# Wyndham Changing The Rules



## pamandpets (Nov 27, 2017)

We bought 105,000 points from Wyndham about 2.5 years ago. Then we found out about after market points and bought 234,000 points from a person who was selling his two deeded weeks in Williamsburg and 84,000 from another person eho had a deeded week in Branson.  Thanks to TUG we got estoppel letters, etc. when we bought our points. We have used all of our points with no problem. But tonight we got a very concerning phone call from Wyndham.

At first the Wyndham Rep said we were going to need to turn the points associated with the deeded properties in to Wyndham and then re-purchase the points from Wyndham because our after market points will be very restricted and basically unusable in the future. Then he realized the points associated with the deeded properties were not purchased from Wyndham. He apologized and said he could not "help" us because Wyndham would not buy back those points as they were not bought from Wyndham in the first place. He said, in the future, when we try to book a resort we are likely to be told the resort is unavailable. The resort may not be booked up but the resort will not accept our after market points. He said, "Of course you won't be told that but that will be the reason." He said Wyndham is doing this to crack down on this cottage industry of people buying millions of points on the after market and reselling them for a profit as this competes with Wyndham sales. 

Is it legal for Wyndham to do this? We bought our points in good faith and we use them according to the rules set out by Wyndham. Can they just suddenly change the rules and we have no recourse? We will pay maintenance fees on something we cannot use and cannot sell? That does not sound right.

He also said only our Access points had pretty stable maintenance fees but with the points connected to the deeded properties the maintenance fees could escalate and we could get hit with special assessments too. It sounds like they want to screw over the people with after market points two ways. One, by not letting you use the points and two, by jacking up the maintenance fees. And we would be stuck. 

What are your thoughts? Do you think this is true? If so, do you think Wyndham owners with after market points could form a class action lawsuit against Wyndham? This just seems wrong that they can do this and owners have no say in it.


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## theo (Nov 27, 2017)

pamandpets said:


> We bought 105,000 points from Wyndham about 2.5 years ago. Then we found out about after market points and bought 234,000 points from a person who was selling his two deeded weeks in Williamsburg and 84,000 from another person eho had a deeded week in Branson.  Thanks to TUG we got estoppel letters, etc. when we bought our points. We have used all of our points with no problem. But tonight we got a very concerning phone call from Wyndham.
> 
> At first the Wyndham Rep said we were going to need to turn the points associated with the deeded properties in to Wyndham and then re-purchase the points from Wyndham because our after market points will be very restricted and basically unusable in the future. Then he realized the points associated with the deeded properties were not purchased from Wyndham. He apologized and said he could not "help" us because Wyndham would not buy back those points as they were not bought from Wyndham in the first place. He said, in the future, when we try to book a resort we are likely to be told the resort is unavailable. The resort may not be booked up but the resort will not accept our after market points. He said, "Of course you won't be told that but that will be the reason." He said Wyndham is doing this to crack down on this cottage industry of people buying millions of points on the after market and reselling them for a profit as this competes with Wyndham sales.
> 
> ...



While I am no fan of Wyndham, I find it hard to believe that whoever called you was actually legitimately associated with Wyndham in any way, shape or form,    unless of course it was a hungry, lying Wyndham sales weasel "greasing the skids" (perhaps before your pending visit to the resort where he "operates"?).
I don't know what the caller's game is, but if not of Wyndham origin, the next "follow up" call may well offer a "solution" to your non-existent "problem" (for a hefty upfront fee, of course, and payable to who-knows-who ).  If it *was* a Wyndham sales weasel calling, even though you couldn't actually see him, we may safely assume that his lips were moving and that, accordingly, he was just flat out lying.

Not much of what you relay as having been portrayed to you seems credible. You certainly don't "have to" do *anything *with your current ownerships.
The only reported claim that makes much sense is that yes, maintenance fees *will* indeed increase --- but that is true for any timeshare anywhere, no matter where, how, or from whom  purchased. I have no idea who called you (or why), but I would take every word you heard with a grain of salt --- and put your checkbook tucked away in a drawer before the "follow up" call comes. Use and enjoy, just as you've been doing. Ignore this (and every) lying sales weasel.

That being said, it would be entirely true that points purchased developer-direct now have considerably less resale value than what you paid originally, but this fact has absolutely *no* bearing or effect upon your actual *use* of the points you own, nor upon space availability nor upon your ability to make reservations.


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## pamandpets (Nov 27, 2017)

theo said:


> While I am no fan of Wyndham, I do not believe that whoever called you was actually legitimately associated with Wyndham in any way, shape or form ---unless it was a hungry, lying sales Wyndham weasel "greasing the skids". I don't know what the caller's game is, but the follow up call will likely offer some sort of "solution" for an upfront fee payable to who-knows-who.
> 
> Not much of what you relay as having been portrayed to you seems credible. You certainly don't "have to" do *anything *with your current ownerships. The only reported claim that makes much sense is that yes, maintenance fees *will* indeed increase --- but that is true for any timeshare anywhere, no matter from whom  purchased. I have no idea who called you (or why), but I would be inclined to take every word you heard with a grain of salt --- and put your checkbook away before the "follow up" call comes.



Thank you for the reassurance Theo.


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## Avislo (Nov 27, 2017)

Agree with the above.  If you are happy with you current account and travel activities do nothing at this time and above all do not worry about it.  A lot of changes are occurring but if any of them affect me you or anyone else remains to be seen.


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## patdouma (Nov 27, 2017)

We received the same sort of phone call a few months ago from a Wyndham rep in Florida.  The phone number was a Wyndham number.  He claimed our resale points would be worth nothing in the future and told us we wouldn't be able to sell them because of this, yet we would still have monthly fees.  He wanted to sell us 100,000 points for $10,000, but we told him, "no".  Anyway, tonight he called again!  We didn't answer since we recognized the number as Wyndham, and he left a voice mail saying we needed to call him to discuss big changes coming for our resale points - we're not calling him back.


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## Avislo (Nov 27, 2017)

Wyndham re-sale points/deeds are not worth much now.  Not much of a change.  If they get to the point they cannot be sold or transferred then I guess the HOAs are going to get a bunch of them back through defaults.


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## pamandpets (Nov 27, 2017)

patdouma said:


> We received the same sort of phone call a few months ago from a Wyndham rep in Florida.  The phone number was a Wyndham number.  He claimed our resale points would be worth nothing in the future and told us we wouldn't be able to sell them because of this, yet we would still have monthly fees.  He wanted to sell us 100,000 points for $10,000, but we told him, "no".  Anyway, tonight he called again!  We didn't answer since we recognized the number as Wyndham, and he left a voice mail saying we needed to call him to discuss big changes coming for our resale points - we're not calling him back.



The guy that called us said he was from Florida too.


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## Jan M. (Nov 28, 2017)

If these are actual Wyndham sales people calling this is beyond low. If anyone gets a call like this they should immediately tell the caller that the call is being recorded. Bet that cuts the call short. If someone was able to record a call from a Wyndham sales person while they are telling these lies I bet lawyers representing class actions suits, attorney generals, regulatory agencies, etc would love to get their hands on that.

For future reference, don't believe ANYTHING they won't put in writing and have signed by corporate. It is widely known that the sales people blatantly lie but as long none of those lies are in the final paperwork you sign they get away with it.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 28, 2017)

Wyndham is most likely the root source of these phone calls. I would think *the real reason* is to either get FREE DEED backs or CWP deeds in trade for CWA points. Might be PRIME locations and times the OP owns or just to control the BOD at older resorts.


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## theo (Nov 28, 2017)

Avislo said:


> Wyndham re-sale points/deeds are not worth much now.  Not much of a change.  If they get to the point they *cannot be sold or transferred then I guess the HOAs are going to get a bunch of them back through defaults.*



With Wyndham's "Ovation" program, at least for as long as that particular "exit ramp" remains open, individual resort HOA's and / or defaults would *both* seem to be irrelevant and completely avoidable --- resale values (or the absence thereof) notwithstanding.

If the OP is satisfied with their use and enjoyment and the associated annual costs of their current ownership, neither Ovation nor any aggressive, intrusive, lying sales weasels really warrant any attention anyhow.


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## Avislo (Nov 28, 2017)

If someone has ownership rights that are eligible for Ovation, this would be a viable transfer option.


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## pamandpets (Nov 28, 2017)

theo said:


> With Wyndham's "Ovation" program, at least for as long as that particular "exit ramp" remains open, individual resort HOA's and / or defaults would *both* seem to be irrelevant and avoidable --- resale values (or lack thereof) notwithstanding.



The guy who called me said I would not be able to turn my after market points in thru Ovation when I no longer wanted/needed them because I was not the original owner. He tried to tell me "all rights" belonged only to the original owner.  I said, "So you are telling me I can't freely use the points, I can't sell them because they won't be useful to anyone else, and I cannot give them back. So I just pay fees for the rest of my life on something useless with no way out ever?" He said he hated to give me bad news like this but the points we bought directly from Wyndham were still useable.  That is only about 25% of the points we own. It did not make sense to me that all rights regarding the points would remain with the original owner who no longer had any connection to the points.  Of course we do not want to get rid of our points at this time but we still want to be able to use them as we have been. I told him we put our points for this year into RCI as I could not travel much due to surgery and had no problem transferring them over. He said, "Well of course they allowed you to make the transfer. They are not going to tell you about the problems with your points." I doubt RCI will have these "problems" when we try to use them or else they should not have accepted the transfer.


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## Avislo (Nov 28, 2017)

If the points transferred to RCI, you will not have problem using them.  It appears the only thing he may have said that may have a kernel of truth to it is that, as I understand the Ovation program, they can accept or not accept what they want.  I would not worry about it until you want to get rid of your ownership.  Today's answer may not be tomorrow's answer.


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## theo (Nov 28, 2017)

pamandpets said:


> The guy who called me said I would not be able to turn my after market points in thru Ovation when I no longer wanted/needed them because I was not the original owner. He tried to tell me "all rights" belonged only to the original owner.  I said, "So you are telling me I can't freely use the points, I can't sell them because they won't be useful to anyone else, and I cannot give them back. So I just pay fees for the rest of my life on something useless with no way out ever?" He said he hated to give me bad news like this but the points we bought directly from Wyndham were still useable.  That is only about 25% of the points we own. It did not make sense to me that all rights regarding the points would remain with the original owner who no longer had any connection to the points.  Of course we do not want to get rid of our points at this time but we still want to be able to use them as we have been. I told him we put our points for this year into RCI as I could not travel much due to surgery and had no problem transferring them over. He said, "Well of course they allowed you to make the transfer. They are not going to tell you about the problems with your points." I doubt RCI will have these "problems" when we try to use them or else they should not have accepted the transfer.



Mostly lies. It is true that Wyndham will not accept anything and everything back via "Ovation", but that deedback acceptance decision is *not* based upon whether the product was acquired developer-direct or resale. In the final analysis, "point are points" and they are all the same, regardless of their origin.

Some people who have returned their developer-direct points purchases via "Ovation" have  apparently received free use of three years worth of points without having to pay fees to do so. It is true that this particular offer / benefit apparently has not been extended to those who have returned *resale* purchases via "Ovation" --- but return those resales they have certainly done just the same. That sales weasel is just conveniently twisting the facts and the truth to suit his own purposes (i.e., to sell you something else, by trying to convince you that what you have is somehow of "lower stature" or somehow "worthless").

I suppose that it's possible (although it's not the case at present) that rules could change in the future regarding the transfer of Wyndham points to RCI.
After all, as you surely know, Wyndham *owns* RCI, so to at least some extent they can write and / or re-write their own rules.

Never forget that Wyndham (and Westgate) sales weasels will lie, exaggerate, misrepresent and obfuscate with no hesitation in order to make a sale. Westgate and Wyndham weasels are (IMnsHO) the worst in the industry in the U.S., although the *world* champions are in Mexico.  They all know that they cannot be held to verbal (e.g., phone) statements and they all know that if something is not overtly expressed in writing within a contract, then it simply does not exist. Even the contracts themselves overtly *state* the fact that *only* its' written contents (not any verbal statements) are legally binding.

IMnsHO, Wyndham (and Westgate) sales weasels are lower life forms than the worm-like critters slithering around in the dark and muck of the ocean floor.
If you are using and enjoying and able to afford what you currently own, just ignore anything and everything that those hungry, deceitful parasites have to say. They only look out for themselves, with absolutely no interest in the fact that you might be quite content and satisfied with what you own, use and enjoy.


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## puppymommo (Nov 28, 2017)

I have owned Wyndham points for nearly 20 years (since back in the Fairfield days). Resale points only. And for almost 20 years Wyndham salespeople have tried to tell me that I will not be able to use my resale points in the future. Hasn't happened yet. Lies and more lies!


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## jwalk03 (Nov 28, 2017)

If resale points stop being of any use than re-sale owners will stop paying the maintenance fees.  Wyndham doesn't want that, they are just trying to sell you more points.  Don't fall for this nonsense.


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## Spartans (Dec 11, 2017)

I'm a very new owner of  resale points. Very small, 168,000 every odd year.  Thought I'd start small and rent also for a year or so to see how I liked Wyndahm. I was told I have 84,000 points a year. Called Wyndahm and they said I can only use my points on odd years now . That it is a new change this year.  Is this true.


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## ecwinch (Dec 11, 2017)

Spartans said:


> I'm a very new owner of  resale points. Very small, 168,000 every odd year.  Thought I'd start small and rent also for a year or so to see how I liked Wyndahm. I was told I have 84,000 points a year. Called Wyndahm and they said I can only use my points on odd years now . That it is a new change this year.  Is this true.



It is true, but is not a change, nor is it new. As an every other year owner, you get the full amount of points only during your odd use year. However for paying your dues they base that on 84k every year plus the annual program fee.

I have not personally done it, and maybe someone will confirm, but I believe you can use the points deposit feature to deposit 84k pts from the year you get points into the next year. There are more cons than pros to doing that IMHO, but it depends on what you are trying to do.


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## Avislo (Dec 11, 2017)

Would cost a fee and would have to make sure deadlines are not missed.


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## Spartans (Dec 11, 2017)

Thanks



ecwinch said:


> It is true, but is not a change, nor is it new. As an every other year owner, you get the full amount of points only during your odd use year. However for paying your dues they base that on 84k every year plus the annual program fee.
> 
> I have not personally done it, and maybe someone will confirm, but I believe you can use the points deposit feature to deposit 84k pts from the year you get points into the next year. There are more cons than pros to doing that IMHO, but it depends on what you are trying to do.


Thanks,  I'm sure Ill get the hang of this program eventually. Alot of info to take in. I love this site. Ive learned alot.


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## Kozman (Dec 12, 2017)

I've received a couple of calls over the past few months from someone claiming they were assigned to my account and wanted to discuss changes that may affect my ownership. I did not answer nor call back. The number is now blocked. In the meantime there have been no problems using my points.


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## north (Dec 12, 2017)

Spartans said:


> I'm a very new owner of  resale points. Very small, 168,000 every odd year.  Thought I'd start small and rent also for a year or so to see how I liked Wyndahm. I was told I have 84,000 points a year. Called Wyndahm and they said I can only use my points on odd years now . That it is a new change this year.  Is this true.


I think you can borrow points in even years if you book within 90 days of the vacation start date.  You can try to make a reservation for February and see if it will let you borrow points from 2019.  You can abort the reservation process before selecting to borrow.


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