# New Marriott Timeshares



## elleryjean (Feb 25, 2012)

Does anyone have or know about the list of properties that Marriott is suppose to be buying or building in the future?  We were at the Maui presentation last week and were shown a list of new properties Marriott was going to purchase or build for the vacation club points program.  Unfortunately we did not get a copy, there were at least thirty properties on the list.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 25, 2012)

From past experience with timeshare sales presentations.......don't hold your breath. There's a lot of stuff presented but very little ever turns out to be reality. Until they either break ground or sign the paperwork, it's all just a pipe dream.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 25, 2012)

My guess is that they will complete existing properties before they even think about making new acquisitions. They still have to build out at Harbour Lake, Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, Oceana Palms, Kauai Lagoons and Grand Chateau. Some of those are already in the final build out stage; Oceana Palms and Kauai Lagoons.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 25, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> My guess is that they will complete existing properties before they even think about making new acquisitions. They still have to build out at Harbour Lake, Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, Oceana Palms, Kauai Lagoons and Grand Chateau. Some of those are already in the final build out stage; Oceana Palms and Kauai Lagoons.



There's also Willow Ridge Lodge, which only has three buildings built. The main part of the complex is supposed to have either five or six buildings. There was a second phase that was going to have a few more buildings but, I doubt those ever see a spade of dirt turned. I look for MVC to maybe build two more buildings but wouldn't be surprised if the resort is considered complete as it stands now.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 25, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> There's also Willow Ridge Lodge, which only has three buildings built. The main part of the complex is supposed to have either five or six buildings. There was a second phase that was going to have a few more buildings but, I doubt those ever see a spade of dirt turned. I look for MVC to maybe build two more buildings but wouldn't be surprised if the resort is considered complete as it stands now.



Thinking of Doral, there were also a few additional buildings planned. Though I think they may now consider that resort complete. Of course now that where actual resorts are no longer matters in DC, they can add units anywhere and add points to the system. So they could always resume building at Doral.


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## SueDonJ (Feb 26, 2012)

elleryjean, I think your post is the first that's mentioned an actual list out there that the sales reps are using, but others have heard similar things about Marriott adding future properties that will only be available with DC Trust Points.  Here's the latest thread -> Destination Club Points Question

If that list does surface again, we TUGgers would love to get our eyes on it!


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## Davey54321 (Feb 26, 2012)

*Presentation at Manor club...*

FYI we just returned from Manor club and did a presentation there where the salesman mentioned MVCI would be breaking ground on (or buying? Not sure which) resorts in Atlanta, Puerto Rico and Wisconsin Dells ...

None of these made much sense to me beyond Puerto Rico, which I questioned, since Hyatt has a property there...He said the new Marriott property would not be too far from the Hyatt...

Got a strong pitch to buy enough DC points to get us to Premiere, but managed to resist (doing fine with what we have); saw this thread and thought I'd share what we heard though, for what it's worth...


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## gblotter (Feb 26, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> My guess is that they will complete existing properties before they even think about making new acquisitions. They still have to build out at Harbour Lake, Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, Oceana Palms, Kauai Lagoons and Grand Chateau. Some of those are already in the final build out stage; Oceana Palms and Kauai Lagoons.


Add Ko'Olina to that list as well.  There is an additional tower on the master plan that is still yet to be built.


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## Big Matt (Feb 26, 2012)

I think there will be a much better chance of Marriott buying existing projects either underway or completed and putting the Marriott brand on them.  There's no chance they are going to buy a lot of land and speculate given the economy.

I could also see them acquiring another brand entirely (Disney, Hyatt???)


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## m61376 (Feb 26, 2012)

I wonder what ever happened to their property in Cancun. Before the recession, that was slated to be the next project.

I too think it will be a long, long time before we see any new building. Right now they can sell points to sell-out all those mud weeks that weren't otherwise selling, and that should sustain them until the economy improves. I think real estate development in today's market will be on hold for the foreseeable future and, like others posted, Marriott will look to buy or combine with other ventures.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 26, 2012)

m61376 said:


> I wonder what ever happened to their property in Cancun. Before the recession, that was slated to be the next project.



The plan for it was to sell the land, that was the plan for all other undeveloped properties.


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## SpikeMauler (Feb 26, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> My guess is that they will complete existing properties before they even think about making new acquisitions. They still have to build out at Harbour Lake, Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, Oceana Palms, Kauai Lagoons and Grand Chateau. Some of those are already in the final build out stage; Oceana Palms and Kauai Lagoons.



Add Frenchman's Cove too...


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## Cobra1950 (Feb 26, 2012)

I agree with the comment they will finish out existing properties first as* A*. they own the land and have the staff there to manage it already and* B*. As reported at Ko Olina, the MFs on the existing properties with potential of being expanded are rising quickly perhaps to help cover the costs of the additional units maintenance and management.
   Also, if the detailed data were readily available, I would guess Marriott is more frequently excercising ROFR on selected developments to regain HOA voting control in those projects.  They are able to buy back units likely far below the cost to build new ones and then could get the HOAs (if they are in voting control) to spread the costs for renovations back among all the development owners, not just Marriott, making the legacy owners subsidize the plan whether or not they joined the points program or not 
   Interesting financial situation but leaving legacy owners who have not signed on to the latest points program wondering what happened to the old Marriott?


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## SueDonJ (Feb 26, 2012)

Davey54321 said:


> FYI we just returned from Manor club and did a presentation there where the salesman mentioned MVCI would be breaking ground on (or buying? Not sure which) resorts in Atlanta, Puerto Rico and Wisconsin Dells ...
> 
> None of these made much sense to me beyond Puerto Rico, which I questioned, since Hyatt has a property there...He said the new Marriott property would not be too far from the Hyatt...
> 
> Got a strong pitch to buy enough DC points to get us to Premiere, but managed to resist (doing fine with what we have); saw this thread and thought I'd share what we heard though, for what it's worth...



It's worth a great deal - a whole lot of what we've learned about the DC came from piecing together all the snippets of info that many people shared on TUG.  Thanks for pitching in.   

******
I vaguely remember comments that execs made in different phone conversations back when the DC was first rolled out, about how the set-up with the Trust, Exchange Company and Collections partners would allow Marriott to develop new options in non-traditional sites.  Spaces in existing hotels could be refurbed to resemble timeshare units for DC Points use, existing stand-alone structures could be brought into the fold, mutually-beneficial partnerships could be formed with industry competitors, and yes, even new multi-building resorts could eventually be built from the ground up.  It seemed any- and everything would be on the table depending on which way the wind blew.  I think it's pretty exciting if the rumblings we're hearing now are signaling the beginning stages of those sorts of expansion.  It bears close watching, and maybe we'll be disappointed to find that DC Trust Members have an advantage over DC Exchange Members in any such expansion, but at least it will be a sign that Marriott is successfully navigating the precarious timeshare market that exists everywhere today.  IMO, our ownerships are most threatened if Marriott is unable to change or expand its product to meet the changed timeshare landscape.


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## ilene13 (Feb 26, 2012)

Davey54321 said:


> FYI we just returned from Manor club and did a presentation there where the salesman mentioned MVCI would be breaking ground on (or buying? Not sure which) resorts in Atlanta, Puerto Rico and Wisconsin Dells ...
> 
> None of these made much sense to me beyond Puerto Rico, which I questioned, since Hyatt has a property there...He said the new Marriott property would not be too far from the Hyatt...
> 
> Got a strong pitch to buy enough DC points to get us to Premiere, but managed to resist (doing fine with what we have); saw this thread and thought I'd share what we heard though, for what it's worth...



The Hyatt property is where on site where the Hyatt Cerromar used to be.  The timeshare shared the resort amenities.  Now that the Cerromar and the Dorado Beach resorts are no more it is alone.  Supposedly the two resorts are going to eventually be reopened under new ownership but who knows.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 26, 2012)

Of course the question really should be  "Where in the world would Marriott see a viable business case to build or buy more TS resorts?"

My answer to that would be NOT in those parts of the world where costs are high and the economies are still down - such as The USA and Europe.

My answer would be Asia. Asian economies may not be booming but they are certainly doing better than Europe and the USA. So I would be looking to places such as Indonesia, The Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and even China. 

Why? 

A growing middle class Asian population with the urge and money to travel. 

Also the traditional model of TS weeks has moved onto a points based system and Marriott is now positioned to sell that model in Asia (in fact it has been doing so for 4 or 5 years with the MVCI Asia Pacific Club points system). MVCI found that their weeks based resort in Thailand sold much better to Europeans, Americans and Australians and less so to the Asian Market where a full week vacation is less common and where long weekends are more popular. So the points system was delivered to a growing Asian customer base

What Marriott needs to do is to integrate the two points based systems, incorporate the European resorts and deliver a consistent global product with broad appeal to the growing Asian market. 

So why not a new resort in Bali or perhaps Macau on the Chinese mainland.


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## GregT (Feb 26, 2012)

MALC9990 said:


> Of course the question really should be  "Where in the world would Marriott see a viable business case to build or buy more TS resorts?"
> 
> My answer to that would be NOT in those parts of the world where costs are high and the economies are still down - such as The USA and Europe.
> 
> My answer would be Asia. Asian economies may not be booming but they are certainly doing better than Europe and the USA. So I would be looking to places such as Indonesia, The Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and even China.



I agree with this -- I see this with HGVC where they are definitely expanding, most significantly in Hawaii which is very attractive to the Asian customer.  When we were at HHV last week, many employees are (or speak) Japanese  and their sales force is heavily Japanese.   Walking through Waikiki shopping, you can tell who is spending money.    My wife and I went into a shop to look at shoes (which we didn't buy because they were ridiculously expensive) and the place was packed -- as we were leaving I heard the (Asian) manager speaking to the security guard and telling him that if the guard needed a translator to come find the manager.  

I found it a very encouraging trip because there was such a strong pulse both at HHV and in Waikiki.   And I agree with MALC that they should find a way to tap into this growing market.

Best,

Greg


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## EducatedConsumer (Feb 26, 2012)

Rhetoric, absolute rhetoric..........

If "future destinations" are not officially announced by Marriott (or whoever this new company is), and reduced to writing by Marriott Headquarters, I'd not believe one inference made by a salesman. Real estate Developers deal with the smoke that some salespeople create by putting language in Purchase and Sales Agreements that say that the Developer is not responsible for any representations made by agents or associates of their company, other than those made in "this (written) contract."

And, if or when the time comes that this new company does decide to expand, I'd not be the least bit surprised if they depart from Marriott Vacation Club's old model of "building resorts (which take a lot of time and capital (and debt))" to a new model of acquiring a few condominiums/rooms at a particular location, and referring to the five or ten new condominiums that they acquired (? rented, ? purchased) as MVC's newest of locations. A strategy of this type, would allow MVC to demonstrate that they are making overtures to expand, would build the "sales enthusiasm" that Marriott Vacation Club (predecessor company to the new company) was famous for creating, it would put "pins on the map," to demonstrate "further vastness" of their network, and in particular, Marriott would not have to wait years to conceive and build-out a resort, nor would they incur the expense or debt in doing so.

There was a time when Marriott Vacation Club used to have maps in their sales centers with lights that light up of current and "future" locations. I've not seen any such representations by this new company, or since the economy and timeshare business tanked (which pre-dates the new company). 

PS Time and time again Marriott salespeople have been reported here of making representations that are not known to or authorized by their Corporate Headquarters. If there is an Official List, that's great news for Marriott and their points owners (I wouldn't put it past Marriott to "lock out" their legacy product owners from new inventory, and for using "access to the new inventory" to force legacy owners to add points to their Marriott timeshare portfolio.




Davey54321 said:


> FYI we just returned from Manor club and did a presentation there where the salesman mentioned MVCI would be breaking ground on (or buying? Not sure which) resorts in Atlanta, Puerto Rico and Wisconsin Dells ...
> 
> None of these made much sense to me beyond Puerto Rico, which I questioned, since Hyatt has a property there...He said the new Marriott property would not be too far from the Hyatt...
> 
> Got a strong pitch to buy enough DC points to get us to Premiere, but managed to resist (doing fine with what we have); saw this thread and thought I'd share what we heard though, for what it's worth...


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## thinze3 (Feb 26, 2012)

I would think KoOlina would be first since the new Naia building is constructed but only half built out on the interior.  It would not cost much money to put many valuable units into the DC trust. Each 2BR week would be worth over 5K in trust points.

Basically, $2.5M value (5K pts x $10 x 52) for each 2BR they finish out.

What does it cost to build out a 2BR unit in Hawaii? $150K??


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## slum808 (Feb 26, 2012)

Greg,

I completely agree. The Asian market is a gold mind for Marriott, HGVC, and hopefully DVC. Unlike the US, these contries have a growing middle class. Both the State of Hawaii and the City and County of Honolulu have spent a  significant amount of resources in trying to boost the level of Asian tourist comming to Hawaii. Their efforts are finally starting to show an uptick in not only number of people comming to Hawaii, but the amount each person spends. Their two main targets are mainland China and South Korea. These efforts include negotiating new flights from these areas into Hawaii, and reduced red tape to get a Visa, or Visa waiver. 

Although things seem to be going well right now, I hope the government doesn't shoot it self in the foot by the continuous raising of taxes and fees assessed to our visitors.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 26, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> I would think KoOlina would be first since the new Naia building is constructed but only half built out on the interior.  It would not cost much money to put many valuable units into the DC trust. Each 2BR week would be worth over 5K in trust points.
> 
> Basically, $2.5M yearly value (5K pts x $10 x 52) for each 2BR they finish out.
> 
> What does it cost to build out a 2BR unit in Hawaii? $150K??



I forgot about Ko'Olina. I think there is also a fourth building that was initially planned but not yet started?


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## EKniager (Feb 27, 2012)

I've seen the state of the economy mentioned a couple times here so I thought I'd add my two cents.  Certainly our current unemployment levels are higher than acceptable and a large number of Americans are upside-down on their mortgages but... have you checked the stock market or company balance sheets lately?  Companies have been doing well and as a management recruiter I can tell you they have been hiring for 18-20 months.  There is even a shortage of qualified candidates.  Additionally, we have been to a couple of Marriott properties recently, including a Ritz, and can tell you that it would be difficult to tell from the crowds that the economy is slow.  A certain segment of the population is having a tough time and yes many people can no longer borrow against their home equity to buy gratuitous items.  The facts are though that we have GDP growth and home sales are increasing.  I'm not proposing that the Vacation Club is going to go wild acquiring properties but they do have to plan in advance of demand.  Thus, it would not surprise me to see them make a couple of announcements to get the TS users excited again.


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## SueDonJ (Feb 27, 2012)

I think all the signs are there that things are improving for the segment of the population that you're referencing, EKniager, and I also think that the spin-off of the timeshares from under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella is going well, so far.  But in other TUG discussions about the economy we talked about the ability of MVCI and now Marriott Vacations Worldwide to take on the debt loads that were previously allowed by lenders.  It doesn't seem that things have improved to the heydays of the '90's and early 2000's in that respect.  Although, with the new DC set-up it doesn't appear, either, that MWV's success is as reliant on new resort development as MVCI's was.


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## EKniager (Feb 28, 2012)

SueDonJ, I am not sure whether you are referring to the new TS entity's ability to raise capital or secure financing or manage a higher level of debt.  They are different issues.  They are profitable however (http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/VAC/profile), $67MM in net income, so eventually after getting current debt in line and taking care of shareholders (if they choose to provide dividends), my guess would be that they will be reinvesting those profits into growth initiatives.


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## Ron98GT (Feb 28, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> My guess is that they will complete existing properties before they even think about making new acquisitions. They still have to build out at Harbour Lake, Lakeshore Reserve, Marco Island, Oceana Palms, Kauai Lagoons and Grand Chateau. Some of those are already in the final build out stage; Oceana Palms and Kauai Lagoons.



Couldn't any new buildings, yet to be built or have any units presold, be used exclusively for DC?


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## Ron98GT (Feb 28, 2012)

Davey54321 said:


> FYI we just returned from Manor club and did a presentation there where the salesman mentioned MVCI would be breaking ground on (or buying? Not sure which) resorts in Atlanta, Puerto Rico and Wisconsin Dells ...
> 
> None of these made much sense to me beyond Puerto Rico, which I questioned, since Hyatt has a property there...He said the new Marriott property would not be too far from the Hyatt...
> 
> Got a strong pitch to buy enough DC points to get us to Premiere, but managed to resist (doing fine with what we have); saw this thread and thought I'd share what we heard though, for what it's worth...



I wish Marriott and/or Hilton would build a TS in Puerto Rico


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## pwrshift (Feb 28, 2012)

Marriott lies about expansion...always has.  When I bought the brand new Marriott Beachplace Towers there was only one building up but the sales pitch at the time was the 's' on Towers meant there would be another built once the first building was sold...so buy now as the prices for building 2 will be much higher.  Never happened...it was all a sales pitch.  At the time there was a parking lot right beside BP and right up to when it was announced Starwood would build a St. Regis there, the salespeople used the 'Towers' story to sell.  Oddly, now the SR is a Ritz Carlton.

If Marriott's *DC* designation is true to the format set up by most destination clubs (most of which are now out of business) you could see Marriott buy prime time suites in already built resort areas.  That way they don't have the up front building expense and time lag to the sold out position as thats some other developer's problem.  This way, the places would not be managed entirely by Marriott but the roster of worldwide locations could easily and affordably expanded...and probably welcomed by DC members.

You'll be long retired before you see any new Marriott timeshare buildings go up IMO.

Brian


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## EducatedConsumer (Feb 28, 2012)

pwrshift said:


> Marriott lies about expansion...always has.  When I bought the brand new Marriott Beachplace Towers there was only one building up but the sales pitch at the time was the 's' on Towers meant there would be another built once the first building was sold...so buy now as the prices for building 2 will be much higher.  Never happened...it was all a sales pitch.  At the time there was a parking lot right beside BP and right up to when it was announced Starwood would build a St. Regis there, the salespeople used the 'Towers' story to sell.  Oddly, now the SR is a Ritz Carlton.
> 
> If Marriott's *DC* designation is true to the format set up by most destination clubs (most of which are now out of business) you could see Marriott buy prime time suites in already built resort areas.  That way they don't have the up front building expense and time lag to the sold out position as thats some other developer's problem.  This way, the places would not be managed entirely by Marriott but the roster of worldwide locations could easily and affordably expanded...and probably welcomed by DC members.
> 
> ...



We said the same thing, but you did it with far fewer words than me. 

I'll take a lesson from you..........



EducatedConsumer said:


> Rhetoric, absolute rhetoric..........
> 
> If "future destinations" are not officially announced by Marriott (or whoever this new company is), and reduced to writing by Marriott Headquarters, I'd not believe one inference made by a salesman. Real estate Developers deal with the smoke that some salespeople create by putting language in Purchase and Sales Agreements that say that the Developer is not responsible for any representations made by agents or associates of their company, other than those made in "this (written) contract."
> 
> ...


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## Davidr (Mar 1, 2012)

Why would Marriott build anything for 10s of millions of $$ when they could acquire an equivalent number of points by buying a few thousand $ worth of resales from ebay and dumping them into the trust?


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## normab (Mar 1, 2012)

During our presentation in December DH and I heard "New York CIty" and came away with the impression they wouldn't build new.

We also figure we will to wait and see.  Since we are not buying points, we can't reserve any new places until Marriott mixes the buckets.


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## slum808 (Mar 1, 2012)

Davidr said:


> Why would Marriott build anything for 10s of millions of $$ when they could acquire an equivalent number of points by buying a few thousand $ worth of resales from ebay and dumping them into the trust?



It's about marketing. The question is, does Marriott have the right mix of locations to attract the buyers?


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## Werner Weiss (Mar 1, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> Couldn't any new buildings, yet to be built or have any units presold, be used exclusively for DC?


Any new buildings would be owned by the Trust.

Trust owners can book DC Trust inventory directly. They also have access to inventory in the DC exchange pool (including inventory from enrolled owners who have opted for points).

Enrolled owners can book weeks at their home resorts directly. They also have access to inventory in the DC exchange pool (including Trust inventory that's been transferred there to facilitate exchanges).

So while it's true that "any new buildings would be used exclusively for DC," that does not mean enrolled owners will never have access to them.


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## Ron98GT (Mar 2, 2012)

Werner Weiss said:


> Any new buildings would be owned by the Trust.
> 
> Trust owners can book DC Trust inventory directly. They also have access to inventory in the DC exchange pool (including inventory from enrolled owners who have opted for points).
> 
> ...



I'm a new Marriott "Weeks" owner so excuse my stupitity.  When you state "Trust", I assume points owners can only use trust points not weeks owners?  From previous discussions, it sounds like trust points are Marriott points/weeks that only DC/Points owners could possibly use, but are not guaranteed?

Does "enrolled" owners include "weeks" owners, or are we still talking about points?

i wish Marriott would have used a points system similar to HGVC's.


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## Werner Weiss (Mar 2, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> I'm a new Marriott "Weeks" owner so excuse my stupitity.  When you state "Trust", I assume points owners can only use trust points not weeks owners?  From previous discussions, it sounds like trust points are Marriott points/weeks that only DC/Points owners could possibly use, but are not guaranteed?
> 
> Does "enrolled" owners include "weeks" owners, or are we still talking about points?
> 
> i wish Marriott would have used a points system similar to HGVC's.



If you're a new owner of a week at a Marriott timeshare resort, I assume that means you bought a floating week on the resale market. That means you can stay at your resort during your season. Or, if you join Interval International (II), you can exchange (for a fee) your booked week for a week at another II-affiliated resort (Marriott or non-Marriott), based on availability and II's unpublished metrics for a "comparable" week. Or you can do private exchanges or exchanges through smaller exchange companies. But you can't exchange through Marriott's Destinations Club (DC) exchange program.

Marriott allows "weeks" owners who bought from Marriott to enroll (for a fee) in the DC program. Also, for a limited time, Marriott allowed "resale weeks" owners to enroll (for a higher fee), but not any more. Enrolled owners can use their weeks the same way you can, but have the added option of opting for DC points in years when they choose to do so.

Technically, there are two kind of DC points (Trust points and exchange points), but Marriott seems to be trying hard to make the points work the same way.

When Marriott switched what they were selling from weeks to points, they faced the difficult challenge of building the points program on top of the weeks program. Companies that started on Day One as points programs (such as Disney Vacation Club) do not have to serve various kinds of owners who bought different products but still want access to the full portfolio of resorts from that brand.


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