# 40 Year Florida Timeshare Expires in 3 Years - Then What?



## bbakernbay

Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.

Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.

The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.

The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.

Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.

I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.

The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.

The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.

Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds.  At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.

I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.

By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.

Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions.  Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.


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## Panina

bbakernbay said:


> Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.
> 
> Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.
> 
> The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.
> 
> The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.
> 
> Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.
> 
> I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.
> 
> The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.
> 
> The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.
> 
> Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds.  At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.
> 
> I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.
> 
> By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.
> 
> Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions.  Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.


I personally would pay the $350 fee for each and get out of ownership.  Too high of a risk at this point to have to continue paying maintenance without use.


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## TUGBrian

this is actually more common than you would think!

can do a search here on the forums for "sunset clause" and find a very lengthy thread on it (probably more than one).

it impacts MANY independent timeshares that were established in the 70s and 80s.


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## Panina

TUGBrian said:


> this is actually more common than you would think!
> 
> can do a search here on the forums for "sunset clause" and find a very lengthy thread on it (probably more than one).
> 
> it impacts MANY independent timeshares that were established in the 70s and 80s.


It’s not the sunset clause that bothers me.  It’s the financial condition of the resort.


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## bbakernbay

I live in Canada and the Manager at one of our other Florida timeshares told me that it is nearly impossible to legally come after non-American Owners.

Does anyone have any experience with those situations.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> I live in Canada and the Manager at one of our other Florida timeshares told me that it is nearly impossible to legally come after non-American Owners and that I could likely just walk away without paying if they didn’t want to take a Deedback without any fees being paid by me.



It's certainly not "nearly impossible", but it *would* be time consuming and expensive and therefore not cost effective. Foreclosure is quicker and cheaper, particularly in states providing for streamlined non-judicial foreclosure proceedings.

It's interesting that a manager would offer insight and / or encouragement to owners regarding just "walking away". This makes me wonder just whose interests this person truly represents . Some might argue that a manager offering such input  should be the one "walking away" --- perhaps with a cardboard box containing his / her personal effects while being escorted off the property.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.
> 
> Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.
> 
> The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.
> 
> The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.
> 
> Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.
> 
> I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.
> 
> The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.
> 
> The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.
> 
> Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds.  At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.
> 
> I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.
> 
> By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.
> 
> Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions.  Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.



Yes, *many* "sunset clause" (40 years) dates at FL properties built in the early 1980's are looming in the next very few years. We own several intervals at two different places in FL in that same situation --- both have already formally voted to "extend" as a timeshare.

This topic has been discussed at some length in recent years within other TUG threads. Many proactive FL resorts (those in decent  financial and physical condition, anyhow) have (as our two have) already acquired sufficient owner majority votes in recent years to "extend" as a timeshare, commonly for another 10 years --- and have amended the underlying governing docs accordingly, averting any need for "last minute" scurrying for enough votes or other hasty "last minute" decisions or frantic efforts while the clock ticks down to zero hour.

The details and specifics and requirements at *your* resort reside within the governing condo docs (Declaration of Condominium) of that particular property, without knowledge of which it's very difficult to speculate / guess / opine on the direction(s) your property can or will go. I've not personally seen a place do the death spiral to completion, so I wouldn't dare venture a guess. 

At 50% (and likley growing) delinquency, it's frankly hard to see how the place can even function for the 3 remaining years; the delinquency rate will obviously just increase further, as more and more owners "bail" in the face of continuously and excessively increasing maintenance fees imposed to try to keep the doors open.

Fwiw, there was a recent article in _Timesharing Today_ (magazine) detailing the ultimate demise (and subsequent events regarding) a timeshare property in west coastal Florida called Sutherland Crossing. If sufficiently interested, you might consider picking up a copy of _TT_ to see if any of that evolution offers any crystal ball insights into _*your*_ future at your place.


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## bbakernbay

I probably overstated what the Manager stated and should have properly had a period after non-American Owners.

I came to my own conclusion that “I could likely just walk away without paying them to take a Deedback ...”

Our first inclination is to take it one year at a time and see what the end of the 40 years bring although any further large increases in our MFees will likely make up our mind for us.  We were under assessed in MFees for many years so it is not unreasonable yet.

It is quite likely that we are not alone in Florida with this financial situation.

Thank you for your post.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> We were under assessed in MFees for many years so it is not unreasonable yet.
> *It is quite likely that we are not alone in Florida with this financial situation.*



That's for certain. I see the very same situation developing at one of our two Florida timeshares; both were originally built in the early 1980's. Prime, unbeatable locations in both instances, but infrastructure is now in only mediocre condition. Maintenance fees have been too low for too long --- and it shows. One place is getting decidedly "tired" looking (and feeling). However, the very low delinquency rate keeps the under-motivated Board and most owners placated.

I see the same phenomenon at other nearby older timeshare properties as well. Absolutely prime locations, but infrastructure is "aging in place" while receiving insufficient  attention. The word "upgrades" seems not to even be part of their vocabulary, but people just *love* those low annual fees. We actually bailed out of a third property in that area already; its' ongoing decline in overall condition had triggered my "tipping point". Selling that prime week (to a fellow owner who just *loves* those low fees) was relatively easy.

As you surely know, Florida law allows timeshares properties (maybe even *all* condos, I don't claim to know about that) to deliberately "underfund" financial reserves if Board and owners decide / vote to choose that option. It is, in my view, "penny wise and pound foolish", but mine is a minority viewpoint;  the approval vote for willful underfunding of reserves was actually quite lopsided.


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## Panina

theo said:


> That's for certain. I see the very same situation developing at one of our two Florida timeshares; both were originally built in the early 1980's.
> Prime, unbeatable locations, but infrastructure is now in only mediocre condition. Maintenance fees have been too low for too long --- and it shows.
> One place is getting decidedly "tired" looking (and feeling). However, the very low delinquency rate keeps the Board and (most) owners satisfied.
> 
> I see the same phenomenon at nearby older timeshare properties as well. Absolutely prime locations, but infrastucture "aging in place" with minimal attention. The word "upgrades" seems not to even be part of the vocabulary, but people *love* those low annual fees.
> 
> As you surely know, Florida law allows timeshares properties (maybe even *all* condos, I don't claim to know about that) to deliberately underfund financial reserves if Board and owners decide (and vote) to choose that option. It is, in my view, "penny wise and pound foolish", but mine is definitely a minority viewpoint, as the approval vote for willful underfunding of reserves was quite lopsided.


I also own at few resorts with the clause that were built in the 80’s but they are well maintained.  I wouldn’t  call the maintenances dirt cheap but they are reasonable next to the chains.  They are working on extending.


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## theo

Panina said:


> I personally would pay the $350 fee for each and get out of ownership.  Too high of a risk at this point to have to continue paying maintenance *without use*.



OP has actually indicated *using* the four owned weeks each year.

Just the same, I am inclined to agree with your view that a 50% (and surely growing) delinquency rate is motivation to at least *consider* a "pay and bail" deedback, but I'm also sure the OP may be wisely contemplating that he does not want to prematurely walk away from a potential payout in 3 years, if there should be one. I suspect that may be determined by value of the underlying real estate. As Will Rogers once said about land, "they're not making any more of it".


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.



The manager may or may not have his / her facts straight here (and may or may have ever even *seen or read* the underlying condo docs [CC&R's]). It's also unclear (to me, anyhow) just *whose* interests this manager truly represents, since you indicate "new management" on scene --- yet apparently just one (identified and known) management representative. 

Again, we don't know what those governing docs say, but a decision to continue on as timeshare  is likely something that has to be formally addressed and definitively  resolved well *before* the termination date actually arrives. Otherwise, merely being tenants in common without an extension having already been adopted by amendment to the condo docs *could* very well mean that *no one* has any use of or access to the property upon termination as a timeshare.


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## bbakernbay

Theo, you have summarized my situation and feelings perfectly.

I am trying to determine whether it may be financially beneficial to hold on and be one of a smaller and smaller proportion of owners who remain in good standing until the property is sold.  I have no doubt that will be the outcome.

I value the property at $4,000,000 based on 40 - 2 bedroom furnished units hopefully fetching $100,000 each.  They are in a residential neighbourhood with lots of building going on in the immediate area.

Even if legal and other fees eat up 50% of the value each unit should net $1,000.

If only 25% of the Owners remain in good standing I presume the return could be quadrupled. I have 4 Units.

I may be painting a too rosy picture but the buildings, property and furnishings do have value.


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## Panina

theo said:


> OP actually indicated *using* the four owned weeks each year.
> 
> Just the same, I am inclined to agree with your view that a 50% (and surely growing) delinquency rate is motivation to consider a "pay now and bail" deedback, but I'm also sure the OP may be wisely contemplating that he does not want to prematurely walk away from a potential payout in 3 years, if there should be one. I suspect that may be determined by value of the real estate. As will Rogers once said about land, "they're not making any more of it".


I owned a timeshare that closed without warning.  I was lucky. They offered for me to wait and see if they sell with no maintenance fees for the current year or deedback with a small fee. I think it was $199.  I gave it back, don’t want the headache, if it doesn’t sell I can still be responsible for mf, do not  care how much I “might” get.  It’s a year since I gave it back, they still have no deal to sell.

When I said “without use” I was thinking based on the financial condition it has a good chance of closing prior to the sunset happening.


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## theo

A question that comes to my mind (one which maybe cannot even be answered without knowing the actual content of the condo docs) is the legal / voting / potential payout status of *HOA-owned* weeks at the time of termination, if that's what ultimately occurs by default or inaction or willful choice.

It could be *assumed* (...always a very dangerous practice in legal detail matters) that the current willingness to allow short-money deedbacks *now* is somehow potentially beneficial to *someone *in the future.  After all, HOA owned weeks do not pay any maintenance fees, thereby further accelerating the financial decline --- so why be making it so very easy to turn remaining ownerships into still *more* non-paying weeks now? 

Or.... perhaps a "voting block" is being assembled now via "deedbacks", in order to garner sufficient numbers to dominate and prevail in future voting (*if* HOA owned weeks there even have any vote in the first place, which I just dunno).


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## Panina

theo said:


> A question that comes to my mind (one which maybe cannot even be answered without knowing the actual content of the condo docs) is the legal / voting / potential payout status of *HOA-owned* weeks at the time of termination, if that's what ultimately occurs by default or inaction or willful choice.
> 
> It could be *assumed* (...always a very dangerous practice in legal detail matters) that the current willingness to allow short-money deedbacks *now* is somehow potentially beneficial to *someone*.  After all, HOA owned weeks do not pay any maintenance fees, thereby further accelerating the financial decline --- so why be making it easy to turn ownerships into even more non-paying weeks now?  .
> 
> Or.... perhaps a "voting block" is being assembled now via "deedbacks", in order to garner sufficient numbers to dominate and prevail in future voting (*if* HOA owned weeks actually even have any vote in the first place, which I dunno; "termination aftermath" is well outside of my knowledge wheelhouse).


All could be so true but is keeping it worth the risk because of the motives of others? If greed is allowing the deedbacks, they are taking the chance it will backfire on them.


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## bbakernbay

Absolutely, I think that could be a very likely scenario in some locations, particularly in desirable on water view properties, or in fact anywhere there is a dollar to be made.

Hopefully some Tuggers with actual experience in this type of Sunset termination will chime in.

I certainly appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this subject.  I have a feeling it could be a Hot Topic in the next 5 years.


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## silentg

bbakernbay said:


> Absolutely, I think that could be a very likely scenario in some locations, particularly in desirable on water view properties, or in fact anywhere there is a dollar to be made.
> 
> Hopefully some Tuggers with actual experience in this type of Sunset termination will chime in.
> 
> I certainly appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this subject.  I have a feeling it could be a Hot Topic in the next 5 years.


Would you have to pay$350.00 for each week or one fee for all 4?


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## bbakernbay

The Manager said it wouldn’t be 4 @ $350 but some much lesser amount for weeks 2, 3 & 4 but he wasn’t specific.  We intend on using our 4 weeks in 2018 until we see how this settles out particularly if they are successful attracting long term rentals which brings several negative factors to the rest of us.

Also the proposed rental per month is about half of the equivalent of our MFees which rankles me and likely others but that is what the market is.  Better to get $1,500 income from 16 rental units than have no income.


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## bbakernbay

A very interesting read I found on another TUg BBS Post.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...24998/page-3&usg=AOvVaw1_N2FCyPT9UG9s3q2JpUk8


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## Talent312

BTW, even if they tried to try to keep the operation going after it's expiration...
Any "tenant in common" could sue for partition and force a judicial sale w-proceeds divided.

Ideally, the one(s) who want to keep the property would buy out the one who wants to leave.
But sometimes, that just cannot be done.
.


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## theo

Talent312 said:


> BTW, even they tried to try to keep the operation going after expiration...
> any "tenant in common" could sue for partition and force a judicial sale w-proceeds divided.



If "kept going" (by CC&R-specified owner majority vote to "extend" *before* the termination date arrives, amending the CC&R's termination clause and dates accordingly), it seems to me that the option for any individual "tenant in common" to independently sue for partition and forced sale would not exist, since no actual "tenants in common" would exist.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something here?


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## bizaro86

If the Governing docs are amended then it wouldn't convert to tenants in common, so there would be no tenants in common to sue for partition.


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## theo

bizaro86 said:


> If the Governing docs are amended then it wouldn't convert to tenants in common, so there would be no tenants in common to sue for partition.



Understood and agreed. Poor initial phrasing on my part, now corrected. Thanks. I  need another cup of coffee.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> A very interesting read I found on another TUg BBS Post.
> 
> https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwj76qG-4MnYAhWBaiYKHWB4B9AQFggqMAE&url=https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/timeshare-sunset-or-self-destruct-clause-2020-every-timeshare-owner-should-read.224998/page-3&usg=AOvVaw1_N2FCyPT9UG9s3q2JpUk8



Yes, I now remember that previous discussion. Thank you for resurrecting it.

One point I had tried to emphasize at that time (...as now) is that the underlying CC&R's (a.k.a. governing documents) are key to the whole "sunset" issue at any given individual property. People often want and seek "one size fits all" answers and insights, but that simplicity does not exist on this particular subject.

Depending on the underlying governing docs content, some places will *extend* upon "expiration", absent any overt intervening action. Others will *terminate* upon "expiration", absent any overt intervening action. Still other CC&R's address the options and details on "termination" very vaguely and poorly --- or not at all. To further complicate matters, majority vote requirements specified within some underlying CC&R's are often somewhere between very burdensome and statistically unattainable, if one is being honest and realistic.

In any case, examination and action long before actual "sunset" (termination) date is always wise and prudent. Even with the clock ticking down, today as we discuss this many FL HOA's / BoD's continue to just keep their heads stuck in the sand. Inertia, indecision and inaction may very well have unwelcome and unintended consequences in these matters.

I'm very glad that this issue has already been proactively tackled and resolved at the two early 1980's FL places where we still (...for now, anyhow) choose to own a few intervals (by voting in extensions and formal CC&R amendment) . I know of other nearby timeshare properties where inaction and / or denial seems to be the order of the day instead. 
This is definitely a situation where that old saying that "ignorance is bliss" truly does not apply.


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## bbakernbay

Thank you, I am getting my Documents out this afternoon and will report on what I find.


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## vacationtime1

bbakernbay said:


> *The Manager said it wouldn’t be 4 @ $350 but some much lesser amount for weeks 2, 3 & 4 but he wasn’t specific.  *We intend on using our 4 weeks in 2018 until we see how this settles out particularly if they are successful attracting long term rentals which brings several negative factors to the rest of us.
> 
> Also the proposed rental per month is about half of the equivalent of our MFees which rankles me and likely others but that is what the market is.  Better to get $1,500 income from 16 rental units than have no income.



This makes me _*very*_ suspicious of the Manager's motivation.

Shouldn't the Manager (i.e. the HOA) treat all weeks equally -- i.e. charge the same amount for each?  If the Manager is negotiating a group rate, it seems that the "buyer" of the four units is someone other than the HOA.


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## bbakernbay

I certainly think it is the HOA taking the Units back but he advised that his management firm does the transfer process and he indicated that if multiple weeks by one owner is being deeded back at the same time, there are some savings to be achieved, the specific amounts I still need to determine but I doubt I will do anything this year as MFees are known and we intend on using our 4 weeks.

It does concern me that there is a one person Board which is the Manager.

He did say any Owner who wants to sit on the Board is welcome to do so.


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## bizaro86

bbakernbay said:


> I certainly think it is the HOA taking the Units back but he advised that his management firm does the transfer process and he indicated that if multiple weeks by one owner is being deeded back at the same time, there are some savings to be achieved, the specific amounts I still need to determine but I doubt I will do anything this year as MFees are known and we intend on using our 4 weeks.
> 
> It does concern me that there is a one person Board which is the Manager.
> 
> He did say any Owner who wants to sit on the Board is welcome to do so.



I would volunteer for the board and see what happens after that. It would be some work, but then you'd know what was happening.

Also, if they find a bunch of excuses to turn you down, that would be good info about the managers motivations.


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## bbakernbay

I just checked my files and the Deedback fee for one unit is $295 not $350 as I mistakenly posted.

His firm has developed some form of expedited process that has been approved by the State of Florida that enables HOA’s to get this process done quicker and cheaper.  I forget the exact term he used to describe this process.

I am in the process of reading the lengthy document that we received on purchase.  I do see the words that we become tenants-in-Common until the first Saturday in the year 2021.

Since there is zero possibility of getting a quorum of Owners before that date it would seem that is all we can do now except if bankruptcy is declared.

I would consider volunteering for the Board but he really scared me when he advised that the other Board Members, who were non-owners and his business associates, all resigned when the Board received threatening letters from some owners after being advised of the true financial situation.  In addition, I live 1,500 miles away so that makes it difficult to properly participate.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> His firm has developed *some form of expedited process that has been approved by the State of Florida that enables HOA’s to get this process done quicker and cheaper.  I forget the exact term he used to describe this process.*



This reference was almost certainly to *non-judicial foreclosure*, adopted in some states to expedite and facilitate the process. That procedure is not an "invention" by any firm; it is instead a legislatively approved, expedited legal process of relatively recent vintage, now in practice in numerous states (...yes, including Florida).

Foreclosures aside however, I'd still frankly be curious (and dubious) in your situation regarding exactly *who* apparently wants "deedback" weeks --- and *why*. It would be very interesting to see the "grantee" name(s), assuming that "grantor"-signed quit claim deeds are an integral part of that voluntary "deedback for a fee" option and process.

Those now-departed Board members, reportedly themselves both non-owners *and* business associates of the current one man Board / manager, all reportedly resigning in the aftermath of some financial status disclosures, frankly gives me even more pause. I also really have to wonder how an independent (i.e., non-"chain") timeshare property ever somehow had a Board comprised of non-owners in the first place. I cannot even begin to fathom how that could have occurred. 

Btw, as a (maybe or maybe not irrelevant) aside, an interesting case study regarding an independent timeshare property "managed" by just a single person is the recent saga of Harbor Hill, located in Provincetown, MA, discussed at some length in these TUG forums during the past year or two. After not paying property taxes or Federal taxes (and / or assorted other bills) for quite some time, the place ultimately closed down. The property was purchased (for $8 miliion, well above its' actual market value, IMnsHO) by the town of Provincetown, to be used for middle income housing. Former (unsupervised)  Harbor Hill "sole manager" Donna L. Zoppi was (...finally) recently indicted. It remains to be seen what became of missing money there, reportedly somewhere in the ballpark of $2 million dollars.


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## Talent312

My post presumed that no action was taken to formally extend the timeshare.
Of course, if they did that, then there would be no tenants in common...
_just member-owners of an apparently failing timeshare.
._


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## bbakernbay

I Googled “Non-judicial disclosure Florida” and several articles appeared including this one:

*Non-judicial Foreclosures *
 April 1, 2015 Sharon Scott, RRP


Many of us remember when various states began adopting legislation to allow for the non-judicial foreclosure of timeshare realty. We all celebrated at the time, but later it became apparent that while HOAs could now regain inventory in cases where the owners were not paying their annual maintenance fees, they still needed to pay expensive fees to a lawyer to go through the paperwork. Large developers could perhaps handle the process more easily if they were in active sales and needed the inventory. However, the ‘little guy’ was out of luck.





Kevin Mattoni
We recently caught up with Kevin Mattoni, VP of Cunningham Property Management, who says they have created a solution. Along with Sharon Cunningham and Richard Cunningham, Mattoni operates a multi-site management company, Cunningham Property Management, based in Florida. “As most of our resorts are more than twenty years old, many of them were facing a possible crisis,” he says. “In many cases, aging owners were not paying their annual maintenance fees, a situation that was only exacerbated by the recent recession. Associations needed to get delinquent weeks back so they could resell them to fees-paying owners who would once again use and enjoy their vacation ownership property.”

This situation is what originally prompted the group to create Cunningham Asset Recovery Services LLC (CARS) by retaining an attorney who would provide a lower price when processing a larger number of cases. “We realized that we could gain even greater efficiencies if we were to broaden our scope to open an entity that would provide foreclosure services to other management companies, HOAs and developers. Presently, CARS is available to any condominium, owner association, developer or lender desiring non-judicial foreclosure services at extremely low costs.”

Since they officially launched CARS last year, Mattoni reports they have grown significantly. “We are now serving over 20 associations spread throughout Florida, and are in discussions with resorts in Nevada and South Carolina,” he says. “Plus, we are exploring expanding into Massachusetts, Colorado, Rhode Island, Maine and Vermont. We manage every step of the process from recording the lien and completing mandatory title searches to the final trustee sale and recording the trustee’s deed. Our services are available for every size resort, from small self-managed properties all the way to larger projects under developer-control. CARS’ step-by-step process assures clients of clear title qualifying for title insurance, including clearing title clouds relating to bankruptcy, divorce, death or owners who cannot be located.”

Mattoni and the Cunninghams have been in the property management business for over 30 years. As a matter of fact, Sharon Cunningham was appointed to Florida’s Regulatory Council of Community Association Managers by Governor Rick Scott. This was approved by the Florida State Senate after a full vetting of Sharon and the company.

“We are excited by the opportunities we have for further growth,” remarks Kevin. “We are currently working on our website,
www.timesharenonjudicialforeclosure.com, and have a number of meetings scheduled during the ARDA World convention.”


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## Maple_Leaf

I recently had the opportunity to take a winter beach week in South Florida off of someone's hands, with first use in 2019.  A quick check of the governing condo docs revealed that the timeshare arrangement expires in 2022, unless a meeting of a majority of interval owners 1-2 months prior extends the timeshare for 10 years with a majority vote.  After almost 40 years of deaths, divorces and bankruptcies granulating the ownership, good luck with finding an interested designated voting member for a majority of those intervals to establish quorum.


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## bbakernbay

I completely agree, there is no way they will ever get the Owners, if they can even find them, to vote to extend.

That raises the obvious question, Who gets to decide?

Does the HOA vote for those Owners in delinquency or do they need a “foreclosure” first?

Did you buy yours in anticipation of getting a return based on timeshare being sold off.

That is what I am trying to decide if that is worth holding on for another 3 years.

Hopefully we can get some advice from someone who has actually gone through this process.

Thanks for posting.


----------



## Maple_Leaf

bbakernbay said:


> I completely agree, there is no way they will ever get the Owners, if they can even find them, to vote to extend.
> 
> That raises the obvious question, Who gets to decide?
> 
> Does the HOA vote for those Owners in delinquency or do they need a “foreclosure” first?
> 
> Did you buy yours in anticipation of getting a return based on timeshare being sold off.
> 
> That is what I am trying to decide if that is worth holding on for another 3 years.
> 
> Hopefully we can get some advice from someone who has actually gone through this process.
> 
> Thanks for posting.



I didn't take it.  My situation was a bit different than yours. You were already in, considering getting out.  I was out, considering getting in. I thought the risk of a negative outcome was too great.


----------



## bbakernbay

I completely understand, that is one reason I started this thread so as to alert prospective purchasers that timeshares could very likely have an end date and beware of what the future may bring.  BTW, I now live in Kitchener, previously 40 years in North Bay.


----------



## Maple_Leaf

I found this pitch video from Timesharing Today about a small resort in North Carolina converting from a timesharing regime to whole ownership condos. I don't know anything about Lemonjuice Capital but they appear to present a roadmap for legacy resorts to move from a timeshare model to whole ownership condos with the prospect of realising some value for owners. It will be interesting to see what happens with the owners of the resort in the video.


----------



## pwrshift

I bought Marriott Manor Club many years ago and will have to dig out my papers as I think I remember that resort has some sort of arrangement that expires at some future date ... probably with Ford's Colony Golf Course .. it may only be the part where owners cease to get free golf rounds.

Brian


----------



## garyk01

bbakernbay said:


> Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.
> 
> Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.
> 
> The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.
> 
> The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.
> 
> Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.
> 
> I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.
> 
> The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.
> 
> The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.
> 
> Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds.  At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.
> 
> I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.
> 
> By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.
> 
> Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions.  Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.


----------



## Panina

Maple_Leaf said:


> I found this pitch video from Timesharing Today about a small resort in North Carolina converting from a timesharing regime to whole ownership condos. I don't know anything about Lemonjuice Capital but they appear to present a roadmap for legacy resorts to move from a timeshare model to whole ownership condos with the prospect of realising some value for owners. It will be interesting to see what happens with the owners of the resort in the video.



Interesting.  The board and majority of owners allowed a takeover from Lemonjuice.  I hope all the owners who voted no accept this and move on as the risk of not is really unknown.


----------



## garyk01

I actually had this happen to myself at a florida timeshare . I also had this and the manager said let us sell off the resort to a developer and you will get a share of the proceeds. Well I paid about $2000 to buy into the resort . I did the math and based on what they said I should get my money back. Hover by the time I paid all the courier fees, notary fees, the management costs, legal fees, transfer fees, etc. I ended up with a cheque for $132 .97 . That did not ever cover my costs to sell the place. I lost about $1000.00 . Best option deed it back now for the small fee and wash your hands of it. AS the big wigs will get all the gravy and you get basically nothing anyways.


----------



## theo

Every resort situation is different in regard to its' current infrastructure condition, owner base,  financial health --- not to mention the resort management's competence, agenda(s) and honesty.

We own intervals at two separate older, independent, non "chain" timeshares in coastal SW FL. In both instances, governing docs reflected a "sunset" date 40 years after (early 1980's) construction, making 2022 the "sunset" year.

In both instances, the BOD / HOA  was proactive, seeking (more than a year ago now) a majority vote to "extend" another 10 years beyond the CC&R sunset date. Wisely, they provided almost a full year for owners to vote, in order to acquire enough votes to constitute the majority required by the governing docs. In both cases, they got the votes and the right to amend the CC&R's --- and did exactly that.

My intended point is that overt action needs to be proactively undertaken long (i.e., several years) *in advance* of the CC&R-identified sunset date. Otherwise, a last minute (and likely unsuccessful) "Chinese fire drill" is almost guaranteed. I strongly suspect that a fair number of early 1980's-built timeshare resorts in Florida with 40 year CC&R "sunset" clauses have BOD's / HOA's with their heads currently in the sand (...or perhaps elsewhere), passively and inevitably headed straight toward that completely avoidable last minute "Chinese fire drill".


----------



## Panina

theo said:


> Every resort situation (i.e., infrastructure condition, owner composition and financial health) is different.
> 
> We own intervals at two separate older, independent, non "chain" timeshares in coastal SW FL. In both instances, governing docs reflected a "sunset" date 40 years after (early 1980's) construction, making 2022 the "sunset" year.
> 
> In both instances, the BOD / HOA  was proactive, seeking (more than a year ago now) a majority vote to "extend" another 10 years beyond the CC&R sunset date. Wisely, they provided almost a full year for owners to vote, in order to acquire enough votes to constitute the majority required by the governing docs. In both cases, they got the votes and the right to amend the CC&R's --- and did exactly that.
> 
> My intended point is that overt action needs to be proactively undertaken long (i.e., several years) *in advance* of the CC&R-identified sunset date. Otherwise, a last minute (and likely unsuccessful) "Chinese fire drill" is almost guaranteed. I suspect that a fair number of early 1980's-built timeshare resorts have BOD's with their heads in the sand (...or perhaps elsewhere), passively but inexorably headed toward that completely avoidable last minute "Chinese fire drill".


Well run resorts  that have proactive board members do what is required to extend .  I own a few with the clause and the association did what needed to be done.


----------



## bbakernbay

One further question on Sunset situation.

If the majority of Owners vote to extend the timeshare for 10 years, or whatever term, does that obligate every Owner to continue paying their Maintenance Fees after the Sunset Date, even though they voted not to extend.


----------



## theo

bbakernbay said:


> One further question on Sunset situation.
> 
> If the majority of Owners vote to extend the timeshare for 10 years, or whatever term, does that obligate every Owner to continue paying their Maintenance Fees after the Sunset Date, even though they voted not to extend.



Yes. If a sufficient voting majority is obtained to amend the "Termination" section language in the underlying CC&R's, *all* owners are then collectively bound by that decision and the (newly amended) governing docs.

Frankly, the biggest obstacle is often getting a *sufficient percentage* *of total votes* at all, as often (but not always) clearly specified within the underlying governing resort docs. If, for example, the docs require 80% of owners to vote in order to constitute a required minimum total, that high hurdle is not easily jumped.

HOA-owned weeks *should* have *no* voting status at all (which is precisely why I previously questioned exactly *who* the new "grantee(s)" might be in the strange "one-man-band" deedback processing situation you had referenced previously.


----------



## bbakernbay

Theo, thank you very much for your prompt and thorough reply which I very much appreciated.  Given that HOA owned weeks have no voting status and that Owners in default should have no vote (is that a correct assumption?) then there might not be many of the 2040 week owners eligible to vote.

I am wondering whether the 80% (or whatever % is stipulated) is calculated based upon the total 2040 Owners or just those remaining in good standing.

I contacted our Manager/President/Sole Director a few days ago asking whether we would hear anything about what is likely to happen before the MFees are due on February 28th and he said there are some legal issues the lawyers are trying to sort out.  I have asked that paying Owners be given some perks in order to encourage them to remain and pay the substantially increased MFees for 2018.  He indicated that he would try to do that.

As far as who the new Grantee is that is unknown, I can only presume the Manager/President but who knows.

Can an Owner demand an accounting of the number of Owners that are currently in good standing, we were told that it is around 50% but I expect that to plummet this year.  If I am not present at the upcoming AGM, can I rightfully pose questions by email or letter?


----------



## theo

bbakernbay said:


> ...Owners in default should have no vote (is that a correct assumption?) then there might not be many of the 2040 week owners eligible to vote.



Strangely enough, owners of record (whether or not current on maintenance fees) may indeed vote.
Whether or not current on maintenance fees, they are lawful owners of record until foreclosure (or "deedback") occurs.
Their votes count, unlike HOA-owned weeks, which have no vote **if** appropriately deeded back *to the resort HOA* (not  to some *other* entity or individual(s) instead; a possibility which *might* be a concern / issue in the situation discussed here).



> I contacted our Manager/President/Sole Director a few days ago asking whether we would hear anything about what is likely to happen before the MFees are due on February 28th and he said there are some legal issues the lawyers are trying to sort out. <snip>
> 
> As far as who the *new Grantee* is that *is* *unknown*, I can only presume the Manager/President but who knows.



Have you pointedly asked this "deedback grantee identity" question directly of the manager / President / deedback handler?
Deeds are a matter of retrievable *public record* and *someone* is (hopefully) officially recording all those "deedbacks".
It *should* only be the resort HOA (*not* any individual(s) or company) named as grantee in any and all such "deedbacks".
Exactly whose interests this "Lone Ranger" manager / President / deed handler truly represents is entirely unclear to me.

The "some legal issues" answer you received seems a bit vague and fuzzy, coming from the one person who knows (or *should* know --- and share) exactly what those "issues" might be, with payment deadline date less than three weeks away. Seems a bit disingenuous, but perhaps that fuzzy response was a face-saving alternative to admitting "I have no idea".
By the way, where are the funds coming from to pay "the lawyers" mentioned by the manager / President / deed handler?
Who exactly does legal counsel actually represent there? Who retained said counsel in the first place --- and why? 



> Can an Owner demand an accounting of the number of Owners that are currently in good standing, we were told that it is around 50% but I expect that to plummet this year.  If I am not present at the upcoming AGM, can I rightfully pose questions by email or letter?



Many independent (i.e., non-"chain") resort HOA's *voluntarily report* their current delinquency rate, often routinely identifying same in periodic resort newsletters, openly comparing the current delinquency rate to that of prior year(s).
There is *no* good reason that you as an owner should not be readily provided with that information, regardless of the means by which you choose to request it and regardless of whether or not you are physically present on site when doing so.
Open identification of individual delinquent owners by name would *not* be  appropriate or necessary however.

That "one man band" manager / President / "deedback handler" arrangement truly gives me pause; it has a faint but foul aroma, IMnsHO. Maybe I'm being overly suspicious, but I certainly get *no* warm and fuzzy feeling from that very strange "arrangement" and / or the uninformative answers coming from the "Lone Ranger" poohbah on site. That situation smells. The potential for impropriety seems almost boundless, starting with (currently unknown) grantee name(s) on "deedbacks".


----------



## bbakernbay

We received an offer from our resort today by which any Owner who is current with their 2018 can return their deed to the HOA and become an owner in 2019 of a 2 bedroom unit about 15 miles away near Disney for a cost of $395 to look after the paperwork.  Apparently a better resort with lower maintenance fees that is looking to increase their roster of Owners who will pay their MFees.

It looks like the writing is on the wall that our resort will be finding another use in the next few years or maybe sooner.

I doubt whether we will take this option based upon our age and the fact cheaper rentals are available.

I am still awaiting to hear what they may offer to existing owners who choose to stay and pay the substantially increased MFees.


----------



## tschwa2

Maple_Leaf said:


> I found this pitch video from Timesharing Today about a small resort in North Carolina converting from a timesharing regime to whole ownership condos. I don't know anything about Lemonjuice Capital but they appear to present a roadmap for legacy resorts to move from a timeshare model to whole ownership condos with the prospect of realising some value for owners. It will be interesting to see what happens with the owners of the resort in the video.



I have some experience with Lemonjuice biz.  They advertise on the timeshares wanted section of TUG or at least have in the past for prime Ocean City MD weeks and pay decently for them. 

My guess is the resort they took over had owners clamoring to get out.  It doesn't look bad but I imagine even high season owners would have had difficulty renting out their unit to cover their MF's and off season weeks could probably be had for less than half of MF's through RCI's last calls and other similar resorts in the area probably go for half the MF's during off season so if any owners still wanted to enjoy the area they could with no commitment and half the cost paid only when they wanted to stay.

I don't think it would work in a TS with more than 30-40 units and ideally less.  Digging up the deeded owners for non productive weeks would be a killer.


----------



## Egret1986

tschwa2 said:


> I have some experience with Lemonjuice biz.  They advertise on the timeshares wanted section of TUG or at least have in the past for prime Ocean City MD weeks and pay decently for them.



Similar experience...paid my asking prices for a couple of Ocean City weeks and last year for an Outer Banks, NC week.  I had some conversation with the principle regarding his business and he was interested in my thoughts on Barrier Island Station in Duck, NC.  It is a resort that is also undertaking the task of gathering the required votes for an upcoming sunset clause.  He asked if I was interested in some part-time work with his company.  Too many obligations already to consider doing anything else. 

I didn't realize that they advertised on TUG.


----------



## bbakernbay

With Global Warming and rising oceans it might be a short term investment that goes underwater.


----------



## bbakernbay

Just heard from our timeshare that they have made an arrangement with a nearby timeshare resort to give any of our Owners who wish to depart a 2 bedroom unit at their resort in order to increase their percentage of paying Owners.

This requires a payment of $395 to look after the deeds.  Advised that MFees at other timeshare are lower than we are paying in 2018.

This offer is entirely optional.

Looks like the writing is on the wall but still not clear as to what happens over next 3 years and thereafter.


----------



## cerralee

tschwa2 said:


> I have some experience with Lemonjuice biz.  They advertise on the timeshares wanted section of TUG or at least have in the past for prime Ocean City MD weeks and pay decently for them.
> 
> My guess is the resort they took over had owners clamoring to get out.  It doesn't look bad but I imagine even high season owners would have had difficulty renting out their unit to cover their MF's and off season weeks could probably be had for less than half of MF's through RCI's last calls and other similar resorts in the area probably go for half the MF's during off season so if any owners still wanted to enjoy the area they could with no commitment and half the cost paid only when they wanted to stay.
> 
> I don't think it would work in a TS with more than 30-40 units and ideally less.  Digging up the deeded owners for non productive weeks would be a killer.



I owned at the Ocean City resort that you are referring to.  RCI dropped this resort several years ago and there were no more last calls in this particular resort.  You could still trade in to other OC resorts.  I noticed that when units went up for sale that the same person was buying them. In the end lemonjuice or Kravosky held a lot of the units that were disposed of.  I thought about it and came to the conclusion that someone out there had a plan.  If he was investing in the resort there must be some underlying value in the units and I was going to hold tight and go along for the ride.
We were offered the option to deed our units back to the HOA for a fee.  Many did.  In the end the units went on the auction block and the proceeds were divided up between the remaining owners.  I feel the process was fair.  I no longer had the timeshare fees hanging over my head, and if I wanted to vacation in OC I had enough cash to do so.  My only regret was not having a crystal ball to buy a few more of the units before the liquidation.  I did have a chance as they had a public auction at the resort during one of my stays where they "auctioned" off three of the units. The HOA placed a low bid on them and there were only 3 people in attendance. Kravosky, the manager of the units and me.
I was glad that lemonjuice entered the picture.  He knew how to dispose of a decaying timeshare complex where previous boards could not come up with a solution of an aging membership and non-paying owners.  Yes, I am sure he came out on the cash plus positive side of things-but so did the owners that that did not bail.


----------



## tschwa2

He wasn't just buying at Waves.  His ad was for all OC resorts except Coconut Mallory.  He bought Ocean Time, Boardwalk One, and Bay Club from me.


----------



## theo

bbakernbay said:


> Just heard from our timeshare that they have made an arrangement with a nearby timeshare resort to give any of our Owners who wish to depart a 2 bedroom unit at their resort in order to increase their percentage of paying Owners.
> 
> This requires a payment of $395 to look after the deeds.  Advised that MFees at other timeshare are lower than we are paying in 2018.
> 
> This offer is entirely optional.
> 
> Looks like the writing is on the wall but still not clear as to what happens over next 3 years and thereafter.



...identity of the “deedback” grantee(s) at your resort is *also* still not clear, the answer to which relates very directly to the voting percentages and numbers required for (and addressing the future fate of) your resort.


----------



## bbakernbay

I can only presume that it is the timeshare HOA but I have no way of knowing positively.


----------



## theo

bbakernbay said:


> I can only presume that it is the timeshare HOA but I have no way of knowing positively.



With all due respect, I personally would presume _*nothing*_ in the very strange circumstances apparently at issue here, with a "one man band" manager / Board / President / deedback processor apparently operating single handedly on site ---   and all other previous Board members having disappeared into thin air.

In post #48 of this thread, I pointed out that deeds are a matter of public record. Accordingly, recent deedbacks should be easily found online in County official records **if** the HOA is, in fact, the grantee. I suggested (and I respectfully do so once again) that you pointedly ask the manager / President exactly who is named as grantee(s) on all of those incoming deedbacks, if you cannot find the deeds online. If the resort  Association is indeed the "grantee", that's fine and dandy and appropriate. _*However*_, if the grantee is something or someone else, it is possible that someone is quietly assembling a powerful voting block in order to influence or determine future outcomes there.
Just sayin'...


----------



## bbakernbay

Excellent advice, thank you.  

I just accessed the excellent County website and searched very quickly and found that over the past 90 days there were 51 deeds transferred to our Condominium Association by way of QuitClaims at a value $10.

I feel reassured by this initial finding and I will look at successive periods of time throughout 2017.


----------



## Talent312

The $10 number is a mere formality used in deeds... a placeholder.
The actual $$ amount depends on the doc stamp tax paid which is often noted in margins.



bbakernbay said:


> With Global Warming and rising oceans, it might be a short term investment that goes underwater.



At the risk of starting something, I'll just say that I'm in favor of global warming.
My house is in the middle of Florida, and I'd like to be closer to the water.  
<satire>


----------



## Hey lady

bbakernbay said:


> Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.
> 
> Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.
> 
> The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.
> 
> The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.
> 
> Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.
> 
> I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.
> 
> The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.
> 
> The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.
> 
> Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds.  At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.
> 
> I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.
> 
> By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.
> 
> Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions.  Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.




You should be so luck to just pay $350 to get out. Our timeshare owner, in Canada, wanted to reduce the timeshare resort and sell off some buildings as individual condos. We got an invoice for $4000 per week to renovate the unit or $4000 to cancel our contract. They proved they were not in the timeshare business but in the cancelling of contracts business.


----------



## bbakernbay

Then what happened?  Did the Owners presumably walk away and they then foreclosed and then the developer terminated the timeshare?  Which area was that in Canada, BC or Ontario?


----------



## silentg

If you have a RTU on 40 year lease, why do you have to pay anything? Can’t you just wait the 3 years til the contract is up then just walk away? We did that with one of our timeshares. When the lease was up we said goodbye.We had our use and enjoyed it while it lasted.  Just a thought?
Silentg


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## bbakernbay

We are pretty much decided that we will not pay the substantially increased MFs on our weeks for 2018 nor the few years remaining.  We have been loyal owners for over 25 years and   enjoy the resort but we can take advantage of cheaper prices using Extra Vacations or using our points inside 45 days as the resort is never full during the times we choose to go to Florida.

In addition, I am reluctant to pay the MFees in advance and possibly show up and the place may be padlocked.  Charging a long term renter at 50% rate of our MFee is also very aggravating.

We won’t be paying the $300 fee to sign it back either.  I would be interested to know how many owners default now given that it was near 50% before the MFees increased substantially in 2018 to cover high delinquency.  

Sad situation for all concerned including the long term resort employees but one likely repeating itself in many other locations.


----------



## WackyLucy

silentg said:


> If you have a RTU on 40 year lease, why do you have to pay anything? Can’t you just wait the 3 years til the contract is up then just walk away?



OP's matter is clearly not a RTU contract. It is instead a deeded ownership at a place which, like many Florida timeshare properties built in the 1980's, had a 40 year time period identified within its' governing condo documents for existence as a timeshare property. This is not at all the same as a RTU contract situation.

Personally, I would have chosen to pay the $300 for a clean and easy deedback rather than be foreclosed upon later, but OP has apparently made a different decision.


----------



## silentg

I have one of those too. A Cape Cod week. They are voting to extend the timeshares. Have to see what everyone wants to do. Nice place. I sent my proxy already.
Silentg


----------



## Teresa

This is what happened in Apple Valley (Ohio) -see quote below.    I'm not sure the fee was $199 - I think it was under $50 for the recording of the deed (which they prepared).   Yes - I think 'someone' is going to do well when the resort actually gets sold as a 'property' (not a timeshare property).   I considered 'holding on' - but for what?   Just keep paying m/fs without benefit for a number of years until it all gets sorted out?  And 'paranoid me' feels that those orchestrating this whole thing will find a way to squeeze me out anyway.  Life is too short for me to 'hope' that it would work out for ME and mine.

I was going to give it away anyway.   Had already given several/many away (using craigslist).   Had another 2/2 in New Smyrna (Daytona) that I had tried to give away on craigslist.   Prepared the deed.   'Buyer' (but no money) got spooked and accused me of trying to scam her because a friend of hers did a search of the Florida records and saw that I had transferred a lot of timeshares.   I asked her how I was scamming her if I didn't ask her for any money (I was going to pay the transfer fee even)?   I wasn't going to force her to take it so I kept it.   Fast forward two years - I decided to list the timeshare on the resort's website for $2K and got a call about a month later.   Full price offer - they'll prepare the deed.  Some company.  Sounded fishy to me but they didn't ask me for any money so I said, 'sure'.  I thought that was the end of it.  Two weeks later I got a check and a deed.  Cashed the check. Waited two weeks for it to clear (it was on a US bank).   No problem.   Signed the deed and sent it.

Found out the company was trying to buy the whole place somehow to convert it.   I was one of only a few owners trying to sell (most ads were for renting).   At no time did another owner offer to buy it from me.  I had mentioned in previous years to management that I would give it to them.  I had offered it to other owners for 'really cheap' (or free).  Nothing came of that.

There is actually a company out there that is doing this sort of thing with smaller, older resorts.   Trying to allow remaining owners to cash out so it can be repurposed.   Will someone make money?  Yep.   Let's use my unit as an example.    Keep it for another 4 years while they acquire other units in order to get voting majority.   4 years of mfs would be about $3500 (assuming only small increases each year).   I'd need to recoup $5500 from a sale to get where I am now (with $2K now and no mfs for 4 years).   To get that the unit would have to sell for     $275K after expenses (I used 50 weeks as a multiplier).   I think I'm better off doing what I did.

Regarding OP situation - I would pay the money (maybe negotiate a lower fee per unit??) and be done.   But that's me.   Timeshares served me very well in the past.   Our kids are grown now and we're not as travel-active as we once were.  Trying to simplify.

Good luck with whatever you do.



Panina said:


> I owned a timeshare that closed without warning.  I was lucky. They offered for me to wait and see if they sell with no maintenance fees for the current year or deedback with a small fee. I think it was $199.  I gave it back, don’t want the headache, if it doesn’t sell I can still be responsible for mf, do not  care how much I “might” get.  It’s a year since I gave it back, they still have no deal to sell.
> 
> When I said “without use” I was thinking based on the financial condition it has a good chance of closing prior to the sunset happening.


----------



## bbakernbay

Teresa

Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful reply.  I have exactly the same feelings as you have experienced that some individual or group will capitalize on the situation and end up with everything for a flip to residential rental property.  Paying MFees over the next 3-4 years of uncertainty seems fruitless in order to reap some payback after all ‘costs’ are paid.

Last week, I have asked the Property Manager for a deal on the Deed Back costs or use of a vacant week in lieu and I am still awaiting a reply.

I live in Canada so I don’t know whether foreclosure has much of a credit or legal implication.

If they already have 50% delinquency then it would appear they are not going after non-paying owners.


----------



## bbakernbay

We received another letter from our Resort advising that due to diminishing revenues they are now converting another block of timeshares into long term rentals.

This block of 4 Units is the one where our 4 weeks are deeded and in our opinion is the preferred block as it overlooks a large lake, the only such block that has this scenic view.

They have indicated that owners of these units will be relocated to the remaining blocks of units that have not yet been converted to long term rentals.

I am not a lawyer but I think that this would invalidate our contract as we are unable to use the units we own.

Anyone care to offer an opinion on this circumstance.


----------



## bluehende

bbakernbay said:


> We received another letter from our Resort advising that due to diminishing revenues they are now converting another block of timeshares into long term rentals.
> 
> This block of 4 Units is the one where our 4 weeks are deeded and in our opinion is the preferred block as it overlooks a large lake, the only such block that has this scenic view.
> 
> They have indicated that owners of these units will be relocated to the remaining blocks of units that have not yet been converted to long term rentals.
> 
> I am not a lawyer but I think that this would invalidate our contract as we are unable to use the units we own.
> 
> Anyone care to offer an opinion on this circumstance.



I also am not a lawyer but.......  I would send them a very official letter stating you do not agree with the move, but would be happy to sell them the units.


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> We received another letter from our Resort advising that due to diminishing revenues they are now converting another block of timeshares into long term rentals.
> 
> This block of 4 Units is the one where our 4 weeks are deeded and in our opinion is the preferred block as it overlooks a large lake, the only such block that has this scenic view.
> 
> They have indicated that owners of these units will be relocated to the remaining blocks of units that have not yet been converted to long term rentals.
> 
> I am not a lawyer but I think that this would invalidate our contract as we are unable to use the units we own.
> 
> Anyone care to offer an opinion on this circumstance.



Everything you have described to date about that entire operation frankly seems quite shaky to me. That said, **if**you have a recorded deed for specific fixed units / weeks, I fail to see how the resort could unilaterally (or lawfully) ignore officially recorded legal instruments identifying your ownership of some very specific pieces of real estate.

I assume that you don't want to incur any legal costs to fight (or exit) this smelly mess. I'd suggest sending correspondence making it clear that you do not believe they have any legal right to "switch" you into a different building / unit ownership other than that which is plainly reflected on your recorded deeds. Also make it clear that you have *no* intentions of accepting involuntary ownership of *any* arbitrarily assigned "alternative" units or weeks. Bear in mind that grantee *acceptance* is a fundamental legal requirement for any deed to have validity; you definitely have some leverage here.

Tell them (in writing) that they can willingly absorb any any all costs for preparing and processing and recording quit claim deed of your existing weeks back to the resort HOA, but that you have *no* interest in accepting *any* other units / weeks. You want "out" --- not "different units". *You* are in the driver's seat here, not them. You reportedly possess valid deeds that they apparently now want, but it also seems evident that there is no intent (or money) to actually *buy* your weeks. Negotiate a no cost exit and just get *out* of that mess.

You asked for opinions. That's mine, for whatever it may be worth. Good luck.


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## bbakernbay

Well, the saga continues.

We chose not to pay our 4 weeks of 2018 MF’s and did not pay any fees to deed the units back.  We never received any further invoices or communications from the HOA.

Although the RCI recent reviews from exchangers have been mostly very negative we decided to look into staying there again in November for 2 weeks as there was a tremendous RCI sale about 2 months ago and the rental rate was about 25% of the cost of a week’s MF so not much risk in our mind but we were still somewhat concerned about what we would find.

We arrived yesterday and were given a unit that is quite acceptable, the grounds and pool are equal or better than previous.

It appears that more unit blocks are being rented out, apparently on a one year minimum, either furnished or unfurnished.  There are only 3 blocks out of 9 left for timeshare owners or exchangers or short term rentals.

The “residential” units look no different than the other units as the rules look to be strictly enforced. Some of our fears appear not to have materialized but time will tell. I haven’t talked to the Manager about their financial status but it certainly looks like their plan of generating a solid income flow appears to be successful.

Someone mentioned that MFees are scheduled to go up substantially next year so I can certainly foresee the remaining owners bailing out before sunset clause kicks in.  I foresee someone buying the property as a solid investment with a significant monthly cash flow.

We likely will return in 2019 if we can get a killer RCI deal again.


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## bbakernbay

Didn’t get the ‘Killer Deal’ that we had last year through RCI but we are back again in April 2019 for 2 weeks paying $89 per night plus taxes.  Another 6 room block has been converted to long term rentals.  There is now only one block of 4 units left for timeshare owners/exchangers or short term rentals like we are doing this time.  I haven’t heard what the 2019 Maintenance Fees are but I can’t imagine anyone is paying their MFees now.  Someone is going to bid on this complex of 68 units and and get a real bargain with a great cash flow and minimal risk.


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## amycurl

This is a fascinating saga to read, bbakernbay, and I want to thank you for keeping it updated as you continue to monitor the situation and visit the resort. Seems like everything worked out okay in the end.


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## bogey21

A number of years ago I owned a Week at (I think the name was) Emerald Seas in Deerfield Beach, FL which had a sunset clause.  It was right on the beach and very likely  the underlying land was worth millions.  Although those managing the property told me that the plan was to sell and distribute the proceeds to Owners when it sunset I sold my Week anyway.  Three reasons (1) there was no certainty that would be the outcome; (2) I would have had to pay MFs for years to find out; and (3) who knew if some zoning issue might depreciate the value of the underlying land...

George


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## bbakernbay

I don’t know if I will ever find out how this Sunsetting will work out.  Because the Maintenance Fees have skyrocketed with so many delinquencies it is hard to imagine how many Owners are in good standing and would be around to benefit from the payout upon liquidation.


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## bbakernbay

I just heard that the MFees have now I increased to an astronomical $1,300 per week.  The 4 remaining units will be held for timeshare owners/exchangers until sunset in 2021.


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## TheTimeTraveler

bbakernbay said:


> I just heard that the MFees have now I increased to an astronomical $1,300 per week.  The 4 remaining units will be held for timeshare owners/exchangers until sunset in 2021.





And in 2021 there may be a very large pay out for those few remaining owners........




.


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## bbakernbay

I am wondering how the payout is calculated.  Say there is 70 units x 52 weeks = 3,640 owner weeks but assuming only 5% or 182 owner weeks are fully paid up and in good standing, do they get the full net proceeds?  Say the 70 units sell for $50,000 each or $3,500,000 and outstanding liabilities and costs are $700,000 for a net of $2,800,000 then each of owner weeks gets $15,000 or thereabouts.  The 70 units are each bringing in $1,300 in rent per month.


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## bbakernbay

It just dawned on me that if the Timeshare is not renewed by the Owners at the end of the 40 year sunset period, and in our case it won’t be, then do the existing Owners in good standing actually participate in a liquidation payout.

Has anybody have any experience in what happens when a timeshare is not rolled over?


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## OldGuy

Take a look at the Apple Valley Resort thread.

Sure are a lot of discussions like this nowadays.


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## bbakernbay

The End is near.  We received an email yesterday saying that they intend on starting foreclosure proceedings or that we could Deed back our 4 weeks for a fee of $295.  I advised that I would be willing to sign the paperwork to Deed back but in principle I am not paying $295 to benefit them considering they effectively expropriated our 4 weeks of deeded unit(s) so they could rent them out to permanent residents.  We have not paid the exorbitant MFees for last 2 years.

The Manager said that she wasn’t authorized to waive the fee but to write a letter explaining our position and she would pass it up the line.

I still feel somebody in the ‘know’ is going to steal this income property for cents on the dollar.  Hopefully Florida law provides some fair public notice and auction.

In theory, if there is only 10 paid up owner weeks out of 2,000+ weeks, do they get to split the net proceeds?

The resort is Lago Vista at Buenaventura Lakes in Kissimmee.  The sunset is 2020.

Hopefully others with experience in these situations will chime in as I suspect that Lago Vista at BVL will not be the only timeshare going through this windup.


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## bbakernbay

We received notice today that another timeshare we own in Palm Beach is about to sunset and the Board of Directors will soon be deciding as to how to wrap it up by either selling for redevelopment or converting each unit to a fully owned condominium.  Apparently too many owners are becoming delinquent in the non-prime weeks.  Looks for sure we can utilize our 2020 week but beyond that will take time to see what direction is taken.  Looks like this story will be repeating itself as many 40 year Florida timeshares sunset.


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## bbakernbay

WeEden11. I presume you are referring to Lago Vista at BVL.  I haven’t received any written communication from LV@BVL for several years now but I tried to rent a unit for several weeks but their asking price was too high and we made other plans.  Our family had many enjoyable times there in the past 25-30 years but realize times change.  My only concern is someone is going to scoop that property up cheap and have a great cash flow and the owners get nothing because they squeezed everybody out.


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## TheTimeTraveler

bbakernbay said:


> We received notice today that another timeshare we own in Palm Beach is about to sunset and the Board of Directors will soon be deciding as to how to wrap it up by either selling for redevelopment or converting each unit to a fully owned condominium.  Apparently too many owners are becoming delinquent in the non-prime weeks.  Looks for sure we can utilize our 2020 week but beyond that will take time to see what direction is taken.  Looks like this story will be repeating itself as many 40 year Florida timeshares sunset.




Which Timeshare property in Palm Beach are you referring to?




.


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## bbakernbay

RCI #0616, PBR&BC


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## theo

bbakernbay said:


> The End is near.  We received an email yesterday saying that they intend on starting foreclosure proceedings or that we could Deed back our 4 weeks for a fee of $295.  I advised that I would be willing to sign the paperwork to Deed back but in principle I am not paying $295 to benefit them considering they effectively expropriated our 4 weeks of deeded unit(s) so they could rent them out to permanent residents.  We have not paid the exorbitant MFees for last 2 years.



Florida being a non-judicial foreclosure state, costs and time and effort to foreclose are minimal. I would surely let them go right ahead and foreclose, if in your shoes. *Paying* them $300 per owned week to take (4) deeds back (at an operation which is plainly *already* "circling the drain") is nothing short of an insulting slap right across the face, in my personal opinion.


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## bbakernbay

Just received a phone call from our timeshare asking that we sign and return Waiver form that is apparently being sent to all 1,500 week owners.  Sale process is underway and she said that several offers have already been submitted.

We only paid $1 for it on eBay so it will be interesting to see what each owner receives after everything is wrapped up.


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## bbakernbay

We never heard anything further after we said we weren’t paying any fees for deeding back nor were we paying any further MFees.

I need to check to see whether it still has RCI affiliation which I seriously doubt as there were only 4 units left for timeshare owners or exchangers.

our Palm Beach timeshare sunsetted and owners voted at AGM not to extend so property likely to be sold at some point, possibly in 2021.


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## bbakernbay

Lago Vista at Buenaventura Lakes #3026 no longer shows up on RCI search of Kissimmee, FL


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