# Forget Ebola the Anti Vax movement is killing us [2014]



## billymach4 (Oct 10, 2014)

http://qz.com/274230/forget-ebola-this-is-the-viral-epidemic-that-should-really-terrify-americans/

The first patient to come down with the deadly Ebola virus has turned up in Dallas. On Sep. 19, the patient had traveled there from Liberia, which along with Guinea and Sierra Leone is one of three West African countries ravaged by the virus. He’s not actually the first Ebola patient to be in the US; four American medical missionaries working in the region have been evacuated to the US for treatment since the summer. And though we’ve already discussed why it’s highly unlikely that the virus will spread, the fact that the patient was symptomatic for at least four days before being placed in isolation is likely to press the American panic button.
But if Americans really want a viral epidemic to freak out about, here it is:


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## Ken555 (Oct 11, 2014)

Just nuts


Sent from my iPad


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## laurac260 (Oct 11, 2014)

deleted, changed my mind…


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## ondeadlin (Oct 11, 2014)

It's become possible that at some point a concentrated local outbreak of measles, mumps or whooping cough in an urban area will kill hundreds of children and teenagers whose parents bought into junks science and failed to vaccinate them.

When and if that happens, I imagine the percentage of people opting out of vaccinations will drop considerably.


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## billymach4 (Oct 11, 2014)

*Here is an article from Scientific American*

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/straight-talk-about-vaccination/

Last year 10 children died in California in the worst whooping cough outbreak to sweep the state since 1947. In the first six months of 2011, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recorded 10 measles outbreaks—the largest of which (21 cases) occurred in a Minnesota county, where many children were unvaccinated because of parental concerns about the safety of the standard MMR vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. At least seven infants in the county who were too young to receive the MMR vaccine were infected.


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## billymach4 (Oct 11, 2014)

*From TIME*

A disturbing report from the Centers for Disease Control shows what happens when anti-vaccine nonsense wins.

You have to be spoiled to play cute with disease—spoiled or, well, stupid. And today’s announcement from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that measles cases in the U.S. have hit record highs in the first five months of this year is a maddening example of both. I learned of the report in an especially striking way.


http://time.com/136870/measles-antivaxxers-outbreaks/


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## SMHarman (Oct 11, 2014)

billymach4 said:


> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/straight-talk-about-vaccination/
> 
> Last year 10 children died in California in the worst whooping cough outbreak to sweep the state since 1947. In the first six months of 2011, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recorded 10 measles outbreaks—the largest of which (21 cases) occurred in a Minnesota county, where many children were unvaccinated because of parental concerns about the safety of the standard MMR vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. At least seven infants in the county who were too young to receive the MMR vaccine were infected.


But the efficacy of the whooping cough vaccine also plays a part in this.


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## laurac260 (Oct 11, 2014)

Inagine how successful this would be if we coordinated this with screening folks AS THEY CAME IN as well.


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 11, 2014)

ondeadlin said:


> It's become possible that at some point a concentrated local outbreak of measles, mumps or whooping cough in an urban area will kill hundreds of children and teenagers whose parents bought into junks science and failed to vaccinate them.
> 
> When and if that happens, I imagine the percentage of people opting out of vaccinations will drop considerably.



  Very true and I saw this first hand.

  I volunteered giving H1N1 flu injections a few years ago (have to do so many hours to maintain my NP status, so I remain on call in my area as part of a mobile response team). I saw many, many, many anti-vaxxers in  line getting themselves and their children vaccinated. Amazing.




0


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## chriskre (Oct 11, 2014)

ondeadlin said:


> It's become possible that at some point a concentrated local outbreak of measles, mumps or whooping cough in an urban area will kill hundreds of children and teenagers whose parents bought into junks science and failed to vaccinate them.
> 
> .



Not sure if this is junk science.  Maybe just throwing out the baby with the bathwater thinking.  
MMR given all at once overwhelms the immune system of some, obviously not all, but we can't ignore the increase in autism in this country.  

Maybe if this vaccine was spaced out in 3 doses at intervals allowing the immune system to recover, then parents wouldn't be so paranoid.  
What harm would this do?


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 11, 2014)

chriskre said:


> Not sure if this is junk science.  Maybe just throwing out the baby with the bathwater thinking.
> MMR given all at once overwhelms the immune system of some, obviously not all, but we can't ignore the increase in autism in this country.
> 
> Maybe if this vaccine was spaced out in 3 doses at intervals allowing the immune system to recover, then parents wouldn't be so paranoid.
> What harm would this do?



 Chriskre,
  I so agree with you.
  My thoughts only and do not take this as advice. Please consult with your medical clinician and seek their counsel.

I don't think getting Hep B *at birth *is necessary or the MMR all at once and adding another separate immunization like Polio at the same time.
  I am always concerned when grown ups get all of their travel vaccines too close to each other as well.
  I do believe in short spacing, but not too far apart spacing. Let the immune system develop the antibodies and not overwhelm the body.
  Problem is that sometimes parents/guardians/caretakers do not follow through or it's a money issue and it can be traumatic to the child.
  Consulting with your pediatrician or pediatric clinician is one's first and best step. Don't skip any if possible, but seek out advice and direction.


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## MULTIZ321 (Oct 11, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Chriskre,
> I so agree with you.
> My thoughts only and do not take this as advice. Please consult with your medical clinician and seek their counsel.
> 
> ...



Hi Beags,

My understanding is it takes the body about 2 weeks to develop the antibodies after receiving the vaccine.  Is this correct?

Thanks

Richard


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 11, 2014)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Hi Beags,
> 
> My understanding is it takes the body about 2 weeks to develop the antibodies after receiving the vaccine.  Is this correct?
> 
> ...



  Hi Richard,
  Good question.

  Are you talking about the influenza vaccine ? If so, yes. It takes about 10-14 days to develop it. Right after the flu shot, you can help your immune system by getting good/quality sleep, good handwashing, good nutrition/hydration and avoidance of crowds and handshaking.  Also, common surface areas:  door knobs, drawer handles, phones, keyboards, computer mouse, etc ------ wipe them down (steering wheels, too).

This will help avoid taxing your immune system while it mounts the full antibody response.

- That'll be $10.


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## chriskre (Oct 11, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Chriskre,
> I so agree with you.
> My thoughts only and do not take this as advice. Please consult with your medical clinician and seek their counsel.
> 
> .



Beaglemom3, I too am a retired nurse so great minds think alike.  
I have had to look at what we are doing in the medical community with new glasses cause as I said, the increase in autism certainly can't be ignored. 

But yes, patients are terrible with follow up appointments and I understand the financial strain this may create for some, so IMO these vaccines should be free.  I remember when I was in public school as a child, we got vaccinated by the school nurse, not sure what has happened to that program.  

I too am guilty of being lax in my follow up appointments and I certainly know better, but over the years have been vaccinated against everything under the sun, including rabies.


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## Jestjoan (Oct 11, 2014)

*from Facebook page of Patricia Jordan DVM*

Patricia Jordan

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the attorney, radio host, Riverkeeper and author, will read from his book Thimerosal: Let the Science Speak – The Evidence Supporting the Immediate Removal of Mercury – a Known Neurotoxin – from Vaccines. Kennedy has appeared on various TV and radio programs explaining how government is suppressing evidence showing how the ethylmercury-based vaccine preservative damages and kills cells at extremely low doses.


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## theo (Oct 11, 2014)

I am neither a medical expert nor associated with the health care profession in any way. I don't seek to start or engage in "politicizing" this topic, but I will nonetheless gladly and openly express my own (admittedly non-medical professional) personal opinion that the "anti-vaccination" crowd and it's misguided ideology seems to be without factual support or basis, frankly seems just a bit foolish --- and is potentially (and unnecessarily) dangerous in its' consequences to the community at large. 

Preventable measles and whooping cough outbreaks *in 21st century America* are somehow *acceptable* to these misguided, self-righteous people? C'mon, really?  

Just my own personal opinion and viewpoint Your mileage (...and your antibodies) may vary.


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## Mosca (Oct 11, 2014)

Correlation does not equal causation.


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## bogey21 (Oct 11, 2014)

What is the "Anti-Vaccination Movement".  I have never heard of such a thing.

George


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## dioxide45 (Oct 11, 2014)

chriskre said:


> Beaglemom3, I too am a retired nurse so great minds think alike.
> I have had to look at what we are doing in the medical community with new glasses cause as I said, the increase in autism certainly can't be ignored.
> 
> But yes, patients are terrible with follow up appointments and I understand the financial strain this may create for some, so IMO these vaccines should be free.  I remember when I was in public school as a child, we got vaccinated by the school nurse, not sure what has happened to that program.
> ...



I believe vaccinations are now covered by insurance at 100% under the affordable care act, as long as you have insurance?


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## easyrider (Oct 11, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> What is the "Anti-Vaccination Movement".  I have never heard of such a thing.
> 
> George



Scientific investigations finding that vaccines can cause a significant number of the population to have vaccine induced health problems has caused many people to feel that vaccines should not be mandatory. Vaccines usually contain live, altered or dead micro organisms , heavy metals and mutated proteins which have been proven to cause autism, ME ( chronic fatigue syndrome ), narcolepsy, diabetes, epilepsy, schizophrenia and many other health problems as side effects.

These side effects can include death especially in babies where there is a correlation to vaccinations and sudden infant death syndrome. 

Like any drug, each vaccine has its own list of possible side effects. Because vaccines are drugs with side effects a growing number of the population is against mandatory vaccinations. 

It would be hard to argue the point with some one that has had a death of a child , a child with a vaccine caused problem or any person that has suffered a side effect, that some vaccines should be mandatory.

BTW, the best way to stay healthy is to keep your own immune system strong through diet, exercise and sleep.

Bill


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## DeniseM (Oct 11, 2014)

> Vaccines usually contain live, altered or dead micro organisms , heavy metals and mutated proteins *which have been proven* to cause autism, ME ( chronic fatigue syndrome ), narcolepsy, diabetes, epilepsy, schizophrenia and many other health problems as side effects.



Please show me the *proof* - and not a link to a tin hat website....


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## Patri (Oct 11, 2014)

The cause of autism has not been proven. The Autism Society says there is a genetic link. National Autism Association notes vaccinated and unvaccinated children have autism. Mayo Clinic and authoritative organizations agree genetics and environment play a role.


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## billymach4 (Oct 11, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Please show me this proof - and not a link to a tin hat website....



Is a tin hat the same as a foil hat?

Edited to add. Yes it is. Looked it up, and it is a Tin Foil Hat!


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## DeniseM (Oct 11, 2014)

billymach4 said:


> Is a tin hat the same as a foil hat?



Yep - "tin foil"


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 11, 2014)

Patri said:


> The cause of autism has not been proven. The Autism Society says there is a genetic link. National Autism Association notes vaccinated and unvaccinated children have autism. Mayo Clinic and authoritative organizations agree genetics and environment play a role.



  Well put. Science here and not  just "beliefs" .

  It was bad/slanted/crooked research in the British Journal "The Lancet" that has led so many down the erroneous path. The article has been debunked numerous times.


“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”
M. Twain

It gets repeated and slammed again:  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/now-retracted-autism-study-viral/story?id=25248179





0


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## chriskre (Oct 11, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Please show me the *proof* - and not a link to a tin hat website....



I'm not sure there is enough "proof" yet, but it sure bears researching further and not just saying that it's not possible, because it is very possible.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535


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## DeniseM (Oct 11, 2014)

chriskre said:


> I'm not sure there is enough "proof" yet, but it sure bears researching further and not just saying that it's not possible, because it is very possible.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535



Absolutely worth study, and it should be, but it's misleading to post it like it's a done deal.


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## Mosca (Oct 11, 2014)

Here are some other correlations that bear a similar amount of truth:


Spurious Correlations


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## Mosca (Oct 11, 2014)

chriskre said:


> I'm not sure there is enough "proof" yet, but it sure bears researching further and not just saying that it's not possible, because it is very possible.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535




You link another spurious study. It took one Googling of "G DeLong" to find numerous refutations. Gayle DeLong is not a scientist. She is a faculty member in the Department of Economics and Finance at Baruch College.

More Bad Science in the Service of the Discredited Idea that Vaccines Cause Autism


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## Mosca (Oct 11, 2014)

Generally speaking, the increase in autism diagnoses during the '90s can be accounted for by diagnosis substitution: as the condition became better understood, children who had been diagnosed as mentally retarded or learning disabled were instead labeled autistic.

Source: The Contribution of Diagnostic Substitution to the Growing Administrative Prevalence of Autism in US Special Education, Paul T Shattuck, PhD, in the respected journal _Pediatrics_.


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## Clemson Fan (Oct 12, 2014)

Mosca said:


> Here are some other correlations that bear a similar amount of truth:
> 
> 
> Spurious Correlations



I loved this!


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## Clemson Fan (Oct 12, 2014)

Mosca said:


> Generally speaking, the increase in autism diagnoses during the '90s can be accounted for by diagnosis substitution: as the condition became better understood, children who had been diagnosed as mentally retarded or learning disabled were instead labeled autistic.
> 
> Source: The Contribution of Diagnostic Substitution to the Growing Administrative Prevalence of Autism in US Special Education, Paul T Shattuck, PhD, in the respected journal _Pediatrics_.



Bingo!  Hits the nail right on the head and what I've always believed!  I'm not sure the incidence of autism has actually increased.  We know the incidence of the diagnosis of autism has increased, but I do think that's in large part to reclassification of what we now label as autism.


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 12, 2014)

Mosca said:


> Generally speaking, the increase in autism diagnoses during the '90s can be accounted for by diagnosis substitution: as the condition became better understood, children who had been diagnosed as mentally retarded or learning disabled were instead labeled autistic.
> 
> Source: The Contribution of Diagnostic Substitution to the Growing Administrative Prevalence of Autism in US Special Education, Paul T Shattuck, PhD, in the respected journal _Pediatrics_.





Clemson Fan said:


> Bingo!  Hits the nail right on the head and what I've always believed!  I'm not sure the incidence of autism has actually increased.  We know the incidence of the diagnosis of autism has increased, but I do think that's in large part to reclassification of what we now label as autism.





  Yes. I believe this, too. There are more screenings and therefore more detection and diagnoses of autism.  (ADHD, too, if you think about it).


  - When I see a valid, peer-reviewed study of a causal relationship between Autism and vaccines, I will be the first in line to read it. However, there is no credible science to support this out there. Lots of anecdotal and "enthusiastic amateurs" with beliefs, but no credible science. 



=


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Please show me the *proof* - and not a link to a tin hat website....



Here is a boy that received a common MMR vaccination who had adverse reactions that was awarded close to a million dollars recently. 

http://vactruth.com/2013/01/18/mmr-vaccine-causing-autism/

Another study that suggests that childhood vaccines are a leading cause of health issues to the young.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/26/vaccines-adverse-reaction.aspx

Then there is the HPV vaccine that has caused a host of adverse reactions including deaths. 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/26/vaccines-adverse-reaction.aspx

Depending on who is paying for the research there is a correlation to sids and vaccinations. You can google this one yourself.

Side effects of many vaccines can be some serious issues including death according to the CCD.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm


Bill


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## DeniseM (Oct 12, 2014)

Bill - those are all from the Anti-Vax "tin hat" crowd - show me some OBJECTIVE and conclusive, scientific studies.


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## ampaholic (Oct 12, 2014)

Mosca said:


> Here are some other correlations that bear a similar amount of truth:
> 
> 
> Spurious Correlations



Divorce rate in Maine
correlates with
Per capita consumption of margarine (US)

 :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

love it


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## ampaholic (Oct 12, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Side effects of many vaccines can be some serious issues including death according to the CCD.
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
> 
> ...



That can be a "side effect" of everything from sailing to deer hunting to bungee jumping - why do you think the hospital has you sign a waiver before surgery?


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Bill - those are all from the Anti-Vax "tin hat" crowd - show me some OBJECTIVE and conclusive, scientific studies.



If an award winning lawsuit over the MMR vaccine isn't an objective and conclusive finding I don't know what is. If your looking for a study resulting from scientific research the results will vary depending on who is paying for the research.

Also, if you look at the CCD vaccination side effects you can see that vaccinations do cause serious problems for a portion of the population. Because of this fact, vaccinations should not be mandatory and should be considered as with any drug, imo.

Bill


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

ampaholic said:


> That can be a "side effect" of everything from sailing to deer hunting to bungee jumping - why do you think the hospital has you sign a waiver before surgery?



Death is also the last side effect of life. 

Bill


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## DeniseM (Oct 12, 2014)

Bill - If you are going to argue this point, you should know that vaccinations are NOT mandatory, and haven't been for a very long time.  Parents have the legal right to opt-out for their children.  This is exactly what is causing the rise of childhood diseases in the US that were previously considered to have been eradicated in the US.

As ampaholic pointed out, ALL medical treatments and ALL medications have "possible" side-effects.  So should we eliminate them ALL because some people might have a reaction?  That's nonsensical....

BTW - I have an autistic child...so I am far from insensitive to this topic.  I can assure you that his immunizations did not cause his autism.  I knew he was different from birth...


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## Clemson Fan (Oct 12, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Here is a boy that received a common MMR vaccination who had adverse reactions that was awarded close to a million dollars recently.
> 
> http://vactruth.com/2013/01/18/mmr-vaccine-causing-autism/
> 
> ...



Malpractice cases, especially pediatric ones, have very little to anything to do with science.  The malpractice attorneys mainly focus on pulling on the heart strings of the jury about how little Johhny or Jane now have to live the rest of their lives with whatever awful condition they're suing about.  Almost all of the highest awards are awarded to pediatric cases.

BTW, nobody is claiming that there are NO adverse affects with vaccines.  The flu shot can cause Guillian-Barre syndrome at a rate of 1 in a million.  However, to claim that these serious side effects are common is just not true.  There's also now been about 15 years of hard core research into vaccines like MMR leading to autism and so far the research has really shown NO causation.  The claim that the pharmaceutical industry is innapropriately influencing that research to protect their "vaccine cash cow" is also pretty laughable.  The vast majority of vaccines are cheap with very little and in some cases no margin for the pharmaceutical companies.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2014)

easyrider said:


> If an award winning lawsuit over the MMR vaccine isn't an objective and conclusive finding I don't know what is. If your looking for a study resulting from scientific research the results will vary depending on who is paying for the research.
> 
> Also, if you look at the CCD vaccination side effects you can see that vaccinations do cause serious problems for a portion of the population. Because of this fact, vaccinations should not be mandatory and should be considered as with any drug, imo.
> 
> Bill



I did do a search/find on the side effects website you posted from CDC and did not find the term "auti" anywhere on that page. If autism were a noted side effect, wouldn't it be listed?


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

If you actually read my original post it was a reply to George explaining a bit of the anti vax movement. By quoting it and asking for information from me, a person who has had almost every childhood disease and vaccination, who also has no real interest in the vaccine issue, unless I can make a quick buck from it, you are preaching to the preacher. 

That being said, the article claims that the person was able to prove brain swelling caused by the vaccine. This caused the autism. That is what I took from the article.



> Encephalopathy is a swelling of the brain due to infection. Is it possible that autism goes by a different name?
> 
> If this is the first time you have seen or heard of the term encephalopathy, it may surprise you to see it used in the same context as autism. The big question you may have now is, Can vaccines cause encephalitis, or swelling of the brain?
> 
> The answer is yes.



Interestingly to me,ultraviolet light is used to sanitized hospital rooms. Ultraviolet light is used for tanning. They are now going to use this technology to kill viruses like ebola. I hope it works out.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281349.php

Bill


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## DeniseM (Oct 12, 2014)

easyrider said:


> If you actually read my original post it was a reply to George explaining a bit of the anti vax movement. By quoting it and asking for information from me, a person who has had almost every childhood disease and vaccination, who also has no real interest in the vaccine issue, unless I can make a quick buck from it, you are preaching to the preacher.



A gentle suggestion:  Next time, instead of just cutting and pasting info. as if it's the gospel truth, you might preface it with:  _"This is what the Anti-Vax movement claims, and I got this info. at webitexyz.com."_

The way you posted it, with no quotes or footnotes, it appears to be YOUR OWN VIEWS, and not a quote.


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

Maybe you should actually re-read the original post you quoted as it was an explanation to George. In other words, he asked a question and I answered it. If you don't like the answer that would be your problem. In other words, your really no expert on the subject and most of your replies on the subject are argumentative at best. In other words your opinion on the subject is no better than anyone's and less factual than others including mine. 

Time to watch Maning.

Bill


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## DeniseM (Oct 12, 2014)

I read it very carefully - you responded to George with words that were clearly not your own, with no indication of where you got the info.    

When you quote someone else, you should document it - not post it as your own words.  I stand by my post.


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## ampaholic (Oct 12, 2014)

Bill - don't argue with Mom Denise - or she'll send the Giants to ruin YOUR playoff hopes!


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 12, 2014)

Here's my opinion and I have many years of experience in the medical-legal aspects of SAEs (serious adverse events) in vaccines, diagnostics and drugs including chemotherapeutics.

You are entitled to yours, but it would be refreshing if they were based on peer-reviewed scientific studies and not Jenny McCarthyisms. I appreciate a good argument. I am paid to construct good ones and to deconstruct bad ones (even good ones), but we have to be on the same playing field or it won't work. It's like arguing space flight with flat-earthers.

The majority of vaccines work, are safe and the data is not faked.
And that's not from BigPharma findings,  but backed up by investigative studies with data gleaned over decades from independent universities-medical/public health schools from around the world.  

How do you think smallpox was eradicated from most of the world ? By anti-vaxxer mentality ?


The outbreaks of diseases that shouldn't be happening are occurring because of the anti-vaxxers mantra of  "don't vaccinate your kids, it's evil and will harm your child".  That's what's dangerous and the kids will suffer needlessly because of it.
It's not necessary and is causing REAL problems. 


 There are vaccinations that really are lifesaving and disease/disability preventing such as polio, tetanus, Hep  A & B, diphtheria, rubella, rubeola, varicella, meningitis even Rabies & Japanese Enchephalitis when needed. Gardisil/HPV is still being studied and the jury is still out on this one.

Because of this, the misinformed antivaxxers are lumping it with ALL vaccinations and chasing shadows even with vital vaccinations. 

Please view each vaccination individually, don't lump them all into one.


There is a middle ground. There are some doctors who are only against MMR and other combo type immunizations They believe in vaccinating on a safer schedule i.e., only one vaccine per month or every two weeks. In Iceland and Sweden they have reduced and safer vaccine schedules. Studies show that these countries have better infant mortality rates. Causal or not ?

Remember that you can have adverse reactions to novacaine, aspirin, ibuprofen, antibiotics, acetaminophen, decongestants, antihistamines and on & on.

Consider the cost:benefit risk ratio for your family and the community at large.


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 12, 2014)

A good read and PBS special: (one of the scientists at work has this poster in his cubicle).
















  -


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> I read it very carefully - you responded to George with words that were clearly not your own, with no indication of where you got the info.
> 
> When you quote someone else, you should document it - not post it as your own words.  I stand by my post.



These are my own words and it is quite myopic of you to suggest that they are not. Myopic bordering on narcissistic, imo.

I will not be able to post with you before a Seahawk game in the future. As Amp suggested earlier, and I think about it now, this might be the reason Lynch couldn't run today and we lost the game.

Bill


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Here's my opinion and I have many years of experience in the medical-legal aspects of SAEs (serious adverse events) in vaccines, diagnostics and drugs including chemotherapeutics.
> 
> You are entitled to yours, but it would be refreshing if they were based on peer-reviewed scientific studies and not Jenny McCarthyisms. I appreciate a good argument. I am paid to construct good ones and to deconstruct bad ones (even good ones), but we have to be on the same playing field or it won't work. It's like arguing space flight with flat-earthers.
> 
> ...



This is a pretty good explanation of why vaccines should be administered.



Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 13, 2014)

easyrider said:


> This is a pretty good explanation of why vaccines should be administered.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill



Bill,
  Thanks. There are better points that could be made, but this is my spin.

  Forgot to say that it depends on one's allergies; eggs, thimerosal, latex, etc.

  I can remember when Polio was epidemic and we were all lined up for our shots or the sugar cube at school. The smallpox "scratch" vaccination, too.

 Our parents did it to keep us safe as well as "the nation safe" as that's what the "Greatest Generation" did. 

 Take care, stay well.


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 13, 2014)

Here are three PBS documentaries on vaccines and Ebola.  Very educational and thought-provoking.

It's a conversation and a good starting point for both sides.

Yes, the film shows both sides, so you should know this going in, there are those who have been hurt because of being exposed to unvaccinated people, those who have been hurt by vaccines themselves and those who have died from not being vaccinated. 

Autism is addressed as well.


They are worth watching to gain understanding of both sides.

You can watch them on line in their entirety.




http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/making-vaccines.html   Making Vaccines.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/vaccines-calling-shots.html     Calling the Shots.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/surviving-ebola.html    Surviving Ebola.


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## rapmarks (Oct 13, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> A good read and PBS special: (one of the scientists at work has this poster in his cubicle).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I remember the 50's and the big polio scare, and the vaccine coming  out   I had a neighbor campaigning against the vaccine then, and none of  her children were inoculated.


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## MULTIZ321 (Oct 13, 2014)

A Polar Bear Might Keep the Measles Away, But Shots Work Better - by Nancy Shute/ Shots: Health News from NPR/ npr.org

"In the bestselling Ivy and Bean books, 7-year-old Bean puts a lot of energy into avoiding chores and reading. So when her friend Ivy brings up measles shots, Bean is ready with alternatives:

    Wear a hazmat suit for the rest of your life.
    Make an anti-measles force field with 24 hula hoops.
    Cover yourself in a 6-inch protective layer of lard.

The inventive duo will soon be appearing on posters in pediatricians' offices as part of an effort by the American Academy of Pediatrics and international public health organizations to get children vaccinated.

Measles cases spiked in the United States this year, with 594 cases and 18 outbreaks, the highest number since 2000. They were caused by people traveling to the U.S. and infecting people who hadn't had measles shots..."







The heroines of a best-selling book series have been enlisted in the global effort to eradicate measles.
Sophie Blackall 


Richard


----------



## Clemson Fan (Oct 13, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Bill,
> Thanks. There are better points that could be made, but this is my spin.
> 
> Forgot to say that it depends on one's allergies; eggs, thimerosal, latex, etc.
> ...



Just a slight correction.  Thimersal has been removed from all vaccines except the flu shot.  However it's not in the flu live attenuated nasal spray vaccine which provides an alternative.

I've seen the allergy to eggs excuse used the most by health care workers to get out of getting their required flu shot.  Of course most of them list this "allergy" right after throwing away their egg mc muffin wrapper.  

I personally get every vaccine I can.  If they make adjustments to the flu shot kid season then I'll get another one.  I believe the more I can augment my immune system the better.  The worst one was yellow fever!  That gave me a bitchin headache!


----------



## easyrider (Oct 13, 2014)

While I will be a user of vaccines after reading the information on the particular vaccine, I can't blame others who are some what anti vax. If you look at the Amish population that doesn't regularly use vaccinations as an example of an anti vax group the entire vaccine for all idealism becomes questionable. Labeling anti vax groups "derogatory or conspiracy" is short sighted, imo.

Recently there has been an out break of entrovirus in the USA. The children that received the MMR vaccination seem to be the the children not immune to this virus. While this information is not on any CCD or medical study yet it will soon be, imo.

Bill


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## Clemson Fan (Oct 13, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Recently there has been an out break of entrovirus in the USA. The children that received the MMR vaccination seem to be the the children not immune to this virus. While this information is not on any CCD or medical study yet it will soon be, imo.
> 
> Bill



Bill, you always have a good chuckle on hand!  Thank-you for that!  It's needed after our Seahawks laid an egg yesterday!


----------



## Patri (Oct 13, 2014)

The Amish population doesn't mix with the general population, so not relevant to compare the two. Exposure and risk not the same. If a disease got in, could significantly harm the entire troupe.


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## Beaglemom3 (Oct 13, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> Just a slight correction.  Thimersal has been removed from all vaccines except the flu shot.  However it's not in the flu live attenuated nasal spray vaccine which provides an alternative.
> 
> I've seen the allergy to eggs excuse used the most by health care workers to get out of getting their required flu shot.  Of course most of them list this "allergy" right after throwing away their egg mc muffin wrapper.
> 
> I personally get every vaccine I can.  If they make adjustments to the flu shot kid season then I'll get another one.  I believe the more I can augment my immune system the better.  The worst one was yellow fever!  That gave me a bitchin headache!



 Actually, I was referencing vaccines in general and included in there was the flu shot. Thank you for bringing it out.


----------



## VacationForever (Oct 13, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Recently there has been an out break of entrovirus in the USA. The children that received the MMR vaccination seem to be the the children not immune to this virus. While this information is not on any CCD or medical study yet it will soon be, imo.
> 
> Bill



No fact, and yet... this information will soon be.  Don't I just love people who make up sxxx?


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Jan 25, 2015)

Anti-vaxxers Fingered in Disney Measles Outbreak  - by Jack Dickey/ Health/ time.com

Doctors group urges measles shots as Disneyland outbreak spreads

A spokesman for the California state health department has told Reuters that he believes “unvaccinated individuals have been the principal factor” in a mid-December measles outbreak at Disneyland that has infected more than 70 people in six western states and Mexico, including five Disney employees


Richard


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## Jestjoan (Jan 26, 2015)

*Vaccinosis in pets*

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dr-patricia-jordan-vaccine-insights-webinar/

This webinar started us thinking about vaccines. We fired our postcard sending vet.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Jan 26, 2015)

Its simple. Its science. Its proven. Children's vaccinations work, protect your children, and other people and their children.  IMO it should be a crime to refuse to vaccinate your child.  Punishment should be a large fine .


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## billymach4 (Jan 26, 2015)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Its simple. Its science. Its proven. Children's vaccinations work, protect your children, and other people and their children.  IMO it should be a crime to refuse to vaccinate your child.  Punishment should be a large fine .



Like +1

How do the antivax people think the small pox virus was eradicated from the planet? All children got immunized. Common sense.


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## VegasBella (Jan 26, 2015)

Vaccine rates are stable or increasing, so there's not a huge reason to fear the anti-vax movement. And in fact, most of the unvaxed or under-vaxed children out there are poor children whose parents have trouble finishing the series (getting boosters, etc). The anti-vaxers pose a threat but it's relatively low considering that most people vaccinate their children.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-us-children-get-vaccines-but-some-states-do-better-than-others/

What's more, those of us who promote vaccination are likely not being effective with our messaging. The anti-vaxers don't change their minds. 

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/vaccine-denial-psychology-backfire-effect

So, it's better to focus on the poor families who want vaccination but who don't get it due to circumstance. If we can bump those numbers up then herd immunity increases and the risk the anti-vaxers pose is reduced.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 27, 2015)

Im back from a trip to Mexico where I thought I was getting shingles. Anyway, I had a kidney stone is what we think so my doctor said to wait until Im older for the shingle vaccination as the vaccine is a one time vaccination that protects you for about 10 years. I think I have 6 or 7 years to go before I should consider it.

Bill


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## easyrider (Jan 27, 2015)

sptung said:


> No fact, and yet... this information will soon be.  Don't I just love people who make up sxxx?



Im not sure what you mean as there really isn't much substance to your doltish statement, but I guess now would be considered soon. 

Enthrovirus is now for the most part called acute flaccid myelitis. Children with a weak immune systems occasionally become kind of paralyzed with this condition. The mmr vaccine can weaken an infant or child's immune system. 




> Health Alert
> 
> Winter, 2015
> 
> CDC is working with healthcare professionals and state and local officials to investigate reports of children in the U.S. hospitalized with muscle weakness or paralysis mostly in their arms and legs. This illness is now being called acute flaccid myelitis. These children are being tested for poliovirus, West Nile virus, and enteroviruses. Investigations into these and other possible infectious and non-infectious causes are ongoing. See Investigation of Acute Flaccid Myelitis in U.S. Children, 2014.





> Non-Polio Enterovirus
> 
> Non-polio enteroviruses are very common and can infect anyone. Most people who get infected with these viruses do not get sick or they only have mild illness, like the common cold. But some people can have serious complications, especially infants and people with weakened immune systems…



Bill


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## pedro47 (Jan 27, 2015)

MULTIZ321 said:


> A Polar Bear Might Keep the Measles Away, But Shots Work Better - by Nancy Shute/ Shots: Health News from NPR/ npr.org
> 
> "In the bestselling Ivy and Bean books, 7-year-old Bean puts a lot of energy into avoiding chores and reading. So when her friend Ivy brings up measles shots, Bean is ready with alternatives:
> 
> ...



Loved your drawing !


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jan 27, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Im not sure what you mean as there really isn't much substance to your doltish statement, but I guess now would be considered soon.
> 
> Enthrovirus is now for the most part called acute flaccid myelitis. Children with a weak immune systems occasionally become kind of paralyzed with this condition. The mmr vaccine can weaken an infant or child's immune system.
> 
> ...



Bill, do you understand what you're writing?  You mix up things and then write them as facts.

Just look at your most recent quote.  You say, "Enterovirus is now for the most part called acute flaccid myelitis."  What?  The health alert you quoted just stated that children with this condition are being tested for enterovirus as well as a lot of other things.  Nowhere does it say or even insinuate enterovirus is now called acute flaccid myelitis.

You then state that the MMR vaccine can weaken a child's immune system.  Again, not close to being true.  In fact the opposite is true.  There's ample scientific evidence that the MMR strengthens the immune system by helping children to develop and produce the necessary antibodies to fight off measles, mumps and rubella.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 27, 2015)

Probably not.  

The cdc quote seems to be calling these paralytic symptoms acute flaccid myelitis which is different than entrovirius unless the enthrovirus is part the paralysis. Does that seem right ? 

http://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/m...s-kids-across-us-it-caused-enterovirus-318168



> “Since September 2014, [the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] CDC and partners have been investigating reports of children across the United States who developed a sudden onset of weakness in one or more arms or legs with MRI scans that showed inflammation of the gray matter — nerve cells — in the spinal cord,” according to the CDC. “This illness is now being referred to as acute flaccid myelitis.”



As far as the mmr vacination I would agree that it is safe for > 99% of the people that take it. The cdc has this info.



> MMR vaccine side-effects
> (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
> What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
> A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
> ...




Bill


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 31, 2015)

Holding Accountable Those Who Sow Doubt About Vaccines - by Keith Kloor/ Collide-a-Scape/ DiscoverMagazine.com

"The Disney Measles Outbreak Spotlights Vaccine-Averse Behavior...


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 31, 2015)

What Sweden Can Teach America About Measles Vaccinations - by Joyce Hackel/ Health & Medicine/ Public Radio International/ pri.org

"The measles outbreak that apparently had its start at Disneyland is leaping borders every day. There are more than 90 cases so far, reaching beyond California to at least six other US states as well as Mexico.

Yes, there's a measles shot, but in recent years, more Americans aren't getting the vaccination that provides coverage for measles, mumps and German measles, also known as rubella. In some areas of California, 13 percent of young children haven't been immunized. Compare that with a place like Sweden, where vaccination coverage is estimated to include all but 5 percent of the entire population.

That's because Swedes show up for all sorts of optional immunizations in droves, providing the sort of "herd immunity" that Americans can only envy. 

Elizabeth Bruenig, a staff writer at The New Republic, says Swedes tend to approach vaccination campaigns very differently than Americans do..."





Ten-month old Lauren Durbin receives an injection for measles, mumps and rubella. 
Credit:Rebecca Naden/Reuters


Richard


----------



## boyblue (Feb 1, 2015)

I can't ever remember posting on a thread without reading every post but I just happened upon this thread this morning and without reading a single post I'm gonna share my opinion.

My Grandmother (and I'm sure others  used to say "education ain sense"

Even if you agree with the anti-vaccination folks that there is a correlation between vaccination and epilepsy (and other bad things - including death) the alternative is so dire I don't get why there is even a conversation.


----------



## easyrider (Feb 2, 2015)

boyblue said:


> I can't ever remember posting on a thread without reading every post but I just happened upon this thread this morning and without reading a single post I'm gonna share my opinion.
> 
> My Grandmother (and I'm sure others  used to say "education ain sense"
> 
> Even if you agree with the anti-vaccination folks that there is a correlation between vaccination and epilepsy (and other bad things - including death) the alternative is so dire I don't get why there is even a conversation.



It could be that the CDC manipulated data to approve certain vaccinations and the other scientific studies that suggests some vaccines are harmful.

Here is a recent study that suggests that the flu vaccine increasinse the odds of getting sick.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1804162/canadian-study-finds-flu-shot-could-increase-risk-of-getting-sick/

Then you have a CDC scientist claiming the mmr vacine was fast tracked to approval using ommited data. 



> My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where I have worked since 1998. I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.



Mercury and lead in small amounts is harmful to human health. Why are these chemicals allowed to be used as ingredients in vaccines ? 

The other question that is being asked is "If vaccines really work why are  97% of children vaccinated for infectious disease actually catching the infectious disease they were vaccinated for.

Bill


----------



## DeniseM (Feb 2, 2015)

Bill - Your post is pure baloney - you need to check your facts.

Especially this one: * "The other question that is being asked is "If vaccines really work why are 97% of children vaccinated for infectious disease actually catching the infectious disease they were vaccinated for."*

Do you actually BELIEVE that *97%* of children in the US catch measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and whooping cough?  *

That is a preposterous statement.*

This CNN article completely disputes the claims you made regarding William Thompson and the CDC:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/27/health/irpt-cdc-autism-vaccine-study/

-William Thompson said that he had a private discussion with someone about the CDC study and* did not give permission for his thoughts to be made public/published.
*
-William Thompson's claims had nothing to do with the methods/results of the CDC's study.  He claimed that the study wasn't valid, because it didn't include children without birth certificates - which according to the CDC is not true:



> In a statement to CNN on Monday, the CDC said its *study presented results for two sets of children*: all children initially recruited for the study, and a subset of children for whom a Georgia birth certificate was available.
> 
> "Access to the information on the birth certificates allowed researchers to assess more complete information on race, as well as other important characteristics," the CDC statement said.



-The later "study" based on William Thompson's claims, has been removed from publication, because of doubts about the "validity of its conclusions."   The study wasn't even published in the US - it was published (and subsequently removed) by a website in Shanghai, China - which tells you that no reputable journal in the US would publish it.



> The new study was funded by the Focus Autism Foundation, which says it is dedicated to exposing the causes of autism, "focusing on the role of vaccinations."
> 
> The study has since been removed from the public domain pending further investigation, according to Translational Neurodegeneration.
> 
> In an online statement, the scientific journal said the paper had been removed "because of serious concerns about the validity of its conclusions."


----------



## easyrider (Feb 2, 2015)

These are not my arguments against vaccinations. These are just a few of the arguments against vaccinations from those that oppose or question vaccinations.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/an-inside-look-at-h1n1-vaccine-production/

With stories like this it should make a person ask questions such as "what is in the vaccine".

The 97% of children that have been vaccinated dealio is some what relevant and maybe your misunderstanding my post. Here is an explanation. Most children in the USA have been vaccinated. These vaccinated children account for 97% of the children who actually get infected with a condition that they are vaccinated for.

Another interesting thing is that in my classes about lead regulations it is only a microscopic amount of lead that can cause irreversible damage to a persons health.



> Approximately 85 samples of injectable biological products regulated by the Center for Drugs and Biologics of the United States Food and Drug Administration were surveyed for the presence of 11 elements, namely aluminum, arsenic, barium, cadmium, chromium, lead, mercury, selenium, thallium and zinc, by flame and flameless methods of atomic absorption spectrometry and flame emission spectrometry. The range of products tested included whole blood, red cells, plasma, normal serum albumin, antihemophilic factor, and other products derived from blood; allergenic extracts including honey bee venom and house dust allergenic extracts; vaccines such as measles virus vaccine and typhoid vaccine; and tetanus toxoid. The metal concentrations found in the majority of these products were low or undetectable. The metal levels varied from manufacturer to manufacturer, product and lot-to-lot of the same manufacturer's products. House dust allergenic extracts had the highest concentrations of arsenic (2.4 ppm), cadmium (0.28 ppm), chromium (0.6 ppm) and lead (1.5 ppm) found in the study. A high zinc concentration (24 ppm) in an immune serum globulin was attributed to the zinc-containing rubber stopper in contact with the product. A range of 0.36-3.30 ppm aluminum was found for seven 25% normal serum albumin samples from seven manufacturers. Values of 8.2, 17 and 18 ppm aluminum were found in one manufacturer's 25% normal serum albumin.



How about some mercury ? This is a new article.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/cd...showing-mercury-in-vaccines-linked-to-autism/



> CDC Caught Hiding Data Showing Mercury in Vaccines Linked to Autism



Keeping an open mind I find that my long list of vaccinations of which I feel has helped me may affect another person adversely. 

Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 2, 2015)

Bill - if you search the internet, you can EASILY find arguments about anything and everything, and a counter-argument.  

Posting stuff from fringe websites on TUG, as if it's a proven fact, is just trolling.


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## easyrider (Feb 2, 2015)

The list of ingredients used to manufacture vaccines do include lead and  Thimerosal (mercury preservatives) which are listed as hazardous to human health. 

Lead and mercury are toxins that are especially dangerous to children.

Jeez Denise, I did post a link to support H1N1 vaccinations on the above post. Also, I would wonder why you feel that information that is objectionable to you isn't still interesting to others ? I find it very interesting that people do not question authority and blindly accept information as correct especially given that authorities have been wrong so many times in the past.

The above quote on the above post is taken from the fringe group called the National Institute of Health. 



Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 2, 2015)

Bill - I don't find it "interesting," because most of your sources are the equivalent of quoting the National Enquirer, and you post these speculations from tin hat websites, as if they were "facts."

You also twist the info. to fit your agenda - Like saying this:

*"If vaccines really work why are 97% of children vaccinated for infectious disease actually catching the infectious disease they were vaccinated for."*

My favorite is when you posted saying that NASA *found* a penny on Mars!  When really, they TOOK a penny to Mars!  

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200451&highlight=penny+mars


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## easyrider (Feb 2, 2015)

I wouldnt place CNN in the same categories as the National Enquirer. When I saw the penny on mars picture I thought it was interesting enough to post it on tug.

I did explain the 97% dealio so that a child could understand. Im not sure why you disagree with it. 

Did you ever consider that just because you don't find something interesting that others do ? 

And what citation have you provided showing lead, mercury or radiation is not harmful to human health ? Your opinion is all I have really seen which isn't the same as a document from National Institute of Health.

Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 2, 2015)

Your post about NASA finding the penny on Mars was clearly intended to mislead:  *"Mars rover rare find ???"* I don't understand why you felt compelled to twist the facts?

This statement:


> 1) "If vaccines really work why are 97% of children vaccinated for infectious disease actually catching the infectious disease they were vaccinated for."


AND this statement:


> 2) Most children in the USA have been vaccinated. These vaccinated children account for 97% of the children who actually get infected with a condition that they are vaccinated for.


Have completely DIFFERENT meanings.

1.  If 100 children get vaccinated, 97 of them will get the disease they were vaccinated for, and 3 will not.

2.  If 100 children come down with a disease, 97 of them were previously vaccinated, and 3 were not.

Statement #1 is clearly not true.

Statement #2 means nothing - because you have to know how many children DIDN'T get sick, to know whether its relevant or not. 

You also did not document where you got the info.


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## DeniseM (Feb 2, 2015)

Here is a similar statement:

97% of the children who required medical treatment after an auto accident, were in car seats.

Therefore - it must be really dangerous to put your child in a car seat.


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## easyrider (Feb 2, 2015)

I like your car seat analogy. Is this you actually agreeing with me ? 

It may have been more amusing to me than to others when the penny picture showed up from Mars and indeed I was goofing around with that post for my own amusement. I can say the same about the nuclear blast in India post or the fireball posts. 

With the vaccine dealio it is a different story. Im just letting people know why some people object to unbridled vaccinations. Even the CDC says that for some people vaccines will have a negative effect to their health. 

That being said, I can understand why some people are reluctant to vaccinate their children.

Bill


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## easyrider (Feb 3, 2015)

Why is measles making a comeback and who really are the un-vaccinated ? 

Could it be that immigrants that were taken in from central America were not properly vaccinated and have spread measles as well as other infectious diseases ? 

Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 3, 2015)

The majority of unvaccinated children are not vaccinated by their own parent's  choice.  We know this, because to go to school in the US, you must either submit immunization records to the school BEFORE your child enrolls, or the parent must sign a waiver stating that they are opposed to vaccinations.

Children may come to the US without vaccinations, but they must get them before they start school, and it's not immigrants who are refusing immunizations.


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## Jestjoan (Feb 3, 2015)

*Vaccine Compensation Table*

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html


----------



## easyrider (Feb 3, 2015)

I heard something on the radio about the 2014 measles out break starting at Disney Land and spreading from there. It seemed the out break was caused by foreign immigrant or something of that nature.

Could these be the non vaccinated children from Central America enjoying an outing and spreading infectious disease ? In the schools, where everyone has proof of vaccinations, why are kids catching measles if they have been vaccinated ?

Other places where non vaccinated children mix with vaccinated children might be churches, playgrounds or just about anywhere.

So the vaccine doesn't appear to protect everyone that received it.

Bill


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## Jestjoan (Feb 3, 2015)

*Vaccine claims/compensation from one law firm*

http://www.mctlawyers.com/vaccine-injury/cases


----------



## DeniseM (Feb 3, 2015)

easyrider said:


> I heard something on the radio about the 2014 measles out break starting at Disney Land and spreading from there. It seemed the out break was caused by foreign immigrant or something of that nature.  Could these be the non vaccinated children from Central America enjoying an outing and spreading infectious disease ?



That's what they think, but they don't actually know who started it.



> In the schools, where everyone has proof of vaccinations, why are kids catching measles if they have been vaccinated ?



Did you read my post above?  There are children in schools who don't have vaccines because their parents *signed a waiver* excluding their children from vaccinations, because of the parent's beliefs.  So the unvaccinated children are catching the measles, and other preventable diseases, taking it to school, and giving it to other unvaccinated children in school.



> Other places where non vaccinated children mix with vaccinated children might be churches, playgrounds or just about anywhere.



This is possible with young children who haven't attended school or preschool yet (preschool and child care centers also require immunizations) or babies that are too young for the immunization, or home schooled children, who have not been immunized, or school aged children whose parents signed a waiver.  



> So the vaccine doesn't appear to protect everyone that received it.



That's not how it works:  the vast majority of the time, unvaccinated children are giving diseases to other unvaccinated children.  Not to children who have been vaccinated.  

Or, they are giving it to children who are too young to be vaccinated.

*I managed our school district's Teen Parent Program and 4 child care centers for more than 20 years.  This is not just speculation on my part - this is my personal experience with un-vaccinated children, and children too young to be vaccinated.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 3, 2015)

If vaccinated people were able to catch Measles, don't you think it would be far more wide spread than it is now? Obviously the vaccine is very effective. No vaccine is 100%. It also requires two shots, one between 12 ad 15 months and another at 4-6 years of age. Perhaps some who have caught the vaccine are those that have only had the initial shot.

I would find it doubtful that there is any school where ALL children have been vaccinated.


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## billymach4 (Feb 3, 2015)

Jestjoan said:


> http://www.mctlawyers.com/vaccine-injury/cases



Looks like most of those settlements are for Guillain-Barre Syndrome.


----------



## DeniseM (Feb 3, 2015)

Per the CDC, about 95% of people are immune after 1 measles immunization, and 97% are immune after two.  Even the 3% who don't develop full immunity, have some immunity, which means they will not get as ill if they do get the measles.

Some people think of measles as a mild childhood illness, but that's not true - from the CDC's website:


> In the decade before the measles vaccination program began, an estimated 3–4 million persons in the United States were infected each year, of whom *400–500 died*, *48,000 were hospitalized*, and another *1,000 developed chronic disability from measles encephalitis*. Widespread use of measles vaccine has led to a greater than 99% reduction in measles cases in the United States compared with the pre-vaccine era.



25% of the people who got the measles from the Disneyland outbreak were hospitalized.


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## billymach4 (Feb 3, 2015)

The human mind is frail with opinions and misinformation. Basically the anti vax crowd drank the kool aid! Some unemployed Marriott Timeshare salesman is spreading the lies! lol


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## billymach4 (Feb 3, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Per the CDC, about 95% of people are immune after 1 measles immunization, and 97% are immune after two.  Even the 3% who don't develop full immunity, have some immunity, which means they will not get as ill if they do get the measles.
> 
> Some people think of measles as a mild childhood illness, but that's not true - from the CDC's website:



My wife used to work for one of the local hospital systems. As a healthcare worker she was required to be tested for the Measles, and her immunity to the Measles. She would always come up with no immunity to the Measles. In other words according to Employee Health she was never immunized for the Measles. She would comply an get the vaccine anyway. In this current situation it is possible that my wife may come down with the measles if she is exposed. 

Who might she get that exposure from? Some child that was not properly immunized!

.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 3, 2015)

billymach4 said:


> The human mind is frail with opinions and misinformation. Basically the anti vax crowd drank the kool aid! Some unemployed Marriott Timeshare salesman is spreading the lies! lol



I think the problem is that the current anti-vax crowd is a generation that did not live through many of the horrible deceases that these vaccines helped to eradicate. So they don't think it can effect them. They think any potential issues with the vaccine are far worse than what the actual disease could cause. the problem is that they have not seen first hand the potential devastation from the diseases. 

People who lived through many of these diseases know that the side effects of the disease are far far less than what these diseases can cause.

Should they perhaps be doing more to not have to use lead and mercury in vaccines? Perhaps. But right now it is the best thing we have and as the Measles outbreaks is proving, what we have now in vaccines is better than the alternative.

Perhaps the anti-vax crowd needs to take in to consideration the risk they are putting on their kids while they are safely protected with the very vaccines they refuse to give their children.


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## easyrider (Feb 3, 2015)

So is there any truth to reports that the wave of Central American immigrant children let into the USA is the cause of the measles mess and entrovirus ? Today, its been said by many in congress that it is immigrants and not the antivaxers that are the problem. The timeline seems right.

My thought is that letting people into the country to assimilate with the population wasn't such a good idea. Maybe a bit of quarantine and some vaccination should have been provided for these kids to mix with others.

Bill


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## billymach4 (Feb 3, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the problem is that the current anti-vax crowd is a generation that did not live through many of the horrible deceases that these vaccines helped to eradicate. So they don't think it can effect them. They think any potential issues with the vaccine are far worse than what the actual disease could cause. the problem is that they have not seen first hand the potential devastation from the diseases.
> 
> People who lived through many of these diseases know that the side effects of the disease are far far less than what these diseases can cause.
> 
> ...



Well written analysis. There is also so much distrust of the gov't and the medical community at large. That is unfortunate. 

I just heard a soundbite on the news from one of these antivax people and this is what I heard.  " I don't trust the medical system because they are a for profit business". This is such a silly excuse. Does this person think that hospitals, pharmacy's, and Doctors should work for little or no profit? Yes there are inflationary issues with health care it the costs have increased over the years (way too much). But this is no reason to refuse to vaccinate your children.


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## DeniseM (Feb 3, 2015)

easyrider said:


> So is there any truth to reports that the wave of Central American immigrant children let into the USA is the cause of the measles mess and entrovirus ? Today, its been said by many in congress that it is immigrants and not the antivaxers that are the problem. The timeline seems right.



California has what amounts to an open border with Mexico - so this is nothing new - it's been going on forever.  However, in the past, almost everyone IN the US was immunized - so it wasn't a problem when un-vaccinated people entered the US.

Who knows who brought it to Disneyland, but the majority of people who CAUGHT it at Disneyland, were not immunized.  It seems ludicrous to me to point the finger at someone else who isn't immunized, if you aren't immunized yourself.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 3, 2015)

easyrider said:


> So is there any truth to reports that the wave of Central American immigrant children let into the USA is the cause of the measles mess and entrovirus ? Today, its been said by many in congress that it is immigrants and not the antivaxers that are the problem. The timeline seems right.
> 
> My thought is that letting people into the country to assimilate with the population wasn't such a good idea. Maybe a bit of quarantine and some vaccination should have been provided for these kids to mix with others.
> 
> Bill



I immigrated in to this country. When doing so I had to undergo a thorough medical check and have my vaccinations up to date. So coming to the USA as an un-vaccinated individual was not an option. Perhaps they allow for medical or religious waivers, I don't know as not having the vaccinations was not considered an option for myself. I was already current accept tetanus-diphtheria. I don't know what protocols the children showing up at the southern boarder go through.

That said, even if it was started by immigrant children, it is unlikely that it continues to spread by them. It is spread because people are refusing to vaccinate their children.


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## easyrider (Feb 3, 2015)

So not immunized is not the same as not vaccinated or is not immunized like Billy's wife where the vaccine doesn't take ?

I guess Im pointing fingers somewhat at the Central American immigrant kid dealio as a cause because of the time correlation and geographical correlation.


Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 3, 2015)

Immunized and vaccinated mean exactly the same thing.

Simplified:  When you get an immunization/vaccination, you are given a "dead" version of the disease, so your body thinks you've been exposed, and makes antibodies to fight off the disease.  For some reason, a small number of people do not have the same response to the immunization - they don't make antibodies, or not enough to be completely immune.


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## SMHarman (Feb 3, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Immunized and vaccinated mean exactly the same thing.
> 
> Simplified:  When you get an immunization/vaccination, you are given a "dead" version of the disease, so your body thinks you've been exposed, and makes antibodies to fight off the disease.  For some reason, a small number of people do not have the same response to the immunization - they don't make antibodies, or not enough to be completely immune.


So what is the term for getting the shot and it not taking?

Vaccinated but not immunized. 

We just got my DD bloodwork back and she is 3/3 not immunized on this basis. 

There is only historic extrapolated math on efficacy of vaccines. As they change the efficacy has changed. Seems for the worse.


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## easyrider (Feb 4, 2015)

*No one has died from the measles in the last 10 years*

No one has died from the measles in the last 10 years but interestingly enough 108 people have died from the measles vaccine in the last 10 years. 

http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/zero-...but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/


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## jackio (Feb 4, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> So what is the term for getting the shot and it not taking?
> 
> Vaccinated but not immunized.
> 
> ...



It's called failure to sero-convert.  The thought is that even if the titers are not positive in a blood test, your body will still be able to fight the virus to some degree due to the vaccine(s).


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## DeniseM (Feb 4, 2015)

easyrider said:


> No one has died from the measles in the last 10 years but interestingly enough 108 people have died from the measles vaccine in the last 10 years.



*Of course* people have died from the measles in the last 10 years - just not in the US, where most kids are IMMUNIZED!

From the CDC:



> Measles is one of the *leading causes of death among young children* even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
> 
> *In 2013, there were 145,700 measles deaths globally*



This is my last response to you, because either you don't understand this at all, or you are just trolling...


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## billymach4 (Feb 4, 2015)

Bill, Bill, Bill ......

My friend you are out of this world.

This article is from the most respected news brand!

http://time.com/3696139/measles-outbreak-2015-cdc-says-vaccinate/

Every four minutes, somewhere in the world, a child dies from measles and its complications. That’s 400 children each day. For many more, an infection from measles will give them permanent hearing loss or brain damage.


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## Ken555 (Feb 4, 2015)

easyrider said:


> No one has died from the measles in the last 10 years but interestingly enough 108 people have died from the measles vaccine in the last 10 years.
> 
> 
> 
> http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/zero-...but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/




This is a prime example of an inherent inability to adequately research independently before reaching a conclusion, and a desire to twist results to fit your world view. I suspect it's inherent in all your decision making, based on your previous posts.


Sent from my iPad


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## easyrider (Feb 4, 2015)

Good points Billy and Denise. Looking at this thing globally really is an interesting out of the box suggestion that really hasn't been looked at by many of the on the fence anti vax supporters. Those numbers are staggering and quite convincing.

My only real support for this group has been the freedom of choice we all have as Americans.

Ken, your last comment was no help but thanks for the derisive response anyway.  

Bill


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## DeniseM (Feb 5, 2015)

Jon Stewart on the measles (humor) - http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_27463840?cid=dlvr.it


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## Ken555 (Feb 5, 2015)

Should You Vaccinate Your Child?
A handy flowchart

https://medium.com/the-nib/should-you-vaccinate-your-child-7810fd781903




Sent from my iPad


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## easyrider (Feb 5, 2015)

That is some funny stuff you guys. :hysterical:

I wonder whose definition of "off the chain" cnn was using ? 

Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 5, 2015)

easyrider said:


> My only real support for this group has been the *freedom of choice we all have as Americans.*
> Bill



  This thought process is what's troubling. Yes, we have freedoms, but our freedom of speech does not allow for us to yell "fire" in a theatre , "hijack" at an airport or use vulgar language when/where we want to. 

 So you may have the freedom to say or write anything you wish, but if it's slanderous, or libelous, you have injured another's good reputation and the law recognizes this and you will be held responsible for your actions.


  Therein lies the rub.

  Freedom is often defined by its limits.  Otherwise, we'd have total anarchy.
  That's why we have traffic lights, zoning laws, automobile annual inspections, legal age drinking and legal age for marriage and so on.

There are two kinds of freedom and rights; one is to have the right to do something and one that prevents that person's rights from harming me. In exercising freedom, one may do whatever one wishes, as long as those actions do not interfere with the legal rights of another.

  Taking off my shoes and having my bags scanned is an invasion of my personal rights which I am willing to give up for the greater good and freedoms.

 A patient has the right to confidentiality unless they have spread an STD to others. Those others will be notified by the DPH. 


  Smoking in a restaurant, public area, just about anywhere is no longer allowed as second hand smoke is harmful. This is where one's "rights" endangered others and a whole paradigm shift happened.



  I agree with the growing cries for a law proposing that anyone not wishing to immunize their child may do so, however, they may not send them to the public schools which are funded by public monies. Home school them or establish schools for non-vaxxers. Doubtful if that school would be in business for long.

  Oddly enough, those non-vaxxers hiding behind "personal choice" were able up grow into adults. I hope they afford that right to others. 

  I hope we continue to have a civil exchange on this matter as it affects us all.

  Being a child of the 50s & 60s, I (we) lived with the fear of spreading polio to each other, but when Jonas Salk's vaccine became available, it was our parents' responsibility to ensure our safety and the safety of our community and country. They did so.

  Denise's seatbelt analogy sums it up perfectly for me.

=

-


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## easyrider (Feb 5, 2015)

You guys are making it sound like there is a measles epidemic in the USA. There are what , under 200 people that have caught measles so far out of the 316 or so million people living here. 

It does seem like hype when you look at the numbers in this so called outbreak which seems more like an explainable immigration problem than a health disaster.

While the global infection numbers are eye opening the numbers are minuscule in the USA. I do agree that it is probably best to be vaccinated but even so, I had measles as a child and it wasn't any worse than the chicken pox, the scarlet fever or the whooping cough the mumps or even the flu as I remember it.

Once everyone is vaccinated for measles then what. Will it be the hpv vaccine for all just because a few thousand people acquire genital warts or cancer ? 

I bet you thought I was going to say something like you cant have my guns. 

Bottom line is this issue will have to be decided in real court as in the Supreme Court as the politicians will never agree to force the public into a mandatory measles vaccination program for every single person. I doubt the courts can do much either.

Bill


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## dioxide45 (Feb 5, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> I agree with the growing cries for a law proposing that anyone not wishing to immunize their child may do so, however, they may not send them to the public schools which are funded by public monies. Home school them or establish schools for non-vaxxers. Doubtful if that school would be in business for long.



I think if they were segregated to schools for non-vaxxers, the outbreak would be even worse. Imaging one student taking measles in to a school where no kids are vaccinated. The result would not be good. They take it to a school where herd immunity has the level of immunity at 95% and the chance of it spreading beyond a couple kids is low.

If people want the choice to chose, they should also be required to pay for their choices. How often is the state and everyone else stepping in to cover medical costs when they catch a disease they could have been vaccinated for?


----------



## dioxide45 (Feb 5, 2015)

easyrider said:


> I had measles as a child and it wasn't any worse than the chicken pox, the scarlet fever or the whooping cough the mumps or even the flu as I remember it.



While your complications were low, that isn't the case for everyone. Measels can lead to a lifetime of problems for some such as deafness and blindness. The same thing for polio. Also, what is the additional cost to the healthcare system?

I would agree that obtaining immunity naturally is perhaps the most healthy path, it may not be the best option.


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 6, 2015)

Naysaers - 



Richard


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## Jestjoan (Feb 6, 2015)

*From my Facebook newsfeed today Robert F. Kennedy Jr.*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Af0ar7gE4&list=PLqQQFOVUZBLiqJGoOaIH3Y2fkH_wzJoZY&index=1

Yes, it is old and things have changed..........


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## geekette (Feb 6, 2015)

easyrider said:


> You guys are making it sound like there is a measles epidemic in the USA. There are what , under 200 people that have caught measles so far out of the 316 or so million people living here.


Check back in a month.

The idea of "special schools" for the unvaxxed - no, I don't want my tax dollars funding anything like that to condone the actions of those refusing to take part in public health issues.

Further, how are you going to keep these kids out of everywhere else, as measles is super contagious.  Do they never get to go to the playground, mall, ball park, movies, etc., or do you propose "separate but equal" facilities for those venues also?  and where does it stop, supporting those refusing to vax?  

Today it's measles, who knows what other erradicated crap will be allowed to creep back in by the antivax crowd.  I feel sorry for the kids of these people as they are caught in a "who do you trust" situation that will play out over their lifetimes.  "Mom said the vaccine would be bad for me so I trusted her, but then I got super sick...  "   and maybe as adults they will not hesitate to vaccinate their own children.


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## PigsDad (Feb 6, 2015)

Jestjoan said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Af0ar7gE4&list=PLqQQFOVUZBLiqJGoOaIH3Y2fkH_wzJoZY&index=1


Yeah, taking the word of some politician over confirmed, peer-reviewed scientific studies is always a good idea.   This video has more conspiracy theories than The X Files.

Replace "some celebrity" with "some politician" in the following flowchart:
https://medium.com/the-nib/should-you-vaccinate-your-child-7810fd781903


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 6, 2015)

geekette said:


> Check back in a month.
> 
> The idea of "special schools" for the unvaxxed - no, I don't want my tax dollars funding anything like that to condone the actions of those refusing to take part in public health issues.
> 
> ...




 I don't want my tax dollars funding that either. That was not suggested.  More of a private/charter school setting.
 Yes, interaction takes with the general population takes place outside of school, I get that, too.

 The kids and adults who haven't been vaccinated walk amongst us harboring and transmitting all sorts of communicable diseases. affecting the most vulnerable; infants, immunocompromised, the frail, the elderly,.


 How and where to educate them is the dilemma as education is a government mandate. 

 Just thought I'd report what was being looked at as a solution, however, I don't think there is one except for the anti - vaxxers to commit to the greater good. ETA: They have  benefited from herd immunity, but herd immunity for measles and whooping cough is being dangerously compromised because of the anti-vaxxers misguided beliefs.

-

  -


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## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2015)

The story of the U.S. measles outbreak, as the rest of the world might see it

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...b4a134-ad7a-11e4-ad71-7b9eba0f87d6_story.html



> Experts say that the United States’ broken institutions and collective cultural allergy to scientific or technical expertise are to blame for both of these macro issues, as well as the recent public health scares.
> 
> “Oh, sure, they’re more than happy to take our money, but time and again Americans have shown their unwillingness to shape up and join modern civilization,” said one diplomat, who requested anonymity because he has promised his son a trip to measles-ravaged Disneyland. “It’s really a shame, but you can’t vaccinate against stupid.”




Sent from my iPad


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## geekette (Feb 6, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Today, its been said by many in congress that it is immigrants and not the antivaxers that are the problem.



I would suggest not using Congress as a source of valid medical information.


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## sue1947 (Feb 6, 2015)

“It’s really a shame, but you can’t vaccinate against stupid.”

This pretty much says it all.  It's been fashionable to be ignorant about a lot of things for too long in our society.   Science, math or history all take a backseat to what some fake celebrity is wearing/saying/doing.  

All those diseases that decimated the Native American population of this country in the 1800's (smallpox, measles etc) and polio in the 1900's can make a comeback because of the ignorance and stupidity of these people.  

And yes, we do have a measles epidemic.   The ease of spreading the disease is shown by how far it has spread in just 2 months.  With a 90% rate of those exposed getting the disease, and with a 3 week delay in symptoms, this has just started.  

Sue


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 6, 2015)

Some  California schools are sending unvaccinated students home.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/school-officials-working-to-stem-spread-of-measles-1421955621  January 22nd WSJ.


When I attended all colleges, I had to show proof of immunizations or titers.



BTW, I feel the same about all unvaccinated healthcare workers, those involved with direct or indirect patient care  (not remote care) in ANY institution. 



-




-


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 7, 2015)

Mississippi Hasn't Had Measles in Over Two Decades - by Tony Yang/ Vaccines/ NewRepublic.com

"As of January 30, 102 people in 14 states were reported to have measles, and most of these cases are tied to the outbreak that began at Disneyland in December. Public health officials are citing an increase in non-medical exemptions to vaccination as a key factor in these outbreaks.

Last year saw a record number of measles cases—644 cases and 23 outbreaks—the highest since the measles was considered eliminated in the US in 2000.

Although U.S. vaccination rates are generally high, ranging from 85 percent to 93 percent, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and state health officials across the country have expressed concern about increases in sporadic outbreaks of communicable diseases such as measles and pertussis (whooping cough).

To enroll in school in all 50 states, a child needs to be properly vaccinated, with the exception of students who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. Where do exemptions for non-medical reasons fit in?..."

Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 7, 2015)

The Puritans Were America's First Anti-Vaxxers - by Peter Manseau/ Medicine/ NewRepublic.com

"A plague is a busy time for a man of the cloth.

Cotton Mather was the most prominent clergyman in colonial Boston, the last in a line of preachers who had provided spiritual solace to the city from the beginning. Yet when he looked down from his pulpit in the fall of 1702 he saw his congregation dwindling by the day.

With funerals “daily celebrated and multiplied,” as he noted in his journal, the usual Puritan terrors of devils and Indians were replaced in public consciousness with fears of the “fevers and fluxes” that spread by the sad magic of human touch and breath..."







Richard


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## easyrider (Feb 7, 2015)

Its interesting to me anyway, that Americans are so afraid of germs now days. When I was a kid, if some kid caught something like chicken pox, everyones mom would decide if this was a good time for them for their kids to maybe get exposed. It was easier if all the kids went though it at once. My grade school was closed for a week because almost every one was sick.

Now the media reports everything about anything infectious to the point that the public is actually afraid of germs. They have created a germ phobia to the extent that people are willing to trade their freedom for the illusion of safety, imo. The real way to stay healthy in adulthood is to build immunity during childhood. 

Were not talking about ebola here, its the measles which is about like having the flu with a rash. 

This anti vax movement seems to coincide with the central American child immigration movement where these kids were granted amnesty and allowed to move into the USA without being properly quarantined or vaccinated. I doubt that most of these kids even had a real doctor take a look at them. The blame lies here in this outbreak with this amnesty program and not with some family that for reasons of their own decides to not vaccinate their kid, imo.

Bill


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## Ken555 (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Its interesting to me anyway, that Americans are so afraid of germs now days. When I was a kid, if some kid caught something like chicken pox, everyones mom would decide if this was a good time for them for their kids to maybe get exposed. It was easier if all the kids went though it at once. My grade school was closed for a week because almost every one was sick.



Science has made some progress in the time since you were a kid. Should we toss all of that progress?



> Now the media reports everything about anything infectious to the point that the public is actually afraid of germs. They have created a germ phobia to the extent that people are willing to trade their freedom for the illusion of safety, imo. The real way to stay healthy in adulthood is to build immunity during childhood.



So it's the media which is the cause of this problem? Not the CDC, your doctor, the vast majority of doctors all over the world, scientists, NIH, or just about all scientific institutions that exists? 



> Were not talking about ebola here, its the measles which is about like having the flu with a rash.



Wrong. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles



> Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from mild complications such as diarrhea to serious complications such as pneumonia (either direct viral pneumonia or secondary bacterial pneumonia),[10] otitis media,[11] acute brain inflammation[12] (and very rarely SSPE—subacute sclerosing panencephalitis),[13] and corneal ulceration (leading to corneal scarring).[14] Complications are usually more severe in adults who catch the virus.[15] The death rate in the 1920s was around 30% for measles pneumonia.[16]
> 
> Between 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was three measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.[17] In underdeveloped nations with high rates of malnutrition and poor healthcare, fatality rates have been as high as 28%.[17] In immunocompromised persons (e.g., people with AIDS) the fatality rate is approximately 30%.[18] Risk factors for severe measles and its complications include: malnutrition,[19][20] underlying immunodeficiency,[19] pregnancy,[19][21] and vitamin A deficiency.[19][22]



http://www.cdc.gov/measles/



> Measles is a highly contagious respiratory disease caused by a virus. It spreads through the air through coughing and sneezing. Measles starts with a fever, runny nose, cough, red eyes, and sore throat, and is followed by a rash that spreads all over the body. About three out of 10 people who get measles will develop one or more complications including pneumonia, ear infections, or diarrhea. Complications are more common in adults and young children.



Not just flu and a rash.



> This anti vax movement seems to coincide with the central American child immigration movement where these kids were granted amnesty and allowed to move into the USA without being properly quarantined or vaccinated. I doubt that most of these kids even had a real doctor take a look at them. The blame lies here in this outbreak with this amnesty program and not with some family that for reasons of their own decides to not vaccinate their kid, imo.



Absurd. Though it's good to know you get your medical info from politicians, many of whom are so smart they know more about medicine and science than doctors and scientists. This is a thinly veiled attempt to discredit immigration policy, is a political reference, and has no place on TUG.

http://m.ibtimes.com/measles-outbre...ot-linked-outbreak-gop-congressman-mo-1805172



> Measles Outbreak 2015: Illegal Immigrants Not Linked To Outbreak, But GOP Congressman Mo Brooks Thinks It's Possible



http://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/false-narrative-on-measles-outbreak/



> Rep. Mo Brooks and potential presidential hopeful Ben Carson both suggested a connection between illegal immigration and the spread of diseases such as measles in the United States. Though it is often difficult to pinpoint precise origins of disease outbreaks, there is no evidence supporting a link between the recent outbreaks and illegal immigration.



It's obvious that you are still confused with fact and fiction, who to believe and where to get your info. This is a fundamental problem that we have as a society since if we can't agree on the facts then it's very difficult to agree on a solution. In any case, you really need to expand your sources of information and read contrary points of view in order to form your own opinion. Question every source and not just the "media".


Sent from my iPad


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## dioxide45 (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Its interesting to me anyway, that Americans are so afraid of germs now days. When I was a kid, if some kid caught something like chicken pox, everyones mom would decide if this was a good time for them for their kids to maybe get exposed. It was easier if all the kids went though it at once. My grade school was closed for a week because almost every one was sick.
> 
> Now the media reports everything about anything infectious to the point that the public is actually afraid of germs. They have created a germ phobia to the extent that people are willing to trade their freedom for the illusion of safety, imo. The real way to stay healthy in adulthood is to build immunity during childhood.
> 
> ...



The problem is that the anti-vaxxers are not having their children vaccinated because they want them to get natural immunity. They are worried about unproven side effect may be.


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## Clemson Fan (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Were not talking about ebola here



You're right!  It's not Ebola.  In fact, measles is FAR WORSE!!!

This is directly from the WHO

Key facts

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.

Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.

In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.

During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.


Ebola will never even get close to those numbers!  That was my original point in this thread and others.  Ebola is so deadly with a short incubation period that any outbreaks usually burn themselves out fairly quickly and it makes containing any outbreak a lot easier.  Measles, OTOH, is more contagious with a slower incubation period making it a FAR greater public health threat!

BTW, how are those Ebola predictions here in the US you made previously working out?


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## Ken555 (Feb 7, 2015)

Facts, not fiction. Isn't is just amazing that we have a lower vaccination rate than Tanzania?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandso...ccination-rates-tanzania-does-better-than-u-s



> Tanzania gets the most bang for its GDP buck when it comes to measles vaccination. The East African nation is ranked 200th out of 228 countries in terms of gross domestic product per capita. Yet 99 percent of Tanzanians are vaccinated against measles.
> 
> By comparison, 91 percent of Americans have gotten the shot.




Sent from my iPad


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## "Roger" (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> ....This anti vax movement seems to coincide with the central American child immigration movement where these kids were granted amnesty and allowed to move into the USA without being properly quarantined or vaccinated. I doubt that most of these kids even had a real doctor take a look at them. The blame lies here in this outbreak with this amnesty program and not with some family that for reasons of their own decides to not vaccinate their kid, imo.
> 
> Bill


Not even close to true. There have always been anti-vaxers starting with the production of small pox vaccines in the 1800's. The movement got a real boost with an article in a British medical journal claiming the rise in autism is linked to vaccinations (1998). This article has been totally discredited (with suspicion that the lead author was motivated by financial gain from patents that he held and not by science). The autism/vaccination tie did not die, however, in that proponents put forth a new hypothesis as to a possible link found not in the vaccines itself but in thimerisol which is used as a base for vaccines (2007). Scientific studies have discredited that claim. (Autism rates do not decrease in children who have not been exposed to thimerisol.) 

All of these events occurred before any Central American children were granted amnesty. To say more about your claim would get us into one of the forbidden topics on TUG. I will mention, however, that the percentage of children vaccinated in Guatemala is higher than that in Texas


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 7, 2015)

"Roger" said:


> Not even close to true. There have always been anti-vaxers starting with the production of small pox vaccines in the 1800's. The movement got a real boost with an article in a British medical journal claiming the rise in autism is linked to vaccinations (1998). This article has been totally discredited (with suspicion that the lead author was motivated by financial gain from patents that he held and not by science). The autism/vaccination tie did not die, however, in that proponents put forth a new hypothesis as to a possible link found not in the vaccines itself but in thimerisol which is used as a base for vaccines (2007). Scientific studies have discredited that claim. (Autism rates do not decrease in children who have not been exposed to thimerisol.)
> 
> All of these events occurred before any Central American children were granted amnesty. To say more about your claim would get us into one of the forbidden topics on TUG. I will mention, however, that the percentage of children vaccinated in Guatemala is higher than that in Texas



For those interested in learning more about the discredited study:

A Discredited British Study Helped Create Today's Anti-Vaccine Movement - by Berkley Wilson/ Health & Medicine/ TheTakeAway/Public Radio International/ pri.org

"The measles outbreak at Disneyland has reignited the debate over whether parents should be required to vaccinate their kids..."

Richard


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## SMHarman (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Its interesting to me anyway, that Americans are so afraid of germs now days. When I was a kid, if some kid caught something like chicken pox, everyones mom would decide if this was a good time for them for their kids to maybe get exposed. It was easier if all the kids went though it at once. My grade school was closed for a week because almost every one was sick.
> 
> Now the media reports everything about anything infectious to the point that the public is actually afraid of germs. They have created a germ phobia to the extent that people are willing to trade their freedom for the illusion of safety, imo. The real way to stay healthy in adulthood is to build immunity during childhood.
> 
> ...


The book an epedemic Of absence goes into this and the corresponding rise in autoummune disease. It's fascinating. Also how some autoimmune disease is given respite with some real threat for the Body to deal with. A tape worm Or a jelly bite.


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## SMHarman (Feb 7, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Some  California schools are sending unvaccinated students home.
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/school-officials-working-to-stem-spread-of-measles-1421955621  January 22nd WSJ.
> 
> ...


My daughter can show both proof of immunization and titres that show she has no immunity. Go figure.


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## easyrider (Feb 7, 2015)

Certainly I have always seen the good in the measles vaccination and pretty much agree with most of the arguments for it. My problem with mandatory anything is the mandatory part. Once this is mandatory then what other good medical idea becomes mandatory ? This could eventually lead down the road to euthanasia, increased surveillance, id chips and who knows what because it becomes a good idea.

Bill


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## Passepartout (Feb 7, 2015)

Bill, I just cannot disagree more with your stand on this issue. Vaccines are shown to vastly decrease the chance of contracting a communicable disease, and thereby passing same along to an innocent person you come into contact with. There just has been no independent evidence of widespread side effects from administration of vaccines. Administration of vaccines has no domino effect of leading to euthanasia or big brother watching or implanted IDs.

Put your tinfoil hat away. It doesn't help your credibility.

Jim


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## Ken555 (Feb 7, 2015)

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/06/thi...s_getting_destroyed_in_amazon_troll_campaign/



> This Anti-vaxxer children’s book is getting destroyed in Amazon troll campaign
> "Melanie's Marvelous Measles" was written to teach children the "benefits" of having the disease





> In 2012, a proactive Australian anti-vaxxer named Stephanie Messenger self-published a children’s book called “Melanie’s Marvelous Measles.” With the book, Messenger endeavored to “educate children on the benefits of having measles and how you can heal from them naturally and successfully.” The book’s illustrated cover features a girl frolicking in a meadow with her stomach exposed, revealing a number of measles pocks all over her body. The whole thing is truly grotesque — so much so, that Amazon has put a disclaimer on the book’s description, noting that it is “provided by the publisher/author of this title and presents the subjective opinions of the publisher/author, which may not be substantiated.”
> 
> The book is made all the more relevant, now that a massive measles outbreak (due to the steadily growing vaccine “trutherism” movement) has infected more than 100 people in 15 states, including five babies at a Chicago daycare center.
> 
> ...




Sent from my iPad


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 7, 2015)

Ken,
  You made my day !   :rofl::hysterical:

So, the Internet is doing what the Internet does best: trolling the hell out of Messenger’s deeply flawed book through Amazon comments. Here are some of the best:

_*“Don’t overlook the lesser known Dr. Seuss books in this series – ‘Horton hears an air raid siren’, ‘Oh the places you’ll itch’, ‘How the Grinch caught Chlamydia’, ‘And to Think That I Contracted It on Mulberry Street’, ‘Skull Fracture Mayzie’, ‘Hop on your remaining foot’, ‘The 500 days in ICU of Bartholomew Cubbins’, and ‘If I Ran the Mortuary.’” –Nathaniel E. Parkinson II*_ 



-


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## wackymother (Feb 7, 2015)

This is a very moving letter written by the author Roald Dahl in 1988, about the death of his seven-year-old daughter Olivia and the need for vaccinations. Olivia died in 1962, of complications of measles. 

https://roalddahl.com/roald-dahl/timeline/1960s/november-1962


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## SMHarman (Feb 7, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Certainly I have always seen the good in the measles vaccination and pretty much agree with most of the arguments for it. My problem with mandatory anything is the mandatory part. Once this is mandatory then what other good medical idea becomes mandatory ? This could eventually lead down the road to euthanasia, increased surveillance, id chips and who knows what because it becomes a good idea.
> 
> Bill


Well this is the direction vaccinations have gone. 
Mandatory smallpox, mumps measals diphtheria.  Great idea. 
Mandatory flu shot. Give me a break. The vaccine is a guess at which strains may be prevalent next year. Urinating into the wind is more likely to get an accurate shot. Look how off they were in 2014-5. They seemed to create a vaccine that often wiped people out as their bodies created the white cell antibodies for a strain that never arrived. 
Mandatory Vaccines for mutating viruses is that step to far.


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## ace2000 (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm just glad Bill had a chance to come over here to TUG and get straightened out...


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 8, 2015)

Why Measles Continues to Plague Us - by Peter Doherty/ History News Network/ History/ Health/ Time.com

"There is no virtue in ignorance, especially in deliberate ignorance that can compromise the well-being of children..."

"Peter Doherty shared the 1996 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for illuminating the nature of the cellular immunse defense. He is a member of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, Australia. You can find him on Twitter @ProfPCDoherty"

Very informative and well written article.


Richard


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

To change peoples minds maybe they should change the MMR vacine as the UK did. In the UK mercury was removed from vaccines as a preservative. Even though the risk of thimerosal in vacines is about nil it does seem to be one of the biggest objections to the mmr vaccine by those that oppose it.

Bill


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## Clemson Fan (Feb 8, 2015)

easyrider said:


> To change peoples minds maybe they should change the MMR vacine as the UK did. In the UK mercury was removed from vaccines as a preservative. Even though the risk of thimerosal in vacines is about nil it does seem to be one of the biggest objections to the mmr vaccine by those that oppose it.
> 
> Bill



Where are you getting your information Bill?

Thimerosol was removed from all childhood vaccines in the US in 2001 (14 years ago)!  There is NO thimerosol or Mercury in the MMR vaccine used in the US!

The only vaccine that still has trace amounts of thimerosol in the inactivated flu vaccine.  The attenuated nasal spray flu vaccine does not have thimerosol.


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2015)

He gets his info. from the anti-vaxxer websites - if you google his quotes, it will direct you there.  The intentional misinformation posted on those websites is truly ludicrous.


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## Ken555 (Feb 8, 2015)

http://robertmoorejr.tumblr.com/post/110101466091/im-an-anti-braker



> I’m taking the brakes off my car. This isn’t a rash decision, so please listen up.
> 
> A few weeks ago I saw a car accident - two people went through an intersection at the same time. Both slammed on their brakes at the same time and collided. Fortunately no one was seriously injured.
> 
> ...




Sent from my iPad


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

I do get info from a few natural health websites. So it isn't thimerosal but it is now aluminum that seems to be the problem in the vaccines.



> Vaccines containing high concentrations of neurotoxic aluminum were added to the child immunization schedule when several vaccines containing mercury were removed. Two-month old babies now receive 1,225 mcg of aluminum from their vaccines -- 50 times higher than safety levels! Although the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization are aware of the dangers, they expect parents to play Russian roulette with their children.



Why can't these vaccines be manufactured without cheap ingredients ? They can but its about profits. If all of the toxic ingredients were removed from the vaccines I would expect very few objections.


Bill


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> He gets his info. from the anti-vaxxer websites - if you google his quotes, it will direct you there.  The intentional misinformation posted on those websites is truly ludicrous.



You do realize that most of the info I used was from the National Institute of Healh and the CDC ? Disparaging what one doesn't completely understand is very ludicrous and myopic.  

The last quote is from Dr. Mercola. I know he has been criticised on quackwatch but he and others like him have a huge following. Not necessarily me on all topics. 

If there is a silver bullet answer I would really like to hear it. The only way some would be happy is to vaccinate everyone. Where does this stop ? Do you require all people entering the USA to provide proof of vaccinations ?

The only way other would be happy is to think on their own and make their own choices. Im in this group for the most part.

Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 8, 2015)

easyrider said:


> I do get info from a few natural health websites. So it isn't thimerosal but it is now aluminum that seems to be the problem in the vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The level of ridiculous in this statement alone is staggering, never mind all the other statements.



Re "Profits",   Absolutey NOT !

I consult for a vaccines and diagnostics pharmaceutical company and before you make these assertions, you need to know what you're talking about.
There is not much, if any, profit in vaccines. Just enough to cover development and ongoing reformulations.

Please do some research from peer-reviewed articles.

ETA: Many of us have tried to educate you, but you refuse to be. We cannot reason with one who slams his mind shut and wants to believe nonsense as science or play the "BIG Bad Pharma" card......... Pulllleeeeeazzze.

-


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2015)

Bill is having a hell-of-a-good-time trolling this thread.  No matter what authoritative evidence is posted, he will just drag something else off the Anti-vaxxers websites to be inflammatory.  I don't think he even believes what he posts - he just loves to stir the doo doo…


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## Jestjoan (Feb 8, 2015)

www.cbsnews.com/news/family-to-receive-15m-plus-in-first-ever-vaccine-autism-court-award/


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Jestjoan said:


> www.cbsnews.com/news/family-to-receive-15m-plus-in-first-ever-vaccine-autism-court-award/



Let's be very clear on this and not just cherry pick headlines.

This child received *9 vaccines that day in 5 shots.* They were delayed and given all on the same day due to, reportedly, she hadn't been feeling well due to her existing condition (MD) and her physician's office played "catch up".

From the Federal Vaccine Court decision:

*the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations Hannah received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.” *

*While Thimerosal was a second theory proposed, the Court chose to make its concession based on the theory that Hannah has an inborn (genetic) metabolic problem: following vaccination, the prolonged febrile reaction produced metabolic stress leading to permanent brain injury as manifested by autism and later seizures. This metabolic susceptibility (mitochondrial dysfunction) may never have manifested as disease if not for the nine vaccinations Hannah received in July 2000.*

Letter to Atty. Krakow:

*Dear Counselor Krakow,
 I would not presume to debate you on matters of the law. However, on matters of medicine and science, it appears that your opinions are less than authoritative. Hannah Poling has mitochondrial disease (MD). This is not in dispute. Nor is it in dispute that this condition doesn’t simply develop at 19 months of age. Therefore Hannah Poling did in fact already have mitochondrial disease prior to her vaccinations and prior to her presenting with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). 

One very significant aspect of MD to medical researchers is the observed fact that MD is only found in one in 10,000 people in the general population, but is found in 1 in 20 people diagnosed with ASD. The connection has not been discovered, but mathematically this is simply too great a correlation to be ignored. 

What this adds up to is, Hannah was born with a condition that is very strongly statistically linked with ASD, got a vaccination, then developed ASD shortly thereafter. There is still no causal link found between these events , although possible mechanisms have been proposed. The important takeaway from the Hannah Poling Vaccine Compensation ruling is that judges in courts are not scientists. A judge could bang his gavel tomorrow and rule that “evolution is just a theory”, but that doesn’t make the existence of evolution any less of a demonstrable fact.*


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

Say what you will with your little quips but the fact is some of you don't know or even care what these people your lableing as anti vaxers are. Many are scientist and doctors who actually feel there is a problem with vaccines. I would say that most are more educated than you would presume.

Here is a bit from Dr Sears.



> But wait. You are probably thumbing back through the book right now to see exactly how much aluminum was in each vaccine. Put your thumb away. At the risk of being repetitive I’ll just list it right here again:
> 
> Hib (PedVaxHib brand only) – 225 micrograms per shot.
> Hepatitis B – 250 micrograms.
> ...



Go ahead and tell me how he is wrong instead of resorting to childish remarks if you can !!! 

As I said before I have had many vaccines in my life and I have also had many childhood diseases. What I have been saying is that I understand why these people would choose not to vaccinate. Apparently some of you don't. That is fine by me but now maybe you do understand this is a bit more complicated than the government saying its ok so you should just comply.

Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 8, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Say what you will with your little quips but the fact is some of you don't know or even care what these people your lableing as anti vaxers are. Many are scientist and doctors who actually feel there is a problem with vaccines. I would say that most are more educated than you would presume.
> 
> Here is a bit from Dr Scott.
> 
> ...



*  Who is Dr Scott ? I cannot find him, this article or its source.  Thank you.*

  -


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2015)

Who is Dr. Scott? - Do you by any chance mean "Dr. Spock" who died in 1998?

When you quote a source, you should provide a LINK to the source, or the name of the source.    A quote with no context is meaningless.


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

my bad, its Dr Sears

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

I wonder who actually is the smarter, the person who does not question a nuerotoxic substance injected into their child or the person who goes with the flow. What would convince people either way ? 

Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Ah, _that _Dr. Sears:

Here's a response to him found in Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/appeal-to-brady-bunch-vaccine-fallacy/


*Hypocrisy, thy name is Bob Sears.

"If Bob Sears weren’t such a worthless excuse for a pediatrician when it comes to promoting misinformation about vaccines, I’d almost feel sorry for him. Almost. He is, however, a perfect example of what the phrase “hoist with his own petard” means. Dr. Bob has for years made a profitable career for himself as the “reasonable” face of the vaccine-averse, painting himself as not like all those other loony antivaccinationists out there but rather as a reasonable pediatrician taking a “middle way” and “listening to parents.” Now the consequences of the ideas Dr. Bob has promoted are starting to become apparent, with measles outbreaks becoming increasingly common right on his home turf, leading the parents of his patients to ask him what to do now that the low vaccine uptake encouraged by him are facilitating measles outbreaks like the most recent one in Disneyland. They are asking him for guidance, and he’s fobbing off the responsibility on them, telling them just to “get the vaccine” and if you “don’t want the vaccine, accept the risk.” Nice.

I’ve been fearing for a long time that the US was only several years behind the United Kingdom and Europe when it comes to suffering a major resurgence of the measles and that such a resurgence was coming. I hope I’m wrong, but I fear that 2015 might finally be the tipping point when measles really comes roaring back to levels not seen in a quarter century or even more. If that happens, Dr. Bob Sears will have to take his share of the blame for cashing in on fear and driving vaccination rates down. He’s not alone."*


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 8, 2015)

This Dr. Sears ?

https://pediatricinsider.wordpress....o-salute-our-children-with-his-middle-finger/


*Dr. Sears continues to salute our children with his middle finger *


The Pediatric Insider

© 2015 Roy Benaroch, MD

Dr. Sears is California pediatrician who made up an alternative vaccine schedule to sell books to worried parents. Though he has said that skipping vaccines is not good for public health, he takes no responsibility for encouraging his own privileged patients to stay unvaccinated. And now that measles cases are stacking up in his hometown, Dr. Bob Sears is sticking to his guns.

In his latest update on Facebook, Dr. Sears continues to minimize the health risks of measles and downplay his own role in fanning anti-vaccination fears. And he has a special f-you to babies and the immunocompromised, who apparently don’t count. Let’s see what Dr. Bob has to say, in his own words. The quotes are from his Facebook post on the “Dr. Bob Sears” author page, posted 1/16/2015.


BOB’S DAILY:

JUST HOW DEADLY IS MEASLES?

What makes measles so scary? What is it about measles that spreads fear and dread through our population? Three things, in my opinion, set it apart from most infectious diseases that make us afraid: 1. It’s untreatable, and it has a high rate of complications, so we are at it’s (sic) mercy, 2. It’s been virtually eliminated from the U.S., so we aren’t used to it anymore, and 3. It’s potentially fatal.

Dr. Sears’ first paragraph is spot on. Measles is difficult to treat, check. It has a high rate of complications, check. It’s potentially fatal, check. We’re on the same page here.

Ironically, Dr. Sears also said that measles has been virtually eliminated from the US. It was. Now, measles has returned. Dr. Sears can pretend that’s not true, and pretend his encouraging parents not to vaccinate had nothing to do with it, but that doesn’t make it true.

Then Dr. Sears tries to back up and claim that what he just said wasn’t true—he called his statements “two truths and a lie.”


Now, let’s play two truths and a lie. Two of these statements are true, and one is not. Well, the one that is not is technically true, but it’s not true in all practical terms.

Untreatable? Correct. There is no anti-viral medication that will help, so we just have to stand by as the disease runs its course. We are powerless, and that creates fear. We don’t want to take a risk with something which we have no way to mitigate or control. The only thing that may make measles less severe is high dose Vitamin A therapy (which is approved by the WHO). But that’s not an anti-viral med; it just helps us fight it off a little better.

1. Complications? Ear infection is the most likely complication – treatable. Pneumonia is next – also treatable. Ya, you don’t want those things to happen, but they are treatable. Encephalitis? That’s much worse. Fortunately it’s extremely rare in well-nourished people (see below).

So, the lie is that measles has a high rate of serious complications. It doesn’t. It CAN, but it rarely does.

Yes, pneumonia is treatable. Many parents would consider an ICU stay somewhat of an inconvenience, but, as Dr. Sears says, “Ya, you don’t want those things to happen.” Encephalitis, he acknowledges, is worse. But he claims it’s “extremely rare in well-nourished people.”

So how common are these complications? Dr. Sears can’t be bothered with numbers, but you can find them on the CDC website: 1 in 20 get pneumonia; 1 in 1000 encephalitis (which can lead to seizures, deafness, and mental retardation); 1-2 out of 1000 will die. Many parents find these risks unacceptable—especially when there’s a safe way to prevent them. Dr. Sears blows them off as “extremely rare.”


2. Eliminated? Virtually. Over the past 20 years we’ve sometimes only had 50 cases a year. Sometimes 150. Nobody knows measles anymore, and when we are ignorant of something unfamiliar, we fear it until we understand it.

Ask any Grandma or Grandpa (well, older ones anyway), and they’ll say “Measles? So what? We all had it. It’s like Chicken pox.” Ask a twenty-five-year-old mom with two young kids, and she’ll scoop up her kids and run away from you for even mentioning the M word.

If you understand measles, you wouldn’t fear it. Respect it.

I do acknowledge that it’s a public health nightmare in that it takes a lot of effort and money to contain these outbreaks. And it causes a lot of people to get tested, quarantined, or treated with preventive immune globulin shots. It’s no joke. But, those efforts are largely because we are trying to contain it, not because it’s going to kill everybody. So, not fear – respect.

There’s this odd fallacy that since people of many years ago had to live through measles (and, presumably, small pox and the black plague) it was “no big deal.” Old cemeteries are littered with tiny little headstones for little dead children. Families had loads of children, then, because it was accepted that many would die. Times have changed. Families expect children to live. We don’t accept many risks now, not because we’re weak or uneducated, but because we don’t have to.

Dr. Sears says “I do acknowledge that it’s a public health nightmare….” Thanks, we appreciate the acknowledgement. But apparently, to Dr. Sears, that’s not a good enough reason to try to prevent measles in the first place.


3. Potentially fatal? Technically true, but herein lies the lie. It’s been publicized as “the deadliest of all childhood fever/rash illness with a high rate of complications.” Deadly? Not in the U.S., or any other developed country with a well-nourished population. The risk of fatality here isn’t zero, but it’s as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. It’s 1 in many thousands. Will someone pass away in the U.S. from measles one of these years? Tragically yes. That will likely happen to one person. It hasn’t happened here in at least ten years (or more – I don’t even know how many years we have to go back to find one). When that happens, it will be extremely tragic.

But will it spread through the U.S. and kill people left and right? No. Does measles do that in underdeveloped countries? Sadly, yes. It kills countless people worldwide every year. So, that’s how health officials can accurately say it’s so deadly. They don’t have to tell you the whole truth, just the part of the truth that they want you to believe.

Measles can also be serious for young infants, just as many diseases can. It can also be serious for immunocompromised people, just as all illnesses. It can also cause pregnancy complications, just like many infections can. Measles isn’t unique in these risks. But they are risks nonetheless.

It is true that most healthy people will get through a case of measles OK (though, as he says, it’s still a “public health nightmare.”) But what about those infants and immunocompromised people and pregnant women? Dr. Sears says “it can also be serious” for them. But, apparently, they don’t count. Their deaths and complications aren’t anything Dr. Sears and his followers should worry about.

Dr. Sears ends his update with this smarmy and self-serving conclusion:


So, fear measles? No. Not in the U.S.. Respect measles? Yes. Take appropriate precautions with it. But don’t let anyone tell you you should live in fear of it. Let’s handle it calmly and without fear or blame.

I will keep you up to date in the weeks to come.

Dr. Bob

Yes, Dr. Sears. Let’s handle this calmly and without fear or blame. As in “don’t blame me for what I’ve said and done for the last ten years. It’s not my fault you’ve listened to me, and it’s not my fault I’ve lied and obfuscated and done everything I can to flame vaccine fears to sell my books.”

Dr. Sears says we should “Take appropriate precautions with it.” He’s right. The appropriate precaution is to vaccinate our children. Don’t fear the vaccines. And don’t listen to this self-serving, hypocritical fool. Make sure you, your children, and everyone you know and love are fully immunized.

-


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## Jestjoan (Feb 8, 2015)

*Example of Vaccine Industry Corruption*

http://www.omsj.org/blogs/proof-that-big-pharma-doesnt-care-about-vaccine-harm


And this which doesn't fit the title. From Patricia Jordan DVM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/86-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link#fullscreen

Her book http://www.amazon.com/Mark-Beast-Hidden-Plain-Sight/dp/1448644534#reader_1448644534


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2015)

You realize that Dr Benaroch has books and a website that he is promoting and is basically promoting pharmacy over anything natural as one of his main dealios. He also writes that nurse practitioners working in clinics prescribing drugs is bad. He calls chiropractors quacks. Im sure he has offended many health professionals in one way or the other.

In other words he seems like he knows it all. Im sure some people , you included, believe every word he says. 

Im certain that he is a self promoting media hound by the adjectives and verbs he uses to describe other doctors and professionals.

I would say world press is about the same as any other blog site. Most of the articles are somewhat truthful just not very factual. 

Dr Sears lists references on his page showing his research. Your guy, not at all. Here is the reseach behind Dr Sears information.



> References
> 
> Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration, Document NDA 19-626/S-019, Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act for Dextrose Injections. Available online at http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/appletter/2004/19626scs019ltr.pdf
> Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration, Document 02N-0496, Aluminum in Large and Small Volume Parenterals Used in Total Parenteral Nutrition. Available online at http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/98fr/oc0367.pdf
> ...



So one article seems like opinion, the other looks more like research. Objectively looking at both articles one would have to question who is actually right or more right. 

Why does any toxic materials need to be in a vaccine ? If there were no toxins there wouldn't be a credible argument, imo.

Bill


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Bill, I almost feel guilty, but have to say that you asked for it.  You line 'em up and I'll knock 'em down. See, I've done this for 35 years with advanced degrees and in-depth, in-the-trenches kind of work; one's life's work, real-life applications with academic and professional hard work & dedication. Vaccine safety is not a hobby or a cherry picking Googling exercise.
Some advice, quit while you're behind.*

*You realize that Dr Benaroch has books and a website that he is promoting and is basically promoting pharmacy over anything natural as one of his main dealios
Response: **Yes, it’s an excellent website which promotes intelligent, safe and current treatment information with advice for pediatric patients and their parents/caregivers by a general pediatrician who is also an adjunct professor of Pediatrics at Emory University. He treats in the traditional, established, safe tradition of pediatrics. His books are excellent resources as well.  *

*He also writes that nurse practitioners working in clinics prescribing drugs is bad.*
*Response*: *No he doesn't. You really don't have a grasp on the content.  Read the article again, but this time with comprehension. 
What he does is to address the ongoing problem of over prescribing. It is based on well documented, evidence based research that my fellow FNPs in retail/mini clinics in stores and pharmacies are overprescribing antibiotics for conditions not requiring antibiotics. It’s a problem and is being addressed at different levels.  Patients want the quick fix and unfortunately, the clinicians in these clinics are overprescribing as it's almost expected. These NPs are at a disadvantage as they do not have access to the patient's past medical charts and as most of them are FNPs and not PNPs, so they tend to "cover" the pedi patient with an Rx. That's his valid concern in a nutshell.      

 Incidentally and BTW, Dr. Benorach has PNPs in his practice. *

*He calls chiropractors quacks.  *
*Response*: *Please cite where he calls them “quacks”. I couldn’t find that. He differs strongly with Chiros on treating pedi scoliosis with manipulation,  but did not see where he called them quacks. Personally, I like Chiros, but the physicians I've worked with for some time do not .*

*I'm sure he has offended many health professionals in one way or the other 
Response: Not sure of that, he hasn't offended me, but I know he’s offended you and Dr. Sears…………… and that’s a good thing in refuting these unfounded theories. * *What he's done is to expose Sears and Gordon.*

*In other words he seems like he knows it all. Im sure some people , you included, believe every word he says. Im certain that he is a self promoting media hound by the adjectives and verbs he uses to describe other doctors and professionals.*
*Again, the level of ridiculousness in these statements are staggering, just staggering. *

*Response:* *Media hound ? I think that is Dr. Sears and his cohort:  “Drs. Gordon and Sears – the profiteering, publicity-seeking ‘celebrity’ pediatricians they are – completely disregard the CDC-recommended vaccination schedule and instead give their unfounded blessings to thousands upon thousands of parents to not vaccinate at all,” said Chris Hickie, an Arizona pediatrician who has tracked both doctors’ exploits on his website." See citation source noted below.*

*I would say world press is about the same as any other blog site. Most of the articles are somewhat truthful just not very factual. *
*Response: HUH ?*

*Dr Sears lists references on his page showing his research. Your guy, not at all. Here is the reseach behind Dr Sears information.So one article seems like opinion, the other looks more like research. Objectively looking at both articles one would have to question who is actually right or more right.* 

*Response: **My “guy” ?  I see now that you really don’t know what a credible, peer-reviewed article is . Nor do you understand what accepted and safe practice is. You have listed a bunch of citations, but if you don't understand what is contained in them, you're just cutting & pasting and nothing more. Further, here are some professional articles on "your guy":*

http://www.immunize.org/concerns/offit_moser2009.pdf

http://www.stopsearsandgordon.org/others.html - *An excerpt:  “Drs. Gordon and Sears – the profiteering, publicity-seeking ‘celebrity’ pediatricians they are – completely disregard the CDC-recommended vaccination schedule and instead give their unfounded blessings to thousands upon thousands of parents to not vaccinate at all,” said Chris Hickie, an Arizona pediatrician who has tracked both doctors’ exploits on his website.*
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2014/03/23/worried-about-measles-dont-call-dr-bob-sears/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...accine-advice-have-professional-consequences/





*Why does any toxic materials need to be in a vaccine ? If there were no toxins there wouldn't be a credible argument, imo.*
*Response: **By asking this, I can see that your have not done your homework and have not read much on the subject. Surely you could have found your answers as you did before with Googling why. 
Read why below: 
Preservatives and additives are in vaccines. Dr. Vincent Iannelli wrote an informative page explaining what & why:*

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/0608_vac_aditvs.htm

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/6/1394.full



-


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## Ken555 (Feb 9, 2015)

If It Happened There: Traditional Beliefs and Distrust of Authority Fueling Disease Outbreak

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...ver_anti_vaxxers_if_they_were_in_another.html



> The latest installment of a continuing series in which American events are described using the tropes and tone normally employed by the American media to describe events in other countries.
> 
> WASHINGTON, United States—Battling the country’s worst measles outbreak in years, medical professionals say that many Americans’ fears about Western medicine and distrust of the government are making it harder to combat the disease.
> 
> ...




Sent from my iPad


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## Brett (Feb 9, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> If It Happened There: Traditional Beliefs and Distrust of Authority Fueling Disease Outbreak
> 
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...ver_anti_vaxxers_if_they_were_in_another.html
> 
> ...



yes, but I don't think the US is going to end up like Nigeria and Pakistan because of nutty beliefs about vaccines.


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## easyrider (Feb 9, 2015)

Jestjoan said:


> http://www.omsj.org/blogs/proof-that-big-pharma-doesnt-care-about-vaccine-harm
> 
> 
> And this which doesn't fit the title. From Patricia Jordan DVM
> ...



Looking through these links, as well as BM's links, I would have to say that there is definitely a reason to doubt vaccines as the safest way to go, especially in regards to infants. 

So there it is, if doubt exists then vaccination should be at the discretion of the parent, not anyone else.

I suppose if the medical research could be manipulated in either direction it likely has. If these vaccines were so perfect there wouldn't be a need for government protection to the manufacturers from lawsuits.

Bil


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 9, 2015)

I have seen a ton of BS on TUG Lounge, but this takes the prize.


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## Beaglemom3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Jestjoan said:


> http://www.omsj.org/blogs/proof-that-big-pharma-doesnt-care-about-vaccine-harm
> 
> 
> And this which doesn't fit the title. From Patricia Jordan DVM
> ...



Mark of the beast ? Veterinary medicine ?  

Seriously ?

It's official. I have seen it all.

I think I'm done here.

-


-


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## Ken555 (Feb 9, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I have seen a ton of BS on TUG Lounge, but this takes the prize.




ROFL 

I've been waiting for you to chime in on this thread. 


Sent from my iPad


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## DeniseM (Feb 9, 2015)

I just hope it doesn't influence anyone to not get their child vaccinated...


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## Jestjoan (Feb 9, 2015)

*Updated HRSA Report*

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreport.pdf


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## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> I just hope it doesn't influence anyone to not get their child vaccinated...




Of course it will! Ignorance breeds ignorance, and "studies" that purport to be based on science with legitimate concerns simply validate parents fear...which is created and maintained by those who benefit by it... But anyway...


Sent from my iPad


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## easyrider (Feb 10, 2015)

Its been an interesting thread to me anyway. What really is the motivation of people on both sides of the vaccination issue ? We all know there are risks if there is no vaccination and for some there seems to be risk with vaccination. In this article it is thought that the differences of opinion has to do more with the biased response of the risk itself. 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2015/...l-biases-play-a-part-in-vaccination-decisions



> Studying these issues is difficult, in part, because what we construe as an "act" versus an "omission" could itself depend to some extent on the personal and social context of our decisions. In an environment in which vaccination is the norm — and in which withholding vaccination requires applying for a rare exemption — that application for exemption could be construed as the act and not the omission. There's also evidence that how a behavior is construed — as doing harm versus merely allowing harm — depends on whether the behavior itself is regarded as morally good (doing one's duty for herd immunity, say) versus morally bad (free-riding on others' immunization, or putting one's child at unnecessary risk).



Educating people in a soft manner would likely be the best route to take as people will dig in their heels instead of learn anything when confronted with attitude and differing beliefs. 

I thought this article describing why people act as they do a very good article that does seem to explain what motivates both sides. 

Bill


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## geekette (Feb 10, 2015)

Read that mumps is in the northwest.  Read it last night, my details are likely sketchy, but I thought it started at a university in Idaho and now into Washington state.

Oh boy, measles AND mumps!  Cannot be happier that my state required I get MMR before marriage.


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## easyrider (Feb 10, 2015)

*Italian Court rules that vaccines cause autism this month.*

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/u-s-media-blackout-italian-courts-rule-vaccines-cause-autism/



> he courts’ decisions are striking because they not only find a vaccine-autism causal link, but they also overrule the decisions of Italy’s Ministry of Health. And taken together, the court decisions found that both the MMR and a hexavalent thimerosal- and aluminum-containing vaccine can trigger autism. - See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/u-...e-vaccines-cause-autism/#sthash.ztsrWRNL.dpuf




Wouldn't it be better to remove the offending ingredients out of the vaccine so no one would have reason to complain ? Maybe silver could be used as an adjuvant instead of aluminum, idk.

Bill


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 6, 2016)

'Anti-Vax' Mother's Regret Over Whooping Cough 'Nightmare' - from BBC News/ World/ Australia/ bbc,com

"An Australian mother has said she regrets refusing the whooping cough vaccination during pregnancy after she passed the potentially fatal infection to her newborn baby.

Cormit Avital said she had turned down the vaccination because she was a "healthy, fit, organic woman".

She caught the disease shortly before giving birth and passed it to Eva, who has spent a month in intensive care.

Ms Avital recorded a video warning about her "nightmare" experience.

"If I could turn back time I would protect myself," she said, in the video released by Gold Coast Health, the regional health authority..."





Gold Coast Health 


Richard


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## SMHarman (Apr 6, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Bill - If you are going to argue this point, you should know that vaccinations are NOT mandatory, and haven't been for a very long time.  Parents have the legal right to opt-out for their children.  This is exactly what is causing the rise of childhood diseases in the US that were previously considered to have been eradicated in the US.
> 
> As ampaholic pointed out, ALL medical treatments and ALL medications have "possible" side-effects.  So should we eliminate them ALL because some people might have a reaction?  That's nonsensical....
> 
> BTW - I have an autistic child...so I am far from insensitive to this topic.  I can assure you that his immunizations did not cause his autism.  I knew he was different from birth...


The right to opt out exists, however in many states that then leads to the need to home school.


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## geekette (Apr 8, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> The right to opt out exists, however in many states that then leads to the need to home school.



as it should, to protect the children that cannot be vaccinated due to allergy or existing chronic illness.  I support school system requirements that have appropriate exemptions.  "I have no evidence, but I think it's bad for my kid" is not, in my opinion, a valid exemption.  

I have to get a flu short or be fired.  There are exemptions but "I think it will give me the flu" is not a valid one.  At previous jobs where flu shots were offered free of charge, I didn't feel the least bit bad for those who didn't get the shot and then ended up sick, but I was very glad to be innoculated against whatever they were carrying.  

People have the right to refuse proactive medical treatment, but they don't have the right to carry their illnesses to the already-compromised kiddos that couldn't be vaxxed.  I'm all for free will, but I am against harming the innocent with my actions or inactions.  No shots?  No school.  Choice belongs to the parents.


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## puppymommo (Apr 9, 2016)

I am starting work at a hospital. As many of the patients are immunocompromised, all employees must have all their immunizations. On Monday I got the TDP (tentanus, diptheria and pertussis), the hepatitis B and a flu shot (can't remember which one). The hep B is a series of 3 shots. They also did a blood test and determined I had antibody for measles and ruebella but not mumps, so I must have the mumps shot.

As others have stated, I did have a choice not to take the shots. But if I wanted to work there, I had to take them. This is fine by me; I don't want someone else to get sick because of my choice not to get vaccinated.

As for side effects, after taking the three shots, I did feel significant fatigue for 4 days following. Not bad enough I couldn't work, but I was yawning all the time and went to bed right after work. Don't know which one was the cause, or a combination of the three. All in all, not a bad side effect. On my next visit to employee health, I will get the second hep B and the mumps. (Don't know if there is a separate shot for that or if I will get the  MMR -- measles, mumps and rubella.)


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## SMHarman (Apr 9, 2016)

puppymommo said:


> I am starting work at a hospital. As many of the patients are immunocompromised, all employees must have all their immunizations. On Monday I got the TDP (tentanus, diptheria and pertussis), the hepatitis B and a flu shot (can't remember which one). The hep B is a series of 3 shots. They also did a blood test and determined I had antibody for measles and ruebella but not mumps, so I must have the mumps shot.
> 
> As others have stated, I did have a choice not to take the shots. But if I wanted to work there, I had to take them. This is fine by me; I don't want someone else to get sick because of my choice not to get vaccinated.
> 
> As for side effects, after taking the three shots, I did feel significant fatigue for 4 days following. Not bad enough I couldn't work, but I was yawning all the time and went to bed right after work. Don't know which one was the cause, or a combination of the three. All in all, not a bad side effect. On my next visit to employee health, I will get the second hep B and the mumps. (Don't know if there is a separate shot for that or if I will get the  MMR -- measles, mumps and rubella.)


Actually you can sign an osha opt out instead. They don't like to tell you that though. 

Do they keep you away from the imunocompromised while you shed over the next few days / weeks?


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## calgal (Apr 9, 2016)

None of the shots puppymummo received are live virus, so no risk of shedding to the immumocompromised. The MMR planned, however, has live attenuated virus with a risk of shedding.


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## puppymommo (Apr 9, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Actually you can sign an osha opt out instead. They don't like to tell you that though.
> 
> Do they keep you away from the imunocompromised while you shed over the next few days / weeks?



Yes, this all has to be completed before I start work. Except for the second and third hep B.


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## geekette (Apr 11, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Actually you can sign an osha opt out instead. They don't like to tell you that though.



Maybe, maybe not.  I work in an At Will state, they can fire me for any reason or for no reason.  Not getting required shots is a firing offense.  OSHA has nothing to do with it, I would need religious or medical reasons to opt out.  

An employer has the right to secure their workplace as they see fit and I don't think OSHA can override, especially in an At Will state.  Interesting angle, however, and I'd be interested in successful challenges against such immunize or be fired situations, especially when public health is at risk by allowing health care workers to skip immunizations.

How long until forced immunization stretches to food handlers?


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## SMHarman (Nov 18, 2018)

geekette said:


> How long until forced immunization stretches to food handlers?



I know. It's a miracle we all didn't die off in the 70s when only 8 vaccines existed.


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## Luanne (Nov 18, 2018)

SMHarman said:


> I know. It's a miracle we all didn't die off in the 70s when only 8 vaccines existed.


We may not have all died off, but there were many more cases of the diseases that are prevented by vaccination.


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## bbodb1 (Nov 18, 2018)

House has the proper line of thinking on this:


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## Makai Guy (Nov 18, 2018)

SMHarman said:


> I know. It's a miracle we all didn't die off in the 70s when only 8 vaccines existed.


You replied to a thread that's been dead for 2 1/2 years to add THAT?


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## SMHarman (Nov 18, 2018)

Makai Guy said:


> You replied to a thread that's been dead for 2 1/2 years to add THAT?


Tapatalk works in mysterious ways. 

I just got an update on this thread. 

Apologies for necro posting.


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## TravelTime (Nov 20, 2018)

This thread talks about science and vaccines and should be closed. Anti-Vax movement is very controversial. But I see this is an old thread so probably irrelevnt now.


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2018)

Please - if you think that a post violates the TUG posting rules, instead of commenting on it, click the *Report* link.

I am closing this old thread.


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