# Microsoft's Surface Pro Tablet Changes the Game



## MULTIZ321 (Jan 10, 2013)

Microsoft's Surface Pro Tablet Changes the Game -by David Pogue/ from Pogue's Posts/ Business Day Technology/ The New York Times/pogue.blogs.nytimes.com


Richard


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## Beefnot (Jan 10, 2013)

Who is this David Pogue clown?  How dare he?  Timeos2, please articulate for the folks how the Surface Pro is an ill-conceived, abysmal creation of cosmic proportions that changes absolutely nothing.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 10, 2013)

We considered waiting for the Surface Pro, but instead opted to get the iPad now. The $200 price difference was one deciding factor. Another was the concern about battery life of the Surface Pro. A 4-5 hour battery just doesn't cut it.


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## PigsDad (Jan 10, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Who is this David Pogue clown?  How dare he?  Timeos2, please articulate for the folks how the Surface Pro is an ill-conceived, abysmal creation of cosmic proportions that changes absolutely nothing.



:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Thanks for the chuckle.  I'm sure we will hear Timeos pipe in here soon enough. 

Kurt


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## Ken555 (Jan 10, 2013)

Good article. David is usually spot on. But, there are still a lot of unknowns about this new device and only time will show if it's a real success. If so, then kudos to Microsoft for creating a hardware/software combination that works (and while you're at it, get the stock price up now, will ya?).


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## timeos2 (Jan 10, 2013)

Success will be sales. So far - Zero. But its early. We'll look again in a few months and make the real declaration. Needless to say the overall outlook is not good. Hope is good.


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## Passepartout (Jan 10, 2013)

John's slipping. Took over 1 1/2 hrs to make his predictable comment. 

Surface pro looks nice. Though after playing with Stepson's Surface RT that was just a day or 2 old, I won't be trooping down to my (nonexistent) MS store to bring one home. I was seriously put-off that just a minuscule amount of dust kept the keyboard/cover from getting a good enough connection to perform flawlessly. This on a unit less than a week old. How will it work after being plugged/unplugged, knocked around, subjected to normal dirt and food scraps on a desk? I don't want to be the person to find out.

Time will tell how this all works out. MS didn't even put a booth at CES this year. That's gotta say something.

Jim


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## pwrshift (Jan 10, 2013)

Apple hasn't been in the CES as an exhibitor since 1992...so I'm not surprised Microsoft wasn't there.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/10/3862034/the-apple-economy-of-ces


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## pgnewarkboy (Jan 11, 2013)

As reported,  DOD just bought over 600 million dollars in 8  licenses.  The surface pro could be a big attraction for DoD and DoD contractors if it is as good as described in the review.  Marketing to that group should be relatively easy.  Microsoft is doing a spectacularly horrible job, however, of marketing to the average person.


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## theo (Jan 11, 2013)

*Following the money...*



pgnewarkboy said:


> As reported,  *DOD just bought over 600 million dollars in 8  licenses*.  The surface pro could be a big attraction for DoD and DoD contractors if it is as good as described in the review.  Marketing to that group should be relatively easy.  Microsoft is doing a spectacularly horrible job, however, of marketing to the average person.



Personally, I could not care less about Microsoft and /or or its' new tablet (with or without new and wondrous magical features), but it certainly seems to me as a disinterested outsider that $600 million coming in the door from the DoD in a single shot ain't exactly "bad business", regardless of also marketing or appealing to the "average person"...


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## timeos2 (Jan 11, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> John's slipping. Took over 1 1/2 hrs to make his predictable comment.



Nah - the Surface line appears to be another fiasco DOA and not really worth even commenting on. Being late to the party adds to the chances of failure. But the world goes on - you can buy & use the competitors.


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## Ken555 (Jan 11, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> Apple hasn't been in the CES as an exhibitor since 1992...so I'm not surprised Microsoft wasn't there.
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/10/3862034/the-apple-economy-of-ces



Yeah, but MS has had a large presence and given the keynote at CES for a long time.


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## Ken555 (Jan 11, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> I was seriously put-off that just a minuscule amount of dust kept the keyboard/cover from getting a good enough connection to perform flawlessly. This on a unit less than a week old. How will it work after being plugged/unplugged, knocked around, subjected to normal dirt and food scraps on a desk? I don't want to be the person to find out.



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1397810&postcount=7


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## e.bram (Jan 11, 2013)

Can the Surface run all(any) programs developed for the Windows OSes, like any Windows laptop or PC.


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## Passepartout (Jan 11, 2013)

e.bram said:


> Can the Surface run all(any) programs developed for the Windows OSes, like any Windows laptop or PC.



Not the currently available Surface RT. It uses 'apps' available at the MS App Store. I does, however come equipped with a more-or-less fully functional MS Office. 

The as yet unavailable Surface Pro has a full version of Windows 8 and will run all Windows applications.


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## Beefnot (Jan 11, 2013)

I do believe that Microsoft is woefully inept at marketing and branding.  Absolutely abysmal.  If Microsoft collapses, be it quickly or gradually, it won't be from piss-poor product, it will be from piss-poor marketing and branding.


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## e.bram (Jan 11, 2013)

Then the Surface Pro running Windows 8 will be a game changer!!!


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## Beefnot (Jan 11, 2013)

e.bram said:


> Then the Surface Pro running Windows 8 will be a game changer!!!



Well, my guess, if Apple has half a brain, is that we will see a similar product out of Apple soon.  Think the Macbook Air with detachable keyboard.  Then Apple will claim that they have changed the world of computing once again, even though the reality will be that they simply perfected the execution of what Microsoft initiated.


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## e.bram (Jan 11, 2013)

If the new Surface runs Bluetooth it can have detachable Bluetooth  keyboard(even a full size) and mouse as well.


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## Ken555 (Jan 11, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Well, my guess, if Apple has half a brain, is that we will see a similar product out of Apple soon.  Think the Macbook Air with detachable keyboard.  Then Apple will claim that they have changed the world of computing once again, even though the reality will be that they simply perfected the execution of what Microsoft initiated.



:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## Talent312 (Jan 11, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Apple will claim that they have changed the world of computing once again, even though the reality will be that they simply perfected the execution of what Microsoft initiated.



Like MS actually ever initiated anything... 
I'm a PC guy, but I know a little something about MS history.

MS has a long history of taking other folks ideas and re-branding them.
In its infancy, Bill Gates practically stole DOS from Digital Research (DR)
and sold it to IBM as their own, and later, the GUI first used by Apple.

What MS's has done well is hide MS own lack of innovation.
Nonetheless, they've managed to create a fairly wide-moat.
.


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## Beefnot (Jan 11, 2013)

Talent312 said:


> Like MS actually ever initiated anything...
> I'm a PC guy, but I know a little something about MS history.
> 
> MS has a long history of taking other folks ideas and re-branding them.
> ...



So Microsoft didn't innovate with the Surface or touch screen full OS? What was comparable that predates it?


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## persia (Jan 12, 2013)

Hack blogger.


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## timeos2 (Jan 12, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> So Microsoft didn't innovate with the Surface or touch screen full OS? What was comparable that predates it?



WebOS. Elegance vs more spaghetti code on top of a steaming pile of "meatballs", aka Win8.


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## Talent312 (Jan 12, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> So Microsoft didn't innovate with the Surface or touch screen full OS? What was comparable that predates it?



Just about any Android tablet?
Android may not be a full-fledged O/S (although Jelly Bean's not bad).
But did the idea of turning icons into widgets come to MS in a dream?
... or were they just playing catch up? ...


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## Beefnot (Jan 12, 2013)

They had been trying to figure out that to do with the surface since the 90s, and there has never been a full touch screen o/s. The examples you cite are pretty weak. To suggest that MSFT didn't innovate with win8 is a humongous and disingenuous stretch.


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## Talent312 (Jan 13, 2013)

One man's derivation is another man's innovation.

From "How Stuff Works" --
Microsoft first demonstrated Surface at the 2007 All Things Digital (D) conference... Surface was far from the first platform making use of touch-screens. Tablet PCs could already detect a finger or stylus writing directly to the screen. The Surface device was a black tabletop with a 30-inch touch-screen. [sources: Mintz, Fost, Microsoft, All Things Digital]. 

From "MIT Technology Review" -- 
"What changed between 2007 and the present? Well, obviously, the iPad was introduced, ushering in a post-PC era which Microsoft could not help but recognize as an existential threat. Steve Jobs’ brickbat thrown through the window of PC manufacturers has been so compelling to users that it has in every way forced Microsoft’s hand... Indeed, the [architect] of the entire event seemed to [be] not Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, but rather puppetmaster Steve Jobs, whose dominance of this space has forced even Microsoft into the Apple mold."

See: http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428261/the-extremely-humble-origins-of-microsoft-surface/

.


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## Ken555 (Jan 13, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> They had been trying to figure out that to do with the surface since the 90s, and there has never been a full touch screen o/s. The examples you cite are pretty weak. To suggest that MSFT didn't innovate with win8 is a humongous and disingenuous stretch.



It's really difficult to defend Microsoft on this issue. Good luck with that.


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## Beefnot (Jan 13, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> It's really difficult to defend Microsoft on this issue. Good luck with that.



How do you figure? That is like suggesting the ipod or iphone was not innovative then. Neither is anything from Google since all of its products were built on the innovations of others. 

That's patently silly of course. No new product by a major player is completely disconnected from inventions and innovations of others. For my edification then, please present a logically cohesive argument that explains what makes Apple or Google products innovative and not Win8, because I can envision no credibile rationale for that.


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## persia (Jan 13, 2013)

I wouldn't count Microsoft out, they do still have the desktop market in their pocket and it isn't too late to leverage that market into the post personal computer world.  Microsoft is playing the long game, and can certainly afford to lose in the short term.  Microsoft is looking five years out.  Neither Google nor Apple seem to be looking more than this year.  

Apple, you need a touch screen MacBook Air with detachable keyboard.  Now!


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## timeos2 (Jan 13, 2013)

persia said:


> I wouldn't count Microsoft out, they do still have the desktop market in their pocket and it isn't too late to leverage that market into the post personal computer world.  Microsoft is playing the long game, and can certainly afford to lose in the short term.  Microsoft is looking five years out.  Neither Google nor Apple seem to be looking more than this year.
> 
> Apple, you need a touch screen MacBook Air with detachable keyboard.  Now!



Controlling a fast disappearing market of 10 years ago isn't a plus its a noose. They have to carry the legacy and try to adapt to the new model. Few have ever successfully done it and the recent MS history, especially under Ballmer, does not bode well for MS doing it. Time will tell but my bets are on others now being far more successful than MS in the brave new computer world.


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## Beefnot (Jan 13, 2013)

persia said:


> I wouldn't count Microsoft out, they do still have the desktop market in their pocket and it isn't too late to leverage that market into the post personal computer world.  Microsoft is playing the long game, and can certainly afford to lose in the short term.  Microsoft is looking five years out.  Neither Google nor Apple seem to be looking more than this year.
> 
> Apple, you need a touch screen MacBook Air with detachable keyboard.  Now!



When I was in the Apple Store the other day, I was stricken by the Mac OS's lack of touch. I almost found myself hamstrung and frustrated. Just weeks after Win8, a touchless OS already feels archaic. I would call that innovation by MSFT (or derivation according to Talen312). 

The gauntlet has been thrown down, and I would expect that Apple answers the challenge. And because they have historically been the kings of converging,  perfecting and polishing existing technology, I would not be surprised if Apple gets credited with innovating desktop and laptop computing when the Macpad, or whatever they end up calling it, comes out.


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## Transit (Jan 13, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> When I was in the Apple Store the other day, I was stricken by the Mac OS's lack of touch. I almost found myself hamstrung and frustrated. Just weeks after Win8, a touchless OS already feels archaic. I would call that innovation by MSFT (or derivation according to Talen312).
> 
> The gauntlet has been thrown down, and I would expect that Apple answers the challenge. And because they have historically been the kings of converging,  perfecting and polishing existing technology, I would not be surprised if Apple gets credited with innovating desktop and laptop computing when the Macpad, or whatever they end up calling it, comes out.



Touch screens are not covenant to use on a desktop or a laptop .On tablets touch screen are great .I had the hp touchscreen and reaching up to touch the screen was never a first choice and created more work.
Apple's Magic Trackpad brings an incredible touch experience to their desktop .
Try it.


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## Beefnot (Jan 13, 2013)

Transit said:


> Touch screens are not covenant to use on a desktop or a laptop .On tablets touch screen are great .I had the hp touchscreen and reaching up to touch the screen was never a first choice and created more work.
> Apple's Magic Trackpad brings an incredible touch experience to their desktop .
> Try it.



Agreed insofar as we are referring to the sole means of manipulation. But having the option to switch back and forth as desired can create an optimal and efficient experience. When I was in Best Buy playing with it for 30 min or so, it just made sense. I loved it.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 13, 2013)

Corporate America isn't going to move away from Microsoft anytime soon. Not until they see a decent alternative and to be honest tablet computing probably only works in a very small niche corporate environment. I know 90% of the people in my workplace certainly couldn't replicate the productivity the do on a PC on a tablet. It just can't and won't happen. Sure they could upgrade the network to Macintosh systems, but does that type of investment make any sense? Microsoft is entrenched in the enterprise environment. As long as people use it in the workplace, they will likely still continue to use it at home. They will buy the other products (tablets, Chromebook) as toys, but not replace their PCs. Sure some will move to Mac computers, but that is still a small market.


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## Passepartout (Jan 13, 2013)

e.bram said:


> Then the Surface Pro running Windows 8 will be a game changer!!!



I can't believe I am saying I agree with e.bram. You saw it here first. 

Jim


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## persia (Jan 13, 2013)

Apple is moving too slowly, yes the magic pad is incredible and I would never use a mouse again, but there are times I just want to touch the screen.  Apple is suppose to give me choice, give me the choice of when I want to use the trackpad and when I want to use a touch screen.

Windows 8 is an attempt to capture the tablet market.  If you run Windows 8 at work and run a Windows 8 app, that same app can be recompiled for Windows RT with no effort whatsoever.  If all your apps are Windows 8 then it doesn't matter whether you have an intel or arm device, they just work.

Windows 8 will be slow on the uptake, that's expected, but Microsoft has a nice pile of cash, they can afford to be patient.  I don't like Microsoft, but to put them in the grave now is foolish.  They could afford to mess with the desktop because there's no battle for the desktop.  Windows 8 is a dogs breakfast of an OS, but it is exactly what Microsoft needs to do.


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## pwrshift (Jan 13, 2013)

Those that bought Apple stock 3 years ago are leaving their darling now.  The competition in phones and tablets is growing fast.  

http://www.optionshouse.com/blog/di...-leaving-apple-behind-should-you-do-the-same/

Oddly, of the tech stocks, Microsoft has been one of the most stable stocks from the recession to date with increasing annual dividends and stock repurchases.  I'm not a fan, but I wouldn't bet against them.

Brian


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## JudyS (Jan 13, 2013)

I've clearly been timesharing for too long, because when I saw this in the list of new TUG posts, I initially read it as "Marriott's Surface Pro Tablet Changes the Game."


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

JudyS said:


> I've clear been timesharing for too long, because when I saw this in the list of new TUG posts, I initially read it as "Marriott's Surface Pro Tablet Changes the Game."



A Marriott-branded tablet? Now that's innovation!


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## pgnewarkboy (Jan 14, 2013)

If you want to run or need to run one of the millions of windows programs the pro is the only way to go if you want a tablet.  As a hobbyist it would be attractive to run adobe photoshop  programs on a tablet.  Since the cloud is os neutral,  it would be great to take a photo, edit on Adobe, upload to cloud, and view or print on any number of device choices.  IMO the millions of mature programs available on the pro is a tremendous strength.


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2013)

Much of what is said about running Windows stuff on a tablet is true but ignores the basic fact that that model is dead. It still represents the thick, hardware and memory intensive, large storage model that has been quickly evolving into a thin client, limited hardware, small footprint and mostly web based model. It is Google more than any other right now that has managed to sell that long desired (it dates back to Oracles attempts in the early 90's and even before) goal but before the near saturation of easy web access just wasn't viable. Now a Chrome book - which loads it's OS fresh in seconds at every startup and has virtually nothing stored locally - is not only achievable but desirable for better security, no virus/malware and extremely attractive pricing. Smartphones too. The Windows phone has been a dud because it tries to bring the huge Windows experience to the relatively tiny screen & turn it into a touch system it was never designed to be - result, a bigger mess than ever rather than the elegance of a system designed from scratch to be what users want today.

There is no doubt that legacy uses such as the heavy duty computing many businesses need will remain for many years on Windows desktops. But they don't need Win8, or touch or anything else. What they have now will serve them until they too become replaceable by the OS of the future. Remember green screens, DOS, mini's & mainframes all survived in the heyday of the PC but no one thought they were leading edge or tended to write anything beyond the bare necessities for use on them. That s whee the MS/Intel/PC world is now finding itself. And like those other dinosaurs those vested in the old ways put up a huge cry that it will "never die" even as it quickly looses all relevance in the growing markets of the day. 

Real innovation never stops and Windows as a computing model is fast becoming the buggy whip in a world of supercars. Move on or be passed up by a fast moving object blowing past your mirrors.


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## pwrshift (Jan 14, 2013)

Apple dips below $500 in pre-market.  Cramer says teens are saying Apple's done.  Anyone buying AAPL?


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> The Windows phone has been a dud because it tries to bring the huge Windows experience to the relatively tiny screen & turn it into a touch system it was never designed to be - result, a bigger mess than ever rather than the elegance of a system designed from scratch to be what users want today.



When it comes to MSFT, you are so blind with hatred that you say things that are decidedly absurd or archaic. Windows phone has not taken off, true, but your arguments are for Windows Mobile. Windows Phone was a ground up rebuild designed for touch.  Other than perhaps Apple or Google fanatics, no one else is saying that it is mess. It is very elegant in concept and execution. If you want to be taken seriously, keep your wild-eyed criticisms grounded in reality.



timeos2 said:


> There is no doubt that legacy uses such as the heavy duty computing many businesses need will remain for many years on Windows desktops. But they don't need Win8, or touch or anything else. What they have now will serve them until they too become replaceable by the OS of the future.



So we heard it here first, the OS of the future will never include touch.



timeos2 said:


> Remember green screens, DOS, mini's & mainframes all survived in the heyday of the PC but no one thought they were leading edge or tended to write anything beyond the bare necessities for use on them. That s whee the MS/Intel/PC world is now finding itself. And like those other dinosaurs those vested in the old ways put up a huge cry that it will "never die" even as it quickly looses all relevance in the growing markets of the day.



Interesting that the OS of the future back then was provided by Microsoft.



timeos2 said:


> RReal innovation never stops and Windows as a computing model is fast becoming the buggy whip in a world of supercars. Move on or be passed up by a fast moving object blowing past your mirrors.



As I have asked before, if you are suggesting that Win8 is in no way innovation, please elaborate vis a vis Apple and Google. And don't use market share arguments, unless you can rationalize your beloved WebOS in the same breath. And provide some substance, rather than that tired and empty yaddayadda.


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2013)

None so blind as those that cannot see. 

All too often those vested in the present fail to recognize the change all around them. Keep repeating the same old lines, eventually reality will force you to change even if it's kicking and screaming.  

(Hey, even I gave up OS/2 for NT in the 90's - sometimes you have to realize when your design of choice has failed to win over the masses. Windows had a great, in fact nearly unprecedented, 20 year run for a number of reasons. But it is likely over and no amount of bluster can change the freight train of change it is caught in now.)


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> None so blind as those that cannot see.
> 
> All too often those vested in the present fail to recognize the change all around them. Keep repeating the same old lines, eventually reality will force you to change even if it's kicking and screaming.
> 
> (Hey, even I gave up OS/2 for NT in the 90's - sometimes you have to realize when your design of choice has failed to win over the masses. Windows had a great, in fact nearly unprecedented, 20 year run for a number of reasons. But it is likely over and no amount of bluster can change the freight train of change it is caught in now.)



Same old lines, yep, you said it. :zzz:


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## ace2000 (Jan 14, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Same old lines, yep, you said it. :zzz:


 
Actually, these Microsoft threads are all starting to get old and repetitious...  It'd be nice if we could stick to the original topic, but they always seem to go down the path of the impending doom of Microsoft or how MS has supplied no innovation to computer industry, etc., etc., etc...


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## Blues (Jan 14, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> So Microsoft didn't innovate with the Surface or touch screen full OS? What was comparable that predates it?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers

PenPoint.  DynaPad.  Apple Newton.

There were numerous companies producing tablet computers in the 1980s.  The iPad, Surface, and their ilk are a resurrection of 30 year old technology.

-Bob


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

Blues said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers
> 
> PenPoint.  DynaPad.  Apple Newton.
> 
> ...



That make my point in some ways.  However, it would be far too restrictive and dismissive to conflate innovation with invention.  Innovators are frequently, perhaps almost always, not the inventors of the original technology.


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Actually, these Microsoft threads are all starting to get old and repetitious...  It'd be nice if we could stick to the original topic, but they always seem to go down the path of the impending doom of Microsoft or how MS has supplied no innovation to computer industry, etc., etc., etc...



I hear you.  But just as timeos2 is so predictably Pavlovian when MSFT is mentioned in any thread, so am I when I encounter BS talk.  It is so difficult for me to let yaddayadda go unchallenged.  I'll try harder next time to just let it go.  Key word, try.


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## Ken555 (Jan 14, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> That make my point in some ways.  However, it would be far too restrictive and dismissive to conflate innovation with invention.  Innovators are frequently, perhaps almost always, not the inventors of the original technology.



Perhaps I'm missing something, but what exactly did Microsoft innovate with their tablet? It's just a touch screen portable device that runs existing Windows software (as well as new apps designed for touch). And the only reason Microsoft "innovated" it is due to the overwhelming market acceptance of tablets due to Apple, and subsequently Google and their partners, in educating the market on how great a tablet can be. 

I've written a review in another thread about my experience with the Surface, and I'm intending on testing it again once the new version is released. But, I really don't see anything exciting about it. If you live in a Microsoft centric world and have an investment in that space, then I can see the appeal of the device. It will sell, I believe, amongst corporate buyers (we have clients asking about it, but many who ask are also quite pleased with their iPads...) though I'm not convinced by any means it will be a runaway success. Of course, Microsoft has the deep pockets to market it forever if they want.


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## pwrshift (Jan 14, 2013)

Add *Palm* to that list.  I have a Palm IIIc that I got as a gift from Marriott many many years ago...it's touch screen wasn't as 'touchy' as today's screens but I used it many times a day for appointments, notes, etc.  I've been recording things to it that I started (maybe 1999?) that I continue doing so for reference and to continue the records.  It would take hours to transfer the data into my newer computers, so I just continue it with the Palm. It still works today...a very well made device.

Alas...where is Palm today.  

Brian



Blues said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers
> 
> PenPoint. DynaPad. Apple Newton.
> 
> ...


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> Add *Palm* to that list.  I have a Palm IIIc that I got as a gift from Marriott many many years ago...it's touch screen wasn't as 'touchy' as today's screens but I used it many times a day for appointments, notes, etc.  I've been recording things to it that I started (maybe 1999?) that I continue doing so for reference and to continue the records.  It would take hours to transfer the data into my newer computers, so I just continue it with the Palm. It still works today...a very well made device.
> 
> Alas...where is Palm today.
> 
> Brian



Palm was so far ahead of the curve it's scary. My Palm(s) had every feature and function that the "innovative" iPhone had (they coppied it all and didn't get it half as well) along with both touch screen & a hardware (and useable) keyboard - 3+ YEARS before the iPhone. But users concentrated on the phone part & tended to ignore the Web, total calendar/phone contact / address integration that no one has yet to equal. But Apple made the splash & got the "innovation" credit. S Jobs even admitted that he stole most of the ideas from Palm in an interview. 

HP ran it into the ground (in just over a year - shows how fast these things can change) but it was underfunded for awhile before that or they could have been today's Apple.


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## Beefnot (Jan 14, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but what exactly did Microsoft innovate with their tablet? It's just a touch screen portable device that runs existing Windows software (as well as new apps designed for touch). And the only reason Microsoft "innovated" it is due to the overwhelming market acceptance of tablets due to Apple, and subsequently Google and their partners, in educating the market on how great a tablet can be.



I'm going to [try to] turn over a new leaf and not continue to debate points that have already been clearly laid out. If folks can't keep up, I'll just let it go.  Breathe, exhale.



timeos2 said:


> Palm was so far ahead of the curve it's scary. My Palm(s) had every feature and function that the "innovative" iPhone had (they coppied it all and didn't get it half as well) along with both touch screen & a hardware (and useable) keyboard - 3+ YEARS before the iPhone. But users concentrated on the phone part & tended to ignore the Web, total calendar/phone contact / address integration that no one has yet to equal. But Apple made the splash & got the "innovation" credit. S Jobs even admitted that he stole most of the ideas from Palm in an interview.
> 
> HP ran it into the ground (in just over a year - shows how fast these things can change) but it was underfunded for awhile before that or they could have been today's Apple.



Agreed.  Although I preferred Windows Mobile for several reasons, I always gave reverence for Palm's innovation (wait, there I go again, I mean derivation, derivation).  HP completely bungled Palm.  The incompetence or apathy or both in handling their $1B acquisition of Palm was astounding.


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## ace2000 (Jan 14, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> HP completely bungled Palm. The incompetence or apathy or both in handling their $1B acquisition of Palm was astounding.


 
Palm was dead long before HP.  It's a fast moving market.  Blackberry is another example.


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## ricoba (Jan 14, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> HP ran it into the ground (in just over a year - shows how fast these things can change) but it was underfunded for awhile before that or they could have been today's Apple.



We too liked Palm devices and phones, but I think Palm killed itself long before HP did.


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## ondeadlin (Jan 16, 2013)

Turns out Surface Pro had better change the game, because the current Surface with RT is tanking:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/tabl...eem-slack-says-ubs-spelling-silence-rt-itbwcw


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## timeos2 (Jan 16, 2013)

The evidence and the articles just keep coming. Those that aren't sensing the change and insist on backing the fast swooning Wintel model will soon be woefully behind the times.


----------



## ace2000 (Jan 16, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> The evidence and the articles just keep coming. Those that aren't sensing the change and insist on backing the fast swooning Wintel model will soon be woefully behind the times.


 
Since you never fail to hesitate to announce the end of Microsoft, would it be possible for you to provide some real predictions?  When does this impending doom of Microsoft occur?  1 year, 3 years, 5 years?


----------



## timeos2 (Jan 16, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Since you never fail to hesitate to announce the end of Microsoft, would it be possible for you to provide some real predictions?  When does this impending doom of Microsoft occur?  1 year, 3 years, 5 years?



I am not predicting the end of MS - heck, Wordperfect & Novell are still around among some other survivors of the past. What is happening is a move away from them as the standard or the trendsetters and a change into a life of a likely profitable (but nothing like the past) company supporting legacy applications (that will linger for a decade and beyond as the diehards refuse to move off or can't afford to) that holds no real power anymore. That might as well be death to Ballmer and his minions as they have always been about control (and money).  

If the rate of change continues at it's current pace - and the big club of Win8 didn't slow it a bit and may have spurred it on - in 3-5 years some will be asking if "you remember when Microsoft was around".  Golden days ahead!


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## Talent312 (Jan 16, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> I am not predicting the end of MS - heck, Wordperfect & Novell are still around among some other survivors of the past.



IOW, there's a difference between being dead and being irrelevant.
Remaining relevant in the world of mobile computing is no easy thing.
Miss the boat, and crowd on the other shore isn't gonn'a wait for you.

Being identified as a "legacy" is not an appelation of which to be proud.

.


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 29, 2013)

*Microsoft Surface Pro software devours disk space*

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57566423-75/microsoft-surface-pro-software-devours-disk-space/



> The 64GB version of the upcoming Surface Pro -- due for release February 9 -- will offer only 23GB of available storage space for user files, according to a statement CNET received from Microsoft.
> "The 128GB version of Surface Pro has 83GB of free storage out of the box. The 64GB version of Surface Pro has 23GB of free storage out of the box," a Microsoft representative said in a statement.


----------



## timeos2 (Jan 30, 2013)

And so a great legacy of bloated OS continues from the backward looking folks in Redmond. 






An inside view of Windows construction. Pile on boys!


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 30, 2013)

*Why Microsoft could gain market share in post-PC world*

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/01/30/microsoft-pc-market-share/1878107/



> The Pro doesn't compare favorably to other tablets on battery life, and its price/performance is not great for a PC. But these comparisons miss the point. *Microsoft has never made the best products, just the ones that imposed the fewest restrictions.* By combining performance with iPad-like portability, the company has produced what might be the most versatile digital device currently on the market. You can do practically anything with it -- that is, until its battery dies.


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 30, 2013)

*It's Time For Windows Tablet Manufacturers To Advertise Usable Storage Space*

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ufacturers-to-advertise-usable-storage-space/



> When Microsoft‘s Surface Pro releases on February 9th, users are in for a nasty surprise: A Microsoft spokesperson confirmed to The Verge that their 64GB version will have a paltry 23GB of user storage space. For those doing the math, that’s 41 bloated gigabytes of reserved space for a recovery partition, the Windows 8 operating system, and pre-installed software. The Surface Pro isn’t the first offender, but it is the catalyst for a much needed shift in advertising practices.


----------



## ondeadlin (Feb 1, 2013)

> "There is no question that Microsoft is in this tablet race to compete for the long haul," said Ryan Reith, analyst and program manager of IDC's mobile device tracking, in a statement. "However, devices based upon its new Windows 8 and Windows RT operating systems failed to gain much ground during their launch quarter, and reaction to the company's Surface with Windows RT tablet was muted at best."



Weak sales continue.

Oh, and I think some of us here on TUG made this observation months ago only to very aggressively dismissed by a resident MS employee.  Nice to see the professional analysts and sales results pretty much agree.



> Both Mainelli and Reith also pointed to the Surface RT's price point as a flaw in Microsoft's launch-quarter strategy. The Surface RT starts at $599 with a keyboard, the accessory Microsoft has aggressively promoted as key to the tablet's usefulness.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 2, 2013)

Negativity rules in the news.  I used to be an avid video game player on consoles.  When the xbox came out,  there was mostly negative press.  It would never catch up to sony playstation.  Not enough games.  Not good enough to compete.  Too late to the game.  Endless criticism.  XBox 360 is a smashing success for Microsoft.  Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 2, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Negativity rules in the news.  I used to be an avid video game player on consoles.  When the xbox came out,  there was mostly negative press.  It would never catch up to sony playstation.  Not enough games.  Not good enough to compete.  Too late to the game.  Endless criticism.  XBox 360 is a smashing success for Microsoft.  Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.



Very true. However, the Xbox 360 was not their first version of a console, and I believe was a significant improvement over the original. I suspect something similar with Surface v2. Most have already agreed that Microsoft isn't going anywhere. Many are simply disappointed in the reviews (and for myself, my personal test of the initial release version) of the new product. This is not to say that any future product will be similarly poor.


----------



## persia (Feb 2, 2013)

Microsoft never gets things right on the first try, it's a well known adage to never install a Microsoft operating system until it reaches SP1....  I fully expect Surface 2 to be much more competitive and Windows 9 to fix the two headed monster that is Windows 8.


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## Elan (Feb 2, 2013)

I couldn't care less if the Surface Pro is successful.  But if I wanted to buy a tablet for work it would absolutely be an x86 Windows tablet.


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## timeos2 (Feb 2, 2013)

persia said:


> Microsoft never gets things right on the first try, it's a well known adage to never install a Microsoft operating system until it reaches SP1....  I fully expect Surface 2 to be much more competitive and Windows 9 to fix the two headed monster that is Windows 8.



Which, while not desirable in anything, is at least correctable at n/c (unless it is a MAJOR screw up like Win Millenum, VISTA or Win8 that require yet another PAID upgrade to fix) in software or an OS but when you've invested $1000+ in hardware that you have to toss out for Version 2 or 3 or whatever it can quickly kill a product line. That has been the history of most MS hardware. 

They were too late to the tablet/phone party and badly misjudged where the market is heading. They still have the now badly dated 80's view of a PC world.


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## Ken555 (Feb 2, 2013)

Elan said:


> I couldn't care less if the Surface Pro is successful.  But if I wanted to buy a tablet for work it would absolutely be an x86 Windows tablet.



Most corporations we consult for demand commercially supportable solutions from established vendors with a commitment to supporting products for the long run. Interestingly, even those clients are not positive about the Surface and are waiting to see if Microsoft changes direction. Of course, those same companies have lots of iOS and Android devices from both corporate purchased and BYOD programs. There are holdouts amongst them for a Windows tablet, but not many. 

Our clients that use a tablet for mail, web, word procesing and more have had very little difficulty adapting to non-Windows tablets. You may have specific additional requirements that demand a Windows tablet, but very few businesses would qualify for that need (as the market has already proven).

I really hope the Surface succeeds. Apple and Google (and their hardware partners) need the competition.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 3, 2013)

I hear that MS is planning to pony up a few billion to help Michael Dell buy-out his own company... so, they're now helping to prop up PC sellers in a dwindling market. MS and PC makers are living in an ever shrinking universe.

_I think there was a "Star Trek" episode about that once._

MS will remain in the game as an also-ran.  They have a wide-enuff moat and enuff hard-core fans to ensure a future that still rakes in cash. But it's sad to see the company that (together with IBM) brought computing to the desktop, faced down the government over antitrust claims, and produced products used in most businesses world-wide, now reduced to hawking a product which has produced little more than a yawn.
.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 3, 2013)

Talent312 said:


> I hear that MS is planning to pony up a few billion to help Michael Dell buy-out his own company... so, they're now helping to prop up PC sellers in a dwindling market. MS and PC makers are living in an ever shrinking universe.



Not just providing money to Dell, it seems, but also dictating limitations on how the business should be run, if this article is accurate:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/microsofts-involvement-in-dell-buyout-proving-complicated/



> MS will remain in the game as an also-ran.  They have a wide-enuff moat and enuff hard-core fans to ensure a future that still rakes in cash. But it's sad to see the company that (together with IBM) brought computing to the desktop, faced down the government over antitrust claims, and produced products used in most businesses world-wide, now reduced to hawking a product which has produced little more than a yawn.
> .



Well put.


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 5, 2013)

Although adoption has been slow, perhaps things are loking promising for Win8...especially when evaluated in relation to the Mac.

http://beta.fool.com/iamgreatness/2...er/23414/?ticker=MSFT&source=eogyholnk0000001


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 5, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Although adoption has been slow, perhaps things are loking promising for Win8...especially when evaluated in relation to the Mac.
> 
> http://beta.fool.com/iamgreatness/2...er/23414/?ticker=MSFT&source=eogyholnk0000001



Yes, if you don't believe the reduction in Mac sales was due to supply constraints. I know from personal experience just last week that my office spent over two hours sourcing a new iMac for a client, who wanted the latest version and needed it this week, as Apple could only estimate a "2-3 week" delivery timetable for a new order (we found one at a local Apple Store, though they only had a couple left in inventory of this model). It's been this way for a while now.

And, this article doesn't mention that buyers can still buy new Windows systems with Win 7, which all of our clients are opting to do. Win 8 doesn't even play a factor in their purchase decision.


----------



## Blues (Feb 5, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> And, this article doesn't mention that buyers can still buy new Windows systems with Win 7, which all of our clients are opting to do. Win 8 doesn't even play a factor in their purchase decision.



Yes, my company has sent out a notice to all employees that, due to support ending for XP in April 2014, all PCs *must* be upgraded before that time to -- wait for it -- Windows 7.  I know that I breathed a sigh of relief at that.  I can deal with Win7, but don't wanna think about being forced to upgrade to Win8.

-Bob


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 6, 2013)

Blues said:


> Yes, my company has sent out a notice to all employees that, due to support ending for XP in April 2014, all PCs *must* be upgraded before that time to -- wait for it -- Windows 7.  I know that I breathed a sigh of relief at that.  I can deal with Win7, but don't wanna think about being forced to upgrade to Win8.
> 
> -Bob



I upgraded to 8 and it was a breeze.  No problems.  I am now used to the 8 start screen and prefer it to the traditional desktop.  The traditional desktop is a swipe of the fingers away at all times but I don't use it.  The start screen appears almost instantaneously compared to 7.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> And, this article doesn't mention that buyers can still buy new Windows systems with Win 7, which all of our clients are opting to do. Win 8 doesn't even play a factor in their purchase decision.


 
You're saying the exact same thing they always say everytime a new Windows version comes out.  Give it a year, and I guarantee you'll be speaking a different tune.


----------



## Elan (Feb 6, 2013)

No properly run business is going to opt for newly released hardware or software.  The risk associated with failure is way too high.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Elan said:


> No properly run business is going to opt for newly released hardware or software. The risk associated with failure is way too high.


 
Exactly.  I don't know where these individuals work or who their customers are, but no decent-sized IT department is going to throw out a new release right after it first comes out.  Since Windows 8 was a significant upgrade, the process of learning and working out the bugs will take even longer than some of the previous releases.  I think there are a few on here that have taken advantage of this window of opportunity to trash Microsoft.  

Regardless, the real answer on Windows 8 will be in about 6 months.  I'd advise everyone to wait until then.  And yes, Windows 8/Surface is innovative, and yes, Windows 8/Surface will be a success.


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 6, 2013)

At the large Fortune 100 company where I work, we are still primarily on XP, with the plan for full adoption to Windows 7 by 2016.


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## Elan (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Exactly.  I don't know where these individuals work or who their customers are, but no decent-sized IT department is going to throw out a new release right after it first comes out.  Since Windows 8 was a significant upgrade, the process of learning and working out the bugs will take even longer than some of the previous releases.  I think there are a few on here that have taken advantage of this window of opportunity to trash Microsoft.
> 
> Regardless, the real answer on Windows 8 will be in about 6 months.  I'd advise everyone to wait until then.  And yes, Windows 8/Surface is innovative, and yes, Windows 8/Surface will be a success.



  Yep.  

  As I've said numerous times, I couldn't care less whether Win8 or the Surface Pro are successful.  But to claim they're failures because every corporation in America isn't out buying in droves is nothing short of ignorant, to be blunt.  That's just not how corporate America works.  Sure the 50 employee local mom and pop shop _might_ deploy them soon after release, but that's not the type of business that will ultimately determine the success of the product.


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## timeos2 (Feb 6, 2013)

Just to be clear the Surface Pro does NOT include the free truncated version f MS Office that the RT version has. It DOES require purchase of some version of Office license if you intend to run it.


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## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> You're saying the exact same thing they always say everytime a new Windows version comes out.  Give it a year, and I guarantee you'll be speaking a different tune.



Um...I was stating what happens now, not in a year or two. I absolutely agree with you that Win 8 will be the default standard in the future. We made the switch to 7 after about a year, and then were forced - along with many others - to sell systems with 7 once MS stopped permitting XP on the systems. However, it's relevant to point out that due to customer demand MS reversed their decision last time and allowed manufacturers to sell Win7 for an additional year but deploy WinXP on those boxes, as many many companies refused to run Win7 back then. I don't know if the same will happen with 8, but I don't think so based on what I've read so far. I suspect MS will be able to make faster inroads with the latest OS than they did with 7.

I think I'm somewhat misunderstood on TUG about my opinions on MS. I don't call this a "different tune" - I'm rather a realist about MS. My firm sells lots of these systems to lots of different types of companies and we hear first hand what they want, and have to respond as the reseller. Obviously there are some that embrace tech upgrades sooner than later, but most businesses do not do so. I think we have some of those bleeding edge individuals on TUG, and while that's a good thing overall, we should all be aware that not everyone will switch to the latest OS within the first year or two. As many know - and as Beefnot posted - many companies are still on XP - after all, there has been little practical reason for companies to pay the price to upgrade.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

Elan said:


> Yep.
> 
> As I've said numerous times, I couldn't care less whether Win8 or the Surface Pro are successful.  But to claim they're failures because every corporation in America isn't out buying in droves is nothing short of ignorant, to be blunt.  That's just not how corporate America works.  Sure the 50 employee local mom and pop shop _might_ deploy them soon after release, but that's not the type of business that will ultimately determine the success of the product.



I find it rather amusing that the responses from MS advocates are the same type of spin many Apple advocates used in the 90s when told that Macs had no future.


----------



## Passepartout (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm still perfectly happy with Win7 for my purposes. Maybe when Surface 2.0 or 3.0 made by Dell arrives on the shelves I might be ready to change, but not now.

Heck, I was using MSDOS 3.3 for (what seemed like) a long time after Windows came out. Iirc, Win 3.1 was my first Windows OS. The thing that tipped me over then was that Prodigy quit supporting DOS.

Jim


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## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but what exactly did Microsoft innovate with their tablet? It's just a touch screen portable device that runs existing Windows software (as well as new apps designed for touch). And the only reason Microsoft "innovated" it is due to the overwhelming market acceptance of tablets due to Apple, and subsequently Google and their partners, in educating the market on how great a tablet can be.



Reading back, this is the post that probably gave me the most angst from you.

What did Microsoft innovate with the Surface Pro?  

Again, it's the first tablet that has a real processor, a real OS, and runs real apps.  If you don't see that as a huge deal, then I think you're missing the point.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Again, it's the first tablet that has a real processor, a real OS, and runs real apps.  If you don't see that as a huge deal, then I think you're missing the point.



There are a lot of conflicting opinions on the new device. I read this post yesterday, which has quotes from several other review sites, and suggest you do the same:

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/05...isplay-full-windows-8-compromised-experience/

Not all opinions are positive. I agree that having a "real processor" etc is a change, but the real question is will this be accepted by the market as a solution. 

Here's an excerpt from the post:



> - "There's something really weird about running Windows on a tablet, though. I never think about getting a virus on my iPad, or making sure to comply with constant system updates."
> - The Surface Pro comes with a Wacom-made pressure-sensitive and capacitive stylus that attaches to the device and is a "useful companion to the device."
> - "It's too big, too fat, and too reliant on its power cable to be a competitive tablet, and it's too immutable to do everything a laptop needs to do."


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 6, 2013)

> - "There's something really weird about running Windows on a tablet, though. I never think about getting a virus on my iPad, or making sure to comply with constant system updates."
> - The Surface Pro comes with a Wacom-made pressure-sensitive and capacitive stylus that attaches to the device and is a "useful companion to the device."
> - "It's too big, too fat, and too reliant on its power cable to be a competitive tablet, and it's too immutable to do everything a laptop needs to do."



Criticisms like this could be made for most first versions of category-defining devices.  In 3-5 years, will we look back and say that Win 8 and Surface was the point when mobile computing once again changed?  I think so.  That revelation might even come sooner if Apple perfects and releases a "Macpad" detachable screen Macbook air type of laptop, and/or a touch screen desktop OS.


----------



## timeos2 (Feb 6, 2013)

The biggest negatives being that hardware means incredibly poor battery life - one of the big draws to a tablet to begin with lost - and adds the bloat (read need for massive memory & storage space) the lack of which is another reason tablets are popular.  When you take those benefits away, make the tablet cost as much or more than a laptop and add the curse of Win8 the mixture may be toxic. 

It isn't even out yet and already signs aren't good. It's trying to carry the old school approach to the new world and that seldom works except for those that refuse to change until forced.  Hardly a big market. They tend to simply stay where they are (WinXP or 7) and don't buy anything new. Meanwhile the world moves on and they finally buy in 5-10 years later.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Again, it's the first tablet that has a real processor, a real OS, and runs real apps.  If you don't see that as a huge deal, then I think you're missing the point.



Again this point is very significant.  If you don't get all the advantages of this, it'll be too hard for me to explain it here.  And remember that Microsoft was first.  I'm sure that causes a lot of heartburn to some around here.

The processor used in the Surface Pro is exactly the same processor used in the Macbook Pro.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Again this point is very significant.  If you don't get all the advantages of this, it'll be too hard for me to explain it here.  And remember that Microsoft was first.  I'm sure that causes a lot of heartburn to some around here.
> 
> The processor used in the Surface Pro is exactly the same processor used in the Macbook Pro.



I get it. Really. And I don't care one iota who was first - I'm all about the best solution for the task.

At the moment, my opinion on the Surface Pro is that it may be an excellent option for a "power traveler" who really wants a flexible, lightweight, and reasonably powerful laptop. It will work great on airplanes as well as offer full use of applications for more intensive work when needed. If this fits your needs, then I completely understand why you are in favor of it. Unfortunately, I don't think this fits the majority of tablet users. I may be wrong!


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> I get it. Really. And I don't care one iota who was first - I'm all about the best solution for the task.
> 
> At the moment, my opinion on the Surface Pro is that it may be an excellent option for a "power traveler" who really wants a flexible, lightweight, and reasonably powerful laptop. It will work great on airplanes as well as offer full use of applications for more intensive work when needed. If this fits your needs, then I completely understand why you are in favor of it. Unfortunately, I don't think this fits the majority of tablet users. I may be wrong!



Many won't though.  Think about it from a sys admin perspective - what do you want logging into your company network?  Surface Pro, which can incorporate all the security and policies of Windows networking?  Or one of these other tablets?  

In the real world workplace, this model is a killer.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Many won't though.  Think about it from a sys admin perspective - what do you want logging into your company network?  Surface Pro, which can incorporate all the security and policies of Windows networking?  Or one of these other tablets?
> 
> In the real world workplace, this model is a killer.



There certainly will be a number of companies that embrace this due to the inherent security benefits. However, for a long time now we've worked in a heterogeneous environment with multiple operating systems. Security needed to adapt, and most companies have done so. Your argument would have been very applicable about 10 years ago, but these days every company has iOS and Android devices. Whether or not they have full access is another question altogether - but iOS and Macs, for example, have been able to connect to Exchange natively for a long, long time (including using Microsoft's own software, among other options). There are other solutions for authentication processes that support multiple OS's - which is definitely the way of the future (and the present). 

I think what you also might consider is the management issue. Most large companies (and providers such as my firm) offer services to remotely manage the company computer assets, from computers to printers to wireless access points, etc. Not all solutions support all devices. Asset management reporting, user tracking, processor utilization, software licenses, hard drive storage utilization, and more are typically included with these solutions - along with built in remote control for help desk support etc. Since the Surface Pro runs Win8, I suspect that any of these solutions that support Win8 will work with it out of the box - unlike the iPad...which takes us to mobile device management services (another, related, beast of a task for any large company to solve). 

Anyway, I definitely agree that for Windows only corporations the Surface Pro is an appealing device - but this isn't news. Choosing a Microsoft solution for the last ~25 years has always been the safe move for an organization. It also provides job security for their IT Department...


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Criticisms like this could be made for most first versions of category-defining devices.  In 3-5 years, will we look back and say that Win 8 and Surface was the point when mobile computing once again changed?  I think so.  That revelation might even come sooner if Apple perfects and releases a "Macpad" detachable screen Macbook air type of laptop, and/or a touch screen desktop OS.



I really hope you're right! I'm not convinced it's going to happen. But I don't think there's any question there will be more choices in future, which will benefit everyone. Apple's been rumored to have played with this type of solution for a long time, but rumors don't count. I really don't care who was first, as I just posted earlier. If Microsoft can push the industry further, then great! I don't care where the evolution occurs as long as we all benefit. But, mobile computing changed dramatically with the release of the first iPhone, then the first iPad. And this isn't all that long ago. We're still adapting to a world with these types of portable devices, and I suspect it's too early to make any definitive statement on what mobile computing will look like in five or ten years from now.

Anyway, here's the full article, since there are a number of valid points to consider.



> Here is a collection of some of the early reviews:
> 
> The Verge
> 
> ...


----------



## Elan (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> I get it. Really. And I don't care one iota who was first - I'm all about the best solution for the task.
> 
> At the moment, my opinion on the Surface Pro is that it may be an excellent option for a "power traveler" who really wants a flexible, lightweight, and reasonably powerful laptop. It will work great on airplanes as well as offer full use of applications for more intensive work when needed. If this fits your needs, then I completely understand why you are in favor of it. Unfortunately, I don't think this fits the majority of tablet users. I may be wrong!



  I think some of the difference of opinion here is where we're each focusing our comparisons.  I don't compare using the Surface Pro to using other tablets.  I compare the Surface Pro more with an ultrabook, because it's uniqueness lies in it's ability to run Windows applications.  If you don't need that capability, you'd be an idiot to buy the Pro, IMO.  If you do want that, there aren't a lot of options in tablet form.  

  Any $79 Android tablet will surf the net, read email and play Angry Birds, so I certainly don't think the Pro is targeting that market.


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 6, 2013)

*Even Bill Gates Refuses Upgrade to Windows 8!*

Oh the shame of it all...

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/01/07/bill-gates-refuses-upgrade-windows-8/



> Even as Microsoft crows about the millions of consumers adopting its tablet-friendly Windows 8 operating system, reports have emerged that Bill Gates - the software giant's founder and largest shareholder - is not among them.
> 
> In an interview with French technology magazine Micro Hebdo, America's richest man says Windows 8 is an excellent operating system, but it's just not for him.
> 
> ...





> "Yeah, the IT guys over at Microsoft keep sending me free copies of Windows 8 for my ultrabook. But honestly I don't see the point. I'd lose my start menu and have to keep switching between the interfaces."





> "I encourage everyone looking for a new tablet or a touch-enabled notebook to upgrade to Windows 8. But if you're already on Windows 7, I would wait until Windows 9 to upgrade, by which time some of these kinks will have been worked out."


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

Elan said:


> I think some of the difference of opinion here is where we're each focusing our comparisons.  I don't compare using the Surface Pro to using other tablets.  I compare the Surface Pro more with an ultrabook, because it's uniqueness lies in it's ability to run Windows applications.  If you don't need that capability, you'd be an idiot to buy the Pro, IMO.  If you do want that, there aren't a lot of options in tablet form.
> 
> Any $79 Android tablet will surf the net, read email and play Angry Birds, so I certainly don't think the Pro is targeting that market.



Well put. And yes, I think many of us have different perspectives on how to approach use of this product. But, when I talk with contacts at Microsoft it's clear they want to eat away at the iPad market share. As an ultralight ultrabook - for lack of a better description - the Surface Pro looks excellent. Different products for different purposes. If so, then how is this markedly different than a lightweight laptop? Yes, it has a touch screen and yes it's got Win 8. But it's really then just a small laptop sans laptop bulk and not a tablet at all...


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Oh the shame of it all...
> 
> http://dailycurrant.com/2013/01/07/bill-gates-refuses-upgrade-windows-8/


 
Bringing up Windows 8 on the desktop is a whole new can of worms in this discussion.  I enjoyed reading that... very interesting.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> But it's really then just a small laptop sans laptop bulk and not a tablet at all...


 
Except that functionally, it does all things you can do on a tablet.


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Bringing up Windows 8 on the desktop is a whole new can of worms in this discussion.  I enjoyed reading that... very interesting.



Well, hopefully not that interesting....

http://dailycurrant.com/about/



> The Daily Currant is an English language online satirical newspaper that covers global politics, business, technology, entertainment, science, health and media. It is accessible from over 190 countries worldwide - now including South Sudan.
> 
> Our mission is to ridicule the timid ignorance which obstructs our progress, and promote intelligence - which presses forward.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Except that functionally, it does all things you can do on a tablet.



I'm not too sure about that. Review all the previous posts to find out why.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 6, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Well, hopefully not that interesting....
> 
> http://dailycurrant.com/about/



Was waiting for you to post this caveat on their "stories"


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Well, hopefully not that interesting....
> 
> http://dailycurrant.com/about/


 
Knew it the whole time!


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> I'm not too sure about that. Review all the previous posts to find out why.


 
Sure thing, let me get back to you on that.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 6, 2013)

A very positive review of the Surface pro in the ny times 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/t...ke-a-tablet-and-a-pc.html?ref=technology&_r=0


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 6, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> A very positive review of the Surface pro in the ny times
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/t...ke-a-tablet-and-a-pc.html?ref=technology&_r=0




I love David Pogue's reviews.


Thanks for posting.


Richard


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 7, 2013)

The good press is definitely out there for the Surface Pro. Here's a quite positive review:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/02/05/microsoft-surface-pro-review/



> I think it’s a great laptop and it is the standard-bearer for the Windows 8 charge. It is a flagship product that will show other manufacturers just what they’ve been doing wrong all these years by dumping Windows on weak hardware and calling it the latest and greatest. This is the latest and greatest and it was built on Microsoft’s terms with Microsoft money.
> 
> Will it sell well? I doubt it. The price is too high for the lookie-loos and the pain of the Surface RT will make die-hards a bit apprehensive about spending more money on the platform. However, you can apparently trade in your RT model for a Pro and that is definitely the way to go if you’re considering the upgrade.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 8, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Here's a quite positive review:
> 
> Will it sell well? I doubt it.  The price is too high for the lookie-loos and the pain of the Surface RT will make die-hards a bit apprehensive about spending more money on the platform.



Gee, with positive reviews like that, who needs negative reviews?  

Here's an interesting one...

http://www.zdnet.com/goodbye-surfac...wont-miss-getting-work-done-again-7000011067/


> Summary: I traveled with my Surface RT and iPad this week, but found neither was able to let me do my job as an engineer and I told myself I won't travel and be limited again. Microsoft's Surface Pro looks to be the perfect device for an engineer and mobile tech writer like myself.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 8, 2013)

Another interesting read... 

http://blogs.computerworld.com/tabl...s-tablet-their-next-work-tablet-say-forrester



> A Forrester report says that 200 million information workers would prefer a Windows tablet over any competitor's for their next work tablet.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 8, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> But it's really then just a small laptop sans laptop bulk and not a tablet at all...



_It’s a Tablet. No, It’s a PC. *Surface Pro Is Both.*_

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/t...ke-a-tablet-and-a-pc.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 8, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Gee, with positive reviews like that, who needs negative reviews?



Did you even read the review or just the quote I posted?


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## ace2000 (Feb 8, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Did you even read the review or just the quote I posted?



I skimmed it.  Very thorough.  However, when the author says that it will not sell well, he's basically stating that even though it might be a good product, it's really not worth the price.  I think I've got the gist of the entire article.

I guess the jury is still out on that question, but I feel very confident he's wrong.  What are your thoughts?  Are you ready to commit one way or the other today?  You seem to be taking the middle road so far.  Perhaps even slightly negative.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 8, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> What are your thoughts?  Are you ready to commit one way or the other today?  You seem to be taking the middle road so far.  Perhaps even slightly negative.



I really want to test the Surface Pro for myself, for more than a few minutes. I can't see using it as flexibly as I use an iPad, due to weight, but they just aren't the same product. You, and others, seem to think that it's both a tablet and a laptop, but I don't see it working that way. It may be marketed as such, and many may state it is, but I suspect many may simply want it to be both since they don't want to buy two devices. As I believe you wrote earlier, it may be an example of future products and show the continuing transformation of computers/tablets. If size, weight, storage and usability were the same for both iPads and Surface Pro, then I can definitely see more comparisons between the devices and - assuming the market buys the Surface Pro - no doubt Apple will release something similar (think of a MacBook Air sans keyboard which could run either iOS or Mac OS - or perhaps some hybrid). 

I read a few reviews in the last day that show pent up demand for something like the Surface Pro. It seems lots of corporate buyers want a Microsoft solution, as expected, and so will likely sell much better than the Surface RT. I hope so.

But as for committing either way...I don't see the need. My firm sells both Microsoft and Apple solutions (and Linux), and we support Mac and Win. I've got both. I don't see a reason to compromise when it's not necessary to do so, and given all else is equal I personally prefer to use a Mac (and lately iOS) - it's what I'm comfortable with, and I always tell clients to stick with what they know unless there is a good reason to switch. I don't see that changing due to the Surface Pro.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 8, 2013)

I get it... It's a like a laptop, but more like a tablet.  Half a laptop?

Seriously.
Those who want to use a tablet for actual computing will like it.
Problem is, that's a niche that doesn't seem to be expanding.
The popular use of tablets is for online media, not computing.

Awhile back, I asked if folks thought desktops were going away.
Many replies indicated no, that they still had a place in the home.
Perhaps the better question was: Are laptops going away?

If tablets get serious, then maybe laptops are becomming passe.
.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 8, 2013)

Talent312 said:


> I get it... It's a like a laptop, but more like a tablet.  Half a laptop?
> 
> Seriously.
> Those who want to use a tablet for actual computing will like it.
> ...



My laptop is NOW my desktop computer at home. I travel with my tablet esp for usage on the plane (better battery life and small enough for the tray table), but have a netbook for my usage in the condo (including a wireless mouse). My tablet travels with me during the day - either in my napsack or my pocketbook.

Yes, I have the $69 tablet and the $99 netbook. And together they are lighter than my laptop. As for my desktop - it still runs but is no longer my daily at home machine (which I will NOT replace when it dies). The laptop is my daily machine in my home office. A tablet is in my bedroom.

Guess I could get a internet phone.


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## persia (Feb 9, 2013)

There is pent up demand for the Surface Pro, it's a laptop that can double as a (somewhat bulky) tablet.  People have been trying to turn iPads into laptops for years....


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## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

persia said:


> There is pent up demand for the Surface Pro, it's a laptop that can double as a (somewhat bulky) tablet.  People have been trying to turn iPads into laptops for years....



Early sales look good for the pro. 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/09/microsoft-sells-out-of-128gb-surface-pro-models/


----------



## persia (Feb 10, 2013)

The pro isn't going to take sale away from iOS and Android devices though, it's really a laptop with touch screen.  It's comfortably back in Microsoft's territory.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

persia said:


> The pro isn't going to take sale away from iOS and Android devices though, it's really a laptop with touch screen.  It's comfortably back in Microsoft's territory.



Hysterical.  The Surface weighs less than a pound more than the Ipad, which means it fits the profile of a tablet device.  And then it's a tablet device that allows you to do real work, plus all the things that a tablet can do.  What functionality does the ipad or Android device have that is going to make people buy the Ipad/Android over the Surface now?  Anyone?  

The price is going to be a factor for some, I'll grant that.  But, the ability to run productive applications is going to be well worth it for many.


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## timeos2 (Feb 10, 2013)

No viable tablet has poor horrendous battery life and a sky high price tag. Lets check sales in a month & 3 months before making any declarations of even limited acceptance (forget predicting any success).


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> Nah - the Surface line appears to be another fiasco DOA and not really worth even commenting on. Being late to the party adds to the chances of failure. But the world goes on - you can buy & use the competitors.





timeos2 said:


> Lets check sales in a month & 3 months before making any declarations of even limited acceptance (forget predicting any success).




:hysterical:


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

I prefer the look and feel of my windows 8 desktop to my Android  tablet.  I will buy the Surface RT when the price drops.  It includes word and excel and will sync with my desktop and xbox 360. 

I am reading the RT price will drop after the introduction of the pro.  BTW it has all the apps I need,  and a cover that is a touch keypad and there is also  a usb port.  Some of the Android apps ported to RT are much better than their android version. If I was still working I would get the pro but the RT is a great product for my needs.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

persia said:


> The pro isn't going to take sale away from iOS and Android devices though, it's really a laptop with touch screen.  It's comfortably back in Microsoft's territory.



I think this is dead on correct!

I use my iPad mainly in the bedroom for a couple of hours a day.  So my bedroom iPad usually lasts close to a week on 1 charge.  It's also light and doesn't get hot like a normal computer.  It's great for reading, web surfing, playing games, Facetiming, watching videos, etc.  When I need to do real work I either pull out my laptop or go to my desktop, but sometimes I can accomplish that stuff on my iPad.

The Surface to me looks much more like an ultrabook or laptop rather than a iPad or android tablet and I think that's the category that it will end up potentially replacing.  I don't see the millions and millions of iPad and Android Tablet users replacing those devices for what they use them as for something which is heavier, has poor battery life and gets hot.  People want lighter and smaller (look at how well the iPad mini is doing) with good battery life to fit that niche of their lifestyle.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Hysterical.  What functionality does the ipad or Android device have that is going to make people buy the Ipad/Android over the Surface now?  Anyone?



Smaller, lighter, much better battery life and doesn't get hot while using it.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> Smaller, lighter, much better battery life and doesn't get hot while using it.



Can't run any of the programs their businesses and organizations depend on.  Battery life is really important if you are watching movies.  Not so much if you need to have access to the programs you rely on when you go to a meeting down the hall, street, or another city.


----------



## persia (Feb 10, 2013)

Which is what I said, the Surface Pro is competing against laptops, not the iPad or Android devices.  It makes a great laptop but it also makes a poor tablet.  Microsoft still doesn't get the difference between the two.



pgnewarkboy said:


> Can't run any of the programs their businesses and organizations depend on.  Battery life is really important if you are watching movies.  Not so much if you need to have access to the programs you rely on when you go to a meeting down the hall, street, or another city.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Can't run any of the programs their businesses and organizations depend on.  Battery life is really important if you are watching movies.  Not so much if you need to have access to the programs you rely on when you go to a meeting down the hall, street, or another city.



No argument here, but that's why it's going to fit more in the category of ultra books or notebooks and not the consumer tablet space like iPads and Android tablets.

It may ultimately do well in the business space, but I don't think it will come anywhere near replacing or even competing with iPads or Android tablets in the consumer space.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

persia said:


> Which is what I said, the Surface Pro is competing against laptops, not the iPad or Android devices.  It makes a great laptop but it also makes a poor tablet.  Microsoft still doesn't get the difference between the two.



Obviously they get the difference.  That is why they have RT-which will benefit from the sale of the pro.   I think they get many things.  It is probably why they have billions and billions of dollars.


----------



## Beefnot (Feb 10, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Obviously they get the difference.  That is why they have RT-which will benefit from the sale of the pro.   I think they get many things.  It is probably why they have billions and billions of dollars.



Yeah, but they need to stop marketing everything as Windows something or other. Windows RT, Windows Phone. Enough already. If it ain't Windows 8, call it something else.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Yeah, but they need to stop marketing everything as Windows something or other. Windows RT, Windows Phone. Enough already. If it ain't Windows 8, call it something else.



Agreed. The "RT"  designation is confusing.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Yeah, but they need to stop marketing everything as Windows something or other. Windows RT, Windows Phone. Enough already. If it ain't Windows 8, call it something else.



Yes, but after decades they think the Windows brand helps with sales.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Obviously they get the difference.  That is why they have RT-which will benefit from the sale of the pro.   I think they get many things.  It is probably why they have billions and billions of dollars.



Really? I'm not sure how you went from "they get the difference" to it's "probably why they have billions and billions of dollars". I think you just glossed over all their failures over the years. The reason they have so much money is because of their few very successful products. MS has difficulty producing solutions outside their traditional area of expertise. The Surface Pro may fit since - as many of us seem to acknowledge now - it's more of a laptop than a tablet, and runs the full version of Windows.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> Smaller, lighter, much better battery life and doesn't get hot while using it.



Yes. FWIW, I think weight is really important with a tablet. I recently added a back cover protection for my iPad and it added about ~4oz of weight. Ever since I did that, I really notice the increase when I carry it - and especially when I try using it while holding. The Surface Pro isn't designed to be used while holding - as far as I can tell - and I notice no one seems to have mentioned this yet. I often use my iPad while holding it, but spend more time while it's on a stand or a table. When I travel, I take the iPad along with my laptop. If it did both, I might not and can definitely see the appeal of just one device (though I'm not sure I'd be as productive with a smaller screen and significantly less storage). Until then, every little bit of extra weight makes a difference.


----------



## Mosca (Feb 10, 2013)

It's all about evolving. The problem with the iPad is that its environment doesn't evolve. We get new hardware, but the experience stays the same. Android and RT have evolution potential. The future isn't limited by the current success, like it is with the iPad. 

Written on my iPad, btw. But I didn't buy it, I got it as an incentive through work. If I were buying one I'd probably go Android, because I have an Android phone that I love.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Yes. FWIW, I think weight is really important with a tablet. I recently added a back cover protection for my iPad and it added about ~4oz of weight. Ever since I did that, I really notice the increase when I carry it - and especially when I try using it while holding. The Surface Pro isn't designed to be used while holding - as far as I can tell - and I notice no one seems to have mentioned this yet. I often use my iPad while holding it, but spend more time while it's on a stand or a table. When I travel, I take the iPad along with my laptop. If it did both, I might not and can definitely see the appeal of just one device (though I'm not sure I'd be as productive with a smaller screen and significantly less storage). Until then, every little bit of extra weight makes a difference.



I used to travel with my iPad and MacBook Air, which I run Windows 7 on, for the 5% of stuff I couldn't really do with my iPad.  For the last few trips I've ditched the MacBook Air because I didn't see the point of even carrying that around and I did feel the extra weight.


----------



## Elan (Feb 10, 2013)

Mosca said:


> It's all about evolving. The problem with the iPad is that its environment doesn't evolve. We get new hardware, but the experience stays the same. Android and RT have evolution potential. The future isn't limited by the current success, like it is with the iPad.
> 
> Written on my iPad, btw. But I didn't buy it, I got it as an incentive through work. If I were buying one I'd probably go Android, because I have an Android phone that I love.



  Yes, good point.  The Surface Pro is definitely breaking new ground.  As I said before, if it functions even reasonably well it's a no-brainer choice among tablets for anyone wanting to do real work.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Really? I'm not sure how you went from "they get the difference" to it's "probably why they have billions and billions of dollars". I think you just glossed over all their failures over the years. The reason they have so much money is because of their few very successful products. MS has difficulty producing solutions outside their traditional area of expertise. The Surface Pro may fit since - as many of us seem to acknowledge now - it's more of a laptop than a tablet, and runs the full version of Windows.



Most companies worldwide would like to have Microsoft success to failure ratio.  If you are not failing sometimes that means you are simply not trying to do things.  If, as a business, you remain stagnant you are guaranteeing the death of your company.  A home run hitter strikes out more than the average hitter but the home run is still worth more than a single. BTW,  xbox 360 was outside Microsoft traditional business.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> When I travel, I take the iPad along with my laptop. If it did both, I might not and can definitely see the appeal of just one device (though I'm not sure I'd be as productive with a smaller screen and significantly less storage). Until then, every little bit of extra weight makes a difference.


 
The difference between the weight of the Surface and the iPad is less than one pound.  The Surface weighs less than the MacBook Pro.  Guess people will have to decide whether having a real PC is worth the extra few ounces.  If people wanted to purchase a lightweight tablet then they'd stick to their cell phone.


----------



## ampaholic (Feb 10, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Most companies worldwide would like to have Microsoft success to failure ratio.  If you are not failing sometimes that means you are simply not trying to do things.  If, as a business, you remain stagnant you are guaranteeing the death of your company.  A home run hitter strikes out more than the average hitter but the home run is still worth more than a single.



In 1923, Babe Ruth smashed the record for most home runs in a season. That same year, he also broke the record for highest batting average.

There is a another record he broke that year. In 1923, Babe Ruth struck out more times than any other player in Baseball.

Babe Ruth was not afraid to strike out, in fact while he had 714 home runs lifetime he also had 1,330 career strike outs, 1.86 strickout to each HR ratio.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> The reason they have so much money is because of their few very successful products.



A "few" successful products?  Let's move past the small businesses that run on Apple products and broaden your horizons.

You'll see products like Windows Server, SQL Server, MS Outlook/MS Exchange, and .NET.  Any of which could be split off into multi-billion dollar corporations on their own.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> The difference between the weight of the Surface and the iPad is less than one pound.  The Surface weighs less than the MacBook Pro.  Guess people will have to decide whether having a real PC is worth the extra few ounces.  If people wanted to purchase a lightweight tablet then they'd stick to their cell phone.



I think the most appropriate comparison is to the MacBook Air. Here's a nice comparison, which shows that the Surface Pro is actually heavier than the MacBook Air if you count the keyboard. 

http://www.gizmag.com/macbook-air-vs-microsoft-surface-pro-specs-comparison/26175/


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> A "few" successful products?  Let's move past the small businesses that run on Apple products and broaden your horizons.
> 
> You'll see products like Windows Server, SQL Server, MS Outlook/MS Exchange, and .NET.  Any of which could be split off into multi-billion dollar corporations on their own.



Yup, the back office products are what I was referring to. I should know, I sell them. 

Xbox seems to be among the only product outside of their traditional area of expertise which has been successful (sorry I didn't mention it specifically earlier...tough crowd!). Have there been any others that were successful that didn't require Microsoft life support (a la Zune)?


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

BTW, it seems Microsoft isn't providing an option for cellular network connectivity with the Surface Pro. If its targeting laptop users, I don't see that being an issue (though many of our corporate clients buy Dell laptops with built-in cell cards). If it's targeting other tablets, I see this as a potential issue - definitely a trade off for battery and weight. I've got the cell network connection on my iPad, and I use it every day. It's worth it to me for the convenience - I don't want to tether it or have another device just to connect to the Internet when I don't need to. I would think a lot of Windows buyers would want the same convenience. Of course, I suspect this will be in Surface Pro v2.


----------



## Mosca (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't have cellular connectivity on my iPad. For as infrequently as it is outside a wifi network, cellular would be a waste of money. And anyhow, my phone is a wireless cellular hotspot; connecting through it is as simple as changing networks in settings.


----------



## Elan (Feb 10, 2013)

Mosca said:


> I don't have cellular connectivity on my iPad. For as infrequently as it is outside a wifi network, cellular would be a waste of money. And anyhow, my phone is a wireless cellular hotspot; connecting through it is as simple as changing networks in settings.



  That's the thing.  I ALWAYS have my phone with me, and tethering is trivially easy with an Android phone.  Why pay for another data plan?  

  All that aside, I mostly compare the Surface to an ultrabook.  I can't see where having cellular service would be that handy on an ultrabook.  Once you put in a cellular radio, then the carriers want to get involved, which is reason enough to not do it, IMO.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

Mosca said:


> I don't have cellular connectivity on my iPad. For as infrequently as it is outside a wifi network, cellular would be a waste of money. And anyhow, my phone is a wireless cellular hotspot; connecting through it is as simple as changing networks in settings.



I used to do the same thing, but now that its only an extra $10 to put it on my shared data plan, I just spend the extra $130 and have the LTE version.  I do really like having the convieniance.  The surface not having this just further places it in the ultrabook category IMO.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> The reason they have so much money is because of their few very successful products.


 


ace2000 said:


> You'll see products like Windows Server, SQL Server, MS Outlook/MS Exchange, and .NET. Any of which could be split off into multi-billion dollar corporations on their own.


 


Ken555 said:


> Yup, the back office products are what I was referring to. I should know, I sell them.


 
We know you claim to sell them.  You also claim to sell Apple products.  By your answers here, my guess is your customers are in the small business segment.  I'd say my list of products (along with Xbox, MS Office and Windows) describes more than a few.  You can describe it how you want though.


----------



## timeos2 (Feb 10, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> I used to do the same thing, but now that its only an extra $10 to put it on my shared data plan, I just spend the extra $130 and have the LTE version.  I do really like having the convieniance.  The surface not having this just further places it in the ultrabook category IMO.



Exactly. But remember it's NOT even an Ultrabook because the keyboard cannot be used in your lap. The crazy (and reportedly unreliable) magnetic connector has to be solidly on a flat surface. This thing will appeal to the MS fan boys, the few IS diehards that never want to see anything different (they might have to actually work to learn) and then fall on it's face.  It's a product looking for a need and there isn't one for it.  Old time thinking trying to take on a current face. Never works.  Check sales in 3 months.  (And the many excuses why "Ver 2" will be the GREATEST!)


----------



## Elan (Feb 10, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> We know you claim to sell them.  You also claim to sell Apple products.  By your answers here, my guess is your customers are in the small business segment.  I'd say my list of products (along with Xbox, MS Office and Windows) describes more than a few.  You can describe it how you want though.



  There definitely seems to be a difference in the opinions of those who deal with smaller businesses and those of us who work for larger (Fortune 500) sized corporations.  I don't think our IS department supports Apple or Android anything.  I suspect that, with few exceptions, that is the norm at larger corporations.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Feb 10, 2013)

Elan said:


> I don't think our IS department supports Apple or Android anything.  I suspect that, with few exceptions, that is the norm at larger corporations.



I can think of 2 exceptions - Apple and Google


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> We know you claim to sell them.  You also claim to sell Apple products.  By your answers here, my guess is your customers are in the small business segment.  I'd say my list of products (along with Xbox, MS Office and Windows) describes more than a few.  You can describe it how you want though.



Nope, we don't sell Apple products any longer (and haven't for years) but we do support them. Yes, we mostly support small business (<100 employees) as I've said before. That's a large segment of MS's business, and an important income stream. FWIW, Enterprise requirements for user devices aren't all that different from small business needs these days.

MS successes: Windows, Server apps, Xbox, Office. What else?

As for "claim" I think we all tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt. My posts over the years are fairly consistent in terms of my comments about computing. I came here to relax and read about timeshares - and over the years got pulled into The Lounge...and it seems much of my expertise lends itself to contributing to the threads on computing. When it comes to certain areas, I have some experience. I certainly don't pretend to know everything, and am always open to a contrary opinion. And, I try to treat everyone the way I would want to be treated. I haven't cast any suspicion on your expertise, have I? If so, it was unintended.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

Elan said:


> There definitely seems to be a difference in the opinions of those who deal with smaller businesses and those of us who work for larger (Fortune 500) sized corporations.  I don't think our IS department supports Apple or Android anything.  I suspect that, with few exceptions, that is the norm at larger corporations.



From what I've read, from what colleagues tell me, and from the little support my firm has provided to enterprise organizations they have - in general - been faced with the BYOD issue where lots of employees want to use iOS and Android devices. This started a few years ago and hasn't really changed much since then, other than its now an accepted alternative. Some companies still don't actively support anything other than Windows, but permit Apple and other devices as long as they don't need to make any changes on the server (for example, full Exchange support in iOS).


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 10, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> I used to do the same thing, but now that its only an extra $10 to put it on my shared data plan, I just spend the extra $130 and have the LTE version.  I do really like having the convieniance.  The surface not having this just further places it in the ultrabook category IMO.



Yup. It's great not to have to power up a phone or a mifi just to check email when at a restaurant. I use it every day and it's totally worth it - to me. Of course, lots of people don't want it, and Apple sells lots of the iPads without cell capability.


----------



## ace2000 (Feb 10, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> MS successes: Windows, Server apps, Xbox, Office. What else?


 
Good one.  You put Windows Server, SQL Server, MS Outlook/MS Exchange, and .NET all into "Server apps"???  Why didn't you just throw all of those, along with Windows, and MS Office, into the "Software" category and shrink it down more?


----------



## Mosca (Feb 10, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> I used to do the same thing, but now that its only an extra $10 to put it on my shared data plan, I just spend the extra $130 and have the LTE version.  I do really like having the convieniance.  The surface not having this just further places it in the ultrabook category IMO.



I'm grandfathered into an unlimited data plan. As long as I don't abuse it by downloading music or streaming movies on the tablet via the cellular I'm invisible. I do some light web surfing when I'm in hotels that don't have free wireless (The Borgata and other casinos, Disney World). 

But that's kind of my point, that we all have different needs and uses, and really even different things that delight us about the different devices. To label them better or worse sort of misses that point; each will be better suited for some, and less so for others. I think it's very exciting, actually.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 11, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Good one.  You put Windows Server, SQL Server, MS Outlook/MS Exchange, and .NET all into "Server apps"???  Why didn't you just throw all of those, along with Windows, and MS Office, into the "Software" category and shrink it down more?



But that's my entire point. They excel at office productivity server and desktop applications and the server apps needed for them to function. The exception, in terms of successful products, has been the Xbox. Call it software or be specific - it really doesn't matter how you refer to it - the productivity applications seem to be their strong suit. The Surface Pro fits with that, but it's a first on several levels and may be a challenge. Rather than trying to dismiss my point, how about you respond to it - or suggest another metric to use in terms of defining Microsoft successes? Obviously they've made a lot of money over the years (though my MS stock hasn't done much in a long, long time) but it seems their sweet spot seems to be office productivity solutions. Am I wrong?

Note I'm not including Windows phone, mobile or a bunch of their other initiatives over the years which sounded great but couldn't gain traction. And of course they should have failed products - as another posted all good companies should have failures. 

Regardless, I think we've gotten off track.


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## Ken555 (Feb 11, 2013)

Mosca said:


> I'm grandfathered into an unlimited data plan. As long as I don't abuse it by downloading music or streaming movies on the tablet via the cellular I'm invisible. I do some light web surfing when I'm in hotels that don't have free wireless (The Borgata and other casinos, Disney World).
> 
> But that's kind of my point, that we all have different needs and uses, and really even different things that delight us about the different devices. To label them better or worse sort of misses that point; each will be better suited for some, and less so for others. I think it's very exciting, actually.



You can stream and download music. I've got two of those unlimited plans with AT&T. If you're on LTE then you've got 5GB at full speed until they say they'll throttle the connection. I rarely get anywhere close to that limit, but if I stream a lot I'm sure I would...still, I'm not going to hesitate to do so if I have occasion to watch something and I'm not on wifi.


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## Mosca (Feb 11, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> You can stream and download music. I've got two of those unlimited plans with AT&T. If you're on LTE then you've got 5GB at full speed until they say they'll throttle the connection. I rarely get anywhere close to that limit, but if I stream a lot I'm sure I would...still, I'm not going to hesitate to do so if I have occasion to watch something and I'm not on wifi.



I'm referring to using my phone's hotspot to stream movies to my iPad. I didn't get my hotspot app from my carrier, I got it a different way. If I were to suck down the data I would draw attention to myself. I use less than 1G of cellular data per month, and I only use my hotspot in hotels without free wireless (casinos and Disney), so everyone stays happy.


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## Clemson Fan (Feb 11, 2013)

Mosca said:


> I'm referring to using my phone's hotspot to stream movies to my iPad. I didn't get my hotspot app from my carrier, I got it a different way. If I were to suck down the data I would draw attention to myself. I use less than 1G of cellular data per month, and I only use my hotspot in hotels without free wireless (casinos and Disney), so everyone stays happy.



If you're only using 1GB a month I think you would be better served on another data plan that will give you more data then you're currently using for a lower price, and most of the new data plans have hotspotting included for free.  It doesn't make much sense have a grandfathered unlimited plan when you're afraid to use it so you don't draw attention to yourself and your unsanctioned hotspotting.


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## Mosca (Feb 11, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> If you're only using 1GB a month I think you would be better served on another data plan that will give you more data then you're currently using for a lower price, and most of the new data plans have hotspotting included for free.  It doesn't make much sense have a grandfathered unlimited plan when you're afraid to use it so you don't draw attention to yourself and your unsanctioned hotspotting.



I'm not afraid to; I don't do that stuff anyhow. And we ran the numbers. It's close, but it's about $5 mo cheaper the way it is now. I have 5 phones on the plan, 2 are smart and 3 are feature ( and the users don't care about the features even). If we had more smart phones sharing data it would be cheaper to have them all the same. And there's still no sense in adding another LTE device that rarely leaves the house.


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## persia (Feb 11, 2013)

http://www.zdnet.com/staples-offering-75-discount-on-microsoft-surface-rt-tablets-7000011156/


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## pgnewarkboy (Feb 12, 2013)

persia said:


> http://www.zdnet.com/staples-offering-75-discount-on-microsoft-surface-rt-tablets-7000011156/



Thanks . I may be using this deal. As posted earlier, the RT is very attractive to me in conjunction with my windows 8 desktop.


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## pgnewarkboy (Feb 12, 2013)

*Microsoft has many failures? ie doesn't know what it is doing?*

The argument that Microsoft is a bungling company with failure upon failure that doesn't know what it is doing is, pardon me, one of the silliest arguments on the topic of Microsoft.

Clearly, if you don't like the company or their products that is an opinion anyone is entitled to have.  We can all have our own opinions - not, however, our own facts.

Microsoft IS one of the most successful businesses in the history of the world, in any endeavor - not just software and computers.  That is a fact.  Is Google a failure prone bungling company because Google Plus is not a success?  Or numerous other Google endeavors that have been shelved?  Of course , not.  Same for apple.

One of the notable features of the Microsoft corporate culture is that they keep on trying and don't let an initial "failure" stop them. That is an attribute of a vibrant company that is still on the move.


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## ace2000 (Feb 12, 2013)

Nice review that gives both sides... 

Microsoft Surface Pro: Too Much Tablet?

http://www.informationweek.com/hardware/desktop/microsoft-surface-pro-too-much-tablet/240148261



> _Hopefully we can all agree by now that the Surface Pro won't sell well. So let's move on to why it will be successful. _
> _The reason: enterprise buyers like it._


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## pgnewarkboy (Feb 12, 2013)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Thanks . I may be using this deal. As posted earlier, the RT is very attractive to me in conjunction with my windows 8 desktop.



Just got my Rt with touch cover. It comes with word and excel. Great.


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## ace2000 (Feb 13, 2013)

Consumers upset over Microsoft Surface Pro supply

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/personal/2013/02/13/microsoft-surface-pro-minyanville/1915919/



> Telling people that a product is short in supply and high in demand is probably on page one of the big book of retail tricks


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## ace2000 (Feb 16, 2013)

Surface Pro: My week as engineer and train commuter

http://www.zdnet.com/surface-pro-my-week-as-engineer-and-train-commuter-7000011369/

Summary from article: I bought my Surface Pro last week and my experiences since then have convinced me it is the right device for my needs. Ultra-portability and full Windows in one package is quite attractive.


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## ace2000 (Feb 16, 2013)

I also see this product as a nice device for a student.  Light and thin - compared to a notebook computer, and can run full versions of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.


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## Ken555 (Feb 16, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Surface Pro: My week as engineer and train commuter
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/surface-pro-my-week-as-engineer-and-train-commuter-7000011369/
> 
> Summary from article: I bought my Surface Pro last week and my experiences since then have convinced me it is the right device for my needs. Ultra-portability and full Windows in one package is quite attractive.



Nice review, which fits with the general consensus on who may get the most out of the Surface Pro.


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## pgnewarkboy (Feb 16, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> I also see this product as a nice device for a student.  Light and thin - compared to a notebook computer, and can run full versions of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.



So far nothing that I see lacking in those programs with the RT.


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