# Resale points EVER be counted towards VIP status???



## bobinmich (Oct 12, 2019)

I have purchased 364k points, all resale, at Kingsgate since last year.  I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed staying at Wyndham resorts.  Is there EVER a way that the resale points can be/would be counted towards VIP status?  
thanks, Bob


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> I have purchased 364k points, all resale, at Kingsgate since last year.  I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed staying at Wyndham resorts.  Is there EVER a way that the resale points can be/would be counted towards VIP status?
> thanks, Bob



Not now no.  In times past it was possible if you picked up certain weeks based contracts and converted them to points, but this loophole was eliminated some time ago now.  

The only way to obtain VIP status is with a developer point purchase now.  The cheapest way to obtain VIP is to use PIC along with a developer point purchase.  This is what I did in July 2018 to obtain temp VIPP and permanent VIPG.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 12, 2019)

If you buy at least 400,000 points retail, you can use all your points on silver benefits (retail and resale), except for club pass(you are limited to the number of retail points that you own). However, 400,000 retail plus 300,000 resale point will not stack to give you gold benefits.

Also, VIP benefits do not apply to club pass resorts, so if you have any interest in staying at the Worldmark properties, you are better off buying Worldmark resale than VIP.


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## dgalati (Oct 12, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Not now no.  In times past it was possible if you picked up certain weeks based contracts and converted them to points, but this loophole was eliminated some time ago now.
> 
> The only way to obtain VIP status is with a developer point purchase now.  The cheapest way to obtain VIP is to use PIC along with a developer point purchase.  This is what I did in July 2018 to obtain temp VIPP and permanent VIPG.
> 
> ...


What was the total cost going this route?


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## 55plus (Oct 12, 2019)

dgalati said:


> What was the total cost going this route?


Too much! Way too much! You could buy several big Harleys and a bunch of firearms for what is will cost.


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## dgalati (Oct 12, 2019)

55plus said:


> Too much! Way too much!


What would be considered to much! Way to much!


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## 55plus (Oct 12, 2019)

Now for Platinum, around $100K plus, back in the days before Wyndham around $30K.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2019)

55plus said:


> Too much! Way too much! You could buy several big Harleys and a bunch of firearms for what is will cost.



For us it was 27k total.  According to my calculations, which I maintain in a spreadsheet, we will surpass an equivalent resale purchase between the 8-9th year of ownership, all things being equal.  

By this I mean if we had purchased the amount of points we’re actually using solely via resale, we would be paying more for the resale points than the developer points.  This is due to two primary factors.  One, our PIC property MFs are lower than almost any Wyndham contract.  Two, we are not the typical vacationers and book 80% of our points within the VIP discount window.  The route we took isn’t for everyone in other words.  The underlying assumptions could also change, Wyndham could dump the PIC program or alter the VIP program in future years.  It’s a betting mans game in many respects.


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## dgalati (Oct 13, 2019)

I always try to travel in the 60 day 50% discount window. It Is a great way to travel If your travel plans allow for it.


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## 55plus (Oct 13, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> For us it was 27k total.  According to my calculations, which I maintain in a spreadsheet, we will surpass an equivalent resale purchase between the 8-9th year of ownership, all things being equal.
> 
> By this I mean if we had purchased the amount of points we’re actually using solely via resale, we would be paying more for the resale points than the developer points.  This is due to two primary factors.  One, our PIC property MFs are lower than almost any Wyndham contract.  Two, we are not the typical vacationers and book 80% of our points within the VIP discount window.  The route we took isn’t for everyone in other words.  The underlying assumptions could also change, Wyndham could dump the PIC program or alter the VIP program in future years.  It’s a betting mans game in many respects. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wyndham has dumbed down VIP benefits over the years. Now they can make new levels and offer the benefits they took away to the new levels.


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## dgalati (Oct 13, 2019)

55plus said:


> Wyndham has dumbed down VIP benefits over the years. Now they can make new levels and offer the benefits they took away to the new levels.


Daze and confuse. Great marketing strategy.  The Hype to buy now before levels change. Sell more points the one can use. Rent points to cover maintenance fees. Rember one fact Wyndham math never adds up.


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## Braindead (Oct 13, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Daze and confuse. Great marketing strategy.  The Hype to buy now before levels change. Sell more points the one can use. Rent points to cover maintenance fees. Rember one fact Wyndham math never adds up.


Have you ever thought about stopping the non stop- constant bashing of the hands[VIPs] that feed you cheap discounted & upgraded reservations??

Along with the company [Wyndham] that supplies the resorts that we all enjoy staying at for less than a motel room??


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 13, 2019)

Well PIC to VIP doesn't make economical sense to get VIP Gold for a little under 30k for a typical household where both parents work full time and their kids are in school. I personally can't leave 150+ kids without a teacher because I want to go on vacation during the school year. My husband can't just be on vacation all the time as a Net Admin where 5 minutes of downtime at his job can cost the company $50,000. As a teacher, I can see how behind a kid gets when they're on vacation for a week. It only makes sense if you're older/can work remote/don't have kids.


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## kaljor (Oct 14, 2019)

It is completely dependent on one's family circumstances, and in your case it seems like you've got a handle on things.  But I could suggest a different way for you to look at things.  At some point you will be empty nesters.  At some point you will both be retired.

VIP Gold does have value.  Not having to think about Housekeeping Fees or Reservation Fees gives you the freedom to take frequent short vacations.  Retirees often have almost unlimited flexibility, making it more likely that they can find reservations they would like within the discount window.

So maybe the cost of $30k for a VIP Gold is worth getting now if you think you might want it when you are empty nest retirees.  If you want it then it might be $50k.  Or $60k. Or the PIC program might be unavailable.

I'm not really trying to persuade you to go VIP now, I'm just playing devil's advocate, trying to offer another perspective.


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## bnoble (Oct 14, 2019)

Spending $30K now for something I might or might not want later isn’t something I’d be comfortable with. True, money is for spending, but I can think of lots of other options.


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## Braindead (Oct 14, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Well PIC to VIP doesn't make economical sense to get VIP Gold for a little under 30k for a typical household where both parents work full time and their kids are in school. I personally can't leave 150+ kids without a teacher because I want to go on vacation during the school year. My husband can't just be on vacation all the time as a Net Admin where 5 minutes of downtime at his job can cost the company $50,000. As a teacher, I can see how behind a kid gets when they're on vacation for a week. It only makes sense if you're older/can work remote/don't have kids.


How much vacation time do you get?? Teachers typically get 2-3 months a year.
When does a trip on vacation make economical sense to you? I’ve said many times if you look at economics of traveling on vacation instead of staying home, you’re staying home every time.

Half of the threads are dgalati relentlessly bashing Wyndham & VIPs. Give it a rest!!!!!!


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Spending $30K now for something I might or might not want later isn’t something I’d be comfortable with. True, money is for spending, but I can think of lots of other options.


Yes very true. Life happens and changes occur.  I would wait until needed. The cost and program will change but no need to spend 30k plus for something you may or maynot need.


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## Richelle (Oct 14, 2019)

55plus said:


> Wyndham has dumbed down VIP benefits over the years. Now they can make new levels and offer the benefits they took away to the new levels.



What benefits did they take away, that are being offered to new levels? I’m not sure how you know what benefits are being offered to the new levels other then what is printed on the brochure. The benefits printed on the brochure were never VIP benefits before this.  


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## 55plus (Oct 14, 2019)

Richelle said:


> What benefits did they take away, that are being offered to new levels? I’m not sure how you know what benefits are being offered to the new levels other then what is printed on the brochure. The benefits printed on the brochure were never VIP benefits before this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I stated, Wyndham "can" not will offer them in the new level. It's still unknown what benefits will be offered, but benefits will have to increase in order to make sales.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Well PIC to VIP doesn't make economical sense to get VIP Gold for a little under 30k for a typical household where both parents work full time and their kids are in school. I personally can't leave 150+ kids without a teacher because I want to go on vacation during the school year. My husband can't just be on vacation all the time as a Net Admin where 5 minutes of downtime at his job can cost the company $50,000. As a teacher, I can see how behind a kid gets when they're on vacation for a week. It only makes sense if you're older/can work remote/don't have kids.



In theory agreed, if you cannot use what you purchase, then it's probably not wise to purchase it.  This is why so many timeshare owners have a negative viewpoint of timesharing in fact, as they either financially overextend themselves, or they aren't a good match for the timesharing lifestyle IME.  There's nothing worse than buying something and continuously paying for something you can't use right?  That said, it's also pretty easy to rent your Wyndham owned points to cover MFs, so if you foresee that you will want to vacation a LOT later in life, it _may _be worth paying less now especially if you have the income to support such a purchase, which most folks won't have later in life as their earning potential declines as they approach retirement age.  We plan to vacation a LOT as we approach retirement age, we may even timeshare full time for a good part of the year, as we love the timeshare lifestyle quite frankly. 

In this respect, I think some people don't see the forest through the trees with respect to spending money on timesharing.  The longer you own a timeshare and use it, the more cost effective it becomes as you drive down the sum total of money spent across an ever increasing number of vacations taken.  For us, the decision was an easy one to make as our youngest child was almost 19 when we bought last year.  Our kids are all in college and are young adults.  Your definition of vacation assumes you are taking time away from work to use timesharing.  We use 10-12 weekend stays at timeshare locations that requires us to use almost no vacation time.  I've got 5 weeks of vacation at my job, can work remotely at will, and while my wife only has two weeks vacation right now, she is a nurse and works shift work so it is fairly easy for her to swap shifts with other nurses to free up Fridays or Mondays for us to take long weekend trips together.  We then take 1-2 weeks of full vacations each year based upon her available vacation time at present.  She will cross five years of employment with her current company and earns an extra week of vacation, which further increases our vacation options starting next year. 

Again, I've always said that our use case doesn't match up with most other timeshare owners from what I've observed.  We often want to vacation when others don't, at resorts when others don't.  I'm very introverted and have zero desire to vacation when everyone else does, at the same demand resorts and areas that everyone else does during prime season.  As a result, we can book 75-80% of our timeshare reservations in the discount window, and we usually receive free room upgrades to boot.  We are still VIPP through Sept 2020, so for us this means 50% off points for most of our reservations.  Now if I could just figure out a way to obtain permanent VIPP on the cheap.


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## Richelle (Oct 14, 2019)

55plus said:


> I stated, Wyndham "can" not will offer them in the new level. It's still unknown what benefits will be offered, but benefits will have to increase in order to make sales.



Benefits have to increase, I agree. However, there is not reason to believe they will take benefits from the existing levels and give it to the new levels. That’s not increasing benefits. That’s reducing them. They are reducing them by taking away unlimited housekeeping. However, they have not indicated the top tier will get unlimited housekeeping.  There is nothing even suggesting that they will taking away benefits and giving them to the top tier. I am not sure why you think that might be the case.  What are you biassing it on?  Just because they can?  Taking away benefits from the lower tiers to give to the upper tiers is bad business. If they did that, people would be less likely to upgrade their VIP status, if they know benefits will be taken away. Especially if they are taken away and given to top tiers. If you’re going to talk about possibilities, maybe talk about ones that might actually happen instead of trying to scare people.


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## 55plus (Oct 14, 2019)

Richelle said:


> Benefits have to increase, I agree. However, there is not reason to believe they will take benefits from the existing levels and give it to the new levels. That’s not increasing benefits. That’s reducing them. They are reducing them by taking away unlimited housekeeping. However, they have not indicated the top tier will get unlimited housekeeping.  There is nothing even suggesting that they will taking away benefits and giving them to the top tier. I am not sure why you think that might be the case.  What are you biassing it on?  Just because they can?  Taking away benefits from the lower tiers to give to the upper tiers is bad business. If they did that, people would be less likely to upgrade their VIP status, if they know benefits will be taken away. Especially if they are taken away and given to top tiers. If you’re going to talk about possibilities, maybe talk about ones that might actually happen instead of trying to scare people. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You missed the point. Wyndham has already dumbed down benefits over the years. They change their policies and reduce benefits. This has gone on since Wyndham took over. An example is, VIPP use to have unlimited guest certificates. Now Wyndham can give the benefits they reduced or eliminated to a higher level and use them as a carrot to buy into the higher level. It's all about sales. It's all about the bottom line.


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## Richelle (Oct 14, 2019)

55plus said:


> You missed the point. Wyndham has already dumbed down benefits over the years. They change their policies and reduce benefits. This has gone on since Wyndham took over. An example is, VIPP use to have unlimited guest certificates. Now Wyndham can give the benefits they reduced or eliminated to a higher level and use them as a carrot to buy into the higher level. It's all about sales. It's all about the bottom line.



Thank you for providing an example of a benefit that was taken away. I’d be willing to bet that had something to do with the mega renters abusing the system. It’s a shame they took it away, but I can’t say that I blame them. That one you would have to put squarely on the mega renters. It’s unfortunate that the actions of a few have negative consequences on the people who don’t abuse the system. That’s the reason they took away other things like the credit pool. Do you have any other examples? I genuinely want to know.  Preferably ones that were taken away for a reason that doesn’t have to do with the mega renters. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

55plus said:


> You missed the point. Wyndham has already dumbed down benefits over the years. They change their policies and reduce benefits. This has gone on since Wyndham took over. An example is, VIPP use to have unlimited guest certificates. Now Wyndham can give the benefits they reduced or eliminated to a higher level and use them as a carrot to buy into the higher level. It's all about sales. It's all about the bottom line.



Yes, this is my understanding as well.  I can certainly understand the sensitivity to walking things back only to reintroduce them later.  That said, if grandfathering is still in effect, and all indicators are that it will be in effect for Privileges, then I'm not sure I agree in entirety that current owners will have to upgrade to a higher level.  If anything, there are early indicators that current VIP owners are going to have better benefits under Privileges - without having to make an additional purchase, with the clear understanding that the entire program is subject to change of course.  For instance, all current VIPG and VIPP owners can now obtain a free upgrade to WR Diamond status - a Privileges benefit - right now.  That's a pretty good perk IMHO - as someone who uses WR points quite a bit for free hotel stays - it's meaningful to me.


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## comicbookman (Oct 14, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, this is my understanding as well.  I can certainly understand the sensitivity to walking things back only to reintroduce them later.  That said, if grandfathering is still in effect, and all indicators are that it will be in effect for Privileges, then I'm not sure I agree in entirety that current owners will have to upgrade to a higher level.  If anything, there are early indicators that current VIP owners are going to have better benefits under Privileges - without having to make an additional purchase, with the clear understanding that the entire program is subject to change of course.  For instance, all current VIPG and VIPP owners can now obtain a free upgrade to WR Diamond status - a Privileges benefit - right now.  That's a pretty good perk IMHO - as someone who uses WR points quite a bit for free hotel stays - it's meaningful to me.



Also using that Diamond status to get Diamond status at Ceasers is a new and potentially useful benefit.


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

55plus said:


> I stated, Wyndham "can" not will offer them in the new level. It's still unknown what benefits will be offered, but benefits will have to increase in order to make sales.


 Sales is what drives profits For Wyndham. Sales is also responsible for cheap resales and cheap rentals. This I am very thankful for. Without the aggressive sales tactics and half truths VIP owners would not be able to buy resale points to use at VIP discount levels.


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, this is my understanding as well.  I can certainly understand the sensitivity to walking things back only to reintroduce them later.  That said, if grandfathering is still in effect, and all indicators are that it will be in effect for Privileges, then I'm not sure I agree in entirety that current owners will have to upgrade to a higher level.  If anything, there are early indicators that current VIP owners are going to have better benefits under Privileges - without having to make an additional purchase, with the clear understanding that the entire program is subject to change of course.  For instance, all current VIPG and VIPP owners can now obtain a free upgrade to WR Diamond status - a Privileges benefit - right now.  That's a pretty good perk IMHO - as someone who uses WR points quite a bit for free hotel stays - it's meaningful to me.


I am more interested in the possible 65% discount perk that has been talked about.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

comicbookman said:


> Also using that Diamond status to get Diamond status at Ceasers is a new and potentially useful benefit.



Yep I did this as well! 


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I am more interested in the possible 65% discount perk that has been talked about.



That’s only for Founders level AFAIK, and I thought it was 60% not 65% for the discount window.


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## bobinmich (Oct 14, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> If you buy at least 400,000 points retail, you can use all your points on silver benefits (retail and resale), except for club pass(you are limited to the number of retail points that you own). However, 400,000 retail plus 300,000 resale point will not stack to give you gold benefits.
> 
> Also, VIP benefits do not apply to club pass resorts, so if you have any interest in staying at the Worldmark properties, you are better off buying Worldmark resale than VIP.




So, if you buy 1,000,000 points resale for very cheap....you can then buy 400k retail and all 1,400,000 points are ELIGBLE for the VIP discounts (point reduction, HK benefits and unlimited reservations, etc …?) IF you buy enough retail points to get you to those benefits?  Silver, gold, etc?


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## bendadin (Oct 14, 2019)

I was just told at an update that it would be 65% all reservations. He also said that the only PR that would be grandfathered were the ones that own 1.4 million already. 

So I would hesitate believing anything from him


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 14, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> So, if you buy 1,000,000 points resale for very cheap....you can then buy 400k retail and all 1,400,000 points are ELIGBLE for the VIP discounts (point reduction, HK benefits and unlimited reservations, etc …?) IF you buy enough retail points to get you to those benefits?  Silver, gold, etc?




Yes. Megarenters usually own 1,001,000 points retail to get 50% off 60 days out, unit upgrades, unlimited reservations and HK, and 30 guest certificates (an extra 15 past VIPP). The way that they do it is by buying two 3 bedroom PICs and purchasing the remaining 493,000 points for about $70,000 to get to 1,001,000 points for VIPP, then picking up a few extra million resale points at Bali Hai, Canterbury, Panama City, Grand Desert etc. (low maintenance fee resorts) and renting out all of their millions of points using the their VIPP benefits.


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## Richelle (Oct 14, 2019)

bendadin said:


> I was just told at an update that it would be 65% all reservations. He also said that the only PR that would be grandfathered were the ones that own 1.4 million already.
> 
> So I would hesitate believing anything from him



The last telesales rep I spoke to said there will be no 60% or 65% discount.  They were originally considering it, but they nixed it.  I assume they will have the same 50% discount that Platnium has.   Obviously that is subject to change too.


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## bendadin (Oct 14, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Yes. Megarenters usually own 1,001,000 points retail to get 50% off 60 days out, unit upgrades, unlimited reservations and HK, and 30 guest certificates (an extra 15 past VIPP). The way that they do it is by buying two 3 bedroom PICs and purchasing the remaining 493,000 points for about $70,000 to get to 1,001,000 points for VIPP, then picking up a few extra million resale points at Bali Hai, Canterbury, Panama City, Grand Desert etc. (low maintenance fee resorts) and renting out all of their millions of points using the their VIPP benefits.



Or regular people have ownerships that look like that and aren't mega renters. Maybe it is just being smart.


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## Richelle (Oct 14, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Yes. Megarenters usually own 1,001,000 points retail to get 50% off 60 days out, unit upgrades, unlimited reservations and HK, and 30 guest certificates (an extra 15 past VIPP). The way that they do it is by buying two 3 bedroom PICs and purchasing the remaining 493,000 points for about $70,000 to get to 1,001,000 points for VIPP, then picking up a few extra million resale points at Bali Hai, Canterbury, Panama City, Grand Desert etc. (low maintenance fee resorts) and renting out all of their millions of points using the their VIPP benefits.



They would also credit pool three years' worth of points and then sell the resale contract, so they didn't have to pay maintenance fees on those three years' worth of points.  That increased their profit margin.


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


bendadin said:


> Or regular people have ownerships that look like that and aren't mega renters. Maybe it is just being smart.


And how much does this cost the  Club by  a few VIp renters taking advantage of buying resale deeds to use with the VIP discounts. When these resale contracts are pulled from using VIP benefits like the mega renters were shut out tell me how smart you are then. Ron was blamed for costing the club members by playing the system.  A few Vip members here think that they can play it also. Make no mistake about it Wyndham has resale deeds being used as a VIP benefit on the top of their list of costly benefits to remove.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

Richelle said:


> The last telesales rep I spoke to said there will be no 60% or 65% discount.  They were originally considering it, but they nixed it.  I assume they will have the same 50% discount that Platnium has.   Obviously that is subject to change too.



Well, at least they are consistently inconsistent LOL! 


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## bendadin (Oct 14, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> And how much does this cost the  Club by  a few VIp renters taking advantage of buying resale deeds to use with the VIP discounts. When these resale contracts are pulled from using VIP benefits like the mega renters were shut out tell me how smart you are then. Ron was blamed for costing the club members by playing the system.  A few Vip members here think that they can play it also.




Are you calling ME a megarenter?

I'm just saying that it is a stretch to say if someone is Platinum, comes in with PICs, and owns at Bali Hai, Canterbury, PCB, and GD automatically makes them a megarenter.

So if I am reading this correctly, you expect my account to be shut down simply because of what I own. Hmm.


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

Richelle said:


> They would also credit pool three years' worth of points and then sell the resale contract, so they didn't have to pay maintenance fees on those three years' worth of points.  That increased their profit margin.


It was very good until Wyndham found out how many were gaming the system. I compare it to VIP owners buying millions of resale points and using them for the VIP discounts. Its only a matter of time before Wyndham shuts this abuse down. How much does this abuse of resale points cost all Wyndham owners?


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 14, 2019)

Richelle said:


> The last telesales rep I spoke to said there will be no 60% or 65% discount.  They were originally considering it, but they nixed it.  I assume they will have the same 50% discount that Platnium has.   Obviously that is subject to change too.



You know it’s interesting, I have an older screenshot of the original Privileges brochure that showed the 60% for Founders right in the brochure.  The current brochure no longer lists this under the Founders section:







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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

bendadin said:


> And how much does this cost the  Club by  a few VIp renters taking advantage of buying resale deeds to use with the VIP discounts. When these resale contracts are pulled from using VIP benefits like the mega renters were shut out tell me how smart you are then. Ron was blamed for costing the club members by playing the system.  A few Vip members here think that they can play it also.




Are you calling ME a megarenter?

I'm just saying that it is a stretch to say if someone is Platinum, comes in with PICs, and owns at Bali Hai, Canterbury, PCB, and GD automatically makes them a megarenter.

So if I am reading this correctly, you expect my account to be shut down simply because of what I own. Hmm.[/QUOTE]
Not talking about renting. Its the abuse of buying resale points millions and using them with developer purchased VIP benefits.  Wyndham has this abuse on the radar to fix. Has been abused  and is costing all club members as did the cancel and rebook and stripping of deeds.


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## dgalati (Oct 14, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> So, if you buy 1,000,000 points resale for very cheap....you can then buy 400k retail and all 1,400,000 points are ELIGBLE for the VIP discounts (point reduction, HK benefits and unlimited reservations, etc …?) IF you buy enough retail points to get you to those benefits?  Silver, gold, etc?


Yes this is correct. Thats until Wyndham puts a end to this abuse of VIP benefits that cost all club members. Clearly a abuse of VIP benefits  costing all club members.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 14, 2019)

I think they are going to roll that out as a change and only let points that count towards VIP be used for VIP privileges. Another reason why I don't care to buy retail points; I see it coming. It's just like cancel/rebook and unlimited GCs. It can be easily changed within the system. They already have a cap for Club Pass bookings where it can only be up to the amount of retail points that you have. They could just implement it to all bookings where they pull points from your retail contracts first and once you've used those all up in a year, it will then pull points from your resale deeds and not allow VIP benefits.


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## paxsarah (Oct 14, 2019)

dgalati said:


> It was very good until Wyndham found out how many were gaming the system. I compare it to VIP owners buying millions of resale points and using them for the VIP discounts. Its only a matter of time before Wyndham shuts this abuse down. How much does this abuse of resale points cost all Wyndham owners?



VIPs (not only megarenters, though also megarenters) were doing this all through the account freeze crisis and the eventual changes to the credit pool and cancel/rebook that came through in 2017. Wyndham surely was aware of it then, and could have chosen to shut it down with all of the other changes they made at that time. They didn't. If they considered it abuse, they could have done something about it at any point. And they still might (because it's Wyndham and everything is subject to change), but the scale of the "abuse" you're describing is nothing like the tens (hundreds?) of millions of points that were being pulled from the future into the present and then abandoned as stripped contracts.


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## bendadin (Oct 15, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> You know it’s interesting, I have an older screenshot of the original Privileges brochure that showed the 60% for Founders right in the brochure.  The current brochure no longer lists this under the Founders section:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well then sales can "interject" what they like. I've heard 60 and 65. I've also heard all inclusive on every day. Right. I just heard that they were working on airport clearance for owners. I also heard that PR should divest and buy CWA because it will suit owners better.

I hope that some information comes out at the owner's meeting. The misinformation out there is getting ridiculous.


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## 55plus (Oct 15, 2019)

bendadin said:


> Well then sales can "interject" what they like. I've heard 60 and 65. I've also heard all inclusive on every day. Right. I just heard that they were working on airport clearance for owners. I also heard that PR should divest and buy CWA because it will suit owners better. I hope that some information comes out at the owner's meeting. The misinformation out there is getting ridiculous.


I heard different level owners will wear colored capes to ID which level they own, with the highest level owners wearing purple capes to show they are at the highest end of the Wyndham caste system. Those without capes are not privileged and have to carry the privileged owners luggage. It's just what I heard, or maybe dreamt.


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## bobinmich (Oct 15, 2019)




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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Yes this is correct. Thats until Wyndham puts a end to this abuse of VIP benefits that cost all club members. Clearly a abuse of VIP benefits  costing all club members.



The changes they made to combat mega renters affected everyone, but the target was definitely the mega renters. The amount of people that would be affected by resale changes would be much larger. They also have to be careful about making resale points even less desirable. The harder it is to unload a resale contract (because it has to many restrictions), the more people would walk away leaving Wyndham and the resorts holding the bag. Ovations can only take so much inventory before they will have to start rejecting or being more selective. From what I hear, Diamond is even harder to unload on the resale market then Wyndham is because of their restrictions on resale.  If they make changes it might be more like we cannot use them at new resorts that open up. Or we cannot use them with new programs like they did with Wyndham rewards. Also, if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale, it would make VIP less desirable too. There will be fewer willing to upgrade or buy in. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 15, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I think they are going to roll that out as a change and only let points that count towards VIP be used for VIP privileges. Another reason why I don't care to buy retail points; I see it coming. It's just like cancel/rebook and unlimited GCs. It can be easily changed within the system. They already have a cap for Club Pass bookings where it can only be up to the amount of retail points that you have. They could just implement it to all bookings where they pull points from your retail contracts first and once you've used those all up in a year, it will then pull points from your resale deeds and not allow VIP benefits.



Anything is possible, but taking this route would inevitably upset the segment of owners who have collectively and historically made the largest dollar investments into Wyndham over time.  Doing anything that upsets your most loyal segment of owners is not good business practice no matter how you slice it.  This is why the statement "subject to change" while legally accurate with respect to the entire VIP program, which could include termination of the entire program, is highly unlikely. 

Since I'm in a sharing mood, what I think will happen is that Wyndham will come up with a way to allow resale contract benefits to stay intact for VIP owners, while altering the structure used for resale only owners over time.  What I'm about to say is going to be a bit controversial, but I think something along this line will come into existence in the foreseeable future.  Long story short, Wyndham will create a new trust, similar to CWA, that will start to hold resale contracts and deeds.  Call it CWR (Club Wyndham Resale) for sake of argument.  When resale only purchasers file the paperwork with Wyndham to transfer ownership, the deed(s) associated with that resale contract will be transferred into the CWR trust.  The CWR trust can then have limits placed upon it when trading into CWP or any of the other trusts that already exist.  Initially this new trust will not have any limits placed upon it when trading into CWP other than the current limits already in place for resale contract owners - such as no Club Pass or Plus Partners program access for example.

Moving forward, what this allows Wyndham to do is to segment resale inventory via the new trust - and to control what other inventory resale owners can access over time.  This same approach would also allow VIP owners - who also hold resale contracts - to keep their VIP privileges attached to resale contracts - because the VIP resale contracts will not be transferred into the CWR trust - the inventory attached to these contracts will stay intact within the current trusts (CWA/CWS).  Here's the controversial part. We've all heard rumors that Wyndham may place additional limitations on resale owners.  Much like Disney is now placing limits on resale, and Hilton has started down this same path.  Wyndham, IMHO, _will_ follow suit, it's simply a question of how and when.  Let's assume for a moment that 50% of Wyndham ownership is now resale only owners.  What this approach would allow Wyndham to do is to then start placing limits on what inventory CWR can access in the other trusts and can even potentially alter the trading power for CWR into CWP.  Would Wyndham do something like this?  Very gradually over time would be the only way it could work.  The way they would probably start doing this is to draw a line in the sand and say that after a certain date, all new resale contracts processed by Wyndham will migrate into CWR, while current resale holders will stay intact in the current trusts.  This would start moving net new resale inventory into CWR that would grow over time.  What Wyndham may choose to do is to limit resale _only _owners to only the inventory available within the CWR trust, while the developer points owners can access all inventory across all trusts.  If we assume that the ownership is 50/50 today for sake of argument, that means that developer points owners would have access to 100% of the available inventory - while resale owners only have access to 50% of the available inventory - and only inventory owned by other resale owners.  There are lots of caveats here - but something like this is what I would at least consider doing if I were Wyndham - and wanted to truly start to place more value on owners who purchase developer points vs resale only owners and to gradually head in a different direction over time by gradually placing more limits on resale owners.

Using the above listed model, Wyndham could also then easily allow for VIP owners with resale contracts to also use their resale points with Club Pass and other trusts/programs, while ensuring that resale only owners remain restricted since the CWR trust - because the rulesets are enforced more simply and more easily at the trust level - unilaterally - instead of the current system where the rulesets are dependent upon the contract flag itself (if the contract is flagged resale).

This is something that would need to occur very gradually as doing so too quickly would result in resale owners dumping their ownership enmasse.  But over time an approach like this would place more value on purchasing developer points - because you would get access to 100% of the system - while also devaluing resale ownership - because resale only owners would only receive access to a minority of the inventory in the system over time.  This is what Disney has already started down the path of doing, and Hilton is not far behind from what I've heard.


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## 55plus (Oct 15, 2019)

I don't think Wyndham can restrict a sale. They manage the locations, not outright own. And unless a deed specifically states something that restricts a sale it would be for first right of refusal. Either way, you can't be force to own something forever. Sales weasels tried that tactic when they were pushing Pathways as a way out.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2019)

They can limit resale in an EXTREMELY easy way without having to make a new trust. All they have to do is create a new ownership fee and change the transfer fee to a much higher number. 

Example:
New membership: $5,000
Transfer Fee:$2,500

That would making purchasing resale cost a min of $7,500 with no benefits. It's much easier to create/increase a fee then to mess with inventory.


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## bnoble (Oct 15, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> what I think will happen is that Wyndham will come up with a way to allow resale contract benefits to stay intact for VIP owners, while altering the structure used for resale only owners over time


They could have done this when creating CWA. The template in Diamond was already there, in that resales in that system revert only to the underlying colleciton/resort, and only a new developer purchase can requalify them.  I can't remember if Marriott's points product was before or after CWA, but it works the same way too.. In fact, I am stills surprised Wyndham didn't structure CWA this way, but it seems like it is only a  matter of time.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 15, 2019)

bnoble said:


> They could have done this when creating CWA. The template in Diamond was already there, in that resales in that system revert only to the underlying colleciton/resort, and only a new developer purchase can requalify them.  I can't remember if Marriott's points product was before or after CWA, but it works the same way too.. In fact, I am stills surprised Wyndham didn't structure CWA this way, but it seems like it is only a  matter of time.



I’m not familiar with Diamond.  So to be clear, any Diamond resale contract is only valid for the deeded resort it’s from and/or the resort collection it is tied to?  


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## dgalati (Oct 15, 2019)

I have been told by many on the inside at Wyndham that the day of resale deeds being able to be used with VIP a discounts is about to be discontinued. The costs to the club and its owners has been compared to the days of a few mega renters buying millions of resale points then stripping deeds and benefiting from the 3 years of use without paying developer price for the points.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I have been told by many on the inside at Wyndham that the day of resale deeds being able to be used with VIP a discounts is about to be discontinued. The costs to the club and its owners has been compared to the days of a few mega renters buying millions of resale points then stripping deeds and benefiting from the 3 years of use without paying developer price for the points.



Wyndham has been too shady in the past for me to trust making a developer purchase. I like the idea of just using resale for as long as I can until I either can't enjoy it anymore or its been restricted to an unusable level, then defaulting or giving it back. If they do something that makes resale only accounts unusable like Diamond did, they will most likely grandfather the current resale owners. I can't imagine any resale owners keeping their membership if the points are only good at the resorts they are deeded to. Wyndham can't handle having a massive amount of people defaulting by not grandfathering us in.


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## 55plus (Oct 15, 2019)

Richelle said:


> The changes they made to combat mega renters affected everyone, but the target was definitely the mega renters. The amount of people that would be affected by resale changes would be much larger. They also have to be careful about making resale points even less desirable. The harder it is to unload a resale contract (because it has to many restrictions), the more people would walk away leaving Wyndham and the resorts holding the bag. Ovations can only take so much inventory before they will have to start rejecting or being more selective. From what I hear, Diamond is even harder to unload on the resale market then Wyndham is because of their restrictions on resale.  If they make changes it might be more like we cannot use them at new resorts that open up. Or we cannot use them with new programs like they did with Wyndham rewards. Also, if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale, it would make VIP less desirable too. There will be fewer willing to upgrade or buy in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





cbyrne1174 said:


> Wyndham has been too shady in the past for me to trust making a developer purchase. I like the idea of just using resale for as long as I can until I either can't enjoy it anymore or its been restricted to an unusable level, then defaulting or giving it back. If they do something that makes resale only accounts unusable like Diamond did, they will most likely grandfather the current resale owners. I can't imagine any resale owners keeping their membership if the points are only good at the resorts they are deeded to. Wyndham can't handle having a massive amount of people defaulting by not grandfathering us in.


This would create havoc for the HOAs, especially at the less desirable resorts. It would drive up maintenance fees to cover the maintenance costs of those who walked away.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> They can limit resale in an EXTREMELY easy way without having to make a new trust. All they have to do is create a new ownership fee and change the transfer fee to a much higher number.
> 
> Example:
> New membership: $5,000
> ...



If they do that, it would make resale even more undesirable and therefor harder for people to get rid of. Once Ovations has their full and starts rejecting requests, people will start to walk away. Marriott has done the high fee thing but they have less inventory and less resorts, so there is not as much on the market. I’m willing to bet that the people buying Marriott resale already own Marriott. They already have an investment in Marriott and are looking to expand their ownership and willing to pay the fee to do it. Either way, Wyndham cannot get away with that model. There is simply too much inventory in the resale market. I’m not talking just Wyndham. I mean the entire resale market is huge. There is a lot of other systems out there that sellers have to contend with.   


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## kaljor (Oct 15, 2019)

55plus said:


> This would create havoc for the HOAs, especially at the less desirable resorts. It would drive up maintenance fees to cover the maintenance costs of those who walked away.



Which in turn would spur more of the left behind owners to abandon their ownership creating a death spiral for those resorts.


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## bnoble (Oct 16, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I’m not familiar with Diamond.  So to be clear, any Diamond resale contract is only valid for the deeded resort it’s from and/or the resort collection it is tied to?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That’s my understanding, yes. In other words only the underlying resort/collection is deeded. Participation in The Club is not.



kaljor said:


> Which in turn would spur more of the left behind owners to abandon their ownership creating a death spiral for those resorts.


Except that hasn’t seemed to be the case.  At the very least, such inventory just gets recycled back into the sales arm. The developer can magically re-qualify anything. They just won't for a resale-only buyer.


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## TheHolleys87 (Oct 16, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Anything is possible, but taking this route would inevitably upset the segment of owners who have collectively and historically made the largest dollar investments into Wyndham over time.  Doing anything that upsets your most loyal segment of owners is not good business practice no matter how you slice it.  This is why the statement "subject to change" while legally accurate with respect to the entire VIP program, which could include termination of the entire program, is highly unlikely.
> 
> Since I'm in a sharing mood, what I think will happen is that Wyndham will come up with a way to allow resale contract benefits to stay intact for VIP owners, while altering the structure used for resale only owners over time.  What I'm about to say is going to be a bit controversial, but I think something along this line will come into existence in the foreseeable future.  Long story short, Wyndham will create a new trust, similar to CWA, that will start to hold resale contracts and deeds.  Call it CWR (Club Wyndham Resale) for sake of argument.  *When resale only purchasers file the paperwork with Wyndham to transfer ownership, the deed(s) associated with that resale contract will be transferred into the CWR trust.  *The CWR trust can then have limits placed upon it when trading into CWP or any of the other trusts that already exist.  Initially this new trust will not have any limits placed upon it when trading into CWP other than the current limits already in place for resale contract owners - such as no Club Pass or Plus Partners program access for example.
> 
> ...



Just a question re the bolded statement - if someone with developer points then buys a contract that’s been transferred to the CWR trust, do you think Wyndham would transfer it back to the CWP trust? Or would a given contract be “stuck” in CWR? I assume that if it could move from CWP to CWR it could move back the other way but want to confirm you see it that way.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Except that hasn’t seemed to be the case.  At the very least, such inventory just gets recycled back into the sales arm. The developer can magically re-qualify anything. They just won't for a resale-only buyer.



Yes but at one point (not sure if this is still the case) Diamond was allowing owners to bring their resale points back into the Club and use them outside the collection, provided they buy half the amount of points retail. So if you had 10,000 resale, if you bought 5,000 retail, you would have 15,000 to use in any of the collections. If Wyndham did that, maybe they’d be able to get away with limiting resale.  Maybe.  I don’t know if that’s still the case. If they stopped that, it might hurt sales. From what I have read, Diamond is not easy to unload. Harder then Wyndham, because of the restrictions.  I think they have a deedback program too which probably helps, but if it got overwhelmed, I’m sure they would restrict it or start rejecting requests. 




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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 16, 2019)

TheHolleys87 said:


> Just a question re the bolded statement - if someone with developer points then buys a contract that’s been transferred to the CWR trust, do you think Wyndham would transfer it back to the CWP trust? Or would a given contract be “stuck” in CWR? I assume that if it could move from CWP to CWR it could move back the other way but want to confirm you see it that way.



Just like today, inventory can be added and removed from the trusts.  Inventory is added and removed from CWA on an ongoing basis.  Moving inventory from CWR to CWS or CWA would not be a big deal as a result - in the scenario I outlined.


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## Haydekurniawati (Oct 28, 2019)

Hello all, I am fairly new to timesharing. Have been Wyndham owner for over 5 years. Now I am on the crossroad to purchase from developer, offered:
1. 105k CWA points, ability to consolidate my 2 deeded resorts of Palm Are 84k points and Ocean Walk 105k points into CWA, which in turn will lower my maintenance fee. With this purchase, they told me that I will be a VIP Gold (since I also have 2 PIC plus). All for the price of $16575.

2. Resale of traditional deeded resort of 105k pt for only total of $2500 with transfer fees, closing cost, etc.

Obviously my wallet will choose the second option. But when I mentioned to the guy from WVO telesales (corporate team) about my decision to bring in the resale points, he mentioned that those resale points will not qualify me to get VIP benefit and I will not be able to consolidate them all to CWA.

Please help!

Hayde


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## bendadin (Oct 28, 2019)

I would go for #1 IF AND ONLY IF those PICs don't fall off because you are trading in a contract. Trading in 2 contracts to end up with 294k CWA is absolutely fair. Your MF aren't particularly low to begin with but CWA is 5.99/k. 

A resale for $2500 is not really a good deal unless it is coming from Wyndham and counts. I imagine that it is not, though.


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## Richelle (Oct 28, 2019)

Haydekurniawati said:


> Hello all, I am fairly new to timesharing. Have been Wyndham owner for over 5 years. Now I am on the crossroad to purchase from developer, offered:
> 1. 105k CWA points, ability to consolidate my 2 deeded resorts of Palm Are 84k points and Ocean Walk 105k points into CWA, which in turn will lower my maintenance fee. With this purchase, they told me that I will be a VIP Gold (since I also have 2 PIC plus). All for the price of $16575.
> 
> 2. Resale of traditional deeded resort of 105k pt for only total of $2500 with transfer fees, closing cost, etc.
> ...



I agree that $2,500 is not a good deal for 105,000. Just watch eBay. This time of year, prices are much lower. If you watch Timeshare Nation, they usually get CWA contracts 1 or 2 times a month. TN points are 100% free to you. 

The timeshare sales guy is correct that resale will not count towards VIP status and as far as I know, they won’t take them on trade. 

Your maintenance fees for the new points (including the 105,000 you have to buy to do the trade) will be $1,937 a year or $161.45 a month. That includes the program fee. As mentioned by Bendadin, CWA is $5.99 per 1,000 points. The program fee is currently 60 cents per 1,000 points bringing it up to $6.59 per 1,000 points. 105k+105k+84k= 294k points. 294 times $6.59 is $1,937.46. 

I’m guessing that is more then what you are paying now in maintenance fees. Your base rate for the maintenance fees may go down, but because you’re adding additional points, the overall cost goes up. None of this includes the maintenance fees on your PIC weeks. 

IF you can use Gold VIP benefits and IF you can use all those points, then the whole deal might be worth it. Don’t assume you’ll always get discounts and upgrade. Most of mine (as Gold VIP) have been upgraded, but it’s usually one bedrooms to two bedrooms. Most discounts happen during high season.  I did get (2) two bedrooms (at a discount) upgraded to 3 bedrooms during prime season, but that was not at the most popular resort in the area. I wouldn’t count on that in most cases. My point is, don’t make discounts and upgrades a deciding factor to go Gold VIP. Consider them as just bonuses. If you travel a lot during prime season and book two or three bedrooms, your chances of getting upgraded get much smaller then someone who booked a one bedroom.   Look at the other Gold benefits and decide if those are worth $16k to you. I do not regret going Gold VIP. I get a lot of use out of the benefits. Sure, the $35k total I paid for VIP Gold would buy a lot of housekeeping credits, reservations credits, and guest certificates. If you try running the numbers, VIP Gold will likely never get a ROI.  So don’t try to justify it with numbers. It never works. If the benefits are worth that much to you, and you can afford it, go for it. 

Oh and don’t factor in renting points to offset costs. There are a lot of people doing that and Platinum owners provide the beat deals. Never buy points with the thought that you’ll offset the costs by renting. You’ll be competing with people like me who don’t care about making a profit. I charge just enough to pay the maintenance fees on the points I don’t use. I don’t rent often. 


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## bnoble (Oct 28, 2019)

Both of those things are true. They will not qualify you for VIP, and they will not be moved into CWA. The question is whether or not those things are worth the extra $14K you'd be paying for them.  Also, be sure that you are *permanent* VIP Gold, and not just because of bonus points.


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## Arb (Oct 28, 2019)

comicbookman said:


> Also using that Diamond status to get Diamond status at Ceasers is a new and potentially useful benefit.


How can VIPG get a free upgrade to Diamond status?


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## Richelle (Oct 28, 2019)

Arb said:


> How can VIPG get a free upgrade to Diamond status?



Sign up for a Wyndham rewards account and include your member number. It should give you instant Diamond status. Once that is done, go to Caesar’s rewards and look for the link to match status. 


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## Haydekurniawati (Oct 29, 2019)

WOW..thanks for all the great advise guys!!. 
Richelle, you are so thorough. Thank you so much I really appreciate it!



Richelle said:


> I agree that $2,500 is not a good deal for 105,000. Just watch eBay. This time of year, prices are much lower. If you watch Timeshare Nation, they usually get CWA contracts 1 or 2 times a month. TN points are 100% free to you.
> 
> The timeshare sales guy is correct that resale will not count towards VIP status and as far as I know, they won’t take them on trade.
> 
> ...


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## Richelle (Oct 29, 2019)

Haydekurniawati said:


> WOW..thanks for all the great advise guys!!.
> Richelle, you are so thorough. Thank you so much I really appreciate it!



No problem. Happy to help. 


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

Richelle said:


> Sign up for a Wyndham rewards account and include your member number. It should give you instant Diamond status. Once that is done, go to Caesar’s rewards and look for the link to match status.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hello Richelle, Could you elaborate? I have had Gold Status with Wyndham Rewards since I signed up for the credit card (no annual fee) in February 2018. I do not have $75 Annual Fee card 
By 'member number', I assume you mean Club Wyndham member number and 'Diamond Status' refers to the status in Wyndham Rewards. Where exactly do I enter the member number? Shouldn't it be there somewhere already? I am not able to find it. I am a VIP-Platinum owner and none of the presentations I have attended ever touched upon this. I just binged Caesar's rewards and see that Wyndham Rewards has a linkage with Caesar's. 
Sorry for so many ignorant questions! Thank you.


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## Richelle (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Hello Richelle, Could you elaborate? I have had Gold Status with Wyndham Rewards since I signed up for the credit card (no annual fee) in February 2018. I do not have $75 Annual Fee card
> By 'member number', I assume you mean Club Wyndham member number and 'Diamond Status' refers to the status in Wyndham Rewards. Where exactly do I enter the member number? Shouldn't it be there somewhere already? I am not able to find it. I am a VIP-Platinum owner and none of the presentations I have attended ever touched upon this. I just binged Caesar's rewards and see that Wyndham Rewards has a linkage with Caesar's.
> Sorry for so many ignorant questions! Thank you.



I think the link was posted but it probably got buried. Go to the link below. It will ask you to login. Use your Wyndham Rewards login. It will later ask you for your Club Wyndham member number. Make sure you include the zeros at the beginning of your member number. The link below was grabbed direct from Club Wyndham’s website. So if this one doesn’t work for you, log into your owner portal, and on the main page is link to the announcement. It’s titled “Add an element of awesome to your rewards”. 


https://www.wyndhamhotels.com/wyndham-rewards/claim-diamond/cwreachdiamond


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

Wow! As easy as that! I got the Diamond following your link! I have to educate myself as to what Diamond will get me! 
I have never used Caesar's before. I must do some research. I guess I will sign up for Caesar's Rewards now and get the match! 
Thanks a lot for your help!


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## tschwa2 (Nov 27, 2019)

Richelle said:


> Yes but at one point (not sure if this is still the case) Diamond was allowing owners to bring their resale points back into the Club and use them outside the collection, provided they buy half the amount of points retail. So if you had 10,000 resale, if you bought 5,000 retail, you would have 15,000 to use in any of the collections. If Wyndham did that, maybe they’d be able to get away with limiting resale.  Maybe.  I don’t know if that’s still the case. If they stopped that, it might hurt sales. From what I have read, Diamond is not easy to unload. Harder then Wyndham, because of the restrictions.  I think they have a deedback program too which probably helps, but if it got overwhelmed, I’m sure they would restrict it or start rejecting requests.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Diamond's deedback program currently charges $1000 per contract and if you did not purchase from the developer you aren't eligible at all for the deedback program.  They have done everything they can to restrict the resale market.


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