# Maint Fees



## gone 4 good (Apr 2, 2011)

Looking to pick up more points, wondering if anyone has a good handle on  resorts with low MF.  I followed a link a while back, but the data was from around 2008.  Are there any cautions in looking to buy points from low MF resorts?  thanks


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 2, 2011)

Last Years information(Read the WHOLE thread!)

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126372

I believe there is an updated chart somewhere on a different forum, the wyndham owners forum...but you have to be a member to see it


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## Goofyhobbie (Apr 2, 2011)

There are auctions showing up on E-Bay that involve relatively recently built Wyndham Resorts with relatively low maintenance fees. But, be careful when considering acquiring such properties simply because the maintenance fee is low. 

More often than not, the reason for the lower maintenance fee is because the Wyndham Sales and Marketing department is in active sales mode and Wyndham is subsidizing the maintenance fees to make the property more palatable to unsuspecting prospects. Given the extremely high price one has to pay through retail many cautious prospects who think about it would balk at paying a maintenance fee that includes adequate reserves in the initial few years that the resort is being offered. 

But, you have to ask yourself, if they are thinking about spending between $15,000 and $60,000 upfront what's a measly annual maintenance fee between their salesperson and themselves. :hysterical:


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## ronparise (Apr 2, 2011)

Under $5/1000 points still seems to be a good rule to follow, just be aware that Wyndham seems to keep the fees at the newer resorts where there is still a lot of unsold inventory on the low side to help the sales effort. Some examples are National harbor and San Francisco.  I understand, from some folks that have been around the system longer than I have, that you can expect a healthy increase around year 6.

The Wyndham Owners Forum has a spread sheet with the fees for every resort over several years..its a year old, but it shows the trends


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## Kozman (Apr 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Under $5/1000 points still seems to be a good rule to follow, just be aware that Wyndham seems to keep the fees at the newer resorts where there is still a lot of unsold inventory on the low side to help the sales effort. Some examples are National harbor and San Francisco.  I understand, from some folks that have been around the system longer than I have, that you can expect a healthy increase around year 6.
> 
> The Wyndham Owners Forum has a spread sheet with the fees for every resort over several years..its a year old, but it shows the trends



I think under $5 per thousand is a thing of the past.


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## brigian (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm no pro, but I think you have to look at each listing on ebay individually. Not sure why but I pay $63/month for 182000 points thats $4.15 per thousand and thats the only reason I bought the one I did. I saw points at the exact same resort 154000 for $70/month which is $5.45 per thousand. Maybe somebody else can explain??


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## sandkastle4966 (Apr 2, 2011)

brigian said:


> I'm no pro, but I think you have to look at each listing on ebay individually. Not sure why but I pay $63/month for 182000 points thats $4.15 per thousand and thats the only reason I bought the one I did. I saw points at the exact same resort 154000 for $70/month which is $5.45 per thousand. Maybe somebody else can explain??



There should be no difference in M/F for the same resort/phase.  Two possibilities here - either Ebay owner is quoting wrong,  or $4.15 is the M/F without the additional program fees, etc. included.

Check your annual statement for all the fees.

At the Wyn Owners Forum,  a M/F spreadsheet is maintained and is accurate.


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## WeLovetoTravel (Apr 2, 2011)

For those that own in Florida, we no longer receive a separate property tax bill. The property taxes are now paid monthly as part of our fees. That could also account for the difference in fees.


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## ronparise (Apr 2, 2011)

There are two explanations why you see different fees at the same resort

1) they are not really the same resort...different phases, different poas. I own 3 different weeks all at New Bern, but one is Fairways, one is Windjammer Village and one is Fairfield Harbour. Each one has a different board, different expenses and different fees

2) The more difficult to see explanation has to do with weeks that have been converted to points.  Before conversion a week is a week and each week (in the same association) is assessed the same fees. When converted however, prime weeks are allocated more points than an off season week. The end result is that the off season converted week owner has a higher fee/1000pt  than the prime season owner.....fees are not assessed per point at these resorts, rather they are assessed per week, and as George Orwell might say..."all weeks are equal, but some weeks are more equal than others"

This is the basis for the continuing discussion in the timeshare world about how the off season owners are subsidizing the prime weeks owners, by paying the same fees for something worth so much less. 

make sense??


here is an example: I own 3 weeks at New Bern. all three are different poas and different seasons and different fees and different points

105000 points....$832 fees
126000 points....$736 fees
154000 points....$750 fees

Makes no sense untill you know the details of the underlying weeks..which POA? and which week of the year I own.


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## brigian (Apr 2, 2011)

I do know that my points were converted from a prime week, so maybe that's why.


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## timeos2 (Apr 2, 2011)

There is no way to assure what future fees will be at any resort. Low fees may reflect an excellent operation saving every dollar OR one that is skimping on reserves and maintenance that will require a large special assessment when neglected work just has to be done.  Basing any purchase on the fees of today - especially very low fees - may be a big mistake in the longer term.


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## Carol C (Apr 2, 2011)

Kozman said:


> I think under $5 per thousand is a thing of the past.



You ain't kidding! And don't even think of buying in Mexico where "labor is cheap". El Cid (ECVC) is affiliated with Wyndham pts & has high maint fees too; so don't believe the myth that you can buy in Mexico and improve your cost to points ratio in Wyn. I'm speaking from experience...and good luck to anyone who can find that under-$5 per 1K needle-in-the-haystack.


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## ronparise (Apr 2, 2011)

$5 is still possible, but who knows what the future might bring

ebay item # 310308381459, 140527617935,  310306471699, 200586800865


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## Kozman (Apr 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> $5 is still possible, but who knows what the future might bring
> 
> ebay item # 310308381459, 140527617935,  310306471699, 200586800865



I wouldn't necessarily believe any maintenance fee listed on e-bay sales.  Many are out of date and fraught with inaccuracies.


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## Free2Roam (Apr 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> $5 is still possible, but who knows what the future might bring
> 
> ebay item # 310308381459, 140527617935,  310306471699, 200586800865



Definitely still possible... 4 of my 7 contracts are still under $5/k (including the Program Fee).  Sedona, Kingsgate and Grand Desert... all straight UDI, not converted weeks.  Sedona and Grand Desert are 8-10 yrs old.. Kingsgate is 10-20 yrs old (but we had special assessments a few years back).


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## ronparise (Apr 3, 2011)

Kozman

Trust then verify

If the fees are not as advertised, dont close.


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## timeos2 (Apr 3, 2011)

FreeIn2010 said:


> Definitely still possible... 4 of my 7 contracts are still under $5/k (including the Program Fee).  Sedona, Kingsgate and Grand Desert... all straight UDI, not converted weeks.  Sedona and Grand Desert are 8-10 yrs old.. Kingsgate is 10-20 yrs old (but we had special assessments a few years back).



We too owned Kingsgate and found it a good deal with low fees until those Special Assessments. While I never did the math - we had to pay so what was the value to that? - I'd guess that with that averaged in we were very close to most other, low end Wyndham resorts in fees.  It again points up the fact that simply having lower than average fees doesn't mean lower costs overall. They just collected them differently and let the resort get pretty rough before getting the money to do the needed work. Hopefully they now have it right but I'm not going to find out. 

We sold ours late last year and now rent all our Wyndham uses for about 2/3 of what we paid to own & find it much easier to get the exact unit/dates/resorts we desire (which we were able to do easily as owners without the bogus VIP for over 15 years) but costs & benefit cuts were getting too deep & too frequent. Without owner control of the resorts & the points system it was obvious that only the Wyndham bottom line mattered. We will not tolerate that no matter how good the overall system may be.


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## massvacationer (Apr 3, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> We sold ours late last year and now rent all our Wyndham uses for about 2/3 of what we paid to own & find it much easier to get the exact unit/dates/resorts we desire (which we were able to do easily as owners without the bogus VIP for over 15 years).



I agree that renting Wyndham reservations (from a Wyndham owner) may work really well for a lot of people.  

But for us, owning works better for several reasons.

1. DW and I both have demanding jobs and we have two young kids.  So, different things come-up and we end up having to cancel about a third of the Wyndham reservations that we make.  We get our point back and book another vacation.  We could not do this if we were renting from someone else.

2.  The on-line owner access is very valuable.  I am able to book hard-to-get reservations by logging in early at ten-months and grabbing reservations.  I also look for reservations at the 15 day out time, to grab cancellations.  I could not do this without the on-line Wyndham owner access.  Discounts are available to resale non-VIP owners like me as well  (not as good as the VIP discounts and upgrades) but they are search-able on line. 

3. It is easier to get the exact dates and times, that we want,  when we have access and can see on-line (live) exactly what is available - at a given time - for a given time.

4.  Trust and control.  You have to have 100% trust that the person that you are renting from is not going to burn you.  For example,  If you rent from someone, even if you get an email showing that you have a reservation, the points owner can cancel your reservation and get their points back. 

5.  Access to the RCI Portal.  Wyndham points are good for high TPU trades through the Wyndham RCI Portal.  It is a fixed point conversion grid, so the tough trades can be a pretty good value through the RCI Portal.  The portal is also a handy way to look at all of the RCI inventory.


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## am1 (Apr 3, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> I agree that renting Wyndham reservations (from a Wyndham owner) may work really well for a lot of people.
> 
> 4.  Trust and control.  You have to have 100% trust that the person that you are renting from is not going to burn you.  For example,  If you rent from someone, even if you get an email showing that you have a reservation, the points owner can cancel your reservation and get their points back.



People who rent out a lot of reservations are notlooking to burn you.  What kind of business model would that be?


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## timeos2 (Apr 3, 2011)

am1 said:


> People who rent out a lot of reservations are notlooking to burn you.  What kind of business model would that be?



And truth be known I've had far better treatment from the many renters I've used - some of which have since become friends others just a name to which I sent a check - than I got from Wyndham as an owner of over 15 years.  I have 100% trust that Wyndham will find ways to burn owners and they've proved it over the years.


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## DrBopp (Apr 3, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> I agree that renting Wyndham reservations (from a Wyndham owner) may work really well for a lot of people.
> 
> But for us, owning works better for several reasons.
> 
> ...



For all the reasons you named and added to the fact that I waited for a long time to get to this point, I am all for ownership over renting. I think you can find whatever you want either way, but owning appeals more to me.

Gordon


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## timeos2 (Apr 3, 2011)

DrBopp said:


> For all the reasons you named and added to the fact that I waited for a long time to get to this point, I am all for ownership over renting. I think you can find whatever you want either way, but owning appeals more to me.
> 
> Gordon



Gordon -  As long as you are fully aware of the potential issues with any purchase you could do MUCH worse than Wyndham. Regardless of what they do to ruin customer service, billing, management and sales (all of which have been on a steady downward trend for years with the rate of decline accelerating lately) the basic system / rights you obtain via resale still represents one of the true bargains in all of timeshare.  Bought correctly (resale) and used as efficiently as possible you can really do well with the Wyndham system and their overall very good resorts in many locations. Stepping outside the Wyndham system is no longer the deal it used to be and is an example how when things change they normally do not favor the owners. 

Enjoy your resale points.


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## DrBopp (Apr 3, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Gordon -  As long as you are fully aware of the potential issues with any purchase you could do MUCH worse than Wyndham. Regardless of what they do to ruin customer service, billing, management and sales (all of which have been on a steady downward trend for years with the rate of decline accelerating lately) the basic system / rights you obtain via resale still represents one of the true bargains in all of timeshare.  Bought correctly (resale) and used as efficiently as possible you can really do well with the Wyndham system and their overall very good resorts in many locations. Stepping outside the Wyndham system is no longer the deal it used to be and is an example how when things change they normally do not favor the owners.
> 
> Enjoy your resale points.



I agree. I am just going to make the best of it for as long as I own Timeshares. I have been sitting on the sidelines for 20+ years waiting to get in the game. I'm in now and I'm going to make the best of my opportunity while there is still time on the clock. All of the perks, advantages, deal and etc... that went on before I got into it means very little to me now. I know exactly why I bought what I bougt and I plan to maximize my usage(fun) and really enjoy it. When it gets to the point I can't enjoy it, then I am going to hang up my cleats. (How about that for sports references.)

Gordon


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## donno (Apr 4, 2011)

Below is the information I generated from the 2010 data to guide my latest purchase.  It lists the lowest converted week fees and UDI fees for resort associations 10+ years old.  Lots of sub $4/1K for converted weeks, if you can find them. A couple of months ago I bought a Glade / Kensington Woods 154K contract off ebay for $150 and no closing costs.  It takes lots of patience waiting for the best converted weeks with the right amount of points to show on ebay.  I especially like the interior areas (no hurricanes) in lower cost of living areas (Arkansas and Tennessee) in hopes that will result in lower MF into the future.  So far, that has certainly been the case with my Fairfield Bay weeks.

Don


*Converted Weeks*

Resort/Association,  2010 MF,  Rate/1K points on 154K contracts

Bay / Mt. Ridge, 534, 3.47
Bay / Fairways, 575, 3.73

Flagstaff / Tanglewood, 536, 3.48

Glade / Kensington Woods, 565, 3.67
Glade / Oak Knoll, 542, 3.52
Glade / Sterling Forest, 571, 3.71
Glade / Wellington Place, 495, 3.21

Harbour / Harbourside I and II, 559, 3.63

Pagosa / Masters Place, 488, 3.17
Pagosa / Elk Run, 550, 3.57



*UDI*

Resort/Association, Rate/1k

Grand Desert / (all except tower 3), 3.99

Smokey Mountains / Governor’s Crossing I, 3.89
Smokey Mountains / Governor’s Crossing II, 3.73

Sedona, 4.07


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## massvacationer (Apr 4, 2011)

For converted weeks, the 3 BD lock-offs at Kingsgte and the 2 BD lock-offs at Waterfalls (Sea Gardens) are also very low.  There is an SA coming at Waterfalls, though.

I own one of the Wellington Place (Glade) Converted Weeks listed above - and the Maintenance Fees went up to about $550 this year.  The increase over 2010 was all due to increased funding for the reserves to pay for renovations. 

I very much agree with John (timeos2) that owner-controlled boards are better for owners.  I wonder which POAs within the Wyndham system have this.  My guess is that most are influenced by Wyndham, but some of the older resorts may have very-independent Owner Controlled POAs.  I think that this may be the case at Pagosa and New Bern (Harbour).  

My ownerships are at older "Legacy" resorts but I can't really tell whether they have truly owner controlled POAs.


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## ronparise (Apr 5, 2011)

I didnt find any under $4/wyndham points except a San Francisco points contract that is more points than I want and more dollars than I have, I did just win 189000 points at Fairfield Glade, mf advertised at under $5. I wasnt the only bidder and it took $255, but no closing costs and no transfer fees, and no mf due untill 2012.

Im happy, Now well see how accurate the seller was in his presentation


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