# Very Depressed



## casper38180 (Nov 14, 2010)

A little while ago I wrote this letter to Worldmark by Wyndham that will explain my story. 

Back in early November 2007 I was called by a person from "Wyndham" stating that I had 'won' a 'prize' and to collect it I had to be picked up by a limo on 28 November and taken to a 90 minute seminar and collect my 'prize' afterwards. I assumed it was something I had entered online so I agreed to be collected from work on that date.
On the date in question I was driven by limo to some location near Mitchim Victoria and sat through the '90 minute' seminar which went for about two and a half hours. Afterwards  I was introduced to 'Nikki Burns' (0408508219) who pressured us to 'invest in property' stating that worldmark was 'not timeshare'. When my husband and I went outside to discuss this "One time offer that is only available today' Nikki followed us out and continued her pressure sell. When we asked about the costs she avoided the answer by saying ' oh is about the cost of a cup of coffee a month.' She dragged us inside and gave us a huge pile of paperwork implying that I had to sign these to collect my 'prize'. It was 9pm by this stage and we were exhausted. Nikki implyed that if we did not sign that the limo would not be taking us home. So we signed everywhere she said to. Not once did she mention that what we were signing were contracts and when we asked to read them she huffed and puffed about the time, so we did not have time to read them. She then shoved us into a room with another lady who pushed us to go for the weekend to Ballarat Resort. We were then given the 'Prize' which was an MP3 Player that did not work.

We went to ballarat a week later. It would have to be the most discusting hotel I have ever stayed at. The room smelled of sex and dust. The hot water was not working and the bathroom window did not close. The carpet was so filthy that my husband and I kept our shoes on at all times. We were not close to any transport and no food was provided. There was no bath or spa or pool available (closed). There was no staff to be found until we were checking out and the lady there was rude and rolling her eyes at us. I have stayed at 3 star hotels better than this and you have the nerve to call it a 'resort.'

We took the paperwork home and read through them and finally.. on 30th December..we came to the contract. It appears that what we were signing into was a loan through Wyndham Finance for 'holiday time.' We eventually worked out what this was going to cost us and went into a panic. We would not have signed anything and friggen walked home if we had have known how much this was going to cost us. 

About a month later another sales lady called stating I had "won" a 'Prize." again from wyndham. I advised her that we had already been to a seminar and I had my broken MP3 player. She asked how much we earned per annum and I told her just under 38000per year. She advised that the invitation was only for people earning 40000plus. It appears that on my 'application for finance' someone has lied about our annual earnings to approve it. It also did not take into account that I had a 8000 cancelled credit card and debt collecters were calling me every other week. It should NOT have been approved.

From going through the paperwork and written notes I have the following complaints

- Nikki shoved the papers under our noses and forced us to 'confirm we have read' the paperwork (contract included) when we obviously havent.

- She did not give my husband and I time to discuss this 'property investment.'

- She did not inform us of the 14 day cooling off period.

- Lies on our application regarding our financial situation making us eligable for the substantial 'loan' through finance by wyndham.

- Forced us to stay until we had signed by implying that the limo would not take us home otherwise.'

- Finance by wyndham raise the fees without telling us.

- False advertising on the hotel ballarat as it was the worst hotel experience and does not look like the pictures in the book.

- We were told to sign today as this deal was only available on this one day and never again..(not giving us time to do research. It appears that this deal is every day since 1984.

- Lies by telling us 'It is not timeshare...Its a property investment." GUESS WHAT>>>ITS TIME SHARE.

- Lies by telling us we could always sell it back to wyndham if we did not want it anymore... NOT TRUE. Wyndham do not by back points. I was advised of a company called Redseason by one of your sales staff. Redseason offered to by it from us for just $3000. Leaving us with a debt of $9000.

I have tried on numerous occasions to discuss this with various hotlines in wyndham but have been confronted by Rude answers or hangups. I have contacted the Timeshare council, The financial Ombudsman and ACCC regarding this but they can do nothing unless I submit my complaints to you first.

I have also contacted my lawyer to go through the paperwork...many of which remain unsigned. 

Please advise if there is anything we can do to get rid of this timeshare catastrophy.

******************************************************

My lawyer says that in Victoria Australia there are no laws to protect people from this activity.  We are about to lose everything and declare bankrupsy as they just called demanding $4000 by the end of the week. We dont have that sort of money on hand so it looks like we are losing the house and ending up on the streets with our two daughters aged 2 and 3 months. I am crying as I write this. The woman from worldmark that I just spoke with said "Tuff." This company has no heart or soul and I plead with anyone that wishes to join them....DONT.


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## DeniseM (Nov 14, 2010)

Have you actually filed bankruptcy or talked to a lawyer?  

I don't know about Australia, but in the US, bankruptcy doesn't put you out on the street.  I'm sorry for your situation, but at this point, filing bankruptcy is probably the smartest thing you can do - it will get this debt off your back.

In the future, never, ever sign a contract you don't understand - you can't depend on anyone else to protect you.


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## casper38180 (Nov 14, 2010)

I will be filing at the end of the week. In Australia apparently when you file for bankrupsy they take your assets (house, car) and sell them to repay your debts. I sign nothing now. I have learnt my lesson. Just hoping nobody else falls into their trap. This should be illegal everywhere.


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## DeniseM (Nov 14, 2010)

In the US, they don't take your home and car, and they forgive some of your debt and create a repayment plan.

Good luck!


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## Goofyhobbie (Nov 15, 2010)

*What An Unfortunate Outcome*

casper38180,

Obviously to much time has gone by at this point. This horrible outcome was brought about because you were treated badly and you failed to act  during the recission period roughly three years ago.

Based on the facts as given, the Australian law was very generous and far more generous than similar laws in the States.  If you, under Australian law, had 14 days to reveiew the paperwork and failed to do so in that period you messed up big time.

But, as you pointed out, you have learned a valuable lesson. *NEVER *sign anything without reading the "fine print" carefully. Even then you should RUN if there is the slightest pressure to sign on the dotted line and you have not had an opportunity to fully understand what you are signing.

It appears to me, based on your version of what happened, that you could  have asked an attorney to allege that you were effectively held without your consent (kidnapped) by the marketing department of Worldmark. (Limo took you to presentation and was witheld until you signed the paperwork.)

In the U. S. such an argument, if made shortly after the incident and if supported by the evidence, could have been used as leverage to get Worldmark or Wyndham to void the contract. The attorney would have had to be very persuasive when he sent a letter making such an allegation; but, such an allegation if it could have been proven, may have caused the Corportation to give in.


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## siesta (Nov 15, 2010)

I am not too familiar with the laws in your country. But I would advise you not to claim bankruptcy, instead, default on the loan.  Check with a local attorney.


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## JudyS (Nov 15, 2010)

siesta said:


> I am not too familiar with the laws in your country. But I would advise you not to claim bankruptcy, instead, default on the loan.  Check with a local attorney.


I agree 100% with Siesta. What can Worldmark do to you if you don't pay? Here in the US, all they could do would be ruin your credit.  (Theoretically, a timeshare could sue to collect on the loan, but most won't bother.)

Also, I suggest going to Amazon's Australia site and buying some books on debts and/or bankruptcy. And, maybe do some google searches on debts and bankruptcy.


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## rwalker (Nov 16, 2010)

One additional thing to consider.  The contract likely has language called a "Choice of Law" or "Choice of Forum" clause.  That (particularly the choice of law clause) will likely dictate the law that will apply to your contract.  

If you were a victim of fraud, and if the contract is governed by any state in the U.S. your lawyer may have a good claim to get you out of the contract. 

Don't take this lying down.  Don't declare bankruptcy until you've explored all your options with a lawyer. 

Best of luck, 

RW


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## am1 (Nov 16, 2010)

JudyS said:


> I agree 100% with Siesta. What can Worldmark do to you if you don't pay? Here in the US, all they could do would be ruin your credit.  (Theoretically, a timeshare could sue to collect on the loan, but most won't bother.)
> 
> Also, I suggest going to Amazon's Australia site and buying some books on debts and/or bankruptcy. And, maybe do some google searches on debts and bankruptcy.



I guess that is why Wyndham/Worldmark have to gouge international buyers on the interest rates.

In a global economy this sort of thing is a problem.


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## rwalker (Nov 17, 2010)

Definitely consult a lawyer on this one.  A lawyer in the jurisdiction where you signed the contract.  

Google "Timeshare Lawyer" and you should get a number of options.   I would venture a guess to suggest that any law firm likely has a "free consultation" to assess the merit of your case before you would have to outlay any money.  

To get more specific, google "Florida Timeshare Lawyer" or "California Timeshare Lawyer"... inserting the state where you signed your contract.  

Do this quickly as time is likely of the essence with these types of things. 

RW


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## DeniseM (Nov 17, 2010)

The OP is in Australia, and bought her TS in 2007 - the window of opportunity is probably long gone.

I am wondering if they are having other financial difficulties, besides the TS.

Also - if you do a google search, you are very likely to come up with the scammers who claim to be able to get your money back, but are scammers themselves.  The OP would be better off using someome local and reputable.


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## rwalker (Nov 17, 2010)

Scammers posting as lawyers....? That's even more serious.  If you know of any like that, well they are breaking a whole whack of laws.


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## rwalker (Nov 17, 2010)

rwalker said:


> Definitely consult a lawyer on this one.  A lawyer in the jurisdiction where you signed the contract.
> 
> Google "Timeshare Lawyer" and you should get a number of options.   I would venture a guess to suggest that any law firm likely has a "free consultation" to assess the merit of your case before you would have to outlay any money.
> 
> ...




I did understand that the OP was in Australia, what was not clear was whether the timeshare they bought in 2007 was in Australia and/or whether the timeshare sales contract is governed by the laws of Australia or a US jurisdiction.  Those contract details matter and if the OP was fraudulently induced or coerced or otherwise into signing on the dotted line and if the contract is governed by the laws of a US state, then they should contact a U.S. lawyer in the state by which the contract is governed.


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## DeniseM (Nov 17, 2010)

> Back in early November 2007 I was called by a person from "Wyndham" stating that I had 'won' a 'prize' and to collect it I had to be picked up by a limo on 28 November and taken to a 90 minute seminar and collect my 'prize' afterwards. I assumed it was something I had entered online so I agreed to be collected from work on that date.  On the date in question I was driven by limo to some location near *Mitchim Victoria *



According to her original post, she bought the timeshare in Australia.  

Unfortunately, we hear this kind of story all the time.  No matter what you are told verbally, when you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms of the contract - whether you read it or not.  

Besides that, I can't imagine that the OP has the funds to hire an attorney and sue a major corporation, if she is about to declare bankruptcy.  

I suspect they have other financial problems, besides the TS loan, or they wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy.


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## rwalker (Nov 17, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> According to her original post, she bought the timeshare in Australia.



That doesn't answer the question of where she is deeded and what jurisdiction's law governs the contract.  She signed the contract in Australia (which arguably means Australian law likely applies) but the contract could be deeded to Wyndham Bonnet Creek (which arguably means FL law could apply) the contract itself could state that NY or DE law applies (making a strong argument for NY or DE law).  



DeniseM said:


> Unfortunately, we hear this kind of story all the time.  No matter what you are told verbally, when you sign a contract, you are agreeing to the terms of the contract - whether you read it or not.



Signing a contract under duress or fraud often has legal ramifications. Even in Australia, as a country with a legal system based upon the British Commonwealth.



DeniseM said:


> Besides that, I can't imagine that the OP has the funds to hire an attorney and sue a major corporation, if she is about to declare bankruptcy.
> 
> I suspect they have other financial problems, besides the TS loan, or they wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy.



If funds are that tight, I would imagine pro bono legal help would be available. 

My point in continuing to monitor this thread (and in replying) is not to debate you Denise.   Rather, I am trying to offer the OP some other options.  I have no personal stake in this matter one way or another, I just want the OP to know there may be other options other than declaring bankruptcy. 

RW


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## DeniseM (Nov 17, 2010)

rwalker - Let me come at this from another direction.  I know you are trying to be helpful, but on TUG, we hear this story a dozen times a week.  These big corporations have smart lawyers who KNOW people are going to be unhappy once they get home and read their contracts.  These contracts are NOT easy to get out of, and it's been 3 years since they signed it.  It would have been easy to get out of in the legal rescission time - but 3 years later? - No way.

After seeing this situation over and over again, I do not think any lawyer is going to take this case Pro Bono because:  1) It's not winnable.  2) People who want to sue timeshare developers are a dime a dozen.  3)  They waited way too long to take action.

Also, note that she has already seen a lawyer:  





> My lawyer says that in Victoria Australia there are no laws to protect people from this activity.



I hope the OP will come back and give us an update, because my gut feeling is that this is not their only financial problem - my guess is that it's just the tip of the ice berg, thus the need to file for bankruptcy.  YMMV


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## rwalker (Nov 18, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> These big corporations have smart lawyers who KNOW people are going to be unhappy once they get home and read their contracts.  These contracts are NOT easy to get out of, and it's been 3 years since they signed it.  It would have been easy to get out of in the legal rescission time - but 3 years later? - No way.



If there was a clear case of fraud, which is what the OP's story at least hints at, there may be a way out of the contract.  Just because there is a paper contract with OP's signature on it, does not mean she is automatically bound by it (in most cases she is).  But, on the other hand if there was evidence of fraud surrounding the transaction and if she was held hostage or if she was not told she was signing a purchase contract then it is possible she may have a way out.  



DeniseM said:


> After seeing this situation over and over again, I do not think any lawyer is going to take this case Pro Bono because:  1) It's not winnable.  2) People who want to sue timeshare developers are a dime a dozen.  3)  They waited way too long to take action.



You assume that a lawyer's metric for taking a pro bono case is whether it is winnable.  It really would be a shame if that were the case.  

They may have waited too long, or maybe they didn't.  What is the statute of limitations on fraud in Australia?  That is still an open question.  

If there were misrepresentations of fact that led to the signing of the contract, there may still be time for rescission, but that would require a lawyer in the jurisdiction taking a good look at the facts on the ground. 

I realize she saw a lawyer, but perhaps armed with some of these ideas she could ask her lawyer some new questions and get a more definitive answer.  

I get it that it is possible that she is making up some of the details of the story to make herself feel that she had no choice but to sign the papers.  Maybe she is, and maybe she is not.  I have seen and heard some pretty awful stories when it comes to TS retail sales presentations.  I would not put it past an ethically challenged TS sales person to go to any means to get someone to sign a contract. 

I am also not trying to give the OP false hope.  You are correct, these are large corporations with high priced legal advisors who draft these contracts.  But, I may be mistaken on this, IMO the best drafted most legal contract in the world isn't worth the paper it is drafted on if the signatory was the victim of fraud when they signed. 

I just think the OP ought to really ask their lawyer to investigate these ideas.  Don't be a victim here, at least go down swinging.  That's just my opinion of course....  Isn't everyone entitled to my opinion?  

We're all on the same team here.  

RW


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## siesta (Nov 18, 2010)

rwalker said:


> You assume that a lawyer's metric for taking a pro bono case is whether it is winnable.  It really would be a shame if that were the case.


This is normally not the case, far from it actually.


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## Explorer7 (Nov 20, 2010)

siesta said:


> I am not too familiar with the laws in your country. But I would advise you not to claim bankruptcy, instead, default on the loan.  Check with a local attorney.




I agree, ref don't rush to bankruptcy. Most bill collectors are trained to create an emotional responce on your end. They are often more bark than bite, but they are trained to bark loudly... In the US You are not bankrupt until they first go through the process of taking you to court and winning a judgement against you which they will because you owe the money. But then they have to also go back and seek to garnish wages etc in order to enforce the judgement. Until they jump through all the various hoops you are not actually bankrupt until your income is directly threatened. Sometimes before you get there they will settle for much less than you owe because if you have lillte or nothing they have wasted more of their money going after you.  You have more power than you know... I wish the best for you...

ID


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