# Tiered Maint fees [Presidential Villas at Plantation Resort, Surfside Beach SC]



## JPD

Just received a newsletter from my resort. The letter went on to say that as a result of foreclosures and owners who are way behind in paying their maintenance fee's, they are thinking of having a tiered fee system.

I owned at this resort for almost 15 years, maintenance fee's from what I know were the same for all owner's, now the resort wants to charge more owner's who have let's say RED weeks, and tiered down for other weeks. The resort say's owner's who have summer weeks can use all the amenities, while colder weeks can't.

Now my thinking is, when I purchased my red week, I did pay more then those who purchased other months. I don't feel we should be panelized because of owner's not paying maintenance fee's. Has anyone else gone through this type of tiered fee system at their resort? Don't remember seeing this on Tug.


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## tschwa2

If lowering the MF's for off season weeks gets new or keeps the off season week owners, then it will ultimately keep your MF's down.  Would you rather have $0 coming in for those weeks or 85% (or whatever is being proposed).  It still may not be enough.  Really in very seasonal resorts 50% of the high week MF's may keep owners but probably wouldn't entice new owners.

Not all states allowed tiered MF's.


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## K2Quick

JPD said:


> . . . now the resort wants to charge more owner's who have let's say RED weeks, and tiered down for other weeks. The resort say's owner's who have summer weeks can use all the amenities, while colder weeks can't.



It's not just that off-season owners can't use the common area amenities, they probably aren't contributing nearly as much to wear and tear inside the units as the high-season owners are because the occupancy rate is comparatively much lower.  For example visit a timeshare in Park City in late October or in early May.  Someone is paying maintenance fees on every unit in the resort, but the place will be maybe 20% occupied.

The owners of the off-season weeks deserve a break on maintenance fees and, if they don't, it will likely result in the failure of the system for all owners (because a large number of off-season owners will just skip out on their MF obligations leaving everyone else to pick up the bill).


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## ronparise

JPD said:


> Just received a newsletter from my resort. The letter went on to say that as a result of foreclosures and owners who are way behind in paying their maintenance fee's, they are thinking of having a tiered fee system.
> 
> I owned at this resort for almost 15 years, maintenance fee's from what I know were the same for all owner's, now the resort wants to charge more owner's who have let's say RED weeks, and tiered down for other weeks. The resort say's owner's who have summer weeks can use all the amenities, while colder weeks can't.
> 
> Now my thinking is, when I purchased my red week, I did pay more then those who purchased other months. I don't feel we should be panelized because of owner's not paying maintenance fee's. Has anyone else gone through this type of tiered fee system at their resort? Don't remember seeing this on Tug.



I havent seen any discussion on TUG about resorts that have a tiered schedule for fees, but there has been a lot of discussion about how the blue week owners are essentially subsidizing the red week owners. . Blue week owners walking away from their ownerships and the mf are a big problem at a lot of resorts. I own a few where the bad debt is approaching 20%, which makes my mf about 25% more than it should be.  

As a red week owner myself, I feel your pain, but a tiered system might help control the walk aways and serve to put a lid on maintenance fee increases.


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## SMHarman

Did I read that Starwood on one of their Ski properties sold each Red (Plat Plus) week with an attached Blue (Gold/Silver) week, giving you two weeks use one Plat, one Mud and of course double the MF but it keeps the Mud weeks out of bad debt and with the points system instead of using that mud week you could use it to extend the ski stay or for a shorter summer stay or something else.


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## ronparise

SMHarman said:


> Did I read that Starwood on one of their Ski properties sold each Red (Plat Plus) week with an attached Blue (Gold/Silver) week, giving you two weeks use one Plat, one Mud and of course double the MF but it keeps the Mud weeks out of bad debt and with the points system instead of using that mud week you could use it to extend the ski stay or for a shorter summer stay or something else.



I think thats an excellent idea. But how many of the red week owners are going to accept this. 

perhaps the board can just raise the fees for everyone enough to cover the bad debt, then give the red week owners the option of receiving a  free blue week usage


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## Ridewithme38

Smugglers notch does this also, when you buy a red week it includes a floating 'off season' week


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## presley

JPD said:


> Just received a newsletter from my resort. The letter went on to say that as a result of foreclosures and owners who are way behind in paying their maintenance fee's, they are thinking of having a tiered fee system.
> 
> I owned at this resort for almost 15 years, maintenance fee's from what I know were the same for all owner's, now the resort wants to charge more owner's who have let's say RED weeks, and tiered down for other weeks. The resort say's owner's who have summer weeks can use all the amenities, while colder weeks can't.
> 
> Now my thinking is, when I purchased my red week, I did pay more then those who purchased other months. I don't feel we should be panelized because of owner's not paying maintenance fee's. Has anyone else gone through this type of tiered fee system at their resort? Don't remember seeing this on Tug.



I would hope that if they go ahead and implement this, that you and other owners would be "grandfathered" in a way to not change your original agreement.   Should they want to start this on all future owners, I think it is a viable idea.   An alternative would be for them to charge a resort fee during the high system to anyone staying there.   

I would be a very unhappy owner if I agreed to one thing 15 years ago and they decided to punish me because of other people.  If I were buying today and they told me my MFs were going to be higher for a red week, that would be my choice to decide if it is worth it or not.


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## PamMo

+1 for what Presley said.


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## ronparise

presley said:


> I would hope that if they go ahead and implement this, that you and other owners would be "grandfathered" in a way to not change your original agreement.   Should they want to start this on all future owners, I think it is a viable idea.   An alternative would be for them to charge a resort fee during the high system to anyone staying there.
> 
> I would be a very unhappy owner if I agreed to one thing 15 years ago and they decided to punish me because of other people.  If I were buying today and they told me my MFs were going to be higher for a red week, that would be my choice to decide if it is worth it or not.



Its not a punishment...Its a solution to a problem.  

If there are 52 weeks in the year and only 30 are paying their fees. 100% of the expenses are being shouldered by just 60% of the owners.

My point is that the red week owners in my hypothetical are already paying more than they agreed to when the bought in. A tiered arrangement will bring their fees down by getting at least something out of the blue weeks.

and yes; as big of a problem as blue week owners walking away is....It will be a much bigger problem when the redweek owners decide its just not worth it.


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## csxjohn

This sounds like fixing a major wound with a band-aid.

The red weeks will pay more and the other weeks will pay less and they will still be abandoned.  I seriously doubt that a small reduction in the fees paid by off week owners will entice them stay on a sinking ship.

What I see happening is more and more off week owners default and the paying owners will have to make up the difference.


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## ronparise

csxjohn said:


> This sounds like fixing a major wound with a band-aid.
> 
> The red weeks will pay more and the other weeks will pay less and they will still be abandoned.  I seriously doubt that a small reduction in the fees paid by off week owners will entice them stay on a sinking ship.
> 
> What I see happening is more and more off week owners default and the paying owners will have to make up the difference.



So Ill take my suggestion to the next level. The hoa should make an effort to take back all the blue and white weeks,  Then take the budget and divide by the number red week intervals. That will be the new mf for red week owners.  Then any redweek owner can reserve a blue/white week or two or three as they see fit.  the rental fee can be what they think these weeks are worth


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## twinmommy19

I wonder why more resorts don't implement a bonus time program like some of the fractional resorts have.  I bet the resorts that have this experience less delinquency.  Think about it this way - what do you think the initial motivation was for anyone who bought a mud season park city week?  Do you think that buyer really wanted to go to a ski resort at a time when everything was closed?  Of course not - like everyone else those buyers must have been suckered by the developer punch line that they would be able to trade into peak season.  Doesn't a policy that allows owners to reserve last minute bonus time during all seasons at a very low rate benefit everyone?  This at least would make ownership of off weeks attractive for local families.


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## theo

*Just a thought...*

Not sure how / why this subject is an appropriate topic for the "Exchanging" forum, but nonetheless...

The question that immediately comes to *my* mind is whether any resort and / or HOA actually has the legal standing, right or authority to unilaterally adopt a brand new, unprecedented, "tiered" system for imposing different maintenance fees upon different owners if such an option was not initially and very clearly specified and overtly authorized within the original, governing CC&R documents.

I'm not saying that I claim to definitively know that answer, but I am certainly saying that I for one would easily (and gladly) present a strong case asserting that, in the absence of any specifically authorizing CC&R documentation, the answer to that question is a resounding and unequivocal *NO*!.


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## ronparise

theo said:


> Not sure how / why this subject is an appropriate topic for the "Exchanging" forum, but nonetheless...
> 
> The question that immediately comes to *my* mind is whether any resort and / or HOA actually has the legal standing, right or authority to unilaterally adopt a brand new, unprecedented, "tiered" system for imposing different maintenance fees upon different owners if such an option was not initially and very clearly specified and overtly authorized within the original, governing CC&R documents.
> 
> I'm not saying that I claim to definitively know that answer, but I am certainly saying that I for one would easily (and gladly) present a strong case asserting that, in the absence of any specifically authorizing CC&R documentation, the answer to that question is a resounding and unequivocal *NO*!.



I think theo is right...he usually is

So I dont think many resorts can do this directly....They will have to come in through the back door ...so to speak...be creative.


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## DeniseM

This has nothing to do with exchanging - what is the name of the resort?


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## glenmore

*Myrtle Beach -- wants to change maintenance fees based on season*

Just received a newsletter from Plantation Resort which stated in part:

" To reduce defaults and uncollectible dues in your HOA . . . Beginning in 2015 we are proposing to change portions of the maintenance fee from a fixed amount paid by every owner in the HOA to a variable fee structure based on the type of week each owner purchased. The new new fee will better reflect factors such as seasonality, amenities available during your season, the cost to operate these amenities and other factors."

Everyone who purchases a timeshare knows what their maintenance fees will be. Has anyone else been told their maintenance fees are based on season?


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## rickandcindy23

Some Colorado resorts are set up to allow for tiered MF's, and in my opinion, a resort in Colorado should have a drastic difference in fees between blue, red  summer, and red ski.  Val Chatelle is $480, $500, $540.  Should be more like $400, $500 and $700, in my opinion.  Skiers use more heat, use the fireplace more because the weather is colder, and they pack people into the units.  More wear and tear in general. 

But some resorts are trying to change the bylaws and get rid of the tiered fees.

It really has to be a vote, a super-majority, for a change like this.  So unless your bylaws provide this as a possibility, doubtful they can actually do it.


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## JudyH

I got the same letter, we must have the same resort.  I would think the owners would have to vote a bylaw change, it can't just be imposed by the Board.


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## JPD

DeniseM said:


> This has nothing to do with exchanging - what is the name of the resort?



Presidential Villas at Plantation Resort (#4220) Surfside Beach SC


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## STEVIE

I haven't received a letter like this, but I think it is fair. We own a Mud week and bought the week before we really understood how Timesharing worked. The Mud week was bought from the developer, so yes oooch! So I do think those who were smarter than us at the time and bought prime weeks should pay more. They are able to enjoy the amenities offered during prime time that are not offered during our week. Also because we own an undesired week, we do not receive as many TPU's from RCI if we choose to trade. I try not to think about this often, because it reminds me I bought before I really understood the process.
Sue


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## vckempson

theo said:


> I'm not saying that I claim to definitively know that answer, but I am certainly saying that I for one would easily (and gladly) present a strong case asserting that, in the absence of any specifically authorizing CC&R documentation, the answer to that question is a resounding and unequivocal *NO*!.



What is CC&R documentation?

I own at Pres Villas and believe that it's still a developer controlled board.  Any one know if that's accurate?  If the spread wasn't too terribly big, I wouldn't object to a tiered system.  But for people who paid a big retail premium for red weeks, ( I bought resale), they have a right to be pretty upset at the thought of this.   

BTW, I haven't received anything in the mail yet.  Maybe I need to take a walk to the mailbox


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## vacationhopeful

vckempson said:


> What is CC&R documentation?



Condomium Conventants and Restrictions - the rules under which the development was built and to be run by.


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## twinmommy19

I don't think the tiered fee structure will help delinquency much unless it's drastic and if subject to a vote, i dont see how that would be approved.  Plantation Resort doesn't have a high maintenance fee to begin with.  Most of the weeks float in red season either summer or prime golf (which is less desirable than prime summer but Easter week and May still get a decent amount of trading power and the amenities for the most part are all open.  It's not like a mud season in Colorado.  You can go to the beach in Arpil, May, October, etc.)  So They are mainly taking about the small blue season which floats in the colder months like January and February.

Anyone who purchased from the developer obviously did so because they liked the resort.  Bonus time during the other seasons would be a great suggestion as I suggested, and yes there is availability as it is a floating system.  Would July 4th be available for bonus time, no.  But end of summer and plenty of other weeks when the pools and beach could be enjoyed have vacancy.  That's a much better way to solve this problem - make it more attractive to be an owner.


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## twinmommy19

Another idea - open up the entire floating ranges across all seasons within 60 or 90 days of check in for all owners.  This would not impact the peak owners because they would still have plenty of advance time to reserve their desired weeks.  Let owners pay their fees in advance for the following year which Plantation Resort already does anyway.  If you own a winter week for 2015 and you pay your maintenance in advance, I'd have no problem as a summer owner with you using your week to confirm August 2014 if there was availability within 60 or 90 days.  This perk would also be a selling point for the resort to sell more off season weeks.


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## Sandy VDH

Pure point programs are basically tier MFs.  Mud and off season weeks are less points, and thus less MFs.  Prime weeks (ski or summer) are higher points values and thus higher MFs.  

I think anything with fixed weeks need to consider Red + off week packaging of weeks to keep everyone in play and get the blue week MFs paid for. 

I had a resort that just eliminated blue weeks and closed the resort during those months,  what few blue owners they had were moved to white weeks.  Now there is still insurance etc during blue weeks, but less overall costs for staff and maintenance.


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## twinmommy19

It's one thing if a tiered system was in place at the time a resort was sold.  Completely different to add it in later.  I cannot imagine a vote for this actually passing.  The summer float range alone at Presidential Villas is weeks 20 to 38.  That's a huge range of owners who will not vote in favor.  The point is, there are other things that can be done to make it more attractive to own off season.


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## vacationhopeful

Okay -- my idea.

Close 75% of the resort for 7 weeks in Jan (after the NYE weekend) until just before the first weekend of March 1st. (whatever to not winterized) ... 

Bank units with RCI - depositing time in late Sept-end of Dec (and a limited number of Jan-Feb). Offer (rent) those TPUs to the PAYING owners.

The resort HAS the occupancy history over all those years - run the numbers - basicly depositing time the resort is underlized and using the empties to generate TPUs which are then transfer to members who would like to pay an extra (discounted) MF for trading that year. Resort would have NEW guests (the RCI exchangers or Extra Vacation renters) - would look like it was an active place.  

And get the local businesses to offer "discounts", tours, cooking demos, ice fishing adventures, Wine & cheese tastings, Bridge tournament (or another card game), ghost story (perhaps at bed & breakfast sites), candle making, movie night with free popcorn, karoke night, Popluck dinner night, etc  Use the lobby - use the unit next to the lobby - re-set storage or office space ... 

The resort is not a year round SUMMER resort and the staff gets paid to sit and do little during the slow seasons - WHAT a nice benefit - just work for 3-4 months a year. Put them to work so their jobs will be there in the future years.


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## tschwa2

bonk2boy said:


> It's one thing if a tiered system was in place at the time a resort was sold.  Completely different to add it in later.  I cannot imagine a vote for this actually passing.  The summer float range alone at Presidential Villas is weeks 20 to 38.  That's a huge range of owners who will not vote in favor.  The point is, there are other things that can be done to make it more attractive to own off season.



It honestly depends on how many units the HOA controls.  If the HOA is developer controlled and they have been or start accepting deed backs from owners and can get there hands on 50.1 % of the total available inventory they can really do what they want since they have the super majority.  If it was written in the original documents that they only need a regular majority (probably not the case) to make these types of changes they probably only need about 20% and can block vote since most owners don't bother to vote for anything.

If they are adding it as a "surcharge" rather than a difference in base MF's, they may be able to do it with a simple majority vote.  If they go the surcharge route you would probably have to bring the fight to court and that can be an expensive prospect.  

Also in SC, 2 developers started allowing their inhouse management companies to charge very large transfer fees most of which goes directly into the pockets of the management company and not into any resort improvements or amenities.  Basically to discourage resales.  Probably illegal but since none of the owners have the money to challenge the changes they are there.


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## Egret1986

*If bought through the developer, a premium amount was paid for that prime week.*



susgar said:


> I haven't received a letter like this, but I think it is fair. We own a Mud week and bought the week before we really understood how Timesharing worked. The Mud week was bought from the developer, so yes oooch! So I do think those who were smarter than us at the time and bought prime weeks should pay more. They are able to enjoy the amenities offered during prime time that are not offered during our week. Also because we own an undesired week, we do not receive as many TPU's from RCI if we choose to trade. I try not to think about this often, because it reminds me I bought before I really understood the process.
> Sue



I think that, as stated previously, the "mud" week owners will think "it is fair."   The prime week owners won't because the didn't get the lower buy-in price that the buyers of the "mud" weeks paid.  I'm certain the salesman had red weeks available for sale.  But a choice was made to buy the "mud" week instead.

Even buying resale, a prime summer week at the beach (same resort) is going to have a much higher cost than the February week at the beach.



vckempson said:


> If the spread wasn't too terribly big, I wouldn't object to a tiered system.  But for people who paid a big retail premium for red weeks, ( I bought resale), they have a right to be pretty upset at the thought of this.



I am of this mindset.....if spread isn't too terribly big, then.....

It just doesn't make sense to own a blue week nowadays.  You can rarely rent them and when you do, it's for less than the maintenance fee.  I owned a developer-purchased blue week at the beach for 25 years.  We got fabulous trades through RCI.  Back then, you could also use your week if no one exchanged for it in RCI.  Resales came along with great deals on prime weeks.  Why own a blue week when you're going to have to pay the same maintenance fee as the prime week owner?  That prime week owner can probably get double the maintenance fee in rent.

No, it's not fair.    However, there's a pay-off (sorta) if you get that prime week at the prime resort for a fantastic price.   It does happen with diligence and patience.  Otherwise, you're paying a much higher price for your week.  

I have made the choice to own prime weeks.  The prime weeks owners are now taking on the fees of the non-paying owners.

Who wins?  Who loses?  Timeshare ownership is a gamble, among other things.  I've been a very happy timeshare owner most of the last 30 years.  I hope that will always be the case.

A solution is needed.  Resorts are grasping at straws.   I sure don't know what the answer is.


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## gnorth16

@tschwa2

Is a super majoirty only 50.1% or does it depend on the state and contract?  

I own here and only received minutes from the last meeting in the mail.  Somewhat concerning since I thought bad debt and HOA controlled units were not a major problem.  The MF's are still low, it has been upgraded in RCI to a Gold Crown and is a good trader.

I guess in the end I'm paying the MF's for a mud week in arrears one way or another...


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## vckempson

gnorth16 said:


> @tschwa2
> 
> Is a super majoirty only 50.1% or does it depend on the state and contract?
> 
> I own here and only received minutes from the last meeting in the mail.  Somewhat concerning since I thought bad debt and HOA controlled units were not a major problem.  The MF's are still low, it has been upgraded in RCI to a Gold Crown and is a good trader.
> 
> I guess in the end I'm paying the MF's for a mud week in arrears one way or another...



I'm pretty sure 50.1% is only a simple majority.  I'd expect a super majority to be something like 60% or maybe even more.  As to HOA's I don't know if it's state law that dictates or super majority or the bylaws.  Hopefully someone will clarify.

While tiered MF's is a viable solution to those defaulting blue weeks, doing it after the fact can't be an easy feat to accomplish.


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## vckempson

After doing a search for "super majority" on TUG, I happened upon an old thread about the mud week problem.  Interestingly, it was mentioned that all states except Florida require all weeks owner to pay an equal amount.  If that's true, I don't know how Pres Villas plans on doing this. 

Anyway, I have no knowledge as to accuracy of this equal payment requirement, but here's the link to the prior thread  

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154699&highlight=super+majority


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## gnorth16

This is how I see it unfolding.

"Reduce" all MF's by $200, but implement a tiered charge system based on amenities that are available in the summer, but not in the winter.  Winter weeks don't get charged the "amenities fee" and their MF's are lower.  The MF's for summer weeks are lower but they pay a $400 per week fee to use the lazy river. 

I would think that an "amenities fee" is outside the CC&R guidelines.  Technically, on paper, everyone pays the same MF's.  

I'm not supportive of this idea as I don't think it will work.  Is there a cut off for what people will pay in MF's in S.C in January?  $200 off probably won't cut it!


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## tschwa2

I know CO and SC are two states that do not have to have MF the same for all weeks.  I know MD they all have to be the same. Not sure about other states.

I thought the super majority came in that it was more than 50% or all owners not voting members but I just looked it up and what I was thinking was the *absolute majority*.  The regular majority to get most things passed you only need 50% or even the majority of votes  of the total needed for the quorum which is often around 20% of the owners.  So if a resort has 1000 units and the quorum only required 20% than 200 voting units needed to respond.  Of the 200 units 150 could say they had not preference  but were only casting a vote to make up the quorum.  50 votes were cast. 26 voted in favor and 24 against. The measure would pass.  It doesn't take many votes to get day to day things passed especially when the board is developer controlled and can vote as a block and/or greatly influence the regular owners by carefully worded postcards and voting sheets.

I would think that the CC&R would have to define the super majority.  The super majority as defined in the CC&R would in theory be required for any major changes.


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## JPD

When I received my newsletter, it also had a form for me to sign if I couldn't make it to the March 21st meeting. I understand what a proxy is but I don't know where this person stands in regards to the way I would vote. I never signed a proxy, so do you also get some type of check list later as to where you want this person to vote, or are they just going the way the resort wants?


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## vckempson

JPD said:


> When I received my newsletter, it also had a form for me to sign if I couldn't make it to the March 21st meeting. I understand what a proxy is but I don't know where this person stands in regards to the way I would vote. I never signed a proxy, so do you also get some type of check list later as to where you want this person to vote, or are they just going the way the resort wants?



Proxy votes always go the way of the organization.  Think of it this way.  The HOA will only offer up a proxy for the view they support.  Someone else can mail all the owners and offer themselves up for proxy but they'd be mailing it out, not the HOA.


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## rickandcindy23

What are they proposing for an uptick in fees for summer owners?  We own a few of those (three annual), and I just converted to RCI Points through the resort.  I wouldn't be happy paying a lot more.  I guess I better get my mail inside the house and look at the letter.


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## JPD

Letter didn't say, I did send an email to the listed email address, I asked them since the meeting is on March 21st, what would be the new fee schedule for prime weeks. They sent me a standard reply saying we welcome you to the meeting, if you need help with reservations let us know. I plan on attending that meeting, I only live 2 1/2 hrs. away.


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## vckempson

JPD said:


> Letter didn't say, I did send an email to the listed email address, I asked them since the meeting is on March 21st, what would be the new fee schedule for prime weeks. They sent me a standard reply saying we welcome you to the meeting, if you need help with reservations let us know. I plan on attending that meeting, I only live 2 1/2 hrs. away.



I'll give you my proxy vote.  I'll bet Cindy would too.  Not sure of the procedure to do that, but I'm quite serious.  I'd trust you as a current owner more than them to make an objective assessment to vote on my behalf.

The one thing I want to confirm is if it's still a developer controlled board.  It has to be, I'd think, since they are still in active sales.


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## JudyH

I can't make the meeting, but I would love to have more information.


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## twinmommy19

> I am of this mindset.....if spread isn't too terribly big, then.....
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to own a blue week nowadays. You can rarely rent them and when you do, it's for less than the maintenance fee.



Yes - this is exactly the problem.  It's the reason that modestly lowering the maintenance fee for mud week owners will NOT help reduce delinquent payments at all.  Winter weeks at Pres. Villas and most Myrtle area timeshares rent for $300ish as RCI extra vacations even on the free sites like Endless Vacation rentals and the trading power on deposits is lousy at this time of year because demand is low.  A modest reduction in fees is not going to change the fact that mud season owners are paying more maintenance than the value of their week for either direct use or trade.  An extreme reduction in fees will backfire too, because ultimately the resort will run into prime season delinquencies if the maintenance fee spikes too high on the other end.  

At the end of the day - the only solution that could work is one that creates a pseudo franchise style preference period system geared towards making ownership at the resort a legitimate benefit in itself (Marriott weeks in Hilton Head can be picked up with bonus certificates in the winter too, but because of Marriott preference benefits, those owners don't mind paying the fees).  Obviously - a private resort can't create this benefit on such a large scale, but changing the policy so that all weeks can float year round within say 45 or 60 days would go a long way towards helping this problem. As a summer owner, I'd have absolutely no problem giving up my "exclusive right" to my choice of weeks during my usage period at 45 or 60 days out.  I highly doubt that many prime season owners would mind this type of change.  Certainly it would be viewed more favorably than a tiered spike in maintenance fees.

What you ask - would a change like this do for mud season owners?  For starters, RCI still grants 80% of trading power within 31+ days of check in which would result in a whole lot more TPUs than a January deposit.  When I bought my week at Presidential Villas last spring, the transaction didn't clear until late May or June.  At that time when I called to make my 2013 reservation, there was still plenty of late July and August availability to choose from.  My extended family ended up going to the resort in August and had a very nice time (my husband and I actually decided not to go last minute as we found out I was having twins and thought the drive would be too much - that's why I never submitted the review I promised to the TUG community...) However - we could have also chosen to deposit that week and would have still gotten a decent amount of trading power for it.  

I would think an open last minute reservation period for all owners would benefit everyone in the long run.


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## JudyS

Sandy VDH said:


> ....
> I had a resort that just eliminated blue weeks and closed the resort during those months,  what few blue owners they had were moved to white weeks.  Now there is still insurance etc during blue weeks, but less overall costs for staff and maintenance.


Sandy, what resort was it that closed in the blue season?



rickandcindy23 said:


> ....But some resorts are trying to change the bylaws and get rid of the tiered fees....


Cindy, you are talking about resorts in Colorado, correct? Which resorts are trying to do this?


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## vckempson

bonk2boy said:


> Yes - this is exactly the problem.  It's the reason that modestly lowering the maintenance fee for mud week owners will NOT help reduce delinquent payments at all...
> 
> ... but changing the policy so that all weeks can float year round within say 45 or 60 days would go a long way towards helping this problem. As a summer owner, I'd have absolutely no problem giving up my "exclusive right" to my choice of weeks during my usage period at 45 or 60 days out.  I highly doubt that many prime season owners would mind this type of change.
> 
> ...What you ask - would a change like this do for mud season owners?  For starters, RCI still grants 80% of trading power within 31+ days of check in which would result in a whole lot more TPUs than a January deposit.
> 
> ...I would think an open last minute reservation period for all owners would benefit everyone in the long run.




I didn't say that a slight spread in MF's would solve the problem, only that I wouldn't mind.  Like you said, make the spread too big, and red week owner will revolt.

The idea of making all weeks available at 60 days out has some merit.  I doubt it would work for long, though.  First, the only reason there's plenty of weeks available on rather short notice is because of unsold developer inventory.  Once that dries up, then red week owners will quickly learn to book further in advance to avoid loss of prime week, thus eliminating that short term summer inventory for the blue week owners.  

In the end, as an owner there, I'm not sure how I feel about this.  Do I give them kudos for attacking a problem before it get to be real bad or do I get upset at them solving a problem that's not terribly bad yet.  I can't help but wonder if defaults are really the issue or is it the difficulty in selling blue weeks in their inventory that's the problem.  In the long run they both affect me.  In the short run, a sales issue only really affects them.


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## twinmommy19

> The idea of making all weeks available at 60 days out has some merit. I doubt it would work for long, though. First, the only reason there's plenty of weeks available on rather short notice is because of unsold developer inventory. Once that dries up, then red week owners will quickly learn to book further in advance to avoid loss of prime week, thus eliminating that short term summer inventory for the blue week owners



I don't think unsold inventory is the reason for excess availability.  My understanding (based on my family's visit) is that the resort isn't really pushing RCI weeks deeds anymore - they are almost exclusively selling new points deeds now and have been for quite some time.  Points give the resort a ton of flexibility with deposits. They can deposit multiple white/blue/less desirable red weeks to RCI in order to combine for the allotted point total.  The scenario you are describing really only becomes an issue for them if a higher percentage of points owners start staying at the resort rather than taking the points.  Even if that happens, they always have a back up plan in that they can make it attractive enough to convince some of the prime season weeks owners to convert their weeks to points.  Cindy - how much did that cost you guys?   104K points for the $700ish maintenance fee is a good deal if the conversion fee isn't too bad.  

My point really goes back to the beginning of this string where posters were saying a tiered system will benefit everyone in the long run but addressing delinquency.  It's impossible to address delinquency this way, because you would have to cut the blue week fee in half at the expense of the red weeks in order to make it worth the blue week owners while and a 50% increase to the red week owner maintenance would backfire severely on the resort IMO.  A slight change in fee structure won't address this problem at all.











The other thing is - I doubt the resort will ever come close to completely selling out 100%.  Few of these time shares do.  Hasn't this resort been around a long time now?  How many new sales do you really think they have in a year at this point.  My guess is not that many.


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## csxjohn

I owned at Alpine Village near Burnsville NC and they closed the facility Dec though March.  This kept MFs lower because minimal staff was needed to keep an eye on the bldgs during those winter months (like one person).

There is low occupancy during Nov as it is and in the winter it's impossible to get to the resort when snow falls.

I don't see how you could do this at a resort that currently has owners in the weeks they should be shut down but I'm sure some arrangement could be made.


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## rickandcindy23

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by rickandcindy23  View Post
> ....But some resorts are trying to change the bylaws and get rid of the tiered fees....
> Cindy, you are talking about resorts in Colorado, correct? Which resorts are trying to do this?



It's Pines at Meadowridge in Fraser, CO.  It was set up as tiered 32 years ago, but the board is trying to change it.  I believe ski week owners pay about $700 per week, blue week owners pay $220 per week or so, and summer weeks pay $480.  These are two bedrooms, two baths and need a serious kitchen remodel, in my opinion.


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## ronparise

I agree. creating a spread between red and blue weeks mf wont work to stop  a flood of walk aways, neither will it make it easier to sell the blue weeks....why?

because the blue weeks are worthless, folks dont want them even if the price was a dollar, and mf was a dollar a year.

I own at a resort where they converted to RCI points to give the Blue weeks value. The problem is two fold, 1) the mf to points ratio is high and 2) they are charging the Blue weeks owners to convert and instead of giving the hoa controlled weeks away, they are trying to sell them

no one will cough up the money...it doesnt make sense.

It might work if the allowed free conversions, and gave the hoa owned weeks away. 

It may not work even then.


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## twinmommy19

> It's Pines at Meadowridge in Fraser, CO. It was set up as tiered 32 years ago, but the board is trying to change it. I believe ski week owners pay about $700 per week, blue week owners pay $220 per week or so, and summer weeks pay $480.



Wow - that's an insane spread. I think that if Pres. Villas lowered the blue weeks to the $220ish range at the expense of the red week owners, there would be a lawsuit from peak season owners and the resort would end up with an even bigger problem.  Either that, or peak owners would stop paying fees which would create the same problem over again with different owners.
That would be almost a doubling in maintenance fees for peak owners.

However - the point is well taken as Ron pointed out.  It would literally take a maintenance fee in this range to make it worth owning the blue weeks based on the current terms.

They have to come up with a different solution and opening up the float range last minute to fill vacancies during red season would be a very a good start with little downside risk.  The worst that can happen is a blue owner calls up and can't get one of these last minute weeks they want in the 60 day window because there is no availability left.  Sure - this would happen sometimes - but they are still no worse off than they were before, and at least there is hope of confirming a week that has some value for either deposit, rent or use.


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## gnorth16

Any reduction in Blue/White weeks will directly be an increase in Red weeks.  

In RCI there are 4 Blue Weeks and 9 White Weeks.  The rest are Red.

We need to see some numbers to see if this is doable BEFORE the meeting.  I highly doubt I can make the meeting and am willing to proxy my vote to a TUG member.


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## twinmommy19

> We need to see some numbers to see if this is doable BEFORE the meeting. I highly doubt I can make the meeting and am willing to proxy my vote to a TUG member.



Ditto for me.  I could potentially be in labor by then, so I'd say a trip to Surfside is definitely out!   

For whoever is going to the meeting, we should really try to come up with a list of alternative suggestions that could help make blue season ownership more attractive or help the resort generate extra capital.  My suggestions (some already mentioned):

1) Loosening up the floating period on a last minute basis for all owners
2) Day usage privileges throughout the year.  Appeal to local owners maybe?  
3) Bonus time privilege option at the cost of maintenance fees?    
4) Charge a fee to lock out unit (not ideal but better than increasing MFs)


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## csxjohn

bonk2boy said:


> ....  My suggestions (some already mentioned):
> 
> 1) Loosening up the floating period on a last minute basis for all owners
> 2) Day usage privileges throughout the year.  Appeal to local owners maybe?
> ...



My resort does both of these and it does help the preferred owners get more value from their ownership.

They can take a prime week if there is one available but needs to be within 2 weeks of check in, not ideal but better than nothing.  They pay an upgrade fee of $112.50.

The day use is nice for anyone living nearby or passing through and staying with friends or in a motel for a few days.

These are both ideas that I'm sure will help a little.


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## vckempson

bonk2boy said:


> I don't think unsold inventory is the reason for excess availability.  My understanding (based on my family's visit) is that the resort isn't really pushing RCI weeks deeds anymore - they are almost exclusively selling new points deeds now and have been for quite some time.  Points give the resort a ton of flexibility with deposits. .



Thanks for that update.  I'm intrigued by the idea of allowing mudd season owners access to unused summer weeks.  It would certainly be worth trying.  

I just don't see, though, how there is anything unused, other than developer weeks/points.  If you own a summer week, you're going to either use it or bank it.  All the banked weeks get taken as exchanges in RCI before 60 days out, I'd think.    Summer is obviously high demand at the beach.  Wouldn't the ONLY reason you found last minute availability be because of developer owned units?

BTW, I still haven't gotten anything in the mail.


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## vckempson

Call me jaded, but I don't buy the mud week defaults as what's driving this proposal.  I don't doubt the mud week problems but Myrtle Beach doesn't have the same level of mud week problems as many places.  First off Spring and Fall are great times for golf, which is a huge draw in Myrtle Beach.  Winter traffic, while the slowest time, isn't completely dead.

I keep thinking about what's in it for the developer.  The majority of their remaining inventory has to be blue weeks.  (weeks or points, still the same)  Developer sales are slow as molasses for the last 7+ years.  They can't give away blue weeks and they have a big nut to crack each year covering the full MF for each unit.  The developer would then have a direct motivation to reduce their carry cost to help their bottom line.  

If defaults were a big issue, we'd have seen meaningful continued increases in MF's year after year... and we haven't.   Currently, this tiered MF idea seems to be something self serving to the developer.  Otherwise, why would a developer care about making this change retroactive.  Assuming it's still a developer controlled HOA, this all make intuitive sense to me.   

What documents would list defaults over the last few years?   How large, as a percentage, is too large to drive a need for something like this?


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## JudyH

We had been told that day use was available.  We always camped ocean front in MB and just drove over to Surfside to check things out.


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## twinmommy19

> Call me jaded, but I don't buy the mud week defaults as what's driving this proposal. I don't doubt the mud week problems but Myrtle Beach doesn't have the same level of mud week problems as many places. First off Spring and Fall are great times for golf, which is a huge draw in Myrtle Beach. Winter traffic, while the slowest time, isn't completely dead.



The fall and spring red weeks would not be a default problem.  Trading power isn't bad on those weeks to begin with and the points side gives 88,500 points for those weeks - with a $720 maintenance fee. That's still a better exchange rate than most places.

You may be right about the resort having trouble selling the blue weeks, but they certainly are not going to be sucessful at selling the remaining red weeks if they increase mainenance fees by 50%.


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## twinmommy19

> I just don't see, though, how there is anything unused, other than developer weeks/points. If you own a summer week, you're going to either use it or bank it. All the banked weeks get taken as exchanges in RCI before 60 days out, I'd think. Summer is obviously high demand at the beach. Wouldn't the ONLY reason you found last minute availability be because of developer owned units?



I'm not sure how the pool of available weeks in the floating range work.  All I can tell you is that we had to wait for our week to finally clear the Horry County records to reserve our "free usage" week for 2013 that came with our purchase.  This didn't happen until May / June timeframe.  There was no availability remaining for early July, but we had our choice of the last week in July through week 38.  Everything else was still available to us at that time.  When we chose an August 10th check in, we were asked our preference of floor (first or second) and granted our request for a unit within close proximity of the pool area.  

Regardless of where those vacant units are coming from, the reality is that there will always be some availability in April, May, September and October.  The resort is huge and if it hasn't happened already - the resort isn't selling out all those remaining retail weeks.  Most TS resorts don't ever sell out 100%of weeks.  So while a January owner may not always be able to snag a late August week, certainly they would have a decent shot at consistently booking a much better week than what's available during their own season (for either trading or direct usage purposes) if you allowed them to book outside their season at last minute.

I also think that bonus time could be a huge hit at this resort.  Many of the units are 3BR and sleep 12 people which is a rarity in any of the beach areas on the east coast.  Maybe more local owners would actually choose to stay rather than trade and confirm a second unit for an extended family trip.  We asked about preferred rental rates and were told there was a 10% discount - so it would have cost us $1,600 for a second week.  Way too much - not a perk at all.

My parents, by the way, were very pleased with their unit at Pres Villas - it was well kept, fairly modern and very clean.  It's true that it's not located directly on the beach, but the grounds are also significantly nicer than most of the other dinky beach front properties.  The pools are really great and my family actually liked the Surfside area better than the congested Myrtle area.  They found it to be more upscale.


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## rickandcindy23

Carl lives near there, I cannot remember exactly where.  I just sold a week to him a few months ago.  He owns others, too, with his wife and daughters.  I think he might go to the meeting.


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## gnorth16

FYI a blue week biennial 3BR/3BA has a buy it now for $19 on eBay with free closing and a $100 visa gift card.  Can't even give them away! 


Tapatalk via iPhone (I need a vacation)


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## poolshark021

I just got this notice in the mail from Plantation.  I also don't trust the motive behind this vote.  Why can't they show some numbers before?  Why do they tell you "just come to the meeting"?  Because they know the majority of owners won't be able to show up.

I can't make the meeting, and I am all for giving my proxy vote to someone who feels the same as me.


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## glenmore

In case anyone has not seen the communication from Plantation Resort, here iis the info in the Journey's End newsletter I received with a copy of my monthly maintenance bill:

Our search to find innovative ways to reduce defaults and uncollectible dues in your Home Owner's Association (H)A) budget continues.

As a part of this effort, beginning in 2015, we are proposing to change portions of the maintenance fee from a fixed amount paid by every owner in the HOA to a variable fee structure based on the type of week each owner purchased. The new fee will better reflect factors such as seasonality, amenities available during your season, the cost to operate these amenities and other factors. (No matter the season, the indoor pool, the shuttle bus, the recreation center and the fitness center are available - it is only the outdoor pool and children's area with the lazy river that are not available during the colder months.)

Our research indicates that this change in fees will reduce the amount of defaults and uncollectible dues that are being absorbed by every owner in the HOA and will be more fair and equitable with HOA costs among owners.

For example, there are more amenities available for your enjoyment in the warmer months of the year. The lazy river and the outdoor pool are much more enjoyable in July than in January. Accordingly, it is more equitable for those who don't receive these benefits to pay a little less. (Again, no matter the season, the indoor pool, the shuttle bus, the recreation center and the fitness center are available - it is only the outdoor pool and children's area with the lazy river that are not available during the colder months.)

We anticipate that this change will also reduce the number of unsold accounts in the HOA. If potential owners cannot afford the higher maintenance fee of a summer week purchase, they will now have the opportunity to purchase and successfully pay a lesser off-season fee.  (We do not know which owners are not paying, nor how many.)

We foresee that this change will offer valuable additional benefits to you as owners. It will give points owners who would like to add more points to their account the ability to do so at a more affordable off-season rate. Weeks owners will also be able to purchase an additional week of vacation in the off-season at a more affordable cost.  (This is a valuable benefit?????)

Once again, our ultimate goal is to benefit every owner through increased efficiency, more dues paying owners and fewer uncollectible dues.

This change will be submitted for approval at the upcoming March annual HOA Meeting pursuant to the amendment provisions of your Declaration of Interval Ownership Rights, Restrictions, Affirmative Obligations, Conditions, Etc.  Feel free to contact us at reservations@planationresort.com or 1-800-845-5039 should you have questions or comments.  (Does anyone have a copy of the Declaration of Interval Ownership Rights, Restrictions, Affirmative Obligations, Conditions, Etc??)


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## bogey21

ronparise said:


> So Ill take my suggestion to the next level. The hoa should make an effort to take back all the blue and white weeks,  Then take the budget and divide by the number red week intervals. That will be the new mf for red week owners.  Then any redweek owner can reserve a blue/white week or two or three as they see fit.  the rental fee can be what they think these weeks are worth



I think this idea has merit.  If the Resort has an inventory of Red Weeks, they could even offer to exchange (for a fee) a Red Week for a Blue or White Week.  

George


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## ronparise

vckempson said:


> Call me jaded, but I don't buy the mud week defaults as what's driving this proposal.  I don't doubt the mud week problems but Myrtle Beach doesn't have the same level of mud week problems as many places.  First off Spring and Fall are great times for golf, which is a huge draw in Myrtle Beach.  Winter traffic, while the slowest time, isn't completely dead.
> 
> I keep thinking about what's in it for the developer.  The majority of their remaining inventory has to be blue weeks.  (weeks or points, still the same)  Developer sales are slow as molasses for the last 7+ years.  They can't give away blue weeks and they have a big nut to crack each year covering the full MF for each unit.  The developer would then have a direct motivation to reduce their carry cost to help their bottom line.
> 
> If defaults were a big issue, we'd have seen meaningful continued increases in MF's year after year... and we haven't.   Currently, this tiered MF idea seems to be something self serving to the developer.  Otherwise, why would a developer care about making this change retroactive.  Assuming it's still a developer controlled HOA, this all make intuitive sense to me.
> 
> What documents would list defaults over the last few years?   How large, as a percentage, is too large to drive a need for something like this?



I own at a resort where the bad debt is about 17% of the budget. I took the bad debt and divided by the average mf/ interval, to figure about how many units were in default or in the control or ownership of the hoa. I dont know how long the number has been at 17% or how long it took to get here.

What this place does is to offer the hoa controlled weeks to the owners,. If I want an exrta week, all I have to do is ask, and pay the mf. as a result the other income line in the budget almost exactly covers the bad debt line

This works because this is a near 100% floating weeks resort and its red 52 weeks of the year.  So there is demand for these rtu weeks. The problem we have is one that all sold out floating weeks resorts have and that is a lot of owners wait too long to pay mf and make reservations so at the end of the year they find no availability


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## twinmommy19

Wow - Cullen was 100% correct.

I think I see pretty clearly what the resort is doing now that someone posted the complete letter.  I'll even go out on a limb and predict what the new maintenance fees will be.   This isn't about the resort struggling with a default rate - that's a load of crap.  Cullen and gnorth are right - this resort hasn't historically raised maintenance fees much and has always kept the resort up to date.  Plus only a small part of the year is truly "mud season".  It didn't add up. 

This is about selling RCI points packages.  Think about this - right now a 3BR has a maintenance fee of $720.  That converts to:

Summer Red = 104K points
Golf Red = 88.5K points
White = I'm not sure - I don't know that I've ever seen a package.
Blue = 31.5K points

Anyone want to bet that the new maintenance fee on the blue weeks will be less than $315?  The golf red weeks will go up but remain lower than $885 and the summer red owners can expect to pay an amount slightly lower than $1,040.  The resort knows this is the only way it can sell those blue and white weeks - the weeks have to have annual cost of less than a penny a point.  Their "research" is a matter of seeing how places like the Grandview are able to sell small points contracts despite the reality that most people buying those contracts have no intention of ever staying at the Grandview.  

From a marketing perspective, it's a pretty smart move on their part.  However - it doesn't seem like a legal course of action to me - majority or not.  Let's say someone randomly proposed a change to triple the maintenance of a July 4th fixed owner of a beach week simply because it's the most popular week and the resort gets the most wear and tear at that time.  Well week 27 owners only make up 1/52 of the vote so clearly they would lose the vote, but obviously this wouldn't be allowed, right?  That's essentially what this change would be.  Nobody who owns a week 20-38 contract would vote in favor of a $300 a year fee hike.  And I doubt owners of the spring season weeks would vote in favor of a $130 fee increase either.  But yet it doesn't matter as someone pointed out since obviously the development owns enough weeks to carry the vote.  If they didn't - this wouldn't be happening.


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## twinmommy19

> I think this idea has merit. If the Resort has an inventory of Red Weeks, they could even offer to exchange (for a fee) a Red Week for a Blue or White Week.



They could do this anyway.  It's always possible to upgrade a mud season week, it just costs a lot to do so and still would, I'm sure.


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## vckempson

glenmore said:


> In case anyone has not seen the communication from Plantation Resort, here iis
> 
> ...We anticipate that this change will also reduce the number of unsold accounts in the HOA. If potential owners cannot afford the higher maintenance fee of a summer week purchase, they will now have the opportunity to purchase and successfully pay a lesser off-season fee.  (We do not know which owners are not paying, nor how many.)




Well there it is, right in black and white.  _"*This will also reduce the number of unsold accounts in the HOA*."_  Notice it doesn't say the HOA owns these units.  That would be bad for all the owners.  These are* unsold *units (still owned by the developer) that are in the HOA.  The developer is having a hard time selling them but they still have to pay the full MF each year.  Having a tiered MF both reduces their MF liability each year and makes it easier to sell all those off week units.  

I'm going to call tomorrow and request the following.

1.  Copy of Declaration of Interval Ownership Rights, Restrictions, Affirmative Obligations, Conditions, Etc.
2.  Latest audited financials.
3.  Number of Unsold units in HOA and Number of sold units
4.  % of MF's in default
5.  Financial impact per unit of defaults on the MF
6.  Determination of whether HOA is independent or developer controlled.

Anyone have anything else I should be asking?  I'd like to start to piece this together.  Unfortunately, to fight something like this, you need to mail all the owners and solicit their proxy vote.  That's not likely something able to be paid for by a single individual.


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## Joe33426

vckempson said:


> I'm going to call tomorrow and request the following.
> 
> 1.  Copy of Declaration of Interval Ownership Rights, Restrictions, Affirmative Obligations, Conditions, Etc.
> 2.  Latest audited financials.
> 3.  Number of Unsold units in HOA and Number of sold units
> 4.  % of MF's in default
> 5.  Financial impact per unit of defaults on the MF
> 6.  Determination of whether HOA is independent or developer controlled.



The Association is unlikely to have #4 and #5 in report form, so it would be easiest just to compute these on your own.  Instead of those items, I would request the most current financial statement along with an aged delinquency report.  You might also request a copy of the 2014 approved budget.  #6 on your list could likely be determined from note 1 of the audited financial statements, which usually discloses this fact.  

I haven't reviewed SC laws, but in FL, owners have the right to inspect the records and make photocopy after written request with a fine for non-compliance.  Associations here aren't required to send owners financial information, create reports, etc. on demand.  So, you might try to see if the Association or management company's website has an owners' section where the audit, budgets, or other financial statements might already be posted.  For example, Daily Management, posts audits and budgets for VV @ Parkway on their website.


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## compubarn

vckempson said:


> Anyone have anything else I should be asking?  I'd like to start to piece this together.  Unfortunately, to fight something like this, you need to mail all the owners and solicit their proxy vote.  That's not likely something able to be paid for by a single individual.



I own at the resort too and I'm not happy about this situation.
When you call the resort, please ask for the policy on communication between owners. We should be able to either get the email distribution list of other owners or have the resort send out an email to other owners on our behalf. They may limit this to each HOA and there are quite a few of them at this resort.

Please keep us posted.
Thank you.


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## twinmommy19

Thanks vckempson!  Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.  These days, sleeping through the night has become a challenge so I have lots of time on my hands for TUG 

The tone of this letter doesn't make it sound as if this is a dire cash flow problem.  I doubt most resorts ever sell out 100% especially in an offseason.  It's pretty obvious though that they want to sell the remaining contracts, but it has to be near impossible to sell retail weeks in the off season at any resort that isn't brand new.  HOA knows that RCI points is their only chance but the maintenance per point would have to be competitive with other points deeds.   That has to be driving this.  When they started selling points contracts they should have created a 4th RCI code and set up a different fee structure for it.  Maybe there is a way they can still do this for new deeds?  As someone pointed out, only 5 weeks of the year fall into blue season and white season isn't very long either.


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## vckempson

It's been a busy day and I just now had a chance to call Plantation Resorts.  For over 20 minutes I got the run around and kept getting transferred back to reservations.  The upshot is that we need to speak with Karla the General Mananager at x1098.  Neither she nor her voicemail is picking up.  I was told by one person to come to the annual meeting.  I said, "yes, planning on it, but I want to be informed and get the necessary information beforehand."  I also tried to talk with someone in accounting and couldn't get a live person.

Reading between the lines, they aren't owner friendly; more likely they are developer friendly.  I also asked for the names of the board members and their contact information.  I'd think they have an obligation to field calls from members.

I've checked their website and they don't have any financials on there.  If they won't copy and mail, not sure how to address that.  I'm certainly not going to travel from Jersey to SC just to get the financials.  I'm from South Carolina but I don't know anyone that lives near Myrtle Beach.   We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.  

I'll try again every hour from here on out until I have a conversation with the right person.  Tomorrow is a light day and I can start calling right at 9:00 a.m.


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## glenmore

It seems a plan is developing. I called Plantation Resort today to ask when and where the meeting was. I was told the date of the meeting is March 21, 2014, but the person said they did not know the time or place . . . . yet.

I asked if the proposed variable maintenance dues was only for Presidential Villas at Plantation Resort, or for all the timeshares and the person said they were for ALL the timeshares there.

There are over 20 HOAs on property, so this has to cover a huge amount of timeshares and weeks.


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## twinmommy19

> I've checked their website and they don't have any financials on there. If they won't copy and mail, not sure how to address that.



The financials are important, but probably not as important as a list of owner mailing addresses or email addressed.  The thing with the financials is that if the developer is still paying for the unsold units, they won't show up in the fees receivable balance, right?  I'm certainly not an expert on timeshare financial statements though...  

In this case - power is going to be in numbers, so getting contact information will be critical.  Other than posting messages on the resorts social media pages (which they can remove if they want to), I'm not sure how else we can get that list unless the resort cooperates.  Either that or dig through years and years of Horry County deed public records but that would be very difficult.


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## twinmommy19

> It seems a plan is developing. I called Plantation Resort today to ask when and where the meeting was. I was told the date of the meeting is March 21, 2014, but the person said they did not know the time or place . . . . yet.



I don't understand how they can get away with withholding the amount of the proposed fee and other pertinent information from owners in advance of the meeting.  They keep saying "come to the meeting" but they know that most owners do not live anywhere near Plantation Resorts and this would be expensive and infeasible for most.  I too live in NJ and being that I am due to give birth two weeks later - there is just no way my husband or I can attend.

Any lawyers on here know if owners have a right to demand a bridge line for this meeting, being its importance?  At this day in age, there should be a proctored call in number so that owners at least have an option to participate / listen to a proposed policy changing meeting of this magnitude remotely.  I still don't think we'd get a majority to participate but forcing the masses to drop everything and fly to South Carolina as the only option to be able to hear the facts seems incredibly unreasonable.


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## gnorth16

bonk2boy said:


> Anyone want to bet that the new maintenance fee on the blue weeks will be less than $315?  The golf red weeks will go up but remain lower than $885 and the summer red owners can expect to pay an amount slightly lower than $1,040.




If my red week goes to $1040, I will gladly deed it back to the resort to resell.  That, or just give it away...


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## twinmommy19

> If my red week goes to $1040, I will gladly deed it back to the resort to resell. That, or just give it away...



The language in the letter said - it's logical for red week owners to pay a "little" more than blue week owners for access to more amenities.  A 50%+ hike in fees would not be a little, so we'll have to see what's actually being proposed.  Anyone hear anything else?

I just don't see the resort being able to sell those remaining points weeks in blue season successfully unless they could get the fees down to around a penny a point.


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## carl2591

hey guys 
not sure is you are reffering me.. I did talk with you about a unit last year but was able to do the deal at that time.. (had to sell a condo myself which did sell in dec last year 

We did make the meeting last year and got good info on MF writeoffs they are experiencing. Also the developer was doing something with the units, selling for points and paying something on MF it was indicated.  In other words it was helping the deal. 

this tiered program is a ruse of some sort. somehow the devolper has figured a way to make more money off the deal I bet.. 

any who, hope you are well
PS we are in Raleigh area. 




rickandcindy23 said:


> Carl lives near there, I cannot remember exactly where.  I just sold a week to him a few months ago.  He owns others, too, with his wife and daughters.  I think he might go to the meeting.


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## rickandcindy23

I sold a unit to a Carl and Carol Hughes, and they said they lived near there.  I guess I thought it was you, Carl.  Kind of funny! 

Maybe I can ask them if they are going to the meeting.


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## Pmuppet

Tiered MF's make sense but nearly impossible to implement once the property has been sold.

I agree with other posters that I would be furious if my resort tiered my MF's cause some idiot signed up for a timeshare in the offseason and they don't think it is fair that the prime fixed week and their low demand week pay the same MF's.

I agree they shouldn't pay the same MF's but once you buy into the resort, you are essentially buying into those low MF.  It is basic finance 101 and unless you plan on returning folks purchase prices, I don't see how you can change the MF's to tier them.

One possible solution is once the resort owns them that they can resell them with lower MF.  But that has drawbacks as well.


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## carl2591

Too funny,,
Us Carl's seem to run in herds. 

I will be going to meeting we are in HOA V (5) 1 of 18 for Presidential Villa's

If anyone wants a budget from last year let me know. I have that and the  annual meetings minutes from 2012. 

was sorry to see your week go.. we enjoy the place and wished we could have done the deal with you guys.

anywho, maybe we see you in MB that weekend. 

carl in NC





rickandcindy23 said:


> I sold a unit to a Carl and Carol Hughes, and they said they lived near there.  I guess I thought it was you, Carl.  Kind of funny!
> 
> Maybe I can ask them if they are going to the meeting.


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## carl2591

vacationhopeful said:


> Condomium Conventants and Restrictions - the rules under which the development was built and to be run by.



I was able to get them from resort if any is interested. Also got by laws and master deed.

send me pm


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## glenmore

Can you please post any pertinent info once you look them over!


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## Dandc3

rickandcindy23 said:


> It's Pines at Meadowridge in Fraser, CO.  It was set up as tiered 32 years ago, but the board is trying to change it.  I believe ski week owners pay about $700 per week, blue week owners pay $220 per week or so, and summer weeks pay $480.  These are two bedrooms, two baths and need a serious kitchen remodel, in my opinion.



Big difference!


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## glenmore

Anyone planning on going to the meeting in March?


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## rickandcindy23

I believe Carl is.  Carl, I would like to give you my proxies. I hope others do the same.


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## vckempson

glenmore said:


> Can you please post any pertinent info once you look them over!



Many thanks to Carl for getting these.  Here's the link to a google docs folder containing copies of the Master Deed, Bylaws, and Declarations.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9DYFoGJID5fSmpqUWY3bHBzcmc&usp=sharing

I had made note of several items when I first got it from Carl.  Unfortunately, I'm out doing what we're all supposed to do with TS's and that's travelling.  I'm currently in Daytona Beach, then going over to New Orleans for some of Mardi Gras.  I won't be back home to access my notes till the later in February.  

Some of my recollections.  

1.  As long as the developer has any units, he can appoint the Directors.  Seems like it will be a developer run board forever then.  There's a total of 3 directors on the board.
2.  Either a majority of the board or a majority of owners present and voting can pass a resolution
3.  No mention of supermajority needed for anything.
4.  Obviously they are subject to SC laws on condos and timeshares.
5.  My take on looking at those laws was that fees had to be pro-rated amongst the owners.  Seems that would shut the door on this, but's that's only my layman's impression.
6.  I seem to remember something about a quorum being 51% of owners present (proxies included, I guess).  I'm not positive about this one, as it would be hard then to imagine ever getting a quorum

Hopefully someone can make more sense of this than me.


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## glenmore

Have you received a proxy in the mail?  I have not and I own a timeshare unit as well as one-fourth of a condo at Plantation Resort.


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## carl2591

rickandcindy23 said:


> I believe Carl is.  Carl, I would like to give you my proxies. I hope others do the same.



Yes we are going.. we are in HOA V or (5) not sure i can vote proxy for other HOA's


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## gnorth16

*Who went to the Meeting?*

Is anyone there this weekend to update us on the "vote" with the developer owning all those blue weeks?  I already know the answer, but would love to hear more details.


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## JulieAB

gnorth16 said:


> Is anyone there this weekend to update us on the "vote" with the developer owning all those blue weeks?  I already know the answer, but would love to hear more details.



What was the answer??


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## glenmore

Why can't I see posts on this thread past February?  Did anyone go to the meeting? We were unable to attend


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## carl2591

*plantation resort HOA meeting*

I was at the meeting and no action was taken at this time. This, for the most part was to put the info out and see how the people in the room liked or disliked it and to have some discussions on what was going on. 

One idea was add 20 dollars on summer weeks and reduce blue by $80. The cost to maintain unit in summer is higher than winter with the difference appx $100 per unit per week. There was a good amount of info put out by Dave Nelson of PR.  According to "them" the amount of blue weeks behind or delinquent is appx 40ish%.  There is traffic in the area during Thanksgiving and Christmas but till March is slow. 

In fall you see traffic in forms of golfers and the resort is able to rent days, weeks during that time that show as income to resort. The resort has good deals with 8 nice courses but no real stay play packages like other resorts. 

I myself have gone on good packages in december with room, meals and golf for good prices at other resorts. 

March sees a lot of candians coming in and golf courses are, at least the ones we called, busting at them seams with players. 

Overall it was a good meeting. 
if you were not there WHY not.. i know for some its a long haul, lucky for us it's  3 hrs drive.


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## csxjohn

carl2591 said:


> I was at the meeting and no action was taken at this time. This, for the most part was to put the info out and see how the people in the room liked or disliked it and to have some discussions on what was going on.
> 
> One idea was add 20 dollars on summer weeks and reduce blue by $80. The cost to maintain unit in summer is higher than winter with the difference appx $100 per unit per week. There was a good amount of info put out by Dave Nelson of PR.  According to "them" the amount of blue weeks behind or delinquent is appx 40ish%.  There is traffic in the area during Thanksgiving and Christmas but till March is slow.
> 
> In fall you see traffic in forms of golfers and the resort is able to rent days, weeks during that time that show as income to resort. The resort has good deals with 8 nice courses but no real stay play packages like other resorts.
> 
> I myself have gone on good packages in december with room, meals and golf for good prices at other resorts.
> 
> March sees a lot of candians coming in and golf courses are, at least the ones we called, busting at them seams with players.
> 
> Overall it was a good meeting.
> if you were not there WHY not.. i know for some its a long haul, lucky for us it's  3 hrs drive.



Carl, after attenting the meeting are you ready to run from this resort or do you feel it's still a good place to own?  I'm asking because a couple TUGGERS have offerd units on the bargain deals for this resort.


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## glenmore

I will throw in my opinion if you don't mind. 

We own one-fourth of a condo there as well as a timeshare. We have been an owner for 8 years. The resort is well managed and well maintained. We love the area, known as "Surfside, the Family Beach" because it is low key and many people actually live there. It is not mainly rentals in Surfside Beach. 

The beaches are great and it is close to Market Commons.  Just a short drive to Murrells Inlet. We plan to own there for many years to come. 

Had hoped to make the meting but unexpected surgery on a grandson took us in another direction (he is fine now). Glad you made the meeting and thanks for the info.


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## csxjohn

glenmore said:


> I will throw in my opinion if you don't mind.
> 
> We own one-fourth of a condo there as well as a timeshare. We have been an owner for 8 years. The resort is well managed and well maintained. We love the area, known as "Surfside, the Family Beach" because it is low key and many people actually live there. It is not mainly rentals in Surfside Beach.
> 
> The beaches are great and it is close to Market Commons.  Just a short drive to Murrells Inlet. We plan to own there for many years to come.
> 
> Had hoped to make the meting but unexpected surgery on a grandson took us in another direction (he is fine now). Glad you made the meeting and thanks for the info.



I'm glad your grandson is fine, way more important than anything here in Timeshare World.

My previous question was directed at owning at this resort and it's many HOAs, not the Surfside Beach area, I do like the area.

My questions are moot because I've decided not to pursue ownership at this resort.  With the large number of HOAs, each representing a small number of units, the developer will probably control things for a long time to come.

I prefer an owner controlled board interested in keeping fees reasonable and not in generating profits for itself.


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## gnorth16

*Thanks Carl!!!*

Thank you for the update.  I was expecting a greater difference than $20 for summer weeks, which I have no problem with.  Was there any discussion on opening up reservations to owners at a discount within 30 days? (Or something similar to add benefits to Blue week owners?)

However, I doubt an $80 drop in fees will reduce the number of blue week owned by the HOA...


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## carl2591

that was my thinking as well. 

one question i had which is hard to get an answer was with all the different HOA how is the amount of stuff, elec, water, etc decided.  I am not sure if each building has it own meter or not. 

something i was wonder, and you guy at other resorts may have more info, the amount of MF for 2 building or 20 units according to this years summary for 2012 totals $673,710.00  TO me that sound like a lot but i have no other resort numbers to compare this too.  Our MF at now $720 dollars are not out of line with resort of this size and amenities. 

any thought on that.. ??


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## vckempson

Deleted post.  The answer was already posted.


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## carl2591

I know it been a while but wanted to get this update out..

We returned from a "Owners VIP Weekend" and had a blast. We got a 2 bedroom unit on site, one side of the Presidential Villa units. Check in on Fri was at 2 pm with a wine and cheese and other finger foods at the check in desk. 

We were given a nice VIP tag with lanyard. Our plan was to check in around 3 but due to a stop off and fricken traffic we did not make it till almost 5. 

After checking into we got the itinerary of events which included that night riding in the resorts Shuttle busses to a sit down dinner and tour of Ripley's Aquarium at Broadway at the Beach.. If you have not visited I highly suggest it.. The "Shark Tunnel" was great. Slow moving sidewalk through the giant aquarium was amazing. The food was excellent and a great time meeting some other owners from around the area. 

Some of the owners came from PA, SC, NC and VA I believe.. There were about 40 total. 


There are pictures and videos on Plantation Resorts Facebook page. 

On Sat we were treated to a breakfast and were scheduled for a the "Owners Update" at 9 am.. Of course this is the ole we want to sell you more deal.. We listened and declined the offer. I know of a couple of owners that took them up on the deal.. :ignore: 
It still amazes me how people do not check out stuff on timeshare on the internet.. I mentioned this site to a couple of owners as the place to get more info. 

Saturday day we drove around and check out some of my old hangouts when i lived in MB during the 80's,  Vanna White's brother Chip was the DJ at a resort I worked at during that time.. got to meet her and her friends from Calif.. 

That afternoon we again boarded busses and headed to Medieval Times for dinner and jousting.   After the event we hang around in seats and got picture of group with all the cast.. I am in upper row with red shirt on. guess they caught me adjusting my "crown" it appears. 

Sunday morning breakfast was delivered to the room with bagels, cream cheese, blueberry muffins coffee, apples oranges etc.. plus at check in there was a nice basket of fruit and water in reffer.  It was a nice time all for only $149 for the both of us.. That about covered the cost of stuff for the most part. amazingly the medieval times venue was almost full of patrons. I was quite surprised to see that, but in remember traffic on the way in I think the beach was 1/2 or so full.. 

Now for the update.. 

We were staying in a unit just off the end building. In the end unit the guys were doing some renovations. The countertop in kitchen, and both bath room was replace with granite, the carpet on floor was removed and all the old tile and replace with new tile all the way through unit.  there was a nice design piece in the front sitting area on the floor in tile to break up the design and it look nice. 

Same for the hotel unit, new counter tops and furnishings it looked like. They were in the middle of construction when i was chatting with the guy doing the work. He was a PR employee not contractor. 

The mirrors were being fitted with a nice trim to upgrade the look, new light fixtures, new couch, chairs, and furniture was being replaced i believe he was saying and there was furniture in plastic wrap as well. 

My understanding is all the end units both up and down will be redone. The upper will keep carpet in place and maybe replaced as needed.. same with appliances.. I was hoping to get new SS appliances to help upgrade the place a bit more.  have to see how that goes..

I guess this sorta explains the $179,000 line item in 2016 budget info we got in march as "Improvement Projects".. the amount last year was $36,000  That kicks the MF up from $756 to $792. When i bought my unit in June of 2012 the MF was $645. 

see pictures at http://www.chimneykeepers.com/?p=1283  the back splash is actually formica not granite..


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## glenmore

Thanks for the update, Carl. We had been invited but were not able to attend. Plantation Resort does an excellent job of keeping the amenities, landscape, and units in very good order. We enjoy our time there very much.


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