# Wyndham ownership "free giveaways" --- why the increase?



## theo (Apr 3, 2015)

I no longer own within Wyndham and don't plan to again in the future, as Wyndham timeshare facilities basically don't exist at all in my geographic area of  interest. 
That observation entirely aside, I see that there seems to be a perceptible "uptick" in "free giveaways" of Wyndham points ownerships in recent months, including right here in TUG's own Bargain Deals forum. Several more have appeared in just the past few days there alone, all thus far unclaimed. 

I'm just curious if Wyndham has implemented recent changes or other (...ahem) "program improvements" that have been impetus for the apparent increase in free Wyndham ownership "giveaways"? Is it perhaps a reflection on Wyndham accepting "deedbacks" themselves? I have no idea personally, am just idly curious as a now-former Wyndham owner watching from a distance.


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## ace2000 (Apr 3, 2015)

theo said:


> Several more have appeared in just the past few days there alone, all thus far unclaimed.



I'm not sure I've noticed the increase of sellers.  I only see a couple of individuals selling in the Bargain Deals over the past week.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just haven't noticed what you're seeing here.  

I've been browsing for a Wyndham points contract to one particular resort, and if anything, I'd probably be more likely to believe that prices have increased a bit over the past year or so.  Not a whole lot of increase though, and I still see lots of smaller contracts available for less than $100.


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## ronparise (Apr 3, 2015)

The change I've seen recently is a sharp upswing in prices and reduction in supply. At least for the 300k and larger udi contracts I want

I'm bidding more than a penny a point at this time and getting shut out


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## Diamondave (Apr 3, 2015)

*I'm with Ron....*

I agree with Ron, there has been a very noticable increase in pricing, and only about a 1/4 of the inventory (referrencing ebay). Late last year, any given day there were at least 175-200 listings, now only 50-60. I don't have any official mothership gossip to explain it, as we bailed on an opportunity to make a not-so-fast $80 at Emerald Grande last month. Silly me....


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## ronparise (Apr 3, 2015)

Diamondave said:


> I don't have any official mothership gossip to explain it,



I have an explanation 

As Pogo used to say.. We have met the enemy and it is us


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## markb53 (Apr 3, 2015)

theo said:


> I no longer own within Wyndham and don't plan to again in the future, as Wyndham timeshare facilities basically don't exist at all in my geographic area of  interest.
> That observation entirely aside, I see that there seems to be a perceptible "uptick" in "free giveaways" of Wyndham points ownerships in recent months, including right here in TUG's own Bargain Deals forum. Several more have appeared in just the past few days there alone, all thus far unclaimed.
> 
> I'm just curious if Wyndham has implemented recent changes or other (...ahem) "program improvements" that have been impetus for the apparent increase in free Wyndham ownership "giveaways"? Is it perhaps a reflection on Wyndham accepting "deedbacks" themselves? I have no idea personally, am just idly curious as a now-former Wyndham owner watching from a distance.



I think you might be referring to the 3 Wyndham Ocean Ridge contracts that showed up on the bargain  deals in the last few days. Ocean Ridge generally gets no bids on eBay either. That is because you don't need ARP to go there. There is plenty of availability during prime season at 10 months. And the maintenance fees are extremely high at nearly $10 per 1000 point.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## bnoble (Apr 3, 2015)

Mark makes a good point: not all Wyndham deeds are created equal.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 3, 2015)

I believe Wyndham accepting points contracts back with 3 years of FREE usage for the Developer Brought points ... but they are taking ALL the contracts without the $299 PER CONTRACT FEE... actually, without any fees.

Ron, I agree ... resale buyers have cut somewhat into Wyndham's developer sales. Wyndham started out marketing to union members, then selling to middle Americans via sample vacation packages and totally, enjoying repeat family sales and extended family sales (IMHO). The internet 10 years ago, mainly effected "some" buyers who found eBay or who travelled with laptops. The Apple & Google *cell phone *internet searches must have KILLED their hard sell numbers (again, IMHO) in the past 3-5 years - not even getting people to sign.

Now, taking back the Wyndham deeds (instead of feeding the eBay inventory) has raised the resale prices ... and the volume is down also. Will that totally kill off the MAJOR eBay companies (the post card companies)? Not likely as there are a TON of other timeshare resorts NOT associated with Wyndham. 

But financially, the balance COULD tip where the Wyndham developer buyers are offered MORE benefits over the resale owners.

The major advantage in the numbers game is ... without ROFR, Wyndham is getting CHEAP, CHEAP inventory back - lots of it.


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## comicbookman (Apr 3, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> I believe Wyndham accepting points contracts back with 3 years of FREE usage for the Developer Brought points ... but they are taking ALL the contracts without the $299 PER CONTRACT FEE... actually, without any fees.
> 
> Ron, I agree ... resale buyers have cut somewhat into Wyndham's developer sales. Wyndham started out marketing to union members, then selling to middle Americans via sample vacation packages and totally, enjoying repeat family sales and extended family sales (IMHO). The internet 10 years ago, mainly effected "some" buyers who found eBay or who travelled with laptops. The Apple & Google *cell phone *internet searches must have KILLED their hard sell numbers (again, IMHO) in the past 3-5 years - not even getting people to sign.
> 
> ...



Not only are they getting inventory cheap, since they are a large owner, the extra MF costs that result from Viking ship operations and foreclosures costs them money as well.  So they get cheap inventory, reduce costs (which benefits other owners as well) and give people a way out.  A win all the way around, even for resale owners who do not get the free usage, but do get to wash their hands of the obligations.


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## theo (Apr 3, 2015)

markb53 said:


> I think you might be referring to the 3 Wyndham Ocean Ridge contracts that showed up on the bargain  deals in the last few days. <snip>



Actually, I refer to more than just those few you mention on TUG. I've also directly received (unsolicited) offers of other free Wyndham ownerships within just the past 48 hours, including several in Colorado (at Pagosa Springs and another CO Wyndham whose name I've forgotten --- I already deleted that email). There were others too. I think I somehow still remain on some email lists from a past "Wyndham giveaway" of my own and / or my past (limited) participation in a Wyndham-owner BBS. 

Maybe the "free Wyndhams" I keep seeing isn't a pattern. I know that Ron Parise keeps on repeating, ad nauseam, that "Wyndham is increasing in value", but with all due respect Ron is so heavily "personally invested" in Wyndham that I take his perhaps "subjective optimism" with a grain of salt.  I see free Wyndham giveaways on any and every day of the week, so I'll assume this alleged value increase is now up to to the higher end of zero rather than still being down at the lower end of zero.  

My real question remains unanswered; aside from their apparently new position on accepting "deedbacks", has Wyndham adopted *other* "program changes" recently? 
I can still very clearly recall (wasn't it in March, 2009?) Wyndham policy changes which radically (and permanently) altered owners' temporary points transfer ability. 
I am essentially (...still) wondering if any such comparable (...ahem) "improvements" in Wyndham policy or program have occurred more recently. 

Again, it's just idle curiousity from afar in my case. With or without all the "free offers" of Wyndhams and / or any Wyndham policy changes, I'm long out of Wyndham, with no intention of returning; it all really has absolutely no impact on me one way or the other.


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## ace2000 (Apr 3, 2015)

theo said:


> My real question remains unanswered; aside from their apparently new position on accepting "deedbacks", has Wyndham adopted *other* "program changes" recently?
> I can still very clearly recall (was it March, 2009?) Wyndham policy changes which radically (and permanently) altered owners' temporary points transfer ability.
> I am essentially (...still) wondering if any such comparable "improvements" in Wyndham policy or program have occurred more recently.



Nothing that I know of that would affect the casual owners (others are welcome to give their thoughts here also).  The mega-renters are concerned about a few things that might happen, but I don't think you're wondering about those possible changes.


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## ronparise (Apr 3, 2015)

Theo, I sold a ton of what I had last year and I  sold another 5 million points since the beginning of the year Most of that I got for next to nothing.   Those days are Im afraid over.   Your thinking that im trying to push prices up makes sense, but Im not, (Im not nearly big enough to push Wyndham around.)   And Im trying to replace some of what I sold  now.  No doubt Im betting on a rising market, but Im not making it happen. Im riding the wave or following the trend.  

Feel free to forward  those offers to me..Im buying 300000 point plus udi contracts. with the intent to sell them next year at even higher prices.

And, No,,no changes to the program like the effort a few years back where they tried to control the mega renters with increased fees, and the end of owner to owner transfers of points

I think whats going on now is another attempt to control the mega renters, but this time by pushing prices up enough to tempt us to sell out, and high enough to discourage anyone new from entering the market


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## alexadeparis (Apr 3, 2015)

This is my personal experience and observation only. The newer resorts opening up in recent years that I want to visit, along with changes to my vacation preferences (that have nothing to do with Wyndham), require more points than I have right now (154k odd). So I must either acquire more points or start renting from the Mega renter Ron Parise types. 

Personally, I am only interested in odd contracts because I have other timeshares too. I wanted a contract at my existing resort for ARP. I have been bidding on all the odd contracts at my resort on EBay since October. I, like Ron, have set a limit at one penny a point because that is the top end of what I am willing to pay and I have bought and sold other Wyndham contracts for far less than that in the past 7 years. I have also been shut out of these on EBay for the past six months. So,at least at my resort, prices are going up, not dramatically,but to more than what I am willing to pay, and they do seem to be scarcer also. 

Finally, someone posted in bargain deals for the unit I was looking for (210k odd) at my resort and that transfer is now is process, with me just paying the transfer fee. I am happy and the seller is happy. Had I decided to go the other route of totally divesting myself of Wyndham and giving my unit away, I would think the ideal time to list it here, or anywhere, would be when prices are going up and/or stock is scarce. I am not sure if the deed back program is making the difference in inventory, but if they take it back and still give use of a few years' points, it very well might be making the difference in available inventory. 

That's my take on it.


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## bnoble (Apr 3, 2015)

> aside from their apparently new position on accepting "deedbacks", has Wyndham adopted other "program changes" recently?


Nothing that I'm aware of, and no discussion of anything here, OT, or on the Wyndham owners forum.


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## Bigrob (Apr 3, 2015)

theo said:


> I know that Ron Parise keeps on repeating, ad infinitum, that "Wyndham's are increasing in value", but with all due respect Ron is so heavily "personally invested" in Wyndham that I take his "perhaps subjective optimism" with a grain of salt.



Actually, it really doesn't matter whether you believe Ron or anyone else who says Wyndham is "increasing in value". One could readily assess that by looking at the market. Just like the real estate market, it doesn't matter what you think your house is worth. It only matters what the market thinks it's worth. And right now, the market thinks they are worth more than they were this time last year. One only has to look at recent sold prices for points contracts versus the same price points a year or two ago.


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## CO skier (Apr 4, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Actually, it really doesn't matter whether you believe Ron or anyone else who says Wyndham is "increasing in value". One could readily assess that by looking at the market. Just like the real estate market, it doesn't matter what you think your house is worth. It only matters what the market thinks it's worth. And right now, the market thinks they are worth more than they were this time last year. One only has to look at recent sold prices for points contracts versus the same price points a year or two ago.



So this year's "free giveaways" (the subject of the OP) were less than free last year and prices have risen to zero?


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## ronparise (Apr 4, 2015)

CO skier said:


> So this year's "free giveaways" (the subject of the OP) were less than free last year and prices have risen to zero?



Thats exactly right.  

1) As you know, I am in the process of giving away (the buyer is paying closing costs) several contracts that are stripped of points. The new owner will be paying maintenance fees for several years before their first use year. Last year I never would have found any takers for this deal.  

2) I had a relationship with a post card company You know how they work: people pay them to get rid of their timeshares.     They gave me any of the Wyndham points contracts I wanted and they paid all the closing costs. You would have to say that the value of waht they pushed to me was less than zero.   Over the last year the supply of these "free" wyndham timeshares has dropped to zero.  I am trying to re establish that relationship, but Im going to have to pay for what I get. 

3) contracts that were given to me a year ago I am able to sell at a nice profit

So once again I have to say you are exactly right. What was worth less than nothing a year ago has some value today and what had a little value a year ago is now priced too high to tempt me on the buy side.  Its turned me from being a buyer to a seller


However, As someone here has already said. All Wyndham contracts are not created equal. When the mf gets up over $10/1000 points its still pretty much worthless.


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## theo (Apr 4, 2015)

comicbookman said:


> Not only are they getting inventory cheap, since they are a large owner, the extra MF costs that result from *Viking ship operations* and foreclosures *costs them money as well*.  So they get cheap inventory, reduce costs (which benefits other owners as well) and give people a way out.  A win all the way around, even for resale owners who do not get the free usage, but do get to wash their hands of the obligations.



Your astute observations make me wonder if Wyndham's revised position on "deedback" acceptance has been precipitated by (or at least greatly influenced by) the proliferation of Viking Ship operations in recent years.  

Certainly, it's much smarter and less costly for Wyndham (or any other entity) to voluntarily accept deedbacks than to instead tackle the time consumption and expense involved in untangling the legal mess of mythical Viking Ship "owners", no?


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## ronparise (Apr 4, 2015)

theo said:


> Your astute observations make me wonder if Wyndham's revised position on "deedback" acceptance has been precipitated by (or at least greatly influenced by) the proliferation of Viking Ship operations in recent years.
> 
> Certainly, it's much smarter and less costly for Wyndham (or any other entity) to voluntarily accept deedbacks than to instead tackle the time consumption and expense involved in untangling the legal mess of mythical Viking Ship "owners", no?



Duh!   you think?

Wyndham has for some time had deals with the hoas to take back any inventory that they (the hoas) had forclosed on.  Wyndham has also, on a regular basis, warned us owners about the various timeshare liquidation companies. I have commented at the last two Fairshare trust meetings that warnings are not enough...that wyndham could put the post card companies and their viking ships out of business if they (wyndham) would provide some sort of exit strategy for us older owners. 

Also Wyndham has an "asset light" growth strategy,  They dont want to tie up corporate cash to develop new resorts. 

At the last meeting there was a public statement from the guy that heads up the trust to the effect that they know that they will have to do something with the secondary market

So now it seems that they have  jumped into the secondary market with both feet. Raising the prices but still able to buy low and sell high. Secondary effects of the new higher price points, is that they are making it difficult to enter the rental market as I did 5 years ago, and they are making it real attractive for us to exit, not to mention that the post card companies dont need viking ships for their wyndham inventory. . they can sell their inventory to wyndham instead of dumping it

as a side note: just today,   I offered a broker a penny a point for 10,000,000 points to settle at the rate of a million a month over the rest of the year, and she turned me down, She said that she had a buyer at a penny and a half.  By the way this broker is one of the three brokers that Wyndham named as  "preferred" secondary market brokers, recently.  Is there anyone that thinks her buyer is anyone other than Wyndham?...


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## am1 (Apr 4, 2015)

Even if prices are rising small contracts are not worth the transfer fee and risk of being stuck with them in the future.  

There may be money made buying and selling them but effort can probably be better spent elsewhere.  

On a side note are other Wyndhams being planned?  Or still have enough points from deedbacks, new york, chicago, desert blue, beaver creek and Park City?


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## ronparise (Apr 5, 2015)

am1 said:


> Even if prices are rising small contracts are not worth the transfer fee and risk of being stuck with them in the future.
> 
> There may be money made buying and selling them but effort can probably be better spent elsewhere.
> 
> On a side note are other Wyndhams being planned?  Or still have enough points from deedbacks, new york, chicago, desert blue, beaver creek and Park City?



wyndham is a growth company and points moving from one owner through wyndham to another dont make for any growth. Its a nice new profit center, but its not growth, ie new resorts and new members, so in my opinion yes other resorts are planned, where they will be and when they are coming, I have no idea, but they are coming, Id bet on it


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## persia (Apr 5, 2015)

I think you may be on to something, even at $0.015 a point there's still an easy markup of almost 20x by just rebranding them as CWA points and letting the sales droids pitch them. And for quite a while they were free. So it has the combined effect of raising a huge pile of cash and pushing the resale market up. Perhaps when they are all done resale prices of CWA will be close to those of WTC. You may have a nice nest egg when you get out of renting 




ronparise said:


> wyndham is a growth company and points moving from one owner through wyndham to another dont make for any growth. Its a nice new profit center, but its not growth, ie new resorts and new members, so in my opinion yes other resorts are planned, where they will be and when they are coming, I have no idea, but they are coming, Id bet on it


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## am1 (Apr 5, 2015)

persia said:


> I think you may be on to something, even at $0.015 a point there's still an easy markup of almost 20x by just rebranding them as CWA points and letting the sales droids pitch them. And for quite a while they were free. So it has the combined effect of raising a huge pile of cash and pushing the resale market up. Perhaps when they are all done resale prices of CWA will be close to those of WTC. You may have a nice nest egg when you get out of renting



I see it as resorts get older, fees increase and the older generation wants out that overall wyndham resale timeshares will decrease in value or stay close to 0.  

As new resorts get built there is points inflation.  Lots of points to book at the new resorts and lots of those big point owners chasing deals at the older resorts.

Wyndham needs to build new resorts to have something to get buyers excited about.


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## breezez (Jul 5, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Theo, I sold a ton of what I had last year and I  sold another 5 million points since the beginning of the year Most of that I got for next to nothing.   Those days are Im afraid over.   Your thinking that im trying to push prices up makes sense, but Im not, (Im not nearly big enough to push Wyndham around.)   And Im trying to replace some of what I sold  now.  No doubt Im betting on a rising market, but Im not making it happen. Im riding the wave or following the trend.
> 
> Feel free to forward  those offers to me..Im buying 300000 point plus udi contracts. with the intent to sell them next year at even higher prices.
> 
> ...



Ron - Why do you seem to like UDI over CWA...   Just trying to learn.  Thanks


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## Bigrob (Jul 7, 2015)

breezez said:


> Ron - Why do you seem to like UDI over CWA...   Just trying to learn.  Thanks



He doesn't. He prefers 300K+ contracts that are EITHER UDI OR CWA. He just doesn't want converted fixed weeks.

That being said, there are a few resorts that may have 300K+ UDI deeds that are still less valuable anyway, not just because of higher MFs.


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## breezez (Jul 10, 2015)

BigRob,  Thanks for clarify this


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## bccash63 (Jul 11, 2015)

I was unaware that Wyndham had started accepting deedbacks. How do I go about that? I have one wyndham pts contract I would like to keep but an every other year I would be happy to deed back. thx Dawn


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## bnoble (Jul 11, 2015)

Search for "Ovation".  There are a couple of threads about it.


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