# United Air diverts flight after legroom fight [merged]



## Ken555

Yes, flying the friendly skies just became more fun.

Legroom fight diverts flight
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/travel/united-flight-knee-defender/index.html


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## vacationhopeful

I saw this reported on the 7AM Morning News (CBS). This provides MORE info - as this was Economy Plus section - I guess both parties felt they had PAID big bucks for the extra 5 inches of leg room.

Getting thrown off the place in Chicago must have made their DAY .. guess they were both LATE to their PHX appointments.

It was also NOT reported at 7AM that the airline DOES NOT allow the device to block seat reclining on their flights. How did TSA miss such a "weapon":ignore:

Additional question - think they will be charged for the costs in diverting the flight? Landing fees, fuel, overtime, missed connections, missed meetings .... Plus the civil suits between these 2 adults...


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## am1

vacationhopeful said:


> .
> 
> It was also NOT reported at 7AM that the airline DOES NOT allow the device to block seat reclining on their flights. How did TSA miss such a "weapon":ignore:



The device is not illegal.  But United does not allow the use of it.  Its a tough situation for the initial person being offended but throwing a cup of water is not the right answer.  

Forcing them to pay for the diverting of the flight may discourage others from acting the same way.


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## optimist

Such an overreaction to divert the plane...If they can't handle an argument between two passengers, how will they handle a real emergency?


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## Passepartout

It was reported that NO U.S. airline allows the use of these gadgets. And from an interview I heard today with it's inventor, it's labeled as such, along with the admonition to obey instructions from the flight crew.

If I'd missed a connection (or a day's vacation!) due to the shenanigans of these folks, I'd applaud whatever punishment the airline levies to them, and if TSA tags them for additional screening henceforth, all the better.

I hate it when someone in front of me reclines their seat to the maximum as soon as we are airborne, and leaves it reclined until landing. If one needs it reclined to get some rest, fine, but put the seat upright if you are awake, reading, doing the puzzle or whatever.

My $.02 worth. 

Jim


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## dougp26364

In standard economy, there's just not enough room, even when a seat isn't reclined. I typically pay the extra for the plus seating if a flight is much over 2 hours, just because I always get behind someone who wants to recline their seat. I don't begrudge them the space but it can make for a long flight if you're trying to watch a movie. To that end tablets are a better choice than a laptop. I've found using a laptop on todays flights is an exercise in futility.

Airlines aren't much more than buses with wings. They're a mode of transportation that gets you from point A to point B in a few hours vs driving for a day (or longer). It's become expensive enough and inconvenient enough that we've started vacationing closer to home. I'd rather drive 10 hours than get kill 5 or 6 hours at the airport, going through TSA and fighting for space on a plane.


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## Beaglemom3

dougp26364 said:


> I'd rather drive 10 hours than get kill 5 or 6 hours at the airport, going through TSA and fighting for space on a plane.



  +1.

    I recently had business in Portsmouth-Norfolk, Va.

    There are no non-stops to there from Bos/MHT/PVD. It would have taken 9 hours  flying & layover times in two puddle jumpers. This does not include the 1.5 hours early arrival for check-in at TSA.

    I opted for Amtrak business class. Yes, it was a long trip, but I was able to roll my luggage onto the train, stretch my legs when I wanted, use my laptop (WiFi is free) and sleep in my comfy seat.


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## klpca

They both acted like a couple of babies. I'm not a fan of having a reclined seat in my face for the entire flight, but I think it's just part of flying. If the person in front of you wants to recline, you will just have to deal with it.

I flew home from Maui once in a seat that would recline but not stay locked. I just wanted the first (barely reclined) position. That was a pretty miserable flight for me flying in the fully upright position - my back was killing me by the time we got off. I don't understand the need for a full-recline and I always hope that the person in front of me doesn't fully recline. But it's the sky-bus nowadays. I hope that they don't start allowing cell phone calls during flight. That would almost put me over the edge.


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## tiel

We don't fly all that often, maybe 3-4 times a year.  These flights usual last 2-5 hours.  I never recline my seat back, because I don't want to make someone else uncomfortable.  In the standard seats, when someone reclines in front of you, you cannot move for the most part...can't shift knees, certainly can't get up.  If I am really concerned about my comfort, I will pay for the extra room, but I still won't recline my seat.

Well, I guess I do recline when we are fortunate enough to get first class seats on long flights.  But in coach, never.


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## Beaglemom3

I would like to see a federal law enacted where idiots like these are held financially responsible for the diversion of the flight.


Not sure if the other passengers could be compensated, but hefty charges levied against those who cannot behave is something that may have some "behavior modification" benefit.


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## Bunk

dougp26364 said:


> Airlines aren't much more than buses with wings. .



You're not being fair to buses.

There are plenty of people who travel by bus from NYC to Washington DC and Boston and don't complain.  Prices are relatively inexpensive, you often get wifi and power outlets and you arrive in the center of the City.  Seats are often nicer than airplanes.


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## klpca

Bunk said:


> You're not being fair to buses.
> 
> There are plenty of people who travel by bus from NYC to Washington DC and Boston and don't complain.  Prices are relatively inexpensive, you often get wifi and power outlets and you arrive in the center of the City.  Seats are often nicer than airplanes.



I do agree with you on that!


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## PigsDad

Bunk said:


> You're not being fair to buses.
> 
> There are plenty of people who travel by bus from NYC to Washington DC and Boston and don't complain.  Prices are relatively inexpensive, you often get wifi and power outlets and you arrive in the center of the City.  Seats are often nicer than airplanes.


That may be true for the more popular routes on the east coast, but have you ever seen the class of people who take the bus across Kansas?  Truly frightening.  Did that once in my life; never again!

Kurt


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## Passepartout

Beaglemom3 said:


> I opted for Amtrak business class. Yes, it was a long trip, but I was able to roll my luggage onto the train, stretch my legs when I wanted, use my laptop (WiFi is free) and sleep in my comfy seat.




I would joyfully trade my spot in Hell for having viable passenger rail service out where we live. It's a day's drive to the nearest 'major' wide spot in the road. So we are relegated to twice daily 'puddle jumpers' (recently 'upgraded to CRJs from turboprops- though now we have 2 flights instead of 3)

A day's train ride to Portland, San Francisco, or Denver, or Seattle sounds heavenly.

Jim


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## sun&fun

I especially enjoyed the flight during which the father sitting in front of me propped his screaming infant upon his shoulder and fully reclined his seat so I could have inflight entertainment with surround sound


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## Weimaraner

Wow that's bad. I was flying 7 months pregnant and the couple in front of me reclined. I had no where to turn with the passenger in my lap. Maybe if I had a crying baby they would have noticed me. Another passenger offered me their seat when they saw it. I declined but was miserable. I don't recline because I know how uncomfortable it can be to sit behind (I have long legs and need that knee defender thingy)


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## dougp26364

Beaglemom3 said:


> +1.
> 
> I recently had business in Portsmouth-Norfolk, Va.
> 
> There are no non-stops to there from Bos/MHT/PVD. It would have taken 9 hours  flying & layover times in two puddle jumpers. This does not include the 1.5 hours early arrival for check-in an TSA.
> 
> I opted for Amtrak business class. Yes, it was a long trip, but I was able to roll my luggage onto the train, stretch my legs when I wanted, use my laptop (WiFi is free) and sleep in my comfy seat.



No such thing for most midwestern towns. The city has been trying to get Amtrack to open a line to Dallas for several years now but I doubt it ever happens. The only Amtrack service leaves from a small town 30 miles north and the train departs at 03:00. The route, if memory serves me correctly, has about as many stops as a Greyhound bus. Just not a good option for us.


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## dougp26364

Bunk said:


> You're not being fair to buses.
> 
> There are plenty of people who travel by bus from NYC to Washington DC and Boston and don't complain.  Prices are relatively inexpensive, you often get wifi and power outlets and you arrive in the center of the City.  Seats are often nicer than airplanes.




It's a different story in the midwest. Maybe a year ago I assisted a family member with a bus trip home (he and his wife came to the hospital in an ambulance, no transportation available to either). He lived about maybe 120 miles away. The trip took over 24 hours with the route taking him south into Oklahoma with a 14 hour layover. Not many around our parts use the bus service to get anywhere unless there's no other option available.


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## WinniWoman

Flying is just one big pain in the *&%%#! People are paying a lot of money- heck- if I want to recline on a 8-10 hour flight I should be able to! This is the fault of the airlines- treating people like cattle!  I agree with other posters- we try to drive to our destinations if they are under 10 hours. I want to go to so many places, but am discouraged by the fact that you have to fly to get there.

We have to hire a car to take us 2 hours to a major airport (we live in a rural area). We have to be there 2 hours ahead of time-now we are up to 4 hours and we didn't even take off yet! Fees imposed on us for whatever- baggage, use of this or that- upgrades to be able to put your feet flat on the floor-whatever- Then- flight delays or cancellations-The sitting on the tarmac nightmare-Now-If you are lucky and your plane does take off-already tired- cramped into seats like sardines- no food or any niceties...Then- whatever the flight time is....then getting the rental car and driving to the destination---

This as opposed to just leaving our home in a fairly leisurely manner. Stuffing whatever we want into the back of our car. Just the price of gas. Maybe a toll or two. Stopping to sight see along the way. Enjoying a pleasant lunch before we arrive. Taking breaks whenever we want. Fresh air, listening to the radio...we usually drive to places that are opposite heavy traffic so we are good with that- sure we can sometimes hit some snarls- but still better than the whole airport thing!

I can see how people get testy on planes!  When we flew to Scotland a couple of years ago- our plane seats were so cramped- for the first time I actually became claustrophobic. Hated the flights and it really turned me off to flying again, although I assume I will have to fly at least 2 more times for a couple of trips I am hoping for in the future. It really takes away from the exciting anticipation of going to these places.Instead- I feel dread just thinking about flying.

I bet we will see more and more of this kind of thing!The airline industry is going down the tubes....


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## Chrispee

I'm surprised to see that i'm in the minority here, but on any flight I expect that the person in front of me is going to recline their seat.  I also usually recline my seat at some point in time during the flight.  Of course, if I had a pregnant person with a lap infant behind me I would not recline my seat.

I don't consider it a jerk move for the person in front of me to recline his/her seat, but anyone who thinks they should mechanically block someone from using their seat functions has lost touch with social reality in my books.


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## rickandcindy23

Love when the person in the seat in front of me reclines, then sits forward the entire time to rest on the tray table or read.  I don't recline my seat because I am usually sitting up to read.


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## Fern Modena

Some of the trains in Europe have seats that slide forward to recline, meaning that if you want to recline you will do it in your own space, sliding forward into your own knee/legroom.

I wonder why airplane seats aren't this way. I also wonder how many people would recline if the seats were that way. Not half as many, I am guessing.

Fern


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## Ken555

Chrispee said:


> I'm surprised to see that i'm in the minority here, but on any flight I expect that the person in front of me is going to recline their seat.  I also usually recline my seat at some point in time during the flight.  Of course, if I had a pregnant person with a lap infant behind me I would not recline my seat.
> 
> I don't consider it a jerk move for the person in front of me to recline his/her seat, but anyone who thinks they should mechanically block someone from using their seat functions has lost touch with social reality in my books.




I absolutely agree with you. I assume the person in front will recline, though I always hope they won't. When possible I purchase an upgrade to get more room, but not always. I have a flight in a week or so to the east coast and upgrading to the better seat is about 50% the cost of the one-way flight! I'm not sure I can justify that...but probably will.

I had a very poor experience on Air France years ago when traveling in business class. The person in front of me reclined the seat into my lap...the seat didn't have any limit. I had to crawl on the seat to get into the aisle to talk with the flight attendant in order to remedy the issue. The lady in front of me was upset that the flight attendant asked her to make room for me. They've got better seats on AF these days, but whenever I hear about seat space I think of this incident.


Sent from my iPad


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## Passepartout

Fern Modena said:


> Some of the trains in Europe have seats that slide forward to recline, meaning that if you want to recline you will do it in your own space, sliding forward into your own knee/legroom.
> 
> I wonder why airplane seats aren't this way. I also wonder how many people would recline if the seats were that way. Not half as many, I am guessing.
> 
> Fern



Some are. We flew an ANA 787 Dreamliner to Tokyo last April. It's seats 'reclined' by the seat bottom sliding forward. Also, the windows darken electronically, but thats a different discussion.

Jim


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## DavidnRobin

My pet peeves in flying are:
Those who immediately recline their seats as soon as the planes takes off (vs waiting for the all-clear) - this shows me the type of person I may have to deal with in trying to extricate myself from the window seat.

Those that jam their seat hard when reclining - like nobody is behind them (often the same people as above).

Those behind me that type hard on their laptop - to the point where I can feel their typing.

Those who try and talk over the noise of the plane (much like those idiots who always seem to sit behind me at concerts).

Those who talk non-stop (and generally too loudly - see above).

Babes in arms (sorry parents, but they should have their own seat - as well as a child seat from a safety standpoint alone)

Parents that allow their children to kick the back of the seats.

People who take too much carry-on baggage onto the plane (and airlines allowing it...), then feel it necessary to place their carry-on in places other than above their seat (usually placing them in the front of the plane)

As to the recline - I would prefer the airlines to provide no adjustment in recline - and to set somewhere between fully upright and fully reclined (e.g. 3 inch vs 6 inch incline)

{hate away...}


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## am1

DavidnRobin said:


> Babes in arms (sorry parents, but they should have their own seat - as well as a child seat from a safety standpoint alone)



As long as you are willing to subsidy my two infant sons seats I understand.  Our last trip we our sons were given their own business class seats so we had the the last row of business but our sons only spent a few minutes in those seats on a 5.5 hour flight.  

I prefer the second exit row seats as the ones in front of me are not able to recline.


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## jfbookers

*I'm 6 ft 5 in*

And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
Jim


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## billymach4

jfbookers said:


> And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
> Jim



What happens when you go use the lavatory and the passenger in front reclines.


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## am1

jfbookers said:


> And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
> Jim



You could always try to buy the seat in front of you.  Or book a middle seat which increases the odds of no one sitting in front of you.  The airlines do not make it easy.


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## Tia

Re the idea of booking a middle row seat so seat in front might be empty is less likely from the flights I have been on recently years. There are hardly any unoccupied seats anymore.


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## Southpaw

jfbookers said:


> And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
> Jim



Jim - I can imagine at 6'5" it is very hard, but people who block with their knees really frost me.  

I am the last person to recline.  I've flown 2 1/2 million miles and I rarely recline.  I've flown many, many East Coast to Asia flights in coach without reclining for 12 or 14 hours.  Even then, if I recline it is just to take the edge off and I'm always cognizant if the person behind me is awake or not, if they have reclined or not, etc.

So, when I suspect someone is blocking me the inch or so that I am trying to recline, it really gets to me.  Luckily, it has always worked itself out.  

I have also been on the receiving end of discomfort when the person next to me is so heavy that I can't sit upright and have to lean into the aisle.  I get off the plane with a backache.  They definitely are infringing on my space.  Someone reclining is just doing what their seat allows...


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## mav

jfbookers said:


> And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
> Jim



  It would seem to me that it would make more sense to pay for  extra leg room instead of sitting with your knees jammed into the seat in front of you. Isn't that rather painful???  Sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I got over having to pay for extra leg room years ago and just paid for it, and now I am 1k  so I get it for free.


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## pedro47

I do not recline my seat on a airplane. United airlines seats are just uncomfortable in my opinion.


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## Tia

I am neither long legged nor over sized, but to me the people with long legs can't do a thing about their knees hitting the back of someone's seat in most cases. If the people with long legs are being told to pay more then those larger persons leaning into their neighbors seats space better be prepared to do the same. 

I had a window seat last year where the big guy was on the isle and the middle seat guy leaned into my window seat space rather then rub shoulders, giving that big guy space but then taking mine and it irked me. Big person should  lean into the isle as most the time it's clear....

The airlines have created this mess  by shrinking space and need to fix it, maybe up the cost of flights for all don't know.


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## mav

I myself weigh only about 122 lbs and find the seats WAAYYY to small even for a not too heavy person.  I just  always paid for extra legroom when they started charging.  I have extremely bad arthritis and it just is NOT worth just being squashed in.  I SWEAR it seems as if the seats have shrunk big time! The alternative is either stop flying or put up with it. I put up with it but it sure isn't easy!  95% of our flights are overseas, and are LONG flights. I focus on the plum at the end . I am lucky enough to most times get the extra leg room exit row with TONS of legroom by the restrooms on the long haul, and you can just stand right up and be in no ones way. But the bones sure do ache!!
   On one of our flights  on that configuration. DH was in 33a, me in 33b and the man on the other side of me in 33c had THE worst case of psoriasis all over his elbow and further on his arm. I was squashed in the middle, all 122 lbs. with DH snoring in 33a using both arm rests and 33c using the OTHER arm rests! I spent the whole flight trying to suash myself as close to DH's seat to get as far away from the psoriasis as possible, or standing. That was probably my worst flight.  BUT the PLUM at the end got me thru


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## Ken555

*United Air diverts flight after legroom fight*



jfbookers said:


> And nobody in front of me is going to recline. My knees are hard against the back of the seat in front of me when I fly in economy. I used to be able to request and get a exit seat but now that costs extra. When I fly with my wife I may be able to shift my legs somewhat but reclining is still an invasion of space I need.
> 
> Jim




I feel for you. But, what happens when the seat two rows in front of you reclines fully? The person in front of you now is almost forced to recline, at least some, in order to create a little space for themself. Also, I notice you didn't say if you recline your seat. I hope you don't expect to be able to recline your seat while preventing the person in front of you from reclining theirs.

If you prevent the person in front of you from reclining, wouldn't that possibly create the negative situation reported in the article above? While I realize you may not have much choice due to height, isn't it incumbent upon you to obtain a seat you can be comfortable in without taking space away from anyone else? If I was in front of you, in the scenario above, we would definitely have a problem as I am also tall. Hopefully a flight attendant would find another seat for one of us but if not, some other solution would be needed.

I know other taller people who simply budget for exit row or economy plus (or similar) seats for each flight out of necessity. They know it's their responsibility to buy a seat which would work for them. I even know one who always buys first class due to being tall and has a bad back...though he doesn't fly often he simply can't last in the space provided in coach. 



Sent from my iPad


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## sjsharkie

Ken555 said:


> I feel for you. But, what happens when the seat two rows in front of you reclines fully? The person in front of you now is almost forced to recline, at least some, in order to create a little space for themselves. Also, I notice you didn't say if you recline your seat. I hope you don't expect to be able to recline your seat while preventing the person in front of you from reclining theirs.
> 
> If you prevent the person in front of you from reclining, wouldn't that possibly create the negative situation reported in the article above? While I realize you may not have much choice due to height, isn't it incumbent upon you to obtain a seat you can be comfortable in without taking space away from anyone else? If I was in front of you, in the scenario above, we would definitely have a problem as I am also tall. Hopefully a flight attendant would find another seat for one of us but if not, some other solution would be needed.
> 
> I know other taller people who simply budget for exit row or economy plus (or similar) seats for each flight out of necessity. They know it's their responsibility to buy a seat which would work for them. I even know one who always buys first class due to being tall and has a bad back...though he doesn't fly often he simply can't last in the space provided in coach.
> 
> Sent from my iPad



I agree with Ken.

I've logged over a million miles on AA over the years plus some on other carriers as well (I'm a lifetime 2MMiler before they changed the rules).  I expect the person in front of me to recline, and when I sleep - especially on redeye flights - I do recline as well.

I do try to be considerate, especially if I am in an exit row, and not recline if I do not need the room.  If I am trying to do work on a plane or sleep in a non-exit row, and the person in front of me reclines, I have almost no choice but to recline. 

Sorry, but my feeling is that the carrier ordered the seat from the manufacturer with the ability/option to recline.  Therefore, one should expect that your neighbor in front of you may choose to exercise that option when permitted to do so.  If you know you need more room, you need to either pay for it or fly more often so you have that benefit of premium seating included with your status.

-ryan


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## Passepartout

Not to be too contentious here, but since seat configurations are made to fit the (85th, 90th, 95th?) percentile of people, those made most uncomfortable are over those sizes. Whether overly tall, overly leggy, overweight, wider shoulders, bigger feet etc., outsize people should be prepared to either pay extra for the space they require, or be uncomfortable. It's just a fact of life that we, the traveling public have forced the airlines to downsize seats, storage space, amenities, food, snacks, you name it, by offering all the above at premium price. Passengers have the option to pay or ride in (steerage) coach. 

There have been many times in my life where I would LOVE to be 6'5" tall, but I don't expect doorways to be made at 5'9" to accommodate me.

Referring back to my ANA Dreamliner experience, where the seat 'reclined' by the bottom cushion sliding forward, it was a good solution that prevented the seat back from encroaching into anyone else's space.

I recall a flight to Europe (Delta? Maybe) where the seat ahead of me reclined so far into my face that by laying my head against the headrest, I could make a fist with the thumb end of my fist touching my nose, my pinky could touch the seat back ahead of me. Impossible to get out of that seat. Then the inconsiderate slob in that seat leaned forward and read/computed.

Jim


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## ondeadlin

I will not recline my seat.  Ever.

It's a do-unto-others approach.  I don't want anyone doing it to me, and I'm not going to do it to someone else.

In today's age of air travel, it's simply rude to recline your seat.

That said, I would never use knee defender.  That's even more rude.


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## Chrispee

I have to say thank you to all for opening my eyes to this issue. I had never considered it rude to recline my seat, but there are enough people here saying that they consider it to be rude that it must be somewhat representative of the general population.

I am perfectly happy when the person in front of me reclines so I'd never considered it a "do-unto-others approach", but will certainly reconsider on my next flight.


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## Beaglemom3

I recline my seat just ever so teensie-slightly so that I have a bit of a wee angle. This way,  I can mush up my sweater against the window. Being a side-sleeper, this works for moi.

I don't take out my electronics onboard. I either sleep, read, eat, watch a movie or look out for Gremlins on the wing.


I think that we are living in a climate of entitlement as demonstrated by the rude & obnoxious actions of recliner and reclined-upon. What ever happened to manners and civility and not the "me first" syndrome.

The ever-shrinking legroom on board has contributed to this "in my space, in my face" shrinkage of personal space IMHO. This puts an unnecessary and unwelcome burden on the flight crew - refereeing passengers. It's disruptive and dangerous.


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## Lou

I don't recline my seat and don't like it when someone reclines into my lap.  The airlines are charging for everything now....so why not offer a group of seats that do not recline.  I would buy them!


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## Ken555

ondeadlin said:


> In today's age of air travel, it's simply rude to recline your seat.



Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It simply cannot be construed to be rude to use the features of the seat. That is taking this too far, in my opinion.

I usually recline the seat an inch or so and am happy, but if the person in front of me reclines further than I need to also recline in order to have enough room for myself. I cannot agree with you that in all cases it is rude to recline.

I'm of the opinion that it is the airlines fault for providing insufficient space, but until we demand they change - and pay for it - this is the reality. I don't blame the guy in front of me for using the seat, and I wouldn't accept the person behind me blaming me for doing similarly. That's just wrong.







Sent from my iPad


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## uscav8r

Chrispee said:


> I'm surprised to see that i'm in the minority here, but on any flight I expect that the person in front of me is going to recline their seat.  I also usually recline my seat at some point in time during the flight.  Of course, if I had a pregnant person with a lap infant behind me I would not recline my seat.
> 
> I don't consider it a jerk move for the person in front of me to recline his/her seat, but anyone who thinks they should mechanically block someone from using their seat functions has lost touch with social reality in my books.


+1.

The seat reclines, so let it recline. If the person in front of me reclines, should I jam myself up so the person behind me gets room? No. And I won't begrudge the person in front of me their ability to recline, either.

Whenever I do recline the seat, I generally do it in a slow, controlled fashion so it does not slam into somebody's laptop or legs.


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## uscav8r

ondeadlin said:


> I will not recline my seat.  Ever.
> 
> It's a do-unto-others approach.  I don't want anyone doing it to me, and I'm not going to do it to someone else.
> 
> In today's age of air travel, it's simply rude to recline your seat.
> 
> That said, I would never use knee defender.  That's even more rude.


Wrong answer. Are you saying one can not recline one's seat on a 13-hour flight to Asia or Europe? That is completely unreasonable.

Reclining seats come with the territory. It just requires that people (in front AND behind) be courteous and reasonable.


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## uscav8r

Ken555 said:


> Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It simply cannot be construed to be rude to use the features of the seat. That is taking this too far, in my opinion.
> 
> I usually recline the seat an inch or so and am happy, but if the person in front of me reclines further than I need to also recline in order to have enough room for myself. I cannot agree with you that in all cases it is rude to recline.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that it is the airlines fault for providing insufficient space, but until we demand they change - and pay for it - this is the reality. I don't blame the guy in front of me for using the seat, and I wouldn't accept the person behind me blaming me for doing similarly. That's just wrong.
> 
> Sent from my iPad


Totally agree. If airlines remove the recliner function on all economy seats, it will NOT make for a better flight experience. It just means they can squeeze the seats together even more that they already are.


----------



## uscav8r

Lou said:


> I don't recline my seat and don't like it when someone reclines into my lap.  The airlines are charging for everything now....so why not offer a group of seats that do not recline.  I would buy them!


It's called the exit row, and some airlines do charge for first dibs on these seats.


----------



## WinniWoman

Ken555 said:


> Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It simply cannot be construed to be rude to use the features of the seat. That is taking this too far, in my opinion.
> 
> I usually recline the seat an inch or so and am happy, but if the person in front of me reclines further than I need to also recline in order to have enough room for myself. I cannot agree with you that in all cases it is rude to recline.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that it is the airlines fault for providing insufficient space, but until we demand they change - and pay for it - this is the reality. I don't blame the guy in front of me for using the seat, and I wouldn't accept the person behind me blaming me for doing similarly. That's just wrong.
> 
> I agree-Ken555! The seats are made to recline for comfort. This is all the fault of the airlines- cramming people in like cattle. If things get any worse, people need to boycott the airlines. I am not big on boycotting businesses, but the only way they will change is if people refuse to fly. I avoid it as much as possible.


----------



## dougp26364

I'm not sure we can lay all the blame at the feet of the airlines. If passengers didn't buy based on ticket price, airlines wouldn't cram as many seats as possible into a fixed space.  Airlines that have based themselves on comfort rather to price point have routinely had a difficult time attracting enough passengers to make a profit.


----------



## ondeadlin

Ken555 said:


> Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It simply cannot be construed to be rude to use the features of the seat.



Sure it can, Ken.  Let me give you an example: if I direct my air vent on the plane to blow on the person next to me, whether he likes it or not, I'm being rude.  The fact the mechanics of the plane allow me to do it is irrelevant.

Seats recline because that's the way they are manufactured en mass.  The airline then decides how to configure the rows.  Anyone whose flying experience spans from, say, 1980 to now knows how that configuration has changed.  Even today, the configuration can vary significantly from Southwest or Jet Blue (relatively roomy) to (shiver) Spirit.

Again, do unto others is the best approach.  You will very rarely see a frequent business traveler recline - even when the person in front of them does.  Why?  Because another person's faux paux or ignorance of good flying etiquette doesn't make me want to impose the same lousy conditions on the flyer behind me.

And of course it's the airline's fault, but that's little consolation to the poor guy getting his knees crushed.


----------



## Ken555

ondeadlin said:


> Sure it can, Ken.  Let me give you an example: if I direct my air vent on the plane to blow on the person next to me, whether he likes it or not, I'm being rude.  The fact the mechanics of the plane allow me to do it is irrelevant.
> 
> Seats recline because that's the way they are manufactured en mass.  The airline then decides how to configure the rows.  Anyone whose flying experience spans from, say, 1980 to now knows how that configuration has changed.  Even today, the configuration can vary significantly from Southwest or Jet Blue (relatively roomy) to (shiver) Spirit.
> 
> Again, do unto others is the best approach.  You will very rarely see a frequent business traveler recline - even when the person in front of them does.  Why?  Because another person's faux paux or ignorance of good flying etiquette doesn't make me want to impose the same lousy conditions on the flyer behind me.
> 
> And of course it's the airline's fault, but that's little consolation to the poor guy getting his knees crushed.




While I agree with your intent, I do not agree that it is rude to use the recline function of the seat, especially in the scenario I postulated earlier. You cannot paint all those who recline with a broad brush, as you have done, as rude while the majority (in my opinion) do not abuse the recline function. 

There are many ways to be rude. Reclining an airline seat is not one of them. 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## ondeadlin

Well, that's the tricky thing about manners, isn't it?  In many countries, it's considered rude to tip (cross thread!), and I'm sure we could both site other behaviors that one person could consider normal, while another considers the same action rude.  I'm focused on the other guy in those situations, because it's the other guy whose perception matters, i.e. Who ultimately perceives whether something is rude or not.


----------



## Southpaw

ondeadlin said:


> You will very rarely see a frequent business traveler recline - even when the person in front of them does.  Why?  Because another person's faux paux or ignorance of good flying etiquette doesn't make me want to impose the same lousy conditions on the flyer behind me.



I agree, from my own observations, that the very frequent fliers are less likely to recline.  

For those, generally less frequent fliers who recline, I wouldn't call it rude.  It is more thoughtlessness.  They generally fly less and they are not really thinking about reclining or not.  Many are in a vacation mood, so they want to relax.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Reclining-Seat Ruckus: Passenger Charged After Miami-Paris Jet Diverts - U.S. News/ NBCNEWS.com

"A passenger on an American Airlines flight from Miami to Paris that was diverted to Boston was charged Friday in federal court with interfering with flight crew members. Prosecutors say Paris resident Edmund Alexandre became upset after a woman reclined the seat in front of him on the Wednesday flight. It's the second such incident in the U.S. this week..."


Richard


----------



## MULTIZ321

In Defense of the Knee Defender - by Damon Darlin/ The Upshot: Everyday Economics/ The New York Times.com

"I have a set of Knee Defenders, the devices that hook onto the tray table of an airliner seat back and prevent the seat from reclining.

When I mention this to people, they express shock, as if it is something beyond the moral pale, like taking candy from children or not tipping above 15 percent.

It’s an even a worse offense in the eyes of my colleague Josh Barro, who argued this week for the primacy of the economic rights of the recliner. He calls using a Knee Defender theft.

The real problem is undefined property rights over the same four or five inches of space. People don’t agree on who has the rights. The airlines leave it foggy.

“As for what customer has the ‘right,’ I think what we can say is the in-flight experience is much better when passengers are courteous to each other and flight crews,” said Paul Flaningan, a spokesman for American Airlines..."


Richard


----------



## PStreet1

Honestly, the seats don't recline enough to significantly increase the comfort of the person doing the reclining, but they do recline enough to significantly decrease the comfort of the person behind the recliner.  

If I could add a feature, it would be lumbar support.  Backs would experience much less strain and gain considerably more relief than the few inches of reclining gives.


----------



## sjsharkie

ondeadlin said:


> Sure it can, Ken.  Let me give you an example: if I direct my air vent on the plane to blow on the person next to me, whether he likes it or not, I'm being rude.  The fact the mechanics of the plane allow me to do it is irrelevant.



Sorry, I don't buy that it's rude in all cases and I think your example is flawed.  The intent of the air vent was clearly to direct air onto the passenger sitting under it, not to direct it at another passenger.  That is why there is generally one air vent for each seat.

What other purpose would the recline button serve other than to recline the chair?  It is the sole purpose of including the function within the chair mechanism.

As to whether it is rude to recline, even Miss Manners says doesn't state that it is outright rude to do it:

_"In the etiquette system, as opposed to the legal system, we deal in courtesies, not rights. The polite person tries to negotiate a compromise that will provide some comfort for all, including himself, under difficult circumstances. Reclining the chair only partway, for example."_

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10010-2004Oct5.html

I think there is a polite way to go about reclining a chair.  Nastiness can go both ways, and at the end of the day I try to be as considerate as I can when doing it.  But I will admit that I am not as polite as Miss Manners -- if the chair in front of me is fully reclined, I generally will also fully recline as I have difficulty working or sleeping in such a cramped area.  However, I wouldn't consider not polite being outright rude.

-ryan


----------



## ondeadlin

sjsharkie said:


> However, I wouldn't consider not polite being outright rude.



As an attorney, this made me chuckle.  It's a very lawyerly statement, lol.


----------



## jfbookers

*I'm still 6 ft. 5 inches*

In rereading my first post it may sound a bit strong. I often fly economy to be able to travel more and yes given my size and seat configuration I am often uncomfortable. I usually talk to the person directly in front of me explaining my situation and if they feel an absolute need to recline we have always been able to reseat one or the other of us. This has rarely been necessary.
Also when on a rare uncrowded plane I have been able to claim any unused seats short of first class.( Glasgow to Philly this spring)
And I admit I am considering a United offer for economy plus for a year for $499.00.
Jim


----------



## dougp26364

jfbookers said:


> In rereading my first post it may sound a bit strong. I often fly economy to be able to travel more and yes given my size and seat configuration I am often uncomfortable. I usually talk to the person directly in front of me explaining my situation and if they feel an absolute need to recline we have always been able to reseat one or the other of us. This has rarely been necessary.
> Also when on a rare uncrowded plane I have been able to claim any unused seats short of first class.( Glasgow to Philly this spring)
> And I admit I am considering a United offer for economy plus for a year for $499.00.
> Jim



The thing for me is, you are knowingly booking a seat that isn't going to fit your frame. You are also aware that seats recline and you may find the person in front of you in your lap. You book cheap on purpose rather than pay the extra for the extra leg room. IMO, it's your problem, not the persons in front of you.

I'm not 6'5" tall so I don't suffer the same problem. While I can empathise with your problem, it's a little hard to be sympathetic when you're doing it to yourself. Even at 5'9" I find economy to uncomfortable for flights under 3 hours. To that end I pay the extra money for stretch seating vs getting mad at or having to negotiate with person in front of me. Lately we've been taking more drive too vacations and fewer flights. If I can't afford to fly comfortably I'd just as soon not go through the inconvenience.


----------



## w.bob

I am 5'6" 175lbs. Most of the time I need to recline not because of size but because I have back problems (have had surgery) and just cannot get comfortable.


----------



## PigsDad

dougp26364 said:


> The thing for me is, you are knowingly booking a seat that isn't going to fit your frame. You are also aware that seats recline and you may find the person in front of you in your lap. You book cheap on purpose rather than pay the extra for the extra leg room. IMO, it's your problem, not the persons in front of you.
> 
> I'm not 6'5" tall so I don't suffer the same problem. While I can empathise with your problem, it's a little hard to be sympathetic when you're doing it to yourself. Even at 5'9" I find economy to uncomfortable for flights under 3 hours. To that end I pay the extra money for stretch seating vs getting mad at or having to negotiate with person in front of me. Lately we've been taking more drive too vacations and fewer flights. If I can't afford to fly comfortably I'd just as soon not go through the inconvenience.



I *am *6'5" (same as Jim) and absolutely agree with *you*, Doug.  I have the same issues -- if the person in front of me reclines their seat, I need to adjust as there is simply not enough room for my knees to be straight in front of me.  I need to either move them to one side or the other, or lower them by pushing my feet forward.

Is it uncomfortable?  Absolutely.
Do I begrudge the person in front of me for reclining?  Absolutely not!

They paid for that seat just as I paid for my seat.  If I want to recline, I will and that is my prerogative to do so.  I agree that there are more polite ways of reclining (slowly, not to full recline, seat up during meals, etc.), but I don't think it is "rude" to recline.  

If I want more space, I purchase more space (which I do often).  Being tall has its advantages at times, but it also has disadvantages such as more expensive clothes, hard to find shoes, etc. -- and more expensive airline seats (if you want more space). That's just life, IMO.

Kurt


----------



## ScoopKona

dougp26364 said:


> I'm not 6'5" tall so I don't suffer the same problem. While I can empathise with your problem, it's a little hard to be sympathetic when you're doing it to yourself.



I wish I was only 6'5". And your argument is invalid. I recently flew 14 hours to China. I had three choices -- coach, for $2,000 roundtrip (there were internal flights in China as well), business class for $8,000, and first class for $17,000.

Are you suggesting that I need to spend an additional $6-to-15 thousand because I was born this way?

If I'm sitting behind you, you are NOT going to be able to put the seat back. I wish that you could. But physics isn't going to let you. And while I'm sorry about that, I would vastly prefer it if people didn't constantly try to slam their seat into my knees. It's already painful enough.

Luckily for me, gate attendants, ticket attendants and flight attendants take one look at me and find me something that works -- they have a little empathy for their fellow man, even if other passengers do not.


----------



## dougp26364

ScoopLV said:


> I wish I was only 6'5". And your argument is invalid. I recently flew 14 hours to China. I had three choices -- coach, for $2,000 roundtrip (there were internal flights in China as well), business class for $8,000, and first class for $17,000.
> 
> Are you suggesting that I need to spend an additional $6-to-15 thousand because I was born this way?
> 
> If I'm sitting behind you, you are NOT going to be able to put the seat back. I wish that you could. But physics isn't going to let you. And while I'm sorry about that, I would vastly prefer it if people didn't constantly try to slam their seat into my knees. It's already painful enough.
> 
> Luckily for me, gate attendants, ticket attendants and flight attendants take one look at me and find me something that works -- they have a little empathy for their fellow man, even if other passengers do not.



I'm suggesting that, when you book a seat that you know is going to be uncomfortable and you know the seat in front of you has the option to recline, then there is no valid arguement that the person reclining is rude. 

Most airlines offer the premium coach seats which offer additional leg room without having to pay business class prices. I've booked these seats as little as 24 hours in advance and I've never seen that section sell out months before a flight. There's also the exit row seats, for a premium, in which the seats directly in front of them either don't recline or have limited recline depending on the aircraft, exit row and seating configuration.


----------



## ScoopKona

dougp26364 said:


> There's also the exit row seats, for a premium, in which the seats directly in front of them either don't recline or have limited recline depending on the aircraft, exit row and seating configuration.



Are you suggesting that I don't know about these options? And that I don't go to my home airport at least a week in advance and try to get a seat that works? 

I don't want to inconvenience others. I am not a special snowflake. But when I roll snake-eyes on a flight, and it's booked solid, last minute, no exit row, no bulkhead, no "weird seat in the back near the attendant's jump seat," then I am stuck like this: 






The person in front of me can try to recline all he or she wants. It isn't happening. It's impossible. And on the couple occasions where someone DESPERATELY wants to recline anyway, flight attendants have given this person the choice between "knock it off" and "handcuffs."

I can't diet my way out of the fact that I need to stoop in an airplane to avoid hitting my head on the ceiling. I'm THAT kind of tall. It truly sucks. But I'm not buying a second seat or spending $15K extra to fly first just because I look like Hodor from Game of Thrones.

EDIT -- This story (where the picture came from) describes my experience flying to a T.  http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/10/14/tall.fliers.rant/

DOUBLE EDIT -- In a few cases, people have volunteered to give up their "better than average" seat and switch places with me. They see what's going on, and they realize that for them it's a minor inconvenience. And for me it's agony. I buy them some drinks (if they'll even accept them), thank them profusely, and not eat my knees for the duration. This is one of the many reasons why I think that people are basically decent. People stand up, say, "Hey! That dude would be better off in this seat. Let's switch." This has happened more than once. These people more than counterbalance the ones who try to slam into my knees every 30 seconds for the duration of a five-hour flight. (I have never had a bad long-haul seat. I book all of those a year in advance and make sure that I have the kind of seat that I can even WALK when the plane finally lands.)


----------



## am1

I see nothing wrong with paying for a better seat or buying another.  To me its just the cost of being tall.  Which does have its advantages.  I am sure much more valuable then being short.

I do understand where you are coming from but every passenger should be able to recline their seat if they choose to.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Breaking my tibial plateau (top of the tibia-leg) was a game changer.

I am ultra protective of the leg now and do not want anyone reclining down and onto it, so I do spend the extra $35-$48 dollars  ( x 2)for the roomier leg room when/if available. If not, I call the airlines to discuss.

So far, they've been very accommodating and once bumped me up to business at no charge. It may help if you're a FF member of the respective airline.

The extra leg room seats are not always available, so grabbing these early are very important when I book my flights.

For me, it's the price I have to pay. No one's responsibility but my own.


=


----------



## Tia

Caught part of the news this am there was another leg room story in Florida over the weekend

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...-mid-air-fight-reclining-seats-just-week.html


----------



## dougp26364

ScoopLV said:


> Are you suggesting that I don't know about these options? And that I don't go to my home airport at least a week in advance and try to get a seat that works?
> 
> I don't want to inconvenience others. I am not a special snowflake. But when I roll snake-eyes on a flight, and it's booked solid, last minute, no exit row, no bulkhead, no "weird seat in the back near the attendant's jump seat," then I am stuck like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The person in front of me can try to recline all he or she wants. It isn't happening. It's impossible. And on the couple occasions where someone DESPERATELY wants to recline anyway, flight attendants have given this person the choice between "knock it off" and "handcuffs."
> 
> I can't diet my way out of the fact that I need to stoop in an airplane to avoid hitting my head on the ceiling. I'm THAT kind of tall. It truly sucks. But I'm not buying a second seat or spending $15K extra to fly first just because I look like Hodor from Game of Thrones.
> 
> EDIT -- This story (where the picture came from) describes my experience flying to a T.  http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/10/14/tall.fliers.rant/
> 
> DOUBLE EDIT -- In a few cases, people have volunteered to give up their "better than average" seat and switch places with me. They see what's going on, and they realize that for them it's a minor inconvenience. And for me it's agony. I buy them some drinks (if they'll even accept them), thank them profusely, and not eat my knees for the duration. This is one of the many reasons why I think that people are basically decent. People stand up, say, "Hey! That dude would be better off in this seat. Let's switch." This has happened more than once. These people more than counterbalance the ones who try to slam into my knees every 30 seconds for the duration of a five-hour flight. (I have never had a bad long-haul seat. I book all of those a year in advance and make sure that I have the kind of seat that I can even WALK when the plane finally lands.)



When you can't, you can't. I haven't suggested that you do the impossible. I'm just suggesting that it's not rude for a passenger to want to recline in a seat that provides that option.

I'm not debating your size or your discomfort. If I was in front of you I certainly would have empathy and not recline my seat regardless of the length of the flight. 

However, if/when you have the option to upgrade to the premium coach class seats and you don't exercise that option knowing full well you won't fit in or be comfortable in a standard economy seat, then and only then do I lose most of my sympathy for your plight. Even at 5'9" I find standard economy seating uncomfortable enought that I'll pay for the extra room. I did just that last night when I checked our Hawaiian reservations and noticed that the premium seating on the 5 hour leg had begun to book up.

Personally, I wish the airlines would stop craming the seats so close together that it's impossible for a normal size person to sit comfortably for any length of time but, as a society of bargain shoppers looking for the cheapest price, we've done it to ourselves.

FWIW, I really dislike the smaller commuter flights (the photo looks like a CRJ). I would love to avoid them but, from our regional airport we get our share of Embrair and CRJ's. We have a connection on what I lovingly refer to as the moped of commercial flights, the dreaded Q400. Thank goodness the flight is a little longer than an hour.

In the picture you've posted, I'd hate to be both you or the passenger in front of you. I'd know before sitting down that even with the seat fully upright, you'd have no choice but to have your knee's in the back of the seat, which isn't comfortable for anyone involved.


----------



## ScoopKona

dougp26364 said:


> When you can't, you can't. I haven't suggested that you do the impossible. I'm just suggesting that it's not rude for a passenger to want to recline in a seat that provides that option.



That's fine, and I'm glad that you wouldn't try to recline if you were stuck in front of me. (And when I use the word "stuck," I mean STUCK. Reclining isn't a possibility at that point. I'm nearly a foot taller than you. And if there was a painless, non-health-threatening way to remove a foot from my legs, I would have the operation today. I would sprint to the hospital.)

What I am saying is that you are in the minority. 

I do everything possible to make sure that my flight is not going to interfere with your comfort. I book my trips a year in advance. I work out with the ticketing agent exactly where I'm going to sit. My wife and I have only sat together a handful of times in our lives. I sit one place, she's on the other side of the plane. (But she's a good sport about it. She doesn't want me in agony.) "Avoidance of pain" is a powerful motivator. Every time airline seats threads comes up, people suggest that I try exit rows, bulkheads and other premium seats, as if I was completely oblivious to the fact that there are half a dozen seats in coach where I actually somewhat fit. When people suggest this, I read loud-and-clear that they have no idea what I have to go through in order to fly. Luckily, the airline employees know EXACTLY what I'm going through. They work miracles to make sure that I am even capable of walking when the plane lands.

On the handful of occasions where nothing works out and I end up crammed in someplace like that photo, I invariably sit behind some special snowflake who spends the entire five-hour flight slamming their seat back. I used to take it when I was younger. But now I just call the flight attendant, whose word is law.

EDIT -- Here's how tall I am -- I don't pay for the premium seats. When I work out my itinerary at the airline ticket counter, the ticketing agent always volunteers to waive the premium seat fee. I have never asked for this. They just do it. I suspect that they have been told by their legal department not to charge the freakishly tall extra for a seat. When I sit in a "premium" seat, there is nothing premium about it. I still don't fit. But at least I'm not eating my knees. I have walked up to a ticketing counter and the person looks at me and says "54-A!" Because that's the seat I'm getting. They know that 54-A is the only choice that works on that plane on that flight. (There is usually a weird seat across from the attendant's jump seat. That's where you'll usually find me.)


----------



## markel

Here's the way I see it. There aren't many (if any) who takes pleasure in flying. For me, it's the quickest way from point A to point B. I'm 6'3"  260 lbs. and although I am not "comfortable" in an airline seat, I don't seem to have the issues with this as some others do. I do not recline and really don't like it when someone in the seat in front of me does but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. Sadly, (as we have seen now three times in the last few days) it is an "all about me" world we live in. Very little respect for anyone. It shouldn't take the smartest person on the planet to realize that they are putting someone at the discomfort level by reclining their seat. But sadly again, many don't care. I do not agree with this. I also feel that people of "size" (in regards to this discussion) shouldn't assume that everyone should give in to their every wish. I don't agree with them playing that card. I strongly agree that people need to be held accountable if a plane is diverted, hit them hard in the wallet. A little compassion can go a long way.

Mark


----------



## MULTIZ321

Flight Cabin Crews Call the Shots in Fights Over Reclining Seats - by Ben Popken/ Business/Travel/ nbcnews.com

"A recent surge in flights getting diverted because of passengers fighting for recline space can be chalked up to flight attendants feeling they've run out of options when dealing with unruly passengers.

A Delta flight from New York to West Palm Beach, Florida, was diverted to Jacksonville, Florida, on Sunday after a woman resting her head on a tray table was upset when the passenger in front of her reclined his seat, hitting her head.

It was the third such diversion in eight days after passengers got into disagreements over seat reclining. On Aug. 24, a United Airlines passenger stopped the woman in front of him from reclining by using a plastic device called the "Knee Defender."The $21.95 gadget attaches to the tray table arms and prevents the seat in front from leaning back. A flight attendant told him to remove the device, which, though allowed by the FAA, is banned by U.S. airlines. He refused. The passenger ahead of him then allegedly dumped a cup of water on him. 

Three days later, an American flight from Miami to Paris was diverted to Boston, also because of a passenger fight over reclining seats.

It's not that the skies are getting any less friendly, however.

"It's the echo effect," said Joe Brancatelli, former executive editor of Frequent Flyer magazine. After the "Knee Defender" incident lit up social media and news coverage, "the two subsequent incidents are basically flight attendants saying, 'Why would we deal with this when another crew decided to divert?'" ..."


Richard


----------



## s1b000

I was on that flight last night.  I did not witness the "lady's" interaction with the flight crew, I did hear 2nd hand that the flight attendant 's involvement did seem to escalate things.  That said, the crew members I interacted with were very professional and I felt Delta handled it as well as could be expected.  That woman should never be allowed on a plane again, I heard that only when the police boarded did she reconsider her actions.


----------



## dougp26364

s1b000 said:


> I was on that flight last night.  I did not witness the "lady's" interaction with the flight crew, I did hear 2nd hand that the flight attendant 's involvement did seem to escalate things.  That said, the crew members I interacted with were very professional and I felt Delta handled it as well as could be expected.  That woman should never be allowed on a plane again, I heard that only when the police boarded did she reconsider her actions.



It's my understanding that many, if not all, of these people get black listed from the airline involved. I don't believe they get black listed industry wide......yet.


----------



## Ken555

Well, with all the news this week I decided to buy an upgrade for my flight in a few days. I would likely have done so anyway, as I have before, but was annoyed at the $89 Delta wants for a 4.5 hr flight (in the past this route was $49)...and probably would have bought at the airport as I've done previously. But with the news this week I thought it best to buy before everyone else decides to buy an upgrade.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## ScoopKona

s1b000 said:


> I was on that flight last night.  I did not witness the "lady's" interaction with the flight crew, I did hear 2nd hand that the flight attendant 's involvement did seem to escalate things.  That said, the crew members I interacted with were very professional and I felt Delta handled it as well as could be expected.  That woman should never be allowed on a plane again, I heard that only when the police boarded did she reconsider her actions.



I am so glad you chimed in. What, if anything, did the airline do for you?


----------



## s1b000

Before we landed they sent an email to all Skymiles members with apology for the inconvenience and 10,000 miles


----------



## beejaybeeohio

*How generous!*



s1b000 said:


> Before we landed they sent an email to all Skymiles members with apology for the inconvenience and 10,000 miles



IMHO a cash voucher worth between 300-500 would have been better than 
10k in ff miles.  What did Delta do for non Skymiles members?


----------



## vacationhopeful

I wonder if the person who was taken off the plane was a Skymiles member? :ignore:


----------



## Bunk

*Interview with ejected United Air passenger or why we should not jump to conclusions.*

Here is the interview with the passenger who was ejected.  http://gothamist.com/2014/09/03/newark_knee_defendee_speaks.php
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...reat-seat-reclining-debate-im-pretty-ashamed/
(The Washington Post article links to his interview with the Today Show)

This demonstrates to me once again why it is always best to get the facts before we jump to conclusions.  

I think that many of us assumed that the person in the back had a physical reason such as size which prompted him to take steps to prevent the person in front from reclining.  The propriety of that conduct is being argued in another post.  And we also assumed this fight occurred where the seats are most jammed in.  

But it took place in United’s Economy Plus Section.  The cause of the conflict was a sense of entitlement.

This was not a situation where the person in the back had a physical problem such as size.  Instead, our hero flies about 75K to 100K miles a year for work and regularly uses the knee defender in the hope that the person in front tries to recline and then forgets about it, hoping they think the seat is broken.  (And on a personal level, he doesn’t recline and thinks it seems rude to recline.)

This time, the person in front complained to the flight attendant, who told our hero that the passenger in front had the right to recline and that he had to remove the knee defender, which he did.

Our hero then complained that the passenger in front blasted her seat back, right on his laptop, which almost shattered his screen and which came flying onto his lap.  His complaint seems to be with how quickly she reclined the seat.  

He then got upset because the flight attendant asked him to allow the passenger to recline a few inches and “she just took 100 percent of it”.  Chivalry being dead, he pushed her seat forward and put the knee defender back in”.

So in this particular case, we have a seasoned traveller who flies in a section where he knows that passengers pay extra money to recline, and he has a practice of using a device not allowed by the airlines in order to block passengers from doing what they paid extra money to do, namely recline.  

I’m not looking to defend the passenger in front, who reacted by throwing a cup of Sprite at him.  And I don’t know if it was necessary to divert the plane.  But based on these facts, I hope that both are heavily fined.

And as proof there is a God, after he was thrown off the plane in Chicago, his replacement flight was with Spirit Air.


----------



## brigechols

Bunk said:


> And as proof there is a God, after he was thrown off the plane in Chicago, his replacement flight was with Spirit Air.



:rofl::rofl::hysterical:


----------



## laurac260

I have not flown in a very, very long time.  My husband despises flying, so we drive.

I prefer to fly IF of course it is much quicker to get there (try flying from Cincinnati to Buffalo for instance..door to door it isn't much quicker than driving).

All that said, IMHO flying is like riding public transportation, the city bus, only in the air.  The seats aren't comfy, the person next to you may or MAY NOT be someone you would choose to share breathing space with, etc, you spend too much time trying to juggle the items you have in your possession, you have to go the bathroom at the most inopportune times.. you get the gist.  Maybe when folks just start treating it the same way as riding the bus (would you expect to be comfortable in the city bus, ever?) then they won't have such high expectations in the first place.


----------



## Kal

How would it be if that Hot Head in the front seat were your spouse.  Cause her any heartburn and she severely injures one's "male-ness".


----------



## vacationhopeful

The expectation is the a $600-1200 one way fare should be MUCH BETTER than a $3 bus ticket. And I regular ride the public bus - esp on vacation as rental cars are just too expensive for the limited number of trips I would be using them. A cab used every day is cheaper.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Kal said:


> How would it be if that Hot Head in the front seat were your spouse.  Cause her any heartburn and she severely injures one's "male-ness".



She should know that her partner's "male-ness" might not perform in the same way as before? :ignore:


----------



## Bunk

This is a 21st century fight.
He wasn't concerned about his maleness; he was upset about his laptop.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Two wrongs  ≠  a right.

Agree with Bunk that it's all about entitlement............. aka "it's all about me".






--


----------



## dougp26364

Bunk said:


> Here is the interview with the passenger who was ejected.  http://gothamist.com/2014/09/03/newark_knee_defendee_speaks.php
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...reat-seat-reclining-debate-im-pretty-ashamed/
> (The Washington Post article links to his interview with the Today Show)
> 
> This demonstrates to me once again why it is always best to get the facts before we jump to conclusions.
> 
> I think that many of us assumed that the person in the back had a physical reason such as size which prompted him to take steps to prevent the person in front from reclining.  The propriety of that conduct is being argued in another post.  And we also assumed this fight occurred where the seats are most jammed in.
> 
> But it took place in United’s Economy Plus Section.  The cause of the conflict was a sense of entitlement.
> 
> This was not a situation where the person in the back had a physical problem such as size.  Instead, our hero flies about 75K to 100K miles a year for work and regularly uses the knee defender in the hope that the person in front tries to recline and then forgets about it, hoping they think the seat is broken.  (And on a personal level, he doesn’t recline and thinks it seems rude to recline.)
> 
> This time, the person in front complained to the flight attendant, who told our hero that the passenger in front had the right to recline and that he had to remove the knee defender, which he did.
> 
> Our hero then complained that the passenger in front blasted her seat back, right on his laptop, which almost shattered his screen and which came flying onto his lap.  His complaint seems to be with how quickly she reclined the seat.
> 
> He then got upset because the flight attendant asked him to allow the passenger to recline a few inches and “she just took 100 percent of it”.  Chivalry being dead, he pushed her seat forward and put the knee defender back in”.
> 
> So in this particular case, we have a seasoned traveller who flies in a section where he knows that passengers pay extra money to recline, and he has a practice of using a device not allowed by the airlines in order to block passengers from doing what they paid extra money to do, namely recline.
> 
> I’m not looking to defend the passenger in front, who reacted by throwing a cup of Sprite at him.  And I don’t know if it was necessary to divert the plane.  But based on these facts, I hope that both are heavily fined.
> 
> And as proof there is a God, after he was thrown off the plane in Chicago, his replacement flight was with Spirit Air.



Actually, I knew most of this. The debate on the thread in the travel forum simply took another direction. 

I was a little surprised this guy used the knee defender in UAL's economy plus section. We regulary book those seats on longer flights because of the extra room. When the passenger in front reclines it's not as much of an inconvenience and it's not as difficult to get out of the seat to use the lavatory. My wife also reclines her seat to take a nap and because of comfort issues. Knowing I've given the person behind her as much room as possible makes me feel a little better about her reclining.

Now the lady in front probably shouldn't have slammed her seat back into full recline but, those seats sometimes have a mind of their own and, if someone was purposefully blocking my recline in an extended seating cabin, I'd probably have been a little peaved myself. 

I wonder about Mr. FF, who travels for his company. Was a reclined seat worth potentially risking his job and his FF status on an airline? The airline could easily black list him and delete his FF account and, if I was his boss, I'd have to consider if this was someone I wanted representing my company. After all people have been fired just for what they post on FB. 

It seems to me that both individuals acted more than a little out of line. I'm glad I wasn't one of the passengers on the plane who was inconvenienced by two passengers who couldn't manage to get alone for just a few hours.


----------



## dougp26364

vacationhopeful said:


> I wonder if the person who was taken off the plane was a Skymiles member? :ignore:



If they were before, my bet is they're not now. I would imagine their account would be cancelled and all FF miles forfited. I doubt the airlines are desperate enough to need this sort of passengers business.


----------



## pacodemountainside

Reincarnation??

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168684&highlight=fat+people


----------



## Beaglemom3

The airplane seat wars.......... assaulting v. usurping as I see it. Again, two wrongs.................

  I would like to see all guilty ones banned from flying for a very long time as well as fined.

  Would not be surprised if, in time,  other passengers take matters into their own hands just so they can reach their own respective destinations without diverting due to the foolish antics of others.





-


----------



## lvhmbh

I read an interview with the guy who said he'll use it again   I like to recline my seat one notch and the last time I flew it just went back.  I said "sorry" to the person behind me who actually hadn't had a problem with it.  Malfunctioning seats do happen.  I personally think the guy is a jerk.


----------



## MOXJO7282

This guy is a narcissist plain and simple. Tries to deceive people into thinking their seat is broken for his benefit. Will use it again because he doesn't care about others. 

He's a stiff and he must work for a stiff company because they made him fly coach to HK so he was tired he claims.

I feel its my right to recline and when I fly in coach I do so. Sometimes I feel the need to as to be more comfortable so why wouldn't I?


----------



## Chrisky

MOXJO7282 said:


> I feel its my right to recline and when I fly in coach I do so. Sometimes I feel the need to as to be more comfortable so why wouldn't I?



Well, that's all fine and dandy if there is enough space behind you to recline.  But I have been on flights where the person reclines their seat and the top of the seat is about 18" away from my face.  I cannot use my tray, I can barely get out of my seat to use the washroom and have to pull myself up by the reclined seat to get up.  

There have been a few times when my DH has to tell the person in front to raise their seat a bit, getting a dirty look back in the process.  Most people are considerate and only recline their seats a notch and check behind them to see if it is ok.  A little consideration for the passenger behind would go a long way.  Some people think only of their comfort and no one else.


----------



## Passepartout

I'm kind of surprised that the airlines haven't caught on to disabling ALL the recline mechanisms in standard coach and upping the price of 'Reclining, Premium Coach' seats. Just wait.....

Jim


----------



## Pompey Family

MOXJO7282 said:


> This guy is a narcissist plain and simple. Tries to deceive people into thinking their seat is broken for his benefit. Will use it again because he doesn't care about others.
> 
> He's a stiff and he must work for a stiff company because they made him fly coach to HK so he was tired he claims.
> 
> I feel its my right to recline and when I fly in coach I do so. Sometimes I feel the need to as to be more comfortable so why wouldn't I?



You feel it's your right to recline but others may feel that it's their right to be able to use their tray, watch their TV or even just be able to sit pain free. Unfortunately with the number of seats crammed into economy these days it simply isn't practical to have reclining seats.

Whenever I've flown long haul in economy I have always checked with the person behind me if they were happy for me to recline, it's simple courtesy and I don't know why so many people don't do it.

I'm now fortunate to be able to fly business or even first if the sales are timed right so I no longer have to endure economy but if I had to, as a 6' 3" bloke when someone reclines in front of me I am trapped and it makes an uncomfortable flight even more uncomfortable, I would definitely consider using a knee defender.


----------



## presley

I guess I do get around much.  The seats I've seen recline only go back a very small amount.  When the person in front of me does a full recline, it makes almost no difference on my side.  The only time it was annoying was on a Hawaii Airbus because the TV screens are already too close and the reclining makes them even closer and more uncomfortable to watch.  

For me the annoying people are usually behind me.  They keep putting their gross hands on my headrest whenever they get up or down.  Even when I not reclined, they have to use my headrest for leverage to get themselves up.  Extremely annoying.


----------



## dougp26364

Passepartout said:


> I'm kind of surprised that the airlines haven't caught on to disabling ALL the recline mechanisms in standard coach and upping the price of 'Reclining, Premium Coach' seats. Just wait.....
> 
> Jim



I've been a little surprised by this as well. The last America West flight (now USAirways soon to be American Airlines) had the seats so close together that, when the person in front of you reclined, you had virtually no choice but to do so yourself, just to keep your nose of the top of their head. Getting in/out of the seats in order to use the lavatory was like trying to climb a jungle gym. One had to grab the seat in front to keep from falling backwards as they attempted to exit the row. Needless to say, we've avoided flying USAirways since. Unfortunately the other airlines either have or are in the process of catching up. 

Eventually they'll either create more leg room and increase the prices to accomadate for the lost passengers per flight or, they'll disable the recline function in the cheapest coach class seats. My bet is they disable the recline function because everyone's shopping for the lowest fare possible.


----------



## wackymother

Once on a transatlantic flight, my husband (who is 6'3") was seated behind a guy who reclined his seat FULLY. His head was pretty much in DH's lap. I think the seat might have been broken, that's how far back it went. 

DH asked him to please take it up a couple of notches; he said no and closed his eyes to go to sleep. 

DH gave it some time, then wrenched his way out of his seat and asked a stewardess to ask the guy to move it. The stewardess came by and saw that the guy was "asleep" (he wasn't) and told DH that she didn't want to wake him. I switched w DH, but I had a middle seat, so he was still uncomfortable and now I had the guy in my lap. 

As dawn broke over the Atlantic Ocean, the guy woke up and pulled his seat up a little bit. Drank his coffee and splatted back down. 

Anyway, we made it to London, and as the plane was emptying...the guy turned to DH and told him that he talked too loud, that he had been SHOUTING IN HIS EAR the whole flight!


----------



## laurac260

wackymother said:


> Once on a transatlantic flight, my husband (who is 6'3") was seated behind a guy who reclined his seat FULLY. His head was pretty much in DH's lap. I think the seat might have been broken, that's how far back it went.
> 
> DH asked him to please take it up a couple of notches; he said no and closed his eyes to go to sleep.
> 
> DH gave it some time, then wrenched his way out of his seat and asked a stewardess to ask the guy to move it. The stewardess came by and saw that the guy was "asleep" (he wasn't) and told DH that she didn't want to wake him. I switched w DH, but I had a middle seat, so he was still uncomfortable and now I had the guy in my lap.
> 
> As dawn broke over the Atlantic Ocean, the guy woke up and pulled his seat up a little bit. Drank his coffee and splatted back down.
> 
> Anyway, we made it to London, and as the plane was emptying...the guy turned to DH and told him that he talked too loud, that he had been SHOUTING IN HIS EAR the whole flight!



I think I would have had had a hard time not letting my "restless leg syndrome" flare up on that flight!  

My kids are swimmers, and we spend ALOT of time sitting in uncomfortable bleachers, with some person's knees in our back, and another person's back in our knees.  But then, there's always the person who brings their stadium chair… at our pool, there just isn't room for them.  There was one guy, and no matter where I sat he always seemed to be right in front of me.  He was tall anyway, then he brought his stadium chair, and would lean back and open his paper.  Really?  Who brings a newspaper to a swim meet?  Well, I tolerated this for too long.  Finally, one day I got up to leave my spot and darn it, my "restless leg syndrome"   flared up as I was walking by.  My knee "jerked" and I just about sent the guy flying across the pool, paper and all.  

Funny, he stopped sitting near me after that.


----------



## am1

Pompey Family said:


> I'm now fortunate to be able to fly business or even first if the sales are timed right so I no longer have to endure economy but if I had to, as a 6' 3" bloke when someone reclines in front of me I am trapped and it makes an uncomfortable flight even more uncomfortable, I would definitely consider using a knee defender.



You do not have to do anything.  Just buy tickets for seats that you are comfortable with.


----------



## rickandcindy23

We have huge numbers of points sitting in our Chase account, simply waiting to transfer to the airline of our choice.  I check award seats to fly 1st class, and it's rarely cheap enough in points to fly First.  

So we fly Southwest almost all of the time (Chase points transfer to Southwest, too).  It's free for us with the way we have built miles, and I am okay with it.  Rick is tall and really needs more leg room, but I feel we should just deal with the lack of legroom. 

Flying to Hawaii is completely different.  We will always fly first.  I see no reason to fly economy when First is not that much more on Alaska. We usually have one award seat, so paying for one is fine. Rick's stepmom pays for her ticket gladly to be in first class because she is 86 and deserves it.  I agree with that.


----------



## wackymother

I actually think seats on planes should not recline. It leaves too much room for disagreement among passengers. You have so little personal space as it is.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Reclining seats were fine/do-able before airlines started to add row upon more row, thus reducing legroom =  intrusion into personal space.

Then the cramming started and has continued with the addition of even more rows (if that's possible).

It will continue to get worse and I'm not sure if it'll ever get better. The airlines own a part of this, too, as do entitled and moronic passengers.




.


----------



## Passepartout

wackymother said:


> I actually think seats on planes should not recline. It leaves too much room for disagreement among passengers. You have so little personal space as it is.



You should fly on the beloved (not) Alaska Q400's. The seat bottoms end about midway between your butt and knees, and the seats don't recline. They put a cart outside the plane for your carry-on, as nothing larger than a purse (and I question even the large 'satchel' type of those) will fit in the overhead. These carry the concept of 'a bus with wings' to the extreme.

Jim


----------



## am1

Passepartout said:


> You should fly on the beloved (not) Alaska Q400's. The seat bottoms end about midway between your butt and knees, and the seats don't recline. They put a cart outside the plane for your carry-on, as nothing larger than a purse (and I question even the large 'satchel' type of those) will fit in the overhead. These carry the concept of 'a bus with wings' to the extreme.
> 
> Jim



Yet porter offers a very good service using the Q400.  Mostly because the runway is short at the central hub.


----------



## Beaglemom3

My dear, late Dad was a USAF pilot. He always, always said that the loadmaster owned the flight and he was merely the jockey. 

He had actual _reverence_ for the loadmasters, always. 

I do think about this when boarding an aircraft now and seeing what's coming into the cabin as "carry on".


----------



## "Roger"

wackymother said:


> I actually think seats on planes should not recline. It leaves too much room for disagreement among passengers. You have so little personal space as it is.


I would be all for nothing but non reclining seats (I do not recline, not because I never want to, but consider it discourteous to the person behind me), but a possible compromise would be to set aside a section of seats that don't recline and people could opt for that section in their seat selection.  I realize that the proportions of seats dedicated to reclining vs. non reclining would never be exactly right, but this is no different than hotel rooms having king beds vs two doubles.  Early takers would get what they wanted and late takers would have to accept sitting in a mixed section which is what they currently have to sit in.

My suspicion is that the non- reclining section would be quite large as this would be the more popular.  Even some current recliners would start opting for the non-reclining section when they themselves experience a recliner leaning back into their face.

My vote for the most discourteous are those who recline their seats and then lean forward when they are served a drink or meal leaving their reclined seat sticking back into their neighbor's face.  (I have seen this more than a few times.)


----------



## DeniseM

On our flight to Hawaii this summer, there was a very petite lady, and a man with a large belly, in the 2 seats in front of us.

She sat down in the window seat, and then several minutes later, right before the flight left, he sat in the aisle seat.  He said, "Hi, it's me again!"  She mumbled, "Hi," with no enthusiasm, and looked away.  So either they were on the previous flight together, or maybe they spoke before the flight.  

Unfortunately for her, she hadn't put the arm rest down, and once he sat down - there was no way to put it down - he was 1/3 of the way into her seat.  She squeezed over against the window, to avoid being touched by him.

The seat belt sign came on, they made the announcement, did the safety talk, everything, and then the flight attendants did the last seat belt check  before take off.  This guy's seat belt was not fastened.  The flight attendant asked him to buckle his seat belt, and in a belligerent voice he answered, "NOT HAPPENING!"  The flight attendant paused at his seat to see if he was saying he wouldn't do it, or he couldn't do it.  After surveying his girth, she said, "I will be right back," and went and got an extension.

We watched this whole scene with some amusement (and relief that we were not in the same situation as the lady in front of us.)  However, we both wondered why in the world the guy didn't simply ask for an extension immediately.  He clearly knew he couldn't buckle the seat belt, because he didn't even try.  If he was trying to be discrete, he sure didn't accomplish that by being belligerent about it!

This burned a new "rule to live by," into my brain:  *ALWAYS put the arm rest down as soon as you sit down in your seat.*   (This goes double when I am sitting next to my own husband - 6'3"  260 lb., because he has no compunctions about squeezing me out what-so-ever!)


----------



## LisaH

I have had that happened to me in a slightly different twist. I was sitting in the aisle seat and a guy was sitting in the window seat. We thought we were going to be lucky with an empty seat in the middle but it wasn't meant to be. Before the plane was about to close the door, a family with two young kids boarded the plane. The husband sat in the front with a girl 3-4 years of age, and mom sat in the middle between me and the guy with the second baby (10-11 months?) on her lap. Throughout the flight, the baby screamed and kicked constantly, then finally slept with arms and legs stretching all the way into my seat. I could not move because I was afraid that if the baby was awakened, I was going to be subject to the screaming and kicking again. I had the uttermost sympathy for the mom as I had been there before (although my kids always had their own seats, and we didn't travel much when they were young). However, why the mother was not sitting with the other girl (therefore have a bit more room between the two seats) was just beyond me.


----------



## dougp26364

Passepartout said:


> You should fly on the beloved (not) Alaska Q400's. The seat bottoms end about midway between your butt and knees, and the seats don't recline. They put a cart outside the plane for your carry-on, as nothing larger than a purse (and I question even the large 'satchel' type of those) will fit in the overhead. These carry the concept of 'a bus with wings' to the extreme.
> 
> Jim



Yes, the beloved moped of the skies. At the moment we're booked on one for the final leg of our Hawaiian trip coming home. UAL announced they're trying to get rid of the smaller turboprop and regional jets with schedule changes coming at the end of this month. I'm really hoping we can avoid that flight. Those planes are so bad it's almost a consideration to do a bod way rental from a Denver and just drive the final leg home.


----------



## dougp26364

DeniseM said:


> On our flight to Hawaii this summer, there was a very petite lady, and a man with a large belly, in the 2 seats in front of us.
> 
> She sat down in the window seat, and then several minutes later, right before the flight left, he sat in the aisle seat.  He said, "Hi, it's me again!"  She mumbled, "Hi," with no enthusiasm, and looked away.  So either they were on the previous flight together, or maybe they spoke before the flight.
> 
> Unfortunately for her, she hadn't put the arm rest down, and once he sat down - there was no way to put it down - he was 1/3 of the way into her seat.  She squeezed over against the window, to avoid being touched by him.
> 
> The seat belt sign came on, they made the announcement, did the safety talk, everything, and then the flight attendants did the last seat belt check  before take off.  This guy's seat belt was not fastened.  The flight attendant asked him to buckle his seat belt, and in a belligerent voice he answered, "NOT HAPPENING!"  The flight attendant paused at his seat to see if he was saying he wouldn't do it, or he couldn't do it.  After surveying his girth, she said, "I will be right back," and went and got an extension.
> 
> We watched this whole scene with some amusement (and relief that we were not in the same situation as the lady in front of us.)  However, we both wondered why in the world the guy didn't simply ask for an extension immediately.  He clearly knew he couldn't buckle the seat belt, because he didn't even try.  If he was trying to be discrete, he sure didn't accomplish that by being belligerent about it!
> 
> This burned a new "rule to live by," into my brain:  *ALWAYS put the arm rest down as soon as you sit down in your seat.*   (This goes double when I am sitting next to my own husband - 6'3"  260 lb., because he has no compunctions about squeezing me out what-so-ever!)



I've actually been that person crowded out of my own seat. As I was reading your post I was thinking, ALWAYS put the armrest down first. 

Many years ago we were on a NWA flight departing from Kansas City. There was a huge man throwing a fit because he wanted a complimentary upgrade to first class. He was threatening legal action if he didn't get that first class seat because there was NO WAY he could fit in a regular seat (he was right about that). He did not care that the flight, including first class, was sold out. 

Fortunately I wasn't the passenger stuck next to this gigantic man and I felt sympathy for whomever was (except for his wife, who would occupy one seat next to him).  I've never understood why they didn't just remove this man from the flight. He was yelling, threatening and causing a huge scene at the gate. They really should have had him escorted from the building.


----------



## vacationhopeful

dougp26364 said:


> .... I've never understood why they didn't just remove this man from the flight. He was yelling, threatening and causing a huge scene at the gate. They really should have had him escorted from the building.



And those were the good, old days where a passenger (however rude) was still a paying customer. Today, your fare is NONREFUNDABLE - they got your money ... if you want to get where you paid to go, you keep your month shut as you empty your pockets, take off your shoes and get x-rayed.....all the name of SECURITY and SAFETY.

AND hope your plane departs near to its original time and with no unplanned side trips due to hissy-fits by another passenger(s).


----------



## Kal

When I'm in my seat waiting for others to board I keep looking at the people walking down the aisle.  As I await my seat companion(s) I almost grade each prospective person.  The scoring goes like this:

 No, never, no, maybe, no, no, no, WINNER, GREAT WINNER, no, NOT.

 Then a lifetime event on Southwest Airlines.  A head turner came strutting down the aisle wearing a break-away white lace dress.  Absolute 11 on a 1-10 scale!!! And OMG, she sits next to me!   Turns out she was a POLE-DANCER on the way to Las Vegas.  Extremely interesting conversation.  Then I finally asked why she decided to sit next to me.

 Her answer:  _"You looked safe"._  I thought my life ended at that moment!


----------



## BevL

My husband was having a lovely chat with a very attractive young woman, they were getting along famously and I was sitting across the aisle from him.  No worries from my end or anything and she seemed quite lovely.

At the end of the flight, they exchanged pleasantries and, "Hope you enjoy your vacation," type thing.  She then aced it with, "You remind me so much of my DAD."  I didn't laugh out loud but he was a bit crestfallen I think.

And mark me in the I never recline column.  I'm fine if someone reclines, it is what it is.  Difficult for Greg though as he's a big, tall man and now with mobility issues, it makes it even harder to move at all with someone in his lap.


----------



## VegasBella

And this is one reason I prefer to drive to my destination. I limit flying so I only do it every couple of years.


----------



## Luanne

As I read threads like this I have to laugh.  We are all really pretty spoiled.  We never lived through the times when the only way to get from one place to another was by horseback, or walking.  We didn't have to cross the country by covered wagon, or get from one continent to the other by boat (not in luxury cabins).  Our ancestors are probably rolling over in their graves, or rolling their eyes  at how bad we think we have it. :ignore:


----------



## dougp26364

VegasBella said:


> And this is one reason I prefer to drive to my destination. I limit flying so I only do it every couple of years.



We're taking less flights and looking for more drive to destinations at resorts that will accept our dogs. Aside from not having to go through all the BS that now goes along with flying, traveling is less expensive and our dogs can stay with us rather than having to stay at a pet resort (yes, they are a little pampered). 

We still fly a couple of times a year. Some destinations we enjoy are just to far to drive.


----------



## dougp26364

Luanne said:


> As I read threads like this I have to laugh.  We are all really pretty spoiled.  We never lived through the times when the only way to get from one place to another was by horseback, or walking.  We didn't have to cross the country by covered wagon, or get from one continent to the other by boat (not in luxury cabins).  Our ancestors are probably rolling over in their graves, or rolling their eyes  at how bad we think we have it. :ignore:



Maybe not but I have had to use the outhouse and pump drinking and bath water from a well. Fortunately only when we were at the farm and not at home but, I have had that experience. You haven't lived until going to the bathroom in the middle of the night involves getting dressed, a flashlight and rattling a stick around the hole before you sit down.


----------



## Trudyt623

This had been an entertaining thread to read. Thanks, for all the laughs.  I also have never noticed reclining seats to encroach on my space but I'm sure when I travel this holiday season it will be on my radar.  

P.s. I don't  think the woman was wrong, she stood up to a bully so kudos for her.


----------



## Southpaw

VegasBella said:


> And this is one reason I prefer to drive to my destination. I limit flying so I only do it every couple of years.



I agree wholeheartedly.  Twenty or so years ago, I would do the short hops (NJ to DC, NJ to BOS, NJ to Rochester, NY).  For the past 10 years, I drive distances like this.   

By the time you go through security outbound, wait for your bag (even if just on the jetway), if there is *any* delay, the drive is faster.  

The bonus is that, when I'm traveling on business, if the meeting ends early, I am on the road at a moment's notice!


----------



## Free2Roam

Trudyt623 said:


> P.s. I don't  think the woman was wrong, she stood up to a bully so kudos for her.



With the exception of the Sprite toss... she lost cool points with that move.


----------



## MOXJO7282

Chrisky said:


> Well, that's all fine and dandy if there is enough space behind you to recline.  But I have been on flights where the person reclines their seat and the top of the seat is about 18" away from my face.  I cannot use my tray, I can barely get out of my seat to use the washroom and have to pull myself up by the reclined seat to get up.
> 
> There have been a few times when my DH has to tell the person in front to raise their seat a bit, getting a dirty look back in the process.  Most people are considerate and only recline their seats a notch and check behind them to see if it is ok.  A little consideration for the passenger behind would go a long way.  Some people think only of their comfort and no one else.



Only recline their seat a notch? 

Maybe its me but I've never been on a flight where the coach seat reclined more that a notch to begin with. I think saying reclining puts you in the lap of the person behind you is an exaggeration.


----------



## Tia

Kal said:


> The scoring goes like this:
> 
> No, never, no, maybe, no, no, no, WINNER, GREAT WINNER, no, NOT.




 am sure I'd be a WINNER  hahaha


----------



## Trudyt623

FreeIn2010 said:


> With the exception of the Sprite toss... she lost cool points with that move.




Yes, I agree that she went too far by tossing the soda.


----------



## pedro47

Trudyt623 said:


> Yes, I agree that she went too far by tossing the soda.



Ditto, she totally went over the age with the soda tossing on his computer. This reclining seat issue is an airline design problem and that is my opinion only.


----------



## Phydeaux

As a frequent flyer, I've noticed a distinct correlation between infrequent flyers and choosing to recline their seat. Those that fly a lot will always ask the person behind them if they would mind if the seat were reclined a little. Never all the way back. 

So how do I know the frequent flyers from twice a year flyers? Simple. Just pay attention. It's obvious.


----------



## PigsDad

LisaH said:


> I have had that happened to me in a slightly different twist. I was sitting in the aisle seat and a guy was sitting in the window seat. We thought we were going to be lucky with an empty seat in the middle but it wasn't meant to be. Before the plane was about to close the door, a family with two young kids boarded the plane. The husband sat in the front with a girl 3-4 years of age, and mom sat in the middle between me and the guy with the second baby (10-11 months?) on her lap. Throughout the flight, the baby screamed and kicked constantly, then finally slept with arms and legs stretching all the way into my seat. I could not move because I was afraid that if the baby was awakened, I was going to be subject to the screaming and kicking again. I had the uttermost sympathy for the mom as I had been there before (although my kids always had their own seats, and we didn't travel much when they were young). *However, why the mother was not sitting with the other girl (therefore have a bit more room between the two seats) was just beyond me.*



Let me get this straight.  Two parents, a pre-schooler and an infant, three seats (separated -- a pair together and a solo seat further back).

And you thought the mother should have to take care of *both *the infant and the pre-schooler for the whole flight?  Just so you were not inconvenienced?  Good grief.

Did you offer to switch seats with her so she could have the aisle seat and a bit more room for the infant?

Kurt

P.S.  I do not understand why people get all upset about babies on a plane.  It seems that so many people are annoyed (or worse) at parents who bring them.  The only feeling I have ever had toward parents with an upset or crying kid on a plane is empathy.  If the sound bothers you, just put on some headphones.  It's not like it is the kid's fault.


----------



## dougp26364

MOXJO7282 said:


> Only recline their seat a notch?
> 
> Maybe its me but I've never been on a flight where the coach seat reclined more that a notch to begin with. I think saying reclining puts you in the lap of the person behind you is an exaggeration.



It sort of depends on the size of the person behind the one reclining. I'm 5'9" so, other than making it so I can't open a laptop on my tray table, it's not that big of a deal. I have cousins who range from 6'0" to 6'10". For them it is a big deal, no pun intended. With their size, if someone goes full recline, they pretty much are in their laps.


----------



## DeniseM

Kurt - I disagree - I would not appreciate having someone else's child laying across my seat either.  No, the child can't help it, but the parent can.  

If available, I would have asked to be moved to a different seat, to give the mom more room, and remove myself from the situation.



> throughout the flight, the baby screamed and kicked constantly, then *finally slept with arms and legs stretching all the way into my seat. I could not move because I was afraid that if the baby was awakened, I was going to be subject to the screaming and kicking again.* I had the uttermost sympathy for the mom as I had been there before (although my kids always had their own seats, and we didn't travel much when they were young).


----------



## PigsDad

DeniseM said:


> Kurt - I disagree - I would not appreciate having someone else's child laying across my seat either.  No, the child can't help it, but the parent can.


A little tolerance goes a long way.  When a lap child sleeps, their little arm or leg may extend out over a bit.  So what?  Asking to be moved is just fine, but suggesting that the poor mother should have had to deal with two kids and the husband sit alone just so someone is not "inconvenienced"?  I think that shows no empathy for a young family just trying to do the best they could given the situation.

Kurt


----------



## DeniseM

Lisa said that because of the child's position, she was afraid to even move - that would be extremely uncomfortable.   A sleeping child is like jello, it would have been very easy for the parent to reposition the child slightly so they weren't infringing on the person next to them.

Maybe the mom and dad could have traded off with the fussy baby.

Maybe they could have asked to sit together.

Maybe dad could have walked the fussy baby - I see this a lot on planes.


----------



## sjuhawk_jd

This Jerk has some nerves thinking that he has the best traveler IQ and that everyone else is clueless or just gives up after the seats fails to recline. Basically, he is a thief in my opinion, stealing others people money and rights. 

It suited him right that he had to fly Spirit. Now that he is famous, I hope every US airline (except Spirit) puts him on their "Do not fly" list

Note to all airlines: Make this part of the safety announcement: "Anyone found using a knee defender or similar device will be asked to go down on their knees and scrub all bathrooms in this plane. Their personal belongings and checking luggage will not be returned unless they do that". This will send the message to these spoiled Jerks.


----------



## DeniseM

Here is a link to a "Knee Defender" and how it works - I didn't know exactly what it was:

http://www.kneedefender.com/html2/how_to.htm

More info. about its "legality" - http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/04/travel/knee-defender-flight-legroom-fight/

Knee Defender's sales soar after incident:  http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/27/smallbusiness/knee-defender-sales/


----------



## Sandy VDH

At 6'0" I am more leg than torso, I have huge issues flying, because of my height and my bad knees combo. 

If I do not sit at a bulk head, which I try to all the time, just to eliminate the chair in front, I try to sit in E+.  However some flights this is not even an option or if you have an equipment change or one of those horrid little RJ planes, then it is hopeless.  I have my knees against the seat in front of me before they even recline. 

I had one as&h#le on one flight that kept ramming his seat back with his body because he wanted it to go back farther.  I had bruises on my knees and a limp for weeks from this inconsiderate passenger.  I mentioned that my knees were there and that just prompted them to try harder to move the seat back. 

I rarely put my seat back, I only do it when I am on a red eye and the person behind me is asleep.

Even better yet, I often upgrade to a biz class just to avoid this on long flights.


----------



## PigsDad

DeniseM said:


> Lisa said that because of the child's position, she was afraid to even move - that would be extremely uncomfortable.   *A sleeping child is like jello, it would have been very easy for the parent to reposition the child *slightly so they weren't infringing on the person next to them.


So why was she afraid to even move, then?  Something doesn't add up.  I think there is some exaggeration going on here.  We are talking about a <1 y.o. here -- not a very big child.  Most likely is that a hand or foot was hanging over the seat.  Like I said, a little tolerance goes a long way.



> Maybe they could have asked to sit together.


You _honestly _think that the family didn't request three seats together????  Really?



> Maybe the mom and dad could have traded off with the fussy baby.
> 
> Maybe dad could have walked the fussy baby - I see this a lot on planes.


Again, there were two kids and two parents.  So logically each parent needs to take one kid.  Given the seat configuration (2 and 1) and the children's age (lap child and pre-schooler), how _exactly _do you "trade off"?  Are you going to leave the pre-schooler in a seat alone with strangers as you walk up and down the aisle?  And getting up and walking is very problematic with seat belt signs, drink service carts, etc.  Maybe the mother thought it would be rude to constantly get up and down from her middle seat.

No, I think the parents did the best job they could given the difficult situation of having split seats.  The parent with the lap child had to sit in the single seat.  It's just too bad other people around them couldn't show them a little tolerance.

Kurt


----------



## vacationhopeful

Actually, the flight attendant could have asked the solo traveler to trade seats with Mom and infant ... putting Mom & Dad with their 2 kids in one set of 3 seats. 

UNLESS there was a difference in seat classifications (economy plus vs economy). 

Seats on some flights are picked as you load the plane - esp if the family booked late or forgot to do the SWA 24 hours before takeoff. *OR* there were NOT 3 seats together for the family to book. 

Or the family adult members are totally dysfunctional and rude - that might be more true than you can believe --- Dad takes the older (less demanding child) and wants to sit far, far away from wife and baby ... so as to sleep or relax as we ALL know, only Mom can take care of the baby (or female child or the air sick child) .... etc.


----------



## DeniseM

> So why was she afraid to even move, then? Something doesn't add up. I think there is some exaggeration going on here. We are talking about a <1 y.o. here -- not a very big child. Most likely is that a hand or foot was hanging over the seat. Like I said, a little tolerance goes a long way.



Really?  You weren't there, but now you are saying that the OP probably exaggerated and there wasn't a problem?  That is pure speculation on your part.  If you want to debate the issue fine, but don't make up new facts to fit your position.

It sounds like Lisa was very "tolerant" - she didn't ream out the mom, or complain to the flight attendant, or throw a glass of Sprite in her face.  It sounds like she sat quietly and tried to stay out of their way - that's pretty tolerant!


----------



## SueDonJ

Both of these people were entitled whackjobs and luckily I haven't yet come across anyone like them, and like to think that I'd stand up for myself or other underdogs but can't be sure.  I might be more inclined to just bear it rather than introduce more discomfort especially in such a confined space.

I'm little so don't care if the folks in front of me recline but I'd be much happier flying if folks would just do what I do - get on the plane, sit in your upright seat, open a book and don't move for the duration!  HAHAHA - how's that for entitlement?

I've been miserable on only two flights.  The first was the LAX-to-Kauai leg during which I got stark-raving-mad stir-crazy only two hours in.  Thank goodness Don and our daughter were my seatmates because I fidgeted all over that damn seat for the rest of the flight.  We sure learned that day that the next time we fly Boston-to-Hawaii we'll be breaking up the trip with a couple nights stopover on the west coast.  My second miserable flight was a few months ago, flying alone to Dallas.  It was a night flight at the end of a long week and my back hurt like the dickens.  Much as a I tried to not fidget it couldn't be helped and I'm very grateful that the ladies sharing the row were understanding.

Everything about Southwest Airlines flights pretty much made me just-this-side-of-miserable every time so a couple years ago I just stopped taking them.

I have voluntarily offered up a bulkhead seat to a very tall guy who obviously needed it more.  But I'm not sure if I deserve any goodwill credit.  The only reason I was in that seat was because my traveling mate uses a wheelchair and they placed us together.  I love my mother-in-law dearly but it wasn't a hardship to change seats.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada

I usually do recline for part of the flight, just a little, because although I am very short, I have back problems. I also bring a small pillow for lumbar support and a fold up stool to put my feet upon as otherwise they dangle, contributing to low back problems. If the person in front of me reclines into my space, I feel the need to recline to get back some space. That seems like a domino effect, but that's what happens. I have asked people in front to put their seat up when meals are served.
Liz


----------



## Luanne

PigsDad said:


> So why was she afraid to even move, then?  Something doesn't add up.  I think there is some exaggeration going on here.  We are talking about a <1 y.o. here -- not a very big child.  Most likely is that a hand or foot was hanging over the seat.  Like I said, a little tolerance goes a long way.
> 
> 
> You _honestly _think that the family didn't request three seats together????  Really?
> 
> 
> Again, there were two kids and two parents.  So logically each parent needs to take one kid.  Given the seat configuration (2 and 1) and the children's age (lap child and pre-schooler), how _exactly _do you "trade off"?  Are you going to leave the pre-schooler in a seat alone with strangers as you walk up and down the aisle?  And getting up and walking is very problematic with seat belt signs, drink service carts, etc.  Maybe the mother thought it would be rude to constantly get up and down from her middle seat.
> 
> No, I think the parents did the best job they could given the difficult situation of having split seats.  The parent with the lap child had to sit in the single seat.  It's just too bad other people around them couldn't show them a little tolerance.
> 
> Kurt



If you had ever met LisaH (which I have) you wouldn't question her post.  She is one of the nicest, most tolerant people I've met.  She's also a mom and I'll bet she traveled with her kids when they were little.


----------



## dougp26364

Beaglemom3 said:


> The airplane seat wars.......... assaulting v. usurping as I see it. Again, two wrongs.................
> 
> I would like to see all guilty ones banned from flying for a very long time as well as fined.
> 
> Would not be surprised if, in time,  other passengers take matters into their own hands just so they can reach their own respective destinations without diverting due to the foolish antics of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -



In the past, the airline which the offense occured on usually has banned those involved. The UAL FF is likely to find his account has been deleted, his FF miles forfited and he's banned from flying UAL for the remainder of his life or at least until it's merged with another airline and the records lost. That's likely to change his plans to use his seat defenders in the future.


----------



## Beaglemom3

dougp26364 said:


> In the past, the airline which the offense occured on usually has banned those involved. The UAL FF is likely to find his account has been deleted, his FF miles forfited and he's banned from flying UAL for the remainder of his life or at least until it's merged with another airline and the records lost. That's likely to change his plans to use his seat defenders in the future.



 Thanks. This is, hopefully, good news.



0


----------



## dougp26364

Beaglemom3 said:


> Thanks. This is, hopefully, good news.
> 
> 
> 
> 0



It won't stop them from moving to AA, Delta or SWA's.


----------



## Beaglemom3

I can't imagine flying to a dying loved one's bedside, a reunion, a vacation requiring a connecting flight, business trip, wedding................... whatever........ and missing it because of this nonsense.



/


----------



## Beaglemom3

dougp26364 said:


> It won't stop them from moving to AA, Delta or SWA's.



 I'd love to see them on everyone's "no fly" list. That would make my day.




.


----------



## Beaglemom3

From the Boston Globe, interesting & differing views and it seems that it boils down to property rights:


"You may not be 100 percent sure what you think about Vladimir Putin’s maneuvers in Ukraine, Burger King’s tax inversion, the indictment of Texas Governor Rick Perry, or Scotland’s independence referendum. But you know exactly where you come down on the Great Airline Reclining Seat Controversy, don’t you? 

Everyone has an opinion on the passenger in Row 12 who caused an uproar on a United flight from Newark to Denver when he used a plastic bracket called the “Knee Defender” to block the woman in front of him from reclining her seat. When a flight attendant told the man to remove the gadget — which United, like most airlines, prohibits — he refused. The infuriated woman in Row 11, reported the Associated Press, “then stood up, turned around, and threw a cup of water at him.” Whereupon the plane was diverted to Chicago, and the two passengers were ejected.

Three days later, another passenger was booted from another flight because of another struggle over legroom. American Airlines diverted a Miami-to-Paris flight to Boston, where Edmond Alexandre was arrested on charges of “interfering with a flight crew” after fighting when the seat in front him was reclined. 

Small wonder these stories have struck a nerve. You don’t have to be a frequent flyer to know how cramped air travel has become, or how maddening — not to mention kneecap- and laptop-endangering — it can be when the already minuscule space between you and the seat-back in front of you suddenly shrinks further because a passenger one row up leans back without warning. Nor is it hard to understand the frustration of a passenger with an aching back or a need to sleep who presses the recline button, only to discover that the seat has been deliberately immobilized by a fellow traveler.

RELATED | Christopher Muther: In defense of the Knee Defender 

But how did the battle between knee defenders and recliners turn into an all-or-nothing clash of rights? 


Christopher Muther: In defense of the Knee Defender

 Passenger in dispute plans to keep using Knee Defender
 Discuss: What do you think about reclining on planes?

“I own the right to recline, and if my reclining bothers you, you can pay me to stop,” asserts economics reporter Josh Barro in The Upshot, a New York Times politics and policy website. “If sitting behind my reclined seat was such misery . . . someone would have opened his wallet and paid me by now.”

Conversely, the Times’s international business editor, Damon Darlin, is just as adamant in defense of his right — not his wish or preference, mind you, but his right — to attach a disabling clamp to the seat in front of him.

*“The real problem is undefined property rights over the same four or five inches of space,” Darlin maintains. “The person with the recliner button holds an advantage. The Knee Defender reallocates the rights.” 

Au contraire, argues the Financial Times in an editorial. An airplane ticket “is a contract that guarantees very few things, but the right to recline your seat at cruising altitude is one of them.” 

A plane ticket, of course, guarantees no such thing. Just as a concert ticket doesn’t guarantee the right to view the stage unobstructed by a tall person right in front of you. Just as a hotel room reservation doesn’t guarantee the right not to be disturbed by sounds from guests in the adjacent room or the corridor. *

You can’t always get what you want, to coin a phrase. That’s routinely true of public accommodations, where our experiences — travel, dining, lodging, entertainment — must be shared with other human beings, in all their not-always-congenial variety. It makes life worse for all of us when people become so obsessed with their own satisfaction that they convince themselves they have a guaranteed right to it. Common courtesy and self-control used to be esteemed as indispensable to a healthy society. But the more we rely on law and regulation to maintain social order, the less we seem to emphasize good character and values. 

Most air travelers, most of the time, don’t descend into rudeness and selfishness. But as the obnoxious “I-have-a-right” mindset grows ever more entrenched, clashes like the one involving the Knee Defender are apt to proliferate. Barro wants to be paid not to recline into the lap of Darlin, sitting behind him. Darlin claims the freedom to “reallocate” Barro’s ability to move his seat. Compromise? Consideration? Thoughtfulness? Nothing doing.* For some people, the right to be a jerk trumps all. *"


----------



## dougp26364

Wow, undefined property rights. As I see it, the AIRLINE owns the property rights, not the passenger. If the airline says the seat can recline, and I assume they do otherwise that function would be disabled on all seats, just as it is on the row in front of the exit row, then the person sitting in the seat has been given approval by the airline, the true owner of all the space inside the cabin, to recline. 

I once had this discussion with our teenage son. I found alcohol in his room when he was underage. He informed me I had violated "his" personal space and had no right to search his room. I informed him that I owned the house and all the space that was in it. He offered to "rent" his room from me. I explained that, even as a renter, I still owned the space and would make all the rules involved in owning that space, which would involve all substances allowed within such space. Not until he purchased his own space would he have all the rights associated with such space.

Passengers do not own the space. They're simply paying customers paying to be transported from one place to another. They have no rights other than those granted by the airlines. There certainly are no property rights granted by the contract of carriage. It's stuff like this that gets all those contracts up to 100 pages when they should only be a 2 or 3.


----------



## pacodemountainside

*Suggested  Seat Reclining Etiquette*

Interesting air line does not bill unruly passenger(s).

http://online.wsj.com/articles/airl...nt-recline-1409780915?KEYWORDS=seat+reclining


----------



## PigsDad

DeniseM said:


> It sounds like Lisa was very "tolerant" - she didn't ream out the mom, or complain to the flight attendant, or throw a glass of Sprite in her face.  It sounds like she sat quietly and tried to stay out of their way - that's pretty tolerant!


I'm sure Lisa is a fine person (as another has attested on this thread).  However, I was calling her out on what she wrote:


> *However, why the mother was not sitting with the other girl (therefore have a bit more room between the two seats) was just beyond me.*


Not exactly the most tolerant or empathetic statement, IMO.  That is what struck a nerve with me.  I am so tired of people complaining about having to travel with children.  It seem like it is mostly people who A) have never had kids or B) are older and have perhaps forgotten the challenges of traveling with kids.

And as Forest Gump would say, "that's all I have to say about that".

Kurt


----------



## dougp26364

pacodemountainside said:


> Interesting air line does not bill unruly passenger(s).
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/articles/airl...nt-recline-1409780915?KEYWORDS=seat+reclining



If incidents increase, my bet is the wording in the contract of carriage changes to reflect the airlines right to collect damages if a oases gears action cause the airline to divert.


----------



## LisaH

Wow! Kurt, you were not there. How did you know I exaggerated? You probably would not feel the same way if you were on that plane.
The girl in the front was well behaved. In fact, part of the reason the baby was so fussy was because she wanted to play with the older sister. As a mom, I know my kids, when younger, would rather both sit with me instead of with my husband and I would not have a problem sitting with both kids. Had the mom asked me to trade the seat I might have considered, but she did not and frankly it would have made more sense to trade the seat with the other person sitting in the front so they could all be together. They didn't ask that person either. 
I tolerated enough on that plane. It's the parents choice to not buy a seat for their baby, but that does not give them the right to inconvinience others when they try to save some money.


----------



## Southpaw

PigsDad said:


> I do not understand why people get all upset about babies on a plane.  It seems that so many people are annoyed (or worse) at parents who bring them.  The only feeling I have ever had toward parents with an upset or crying kid on a plane is empathy.



I don't have kids so I am not used to the ruckus.  However, when I see an unruly kid on a flight, I tell myself that the parents had no choice but to fly with the kid(s) due to a family emergency.  I know it is usually fiction, but it gets me thru with my sanity intact.


----------



## VegasBella

LisaH said:


> Wow! Kurt, you were not there. How did you know I exaggerated? You probably would not feel the same way if you were on that plane.
> The girl in the front was well behaved. In fact, part of the reason the baby was so fussy was because she wanted to play with the older sister. As a mom, I know my kids, when younger, would rather both sit with me instead of with my husband and I would not have a problem sitting with both kids. Had the mom asked me to trade the seat I might have considered, but she did not and frankly it would have made more sense to trade the seat with the other person sitting in the front so they could all be together. They didn't ask that person either.
> I tolerated enough on that plane. It's the parents choice to not buy a seat for their baby, but that does not give them the right to inconvinience others when they try to save some money.



You're frustrated that people are making assumptions about you and your motives and your tolerance. How about you stop making assumptions about other people too?
Maybe they weren't just being cheap, maybe the flight only had three seats available. Maybe the baby was less likely to cry when separated from sis (maybe you don't actually know what the baby wanted.) Maybe, since they were nearly last to board they'd been told they'd get whatever seats they'd get and that's that, so that's why no one asked to trade seats.

The kind and charitable thing to do is to give others the benefit of the doubt. You haven't done that. So yes, you were better behaved than knee defender guy and his nemesis but you were not actually being a kind person on that plane.

Just for the record, when you travel with a young child and you buy them a seat rather than put them on your lap you need a car seat. That takes time, adds weight, and cannot be placed in certain seats. If you board late they probably won't even allow it. And it often requires making other people change seats. I know this because I have traveled that way a number of times. It's a challenge. I choose it because it's safer for the baby/child and because I do not trust baggage handlers with a car seat (seen too much damage) but it comes with inconvenience... for everyone. Some parents may choose to avoid such hassle and their choice is not to save money, it's to be less trouble for the flight.


----------



## presley

^Suddenly feel the urge to post about flying with kids.  On our first Hawaii trip, we didn't know there weren't assigned seats on inter island flights.  We had the whole trip booked by a travel agent and nothing ever said that.  When we boarded in Oahu to go to BI, we couldn't sit together.  All 4 of us were in different seats.  I had no idea that people wouldn't let me sit with my then 5 old.  He was about 3 rows away from me.  The families who boarded before us all wanted window seats and were all spread out everywhere.  He did okay and is a very quiet and introspective person.  I'm still irked that nobody would move, but I people will always be people.

Since then, I have seen many times a mom having to sit separate from their kid.  If there kid is obviously under 16, my husband and I split up so the mom can sit with her kid.  I still have never seen any other passengers offer to move for that.  People who don't want to sit next to someone's kid can easily offer to switch seats and solve that problem while the plane is still still loading.


----------



## LisaH

VegasBella, you are right. It may not have anything to do with money. Whatever the reason is ( and you listed plenty), it does not mean that parents should have no concern to the other passengers. That's my point. 
Traveling with kids is not easy and it requires planning. I have been there and done that. If by switching seats that mom and two kids would have more room and perhaps calm the baby down, I would have done that. I still don't know why that's so wrong to suggest.  
And by the way, Unlike the knee defender, I didn't DO anything on that plane. My crime is to mention the incident here. Guess I have to be careful next time when I post on TUG so I don't get attacked for being unkind and lack of empathy.
This will be my last post on this topic.


----------



## Ken555

LisaH said:


> Unlike the knee defender, I didn't DO anything on that plane. My crime is to mention the incident here. Guess I have to be careful next time when I post on TUG so I don't get attacked for being unkind and lack of empathy.
> This will be my last post on this topic.




I'm glad you wrote about your experiences and contributed to the discussion. I suggest you ignore those who suggest you did wrong. You did absolutely right, and certainly have a right to complain and inform us about the situation. Sorry you had to deal with it - I only hope I would be as courteous as you should I be in a similar experience in future.

I find it interesting that there are a number of comments about what regular travelers do in regards to reclining seats...and are certain about their opinions. In the past, I traveled quite frequently by air and it's usually easy to identify those who are experienced travelers and those who are not, those on business and those not, etc. I still fly about 10-15 times per year (though I would prefer it to be less), and I was on a plane yesterday. 

On yesterday's flight, we were told it was a completely full flight. No one complained. I noticed a few people recline their seats near me, as I did about half an inch for a better angle, but no egregious in-your-face all-the-way-back reclining. I was conscious that the row behind me was the first standard row with less space than I had.

There were a number of children on the flight (though none under three, I suspect) and no issues at all. At least one family with 3-4 children, all older than 10, were split up across the plane and boarded at the last minute. No issues. And, none of their neighbors offered to move. Of course, they were the last to board and I'm sure people felt that there was no time to move, etc. I've seen many offer to move in the past once airborne, but not yesterday.  I've done it myself several times, especially to/from Hawaii (once I offered to move and after I was in the new seat I was asked to move again by that neighbor, and I did...musical chairs for 10 minutes). 

I think we need to have some perspective after all the complaints here about air travel and the articles of late. The vast majority of flights don't have any significant problems. Many are even pleasant, as mine was yesterday, though I won't go so far as to say enjoyable. The constant negatively here about flying certainly got to me this week as I preparing to fly and I wasn't in a good mood when arriving at the airport yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it affects others, too. So, I'm going to ignore all the flying doomsayers on TUG from now on. Relevant experiences are always welcome, but I will completely discount all those who say they've stopped flying in favor of driving because flying was so bad, etc. Thats your choice and I respect it. But now that you've made that choice, you really have no basis to comment on current flying behavior other than the dramatic articles and news stories about the few problems which become crazy enough to land a plane, etc.

Anyway, I've got another five planes to tolerate this week before I get back home, including flying on 9/11, so forgive me if I don't comment much more on these threads.


Sent from my iPad


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## VegasBella

Most any mass transit will have similar problems. It's not limited to air travel. The seat reclining issue is an issue on trains and buses just as much as on airplanes (with the exception that there's usually a bit more room on trains than either buses or planes). 

But somehow, when traveling by bus or train people aren't often as worked up as they are on a plane. That's probably because there aren't as many onerous security measures and also because they view airplanes as more dangerous (even if statistically they're wrong about that).

For those who want to avoid crying babies or knee defender users etc. there's always the option to charter a plane yourself. 

Personally, I think that air travel (even commercial, even economy seats) is such a luxury that no one really has the right to complain about it. Take it or leave it, but don't be obnoxious and complain about other passengers who simply have slightly different values than you (example - the mother who values her child's safety and her own sanity over your desire to fly without having to hear a baby cry). 50 or so years ago only the wealthy could afford it. Now, only those who are wealthy by a global scale can afford it. There are still millions who can't. So if you're going to do it, accept it for what it is. It's only now affordable to the average American _because _of some of these inconveniences.

Also, maybe I'm biased because I recognize my luxury of being able to decline air travel: I've been that passenger who has said, "Oh, this flight is going to be horrible due to XYZ. So, I will take another flight or drive. Please let me exit now." I won't stand for being separated from my family or being rushed on or off the plane. I simply refuse. If they charge me, fine. But I won't be bullied into doing something I don't want to do. I think that may be part of the issue, too. People don't want to lose their money or have to pay extra so they get bullied into accepting air travel terms they wouldn't normally accept and then they whine about it later.


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## DeniseM

LisaH said:


> And by the way, Unlike the knee defender, I didn't DO anything on that plane. My crime is to mention the incident here. Guess I have to be careful next time when I post on TUG so I don't get attacked for being unkind and lack of empathy.
> This will be my last post on this topic.



Lisa - thank you for posting, and I'm sorry that you got broadsided by a few  folks who apparently enjoy sitting by a fussy crying child for hours.    

Hopefully, karma will get them, and they will get to enjoy this activity on their next flight. 

BTW - "Whining" is a fully approved activity on TUG - without whining, TUG would collapse, so please, everyone, feel free to whine all you want.


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## "Roger"

Ken555 said:


> I'm glad you wrote about your experiences and contributed to the discussion. I suggest you ignore those who suggest you did wrong. You did absolutely right, and certainly have a right to complain and inform us about the situation. Sorry you had to deal with it - I only hope I would be as courteous as you should I be in a similar experience in future.


+1




Ken555 said:


> I find it interesting that there are a number of comments about what regular travelers do in regards to reclining seats...and are certain about their opinions....On yesterday's flight, we were told it was a completely full flight. No one complained. I noticed a few people recline their seats near me, as I did about half an inch for a better angle, but no egregious in-your-face all-the-way-back reclining.


+2

My experience, when I look around a plane, is that most people either do not recline their seats at all or do so, but only an inch or two at most.  My assumption (and, yes, I am going to make an assumption) is that most people are conscious of not wanting to cause their fellow travelers any additional discomfort beyond what they already have to experience in extremely tight quarters.  

It saddens me that here and on other threads elsewhere, those who openly talk about the discomfort that they have experienced are labeled whiners, exaggerators, or, to the more extreme, liars and thieves.  As you note Ken, most people on planes try their best to be considerate to others and that is something to be thankful for.


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## markel

time to move on.


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## geoand

PigsDad said:


> I'm sure Lisa is a fine person (as another has attested on this thread).  However, I was calling her out on what she wrote:
> 
> Not exactly the most tolerant or empathetic statement, IMO.  That is what struck a nerve with me.  I am so tired of people complaining about having to travel with children.  It seem like it is mostly people who A) have never had kids or B) are older and have perhaps forgotten the challenges of traveling with kids.
> 
> And as Forest Gump would say, "that's all I have to say about that".
> 
> Kurt



Pot calling the kettle black?


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## pacodemountainside

*More of SOS!*

Having ridden NYC subways when Metro North was on strike I have to disagree with  Jeff Price.

Standing on subway train  with arms pinned to sides by warm  sometimes sweaty and  smelly bodies is not a realistic comparison to at least sitting and getting a free glass of ice water to flick with.

Making a timely  evacuation when seats are reclined   is  definitely a concern.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/...lier-exposes-soaring-discontent#disqus_thread


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## dougp26364

pacodemountainside said:


> Having ridden NYC subways when Metro North was on strike I have to disagree with  Jeff Price.
> 
> Standing on subway train  with arms pinned to sides by warm  sometimes sweaty and  smelly bodies is not a realistic comparison to at least sitting and getting a free glass of ice water to flick with.
> 
> Making a timely  evacuation when seats are reclined   is  definitely a concern.
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/business/...lier-exposes-soaring-discontent#disqus_thread



If memory serves me correctly, the flight attendents are instructed to get the seats into the full upright positions in the event of an emergency landing. Of course that doesn't mean passengers will comply but, reclined seats shouldnt be an issue for evacuations. Even for normal take-off's and landings they require the seats to be in their full upright positions. If it ever came to a point that an emergancy situation cropped up that they weren't able to instruct passengers to put their seats up, I submit that it probably wouldn't make a difference anyway.


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