# Weeks to points the new ripoff



## tombo (Aug 22, 2007)

When developers sell every week there is in their inventory, they need to build a new resort to make more money. Instead they diminish the value of the weeks you own by making points more valuable. I own at Escapes to Orange beach and they are converting to points. When originally purchased, a week 3 at the home resort and a week 27 had the same chance at 4th of july by reserving 10 months in advance at the home resort. Now if you buy points you can reserve the week on your deed 12 months in advance virtually making it a fixed week with the points option. Now the points owners will be able to reserve all of the prime summer weeks before the owners who bought weeks originally can even call to reserve a week. How can they legally take away the value of your week by selling points after all the weeks there have been sold out? Easy because we are all suckers. If no one bought the points they would go away. Sadly that is not the case. Now my Pahio resorts in Kauai have been bought by Wyndham. I could reserve any week I wanted (1-52) easily up until now. Now I fully expect Wyndham to diminish the value of my floating week by offering points. No one would buy points if you owned a week and there was no advantage.Beyond the points conversion strategy many resorts now don't give equal value to points purchased resale as they do to points purchased from them or from an authorized reseller.Please tell the next resort that wants you to convert to points that you have fully paid for your week and that you refuse to pay for the right to vacation there a second time. If there are any lawyers here, file a class action suit against them for diminishing the value of timeshares they have sold by making weeks less valuable by selling points that were not even offered in the beginning. I will join your lawsuit gladly, Tom


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 22, 2007)

*They can't change the rules*



tombo said:


> When developers sell every week there is in their inventory, they need to build a new resort to make more money. Instead they diminish the value of the weeks you own by making points more valuable. I own at Escapes to Orange beach and they are converting to points. When originally purchased, a week 3 at the home resort and a week 27 had the same chance at 4th of july by reserving 10 months in advance at the home resort. Now if you buy points you can reserve the week on your deed 12 months in advance virtually making it a fixed week with the points option. Now the points owners will be able to reserve all of the prime summer weeks before the owners who bought weeks originally can even call to reserve a week. How can they legally take away the value of your week by selling points after all the weeks there have been sold out? Easy because we are all suckers. If no one bought the points they would go away. Sadly that is not the case. Now my Pahio resorts in Kauai have been bought by Wyndham. I could reserve any week I wanted (1-52) easily up until now. Now I fully expect Wyndham to diminish the value of my floating week by offering points. No one would buy points if you owned a week and there was no advantage.Beyond the points conversion strategy many resorts now don't give equal value to points purchased resale as they do to points purchased from them or from an authorized reseller.Please tell the next resort that wants you to convert to points that you have fully paid for your week and that you refuse to pay for the right to vacation there a second time. If there are any lawyers here, file a class action suit against them for diminishing the value of timeshares they have sold by making weeks more valuable. I will join your lawsuit gladly, Tom



Speaking to the float week it sounds like you own at Escapes you should be talking to the Board at the resort and reading your documents. It is unlikely that any management/developer can legally change the reservation rules after selling the resort under different rules. That is all part of the sales prospectus/disclosure statement that they had to file when sales began and not even a Board can change those rights without a super majority vote of owners.  Don't just accept what they say as right. 

On the other hand they may be able to set up a new set of owners - those  who are willing to commit their ownership to the points program - and then give those weeks, now points, a different set of guidelines. But that would NOT change your rights to the 10 month reservation rights for all owners who stayed in the "old" system. The "new" 12 months reservations would be limited to those weeks placed into the new system (points). No points members should be able to reserve "weeks" use - and no weeks owners would be able to reserve weeks now committed to the points pool.    

Obviously this means you have to trust your management to keep the inventory for each group separated and that they give all owners within each group as fair shot at the reservations available. That almost precludes management by the developer/seller of the points as the temptation would be great to favor whatever they are selling now. You really need an independent management with heavy Board (assuming owner control of the Board) oversight.  It's not a good situation but it can, and should, be handled fairly.  How is the resort set up and who actually controls it?  

No one should ever be forced to buy anything more simply to keep the rights they had initially.  A well run resort and Association will make sure that is the case.


----------



## tombo (Aug 22, 2007)

*The reality is lost value of weeks*

I happen to own a deeded summer (luckily) floating week. If I agree to buy points (for $4000) as they tried hard to get me to do, I can reserve my summer week , 12 months in advance every year. That will take a summer week out of the weeks available for the floating weeks owners  to reserve 10 months in advance because I reserved it 12 months in advance. Since floating weeks are deeded a week to prevent overselling, the owners of the deeded weeks 21 to 30 can buy points and lock up every available summer week 12 months in advance. Yes you are correct that they can't trade for weeks anymore, but why would they? This means you bought a deeded week 3 that floats weeks 1-52, but the people with summer weeks on their deeds swapped to points locking you out of the chance to reserve a summer week. Before points you had the same chance as anyone who owned there no matter what week was on their deed.I really considered locking my summer week in by buying points but I didn't on principle. They were selling me the advantages as I was vacationing on week 26 which I couldn't get if every owner who had week 26 on his deed went to points and reserved 12 months in advance. It will probably come to that eventually. Now Bluegreen and Fairfield have restrictions on what resale points are worth versus developer sold points. It is a ripping off of owners who have paid for their rights  and shouldn't haqve them changed.


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 23, 2007)

tombo said:


> I happen to own a deeded week 23 (luckily) floating week. If I agree to buy points (for $4000) as they tried hard to get me to do, I can reserve my week 23, 12 months in advance every year. That will take a week 23 out of the weeks available for the floating weeks owners  to reserve 10 months in advance because I reserved it 12 months in advance. Since floating weeks are deeded a week to prevent overselling, the owners of the deeded weeks 21 to 30 can buy points and lock up every available summer week 12 months in advance. Yes you are correct that they can't trade for weeks anymore, but why would they? This means you bought a deeded week 3 that floats weeks 1-52, but the people with summer weeks on their deeds swapped to points locking you out of the chance to reserve a summer week. Before points you had the same chance as anyone who owned there no matter what week was on their deed.I really considered locking my week 23 in by buying points but I didn't on principle. They were selling me the advantages as I was vacationing on week 26 which I couldn't get if every owner who had week 26 on his deed went to points and reserved 12 months in advance. It will probably come to that eventually. Now Bluegreen and Fairfield have restrictions on what resale points are worth versus developer sold points. It is a ripping off of owners who have paid for their rights  and shouldn't haqve them changed.



I'd be surprised if there wasn't better control over the choices than what you paint. For example if say 30% of ALL floating weeks owners converted to points then, at most, 30% of any given week (for example weeks 21-30) could be reserved by points owners. Once 30% were reserved the rest would fall to the weeks owners.  It would not, as you say, be fair that those who move to points get to snatch all the great weeks.  I know thats how it works at one of my resorts that has a mix of weeks and points owners (even though all have the same reservation period - 12 months). Once the percentage of any group is reached for any given week the rest in that group are told it is "sold out" even if not 1 week was taken from other owner groups.  Again you can see why this needs to be administered by a neutral third party. You don't want the sales/developer hand in the pot.  Make sense?


----------



## tombo (Aug 23, 2007)

*unfortunatelly ripoff*

The premise is that any owner can convert to points allowing them shorter stays than 7 days, the ability to stay more than a week by using their points on other than peak times, and the ability to book their week listed on their deed 12 months out allowing them to book way in advance. The sales gimmick is to convert the week owned to points by selling advantages. Do you or anyone here think that points is better than weeks? A week owned is a week, points can be oversold. You can only sell 52 weeks per unit in a resort. You can sell unlimited points. Does anyone believe that lots of owners want to book Monday through Thursday so you can use your points to book a weekend getaway? Points are hard to prove, hard to verify. If I own a week 25, unit 222, I can verify I own that. RCI is renting days and weeks that have been deposited under points and weeks and you have to wonder when you request a week to trade how they can have one to rent but not one to exchange. I like my weeks and know that points is a ripoff or else the developers wouldn't be so excited about points.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 23, 2007)

tombo said:


> I happen to own a deeded week 23 (luckily) floating week. If I agree to buy points (for $4000) as they tried hard to get me to do, I can reserve my week 23, 12 months in advance every year. That will take a week 23 out of the weeks available for the floating weeks owners  to reserve 10 months in advance because I reserved it 12 months in advance. Since floating weeks are deeded a week to prevent overselling, the owners of the deeded weeks 21 to 30 can buy points and lock up every available summer week 12 months in advance. Yes you are correct that they can't trade for weeks anymore, but why would they? This means you bought a deeded week 3 that floats weeks 1-52, but the people with summer weeks on their deeds swapped to points locking you out of the chance to reserve a summer week. Before points you had the same chance as anyone who owned there no matter what week was on their deed.I really considered locking my week 23 in by buying points but I didn't on principle. They were selling me the advantages as I was vacationing on week 26 which I couldn't get if every owner who had week 26 on his deed went to points and reserved 12 months in advance. It will probably come to that eventually. Now Bluegreen and Fairfield have restrictions on what resale points are worth versus developer sold points. It is a ripping off of owners who have paid for their rights  and shouldn't haqve them changed.



I fail to see how you are losing out.  It seems you get access to Week 23 which is what you bought.  You didn't own all of the floating weeks.  Other people did.  They chose to go points because they saw value in it and they paid the premium.  That's their right. You don't have to convert.  You have what you bought.  A fixed week with floating capabilities, but no guarantee that you could floast anytime you wanted.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 23, 2007)

tombo said:


> The premise is that any owner can convert to points allowing them shorter stays than 7 days, the ability to stay more than a week by using their points on other than peak times, and the ability to book their week listed on their deed 12 months out allowing them to book way in advance. The sales gimmick is to convert the week owned to points by selling advantages. Do you or anyone here think that points is better than weeks? A week owned is a week, points can be oversold. You can only sell 52 weeks per unit in a resort. You can sell unlimited points. Does anyone believe that lots of owners want to book Monday through Thursday so you can use your points to book a weekend getaway? Points are hard to prove, hard to verify. If I own a week 25, unit 222, I can verify I own that. RCI is renting days and weeks that have been deposited under points and weeks and you have to wonder when you request a week to trade how they can have one to rent but not one to exchange. I like my weeks and know that points is a ripoff or else the developers wouldn't be so excited about points.



Yes, the MARKET has said that it is more valuable.  That's why people are paying money to convert.  I believe points are better than weeks even though I think both are good.

YOU dont like points.  That's fine.  That's you choice.  It doesn't mean that many others don't love them.


----------



## e.bram (Aug 23, 2007)

Actually the management company in converting to points is leasing your unit and giving you points which you can use to lease another unit. I don't think they can change the rights in the master deed for floating units to benefit their position in releasing your unit. Of course since they make the reservations in the computer they can give themselves an unfair advantage. This would a breach of their fiduciary obligation and be a clear conflict of interest.
I have a unit like this and if they don't give a decent week I will give unit back to the HOA and let the management company pay the MF. If they sue for the MF I will use the fiduciary breach as a defense and sue for damages. Since I live in NJ and Wyndham is in NJ, I will be pro se and let them foot their legal fees. I always wanted to be a lawyer and this would make my day. I would ask for jury trial as is my right.


----------



## "Roger" (Aug 23, 2007)

I am having trouble following the complaint about Pahio.  First of all, they joined RCI Points at the outset.  So Wyndham is not introducing points to the Pahio system. They have been around since the inception of RCI Points. What Wyndham is doing is introducing Fairfield Points, but only at units that are bought or converted into that system. (As far as I can see, this _might_ have ramifications as to which units are available at Bali Hai, but little else.)

RCI Points owners do not get any jump on Weeks owners as to when they can reserve a unit at Pahio. 

The advantages of buying into the Points system at Pahio do not lie with competition against other Pahio owners.  If someone intends to use their own unit (floating or otherwise), they would be much better off not paying the conversion fee.  They would be paying for what they already have.

(As far as Escapes! goes, I understand your complaint.  What needs to be changed is the ten month reserve date for owners.  I agree that this should not be out of sync with the Points reservation period.)


----------



## tombo (Aug 23, 2007)

*Pahio is just a concern*

I have no idea what changes if any Wyndham will make with regards to Pahio. I am just concerned due to the Escapes points issue. I am sure points are great for some owners and I am glad that there are plenty of points resorts for sale. My complaint is that a sold out resort should be sold out except for resales. If it was originally sold as points, great it's points. If it was sold as weeks, let it remain weeks. Don't change the situation at the resorts by changing the from weeks to points. The sales people make more money, the resorts make more money, but there are no new weeks or units created. They simply charge the owners more money for a resort they already own and have paid for in full. RCI tells you that if you don't convert to points that eventually you will have a hard time trading because everyone is going to points, and all the inventory will be available only to points owners. SO GIVE ME $1000'S MORE FOR A WEEK YOU ALREADY OWN AT A RESORT YOU ALREADY OWN. If you don't your week will become obsolete. Now Bluegreen says you bought points from us, but they are only worth full value if bought from Bluegreen or an authorized reseller. So much for selling your investment. Fairfield has a special classification for owners with a large number of points, but you don't qualify if your points were bought resale. Except for Disney, most of the points resorts try to make the points  less valuable to resell than if bought from the developer.It is a calculated ripoff trying  to make what you own worth less than what they are selling. If you own a week, a week 25 is a week 25, they can't do anything to diminish that when you re-sell except by charging large resort transfer fees. I also don't believe that you should pay high maintenance fees at places like FF Ocean Walk, but your points are only worth the same as an equal number of points at a less desirable resort with much lower maintenance fees. Anyway my point is that if I own a week at a weeks resort, paid for in full, I am tired of resorts and RCI trying to extort money out of me by making my weeks less valuable. If they want to make more money they need to build new resorts.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 23, 2007)

tombo said:


> I have no idea what changes if any Wyndham will make with regards to Pahio. I am just concerned due to the Escapes points issue. I am sure points are great for some owners and I am glad that there are plenty of points resorts for sale. My complaint is that a sold out resort should be sold out except for resales. If it was originally sold as points, great it's points. If it was sold as weeks, let it remain weeks. Don't change the situation at the resorts by changing the from weeks to points. The sales people make more money, the resorts make more money, but there are no new weeks or units created. They simply charge the owners more money for a resort they already own and have paid for in full. RCI tells you that if you don't convert to points that eventually you will have a hard time trading because everyone is going to points, and all the inventory will be available only to points owners. SO GIVE ME $1000'S MORE FOR A WEEK YOU ALREADY OWN AT A RESORT YOU ALREADY OWN. If you don't your week will become obsolete. Now Bluegreen says you bought points from us, but they are only worth full value if bought from Bluegreen or an authorized reseller. So much for selling your investment. Fairfield has a special classification for owners with a large number of points, but you don't qualify if your points were bought resale. Except for Disney, most of the points resorts try to make the points  less valuable to resell than if bought from the developer.It is a calculated ripoff trying  to make what you own worth less than what they are selling. If you own a week, a week 25 is a week 25, they can't do anything to diminish that when you re-sell except by charging large resort transfer fees. I also don't believe that you should pay high maintenance fees at places like FF Ocean Walk, but your points are only worth the same as an equal number of points at a less desirable resort with much lower maintenance fees. Anyway my point is that if I own a week at a weeks resort, paid for in full, I am tired of resorts and RCI trying to extort money out of me by making my weeks less valuable. If they want to make more money they need to build new resorts.



Welcome to the world of capitalism.  You have free choice.  If your resort and timesharing no longer works for you, you are free to sell it and go buy something else like a fractional or a destination club.  All businesses change over time.  Nothing is static.  If anything remains static, it withers away and dies.  That's just the way it is for virtually everything.

If you think the fixed week business model is better, buy up all the weeks and sell them with your business as weeks only.  The bottom line is that you DO NOT own the other weeks at your resort.  Other owners do. If they convert of their own free will, it's their right to do so.  Just like it is your right to buy everything else up or sell and boycott timesharing.


----------



## tombo (Aug 24, 2007)

*In response, I shouldn't have to choose*

Welcome to the world of capitalism. You have free choice.

Your statements  above sound like they came straight from Bluegreen or Fairfield, but they are not true. I do not have free choice, the rules since I purchased are being changed. I do not want to sell, I do not want to buy points, I want the resort to remain as advertised and as originally sold. No one tells you when you buy that years later they are going to charge you more to keep your weeks valuable. It is sold as a hedge against inflation, a one time purchase locking in your vacations at today's prices. The only thing you are ever supposed to spend in the future is maintenance fees and possibly assessments for upkeep on the resort. It is called a timehshare because all owners share weeks. To give owners extra priviledges over other owners if they spend more money years after the resort was sold out is extortion. The developer is forcing you to pay additional money to maintain your timeshare's value for something the developer has spent no additional money on. If you don't you will lose value in your original purchase, as compared to other owners who pay the extortion fee. Your statement that I am free to sell it is true, however I shouldn't have to sell it. Unscrupulous, greedy developers have found a way to make more money from people they already fleeced when they sold the units in the first place. Now they sock it to them again even though they have not maintained or improved the resort through the years, we the owners did that with our maintenance fees. You said all businesses change over time or wither and die. Well the only businesses that the points conversions are preventing from withering away are the developers who have built very few or no new resorts to sell their points or weeks at.  The resorts will self sustain. Instead ,the developers go back with a new strategy to make more money from resorts they built years ago, or by buying old run down resorts and selling points at them extolling the fact that you never have to stay here, use your points for a good location. Simple math tells you that if no one wants to stay at numerous poor locations, then some people will end up with points and no where decent to use them.  Also the developer can raise the number of points needed in the future to stay at the resorts causing owners to have to buy more points just to be able to use their existing points. If the developers want to change to prevent withering away, how about this, sell new weeks or new points at NEWLY BUILT RESORTS! Capitalism prospers when a good service is sold for a good price. To simply keep sucking the life out of resorts that they built years ago is a definite recipe for failure, and it is why timeshares have such a bad name. I still say there is a great class action lawsuit out there if a good lawyer wants to take it and I will join. What I will not do is let the developers run me off because I like timeshares, I just don't like being charged for something I already own. No one convert your weeks to points and they will eventually quit this practice. If it wasn't more advantageous for the developer to take your week from you and turn it into points, they would also for a fee let you turn your points into a week. Developers never deal where you come out ahead which is why all of us here only buy resale. Once they have points they can change the rules at anytime. Fairfield won't let you be a VIP owner anymore (even if you own enough points) if you didn't buy the points from them. Points should be points. Bluegreen now devalues resale points unless they were purchased from Blugreen or one of their handpicked authorized dealers. If you bought Bluegreen points, selling them should be the same for you as it is for Bluegreen, points should be points. Who knows what new ways developers will figure out to cheat you out of the value of your purchase in the future. RCI points salesmen are now saying that points are the only way you will be able to trade in the future. If enough of us keep our weeks that won't be true, and I can and will quit RCI at anytime that I feel they aren't looking out for me their customer.  You are correct,I am free to exercise my rights. I  have the right to vocally complain against what I see as unfair business practices and greedy developers using scare tactics to get owners to  reliquish their weeks to them for big bucks, receiving points who's values are subject to change with the developers new strategies. I like timeshares and I am glad I found TUG. Anything worth having is worth fighting for. Tom


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 24, 2007)

Keep fighting for what you believe in Tom.  I wish you good luck in your endeavors.  It's a noble cause to fight for something you truly believe in.

Me, I just don't believe in that cause.  And, I believe you would lose any Class action lawsuit to correct what you believe is an injustice because what is happening isn't illegal.  Such a lawsuit would be nothing more than imposing your value system onto others.  I am violently opposed to you forcing your opinion of what you want onto me. You don't want others to be able to exercise their free choice to move to something better if they think it as such.

If there are 1000 owners of fixed weeks at your resort and 500 of them converted to points, those owners who converted agreed and voted with their own money that the new thing is better than what they had.  You want to take that right away from them.   That is what I am against.

Sure, all developers are scumbags.  They cheat owners by overcharging after luring them in with free gifts and closing them hard while discouraging them from looking too closely at what they are buying.  And, they take proactive actions to devalue ownerships.  THEY ALL DO IT.  EVEN DISNEY who is probably one of the more eggegious.  They just take it away from you in 2042 or 2054.  Talk about thievery.

The bottom line is that this is the nature of the beast.  And, it can be and is worthwhile even with those bad attributes.  That's why I stay in it.  Buying a timeshare is like buying a car.  It needs constant work and it depreciates over time.  But, people buy and enjoy them all the time and are happy about it.  If someone does timesharing right, it can be the single best value for family travel of any kind.

All of us need to make a choice.  Play the game and win at it, fight it and get further aggrevated, or, just leave because we can't take it anymore.  My philosophy is best captured in the following quote:

"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, 
the courage to change the things I can, and 
the wisdom to know the difference." 

  --  Saint Francis of Assisi


----------



## bluehende (Aug 24, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Me, I just don't believe in that cause.  And, I believe you would lose any Class action lawsuit to correct what you believe is an injustice because what is happening isn't illegal.  Such a lawsuit would be nothing more than imposing your value system onto others.  I am violently opposed to you forcing your opinion of what you want onto me. You don't want others to be able to exercise their free choice to move to something better if they think it as such.
> 
> If there are 1000 owners of fixed weeks at your resort and 500 of them converted to points, those owners who converted agreed and voted with their own money that the new thing is better than what they had.  You want to take that right away from them.   That is what I am against.



Boca;
   If there were 1000 people in your town and 501 voted to have you thrown out of town and take your property with no compensation I imagine you would be violently opposed to this also.  Our society protects the minority from the majority.  The original poster is saying that he is afraid that something he researched, and subsequently purchased is now being taken away.  He bought the right to reserve ANY week at 10 months.  Now through this points conversion ( at a huge cost to him and bonus to the developer) he will now have the right to reserve what is left of the weeks thus making him a second class citizen at best.

Wayne


----------



## ouaifer (Aug 24, 2007)

bluehende said:


> Boca;
> ..... He bought the right to reserve ANY week at 10 months.  Now through this points conversion ( at a huge cost to him and bonus to the developer) he will now have the right to reserve what is left of the weeks thus making him a second class citizen at best.
> 
> Wayne



I believe that if you check your recorded deed, that the words are _not_ as you have written.  It probably says he has purchased a week of use...and does not indicate how or when it can be reserved.  If I am incorrect, sorry.  You can't rely on the words that a sales person has fed you.  Just because he _said_ something, doesn't make it true.  Whatever is in  your deed, is what you (and the sales' force) abide by.

You still have the right to reserve and use your week.  We, who remain weeks' owners, still use our weeks efficiently.  Please remember, that _RCI is *not* the only choice in all of this._  The idea of exchanging is wonderful, but change has happened multiple times in the past 30 years that we have owned Timeshares.  We no longer deal with RCI.  We still reserve our Pahio weeks when we want them...and have had no trouble.  You have numerous options, if you want to exchange and not use your week!


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 24, 2007)

tombo said:


> I do not have free choice, the rules since I purchased are being changed. I do not want to sell, I do not want to buy points, I want the resort to remain as advertised and as originally sold. No one tells you when you buy that years later they are going to charge you more to keep your weeks valuable.



Tom -  Actually when you have a sold out, deeded resort such as your Escapes seems to be they (the developer/sales force) can talk a good game but in reality they cannot change what you purchased.  Anything they manage to do with points or other schemes you may not wish to be involved with amount to nothing more than another exchange option for those who choose to buy in.  Even if they move into one of the currently "fashionable" trust type operations the underlying product is and always will be a deeded, float week subject to the rules and regulations that apply to all owners equally. 

There is no question that the sales weasels will do anything and everything to make it sound like you will be mossing out or that your ownership is somehow devalued if you don't buy in. Hogwash.  What you bought is still as good (or as bad in some cases) as it was on day one.  I also applaud your desire to warn others about the tactics the sales weasels use to try to convince you and your fellow owners to pay more.  It is a good fight to wage. But they really can't take away your rights to what you bought and there is even a bigger fight you'll need to embrace if they actually try to.


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 24, 2007)

bluehende said:


> Boca;
> If there were 1000 people in your town and 501 voted to have you thrown out of town and take your property with no compensation I imagine you would be violently opposed to this also.  Our society protects the minority from the majority.  The original poster is saying that he is afraid that something he researched, and subsequently purchased is now being taken away.  He bought the right to reserve ANY week at 10 months.  Now through this points conversion ( at a huge cost to him and bonus to the developer) he will now have the right to reserve what is left of the weeks thus making him a second class citizen at best.
> 
> Wayne



Repeating this doesn't make it true. The owners that opt in to the points system are merely taking their weeks that they have every right to and placing them in yet another version of an exchange company - and an expensive one at that.  As already covered above unless the management is playing fast and loose with the rules no one gets anything more than they have in the past even if one groups weeks have a different reservation window. It doesn't affect the non-points members inventory or rights.  It is a false argument to say it would. I don't like developers, especially those that overstay their welcome, either. But unless some rules/regs/laws are being blatantly ignored all owners get what they bought no matter how many exchange schemes come around.


----------



## bogey21 (Aug 24, 2007)

For clarification assume everyone but Tom converts to Points.  What can he exchange into? If is nothing, hasn't he lost something?

GEORGE


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 24, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> For clarification assume everyone but Tom converts to Points.  What can he exchange into? If is nothing, hasn't he lost something?
> 
> GEORGE



Yes, George, I believe there is going to be a loss of value to weeks at PAHIO within Wyndham.  I think he is right.  The salesperson we met with in April was very sure that we would lose our ability to use our choice of weeks within their new points system.  VIP can get weeks ahead of us, is what he told us.  This was one of the reasons why we were going to convert, but I don't see many people taking the plunge.  I also don't see Fairfield owners rushing to exchange into PAHIO at the current point values.  

308,000 points for a two bedroom at PAHIO @ Bali Hai:

$4.50 per 1,000 points seems to be an average cost for MF's

308 X 4.50 = $1,386 to stay there.  Our maintenance fees are under $900 for our two bedroom

Three bedrooms are 500,000 (we own a penthouse, unit 1026)

500 X 4.50 = $2,250.  Who will pay that?  The VIP Platinum members will be grabbing these units within 60 days for half the cost in fees.  But according to the sales office at PAHIO, only 1.7% of owners (how do you put that in decimals?) are VIP Platinum.  

I have a lot more to say on this but have to go to the office for a little while.


----------



## Holly (Aug 24, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> For clarification assume everyone but Tom converts to Points.  What can he exchange into? If is nothing, hasn't he lost something?
> 
> GEORGE



He would still have the week that is on his deed wouldn't he?

I have a similar situation at the Pono Kai.  I have a 1-52 week float unit, but my deed has a particular week on it, (sometime in October, I think).  As more and more of my fellow owners convert to points, I have less and less of a chance of  booking Christmas week, etc.  However, I will ALWAYS have that week in October.  Does it make it less valuable that it's harder and harder to reserve "better weeks?", sure it does.  However, I look at it as a loophole slowly closing...very slowly, I might add...I'm still getting the weeks I want when I reserve).  Bottom line, they can't take away the week that is on my deed.  

In timesharing, what's on the deed is what can't be changed.  Anything else is up for grabs.  I'm free to sell my fixed week at Pono Kai anytime I want to.  Someday I might...that day will probably happen when it stops working for me.  Until then, I'll continue to exploit every loophole I can find.


----------



## "Roger" (Aug 24, 2007)

Two comments:

I think people are making too much of the week on their deed.  If you have a floating week, the assigned week used for deeding purposes means nothing (unless the resort goes into bankrupcy).  You have no more entitlement to that week than any other.  The rules governing how floating weeks are assigned within the covenent win out.

It is interesting to see how we are reacting to sales talk.  When a sales person is facing an uninitiated timesharer, they appeal to his or her dreams.  ("Look at this RCI/II vacation book. All of these locations will become available to you.  Think of the wonderful vacations you can have at some of these resorts.")  As TUGGERs we have become accustomed to recognizing that much (most) of this is just sales talk.  We would all be skeptical as to whether the presentation meets reality.  Now, with sales people appealling to our fears ("You won't be able to use your week anymore.  You'll be lucky if you get a closet at our resort."), we are falling all over thinking that this must be gospel truth.  I, for one, am just as skeptical.


----------



## PerryM (Aug 24, 2007)

*Free choices are good...*

*RCI Points is great for everyone involved* – the developer, the owner, and RCI.  This is especially true for a mature resort, with no active sales by the developer.

*Developer:*
What does the developer do when active new sales ends at a resort?  They either get involved with resales or go on they merry way.  RCI Points allows the developer to fatten his wallet – RCI Points just wants $199 per unit to convert – but the developers/HOA’s can add any amount of money to that – up to $3,000+ in cases.  The developer/HOA may want to get into daily, instead of 7 day, usage of the units – that might mean a software upgrade and retraining of their reservation personnel.  But, for the most part, its pure profit.

*RCI Points:*
Well, they get to sell a new product and offer new services to their customers – that’s why they are in business.

*RCI:*
RCI get’s to pioneer and dominate the timeshare rental industry – they rent out units for folks like me who opted to use their RCI Points for airline tickets – thanks RCI.  I believe the timeshare industry is in the midst of a sea change where timeshare rentals are alternatives to timeshare ownership.

I believe RCI realizes that there is a HUGE glut of timeshares out there and that so many people own duplicates and more that can’t be used for vacationing – rentals is the byproduct.  This is NOT going to go away – the glut I mean. 

*Owner:*
Some owners, like myself, find that the RCI Points offer airline tickets that the MF of a standard reservation can’t provide – I love this.  Some folks face thousands of dollars to convert to RCI Points and only they can judge whether it’s a good deal or not.  We found a developer who just charged $199 to add RCI Points.

*Conclusion:*
RCI Points is here to stay – check if it is something you need.  If you don’t need it don’t join.  If you believe RCI is no longer a viable exchange partner find another one.

These are all free choices in a free society.  And what is the alternative?  Lawyers, Attorney Generals, the courts?  You all know that these don't work and you just pay to make all the lawyers rich who get involved with this.

Have a heart to heart talk with your timeshare portfolio - there are so many ways to use timeshares to maximize your money that to get stuck on RCI Points is a waste of your time and money.


----------



## bogey21 (Aug 24, 2007)

Holly said:


> He would still have the week that is on his deed wouldn't he?



True, but didn't he also buy (or think he bought) the right to exchange his Week for another Week at his Resort?   If he did, he lost something in my example as there are now no Weeks to exchange into.  They are all in points.

GEORGE


----------



## bogey21 (Aug 24, 2007)

"Roger" said:


> I think people are making too much of the week on their deed.  If you have a floating week, the assigned week used for deeding purposes means nothing (unless the resort goes into bankrupcy).  You have no more entitlement to that week than any other.



Not sure this is always the case.  I believe that in some Resorts the owner of a floating Week has first crack at his deeded Week.

GEORGE


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 24, 2007)

bluehende said:


> Boca;
> If there were 1000 people in your town and 501 voted to have you thrown out of town and take your property with no compensation I imagine you would be violently opposed to this also.  Our society protects the minority from the majority.  The original poster is saying that he is afraid that something he researched, and subsequently purchased is now being taken away.  He bought the right to reserve ANY week at 10 months.  Now through this points conversion ( at a huge cost to him and bonus to the developer) he will now have the right to reserve what is left of the weeks thus making him a second class citizen at best.
> 
> Wayne



Your initial statement is ludicrous.  Nobody is voting to throw the OP out of  his timeshare.  He still owns what he originally bought.  He can use it according to the original rules of ownership and he can use the same week he purchased every year.  I fail to see how that is analogous to being thrown out without compensation.  For some reason, you are simply trying to grant him more than he actually bought.  That is unfair. 

See, here is the fallacy of your argument.  He bought the right to reserve ANY AVAILABLE week at 10 months.  Not ANY week.  If he bought the right to reserve ANY week, he would have bought a full condo.  He didn't.  In exchange for a much lower fee (but higher per week most likely), he got something that approximated something that was any week during the year.  The risk he took is that the other owners would all work to maximize the system for themselves.   If and when that happened, he gets relegated to his own fixed week.  That's ACTUALLY what he bought.  It just felt like he had more when he first started since other owners were subsiding his availability by not using their timeshares.  Well, guess what?  They got tired of it and did something else with their ownership.   

If others who have the same right, turn those rights over to the developer.  And, they decide that paying the extra money to the developer is a superior value to what they originally had, then their rights as property owners in this free, capitalistic society allows them to do it.

If it doesn't work for him, he doesn't need to convert and pay the fees.  That's his right, too.  As long as everyone is playing by the rules, this works.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 24, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> For clarification assume everyone but Tom converts to Points.  What can he exchange into? If is nothing, hasn't he lost something?
> 
> GEORGE



No, he hasn't.  He bought a deeded week with an option to float to any other week within a season.  He still has that right.   The only difference is that every other owner decided to exercise their right for their deeded week and deposit it with the points company and they pay the developer a steep price so that they do it for them.

The exact same outcome could happen if all owners at the resort became ultra focused on maximizing their ownership and became much better at the reservation game than our OP.  That is in essence what would happen.  They paid the developer a fee to be the first to wake up using the fastest telephone technology on the planet to be the first to book the units they did.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 24, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> True, but didn't he also buy (or think he bought) the right to exchange his Week for another Week at his Resort?   If he did, he lost something in my example as there are now no Weeks to exchange into.  They are all in points.
> 
> GEORGE



No, he didn't buy the right to exchange without limit into another week at the resort.  He bought the right to compete with other owners for any available week at the resort.  When they are all booked and gone, he can only book what is left when he calls.  When everyone converts to points, they in essence hire the resort developer to call for them and book and deposit their week for them.


----------



## tombo (Aug 25, 2007)

*Another explanation for why I started this thread*

I bought the right to reserve any week 1-52 at my resort. I have a week listed in my deed, but it means nothing unless I convert to THE NEW POINTS RIPOFF. I have a week that floats 1-52, not a deeded week I am guaranteed to use. The bluegreen forum guy comments say that he hates to be forced to do anything. He has no problem with the developer pressuring the resort to change the entire way that they have done business since the resort's inception. If they were sold as a weeks resort, operated as a weeks resort, and survived as a weeks resort for years, why should the developers have the right to change the resort at all? He feels like he can do anything with his weeks he wants to. Can he turn a 1 bed room into a 2 bed room unit for a fee? Can he turn 10,000 points into 100,000 for a fee? this is done at a resort where everyone else remains the same as they have been unless they PAY TO "UPGRADE" Well if he bought 10,000 points at his resort in GF points, and the developer later sold the option for  upgraded GF "gold" Points, which are worth 2 times as much as the points he bought,  and they allowed the owners to reserve a month earlier than the original owners who didn't pay to upgrade to the "GOLD" points, then that would be fine because any owner can do what he wants with his points. Now the developer raises how many points a red week takes to reserve to the point at which he no longer can reserve red weeks as he could when he originally purchased.  This is OK because owners can do whatever they want with their weeks.He originally bought enough points to reserve any week during the year, but now if he does not not buy the new GF GOLD points he can no longer reserve the red weeks. This is OK because the owners deserve to do whatever they want to do with their weeks. After the sales of GF GOLD points slows down the developer comes up with GF GOLD POINTS PLUS allowing the owners to book an additional month in advance of the GOLD PLUS owners, and 2 months in advance of the original points owners for an additional fee. This too is OK because owners can do whatever they want with their weeks. According to him it is OK because the owners are doing this. Bullcrap, the developers are doing this. An owner can't just decide to pay more money to someone for their week and get an advantage over other owners. This comes from the developers developing a new strategy to make money. If you buy a week at  a weeks resort, then owners can't just become points owners with their weeks by paying more money. The owners can't sell their weeks to a homeless shelter, they can't allow pets, they can't allow 12 people to stay in their studio, they cant do anything they want with their week. The owners have to follow the rules of the HOA. The developers find a way around the status quo. THE GREEDY DEVELOPERS TOTALLY FORGET THE SALES PITCHES THEY USED WHEN THEY ORIGINALLY SOLD THE RESORT.  THIS IS A ONE TIME INVESTMENT, YOU ARE LOCKING IN FUTURE VACATIONS AT TODAY'S PRICES,THE ONLY THING YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY TO VACATION FROM NOW ON IS YOUR MAINTENANCE FEE.  Where is the you will have to pay us more in the future or lose value to those who do pay us more? They figure out ways to make you feel as though you have to pay more to maintain the value of your purchase. He says the owners can do what they want with their weeks.......... WRONG!!!! The owners should be able to sell their weeks, rent their weeks, loan their weeks, and bank their weeks. No where in any sales presentation I have sat through have they told me that in the future for a price people can "upgrade their weeks" making your week less valuable unless you also pay more to upgrade. To diminish the value of  the weeks or points you own if you don't pay additional money to the developer is criminal. I am sure that their big corporate lawyers have figured out loopholes to make it legal, but it is not right.By the way Pahio is not just being bought by Wyndham for the Bali Hai expansion. I just sold a week at Kauai Beach Villas to a guy that said that he had bought one recently and the resort execised their right of first refusal. I said surelly not this time....... wrong. He couldn't buy mine either because they exercised their ROFR on him again. So wyndham is getting their foot in the door of all of the Pahio resorts making me worry about the value of my floating week in the future. I feel pretty sure that they will not own enough weeks here to affect me but I am scared. Still fighting the fight, Tom


----------



## tombo (Aug 25, 2007)

*Blugreen Forum Guy Lie*

I  want to point out that the points management group is not better at competing for weeks than I am, they have created an advantage for owners who convert to points so they can book a month earlier than me. Good competition. Like letting a runner start way ahead of the other racers and saying it was a fair race. As for the booking of floating points weeks by the points mgt group who controls the computers versus us dialing in on the phone, I know you don't believe that anyone here including yourself thinks that is fair. Before the ripoff points conversion, the first to get in to the operator on the phone was the first to reserve. To change that so that developers can line their pockets once again on a resort they have already made their money on is sad. The fact that you justify it makes me think you are a corporate points employee. Keep posting remarks like that and you will help me convince more people that converting to points is a ripoff than I ever could have otherwise. Thanks for helping prove my point. Tom


----------



## ouaifer (Aug 25, 2007)

If you do a search here on TUG, you will find multiple past passionate Threads about pros and cons of buying/selling/converting to Points.  There are several who are highly opinionated about Points, and those who are passionate about Weeks.  Please do not revisit that here.  It has been rehashed many times, and always turns into a brawl!


----------



## PerryM (Aug 25, 2007)

*HOA HOA HOA, and that's not Santa speaking.....*

Tombo,

Buying a timeshare is not like buying a car – it comes with a lot of baggage built in.

The Home Owners Association (HOA) is elected, by the owners, to run the resort – they can make any changes you can imagine (within the local law).  For a resort under construction the developer gets to vote his unsold interest in the resort – he can order the conversion to RCI Points if he wants.

The mature resort, one the developer has sold out, probably has developer cronies on the HOA and still runs the place, indirectly.  This is life.

*As a consumer you have few choices, mainly – use it or lose it*.  If you are unhappy – sell your unit.  You might lose a bunch of money in the process or heck, make some money too.

What you’ve alerted us to is old news here – we have heard the complaints dozens of times.  You can use the “Search” facility on this chat room and spend a week reading your exact situation over and over again.

Many of the problems you describe should be addressed to the HOA – however, you will usually find them fixed in their decisions.  So make sure you understand the situation and then either accept it and use your timeshare or sell it and move on.

Venting your frustration here will do no good – there isn’t a thing we can do.  Asking for advice is a much better course of action.

Consumer activism is something that is a waste of time - use the rules as they exist or just move on to the next opportunity - there are hundreds of them.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2007)

Tombo, I can empathize, as we have been frustrated with points at PAHIO as well.  First they sell weeks, then RCI points (we are resale buyers and couldn't even convert to points), now they are selling Fairshare Plus.  Always something new to sell.  Makes me angry, too.  The salesman made me scared that we wouldn't be able to reserve as the past, too.  

You should see all the griping on the Fairfield Yahoo group about the changes in their system.  They are taking away many of the benefits that were promised to VIP members.  Plus, the original system allowed even resale owners to have the same benefits as developer purchases.  That has changed.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2007)

Smaller paragraphs would help us read your posts better.  Remember high school English composition class?  3 to 7 sentences, maximum, in a paragraph.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2007)

ouaifer said:


> If you do a search here on TUG, you will find multiple past passionate Threads about pros and cons of buying/selling/converting to Points.  There are several who are highly opinionated about Points, and those who are passionate about Weeks.  Please do not revisit that here.  It has been rehashed many times, and always turns into a brawl!




You're completely off-track by saying this is a points versus weeks issue.  This is totally different.  Tombo is worried that he is going to lose what he originally purchased because PAHIO keeps changing what they are selling.


----------



## PerryM (Aug 25, 2007)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You're complete off-track by saying this is a points versus weeks issue.  This is totally different.  Tombo is worried that he is going to lose what he originally purchased because PAHIO keeps changing what they are selling.



Cindy, many of us might have made the wrong assumption - that monolith block of a post was hard to digest.

I'm assuming that original PAHIO owners still have all their rights and privileges of ownership and that new programs, which were optional, have just added new benefits?


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 25, 2007)

tombo said:


> I bought the right to reserve any week 1-52 at my resort. I have a week listed in my deed, but it means nothing unless I convert to THE NEW POINTS RIPOFF. I have a week that floats 1-52, not a deeded week I am guaranteed to use.



Tom - you are misinterpreting the change. Nothing they are doing is removing your rights to reserve weeks 1-52. The points people / buyers are getting a different way to reserve the time they also have a right to reserve - not taking your rights away.  When you buy a float resort the deeded week really does mean nothing (it is a bookkeeping measure to hopefully ensure they only sell as many use periods as they actually have - always a worry for people) except it usually sets the level of use rights you own. If you have rights to reserve all weeks then yours seems to be a top value time.  

I hope you are not focusing in on a false assumption regarding whatever a sales weasel told you about "only points can reserve the best times", etc as that garbage is often spewed by the weasels. It means nothing. Concentrate on your rights under your declaration and deed and try to make sure your HOA/Board?Management is protecting your right to use/reserve what you bought. Nothing they do about points can impact your rights as they were when you purchased.



tombo said:


> THE GREEDY DEVELOPERS TOTALLY FORGET THE SALES PITCHES THEY USED WHEN THEY ORIGINALLY SOLD THE RESORT. THIS IS A ONE TIME INVESTMENT, YOU ARE LOCKING IN FUTURE VACATIONS AT TODAY'S PRICES,THE ONLY THING YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY TO VACATION FROM NOW ON IS YOUR MAINTENANCE FEE.



This part you absolutely have right. They (the developers) will do seemingly anything to try to sell more, try to stay ons iste, hold on to control & management.  It is always best if things flow as they were intended and the resort is proposed, built, sold out and the developer passes control/management to the owners. Far too often this doesn't happen and then the trouble begins.  Another battle worth fighting. Get an independent owner Board and independent management at your resort.


----------



## johnmfaeth (Aug 25, 2007)

Some facts which may clarify

1) Yes the week on the deed is significant, that's what you own.

2) If you were the last owner of a fixed week, then you would get the week # on your deed as that week is the only one which would be placed in the "pool" of weeks you draw from.

3) If there was only two owners left, their two weeks (as spelled out on the deed) would be in the "pool" for each to draw from, first reservation get's its pick.

4) All remaiing deeded week owners will still be depositing into their "pool". But demand equally drops when an owner no longer is depoiting into that pool but into the "points pool" - totally separate.

5) No resort ever converts 100% of it's people to points. From my experiences owning for years at resorts where points are pushed, 1/4 converting is a big #. Many people don't like the complexity of points and like what they have.

Hope this helps...


----------



## PerryM (Aug 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> <snip>
> 4) All remaiing deeded week owners will still be depositing into their "pool". But demand equally drops when an owner no longer is depoiting into that pool but into the "points pool" - totally separate.
> 
> 5) No resort ever converts 100% of it's people to points. From my experiences owning for years at resorts where points are pushed, 1/4 converting is a big #. Many people don't like the complexity of points and like what they have.
> <snip>



Now this makes sense and there is little to fret over.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2007)

Guys, part of Carlos' sales pitch for Fairshare Plus (we visited in April) was clearly meant to undermine the value of what weeks' owners have.  He very clearly stated to us that we are going to get last pick because VIP Platinum members will always get inventory over the lowly weeks' owners.  I think he was lying through his teeth.  

We bought and then rescinded.  We rent out all of our Hawaii weeks, so why pay more money to rent out our weeks? 

I don't know if Tombo just attended a presentation recently and heard the same thing.  If he did, I understand his concern.  

I asked Boca what he thought of Carlos' assertion that we would not be able to pick any week we want, when we met him on Oahu the next week.  Boca said the guy was lying to sell us on Fairshare Plus.  That made it easier to rescind.


----------



## timeos2 (Aug 25, 2007)

*Look it's a lying weasel! First I've seen since yesterday*



rickandcindy23 said:


> Guys, part of Carlos' sales pitch for Fairshare Plus (we visited in April) was clearly meant to undermine the value of what weeks' owners have.  He very clearly stated to us that we are going to get last pick because VIP Platinum members will always get inventory over the lowly weeks' owners.  I think he was lying through his teeth.



Cindy - You know the common wisdom - if a timeshare sales weasel is spewing chances are its at best a half-truth and usually just an outright lie.  Unfortunately the Wyndham system is one of the worst for twisting facts and making their own owners feel nervous.  What a way to run sales for an otherwise great system.   So ignore them - take their goodies and, should you ever buy Wyndham, buy resale.


----------



## ouaifer (Aug 25, 2007)

I just don't get it!

When are you going to stop believing what the sales people are pitching?
They have only one thing in their mind...and that is to make money for themselves..._commissions ring a bell_?

Pahio owners have the right to make their reservations before anyone!  Forget about what the salesmen are telling you.  
They are wrong!  And that's a known fact.

We can still put in our reservation requests 14 months in advance!
We still reserve like for like...if you have a first floor unit, you can reserve a first floor unit...If you have a penthouse, you reserve a penthouse.  You also have first dibs on requesting an upgrade!  These are the bennies for the weeks owners.

Wyndham has stated they are not changing this way of operation.  If you are in Bali Hai...they are still developing that...and that is why they are trying to sell you more.  Who is to benefit?  Definitely Wyndham...perhaps the owners, if you enjoy points and different flexibility.  If you want to go back to Kaua'i every year at a time that you love...do _*not*_ sell yourself out and buy what they are selling.  You have already purchased your week...just keep it.


----------



## ouaifer (Aug 25, 2007)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You're completely off-track by saying this is a points versus weeks issue.  This is totally different.  Tombo is worried that he is going to lose what he originally purchased because PAHIO keeps changing what they are selling.




To say that I am _off track_ is a bit of a stretch.  It was meant as a warning to _not stray into past waters_, by wearing my Moderator's hat.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 25, 2007)

tombo said:


> I  want to point out that the points management group is not better at competing for weeks than I am, they have created an advantage for owners who convert to points so they can book a month earlier than me. Good competition. Like letting a runner start way ahead of the other racers and saying it was a fair race. As for the booking of floating points weeks by the points mgt group who controls the computers versus us dialing in on the phone, I know you don't believe that anyone here including yourself thinks that is fair. Before the ripoff points conversion, the first to get in to the operator on the phone was the first to reserve. To change that so that developers can line their pockets once again on a resort they have already made their money on is sad. The fact that you justify it makes me think you are a corporate points employee. Keep posting remarks like that and you will help me convince more people that converting to points is a ripoff than I ever could have otherwise. Thanks for helping prove my point. Tom



Tom,

I don't appreciate being called a liar.  What did I lie about?  Just read the rest of the posts on this thread and you will see that it's YOU who have your FACTS wrong.  

John Faeth has it exactly right.  Have YOU even bothered reading your disclosure documents for what you own and check the facts about what is actually happening in the conversions?  Well, I have.  And, I've read all of the statutes under which my ownerships have been formed.  What John says is correct.  You are getting yourself all lathered up on a scenario that is not likely to happen.  It is very unlikely that even a majority of the owners at your resort will convert.  It usually costs too much.  But, if they did, it is their right to do so.  That is the fact that you will not seem to accept.  That it is THEIR choice, not yours.  You want to take that choice away.

You think you purchased something when you actually purchased something else.  It's true that the sales guy that originally sold it to you probably helped to create a perception that you own something other than what you own.  But the fact remains that you have made some incorrect assumptions about what you own and therefore the property rights you have.

I know you don't like the situation.  But, it is what it is.  You can either keep fighting it, move to something else or accept it.

If you feel that lashing out at me makes you feel better, keep doing it.  I don't mind.  I have the truth on my side.  All you have is your unfounded opinion about me, what you own and what the developer can and should be able to do.

Good luck in your fight.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Aug 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Some facts which may clarify
> 
> 1) Yes the week on the deed is significant, that's what you own.
> 
> ...




I completely agree with your post.


----------



## Mel (Aug 31, 2007)

Beyond the fear that 99.9% of the other owners would convert, is the issue of the right the sales team is claiming for the owners that convert.   The fear is that Tom will be blocked out of all summer weeks, but let's look at the steps involved in that happening:

1 - all owners of weeks with summer designated on their deeds convert. (since it sounds like the week deeded was pure chance, they didn't buy those specific weeks on purpose).

2 - all those owners choose to reserve those specific weeks 12 months in advance - again, they aren't likely to have chosen the week listed on their deed.

The only way I see that happening is if all the owners of the "summer deeds" want to always use their own week.  But there is no true incentive, because nobody else can cut ahead of that owner under the exisiting rules.  This is a scare tactic.  The true benefit of points is the ability to use split reservations - but for every weekend reserved by one of these new points owners, another points owner will need to use the weekdays from that SAME week in order for the system to balance!  So much for flexibility.

Now, consider how reservations are handled if you're not using your 'deeded' week.  If all the summer owners convert, and they have a separate pool, none of them can reserve during the rest of the year (the times when points values are lower, allowing them to "stretch" their points).  Doesn't sound like a very useful points program to me.

Further, either what the management is doing is contrary to your condo docs, or your HOA approved these changes.  If most owners  move to this new system, that is an indication that most owners approve of this system - and thus your HOA would have little problem changing the condo docs.

But more than any of these arguments, remember who you got your information from.  A salesman who wanted you to convert.  To do that, he had to make the new program look much better than what you currently own.  Have we seen that before?  Perhaps in the original timeshare presentations?  Just because he implied that's how it will work, doesn't mean it really will - you would need to read all the contracts and other paperwork associated with the conversion to find the truth, and you still might not understand it because of the way it's written.

I don't advocate burying your head in the sand, so yes keep an eye on things.  But I think you're worrying too much about something that isn't going to happen.  They want you to be scared of the eventuality of losing the right to exchange, because that will make you more likely to convert.


----------



## tombo (Aug 31, 2007)

*I received a response to my complaint*

Here is the home office response response:The answer to your question is relatively simple. The inventory of weeks for Float owners and the inventory of weeks for ETC owners are completely separate pools, and therefore can have, and do have, different rules for usage. 

The weeks purchased by floating owners are available for reservation by floating owners.  The weeks purchased, and those dedicated for sale, by and to points owners are available for reservations by points owners.

Accordingly, the fact that points owners have a home resort priority right for their deeded week does not prejudice floating owners in any way, since the points inventory is not available to float owners for use.

Sincerely............


What Bull!!!!!!
There were no points owners here a couple of years ago so every week was available to every owner who purchased a week that floats 1-52. As with many floating resorts it is a fierce competition to get a prime summer week with owners on the phone dialing at the first available minute hoping to get a prime week. You will rarely trade into this resort because the owners almost always stay here and don't trade.


The fact that they allow points owners to reserve their own deeded week 12 months in advance as opposed to 10 months out for weeks is why most owners I talked to converted. They felt like $4000 to get the week they want every year without fighting for it on the phone is worth it. I understand that it is worth it to them but it makes it much harder to get a prime week for those who don't convert, and soon could prove impossible.

They said the points owner's advantage should not prejudice my week in any way since I can't access the point pool. They don't seem to mind that I had the same opportunity to reserve those prime weeks as the deeded owner had last year before they converted the deeded owner to points. I have a prime summer week on my deed, but if I don't convert I will have to compete against the remaining weeks owners for my week. If I do convert I will get my prime week every year guaranteed, the resort has made more money on a resort they should have been gone from, and I have limited even further the remaining weeks owner's ability to reserve a prime week. However I will be much better off than I was before points arrived for a large fee. 

If a resort is sold originally as points, it ought to remain points. If a resort is sold as weeks it should remain weeks. To change rules and procedures after a resort is sold out is wrong. To be almost forced to do it by the developer is in my opinion criminal.


PS to Boca, I apologize for the way my post sounded as far as the lie statement. I tried to change the heading but couldn't. I meant that it was a lie that other groups were better at reserving a week than me. If we all compete under the same rules I will reserve the week I am trying to get more often than not. I did not mean to imply that you were a liar in anyway and I again apologize for the misunderstanding


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 1, 2007)

*correct statement*



tombo said:


> The weeks purchased by floating owners are available for reservation by floating owners.  The weeks purchased, and those dedicated for sale, by and to points owners are available for reservations by points owners.


 
They have described it correctly and, if operated that way, will have ZERO impact on your ability to get the week you desire. Again if 20% of all float owner convert then only 20% of any given week can be reserved by Points.  You lose nothing.  




tombo said:


> The fact that they allow points owners to reserve their own deeded week 12 months in advance as opposed to 10 months out for weeks is why most owners I talked to converted. They felt like $4000 to get the week they want every year without fighting for it on the phone is worth it. I understand that it is worth it to them but it makes it much harder to get a prime week for those who don't convert, and soon could prove impossible.



Then they wasted their $4000. They only get a chance to reserve early for the 20% of weeks (or whatever the number really is - initially it will be much lower and they actually may have LESS chance at the good weeks) in the Points Pool as described above. As long as someone in points placed a week in that they desire they can reserve it - but if not their status hasn't changed. They cannot claim a July week if the number of July weeks in the points pool has already been reserved - points or no points - 13 months or 1 month. 

I think from your slight tone change your starting to realize that all the points buyers can create is a second pool of use. Use that they had a right to anyway but now gets assigned in a different manner but only for those that paid and only those weeks that joined. 

You really don't need to worry about this as long as you keep an eye that the management doesn't favor one group over another. That is not allowed under either system.


----------



## tombo (Sep 1, 2007)

*You are missing the point*

you stated:Then they wasted their $4000. They only get a chance to reserve early for the 20% of weeks (or whatever the number really is - initially it will be much lower and they actually may have LESS chance at the good weeks) in the Points Pool as described above. As long as someone in points placed a week in that they desire they can reserve it - but if not their status hasn't changed. They cannot claim a July week if the number of July weeks in the points pool has already been reserved - points or no points - 13 months or 1 month. 

 Response:Anyone who converts to points can reserve the week and unit listed on their deed 12 months in advance and no other owner can have a chance at it until 10 months in advance. Yes they can claim a July week, guaranteed, 2 months ahead of any other owner at the resort if it is listed on their deed and they convert to points. Once the have reserved the July week and unit listed on the deed 2 months ahead of any other owners, they can stay there, trade it , or rent it. 

There are only about 80 really prime weeks at the resort (8 weeks (21-28 ) times 10 2 bed units) available when your kids aren't in school. The only owners I talked to who are swapping to points have weeks 21-28 (a couple of 29-30 weeks) listed on their deeds. If you have week 27 (4th of July usually) listed on your deed, no one but you can reserve that week 11 or 12 months in advance if you swap to points, and that includes points owners. That turns the week from floating or points to virtually fixed with the points option. They have 100% guaranteed that they can reserve week 27 every year. A waste of $4000? They have stopped competing with owners like me for 4'th of july and now own the option to reserve week 27 every year 2 months before anyone else can. I booked 4th of july week last year as a floating owner. This year I was the first caller to the reservations on the first day it was possible for me to reserve 4th of July week 2008 and was told they were all gone. I said I am first caller how can that be. She said that the 4th of July inventory was virtually gone from the float pool. Of course this hasn't reduced my availability as many have stated.

Most on this site equate units (points or weeks) with trading power. This is not the situation here because this resort has one of the highest owner occupancy rates of any listed with II. There is no location I would rather trade for on a routine basis. I bought here to stay here using the floating weeks only option available to all. No one with a week 6 is going to convert hoping to reserve their week 6 ahead of everyone else. The only people taking advantage of this are owners with summer weeks on their deeds. There are 52 weeks in a year but only 8 to 10 prime weeks. This will leave almost all of the non prime 42 deeded weeks competing for the few prime weeks that didn't convert to points. The prime weeks will not be available to anyone points or weeks because the owners of those will noe reserve 12 months in advance.

Imagine if Marriott took Platinum Points and for a huge fee allowed the owners to lock in the week on their deed ahead of everyone else. You would never get New years Eve in Vegas or New York because most owners would lock in getting a fixed week. Same with Prime ski weeks and prime beach weeks. You would be left with a Platinum float, floating the less than prime inventory that was left.

I have less anger because I have passed that phase, and I rushed through the denial phase, and I am now into the acceptance phase. Don't believe for one second that I am happy! I am just convinced now that there is nothing I can do but sell or upgrade. I hate that the resort reduced my options to those 2 unacceptable choices.


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 1, 2007)

*They cannot pull out specific weeks if all buyers have rights to all weeks*



tombo said:


> you stated:Then they wasted their $4000. They only get a chance to reserve early for the 20% of weeks (or whatever the number really is - initially it will be much lower and they actually may have LESS chance at the good weeks) in the Points Pool as described above. As long as someone in points placed a week in that they desire they can reserve it - but if not their status hasn't changed. They cannot claim a July week if the number of July weeks in the points pool has already been reserved - points or no points - 13 months or 1 month.
> 
> Response:Anyone who converts to points can reserve the week and unit listed on their deed 12 months in advance and no other owner can have a chance at it until 10 months in advance. Yes they can claim a July week, guaranteed, 2 months ahead of any other owner at the resort if it is listed on their deed and they convert to points. Once the have reserved the July week and unit listed on the deed 2 months ahead of any other owners, they can stay there, trade it , or rent it.
> 
> There are only about 80 really prime weeks at the resort (8 weeks (21-28 ) times 10 2 bed units) available when your kids aren't in school. The only owners I talked to who are swapping to points have weeks 21-28 (a couple of 29-30 weeks) listed on their deeds. If you have week 27 (4th of July usually) listed on your deed, no one but you can reserve that week 11 or 12 months in advance if you swap to points, and that includes points owners. That turns the week from floating or points to virtually fixed with the points option. They have 100% guaranteed that they can reserve week 27 every year. A waste of $4000? They have stopped competing with owners like me for 4'th of july and now own the option to reserve week 27 every year 2 months before anyone else can. I booked 4th of july week last year as a floating owner. This year I was the first caller to the reservations on the first day it was possible for me to reserve 4th of July week 2008 and was told they were all gone. I said I am first caller how can that be. She said that the 4th of July inventory was virtually gone from the float pool. Of course this hasn't reduced my availability as many have stated.



What a great dialog this is becoming. If what you state here, that they get to remove the exact week on their deed, is true then the management/developer IS changing the rules (they don't own that specific week except to establish use rights - they own the rights to one week in the pool).  You do have a very legitimate complaint if the system is removing specific weeks, especially those prime weeks you mention, as owners convert to points. 

How are you addressing the problem with the Developer/Board/Management? Get the process in writing from them, get the rules as they interpret them in writing and then see if that is in conflict with your disclosure statement.  If it is you/the Association (a much stronger case but you have to get your owner Board members to buy in) can go to the State with a complaint.    They cannot alter the basic ownership rights without a vote of the owners and a super majority approving a change.


----------



## kdrew (Sep 1, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> Obviously this means you have to trust your management to keep the inventory for each group separated and that they give all owners within each group as fair shot at the reservations available. That almost precludes management by the developer/seller of the points as the temptation would be great to favor whatever they are selling now. You really need an independent management with heavy Board (assuming owner control of the Board) oversight.  It's not a good situation but it can, and should, be handled fairly.  How is the resort set up and who actually controls it?
> 
> No one should ever be forced to buy anything more simply to keep the rights they had initially.  A well run resort and Association will make sure that is the case.



You hit the nail on the head- independent management companies are a must.


----------



## kdrew (Sep 1, 2007)

*Glad I have a fixed week........*

I am very glad I have a deeded forever fixed week! I never liked floating weeks nor points. Now I have even more of a reason not to like them!

Great thread! 

Ken


----------



## Mel (Sep 1, 2007)

tombo said:


> There are only about 80 really prime weeks at the resort (8 weeks (21-28 ) times 10 2 bed units) available when your kids aren't in school. The only owners I talked to who are swapping to points have weeks 21-28 (a couple of 29-30 weeks) listed on their deeds. If you have week 27 (4th of July usually) listed on your deed, no one but you can reserve that week 11 or 12 months in advance if you swap to points, and that includes points owners. That turns the week from floating or points to virtually fixed with the points option. They have 100% guaranteed that they can reserve week 27 every year. A waste of $4000? They have stopped competing with owners like me for 4'th of july and now own the option to reserve week 27 every year 2 months before anyone else can. I booked 4th of july week last year as a floating owner.


A few questions, which might clear up what is truly happening.  You must understand that the salesmen will say whatever they have to in order to convince the "prospects" that they will have an advantage over others for that $4,000.  That doesn't necessarily make it true.  If you know one of the owners that has decided to convert, see if you can look over the contract.

One of you is likely to be upset once you do this, but I lay even odds that the person who is converting will be upset rather than you.

1) My first question - did you buy your week from Escapes! or as a resale?  If you bought from Escapes, was the week listed on the deed part of the negotiation, or did they just pick a week to assign?

2) Is the resort still selling?  Maybe in a new phase?  If so, is it possibe these owners will in fact be converting to deeds in the new phase?  Or are they perhaps buying units in the new resort - Escapes! to The Shores, which is also in Orange Beach.  I don't know what they would then plan on doing with the weeks are your resort, but they might use them as part of an exit program for new prospects

3)When you say there are only 10 units, I assume you mean on 10 2BR units, and all other units are smaller?

I would read the contract, to see what it REALLY says, you might find you're worrying over nothing.  If the contract does in fact seem iron-clad, then refer to the bylaws of your HOA, and see what those say.  Check your deed, and you can find the documents that restrict your ownership - these are what you need to read, because they ALSO restrict everybody else.  If the document compelling you to participate in the floating week program is referred to on your deed, it would need to be changed before these other owners are able to commit their deeded weeks to another program.  

This may require a call to the Baldwin County probabte office, where the records are held.  You should be able to find out it the documents have been amended, and if they have, you need to hold your HOA members accountable.  That type of change is generally not possible by a simple vote of the HOA - it must be ratified by a certain percentage of owners.


----------



## tombo (Sep 2, 2007)

*I am open for suggestions on how to proceed*

I complained on the phone to Escapes and they told me to complain in writing. I did it in writing stating that it wasn't right for the Developer (in a resort that has been sold out for years) to give advantages, not previously available to any owner, to owners who now were willing to pay an "extortion fee" and swap to points gaining a huge reservation advantage. I told them that for them to diminish the inventory available to owners and to reduce the value of owner's weeks through their new marketing strategy was wrong an possibly illegal. I told them that to allow the owner's who paid the "upgrade fee"  to book the week listed on their deed 2 months ahead of other owners should not be allowed since it never was before. Never since the resort was opened did having a floating week with unit A-22, week 27 (for example) listed on your deed  give you an advantage of reserving that week and unit before any other owner with a 1-52 float could have a chance to reserve it. Now for $4000 unit A-22 week 27 is that owner's (in the example) to reserve every year 2 months ahead of any floating 1-52 weeks owners and even 2 months ahead of the new points owners. I said you are turning floating weeks into virtually fixed weeks with a points option for a huge fee. What follows is the resort's response in it's entirety deleting the respondant's name:

The answer to your question is relatively simple. The inventory of weeks for Float owners and the inventory of weeks for ETC owners are completely separate pools, and therefore can have, and do have, different rules for usage. 

The weeks purchased by floating owners are available for reservation by floating owners. The weeks purchased, and those dedicated for sale, by and to points owners are available for reservations by points owners.

Accordingly, the fact that points owners have a home resort priority right for their deeded week does not prejudice floating owners in any way, since the points inventory is not available to float owners for use.

Sincerely............


----------



## tombo (Sep 2, 2007)

*Answera to your questions*

1) My first question - did you buy your week from Escapes! or as a resale? If you bought from Escapes, was the week listed on the deed part of the negotiation, or did they just pick a week to assign?

I bought it resale so I don't know if the week on the deed was used as a selling point or not. I know that it was irelevant with regards to what week you could reserve and when you could reserve it as there were no points and all that mattered was if you owned a 1-52 floating week.

2) Is the resort still selling? Maybe in a new phase? If so, is it possibe these owners will in fact be converting to deeds in the new phase? Or are they perhaps buying units in the new resort - Escapes! to The Shores, which is also in Orange Beach. I don't know what they would then plan on doing with the weeks are your resort, but they might use them as part of an exit program for new prospects.

The resort I am at is not selling (salesman told me that he had no inventory available) weeks or points, just converting weeks to points. They are not building now and there is no room to build a new phase in the future. Escapes to the Shores is a huge condo building currently under construction about a mile up the road and it will be an escapes points only resort from what I understand. They are not buying in the new resort because if that was the case they wouldn't have a deed at Escapes to Orange Beach which has a week and unit listed allowing them to reserve their exact unit and week 12 months in advance.

3)When you say there are only 10 units, I assume you mean on 10 2BR units, and all other units are smaller?

I am talking about 10 2 bed room units. I am not sure how many 1 bed room units because I never would trade for one of those as I bought a 2 bed room and like to bring my children. This resort has over 50% of the condos owned by full time owners (not timeshare) who are not related in any way to Escapes. They have their own HOA separate from the timeshare Escapes unit"s HOA. From what I understand Escapes purchased a block of condos from the condo developer and sold them as timeshares with floating weeks. This is why there are only 10 2 bed rooms in the float pool. Oh I am wrong, there were 10  total units w/ 50 weeks each in the float pool, but a new points pool has been created siphoning weeks from the original pool.


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Sounds like its time to raise the bar*

Tombo -

Based on the answer you received it is time to take your concerns to the State. Find out what agency has charge over timeshare sales/operation and file a complaint in whatever format they require.  

If, as the answer from the resort seems to imply, they are changing the process form a 100% float time to using the deeded week as the automatic deposit to the points pool you have a case. Time to go after them with a club they will respect - the State Agency is that club.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 2, 2007)

*Dump it is probably the correct answer....*

Or, just dump the timeshare and buy something better...why fight these guys.

Place ads to sell your unit and find a buyer and see if that price/loss is something you can live with and just move on.

I view timeshares as an investment and I regularly have losing investments and dump them.  Don't get emotional here - boil it down to just money and see if it really is worth all the hassle of ownership versus a loss on this one investment.


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 2, 2007)

*The owners have to speak up*



PerryM said:


> Or, just dump the timeshare and buy something better...why fight these guys.
> 
> Place ads to sell your unit and find a buyer and see if that price/loss is something you can live with and just move on.
> 
> I view timeshares as an investment and I regularly have losing investments and dump them.  Don't get emotional here - boil it down to just money and see if it really is worth all the hassle of ownership versus a loss on this one investment.



Perry - He sounds like an owner who bought the resort because he loves it & wants to use it.  Nothing wrong with the effort to protect what he bought and a few owners like him are needed to watch over every resort - especially the smaller ones.  I applaud his passion and think he should follow up with the regulators as it sounds like the management is playing far too loose with the rules to make money.


----------



## tombo (Sep 2, 2007)

*It is more than an investment*

I own timeshares at 12 different resorts, and all but this one are as Perry says for use, rent, or sale when I need to, be it for profit or loss. The rest aren't anything but peices of property. The reason that this one resort is special is because I have been vacationing in the Orange Beach area for over 2 decades with my parents, my brother, and with my children. When I only went on one vacation a year (before timeshares and with a different job) it was to the Orange Beach area due to it being only 3 and 1/2 hours drive from home, and because we know and love the area. 

Every other week I have purchased is in a place I would like to go every year in case I don't trade or rent them. All of my other weeks were purchased only when I felt that I was purchasing them cheap enough so that I could sell them in the future if need be, hopefully breaking even or even making a little profit.  Conversely,I paid way too much for the floating week at Escapes to Orange Beach because I wanted to stay in this area a week every year, and it is one of only 2 oceanfront resorts in the area. I bought it resale and paid a lot more than I have paid for any other resort knowing it wasn't to sell, trade, or rent. This resort was going to be used every year by my family and my children's children for many years to come. 

When Pahio sold to Wyndham, I sold 2 of my 3 weeks immediatelly (amazingly for a profit) and I have retained a 2 bed 2 bath ocean front unit for the time being. If it becomes hard to reserve the week I want due to the swap to Wyndham points as the sales reps proclaim, I will sell my last unit before I pay their extortion.  I like Pahio but I can rent one in the future if I want to go, and I don't go there every year due to airfare for 4 to 6 being so expensive.

If I can't get a week during the summer in the future when the kids are out of school it will diminish the value to me greatly. I have been reserving a week here at Escapes for my family, then my brother rents the same week somewhere at Orange Beach for his family, and we all eat out and visit during the week. His children are young and can only go during the 10 week window as they get out of school after Memorial Day and return to school the first week in August.

To make a long story short I hope there is a way that I can legally prevent them from running me off from the only resort that I was never planning on selling or renting. What State Dept. should I contact? The state Attorney General? I am afraid that I will not be able to win as I am sure that they have paid lawyers to figure out how to do this legally. I am also afraid that if I raise too much hell that they will put a note in the computer by my account telling the reservations operators to inform me that there are no weeks available in the future, even if there are some available, just to run me off. I could make it even worse on myself by fighting them. This is why I am here getting advice from the people who know the most about timesharing.

Thanks, Tom


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 2, 2007)

tombo said:


> What State Dept. should I contact? The state Attorney General? I am afraid that I will not be able to win as I am sure that they have paid lawyers to figure out how to do this legally. I am also afraid that if I raise too much hell that they will put a note in the computer by my account telling the reservations operators to inform me that there are no weeks available in the future, even if there are some available, just to run me off. I could make it even worse on myself by fighting them. This is why I am here getting advice from the people who know the most about timesharing.
> 
> Thanks, Tom



Tom - I'm sorry if you already said but I don't recall. What state is the resort located in?


----------



## tombo (Sep 2, 2007)

*Orange Beach, Alabama*

Very few timeshares in this state so probably not many people in government knowledgable about timeshares. The home of Escapes is Arkansas I think.

Thanks, Tom


----------



## timeos2 (Sep 2, 2007)

Here's the contact you want:

Alabama Real Estate Commission
1201 Carmichael Way
Montgomery, Alabama 36106-4350
FAX 334/270-9118 -
Telephone 334/242-5544

The state the resort is located in calls the shots no matter where the home of the developer may be. 

You may want to call and find out what process they use. 

Good luck.


----------



## tombo (Sep 2, 2007)

*Thanks for the advice*

Here's the contact you want:

Alabama Real Estate Commission
1201 Carmichael Way
Montgomery, Alabama 36106-4350
FAX 334/270-9118 -
Telephone 334/242-5544



I will call them Tuesday or Wednesday and see what they say. I feel sure the resort has their bases covered legally but it never hurts to try. 

Thanks for all your help, Tom


----------



## Jennie (Sep 3, 2007)

*"The developer is forcing you to pay additional money to maintain your timeshare's value for something the developer has spent no additional money on. If you don't you will lose value in your original purchase, as compared to other owners who pay the extortion fee."*

I'm not totally clear about which Points system is being discussed. There's mention of RCI Points, Wyndham/Fairfied, and BlueGreen.

I can speak with certainty only about RCI Points. An owner of a fixed-deeded week can convert his week to RCI Points. Had he not done so, he would presumably have used the fixed week himself, or rented it out, or deposited it with RCI or another exchange company. So it would not have been available for you to exchange into anyhow. 

I do see how the waters might become "murky" for owners of "floating" weeks unless a system is set up to oversee the fairness of the reservation process.

Much of what the salesperson told you is as false as what they say when trying to sell a deeded week. Those of us who have been long-term members of TUG have debated the pros and cons of the value (or lack therof) of RCI Points for several years now. Many think it is a great deal. Others feel it is a total rip-off. A lot depends upon a person's vacation style--"different strokes for different folks." 

Points were a tremendous deal for some people when the program was just getting started and there was an abundance of pfd weeks available. I have a friend who was able to get up to 6 prime weeks in Hawaii using the points she received for one week she had converted to RCI Points. This went on for a few years, then dried up. Now, she complains that RCI has raised the number of points needed to get even one prime week in Hawaii. A lot of experienced TUGgers are aware of this and have no interest in getting involved in converting.

Other very knowledgeable TUGgers, who believe that RCI Points provide better value for their needs, have been purchasing already converted weeks on Ebay for a fraction of the developer's price. I bought one such week for $700.. It gives me 58,500 points a year. It is at a resort where I already own two prime fixed-deeded weeks. I have been totally "underwhelmed" at the exchange choices being offered when I do my own on-line searches at RCI's web site, using RCI Points. My deeded weeks are pulling a much larger number, and better quality, of weeks. If this situation continues, I will let my RCI Points membership expire at the end of the 3 year period, and let the converted week revert back to being the original fixed week owned by the previous owner. 

So, there are many experienced owners who will never convert (or will "unconvert") based upon their own experience, or the info they receive about other people's experience. 

There are also a lot of owners who have no intention of converting to Points. Either they like coming to their resort every year. Or they have been very satisfied with the exchanges they have received. Or, even if they believed the lies the salesperson is telling them, they do no have the money to convert, or do not choose to spend the money to do so. 

Each year when I vacation at one of my favorite home resorts, I go on the Points presentation. (The fools never ask if I've been on the presentation before). I receive an $80. gift card, free lunch, and the pleasure of confronting the saleman about all the bulls... he is spewing out. 

During my 2 weeks at the resort, I watch the parade of potential victims returning from these presentations and have been able to give many of them enough TRUE information to decide to rescind their purchase. Or to stop worrying that they may have passed up the "deal of the century" by not buying into the program. It really upsets me to hear all of the "scare tactics" being used to make people (especially the elderly) believe that the fixed ts week they own "will soon become worthless." What a sleezy thing to do to people who are trying to have a nice vacation. I met a lovely couple who had not been able to sleep all night because they couldn't figure out if they should convert or not. They owned a prime week at this great resort and they use the week every year. I can't for the life of me understand what they thought they would gain by converting to Points. 

For all of the above reasons, I do not believe there will be a large number of people converting. The cost alone will deter most.


----------



## Aldo (Sep 3, 2007)

"Roger" said:


> I am having trouble following the complaint about Pahio.  First of all, they joined RCI Points at the outset.  So Wyndham is not introducing points to the Pahio system. They have been around since the inception of RCI Points. What Wyndham is doing is introducing Fairfield Points, but only at units that are bought or converted into that system. (As far as I can see, this _might_ have ramifications as to which units are available at Bali Hai, but little else.)
> 
> RCI Points owners do not get any jump on Weeks owners as to when they can reserve a unit at Pahio.
> 
> ...




Exactly.  Points are an OLD ripoff, hardly a new scam, like the OP seems to think it is.


----------



## tombo (Sep 3, 2007)

*I am wary of Wyndhan/Pahio too*

When Pahio offered RCI points there weren't many adavntages for the money, and not many people at Pahio seemed to convert. Also RCI didn't buy Pahio, just offered points there. Wyndham bought Pahio and has more control than RCI ever would have. The Wyndham points sales reps say that they are setting the new system up where the points owners will have first shot at the best weeks eventually limiting what will be available to  the floating week owners who don't convert.

Not as bad as Escapes Points turning a deeded week into a fixed week with the points option for money, but still a rip-off. At Pahio every unit was floating 1-52 for a like unit. Now every time they convince an owner to convert, they are reducing the availability to owners who don't. I am not that concerned about Pahio becoming hard to obtain good weeks because there are so many floating weeks available, but the sales reps make you feel as though if you don't convert you will soon not be able to get a good week. 

To add to my concerns of Wyndham getting more control over the Pahio resorts, the 2 Pahio Kauai Beach Villas weeks I sold to individuals were purchased by Wyndham by exercising their right of first refusal. People say that Wyndham will only have control over the new Bali Hai, but how many other weeks are they obtaining under ROFR? I sold one and the closing company said Wyndham was getting it. I sold the 2'nd one and ROFR again.

I purchased all 3 of my Pahio weeks resale and never heard anything from Pahio about ROFR even though I purchased them resale for less than I just sold 2 of them for. Pahio had sold the resort out, and was simply managing the resort and occasionally selling repo units as they should do. Wyndham is buying up every week in all of the Pahio resorts they can get their hands on to re-sell as points in all Pahio resorts.

Finally Pahio Kauai Beach Villas was starting construction on a badly needed new pool this summer or fall to be completed by early 2008 at the latest. I called  PBV recently to see when the pool was expected to be completed as I am staying there for a week in February and I was hoping it would be ready. I was informed that the old pool would still be available for use in Feb 2008. I said all permits and plans were approved, construction was supposed to be going on now, why the delay? They said that Wyndham had decided to wait. Pahio was getting KBV a new pool, Wyndham has stopped the project for the forseeable future, I assume to focus on their points sales and construction sales the new Pahio additions.

Whenever a resort starts making money converting weeks to points, they seem to forget about the people who already own there. All they care about is making that new money from the conversions. If I am wrong about Wyndham changing things for the worse for weeks owners, then I will be sorry that I sold 2 Pahio KBV weeks. I am pretty sure that will not be the case. Tom


----------



## "Roger" (Sep 4, 2007)

tombo said:


> When Pahio offered RCI points there weren't many adavntages for the money, and not many people at Pahio seemed to convert....


Just a couple of quick comments about this opening sentence.  I don't want to get into the speculation about Wyndham.

I did convert and it took me about two and a half years to recoup the cost of conversion because of the extra trades I made through points.  (Each of those years I took my better trade and attributed to what I would have gotten if I had traded via Weeks.  Then, I took a conservative estimate of what it would have cost to get a room for the trips I took with my leftover points.) I don't want to even think about how long it took me to recoup the cost of buying a unit originally.  (I bought before resales were well known.)

Secondly, I believe Pahio has one of the highest conversion rates into points.  (I heard a number, but can't verify it. What I can say is that Pahio resorts are always available for Points trades - much more so than other resorts.)


----------



## regatta333 (Sep 4, 2007)

tombo said:


> The Wyndham points sales reps say that they are setting the new system up where the points owners will have first shot at the best weeks eventually limiting what will be available to  the floating week owners who don't convert.



I think the sales rep was feeding you a line.  Wyndham points owners are able to reserve at their home resorts starting at 13 months before check-in.
They get a 3 month jump on Wyndham points owners who are deeded at other resorts.  Not sure how far in advance you are currently able to reserve at your resort, but I own 2 floating summer weeks at a former Equivest resort that was taken over by Wyndham several years ago.  Wyndham keeps sending me letters to try to get me to convert these weeks to points, but there is no incentive for me to do that if I want to continue to reserve my summer weeks at this resort.  Currently, I can reserve my weeks up to two years in advance, as long as my maintenance fees are paid, so there is no way the owners who convert to points will have an advantage over this.


----------



## johnmfaeth (Sep 4, 2007)

As I was reading this thread and contemplating the endless stream of lies and deceptions promulgated by TS sales types, it occurred to me that these "un-truths" focus in two areas - Greed and Fear...

When offering an initial purchase timeshare, they are often sold as a great deal which must be grabbed that day or lost - an appeal to Greed. I say greed becuase their hope is that one's desire for a "killer" deal will overwealm the human nature to check it out further or "sleep on it".

Once hooked, a continued money stream is obtained via Fear - "Convert to points or you will lose out".

While this has always been obvious, first time I am now able to sum up the behavior pattern with just two words.

This should have come to me sooner coming from a financial markets background, I must be a little slow, but think about it next time you are being "pitched".

And remember, when someone is pitching BS, you don't want to play catcher...


----------



## geekette (Sep 4, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> And remember, when someone is pitching BS, you don't want to play catcher...



Pah haa haaa!!!!   Wow, that is going to come in soooo useful at the office...


----------



## PerryM (Sep 4, 2007)

*Do Overs and hot feet...*



johnmfaeth said:


> As I was reading this thread and contemplating the endless stream of lies and deceptions promulgated by TS sales types, it occurred to me that these "un-truths" focus in two areas - Greed and Fear...
> 
> When offering an initial purchase timeshare, they are often sold as a great deal which must be grabbed that day or lost - an appeal to Greed. I say greed becuase their hope is that one's desire for a "killer" deal will overwealm the human nature to check it out further or "sleep on it".
> 
> ...



Anyone 18 years of age or older is responsible for the documents they sign.  

I can’t blame the developer in the slightest – I mean it.

All those that sign the sales contract and other documents have the right to rescind, anywhere from 3 to 10 days.  Now if there is some funny business with that right then I will impugn the salesrep and developer for this one behavior.

There are many folks who buy a product/service who get buyer’s remorse and don’t have the ability to back out.  This is NOT the case for the timeshare industry.

Do the salesreps tell white lies, full blown lies, ignorant responses – of course they do;  not all but a certain percentage, that we can only guess at, do this to Ma and Pa who just wanted that free gift.

Those “today only” incentives are state laws in some/many states.  The developers dragged a $10 bill thru their state legislature and enough politicians slithered out to pass the developer’s laws - that's how government works.


*The internet is available FREE in every library in the US I believe*.  If there isn’t one at the resort a free internet source is available to everyone in the US.  I can’t comment on foreign free sources to the internet.  I guess there are folks who don’t know how to turn on a computer and run Google, but I’ve got to believe they are in the very small minority now who buy timeshares. 

What I’m getting at is that after someone buys from the developer the new owners have every opportunity to type in “Timeshare” and in 4 hours will learn a horrific amount of information – and probably TUG.  If Ma and Pa are too lazy or hung-over or just too busy on vacation to check up on a $35,000 purchase then Ma and Pa deserve exactly what they bought.

Personal responsibility for one’s actions is a cornerstone to a free market – big brother can’t yell “Do Over” when Ma and Pa come crying and moaning that they now have buyer’s remorse.


There are plenty of ways that the new owner can learn a lot about timeshares before the right to rescind expires - let's hold the consumer's feet to the fire as much as we hold the salesreps feet to the fire.


----------



## johnmfaeth (Sep 5, 2007)

Come now Perry, even the free market type in you must get pleasure at abusing the timeshare salesmen at your resorts when they spout the proverbial "stuff".

Yes, I must admit, statistics demand that there be some truly honest timeshare sales types out there, gives me great hope that someday I may even meet one myself...


----------



## PerryM (Sep 5, 2007)

*Lots of blame to spread around...*



johnmfaeth said:


> Come now Perry, even the free market type in you must get pleasure at abusing the timeshare salesmen at your resorts when they spout the proverbial "stuff".
> 
> Yes, I must admit, statistics demand that there be some truly honest timeshare sales types out there, gives me great hope that someday I may even meet one myself...




On a scale of 1 to 10 of complexity, timeshares have got to be at least a 9 when it comes to consumer products/services.

There is no way that 90 or 120 minutes can cover even 50% of the salient topics that a new owner must understand to use the timeshare.  Throw in some fast talking, totally incorrect information, and stretching the truth our new timeshare owner has his/her eyes glaze over.

Will the new owner do the due diligence needed for such an expensive item - no.  Will the new owner know everything to make that important decision - no.  Basically the new owner makes the decision knowing full well they are not making a fully informed decision.  Should we blame the salesreps - no.

Granted the developer and salesrep frame all this into a fast pitched, even high pressure event but our owner is the grown up here that signs that sales contract.

All I'm saying is that both parties share the blame when there is a mismatch between the new buyer and the new timeshare.  It's too easy to blame the developer and let the owner off Scott free.


----------



## tombo (Sep 5, 2007)

*I assume con men are OK too.*

If your theory that the resort and salesmen can say anything and it is still totally the owner's fault if he buys is correct, then I assume you have no problem with con men ripping off the elderly, after all the elderly are full grown adults. 

When some con man sells someone some stock or land worth virtually nothing I assume it is acceptable to you because some grown person was trusting and not knowledgable about the sale. This elderly person has been around for decades and they should have known better. It is blaming the victims of crime rather than the criminal. You are giving a free pass to the crooked lying salesmen at the timeshares, and to the resorts that turn a blind eye to these tactics if not wholeheartedly endorsing their sales force's blatant lies and half truths. People should be told the truth and allowed to make their purchase decision with valid facts.

I hope no con man knocks on your door to sell you some stock, land, or to get you to invest in a real estate development when you are in your golden years and your mental faculties are failing. I have talked to several elderly owners who were scared into changing to points or "upgrading" at a high price they couldn't afford. They were saying I didn't want to do it but we paid tens of thousands when we bought it and we couldn't lose all of our investment by not paying for the points conversion. To believe that it is the buyer's fault is beyond embracing capitalism, it is saying that the resorts and their sales force can do or say anything misleading, misrepresenting, or tell outright lies, and if the buyer purchases based on this misinformation it is still their own fault.

I can speak for myself and many people here on TUG and say that my first timeshare purchase was one in which I got ripped off. The fact that I was new to timesharing didn't give a lying crook the right to lie to me and misrepresent the facts. Thank goodness my first sad experience was resale and I just purchased at a sorry resort that was a dump and wouldn't trade well as promised. I might have as easily gone to a presentation and gotten fleeced for $15,000 to $20,000. I owned weeks at 15 different resorts and educated myself by trial and error before I happened upon TUG. You seem to think that everyone should know to surf the web. Many people aren't computer literate, and many don't ever know that they could rescind the contract.

The blame should be placed upon those doing and saying anything to make the sale. As with all crimes we should not blame the victim. Taking advantage of people, whether it is legal or not, is not anything anyone should be proud of or condone.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 5, 2007)

*Second hand information works both ways...*



tombo said:


> If your theory that the resort and salesmen can say anything and it is still totally the owner's fault if he buys is correct, then I assume you have no problem with con men ripping off the elderly, after all the elderly are full grown adults.
> 
> When some con man sells someone some stock or land worth virtually nothing I assume it is acceptable to you because some grown person was trusting and not knowledgable about the sale. This elderly person has been around for decades and they should have known better. It is blaming the victims of crime rather than the criminal. You are giving a free pass to the crooked lying salesmen at the timeshares, and to the resorts that turn a blind eye to these tactics if not wholeheartedly endorsing their sales force's blatant lies and half truths. People should be told the truth and allowed to make their purchase decision with valid facts.
> 
> ...



Oh, come on now, that's not what I said.

Ma and Pa want that free gift and get talked into buying a timeshare.  We are not privy to the conversations and some here will assume all lies were told and some will assume the normal sales BS happened.

Ma and Pa have a grace period to get out of the transaction - if they let it expire and never take the time to do due diligence then, yes, I put the blame on them, they are grown ups.

Someone show me the last time a timeshare salesrep was hauled off to jail for lying to a customer?  I just don't remember such an event.  Surely if what many here believe to be correct this should be happening on a frequent basis.

It's just too easy to blame the salesrep as a slime ball and let Ma and Pa off the hook.

So is the salesrep guilty as charged?  Well, I've attended over 30 sales presentations in 6 years and the salesreps are guilty of passing on second hand information that is bad - and I've found a few lies but the vast majority of what the salesrep says has a ring of truth to it.

Blame the salesreps all you want but Ma and Pa are ultimately responsible for their actions.  If they feel they have been ripped off they can call the developer and the authorities and file charges.  But, like I said, where are these police photos of timeshares salesreps hauled off in handcuffs to jail?


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 6, 2007)

''Converting to points'' is nothing but a scam to try to make you buy what you already own all over again.  Such flim-flam ought to be vigorously stamped out through legislation or litigation.  In many states, it probably already is covered by existing consumer protection laws which are generally very broad.  I would at least try making written complaints to both the Real Estate Commission where the timeshare is located and to the Consumer Protection Division of the state Attorney General there.




tombo said:


> When developers sell every week there is in their inventory, they need to build a new resort to make more money. Instead they diminish the value of the weeks you own by making points more valuable. I own at Escapes to Orange beach and they are converting to points. When originally purchased, a week 3 at the home resort and a week 27 had the same chance at 4th of july by reserving 10 months in advance at the home resort. Now if you buy points you can reserve the week on your deed 12 months in advance virtually making it a fixed week with the points option. Now the points owners will be able to reserve all of the prime summer weeks before the owners who bought weeks originally can even call to reserve a week. How can they legally take away the value of your week by selling points after all the weeks there have been sold out? Easy because we are all suckers. If no one bought the points they would go away. Sadly that is not the case. Now my Pahio resorts in Kauai have been bought by Wyndham. I could reserve any week I wanted (1-52) easily up until now. Now I fully expect Wyndham to diminish the value of my floating week by offering points. No one would buy points if you owned a week and there was no advantage.Beyond the points conversion strategy many resorts now don't give equal value to points purchased resale as they do to points purchased from them or from an authorized reseller.Please tell the next resort that wants you to convert to points that you have fully paid for your week and that you refuse to pay for the right to vacation there a second time. If there are any lawyers here, file a class action suit against them for diminishing the value of timeshares they have sold by making weeks less valuable by selling points that were not even offered in the beginning. I will join your lawsuit gladly, Tom


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

*The correct answer is...*



Carolinian said:


> *''Converting to points'' is nothing but a scam *to try to make you buy what you already own all over again.  Such flim-flam ought to be vigorously stamped out through legislation or litigation.  In many states, it probably already is covered by existing consumer protection laws which are generally very broad.  I would at least try making written complaints to both the Real Estate Commission where the timeshare is located and to the Consumer Protection Division of the state Attorney General there.



Good grief; *just don’t convert is the correct answer*.  It’s 100% voluntary to convert and there are developers who just charge the $199 fee that RCI Points charges and nothing else.  If your developer/HOA wants thousands of dollars to convert then don’t convert.

I guess if your natural reaction is to sue everyone in sight over everything you don’t like then getting involved with a bunch of lawyers is the only way to solve every problem.

I’m guessing most folks would just go on and find an alternative or just not fight.  I don’t remember a single lawsuit over this and thus most folks still have some common sense left.


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 6, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Good grief; *just don’t convert is the correct answer*.  It’s 100% voluntary to convert and there are developers who just charge the $199 fee that RCI Points charges and nothing else.  If your developer/HOA wants thousands of dollars to convert then don’t convert.
> 
> I guess if your natural reaction is to sue everyone in sight over everything you don’t like then getting involved with a bunch of lawyers is the only way to solve every problem.
> 
> I’m guessing most folks would just go on and find an alternative or just not fight.  I don’t remember a single lawsuit over this and thus most folks still have some common sense left.



You don't seem to get the whole conversion to points scam.  The developer will manipulate the system to make those who refuse to pony up the extortion fee to ''convert'' second class members compared to those who have knuckled under.  This is the ripoff that needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.

Read the first post in this thread.  The problem is clearly spelled out there.

''Just not converting'' is burying your head in the sand while getting hosed by a greedy and dishonest developer.

Of course, I have made it a policy to never buy at a resort that is still under developer control, or at one where the HOA is under the thumb of a management company.  With an independent HOA board in control, you tend to avoid these problems.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

*The HOA has spoken...*



Carolinian said:


> You don't seem to get the whole conversion to points scam.  The developer will manipulate the system to make those who refuse to pony up the extortion fee to ''convert'' second class members compared to those who have knuckled under.  This is the ripoff that needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.
> 
> Read the first post in this thread.  The problem is clearly spelled out there.
> 
> ...



Sounds like the HOA has decided in this matter - join, leave, or find a "work-around".  I'm not sure, from reading the other posts, that what the OP believes is 100% correct.

But if the HOA makes rules we must follow them or sell our units - that's how it works.  Running to lawyers to address these problems is just a waste of time.

Just move on is still the correct answer.  This is just an asset that can be sold and those funds plowed back into something more palatable.  The OP is doing the right thing - asking if what he believes is correct and then must make a decision.

Remember we bought our timeshares to enjoy them and not get caught up in consumer activism.

HOA's and developers are constantly changing the rules at resorts, understand them and then make the appropriate decision and enjoy your vacation is always the correct answer.


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 6, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Sounds like the HOA has decided in this matter - join, leave, or find a "work-around".  I'm not sure, from reading the other posts, that what the OP believes is 100% correct.
> 
> But if the HOA makes rules we must follow them or sell our units - that's how it works.  Running to lawyers to address these problems is just a waste of time.
> 
> ...



Perry, you obliviously don't see the spirit of those who own to use.  Many have established friendships with others who own that week.  It is part of their life to go to their timeshare on their appointed week every year.  It is far more than ''just an asset''.  Some of the more outspoken folks here seem to forget that exchangers are a distinct minority at many resorts.

I guess you must be a different breed that many owners on the OBX, who have from time to time organized and ousted developers, management companies, and occaisionally an out-of-touch HOA board.  One concerned owners group, at Dunes South, even carried their fight all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating the developer at every turn.  That caused the same developer to wave a white flag at Ocean Villas II where another concerned owners group had hired a lawyer and was gearing up to take him to court.  Members who own to use are usually the backbone of such fights to make things right.

Wimping out make work for some, but for many of us it is just not our cup of tea.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> Perry, you obliviously don't see the spirit of those who own to use.  Many have established friendships with others who own that week.  It is part of their life to go to their timeshare on their appointed week every year.  It is far more than ''just an asset''.  Some of the more outspoken folks here seem to forget that exchangers are a distinct minority at many resorts.
> 
> I guess you must be a different breed that many owners on the OBX, who have from time to time organized and ousted developers, management companies, and occaisionally an out-of-touch HOA board.  One concerned owners group, at Dunes South, even carried their fight all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating the developer at every turn.  That caused the same developer to wave a white flag at Ocean Villas II where another concerned owners group had hired a lawyer and was gearing up to take him to court.  Members who own to use are usually the backbone of such fights to make things right.
> 
> Wimping out make work for some, but for many of us it is just not our cup of tea.




Like it or not we are bound by the documents we sign.  The HOA is the controlling entity over a timeshare and speaks for the owners.  If the HOA wants RCI Points then it will be done.

Those that don't want to follow the rules I guess chart another course and fight those rules for their own selfish motives since the HOA speaks for the owners.


----------



## e.bram (Sep 6, 2007)

I own inn a sold out TS where the management was take over by Fairfield and the HOA apparently has let the TS to become a part of the FF point system. Every visit I am invited to a "owners update"(yes, I like thew frrebie)and am offered the opportunity to conver to FF points. Initially it was done by requiring me to buy points in some FF TS in the boondocks. Since Wyndham has taken over they are offering direct conversion for about $3000.00. 
My problem is this, since the week in question is a floating week which contains blue and white weeks(some really bad) where before points I was competing with other TS owners now I compete with FF as well. Since FF is sitting at the reservation keyboard the can lock the best weeks the second the reservation becomes available leaving me with only the worst weeks. This is clearly on conflict of interest.
Right now this has not happened yet. But if it does I will stop paying the MF. If the HOA sues for the money I will use the conflict of interest of the managment company as a defense. The TS has no value and can be purchased on Ebay for a dollar, in some cases the closing costs paid by the seller.
However some of the floating weeks are not at that bad a time and I enjoy going. In fact I rented  a unit from SkyAuction for $200.00, wher my MF is $640.00.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

e.bram said:


> I own inn a sold out TS where the management was take over by Fairfield and the HOA apparently has let the TS to become a part of the FF point system. Every visit I am invited to a "owners update"(yes, I like thew frrebie)and am offered the opportunity to conver to FF points. Initially it was done by requiring me to buy points in some FF TS in the boondocks. Since Wyndham has taken over they are offering direct conversion for about $3000.00.
> My problem is this, since the week in question is a floating week which contains blue and white weeks(some really bad) where before points I was competing with other TS owners now I compete with FF as well. Since FF is sitting at the reservation keyboard the can lock the best weeks the second the reservation becomes available leaving me with only the worst weeks. This is clearly on conflict of interest.
> Right now this has not happened yet. But if it does I will stop paying the MF. If the HOA sues for the money I will use the conflict of interest of the managment company as a defense. The TS has no value and can be purchased on Ebay for a dollar, in some cases the closing costs paid by the seller.
> However some of the floating weeks are not at that bad a time and I enjoy going. In fact I rented  a unit from SkyAuction for $200.00, wher my MF is $640.00.




How is this any different than what the politicians did to us a few years ago - retroactively went back and added new taxes that some of us were forced to pay.

Rules are meant to be changed and often are.  The HOA, in this case, spoke for the owners and took Wyndham (FF) up on their offer.  Not everyone is going to be a winner.

Do the best you can and if necessary sell it.

Tomorrow there will be more changes - we need to reevaluate what we own and make decisions as an ongoing activity.

Don't count on politicians and Attorney Generals to do anything.  Timeshares are owned by affluent people (Who really needs a timeshare?) And have a very low priority.  The folks on a jury have no sympathy for folks like us who have so much money that we can afford a luxury like a timeshare.


----------



## Jed (Sep 6, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Tomorrow there will be more changes - we need to reevaluate what we own and make decisions as an ongoing activity.



All the more reason not to convert (speaking for myself).


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 6, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Like it or not we are bound by the documents we sign.  The HOA is the controlling entity over a timeshare and speaks for the owners.  If the HOA wants RCI Points then it will be done.
> 
> Those that don't want to follow the rules I guess chart another course and fight those rules for their own selfish motives since the HOA speaks for the owners.



An HOA board that is either developer controlled or under the thumb of a management company is NOT speaking for the owners, but for the entity that controls it.

An owner controlled timeshare HOA will not usually try to make such a sweeping change without owner input, probably by a vote at the annual meeting.  

If this is not currently an owner controlled HOA, it is time to start the revolution to make it so.  Owners (before my ownership) had organized and booted the developer out of control of two of the SA timeshares I have owned at and at three of the Outer Banks timeshares I have owned at.  

If the HOA IS owner controlled and they have so arrogantly abused their authority, it is time for a concerned owners group to run for the board to return it to a body that is responsive to owners.


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 6, 2007)

In most cases the Declaration of Covenants is very difficult to practically impossible to change, and probably hasn't been.  If these new ''rules'' are in conflict with that, and they well may be, the Declaration will govern if the matter gets to court.

unFairfield, now know as Wyndham, is an arrogant, overbearing, abusive bunch (see the Bluebeards Castle saga) and I would run, not walk, away from any resort they manage.




PerryM said:


> How is this any different than what the politicians did to us a few years ago - retroactively went back and added new taxes that some of us were forced to pay.
> 
> Rules are meant to be changed and often are.  The HOA, in this case, spoke for the owners and took Wyndham (FF) up on their offer.  Not everyone is going to be a winner.
> 
> ...


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> An HOA board that is either developer controlled or under the thumb of a management company is NOT speaking for the owners, but for the entity that controls it.
> 
> An owner controlled timeshare HOA will not usually try to make such a sweeping change without owner input, probably by a vote at the annual meeting.
> 
> ...



If the developer has inventory they are entitled to voting rights just like other owners.  Although the developer may not technically be an owner they pay MFs and deposit units into exchange companies and rent units to prospective buyers.

There is no reason under the sun to not let them vote and guide the resort - that would be unfair.


----------



## e.bram (Sep 6, 2007)

Perry:
But if the mangement company control of the HOA is a result of their ownership then they are barred form acting in a way that favors their position at the expense of the other owners is clearly a conflict of interest and illegal.
As to politicians some do the same thing but they do get caught. Look at the hedline for NEW Jersey today.
Wyndham and others will have to pay the piper one day. The best defense against the managment is to own a fixed week where the ability to make reservations ahead of everyone else does not help them. With points and floating weeks you have not protection as of now.


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

*Hating your toaster is much the same...*



e.bram said:


> Perry:
> But if the mangement company control of the HOA is a result of their ownership then they are barred form acting in a way that favors their position at the expense of the other owners is clearly a conflict of interest and illegal.
> As to politicians some do the same thing but they do get caught. Look at the hedline for NEW Jersey today.
> Wyndham and others will have to pay the piper one day. The best defense against the managment is to own a fixed week where the ability to make reservations ahead of everyone else does not help them. With points and floating weeks you have not protection as of now.



The only thing you can do to a corporation is to hate it.

Anything else, like taxes, court judgements, or fines, are simply passed on the consumer to be paid.  Legal actions against corporate officers do impact those folks but never touch the corporation.

So hate the corporations all you want, however they have all the feelings of a toaster when it burns your bagel.

This is why I have suspicions about intelligent folks hell bent on hurting a corporation (Hello RCI) - they know there is nothing there to hurt/insult and that money is more than likely the reason for all the fuss.


----------



## e.bram (Sep 6, 2007)

Perry: 
You are wrong!
Take a course in paralegal in a community college or read a book on legal procedure. In a small case the corp still has to higher a lawyer(big bucks for them). You can represent yourself(free). They will usually settle w/o going to court and in court you have good shot too. The judges usually side with the consumer against a business.


----------



## tombo (Sep 6, 2007)

Perry espouses all of the values that makes Wyndham, Escapes, and all of the other rip-off timeshare corporations powerful. If they mistreat you, put up with it or just walk away. If they diminish the value of a week in a resort in which you are an owner, it is just a part of life, live with it or sell. If a big corporation trounces on something you own to make a larger corporate profit, there is nothing you can do, so surrender and sulk off into the sunset.

America was built on the backs of fighters. We have laws and rights which the courts enforce to protect the individual from corporate greed. How many salesman have been arrested? I don't know but a couple of good 60 Minutes or 20/20 investigations would probably send some to jail. We have all been to presentations where we know we are being lied to. I know more about timeshares than the far majority of timeshare salesmen. I am courteous, try not to laugh or cry bull____ at their outright lies, then I leave with my gift.  The only way they go to jail is if someone record's the lies in a presentation or gets some hard proof and then PROSECUTES THEM! You have to buy and be damaged to prosecute. Those of us who know they are lying don't buy, those who don't know better buy and it is too late to prosecute because later it is their word against the resort's word. If people start recording and prosecuting we could force the developers to stop the deceptive practices by the only thing they care about, by getting into their wallets. If it starts costing them money they will change their tactics.

If you instead decide to follow Perry's advice then you don't fight no matter what happens to you. If they want to re-zone your neighborhood, let them. If your company refuses to pay you for overtime or they won't compensate you as they agreed to pay you when you were hired you must live with it or quit. If your HOA decides to side with points in an alliance which diminishes the value of what you own, too bad for you, sell.

I might lose the fight, but I will fight it. It is not in me to simply say they are screwing me but it isn't worth fighting. Reality is that things at your resort won't ever change unless the owners allow the HOA or Developer to change them. In the future I will only buy fixed weeks and I will avoid resorts which have developers in the HOA. But now I will fight to save the value in what I own. It is far better to fight and lose than to look in the mirror and see a quitter looking back at you!


----------



## PerryM (Sep 6, 2007)

*Show me the beef!*



tombo said:


> Perry espouses all of the values that makes Wyndham, Escapes, and all of the other rip-off timeshare corporations powerful. If they mistreat you, put up with it or just walk away. If they diminish the value of a week in a resort in which you are an owner, it is just a part of life, live with it or sell. If a big corporation trounces on something you own to make a larger corporate profit, there is nothing you can do, so surrender and sulk off into the sunset.
> 
> America was built on the backs of fighters. We have laws and rights which the courts enforce to protect the individual from corporate greed. How many salesman have been arrested? I don't know but a couple of good 60 Minutes or 20/20 investigations would probably send some to jail. We have all been to presentations where we know we are being lied to. I know more about timeshares than the far majority of timeshare salesmen. I am courteous, try not to laugh or cry bull____ at their outright lies, then I leave with my gift.  The only way they go to jail is if someone record's the lies in a presentation or gets some hard proof and then PROSECUTES THEM! You have to buy and be damaged to prosecute. Those of us who know they are lying don't buy, those who don't know better buy and it is too late to prosecute because later it is their word against the resort's word. If people start recording and prosecuting we could force the developers to stop the deceptive practices by the only thing they care about, by getting into their wallets. If it starts costing them money they will change their tactics.
> 
> ...




Ok, let’s all admit it there are NO examples of even ONE timeshare salesrep being prosecuted for lying to a consumer.  Can we all agree on this.  It’s a big country and maybe there is some guy somewhere but I’ve never come across a single case in 8 years of timeshare ownership.

Since we have no evidence that this is happening we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the folks who do this day in and day out all year long – the salesreps.  I know, they are an easy target for “Bigfoot sightings” of lies and deceptions but they are either super smart and avoid being caught or much of the problem is that timeshares are complex to understand and the information a salesrep used 3 months ago may be stale and inaccurate.  This they are guilty of.

Add to that most timeshare salesreps don’t own a timeshare and we have the salesrep going on second hand information and experiences passed around the office.  This they are guilty of too.

But to then say we must now call upon lawyers to save us and courts that get over turned all the time seems to me to be an even worse choice.   (As an aside - just how accurate are the courts?  I've never seen a figure but overall my guess is 75% accuracy at best)

Timeshares have been around 40+ years and the 60 minute type of reporters have had ample time to set their sights on the timeshare industry but haven’t probably says that they don’t get inundated with Ma and Pa crying to help them.

There is no excuse anymore for Ma and Pa to get stung; not with Google and many timeshare chat rooms.  It’s time Ma and Pa acted like adults and assume personal responsibility for any mess they are in.

I am NOT saying that the timeshare salesreps are 100% free from lying, deceit, and scams, I am saying that Ma and Pa now have the tools to help them do due diligence and rescind that sales contract.  If Ma and Pa are too lazy, too busy, or too ignorant to do a little research they will accept that sales contract and be bound by it.

TUG is doing the work that the Drive By Media used to do – we don’t need a 60 minute hit piece against the timeshare industry to become a resource for Ma and Pa.


Just as there are no verdicts against RCI nor prosecutors pursuing them, this topic of Ma and Pa being snookered by the salesreps is completely void of any evidence that has made it into a court room.  It has as much validity as alligators in the sewer eating people.

I have no doubt folks can come up with all kinds of stories of being lied to, however they never felt it important enough to then call the authorities - so what should we do?

The real problem here is that Ma and Pa never did due diligence in the first place and now they want a bail out program.  This sounds very familiar.

Conclusion:
Don't count on big brother bailing you out - do the due diligence in the first place.


----------



## e.bram (Sep 6, 2007)

tombo:
AMEN


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 7, 2007)

PerryM said:


> If the developer has inventory they are entitled to voting rights just like other owners.  Although the developer may not technically be an owner they pay MFs and deposit units into exchange companies and rent units to prospective buyers.
> 
> There is no reason under the sun to not let them vote and guide the resort - that would be unfair.



Too many developers try to hang on long after their ownership is in the minority.  Powhattan Plantation is one sad example of that.  On the OBX, two developers tried to overstay their welcome.  First Flight Builders was booted out of control of the four resorts they built after an owners group at one of their resorts cleaned their clock at the state Supreme Court and two others were gearing up for legal action.  At all of their resorts they were compelled to deed over upsold weeks and in one case to pay $100,000 cash.  The other, Barrier Island Station, continues to get away with controlling HOA's at two long sold out resorts.

On the OBX, it is only developer controlled HOA's that have embraced points, not the owner-controlled HOA's.  IMHO, the reason is obvious.  Owners are not clamouring for points; developers are!


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 7, 2007)

PerryM said:


> The only thing you can do to a corporation is to hate it.
> 
> Anything else, like taxes, court judgements, or fines, are simply passed on the consumer to be paid.  Legal actions against corporate officers do impact those folks but never touch the corporation.
> 
> ...



You can force a corporation to do right.  The method is called injunctive relief.  Then the corporate officers can decide if they prefer to do what the court tells them to do or whether they would rather go to jail for contempt.


----------



## Carolinian (Sep 7, 2007)

*Perry's straw man*

Set up a straw man, knock it down . . . This seems to be a common technique of those who regularly defend the big boys in the timeshare industry.

Of course, there is not going to be a timeshare salesman prosecuted for lying to a buyer.  First, any such action is likely to be in civil court, not criminal court, and secondly, anyone in their right mind would not go after the agent, the salesman, but the principle with deep pockets, the developer.

Are developers and management companies called to account in our legal system when they do wrong? Absolutely!

In my own area, on the Outer Banks there are plenty of examples.  Dunes South concerned owners took their developer, First Flight Builders, through the courts, all the way to the state Supreme Court, beating them at every turn and gained control of the resort, and HOA ownership of all unsold developer weeks.  First Flight Builders then settled with another concerned owners group at Ocean Villas II which had hired a lawyer and was preparing their own case, turning over control of the resort, ownership of all unsold developer weeks, and $100,000 cash.  First Flight then also settled with the concerned owners group at Ocean Villas I which had organized and raised money and was at the stage of consulting with lawyers, turning over control of the resort and ownership of all unsold developer weeks.  They also waved a white flag at Hatteras High but I have heard two versions of the details there.  At Bodie Island Beach Club, a concerned owners group filed a complaint with the state Real Estate Commission against the Subsequent Developer (who had bought out the interests of the original developer), which led, after an extensive investigation by the Commission, to the owners gaining control of the resort and some cash and the subsequent developer losing his real estate license.  More recently, at Sea Ranch II, litigation in the courts, led to a consent order in which the management company, VRI, was compelled to relinquish their management contract.


----------

