# My Experience with Hilton Grand Vacation Resale Department



## Juxtapose

Continuing from my thread last week I decided to make a new one chronicling my experience with HGV as I attempt to persuade them into buying back my timeshare for what they said they would buy it back for in my initial sale.  We all know where this goes, but I'm curious to see how their departments, and teams handle things...

I own a 2200 point gold week studio at Elara, which I paid $14,900 for a year ago. My maintenance fees (including club dues and all that rest) are in the $875 range, and it came to my attention that I'm actually spending more in those fees than I'm getting out of my 2200 points. Not a surprise to anyone who's spent some time here on this site.  Anyway, it was a surprise to me compared to what I was told I was buying. The part of the sales pitch that stood out to me most is that I directly asked "what if this isn't for me and I want to sell in a year?" and I got a bit of a round about answer saying this was an amazing property and it could only go up. So I asked again and he told me that Hilton would probably buy it back for more than what I paid, but I could at least get back what I'm paying. Right...

So in the last week I called every Hilton number I could. I spent a few hours on hold, spoke with about a half dozen people. I insisted on speaking to a supervisor but was only ever able to get one on the line (after three requests, where the customer service employee kept telling me what the supervisor was going to e-mail forward on my behalf) "no I'd like to speak with him directly, please." Finally I got Derek on the line. He informed me that resale was another department, and his team wasn't set-up to address my concerns. I asked for a direct contact to them. He said, the resale department cannot be reached by phone, only e-mail and that it takes three weeks to hear back from them. I asked if he had a supervisor he could send me to. He said he was top of the line where I was calling. I asked if Hilton Grand Vacations has an executive office that I could reach, and he informed me that there was a corporate relations office as well as an executive branch but that he's not authorized to put me in touch with them. 

I explained to Derek my concerns about how Hilton Grand Vacation is conducting business, and gave a brief history of my experience. I told him, it's one thing to sell properties to people who don't do their homework, but to flat out lie about the numbers and promise you'll buy them back in order to make the sale seems unethical at a minimum and likely illegal. I told him my plans to create a website to inform the public of my experience and let him know about my history in programming and web development, and knowledge of google ranking systems. Derek seemed like a straight up guy, his voice indicated that he knows and even agreed with what I was saying, but Hilton is his employer, anyway he asked what my goal was in this.  I told him that ultimately my goal is to get my $14,900 back... but that the longer and more difficult the process is to accomplish that, the more likely I am to go the vigilante justice route and spend great amounts of energy, time and money to see to it that the system is exposed through my experience. He told me he would send an urgent request to the resale department as well as corporate relations to reach out to me.

This morning I received the following e-mail:

======
Hello Mr. _______,


If you are interested in selling your timeshare interval we can list the timeshare for sale on the resale market.  We work with a network of resale brokers that will advertise to find you a buyer.  The suggested listing price range for your timeshare property is $3,000.00 to $4,000.00.  This is only a suggestion based on current resale market analysis.  You may list your property at any price you wish. The broker commission due on the sale of your Hilton interval will be 25% of the sales price or a minimum of $500.  Please understand that listing your timeshare interval for sale does not relieve you of any financial responsibility for fees that may come due on your account during the selling process. 


Would you like to receive a listing agreement to begin the selling process?


Best regards,

______________________________________________________

*Martine Lambert*

Resale Specialist
HILTON GRAND VACATIONS

*T *407-613-3721 | *F *407-613-3720

6355 Metrowest Boulevard, Suite 180, Orlando, FL 32835
======

So I tried calling the 407 number and it went straight to what sounded like a global mailbox for the resale department. No options, or people to talk to. Just an answering machine that says to please e-mail and that the response time is 21 days. I hit "0" and got a beep, so I left a message asking them to call me.

I then wrote the following e-mail to Martine:

Hi Martine,

      Please give me a call at xxx.xxx.xxxx. I need to discuss options with you about purchasing my timeshare back at its full value. I was told during my purchase of this property that Hilton would buy it back for "at least what _ paid but probably more." I am confused about why a year later my timeshare is worth 20-25% what was paid for it despite the economy rising and commercial retail going up in value as well. My only conclusion is that Hilton knows that the equity paid for these properties is a sunken cost but does not disclose that information to potential buyers, and when asked directly about it, will lie and obscure the truth in order to pressure people into buying. I feel the public has a right to know this.

      I will be using this email, as well as phone conversations will Hilton, in a published report.  I will be submitting to news outlets and building a website (I design websites for a living) to notify others of my experience with Hilton. I want to make sure everyone knows what it is they are purchasing and also their rights to rescind soon after their purchase. I will not stop until my website is on the front page of a Google search for "Hilton Grand Vacations" (which shouldn't be difficult to accomplish). Time, energy and cost involved in this is of no concern to me, as it just seems like the right thing to do considering how convoluted this whole process is in getting a real person from Hilton to talk to me about selling my timeshare. I tried calling the phone number in your signature and it goes straight to an answering machine that says I might be reached back in 3 weeks.

      Please forward this email to your manager, corporate relations and Hilton executive offices. Thank you.

Best,
signed

======

Now to think of website domains... open to suggestions. Some thoughts off the top of my head (haven't checked availability yet)
HGVWarning.com
HGVexperience.com
hgvhelp.com
justboughtahiltontimeshare.com
HGVinanutshell.com
myHGVexperience.com
myhgvownership.com
hgvvalue.com
whatismyHGVworth.com
howHGVworks.com_


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## presley

Well, if you are posting the whole story and all the details, they won't want to give you your money back because then everyone who bought from them directly will expect the same. Only what is in the signed contract holds any water at any rate.

What is the reason for wanting to get rid of the contract? Is it because you figured out that your MFs are not worth the 2200 points? If so, you can trade in your contract for a better one at a higher buy in price, but maybe you'll be happier with the MF to annual point cost. Or, is it because you don't want a timeshare after all?

EDIT TO ADD: Just looked for your other thread and I think I have more of an idea of where you are coming from. You can trade in your current contract towards a purchase at one of the Orlando locations where the MFs are lower. They will give you 100% credit towards the new retail purchase. Yes, it will cost more money, but you'll have the one MF and you won't own at Elara where the MFs are so high. 

The other options people posted in that thread are possibilities, too. Sell what you have, even if it only sells for $2K and then buy a 7,000 point annual from a resale agent for $10K or less. You have to do the math on how often you plan to use and how long you plan to own to figure out if it is worth you. You said you are analytical, so that will be easy for you. Your MFs will be around $1,000 all in for a 7,000 point week in Orlando.


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## Sandy VDH

If it is NOT explicitly written on the contract, then it is NOT part of the deal.  It does not matter what the salesman said or promised.  It needs to be written into the deal.


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## Jason245

It seems like a lot of wasted time and effort on your side.  Treat this like 15k tuition on not doing research before your purchase and then either figure out how to get the most use out of it or dump it as a sunk cost. 

Your contract with them governs all and you signed it. 

To be honest,  you would be lucky if you could give that unit away in bargain basement,  so if the resale department can get it sold for 4k I would jump on the opportunity to only lose 12k on the unit. 

Tug has been around for years trying to educate the Public. . Your money is better spent as a member or to sponsor advertising for this site..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Talent312

You are wasting your breath trying to get HGVC make you whole... ain't gonna happen.
What you were told is "puffery" but because it's not in the contract, it don't matter.

Parol evidence (what you were told) cannot add provisions to a contract not there.
The judge will say, "Judgment for Defendant along with attorney's fees and court costs.
_... Of course you might find a hungry lawyer wanting your $$, who'll say something else._

The reality is that this dog is yours and disposing of it is all on you. 

.


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## Nomad420

I think I may have posted this before.  I do feel sorry for you and the sales guys for the most part can be jerks.  Although the guys I dealt with in NYC were pretty straight shooters.  Look, I bought retail from Hilton Club in NYC and I am sure over paid.  But my story, location, and travel patterns are probably different from yours.  IF you think you are going to use it, like the location, use it for YEARS, AND enjoy it you could turn this lemon into lemon aid.  Many posters on this board seem to have a long time of experience with HGVC and seem to be very able and capable to help you turn this mess around. 
Good Luck


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## Tamaradarann

Jason245 said:


> It seems like a lot of wasted time and effort on your side.  Treat this like 15k tuition on not doing research before your purchase and then either figure out how to get the most use out of it or dump it as a sunk cost.
> 
> Your contract with them governs all and you signed it.
> 
> To be honest,  you would be lucky if you could give that unit away in bargain basement,  so if the resale department can get it sold for 4k I would jump on the opportunity to only lose 12k on the unit.
> 
> Tug has been around for years trying to educate the Public. . Your money is better spent as a member or to sponsor advertising for this site..
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I agree that you should look at this as a $15K tuition on timeshare education and that you now know about TUG and buying resale.  Like many people here we bought our first timeshare from the developer.  We then bought 6 more timeshares resale for a total expenditure of about 80K.  We use the developer purchase along with the resale purchases to give us about 120 nights of great vacations every year.  In other words we have absorbed the initial developer purchase into our total portfolio of timeshares and use them all in our annual vacation plans.  In closing I leave you with a positive thought.  Even though you purchased a gold week, which is NOT prime season, it give you 2200 points you have enough points to give you one week in Honolulu in a Studio during prime Platinum Season.  Honolulu Hotel rooms during prime time run at least $300/night.  In view of that, perhaps $835 maintenance isn't so much.


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## 1Kflyerguy

Five or six years ago when we first bought into HGVC, the salesperson also mentioned that HGVC would buy the unit back.  Later in the presentation when i was wavering  on the purchase, i asked about the buy back program, as that seemed too good to be true.  He expanded on the statement, that they will promise to the buy the unit back at full price if i buy another unit.  Basically like trading in your old car when you buy a new one, but you get the original purchase price on your trade in.  

I am not sure if the buy back as part of a trade-in is spelled out in the contract, but i know they will do that.  Many people on TUG have traded their units back for full price, including myself.  I think we got a decent deal when we traded up.  But that is not always the case, and probably it's not the best route more often than it is


As for the website idea, I am not sure if that would work or not.  Certainly some people have had success with similar success with companies in other industries.  The "United Breaks Guitars" video on YouTube comes to mind, but with a Timeshare everything is in the contract, so its harder to re-negotiate.


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## phil1ben

Assuming everything the OP stated is true, I agree that unfortunately he has little recourse. 

It continues to amaze me why so many people do research and due diligence after they have plunked down hard earned money. In any event, HGV stock is up about 15% since issuance little more than a week ago. The only downside in owning the stock is another recession (which is a downside to virtually all publicly traded stock) or increased regulation of the timeshare market......which does not appear on the horizon.


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## Talent312

Trading up with full-credit for the original price of the unit you're trading-in is a standard offer at "owner updates."  The thing is, your're trading one bad-deal for an even bigger bad-deal. But if what you have is unusable, and the OP's nearly is, it may be not a totally outlandish idea.

.


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## SmithOp

As an example of what Talent posted: A year ago I ended up on a call with the resale dept.  I wanted to trade my 2br gold plus EOY at Kingsland for a 1br platinum Premier annual.  The best he could find was a 2br plus annual NYE fixed week and I had to kick in $27K.  I told him I wasn't willing to pay a premium on a fixed event week, he said he could only do a deal with $25K of "new money".

I eventually found a better deal on the resale market and sold the eoy myself on eBay, total "new money" was $10K.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Remy

There was a time a few years back when HGVC right of first refusal on a 7k 2br Las Vegas Strip was over $13,500. Now you can scrape by at $8k and there's one on eBay at $8,999. I didn't buy developer to start. Consider myself one of the lucky ones. But I've made plenty of investments that went south. Anyone buy Bank of America at $26? My response was to dollar cost average the heck out of it when it hit $7. That'd be my advice here. Buy something that works, enjoy it, and if that isn't your Elara 2200 on eBay, it should be soon.


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## Juxtapose

Yeah yeah, the legal stuff... I understand that.  This is more a matter of principal (quite literally and figuratively hehe)... see I already assume the $14,900 is sunken, lost, gone... but that doesn't mean I can't poke and prod at Hilton to see what happens.  It doesn't mean I can't go out of my way to make sure they lose ten or a hundred times that in other sales through my efforts to inform others.  Money isn't the issue, and I have a lot of free time and energy to invest in things.  I am looking to do my part to ensure that no one else falls into the same trap, and my communication with Hilton is a read of their processes.  I'm interested in how things work... and I understand the contract is something that legally means they can ignore me for all they care.  However, I'm interested in creating a scenario where they become aware (this is the hard part) that I'm going to invest a lot of time and more of my own money in order to sink as much of their ability to keep doing this as possible.  I'm not after a net gain, but rather good karma.  Just seems like the right thing to do. I'm sure my ire for their processes will fade with time, but right now I'm happy to investigate this further and begin making an impact on their processes... even if it's just a drop in the bucket I have a goal in mind.


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## Jason245

Juxtapose said:


> Yeah yeah, the legal stuff... I understand that.  This is more a matter of principal (quite literally and figuratively hehe)... see I already assume the $14,900 is sunken, lost, gone... but that doesn't mean I can't poke and prod at Hilton to see what happens.  It doesn't mean I can't go out of my way to make sure they lose ten or a hundred times that in other sales through my efforts to inform others.  Money isn't the issue, and I have a lot of free time and energy to invest in things.  I am looking to do my part to ensure that no one else falls into the same trap, and my communication with Hilton is a read of their processes.  I'm interested in how things work... and I understand the contract is something that legally means they can ignore me for all they care.  However, I'm interested in creating a scenario where they become aware (this is the hard part) that I'm going to invest a lot of time and more of my own money in order to sink as much of their ability to keep doing this as possible.  I'm not after a net gain, but rather good karma.  Just seems like the right thing to do. I'm sure my ire for their processes will fade with time, but right now I'm happy to investigate this further and begin making an impact on their processes... even if it's just a drop in the bucket I have a goal in mind.


Then pay for advertising for tug outside all of their resorts with sales offices. . 

Pay to put tug ahead of them on Google searches of their name. Buy domain names and have them redirect people to tug.  

This group and the main website has been instrumental in saving at least 560 people over 8 million dollars.  

Assuming brian is game, I can not imagine him being against you engaging in advertising on behalf of tug on your dime.  

Obviously I would check with him first. . But paying for a few billboards in Orlando is sure to cause pain to at least a few sales departments. .



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Tamaradarann

Juxtapose said:


> Yeah yeah, the legal stuff... I understand that.  This is more a matter of principal (quite literally and figuratively hehe)... see I already assume the $14,900 is sunken, lost, gone... but that doesn't mean I can't poke and prod at Hilton to see what happens.  It doesn't mean I can't go out of my way to make sure they lose ten or a hundred times that in other sales through my efforts to inform others.  Money isn't the issue, and I have a lot of free time and energy to invest in things.  I am looking to do my part to ensure that no one else falls into the same trap, and my communication with Hilton is a read of their processes.  I'm interested in how things work... and I understand the contract is something that legally means they can ignore me for all they care.  However, I'm interested in creating a scenario where they become aware (this is the hard part) that I'm going to invest a lot of time and more of my own money in order to sink as much of their ability to keep doing this as possible.  I'm not after a net gain, but rather good karma.  Just seems like the right thing to do. I'm sure my ire for their processes will fade with time, but right now I'm happy to investigate this further and begin making an impact on their processes... even if it's just a drop in the bucket I have a goal in mind.



I understand your frustration with buying something that you could have purchased for 1/4 of the cost.  However, you must have purchased the timeshare with some nice vacations in mind.  Since it was the Elara in Las Vegas perhaps the vacationing was in Las Vegas.  Why did you buy this timeshare?  Did HGVC sell you something that you can't do?  I previously mentioned one of the nice flexibilities of the HGVC system was to go to Hawaii even though you didn't buy there.  Another flexibility is you can save points and go for 2 weeks every other year.  You also have the flexibility to go for two short vacations every year. 

Why do you want to spend your time and energy on something that will not benefit you.  TUG members constantly are educating people of the benefits of buying resale rather than from the developer.  Join us in that effort.  But ultimately enjoy what you bought for the reason you bought it or learn the system and find something even better than what you bought.


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## Tamaradarann

Tamaradarann said:


> I understand your frustration with buying something that you could have purchased for 1/4 of the cost.  However, you must have purchased the timeshare with some nice vacations in mind.  Since it was the Elara in Las Vegas perhaps the vacationing was in Las Vegas.  Why did you buy this timeshare?  Did HGVC sell you something that you can't do?  I previously mentioned one of the nice flexibilities of the HGVC system was to go to Hawaii even though you didn't buy there.  Another flexibility is you can save points and go for 2 weeks every other year.  You also have the flexibility to go for two short vacations every year.
> 
> Why do you want to spend your time and energy on something that will not benefit you.  TUG members constantly are educating people of the benefits of buying resale rather than from the developer.  Join us in that effort.  But ultimately enjoy what you bought for the reason you bought it or learn the system and find something even better than what you bought.



Did HGVC sell you something that you can't do?  Before you answer that they sold you on the statement that Hilton would *probably* buy it back for more than you paid for it.  That was not in writing and was NOT a guarantee.  When buying real estate or stock in companies the value is based on the market and the market for a 2200 point is about $3000.


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## Ty1on

Jason245 said:


> Then pay for advertising for tug outside all of their resorts with sales offices. .
> 
> Pay to put tug ahead of them on Google searches of their name. Buy domain names and have them redirect people to tug.
> 
> This group and the main website has been instrumental in saving at least 560 people over 8 million dollars.
> 
> Assuming brian is game, I can not imagine him being against you engaging in advertising on behalf of tug on your dime.
> 
> Obviously I would check with him first. . But paying for a few billboards in Orlando is sure to cause pain to at least a few sales departments. .
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



TUG ads outside the resorts and sales offices is a great idea.  As far as moving TUG up in SEO, however, the bare truth is that the industry depends on pulling clients in cold off the street (or out of the lobby as traditional renters) because they haven't foreseen going to a timeshare presentation and therefore have not endeavored to learn about it.

Billboards outside the resorts that say something like "JUST BOUGHT A TIMESHARE?  YOU HAVE X DAYS TO CANCEL.  www.tugbbs.com for the truth, no fees or charges.  Hell I'll support a couple billboards after I win the lottery.


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## rahulgopi

What will happen to the resale market and timeshare industry if nobody buys developer / retail ?.   Most of them will probably close and rest will be forced to sell the product at somewhere close to market value where buying timeshare makes economic sense. Fire most of the sales and marketing staff, reduce marketing cost and sell a quality product at a price point that makes sense.  IF HGVC sells a 2Br Premium KL unit for around $25K,  I would consider buying retail. HGVC sells it for around $60 /70K retail.


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## Ty1on

rahulgopi said:


> What will happen to the resale market and timeshare industry if nobody buys developer / retail ?.   Most of them will probably close and rest will be forced to sell the product at somewhere close to market value where buying timeshare makes economic sense. Fire most of the sales and marketing staff, reduce marketing cost and sell a quality product at a price point that makes sense.  IF HGVC sells a 2Br Premium KL unit for around $25K,  I would consider buying retail. HGVC sells it for around $60 /70K retail.



The dilemma would remain that the general public doesn't understand timeshare, and wouldn't unilaterally seek out such a purchase.  Today, like 40 years ago, timeshare is sold, not bought.


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## sjuhawk_jd

Juxtapose said:


> Yeah yeah, the legal stuff... I understand that.  This is more a matter of principal (quite literally and figuratively hehe)... see I already assume the $14,900 is sunken, lost, gone... but that doesn't mean I can't poke and prod at Hilton to see what happens.  It doesn't mean I can't go out of my way to make sure they lose ten or a hundred times that in other sales through my efforts to inform others.  Money isn't the issue, and I have a lot of free time and energy to invest in things.  I am looking to do my part to ensure that no one else falls into the same trap, and my communication with Hilton is a read of their processes.  I'm interested in how things work... and I understand the contract is something that legally means they can ignore me for all they care.  However, I'm interested in creating a scenario where they become aware (this is the hard part) that I'm going to invest a lot of time and more of my own money in order to sink as much of their ability to keep doing this as possible.  I'm not after a net gain, but rather good karma.  Just seems like the right thing to do. I'm sure my ire for their processes will fade with time, but right now I'm happy to investigate this further and begin making an impact on their processes... even if it's just a drop in the bucket I have a goal in mind.



I applaud your efforts and my guess is, you will get some desirable result in taking some sales away from hilton. To me, time is not "free", time is money. If you are as good on "internet technologies" as you say you are, than your time is worth lot of money. So, you are investing lot of "money" to inform others and highlight the problems in this industry. Bravo

I would personally invest that time in playing my favorite sport, going to Gym, watching TV etc. But that is me.


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## EnjoyingHGV

Agree.. TUG has educated me quote a bit after buying my Kingsland 2BR EOY  (8400 pts) for ~23.5K...  Did I learn a lot, yes!  Will I buy resale next time -- definitely 
I do agree their sales practices are misleading.. I don't think you are actually saving money, but instead, pre-paying for vacations until you eventually do break even.

See, the problem with me is that I have taken three trips to Kingsland (one as a VIP program, and two as a member).  I go in May (by own choice--which is off season for Hawaii).  I could book KL on hilton.com for for ~2.1K for a week.   Well if I am paying almost 1500 in MF/membership etc, plus the interest on the initial HGVC loan, the break even point is way way down the road.  Now when I used some points to stay in Las Vegas at Elara where the nighly rate for the 2BR suite was threw the roof, yes, I definitely saved some $$.

It is on you to get the "value" out of the purchase... after much research I know the value is there...

I've paid about 5K off of my loan so far, and plan on making extra payments as their APR blows.  In all honesty, these timeshares are only worth it if you have the cash to buy (I told Hilton this at my last owners update...the sales rep couldnt find a good comment to fire back with, other than "ive done my homework"...ha)


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## Queen Dee 0001

Juxtapose said:


> Continuing from my thread last week I decided to make a new one chronicling my experience with HGV as I attempt to persuade them into buying back my timeshare for what they said they would buy it back for in my initial sale.  We all know where this goes, but I'm curious to see how their departments, and teams handle things...
> 
> I own a 2200 point gold week studio at Elara, which I paid $14,900 for a year ago. My maintenance fees (including club dues and all that rest) are in the $875 range, and it came to my attention that I'm actually spending more in those fees than I'm getting out of my 2200 points. Not a surprise to anyone who's spent some time here on this site.  Anyway, it was a surprise to me compared to what I was told I was buying. The part of the sales pitch that stood out to me most is that I directly asked "what if this isn't for me and I want to sell in a year?" and I got a bit of a round about answer saying this was an amazing property and it could only go up. So I asked again and he told me that Hilton would probably buy it back for more than what I paid, but I could at least get back what I'm paying. Right...
> 
> So in the last week I called every Hilton number I could. I spent a few hours on hold, spoke with about a half dozen people. I insisted on speaking to a supervisor but was only ever able to get one on the line (after three requests, where the customer service employee kept telling me what the supervisor was going to e-mail forward on my behalf) "no I'd like to speak with him directly, please." Finally I got Derek on the line. He informed me that resale was another department, and his team wasn't set-up to address my concerns. I asked for a direct contact to them. He said, the resale department cannot be reached by phone, only e-mail and that it takes three weeks to hear back from them. I asked if he had a supervisor he could send me to. He said he was top of the line where I was calling. I asked if Hilton Grand Vacations has an executive office that I could reach, and he informed me that there was a corporate relations office as well as an executive branch but that he's not authorized to put me in touch with them.
> 
> I explained to Derek my concerns about how Hilton Grand Vacation is conducting business, and gave a brief history of my experience. I told him, it's one thing to sell properties to people who don't do their homework, but to flat out lie about the numbers and promise you'll buy them back in order to make the sale seems unethical at a minimum and likely illegal. I told him my plans to create a website to inform the public of my experience and let him know about my history in programming and web development, and knowledge of google ranking systems. Derek seemed like a straight up guy, his voice indicated that he knows and even agreed with what I was saying, but Hilton is his employer, anyway he asked what my goal was in this.  I told him that ultimately my goal is to get my $14,900 back... but that the longer and more difficult the process is to accomplish that, the more likely I am to go the vigilante justice route and spend great amounts of energy, time and money to see to it that the system is exposed through my experience. He told me he would send an urgent request to the resale department as well as corporate relations to reach out to me.
> 
> This morning I received the following e-mail:
> 
> ======
> Hello Mr. _______,
> 
> 
> If you are interested in selling your timeshare interval we can list the timeshare for sale on the resale market.  We work with a network of resale brokers that will advertise to find you a buyer.  The suggested listing price range for your timeshare property is $3,000.00 to $4,000.00.  This is only a suggestion based on current resale market analysis.  You may list your property at any price you wish. The broker commission due on the sale of your Hilton interval will be 25% of the sales price or a minimum of $500.  Please understand that listing your timeshare interval for sale does not relieve you of any financial responsibility for fees that may come due on your account during the selling process.
> 
> 
> Would you like to receive a listing agreement to begin the selling process?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> 
> *Martine Lambert*
> 
> Resale Specialist
> HILTON GRAND VACATIONS
> 
> *T *407-613-3721 | *F *407-613-3720
> 
> 6355 Metrowest Boulevard, Suite 180, Orlando, FL 32835
> ======
> 
> So I tried calling the 407 number and it went straight to what sounded like a global mailbox for the resale department. No options, or people to talk to. Just an answering machine that says to please e-mail and that the response time is 21 days. I hit "0" and got a beep, so I left a message asking them to call me.
> 
> I then wrote the following e-mail to Martine:
> 
> Hi Martine,
> 
> Please give me a call at xxx.xxx.xxxx. I need to discuss options with you about purchasing my timeshare back at its full value. I was told during my purchase of this property that Hilton would buy it back for "at least what _ paid but probably more." I am confused about why a year later my timeshare is worth 20-25% what was paid for it despite the economy rising and commercial retail going up in value as well. My only conclusion is that Hilton knows that the equity paid for these properties is a sunken cost but does not disclose that information to potential buyers, and when asked directly about it, will lie and obscure the truth in order to pressure people into buying. I feel the public has a right to know this.
> 
> I will be using this email, as well as phone conversations will Hilton, in a published report.  I will be submitting to news outlets and building a website (I design websites for a living) to notify others of my experience with Hilton. I want to make sure everyone knows what it is they are purchasing and also their rights to rescind soon after their purchase. I will not stop until my website is on the front page of a Google search for "Hilton Grand Vacations" (which shouldn't be difficult to accomplish). Time, energy and cost involved in this is of no concern to me, as it just seems like the right thing to do considering how convoluted this whole process is in getting a real person from Hilton to talk to me about selling my timeshare. I tried calling the phone number in your signature and it goes straight to an answering machine that says I might be reached back in 3 weeks.
> 
> Please forward this email to your manager, corporate relations and Hilton executive offices. Thank you.
> 
> Best,
> signed
> 
> ======
> 
> Now to think of website domains... open to suggestions. Some thoughts off the top of my head (haven't checked availability yet)
> HGVWarning.com
> HGVexperience.com
> hgvhelp.com
> justboughtahiltontimeshare.com
> HGVinanutshell.com
> myHGVexperience.com
> myhgvownership.com
> hgvvalue.com
> whatismyHGVworth.com
> howHGVworks.com_



I am in the same boat, and reading all the "you should have"'s from others does nothing to remedy the situation. Yes, I should have done more homework, but obviously not the right ones at the right time. Am trying to make lemonade out of this, and HGV sales persons continuing their calls to give me "free" stuff only adds fuel to my fire. I am sick of the whole thing. We don't vacation like we used to, and just spending annual fees for nothing.


----------



## phil1ben

phil1ben said:


> Assuming everything the OP stated is true, I agree that unfortunately he has little recourse.
> 
> It continues to amaze me why so many people do research and due diligence after they have plunked down hard earned money. In any event, HGV stock is up about 15% since issuance little more than a week ago. The only downside in owning the stock is another recession (which is a downside to virtually all publicly traded stock) or increased regulation of the timeshare market......which does not appear on the horizon.



I posted this 1 year ago. The stock is now up 50%. 

Nevertheless, I am as anti-regulation as one can be. However, after watching this scenario play out so many times since I have engaged in the resale market in 2011, I think that some regulation is needed. Fortunately I did my research before buying and enjoy my resale purchase. It appears to me that given the deceit that is rampant in this market it would not be hard to require that a video be made of each sales discussion from introduction to conclusion and then require that video be kept by an issuer for 3 years for all closed sales. Under penalty of voiding the sale, I would also require that no discussion concerning the sale occur outside of the video room. I realize how drastic a step this is, but given the lack of knowledge and experience of most first time time-share buyers I have come to the conclusion that this is necessary. Requiring all representations be in writing does not work because people do not read what is put in front of them.


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## bogey21

My how times have changed in the TS Industry.  About 25 years ago I bought a Sabal Palms Week from Marriott pre-construction.  The Salesman told me that Marriott would mantain the value of my Week and if I wanted to sell, would sell it for me at somewhere around what I paid for it.  So a couple of years later I took them up on it.  They put me in their queue to sell.  Long story in short form is that it took 3 years but even with their 20% (now they get 40%) commission I came out about whole.  While I was waiting to reach the top of the list to sell they rented my Week for me each year netting me a little more than my MFs.  Now look at the industry today.  The bean counters at Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Wyndham, etc. have prevailed at the expense of their customers.

George


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## CalGalTraveler

+1 I like the idea of videotaping but it won't happen without regulation.

IMHO...I am surprised HGVC doesn't have a coordinated program for renting out owner units and reselling on Hilton.com or other sites.  Although owners will earn less than they would themselves on Redweek or Tug they would be getting an EASY rental program for coverage of maintenance fees (+ profit or near coverage depending on the unit) for years owners cannot travel. HGVC could earn incremental income of a percentage of the rental fee.  This is what some condo fractionals do for their owners.

This would increase property values because owners would be less likely to sell if they had an easy way to cover the costs and knew they could sell when needed (via reduced resale supply). It would also boost the value proposition of buying developer since owners would not be taking a bath on reselling.  HGVC HOAs would have fewer delinquencies and dissatisfied customers which would increase efforts toward more positive customer experiences.

Hyatt Kaanapali has some type of program that they discussed with us in a presentation but I don't know details.  I also see that Wyndham/Worldmark have a few sites for renting out timeshares, however I do not know if this is excess inventory they own or whether this is a bonafide program to help owners rent their units/points.


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## Mosescan

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 I like the idea of videotaping but it won't happen without regulation.
> 
> IMHO...I am surprised HGVC doesn't have a coordinated program for renting out owner units and reselling on Hilton.com or other sites.  Although owners will earn less than they would themselves on Redweek or Tug they would be getting an EASY rental program for coverage of maintenance fees (+ profit or near coverage depending on the unit) for years owners cannot travel. HGVC could earn incremental income of a percentage of the rental fee.  This is what some condo fractionals do for their owners.
> 
> This would increase property values because owners would be less likely to sell if they had an easy way to cover the costs and knew they could sell when needed (via reduced resale supply). It would also boost the value proposition of buying developer since owners would not be taking a bath on reselling.  HGVC HOAs would have fewer delinquencies and dissatisfied customers which would increase efforts toward more positive customer experiences.
> 
> Hyatt Kaanapali has some type of program that they discussed with us in a presentation but I don't know details.  I also see that Wyndham/Worldmark have a few sites for renting out timeshares, however I do not know if this is excess inventory they own or whether this is a bonafide program to help owners rent their units/points.


This needs to be presented to someone in management who can see the numbers and realize they could increase profits. If it will make them more money then they would do it. BUT there has to be a big enough increase in profits to make it worth their while.


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## CalGalTraveler

Mosescan said:


> This needs to be presented to someone in management who can see the numbers and realize they could increase profits. If it will make them more money then they would do it. BUT there has to be a big enough increase in profits to make it worth their while.



Agree. In addition to easy profit (this would be akin to adding another fee), this would differentiate the HGVC brand with a unique way to add more comfort to the buyer.  Too many people have heard the horror stories of being locked in to a timeshare or having family/health issues and not being able to use; this affects resale value as well as makes it harder to sell developer because of stories on the Internet.

I also see it as a big cost savings of not having to hire so many lawyers and collection agencies to manage delinquencies.  They could offer this service until the owner is able to get back on his/her feet again or is able to sell.

If they had a program like this, I would be inclined to buy more units because I know I would be covered for excess years when I don't need the points.


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## GTLINZ

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 I like the idea of videotaping but it won't happen without regulation.
> 
> IMHO...I am surprised HGVC doesn't have a coordinated program for renting out owner units and reselling on Hilton.com or other sites.  Although owners will earn less than they would themselves on Redweek or Tug they would be getting an EASY rental program for coverage of maintenance fees (+ profit or near coverage depending on the unit) for years owners cannot travel. HGVC could earn incremental income of a percentage of the rental fee.  This is what some condo fractionals do for their owners.



I believe that Hilton does rent HGVC units thru hilton.com - but they are not returning any of that to any owner that I know of ...


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## CalGalTraveler

GTLINZ said:


> I believe that Hilton does rent HGVC units thru hilton.com - but they are not returning any of that to any owner that I know of ...



They are marketing inventory that they own. I am referring to working with owners to rent their ownership interest via Hilton.com etc.


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## Mosescan

CalGalTraveler said:


> They are marketing inventory that they own. I am referring to working with owners to rent their ownership interest via Hilton.com etc.


They do it in Scotland. 20% commission and 4% VAT. That’s one of the reasons I own there.


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## Arimaas

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 I like the idea of videotaping but it won't happen without regulation.
> 
> IMHO...I am surprised HGVC doesn't have a coordinated program for renting out owner units and reselling on Hilton.com or other sites.  Although owners will earn less than they would themselves on Redweek or Tug they would be getting an EASY rental program for coverage of maintenance fees (+ profit or near coverage depending on the unit) for years owners cannot travel. HGVC could earn incremental income of a percentage of the rental fee.  This is what some condo fractionals do for their owners.
> 
> This would increase property values because owners would be less likely to sell if they had an easy way to cover the costs and knew they could sell when needed (via reduced resale supply). It would also boost the value proposition of buying developer since owners would not be taking a bath on reselling.  HGVC HOAs would have fewer delinquencies and dissatisfied customers which would increase efforts toward more positive customer experiences.
> 
> Hyatt Kaanapali has some type of program that they discussed with us in a presentation but I don't know details.  I also see that Wyndham/Worldmark have a few sites for renting out timeshares, however I do not know if this is excess inventory they own or whether this is a bonafide program to help owners rent their units/points.



I believe Wyndham allows owners to put their points into a pool, and then others can rent them. I just bought into Wyndham and waiting for the sale to close, so don't know the ins and outs yet. They also let you convert your points into maintenance fee charges (obviously at a terrible rate). Lastly, an interesting program they have is Wyndham Ovation, where they will take back the Timeshare from the owner (they don't pay the owner anything, but it gets the unit off the owners hands - also I believe sometimes Wyndham will through some points at the owner - enough for a few years of vacations). I think Wyndham does this to keep the resales down (they don't have ROFR).


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## CalGalTraveler

Mosescan said:


> They do it in Scotland. 20% commission and 4% VAT. That’s one of the reasons I own there.



That's interesting. Can you provide more details on the program? e.g. do you have to reserve then deposit it for rent at a certain time? what if they don't find a renter? Are owners realizing a profit?  If so how much?


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## DallasLoneStar

Funny story, the whole way I even found out about HGVC was about 5-6 weeks ago booking the trip I am leaving for tomorrow... 5 nights at Grand Waikikian for my cousin's wedding.  The hotel was sold out (or only had super expensive rooms) and I am staying with my sister since neither of our spouses could go, so I thought great, 1BR suite with 2 double beds, ocean view, sounds better than just a normal hotel room, a little more privacy for getting changed etc.  Got 5 nights for $2,161 all in (with taxes, resort charge of $175, etc).  Then I got the "will you stay on the line for XXX HHonors points to hear about blah blah" and I thought fine I have a few minutes.

You know how the story goes... I ended up taking 3 nights in DC for something like $200 (I go there for work all the time, and I am self employed so its on my dime) plus after I her their timeshare schpiel (with my wife) I get another $200 towards a stay at a Hilton.  Never really took timeshares seriously but I started looking into this HGVC and fast forward about 5 weeks and here I am... 

Spent a ton of time reading about all this and looking at listed units, but it was time well spent since we will definitely not be buying retail when we go to DC in September.  For now we are thinking about buying at Valdoro but since those don't go cheap, we may try to rent and visit this summer. 

And I got way off topic but the point was, Hilton did rent out the Grand Waikikian unit to me directly.  I sort of didn't realize I was actually renting a timeshare.


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## DallasLoneStar

CalGalTraveler said:


> They are marketing inventory that they own. I am referring to working with owners to rent their ownership interest via Hilton.com etc.



Are we really 100% sure they account somehow for what days are "owned" by owners versus ones in "inventory?"  Since there are still issues with owners not being able to get certain locations/units/weeks they want, I am just curious.  Can Hilton only rent them out within 30-45 days of check in?  Otherwise I feel like they would be taking spots owners could use.  I do understand that if there are 100 1 BR units and they have sold 2000 weeks of 1BRs at that resort with a 30 week platinum season, then there are 1000 platinum weeks (10 per unit) left that are technically "unsold."  Just curious if any of this is in writing, part of your contract, etc.


----------



## Mosescan

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's interesting. Can you provide more details on the program? e.g. do you have to reserve then deposit it for rent at a certain time? what if they don't find a renter? Are owners realizing a profit?  If so how much?


At Craigendarroch where I own we have fixed weeks. You just don’t convert your week to points. They will try and rent it out for you. If it’s not rented by 35 days prior you can convert to points or go yourself. Rents vary depending on when you own.


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## SmithOp

DallasLoneStar said:


> Are we really 100% sure they account somehow for what days are "owned" by owners versus ones in "inventory?"  Since there are still issues with owners not being able to get certain locations/units/weeks they want, I am just curious.  Can Hilton only rent them out within 30-45 days of check in?  Otherwise I feel like they would be taking spots owners could use.  I do understand that if there are 100 1 BR units and they have sold 2000 weeks of 1BRs at that resort with a 30 week platinum season, then there are 1000 platinum weeks (10 per unit) left that are technically "unsold."  Just curious if any of this is in writing, part of your contract, etc.



I’m not sure where you are getting your information about owners not being able to get units they want, I have never been denied booking what I own at 12-9 months in advance during home season.  There is nothing in any contracts that guarantee anything else, club and open season is first come, first served.

I couldn’t follow your example, the math made my head spin.  

Its all spelled out in the Club Rules, you should download and read it in full, here is the relevant section on use by HGV:

Use of Accommodations by HGV. 

Beginning the first day of the Open Season reservation window, Hilton Grand Vacations reserves the right to utilize accommodations for its own purposes including for exchange, inspection visits, promotions, rentals, special programs, or any other purposes in Hilton Grand Vacations’ sole discretion.  Additionally, when a Member exchanges their ClubPoints for benefits or services other than Affiliated Resort accommodations, such as ClubPartner Perk reservations or Honors points, Hilton Grand Vacations must pay the third party for the Member’s use thereof.  As such, Hilton Grand Vacations, in its sole discretion, may rent or otherwise use the accommodations relinquished by that Member or other unused inventory to cover the cost of such third-party benefits and services.  

In renting accommodations as described herein, HGV may use historical reservation data for the property to forecast the accommodations projected to remain unused by Club Members or to be used by Club Members for other benefits and services requiring monetization by HGVC and rent such accommodations prior to the start of the Open Season reservation window in order to maximize occupancy levels at the property.  

Additionally, inventory owned by a developer or an affiliated resort and not yet sold, may be made available for reservation by Members or used by the developer for any purpose including but not limited to, exchange, rental, Elite privileges and promotional purposes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## CalGalTraveler

DallasLoneStar said:


> Are we really 100% sure they account somehow for what days are "owned" by owners versus ones in "inventory?"  Since there are still issues with owners not being able to get certain locations/units/weeks they want, I am just curious.  Can Hilton only rent them out within 30-45 days of check in?  Otherwise I feel like they would be taking spots owners could use.  I do understand that if there are 100 1 BR units and they have sold 2000 weeks of 1BRs at that resort with a 30 week platinum season, then there are 1000 platinum weeks (10 per unit) left that are technically "unsold."  Just curious if any of this is in writing, part of your contract, etc.



Your rental was of an unsold HGVC developer inventory unit. It is not taking away from owner's inventory as those must to be set aside for owners by law - there was a lawsuit a few years ago with RCI (or some company like it.)


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## DallasLoneStar

I guess at the end of the day, what I mean is they have to have some sort of formula or system to determine what is “available” to rent. My hunch is that “open season” is basically competing (but at a discounted rate) with online and phone reservations from Hilton. But here is a more extreme example:

What if all 2000 weeks of a resort’s platinum season 1BR owners of a resort with 3000 platinums weeks all decided they want Fourth of July week but there are only 100 of those?

I know that would never happen. But what if only 5% of platinum week owners really wanted to go that week. Wouldn’t there be a lot of competition? Am I getting the math wrong?  I hope I am because it doesn’t seem that far fetched that 5% of the current owners of a hot summer season in a popular resort wouldn’t want to go during the same week. If so, it would be fully booked. And in essence, isn’t that mathematically how a week gets fully booked? I guess the question is how quickly can or does that happen? 

At 12:05am ET? By 3pm that same day? Or is it something like a month later?

It obviously happens at some point during the 3 month window, or at 9 months anyone could book Valdoro for 4th of July week if they did it at 12:01am 9 months out!

Now, I don’t think they are renting owners weeks on the website.  But I am curious when they do start renting them. Could I have made this reservation for Waikiki three months ago and then an owner at another HGVC resort would have then seen no availability?


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## JIMinNC

DallasLoneStar said:


> Are we really 100% sure they account somehow for what days are "owned" by owners versus ones in "inventory?"  Since there are still issues with owners not being able to get certain locations/units/weeks they want, I am just curious.  Can Hilton only rent them out within 30-45 days of check in?  Otherwise I feel like they would be taking spots owners could use.  I do understand that if there are 100 1 BR units and they have sold 2000 weeks of 1BRs at that resort with a 30 week platinum season, then there are 1000 platinum weeks (10 per unit) left that are technically "unsold."  Just curious if any of this is in writing, part of your contract, etc.



Your answer is in post #36.

Basically, anytime an owner converts their week to Hilton Honors points, HGV has to pay Hilton hotels for those Honors points. So HGV gains control of that week and can rent it on hilton.com for cash to recoup the out of pocket cost they paid for this Hilton Honors points. Unsold intervals are also controlled by HGV and they have the option to rent those as well. Finally, they know from historical booking patterns the weeks that will likely have unreserved weeks (probably NOT your July 4 example, of course!). So, as post #36 says, "HGV may use historical reservation data for the property to forecast the accommodations projected to remain unused by Club Members or to be used by Club Members for other benefits and services requiring monetization by HGVC *[i.e. Honors Points conversions]* and rent such accommodations prior to the start of the Open Season reservation window in order to maximize occupancy levels at the property."


----------



## CalGalTraveler

DallasLoneStar said:


> I guess at the end of the day, what I mean is they have to have some sort of formula or system to determine what is “available” to rent. My hunch is that “open season” is basically competing (but at a discounted rate) with online and phone reservations from Hilton. But here is a more extreme example:
> 
> What if all 2000 weeks of a resort’s platinum season 1BR owners of a resort with 3000 platinums weeks all decided they want Fourth of July week but there are only 100 of those?
> 
> I know that would never happen. But what if only 5% of platinum week owners really wanted to go that week. Wouldn’t there be a lot of competition? Am I getting the math wrong?  I hope I am because it doesn’t seem that far fetched that 5% of the current owners of a hot summer season in a popular resort wouldn’t want to go during the same week. If so, it would be fully booked. And in essence, isn’t that mathematically how a week gets fully booked? I guess the question is how quickly can or does that happen?
> 
> At 12:05am ET? By 3pm that same day? Or is it something like a month later?
> 
> It obviously happens at some point during the 3 month window, or at 9 months anyone could book Valdoro for 4th of July week if they did it at 12:01am 9 months out!
> 
> Now, I don’t think they are renting owners weeks on the website.  But I am curious when they do start renting them. Could I have made this reservation for Waikiki three months ago and then an owner at another HGVC resort would have then seen no availability?



It sounds like you are asking two questions:

_1) Can HGVC take a popular week and rent it out?  _

Possible but unlikely, see Post #36. Beyond the sales mess, HGVC strives to be fair to owners and provide a good experience.

_2) Can there be too many owners vying for for a popular week?  _

Yes.  However this is a bigger problem with systems like Vistana Westin and Marriott Ocean Club where 50 weeks a year are platinum on Maui and all owners want the summer or whale season. Owners frequently complain that they cannot get access to their units during popular weeks.

HGVC realizes less pressure for this because

a) HGVC limits Platinum seasons so you don't have all 50 weeks able to secure a popular home week.

b) Because HGVC offers additional flexibility with points to book exact days and room upgrade or downgrade, many owners don't use their home week, which makes for Club reservation opportunities.  YMMV on the ski properties, but popular HGVC Hawaii properties can be reserved at 9 months except for event weeks.  I was able to book a Park City studio for February about 4 months out with Club reservations when there were cancellations.


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## GTLINZ

CalGalTraveler said:


> They are marketing inventory that they own. I am referring to working with owners to rent their ownership interest via Hilton.com etc.



I do understand what you are saying. I am suggesting that they may also be renting out unused owner inventory. Do you know for sure they cannot?  If they can, then why help the owners if you can profit from it?


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## jestme

GTLINZ said:


> I do understand what you are saying. I am suggesting that they may also be renting out unused owner inventory. Do you know for sure they cannot?  If they can, then why help the owners if you can profit from it?


I agree. When I bought, I was told he Lagoon tower and the Kalia tower were virtually sold out. Then they built the Grand Waikikian, and about 5 years ago, they said it was sold out, so they built the Grand Islander. Each time, they pre-sell the buildings, but give out points to the owners, even though the building isn't there yet to provide usable inventory. Then there are the familiarization trips they sell for around $1700 each, a bunch of which are used in Hawaii. Add to that, club season exchanges into the HHV, bonus points and bulk deposits to RCI. 
Every time I go, I hear from convention attendees that they are staying in the Lagoon or Waikikian tower. Lots of them, and they booked them months in advance. Where does all that room inventory come from? We keep hearing it comes from people who exchange for HHonors points, or cruises, etc. That seems like a lot of inventory to be holding, and really be paying MF's for. Maybe I'm wrong, however, I can book the Lagoon on Hilton.com almost a year out, when Club Season hasn't even opened yet. 
I agree, an external audit of their point usage would be greatly accepted by the owners.


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## tk25

I think that 2200 point Elara Package with over $800 annual fees is worth at most $1.0 and in fact you may have to pay someone to take it off your hands.


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## Juxtapose

As a follow-up to this story... I was eventually contacted by a representative from HGV who offered me 2200 bonus points with no apparent stipulations (simply to appease me) which I felt was a bit unusual. I guess they do have a PR department...

I stayed at one of the Orlando properties last week (using my points for the year and that bonus) and went to a sales pitch.  I told the guy my situation and asked him to bypass the show (sales stuff) and simply talk the numbers.  I told him about the resale market and my awareness of the differences (or lack there of) in what a person gets buying there vs. from him.  I was also surprised that the sales rep I had was perfectly fine engaging in this.  I informed him that I felt my timeshare was worthless, and he agreed. He suggested (of course) that I buy more to make it a better investment. I chuckled at the word investment, and we had a short talk about where that money actually goes.  He couldn't help by revert back to the sales pitch side over and over but I kept directing him back to the point...

I do enjoy using HGV properties and could see myself using between 5000-7000 a year for the next 30+ years... but I'm not willing to put $30,000 or more down to get there.  I said I view the $14,900 I spent already as a mistake, and I'm not looking to make another mistake to cover over the previous one.  The best I could get him to negotiate down to was...

$15,400 more (plus $1,100 in closing and that $300 app fee) which he stated was 5% off of the rates they had in 2015 when I originally bought - moving up to a Gold 1 Bd room (I believe) in Elara by selling back to them what I own and applying it towards the 5000 point one. He said it was a special thing they were doing for buyers in my situation... he admitted it was an attempt to get up up to a respectable level of ownership and spent a good deal of time bashing and distancing himself (and HGV) from the guy who sold me what I currently own. He talked as though HGV doesn't allow that kind of selling to happen anymore (right...). After I sat there running numbers in my head (value per points over 10 and 20 years) he eventually asked if I was ok... I said "yeah I'm a numbers guy... just doing math right now..." he left me alone for 5 minutes and came back and asked what he could do to make the sale work. He knew I was about to walk. So I said... honestly... dropping that price $5,000 and I would probably go for it. I said, but as I understanding... you guys can't do that? He confirmed. So I said... "that is where you guys offer bonus points huh?" and he nodded. But then he said they almost never do when they already are giving things away at such a reduced rate. So I said... ok I guess we are done here. So he asked what amount of bonus points would get it done. I said... "honestly 20,000 if I could use them over the next 5 years"... because I'd value that at about $5,000. He laughed and said "seriously?" I knew he couldn't do that. So he offered 5,000 and I stood up to leave, then he offered 10,000 bonus points with the prices above.

So for roughly $17,000 I would move to 5000 points a year and my MF would only go up about $100. This is a better deal than what I started with, but I would imagine $17,000 in the resale market will get me a lot more. I think my best bet at this point is to sell what I had... even if I just give it away... and buy resale. What do you guys think?

I know I could get 7000 points or more on the resale market for a relatively similar MF as Elara for less then that $17,000 - the only concern I have is ability to unload the 2200 points I currently have - will I have to pay someone to take it? Can I give it away? What is the best way to go about that?

I have 7 days left to rescind the above offer for 5000 points... which I will do by default this week unless people advise otherwise. Wanted to ask the experts here what you all think. Appreciate the help.


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## CalGalTraveler

@Juxtapose Thanks for sharing the update. It is informative to hear what they proposed.

*3Rs: R*escind, *R*esearch, buy *R*esale.

For $17,000 you could buy resale *two *_(that's 2!) _*7000 point Vegas units at Blvd., Paradise, Flamingo, or Elara.*  These go for about $1 a point plus $1,500 closing fees i.e. approx. $8,500 - $9,500 all in for 7K annual points. You can do better for 5k points but will pay the same maintenance fee. Use the extra $8,500 difference to spend on plane tickets, activities and meals for your future vacations.  Look on Tug and Redweek for listings.

Sell/give away your old unit, or simply stay and enjoy, or add the 2,200 points to to your 7K to make 9.2k points a year; the maintenance fees are not bad at Elara and it is a nice resort.

We feel your pain as many of us made our first purchase via the developer and overpaid. However it is a sunk cost now. Most Tuggers have offset the difference with lower cost resale purchases and cost-efficient platinum MF units with a lower price per point.

Good luck!


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## JIMinNC

Juxtapose said:


> I think I could get 7000 points or more on the resale market for a relatively similar MF rate as Elara for that 17,000 right? I have 7 days left to rescind the above offer... which I tend to do by default this week unless people advise otherwise. Wanted to ask the experts here what you all think. Appreciate the help.



Earlier this year, I bought a resale 7000 point HGVC Sea World for $6500 plus closing fees/transfer fee/activation fee (all-in cost about $8,000). Annual maintenance fee of about $1100 ($0.16/point), so including club dues annual costs are $1270 ($0.18/point).


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## magmue

> ...moving up to a Gold 1 Bd room (I believe) in Elara by selling back to them what I own and applying it towards the 5000 point one. He said it was a special thing they were doing for buyers in my situation...So for roughly $17,000 I would move to 5000 points a year and my MF would only go up about $100.


But you'd still have a gold week instead of a platinum week. Platinum 1 BR Grand Plus at Elara would give you 7800 points per year, for a very similar MF of $883/year. And with platinum, it might retain some value when time comes to sell someday. He sold you someone else's semi-worthless 1 BR gold week while telling you what a "special thing" they were doing for you in taking back your semi-worthless studio gold week.


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## Juxtapose

I'm just being a little paranoid about the language in my rescission letter here since the purchase included the transfer of equity from a previous contract.  Does the following look right?

===

Gentlemen:

Regarding contract 35-54xxxx for purchase of a timeshare at Elara Resort signed March 29th 2018. I am exercising my legal right to cancel this contract. I expect a full refund of my deposit of $x,xxx.xx.  Also please cancel the transfer of equity from my old contract 35-51xxxx. Do not make any additional charges to my credit card. Please confirm my legal rescission in writing.

xxxxxxxxxxx
===

I added the part that says "Also please cancel the transfer of equity from my old contract 35-51xxxx." Is it necessary to have that in there? 

I added it because there is an individual set of forms earlier in the packet signed where only that old contract is listed (as a sale) - later in the packet it then refers to the transfer contact as old and the newer number contact as new. Most rescissions seem to not involve the transfer of equity so I didn't want leaving that out to void it (again maybe I'm just being paranoid?) My old contract was 35-51xxxx and the new one (that I'm trying to rescind) is 35-54xxxx. In all liklihood the cancellation of 35-54xxxx (new contract) includes cancelling everything included within, which also covers the transfer of equity from the other (old contract). Right?


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## GTLINZ

magmue said:


> But you'd still have a gold week instead of a platinum week. Platinum 1 BR Grand Plus at Elara would give you 7800 points per year, for a very similar MF of $883/year. And with platinum, it might retain some value when time comes to sell someday. He sold you someone else's semi-worthless 1 BR gold week while telling you what a "special thing" they were doing for you in taking back your semi-worthless studio gold week.



I completely agree. HGVC is great at peddling GOLD and even SILVER units which are not good at MF per point - and usually worth very little on the open market and therefore hard to sell later. A regular plat 1br in Vegas or Orlando is 4800 points and less MF than a 2br and not too expensive. A gold 2br unit for 17k is not a good deal.  The ONLY silver lining is that the quoted price should include closing costs, which are getting expensive - but that still is only a small slice of that 17k.

I will use 2k as a worst case scenario for closing costs - it might cost you 5k after closing to get a Plat 1br 4800 unit in Vegas with comparable MF to your Elara studio (which is the real issue - that MF for 2200 points is very high). Then if you paid closing costs and gave your unit away, you spend 2k.  7k is better than 17k !  Or you could go for 7000 points and maybe spend 10k with closing and 2k to get rid of your unit. Still better and you have more points and a comparable MF to their deal.

You can , as suggested above, go for an even better deal pm MFs per point but because of that ratio you tend to pay a premium to purchase.  You may find one that saves you enough to make it worthwhile  - just chart out a 10 year comparision.  My scenarios are not as imaginative but plentiful. And Vegas tends to have lower MFs.

The number of ways to beat that deal is staggering.


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## chriskre

If MF's are a big concern you might want to consider an EOY unit instead.
I own a few EOY units for a few reasons, one is to keep my costs down,
another reason is so I can own in several systems and widen my vacation
options and in case things go south with one developer I'm not over
committed.  

I own an EOY Gold at Tuscany that I paid very little for in the
recession.  I've done well with it mostly because I live in FL and there are
alot of HGVC resorts here but I also supplement with Open Season and 
RCI exchanges into other HGVC resorts if I need more than one unit.
I've done this in Vegas and Hawaii without a problem coordinating
the club ressies with the RCI exchange.  You could use the other EOY
timeshare to get the RCI HGVC unit.  

You can also bank and borrow points from one year to another to 
have more points.  The only negative is that you still have to pay a club
fee on the off years but I have managed to make my EOY function as
an annual for the years that I've owned it and have taken an HGVC
vacation every single year.  

Rescind that puppy and do some more research.
You aren't quite ready to commit to another possible mistake.
Trust me you will probably be able to get that deal again next year
with a new guy or just head to Orlando.  LOL


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## Renee Farr

SmithOp said:


> As an example of what Talent posted: A year ago I ended up on a call with the resale dept.  I wanted to trade my 2br gold plus EOY at Kingsland for a 1br platinum Premier annual.  The best he could find was a 2br plus annual NYE fixed week and I had to kick in $27K.  I told him I wasn't willing to pay a premium on a fixed event week, he said he could only do a deal with $25K of "new money".
> 
> I eventually found a better deal on the resale market and sold the eoy myself on eBay, total "new money" was $10K.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How do you go about selling on ebay?  Who did the paperwork portion for you?


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## SmithOp

Renee Farr said:


> How do you go about selling on ebay?  Who did the paperwork portion for you?



I just found one like it listed on eBay and used the “Sell one like this” link.  I set the minimum bid price at the lowest I was willing to accept, $3k.

We used Legal Timeshare Transfers to handle the transaction, buyer paid approx $200 fee.  Buyer sent the $3k cashiers check to LTT and they held it until transfer was complete, then sent to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## 4Sunsets

Renee Farr said:


> How do you go about selling on ebay?  Who did the paperwork portion for you?



I would put the unit up for sale on Redweek as a verified listing. Redweek is much more on the up and up than ebay listings. They also offer escrow services.


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## magmue

> ,,,Redweek as a verified listing.


If you search the Buying Selling Renting forum, many TUGgers have found the Verified listings on Redweek so frustrating, in terms of timely and helpful responses, that they avoid them as prospective buyers.


> Redweek is much more on the up and up than ebay listings


That would apply to buying, but probably not so much to selling.


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## 4Sunsets

magmue said:


> If you search the Buying Selling Renting forum, many TUGgers have found the Verified listings on Redweek so frustrating, in terms of timely and helpful responses, that they avoid them as prospective buyers.
> 
> That would apply to buying, but probably not so much to selling.



Um, NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE. What they might find frustrating is having to pay for verification as a seller. As a buyer, one should absolutely be glad someone is at least checking the basics and providing escrow options to safeguard transactions.


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## dayooper

4Sunsets said:


> Um, NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE. What they might find frustrating is having to pay for verification as a seller. As a buyer, one should absolutely be glad someone is at least checking the basics and providing escrow options to safeguard transactions.



It's not the basics, fact checking and escrow. It's the communication that Redweek provides. What was supposed to be two business days before they returned my inquiry turned into over a week (and I had to contact the owner via PM here on Tug). If it wasn't such a great price, I would have not pushed it at all. This is minor to what has been reported by other Tuggers.

While I agree with you in principle, the execution of the Redweek's full service needs a lot of work. There are numerous instances where what was verified not correct for various reasons. I have noticed they have a third option in between basic and full where they verify the MF's, points accrued and the like. You still negotiate and set up your own deed transfer.

I would purchase a Redweek full service again? Yes, if the price was right. Would I sell using Redweek? Only their basic. As a new buyer, I never checked eBay. I wouldn't recommend, too much to know and you might not know what to look for if you haven't been through the process. As a seller? No! I would recommend using Redweek Basic and using a trusted place like LT Transfers to do the escrow.


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## hurnik

4Sunsets said:


> Um, NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE. What they might find frustrating is having to pay for verification as a seller. As a buyer, one should absolutely be glad someone is at least checking the basics and providing escrow options to safeguard transactions.



I dunno, I see quite a few complaints regarding redweek's sales process (renting seems to be smooth):

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/redweek-full-service-listings.289736/

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/redweek-resale-slow.287906/

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ue-diligence-on-purchase-of-timeshare.287321/


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## 4Sunsets

dayooper said:


> It's not the basics, fact checking and escrow. It's the communication that Redweek provides. What was supposed to be two business days before they returned my inquiry turned into over a week (and I had to contact the owner via PM here on Tug). If it wasn't such a great price, I would have not pushed it at all. This is minor to what has been reported by other Tuggers.
> 
> While I agree with you in principle, the execution of the Redweek's full service needs a lot of work. There are numerous instances where what was verified not correct for various reasons. I have noticed they have a third option in between basic and full where they verify the MF's, points accrued and the like. You still negotiate and set up your own deed transfer.
> 
> I would purchase a Redweek full service again? Yes, if the price was right. Would I sell using Redweek? Only their basic. As a new buyer, I never checked eBay. I wouldn't recommend, too much to know and you might not know what to look for if you haven't been through the process. As a seller? No! I would recommend using Redweek Basic and using a trusted place like LT Transfers to do the escrow.



Good points.... We've (my family) used Redweek to buy and sell. We've successfully bought 4 and sold 2. Redweek was also where we found our new HGVC (2 units) (in process). 

Redweek doesn't seem to have staff working weekends/holidays, but I would trust Redweek over Ebay every day, every time. 

I'll update on how this goes for the new buys. So far, very slow, but this is on the seller side via their agent/realtor.


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## JIMinNC

4Sunsets said:


> Good points.... We've (my family) used Redweek to buy and sell. We've successfully bought 4 and sold 2. Redweek was also where we found our new HGVC (2 units) (in process).
> 
> Redweek doesn't seem to have staff working weekends/holidays, but I would trust Redweek over Ebay every day, every time.
> 
> I'll update on how this goes for the new buys. So far, very slow, but this is on the seller side via their agent/realtor.



I tend to concur with this assessment. We are also using Redweek full service right now to buy a Marriott. Communication has been good and the process moved along promptly, at least up until we got to the point of filing the Hawaii HARPTA tax (a unique Hawaii requirement) and getting the transaction closed. Things have slowed down a bit over the last few weeks. Based on the last email from the Hawaii closing company, closing should have happened last week, but no news yet.


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## Pathways

magmue said:


> If you search the Buying Selling Renting forum, many TUGgers have found the Verified listings on Redweek so frustrating, in terms of timely and helpful responses, that they avoid them as prospective buyers.
> 
> That would apply to buying, but probably not so much to selling.



100% true.




4Sunsets said:


> Um, NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE. What they might find frustrating is having to pay for verification as a seller. As a buyer, one should absolutely *be glad someone is at least checking the basics *and providing escrow options to safeguard transactions.



Sorry to be blunt, but this is just plain false.  As I buyer who has used Redweek, RW verified, and RW full service, they do NOT fully verify anything.  I have documented this numerous times.  I avoid a Redweek VF or FS week at all cost unless the week is unique (like a certain unit within the Hyatt system) and I don't have a choice.

I have a purchase right now moving forward with  RW FS (which of course is also 'verified') The RW rep could not honestly answer four basic and very important questions about the timeshare week.  The comment every time was "the seller says" and there was NO, I repeat NO documentation to verify. It took over three weeks to get the documentation from the seller, which proved some of the 'verified' statements were incorrect.

Other posters clearly have these issues as they also comment here that they try to avoid dealing with RW

Full disclosure here - Redweek gets a lot of my money as I use them to list my rentals.  Great platform for that. My only issue is with the VF and FS


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## JIMinNC

JIMinNC said:


> I tend to concur with this assessment. We are also using Redweek full service right now to buy a Marriott. Communication has been good and the process moved along promptly, at least up until we got to the point of filing the Hawaii HARPTA tax (a unique Hawaii requirement) and getting the transaction closed. Things have slowed down a bit over the last few weeks. Based on the last email from the Hawaii closing company, closing should have happened last week, but no news yet.



As a follow-up to my post earlier today...as irony would have it, an envelope arrived in the mail today from the Hawaii closing company Redweek used for our purchase through their full service broker. The transaction closed on May 22. Total transaction took slightly over two months, which is consistent with most other closings we've done in the last couple of years:

March 17 -- Offer to Seller submitted by Redweek broker
March 17 -- Seller accepts our offer
March 17 -- Received initial information paperwork via email from Redweek
March 19 -- Information form submitted to Redweek contracts dept
March 21 -- Received contract electronically
March 23 -- signed contract electronically
March 26 -- Contract and deposit sent to Hawaii closing company (Old Republic)
March 29 -- Contract submitted to Marriott for ROFR
April 4 -- Marriott waives ROFR
April 16 -- Escrow signing packet received from Old Republic
April 17 -- Documents and payment returned to Old Republic via UPS
May 1 -- Seller's documents received by Old Republic
May 17 -- HARPTA Tax exemption approval received from State of Hawaii
May 22 -- Deed recorded and external transfer form sent to Marriott Vacation Club
TBD -- Week transferred into our MVC account


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## 4Sunsets

JIMinNC said:


> As a follow-up to my post earlier today...as irony would have it, an envelope arrived in the mail today from the Hawaii closing company Redweek used for our purchase through their full service broker. The transaction closed on May 22. Total transaction took slightly over two months, which is consistent with most other closings we've done in the last couple of years:
> 
> March 17 -- Offer to Seller submitted by Redweek broker
> March 17 -- Seller accepts our offer
> March 17 -- Received initial information paperwork via email from Redweek
> March 19 -- Information form submitted to Redweek contracts dept
> March 21 -- Received contract electronically
> March 23 -- signed contract electronically
> March 26 -- Contract and deposit sent to Hawaii closing company (Old Republic)
> March 29 -- Contract submitted to Marriott for ROFR
> April 4 -- Marriott waives ROFR
> April 16 -- Escrow signing packet received from Old Republic
> April 17 -- Documents and payment returned to Old Republic via UPS
> May 1 -- Seller's documents received by Old Republic
> May 17 -- HARPTA Tax exemption approval received from State of Hawaii
> May 22 -- Deed recorded and external transfer form sent to Marriott Vacation Club
> TBD -- Week transferred into our MVC account



Congrats!


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