# Walked away from HGVC



## Iwantout (Jun 17, 2019)

We got out of our HGVC timeshare in 13 months. After a year of having it and never using it we tried to sell it and was told it's was only worth $3k at the most and we paid $25K. We financed $22K through Hilton. We had a 2 bed 2 bath at Par Soleil. 

After hearing this I stopped paying and  wrote a letter to the Hilton President asking how is our timeshare only worth $3k in only a year when we were told numerous times it holds it value. And how has the maintenance fees gone up twice in 1 year?  I never got a response. I stopped paying and sent the letter in October 2017.

I got a few collections, not any too annoying. I just said "I'm waiting to hear back from the President." Eventually the calls stopped. Then started receiving letters of balances owed. I just ignored. Then we got a letter HGVC saying their going to foreclose through a non-judicial foreclosure if we did not pay. If you receive this letter do not sign it, just ignore. Non-judicial foreclosure are done outside of the courts and HGVC can not come after you for the balance if done this way. YOU WANT THIS! If you sign this letter, you will end up in court and probably have to pay fees and risk your credit.

By January 2019 we received a letter that our timeshare had been foreclosed. Nothing hit our credit reports. Apparently if the creditor was never reporting payments they can't start now. HGVC has never showed on my credit from the very beginning.  I logged on to the website it says we no longer have an account. We haven't received anymore bills either.

I researched attorneys who can get you out of timeshares, but they wanted about $5k to probably do the same thing I did. The first thing they tell you is to stop paying and in a few months you will be out of the timeshare. The only thing the attorney may be able to do better is regain any money you already paid. And even that's a maybe. We did no get back any money we paid, but are still glad to be out of it.

I was ready for a long ride with this but it passed very quickly.


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## DeniseM (Jun 17, 2019)

Please explain exactly how this is possible:  





> And how has the maintenance fees gone up* twice in 1 year*?



Timeshares should never be financed - if you can't afford to pay cash, you shouldn't  buy it.


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## Talent312 (Jun 17, 2019)

HGVC can now sell your $3k TS again, this time for M/T $25.
So it goes...


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## RX8 (Jun 17, 2019)

You may not be out of the woods just yet.  You may likely receive a 1099-C for the $22,000 debt cancellation impacting your 2019 taxes. That would be considered taxable income.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2019)

Thanks for sharing. How much $$ were you actually out in the end? I suspect that because you never used it that played a part in HGVC not going after you.


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## SmithOp (Jun 17, 2019)

I’m curious about the letters you got for balances owed, were these for unpaid maintenance fees or mortgage payments, or both?

I was under the impression HGVC did not carry the mortgages but sold them to third parties, maybe thats not the case.


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## brp (Jun 17, 2019)

What I find confusing here is timing. If this was a 13-month process, presumably it started some time last May, gove or take. But the OP was a member about 6 months prior to the purchase. Maybe no research prior to a developer purchase?

In any event, getting out fairly easily (initial cost aside) from something you were paying for and not using is a good plan!

Cheers.


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## SteelerGal (Jun 17, 2019)

It may not be HGVC who actually contacts especially if HGVC sold the debt to a 3rd party.  You most likely just went through round 1.  The underwriter of the loan will eventually contact you and pray they don’t use the lawyer debt firm employed by Capital 1.  Now debt firms utilize our Courts to ensure they are paid back.


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## SmithOp (Jun 17, 2019)

DeniseM said:


> Please explain exactly how this is possible:
> 
> Timeshares should never be financed - if you can't afford to pay cash, you shouldn't  buy it.



OP joined in Nov 2017, I suspect they were given 2017 fees at time of sale, then got bill in Jan 2018 with first raise.  Then Jan 2019 with second.


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## brp (Jun 18, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> OP joined in Nov 2017, I suspect they were given 2017 fees at time of sale, then got bill in Jan 2018 with first raise.  Then Jan 2019 with second.



Good point. I guess it does say that s/he had it for like a year before starting the process.

Cheers.


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## bizaro86 (Jun 18, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> I’m curious about the letters you got for balances owed, were these for unpaid maintenance fees or mortgage payments, or both?
> 
> I was under the impression HGVC did not carry the mortgages but sold them to third parties, maybe thats not the case.
> 
> ...



Most often they hold the loans for awhile, for two reason. They need a bunch to sell them to a securitizarion vehicle, so they need to wait until they've accumulated  $100 MM plus in loans. And loans with a payment history of a year or two are worth more, because they're more likely to be repaid, so often they wait and sell them then.


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## bizaro86 (Jun 18, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> HGVC can now sell your $3k TS again, this time for M/T $25.
> So it goes...


True, but HGVC probably lost quite a bit on the sale. They would have paid a commission to the salesperson who sold the TS to the OP that probably exceeded the down payment, planning to make it up from the value of the loan...


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## fernow (Jun 18, 2019)

Posts like this, "Bad buy x 3" and many others continue to make me wonder when the whole timeshare industry will come crashing down.  With maintenance fees about equal to what you can rent the units for as a non owner, the constant radio and TV adds for "get out of your timeshare", the increasing snake oil reputation of the retail sales force and the wealth of info available on the internet, it can't be too long before nobody is buying a timeshare anymore and that is not good for current owners, even at secondary market prices.


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## PigsDad (Jun 18, 2019)

fernow said:


> Posts like this, "Bad buy x 3" and many others continue to make me wonder when the whole timeshare industry will come crashing down.  *With maintenance fees about equal to what you can rent the units for as a non owner*, the constant radio and TV adds for "get out of your timeshare", the increasing snake oil reputation of the retail sales force and the wealth of info available on the internet, it can't be too long before nobody is buying a timeshare anymore and that is not good for current owners, even at secondary market prices.


Sorry, I don't see any evidence to support your statement highlighted above.  At least not for the average HGVC ownership (this post _is _in a HGVC forum).  I normally get twice the value for my points than what I pay in maintenance fees, comparing to what I would pay at VRBO, Home Away, and the like.  (My example:  I have two prime ocean-front weeks on Marco Island that cost me $1100/week.  Rental for the same time of year is a minimum $2500/week.)  If we are comparing direct hotel rates, it is probably even more.

The two examples you gave were people who bought direct from the developer and overpaid for the initial ownership.  After they realize those are sunk costs, maintenance fees are very reasonable compared to what equivalent accommodations would cost.  If timeshares are such terrible products, how come they have been around for 40-50+ years and have not came "crashing down" yet, as you say is near?

Kurt


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## brp (Jun 18, 2019)

fernow said:


> the increasing snake oil reputation of the retail sales force...



I actually find that this is diminishing over time, not growing. IME, it used to be worse. Sure, some lies are still out there, but the experiences I've had in recent years have been more low-key and less outright dishonest than in the past.

Cheers.


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## fernow (Jun 18, 2019)

Marco Island yearly fee vs rental options may work to advantage but other markets are less favorable.  Add any significant purchase price, even resale prices in some markets and timeshare just doesn't pencil.

Timeshare industry cannot exist on resale market.  Purchasing at retail makes no financial sense.  How do those two facts (?) co-exist long term?

Timeshare marketing is local while anti timeshare marketing is more disseminated and I believe timeshare industry reputation is poor.  I haven't seen too many posts on TUG singing the praises of timeshare presentations and sales people.  My guess is used car and cable company sales people would get better ratings.

40 years ago Sears was dominant. 40 years ago information access was limited.  40 years ago renting local units was difficult.  Lots of changes in 40 years.

An industry dependent on "tricking" people into a purchase that is not good for them in today's information market has to fail.  IMO.


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## jwalk03 (Jun 18, 2019)

Lots and lots of people every year make plenty of uninformed decisions even though the information is readily available via google search and has been available for several years now.

It isn’t coming crashing down anytime soon that’s for sure.

If current sales tactics stop working they will just develop something else new like they have done in the past.  Going from fixed weeks to flex weeks to internal exchanging to points clubs, etc.


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## Panina (Jun 18, 2019)

fernow said:


> Marco Island yearly fee vs rental options may work to advantage but other markets are less favorable.  Add any significant purchase price, even resale prices in some markets and timeshare just doesn't pencil.
> 
> Timeshare industry cannot exist on resale market.  Purchasing at retail makes no financial sense.  How do those two facts (?) co-exist long term?
> 
> ...


I will agree with @PigsDad.  Owning timeshares have saved me significant money.  Occasionally I do rent at hotels and value does not come close.  

Like many people will not buy a display model car that has a few miles on it, many timeshare buyers prefer buying from a developer.  Whereas I don’t agree or understand it I believe the I want to own this now will prevail. Lots of things are purchased on inpulse without comparison shopping.  

Timeshares are like any other purchase, it is up to the consumer to do their due diligence to make sure what  they were told is true and what they are buying is at the best price.  It is easy to blame the the sales person is “tricking” you but if everyone read their contract and took a few minutes to search the internet they would be educated and be able to make an informed decision.


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## fernow (Jun 18, 2019)

Got it and agree.  Be an adult and do your research.  A new car costs more than a used car and loses value on the drive off the lot.  That is widely known information.  The used cars are for sale right on the same lot.

But then why have I never seen a post here that says:  "You made the decision.  Live with it." ?

Rescind is always the advise unless it is too late.  Why?  Because the retail purchase was a bad decision.

I have never seen an OP asking the question about their developer purpose say that they were made aware by the sales person that immediately after purchase their deed would be near worthless or offered a "used" timeshare for the sales lot.  If fact, many imply they were told the deed would hold value.  Trickery ?

Look, I hope the industry survives.  I own and want my favorite resorts to prosper.  But still.  The question remains.  How can it?  How can I root for a industry after reading the remorse of so many retail buyers?


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## GT75 (Jun 18, 2019)

fernow said:


> Posts like this, "Bad buy x 3" and many others continue to make me wonder when the whole timeshare industry will come crashing down.  With maintenance fees about equal to what you can rent the units for as a non owner, the constant radio and TV adds for "get out of your timeshare", the increasing snake oil reputation of the retail sales force and the wealth of info available on the internet, it can't be too long before nobody is buying a timeshare anymore and that is not good for current owners, even at secondary market prices.



I also agree with @PigsDad and actually like the HGVC system (a lot).    I sometimes travel to places outside of HGVC system such as Maui and an upcoming trip to Whistler and Banff.   I have come to appreciate HGVC even more as I book in either AirBnb or VRBO.   I estimate that the prices (for MFs) in HGVC system to be about 1/2 of what I am booking in AirBnb/VRBO.    So to me, I am saving money and understand the booking system very well.   I am also much more comfortable booking a unit in HGVC than either AirBnb or VRBO.


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## PigsDad (Jun 18, 2019)

fernow said:


> 40 years ago Sears was dominant. 40 years ago information access was limited.  40 years ago renting local units was difficult.  Lots of changes in 40 years.
> 
> An industry dependent on "tricking" people into a purchase that is not good for them in today's information market has to fail.  IMO.


I certainly don't know all the reasons, but the data doesn't back up your prediction.  Timeshare sales have been _increasing_, not decreasing -- and you certainly can't say that buyers today don't have access to information like 40 years ago.  So why are sales continuing to rise?

TUG is definitely resale-centric, but I think it is a small segment of the timeshare owners / buyers population.  It is interesting -- I follow a few timeshare groups on Facebook, and even though most know about resale, many (most?) still believe purchasing retail is a good value for them.  Sometimes I shake my head at some of their reasoning, but it just goes to strengthen my belief that there is a continual and more than ample supply of people who will continue buying retail.  And as long as people see value in what they are purchasing, I don't see that ending.

Here in TUG we see the people who are not happy with their retail purchase, but we don't see those who are happy after buying retail.  I think that skews our perception if all we look at is TUG.  And I honestly think there are many more happy owners than dissatisfied ones.

Kurt


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## phil1ben (Jun 20, 2019)

fernow said:


> Look, I hope the industry survives.  I own and want my favorite resorts to prosper.  But still.  The question remains.  How can it?  How can I root for a industry after reading the remorse of so many retail buyers?



Let me start with I am very against government regulation and tend to be libertarian. However, I have watched the industry over time and I believe some regulation is in order. Couldn't the industry be fixed if Florida/Nevada etc... passed a law requiring any communication between a developer (i.e. HGV, Marriot, Disney etc...) and a purchaser to be in writing or either video-taped (if in person) or audio-taped if by telephone. An oral communication must be recorded. Each recording shall be held for two years with a copy provided to the purchaser at closing.  In the event that the recordings show a material misrepresentation (which can be defined in the statute) or the recordings are not provided to the purchaser, then the sale can be voided within two-years from the date of sale by application to a court of law or administrative body established for this purpose. The legal fees of the prevailing party shall be paid by the losing party.  In such case, the developer would be liable to satisfy any outstanding debt. In my opinion this would fix a system which is tainted by fraud, lies and unsophisticated buyers.


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## brp (Jun 20, 2019)

phil1ben said:


> However, I have watched the industry over time and I believe some regulation is in order. Couldn't the industry be fixed if Florida/Nevada etc... passed a law requiring any communication between a developer (i.e. HGV, Marriot, Disney etc...) and a purchaser to be in writing or either video-taped (if in person) or audio-taped if by telephone.



Interesting thought. But inasmuch as all the details (the real ones) are in writing and, in actuality, are not all that buried, I don't believe that this is necessary. I think that the rescission period is ample time to review the docs. That people don't is, I believe, on them.

Also, timeshare is certainly not the only area where verbal contracts are not binding.

I don't like the lying aspect either (and I see less of it as time goes on, fortunately), but I think folks have to take responsibility for themselves in this case and not rely on regulation. Libertarian, to be sure.

Cheers.


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## Gypsy65 (Jun 20, 2019)

I agree with many of the above posts but I don’t think it’s going to crash. I think people are becoming better educated on TS. Not all but many

What I do think will happen. Is the resorts will come up with a better plan. Not a scam. But rather a better way to teach the buyers how to use what they bought. Retail or resale
By doing that. They make a happy customer. That customer will bring in new customers 
They need to create value in their products and not just a “ get them while you can “ approach 

I purchased some developer and some resale. Brought the entire package in to the points program and by doing that I am able to stay places for less than rent
and that is what the resorts need to be doing more of.

Sell a mixed basket where in the end it works great for the buyer and the seller gets a little less upfront but gains a steady flow long term and a happy guest

Then. Have meetings that owners can attend to learn how to use it


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## MikeinSoCal (Jun 20, 2019)

My family members knew I bought HGV in the resale market and asked me about my TS.  I also referred them to TUG.  With all the information available to them, they still decided to outlay some pretty hefty costs to developers.  My one sister now owns DVC and MVC, my other sister now owns MVC and HGVC, and my brother now owns DVC and MVC.  They didn't trust the resale market.  They all paid cash and I'm sure the purchases were just disposable income to them.  Different strokes for different folks.

The TS market is alive and well.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 20, 2019)

The resale market is complicated and full of potential potholes. Many people don't want to invest the time that Tuggers spend. Developer is easy and people can sleep at night. I liken resales to home auctions. Some people won't go near them. Some have educated themselves and are willing to take calculated risks. Resale brokers such as Syed Sarmad mitigate those risks for TS buyers by helping to navigate these pot holes, but most people are not aware of such brokers.


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## Panina (Jun 20, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The resale market is complicated and full of potential potholes. Many people don't want to invest the time that Tuggers spend. Developer is easy and people can sleep at night. I liken resales to home auctions. Some people won't go near them. Some have educated themselves and are willing to take calculated risks. Resale brokers such as Syed Sarmad mitigate those risks for TS buyers by helping to navigate these pot holes, but most people are not aware of such brokers.


  I agree with you analysis.  There will always be customers for developers to sell to. @MikeinSoCal post is a great example.


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## 4Sunsets (Jun 20, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The resale market is complicated and full of potential potholes. Many people don't want to invest the time that Tuggers spend. Developer is easy and people can sleep at night. I liken resales to home auctions. Some people won't go near them. Some have educated themselves and are willing to take calculated risks. Resale brokers such as Syed Sarmad mitigate those risks for TS buyers by helping to navigate these pot holes, but most people are not aware of such brokers.



Definitely complicated.


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## 4Sunsets (Jun 20, 2019)

Iwantout said:


> We got out of our HGVC timeshare in 13 months. After a year of having it and never using it we tried to sell it and was told it's was only worth $3k at the most and we paid $25K. We financed $22K through Hilton. We had a 2 bed 2 bath at Par Soleil.
> 
> After hearing this I stopped paying and  wrote a letter to the Hilton President asking how is our timeshare only worth $3k in only a year when we were told numerous times it holds it value. And how has the maintenance fees gone up twice in 1 year?  I never got a response. I stopped paying and sent the letter in October 2017.
> 
> ...



Congrats! Please keep us updated if anything happens going forward. Glad you got out and saved your credit.


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