# Would you buy a resale timeshare right now?



## dsrbp (May 30, 2010)

Hello all:

Considering all the negative things I have seen in this forum regarding Starwood i.e. increase in maintenance fees, Interval issues, etc.  I would like to hear from members if they would buy a resale timeshare from Westin right now considering these issues regarding Starwood?  Do the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages or should I be looking at purchasing something else - fractional ownership? I was thinking about purchasing a Westin Kierland resale timeshare. Thanks for your responses.


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## LisaRex (May 30, 2010)

The only one I'd even consider buying right now would be WKV platinum 2 bdrm.  The rest I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.  Rising MFs and delinquencies are very troublesome, with no light at the end of the tunnel in sight.  

Of course, I'm lazy.  I don't want to spend hours trying to get good exchanges.  I want to call, reserve a week with minimal fuss, and go on with my life.


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## DeniseM (May 30, 2010)

It really depends on what you want to do with it.  What are your goals for a new purchase?


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## dsrbp (May 30, 2010)

*Reply to Denise*

Plans were to use Kierland for vacation and also travel to mandatory resort and use Interval for other exchanges.


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## dsrbp (May 30, 2010)

plans were to use Kierland to vacation, vacation at other mandatory resorts, and use Interval.


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## vacationtime1 (May 30, 2010)

Kierland is a wonderful resort and it is the best value for StarOption trades.

But it is no better for Interval exchanges than an inexpensive voluntary resort that you can purchase for $500 rather than the $17,500 +/- that a 148,100 SO Kierland unit will cost you (and the MF's would be lower as well).


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## dsrbp (May 30, 2010)

If you want to vacation in the mandatory resorts is it worth owning a mandatory resort?


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## J&JFamily (May 30, 2010)

dsrbp said:


> If you want to vacation in the mandatory resorts is it worth owning a mandatory resort?



If I am interpreting your questions correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), you might be under the impression that if you buy resale at a mandatory resort you can only use staroptions at other mandatory resorts.  Actually, if you buy at a mandatory resort you can use staroptions at ANY resort within the SVO system, not just other mandatory resorts.  That is the main reason for why mandatory resorts sell for more than voluntary resorts (for the most part) on the resale market.


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## DanCali (May 30, 2010)

dsrbp said:


> If you want to vacation in the mandatory resorts is it worth owning a mandatory resort?[/QUOT
> 
> 
> First off, if you have Staroptions (whether because you bought from the developer or resale at a mandatory resort) you can travel to all Starwood resorts,mandatory AND voluntary, via internal exchanges.
> ...


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## josh2268 (May 30, 2010)

Are SVN exchanges populated by only people that are a part of the SVN system ? 

 For example if a 100% voluntary resort like SDO has all the original owners resell ownership, and not pass on inclusion of SVN, does that mean SDO will no longer have any availability for other starwood resort owners to exchange via SVN ?


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## vacationtime1 (May 30, 2010)

josh2268 said:


> Are SVN exchanges populated by only people that are a part of the SVN system ?
> 
> For example if a 100% voluntary resort like SDO has all the original owners resell ownership, and not pass on inclusion of SVN, does that mean SDO will no longer have any availability for other starwood resort owners to exchange via SVN ?



No.  StarOptions work at any Starwood TS, assuming availability.  But you cannot use them outside of your home resort until the 8 month mark.

SDO is an easy exchange -- via Interval or StarOptions.  At least it used to be an easy Interval exchange under the old rules.


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## Ken555 (May 31, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> SDO is an easy exchange -- via Interval or StarOptions.  At least it used to be an easy Interval exchange under the old rules.



SDO is also an easy II getaway, so once you have II membership you can simply rent it for less than your MF.


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## SDKath (May 31, 2010)

I know you all love WKV so much but the MF's have risen to over $1300 now, fast approaching WMH.  And even though it's M, it's $17,000 for a week!  It would buy you a LOT of non-mandatory resorts!  I love Kierland but I frankly think that SVV is a waaay better deal if you want M resort (and it's under $2000 now for 81,000SOs).

Katherine


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## DanCali (May 31, 2010)

SDKath said:


> I know you all love WKV so much but the MF's have risen to over $1300 now, fast approaching WMH.  And even though it's M, it's $17,000 for a week!  It would buy you a LOT of non-mandatory resorts!  I love Kierland but I frankly think that SVV is a waaay better deal if you want M resort (and it's under $2000 now for 81,000SOs).
> 
> Katherine



If MFs stay where they are and someone is buying mostly for the SOs  I see your point. With the 30% increase in 2010 the market is probably pricing some continuation in that bad trend (or spooked owners are dumping units), so prices at SVV are attractive. Time will tell...


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## jerseygirl (May 31, 2010)

The amount of time it takes to find exchanges on II is greatly exaggerated on this board!  


When I wake up in the morning, I make a pot of coffee.
I then turn on my laptop and check Interval right after I check email, using the "search all destinations" feature.
Before the coffee is done, in approximately 2 minutes or less, I can tell you every great exchange that's out there.  Now, great is in the eyes of the beholder, of course.  For example, I don't look for ski resorts .. I'm a beach person.  And, my eyes find my version of  "great locations" in less than 15 seconds -- then it's simply a matter of clicking on those locations and seeing which resorts are available.  
Total search time < Time it takes to make a pot of coffee!

It takes less time than calling Starwood, providing your name, address, email address, etc. for the 17,000th time!  And, there are plenty of good "prime weeks" available for those who can plan 9-12 months in advance (or travel last minute) --- very similar timeframe to internal Starwood trading.

Yes, there are reasons that owning a mandatory resort is a good thing.  But, to pretend that "ease in trading" is one of them is not exactly accurate.


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## jarta (May 31, 2010)

jerseygirl,   ...   The time is about the same.

The ease is that someone who knows the computer inventory does the search for you for Staroption trading.  There is no learning curve - as gentle as it really is - to master for II.  With Staroptions, you call, ask about a week and someone does it for you.  And, they will gladly do alternate searches for you until they find something.

The ease is also that the Starwood inventory held by Starwood is usually much larger and there are more desireable weeks than the Starwood inventory of weeks in II.  A "hit" is easier to find through Starwood.  So, the searches need not be made as often and, when made, are more likely to find a "hit."

In terms of the trades that can be found on II, II trades can definitely be advantageous.  2-br for 1-br trades are often possible.  Non-Starwood resorts are possible.  Those types of trades are not possible using Staroptions.  You can trade to go to all types of places using II.

The external II system and the internal SVN Staroptions system are just different.  Neither has a "lock" on all the advantages.  What I don't understand is the number of posts attacking the value of SVN Staroption trading on TUG.  Why always knock one at the expense of the other?  It sounds to me like "sour grapes" by people who do not have the Staroption ability to trade.  

One big advantage Staroptions weeks have is the ability to drop them into II if you find you can't get the internal trade you want using Staroptions.  I always think 2 options of finding a week are better than 1.  And, I think that is the problem bugging most critics of Staroptions.

As for the topic this thread is supposed to be about "Would you buy a resale timeshare right now?", I happen to believe that resale prices are as low as they will go.  So, if you believe the timeshare way of vacationing will weather the storm and you are careful what you buy and you do not overbuy, you cannot lose less money by acting on that belief (whether you buy Starwood or something else).   ...   eom


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## Twinkstarr (May 31, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> The amount of time it takes to find exchanges on II is greatly exaggerated on this board!
> 
> 
> When I wake up in the morning, I make a pot of coffee.
> ...




I agree it doesn't take long to search II, but then again I don't find it that time consuming to book in my systems either.

Yes Disney makes you give your memeber # and address but I'm usually off the phone in about 10 minutes. But that's because I'm booking at 11/7 months, I know exactly what I want or at 7 months have my A B C choices. Last few times I've had the cast members thank me for being at easy customer .

The longest part IMHO, is the BS they have to read to you after you make your reservation. Cancellation rules etc. 

Wyndham is pretty cool with the online booking at 10 months(like 8 months in the *wood universe).


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## clymberz (May 31, 2010)

Can an SDO resale owner call Starwood directly and get a "jump" on availability versus the person looking in II?  How does that work, please?  thanks

(long time fence sitter on buying a resale SDO)


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## DeniseM (May 31, 2010)

clymberz said:


> Can an SDO resale owner call Starwood directly and get a "jump" on availability versus the person looking in II?  How does that work, please?  thanks
> 
> (long time fence sitter on buying a resale SDO)



An SDO resale owner cannot make a reservation with Starwood, except to reserve the week you own at SDO, during the season you own, and you can do that at 12 mos. out.  To trade with Starwood, you must have Staroptions and a resale at SDO does not have Staroptions.

With II exchanges, Starwood is not involved, except you call them to designate your week for trading and they notify II.  Once your week is available to trade, everything is done through II - Starwood is not involved.  The earliest you can designate a unit for trading is Jan. 1, 12 mos. before the the use year and the deposit will be good for approx. 30 mos. - it expires in 30 mos. at the end of June.

You do have priority with II for exchanges into other Starwood resorts.  Starwood owners can reserve other Starwood deposits for 3 days before nonStarwood owners can access them - but this is done through II.

If that's not what you were asking, please restate.


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## l2trade (Jun 1, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> The amount of time it takes to find exchanges on II is greatly exaggerated on this board!
> ...
> Yes, there are reasons that owning a mandatory resort is a good thing.  But, to pretend that "ease in trading" is one of them is not exactly accurate.



I couldn't agree more!   

Yes, if I didn't already own a bunch of timeshares, I would buy a resale SDO timeshare right now.  

I think the deal with II is all about perception and principle with the new Starwood/II system changes.  Many of us, myself included, complained about the new system based on principle.  Amongst those of us who own SDO and login to II all the time, we know the differences and can discuss the nuances of trade power differences and why we are upset about it.  These details can be easily lost on a newbie or scare potential buyers away.

To be clear, there is no shortage of plenty of great trades available on II with SDO on any given day.  I am extremely happy with my II vacations over the past year.  That was never the point of our complaints.  It is not about black or white, but about shades of gray.  With some flexibility and planning, you can easily score awesome trades with SDO.  Do I wish we could have back the old system? You bet!  Did I sell my SDO weeks?  No way!  IMHO, SDO simply cannot be beat in a purchase price / ongoing MF cost comparison with most other name brand resorts.


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## clymberz (Jun 1, 2010)

Denise, thanks.  You and l2trade's posts have been very helpful.  Now I just have to wait until I find the right one come across ebay (2br and 1-52, annual).  From what I understand, best bets are to reserve the Spring Training weeks, and to do that, I'd probably missed the window for 2011 (past 1 year out).  So if I buy an SDO I have to be cognizant of which year's MF I have to pay.  

For example, one ebay sale required payment of 2010 MF.  Even after paying 2010 and 2011 MF, it wouldn't be until 2012 that I'd get the real "prime" trades.  I'm sure there's good stuff to occupy my time between now and 2012, but that has been one reason why I've been slow to act.  I keep looking....


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## DanCali (Jun 1, 2010)

clymberz said:


> From what I understand, best bets are to reserve the Spring Training weeks, and to do that, I'd probably missed the window for 2011 (past 1 year out).



Best bet for what? 

If you are going to try to rent it out then yes... but you didn't even mention this as an option you were seeking.

If you are going to occupy it, reserve when you want to go...

If you want to trade then it doesn't matter what you reserve because they cancel your reservation anyway before you deposit. Starwood will deposit a week of their choice and your trading power will be an an average of high, medium and low seasons. In fact, if I were Starwood, I would take your spring break reservation, rent it out myself on spg.com, and deposit some random unreserved summer week which is still in the 1-52 season.... Similarly, you have no idea what is getting deposited on behalf of other owners from other Starwood resorts. This was the point I made about lack of transparency with Starwood II deposits...

Nothing wrong with buying SDO and playing the trading game. But make sure you know the rules before you play just so you are not unpleasantly surprised if you discover the rules later.


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## l2trade (Jun 1, 2010)

clymberz said:


> Denise, thanks.  You and l2trade's posts have been very helpful.  Now I just have to wait until I find the right one come across ebay (2br and 1-52, annual).  From what I understand, best bets are to reserve the Spring Training weeks, and to do that, I'd probably missed the window for 2011 (past 1 year out).  So if I buy an SDO I have to be cognizant of which year's MF I have to pay.
> 
> For example, one ebay sale required payment of 2010 MF.  Even after paying 2010 and 2011 MF, it wouldn't be until 2012 that I'd get the real "prime" trades.  I'm sure there's good stuff to occupy my time between now and 2012, but that has been one reason why I've been slow to act.  I keep looking....



For II exchange purposes, booking a prime week is the old system.  You could wait until Dec 2010 to deposit the 2010 week and it will have the same trading value as if you booked and cancelled your 2010 spring training week in March 2009.  The only difference is less time left to find an exchange.  But, that should not be a problem at all.  I see plenty of choices every time I log in to II (daily).

The only reason I might want to book a Spring Training week is if I wanted to visit my home resort at that time, rent it to a private party or go down the brown path with an alternate exchange company.  I'd much rather trade my usage in II.


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## DeniseM (Jun 1, 2010)

clymberz - Starwood and II changed the exchange rules in August.  For all the details, see the FAQ at the top of the forum.


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## James1975NY (Jun 1, 2010)

dsrbp said:


> If you want to vacation in the mandatory resorts is it worth owning a mandatory resort?



If you are interested in StarOptions, purchase at a mandatory resort. This does not mean that you only have to travel to mandatory resorts. You will have access to all SVN resorts provided that you are purchasing at a resort that transfers with StarOptions:

1.) Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West phases) - best price on resale, higher maintenance fees per StarOption.
2.) Westin Kierland Villas - higher sales price but better maintenance fees per StarOption
3.) Westin Ka'anapali - I would only recommend purchasing here if you plan to travel to Maui regularly and you want to travel during peak times. If you want access to weeks 51/22 at the Maui property(ies), you need to purchase those weeks (premium price). All in all, higher sales price, higher maintenance fees. Not a recommended buy if you just want StarOptions.
4.) Harborside Resort at Atlantis - Buy because you want to go there religiously. Phase I offers all fixed weeks so if you purchase in this phase, be happy with the week that you are deeded. Changing weeks is difficult in phase I. Phase II offers mostly true float weeks which are first come, first serve. Higher sales price, highest maintenance fees. 
5.) Westin St. John - Same as HRA. Phase I (Hillside Villas) are all fixed weeks. Phase II (Bay Vista) offers true float inventory.


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## DanCali (Jun 1, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> If you are interested in StarOptions, purchase at a mandatory resort. This does not mean that you only have to travel to mandatory resorts. You will have access to all SVN resorts provided that you are purchasing at a resort that transfers with StarOptions:
> 
> ......
> 
> 5.) Westin St. John - Same as HRA. Phase I (Hillside Villas) are all fixed weeks. Phase II (Bay Vista) offers true float inventory.




I thought WSJ only Phase I was mandatory? or are they both?


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## Transit (Jun 1, 2010)

*Sheraton Desert Oasis/Sheraton Broadway Plantation*

Standard advise would be to buy the resort and season you want to travel but if you want to play the game.SDO/SBP one bedrooms or locking off (2 bedrooms) and trading each side are still best bets. Low cash layout. Off season you can travel just about anywhere any other SVO unit can. Home resorts are nice. Most trades are either even or up trades. The most difficult Mandatory SVN resorts are hard to get even when in SVN (Although not impossible).Even after the Starwood/II new rules lowered trading power these units still pull good trades just not the top of line trades they used to pull. Maintenance fees have risen but are still low enough to get great value from these units.


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## K2Quick (Jun 1, 2010)

Transit said:


> Even after the Starwood/II new rules lowered trading power these units still pull good trades just not the top of line trades they used to pull.



I don't believe that has been demonstrated to date (not being able to see top-of-the-line trades).  I have yet to see a sighting on the sightings board that SDO new rules hasn't been able to see.  The one thing I have noticed is that the new rules deposit seems to have the quality filter in place so I don't see as much of the "lower quality" resorts that I used to be able to see.


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## DanCali (Jun 1, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> I don't believe that has been demonstrated to date (not being able to see top-of-the-line trades).  I have yet to see a sighting on the sightings board that SDO new rules hasn't been able to see.  The one thing I have noticed is that the new rules deposit seems to have the quality filter in place so I don't see as much of the "lower quality" resorts that I used to be able to see.



Aren't "sightings" almost by definition not top of the line trades? (since they are what is left over after ongoing trade requests)


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## James1975NY (Jun 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I thought WSJ only Phase I was mandatory? or are they both?



Very good point!!! Thanks DC....I believe you are correct. This resort is not one that I sell for StarOption usage so it never stuck. Maybe others can chime in to reconfirm but I am leaning your way on this...


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## K2Quick (Jun 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Aren't "sightings" almost by definition not top of the line trades? (since they are what is left over after ongoing trade requests)



I agree with that.  However, the the only way you can semi-reasonably compare trading power is to like at inventory available for instant exchange.


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## Transit (Jun 1, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> I don't believe that has been demonstrated to date (not being able to see top-of-the-line trades).  I have yet to see a sighting on the sightings board that SDO new rules hasn't been able to see.  The one thing I have noticed is that the new rules deposit seems to have the quality filter in place so I don't see as much of the "lower quality" resorts that I used to be able to see.



I had deposits with RCI and some of the top shelf resorts there that were available in the past have been eliminated from view ,Manhattan Club and  most SO cal resorts just to name a few. In II many of the same resorts will show up but smaller rooms, lots of E's and 1 bedrooms compared to the plethora of 2 bedrooms we used to see.The quality filter has been in place long before the new rules. Sometimes Map searches and area searches can get around the quality filter.


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## Transit (Jun 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Aren't "sightings" almost by definition not top of the line trades? (since they are what is left over after ongoing trade requests)



Not necessarily so.Many of the sightings posted are bulk deposits and still if you don't have the trade power you can't see them.Some posters can see a bunch of 2 bedrooms in a bulk deposit where others can only see 1 bedrooms and studios.


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## jarta (Jun 1, 2010)

James1975NY,   ...   Hillside (Phase I) at WSJ = mandatory.  Bay Vista (Phase II) at WSJ = voluntary.   ...   eom


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## DanCali (Jun 1, 2010)

Transit said:


> Not necessarily so.Many of the sightings posted are bulk deposits and still if you don't have the trade power you can't see them.Some posters can see a bunch of 2 bedrooms in a bulk deposit where others can only see 1 bedrooms and studios.



Fair enough, although the bulk deposits should still be what's left over after ongoing requests, I see your point.

So I'm curious how much of the success of the 2 for 1 trading strategy (Starwood to Starwood) depends on developer bulk deposits? It seems to me that if these weeks were deposited one at a time you'd be much less likely to grab them. The fact that they are bulk deposited gives savvy tuggers ample time (several days until the deposits are gone) to see a sighting post and act on it. If the bulk deposits stopped you'd be much less likely to see a 2BR individual deposit make it past an ongoing trade request and if it did it's be gone in a matter of minutes. Or is that not the case?


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## Transit (Jun 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Fair enough, although the bulk deposits should still be what's left over after ongoing requests, I see your point.
> 
> So I'm curious how much of the success of the 2 for 1 trading strategy (Starwood to Starwood) depends on developer bulk deposits? It seems to me that if these weeks were deposited one at a time you'd be much less likely to grab them. The fact that they are bulk deposited gives savvy tuggers ample time (several days until the deposits are gone) to see a sighting post and act on it. If the bulk deposits stopped you'd be much less likely to see a 2BR individual deposit make it past an ongoing trade request and if it did it's be gone in a matter of minutes. Or is that not the case?



   Trading is funny business. Some exchangers have put in on going requests then the unit they were requesting shows up on the sightings board ???


    I have no experience with the II 2 for one trades but would like to hear more about trades made .(I've been following that thread) 


    Great trades are objectionable everyone knows what they prefer.The traders that check everyday get candy. Some of the leftovers that are posted are great trades if they work for you.Some of the sightings that are not bulk linger before they are scooped up and some are gone instantly .

 SDO and SBP are still getting some great trades. I would only buy a mandatory to use home resort or SVN not for II. Yes, I would buy a resale now.


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## stive1 (Jun 1, 2010)

I finally jumped into Starwood with 2 resale buys about one year ago.  I wanted to get in as cheap as possible and I purchased 2 one bedroom units...one at SVR and one at SDO, both week 1-52 usage.  I paid a buck for these properties.    I also have just purchased a 2 bedroom lockoff at SDO also a week 1-52 for $100 based on the good experience I have had so far in trading my one bedroom units on II.  So far I have made 3 trades with the one bedroom units, each time I have been able to get a 2 bedroom unit.  Two of the trades have been to Westin Lagunamar for the first week in May 2010 and the first week in February 2011 and the third trade is to Vistana Beach Resort for the last week of March 2011.  I am pretty pleased with these trades since my thinking was to get in cheap...pay the one bedroom MF and see if I can trade into at least the full one bedroom side if not a 2 bedroom without paying the higher MF of a 2 bedroom unit.  I cruise the sightings board on TUG each day and usually scan through II once a day looking to see what is available.  It only takes a few minutes to do both.  I was disappointed after making my first purchase last summer when Starwood changed the way they deposit units into II but when I compared my "new" usage unit weeks to my older actual deposit of high demand weeks I could not find much difference at all in what they would pull which is why I decided to purchase the 2 bedroom at SDO...still waiting on it to close actually.  I too am hoping MF don't continue to take a big jump each year but that is also one of my reasons to start out with the one bedroom units since a percentage increase will be less $$ on them.  So I guess in response to the title on the thread....yes I did buy a resale timeshare right now.  Obviously timeshares are an expense but since we have the ability to travel just about anytime of the year this is how we decided to try and make it work for us while trying to control the expenses.  I also read just about everything I could on TUG for a couple of months before we made our first purchase......thanks to everyone for all of the helpful information.


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## nodge (Jun 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I thought WSJ only Phase I was mandatory? or are they both?



If you click on the "mandatory/voluntary resort identifier" section on the main page of www.mystarcentral.com (the SVO owners’ site) and on www.starwoodvo.com (the main website SVO uses to induce new buyers into the system) you'll see that SVO has provided a detailed breakdown identifying which phases of which resorts are mandatory and which phases of which resorts are voluntary . . . ..

Oh wait, I was dreaming again.  To date, SVO hasn't intentionally published anything to help potential buyers or existing owners figure out which-is-which at any SVO resorts.

Rather, this is how we were able to piece things together enough to eventually figure out with an acceptable measure of confidence that the new phase of WSJ (Bay Vista – Phase II) is voluntary, while the original phase (Virgin Grand/Hillside villas – Phase I) is mandatory.

So the first question you have to ask yourself, whether buying a SVO timeshare from the developer or on the resale market, is "am I interested in maintaining a long-term relationship with a company that treats its customers like this?"  If so, then . . . .  

FWIW, both of my SVO properties are in SVN, but over the past two years, I’ve gotten much, much, much better trades internally to other SVO resorts using II instead of SVN.    In my mind, SVN is becoming the Segway scooter of exchange systems -- it is kind of cool at first, but you quickly learn that it is very expensive for what you get, and its range of useful applications over competing modes of transportation/exchange systems is limited.  

-nodge
my website
(Then again, some people really love their Segways)


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## jerseygirl (Jun 1, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> 5.) Westin St. John - Same as HRA. Phase I (Hillside Villas -- *Mandatory*) are all fixed weeks. Phase II (Bay Vista -- *Voluntary* -- StarOptions do not transfer with resale, price likely to be lower but too soon to tell -- the float option may help offset the voluntary status) offers true float inventory.



Clarifying the above post re Westin St John.


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## J&JFamily (Jun 2, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> If you are interested in StarOptions, purchase at a mandatory resort. This does not mean that you only have to travel to mandatory resorts. You will have access to all SVN resorts provided that you are purchasing at a resort that transfers with StarOptions:
> 
> 1.) Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West phases) - best price on resale, higher maintenance fees per StarOption.
> 2.) Westin Kierland Villas - higher sales price but better maintenance fees per StarOption
> ...



Slight correction to #5 (I think)???  Bay Vista is voluntary; only Hillside is mandatory.  (I incorrectly thought that all of WSJ was mandatory but was reminded on TUG that only Hillside is mandatory).  Is that correct???


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## J&JFamily (Jun 2, 2010)

J&JFamily said:


> Slight correction to #5 (I think)???  Bay Vista is voluntary; only Hillside is mandatory.  (I incorrectly thought that all of WSJ was mandatory but was reminded on TUG that only Hillside is mandatory).  Is that correct???



Oops, I see jerseygirl beat me to the punch.  Maybe I should have scrolled down further...


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## Captron (Jun 2, 2010)

I bought a SDO 2BR LO last year just before the rules change. I am still getting great trades. Although not a "high quality resort or prime time" I just got a 3BR at in January at Dolphins Cove in Anaheim for a small 1BR SDO deposit. I consider that pretty good bang for the buck. (My kids like it even more!) 

I am still looking to buy if any other killer deals come by....definitely bottom feeding (rerice) though!


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## l2trade (Jun 2, 2010)

Reading this thread and biased toward SDO myself (that is what I own after all)...  I cannot understand advice to purchase WKV versus SDO resale right now.  The mandatory resort and StarOptions do not make sense from a cost perspective.  The purchase price difference alone is many thousands versus next to nothing.  The MF at SDO are cheaper too.  In the past, when SDO resales cost more and WKV MF were lower, then maybe an argument could be made to spend a little more for SVN options too.  I've had no problem obtaining trades and getaways to WKV via II when I've wanted them.  Both resorts are very high quality places to stay and not far from each other.  I do not think the price difference is reasonable.  My bet is that time will allow the marketplace to sort this one out either to the benefit of SDO or detriment of WKV or both.


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## zinger1457 (Jun 2, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Reading this thread and biased toward SDO myself (that is what I own after all)...  I cannot understand advice to purchase WKV versus SDO resale right now.  The mandatory resort and StarOptions do not make sense from a cost perspective.  The purchase price difference alone is many thousands versus next to nothing.  The MF at SDO are cheaper too.  In the past, when SDO resales cost more and WKV MF were lower, then maybe an argument could be made to spend a little more for SVN options too.  I've had no problem obtaining trades and getaways to WKV via II when I've wanted them.  Both resorts are very high quality places to stay and not far from each other.  I do not think the price difference is reasonable.  My bet is that time will allow the marketplace to sort this one out either to the benefit of SDO or detriment of WKV or both.



A lot depends on how you intend to use your resort.  If you don't mind staying is smaller 1BR's or studios and not traveling during premium season you can easily get 3-4 weeks of vacation per year at various SVO resorts using staroptions (WKV 148K).  From a MF only perspective using staroptions can be a much better deal.  If you can sell your TS for what you paid for it resale (very big if) then the cost is not that much of a factor.  Heck for most people a 0% gain over the last couple of years would of been a pretty good investment.


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## Fredm (Jun 2, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Reading this thread and biased toward SDO myself (that is what I own after all)...  I cannot understand advice to purchase WKV versus SDO resale right now.  The mandatory resort and StarOptions do not make sense from a cost perspective.  The purchase price difference alone is many thousands versus next to nothing.  The MF at SDO are cheaper too.  In the past, when SDO resales cost more and WKV MF were lower, then maybe an argument could be made to spend a little more for SVN options too.  I've had no problem obtaining trades and getaways to WKV via II when I've wanted them.  Both resorts are very high quality places to stay and not far from each other.  I do not think the price difference is reasonable.  My bet is that time will allow the marketplace to sort this one out either to the benefit of SDO or detriment of WKV or both.



I agree. SDO is a real bargain at current prices.
SVN membership is nice to have. Having choices is always a plus. But, not so much a plus to pay a hefty premium for.

As nodge and jerseygirl have already stated quite well, the advantages of SVN as an exchange vehicle is overblown. 

Buy where you want to go. The rest will take care of itself quite nicely.


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## wayward (Jun 2, 2010)

*I just bought Starwood Resales*



dsrbp said:


> Hello all:
> 
> Considering all the negative things I have seen in this forum regarding Starwood i.e. increase in maintenance fees, Interval issues, etc.  I would like to hear from members if they would buy a resale timeshare from Westin right now considering these issues regarding Starwood?  Do the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages or should I be looking at purchasing something else - fractional ownership? I was thinking about purchasing a Westin Kierland resale timeshare. Thanks for your responses.



I think this is a good time to buy Starwood resales.  I just purchased 3 of them, one in Orlando, one in Myrtle Beach and one in Arizona.
The maintenance fees are a little high but the purchase prices are extremely low and they were all 2 bedroom lockoffs, deeded, Annual, High season.
I don't think I would want to pay the prices of new or a sale by the resort themselves.
My family and I just came back from Orlando and it was terrific and worth the money for the higher standard of accommodation.
Wayward


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Reading this thread and biased toward SDO myself (that is what I own after all)...  I cannot understand advice to purchase WKV versus SDO resale right now.  The mandatory resort and StarOptions do not make sense from a cost perspective.  The purchase price difference alone is many thousands versus next to nothing.  The MF at SDO are cheaper too.  In the past, when SDO resales cost more and WKV MF were lower, then maybe an argument could be made to spend a little more for SVN options too.  I've had no problem obtaining trades and getaways to WKV via II when I've wanted them.  Both resorts are very high quality places to stay and not far from each other.  I do not think the price difference is reasonable.  My bet is that time will allow the marketplace to sort this one out either to the benefit of SDO or detriment of WKV or both.



l2trade, I truly don't understand your need to hype SDO at the expense of WKV... Let's face it, we are all biased here one way or another but the sample of people owning at both resorts is quite small.

Here is my experience with one year of owning at WKV:

With SVN, people mostly complain about availability at Harborside and St. John, but otherwise almost any exchange seems doable. For example, this year I got 1 week in peak season (March) at Harborside in a large 1BR for 81,000 Staroptions, 1 week at Harborside during th summer in a small 1BR for 44,000 Staroptions, and 3 days this past holiday weekend at Westin Desert Willow for 22,000 Staroptions in a small 1BR. I also at some point held a reservation at a 3BR in St. John for the summer but cancelled because we couldn't go. All this using my WKV 148K Staroptions. I know I got very lucky with Harborside and in better economic times this would be unheard of, but I think we can agree that these exchanges would be extremely hard to do using SDO/SBP and II...

In my opinion, the biggest risk with buying WKV is that maintenance fees increase more, which would lower the value of what you bought or that SVN goes away, in which case it becomes worthless. Otherwise, as pointed out by zinger1457 the upfront cost is by no means a sunk cost because you can recoup value upon a resale (I'll agree that the opportunity cost of owning is higher because of the higher upfront investment). Also, making an argument that there is more to lose with WKV is questionable because, as we all know, timeshare resale values are not bounded by zero and if a place like SDO suffers further large MFs increases or loss of trading power then owners will have to pay thousands of dollars to the worst people in the timeshare business so they can get rid of those timeshares. I certainly don't want to be in that situation.

I understand the value proposition of SDO. You can lockoff, you can get 2BR for 1BR trades via II sightings, the II two for 1 exchange deal (mostly in high supply locations like Orlando and Vegas) etc. On the flipside though, it seems to me that much of the success of the 2BR for 1BR trading strategy (within Starwood) depends on developer bulk deposits as I pointed out in post #35, which nobody yet commented on. If Starwood stop bulk depositing and you had to rely on ongoing exchanges to get more "like for like" trades then SDO would not be the bargain it's hyped up to be. And nothing says bulk deposits will continue... Note that I'm not saying a 2BR Hawaii in September is not "like for like" with a 1BR SDO March week - but nobody deposits SDO March weeks anymore... In fact Starwood makes the II depsits and it seems to me that most of the Starwood deposits into II are off peak. I've read reports of II trades into Hawaii in the summer via ongoing trades but how many May and September weeks are available versus July and August, when most people want to go?

These are just different products and don't necessarily compete on the resale market. The first decision I made as a resale buyer was to buy mandatory. I couldn't care less that SDO sells almost for "free" - I just don't want it. My guess is many buyers at Mandatory resorts think similarly. Whatever SDO does, I can do with WKV, and I can do many other things that SDO can't. The difference in MFs and opportunity cost (say 5% a year of the purchase price) is worth it to me. I don't view it as costing me $17K - because I can still recoup that $17K tomorrow. If resale value of WKV goes to zero I'll be upset, but I'd also be very upset If I had to pay $5K to someone to get rid of SDO, which is also a possibility...


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## Ken555 (Jun 2, 2010)

As Dan correctly reported, the value of SVN membership is all about how you use it. I like both SVN and II "trades", and they serve different purposes. I'm able to stretch my WKV Platinum week into differing nights per year (this year 23 nights in 1-bed premium units at Harborside, WKV, and WDW). The flexibility of SVN still exists and is a cornerstone of the program. Using II is a great feature, but - to me - only worthwhile with non-SVN units, and is how I use my SVR units, for instance. I've had great trades with II, as I have reported here over the years, including two 2-bed units in Hawaii for a week this year. The real question to me is how things will work next year and beyond, given the II changes. I'm glad of the reports so far, and plan on testing with a request first this month for next year.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> l2trade, I truly don't understand your need to hupe SDO at the expense of WKV... Let's face it, we are all biased here one way or another but the sample of people owning at both resorts is quite small.



We own both SDO and WKV and our direct experience corroborates what DanCali and Ken555 say above.

Both have a definite -- and different -- place in our TS portfolio.  We find each to be a good value for each specific purpose.

WKV allows StarOption trades through Starwood.  It allows pinpoint precision (getting a spring break week for the week the kids have their school vacation, getting a summer week, getting a second WKORV week for when we have reserved our WKORV week and have guests, etc.).  It definitely costs more, but we save substantial amounts on airplane tickets because we can book flights using miles or when airfares inexplicably drop.

SDO worked great when Starwood did bulk deposits of Hawaii units; we routinely exchanged inexpensive units at SDO/SBP for off season Hawaii weeks.  DW spent a week at WKORVN in late April, exchanging a small one bedroom SDO for a 2 bedroom WKORVN oceanfront.  But we have not seen any bulk deposits to Hawaii since the rule changes last year.  If that continues, the ability to reserve back-to-back Hawaii weeks using one bedroom SDO/SBP units (and then buying cheap plane tix) is diminished and we will sell off at least a couple of these traders.

WKV is a profitable renter.  For the past couple of years, we have rented part or all of a WKV March week at a significant profit (profit = where rent exceeds MF's + opportunity cost on capital + advertising cost).  

Finally, if you are buying to use, WKV is clearly superior.  I concede that this spring, I was able to see February and March, 2011 WKV units with my SDO deposits, but I believe that was an anomaly.


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## K2Quick (Jun 2, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> SDO worked great when Starwood did bulk deposits of Hawaii units . . . . But we have not seen any bulk deposits to Hawaii since the rule changes last year.



There have been all sorts of bulk bankings including this one from Friday:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122608&highlight=westin

Just go to the Sightings boards and search the forum for 'Westin' and you'll see several bulk bankings since the new rules were implemented last summer.


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> There have been all sorts of bulk bankings including this one from Friday:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122608&highlight=westin
> 
> Just go to the Sightings boards and search the forum for 'Westin' and you'll see several bulk bankings since the new rules were implemented last summer.



This just demonstrates the point that the success of these types of trades is helped a lot by bulk banking, and it helps the most the people who have the time to monitor TUG and II...


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## Transit (Jun 2, 2010)

I like both options SVN & Non-SVN. I use SVV for all my SVN trades. I use SDO/SBP mainly for outside trades HGVC, Disney, Marriott. I'm also using my home resorts and rotating which ones I trade.

        Outside trades are potluck you never know from one year to the next what will happen. .SVN trades are more consistent.  I do see the logic in getting WKV with 148000 SO's for those who like using SVN.


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## Transit (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This just demonstrates the point that the success of these types of trades is helped a lot by bulk banking, and it helps the most the people who have the time to monitor TUG and II...



Anything can happen with exchanging ,nothing is guaranteed. You have to be willing to play the exchange game and go with the flow .It's not for everyone . Most owners like knowing when where and why. Exchanging is more like spinning the wheel of fortune.


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## grgs (Jun 2, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> We own both SDO and WKV and our direct experience corroborates what DanCali and Ken555 say above.
> 
> Both have a definite -- and different -- place in our TS portfolio.  We find each to be a good value for each specific purpose.



I agree with Dan, Ken, Robert, & Frank.  I own both WKV and SDO.  They both work well for us in different ways.  I've been pleased with the trades I've gotten in II with my SDO (& SVR) units for other Starwood and Marriott locations.  However, these have not been for peak season times.

If I was not tied to the school calendar, I think I might well be quite content to trade solely with SDO/SVR in II.  However, I find my WKV unit gets me what I want during summer when school is out by trading through SVN.  I do not think I would have made trades for WKORV, Harborside, or Lagunamar (well may be Lagunamar) during the summer going through II.  Furthermore, I appreciate the flexibility of being able to use SOs to get 12 or more nights, rather than being tied to 1 week slots.

Is there a premium to pay for this flexibility?  Absolutely.  It's been worth it to me so far, but I can certainly see the other side, and wouldn't try to convince someone else that they should spend the extra money to get SOs.

My big concern, as others have mentioned, is that SVN goes away.  If that happens, then I would not see any advantage to owning WKV over SDO.  If SVN stays as it is, and never expands, then I'll be disappointed, but can live with that.  Given the concerns over rising mf and the uncertainty of SVN, I don't know that I would recommend buying WKV right now.  SDO does seem less risky since there is less upfront purchase money needed.

My other concern is what may happen with Marriott and II.  As I said, I have used my SDO/SVR units to trade into Marriott units.  I'll be very disappointed if the availability of those units goes away or greatly diminishes.  

Glorian


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## l2trade (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> l2trade, I truly don't understand your need to hupe SDO at the expense of WKV... Let's face it, we are all biased here one way or another but the sample of people owning at both resorts is quite small.



And I truly don't understand the flip side, nor the meaning of 'hupe'?     Let's agree to disagree.  

There is nothing wrong with either resort.  They are both high quality and very nice places to stay.  They both trade well.  With some patience and flexibility, I am able to vacation where I want and when I want.  I think the same can be said about WKV.  I'm not limited and certainly don't want to ever be limited by the SVN universe.

My post is a simple resale market comparison between two Starwood resorts.  It makes no sense to me and, IMHO, is the result of many more posts hyping WKV (mandatory SVN) at the expense of SDO.  I admitted and you agree that we are all biased here.  I am presenting the other side.  My bias keeps an extra $17k safely in the pockets of new resale buyers and saves them money each year.  For that biased perspective I share, I am sure some folks, with budgetary concerns similar to mine, are grateful.  It is not necessary to spend so much more money for essentially many of the same II exchanges.  If I recall, Starwood corporate justified the II system changes by saying it wasn't necessary for owners to relinquish prime reservations to achieve most of the trades they were getting.  The same can be said with owning far more pricey resorts with similar II power to trade with.

And one more thing:  Nobody will EVER have 'to pay $5K to someone to get rid of SDO'.  That is fear mongering and scare tactics and would be a total suckers scam, plain and simple.  From a post earlier this month, it is clear the SDO HOA is taking steps to remedy the foreclosure crisis, including DIL for owners who can't or won't pay.  I'm fine with disagreements, but I wonder your motives for bashing my opinions and motives when I point out anything remotely positive about owning SDO.


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

hupe is a typo of hype  (now fixed in the original post)


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## l2trade (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali, deja vu? 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=907199#post907199

I'd love to be able to back up my opinions by sharing (bragging) the facts of my exchange history.  For privacy reasons, that is not something I'm prepared to do.  Let's just say I'm very happy with my vacations I continue to get through SDO, both the when & the where.  If anyone else chooses to brag about their best recent SDO trades, I welcome that.  

There is no need to brag about WKV trades.  I agree that those are likely exceptional as well, perhaps even better than mine.  My opinions are all about the *value  proposition* here with two very different total costs of ownership both achieving results I consider to be desirable.  YMMV, IMHO, yada, yada, yada...


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

l2trade said:


> And one more thing:  Nobody will EVER have 'to pay $5K to someone to get rid of SDO'.  That is fear mongering and scare tactics and would be a total suckers scam, plain and simple.  From a post earlier this month, it is clear the SDO HOA is taking steps to remedy the foreclosure crisis, including DIL for owners who can't or won't pay.  I'm fine with disagreements, but I wonder your motives for bashing my opinions and motives when I point out anything remotely positive about owning SDO.



It is not an issue of fear mongering. More the reality that resale values can and do go negative. Just take a look at SVR and some of the shoulder season weeks at ski resorts. If something resells for $200, it is pretty close to negative resale value. In fact, there probably are many owners who were duped into paying PCCs thousands of dollars to get rid of their SDO units and the PCCs in turn sell them on eBay for $200 (but, to be fair, this is just speculation). It won't take much to turn resale prices negative from this point - higher MFs and/or fewer trading opportunities can easily cause that. For example, what do you think happens to resale prices if Starwood II priority goes away and now you compete with millions of other owners for the same Starwood weeks? There is no point in burying heads in the sand about the possibility things could get worse.

Things could also get better... I agree that it appears that the HOA is taking steps to remedy some things. That is a big positive and more than can be said for other Starwood resorts. But they don't control the voluntary nature of the resort, II deposit rules, and probably have little to say as to the level of MFs when presented numbers from Starwood. 

As for "Nobody will EVER have 'to pay $5K to someone to get rid of SDO'" - I wouldn't say something like this unless I was willing to take those weeks for free if there were no other buyers... You or I have absolutely no idea where resale prices will be in a few years.


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## l2trade (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> the HOA ... probably have little to say as to the level of MFs when presented numbers from Starwood.


Do you really believe that?  If that is the case, then the HOA board member would not be performing their job as required by law.



DanCali said:


> As for "Nobody will EVER have 'to pay $5K to someone to get rid of SDO'" - I wouldn't say something like this unless I was willing to take those weeks for free if there were no other buyers... You or I have absolutely no idea where resale prices will be in a few years.



I would be willing to buy one of these units as a regular condo for far more money than the sum of all its parts.  The situation can only go downhill so far before you reach the bottom.  That bottom could possibly be defined as negative, maybe even up to a MF + closing costs.  However, $5,000 is really stretching it.  A $17k resale timeshare from the same company dropping to $1 is far more likely possibility than that.  Will some independent timeshares be forced to dissolve in the coming years?  Perhaps.  Will Starwood allow that to happen to SDO?  I don't think so.  There are so many other, far more realistic extreme possiblities before an owner ever needs to pay someone $5,000 to take away their ownership.


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## Transit (Jun 2, 2010)

Debating which resort is a better purchase is pointless -different strokes for different folks. Finding what suits your personal needs is the ticket to timeshare bliss.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 2, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> SDO worked great when Starwood did bulk deposits of Hawaii units. . .    But we have not seen any bulk deposits to Hawaii since the rule changes last year.





K2Quick said:


> There have been all sorts of bulk bankings including this one from Friday:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122608&highlight=westin
> 
> Just go to the Sightings boards and search the forum for 'Westin' and you'll see several bulk bankings since the new rules were implemented last summer.



Your link takes us to a bulk banking of Lagunamar units; my observation was that Starwood stopped bulk banking Hawaii units.  A year ago we routinely saw 15-20 Hawaii units deposited at a time; we no longer see that.  I will stand by my observation -- but hope that time proves it was wrong.


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## nodge (Jun 2, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> . . .  my observation was that Starwood stopped bulk banking Hawaii units.  A year ago we routinely saw 15-20 Hawaii units deposited at a time; we no longer see that.



Here are links to the most recent SVO bulk spacebanking sightings in Hawaii:

WKORV-N  (Available on Feb 7, 2010)
WKORV (Available on Feb 7, 2010)
WPORV  (Available on April 2, 2010)

Other options also include:

WKV during March 2011 (Available on April 16, 2010)
Westin Lagunamar  (Available on February 7, 2010)

-nodge


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Do you really believe that?  If that is the case, then the HOA board member would not be performing their job as required by law.



Actually, I do. I believe all HOAs at Starwood resorts act as rubber stamps when it comes to approving MFs presented by Starwood. If that was not the case, MFs would no go up 50%-100% over 5 years at all resorts...

Are they not doing their job by accepting Starwood numbers? If that's what it takes to keep Starwood as a manager they may argue differently...



l2trade said:


> I would be willing to buy one of these units as a regular condo for far more money than the sum of all its parts.



Maybe I misinterpret, but wouldn't this involve 52 VOIs and 52 MFs a year (approx $45K every year!)

I think some Starwood resorts would be worth more to owners if sold as condos... given that 100% owner approval is needed, it'll never happen.


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## K2Quick (Jun 2, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> Your link takes us to a bulk banking of Lagunamar units; my observation was that Starwood stopped bulk banking Hawaii units.  A year ago we routinely saw 15-20 Hawaii units deposited at a time; we no longer see that.  I will stand by my observation -- but hope that time proves it was wrong.



Do you still stand by your observation after looking at nodge's post immediately below yours?  Honestly, just do a search for Westin in the Sightings forum and you'll see lots of bulk-banking since the new rules went into effect.


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> Do you still stand by your observation after looking at nodge's post immediately below yours?  Honestly, just do a search for Westin in the Sightings forum and you'll see lots of bulk-banking since the new rules went into effect.



The point is that we have no idea if these will continue going forward. Starwood bulk banks for convenience reasons. If they stop, for whatever reason, and deposit units one by one the 2BR for 1BR trades become much harder to attain...


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## nodge (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The point is that we have no idea if these will continue going forward.



Well using that logic, given the fact that virtually every unit in every voluntary SVO resort will eventually become a resale and therefore drop out of the pool of available inventory for SVN member exchanges, isn’t the _possibility_ of II inventory availability changes still better than the inevitable _certainty_ of no SVN inventory availability at these same resorts?  

And that's even assuming SVN doesn't go TU, which is a pretty big assumption to risk $17K+ on these days.

I digress, but I think SVO's changes to II to control the week deposited by non-SVN members was an attempt to mask this inherent flaw with the "voluntary" resort system.

-nodge


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 2, 2010)

I have no guesses as to whether or not Starwood will bulk deposit their Hawaii properties in the future, but I did enter an ongoing request for January with my Foxrun week.  I have to say I hope I don't get that request, because that will mean II is holding back inventory to satisfy ongoing searches, and anything goes--anything will pull it, not just a Starwood deposit. 

I suggest others enter ongoing searches with generic weeks, or your SDO and SBP, and see if you get your match before they bulk bank.  

I haven't seen anything bulk banked for 2011 yet, have any of you?  Maybe this is what they meant when they said there would be no more.  Maybe they had an agreement with II that started in Jan of 2011.  

We are halfway through 2010.  That's unusual to not see anything for next year.  I had my April 2010 weeks at the Westin North by early May last year.  I haven't seen January yet for 2011.  I am concerned.  I watch for Thursday and Friday sightings, and I am disappointed to see nothing.


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## K2Quick (Jun 2, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The point is that we have no idea if these will continue going forward. Starwood bulk banks for convenience reasons. If they stop, for whatever reason, and deposit units one by one the 2BR for 1BR trades become much harder to attain...



vacationtime1's asserted that there hadn't been any bulk bankings since the new rules were implemented.  I was merely pointing out that there have been several.  At no time did I state anything about the future.  I'm hoping - that's all I can do.

I don't think ending bulk banking is the end of the world even if it did come to that.  Ultimately, if someone deposits his unit, that unit will make its way into II whether via bulk bank or not - it's not like trickle deposits are going to change supply - just the timing of the supply.  Is there any reason to think that there will be a spike in the number of ongoing requests to soak up the deposits of offseason Hawaii weeks?  If bulk banking ceases, we'll just need to be extra vigilant in checking II inventory.  We won't have 40 units to choose from at one time, but those 40 units will still get there one or a few at a time because I just don't see any rationale for increased ongoing searches.


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

nodge said:


> I think SVO's changes to II to control the week deposited by non-SVN members was an attempt to mask this inherent flaw with the "voluntary" resort system.



That would have been my answer too... 

And they can always invite people into SVN at will...


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## K2Quick (Jun 2, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I haven't seen anything bulk banked for 2011 yet, have any of you?  Maybe this is what they meant when they said there would be no more.  Maybe they had an agreement with II that started in Jan of 2011.



I know you're probably talking specifically about Hawaii, but there have been a couple of 2011 sighting at WKV and Kierland including this one:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117087&highlight=kierland

That would be considered peak season at those resorts so I would be cautiously optimistic that if they deposit prime 2011 weeks at WKV, they'd do the same for the Hawaii resorts in off-peak times.


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## Transit (Jun 2, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> vacationtime1's asserted that there hadn't been any bulk bankings since the new rules were implemented.  I was merely pointing out that there have been several.  At no time did I state anything about the future.  I'm hoping - that's all I can do.
> 
> I don't think ending bulk banking is the end of the world even if it did come to that.  Ultimately, if someone deposits his unit, that unit will make its way into II whether via bulk bank or not - it's not like trickle deposits are going to change supply - just the timing of the supply.  Is there any reason to think that there will be a spike in the number of ongoing requests to soak up the deposits of offseason Hawaii weeks?  If bulk banking ceases, we'll just need to be extra vigilant in checking II inventory.  We won't have 40 units to choose from at one time, but those 40 units will still get there one or a few at a time because I just don't see any rationale for increased ongoing searches.



I agree, if they don't bulk bank, all those deposited units have to go somewhere.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 2, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> I don't think ending bulk banking is the end of the world even if it did come to that.  Ultimately, if someone deposits his unit, that unit will make its way into II whether via bulk bank or not - it's not like trickle deposits are going to change supply - just the timing of the supply.  Is there any reason to think that there will be a spike in the number of ongoing requests to soak up the deposits of offseason Hawaii weeks?  If bulk banking ceases, we'll just need to be extra vigilant in checking II inventory.  We won't have 40 units to choose from at one time, but those 40 units will still get there one or a few at a time because I just don't see any rationale for increased ongoing searches.



I agree with this, but it will have two effects.

First, as K2Quick points out, we won't have the candy store with 40 available weeks where we get to pick which week(s) we want from the many choices available; when anything shows on the I.I. website, the choice will be to take it or leave it.

Second, it will put greater emphasis on ongoing searches.  If weeks are released one or two at a time, it will be more important to snag them before they make it to the website.

Even if the overall supply of Hawaii weeks and the overall demand for Hawaii weeks are unchanged, fewer bulk deposits will require more planning, more work, and less certainty.  These problems will be exacerbated for multiple week trips.


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## DanCali (Jun 2, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> I don't think ending bulk banking is the end of the world even if it did come to that.  Ultimately, if someone deposits his unit, that unit will make its way into II whether via bulk bank or not - it's not like trickle deposits are going to change supply - just the timing of the supply.  Is there any reason to think that there will be a spike in the number of ongoing requests to soak up the deposits of offseason Hawaii weeks?  If bulk banking ceases, we'll just need to be extra vigilant in checking II inventory.  We won't have 40 units to choose from at one time, but those 40 units will still get there one or a few at a time because I just don't see any rationale for increased ongoing searches.



Sorry - I missed this post before but vacationtime1 pretty much gave te same answer...

The timing of the supply will make a big difference because you will no longer have 5-10 days to react to a TUG sighting of 40-50 deposits. Sightings of single deposits will be grabbed in a matter of minutes and only the most religious (or lucky) II browsers will benefit. 

This is a huge contrast to calling at 8 months out and reserving the exact week and unit size you want (well, at most resorts...)

I can understand the thrill of looking for a good exchange. I also trade via II using my Marriotts - but getting high demand weeks with Marriotts seems a lot more likely when everyone plays by the "ordinary" II rules and deposit the week they reserve. With Starwood, it seems like if on is tied to school schedules and/or doesn't log into II several times a day, they are bound to be disappointed more than once by playing this game, and even more so if bulk deposits end.


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## SDKath (Jun 2, 2010)

I agree.  Ongoing searches also have the major downside of having to trade like size for like size.  So the days of trading your studio for a 2br LO are pretty much over unless you obsessively check II 3-4x a day.

Given that II is glitchy and is totally user unfriendly when it comes to searches, this is just not going to be on my to do list any time soon.  I would rather use SOs and the SVN system ANY DAY to dealing with II.

Katherine


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## Transit (Jun 3, 2010)

SDKath said:


> I agree.  Ongoing searches also have the major downside of having to trade like size for like size.  So the days of trading your studio for a 2br LO are pretty much over unless you obsessively check II 3-4x a day.
> 
> Given that II is glitchy and is totally user unfriendly when it comes to searches, this is just not going to be on my to do list any time soon.  I would rather use SOs and the SVN system ANY DAY to dealing with II.
> 
> Katherine



Kath ,like for Like is only in II .In RCI you can do a request first for any size.


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## SDKath (Jun 3, 2010)

Transit said:


> Kath ,like for Like is only in II .In RCI you can do a request first for any size.



Oh that's good.  I didn't know that... I might consider depositing one of my SDO weeks in RCI just to try it (and see if I can grab a DVC sometime).  Are people having success getting 2br units with 1br or studios using RCI?  I would think it would be hard since everyone would want a larger unit.

Katherine


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## GrayFal (Jun 3, 2010)

SDKath said:


> Oh that's good.  I didn't know that... I might consider depositing one of my SDO weeks in RCI just to try it (and see if I can grab a DVC sometime).  Are people having success getting 2BR units with 1BR or studios using RCI?  I would think it would be hard since everyone would want a larger unit.
> 
> Katherine



Changes are coming to RCI as well - making the old TUG adage "Own where u want to go" even more important. In Starwood terms, staying within the SVN.
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118636


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## Transit (Jun 3, 2010)

Changes to ii and RCI and bulk banking will effect all units deposited not just SVO units.It's nice to have a cheap trader deposited when a great unit pops up.


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## tinkerbell2 (Jun 3, 2010)

SDKath, to answer your question, I just got a 3BR Hilton seaworld for the last week of feb.2011 with a 2BR SBP


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## nodge (Jun 17, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> ... I haven't seen anything bulk banked for 2011 yet, have any of you?  Maybe this is what they meant when they said there would be no more.  Maybe they had an agreement with II that started in Jan of 2011.
> 
> We are halfway through 2010.  That's unusual to not see anything for next year.  I had my April 2010 weeks at the Westin North by early May last year.  I haven't seen January yet for 2011.  I am concerned.  I watch for Thursday and Friday sightings, and I am disappointed to see nothing.



I was riding my Segway to the gym when I felt a drop of rain.  

Boy, when it  rains it pours.  It's raining here and here too.  If only I had driven my good ol' reliable, nothing fancy, Chevy that I bought on ebay for $1.

-nodge


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## DanCali (Jun 17, 2010)

nodge said:


> I was riding my Segway to the gym when I felt a drop of rain.
> 
> Boy, when it  rains it pours.  It's raining here and here too.  If only I had driven my good ol' reliable, nothing fancy, Chevy that I bought on ebay for $1.
> 
> -nodge



Clever post 

But it actually proves a couple of points I've been making in other threads.

First, the 2BR for 1BR strategy relies on these bulk bankings. If the bulk bankings stop it'll be a drought for those exchanges.

Second, I still don't see July and August weeks - which does matter for those who have kids in school. Personally, the 1 and only week I could have used of all those was June 4. I may keep the small 1BR WKV in II for cases like this, but it certainly doesn't seem like something to count on...


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## l2trade (Jun 17, 2010)

nodge said:


> I was riding my Segway to the gym when I felt a drop of rain.
> 
> Boy, when it  rains it pours.  It's raining here and here too.  If only I had driven my good ol' reliable, nothing fancy, Chevy that I bought on ebay for $1.
> 
> -nodge



The coincidence of this sudden downpour on Jun 17th after the big, long drought is not lost on me.  Look at the soon to be longest thread on the Marriott board and you will know what else happened in the timeshare world today...

Mind you, I'm not complaining.  We've needed this rain!  I will take it any way I can get it!


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 17, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Clever post
> 
> But it actually proves a couple of points I've been making in other threads.
> 
> ...



Already my SBP Gold Plus 1 beds, new rules, are not able to book the 2 beds online.  I could see them, but when I tried to book, it kept saying all 2 bedrooms were not available, but when I tried a 1 bed, I could book it just fine.  No one with an SBP deposit has been able to tout their success in booking a 2 bed.  It's probably not an isolated issue or website problem.  Think about it!  

And Nodge, last year we had at least four bankings by this time, and this one was a fairly small one, considering how many weeks were covered (1/2 a year).  I am watching anxiously for more to bank in a few months, but I am not counting on it, like we could last year.


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## DanCali (Jun 17, 2010)

I think it's great that people can maximize the value of what they own in this manner. But it's one thing to employ this strategy with a timeshare you already own, and another to tout it to newbies as a reason to go out and buy a voluntary resort, when the success of the strategy depends so much on Starwood's depositing habits and you your own ability to grab a 2BR in a matter of hours (most are gone by now, including the June 4 one...).


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 17, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I think it's great that people can maximize the value of what they own in this manner. But it's one thing to employ this strategy with a timeshare you already own, and another to tout it to newbies as a reason to go out and buy a voluntary resort, when the success of the strategy depends so much on Starwood's depositing habits and you your own ability to grab a 2BR in a matter of hours (most are gone by now, including the June 4 one...).



Yep, I agree with you, Dan!  You cannot count on anything staying the way it is (was).  This single bulk banking for 2011 is a hint that things will change, and not for the better, for SDO and SBP deposits (and SMV and Lakeside Terrace, etc.).  

I learned my lesson with RCI a little over a year ago.  My trading power on my six weeks I used to get anything, even DVC and Hawaii, changed overnight.   I am still in shock!


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## nodge (Jun 17, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Already my SBP Gold Plus 1 beds, new rules, are not able to book the 2 beds online.  I could see them, but when I tried to book, it kept saying all 2 bedrooms were not available, but when I tried a 1 bed, I could book it just fine.  No one with an SBP deposit has been able to tout their success in booking a 2 bed.  It's probably not an isolated issue or website problem.  Think about it!



Same thing happened when I tried to book a two bedroom at WKORV-N earlier today with my small one bedroom SDO.  But I did more than think about it, I called the super II agent and asked wassup with that?

He pulled up what I was looking at, and he booked the 2 bedroom on his end no problemo. He said that II has been having problems with its online booking system lately. 

If the 2 BR you want is still appearing online, call II tomorrow and have them return your one bedroom and book the two bedroom.  I'm pretty sure you have 24 hours after booking to cancel or change a reservation.  

I'm all about looking for clues, but I really don't think this qualifies as evidence of the II sky falling. 



rickandcindy23 said:


> And Nodge, last year we had at least four bankings by this time, and this one was a fairly small one, considering how many weeks were covered (1/2 a year).  I am watching anxiously for more to bank in a few months, but I am not counting on it, like we could last year.



Could be.  But if anyone is messing with the available II SVO inventory, I would blame SVO and not II. 

The larger question is . . . Why is SVO messing with the II inventory?

My answer is . . . because the SVN exchange system is straining for available exchange inventory because of its own fatal flaw that will ultimately lead to its demise -- voluntary resorts.  SVO can temporarily prop up availability for SVN members for a while, but eventually even SVO's practice of stealing the good weeks from non-SVN members who use II and RCI won't be enough to fill the need.  When that happens, it will be SVN, not II, that will fold like a house of cards.

So in the short term, II inventory may be compromised, but the folks spending thousands and thousands of dollars to join SVN will ultimately be the biggest victims in all of this.  

I know, I know, SVN can just open up SVN membership to resale owners if it needs more inventory.  But, if someone doesn't trust II or RCI to do the right thing, why would he or she just blindly trust and assume that SVO, a company with a rich, rich, rich history of sticking it to owners, would just make that happen?  

I guess what I'm saying is that every argument anyone can advance to suggest II's or RCI's sky is falling can be applied 10 fold to SVN.  

The only difference is that one can gamble with II and RCI using a $1 ebay purchase, but the ante/risk is way, way more over in the high roller SVN room.  Sure the chairs are nicer in the high roller room, but the limited potential for improved payoff (the improved _possibility_ of snagging holiday and peak season weeks at non-home SVO resorts) doesn't justify risking the much higher up-front costs.

II and RCI aren’t perfect, but on balance, they still do a better job than SVN, and they are way, way, way cheaper to walk away from when the timeshare industry, or at least one or two if its members, bite(s) it due largely to the excessive greed and incompetence of the folks running the show.

-nodge

Enjoy here while you're here because there is no here there.  Grab those 2 BR's in Maui and Kauai while the getting is good!


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 17, 2010)

Nodge, I should have thought about calling Superagent.   He probably wouldn't have lied to me (like the first two agents did), saying there were NO WESTIN deposits available at all.  I said I could see them, they both argued the point, saying no Westins were there, so nothing to book.  I said "thanks,anyway" and called back again and again, to hopefully get someone honest.  

"Maybe it was a problem with their website..." was what the third guy said, so he transferred me to someone else, perhaps in web support, who talked to a supervisor via intranet email and finally booked what I wanted.  But it was very difficult, and Rodrigo, or however you spell his name, wasn't all that sure I would ever be able to get such exchanges again with 1 beds at SBP, but this time he had permission from the supervisor, so he could do it for me.  Not impressive.


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## DanCali (Jun 18, 2010)

nodge said:


> The only difference is that one can gamble with II and RCI using a $1 ebay purchase, but the ante/risk is way, way more over in the high roller SVN room.



This point is valid, but we also have to acknowledge that a timeshare's price is not bounded by zero. A $1 eBay purchase can turn into a liability where an owner would need to fork over thousands of dollars to relieve himself of it... In fact, there are probably less savvy people already in that position at many of the voluntary resorts.


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## nodge (Jun 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This point is valid, but we also have to acknowledge that a timeshare's price is not bounded by zero. A $1 eBay purchase can turn into a liability where an owner would need to fork over thousands of dollars to relieve himself of it



Yep.  But guess what? All of those mandatory resorts' prices are not bounded by zero either, especially if, God forbid, SVN goes belly-up.  It's just that with those mandatory resorts starting at a higher resale price than those $1 ebay ones, they just have that much farther to fall.

If folks should avoid II and RCI because of what _could_ happen, shouldn't they also avoid SVN for the same reason?

So . . . . applying what we've learned to the OP's original question, here is where I stand on this question:

"Would you buy a resale [SVO] timeshare right now?"

Answer: No.

But if I had to buy something, I'd buy a cheapo SVO trader with reasonable maint fees at a location where I wouldn't mind going to if everything went south, and I'd milk those primo II and RCI exchanges for as long as they keep appearing. 

I wouldn't spend serious money to buy anything just because it is in SVN.  The wind is picking up around that house of cards.

-nodge

Now I've got to go install seat-belts on all my furniture.  You never know what _could_ happen, and I just want to be prepared.


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## SDKath (Jun 18, 2010)

Good thing I didn't just read your last post, nodge.  I just picked up a WKV for an amazing price on eBay!  

You know what they say -- buy low, etc etc...   

Katherine


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## nodge (Jun 18, 2010)

SDKath said:


> I just picked up a WKV for an amazing price on eBay!



Do tell!  Of course, all bets are off if you can get a decent amount of StarOptions in a mandatory resort at a voluntary resort price . . . ..

-nodge


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## okwiater (Jun 18, 2010)

SDKath said:


> Good thing I didn't just read your last post, nodge. I just picked up a WKV for an amazing price on eBay!
> 
> You know what they say -- buy low, etc etc...
> 
> Katherine


 
WKV or WKORV? I scoured the completed listings and couldn't find a WKV in the last 2 days.


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## DeniseM (Jun 18, 2010)

WKV - but it wasn't in the last 2 days.


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