# Sunterra UDI Points: How do I get rid of them?



## BoredinVT (Jun 30, 2007)

I have some UDI points in Club Sunterra. Can they be sold?  If not, how does one dispose of them when you're no longer wanted?  Thanks


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 30, 2007)

*eBay*

I regularly see clubless UDI Cypress Pointe Grande Villas points for sale on eBay. 

Price'm low & they will go. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Bill4728 (Jul 2, 2007)

BoredinVT said:


> I have some UDI points in Club Sunterra. Can they be sold?  If not, how does one dispose of them when you're no longer wanted?  Thanks



You'll see things on this website which says things like "you'll only get 1/2 or less than you paid from the developer."  Well, with Sunterra, it is more likely going to be 10-20% or less. When you sell Sunterra, you can only sell what you own and can not sell membership in Club Sunterra, this greatly lowers the value of what you are selling.


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## timeos2 (Jul 2, 2007)

*free cheap enough?*

Over the past two years I've offered three UDI's from Grande Villas - all small, 1000 point packages - for free. Just this past weekend one was free AND they would pay the $290 closing. No thank you. These types of UDI's that don't reoresent but a day or two use only at the resort are the definition of worthless.  Hopefully Sunterra will just take them back. They never should have been sold.


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## BoredinVT (Jul 2, 2007)

John,
   It's funny you should mention CP Grand Villas. That's where my 4500 worthless UDI's are located.  Now, I'm just sitting back waiting for our 'Special Assessment' to arrrive in the mail to see how much more it's going to cost me to keep my worthless UDI's at CPGV...Yippee!!


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 2, 2007)

*Once Worthless, Always Worthless?*




timeos2 said:


> Hopefully Sunterra will just take them back. They never should have been sold.


OK, supposing SunTerra takes'm back.  Then what?  The deeds & master condo association docs., etc., provide that the timeshare units & UDIs cannot be further redivided -- i.e., I can't turn my every-year 3BR lock-off into an EEY plus an EOY & I can't sell off the 2BR "A" unit separately from the lock-off 1BR "B" unit.  So unless there are special provisions applying to SunTerra as official _developer of record_ at CP2, it's stuck with the same useless UDIs it takes back just as they already are & always will be forevermore amen. 

Too bad a bunch of miscellaneous useless & semi-useless oddball timeshare UDIs can't be glommed back together & then redivided as perfectly good regular (floating) timeshare weeks. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 2, 2007)

AwayWeGo said:


> Too bad a bunch of miscellaneous useless & semi-useless oddball timeshare UDIs can't be glommed back together & then redivided as perfectly good regular (floating) timeshare weeks.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Unless I'm missing something Alan, I think the Sunterra system pretty much allows that to happen.  All someone need do is pick up enough of those "worthless" UDI's and they will have enough points available to start booking whole weeks.  If those UDI's are "worthless" as 1000 SunOption units, then that's a chance for someone to pick those up cheap to add to a portfolio. Savvy Owner has managed to convert those small units into a big enough package to start reserving individual weeks, and Savvy Owner has done accumulated those units far more cheaply than they would have simply buying the same size package as a whole unit.

****

But that's not the end of the story. Savvy Owner, if so inclined, can use the Spence Gambit to consolidate the units and get them into Club Sunterra.  To do the Spence Gambit, Savvy Owner pays the bucks to Sunterra for a 2500 point SunOption purchase with Club Membership.  As part of the purchase, Savvy Owner has Sunterra consolidate the small UDI's with the new purchase to create a single larger UDI that is affiliated with Club Sunterra.

Voila! Now Savvy Owner has combined all of those small "worthless" UDI's into a single larger (and thus more valulable) UDI.  Since Savvy Owner acquired those small UDI's on the cheap because they were so small, Savvy Owner is now has acquired a bunch of Club SunOptions at even lower cost than Spence usually pays for his.

***

Truly, one Sunterra owner's trash can be another's gold.


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## JoeMid (Jul 2, 2007)

AwayWeGo said:


> OK, supposing SunTerra takes'm back. Then what? The deeds & master condo association docs., etc., provide that the timeshare units & UDIs cannot be further redivided -- i.e., I can't turn my every-year 3BR lock-off into an EEY plus an EOY & I can't sell off the 2BR "A" unit separately from the lock-off 1BR "B" unit. So unless there are special provisions applying to SunTerra as official _developer of record_ at CP2, it's stuck with the same useless UDIs it takes back just as they already are & always will be forevermore amen.
> 
> Too bad a bunch of miscellaneous useless & semi-useless oddball timeshare UDIs can't be glommed back together & then redivided as perfectly good regular (floating) timeshare weeks.
> 
> ...


 


T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Unless I'm missing something Alan, I think the Sunterra system pretty much allows that to happen. All someone need do is pick up enough of those "worthless" UDI's and they will have enough points available to start booking whole weeks. If those UDI's are "worthless" as 1000 SunOption units, then that's a chance for someone to pick those up cheap to add to a portfolio. Savvy Owner has managed to convert those small units into a big enough package to start reserving individual weeks, and Savvy Owner has done accumulated those units far more cheaply than they would have simply buying the same size package as a whole unit.
> 
> ****
> 
> ...


 
While someone may be able to collect a bunch of these 'worthless' UDIs and then get them all into the Club for a fee so that they work together, I think the problem may remain of exhorbitant maintenance fees.  You aren't really combining the UDIs, you're putting them in the Club.  

I've Seen CPGV UDI billings and there seems to be a 'common' fee for UDI owners (no matter what size) then a fee per point.  So you would end up paying that common fee many times over, just what I think is the case.


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## timeos2 (Jul 2, 2007)

*No can do or it would have been done*



JoeMid said:


> While someone may be able to collect a bunch of these 'worthless' UDIs and then get them all into the Club for a fee so that they work together, I think the problem may remain of exhorbitant maintenance fees.  You aren't really combining the UDIs, you're putting them in the Club.
> 
> I've Seen CPGV UDI billings and there seems to be a 'common' fee for UDI owners (no matter what size) then a fee per point.  So you would end up paying that common fee many times over, just what I think is the case.



You beat me to the post!  That is absolutely the problem.  You need at least 7000 or more options (points) to make a full red use week. Each one of these worthless UDI 1000 to 1500 option contracts is a separate annual fee. I didn't bother to price the latest one but one that I almost accepted (thank heavens for due diligence) in 2005 was $295/year for 1000 options and fees have gone up since then!  Thats without the annual club fee if you rejoin or the $2900 to re-up into Club. As they are sold or given away they are only good at the resort - not in Club - and they represent at best a day or two of use. 

Nope, this is no cheap way to amass Sunterra options. It is better nick named fools gold.


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 2, 2007)

*U.D.I., Shmoo-Dee-Eye.*




JoeMid said:


> You aren't really combining the UDIs, you're putting them in the Club.


 OK, so putting'm back into Club SunTerra is not the same as recombining them into some kind of usable stand-alone intervals -- if not full timeshare weeks then at least usable quantities of resort-specific UDI timeshare points.  But what the O.P. wanted to know is how to get rid of'm after _quitting_ Club SunTerra -- not ways of getting in even deeper.





JoeMid said:


> I've Seen CPGV UDI billings and there seems to be a 'common' fee for UDI owners (no matter what size) then a fee per point.  So you would end up paying that common fee many times over, just what I think is the case.


Whoa -- a good reason (from SunTerra's perspective) not to take back those semi-useless oddball timeshre UDIs.  It's 1 thing for the peons to pay multiple 'common fees,' something else again for the developer of record to be stuck with having to pay'm.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Jul 2, 2007)

*They created a monster*



AwayWeGo said:


> Whoa -- a good reason (from SunTerra's perspective) not to take back those semi-useless oddball timeshre UDIs.  It's 1 thing for the peons to pay multiple 'common fees,' something else again for the developer of record to be stuck with having to pay'm.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Yes. I'd be worried about the Association in this case.  Chances are given the scenario they (Sunterra sales) have now put them into there are owners - I know of at least 4 - who want out. They can't even give these things away so, in all likelihood, are going to simply walk away from the mess, stop paying fees (there goes the delinquent number back up they have worked so hard to get down) and let the week be foreclosed (MORE money out of the Association pocket).  And then what does the Association do with them? You can't reliably rent them as they are small slices of time/units.  They can't sell them - they appear to be truly worthless.  

One of the best things we discovered about Cypress Pointe Resort (aka Phase 1) was the fact that despite being extremely flexible to use, with 100% float time and the ability to split the units into 1/2 bedroom and into 3 & 4 day split weeks all without requiring a Club membership, they were also sold very simply. Every week is a three bedroom, deeded week. Period. End of story. All owners pay the same fees, own the same type unit and have the same use rights within the only two designated seasons (Diamond & Emerald time).  

Compare that to the nightmare that evolved over the years at Grande Villas where, at the least, there were 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units sold by deeded week, 1,2, 3 bedroom units sold as RTU weeks, UDI sold as 1,2, and 3 bedroom but in as little as 1 day worth of value and more I've probably missed. Oh yes, Club keep your deed and Club in the Trust! Some also have ROFR clauses (but they have never been exercised to my knowledge). How it can be billed, how you know if your paying the correct amount, how you know what you actually own unless you have some of the few deeded ownerships is beyond me. Call me old fashioned but I'll take a simple 3 bedroom deed any day over all that.  A great example of what happens when sales are made simply to get a sale and not to benefit the buyer.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 2, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> You beat me to the post!  That is absolutely the problem.  You need at least 7000 or more options (points) to make a full red use week. Each one of these worthless UDI 1000 to 1500 option contracts is a separate annual fee. I didn't bother to price the latest one but one that I almost accepted (thank heavens for due diligence) in 2005 was $295/year for 1000 options and fees have gone up since then!  Thats without the annual club fee if you rejoin or the $2900 to re-up into Club. As they are sold or given away they are only good at the resort - not in Club - and they represent at best a day or two of use.
> 
> Nope, this is no cheap way to amass Sunterra options. It is better nick named fools gold.



OK - I'm not familiar with the Florida trust.  I was assuming they were like the Hawai'i trust, where the MF is a direct proportion of the size of the UDI - e.g., a 1000 SunOption UDI would have an annual fee that is one-tenth the annual fee for a 10,000 SunOption UDI.  

Based on the numbers given, though, I concur that my strategy wouldn't make sense.

***

But if a person did collect a bunch of trust UDI's I suspect that Sunterra would combine them as part of an upgrade.  They routinely combine old and new ownerships in the Hawai'i sales offices.


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## JoeMid (Jul 2, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> But if a person did collect a bunch of trust UDI's I suspect that Sunterra would combine them as part of an upgrade. They routinely combine old and new ownerships in the Hawai'i sales offices.


That's the beauty of the Trust (for Sunterra).  They can easily 'foreclose'  without really dealing with the legal aspects of a deed.  They could also take them all back and combine them or whatever because they're not changing deeded property.


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 3, 2007)

*Reglomming The Unglommable.*




timeos2 said:


> And then what does the Association do with them? You can't reliably rent them as they are small slices of time/units.  They can't sell them - they appear to be truly worthless.


If the HOA-BOD ends up owning a bunch of semi-useless UDIs at their own timeshare resort, then at least they could add'm up to whatever the UDIs work out to in terms of unit-days, unit-weeks, etc., & rent'm out at rack rates to the general public or at MF-equivalent rates to owners in good standing. 

Short of foreclosure, maybe the HOA-BOD could also apply a creative approach to using unpaid, default units whose owners are locked out from using them because of non-payment.  That is, when the owners are locked out for non-payment, the HOA-BOD has the right to rent out the units, with the proceeds offsetting the delinquencies.  I seem to recall 1 creative HOA-BOD scheme of offering to sell some form of quasi-ownership of use rights for units to which the HOA-BOD had rental rights because of owner delinquency -- not the same as straight deeded ownership, but a recordable agreement between the HOA-BOD & the person buying use rights to locked-out units.  (That way the HOA-BOD did not have its hand tied pending foreclosure, deed-back, etc.) 

So even though the dinky UDIs don't add up to much individually, presumably the HOA-BOD selling off use rights to miscellaneous UDI intervals it controls can so do by glomming together enough of'm to add up to a regular timeshare week.  That's assuming that offering such use agreements won't conflict with whatever _Exclusive On-Site Right To Sell_ privileges remain with the _Developer Of Record_. 

If there's a downside, I'm guessing it's in the attorney fees to come up with the necessary & appropriate paperwork & in the accounting nightmare involved in keeping track of the reglommed delinquent UDIs. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## az mom (Aug 6, 2007)

*But are they regular points, once in Club??*

Hi all,

Where is Spence to weigh in on this discussion?

My understanding on this was that the UDI points
will be converted into "standard" Club points once
accumulated and then converted into cClub, thereby
being billed with the single Club fee and price-per-
point of all other points.  In that case, it WOULD
be advantageous for a person, if they could
accumulate the small packages cheaply and not
pay too many fees while owning them individually
(convert before maintenance fees due again!)
to gather a bunch of small points packages
and then convert them to Club.  Trash-into-gold.

What am I missing about this picture?

Stacy Stubbs
tug member since 2005
I have resale Sunterra points, but am not a Club Sun member.


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## JoeMid (Aug 6, 2007)

Unfortunately, a UDI at a specific resort is not glommable in AwayWeGo's terminology.  A UDI is a deed that gives ownership in several units and apportions the percentage by a fraction or ratio that represents an amount of Sunoptions or points.  The resort will then usually charge a base maintenance fee for a points deed and a maintenance fee per point.  Even if you add this to a Club Sunterra account at whatever cost they may be charging you still have the maintenance fee for that specific deed to pay.  Thus small UDI deeds are very costly when it comes to maintenance fees.

This is different from Trust ownership where you can add contracts to either a Trust account or a Club account and pay only one 'Trust' base fee.  Which is the scenario that AzMom appears to be trying to describe.


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## BoredinVT (Aug 7, 2007)

JoeMid said:


> Even if you add this to a Club Sunterra account at whatever cost they may be charging you still have the maintenance fee for that specific deed to pay.  Thus small UDI deeds are very costly when it comes to maintenance fees.



JoeMid, You're so right about high M/F's for small UDI's !


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## JudyfromKansas (Oct 10, 2007)

*Friend losing expiring Sunterra points, what to do?*

A friend recently bought into Kaanapali Beach, Maui when (I believe) it was Marriott.  Now it's apparently been bought by Sunterra.  He has 20,000 points he's going to lose by Oct. 31 if not used.  I believe I read somewhere that he could make a reservation using  the points, getting cancellation insurance and then canceling the reservtion later and using the points sometime during the next year. Is this correct and what are UDI's anyway?  

We're both new at this timesharing game.


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## winger (Oct 10, 2007)

az mom said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Where is Spence to weigh in on this discussion?
> 
> ....



LOL I asked this question and was told he is banned for life from this TUGGer's site


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## Bill4728 (Oct 10, 2007)

winger said:


> LOL I asked this question and was told he is banned for life from this TUGGer's site



Spence is no longer posting on TUG.  If you want to ask him a question he does post over on Timeshareforums.com


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## JoeMid (Oct 10, 2007)

JudyfromKansas said:


> A friend recently bought into Kaanapali Beach, Maui when (I believe) it was Marriott.  Now it's apparently been bought by Sunterra.  He has 20,000 points he's going to lose by Oct. 31 if not used.  I believe I read somewhere that he could make a reservation using  the points, getting cancellation insurance and then canceling the reservtion later and using the points sometime during the next year. Is this correct and what are UDI's anyway?  We're both new at this timesharing game.


Well, Kaanapali Beach Club, a Premier Sunterra Resort (and pretty soon a Premier Diamond Resorts International Resort) was the former Embassy Vacation Resort.  EVR was a franchise and Sunterra has been the owner for a longggg time, they just decided to quit the franchise for this resort, Lake Tahoe, and Grand Beach Orlando.

What to do with 20,000 points this late in the year.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, immediately save 5,000 points to 2008, at this late date, that's all you can save, do it now, do it before Oct 31, you can do it online or call CS.  

OK, now you have 15,000 points.  Immediately start looking at Interval International for anything you can use/book.  Not a search, but book.  Any reservation made (for any future date in 2007, 2008 & 2009) by Oct 31 2007 through I.I. can be made using 2007 points.  After Oct 31 you must use 2008 points.

Ask questions if you don't understand this or you're losing out.  

p.s. You don't actually lose until Dec 31 but it's way too late by then, WARNING cancellation insurance is great except for the fact that if you book something with what they call Reservation Protection Plan, you get back all the points right back into the year they came from which doesn't do you any good.  RPP is only good for reservations early in the year when you still have something possible with the points.


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## CharlesS (Oct 12, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> They can't even give these things away so, in all likelihood, are going to simply walk away from the mess, stop paying fees (there goes the delinquent number back up they have worked so hard to get down) and let the week be foreclosed (MORE money out of the Association pocket).  And then what does the Association do with them?



Forgive me for I am lost in who owns what, etc.  If you can give me easy Yes or No answers to the following questions, it might help me.  Let's assume I own 1000 Sun Options.  

1.  Do I have a real deed to a unit/time interval?

2.  If the answer to #1 is no, does Sunterra hold the deed?

3.  Do I pay my maintenance fees to the HOA?

4.  Do I pay my maintenance fees to Sunterra?

5.  If the answer to #3 is No and the answer to #4 is Yes, does Sunterra pay my maintenance fees to the HOA?

6.  If the answer to #3 is No and the answer to #4 is Yes, does the HOA get the base fee ($295 in 1005) as well as the per point fee?

7.  By now you know where I am going.  But I can't ask the next question (since I promised that all I wanted are easy Yes or No answers). So I will wait until I get answers to # 1-7.

Thanks, Charles


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## timeos2 (Oct 12, 2007)

*Answers (as best I know)*



CharlesS said:


> Forgive me for I am lost in who owns what, etc.  If you can give me easy Yes or No answers to the following questions, it might help me.  Let's assume I own 1000 Sun Options.
> 
> 1.  Do I have a real deed to a unit/time interval?



You have a recorded deed for a UDI share (a piece of a piece of a unit). 1000 options is about 2 days in a one bedroom unit I hear. So yes.



CharlesS said:


> 2.  If the answer to #1 is no, does Sunterra hold the deed?



No. Thats  the trust - a different animal. 



CharlesS said:


> 3.  Do I pay my maintenance fees to the HOA?



Yes. 



CharlesS said:


> 4.  Do I pay my maintenance fees to Sunterra?



No. But you may pay Club fees if you are a member (and on resale you cannot be a Club member unless you pay to rejoin. The previous Club membership ends at the sale).



CharlesS said:


> 5.  If the answer to #3 is No and the answer to #4 is Yes, does Sunterra pay my maintenance fees to the HOA?



No. Only in the case of the Trust based owners.



CharlesS said:


> 6.  If the answer to #3 is No and the answer to #4 is Yes, does the HOA get the base fee ($295 in 1005) as well as the per point fee?



N/A



CharlesS said:


> 7.  By now you know where I am going.  But I can't ask the next question (since I promised that all I wanted are easy Yes or No answers). So I will wait until I get answers to # 1-7.
> 
> Thanks, Charles


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## JoeMid (Oct 12, 2007)

CharlesS said:


> Forgive me for I am lost in who owns what, etc.  If you can give me easy Yes or No answers to the following questions, it might help me.  Let's assume I own 1000 Sun Options.
> 
> 1.  Do I have a real deed to a unit/time interval?
> 
> ...





timeos2 said:


> You have a recorded deed for a UDI share (a piece of a piece of a unit). 1000 options is about 2 days in a one bedroom unit I hear. So yes.


TimeOs, how can you say this, what did I miss, he didn't say he had a deed or the Trust, all you know is 1000 SunOptions, that doesn't tell you anything?


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 12, 2007)

*Just Assuming, For The Sake Of Discussion.*




JoeMid said:


> TimeOs, how can you say this, what did I miss, he didn't say he had a deed or the Trust, all you know is 1000 SunOptions, that doesn't tell you anything?


He said Let's Assume I Own 1*,*000 SunOptions (or words to that effect).  Maybe he does.  Maybe he doesn't.  _Mox nix_.  That was the just assumption people's responses got based on.  Not that anything's wrong with that.  (And not that I'm _Time0s_, which I'm not -- not that anything's wrong with that, either.)  So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## JoeMid (Oct 12, 2007)

AwayWeGo said:


> He said Let's Assume I Own 1*,*000 SunOptions (or words to that effect).  Maybe he does.  Maybe he doesn't.  _Mox nix_.  That was the just assumption people's responses got based on.  Not that anything's wrong with that.  (And not that I'm _Time0s_, which I'm not -- not that anything's wrong with that, either.)  So it goes.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


WTF, owning 1000 SunOptions doesn't tell anyone if it's a deed or the Trust.


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## borntotravel (Oct 12, 2007)

JoeMid said:


> What to do with 20,000 points this late in the year.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, immediately save 5,000 points to 2008, at this late date, that's all you can save, do it now, do it before Oct 31, you can do it online or call CS.
> 
> OK, now you have 15,000 points.  Immediately start looking at Interval International for anything you can use/book.  Not a search, but book.  Any reservation made (for any future date in 2007, 2008 & 2009) by Oct 31 2007 through I.I. can be made using 2007 points.  After Oct 31 you must use 2008 points.



I had a problem a few years ago, where even after I booked all my vacations for the following year, I still had around 11,000 points left over, after I saved 100% of my year's allotment.  I booked 2 exchanges through II in premier five star resorts during prime time, knowing that I wasn't going to use them.  I made sure I cancelled them ahead of the 60 days prior to check in and then I ended up with accomodation certificates that were good for one year, with no restrictions and the high trading power of the original points!  Then I ended up using the accomodation certificates for actual vacations I intended on using, allowing me to bank even more points the following year.

Yes, it did cost me double the exchange fee for each week booked, but it was way better than just losing the points.  Don't forget, 6,500 pts. gets you a 2 br premium resort during prime season, so you could get a couple of these.  You could even get three weeks, depending on where, season, and size unit you reserve.

Good Luck!


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## opozarks (Oct 12, 2007)

*ALan - what the heck is a UDI?  *


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 12, 2007)

*U.D.I., Shmoo-Dee-Eye.*




opozarks said:


> *ALan - what the heck is a UDI?  *


Some timeshares are sold by the unit & week -- e.g., B36A10B (Building B*,* Unit 36A & 36B [lock-offs]*,* Week 10). 

Other timeshares are sold as UDIs -- an Undivided Interest in the whole, complete, entire timeshare resort or some designated portion of it, with the UDI typically expressed as a fraction with whole numbers on top & on bottom, maybe (for illustration) something like _An Undivided Interest Consisting Of 3*,*629 */* 1*,*947*,*015 Of The Entirety Of Phase II Of The Condominium Association Known As Pleasant Ridge*,* Township Of Hogwallow (Tree Stump County)*,* Oklahoma_*.* 

UDIs may or may not work out to the equivalent of a full week in an actual timeshare unit.  That's why I prefer straight-weeks ownership, even if my straight week is on the floating occupancy system or is usable in the form of timeshare-exchange points, etc.  

In an Orlando FL timeshare I am semi-familiar with (because I own there*,* resale), the timeshare company sold 3- & 2- & 1BR units as well as various oddball UDIs.  The UDIs made sense at the time they were sold originally because they were sliced up to fit the timeshare company's proprietary points-based mini-system. 

Trouble is, stripped from the pay-to-join points system they started out in, those oddball UDIs might not work out to the equivalent of a full timeshare week -- instead, say, 4 days in a 1BR unit.  That might be OK if I got a fantastic giveaway deal on the oddball UDIs & all I wanted was my 4 days per year in beautiful downtown Hogwallow OK.  But unless I pay big bux to rejoin the proprietary mini-system, I have nothing I can deposit for exchange with I-I or RCI or anybody. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## JoeMid (Oct 12, 2007)

AwayWeGo said:


> In an Orlando FL timeshare I am semi-familiar with (because I own there*,* resale), the timeshare company sold 3- & 2- & 1BR units as well as various oddball UDIs.  The UDIs made sense at the time they were sold originally because they were sliced up to fit the timeshare company's proprietary points-based mini-system.
> 
> Trouble is, stripped from the pay-to-join points system they started out in, those oddball UDIs might not work out to the equivalent of a full timeshare week -- instead, say, 4 days in a 1BR unit.  *That might be OK* if I got a fantastic giveaway deal on the oddball UDIs & all I wanted was my 4 days per year in beautiful downtown Hogwallow OK.  But unless I pay big bux to rejoin the proprietary mini-system, I have nothing I can deposit for exchange with I-I or RCI or anybody.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


It's never OK when you're talking about the oddball (read: small) UDIs at that resort.  The trouble is not in the purchase but in the maintenance fee.  I have next year's bill in front of me and the fixed UDI portion is $377.31 then there's the Real Estate Tax and Variable UDI portion which are keyed to the number of points.  If you own the oddball/small UDI of 1000 points you pay the exact same fixed fee that an owner of 30,000 points pays.  That's what makes these oddball UDIs so untenable, TimeOs2 has talked about this in the past.


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## timeos2 (Oct 12, 2007)

JoeMid said:


> TimeOs, how can you say this, what did I miss, he didn't say he had a deed or the Trust, all you know is 1000 SunOptions, that doesn't tell you anything?



The whole thread was based on a non-trust 1000 option ownership. I haven't seen any Trust 1000 option ownerships for sale but there were plenty of the non-Club 1000 point UDI's sold in the early 2000 period.  It was an assumption. How things would apply to a 1000 option Trust ownership is anyones guess as how/if those can be sold is very unclear.


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## JoeMid (Oct 12, 2007)

BoredinVT said:


> I have some UDI points in Club Sunterra. Can they be sold?  If not, how does one dispose of them when you're no longer wanted?  Thanks





BoredinVT said:


> John,
> It's funny you should mention CP Grand Villas. That's where my 4500 worthless UDI's are located.  Now, I'm just sitting back waiting for our 'Special Assessment' to arrrive in the mail to see how much more it's going to cost me to keep my worthless UDI's at CPGV...Yippee!!





timeos2 said:


> The whole thread was based on a non-trust 1000 option ownership. I haven't seen any Trust 1000 option ownerships for sale but there were plenty of the non-Club 1000 point UDI's sold in the early 2000 period.  It was an assumption. How things would apply to a 1000 option Trust ownership is anyones guess as how/if those can be sold is very unclear.


Wrong, The "whole thread" started with BoredinVT and his 4500 UDI, then at about post#22 CharlesS chimed in with his incomplete info on his assumption.  And, I think 1000pt Trust may exist for some sales to bring other property into the Club.



CharlesS said:


> Forgive me for I am lost in who owns what, etc.  If you can give me easy Yes or No answers to the following questions, it might help me.  Let's assume I own 1000 Sun Options.
> 
> 1.  Do I have a real deed to a unit/time interval?
> 
> ...


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## timeos2 (Oct 12, 2007)

*When you sell they are orphans*



JoeMid said:


> Wrong, The "whole thread" started with BoredinVT and his 4500 UDI, then at about post#22 CharlesS chimed in with his incomplete info on his assumption.  And, I think 1000pt Trust may exist for some sales to bring other property into the Club.



That does seem to be the reason for their existence. But, back to the original question, what do you do with them if you sell or simply don't want to pay the fees anymore? They cannot be sold as club - that doesn't transfer without additional purchase - so you do end up with a very small but costly ownership good only at the resort where the UDI is based.  Doesn't matter if it's 1000 or 4500 - it's still a costly and very hard to utilize ownership at a resort without access to the Club system.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2007)

*Forgive Me If I'm Repeating Myself.  (Woudln't Be The 1st Time.)*




timeos2 said:


> That does seem to be the reason for their existence. But, back to the original question, what do you do with them if you sell or simply don't want to pay the fees anymore? They cannot be sold as club - that doesn't transfer without additional purchase - so you do end up with a very small but costly ownership good only at the resort where the UDI is based.  Doesn't matter if it's 1000 or 4500 - it's still a costly and very hard to utilize ownership at a resort without access to the Club system.


That's exactly what gripes us off about SunTerra & Club SunTerra & SunTerra Trust & just about everything SunTerra except their actual, you know, timeshare resorts, which are fine.  We have non-Club resale ownerships at 2 of'm that we like very much. 

To get the flexibility of a points system (partial-week reservations, last minute discount reservations for just a few points, etc.) we settled for RCI Points rather than shell out any good green money for Club SunTerra membership that would leave us with nothing we could resell when we get tired of it -- nothing, that is, but the underlying timeshare deeds, which we already owned via resale purchase anyway.  Sheesh. 

I mean, Club SunTerra might be plenty nice, but not _that_ nice -- not worth paying big bux for when it evaporates upon resale.  (Notice I'm not saying anything negative about SunTerra's business model, which I can believe works great for the SunTerra bottom line.  That's in respectful memory of Spence.  _Hey, nice business model you've got there, Mr. SunTerra.  Good luck with it.  How's it going for ya ?_ )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## CharlesS (Oct 14, 2007)

*Sorry if I muddied the water.*



JoeMid said:


> Wrong, The "whole thread" started with BoredinVT and his 4500 UDI, then at about post#22 CharlesS chimed in with his incomplete info on his assumption.



I chimed in because I was most confused (I think I said I was lost (mentally not geographically)).  My information could not be complete because I couldn't tell from the discussion if people were talking about having a real deed or if there was a Sunterra trust.  I now know that there is both and perhaps some are talking about one and some are talking about the other.  However, John (and he should know) says that 1000 points is only in one.

CharlesS

PS  I do not own SunOptions and was only trying to figure out what was going on.  I will try to stay out of this mess in the future other than to say that I have a flex week deed which also states it is an UDI.  But that point also may have been made.


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

CharlesS said:


> I chimed in because I was most confused (I think I said I was lost (mentally not geographically)).  My information could not be complete because I couldn't tell from the discussion if people were talking about having a real deed or if there was a Sunterra trust.  I now know that there is both and perhaps some are talking about one and some are talking about the other.  However, *John (and he should know) says that 1000 points is only in one.*
> 
> CharlesS
> 
> PS  I do not own SunOptions and was only trying to figure out what was going on.  I will try to stay out of this mess in the future other than to say that I have a flex week deed which also states it is an UDI.  But that point also may have been made.



John is wrong, in Sunterra, a 1000 SunOptions ownership could be, for example,  a deed for 1000 SunOptions represented by a UDI at any resort that sold that way, or it could be a share of the Florida Trust/CSV-1.  I'm sure there may be other ones out there, maybe an EOY deed for a 2000 pt studio week at some of the resorts.  The lowest point value week in the SunOption book is 1500, just for info.

UDI can mean many things.  If you own a Flex Week Deed, the UDI could mean that you and all other flex week deed holders have an UnDivided interest in a specific unit, or a group of units, and/or the common areas.  The UDI most commonly discussed as a Sunterra owner is a deed for an UnDivided Interest that represents a fractional/points share of a group of units.  It's easy to not understand what they're doing with this and that's part of what makes working with Sunterra on the resale end so hard.


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

*Sheesh*

It is that nice, you can be griped off all you want.



AwayWeGo said:


> That's exactly what gripes us off about SunTerra & Club SunTerra & SunTerra Trust & just about everything SunTerra except their actual, you know, timeshare resorts, which are fine.  We have non-Club resale ownerships at 2 of'm that we like very much.
> 
> To get the flexibility of a points system (partial-week reservations, last minute discount reservations for just a few points, etc.) we settled for RCI Points rather than shell out any good green money for Club SunTerra membership that would leave us with nothing we could resell when we get tired of it -- nothing, that is, but the underlying timeshare deeds, which we already owned via resale purchase anyway.  Sheesh.
> 
> ...


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## timeos2 (Oct 14, 2007)

*The trust has no UDI for the buyers*



JoeMid said:


> John is wrong, in Sunterra, a 1000 SunOptions ownership could be, for example,  a deed for 1000 SunOptions represented by a UDI at any resort that sold that way, or it could be a share of the Florida Trust/CSV-1.  I'm sure there may be other ones out there, maybe an EOY deed for a 2000 pt studio week at some of the resorts.  The lowest point value week in the SunOption book is 1500, just for info.



As for being wrong I'm afraid it isn't me. The current Trust does NOT sell UDI but RTU (Right To Use) good at all resorts in the Trusts.  What the status is for resale on that is a completely different issue and I'm not clear on it at all. But the current Trust (not sure about the first one as even the Trusts are split) does NOT give you any UDI ownership thus my statement that 1000 UDI points are a non-Trust sale. The whole idea of the trusts was to remove the hassle (for Sunterra) of dealing with deeded rights. They hold them for the trust - they are not assigned to the buyers. 

But the "point" is that the 1000 SunOptions in anything BUT the Trust (and that only started about 2 years ago and only at some of the resorts) when offered for resale would ONLY be good at the resort the UDI was based at.  So the buyer would end up with only one resort and only a tiny slice of a unit for a day or two. So effectively thats all the seller has to offer. The Club portion and use disappears at resale. 



JoeMid said:


> UDI can mean many things.  If you own a Flex Week Deed, the UDI could mean that you and all other flex week deed holders have an UnDivided interest in a specific unit, or a group of units, and/or the common areas.  The UDI most commonly discussed as a Sunterra owner is a deed for an UnDivided Interest that represents a fractional/points share of a group of units.  It's easy to not understand what they're doing with this and that's part of what makes working with Sunterra on the resale end so hard.



And again if that UDI is sold the Club features are stripped and you'd be selling/buying only a UDI right to the single resort.


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

*Sheesh*



timeos2 said:


> As for being wrong I'm afraid it isn't me. The current Trust does NOT sell UDI but RTU (Right To Use) good at all resorts in the Trusts.  What the status is for resale on that is a completely different issue and I'm not clear on it at all. But the current Trust (not sure about the first one as even the Trusts are split) does NOT give you any UDI ownership thus my statement that 1000 UDI points are a non-Trust sale. The whole idea of the trusts was to remove the hassle (for Sunterra) of dealing with deeded rights. They hold them for the trust - they are not assigned to the buyers.
> 
> But the "point" is that the 1000 SunOptions in anything BUT the Trust (and that only started about 2 years ago and only at some of the resorts) when offered for resale would ONLY be good at the resort the UDI was based at.  So the buyer would end up with only one resort and only a tiny slice of a unit for a day or two. So effectively thats all the seller has to offer. The Club portion and use disappears at resale.
> 
> ...


Nowhere did I say that the Trust was a UDI.  The Trust is also not what is normally considered a RTU with an expiration.  With the Trust you 'own' a share of the Trust, you don't hold a deed, you don't have a RTU, you are a member of the Trust that holds the deeds.

And absolutely nowhere did I say that Club benefits transfered on resale.


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

BoredinVT said:


> I have some UDI points in Club Sunterra. Can they be sold?  If not, how does one dispose of them when you're no longer wanted?  Thanks


The only way I can figure to do away with small useless UDIs is to buy more.  Buy a nice sizable chunk of trust resale, go to the sales center, lump your useless UDI in a trade for all Trust, of course you'll have to spring some developer bux to do it.  you end up with a Trust account that's in the Club and you are free of the UDI.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 14, 2007)

*Thanks.  I Needed That.*




JoeMid said:


> It is that nice, you can be griped off all you want.


I expressed that poorly & should have taken care to specify it's just my subjective attitude as it aplies to me only, & certainly not intended as a reflection on members who are positive about Club SunTerra. 

Sorry about letting my antipathy to SunTerra's hard-sell arm-twisting "owner updates" & to SunTerra's resale-ineligible timeshare Club spill over onto TUG-BBS.  I mean, their high-pressure "updates" are about on a par with all the other hard-sell timeshare sales pitches I've been exposed to, & no doubt their mini-system _is_ worth it in the experience of lots & lots of satisfied customers.  If I don't like it, I don't have to buy it -- & not buying it should be sufficient, with no need to throw rocks. 

Thanks for the course correction. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Oct 14, 2007)

JoeMid said:


> Nowhere did I say that the Trust was a UDI.  The Trust is also not what is normally considered a RTU with an expiration.  With the Trust you 'own' a share of the Trust, you don't hold a deed, you don't have a RTU, you are a member of the Trust that holds the deeds.
> 
> And absolutely nowhere did I say that Club benefits transfered on resale.



You do have a RTU (call it a Share if you like) in the Trust.  It can be terminated by simply missing one year of payment.  You own nothing but a promise of future use and the right to pay the annual fees.  That type of ownership doesn't appeal to me no matter who offers it. Too much faith in the ongoing ability of the developer/operator to stay healthy. It is closer to a travel club, but at least one with some real estate backing it, than a timeshare. 

Since you "never said" the Trust was UDI then how is it you feel I was wrong in stating that 1000 *UDI* points has to based at a resort? There are by definition.  Since you didn't say Club rights can be transferred at sale and thus those UDI points become orphans should they be sold what is your issue?  It's those  virtually worthless UDI points with excessive annual fees that this thread started with. I don't understand what you are arguing about.

UDI points aren't Trust. Trust isn't UDI.  UDI is deed based at a specific resort. Trust ownership is not.  Club rights don't transfer at resale. What else is there to say?


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> You do have a RTU (call it a Share if you like) in the Trust.  It can be terminated by simply missing one year of payment.  You own nothing but a promise of future use and the right to pay the annual fees.  That type of ownership doesn't appeal to me no matter who offers it. Too much faith in the ongoing ability of the developer/operator to stay healthy. It is closer to a travel club, but at least one with some real estate backing it, than a timeshare.
> 
> Since you "never said" the Trust was UDI then how is it you feel I was wrong in stating that 1000 *UDI* points has to based at a resort? There are by definition.  Since you didn't say Club rights can be transferred at sale and thus those UDI points become orphans should they be sold what is your issue?  It's those  virtually worthless UDI points with excessive annual fees that this thread started with. I don't understand what you are arguing about.
> 
> UDI points aren't Trust. Trust isn't UDI.  UDI is deed based at a specific resort. Trust ownership is not.  Club rights don't transfer at resale. What else is there to say?


I'll call it a share because it's not called a RTU.  You're right about 1000 *UDI* points has to based at a resort.  And, you seem to fully understand the bottom line even if....


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## JoeMid (Oct 14, 2007)

*Shux*

Given your new/current avatar (always seems to be subject to change, What me Worry)  You seem to be confusing the  timeshare company with a Canadian market, or maybe a garden products company, a home builder, a farm, a tent company, a gothic music group, a concrete products company, some apartments, a paint/antique finish, or a wine.  Who knows?  Lucky for them, they were bought and changing their name to Diamond.  Wouldn't want the world to be confused.



AwayWeGo said:


> I expressed that poorly & should have taken care to specify it's just my subjective attitude as it aplies to me only, & certainly not intended as a reflection on members who are positive about Club SunTerra.
> 
> Sorry about letting my antipathy to SunTerra's hard-sell arm-twisting "owner updates" & to SunTerra's resale-ineligible timeshare Club spill over onto TUG-BBS.  I mean, their high-pressure "updates" are about on a par with all the other hard-sell timeshare sales pitches I've been exposed to, & no doubt their mini-system _is_ worth it in the experience of lots & lots of satisfied customers.  If I don't like it, I don't have to buy it -- & not buying it should be sufficient, with no need to throw rocks.
> 
> ...


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 14, 2007)

*Apology Acceted ?*




JoeMid said:


> Given your new/current avatar (always seems to be subject to change, What me Worry)  You seem to be confusing the  timeshare company with a Canadian market, or maybe a garden products company, a home builder, a farm, a tent company, a gothic music group, a concrete products company, some apartments, a paint/antique finish, or a wine.  Who knows?  Lucky for them, they were bought and changing their name to Diamond.  Wouldn't want the world to be confused.


Well*,* I said I was sorry.  Now I'm wondering how long it will take for me to live it down.  

Meanwhile, regarding those little pictures, it's true I stuck with Alfred E. Neuman initially, then switched to something else on request.  Later I realized there's no reason to go with 1 & only 1 -- even though for steady pix it's hard to top Alfred E. Neuman. 

Since that 1st picture switch, I've been refreshing the image with a new 1 approximately once a week, just for variety & nothing more.  (No need to read anything into or out of any particular little picture that's up there, other than 1 more avenue for harmless semi-relevant fun while participating in TUG-BBS.)  

I've stored up lots more mostly recognizable images for future little-picture updates.  Let me know if you have any special requests.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## CharlesS (Oct 18, 2007)

*Just in fun.  Serious readers may ignore.*



AwayWeGo said:


> [ Let me know if you have any special requests.


I was going to ask for a picture of your horn but your links at the bottom brought it up.  By the way, the URL on smoking does not work (maybe it's your way of saying you stopped since the URL stopped). 
Charles


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 18, 2007)

*Ex-Horn.  (YHR-668 Replaced By YHR-666.)*




> Just in fun. Serious readers may ignore.


_Whoa !_ -- TUG-BBS has serious readers?  Who knew?





CharlesS said:


> I was going to ask for a picture of your horn but your links at the bottom brought it up.  By the way, the URL on smoking does not work (maybe it's your way of saying you stopped since the URL stopped).
> Charles


The linked horn picture is left over from photos I used when I listed my Yamaha YHR-668 on eBay -- got taken to the cleaners on that sale, but that's another story.  The picture was still OK for TUG-BBS purposes, so there it is.  I tried updating stuff in the "signature" links -- e.g., that defunct no-smoking hotlink to some overseas picture of a Czech Marlboro pack -- but I found a curious phenomenon when I tried.  It turns out the TUG Grand Pro added a limit to the characters that will fit in a TUG-BBS member's "signature" file -- a limit that was not in effect when I set up that link-filled "signature."  So when I tried replacing the dead Czech Marlboro link with a live hotlink from somewhere else, it would not go.  Therefore, neither would an updated horn picture, nor an updated picture of me & The Chief Of Staff, or anything.  Not only that, I have to wonder whether it was my own size-extravagance in my TUG-BBS "signature" file that led the Grand Pro to establish a "signature" file size limit in the 1st place, I don't know. 

Click here for a picture of my eBay Yamaha YHR-666 with me at the controls.  It's from a December 2006 band rehearsal.

BTW, it's semi-risky to use somebody else's bandwith via "hotlinking" to a picture on that person's web site.  Suppose, for example, the Czech folks somehow got wise that I had hijacked a tiny bit of their bandwidth via that hotlink to their Marlboro pack image & so, just to teach me a lesson, they replaced the Marlboro picture with some horribly inappropriate X-rated disgusting image that would get me banned for life from TUG-BBS -- but they gave that gross picture the same file name & location that originally went with the Marlboro picture.  That would mean anytime anybody clicked my "Tobacco Free" link, they'd see some obscene graphic instead of what I meant for'm to see & I'd be paid back bigtime for violating the no-hotlink taboo. 

The only reason I can think of that my oversize TUG-BBS "signature" file still works is that it's inadvertently grandfathered in -- that is, the software applies the size limit to new "signature" files but was not instructed to pay any attention to "signature" files that are already in the system.  So my choice is to live with my oversize & working but semi-outdated "signature" file, or update it & figure some way of keeping it within the new size limit.  What I'm thinking of doing is establishing a link-laden page off-site & then using the TUG-BBS "signature" file to link to that.  For now, I'm living with my TUG-BBS status quo except for changing those little "avatar" pictures more or less weekly. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 22, 2007)

*Sunterra Points Super Sales Pitch on Kauai*

I foolishly attended the Point at Poipu sales pitch to learn something about points and save $150 on the maintenance fee.  I've never been on this discussion board prior to this post.

What I learned was initially the points were so wonderful I'd have to pay $46,500 to convert my two ocean front weeks unit into points.

After balking and not seeing the worth to us of points after 1 hr and 45 minutes of brow beating the Super Closer, who questioned my intelligence, said their last and final offer was $4,500 to join the Sunterra Points club and the decision had to be made right then.  I said, you mean to tell me if I think it over tonight you won't accept the $4,500 tomorrow.  He said no and walked away.

As my Grandmother use to say, bless her soul, "Stand for something or you'll fall for anything."  

Glad I listened to Grandma Lewis,

Sterling


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## JoeMid (Oct 22, 2007)

Kauai Kid said:


> I foolishly attended the Point at Poipu sales pitch to learn something about points and save $150 on the maintenance fee.  I've never been on this discussion board prior to this post.
> 
> What I learned was initially the points were so wonderful I'd have to pay $46,500 to convert my two ocean front weeks unit into points.
> 
> ...


That looks like over 90% off, why didn't you jump on that, what, didn't come with any extra points?


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 22, 2007)

Two floating weeks a year work just fine and we didn't see any advantage for us whatsoever to convert to points and losing the deeds for both weeks and having to pay $5K for the alleged advantage.  

After scanning a few posts and getting even more confused about points believe we made the correct decision.

Next time I'll avoid the points scam at Sunterra.  They can keep their $150 and worthless "free" gift.

Sterling


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 22, 2007)

*Same Here.*




Kauai Kid said:


> Two floating weeks a year work just fine and we didn't see any advantage for us whatsoever to convert to points and losing the deeds for both weeks and having to pay $5K for the alleged advantage.
> 
> After scanning a few posts and getting even more confused about points believe we made the correct decision.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much how Club SunTerra shakes out for us, too.  You just happened to express it -- most of it, anyway -- more politely than I've been able to manage.  

BTW, I don't recall ever being offered as much as $150 in SunTerra sales pitch inducements -- more like breakfast plus $75 or so, I think.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## JoeMid (Oct 22, 2007)

Kauai Kid said:


> Two floating weeks a year work just fine and we didn't see any advantage for us whatsoever to convert to points and losing the deeds for both weeks and having to pay $5K for the alleged advantage.
> 
> After scanning a few posts and getting even more confused about points believe we made the correct decision.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's a scam, despite what Alan believes, and he doesn't own any.  You don't necessarily have to give up your deeds, you can give Diamond the right to use your time in exchange for an annual allotment of points or you can cash in your deeds for the Hawaii Trust.

Your decision is just fine, if you're a died in the wool Hawaii goer, it's probably just as well to leave the status quo!


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 22, 2007)

*Just 1 Minute --*




JoeMid said:


> I don't think it's a scam, despite what Alan believes, and he doesn't own any.  You don't necessarily have to give up your deeds, you can give Diamond the right to use your time in exchange for an annual allotment of points or you can cash in your deeds for the Hawaii Trust.
> 
> Your decision is just fine, if you're a died in the wool Hawaii goer, it's probably just as well to leave the status quo!


Hey*,* I didn't say it's a scam. 

Kauai Kid said it's a scam. 

Let's give credit where credit is due. 

Sheesh. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Oct 22, 2007)

Kauai Kid said:


> losing the deeds for both weeks and having to pay $5K for the alleged advantage.



The key. You are giving up your deeds. Never a good idea IMO.


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## JoeMid (Oct 22, 2007)

*Sheesh.*



AwayWeGo said:


> Hey*,* I didn't say it's a scam.
> 
> Kauai Kid said it's a scam.
> 
> Let's give credit where credit is due.





AwayWeGo said:


> That's pretty much how Club SunTerra shakes out for us, too. You just happened to express it -- most of it, anyway -- more politely than I've been able to manage.


 
This pretty much looks like a what you said.


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## fnewman (Oct 23, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> The key. You are giving up your deeds. Never a good idea IMO.


I agree - but remember you don't have to do that.  A 'regular' SunTerra membership can serve pretty well - provided you amass enough SunOptions to give you the flexibility to go where you want to go.  I know we (and our children) get about 5+ weeks out of our membership every year.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 23, 2007)

*Well -- Not...Just...Exactly.*




JoeMid said:


> This pretty much looks like a what you said.


Maybe*,* partly -- except for the _scam_ part. 

That looks more like what _Kauai Kid_ said. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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