# [2007] Window washing rates = $275 per hour



## Steamboat Bill (Dec 13, 2007)

I just had all the windows on my house cleaned (about 75 or so) and the outside areas under the roof pressure cleaned (to get rid of those pesky round bus nests) today.

There were two guys doing the work and they had a high pressure machine and a nice truck. 

They were here for 1 hour.

Here is the invoice:

Clean windows - $325
Pressure cleaning - $225

Total - $550

I know that I live in a nice area of Boca Raton, but these prices seemed high to me. 

That is $275 per hour per person to wash windows....who need to go to college, when you can charge those rates?

Any comments?


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## wackymother (Dec 13, 2007)

It's only $7.34 per window.


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 13, 2007)

Versus doing it yourself.......priceless....


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## djs (Dec 13, 2007)

Not a bad price, especially since you probably don't have the same tools they had.  If you had to do it yourself, what would your tools have been; bottle of windex and a few rolls of bounty?  Surely that would take much longer than two hours.


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## wackymother (Dec 13, 2007)

I just realized it's more like $4.34 per window. The pressure washing to remove the bugs' nests was separate.


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## gmarine (Dec 13, 2007)

Next time I'm in your area I'll do it for $250 an hour.


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## Luanne (Dec 13, 2007)

Send those guys out to my area.  I think it's WAY more out here.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 13, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I just had all the windows on my house cleaned (about 75 or so) and the outside areas under the roof pressure cleaned (*to get rid of those pesky round bus nests*) today.



Those bug nests are probably nasty mud wasps.  And that's the key to the pricing.

Mud wasps are the same as lawyers, and lawyers charge at least $250 per hour for their time.  Now, if the lawyer charges $250/hour and you want to get rid of him, it must be worth more than $250/hour to get rid of them.

Thus the price of $275. In fact, when you look at it properly, $275 is a bargain, since that's only a small bit higher than what the lawyer would charge.

But those nasty buggers from Dewey. Cheatham, and Howe charge about $350/hour, so it costs even more to get rid of them.

And when you get to the really sticky class action wasps, you never know what it's going to cost.


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## Teresa (Dec 13, 2007)

If it would have taken them 8 hours to do the same job - would that be better for you?  (grin)

As with any service, the end result is what's important.   If they did a good job, you really don't care what their hourly rate is - right?


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## KenK (Dec 13, 2007)

Steve musta grew up in the Catskill Mountains....probably in a room very close
 to the stage at either The Concord, or Grossingers.

BTW....most who can remember that are also probably in S Fl....esp Boca!  Er....right outside Boca....  or in that general area.

Funny man.  

Silve Pen Award:

http://www.tug2.net/silverpen/SilverPen1.html


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 13, 2007)

As the old Grossingers' joke goes "Take my wasps, please"


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 13, 2007)

Luanne said:


> Send those guys out to my area.  I think it's WAY more out here.



I doubt that....more than $275.00 per hour for window washers? I will call your bluff...show me the proof.



Teresa said:


> If it would have taken them 8 hours to do the same job - would that be better for you?  (grin)
> 
> As with any service, the end result is what's important.   If they did a good job, you really don't care what their hourly rate is - right?



I actually had that discussion with a friend. I was satisfied with the work, just amazed that they did the job in 1 hour. I guess next time, I will have to ask what their hourly rate is, not the job rate.

I do care what their hourly rate is as I feel I OVERPAID and will never use their service again. 

Geeze, for $550.00....I will clean them myself as this is after tax money for me, thus I would have to earn about $1,000 (them pay my taxes) then pay them. In other words, it was not worth it. I only pay about $50/hr to have my car cleaned and waxed and those guys do a fantastic job.



johnmfaeth said:


> Versus doing it yourself.......priceless....



For the price I paid...I will clean them myself next time. It is only windows, not surgery (oh yeah, I actually did a surgical residence).


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## Luanne (Dec 13, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I doubt that....more than $275.00 per hour for window washers? I will call your bluff...show me the proof.



Prices I've seen in my area are quoted by the window.  So, if you paid around $4 something per window, it's definitely cheaper.  I don't have any hard _proof_ to show you, sorry.  If I find something I'll post it. :whoopie:

Okay, here's one company I found in my area and their method of cost estimation:

"How to figure the cost for your window cleaning 
 Count the number of window panes. 
 Multiply that by $7.00
- example(15 window panes X $7.00 = $105.00) that is all it cost to have your windows cleaned inside & out."

So your 75 windows, assuming they are single pane would be at least $525.00.  

On another note, we got a bid recently for some work to be done on our downstairs bathroom.  We were given a total for the job, not a per hour price.  I asked dh why they couldn't give us a breakdown.  Now that we're into the job I'm glad they didn't.  There have been several delays, one "redo" (not the installer's fault).  If we'd been paying by the hour, I'm betting the original estimate would have already been blown.  So, I'm just wondering if it's normal to bid by the job, not by the hour.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 13, 2007)

djs said:


> Not a bad price, especially since you probably don't have the same tools they had.  If you had to do it yourself, what would your tools have been; bottle of windex and a few rolls of bounty?  Surely that would take much longer than two hours.



FYI - they only washed the outside of my windows (not the inside). Some are large 6'x10' and some are small 1'x1' and some windows are combined into a grid of small windows.

Thus, I am not sure how they computed a cost per window. My wife got the original estimate as a job rate only and really did not shop around. I was the one who was here to pay the invoice.

I live in one of those neighborhoods, where anyone coming in automatically doubles or triples their normal prices as they feel these people can afford it.

BTW - $275 per hour x 40 hours per week x 50 weeks per year = $550,000 per year washing windows.

I know a lot of wealthy people such as neurosurgeons, hedge fund managers, professional athletes, movie stars, venture capitalists, and even a few billionaires. 

I guess I will have to add "window washers" to my list of "rich and famous" people list.


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## vivalour (Dec 13, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> BTW - $275 per hour x 40 hours per week x 50 weeks per year = $550,000 per year washing windows.
> 
> I know a lot of wealthy people such as neurosurgeons, hedge fund managers, professional athletes, movie stars, venture capitalists, and even a few billionaires.
> 
> I guess I will have to add "window washers" to my list of "rich and famous" people list.



IMHO you got a good deal, given the number of windows. Would your opinion be different if they took 5 hours using squeegees and a pail of water? 
Sounds like they were very efficient, and had good, up-to-date equipment. Compare with another class of professional who has an office, pays high insurance rates and has to service and maintain equipment. They pocket only a portion of their fees and the rest goes to overhead. Same with window washers.


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## Dave M (Dec 13, 2007)

Your calculations (at 40 hours per week) assume that the workers can start on another home the instant they finish your windows. That's not realistic. That also doesn't take into account that there is someone doing all of the paperwork and making appointments - either these guys in their down time or someone on the payroll. They also pay for equipment, liability insurance, truck purchase and operating costs, tax filings, workers' compensation insurance and a ton of other expenses. 

That price would definitely be competitive in Boston and I _have_ priced windows here. Try getting any service person around here other than someone that works alone with no office support! Expensive is an understatement. 

Please don't get mad at your spouse over your unhappiness. It's not worth it. I'm sure she felt that she was going about it appropriately. You might consider making a few calls to get some estimates so that you'll both know what the market is next time. That might also help you to sleep better about this experience.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 13, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> BTW - $275 per hour x 40 hours per week x 50 weeks per year = $550,000 per year washing windows.



Bill - that's assuming there is business to put someone on paying jobs 40 hr/week.  Anyone who runs a small service business knows that is not the case.

Let's figure this is essentially a one work crew company, and two people are needed to staff a job.  If you're running a single work crew operation, you've got to set up your pricing figuring that you're crew isn't going to be able to doing billable work for more than about half time.

You're also confusing gross revenues and income.  With that two person crew doing billable work half time, this is a $500,000 per year gross revenues company.  From that you need to deduct all of the expenses of running a business.  Not knowing their business I don't know what the cost structure is like.  But having run a small consulting business in an extremely tight cash flow situation (my first job when I walked in the door to take over was to lay off half the staff so we could make payroll next month) I've got a bit of experience with wringing an expense sponge as dry as possible.  

In general, it's very tough to drop non-labor expenses to anywhere less than 1/3 of total revenues even in the smallest operation.  (I can get a bit below that right now as a one-person shop operating from a spare room and with no capital expenses other than computers.) This is a business with significant

Of course, if you still think it's outrageously priced, there's a simple solution.  You should go into the window washing so you, too, can make as much money as those window washers.


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## 3kids4me (Dec 13, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Of course, if you still think it's outrageously priced, there's a simple solution.  You should go into the window washing so you, too, can make as much money as those window washers.



It does appear to beat tutoring Chemistry....


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## Luanne (Dec 13, 2007)

3kids4me said:


> It does appear to beat tutoring Chemistry....



And you wouldn't have to deal with those snotty high school kids. :ignore:


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## bobcat (Dec 13, 2007)

Luanne said:


> And you wouldn't have to deal with those snotty high school kids. :ignore:



The price is ALL about where you live. The nicer a house and area, up goes the price. They figure you can pay for it. They do it where I live.


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## Icc5 (Dec 13, 2007)

*Live with the rich, pay their prices*



Steamboat Bill said:


> FYI - they only washed the outside of my windows (not the inside). Some are large 6'x10' and some are small 1'x1' and some windows are combined into a grid of small windows.
> 
> Thus, I am not sure how they computed a cost per window. My wife got the original estimate as a job rate only and really did not shop around. I was the one who was here to pay the invoice.
> 
> ...



We have the same thing where I live.  When we talk to someone on the phone we have to remind them we are in Los Altos not Los Altos Hills.  It doesn't matter, they hit us up anyway.  Even basic services are more expensive.  An example is garbage.  We pay the same price as surrounding cities yet they get unlimited amout to put out.  We are limited unless we pay more for extra cans.  They get free access to go to the dump a few days a year, we don't.  I live here, so I pay it.
Bart


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## Htoo0 (Dec 13, 2007)

Next time you have your shingles replaced (assuming you have shingles) get back to us with the hourly rate that costs you.


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## Wonka (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm surprised it only took an hour for two persons to clean 75 windows.  For an hours work (2 persons), $550 does sound awfully expensive to me.  Do you have very high windows requiring a truck with a bucket to wash them?  I suppose others are right about the going rate.  I'm happy to have a home small enough that I can wash the windows myself.  It does take most of a day, but now I can feel better about how much money I save each time I do them.


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## Rose Pink (Dec 13, 2007)

And here I was just thinking this week about hiring someone to clean my windows.  Guess I'll leave them dirty until the weather warms up enough for me to do it myself.  At least no one can see in!


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## camachinist (Dec 13, 2007)

Assuming the OP was satisfied with the quality of work, I'd say it was a fair deal. You might enquire about becoming their first franchisee . As someone who works on the equipment they use (high pressure washers and aerial equipment), I know the cap costs and overhead of such ventures. It ain't cheap. If they did a good job, I'd hire them again. Good contractors are hard to find.

Pat


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## Transit (Dec 13, 2007)

I'll pm you with my guy's number(as soon as i can find it) he has the contracts for alot of those new glass storefronts at Deerfield beach and some upscale homes in Parkland.I think he is a lot more reasonable


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## JimJ (Dec 13, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ......
> 
> I do care what their hourly rate is as I feel I OVERPAID and will never use their service again.  .......
> 
> ...



Reminds me of the lady that had her appendix out and got a bill for $2,000 from the doctor.  She thought it was high and asked for an itemized bill.

The doctor replied:  
Removing appendix - $100.  
Knowing where to cut - $1,900.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

After 24 hours of contemplation on the future of window washers, here are some more of my personal thoughts on the situation.

  1. I don’t think I was not ripped-off, just overcharged. 

  2. I am not mad at my wife or at anyone, just AMAZED at how much window washers charge for their services.

  3. The fact that they did the job in one hour vs 5 hours is sort of irrelevant, this is not highly-skilled labor, it is washing windows. If I had 300 windows, then the job may take 5 or 6 hours and I would think the price they charged was MORE reasonable. The fact that it only took them only 1 hour, indicates to me that they overcharged me and were no more efficient than anyone else.

  4. I employ a house cleaner for $15 per hour that cleans all the “inside” of my windows solo in about 3 hours. Why do I pay her $45 total to clean all the inside of my windows and it costs $550 to clean the outside (that is a 12x difference)?

  5. There was NO fancy equipment used on this job. I can see charging a lot of money to clean the windows outside of the Empire State building, but this is a personal residence. They used a hose, bucket, brush, soap, squeegee, rags, power compressor, and a ladder. According to Lowes.com, the most expensive pressure washer is $999.00.

  6. I made the leap to 40 hours per week as a farce, but it is entirely reasonable to expect a window washer in Boca Raton to make 1/2 of what I projected….thus, $225,000 per year cleaning windows is very impressive as I assume 1/2 the time will be devoted to driving to the next sucker.

  7. As far as comparing a window washer to a surgeon, come on now. It takes 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and another 4 years of residency to learn how to take out an appendix. In addition, many doctors are $200,000 in student loan debt after school. I would wager that someone could learn to be a professional window washer in a month or two.

  8. Let me summarize why I posted this thread. I can easily afford to get my windows cleaned for $550 and did not bat an eye, I was just amazed that they charged this much. When I see school teachers (classic underpaid profession) making only $40,000 per year after going to college for 4 years and compare them to a window washer (no college needed) charging $275 per hour, I have to scratch my head and ask why. Perhaps this is a Boca Raton thing or is only isolated to my neighborhood, but several TUGers (very thrifty group of people) have posted that this is a reasonable fee. This indicates to me that there is a potential “Imbalance” in the supply and demand for window washers.

  9. It is my new recommendation for anyone seeking extra income or someone that was recently laid off, to pick up a brush, squeegee, and get to work. I have obviously underestimated the demand for such important skills. Just for fun, I will plan on cleaning my own windows next time and see how long it takes me. Even if they are not perfect, what the heck, I just saved $1,000 (as this is pre-tax money savings for me).


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## Blues (Dec 14, 2007)

I've been reading this thread with amazement.  Not only at the high cost, but the fact that no one else seems to think you were overcharged.  Bill, I definitely think you were overcharged.

Last time we had it done (a few years, to be sure), we were charged $175 to wash both the insides and outsides of all the windows and sliding glass doors in our 2400 sq ft, 2 story home.  They even did the skylights and chandelier that's inacessible to us, since it's in a 2 story cathedral ceiling.

And that's in the Monterey Bay area of California, which is certainly not a low-cost area.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

Blues said:


> I've been reading this thread with amazement.  Not only at the high cost, but the fact that no one else seems to think you were overcharged.  Bill, I definitely think you were overcharged.
> 
> Last time we had it done (a few years, to be sure), we were charged $175 to wash both the insides and outsides of all the windows and sliding glass doors in our 2400 sq ft, 2 story home.  They even did the skylights and chandelier that's inacessible to us, since it's in a 2 story cathedral ceiling.
> 
> And that's in the Monterey Bay area of California, which is certainly not a low-cost area.



Hooray....someone finally agrees with me.

I just ASSumed that TUGers (that typically won't pay more than $500 for deeded real estate timeshares on eBay) would be the first to agree with me, but I am even more surprised that they seem to think this pricing is normal.

I will be in Monterey in January and really love that part of California.

I teach a medical school class for seniors in Jan-Feb and will bring this topic up when the young doctors talk talk to me about "moonlighting" for $50-75 per hour in the ERs.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

Ok…I now feel I was officially “ripped-off” after I found a Blog dedicated to window washers.

http://www.windowwashingsuccesstips.com

  Here are some posts from the forum

  “Sometimes you might do a job where you make $35 an hour.  There might be some obstacles in your way, some extra heavy paint overspray, some tougher windows to access, etc . But then you run into the other type of window cleaning job-super easy, no obstacles, bam, bam, done. Your hourly pay for these jobs might be $60 or $70 an hour.  I've made as much as $100 an hour on some jobs.  But then I remember other jobs where the houses were older, they had these crank type windows, lots of junk on the windows, etc.  So it all evens out over time into a nice average of $45 to $50 per hour.”

  “I got an email not too long ago from a window cleaner with a masters degree in education. He used to be a school counselor. Now he's a full time window cleaner and has already made over 34k in 5 months. Window cleaners across the country are making more incomes than folks with college degrees.  Does it work?  You bet!  You just need to target your services to the right people.“

  Here is a link on “How to start your own window cleaning business”

http://www.yourwindowcleaningbiz.com

  According to the book:

  Take a look at the many advantages of owning your own residential window washing business:

Very Low start-up costs.
Pennies-a-day      operating costs.
Earn up to $500 a day on your own      - more with a crew.
Look      around - glass is everywhere.
Tremendous      repeat business - Glass is always getting dirty.
Complete freedom to choose your own      schedule, hours, and income level you desire.  Work a full      week for maximum income or 3 days a week so you can spend the rest of the      time with your family - it's always your choice.
Work      Part-time or Full-time - If you have a full time job, work around your schedule.  You can      simply schedule a small job after work or Saturday morning to pick up easy      extra cash money.
Work from home.  No outside      office needed.
No      diploma, degree or costly training required.
No      age, gender or background requirements.
Great      business for any man or woman in good general health.
Use your current automobile - no      truck or van needed.
Work      in and around beautiful homes.
Work      outdoors _and_ indoors.
Meet      interesting people.
Enjoy      the satisfaction your customers express after each job.
Get      paid immediately at the end      of every job.
 _*Let me summarize my situation…..I paid $275 per hour/per man just to clean the outside windows of my house.*_


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

Here is another web site that advertises

  “A window cleaning pro can make upwards of $1,000 a day!”

  “I, personally, love skiing and writing music during the 5 month vacation I take every year as an owner and operator of my window cleaning service.”

  “With $150 worth of professional window cleaning supplies and a business license (approx. $50) you can start generating income and clients on the very first day you're open for business.”

  ”Low overhead - you can literally payoff your initial investment within hours of opening your business.”

  ”Requires Less Than An Hour Of Training To Start Making Money”

http://www.freewindowcleaningtips.com/prosandcons-ofthewindowcleaningbusiness.htm

  -------------------------------

  Somebody (not the employee) is getting rich --- here is an ad for a window washer in Malibu, California for $10 per hour….geeze, have him come to my house and I will 3x his salary. 

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/lab/483732564.html


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## geoand (Dec 14, 2007)

Steam, only you can decide whether or not you were overcharged.  My situation is different.  I have 3 story house.  I am scared of heights.  I don't open the windows on the third floor because that action actually gives me a moment of vertigo.  I gladly pay the folks to clean our windows for that reason alone.  The other part of it is that a ladder to handle 3rd flr windows is heavy and awkward.  I ain't the spring chicken I use to be.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

geoand said:


> Steam, only you can decide whether or not you were overcharged.  My situation is different.  I have 3 story house.  I am scared of heights.  I don't open the windows on the third floor because that action actually gives me a moment of vertigo.  I gladly pay the folks to clean our windows for that reason alone.  The other part of it is that a ladder to handle 3rd flr windows is heavy and awkward.  I ain't the spring chicken I use to be.



Do you also pay $275 per person / per hour?


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## easyrider (Dec 14, 2007)

I do care what their hourly rate is as I feel I OVERPAID and will never use their service again. 


It probally killed a half day by the time the guys set up, drove to your home and bought supplies to do your one hour job. Besides that the guys have operating costs to consider. It cost me $85.00 for a tank of gas. When you figure it out they probally only made less than $200.00 on this job and after buying the truck and equipment then splitinng the labor and other business cost they didnt even make that .

With 57 windows ,I believe your ranting about chump change for a guy like you anyway.


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## Luanne (Dec 14, 2007)

easysider said:


> With 57 windows ,I believe your ranting about chump change for a guy like you anyway.



I thought it was 75 windows?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

easysider said:


> I do care what their hourly rate is as I feel I OVERPAID and will never use their service again.
> 
> It probally killed a half day by the time the guys set up, drove to your home and bought supplies to do your one hour job. Besides that the guys have operating costs to consider. It cost me $85.00 for a tank of gas. When you figure it out they probally only made less than $200.00 on this job and after buying the truck and equipment then splitinng the labor and other business cost they didnt even make that .
> 
> With 57 windows ,I believe your ranting about chump change for a guy like you anyway.



I HIGHLY doubt that as they got here at 12:15 and rang the doorbell and left at 1:15 with a check in hand.

I do have a pretty long driveway, thus, I have to account for the drive up to my house too (adding 5 minutes).

What are the operating costs???? -- soap, hose, squeegee, ladder (my water).

$85 for a tank of gas for what? They are based in Boca Raton and their office is less than 10 miles from my house (add one gallon of fuel @ $4). Even if your truck only gets 10 MPG that will get you 212 miles on a tank. I could understand if they drove from Orlando just to see me, but that is ridiculous.

Buying a truck??? They pulled up in a van, heck you could fit all the supplies in the back of a used pickup or my wifes SUV.

----------------------

Here is my conclusion - Window Washers in my area are WAY Overpaid. 

As a comparison, I pay $250 per month to get my lawn cut, edged, weeded, shrubs trimmed. They usually send 2 or 3 guys every week and they are here for an hour and do a great job...This is HARD work.

I will estimate 2 man-hours x 4 visits per month = 8 hours of work per month for $250 = $31.25 per man hour.

In addition, they come with a large truck with a heavy duty cutter, edgers, blowers, and even spray weed killer. Talk about burning fuel.

Now compare that to the two dudes that washed my windows for $275 per man hour.

-----------------

I am telling my kids to forget going to Harvard....I want them to open a window washing company!

------------------

Yes, $550 is chump change when you build a $2 million house.

I have gotten accustomed to people "up-charging" me for everything once they drive into my neighborhood, that I try to negotiate prices BEFORE they get here. However, my wife set this appointment and left me here while she went to have her nails done...thanks!

------------------

I do have about 75 windows (depending on how you count them) and I am STILL CONFUSED if a window washer charges the SAME $ per window to clean a 6' x 10' window located 20 feet above the ground and still charge the same $ per window as a small 1' x 1' windows near the front door?

This does not seem fair.

If I "had" a series of 1' x 1' small windows in a grid that was 6' wide and 10' high, that would be 60 windows and if they charged $5 per window, then they would get $300 just to clean that area as compared to only making $5 if it was one piece of glass 6' x 10'...I am really confused with that one.

I think the new strategy will be for me to have the kids wash all the first floor windows (about 50 of them) and only call the "pros" to clean the 25 windows that are harder to reach.


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## easyrider (Dec 14, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I thought it was 75 windows?



Yes Luanne, your right,75 windows or more it seems plus the house washing. 

If you have 75 windows to clean you must have a big house. Big house = big maintenence. I personally don't think $550.00 is too much for this kind of maintenance. I paid one guy $150.00 to plow my drive way and it took him about 15 minutes. He did a nice job and now I can use my drive way.

We all know who is really ripping us off any way if your a home owner and have a tax bill.


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## nightnurse613 (Dec 14, 2007)

Additionally, any accident that you had while cleaning the windows would result in a hospital visit. The good news is that would have been a deductible medical expense which your window washing isn't (unless it's a rental property)??


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## chrisnwillie (Dec 14, 2007)

I have been in the window cleaning business for 37 years, doing both commercial and residential. That price was not out of line. First off, window cleaning is a luxury, not a must. Second, window cleaning has the second highest (currently) insurance rates.....I pay approximately 50G a year in insurance and I have never had an accident. 

People have the impression that window cleaning is not as skilled as other services. We're looked upon as janitors of sort. We have much more intense laws to abide by in all states, much more training required, and the second highest probability of accidents of all trades. 

OK, I'll get off my soap box now.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 14, 2007)

I do want to clarify that there is a BIG difference between a window cleaner that teeters off the side of a HIGH-rise building and someone who cleans private homes. High-rise window cleaning is very dangerous work and deserves to be well paid....but not $275 per hour (IMHO).

 When you live in an expensive house and have people visit you to give a quote for a service or product, you get used to people trying to “Stick it to the Man” and yes, I am “The Man” in this case.

  If there is a particular item, product, or service, I will gladly pay top dollar for it. For example, I spent over $3,000 to have my garage floor custom painted to a showroom floor look like in the auto dealerships and spend another $7,000 for some nice butcher block cabinets. It is very nice and I always smile when I enter my garage. 

  I even bought an original 1928 Ub Iwerks drawing of Steamboat Willie for a few grand.

  When I ordered custom imported Columbian mahogany cabinets and high-quality granite for the six bathrooms and kitchen, I knew I was going to pay over 6 figures, but the effect is awesome and the expense was worth it to me.

  When I have an air conditioning service call every 3 months to service the three air conditioners and change the 17 different filters scattered around the house, I don’t balk and it takes him a few hours to do the job and we use the air conditioner 24/7.

  But something really annoyed me at paying a window washer $275 per hour to clean the outside windows of my house. I am not bitter or angry, I just felt cheated and I want to avoid this happening to me again, just like TUGers want to avoid overpaying for a timeshare.

  If the window washers only charged me $200 total ($100 per man hour) which represents the highest rate I have seen charged by the online window washer blogs, I would probably ask them to come visit every 3 months. But now, I will look elsewhere and drive a hard bargain.

  All of my neighbors are surprised that I actually clean my own pool. Why? I actually enjoy it, I have a Chemistry major (and like balancing the pH), and I only need to add acid as I have an automatic salt water chlorinator. Thus, the 15 minutes cleaning the filter every 2 weeks and brushing the pool is relaxing and saves me $100 per month. Gee add another $20k and I can pay my real estate taxes this year.


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## jlwquilter (Dec 14, 2007)

*Value*

I think all of this once again boils down to value. If you feel you didn't value the end result vs. the cost, then you feel you overpaid. If you did value to end result vs. the cost, then you are happy.

Whether it's cars, timeshares, garage floors, or window washing, it comes down to value. And that's a highly personal judgement call - as demonstrated by this thread and many others on other topics (like said cars, timeshares, etc.).

This was a bad value *for* Steamboat and he's going to get better value next time...by doing it himself, bargaining for a lower cost, etc. It was a learning experience.... so learn and move on.


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## Sydney (Dec 14, 2007)

Can I pay you $275 an hr to quit whinging about maintenance of your $2million  house with the 75 windows and 6 bathrooms with granite, etc, etc?


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## lawren2 (Dec 14, 2007)

Do you have even the slighest idea how obnoxious this thread is? Tres parvenu. 

What has happened to the old money style of our parents and grandparents where if you had it you certainly didn't need to flaunt it.


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## chrisnwillie (Dec 15, 2007)

Again, as being a WINDOW CLEANER not WINDOW WASHER, for 37+ years, frankly, I find most of this discussion typical of people who don't understand that standing on a 40ft ladder is dangerous when not holding on, b/c you have a wonderwand in one hand and a squeegee in another.....

Hey, if you don't want to pay b/c you feel it's too much money, clean them yourselves. If you want us up on the side of your 1 million dollar home, with special protection on the ends of our ladder so we don't damage your siding, then hire us, but you'll pay our rates. Replacement equipment, compensation insurance, liability insurance costs big bucks. 

Or, hire a part time fireman with no insurance, and when he damages your windows, home, or falls, you take the responsibility.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

*Whos deserves more payment a surgeon or window cleaner?*

Just for fun I decided to look up what a Florida doctor gets paid to perform an Appendectomy to save someone’s life.

  First, look up the proper CPT code which is 44950

http://www.acgme.org/residentdatacollection/documentation/Codelist/060cpticd9area.pdf

  Second, go to Florida Medicare’s web site and look up the payment amount they approve for CPT 44950 which is $542.08

http://www.floridamedicare.com/Part_B/Fee_Schedules/115929.pdf

  Now let me fill in some background info on this.

  Medicare approves $542.08 as payment for this surgery to the physician but will only pay 80% of that approved fee and the physician must fill out all the proper forms and wait about 60 days to get paid a grand total of $433.66 from Medicare and then bill the secondary insurance (if they have any) the balance of $108.41 and if the patient is on Medicaid, guess what…they will get nothing more.

  Therefore, why would I tell my kids to go to college for 4 years, go to medical school for 4 years, and then become a surgeon (add another 2-4 years residency) and possibly make only $433.66 to save someone’s life by performing an emergency appendectomy when they can make $275 per hour cleaning windows?

  Now everyone should have a clear idea why I retired (quit) practicing medicine at 39yo. Don’t get me started with a discussion on paying malpractice insurance vs the insurance a window cleaner (washer) pays.

------------------------  

FYI - I posted this thread to see what TUGers thought about my personal experience with window cleaners and figured 100% of TUGers would think these rates were excessively high, but I am 100% surprised that so many people think paying $275 per hour per person to wash windows is acceptable. 

What do you think a surgeon should get paid to save a life? Is $433.66 too much or too little?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

Sydney said:


> Can I pay you $275 an hr to quit whinging about maintenance of your $2million  house with the 75 windows and 6 bathrooms with granite, etc, etc?



ok...deal...I accept paypal...send me a PM with your account and I will stop posting to this thread.

I have not complained about any maintenance expense other than window cleaning, which I think is excessive compared to all my other expenses.

I am just surprised that more people are not going into this line of business as it is obviously incredibly lucrative.


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## chrisnwillie (Dec 15, 2007)

And obviously a lot more dangerous than taking someone's appendix out.


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## nancy10 (Dec 15, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Therefore, why would I tell my kids to go to college for 4 years, go to medical school for 4 years, and then become a surgeon (add another 2-4 years residency) and possibly make only $433.66 to save someone’s life by performing an emergency appendectomy when they can make $275 per hour cleaning windows?



Because they could then join internet BBS and discussion groups and interject their education, income, house size and value into any discussion so that perfect strangers are constantly reminded.:hysterical:


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## Fern Modena (Dec 15, 2007)

Steamboat,
I guess you really don't realize it, but it seems that every time you talk about your house or things it becomes distasteful to many of us.  Nobody begrudges people the things they work for; its the way you appear to flaunt it that bothers us.

Its not just this post.  There was the occasion when you talked about house taxes, and there were other things.  

Many of us do not have the "things" you have, although I am sure some do.  Incessantly mentioning it is what makes us uncomfortable.

Fern


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## The Conch Man (Dec 15, 2007)

_*Gee Steam, give it a rest & I thought I was bad!*_     :hysterical:


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## 3kids4me (Dec 15, 2007)

Bill,

1.  You are a podiatrist, not a medical doctor.

2.  Remember Disboards?  

3.  What Conch said.

Sharon


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## JoeWilly (Dec 15, 2007)

Wow, I am amazed at this thread.  I thought Tuggers, who I thought were generally frugal, would think it's expensive too. 

Bill, I'm with you on this one.  I think it's expensive for an hour's work for two people for window washing.

I wonder if Tuggers might think it's expensive if someone other than Bill, a doctor, started this thread.  I just can't help but think because he's a doctor and it sounds like he has a very comfortable lifestyle, perhaps that has clouded Tuggers perception in this case.


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## geoand (Dec 15, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Do you also pay $275 per person / per hour?


They cleaned both sides of windows.  Some of the windows in house, they had to use step ladder that was higher than I could reach up (I'm 6 ft tall).  That height on ladder bothers me as well.  They also cleaned the gutters to the home while standing on the roof.  I am happy to say that I have never been on the roof of my house.  My bill was $675.00 which included 2 repairs to leaky gutters.  The 2 of them were here for about an hour.

I was glad to pay them for a service I was and not able to do for myself.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

JoeWilly said:


> Wow, I am amazed at this thread.  I thought Tuggers, who I thought were generally frugal, would think it's expensive too.
> 
> Bill, I'm with you on this one.  I think it's expensive for an hour's work for two people for window washing.
> 
> I wonder if Tuggers might think it's expensive if someone other than Bill, a doctor, started this thread.  I just can't help but think because he's a doctor and it sounds like he has a very comfortable lifestyle, perhaps that has clouded Tuggers perception in this case.



Thanks Joe...my point is if I thought it was expensive to me, then it must be OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive to someone who makes considerably less than I do.

Besides, I made 90% of my current net worth from developing educational software, not medicine. I sold my medical practice when I realized I could make MUCH more money in the software development business.

It took a lot of courage to quite a successful medical practice after spending 10 years (4 college + 4 med school + 2 residency), but I realized I could be better off with a change of careers.

When I learned a window cleaner can make $275 per hour, a light bulb went off in my head as I NEVER expected this profession to make that much money.

Obviously TUGers are comfortable paying those rates and I think people should share the secret that this type of business is very worthwhile.

I actually have developed a tremendous RESPECT for the window washing profession as 48 hours ago, I had no idea they were able to generate so much money cleaning windows.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

chrisnwillie said:


> And obviously a lot more dangerous than taking someone's appendix out.



But not as dangerous as our military personnel working in Iraq or a police office in South Central LA.

So am I to assume that you think a window cleaner should be paid better than a surgeon?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Steamboat,
> I guess you really don't realize it, but it seems that every time you talk about your house or things it becomes distasteful to many of us.



How much do you pay to clean your windows?

Simple suggestion:

1. Don't read my posts


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## easyrider (Dec 15, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Steamboat,
> I guess you really don't realize it, but it seems that every time you talk about your house or things it becomes distasteful to many of us.  Nobody begrudges people the things they work for; its the way you appear to flaunt it that bothers us.
> 
> Its not just this post.  There was the occasion when you talked about house taxes, and there were other things.
> ...



It makes me wonder if Steamboat is full of caca when he complains about chump change. Any one could post that they have a big house and have lots of money but most wealthy people I know wouldn't blink an eye at $550.00 to have clean windows if they wanted clean windows, even the people that grew up in the depression. 

We would probably all complain if we were surprised with a bill or not satisfied with a product like Steamboat is with his windows.


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## Fern Modena (Dec 15, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> How much do you pay to clean your windows?



I C Clearly, a man and wife team, does them for about $100.  That's outside only, one story, and less than 20 windows.



> Simple suggestion:
> 
> 1. Don't read my posts



But it gives me such pleasure 

Fern


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 15, 2007)

I have no issue with Bill's success in life, I'm sure he worked his tail off along the way. And dealing with other people's smelly feet all day can be really fun I imagine    (no insult Bill).

But, by working in an apparently lucrative position, they will not pay medicare rates if they need their appendix removed. They may even make enough to have health insurance. The uninsured are charged the highest rates for such things.

During many years of business and technology consulting, I always charged non-profits and small businesses less than my Fortune 500 and Wall Street clients. One charges what the market will handle as a capitalist. And the wealthy Wall Street types were always the most difficult people to deal with. I used to joke that the rate was a function of the BS levels. Does not apply here (I like Bill) but I'm sure some of the nouveau rich of SE Florida must be hell to deal with as customers.


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## vivalour (Dec 15, 2007)

*A possible "feel good" solution*

Bill, I have an idea that coincides with the season:

1. Enjoy the challenge and savings of washing your own windows.
2. Make out a phantom invoice at your own professional hourly rate
3. Pay yourself in trust, or

Option A
4. Donate the money to a shelter or family charity
5. Get tax receipt, or

Option B
4. start a foundation that you can fund in this way every year
5. get tax receipts, or

Option C
6. demonstrate what charity means to your kids by starting a family sideline of window washing for elderly homeowners and asking them to pay whatever they can afford
7. give proceeds to charity of your kids' choice
8. get tax receipts


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## riverside (Dec 15, 2007)

Wow, Add me to your small list of people that think that amount is outrageous.  If anyone charged more than $100 to do that job where I live people would have a cow.


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## carl2591 (Dec 15, 2007)

*Window washing and other small business items.*

one thing to remember about the "time on the Job" thing is how long did it take them to drive to your house.. 

I can tell you in my carpet cleaning business we sometime have a 30 or so min drive from one appt to the next and I am trying to stay in the same area of the city.. Raleigh nc... depending on when you want service and where the other appt is located you can spend a hr or more just in driving. I figure that in my pricing cause a full size van getting 12-13 MPG get thirsty all the time..

if you are happy with the job, it should not matter if it takes them one hr or 3 hrs if you agreed with the price before they started then you can not complain..

In my carpet cleaning company we make sure the client is aware of full price before we start any cleaning and they sign the invoice giving us the approval to proceed.. I have some jobs that take 3 hrs and only get 300 dollars for and some jobs we get $600 for and do in 2 hrs. it depends on what we are doing.

just my 2.5.1 cent worth
last year is was at 2.5 cents and had to raise prices to keep up with fuel cost
anywho happy holidays to all


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## bobcat (Dec 15, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Thanks Joe...my point is if I thought it was expensive to me, then it must be OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive to someone who makes considerably less than I do.
> 
> Besides, I made 90% of my current net worth from developing educational software, not medicine. I sold my medical practice when I realized I could make MUCH more money in the software development business.
> 
> ...



BILL< You worked hard to earn it. Enjoy it.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 15, 2007)

More info:

  My wife set-up the original appointment and would have paid the bill, except they showed up when my wife had to attend a very important meeting with her manicurist (and I have no idea how much they charge :ignore, thus I got stuck with the responsibility of giving them a check as I was in my home office working on the computer. Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but when I saw the amount I was charged for 2 man hours of work, I was surprised.

  Perhaps the workers jacked up the bill as they figured they could pull a fast one over my wife or they felt that we “could afford to pay”, who knows and who really cares. I gave them a check and thanked them. It was only after they left when I was entering the check into the check register, did I begin to think that I was overcharged.

  I have actually discussed this bill with several of my “rich Boca friends” and all of them say I was ripped-off and should have negotiated a rate BEFORE they arrived. I reminded them that my wife set up the appointment and that led to another discussion about them amount of money all of our wives spend, but I won’t post those details here.

  Easysider is 100% wrong about wealthy people’s attitude towards spending $550 on window cleaning that only takes 2 man hours to perform. Wealthy people who are self-made (not trust funds or inheritances) put tremendous importance on spending wisely. Wealthy people HATE to waste money or get ripped off. Also, people that grew up in the depression are the MOST conservative people I have every met in terms of spending money.

  Thanks for ideas on donations, but we already support many charities and donate much more than what we spend on window cleaning. I also accounted for drive-time in one of my posts (added 30 minutes) which will get anyone from Miami or WPB to my house. Additionally, I was never given a pre-quote for the job…my wife's bad. 

  However, I am turning lemons into lemonade as I had a lengthy talk with my wife on appropriate spending behaviors. I have never micromanaged what she can buy or spend money on, I just wanted her to be a little more careful when it comes to getting quotes for things involving the house.

  Let me summarize my thoughts again….I was surprised that a window cleaner can charge $275 per man hour to clean the outside windows of a residential home. If this is the "going rate" so be it and more power to them, I however, will boycott their services until rates get lower.


  This is a classic imbalance in the “supply vs demand” and I would expect to see future window cleaning rates PLUMMET if more low paid laborers (such as landscapers, janitors, fast food workers) find out how much can be made in this profession.

Things could be worse, I could have been hit with an $85,000 cell phone bill
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071214/od_nm/phonebill1_dc;_ylt=AoOul2IoTjv0NehYuesWTPWs0NUE


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## easyrider (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi Bill
You would of paid something to have the work done. Instead of $550 lets say you paid $400 which may be what your friends paid. Is the $150 extra an over charge amount or profit ? The $150 amounts to less than $2 a window when you factor in house cleaning. To me thats chump change. Dont loose any sleep over it anyway.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 16, 2007)

easysider said:


> Hi Bill
> You would of paid something to have the work done. Instead of $550 lets say you paid $400 which may be what your friends paid. Is the $150 extra an over charge amount or profit ? The $150 amounts to less than $2 a window when you factor in house cleaning. To me thats chump change. Dont loose any sleep over it anyway.



Thanks for the advice....I sleep fine (even better after a few martinis at the holiday parties over the weekend).

My real issue with this type of "luxury service" is that I should always ask for an hourly rate for jobs like this, before they are done and avoid things like a charge per window as there is too much variability in how I can get charged. 

Nobody has commented about my comparison the rates to clean (1) single 6' x 10' window vs a series of (60) 1' x 1' windows or (15) 2' x 2' windows that occupy the same square footage as a 6' x 10' single window.

As I have posted before, my landscaper charges me $30 per man hour to do extra things like putting up Christmas lights or planting annuals around the house as these are not included in my monthly lawn service.

I have even posted several links to professional window cleaners that profess to make about $50 per hour....Based upon these rates, I should have ONLY paid about $100 for the entire job, not $550.

Additionally, I even posted a job listing in Malibu that needed window cleaners and were paying $10 per hour. Thus, if I lived in Mailbu, one of the MOST expensive neighborhoods in the USA, the labor costs to clean my house would have only been $20...where did the other $530 go to?

Thus, it is my current opinion, that I was overcharged and probably  ripped-off. No matter if I think $550 is chump-change or not, I feel that I was cheated. As the old saying goes --- fool me once - shame on you ... fool me twice - shame on me or as President Bush said..."can't get fooled again"

If TUGers want to ignore my advice or opinions...that is fine. But consider yourself warned!


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## Fern Modena (Dec 16, 2007)

You bring up an interesting point, about getting an hourly rate next time, and about your gardeners charging an hourly rate to do other tasks for you.  

Around here most people (not businesses, but homeowners) seem to pay for things "by the job" rather than by the hour.  We've had quite a bit of work done here in the past few years, landscaping, excavating, building a pool, building walls, cleaning carpets, getting custom cabinets and garage shelves (two different projects) and more.  Each of these items was priced as a "job," not by hourly rate.  The landscaper gave us a breakdown showing the cost of the items he was using and then one fee for labor.  The workers came back several times for the one fee.  Our housecleaning crew also charges a flat rate, regardless of how long they stay and how many workers come to do the cleaning.  

Is it different in Florida or elsewhere?  I'm curious.

Fern


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 16, 2007)

I count 36 windows in this example

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ev=/images?q=window&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=G

If a Window washer charges $4 per window (educated guess), does the homeowner have to pay 36 x 4 = $144 to clean this area?

Here is one single window that is about the same size as the other one, but the homeowner would get a bargain if only charged $4

http://livingindryden.org/images/home/emptyWindow06042005B.jpg

This homeowner would go into DEBT just to have their windows cleaned by a professional

http://www.acadiawindows.com/picts/HomeWindow-exp.jpg


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## irish (Dec 16, 2007)

if i had to pay that much to have my windows cleaned, i would RUN to home depot and get myself a power washer and do it myself next time. cheaper in the long run...


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## bobcat (Dec 16, 2007)

irish said:


> if i had to pay that much to have my windows cleaned, i would RUN to home depot and get myself a power washer and do it myself next time. cheaper in the long run...



Bill, you started an interesting thread. I wonder how long it will be.??? This is better then watching T V.


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## Kay H (Dec 16, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> More info:
> 
> I reminded them that my wife set up the appointment and that led to another discussion about them amount of money all of our wives spend, but I won’t post those details here.




Thank goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 16, 2007)

bobcat said:


> Bill, you started an interesting thread. I wonder how long it will be.??? This is better then watching T V.



Thanks! I am glad you like it...Here are some more goodies. Make sure to click on the links as there is great information here. Too bad I was not as well informed on this subject BEFORE they worked on my house or I would have filmed them and put it up on YouTube.

 I decided to do a little online research for Window cleaning/washing information via Google.

  When I Google “Window Washing Rates”, this TUG thread is already on Page 1…wow!

  According to www.johnnycleanwindows.com, “The national average window cleaning rate is about $45-$50 per hour”…gee that really made me feel great!

  According to Streak Free Profits, it’s “Extremely Profitable -Window cleaners average $40 to $100 per hour.” http://streakfreeprofits.com – can I hire them?

  Alba’s house cleaning charges $8-12 per outside window (ouch!...I won’t be calling them) http://www.fcc.net/premier/alba/house-cleaning-rates.htm

  The Illinois State approved rate for a window washer is $15.60 per hour and $16.10 per hour for the supervisor. http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/rates/otherR/WW/WW.htm

  A All City Unlimited charges $30 per person per hour (4 hour minimum) this is pretty reasonable. I wonder what they would do with the 3 extra hours at my house?
http://www.aallcityunlimited.com/index.php?cat=window&func=rates

  There is an excellent Wikipedia article on Window Cleaners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_cleaner

  This is an Awesome Window Cleaning Manual by The Window Cleaning Company
  Complete how to instructions are included
  Residential price for “Big two story $ 75.00 to $95.00”
http://www.dcs1.com/window

  This web site is a classic – they claim you can start with under $100, claim that’s it’s EASY work, and that you make 95% of your income CASH! (i.e. no taxes).
  Here is an interesting Q&A on their site
  Q:  I'm not sure I can wash windows.  Is it hard to do?
A:  If you can do these three things you can wash windows...  1  Push a broom.   2  Wash dishes  3  Comb your hair.  Window cleaning is super easy when you know the proper way. 
http://www.windowcash.com/

  Here is a great YouTube video on “Pricing your Window Cleaning Jobs”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbCzlBFVOTU

  Funny Window cleaning cartoon video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCFFAmFKP_g


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## easyrider (Dec 16, 2007)

You realize that its more than just deciding to start a business to be successful at that business and actually stay in business. I think most businesses like window washing probably fail and only the ones that charge enough or do real volume have any chance at being successful. Maybe you should call your window guy and ask why they overcharged you since you arent going to use them anymore. 

My wife thinks I would be surprised at some of the things she pays and says thats why she is in charge of paying our bills. She wont even let me shop with her anymore. Now I wonder what she means (surprised) as she just left to the mall.


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## caribbeansun (Dec 17, 2007)

No it's not different.  Usually it's just the customer that's different.  The work I do is priced by the job and I believe in value pricing.  Which means that the value that it delivered does not necessarily reflect the time it takes to complete the job.

Pricing is a function of risk and who assumes the risk.  If I give you a fixed price I am assuming the risk that things may not go as planned, that the situation is not exactly as the customer has told me and that any unknowns are my problem to deal with.  Because I am assuming risk I am entitled to be compensated for that - classic risk/return trade off.

For customers that want pricing by the hour they are prepared to assume the risk that things will work out all right, that the job will take the same length of time as estimated, that everything is as assumed and that they are happy to pay me a greater amount the more inefficient that I am.

I'm happy to work for either one.  I am not willing to reduce my price in a fixed fee scenario because I'm efficient.  The customer that agrees to pay a fixed fee and then only after the job is done wants to go to the price per hour is a former customer and doesn't understand risk/reward.  They want me to assume all the risk and they want all the reward.  Well the world doesn't work like that and I don't work for people like that.  If you, your DW, your DH or your employee agree to a fixed fee arrangement you should get out your chequebook and pay what was agreed upon, stop being a whinging pom and pay by the hour next time.  Just don't expect to pay less...




Fern Modena said:


> Is it different in Florida or elsewhere?  I'm curious.
> 
> Fern


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 17, 2007)

There are many newspaper articles and television reports of "little old ladies" getting ripped off by workers in South Florida.

Imagine if two guys charged some sweet old lady $550 for 1 hour of cleaning the outside windows of her home that has 75 windows...people would freak out. The media would be called and some local lawyer would probably offer to help her for free to get her money back.

It is funny that the same people who would be reporting this company to the BBB for "price gouging" are the same people that will tell someone (like me) who lives in a multi-million dollar home to simply pay those same rates.

This topic is incredibly fascinating to me and I don't know why. Perhaps I am fascinated at the attitude of how we treat people differently (based upon their perceived net worth) or  the tremendous imbalance in  different services like  landscapers vs window washers, etc. 

I am not a "blue blood trust fund baby that inherited a ton of money"...I earned it and my previous house (before 2005) was purchased for about $350k and I never got ripped off there as I lived in a very modest neighborhood (by Boca Raton standards). When I moved to this new house, I kinda felt a little like "Jed Clampett" when he moved to Beverley Hills and saw all the strange things happening to wealthy people. I am still NOT used to living here.

I love learning new things and I never knew that a window washer should actually be referred to as a "window cleaner" and that they can charge so much money to clean windows. I never knew that there is a proper technique to cleaning windows. I never knew that TUGers would complain about getting ripped off by Marriott, but think paying a window cleaner $275 per hour is acceptable. 

In a strange kind of way, I am actually looking forward to buying some window cleaning supplies and learning how to clean my own windows. I am, after all, the ONLY person in my neighborhood that cleans his own pool, so perhaps I will also enjoy cleaning windows. Perhaps I need to see a shrink!

I was in McDonalds this morning and saw this guy wearing a McDonalds uniform cleaning the windows. He had very poor technique as he used a typical up/down stroke and took three strokes per window and left some streaking vs using a much more creative "professional curvilinear-S stroke" that leaves windows streak free. I found it incredibly ironic that there was a large sign on the inside of one of the windows that was advertising full-time positions for employment for about $9 per hour. I actually thought about engaging this gentleman in some conversation, but I chickened out. Perhaps I will see him again in the future...should I really approach him?..what should I say that he won't be insulted?..I am sure he is not earning $275 per hour and would be shocked at the price I already paid.

I hope people don't think that I am not being sincere in my desire to learn about this business and my desire to try to understand the dynamics of pricing for this service. I have nothing against good old fashioned hard work and people trying to achieve the American dream of becoming independently wealthy and working in a job they enjoy. If window cleaners can earn $275 per hour...MORE power to them!

I know for sure, that when my kid becomes a teenager and wants to earn some extra spending money, I will tell them to learn how to clean windows, rather than getting a more traditional job like working at the mall, delivering newspapers, or working in a restaurant. I would not encourage them to work on high-rise buildings, they can simply focus on my neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods and attempt to monopolize the market on residential window cleaning. Perhaps they could even pay their own way for college and even buy a new sports car with their extra money.

I would be a proud dad and brag to all my friends if my kids could earn $275 per hour cleaning windows!


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## Elan (Dec 17, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> No it's not different.  Usually it's just the customer that's different.  The work I do is priced by the job and I believe in value pricing.  Which means that the value that it delivered does not necessarily reflect the time it takes to complete the job.
> 
> Pricing is a function of risk and who assumes the risk.  If I give you a fixed price I am assuming the risk that things may not go as planned, that the situation is not exactly as the customer has told me and that any unknowns are my problem to deal with.  Because I am assuming risk I am entitled to be compensated for that - classic risk/return trade off.
> 
> ...



  Just curious here....not trying to be contentious at all.  But in your situation, would you be willing to do a fixed price estimate, but itemize the job to detail out an hourly labor rate?   I've asked for this on estimates before, but never actually received it.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 17, 2007)

Htoo0 said:


> Next time you have your shingles replaced (assuming you have shingles) get back to us with the hourly rate that costs you.



I don't have shingles, but I do have an interesting story. 

Six months after I moved into my "new" home, hurricane Wilma hit South Florida and I lost about 100 mediterrian barrel tiles due to flying debris (specifically my neighbors 50 foot tree that send 5 pound branched into my house at 120mph). I actually climbed up on the roof and my wife freaked out as I probably would have been killed if I slipped. I even had a dozen in my pool. It took me three days just to clean the debris off my lawn as nobody had electricity for 2 weeks.

I called the roofing company (the phones never went down) a few days later and they said that there are about 1,000 people ahead of me and to call back in 6 months. I was pissed and was afraid of a roof leak into my new home.

The next day I saw a roofer (that was actually from the same company that installed my own roof) working on a neighbors house and I ran home to get several $100 bills. I asked to speak to the boss and asked him to come to my house to give me an estimate...he refused at first. Then I gingerly offered him as easy $200 cash just to evaluate my roof to see if there are any holes that may cause water damage...he agreed to come over later.

At 6pm or so, he arrived and inspected my roof, informed me that I had about 100 broken tiles, and even started to remove a few ones that were about to fall off and hit my car below. He said there was no holes in the tar layer or roof below. I was happy and asked if he could repair the roof as it was "well known" that there were ZERO roof tiles to be purchased anywhere in South Florida. He refused at first and I sheepishly asked again how much (cash money) it would take to fix the problem ASAP. He said $2,000 and he could do it that weekend....I said DEAL!

Well at about 8am that weekend a truck pulled up with 6 or 8 workers and they had the EXACT same blend of tile as my house (I never asked for a receipt or how they acquired those tiles) and repaired the roof in about 3 or 4 hours. I was INCREDIBLY HAPPY and took his cell phone number and began to share it with my family and friends. He booked several more "SIDE" jobs that probably earned himself a ton of extra money.

As I said before, I am happy to pay any rate for something I thing is valuable or necessary. For the next year or two, there were many homes covered with a blue tarp, but my home looked as good as new.

I never filed an insurance claim as I have a $40,000 deductible!


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## easyrider (Dec 17, 2007)

So your allright with overpaying a roofer for a dozen tiles that he probally stole from his employer, and then installed them with his employers crew and equipment on the weekend. So allright with it that you would refer them to your friends for additional side jobs and not go through the company. This sucks. I hope your roof leaks and you get nasty mold.

Why are you complaining about a legitimate company doing legitamate business ?

Your bad Bill


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 17, 2007)

easysider said:


> So your allright with overpaying a roofer for a dozen tiles that he probally stole from his employer, and then installed them with his employers crew and equipment on the weekend. So allright with it that you would refer them to your friends for additional side jobs and not go through the company. This sucks. I hope your roof leaks and you get nasty mold.
> 
> Why are you complaining about a legitimate company doing legitamate business ?
> 
> Your bad Bill



Actually, I did NOT overpay as that rate included the 100 tiles and labor. I estimated there were about 15 man hours spent on the job. Roof tiles usually sell for about $5 each, thus I was paying about $100 per man hour. Additionally, there were thousands of homes that needed roof work and lots of non-professionals were attempting to do sub-standard work on homes.

I did not ask where he got the tiles and glue/nails, I assumed he legally paid for them and was extremely grateful that they even showed up as there was no electricity in South Florida for about 2 weeks. Do you always ask for receipts for supplies from workers? Should I have also asked the window washers for evidence that they legally paid for their soap and brushes? Every year I get my lawn fertilized and I plant annuals, I never see a receipt from the gardener as I assume he bought them from a supplier.

The workers showed up in his own personal non-company truck on the weekend and wore street clothes. They were extremely organized and I brought them food and drinks and tipped every worker myself. This was a perfect "quid pro quo" situation if I have ever seen one. Remember I tried to call several roofing companies and every one told me that they had a 6 month to 1 year waiting list already.

Thanks for your concern for my roof...it has been fine ever since they fixed it...awesome job! I hope that no natural disaster hits your home so you are not faced with the same problem I faced.

One important lesson, cash is king during a natural disaster.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 17, 2007)

JimJ said:


> Reminds me of the lady that had her appendix out and got a bill for $2,000 from the doctor.  She thought it was high and asked for an itemized bill.
> 
> The doctor replied:
> Removing appendix - $100.
> Knowing where to cut - $1,900.



First of all doctors don't get $2,000 to remove an appendix.

Florida Medicare will approve $542.08
BCBS usually pays 80% Medicare rates or $433.66
Aetan HMO usually pays 60% of Medicare rates or $325.24

Does anyone else besides me think it is strange that in my situation a window cleaner made more money per hour than a surgeon saving someone's life performing an appendectomy?

It generally takes 1 hour to do the surgery, but surgeon's just don't walk into the OR and start cutting as there are pre-op preparations to make. In addition, there is a follow-up in the hospital, post-op orders, post op dictation, and follow-up in the office. 

I would estimate about 3 hours of work (conservative estimate) to manage the patient pre-op, surgery, and post-op, thus the surgeon get paid $180 per hour (medicare) and still has to pay overhead expenses of at least 50% (malpractice insurance, etc).

According to Medicare, the surgeon must also follow the patient in their office for no extra payments for about 90 days depending on the procedure. The surgeon can't even charge for removing the sutures or if the patient calls at 3am to say they are still in pain or got their dressing wet.

It would have been nice if the window cleaners stopped by my house a week later just to make sure the windows were still clean.

----------------------

Anyway, I don't want to start a tangent discussion on surgeons or roofers, I would like to continue this discussion on window cleaners as I am very fascinated with this topic.

If you want to start a thread on how doctors are ripping off patients by getting paid $540 to save a life, start a new thread.


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## The Conch Man (Dec 17, 2007)

_*How's this for a definition of a "Window Cleaner" Steam -*_

_*Most of them window cleaners are probably dropout's from High School with no education, hard lives from the past & living in a very nice home with new cars & such other comforts & benefits of making big money for them & their families.*_

_*They have figured it out that this isn't a bad income plus their boss is probably making most of the money anyways unless that working window washer owns the business which makes him a rich person in your eyes. Can you imagine someone on this forum reading all of this & just sitting back laughing at all of us! "ROFLMAO" ~*_ :hysterical:


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## easyrider (Dec 17, 2007)

Bill
I hope you feel the same way when your soft ware is pirated and sold for below your cost.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 17, 2007)

I am writing a new book (I will even offer a free downloadable e-book) and here is the opening sentence of _*Zen and the Art of Window Washing by Steamboat Bill*_ – “There is something very beautiful, dare I say artistic, even magical, when a talented window cleaner applies a soapy brush with rhythmic circles to a large plate glass and then deftly manipulates the squeegee across the glass like a musical conductor that leaves a streak free shine. That, my friends is truly a beautiful sight to behold.”   

No, I have not been hit on the head after falling off a ladder. I watched several window cleaning videos on YouTube and (ignoring the prices I was charged) actually enjoyed the videos. So I compiled some of the best YouTube videos for your viewing enjoyment.

  This is a VERY funny video that just happens to feature a window cleaner (ladies will really LOVE this video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrAbNfoLZTk

  Real Stories – window washer scam – Making $288,888 per year CASH (tax-free). I am not sure if this is real or a joke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CVco2G6pys

  Cleaning the windows at the World’s tallest residential building. These guys are” true PROFESSIONALS” and deserve to be paid well. Also, the music on this video is awesome…I will be singing it all day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNUWyoo3pkY

  World’s fastest window cleaner at the IWCA 2007 convention.  Impressive skills. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKC23-I4pBc

Extreme window cleaning – very strange. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiVLdKuEYg

  Window cleaning pranks – this MUST be a really clean window. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_odpvfwiDsM

  Brave window cleaners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_U6XQW3gzQ

  Hi-rise Window cleaning accident (this is scary). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-xEn8zNsXc

  Starting a “residential window cleaning business” – based in Gainesville, Florida http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGmEHiCXIe8


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## Htoo0 (Dec 17, 2007)

See, if you had just kept your windows clean, then your wife wouldn't have needed to call someone and you wouldn't have been over-charged. Of course then you wouldn't have had a reason to open this thread so I guess it all worked out for the best.


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## caribbeansun (Dec 18, 2007)

I don't normally talk about hours.  I'd say about 95% of what I do is on a fixed price basis.  If it's something I have absolutely no idea on how long it will take I'll quote an hourly rate.  I have a good idea of what I want to net so I work it that way and consider risks etc as explained earlier.  

In pricing I consider many factors - ability to pay, is the person spending someone else's money, how quickly it needs to be done,  will the job be interesting or enjoyable, is the customer somebody I can work with, how much other work I have on the go at the time, etc.



Elan said:


> Just curious here....not trying to be contentious at all.  But in your situation, would you be willing to do a fixed price estimate, but itemize the job to detail out an hourly labor rate?   I've asked for this on estimates before, but never actually received it.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 18, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> In pricing I consider many factors - ability to pay



Charging someone MORE money (for the same work) just because they have the ability to pay is TERRIBLE in my opinion. This is a very "Socialist" statement and I would guess that Robin Hood is probably your favorite movie. Do you also charge different rates for people of different color? Do you jack up the price if you are dealing with a woman or some who speaks with an accent? Where is 60 minutes when you need them?

Not that I will get any sympathy on this board, nor do I think 60 minutes will ever investigate "gouging rich people" but this "confirms my observations" after I moved into an expensive home (and getting treated differently) that proves to me that people in the service sector are looking to take advantage of a "Deep Pocket" and are no better than an Ambulance chasing attorney.

I am glad I started this thread as it indicates a "sock it to the wealthy stereotype" and reminds me that I need to "negotiate everything" before a job is performed and hopefully get a quote before anyone arrives.

Ultimately, it will come down to what am I willing to pay for a service and I can tell you, for sure, window cleaners are overpaid in my neighborhood.

Even thought I was charged $275 per man hour, I don't think this is a sustainable rate and I am warning my friends to be on the lookout. If the landscaping industry and farming industry are any indicators, I would expect to see a huge and dramatic lowering of the cost to clean windows once the "undocumented workers" find out how much can be made cleaning windows.

I never thought "Caveat emptor" would apply to window cleaning.


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 18, 2007)

Bill,

Is that a cat in your shorts?

Sorry, couldn't resist....

Someday, you will be famous for inspiring a new generation of window washers. I even took all the ice off my car's windows this morning in your honor.

John


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## vivalour (Dec 18, 2007)

*Let them eat cake?*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Charging someone MORE money (for the same work) just because they have the ability to pay is TERRIBLE in my opinion. This is a very "Socialist" statement and I would guess that Robin Hood is probably your favorite movie. Do you also charge different rates for people of different color? Do you jack up the price if you are dealing with a woman or some who speaks with an accent? Where is 60 minutes when you need them?
> 
> Not that I will get any sympathy on this board, nor do I think 60 minutes will ever investigate "gouging rich people" but this "confirms my observations" after I moved into an expensive home (and getting treated differently) that proves to me that people in the service sector are looking to take advantage of a "Deep Pocket" and are no better than an Ambulance chasing attorney.



Guess what -- most gov'ts do exactly the same thing!  I don't know about your tax system, but this is exactly the principle behind ours.  (Of course you'll say it's socialist.) Seems totally logical if you ask me. You live in a land of equal opportunity and free enterprise, so everyone should have the chance to be an entrepreneur and gouge his/her neighbor. But politics are not allowed here so I'd better watch my words....


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## Wonka (Dec 18, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Charging someone MORE money (for the same work) just because they have the ability to pay is TERRIBLE in my opinion. This is a very "Socialist" statement and I would guess that Robin Hood is probably your favorite movie. Do you also charge different rates for people of different color? Do you jack up the price if you are dealing with a woman or some who speaks with an accent? Where is 60 minutes when you need them?
> 
> Not that I will get any sympathy on this board, nor do I think 60 minutes will ever investigate "gouging rich people" but this "confirms my observations" after I moved into an expensive home (and getting treated differently) that proves to me that people in the service sector are looking to take advantage of a "Deep Pocket" and are no better than an Ambulance chasing attorney.
> 
> ...



I agree everyone should be charged the same price for the same service, or product.  But, that's not the real world.  Predatory businesses take advantage of those least able to afford higher prices.  People here brag about their saavy purchases and exchanges obtained at the expense of others.  

The wealthy have perks and are often treated favorably.   I don't read complaints about that unfair treatment.  Your roof was fixed quickly because you had money and the ability to bribe someone to bring your repair to the top of the list (meaning someone else had to wait).  I'd probably do the same thing (if I could afford it), but that doesn't make it right.  

Should window washers charge more in a wealthy neighborhood?  Of course not.  Should that same neighborhood get preference in an emergency (like roof repairs after a hurricane)?  No, but both often happen because of the wealthy's ability to pay.

I also don't like project pricing unless the details or items are clearly spelled out to help the buyer understand the cost.  However, I probably wouldn't expect hourly pricing on window washing but would ask how many man-hours would be needed.

I'm disappointed that this has evolved to a complaint about those that have being taken advantage of by those that have not.  I suspect the situation is reversed most of the time.


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## caribbeansun (Dec 19, 2007)

Your "socialist" is my capitalist.  

If you can afford to pay more you will be less price resistant than someone that has less hence I should optimize my pricing to extract the greatest share of your wallet that I can.  What can be more capitalist than that?

It's not taking advantage or gouging - it's called discretionary pricing and it's a simple concept and one that's applied all across the service and hospitality industries every single day.

Ability to pay was but one of many different qualitative factors to be considered in arriving at a price.  In your case I suspect you probably display a bit of an attitude, apparently you can pay and likely would be a pain in my butt to deal with - result = really, really big bill not because I'm discriminating against you but because 1) I can, 2) my perception that you will be more grief to deal with than it will be worth to me requires me to charge you more so that my own qualitative profit is restored to it's normal value [price - direct costs - cost of a portion of my life I'll never get back from dealing with a particular customer].  As the third value rises I have to add more to the first to restore equilibrium and 3) I can.

The standard pricing matrix has three options: fast service, high quality service, cheap service - you can have any *two*.  If you want fast, quality service you will pay for it, if you want quality cheap service then you will wait for it, if you want fast, cheap service then you won't get quality, and so on.


You ignore the fact that everyone has the freedom to say "NO, I do not wish to do business with you".  That is the ultimate veto power against perceived inequalities in pricing.

I won't respond to your comments about color or sex as their purpose, I suspect, is to be inflammatory.  If they were meant to be humorous then they really only reflect you own biases and it would be best to not project those onto others.



Steamboat Bill said:


> Charging someone MORE money (for the same work) just because they have the ability to pay is TERRIBLE in my opinion. This is a very "Socialist" statement and I would guess that Robin Hood is probably your favorite movie. Do you also charge different rates for people of different color? Do you jack up the price if you are dealing with a woman or some who speaks with an accent? Where is 60 minutes when you need them?
> 
> Not that I will get any sympathy on this board, nor do I think 60 minutes will ever investigate "gouging rich people" but this "confirms my observations" after I moved into an expensive home (and getting treated differently) that proves to me that people in the service sector are looking to take advantage of a "Deep Pocket" and are no better than an Ambulance chasing attorney.
> 
> ...


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 19, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> I should optimize my pricing to extract the greatest share of your wallet that I can.  What can be more capitalist than that?



 Dude, you are now starting to sound like a silver-tongued Westgate timeshare salesman...what's next a coupon to a buffet with my next window cleaning?


  I am talking about paying *$275.00 per man hour* to get my windows cleaned, this is not a life-or-death issue, but it sure has been entertaining reading everyone’s opinions.

  I am impressed with your posts and your explanation of “discretionary pricing” and would guess you are probably a college graduate, not a typical window cleaner. I am, however, curious if you are a true Québécois and if your avatar is a photo of Hallandale Beach, Florida. I am also curious as to the particular business you are in and your role in the company.

  I take offense at any implications of me having an “attitude” as my wife set up the appointment and simply stuck me with the responsibility of paying the bill. I was, and always am, courteous to guests and workers at my house, including the window cleaners (my online opinions and thoughts have mainly remained online). Besides, how much grief can there be cleaning windows --- they are either clean or they are not.

  I really enjoyed your pricing matrix and have NO PROBLEM paying a “fair price” for a quality and fast service, I just think $275 per man hour for window cleaning a residential home is a RIP-OFF. 

  Do you really think charging $275 per man hour (while the workers were probably only paid $15-20 per hour) is really a fair price?

  You are correct….I do really have the power to say “no” and will exercise it more often, now I simply have to get my wife onto the same program.

  Canada is pretty progressive in terms of equality for people of different color and races, but the US has a poor history of exploitation. There are hundreds of articles on the web about minorities paying more for mortgages, car loans, and credit card fees, etc. but I could not find any link to window cleaning.

Additionally, when I practiced medicine, I charged the same price (and received the same payment) no matter if the patient was a schoolteacher or a billionaire because discretionary pricing in medicine is illegal. I have personally performed surgery on two billionaires and several professional athletes and commented to my staff that the payment was never worth the "pressure" to please these "high-profile" patients.

If "caribbeansun" is able to make $275 per hour performing a service like window cleaning, then you have truly found the American...oops, I mean Canadian...dream!


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## geekette (Dec 19, 2007)

Story Time:

A couple kids want to earn some extra money shovelling snow.  

Kid A stays in his neighborhood because it's convenient, and is able to charge $10/driveway

Kid B thinks that if his Dad can drop him off at Rit Z Neighborhood he could charge more.  it pays off and he finds that people in that neighborhood will pay $30/driveway!!!

Kid C finds out about Kid B's success and thinks that Kid A has underpriced his product so he canvasses the remainder of the neighborhood and gets few takers on his $30 offer

What's going on here?  We assume that all 3 kids are equally good shovellers.  eliminate the product from the mix

Let's also assume that all 3 kids are equally polite, dressed well, prompt, etc., removing the Employee Factor

What's left?  The buyers.  Seems that the home neighborhood doesn't think it's worth $30 to have someone shovel their drive, but it's worth $10 to them.  Kid B figured out that a different neighborhood might value his services more and took advantage of that.

It's the free enterprise system at work with the consumer holding all the cards.  The kids will charge what the market will bear.


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 19, 2007)

Hi Bill,

Is discretionary pricing in medicine truly illegal?

Then how come the uninsured pay far higher prices than the insured?

Serious question...

John

PS. Again just cleaned todays 3/4 inch of snow of my car windows in your homor


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## camachinist (Dec 19, 2007)

In my experience from being uninsured for years (being self-employed) I can say with assurance that "cash discounts" in the medical field are quite common.  I guess "discretion" is the better part of valor  

I surely would've liked to have been a snow shoveler or window scraper in Ontario/Quebec this past weekend. Talk about discretionary LOL. Truly awesome storm. Travel was quite an adventure...

Pat


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 19, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Is discretionary pricing in medicine truly illegal?
> 
> Then how come the uninsured pay far higher prices than the insured?
> 
> ...



First of all, thanks for the "honor"...it is still pretty nice in South Florida as it is now in the mid 70s and I no longer sweat walking out my house to my mailbox, but I will join the cold weather in Stowe next week.

Health care pricing is a very complicated subject that can't be summarized in a few sentences. I can only speak for physicians and I would rather start a new thread on that topic than post here (this should be a window cleaning only thread), but here are my impressions.

Physician are not allowed to charge MORE to anyone, they need to have  a set price for EVERYONE and that is up to the physician (such as charging $25,000 for an appendectomy). That said, Medicare and all insurance companies have a fixed reimbursement for procedures (CPT codes) no matter what a doctor charges such as only paying only $540 for an appendectomy (that is a real payment), and the doctor needs to write off the difference (no tax benefits here either) and CAN'T bill the patient.

PPOs and HMOs usually pay a doctor based upon approved Medicare rates (the gold standard now) and those fees are even LOWER than Medicare. The Medicaid program usually pays the least - sometimes less than 50% of Medicare rates!

The problem comes when someone does not have insurance or the doctor is not on "your" insurance plan as the doctor is no longer bound by a contractual rates of Medicare or PPOs or HMOs and the patient could get billed some outrageous rate like $25,000 for something Medicare only pays $540. However, most physicians will NOT hose a patient that way and will "normally" accept rates close to Medicare, even thought I have seen some pretty outrageous bills in my day. The worst cases usually involve plastic surgeons, orthopedic surgeons, and anesthesiologists for patients that end up in the emergency room.

I was very frustrated trying to practice "honest and ethical medicine" as the insurance game and business of medicine sucked. I even volunteered several nights per month at the Salvation Army Medical Clinic and treated many patients at the county hospital for free. This actually helped me grow my practice as other doctors were pretty impressed and figured that I must be a pretty decent guy and then sent me a ton or referrals.

One of the most ironic things is that "undocumented" people living in the US can actually get better health care than US citizens without insurance as they can receive free care at most hospitals where citizens are required to pay. Additionally, if you have any assets like a house and get sick and have substandard insurance, you can end up bankrupt as the fees, co-pays, deductibles, and medicine costs will quickly erode any savings you may have. 

People don't realize that doctors only receive about 17% of our health care expenses as most of the costs involve hospitals, drugs, rehab, nursing homes, etc. When you hear about someone in the hospital for an appendectomy and get over $50,000 in medical bills...please remember that the surgeon usually only receives about $540!

Having see all sides of health care in the US, it is my conclusion that we need a national health plan like Canada, England, Finland, and every other industrialized country out there. For a real shocker watch the movie "Sicko" by Michael Moore.

I certainly don't want my kids to grow up and become doctors!


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## Wonka (Dec 19, 2007)

"Physician are not allowed to charge MORE to anyone, they need to have a set price for EVERYONE and that is up to the physician (such as charging $25,000 for an appendectomy). That said, Medicare and all insurance companies have a fixed reimbursement for procedures (CPT codes) no matter what a doctor charges such as only paying only $540 for an appendectomy (that is a real payment), and the doctor needs to write off the difference (no tax benefits here either) and CAN'T bill the patient".

That's news to me.  I just paid three Doctor bills for services exceeding my insurance company's (Blue Cross Anthem) allowable amount.


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## Fern Modena (Dec 19, 2007)

I can't claim to know all the ins and outs of medical billing and insurance payments.  I do know how my (non-Medicare) situation is handled.  The doctor bills my PPO.  The insurance decides what the doctor should have charged, "disallows" the rest, and then pays 85% of the allowed amount, assuming I've met my deductible.  Then the doctor bills me for the remaining 15%.  If it is out of network, they get paid 50% by my insurance and 50% by me.

The amount the doctor bills seems to have no relation to what they will get paid.  I have bills where (for an office visit with a supartz injection) the doctor billed $451.  The insurance paid $149., I was billed $26.35, and the rest was disallowed.

What I'm unsure of, and perhaps you can help me here, Bill, is do doctors who are part of an HMO or a PPO get a member payment every month for each enrolled member?  Is there any incentive in this?  I know in Nevada it seems all the doctors want to know if you've been referred, so I gather there is a "referral fee" involved.

About not charging anybody more, how about Concierge medicine.  Its very big here, among those who can afford it.  I know somebody who has it, and she raves about the service.

Fern



Steamboat Bill said:


> Physician are not allowed to charge MORE to anyone, they need to have  a set price for EVERYONE and that is up to the physician (such as charging $25,000 for an appendectomy). That said, Medicare and all insurance companies have a fixed reimbursement for procedures (CPT codes) no matter what a doctor charges such as only paying only $540 for an appendectomy (that is a real payment), and the doctor needs to write off the difference (no tax benefits here either) and CAN'T bill the patient.
> 
> PPOs and HMOs usually pay a doctor based upon approved Medicare rates (the gold standard now) and those fees are even LOWER than Medicare. The Medicaid program usually pays the least - sometimes less than 50% of Medicare rates!


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## easyrider (Dec 19, 2007)

Well Steamboat , I now understand your disenchantment with the medical profession and also your resentment of the window washing trade. You resent having to pay full price for your window and house cleaning because you didn't have time to bribe the window washers. 

Any way I hope you do have a nice Xmas , at least as nice as the wealthy window washer.

You know I'm kidding and just messing around as you have every right to feel however you want. So really, Merry Xmas..


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> What I'm unsure of, and perhaps you can help me here, Bill, is do doctors who are part of an HMO or a PPO get a member payment every month for each enrolled member?  Is there any incentive in this?  I know in Nevada it seems all the doctors want to know if you've been referred, so I gather there is a "referral fee" involved.
> 
> About not charging anybody more, how about Concierge medicine.  Its very big here, among those who can afford it.  I know somebody who has it, and she raves about the service.



Most PPOs are fee-for-service and pay doctors a set % of Medicare rates. They are generally pretty fair.

HMOs are more restrictive and pay doctors even less than PPOs. Some doctors (not me) sign up for a "capitation HMO contract" where they receive a certain payment for every patient each month that is assigned to them and this can range from 25 cents per patient per month (dentist) to  $20 per patient per month (family doctor). Thus, a surgeon may truly only receive $3 for performing an appendectomy on a patient. I HATE capitated contracts as it creates a system where the more services you provide, the less money you will make per month. If a primary care doctor refers too many patients to a dermatologist (for example) he gets penalized. Yet the CEO of United Healthcare can amass a fortune of $1.6 billion by limiting care for members.

Primary care doctors (or specialists) are never paid a "referral fee" (that is illegal) it is more like the opposite that a doctor can get financially penalized for referring too many patients to a specialist.

Concierge medicine was actually started by a friend of mine in Boca Raton and is know as www.mdvip.com and it is too bad I was never an investor. Patients pay a yearly fee ($1,000 or more per year) for access to a primary care physician (no specialists) that agrees to limit his patient load to 300 patients or so and provides non-covered physicals (hint-hint). But here is the kicker, patients still get billed on their insurance plans for visits and treatments and they DON'T accept HMO patients!

As I said, this could be a separate topic and I am really sick (no pun intended) of the entire business of medicine, even thought I really enjoyed treating patients. I just got lucky and started a software company that allowed me to retire early.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

easysider said:


> Well Steamboat , I now understand your disenchantment with the medical profession and also your resentment of the window washing trade.



True, I am disenchanted with medicine buy I am NOT resentful of the window "CLEANING" trade.

Doctors are not allowed to follow the normal capitalistic free-market pricing structures (I love the term discretionary pricing) like window cleaners because fees are set by the government and insurance companies.

Do you realize that a Harvard trained double board certified surgeon is paid the same as someone that graduated at the bottom of their medical school in (insert third world foreign country here)?

For the record (again) - My wife set up the appointment and I paid the bill. After they left, I was simply amazed that they charged me $275 per man hour and I was not able to find any data to support that HUGE price (the average online prices are about $30-$70 per man hour and perhaps $100 for the crazy dudes that hang off high-rise buildings), thus I now feel (in retrospect) that I was ripped-off.

I would *GLADLY* pay $50 per man hour to have my windows cleaned, but anything more and I might as well do it myself or keep looking for someone that will. Call me cheap, call me stubborn, call me an idiot, call me an A******, but if I only pay my gardener $30 per man hour, my two house cleaners $15 per hour, and my auto detailer $30 per hour, why should I pay a window cleaner $275 per hour?

Is anyone here willing to admit that they would gladly pay $275 per man hour to clean the outside windows of their home?

If some sweet old lady posted this message instead of a rich doctor, would your opinion change?


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## johnmfaeth (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the insight into the medical "mess".

John


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## caribbeansun (Dec 20, 2007)

In my handbook of discretionary pricing it does not indicate a requirement that the service involve life-or-death issues, there are examples everywhere all the time that are quite trivial in the grander scheme of things.

You need to take another look at your map if you think Ontario has anything at all to do with Québécois, not that there's anything wrong with the Québécois.   

My avatar is from the pool at Castaway Cove on Grand Cayman's East End.  I am inclined to support with considerable enthusiasm any economy that is tax free.

My assumption regarding your attitude is based solely on the content of your posts in this thread.  You seem to have a need to find a common score card to determine your standing in the community and you opted for the per man hour measurement.  I would anticipate that you would attempt to apply that kind of flawed measurement to me if I were to prepare a quote for you and as such it would be worthy of an additional premium.  

Your comments about performing services for those well off individuals is quite illuminating as it really does suggest that rather than being offended by the per man hour rate charged by your window cleaners what you are truly expressing is professional jealousy and it's particularly damning because you seem to believe that being able to see the world through clean plates of glass is somehow less worthy than your chosen profession.  It would be a blow to any person's ego to find that those you consider to be less deserving are able to make more than you if you measure you own self worth by virtue of the things you possess and the size of your per man hour measurement - to not be affronted by such an obvious (in your opinion) distortion in the marketplace would require you to admit to yourself that you erred so many years ago when you entered medical school.  Yes, you were wrong and that is a bad thing.

You almost won a couple of points by your comments about Canada tending to a be a kinder, gentler nation (I paraphrased) but then you had to go and equate money with a dream.  I can assure you that money is not what I dream about and it's not the score card I use to rank myself or to determine if I've been successful or not - it's possible that this may be one of the elements that can begin to explain part of the difference between our two nations (then again, maybe not because I know a lot of Canadians that equate money with having "made it").

So give it up - stop claiming outrage at high man hours and admit that you're jealous of the window washer that got the better of you.




Steamboat Bill said:


> Dude, you are now starting to sound like a silver-tongued Westgate timeshare salesman...what's next a coupon to a buffet with my next window cleaning?
> 
> 
> I am talking about paying *$275.00 per man hour* to get my windows cleaned, this is not a life-or-death issue, but it sure has been entertaining reading everyone’s opinions.
> ...


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## Wonka (Dec 20, 2007)

Steamboat Bill-

Back to the window washing situation...I asked once before, was a bucket-type truck (cherry picker) required?  If so, that would explain the pricing.  Service with bucket-trucks is very expensive.  They also charge a fee for the equipment.  If not, we're back to the starting point and disagreements with others on the reasonableness of the pricing.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> My assumption regarding your attitude is based solely on the content of your posts in this thread.  You seem to have a need to find a common score card to determine your standing in the community and you opted for the per man hour measurement.  I would anticipate that you would attempt to apply that kind of flawed measurement to me if I were to prepare a quote for you and as such it would be worthy of an additional premium.
> 
> So give it up - stop claiming outrage at high man hours and admit that you're jealous of the window washer that got the better of you.



I believe the preferred term is: "Window Cleaners" and I have actually had to re-edit my posts when I find myself interchanging the two terms - washing and cleaning.

I use the $ per man hour as a basis of comparison as this is the best measure I know because I am not an expert on "Fungibile Pricing". I also use the $ per item when shopping at Costco to determine that I should probably buy the jumbo pack of toilet paper that includes 50 rolls as it is much cheaper than buying single rolls. I do, however, like to splurge on the fancy two-ply extra-soft variety.

Do you have any better ideas for a common comparison factor for a particular service other than $ per man hour?

I have no problems with my ego or standing in society...I am just a little fumed at being charged so much for a service that I personally perceived the be worth much less...in terms of dollar compensation.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

Wonka said:


> Steamboat Bill-
> 
> Back to the window washing situation...I asked once before, was a bucket-type truck (cherry picker) required?  If so, that would explain the pricing.  Service with bucket-trucks is very expensive.  They also charge a fee for the equipment.  If not, we're back to the starting point and disagreements with others on the reasonableness of the pricing.



I did answer that in a previous thread....no fancy bucket-truck was used.

They pulled up in a standard Chevy or Ford van, one ladder, one hose, small 5 gallon bucket, soap, some brushes, and squeegees.


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## Wonka (Dec 20, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I did answer that in a previous thread....no fancy bucket-truck was used.
> 
> They pulled up in a standard Chevy or Ford van, one ladder, one hose, small 5 gallon bucket, soap, some brushes, and squeegees.



OK, I didn't read your previous thread.  So you feel you were "taken".  It's happened to all of us.  Get over it.  

You've indicated you don't have an "ego problem".  IMHO, that isn't what you communicate in this post.  I understand the gist, service people often charge more for the same service to the wealthy.  That's probably true.  So what?  That's just the way it is.  Service people also overcharge the average Joe as well. 

I'm not sure how to say this without insulting you.  I might suggest a little more humility.  Folks here don't care that you live in a multi-million dollar mansion, or that you're a young, retired multi-millionaire that has worked with the rich & famous.  It isn't important.  It really didn't add anything to the point of your post.  

It's funny.  When people retire, they don't seem to be as impressed as they used to be with education credentials, rank, or previous job titles.  Most don't care if you were President of GM.  I still do.  I'm very impressed with your accomplishments.  You should be very proud.  But...lighten up a little.  It makes those of us who haven't achieved as much feel a little "small".  We all have "little feelings."


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## camachinist (Dec 20, 2007)

> There were two guys doing the work and they had a high pressure machine and a nice truck.





> did answer that in a previous thread....no fancy bucket-truck was used.
> 
> They pulled up in a standard Chevy or Ford van, one ladder, one hose, small 5 gallon bucket, soap, some brushes, and squeegees.



Evolution? 

Given the description of the job and the latest information on the contractor, am I the only one wishing for video of this job being completed to the customer's satisfaction in one hour, including the pressure washing of certain flotsam with the now non-extant pressure washer? Surely this would be at the least entertaining and at most fodder for Guinness (not the beer)? 

Great reading, thanks!

Edited to add a great visual equalizer I utilize when attempting to unify those of greater means with us average folks.






Pat


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## Fern Modena (Dec 20, 2007)

Here's what I don't get (and I posted this earlier in the thread)...you keep mentioning how much you pay everyone per hour.  Gardening, window washing, housecleaning, auto detailing, etc...all of them are priced on a per job basis here.  Isn't it the same where you are?  I think you are trying to quantify it by breaking it down to "per man hour" rates, but it doesn't work the same for labor and toilet paper at Sams, IMHO.  

Oh, and I don't know how long your house cleaners take, but $15. per person per hour sounds awfully cheap, unless they take six hours or more... Do they speak English at that price?

Fern



Steamboat Bill said:


> I would *GLADLY* pay $50 per man hour to have my windows cleaned, but anything more and I might as well do it myself or keep looking for someone that will. Call me cheap, call me stubborn, call me an idiot, call me an A******, but if I only pay my gardener $30 per man hour, my two house cleaners $15 per hour, and my auto detailer $30 per hour, why should I pay a window cleaner $275 per hour?


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## wackymother (Dec 20, 2007)

Did you ever find out if the amount was what your wife agreed to pay?


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## Wonka (Dec 20, 2007)

*The Solution*

Here's an easy solution.  Next time, bribe the "Window Sanitation Executive" with $350 to complete the job for $200.  That'll work, no?  Everyone will be a "happy camper."

PS.  I hope your wife hasn't read this string.  Blaming her isn't a good idea.  It'll get you in lots of trouble every time.
I know...I've done the same thing a few times.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

camachinist said:


> Evolution?
> 
> Given the description of the job and the latest information on the contractor, am I the only one wishing for video of this job being completed to the customer's satisfaction in one hour, including the pressure washing of certain flotsam with the now non-extant pressure washer? Surely this would be at the least entertaining and at most fodder for Guinness (not the beer)?



The van appeared new, not beat up like many service vehicles I see on the road and it had a trailer attached (see photo). It had nice large colorful graphic stickers on the side, but I did not walk over to it and inspect it. I guess I liked it better than the old pick-ups and trucks that I see other contractors/gardeners/etc. use in my neighborhood most every day. Sorry for the confusion on my posts, but I am providing photo evidence. I wish I filmed the entire job as I could post that on YouTube.

The fancy pressure washer they used was the standard $999 gas powered ones that they sell in Lowes.

I did a little more research on the company as I have their receipt and here are some interenting tidbits:

1. The business is being run from a home (not that there is anything wrong with that) location and I was able to pull up the owners home sale and tax info online. I even used Google to zoom into a birdseye view of his house. He lives in a nice area of West Boca Raton and the windows on his house look pretty clean. According to Google, the drive to my house was under 10 miles, thus the fuel costs to drive here are less than $5.

2. He has an active occupational license that was filed on October 2006.

3. I was not able to pull up any workers comp info for the company, but can't be sure if they have it or not. I have a feeling they don't.

4. My check was signed on the back by the owner (personally) and there is a possibility that he "washed" this check to avoid taxes.

5. I now think that some dude started this business himself and hires workers for $15-20 per hour and then bills customers like me for $275 per hour. Wow..that is a nice profit.

6. I am pretty sure that any legitimate business expenses the owner has are pretty low as this is a home-based business. This is not a Forutne 500 company and I doubt he provides health insurance, SEP-IRA, or paid leave for his workers. I actually think he may not even be paying workers comp insurance, thus if a worker got hurt on the job, they could SUE me!

7. I was able to find a flyer for the company and it had a photo of the van with trailer attached and I will upload that image for everyone.


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## MILOIOWA (Dec 20, 2007)

We have a guy who comes once a month to our business (Ford/Chevy Dealership), just a bucket and squeegeez with some extensions, takes about an hour and the bill is always over $200.00 if that is any help.


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## easyrider (Dec 20, 2007)

When a craftsman does their task seemingly effortlessly , quickly and well done they should not be penalized by judging the effort by the hour but instead by how much time they saved you or how good a job was done. Most of the better craftsmen prefer to be paid piece work . Most contractors use this method to bid on a project and so do many mechanics. This isn't price gouging but is in fact how business is done. When you read the cleaning bill for $325.00 to clean 75+ windows that is a low piecework price of $4.35 per window. The house cleaning at $225.00 was probably based on square footage as well. You would call them if they damaged your house so call them now. These professional cleaners would more than likely explain the bill if you asked them to. I doubt they just pulled a number out of the air or flipped their calculator over and looked for a good number to charge you. I don't believe that the people in the wealthy neighborhoods pay any more than any one else for the same job, people pay more because they are getting more. If you called for pricing you could compare.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

MILOIOWA said:


> We have a guy who comes once a month to our business (Ford/Chevy Dealership), just a bucket and squeegeez with some extensions, takes about an hour and the bill is always over $200.00 if that is any help.



More proof that this is a great business for someone!

There should be an ad in the newspaper - "Want to make $200 per hour with minimal education and training?"... also I posted this before - once the large "undocumented workforce" finds out how much can be made cleaning windows...I am sure the prices will come down very quickly. That is not a political statement, it is a fact.

This morning, on my way to the gym, I saw the same guy cleaning windows at McDonalds and I now assume this is a daily job for him. He is not that good (poor technique as compared to the YouTube videos I posted), but the job is minimally acceptable as the windows at McDonalds probably need cleaning 1-2x per day. He also does other jobs there like cleaning floors, bathrooms, etc. and there is a LARGE sign in the window advertising jobs for $8-10 per hour. If McDonalds employs him for 5 hours per day @ $10 per hour, his weekly gross would be $500 and that is pretty sad.


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## Fern Modena (Dec 20, 2007)

Doncha think your feelings about this has become just a tad obsessive?

Hope your wife's nails were done prettily for the holidays, btw.  You know how we gals love our fancy nails   Mine are burgundy with glittery holiday bows on them.

Fern



Steamboat Bill said:


> I did a little more research on the company as I have their receipt and here are some interenting tidbits:
> 
> _1. The business is being run from a home (not that there is anything wrong with that) location and I was able to pull up the owners home sale and tax info online. I even used Google to zoom into a birdseye view of his house. He lives in a nice area of West Boca Raton and the windows on his house look pretty clean. According to Google, the drive to my house was under 10 miles, thus the fuel costs to drive here are less than $5.
> 
> ...


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 20, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Doncha think your feelings about this has become just a tad obsessive?
> 
> Hope your wife's nails were done prettily for the holidays, btw.  You know how we gals love our fancy nails   Mine are burgundy with glittery holiday bows on them.
> 
> Fern



Perhaps I have gone a tiny bit overboard with this thread...but what the heck, at least some people got a good laugh as my "expense"

Yes, my wife has nice nails so when I bring up the this topic with her, she can say "talk to the hand" and I can see the nice nail polish that resulted in me becoming very well informed about the window washing....errrr window cleaning business.

The funny thing is that incident this will actually SAVE me a lot of money in the long run as I have warned my wife against these types of foolish expenses and that she needs to develop a "negotiate everything" mentality.

Perhaps Santa will even bring me a new squeegee.


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## Luanne (Dec 20, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> The funny thing is that incident this will actually SAVE me a lot of money in the long run as I have warned my wife against these types of foolish expenses and that she needs to develop a "negotiate everything" mentality.



I'm speechless.


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## Htoo0 (Dec 20, 2007)

And a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you too, Bill. (Oh and don't ask what those nails cost on a 'per man-hour basis'!)


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 21, 2007)

Htoo0 said:


> And a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you too, Bill. (Oh and don't ask what those nails cost on a 'per man-hour basis'!)



And a real "Merry Christmas" to you (not a lame happy holiday) and a belated "Happy Hanukkah" to anyone I missed last week.

Wouldn't getting your nails done be calculated on a "per woman-hour basis"? Hmmm....that could lead to an interesting new thread.

Here is a link to the "cheap TUGers I love" complaining about Blockbuster "malleable pricing"
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=438275#post438275

Gee...it is not so funny when they get overcharged! Luckily, my rates have not gone up like theirs, so I guess that I won one this time.


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## caribbeansun (Dec 21, 2007)

Wow, if you really can't consider any other factor than price then you will get what you pay for - it's that simple!

Personally, I think you should run a controlled experiment - I would suggest the following:


Find a window soiling firm and have them throw all manner of soil, debris and anything else they can get to stick to the windows (you must remain independent or risk biasing the sample);
Have your DW call 3 window cleaning or washing services (you may as well see if she's learned her lesson after you smacked her on the nose with the newspaper after this last fiasco);
Randomly select 1 of the 3 services to clean the windows.  Once they have finished have the cleanliness of the windows assessed - hopefully there is some manner of scientific measurement that can be applied as a subjective measurement could contaminate the sample.  Ideally this measurement will be expressed as parts per square;
Have the same window soiling firm return and repeat from step 1) until all 3 cleaning/washing firms have completed their tasks;
Take the parts per square inch measurement and compare to the price thereby giving you both an hourly rate and cleanliness factor to compare the relative abilities of the 3 firms.
Award the firm with the best ratio of parts per square inch over cost per hour a contract for washing/cleaning your windows in perpetuity such that you'll never have to concern yourself with this again.  Of course it might be appropriate to repeat the above test at regular intervals such that you can reaffirm that you aren't being screwed over by the washer/cleaner of choice.
At Costco I compare the cost per packaging unit (ie. grams) rather than the cost per item since items at Costco seem to have included steroids when they were hatched at the manufacturing plant.

I trust you compare the cost per square of your lavish spending on the 2-ply, extra soft to the lowly 1-ply, extra harsh.  But isn't that sending mixed messages to your DW - it's okay for you to spend the family's resources on much self-indulgent luxuries but not her?

Seems to me that you have a lot of work to get done.





Steamboat Bill said:


> I use the $ per man hour as a basis of comparison as this is the best measure I know because I am not an expert on "Fungibile Pricing". I also use the $ per item when shopping at Costco to determine that I should probably buy the jumbo pack of toilet paper that includes 50 rolls as it is much cheaper than buying single rolls. I do, however, like to splurge on the fancy two-ply extra-soft variety.
> 
> Do you have any better ideas for a common comparison factor for a particular service other than $ per man hour?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 21, 2007)

caribbeansun said:


> Wow, if you really can't consider any other factor than price then you will get what you pay for - it's that simple!
> 
> Personally, I think you should run a controlled experiment - I would suggest the following:
> Find a window soiling firm and have them throw all manner of soil, debris and anything else they can get to stick to the windows (you must remain independent or risk biasing the sample);
> ...



I enjoyed reading your window cleaning experiment and could apply a scientific method (including a hypothesis that there would be a minimal difference in quality, but HUGE difference in price for the different cleaners) for research, but my windows never get that dirty, and  I am not sure anyone would notice the difference between a true professional window cleaner and the guy I described cleaning the windows at McDonalds.

I too compare product weight at Costco (just got back actually) although the number of rolls per package was a better indicator for evaluating my favorite toilet paper.

Thanks for worrying about my wife, but I can assure you that she takes MANY opportunities to indulge herself such as she is currently doing right now at the spa.

------

As a side note...I want to personally INVITE everyone on this thread to also read and comment on the Blockbuster thread that was started by KCI  who is complaining that Blockbuster raised HER membership fee while they did not raise other members fees (such as myself :whoopie

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60883


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## ladycody (Dec 21, 2007)

Alright Bill...I've seen you and others referencing this thread and how long it is...so I thought I'd share the silly song runs through my head now every time I see a new post here.  (warning...you will be humming this stupid song all day long) 

To the tune of "The song that doesnt end"...and if you dont know the tune...you can hear it at 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0&feature=related


This is the thread that never ends...
It just goes on and on my friends....
Some people star-ted posting here ~ not knowing what it was....
And they'll continue posting here forever just because...
(repeat to infinity)
:hysterical:

Ps:  Never chimed in before but I think I'd wash my windows myself too next time.


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## Fern Modena (Dec 21, 2007)

KCI is a woman.  I know.  I've met her   Sometimes its hard to tell from the name in cyberspace.  Easysider, caribbeansun, I have no idea of either.  I know Wonka is a man, cause I was at his naming ceremony 

Fern


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 21, 2007)

ladycody said:


> Alright Bill...I've seen you and others referencing this thread and how long it is...so I thought I'd share the silly song runs through my head now every time I see a new post here.  (warning...you will be humming this stupid song all day long)



Here is an even better one -

 There is a “classic” 1936 version of a song played on an ykulele that is very catchy.

  Here is a GREAT animation that demonstrats the hazards of window cleaning and it uses that song as the background. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El-GuiStMsw


  When I'm Cleaning Windows

  George Formby
- written by George Formby, Harry Gifford and Frederick E. Cliffe
- as recorded September 27, 1936 by George Formby (1904-1961)

Now I go cleanin' windows to earn an honest bob
For a nosy parker it's an interestin' job

Now it's a job that just suits me
A window cleaner you would be
If you can see what I can see
When I'm cleanin' windows

Honeymoonin' couples too
You should see them bill 'n coo
You'd be surprised at things they do
When I'm cleanin' windows

In my profession I'll work hard
But I'll never stop
I'll climb this blinkin' ladder
Till I get right to the top

The blushin' bride, she looks divine
The bridegroom he is doin' fine
I'd rather have his job than mine
When I'm cleanin' windows

The chambermaids' sweet names I call
It's a wonder I don't fall
My mind's not on my work at all
When I'm cleanin' windows

I know a fella, such a swell
He has a thirst, that's plain to tell
I've seen him drink his bath as well
When I'm cleanin' windows

Oh, in my profession I'll work hard
But I'll never stop
I'll climb this blinkin' ladder
Till I get right to the top

Pyjamas lyin' side by side
Ladies nighties I have spied
I've often seen what goes inside
When I'm cleanin' windows

------ banjo ------

Now there's a famous talkie queen
She looks a flapper on the screen
She's more like eightie than eighteen
When I'm cleanin' windows

She pulls her hair all down behind
Then pulls down her... never mind
And after that pulls down the blind
When I'm cleanin' windows

In my profession I'll work hard
But I'll never stop
I'll climb this blinkin' ladder
Till I get right to the top

An old maid walks around the floor
She's so fed up, one day I'm sure
She'll drag me in and lock the door
When I'm cleanin' windows

When I'm cleanin' windows

-------------------------------------------------------------

Glossary
--------

bob: an informal word for a shilling, a British coin worth one twentieth of a pound

nosy parker: a prying person

bill 'n coo: "bill" means to kiss and whisper amorously; "coo" means to murmur lovingly

swell: remarkable person

talkie: an early film with a soundtrack; a "talking picture"

flapper: (in the 1920s) a young woman, especially one flaunting her unconventional behaviour

old maid: a woman regarded as unlikely ever to marry; a spinster 

  You can even order this song as a ringtone, but I don’t want to post the link to that as that.


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## Abby's Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

*It IS too expensive*

I am a CPA, with  4 years of college, professional liability insurance, and as a sole-practitioner, when clients come in with questions or issues, they see ME.  I don't charge $275 per hour, and I wouldn't hire a window cleaner who did -- no matter how many windows or how high my house.

As far as charging more becuase you have an expensive house -- that's ethically, morally, and probably legally wrong.  At a minumum it's discrimination.

You WERE overcharged, and I wouldn't call them again if my windows were so dirty there was NO sun coming into the house!


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 21, 2007)

Abby's Mom said:


> You WERE overcharged, and I wouldn't call them again if my windows were so dirty there was NO sun coming into the house!



You are my new "HERO"...thanks for your post as it really made my day.

If I didn't really like my accountant, I would ask for your business card!


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## CarolF (Dec 21, 2007)

This is such a wacky thread  .  It has occurred to me that I hate washing my windows because I end up with stiff and sore shoulders, arms, neck, hands and legs (from climbing up and down the ladder whilst carrying a bucket).  The window cleaning solution stings my eyes and nose and turns my fingers to shrivelled prunes.  I always end up wet and uncomfortable. 

There will be a time when I am not physically able to do this work and in the lead up to that time I will take longer and longer to do the job and become more and more physically sore and uncomfortable.  At some point I may choose to pay someone to do the work and I may be glad that there is someone who chooses this way to make a living.

My generation was encouraged to go to university as a way to secure "good" work, make a good living, lead a "more comfortable life" and a higher "standing" in society than a manual labourer.  As a result our society became heavy with people choosing office work etc rather than manual labour.  Now we have a situation (in Australia) with too few labourers.  Few are choosing the dirty, physically demanding, sometimes dangerous, outside in all weather, type of work. 

The manual labourers can now earn more money than the university educated because their work is in demand.  Personally, I don't have a problem with this because the young and physically able have now got another way to earn a decent living.   They may be able to afford to buy into the housing market and set themselves up with a comfortable lifestyle and acquire the material possessions my generation said were desirable.  Manual labour didn't always provide these opportunities.  Whilst it was considered "good, honest work", many worked their fingers to the bone until retirement then found their bodies had all but worn out.

Just as my generation profited by the lack of "professionals" at that time, this generation will profit from the lack of "labourers" now.  In working out fair price for work, it is worth considering that manual workers can have a shorter working life due to the rigours of the work.


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## caribbeansun (Dec 22, 2007)

Really - so I guess every airline and hotel in the world is ethically, morally and legally wrong.  Are you trying to suggest that CPA's and lawyers don't practice discretionary pricing?  Come on, I know for a fact that they do.  Of course it's called "value pricing" in some areas but it's the exact same thing.  

It's unfortunate that you can't charge $275 an hour - you could if you wanted to.  In most cases people don't charge what they are worth and it's their own internal limitations that make that happen.  So why can't you?  Why don't you?

Standard answers and solutions: 
My clients won't pay that much - solution - get better clients
Nobody's charging that much - solution - until someone does nobody will, why not be a price leader rather than a follower?
People just don't pay that much for financial statements and tax returns - solution - provide services that add value

For a CPA your reply demonstrates a surprising lack of experience in real world pricing. None of your clients do this?

To repeat - discretionary pricing happens everywhere all the time.





Abby's Mom said:


> I am a CPA, with  4 years of college, professional liability insurance, and as a sole-practitioner, when clients come in with questions or issues, they see ME.  I don't charge $275 per hour, and I wouldn't hire a window cleaner who did -- no matter how many windows or how high my house.
> 
> As far as charging more becuase you have an expensive house -- that's ethically, morally, and probably legally wrong.  At a minumum it's discrimination.
> 
> You WERE overcharged, and I wouldn't call them again if my windows were so dirty there was NO sun coming into the house!


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 22, 2007)

CarolF said:


> The manual labourers can now earn more money than the university educated because their work is in demand.  Personally, I don't have a problem with this because the young and physically able have now got another way to earn a decent living.



I don't have a problem with manual laborers making a decent living either, I just have a problem paying $275 per man hour ($USD) to clean my home windows when almost every other manual laborer charges about $30 per hour (read my other posts for examples).

I know the economy in Australia is going well, so I will do a $USD-$AUD conversion for you....

*Would you pay  $317 Australian Dollars per hour to have your home windows cleaned?*

I will bet you a vegemite sandwich you won't.









caribbeansun said:


> In most cases people don't charge what they are worth and it's their own internal limitations that make that happen.  So why can't you?  Why don't you?
> 
> To repeat - discretionary pricing happens everywhere all the time.



For the record, a good accountant charges about $150-200 per hour in Florida....mush LESS than a window cleaner.

I am NOW starting to recognize all the discretionary pricing around me and will begin to  improve my negotiation skills and discretionary spending. This is a battle I am sure that I can win or at least minimize the damage.

*Caribbeansun --- I have been very transparent in my postings, will you disclose the industry you work in?*


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## vivalour (Dec 22, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I don't have a problem with manual laborers making a decent living either, I just have a problem paying $275 per man hour ($USD) to clean my home windows when almost every other manual laborer charges about $30 per hour (read my other posts for examples).
> 
> For the record, a good accountant charges about $150-200 per hour in Florida....mush LESS than a window cleaner.
> 
> ...



IMO it doesn't matter at all what service or industry you're looking at; in "free market" economies, ya pays yer money and takes yer choice, right? 

Why should a good "_female or male companion_" make $1000/hr and a grave digger make $25? Let's hear it guys... 

Is it a matter of attractiveness of the profession?  Live meat vs dead meat?  "Value added?" Dumbness of the potential clients? Better sales pitch? Who knows and who cares. In my experience, the market is a very good control on the costs of services out there. Charge too much for anything and someone else will come along to take your place for either less money or better service.


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## CarolF (Dec 22, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I*Would you pay  $317 Australian Dollars per hour to have your home windows cleaned?*
> 
> I will bet you a vegemite sandwich you won't.
> 
> ...


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## naudette (Dec 22, 2007)

*window washing*

I live in Scottsdale, Arizona in a one level house over 5000 sq. feet with 20 windows, but some are 6-8 feet wide and 6 feet tall.  I pay $200 to have them cleaned along with washing the screens and frames.  That's pretty standard here.  And of course, we never have rain unless I get my windows washed!

NWhite


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 23, 2007)

Ok I just added a poll to this thread, something I should have done when I started it.


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## Kay H (Dec 23, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Ok I just added a poll to this thread, something I should have done when I started it.




Bill, what is your point?  You can't tell from the many responses how people feel about your dissatisfaction from paying this fee?  Enough is enough.  We all know how you feel and you should have a pretty good idea of how we feel.  Can't you let it rest?


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## camachinist (Dec 23, 2007)

So how much per man hour would you pay carolers to sing in front of your now sparkling windows?

Or for a avian specialist to install a partridge in your pear tree....?

I see this as good holiday entertainment 

Pat


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 23, 2007)

camachinist said:


> I see this as good holiday entertainment
> 
> Pat



Me too....but I decided to keep the votes confidential to avoid potential embarrassment to the voters.

Check these out estimated costs for the 12 Days of Christmas:

http://www.pncchristmaspriceindex.com/

http://ebaymatchups.com/matchup/view/how-much-would-it-cost-vs-12-days-of-christmas_316398

http://www.yieldingwealth.com/how-much-would-it-cost-to-give-the-12-days-of-christmas/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6604102


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## ladycody (Dec 24, 2007)

> Bill, what is your point? You can't tell from the many responses how people feel about your dissatisfaction from paying this fee? Enough is enough. We all know how you feel and you should have a pretty good idea of how we feel. Can't you let it rest?



I think you're probably taking the thread a bit more seriously than those who are still bantering the subject.  While it started off as a serious discussion...and still has some serious content...it seems to me that it's mostly a bunch of people continuing to post in it because they're having a good time with with the debate.  (course...maybe _I'm_ just reading it wrong.) I've given up reading all the content and have taken to skimming...but I'll admit it makes me chuckle to see this thread growing.  And this post was my contribution.


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## MelBay (Dec 24, 2007)

We live in Missouri, and have about 18 windows.  The last quote we got was about $450.    So, we decided to put in thermal replacement windows so we can do them ourselves.  We found windows online, had them shipped to our home, and my handy hubby installed them all himself.  After he got the hang of the first one, it took him 30-45 minutes to do each one.  If you order over $1000 at a time, shipping is free.  We figured that we'll pay for the windows in just a few years by skipping the annual and/or semi-annual washing, not to mention the reduced gas & electricity bills.  

The last time they were here they broke lots of the little screen window "clippy" things, which made my husband livid, so I'm glad to be rid of them.  

So, that's what I think.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 24, 2007)

MelBay said:


> We live in Missouri, and have about 18 windows.  The last quote we got was about $450.



Somehow I think your quote was based upon inside and outside and would take a lot longer than 2 man hours. Either way $450 / 18 windows = $25 per window!!!


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## tomandrobin (Dec 24, 2007)

Just read the post, skipped until you added the poll. 


I think your overall cost is not bad, we pay $200 for our windows to be cleaned. I have to wonder how good was the overall job for the small amount of time at your home. It takes our window cleaners (two of them) about 4 hours. This includes cleaning the windows, removing the screens and washing them, storing the screens in the basement, washing the window sills (inside and outside). They also clean our foyer lights and relamp them, and all the interior doors with windows.


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## ladycody (Dec 24, 2007)

tomandrobin said:


> Just read the post, skipped until you added the poll.
> 
> 
> I think your overall cost is not bad, we pay $200 for our windows to be cleaned. I have to wonder how good was the overall job for the small amount of time at your home. It takes our window cleaners (two of them) about 4 hours. This includes cleaning the windows, removing the screens and washing them, storing the screens in the basement, washing the window sills (inside and outside). They also clean our foyer lights and relamp them, and all the interior doors with windows.


I wanna use your guys!!! (well...unless you only have 5 windows...and then you're getting robbed too.   )


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## tomandrobin (Dec 24, 2007)

We have 30 windows, two sets of french door, two door with glass and three light fixtures that are mounted 20 feet high that are cleaned.


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## Htoo0 (Dec 26, 2007)

If I hired someone to do something without knowing the cost (or how long  it would take them for the amount paid) then yes, I would pay it. It would be my mistake (IMHO) and I would just go on with my life and call it a lesson learned.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 27, 2007)

I am AMAZED at the results of the poll so far...

50% of TUG voters actually think paying $275.00 per man hour to clean residential windows is an acceptable fee to pay. I am flabbergassed.

However, nobody has been able to justify while this SINGLE profession is able to charge (and apparently 50% of TUGers seem to think the fee is reasonable) so much money when almost all other similar services like landscaping, auto detailing, house cleaning, raking leaves, etc. get paid only $30 per man hour.

I am still very confused about this entire issue. 

However, Santa brought me a bucket, brush, and squeegee (thanks to my DW)....I must have been a "good boy" this year as this present will save me a ton of cash. I already have several ladders.


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## Htoo0 (Dec 27, 2007)

The check engine light came on in my wife's car. I checked the gas cap and it was not tight. However, the light has to be reset so I had her run it by the dealer's to confirm the problem and turn out the light. I thought it might cost $15-25. WRONG! It was $50. The next time it happened (about a week ago) I used my own OBDII reader ($80) to confirm the same problem and reset the light. Took me under 5 minutes. (Actually about 2) But let's say it took 10 at $50 for a cost of $300 per man-hour. Of course I hope I don't have to use it again but I need to or I'm actually losing money by doing it myself. ($80 for the tool versus $50 have it done.) (Yes I can probably get it done cheaper somewhere else but I didn't want to hunt around.)


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## naudette (Dec 27, 2007)

*window washing...*

Here is a story about charging more because of where one lives.  

I live in the far north part of Scottsdale, near Carefree, Az if anyone knows that area.  I took my cat to a new vet after moving up there to have her teeth cleaned.  The tech told me the price would be between $200 and $600.  I asked why so much?  I've had pets teeth cleaned for about $125 in "middle" Scottsdale and in Missouri.  She said some of the items were optional like iv fluids, etc.  So I said if I don't do everything then I'm a bad pet owner.  Talk about guilt.  The tech said well you do live in an expensive part of town.  That really made me angry and I told the vet just that.  It ended up costing about $250 which is ridicules.  

So then I needed to get my other cat declawed.  I called this vet again to get prices.  $500!   So I called another vet which is just about 5 miles south on the same road and the price was $300 for the exact same procedure.  So needless to say I quit going to the more expensive vet and actually really like the other vet much, much more.

Maybe the $275 per hour window cleaner is related to the vet.....

Nancy


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 27, 2007)

HtooO and njwhite bring up two interesting points and I am NOT going to try to justify those prices except say that:

The auto dealer usually has expensive equipment and specialized trained mechanics and they ONLY authorized place to take a your car without possibly voiding the warranty and risk damage to the engine. Sure, you could take it elsewhere or do it yourself, but the risk is not necessarily worth the reward.

Getting into Vet school is much harder than medical school and Vets are one of the highest trained professionals in the US. Plus, the overhead for running a vet office is HUGE. The comments made to you were extremely unprofessional and I would write the doctor a letter and even send a letter the the Vet Medical Association. I am glad you shopped around for a better price as health care costs for animals are NOT fixed like they are for Medical Doctors.

FYI - Average costs to get "your" teeth cleaned by a Dentist = $100 (45 minute process)...average cost to get your mother's ugly thick fungus toenails cut by a Podiatrist = $40 (15 minute process).

-----------------

Getting back to window cleaners, I am still confused why they want to charge $275 per man hour vs other service industries as I have compared them to in other posts. Heck, even if they wanted to make $50-75 per hour, I might even consider that reasonable....but $275 per man hour is simply ridiculous 

I am SHOCKED that 5 TUGers voted that this is a reasonable fee, but I want proof that they would actually pay that amount vs clicking "yes" on an online post.


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## camachinist (Dec 27, 2007)

I never said I would pay it, only that it was "reasonable" for the work performed, based on the OP. If done to the customer's satisfaction and for a price the customer is agreeable to, time is irrelevant.

The guy who extorted me for a septic certification for a refinance a few years ago was here for 20 minutes and charged 350.00. Come to think of it, the well guy did the same thing. Did I like it? No. Was it necessary? Only if I wanted the money. The difference is I was not agreeable to the charges, but was forced into paying them because I needed the loan. Wish I was richer (no loans necessary) 

I'm shocked so few people voted (11 as of this post time).

Pat


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## Passepartout (Dec 27, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Getting back to window cleaners, I am still confused why they want to charge $275 per man hour vs other service industries as I have compared them to in other posts. Heck, even if they wanted to make $50-75 per hour, I might even consider that reasonable....but $275 per man hour is simply ridiculous
> 
> I am SHOCKED that 5 TUGers voted that this is a reasonable fee, but I want proof that they would actually pay that amount vs clicking "yes" on an online post.



This thread has given me many smiles and not just a few chuckles. Thanks, Bill. Were the windows and pressure washing done to your satisfaction? If not and no bids were asked for before work commenced, you have a beef. If, however, the work was done to your specification, pay the tariff and make note to self: no home maintenance without bids. 

True, we don't pay $550 for window cleaning here in semi-rural Idaho, but the guy does DW's office windows then drives to the house and does all of them here every few weeks, and I have no idea how long it takes him to do it. We took bids. 

Oh, and I'm not going to show him what a half dozen TUGers feel is reasonable. 

Jim Ricks


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## Jya-Ning (Dec 27, 2007)

camachinist said:


> I'm shocked so few people voted (11 as of this post time).



I want to vote no, except I don't think it is a rip off.  The OP did not mention how many companies he has looked into, and did not quote any price he got from these companies.  Either before or after.

If Op feel $275 is reasonable to start with (since he did call them to do the work), and if they did to his requirement (clean the window so it is no longer dusty on that min), then I don't see rip off.  If I am OP, I may feel stupid myself since I never try to study how hard it is to wash a window myself.

If I call a company and they quote me $275, and if that is the only company that give me any response, I will start to study the power water machine.

On the other hand, I may feel that I may play too hard and broken one of the window and it will cost me more than that amount, and pay them if that is the only company that answer my call.

However, since OP never mention any other quotes, who know, maybe because of the hurrican, the Window Wash does cause that much in that time frame.  Although if that is the case, I may consider delay the wash a little.

Than again, I will find some coupon book first.

Jya-Ning


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 27, 2007)

Jya-Ning said:


> Than again, I will find some coupon book first.
> 
> Jya-Ning



I will be on the lookout for a coupon, but I have a squeegee and brush now...no power equipment.

As I have posted before, my wife made the appointment without getting a quote (you know how wives can be). I just was left home to pay the bill.

If window cleaners "typically" make $275 per man hour...then I am surprised, if not (which I assume they really make $50-75 per hour) then I was ripped off. No big deal, this thread has been an educational and fun (and therapeutic) experience. 

I have hurricane impact double plane windows that are rated to 150mph, so I think any window cleaning equipment won't hurt them.


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## Elan (Dec 27, 2007)

I just want to know how big of garage you have that it was worthwhile to pay $3K to have the floor coated.   How many man hours did that take?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 27, 2007)

Elan said:


> I just want to know how big of garage you have that it was worthwhile to pay $3K to have the floor coated.   How many man hours did that take?



Oversized 3 car garage...it took two men three full days to do it as there were the following steps:

acid clean flood
seal all cracks
sand floor
primer paint layer
base paint layer
chip speckeled layer
clear coat layer

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ation&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## Jya-Ning (Dec 27, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I will be on the lookout for a coupon, but I have a squeegee and brush now...no power equipment.
> 
> As I have posted before, my wife made the appointment without getting a quote (you know how wives can be). I just was left home to pay the bill.



Are you sure we are talking about $275 Window wash?

Sounds like you get hit by this kind of bill first time.  And you try to use tug to tell wife that is over price and now you got squeegee and brush for the present.

Are you sure we are arguing $275 window wash is too expensive?

Man I am 100% moral support you.  But I think I saw a no-win battle.  Do you want to reconsider your vote?:hysterical:  If it is between me and my DW, I will feel very lucky to only spend $275 (actually, my wife is more cost caution )

Jya-Ning


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## easyrider (Dec 27, 2007)

*$21.00 a minute for plowing.*

It was $150.00 to remove the snow off my driveway. The plow only worked seven minutes. I counted the actual plow time minus the talk to me time. Thats $21.00 a minute. They charged my neighbor the same.

I gave the guy a $10.00 tip and thanked him.


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## geekette (Dec 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> As I have posted before, my wife made the appointment without getting a quote (you know how wives can be). I just was left home to pay the bill.



I'd like to know 'how wives can be'?????


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 28, 2007)

easysider said:


> It was $150.00 to remove the snow off my driveway. The plow only worked seven minutes. I counted the actual plow time minus the talk to me time. Thats $21.00 a minute. They charged my neighbor the same.
> 
> I gave the guy a $10.00 tip and thanked him.



For the record, that seems to be a lot of money for 7 minutes work but I can't imagine how difficult it would be to do it with a shovel. I will repost in a few months after I try to clean my windows myself.

Snow blowing is an example of having the right equipment and being at the right place and time (and being exposed to the elements). Assuming 15 minutes per driveway, they still could earn $600 per hour if they monopolize a neighborhood (pretty good side job). Perhaps some high school kids should buy a blower and go into business on the weekends and vacation days and charge $100 per driveway. That would beat working at McDonalds.

One of the "educational" benefits of this thread is that motivated people can earn a heck of a lot of money (without a college education) by doing services that are in demand. So if you know someone that is stuck in a low paying job, then reading this thread could greatly improve their lives.

Wow....I am GLAD I live in South Florida where I was sweating so much yesterday grilling steaks, I jumped into the not-heated pool, just to cool down. If I had to spend that much for snow blowing, I would probably buy one myself.

Now, to start a "debate"...why did you "Tip" someone that just charged you $150 for 7 minutes work? How much do you tip your dentist, medical doctors, accountants, etc?



geekette said:


> I'd like to know 'how wives can be'?????



Without starting WWW 3, it is sufficient to say, that I significantly  "analyze" the cost-to-benefit ratio of purchases way more than she does and that she is very quick to pull out a credit card or pay for a service that I would have negotiated or shopped around.

Yes, she set up the window cleaners at my house and I paid the bill while she was out at the spa getting her weekly massage and nail treatments.


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## geekette (Dec 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Without starting WWW 3, it is sufficient to say, that I significantly  "analyze" the cost-to-benefit ratio of purchases way more than she does and that she is very quick to pull out a credit card or pay for a service that I would have negotiated or shopped around.
> 
> Yes, she set up the window cleaners at my house and I paid the bill while she was out at the spa getting her weekly massage and nail treatments.



Avoiding WW3 will require your confining spouse comments to YOUR WIFE.  I don't care how much you blast her - that's her problem.  General statements that encompass ALL WIVES, however, well, that's a problem.  Being a wife myself, I have found many of your wife comments quite offensive and demeaning.  

Please do not assume that all of us silly women just whip out a credit card to be done with something so we can get to the spa.  Some of us are the wage earners, financial planners, investors who don't have regular spa, hair or nail appts because we have larger concerns.  Like whether the benefit of window cleaning and snow removal justifies the cost versus doing it myself.


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## Mydogs2big (Dec 28, 2007)

C'mon Geekette, no one's trying to get you.  RELAX , we're all friends here and maybe one's feelings aren't another's but it's O.K. (you know how men are, right)


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## camachinist (Dec 28, 2007)

Yeah, foot, shoe, wear.....

Exactly how are men?  

Pat


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## mamiecarter (Dec 28, 2007)

*So lawyers charge more.*

At least you got clean windows. Lawyers charge more an hour and you are seldom sure what you are getting for your money.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 28, 2007)

geekette said:


> Avoiding WW3 will require your confining spouse comments to YOUR WIFE.  I don't care how much you blast her - that's her problem.  General statements that encompass ALL WIVES, however, well, that's a problem.  Being a wife myself, I have found many of your wife comments quite offensive and demeaning.
> 
> Please do not assume that all of us silly women just whip out a credit card to be done with something so we can get to the spa.  Some of us are the wage earners, financial planners, investors who don't have regular spa, hair or nail appts because we have larger concerns.  Like whether the benefit of window cleaning and snow removal justifies the cost versus doing it myself.



ok, for the record, I was referring to my wife as a singular and the stereotype non-working wives in Boca Raton (and Upper East Side NYC) as portrayed in the movie The Nannie Diaries. See that movie and you will know the type of women that I see everyday.

If you were truly offended, then I sincerely apologize.

I guess that you can't make any jokes or references to anyone except, rich, old, fat, non-jewish men and get away with it. I am not claiming to be in any of those groups, but everyone else in America seems to have a special interest group looking out for their interests. 

For example, why can Howard Stern say anything he wants, yet Don Imus gets crucified for his comments.....answer - Howard is half-jewish and has an Africian American woman working (for) with him. Also, I never listen to Imus (I actually don't like his humor), I just think he was singled out.


----------



## easyrider (Dec 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Now, to start a "debate"...why did you "Tip" someone that just charged you $150 for 7 minutes work? How much do you tip your dentist, medical doctors, accountants, etc?



The working man operating the plow works for the landscaper and gets paid hourly. He always shows up  when I need him and deserves to be tipped. The newspaper delivery guy,the mail lady, my stylist and other people making my life easier get a tip or holiday bonus from me. 

The big difference between the blue collar working people and the white collar working people is their perception of worth. Some white collar people look down on blue collar people because they never really had to physically work and because of their education they feel they should earn more. If you were trying to make a living cleaning windows you would probably feel differently about the amount you think you were overcharged. You probably never called the cleaners to ask for an explanation of charges and to let them know how upset you are , so your just still ranting in the dark.

I think my doctor and accountant would be insulted if I did tip them $10.00 but might appreciate a Christmas card. I think the guy plowing my driveway  appreciates $10.00 more than a card. 

Did anyone ever tip you when you were practicing medicine ? My wife thinks that you shouldn't be making fun of wives. Not all wives are ignorant.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 28, 2007)

easysider said:


> My wife thinks that you shouldn't be making fun of wives. Not all wives are ignorant.



This thread is about window cleaners, and my wife was the one that actually found the company...I am NOT making fun of wives...if people want to read into my posts, so be it, but that is NOT my intention.

Are you now implying that my wife (or other people's wife) is ignorant because she approved $275 per man hour to clean windows? I never used the word ignorant in any of my posts...hmmm perhaps this is a "Freudian slip" and the coffee is now calling the kettle black?


----------



## Mydogs2big (Dec 28, 2007)

Yes, all wives are ignorant, all husbands are stupid, teenagers are the worst, old people are senile, baby's are just that....and who cares?

It's just talk and we all have our own way of expressing things that we don't feel anyhow.  How many times have I said "Can't live with 'em......."  BUT I DO!

Let's all just take a lude and chill shall we? (which of course, I don't really mean)

By the way I think $275 hr to wash windows is outrageous!!  Then again if there were several people working on it at the same time or if you lived in a high-rise or if it were 20 degrees below zero or if you had to have it done right now before anyone who may have already been in line waiting..well I guess there could be many reasons why $275 hr could be justified.

The question really is, would you and could you have done it for $275 hr?  A lot of people "DONT DO WINDOWS" at all, or so I've heard!


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## Mydogs2big (Dec 28, 2007)

Wait, did you say (other people's wife)? 

Ha Ha Ha!  

Did you think someone else's wife might do something like that!!?

She's all yours! 

Ha Ha Ha!


----------



## stevedmatt (Dec 28, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Just for fun I decided to look up what a Florida doctor gets paid to perform an Appendectomy to save someone’s life.
> 
> First, look up the proper CPT code which is 44950
> 
> ...



What about the bill for someone who doesn't have insurance? I bet it is at least 10X that.

I wish I could read this whole thread, but I have better things to do, like wash my own windows (19) in my modest home.

Sorry if this has been answered, but did you get an estimate? If so, there is no reason for this thread. If you didn't get an estimate, why not?

And just because I am curious, in your mind, what should the actual window washer (not the company) earn per hour?


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 28, 2007)

stevedmatt said:


> What about the bill for someone who doesn't have insurance? I bet it is at least 10X that.
> 
> I wish I could read this whole thread, but I have better things to do, like wash my own windows (19) in my modest home.
> 
> ...



I have already addressed (and answered) every one one of your questions, except the question on someone without health insurance....this is a serious question that requires a serious answer.

HOWEVER, I would sincerely answer your questions, but you really blew it with your second sentence...thus, if you are too busy (i.e. lazy) to read the entire thread, then I will be too busy (i.e. can't be bothered) to assist you.


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## easyrider (Dec 29, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> This thread is about window cleaners, and my wife was the one that actually found the company...I am NOT making fun of wives...if people want to read into my posts, so be it, but that is NOT my intention.
> 
> Are you now implying that my wife (or other people's wife) is ignorant because she approved $275 per man hour to clean windows? I never used the word ignorant in any of my posts...hmmm perhaps this is a "Freudian slip" and the coffee is now calling the kettle black?



Heres to you and heres to me , but should we ever disagree, %#$@ you and heres to me !!!

Happy New Year Mr Bill.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 29, 2007)

easysider said:


> Heres to you and heres to me , but should we ever disagree, %#$@ you and heres to me !!!
> 
> Happy New Year Mr Bill.


 
Happy new year to you and everyone else...I am now in Stowe for the week (yeah) and it is very nice here.


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## camachinist (Jan 1, 2008)

For anyone who'd like to hear the "other side of the story" regarding contractor pricing for the "advantaged", read below:

http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=31514

Right outta the horse's mouth, so to speak 

Pat


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 1, 2008)

camachinist said:


> For anyone who'd like to hear the "other side of the story" regarding contractor pricing for the "advantaged", read below:
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=31514
> 
> ...




That was an interesting thread...here is a quote from one of their posters - 

"I say charge as much as you can, However, you should be charging everyone as much as you can. If people are willing to pay it, why not take it?"

Therefore, I MUST take the exact opposite attitude...."I will attempt to pay the least amount of money to get the job done and negotiate and haggle to get the best deal."

However, some of the posters agree that OVERCHARGING someone because you think they can afford it is wrong, unethical, and should not be done.

As I have posted before, I felt overcharged (and even ripped off), therefore, that business LOST a potential good customer as if they would have charged me a reasonable fee, I would have put them on my "call them again list" and they would be building a good business, not trying to conduct business by ripping off a bunch of new customer.

I think they refer to this as earning a slow quarter vs earning a fast dime.


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## laura1957 (Jan 2, 2008)

The price sounds outrageous to me - but how much WAS the estimate??  If it was close to the price charged - it was not a ripoff, no matter how overpriced it may have been.  I certainly cant imagine paying that much for someone to clean my window.


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## stevedmatt (Jan 2, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I have already addressed (and answered) every one one of your questions, except the question on someone without health insurance....this is a serious question that requires a serious answer.
> 
> HOWEVER, I would sincerely answer your questions, but you really blew it with your second sentence...thus, if you are too busy (i.e. lazy) to read the entire thread, then I will be too busy (i.e. can't be bothered) to assist you.



busy = lazy? .... I have a life. Instead of muddling through 160 posts, I thought you would be nice enough to summarize this thread to help me understand your side of this situation. I guess you already feel defeated. 

Seems to me you have spent way more time responding to this thread than you would have washing your windows. If you have enough money to be lazy and let someone else wash your windows, that's great. But if you are going to question someone else's work to earnings ratio, maybe you should not be so lazy and attempt to do their job to see if they deserve their wages.

Happy New Year!


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 2, 2008)

laura1957 said:


> The price sounds outrageous to me - but how much WAS the estimate??  If it was close to the price charged - it was not a ripoff, no matter how overpriced it may have been.  I certainly cant imagine paying that much for someone to clean my window.



I did not get a estimate as my wife set up the appointment and left me to pay the bill. This OBVIOUSLY is a learning experience and I will NEVER allow anyone perform any work without an estimate. 



stevedmatt said:


> busy = lazy? .... I have a life. Instead of muddling through 160 posts, I thought you would be nice enough to summarize this thread to help me understand your side of this situation. I guess you already feel defeated.
> 
> Seems to me you have spent way more time responding to this thread than you would have washing your windows. If you have enough money to be lazy and let someone else wash your windows, that's great. But if you are going to question someone else's work to earnings ratio, maybe you should not be so lazy and attempt to do their job to see if they deserve their wages.
> 
> Happy New Year!



I don't feel defeated at all...I am typing this from the comfort of my HCC property in Stowe after a fantastic day of skiing. 

If "YOU" don't want to read this thread, it is too long for me to easily summarize the many things that have been discussed just because "YOU" don't want to read it. That's fine with me, but don't comment on this situation until you know all the facts.

Yes, I have spent a lot of time on this topic, but it is NOT wasted as I learned a ton of things about "discretionary pricing" and will actually save money in the future as a result of this experience. 

Also, the politically correct term is "Window Cleaner" not window washer. I learned this after I posted the title of this thread. I already have a window cleaning kit and intend to clean my own windows in the near future and I will post about my experience after I do it...I figure that if it takes me 2-3 hours, then I actually will save $1,000 as the $550 I paid the window cleaners was after-tax income.

Yes, I have a nice lifestyle and income level, but earning (saving) $1,000 for a few hours work cleaning my own windows is definitely worth my time.

Happy New Year to you and all TUGers!


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## caribbeansun (Jan 3, 2008)

Bill - It would be helpful if you could just provide a point form listing of all the people/things you have a prejudice against and a listing of any material items that you possess that you'd like to brag about in order to save bandwidth and time.

Aren't you a moderator Bill?  Kinda ironic isn't it - shouldn't a moderator be moderate??


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## Luanne (Jan 3, 2008)

caribbeansun said:


> Bill - It would be helpful if you could just provide a point form listing of all the people/things you have a prejudice against and a listing of any material items that you possess that you'd like to brag about in order to save bandwidth and time.
> 
> Aren't you a moderator Bill?  Kinda ironic isn't it - shouldn't a moderator be moderate??



:rofl:   :hysterical:


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## camachinist (Jan 3, 2008)

Pass the popcorn


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

caribbeansun said:


> Bill - It would be helpful if you could just provide a point form listing of all the people/things you have a prejudice against and a listing of any material items that you possess that you'd like to brag about in order to save bandwidth and time.
> 
> Aren't you a moderator Bill?  Kinda ironic isn't it - shouldn't a moderator be moderate??



I don't think anything in this thread indicates that I am prejudiced against anyone, I just don't think "window cleaners" should charge $275 per man hour. I do however, think some people misread or misinterpret some of my posts.

As a side not, I have been busy cleaning the windows of my rental SUV several times a day for the past few days as I am in Stowe, Vermont and it is freezing cold and we had tons of snow. Now this is MUCH harder than cleaning windows in Florida as it is extremely cold outside.


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## Dave M (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I don't think anything in this thread indicates that I am prejudiced against anyone, I just don't think "window cleaners" should charge $275 per man hour.


To me, that statement reinforces the immediately preceding posts. 

Why shouldn't they charge what ever the market will bear? If what you have intended to say all along is that you would have done it differently if you could have done it all over again and would have ensured getting competitive quotes, that's okay. And it should stop there. But to suggest, as you have, that someone shouldn't charge a high rate because they don't have the kind of education you do seems to be nothing but prejudice. The comparisons you have made in this thread smack of your thinking that you are a better person than the window washer, and, by association, better than most of us, since most of us here don't have anywhere near as much formal education as you do. That hurts. 

I think that's why the frequent comments - throughout many of your threads - about your fancy expensive home with and the other assets you own or have owned and what you have paid for this and that really get to some of us. Those comments aren't necessary at all for timeshare discussions (the primary purpose of these forums) and they don't sit well. If you can't post on a topic without talking about something that demonstrates your obvious wealth, it might be worth reconsidering whether to post on the topic. 

It seems much like the person at a party who tries to impress people by throwing around names of celebrities he/she has met. (I haven't met any, at least none that I can remember.  )  

If an independent moderator or administrator thinks I'm out of line, I'll graciously accept being deleted and punished.


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## camachinist (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, I'll wash Bill's windows any day. Nothing like some hard labor to satisfy one's intellectual curiosity and make one wish they had finished their college degree 

Interestingly, as someone who isn't nearly as "successful", I don't find him condescending at all. Maybe that's because I'm quite satisfied with where I am in life. I take pleasure in the theater of the absurd 

Offer stands, Bill. You pick me up at the airport and share the generous hospitality I know you love to do. I'm always looking for interesting mileage runs 

Pat


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## geekette (Jan 3, 2008)

No, Dave, you are spot on: very accurate, very eloquent.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Pat....I will probably clean my own windows in the future.

To avoid people further misunderstanding my intentions, I will post it again as NOBODY has given me a satisfactory explanation:

Why should a window cleaner charge me $275 per man hour when all of the following (similar?) professions only charge about $30 per man hour (or less) - a landscaper, pool cleaner, gardener, house cleaner, car waxer, fertilizer, bug sprayer, baby sitter, etc.???

I was NOT the person that introduced medical costs to this thread, I only commented on them.

Also, would you feel the same way if a window cleaner charged $275 per man hour to a sweet old lady who needed her mobile home windows cleaned?


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## wackymother (Jan 3, 2008)

BILL! For god's sake. If you are going to pursue this endlessly, why the hell haven't YOU called other window-washing services to see what their estimates are like? Jeez. You must practically have your master's degree in theoretical window-washing by now.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Why shouldn't they charge what ever the market will bear?



Like a Westgate Orlando salesman?

I have posted dozens of examples of what other window cleaners charge ...$30-$50 per man hour with $100 per man hour as a max. I am shocked that  10 TUGers voted that they thought this was a reasonable rate...at least 30 people agree with me that I got ripped off.

This thread had ranged from serious to comical and has been fun, but people should realize that I am not window cleaning obsessed, but do enjoy a little soap opera in my life.


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## wackymother (Jan 3, 2008)

You've posted examples of what window washers charge IN THEORY, IN OTHER AREAS. You need direct comparisons in YOUR market, on YOUR house.


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## TUGBrian (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> To avoid people further misunderstanding my intentions, I will post it again as NOBODY has given me a satisfactory explanation:
> 
> Why should a window cleaner charge me $275 per man hour when all of the following (similar?) professions only charge about $30 per man hour (or less) - a landscaper, pool cleaner, gardener, house cleaner, car waxer, fertilizer, bug sprayer, baby sitter, etc.???



honestly?

I feel they charged you because you failed to ask up front what it would cost...and after they completed the work they felt you would pay regardless.

I am somewhat in awe that you solicited a service...had them come to your house and begin and complete the entire job before you asked what it would cost and or get that in writing.

Given this site is all about doing your homework before jumping into a financial decision head first....id say the mistake was yours.


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## ladycody (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I just don't think "window cleaners" should charge $275 per man hour.



My personal opinion on this is that: 

"I dont think "window cleaners should_* be able *_to charge $275 per man hour."  

I dont begrudge them earning it from those willing to pay it...but think that it's nuts that there are people who _will_ pay it.  I feel much the same way about actors and pro-ball players...especially when I look at some of the teachers in our school systems who can barely get by...

I also thought about bristling at Bill's remarks regarding his wife...and then realized that it was merely circumstance that his _wife_ was the person being discussed.  Had he asked his brother to arrange it for him, and had he made the same comments about his brother and been annoyed...there would very likely be nobody taking offense...so I got over my feminine self. 

(I took his comment about knowing "how wives can be" to be joking with affection mixed with maybe a bit of truth.  And he did say "how wives _can_ be"  not " how wives _are_."   If I made a comment in parenthesis and said "you know how husband's can be"...I dont think there would be a public outcry.     For instance I might say something about my husband being stone deaf when the tv is on...or that he cant find his own butt without asking me where it is first...or I might say it about husbands in general...or the male gender as a whole. )


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## camachinist (Jan 3, 2008)

Now he won't even accept window-washing for free. Divine justice, I say! 



> For instance I might say something about my husband being stone deaf when the tv is on...or that he cant find his own butt without asking me where it is first...or I might say it about husbands in general...or the male gender as a whole.



Thanks for answering the question I posed prior! If I were only like that, we wouldn't be in therapy  You know, comfortable shoes and all that....


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## Dave M (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Why should a window cleaner charge me $275 per man hour when all of the following (similar?) professions only charge about $30 per man hour (or less) - a landscaper, pool cleaner, gardener, house cleaner, car waxer, fertilizer, bug sprayer, baby sitter, etc.???


Simple answer: Because they can. As Brian indirectly suggests, you (and your family) are free to say, "No thanks" - next time. But there is no law preventing them from asking any amount they choose. 

Is it reasonable to charge a fee that equates to $275 an hour? That's for each individual to decide. But that should be based on perceived value for the project and competitive bidding, not on education. Incidentally, continuing to complain about value without obtaining competitive quotes as a reference point is a topic you have yet to adequately address in spite of multiple questions about it posed to you in this thread. That reinforces the impression I have that you value others' contributions based on their education or other "status" in life, not on how well they do their job. 

And complaining about them after the fact, when your designated subcontractor (Mrs. Bill) was the one who entered into the agreement, seems pointless.

I make a lot of mistakes. But in a nanosecond after realizing a mistake, no matter how serious, I almost always laugh about it and move on. Life for me is a lot more fun than obsessing about things that are finished or that I can't control.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

ladycody said:


> My personal opinion on this is that:
> 
> "I dont think "window cleaners should_* be able *_to charge $275 per man hour."
> 
> I dont begrudge them earning it from those willing to pay it...but think that it's nuts that there are people who _will_ pay it.  I feel much the same way about actors and pro-ball players...especially when I look at some of the teachers in our school systems who can barely get by...



Exactly....I too think teachers DESERVE to be paid more! Thus, this thread should be very educational for them and others as it clearly demonstrates that some professions are making huge amounts of money and it is much easier to learn window cleaning than it is to become a certified teacher.



camachinist said:


> Now he won't even accept window-washing for free. Divine justice, I say!



How about this...I will buy you lunch or dinner if you are in South Florida...I will be in Monterey in two weeks if you want to meet me there



Dave M said:


> Is it reasonable to charge a fee that equates to $275 an hour? That's for each individual to decide. But that should be based on perceived value for the project and competitive bidding, not on education. Incidentally, continuing to complain about value without obtaining competitive quotes as a reference point is a topic you have yet to adequately address in spite of multiple questions about it posed to you in this thread. That reinforces the impression I have that you value others' contributions based on their education or other "status" in life, not on how well they do their job.



We usually get our windows cleaned once per year as they really don't get that dirty. My wife usually handles setting up the appointment and writing the checks, I just fell into this as she was not here when they arrived. 

Getting quotes is a reasonable request, but that would be after the fact as I just had the job done, so I tried to get online quotes. Honestly, I never knew Window cleaners could charge so much :ignore:. Perhaps snow blowers, dog poop picker-uppers, or any other odd profession out there makes the same or more...I for one received a huge lesson with this experience as my wife now knows to always ask for a quote.

If you read my original #1 post, it was very simple...all the other stuff was a result of people asking me questions or me posting something to clarify my opinion.


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## wackymother (Jan 3, 2008)

Until you get specific, local quotes, from capable, insured companies, with recent references, that are actually ready, willing, and able to do the job, then you have no idea of the actual going rate in your area.


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## bobcat (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Exactly....I too think teachers DESERVE to be paid more! Thus, this thread should be very educational for them and others as it clearly demonstrates that some professions are making huge amounts of money and it is much easier to learn window cleaning than it is to become a certified teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems to me, Bill is having alot of FUN with this post. Some see him wasting time. Some see him with too much money. What ever it is, lighten up on the man. What ever he has ,he earned. What happened to POST NICE.?????


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## Sydney (Jan 3, 2008)

*Still going are we?*

We'll be paying over $450 for someone to come ad clean our house in a _regular _suburb. They will most likely take about 2 hrs. Sure it sounds like a lot and no doubt is but that is the going rate and the demand is there. We're also obviously willing to pay that amount. I wouldn't want to do it and we're too short on time at the moment to do it ourselves.

You know the old joke about paying someone a premium for expertise in their field? I've heard the joke applied to surgeons and engineers. Well maybe you can apply it to window cleaners- for being *willing *and *able *to clean other people's windows.

I agree with what Dave said except from my perspective what Bill has posted doesn't "hurt" or make me envious. It just amazes me (maybe because I'm Australian), that someone would boast so blatantly, commenting ad infinitum in detail regarding their so-called education, wealth, material possessions, connections, etc, etc, without a sense of embarrassment nor realizing just how crass and inappropriate it may seem to many reading such comments.

I wonder if it's just much more acceptable in the U.S. to advertise one's wealth and "status"? It's certainly not the "done" thing down under. In fact, such a person would most likely be pitied for being so socially "clueless".


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## Emily (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Exactly....I too think teachers DESERVE to be paid more!



But it doesn't matter who you (or I) think "Deserves" to be paid more or less.  

Senior citizens, people that send their kids to private school and anyone else that doesn't use teacher services, may not get excited about a tax increase to pay teachers more because you think they deserve it.  (This isn't a statement about teachers or their salaries)

Transactions are based on a good-will agreement between a buyer and a seller, whether goods or services.  All you have to do is not participate. 

You may get to the point where you don't care for washing your windows and have someone else do it for you or let them be dirty or try another window cleaner.  The window cleaners at the beach, 20 min south from where I live make good money but only work May - Sept. because the houses are summer residences.  They offer early-bird or off-season discounts.  

To be concerned, obsessed with what people are making is fruitless and a waste of time.  I found out a long time ago, I can't spend other people's money, I can just spend my own.  

As a side note . .  this thread started on Dec 13.  At that time the US $ index was $76.20, oil was $93.55 and gold was $802.30.  Not too far in the future, $275 might look like a good price.


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## camachinist (Jan 3, 2008)

> I wonder if it's just much more acceptable in the U.S. to advertise one's wealth and "status"? It's certainly not the "done" thing down under. In fact, such a person would most likely be pitied for being so socially "clueless".



I noted, in our visits to different parts of Australia in 2007, the descriptor of such being called a "tall poppy" and I noted Aussies seem to take much delight in humorously cutting them back down to size  A number of our fellow campers at Tamworth (the music festival) were owners of large companies and one would never have known (if we hadn't known them as friends prior) by their demeanor or descriptions of themselves. That's where I learned a bit about tall poppies and Aussie humor. Great stuff. I think you Aussie's got it right, on a number of fronts.

Pat


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

Emily said:


> To be concerned, obsessed with what people are making is fruitless and a waste of time.



I personally disagree with this statement as I would rather earn $275 per hour cleaning windows or $450 for two hours to clean homes in Australia, than work at McDonalds or Wal-mart. In fact, I would rather start a window cleaning business, snow blowing business, home cleaning business than be a public school teacher. 

Why are you against someone trying to determine if they paid a fair price or was ripped off?

TUG challenge - why do landscapers or car washers only charge $30 per hour and window washers charge almost 10x more. Gee...which job would you rather have?

Funny, but I have spent several days this week with a native Aussie as one of my Boca buddies owns a vacation home in Stowe has a wife that was born and raised in Australia...she never mentioned anything like tall poppies to me. Compared to our Boca friends, I am probably the least tall poppie of the bunch. We are meeting for breakfast tomorrow and I will try to remember this phrase.

Tall poppie syndrome - Australian slang for the tendency to criticize highly successful people (ie, tall poppies), and 'cut them down'.

I also find the voting for this thread interesting as there have been a tremendous amount of "Yes" votes in the past day. Also, this is the #1 most popular thread in the history of the TUG lounge in terms of posts and #2 in terms of page views. I personally think what people vote and what they would actually pay are two different things. Either way, the poll has interesting data.


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## Pat H (Jan 3, 2008)

*The Poll is Misleading!*

The Question is would YOU pay $275 per man hour to have your windows cleaned. I voted no because I only have 16 windows not because I thought YOU got ripped off.


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## wilma (Jan 3, 2008)

Sydney said:


> It just amazes me (maybe because I'm Australian), that someone would boast so blatantly, commenting ad infinitum in detail regarding their so-called education, wealth, material possessions, connections, etc, etc, without a sense of embarrassment nor realizing just how crass and inappropriate it may seem to many reading such comments.
> 
> I wonder if it's just much more acceptable in the U.S. to advertise one's wealth and "status"? It's certainly not the "done" thing down under. In fact, such a person would most likely be pitied for being so socially "clueless".



It is not acceptable here in the US to advertise one's wealth & status, it's considered boorish, obnoxious behavior. Many Tuggers have asked him to refrain from doing this, but he continues to bore us with this info.....


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## wackymother (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> II also find the voting for this thread interesting as there have been a tremendous amount of "Yes" votes in the past day. Also, this is the #1 most popular thread in the history of the TUG lounge in terms of posts and #2 in terms of page views. I personally think what people vote and what they would actually pay are two different things. Either way, the poll has interesting data.



Yes, I was waiting for you to get other job-specific, area-specific estimates so I could see how this price compared to the others. Since you're NOT going to get those estimates, I voted YES because in my area, it would be difficult enough to get reliable window washers to take on the job of washing my windows at any price. They would mostly be busy with people in 75-window houses. 

YES, I would pay $275 to get my windows washed, IF I had gotten other estimates and that was in the general range. YES, I would even pay $275 to get my windows washed IF I had gotten other, lower estimates, even much lower, but this particular company had impressed me as being the most competent and reliable. So YES! YES! A thousand times YEEEESSS!


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## geekette (Jan 3, 2008)

"TUG challenge - why do landscapers or car washers only charge $30 per hour and window washers charge almost 10x more. Gee...which job would you rather have?"

Supply and demand is my guess.  

I have never known any window washers, but have known many landscapers and horticulturists (sp?).  I've never met a window washer.  That doesn't mean much, but I have met a lot of people in a lot of different professions.  I suppose I don't actually know anyone that washes cars for a living, but I have known people that own car washing facilities, mostly franchise, but one guy that started and ran his own.  

Landscaping is a more, um, Obvious, Tangible profession.  Kids see mowers and people coming to water plants, etc., and many teens start their own business mowing lawns.  It's a crowded field.

Window washing, well, I've never thought much about it tho of course I have seen people washing windows.  There are many MANY landscaping companies around here but I cannot for the life of me name just one window washing operation.  So I looked in the Yellow Pages.  Here in metro Indy, 35 ww outfits advertise in YP, some with multiple locations.  In contrast, there are several PAGES of landscape companies, broken down into Architects, Contractors, Designers.  

I also don't think it's an hourly rate - it's a project rate.  What these guys actually make per hour is likely substantially less, after all the expenses.  If there are really only 2 guys in the operation, there could be very low overhead, but there is always overhead.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 3, 2008)

geekette said:


> Landscaping is a more, um, Obvious, Tangible profession.  Kids see mowers and people coming to water plants, etc., and many teens start their own business mowing lawns.  It's a crowded field.
> 
> If there are really only 2 guys in the operation, there could be very low overhead, but there is always overhead.



Perhaps this is the best explanation of all...supply and demand. No matter if I like it or not.

This thread is now on the first page of Google when someone searches "window washing rates" and hopefully some teenager will read this and decide to start a business themselves and make big bucks.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=window+washing+rates&btnG=Google+Search

I, on the other hand, will REBEL and clean my own windows until some of the millions of "undocumented workers" discover that they can create a HUGE business by only charging $50-75 per man hour cleaning windows. Hopefully, someone in some public service department will suggest this as a underserved profession that needs hard workers willing to work for cheap ($50-$75 per man hour). Heck, I should start a company myself just to show how easy it could be, and I can target the TUGers that votes Yes.


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## Jya-Ning (Jan 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I just had all the windows on my house cleaned (about 75 or so) *and the outside areas under the roof pressure cleaned (to get rid of those pesky round bus nests) today*.
> 
> Here is the invoice:
> 
> ...




The rate quoted by you is so misleading.  Window wish is $160 per person, or $4.3 per window

Bill: buy a power washer.  I would hate to see you use brush to try to beat $4.3 per window charge.  And climb the ladder up and down with no proper insurance.  I would love to hear your do-it-self window wash experience at the end of this year.

And consider your options
1. Let Wife Handle all
2. clean yourself

I would say your wife is very smart to pick a day to the spa.

Jya-Ning


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## Jya-Ning (Jan 3, 2008)

By the way, here is one link

http://www.fcc.net/premier/alba/house-cleaning-rates.htm

By their charge $8 per Window Exterior and $12 if Ladder needed, I would think your neighborhood may not be as good as this site's.  Sounds like definitely worth to form your company.

Jya-Ning


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## Fern Modena (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't flatter yourself.  This is nowhere near the most popular thread in the history of the TUG Lounge.  The TUG Lounge and its predecessor have been around for many years, long before you.  There have been other, more successful threads.  Old timers will remember the long intro thread we had, as well as others.

Fern



Steamboat Bill said:


> Also, this is the #1 most popular thread in the history of the TUG lounge in terms of posts and #2 in terms of page views.


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## ArtsieAng (Jan 4, 2008)

You paid $275 to get 75 windows cleaned that hadn't been cleaned in a year. Some of them are most likely second story, and may even be large, over-sized windows. In addition, you needed to have pressure cleaning done because you had bug nest's. Sounds to me like your windows may have needed more than the typical attention.

My opinion is that you paid a fair price for the job. You seem to be under-estimating just how difficult it is to get windows cleaned without streaking, etc. Especially windows that have not been cleaned for a year. I'm also guessing that the height, size, and difficulty getting to some of your windows came into play.

The amount of time it took to get this job done is irrelevant to the expertise, and quality of the job. They performed the job quickly because they have the knowledge, practice, equipment, and expertise to the job in a timely matter. 

If you yourself had attempted to clean your own windows, and remove the bug nests, it would have taken you God knows how long. I'm guessing that you wouldn't have done the job as well, and might have injured yourself in the process. It is not how long they took to do this job that matters, it's the quality of the job that counts. Another window company might have taken twice as long to complete the same job. Would that have made you feel better?

Would I have paid $275 to get my 75 windows cleaned. Yes, in a heart-beat. And, I wouldn't be crying about it, either.


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## caribbeansun (Jan 4, 2008)

And you got exactly the bill you DESERVED.

You're just miserable because you spent all those years dealing with people's dirty feet and people that are "undeserving" got the best of you, with all your education, three car garages, McMansion, HCC memberships, and all your other material possessions that you use as a hollow yardstick to measure the relative worth of the people that you encounter on a daily basis.

Based on this one encounter I'd say that you aren't worthy - I recommend that you donate all your ego inflating wealth to a worthy cause - perhaps the window cleaners local union hall.






Steamboat Bill said:


> Exactly....I too think teachers DESERVE to be paid more!


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 4, 2008)

Here is a recent news article on a window washer (sic) that fell 47 stories and lived. I am sure he does not make $275 per hour. Perhaps he (and others) should consider moving to Florida or Westchester as residential window cleaning is more lucrative and safer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_he_me/skyscraper_fall_survivor_1

To all the Steamboat Bill Haters out there - why should the big old bad window cleaner bossman make the big bucks and only pay his workers $10 per hour....it seems like $265 per man hour profit is a great business opportunity.

I also find it amusing how many people post on this thread with misinformation and are so hostile towards me. I guarantee if the original post was NOT written by me and was written by someone who posted that their sweet old mother was just charged $275 per single man hour ($550 total for two people to work one hour), people's attitude would be much different. Luckily I have a thick skin.


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## Elan (Jan 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I guarantee if the original post was NOT written by me and was written by someone who posted that their sweet old mother was just charged $275 per single man hour ($550 total for two people to work one hour), people's attitude would be much different.



   Not if their "sweet old mother" had posted on here about her $3K garage floor and $7K  garage cabinets.......:rofl:


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## The Conch Man (Jan 4, 2008)

Fern is right! I think Steam is doing this for that reason ~ Steam, why don't you take this topic & let the company who clean your windows know what you think so you can stop the crying! Maybe write it in the local newspaper under "What you think" so we all can get on with other things that may be of importance ~


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## Htoo0 (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't know you well enough to hate you. You may in fact be a nice guy who just likes to let people on the 'net know how well you're doing. It's just that there are lots of things which cost a lot of money when viewed on a "per man-hour" basis. The biggest problem I have with your attitude on this subject however is that you act as if you were ripped off. If your wife didn't ask for a quote or agreed to the price then I don't think you were cheated. Microsoft sells x-box games for $50+ which only cost about .50 to produce. I won't pay that much for them because it's not worth it to me but I can't say they're ripping anyone off. That's what they charge and you can choose to pay it or not. I don't go to Mickey Mouse Land for the same reason. Now if they quoted a much lower cost and then came up with some reason to bill you far more after they completed the work, (seems to be a common practice for some automotive repair shops for instance) I would say you had a reason to complain. BTW, people who can ill afford it get taken by home repair/fix-up scams all the time. Be thankful you could afford your lesson and enjoy cleaning your own windows in future.


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## Emily (Jan 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I personally disagree with this statement as I would rather earn $275 per hour cleaning windows or $450 for two hours to clean homes in Australia, than work at McDonalds or Wal-mart. In fact, I would rather start a window cleaning business, snow blowing business, home cleaning business than be a public school teacher.
> 
> Why are you against someone trying to determine if they paid a fair price or was ripped off?



If your desire is to make $275 an hour as a window cleaner or $450 an hour in Australia cleaning homes, your time would be better spent researching the necessary skills, tools, training for those positions rather than mullygrubbing about those that are making those fees.  Its a waste of time to whine.  In a few weeks you could have certainly honed some of those skills and made some of those $$$ that you are obsessing about.

But I'm guessing that you have no desire to become a house cleaner in Australia or a window cleaner in Boca but are just comparing a blue collars salary to yours and are uncomfortable with the close proximity.

As far as you being ripped off or paying a fair price - its done.  The time to have that discussion would have been with the window cleaner while he was at your property.  I know - your wife hired him but didn't you talk to him when he arrived?  Didn't you discuss what you wanted done? Screens removed?  Was the whole job done without your knowledge and you just show up to pull out the checkbook when its over?


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## geekette (Jan 4, 2008)

Elan said:


> Not if their "sweet old mother" had posted on here about her $3K garage floor and $7K  garage cabinets.......:rofl:



true that


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 4, 2008)

Elan said:


> Not if their "sweet old mother" had posted on here about her $3K garage floor and $7K  garage cabinets.......:rofl:



That was actually post #41 as I wanted to make a point that I am willing to pay high prices for valuable things or services I desire. 

One of the things that really cracks me up is that "most" TUGers are "very thrifty people" and some will not pay more than $500 for a deeded real estate timeshare property, yet 20 people voted that they would pay $275 per man hour to clean their windows. 

I somehow feel that this is misleading data and highly doubt that these same 20 people would really spend their "own" hard earned money for this exact service. Remember this is $275 per man hour, not for the entire job. I only have the outside windows cleaned and two men were her for one hour ($550 total invoice). I assume one did the work and the other was the assistant.

If people are really tired of this thread, why do they still post?

I personally think I am doing a HUGE public service in identifying a FANTASTIC opportunity for someone to make a ton of money. I highly doubt that the actual window cleaners (workers) are being paid more than $25 per man hour, thus SOMEONE is making a huge profit here. Yes, there are business expenses, but come on, this is not a retail store or a restaurant with high overhead expenses. 

I have ZERO desire to start a business that deals with landscaping, house cleaning, baby sitting, etc, but if I can start a window cleaning business and charge only $200 per man hour and then pay my workers $25-40 per hour, then it could be a very nice side income opportunity.

I thought I was ripped off, but apparently window cleaning businesses can make big bucks. This is pure American capitalism at work.


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## wackymother (Jan 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> One of the things that really cracks me up is that "most" TUGers are "very thrifty people" and some will not pay more than $500 for a deeded real estate timeshare property, yet 20 people voted that they would pay $275 per man hour to clean their windows.
> 
> I somehow feel that this is misleading data and highly doubt that these same 20 people would really spend their "own" hard earned money for this exact service.



So what are you saying, Bill? Are you saying that I am LYING because you can't believe that I would pay $275 to get my windows cleaned? Is that what you are saying?


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## stevedmatt (Jan 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Here is a recent news article on a window washer (sic) that fell 47 stories and lived. I am sure he does not make $275 per hour. Perhaps he (and others) should consider moving to Florida or Westchester as residential window cleaning is more lucrative and safer.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_he_me/skyscraper_fall_survivor_1



I would place a $275 wager on the fact that that window washer makes in the $80/hr range when you consider all of his benefits. I'm sure he is union in New York, and I think he deserves every penny for risking his life for his job.


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## Fern Modena (Jan 4, 2008)

_:::sigh:::_ You didn't pay $275. per man hour for window washing.  You "only" paid $325. for the window washing.  The rest was for a different job, power washing the eves, wasn't it?  I don 't understand why you keep using the incorrect, higher figure, even though you know its not accurate.

And as I mentioned before, most of the other jobs you mentioned are not hired "by the hour" here.  In fact, I asked you if they were where you lived, but you didn't answer.  I have a housekeeper, and she definitely works by the job.  My landscaper charged me over $1000. last time he visited.  But he's not a _gardener_, he's a landscaper, and he helped me redesign an area of my yard, choose plants, plant them, extend the drip system, balance the remaining landscape, etc.  The price I paid him was a bargain.  I'll employ his company for maintenence as well, and pay by the job, not the hour.  I have a handyman I use on occasion, and he charges by the job, too.  I prefer it that way.  He looks at the job, then tells me what it will cost.  If I think its worth it, he does it and I pay.  He's reasonable, and does things I don't want to, so we get along well.

So do most of the people you employ from time to time work by the job or by the hour?  Mine are all independent business owners, not casual workers, etc.

Fern


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 4, 2008)

stevedmatt said:


> I would place a $275 wager on the fact that that window washer makes in the $80/hr range when you consider all of his benefits. I'm sure he is union in New York, and I think he deserves every penny for risking his life for his job.



I also agree with you and I have made a clear distinction (in previous posts) between the high-rise window cleaners and the ones that clean 1-2 story residences.

However, he could 3x his salary and have much less risk if he relocated to Florida.

I am also surprised that CNN continues to refer to him as a "window washer" as this is a politically incorrect phrase as told to me by someone in the know. CNN should really be referring to him by the more correct "window cleaner" term. Either way, it was a very unfortunate accident.


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## easyrider (Jan 5, 2008)

Poor ole Steamboat has over paid

He should have hired a maid

Window pro`s make too much money

So he blames his dear honey

Now he might not get laid


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## caribbeansun (Jan 5, 2008)

Now, now did your feelings get hurt Bill - I don't think anyone hates you.  Some find you to be amusing in a kinda sad way.

Your self-justifying posts are what trigger a new round of posts - stop whining for goodness sake!  You whine about misinformation yet the very premise of your original post and even the title of the thread are misinformation - you didn't contract to pay an hourly rate of $275 - in fact you didn't contract to pay anything based on an hourly rate did you?  No - you/your wife agreed to pay a contract fee.  

Now your whining because it didn't take that long to complete the job, you're angry because they weren't inefficient enough to justify a higher amount and I will continue to contend that in fact what you are really angry about is that someone you consider to be unworthy was able to make more than you could with your lofty education.

Now you're whining about "the bossman" and why does he make more than the workers - seriously???  For someone that was going on about the American dream which you equate with making the green you are awfully naive about business.  Do we really need to go back and reread all those Ayn Rand books again?

And I'm quite sure that everyone that's posted here is part of a grand conspiracy to post negative things about you Bill - I'm sure that's it.  





Steamboat Bill said:


> To all the Steamboat Bill Haters out there - why should the big old bad window cleaner bossman make the big bucks and only pay his workers $10 per hour....it seems like $265 per man hour profit is a great business opportunity.
> 
> I also find it amusing how many people post on this thread with misinformation and are so hostile towards me. I guarantee if the original post was NOT written by me and was written by someone who posted that their sweet old mother was just charged $275 per single man hour ($550 total for two people to work one hour), people's attitude would be much different. Luckily I have a thick skin.


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## lawren2 (Jan 5, 2008)

easysider said:


> Poor ole Steamboat has over paid
> 
> He should have hired a maid
> 
> ...




:rofl: :hysterical: 

This has GOT to be the most creative and amusing post in this entire tiresome thread.

Thanks for the real belly laugh!


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 5, 2008)

easysider said:


> Poor ole Steamboat has over paid
> 
> He should have hired a maid
> 
> ...



That was awesome and very creative!!!...I am very impressed!!! 

Let's forget the debate if they deserve it...new question -> why would anyone want to work at a low paying entry level job if they could make so much more cleaning windows? Why are there ZERO classes in high school or college to advise students that this is a HUGE opportunity.

I went to the Ben & Jerry Ice cream headquarters tour yesterday in Vermont and learned that they got their start by taking a $5 correspondence Univ of Penn course on ice cream making and look at their success.

Imaging if high schools and colleges had courses in Window Cleaning 101 and the finer art of billing.

Just our of curiosity....am I the only person here that was surprised at how much money can be made cleaning windows?


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## camachinist (Jan 5, 2008)

> Just out of curiosity....am I the only person here that was surprised at how much money can be made cleaning windows?



Can't say if you're the only one, but, as someone who works in the trades, generally by job vs hour, I wasn't surprised at all. If you want to see some real action, follow a professional drywall crew around. Then you'll see how cheap your window washers really were 

Pat


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 5, 2008)

camachinist said:


> Can't say if you're the only one, but, as someone who works in the trades, generally by job vs hour, I wasn't surprised at all. If you want to see some real action, follow a professional drywall crew around. Then you'll see how cheap your window washers really were
> 
> Pat



ok...perhaps I underestimated this topic and at the risk of starting a new thread...what is the most lucrative trade job in terms of sustainable dollars per hour that can be learned without going to college or spending years in an apprenticeship?


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## Emily (Jan 5, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ok...perhaps I underestimated this topic and at the risk of starting a new thread...what is the most lucrative trade job in terms of sustainable dollars per hour that can be learned without going to college or spending years in an apprenticeship?



How about . . . mover, painter, drywaller, roofer, tree removal.  I'm not saying these jobs don't require training, knowledge . . but don't "require" trade school or college.  The mover would probably be the most lucrative, strictly in "gross" $$$ - just a guess.  Although the tree guy that was going to charge $800 to grind the stump in my yard 3" below the ground would probably be close.  We dug the stump out because we wanted it removed.


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## Passepartout (Jan 5, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...what is the most lucrative trade job in terms of sustainable dollars per hour that can be learned without going to college or spending years in an apprenticeship?



As a tradesman myself, I'd be interested to know any that exceed Skycaps who facilitate the degreed gentry bypassing the dreaded airport check-in line. In an earlier post, I found a link that states $100k/yr, though I've heard anecdotal reports that at some airports, $200k is more realistic. That sounds pretty sustainable to me..... and no pesky foreman skimming like a maitre'd or doorman skimming tips from valet parking guys or the guy who arranges, oh, say, window cleaning with unsuspecting housewives of the wealthy.

Jim Ricks


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## Fern Modena (Jan 5, 2008)

I think Steamboat has me on his "ignore list" since he never answers me, but... any unionized trade job is lucrative, but often dependent on seasonal conditions, the economy, etc.  I worked in the transit field for years, and many of our passengers would have been surprised to know what drivers made (although it was a public agency, and therefore publicly available info).  Transit Operators (bus drivers to you) have many opportunities to work overtime and days off.  With standby time, report time, etc.  its quite possible to earn over $100K a year.  But remember,  we're not talking about 40 hour weeks here.  More like 80 hour weeks, week in, week out.  Many/most full time transit operators work 11:59 minute "spreads" every day, leaving home before sun up and arriving home after sun down in the wintertime.

Fern



Steamboat Bill said:


> ok...perhaps I underestimated this topic and at the risk of starting a new thread...what is the most lucrative trade job in terms of sustainable dollars per hour that can be learned without going to college or spending years in an apprenticeship?


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 5, 2008)

Fern Modena said:


> And as I mentioned before, most of the other jobs you mentioned are not hired "by the hour" here.  In fact, I asked you if they were where you lived, but you didn't answer.  I have a housekeeper, and she definitely works by the job.



I am NOT ignoring you...I was traveling from Stowe, Vermont to South Florida and only had limited time at the airports with my Wi-Fi connection.

I have used both methods in the past and I personally think an hourly rate is the MOST fair to both parties, but not everyone will do this and let's forget about any debate for fast vs slow workers.

My lawn crew (three guys once per week) charges a monthly fee and I think I am getting the better deal as I have a large lawn and his rates are very fair as he also does several of my neighbors. However, when I need additional things done like seasonal plantings, extra trimming, mulching, hanging Christmas lights, he charges me a flat $30 per man hour.

We have two housekeepers that we pay a set hourly rate and we also pay them when we are on vacation (and we take a lot of vacations), if one wants time off for a particular reason, then they don't get paid. We have had the same two for about 8 years and in South Florida that is very rare.

When I get a car wash/wax, it is a set price. When we use a baby sitter is is an hourly rate. When I get a haircut is is a set price, etc.

Although I prefer to pay an hourly rate, many things are priced as a project. I would not have even balked at paying two guys $550 to clean my windows and pressure spray a few bug nests if it was "truly" a several hour job, but when they finished the job in one hour, I was shocked. Trust me, these guys are no better or faster than anyone else, I just think I was overcharged....no problem...chalk one up for the small guy. 

I am NOT against anyone making a decent living and I have paid top dollar for many services and products in the past, it is just this single incident that ruffled my feathers.

I am all for the American capitalistic marketplace, I am amazed at how much this single profession can make (charge). Yes, there are probably dozens of other "surprise high paying jobs" and that is th great thing about the USA...there is opportunity if you know where to look. On the other hand, when I look thru my kids school directory that lists the dads profession (99% of the wives don't work) I did not see one single window cleaner, but there were lots of attorneys, physicians, accountants, real estate developers, hedge fund managers, etc.


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## stevedmatt (Jan 6, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Although I prefer to pay an hourly rate, many things are priced as a project. I would not have even balked at paying two guys $550 to clean my windows and pressure spray a few bug nests if it was "truly" a several hour job, but when they finished the job in one hour, I was shocked. Trust me, these guys are no better or faster than anyone else, I just think I was overcharged....no problem...chalk one up for the small guy.



I don't know why I continue to revisit this thread and help to keep it alive. I guess I am intrigued by your lack of class and feeling of superiority.

If you would not have balked at paying two guys $550 to do that job if it took them 3 hours, why do you care that it only took them 1 hour? Did they complete the job in a workmanlike manner? Would you rather have them mess around and take a couple extra hours?

And why should I trust your opinion that "these guys are no better or faster than anyone else"? You haven't obtained any other quotes or had any other _window cleaners_ perform this service for you in the past. I don't think you are qualified to make this statement.

And if that isn't enough, "chalk one up for the small guy" just sits you up on a pedestal high about your 75 window house and that small guy.

No one is better than you at anything and no one deserves to make anywhere near what you have been able to make due to your superior education.:hysterical:


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 6, 2008)

stevedmatt said:


> I don't know why I continue to revisit this thread and help to keep it alive. I guess I am intrigued by your lack of class and feeling of superiority.



That is, of course, your opinion (i.e. not a fact).



stevedmatt said:


> If you would not have balked at paying two guys $550 to do that job if it took them 3 hours, why do you care that it only took them 1 hour?



Because they "artificially" inflated the "job price" once they drove up my driveway and felt like they could "stick it to me". This is not the first, nor will it be the last, time it happens. I just lost the battle this time (partially due to my wife), but I will not lose the war (pun intended).

Let me put it to you in a MORE extreme way. Let's propose that they charged me $5,000 for one man hour of work to clean my windows...do you still think that would be a fair price? That's why I like to use a combination of cost per man-hour vs cost per job. They are not always the same and one party is at a disadvantage. 

I guess my "bias" comes from seeing how physicians are paid under an HMO system where doctors get paid a set amount of money for the entire month and any procedures/treatments are taken out of that total. It creates a system where if you are a good doctor and order tests and treat people right, you actually make less money than a bad or unscrupulous doctor. Pricing by the job that is difficult to quantify reminds me of dealing with an HMO.

Here is another example: At my previous home, I "used" to buy maintenance contracts for my house appliances and A/C units until I saw how poorly they treated me after I bought the contract. No more...now if I need an A/C service call or if my dishwasher goes on the blink, I call someone and pay by the hour or just have it repaired. I found most service contracts were for suckers and it was cheaper in the long run to avoid them and practice good maintenance and just pay for service as I need it. 



stevedmatt said:


> And why should I trust your opinion that "these guys are no better or faster than anyone else"? You haven't obtained any other quotes or had any other _window cleaners_ perform this service for you in the past. I don't think you are qualified to make this statement.



Fair enough.....that is my "opinion" just like your "opinion" of me is a person with a lack of class and feeling of superiority. However, in my old house it was MUCH cheaper to have my windows cleaned and I had almost as many  windows in my old house (but the value of the house was 1/4 of my current home).



stevedmatt said:


> No one is better than you at anything and no one deserves to make anywhere near what you have been able to make due to your superior education.:hysterical:



Well...thank you!....but that is your "opinion" of me...and I don't share that same belief as I have never posted anything close to that statement. For the record, I feel your assessment of me is incorrect.

As much as this thread boarders on the absurd, I am sure any TUGer that has read the entire thread will get a written quote from several people if they ever need window cleaning.


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## Luanne (Jan 6, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Because they "artificially" inflated the "job price" once they drove up my driveway and felt like they could "stick it to me".



How do you know that?  I thought you said your wife never got an estimate.


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## Rascal5046 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Window cleaners charging $275.00 per hour.*

Biil,
I pretty much agree with just about everything you have said, and no I am not rich or make lots of money. My salary is $47,000.oo per year. But, most of all, I am happy with my life and myself. Yes, one of these days, maybe I will be making more, if not, oh well.

There are a lot of TUGger's who have been posting to your post, either not reading all of it, skimming through as someone else said. I have read all of them, mostly for fun, because I could, some of them because I couldn't beleive the way people were reacting. Some of them were just being real jerks. Hopefully, I will never run into you people in life, and you should know who you are by now.

Sounds to me like there are a lot of jeolous fellow Tuggers out there. And this is my personal opinion.

And yes, $275.00 per hour for washing windows is to much, whether you make $500,000.00 per year or $20,000.00. You got ripped off.



QUOTE=Steamboat Bill;444619]Like a Westgate Orlando salesman?

I have posted dozens of examples of what other window cleaners charge ...$30-$50 per man hour with $100 per man hour as a max. I am shocked that  10 TUGers voted that they thought this was a reasonable rate...at least 30 people agree with me that I got ripped off.

This thread had ranged from serious to comical and has been fun, but people should realize that I am not window cleaning obsessed, but do enjoy a little soap opera in my life.[/QUOTE]


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## naudette (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with Rascal.  I can't believe how mean, petty and hateful some of the posts are.  I've read every one and just laugh on how this keeps going.

I thought the premise was that we were supposed to be supportive, friendly and have a good time.  That doesn't mean we can't have different opinions.  Yet, time after time I read nasty responses.  One was directed to me in the Mexico forum because of how we choose to travel and what we own.  But that's another topic in itself.

If I spoke to friends the way some people have spoken to others here in any of the forums, I wouldn't have any. 

In any good debate, one can have differing views, yet not be hateful and mean.  Let's get back to the basic: treat others as you would like to be treated.  This is not a matter of life or death...get a sense of humor and lighten up.

I'm just saying....


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## jwq387 (Jan 7, 2008)

*window washing rates*



Steamboat Bill said:


> I just had all the windows on my house cleaned (about 75 or so) and the outside areas under the roof pressure cleaned (to get rid of those pesky round bus nests) today.
> 
> There were two guys doing the work and they had a high pressure machine and a nice truck.
> 
> ...



I used to manage lawn care companies. When some customers complained about being charged $50 for a lawn care treatment that took only 15 minutes, my usual response is "you are not only paying for the work we do,but the results we guarantee. We will come back out at no extra charge to reapply if you are not getting the results you desire." PRessure washing by itself in Bluffton, just outside Hilton Head, is about $225 for a small, 1400 ft2 home. Is it unreasonable to think window washing couldn't be an extra $325?


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## geekette (Jan 7, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Let's forget the debate if they deserve it...new question -> why would anyone want to work at a low paying entry level job if they could make so much more cleaning windows? Why are there ZERO classes in high school or college to advise students that this is a HUGE opportunity.



Because I'd rather be in a nice clean office making money with my brain, rather than up a ladder slopping around in bug juice and window slime.  I can work up the corporate ladder, after all.

Biggest danger in an office?  Disgruntled employee shooting up the place.  Very rare.  Biggest danger up that ladder?  Falling to my death.  

Risk vs reward?  I'll skip the reward by accepting lower risk.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jan 7, 2008)

Rascal5046 said:


> I pretty much agree with just about everything you have said, and no I am not rich or make lots of money. And yes, $275.00 per hour for washing windows is to much, whether you make $500,000.00 per year or $20,000.00. You got ripped off.



Wow...I love your post. People from North Carolina are so nice and I love that part of the country. I visited Mountain Air, NC 6 months ago and loved it...the golf was awesome!!! My family used to own property in Sugar and Beech mountain when I was a kid and I have fond memories of summers and fall trips to Boone, NC.



njwhite said:


> I agree with Rascal.  I can't believe how mean, petty and hateful some of the posts are.  I've read every one and just laugh on how this keeps going.
> 
> In any good debate, one can have differing views, yet not be hateful and mean.  Let's get back to the basic: treat others as you would like to be treated.  This is not a matter of life or death...get a sense of humor and lighten up.



Another awesome post...and I agree with you that this is a debate with many different points of view...if 20 TUGers want to pay $275 per man hour for window cleaning, more power to them!



jwq387 said:


> Pressure washing by itself in Bluffton, just outside Hilton Head, is about $225 for a small, 1400 ft2 home. Is it unreasonable to think window washing couldn't be an extra $325?



That is a great rate, but you are assuming that I had the entire house (walls and roof) pressure cleaned. They only pressure washed about 10-15  areas of very small bug nests from the soffet of the roof line with a pressured hose that took them about 15 minutes to do the entire house. No ladder was required for that job and I assume the assistant was in charge of the hose. I could have done it myself, but I don't own a pressure washer.



geekette said:


> Because I'd rather be in a nice clean office making money with my brain, rather than up a ladder slopping around in bug juice and window slime.  I can work up the corporate ladder, after all.



I like your "ladder references" and I too think office work is better than manual labor, but I think there is a HUGE opportunity for people to start their own window cleaning business and hire other people to work for them, Thus, you can still be in a nice clean office making money with your brain and having other people work for you.

Hopefully, someone will realize that I am NOT against the low paid workers cleaning my windows, just the rates set by the bossman.

Starting your own business is not for everyone, but it gives the greatest opportunity to make a lot of money and is not 100% dependent on your  school education, you just need a good idea and an entrepreneurial spirit.

A service orientated business such as cleaning windows and pressure washing appears to a golden opportunity that someone reading this thread should seize upon.


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## geekette (Jan 7, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...Starting your own business is not for everyone, but it gives the greatest opportunity to make a lot of money and is not 100% dependent on your  school education, you just need a good idea and an entrepreneurial spirit.
> 
> A service orientated business such as cleaning windows and pressure washing appears to a golden opportunity that someone reading this thread should seize upon.



It's not for everyone because there is a large amount of sales involved.  You have to have the customers to make the money.  A guy and his pressure washer aren't going to magically make money.  Self-promotion is a job in itself, and a tiny offshoot of the overall marketing plan.  Pricing, which this thread really centers on, is very difficult to get right.

My personal belief is that the self-employed need to be good at many more things than the core skill they are trying to make money on.  Many small businesses fail quickly when the owner finds out how much more is involved, or find they aren't good at the bookkeeping or expense management or finding good workers, etc.  It's quite consuming.  

Seed money is another thing that dissuades many people.  There could be many months of no income, which could spell doom, even if there's no overhead beyond the sunk costs of equipment.  

I learned long ago that I want an employer.  Someone to pay me regularly, find inexpensive health care for me, pay life insurance, retirement plan match, etc.  I also don't want to have to take a laptop on vacation or be required to be instantly reachable all the time.  The biggest problem for me in being self-employed?  Getting the clients.  I do not like selling and am therefore not very good at it.  To each his own.  Sure, for the right people in the right circumstances, this could be a great opportunity.


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## Sonlight (Apr 4, 2008)

*Pricing*

Hi Bill,

My name is Steve and I am the owner of Sonlight Window Cleaning Co.  I am sorry to hear that you feel you were overcharged by the window cleaners in your area.  I hate to hear of overcharged customers, but in this case I think you might need to reconsider.  You stated that you were not unhappy with the total cost of the job, just the fact that they did it so quickly.  We charge by the job because most people are afraid to pay an hourly rate to a company without some definite cost in mind.  

You fail to calculate the cost of doing business when you complain about the price you were charged.  You said that Lowe's sells a power washer for $1,000.  Do you realize that is not a professional model and the low end professional units cost around $3500 and that's without a hot water burner?

Of course that is just one machine and doesn't include the cost of maintenance on it, liability insurance, vehicle insurance, the outrageous cost of workers comp insurance, OSHA compliance costs, payroll taxes, fuel, cleaning supplies, chemicals, yellow pages ad, telephone lines, office expenses, payroll, licenses, and fees.

It is also probable that in addition to the power washer, your two man team also had invested in ladders.  Specialized window cleaning ladders are around  700 bucks now.  And you didn't mention if your crew was using a water fed pole which is the latest technology in window cleaning and costs around $2,000-$4,000 to acquire, but allows us to get the job done safer and quicker.

In all probability your two man crew made a profit of $247.50 after expenses.  You might find that still too much but it need not worry you because You are going to clean your windows yourself, right?  Go for it.  

You'll want to be careful though because certain windows are very prone to scratch if you don't know what you are doing or don't use the right methods.  Also be careful on that slippery, soapy homeowners ladder that you buy at Lowes for $119, that will flex like a slinky as you climb it.  You might save a $1000 bucks only to pay it out in back surgery after your nasty fall.

One more word of advice Bill, when pressure washing the soffit on your house, be careful that you don't blow a hole in it by using the wrong pressure setting or the wrong tip on the wand.  That repair alone could cost you $500!  And be sure to avoid permanently streaking the siding of your home because you used the wrong chemical ratio or didn't apply the chemicals properly.

Just some friendly advice from a humble window washer who never went to college but does OK for himself because he knows how to work, Bill.  Try it and see for yourself what easy money it is.  You'll think twice about complaining again.  You have my word on that. 

Steve


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## barndweller (Apr 4, 2008)

Here Here, Steve! Very well said. Thank you.


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## JLB (Apr 4, 2008)

But, do you have a jet?   

&

I can't believe this is still going on.   

&

That this is my first post on it!


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## GrayFal (Apr 4, 2008)

JLB said:


> But, do you have a jet?
> 
> &
> 
> ...


*Priceless :hysterical: *


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 4, 2008)

Sonlight said:


> My name is Steve and I am the owner of Sonlight Window Cleaning Co.



This thread is like a bad hot dog eaten for lunch that you end up burping up later in the day. I will be a good sport and participate again.

Steve deserves a free plug.....Sonlight Window Cleaning. You sound very reputable and professional with modern equipment and I wish you the best in pursuing the American Dream.

I now believe the guys that were at my house were more like window washing gypsies (not true professionals) as they had NONE of the fancy equipment you describe. It was the same equipment and ladders available at Home Depot, etc.

One thing I would be concerned with in this business is the potential competition from (non-professionals). When you see all the (non-professionals) working in the landscaping business, car detailing, home/office cleaning crews, hotel/timeshare maid services....it is only a matter of time until they discover how much money can be made cleaning windows and they ultimately will drive prices down by undercutting the established players. Perhaps it will happen in places like California, Texas, and Florida way before Kentucky, but those days are coming sooner than later.


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## Avery (Apr 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> This thread is like a bad hot dog eaten for lunch that you end up burping up later in the day. I will be a good sport and participate again.
> 
> Steve deserves a free plug.....Sonlight Window Cleaning. You sound very reputable and professional with modern equipment and I wish you the best in pursuing the American Dream.
> 
> ...



AGAIN with the inflammatory [bigoted] statements? We all know you have a stick up your windows about immigration, but it is  inappropriate here and you know it, not that another Mod would want anything to do with this ridiculous thread.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 4, 2008)

Avery said:


> AGAIN with the inflammatory political statements? We all know you have a stick up your windows about immigration.



You are clearly oversensitive to this issue. My post is NOT intended to be inflammatory and it has nothing to do with politics. It is simply based upon my observations of various workers in various fields of employment.

What term should I use to describe people that were not born in the USA that would satisfy you?

Besides, my wife is an immigrant who was born overseas and English is not her native language, so I am clearly for immigration. I also teach a medical school class on minority medicine topics.


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## Kay H (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Steve,
It was a pleasure to read your honest well written post  I wish you much success in your job.  Your points were well taken.  Too bad you didn't write it 242 posts ago and possibly kept the constant complaining to a minimum.

Welcome to TUG.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 4, 2008)

Kay H said:


> It was a pleasure to read your honest well written post  I wish you much success in your job.  Your points were well taken.  Too bad you didn't write it 242 posts ago and possibly kept the constant complaining to a minimum.



Well said......

For the record, I live in a melting pot of the USA and have many friends of mixed colors, races, and languages. I am as far from a racist as you can get and my two children are bi-racial. I get into serious discussions about race relations, immigration, H1B visas, etc. on a daily basis. I am not trying to turn this thread (or the one on college tuition for in-state students) into anything political (I am actually bored with politics) as I am just posting facts.

I wish Steve great success in his window cleaning business and would advise him to open a satellite office in my neck of the woods as we can use good professionals down here. However, any profession in the US that relies on manual labor is being dominated by certain individuals. Like it or not, that is the changing evolution of our countries work force. Steve can adapt, change, or embrace the change, or risk a decline in his business from increased competition. Enough said.

Can I interest anyone in some......hot dogs?


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## Avery (Apr 4, 2008)

Oy. 


goodnight.


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## Fern Modena (Apr 5, 2008)

Me thinks he doth protest too much.


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## geekette (Apr 5, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...I wish Steve great success in his window cleaning business and would advise him to open a satellite office in my neck of the woods as we can use good professionals down here. However, any profession in the US that relies on manual labor is being dominated by certain individuals. Like it or not, that is the changing evolution of our countries work force. Steve can adapt, change, or embrace the change, or risk a decline in his business from increased competition. Enough said....



Oh gees.  Rare that I'm ever close to being speechless...  For all your preamble I'm just amazed that you then trot out a stereotype.  whatever.

Maybe Steve can continue to provide a superior product and others can go with the low cost bid from your "gypsies" who you say charged too much, and we'll have another 200 posts about "I paid X per window but I wasn't satisfied with the job" and then "I paid X + Y and am thrilled!"  and then "The bid was Y - X but that was still too much so I tried it myself, fell and broke my arse, and X * Y later, my windows are still dirty cuz I had to spend the money on the doctors, pain meds, splints and the windows I broke..."

Look, bottom line is when you're going to pay someone to do a job for you, it's worth checking references.  Here, we have Angie's List, a reference book containing professionals that are highly recommended in our area BY CONSUMERS.  Do a good job and treat your customers right, you're on the list.  Do a bad job or charge more than your service merits or have other unprofessional traits and you aren't on the list.  Pretty simple.  We always start with Angie's List when we need a pro.  

If this doesn't exist in your area, ask around.  good chance someone has also used a company to perform the service you are seeking - word of mouth is extremely valuable to the small businessperson.  If you don't do your homework and just select someone from the A's in the Yellow Pages, well, you get what you get.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jul 11, 2008)

*Summer Update*

At the danger of digging up this old thread...I wanted to share how I solved my window cleaning dilemma.

I hired a high school senior who was looking for some part time work.

He worked for 3 hours cleaning all my windows (without a ladder) as I bought a spray hose and squeegee with long handles. It took him 3 hours to clean all the windows by himself and the job was very good, but not as good as the "pros". I would rate it at 85% as compared to a 100% perfect job...not bad for the first time he has ever done this.

He then did some minor weeding and clean-up around my house that the gardeners never seem to get to and spend another 2 hours here.

He quoted me $12 per hour, but I paid him $20 per hour ($100 total) and even bought him lunch at Chipolte Grill and he was VERY HAPPY.

Thus, this is a case where both parties were very pleased with the transaction.


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## BenBrigman81 (Jul 23, 2012)

*Ben*



Sonlight said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> My name is Steve and I am the owner of Sonlight Window Cleaning Co.  I am sorry to hear that you feel you were overcharged by the window cleaners in your area.  I hate to hear of overcharged customers, but in this case I think you might need to reconsider.  You stated that you were not unhappy with the total cost of the job, just the fact that they did it so quickly.  We charge by the job because most people are afraid to pay an hourly rate to a company without some definite cost in mind.
> 
> ...


I spent 50 years as a window cleaner and can agree with everything Steve said. I can remember years ago when I was doing belt work and I went into this mans office and climbed out his window and hooked up to do the outside of the window. When I came back inside, the man said that he wouldn't do that for $100 an hour. I told him that I hoped he felt the same way when he got the bill. MY youngest son is a window cleaner and he has been in business for 25 years. He also runs into customers that seem to think they have been overcharged but haven't taken the time to find out the overhead for anyone in business. The workmens comp for a window cleaner is outrageous. This is not accounting for the danger. I had 3 window cleaning friends that died from falls and since I was a high-rise window cleaner, I had some close-calls through the years.


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## ace2000 (Jul 23, 2012)

BenBrigman81 said:


> I spent 50 years as a window cleaner and can agree with everything Steve said. I can remember years ago when I was doing belt work and I went into this mans office and climbed out his window and hooked up to do the outside of the window. When I came back inside, the man said that he wouldn't do that for $100 an hour. I told him that I hoped he felt the same way when he got the bill. MY youngest son is a window cleaner and he has been in business for 25 years. He also runs into customers that seem to think they have been overcharged but haven't taken the time to find out the overhead for anyone in business. The workmens comp for a window cleaner is outrageous. This is not accounting for the danger. I had 3 window cleaning friends that died from falls and since I was a high-rise window cleaner, I had some close-calls through the years.



First, you're reviving a very old thread here (going back to 2007).  However, the original question "would you pay someone $275 per hour to wash your windows?"  I would not.  I don't think anyone is dissing your line of work.  The question is what is a fair price.

Are you saying that's a fair price to charge?  It does seem high to me.


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## BenBrigman81 (Jul 23, 2012)

*Ben Brigman*

Considering the overhead costs, I do think it was fair. Don't forget the traveling time.


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## ace2000 (Jul 23, 2012)

BenBrigman81 said:


> Considering the overhead costs, I do think it was fair. Don't forget the traveling time.



I'll agree with the guy in your previous post.  I wouldn't want to do it.  However, I'll never have a house with 75 windows either.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 23, 2012)

I like the high school student alternative.  $100 vs. $325 is a win-win.

Do the professional cleaning every once in a while when you need a really good job done.   It's like paying for auto detailing vs. a high school car wash.


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## DeniseM (Jul 23, 2012)

Just so you know - this thread is from 2007.


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## easyrider (Jul 23, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Just so you know - this thread is from 2007.



   Its kind of a fun thread even as old as it is.

Bill


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## presley (Jul 23, 2012)

Ben is a genius.


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## DeniseM (Jul 23, 2012)

easyrider said:


> Its kind of a fun thread even as old as it is.
> 
> Bill



It's probably a set-up for a spammer or shill - this brand new poster searched the internet for "window washing," found this very old thread and added 3 posts (1 was a duplicate that I deleted.)  This is typical spammer/shill behavior.  He or someone else will be back with an endorsement of some window washing company.

Since the thread is 5 years old, and Bill is long gone, it's kind of pointless...


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## Ken555 (Jul 23, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Since the thread is 5 years old, and Bill is long gone, it's kind of pointless...



Besides, who washes their windows? Certainly not any of the timeshares I've been to recently.. :hysterical:


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## ace2000 (Jul 23, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> This is typical spammer/shill behavior.  He or someone else will be back with an endorsement of some window washing company.



Charging $275 per hour?  :hysterical:


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