# ebay auction



## ronparise (Jul 20, 2014)

so who got this good deal? 

ebay



42000 credits 60000 available now, $9000 assumable loan  
 high bid of $5001

works out to 33 cents a credit


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## slip (Jul 20, 2014)

Ron, Where did you have you're esnipe set?


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## uscav8r (Jul 20, 2014)

Heck, I thought it'd be you, Ron, with your affinity for assumable loans...


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## uscav8r (Jul 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> so who got this good deal?
> 
> ebay
> 
> ...


And it was won by 1 cent, too...


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## ampaholic (Jul 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> so who got this *good deal*?
> 
> ebay
> 
> ...



I thought the rule of thumb with WM is to buy only by what you need - I don't need 13 vacations per year.


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2014)

Rick

42000 credits is only 2.5 weeks at Reunion...4 weeks at the legacy resorts.  Im trying to build enough of an account to make a Worldmark resort my second home and 3rd home...(I'll live in Florida for 4 months in the winter, then 4 months in SanDiego where my son lives, and another 4 months in SanFrancisco where my daughter lives).....so Im looking at 300000 or so credits. This deal would have gotten me to my goal

Chris 

I tried

Jeff

esnipe was set at 2350 or 27 cents a credit... If I had won I would have rented the 60000 credits in the account at 6 cents, to get  back my down payment and transfer fee, plus $1000  (I call it profit)


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## slip (Jul 20, 2014)

One thing about the auctions, you have to stick to your guns.


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## CO skier (Jul 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> so who got this good deal?
> 
> ebay
> 
> ...



$5000 purchase price + $9000 loan + $1200(MF until next anniversary in April) minus (60,000 credits rented at $0.06) divided by 42,000 credits equals 27.6 cents/credit.

For someone who wants that many credits and can payoff the loan and not have to make the minimum monthly payment (otherwise at 19% interest or whatever outrageous amount it is, they are just working for Wyndham or the finance company) it is a good deal.  That is the key; how may people want to or can vacation in WorldMark for 4 weeks per year, can payoff the $9000 loan and are willing to commit to $2400 per year in MF.  There are some, but most of the "action" is in the 20,000 credits per year and under.

Accounts trading hands at $0.30/ credit have been around for at least a year.  There have been reports of sales in the $0.15-0.20/credit for that long.

This auction does not seem to be that unusual.  It is only unusual for the number of points involved.


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## uscav8r (Jul 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> so who got this good deal?




We might find out in about 6 weeks when ads for 60k rental credits and maybe a 42k resale pop up on TUG or WMO. 


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2014)

CO skier said:


> $5000 purchase price + $9000 loan + $1200(MF until next anniversary in April) minus (60,000 credits rented at $0.06) divided by 42,000 credits equals 27.6 cents/credit.
> 
> For someone who wants that many credits and can payoff the loan and not have to make the minimum monthly payment (otherwise at 19% interest or whatever outrageous amount it is, they are just working for Wyndham or the finance company) it is a good deal.  That is the key; how may people want to or can vacation in WorldMark for 4 weeks per year, can payoff the $9000 loan and are willing to commit to $2400 per year in MF.  There are some, but most of the "action" is in the 20,000 credits per year and under.
> 
> ...




the interest rate is closer to 12%, the payment is $145 /month or  $1700 a year... mf is $2400 ..so annual expenses are  $4200 a year\

If we assume 4 weeks a year...thats $1000 a week...until the loan is paid off ...I dont think thats too bad. 

This auction is unusual because of its size and because of the assumable loan.... Its not often you can buy into WM  this cheaply.


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## CO skier (Jul 21, 2014)

ronparise said:


> the interest rate is closer to 12%, the payment is $145 /month or  $1700 a year... mf is $2400 ..so annual expenses are  $4200 a year\
> 
> If we assume 4 weeks a year...thats $1000 a week...until the loan is paid off ...I dont think thats too bad.
> 
> This auction is unusual because of its size and because of the assumable loan.... Its not often you can buy into WM  this cheaply.



Here is a 7,000 fully loaded account that sold for $2050+$556 for last years MF=$2606.  It is one year to the next anniversary, so add another $556.  Subtract 14,000 credits valued at $0.06/credit ($840), total cost = $2322

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WorldMark-B...51580954595?pt=Timeshares&hash=item3a9364b7e3

There is a $2680 savings vs. the $5000 for the 42000 credit account from the start.

MF on 7000 credits is $556.  Add $2100 for 35,000 credits rented at $0.06 plus $195 for 3 Housekeeping tokens at$65 each = $2851 per year.

That is $700/week for 4 weeks per year with no 12% loan obligation.  I think that is a better deal.

The large account owner does not have the hassle of renting in credits each year, but $300/week is a heck of a convenience fee.

And what about the years that only 2 weeks can be used?  The large account holder has the hassle of renting out the excess credits.

Savings of $2680 plus an additional savings of $1200/year until the loan is paid off?  Sign me up.


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## uscav8r (Jul 21, 2014)

CO skier said:


> Here is a 7,000 fully loaded account that sold for $2050+$556 for last years MF=$2606.  It is one year to the next anniversary, so add another $556.  Subtract 14,000 credits valued at $0.06/credit ($840), total cost = $2322
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/WorldMark-B...51580954595?pt=Timeshares&hash=item3a9364b7e3
> 
> ...



These numbers assume the buyer is looking to keep the account and the loan. I think it is just as likely that the buyer is looking to strip the current credits and HKT, and then resell the contract, perhaps keeping it for no more than 3-9 months. The fact that there was a loan could have kept the price down, but it ended up being just a good deal vice a great deal since it did go for close to the going rate. 


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## CO skier (Jul 21, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> These numbers assume the buyer is looking to keep the account and the loan. I think it is just as likely that the buyer is looking to strip the current credits and HKT, and then resell the contract, perhaps keeping it for no more than 3-9 months.



At the going rate of $0.30/credit, after selling the points and HK, the buyer is looking at making about $0.03 times 42000 credits, or $1260 (it will depend, of course, on what the sale price turns out to be).  It seems like a lot of time and hassle -- notarizations buying and selling, placing ads, will the buyer pay me?, etc. for minimum return.

Then there is that $145 loan payment plus $200 maintenance fee payment each month which would quickly corrode any profit.


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2014)

CO skier said:


> At the going rate of $0.30/credit, after selling the points and HK, the buyer is looking at making about $0.03 times 42000 credits, or $1260 (it will depend, of course, on what the sale price turns out to be).  It seems like a lot of time and hassle -- notarizations buying and selling, placing ads, will the buyer pay me?, etc. for minimum return.
> 
> Then there is that $145 loan payment plus $200 maintenance fee payment each month which would quickly corrode any profit.



Its only a minimum return if you do it once, do a deal like this every week and pretty soon you are talking about a business.  and as Chris said  flip the contract at 30 cents a credit and you will never see another loan payment of mf bill

As to the hassle of placing ads and renting credits,,,My experience is that its not. and as to the hassle of selling....sure its a hassle if you do it once a year, but do it once a week and it becomes routine. ......

But forget the strip and resell strategy....a buy and hold strategy like mine can  work too.  I recently made and rented 8 weekends at a Worldmark resort (40000 credits) I rented these at $600 each which is slightly better than breakeven...    ezpz

But I think the best reason to buy Worldmark credits is as a proxy for a second home.   Im working with someone now that is shopping for a condo in New Orleans,  A place of their own where they can stay for  Mardi Gras, and use a weekend a month or so. They are considering a $250000 condo with monthly fees plus taxes and insurance and utilities of about $10000 a year.plus a mortgage payment.    Im suggesting 80000 or so wordlmark credits  At the numbers weve been tossing around $8000 a year with no capital investment......


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## Bigrob (Jul 23, 2014)

ronparise said:


> so who got this good deal?
> 
> ebay
> 
> ...



When I first saw that one I assumed you would be all over it. I actually think the one Sean Singletary sold recently was the better deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221490995086?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

23K credits for $5933 all in. less than 26 cents per credit. But I don't quite have the same affinity you do for the assumable loan - which is good because it keeps us from stepping on each other.

I wasn't the winning bidder on either one.


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## ronparise (Jul 23, 2014)

Eric

Thats the better deal if you have $6000 you are willing to tie up...

I like the assumable loan deals because I think timeshares are risky business. and Id rather do it with other peoples money.  

My game plan is to use other peoples money to buy the timeshares, rent for enough to pay off the loan and provide a positive cash flow.  The positive cash flow Ill  use to pay off my home...and One day soon I hope to report that the home is paid off as well as the timeshares..


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## sparty (Jul 24, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Eric
> 
> 
> I like the assumable loan deals because I think timeshares are risky business. and Id rather do it with other peoples money.



Does it include using a LLC to mitigate financial liability too and how does a LLC affect risk to other owners?


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## ronparise (Jul 24, 2014)

sparty said:


> Does it include using a LLC to mitigate financial liability too and how does a LLC affect risk to other owners?



I have an  LLC but not because it might mitigate financial libility and not for my Worldmark.  I do that personally.    I have  LLC's for some of my Wyndham stuff,  because it lives forever and I wont.   There is a financial aspect to my decision to do things in an LLC too..... I can sell a Platinum account with 15 or 20 contracts at once without 15 or 20 $299 fees. and with the Platinum benefits.


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## uscav8r (Jul 24, 2014)

sparty said:


> Does it include using a LLC to mitigate financial liability too and how does a LLC affect risk to other owners?




If I recall correctly, ownership at Worldmark must be held by up to two individuals, no LLCs. 


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## uscav8r (Jul 24, 2014)

ronparise said:


> I have an  LLC but not because it might mitigate financial libility and not for my Worldmark.  I do that personally.    I have  LLC's for some of my Wyndham stuff,  because it lives forever and I wont.   There is a financial aspect to my decision to do things in an LLC too..... I can sell a Platinum account with 15 or 20 contracts at once without 15 or 20 $299 fees. and with the Platinum benefits.




That last line is a great point/idea. No need to "sell" contracts to someone else. Just sell the LLC lock, stock, and barrel... Nice...


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## cotraveller (Jul 24, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> If I recall correctly, ownership at Worldmark must be held by up to two individuals, no LLCs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Don't know about an LLC, but a corporation can hold a WorldMark account, wmowners has one.  A Trust can also hold a WorldMark account, I checked on that when we set up our family trust.


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## sparty (Jul 24, 2014)

cotraveller said:


> Don't know about an LLC, but a corporation can hold a WorldMark account, wmowners has one.  A Trust can also hold a WorldMark account, I checked on that when we set up our family trust.



Interesting on wmowners.. I thought wmowners was based out of Oregon but I didn't see any registration information.


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## uscav8r (Jul 24, 2014)

cotraveller said:


> Don't know about an LLC, but a corporation can hold a WorldMark account, wmowners has one.  A Trust can also hold a WorldMark account, I checked on that when we set up our family trust.


WRT the family trust, how is the ownership recorded? Just "Fred's Family Trust" or it is jointly owned as "Fred, trustee, and Fred's Family Trust"?

Does that then require you to put the Trust beneficiaries as guests when you make reservations?


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## VacationForever (Jul 24, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> WRT the family trust, how is the ownership recorded? Just "Fred's Family Trust" or it is jointly owned as "Fred, trustee, and Fred's Family Trust"?
> 
> Does that then require you to put the Trust beneficiaries as guests when you make reservations?



It should be something like Fred, Trustee of Fred's Family Trust.  Only the trustees are considered the owners.  Beneficiaries are guests.  After trustee(s) pass away, and the estate is distributed according to the trust, then the beneficiary can assume ownership which would still require a transfer in title to assume ownership.


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## uscav8r (Jul 24, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> If I recall correctly, ownership at Worldmark must be held by up to two individuals, no LLCs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





cotraveller said:


> Don't know about an LLC, but a corporation can hold a WorldMark account, wmowners has one.  A Trust can also hold a WorldMark account, I checked on that when we set up our family trust.



Reviewing the Guidelines, I cannot find an explicit prohibition against LLCs, DBAs, corporations, trusts, etc.. However, there is this broadly worded "catch-all" guideline which _could _be interpreted to exclude those types of ownership (it's amazing how varied each TS system/independent treats non-persons):

SECTION E — ADMINISTRATION
1. Single Residence Ownership. Club ownership is designed for use by Owners who live in the same residence, and Owners who
sign the same Vacation Owner Agreement must meet that requirement. This does not prohibit Guest usage by persons living in other
residences.



sptung said:


> It should be something like Fred, Trustee of  Fred's Family Trust.  Only the trustees are considered the owners.   Beneficiaries are guests.  After trustee(s) pass away, and the estate is  distributed according to the trust, then the beneficiary can assume  ownership which would still require a transfer in title to assume  ownership.



I would think you have it right, but hopefully Fred can shed some light on the specifics of how this is done, considering the above guideline. I might want to do something similar myself at some point.


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## cotraveller (Jul 24, 2014)

I can't shed any specifics about having our WorldMark account listed in the trust name since I only inquired about it, I never did the actual transfer.  I talked to both the transfer department and to owner services about trust ownership.  It was not clear whether the grandfathered benefits I have would transfer to the trust, so I didn't pursue it.  The WorldMark account is listed in the trust as passing to a relative who is familiar with WorldMark and who will be happy to receive it.  A transfer of ownership will be required at that time.

As far as how it would be listed if I did have the registration changed to our trust, I would use the designation supplied by our attorney on the Certificate of Trust.  That lists both the trust name and our names (wife and I) as trustees.  Nothing would change concerning reservations.   We would still be the owners and anyone else we booked for would be guests.


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## sparty (Jul 24, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> WRT the family trust, how is the ownership recorded? Just "Fred's Family Trust" or it is jointly owned as "Fred, trustee, and Fred's Family Trust"?
> 
> Does that then require you to put the Trust beneficiaries as guests when you make reservations?



Not a lawyer but I do manage a HOA...

There are a couple ways this is ok..

For example:
 John Smith, Sue Smith, Trust Agreement of John Smith. This is the most common way I believe.

or John Smith, Sue Smith, Trustees of the John Smith Trust

You name the individuals and then list it as a specific persons trust.

Then when you go after them you do a "John Smith, individually and as trustee of the Smith Family Trust" - Don't ask me how I know this


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## LLW (Jul 25, 2014)

sparty said:


> Interesting on wmowners.. I thought wmowners was based out of Oregon but I didn't see any registration information.



Wmowners is a Utah not-for-profit. Some contact info are out of Oregon, because some officers are in Oregon. (All officers are volunteers who rotate into and out of officer positions.)

WMO's WM account was donated to it several years after start-up.


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## sparty (Jul 27, 2014)

LLW said:


> Wmowners is a Utah not-for-profit. Some contact info are out of Oregon, because some officers are in Oregon. (All officers are volunteers who rotate into and out of officer positions.)
> 
> WMO's WM account was donated to it several years after start-up.



Interesting.. Wondering what I am doing wrong - I can see my company registered in Utah but nothing on WMOwners..


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## sparty (Jul 28, 2014)

Ahhh I see what I did wrong it's actually WM Owners, Inc.  So should the proxy be assigned to WM Owners, INC, are you missing a space in your footer LLW?


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## LLW (Aug 5, 2014)

sparty said:


> Ahhh I see what I did wrong it's actually WM Owners, Inc.  So should the proxy be assigned to WM Owners, INC, are you missing a space in your footer LLW?



Ah! Silly me! I had always thought it was without the space! But yes, it should be with a space.


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