# My Thoughts on the Safety of the Boeing 737 Max 8



## MULTIZ321 (Mar 11, 2019)

My Thoughts on the Safety of the Beoing 737 Max 8
By Ajay/ Live From a Lounge/ livefromalounge.boardingarea.com

"Just yesterday, Ethiopian Airlines had an unfortunate crash of a Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, shortly after takeoff from Addis Ababa, on its way to Nairobi. 157 people lost their lives, including 149 passengers and 8 crew in this tragic incident. This comes very close after Lion Air had a similar incident about 5 months ago, where another Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft crashed as well.

Now, I know that there is a huge amount of correlation between the nature of the two incidents, and the fact that both occurred on practically brand new aircraft. But the first piece of advice I’ve been giving everyone is not to speculate. In the times of social media, everyone becomes an expert on every issue, but that, unfortunately, is not the solution to our problems.

The Boeing 737 MAX is a redesigned version of the Boeing 737, which is the workhorse of many airlines globally. Over 10,000 Boeing 737 aircraft fly around the globe, and the aircraft has had a successful safety record.

The new aircraft, the Boeing 737 MAX, entered service in 2017. With newer technologies and design specs, and more fuel-efficient design, the aircraft could go further and spend less fuel while getting there. Which, in airline economics means, the path to the profitability of an airline/route. At the moment 350 of these aircraft are in service, with over 5,000 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft on order.

In India, SpiceJet and Jet Airways are the two Boeing customers for the 737 MAX range. SpiceJet has 205 on order, including their options, and Jet Airways has 225 on order....."





First delivery of 737 MAX to Jet Airways.


Richard


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## clifffaith (Mar 11, 2019)

The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights. I thought that was bad PR, at least until they have an idea of why the Ethiopian plane crashed.


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## x3 skier (Mar 11, 2019)

I have zero fear of flying any US Major Airline regardless of the make and model.  OTOH I would never fly Allegiant knowing what I know about their maintenance procedures and I’m getting a bit suspicious about Southwest.

The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes.  With the unprecedented expansion of airlines around the world, I suspect the quality of people entering the system has failed to match the sophistication of the designs.

Cheers


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## PigsDad (Mar 11, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights. I thought that was bad PR, at least until they have an idea of why the Ethiopian plane crashed.


Southwest allows no-fee cancellation and/or change of any flight; that is one of the major benefits with Southwest.  Terrible reporting on the news you were watching.  What network was it?

Kurt


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## Chrispee (Mar 12, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes.
> Cheers



I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?


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## dougp26364 (Mar 12, 2019)

I keep thinking back to the 1971 Chicago crash of an AA DC 10, the reporting, the grounding of that fleet of planes, the blame and the eventual conclusion.

It’s important not to jump to conclusions. Irreprable damage can be done. But that’s human nature and with today’s social media it will be like a wildfire in dry conditions and high winds.


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## AJCts411 (Mar 12, 2019)

I agree that jumping to conclusions is unwarranted. However, when you have 2 new aircraft experiencing similar behaviors then the FAA should not take a wait and see approach.  Out of the abundance of caution the MAX 8 planes should be grounded until there is some sort of understanding of the issues.   Safety of the passengers life MUST be top priority over profits.  Lip service from Boeing is far from protecting the safety of passengers.


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## bluehende (Mar 12, 2019)

I am a little worried only about 1 thing.  I want to believe our government in general and the FAA in particular are looking out for our best interest.  I have a nagging thought that if it had been an Airbus plane in the same position would they be grounded in the US.  I hope that is not the case.


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## taterhed (Mar 12, 2019)

1.  I can't seem to remember anybody 'grounding' Airbus despite the many crashes and failures....maybe on the 380?
2.  God rest 'em, but flying on 3rd world airlines (and other low-end operations) is never a 'safe' bet. IMO
3.  I have no idea what caused this.  But, if it's the MCAS again.....then either the company AND the engineers AND the NTSB AND the entire airline industry completely missed the mark after the Lion crash.  I find that to be astronomically unlikely.
4.  If this is an identical repeat of the previous incident (pilots did NOT apply the correct procedure to recover the aircraft with MCAS/trim failure), then it will be a tragic example of why pilots are trained and paid to the extent they are.

I personally would not hesitate to fly on a 737 MAX, and would put my family on one as well. 
Condolences to those lives lost....and hope for speedy resolution of this tragedy with a clear answer;  Why?


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## bogey21 (Mar 12, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights...



Before they got too big for their britches the old Southwest would have been the first to shut down the planes...

George


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## PigsDad (Mar 12, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> Before they got too big for their britches the old Southwest would have been the first to shut down the planes...


And you know this for a fact because... ??

Kurt


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## Chrispee (Mar 12, 2019)

taterhed said:


> I personally would not hesitate to fly on a 737 MAX, and would put my family on one as well.



I agree, and I’m flying with my family on a Max 8 in less than three weeks. I do however believe there are enough similarities for concern between the two incidents. The fact that they both occured in near ideal weather conditions certainly raises the chance that a mechanical/software issue arose. Perhaps this coupled with pilot error in remedying the situation?


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## buzglyd (Mar 12, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> I have zero fear of flying any US Major Airline regardless of the make and model.  OTOH I would never fly Allegiant knowing what I know about their maintenance procedures and I’m getting a bit suspicious about Southwest.
> 
> The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes.  With the unprecedented expansion of airlines around the world, I suspect the quality of people entering the system has failed to match the sophistication of the designs.
> 
> Cheers



Exactly. The First Officer for Ethiopian had 200 hours of flight time. In the US, one needs 1500 hours of flight time to become a First Officer. 

That being said, I think Boeing needs to rethink the anti-stall software.


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## VacationForever (Mar 12, 2019)

The first thing I did after the Ethiopian Airlines crash was to check to make sure that I was not going to be on 737-Max8 on both my Southwest flights this week. I would not get on one until investigation is completed for this latest crash. 

Both accidents were on new planes and shortly after takeoff.  There is too much of a coincidence to not be concerned.


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## moonstone (Mar 12, 2019)

DH's cousin who lives in England told us that the UK has banned the 737Max. Here's the article;  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502


~Diane


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 12, 2019)

Should the Boeing MAX8 Be Grounded? The FAA changes lts Story.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/should-the-boeing-max-8-be-grounded-the-faa-changes-its-story.


Richard


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## Pompey Family (Mar 12, 2019)

taterhed said:


> 2.  God rest 'em, but flying on 3rd world airlines (and other low-end operations) is never a 'safe' bet. IMO



Ethiopian Airlines is known as the Jewel in the Crown of African airlines, their fleet is one of the most modern in the world particularly when you consider that BA are still flying aircraft from the 70's. It's interessting to note that the country that has suffered the largest number of plane crashes and the largest number of fatalities is the US and I suspect you have no qualms about boarding an American based aircraft.


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## VacationForever (Mar 12, 2019)

taterhed said:


> 3.  I have no idea what caused this.  But, if it's the MCAS again.....then either the company AND the engineers AND the NTSB AND the entire airline industry completely missed the mark after the Lion crash.  I find that to be astronomically unlikely.


You must have missed the news that in a rare move Boeing issued a safety bulletin to pilots in November directing them how to handle if the nose of the plane is automatically pushed down after the Lion crash.

Now Boeing is making software changes to 737-Max 8 to make it "more safe".


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 12, 2019)

Airlines Are Making Scared Passengers Pay the Price to Avoid Flying on Boeing 737 MAX 8 Planes.


http://fortune.com/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-flight-change/

Richard


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## DrQ (Mar 12, 2019)

I will wait until we get the information from the flight recorders.

It could be like the Airbus planes with their glass cockpit which had some human factors issues which training did not address. If the feel of the cockpit/controls between generations has differences, this can lead to pilot confusion during an emergency.


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## Sapper (Mar 13, 2019)

Let's wait until the investigation is complete to point fingers. If you don't feel safe stepping onto the plane, don't. Take a different one.


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## x3 skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?



 First thing I do as a pilot if the airplane is doing something odd/unexpected is disconnect anything “automatic” like the autopilot, autothrottles, etc. Every plane I’ve flown has one or more switches to do that.  I’ve never flown “big iron” but part of my preflight check list is to go thru the emergency “off” routine.

While there probably may be a hardware/software flaw, I still think this will involve some level of training and/or maintenance problems. I have read that one or two more similar instance of the MCAS unexpected activation may have been experienced in other 737 Max planes but pilot action to deactivate it prevented any mishaps. IMO, if this is true, it should have triggered an Airworthiness Directive to permanently deactivate the system until the root cause was determined and fixed.  If it is really necessary to safely fly the plane, by all means ground them. I’m almost certain it isn’t required but I’m not privy to the design details of the aircraft.

Of course if anyone is concerned about flying on a 737 Max, they shouldn’t.  I would if it was a US Airline but then I would never get in a Tesla (or any car for that matter) equipped with an autopilot since I don’t trust the “off” switch.  Aircraft and pilots undergo a much more rigorous certification process than cars/drivers do although failure of either can have just as deadly result.

Cheers


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## bogey21 (Mar 13, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> And you know this for a fact because... ??



I live in the past.  Herb Kelleher would have handled differently.  He always put passengers first...

George


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## bogey21 (Mar 13, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?



This kind of reminds me of back when the Lockheed Electras were crashing in the 50s.  I don't think they ever did figure out the cause.  My recollection is that they just slowed them down and the crashes stopped...

George


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## Talent312 (Mar 13, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> This kind of reminds me of back when the Lockheed Electras were crashing in the 50s.  I don't think they ever did figure out the cause...



Per Wikipedia:
Three aircraft were lost in fatal accidents between February 1959 and March 1960. After the third crash, the FAA limited the Electra's speed until the cause could be determined.

After an extensive investigation, two of the crashes were found to be caused by an engine mount problem. The mounts were not strong enough to damp a phenomenon called "whirl mode flutter"... When the oscillation was transmitted to the wings and the flutter frequency decreased to a point where it was resonant with the outer wing panels, violent up-and-down oscillation increased until the wings would tear off...

The company implemented an expensive modification program in which...

.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 13, 2019)

One of the rare news articles I’ve read that didn’t use drama to draw readers in discussed how 3rd world countries have become major markets and, because of this there is a growing shortage of pilots. Secondary to the shortage of pilots manufacturors of aircraft have begun “automizing” systems so pilots with LESS training can fly them. 

IMHO this is a big problem that is shared by both the companies selling the plane (more dangerous but more sales) and the airlines that fly them (less experience but bigger profits). In the end if, and I should enunciated the if, this is the problem, everyone’s profits are likely to take a hit.


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## x3 skier (Mar 13, 2019)

For those interested, here’s an excerpt from the report I read noting immediate action by the pilot to disengage the autopilot when the 737 Max pitched over on climb out.


“Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.“

The reporting system does not publish the names or identify the specific aircraft to encourage reporting of every abnormal situation no matter the cause, pilot error, controller error, failure or design flaw.  This system is designed to illuminate problems for further investigation and for pilot education.

IF and I repeat, IF, neither of the pilots in the crashes responded by disconnecting the autopilot, it COULD be the cause of the two crashes.  Why the MCAS doesn’t work correctly, if true, is another question entirely. 

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 13, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> For those interested, here’s an excerpt from the report I read noting immediate action by the pilot to disengage the autopilot when the 737 Max pitched over on climb out.
> 
> 
> “Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.“
> ...


Hi X3Skier,

Thanks for the update. Your expertise is always welcome.


Best Regards,

Richard


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## x3 skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Doing some more research, I found an Emergengy Airworthiness Directive issued on 7 November 2018 dealing with this situation. It calls for disengagement of the autopilot when the aircraft is pitched down due to erratic or incorrect sensor information being fed into the autopilot.

If this information and required action had been implemented correctly by the airlines and regulators of the involved crash aircrafts, and the pilots properly trained to react, I believe they could have controlled the plane and avoided the crashes.  What design change and/or maintenance procedures are required to eliminate the problem is unclear to me.

This information and the report I posted earlier further reinforces my lack of concern about flying on US Airline 737 Max aircraft and also reinforces my choice not to fly on third world airlines. 

Cheers


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## bogey21 (Mar 13, 2019)

Thanks for the info regarding the 1959 Electra issue.  I never knew that they figured it out.  All I knew is I was flying the Electra extensively between Houston and Atlanta then from Atlanta to Philadelphia.  At the time I was too young to be scared...

George


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## moonstone (Mar 13, 2019)

Add Canada to the list of countries banning the MAX 8 & 9.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234

  (If the name of our Transport Minister sounds familiar, he was an astronaut with NASA.  Marc Garneau was the first Canadian in space, taking part in three flights aboard NASA Space Shuttles in 1984, 1996 and 2000.)


~Diane


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 13, 2019)

Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...d-black-box-from-crashed-boeing-737-max-8-to/


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 13, 2019)

Pilots complained about autopilot issues with
Boeing jets involved in two deadly crashes.


https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263751/boeing-737-max-8-pilot-complaint-autopilot-mcas.


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 13, 2019)

Boeing's fixes to 737 MAX software delayed by government shutdown, report claims.

https://arstechnica.com/information...delayed-by-government-shutdown-report-claims/


Richard


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## Chrispee (Mar 13, 2019)

Air Canada call centre is not accepting calls right now.  I have a flight on a MAX 8 booked at the end of the month, so hopefully this gets resolved fast!


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## pedro47 (Mar 13, 2019)

President Trump just ordered the grounding of all Boeing’s 737 Max 8’s and 9’s aircrafts in the United States .

The Boeing’s 737 Max 8’s and 9’s aircrafts have now been officially grounded all over the world.

The United States was the last country to ground the Boeing’s 737 Max aircrafts.


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## Talent312 (Mar 13, 2019)

Now might be a good time to buy Boeing stock.
.


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## Chrispee (Mar 13, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> Now might be a good time to buy Boeing stock.
> .



Stock price opened and closed pretty even today.  Surprising to me!


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## davidvel (Mar 13, 2019)

Here are all the MAX 8s and 9s (both are at issue) *currently* flying: 
MAX 8 
MAX 9


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## davidvel (Mar 13, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> Stock price opened and closed pretty even today.  Pretty surprising to me!


It actually was diving and bounced back AFTER the grounding. (no pun intended)


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## WVBaker (Mar 13, 2019)

Looks like all 737 8&9 both grounded by FAA.


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## Chrispee (Mar 13, 2019)

Are there any TUG mambers with a timeshare checkin this weekend who will be affected by the grounding?  I have a flight to LIH on Friday on a 737-800, but my return flight is scheduled on a Max 8...


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## AnnaS (Mar 13, 2019)

I am happy to hear the US is also grounding the Max 8s and 9s.  

Let them investigate.


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## Ken555 (Mar 13, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> Air Canada call centre is not accepting calls right now.  I have a flight on a MAX 8 booked at the end of the month, so hopefully this gets resolved fast!



Westjet is only accommodating those flying within the next few days, for comparison. I’m not sure if they expect a speedy resolution or are doing this just to limit the incoming calls. 

I booked a flight for Sept yesterday with Westjet on their new 787 and it turns out also has a 737 Max 8 as part of the itinerary. I’ll be watching.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chrispee (Mar 13, 2019)

My flight to LIH is on Westjet so hopefully their schedule scrambling doesn't affect me even though I'm on a 737-800.  My thought is they'll have a fix in place by the end of next week, but perhaps I'm being overly optimistic!  At least it won't be a huge bummer if I'm stuck on Kauai for a few extra days.


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## bluehende (Mar 13, 2019)

I saw a pilot today on CNBC that said the plane was at 800 ft.  He was saying that at this height the pilot has time to react but not much.  Any confusion could take up any margin for safety and was a tragedy waiting to happen.  He was a former Boeing employee.  Flew the 737 professionally and now writes for an aviation magazine.  He seemed credible and while saying if it was the autopilot the pilot does have time to react it is not hard to believe that even a competent pilot could get confused enough to delay disengaging the autopilot.

The groundings today came from information that this accident was essentially the same as the last one being confirmed by satellite data.  When two planes go down in the exact same way it seems prudent to me to check things out.


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## davidvel (Mar 13, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> My flight to LIH is on Westjet so hopefully their schedule scrambling doesn't affect me even though I'm on a 737-800.  My thought is they'll have a fix in place by the end of next week, but perhaps I'm being overly optimistic!  At least it won't be a huge bummer if I'm stuck on Kauai for a few extra days.


A 737-800 is not a Max 8.


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## Ken555 (Mar 13, 2019)

davidvel said:


> A 737-800 is not a Max 8.



Read her post again. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chrispee (Mar 13, 2019)

davidvel said:


> A 737-800 is not a Max 8.



My flight to LIH is in a WestJet 737-800 so I’m only worried about equipment getting shuffled around for other cancelled flights. My return flight at the end of the month is on an Air Canada 737 Max 8.


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## davidvel (Mar 14, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> Read her post again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





Chrispee said:


> My flight to LIH is in a WestJet 737-800 so I’m only worried about equipment getting shuffled around for other cancelled flights. My return flight at the end of the month is on an Air Canada 737 Max 8.


Gotcha. Missed the nuance.  I'm sure all airlines are scrambling to rearrange aircraft and schedules based upon demand etc. Good luck to you and all.


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## mdurette (Mar 14, 2019)

I haven’t been in touch with news for a few days, but when I went to check an upcoming southwest flight I noticed a red banner that said I could change flight.   Didn’t know why, so I started to research. Appears SW is allowing system wide no fee changes through the end of the month.   Even on non max 8 flights.    

If you have a SW flight in the upcoming weeks that you want to change, maybe a good time to look into it.   Nice deal for people that may have taken the option for cheaper layover flights and may now be able to pick up a non stop for no extra cost.


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## VacationForever (Mar 14, 2019)

SW has never had change fees.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 14, 2019)

The Boeing 737 Max and the Problems
Autopilot Can't Solve.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/opinion/business-economics/boeing-737-max.html.

Richard


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## WVBaker (Mar 14, 2019)

{removed quoted deleted political post}

I don't know if I would place the decision to ground these planes by Daniel Elwell a political action of any sort. This is a serious problem that needs to be investigated so the cause can be determined and grounding all of the Boeing 737's is the safest way to do it.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 14, 2019)

I received this email today from Southwest:

A message from our CEO

Since Sunday, we have been continually working with the FAA, Boeing, and others within the U.S. government, regarding the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft type that was involved in the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 accident on March 10. This afternoon, the FAA issued its order to ground the MAX, with our knowledge and support. We have removed the 34 MAX aircraft from service; they will remain out of service until the FAA rescinds this order. With more than 750 aircraft in our fleet, more than 95 percent of our aircraft are unaffected by this order.

Safety is our top priority. It always has been. It always must be. Our commitment to the Safety of our Employees and our Customers is unwavering and uncompromising. U.S. airlines operate within the most advanced, regulated aviation system in the world and nothing is more sacred to all of our Southwest Family Members than the trust our Customers place in our airline every day, on every flight. You have our commitment to minimize the disruptions to our Customers' travel plans, while adhering to the FAA's requirements and ensuring the Safety of our fleet.

Southwest® has a long history with the 737 and a stellar safety record. Our experience with the MAX, along with the other U.S. operators, has been phenomenal. We've operated over 40,000 flights covering almost 90,000 hours. There is a ton of data collected, which we continuously monitor. In all of our analysis since our first flight in 2017, or that by our U.S. counterparts or the FAA; nothing has presented any flight safety concerns. It is also important to add that all Pilots at Southwest are deeply experienced and highly trained, as are our Mechanics who are highly experienced and trained to safely maintain every airplane in our fleet.

I realize this disruption may inconvenience our Customers during this busy spring travel season, and we will do everything in our power to mitigate the impact to our operation. For that, I offer my sincere apologies. To support our Customers, we are offering flexible rebooking policies for any Customer booked on a cancelled flight.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. We will provide frequent updates to you as this story develops.






Richard


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## Talent312 (Mar 14, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> "Safety is our top priority. It always has been. It always must be. Our commitment to the Safety of our Employees and our Customers is unwavering and uncompromising."



I would trust those words more if they settled their labor issues with the mechanics.


.


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## mdurette (Mar 15, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> SW has never had change fees.



Correct.   But for this you can change your flight for a different higher cost flight and not pay the difference in fare cost.   Like when they allow you to change to whatever for upcoming weather.


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## bogey21 (Mar 15, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> I would trust those words more if they settled their labor issues with the mechanics.



Agree...

George


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## geist1223 (Mar 15, 2019)

Listening to a Senior Captain today on the News - he said it is mainly a training issue between Boeing and the airlines (including pilots). Apparently the documentation from Boeing was not the best and clearly written about the new Anti-stall program. Then the airlines need to emphasis this new program in their training. Due to these problems some pilots are not even aware of the new anti-stall program. The Captain said he is an easy issue/problem to recognise and correct with the proper/clearly written documentation and training.


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## VacationForever (Mar 15, 2019)

mdurette said:


> Correct.   But for this you can change your flight for a different higher cost flight and not pay the difference in fare cost.   Like when they allow you to change to whatever for upcoming weather.


Gotcha.


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## Fredward (Mar 15, 2019)

Flyertalk sent an email this morning that had an interesting discussion https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/...737-max-8.html?utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=


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## CanuckTravlr (Mar 15, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...d-black-box-from-crashed-boeing-737-max-8-to/  Richard



I am not really surprised in this instance...and not just because France has a very competent investigative agency.  Since the aircraft was manufactured in the USA, normally the FAA would expect to be involved, but ultimately it is up to the Ethiopian government to decide who they wish to head up the investigation.

I think the denials by Boeing and the slowness of the FAA to join most of the rest of the world in at least temporarily grounding Max 8s, lead to some suspicion that Boeing's relationship with and ability to influence the FAA is perhaps a bit too close.  There have been similar concerns expressed in the past, and similar comments made concerning some of the European agencies and Airbus.

A seemingly more independent inquiry by the French agency may help to allay some of those concerns.  I assume at some point the FAA will also have access to the information to be able to do their own investigation and come to their own conclusions.


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## davidvel (Mar 15, 2019)

mdurette said:


> Correct.   But for this you can change your flight for a different higher cost flight and not pay the difference in fare cost.   Like when they allow you to change to whatever for upcoming weather.


More details on this: Through 3/31 you can change flights or even dates, so long as between original cities. Dates must be with 14 days of original travel. Anyone booked on Southwest should see if this benefits them. You could get a much more desirable flight that costs much more than your booking at no additional fee. 

Note: Not sure what the 3/31 refers to, whether its the last day you can request a change, or if your original flight had to be before this, but I presume it's the former.


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## davidvel (Mar 15, 2019)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I am not really surprised in this instance...and not just because France has a very competent investigative agency.  Since the aircraft was manufactured in the USA, normally the FAA would expect to be involved, but ultimately it is up to the Ethiopian government to decide who they wish to head up the investigation.
> 
> I think the denials by Boeing and the slowness of the FAA to join most of the rest of the world in at least temporarily grounding Max 8s, lead to some suspicion that Boeing's relationship with and ability to influence the FAA is perhaps a bit too close.  There have been similar concerns expressed in the past, and similar comments made concerning some of the European agencies and Airbus.
> 
> A seemingly more independent inquiry by the French agency may help to allay some of those concerns.  I assume at some point the FAA will also have access to the information to be able to do their own investigation and come to their own conclusions.


And similarly, France just might have such similar relationships  with (or even own a large chunk of) Airbus that it could have incentive to make Boeing look bad to the direct benefit of Airbus. But my understanding s they are just doing the technical job of parsing out the box data, not reaching investigative conclusions.


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## CanuckTravlr (Mar 15, 2019)

davidvel said:


> And similarly, France just might have such similar relationships  with (or even own a large chunk of) Airbus that it could have incentive to make Boeing look bad to the direct benefit of Airbus. But my understanding s they are just doing the technical job of parsing out the box data, not reaching investigative conclusions.



I don't necessarily disagree.  However, having another national agency also look at the original data should give additional credence to any subsequent investigation by whoever does it, particularly if they agree.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 15, 2019)

How a 50-year-old design came back to haunt Boeing with its troubled 737 Max jet.

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-fi-boeing-max-design-20190315-story.html.


Richard


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## WVBaker (Mar 15, 2019)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Unfortunately, for those of us outside the USA looking in these days, the appearance of regularly attempted direct political interference by the current US administration with many supposedly independent US regulatory agencies does not help allay the concerns.



I don't know if this is the avenue I would have chosen to express my opinion but, to each his or her own.


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## CanuckTravlr (Mar 15, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> I don't know if this is the avenue I would have chosen to express my opinion but, to each his or her own.



On sober second reading, I agree and have removed the second sentence in my original post.  However valid an observation it may or may not be, it probably moves the comment too much into the political realm.


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## x3 skier (Mar 16, 2019)

Further research apparently reveals that rather than disengaging the autopilot was not the “answer” to stopping the pitch down as I had thought, but another switch to disengage the stabilizer auto trimming. This article is well written to explain the the Indonesian 737 Max accident. I’ve yet to find any similar well written item on the Ethiopian accident but what I have read about that accident, it *may* be another example of sensor malfunction and pilot error.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/sout...oomed-lion-air-flight-may-have-been-befuddled

The article also says that the Indonesian Airline failed to notify the “system” that a failed sensor caused two similar incidents, both of which were correctly handled by the pilots and avoided any crash.

Additionally, the co-pilot in the Ethiopian Air crash had only 200 hours of flying time which according to Capt. Sully Sullenberger should have not ever been in the cockpit, I view I certainly agree with and thank him for voicing such a strong opinion.

https://m.facebook.com/sully/posts/10157074728667236

Since one of my posts was deleted in its entirety as “political”, I will avoid reposting it but restate a hopefully “non political” part from that post that a technical and training solution appears to me to be very straightforward and relatively easy to implement. I would expect there is little technical reason to expect a long delay in the 737 MAX resuming flight.

(Edited to give a direct link to Capt Sully Sullenberger’s Facebook post)

Cheers


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## taterhed (Mar 17, 2019)

I stand by my first post. (not sure if it's on this thread or not).

The Boeing 737 Max series aircraft may have flaws, failures or require software modifications for it's continued, safe employment worldwide.  BUT
With all due respect to the families and friends of those lost in the recent accidents....I firmly believe that primary cause of the accidents was insufficient training and pilot error.
Choose carefully when you fly.

I believe you'll find that the airlines listed below operate the 737 Max aircraft more frequently on a single route than the fleet totals (Max) for Lion Air and Ethiopian.  
If your airline is flying with pilots (any) that have only 200 hours.....I suggest you rebook.



Below, the statements of the major US 737-Max Airline Pilots as summarized on a recent INC. article:

Jon Weaks, president of *Southwest Airlines* Pilots Association issued a strident statement, which read in part: 

_*I have been in numerous conversations today with Southwest Vice President of Flight Operations Captain Alan Kasher, who informed me that the MAX aircraft has 17,000 recordable parameters and Southwest has compiled and analyzed a tremendous amount of data from more than 41,000 flights operated by the 34 MAX aircraft on property, and the data supports Southwest's continued confidence in the airworthiness and safety of the MAX.* _*He added: I will continue to put my family, friends, and loved ones on any Southwest flight and the main reason is you, the Pilots of SWAPA. We have lobbied hard for our training to continue to evolve and improve, and due to having the finest union Training and Standards Committee in the industry, that is occurring.*

Some will fear that all training should have been done before the plane ever took flight.

However, his counterparts at *American Airlines* agree. Their union, the Allied Pilots Association, said it was entirely confident in the MAX and issued this statement: 

_*The pilots for the world's largest airline have the necessary training and experience to troubleshoot problems and take decisive actions on the flight deck to protect our passengers and crew.*_

If anything, the *United Airlines* pilots union, the ALPA, was most bullish in its words. United flies the slightly larger 737 MAX 9.

The master chairman of the United chapter of the union, Todd Insler, told Forbes: 

*We have a pretty robust flight safety data reporting system here at United. We have flown 23,000 hours in the MAX 9 and not one of those thousands of data points shows [a problem] related to aircraft performance or mechanical deficiency.  He added: We're trying not to be emotional about this. The facts, the data points at United, show why we are confident in our ability to fly this airplane.*

Many will be heartened that, as the MAX continues to fly around America, those piloting the plane are confident that it's safe.
Some passengers, however, will react emotionally. It's called being human.
*************************************************************************************************

Gary Kelly's internal memo to SWA employees:  
According to news reports, the memo to employees read in part: Our experience with the MAX, along with the other U.S. operators, has been phenomenal. *We've operated over 40,000 flights covering almost 90,000 hours.* There is a ton of data collected, which we continuously monitor. In all our analysis since our first flight in 2017, _nothing has presented any flight safety concerns. It has been a superb addition to our fleet.  
_
American Airlines statement on it's 737 Max operations:

_American regularly monitors aircraft performance and safety parameters across our entire fleet, including extensive flight data collection. This data, along with our analysis, gives us confidence in the safe operation of all of our aircraft, and contributes to American’s exemplary safety record. *American has flown more than 2.5 million passengers — during 46,400 operating hours encompassing nearly 18,000 flights — safely on our MAX 8 fleet since the first one was delivered Sept. 2017 and began commercial service later that November.   *_


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## Talent312 (Mar 17, 2019)

With all due respect to the many pilots who are confident in their ability to fly this plane...

All it takes is ~15 minutes of flight with one pilot w/o enuff training in this type of emergency to ditch the plan in the dirt. That is an unnecessary part of the equation in determining the flight safety of this aircraft, and until it is not, the assurance of safety rings hollow.
.


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## Ken555 (Mar 17, 2019)

taterhed said:


> If your airline is flying with pilots (any) that have only 200 hours.....I suggest you rebook.



Is there a site which makes available this information to all of us? I book flights on many different airlines, especially when in other regions, and I often have no knowledge of their pilot experience or training. 

For instance, I recently purchased a flight on FlyDubai, and I know next to nothing about them (other than they are a government owned airline). Yet, even the majors have issues...the affiliated American Eagle and other domestic airlines have been known to have low wage, sleep deprived pilots operating in the US. I suspect training should be one of several key criteria to consider when choosing an airline. Is there a site that lists this info? If not, well, hmm...we should start one.

Update: I forgot about this site... https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Mar 17, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> With all due respect to the many pilots who are confident in their ability to fly this plane...
> 
> All it takes is ~15 minutes of flight with one pilot w/o enuff training in this type of emergency to ditch the plan in the dirt. That is an unnecessary part of the equation in determining the flight safety of this aircraft, and until it is not, the assurance of safety rings hollow.
> .



Frankly, I’m more worried about the guy driving the car in the next lane on the freeway.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## x3 skier (Mar 17, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> With all due respect to the many pilots who are confident in their ability to fly this plane...
> 
> All it takes is ~15 minutes of flight with one pilot w/o enuff training in this type of emergency to ditch the plan in the dirt. *That is an unnecessary part of the equation in determining the flight safety of this aircraft, and until it is not, the assurance of safety rings hollow. *





I’m not sure what you are saying here. If a pilot has not had the proper training in the aircraft, how is that the fault of the aircraft?  I am a pilot but have never been trained to fly a commercial airliner so if I took command of the aircraft and crashed it, the design is faulty?  If you’re saying that the training  required was insufficient, it seems to have been sufficient to allow several pilots, including two flight crews from Indonesian Air, to recover the aircraft when what appears to be a similar situation that resulted in the crash. 

Anything can happen in a flight and if the US professionals flying the aircraft have the confidence to put themselves aboard a flight, I have the same confidence in the design and their ability to successfully fly the plane and handle  emergencies. As I have stated before, I do not have the same confidence in some other airlines and their aircrew. 

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 17, 2019)

Sensor cited as potential factor in Boeing crashes
draws scrutiny 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...512a6fe3439_story.html?utm_term=.74a488c7d9e5.


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 18, 2019)

A string of missteps may have made the Boeing 737 Max crash-prone.

https://qz.com/1575509/what-went-wrong-with-the-boeing-737-max-8.

Richard


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## taterhed (Mar 19, 2019)

Funny.  The author of the above article notes that the ET aircraft AOA sensors disagreed on the taxi out to take-off.

Unless the pilots were performing a "Southwest Airlines taxi"  (fast, sarcasm) there is and was no AOA on the ground.  The sensors 'windmill' freely on the ground.

A valuable lesson on this:  'Don't believe everything you see on the internet (or read, hear, watch etc...)


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## davidvel (Mar 19, 2019)

taterhed said:


> Funny.  The author of the above article notes that the ET aircraft AOA sensors disagreed on the taxi out to take-off.
> 
> Unless the pilots were performing a "Southwest Airlines taxi"  (fast, sarcasm) there is and was no AOA on the ground.  The sensors 'windmill' freely on the ground.
> 
> A valuable lesson on this:  'Don't believe everything you see on the internet (or read, hear, watch etc...)


And the author references a 737-800, which is not a Max aircraft.


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## moonstone (Mar 19, 2019)

Air Canada just announced they're suspending use of the Max 8's until at least July 1st.! That's a fair size portion of their fleet.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/air-canada-max-8s-grounded-july-1-1.5062354


~Diane


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 19, 2019)

davidvel said:


> And the author references a 737-800, which is not a Max aircraft.


Hi Davidel,

Here is the quote you referenced:
"The software is designed to work automatically 
and only in extreme situations. Boeing decided 
pilots didn't need any new training to 
understand MCAS. In fact, they didn't even 
mention the system in flight manuals. Dennis 
Taker, spokesman for the American Airlines pilots 
union, told Quartz that the training prior to the 
Lion Air crash for pilots qualified to fly the 737- 
800 amounted to "an ipad lesson for an hour." 

My interpretation of what he is saying is that pilots who were qualified to fly the 737-800 aircraft received an iPad lesson for an hour on how to fly the 737 Max 8.

Richard


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## CanuckTravlr (Mar 19, 2019)

moonstone said:


> Air Canada just announced they're suspending use of the Max 8's until at least July 1st.! That's a fair size portion of their fleet.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/air-canada-max-8s-grounded-july-1-1.5062354



They may well have had no choice if people were refusing to book or board them.  You can see the aircraft and seating you will be on when booking (although it can also always change).  But it is definitely a significant part of their larger aircraft fleet (those aircraft with over 100 seats).  According to their website there are 24 Max 8 aircraft out of 172 larger aircraft...so almost 15% of that part of the fleet.  It will definitely require some route realignments for awhile.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 19, 2019)

A pilot who hitched a ride on a Lion Air 737 saved that plane. The next day, the same Boeing iet crashed.

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lion-air-boeing-737-pilot-20190319-story.html.


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 19, 2019)

What we learned about the FAA and Boeing's cozy relationship from a damning new report.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...737-max-8-investigation-ethiopian-airlines-fa.

Richard


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## CanuckTravlr (Mar 19, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> What we learned about the FAA and Boeing's cozy relationship from a damning new report.
> 
> 
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...737-max-8-investigation-ethiopian-airlines-fa.
> ...



BINGO!!!


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 20, 2019)

Exclusive: Lion Air pilots scoured handbook in minutes before crash - sources.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-crash-exclusive-idUSKCN1R10FB.

Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 21, 2019)

Boeing 737MAX 8 Scandal Grows Doomed LionAir Flight Should Never Have Flown.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/boein...on-air-flight-should-never-have-flown?via=rss.


Richard


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## PigsDad (Mar 21, 2019)

*Crashed jets reportedly lacked key safety features because Boeing charged extra for them
*



David Ryder | Bloomberg | Getty Images
The nose of a Boeing Co. 737 MAX 9 jetliner sits during production at the company's manufacturing facility in Renton, Washington.


Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia lacked two safety features in their cockpits because the company charged extra to install them.
The features could have helped the pilots detect erroneous readings, which some experts believe might be connected to the planes' failures, the New York Times reports.
Boeing will now make the disagree light free of charge on all new 737 Max planes, the paper said
Kurt


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## WVBaker (Mar 21, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> What we learned about the FAA and Boeing's cozy relationship from a damning new report.
> 
> 
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...737-max-8-investigation-ethiopian-airlines-fa.
> ...



Well... if we must. From the link provided.  

"As the New York Times reported recently, the agency created a program in *2005* that allowed manufacturers like Boeing to choose their own employees for critical work in certifying new planes were safe to fly."


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## davidvel (Mar 21, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Hi Davidel,
> 
> Here is the quote you referenced:
> "The software is designed to work automatically
> ...


Yes, I see now, I misread it. I still can't fathom how these pilots didn't know the plane was trimming the stabilizer down.


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## x3 skier (Mar 21, 2019)

Here’s a reasonable article about the Designated Engineering Representative program.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/21/congress-faa-boeing-oversight-1287902

I’ve met a few of these folks at various aerospace companies and I found that they take their responsibility very seriously. They can be extremely tough on the companies. This approach has been in effect one way or another in my 50 some odd years in the aircraft development business.

The bottom line at the end of the article says a lot.

“*The author of the 2011 report, former assistant inspector general for aviation audits Jeff Guzzetti, said the FAA was responsive to his office’s recommendations. And though the program “probably still has issues,” he said, “in general, the system works.”

“No one is more motivated to have a safe aircraft than the manufacturer, because if one crashes, it could be the end of that manufacturer, it could cost billions of dollars — just like it’s costing Boeing,” Guzzetti said.”
*
Cheers


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## Ken555 (Mar 21, 2019)

This article details the optional, yet seemingly requisite, components pilots need. I’m curious how United compensates for not having these options while both American and Southwest do. For the moment, this is simply yet another reason not to fly United.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html



> American Airlines, which ordered 100 of the planes and has 24 in its fleet, bought both the angle of attack indicator and the disagree light, the company said.
> 
> Southwest Airlines, which ordered 280 of the planes and counts 36 in its fleet so far, had already purchased the disagree alert option, and it also installed an angle of attack indicator in a display mounted above the pilots’ heads. After the Lion Air crash, Southwest said it would modify its 737 Max fleet to place the angle of attack indicator on the pilots’ main computer screens.
> 
> United Airlines, which ordered 137 of the planes and has received 14, did not select the indicators or the disagree light. A United spokesman said the airline does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pedro47 (Mar 22, 2019)

Will Boeing install the two (2) safety features on the current airplanes in services now for free or will they only install those two (2) safety features on airplanes that have not been delivered to the airline industry.?

This is my Question and Concern.

Please read the last sentence in PigsDad post.
Four (4) posts above this post.


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## Ken555 (Mar 22, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> Will Boeing install the two (2) safety features on the current airplanes in services now for free or will they only install those two (2) safety features on airplanes that have not been delivered to the airline industry.?
> 
> This is my Question and Concern.
> 
> ...



The article I posted before your post directly addresses this question.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chrispee (Mar 24, 2019)

So I have finally given up on Air Canada finding a solution to my flight fro LIH-YVR this Saturday.  Here's the timeline of how things played out.

*March 13*
Boeing Max 8 gets grounded in NA

*March 17*
After waiting a few days to let things settle, I contacted Air Canada asking what the potential solution was and received this message
"We apologize for the late reply. We can understand your concern. Be assured that our Flight Operations team is working diligently to ensure a replacement aircraft is settled for your flights. If we proceed with a schedule change, you will be contacted once a reprotection has been set in place. Given the magnitude of our 737-MAX-operations, our customers can expect delays in rebooking. We are working hard to re-book all the affected passengers on a rolling 72 hour basis. Since you are traveling later than that, we haven't gotten to you yet."

*March 22*
After observing that the two AC flights from Kauai this past week were cancelled and it did not appear that a replacement plane was sent, I contacted AC again as they were obviously rerouting/rescheduling passengers.  Here's the response I got:
"Please note that for the same date, we have only two seats left in Premium Economy from HNL-YVR. We could book a flight from LIH-HNL with Hawaiian Air. However, we don't have Business Class seats nor Economy Class seats. The day before or after is also fully booked at this time."

At this point I called in because the writing was on the wall.  This isn't United or Delta, so I knew AC only flies LIH-YVR and any rerouting would likely go through HNL with all of the other displaced AC passengers in Hawaii.  The call to customer service was like banging my head against the wall.  I asked if I could be placed in one of the remaining premium economy seats and the response was "possibly, but you would have to pay the difference between economy and premium."  Ok, but how would you even work out that price since the replacement flight is not published?  "I'm not sure, I'd have to check".  It was a round about conversation with no facts or offers for action.  In the end, the agent said if she were me she would just wait and see if AC would send a replacement plane.

*March 23*
I gave up and cancelled my AC flight (which I'm guessing they are probably happy about).  Booked on Alaska using points.

I realize these are tough times for Air Canada and the situation is beyond their control, but the customer service was extremely poor.  No "I'm sorry I can understand this must be frustrating to deal with while you're on vacation, but let me see what we can do".

In stark contrast, my wife and son were booked on the same flight using Aeroplan miles.  Aeroplan bent over backwards and spent 20 minutes on the phone looking for solutions.  In the end they got rebooked on a combination of Hawaiian Airlines and AC rerouting though SFO.  Aeroplan is covering the hotel for the stopover and their customer service was fantastic!

*TLDR: Air Canada is struggling with poor customer service and relay of information with the MAX 8 grounding.  Ended up booking another carrier due to the lack of information and alternatives offered.  Conversely, Aeroplan customer service was excellent during my wife’s rebooking process. *


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## AJCts411 (Mar 25, 2019)

Chrispee said:


> So I have finally given up on Air Canada finding a solution to my flight fro LIH-YVR this Saturday.  Here's the timeline of how things played out.
> 
> 
> You might not know this...but sounds like you actually got the deluxe customer care service from AC.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 25, 2019)

In Test of Boeing Jet, Pilots Had 40 Seconds to Fix Error.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/business/boeing-simulation-error.html.

Richard


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## x3 skier (Mar 26, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> In Test of Boeing Jet, Pilots Had 40 Seconds to Fix Error.
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/business/boeing-simulation-error.html.
> ...



Single point failures with such a powerful and potentially catastrophic result should be avoided if at all realistically possible in the design of an aircraft.  I am guessing that Boeing chose, and the FAA agreed, that since the aircraft has two AOA probes and thus it would be impossible to easily choose which was correct if they disagreed, to design the MCAS to rely on one probe. This can be done with little risk if it can be shown the single point failure is readily detected and is extremely reliable. In fact, a failed AOA probe was detected repeatedly in the crash aircraft prior to the fatal crash and apparently never correctly fixed.

I would have not approved that approach in the design if I was in charge. There are other means to detect the erroneous probe if two are being used in the system which I assume is being done in the revised design being tested based on what I’ve read.

Even so, correct action by US pilots have avoided any crashes when the original system malfunctioned.  I still would have no problem flying in a MAX in the hands of a First World Airline Pilot.  OTOH, I will still  never fly in ANY plane operated by a Third World Airline.

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Mar 26, 2019)

727 and 737 MAX introduction into Airline Service

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...7-jet-also-had-a-terrible-start-idUSKCN1R62HB

I’m old enough to remember this. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Mar 26, 2019)

*Boeing 737 MAX software fix: easy to upload, harder to approve*


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...o-upload-harder-to-approve-idUSKCN1R72LB?il=0

The *technical* issues seem amenable to straightforward engineering solutions. . 

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2019)

Ethiopian Airlines pilots followed Boeing's emergency procedures before crash: report.


https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/03/africa/ethiopian-airlines-emergency-procedures-intl/


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 5, 2019)

How excess speed, hasty commands and flawed software doomed an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX.


https://in.reuters.com/article/ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-idINKCN1RH0F8.


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (May 15, 2019)

Pilots confronted Boeing with 737 Max fears after first fatal crash, audio reveals.


https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-max-pilots-lion-air-ethiopian-airlines-audio.


Richard


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## pedro47 (May 15, 2019)

Thanks Richard for sharing this new information.  Something is wrong.


----------

