# [official 2017 vistana maintenance fee thread]



## YYJMSP (Oct 19, 2016)

**** Please post your maintenance fees in the database - click here:    DATABASE**

*



_Thanks again, Nico, for providing this valuable service to Starwood owners!  

_



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WKORV:



for a 2BR Deluxe L/O unit:



Maintenance Fee Details 



Due Date - 01/04/2017



Current Year Charges



Maintenance Fee(s) - $ 3,121.50 

Tax - If Applicable - $ 0.00 

Membership Fee - If Applicable - $ 145.60 

Other* - $ 0.00 

Interest - $ 0.00 

Late Fees - $ 0.00 

One Ohana PAC Contribution** - $ 0.00 



Sub-Total Current Year Charges - $ 3,267.10 

Less Payments***- $ 0.00 



Total Due - $ 3,267.10 





2016 Maintenance Fee(s) were $3,121.30 so there is NO increase! 







From the pages attached to the bill:



Extraordinary Projects (ADA-related and misc stuff) +$36.44

Utilities -$27.12 (due to renegotiated LPG contract)

Bad Debt Expense -$11.31

Housekeeping +$10.01 (due to normal occupancy levels now that renovations are complete)

Insurance Expense -$8.78 (reduction in property/terrorism coverage premium)


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## LisaRex (Oct 19, 2016)

YYJMSP said:


> 2016 Maintenance Fee(s) were $3,121.30 so there is NO increase!



Um, no.  By your own admission, there was a $.20 increase.  

Hey, that'll buy you 1/20th of a cup of coffee at WKORV. 

P.S. Congratulations on stable MFs!


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## PamMo (Oct 19, 2016)

2017 MF breakdown for WKORV 2BR LO:

Maintenance Fee(s) - $ 2,265.35
Tax - If Applicable - $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable - $ 145.60
One Ohana PAC Contribution** - $ 10.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges - $ 2,420.95
Total Due		  $ 2,420.95

Projected Fees for Next Year		  $ 2,410.95


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## YYJMSP (Oct 19, 2016)

LisaRex said:


> Um, no.  By your own admission, there was a $.20 increase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I have to pay in CAD so "unchanged" is a moot point once I take currency exchange in to account.  



Here's hoping for a swing in rates in the right direction and this is actually lower than last year from an out-of-pocket perspective...


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## YYJMSP (Oct 19, 2016)

*Wkorvn*

For a 2BR LO EOY:

for a 2BR Deluxe L/O unit:

Maintenance Fee Details 

Due Date - 01/04/2017

Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s) - $ 1,308.07 
Tax - If Applicable - $ 0.00 
Membership Fee - If Applicable - $ 46.80 
Other* - $ 0.00 
Interest - $ 0.00 
Late Fees - $ 0.00 
One Ohana PAC Contribution** - $ 0.00 

Sub-Total Current Year Charges - $ 1,354.87 
Less Payments***- $ 0.00 

Total Due - $ 1,354.87 


2016 Maintenance Fee(s) were $1,318.52, so almost a 1% decrease.  I hope this is a trend for our other 6 VOIs.


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## YYJMSP (Oct 20, 2016)

*SVR Spas (proposed)*

for a 2BR unit, proposed is:

MF - $589.36
Reserve - $169.11

for a total of $758.47.  Does not include property taxes.

Past experience is that this is rubber-stamped through to the final bills...

Compared to a total of $744.63 last year, so a 1% increase


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## YYJMSP (Oct 20, 2016)

*SVR Cascades (proposed)*

for a 2BR unit, proposed is:

MF - $784.48
Reserve - $219.56

for a total of $1,004.04.  Does not include property taxes.

Past experience is that this is rubber-stamped through to the final bills...

Compared to a total of $978.20 last year, so a 2.6% increase, almost 3/4ths of which is an increase in the Reserve (looks like jumps in funds for building painting and unit furnishings, etc, sounds like a ramp-up for a refresh?)


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 20, 2016)

It may be good to rename thread (remove WKORV...) - Denise?


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 21, 2016)

*2017 WKV 1Bd Premium (large) MF*

2017 WKV 1Bd Premium (large) MF

Maintenance Fee: $882.72
Tax:                    $34.86
Total:                  $917.58

(2016 MF + Prop Tax: $863.18 + $31.44 = $894.62)
2.57% increase in Total


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 21, 2016)

*2017 WPORV 2Bd LO (EOY) MF*

2017 WPORV 2Bd LO (EOY) MF

Maintenance Fee: $1,417.40

(2016 MF: $1378.48)
2.82% increase in MF


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## okwiater (Oct 21, 2016)

*2017 WKV 2-Bedroom Lockoff*

$1437.98 + $56.79 property tax = $1494.77
(Last Year: $1406.15 + $52.71 property tax = $1458.86)

This is a 2.46% increase. (Thanks DnR for pointing out my initial error)


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 21, 2016)

okwiater said:


> *2017 WKV 2-Bedroom Lockoff*
> 
> $1437.98 + $56.79 property tax = $1494.77
> (Last Year: $1406.15 + $52.71 property tax = $1437.98)
> ...



Hmmm  - the MF portion has gone up 2.26% for all WKV villas (the same %increase as expected), but the Property Tax change accounts for the %increase disparity between the 1Bd (Prem) and 2Bd LO for the total amount of 2.57% vs. 3.9%???

Added - there is a math error in the 2016 WKV 2Bd LO total MF above - it should be $1458.86 - which is an* increase of 2.46% (not 3.9%) *- Friday afternoon math?


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## jabberwocky (Oct 21, 2016)

*Sdo 2br eoy*

Just received the MF details for 2017 at our SDO unit.  Looks like $586.35 is the magic number for this year.  Details have been posted to database.

2016 was $576.49 so this is approx. 1.5% increase.


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## okwiater (Oct 22, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> Added - there is a math error in the 2016 WKV 2Bd LO total MF above - it should be $1458.86 - which is an* increase of 2.46% (not 3.9%) *- Friday afternoon math?



More like Friday afternoon copy-and-paste from the MF website


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 22, 2016)

*VSN Fee*

I just noticed the VSN fee for 2017

$140 for single week
$185 for multi-week
(add HI tax for weeks for 1st and/or 2nd week owned in HI)

creep, creep, creep...
:annoyed:


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## dioxide45 (Oct 22, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> I just noticed the VSN fee for 2017
> 
> $140 for single week
> $185 for multi-week
> ...



Isn't that the same as it was for 2016?


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 22, 2016)

LisaRex said:


> Um, no.  By your own admission, there was a $.20 increase.
> 
> Hey, that'll buy you 1/20th of a cup of coffee at WKORV.
> 
> P.S. Congratulations on stable MFs!



I was curious - so... let's play a guessing game...
(without looking)

For the following WVC resorts between the years 2012 and 2017:
WSJ-VGV
WKORV
WKORVN
WPORV
WKV

Which had the largest and smallest %MF increase?
{2017 WLR not posted yet, but wouldn't matter}
I was surprised


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## bizaro86 (Oct 22, 2016)

My guess is VGV had the lowest increase, and WKV had the highest.

My reasons are cynical.

VGV was already high, and has an off season. That limits how much extra profit Vistana can take out of the HOAs before they start getting too many weaks back. Plus, they got actual owner representation during that time, so oversight has gotten better. 

I think WKV is the highest increase, since it started low they'll get less complaints and units back if they add some padding for extra profit.

Vistana makes approx $439 in profit on average per week from the management side,  so you know thw higher end Westin properties must be sending at least 600 per week in profits, since some of the Sheraton units couldn't support  $400 in profits given what the fees are.

Source calculation: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1797899&postcount=106


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 22, 2016)

We have a winner!!! If pre-2012 MF for WSJ-VGV were used it would be a huge decrease.  2Bd TH hit $2800 at one point - now $2310.  But very consistent since remodel - been hovering around $2400 while others have crept up.

WKORV 2Bd LO Deluxe has had the most $ increase (by far) - I'll take the WKV %MF increase anyday.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 22, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't that the same as it was for 2016?



Looks like you're right - guess it just feels that way since I use my HomeResort weeks.


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## krj9999 (Oct 22, 2016)

Think you need to revisit your calculations.  I'm seeing $25 million in profit for resort mgmt./ops. not $29 ($9 for mgmt. and $16 for ops/ancillary).



bizaro86 said:


> Vistana makes approx $439 in profit on average per week from the management side,  so you know thw higher end Westin properties must be sending at least 600 per week in profits, since some of the Sheraton units couldn't support  $400 in profits given what the fees are.
> 
> Source calculation: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1797899&postcount=106



Ops/ancillary revenue/costs were further described as well.

Resort operations 

We generate revenue from rentals of vacation ownership inventory. Conversion of VOI occupancy rights into Starpoints provides us with available inventory to rent through Starwood’s distribution system and our own direct sales activities. Historically, transient rentals at our resorts provide us with room revenue, ancillary spend on food and services at our resorts and a marketing source for new owners. Rental expenses include maintenance fees on unsold inventory, costs to provide alternate usage rights, including conversion into Starpoints for owners that elect to exchange their occupancy rights, subsidy payments to property owner associations at resorts that are in the early phases of construction where maintenance fees collected from the owners are not sufficient to support operating costs of the resort and marketing costs and direct operating and related expenses in connection with the rental business (e.g., housekeeping, credit card expenses and reservation services). 

Ancillary services 

We provide food and beverage, retail, golf, spa and other services to our owners, guests and customers and earn fees and other revenues typically associated with these activities and experiences.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 24, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> I was curious - so... let's play a guessing game...
> (without looking)
> 
> For the following WVC resorts between the years 2012 and 2017:
> ...



%MF change from 2012 to 2017
WSJ-VGV:	        -5.7%
WKORVN:	         9.9%
WKORV:	        10.5%
WPORV:	        13.1%
WKV:	         15.9%

WLR will be ~9% but 2017 MF not available yet (8.8% from 2012 to 2016)


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## Scott&Laura (Nov 1, 2016)

For you accountants out their


What is the % of expenses vs total revenue

What is the % management cost vs total revenue

What expenses are or should be attributed to Vistana management and what % attributed to reselling or selling properties.

What % are our fixed costs?

What % are taxes as I cant find delineated?


What is Cost per room rented at each property and also cost of management for each property?

We have interest income so what is our reserves retained for rainy day or Hurricane versus what should we have set aside?

Are their special assessments in future or are we with present assessments very well covered?


Scott


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 1, 2016)

Scott - this is MF thread, but which resort are you referring as some of these are resort specific.
The balance sheet for a particular resort has some of this info - other info is unknown (speculative).  I am not an accountant - and do not care really.  I base my usage on price I pay vs. vacation value I get.
WKV>WKORV OFD>WSJ-VGV>WPORV

WSJ-VGV has the most transparency when it comes to financing.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 1, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> It may be good to rename thread (remove WKORV...) - Denise?



Thanks Mod.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 1, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> Thanks Mod.



Though it needed to be added to the actual post. Now there is no knowing what property the MF in the first post is for.


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## okwiater (Nov 2, 2016)

*WLR 2017 MFs*

Westin Lagunamar 2-bedroom lockoff EOY

2017 MFs = $682.56
2016 MFs = $695.39

This represents a *decrease* of $12.83, or a reduction of 1.85%.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 3, 2016)

okwiater said:


> Westin Lagunamar 2-bedroom lockoff EOY
> 
> 2017 MFs = $682.56
> 2016 MFs = $695.39
> ...



Appears to be largely due to "exchange rate favorability" for electricity?  

The rest of the significant items (common expenses and replacement reserve) pretty much cancel each other out.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 3, 2016)

*Wdw 2br l/o eoy*

0.8% increase.

2017 $614.71 + $161.43 reserves + $56.71 taxes = $832.85

2016 $613.87 + $153.51 reserves + $58.75 taxes = $826.13

Looks like a fairly large increase in wages and repairs, which was mostly offset by a very large decrease in insurance expense.


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## VacationForever (Nov 15, 2016)

*Sheraton Vistana Resort Lakes Phase 2BR L/O Annual*

2017 Maintenance Fees: $980.17
2017 Property Tax: 171.74
Total: $1,151.91

2016 Maintenance Fees: $985.41
2016 Property Tax: 166.35
Total: $1,151.76

Basically flat.  MF actually went down and Property Tax went up. Yippee!!!!


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## komosatp (Nov 15, 2016)

Got HRA in mail yesterday. Here are the Phase II numbers (and Prior):

1 BR - $1,670.09 ($1,668.28)
1 BR prem - $1,786.95 ($1,787.54)
2 BR -  $2,003.15 ($1,998.65)
2 BR LO - $3,171.88 ($3,191.30)
3 BR - $3,388.74 ($3,403.02)

_ETA: I just noticed the amount I paid was like 20 cents different than what is on the budgets. Anybody know what that is about and/or is the variance the magnitude for the larger units? I have the smallest unit._


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## YYJMSP (Nov 15, 2016)

YYJMSP said:


> for a 2BR unit, proposed is:
> 
> MF - $784.48
> Reserve - $219.56
> ...



The actual MF bill matches the proposed above.  Add another $178.55 for real estate taxes.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 15, 2016)

YYJMSP said:


> for a 2BR unit, proposed is:
> 
> MF - $589.36
> Reserve - $169.11
> ...



Actual MF bill matches the above proposed amounts, add another $96.34 for real estate taxes.

The docs say it's a 1.9% increase, almost all of the net increase is in the replacement reserve fund.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 15, 2016)

YYJMSP said:


> I have to pay in CAD so "unchanged" is a moot point once I take currency exchange in to account.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's hoping for a swing in rates in the right direction and this is actually lower than last year from an out-of-pocket perspective...



Well the bills are all in, and in USD we're spending 6.8% LESS than last year  :whoopie:

I'd love to see that as an ongoing trend, but last year included the SAs for retroactive property taxes at WKORV and WKORVN.

If the CAD/USD exchange holds roughly where it is today, we're out of pocket 9% less than last year.


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## okwiater (Nov 17, 2016)

*2017 SMV 2-Bedroom Lockoff*

*2017 SMV 2-Bedroom Lockoff*

$1406.41 + $56.98 property tax = $1468.39
(Last Year: $1373.22 + $44.48 property tax = $1417.70)

This is a 3.58% increase, or a 2.42% increase if you exclude property taxes from the calculation.


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## Joshadelic (Nov 20, 2016)

SVV Bella - Platinum 2br l/o annual...

Maintenance Fee(s) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $1,330.81
Tax - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $194.78
Membership Fee - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $140.00
Current Year Charges 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $1,665.59

Last year was $1,630.78, so this year was an increase of 2.13%.
______________________________________________________

SDO - Platinum 1br annual...

Maintenance Fee(s) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $660.75
Tax - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $45.00
Current Year Charges 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $705.75

Last year was $694.23, so this year was an increase of 1.66%.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 20, 2016)

I think it skews the numbers, and percentages, some to include the VSN fee in the numbers. That number seems pretty steady year to year, but it is the MFs billed by the HOA that matter most in these numbers. Marriott enrolled owners don't include the DC Annual Fee in their calculations.


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## Joshadelic (Nov 21, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> I think it skews the numbers, and percentages, some to include the VSN fee in the numbers. That number seems pretty steady year to year, but it is the MFs billed by the HOA that matter most in these numbers. Marriott enrolled owners don't include the DC Annual Fee in their calculations.



All of the raw numbers are there, so you can calculate the increase in whatever way you think is most accurate. I included the 'Membership Fee'. You're welcome to not include it if that works better for you. Either way the overall increase is about the same. Keep in mind that the $140 or $45 fee can increase each year as well. Two years ago those fees were $134 and $39, so I would think that one should take any increase (or lack of increase) to that fee into account when calculating a percentage. 

All that being said, if you do take the 'Membership Fee' out of the equation, the increase on my SVV MF is 2.36% and SDO is 1.77% - not enough of a difference to skew the numbers.


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