# How much do you spend on Marriott Maintenance Fees?



## StevenTing (May 30, 2018)

I know that many of us are savvy in the ways of Marriott and have many weeks/points in the system.  I've added up all of my maintenance fees and I'm paying about $11,000 per year.  I wanted to get a feel of how invested people are with Marriott.

The poll should be anonymous.


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## Steve Fatula (May 30, 2018)

This will be interesting to see if enough votes come in.


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## frank808 (May 30, 2018)

I will say too much.  But we are enjoying every week that we own!


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## TravelTime (May 30, 2018)

I don't even know! I will need to add up my MVC MFs and do the survey. You should do another survey for how much we spend in MFs on all the timeshares we own! Then I would be in the 5 figures.

Also, do you want us to just include Marriott or also include Vistana and Hyatt in this survey since they are merging.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 30, 2018)

2018 will exceed $40k.


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## IngridN (May 30, 2018)

I'm somewhere between $7-8K, 5 Marriott timeshares. We'll be divesting of some as now that DH is retired, we'll be traveling more to urban locations w/o timeshares.


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## brianfox (May 30, 2018)

5 weeks Hawaii Marriott is about $10.6K, which nets about 32K Chase Ultimate Rewards points (which I value between $600 and $1000)


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## SeaDoc (May 31, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> I know that many of us are savvy in the ways of Marriott and have many weeks/points in the system.  I've added up all of my maintenance fees and I'm paying about $11,000 per year.  I wanted to get a feel of how invested people are with Marriott.
> 
> The poll should be anonymous.


A more illuminating question is how much rental value do you extract from your ownership?  In other words, if one pays 8k yearly for maintenance fees, but receives 40k of rental value, that's a 5 to 1 return on one's ownership. Suddenly, MF becomes less relevant and ownership becomes more valuable...  I do this analysis every year and I typically exceed 6:1 year after year, especially with the advent of the destination points program.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (May 31, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> A more illuminating question is how much rental value do you extract from your ownership?  In other words, if one pays 8k yearly for maintenance fees, but receives 40k of rental value, that's a 5 to 1 return on one's ownership. Suddenly, MF becomes less relevant and ownership becomes more valuable...  I do this analysis every year and I typically exceed 6:1 year after year, especially with the advent of the destination points program.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



What’s your most profitable rental?


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## vacationtime1 (May 31, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> A more illuminating question is how much rental value do you extract from your ownership?  In other words, if one pays 8k yearly for maintenance fees, but receives 40k of rental value, that's a 5 to 1 return on one's ownership. Suddenly, MF becomes less relevant and ownership becomes more valuable...  I do this analysis every year and I typically exceed 6:1 year after year, especially with the advent of the destination points program.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



How do you work the acquisition cost into this calculation?  Renting for 4x MF's or even 6x MF's means little until one knows how much money one paid upfront to buy the unit in order to earn that "profit".


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## StevenTing (May 31, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I don't even know! I will need to add up my MVC MFs and do the survey. You should do another survey for how much we spend in MFs on all the timeshares we own! Then I would be in the 5 figures.
> 
> Also, do you want us to just include Marriott or also include Vistana and Hyatt in this survey since they are merging.



That's a good question.  I would say for right now just Marriott as the merger hasn't closed.  Once it officially closes, you could include them.  The poll allows you to change your vote in the future.




MOXJO7282 said:


> 2018 will exceed $40k.



Wow.  But for some reason, this is not so uprising considering your portfolio of properties.



SeaDoc said:


> A more illuminating question is how much rental value do you extract from your ownership?  In other words, if one pays 8k yearly for maintenance fees, but receives 40k of rental value, that's a 5 to 1 return on one's ownership. Suddenly, MF becomes less relevant and ownership becomes more valuable...  I do this analysis every year and I typically exceed 6:1 year after year, especially with the advent of the destination points program.



This would be an interesting poll.  Maybe I'll create another one.  It'd probably have to utilize ratios like you've mentioned.  I would be interested in learning more about your rentals, especially when you're talking 5:1 or 6:1 ratios.  I'd also be interested in understanding the composition of your timeshare portfolio.  My first impression is that with Marriott properties, you'd fall within the 2:1 or 2.5:1 ratio.  Guess it's time for another thread.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 31, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> That's a good question.  I would say for right now just Marriott as the merger hasn't closed.  Once it officially closes, you could include them.  The poll allows you to change your vote in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I agree with the 2:1 or 2.5:1 ratio but 5:1 that doesn't seem realistic unless you're talking very low cost units that somehow rent for max on very special occasions.  I won't personally share specifics but will generalizations.  I'll share that looking at my numbers my high for 2018 was 2.69:1 for an MOW OF summer week and a low of 1.07:1 for one of my HP weeks.  My 11 Maui weeks average over 2:1.  The best part is most Marriott and definitely the ones I own still cover MFs, some much more than others. Also the nice volume of MAR points just from paying your MFs is a huge perk.  I get close to 500k point every 2 years. It's like a serious cash rebate for paying my bills.


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## TravelTime (May 31, 2018)

I think we are mixing several questions here now. One is how much we pay in MFs for Marriott (which is a very limited question since many Tuggers own many brands). The second question would really only be for people who regularly rent out their TSs. So you might need a third question: What percentage of your timeshares do you use vs rent for income purposes and, of that, what is your return?


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## TXTortoise (May 31, 2018)

This Marriott rental discussion is great! But wondering if it should be split off to a new thread for better focus. 

I only rented one unit last year, but hope to successfully rent four, including lock off of one to cover MF, in 2019. I don’t do it as business, but can’t use them all and the net ‘profit’ pays for airfare and a couple of weeks of car rental. 

All of mine are high purchase price units, but I target 2x return against MFs and expect to get that, after commissions in my case. 

When including capital costs it’s about a 10% gross return. That number would double if I had more than one Maui winter week floating unit purchased at $15-20k, vs fixed weeks. 

Obviously 2019 MF growth is the wild card as rental growth tends to lag against rent ask. With the advent of more Marriott focused Facebook pages and more owners realizing they can rent vs maybe selling, I also see downward pressure on rents as most owners just want to cover their MF, often leaving a good chunk of market value on the table. 

To do this justice, the discussion really needs to recognize two groups, high demand resorts in high demand seasons, e,g., Maui winter/summer, HHI summer, President’s Week, Christmas/NY, vs lower cost units that may generate high percentage returns, but fewer dollars, within a smaller calendar window?


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## Fasttr (May 31, 2018)

What's interesting so far is that approx. 50% of the respondents pay $4K or less annually.   But the 5 who pay $20K or more pay at least equal in total dollars as a group to what the 34 folks who pay $4K or less pay in total dollars as a group.  Its sort of like our US tax system.  ;-)  Sadly, I am not a 1 percenter in either.


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## VacationForever (May 31, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> What's interesting so far is that approx. 50% of the respondents pay $4K or less annually.   But the 5 who pay $20K or more pay at least equal in total dollars as a group to what the 34 folks who pay $4K or less pay in total dollars as a group.  Its sort of like our US tax system.  ;-)  Sadly, I am not a 1 percenter in either.


We are kind of failures.  When we retired a couple of years ago, we decided to reduce MF obligations and to shed most of what we owned.  We requested Marriott resales to sell our DSV I weeks.  We got rid of Worldmark points entirely and most of our Vistana weeks and while waiting for DSV I to be listed, the weeks got enrolled and then we bought more.  A month after our DSV weeks were enrolled and new MVC purchase, MVC resales sent us listing agreement to sell our DSV weeks.  Talk about timing.  So our MF went up instead of down.


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## pedro47 (May 31, 2018)

I feel the final MF range will be between $1800 -  $2100 p./yr for most owners.


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## bazzap (May 31, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I think we are mixing several questions here now. One is how much we pay in MFs for Marriott (which is a very limited question since many Tuggers own many brands). The second question would really only be for people who regularly rent out their TSs. So you might need a third question: What percentage of your timeshares do you use vs rent for income purposes and, of that, what is your return?


I agree, many of us will be coming from different positions and have different plans and expectations for our investments. 
We own 10 MVC weeks (12 usable with lock offs), 9 of these are enrolled in DC, we pay some $15,000 MFs plus or minus dependent on exchange rate fluctuations, as the pay in $, € and Thai Baht.
However, apart from a little academic interest in potential rental returns, we have almost zero interest in actually renting in the forseeable future as we bought and plan to use our weeks (and any elected points) for our own use stays.


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## l0410z (May 31, 2018)

I am thinking to complete the picture two more questions come to mind that would be on interest on what the distribution with am eye ball comparison to MF.  

One is how many week equivalent vacations do you get.  I say week equivalent because it normalizes owners that us DP points for less than week stays, lock off usage and DP point usage discounts based on levels.    I own 2 weeks and a EOY lock-off that I split.  So I get 3 weeks vacation for my MF.  

The other question is how much did you pay for your total ownership.   My total resale cost was 18.3 K


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## VacationForever (May 31, 2018)

I think it will get into a huge survey if we want all scenarios.  We turn weeks to MRPs some, stay some, trade in II some and now points book some.


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## TravelTime (May 31, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> I think it will get into a huge survey if we want all scenarios.  We turn weeks to MRPs some, stay some, trade in II some and now points book some.



Yes I agree. That is why I am not sure how helpful the survey is. For people interested in this topic, a discussion seems more helpful.


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## jont (May 31, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> What's interesting so far is that approx. 50% of the respondents pay $4K or less annually.   But the 5 who pay $20K or more pay at least equal in total dollars as a group to what the 34 folks who pay $4K or less pay in total dollars as a group.  Its sort of like our US tax system.  ;-)  Sadly, I am not a 1 percenter in either.


You'll always be a 1 percenter to me. If fact, you're one in a million.


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## Fasttr (May 31, 2018)

jont said:


> You'll always be a 1 percenter to me. If fact, you're one in a million.


You are funny....but not proctologist funny.....

Have you ever met a proctologist? They usually have a very good sense of humor. You meet a proctologist at a party, don't walk away. Plant yourself there because you will hear the funniest stories you've ever heard. See, no one wants to admit to them that they stuck something up there. Never. It's always an accident. Every proctologist story ends in the same way... 'It was a million to one shot, doc, million to one

Giddy Up.


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## TXTortoise (May 31, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> You are funny....but not proctologist funny.....
> 
> Have you ever met a proctologist? They usually have a very good sense of humor. You meet a proctologist at a party, don't walk away. Plant yourself there because you will hear the funniest stories you've ever heard. See, no one wants to admit to them that they stuck something up there. Never. It's always an accident. Every proctologist story ends in the same way... 'It was a million to one shot, doc, million to one



Mine was a vet before he changed careers...interesting bedside manner. ;-)


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## StevenTing (May 31, 2018)

It would be nice to do a multi-question survey.  Maybe do something with Survey monkey.  But right now I just want to know how much other people pay.  How vested are they with Marriott.  The other discussions are interesting but I'm about to leave on a little vacay and don't want to think too hard just yet.


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## ilene13 (May 31, 2018)

We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments.  Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba.  We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987.  Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt.  As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52.  For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property.  It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks.  So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me!  The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.


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## bazzap (May 31, 2018)

ilene13 said:


> We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments.  Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba.  We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987.  Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt.  As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52.  For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property.  It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks.  So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me!  The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.


I share broadly similar views to you about the rental issue.
A dilemma we do face though is that many, if not all, of us when initially buying were very clearly  “sold” as one of our usage options the possibility of renting out our weeks.
MVC still promote the rental option even today, albeit now just through their own operation
https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/vacationOptions/weeks-makeYourVillaAvailable/
I am sure most of us took this to mean that if we couldn’t use our week(s) for stays in any given year then we could rent them out to cover our costs and even make a reasonable profit.
We certainly didn’t interpret this as being able to buy up large numbers of weeks with the specific intent of renting them out as a profitable enterprise, although I had never seen anything to suggest this was not allowed.
We have read that recently MVC have taken some action to stop such obvious large scale commercial business activity in Aruba specifically, although this does not seem to have resolved the issue from your experience?
I do believe it would help considerably if we all had a better and common understanding of what is and more importantly is not acceptable as far as rentals are concerned.


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## ilene13 (May 31, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I share broadly similar views to you about the rental issue.
> A dilemma we do face though is that many, if not all, of us when initially buying were very clearly  “sold” as one of our usage options the possibility of renting out our weeks.
> MVC still promote the rental option even today, albeit now just through their own operation
> https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/vacationOptions/weeks-makeYourVillaAvailable/
> ...


I too periodically rent out one of my weeks if we are not using them.  I made a conscientious decision last December when I did not get the dates I wanted I was not going to perpetuate the “business “ model for these owners by renting a week from one of them, so we are staying 5 days in the hotel using MRP. MVC says that they are working on this issue but there has been no resolution as of yet.


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## TravelTime (Jun 1, 2018)

ilene13 said:


> We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments.  Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba.  We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987.  Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt.  As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52.  For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property.  It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks.  So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me!  The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.



I totally agree with you. There are rules against commercial rental of timeshares. I tried to buy just enough that I can use what I own. If I have an extra week now and then, I might rent it just to not lose the MF. However, I bought to use in high value destinations and I own several timeshare systems for different purposes. My main goal is to stay in larger, more upscale destinations and resorts so I suspect I will personally use 99% of what I own and rent very little, if any. I think it is a lot of work to rent out timeshares and the margin is small. So if we find we can’t use everything we own, we will probably sell some. I think the option to rent out a timeshare here and there that someone can’t personally use makes sense. But I agree mass acquisition of timeshares just for rental purposes is unfair to owners like us who buy to use.


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## bazzap (Jun 2, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I totally agree with you. There are rules against commercial rental of timeshares. I tried to buy just enough that I can use what I own. If I have an extra week now and then, I might rent it just to not lose the MF. However, I bought to use in high value destinations and I own several timeshare systems for different purposes. My main goal is to stay in larger, more upscale destinations and resorts so I suspect I will personally use 99% of what I own and rent very little, if any. I think it is a lot of work to rent out timeshares and the margin is small. So if we find we can’t use everything we own, we will probably sell some. I think the option to rent out a timeshare here and there that someone can’t personally use makes sense. But I agree mass aquisition of timeshares just for rental purposes is unfair to owners like us who buy to use.


I also agree that “commercial” rental of timeshares is unfair and I believe against the rules.
However, is this actually defined by MVC anywhere?
What is “commercial” - 2, 3, 5, 10 or more weeks one year, just a few weeks but every year.....?
Unless there is clarity, this will just continue.


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## TravelTime (Jun 2, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I also agree that “commercial” rental of timeshares is unfair and I believe against the rules.
> However, is this actually defined by MVC anywhere?
> What is “commercial” - 2, 3, 5, 10 or more weeks one year, just a few weeks but every year.....?
> Unless there is clarity, this will just continue.



Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?


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## bazzap (Jun 2, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?


I guess we will see if someone finds an MVC definition (I have not been able to as yet).
I suspect we might all have different definitions of both “commercial” and “business for profit” though.
For example, at one of our home resorts one Owner has over 20 weeks.
They use quite a few of these themselves, but they rent out most of them for more than the MFs which effectively covers all their MFs and gives them free vacations.
Is that “business for profit”?
Strictly I would have thought it must be, but personally I believe that is quite a smart move and the MVC resort team actually promote this practice as an option available to owners.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jun 2, 2018)

If you think about it, isn't the DC system a commercial system for renting out ownership weeks? Only it is MVC that is the commercial entity?


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## SMB1 (Jun 2, 2018)

I don't look to make a profit.  I do rent out a couple weeks to off set and occasionally break even on my maintenance fees.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 2, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?


I would say if a US tax payer is using a Schedule C for any expenses or income related to timeshare rentals, then the IRS would at least consider it a commercial operation.


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## bazzap (Jun 2, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I would say if a US tax payer is using a Schedule C for any expenses or income related to timeshare rentals, then the IRS would at least consider it a commercial operation.


I wouldn’t claim to understand US tax law (I do have an understanding, but by no means expertise on UK tax law), but wouldn’t an owner just renting out their week(s) when they couldn’t use them theoretically at least need to declare this as rental income and therefore be recognised as a commercial operation?
I can’t believe MVC or most Owners would find this too troubling though.


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## ilene13 (Jun 2, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I wouldn’t claim to understand US tax law (I do have an understanding, but by no means expertise on UK tax law), but wouldn’t an owner just renting out their week(s) when they couldn’t use them theoretically at least need to declare this as rental income and therefore be recognised as a commercial operation?
> I can’t believe MVC or most Owners would find this too troubling though.


They are supposed to.  There are people at the Aruba Ocean Club renting out 15-20 weeks.


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## BocaBoy (Jun 3, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I guess we will see if someone finds an MVC definition (I have not been able to as yet).
> I suspect we might all have different definitions of both “commercial” and “business for profit” though.
> For example, at one of our home resorts one Owner has over 20 weeks.
> They use quite a few of these themselves, but they rent out most of them for more than the MFs which effectively covers all their MFs and gives them free vacations.
> ...


I actually don't think this should be viewed as a "business for profit."  Rather, it is a way to cover the maintenance fees.
In fact, when a developer sells weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits, I think it would be almost impossible to prevent that owner from renting any or all of his/her weeks.


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## bazzap (Jun 3, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> I actually don't think this should be viewed as a "business for profit."  Rather, it is a way to cover the maintenance fees.
> In fact, when a developer sells weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits, I think it would be almost impossible to prevent that owner from renting any or all of his/her weeks.


I very much recall the Marriott sales person “selling weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits”.
Because we don’t rent, I have never checked the details relating to this on the contracts we signed though (which is all that really counts). 
I will do now, but perhaps someone who already has can comment on what if anything the contracts say about renting and any restrictions in doing so.
Certainly because Aruba Surf Club seems to be where volume rentals impact owners most, there was a threat of legal action by the Owners Association against those who rent large numbers of weeks regularly
https://www.redweek.com/forums/messages?thread_id=21865
It would be interesting to know what happened following this, whether anything similar has happened at other MVC resorts and what if anything has been said by MVC themselves about this.


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## TravelTime (Jun 3, 2018)

Obviously many people rent out their weeks as Redweek has thousands of timeshare rentals and TUG has many too. If MVC wanted to crack down on this, it would be easy. I have never rented a week, so I do not know how it works. I assume when a renter checks in, it would be obvious that they are not the owner because their name is different and MVC could ask the person if they rented from an owner. Does MVC require guest certificates or just a name change on the reservation? I would not view renting out a week an owner can’t use as a problem or as something that would affect other owners. I can see how people who buy 10-50+ weeks and book them all at 12-13 months for rental purposes only would be harming the availability for us regular owners who buy to use.


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## TravelTime (Jun 3, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> If you think about it, isn't the DC system a commercial system for renting out ownership weeks? Only it is MVC that is the commercial entity?



MVC is the developer so this is not comparable to an owner “subletting” their week to a third party. If I am following your logic, an owner is subletting for commercial purposes, not renting then.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jun 3, 2018)

Let me explain in more detail.

Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, _in toto_, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
Developer built it, and then sold the week to person X, which ends the _developer's_, formal interest in the timeshare. The HOA thereafter controls the timeshare complex.

So far, so good?

The DC viewpoint. The DC owns large number of weeks. In this, it is just like an individual. (More weeks, of course, but still owns the weeks.) No DC points owner owns any week. They own access to the the pool of weeks.
The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns. Now it doesn't do it on a one-to-one weeks basis, nor are they one time rentals. They are, in essence,  a recurring rental contract, to the points owners.
This rental process is different from the actual initial building of a timeshare, which is what a developer does. In this MVC is wearing both "hats". The functions are different, though.

Let me give a hypothetical example. If I were to buy up, say, 500 week intervals (or 5,000, or 50,000). I could set up my own points system, in competition to the DC program. Other that the fact I would not be planning to develop any new timeshares, what would the difference be? Why would my doing it be any different.

More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .


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## TravelTime (Jun 3, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Let me explain in more detail.
> 
> Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
> The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, _in toto_, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
> ...



I see where you are going but it still feels like comparing apples to oranges. In any case, you are correct that it all depends on what the MVC documents say when one purchases a deeded week or points and how “commercial” is defined.


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## DannyTS (Jun 3, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns.
> 
> More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .


You are correct. The MVC is the ultimate commercial renter and this is probably why it does not enforce its own rule because it actually contradicts its own business model and is hypocritical at the minimum.


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## bazzap (Jun 3, 2018)

I have just taken a quick look at “Marriott’s Grand Chateau Program Documents” (my last Developer purchase)
I only have a paper copy - although it has a reference UT_DOCS_A#1147016 v8, I haven’t been able to find an online version.

So in simple summary, in Article XI Restrictions of use on Page 66, it says 
with reference to commercial use being prohibited
“which shall include, but not be limited to, any pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Vacation Owner that the Developer during the Developer Control period, or thereafter the Board, in its sole and exclusive discretion, concludes constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice....”
although with this exception
“any Vacation Owner or his, her or its duly authorized agent from renting his, her or its use period from time to time”

As I read / interpret this, MVC or the Board will allow Owners to rent until they decide according to criteria they don’t share or specify that they no longer can.
I am sure they will not take action unless they deem that some Owners purchase to exclusively rent as a profit making business, but this can only be an assumption as nothing is documented here.


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## TXTortoise (Jun 3, 2018)

Sounds like a standard control that allows them to do something, if needed, the most likely being the scenario Sir Edward described.  And apparently the threshold is much higher than whatever has been going on with the Aruba story that is always referenced.

Knew we should have split off this thread to two topics. ;-)


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jun 3, 2018)

I apologise for hi-jacking the thread.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 3, 2018)

The 3X points on Marriott fees is pretty valuable to me, too.  I don't necessarily value 32K points at $600-$1,000, unless I transfer to Hyatt hotels or to an airline for a business or first class seat to somewhere overseas.  

Hyatt makes those hotel points very valuable.  I would never transfer those points to IHG or Marriott because the value is just not there.  Still trying to decide whether to apply for the new Marriott card, but we already have 3 hotel credit cards and stay mostly in timeshare, so having the Marriott card might be a waste. 

Maybe you know something I don't know about the value of those points.  I am trying to decide whether to pay my Vistana fees on my Starwood CC to get the 2X points and have to do the math on that one.  With Starwood, I can still transfer to Amtrak for another great train ride in a private car.  ~56,000 Starwood points gets a nice cabin with bed and private bathroom + all meals in one zone.  That will all end soon.  

Is there a deal with Marriott Rewards for Amtrak?  I wonder what will happen to that Starwood card on 8/1.  




brianfox said:


> 5 weeks Hawaii Marriott is about $10.6K, which nets about 32K Chase Ultimate Rewards points (which I value between $600 and $1000)


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## JIMinNC (Jun 3, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Let me explain in more detail.
> 
> Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
> The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, _in toto_, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
> ...



As I understand it, the commercial prohibition has never applied to the Developer (Marriott Ownership Resorts, Inc .) as they have been allowed to rent intervals they own/control since program inception. As I further read the DC Trust Agreement (as a lay-person, not a lawyer) it would seem that agreement attempts to assign the rights of the Developer to the Trust Manager (also Marriott Ownership Resorts, Inc.), so if the Developer has the right to rent, then so would the Trust Manager. I would expect that would be the language that MVC relies on to avoid a conflict with the commercial prohibition. If you were to set up your own points system, it would not be exempt from the prohibition because you are not the Developer/Trust Manager.

I too wish MVC would more strictly enforce the commercial prohibition. Mega-renters are also a problem at Maui Ocean Club in addition to Aruba.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 3, 2018)

Even if Marriott didn't want to or couldn't outlaw rentals outright, they certainly could inhibit it to where it may not be practical. The Reservation Procedures; updated in 2010 for each resort does allow the reservation agent (MVCI) to institute lottery systems for certain high demand weeks.


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## TXTortoise (Jun 3, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I apologise for hi-jacking the thread.


No worries, happened much earlier.


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## ilene13 (Jun 3, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I very much recall the Marriott sales person “selling weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits”.
> Because we don’t rent, I have never checked the details relating to this on the contracts we signed though (which is all that really counts).
> I will do now, but perhaps someone who already has can comment on what if anything the contracts say about renting and any restrictions in doing so.
> Certainly because Aruba Surf Club seems to be where volume rentals impact owners most, there was a threat of legal action by the Owners Association against those who rent large numbers of weeks regularly
> ...


It’s the Ocean Club not the Surf Club where the majority of issues occur.  There is a legal action going on, but it’s still in progress.


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## hangloose (Jun 3, 2018)

We are at ~$10k for MFs annually on our 5 deeded MVC weeks.  While definitely worth it, I hope it stays somewhat within reason.

In the standard MVC sales presentations, I think they give an average # of weeks / DC pts a owner has in their portfolio.  Perhaps equivalent to around 2 weeks+/-?  Anyone remember.  If 2 weeks, I would bet this survey lands with the majority in the $2k-4k category with an average MF of around $3k for 2 weeks.

I also wonder..if TUGgers own more than the normal MVC timeshare owner?  Thus perhaps skewing our survey results slightly high?  Or maybe TUGgers don't own more than the average, but are just more interested/knowledgeable about MVC timeshare?


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## BulldogzRus (Jun 4, 2018)

I'm not sure if this sounds foolish or not, since I'm still contemplating entering the time-share market but here goes: I assume many of you bought yours from eBay, Redweek or this very site...so say a week you wanted costs $3k and historically staying there costs approx. $2k either renting from someone else or even going the hotel route initially. Having said that, is the thought process that say, after Year 2 that initial $3k has paid for itself, and now MFs of approx. $1500 are what trips going forward once a year will be your "cost" and now you're saving about $500 every year (assuming MFs stay the same for some time)? 

If so, when MFs oustrip the actual normal cost what do you do then?


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## JIMinNC (Jun 4, 2018)

BulldogzRus said:


> I'm not sure if this sounds foolish or not, since I'm still contemplating entering the time-share market but here goes: I assume many of you bought yours from eBay, Redweek or this very site...so say a week you wanted costs $3k and historically staying there costs approx. $2k either renting from someone else or even going the hotel route initially. Having said that, is the thought process that say, after Year 2 that initial $3k has paid for itself, and now MFs of approx. $1500 are what trips going forward once a year will be your "cost" and now you're saving about $500 every year (assuming MFs stay the same for some time)?
> 
> If so, when MFs oustrip the actual normal cost what do you do then?



Most of us would say the proper way to look at the purchase price is to amortize it over the anticipated ownership period. So if you see yourself owning for say 20 years, then you would spread your hypothetical $3000 purchase cost over 20 years (Simplistically, with no adjustment for time value of money or any proceeds from the eventual sale of the week, that would be $150/year). So, you then add that $150/year to your hypothetical $1500/year maintenance fee, and your "week" is costing you $1650/year. That's what you would compare against your rental cost.

In most cases, if you buy high quality timeshares in high demand time (Platinum seasons) your maintenance fee costs will almost always be less than the cost of renting comparable accomodations (i.e. you shouldn't compare a two-bedroom Marriott timeshare stay to a $150/night budget hotel rental). Maintenance fee costs do go up over time, of course, but so do the costs of hotel rooms. (Three or four years ago I could easily find Hampton Inns and Marriott Fairfield Inns or Courtyards for around $100/night for some places I go each year on business, but the last year or two, those same hotels have cost me $150/night or more.) For those folks comfortable with the risks of renting accommodations direct from an individual, the differential between rental cost and maintenance fees are often much smaller, but again, in high demand places (like peak season in Hawaii), even direct P2P rental rates are often considerably more than typical maintenance fees.

Those folks who report in the survey above having maintenance fee costs of $6,000, $10,000, $15,000+ are those who own multiple (many) weeks of timeshares. Our total maintenance fee bill each year (for Marriotts and non-Marriotts) is a little under $5,000/year. But we can usually get at least three weeks vacation by using those weeks/points wisely, so our cost per week is somewhere in the $1500 to $1600 range. Since we aren't comfortable renting from individuals, booking three weeks of hotel stays would cost a lot more than $5,000. As an example, we decided we wanted to go to Hilton Head for this upcoming weekend, and we've already used our Marriott timeshare points for this year and next. So our only way to go and stay in a nice oceanfront place is to book a hotel room. We're staying three nights at the Westin and those three weekend nights (Fri/Sat/Sun) are costing about $1300 with taxes and resort fees. That's more than the maintenance fee for a full week of timeshare usage in a two bedroom HHI Marriott condo.


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## BulldogzRus (Jun 4, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> Most of us would say the proper way to look at the purchase price is to amortize it over the anticipated ownership period. So if you see yourself owning for say 20 years, then you would spread your hypothetical $3000 purchase cost over 20 years (Simplistically, with no adjustment for time value of money or any proceeds from the eventual sale of the week, that would be $150/year). So, you then add that $150/year to your hypothetical $1500/year maintenance fee, and your "week" is costing you $1650/year. That's what you would compare against your rental cost.
> 
> In most cases, if you buy high quality timeshares in high demand time (Platinum seasons) your maintenance fee costs will almost always be less than the cost of renting comparable accomodations (i.e. you shouldn't compare a two-bedroom Marriott timeshare stay to a $150/night budget hotel rental). Maintenance fee costs do go up over time, of course, but so do the costs of hotel rooms. (Three or four years ago I could easily find Hampton Inns and Marriott Fairfield Inns or Courtyards for around $100/night for some places I go each year on business, but the last year or two, those same hotels have cost me $150/night or more. For those folks comfortable with the risks of renting accommodations direct from an individual, the differential between rental cost and maintenance fees are often much smaller, but again, in high demand places (like peak season in Hawaii), even direct P2P rental rates are often considerably more than typical maintenance fees.
> 
> Those folks who report in the survey above having maintenance fee costs of $6,000, $10,000, $15,000+ are those who own multiple (many) weeks of timeshares. Our total maintenance fee bill each year (for Marriotts and non-Marriotts) is a little under $5,000/year. But we can usually get at least three weeks vacation by using those weeks/points wisely, so our cost per week is somewhere in the $1500 to $1600 range. Since we aren't comfortable renting from individuals, booking three weeks of hotel stays would cost a lot more than $5,000. As an example, we decided we wanted to go to Hilton Head for this upcoming weekend, and we've already used our Marriott timeshare points for this year and next. So our only way to go and stay in a nice oceanfront place is to book a hotel room. We're staying three nights at the Westin and those three weekend nights (Fri/Sat/Sun) are costing about $1300 with taxes and resort fees. That's more than the maintenance fee for a full week of timeshare usage in a two bedroom HHI Marriott condo.



Thanks so much! Ironically my wife and I went to Aruba for the 1st time last year and stayed at the Marriott Stellaris and loved it, and purposely went mid-September because we saw videos and heard on blogs how crowded it gets during high season. Plus most kids are back in school so for us it was a win-win staying at a non-AI resort! Now having discovered Redweek the only thing to get around would be renting from a non-verified owner, but it now has me thinking of outright buying at their Ocean club (my wife loves their newly remodeled gym!), I think the only issue is finding one in that month. Any trusted resale sites I missed that you can recommend?


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## Fasttr (Jun 4, 2018)

BulldogzRus said:


> Thanks so much! Ironically my wife and I went to Aruba for the 1st time last year and stayed at the Marriott Stellaris and loved it, and purposely went mid-September because we saw videos and heard on blogs how crowded it gets during high season. Plus most kids are back in school so for us it was a win-win staying at a non-AI resort! Now having discovered Redweek the only thing to get around would be renting from a non-verified owner, but it now has me thinking of outright buying at their Ocean club (my wife loves their newly remodeled gym!), I think the only issue is finding one in that month. Any trusted resale sites I missed that you can recommend?



Here is the resort calendar for Aruba Ocean Club.  If you like September, it appears you would be looking for a Gold season floating week.  
http://www.marriottvacationsworldwi...ndar/Marriott's_Aruba_Ocean_Club_Calendar.pdf


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## Fasttr (Jun 4, 2018)

BulldogzRus said:


> Any trusted resale sites I missed that you can recommend?


This thread lists several good brokers.....  https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/who-are-best-marriott-timeshare-agents.264482/


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## BulldogzRus (Jun 4, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> Here is the resort calendar for Aruba Ocean Club.  If you like September, it appears you would be looking for a Gold season floating week.
> http://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/helpfulTools/resortCalendar/Marriott's_Aruba_Ocean_Club_Calendar.pdf



So my understanding with Floating is that you probably need to book well in advance, so if i were to buy from someone is there another calendar I'd keep checking to see if a certain week I want is still avail.? And I assume my best bet would be RTU?

Thanks so much!


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## brianfox (Jun 4, 2018)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The 3X points on Marriott fees is pretty valuable to me, too.  I don't necessarily value 32K points at $600-$1,000, unless I transfer to Hyatt hotels or to an airline for a business or first class seat to somewhere overseas.
> 
> Maybe you know something I don't know about the value of those points.



Sorry for hijacking the thread (such an interesting topic tends to spread out to interesting sub-topics)

Since my family always travels to Hawaii (LAX-HNL or LAX-LIH) in the summer - on a weekend - a typical RT ticket is $750. 
Transferring to an airline is the way to maximize points for us.
Transferring to British Airways Avios, you can fly between LAX and the Hawaiian islands for 12.5K points each way (via American).  That would put the point value at about $.03 ($960 for 32K points).  This is because the BA point calculation is distance based, rather than destination based.  So while flying to either Orlando or Hawaii is 12.5K, clearly one is a far better value.
Transferring to Flying Blue, you can book the flight through AirFrance (via American) for 15K each way, putting the point value at about $0.025 ($800 for 32K points).
Then there's United, which at its lowest is 22.5K each way, yielding a miserable $0.012 per point ($384 for 32K points).
Unfortunately, Hawaiian is not a Chase partner, because they sometimes have one way for 17.5K.

Those seats ARE available, but you need to check often.  Lately, the Flying Blue and Avios seats are ample around 3 wks out.
Of course, if you travel in the off-season, the cash ticket costs a lot less, and the point value is therefore _much_ poorer.
But for us - a family of 4 travelling at the peak time - 100K points for 4 round trip tickets is unbeatable.

The value of points even for airline partner transfers varies wildly from person to person.  All depends on how you use them.  Technically, you could get $.10 value or even higher if you used points for a wildly expensive first class sleeper cabin, but in my opinion, you're only really getting that value if you would have otherwise paid with cash.  And very few people will pay $10000 for that sleeper cabin.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 4, 2018)

BulldogzRus said:


> Thanks so much! Ironically my wife and I went to Aruba for the 1st time last year and stayed at the Marriott Stellaris and loved it, and purposely went mid-September because we saw videos and heard on blogs how crowded it gets during high season. Plus most kids are back in school so for us it was a win-win staying at a non-AI resort! Now having discovered Redweek the only thing to get around would be renting from a non-verified owner, but it now has me thinking of outright buying at their Ocean club (my wife loves their newly remodeled gym!), I think the only issue is finding one in that month. Any trusted resale sites I missed that you can recommend?


The other element that is important when you're considering buying is when you travel. If you're someone who would regularly travel in Sept that is one of the slowest times to travel and you can often get some amazing rental deals, so good that it may not make sense to spend $5k or whatever when you can rent for MF or even a little over MF.   So if you can rent for $300 over MFs even over ten years that is a $3k cost above MFs so renting might be better than say buying a unit for say $5k. And I would bet as you followed the rental market you could find deals that were at MF for that time of year.  Do the math.


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## catharsis (Jun 4, 2018)

brianfox said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread (such an interesting topic tends to spread out to interesting sub-topics)
> 
> Since my family always travels to Hawaii (LAX-HNL or LAX-LIH) in the summer - on a weekend - a typical RT ticket is $750.
> Transferring to an airline is the way to maximize points for us.
> ...



yes but if  you used the SPG amex you'd have earned 10600 times 2 SPG points (21200) which turns into 63600 Marriott Points, which is a quarter of an MVC 5 night travel package for category 1-5 along with 120000 miles on AA or BA (or Alaskan airlines, which has much better availability and is also bookable using your BA Avios, By The Way)

I know this calculus is about to change with the new earnings rates, but since the merger the absolute best card to use for MF payments with Vistana or Marriott was the SPG amex for me.


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## jeepie (Jun 4, 2018)

Good stuff, thanks. Everyone’s situation is different. Have you also considered the Alaska Air Visa? $99 companion fare each year. Annual fee is $75. I have three of them, my kids and their spouses each have them. A good deal if you’re paying $750 per ticket (or $1,500 over Christmas!). Cheers.


brianfox said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread (such an interesting topic tends to spread out to interesting sub-topics)
> 
> Since my family always travels to Hawaii (LAX-HNL or LAX-LIH) in the summer - on a weekend - a typical RT ticket is $750.
> Transferring to an airline is the way to maximize points for us.
> ...


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## brianfox (Jun 4, 2018)

catharsis said:


> yes but if  you used the SPG amex you'd have earned 10600 times 2 SPG points (21200) which turns into 63600 Marriott Points, which is a quarter of an MVC 5 night travel package for category 1-5 along with 120000 miles on AA or BA (or Alaskan airlines, which has much better availability and is also bookable using your BA Avios, By The Way)
> 
> I know this calculus is about to change with the new earnings rates, but since the merger the absolute best card to use for MF payments with Vistana or Marriott was the SPG amex for me.



I never quite understood SPG and Marriott points for people who typically use miles for airline tickets.  Thank you for the start of a learning experience.  I googled a bit and found this, which seems to have a good explanation for what you are proposing.  If I understand correctly, you can exchange Marriott Points for a travel package that includes a combination of miles and a certificate for a hotel stay.  The number of miles you get is dependent on the airline you choose.  And now that the merger is done, you can use the SPG Amex to get the SPG points which have a Marriott Point equivalence.

*Warning: Tortured math ahead!  Skip if you don't care.*
So I did the "what if" math and paying my MF using the SPG card would, as you said, get 63600 Marriott points, which is 23.5% of the way to the travel package.  Using that same ratio, and same Hawaii in Summer ticket value I assumed (booking through BA at 12.5K Avios one way), would yield an airfare value of $848 for the 63600 Marriott points.
But then there is the hotel stay.  Using the 23.5% value, that gives 1.6 nights at a Category 1-5.   I would normally use that for a yearly stay in Orlando, so I put the value at a Residence Inn that I would probably stay at ($109 a night).  That brings the "package value" of my spend on Maintenance Fees to around $1027, which is in fact slightly better than the $960 for the Chase points.

I definitely see the merits of the SPG.  Now that I understand it better and have done the math, I'm happy that my current approach is not woefully worse.  I plan to stick with Chase because I have several Chase cards I use to maximize category bonuses, along with an Amex I use to maximize other bonuses.  My spending is fragmented and complicated enough at the moment (my wife HATES credit card roulette).  But I'll keep this in the back of my mind.  Thanks again for the info.


EDIT: Regarding Alaskan, my problem with them is that never see direct flights from LAX-Hawaii on Alaskan (at least when searching for points).  They all seem to be through SEA (which the wife would never accept).  I only get to push the buttons; she makes the decisions.  Hence a happy marriage...


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## SueDonJ (Jun 4, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Even if Marriott didn't want to or couldn't outlaw rentals outright, they certainly could inhibit it to where it may not be practical. The Reservation Procedures; updated in 2010 for each resort does allow the reservation agent (MVCI) to institute lottery systems for certain high demand weeks.



"Commercial activity" restrictions, lottery systems for reservations of high-demand intervals, restricting consecutive-year reservations for high-demand intervals, etc ... there are a number of items that MVW could choose to implement in order to more fairly distribute the high-demand floating intervals among all eligible owners.  I think I'm remembering like you are that the 2010 update mentioned a few specifically but many have been written into the governing docs from the inception of each resort.  It appears that the later a resort opened, the more of these restrictions are in the docs - for example, SurfWatch's has all the things I mentioned plus more.

If MVW wanted to crack down on owner rentals they could do exactly what DVC did several years ago and put a number on the annual number of reservations in a single account to which an owner could add a guest name.  I believe DVC's number is 10.  It probably would be possible for them to also implement a pro-rated limitation based on a percentage of the total number, so that an owner holding 10 reservations would be allowed fewer guest additions than an owner with 20.

I like that owners have the right to privately rent out their ownerships and I've taken advantage of that right - nowhere near the extent that you could call what I do a commercial venture, but for several years recently I've done rentals that covered-plus my MF's via an established broker.*  I wouldn't want to see that ability go away but I definitely think something needs to be done about the mega-renters who monopolize high-demand intervals, especially when you consider that owner rentals are becoming much more commonplace via social media.  When it gets to the point that owners aren't able to book floating intervals similarly to the established pattern they'd previously enjoyed, it's a problem.

*Getting back to the original question, my MF's for three Weeks were approx $4,470 this year.


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## ilene13 (Jun 4, 2018)

Sue,  the restrictions in the Surfwatch docs are also in the Aruba Ocean Club docs.  They have never been followed by Marriott.


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## BulldogzRus (Jun 5, 2018)

MOXJO7282 said:


> The other element that is important when you're considering buying is when you travel. If you're someone who would regularly travel in Sept that is one of the slowest times to travel and you can often get some amazing rental deals, so good that it may not make sense to spend $5k or whatever when you can rent for MF or even a little over MF.   So if you can rent for $300 over MFs even over ten years that is a $3k cost above MFs so renting might be better than say buying a unit for say $5k. And I would bet as you followed the rental market you could find deals that were at MF for that time of year.  Do the math.



That's exactly what I was thinking! As I said because we have no children it is beneficial for us to travel at that time because Aruba weather is great year round and outside of the hurricane belt. So not only can we avoid the crowds (better service/access to amenities), we can also have an almost AI experience without paying for it! In your experience, is there much fraud in the timeshare rental market? I always see great unverified rentals, but not sure what is the best screening method beyond contacting the timeshare and verifying the owner and the dates avail.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 5, 2018)

BulldogzRus said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking! As I said because we have no children it is beneficial for us to travel at that time because Aruba weather is great year round and outside of the hurricane belt. So not only can we avoid the crowds (better service/access to amenities), we can also have an almost AI experience without paying for it! In your experience, is there much fraud in the timeshare rental market? I always see great unverified rentals, but not sure what is the best screening method beyond contacting the timeshare and verifying the owner and the dates avail.



If you deal with Redweek, and you should if you're looking for a Marriott, then the risk of a bad apple is almost zero if you even just do the basic due diligence. First RW is a paid site so the seller has to pay for an acct for $15 or what ever it is and then the ad cost $25 or so with a valid credit card so the likelihood of a scammer is extremely low.  I really do think the route to go for those that can travel in shoulder/low season is to just rent through RW.   I think that would be the most cost effective with virtually no risk in my book.


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## BulldogzRus (Jun 5, 2018)

MOXJO7282 said:


> If you deal with Redweek, and you should if you're looking for a Marriott, then the risk of a bad apple is almost zero if you even just do the basic due diligence. First RW is a paid site so the seller has to pay for an acct for $15 or what ever it is and then the ad cost $25 or so with a valid credit card so the likelihood of a scammer is extremely low.  I really do think the route to go for those that can travel in shoulder/low season is to just rent through RW.   I think that would be the most cost effective with virtually no risk in my book.


Thanks so much for your prompts replies. This is such a great resource for those of us new to all of this!


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## JIMinNC (Jun 5, 2018)

MOXJO7282 said:


> If you deal with Redweek, and you should if you're looking for a Marriott, then the risk of a bad apple is almost zero if you even just do the basic due diligence. First RW is a paid site so the seller has to pay for an acct for $15 or what ever it is and then the ad cost $25 or so with a valid credit card so the likelihood of a scammer is extremely low.  I really do think the route to go for those that can travel in shoulder/low season is to just rent through RW.   I think that would be the most cost effective with virtually no risk in my book.



I agree the realistic scam risk is very low with Redweek (but I don't think that has anything to do with the $15/$25 fees - if you're trying to pull a $2000 rental scam, $40 is peanuts). I think there is also what I might call "amateur" risk - basically the risk that the person you are dealing with does something wrong that results in you arriving on site with an invalid reservation. Good due diligence on the renter's part can probably mitigate that risk to a great extent, though. In the end, however, the real issue is probably "can you sleep at night?" It's this last issue that causes me to be unwilling to rent from individuals. I would worry all the way until check-in that we would show up and something would be wrong with the reservation. I just don't have a lot of confidence in P2P transactions with strangers and prefer to deal with big companies, so that worry factor makes P2P rentals just not worth it for me. But if the OP isn't the worrying type, and can rest easy with a P2P transaction, I agree that for off-season trips like Sept in Aruba, they can probably rent on Redweek for the cost of the maintenance fee with minimal realistic risk.


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 5, 2018)

A note I see when looking up Playa Andaluza resort on MVCI.com:

"There has been significant commentary in the press regarding restrictions on tourist rentals in Spain (especially in the Balearic Islands and Catalonia) in 2017. We would like to advise you that MVCI Management, S.L. is the licensed and only entity permitted to rent property at MVCI resorts in Spain on behalf of itself or owners. Owners who list their week for rent on their own, or through third parties, are at risk of incurring fines up to the value of EUR 400,000. Due to the complex nature of the relevant legislation in Spain, we encourage you to obtain legal advice regarding your individual circumstances prior to renting your weeks outside of the MVCI Rental Programme."

Ouch!


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## bazzap (Jun 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> A note I see when looking up Playa Andaluza resort on MVCI.com:
> 
> "There has been significant commentary in the press regarding restrictions on tourist rentals in Spain (especially in the Balearic Islands and Catalonia) in 2017. We would like to advise you that MVCI Management, S.L. is the licensed and only entity permitted to rent property at MVCI resorts in Spain on behalf of itself or owners. Owners who list their week for rent on their own, or through third parties, are at risk of incurring fines up to the value of EUR 400,000. Due to the complex nature of the relevant legislation in Spain, we encourage you to obtain legal advice regarding your individual circumstances prior to renting your weeks outside of the MVCI Rental Programme."
> 
> Ouch!


Another subject for speculation, but seemingly (and if so disappontingly from MVC) scaremongering.
https://doctor-timeshare.com/rent-out-your-timeshare/
*Renting your Timeshare in Spain*
Owners of timeshare weeks in Europe have recently received a notification regarding the restrictions on tourist rentals in Spain and advising owners who wish to rent their timeshares to only use the Developer’s rental programme.

We have participated to multiple conferences related to this new Tourism law in Mallorca and Valencia, and we wish to reassure you that for many reasons *this law has no consequences for Marriott timeshare owners*, but rather to crack down on unlicensed apartments and private properties.

If you would like to learn more about it, do not hesitate to contact us. We day by day keep ourselves informed on the development of this new law and we would be happy to advise you.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 5, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree the realistic scam risk is very low with Redweek (but I don't think that has anything to do with the $15/$25 fees - if you're trying to pull a $2000 rental scam, $40 is peanuts).


Membership fees however leave a paper trail. Scammers don't like that and usually avoid paying fees with a method that can be tracked.


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## catharsis (Jun 5, 2018)

brianfox said:


> EDIT: Regarding Alaskan, my problem with them is that never see direct flights from LAX-Hawaii on Alaskan (at least when searching for points).  They all seem to be through SEA (which the wife would never accept).  I only get to push the buttons; she makes the decisions.  Hence a happy marriage...



I laugh because when trying to obtain SEA-HNL recently I keep only seeing availability through LAX


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## Colt Seavers (Jun 6, 2018)

brianfox said:


> Since my family always travels to Hawaii (LAX-HNL or LAX-LIH) in the summer - on a weekend - a typical RT ticket is $750.
> Transferring to an airline is the way to maximize points for us.
> Transferring to British Airways Avios, you can fly between LAX and the Hawaiian islands for 12.5K points each way (via American).  That would put the point value at about $.03 ($960 for 32K points).  This is because the BA point calculation is distance based, rather than destination based.  So while flying to either Orlando or Hawaii is 12.5K, clearly one is a far better value.



I think your numbers here are a bit optimistic.  I've traveled to different islands three times over the last several summers and never paid over $600, sometimes even getting it under $500.  If you're going to compare the super-cheap point rate you should compare it to the lowest available cash fare to be consistent.

Also, from June to August I see only 4 days (all in August) where there is availability for LAX-HNL at the lowest AA miles rate, which is apparently the only one eligible for the 12.5k BA rate.  I don't know what the overall availability is when planning ahead but it looks pretty limited based on my brief research.

It is interesting to know about the BA trick so thank you for that.  I'll go out on a limb and assume they will change their rules in the near future to mirror what other airlines have done where the miles requirement changes along with the cash rate.


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## brianfox (Jun 6, 2018)

Colt Seavers said:


> I think your numbers here are a bit optimistic.  I've traveled to different islands three times over the last several summers and never paid over $600, sometimes even getting it under $500.  If you're going to compare the super-cheap point rate you should compare it to the lowest available cash fare to be consistent.
> 
> Also, from June to August I see only 4 days (all in August) where there is availability for LAX-HNL at the lowest AA miles rate, which is apparently the only one eligible for the 12.5k BA rate.  I don't know what the overall availability is when planning ahead but it looks pretty limited based on my brief research.
> 
> It is interesting to know about the BA trick so thank you for that.  I'll go out on a limb and assume they will change their rules in the near future to mirror what other airlines have done where the miles requirement changes along with the cash rate.



I agree with you, and I am using the fare that corresponds to the low points.  I've been personally tracking this for our last 5 trips to Hawaii in summer.  It's been pretty consistent.  What has NOT been consistent is the availability of the seats.  Used to be that you could reserve that 12.5K seat in January for a July trip.  Nowadays that deal may appear for just a single day here and there up until June.  Then in mid-June, the seats become plentiful.  British Airways releases 7 seats at a time.

One tool I have found invaluable is ExpertFlyer.  It's a subscription service, but you can set up a search for, say, 4 super-saver seats on AA.  They will check every day and Email when they are available.  Then you grab them.  But this year I got zero notifications even up until now, so seats are definitely getting harder to find.  It will be interesting to see how the Volcano affects HI travel this year.


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## SMB1 (Jun 8, 2018)

SueDonJ said:


> "Commercial activity" restrictions, lottery systems for reservations of high-demand intervals, restricting consecutive-year reservations for high-demand intervals, etc ... there are a number of items that MVW could choose to implement in order to more fairly distribute the high-demand floating intervals among all eligible owners.  I think I'm remembering like you are that the 2010 update mentioned a few specifically but many have been written into the governing docs from the inception of each resort.  It appears that the later a resort opened, the more of these restrictions are in the docs - for example, SurfWatch's has all the things I mentioned plus more.



I would hate to see some of these restrictions.  Those of us who work the system, call and are on the website the exact moment reservations open up for a desired week or check several times a day until a desired reservation is available, would be limited to lower demand weeks and others who may not be so aggressive in planning and reserving weeks might get those weeks. Just because of a lottery? Or because I worked hard last year too?  Seems like reverse discrimination.



SueDonJ said:


> I like that owners have the right to privately rent out their ownerships and I've taken advantage of that right - nowhere near the extent that you could call what I do a commercial venture, but for several years recently I've done rentals that covered-plus my MF's via an established broker.*  I wouldn't want to see that ability go away but I definitely think something needs to be done about the mega-renters who monopolize high-demand intervals, especially when you consider that owner rentals are becoming much more commonplace via social media.  When it gets to the point that owners aren't able to book floating intervals similarly to the established pattern they'd previously enjoyed, it's a problem.



This I agree with.


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## TravelTime (Jun 10, 2018)

We fly from SFO to all islands in Hawaii for approx $500 round trip. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.


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## pedro47 (Jun 10, 2018)

TravelTime, H E L P!!!

What airlines  do you use?  Please name all. Thanks for your assistance on this subject. We liked to travel from late March to the end of May and also from October to mid December.

We want to vacation two (2) consecutive  weeks in Hawaii.

Sounds liked we need to fly from the east coast and stay a couple days/nights in San Francisco before and after visiting Hawaii.


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## TravelTime (Jun 10, 2018)

pedro47 said:


> TravelTime, H E L P!!!
> 
> What airlines  do you use?  Please name all. Thanks for your assistance on this subject. We liked to travel from late March to the end of May and also from October to mid December.
> 
> ...



We have traveled from SFO and SJC to all the islands of Hawaii on United, American, Alaska Air and Hawaii Air. United or Alaska Air tend to be our preferred airlines from SFO and SJC. I just look for the best deal. I rarely use points for flying to Hawaii bc we save our points for Business First Class for long distance nonstop flights. With Hawaii, you need to book at least 6 months in advance to get prices at or under $500 RT. We last flew to Oahu in Hawaiian Air for under $500 pp round trip but we did not like the airplane bc it did not have wifi and the plane seemed old.


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## pedro47 (Jun 11, 2018)

To TravelTime Thanks for the information.


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## StevenTing (Jun 18, 2018)

Getting back to the original topic, up to this point, we have 141 people that have participated in the poll.  Using $1000 for the lowest tier and the minimum amount for the others, Tuggers that participated in the poll pay at least $740,000 in maintenance fees per year to Marriott.


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## TravelTime (Jun 18, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> Getting back to the original topic, up to this point, we have 141 people that have participated in the poll.  Using $1000 for the lowest tier and the minimum amount for the others, Tuggers that participated in the poll pay at least $740,000 in maintenance fees per year to Marriott.



And this does not include MFs paid to Vistana or Hyatt which are now part of the MVC family.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> And this does not include MFs paid to Vistana or Hyatt which are now part of the MVC family.


Not officially part of it yet.


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## TravelTime (Jun 18, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Not officially part of it yet.



Yes, I know. I just meant that if Steve included Vistana and Hyatt MFs in his calculations, it would probably double his minimum calculation. If the point is to show how TUG members support MVC, then once they officially merge, Steve could make an even more powerful statement!


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## frank808 (Jun 18, 2018)

To add some humor to Steve that started this poll.

We pay too much in mf every December as my checking account hurts .  Well actually Jan as I charge it then have to pay for it in Jan.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Fasttr (Jun 18, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> Getting back to the original topic, up to this point, we have 141 people that have participated in the poll.  Using $1000 for the lowest tier and the minimum amount for the others, Tuggers that participated in the poll pay at least $740,000 in maintenance fees per year to Marriott.


And to put that into perspective.... that equates to the annual electricity expense line item at Grande Ocean resort.  So 1 expense line item at 1 resort.  Shows how small of a sample our little corner of the world here at TUG really is.


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## MICROZE (Dec 8, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> I know that many of us are savvy in the ways of Marriott and have many weeks/points in the system.  I've added up all of my maintenance fees and I'm paying about $11,000 per year.  I wanted to get a feel of how invested people are with Marriott.
> 
> The poll should be anonymous.



TOTAL: $14262.32 [Marriott + Vistana]
Marriott: $7305.83 [5500-DCP] + [1 x MKO-2BR-EY] + [1 x MRD-2BR-EY]
Westin: $6956.49 [3 x WLR-2BR-EOY] + [3 x WKV-2BR-EY]
All of the above weeks are Platinum/Platinum+ Peak-Season.

In addition we spend between $2K - $3K in Interval-Fees [Exchange + E-Plus + Size-Upgrade]
The above gets us about 15-Weeks [after locking-off] of vacation every year.​


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