# Helium Report - DC Reviews = SCAM?



## Steamboat Bill (Mar 23, 2007)

I am starting to wonder if The Helium Reports new section "Member Reviews" is a SCAM.

There is a DC called Spring Ridge Club with 114 members devoted to fly fishing and the are leading the pack with 26 reviews...all 5-Star and not one negative comment.

When you look at the dates of the reviews they were all done within the last 30 days.

Either is is a SCAM or they convinced their members to post here.

http://guide.heliumreport.com/company/spring-ridge-club/reviews

Now compare this to Exclusive Resorts with 2,500 members and only 9 reviews.


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## GregGH (Mar 24, 2007)

Hello Bill

Well- maybe not  a full SCAM - but certainly looks like it has been 'coached' by someone. The problem with posting on Helium is that a) how much censorship does the site have for negative comments  b)when you pay that much money - it can be hard to admit you made a mistake in joining - you are more compelled to paint a rosy picture ( it somehow re-inforces your decision was a good one ).  In university ( many yr's ago ) we took a study of how 'big ticket' buyers will read the ad's AFTER they bought the item - as a reinforcement to help them support why they did what they did -- some of these  guys have to have some inner worries on another T&H bankruptcy or worse ?? and have not told their spouse - who is who they should really worry about - mine would kill me on that kind of goof )

Question - could this forum do a better job of attracting others like actual owners of this fly fishing  club and other DC's?  If we can get these posters here --we can see who they really are ..and what else they have posted .. you quickly gain respect for some more than others.

Could a name change from "Non-traditional Interval Ownership' to ...say ... "Destination Clubs - Residence Clubs - Fractionals - Condo-Hotels and other Hi-End Ownerships"   ( too  long ?? )    When a possible purchaser of a DC 'googles' - does he ever find this forum?  Would this forum name change help?

I think this is an EXCELLENT forum to really find out what happens -- how can we attract more input from other DC's  ... M Private Residences ( a Cdn player, eh ?) and a long lists of others especially the ones with the membership at 200k or less
Private Escapes
Portofino Club
Ultimate Resort ... etc ....to give some 'balance' to the many comments from HCC.

Personally I would like to see the forum name change to help attract more comments from fractional owners --I am really curious on how re-sale values will be.

As always - you start good threads ...

Greg


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 24, 2007)

I like the idea of a forum name change...I did not create the current name.


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## GregGH (Mar 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I like the idea of a forum name change...I did not create the current name.



Can I take that as a 'seconder' for the idea?   Big Smile

Greg


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## travelguy (Mar 25, 2007)

*I "third" the forum name change*

I also believe that it would be a good idea to change the forum name.  As timeshare owners gravitate to Destination Clubs, Residence Clubs, Fractionals, Condo-Hotels, etc., this type of Interval Ownership will become "Traditional".

I agree that it would beneficial to have more than just the majority of High Country Club owners involved in the forum.


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## PerryM (Mar 25, 2007)

*Negative = Positive*

The Helium Report makes it’s livelihood in getting advertising money from the DC developers – finding a negative article or voice of descent will be hard to find.  If you do find it here is the sample review:

“The DC did not meet our expectations – they exceeded them!”

“The DC was priced wrong – it was TOO low!”


You get the idea, negatives that are really positives – did anyone expect something else?


If you want to change the name of this forum; here is my suggestion:

*“Non-timeshare ownerships”*


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## HeliumSF (Apr 11, 2007)

*Helium Report Reviews - What's going on?*

I can assure you that we are working hard to make sure reviews are not a "SCAM". We attempt to verify that all reviews are genuine - written by a real person, and that they add value to the evaluation process. That is why there is a delay for reviews to be posted on our site, after they have been written. 

Reviews are a new feature on our site, and yes, as you might expect, destination clubs have encouraged their members to write reviews - and so far, only the satisfied members have taken the time to write reviews.

But it's our goal to have an active review database, reflecting all opinions - good, bad or indifferent. We are hoping that over time, more members, guests and owners will learn about our site and post more reviews - that are genuine, helpful critiques of these companies and programs. We'll see.

Greg at Helium Report


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## travelguy (Apr 11, 2007)

Greg,

Welcome to TUG.  It's always good to have someone from the industry contribute to our forum on Destination Clubs, Fractionals, etc.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 11, 2007)

Greg,

Thanks for your reply. 

Welcome to Tug!


Richard


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## PerryM (Apr 11, 2007)

*A peek under the covers?*

Hi Greg and welcome to TUG and this forum.

I congratulate you for a fine web site and an easy way for folks to get some information about DCs.  I hope your venture is profitable and I have no qualms with someone making a livelihood.

I have a few major problems with DCs as a whole, they are:

1)	No consumer protection like other types of real estate

2)	Financial numbers that make no sense at all

3)	Founders of the DC can close the club anytime they choose

4)	Members could find themselves losing ALL their money if the founders run the club poorly

5)	NO real estate appreciation

I’d like to ask you if you have been exposed to some of the “Creative Accounting” that seems to make the DC world work.  We have some in the timeshare world but most of it is now common knowledge.  Specifically:

1)	How does a DC that “Buys” $800k condos sell memberships to 8 individuals for $40k?

2)	The mortgages needed to make the above work expose the DC to all sorts of pressures like faulty accounting to begin with and slow sales

If I had more of an insight to the “Creative Accounting” needed to make 95% of all DCs work I would feel much better.  I’ve come up with my own theories but they scare the hell out of me – a reason I won’t be buying a membership unless a new startup group starts and the money I put up could be lost at Vegas and I wouldn’t lose any sleep.

So, any insights to this or my concerned areas would be greatly appreciated.

P.S.
My biggest concern is the “*China Syndrome*” - a cascading failure of the entire DC industry.  It would start out with one DC and, for whatever reason, that club can’t attract new members and the highly leveraged mortgages can’t be serviced causing selling of several/many of the condos/homes with no new members signing up.  Existing members want to get out but can’t with the 2 or 3 or 4 in/ and 1 out clause.  That one DC then cascades failure/doubt to spread to other DCs with the same thing happening.  The resulting meltdown would cause all the members to lose all their money - the total destruction of the entire DC industry.  The lending institutions would get serviced first.

What safeguards prevent my China Syndrome?


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 11, 2007)

Greg:

Welcom to TUG...there are about 10 DC owners here.

I was the original poster that questioned the reviews of Spring Ridge Club. As I said, it seemed fishy to me that so many were done in such a short period of time and all glowing. I am simply stating that I don't think this happened "naturally". If SRC did convince their members to post on Helium...that is fine, however, if SRC is posting for them, then that is shady.

I really enjoy the Helium Reports and frequently mention your site on this forum, but the reviews could be a little more OBJECTIVE in my opinion.

I hope you take an active role on this forum and look forward to your insites.


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## travelguy (Apr 11, 2007)

*Destination Club Members*



Steamboat Bill said:


> there are about 10 DC owners here.



Bill,

I believe there are many more than 10 DC owners.  Heath @ High Country Club told me that he knows of at least 15 TUG members who are also High Country Club members.  Who knows how many DC members are on these boards but don't post?


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## RLG (Apr 12, 2007)

PerryM said:


> What safeguards prevent my China Syndrome?



There are no safeguards.

It's interesting, however, that the trigger event has already happened.  Private Retreats/Distinctive Retreats/Abercrombie & Kent/Tanner & Haley accounted for virtually all destination club members who didn't belong to Exclusive Resorts.  Their bankruptcy highlighted many of the issues you have pointed out in this thread (and I've pointed out elsewhere.)

Surprisingly, it doesn't seem to have had much impact.  Clubs seem to still attract new members who are willing to put up substantial amounts of money with no oversight or control.

Of course, all the other clubs have tried to make it sound as though the problems with Tanner were unique to them and not symptomatic of the entire industry.  Would you expect them to say otherwise?


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## PerryM (Apr 12, 2007)

*Maxwell Smart had it right..*

Old Maxwell Smart had the infamous “Cone of Silence”.  I think the DC industry has a new version, the “Cone of Ignorance” – this mysterious effect emanates from the DC’s salesrep’s telephone and travels over the wires to the phone in the prospect’s hand – all knowledge seems to be absorbed out of the person’s mind.

Thousands of highly intelligent individuals get zapped by the Cone and turn over hundreds of thousands of dollars to folks over the phone for a chance to buy someone else a condo and then they get to use the other guy's condo for a while.

I must admit that the more I’m exposed to DC’s the more I believe that the “Cone of Ignorance” is real.

P.S.
And you guys thought my tinfoil hat was obsolete - it's the only protection that works.


P.P.S.
Let's all remember what is really happening here:

8 folks get together and buy another guy a beautiful condo and then pay him rent to use it.

Call me crazy, but this just doesn't fit into any investment scenarios I learned in B school.


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## huestous (Apr 15, 2007)

PerryM said:


> 8 folks get together and buy another guy a beautiful condo and then pay him rent to use it.



This is the most succinct definition of a DC that I've seen to date.


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## travelguy (Apr 15, 2007)

*8 People and 28 Beautiful Condos (and counting)!*

Perry,

Since you continue to rant on and on, and since no one has taken the bait recently, I'm game:



PerryM said:


> 8 folks get together and buy another guy a beautiful condo and then pay him rent to use it.



BUT ... Us 8 folks get to use those beautiful condo*S* (multiple beautiful condos) at 1/4 the fair market rate, when we want to use them, and without the ongoing liability of ownership.  

AND ... If we want to pay more and participate in the appreciation of that beautiful condo, WE CAN!!  (It's called investment in the DC).

P.S. - I'm happy with my decision to become a High Country Club member!

P.P.S. - It sounds like you're bitter about your decision not to become a High Country Club member!

P.P.S.S. = IMHO


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## PerryM (Apr 15, 2007)

*Floaters....*



travelguy said:


> Perry,
> 
> Since you continue to rant on and on, and since no one has taken the bait recently, I'm game:
> 
> ...




Doug,

If ranting is debating “the other side” of DC, then you can count on me for more of this debate - heck, consider me “Fair and balanced” in this debate.  The side the DC industry, represented by the Helium Report and all the jubilant salesreps on the phone amply speak for their side of the deal – I’m trying to present the other side.

I stick with my statement:
*“8 folks get together and buy another guy a beautiful condo and then pay him rent to use it.”*

Also; consider that there are NO protections, either in the form of real estate laws or consumer protection laws that insulate the members from management’s decisions.  This is a HUGE area of concern that all prospective members need to consider – you are at the mercy of the slick salesreps who, just like timeshare salesreps, are not above deceiving, and flat out lying.  I certainly don’t expect more from the DC salesrep than the timeshare salesrep.


That’s exactly what all members of a DC do.  Only 5% of all DCs seem to have it right:

*“8 folks get together and buy themselves a condo and pay a management fee to enjoy it – and participate in the real estate appreciation”.  *There is no reason why more BelleHavens can’t be started or Co-ops for that matter.

Just look at what happened to the pioneer DC – belly up.  In the investment world there are no more clarion calls when the founding company of an industry goes belly-up – none.  *Floaters in the water should tell you a lot about what's in those waters.*


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 15, 2007)

PerryM said:


> If ranting is debating “the other side” of DC, then you can count on me for more of this debate - heck, consider me “Fair and balanced” in this debate.  The side the DC industry, represented by the Helium Report and all the jubilant salesreps on the phone amply speak for their side of the deal – I’m trying to present the other side.
> [/B]



I enjoy both sides of the debate.

For me, the risk was well worth the (current) reward. I love to take family vacations and I simply chose to to buy a DC membership rather than another timeshare. I feel that even if the entire DC industry goes bust (something I highly doubt), I am still getting my money's worth.

HCC represents the best DC deal out there in terms of $/night. However, if I ever win the lotto.....I am immediatly calling Exclusive Resorts and joining their Elite membership for $425,000.

At the present time, I think HCC gives me much more for my money as their fees are LOWER than many top timeshare resorts.


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## PerryM (Apr 15, 2007)

*Throw away investments...*



Steamboat Bill said:


> I enjoy both sides of the debate.
> 
> For me, the risk was well worth the (current) reward. I love to take family vacations and I simply chose to to buy a DC membership rather than another timeshare. I feel that even if the entire DC industry goes bust (something I highly doubt), I am still getting my money's worth.
> 
> ...





I think much of this debate is like the debate whether a timeshare is an asset or an expense – it’s in the eyes of the beholder.  Same here, I freely admit that had I stumbled upon HCC 2 weeks earlier the full membership fee was $30k or less and you got 80% of the CURRENT membership fee when you leave I would be a member now.  That, to me, would be a “throw away” fee that I would not lose any sleep over and would probably get my money’s worth out of.  It could not be justified by any other logic.

However, even if I were a member of HCC, and my brother-in-law asked if he should plunk down $60k (starting 5/1/07) I would bring up all the arguments against the membership that I’ve presented – and against the entire DC industry.  If he then decided to buy, he did his due diligence and I would feel that I did my part.

So if $60k is nothing you would lose any sleep over and you probably could get 5 or more years of usage and you did your due diligence then that’s a great investment for you.

I suspect that the folks buying memberships of $200k has this same “throw away” attitude – its chump change to them and worth the risk.  They probably own multiple second homes and don’t want that hassle and are willing to give DCs a shot.

However, these are not reasons to stop pursuing more insight into the DC industry - another HCC will come along and the same decisions will be made by me.  I would hope that the DC industry joins the consumers in discussing many of these hot topics.


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## travelguy (Apr 16, 2007)

*"Rant"*



PerryM said:


> Doug,
> 
> If ranting is debating “the other side” of DC, then you can count on me for more of this debate.



Perry,

You're the big Wikipedia guy so here's their definition of "rant":

 "A rant is a widespread and distinctive phenomenon of emotional speech or writing *usually consisting of complaints or attacks*, sometimes in a political nature. Rarely, rants express great praise, defending an idea or a person from attack.  The biological basis of ranting is found in a distinctive temporary excitation of the central nervous system. Functional-neuroimaging studies suggest that *during a rant the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (the conscious reasoning center of the brain) is not activated*. Instead activation is found in parts of the central nervous system *which function outside conscious awareness*, including those systems which process emotional reward."

Hence by comment on your bitterness of not becoming a High Country Club member when you had the chance.

You obviously have a lot more time than me to post about this issue.  I'll address your other points of view as I have time so the board really will reflect "fair and balanced" views on Destination Clubs.... instead of one man's ill-informed rants.

P.S - IMHO


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## PerryM (Apr 16, 2007)

*Debate and we move the subject forward...*



travelguy said:


> Perry,
> 
> You're the big Wikipedia guy so here's their definition of "rant":
> 
> ...



So then I can’t say anything negative about our WorldMark or Marriott or Westin or Disney?  If you must believe that a scorned person is needed to present opposing sides of the debate then there are a lot of RCI ranters and II ranters and …..  

If you can’t debate the issues then the alternative is to attack the person bringing up these issues – I’m not falling for this - debate me.  Let’s debate instead of throwing around meaningless insults.

So, show me how I’m wrong – show me how the DC has rock solid consumer protection as a starter.  Show me how there are some kind of protections for all those members besides the words that flow out of the phone from the salesreps.  Show me how wrong I am.....


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 16, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Let’s debate instead of throwing around meaningless insults.
> 
> So, show me how I’m wrong – show me how the DC has rock solid consumer protection as a starter.  Show me how there are some kind of protections for all those members besides the words that flow out of the phone from the salesreps.  Show me how wrong I am.....



ok boys....let's keep it nice.

As far as I see it there are two sides of the fence:

1. DC members - These are early adopters and are taking a risk with their investment. As long as the party keeps going...they will be loving life.

2. DC non-members - They are waiting for the perfect club (which may or may never exist).

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer (yet), but the HCC members (including me) seem to be getting great deals on their vacation dollars. 

PerryM on the other hand, makes a compelling argument about transparency of the clubs and his reasons for not joining. Of course the same can be said for all timeshares, but this is a DC forum.

I kinds reminds me about buying a car. In the old days, the salesmen would open the hood and show you the engine and have you kick the tires. Now days, people don't care and only want to pick the color and get a good price.

Hopefully, one day, we will get past opening the hood of DCs to see how they work and simply pick the one that offers the best features for you.


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## PerryM (Apr 16, 2007)

*Irrational exuberance - those words do have a meaning...*

This debate on DCs or timeshares or condo-hotels is really about the risk/reward ratio for each individual.

As of this moment I see NO DC that I’d buy a membership from.  That could change for many reasons:

1)	A new DC could start with a risk/reward ratio that I’m happy with

2)	I could learn more about the current DCs that cause me to reevaluate my risk/reward ratio

3)	The DC industry could self-regulate itself and enact a “Code of conduct/ethics” that members would follow

4)	The government could get involved and start to regulate the industry

All of this requires a thorough understanding of how DCs operate – a subject I’m still in the dark about.  I’m assuming that we will buy a DC membership in the next 3-5 years when one or more of the above happen.

Until then, a healthy dose of skepticism of the entire DC industry should be the guiding principle that any person contemplating buying a DC membership should exercise.  The other side of the coin is the irrational exuberance that the DC industry pumps out daily; just pick up the phone and it will flood the room.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 16, 2007)

Perry

What is your opinion of Exclusive Resorts? 

They are clearly the DC industry leaders and have an excellent track record. Unfortunately, for TUGers, their prices are quite high as they focus on $3-4m properties and their computed average cost per night is about $1,400.


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## PerryM (Apr 16, 2007)

*Scratching my head....*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Perry
> 
> What is your opinion of Exclusive Resorts?
> 
> They are clearly the DC industry leaders and have an excellent track record. Unfortunately, for TUGers, their prices are quite high as they focus on $3-4m properties and their computed average cost per night is about $1,400.



So goes Exclusive Resorts goes the DC industry?

Because of their entry price (I remember when it was $150k, I think, many years ago) I've not looked at them.  I would imagine that a thorough analysis needs to be done - an ongoing one.  The market they are after are the folks who already own multi-million dollar second, third homes and there membership fee is no big deal to them.


I do remember seriously considering them 4 years ago or so.  I don't know if their business model is sound, but that's not just them, its all the DCs.

I would suggest that they would be worthy of a group analysis - just how do they work internally?


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## PerryM (Apr 16, 2007)

*Why do membership fees rise?*

Why do DC membership fees rise when real estate is not really what they are based upon?  (BelleHaven excluded)

If the DC industry really wants to sell a membership into a DC and that membership fee has nothing to do with equity, then why are they tied to the underlying price of the condos being currently bought?

Why not just have a membership fee that is much much lower than if equity were being bought?


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## GregGH (Apr 16, 2007)

*oh - how a thread chnages when blowin in the wind ....*

Wow -- the heat - I can feel the heat! ...   Bill is right -- a bit warm for the rest of us  ...  ...and I really wonder if the word 'rant' if quite called for,  Perry has a unique and often surprisingly clear view on points, IMHO

In fact, the quote that  Perry did is priceless on the definition of a DC ...
"8 folks get together and buy another guy a beautiful condo and then pay him rent to use it."    Wish I have that clarity!  But - I too am also a person who looked at DC's and backed away.

This thread started as a question on Helium and was their user feedback truly 'honest' -- and is quickly drilled down the core of the issue -  trying to guess where DC's will be in 5 years.  Maybe we have to wait and time will tell.  Look at the issues ( real estate bubbles, any decline in membership, long periods of recession ...etc etc) - it will be interesting.

And - speaking of Wikipedia --I have sent a PM yesterday to tug moderators to have wiki links attached to the 'ADVICE' pages for TS's ( and I guess we should have DC's added , too ).   Wiki technology is a GREAT way for us to keep pages up to date for all these places (and help sell more TUG memberships, too   What a wonderful way to keep the HCC info absolutely up to date.  If you have not seen a Wiki --- do a google search and see what it really is.  Gotta love changing technology!

I have learned so much from this forum!  Thanks!

Regards to all
Greg H


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## GregGH (Apr 16, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Why do DC membership fees rise when real estate is not really what they are based upon?  (BelleHaven excluded)....snip...



Hard to leave this alone 

1)  when I was serious - the increases seemed tied to pushing the new person to close the deal before the price went up again ... I really disliked this tactic  ( I wasn't looking at HCC back then )

2) what would the DC industry look like --if they allowed members to SELL their membership on the open market as well as wait for the 2 in 1 out ( or 3 in 1 out ... )     Market forces would tell us what they where worth - in theory one might assume a buyer would look for the re-sale and both buyer and seller could have a good deal.  too bad we will never know - the rule that you have to sell back to the club ... hmm ....

Regards
Greg


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## travelguy (Apr 17, 2007)

*Does the air need cleared?*

I'm Back ... but still time challenged for now.



PerryM said:


> So then I can’t say anything negative about our WorldMark or Marriott or Westin or Disney?  If you must believe that a scorned person is needed to present opposing sides of the debate then there are a lot of RCI ranters and II ranters and …..



Actually I believe this may be developing into a "points vs. weeks" type of debate that rages on in the other forums and is (IMHO) totally non-productive.  Please feel free to say anything you want, both negative and positive.



> If you can’t debate the issues then the alternative is to attack the person bringing up these issues – I’m not falling for this - debate me.  Let’s debate instead of throwing around meaningless insults.



It's not my intention to insult you, just to call you out when I believe that your facts may not be correct.  I am concerned that you continue to say the same things over and over again, even in posts that don't have anything to do with what you are saying.  Hence my reference to "rant".  I apologize if you found that insulting as it was meant to be more of a sarcastic commentary (an art which is hard to convey in written text).  For the record, I respect your comments, opinions and posts.  And yes ... let's debate!



> So, show me how I’m wrong – show me how the DC has rock solid consumer protection as a starter.  Show me how there are some kind of protections for all those members besides the words that flow out of the phone from the salesreps.  Show me how wrong I am.....



Time allowing, in the near future, I'll do just that.


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