# Marriott Vacation Club Announces Points Program



## floyddl (Jul 27, 2006)

Breaking News:

ORLANDO, Fla., July 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacation Club International (MVCI), the recognized worldwide leader in the vacation ownership industry and a division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE: MAR - News), today announced its continued growth into Asia with the opening of its Asia Pacific Regional headquarters in Singapore. As the first major branded hospitality company in the Asian timeshare market, MVCI brings more than 22 years of experience to consumers in this region.
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MVCI Asia Pacific will introduce a new Club Points product uniquely tailored to the vacationing habits of consumers in Asia. The program offers flexibility of use such as duration of stay, accommodation size and location at Club resorts in addition to exchange at MVCI resorts around the world.

"The development of Marriott's Phuket Beach Club in 2001 was just the beginning of our long-range plans for the Asia Pacific region. We have recognized for quite some time that while timeshare is booming elsewhere in the world, Asia is still a relatively untapped market. I am excited about the opportunities that are upon us to offer exceptional vacation experiences to consumers in Asia," said Steve Weisz, president, Marriott Vacation Club International.

The regional Asia Pacific team based in Singapore is lead by Harold Derrah, senior vice president and managing director, MVCI Asia Pacific.

MVCI will continue to develop its core product of deeded or right-to-use vacation ownership resorts in addition to the points-based product for consumers in Asia. Current Asia Pacific plans include developing properties across the region, and utilizing inventory at the existing Marriott's Phuket Beach Club. Marriott's Grand Chateau in Las Vegas, and Marriott's Ko Olina Beach Club, Oahu, Hawaii will also provide inventory to the Club Points product.

Since 1984, Marriott Vacation Club International has been the recognized worldwide leader in vacation ownership with a program highly regarded for its quality and unique flexibility. MVCI currently has over 8,000 timeshare villas worldwide and nearly 312,000 owners own their vacations "The Marriott Way," offering options to exchange within the MVCI portfolio, trade for Marriott Rewards points, exchange within Interval International's global system of 2,000 resorts in 75 countries or rent their week(s). Please visit http://www.vacationclub.com.

MARRIOTT INTERNATIONAL, INC. (NYSE: MAR - News) is a leading lodging company with over 2,800 lodging properties in the United States and 67 other countries and territories. For more information visit http://www.marriott.com.


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## bwenzel (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting.  When we were at Grande Vista in mid July we took the sales tour and the sales rep said that Marriott would absolutely be looking to expand heavily over the next few years having already hired directors and management for the Asian operations, but he said nothing about a points program.  I wonder how this will work and when we will be sent information about the program.


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## timeos2 (Jul 27, 2006)

If it takes off and grows to include all the Marriott resorts bye bye II as even a pretender on the weeks exchange business.


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## floyddl (Jul 28, 2006)

I don't think it would necessarily be the end of II for weeks exchanges.  Hilton has a points program and still uses RCI to offer exchanges.  You would just use an equivalent number of points for a week which Marriott would give II a week in return for the exchange.  It would however eliminate the internal exchanges as you would just call at the designated times and reserve a resort for the appropriate number of points. 

I personally like the flexibility of the points program at Hilton better than the Marriott program but you still have to own fixed weeks to go at high demand times.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jul 28, 2006)

floyddl said:
			
		

> I don't think it would necessarily be the end of II for weeks exchanges.  Hilton has a points program and still uses RCI to offer exchanges.  You would just use an equivalent number of points for a week which Marriott would give II a week in return for the exchange.  It would however eliminate the internal exchanges as you would just call at the designated times and reserve a resort for the appropriate number of points.
> 
> I personally like the flexibility of the points program at Hilton better than the Marriott program but you still have to own fixed weeks to go at high demand times.



However, don't you think they should give owners priority at where they bought to reserve first.  I don't know enough details about how Marriott is going to run their point program to make a decision yet on whether I would like it or not.  Yes, it would definitely be nice to reserve the days you want to stay.  

However, I do see some problems.  For example, on Disney points if they don't fill the unit which happens a lot because people become cheap with their points for weekend stays they can rent out the unit.  Would Marriott be able to do that with deeded properties?  Or would the unit sit empty for the week?   If Marriott does follow this route they really, really need to think it out....  I don't want to lose my priority at my home resort.


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## floyddl (Jul 28, 2006)

ciscogizmo1 said:
			
		

> However, don't you think they should give owners priority at where they bought to reserve first.  I don't know enough details about how Marriott is going to run their point program to make a decision yet on whether I would like it or not.  Yes, it would definitely be nice to reserve the days you want to stay.



Yes, the way Hilton does it owners reserve their home resorts in their owned season starting 12 months out till 9 months out.  At 9 months unreserved inventory is available to any owner in the system.  At 30 days any unreserved nights can be rented by owners at a deeply discounted rate.

I suspect that this initial points club will be expanded and eventually deeded week owners will be presented the option to convert to the points program for some upgrade fee.  Another opportunity for Marriott to create additional revenue from the existing ownership.  This could be an issue for people who are frequent traders.  If the number of weekly stay units are diminished by conversion to points it will become more difficult to get trades.


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## timeos2 (Jul 28, 2006)

floyddl said:
			
		

> Yes, the way Hilton does it owners reserve their home resorts in their owned season starting 12 months out till 9 months out.  At 9 months unreserved inventory is available to any owner in the system.  At 30 days any unreserved nights can be rented by owners at a deeply discounted rate.
> 
> I suspect that this initial points club will be expanded and eventually deeded week owners will be presented the option to convert to the points program for some upgrade fee.  Another opportunity for Marriott to create additional revenue from the existing ownership.  This could be an issue for people who are frequent traders.  If the number of weekly stay units are diminished by conversion to points it will become more difficult to get trades.



That is the way most points based systems work. Hopefully Marriott will let the owners keep the deeded weeks but place them into the points system. If they ask you to give up your deed it isn't a very attractive option.

To see what happens when a resort group moves to an internal points based trade look at Fairfield - they are about 85% converted after 15 years - Sunterra - much less - I've heard its around 35% after 7 years and of course RCI with maybe 15% converted after 4 years.  What happens in every case is the number of units available to weeks owners for trade takes an immediate hit as the early adopters withdraw their units.  Then the slow transistion follows as more and more convert over time.  Even at 30% the pool of exchange for weeks can be slim pickings as many of the remaining 70% might be more prone to use rather than deposit their time. The active traders that deposit the bulk of the available use times tend to move to points if the system is attractive enough.  The FF owners that stuck with weeks find very little to trade to now although they still have the ability to use RCI weeks as long as that system remains viable.  The RCI weeks system is also in transistion to points so eventually the FF weeks owners will be limited to little more than trades between each other.


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## ZCar (Jul 28, 2006)

cisco ...,
Just e-mailed our Sales Exec with similar questions to yours. I really don't expect an answer for a while, as correct info may take a while to filter down.
(As usual, lots of mis-info will be coming along also).
This was due to owning at Ko'Olina, one of the resorts mentioned as being part of the new points system.

Keep in mind that only three existing Resorts, Phuket, Grand Chateau and Ko'Olina, are mentioned at being part of the point system ... at this time. It may take several years for the point system to become universal, if in fact it ever does. I'm a weeks fan.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jul 28, 2006)

ZCar said:
			
		

> cisco ...,
> Just e-mailed our Sales Exec with similar questions to yours. I really don't expect an answer for a while, as correct info may take a while to filter down.
> (As usual, lots of mis-info will be coming along also).
> This was due to owning at Ko'Olina, one of the resorts mentioned as being part of the new points system.
> ...



I agree, I think a lot of people are jumping the gun on this issue.  Let us know what your sales exec says about the points systems.   I'd be curious.

As of right now everything is speculation which is why I don't have an opinion.


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## pwrshift (Jul 28, 2006)

But what if the platinum Maui is worth 5x the points a Manor Club platinum gets?  Right now, you deposit and hope for a week anywhere in the system, but you don't want to think you have to deposit your week 5 times to earn enough points to get Maui.

Brian


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## ZCar (Jul 28, 2006)

Why are people speculating, when no one knows anything more than the announcement? No mention anywhere of all resorts, just those three.


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## Steve (Jul 28, 2006)

The way I read Marriott's announcement, there won't be any impact to current...and future...deeded owners at Ko'Olina, Grand Chateau and Phuket.  It sounds to me like Marriott is planning to sell some of the inventory of unsold villas at these three resorts to their new points club for use by the new club owners.  

In other words, instead of Mr & Mrs X buying the week...Marriott's new points club will buy the week from MVCI and put it into the new points system.  It sounds like they are going to sell just a portion of the remaining inventory...which means that MVCI will continue to sell floating deeded weeks at these resorts just as they have been doing.  So, instead of (for example) 600 villas at Ko'Olina which are all owned by individual deeded owners at build out...now there will be (again, for example) 550 villas owned by individual deeded owners and 50 villas which will be owned by the new Marriott points entity.  

I really don't think this is cause for any concern at all.

Steve


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## wuv pooh (Jul 28, 2006)

Steve said:
			
		

> The way I read Marriott's announcement, there won't be any impact to current...and future...deeded owners at Ko'Olina, Grand Chateau and Phuket.  It sounds to me like Marriott is planning to sell some of the inventory of unsold villas at these three resorts to their new points club for use by the new club owners.
> 
> I really don't think this is cause for any concern at all.
> 
> Steve



Agreed.  Think about it.  They are marketing to Asia:

1. Hawaii is huge for Japanese buyers - Ko Olina
2. Gambling is huge for Chinese buyers - Grand Chateau

Think of the marketing: Buy now and you will get xxx,xxx Marriott reward points.  That is enough for 2 first class tickets to the US.  You can use your timeshare for 4 nights in Hawaii and 3 nights in Vegas.  Then go to NYC and Washington DC and stay at a hotel on points.  The trip of a lifetime for a mere 220,000 yuan 

I see it as a test case.  They will learn how to sell it, manage it, and see what issues develop.  Then, if they want to expand into the whole system they will have a lot better result, or they may learn that they don't want a points system after all.


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## jerseyfinn (Jul 28, 2006)

Steve,

Might this partial move towards points suggest that Hawaii or Vegas sales are not as robust as originally projected, and this coupled with the SARS and tsunami crisis which dink Asian economoic and resort growth is forcing a Marriott rethink as they try to retool a portion of the product to jumpstart another regional sales demographic? I simply don't like this hybridization of the MVCI product line. It's not as distinct as Grand Residence or Tahoe for example.

As things stand now, we MVCI owners already have good alternatives ( occupy/trade/rent/MR points ) as well as a leg up with II from the 20 day Marriott rule. Throw in the bonus weeks one can sometimes obtain, and I'm really not interested in yet another points option nor do I want to compete against it.

I agree that there really is no issue to worry about at the moment. But the door is now ajar, and we've got to keep an eye on another part of the house lest the wind blow in. Did Marriott even need to open that door?

Barry


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## littlestar (Jul 29, 2006)

Steve said:
			
		

> The way I read Marriott's announcement, there won't be any impact to current...and future...deeded owners at Ko'Olina, Grand Chateau and Phuket.  It sounds to me like Marriott is planning to sell some of the inventory of unsold villas at these three resorts to their new points club for use by the new club owners.
> 
> In other words, instead of Mr & Mrs X buying the week...Marriott's new points club will buy the week from MVCI and put it into the new points system.  It sounds like they are going to sell just a portion of the remaining inventory...which means that MVCI will continue to sell floating deeded weeks at these resorts just as they have been doing.  So, instead of (for example) 600 villas at Ko'Olina which are all owned by individual deeded owners at build out...now there will be (again, for example) 550 villas owned by individual deeded owners and 50 villas which will be owned by the new Marriott points entity.
> 
> ...



That makes a lot of sense, Steve. There have been some "what if" discussions on the Dis boards about Disney linking up with Marriott's Ko Olina resort for some points inventory for members in Hawaii without Disney having to develop a property there. I think the Adventures by Disney on Oahu are at Ko Olina (in the hotel part I believe). I wonder if there could be partnerships between different resort groups for points in the future?


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## Beverley (Jul 29, 2006)

Barry,

I am sooo with you on this.  I do not want Marriott to go to a points based system for any of my deeded weeks.  I liked the idea of deeded weeks.  I also do not relish my trade power or flexibility being reduced, and it will be if they go to all points beyond what they are planning with Asia. Currently, I have been sucessful trading into to platinum seasons with some of my gold weeks.  Many others have also had this type of success.  With a points based system, I imagine we would get less than a week in order to go from a "lower" season to a "higher" season.  

One of my pet pieves is the nonsensical determination of platinum/ gold seasons in Florida.  Specifically, summer being gold for Ocean Point but Platinum for Beach Place.  My thoughts this was a function of trying to make the Florida Club work. I buy summer because I can travel then.  This is weather it is gold or platinum ... 

If I want a point system, I'll buy one, as I did with World Mark.  I, personally, do not want any conversion.  Thanks all for allowing me my "soap box"   

Beverley


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## jerseyfinn (Jul 30, 2006)

Beverley,

We're absolutely satisfied owners of MVCI and how it works for us. But I've grown a bit leery of a few things that Marriott does recently, including the new points announcement. None of these changes alone signals anything big or forboding is on the horizon. But it does give me pause to watch Marriott more closely, especially after the recental rental fiasco.

The change in the rental program was a plain and simple stealth move to get rid of an admittedly cumbersome rental program ( to Marriott ) as well as a naked grab for money as Marriott raises the Marriott.com prices for the weeks you give them to rent while actually giving you *less *money for your week. Granted, only 5% of owners utilize this rental program, but I was toasted when MVC insists that it was because of owner feedback that they change the program. Call it what it is -- a money grab! I was most surprised that after writing a polite, but succinct letter to Mr. Wadjka, I never receive a reply. I've lost some of my confidence in Marriott.

Although nominally announced as a limited and specific program for 3 MVCI resorts, no one can say definitively which way this new points thing could go in the long run. Remember, there's a little clause in our purchase contracts conceding that Mariott can change/alter/drop the program at any time. Seems unlikely when we purchase, but nothing is etched in stone here.

Quality, value, and flexibility are why we purchase MVCI and I keep my eyes open whenever changes are made which could impact these variables. Change is of course inevitible, and not all change is bad.  But this points scheme represents a fundamental change in vision which is presently being explained as a dedicated regional program which will not affect present owners.  I certainly hope that it stays that way.

As you point out, we already live with "quirks" in the MVC system such as puzzeling season designations between some resorts, the annual cost of a Florida Club program with no opt-out that less than half of the folks use ( at least at Ocean Pointe ), the rental program change, and now this new "regional" points system.

We need only keep enjoying our resorts for now, but we should keep our eyes open for fundamental changes which might in time, significantly alter the character of the program for all of us. If I wanted an RCI-type program, I would have bought into that system. Let's hope MVC keeps it that way 5 years from now and beyond.

Barry


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## camachinist (Jul 30, 2006)

> But I've grown a bit leery of a few things that Marriott does recently, including the new points announcement. None of these changes alone signals anything big or forboding is on the horizon. But it does give me pause to watch Marriott more closely, especially after the recental rental fiasco.



I'm already planning our exit strategy.... 

If things keep going the way they are, both with the logistics you mention as well as the crazy price appreciation, I'll be looking to turn our units into a nice retirement lot somewhere in about 2009...

A Marriott internal exchange program I like. Points? Nuh uh...I've seen what Marriott does to MRP's..

Pat


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## ArtsieAng (Jul 30, 2006)

I would not object to Marriott having a "point system" similar to SVO. In fact, I would like it very much.


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## PerryM (Jul 30, 2006)

*We would become Marriott owners again!*

If Marriott installed a Point based system “on top” of their existing deeded/RTU week system we probably would become Marriott owners once again.  Why?  Because we would not be able to get into the Marriotts with our WM credits anymore – there would be few Marriotts in II.

I’ve explained how a Point based system would fit nicely “on top” of the existing week system before, I’ll recap (This is NOT Marriott Reward points):

Each Marriott owner would have a new Points account that initially contained zero points.  If you want to use the point program, you would look up your season at your resort and exchange your season usage for a fixed number of points.  You would NOT be allowed to lock in a juicy week a generic point value would be deposited for you.  E.g. you own Platinum at Summit Watch and 4,620 points would be deposited into your account.

Why 4,620 Points?  Marriott charges $660 rent per night at Summit Watch during Platinum season * 7 nights = 4,620.  To make the system fair, points are assigned to rental values.

Since we really own a Gold Summit Watch, we would receive $289 (Rental rate)/nite * 7 nites = 2,023 points.  Lets say that I “roll forward” 2006 usage to next year and in 2007 “borrow” 2,023 points from 2008 to combine with 2007 usage of 2,023 next year I’ve got 6,069 points which would get me a Platinum week at Summit Watch from 3 years worth of my Gold Summit Watch!  We ski Platinum with our Gold and have 6,069 – 4,620 or 1,449 Points left over to use or combine for future vacations.

This is why we would buy Marriott’s again – usage would be deposited into the Point system and ONLY folks who wish to exchange in II would deposit a reserved week into II.  Since few Marriotts are deposited their trading power skyrockets and our WM will never “see” them again – only Four Seasons and stellar exchangers get Marriotts.

None of this needs the approval of any HOA, and does not violate any existing rules.

Marriott would not make any distinction between Marriott sales and resales in this system.


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## floyddl (Jul 30, 2006)

Everyone should realize that Marriott is not going to maintain this Point program in Asia with 3 resorts.  They chose the 3 most popular ones with people from Asia but to grow it they will need to offer more.  They will have to either incent people to convert from weeks to points or offer a means to give up weeks to be used in the points program.  

Say what you will about not having reason for concern, but I see a point program that will eventually mean changes that will be good for some but mostly for the new buyers that sign up in the points program.  Current owners with floating time could find that to get maximum benefit from the program they need to convert to the points program.

Just my opinion.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2006)

I don't own a Marriott.  But, if they design it well, I'll buy into it.


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## short (Jul 30, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I don't own a Marriott.  But, if they design it well, I'll buy into it.



Same here.

Short


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2006)

Beverley said:
			
		

> Barry,
> 
> I am sooo with you on this.  I do not want Marriott to go to a points based system for any of my deeded weeks.  I liked the idea of deeded weeks.  I also do not relish my trade power or flexibility being reduced, and it will be if they go to all points beyond what they are planning with Asia. Currently, I have been sucessful trading into to platinum seasons with some of my gold weeks.  Many others have also had this type of success.  With a points based system, I imagine we would get less than a week in order to go from a "lower" season to a "higher" season.
> 
> ...



Marriott cannot force you to convert your deeded week into points.  They can only provide you an incentive to do so.  If it works like Hyatt's program, you won't lose any benefits, only gain them.

What Marriott can do is make it more difficult for you to trade from Gold to Platinum, though.  After all, you didn't buy that aspect of exchanging.  It just came along with II.  I suspect point owners will now get those benefits.

Also, new resorts may become exclusively points based.  Marriott can't force you to upgrade, but they can make it so that you need to do so in order to get access to what's new.  I would be surprised if they didn't do this.


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## floyddl (Jul 30, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> What Marriott can do is make it more difficult for you to trade from Gold to Platinum, though.  After all, you didn't buy that aspect of exchanging.  It just came along with II.  I suspect point owners will now get those benefits.



If the point system works like the others I don't think you will find it more difficult to traded from Gold to Platinum.  It will just involve using more points than your gold week is worth to reserve a Platinum week.  I think that it may be easier to get what you want with the exception of the current Plat. Plus weeks.  You will just have to borrow future points or own multiple weeks to have the required points.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2006)

floyddl said:
			
		

> If the point system works like the others I don't think you will find it more difficult to traded from Gold to Platinum.  It will just involve using more points than your gold week is worth to reserve a Platinum week.  I think that it may be easier to get what you want with the exception of the current Plat. Plus weeks.  You will just have to borrow future points or own multiple weeks to have the required points.



Floyd,

I agree with you.  In a points system, everyone has access to everything available.  What varies is price in terms of points.

What I was referring to is that it will probably become more difficult for fixed/floating week owners to trade up from Gold to Platinum through II especially since those weeks may be reserved for internal exchanges first.  If you are not a points member, you may not be eligible for internal exchange.


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## mj2vacation (Jul 31, 2006)

from a very well placed source (not a sales rep), there is absolutely no plan to touch the system in the US (other than the two resorts mentioned).  

That being said, the only thing constant is change.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2006)

mj2vacation said:
			
		

> from a very well placed source (not a sales rep), there is absolutely no plan to touch the system in the US (other than the two resorts mentioned).
> 
> That being said, the only thing constant is change.



That's the answer to every unannounced activity within any company even if they do have the intention of doing it.  

ex:  We have no plan for further force reductions at this time.


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## PerryM (Jul 31, 2006)

*The real reason*

Bronze weeks is much harder to sell than Silver weeks.

Silver is much harder to sell than Gold.

Gold is much harder to sell than Platinum

Platinum is much harder to sell than Platinum Plus.

The above is why Marriott is interested in a Point system – it will make selling the hardest to sell weeks much easier.

I can just hear the Marriott salesrep:

“I know we sold out of Platinum and Platinum Plus but Bronze is just as good – if you buy several of them”

“Sure you’ll be making multiple maintenance fees – but you don’t have to put up the money for a Platinum or finance it at that level”…..”Pay cash for a Gold or Silver week and get several and you can use Platinum season too”.

The first weeks to sell out are Platinum Plus fixed holiday weeks and the last to sell out are Silver and lower.  Marriott will now be able to sell out ALL weeks much faster.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2006)

*Re: The real reason*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Bronze weeks is much harder to sell than Silver weeks.
> 
> Silver is much harder to sell than Gold.
> 
> ...



Perry,

It's unlikely that Marriott will introduce a UDI system of points.  In that scenario, the maintenance fee per point is the same for all point sizes and therefore you can mix and match the deeds you want to achieve the point values you want.

Marriott will probably be more like Hyatt and HGVC where the MF/point for bronze weeks is very high relative to Platinum weeks.  So, this will discourage hoarding of Bronze weeks for use at Platinum intervals for trade ups.


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## PerryM (Jul 31, 2006)

*It's all about the sale*

BB,

Well, I view all developer decisions from the sales rep’s point of view – what ever makes them generate more sales is the correct answer.  The owner if far down on the list of priorities.

The system I’ve described would make the Silver weeks fly out the door – a very desirable outcome for Marriott.  If Marriott can cut maybe 2 years off the normal 5 year sell cycle that means more resorts can be built at an ever faster rate.

Marriott salesreps are NO LONGER selling ownership at their single resort in a single season but ALL Marriotts for ALL seasons.  I’m sure clever salesreps will quickly determine the cost/Point and plug the advantages of buying from their Marriott resort over all the rest.

Points are points and if the Silver owner pays 3 times as much in MFs I don’t think Marriott will mind a second, neither will the owners.

Will the Platinum owner feel the pinch from the Silver owners – they might, but I don’t think that bothers Marriott and the Platinum owner can still rent his reserved weeks out (Or II exchange) with much less competition from other Platinum owners who really want to use another Marriott location and will gladly deposit their units.

Hopefully Marriott will introduce a way to alleviate the current fiasco of making high demand reservations.  A few methods which would go hat-in-hand with this system might be:

•	Lottery
•	Sealed bid Auction
•	Holiday bidding system

My favorite is the Holiday bidding system (Used by a number of Destination Clubs) – it costs no more in points and allows owners tremendous options for their holiday reservations:

Each year each owner gets 100 “Holiday credits” and you get to “bid” on holiday weeks at ALL Marriotts.  If you own several Platinum weeks at Orlando and want to spend Week 52 at Maui (and have the points to do it) then you might bid all 100 points for Week 52 at Maui.

If you win your holiday credits (and points) are deducted from your account.  If you don’t get your desired week then those credits roll forward to next year so you would have 200 credits to bid.  Now you might bid 125 credits for Maui and 50 for some other holiday week and 25 from another.  Or, bid 300 Holiday credits on 1 week (100 Holiday credits borrowed from next year's allocation).

Even with this system you can “bank” holiday credits forward and “borrow” from next years credits.

Gone are the maddening phone calls and internet clicks exactly at 8 AM CST to try to get a hot holiday week - a VERY desirable outcome for Marriott.

P.S.
When Holiday bidding ends the computer sorts the bids and awards reservations based upon the highest number bid and the timestamp is used for ties.


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## floyddl (Jul 31, 2006)

mj2vacation said:
			
		

> from a very well placed source (not a sales rep), there is absolutely no plan to touch the system in the US (other than the two resorts mentioned).
> 
> That being said, the only thing constant is change.



It seems that they have already touched the system in the US by converting from weeks sales to points sales at Las Vegas and Oahu.  Thailand fits the asian market but selling US based resorts in their new points system affect the current weeks inventory.  

Do they really expect people to believe that there will not be additional conversions at other existing and new resorts?  Marriott is into growth and profitability and the points system will be expanded.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2006)

floyddl said:
			
		

> It seems that they have already touched the system in the US by converting from weeks sales to points sales at Las Vegas and Oahu.  Thailand fits the asian market but selling US based resorts in their new points system affect the current weeks inventory.
> 
> Do they really expect people to believe that there will not be additional conversions at other existing and new resorts?  Marriott is into growth and profitability and the points system will be expanded.



I agree.  If the points product is successful in this market trial, I have no doubt that Marriott will expand it to the rest of MVCI.  The key question will be what will be the stick and carrott they offer owners to convert.  If owners don't convert their weeks into points, then the point system is not valuable.


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## Dave M (Jul 31, 2006)

floyddl said:
			
		

> It seems that they have already touched the system in the US by converting from weeks sales to points sales at Las Vegas and Oahu.


Your statement makes it appear that all future sales at these two resorts will be on a points basis. That's not what will happen. Those two resorts will make some weeks available to the new points system but will still be selling traditional weeks.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 31, 2006)

I just bought at one of these resorts (Ko'Olina) and pretty much think it's a good idea Marriott is trying something new. They might benefit from this, but I see that I might, too. I guess time will tell. I am not going to worry about it this early. 
We liked the DVC points thing, so maybe this will be similar. The main thing causing us not to buy DVC was that expiring right-to-use "deed" and their very limited number of resorts mostly in Orlando. Otherwise, I liked the flexible points system.


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## floyddl (Jul 31, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> Your statement makes it appear that all future sales at these two resorts will be on a points basis. That's not what will happen. Those two resorts will make some weeks available to the new points system but will still be selling traditional weeks.




I did not mean to imply that all future sales would be points.  But you cannot say there has been no impact as weeks there were to be sold as weeks usage are no longer in the pool of available rooms for possible trades thru II for weeks owners that are trying to get there.


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## Dave M (Jul 31, 2006)

I agree. 

That might be a good thing for weeks owners (such as myself) at Grand Chateau or at Ko Olina. A smaller pool of weeks at those resorts deposited with II might well mean higher exchange value for those weeks.


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## floyddl (Jul 31, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> That might be a good thing for weeks owners (such as myself) at Grand Chateau or at Ko Olina. A smaller pool of weeks at those resorts deposited with II might well mean higher exchange value for those weeks.



Very true, may be good for existing owners but not so good for people who want to trade-in.


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## jerseyfinn (Jul 31, 2006)

*. . . speculation ir premature, but . . . .*

*. . . Do they really expect people to believe that there will not be additional conversions at other existing and new resorts? Marriott is into growth and profitability and the points system will be expanded. . .*

Marriott will do precisely what Marriott wants to do. That's the reality of the inertia that MVC has created with a lot of hard work, MONEY, planning, and initiative as they've developed their TS product over the years ( and to the benefit of the majority of folks who own ). As _Bocabum _suggests, the real question is how and what Marriott will do to get owners to buy into the "vision". But if it's out there, it's there for a bigger reason -- either a long term plan, or simply just a trial balloon like those flown by so many presidential hopefuls every four years.

All I know is that years ago, I and lots of other folks sit down and learn how MVC program dynamics work and we make purchase decisions according to the game board that Marriott and II gives us to play on. I'm certainly not too old to change, but neither do I feel compelled to change just because Marriott says its the best thing since buttered bread. 

Perry outlines a lot of ideas and what ifs, and I've got to chew upon them to determine what it might really mean to me. But when I've got sit down and do calculations which look and feel like the IRS tax code, then I'm naturally reluctant when both the government and Marriott say "trust me". 

As noted, sales is always about *their *bottom line. Occassionally, the interests of the buyer also coincide with sale's interests and we get to go along for the ride, but only as an afterthought.

It will be interesting to see how this seemingly innocuous "limited" experiment proceeds. 

Barry


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## hipslo (Jul 31, 2006)

I have been reading this thread concerning various takes on a points system, what it means, how likely it is, implications, etc.  I am concerned about what sort of adverse impact this could have on someone in my situation, if it were to be expanded more universally.  Perhaps I am needlessly concerned?  Looking for advice/ input. 

 Here is my situation.  I currently own three platinum weeks at Mountainside, and am under contract to purchase an off season week elsewhere, making a total of four weeks.  My strategy is to use the four weeks to make consecutive reservations 13 months prior to the first week, effectively letting me reserve the one week I actually plan on using at Mountainside 14 months in advance.  I intend to rent out the other three weeks.  Years from now, if and when I am in a position to retire, or at least work less and vacation more, I would like to spend 3 consecutive weeks at Mountainside (maybe more, even, if I find and purchase additional platinum resale weeks in the interim).  

So, if there were a move to a points system, any sense of what sort of an impact it might have on me?  I have no interest in or need to trade, my only concerns are ability to reserve the weeks I need, and, for the forseeable future, rent them out.  Could I be forced into some system that works in some way that would be less advantageous to me than the current system?  Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


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## timeos2 (Jul 31, 2006)

hipslo said:
			
		

> So, if there were a move to a points system, any sense of what sort of an impact it might have on me?  I have no interest in or need to trade, my only concerns are ability to reserve the weeks I need, and, for the forseeable future, rent them out.  Could I be forced into some system that works in some way that would be less advantageous to me than the current system?  Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


Shouldn't have any impact on your desired use plan at all.


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## JimC (Jul 31, 2006)

I find this interesting.  When we bought into MVCI we were already Disney Vacation Club members.  The Disney points system has worked very well for us.  I look forward to seeing how Marriott proceeds with this initiative.


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## jancurious (Aug 1, 2006)

This is a great thread.  I am really enjoying learning more about how the points programs with the other hotel chains seem to work.  

I think all of us are looking at why we bought the Marriott weeks that we bought, and how this may affect us sometime in the future.

It seems if you are into renting your units, it shouldn’t impact you.  If you want to use the weeks you have purchased at your home resort, it shouldn’t impact you.  The only impact I have heard so far is exchanging.  It probably won’t impact you if you are trading a platinum unit but the lower units probably won’t do as well as they have in the past.  However, I know with Hyatt, they determine which week & resort to deposit on your behalf so if Marriott followed this pattern, it could affect all trading (outside of Marriott probably).

I guess we are back to the axiom I was told here before I purchased my first timeshare – buy where you want to go most years & you will never regret your purchase.

All of this is assuming that Marriott eventually expands the points beyond the three resorts they have announced so far.

Jan


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## iamnotshopgirl (Aug 1, 2006)

I find this thread interesting too. I do not know much about point programs and have looked at Disney on occassion to see what value a point is on the resale market but never delved into the programs details. MVCI may or may not go to a point system in the future (other than the resorts stated above) but this gives me time to read up and educate myself about a "point" system pro and con so if MVCI makes change  and owners are given a chance to choose I can make an informed decision.Great thread...hope to see more on this topic.

bob


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## jerseyfinn (Aug 1, 2006)

FWIW,

_Timeshare Today_ magazine has run lots of letters and articles from RCI folks regarding the point system that RCI has implemented. It sounds as if there's a lot controversay about the value of the RCI points as well as what RCI does with the inventory-- and two large class action law suits have followed. 

I personally know nothing about RCI since we don't have any involvement with it. We've met RCI owners in the past who have talked about the point system. One couple liked it, the other didn't. None of this says anything one way or the other.

This does not suggest that the Marriott implementation will look or act anything like this. I do suggest following the RCI board and other sources for examples of various point systems and their implementation/function.

The waters can be both murkey and warm and inviting.

Barry


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## PerryM (Aug 1, 2006)

*What NOT to do!*

RCI is twice as large as all the rest of the exchange companies combined.  When companies have little competition to worry about, they get sloppy and don’t seem to care what the outcome of their actions is.  That’s exactly when they are most vulnerable and subject to a kick in the pants to wake them up.

If you could make a list of every wrong decision, bone-headed decision, stupid decision, RCI Points fits that bill to a Tee.  Their implementation of Points was and is terrible.  From the half-baked generic calendars to the gouging of HOAs and developers charging thousands of dollars for a weeks-to-points conversion when it costs just $199 – RCI Points will some day be a case study of bungling, insane management in a monopoly environment that MBA students will snicker at for generations to come.

I would not assume that II or Marriott would implement a Point based system the same way – if they implement one at all.  Done properly a Point system will add much value to their customers and increase the demand for their product/service.

Will Marriott learn from the mistakes of RCI Points – I sure hope so.  I would hope that Marriott had one of those huge corkboards titled *“Don’t do this!” *and describe the RCI Point system in detail.  With one exception, RCI screwed up every major part of a Point system.  Oh, the part they got right was the name “RCI Points” – that’s about it.

To me, there is no comparison to a week system to a point system in terms of flexibility, which I believe is desired after the first couple of uses of a timeshare.

It’s funny but I think, on the opposite side of the spectrum is the Fixed Week in a Fixed Condo,  is a winner too.  Marriott’s new tower in Maui sells this and if you add a Point system on top of it you have the ultimate in timeshare usage – at least to me.


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## Steve (Aug 1, 2006)

*Hyatt*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> It’s funny but I think, on the opposite side of the spectrum is the Fixed Week in a Fixed Condo,  is a winner too.  Marriott’s new tower in Maui sells this and if you add a Point system on top of it you have the ultimate in timeshare usage – at least to me.



Perry, you've just described the Hyatt Vacation Club.  Hyatt owners own a fixed week, fixed unit...with a points overlay for exchanging.  I'm not an owner at Hyatt yet, but their system has some great aspects to it.

Steve


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## ciscogizmo1 (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Hyatt*



			
				Steve said:
			
		

> Perry, you've just described the Hyatt Vacation Club.  Hyatt owners own a fixed week, fixed unit...with a points overlay for exchanging.  I'm not an owner at Hyatt yet, but their system has some great aspects to it.
> 
> Steve



I think these programs are great if they start out that way.  The way I look at it if Marriott tries to convert from weeks to points they are just going to have a lot of problems.  You can never make everyone happy.  How would Marriott change the program from a floating week program to a fixed week, fixed unit with points overlay for exchanging.   That's where I think the problem will lie.  Most Marriott owners do not own a fixed week.  We all own floating weeks.  I don't know of anyone in Marriott that owns a fixed unit.   What is everyone stuck with the week that was deeded to them?  And, the unit that was deeded to them?


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## floyddl (Aug 2, 2006)

There is no good way to convert to fixed weeks and units from floating.  I don't see that happening.  What would likely happen is that Marriott would allow you to convert from the current floating and fixed weeks (without fixed units) to an equivalent point value based upon the type of week (season and location) you own.  

The new points program would come with added flexibility and new features that would allow Marriott to charge current owners an upgrade fee to convert to points.  People who choose not to convert would eventually become a minority of the membership which would impact trading ability and possibly other features that they currently enjoy.


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## PerryM (Aug 2, 2006)

*Marriott would do it right*

I personally don’t think Marriott needs to do anything but introduce a fantastic Points Program and “they will come” and use it – if designed correctly.

If Marriott introduces a dynamite Point system that the salesreps throw parties for – this is all that is needed.  Sales from that moment on would be geared towards Points usage and I’m sure Marriott would hold first class traveling shows in the top 50 cities that would encourage Marriott owners to learn all about Points.  Points should be absolutely free to all Marriott owners.

I’m not sure that Marriott would even make a distinction between developer sales and resales – if the Point system is that good.

However, if Marriott raids the RCI Points management team and implements "rci da Points program", then yes carrots and sticks must be used to beat compliance with Marriott owners.  I just can’t imagine Marriott doing anything but a first class job.

I can’t see implementing a fixed week, fixed condo in Points.  I would hope that from now on Marriott offers a fixed week and condo option for a 20% premium at all new resorts.  (Holiday weeks would just have the 20% option for a fixed condo).


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## ciscogizmo1 (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Marriott would do it right*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Points should be absolutely free to all Marriott owners.



Do you mean free to use or free to convert?


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## jerseyfinn (Aug 2, 2006)

*. . . There is no good way to convert to fixed weeks and units from floating. I don't see that happening. What would likely happen is that Marriott would allow you to convert from the current floating and fixed weeks (without fixed units) to an equivalent point value based upon the type of week (season and location) you own . . . *

Continuing "what if" thoughts on this very interesting thread.

_Floyddl _& _ciscogizmo _touch upon an important point. 

The overwhelming majority of MVC weeks are *floating weeks*. IMO, Marriott was spot on years ago when they develop their program as a floating week program. It allows the greatest ownership flexibility ( and in a twisted logic of its own -- "democracy"). Consider that every MVC owner of a specific resort/season has a theoretical chance to nail down one of those highly sought-after weeks. Of course this comes via a frequently discordant reservation system/process, and there's a lot of disappointment/angst by those who don't succeed in reserving that sought-after week, but what other way is there to create *potential parity *amongst thousands of owners? We bought the product with full knowledge of this, although many folks did not initially realize the practical imperatives. Given all of this, I'm quite satisfied with our multi-week ownership, uncertainty and all.

But as the MVC product has matured, two things become increasingly apparant to Marriott. First, *prime resort land is becoming an increasingly expensive commodity to find *( for example, MVC will never be able to consider another Florida on-the-beach resort such as Ocean Pointe simply because of the prohibitive economics of the land and development costs ). This is true in lots of places. Note that there will be more joint hotel/resort and timeshare combination type resorts in the future simply because of these high costs. This is the strategy MVC will pursue in Florida and at locations such as St. Thomas and St. Kitts. 

Second, as the TS market matures, Marriott has become *more bottom line conscious*. Hence many of the new resorts are offering fixed and premium weeks. Indeed a market exists for folks who will pay the premium prices for the assurance of a fixed week. In one sense, it's simply a sign of the times as the market matures & new resorts are increasingly costly to build and more difficult to sell to a discriminating public. But look closely at some of the recent new offerings, and one thing I note is that prices are racheting way up there from the get go.  It might reflect great potential price appreciation, but it might also reflect a shrewder MVC marketing strategy.  It's simply getting a little more difficult to determine what constitutes a good deal because the destination and the market dynamics have evolved.

I think that we as MVC owners should keep these forces in mind as the future continues to unfold before us. Desperate to create more premiums (  read that income ), MVC won't hesitate to tinker with the product base if it see a buck in it.  I think that we should all look more closely at what we currently have and be prepared to posit this against whatever "new future" MVC or anyone else tries to trumpet.  We might be better off with what we already have, warts and all.

Barry


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## floyddl (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Marriott would do it right*



			
				ciscogizmo1 said:
			
		

> Do you mean free to use or free to convert?



It sounds like Perry means no conversion fee.  That could be but the first timeshare I purchased was a fixed week and unit.  Fairfield purchased the resort introduced a points programs to the owners.  They wanted to charge a fee to convert to the points program.  I had a prime week and view and had no desire to do that.

I seriously doubt that Marriott will pass on an opportunity to make money.


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## PerryM (Aug 2, 2006)

*Migrating owners*

Cisco,

Conversion should be absolutely free – Marriott could put a “special” of free conversion if done in 180 days and then a $500 charge later (or whatever) – if they want.  Folks do need to be prodded into action.  Marriott needs ALL the existing owners to migrate to Points in one fell swoop.

Yearly dues could be minimal $100 or so.  A better way might be a fee per transaction and make membership free.  The way to keep fees to a minimum is to rid the Points system of human beings!  Computers, via the internet, should be the ONLY way to use such a system.  Folks who don’t know how to turn on a computer and operate a mouse should be relegated to the existing system of operators.

The existing reservation system would remain the same for a number of years and then ended – at that time folks who can’t operate the Internet would pay a hefty fee to speak to a person.  Maybe one of those 900 numbers would get them going.

A Point system will open the sales doors for easier sales and convincing the existing Marriott owners could be very easy if Marriott offers the goodies needed to make dreaming of vacations part of its function.

If Marriott notifies its owners that Points is the wave of the future, offers incentives to convert, and then announces future termination of the existing system, owners will feel the need to migrate.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: Marriott would do it right*



			
				floyddl said:
			
		

> It sounds like Perry means no conversion fee.  That could be but the first timeshare I purchased was a fixed week and unit.  Fairfield purchased the resort introduced a points programs to the owners.  They wanted to charge a fee to convert to the points program.  I had a prime week and view and had no desire to do that.
> 
> I seriously doubt that Marriott will pass on an opportunity to make money.



Can I ask how much they wanted to charge you to convert your week?  What was your purchase price?  You can make up numbers if you want just as long as I know how much more money they wanted in addition to your purchasing price.

I know for me I'd rather use and rent than trade if they are going to charge.  Marriott already charges a premium for their product.  I have hard time understanding why people would pay to convert their floating or fixed weeks to points.  Maybe that's where I'm hung up on this.  How about resorts that are already sold out?  Also, I don't understand the justification to charge to convert to points?  I guess, it is all about money.  I just don't understand.


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## floyddl (Aug 2, 2006)

Cisco, I never got past the fact that there was an upgrade cost and never went to listen to the sales pitch so I really don't know how much the cost was.  

Perry could be right if Marriott wants to force conversions quickly but I think that they would rather promote the benefits of the points system over the current week system and let people know what the impact would be to not convert to entice them to fork over the extra money.  

The part I have difficulty grasping is what they will do with the people who own floating weeks and don't want to convert.  That means they have to continue to support two systems which could be costly.  Even with fixed weeks you still have 3 checkin dates and unassigned rooms to deal with.


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## rfb813 (Aug 2, 2006)

This has all happened before with the Hilton Grand Vacation Club (HGVC). When Mariner Corp and Hilton created the HGVC in 1993, the Mariner Resorts which were the composed of Fixed week and Floating Week resorts were the primary resorts available until the HGVC Orlando and LV Flamingo were built. The HGVC when formed offered owners of Mariner resorts which are now managed by HGVC the opportunity to join the club for a membership fee of, as I recall $150 per week which included your RCI membership (I understand the entrance fee into the club is now $399) and the ability to exchange for Hilton Honors Point. When you joined the club your unit was assigned a number of points based on the season. For those with floating units which encompassed various seasons the the owner would reserve a unit week and the points allocated for that year would be based on the season reserved. For fixed week owners the HGVC automatically reserved your unit week and it is up to you to cancel  if you do not wish to use and exchange within the club. For floating week owner in the old resorts if you want to exchange outside of your resort you cancel the reservation you have for your resort and then enter the points into the system. For owners in the new resorts, the points are there for you to use in your home resort during your preference period or with the club at other resort after the owner preference system has expired. 

I see no reason why Marriott can't do the same thing. The question will be how to allocate the  points. Hilton established the Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze periods which were based on demand periods for each resort area and assigned the same number of points to all units within the Platinum periods, etc. When Marriott  bought American Resorts (the Monarch) they later changed to the the floating week system from the fixed week system. 

I had a fixed summer week at Shell Island on Sanibel when I joined the HGVC. I have since never exchanged outside of the club.  I think the system works well. I have more difficulty exchanging my Marriott weeks than the HGVC weeks.


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## JimC (Aug 2, 2006)

Disney's point system has seasons with varying points.  Points also vary for size of accomodation and some views as well as resort to resort differences.  Friday and Saturday nights also carry significant premiums over other nights -- mostly to discourage locals from booking all of the weekends and leaving everyone else with awkward five night stays.

Members may book from one night to as many nights as they have points.  Points may be banked to the next year and borrowed from the next year, with certain restrictions.

A four month booking advantage at your "home" resort is the prime reason to purchase at a particular resort.  There are no "trading" fees within the DVC resort system.  Maintenance fees and reserves are resort specific.

Their points system is deeded but has an expiration date.

The flexibility of this system is a great selling tool.  And like Marriott, the brand does a good job of selling the reliability and quality of the product and service.

The big difference is that check-ins are permitted any day of the week.  So the front desk and housekeeping operation levels are more consistent day to day.

Marriott certainly has plenty of other points systems to study in creating theirs.


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