# New Wyndham Policies are a killer!



## Platinum Betrayed (Aug 11, 2017)

Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years.  Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost.  It feels like a major "bait and switch".  Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"?  It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.


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## Railman83 (Aug 11, 2017)

Platinum Betrayed said:


> Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years.  Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost.  It feels like a major "bait and switch".  Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"?  It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.


Platinum betrayed?  Cute.


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## ronparise (Aug 11, 2017)

Many of us that used the cancel and rebook trick for discounts knew that we were taking advantage of a loophole, and I for one posted on a regular basis that it was a loophole Wyndham knew about and that it was going to end.  Even the salesmen would pitch it almost as a secret that they were sharing with just you

The fact is that there was no one thing called cancel and rebook.
There was a cancellation policy that allowed cancellations up to 15 days before check in. And there still is.
There is also a vip discount policy that allows for discounted reservations within 60 days before check in. and there still is.

Nothing has changed regarding these two policies

But of course I can no longer get the discounts I used to enjoy and profit from


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## am1 (Aug 11, 2017)

My guess is that too many people talked about it. Or a few people talked about it too much.  That brought too much attention and caused too many people to use the trick.


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## TXHiker (Aug 11, 2017)

Platinum Betrayed said:


> Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years.  Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost.  It feels like a major "bait and switch".  Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"?  It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.


I am not VIP and I feel like it will be harder to use my purchase as the weasel told me that I could. The changes to points banking makes it hard to envision how to best roll up the points for a big vacation. For me, planning more than one year in advance is very difficult. The old pooling rules were flexible enough that I could work out the problem with planning. But now I have to pick a year, and I believe it is only one of the next two years, not three as before.

A weasel called me to offer a deal to buy points right after the changes were announced. I let him make his pitch, then I told that it was not good enough because the program changes made me mad, and I was not buying at any price.

I don't think I would buy points on ebay either.


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## markb53 (Aug 12, 2017)

I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units  in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook.  Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs. 
I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.


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## bogey21 (Aug 12, 2017)

Don't be too hard on Wyndham.  Most of the "Big Boys" devalue their product over time.  Many of you know I sold 4 Marriott Weeks over 20 years ago when Marriott started taking away benefits I felt I had purchased.  Since then I have watched as others have done the same thing time after time.

George


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## dagger1 (Aug 12, 2017)

It seems like "points" systems are much easier to degrade/devalue. Deeded Fixed Week/Fixed Unit/ systems are harder to devalue.  Close to impossible if you bought exactly what you want when you want it and plan to go every year.


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## ronparise (Aug 12, 2017)

markb53 said:


> I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units  in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook.  Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
> I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.



A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week 
At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made

Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts

My point is that the extra guest confirm isn't responsible for more availability. It's the no discount thing that's gonna kill off the mega renters


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## markb53 (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week
> At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made
> 
> Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts
> ...



There also seems to be more 1BR Deluxe available within 60 days, even weekends. Which is something I didn't see before. That will be good for Platinum owners that just want a weekend in SF. Or to rent to Me.


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## breezez (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week
> At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made
> 
> Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts
> ...




I don't think it will kill mega's.  They will just have to charge more, This also means RCI, EH, and Wyndham can charge more through their various rental channels too since people won't be able to scam for super low prices.    I also think it reduces the inventory manipulation that occurred so people could get a 3Bdr Pres. for a 1 Bedroom @ 50% off, allowing greater availability of units to all owners.


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## ronparise (Aug 12, 2017)

breezez said:


> I don't think it will kill mega's.  They will just have to charge more, This also means RCI, EH, and Wyndham can charge more through their various rental channels too since people won't be able to scam for super low prices.    I also think it reduces the inventory manipulation that occurred so people could get a 3Bdr Pres. for a 1 Bedroom @ 50% off, allowing greater availability of units to all owners.



If you are right that mega renters will adapt and figure out how to make money at this And  if they can no longer get 3 bedrooms at half the studio rate; they will have to make more reservations for the same money

More rentals has to mean less availability for the other owners

But that's all theoretical. Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly


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## markb53 (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> If you are right that mega renters will adapt and figure out how to make money at this And  if they can no longer get 3 bedrooms at half the studio rate; they will have to make more reservations for the same money
> 
> More rentals has to mean less availability for the other owners
> 
> But that's all theoretical. Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly



I agree with Ron. I really don't see a way forward for the mega renters. I don't think this changes anything for a platinum owner that rents at close to MF cost for points they don't plan to use in a given year, to recover some of their MF. I own a small number of points and I rent when I need extra for very close to my average MF. In the off season when there is inventory at 60 days, the person I rent from extends me the discount. During prime season when you have have to book at 10 months, I pay the full price. If all the small renters raised their prices to $6, $7, or $8 per K, I would probably have to consider picking up another resale if I consistently needed more points.


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## chapjim (Aug 12, 2017)

breezez said:


> I don't think it will kill mega's.  They will just have to charge more,



It's easy to say the megarenters will just charge more.  What that really means is their offered price (listed price) will increase.  Setting a higher price is not the same thing as getting it.

I'm hardly a megarenter but have done some renting.  People were willing to spend say, $850 for a non-event week in a 2BR unit someplace.  I don't know if any of those same people or any people at all, will pay $1,600 for the same week.  If I cut my margin to near zero, I still won't be able to offer the prices I used to.  And if my margin is near zero, why would I continue to bust my whatever doing this?  Might as well dump most of my Wyndham ownership.  I have enough fixed/floating weeks to take care of family.

Markb53 may be right -- we may be seeing one effect of the policy changes already.  Who knows but what some of the effects may have nothing to do with timeshares?  An effect may be increases in the sale of tents, camp trailers, and camping equipment as people down-scale their vacation aspirations.


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## Braindead (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly


Is that why there's been more large contracts for sale on eBay lately ?  Maybe it's just me but it seems like the amount of big contracts has picked up. 

Wyndham did a very big double whammy. I wonder who's brilliant idea it was to implement the new rules and the new website at the same time.
They should of started with the new website. Then implemented the new rules ounce it was actually working. Probably wouldn't of seen anything close to the outcry we see now.

I've read on TUG where Hilton,Marriott and DVC owners have all complained about there website- reservations have been a mess at times also.
I wonder if all hotel reservation systems are that bad behind the seens also.

Is what we are witnessing with Wyndhams reservation system just standard in the industry?


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## Railman83 (Aug 12, 2017)

Well I have been following and building a position as others have been selling.  But my aspirations are for personal use.  I will have about 1.6 million points and plan on renting only occasionally (I have 240 Disney points it makes no sense not to rent...pay 6 per year and rent for $15). 

In retirement in a couple of years Wyndham gets me 8-12 weeks.

The changes are great for people like me.   I have a second home for 2-3 months at 9k per year pretty much anywhere I want to go.   I currently own 3 homes, two I rent out and I don't need the hassle of more roofs and hvacs to replace.

If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points?  I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.


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## breezez (Aug 12, 2017)

I'm not a VIP, but feel in any system people will find a way to work the system for gain.  That is the human nature of most people.  That said the prices that people were renting units for were significantly lower by comparison of other places.   If VIP costs go up those that stay and rent will do so at a much higher price and smaller margins.   Wyndham will not have competition at super low prices that were being offered in the past by VIP's.  Don't forget they have inventory they rent via various outlets too.  If VIP's were dropping prices significantly it was hurting their rental profits too.

As a non VIP owner, I at 1 point was considering getting rid of my Wyndham, not because I did not like it.  But because VIP's renting were renting stuff for cheaper than I could stay with MF's.   Example, last summer I stayed a week at National Harbor in 2 BDR Deluxe.   I think my cost based MF's was about $1548.   The same week of my trip there where multiple units of that size on eBay for rent for $700-$900.   If people could rent stuff that cheap makes it hard for me to want to stay an owner if I could rent for significantly less.

Big families will still want nice resorts, and over time and will pay the additional fee's it takes to get them.  If you are a going to be a renter you will have to be more selective on the where and when to be profitable.


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## ronparise (Aug 12, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> Well I have been following and building a position as others have been selling.  But my aspirations are for personal use.  I will have about 1.6 million points and plan on renting only occasionally (I have 240 Disney points it makes no sense not to rent...pay 6 per year and rent for $15).
> 
> In retirement in a couple of years Wyndham gets me 8-12 weeks.
> 
> ...



Maybe I've forgotten what it's like to be a small owner, but I don't see 1.6 million as taking a position
And we aren't talking about folks buying for their own use. We are trying to determine the affect of the new rules on rentals and availability


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## Braindead (Aug 12, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points?  I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.


I think you may very well be right. I would just say the changes hurt all renters. All owners using their points for their vacations hopefully benefit on availability. It might be surprising on how many discounts and upgrades VIPs get. Their expectations are definitely low and can only be surprised to get more discounts and upgrades.

The new CEO came from Hilton and Hilton doesn't have much of a VIP program. Not much of a difference on how resale is treated verses direct purchase. It will be interesting if that plays into any changes in the future. 

I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.


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## ronparise (Aug 12, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.



unless someone figures out a way to profit in spite of the new rules.

Ten years ago they thought they had stopped the megarenters, and of course they did. What they didnt count on was a bunch of new guys that figured out new ways to make the system work for them. I have no doubt that the same thing will happen again... It might even be some  dumb farmer from Iowa


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## Braindead (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> unless someone figures out a way to profit in spite of the new rules.
> 
> Ten years ago they thought they had stopped the megarenters, and of course they did. What they didnt count on was a bunch of new guys that figured out new ways to make the system work for them. I have no doubt that the same thing will happen again... It might even be some  dumb farmer from Iowa


Why would anyone want to become a mega renter or point manager in the future ? 
About the time you become successful and build a customer base Wyndham will deem you an annoyance and put you out of business.
Atleast that's what I've learned here. I'd rather stay under Wyndhams radar.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 12, 2017)

Trains used to be the best way to travel 500 to 1500 miles in the USA. Planes were noisy, flew only during clear weather, in day light AND would crashed when they ran into a flock of birds.

Wyndham inventory will eventually have new rental companies offering units to the general public. 

Currently, the largest megarenter would likely be Extra Holidays. 

Planes have now transported MORE individuals that trains for years.

Everything changes over time .. yet tends to remain basicly the same. 

Trains, planes or vacation rentals.


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## jebloomquist (Aug 12, 2017)

markb53 said:


> I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units  in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook.  Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
> I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.


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## jebloomquist (Aug 12, 2017)

I haven't seen those wonderful availabilities at Canterbury. I just spent a week there. I have a 1 bedroom with the upgrade option set. It was never upgraded.


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## SmithOp (Aug 12, 2017)

Braindead said:


> The new CEO came from Hilton and Hilton doesn't have much of a VIP program. Not much of a difference on how resale is treated verses direct purchase. It will be interesting if that plays into any changes in the future.
> 
> I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.



I don't have a dog in this fight, own Hilton, but its been interesting reading all the threads about the program and website changes.  Hilton charges transaction fees for just about everything, and raises them every year.  I suspect that is where the changes will occur.  Hilton does have an Elite (VIP) program that eliminates some or all fees depending on level but that is about the only worthwhile benefit in the program.


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## bnoble (Aug 12, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Ten years ago they thought they had stopped the megarenters, and of course they did. What they didnt count on was a bunch of new guys that figured out new ways to make the system work for them.


There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned much.

There were several changes intended to kill the renters off: elimination of transfers between owners, onerous guest certificate rules, and a few other things. But, at almost the same time, Wyndham upgraded its web system. Before this upgrade, cancellations you made on day X did not appear in inventory until the website opened on day X+1. After the change, cancellations came back in real time.

This doesn't seem like a big deal. After all, several of the renters would cancel right before the web site closed, and would log back in just as it opened to grab what they dropped at a discount. True, they would miss some here and there, but not many. But, it _was_ a big deal, because the new system no longer required the late night/morning daily discipline. Anyone could do it any time of day. And many people did so.

Is there a corresponding relaxing of constraints that we haven't found yet to counter-balance the random/unknown return of cancelled inventory? Maybe. But, if anyone has found it they are keeping very tight lips. And, the people who I expected to have found it keep wondering if someone else will find it.

That is not encouraging if one fancies oneself a renter.


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## chapjim (Aug 13, 2017)

I suggested the same thing a few weeks back -- that cancel/rebook only became really useful when canceled reservations appeared in inventory in more or less real time.  I got slammed by some guy who said cancel/rebook was very useful even when a canceled reservation didn't show in inventory until the next morming.  Apparently he was able to do the early morning thing.  But, if everyone knows exactly when canceled weeks show up, the chances of grabbing one goes way down.  Which sounds to me like cancel/rebook wasn't very useful -- a lot of trouble and a reduced probability of success.


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## topcop400 (Aug 13, 2017)

I'd like to be an entrepreneur, but I'd be hesitant to build a business model that's dependent upon someone ELSE'S business model.  That kind of risk isn't  for me.  Ron has always been realistic about the risk. 


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 13, 2017)

Like the pole at the top of this thread. Hope MORE people vote...expressing their opinion as they see how the new system works for their ownership.


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## Tank (Aug 13, 2017)

Other systems are watching , learning , and making changes benefiting the system, not the owner. We in the HICV system have just whiteness this with the new 15 guest reservation a year no matter how many points you own implemented about a month ago without any warning. When you make 15 reservations, on the 16th I'm told you will get a notice that you have used up all your guest reservations for the year. 
I am not a mega renter, (I do rent units to help supplement.)
I'm not a Wyndham owner, sympathize with all the struggling you have endured this past year. Ownership cost is going up, up, and away for all of us.

Beating a dead horse here but TUG is not helping the timeshare owner with the $100 a night last minute 20+ year old [outdated] rule. By not adjusting , this has set the value back 20+ years. Higher rate allowance does not mean you will be able to get it but the standard is set by this $100 a night no matter if it is prime time or off season.  I've had people wanting my weeks for clients thru TUG using this $100 a night standard in prime time no where near my cost, and surly way below the rate at that time.

As a owner I am shocked at what comes thru in desperation to recoup some money at crazy losses (not alway)to the owner who's plans have changed. Feeding the "thrifty" vacationers and  travel agents at a ridiculous price at times. 
With the changes implemented to Wyndham , the mega renters will have a hard time breaking even.

My observation over time has been If I want something cheap come to TUG, but if I want to rent mine for a fair price , go elsewhere.

I love TUG, I have learned everything here from the *OWNERS* of timeshares. It's time to help owners out, I welcome you to 2017


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## markb53 (Aug 13, 2017)

jebloomquist said:


> I haven't seen those wonderful availabilities at Canterbury. I just spent a week there. I have a 1 bedroom with the upgrade option set. It was never upgraded.




From what I have heard the upgrade option isn't working reliably. I wasn't saying that Platinum owners could get upgrades at 60 days, anyway.Here is what I was saying. 

In the old system if I looked at the calendar view and selected 3BR and clicked through the months out to 10 month I would rarely see any availability. occasionally out near the 10 month point I would see one or two 3 night stays. Same was true the the 2 BR Pres (non reserve). Sometimes I would see a few more of those.

Now here is what I find in calendar view for 3 BR Presidential Reserve:
Nov. 3-3 nights, 1-7 nights
Dec 1- 7 nights
Jan  1- 3 nights, 1-4 nights, 1-7 nights 
Feb several 7 night stays
March same as Feb
April Whole month is available.
May over half the month is available
June Whole month is avail. Half of it you would have to be PR to get at this point because it is over 10 months from today's date.

If you look at 2 BR Presidential (non reserve) It is pretty close to the same. Except that out beyond 10 month I can book because I am CWA. Not that I could book a week at Canterbury in the 2BR Pres (or any size really) because I don't have enough CWA points for a week.

You will notice there is nothing within 60 days for a platinum upgrade (assuming it started working). But this is the summer travel season I will be watching to see what happens to the availability as we get within the 60 day point.


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## am1 (Aug 13, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I suggested the same thing a few weeks back -- that cancel/rebook only became really useful when canceled reservations appeared in inventory in more or less real time.  I got slammed by some guy who said cancel/rebook was very useful even when a canceled reservation didn't show in inventory until the next morming.  Apparently he was able to do the early morning thing.  But, if everyone knows exactly when canceled weeks show up, the chances of grabbing one goes way down.  Which sounds to me like cancel/rebook wasn't very useful -- a lot of trouble and a reduced probability of success.



It was very useful even before cancelled reservations showed up in real time.  Also was a very effective way of holding more inventory then I had points for an getting an upgrade from a 1 bedroom to a 4 bedroom.


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## uscav8r (Aug 13, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I think you may very well be right. I would just say the changes hurt all renters....


The changes don't hurt ALL renters... just the ones who relied on discounts. The changes may actually be beneficial for small-time renters who did not use the cancel-rebook trick and now won't have to compete with the megas who could undercut the rental market. 



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## Braindead (Aug 13, 2017)

I went back and watched the annual meeting again.
VIP Progam expenses of Club Wyndham Plus or the trust whatever you want to call it.
2015 $16,049,000.00
2016 $18,811,000.00
Over 17% increase in one year
I don't like the changes either. But that's the answer to why Wyndham made such a drastic change to the rules.


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## markb53 (Aug 13, 2017)

uscav8r said:


> The changes don't hurt ALL renters... just the ones who relied on discounts. The changes may actually be beneficial for small-time renters who did not use the cancel-rebook trick and now won't have to compete with the megas who could undercut the rental market.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree with that Chris. I believe those owners that are renting to just make a few bucks (or maybe $100.00) over their costs of the points/credits they won't use, will do just fine. They will continue to rent to those of us who need more points in some years. Or in my case, sometimes need to go to a WorldMark, which I don't own.


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## ronparise (Aug 13, 2017)

markb53 said:


> I agree with that Chris. I believe those owners that are renting to just make a few bucks (or maybe $100.00) over their costs of the points/credits they won't use, will do just fine. They will continue to rent to those of us who need more points in some years. Or in my case, sometimes need to go to a WorldMark, which I don't own.



I firmly believe that Wyndham never had any problem with renting as you describe it; just  to recover costs

But they have always had a problem with large scale commercial renting. I don't know whether their motive was selfish; they want all the rental profits to be theirs and that they didn't want the competition from folks that could undercut their prices or whether their motives were pure and their actions on behalf of their owners

It makes no difference.  they wanted the megarenters gone but they have no issue with a little renting for mf recovery. At least that's my opinion


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## asreiter (Aug 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> unless someone figures out a way to profit in spite of the new rules.
> 
> I have no doubt that the same thing will happen again... It might even be some  dumb farmer from Iowa



Never underestimate us "dumb" Iowans


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## ronparise (Aug 13, 2017)

asreiter said:


> Never underestimate us "dumb" Iowans


That was to tease one particular Iowan I met here on tug
I know about Iowans, My mother was a Iowa farm girl  and my cousins still farm just a few miles from where their father and my mother grew up


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## Braindead (Aug 13, 2017)

uscav8r said:


> The changes don't hurt ALL renters... just the ones who relied on discounts. The changes may actually be beneficial for small-time renters who did not use the cancel-rebook trick and now won't have to compete with the megas who could undercut the rental market.


I'm glad the changes haven't hurt your renting. Very few renters won't be effected by any changes to GCs,RTs,discounts and upgrades.
The changes evidently haven't had an impact on you and your still a happy camper


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## bogey21 (Aug 13, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> It seems like "points" systems are much easier to degrade/devalue. Deeded Fixed Week/Fixed Unit/ systems are harder to devalue.  Close to impossible if you bought exactly what you want when you want it and plan to go every year.



Yes and no.  When I made the decision to divest my Marriott Weeks many years ago it was because they changed their Resale Program. their Rental Program, and the value of my Week when swapping into Marriott Rewards Points, all within a short period of time.

George


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## dagger1 (Aug 13, 2017)

bogey21 said:


> Yes and no.  When I made the decision to divest my Marriott Weeks many years ago it was because they changed their Resale Program. their Rental Program, and the value of my Week when swapping into Marriott Rewards Points, all within a short period of time.
> 
> George


Definitely see your point.  But if you go to your fixed 2 or 3BR unit the same week every year, then hopefully the developer can't hurt you too bad.  But I see your point, trading value, etc., can definitely be devalued..


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## Railman83 (Aug 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Maybe I've forgotten what it's like to be a small owner, but I don't see 1.6 million as taking a position
> And we aren't talking about folks buying for their own use. We are trying to determine the affect of the new rules on rentals and availability



Did you use 1.6 million for your personal use or 30 million for renting?


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## asreiter (Aug 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> That was to tease one particular Iowan I met here on tug
> I know about Iowans, My mother was a Iowa farm girl  and my cousins still farm just a few miles from where their father and my mother grew up



I was just teasing back, trust me it takes more than that to offend me.


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## bnoble (Aug 13, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I got slammed by some guy who said cancel/rebook was very useful even when a canceled reservation didn't show in inventory until the next morming.


I remember that conversation---I think. And, if I am right, that person had been a very successful renter using this technique for a very long time. So, even though it seems like it shouldn't have worked, for this person it did, and did well.


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## am1 (Aug 13, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I remember that conversation---I think. And, if I am right, that person had been a very successful renter using this technique for a very long time. So, even though it seems like it shouldn't have worked, for this person it did, and did well.




Worked very well for me as well.  I jumped two feet in after my megarenter wanted to lower the price they were paying per thousand.  Things change and over the 9 years I never ran into them so maybe they gave up with one of the changes.  All of the changes I managed to turn into my favor.  Instead of renting the smaller scraps I went after the larger units to minimize the cost of the guest fee per persona.


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## ronparise (Aug 13, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> Did you use 1.6 million for your personal use or 30 million for renting?


I dont think I ever used more that a couple of hundred thousand for personal use.. I rented some myself but mostly I was a wholesaler of points to the points managers. I also did some buying and selling.


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## chapjim (Aug 14, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I remember that conversation---I think. And, if I am right, that person had been a very successful renter using this technique for a very long time. So, even though it seems like it shouldn't have worked, for this person it did, and did well.



I understand that and I applaud him for making it work.  But, if I recall correctly, his success depended on him being able to hit the system at 7 AM on the dot to try to grab units he had canceled at 11:44 PM (or whenever the website shut down) the night before.  I still maintain that for most of us, cancel/rebook only became useful when cancellations started appearing within a minute or so.  It must have become easier.

I wonder did the cancel/rebook success rate increase after the change?


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## bnoble (Aug 14, 2017)

I'm sure it did, because as you note the late night/early morning thing required discipline and some flexibility that many probably did not have.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 14, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I'm sure it did, because as you note the late night/early morning thing required discipline and some flexibility that many probably did not have.


and if you were looking to catch someone elses cancel you knew when to look vs the slim chance that you happened to be looking at the exact moment when the person cancelling what you wanted happened to choose to do a cancel/rebook.


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## ronparise (Aug 14, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I'm sure it did, because as you note the late night/early morning thing required discipline and some flexibility that many probably did not have.



A little discipline and flexibility are not bad things In fact they are absolutely necessary to maximize the benefits of a timeshare ownership, especially with a points program and especially when you are trying to exploit a loophole

If you can't be diciplined and flexible you bought the wrong thing

Cancel and rebook for a discount was a loophole exploited by some when you had to do it overnight and it was a loophole that some exploited when you could do it at anytime of the day. And either way it is a loophole that Wyndham is trying to close whether it's something that hurts mega renters or the guy that just trying to maximize his ownership for the benefit of his family

We all have to get over it and learn to work within the new rules


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## Jan M. (Aug 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> A little discipline and flexibility are not bad things In fact they are absolutely necessary to maximize the benefits of a timeshare ownership, especially with a points program and especially when you are trying to exploit a loophole
> 
> If you can't be diciplined and flexible you bought the wrong thing
> 
> ...



I was going to hit the like button but that just stuck in my craw as I don't like most of the changes anymore than anyone else does. However I do agree 100% with Ron.

The changes are here to stay. Get over it and learn to adapt. This is something everyone needed to do as soon as the changes were announced. I'm not saying we can't commiserate on what we lost and how it was back in the "good ole days". It is deluded to think that emails and letters to corporate, bringing it up to the sales people, thinking we can band together, etc. will have any impact whatsoever to get the the rules or the booking system changed back to the way it was prior to April and May. The best we can hope for is that Wyndham corporate will, to use their line, "listen, be responsive to our needs, be respectful, etc." and modify the system to be at least a little more user friendly.

Book/cancel/rebook like it worked in the past is never coming back. And I expect that if some enterprising owners find a way around it Wyndham will make changes to eliminate it and/or get rid of those owners too. As I've stated in other posts I'm not one of the owners who used it and relied on it so please don't take my comments as being critical or gloating as I certainly don't mean it that way. The reality is that we have two choices; learn to roll with the punches and survive or get out of owning Wyndham. Yes it feels like being told you are going to get a stick in your eye but you get to choose which eye. Only the guy who was already blind in one eye likes that choice.


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## ronparise (Aug 14, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> I was going to hit the like button but that just stuck in my craw as I don't like most of the changes anymore than anyone else does. However I do agree 100% with Ron.
> 
> The changes are here to stay. Get over it and learn to adapt. This is something everyone needed to do as soon as the changes were announced. I'm not saying we can't commiserate on what we lost and how it was back in the "good ole days". It is deluded to think that emails and letters to corporate, bringing it up to the sales people, thinking we can band together, etc. will have any impact whatsoever to get the booking system changed back. The best we can hope for is that Wyndham corporate will, to use their line, "listen, be responsive to our needs, be respectful, etc." and modify the system to be at least a little more user friendly.
> 
> Book/cancel/rebook like it worked in the past is never coming back. And I expect that if some enterprising owners find a way around it Wyndham will make changes to eliminate it and/or get rid of those owners too. As I've stated in other posts I'm not one of the owners who used it and relied on it so please don't take my comments as being critical or gloating as I certainly don't mean it that way. The reality is that we have two choices; learn to roll with the punches and survive or get out of owning Wyndham. Yes it feels like being told you are going to get a stick in your eye but you get to choose which eye. Only the guy who was already blind in one eye likes that choice.



Just to clarify i don't like the new rules either; I am only talking about having to adapt to the new rules.. Not the new website mess. That has to be fixed


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## Jan M. (Aug 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Just to clarify i don't like the new rules either; I am only talking about having to adapt to the new rules.. Not the new website mess. That has to be fixed



Agreed.

I didn't in any way mean to imply that it is a waste of time and ridiculous to express to corporate how we feel about about the mess of the new website. Only that they won't change the rules back to what they were. As Ron may have said, but I know I have and others too, it is very likely that after they get the new system working correctly they will consider some modifications in response to our input. For most of us that day can't come soon enough!


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## am1 (Aug 14, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I understand that and I applaud him for making it work.  But, if I recall correctly, his success depended on him being able to hit the system at 7 AM on the dot to try to grab units he had canceled at 11:44 PM (or whenever the website shut down) the night before.  I still maintain that for most of us, cancel/rebook only became useful when cancellations started appearing within a minute or so.  It must have become easier.
> 
> I wonder did the cancel/rebook success rate increase after the change?



At a time, reservations cancelled after 10pm would go back into the system the next morning.  That is when the call center closed.  Website closed at 10:45pm.  

At that time upgrades could only be done over the phone. So had to tag units until could get a vc on the line.  For a few weeks the website opened at 7am call at 8am.  Made it difficult to have to tag reservations for over an hour.  

But it all worked in the end.


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## bnoble (Aug 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> We all have to get over it and learn to work within the new rules


I don't think anyone was debating that---at least not me, the person you quoted. Our conversation was about how effective the cancel/rebook loophole was with the first-thing-in-the-morning return vs. the real-time return. None of us were disputing that the current system makes the loophole almost impossible to exploit, nor were we pining for it.

Heck, I'm a lowly small-point resale owner, I'm _certainly_ not pining for it.


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## ronparise (Aug 14, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I don't think anyone was debating that---at least not me, the person you quoted. Our conversation was about how effective the cancel/rebook loophole was with the first-thing-in-the-morning return vs. the real-time return. None of us were disputing that the current system makes the loophole almost impossible to exploit, nor were we pining for it.
> 
> Heck, I'm a lowly small-point resale owner, I'm _certainly_ not pining for it.



I didn't mean to suggest anything different   I was trying to make the point that it dosent matter whether cancel and rebooked worked as well when it was an over night thing or not 

All that matters is it dosent work now


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## CYRUS2400 (Aug 14, 2017)

I hear that we should 'get over' the policy changes and encourage Wyndham to fix the website.  Well, after originally being locked out, I got in and I've managed to make 4 reservations.  It's clunky, but, I got the job done.  I never used cancel/rebook and I've never rented out a reservation.  Is cancel/rebook a website issue?  Is that why there is so much chatter on that function?  If so, I hope they fix that for you.  I just want the Credit Pool back!!!  That's a definite Policy change.  I want that Policy change reversed.  I'll live with the new Points Deposit Policy, but, I doubt that I'll ever 'get over' losing the Credit Pool.  And, overall, I'm still happy with my ownership.


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## ronparise (Aug 14, 2017)

CYRUS2400 said:


> I hear that we should 'get over' the policy changes and encourage Wyndham to fix the website.  Well, after originally being locked out, I got in and I've managed to make 4 reservations.  It's clunky, but, I got the job done.  I never used cancel/rebook and I've never rented out a reservation.  Is cancel/rebook a website issue?  Is that why there is so much chatter on that function?  If so, I hope they fix that for you.  I just want the Credit Pool back!!!  That's a definite Policy change.  I want that Policy change reversed.  I'll live with the new Points Deposit Policy, but, I doubt that I'll ever 'get over' losing the Credit Pool.  And, overall, I'm still happy with my ownership.



VIP owners get a discount on available reservations within 60 days of check in. However at 60 days all that's available is what no one else wants. What we used to do is make reservations in advance, at full price. Then inside 60 days cancel them so that not they are available again, them quickly rebook at a discount

Doing this many of us were able to get discounts on everything we did. By making multiple reservations we were able to get 3 bedrooms at half the one bedroom price

Wyndham has now introduced an auto upgrade feature so that my cancellation will become someone else's upgrade and the cancel /rebook /upgrade thing won't work anymore. 

And I'm pretty sure the credit pool won't work the way it used to either


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## tschwa2 (Aug 14, 2017)

If there is enough complaints, I could see moving to something closer to Vistan'as banking procedure.  Once you bank you can't use in the current year other than limited last minute borrowing similar to Wyndham.  The difference is banked points are automatically good for the following 2 years.  So if I bank my 2017 points, I just need to use them by the end of 2019.  The kicker is the non VIP fee to bank is $99 so for smaller amounts of points it isn't worth bothering.  

Where it starts to get confusing and/or bothersome especially with Wyndham which could mean millions of banked points is which would the system pull from first the annual points expiring first of the banked points which technically have a later expiration but unlike the annual points can't be banked any further out into the future.


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## cayman01 (Aug 14, 2017)

I don't think a definitive decision can be made about the new rules  until the website is fixed and working properly . Then we can hash it out. Phantom inventory, no upgrading when available. Missing inventory. Three months and it is still a cluster $!##!!


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