# Greater "bang for the buck" Wyndham Resorts



## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 4, 2012)

How much variation is there in the Wyndham system of annual maintenance fees per points.  I have a 154,000 annual membership at the Old Town Alexandria Resort, and I think the maintenance fees are a bit north of $750 annually.  Are there memberships at other Wyndham home resorts that give you a similar amount of points for a significantly lower maintenance fee?

In other words, is there a "best bang for the buck" resort if one rarely intends to stay at their home resort?


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## Cheryl20772 (Mar 4, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> How much variation is there in the Wyndham system of annual maintenance fees per points.  I have a 154,000 annual membership at the Old Town Alexandria Resort, and I think the maintenance fees are a bit north of $750 annually.  Are there memberships at other Wyndham home resorts that give you a similar amount of points for a significantly lower maintenance fee?
> 
> In other words, is there a "best bang for the buck" resort if one rarely intends to stay at their home resort?



You are paying $750/154=$4.87 per thousand points.
I own at Panama City and pay $3.81 per thousand points.  There are other things to consider such as what is your tax and is included in that calculation.  My payment includes $.14 per thousand points property tax.  Another consideration is how many points it costs you to use your home resort and how much is being put into the reserve fund for future expenses.  My payment includes $.46 per thousand points for the reserve fund.  Will that be enough?  Panama City is a relatively new resort still under developer control.  If points needed per room is higher at Panama City, there is more money coming in per room for fees than there is at a less points expensive resort.

So, to answer your question, yes, there are resorts that provide same points for less MF, but are they the wisest purchase?  Only time can answer that.  Panama City is on the Gulf of Mexico and one badly placed hurricane could provide a sure answer to your question.  Hurricanes come through the DC area, but without nearly the force of those down in Florida.  Alexandria is an older resort now with a track record to indicate whether or not reserves are sufficient to cover needed updates to furnishings.  Lots of things to consider.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 4, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> ... In other words, is there a "best bang for the buck" resort if one rarely intends to stay at their home resort?



Here is a example that I hope answers your question:

Seawatch     	Wyndham Myrtle Beach 

Total HOA Fee:  Total HOA Fee for 1,000 Points: $5.25   Program Rate for 1,000 Points: $0.53                VIP
CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Assessment:  Annual Fee: = $2,086.58                                                Regular   Platinum
Prime Week Points Needed:  203,000 for 2 bedroom   VIP Platinum:  101,500   Cost Per week   1,065.75  532.88
Quite Week Points Needed:   126,000 for 2 bedroom   VIP Platinum:   63.000    Cost Per week:    661.50 330.75

     	Wyndham Smoky Mountains 	

Total HOA Fee:  Total HOA Fee for 1,000 Points: $4.17   Program Rate for 1,000 Points: $0.53
CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Assessment:   $756.70                                           
Prime Week Points Needed:  166,000   2 bedroom    VIP Platinum:  83,000          Cost Per week:   692.22   346.11 
Quite Week Points Needed:   105,000    2 bedroom   VIP Platinum:  55,500          Cost Per week:  437.85   218.93


Towers on the Grove	Wyndham Myrtle Beach Towers on the Grove 	

Total HOA Fee:  Total HOA Fee for 1,000 Points: $4.34     Program Rate for 1,000 Points: $0.53
CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Assessment:   $409.08
Prime Week Points Needed:  189,000   2 bedroom     VIP Platinum:   94.500       Cost Per Week:   820.26   410.13
Quite Week Points Needed:   104,000   2 bedroom     VIP Platinum:   52,000       Cost Per Week:  410.13   205.07

Westwinds     	Wyndham Myrtle Beach 	

Total HOA Fee:  Total HOA Fee for 1,000 points $5.77      Program Rate for 1,000 Points: $0.53
CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Assessment:  Annual Fee: $1,938.60 
Prime Week Points Needed:  175,000  2 bedroom     VIP Platinum:     62,500      Cost Per Week:  1009.75  504.88
Quite Week Points Needed:    77,000   2 bedroom     VIP Platinum:    38,500       Cost Per Week:  444.29   222.15

NOTE:  The points cited are based off of the Members Directory and may be more or less via the computer.
NOTE:  Availability in Peak Season may not be there for peak seasons for non-ARP reservations.

NOTE:  VIP Discounts may not be available for Myrtle Beach for peak season.
NOTE:  The program fees were not included in the above calulations.  Sorry about the mistake.


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## ronparise (Mar 5, 2012)

There are some fixed weeks that have been converted to points where the mf is under $3.50/1000..Kingsgate 3 bed lockoff in the summer comes to mind...SanFrancisco udi is in that range,  National Harbor is under $4..Smokey Mountains is an old favorite and in that range too

I own a converted off-season fixed week where I pay over $7  (its small and came in a larger package of points I bought so it doesnt hurt too bad) 



So you see there is a wide range...it pays to shop for the best combination of purchase price and mf


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 5, 2012)

Ron, in your opinion, do you think National Harbor will keep Low Maintenance fees once they are done with active sales? I'd love having a TS that close to DC, and ARP would come in handy for the Cherry Blossom time frame....maybe i could finally get the parents to travel with me..But if the MF is going to double in just a couple years...i'm not sure if it'll be worth it


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## rrlongwell (Mar 5, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ron, in your opinion, do you think National Harbor will keep Low Maintenance fees once they are done with active sales? I'd love having a TS that close to DC, and ARP would come in handy for the Cherry Blossom time frame....maybe i could finally get the parents to travel with me..But if the MF is going to double in just a couple years...i'm not sure if it'll be worth it



Doubtful it will be double in the next few years, last I heard, the new sales are going to Club Wyndham Access, do not know how many deeded properties are there, I think there a decent number.  You may also want to take a peak (see above) at Towers on the Grove for a deeded property, if they are still on the market and not part of the Club Wyndham Access program.  I am not sure how many of them are out there.


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## ronparise (Mar 5, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ron, in your opinion, do you think National Harbor will keep Low Maintenance fees once they are done with active sales? I'd love having a TS that close to DC, and ARP would come in handy for the Cherry Blossom time frame....maybe i could finally get the parents to travel with me..But if the MF is going to double in just a couple years...i'm not sure if it'll be worth it



I have an argument as to why I think that National Harbor fees will stay low (but most everyone on tug disagrees with me)

1) Look at  maintenance fees as dollars per week, rather than dollars per point and you will see mf at NH is actually not low.. A two bedroom   in prime time is 250000 points...at $3.75/1000 (I think) that works out to   $937.   Now lets compare that to a 2 bedroom week in prime time at New Bern NC that I own..$755 mf,  154000 points  $4.90/1000 .... The mf/week is more at National Harbor  not less   Point inflation makes the mf per point less. but the actual mf paid to the resort for maintenance and reserves is more at National Harbor

2)  National Harbor is an urban resort..there are no grounds to maintain, and no roads there is no gate, and there is no parking...all these things at other resorts cost money to maintain..and they dont have to be maintained here. 

3) Wyndhams National Harbor Resort is located within a "new town"  and the town is essentially a big condominium...National Harbor pays a "master condo" fee to maintain all the city services, like roads and  parks. In otherwords the cost of these things is shared among the other members of that Master Association, like the Gaylord hotel. and Wyndham cant inflate these costs like I think they do at other places to fatten their bottom line

4) if you drive to National Harbor you will pay $17 a day to park (I think thats the number) and by the way you will wish you had a car here  if you dont.  Compare that $17 a day to Bonnet Creek or Daytona, or most of the Wyndham properties and you will see a vacation here costs $119 a week more than most of the others. Add that to your already high maintenance fee that we calculated above and you get  up over $1050...is that cheap?

5) National Harbor rents retail space to a CVS.  That income ought to be income to the association and at least partially offset the fees paid by owners.


So  I dont think National Harbor maintenance fees are low. and I dont think they will go up any more than any other property in the system, and for the reasons outlined above, I think National Harbor mf will in fact go up less than the others

The one thing that I dont know is what part of the current mf is devoted to reserves. Probably not enough. This is where Wyndham can "cheat" and keep fees lower than they should be. I used to live in Maryland and work for the State Government.. I know the rules require a fair estimate of future costs be made and reserves to be deposited to cover those future costs, from day one. But this an an area where developers can cheat and get away with it, by under-estimating future costs, or over-estimating remaining life


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## rrlongwell (Mar 5, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I think National Harbor is down to $10 a night for parking.


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 7, 2012)

Hmmm, so three follow-up questions:

(1) Some people have lower maintenance fees per point, but I am wondering whether that may be because the developer is temporarily subsidizing the cost while the units are still being sold.  Any idea whether that might be the case?

(2) One poster indicated that the "best" fee per point ratio is enjoyed by memberships that were converted from weeks to points.  Are memberships like this primarily clustered in certain properties?  Is it ever possible to acquire these units resale?

(3) I would be willing to undertake the hastle/cost of selling my Old Town Alexandria membership and acquiring a membership (re-sale) at a different Wyndham resort if the maintenance fee cost savings would likely cover the transfer costs of this process within 5 to 10 years.  Does anyone have an instinct on whether this is worth it?  And if so, what new resort should I aim for?  In case it is relevant, We have very young children and currently vacation primarily in Florida, Southern CA, and (if we can ever get in) Newport Road Island.  As our kids get older, we hope they would like Washington DC and Williamsburg, but that is a long way off.

Thanks for any recommendations.


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## e.bram (Mar 7, 2012)

Ron:
Manhattan Club is in an urban(like National Harbor)  area with RE taxes and sky high MFs.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 7, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> ... I would be willing to undertake the hastle/cost of selling my Old Town Alexandria membership and acquiring a membership (re-sale) at a different Wyndham resort if the maintenance fee cost savings would likely cover the transfer costs of this process within 5 to 10 years.  Does anyone have an instinct on whether this is worth it?  ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ronparise (Mar 7, 2012)

e.bram said:


> Ron:
> Manhattan Club is in an urban(like National Harbor)  area with RE taxes and sky high MFs.



I dont think I would compare Manhattan with any other city in the US..National Harbor is a little piss-ant real estate development...Manhattan is well.... Manhattan

But my point is the same...maintenance fees are high at National Harbor


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## rrlongwell (Mar 7, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I dont think I would compare Manhattan with any other city in the US..National Harbor is a little piss-ant real estate development...Manhattan is well.... Manhattan
> 
> But my point is the same...maintenance fees are high at National Harbor



How harsh a description coming from a former resident of Maryland.


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## ronparise (Mar 7, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> Hmmm, so three follow-up questions:
> 
> (1) Some people have lower maintenance fees per point, but I am wondering whether that may be because the developer is temporarily subsidizing the cost while the units are still being sold.  Any idea whether that might be the case?
> 
> ...



1) Sure the developer has to support a HOA during the sales phase, and I think they cheat on their estimates for reserves, but I dont think its enough to make a difference...More to the point its a gradual thing...as more and more units are sold, the support needed by the developer becomes less and less (because there are more and more owners to collect fees from)..so there is never a point in time when the developer support is there and then its gone and all of a sudden fees go up...If they go up it will be a little at a time

2) Look at the points charts for your answer..3 bedroom lockoffs in prime season that convert to lots of points is where to start looking..then find out what the mf is and do the math...Some of the Hawaii resorts, also Williamsburg are the first that come to mind...I would imagine one of the 4 bedroom lockoffs at Governors Green would work well..they convert to 308000 points.. I know there are weeks at Kingsgate that come in under $3.50/1000

3) my gut says not worth it..As I recall  Old Town fees are not that high...Ebay may not be the most efficient market place but its the best we've got....follow it for a while and you will see how the better the mf, the higher the bids...I think you will find your trade to be a wash..but Im just guessing..play with the numbers for a while


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## ronparise (Mar 7, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> How harsh a description coming from a former resident of Maryland.



Not just a Maryland resident, I grew up in the same Prince Georges County. County.  National Harbor is built on the old Smoot Sand and Gravel mine, and its just downstream from the largest sewage treatment plant in the world...over 300 million gallons a day ....There are reasons why this place is on the brink of collapse.  I thought I was being nice..


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## rrlongwell (Mar 7, 2012)

ronparise said:


> Not just a Maryland resident, I grew up in the same Prince Georges County. County.  National Harbor is built on the old Smoot Sand and Gravel mine, and its just downstream from the largest sewage treatment plant in the world...over 300 million gallons a day ....There are reasons why this place is on the brink of collapse.  I thought I was being nice..



Oh, I did not know that.  I guess in light of the facts, the former Maryland Resident did give the best possable description.  I knew I liked Old Town Alexandria better, I could not just put my finger on why.


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 10, 2012)

It seems to me that the only two significant reasons to care about where your home resort is within the Wyndham points system are:

(1) The maintenance fees per point ratio, and

(2) The 13 month booking window (compared to 10 months in non-home resorts).

From the posts above, it seems clear that there are other resorts/memberships that offer a lower maintenance fee per point ratio than the unit I current own.  Incidentally, my maintenance fees are not as low as I thought.  I checked my most recent statement and my annual fees are now up to $839 per year (including taxes & program fees).   Since I have 154,000 annual points, that’s a ratio of $5.45 per thousand points, which is more than 40% higher than the $3.50 Kingsgate ratio that another poster noted.  

Thus, if I could get a membership at around $3.50 per thousand points that would save me $300 per year, which over time would seem likely to cover and eventually exceed the cost of the conversion (assuming that I could cost effectively find the new membership re-sale on Ebay or tug).  Thus, from a purely financial perspective, it would seem that the only major argument against converting (other than the hastle) would be if the units with maintenance fees in the $3.50 per thousand range have somehow artificially deflated their maintenance fees (low reserves, subsidization by developer, etc.) in an unsustainable way that will likely cause maintenance fees to rise more than average over the next decade.  I suppose I need to do more research into Kingsgate and other spots to determine this.

Of course, the other major factor in choosing a home resort would seem to be the 13 month booking window (compared to 10 months for non-home resorts).  This is really only relevant if one owns in a home resort in which high demand (larger) room types routinely get completely booked for prime periods during the 13 month booking window (i.e. prior to 10 months).  In this area, I am sort of clueless as to whether Old Town Alexandria falls into this category.  I have never had trouble booking there.  However,  I have actually never tried,  10 months or less ahead of time, to book the largest size unit at Old Town Alexandria during high demand periods (such as Cherry Blossom / April Vacation).  Anyone have any thoughts on whether having access to the 13 month booking window is important at Old Town Alexandria?  As well as what other resorts it is important at?

If I were to try to make a switch, the perfect combination, I suppose, would be to find a low MF ratio at a resort that I want to go to but which I would not otherwise reliably be able to book a large unit during high demand periods.  As a northeasterner, that means the usual: Florida (for winter/spring), Newport (for summer),  etc.   My wife and I like DC, but our kids are very young, so they likely won’t start to appreciate the delights of Washington DC for another 8-10 years at least.  

The problem of course is that I suspect that the resorts with the lowest maintenance fee ratios are also likely among the least desirable.  Am I wrong about that?


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## rrlongwell (Mar 10, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> ... The problem of course is that I suspect that the resorts with the lowest maintenance fee ratios are also likely among the least desirable.  Am I wrong about that?



That is an assumtion that is not neccessaly corrrect.  Look at Smokey Mountain in Tennsesse.  I do not know but I have heard it said that Club Wyndham Access is at $5.50 per thousand.  If that is true, than it appears you are below their blended maintance fee average.  

I just looked at E-Bay for Wyndham.  I found three timeshares in Myrtle Beach, 6 Timeshares in Williamsburg, Va., and 1 (maybe two got different numbers here when I counted) for Smokey Mountain, Tenn.  

I have been to these resorts (either by staying their or looking at them, with the exception of the Cottages in Myrtle Beach).  All appear to be in good to excellent shape.

Kingsgate has a usage fee, last heard, for the actual occupants of the unit.  It is a per head fee.  So their maintaince fee rate is not the whole story.

The people who believe a Wyndham Point is a Wyndham Point, which is basically what you are discussing, does not take into account do you want an underlying deed at good/excellent resorts (re-sale prices likely to rise as the market recovers) or low demand/weak resorts that who knows what is likely to occur.  

The decision is always yours.  I do not think anyone knows the answer.

Just as a side note, I have been to a number of Wyndham Sales pitches that echo your point that you can save money over time by getting rid of higher Maintance Fee properties and buy from the developer lower maintance fee properties.  I have never been able to replicate their numbers.  I suspect the same would hold true for the re-sale numbers if all costs involved in the transactions were considered.  This is further componded by a risk element for dealing in the re-sale timeshare market.

You may want to check out re-sale asking prices and number of listed units at the resorts you are interested in on the redweek site.  I was plesantly surprised on the lack of available units and the relatively high re-sale price (compared to E-Bay) for the resorts I checked (Seawatch Plantation, Ocean Blvd., Westwind, Kingsgate).

Just as a side note, I saw on the Redweek site an option for a reputable timeshare escrow/title insurance company.


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## ronparise (Mar 10, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> It seems to me that the only two significant reasons to care about where your home resort is within the Wyndham points system are:
> 
> (1) The maintenance fees per point ratio, and
> 
> ...



If you can save $300 a year, Id go for it..There is demand for your Old Town ownership and although, as you suggest some of the less popular resorts have a low mf, the low mf will attract interest and bidders. I think you will probably be able to pull off an even swap or maybe even make a buck or two

You are wrong I think in assuming that the lower mf properties are less desirable...there is nothing  wrong with National Harbor, and SanFrancisco. and people seem to like Williamsburg...Of course if you believe that a point is a point in the Wyndham system (and you must or you wouldnt be talking about giving up Old Town) Then it doesnt make any difference.


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 10, 2012)

Before I finalize my decision, the question, I guess, is why is Wyndham Old Town Alexandria a relatively popular resort?  

Is it because:

(1) Its largest rooms regularly book out before the 10 month booking window, and thus one needs to own there to get good reservations? (to be clear, I don't know that this happens, I'm just speculating)

or

(2)  It is a deeded property that people think would be safe if Wyndham went bankrupt.

or

(3) Although Old Town Alexandria is not hard to book from other home resorts (again, I don't know one way or the other), there is a misconception among buyers that they need to own at OTA in order to reliably book there?


Since its as expensive (if not more so) than many other resorts, and since the Wyndham points system allows owners at any resort to book at it (10 months out) I would think that its apparent popularity would have to be due to one of the three reasons above.  Maybe I'm missing something though.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 10, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> ... Since its as expensive (if not more so) than many other resorts ...



Actually, I believe, it is cheaper than the whole Club Wyndham Access Program.  Also, it's popularity is probably driven by the fact that if you want a decent timeshare in Washington D.C, and the immediate surrounding area you can chose between Wyndham National Harbor and Wyndham Old Town Alexandria.  There are no other decent timeshares under any name that I am aware of.  If you have stayed in both, I think you would agree, Old Town Alexandria wins hands down.  A lot of Wyndham owners must agree because, at least to me, availability is much easyier at National Harbor than at Old Town Alexandria.

Spoted checked a 3 day reservation for both locations for March 26, 2012:

Old Town Alexandria, 1 bedroom deluxe, 54,000 points   VIP Platinum 27,000 points
National Harbor,        1 bedroom deluxe, 99,000 points   VIP Platinum 33,900 points  upgrades to a 2 bedroom deluxe with balcony

As is apparent for this spot check, National Harbor is more expensive as it relates to points than Old Town Alexandria for a non-VIP member.  For a VIP Platinum member, it is slightly more points for National Harbor, however, this is more than eliminated by the upgrade to the 2 bedroom deluxe with balcony.  Additionally, there is a 10 dollar per night parking fee at National Habor where parking is free at Old Town Alexandria.

In all fairness to National Harbor, the easyiet upgrades to 3 bedroom units is National Harbor.

If $5.50 per thousand is used for a cost adding in the parking fee, the costs for non-VIP members become:

Old Town Alexandria:  $ 297.00 or $  99 per night           $ 49.50 for VIP Platium for a 1 bedroom
National Harbor:         $ 574.60 or $ 191.50 per night      $ 63.84 for VIP Platium for a 2 bedroom deluxe with balcony (this gives effect to the upgrade)


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 11, 2012)

Rrlongwell said: “Actually, I believe, it is cheaper than the whole Club Wyndham Access Program.”

First, a big thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post of this thread.  It has been extremely helpful.  

Second, as an owner who took a stab in the dark (I know, not overly smart) and by buying my deeded unit on the re-sale market after only limited research and (never having attended a Wyndham selling presentation), I must admit that I am unfamiliar with many of Wyndham’s features, including access points.  I looked at some auctions for access points on Ebay and it looked like the main “plus” was that the points gave 13 month booking access to a large number of resorts (which seems desirable), while the main “minuses” were that (1) the points were slightly more expensive than some resorts, (2) I’m guessing they aren’t deeded, and (3) since I only saw auctions for 300k or more access points, I’m guessing that they are only available in larger quantities?


In terms of annual MF expense, they actually seem to be equivalent to my current deeded membership.  For example, there is an auction for 300k access points listing a $1,626 annual maintenance fee.  That works out to $5.42 per thousand points, which is virtually the same rate as I am currently paying.

I don’t know how strongly Wyndham is pushing the access program, but it strikes me that over time as more and more of these memberships get sold, it will become harder and harder to book decent units using merely the 10 month (instead of 13 month) reservation window.  Thus, Wyndham seems to be hurting deeded members, which is unpleasant, but that’s a different matter.

At any rate, if my understanding of the Access program is correct, and if such a membership could be acquired cheaply (which is a big if, since everything being sold on Ebay is starting at multiple thousands of dollars), then it seems like instead of “getting the same for less” by switching to a deeded membership at a resort with a cheaper maintenance fee ratio, I might be better off “getting more for the same” by switching to an access membership.   Unfortunately, if Wyndham is really promoting (and plans to continue promoting) this access program, then I may have no choice, since doing nothing might mean that I am “getting less for the same” 5 to 10 years from now as it becomes harder and harder to book desirable units at the 10 month window for the non-home resorts I like.

Unless I’m missing something, the only downsides would seem to be (1) the cost of acquiring the access membership + transfer costs, and (2) the lack of a deed (and time limit on RTU?).  Unless Wyndham is secretly tottering near bankruptcy, it would seem that those downsides might be acceptable (though I am a relative newbie to TSing, so I don’t know much about these things).  Am I missing something?

Of course, I would need to familiarize myself with access points.  Does anyone know of any articles on Tug explaining them?  Does each access membership offer 13 month booking access to the same set of resorts?  Or do memberships have different resort sets?  Other than that, is there anything (other than the # of points) that could make one access membership more desirable than another?


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## ronparise (Mar 11, 2012)

Access ownerships are deeded, although you dont hod the deeds, The deeds are deposited to a trust and you own a membership that gives you access to those deeds...so I think the trusts will survive a Wyndham bankruptcy...we will have to hire a new manager is all 

all access owners have access to all the inventory in the trust in the ARP window. Your ability to book a room ARP is limited by the inventory in the trust and the number of access owners

I have asked the specific question of more than one Wyndham employee regarding that inventory at La Belle Maison and I cant get an answer....I want to know, of the 140 units (about 9000 weeks) at La Belle Maison...How many exactly are in the Access trust?...I want to know; are my chances of getting a reservation at Mardi Gras, better with a udi ownership, or with an access membership...and as I say I cant get an answer... The last VC I talked to says it doesnt make a difference...I think she is wrong

I believe as you do..over time more and more inventory will be in  the access trust vs the other trust...What difference that makes in not clear to me, but when it comes to reservations by the udi owners, I think not much. Even if the number of units goes down, so will the number of udi owners that can ARP there. so I think the chances of getting an ARP reservation will stay the same..in fact the chances of getting a reservation will be better than the owners of access points...(as a udi owner Im only competing with the other owners of udi deeds at La Belle Maison. an access owner is competing will all the owners of access points. potentially a much larger number)

I just bought a small Access ownership on ebay 154000 points with 144000 available for this year. My total out of pocket was under $500 (purchase price, current years mf, closing costs and transfer fees) so your assumptions about the size and the cost of these ownerships are a little off...although I have noticed an increase in price for all things Wyndham on ebay recently (at least the things Im watching)

The Wyndham directory does give a pretty good description of Club Wyndham Access. but they dont do an item, by item comparison with udi


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 11, 2012)

As I stood at a Wyndham resort this winter with a Club Access owner who was trying to figure out the view/unit for the ONLY WEEK at the 13 month ARP period, I did my very best NOT TO LAUGH.

Here in a resort of 300 units or at least 15000 intervals, Club Access had ONLY one unit for ARP. 

All I could do was try to figure out IF I could sell her one or two of my fixed week intervals and for how much money ---- as I own more than 2 such intervals there in the Winter.


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## Cheryl20772 (Mar 11, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> The problem of course is that I suspect that the resorts with the lowest maintenance fee ratios are also likely among the least desirable.  Am I wrong about that?


What's not to desire about Panama City Beach?  It's on a pristine white sugar sand beach with deep emerald green Gulf water.  There's nearby deep sea fishing, island excursion day trips, and restaurants and shopping a mile away.  The building is relatively new and kept in near perfect condition.  Oh, and garage parking is free there too.


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## Cheryl20772 (Mar 11, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> I looked at some auctions for access points on Ebay and it looked like the main “plus” was that the points gave 13 month booking access to a large number of resorts (which seems desirable), while the main “minuses” were that (1) the points were slightly more expensive than some resorts, (2) I’m guessing they aren’t deeded, and (3) since I only saw auctions for 300k or more access points, I’m guessing that they are only available in larger quantities?



Access, by my definition, was developed by Wyndham as a way to dump and manage the contracts they want to take in trade as current owners are motivated to trade up and contracts they have to take back when current owners dump their contracts to foreclosure procedure.  Wyndham has a definition problem when it comes to such "pre-owned" contracts.  They can't really have a "used" timeshare sale as, technically, after it's been slept in once, there's no such thing as an unused timeshare.  By pooling their used contracts into a separate trust, they can transfer ownership without going into the second hand contract business.  They can also use Access as a dump for any other contracts that might be leftovers or otherwise hard to get rid of.

That said, Wyndham made the brilliant observation that they have been able to sell ever larger contracts to their current owners with far less manpower effort and expense than by snagging cold calls from the street with promises of free vacations and various other gifts.  For the past few years one of their big sales hooks has been to offer current owners a chance to trade their smaller UDI contract for this shiney new Access contract that will guarantee them lower maintenance fees by averaging the fees from many resorts and give them ARP at so many more resorts than their current singleton. 

I think this would be one big reason why you observe mainly larger Access points contracts for sale on eBay.  They were trade-up contracts; rather than first time buyer contracts.


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## ronparise (Mar 11, 2012)

Chreyl

If what you say is true. that access is a dumping ground for foreclosures, deed backs and trade ins, that the op's observation is also true, that the access pool will get larger over time. and the udi owner, like the fixed weeks owners, will become the red-headed stepchildren of the Wyndham system

I think its also important to note, that in addition to the trade ins, the Wyndham sales force will be happy to sell a "new" access contract. In fact (although I have nothing to back this up) I think thats the preferred sale at a number of the sales offices.

For the record, thats where I think Wyndham is going; to an all access Club, rather than deeded owners.

all salemen will tell you its easier to sell to an existing customer than to make a new one...Wyndham has just taken this to a new level.


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 11, 2012)

A number of people on this thread have said that the "access" inventory is extremely limited and restricted to only a few resorts.  The confusing thing is that the EBay auctions for these memberships seem to represent that they have the following features:

--13 month window to make advance reservations at 34 Wyndham resorts

--Ability to reserve at all other Wyndham resorts (that are not part of Access) within the normal 10 month reservation window. 

From the posts so far, it appears that allow there might be 13 month access to 34 resorts, the number of rooms available during this window at each of these resorts is less than what is available to owners at that resort.  Its not yet clear to me whether the room inventory available during the 10 month window is also smaller than that available to non-access owners booking at non-home resorts.  Anyone know?

If not, then that might mean that I should at least investigate access more.


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## learnalot (Mar 11, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> A number of people on this thread have said that the "access" inventory is extremely limited and restricted to only a few resorts.  The confusing thing is that the EBay auctions for these memberships seem to represent that they have the following features:
> 
> --13 month window to make advance reservations at 34 Wyndham resorts
> 
> ...



1)  At 10 months, everything is in the same pool so it becomes irrelevant.  2) Ebay listings are hardly a source of authoritive information, however, assuming they are correct that CWA has inventory at 34 resorts, that does not speak to whether CWA has any substantial AMOUNT of inventory at those 34 resorts.  During the ARP period, all reservations are limited to the inventory "owned" at each resort.  In the case of CWA, the deeds CWA holds in the trust for any given resort is the inventory CWA "owns" which can be accessed by CWA members for ARP at that resort.


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## ronparise (Mar 11, 2012)

This is from the Wyndham website...note the footnotes


The “home” resort(s) for CLUB WYNDHAM Access owners are all of the resorts which are part of the CLUB WYNDHAM Access Vacation Ownership Plan *to the extent of the interests owned by CLUB WYNDHAM Access in each resort.*



CLUB WYNDHAM® ACCESS RESORTS
What is it?

CLUB WYNDHAM Access owners have access to make
Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) reservations at the following resorts:

Arizona

Wyndham Flagstaff
Wyndham Sedona

Arkansas

Wyndham Resort at Fairfield Bay

California

Wyndham Harbour Lights
Wyndham Oceanside Pier Resort**

Colorado

Wyndham Durango
Wyndham Pagosa
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Steamboat Springs

Florida

Bay Club*
Star Island
Wyndham Bay Club II
Wyndham Beach Street Cottages*
Wyndham Bonnet Creek Resort
Wyndham Cypress Palms
Wyndham Palm-Aire
Wyndham Santa Barbara*
Wyndham Sea Gardens
Wyndham Vacation Resorts at Majestic Sun
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Emerald GrandeTM at Destin****
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Panama City Beach

Louisiana

Wyndham Avenue Plaza
Wyndham La Belle Maison

Maryland

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor

Missouri

Wyndham Branson at The Falls
Wyndham Branson at The Meadows
Wyndham Mountain Vista

Nevada

Wyndham Grand Desert

New Jersey

Wyndham Skyline Tower

North Carolina

Fairfield Harbour
Wyndham Resort at Fairfield Mountains
Wyndham Resort at Fairfield Sapphire Valley

Pennsylvania

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village
- Crestview
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village
- Depuy*
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village
- Ridge Top*
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village
- River Village*

Rhode Island

Wyndham Bay Voyage Inn
Wyndham Inn on Long Wharf*
Wyndham Inn on the Harbor*
Wyndham Newport Onshore*
Wyndham Newport Overlook*

South Carolina

Wyndham at The Cottages*
Wyndham Ocean Boulevard*
Wyndham Ocean Ridge*
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Lake Marion
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Towers on the Grove at North Myrtle Beach
Wyndham Westwinds*

Tennessee

Wyndham Nashville
Wyndham Resort at Fairfield Glade
Wyndham Smoky Mountains
Wyndham Vacation Resorts Great Smokies Lodge

Texas

Wyndham La Cascada
Wyndham Riverside Suites

Vermont

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Smugglers' Notch Vermont®***

Virginia

Wyndham Governor’s Green
Wyndham Kingsgate*
Wyndham Patriots' Place*

Wisconsin

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at Glacier Canyon


*Only a very limited amount of inventory in this resort is currently a part of CLUB WYNDHAM Access. As such, the ability to obtain a reservation at this resort during the 13 to 10 month ARP window is currently very limited and should not be anticipated.
**The ARP window for Wyndham Oceanside Pier Resort is available for stays between Labor Day and May 31. From May 31 to Labor Day reservations may be requested during the Standard Reservation window.
***The ARP for Wyndham Vacation Resorts Smugglers’ Notch Vermont® currently has limited availability for the month of July. Reservation requests are currently not available for stays between December 16 and December 31.
****The Advance Reservation Priority for Wyndham Vacation Resorts Emerald GrandeTM at Destin is available for stays between February and December. Reservation requests are not available for stays in January.


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## am1 (Mar 11, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I have an argument as to why I think that National Harbor fees will stay low (but most everyone on tug disagrees with me)



That is not always a bad thing.


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## ronparise (Mar 11, 2012)

am1 said:


> That is not always a bad thing.



I hope not, as it has become an overriding theme in my life...I find myself writing the 'minority report' a lot

I really liked the Apple ads  "Think Different"


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## jebloomquist (Mar 11, 2012)

Wyndham seems to be playing both ends of the calendar. 

On the Club Wyndham Access end they state how wonderful it is to book at 13 months. As far as Wyndham is concerned, nothing could be better than to have all of their properties booked at the full point value. 

On the other end, Wyndham suggests to VIP owners that there will be all of these wonderful properties available to book at the 60-day mark. Actually, Wyndham would like them to already be booked. 

I think that one aim of CWA is to get owners to book earlier at full point value by parading the 34 resorts as this wonderful 13-month possibility.

At my last presentation, the rep said how wonderful it would be for me to convert all of my points to CWA points and it would only cost me about $50K to get an addition 154k points in the process. Plus my maintenance fees would go down to about $5 per 1000. I told her that my current 2012 maintenance fees were $3.90 per 1000. She said oh no, and produced a sheet that showed that they were much higher. Well, then I produced a sheet showing what they actually were. Including everything, I pay $220 per month for a yearly average of 677k points. That ended the discussion concerning CWA Access.

They will say anything.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 11, 2012)

jebloomquist said:


> ... Plus my maintenance fees would go down to about $5 per 1000 ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ronparise (Mar 11, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> jebloomquist said:
> 
> 
> > ... Plus my maintenance fees would go down to about $5 per 1000 ...
> ...


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## rrlongwell (Mar 11, 2012)

ronparise said:


> rrlongwell said:
> 
> 
> > jebloomquist said:
> ...


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 17, 2012)

From the previous posts, it seems clear that the "access" memberships may have the ability to book at a lot of resorts during the 13 month window, but the amount of units available at each of these resorts is very limited.

What I am still wondering is whether the inventory Access members can book at 10 months is the same as the 10 month inventory available to non-access members when booking outside of their home resorts (in other words, every single unit not yet booked is available to both access and non-access members as of the 10 month booking window).


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## Cheryl20772 (Mar 17, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> From the previous posts, it seems clear that the "access" memberships may have the ability to book at a lot of resorts during the 13 month window, but the amount of units available at each of these resorts is very limited.
> 
> What I am still wondering is whether the inventory Access members can book at 10 months is the same as the 10 month inventory available to non-access members when booking outside of their home resorts (in other words, every single unit not yet booked is available to both access and non-access members as of the 10 month booking window).


Yes, at 10 months, Access ownership works the same, and has the same availability, as regular ownership.


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## learnalot (Mar 17, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> From the previous posts, it seems clear that the "access" memberships may have the ability to book at a lot of resorts during the 13 month window, but the amount of units available at each of these resorts is very limited.
> 
> What I am still wondering is whether the inventory Access members can book at 10 months is the same as the 10 month inventory available to non-access members when booking outside of their home resorts (in other words, every single unit not yet booked is available to both access and non-access members as of the 10 month booking window).




Yes.  See my post #29 above.


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## wyatt-wyatt (Mar 18, 2012)

OK, so since the Access memberships and deeded resort-specific memberships are the same when it comes to the 10 month booking window, my guess, based on the information posted her so far, is that Access memberships might be a better deal for me if I rarely utilize the 13 month booking window at my home resort (and instead generally use the 10 month booking window at other resorts).  Access has less inventory outside in the 13 month window, but at least it has a little, which is better than nothing if I want to stay outside my home resort.  Am I missing something?

Final question, does anyone have an idea of how much large-unit (3 & 4 BR) Bonnett Creek inventory is available in the 13 month Access membership booking window?


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## learnalot (Mar 18, 2012)

wyatt-wyatt said:


> Final question, does anyone have an idea of how much large-unit (3 & 4 BR) Bonnett Creek inventory is available in the 13 month Access membership booking window?



With the exception of fixed weeks, inventory is not allocated this way in the Wyndham system.  That is, there is no particular number of 3 or 4 bedroom units that belong to either the Access side or the UDI side, rather there are a certain (unknown and moving target) number of points "owned" on each side.  These points can be used up to their limits for reservations during the ARP period at the home resort(s) - in your question, Bonnet Creek.  For the sake of discussion and illustration, I will plug in some numbers - they are scaled down but I think you will get the gist.  Let's deal with 848k, which would be the cost for 2 4BR Pres in prime season.  Owning 848K, either in Access or UDI does not GUARANTEE you will be able to reserve those 2 4BR Presidentials say at Christmas (or any other particular week) because your points do not represent the availability of any actual unit size, they are simply the currency you would use to reserve an available unit.  If all the 3 or 4BR units have been reserved, you would have to spend your points for different unit sizes and/or dates and/or locations.  

One other point to consider, with Access, all the Access owners have the ability to "spend" the Access ARP inventory at any given resort.  Once it has been "spent", it is gone and no additional ARP reservations at that particular resort will be available to Access owners.  With UDI, while it is possible a UDI owner will not necessarily be able to reserve a PARTICULAR highly desirable week (everyone cannot reserve Christmas week, for instance, as their is not enough inventory), there would not be cases where they were unable to make an ARP reservation because all the ARP had been "spent".


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## djohn75087 (Mar 18, 2012)

*question about access/udi*

We were at Nashville and during our update the guy told me that UDI/access memberships do not have special assessments. I would have just assumed he was telling a lie, but he didn't try to sell us points. We own 385k resale and we were hit with a $374 dollar SA at Pagosa this yr. My MF's are $4.50 per k including program fee but did I make a mistake in not buying UDI.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 18, 2012)

djohn75087 said:


> We were at Nashville and during our update the guy told me that UDI/access memberships do not have special assessments. I would have just assumed he was telling a lie, but he didn't try to sell us points. We own 385k resale and we were hit with a $374 dollar SA at Pagosa this yr. My MF's are $4.50 per k including program fee but did I make a mistake in not buying UDI.



Buy what you want to use.  The salesperson is not exactly right.  Special Assessments can hit any form of ownership in one way or another.  With your relatively low maintance fees, at the amount of the Special Assessment you paid, it appears you can take a number of these over the years and still be money ahead compared to higher maintance fees properties that would also include Wyndham program fees and other related costs for points based contracts.


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## Cheryl20772 (Mar 18, 2012)

djohn75087 said:


> We were at Nashville and during our update the guy told me that UDI/access memberships do not have special assessments. I would have just assumed he was telling a lie, but he didn't try to sell us points. We own 385k resale and we were hit with a $374 dollar SA at Pagosa this yr. My MF's are $4.50 per k including program fee but did I make a mistake in not buying UDI.


I'm confused by "UDI/access memberships " in your post.  Are you equating the two in relation to SA's?
What are your resale points?  If they are not Access, they must be either UDI or converted week?

My understanding: the difference between UDI and Access for SA is UDI owners all pay a share proportional to their number of points in the single resort they own for any SA; whereas, Access owners (own points ranging over many resorts in a pool) would pay only a fraction according to how many points they own, but that fraction is spread out over the whole Access pool.  What Access does is minimize the impact on the individual Access owner when one resort in the pool has a SA.  Someone has to pay it.  I don't see how they would get away from it entirely.

Can any Access owners better explain how it works?  Have there been any SA's yet in the Access resort pool?


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 19, 2012)

I purchased a CWA contract a couple years ago and am somewhat familar. At the time I could get either a 154K CWA contact that was originally deeded at GD or a UDI contract for proverbial buck. Since CWA Developer contracts were going for about 20% premium I went with it.

I have found it to be like most products with a sales driven organization. Last time I counted about 56 of 72 Wyndham resorts had a least a few points but using has been impossible. My last try was at month 13, 8:00AM ET for week 5 and 6 for 2013  at AVP or LBM. Plenty of ARP inventory but no CWA, try at 10 month mark. Same with Daytona 500, spring break, Christmas,  etc,  weeks.. There is so little CWA inventory at red hot resorts for red hot weeks to render useless. Also, since booking at prime time need a lot of points i.e.  166K for 1 BR at BC. Cheryl is correct in her analysis. It costs so much to operate a resort over say a ten year period. Preferably the costs will be spread equally over  that period, but Developers like to keep MF low and many Boards do not understand accounting(depreciation). So, if adequate reserves are not provided from day 1 a special assessment is guaranted when roofs leak, parking lots get pot holes, heating/cooling systems fail, etc. Ball park about 20% of HOA fee or a dollar should be going into reserves! If CWA pays special assessment it just spreads over all points.

Of course, if a hurricane hits and no flood insurance there will be one. I own at  Nashville and did not get one so they must have had adequate reserves and insurance. Also, most insurance does not provide for betterment coverage(bring up to current code) and this requires special assessment a la AVP.

Of course,  sales people point out that CWA has ROFR which is worthless and just delays resale a month.

Thinking about it, if one  has a fixed  vacation schedule they are going to buy to get ARP  at favorite resort, no way take a chance on using CWA! So, the possibility of someone  wanting Bonnet Creek, ski resort or beach resort  buying a CWA contract is slim to none.

As Ron mentioned 2012 HOA fee is $4.89 / 1,000K up $.02 from last year!

We  do get to elect our Board unlike VOI Trust where Wyndham potentates are appointed as dictators.


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