# Two travellers from U.S. fined $20,000 each for fake vaccination documents



## CanuckTravlr (Jul 30, 2021)

Now that the border is opening again to fully-vaccinated US travellers, it seems that part of the American idiot-fringe-element thought they could cross the border with fake documents and without complying with the requirements.  At $20,000 apiece that is a pretty hefty penalty (even in CAD), plus they will likely have a flag on their file for sometime to come.  

Coronavirus: Two travellers from U.S. fined $20,000 each for fake vaccination documents | CTV News

Unbelievably stupid, but these types generally aren't too bright IME.  This proclivity for certain people to lie, cheat, and even forge documents is being raised as an issue by some Britons on other travel forums, now that Americans will soon be able to enter Britain.  While they are normally a very small fraction of travellers, they don't make it any easier for the rest of us.


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## JanT (Jul 31, 2021)

I’d like to say this surprises me but it doesn’t.


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## wackymother (Aug 5, 2021)

I actually worry about this. Our vaccination cards look so casual. They do seem like they would be easy to fake. How did they even catch them?


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## AJCts411 (Aug 5, 2021)

wackymother said:


> I actually worry about this. Our vaccination cards look so casual. They do seem like they would be easy to fake. How did they even catch them?


This is likely a rarity since the proper way is so much less expensive than the fake way.  How do they catch them?  if you have a goverment issued document you are in a corresponding data base.   One that is accessible by the authorities.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 5, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> This is likely a rarity since the proper way is so much less expensive than the fake way.  How do they catch them?  if you have a goverment issued document you are in a corresponding data base.   One that is accessible by the authorities.


But it would be in one of 50 databases, possibly even more. From what we know, there is no single database that exists with all COVID vaccinated individuals in the US. The COVID vaccination card really isn't a government issued document, mine was given to me by CVS.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 5, 2021)

US CBP and the CBPA have a sharing agreement that gives them both access to a lot of shared information these days on both sides of the border.  This is also a known problem, because of the way the vaccination cards are issued in the USA, so they have been trained for what to look for.  It doesn't mean someone couldn't get through, but they are certainly taking a chance if they try.


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## Luanne (Aug 5, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> But it would be in one of 50 databases, possibly even more. From what we know, there is no single database that exists with all COVID vaccinated individuals in the US. The COVID vaccination card really isn't a government issued document, mine was given to me by CVS.


Mine was given to me by a hospital.  In the upper right it has the CDC emblem.  Our daughter had hers given at a Walgreens.  Same emblem on her card. Don't all vaccines given go into the CDC database?  Maybe this will help all of us understand:

*Vaccine administration (when people get a vaccine)*

Public health jurisdictions, Federal entities, healthcare providers, long-term care facilities, employers, retail pharmacies, and other businesses are all administering vaccinations to various populations throughout the US. This includes managing vaccine inventories, tracking vaccine doses given to recipients, creating vaccine records, scheduling vaccine appointments, sending appointment reminders, and other administrative functions.

*How are vaccine administration data reported to CDC?*

Data on COVID-19 vaccine doses administered in the United States and territories are collected by vaccination providers and reported to CDC through multiple sources, including:



State, local, and territorial immunization information systems (IISs)
Vaccine Administration Management System (VAMS), which supports vaccination clinics in jurisdictions, Federal agencies, and multi-state healthcare organizations
Direct data submissions to the *COVID-19* *Data Clearing House*










						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov


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## dioxide45 (Aug 5, 2021)

Luanne said:


> Mine was given to me by a hospital.  In the upper right it has the CDC emblem.  Our daughter had hers given at a Walgreens.  Same emblem on her card. Don't all vaccines given go into the CDC database?  Maybe this will help all of us understand:
> 
> *Vaccine administration (when people get a vaccine)*
> 
> ...


While the CDC is tracking vaccine data, I don't think they track individual names of those who have received the vaccine.


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## Luanne (Aug 5, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> While the CDC is tracking vaccine data, I don't think they track individual names of those who have received the vaccine.


From this info I think they must capture names:

*After a Vaccination Appointment – Option 1*

_Healthcare Professionals_



Click *Search Past Vaccinations* on the *Recipient Management *tab
Search for the recipient using one of two search options:
Enter *one* of these fields: email address or VAMS ID,
*  OR*
Enter* all* these fields: first name, last name, and date of birth.

Once you’ve found the correct recipient, click their *name* in the search results table to advance to the recipient record. *NOTE*: Clicking *View Record* will take you to the vaccination record.
To *view* the vaccination certificate, click the hyperlinked text in the next dose section below the recipient’s date of birth. From here, you can also download the certificate as a PDF.






__





						Access Vaccination Certificates in VAMS | CDC
					

Guidance on how to locate, download, and print vaccination certificates in the VAMS system.




					www.cdc.gov


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## wackymother (Aug 5, 2021)

Luanne said:


> From this info I think they must capture names:
> *After a Vaccination Appointment – Option 1*
> _Healthcare Professionals_
> 
> ...



We got our vaccines at a hospital-run vaccination center. After the second appointment, we got a link to download a printed vaccination card with all our info, dates of vaccination, batch numbers. I had thought that the QR code on the cards would give everybody a document like this, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The only printouts like this I've seen are from people who went to this one vaccination center!


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## am1 (Aug 6, 2021)

Just imagine when opens up to all international travelers with vaccine.   It cannot be too hard to get a real document but not the shots.  In my drive by vaccines no one is really paying attention that my photo id is actually mine.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Aug 6, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Now that the border is opening again to fully-vaccinated US travellers, it seems that part of the American idiot-fringe-element thought they could cross the border with fake documents and without complying
> 
> Coronavirus: Two travellers from U.S. fined $20,000 each for fake vaccination documents | CTV News
> 
> Unbelievably stupid, but these types generally aren't too bright IME.  This proclivity for certain people to lie, cheat, and even forge documents is ......



based I the July 30  date it is possible these 2 travellers were Canadian. 

The real gong show starts Monday (Aug 9).
- more travellers that are able to enter and a CBSA work to rule action that has started Aug 6.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 6, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> based I the July 30  date it is possible these 2 travellers were Canadian.
> 
> The real gong show starts Monday (Aug 9).
> - more travellers that are able to enter and a CBSA work to rule action that has started Aug 6.



Yes, I read a further article in the last couple of days that indicated they actually tried to cross the border around July 23rd, which meant they couldn't be US tourists.  There was some speculation they might be either Canadians trying to return by land, or Canadians or dual citizens who are normally resident in the US, or even US citizens who were trying to cross under one of the exemptions.

Pretty stupid in any case.  If they are Canadian or dual citizens they have a right to enter, but they will likely be put through the ringer for some time to come now, every time they try to cross the border.  I hope they enjoy that!  Hopefully most other travellers, whether Canadian or US residents, show a little more common sense and this was just a rare and isolated occurrence.  But I guess we will see starting Monday.  Combined with the work-to-rule by CBSA, it may indeed be a bit of a gong show!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 6, 2021)

Isn't a $40K fine kind of excessive?


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 6, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't a $40K fine kind of excessive?



First, it was a total of $20,000 in fines to each of them, not a $40,000 fine.  They knowingly and deliberately broke the law.  They were charged with four counts, including lying to a border guard, which is a serious offence, just as it is in the USA.  In many places around the world they would likely not have just been fined, but spending some time in prison.

So is it "excessive"?  Compared to what?  I don't personally think so.  Sometimes idiots need more than a slap on the wrist to get the message.  They could have been charged $5,000 for each day of non-compliance.  The maximum fines could have been up to $750,000 or six months in jail.

Every country gets to set its own immigration and customs rules and penalties, based upon what it thinks is important.  So let me turn the question around.  When refugees cross the border into the USA, rather than going through the proper legal process, is it "excessive" to keep them locked up for months or even years, or to separate family members?  Or to arrest and detain a Canadian citizen for trying to cross the border into the USA with Kinder Surprise chocolates, just because they are not FDA approved?


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## am1 (Aug 6, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> First, it was a $20,000 fine to each of them, not a $40,000 fine.  They were charged with four counts, including lying to a border guard, which is a serious offence, just as it is in the USA.  In many places around the world they would likely not have just been fined, but spending some time in prison.
> 
> So is it "excessive"?  Compared to what?  I don't personally think so.  Sometimes idiots need more than a slap on the wrist to get the message.  They could have been charged $5,000 for each day of non-compliance.  The maximum fines could have been up to $750,000 or six months in jail.
> 
> Every country gets to set its own immigration and customs rules and penalties, based upon what it thinks is important.  So let me turn the question around.  When refugees cross the border into the USA, rather than going through the proper legal process, is it "excessive" to keep them locked up for months or even years, or to separate family members?  Or to arrest and detain a Canadian citizen for trying to cross the border into the USA with Kinder Surprise chocolates, just because they are not FDA approved?



In Canada, the RCMP are there helping illegal refugees (as they are coming from the US, but fleeing persecution in a 3rd country) with their bags as they cross the border illegally.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 6, 2021)

am1 said:


> In Canada, the RCMP are there helping illegal refugees (as they are coming from the US, but fleeing persecution in a 3rd country) with their bags as they cross the border illegally.



They aren't so much "helping" them, as they are advising them what will happen if they cross. and detaining them if they do, since along much of the border there is no "wall" or other obstruction to entry. Any refugee claims are subsequently evaluated by the appropriate authorities in accordance with the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, to which Canada is a signatory.


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## youppi (Aug 6, 2021)

The agreement between Canada-US specifies that refugees must request refugee protection in the first safe country they arrive. So, they should not enter the Canada from USA because they arrived in USA first and they should request refugee protection to USA but they are some exceptions.




__





						Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement - Canada.ca
					

Policy and Regulations - Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement




					www.canada.ca


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 6, 2021)

youppi said:


> The agreement between Canada-US specifies that refugees must request refugee protection in the first safe country they arrive. So, they should not enter the Canada from USA because they arrived in USA first and they should request refugee protection to USA but they are some exceptions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed. Unfortunately, particularly under the previous US Administration, the US government was not always living up to its part of the agreement, which left the Canadian government in a very awkward position.  Also, due to certain actions undertaken by ICE, there was some questioning as to whether the USA could even be considered a "safe" country under the definitions in the Refugee Convention.  In some cases the US was threatening to remove the safe haven status of some refugees, often without due process, as is required under the Convention.

More importantly, the practice of CBSA returning refugees to the USA under the Safe Third Country Agreement between Canada and the USA has been ruled unconstitutional.  Last year the Federal Court of Canada declared that the practice was a violation of Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  That is similar to comparable protections under the US Constitution and Bill of Rights that are extended to foreign nationals once they set foot on US soil.

The federal government has appealed the ruling, but I'm not sure if the appeal has been heard yet.  In the meantime, it has been working with the US government to work out some of the issues.  With the borders fully closed for over a year, the ability of these refugees to enter Canada has also become somewhat of a non-issue.

Federal Court of Canada strikes down US ‘Safe Third Country’ agreement – Polaris Strategy

Federal Government to Appeal Safe Third Country Agreement Ruling - Canada Immigration and Visa Information. Canadian Immigration Services and Free Online Evaluation.

In any case, I think we have veered a bit off the original topic, which is concerning the upcoming entry of legal visitors to Canada.  So far we have only dealt with the "legalities" (or violations thereof) concerning entry into Canada, particularly by US or foreign residents.  Unfortunately, I fear any further discussion down this path could potentially deteriorate into something more akin to a "political", rather than factual, discussion, so let's just leave it there!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 7, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> First, it was a $20,000 fine to each of them, not a $40,000 fine.


20+20=40? No?


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 7, 2021)

Yes, but still only $20K total in fines *each*, no?  Nobody received a $40K fine.  Just as in the US, fines and convictions concerning individuals in Canada are levied individually, not jointly

Perhaps instead of just deflecting by doing some simple math, how about dealing with the substance of the issue!  Or maybe you could point me to a US case where the practice is to total the fines for similar offences for multiple offenders on the same day, to determine if fines are excessive?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 7, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Every country gets to set its own immigration and customs rules and penalties, based upon what it thinks is important. So let me turn the question around. When refugees cross the border into the USA, rather than going through the proper legal process, is it "excessive" to keep them locked up for months or even years, or to separate family members?


You're opening a whole can of (political) worms with this one. Not sure this is the current situation with the current administration. Many "down here" would say the exact same thing as you just did, but about the US system.



CanuckTravlr said:


> Or to arrest and detain a Canadian citizen for trying to cross the border into the USA with Kinder Surprise chocolates, just because they are not FDA approved?


I would also be interested to see a case where someone was detained or arrested trying to bring Kinder Surprise chocolates into the USA. Not talking about people smuggling large quantities, but rather a single citizen with a few of the candy. Worst case they would be confiscated.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 7, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Yes, but still a $20K total in fines *each*, no?  Instead of just deflecting by doing some simple math, how about dealing with the substance of the issue!  Or maybe you could point me to a US case where the practice is to total the fines for similar offences for multiple offenders on the same day is the norm to determine if fines are excessive?


Why are you so defensive about it? It is $40K. Whether it be $20K each or $40K total, the couple still has to pay $40K. That said, I would even consider $20K to be excessive for a single person.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 7, 2021)

Funny, it seemed to me you were the one being defensive.  You already made your position clear, but without any explanation of why you think it's excessive. They each broke multiple rules.  So I gather you think it's OK to enter a country and deliberately and knowingly lie, cheat and break the rules without any consequences?  Yet you live in a state where it's OK to "stand your ground" and take someone's life, just because they have entered your home or business.  Pardon me if I think that's pretty excessive!  Don't you?  So I think the caution in both situations is, if you can't do the time or pay the fine or potential penalty, don't do the crime!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 7, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> Funny, it seemed to me you were the one being defensive.  You already made your position clear, but without any explanation of why you think it's excessive. They each broke multiple rules.  So I gather you think its OK to enter a country and deliberately and knowingly lie, cheat and break the rules without any consequences?  Yet you live in a state where its OK to "stand your ground" and take someone's life, just because they have entered your home or business.  Pardon me if I think that's pretty excessive!  Don't you?  So I think the caution in both situations is, if you can't do the time or pay the fine, don't do the crime!


Just sharing my opinion. I just think $40K is excessive. We can each have an opinion on it without getting upset. BTW, I may live in a certain state that draws your ire, but I was born and grew up just outside the very city you call home. So I really don't know why where someone lives really matters in the discussion. At least the US constitution provides us with the eighth amendment... Based on your comments and initial post, you seem to have a clear disdain for Americans. I am not sure why.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 7, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> You're opening a whole can of (political) worms with this one. Not sure this is the current situation with the current administration. Many "down here" would say the exact same thing as you just did, but about the US system.
> 
> I would also be interested to see a case where someone was detained or arrested trying to bring Kinder Surprise chocolates into the USA. Not talking about people smuggling large quantities, but rather a single citizen with a few of the candy. Worst case they would be confiscated.



I agree there have been some improvements under the current administration.  Perhaps read my comments and the two articles in my post #19.  The US and each state is certainly free to set its own rules.  I can then freely decide as to whether I wish to abide by them, or else not visit.  But if I choose to cross the border, I am certainly not going to deliberately lie and break the rules.

There was nothing "inadvertent" about these two offenders, which got the ire of many others here as well.  Deliberate offenders, IMO, should not get the same treatment as those who inadvertently make a mistake.  I'm not sure if it was a "couple" or just two individuals.  I have certainly seen nothing indicating it one way or the other.  So how do you think they should have been treated in the middle of a pandemic?  A $500 fine, a slap on the wrist, "bad boy (or girl)" and be sent on their way?  If so, we definitely don't agree.  While the fines were certainly large and unusual, there has not previously been such an egregious case.  As I pointed out, the fines could have been higher or even involved jail time.

Also, please don't put words in my mouth.  Now it seems you are being defensive.  Where did I say I have a disdain for Americans or Florida?  Both my wife and I have many friends and family in the US and have spent time over many decades travelling and visiting there (in 37 of the 50 states so far).  That includes multiple visits to Florida, including one coming up in November, if the land border is open.  We enjoy visiting Florida, but I don't have to like everything about it.  I was only using it as a example, since I am somewhat more familiar with it.

If you want to comment on our rules and fines, then turnabout is fair play.  It has nothing to do with a dislike of individual Americans or even individual states, so stop trying to make it so.  I referred specifically only to the "idiot-fringe-element" (my choice of terminology), not Americans in general.  That interpretation was yours.  Many of your own countrymen describe them the same way these days, but to be clear I am not talking about any particular "political" group, but those who don't feel the rules apply to them.  They also exist here and in many other countries.

With respect to the Kinder Surprise Eggs, this is an ongoing issue, mostly inadvertent.  I used it somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  Many Canadians and Americans have been surprised to learn of the rule.  As you suggest, it is normally a minor offence and is handled by a brief time spent in the border office and the confiscation of the offending candy.

There have though been a couple of times where an overzealous border guard has taken it a bit too seriously and threatened more serious treatment.  To lighten the mood a bit, here is a piece of satire done a few years ago, poking fun at the rule and painting a more "serious" scenario involving a fictional group of women in BC, who were supposedly caught deliberately and knowingly breaking the rules by smuggling in large quantities of Kinder Eggs.  Just like our two recent border offenders, if it were true, I would expect them to be dealt with more harshly than someone just making a mistake!

Canadian Kinder Surprise smuggling ring broken up by US officials | CBC Radio


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## dioxide45 (Aug 7, 2021)

So we could say the same about the Canadian idiot-fringe-element trying to smuggle Kinder Surprise eggs? Each country certainly has their share... It also isn't turnabout, you are using whataboutism to try to make a point about a completely unrelated topic.


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## CanuckTravlr (Aug 7, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> So we could say the same about the Canadian idiot-fringe-element trying to smuggle Kinder Surprise eggs? Each country certainly has their share...



I believe that is what I said.  So at least we agree on that.


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