.  Since its inception, Hapimag has always had a developer buyback program.  Ownership is based on stock ownership rather than a fractional deed, and after owning a certain number of years (4?), an owner can have his shares repurchased by the developer at a decent percentage of the develooper's then selling price (80%).  The result is that you never see Hapimag selling for one dollar, or one Swiss franc or one euro on eBay.

It is too bad that developers which came after Hapimag did not copy this part of their program.


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## ace2000 (Dec 16, 2011)

I'll post my regular mantra here .  It boils down to the maintenance fees vs. the potential rental income.   Maintenance fees (and SAs) have increased so rapidly over the past decade that the fees are higher than the potential rental income.  Why would anyone buy real estate when they can't even rent it out to cover the costs involved?  

The market is saying that the timeshares are not worth owning for the fees involved.  That's why so many are worthless today.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 16, 2011)

For me the Value in TS has been the size of the rooms and the cost involved...

BUT with raising MF's, if i can get two hotel rooms for less then a 2br TS, the value just isn't there for me...My break even point has always been $100 a night, i figure in most places, a decent hotel room is going to cost me $50 a night so getting two is $100, if my TSing starts costing me over $100 a night, i'm going to seriously reconsider hotel rooms


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## Beefnot (Dec 16, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> i figure in most places, a decent hotel room is going to cost me *$50* a night so getting two is $100, if my TSing starts costing me over $100 a night, i'm going to seriously reconsider hotel rooms



Apparently, we have wildly divergent views of what a decent hotel room runs for these days, even outside of California.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 16, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> Apparently, we have wildly divergent views of what a decent hotel room runs for these days, even outside of California.



haha! Your right, i really phrased that completely wrong...

Decent hotel room should have said...Any place i'm not worried about getting shot or catching some diseases from the sheets....the cheapest, room that i'd still be willing to sleep in


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## persia (Dec 16, 2011)

I've seen people take longer to debate a choice of a $500 TV than a $20K time share.


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## Picker57 (Dec 20, 2011)

Htoo0 said:


> A part of it may be that anyone smart enough to know to look at buying resale is smart enough to know what they're getting into. Live and learn. At least you're finding out before getting in even deeper. Timeshares work for some people or at least some can make it work.  For others it's a lasting regret. Try to make the best use of what you have. For me it's that there seems to be no control over ever rising MF's and SA's. Still, I couldn't rent for much less than what I'm paying so I'm still in the game for now.



A "retail" timeshare purchase is one of the WORST items with which to play "woulda-coulda-shoulda".  Like many, we bought from the developer (in this case, Shell Vacations Club) before discovering TUG.  Certainly we regret paying that kind of money (fortunately there was no mortgage involved, as that becomes the second bullet).  But we do NOT regret getting into timeshares. We've had some great vacations in great locations. Thanks to TUG, TS4MS, and some other sites we're discovering many ways to leverage our points and gain additional vacation time.  The purchase money is gone - get over it. The next step is learning how to gain maximum use and joy from your purchase.  

Happy holidays and a beautiful 2012 to the TUG community. 

          ------------Zach


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## artringwald (Dec 20, 2011)

In 2004 we bought a timeshare from the developer at the Point at Poipu. The next day I stopped by the Timeshare Resales office in Koloa Town and found out we could have bought it for 1/3 the price. We canceled the contract, but the developer threw in more freebies and talked us back into it. I know we paid too much, but didn't regret it because we wanted to make sure we could get ocean front reservations the next February. Wish we had know about TUG, but it took another 7 years before we discovered this site. As George Bernard Shaw said "A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."


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## GardeningPro (Dec 20, 2011)

*Isn't there something we can do about rising maintenance fees?*

I purchased my timeshare 11 years ago and every year the maintenance fees have increased to the point now where it no longer makes sense for me to pay them. When I pencil out the value of the timeshare - which as many have said here you can't realize by selling - and factor in the maintenance fees which really are higher than what I would pay if I went to a hotel for the week - it makes no sense to keep this. 
What I find strange is that as a group we should be able to get some type of court ruling on the legality of the rising costs. A class action suit in my mind is what is in order as the bulk of the maintenance fees go to paying employees and sales people that work for the group selling the timeshares. I am at the point where I will just not pay and lose it.  Thoughts and ideas welcome!


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## DeniseM (Dec 20, 2011)

GardeningPro said:


> A class action suit in my mind is what is in order as the bulk of the maintenance fees go to *paying employees and sales people that work for the group selling the timeshares*. I am at the point where I will just not pay and lose it.  Thoughts and ideas welcome!



I feel your pain, but this is not correct.  The maintenance fees do not go into sales or the developer - the maintenance fees go back to the resort, which is managed by the board of directors, who represent owners at the resort.  

Sales makes their money off of sales - not maintenance fees.

If you stop making your payments, you won't just lose it - they will turn you over to collections and report you to the credit bureaus, and it will damage your credit rating.  Eventually they will foreclose, but they will still rake you over the coals first.

When you look at the cost - are you comparing it to renting a full-sized timeshare in the same location, or to renting a hotel room?  Comparing a timeshare to a hotel room is really an apples to oranges comparison.

If it's paid off and you just want out, consider giving it away - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132509


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 20, 2011)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




GardeningPro said:


> A class action suit in my mind is what is in order as the bulk of the maintenance fees go to paying employees and sales people that work for the group selling the timeshares.


Running a timeshare resort & selling timeshare units are 2 completely different things, handled by 2 separate organizations -- even when resort management is still controlled by the timeshare-selling company. 

Timeshare maintenance fees have 3 components -- (a) operations & maintenance & (b) real estate taxes & (c) reserve funds.  Nothing for selling timeshares or paying the sales staff or advertising or any of those timeshare-selling functions.  The homeowner association runs the resort & collects the fees & pays the check-in staff & the maintenance people & the housekeepers who clean the units in between tenants.  

The HOA does not sell timeshares.  The HOA is a separate entity from the timeshare company, even when the timeshare company still owns most of the units & therefore still controls the HOA. 

Once most of the units at a resort are sold, it is possible for the majority owners to vote out the timeshare company members of the HOA-BOD & replace those with independent, owner-oriented BOD members.  That doesn't alway happen, not even when a timeshare resort is sold out, but it _should_ happen just to make it crystal clear all round that operation & maintenance of the timeshare resort itself is _mox nix_ with regard to the timeshare company's profit-loss statements. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## chalee94 (Dec 20, 2011)

GardeningPro said:


> I am at the point where I will just not pay and lose it.  Thoughts and ideas welcome!



i'll add that in addition to likely harming your credit rating, your unpaid debt will be harming the other individual owners at that resort (not the sales staff or some faceless corporation) who will become responsible to take up your slack. 

i hope you'll at least make an effort to sell or give away the timeshare rather than simply add to the obligation owed by other individuals.  you made a commitment to accept responsibility for those payments, so deal with it rather than simply walking away.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 20, 2011)

chalee94 said:


> i'll add that in addition to likely harming your credit rating, your unpaid debt will be harming the other individual owners at that resort (not the sales staff or some faceless corporation) who will become responsible to take up your slack.
> 
> i hope you'll at least make an effort to sell or give away the timeshare rather than simply add to the obligation owed by other individuals.  you made a commitment to accept responsibility for those payments, so deal with it rather than simply walking away.



Those owners are also the people who determine the MF's....Maybe if enough people walk away because of the ridiculous MF's the HOA's and POA's will start doing their job and shop around to lower the MF's or start an internal program to help people sell their unwanted weeks....If everyone just says "Theres nothing i can do, no matter how high they raise the fees" there's nothing to stop them from tripling the fee every year

I still recommend using a "Viking Ship LLC" PCC before ending your life with a foreclosure though


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## DeniseM (Dec 20, 2011)

Ride - you are exaggerating!  Tell me one resort that has tripled their fee!

Yes, fees are too high at SOME resorts, but statements like that are completely misleading.

Besides, we don't know where GardeningPro owns or what his maintenance fee is.  Since he is comparing his maintenance fees to renting a hotel room, that's not exactly a realistic comparison.


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## ace2000 (Dec 20, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Ride - you are exaggerating!  Tell me one resort that has tripled their fee!
> 
> Yes, fees are too high at SOME resorts, but statements like that are completely misleading.
> 
> Besides, we don't know where GardeningPro owns or what his maintenance fee is.  Since he is comparing his maintenance fees to renting a hotel room, that's not exactly a realistic comparison.


 
Between 2005 and 2010, ARDA reported that maintenance fees have risen over 12% per year on average.  It would take about 6 years for your current fees to double at that clip.


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## DeniseM (Dec 20, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Between 2005 and 2010, ARDA reported that maintenance fees have risen over 12% per year on average.  It would take about 6 years for your current fees to double at that clip.



Yes, but that's not what Ride said:





> there's nothing to stop them from tripling the fee *every year*



I agree that maintenance fees are a problem - but it isn't helpful to exaggerate the problem.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 20, 2011)

> "It takes a very specific mix of Fear, exaggeration and profit to motivate the masses, it is through these emotional responses that true change to behaviour can occur"



Just trying to save Timesharing


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## MOXJO7282 (Dec 20, 2011)

artringwald said:


> In 2004 we bought a timeshare from the developer at the Point at Poipu. The next day I stopped by the Timeshare Resales office in Koloa Town and found out we could have bought it for 1/3 the price. We canceled the contract, but the developer threw in more freebies and talked us back into it. I know we paid too much, but didn't regret it because we wanted to make sure we could get ocean front reservations the next February. Wish we had know about TUG, but it took another 7 years before we discovered this site. As George Bernard Shaw said "A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."



In know when I bought direct in 2004, a Marriott Oceanwatch, the last of my direct buys, the freebies you mentioned added up to quite a bit and resale prices then were much higher so I'm sure the overpayment you mention is nothing compared to more recent direct purchases.

Just like the housing bubble, shortly after 2004 pricing continued to rise and developers were dropping incentives yet people were still buying. These are the ones really holding low/no value properties. Anyone who purchased before 2004 at least got some nice incentive value, I know I and many Marriott owners who bought direct did.


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## timeos2 (Dec 20, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Those owners are also the people who determine the MF's....Maybe if enough people walk away because of the ridiculous MF's the HOA's and POA's will start doing their job and shop around to lower the MF's or start an internal program to help people sell their unwanted weeks....If everyone just says "Theres nothing i can do, no matter how high they raise the fees" there's nothing to stop them from tripling the fee every year
> 
> I still recommend using a "Viking Ship LLC" PCC before ending your life with a foreclosure though



Have you ever actually sat on a Board for a timeshare (or condo) and looked at the numbers involved? If you have then you'd know why, just like at your home but with the added expenses of huge common elements and staffing not even the richest would support for hundreds of individual "homes" with a new owner / occupant each week, costs go no where but up. 

It is unfortunate that the glitzy sales folks milking buyers for thousands over the market value don't play up those annual costs like they do the units and resort features that have buyers drooling. Only after those sales folks are long gone and things are turned over to those same owner buyers do they find out just how much it really costs to have a weekly greeting party in the many pools / hot tub/ recreation areas they must maintain or shut down and the costs of staff and roof replacements and worn out furnishings that would last a lifetime in a well maintained home but buckle under the abuse of 4-7 years of tough wear and tear in a timeshare. And have you heard of taxes going down? Nope.

There are really only two choices. Maintain and improve the property to the standards that people bought at as low a cost as you can or don't pay much and slowly watch as the property falls on hard times and becomes worthless even for those that want it (but the fees are low!).  

Annual fees on a well run property are the best value an Association can get for it's owners. They don't have 10-15-20%+ overhead to a corporation as fixed expense or sweetheart deals with vendors or staff. They operate as tight as they can with virtually every dollar going toward betterment of the property and growing "wish lists" of things they would love to have but can't afford / justify.  They are basically homeowners with hundreds of homes to maintain and furnish - not one.  

While I certainly know there are resorts & groups that may well be ripping off the owners for far too much in fees that is not the norm.  With a little work you can find those that may not have the lowest fees but they won't be the highest either and see a resort that is well cared for and a pleasure for owners to enjoy.  If you don't think resort X meets that criteria then don't buy it or sell it if you own.  The resorts are what the owners make them and that includes the level of fees vs quality they demand.  Buying or dumping legally is the owners right.  Walking away or crying fowl by blaming the resort or the Association for bad buys owners made is a cop out.  

You bought it and you owe until you properly sell / give it away to a legitimate new owner.  If it's so bad then do something to fix it or find someone that sees a value in it just as you would with any real estate or car or other large purchase.  It isn't up to the other owners to pay for your bad choice. Deal with it.


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## lindner (Dec 20, 2011)

*the future*

I think it was Ron Parise who said it best on another thread.  Eventually the market will turn and quality timeshare will have resale value once again (forget about blue weeks in Iowa!).  Think about it from a developers point of view.  You are in business to sell timeshare for maximum profit.  If you have a choice of building a new condominium for $300000 and then selling it in 50 pieces for $600000 after marketing expenses are deducted (making a profit of $6000 per week), or buying resale for $1 and reselling for $12000 per week, which would you do?  It was Ron's point that the reason this is not happening now is that so many people have walked away and the resorts are flooded with foreclosed units (essentially free).  Until these units work through the system, the resort will not turn to the next cheapest source, which is resale.  However, in a few years, I would agree with Ron that the market will turn for quality timeshare.  A contrarian will argue that now is actually a good time to invest, provided you can rent and cover your fees and provided you choose choice properties.

I also think that many cases of rising maintenance fees are simply that the resort was putting too little away for reserves and thus had to catch up to reality.  Some of the big guys (Bluegreen and Sheraton are ones I own) have actually increased not that much over the past few years.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 20, 2011)

I know this isn't going to make sense to people after my last post, but....Thank you for posting this timeos2



timeos2 said:


> Have you ever actually sat on a Board for a timeshare (or condo) and looked at the numbers involved? If you have then you'd know why, just like at your home but with the added expenses of huge common elements and staffing not even the richest would support for hundreds of individual "homes" with a new owner / occupant each week, costs go no where but up.
> 
> It is unfortunate that the glitzy sales folks milking buyers for thousands over the market value don't play up those annual costs like they do the units and resort features that have buyers drooling. Only after those sales folks are long gone and things are turned over to those same owner buyers do they find out just how much it really costs to have a weekly greeting party in the many pools / hot tub/ recreation areas they must maintain or shut down and the costs of staff and roof replacements and worn out furnishings that would last a lifetime in a well maintained home but buckle under the abuse of 4-7 years of tough wear and tear in a timeshare. And have you heard of taxes going down? Nope.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Dec 20, 2011)

The key to controlling m/f is having members, not the developer or management control the HOA.  One thing I always look at in considering whether to buy at a resort is who controls the HOA, and I will not buy unless it is member-controlled.  Developers too often see m/f's as cash cows waiting to be milked.

Another thing that doesn't hurt, although it is a rather uncommon situation, is having the annual budget submitted by the HOA BOD to the membership at the annual meeting for a vote.  Some HOA's on the OBX do this and it is and added check on management.


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## LannyPC (Dec 21, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> It is unfortunate that the glitzy sales folks milking buyers for thousands over the market value don't play up those annual costs like they do the units and resort features that have buyers drooling.



But they seem to play up the costs that a hotel will cost you 5, 10, 15 years down the road.  Somehow, they have this psychic power knowing that hotel costs will mercilessly double each year making it a long-term bargain to invest $15000 in a "new" timeshare.


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 21, 2011)

*Watch To See If Their Lips Are Moving.*




LannyPC said:


> But they seem to play up the costs that a hotel will cost you 5, 10, 15 years down the road.  Somehow, they have this psychic power knowing that hotel costs will mercilessly double each year making it a long-term bargain to invest $15000 in a "new" timeshare.


Trouble is, it's right about then that the timeshare sellers pretty much skip over the issue of maintenance fees, trying hard as they can to plant the idea that timeshare ownership means prepaid vacation accommodations that lock in future vacations at today's costs. 

_Balderdash !_

Cost of timeshare acquisition -- high, low, even _el freebo_ -- means nothing & locks in nothing (other than the obligation to keep on paying those ongoing maintenance fees forevermore, amen). 

Timeshare maintenance fees are apt to go _up-up-up_, same as hotel rates -- & plenty of'm have jumped way up. 

Just 1 more reason, when taking the timeshare plunge, not to pay 1 nickel more than necessary for the deed -- because the real costs are the ones that  keep piling up year after year after year regardless of how much or how little you pay at the outset. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Dec 21, 2011)

And of course the "new timeshare" buyer assumes, incorrectly but never corrected by sales, that the purchase price money goes to the resort. Not one penny does.  So while the buyer and owners Association get the benefit of the initial construction paid for by the developer - the physical resort which may or may not be built 100% to codes, actually have all the promised features/amenities and that starts to deteriorate the moment it is finished - they don't get a dollar to improve or maintain it. Every cent of the purchase price goes to the developer to repay them for the construction, the risk they took, the 50%+ sales overhead and, most important of course, what they plan to be a hefty return (profit).  

Nothing wrong with that IF you understand how it works. It is never explained by the sales folks and in fact the distinct impression given is that somehow you have now got a virtually free pass to enjoy the beautiful facilities for life based on this one time payment.  WRONG. Far too many new buyers don't take the time to see that there is an annual fee involved and that they have just signed an agreement to pay it until they find another taker down the road. 

Most new buyers leave with the impression that they got "a deal" because, like a home at least used to do, what they pay today will increase in value and besides they are getting a "discount" from the incredibly inflated (but unknown to them) retail price/value their ever-so-friendly sales weasel is roping them into.  

What a shock when that bill for hundreds shows up the first year and they find out their $30K purchase isn't worth $100 on the true open market.  Yet the game goes on now featuring not the ourchase of a week of timeshare in most cases but a far more nebulous "club" or trust or plan that will give you thousands of resorts and virtually unlimited travel opportunities for "only" $30K +/-!  Of course it's all phantom promises, even more costs and often times not even a real deed but just a membership that can be taken away with a single missed payment. 

Wow. What some folks won't buy into with zero knowledge of the real product they are plopping down tens of thousands to a stranger "friend" they met 90 minutes ago.  And these types of purchases often can't even be resold so the moment the rescind period ends you effectively have nothing but the limited potential use for all those dollars. I don't know how they can sell it but they sure do.


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## Signs (Dec 21, 2011)

*No Resale Value?*

I admit, timeshares for the most part do not have much of a resale value.  They are valued on what you get out of them, and can be the best vacation value you can find anywhere.

About 30 years ago I bought a piece of land in the mountains to have a vacation home.   Now for someone that did this, you need to read what I am saying.  

First the land only cost $7000 for 7 acres of land.   I had to have the lot cleared that cost me about $1000 at that time to place the home site.  (1 Acre).  After that I had to get water and a septic.  I got a deal of only another $7,000.  I then had to pay to get electric to the property.  That was only $300.  I still had no structure, so I put a mobile home on the property.   That  cost me only $8000 at that time.  Finally the first vacation, a year later.   Well I had to buy a riding lawn mower to cut the grass.  Another $700.   
Can anyone see where I am going with this?

Well needless to say the property was only about 4 hours away.  A nice get away anytime, except for a few problems.  I had to pay the electric bill every month.  I had to either mow the grass myself or have to pay someone else to cut it.  I had to worry about power outages, and if there was one, uh-oh my water lines could freeze unless, I drained the water every time I left.   Needless to say after owning the property for 5 years I was beat.  It was not a vacation or a weekend get-away anymore, it became a chore.  Every time we visited it was a weekend or week of work.  We continued.  No swimming pool.  Laundry had to be done, and really no place close to visit anymore.  (We had visited everything we wanted to see in the area).

Now after 5 years, the mobile home needed work.  Another $2000, just because it was not inhabited very often.  So up went the for sale sign.

 Needless to say after another 5 years we sold it, for $20,000.  What a relief. 
Now we owned this property for 12 total years, and it cost about $1000 a year just for upkeep.   Need not mention the rodents and snakes.  Our dog got bit from a Copperhead snake and died in the vets office.  

Now do the numbers for a vacation home yourself.  Even if you have a location you can rent out, still a whole lot of maintenance has to be performed, and people do not think of this.  And when you rent it out, you cannot use it for that time it is rented.  

Now when my wife and I received the free vacation thing in the mail for the weekend, we had no idea at that time that we would buy a timeshare.  Yes we were lied to, and got ripped off.  That was 12 years ago.  We went to our 2 bedroom lock out every year.  Watched the maintenance fees go up every year etc... (From less than $500 a year to close to $800 a year now). It is a 2 bedroom lockout. Plus we were paying $325 a month for the mortgage.    Well last year we paid it off early.   

Now some advice to anyone that does not want a timeshare you are not clearly thinking.  They are well worth the money.  Our timeshare is in a prime location on the beach.  We can easily rent it out for at least twice the cost of the yearly maintenance fee.  We also belong to Interval International and get is many getaways to almost anywhere in the world, any time of the year.  We go to places off season, or close to off season.  But what a deal.  No worries.  No grass to mow, no upkeep and on and on.  

The only regret I have is that Tug did not exist at the time we bought our timeshare.  And who knew about Ebay?  

Now a timeshare is the same is buying any real estate.  Location, location, location.   Also, time of year, and how far you live from it.  I suggest that you buy a timeshare in a high value location that is less than a days drive from where you live, this way you can and will use it.  I really say 4 hours away.  You can have a vacation at a well reduced rate every year, even for the years you may not be able to afford much for a vacation.  I think we have all been there.

If you think you are going to save money by buying one in the middle of nowhere with a low maintenance fee, you will not be happy.   These are the places you can go to with the getaways.  
Get a timeshare that has a lockout, so you can rent the lower valued unit for at least the cost of the maintenance fee. 
Get a deeded week.  Now I do know this, that if you get a deeded week for the 4th of July for instance, it will not always be, because sooner or later the timeshare company will change the week as years go by.  So the 4th of July week, may be the week after or before.
Count on the maintenance fee to increase every year, that is going to happen.   

Trust me, I have done it both ways, and I for one can tell you that it is the best deal you can get.   

Don't get involved in the RV either.  You will never know what it will cost you from year to year just for fuel and upkeep.  You can count on your timeshare maintenance fee going up from $25 to up to $100 a year.  That is something you do not have control of, but on the other hand the rent of your timeshare will be at least twice that. 

Now my wife and I are moving into our 3rd stage of life together.  Getting close to retirement time. We are thinking about renting a room in our house out, so we will have a live in dog sitter.  This way we can get enough money to take a vacation every month, and will not have to worry about the house sitting empty and will have someone to take care of the dog when are gone. 

So, in closing, don't forget if you have a pet, that it is going to need to be boarded also.  That cost us right at $100 per week. 

Now comes to the resale value.  That is the least thing to worry about.  After you buy your timeshare, good luck in selling it for anything.  The savings is not in the resale value, the value is in using it, renting it, or exchanging it, and as a bonus you get the getaways.


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## LannyPC (Dec 22, 2011)

Signs said:


> They are well worth the money.  Our timeshare is in a prime location on the beach.  We can easily rent it out for at least twice the cost of the yearly maintenance fee.....You can count on your timeshare maintenance fee going up from $25 to up to $100 a year.  That is something you do not have control of, but on the other hand the rent of your timeshare will be at least twice that.



That sounds all warm and fuzzy (almost like it came from a timeshare salesperson) but the majority of timeshare units cannot fetch enough rental income to cover the MFs.  That's where/when a unit becomes negative value.

I like looking (mostly for curiosity) at Red Week's ads.  I see a lot of TS owners offering their week for rent for less than the MFs.  Some of them still aren't getting rented.

Or, take a look at what's offered on TUG's Last Minute Rental board:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45

I'm almost certain most of those available for rent have MFs over $700.


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## Gophesjo (Dec 22, 2011)

LannyPC said:


> That sounds all warm and fuzzy (almost like it came from a timeshare salesperson) but the majority of timeshare units cannot fetch enough rental income to cover the MFs.  That's where/when a unit becomes negative value.
> 
> .



What's "warm and fuzzy" for me is being on Hilton Head in mid-May, at Myrtle Beach in early September, in Arizona for Christmas, and having a low MF trader to throw the dice with for Thanksgiving.  So as always, the mantra 'buy what you want to use' seems to be the only real way to win.


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## Signs (Dec 22, 2011)

Just wanting to let you know, when I bought my timeshare, I was very dissatisfied, also.  I know I can go to almost any location in the US at least and get a better deal on lodging. The problem is "What kind of Lodging" are you getting for the money?

You have to use the timeshare company for the get-a-ways also.   These are definite bonuses if you like to travel.

The problem is that with a motel rental is that you never know what is waiting for you.  I have stayed in major cities in supposedly the best hotel chains and have been very disappointed with nearly every one at one time or another.  

However, I guess I have been lucky.  A lot of people just post their timeshare for rent here or Ebay I guess.  My best results have been through Craigslist.  I advertise it in cities such is New York and the Boston area.  If I don't get a renter from either, I go to Chicago, Detroit, and even had a rental from Seattle one year that was looking for my location to vacation at.  They found me in the New York listing.  

I just advertise is a rental and not a timeshare.

I post my ad something similar to this:
(Oceanview Vacation rental available in ---.  Sleeps 4, dates are from etc to etc... Located in a major resort on the strip.  Resort has an indoor swimming pool, indoor work out area, and one of the area's best places to stay and the resort is located on the ocean. Contact me at: phone number or email - best to use both, and only accept PayPal - $1000) I also make my own webpage for the rental and not to the resort.  I do not use the link to the timeshare itself. In my opinion that when they read the ad and think of it is a timeshare, they also think they are going to get hounded in buying a timeshare.  I do tell them that it is a timeshare before they pay for the rental, and also make sure the company does not contact them to sell them one, unless they ask.  I have had two to inquire to the timeshare company and actually they sold one from me.

Now the above is only for the lockout and not the oceanfront unit.   

I am not a sales person for a timeshare company or ever would do that.  I had rather be a used car salesman than that, even though I am just an HVAC mechanic.    Again, real estate is location, location, location.  That is it.


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## MOXJO7282 (Dec 22, 2011)

It is location, location, location and name brand in my book. 

When I got into TSing I said one thing to myself, buy properties that you know you'll always be able to get rid of. Even if I had to take a loss just being about to get out was the most important thing. 

The last thing I wanted was this TS portfolio that if things went bad would become an albatross for my family. That is why I always went with a name brand like Marriott because I just knew even if the whole TS market went bad, and it did, Marriotts would still have a market. 

I do think the worse is over and in the next few years I believe all TSing will regain some value especially Marriotts.


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## Signs (Dec 22, 2011)

*I agree!!!*



MOXJO7282 said:


> It is location, location, location and name brand in my book.



I agree, and also time of year in many locations.  Myself I would rather have a deeded week also, and not floating.  In my case my week is deeded, but I can also request a different week for it, if it is available, for either the lockout, or the whole unit. Don't buy one on the beach in the north for a winter week, unless you really want to go there in the winter every year.  

A lot of the problem is that people just don't think things through.  The only way to compare a timeshare to anything is a vacation property.


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## Mel (Dec 22, 2011)

LannyPC said:


> That sounds all warm and fuzzy (almost like it came from a timeshare salesperson) but the majority of timeshare units cannot fetch enough rental income to cover the MFs.  That's where/when a unit becomes negative value.
> 
> I like looking (mostly for curiosity) at Red Week's ads.  I see a lot of TS owners offering their week for rent for less than the MFs.  Some of them still aren't getting rented.
> 
> ...


The majority of timeshares that are rented do not show up on Redweek, and they certainly are not on the last minute rental board.  Cruises drop their prices at the last minute too - because some income is better than none.

Each of these listings you're looking at is a snapshot, not a good picture of the whole environment.  These renters are the ones who don't care that they are losing money, because they don't really see it that way - the maintenance fees were spent, and now they either get a renter or they don't.  And they drop their price so low because they want to make sure they are the one whose unit rents, rather than the next guy.

In some areas, the maintenance fees are higher than I would want to pay in the off-season, but the owners of those weeks paid a far lower buy-in than the owners of the high season weeks, and knew they were expected to pay the same annual fees.  As others have already mentioned, as long as the HOA is owner-controlled, those fees are set based on the upkeep of the resort, and shared equally among all owners.  If the HOA were to vote to dissolve, and sell the resort, all owners would also share equally in the proceeds (meaning it would be good to purchase a "poor" week for $1 the year before), because they all own undivided interests.

There are some resorts that don't work that way; most of them are based on some kind of points system, to divide the maintenance fees more "fairly."  Presumably, the proceeds from a sale would be divided in the same manner.


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## timeos2 (Dec 22, 2011)

MOXJO7282 said:


> It is location, location, location and name brand in my book.
> 
> The last thing I wanted was this TS portfolio that if things went bad would become an albatross for my family. That is why I always went with a name brand like Marriott because I just knew even if the whole TS market went bad, and it did, Marriotts would still have a market.
> 
> I do think the worse is over and in the next few years I believe all TSing will regain some value especially Marriotts.



I see the theory but when I looked at the numbers it didn't work out like you'd think it would. 

While a name brand such as Marriott might hold some value they still take a massive hit - minimum 50% and in many cases they may drop to the the $5K or lower mark.  Since they start out in the mid-20's and maybe far more despite a minimal residual value that is a $15-30k or more just on purchase cost.  Then you have the annual fees. "Name" brands tend to average 1/3 higher or more over a non-big name in those fees due to the hefty overhead the names tend to demand.  So each and every year you end up plopping down $400-$800 or more in fees a non-name doesn't pay. 

So instead we go the resale, non-name route with owner control. Buy in even 10 years ago under $5K.  Annual fees still under $1000 - in fact one JUST passed $500 a year ago.  In nearly 20 years of purchasing & owning up to our peak of 7 weeks we haven't spent $30K total including all the fees & purchases. 

So the "safety" of the name ends up costing more than selective resale purchase of non-names.  And that doesn't mean you can't utilize those names.  We have stayed at every Marriott & Hilton we have wanted to through relatively easy trades - and I'm talking the prime holiday/out of school periods everyone else wanted as well.  We have found the real values are great, owner managed resorts with low fees that are in high demand areas/times. They can be easily rented or traded for virtually anything at a tremendous cost savings over the "names". Thus a true value proposition vs a "safe" but far more costly route of brand name ownership (we also tried Disney and found it too expensive for value received).  

And even float vs fixed being a better choice may depend on where/what you own.  We have a fixed coastal week as only the 8-10 best weeks of summer have true value in that type of highly seasonal location.  But in Orlando it is much better to have a 100% float ownership so you can adjust to the exact time period that works best for that use year, rather than forcing you into the same time each use when you may prefer a different season or holiday in some use years.  In non-seasonal areas that is much preferred. 

So while there is nothing wrong with the "safety" of a name brand recognize that you are not getting the massive savings available for timeshare ownership. You are reasonably safe in having a way out - but far from low cost - when you're done with it.  And you certainly tend to get a good to great level of accommodation.  The very best value  - and lowest total cost overall- remains a well chosen resale at a non-name location you like. Bought right you can even give it away when you are done and still come out better than the name brand owner would.


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## Signs (Dec 22, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> I see the theory but when I looked at the numbers it didn't work out like you'd think it would.



Well I am glad to see that there are investors that make money in timeshares.  I was hoping one would post.  

I also agree with you if you are an investor in timeshare properties and not just a general user.   Now my resort is owned by Gold Key that that I believe somehow that is affiliated with Clarion.  So I believe I have the best of both worlds at this time.

Like I said with my resort I can request different weeks providing they are available.  

I have considered investing in the Orlando area, but you have to be a real pro to be able to pull it off to make money.  Maybe you could send me a PM with a resort in the Orlando area I may consider and some advice so I can try it.


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## Gophesjo (Dec 22, 2011)

Signs said:


> Now my resort is owned by Gold Key that that I believe somehow that is affiliated with Clarion.



What's the deal with Virginia Beach timeshares?  They seem to me to re-sell at higher values than other comparable properties.  Does your Gold Key property rent well, too?


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## Signs (Dec 23, 2011)

Gophesjo said:


> What's the deal with Virginia Beach timeshares?  They seem to me to re-sell at higher values than other comparable properties.  Does your Gold Key property rent well, too?



I only own one timeshare, but what I see on the internet they are worth the money for the most part. 

Do they rent well?  Yes, but with exceptions.     Must be during summer school break, and you must make sure your unit can sleep and rent for 4 people, 8 or better is easier to rent.  I can rent out my lockout for more than the cost of the maintenance fee for the entire unit.   I will send you a PM later this evening or tomorrow explaining a lot of things before you make the jump. It will come down to you doing your homework, and how you advertise it and where.

There are many reasons why the resell values are higher than most, and I can see it only increasing over the years to come.


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## the_truth (Jan 13, 2012)

The truth is that there will never be a viable, liquid resale market for timeshares. Let me ask you a question?

If the timeshare did not cost you anything, would you ever feel the need to sell it? Probably not. 

According to the AG you have less than a 4% chance of selling your interval. They did a study (during better economic times than we are in now) and discovered there was never a resale market.

Read your public offering statement - value is in the enjoyment with no expectation that it can be resold. Oh, you didn't read that probably because they rushed you through the paperwork.

It get's even worse than that - your probably going to have to pay to get rid of it.


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## a1000monkeys (Jan 13, 2012)

I find that with Wyndhams, I can generally rent from a VIP owner for less than it would cost me to own a resale contract and pay the MFs since VIP owners can make reservations with fewer points than non-VIP owners.

Since VIP status doesn't transfer on resale contracts, there is no reason to buy.  In fact, I don't think I would take a Wyndham contract even if someone paid me.


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## Bob327 (Jan 20, 2012)

Ok How do I find a buyer (??)  who would be willing to take my Timeshare off my hand for FREE... 

Tried a few years ago when the economy first dumped without any luck at all.. Just got my "assessment in the mail last week and to be honest I am wondering what will happen if I just do not pay the darn thing...Sure it will screw up my credit score..but as a Senior Citizen with a little money inthe bank who cares ..

worst darn NON -investment I ever made BUT it did make my wife happy ..
live and learn...

Bob G


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 20, 2012)

*Happiness Is Where You Find It.*




Bob327 said:


> worst darn NON -investment I ever made BUT it did make my wife happy ..
> live and learn...


Around here, making the wife happy ranks high on the importance list. 

That includes giving away some timeshares that The Chief Of Staff no longer wanted to keep.  

One of those was via free giveaway offer right here on TUG-BBS. 

The others were via eBay Classifieds -- (formerly Kijiji Dot Com). 

Good luck.

_Full Disclosure*:*_  The eBay Classified ad got flagged for correction when we advertised our giveaway timeshare as "free."  I assume that's because it isn't really free -- closing & resort transfer fees were involved, plus RCI Points fees, not to mention ongoing timeshare maintenance fees.  So we changed the ad to $1 instead of free.  Pretty soon we got takers who followed through -- & the rest is history. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## MuranoJo (Jan 20, 2012)

Bob327 said:


> Ok How do I find a buyer (??)  who would be willing to take my Timeshare off my hand for FREE...
> 
> Bob G



Bob,
Go to the top of this page where you'll see a 'Forum Jump' drop-down menu.  You'll find a 'Bargain Deals' link right under 'Buying, Selling, Renting' which will take you to an area of BBS where you can advertise a free timeshare.  

Be sure to include data such as week/seasonal period, # bedrooms, maintenance fees, transfer fees, etc.   You can scroll the other ads to get more ideas.

From what I've seen, quite a few people are successful finding new owners.  Best of luck!


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## Sandgroper (Feb 7, 2012)

*Legal Assistance Required*

I recently purchased a TS property and feel the group is in breach of the contract we signed. I live outside of the US because it is a legal matter with a US corp. I feel I need US representation.Can any one provide the contact details of a good, successful law firm that specailises in TS that may be able to assist me.  

I appreciate the help. 

Sandgroper


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## scootr5 (Feb 7, 2012)

Posting where the property and/or company is located may help narrow down the recommendations.


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## DeniseM (Feb 7, 2012)

scootr5 said:


> Posting where the property and/or company is located may help narrow down the recommendations.



He owns Wyndham [I merged his other threads] and has buyers remorse, but it's way too late to get out of this contract, since he purchased it more than 6 mos. ago.


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## littlestar (Feb 7, 2012)

To the original poster - I have stayed at Wyndham Waikiki Beachwalk and it's truly a sweetheart of a resort with a terrific location.  I'd go back in a heartbeat.  I've noticed that if you don't own at Waikiki Beachwalk it's tough to book those high floor units with the ocean views.  The higher floors are the best in my opinion.  

I've also noticed that Ebay auctions for Wyndham Waikiki Beachwalk typically go for more money than some of the other Wyndham resorts.  If I lived on the west coast (instead of the midwest of the USA) I'd definitely want to own some Wyndham Waikiki Beachwalk points for the home resort booking priority. 

Good luck with your ownership.


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