# How to Deal with a son & DIL that will not spend any holiday with you?



## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

My oldest son, my daughter-in-law (DIL), and my grandson have never spent one holiday with me and his siblings.  

My DIL has stated that she really only wants to spend every holiday with her family and that if we want them over for Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve or Christmas Day that we can connect up before or after the holiday but those days are reserved always for her family. 

This is causing a huge conflict in my family. Both Grandmas have decided that since their grandson treats them With no respect they are only giving him a small money gift.  

My DIL supplied me via text an Amazon gift list that contained over 3K of gifts for the 3 of them (son, grandson and her). I asked her if we bought something off the list would everyone know that she sent this list to and her response was this list is only for you and your side of the family.  

I’m kinda done with this nonsense, we can never spend time with them but we are the first to receive the call for money for rent, food, diapers, college loans etc.  

They have offered to come over on December 23 and she said it would be just like Christmas Eve. I have not responded but my other son and daughter are telling me to tell them no, it’s unfair to me to have to cook 3 big holiday meals in a row. 

What would you guys do?


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## Luanne (Dec 10, 2017)

Well first of all, I really feel for you.  We have not been put into this position because my daughter and sil (who live in another state) decided early on they would split the holidays.  They either spend Thanksgiving or Christmas with us, and the other holiday is spent with his family.  They don't have children, so that doesn't play into the mix.  Also, the other relatives are spread out.

Now, from what I've read on "Dear Annie" this situation comes up a lot.  I recently read a letter from a women who had a similar situation. What she decided to do instead of letting it tear her up, was to plan a family get together somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas, where the family could celebrate the holidays.  It seemed to be working for them.  It might not work for everyone.

What my family did growing up was to have three Christmas celebrations, and they were all with my mother's family as my dad's family lived in Indiana.  We would have one get-together sometime in December with all of the aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents.  Then on Christmas Eve we'd go to my grandparents, and in later years they'd come to our house.  My mom's aunt and uncle would come also.  We were the only one of the aunts, uncles and cousins who lived close enough to my grandparents.  We'd open gifts from them on that night.  Christmas Day was just our family.  We kept that up after I married and had my own family.  We're not close enough to do the Christmas Eve thing with my parents, although for quite a few years my parents would come up and spend Christmas with us.  But Christmas Day is definitely for the family.  We don't travel anywhere.


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## folashade (Dec 10, 2017)

I feel for you. It's up to your son to have nipped this in the bud and it seems like he hasn't. If you want to see them on the 23rd I would not go out of my way to cook or do anything special and would order takeout explaining its too much of a hassle to cook a large meal outside of the established date.

As for the 3K in gifts. Again I would send what I was comfortable sending. Expecting one side to supply 3K worth of gifts and you get no holidays at all is absurd. 

One thing we do is on some years my SIL's parents and sister join us for our holiday celebrations either xmas or thanksgiving since her parents live in TN. I would not personally do a comprise holiday given the complete inflexibility of the DIL. It's rude and selfish


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## klpca (Dec 10, 2017)

I feel for you too. But in way of a suggestion, we have done Thanksgiving over the weekend previous to the Thursday and it was just fine. So maybe carve out a different day. That's not how it *should* be but your DIL sounds like she's not going to be reasonable. Don't even get me started on the extravagant shopping lists.


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## Iggyearl (Dec 10, 2017)

I don't mean to be harsh - but where the heck is your son in this discussion?  It sounds like the DIL wears the pants in the house.  Our daughter asks us to rotate Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with our SIL's parents.  Works fine.  You are getting the short end of the stick, and you have a right to complain.  Fair is fair.  And a gift "wish list" should be just that.  Pick some items for each relative, and spend what you feel comfortable with.

You sound like a responsible and kind-hearted soul.  That may not get you the best results in this situation.  Make yourself and your feelings heard, and you may get a compromise to your DIL's selfishness.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

We tried doing a different day last year, we picked December 10 in 2016 to celebrate with our family.  We selected this date in August of 2016 and they both told me that this day would work for them. I asked my son if there was a special activity that they wanted to do and he stated that my grandson wanted to go to Holiday Nights. It's a wonderful event that allows you to stroll over 4 miles of a Christmas Experience. It's a wonderful event that allows you to strap on a pair of ice skates, send a shout-out to Santa and his reindeer, and nestle into a horse-drawn wagon for a sing-along through Greenfield Village.

I spent the money to buy tickets for everyone and on December 9th they called to say they could not make it and we could reschedule to January...

I like the idea of doing take-out and just keeping it simple, I spend $100 per kid and that is what I will purchase off their amazon wish list and be done with it...I'm very angry at my son because as my other son states to me on a regular basis mom, that boy has to grow some balls and tell is wife that he has a family and he would like to spend one holiday with them.


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## Luanne (Dec 10, 2017)

When I read the part about the gift list maybe I didn't understand.  We always ask our daughters for a list.  But we don't expect to get them everything on it, it's just ideas of things they would like.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 10, 2017)

I think you should be happy you raised 2 great kids out of the 3 you carried to term.

Have your holiday without sending gifts or gift cards to them. Give to the kids if you see them on their birthday, a package in Birthday paper. Post Facebook pictures of your other 2 kids & families sharing your Christmas holidays with you. Let their siblings GUILT the crap out of them. Peer pressure is VERY EFFECTIVE.

As for Facebook .. it can be used as a double edge sword. You CAN POST pictures of your Christmas day with your attending family members ... no negative comments. If someone asks, just say, "It was in the in-law's Christmas year". 

If your son tolerates this behavior, just ignore it. Invite them and if they CHOOSE/MAKE other plans, so be it. I would NOT do 2 Christmas celebrations nor give expensive presents to kids who KNOW NOT this set of grandparents (you guys). This spouse is self-centered and immature; it is all about her. 

Meanwhile, pick out a holiday your son and family WILL ATTEND ... like July 4th. Have a cookout and go to a fireworks show. Or plan timeshare trip within driving distance for a long weekend. ... if they cancel after accepting, they would be OFF my list to plan & expend money, time and energy on for SPECIAL ACTIVITES. If they ask about any trip you are planning with other family members, just outline the expenses and ASK FOR PAYMENT in advance before reserving anything. If they actually pay and attend, give them a VISA gift card at the start of the trip.

Once burned, shame on them. Twice burned, SHAME ON YOU.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

Iggyearl said:


> I don't mean to be harsh - but where the heck is your son in this discussion?  It sounds like the DIL wears the pants in the house.  Our daughter asks us to rotate Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with our SIL's parents.  Works fine.  You are getting the short end of the stick, and you have a right to complain.  Fair is fair.  And a gift "wish list" should be just that.  Pick some items for each relative, and spend what you feel comfortable with.
> 
> You sound like a responsible and kind-hearted soul.  That may not get you the best results in this situation.  Make yourself and your feelings heard, and you may get a compromise to your DIL's selfishness.



My son has become a shell of the person he used to be since he married my DIL.  She wears the pants in the family, no doubt about that and she belittles him in front of us, telling him what he did not do or what he should so, it's so sad...I blame my son for not standing up for himself and his family. If he wants nothing to do with his family going forward then so be it, but don't come to me to be your bank.

I just found out moments ago that he told his brother (my middle son) that his wife told him to quit his job and she just did they same thing and they are moving in with her parents to save money for a house. I guess they have to be out of their apartment by December 23rd.  So I'm feeling that it's very likely they will cancel again this year...

My other children are not going to re-arrange their schedule to come over the 23, as they have already committed to coming over on the 24th and I don't blame them.


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## Luanne (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I just found out moments ago that he told his brother (my middle son) that his wife told him to quit his job and she just did they same thing and they are moving in with her parents to save money for a house. I guess they have to be out of their apartment by December 23rd.  So I'm feeling that it's very likely they will cancel again this year...


I don't mean to take us in a whole other direction, but what the heck?  They are quitting their jobs and expect to save money?


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## Talent312 (Dec 10, 2017)

DW says that you should set a date + time for a family gathering and tell them:
They must be present to receive a git. No show = no gift. Its their choice.

I say: Get your son a tool belt from Home Depot and your DIL some bath soap.
For the grandkid: Start a college fund (a mutual fund under the Gift to Minors Act).
Then book a Caribbean cruise for the holidays. Tell the kids that they're on their own.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 10, 2017)

Unemployment. ACA medical insurance. Food stamps. Heating assistance. HUD apartment. Free cell phones (another welfare benefit).

Cut them loose.


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## Tia (Dec 10, 2017)

Difficult all around. The DIL sounds emotionally abusive.



Sugarcubesea said:


> My son has become a shell of the person he used to be since he married my DIL.  She wears the pants in the family, no doubt about that and she belittles him in front of us, telling him what he did not do or what he should so, it's so sad...I blame my son for not standing up for himself and his family. If he wants nothing to do with his family going forward then so be it, but don't come to me to be your bank.
> 
> I just found out moments ago that he told his brother (my middle son) that his wife told him to quit his job and she just did they same thing and they are moving in with her parents to save money for a house. ............
> 
> .


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## WinniWoman (Dec 10, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> I would get your son a tool belt from Home Depot and your DIL a lump of coal.
> I'd also book a Caribbean cruise for the holidays and tell the kids that they're on their own.




I would go with this suggestion. I would schedule vacations at every XMAS and ignore them altogether. I feel for you, but you are not some doormat to be treated like-well, you know....

I would tell them in no uncertain terms that because they do not want to spend any holidays with you you will be away during the holidays from now on. Even if you do not go away, tell them you are. Do not send any gifts, either. Ignore her stupid lists. 

Or, just invite your other kids and don't invite them any longer. If the other kids cannot attend sometimes or invite YOU to their place, that's your cue for a vacation.

I find it just appalling that they have no respect for you.You are not just a parent, you are a human being. 

I have relatives with a single son who is like this. He is visibly absent from every family gathering. No one talks about him anymore- it is like he doesn't exist. A sad reality.


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## RonB (Dec 10, 2017)

Set your dates, invite them, and if they don't come it's their problem. I know this will be hard on you, but you have to live your own life. You can't "rescue" your son - he has reclaim his gonads from his wife's pocketbook on his own. I would send a modest gift to your grandson because he has no say in any of this.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

Luanne said:


> When I read the part about the gift list maybe I didn't understand.  We always ask our daughters for a list.  But we don't expect to get them everything on it, it's just ideas of things they would like.



I have no issue's with lists, but prior to my DIL marrying my son she sent me an email that said it was her dream to get married at Disney World and would we contribute 35K, so she could get married there.  I told her our budget was to give each child $10K for their weddings and we would also host and pay for the rehearsal dinner. She told me that since I could only contribute such a small amount we could only invite 20 people. 

This gal is all about the money.  When my grandmother died and I inherited the house, she stated to me that she would like to live there and she would pay us $100 a month rent.  I explained that I had to sell the house and use it to pay off my grandmother's final bills. 

She had a wedding with 320 individuals in attendance at a total cost of $35K and 4 days before the wedding the reception venue called me, (I had made my contribution directly to the hall/venue, so they had my contact info) to state that the bride's family did NOT make their last payment of 10K and would I come in and make the payment as they had already told the brides side of the family and they stated they did not have the funds but would pay her after the wedding with the money gifts they would be receiving.  

The reception venue told the bride and her family that if the monies were not paid the reception could not take place. The reception venue told me that she told the bride to reduce some of her expensive trappings, like, Bridal Room, champagne toast for all guests, ice sculptures, LED up-lighting, monogram lighting, and signature cocktail. She told me if the bride agreed to not have all of these extras, she could bring the final amount down to $2K and the bride told her to just call me and I would pay the amount... I told the reception venue that I had paid all I was going to pay if the reception could not take place so be it... I called my son and told him the reception venue called me and that I was not paying any additional monies and that they suggested that his bride reduce some of her extra trappings that were very expensive. He said she did not want to do that, so I suggested that he announce after the wedding ceremony at church that the reception has been cancelled so people do not drive all the way out there for nothing. He said don't worry we will figure it out... I guess she ended up borrowing money from her grandparents and she ended up not having all of those extras as the grandmother told me she only gave her $2K.


This has been this gal's way of doing things since the beginning...


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> I think you should be happy you raised 2 great kids out of the 3 you carried to term.
> 
> Have your holiday without sending gifts or gift cards to them. Give to the kids if you see them on their birthday, a package in Birthday paper. Post Facebook pictures of your other 2 kids & families sharing your Christmas holidays with you. Let their siblings GUILT the crap out of them. Peer pressure is VERY EFFECTIVE.
> 
> ...



This is brilliant and you're right, I'm blessed I have 2 great kids out of the 3.


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## VacationForever (Dec 10, 2017)

Cut them lose.  In life you have the good and the bad.  I would just send them an invitation each year in mail for holiday gatterings, with RSVP.  Keep it formal so that you don't get heartache after heartache in trying to negotiate and you still come out losing.


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## Tia (Dec 10, 2017)

Extremely manipulative person this DIL. Try to maintain contact with your son as best you can as he needs your support, sorry.



Sugarcubesea said:


> I have no issue's with lists, but prior to my DIL marrying my son she sent me an email that said it was her dream to get married at Disney World and would we contribute 35K, so she could get married there.  I told her our budget was to give each child $10K for their weddings and we would also host and pay for the rehearsal dinner. She told me that since I could only contribute such a small amount we could only invite 20 people.
> 
> This gal is all about the money.  When my grandmother died and I inherited the house, she stated to me that she would like to live there and she would pay us $100 a month rent.  I explained that I had to sell the house and use it to pay off my grandmother's final bills.
> 
> ...


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## klpca (Dec 10, 2017)

Your DIL is a trainwreck. I feel sorry for you. I agree with the poster above who said she is emotionally abusive. Such a shame.

But nothing is going to change. Like others have said, time to cut him loose. Let him know that he is always welcome, but set your boundaries and stick with them.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 10, 2017)

The only control you have in this, is what you WANT do or give to them. Read up on co-dependence personalities (that might be YOU). 

I learned the most important thing is for YOU to decide WHAT YOU want to do. If asked for something, take at least 48 hours to think ... 
1) Do you REALLY want to do this? 
2) Can I REALLY afford to do this?
3) Do I really have the TIME to do this?
4) Am I fair to my other adult kids and those grandchildren?
5) What does my spouse think?
TAKE TIME (48 hours or more) TO ANSWER ALL REQUESTS or DEMANDS .. even the SIMPLE ONES. Train them to you saying "YES or NO" only. If they can't present a request clear and simple, THEY need to rethink their request to YOU. Life is too short for us OLD PEOPLE to listen to them whine and doing a "spin cycle" on WHY you should be giving them something (like your money).

I learned YEARS ago ...* to have a single phrase* to cut demanding & controlling jerks off at the knees. Pick a phrase to REPEAT OVER and OVER AGAIN. One unchanging answer/phrase til THEY HANG UP ON YOU. As they hang up on you .. they are pissed off at you ... like little kids, they will pout about NOT getting their way. You just took back control, IMHO.

My phrase is:
*"No, I am not going to do that."*

Usually, it takes 10 or 20 times repeating this ONE PHRASE over and over again before they hang up. After they learned you are NOT GOING TO CHANGE your answer, they will hang up after you saying your pet phrase ONCE or TWICE. 

And don't offer any middle ground ... they are the ISSUE. It is your money and time. They are ADULTs. You are the elder ... do not give in. If they really are all grown up ... they will accept your answer. And learn to ask for reasonable things and not totally outlandish demands.

I did something similar to a 4yo nephew ... *"NO"* was the ONLY answer. Sometimes , it was "*Noooooooo!*" along with me shaking my head and my eyebrows raised (that sort of scared him into thinking I was really pissed --- he stopped asking). I think that is WHY that child listens to what I say, is happy being around me and secure with me.,,even as a 17yo high school senior. And he expects nothing from me  ... no trips, no money, no favors. But he always sit next to me at meal time.


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## Passepartout (Dec 10, 2017)

WOW! Just Wow! Be thankful you have 2 great kids. Send gifts to all YOUR children and of course the son of the dysfunctional family. The situation it not his fault. Pull your son away privately, and tell him that functional families alternate holidays, and share. When/if he grows a set it will be an improvement. Until then get solace in knowing that he is the one that made the choice. Make sure he knows you love him, but will not be his bank. You cannot support his immature actions.

You don't deserve to be treated this way.

We see signs of spousal abuse going on and both these young people need counseling. There is a likelihood that the abuse will become physical. Watch for signs.

Best wishes!

Jim


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

Luanne said:


> I don't mean to take us in a whole other direction, but what the heck?  They are quitting their jobs and expect to save money?


I’m just shocked. I guess they are going to look for jobs after the holidays and just have her parents pay for their living expenses. 

It’s so sad and I wish I knew a way to not blow up and just tell them how much their behavior has hurt me the past 7 years.


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## bizaro86 (Dec 10, 2017)

I don't have any advice, and just want to say I'm sorry for your loss. My children are younger, but I can't imagine how hard it would be to lose one of them in this way. I hope you can find a solution that works for your family.


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## VacationForever (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m just shocked. I guess they are going to look for jobs after the holidays and just have her parents pay for their living expenses.
> 
> It’s so sad and I wish I knew a way to not blow up and just tell them how much their behavior has hurt me the past 7 years.


You have to stop the hurt and the only way to do so is to protect yourself now.  Your son is not stupid but he has to grow up and fend for himself in an abusive relationship.  Your grandson has bad role models and he is also growing up to be dysfunctional, and if I understand correctly, he is disrespectful of his grandparents.  If you can sum up your feelings well, you may want to make one final attempt to speak with him directly (on the phone?) about how you feel, and certainly without her presence.  Enough is enough.  

A dear close friend of ours, who past away this March, had 2 sons who refused to be in the same room with one another.  I know the full story but so as not to get into the details...  She was driving 2.5 hrs every Christmas Day to see her older son, until one year she decided to stop doing so.  All her voicemails and snail mails to him were one-way communications.  She was distraught that her eldest son chose to cut out of any relationship with his brother and also blamed his mother for what had conspired between the siblings.  She really wanted her 2 sons to get along.  We repeatedly told her to let their relationships be and not let herself be vulnerable to more hurt.  Well, a year ago, her elder son said he found god, and came back into their lives.  No one really knows what happened and why.  When she was dying, she was at peace as her wish had been for the brothers to get along and be on speaking terms.

So one never really knows if and when someone will change and be a better person.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> You have to stop the hurt and the only way to do so is to protect yourself now.  Your son is not stupid but he has to grow up and fend for himself in an abusive relationship.  Your grandson has bad role models and he is also growing up to be dysfunctional, and if I understand correctly, he is disrespectful of his grandparents.  If you can sum up your feelings well, you may want to make one final attempt to speak with him directly (on the phone?) about how you feel, and certainly without her presence.  Enough is enough.
> 
> A dear close friend of ours, who past away this March, had 2 sons who refused to be in the same room with one another.  I know the full story but so as not to get into the details...  She was driving 2.5 hrs every Christmas Day to see her older son, until one year she decided to stop doing so.  All her voicemails and snail mails to him were one-way communications.  She was distraught that her eldest son chose to cut out of any relationship with his brother and also blamed his mother for what had conspired between the siblings.  She really wanted her 2 sons to get along.  We repeatedly told her to let their relationships be and not let herself be vulnerable to more hurt.  Well, a year ago, her elder son said he found god, and came back into their lives.  No one really knows what happened and why.  When she was dying, she was at peace as her wish had been for the brothers to get along and be on speaking terms.
> 
> So one never really knows if and when someone will change and be a better person.


Actually, my grandson is very sweet and comes running into my arms whenever he sees me. He always tells me how much he misses me and it breaks my heart that I’m not able to spend more time with him.


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## rapmarks (Dec 10, 2017)

My son and family has never spent a holiday with us.  They visit us in Florida for one week, I pay for the plane tickets.  When we stayed two nights at their home we were very uncomfortable.  I have never spoken on the phone with my daughter in law.  When they visit her parents in the summer, we are allotted two days.  They do not stay at our house, but stay at a hotel.  On the second day she stays at the motel, and comes over late in the day.  They have one child and she doesn't work, but intends to get her phd when he goes to first grade. She has worked on two masters degrees during their marriage, in non job producing fields.  We are extremely generous with them and with our daughter.  my son tries to call us every week and skype with his son, but she never appears in the picture or room.


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## VacationForever (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Actually, my grandson is very sweet and comes running into my arms whenever he sees me. He always tells me how much he misses me and it breaks my heart that I’m not able to spend more time with him.


Great!  He deserves a nice present from you from the list!


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## Bailey#1 (Dec 10, 2017)

There's an old Irish saying, A son is a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for the rest of your life! I guess this is true for you. It is sad
but it sounds like there is a lot of truth to this for many others as well.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

rapmarks said:


> My son and family has never spent a holiday with us.  They visit us in Florida for one week, I pay for the plane tickets.  When we stayed two nights at their home we were very uncomfortable.  I have never spoken on the phone with her.  When they visit her parents in the summer, we are allotted two days.  They do not stay at our house, but stay at a hotel.  On the second day she stays at the motel, and comes over late in the day.  They have one child and she doesn't work, but intends to get her phd when he goes to first grade. She has worked on two masters degrees during their marriage, in non job producing fields.  We are extremely generous with them and with our daughter.my son tries to call us every week and skype with his son, but she never appears in the picture or room.


I’m so sorry you are going through the same thing I’m going through. I always made sure on every holiday that we took turns between my parents and my in laws. I have always treated my in laws with love and I loved spending time with them.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 10, 2017)

Bailey#1 said:


> There's an old Irish saying, A son is a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for the rest of your life! I guess this is true for you. It is sad
> but it sounds like there is a lot of truth to this for many others as well.


I had never heard that saying and I’m sad that it’s like this for others


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## merriot (Dec 10, 2017)

Call your son and ask him to meet you for breakfast or lunch someplace quiet where you can talk.  I'd write down my thoughts before the meeting...that way you can be objective and stay on track...hopefully he will understand  the hurt her insensitivity has caused  you, your grandson and son himself. Wasn't it Shakespeare that said a child's ungratefulness is sharper than a serpent's tooth. 
 As we get older, love of family or friends is the most important sustaining factor in life.   I very much understand how you feel.


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## rapmarks (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m so sorry you are going through the same thing I’m going through. I always made sure on every holiday that we took turns between my parents and my in laws. I have always treated my in laws with love and I loved spending time with them.


My in laws were too busy for us, they had so many friends and spent holidays with them. They would allo dec 23 for us to host them for Christmas.   After they moved away, they came back home three times.  The first time they spent time with us, the kids were three and seven.  The next time we were only allowed one hour as they had lots of friends to see too.  The third time, they never told us they were there and did not visit us. They did not visit his son either.   We found out after they got sick that they had been out.    After they got sick, they had no friends, and they expected us to quit our jobs and move out and take care of them.  We spent many years taking care of my mother in law after her second husband died.


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## DeniseM (Dec 10, 2017)

I don't think you are going to change anything, and if you some how coerce your DIL into coming to a family event, she will be unpleasant and probably spoil the event.  You cannot change her attitude, and you are making yourself miserable trying to.

I would send the grandchild a nice gift, and send the adults modest gift cards, and then just let it go and enjoy your holidays.  This is a "wisdom to know what you cannot change" situation.



> They have offered to come over on December 23 and she said it would be just like Christmas Eve. I have not responded but my other son and daughter are telling me to tell them no, it’s unfair to me to have to cook 3 big holiday meals in a row.



If you really want to see them, you should do Dec. 23rd.  I would not cook a big dinner.  I would do appetizers and drinks, with the idea that if they don't show up, you can use the food on the other days.


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## Iggyearl (Dec 10, 2017)

Thank you for starting this thread.  I know it must be therapeutic for you and it has been eye-opening for the rest of us.  Just goes to prove that "Leave It to Beaver,"  "Father Knows Best," "My Three Sons" were all mirages from a glorified TV world.  There are no perfect families (maybe just a few).   If I could make one recommendation (from personal experience) please don't give away money that will affect your lifestyle.  Live for yourself and your immediate family.  You can't save the world by being generous.

My brother - in his infinite wisdom - once gave $5,000 to a couple who belonged to their church.  The couple used the money, then declared bankruptcy.  His donation was wasted.  Today, my brother is divorced and could not write a check for $1,000.


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## r1lee (Dec 10, 2017)

Bailey#1 said:


> There's an old Irish saying, A son is a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for the rest of your life! I guess this is true for you. It is sad
> but it sounds like there is a lot of truth to this for many others as well.



This is well known, even in Asian culture. 

I would just cut them out.  I have no time for stupidity.  I’m not saying this from the outside, i have cut off my mom for her own stupidly while still communicating with my dad.  I dont go out of my way to see my mom, if she wants to see me and her grandkids then she can arrange the time.


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## jehb2 (Dec 10, 2017)

As for the gifts...My MIL is the sweetest, kindest, really awesome MIL.  She also knows that her kids and grandkids already have a lot.  So there is this charity you you can pick from a list (10 chickens to a 3rd world family, etc. ). She selects multiple gifts in the names of each of her children & grandchildren .  We all like it, especially my kids (They really love the gift of chickens).

I suggest this is the gift you give your son, DIL, and grandchild.  Make a donation in their name to the charity of their choice.  Your DIL will probably hate it.  But I sense she'll dislike whatever you give.  At least this present won't go to waste.  And this present is what Christmas is all about. Not choosing from an Amazon list containing $3K worth of merchandise.


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## DeniseM (Dec 10, 2017)

Let me just say that I had the opposite problem with my (former) MIL.  She never hosted any holidays, and sometimes ruined ours.  

I remember one Christmas Eve where she showed up and looked at my complete Christmas dinner, china and crystal on the table and said, "I hope you didn't go to any trouble - we stopped and got a hamburger on the way over."


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## Patri (Dec 10, 2017)

Oh Sugar, you and I could trade stories. How old are the two? It seems like it is always the female who causes these problems. My son, quite young, fell into a similar trap but adored his wife. For a few years we truly felt we lost him, but I insisted that the family keep the doors open. My other kids were so mad at him. Now the divorce is almost final, he is getting joint custody, and our son is BACK. We are all close again. Do not give up hope.


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## jehb2 (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> This has been this gal's way of doing things since the beginning...



Okay, this story explains it all.  You'll never be able to change this this person or this situation.  You and your other 2 kids can get together every year as planned.  Once you finalize the date invite the other son and his family.  Will they ever come? No.  But chances are he'll eventually divorce this woman and realize that his family was always there for him.

My brother was married to an evil woman for 10 years.  We didn't get to see much of him during that time.  He came to my wedding but she wouldn't (thank goodness). Eventually they divorced.  And ever since then he's has never missed a major family function, and he lives out of state.


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## rapmarks (Dec 10, 2017)

I would not agree with cutting them off.  My husband's brother cut off contact with his mother, grandmother, and us for twenty years, because of dislike of her second husband.  That was my husband's only relative.  In 1999, I sent him a message that we were going to be in Phoenix for a week, if they were interested in meeting us for dinner.  Since then the two brothers talk on the phone Sometimes for hours, and he has met my daughter, but has never seen my son.  It means so much to my husband to have his brother back.


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## bogey21 (Dec 10, 2017)

RonB said:


> Set your dates, invite them, and if they don't come it's their problem. I know this will be hard on you, but you have to live your own life. You can't "rescue" your son - he has reclaim his gonads from his wife's pocketbook on his own. I would send a modest gift to your grandson because he has no say in any of this.



Close to my thinking.  I have nothing to do with my kids over the holidays (or birthdays for that matter).  I give them no gifts and rarely see them on either of these days.   Terrible, you say.  Let me explain.  When my kids were in their early teens we discussed this.  I told them there would be no inheritance when I die and no presents on birthdays, Xmas, etc.  I also told them I would pay for all their education, buy them each their first car, pay for their travel on mission trips, sports tournaments they participate in, etc.

What I do in lieu of birthday, Xmas gifts, etc. is pick out things throughout the year to help them with while I am alive.  I have made many car payments, insurance payments, house payments, DIL's student loan payments, etc at times of my choosing without  being asked.  I also have set up and contribute to 529 accounts for their kids' education.  All on my own volition.  The truth is they have never asked me for anything and expect nothing when I die.

There is no question in my mind that they appreciate what I do for them and don't miss not seeing me on Xmas, Birthdays, etc. and are comfortable not receiving Birthday or Xmas gifts from me.  I am there for them when they need me. Because of my age they have chosen to call and make sure I am OK almost every day.

George


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 10, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m just shocked. I guess they are going to look for jobs after the holidays and just have her parents pay for their living expenses.
> 
> It’s so sad and I wish I knew a way to not blow up and just tell them how much their behavior has hurt me the past 7 years.



No jobs? Living with her parents? THEY are not saving money ... they are broke and not working. 

This young couple has issues ... drugs, drinking, gambling, co-dependence, personality disorders, lazy ass disease, etc. Both lost their jobs around the same time? Did they get arrested? Change the locks on your house and get a monitor home security system. And create a secure, locked room at your home. My bet is DRUGS (heroin). Entertain them on neutral ground, like the Olive Garden where they can order drinks.

Change the locks on your house, get a monitor home security system and KEEP them OUT of your home ... before jewelry disappears, check books vanish and they learn the neighbor's schedules. They are broke.

PS. Most county court houses have records of evictions and foreclosures ... might go research those public records were they USED to live.


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## Jan M. (Dec 10, 2017)

You said this has been going on for 7 years so that tells me they are old enough to know that their behavior is unacceptable. Hopefully eventually your son will wake up and leave this spoiled selfish girl child. In the meantime make sure he knows that he and your grandchild are welcome in your home. I wouldn't specifically say that the DIL from hell isn't welcome, I would just not ever mention her in any invitations. My assessment of her is that there isn't much chance of her ever becoming a better person.

About them quitting their jobs around the holidays when they have a child and expecting everyone else to provide for them. This is so appalling that words fail me. 

At some point during the holiday season can you arrange to have your grandson for a few hours so you could take him shopping to pick out what he would like for Christmas and afterwards maybe go to someplace he likes to eat? He would get to take the presents home with him. It would be a very unusual child that wouldn't love to do this with the grandparent(s). I wouldn't give your DIL a thing. I would tell your son that you have a gift for him at your house if he is able to find even a half an hour to come get it on one of the days the rest of the family will be there celebrating. If he can't manage that then I would tell him that you are sorry that he wasn't able to take advantage of the opportunity to receive the gift. I would keep the gift small, say no more than $25-$30, in a gift certificate or cash that you can use for yourselves if he doesn't show up.

I wouldn't place a further burden on your son by telling him how much all this has hurt you. He knows. I would be willing to bet your other two kids have let him know what they think of the situation. 

I have a SIL who taught me the phrase that someone else posted. First time shame on you; second time, shame on me. Focus on going forward. Think about what all of us have said, decide on a course of action and stick to it. You can't change someone else, you can only change yourself and how you deal with them.


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## VacationForever (Dec 10, 2017)

I have assumed that they live some distance away.... but that is "ass u me".  If they live close by, then it is so much easier to set up meeting your grandson and hang out together.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 10, 2017)

Go look up "The Serenity Prayer" on google. Is a standard in AA meetings. Attend a few AlAnon meetings or NarcAnon meetings ...  understand WHAT a co-dependent is (that is what YOU are becoming). Consult a lawyer about getting custody of your grandchild. If you are providing all cost for your grandchild to live in YOUR HOME, get custody and the tax deductions ... plus where is this child current medical coverage? Welfare (medicaid card?), food stamps? rental assistance? Homeless Prevention programs? 

In my state, if you allow anyone to stay in your home ... and you ask them to leave and they REFUSE, you have to evict them. In State Superior Court .. and you have to have a reason. As I think to myself about some tenants, "Make my day .. don't pay YOUR rent!" .. as that is the quickest, fastest and easiest way to REMOVE anyone from your house. Prepay for a week at a fleabag motel .. that would cost you WAY less than a lawyer for eviction court action ... and your daughter can get a FREE LEGAL AID LAWYER to fight your lawyer on any Eviction Action. And yes, this has gotten to be a regular feature in my local eviction court ... parents on the landlord side of the courtroom trying to remove their adult child from their home ... with a $200+/hour lawyer .. for cause (as most parents have no written rental contract with their adult child)... usually having to get several police reports and filed criminal charges with convictions or witnesses to violent/threaten acts against the parents. And then the parents discover jewelry missing and other valuable possessions missing... as do the neighbors.


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## DaveNV (Dec 10, 2017)

I have two kids.  My daughter, the younger of the two, learned all the right lessons, and she has been a model citizen all her life.  I could not be more proud of her.  Her brother is 16 months older, and for reasons I'm still not sure about, has been nothing but a pain since he was a teenager.  Problem after problem, failure after failure, trouble after trouble, arrest after arrest, and none of it, of course, was *ever* his fault.  (Yeah, right.)  He's now in his 40s, and is nearly homeless. He stopped coming to me several years ago when I told him I was not a bank, and that I was tired of him only asking me for things - usually money.  When I told him there would be no more money, he stopped coming around.  I guess he's trying to teach me a lesson.  Not sure.  It took me a long time, but I learned there is no shame in telling an adult No.  He knows I love him, but it is not my responsibility to make his life work. He's on his own, as far as I'm concerned.  Maybe I'm trying to teach HIM the lesson.  But it is what it is.

My advice to you is to stand your ground.  If you want a family gathering for the holiday, tell the collective family that your gathering will be on a certain day and time.  Everyone is invited to attend, and if they don't show up, well, that's their loss. Tell them your grandchild's gifts will be waiting at your house.  Don't send anything to your son or DIL, regardless.  Make them come and ask for it.  

If you want to play Devil's Advocate, when they do come over, take your son aside privately, and ask him how long this charade of an abusive marriage is going to last.  That should be grounds for a spirited discussion. On the other hand, he may be looking for a way out, and might just need someone in his court.  It's a thought.

Good luck.  I know it's painful.  

Dave


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## clifffaith (Dec 10, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> No jobs? Living with her parents? THEY are not saving money ... they are broke and not working.
> 
> This young couple has issues ... drugs, drinking, gambling, co-dependence, personality disorders, lazy ass disease, etc. Both lost their jobs around the same time? Did they get arrested? Change the locks on your house and get a monitor home security system. And create a secure, locked room at your home. My bet is DRUGS (heroin). Entertain them on neutral ground, like the Olive Garden where they can order drinks.
> 
> ...



Yikes, much scarier scenario than I thought, but you may be right. My thought is the DIL wants to get herself and the child under her parents' roof and the tell sonny boy to take a hike.


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## Panina (Dec 11, 2017)

My opinion is your son is in an abusive relationship.  You cannot change that only he can.  As a parent you can try to meet him alone once in awhile, ask him, maybe for breakfast or lunch.  Just let him know your door will be open for him if he ever needs to come home alone.  He probably is aware that there are problems with his wife but being he has a son he  is trying to make the best of it.  

As far as gifts, I would ask your son to speak to your grandson on the phone.  I would let your grandson know that from now on you will be putting money into a college fund for him and in addition getting him $100 dollar gift for his birthday and Christmas and he should let you know what he wants.  If you buy expensive gifts for your grandson you dil could return them to the stores for money. I would tell your son instead of buying gifts for you and your wife I am putting the money in a college fund for my grandson.

I would also ask you son if he can arrange every few weeks to spend an afternoon or weekend with your grandson even if he just drops him off. Keep asking, say I understand you and your wife are busy and it's important to me to spend more time with my grandson.

You will not change you dil, she is self centered.  Your son will only change if he decides he had enough, nothing you say will make him change his mind.

There is hope, I have witnessed it.  Just realize the more you say dil is wrong, the more your son will defend her to prove to you everything is ok.


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## geist1223 (Dec 11, 2017)

Had something similar problems but minor in comparison from opposite side. During our first trip home (I was in USMC) my MIL complained that we did not spend 1/2 of our time with them. My parent were divorced. MIL thought it should be 1/4, 1/4, and 1/2. We didn't do that but it was not 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. My inlaws got the biggest share. So before we came home from a tour in Europe we sent a letter in advance that said Richard (my Dad) would pick us up at the Airport and we would spent from w to x with Richard, then we would spend x to y with Katie (my Mom), then y to z with Don and Joyce ( my inlaws). That we would do partial days visits with others while staying with one person/group. We said that if anyone did not like the schedule please let us know and we would be happy to remove them from the schedule. Everyone decide mthe schedule sounded mighty fine.

Also when we lived in the area we let everyone know that Thanksgiving belong to Katie, that Easter belonged to Don and Joyce, and New Year's belonged to Richard. That Christmas belonged to us at our home and no one was to show up uninvited.

I agree with all the advice that the parents should go on with their lives and plans. Hopefully some day their Son grows a pair.


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## Talent312 (Dec 11, 2017)

When my DW complains about someone who's mistreated her, I tell her:
"You cannot make someone be a better person, or even the person they should be.
They are not going to turn a new leaf. All you can do is deal with them as they are.
... But that doesn't mean allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat, either."


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## PrairieGirl (Dec 11, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> If he wants nothing to do with his family going forward then so be it, but don't come to me to be your bank



First of all, I also feel for you.  But regarding the above, YOU are totally in control of whether you are his bank or not.


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## PrairieGirl (Dec 11, 2017)

[QUOTE="Sugarcubesea, post: 2079569, member: I guess she ended up borrowing money from her grandparents and she ended up not having all of those extras as the grandmother told me she only gave her $2K.  This has been this gal's way of doing things since the beginning...[/QUOTE]

Am I reading between the lines that you did not attend the wedding? Otherwise you would KNOW if she had all those extras or not!

It sounds like a very difficult situation and I wish you strength in dealing with it.


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## uop1497 (Dec 11, 2017)

I have not been in your position yet , but very close to it . I understand your feeling because I am loosing a son now . He just engage to his girl friend a few months ago. My son is changing and his acting is like a stranger to us and I feel that his girl friend is in control totally  . 

I am very sad at the moment because he told my husband that he will spend the Xmas and new year with his fiancee's family. As soon as I heard it from my husband, I know that thing will get worse after they are married.

Reading your post make me realize I am not alone. The son I used to know is gone forever . I feel that I should accept my fate and move on, but it is really hard to overcome the feeling of abandon by my son.

Fortunately, I still have my DH by my side who gives me his fully support to overcome difficult time during the holiday


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## Jan M. (Dec 11, 2017)

PrairieGirl said:


> First of all, I also feel for you.  But regarding the above, YOU are totally in control of whether you are his bank or not.



They may actually be doing their son a favor by closing the bank. When the DIL finds out that no matter how hard she pushes/punishes their son to go to his parents for financial help that the bank is staying closed, his usefulness to her may come to a screeching halt. Keeping in mind that since she is clearly bold and ill mannered enough to come directly to our TUG friend with her demands and lists I would expect her to disrupt the family holiday with a confrontation or snit when she isn't getting her way. So for everyone else's sake I would avoid that unpleasantness and not pressure him into attending family events for the time being. It would be better to just say we would love it if you and ...(the grandson) could come over sometime during the holidays.

BTW the very first year we were married we invited my husband's whole family to our apartment for an evening before Christmas even though we were invited to his Mother's for Christmas dinner. My husband is one of 5 kids and his two older brothers had 5 kids between them so there was no way that 14 people could sit down to eat a full meal at the kitchen table in our apartment. So the invitation was for after dinner and we served appetizers/snacks, Christmas cookies and beverages. We never showed up at a family gathering with my husband's family without bringing a dish or dessert I'd made, never just chips or pop/soda. Two years later we had a house and started taking turns hosting the various family holidays and events. I was no older than this DIL. My Mother died when I was 14 so I had no one to advise me how to go on, but it was important to me that my husband was proud of me and he truly appreciated my efforts. Yes I was nervous and God knows I was shy, but when you are old enough to be considered an adult you figure it out and fake it til you make it. LOL!


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## Jan M. (Dec 11, 2017)

uop1497 said:


> I have not been in your position yet , but very close to it . I understand your feeling because I am loosing a son now . He just engage to his girl friend a few months ago. My son is changing and his acting is like a stranger to us and I feel that his girl friend is in control totally  .
> 
> I am very sad at the moment because he told my husband that he will spend the Xmas and new year with his fiancee's family. As soon as I heard it from my husband, I know that thing will get worse after they are married.
> 
> ...



Our son is an only child and I've been where you are with the girl our son might have married. My advise to you is no matter what it takes or how much you are hurt don't complain to your son or make demands. Be warm and welcoming to her whenever you are together. Never make it feel like a competition for him, to yourself or her. Invite her parents to come also when you invite your son and her. Sometimes the boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse has difficulty expanding their comfort zone to include new people or what is unfamiliar to them. This is especially the case at holidays. Force yourself to be flexible and ask them when they can come to see you for the holidays. Get her number from your son and call or text her to say how happy you will be to see them both and ask if there are any foods she is allergic too or really dislikes. Say you are thinking of making something other than the traditional holiday meal as everyone will have either already had enough of it or will be having it. Ask her for some ideas. Who knows you may even start a new tradition. Keep the calls short but find other little things to call or text her about from time to time. When you talk to your son ask about her job, school, activities, interests. If she has something good happen at work for instance that may not be that big a deal but is important to her, send her a text congratulating or complimenting her. Make connections. The more she communicates with you the more comfortable she will become.

We could have been in a similar situation with the person our son did marry but I was determined that wouldn't happen. Our DIL is a very independent middle child and was truly at a loss to understand our son's closeness with us. We made it clear that her loving our son gained her a place in our affections. They have been together for 11 years, married 7 and we have a far closer relationship with our DIL than I ever imagined. Our son calls one of us most days, usually while he is in the car but sometimes when he is at home and one of his daughters does or says something cute, funny or even sometimes naughty. He will be on speaker phone and our DIL always joins in the conversation. We both get texts and pictures from her to keep us from going into granddaughter withdrawal as I put it. Recently our older granddaughter did something when they were at a restaurant eating that our DIL told our son that he had to call us right then to tell us about it.

If you are nothing but warm and welcoming, show interest in her as a person, and never make her feel criticized then her failing to respond in kind shows a lack of generosity of spirit. Typically people who lack generosity of spirit show it in other ways and the marriages often fail in time.


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## WinniWoman (Dec 11, 2017)

My parents were old world italians and in our culture when you marry someone you marry the family. When my brother married, his wife, who is from a very large family, did not embrace this to say the least.

She never addressed my parents by either their names, not by calling them mom or dad, not by calling them Mr. or Mrs.- nothing. This hurt my parents tremendously. They also kept their distance as much as possible. They did take turns on holiday visiting between her family and ours, but they would arrive late and leave early. In fact, they would call to see when my own family would be there so they would make sure they didn't arrive before us as to not have to be alone with my parents. It was all way too obvious.

In addition, once they had a child, they kept her at distance from them as much as possible, as compared with our son who spent a lot of time with them. They even did not tell them or even me or my aunts when their child received her Confirmation- a big event with Catholic Italians.  And I was her Godmother! My mom, hurt and baffled as she was, promptly sent a check when she found out, but I didn't. I felt if it was not important enough to tell me about it, never mind invite me to it, then it didn't warrant a check.

All this hurt my parents badly to the point that they began to get very angry, but they never showed or expressed this to my brother so as to not ruin their relationship with him or his relationship with her.

Our son is still single and sometimes I think maybe we are kind of lucky since it seems this is how women are these days, but then I know it would be nice for him to have a companion and hope she would be warm and embrace family.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

jehb2 said:


> Okay, this story explains it all.  You'll never be able to change this this person or this situation.  You and your other 2 kids can get together every year as planned.  Once you finalize the date invite the other son and his family.  Will they ever come? No.  But chances are he'll eventually divorce this woman and realize that his family was always there for him.
> 
> My brother was married to an evil woman for 10 years.  We didn't get to see much of him during that time.  He came to my wedding but she wouldn't (thank goodness). Eventually they divorced.  And ever since then he's has never missed a major family function, and he lives out of state.



I don't think I want to cut my son off but I no longer want to be a doormat. We will plan our festivities for Christmas Eve next year, and invite them and if they can not, I'm not going to try and squeeze another event into December, I will just move it into January.  You're right she is never going to change and I want my son to know I'm there for him but will no longer be treated as a doormat and a bank.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

r1lee said:


> This is well known, even in Asian culture.
> 
> I would just cut them out.  I have no time for stupidity.  I’m not saying this from the outside, i have cut off my mom for her own stupidly while still communicating with my dad.  I dont go out of my way to see my mom, if she wants to see me and her grandkids then she can arrange the time.


Gosh, I must be out of the loop as I've never head of it before, but it rings true....


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

Patri said:


> Oh Sugar, you and I could trade stories. How old are the two? It seems like it is always the female who causes these problems. My son, quite young, fell into a similar trap but adored his wife. For a few years we truly felt we lost him, but I insisted that the family keep the doors open. My other kids were so mad at him. Now the divorce is almost final, he is getting joint custody, and our son is BACK. We are all close again. Do not give up hope.


My son is 28 and she is 27


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## tompalm (Dec 11, 2017)

Our son is an only child and we have not seen his wife since the wedding over two years ago. She only wants my son to spend time with her family and makes trouble when my son spends a few hours visiting us. But we still meet him for coffee or dinner about once a month when he is on his way home from work.  The wife is always invited, but she never shows up. That is fine with us, we are done with her. Our only goal at this point is to maintain a loving relationship with our son. We told him he needs to leave her and move out of their house for a few weeks and let her see how it feels to be all alone and maybe she will change her ways. He will not do that, so at this point, we see him for a couple hours at a dinner around Christmas, or my birthday or wife’s birthday and occasionally at other times. We have accepted the situation and do not want to cause him any stress in his marriage. Unfortunately, we have friends in Memphis and Atlanta that have the same issue with their DIL and they are not able to see the grandkids. I am glad our son didn’t have children, it would make the situation more difficult.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> No jobs? Living with her parents? THEY are not saving money ... they are broke and not working.
> 
> This young couple has issues ... drugs, drinking, gambling, co-dependence, personality disorders, lazy ass disease, etc. Both lost their jobs around the same time? Did they get arrested? Change the locks on your house and get a monitor home security system. And create a secure, locked room at your home. My bet is DRUGS (heroin). Entertain them on neutral ground, like the Olive Garden where they can order drinks.
> 
> ...


They are not on drugs, my son worked a job that was on the midnight shift from 10:00pm till 7:00am, so that they could avoid babysitting fees for their son. She worked a daytime job as an marketing manager.  They do have lazy ass disease. Part of the problem is when they needed money and I said no they went back to school so that they could take out more student loans. They used student loans to buy her engagement ring. My son told me he has $85K in loans and she has $90K in loans. They live 2 hours away from us and I think because the place they lived was mostly a college town, they wanted to move to the area that they grew up in.  However, they should have found jobs before both of them quitting their jobs and moving in with her parents...UGH


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> You said this has been going on for 7 years so that tells me they are old enough to know that their behavior is unacceptable. Hopefully eventually your son will wake up and leave this spoiled selfish girl child. In the meantime make sure he knows that he and your grandchild are welcome in your home. I wouldn't specifically say that the DIL from hell isn't welcome, I would just not ever mention her in any invitations. My assessment of her is that there isn't much chance of her ever becoming a better person.
> 
> About them quitting their jobs around the holidays when they have a child and expecting everyone else to provide for them. This is so appalling that words fail me.
> 
> ...


They started dating when my son was 18 and moved in together at age 20, thank you for the kind words, this has been tearing me up for the past month as this holiday season approaches..


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## AnnaS (Dec 11, 2017)

Sorry this is happening to you.  Your DIL is definitely a piece of cake.  It will only get worse.  Don't be their bank or give in to her demands.  Do what you want, when you want but not to please her.  Stay close to your son/grandson as much as you "can" and let him how you feel and your actions are because of her.  Unfortunately many men cannot stand up to their wives or fight for their parents.  I have witnessed this.   I will say my mother-in-law recently died with a broken heart.  She did not deserve it - no matter how much she tried to please two of the DILs, try to keep the peace between the sons and wives,  try to buy them with $$ - nothing worked.


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## rapmarks (Dec 11, 2017)

Since we moved to Florida, we spend most of the holidays alone.  We do fine.  The sad times were when we had to fly to my husband's mother every year when our children were in high school and college because she was alone and as teachers this was the only time we could go.  It was so lonely there, thinking of our family back home.
If your son is happy, let it be.  My daughter is a vegetarian and was engaged and living in South Dakota.  His family would do nothing special for her for holidays so she prepared dishes.  The mother wouldn't put them out she said there is enough, so my daughter would eat mashed potatoes for holiday dinner.  She married someone else and that family was really weird and they never got around to eating til about midnight.  She is almost divorced now, but that family really ganged up on her when he was drunken and abusive.  So just hope your son is happy, and they both mature a bit.


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## Jan M. (Dec 11, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> They started dating when my son was 18 and moved in together at age 20, thank you for the kind words, this has been tearing me up for the past month as this holiday season approaches..



They have been together for 10 years since he was 18. She is all he knows and all too often men will stay in a far less than ideal relationship rather than be alone. When men are widowed they often remarry very quickly as they don't do well being alone.

I was just thinking that I would bet there are far more women who refuse to go or go grudgingly to their in-laws than there are men who refuse to go to her family. Men learn to suck it up and go along with what she wants. Happy wife, happy life. It becomes a habit/way of life even when that life isn't particularly happy.

I managed a movie theater for nine years until we moved to Florida in 2010. On Friday and Saturday nights, date nights, if we had a chick flick, a guy/action movie and a general appeal movie all playing, guess which movie most couples saw? Yup, the chick flick. Come on ladies, at least choose the general appeal movie. Ladies you have friends, sisters, female cousins, etc. that you can see the chick flicks with, why make the poor guy suffer? It was rare to see the women going to the guy/action movies. My husband used to say there is another reason I consider myself a very lucky man!

The girl our son dated in high school had him jumping if he even thought she might be going to say frog. He took it very hard when she broke up with him after he went away to college but we breathed a sigh of relief. She wasn't about to spend her senior year of high school without a boyfriend on hand to dance attendance on her. My husband and I didn't know each other as teenagers and I remember asking him if he would ever have put up with that from any girl. No way that day was never going to dawn. LOL! Seeing our son so dominated bothered him more than it did me and it bothered me a lot. On Mother's Day of his senior year I had given myself the day off and was really looking forward to doing something special. Our son went to Church that morning with her family and didn't come home until bedtime even though he knew I had the day off. Mid afternoon when he called to say wasn't coming home because she would get mad if he left, I went into the bedroom to cry so my husband wouldn't see. My husband is content for me to run things because he knows I take what he would like, his opinions and his feelings into consideration. He has very, very rarely ever laid down the law but when he does it's epic! If he had seen a single tear that would done it for him. I've always been glad our son learned his lesson even if it was the hard way. He and his wife have a good marriage. I've told told our son that is one more way he takes after me as he knows I was married for five years and divorced before I met his Father and have always said I needed one to learn on and one to keep.


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## glenmore (Dec 11, 2017)

We are very fortunate to have a wonderful daughter-in-law

Our family celebration was always Christmas Eve-which worked out well for both our son and daughter as they could then spend Christmas Day with their families and in-laws

It was still hectic for them that way so last year I suggested we have our Christmas a week early. That gave them “family” time on their own as well as with in-laws

This year we aimed for December 9th but weather was bad so we went to our backup date of December 16th. We all had these dates on our calendar 

I realize your DIL doesn’t add anything positive but if she is not a complete spoiler-you would have holiday time with your son and grandson on another date.


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## elleny76 (Dec 11, 2017)

IMO...

(1)Any day your family can visit you ..Its a Holiday!    Get 2 dates on the calendar every year and invited everyone so this way "All" can be together.
(2)  About the cooking for Dec 23rd."dont cook" go to a restaurant of your choice buy the  plates done and then come home and put them in your own dishes_plates and put some seasoning _decoration of your taste.  Get a nice cake and drinks and everyone else can bring a plate _something to share. Having fun with the family anytime is what is important.
(3) If you are  rich then Its ok $3k list_ gifts since you can afford them and made them happy  and to keep the peace between the family.... OR....  you gift each adult $100 inside a card and get whatever your grandson wants as a gift (He s the only one who should get a super cool gift)
(4) If you and the rest of the family dislike them because of all this "holidays with the other family" + All your DIL do and Don't ever want to see them again then ..Its easier Just tell them no one is available on the 12/23. End of the story. ( I don't know how really the story goes since I have no heard the other side of the story but its your choice) 





Good luck






Sugarcubesea said:


> My oldest son, my daughter-in-law (DIL), and my grandson have never spent one holiday with me and his siblings.
> 
> My DIL has stated that she really only wants to spend every holiday with her family and that if we want them over for Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve or Christmas Day that we can connect up before or after the holiday but those days are reserved always for her family.
> 
> ...


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## lizap (Dec 11, 2017)

Unfortunately, I have seen this sort of thing more than I'd like. I agree with someone who said your son needs to grow a pair. It's hard to coordinate family time between both sides, but in a healthy relationship that's what needs to be done.  We divided our holiday time almost equally between both sets of parents; of course, the fact that they both lived in the same town really helped.  We have two nephews who almost never see their mom. I blame their wives, but really it's their fault for not pushing the point. Getting married does not mean that a man has to divorce his parents, and my guess is that if the wife insists on this, there will likely be marital problems at some point.


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## jlp879 (Dec 11, 2017)

I am so sorry you are experiencing this. Your DIL is an emotional abuser because her focus is on “I” and what can you do for me, always.  Even though she is married to your son, they are not truly a couple because mutuality and equality are absent from the relationship. 

I have a daughter who is a manipulator and  user.  I found Al Anon tremendously helpful in learning how to deal with her and to set boundaries in our relationship.  Though my daughter isn’t an addict, the manipulation that is present with addicts is something I needed help with.  As with any drug or alcohol abuse, treat the situation like she has a disease.  There has to be some compassion present because she is a sick person. 

Here is what I have learned from my two years in Al Anon:

Don’t hate the addict, hate the disease.

Don’t hate the person, hate the behaviour.

If it is hard to watch it, imagine how hard it is live it. 


Learn and practice detachment, which is removing yourself from someone else’s outcome.  Detachment isn’t selfish, it’s caring for yourself and letting others care for themselves.

Trust your intuition.  You don’t need to explain or justify your feelings to anyone.

“No” is a complete sentence.

If your son quits his job and asks for monetary help, try detachment.  It may sound like this: “You’re young, smart and resourceful.  I’m sure you can figure something out.”  Then walk away. 

Through pain comes growth.  It sounds like they both have some growing to do.  I can highly recommend Melody Beattie’s book _Codependent No More_.

Christmas is just another chance for DIL to use you.  She expects you to hold a separate, special dinner because Christmas is reserved for her family?  Maybe try, “sorry we’ll miss you this Christmas, hopefully, we’ll get to see you next Christmas”.  Christmas gifts only come on Christmas, so if they don’t show up, then neither do the gifts.  You can give your grandson a gift the next time you see him.

All said, you still need to try to have a cordial relationship with DIL.  Listen politely and very carefully to what she says, and then go and do exactly as you please.   Come to terms with this: she may not be the daughter-in-law you dreamed of, but she is the daughter-in-law that you _have._ Choose to have whatever relationship is possible with her, for the sake of keeping contact with your son and grandson.  If your DIL sees you cannot be ruffled, she'll have to change her act and smarten up over time. Put the grandson and son first and be as lovely as you can, leaving the venting for friends or your hubby.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> When my DW complains about someone who's mistreated her, I tell her:
> "You cannot make someone be a better person, or even the person they should be.
> They are not going to turn a new leaf. All you can do is deal with them as they are.
> ... But that doesn't mean allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat, either."



Thank you, your right until my son decides he wants to spend time with his family there is nothing I can do... I'm not going to be a doormat any further... I'm saving like crazy for retirement and I'm not going to allow my son and DIL to derail my goals. I told the kids early on that our Christmas Limit was a $100 in cash per kid and one small gift (under $50) that they could open.  My other children have been fine with this.  Perhaps as another poster stated she gave me the $3K list not expecting to receive everthing on the list, and the good news is I will stay within my budget and give what I had planned to give...


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## VacationForever (Dec 11, 2017)

What has not been mentioned is whether you have thought through how much of all of these problems are attributed to your son vs. DIL?  We KNOW she is a huge part of the problem.  But you also need to think about him as what sort of person is he?  I have only one child and I love him to death.  He has HUGE life challenges (communication learning disability).  Most of his problems are because of his disability but some of it has to do with how he handles relationships with people.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 11, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> What has not been mentioned is whether you have thought through how much of all of these problems attributed to your son vs. DIL?  We KNOW she is a huge part of the problem.  But you also need to think about him as what sort of person is he?  I have only one child and I love him to death.  He has HUGE life challenges (communication learning disability).  Most of his problems are because of his disability but some of it has to do with how he handles relationships with people.


My son does not like conflict and he has the personality that will do or say whatever someone asks of him. He stated to his grandmother that he just wants to keep the peace at home when he was explaining to her why he could not attend her 87th birthday party at a restaurant that she was paying for.


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## puppymommo (Dec 11, 2017)

My heart goes out to those of  you who are suffering due to these family situations. This discussion has given me food for thought wondering what kind of DIL my daughter, 23, will be. I think she will be a wonderful one! She is very kind and compassionate. She is in her first serious relationship and apparently the topic of marriage is being discussed. This was the first Thanksgiving since she was born that I didn't spend Thanksgiving with her. Last year she attended his family's Thanksgiving which was held the weekend before, and he joined ours on Thanksgiving day. This year they both went to his brother's who lives out of state. They invited me and I would have loved to meet his family, but I had to work. They both will graduate in May, so I will get to meet the family then. This is all new territory for me.


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## Chrispee (Dec 11, 2017)

I can't agree with the sexist rhetoric that your son should "grow a pair" or "wear the pants in the family".  Man or woman, your son is making a conscious decision that keeping the peace is more important than spending time with you.  At this point he knows you'll keep trying to make things work, so he's not forced to make any changes.  If I were in your shoes I'd do what others have suggested and just invite them over on Christmas Eve with the rest of the family.  If they don't make the effort to come, it's on them not you.  Having a grandson in the mix definitely complicates matters as you'll have to find other means to keep that relationship open.

I suspect the harsh reality is your son just doesn't care that much about visiting his family during the holidays.  It sounds like you've gone above and beyond to try to foster a relationship, but it's now time to take a step back and let things balance out?


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## rapmarks (Dec 11, 2017)

This made me think back to holidays growing up.  We always went to my fathers family, my grandma lived next door.  We loved them, but really would have enjoyed being with our cousins.  After the delicious meal, my grandma, my two aunts, my great uncle, and maybe my father , would all fall asleep.  My sisters, my mother and I would have to be quiet and we were so bored. My father never made any effort to be with my mother family.


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## lizap (Dec 11, 2017)

Chrispee said:


> I can't agree with the sexist rhetoric that your son should "grow a pair" or "wear the pants in the family".  Man or woman, your son is making a conscious decision that keeping the peace is more important than spending time with you.  At this point he knows you'll keep trying to make things work, so he's not forced to make any changes.  If I were in your shoes I'd do what others have suggested and just invite them over on Christmas Eve with the rest of the family.  If they don't make the effort to come, it's on them not you.  Having a grandson in the mix definitely complicates matters as you'll have to find other means to keep that relationship open.
> 
> I suspect the harsh reality is your son just doesn't care that much about visiting his family during the holidays.  It sounds like you've gone above and beyond to try to foster a relationship, but it's now time to take a step back and let things balance out?



If you love your parents and want to spend time with them, you should not allow your spouse to manipulate you into "divorcing" your parents. This applies to whether you are male or female. (Similarly, I can't imagine a spouse who truly loves you making this requirement.) This is especially true when you have grandchildren.  They should be given the opportunity to get to know both sets of grandparents. In this case, this is a male adult child who is not willing to stand up to his selfish wife for whatever reason. Of course, there is only so much you can do, and you have to let it go, but I think you should communicate to your son exactly how you feel. If this continues, unfortunately your son's wife's behavior is likely to lead to resentment down the road and marital problems.


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## elaine (Dec 11, 2017)

All I have to say is “what’s wrong with people?” I have not had a close rltnshp with mil for 25 years. But we certainly make time for family visits and make sure she has family for the holidays. It’s a family obligation whether you feel one or or not (which we all usually enjoy immensely) and the right thing to do for kids. Having a connection with elders is a societal good for communities. 
However, I echo another who said don’t make your son choose and don’t put him in a bad spot. 
But, I would also close the bank. Not bc they don’t visit but bc they need to stand on their own and not be further enabled. 
Advice to live by: conduct yourself with grace and dignity in times of adversity. Always strive to be proud of your behavior and response to il-behavior. Easy to say, many times hard to do. But you’ll never regret it. 
So but an appropriate gift, send your grandson lots of cards, cookies, etc from grandma and let them know they’re always welcome. Elaine


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## tompalm (Dec 11, 2017)

lizap said:


> If you love your parents and want to spend time with them, you should not allow your spouse to manipulate you into "divorcing" your parents. This applies to whether you are male or female. (Similarly, I can't imagine a spouse who truly loves you making this requirement.) This is especially true when you have grandchildren.  They should be given the opportunity to get to know both sets of grandparents. In this case, this is a male adult child who is not willing to stand up to his selfish wife for whatever reason. Of course, there is only so much you can do, and you have to let it go, but I think you should communicate to your son exactly how you feel. If this continues, unfortunately your son's wife's behavior is likely to lead to resentment down the road and marital problems.


 Getting carried away with divorcing your parents. I went away to college when I was 20 years old and only saw my parents twice a year. After that, I joined the Navy and was stationed in Hawaii while my parents were in Florida. I tried to get home once a year to see them, but that didn’t always work out. Just because you don’t see your parents or talk to them very often, doesn’t mean you don’t want anything to do with them.  Our expectations for our children might be different than what they are able to accomplish.  Sure, after I got married, I told my wife that I was going to visit my parents over the holidays or this summer and if she didn’t want to go that was fine.  That is what I expect out of my son, but when he does that, it causes great conflict and stress in his marriage. So for now, we accept the situation as it is and let him know that we love him.  Sometimes, that is all you can do.


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## lizap (Dec 11, 2017)

tompalm said:


> Getting carried away with divorcing your parents. I went away to college when I was 20 years old and only saw my parents twice a year. After that, I joined the Navy and was stationed in Hawaii while my parents were in Florida. I tried to get home once a year to see them, but that didn’t always work out. Just because you don’t see your parents or talk to them very often, doesn’t mean you don’t want anything to do with them.  Our expectations for our children might be different than what they are able to accomplish.  Sure, after I got married, I told my wife that I was going to visit my parents over the holidays or this summer and if she didn’t want to go that was fine.  That is what I expect out of my son, but when he does that, it causes great conflict and stress in his marriage. So for now, we accept the situation as it is and let him know that we love him.  Sometimes, that is all you can do.



Every situation is unique, but you should not allow your spouse to dictate the kind of relationship you and your children (their grandchildren) have with your parents. We are very blessed in that we had a great relationship with both our parents and our in-laws. We have a great relationship with our son-in-law. We have a different kind of problem - our daughter/son-in-law don't want to grow up and accept the reponsibility of adulthood, although they have two children.


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## brownhaired_girl (Dec 11, 2017)

jlp879 said:


> I am so sorry you are experiencing this. Your DIL is an emotional abuser because her focus is on “I” and what can you do for me, always.  Even though she is married to your son, they are not truly a couple because mutuality and equality are absent from the relationship.
> 
> I have a daughter who is a manipulator and  user.  I found Al Anon tremendously helpful in learning how to deal with her and to set boundaries in our relationship.  Though my daughter isn’t an addict, the manipulation that is present with addicts is something I needed help with.  As with any drug or alcohol abuse, treat the situation like she has a disease.  There has to be some compassion present because she is a sick person.
> 
> ...




This post needs a LOVE button.   Such wisdom.


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## folashade (Dec 11, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> My son does not like conflict and he has the personality that will do or say whatever someone asks of him. He stated to his grandmother that he just wants to keep the peace at home when he was explaining to her why he could not attend her 87th birthday party at a restaurant that she was paying for.





Chrispee said:


> I can't agree with the sexist rhetoric that your son should "grow a pair" or "wear the pants in the family".  Man or woman, your son is making a conscious decision that keeping the peace is more important than spending time with you.  At this point he knows you'll keep trying to make things work, so he's not forced to make any changes.  If I were in your shoes I'd do what others have suggested and just invite them over on Christmas Eve with the rest of the family.  If they don't make the effort to come, it's on them not you.  Having a grandson in the mix definitely complicates matters as you'll have to find other means to keep that relationship open.
> 
> I suspect the harsh reality is your son just doesn't care that much about visiting his family during the holidays.  It sounds like you've gone above and beyond to try to foster a relationship, but it's now time to take a step back and let things balance out?



Whether male or female I would have said to grow a pair.  But I do agree with the stepping back.

This goes beyond holidays and is truly sad. It seems like any event that involves his family is a no go. I would simply try and find a way to ensure that you spend time with your grandson outside of the holidays whenever possible. I'd leave the door open and he is always welcome but I wouldn't revolve anything around his family nor would I become a bank. The grandma situation would have been it for me but the quiting of the jobs to "save" would be the nail in the coffin for this level of insanity.


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## b2bailey (Dec 11, 2017)

This has been an emotional roller coaster just reading it, can't imagine having to live it. That being said, very few have dared to wonder...' What is she (DIL) thinking?

Any possibility she has a mental/emotional issue regarding some form of social anxiety? Could there be some religious conflict? 

I'm in the boatload that says -- do the best you can, and don't do it if it doesn't feel good in your gut. Or...' to thine own self be true'.

Don't know if you are a prayerful person, but I'd have to be asking for help daily with this one.


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## VacationForever (Dec 11, 2017)

It is going to sound harsh, but he bears alot of responsibility with the current situation.  Saying that by not showing up at family's events is because he wants to make peace at home is not good enough. 

There are many self-centered and manipulative DILs or SILs out there.  She is definitely one of them.  But he chose her, married her and stay with her, knowing what she is like.  He chose her over his family.  OP needs to accept it and shield herself from further hurt.


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## VegasBella (Dec 11, 2017)

I think you need to have a frank conversation with your son and daughter-in-law, preferably together, to talk this through. There could be reasons you haven't considered because you're looking at this from your own perspective. It doesn't seem like you're trying to see things from your son or DIL's perspectives. 

I also doubt that she expects you to buy everything on that list. I could be wrong but usually a wishlist doesn't mean you expect all of them, it's a list to choose from. The list - and the conversation you and she had about it - also suggests that they don't feel close to you. Unless you asked for a list, I suspect the list comes from a place of 'if I don't give her a list she will give us an offensive gift.' I am guessing she doesn't make a list for her family. 

Are they a different religion than you? Different political values? Different philosophical values? Maybe something happened in the past? 

Or... one of the family members who is present at these holidays has done something offensive/mean to the DIL - is it possible that they want to see you but not one/some of the rest of the family that also shows up on these holidays? And that's why they want to come on the 23rd, perhaps a day they expect that this/these other family member(s) won't be there?

Why are the specific holiday days so important to YOU? What's wrong with visiting on the 23rd? Who said you had to cook? 

Have you expressed your feelings to them? Do they know this actually hurts your feelings? Or is all this expressed passive-aggressively through stingy gift-giving etc?

Maybe it's better to simply be thankful for all you have and to try to celebrate the season with generosity, forgiveness, charity, peace...


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## Jan M. (Dec 12, 2017)

My husband's oldest brother is like your son. He goes along to get along with his wife and always has for the over 50 years they have been married. His wife is very controlling. When my MIL was alive she would ask me to go with her to visit them as they lived several states way. My job was to visit with my SIL and distract her so when my MIL took her evening walks my BIL could go with her and they could talk. My SIL would get mad if he seemed to be enjoying talking to his own mother too much and they could talk unsupervised by the SIL on the walks. My MIL liked to take walks and would let on that she was unsure about walking by herself in an area she didn't know so he had an excuse to accompany her. How pathetic is that?

On the way home from one of our trips my MIL was so upset with her oldest son's lack of backbone and tired of worrying that my SIL wouldn't allow her to see her son, their two children and her great grandchildren anymore. She was determined to cut him out of her will as she wanted his wife to get nothing. This wasn't the first time this had come up but this time I could tell she wasn't going to get over it and really meant to do it. This was the only time I ever had heated words with my MIL. My husband and his sister were the executors on her will and I flat out told her that my husband would never do that to his brother even if they had never been particularly close. She wanted me to persuade my husband to do what she wanted and I refused. I told her even if I agreed with her that it would cause him to lose respect for me if I asked him to do something against one of his family. When I got home I told my husband that I had lost my temper with his mother and what was said. He said that was fine with him if she replaced him as an executor, that I was right that he would never do anything against one of his siblings. He talked to her and she did take him off but didn't disinherit his brother.

All of us in my husband's family have taken turns being on that SIL's list. She doesn't allow her husband or kids to talk to you when you are on her list. You wait it out, in a year or two reestablish communication and know there will be a next time. When I met our nephew's wife to be for the first time I could tell that she was too strong a person to allow herself to be ruled by my SIL. My husband's other siblings and their spouses remember me joking that this DIL will never drink the Kool Aid like the rest of that family do and all agreed with my assessment. This BIL and SIL have a daughter who is older than her brother, married and had kids sooner. My SIL has always run their family from the time they started dating in high school and this niece will be 50 years old next month! Sure enough the day came when my SIL cut off all communication with their son and his family and no one else was allowed to have anything to do with them. Our nephew's two early grade school aged children were devastated that their Grandpa wouldn't see or talk to them anymore. Our nephew was hurt even more so at being abandoned by his father. The men in my husbands family are wonderful with kids and my SIL was jealous of his closeness with those grandchildren. She did this to punish their son's wife figuring the DIL would come groveling to her. That didn't happen because their son refused to allow his wife to do that as she had always been very nice to his mother just not subservient enough to his mother to suit her. I have to say that we were quite surprised when we found out our nephew stood up to his mother and very, very proud of him.

After several years of estrangement this past Spring our nephew's wife invited his parents to dinner hoping to ease her husband's hurt. My SIL and BIL went and in turn invited them for Easter dinner. However our nephew's wife said it is clear that her husband and his father will never have the close relationship they previously had. In May our nephew and his family moved to another state for him to take a new job. I got the impression he sought out the job to move himself and his family away from his parents and sister. The pain of his father's betrayal still hurts that much.

My SIL has always made sure that no one could fault her when it comes to family obligations and say she isn't a good wife. When you are on her list, she will clearly give you the frozen treatment at a family gathering but she always insisted that they come to family gatherings when they were able to, even when money was tight for them to make the trip. Her issue is that she just has to be the one in control at all times and anyone that poses a threat to her absolute control gets eliminated. I earned my current spot on her list three years ago by asking about her son and his family at a family wedding they weren't able to make the trip to attend. At the time none of us knew what was going on with their son and his family but she saw my asking after them as a threat. The nice thing about this BIL and SIL living so far away is that none of us lose any sleep over being on her list and usually never even know nor care why we are on it. Earlier this year when I found out what was going on with their son and his wife I however knew exactly what I did to earn my spot.

Because of what my BIL allowed to happen with his own son and grandchildren I have come to bitterly regret intervening on his behalf when my MIL wanted to disinherit him. My husband and his two other brothers now all know about what transpired and all feel that their oldest brother is lower than a worm to treat his own son and grandchildren like that all just to keep peace with his wife. And that their father would be ashamed of him. My husband said you don't have to be the dominate partner in a marriage to call yourself a man but a real man doesn't abandon his parents, his siblings and most especially his own child at the whim of a woman.

My point in relating all of this is that our TUG friend's son could likely stay in this relationship just like my BIL. We've been assuming that the son is unhappy. He like my BIL may not be unhappy or not unhappy enough to leave. It is very sad to think that like my BIL he just doesn't care enough to prevent himself from ending up estranged from all of his family, maybe even his own son someday, because of his wife. Like my BIL it is his choice, he knows what is right he just can't bring himself to find the gumption to do it. The signs are all there. Remember he didn't attend his 87 year old grandmother's birthday dinner because his wife wouldn't like it. His wife should have said that he absolutely needed to go as at 87 you never know how much time she has left or if her mind will start to slip.


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## Egret1986 (Dec 12, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> Maybe it's better to simply be thankful for all you have and to try to celebrate the season with generosity, forgiveness, charity, peace...



I have read through all the posts and feel that I must be in the minority in my feelings.  I kind of feel sorry for the son and DIL to an extent.  None of us know the whole story, including Mom.  As the saying goes, there's two sides to every story.  This is THEIR relationship, THEIR marriage.

I know that it would make me happier if my two sons did things more "my way", too.  But I do everything in my power not to force my will on them.  I know from my own experience the effects that this can have on one's self and well-being.  It doesn't bring one closer.  It brings on resentment and drives a wedge in the relationship.

From the outside looking in based on what's been shared, it would seem there's this terrible young man with no backbone (among other things) and a tyrannical young woman with no redeeming qualities.  

Whether that's true or not, none of us know.  To me, that's the saddest part of this whole thread...how these two people have been judged by all without knowing anything more than what a hurting Mom has posted.  Sometimes, pain can mask reality.  I'm not diminishing your hurt, Mom.  It's very real.  It's hard to let go of those precious ones that we raised.  It hurts when we don't get what we want or expect from them.  But give them the opportunity to fly free.  Let them make their mistakes.  Let them grow.  Maybe the marriage will work, maybe it won't.  That's for them to determine and not anyone else.

My Mom never believed my marriage would last and told my husband when we announced our engagement that her daughter wasn't going to support him.  I think she finally realized, though never admitted to it, that I had married well and he was the best son-in-law she could have been blessed to have.  We will celebrate 35 years of marriage this Christmas Eve......and they said it wouldn't last; ha!  

You don't have to be their "bank".  You don't have to jump through hoops for them.  If you've done that in the past, that's on you.  Maybe a missing a backbone is genetic.  

As VegasBella stated, "...be thankful for all you have and try to celebrate the season with generosity, forgiveness, charity, peace...."  It will be better for all!

Merry Christmas to all!


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 12, 2017)

brownhaired_girl said:


> This post needs a LOVE button.   Such wisdom.


I agree, so many wise and loving folks on this forum...thank you all so much for helping me and suggesting ideas and thoughts for me to move forward...

All of you have showed me so much love and compassion, I just want you to know how much being a member of TUG means to me...


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 12, 2017)

b2bailey said:


> This has been an emotional roller coaster just reading it, can't imagine having to live it. That being said, very few have dared to wonder...' What is she (DIL) thinking?
> 
> Any possibility she has a mental/emotional issue regarding some form of social anxiety? Could there be some religious conflict?
> 
> ...



My son has told me she suffers from anxiety. A few year's ago when I meet my DIL's grandmother (on the dad's side of the family), I was surprised to find out she even existed, she was not at the wedding, or the baby's baptism. She told me once her son married, she rarely saw them and she asked me if I would bring my grandson over to her so she could hold her great grandson.  I realized at that moment this is what my life will look like.  My DIL's dad is a very meek man that very rarely says more than two words. I think because my DIL grew up in a household that only did activities with the wife's side of the family this is what my DIL wants to do in her marriage.  

I just need to continue to tell my son I will always love him and try to carve out time with my grandson during non-holidays...


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 12, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> It is going to sound harsh, but he bears alot of responsibility with the current situation.  Saying that by not showing up at family's events is because he wants to make peace at home is not good enough.
> 
> There are many self-centered and manipulative DILs or SILs out there.  She is definitely one of them.  But he chose her, married her and stay with her, knowing what she is like.  He chose her over his family.  OP needs to accept it and shield herself from further hurt.



I agree 100%, I actually do not blame my DIL but rather I blame my son, he is making the choice to NOT be with his family and his extended family.  He needs to decide if he wants to have this life and if he wants to see his family.


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## jackio (Dec 12, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I just need to continue to tell my son I will always love him and try to carve out time with my grandson during non-holidays...



Unfortunately, this is all you can do at this point.  Coming to terms with this will be healthy for you.  I am sorry it has to be this way for you, but I hope that you can come through it with peace in your heart .


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## Patri (Dec 12, 2017)

DIL may actually be very lonely, and tired of running things. It can be exhausting. So she falls back on her parents. Do son and DIL have healthy outside interests and friends? 
The whole situation is sad.


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## ace2000 (Dec 12, 2017)

Different perspective here, but in our situation our son-in-law's parents own a restaurant.  Unless we decide to travel together, they always go to the in-laws for Christmas AND Thanksgiving, since the restaurant is closed on holidays.

We adapt and make another off day our time to celebrate - usually the day before or the day after.  It's really not so bad.  It took my wife a few years to accept, but at this point it doesn't phase us a bit.


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## klpca (Dec 12, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I just need to continue to tell my son I will always love him and try to carve out time with my grandson during non-holidays...



This is the part where you have control (not that anyone - other than DIL - is trying to control anything). Hallmark etc, hype up the holidays - a lot - and in the process amplify any situation where you are outside of the "norm" for holiday get togethers. Christmas is a holiday, but really it is just another day. There are 364 other ones, equally good for seeing family. In my husbands family, we have driven 6 hours round trip for every Easter, half the Christmases, and probably 1/3 of the Thanksgivings. My in laws all live in the same community so it has always been expected that *we* will drive. I have hosted a few holidays over the years, but his family won't make the drive any more because of the traffic. (We know all about the holiday traffic!) That's how things went until 18 months ago, when my husband was diagnosed with cancer - stage 3 - and then had a heart attack - on Easter no less. Since then we have started meeting his family halfway between our homes at a park or restaurant about every six weeks to celebrate birthdays. It has been the best time ever. It is so relaxed and everyone gets a chance to visit. They still want us on the holidays too, but the drive is a bit much for my husband, so for now it's just birthdays. It has been surprisingly delightful.

I am truly sorry that you have to go through this, especially that it affects your happiness during the holidays. Hopefully as your grandson gets older, you will be able to find some holiday activities that can be special just for the two of you. I still have the fondest memories of shopping with my grandma (lol - that was her thing!) and of us going into the Sees Candy store to pick out some special chocolates. To this day, I can tell you what her favorites were. She made me feel special on those shopping trips. My grandmother was the calm person in my life during my childhood. Maybe you can be that person for your grandson.


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## lizap (Dec 12, 2017)

jackio said:


> Unfortunately, this is all you can do at this point.  Coming to terms with this will be healthy for you.  I am sorry it has to be this way for you, but I hope that you can come through it with peace in your heart .



You could also communicate to your son how you feel about this situation..


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## lvhmbh (Dec 12, 2017)

If you read back in OP's posts you will see that she DID make alternate plans.  She asked what they wanted to do and spent the money on the tickets for it.  They cancelled the night before.  OP's son didn't go to his 87 year old G-Mother's birthday????? and we should "give him a break".  I would just make sure my G-son knew I love him, continue to give him Christmas presents and let it go.  When speaking with my son I would tell him I love him, will always be there for him but I'm tired of these "games".   And tell him the next move is his.  I would also tell him that there is no money, so please don't bother to come to us for it - we're planning our retirement.   JMHO - good luck!


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## Talent312 (Dec 12, 2017)

... I thought my DW's family - the feuding Bradburns of Knoxville (4 siblings) - was dysfunctional.
One brother+sister are not talking to the other brother+sister, and one brother+sister are not talking.
Once a year, when we go to visit, we try to figure out who can be in the same room.


.


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## elaine (Dec 12, 2017)

In this situation, I would not have a talk with anyone. No good will come of it and it willl likely only get worse.
Ask them what day works for them and then get some food that can go straight to the freezer if needed. Don’t ever buy any event tickets until they show up on designated date for a few years. But plan something fun. A new game, decorating cookies or gingerbread house.
This is his wife and family now. You are extended family. Don’t make him choose or feel uncomfortable. He already chose. Life’s not perfect. maybe she’ll come around in a few years.  maybe not.
It’s hard to let go and let kids make poor decisions. Also in that camp myself.agreee with  lvhmbj   Elaine


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## lizap (Dec 12, 2017)

elaine said:


> In this situation, I would not have a talk with anyone. No good will come of it and it willl likely only get worse.
> Ask them what day works for them and then get some food that can go straight to the freezer if needed. Don’t ever buy any event tickets until they show up on designated date for a few years. But plan something fun. A new game, decorating cookies or gingerbread house.
> This is his wife and family now. You are extended family. Don’t make him choose or feel uncomfortable. He already chose. Life’s not perfect. maybe she’ll come around in a few years.  maybe not.
> It’s hard to let go and let kids make poor decisions. Also in that camp myself.agreee with  lvhmbj   Elaine



When we married, we became part of each other's family. We both love our in-laws. Marrying, in no way, should mean that you have to disavow your mom and dad. It is important to discuss things like this with your spouse-to-be before you marry so that you will know his/her feelings. Neither one of us would have ever considered marrying someone who disliked our families and tried to stop us from seeing them; you marry a person but, in a sense, you also are marrying into a family... To expect most adults to cut ties with their families is very unrealistic and problematic and frankly unhealthy for the vast majority of marriages.. now, if the adult child wants nothing to do with his parents, that's another issue..


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## elaine (Dec 12, 2017)

Totally concur. But wife and child is his nuclear family. Per my prior posts, I cannnot imagine not having dh’s families as part of ours or versa.
But OP’s adult child is following his wife’s lead. Other than offering to get together and saying you miss them, you cannot force it. Again. My prior post of what’s wrong with people. I wonder if this is a Millennial thing of just doing what one wants or feels good for them? Not saying all Ms are like that. I’ve got a great one.


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## jehb2 (Dec 12, 2017)

elaine said:


> I wonder if this is a Millennial thing...



Millennials didn't invent mean daughter-in-laws or sons who let their wives walk all over them.  Jan M's BIL has been married to his wife for over 50 years.  Did you read her story above.

The only thing new is the internet which allows us to share our stories.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 12, 2017)

Or inter-generational wisdom.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 12, 2017)

klpca said:


> This is the part where you have control (not that anyone - other than DIL - is trying to control anything). Hallmark etc, hype up the holidays - a lot - and in the process amplify any situation where you are outside of the "norm" for holiday get togethers. Christmas is a holiday, but really it is just another day. There are 364 other ones, equally good for seeing family. In my husbands family, we have driven 6 hours round trip for every Easter, half the Christmases, and probably 1/3 of the Thanksgivings. My in laws all live in the same community so it has always been expected that *we* will drive. I have hosted a few holidays over the years, but his family won't make the drive any more because of the traffic. (We know all about the holiday traffic!) That's how things went until 18 months ago, when my husband was diagnosed with cancer - stage 3 - and then had a heart attack - on Easter no less. Since then we have started meeting his family halfway between our homes at a park or restaurant about every six weeks to celebrate birthdays. It has been the best time ever. It is so relaxed and everyone gets a chance to visit. They still want us on the holidays too, but the drive is a bit much for my husband, so for now it's just birthdays. It has been surprisingly delightful.
> 
> I am truly sorry that you have to go through this, especially that it affects your happiness during the holidays. Hopefully as your grandson gets older, you will be able to find some holiday activities that can be special just for the two of you. I still have the fondest memories of shopping with my grandma (lol - that was her thing!) and of us going into the Sees Candy store to pick out some special chocolates. To this day, I can tell you what her favorites were. She made me feel special on those shopping trips. My grandmother was the calm person in my life during my childhood. Maybe you can be that person for your grandson.


Thank you so much. This was the most thoughtful and kind hearted remarks and I appreciate you sharing them with me. 

I’m so very sorry to hear your hubby has stage 3 cancer.  I hope the two of you get to spend many holidays together in the future.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 12, 2017)

lvhmbh said:


> If you read back in OP's posts you will see that she DID make alternate plans.  She asked what they wanted to do and spent the money on the tickets for it.  They cancelled the night before.  OP's son didn't go to his 87 year old G-Mother's birthday????? and we should "give him a break".  I would just make sure my G-son knew I love him, continue to give him Christmas presents and let it go.  When speaking with my son I would tell him I love him, will always be there for him but I'm tired of these "games".   And tell him the next move is his.  I would also tell him that there is no money, so please don't bother to come to us for it - we're planning our retirement.   JMHO - good luck!


Thank you.  I have really tried to be a good mother-in-law and I have tried to not be a pest.

  I was very blessed I have a wonderful mother in law and all she ever asked of me when I first got married was if we could spend a holiday with her and my father in law. She stated that since I had a family she would defer to me and I could let her know if and when we could spend time together.  

I tried using this same verbiage on my DIL and that is when she told me that she spends every holiday with her family.  At this point if my son wanted to spend time with his family he should have made his views known to his wife and he clearly just does what she tells him


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## pittle (Dec 12, 2017)

Family relationships are generally the hardest!

It sounds like you have done the best you can, but it boils down to choices.  Our younger son made some choices and discovered there are consequences - both good and bad.  As our only grandchild said to me once when he was 2-1/2 - Nana, I don't like consequences!  His Dad had taught him that when you choose to do the wrong thing, the consequences were not great.  I tried to reinforce good behavior with good consequences.

Younger son and his wife now live 26 miles from us and every few years will come for Christmas dinner if her family is out of town.  They know they are welcome and dinner will be at 3:00 on Christmas Day.  We are fine either way - they have an open invitation. They have started joining us for Thanksgiving in Puerto Vallarta because we have a very nice timeshare unit in a super location.  They just have to buy plane tickets and pay for their meals out.  They have not missed it the last 3 years  (stayed 10 days this year).  We do not smother them when they are there, we ask that we all go to dinner on Thanksgiving Day together - other than that, they can do their own thing.  They do share breakfast with us a few days.

Our other son lives less than 1/2 mile away and we see him all the time - he just pops over or calls for us to join them for a BBQ. Right now, the Thanksgiving vacation does not work for them as our grandson has been in HS and was on a swim team.  He just started college this fall and this was his first time to come home.

We will be married 50 years next year and none of my husband's siblings have ever been to any home we have lived in.  We left the small Arkansas town when we got married and had to go there at least once a year to see the family.  We used to joke that they finished the northern side of the highway because we always got home!  Once my husbands parents passed, we have not gone back.  We only went back for Christmas once when the boys were small and there was a huge snowstorm on the way back so we just went in the summer.  Even when we retired and moved to a lake and had 2 boats, no one was willing to drive 3-1/2 hours to come see us.  Now we live in the Phoenix area and both our sons do too.

My family has scattered across the country, but we do email or call one another regularly.  The youngest is single and called today to see if he could come for Christmas.  I said sure.  He then invited us to drive to Palm Springs to see the progress on the house he is having renovated there.  So the day after Christmas, we will drive there and spend a couple of nights and see his place.  He will be moving there from Atlanta next year.

Since I have 2 sons and 3 brothers, I just enjoy the time I do get to spend with them.  I am glad that they do not expect me to have a huge dinner ready every Sunday noon though.  You can have too much togetherness!


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## geekette (Dec 12, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I have no issue's with lists, but prior to my DIL marrying my son she sent me an email that said it was her dream to get married at Disney World and would we contribute 35K, so she could get married there.  I told her our budget was to give each child $10K for their weddings and we would also host and pay for the rehearsal dinner. She told me that since I could only contribute such a small amount we could only invite 20 people.
> 
> This gal is all about the money.  When my grandmother died and I inherited the house, she stated to me that she would like to live there and she would pay us $100 a month rent.  I explained that I had to sell the house and use it to pay off my grandmother's final bills.
> 
> ...



YIKES.

But, good for you for not giving in to her demands.  Indeed, she wants you to bankroll her extravagance.

I'm so sorry.  I'm sure this is not how you thought DIL relationships would be.  Stand strong, do your thing and don't ever cave to her demands.


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## geekette (Dec 12, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m just shocked. I guess they are going to look for jobs after the holidays and just have her parents pay for their living expenses.
> 
> It’s so sad and I wish I knew a way to not blow up and just tell them how much their behavior has hurt me the past 7 years.


Vent here, dear, else you give that witchy woman more power to hurt you and she will.  Take comfort and joy from your spouse and other kids.  there isn't much you can do about any of it except control your reactions to whatever claptrap comes from her/them.


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## silentg (Dec 13, 2017)

You talk about your daughter in law, but what about your son? Does he ever visit you on his own?
Such a sad thing to focus on that one son, when you have two other children and their families to celebrate with. When we were younger we split Holiday with Thanksgiving with in laws and Christmas Eve day with in laws and Christmas Eve night with my family and Christmas Day with my family too.
Both of our kids and SIL will be spending Christmas Eve and Day with us. No one has to work and we enjoy being together. Our son isn’t married so no DIL. We invited SIL parents over for Thanksgiving dessert. And will invite them to Christmas Eve too.
We don’t celebrate with family up north.they all have their own families and make their own traditions.
Want to wish you a Merry Christmas and spend it with ones who want to be there.
Silentg


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## pedro47 (Dec 13, 2017)

Never give up on your family members , their will come a time when they will seek your support and advice. I would continue to invite the whole family and maybe one day the light will go off and they will attend the family celebration or maybe the light will turn dark and they will be to late to enjoy the family celebration.


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## uop1497 (Dec 13, 2017)

I just wonder if would it be easy if we can stop loving and caring for our children and enjoy remaining life freely ourselves.  I still have responsibility with my younger son so I can not do that yet.

I am happy for those of you who has a wonderful relationship with your children ,  their spouse and grandchildren. I am not a lucky person who can have all that and will prepare myself for the worse time ahead of me . 

Although I am preparing myself for the worse situation, but it is very difficult to do so.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 13, 2017)

geekette said:


> YIKES.
> 
> But, good for you for not giving in to her demands.  Indeed, she wants you to bankroll her extravagance.
> 
> I'm so sorry.  I'm sure this is not how you thought DIL relationships would be.  Stand strong, do your thing and don't ever cave to her demands.



I'm an only child and all I ever wanted was a big family.  This is why I really wanted 3 kids... I guess in my head I always thought for at least one holiday all of my family would be in attendance. I've lowered my expectations and next year I will pick a date in the summer and get buy in from all and pick that as our date to celebrate the Christmas Holiday.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 13, 2017)

silentg said:


> You talk about your daughter in law, but what about your son? Does he ever visit you on his own?
> Such a sad thing to focus on that one son, when you have two other children and their families to celebrate with. When we were younger we split Holiday with Thanksgiving with in laws and Christmas Eve day with in laws and Christmas Eve night with my family and Christmas Day with my family too.
> Both of our kids and SIL will be spending Christmas Eve and Day with us. No one has to work and we enjoy being together. Our son isn’t married so no DIL. We invited SIL parents over for Thanksgiving dessert. And will invite them to Christmas Eve too.
> We don’t celebrate with family up north.they all have their own families and make their own traditions.
> ...



I'm very blessed in that I have shared many wonderful holidays with my children and extended family. It's only been the years that my oldest son and my DIL were dating and married that we have not shared a holiday with them.  I guess my extended family is odd in that we celebrate every holiday, New Year's Eve, Easter, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas with as many of our family and extended family in attendance. We just invite everybody, as my Dad always said nobody is ever left behind.   Please don't think that I'm not focusing on my other two children and their families because I am.  We have wonderful memories of many holidays spent together.  My other children never make it to all holiday events and that is perfectly fine. My other kids always ensure that they attend at least once celebration that their other siblings have stated they will be in attendance at.   I just needed a place to vent and get some ideas on how to handle the situation...My other children feel bad because they all loved our family get togethers as children and they don't understand why their brother does not make it to at least one family event.

I would like to wish you a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and I hope you have a joyous holiday season...


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## Zac495 (Dec 14, 2017)

Unbelievable! How dare she ask for 3K in presents and not show  up? I do understand having to share time. My sister spends every Thanksgiving with our family (mom, sister, cousins) and Christmas with his. She visits regularly. The actual date doesn't matter to us - but the fact that everyone is together is important. I'm "lucky," not to have any in-laws. My husband's family is gone so it's always mine. And I put lucky in quotes because I think family is the most important thing in the world - and would never do anything to destroy it. When my kids marry, I will hope they do the same - share holidays.

I agree with others. Let them come the 23rd and order take-out. Buy whatever presents you WANT to purchase - not 3k worth - how dare she? I wouldn't say no - they can't come - because in the end, that will hurt you. He's your son even though he's not acting like the man you raised.

Hugs,
Ellen


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## silentg (Dec 14, 2017)

uop1497 said:


> I just wonder if would it be easy if we can stop loving and caring for our children and enjoy remaining life freely ourselves.  I still have responsibility with my younger son so I can not do that yet.
> 
> I am happy for those of you who has a wonderful relationship with your children ,  their spouse and grandchildren. I am not a lucky person who can have all that and will prepare myself for the worse time ahead of me .
> 
> Although I am preparing myself for the worse situation, but it is very difficult to do so.


So sorry that your relationship with your family is not a happy one.
We have had some Rocky Christmases, but that was in the past. Fortunately, we all enjoy being together since the DIL has moved away and son is happily on his own.


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## winger (Dec 14, 2017)

Luanne said:


> I don't mean to take us in a whole other direction, but what the heck?  They are quitting their jobs and expect to save money?


yeh, don't you know it costs money to travel to work? And, paying rent costs a whole lot more than living in my folks' home! Plus, I wouldn't have to spend money on groceries and utilities!


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## Xan (Dec 14, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> They are not on drugs, my son worked a job that was on the midnight shift from 10:00pm till 7:00am, so that they could avoid babysitting fees for their son. She worked a daytime job as an marketing manager.  They do have lazy ass disease. Part of the problem is when they needed money and I said no they went back to school so that they could take out more student loans. They used student loans to buy her engagement ring. My son told me he has $85K in loans and she has $90K in loans. They live 2 hours away from us and I think because the place they lived was mostly a college town, they wanted to move to the area that they grew up in.  However, they should have found jobs before both of them quitting their jobs and moving in with her parents...UGH



Tell your son that you love him, (and the grandson), but until he grows up and learns to become a responsible adult, that you will not be helping financially or giving gifts to any of them. The holidays aren’t about money, gifts or a contest on which family gets to see who. 
Close the bank and your home. Let your other children know that they can go and spend time with their in-laws. The two of you should just enjoy the peacefulness or go on a trip for a relaxing time.
A phone call to each child is even too much.
I know the other children didn’t cause issues, but tell them the truth and just relax. People are forgetting the true meaning of Christmas!
As for the other holidays and occasions, tell them that you are saving for a nice comfortable retirement for just the two of you.
See if any of them take the initiative to be the first to call you on any of the occasions.
I know it sounds cold, but you will have a much more peaceful mind.
Maybe help serve meals at a shelter.
I wish you the best of luck in this situation.
(You could also hold a funeral for Your son’s gonads! Lol)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2017)

Xan said:


> Tell your son that you love him, (and the grandson), but until he grows up and learns to become a responsible adult, that you will not be helping financially or giving gifts to any of them. The holidays aren’t about money, gifts or a contest on which family gets to see who.
> Close the bank and your home. Let your other children know that they can go and spend time with their in-laws. The two of you should just enjoy the peacefulness or go on a trip for a relaxing time.
> A phone call to each child is even too much.
> I know the other children didn’t cause issues, but tell them the truth and just relax. People are forgetting the true meaning of Christmas!
> ...


What you are missing is that OP enjoys and cherishes the time she spends with her children and grandchildren.  Shutting out her family during the holidays does not make her happier.


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## Xan (Dec 14, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> What you are missing is that OP enjoys and cherishes the time she spends with her children and grandchildren.  Shutting out her family during the holidays does not make her happier.



I totally understand that, but she has to draw the line sometime or she will just make herself miserable over this issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 14, 2017)

As for family time ... grandparents, parents, extended family & young kids ... my experience for Christmas mornings:

By the time both of my parents had passed on and my sister 10 years younger had 3 children ... Christmas morning and the rest of the day, was a  "let's just live thru this" event. Playing Santa at 3AM with hyped children (2yo, 7yo and 9yo) bouncing off the walls at dawn .. the parents just wanted to survive. I did not know the internal code for whose present or Mom & Dad's gifts. Or if the gifts belong to nieces & nephews. Or Santa Xmas wrapping paper or from the family gifts. 

I took the coward's way out ... promising to get up with the nephews and keep them quiet w/o ripping open EVERYTHING under the tree. I went thru my sister's cabinets and the boys made muffins from the box ... one variety each boy. Set the dining room table with the GOOD china. I instructed the boys to TALK to mom & dad, but not about what was under the tree. Mom and Dad got a good hour plus of sleep, got something to eat (as did the boys), and gifts got opened one by one. The next year, we started doing 3 quiches (one for each boy). Mom took head shot photos of each boy presenting his QUICHE to Mom & Dad. And yes, every person ate quiche plus the box muffins. The boys this Christmas will be 17, 22 and 24 ... at least 2 of them (if not all 3) will be up at 7am .. mixing, baking and cooking followed by eating breakfast on the good Christmas china ... listening to praises from Mom & Dad.


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2017)

Linda, You would have made a great parent.


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## bogey21 (Dec 14, 2017)

I'm amazed with how big a problem this is for so many.  Maybe some of us expect too much from our kids.  Alternatively maybe many of our kids look at life differently from what it was when we grew up.

George


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## ronparise (Dec 14, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> I'm amazed with how big a problem this is for so many.  Maybe some of us expect too much from our kids.  Alternatively maybe many of our kids look at life differently from what it was when we grew up.
> 
> George



I dont see the problem either. 

When my little girl got married her husband became the man in her life.... I dont ask them to adapt to my needs, I adapt to theirs.  
Interestingly. They are planning a trip to visit his parents and they asked my wife and I to join them.


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> I'm amazed with how big a problem this is for so many.  Maybe some of us expect too much from our kids.  Alternatively maybe many of our kids look at life differently from what it was when we grew up.
> 
> George



I understand expectations from parents for their kids.  I have very little expectations as well.  Every relationship is different.  We have friends who are in their late 70s and guess what.... wait for it..., they still do laundry and cleaning for their 2 single sons who are in their early forties and live within a stone's throw from their home.  No wonder they do not want to marry and they followed their parents when they moved out of state.  One works in Colorado in winter (ski instructor) and somewhere on the east coast in summer (cruise ship) and comes back during off season, the other one is doing odd jobs.  They call their parents several times a day.  The husband wants to travel but the wife wants to stay home so that she can do laundry for her son.  We are in disbelief...


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 14, 2017)

silentg said:


> You talk about your daughter in law, but what about your son? Does he ever visit you on his own?
> Such a sad thing to focus on that one son, when you have two other children and their families to celebrate with. When we were younger we split Holiday with Thanksgiving with in laws and Christmas Eve day with in laws and Christmas Eve night with my family and Christmas Day with my family too.
> Both of our kids and SIL will be spending Christmas Eve and Day with us. No one has to work and we enjoy being together. Our son isn’t married so no DIL. We invited SIL parents over for Thanksgiving dessert. And will invite them to Christmas Eve too.
> We don’t celebrate with family up north.they all have their own families and make their own traditions.
> ...



As a follow-up, our son called us a few days ago and said he wanted to come and visit his grandmother and we could have a little get together. He said he was going to come over on Wednesday or Thursday this week. He called his brother today to say he now didn't have his car, and the one at his in laws was not working but please tell Mom I will see her next week. His brother then said, no problem I'm on on my way and I will pick you up so you will have a way to come over and see mom and grandma.

I would have never known the full story but after my other son dropped him off, he called me and said Mom I don't understand why he even said he was coming over because he really did not have any intention of coming over and seemed very mad that I came and got him when he called me to say that he could not come over. My son then said, Mom the whole way home he kept saying what a great time he had and he was so happy that the two of them could come over. I guess he also said, I always have such a good time when we all get together.

My other son, was upset because he feels that he had done this multiple times, calls and says he is going to come over and then finds an excuse to back out. My son told me tonight, mom, I wish he would not call and say he is coming over if he does not have the intention of actually following through. My son said to me that he gets so upset when he does this to me and his and he does not understand why he would get his grandma all excited to see her Great-Grandson, just to be let down...


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 14, 2017)

deleted duplicate post


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 14, 2017)

deleted duplicate post


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> As a follow-up, our son called us a few days ago and said he wanted to come and visit his grandmother and we could have a little get together. He said he was going to come over on Wednesday or Thursday this week. He called his brother today to say he now didn't have his car, and the one at his in laws was not working but please tell Mom I will see her next week. His brother then said, no problem on on my way and I will pick you up so you will have a way to come over and see mom and grandma. I thought it was odd, that his brother was bringing him and my grandson over, but was so happy to see him, that I just let it be and not make a big deal...
> 
> I would have never known the full story but after my other son dropped him off, he called me and said Mom I don't understand why he even said he was coming over because he really did not have any intention of coming over and seemed very mad that I came and got him when he called me to say that he could not come over. My son then said, Mom the whole way home he kept saying what a great time he had and he was so happy that the two of them could come over.


Great that it happened.  But it reinforces our suspicion that it is not just your DIL who resists coming over to your place and that your son is part of the problem.


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2017)

Xan said:


> I totally understand that, but she has to draw the line sometime or she will just make herself miserable over this issue.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So she should stop seeing ALL her children to make herself "happy"?  I don't think so!


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## Xan (Dec 14, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> So she should stop seeing ALL her children to make herself "happy"?  I don't think so!



I gave a suggestion like many others did, and I’m sticking with my suggestion.
The key word is “suggestion”.
She has to truly figure out what will make herself happy first, and it doesn’t sound like it’s going to include that one son.
I really don’t know how she gets along with the DIL’s parents, but maybe there can be dialogue and possibly gatherings at their home at least once a year, even if it’s for the grandson’s birthday.
Just suggestions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xan (Dec 14, 2017)

Xan said:


> I gave a suggestion like many others did, and I’m sticking with my suggestion.
> The key word is “suggestion”.
> She has to truly figure out what will make herself happy first, and it doesn’t sound like it’s going to include that one son.
> I really don’t know how she gets along with the DIL’s parents, but maybe there can be dialogue and possibly gatherings at their home at least once a year, even if it’s for the grandson’s birthday.
> ...



I’m out of this topic...too much drama!
I have had several issues like this over the past 30 years .
I wish only the best for all of them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xan (Dec 14, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> As a follow-up, our son called us a few days ago and said he wanted to come and visit his grandmother and we could have a little get together. He said he was going to come over on Wednesday or Thursday this week. He called his brother today to say he now didn't have his car, and the one at his in laws was not working but please tell Mom I will see her next week. His brother then said, no problem I'm on on my way and I will pick you up so you will have a way to come over and see mom and grandma.
> 
> I would have never known the full story but after my other son dropped him off, he called me and said Mom I don't understand why he even said he was coming over because he really did not have any intention of coming over and seemed very mad that I came and got him when he called me to say that he could not come over. My son then said, Mom the whole way home he kept saying what a great time he had and he was so happy that the two of them could come over. I guess he also said, I always have such a good time when we all get together.
> 
> My other son, was upset because he feels that he had done this multiple times, calls and says he is going to come over and then finds an excuse to back out. My son told me tonight, mom, I wish he would not call and say he is coming over if he does not have the intention of actually following through. My son said to me that he gets so upset when he does this to me and his and he does not understand why he would get his grandma all excited to see her Great-Grandson, just to be let down...



Just curious if the son was trying to get money out of his grandmother?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Panina (Dec 15, 2017)

He came, doesn’t matter how or why, he came, he could have told his brother no, and he had a nice time.


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## Egret1986 (Dec 15, 2017)

Panina said:


> He came, doesn’t matter how or why, he came, he could have told his brother no, and he had a nice time.



Agreed.

Very sad situation when one can't ever live up to the expectations of others no matter what you do.   Especially when it's family.

Maybe you could send your son and DIL a link to this thread to let them know how screwed up they are if they haven't gotten the message already. Though I'm sure they have. 

Yes, I'm a bit sensitive about this subject.

To start a thread to look for an answer on "how to deal with a son and DIL that will not spend the holiday with you?" and then to keep it flowing and allowing the personal attacks (some being pretty disgusting) of your child and his wife.  I definitely have an opinion on the possible reason for the problem.  (Go back and read some of these statements.)

It doesn't seem that you're really looking for an answer on how YOU can deal with the situation.  I think you want to change them to meet your expectations.  However, in reality, they are living up to your expectations.  You expect this.  After all, it's been determined time and again that they are the couple with no redeeming qualities, expected to want and not give, to do wrong and do no good.  It's been suggested that your son lacks particular body parts, that they could be druggies or alcoholics, criminals and that the door locks need to be changed, that the neighbors should watch out, that the grandson should be taken out of the home, and on and on.  The part about the wedding expectations, using a student loan for an engagement ring, giving a Christmas list with $3K worth of items, etc.; to me that's plain old immaturity and wanting.  You've indicated that they have all this student loan debt, broken down vehicles, now no place to live except with the in-laws.  This couple has made some really bad choices.  But really?  To allow folks on a public forum to berate them the way that they have just so you can garner support for yourself speaks volumes to me.  I know I'm in the minority.

Some poster mentioned you having a husband.  I have only heard you mention yourself and the other sons.  How does your husband feel about all this?  Is there a husband?  Does he know about this thread?  Has he read it?  How about grandma?  I think it would be a real eye-opener for everyone in the family to read it.  

I don't know you or anyone in your family.  But neither does anyone else that has posted on this thread.  Most support you in your condemnation of your son and DIL.  Has it helped in dealing with the situation? 

You gave a follow-up.  It's a shame that it was just more of the same....and I'm not talking about what the son did or didn't do.


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## Jan M. (Dec 15, 2017)

I'm wondering if the reason her son seemed mad when his brother showed up to give him a ride was because he didn't know how he was going to explain this to his wife. From what our TUG friend posted it sounded like he and his son came but not her.

I'm so glad he and his son had a nice visit with his mother and grandmother. I'm guessing everyone in the family has some idea of how things stand and it may have become uncomfortable for him to face them so it has become very easy for him to avoid the family gatherings. Having all your family together for a holiday/special event is a wonderful feeling but how much time were you actually spending with him on those occasions? The hostess is a busy woman. The smaller get together with a few people who were undoubtedly thrilled to see him and his son may be just what he needed and it sounds like it might encourage him to want to come back.

I remember a holiday visit to my sister years ago. We had moved two of hours away in different direction from both of our families. Think of a triangle. My husband had taken over a new territory for his job and was away a lot. I hadn't found a job yet, we didn't know anyone in the area and I hadn't seen my sister in a few months so was really looking forward to seeing her. Money was really tight for us at that time, only small gifts for each other and even the gas money to visit our families that year had to be part of those Christmas presents. Both my sister and BIL were teachers so had the week before Christmas and the week after off. Since she had time to get the house cleaned and everything done, during that week before Christmas she kept inviting people until they had a whole packed house full of people both for early dinner and for later in the afternoon and evening. My day was spent helping cook for, cleaning up after and entertaining their friends and my BIL's family. Not that we didn't enjoy seeing everybody, we did. I had just really been looking forward to spending some time with my sister and BIL. When my husband and I were talking on our very late night drive home about what a nice day it had been he commented that it had been so busy that I hadn't gotten to spend any time with just my sister. The same thing happened on another trip to visit them the next summer and that was my fool me twice shame on me moment. Both times had I known so many other people were coming we could have easily rescheduled to get together another day which is what I did the next Christmas. She thought we had other plans with my husband's family that fell through or changed so was disappointed and felt bad that I hadn't called and said we were coming to their house for Christmas Day. I just said that it was fine and I was really enjoying spending time with her. It wasn't her intent to take advantage of me to help her do the work for their guests. Our Mother died when I was 14 and she was 10 so a special part of holidays for both of was us working together to make them happen. I needed something more than that and took steps to change things.

Another thing I have done in later years to change a dynamic with my sister is cleaning up before and during/after meals. My sister and BIL for years have had huge lovely homes and my sister makes me crazy with cleaning up during meals. She picked up this rude and obsessive habit from a very close friend over the 37 years they've been friends; she was certainly raised with better manners. The two families and other friends spent most holidays and many other occasions together. I've never lived closer than two hours away so this friend has been there to influence my sister and I haven't. However while other women and my sister will follow this friend's lead, I will not get up from the table until absolutely everyone has finished and had a few minutes to sit and talk. If there is very little left for me to help with, so be it. I've gotten my share of looks from her friend and I have never lost a second of sleep over it. For the past several years this friend and her husband have both retired and been traveling a lot so it is finally easier for me to have more influence on my sister. I tell everyone to start eating while the food is hot. If she cannot sit down with the rest of us because she has to start cleaning up while the food grows cold that is her problem. I will not have anyone feel rude by starting without her nor be forced to eat cold food because they have good manners. When she starts cleaning up as soon as she sees that most of us are done eating then I gently say to my sister that the dishes won't run away, sit down for a few minutes and we'll get to them. If she can sit at the table and talk for a few minutes at the conclusion of the meal then I will help clean up the kitchen. I was very pleased to see that the last time we were all together a few months ago my BIL and nephew have joined me in encouraging her. When everyone was done she went into the family room to visit with the rest of our families and play with her grandsons and our granddaughters while my BIL, nephew and I cleaned up. Anything we couldn't find or figure out what to do with I saved until the end to ask her about to show them how to go about things so she doesn't feel like she might as well just do the clean up herself. Making progress!


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## bluehende (Dec 15, 2017)

I am one of those "lucky" people that has experienced these issues from both sides.  First off OP, I am so sorry to hear of these problems.  I absolutely understand how painful and stressful these situations are.  My problems were not as severe as yours either.  My mother was very demanding.  She did not talk to us for a few months, and refused to call us for years because we bought a cell phone.  She made my DW life a living hell at times.  Now we have a similar situation with our oldest son.  He avoids conflict too and DIL runs the household.  This Christmas they will be back home for 9 days and we get 2 while the DIL family gets the other 7.  Normal procedure.  Here is my advice.

1.  Make 100% sure you are not contributing to the problem.  Try to get rid of all the emotion and take a good hard look.  If you can talk to your other children approach it as what could I do better.  It will be hard to get an honest answer as they are close to the situation and have a stake in the outcome, but try.  This advice is not easy to accomplish.  

2.  Do not make any ultimatums.  This was when the worst of the drama with my mother was initiated.  See above about the cell phone.  We got the ultimatum that if we bought a cell phone we would be disowned (true story).  We got the cell phone and the above drama happened.

3.  Time with your grandson is the most important objective.  Over the years we shove down the hurt we feel and revel in the time we get with our grand daughter.  My wife was in day care for 40 years so we get a lot of babysitting time.  DS and DIL like to take a solo weeks vacation every year.  Can you guess our favorite week of the year.  This year our Christmas celebration will be December 28 and believe it or not I am fine with it.  I am looking forward to having my grand daughter snuggling with us while opening a few presents.

4.  Show constant love to not only your son and grandson, but kill your DIL with kindness.  In our situation over the years it has gotten much better.  My wife now has a good relationship with our DIL.  A lot of the reason is we gave up most of the resentment and our DIL sees the absolute love we have for her children.

Having given the advice it could be useless to you as my situation is not your situation.  No two are alike.  With my mother there were periods that the outcome was removal from the situation.  We also never allowed even the worst drama to move to complete cut off.  With our DIL we know that life without our grandkids would be horrible.  At this point I cannot imagine any scenario that would have us in a situation where we would choose not see our grand children.

My only hope for you is it gets better as your son and DIL mature and you get all the precious grandson time your heart can take.


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## Panina (Dec 15, 2017)

bluehende said:


> I am one of those "lucky" people that has experienced these issues from both sides.  First off OP, I am so sorry to hear of these problems.  I absolutely understand how painful and stressful these situations are.  My problems were not as severe as yours either.  My mother was very demanding.  She did not talk to us for a few months, and refused to call us for years because we bought a cell phone.  She made my DW life a living hell at times.  Now we have a similar situation with our oldest son.  He avoids conflict too and DIL runs the household.  This Christmas they will be back home for 9 days and we get 2 while the DIL family gets the other 7.  Normal procedure.  Here is my advice.
> 
> 1.  Make 100% sure you are not contributing to the problem.  Try to get rid of all the emotion and take a good hard look.  If you can talk to your other children approach it as what could I do better.  It will be hard to get an honest answer as they are close to the situation and have a stake in the outcome, but try.  This advice is not easy to accomplish.
> 
> ...


From the heart, great advice


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## klpca (Dec 15, 2017)

All of us see this issue through the prism of our own experiences. This is a great place to vent because it's fairly anonymous. You can take advice given or dismiss it because you know the reality of the situation - the nuances, the personalities of the people involved etc. In reading the different responses, I find it interesting to see how others see the situation, and frequently, it's very different from my perspective. It's good for a reality check. 

I think that all of us wish the best for OP and her family, especially during the holiday season.


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## Elan (Dec 15, 2017)

I would suspect, as is typically the case in "relationship" issues, that there are other factors/history in play that we're not aware of.  Without knowing the involved parties, it's difficult to say anything with much conviction. 

  Having issued that qualifier, I think the advice to not give ultimatums is spot on.  In fact, I'd be inclined to act as though this isn't bothering me at all.  Maybe to the extent that I'd stop inviting son and DIL over.  At some point, this might actually _cause them to reflect_ on the situation, which _appears to be_ what is ultimately necessary.  

  We have neighbors that we get along with pretty well.  Have known them for 15 years.  About 5 years ago, it became blatantly obvious that the mom (somewhat of a drama queen -- think 48 yo high schooler) was giving us the silent treatment.  And, because she wears the pants in the family, the dad followed suit.  They never communicated what we had done to irritate them, and my wife and I discussed it and couldn't come up with anything.  I told my wife to just act oblivious to the situation.  Continue to smile, wave, yell "hi" across the street, etc.   After a couple months of us acting like nothing was up, they started to resume their previously friendly behavior toward us and things have been totally cool since.  To this day, we don't have any idea what got to them, and we really don't care.  If they weren't big enough to tell us directly what we'd done we couldn't fix it, and we weren't about to ask, as that would add to the drama and possibly do irreparable damage.  I see the OP's situation similarly.  Until son/DIL are ready to change there's not much the OP can do.  I'd let them know that they're always welcome, then effectively "write them off" and move on.  Either they come around, or they don't, but you can't push a rope. 

  Best of luck to the OP in finding some peace.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 15, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> My oldest son, my daughter-in-law (DIL), and my grandson have never spent one holiday with me and his siblings.
> 
> My DIL has stated that she really only wants to spend every holiday with her family and that if we want them over for Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve or Christmas Day that we can connect up before or after the holiday but those days are reserved always for her family.
> 
> ...



I think they’ve made their choices and now it’s up to you what response you can live with.

Personally I wouldn’t fight with them about it. Kids grow up and sometimes move on. It’s wrong to try to hold them back or control their lives IMHO, even if I might be irritated by their choices.

As to gifting, if it where me I’d be getting something relatively nice for the grandchildren and an Amazon gift card for the adults in an amount I felt apptopriate.

As to being the bank for money emergencies, I’d tell them the money tree in the back yard had died. I support our children when necessary unless it’s obvious the need for support is repeated poor decision making. In that case we talk about what got them there and options to get themselves out of their situation other than hitting mom and dad’s bail out service again. Eventually we either won’t be here or won’t have the means to help them financially. I look at it as our job to teach them self reliance.


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## Jan M. (Dec 15, 2017)

bluehende said:


> We got the ultimatum that if we bought a cell phone we would be disowned (true story). We got the cell phone and the above drama happened.



I'm sorry you had to go through this but I'm getting a laugh out of reading it. All that over a cell phone! I'm trying to imagine what your mother's issue was with cell phones. Or was it that you defied her when she thought she had the right to tell her grown son what to do? 

The people who bring headache, heartache and drama into others lives often refuse to see themselves as the cause of it and even when they do see it they still feel completely justified in their words or actions. 

Some adult children can't be bothered with their parents who are perfectly nice people and other adult children have parents they would be justified in cutting all contract with but don't. I remember years ago a good friend of my MIL either didn't know or didn't understand how bad her condition was. My MIL was a nurse and knew she didn't have a lot of time left before she really went downhill so kept telling her to call her son, her only child. The son lived on the other side of the country and hadn't had much if any contract with his widowed mother for years. She kept telling my MIL she didn't want to bother her son and he probably wouldn't come anyhow. My MIL finally called him herself and told him in no uncertain terms to get home. He came and stayed for a couple of days while his mother was still able to enjoy seeing him. Now with family leave he would have been able to stay until she passed two weeks later but back then all you could do is use vacation time until your family member actually died and you got a few days off for the funeral. Not that he would have stayed.


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## presley (Dec 15, 2017)

I only read pages one and six. I just wanted to say that when my mom was alive, she was extremely emotional about having me and my family over on holidays. It was very annoying. Many times, we wanted to do something else, and she would take it as a personal attack. I vowed to never do that to my kids. 

My kids are adults now and I tell them if they can't make it over on Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc, I don't care. We will do the whole thing again on a day that works for all of us. Most of the time, they do make it over. When they don't - it's no big deal. Will I cook a special meal? No! We will go out somewhere nice or make a full day of doing something special.


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## WinniWoman (Dec 15, 2017)

I think people are missing the point here about doing Christmas on another day other than 12/25. This is not about not being able to make it once in a while. This is a blatant declaration and insult of purposely NEVER spending Christmas with the OP and her family.

The DIL (and son) has made it abundantly clear that only HER family is important enough to be with on such an important Christian holiday and to hell with the Op's side of the family. There is absolutely no reason why this cannot be alternated year to year between each family and I find it despicable that they do this.

I wouldn't disown my son over it. But I would state very clearly that I didn't think it was right and was not happy about it. I would offer to babysit the grandchild and try to keep a good relationship with him. But I would not go out of my way in trying to please the parents at all.


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## ace2000 (Dec 15, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> There is absolutely no reason why this cannot be alternated year to year between each family and I find it despicable that they do this.



I don't know that anyone on here knows all the facts, and we've obviously only heard one perspective.  Regardless, sometimes there are good reasons why it's done this way, as I mentioned in our case (post #93).  You just can't make the statement above without knowing the whole story.


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## bluehende (Dec 15, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through this but I'm getting a laugh out of reading it. All that over a cell phone! I'm trying to imagine what your mother's issue was with cell phones. Or was it that you defied her when she thought she had the right to tell her grown son what to do?



We laugh about it now.  My mom was the my way or the highway type.  She has been gone for 10 yrs now.  Most of our memories are good and those are the ones we choose to dwell on.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 15, 2017)

bluehende said:


> I am one of those "lucky" people that has experienced these issues from both sides.  First off OP, I am so sorry to hear of these problems.  I absolutely understand how painful and stressful these situations are.  My problems were not as severe as yours either.  My mother was very demanding.  She did not talk to us for a few months, and refused to call us for years because we bought a cell phone.  She made my DW life a living hell at times.  Now we have a similar situation with our oldest son.  He avoids conflict too and DIL runs the household.  This Christmas they will be back home for 9 days and we get 2 while the DIL family gets the other 7.  Normal procedure.  Here is my advice.
> 
> 1.  Make 100% sure you are not contributing to the problem.  Try to get rid of all the emotion and take a good hard look.  If you can talk to your other children approach it as what could I do better.  It will be hard to get an honest answer as they are close to the situation and have a stake in the outcome, but try.  This advice is not easy to accomplish.
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much, I truly appreciate your suggestions and thoughts. I’m going to begin using quite a few of them. It’s been a stressful time and perhaps I contributed to this situation and if I did I want and need to figure out how to enjoy the holidays and continue to spend quality time with my children and grandchildren.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 15, 2017)

presley said:


> I only read pages one and six. I just wanted to say that when my mom was alive, she was extremely emotional about having me and my family over on holidays. It was very annoying. Many times, we wanted to do something else, and she would take it as a personal attack. I vowed to never do that to my kids.
> 
> My kids are adults now and I tell them if they can't make it over on Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc, I don't care. We will do the whole thing again on a day that works for all of us. Most of the time, they do make it over. When they don't - it's no big deal. Will I cook a special meal? No! We will go out somewhere nice or make a full day of doing something special.


Thank you for your perspective.  I truly appreciate it


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## sue1947 (Dec 15, 2017)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I'm an only child and all I ever wanted was a big family.  This is why I really wanted 3 kids... I guess in my head I always thought for at least one holiday all of my family would be in attendance. I've lowered my expectations and next year I will pick a date in the summer and get buy in from all and pick that as our date to celebrate the Christmas Holiday.



My mother was also an only child.  She married into a family with 6 siblings thinking she would get the brothers and sisters she always wanted.  What she got were 6 different individuals who mostly went their own way; some keeping in touch, some completely ignoring and some sniping.  She had 3 kids and thought we would always be there for each other.  But families are made up of individuals with all the good and bad attributes out there.   I think people are a mix of nature and nurture but there has to be a genetic component of personality.  My brother seems to be channeling our uncle (who we never met) in ignoring his siblings, but he did step up to help our other brother when needed (after ignoring him for 7 years).  
We have this ideal of family life from movies but as you can see from this thread, people come in all varieties.  Some are thoughtful or thoughtless, generous or greedy, gregarious or introverted etc.  I think Sugarcubesea has made all the right moves and done the best that can be done.  Now it's time to accept your son.  Keep in touch with your grandson as much as possible; he needs a good role model of how a family should operate.  Keep the door open to your son, but without expectations.  
And come here to vent when needed.  It's a safe place to vent when none of us knows your family.  

Sue


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## VacationForever (Dec 15, 2017)

My husband (not my son's father) and my son do not get along.  They are both stubborn, confrontational and do not give in to each other.  We moved out of state and I go back to visit my son several times a year and whenever I want to.  The arrangement is that I will spend my son's and my birthday together every year.  So far it has worked out pretty well.  We stay home for Thanksgiving and Christmas/New Year and my son is free to come and visit with us whenever he wants (I will buy air tickets) but he does not.  My son has set aside the guest room in his house for me and that is essentially my room when I go back to see him.  He also hopes that I move in with him if my husband goes before I do.  The whole situation is not ideal but it works in keeping peace.


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