# Why I like Worldmark



## ronparise (Sep 26, 2017)

In addition to the resorts, the low maintenance fees and the flexibility (any day check in, long stays allowed, grouped reservations , wait list, cash alternatives, owner to owner transfers etc etc) You can, with a little luck buy this stuff for next to nothing

heres what Im involved in now

Earlier this year I advised a friend/client to bid on a 40000 credit, fully loaded contract The anniversary date is January. Yesterday the transfer papers finally arrived for signature. the first monthly mf payment of $215 is due Oct 1

so whats this mean for my friend:
1) He paid $12000 for the contract
2) mf between Oct 1 2017 and Dec 31 2018 will be $2800
So total cost between through Dec 2018 will be $14,280

 on Jan 1 2018 he will have 120,000 credits to use and another 40,000 he can borrow

here are his choices as I see them

1) rent out the 120,000 credits at 7 cents ($8400) reducing his net cost through the end of 2018 to under $6000 and make 4 weeks of vacation in 2018... net cost $1500 /week and 4 weeks of vacation every year thereafter for the cost of mf only (about $650 per week)

2) Use the 160,000 credits to make 16 week long 2018 reservations for rent. based on my experience (and with my help) he can rent these 16 reservations for $1500 each ($24000) So he gets all of his money back and a positive cash flow of  about $12000 in the first year.

3) some combination of the above. for example, He can get a return of the $14280 by renting 10 weeks and enjoy 6 weeks for himself for free. 

4) make 12 2018 reservations with the 120000 credits to use for a return of all the money he will have spent through Dec 2018 plus a little, and in Jan 2019 sell the contract with 40,000 credits to use and 40,000 credits to borrow for 30 cents per credit... profit in 15 months of about $15000

5) heres what I would do. 
# 2 above for the $12000 positive cash flow in 2018 and
rent in another 80,000 credits  before Jan 2018 and another 80,000 just after Jan 2018 at 7 cents each; make and rent another 16 2018 reservations for another $12000 profit... 
total = $24000 in the first year  and in future years make reservations with 40,000 credits owned and 80000 rented credits for a $10,000 profit per year (12 reservations at $800 profit per year.) 



In any case there are very few things you can buy that will pay for themselves in a year. Worldmark is one of them... I like that


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## jrogersok (Sep 26, 2017)

Love your analysis.  A few questions.   What site have you found most useful for renting your week's?   What size unit do you rent for $1500/week and where?


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## taterhed (Sep 26, 2017)

Not to throw water on the fire, but booking rules are always in 'flux' and could change.

It's nice to have options, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Obviously, I'm not a megarenter and, as such, find myself naturally opposed to the idea.  Unless it pays the bills and keeps MF's down and resale prices up.

As with all things, it's a love/hate relationship.  Love the income, hate the encumbrance.

Oh yeah, I too love Worldmark.


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## ronparise (Sep 26, 2017)

jrogersok said:


> Love your analysis.  A few questions.   What site have you found most useful for renting your week's?   What size unit do you rent for $1500/week and where?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Craig's list

Studios in New Orleans for Mardi Gras
2 bedrooms in season in Hawaii
Others I'm looking at are Coachella at Indio, comiccon in San Diego, summers at the Pacific Northwest beaches and west Yellowstone


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## ronparise (Sep 26, 2017)

taterhed said:


> Not to throw water on the fire, but booking rules are always in 'flux' and could change.
> 
> It's nice to have options, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
> Obviously, I'm not a megarenter and, as such, find myself naturally opposed to the idea.  Unless it pays the bills and keeps MF's down and resale prices up.
> ...



That you can recover your purchase price in the first year is important to me, but I understand that renting is not for everyone

So If you can't or won't do rentals I included a non renting option.that recovers about 2/3 of your purchase price  It dosent pay for the purchase, but reduces the out of pocket substantially so that the net cost can be as little as 10 cents a credit


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## taterhed (Sep 26, 2017)

That's true, you did.  Thanks for that.

As I said....love WM.  Also really appreciate the insight. Nice analysis.


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## ecwinch (Sep 28, 2017)

When I read Ron's "infommercial", I have a mental image of those real estate flipping "seminars"....

You need to blend in some testimonials, with pictures of the success stories driving big cars and all blinged out. Maybe a few of your boat...


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## Marathoner (Sep 28, 2017)

Ron is completely accurate in his analysis. The difficulty is that unless you know the Worldmark system really well, it can be near impossible to book the weeks that allows you to monetize the strategy which he outlines. As always, developing the strategy is the easy part and successfully executing the strategy is the hard part. 

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Sep 28, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> When I read Ron's "infommercial", I have a mental image of those real estate flipping "seminars"....
> 
> You need to blend in some testimonials, with pictures of the success stories driving big cars and all blinged out. Maybe a few out your boat...



No bling, I just replaced my 1995 Ford SUV and 2001 Toyota with a 2011 ford SUV and I leased a new Honda. So big but not flashy

regarding the boat... guilty


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## ronparise (Sep 28, 2017)

Marathoner said:


> Ron is completely accurate in his analysis. The difficulty is that unless you know the Worldmark system really well, it can be near impossible to book the weeks that allows you to monetize the strategy which he outlines. As always, developing the strategy is the easy part and successfully executing the strategy is the hard part.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



You don't need to know much, or work too hard to implement my first option. To enjoy 4 weeks of prime time vacation each year


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## tturla (Nov 8, 2017)

ronparise said:


> You don't need to know much, or work too hard to implement my first option. To enjoy 4 weeks of prime time vacation each year



I like this thread. As a newbie researching WM, I thought it could be used as a tool learn the WM system. First question, How did buying 40,000 credits fully loaded get the buyer 120,000 credits At January 2018?


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## geist1223 (Nov 8, 2017)

You have to remember that Worldmark Points are good for Booking for about 25 Months.
1. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2016 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2018*.
2. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2017 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2019.
3. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2018 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2020.
    120,000 Total Available Points on January 1, 2018 but 40,000 must be Booked by January 31, 2018.
Plus 40,000 Points that can be borrowed from 2019.

*Remember the Booking can be 13 months out or as late as February 28, 2019.


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## tturla (Nov 8, 2017)

geist1223 said:


> You have to remember that Worldmark Points are good for Booking for about 25 Months.
> 1. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2016 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2018*.
> 2. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2017 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2019.
> 3. 40,000 Points deposited to Account on January 1, 2018 - can be used for Booking until January 31, 2020.
> ...



So the seller did not use his/her credits from the prior two years and when Jan 2018 arrives that makes it the third 40k that can be deposited. So when researching purchasing WM credits, it’s best to see the number of points available when sold. Some ads are saying zero credits available, which decreases its value. The best resale ones are the ones that state they have 2x credits available and will soon have 1x credits more at the upcoming anniversary date? These have a higher value right? How common is it to find a “fully loaded” WM resale account on resale? I noticed that the price differences do not seem to reflect this. 

Also, when you borrow, do you borrow from another member? From Worldmark themselves? Is it limited to the amount you currently own?


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## ronparise (Nov 9, 2017)

Surprisingly, you see fully loaded contracts fairly often. Or maybe it’s not all that surprising. Think of your typical seller and ask yourself why are they selling. It’s probably because they ware not using the credits. And not using the credits for 2 years results in a fully loaded contract

And it dosent have to be a fully loaded contract to be a good deal. A stripped contract will have no available credits; only credits to borrow. Priced right a contract like this can also be a good deal. Remember you can buy one time use credits up to twice your annual allocation. At 7 cents a credit it would cost me $5600 to buy 80000 credits.  I paid $12000 for a fully loaded 40000 credit contract. So a stripped contract at $6400 would be just as good a deal


Some folks when evaluating a deal or deciding how much to offer or comparing one deal to another will assign a value to the available credits and a value to the base (stripped) contract    And then add or subtract a little depending on how close (or far away) the anniversary date is.  Mike Murphy (TLS Timeshares) does a nice job with this on his website  

And when you borrow you borrow from yourself. You can also “rent” (buy) one time use credits from other owners. Also there are cash options to make reservations. With these you are essentially renting from the club or Wyndham


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## VegasBella (Nov 9, 2017)

This makes a lot of sense for someone who enjoys working the systems and dealing with renters. If you worked out the hourly wage it might be too many hours for someone who doesn’t enjoy that type of work. 

For me it sounds horrible. I’d rather work manual labor for minimum wage. 


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## ronparise (Nov 9, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> This makes a lot of sense for someone who enjoys working the systems and dealing with renters. If you worked out the hourly wage it might be too many hours for someone who doesn’t enjoy that type of work.
> 
> For me it sounds horrible. I’d rather work manual labor for minimum wage.
> 
> ...



My post has nothing to do with “renting” or “working the system”.  All I’m suggesting is that a buyer understand what they are buying and the value of what they are buying before they decide  on a price to offer

Much of TUG is devoted to showing new owners how to get the most out of what they own. I don’t see this thread as doing anything more than that

Horrible for me would be to buy something I don’t understand. I’m just trying to help a potential buyer understand how to value a Worldmark contract befor he buys


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## tturla (Nov 9, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> This makes a lot of sense for someone who enjoys working the systems and dealing with renters. If you worked out the hourly wage it might be too many hours for someone who doesn’t enjoy that type of work.
> 
> For me it sounds horrible. I’d rather work manual labor for minimum wage.
> 
> ...





ronparise said:


> My post has nothing to do with “renting” or “working the system”.  All I’m suggesting is that a buyer understand what they are buying and the value of what they are buying before they decide  on a price to offer
> 
> Much of TUG is devoted to showing new owners how to get the most out of what they own. I don’t see this thread as doing anything more than that
> 
> Horrible for me would be to buy something I don’t understand. I’m just trying to help a potential buyer understand how to value a Worldmark contract befor he buys



I think it is completely wonderful that TUG exists to help out new owners. And Ron, you are absolutely helping out a potential new buyer understand the Worldmark contract. Not only that, you are helping me get the most out of this contract. With this thread, I am considering doing one of the options you had discussed in the original post. What are the chances of recouping some cost AND enjoy vacation time? Not many options in life can you do that. I like the complexity and the challenge. I am a physician who has decreased her work hours and I have a real estate license to help with friends and my husband's business (contractor) and we have some local rental properties and a VRBO (that is being managed by a company). The thought of renting out a TS is a challenge and not a daunting task. Renting property and real estate in general is an interest of mine, so yes, I would rather "work on my TS than do manual labor at minimum wage (yikes! can you imagine?).

Ron, back unto business. I see that you have used craigslist in the local areas of where the TS are. You find your self lucky? How does one rent out the TS? Do you speak with potential rentor then notify the resort? Are there fees? Is there a thread/resource for that?

How does one rent out there TS credits? Is there a location on TUG to do this and is the going rate $.07? Maybe thats a good option at first to check out the resorts before being a member or does one have to be a WM member to rent from others?

Lastly, I have a II gold membership. WM participates in this doesn't it? I read another thread and it seems super complex. Any comments on this? Can you merge my old II membership with this one. In the small II forum, it seems like I would need two accounts--which seems cost prohibitive since you would need to pay two memberships per year and then pay every time you exchange. 

Personally, I like option 3 above but with returning more $ since I really don't have time for 6 additional vacations earlier in my life but plan to 5-10 years from now.

Thanks!


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## HudsHut (Nov 9, 2017)

tturla said:


> <snip>
> Lastly, I have a II gold membership. WM participates in this doesn't it? I read another thread and it seems super complex. Any comments on this? Can you merge my old II membership with this one. In the small II forum, it seems like I would need two accounts--which seems cost prohibitive since you would need to pay two memberships per year and then pay every time you exchange.<snip>



WorldMark does trade through II. If you pay the membership fee for the II account (as opposed to a corporate II account where the membership is included via maintenance fees), then yes, you may combine your WorldMark timeshare into it.
***
WorldMark Owners may rent out their extra WM credits by placing an ad here:
https://wmowners.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=67
You do have to be an Owner to rent credits. You may rent reservations from Owners to try out the resorts.


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## HudsHut (Nov 9, 2017)

The banking / borrowing is seamless in WorldMark. The credits are date-stamped within your account.
Example: 10,000 credit account with a Nov anniversary:
On Nov 1, 2017, you have 10,000 "current year 2017" credits  post to your account, which expire 11/30/2019.
If the account was resale, and the previous owner didn't use their "prior year 2016"credits, it will have 10,000 which expire 11/30/2018 and 
in the To Borrow category, there will be 10,000 to borrow from next year's allotment. ("Borrow" means you are using your credits ahead of your anniversary date.) You may make any number of reservations totaling 30,000 credits or fewer until Nov 1, 2018.
On Nov 1, 2018, you receive 10,000 credits which expire 11/30/2020 and you still have 10,000 "to borrow".


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## VegasBella (Nov 10, 2017)

ronparise said:


> My post has nothing to do with “renting” or “working the system”.  All I’m suggesting is that a buyer understand what they are buying and the value of what they are buying before they decide  on a price to offer


All of your options involve renting and selling except for option 4 which requires only selling. So yeah, to make the most of the situation, you have to be comfortable being a landlord and dealing with all those people looking for deals. 

Your post has valuable information. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm saying that I personally would not want to get into the business of renting out timeshares. Nothing wrong with people who do. I think it's great for the right person.


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## ronparise (Nov 10, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> All of your options involve renting and selling except for option 4 which requires only selling. So yeah, to make the most of the situation, you have to be comfortable being a landlord and dealing with all those people looking for deals.
> 
> Your post has valuable information. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm saying that I personally would not want to get into the business of renting out timeshares. Nothing wrong with people who do. I think it's great for the right person.




Renting is how I would extract value from this purchase. another person might use the 16 weeks + themselves,  for vacation, or to live in while their new home is being built , or give them to a Puerto Rican family displaced by Irma.. Who cares how anyone might use this stuff, The point is that there is value that some folks might miss when they see a worldmark contract for sale.  


Worldmark is a fairly expensive purchase.. For my "friend" and Im guessing a lot of us here on TUG to investing $12000 in vacations is a big deal... What makes this work forthe value conscious among us is the "hidden" value 

All Im trying to say here is that a fully loaded worldmark contract, as expensive as it may seem, can offer a good value...  I go on to say, just as an example,  how I would extract that value. but thats me. Whether you would try to extract that value or leave it in your ownership makes no difference to my point, which is, that there is value here that a casual observer might miss.


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## Worker (Feb 18, 2018)

W


ronparise said:


> In addition to the resorts, the low maintenance fees and the flexibility (any day check in, long stays allowed, grouped reservations , wait list, cash alternatives, owner to owner transfers etc etc) You can, with a little luck buy this stuff for next to nothing
> 
> heres what Im involved in now
> 
> ...




Would you advise same client/friend if she/he was a Wyndham VIP Platinum owner(Does not currently own any WM Timeshare) to make this purchase or purchase a National Harbor 500,000 point listing? Which would have more value if client was choosing option #2?


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## ronparise (Feb 21, 2018)

What I am describing in this thread is what to buy  to recover your purchase price in the first year or two

500000 National Harbor points will cost something between $5000 and $10000 pluse $2000 mf in the first year. And in your first year you can reserve 3 weeks at a legacy resort this year  and 3 weeks next year. If you assign a value Of $1000 per week that’s $6000

In my Worldmark example (40000 credits fully loaded contract, cost was $12000) I showed you how to get 16 weeks at a legacy resort. Assigning the same value to each vacation as I did with your National Harbor contract i get $16000 back in the first year.... So it seems to me using my rather narrow view of things , Worldmark is better

But you are not buying for the short term. The question you have to ask yourself is where do you intend to vacation and can you do last minute vacations.  I always advise buying where you intend to vacation.  If you want Myrtle Beach vacations, or New England ski vacations or Washington DC vacations for example, but Wyndham. If you want the Pacific Northwest buy Worldmark

If you can make vacation plans with less than 60 days planning but the Wyndham because you will get a 50% discount and your points will go twice as far

These purchases are a personal decision. I’m not telling anyone what to buy.  All I’m doing is sharing some of what I considered when i decided what to buy.  


By the way I don’t own any timeshares any more. And my friend has sold what he bought (on the first year and at a profit)


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## DaveNV (Feb 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> By the way I don’t own any timeshares any more. And my friend has sold what he bought (on the first year and at a profit)



Is that to say you are no longer in the rental business? I refer people to you all the time.

Dave


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## ronparise (Feb 21, 2018)

DaveNW said:


> Is that to say you are no longer in the rental business? I refer people to you all the time.
> 
> Dave




dont do it any more


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## Railman83 (Feb 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> dont do it any more


And thus ends an era.   What new hobby to fill the void?


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## DaveNV (Feb 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> dont do it any more



Thanks, Ron.  I'll stop sending people to bother you. 

Dave


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## CO skier (Feb 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> In addition to the resorts, the low maintenance fees and the flexibility (any day check in, long stays allowed, grouped reservations , wait list, cash alternatives, owner to owner transfers etc etc) You can, with a little luck buy this stuff for next to nothing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An apparently unseen choice is:

6) buy what you will use on a yearly or every other year basis.  Reserve what you want where you want at 13 months.  (My family prefers 3 bedroom units, and have for the past 10 years.  No problem finding 3 bedroom units somewhere at 13 months -- Wolf Creek Utah is a favorite.)  Then take your family on vacation and collect accolades as the Timeshare Master.

My family refuses to stay in hotel rooms if there is a condo option, and they Much prefer a 3 bedroom condo.

This makes WorldMark, Priceless.


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## andymul (Jan 9, 2019)

Did you do all of your renting on Craigslist? No other sites? How long would it usually take for you to get them filled? How did your clients pay you?


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## ronparise (Jan 10, 2019)

andymul said:


> Did you do all of your renting on Craigslist? No other sites? How long would it usually take for you to get them filled? How did your clients pay you?



Understand most of what I did was with Club Wyndham and I used points managers to do most of the rentals. I did maintain a speciality working New Orleans. And that’s where Worldmark came in. I had a relatively small Worldmark account and used nearly all my points for Mardi Gras reservations
I made the reservations 13 months in advance and had them all rented by the week before check in

And yes I did all my advertising on Craig’s list. At the end however I had 20 regulars. So I didn’t have to rely so much on advertising to find new customers


Craig’s list customers, it seems to me, are last minute shoppers. They would rather rent from a name like Marriott or even Wyndham, not so much from guys on Craigslist named Ron. So I didn’t see much activity until the big boys had no vacancies. I had to spend a lot of time and effort establishing credibility. But the closer we got to check in the more chances people were willing to take. And usually things started to rent up after the first of the year


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