# Westin St. John New Villa Ownership Question



## scottcara (Jan 10, 2007)

Hello everyone,

I wanted to know if the $85K price tag for a 3BR Villa Starwood Ownership opportunity for the WSJ is a good deal or not.  They offer 148,100 Staroptions and additional incentives on the Starpoints with the deal.  This is for a "floating" week and a platinum plus purchase.  

I have seen a lot of discussions on this forum about resales and since this is a very new purchase option at St. John as well as the desire of the location, will the prices go up?  According to the salesperson, the owner of existing villas will not be given the option to reserve the new ones and I assume that these weeks go very quick.

So with St. John being as beautiful as it is, does it make sense to lock in at these prices or wait for resale once occupancy begins in late 2007/early 2008.  

Thanks in advance...


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## dlpearson (Jan 10, 2007)

Will the developer sales prices go up?  Almost guaranteed.  Will resale prices ever reach the original developer sales price?  Probably not.  There has been debate (over on the Caribbean board) whether the new units/location are better or worse than the original section.  Personally, if I had my heart set (and the $$ to spend) on a 3 bedroom unit, I'd buy a resale 3 bedroom unit from the first phase and get the private pool that goes with it and save quite a bit of money (granted you have no view per se).

David


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## lawren2 (Jan 10, 2007)

scottcara said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> *I wanted to know if the $85K price tag for a 3BR Villa Starwood Ownership opportunity for the WSJ is a good deal or not. * They offer 148,100 Staroptions and additional incentives on the Starpoints with the deal.  This is for a "floating" week and a platinum plus purchase.
> 
> ...



$85k plus an annual Maintenance Fee for 1 week a year.  

Rent a beautiful villa on the island for $3 to $5k when you wish to go like we do. Enjoy complete privacy and much better views than Westin can give you.

No worries or hassels of ownership. Just a wonderful vacation.

A no brainer IMHO.


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## dlpearson (Jan 10, 2007)

lawren2 said:


> $85k plus an annual Maintenance Fee for 1 week a year.
> 
> Rent a beautiful villa on the island for $3 to $5k when you wish to go like we do. Enjoy complete privacy and much better views than Westin can give you.
> 
> ...



I can support what Lawren says.  Due to an exchage request (internal within Starwood even!) that never panned out after being on the wait list for 6+ months, we ended up renting a beautiful home for $2,800 just up the hill from the Westin with our own pool, 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, full kitchen, great view, etc.  I'm afraid it's spoiled me!


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## travelguy (Jan 10, 2007)

*$85K ????*

I believe, IMHO, that $85K is way too much for one week!   You should consider 6 1/2 weeks of High Country Club for only $50K in great 2-4bd properties at many great locations like Turks & Caicos, Maui, Cabo, etc.  You could pay for first class airfare for all those vacations with the investment yield from the $35K you save!


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## lawren2 (Jan 10, 2007)

dlpearson said:


> I can support what Lawren says.  Due to an exchage request (internal within Starwood even!) that never panned out after being on the wait list for 6+ months, we ended up renting a beautiful home for $2,800 just up the hill from the Westin with our own pool, 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, full kitchen, great view, etc.  I'm afraid it's spoiled me!




David did you use that company I like so much?  

STJ is just one island where owning just doesn't make much sense <at least to me and mine>.


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## DeniseM (Jan 10, 2007)

Welcome to TUG - I just wanted to add that most of the Starwood posts and owners are on the Hotel Based TS Board on TUG.

As far as the price, please seriously research buying a resale at the existing resort, before you spend that kind of money!


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## gmarine (Jan 10, 2007)

Unless you have $85,000 cash laying around and are rolling around in much more $$$$ than that, you would be crazy to spend that much on a 1 week a year timeshare.


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## scottcara (Jan 10, 2007)

*Thank you all very much for your information*

It does sound like a lot of money.  As a newbie, my other question is if you are "guaranteed" during a resale of the timeshrare in WSJ to earn the 148K or so Staroptions.  Are there instances where the resale just doesn't allow that to be the case.

I do appreciate all your responses.  As to the rentals, it is nice to be part of the resort where you can use all the amenities and have housekeeping, auto rentals, and other people around to mingle with.

What is the typical "resale" as a percentage of the overall purchase price in a location such as WSJ?

Scott


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## Denise L (Jan 10, 2007)

scottcara said:


> As to the rentals, it is nice to be part of the resort where you can use all the amenities and have housekeeping, auto rentals, and other people around to mingle with.



Scott, 

This is exactly why we like the resorts because they often have on-site restaurants, kids for kids to play with, etc.  We try and avoid the super busy weeks because then we feel too crowded.  Without kids, I'd definitely LOVE to rent a home for a great price!

Like DeniseM mentioned, a lot of the Starwood owners (resale and developer) are over on the other board. There are a lot of WSJ owners!


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## Loriannf (Jan 10, 2007)

*That's a different story from Starwood again!!*

"According to the salesperson, the owner of existing villas will not be given the option to reserve the new ones and I assume that these weeks go very quick."

We purchased an additional 3 bedroom WSJ in when we were there in April (we now own weeks 17 and 18 - Platinum Plus) and were told by Starwood that we should have a "better chance" of trading into other seasons as owners would be allowed to use StarOptions to book into the newer units.  I wouldn't, of course, be interested in the newer units as our 3 bedroom unit has a private pool, which we use heavily.  Note that there is a difference in seasons between the new and old units - in the new units, our weeks would be Platinum.  We've tried off and on for the last two years to change one of our April/May weeks for a June week and have not been successful.

Resales for the existing units often run very close to developer pricing - we had been looking for another week resale for about 2 years before we bought our unit from Starwood.  The difference in price was about $4K, and we were given 120,000 StarPoints which I think we've utilized in ways worth more than the difference in price.  

As far as appreciation goes, we purchased our first 3 bedroom week in 1999 for about $28K, and our second in 2006 for @$50K (both developer).  We hope that there will be as much appreciation on our recent purchase as soon as the people who buy the new units realize they don't get the private pools and have to share the resort pool with everyone and start looking to buy the "older" units.

Just my 2 cents.

Lori


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## scottcara (Jan 10, 2007)

*Lori, thank you and some additional questions*

Thank for all your great info.  So, please pardon my naive questions, when you say developer do you mean Starwood direct sales or someone else?  Also when you are locked into those weeks in the older villas, are you then able to float into another period considering you are already Platinum plus.  Finally, i have seen some that have said the resales can be qualified to earn the Staroptions?  Is that correct in all cases?

Glad you love the St. John area, i do as well and development there is tough given the National Park and it's a short ride to other destinations in the Carribean.


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## Avery (Jan 10, 2007)

And remember, that $85,000 doesn't get you a week every year... It gives you the right to pay a healthy Maintenance Fee every year to stay at WSJ for one week...

Sorry, I just don't get it. And yes I have been to St John, and seen the WSJ. But that's a college fund!! Or a really really awesome car, that you could drive _every day_


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## tomandrobin (Jan 10, 2007)

scottcara said:


> Thank for all your great info.  So, please pardon my naive questions, when you say developer do you mean Starwood direct sales or someone else?  Also when you are locked into those weeks in the older villas, are you then able to float into another period considering you are already Platinum plus.  Finally, i have seen some that have said the resales can be qualified to earn the Staroptions?  Is that correct in all cases?
> 
> Glad you love the St. John area, i do as well and development there is tough given the National Park and it's a short ride to other destinations in the Carribean.


 
Try posting in the Hotel based forum located at the bottom of the forum page. That is where the Starwood owners are located. Developer means from Stawood. The existing St John units are considered mandatory, which means the staroption use transfers with the sale/resale of the unit. There is talk that the new phase is voluntary, which means you have staroptions with your purchase from the developer, but can not be transfered to a new owner when you sell the unit.

One other thing, Westin St. John is nearly impossible to trade into, even internally. St John owners return to their home resort 95% of the time or rent to private parties. Rarely will you see a unit available for exchange, especially the three bedrooms.

Please go to the Hotel-Based Timeshare forum, there is a lot more information on Starwood and their resorts.


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## Loriannf (Jan 10, 2007)

*College fund is covered and I don't really need a new car*

Avery:

I agree it's a lot of money, but we tend to spend our disposable income on travel, not clothes, jewelry or cars.  Our child's future is covered, I think, due to the fact that we spent the first 12+ years of our marriage working and saving, not vacationing.  Now that we're in a comfortable position, we prefer to guarantee our trip to St John every year, with full access to the Westin's amenities, and plenty of room for family and friends.  To us, St John is the most wonderful place and it fits our vacation needs and interests to a tee.  Everyone has different thoughts on timeshares, villas, etc. and everyone has their own perfect spot.  We're just fortunate enough that we found ours at a time when we could afford it.  

Lori


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## Loriannf (Jan 10, 2007)

*I second TomandRobin's recommedation*

to go to the hotel-based timeshares board for more Starwood info.  We did buy both of our units from Starwood.  Yes, we should be able to "float" our fixed week within our season, but there just aren't that many vacancies as everyone tend to use their week(s).  StarOptions do attach to resales of the original WSJ units because they're mandatory, but I've heard rumors to the effect that the new units aren't mandatory.  The hotel-based timeshares board has a sticky regarding requalifying Starwood resales, so I recommend you check that out also.

Hope this helps,

Lori


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## arlene22 (Jan 11, 2007)

This 3 BR villa recently did not sell on Ebay for $55,000.


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## Loriannf (Jan 11, 2007)

*It's Week 35, that's why*

Week 35 is end of August/beginning of September - very few people will chance that part of the Caribbean during September.  Historically, that's when the VI gets the majority of its hurricanes.

Also, unless you're very savvy in the ways of Starwood and use your week 35 to get an early June week, you probably won't be able to rent it out, either.

Lori


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## OCsun (Jan 11, 2007)

Lori,   Amen to that!  Just as in anything we buy, the price of a timeshare follows the value of the property.  Week 35 is going to be less valuable then most weeks at any Caribbean resort.  On the other hand, you would be hard pressed to buy a week 16, WSJ three bedroom pool unit, for $55,000 because they are not available.  Lucky I bought mine when I did.  

I wish I could afford to buy a second week, but that's not going to happen.       Pam


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## gmarine (Jan 11, 2007)

Loriannf said:


> Week 35 is end of August/beginning of September - very few people will chance that part of the Caribbean during September.  Historically, that's when the VI gets the majority of its hurricanes.
> 
> Also, unless you're very savvy in the ways of Starwood and use your week 35 to get an early June week, you probably won't be able to rent it out, either.
> 
> Lori



Been to the caribbean 9 times in Aug/Sept. Never had a hurricane. Statistically speaking, the odds of a storm hitting a particular island while you are there is very small.


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## gmarine (Jan 11, 2007)

OCsun said:


> Lori,   Amen to that!  Just as in anything we buy, the price of a timeshare follows the value of the property.  Week 35 is going to be less valuable then most weeks at any Caribbean resort.  On the other hand, you would be hard pressed to buy a week 16, WSJ three bedroom pool unit, for $55,000 because they are not available.  Lucky I bought mine when I did.
> 
> I wish I could afford to buy a second week, but that's not going to happen.       Pam




$55,000 for a timeshare. Wow. I sure hope you paid cash and didnt finance it.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 11, 2007)

Hey - a discussion on WSJ - great!

First - as mentioned - the Hotel-based section is the best place to have this discussion.  Lori is a great resource of info on the 'Virgin Grand' 3Bd TSs at WSJ.  Virgin Grand (VG) is what they are calling the Hillside units.  I own a 2Bd Townhouse that I bought on eBay (resale) for what I consider an unbeatable price - we LOVE STJ and WSJ - got engaged there - so I am a bit biased.  And is I ever wanted to I likely sell our unit for more than I paid - no plans to, but always a nice fallback in case our money tree dies.  I am actually hoping that the seler of our week (fixed) will sell their adjacent week to us - because 2 weeks in STJ at WSJ would be sweet! {cross-fingers}.  

Our MF is about $1300 for a week for a fully contained 2bd/3Ba 1250sqft TH - with full WSJ resort priviledges - and a semi-private pool - THAT is hard to beat no matter how you cut it.  Plus - as noted - VG is SVN Mandatory so we could use the SVN exchange system (not that we would because the SO exhange value is very low).  As mentioned, it is currently understood that the BV section is SVN Voluntary which means that you can buy into the SVN exchange system, but upon resale this is not transferred to the buyer.   This has caused the resale value of other SVO (Voluntary) resorts to lose quite a bit of value compared to Developer costs (as compared to Mandatory resorts).

I wrote a post about the BayView (BV) WSJ units a while back - after a discussion with a WSJ TS salesperson.  The BV units are being sold as both float and fixed (at a premium) - with only so many units within a season being sold as fixed.  The issue for the VG units is that they are fixed - and that causes them to be severely limited in the ability to exchange - both for owners trying to exchange within their season and definitely for SVN exchangers.  Having partial float and fixed for the BV units should help to mitigate this.  They also change the seasons between the 2 sections even though they share the same resort.  Our Week 24 is Gold, but would now be Gold+ if it were down below - I guess the weather is different down there - 

There was a 3Bd BV units that sold on RedWeek that was listed for $34K (Week 50), but this unit went very (very) fast - 2Bd units are about the same price (or a bit lower).

As to paying $85K!!! Wow!  Perhaps I didn't read your post correctly - but this must be a fixed week in the best season.  Regardless - that is a lot of money - I agree with other posters here on this.  I listed the prices that I was told by the TS salesman on the Hotel board.

Lori - if you are reading this... Do you have a copy of the WSJ Owners Manual?  Is it possible to get a copy from you?  If it is paper-only I would be happy to pay for the mailing.  I ask this because of recent discussions on the Hotel-based board about Mandatory vs. Voluntary - and this mystry 'Club' that is referred to.


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## scottcara (Jan 11, 2007)

*Tks Robin-Here is additional Info on the Bay Vista Pricing*

I just received this from SVO on the pricing of the Bay Vista accommodations.   


	Annual Price


Resort	Price
Westin St. John- Bay Vista	
Three Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51, 52 (*Does Not Include weeks 7, 16, 51 & 52)	$109,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$64,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50 (*Does Not Include week 47)	$49,995.00

Two Bedroom Loft	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51, 52 (*Does Not Include weeks 7, 16, 51 & 52)	$109,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$64,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50 (*Does Not Include week 47)	$49,995.00

Two Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51, 52 (*Does Not Include weeks 7, 16, 51 & 52)	$79,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$54,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50 (*Does Not Include week 47)	$39,995.00


Westin St. John- Bay Vista (Float Pricing Only)	
Three Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$84,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$54,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50	$39,995.00

Two Bedroom Loft	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$84,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$54,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50	$39,995.00

Two Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$64,995.00
Platinum- 19-33	$44,995.00
Gold Plus- 34-50	$34,995.00


Westin St. John- Bay Vista (Ultra Premium Prime Wks)	
Three Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$127,995.00
Gold Plus- 47	$59,995.00

Two Bedroom Loft	
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$127,995.00
Gold Plus- 47	$59,995.00

Two Bedroom	
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$94,995.00
Gold Plus- 47	$44,995.00


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## scottcara (Jan 11, 2007)

*So my question is this*

Based on the pricing for the new 3BR with Platinum Plus and 148,100 Staroptions at $85K and float vs. a Hillside resales at some cost well below and a locked weeks, is it crazy to buy the new Timeshare option since you lose the private pool and you can save a lot of money for the HS villas?  

I appreciate keeping this thread active on this board as we are getting good dialog and I wanted this to be a surprise to my wife for our 10th anniversary in August but don't want to make a huge financial mistake.  What are your thoughts on the value of the new BV villas vs. the Hillside given the Voluntary and Mandatory terms as well as this is St. John where you can't get other real estate.

Scott


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## scottcara (Jan 12, 2007)

*Additional information on Costs from SVO*

Maintenance for the three bedroom BV's are $1,775 and you can't occupy the first years since they will not be available until 2008. 

Incentive is 180K Starpoints for Platinum Plus


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## tomandrobin (Jan 12, 2007)

IMO I don't think mandatory or voluntary really matters that much on resale for St. John. The resort has such a high trade value that it doesn't seem reasonable to use the Staroptions and I doubt many of the existing owners ever have used the staroptions associated with thier units. Like I mentioned earlier 95% of St John owners either use or rent thier weeks out. As mentioned by others, St John is undervalued for the Staroptions they offer. As far as resale value, its anyone's guess, but I would bet it would retain more of the original cost/value then most other timeshares. 

We have been to St John in October, our friends own weeks 42 and 43 (three bedroom) and never have had a problem with storms.


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## Loriannf (Jan 12, 2007)

*I think the Hillside (VG) can't be beat*

But of course I'm biased, since I own two weeks :whoopie:  Some of the Hillside units are only 2-3 years old (the numbers would be buildings 43 and 44) and the second of our two weeks is in one of these units.  We've not stayed there yet (we're going in May), but there are some design differences between the two.  The "new" unit (4310) had two separate bedrooms upstairs as opposed to two bedrooms separated by pocket doors in the "old" unit (4210).  4310 also had two bathrooms upstairs, a hot tub in one end of the pool, and a very "urban" style/design - lots of black, gray and white.  4210 is decorated in a much more "tropical" style and I think, the pool's bigger since there's no hot tub.  

There have been two votes in the last year to add a special assessment for the older units (buildings 41 and 42) to completely redo the kitchens, bathrooms, and perhaps, a wall upstairs to separate the bedrooms.  Owners voted in a large majority to approve the assessments, but NOT ENOUGH OWNERS voted, so it was defeated.  Hopefully, the issue's not dead and another more organized vote will be taken.  I think the company hired to organize the voting, etc. did a poor job with alot of owners getting their proxies only 3 or 4 days before they were due.  But that's another story.

If it's extremely important to you which week you want to go, I would look for a resale Hillside.  Be advised, however, that good weeks don't often show up.  We'd looked for two years for a resale in week 16, adjacent to our week 17, and ended up buying developer week 18 because none were to be found.  If you have children, or plan to travel with groups of friends or family, it's really hard to beat the privacy and convenience of the pool villa's courtyards.  It's the perfect place to rinse off after the beach, grill in the evening, and entertain.  

Scott, feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Lori


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## Blue Skies (Jan 12, 2007)

*Thread Hijack*

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I am wondering why week 16 is an ultra-premium prime week?  What is the significance of this week?


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 12, 2007)

Blue Skies said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread, but I am wondering why week 16 is an ultra-premium prime week?  What is the significance of this week?




See this thread (post #10 I think) on the Hotel-based section
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32080

Week 16 is Patriot week - does that mean the other weeks are not Patriots?


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 12, 2007)

tomandrobin said:


> IMO I don't think mandatory or voluntary really matters that much on resale for St. John. The resort has such a high trade value that it doesn't seem reasonable to use the Staroptions and I doubt many of the existing owners ever have used the staroptions associated with thier units. Like I mentioned earlier 95% of St John owners either use or rent thier weeks out. As mentioned by others, St John is undervalued for the Staroptions they offer. As far as resale value, its anyone's guess, but I would bet it would retain more of the original cost/value then most other timeshares.
> 
> We have been to St John in October, our friends own weeks 42 and 43 (three bedroom) and never have had a problem with storms.



I agree that the V vs. M catagory probably doesn't matter, but until there is more data...
Having a Voluntary week cannot be a positive even though it probably won't matter.

It seems that the VG (Hillside) units are all fixed - does anyone have a float week at VG?  As said - having a fixed week/unit has it's obvious benefits - but owner exchanging within a season (8-10 months) is difficult - and VERY difficult for non-owners.  If you are not 5* Elite - having to be on a waitlist to get in (and giving up the unit that you want to exchange) is essentially useless.  The BV WSJ units will help eleviate this since SVO is limiting the number of fixed weeks.

The original owners of WSJ VG have had the resale value of their weeks increase over time.  This is likely due to the limitation of available TS units (and that is is a wonderful resort and STJ is fantastic...) - now that there are going to be more units - I assume that the value of the VG 2Bd units (and perhaps the 3Bd?) will drop now that there are going to be many more 2Bd and 3Bd units.  But as pointed out - that only matters if one sells.

The SOs are totally out of line - not sure why that is?  Our 2Bd/3Ba TH is only worth 67.1K SOs - the same as a studio at WKORV!?


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## tomandrobin (Jan 12, 2007)

------------------


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## tomandrobin (Jan 12, 2007)

Loriannf said:


> But of course I'm biased, since I own two weeks :whoopie:  Some of the Hillside units are only 2-3 years old (the numbers would be buildings 43 and 44) and the second of our two weeks is in one of these units.



We think the Hillside units are the best also. Every morning we had our tea and coffee, sitting on the balcony with that beautiful view of the bay. The older three bedroom units (VG), we did not like. The newer three bedroom units (VG), we liked very much. 

As far as the new phase units, I would have to see them before passing judgement. I know they are conversions of the hotel buildings. From what I recall, they don't have much of a view. But it would definately be a lot more convient to the hotel amenities.


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## el birdos (Jan 12, 2007)

*I'd go Hillside if you can wait*

Scott, it sounds like you and your wife have an opinion of St. John and the Westin similar to mine and my wife's.  A couple of months ago we were ready to bid on a 3 bdrm w/ private pool hillside unit on TUG's classified pages.  It was advertised at $42k.  It was for week 49.  I understood from the buyer that the points were only good for trading within the Starwood system and only for some of their resorts.  We didn't care.  Like, apparently, 95% of the Westin STJ owners we planned on going back to WSJ every year.

So, I was planning on buying the WSJ unit resale, not caring about the points, and getting involved in a timeshare points system (for more vacations) with a seperate, less expensive resale purchase later.

Unfortunately, the buyer had an offer within a few days and closed on the deal quickly.  

So, if you can wait for a 3 bdrm w/ pool to come onto the resale market (and you can outbid me...lol), that's what I would do.  $85k is a lot for a timeshare!

PS. It seems like the mf for the hillside was quite a bit less than you have listed above.


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## scottcara (Jan 12, 2007)

*Biggest question I am having trouble with being new to Timeshare idea is the ROI*

Why would anyone want to spend $50K or $85K plus $1,500 in MF/year when you can either rent a villa (pretty much any week/any season) for a "decent" price of a few thousand dollars/year.  It would take an awfully long time to add up to even the "resale" value not to mention that $50K in the bank at 6%% will earn $250/month in interest or $3K/year in interest.   Enough to pay for 1/2 the vacation in a 3BR every year and you are not locked into every year and worrying about were to use your "staroptions"  

The whole deed thing seems like everyone says on the BBS that buying from the developer loses you money after you sign the paperwork so what's the magic in timesharing if you are better off just renting? 

Take $50K and divide it by 10 years of vacations at $5K a piece and the power of money in the future vs. what it's worth today and then coupld the rising MF's and you are looking at least at a 12-15 year ROI and only if you either take a vacation every year (which you can still rent at the Villas on a very regular basis for approx $6K or so) 

I am not trying to sound alarms, just trying to convince myself of what makes sense in this whole thing?

Scott


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 13, 2007)

scottcara said:


> Why would anyone want to spend $50K or $85K plus $1,500 in MF/year when you can either rent a villa (pretty much any week/any season) for a "decent" price of a few thousand dollars/year.  It would take an awfully long time to add up to even the "resale" value not to mention that $50K in the bank at 6%% will earn $250/month in interest or $3K/year in interest.   Enough to pay for 1/2 the vacation in a 3BR every year and you are not locked into every year and worrying about were to use your "staroptions"
> 
> The whole deed thing seems like everyone says on the BBS that buying from the developer loses you money after you sign the paperwork so what's the magic in timesharing if you are better off just renting?
> 
> ...


Perhaps this thread should move to back to it's original location where discussing TS ownership is discussed and discussed... and... discussed...
 

sorry - I couldn't help myself...  
:ignore:


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## stevens397 (Jan 13, 2007)

This is a price list that I received a number of months ago.  The world has gone crazy!



Resort	Price	Star Options	Star Points
Westin St. John- Bay Vista			
Three Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$115,700.00	 148,100 	 76,800 
Platinum- 19-33	$70,200.00	 95,700 	 54,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$50,700.00	 81,000 	 34,500 

Two Bedroom Loft			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$105,900.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Platinum- 19-33	$63,700.00	 81,000 	 46,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$45,500.00	 67,100 	 32,000 

Two Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$83,200.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Platinum- 19-33	$53,900.00	 81,000 	 46,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$37,700.00	 67,100 	 32,000 


Westin St. John- Bay Vista (Float Pricing Only)			
Three Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$87,995.00	 148,100 	 76,800 
Platinum- 19-33	$52,995.00	 95,700 	 54,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$37,995.00	 81,000 	 34,500 

Two Bedroom Loft			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$79,995.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Platinum- 19-33	$47,995.00	 81,000 	 46,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$33,995.00	 67,100 	 32,000 

Two Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 1-18, 51,52	$62,995.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Platinum- 19-33	$39,995.00	 81,000 	 46,000 
Gold Plus- 34-50	$27,995.00	 67,100 	 32,000 


Westin St. John- Bay Vista (Ultra Premium Prime Wks)			
Three Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$127,300.00	 148,100 	 76,800 
Gold Plus- 47	$55,800.00	 81,000 	 34,500 

Two Bedroom Loft			
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$116,500.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Gold Plus- 47	$50,000.00	 67,100 	 32,000 

Two Bedroom			
Platinum Plus- 7,16,51,52	$91,500.00	 129,800 	 60,000 
Gold Plus- 47	$41,500.00	 67,100 	 32,000 



Note: All pricing, incentives, promotions, or any information provided is subject to change without notice unless a contract is pending.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 13, 2007)

scottcara said:


> Why would anyone want to spend $50K or $85K plus $1,500 in MF/year when you can either rent a villa (pretty much any week/any season) for a "decent" price of a few thousand dollars/year.  It would take an awfully long time to add up to even the "resale" value not to mention that $50K in the bank at 6%% will earn $250/month in interest or $3K/year in interest.   Enough to pay for 1/2 the vacation in a 3BR every year and you are not locked into every year and worrying about were to use your "staroptions"
> 
> The whole deed thing seems like everyone says on the BBS that buying from the developer loses you money after you sign the paperwork so what's the magic in timesharing if you are better off just renting?
> 
> ...



Let's see...If you buy resale, say week 15 for 50k, MF of $1500. In ten years you have paid $15,000 in MFs. You will probably be able to sell your week for at least the $50k you padin resale. Or you can rent $5K to $8k a year and in ten years paid $50k to $80k with nothing to sell.

So the difference (on the low side) is $35k. It could be alot higher, $65k on the high side. 

I know these numbers are not in stone. They do not account for inflation or finding a 3 bedroom resale for $50k. I can only assume that the resale unit will not depreciate any further (I actually think they will go up in ten years). 
But I think that overall my outlook is reasonable.

And one last thought, your week is there for you every year. No hassle to find a rental for the week you want, for the price you want.


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## OCsun (Jan 14, 2007)

gmarine said:


> $55,000 for a timeshare. Wow. I sure hope you paid cash and didnt finance it.



Dear gmarine,  I am not sure why you would be concerned, but I did not pay $55,000 for my unit and I would never finance a timeshare.  FYI - I know someone who tried to purchase a week #16 from the developer for $55k.  The world is full of people who have more money than time and are willing to guarantee a vacation week when and where they want it.  

Also, I have been lucky enough to rent my unit every other year for enough rental to cover two years of maintenance fee's and airfare for two people.  This unit has literally, afforded us a free vacation every other year with a pretty fair chance of getting all of our investment or even $15-$20k more back if we should sell it.  I am feeling very happy about my decision to purchase our WSJ unit.   Pam


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## LauraS93 (Jan 14, 2007)

OCsun said:


> Also, I have been lucky enough to rent my unit every other year for enough rental to cover two years of maintenance fee's and airfare for two people.  This unit has literally, afforded us a free vacation every other year with a pretty fair chance of getting all of our investment or even $15-$20k more back if we should sell it.  I am feeling very happy about my decision to purchase our WSJ unit.   Pam




We WSJ owners are a lucky bunch indeed!   When we bought back in 1998, I never thought I'd feel as good as I do about the purchase.  It turned out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made.


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## lawren2 (Jan 14, 2007)

I am jealous of you all. Really. You all bought at a good time. Fixed weeks in the original phase and it has worked well for you.

Back to the OP who in the very first post asked:

*I wanted to know if the $85K price tag for a 3BR Villa Starwood Ownership opportunity for the WSJ is a good deal or not. They offer 148,100 Staroptions and additional incentives on the Starpoints with the deal. This is for a "floating" week and a platinum plus purchase.*

From what I have interpreted from the posts here, only ONE  has admitted to paying as much as $50k for a prime FIXED week. The rest have spent whatever but NONE of you have spent $85k for a FLOAT.

I've watched from afar and have heard how difficult it is to reserve other weeks at WSJ <as 95% use thier weeks>.

The OP has young children and working with school calendars, if not his present issue, will BECOME an issue for years to come.

SO is $85K for a float week platinum plus in the new phase worth it? and will it appreciate in value?

I think not.


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## Negma (Jan 14, 2007)

I love reading this board, I just wish I found it two years and 40K ago. Duke in another post really put it best (and he is the king of accumlating options), it is about choices.
This purchase can clearly be made for less. Never buy these TS's looking for appreciation or investment because that is not what they are, they are the abilty to force yourself ( or make sure) you go on vacation and stay at a nice place. I have seen so many financial analysis that it gives me a headache. Remember a used car will get you to the office too, but a lot of us like new ones.
All of that being said, learning what I have seen on this board and in practice, for 85K you can buy several weeks of vacation that will build memories of a lifetime for a young family. 
Sorry for the philosphy, we are in the middle of deciding whether to go for 5* (thank you for the help duke), and we have been debating the true worth of another TS and how we would use the options.


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## scottcara (Jan 14, 2007)

*Do you lose money vs. Renting?*

It's my first week here and I am sure that I have a lot to learn about TS. Maybe it's good that I bring a fresh perspective to this even though I have to admit that I have not read every single post of the BBS.  

I love the WSJ live everyone else.  I have been there once and stayed only in the hotel portion in the 2BR traditional suite.  

I wanted to deconstruct the arguement about the "forcing yourself to go on vacation every year" discussion b/c to me, just look online and you will see an abundance of 2-3 BR for WSJ for rent for almost any week of the year.  Yes you will spend anywhere from 4-7K depending upon the "newness" of the accommodations but it's a single event and not a perpetuity like a traditional TS where you can't actually store anything there and you share it with 51 other families throught the year.  The whole fixed week thing seem like checkmate vs. the float option and even that seems tough given that from the other posts, nobody can book there b/c of the demand for the rooms.  

On to the finance side, run a compound interest calculator where you don't touch the principal on $50K for 10 years and you get $81,444.73 ...Inflation is running at about 3% therefore for every year you own the timeshare the $50K that you may get in return is only worth about 30% less than what you could buy for that same principal in say 2017...(that's why our parents never understand why our house cost so much compared to their's 30+ years ago, but that's another story )  So what would you rather have the same $50K that can only buy $20K+ of the same thing in the future and still have paid $15K in MF's or... $81K in the bank at 5% interest

I am not an accountant so I am looking for the breakeven and I understand the simplicity of "booking your week" and not having to "worry" about the vacation.  

Everyone does these for different reasons but do you wind up breaking even at some point?

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the reason for this post....My 10th wedding anniversary is coming up in August and I wanted to surprise my wife with the TS.  Since we got married on Virgin Gorda (Little Dix Bay), the WSJ is so close via ferry from Caneel that we could easily visit that georgous island anytime and have a place to call home once/year.

Thanks,

Scott


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## scottcara (Jan 15, 2007)

*Is WSJ a good investment for Rental market*

I would like to know if the owners of WSJ could advise me if they make money renting the units year over year?

If the resale is somewhere in the $50K range and the rents are "good" does anyone consider alternating years and making some money at this at a relatively low overall investment risk?

Thanks,

Scott


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 15, 2007)

scottcara said:


> It's my first week here and I am sure that I have a lot to learn about TS. Maybe it's good that I bring a fresh perspective to this even though I have to admit that I have not read every single post of the BBS.
> 
> I love the WSJ live everyone else.  I have been there once and stayed only in the hotel portion in the 2BR traditional suite.
> 
> ...



Hi Scott -
This debate has gone on since I started reading TUG (incl. aschives) - so this discussion/debate has been going on for a while (as I was joking about...)

We own 3 weeks at 3 great SVO resorts (all resale - all SVN Mandatory)  - and we paid a premium for getting into WSJ and for OF at WKORV - so that speaks volumes (...that we are both nuts :hysterical: ).

As for our WSJ week - we could sell for more than we paid AND it gives us a cheaper per nite stay at essentially a 5* resort (Caribbean relative) on one of the premier islands in the Caribbean - plus we could rent for more than the MFs (~$1350 - do the math...), but no plans to - in fact we'd like to get another week (but that is another story).

So why are we certified crazys... because the only thing of value that we came away with from our first and only TS spile is that it also FORCES us to take a vacation (and certainly not the appeal of the financial investment).  

This may sound weird, but some people in life need to take forced vacations - especially before one can't do it (e.g. lying in a grave...) - because of how our work consumes us (in more ways than one...) and years can go by.

Compare the cost to taking the time off work, cost of plane/taxi/ferry tickets , rental car, clothing (for Robin) - eating out/eating in - sightseeing, buying stuff (again Robin) and activities like sailing/scuba (ok... me), etc.

I don't think that the only cost of lost money worth considering is the TS cost.  And certainly there's a value for not lying in your grave wishing you worked harder and took less vacation (or dreaming of what might have been... DMB).

I think it is important that if you are going to go TS - and have the $$ - WSJ can be a great value.  If you want to get to 5* Elite (and again have the $$) buy resale and requalify (and repeat).

If you do buy and want the SVO product (there are others...) - I (and others) advise to buy your first TS where you want to go and buy resale (Mandatory).  

Hmmm.... that's what we did (ty TUG)   

If you want an 'investment' - DNA is doing well :whoopie: {sorry ...kidding SEC...}.

btw - the Ferry to the BVI goes out of Cruz Bay (make sure you bring a passport).  Another advantage of WSJ/STJ is that it is a US territory.

Have a great 10th anniversary.
Good Luck with whatever you decide.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 16, 2007)

blujahz said:


> plus we could rent for more than the MFs.


 
My friend owns three weeks at WSJ. He rents one of the weeks (3 bedrrom) and uses the other two. The rental covers his MF's for all 3 units.



blujahz said:


> So why are we certified crazys... because the only thing of value that we came away with from our first and only TS spile is that it also FORCES us to take a vacation (and certainly not the appeal of the financial investment).
> 
> This may sound weird, but some people in life need to take forced vacations - especially before one can't do it (e.g. lying in a grave...) - because of how our work consumes us (in more ways than one...) and years can go by.



I will second this...they are crazy! 

Actually, it does force you to slow down and smell the roses, take a vacation. I am a certified work-a-holic. I am up at 5am, gym, at work by 7 am, work thru lunch, leave at 5, dinner, then work in the home office. I took one vacation in my 20's (honeymoon), and didn't really started taking "real" breaks until a few years ago. Now that we own timeshares, it helps make me plan trips. Actually its opened a whole new world for me and my wife. We can't wait for our next trip and the next, and so on. 

My wife and I went round and round about buying a timeshare. It took three years to convience her. Then one day she sat back and started adding up our costs to St. John, Cancun, Arizona, Jamica, Punta Cana, Key West, etc. and realized would can do this smarter. She actually cuaght my off guard when we bought our Kierland unit. She agreed to do the tour, but did not want to buy (again). We didn't even make it thru touring the units and she told the salesman to give us a 2 bedroom l/o unit platnimum. She then turned to me and asked "If that was ok?". I was dumbfounded, I had been working on her for so long that I didn't know what to say. The salesman saw my  puzzled look and ask if we needed to be alone to talk about it. 

No regrets two years later. Now I just need to work on the 5* elite! She don't think we need 4 more weeks.


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## scottcara (Jan 16, 2007)

*Atlantis and WSJ Timeshare preview package available*

Just wanted to give back from those that have been so kind to me on this board, I received an unrelated solicitation from SVO for a preview of either Harborside or WSJ.  The prices were as follows

6 Day 5 Nights at Harborside $1,975 1/2-5/30 and $1,475 other times for a 1BR Villa and $100 reward cert

6 Day 5 Nights at WSJ $1,595 1BR and $2,460 2BR with a $150 food cert 

With both you have to sit through the 90 min preso.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 16, 2007)

scottcara said:


> Just wanted to give back from those that have been so kind to me on this board, I received an unrelated solicitation from SVO for a preview of either Harborside or WSJ.  The prices were as follows
> 
> 6 Day 5 Nights at Harborside $1,975 1/2-5/30 and $1,475 other times for a 1BR Villa and $100 reward cert
> 
> ...



Ours was at the Sheraton Kauai (Poipu), but was only about $560 for 5 nites, including a rental car, and $100 certificate - and did not require a TS presentation, but if you took the TS presentation they gave you another $100 plus a 50% off certificate for a Starwood Hotel stay (rack rate - useless).  A great bargain vacation - and we ended up buying and then rescinding...

For WSJ - I am not sure if that is a good price or not to sit thru a TS presentation to get information (and misinformation) that you can get here on TUG.  I guess from a rental value it is worth it.  Make sure you tell them that they only have 90 minutes  and no longer..


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## tomandrobin (Jan 17, 2007)

blujahz said:


> Ours was at the Sheraton Kauai (Poipu), but was only about $560 for 5 nites, including a rental car, and $100 certificate - and did not require a TS presentation, but if you took the TS presentation they gave you another $100 plus a 50% off certificate for a Starwood Hotel stay (rack rate - useless).  A great bargain vacation - and we ended up buying and then rescinding...
> 
> For WSJ - I am not sure if that is a good price or not to sit thru a TS presentation to get information (and misinformation) that you can get here on TUG.  I guess from a rental value it is worth it.  Make sure you tell them that they only have 90 minutes  and no longer..



We did the WSJ presentation a few years back. It was the most laid back tour we ever took next to our Disney Vacation Club tour.


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## kcgriffin (Jan 17, 2007)

I own dedicated week 52 2BR, I rent it in the years there are 53 weeks, hence I own Christmas week every few years.  I have never had a problem renting for $6K.

Having said that, here is the text of the letter I will be sending to the resort.

Let me begin by telling you that my family and I have greatly enjoyed coming to St. John for over 11 years.  I wish I could say the same for our Westin Villa, which is growing increasingly shabby and dirty.

I just wrote a check for over $1400 to cover the maintenance for the two-bedroom unit we own, so I’m not particularly happy.  We have just returned from spending our usual week 52 at the Westin, and we have to seriously wonder what you are doing with the over $70K you are collecting from the owners of our villa.

Villa:
•	The refrigerator door would not stay closed; food spoiled, frozen food melted.

•	The dishwasher rollers came off numerous times, resulting in the inability to properly close the dishwasher easily and resulting in the breakage of 3 glasses.

•	Windows are so dirty you can hardly see outside.  Again, other Westin owners uniformly had the same complaint.

•	The unit was filthy: dead bugs in the light fixtures, elsewhere, and a thick layer of dust on the windowsills in the bathrooms.  I reached behind the upstairs dresser for an item and have to wonder if furniture has ever been moved for a thorough deep cleaning.

•	The air conditioning would never get below 76 degrees, no matter what you set the thermostat at.

•	The midweek linen change resulted in clean linens on half of the beds.  No additional soap or shampoo was delivered.  Despite two requests, we never received any washcloths.

•	The villa deck could use a little more furniture.  Two chairs for a unit that sleeps six?

•	The wood blinds on the front door are falling apart.

•	We were missing a dining room chair; last year there were six, this year five.

•	While packing and washing clothes on our last night, our water was turned off at 10:30 pm.  No notice was given.  The front desk didn’t know why and had to send a maintenance man to check it out.  He discovered men working on our pipes; they said we would have water by 6:00 am.

Pool Area:  
•	The villa pool water is cold, as it has been in past years.  Can a heater be installed as suggested in previous years? Also the villa pool deck could use a few high-quality chaise lounges; the 3 cheap chaise lounges are an eye sore and more chaises are needed.  All owners we talked with at the top-of-the-hill villas uniformly agree with these points.


I have been involved in the hospitality industry for several years and feel that the Westin St. John always manages to disappoint.  I see that the Westin brochure on display in our villa highlights Westin’s superb reputation.  This boast is likely relevant to other Westin properties, but certainly not to the Westin St. John.   If not for the beauty of the island, we would find another vacation destination.  

In closing, we would appreciate details from you on how our large management assessment is being used.  We would also like you to share with us your most current plans for the much-needed update of our villa.

Thank you for your consideration.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 17, 2007)

kcgriffin said:


> I own dedicated week 52 2BR, I rent it in the years there are 53 weeks, hence I own Christmas week every few years.  I have never had a problem renting for $6K.
> 
> Having said that, here is the text of the letter I will be sending to the resort.
> 
> ,,,



I would like to also write a letter to reierate some of these things - we didn't have any real issues - except the sofa really needs to be replaced.  What is the best contact person/address?  I know another owner who would also like to contact them about some thing.  We own 3410 - what unit do you own?  

Perhaps WSJ owners should start a letter writing campaign?


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## jerseygirl (Jan 17, 2007)

This is so disappointing to hear.  I've been REALLY looking forward to an exchange I was thrilled to find through II (with a resale Broadway Plantation week -- gotta love that Starwood preference period).

As usual, I've over-exchanged for the year (that's what happens when you own more weeks than you can possibly use!) and have been trying to decide which one(s) to cancel or give to family/friends.  I hadn't even considered giving this one up ... until now.  Dirty is one thing I can't handle (unless it's my own dirt ).


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2007)

jerseygirl said:


> This is so disappointing to hear.  I've been REALLY looking forward to an exchange I was thrilled to find through II (with a resale Broadway Plantation week -- gotta love that Starwood preference period).
> 
> As usual, I've over-exchanged for the year (that's what happens when you own more weeks than you can possibly use!) and have been trying to decide which one(s) to cancel or give to family/friends.  I hadn't even considered giving this one up ... until now.  Dirty is one thing I can't handle (unless it's my own dirt ).


Our unit was not dirty (last June) - but the units did need to be updated. A special assessment vote to update the units keeps failing (enough percentage - not enough total votes).  If the maintanence and cleaning is not being kept up - they need to hear about it.


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## Loriannf (Jan 18, 2007)

*I think it's all tied to the failed assessment*

If enough owners had voted, the villas would have been renovated.  I've written a couple of times to ask that they try the assessment again, with better lead time to return the proxies and maybe a call campaign to the owners who did not return any proxies on the first two votes.  I've not received a reply to date.

While our unit last year had some maintenance issues, it wasn't dirty and I'm appalled to think that housekeeping's slipped as most of our maintenance fees cover housekeeping.

Lori


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## tomandrobin (Jan 18, 2007)

Loriannf said:


> If enough owners had voted, the villas would have been renovated.  I've written a couple of times to ask that they try the assessment again, with better lead time to return the proxies and maybe a call campaign to the owners who did not return any proxies on the first two votes.  I've not received a reply to date.
> Lori



I'm not an owner, but I am amazed that not enough owners did not vote for the renovations to the villas. If they took the time to visit one of the remodeled units and compare to the older units, I think it would have passed. And from what I know, the amount of money for the renovations wasn't that bad, at least in my opinion.


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## Loriannf (Jan 18, 2007)

*Most of the owners who voted, wanted it*

but the problem was not enough owners voted.  I know we only got our proxies for the second vote a few days before they were due.  I think the voting was handled poorly and the proxies should have gone out with either the quarterly newsletters or with the maintenance bills.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 18, 2007)

Loriannf said:


> but the problem was not enough owners voted.  I know we only got our proxies for the second vote a few days before they were due.  I think the voting was handled poorly and the proxies should have gone out with either the quarterly newsletters or with the maintenance bills.



Send them a suggestion for sending out the notice with the maintenance bills. I think that is very good idea.


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## kcgriffin (Jan 18, 2007)

Hannah Jones 
hannah.jones@westin.com 
340 693-8000 ext 1920 
is the villa guest relations manager.


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## kcgriffin (Jan 19, 2007)

Wow,

I own several TS and would never recommend one as an investment, but my fixed week 52 2BR unit that I bought as a Christmas gift for my wife in 1999 just keeps going up and up...I'm ALMOST tempted to list it for sale. 

I'm looking forward to more discussion about Manditory vs non-manditory and the implications.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 24, 2007)

*Good News - WSJ VG (Virgin Grand) Owners*



blujahz said:


> I would like to also write a letter to reierate some of these things - we didn't have any real issues - except the sofa really needs to be replaced.  What is the best contact person/address?  I know another owner who would also like to contact them about some thing.  We own 3410 - what unit do you own?
> 
> Perhaps WSJ owners should start a letter writing campaign?



Thanks (kcgriffin) for the contact info for WSJ.  There is an issue about the couch in our unit being worn out - and with the failing proxy vote for the unit refurbish - we were concerned that this would not get remedied. We contacted WSJ about this and received the following response.

"Thank you for the feedback!  Luckily I have some good news.  Just this morning we were approved for funds to begin updating the villas.  We are immediately going into some of the villas that needed new appliances (fridges/stoves) first and furniture/decoarating is the next step.  It is very possible that by the time you come down in 2007 there will be a new sofa.  I will definitely be passing along your comments to our Villa Head Engineer who is in charge of the replacement.  Your unit will be a priority.  I cannot however, guarantee that it will be done by June, as much of the decisions are passed down to us, not made by us and we still don't know if we will be purchasing the furniture somewhere down in this area of the world or if it will all be shipped from the states.  I don't have complete details yet.

This is great news as it allows us to go around the failed proxy.  I would be happy to give you an update on your unit at any time, simply email me and I'll tell you what's been done.  All the owners have been very patient and I am happy to have some positive news for you.

hannah jones   villa guest relations manager westin hotels & resorts"


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