# SVO Management



## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi,

I wanted to start a new thread to discuss past and current experiences with SVO management. These can be issues, or good experiences. Given what is being discussed in other threads at the top of the board, in fairness, I wanted to start this thread to allow all readers here to present fairly their perspective, with the understanding that SVO very very likely reads each of these.  

My personal objective is to have a record here on what SVO Tug users feel about the decisions and direction SVO management has taken over the past number of years. How it has affected each of you, positively or negatively. Do you feel they care about you as a customer? 

Moderator, please don't remove this posting, or move it to the poll section. 

A couple of key things:
1. Please be honest.
2. Please give the rough time line for the experience. (ie, they change the program on X date and this was the outcome)
3. This isn't a discussion about the quality of SVO's properties, or the benefits of any elite or other program. It could be a log which SVO management can read, and know what the perspective in the community is about how they run their program. Granted, they might not care, but, at least it is something they can look at.

Thank you


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## Troopers (Sep 29, 2008)

Starwood does read this forum.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*I know and have emailed William a number of times..*

Thanks for your response.



R Chen said:


> Starwood does read this forum.


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 29, 2008)

i have owned starwood timeshare since 2001 and i am one of the few that are completely happy.

everything they promised me came true. most of the changes they made i understand. i may mot be happy with the changes but i understand why they had to do it.

the major one is the upgrade to a larger villa being confirmed months ahead of time. it did state based upon availability. but when you get people who paid a lot of money for their timeshares that phrase  based upon availability did not pertain to them. they felt they were ENTITILED  to the upgrades. thus starwood had many irate owners at check-in. so they took the perk away because you had a lot of people behaving badly.

if they did not have the entitlement issue and it probably would not be gone.
so starwood took it away from all 4 and 5 stars. so the upgrade expectation was off the table.
did i like it --no. do i understand why it is gone --yes.

after all these years i am still a very happy owner. 

they take away my platinum for life and i would definitely not be a happy camper.

barbra


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Thank you for your feedback*

To summarize:

At some point, Starwood changed the program to not allow (who) to upgrade to larger villa, which was supposed to be based on availability.

Also, you are happy with the program and SVO management.

Thank you,





pointsjunkie said:


> i have owned starwood timeshare since 2001 and i am one of the few that are completely happy.
> 
> everything they promised me came true. most of the changes they made i understand. i may mot be happy with the changes but i understand why they had to do it.
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> To summarize:
> 
> At some point, Starwood changed the program to not allow (who) to upgrade to larger villa, which was supposed to be based on availability.



When the Elite program was first announced, 5 Star Elite members were supposed to get automatic upgrades.  However, there weren't enough upgrades to go around and many Elite members were very irate at check-in when they didn't get an upgrade - I personally saw this several times at check-in myself.


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## Cathyb (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you for this subject!  l. We bought Westin Mission Hills when the first shovel hit the ground.  There was no mention (nor was it even in print anywhere) about Mandatory and Voluntary ownerships and its negative  effects when your kids inherit the property and need to sell it.  The end result was immediate decrease in value. 
2.  Apparently the Board of Directors do NOT want owners at their annual meetings.  This is contiuously proven by the date an owner receives the Notice of when the meeting is (two weeks before).  The document is dated 6 weeks before but apparently sits somewhere for a month.  They refuse to set the next year's meeting date at the present meeting (like Marriott does)so you can plan around it.
3.  They are constantly giving and taking back benefits, breaking promises and just plain poor customer service.


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## LisaRex (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm unhappy with their lack of communication.  They took Aruba off the table without notifying the owners, they changed the 5* elite program without notice.  Lack of communication makes them look sneaky and untrustworthy.

I'm unhappy that knowingly sold OV villas at both north and south as OF.  Sorry, but if you're facing another building or if you have a band of trees directly in front of your villa, even if it's the only thing between you and the ocean, that's not ocean front.  That's ocean view or even garden view.  

I'm unhappy that they keep raising prices even as the economy is faltering.  It makes them seem out of touch with reality.

I'm unhappy that they've written into their contract that they get to book all the profits from unbooked villas without contributing anything to the HOAs which have to maintain the place.  Given that, I'm glad when I see that the place is half full because it means fewer bedspreads we schleps have to replace come January. 

I'm unhappy that they've quit developing new properties.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Cathy,*

Thank YOU for taking the time to write these things. I am compiling a list to send to Starwood in a formal letter. Your 3 are there for sure. 

I am one of the folks affected by their change in 5* without warning. Had just bought one, and about to close on the second. I feel really cheated. 
I don;t want to get off topic here as there is a separate thread to discuss that one. But, I will add it here to the list.



Cathyb said:


> Thank you for this subject!  l. We bought Westin Mission Hills when the first shovel hit the ground.  There was no mention (nor was it even in print anywhere) about Mandatory and Voluntary ownerships and its negative  effects when your kids inherit the property and need to sell it.  The end result was immediate decrease in value.
> 2.  Apparently the Board of Directors do NOT want owners at their annual meetings.  This is contiuously proven by the date an owner receives the Notice of when the meeting is (two weeks before).  The document is dated 6 weeks before but apparently sits somewhere for a month.  They refuse to set the next year's meeting date at the present meeting (like Marriott does)so you can plan around it.
> 3.  They are constantly giving and taking back benefits, breaking promises and just plain poor customer service.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*LisaRex,*

Thanks to you too. I have purchased Ka'anapali as well.. but not ocean front. Did you buy from the developer directly in Maui, or from central sales? Just wondering who 'cheated' you.




LisaRex said:


> I'm unhappy with their lack of communication.  They took Aruba off the table without notifying the owners, they changed the 5* elite program without notice.  Lack of communication makes them look sneaky and untrustworthy.
> 
> I'm unhappy that knowingly sold OV villas at both north and south as OF.  Sorry, but if you're facing another building or if you have a band of trees directly in front of your villa, even if it's the only thing between you and the ocean, that's not ocean front.  That's ocean view or even garden view.
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Ok.. what is the difference between Manditory and Voluntary ownerships?*

This has never been mentioned to me in any literature or by the sales agent.



Cathyb said:


> Thank you for this subject!  l. We bought Westin Mission Hills when the first shovel hit the ground.  There was no mention (nor was it even in print anywhere) about Mandatory and Voluntary ownerships and its negative  effects when your kids inherit the property and need to sell it.  The end result was immediate decrease in value.
> 2.  Apparently the Board of Directors do NOT want owners at their annual meetings.  This is contiuously proven by the date an owner receives the Notice of when the meeting is (two weeks before).  The document is dated 6 weeks before but apparently sits somewhere for a month.  They refuse to set the next year's meeting date at the present meeting (like Marriott does)so you can plan around it.
> 3.  They are constantly giving and taking back benefits, breaking promises and just plain poor customer service.


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2008)

Not to speak for Lisa, but what she is talking about is the way the rooms were categorized at WKORVN.  The ocean front units at WKORV are all true OF, but some of the units categorized OF at WKORVN barely have a glimpse of the ocean, and the buyers were charged a high premium for an OF view.  So it wouldn't matter who you bought from, or even if you bought resale, the way some of the OF units are categorized is just plain wrong.

For an explanation of Mandatory and Voluntary, see the Starwood FAQ at the top of the page.


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> 3. This isn't a discussion about the quality of SVO's properties, or the benefits of any elite or other program.



Since the Elite program is an integral part of Starwood timeshare ownership, I don't feel there is any way to exclude it from this thread and accurately portray the concerns of Starwood owners.

Also - I applaud   you for wanting to get involved in these issues, but the rest of us have been fighting the good fight for some time, and all of these issues have been discussed in depth in the past, so it's not exactly news to Starwood.  They simply choose to ignore the concerns of informed owners on TUG, because they are still fooling the other 95%.


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## LisaRex (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> Thanks to you too. I have purchased Ka'anapali as well.. but not ocean front. Did you buy from the developer directly in Maui, or from central sales? Just wondering who 'cheated' you.




I bought an OF unit on the resale market. Starwood cheated me because they didn't code the villas properly.  My deeded unit is 5515/16, which is depicted on the map here (See bldg 5, unit 15/16).  Would you consider this ocean front?

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77373

Happily, when I traveled in July, I was assigned the 6th floor of building 5, villas 03/04.  However, another poster was assigned 15/16 and told she had no recourse because it was in her view class of OF.  

The view coding at the south property is better, however they still code the lower floors as OF even when the line of trees impede the view.  Since I bought OF because I wanted the best view, this does not make me happy.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*No that looks like 'Pool front'*

I think I would be upset with that too. I also bought resale, but, didn't buy ocean front. 



LisaRex said:


> I bought an OF unit on the resale market. Starwood cheated me because they didn't code the villas properly.  My deeded unit is 5515/16, which is depicted on the map here (See bldg 5, unit 15/16).  Would you consider this ocean front?
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77373
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Hi Denise..*

I was just trying to be fair here, as best I can to get an objective perspective. The drop in value of the Elite program wasn't intended to be eliminated from discussion, just didn't want this thread to stray to discussions that weren't SVO management related.. Thanks for your perspective.

Is this true? Is everyone here so beat down by Starwood that they can't muster up enough strenght to let me know they 'are mad as hell and don't want to take it any more?'. Or perhaps everyone is really happy with SVO? Is that the case? If so, I can't really take any issue to management. 

I am going to try to take up the cause ...



DeniseM said:


> Since the Elite program is an integral part of Starwood timeshare ownership, I don't feel there is any way to exclude it from this thread and accurately portray the concerns of Starwood owners.
> 
> Also - I applaud   you for wanting to get involved in these issues, but the rest of us have been fighting the good fight for some time, and all of these issues have been discussed in depth in the past, so it's not exactly news to Starwood.  They simply choose to ignore the concerns of informed owners on TUG, because they are still fooling the other 95%.


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I
> Is this true? Is everyone here so beat down by Starwood that they can't muster up enough strenght to let me know they 'are mad as hell and don't want to take it any more?'. Or perhaps everyone is really happy with SVO? Is that the case? If so, I can't really take any issue to management.



Neither one - we have been fighting them for years (6 in my case.)  We win a few battles, but we seem to be losing the war - which changes battle fronts without warning.   Several Tuggers have sent letters, organized owners to deal with a particular issue (WSJ), coordinated letter writing campaigns, made phone calls, had personal meetings, and pinned Starwood down over implementation of their own rules, but the bottom line is that Starwood's main interest is selling more timeshares to fresh meat.  They have our money, and they aren't all that interested in what we have to say anymore.  

I appreciate your fresh enthusiasm - welcome to the war!


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Wow.. this is discouraging.. but at least...*

I found out before I became 'old meat'. I guess I am no longer fresh either. Perhaps stale meat. 

Seems that there is quite a bit of bitterness here.. but, I guess there is nothing you can do about it. You all purchased wanting to be in a great program, and unfortunately once you buy, you are essentially screwed if you bought from an vendor who really doesn't care, nor is there really any incentive.. or more importantly, recourse should you have a complaint. 

Does this capture your feelings?



DeniseM said:


> Neither one - we have been fighting them for years (6 in my case.)  We win a few battles, but we seem to be losing the war - which changes battle fronts without warning.   Several Tuggers have sent letters, organized owners to deal with a particular issue (WSJ), coordinated letter writing campaigns, made phone calls, had personal meetings, and pinned Starwood down over implementation of their own rules, but the bottom line is that Starwood's main interest is selling more timeshares to fresh meat.  They have our money, and they aren't all that interested in what we have to say anymore.
> 
> I appreciate your fresh enthusiasm - welcome to the war!


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm not bitter - maybe just a wee bit jaded.  _Over all_, timesharing is working very well for us.  After we bought our WKORV week from the developer, I bought 5 more weeks on ebay for pennies on the dollar, and we really enjoy timesharing.  We don't owe any money, and the rental weeks are paying all our MF's plus a bit in the pocket, so we are timesharing without any ongoing cost at this point.   That's hard to beat!    Frankly, we've kind of given up on the WKORV (we just rent it now) so as moderator, I mainly advocate for other owners at this point.  My SDO week isn't in the SVN, so it's out of Starwood's clutches, but that does put me in the battle for freedom of depositing!

This board has an awfully nice group of owners (and they are so smart!) so I really enjoy talking about timesharing - good or bad.


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## Troopers (Sep 29, 2008)

I'll chime in.

I'll preface my opinions by stating that I'm new to timesharing and my first TS purchase was at WKORV resale two years ago.  I was fortunate that I discovered TUG prior to my purchase (thanks TUG!).  I abide by the "buy where you want to go" philosophy.  I have no plans to trade, exchange or rent.  And I have no plans to achieve elite status (however, I was interested in acquiring a second week at WKORV so that we be able to string 2 weeks).

IMHO, Starwood has been great.  My interaction with Starwood has been limited to only the 800 reservation folks and the local staff at WKORV.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 30, 2008)

I am not bitter.

My worries are accountability of the rising MFs, and associated maintenance (or lack of) - otherwise, I am eyes wide open.

Buy Resale. Enjoy.


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## SDKath (Sep 30, 2008)

I wasn't bitter - until this last week.   

K


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 30, 2008)

I would be pissed too...

I take it you didn't get in writing (see the negma clause) from SVO that they would give you 5* for your purchases/requals?

'Getting it in writing' should be in our stickies if it isn't already.


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## Cathyb (Sep 30, 2008)

SWcanadian:  You put it in words exactly how a lot of us feel.  Their time is coming -- I know I never would buy another SW.  I am a happy owner of 6 other timeshare companies.


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## Ken555 (Sep 30, 2008)

Great thread - good to see a summary of our issues with SVN. 

Changes in elite status over the last couple of years have squashed my plans for buying more SVN properties with intent to requalify and purchase direct. I sympathize with all of you who are in the process of gaining 5* only to see SVN pull the rug out from under your feet. And, I sympathize with those who are 5* and see their benefits slowly erode over time.

SVN's lack of timely and accurate communication with its members is appalling. Their discourtesy to existing owners by changing policies without notice or discussion is an insult to all of us who have supported and advocated their program. While they may have the right to make unilateral changes, doing so in the manner in which they have will only create discontent among the very people who are their best natural supporters (and source of additional sales). 

I have a number of issues with SVN, some less important than others (several of these have already been posted in this thread):

1. Reservations are more difficult and costly than necessary by not having a real-time online reservation system (preferably with ability to request room/building location, etc). 

2. Lack of transparent decisions which affect owners. A prime example of this is the special assessment confusion at Vistana Resort. Difficulty in obtaining Board minutes and decisions in a timely manner, and in ways other than via marketing or financial disclosures. Inherent in this is the obvious top-heavy makeup of the HOA Board's by SVN personnel, even though they may officially only represent themselves. It would be nice and appropriate for Board meetings to be recorded and posted on MSC for us to watch and comment (but they don't want our involvement, so...).

3. "Owner's Updates" are anything but. Would be nice to have a real "Owner's Update" when visiting a resort - perhaps they should simply offer them in a group session strictly related to program updates and new resort info, etc. Then again, they don't want owner's talking in groups, and they see these as prime sales opportunities. I don't want to waste anyone's time, but their sales staff often doesn't know more than I about the status of the program and it ends up wasting my time. If they insist on continuing this method of updates/sales, the least they should do is train their staff better. Of course, accuracy in sales is contrary to common t/s sales tactics.

4. Relationship with SVN and SPG seems inequitable. Not just the value of the conversion of your developer week into SPG points, but that SPG members can now exchange points to reserve a room at SVN properties and the resort HOA does not receive any funds for those rentals. This includes paid rentals at the resort as well. I am amazed that this is true, and if the HOA Board was truly independent this policy would never stand. Of course, given that it's available, I will certainly try to take advantage of it...

I may continue to buy and recommend SVN properties as a great way to travel, but fully with the qualification to buy resale and with realistic expectations. I believe my value out of my resale purchases have been fantastic, both direct with SVN and via II. I don't personally feel as burned as others here, since I haven't bought direct (well, I did once, but was able to rescind because SVN couldn't get the property built even over a year after they started sales). At this point, I see no advantage in buying direct under almost any circumstances.

My goal for the coming months is to learn more about the Marriott, Hyatt, and Hilton programs. I may rent at one next year to test the waters elsewhere again (it's been a few years since I've stayed at a Marriott). I expect my next purchase will not be Starwood.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*In a US where the Economy is crumbling...*

... don't you find it remarkable that SVO doesn't care more then ever about customer service.

One of my first bosses told me something which stuck with me all this time. "Treat everyone from the secretary (yes, long ago), janitor through to the executives and their assistants with the same respect and integrity. You never know when one of them moves to a different place where they can influence your life. " After a while of conciously trying, it comes naturally to you in the course of people that you touch day to day. Word of mouth is such a powerful thing, even if you don't believe in Karma. (I am such a strong believer in Karma.. but, don't need to preach to those here..). 

The words 'Their time is coming..' is such a powerful statement, and one which should be full of worry to those reading this from SVO. One unhappy customer can cause more business loss then what you gain from 100 happy customers. I know this for a fact. 

So, how many unhappy people are there here SVO? 



Cathyb said:


> SWcanadian:  You put it in words exactly how a lot of us feel.  Their time is coming -- I know I never would buy another SW.  I am a happy owner of 6 other timeshare companies.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*Great info Ken555!*

tHANKS FOR THIS!



Ken555 said:


> Great thread - good to see a summary of our issues with SVN.
> 
> Changes in elite status over the last couple of years have squashed my plans for buying more SVN properties with intent to requalify and purchase direct. I sympathize with all of you who are in the process of gaining 5* only to see SVN pull the rug out from under your feet. And, I sympathize with those who are 5* and see their benefits slowly erode over time.
> 
> ...


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## calgarygary (Sep 30, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> ... *don't you find it remarkable that SVO doesn't care more then ever about customer service.*
> 
> One of my first bosses told me something which stuck with me all this time. "Treat everyone from the secretary (yes, long ago), janitor through to the executives and their assistants with the same respect and integrity. You never know when one of them moves to a different place where they can influence your life. " After a while of conciously trying, it comes naturally to you in the course of people that you touch day to day. Word of mouth is such a powerful thing, even if you don't believe in Karma. (I am such a strong believer in Karma.. but, don't need to preach to those here..).
> 
> ...



Starwood made a decision just over a year ago that customer service wasn't a priority.  I found it incredible at the time when they hired a CEO who had 0 experience in the hospitality industry but managed to control costs for Coors & Nike.  Frankly, I believe that the board/shareholders are reaping what they have sowed with stock currently trading at $28 - if I recall, there was a thread at the start of the year that expressed concern when Starwood had dropped from $75 to $43 during 2007.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*Hey Calgary Gary!*

Fellow Canadian eh?

Interesting info.... though, as some have pointed out, the SVO side seems to have a lot more issues then the Hotel side. I assume the CEO is in charge of both sides? 

This brings an interesting thought. At this price, is Starwood at target for acquisition? Are they 'shoring' up some things in anticipation of being bought?





calgarygary said:


> Starwood made a decision just over a year ago that customer service wasn't a priority.  I found it incredible at the time when they hired a CEO who had 0 experience in the hospitality industry but managed to control costs for Coors & Nike.  Frankly, I believe that the board/shareholders are reaping what they have sowed with stock currently trading at $28 - if I recall, there was a thread at the start of the year that expressed concern when Starwood had dropped from $75 to $43 during 2007.


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## LisaRex (Sep 30, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> This brings an interesting thought. At this price, is Starwood at target for acquisition? Are they 'shoring' up some things in anticipation of being bought?



I've speculated that for a few months, based on two main things: 

a) Sales are way below projections
b) There's a lack of new developments, which is the lifeblood of timeshares.  Given that it takes 2-3 years to get a resort built, there's nothing to sustain SVO in the near and mid-term.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*.. also..*

.. perhaps try to squeeze those who you think have money.. ie, the ones trying to get up to 5* for more sales?

... I wonder how the sales people are being incented to stay if there isn't really too much to sell. Inventory seems to only exist in a few small pockets, plus the Vistana.. 



LisaRex said:


> I've speculated that for a few months, based on two main things:
> 
> a) Sales are way below projections
> b) There's a lack of new developments, which is the lifeblood of timeshares.  Given that it takes 2-3 years to get a resort built, there's nothing to sustain SVO in the near and mid-term.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*What about Westin Riverfront I have been reading about.. isn't that new?*

... just want to make sure we are being fair here...



LisaRex said:


> I've speculated that for a few months, based on two main things:
> 
> a) Sales are way below projections
> b) There's a lack of new developments, which is the lifeblood of timeshares.  Given that it takes 2-3 years to get a resort built, there's nothing to sustain SVO in the near and mid-term.


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## BLUE AYES (Sep 30, 2008)

When Lagunamar was first sold pre-build, no sales reps or customers were told of plans to sell weeks 51/52 as super premium. I purchased premium plus which one would think covered those weeks. When week 51/52 of 2007 rolled around and owners called to reserve 51/52 of 2008 every unit was alledgedly booked. In fact, not a single unit was reserved, Starwood had removed every unit from the market in hopes that they would get sold as event weeks. Here's the kicker at that time they hadn't sold a single event week.Kick in the ass #2 they (against all bylaws) moved week 7 into event week as well.
  They did resolve some of these issues to my satisfaction but only after threatening a lawsuit and trying to get a class action certification.


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## clsmit (Sep 30, 2008)

BLUE AYES said:


> When Lagunamar was first sold pre-build, no sales reps or customers were told of plans to sell weeks 51/52 as super premium. I purchased premium plus which one would think covered those weeks. When week 51/52 of 2007 rolled around and owners called to reserve 51/52 of 2008 every unit was alledgedly booked. In fact, not a single unit was reserved, Starwood had removed every unit from the market in hopes that they would get sold as event weeks. Here's the kicker at that time they hadn't sold a single event week.Kick in the ass #2 they (against all bylaws) moved week 7 into event week as well.
> They did resolve some of these issues to my satisfaction but only after threatening a lawsuit and trying to get a class action certification.



We also never heard of weeks 7/51/52 as super premium when we purchased. Nor did we hear of pure ocean view, as is listed when properties are listed on Westin's website to rent there. Our week is titled as "PlatinumPlus", but it's not any of these weeks!


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## LisaRex (Oct 1, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> What about Westin Riverfront... just want to make sure we are being fair here...



Well, okay, but one development isn't sufficient to sustain an entire organization, especially one that only has a few months of high-demand weeks.  

All other new business are expansions.  Los Cabos was announced and then....nothing.  Aruba was announced and then....nothing.  WKORV-NN was announced and then....nothing.  Have they even broken ground on WK expansion? The Atlantis expansion?


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 1, 2008)

*This certainly is a good piece of info for this thread..*

The pile gets deeper...



BLUE AYES said:


> When Lagunamar was first sold pre-build, no sales reps or customers were told of plans to sell weeks 51/52 as super premium. I purchased premium plus which one would think covered those weeks. When week 51/52 of 2007 rolled around and owners called to reserve 51/52 of 2008 every unit was alledgedly booked. In fact, not a single unit was reserved, Starwood had removed every unit from the market in hopes that they would get sold as event weeks. Here's the kicker at that time they hadn't sold a single event week.Kick in the ass #2 they (against all bylaws) moved week 7 into event week as well.
> They did resolve some of these issues to my satisfaction but only after threatening a lawsuit and trying to get a class action certification.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 1, 2008)

*OK thanks.. I just want to make sure that this thread is unbiased and fair to SVO..*

I want the SVO folks who are reading this to know we all here are being fair.. 



LisaRex said:


> Well, okay, but one development isn't sufficient to sustain an entire organization, especially one that only has a few months of high-demand weeks.
> 
> All other new business are expansions.  Los Cabos was announced and then....nothing.  Aruba was announced and then....nothing.  WKORV-NN was announced and then....nothing.  Have they even broken ground on WK expansion? The Atlantis expansion?


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## Troopers (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Well, okay, but one development isn't sufficient to sustain an entire organization, especially one that only has a few months of high-demand weeks.



I agree.



LisaRex said:


> All other new business are expansions.  Los Cabos was announced and then....nothing.  Aruba was announced and then....nothing.  WKORV-NN was announced and then....nothing.  Have they even broken ground on WK expansion? The Atlantis expansion?



Were these publicly announced or did Tuggers come across this info via goggle that was not intended for public knowledge?


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## Troopers (Oct 1, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> ...In a US where the Economy is crumbling...don't you find it remarkable that SVO doesn't care more then ever about customer service.



IMHO, it's not that SVO doesn't care but SVO has had to find ways to reduce costs because of the crumbling economy.  Almost every industry is suffering.  How can SVO sustain or increase service levels if their revenues are decreasing?  My guess is that every SVO operation impacts customer service levels.  Something has to give perhaps you would have voted for something else to give.


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## LisaRex (Oct 1, 2008)

R Chen said:


> Were these publicly announced or did Tuggers come across this info via goggle that was not intended for public knowledge?



1) Here is the Aruba announcement dated June 13, 2006 
http://www.thetimesharebeat.com/2006/june/0613-05t.htm

WHITE PLAINS, NY -- Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. (NYSE:HOT) and Belfonti Capital Partners announce an agreement to re-flag Belfonti's newly-acquired 478-room Aruba Resort Spa & Casino as The Westin Aruba Resort & Spa. The property will raise the Westin flag in late 2006 upon completion of a renovation to further enhance the property's AAA Four Diamond rating. The hotel also features the 12,000 square-foot Casablanca Casino, one of the Caribbean's premier gaming destinations. Belfonti, which owns the entire property, will manage the casino while Westin will manage the hotel under a long-term agreement.

In addition, Starwood Vacation Ownership, a division of Starwood, plans to launch the first Westin-branded vacation ownership resort on Aruba. This vacation ownership resort will be located on land adjacent to the hotel and plans call for 154 two-bedroom villas. Sales are scheduled to commence by early 2007."

We found out the Aruba TS was being scrapped after a TUGger announced it here.  Starwood confirmed it, but never put out any official communication to its members. They quietly removed it from the SVO public website and (I guess) hoped we wouldn't notice.

2) WKORV-NN announcement is still on MSC:
https://www.mystarcentral.com/CMS/en_US/svo/CMSContent/Sites/MSC/News/NewsItems/Newsitem8

It is supposed to open in fall 2011, which is 3 years away, though they haven't broken ground yet.  

3) The Maui expansion, as well as the others are still included on SVO's public website: 

http://www.starwoodvacationownership.com/salesgallery/expansion.jsp

I know that the WSJ actually happened.  But what about the others?  Here's what they have to say about Westin Kierland on their website right now: 

"Construction on the resort's final phase will be completed this year, with 54 two-bedroom lockoff villas. Opened in 2004, the resort will have a total of 158 villas upon completion."

Did they even start a final phase in 2008? If so, it's news to me. 

4) Los Cabos. Here is a quote from an April 2007 press release:

http://www.resortdeveloper.com/rd/newsroom070403.jsp

“We are excited to extend our presence in Mexico and build another Westin Vacation Ownership resort adjacent to the renowned Westin Resort & Spa in Los Cabos,” said Sergio Rivera, president of real estate development, Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. “As Starwood is one of the oldest and most prominent hotel companies in the country, Mexico is an important market for us. A vacation ownership resort is a natural complement to The Westin Resort and offers guests the benefit of owning a piece of one of the world’s premier destinations.”

Los Cabos does not appear on StarwoodVacationOwnership.com.  If they're not marketing it yet, then it's either off the table altogether or it's several years out.  Who knows? They certainly didn't send out a press release giving an update.  They just said....nothing. 

***
See what I mean? They have all these grandiose plans and then they pull the plug on them for one reason or another. If they needed to pare back because the economy is in the toilet, then you'd think they'd at least mention a delay "due to rising construction costs and a faltering economy." Something. Anything.  Throw us a bone, Starwood!  Pretend that we matter!  Let us know what's going on in the organization that we've invested a lot of money in. 

I'm shouting to the wall.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 1, 2008)

*LisaRex.. this is just terrific info..*

Thank you very much for digging this up!



LisaRex said:


> 1) Here is the Aruba announcement dated June 13, 2006
> http://www.thetimesharebeat.com/2006/june/0613-05t.htm
> 
> WHITE PLAINS, NY -- Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. (NYSE:HOT) and Belfonti Capital Partners announce an agreement to re-flag Belfonti's newly-acquired 478-room Aruba Resort Spa & Casino as The Westin Aruba Resort & Spa. The property will raise the Westin flag in late 2006 upon completion of a renovation to further enhance the property's AAA Four Diamond rating. The hotel also features the 12,000 square-foot Casablanca Casino, one of the Caribbean's premier gaming destinations. Belfonti, which owns the entire property, will manage the casino while Westin will manage the hotel under a long-term agreement.
> ...


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## tlpnet (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> 1) Here is the Aruba announcement dated June 13, 2006
> http://www.thetimesharebeat.com/2006/june/0613-05t.htm
> 
> [Deleted]
> ...


 
I'm not sure what happened in Aruba. My guess would be that maybe the hotel in Aruba may not have done as well as expected. I can also say that when I was searching on II each morning for a Carribbean exchange, I would "select all" and then uncheck Aruba and DR because each of those two had about 3 pages of exchanges available and I didn't want to see the same availability every day. I know many folks here wanted an SVO resort in Aruba, and don't hate me, but possibly there are two many TS's in Aruba already. What's the real issue - lack of communication.



> 2) WKORV-NN announcement is still on MSC:
> https://www.mystarcentral.com/CMS/en_US/svo/CMSContent/Sites/MSC/News/NewsItems/Newsitem8
> 
> It is supposed to open in fall 2011, which is 3 years away, though they haven't broken ground yet.


 
I am looking at WKORN-N over the top of my laptop. Since I've been here, they have drawn long PVC pipes through the trench and appear to be seeding and watering it. IMO, in a month, the ugly pit off my balcony will probably be covered in beautiful wavy grass, and construction will be on hold until the economy improves. I can tell you that the salespeople here (and I'm told that this is the biggest sales office - it is huge) think that sales are going to start soon, so who knows.



> 3) The Maui expansion, as well as the others are still included on SVO's public website:
> 
> http://www.starwoodvacationownership.com/salesgallery/expansion.jsp
> 
> ...


 
I can't speak to Kierland because I neither own there nor have been there. I own up the road in Sedona. There are alot of WKV owners here - maybe an owner can speak to any word they have received of the expansion there - my guess - construction put on hold - lack of communication.



> 4) Los Cabos. Here is a quote from an April 2007 press release:
> 
> http://www.resortdeveloper.com/rd/newsroom070403.jsp
> 
> ...


 
Regarding Cabo, SVO has this webpage on StarwoodVacationOwnership.com. It was updated September 2008, and in brief, it says that they have made progress with the legal tie-ups, but that there are some more agreements that must be in place before they can begin construction. This is the oddity in the bunch. September 2008 is actually pretty recent communication, although you didn't know it existed because you had to search for it. Come on - look at MSC - did you know that two weeks ago they added the ability to convert your week to SP's to the website. Anyone that can wade through the website and find it within 15 minutes wins a prize.  International deals are a little different especially in Mexico - I wouldn' be entirely surprised if once the final hurdles are crossed on this one, they might actually start construction.



> ***
> See what I mean? They have all these grandiose plans and then they pull the plug on them for one reason or another. If they needed to pare back because the economy is in the toilet, then you'd think they'd at least mention a delay "due to rising construction costs and a faltering economy." Something. Anything. Throw us a bone, Starwood! Pretend that we matter! Let us know what's going on in the organization that we've invested a lot of money in.
> 
> I'm shouting to the wall.


 
Here's my opinion, the economy sucks, and everyone has to pay more attention to money that they spend both on capital projects and on expenses. Although Sergio Rivera was a SVO co-president and was in charge of the real estate side of SVO (so he better than anyone at SVO knows the answers to your questions), I for one, have high hopes for his recent promotion to President. Co-presidencies can be really tough, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, changes at the top are usually made for a reason. Sergio comes from the timeshare world, so given some autonomy to run SVO, could effect positive change, both to the company, and hopefully to the owners.

Sergio, if you're reading this, we REALLY REALLY like communicaton. A monthly email newsletter would be nice (even if it's at the bottom of an advertisement for current promotions). We want to know of the exciting new "better ways to see the world" that are forthcoming, or if SVO has put all construction projects on hold pending improvments in the economy. We want to know that we as owners matter to you.

That's all for now. The sun is up, and I've had my coffee.

-tim


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## oneohana (Oct 1, 2008)

What about the new one in the Palm Springs area?


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## tlpnet (Oct 1, 2008)

oneohana said:


> What about the new one in the Palm Springs area?


 
I purchased there and watched the construction taking place before my eyes. My gut feeling is that Phase I will open on schedule. I've got week 52 reserved at WMH - I'll check out the construction progress and report back.

-tim


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## LisaRex (Oct 1, 2008)

tlpnet said:


> Here's my opinion, the economy sucks, and everyone has to pay more attention to money that they spend both on capital projects and on expenses.



Which begs the question:  How does an organization that sells timeshares, and only sells timeshares, sustain itself when the economy is in the toilet and there are limited prospects for new revenue in the foreseeable future?


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## clsmit (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Which begs the question:  How does an organization that sells timeshares, and only sells timeshares, sustain itself when the economy is in the toilet and there are limited prospects for new revenue in the foreseeable future?



They have to break the sales into smaller and smaller buckets to get any sales at all -- more EOY sales, more 1BR sales, more silver season sales... And pushing harder to get those. 

What concerns me more about the management is the lack of a large pipeline. We want properties to go to and they want properties to sell. I'm not seeing too many of these right now.


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## vacationtime1 (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Which begs the question:  How does an organization that sells timeshares, and only sells timeshares, sustain itself when the economy is in the toilet and there are limited prospects for new revenue in the foreseeable future?



Exercise ROFR and re-sell at a profit.  

Some resale prices on Starwood properties are so low that Starwood's acquisition cost would be far lower than building new.  And some of those bargain resale prices are competing directly with the few, new developments Starwood does have in progress (eg. SBP Phase I competes with SBP Palmetto; Mission Hills competes with Desert Willows).  

How can Starwood allow an SBP on resale to transfer for $2,500 when they are selling something new next door for about ten times as much (or at least trying to sell something new next door for ten times as much)?

I understand that it is hard to sell anything right now, but it is even harder if the same thing can be bought for 10% - 25% of the developer price rather than the historic 50% - 60%.


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## Troopers (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> See what I mean? They have all these grandiose plans and then they pull the plug on them for one reason or another. If they needed to pare back because the economy is in the toilet, then you'd think they'd at least mention a delay "due to rising construction costs and a faltering economy." Something. Anything.  Throw us a bone, Starwood!  Pretend that we matter!  Let us know what's going on in the organization that we've invested a lot of money in.
> 
> I'm shouting to the wall.



Thanks LisaRex.  I get where you're coming from.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.  Complaints either way.  Maybe they felt that there would be less of a backlash if they kept their mouths shut.


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## Troopers (Oct 1, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Which begs the question:  How does an organization that sells timeshares, and only sells timeshares, sustain itself when the economy is in the toilet and there are limited prospects for new revenue in the foreseeable future?



Reduce costs.


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## tlpnet (Oct 1, 2008)

vacationtime1 said:


> LisaRex said:
> 
> 
> > Which begs the question: How does an organization that sells timeshares, and only sells timeshares, sustain itself when the economy is in the toilet and there are limited prospects for new revenue in the foreseeable future?
> ...


 
I totally agree. ROFR is a positive first step, and I absolutely would like to see that used for the good of Starwood and it's owners.

Oddly enough, WDW and WMH although less than 10 miles apart, seem like unrelated resorts to me. We'll see what happens when it opens, but the location and artist renderings are magnificent. Hopefully, Starwood is out there prospecting new locations that they can pick up for a deal while the economy is bad because you are right, without new resorts (or excising ROFR to gain inventory), they don't really have big revenue opportunities (or maybe the management revenue they collect from the resorts is sufficient for their existence).

As for it being hard to sell, maybe a lot of people are saying no, but when I was doing my owner's update, the sales office here in Maui was like a summer day at Disneyland with people doing sales tours.

-tim


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## Troopers (Oct 1, 2008)

vacationtime1 said:


> Exercise ROFR and re-sell at a profit.



In this economy, doesn't make sense.

1. It would have to sell at same price as "new" units or otherwise compete against itself and never be able to sell at their developer price.

2. Increase inventory while reducing cash.  Not good when sales are down.



vacationtime1 said:


> Some resale prices on Starwood properties are so low that Starwood's acquisition cost would be far lower than building new.  And some of those bargain resale prices are competing directly with the few, new developments Starwood does have in progress (eg. SBP Phase I competes with SBP Palmetto; Mission Hills competes with Desert Willows).
> 
> How can Starwood allow an SBP on resale to transfer for $2,500 when they are selling something new next door for about ten times as much (or at least trying to sell something new next door for ten times as much)?
> 
> I understand that it is hard to sell anything right now, but it is even harder if the same thing can be bought for 10% - 25% of the developer price rather than the historic 50% - 60%.



Remember their customer base is the uninformed.  They do not lose any customers unless resales are nominally less (say 15%) than their price.    Ultimately, Starwood growth depends on expansion not reselling units in developed properties.


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## Cathyb (Oct 2, 2008)

clsmit: When you were buying your unit, you didn't see the chart that showed the Platinum Plus weeks involved?  Wow, Starwood gets more devious by the day


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## Cathyb (Oct 2, 2008)

oh I thought WDW meant Walt Disney World -- (just kidding).  Do you have access to Mission Hills amenities?  I am curious because I would like to check out the WDW amenities


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## LisaRex (Oct 2, 2008)

For people who think I'm being hysterical:

http://streettalkblog.com/?p=2891

http://www.fool.com/investing/high-growth/2008/09/17/throw-this-stock-away.aspx


"Hotel chains aren't necessarily immune to the real estate crunch. A big sandbag in Starwood's report was a 29% dip in vacation ownership and residential sales."


"...Starwood's earnings will be practically flat with this year's showing, and that's with fewer shares outstanding after some aggressive share repurchases. I would normally applaud buybacks, but Starwood also has more than $4 billion of debt on its balance sheet."

That's billion with a "b." 



That probably answers why they aren't building any more timeshares.  The banks probably won't lend them any money.


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## calgarygary (Oct 2, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> For people who think I'm being hysterical:
> 
> http://streettalkblog.com/?p=2891
> 
> ...



Starwood is having absolutely no difficulty in acquiring new hotels and developing new hotel brands.  There is plenty of $ available to Starwood, they have just been spending it where they receive their largest return.  I firmly believe that in van Paasschen's mind, SVN is like an old pair of Nikes - not worthy of an investment.


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## tlpnet (Oct 2, 2008)

Cathyb said:


> oh I thought WDW meant Walt Disney World -- (just kidding). Do you have access to Mission Hills amenities? I am curious because I would like to check out the WDW amenities


 
To be totally honest, I don't remember. It's probably a good 10-15 minute drive from WDW to WMH and the Westin hotel. It seemed to me that they were trying to market it more as separate resort. It would be kind of weird, though, to exclude amenity sharing within the same area. I'll glance through my owner materials when I get home, and let you know if I find anything.

-tim


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## stevens397 (Oct 2, 2008)

In terms of Cabo, my partner went to the Westin Club Regina 4-5 years ago and toured Grand Regina.  He and his wife fell in love and bought into the newer phase - and the foundation was already up.  

They have since paid it off and are sucking wind.  Got excited about two years ago when he got a letter from Starwood - not only would they complete the job but he would be in the Starwood program I had raved about.  And again, nothing.

He has paid in full ( a load of money) and has extreme doubts it will materialize.  I don't have the heart to share this thread with him - with the economy the way it was, it could be years, if ever, before this project is complete and he actually gets something.

My sense is that he should look for foreclosures in the first section and see if they will let him switch, but he also said that there has been a big cutback on services for those units.

Seems like a big screwing all around.


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## TheUnitrep (Oct 2, 2008)

I haven't posted in a while but my dealings with Owner Services during the past few days led me to post in this thread.....

Two days ago, I decided to book a unit at WKORV-N in mid-January.  My first call to Owner Services was merely an availability check.  Phone number (even though I inputted it via the key pad seconds before), name, address and email provided to the rep. The rep I spoke with told me there was plenty of availability in the type of unit I was requesting for my check-in day (Sat).  Of course the rep added the usual "availability is always subject to change, yada, yada, yada."  When I asked the rep about availability at WKORV, the rep said there was even more units open there.

Yesterday, when our plans were finalized, I called Starwood again.  After providing the required security information, I asked about availability at WKORV-N.  The rep said nothing available for the unit type I was requesting for a Sat check-in.  _What!!!  Just yesterday, there was "plenty of availability." _ Oh well, I thought, it was my fault for not making the reservation the previous day.  I decided to hold off since I really wanted to try the new resort.

This morning, I called Starwood again.  Voila, tons of availability at WKORV-N and WKORV in our unit type and check-in day.  Didn't make the reservation, but called home to make sure we wanted the unit.  Five minutes later I called Starwood back.  No availability at WKORV-N for our requested unit type on our check-in day.

I thanked the rep, hung up, waited 30 seconds and called Starwood again.  New rep, same security hurdles to get over.  This rep tells me tons of availability at both WKORV-N and WKORV.  

Unbelievable......

It's not amazing to me in the least when it comes to Starwood's actions in the myriad of issues being discussed in this thread.  Get with it Starwood...I got three different answers within 10 minutes on an issue as simplistic as unit availability at a resort.

Reservation availability is not rocket science.  Hey Starwood, how about getting an online reservation system.  Stop making us get up when it's still dark on the West Coast just so we can get that most coveted "time stamp."

I'm tired of the seconds that tick by waiting on hold listening to the AMEX advertisements; I'm tired of inputting my phone number and then asking to giving my name, phone number, email address to get past security; I'm tired of getting incorrect information from vacation counselors.

On a separate note....

I shutter to think about how large of an increase I will see in Maintenance Fees when they are released later this year.  Fees went up at one of the resorts we own by nearly 25 percent last year.  The resort is only five years old.  What's going to happen when Starwood resorts require major renovations?

This is the biggest issue I see facing Starwood owners.  Yes, in my opinion, it's much larger than changes in elite benefits; or changing the requirements for 5* status.

I believe that MFs are not kept in check due primarily to the fact that the majority of HOA Board Of Director positions are held by Starwood employees.  If owners filled these positions, I'm certain MFs would not rise as sharply.

Of course this is merely my opinion.....

Jerry


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## LisaRex (Oct 3, 2008)

Jerry, I've only called the number a few times and each time the agent was very helpful. I don't believe the problem is with the agents but with the database, or spreadsheet, or whatever it is that they use.  I think we all pine for a better system.

BTW, even though Starwood says they'll charge a fee for changing reservations, they don't usually this.  So for future reference, I'd have booked the villa the first go-around in order to get the best timestamp.  Then if I decided not to go that week, I'd call back to cancel and reserve another week.  Some of these villas do go quickly and it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 3, 2008)

I called just this morning (and for the last 2 Fridays) to reserve our WKORV and WPORV for next year w/o an issue.  I got thru right away and the associates were friendly and knowledgable (and understood that it was early for me).  I haven't had to enter my phone number in to get thru to an associate (nor press 1 for english...) for a while.  I am calling the Elite line - so I do not know if that makes a difference.  Total time is about 5 minutes - on at 6AM (w/o wait) and off by 6:05AM.

I do agree about the database entry system - I feel like I am in that episode in "Meet the Parents" when Ben Stiller's character is trying to board the airplane - certaining a lot of typing going on.

One new issue - is that they have changed their reservation confirmations (assume because it was getting caught in spam filters), and while I do not have a problem with that - the really strange thing is that for our WKORV Dlx OF units - the confirmation no longer states 'Deluxe'.  I called and checked with them on this - mainly because I rented out the studio and my rental contract states 'Deluxe'.  They told me not to worry and I will get my unit type, but... given the mistakes that they are prone to - how can I not worry?

Another small issue - is that only about 1 in 4 times do that ask me for my 'password' that I asked to be placed on my account.


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## Lewis (Oct 3, 2008)

*Our SVO experience has been great*

We only own 1 timeshare (resale), but have used StarOptions several times to book reservations at WMH, WKORV, and our home resort, WKV.  We also deposited the small side once, and got our same resort/season deposited to II.

I have always experienced great customer service, and can't think of a single glitch.  We have also had excellent results with resort availability, although we do tend to travel in the shoulder seasons, and have not tried WSJ or Harborside.

In fact, on a few occasions, we have not been charged the $29 change fee when we could have been.

In some ways, I would welcome the idea of having an on-line booking system but I can't honestly say the current system has been a problem.  And, I would hate to see an expensive computer system somehow result in MF increases. 

Considering the resort quality, availability, and the customer service we've received, SVO has worked great for us.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 5, 2008)

*Hi.. Thread was asking for experiences with SVO Management..*

.. not just experience booking resorts and general customer service. 

Thanks though..



Lewis said:


> We only own 1 timeshare (resale), but have used StarOptions several times to book reservations at WMH, WKORV, and our home resort, WKV.  We also deposited the small side once, and got our same resort/season deposited to II.
> 
> I have always experienced great customer service, and can't think of a single glitch.  We have also had excellent results with resort availability, although we do tend to travel in the shoulder seasons, and have not tried WSJ or Harborside.
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 5, 2008)

*In this economic environment...*

Vacation Ownership would be the first to dry up, as people reduce their discretionary spending. I agree...



R Chen said:


> In this economy, doesn't make sense.
> 
> 1. It would have to sell at same price as "new" units or otherwise compete against itself and never be able to sell at their developer price.
> 
> ...


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## ckg (Oct 5, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I've speculated that for a few months, based on two main things:
> 
> a) Sales are way below projections
> b) There's a lack of new developments, which is the lifeblood of timeshares.  Given that it takes 2-3 years to get a resort built, there's nothing to sustain SVO in the near and mid-term.



I could not agree more with this.  I "own" at DVC and their location (an IMO flexibility) are their key assets.  I have been looking at ideas for another non Disney timeshare I can reasonably trade and use and so have been looking at Starwood an Marriot. I see no new resorts at Starwood which stinks.  Not much appeal in expansions (big whoop!).  Also I think there offerings are essentially limited to US properties which as the kids get older will get boring.  

I am surprised they do not do a ROFR like Disney to reduce secondary market sales.  There really is very little incentive for those in the know to buy direct as far as I can see (really only SVN at some properties).   That has gotta hurt their bottom line.  

Wish they had more interesting locals than HI and a couple of Carribean locals.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 6, 2008)

*With this market, time share sales are going to suffer first..*

.. which makes their decision to raise the bar without notice on the Plat ownership very very curious. Something else is going on...



ckg said:


> I could not agree more with this.  I "own" at DVC and their location (an IMO flexibility) are their key assets.  I have been looking at ideas for another non Disney timeshare I can reasonably trade and use and so have been looking at Starwood an Marriot. I see no new resorts at Starwood which stinks.  Not much appeal in expansions (big whoop!).  Also I think there offerings are essentially limited to US properties which as the kids get older will get boring.
> 
> I am surprised they do not do a ROFR like Disney to reduce secondary market sales.  There really is very little incentive for those in the know to buy direct as far as I can see (really only SVN at some properties).   That has gotta hurt their bottom line.
> 
> Wish they had more interesting locals than HI and a couple of Carribean locals.


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## SDKath (Oct 6, 2008)

I honestly don't think so.  I think they legitimately saw a dilution of Platinum benefits (upgrades to suites) and when that imaginary 2000 cap got close (probably now), they decided to raise the bar to slow down the growth to Platinum, at least until more hotels can be built.

What they didn't anticipate I bet is this huge recession we just hit (although I don't know how anyone didn't see this coming).  Their hotels are now going to be sitting empty, PFL upgrades will be more available again, and things will balance out.  Except that they raised the SOs permanently -- stabbing their TS clients in the back big time.  

But hey, at least their high flying business clients will still keep those hotels full.  Oh wait, were those execs from AIG and Lehman and Merrill.   

Kath


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## BradC (Oct 6, 2008)

I think SDKath is right on the money -- as the cap got close, they wanted to make it just a little harder to reach.  It's a lot like how the developer prices skyrocket when they're down to the last few remaining units for sale at a property.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*Hmm .interesting..*

But, again, why no notice? It would have been fine had they not changed without notice and screwed the folks who were in process.





BradC said:


> I think SDKath is right on the money -- as the cap got close, they wanted to make it just a little harder to reach.  It's a lot like how the developer prices skyrocket when they're down to the last few remaining units for sale at a property.


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## jarta (Oct 8, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> But, again, why no notice? It would have been fine had they not changed without notice and screwed the folks who were in process.



There really is no "in process."  Unless you have a signed, written option to purchase a timeshare for a set amount of time, you must have a signed, written purchase agreement.  You have either signed a document or you haven't.  You either have contract rights or you don't.

Until you have a purchaser's contract rights, what is actually included as part of the purchase can be changed by the seller.

Every time I have talked with a Starwood salesperson, they have urged me to buy that day.  I never considered myself "in process" when I told them: "No, not today."

Having said that, I do feel your pain at making a decision on how and when to get to Five Star Elite that turned out to be flawed.

Several weeks ago I bought one even and one odd week at Lagunamar to get to Five Star Elite before the change.  Since then, there have been reports that the prices at Lagunamar have dropped.  So, did I "overpay?"  In my mind, no!  A deal is a deal.  (And I won't complain about the windfall bargain received by those who waited a few weeks to buy at Lagunamar.)


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## pointsjunkie (Oct 8, 2008)

jarta said:


> There really is no "in process."  Unless you have a signed, written option to purchase a timeshare for a set amount of time, you must have a signed, written purchase agreement.  You have either signed a document or you haven't.  You either have contract rights or you don't.
> 
> Until you have a purchaser's contract rights, what is actually included as part of the purchase can be changed by the seller.
> 
> ...



congratulations,i hope you will be very happy as we are.


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> But, again, why no notice? It would have been fine had they not changed without notice and screwed the folks who were in process.



I agree advance notice should or a grace period provided.  My guess why they do not provide notice is 1. not required by law and 2. damage control (why "stir things up" and get the majority of owners who aren't affected a reason to question the change when this really impacts a small % of owners)


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## oneohana (Oct 9, 2008)

R Chen said:


> I agree advance notice should or a grace period provided.  My guess why they do not provide notice is 1. not required by law and 2. damage control (why "stir things up" and get the majority of owners who aren't affected a reason to question the change when this really impacts a small % of owners)



Many here are talking that *wood gave no advanced warning. I heard it had so have others. A few took them seroiusly and speeded up their process to get to 5*. 
I know that I'll get flamed for this.

 My last requal I was calling Starwood every week to make sure things were going ok. I had everything in writing, but after what they did to myip I was still worried. There were a few bumps, but they all got straightened out in the end.


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

oneohana said:


> Many here are talking that *wood gave no advanced warning. I heard it had so have others. A few took them seroiusly and speeded up their process to get to 5*.
> I know that I'll get flamed for this.



I had not heard that.

Duck when Tuggers fire away.


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## LisaRex (Oct 9, 2008)

oneohana said:


> Many here are talking that *wood gave no advanced warning. I heard it had so have others. A few took them seroiusly and speeded up their process to get to 5*.
> I know that I'll get flamed for this.



Not sure why you think you'll get flamed for speaking the truth.  Others had not heard, nor had the salesmen they were working with, unless you're talking about the rumor that they were reaching the 2000 PFL cap soon.   If it was another advanced warning that you're speaking about, then I'm know a few folks here would have sure appreciated a heads up.


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## calgarygary (Oct 9, 2008)

If Starwood had given advance warning to some, then this is just another example of poor communication within the company and with their customers.  A change in program is a powerful sales tool to move people off the fence about purchases.  The fact that several have posted here that this information was not used tells me that not even the sales force had complete and accurate information about the changes and sales have been lost in both the short term but especially so in the long term.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 14, 2008)

*Totally agree..*

Still trying to speak with Starwood mgmt. Will communicate here if I am able to.





calgarygary said:


> If Starwood had given advance warning to some, then this is just another example of poor communication within the company and with their customers.  A change in program is a powerful sales tool to move people off the fence about purchases.  The fact that several have posted here that this information was not used tells me that not even the sales force had complete and accurate information about the changes and sales have been lost in both the short term but especially so in the long term.


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## Joshadelic (Oct 14, 2008)

Good luck getting in touch with anyone.  I PM'd StarwoodLurker over on FT the other day - practically begging him to use whatever power or influence he may have to get someone, anyone at Starwood VO to actually have a two-way conversation with us.  This was several days ago and, of course, he didn't write back to me.


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## DeniseM (Oct 14, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> Good luck getting in touch with anyone.  I PM'd StarwoodLurker over on FT the other day - practically begging him to use whatever power or influence he may have to get someone, anyone at Starwood VO to actually have a two-way conversation with us.  This was several days ago and, of course, he didn't write back to me.



The hotel division and the timeshare division are 2 separate entities, so Starwoodlurker has no reason to be interested in what happens on TUG or in the timeshare world.  Several Tuggers have been told that it is against Starwood policy to communicate here on TUG.  I wouldn't expect that to change in the near future....but I appreciate your enthusiasm!


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## Joshadelic (Oct 14, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> The hotel division and the timeshare division are 2 separate entities, so Starwoodlurker has no reason to be interested in what happens on TUG or in the timeshare world.  Several Tuggers have been told that it is against Starwood policy to communicate here on TUG.  I wouldn't expect that to change in the near future....but I appreciate your enthusiasm!



I was just hoping that on some sort of human-being type level that StarwoodLurker might be able do something...anything at all.  I know they are two separate divisions.  While clearly they either: a)have no desire to speak to us - or b)they are just complete cowards, I thought maybe StarwoodLurker could make them aware that those are really the last two possible scenarios and neither are very good for their reputation.


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## Troopers (Oct 14, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> I was just hoping that on some sort of human-being type level that StarwoodLurker might be able do something...anything at all.



Joshadelic, I'm with you 100%.  See my post #2 on this thread and my other posts on the other threads.


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## Troopers (Oct 14, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> The hotel division and the timeshare division are 2 separate entities, so Starwoodlurker has no reason to be interested in what happens on TUG or in the timeshare world.  Several Tuggers have been told that it is against Starwood policy to communicate here on TUG.  I wouldn't expect that to change in the near future....but I appreciate your enthusiasm!



Haven't you been in a situation and was told "sorry, but I can't help you...it's against company policy.....it's out of my hands....there's nothing I can do to help you....blah blah blah"?  But after pleading and begging and/or expaining the situation and/or politely asking what he/she can do, somehow and someway you ended up with what you asked for.


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## DeniseM (Oct 14, 2008)

This is the thing - we _know_ that Starwood reads these boards, so they are already  well aware of our concerns and they just chose not to respond...  Therefore, contacting someone in the hotel division is not likely to have any affect, when the Starwood TS division is already aware that Tuggers are frustrated with their lack of communication.


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## SDKath (Oct 14, 2008)

I think it is always worth a try!  Good that you have the patience and willingness to make 1000 phone calls, Serg, even if they all say "no, sorry."  I have written a couple letters and sent some emails so I am barking up a tree too.  Just not seeing much in the way of a response (well, I HAVE gotten a response -- "no, sorry" already but I am looking for a yes).

Katherine


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## DeniseM (Oct 14, 2008)

Good point, Kath - and I've sent my emails and made calls too.  I'm just sharing what we've done in the past - without much success, I'm not trying to discourage anyone who wants to contact Starwood.  I do believe that over time it can have some results - look at the improvements that seem to be happening with customer service for resale owners who deposit with II.  I do believe that is a direct result of owners discussing it here, contacting Starwood, and not accepting poor service.  

But what I keep seeing here is that people seem to think that Starwood must not be getting the message, or surely they would respond....and I just don't believe that.  The lack of good communication from Starwood is a choice they've made....it's not due to lack of owner input.


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