# Why buying a developer week is better



## slawson928 (Apr 8, 2009)

I have been debating buying a developer week at Ocean Watch because I do use the points system and there isn't that huge of a difference between the current 25% sale and the resale prices.  Granted that will change after April 22nd.  

Anyway this is an email I just got back from a sales rep.  I replied to her messsage to ask her how she calculated the lost of $15K in vacations.

Enjoy!

"Yes you can put the entire amount on your Marriott visa if you choose.  In regards to your decision about doing something on the secondary market, that is a choice you have to make, but you really will be missing out.  There are several reasons why you should purchase directly through Marriott VS the secondary market.  The reason our product is considered the best timeshare product besides the quality of resorts is the absolute fact that we connect our product to the Marriott Hotel system via the Marriott Rewards Program!!  Buying this product without that main feature is like buying is like buying a Mercedes without power windows, power seats, air conditioner and no leather seats- it simply is not worth it!  You are better off not buying the product at all because you will not be happy at any price.

The Marriott Rewards program has won the national award 9 times as best loyalty program, again you do not want to own a timeshare with Marriott and leave out the best part.  Why give up approximately $15,000 in trips to the best hotels in the world, and that is only during the first 5 years of ownership-over 10 years you have made up the difference in price by a large margin.  Please get back to me and let me know what you decide."


----------



## Latravel (Apr 8, 2009)

While I wouldn't purchase a timeshare right now from Marriott directly, she is writing exactly what my husband and I believe.  I'm sure there will be tons of comments about being uninformed or whatever, but in our opinion, she is right.

One of the major benefits of buying a timeshare from a major hotel line is to be able to seamlessly switch from timeshare to hotel use.  This was the main reason we bought all of our timeshares from Marriott (yes, we knew about TUG) and why we enjoy lots of nice non-timeshare vacations.  

If you buy resale, you don't have full use of the Marriott vacation system but some people don't want or need it or don't care.


----------



## OCsun (Apr 8, 2009)

Reason to buy resale:  The price is normally 60% of the developers price.

Reasons to buy from the developer:
  The upfront points incentive which could allow you to take a vacation for free.  If you add in the points you will get using your Marriott Charge Card, you could get a full vacation package including airfare.  However, getting frequent flier seats when you want them, is another story.

   The timeshare could be traded for Marriott points every other year which could be used TOWARD future vacations.  I say TOWARD, because the amount of points you receive for giving up a two bedroom timeshare are not enough to pay for a one week stay in any comparable Marriott.

Ask yourself, if you really want to pay an annual maintenance fee to use points for a hotel room that you could probably rent for the same amount.

Ask yourself, if the amount of initial incentive points alone will purchase you the same kind of vacation you could purchase yourself for the difference between a resale and the developers sale.

Just some food for thought which I hope will be helpful!  Good luck with your decision.  Pam,


----------



## slawson928 (Apr 8, 2009)

I bought my first TS directly from Marriott but I didn't know about TUG at the time.  Looking back I wouldn't do anything different as I have used the point system and see the value in it.  Having said that, since I already have one TS that I can trade for points I don't necessarily need another that trades for points.   I found it assuming that she compared to a Mercedes with out all the options. IMHO I think buying resales is more like buying a Mercedes without the car loaner program. 

I am still debating whether or not to purchase developer or resale or not at all.


----------



## ecwinch (Apr 8, 2009)

Dovetailing into what OCSun said, the salesperson analysis is flawed. Trading a MVCI resort for a Marriott hotel room is a poor economic choice.  Ask her for some detailed examples of what your points will buy you. Ask her how you would enjoy those vacations if you had a family of four and were in a standard Marriott hotel room.

And ask her about protection from future points adjustments (devaluation).


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 8, 2009)

I bought two resales and saved $32,000 over developer prices. How many points is that? 

I have a Marriott Visa card and use it to pay my maintenance fees, stays at Marriott hotels when I travel, and other stuff. With now owning timeshares I use my Marriott points for single stays (normally 30,000 points for a $300 room) when travelling with the family and not for vacations. A week at the Frenchman's Reef hotel in a resort view basic room is 180,000 points.

Trading in a weeks usage for Marriott points does not make economic sense. The points don't go as far as they did in the past. More points are required for stays, especially at the nicer Marriotts if there are "point" rooms still available when you want to travel.


----------



## FlyerBobcat (Apr 8, 2009)

*Question.... ???*

So does the current 25% Marriott promotion allow for *both *the incentive bonus points *AND *the ability to exchange your week for points every other year?

Assuming yes to the above....

slawson928:  How many incentive points are they offering???


----------



## slawson928 (Apr 8, 2009)

Actually at Ocean Watch you can redeem for points every year not that I would. 

No incentive points except for the self refferal of 50k.


----------



## Zac495 (Apr 8, 2009)

Remember you can buy Marriott points every year. 1300 gets you 100,000 points. So if you buy a timeshare direct from Marriott and the maintenance fees are 1300 (or a little less or a little more)it's the SAME thing. Save the 60%. But resale. Buy your points each year. 

The incentive points are not worth 60% of the price.


----------



## FlyerBobcat (Apr 8, 2009)

slawson928 said:


> Actually at Ocean Watch you can redeem for points every year not that I would.
> *No incentive points* except for the self refferal of 50k.



None (except for the self-referral) ????

Wow....  I've love to hear her explanation on:



> Why give up approximately $15,000 in trips to the best hotels in the world, and that is only during the first 5 years of ownership


----------



## LordCambridge (Apr 8, 2009)

When I read comments like the below, everything the author says has diminished credibility.  To tell you with absolute certainty you will not be happy, isn't possible.  I bought resale and couldn't be happier with my purchase.


slawson928 said:


> You are better off not buying the product at all because you will not be happy at any price.


----------



## larue (Apr 8, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> And ask her about protection from future points adjustments (devaluation).



And ask her why they have a clause in the sales contract that specifies that they can modify or even discontinue points at their sole discretion any time they feel like it?  If the points were guaranteed in perpetuity like the ownership of the underlying interest in real property itself, you might be able to come up with an analysis of why it would make sense to buy from the developer.  As long as they have a loophole that allows them to take the rug out from under the developer-direct buyers, there is no way it can be justified unless it is by someone who has already purchased and is looking for a way to justify that decision.


----------



## ecwinch (Apr 8, 2009)

larue said:


> And ask her why they have a clause in the sales contract that specifies that they can modify or even discontinue points at their sole discretion any time they feel like it?  If the points were guaranteed in perpetuity like the ownership of the underlying interest in real property itself, you might be able to come up with an analysis of why it would make sense to buy from the developer.  As long as they have a loophole that allows them to take the rug out from under the developer-direct buyers, there is no way it can be justified unless it is by someone who has already purchased and is looking for a way to justify that decision.



Great point. So her Mercedes analogy should have the cavet, that we can come and take away your A/C, power windows, and leather seats whenever we want. Something like:

_Buying this product without that main feature is like buying is like buying a Mercedes without power windows, power seats, air conditioner and no leather seats. Note we reserve the right to repossess the car and remove those features at our discretion in the future._


----------



## Latravel (Apr 8, 2009)

I highly doubt they would take away the rewards program from direct purchasers.  If they took away the ability to trade for points, they would seriously damage their reputation and sales capability.  On average, Marriott direct owners buy an average of 4 weeks from Marriott so I don't think they would jeopardize that profitable relationship.  

On the other hand, since changing the program is at their discretion as you state, I would be more worried they would further restrict use of the Marriott system to resale purchasers who are slowly taking away a few of their sales and boasting about it!

It is a business after all and Marriott is very good at what they do.


----------



## ral (Apr 8, 2009)

Did I read correctly in the first post that MVCI is now accepting payment in full using the Marriott Visa Credit Card?


----------



## Latravel (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes!  I bought my Shadow Ridge units with my Marriott credit card just for points.  I wouldn't do it if you don't intend to pay off the balance as soon as you get the bill.


----------



## IuLiKa (Apr 9, 2009)

ral said:


> Did I read correctly in the first post that MVCI is now accepting payment in full using the Marriott Visa Credit Card?



Couple of years ago I paid with my Delta Amex, they let me make two payments (called and gave them my credit card two months in a row). As a side bonus, they were running a double miles on everything, so I was happy. I did not have a Marriott Visa at the time. 
J


----------



## javabean (Apr 9, 2009)

Just a couple more comments. 

I believe Marriott will no longer let you finance the purchase on your VISA. I believe we were just given "bonus" points because of their decision to cancel the program.

We purchased through Marriott before finding our way to TUG. Like many before us, we might have done it different but now we will try and work within the system.  

If a family only has a given number of weeks to vacation, and a limited budget to travel, then turning in a timeshare week for points does work. You have already committed the MF money, and you can use the points for short or long stays at hotels without committing any more family time or money for hotel stays. I agree than it does not make the best sense economically but does have a place within a family's consideration. 

We leave Barony tomorrow  . It has been cold but wonderful. Be aware that 5 out of the 7 grills in the main section are not working. Thanks again for all the good HH and Barony suggestions. 

Deb


----------



## MOXJO7282 (Apr 9, 2009)

javabean said:


> I believe Marriott will no longer let you finance the purchase on your VISA.



If you mean purchase entirely on your Marrriott Visa, I believe there are allowing currently. That can add to the value of the purchase quite a bit.

My take is this. The only people that should consider buying direct are those that have a major channel for acquiring MR points outside of turning in for points, to supplement their total points accumulation.

If you are someone who can garner 150k points at least every 2 years, then maintaining the ability to trade in for points, and therefore buying direct, can make sense. Acquiring that amount of points is not easy, but if you own a business or travel on business alot, it is possible. 

Then when you do trade in for points, with the other points, you can secure the travel packages that as many have displayed on this site to be very valuable. You could theoritcially receive $5-7k in value every few years. Something again you can't do owning a resale.

I know a fellow that travels extensively for a major software company and he does exactly what I'm suggesting and trades in for points every other year with one of his units. He takes these tremendous trips all over the world and saves a fortune in flying and resort costs. He just got back from Puerto Rico, and said the Marriott there was top shelf. There are a ton of great Marriott hotels, many never mentioned on TUG that he has gone to.

I see this as something not many can do unless you have a similiar situation I described with my friend, so otherwise buying direct just doesn't make sense, but in some cases it can of course.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh dear!  Here we go again opening this can of worms for the millionith time


----------



## ldanna (Apr 9, 2009)

slawson928 said:


> Buying this product without that main feature is like buying is like buying a Mercedes without power windows, power seats, air conditioner and no leather seats- it simply is not worth it!  You are better off not buying the product at all because you will not be happy at any price.."



I don't like this analogy. Firts of all, Mercedes doesn't sell cars with all those standars, that's ridiculous. The difference should be focuses on buying from an authorized dealer or from some car salesman. Buying a brand new car with warranty or not. Buying an used Mercedes from a dealer that checked the car and someone that didn't.

If you trust the brand and the car is good condition, it doesn't matter where you are buying it from. If you want extra warranty and like to stop buy once in a while at your dealer and get a free check of you car while you enjoy a good cup of coffee and that's fine.

The product is th same AND they sold all the resales once. Points are useful for some people, and not useful for others.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 9, 2009)

_Oh dear! Here we go again opening this can of worms for the millionith time!_

So true but it's interesting to see the approach taken by salespeople.


----------



## tlwmkw (Apr 9, 2009)

*Times have changed*

When we bought our Grande Vista week we had no plans to buy- we were staying at the Renaissance opposite Sea World on vacation.  They hooked us in at the front desk for a tour.  Anyway we bought the week and they gave us Marriott Dollars which covered our stay at the Renaissance ($900) and a boat load of MRP's which we still haven't used up (so far they have saved us a few thousand dollars in hotel room fees), and free passes to Sea World for the day (and they drove us over in a golf cart to Sea World).  I do wish we'd known about re-sale but with all the bonuses they gave us then it has made up for a lot of the difference in cost.  I don't think you can get these kind of deals now so it makes buying direct less attractive.  I wonder if they will start giving more incentives with the current economic situation?  They don't like to lower their prices but you can bargain for other goodies.  By the way does anyone know if they still have those Marriott Dollars?  They were like a cheque for a certain amount and then they filled your name in on the dotted line.  When we checked out and paid our bill with them the lady at check out had big eyes and said "You must have been saving up for a long time".


----------



## cp73 (Apr 9, 2009)

*Why buying from developer is good*

I am glad and appreciate those of you who have purchased direct from the developer and see there are positive benefits to buying direct. I definately agree there are positive benefits to buying direct. 

Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone decided buying resale was the only way to go. Marriott would stop building new resorts because there would be no direct buyers. Ease up on the arguments against buying direct. You really don't want everyone to buy resale and its not for everyone.


----------



## NWL (Apr 9, 2009)

cp73 said:


> Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone decided buying resale was the only way to go. Marriott would stop building new resorts because there would be no direct buyers. Ease up on the arguments against buying direct. You really don't want everyone to buy resale and its not for everyone.



Thank you Chris.


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 9, 2009)

ldanna said:


> I don't like this analogy. Firts of all, Mercedes doesn't sell cars with all those standars, that's ridiculous. The difference should be focuses on buying from an authorized dealer or from some car salesman. Buying a brand new car with warranty or not. Buying an used Mercedes from a dealer that checked the car and someone that didn't.
> 
> If you trust the brand and the car is good condition, it doesn't matter where you are buying it from. If you want extra warranty and like to stop buy once in a while at your dealer and get a free check of you car while you enjoy a good cup of coffee and that's fine.
> 
> The product is th same AND they sold all the resales once. Points are useful for some people, and not useful for others.



Some people like that new car smell and that's why they buy a new car with all the trimmings even though it loses its value a soon as they drive it off the lot. 

With all of the knowledgeable people on TUG, I am always surprised when this comes up. I have learned so much on this site about using my timeshares to get the maximum out of them. If you use your developer bought timeshare the right way, you can get the extra money you paid back. It all depends on what you do.

If you take all of the MRP you are given, use your Visa wisely and use your trade ins, you can benefit greatly from buying from the developer. There are sometimes place you want to go and there just aren't any timeshares. Last summer when I was in Japan there were no timeshares. However, there were some really nice Marriott hotels that I had no problem staying at. My MRP were better than the exchange rate of the dollar with the yen. 

I have traded for points and it has not cost me anything other than when I trade my timeshare in for points. If you use your Marriott Visa cards on business trips and stay at Marriotts, and if you pay monthly bills on the card (and pay them off each month so you don't get charged interest) Those points add up very, very quickly at no extra expense. You don't even need to purchase points for $1325. 

I know that on this site people are wild about the resale sales. I can understand why. However, I like combining my trade for points from my timeshare with my family's earned points. I have great flexibility and it is not costing me anything since I am paying for stuff I was going to have to pay for anyway. I just used a different form of payment. 

I can easily say that I got my money back since I bought pre-construction and received about 250,000 MRP. If you are smart, the developer purchase can still be a good buy. It depends on how you use what you have.


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 9, 2009)

*Developer Purchases aren't All Bad*



ldanna said:


> I don't like this analogy. Firts of all, Mercedes doesn't sell cars with all those standars, that's ridiculous. The difference should be focuses on buying from an authorized dealer or from some car salesman. Buying a brand new car with warranty or not. Buying an used Mercedes from a dealer that checked the car and someone that didn't.
> 
> If you trust the brand and the car is good condition, it doesn't matter where you are buying it from. If you want extra warranty and like to stop buy once in a while at your dealer and get a free check of you car while you enjoy a good cup of coffee and that's fine.
> 
> The product is th same AND they sold all the resales once. Points are useful for some people, and not useful for others.



Some people like that new car smell and that's why they buy a new car with all the trimmings even though it loses its value a soon as they drive it off the lot. 

With all of the knowledgeable people on TUG, I am always surprised when this comes up. I have learned so much on this site about using my timeshares to get the maximum out of them. If you use your developer bought timeshare the right way, you can get the extra money you paid back. It all depends on what you do.

If you take all of the MRP you are given, use your Visa wisely and use your trade ins, you can benefit greatly from buying from the developer. There are sometimes place you want to go and there just aren't any timeshares. Last summer when I was in Japan there were no timeshares. However, there were some really nice Marriott hotels that I had no problem staying at. My MRP were better than the exchange rate of the dollar with the yen. 

I have traded for points and it has not cost me anything other than when I trade my timeshare in for points. If you use your Marriott Visa cards on business trips and stay at Marriotts, and if you pay monthly bills on the card (and pay them off each month so you don't get charged interest) Those points add up very, very quickly at no extra expense. You don't even need to purchase points for $1325. 

I know that on this site people are wild about the resale sales. I can understand why. However, I like combining my trade for points from my timeshare with my family's earned points. I have great flexibility and it is not costing me anything since I am paying for stuff I was going to have to pay for anyway. I just used a different form of payment. 

I can easily say that I got my money back since I bought pre-construction and received about 250,000 MRP. If you are smart, the developer purchase can still be a good buy. It depends on how you use what you have.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 9, 2009)

Everyone has a different situation. For us we would use Marriott points every year for our vacations. Now that we own timeshares we have more Marriott points than we can use. We end up using them for single overnights or trade them in for airline miles for flights. 

The current promotion closes the gap in prices between resale and developer. Most developer sales are made as spur of the moment decisions while on vacation with agressive sales tactics. A couple of rum drinks never hurt either. To each their own. In any case enjoy your timeshares for what we haev them for - VACATION.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 9, 2009)

Thank You Chris.  You are of course very much on point.  If no one bought direct from Marriott then there would be no new resorts for all those re-sale buyers to trade to.  So all of you resale purchasers can now join in in one big Thank You to all of us who bought direct


----------



## Latravel (Apr 9, 2009)

_"Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone decided buying resale was the only way to go. Marriott would stop building new resorts because there would be no direct buyers. Ease up on the arguments against buying direct. You really don't want everyone to buy resale and its not for everyone."_

Completely agree.  This is one of the best comments I have read on TUG in a long time.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone decided buying resale was the only way to go. Marriott would stop building new resorts because there would be no direct buyers. Ease up on the arguments against buying direct. You really don't want everyone to buy resale and its not for everyone."_
> 
> Completely agree.  This is one of the best comments I have read on TUG in a long time.



Maybe Marriott need to do something to hold up resale values. Maybe the developer prices do not represent the "value" of their product. 

There is a saying that bears and bulls get rich, pigs get slaughtered. Maybe Marriott has been piggish for trying to sell timeshare units for too much and taking advantage of people on vacation with strong and deceptive selling techniques. It's on the developer to keep the value of their product up. The resale market will follow their lead and prices will be what the market says the prices should be.


----------



## OCsun (Apr 9, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Thank You Chris.  You are of course very much on point.  If no one bought direct from Marriott then there would be no new resorts for all those re-sale buyers to trade to.  So all of you resale purchasers can now join in in one big Thank You to all of us who bought direct



THANK YOU!  :whoopie:


----------



## tombo (Apr 9, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Thank You Chris.  You are of course very much on point.  If no one bought direct from Marriott then there would be no new resorts for all those re-sale buyers to trade to.  So all of you resale purchasers can now join in in one big Thank You to all of us who bought direct



 I agree. I thank those who purchased retail weeks allowing the resorts to build new resorts for us to stay in, and for those retail buyers who defaulted on their loans freeing up cheap resale weeks for us to buy. 

It is a fact that all new resort developments and subsequent resales come courtesy of the original buyers paying very high retail prices when they bought from the developer. It is also true that if people stop buying retail from developers that there will not be any new resorts built. That doesn't mean that I would try to convince a family member, friend, co-worker, or even an acquaintance to buy retail from a developer just so I could travel to new resorts in the future and have the possibility of buying some cheap resales. Would any here tell their children to buy retail knowing how cheap the resale prices currently are?  I couldn't with good conscience.

As far as new timeshares go, the new car smell is gone after the first couple of owners vacation there. After that all are staying in used timeshares whether they purchased retail from the developer, or resale.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 9, 2009)

You're Welcome!


----------



## MikeM132 (Apr 10, 2009)

I've bought all 3 of mine from Marriott. I believe I overpaid quite a bit at this point. It is convenient to buy from them, and you do get some points. I converted mine into 2 Hawaii vacations so far. I still use the "black" Visa and get points that way, but not so many. Trading for points is something I consider the option of last resort---worst value but better than nothing. I recently get an AA credit card and earn airline miles that way. This is FAR more efficient than Marriott (3 points for 1 mile vs 1 buck for 1 mile in AA). My primary use for MAR poinst is FF miles. Hotels are a waste, pretty much, since we stay in a timeshare. Anyhow, even at this rate unless I buy another timeshare (not likely) or cash in a year for points (also not likely) it will take a long time to accumulate enough miles/points for another vacation for free. 
Even worse now that they have revaluated the trip packages.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 10, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Thank You Chris.  You are of course very much on point.  If no one bought direct from Marriott then there would be no new resorts for all those re-sale buyers to trade to.  So all of you resale purchasers can now join in in one big Thank You to all of us who bought direct



Maybe you should rally people here to go to Florida and buy all of the house that are for sale and pay the prices that the houses were selling for three years ago when developers were asking high prices for the houses. Then the developers could start building new houses again that you could buy at over-inflated prices. I do not understand your logic.


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 10, 2009)

*Barnum had it right*



Powerguy said:


> Maybe you should rally people here to go to Florida and buy all of the house that are for sale and pay the prices that the houses were selling for three years ago when developers were asking high prices for the houses. Then the developers could start building new houses again that you could buy at over-inflated prices. I do not understand your logic.



The ability of human nature to come up with justification for expenditures is virtually unlimited.  It is almost equaled by the desire to have others pay the same or more and to agree with the decision(s).


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 10, 2009)

You cannot apply the same logic to the purchase of a home because you do not have the ability to trade the use of your home for a home at another location.
If the first Marriott time share location had not sold well to people who were willing to purchase at Marriott prices then Marriott probably would not have continued to expand into other locations since they would not have seen the timeshare business as a lucrative operation.  Because you have a large number of people who are willing to buy direct from Marriott they continue to make a profit and thus continue to build at new locations.  So, those of you who purchased resale now have a huge network of Marriott properties to trade into because of people who purchased direct.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 10, 2009)

I don't think you can compare a timeshare where you get perks based on if you bought from the developer to a home in Florida.

There's actually a difference with the use of your timeshare if you purchase from Marriott while there is not difference if you buy a home from a developer or Mr. Smith in Florida.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 10, 2009)

I agree that, for some people, buying direct is a better decision- whether it is for ease of purchase, peace of mind when purchasing, having bought early pre-construction and enjoying a good purchase price and incentives or buying firect to enjoy the flexibility of being able to trade for points. I feel that there is no "wrong" way to buy as long as the consumer has been informed of the true costs and the true differences and is making a knowledgeable purchase, and is buying something they can afford and will enjoy using.

Neither side is "smarter" than the other. We all make our personal choices. For me, the ability to trade for points and give up the use of an expensive weeks which also incurs high annual MF's just doesn't seem worth it, and that is my personal choice, so I have bought resale. Kudos to those who bought direct and allowed MVCI to prosper and build new developments and I sincerely hope you both enjoy your purchase and continue to purchase in the future, because it is good for all of us. Admittedly, direct buyers will probably laugh all the way when they are on some fabulous European trips while resale purchasers will enjoy their savings how they see fit and, hopefully, we will all be happy with our decisions. There is no right and wrong here, just different perspectives. That's what makes the world go round.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 10, 2009)

M61376,  ITA.  Now if some of the more determined resale purchasers would try to remember that "One size does not fit all" when a potential purchaser comes onto TUG and asks for advice about a potential purchase what a happy board we would be.  As a matter of fact perhaps we could all join cyber hands and sing Kumbya


----------



## Bill4728 (Apr 10, 2009)

m61376 said:


> I agree that, for some people, buying direct is a better decision- whether it is for ease of purchase, peace of mind when purchasing, having bought early pre-construction and enjoying a good purchase price and incentives or buying firect to enjoy the flexibility of being able to trade for points. I feel that there is no "wrong" way to buy as long as the consumer has been informed of the true costs and the true differences and is making a knowledgeable purchase, and is buying something they can afford and will enjoy using.
> 
> Neither side is "smarter" than the other. We all make our personal choices.
> ********************
> ...



Well said. 

The key point you made is *"I feel that there is no "wrong" way to buy as long as the consumer has been informed of the true costs and the true differences and is making a knowledgeable purchase"* 

If someone makes an informed choice to buy direct that is great. But most people have no idea that they can buy almost the exact same thing for 60% less.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*I Don't Think So.*




Latravel said:


> _"Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone decided buying resale was the only way to go. Marriott would stop building new resorts because there would be no direct buyers. Ease up on the arguments against buying direct. You really don't want everyone to buy resale and its not for everyone."_
> 
> Completely agree.  This is one of the best comments I have read on TUG in a long time.


Not exactly.  

What this really represents is a powerful illustration of why an all-new timeshare biz. model is so badly needed. 

The options today boil down to seriously overpaying by buying overpriced full-freight timeshares from timeshare companies for big bux on the 1 hand, or on the other hand  snorking up the resale bargains for pennies on the full-freight dollar (basically, taking advantage of those who got hoodwinked into paying the big bux for their timeshares via all those high-pressure, arm-twisting, guilt-tripping, psychologically manipulative, truth-stretching timeshare sales pitches). 

A sane biz. model would be patterned more after Wal*Mart for timeshares from timeshare companies & patterned more after CarMax for timeshare resales. 

How soon will something like that happen ?

Don't hold your breath.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 10, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> You cannot apply the same logic to the purchase of a home because you do not have the ability to trade the use of your home for a home at another location.
> If the first Marriott time share location had not sold well to people who were willing to purchase at Marriott prices then Marriott probably would not have continued to expand into other locations since they would not have seen the timeshare business as a lucrative operation.  Because you have a large number of people who are willing to buy direct from Marriott they continue to make a profit and thus continue to build at new locations.  So, those of you who purchased resale now have a huge network of Marriott properties to trade into because of people who purchased direct.



Who cares about trades!!!!! All you are talking about is trades!!!!! When people are on vacation and buy a tiemshare it is normally about the location where they are at the time which is where they buy. 

If all that you are interested in are trades why not just rent. Marriott expands when they sell out their units and there is still a demand for sales. Marriott could care less about trades.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

Powerguy said:


> Who cares about trades!!!!! All you are talking about is trades!!!!! When people are on vacation and buy a tiemshare it is normally about the location where they are at the time which is where they buy.
> 
> If all that you are interested in are trades why not just rent. Marriott expands when they sell out their units and there is still a demand for sales. Marriott could care less about trades.



Oh I disagree.  I'd guess that the trade options offered by MVCI during their sales pitches are a huge selling point, whether you're talking about the ability to trade through II for other MVCI properties or for points which can be used at Marriott-brand hotels.  Even though we love the locations where we've purchased, we wouldn't have bought if a trading option of some sort wasn't available.  We didn't buy to go to the same place all the time; we bought a vacation lifestyle.

Renting hotel rooms in lieu of purchasing timeshares might be economically sound, but renting 2- or 3BR MVCI units is definitely not.  Besides the fact that the prime weeks probably wouldn't be available for rent, the costs would far exceed even developer prices in only a few short years. 

I agree with everyone who says that an individual has to decide for him/herself if a direct- or resale-purchase is right, and that the only people who make mistakes in timeshare purchases are the uneducated people.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 10, 2009)

Powerguy,  Fine so you go where you purchased but everyone is not you which is exactly what is so often forgotten on this board.  I have owned for 14 years at MMC and have never been there since the day we signed our contract.  We like going to different places at different times of the year.  We like getting a week in the sun during the winter in Fl or the Carribean and a week in early Sept at the beach.  Like I keep saying  One size does not fit all.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 10, 2009)

kathyPet-
What percentage of owners do you fall under?????


----------



## IngridN (Apr 10, 2009)

Powerguy said:


> kathyPet-
> What percentage of owners do you fall under?????



I will add my voice to KathyPet's...Our intial purchase at Shadow Ridge was for the sole intent of exchanging.  The only reason we've been there once in many years of ownership was by afterthought...going to be in the area anyway and thought we'd check it out.  Have no interest in returning and use the unit every year to trade.

Ingrid


----------



## Bill4728 (Apr 10, 2009)

We just sign a contract to buy at Newport Coast -NCV.

We will likely trade our NCV week every year but still stay there each year for a week or two. HOW?  We like to travel in the off season and our lower priced TS seem to be able to get us into NCV during the off season. 

Hopefully our NCV will be able to trade for some peak time TS at other marriott resorts.

BUT of course, this has nothing to do with "should you buy from the developer?"


----------



## pwrshift (Apr 10, 2009)

Like most Marriott owners, I bought my first week at Manor Club early in their history .. it came with a 'world trip for two' incentive.  I gave the trip to my kids as I was more excited about owning a TS that gave me 6 free rounds of golf each week.  Points were the last thing on my mind -- until my kids came back from Aruba raving about the trip...a trip that I 'felt' cost me nothing.  Cool.

Got addicted.  Bought BeachPlace 2 weeks as I love Ft. Laud.  Then bought a pre-constr. Manor Club Sequel ... and one at Canyon Villas.  My last purchase was 2001 -- MSE and MCV earned me over 1 million points for less about $36,000 incl the 2 TS.  

In all I was swimming in points ... about 2 million by that time.  Somewhere through the process of buying 6 Marriott TS I realized I could trade 2 of them every year for about 220,000 points add to my points account and/or replenish what I had spent.  You'd have to spend about $22,000 a year in Marriott hotels to 'earn' 220k points!  So I gave up 2 weeks ($1600 or so) for the points and non use as it still left me with 4 weeks a year to use - more if you consider lockoff splits - and off I went to see the world in grand style, never again taking an economy seat anywhere!  

My points by purchasing direct returned far move than I paid for the 6 TS and they still are.  Never ever regretted working my plan this way -- but it may not be for everyone.  By the time I got my first Marriott my 3 kids were already out earning their own way in life and my holiday needs (family trips) changed -- now I could go to Paris, London, Rome, etc. in business class air and stay in first class hotels that made my beds and were right where every tourist wanted to be in those world class cities.  In actual fact, I'm at the stage of life it's nice to be in a full service classy hotel instead of having to cook and clean up after myself...want to eat in, just call room service!  

Brian


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

If there was a bulletin board at the resorts where owners and resellers could list weeks for sale so that owners could see what resale prices are before going into the developer's presentation, then they could compare the two and make an educated decision. If they knew that they were less than half price resale and still bought retail, that was their choice. However going into the sales presentation with no knowledge that there even is a resale market does not give the buyers a fair chance to make an informed decision. 

How many retail buyers would buy from Marriott if they knew that they could buy the same identical week that Marriott is trying to sell them for $10,000 or $20,000 less than Marriott is asking? Even after finding out that they don't get the points, how many would buy retail if they knew they could save 10's of thousands of dollars resale?  Marriott isn't selling points for $30,000 or $40,000, they are selling weeks. Points can be purchased by anyone who opens a Marriott account, stays in a Marriott hotel, or uses a marriott credit card. Marriott weeks on the other hand can only be used by owners, guests, or renters. Face it folks, you are buying Marriott weeks not Marriott points. Points can be devalued or discontinued at any time. You will own the week in perpetuity because that is what you are buying. If you want to stay in a Marriott hotel in Spain, look for the cheapest price you can find on travelocity or priceline and pay for the room with the $10,000 or more you save buying resale.

If I had purchased a week for $30,000 and was laying by the pool hearing people discussing their purchase of the same thing for $10,000 or $12,000, I would get sick to my stomach. No amount of points could equal the $18,000 to $20,000 more I paid for the week than the folks laying next to me paid for the same thing. I am not sure I could ever enjoy vacationing there after finding out how much more money i spent than I had to spend to be a platinum week owner. 

As I said before, would anyone here actually advise their children to pay full retail developer prices right now knowing that Marriott is not exercising ROFR and knowing that your kids could purchase the same thing for less than half the marriott price by buying resale?


----------



## James1975NY (Apr 10, 2009)

slawson928 said:


> I have been debating buying a developer week at Ocean Watch because I do use the points system and there isn't that huge of a difference between the current 25% sale and the resale prices.  Granted that will change after April 22nd.
> 
> Anyway this is an email I just got back from a sales rep.  I replied to her messsage to ask her how she calculated the lost of $15K in vacations.
> 
> ...



I think the statement about the Mercedes is a bit out of line. The statement should be more like....

"Buying a Marriott ownership on the resale market is like buying a Mercedes for the price of a Chevrolet. You just have to live without the Blue-Tooth feature"

In my opinion, we can all live without the Blue-Tooth feature. Assuming an Ocean Side, 2/2, Annual, Platinum season ownership, the asking price before the discount is $34.9k. Take 25% off of that and you are paying a little under $26.2k. On the secondary market you should expect to get the same ownership for about $14k or less. Even with Marriott's generous discount of about $8k, you can still save an additional $12k if you bought resale.

Another important questions is: are you financing? What are you actually paying on the $26.2k before it is all paid off?

The points structure is not a constant which is unappealing to me. You did see how the hotel categories had changed and require more points per night in different areas?


----------



## kjd (Apr 10, 2009)

*The nature of a timeshare*

This discussion is interesting because usually debating this topic goes nowhere.  At least there are some new ideas here like developing a new timeshare model.

I have bought direct and resale.  Both methods have advantages depending upon the individual situation.  While everyone's situation is different I offer these general observations for discussion:

1.  A timeshare is not an investment and cannot be equated as such.  It is silly to make a financial arguement out of something that has as its' end product; personal enjoyment and relationships with one's family.

2.  Timesharing is akin to other types of recreation such as motorhome travel, camping, golfing, boating etc.  Does anyone who buys a new boat or motorhome really think that there will not be any depreciation?  Houses were an exception until recently.  There will always be depreciation and there will always be a resale market for most goods.  It's not a bad thing.  The same people who criticize the direct buyer for not buying resale, will go out an buy a car that loses half its' value in two years and think nothing of it. 

3.  Timeshares are really a system and the system is only as good as the people who run it.  The Marriott brand is what attracts buyers.  Try selling  timeshares from other companies. Many of them sell for $1.00

4.  Timesharing is like a golf membership.  You have a license to play golf at a particular club.  It realy has no value until you sell.  The real estate value of all of the units of an average timeshare development will be less than its total value as a timeshare.  That is unless oil is discovered under the building.  Therefore, timesharing adds value for both new and resale units. 

5.  It's always best to buy a timeshare where you want to spend your vacation most of the time.  Trading should be secondary.  It's true that you can trade into many Marriott resorts but not always at the times that you want to be there.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 10, 2009)

Brian, you and my husband think exactly alike.  He buys direct from Marriott for the points and plays the point/trade game very successfully.  Because of his effort, we stay in first class hotels and fly business/first (even my 6 & 3 yr old) 90% of the time because of points.

Would I give that all up just to buy resale?  NO WAY!  

I'll leave that to others who really don't care about traveling to places except to their one timeshare year after year or to those who really don't care to travel in a particular manner.  Saving money in the short term may be more of a priority to some.

There are different circumstances for each family.  What I take extreme offense to is when people imply it is stupid.  Would you say that about people who shop in high end stores and only buy new cars?


----------



## Latravel (Apr 10, 2009)

I would love it if Marriott had a clause in their sales contract that required owners to sell the unit back to Marriott if they wanted to sell.  If the price was fair, I wouldn't mind.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

tombo said:


> If there was a bulletin board at the resorts where owners and resellers could list weeks for sale so that owners could see what resale prices are before going into the developer's presentation, then they could compare the two and make an educated decision. If they knew that they were less than half price resale and still bought retail, that was their choice. However going into the sales presentation with no knowledge that there even is a resale market does not give the buyers a fair chance to make an informed decision.
> 
> How many retail buyers would buy from Marriott if they knew that they could buy the same identical week that Marriott is trying to sell them for $10,000 or $20,000 less than Marriott is asking? Even after finding out that they don't get the points, how many would buy retail if they knew they could save 10's of thousands of dollars resale? Marriott isn't selling points for $30,000 or $40,000, they are selling weeks. Points can be purchased by anyone who opens a Marriott account, stays in a Marriott hotel, or uses a marriott credit card. Marriott weeks on the other hand can only be used by owners, guests, or renters. Face it folks, you are buying Marriott weeks not Marriott points. Points can be devalued or discontinued at any time. You will own the week in perpetuity because that is what you are buying. If you want to stay in a Marriott hotel in Spain, look for the cheapest price you can find on travelocity or priceline and pay for the room with the $10,000 or more you save buying resale.
> 
> ...



See, I don't think it's MVCI's responsibility to inform potential buyers about the resale market.  When you shop for groceries, or cars, or shoes, or anything at all, is there a bulletin board on the premises which informs you of the competitors' existence and prices?  Of course not.

Everything in your post comes under the heading of Buyer Beware.  It's been said over and over here that a timeshare purchaser needs to be an educated consumer.  But the onus is on the buyer to educate him/herself, and every buyer knows that a supplier is not going to provide information about the competitors.  If you're not finding out that you could have bought for less until you're already at the pool, the fault is yours.

As a seller, MVCI (or any other timeshare developer) needs only to inform a potential buyer about the product pricing and availability that it is offering, not what its competitors are.

When I've explained our experiences with MVCI to other people, I've included the fact that there is a resale market where substantial savings can be found if price is the deciding factor.  No one has bought, yet, but none of them say that they will limit their searches to the resale market.  There is some weight attached to dealing directly with Marriott as a solid company.


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> See, I don't think it's MVCI's responsibility to inform potential buyers about the resale market.  When you shop for groceries, or cars, or shoes, or anything at all, is there a bulletin board on the premises which informs you of the competitors' existence and prices?  Of course not. .



My point wasn't that Marriott should inform consumers that there is a resale market. My point is that if buyers knew that they could buy the same thing Marriott was trying to sell them for less than half the price, almost none would buy from Marriott. I would bet less than 10% would buy from Marriott given both options. Think about it. Sir you can buy a platinum week for $8,000 resale or you can buy a Platinum week for $30,000 from Marriott. Which sounds better to you? 

All of us here on TUG know about both options. It is not Marriott's responsibility to educate buyers about the resale market, but I do think it is our responsibility as informed timeshare owners to educate others.



SueDonJ said:


> Everything in your post comes under the heading of Buyer Beware.  It's been said over and over here that a timeshare purchaser needs to be an educated consumer.  But the onus is on the buyer to educate him/herself, and every buyer knows that a supplier is not going to provide information about the competitors.  If you're not finding out that you could have bought for less until you're already at the pool, the fault is yours..



 We should help the newbies know what the timeshare sellers will never tell them, and that is that it is much cheaper to buy the same thing resale. To say it is their fault for getting ripped off because they were not being better educated while we do nothing to educate them is like watching someone get robbed and blaming them for not knowing better than walking down that street. If you knew they were going to get robbed you should have warned them. If you know the developer is going to fleece them, you should warn them too. 





SueDonJ said:


> There is some weight attached to dealing directly with Marriott as a solid company.



I am still waiting for someone here to say that they would tell their own children to buy retail for $10,000 to $20,000 more than resale just to get points. I can't imagine a parent saying you can buy this for $8,000 resale, but I reccommend that you pay $30,000 and buy from Marriott so you can get points. If points were actually worth $22,000 you can believe that Marriott would be selling them for $44,000.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*Facts The Timeshare Sellers Don't Bother Explaining.*




kjd said:


> 1.  A timeshare is not an investment and cannot be equated as such.  It is silly to make a financial arguement out of something that has as its' end product; personal enjoyment and relationships with one's family.
> 
> 2.  Timesharing is akin to other types of recreation such as motorhome travel, camping, golfing, boating etc.  Does anyone who buys a new boat or motorhome really think that there will not be any depreciation?  Houses were an exception until recently.  There will always be depreciation and there will always be a resale market for most goods.  It's not a bad thing.  The same people who criticize the direct buyer for not buying resale, will go out an buy a car that loses half its' value in two years and think nothing of it.
> 
> ...


6.  There is no such thing as a new timeshare.  By the time the buyer shows up & checks in, other people will have already been staying in the new owner's unit.  That's _used-used-used_ any way you shake it, making it a tall order to expect an informed customer to pay new prices for an item that is no such thing by any objective definition. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## m61376 (Apr 10, 2009)

Latravel said:


> I would love it if Marriott had a clause in their sales contract that required owners to sell the unit back to Marriott if they wanted to sell.  If the price was fair, I wouldn't mind.



Why would they ever want to do that? That would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot; imagine the impact on sales if the sales contract contained a clause that informed the prospective purchaser that if he/she decided to sell next week their purchase would suddenly be worth 40% (or more) less.

And, Heidi, I think it is a little short sighted to imply that people who buy resale aren't interested in traveling to different places or in a "particular manner." Perhaps we'd prefer to enjoy annual use of those timeshare units we paid big $$'s upfront to use and go to just as nice places and stay in as nice accommodations, but not having to restrict ourselves necessarily to Marriott properties (there are equivalents and, yes, even nicer, places in some locales) and, instead of spending all that time trying to put together the reward trips, spend time finding equivalent accommodations at discounted pricing which we pay for largely from the savings. Think about this- if I save even $10,000 on a unit, I now have not only that 10K but let's say $500 a year in interest (current interest rates aside). After 10 years I'd have over 16K- $6000 that a direct purchaser doesn't have to spend, plus I still have my 10k. Let's say you trade every other year, which costs an average of $1104 for argument's sake ($1000 in MF's + trade fee). So, after 10 years, you have about 500,000 points, which cost you the additional $10,000 in purchase price and ~$11,500 in fees (trade in costs + lost investment income) = $21,500, plus have had 5 weeks of timeshare vacation time; you can use those accumulated points towards a 2 week trip (a bit shy now with current point devaluations; you can make up the difference with the 150-200,000 incentive points for purchase). The resale buyer, on the other hand, has enjoyed 10 years of annual use of his/her timeshare (or wonderful trades and/or, with locking off, possibly as many as 20 weeks of vacations), still has their initial $10,000, but it is now worth in excess of 16K in the bank. That savings could pay for a really nice European trip, or a couple of cruises, or...whatever...because the resale purchaser has unlimited possibilities of how to use those savings. The numbers multiply when purchasers save 15-20K by buying resale, which many of us have recently. Using your analogy of high end stores- there are those of us who humble ourselves to shop at outlets, online, etc. and buy the same high quality merchandise found at high end stores for a lot less. Who's to say who is the more savvy shopper here?

I do agree with the above post that, as nice as it may sound, it is neither Marriott's responsibility to educated prospective consumers about the resale market nor in their best interests. If you go into an electronics store to purchase a certain TV, for example, do you really expect the salesperson to tell you upfront the lowest price he has sold that TV for? While a shopper comparison shops and does their homework, many people simply enter the store and pay sticker price. I wouldn't expect a salesperson to tell a customer they can get it for lower. In the same vein, I wouldn't expect Marriott to customers they can potentially buy a timeshare for less money; moreover, they have a responsibility to their shareholders not to, because it would be bad for business.

I maintain the vast majority of purchasers are uneducated wrt timeshares, even though they may be highly intelligent professionals in their careers. Most purchases are made while people are in "vacation mode," and people are looking forward to a lifestyle. There is definitely an emotional pull at work, especially for that first purchase. People like Brian and Heidi are at one end of the spectrum (although I wouldn't necessarily categorize them together, since Brian has mentioned that he bought early pre-construction at a time when large point incentives were being offered and has stated in the past that he is not sure that buying direct makes sense at current offerings, while Heidi maintains that despite the current large price discrepancy and relatively paltry up front incentives that buying direct is the only way to go) and some of the more vocal resale advocates are at the other, I sincerely believe that most purchasers fall in the middle and many are purely impulse decisions.

I know I have several friends who bought exactly that way- on vacation, fell in love with the idea, were sold on the potential of trading for points if they wanted to go to Europe, etc., and didn't really give any thought to the economics. Some bought multiple units depending on the potential of Marriott renting the property for them and enjoyed that while it lasted. 

I think this thread is terrific, if only for the fact that a prospective purchaser, IF he/she takes the time to explore the market before buying (which I maintain most do not) can gain great insight into both sides of the argument just by reading through a few pages. I do think it is an injustice to classify either end of the spectrum as "stupid;" as they say, different strokes for different folks. 

Personally, I am a shopper and like to get the best value for my money. I like the concept of "free trips," but am astute to recognize that those fabulous trips are not really free at all. If I am plunking down thousands of dollars because I think a timeshare vacation week is worth it, I should use it. But that's me. Obviously, others feel differently. Some people love the convenience of shopping at Saks and others enjoy their bargains...to a large degree, neither camp would enjoy the other's purchases. I think the same can be said here.

Tombo- I read your thread with interest after I finished writing this. Maybe I am misjudging people, but I think that even with education many people would still buy directly. Marriott panders to a largely wealthier clientele (people who can afford their prices) and, let's face it, there are many people who sincerely believe if you pay more for something you get a better product. I have a very close friend, for example, who kinda shakes his head and sincerely believes that his full price unit is somehow better than mine. Just look at the posters here- how many of them, even though very aware of the resale market, still advocate buying direct. I'd venture to guess that instead of less than 10% you'd be looking at more of an even split, but that's just my assumption. And you just have to look here to see that there are people who would likely tell their children to pay the additional 10K+; if Heidi's kids were older, I would venture to guess she would, for example. I am sure she's not alone. But you are right about helping people know about the resale market, so they can make their own informed decisions.


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

kjd said:


> T The same people who criticize the direct buyer for not buying resale, will go out an buy a car that loses half its' value in two years and think nothing of it.
> 
> .



At least a new car does have some value over a used car. When you buy a new car you know that it has never been hot rodded, you know that the routine maintenance was performed as recommended, you know that it has never been smoked in, you know that there has never been a dog or cat in the vehicle, etc because you are the absolute sole owner. You know who drove it, when, and you can control whether the vehicle is driven on salt covered roads, stored in a garage, waxed regularly. You know if it has ever been under water. There is some value in being the first and only owner of a vehicle. That being said I usually buy used autos.

If you could buy a timeshare and never have anyone else stay in it but you and your family, a new timeshare would have some additional value over used. However since every week of the year a new family with kids, smokers,teenagers, etc check in, the new at a timeshare is never really new. There is no "new" advantage that comes with retail timeshare purchases, so buy resale.  All timeshares are used.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*No Such Thing As A New Timeshare Any Way You Shake It.*




tombo said:


> All timeshares are used.


I put it more emphatically than that -- i.e., by me all timeshares are _used-used-used_. 

However that may be, I know somebody who actually did stay in a new timeshare unit 1 time -- he & his family were the very 1st occupants in a spanking-new & never previously occupied timeshare unit in a newly completed timeshare condo building. 

As it happened, they were there on RCI exchange.  By the time any of the actual _owners_ of the unit showed up & checked in, the unit was _used-used-used_, just like all the others. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 10, 2009)

There is a huge difference between educating newbie's about the resale market and "forcing them to drink the Kool Aid"


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

tombo said:


> ... All of us here on TUG know about both options. It is not Marriott's responsibility to educate buyers about the resale market, but I do think it is our responsibility as informed timeshare owners to educate others.
> 
> 
> 
> We should help the newbies know what the timeshare sellers will never tell them, and that is that it is much cheaper to buy the same thing resale. To say it is their fault for getting ripped off because they were not being better educated while we do nothing to educate them is like watching someone get robbed and blaming them for not knowing better than walking down that street. If you knew they were going to get robbed you should have warned them. If you know the developer is going to fleece them, you should warn them too.



Nope, I just don't agree.  Making a purchase, paying actual money for something, isn't comparable to getting robbed even if the price paid is more than one trillion times the value of the object.  A buyer chooses to part with his money; a robbery victim is forced to hand his over for no return.

The person who is parting with his money by choice is solely responsible for determining the value of what he's purchasing, from the smallest candy bar to the largest mansion.  I don't feel any responsibility at all to educate potential timeshare purchasers about the market simply because I own one.  There isn't one bit of responsibility to potential buyers attached to my ownership.

Having said that, I do think that TUG and other sites like it do offer the information that you think all potential buyers should have.  They can do exactly what all of us did to gain our wealth of knowledge, which is a google search for "timeshare ownership."  It's not my problem or yours, though, if they don't search until after they purchase.   







tombo said:


> I am still waiting for someone here to say that they would tell their own children to buy retail for $10,000 to $20,000 more than resale just to get points. I can't imagine a parent saying you can buy this for $8,000 resale, but I reccommend that you pay $30,000 and buy from Marriott so you can get points. If points were actually worth $22,000 you can believe that Marriott would be selling them for $44,000.



My children aren't quite at the point in their lives where they are financially ready for timeshare ownership (21 and 22) so I don't recommend any type of purchase to them.  But they are aware of our experiences buying direct from Marriott despite knowledge of the resale market.  What they may choose to do in the future is their business; at least they will be informed.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 10, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> There is a huge difference between educating newbie's about the resale market and "forcing them to drink the Kool Aid"



You can't "force" anyone to do anything they don't want to and I would certainly hope no one would allow an anonymous poster to force them to do anything they didn't want to. That said, offering a stranger a drink of Kool-Aid is certainly the hospitable thing to do  !


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 10, 2009)

No of course you can't literally force them but you certainly can make them feel either guilty as h*** for "wasting" money or like a total idiot for even considering purchasing any other way but re-sale.  The hard sell is in full force here.  i think a lot of people have a prior history selling used cars.


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

m61376 said:


> You can't "force" anyone to do anything they don't want to and I would certainly hope no one would allow an anonymous poster to force them to do anything they didn't want to. That said, offering a stranger a drink of Kool-Aid is certainly the hospitable thing to do  !



Unless the person making the offer is Jim Jones.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*Showdown At Information Gap.*




tombo said:


> It is not Marriott's responsibility to educate buyers about the resale market,


If a timeshare company did educate the suckers customers about the resale timeshare market, that timeshare company would sell hardly any timeshares. 

The biz. plan of the timeshare companies depends on preserving the existing gross information gap between the timeshare sellers on the 1 hand & the suckers customers on the other hand. 

The only measure in place that even partly makes up for the information gap is the mandatory cooling off period (i.e., rescission period) provided for by state law.  And all that does is give the suckers customers a few days to smarten up & undo the self-inflicted damage of buying a full-freight timeshare for big bux. 

Even with the rescission period in place, how many suckers customers catch on in time to the fact that for thousands of dollars less they could have bought exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something better, on the resale market ?  

I'm guessing not many. 

Erase that gross information gap & the conventional timeshare biz. plan self-destructs.  Till then, the timeshare companies will keep on exploiting the gap via their high-pressure, arm-twisting, guilt-tripping, psychologically manipulative, truth-stretching timeshare sales presentations. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> No of course you can't literally force them but you certainly can make them feel either guilty as h*** for "wasting" money or like a total idiot for even considering purchasing any other way but re-sale.  The hard sell is in full force here.  i think a lot of people have a prior history selling used cars.



The hard sale is when you spend 2 to 3 hours with a timeshare salesmen, their managers, and then their managers trying to get you to buy TODAY.  This is a debate on whether there is any feasible reason to buy retail knowing that there is a resale market where you can buy the same thing for less than half the retail price. I bet you are correct that a lot of Marriott salesmen have a prior history of selling used cars.

I am simply amazed that there is even anything to debate when you can buy a Platinum week for $8000 at Marriott XYZ resort resale or you can buy an identical Platinum week for $30,000 retail from Marriott at Marriott's xyz resort and get some points. It states in writing that Marriott points can be devalued at any time (like they recently were) and it is stated in writing that they can be discontinued at any time. The only thing you are actually buying is the week, the points are on a if we want to continue basis. To base a decision to spend $10,000 to $20,000 more for no reason other than points which are not guaranteed is perplexing to me.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

m61376 said:


> ... I maintain the vast majority of purchasers are uneducated wrt timeshares, even though they may be highly intelligent professionals in their careers. Most purchases are made while people are in "vacation mode," and people are looking forward to a lifestyle. There is definitely an emotional pull at work, especially for that first purchase. People like Brian and Heidi are at one end of the spectrum (although I wouldn't necessarily categorize them together, since Brian has mentioned that he bought early pre-construction at a time when large point incentives were being offered and has stated in the past that he is not sure that buying direct makes sense at current offerings, while Heidi maintains that despite the current large price discrepancy and relatively paltry up front incentives that buying direct is the only way to go) and some of the more vocal resale advocates are at the other, I sincerely believe that most purchasers fall in the middle and many are purely impulse decisions. ...
> 
> I think this thread is terrific ...



I agree, m, this is a terrific thread and I enjoy the topic, and learn something new about it, every single time it comes up here.  For instance, who knew that Kathy's rendition of Kumbaya was so inspiring?  

You and I agree on some things related to MVCI purchases, disagree on others, and that's fine.  But it's not fine to bring something to the discussion that simply isn't true, which is what you've done with your statement about Heidi.  In one of the recent threads about this subject she did say that in this economic climate with the recent Marriott devaluation of points, she would not advocate buying direct.  See this thread.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

tombo said:


> ... To base a decision to spend $10,000 to $20,000 more for no reason other than points which are not guaranteed is perplexing to me.



Speaking of the other discussions that have taken place here about developer v. resale purchasing, it isn't always simply the points that are the deciding factor in buying direct.  It's my experience that there are intangible benefits with buying direct, and I have detailed those in other threads.  But along with those, the comfort factor of dealing with Marriott the company absent any middlemen was a comfort to me, and the threat of any possible future changes in reservation or trade policies connected to resale purchases did make me think.

Every time this subject comes up, honestly, I thank goodness that we lucked into the Marriott sales rep that we did.  She knows the product inside and out because her parents had been owners and she grew up using it, and she is still more than willing to give me advice about its use at any time.  We weren't subjected to a hard sell at all; in fact she was grateful that we had some knowledge because it made the whole process easier for all of us.  Nothing that she has ever said, either during the pitch or since then, goes against what we knew beforehand or I have learned here since.

I know that the experience isn't the same for everyone, and I understand that the sales pitch can sometimes (most times?) be stressful or misleading.  It wasn't that way for us, and maybe that also is a factor in my pro-developer-purchase mindset.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*So What If You Paid Full Freight?  Don't Let That Get Your Goat.*




KathyPet said:


> No of course you can't literally force them but you certainly can make them feel either guilty as h*** for "wasting" money or like a total idiot for even considering purchasing any other way but re-sale.


_Total idiot for paying full freight ?_ 

No way. 

_Taken advantage of by rapacious timeshare sellers ? _

That's about the size of it, unfortunately. 

_Feel guilty over wasting the money ?_

Not at all -- fool me once, shame on you.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> ... The only measure in place that even partly makes up for the information gap is the mandatory cooling off period (i.e., rescission period) provided for by state law.  And all that does is give the suckers customers a few days to smarten up & undo the self-inflicted damage of buying a full-freight timeshare for big bux. ...




In my opinion, the rescission period is the only measure that is necessary.  It serves to keep the developer honest and the buyer protected, providing that the buyer does his/her homework.  Nobody but the buyer is responsible for that.

And Alan, I like you, I like reading you, and I'm thankful that you share your life with us here.  But in my opinion, again, your constant use in this thread and others of "sucker" to relate to developer-purchasers is one of the most glaring insults connected to this topic.  I wish you wouldn't use it.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 10, 2009)

*Just Telling It The Way It Is - Do You Think The Timeshare Sellers Doubt 1 Bit ?*




SueDonJ said:


> I wish you wouldn't use it.


That's why it had a strike-out line drawn through it was crossed out (i.e., marked through).

Even so, I will try to mend my ways. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Whirl (Apr 10, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Oh dear!  Here we go again opening this can of worms for the millionith time




yet i read ( or at least skim it) everytime! Fascinating....


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

Whirl said:


> yet i read ( or at least skim it) everytime! Fascinating....



I'm only here trying to up my post count so that I can learn the secret handshake.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 10, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> That's why it was crossed out (i.e., marked through).
> 
> Even so, I will try to mend my ways.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Thank you, sincerely.


----------



## MOXJO7282 (Apr 10, 2009)

I agree that most potential buyers nowadays would buy resale if made fully aware, but those that would still buy direct, I think, would be higher than 10% because some do make the points system really work for them.

Also, some won't consider a resale because they want the peace of mind of buying direct. There is something to this because I've bought 5 of my 9 weeks via resale, and it is a hassle to deal with most of these brokers, especially the ones where you get the really low-ball deals. At least that has been my experience.

Those two types of buyes I think make up probably 20-30%.


----------



## tombo (Apr 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Speaking of the other discussions that have taken place here about developer v. resale purchasing, it isn't always simply the points that are the deciding factor in buying direct.  It's my experience that there are intangible benefits with buying direct, and I have detailed those in other threads.  But along with those, the comfort factor of dealing with Marriott the company absent any middlemen was a comfort to me, and the threat of any possible future changes in reservation or trade policies connected to resale purchases did make me think.
> 
> .



I do understand that buying from Marriott assures you that the purchase is legitimate. I have purchased about 25 timeshares resale and only had one bad experience. The bad experience came when I was new and wouldn't happen again because i know better now. The odds f getting ripped off diminish if you do a little research on the seller and if you call the resort to make sure that the week you are buying is what is advertised.

If you were to buy resale for $8000 and the worst thing that could happen happened and they stold all of your money and you didn't become owner of the week, you could still buy another $8000 resale week and have a total of $16,000 invested. If the developer was charging $24000 for the week you would still have saved $8000 buying resale after being ripped off for $8000 the first time. If the first sale goes through you would save $16,000. It would take a lot of comforting to make me feel good enough to spend $8000 to $16000 more to get a nice sales rep and the secure feeling that comes with a developer's retail purchase.


As far as the possible future changes with regards to resale owners reservations, everything everyone has stated is that if it happens current resale owners will be grandfathered. Future resale owners after the change won't fare so well, but exisitng resale buyers will have the same rights as retail buyers even if marriott does change their program. I am interested in other reasons besides points that you feel make developer purchases worthwhile.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

_"Heidi maintains that despite the current large price discrepancy and relatively paltry up front incentives that buying direct is the only way to go"_

m61376 -
This comment is incorrect.  If you read the first sentence of my first post in this thread, you will see otherwise.  Let me remind you: _"While I wouldn't purchase a timeshare right now from Marriott directly..."_ 

Tombo and AwayWeGo, I suspect you are mixing up a Marriott timeshare with other timeshares.  Marriott timeshare presentations are not high pressure.  They basically tell you they don't negotiate and if you can't afford it, there is no point to waste time.  We have been to other timeshare presentations where you feel like you can't get away.  This is not the case with Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> I do understand that buying from Marriott assures you that the purchase is legitimate. I have purchased about 25 timeshares resale and only had one bad experience. The bad experience came when I was new and wouldn't happen again because i know better now. The odds f getting ripped off diminish if you do a little research on the seller and if you call the resort to make sure that the week you are buying is what is advertised.
> 
> If you were to buy resale for $8000 and the worst thing that could happen happened and they stold all of your money and you didn't become owner of the week, you could still buy another $8000 resale week and have a total of $16,000 invested. If the developer was charging $24000 for the week you would still have saved $8000 buying resale after being ripped off for $8000 the first time. If the first sale goes through you would save $16,000. It would take a lot of comforting to make me feel good enough to spend $8000 to $16000 more to get a nice sales rep and the secure feeling that comes with a developer's retail purchase.



Um, I don't think my purchases are any more legitimate than yours, or that any purchase I might make on the resale market would be somehow illegitimate.  The ease of the transaction through MVCI does seem to matter to me more than to you, though.  I don't want the hassle of researching the unit, broker, owner or anything else related to a resale purchase.

Truthfully, I would rather pay MVCI and know exactly what I'm getting than take a chance on a resale broker stealing my $8,000.  Again with the purchase/robbery thing, eh?  It goes back to knowing what you are buying within the context of the market, and as long as I feel that I'm getting value for my money, I'm happy.

Everybody has a different idea of what constitutes value, don't they?  With me I don't see any value in purchasing a timeshare from any entity if you need to finance the purchase.  Paying long-term interest for a "luxury" doesn't make any sense to me, but I wouldn't presume that it's not an option for some.  Similarly, I don't expect someone to presume that my options are not valid for me.

We are sitting on a boatload of points from our developer purchases as well as our constant use of the Marriott Visa (with balance paid in full every month.)  We've turned in some points for FF miles but for the most part, those are sitting there waiting for us to decide on a dream trip someday.  And I don't foresee in the near future trading any of our weeks for points, but I do like having the option available.

The intangibles that I've mentioned before include our admittedly-short history of trading and unit placements.  We've been incredibly lucky with the trades that we've been able to make and the unit views in which we've been placed.  The front desk reps at Marriott's Waiohai and Barony Beach (prior to our owning there) made a point of telling us that we were being rewarded as valued customers.  I believe them because I have no reason not to, but I also know that it could be that we have just been lucky.  Time and future use will tell us.

As for our sales rep?  She is not just "nice."  She is a wealth of knowledge, she hasn't misrepresented any facet of the product/program, she is willing to answer questions related to our ongoing use (which should actually be directed elsewhere), she hasn't used scare tactics or any other form of a pressurized sell, and she knows that I will find out quickly through this site if she tries to put one over on us.  That's more than "nice."



tombo said:


> As far as the possible future changes with regards to resale owners reservations, everything everyone has stated is that if it happens current resale owners will be grandfathered. Future resale owners after the change won't fare so well, but exisitng resale buyers will have the same rights as retail buyers even if marriott does change their program. ...



MVCI hasn't made any statement at all about possible differences between developer- and resale-purchases with respect to any future program changes.  In fact, MVCI hasn't said definitively if there will even be changes.  (And I want to point out that no Marriott rep has mentioned such a thing to me, either.)  When the topic comes up here people have speculated that resale purchases will be grandfathered.  But none of us has any way of knowing, do we?  I simply don't want to take a chance whatever may happen.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

_"As far as the possible future changes with regards to resale owners reservations, everything everyone has stated is that if it happens current resale owners will be grandfathered... exisitng resale buyers will have the same rights as retail buyers even if marriott does change their program."_

But you don't care about points so it wouldn't matter to you if you have the same rights, correct?  Or do you want the perk without paying for it?


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think some of you must not live in the real world. People purchase things for more than they have to all the time. Everyone who does not use coupons in there newspaper when they shop for groceries is paying more than they have to. How many young people who have not been taught by their parents go to buy a new car without researching? How many people who let their credit go bad have to pay more in interest for their car or home? How many people really research insurance for their home or cars? How many people shop at Nordstrom's and can get the exact same thing TJ Max? Yes, you can, believe it or not I have seen it. 

In each of those situations, no company is talking about resale or another vendor lower prices. People will pay what they pay because they are either lazy or don't care or are not informed. If they don't research, it's because they are lazy or bought emotionally because they were caught by surprise. 

I had gone on several Marriott timeshare tours and had even stayed in one before buying. I did not know about resale at all. Would I buy direct again? Maybe. I still like the points system but I would want more of them to meet my satisfaction. I would probably drive a harder bargain to get more of what I want if I could. I may not want to wait too long for a Lakeshore Villa to become available. 

In any case, to pontificate on this site that everyone who buys direct from the developer needs to rethink it is a little off base. We need only look in the mirror and I am sure we can find ourselves buying things for more than what we can purchase them at some point. If everyone was looking for the best bargain for everything that was bought we would all be maxing out Costco, because everything there is sold in bulk so we should be stocking our cabinets to get the best deal instead of going to our local supermarket for anything.

*I want to add that I do not want my children to purchase any timeshare now or in the future. One of my goals was to pass it on to them if they want it. There will be no reason for them to even have to consider direct or resale because there will be enough for them to have without doing anything else except paying the maintenance fees. I may have them start paying those fees early so that they can see if that's something that they will want to even do.*


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 11, 2009)

I am going to try very hard (no promises of course) to make one final comment here and then fold my tent and steal silently away.  We bought our first Marriott directly in 1994.  By the time we bought our second and third in 2003 we were fully aware of TUG and the resale market and we still bought directly from Marriott in spite of the Kool Aid vendors.  Why?  Because we were purchasing a certain life style and that included the ability to trade for Marriott points to take wonderful vacations that did not involve timesharing.    For us this was not strictly a dollars and cents choice.  I get the feeling that the resell purchasers are focusing on the dollar figure only and treating their purchase as a investment that they or their heirs will someday recoup.  Well since the value of those resell units has probably fallen in the recent market downturn maybe they will and maybe they won't.  Maybe those of us who bought direct will recoup our investment and maybe we won't.    I will make this point.  in 1994 when we went to the sales presentation for MMC if all Marriott was offering was the ability to purchase a week of time sharing and the ability to trade that time share for other locations we would not have purchased.  We would have walked away because that proposition alone would not have been enough to entice us.  We know that we demand a lot of flexibility and choices in our vacation planning and having a time share that requires that we either use the week or trade it for another location every single year for years down the road would have been a real turn off for us.   It locks us into a certain type of vacation that we were not willing to commit to every year.  Yeah Yeah I know about renting but I don't want the hassle of trying to find a renter, placing ads, negotiating the contract, hoping they don't back out and all the rest of the headaches.  Several multiple week owners have posted that they are having a difficult time finding renters in this economic environment. So for all of you who are into the "religion of resale" that's fine and I hope that 10 or 15 years from now you still enjoy finding a use for your week ever year but that choice is not for everyone.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 11, 2009)

See I knew I wouldn't be able to steal quietly away.  Referring to those of us who bought direct as "suckers" as seen in a prior post on this thread even if it was "crossed out" (it could have been deleted) is extremely insulting and a perfect example of the "You must drink the Kool Aid" approach to advising potential purchasers on their options when they come here for advice.  Another display of the "my way is always the correct way" and I will insult and denigrate anyone who disagrees with me


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 11, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> See I knew I wouldn't be able to steal quietly away.  Referring to those of us who bought direct as "suckers" as seen in a prior post on this thread even if it was "crossed out" (it could have been deleted) is extremely insulting and a perfect example of the "You must drink the Kool Aid" approach to advising potential purchasers on their options when they come here for advice.  Another display of the "my way is always the correct way" and I will insult and denigrate anyone who disagrees with me



Who knows KathyPet, some of the resalers may have a bit of the "sour grapes" syndrome. They may have some deepseated feelings about not really having the option of trading. You and I know that there are some real advantages traveling to places that don't have timeshares. Sure you can buy 100,000 points but it still costs and that may not be enough points. The resalers may really be concerned about what Marriott is going to do in the future. The HOPE they will be grandfathered in but who really knows. 

I don't have any clue of what is going to happen, but the odds are in the favor of those who purchase direct from Marriott because whatever they decide and whenever they decide it, it will be to better benefit those who purchased from them. Resale will still be there but there may not be the same benefits. 
Time will tell the story. In the meantime, can't we all just get along.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> I do understand that buying from Marriott assures you that the purchase is legitimate. I have purchased about 25 timeshares resale and only had one bad experience. The bad experience came when I was new and wouldn't happen again because i know better now. The odds f getting ripped off diminish if you do a little research on the seller and if you call the resort to make sure that the week you are buying is what is advertised.
> 
> If you were to buy resale for $8000 and the worst thing that could happen happened and they stold all of your money and you didn't become owner of the week, you could still buy another $8000 resale week and have a total of $16,000 invested. If the developer was charging $24000 for the week you would still have saved $8000 buying resale after being ripped off for $8000 the first time. If the first sale goes through you would save $16,000. It would take a lot of comforting to make me feel good enough to spend $8000 to $16000 more to get a nice sales rep and the secure feeling that comes with a developer's retail purchase.
> 
> ...



When I bought two resales from owners directly I used the attorney that Marriott uses for their developer closing documents and had done all of their legal work for the resort. They were great. No hassles and they knew all the details of the resort and had direct contacts at MVC to make the transfer go quickly and efficiently.


----------



## stevens397 (Apr 11, 2009)

Brian-

I've read your story before and I love it!  I'm sure that considering what you paid (way back when) and what points were "worth", you had no problem at all justifying developer purchase.  

That said, considering what units go for now and the devaluation of points we have seen, I think you would have a much greater challenge making those numbers work as well today - maybe making them work at all.

My sense is that we are about the same age and with the same reduced family responsibilities.  I'm fortunate to be able to amass a very large number of points thru business spending on my Starwood AMEX.  To those addicted to timeshare acquisition, there are times when you can't use all that you have and points can come in handy.  Great value - maybe not.  But sometimes some value is better than none.



pwrshift said:


> Like most Marriott owners, I bought my first week at Manor Club early in their history .. it came with a 'world trip for two' incentive.  I gave the trip to my kids as I was more excited about owning a TS that gave me 6 free rounds of golf each week.  Points were the last thing on my mind -- until my kids came back from Aruba raving about the trip...a trip that I 'felt' cost me nothing.  Cool.
> 
> Got addicted.  Bought BeachPlace 2 weeks as I love Ft. Laud.  Then bought a pre-constr. Manor Club Sequel ... and one at Canyon Villas.  My last purchase was 2001 -- MSE and MCV earned me over 1 million points for less about $36,000 incl the 2 TS.
> 
> ...


----------



## ondeadlin (Apr 11, 2009)

timeos2 said:


> The ability of human nature to come up with justification for expenditures is virtually unlimited.  It is almost equaled by the desire to have others pay the same or more and to agree with the decision(s).



Exactly, John, exactly.

The bigger the gap becomes between resale prices and developer prices, the more vociferous those who got suckered by the developer become in trying to talk others into getting suckered.

It would be amusing if there weren't the aspect of people getting talked into paying thousands more than they have to for the same product.

The best part is that some of the most vocal and strident defenders of the developer model almost always eventually back down and admit, well, no ... I can't justifying buying developer _now_ ... (and you guys know who you are).

Oh, and you know what would happen if no one bought developer? Marriott would readjust the model to a more honest one.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 11, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> I agree, m, this is a terrific thread and I enjoy the topic, and learn something new about it, every single time it comes up here.  For instance, who knew that Kathy's rendition of Kumbaya was so inspiring?
> 
> You and I agree on some things related to MVCI purchases, disagree on others, and that's fine.  But it's not fine to bring something to the discussion that simply isn't true, which is what you've done with your statement about Heidi.  In one of the recent threads about this subject she did say that in this economic climate with the recent Marriott devaluation of points, she would not advocate buying direct.  See this thread.



My intent wasn't to be disparaging- but her post in #54 above indicates otherwise ("Would I give that all up just to buy resale? NO WAY!"); she seems quite firm that she would not buy resale (which of course is okay if that works best for her).

Of course, after reading all these subsequent posts I am admittedly not quite as sure where Heidi stands today, although I'd venture to guess that she would still buy direct even though the landscape has certainly changed some 15 years after her first purchase. 

My point wasn't to ridicule her at any extent (or anyone else) just to underline that there are those people who would probably continue to advocate buying direct regardless of how good a buy they could get resale. And that's ok- if they find enough value in the points, if they enjoy trading their weeks in for points and feel it is worth it, and/or if they simply find comfort /security in buying direct- who's to say they're wrong. I may consider it a mistake but I'd have to be quite arrogant to say they were stupid, because, as long as they are not getting in over their heads financially (and, yes, I'd say buying any timeshare that you can't afford and getting into hoc over is a stupid move), it's great if it works for them. And I can see the point of not wanting to bother renting weeks and the appeal of more vacation versatility. The flip side to that coin is simply not to buy more timeshare weeks than you'd foresee yourself and/or family wanting to utilize and saving the extra money, investing it, and using it for future non-timeshare vacations.


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 11, 2009)

*Don't mix perks and rights. One can change - one can't*



SueDonJ said:


> MVCI hasn't made any statement at all about possible differences between developer- and resale-purchases with respect to any future program changes.  In fact, MVCI hasn't said definitively if there will even be changes.  (And I want to point out that no Marriott rep has mentioned such a thing to me, either.)  When the topic comes up here people have speculated that resale purchases will be grandfathered.  But none of us has any way of knowing, do we?  I simply don't want to take a chance whatever may happen.



You and every other owner had better hope they don't make any statement that somehow resale buyers will have base ownership rights changed. If they ever did the value of every ownership - not just those already transferred resale - would be instantly devalued.  As it is in Wyndham and every other timeshare resort /system what you pay for  - the deeded or RTU rights as spelled out in the 400+ pages of disclosure few read - cannot be changed. That is a right to XX points or a week of use in XX season or Unit #XX - that is the item of value you paid for. If they attempt to change that because your ownership wasn't blessed by a high priced developer transfer then they are ripe for an extremely successful lawsuit that may shut the door on the whole company.  Some things cannot be changed - if it could Wastegate or Wyndham or many others who skate on the edge of the rules would have done it long ago.  The fact remains that things like options for points or early check in or "free" paper can be perks added or removed on the whim of the operator. Paying big dollars for those may turn out to be a big mistake as they are not guaranteed and have been reduced (never increased) in vlaue in the past. The base ownership rights can NEVER be altered. That is your right to use, reserve and transfer (except as constricted by ROFR which is another hot button topic) that are guaranteed and how you obtained those rights - resale or retail - make zero difference. 

Pay ONLY for that which is guaranteed as only that has actual value. Since the base rights are exactly the same resale or retail the argument that a 50%+ premium is "worth it" rings very hollow long term. Those perks can be changed and cannot be transferred. Plus Marriott is in itto make money NOT benefit buyers. They aren't giving away $15,000 in benefits for $8000. So how much value can they really hold? The perks may be a nice option and if you understand the high cost of that option and don't mind then enjoy. But advising anyone to buy based on those changeable features is a big mistake.  They will never get equal value out and if the buyers understand that and want it anyway then they have made an informed decision to spend extra money to get a potential benefit they think they will enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. But to tell someone they should spend tens of thousands more on the chance that they will get a small perk or two is very misleading and exactly what the sales weasels get paid BIG bucks to do. We shouldn't aid in that deception but point out the pitfalls and let the informed buyer decide what they want to do.  

Bottom line don't pay for changeable "benefits" you cannot transfer or be guaranteed to receive unless you have money to burn.  Pay only for what you get as absolute use value to be a safe as possible in timeshare purchase. 99% of the time that means buy resale for true value for the purchase dollar.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Exactly, John, exactly.
> 
> The bigger the gap becomes between resale prices and developer prices, the more vociferous those who got suckered by the developer become in trying to talk others into getting suckered.
> 
> ...



[sigh]

Again with the "sucker" insult, as though all of us who have bought developer-direct despite knowledge of the resale market have been somehow hoodwinked by the developer into leaving our sense and sensibility behind.  This despite the fact that some of have stated clearly that this is simply not the case.

You've stated your case in terms of the very real cost savings being your number one priority, and that works for you.  Some of us have a different priority, be it point value or customer loyalty or product availability or whatever else you deem insignificant, and that works for us.

Psychoanalysts could have a field day here, rooting out the reasons why _some_ resale proponents must always resort to a form of insult when defending their stance against developer purchases.  Is it necessary to combat feelings of inferiority?  Who knows.  Me, I'll just continue to consider it damn rude.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

timeos2 said:


> You and every other owner had better hope they don't make any statement that somehow resale buyers will have base ownership rights changed. If they ever did the value of every ownership - not just those already transferred resale - would be instantly devalued. ... 99% of the time that means buy resale for true value for the purchase dollar.



Okay, well, first, every ownership IS instantly devalued.  That's the nature of timeshares!  I simply don't see them as financial investments, therefore I do not expect them to either hold or increase the dollar value that anyone pays for them.  To me, the "true value for the purchase dollar" lies in the vacation experience. 

Second, I do not expect that changes can be made within any timesharing program with respect to the "base ownership rights" such as unit designations, seasonal occupancy or point trade value.  I have no delusions that MVCI can unilaterally change deeded rights.

Actually, I have no delusions that MVCI will make ANY changes to their program but I do believe that it is possible for them to reward their loyal customers in ways not related to deeded rights, and I have simply hedged my bets so that if they do, my ownership won't be marginalized.

The 12/13-month reservation rule, for instance, could be amended to conform to the Disney model, where resale purchasers could be equal to those DVC with non-home resort status.  Or, within unit designations, developer purchasers could have a higher priority in the pecking order.  Marriott's computers already make the distinction by placing an "R" beside a resale-purchase name, any such changes could be implemented simply at the check-in desk.  Or, MVCI could implement a sliding fee scale for all transactions.  Those are the types of things that I'm talking about.

But don't mistake that for me wishing and hoping that MVCI will make changes yesterday to benefit me and all the developer-purchasers - I knew exactly what I was getting and have no regrets.  The program works for me as is.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

m61376 said:


> My intent wasn't to be disparaging- but her post in #54 above indicates otherwise ("Would I give that all up just to buy resale? NO WAY!"); she seems quite firm that she would not buy resale (which of course is okay if that works best for her).
> 
> Of course, after reading all these subsequent posts I am admittedly not quite as sure where Heidi stands today, although I'd venture to guess that she would still buy direct even though the landscape has certainly changed some 15 years after her first purchase.
> 
> My point wasn't to ridicule her at any extent (or anyone else) just to underline that there are those people who would probably continue to advocate buying direct regardless of how good a buy they could get resale. And that's ok- if they find enough value in the points, if they enjoy trading their weeks in for points and feel it is worth it, and/or if they simply find comfort /security in buying direct- who's to say they're wrong. I may consider it a mistake but I'd have to be quite arrogant to say they were stupid, because, as long as they are not getting in over their heads financially (and, yes, I'd say buying any timeshare that you can't afford and getting into hoc over is a stupid move), it's great if it works for them. And I can see the point of not wanting to bother renting weeks and the appeal of more vacation versatility. The flip side to that coin is simply not to buy more timeshare weeks than you'd foresee yourself and/or family wanting to utilize and saving the extra money, investing it, and using it for future non-timeshare vacations.



Again, m, there's a whole lot here with which you and I agree.  Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 11, 2009)

I just don't see Marriott making changes to the program that would seriously impacat the current options/benefits that resale purchasers have for one major reason.  Right now if you need or want to sell your unit and the resort you own in is not sold out Marriott will not accept your unit for resale through their program.  You can sell it on your own but then cannot offer the points option but that is the only difference between selling through Marriott or own your own.  Now if Marriott were to make further changes to the program to limit substantially the options available to resale purchasers their direct buy owners in resorts that were not sold out would find it virtually impossible to sell their units on the open market at any price.  As it stands right now a direct purchaser who bought say less than 5 years ago at a resort still in original sales by Marriott is already going to take a huge financial hit on their unit if they try to sell it on the open market.  To further reduce benefits to resale purchasers would make it virtually impossible for original owners to unload their units at any price on the open market and thus could cause these owners to simply default on their purchases and Marriott would then have to foreclose and take the units back and add them back to their inventory to try to move them.  I just don't see them wanting to do that.  Any one else agree with my reasoning??


----------



## m61376 (Apr 11, 2009)

Let's play nice...we can present our points of view, disagree and still be friends here.

When I was first deciding which way to purchase I guess close to three years ago there were similar discussions and I found them invaluable. I appreciated that both camps were vocal in their stances, because it enabled me to become an informed consumer. I think the only "suckers" (and I hesitate to use that term) are the ones who have gotten swept up in the moment and purchased direct based on lies told them by unscrupulous salespeople (for example, some of those Mexican purchase threads are heartbreaking). Whether or not buyers find this site before or after a purchase, if they've made a decision to buy and can afford the purchase and will utilize whatever they have bought, regardless of whether or not we would make the same choice, we should all accept that choice as being good for that person.

What is great about this discussion (aside from it being an excuse to waste an hour or two  ) is that it helps educate a newcomer who might not know what is best for THEM- not for you, not for me, but for their families. There are a lot of dynamics here- ease/convenience of purchase, fear of the unknown/security, disdain for overpaying for the same product (and, usage of the timeshare itself is the same), potential loss of benefits (and there is a question of whether trading for points is, in fact, financially a benefit), etc., that come into play aside from assuming posters are merely trying to justify their own decisions. I think the happiest campers here are those who can honestly say "I bought direct and, despite the extra costs, I feel I am getting great value out of trading for points and enjoying my timeshare when not trading" or "I am really glad I saved thousands of dollars up front, have invested those savings and can use them to take some non-timeshare fabulous trips (or help pay cor college, or...) and am using and enjoying each year of my timeshare ownership." It is the ones that never had privy to this discussion and discover it later and regret their purchase that I feel badly for.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 11, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> I just don't see Marriott making changes to the program that would seriously impacat the current options/benefits that resale purchasers have for one major reason.  Right now if you need or want to sell your unit and the resort you own in is not sold out Marriott will not accept your unit for resale through their program.  You can sell it on your own but then cannot offer the points option but that is the only difference between selling through Marriott or own your own.  Now if Marriott were to make further changes to the program to limit substantially the options available to resale purchasers their direct buy owners in resorts that were not sold out would find it virtually impossible to sell their units on the open market at any price.  As it stands right now a direct purchaser who bought say less than 5 years ago at a resort still in original sales by Marriott is already going to take a huge financial hit on their unit if they try to sell it on the open market.  To further reduce benefits to resale purchasers would make it virtually impossible for original owners to unload their units at any price on the open market and thus could cause these owners to simply default on their purchases and Marriott would then have to foreclose and take the units back and add them back to their inventory to try to move them.  I just don't see them wanting to do that.  Any one else agree with my reasoning??


Totally (see- we can agree  ). Seriously, though, I would take it one step further- although if they changed the rules for future resales they would at least not alienate a whole segment of current owners (and potential direct purchasers for new resorts) I think they would be negatively impacting future sales, since any new purchasers potentially can be sellers down the road. Lifestyles change, people move, affordability issues arise, etc.; no one can say with certainty that they won't want to sell at some point in the future. I am willing to accept that my purchase will lose value; like a car which is driven and devaluates, hopefully a timeshare is used and enjoyed so its devaluation is not a "loss" per se. I think it would negatively impact sales up front, if Marriott was essentially telling buyers that they would have a much less valuable product to sell.

That's why I think that not only is grandfathering current resale owners essential if/when Marriott develops an internal trading system, but that not making changes to resale value is in everyone's best interests. Just look at Starwood for an example- the resale value of voluntary resorts has plummeted, while mandatory resorts retain much more value (the former not retaining the internal trading rights while the latter does). I think that people are willing to accept some devaluation for years of enjoyment, but the concept of the value plummeting is harder to swallow.


----------



## tombo (Apr 11, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"As far as the possible future changes with regards to resale owners reservations, everything everyone has stated is that if it happens current resale owners will be grandfathered... exisitng resale buyers will have the same rights as retail buyers even if marriott does change their program."_
> 
> But you don't care about points so it wouldn't matter to you if you have the same rights, correct?  Or do you want the perk without paying for it?



Points are a Marriott sales gimmick. Sure right now they will get you some nice trips, but since the points have been devalued, your points won't go nearly as far as before. People who bought retail in the past got some great trips courtesy of points. Current retail buyers trips will not be so good. After the next inevitable devaluation the points argument will carry even less weight.

The devaluation of points by Marriott while raisng MF's double digit each year shows that they don't really honor points. Sure the price of rooms have gone up, but MF's have gone up higher. If a week in a motel room in Spain cost $1750 5 years ago and it costs $2500 a week now the increase is less than 10% a year. If your MF's have averaged increasing 10% a year, then it should take less points to stay a week in that motel room in Spain than it used to because your MF's and the rate Marriott charges for accomodations in timeshare rentals have increased more than the room rates. I don't care about points because they can be devalued at any time (and recently were) and because at Marriottt's whim they could be discontinued at any time. 

Before you say that Marriott would never discontinue their points program, why would they put it in the contract if it was something that they would never do? Why don't they put in the contract that they can quit honoring your Platinum week or in the future give you less than 7 days a week? They don't have that clause in there because you are buying the week, the points are a sales gimmick that they will jettison if it gets too expensive. Points aren't a right, they are available at Marriott's discretion. Use of a platinum week you purchased is a right. I do want the same rights purchasing resale that a retail buyer gets, but to save $8000 to $30,000 buying resale I will be glad to let Marriott keep their Monopoly points.


----------



## slawson928 (Apr 11, 2009)

Boy, what I tread I started.  Yikes.  I joined TUG a year ago when I had an interest in purchasing another week.  Please indulge me so I can tell you why and how I got here.  I may not be the typical owner but I use it to fit my life.  

This thread started with my post from a developer sales person about a week at Ocean Watch.  To be fair to her, I didn't post my email to her telling her that I was considering resale.  We had talked on the phone and exchanged about 4 or 5 messages before I got the 'Mercedes' response.  While I was and am not happy about her message that still has not swayed me for wanting Ocean Watch.  Maybe she was getting frustrated that I didn't buy after the first few emails.  I would love to get a hold of the sales rep that Susan and Heidi use as I would rather deal with them.

Since my original post I have put and offer in on a resale  EOY at Horizons (Harbour Lake) in Orlando!   Yeah for me, right?  That is one for the resale team.  It was just that cheap and we love that property.  However, I am still interested in Ocean Watch week.   With the 25% discount the prices between the developer week and resale are closer together.  Most people always use examples at the extremes.  I have seen post talking about 16K-30K differences in pricing.  Currently I believe that the difference between for the week I want is about 8-10K.  Gasp!  

Why would I even consider a developer week?

Long ago, in a state far, far away....  Actually that part is pretty true.   I got married about 11 years ago and spent my honeymoon in HI on Marriott points.  I traveled for a living at that time and had accumulated enough points for 10 days on two islands with first class round trip airfare.  Needless to say, never take your bride on a first trip like this because every other trip won't compare.  We attended a sales presentation on Maui and loved the idea but being newlyweds didn't have the funds.  We came home with a dream in our hearts.  We found a family friend that purchased retail and used it for points program but, his property like most only trades every other year for points.  

We found a resale in Orlando and bought it. That is another one for the resale team!  Well, not quite.  The resale was through Marriott.  Why?  Well, we just came back from HI on points and we wanted that feature.  The seller gave us 3k back from the sale which paid for maintenance fees for several years and also a trip to St. Thomas.   The first few years we traded the property for points because without kids I really didn't need to visit Mickey Mouse every year.  Sure, we could have traded it but we didn't it.  

Now, I have two kids and we have gone to Orlando 4 out of the last 6 years.  We are going back in May for 11 days.  Four will be at the Marriott at Sand Key using points and 7 will be a the Horizons on a trade from our Royal Palms week.  While I have never stayed a Royal Palms, Horizons just seems to have more the the kids. A pirate ship in the pool is all the kids needed to see to want to go there.  See we combine the use of our TS with points to make it the vacation that we want.  

Growing up with 5 brothers, my parents didn't have money to fly us anywhere.  We drove to FL and SC for vacations.  Usually we went to SC every year with one or two trips to see the 'mouse'.  My parents finally purchased a 1 bedroom resale non-Marriott in SC about 12 years ago.   My father passed not long after that purchase.  I think he stayed there twice.  

So vacations with family are something I cherish but over the years I have learned that I can't always go in vacation.  Being laid off and child birth have been a just a few factors.  So now I am looking to increase my TS holdings.  Because I want to have one for each of my kids to pass along to them but also because I want to be able to go on vacation with my brothers and their families and of course my mother.   The extended family now numbers 20.  My family is split between FL and MD so SC is pretty much a doable drive from either state.  But mom's 1 bd room won't hold all of use or really any of us that have kids which is why we are looking at Ocean Watch.

I didn't mention the story about the first trade we did with II which was awful.  We didn't know it at the time when we booked it but God decided that a hurricane would visit that region the weekend we were suppose to travel.  We tried to cancel or whatever the week before but the II office had already closed.  When we did get a hold of them they said it was too late.  They finally gave us a week to use but that was a child birth year so it was wasted.    So I have had great experiences with trading for points and not so great ones exchanging weeks.  

So is the hassle worth with 8-10K.  That is our debate. And I a leaning toward yes the developer week is worth it.  Because I don't sell my TS.  I plan on holding them and passing them to my kids.  And while I hope they become savvy TS owners, I want to give them the option of points.  Yes, the point system can change at any time.  But hey, they changed Coke and then brought it back. The point system is too ingrained into Marriott and their TS system.  I don't see it going away.  

Do I see value in resale, Yes!  Do I see why people still by developer weeks, yes?   I think you can have the best of both worlds.  Those that buy resale, good for you, enjoy your purchase. Those who buy retail, good for you, enjoy your purchase.  Maybe someone has more means that others and they don't mind paying more.  It is really how you feel at the end of the day.  If you are comfortable with your purchase, great.    

We should encourage folks to consider resale and maybe canceling their purchase contracts once they are informed.  Yelling at them 'RESCIND!' I don't think does anything but make them feel bad about the purchase.   A comment like 'Hey check out the resale market...here are some examples of recent transactions' is more helpful.  

However, I have sat through several high pressure sales pitches so I know that side too.  There is good and bad in both transactions but I didn't purchase my timeshare (hopefully 'timeshares') as an investment.  I bought them to create timeless memories with my family.  At their age, my kids don't know the cost of anything but they do know what a vacation is and they look forward to them.


----------



## tombo (Apr 11, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Um, I don't think my purchases are any more legitimate than yours, or that any purchase I might make on the resale market would be somehow illegitimate.  The ease of the transaction through MVCI does seem to matter to me more than to you, though.  I don't want the hassle of researching the unit, broker, owner or anything else related to a resale purchase.
> 
> Truthfully, I would rather pay MVCI and know exactly what I'm getting than take a chance on a resale broker stealing my $8,000.  Again with the purchase/robbery thing, eh?  It goes back to knowing what you are buying within the context of the market, and as long as I feel that I'm getting value for my money, I'm happy.
> 
> Everybody has a different idea of what constitutes value, don't they?  With me I don't see any value in purchasing a timeshare from any entity if you need to finance the purchase.  Paying long-term interest for a "luxury" doesn't make any sense to me, but I wouldn't presume that it's not an option for some.  Similarly, I don't expect someone to presume that my options are not valid for me.



I meant legitimate in the sense that you know Marriott is selling you a week as opposed to buying from a reseller where there is potential for misrepresentation of what you are buying. Marriott is a 100% safe purchase. Resale does have some risk involved.

Your money must come a lot easier than mine does. You know that you can save $8,000 to $20,000 (after tax take home money) or even more by buying resale, but you decide that it isn't worth it because of the hassle associated with researching the week/broker etc. That is absolutelly amazing to me. Many people don't bring home $20,000 after working a whole year. To spend a couple of hours to save that kind of money is a no brainer. You have got to be wealthy.

I agree on the financing. Timeshares are expensive vacation purchases which are not necessities. Anyone who finances vacation purchases is making a very bad move. Pay cash or forget it.

Back to the resale deal. I will make your next Marriott purchase very easy for you. I will be glad to take care of all the hassle and do all of the research on your next resale purchase. All I ask is one half of the money I saved you over a retail purchase. I will gladly do a lot of research and spend lot of time to make one half of $8,000 to $20,000. You will save $4000 to $20,000 and all you will have to do is sign a few papers that will be e-mailed of snail mailed to you. Just let me know where you want to own and I will be on it partner.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 11, 2009)

*Just Reading The Tea Leaves Here, Not Claiming Ultimate Knowledge Of Truth.*




SueDonJ said:


> Again with the "sucker" insult, as though all of us who have bought developer-direct despite knowledge of the resale market have been somehow hoodwinked by the developer into leaving our sense and sensibility behind.


I could be wrong (wouldn't be the 1st time), but I think use of that word is intended to describe how the timeshare companies & their staffs of timeshares sellers view the people to whom they sell the full-freight timeshares for big bux, & is not intended to disparage or insult or say anything bad about any of the people here or elsewhere from whom the full-freight timeshare companies actually absorb the big bux.  

I don't even speculate why it is that the word elicits such protests.  Shux, I thought bad-mouthing ROFR was the main button-pusher around here, not terms characterizing how timeshare sellers regard timeshare customers. 

Who knew ? 

However that may be, now that we _do_ know, I am mending my ways by staying away from that particular perceived insult.  Not only that, I may even dial down ROFR *=* ROFL slightly.  (Don't hold me to that -- yet. I'm still mulling it over.) 

Around here, we never deliberately insult people, even when poking fun -- _specially_ when poking fun.  Our code of conduct is patterned on the motto of the Gridiron Club of Washington DC, whose sole reason for being is to poke fun at politicians -- _The Gridiron May Singe But Never Burn._ 

When something not intended that way is nevertheless taken as an insult, then we stop & change gears -- to a point.  That is, if somebody later on protests that (say) _Buy Timeshares Resale & Save Thousands_ is insulting to all those full-freight timeshare owners out there, then I'll be calling _baloney_ on that.  I mean, come on.  

Ideally, TUG-BBS civility will continue operating as a 2-way street.  I might say something like, "Gee, you know, those timeshsare sellers treat their full-freight customers like they think people are suckers -- no offense intended."  And the response from the person on the other end of the conversation would be something like, "None taken."  In any case, I plan on doing my part for TUG-BBS civility, within reasonable limits. 

Is this a great country or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## m61376 (Apr 11, 2009)

Slawson- what a great post! Your analysis is right on- you've read, analyzed and are looking at what is best for YOU. Congrats- because whatever you decide, you are likely to be happy with!

That said, the only thing I would possibly disagree with is the issue of telling newbies to rescind. Yes, there are some who do it perhaps too adamantly, but keep in mind the option to rescind is time-limited and the option to buy isn't. I, too, have advised people to rescind immediately without a second thought and admonished them to then take the time to read and decide what is best for them. I'd hate to be the retail buyer who discovers resale after the fact and regrets their purchase. A retail buyer who has had the chance to educate themselves and make an informed decision is another matter all together. I might prefer to save 10-20K, but I am a bargain hunter by nature; I like to buy high quality at lowest prices, and admittedly part of the fun is also in the hunt. I guess my bent on buying resale is a natural extension of that. But what works for me may not for you, and there is definitely something to be said for ease of purchase and maintaining options of use. 

However you make the purchase, Ocean Watch sounds like a natural fit. Just to throw a wrench in your thinking- or perhaps give you some food for thought- since you have a large family and mentioned that you'd like to have it as a home base for potentially 20 people, have you considered that you could buy 2 resale units almost for the price of one retail and be able to really accommodate your siblings and their families? You could book contiguous weeks at 13 months and have first crack at choosing your vacation time too. That may be something that you want- or may not want- to consider.


----------



## capjak (Apr 11, 2009)

slawson928 said:


> Since my original post I have put and offer in on a resale  EOY at Horizons (Harbour Lake) in Orlando!   Yeah for me, right?  That is one for the resale team.  It was just that cheap and we love that property.  However, I am still interested in Ocean Watch week.   With the 25% discount the prices between the developer week and resale are closer together.  Most people always use examples at the extremes.  I have seen post talking about 16K-30K differences in pricing.  Currently I believe that the difference between for the week I want is about 8-10K.  Gasp!



If you do purchase from the developer it would be interesting to see if you could get MVIC to "requalify" your recent/past resale purchases to allow it to be traded for points as part of the deal (starwood does this and I believe it would help Marriott sales as well).  Just a thought as I have read where this has occurred in the past.

I think that change would help Marriott sales and give us a whole new topic to debate.


----------



## ondeadlin (Apr 11, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> I could be wrong (wouldn't be the 1st time), but I think use of that word is intended to describe how the timeshare companies & their staffs of timeshares sellers view the people to whom they sell the full-freight timeshares for big bux, & is not intended to disparage or insult or say anything bad about any of the people here or elsewhere from whom the full-freight timeshare companies actually absorb the big bux.



Correct, Alan. It was actually very carefully phrased in reference to the practice, not any individuals.

But if this thread, and those like it, are proof of anything, it's that a small hardcore group of folks dedicated to defending developer purchase only see what they want to see.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 11, 2009)

Oh Give Me a Break!  There is absolutely no way that anyone reading this phrase "The bigger the gap becomes between resale prices and developer prices, the more vociferous those who got suckered by the developer become in trying to talk others into getting suckered." could in anyway be intended as other than a slam and insult to those who purchased direct.  You are specifically saying that those who are suckered (direct purchasers) are trying to drag others into also being suckered.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

_"My intent wasn't to be disparaging... "_
But you were.  I got a few messages from people expressing support.

_"after reading all these subsequent posts I am admittedly not quite as sure where Heidi stands today..."  _

This is very surprising but I will clarify.  I personally would not buy a unit on the resale market for various reason I have explained many times.  Is this the right approach for everyone? NO.  Each person should purchase what fits with their family.  To say that everyone should only buy resale is WRONG.  To say that anyone who knowingly bought from the developer is a sucker, stupid, ignorant, uniformed, etc is very arrogant.   

I am noticing that some of the comments made by people who support resales are bordering on insulting.  You've got to show some control otherwise people are going to start to think there is some envy involved!


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

_"The bigger the gap becomes between resale prices and developer prices, the more vociferous those who got suckered by the developer become in trying to talk others into getting suckered."_

Oh my!  Did I read that right?  Now this tread is becoming silly but it did make me laugh!


----------



## pwrshift (Apr 11, 2009)

Here's a better bet right now than buying resale or direct.  When MAR stock hit a low couple of months back I bought back in around $12 and it's already up to $19.  Not as nice an increase as my RIM stock (which I bought when Obama told the world he wanted to keep his Blackberry) but these days an increase is an increase.  This is perhaps not the time to by any TS ... but it might be the right time to carefully buy equities.

Brian


----------



## Zac495 (Apr 11, 2009)

MOXJO7282 said:


> I agree that most potential buyers nowadays would buy resale if made fully aware, but those that would still buy direct, I think, would be higher than 10% because some do make the points system really work for them.
> 
> Also, some won't consider a resale because they want the peace of mind of buying direct. There is something to this because I've bought 5 of my 9 weeks via resale, and it is a hassle to deal with most of these brokers, especially the ones where you get the really low-ball deals. At least that has been my experience.
> 
> Those two types of buyes I think make up probably 20-30%.



Many people believe the "experts." They listen to doctors and teachers (that's a good thing). They think salespeople of the timeshare is the expert - and that those of us on these boards are the parents at the bus stop - the patients searching on the web.

They believe the salespeople who say direct is better because the salespeople are the experts.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 11, 2009)

You mean they're not the experts?  Personally I am shocked beyond words!


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> ... Back to the resale deal. I will make your next Marriott purchase very easy for you. I will be glad to take care of all the hassle and do all of the research on your next resale purchase. All I ask is one half of the money I saved you over a retail purchase. I will gladly do a lot of research and spend lot of time to make one half of $8,000 to $20,000. You will save $4000 to $20,000 and all you will have to do is sign a few papers that will be e-mailed of snail mailed to you. Just let me know where you want to own and I will be on it partner.



:rofl:  Honestly, this is one of the most generous offers I've seen here on TUG, and I thank you!  If ever we're looking for another week I will be sure to look you up (after Don finishes rolling his eyes all over creation at the thought of me being in financial cahoots with one of my invisible TUG friends!) Somewhere in another thread I said that in this economic climate any luxury purchase gives me the heeby-jeebies, and we have enough weeks for the forseeable future, but thanks anyway.  Really.

As for the rest of your post, I appreciate that you're at least making an attempt to understand a difference of opinion.  That's more than some on this thread.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

Tombo -

But the points.  How will you offer me points?  

Most importantly - will you throw in a vacation worth 250,000 (avg incentive points) to the deal?


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 11, 2009)

*Pay me now, pay me later or pay me more for points*



Latravel said:


> Tombo -
> 
> But the points.  How will you offer me points?
> 
> Most importantly - will you throw in a vacation worth 250,000 (avg incentive points) to the deal?



No, he can't. But he'll save you $15-20,000 - that MAY buy you a few of those vacations, no?


----------



## m61376 (Apr 11, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"My intent wasn't to be disparaging... "_
> But you were.  I got a few messages from people expressing support.
> 
> _"after reading all these subsequent posts I am admittedly not quite as sure where Heidi stands today..."  _
> ...



The reason I said that I wasn't sure where you stand today is that it was my impressions (evidently correct) that you would not buy resale, which I have always maintained was your choice. The reason why I wasn't certain is that someone else pointed out an earlier post from you that inferred that you might not buy direct in today's market, and told me I was wrong to have inferred that you would only buy direct. 

Trust me, I am not envious of your decision; similarly, I hope you're not envious of all the money I've saved. I feel that as long as you (or anyone else) makes an informed decision as to what is in their best interests, that's all that counts. I made one that was in my best interests. Of course, I think I'm right- for me, as you do for you. I have NEVER stated that anyone who bought direct was a sucker and have, in fact, mentioned that under the right set of circumstances I might as well. I just don't see that today or in the recent past. That's all. It doesn't make me right and you wrong and it certainly doesn't make me wrong either. Name calling is inappropriate on both sides.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Correct, Alan. It was actually very carefully phrased in reference to the practice, not any individuals.
> 
> But if this thread, and those like it, are proof of anything, it's that a small hardcore group of folks dedicated to defending developer purchase only see what they want to see.



What I see is your exact words, quoted here again:

"_The bigger the gap becomes between resale prices and developer prices, the more vociferous those who got suckered by the developer become in trying to talk others into getting suckered.

It would be amusing if there weren't the aspect of people getting talked into paying thousands more than they have to for the same product._"

You can't possibly expect that any of us could confuse your intent in using various forms of "sucker" with Alan's, which, as he explained very clearly, was to disparage the folks who sell timeshares, not the buyers.  His explanation makes sense to me, and I appreciate that he took the time and effort to make it.  I also appreciate that he appears to be sincere when he says that he will try not to confuse the issue in future discussions.  (Thank you, Alan!  )

No, you've made a very clear statement that you think people who bought developer-direct were suckers for doing so, to the point that their "mistake" can be considered amusement for you, and that they now in turn make every effort to convince potential buyers into doing the same thing they did.  Once again, that is an insulting position to take and it's damn rude.

Besides all that is the fact that not one pro-developer-purchase advocate here has said in any of these discussions that his/her way is the correct way for everyone who ever buys a timeshare.  Can you say the same for all of the folks who share your opinion?


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

slawson928 said:


> Boy, what I tread I started.  Yikes.  ...



Eh, it's been done to death before and it will be again.     I for one enjoy the give-and-take involved with this topic.

Anyway, thanks so much, slawson, for taking the time to give us your detailed point of view.  Every one of us has a different story to tell and each of them is fascinating in its own way.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

pwrshift said:


> Here's a better bet right now than buying resale or direct.  When MAR stock hit a low couple of months back I bought back in around $12 and it's already up to $19.  Not as nice an increase as my RIM stock (which I bought when Obama told the world he wanted to keep his Blackberry) but these days an increase is an increase.  This is perhaps not the time to by any TS ... but it might be the right time to carefully buy equities.
> 
> Brian



Hmmm, thanks, I am passing this on to Don.  Maybe he'll take my invisible TUG friends seriously if he makes a killing, Brian.  HA.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 11, 2009)

Brian, actually i'm in the process of buying another house.  I completely agree stocks and real estate are a much better bet than timeshares right now.  Resale or developer.


----------



## tombo (Apr 11, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Tombo -
> 
> But the points.  How will you offer me points?
> 
> Most importantly - will you throw in a vacation worth 250,000 (avg incentive points) to the deal?



Directly from the Marriott points web site:

"Points may be purchased at the rate of $12.50 per 1,000 points"

So Marriott feels that 250,000 points are worth $3,150 if you bought them RETAIL. If you are paying $3151 more than you could buy the week for resale, you are paying too much for 250,000  points using Marriott's retail purchase price. Plus a point ain't worth what a point used to be worth. As Marriott keeps devaluing Marriott points, and as airlines keep increasing the number of points required to fly, the value of points will continue to depreciate. Points are a sales gimmick, not a right.They are like Monopoly points because they only have whatever value Marriott deems them to have. If Marriott ever changes their rules to give retail owners better reservation windows than resale buyers get, Marriott will probably discontinue points altogether because they will have all the sale advantage they need over resale. 

What are Marriott points really worth? Let's use Delta airfare as a form of valuation. It currently takes 125,000 Marriott points to get 50,000 Delta miles. The least miles needed for round trip coach from Atlanta to Hawaii is 65,000. For 250,000 Marriott points you can't even get 2 round trip coach tickets from Atlanta to Honolulu on 08-01 returning on 08-08, much less accomodations because it would take 340,000 Marriott points to get the minimum required 130,000 delta miles to get 2 coach round trip tickets.

This chart is directly from Marriott web site:

Air Mileage Rewards

Aeromexico, Aeroplan (Air Canada), Alaska, American Airlines, British Airways, Continental, Delta Air Lines, Frontier Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, Mexicana, Northwest, United Airlines, US Airways, Varig Brasil, Virgin Atlantic  
Reward  Points  View Details & Order Reward  
2,000 Miles 10,000 View 
5,000 Miles 20,000 View 
10,000 Miles 30,000 View 
25,000 Miles 70,000 View 
50,000 Miles 125,000 View 



You can buy 2 round trip coach tickets from Atlanta to Honolulu 8-1 to 8-8-09 for $1472.40 total including tax . This from the Delta site:
Price per passenger: $715.00  (USD)  
Taxes/Fees: $21.20  (USD)  
Subtotal per Passenger: $736.20  (USD)  
Total for all passengers (2): $1,472.40  (USD)  
View change & cancellation policies

Using this real life points valuation, 250,000 points aren't even worth $1472.40. Apparently 340,000 Marriott points are only worth $1472.40  cash value. There is no reason to buy retail at $10,000 to $20,000 more than resale when you won't even get enough points to swap for plane tickets worth $1472.40.


I can get you a cheap resale but it won't come with points. So what. Take the $10,000 to $20,000 in savings and do whatever you want with it including buying clothes, jewelry,stocks, bonds, paying college tuition, buying a boat, a 4 wheeler,a Harley, or anything else you want because cash is accepted everywhere. Buy any airline tickets and rent any rooms for the best prices you can find on the net. Stay in Hiltons, Hyatts, Radissons, Four Seasons, Westins,,Motel 6, Red Roof Inns, or any lodging you would like. Try using your points for those things. Try paying the electric bill, the Dr., the Dentist, your mechanic, etc with points. 

Save all the money you can when you buy and use your savings for anything you want or need rather than trying to justify that 250,000 points are worth the $20,000 additional cash you paid to buy retail. As they say down south, "That dog won't hunt".


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 11, 2009)

*So, What Are You Trying To Say, Tombo ?*




tombo said:


> Save all the money you can when you buy and use your savings for anything you want or need rather than trying to justify that 250,000 points are worth the $20,000 additional cash you paid to buy retail. As they say down south, "That dog won't hunt".


Surely you're not suggesting (are you?) that the full-freight timeshares -- even the _Marriott_ full-freight timeshares -- aren't worth the money.  

Who'd a-thunk ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> Directly from the Marriott points web site:
> 
> "Points may be purchased at the rate of $12.50 per 1,000 points"
> 
> ...



I must say Tombo, I really understand your point on this more clearly now. I have been considering buying at Lakeshore Reserve with the 25% off deal. I have always liked the points too, but this thread has really been an eye-opener. I still believe the points give you some flexibility, but it seems to come at a very high cost. I am going to have to give it more consideration. 

I just shared with a poster that if they were happy with their Lakeshore purchase to enjoy it. It seems that Marriott is not a generous with points as they were in the past. That probably will need to happen again to make more informed people want to purchase. 

I must say that you have presented a very convincing argument for resales only.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> ... I can get you a cheap resale but it won't come with points. So what. Take the $10,000 to $20,000 in savings and do whatever you want with it ...



Hey Brian, how many of those MAR equities will tombo's savings buy?

hahahahaha ... sorry, couldn't resist,


----------



## tombo (Apr 11, 2009)

csalter2 said:


> I must say Tombo, I really understand your point on this more clearly now. I have been considering buying at Lakeshore Reserve with the 25% off deal. I have always liked the points too, but this thread has really been an eye-opener. I still believe the points give you some flexibility, but it seems to come at a very high cost. I am going to have to give it more consideration.
> 
> 
> 
> I must say that you have presented a very convincing argument for resales only.



Nothing gives you more flexibility than cash. Cash is welcomed at every  resort, motel, airline, restaurant, retail store, and by any person who offers any retail product or service almost anywhere in the world. Travel whenever you want, fly whatever air line you want, and stay at any resort you want by paying cash. That is true flexibility. Points are limited to points partners. Points are an imaginary currency that can be devalued or discontinued at any time. Buy as cheaply as you can and bank something of value (cash) rather than banking Marriott Monopoly Points.

My argument is convincing because I used a real airline and posted their actual rates with real dates to real locations that can be verified by anyone with internet access. I also posted Marriott's own retail prices that they charge for points and Marriott's exchange values for Delta miles. None of it is refutable. None of it is imaginary figures or the highest air fares I can find. I posted the cheapest air fares on Delta I can find and I posted the least number of Delta miles it would take to travel to the same location on the same date. I posted how many Marriott points it would take to get the minimum number of miles needed to buy 2 round trip tickets. I picked a date a friend of mine is traveling to Hawaii and the air line he is flying on. I listed a specific date to make my figures verifiable.


It is funny that people who used to travel around the world 3 times in first class seats while staying at $800 a night Marriott motels for 30 consecutive days for only 250,000 Marriott points have suddenly become silenced by irrefutable facts. Please feel free to prove anything I said was wrong. If you can't then 250,000 marriott points are worth less than $1400 in real dollars. Facts is Facts.


----------



## capjak (Apr 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> Nothing gives you more flexibility than cash. Cash is welcomed at every  resort, motel, airline, restaurant, retail store, and by any person who offers any retail product or service almost anywhere in the world.



I think the same argument can be made for purchasing a timeshare.


----------



## tombo (Apr 11, 2009)

capjak said:


> I think the same argument can be made for purchasing a timeshare.



Do you mean that you have more flexibility by not purchasing a timeshare? If that is what you are saying I would agree. Rather than investing in any timeshare, you are more flexible using cash to vacation than ownership. However a smart timeshare purchase could save you money every year on vacations if you purchase the right resort for the right price.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2009)

tombo said:


> You mean that you have more flexibility by not purchasing a timeshare? If that is what you are saying I would agree. Rather than investing in any timeshare, you are more flexible using cash to vacation than ownership. However a smart timeshare purchase could save you money every year on vacations if you purchase the right resort for the right price.



Oh geeze, I thought Cap was saying that cash would be welcomed to purchase a timeshare.


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Oh geeze, I thought Cap was saying that cash would be welcomed to purchase a timeshare.



I wasn't sure what he was saying, so i was trying to get him clarify his post.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 12, 2009)

_"It is funny that people who used to travel around the world 3 times in first class seats while staying at $800 a night Marriott motels for 30 consecutive days for only 250,000 Marriott points have suddenly become silenced by irrefutable facts. Please feel free to prove anything I said was wrong."_

I think people are quiet because there really isn't more to say to your logic.  Just see previous threads instead of repeating here.  I'll let you know how much my 2 wk vacation this June I got with points costs with dollars and compare it to your numbers.  Facts are facts, as you say.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 12, 2009)

*A final comment*

I have received three private messages from ladies who read this board who wished to express support for my comments on the benefits of direct purchase.  The sent me a PM because they said they were not brave enough to comment directly on this thread.  They indicated that they were afraid of being called names such as sucker and having their intelligence level questioned and being "yelled at" by those of you WHO LIKE TO TYPE IN VERY LARGE FONTS!  They thanked me for being brave enough to speak up in support of their views.  For those of you who enjoy such tactics and then claim that you didn't mean to be insulting shame on you!   You bring yourself and your cause no credit in this matter.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 12, 2009)

Tombo- While I agree with your analysis up to a point, in the sense of fairness it should be pointed out that the best use of points is purchasing travel award packages. As Brian has repeatedly stated, buying airline miles alone is a waste of points. So the value gotten from the points may be a bit higher if bought and used properly.

That said, it is hard to argue with the fact that you can buy those same points for a lot less money. When Marriott offers 200,000 incentive points they are offering you something that you can buy for $2500 from them directly over the course of 2 years (assuming a 50,000 purchase by husband and wife annually). Aside from the up front points, I don't see the advantage of trading in a unit annually. Even if you can effectively argue that you get more value from those 200K points, they are still only worth what you can purchase them for. 

Maybe I'm a bit obtuse here, but it just doesn't make sense to me to give up use of an expensive unit (after all, the premise is that we pad big bucks for it because using it has a value), pay Marriott $104 for the privilege of giving up use of the unit for the year, pay MF's of anywhere from about $750 to $1700 or $1800, for somewhere in the vicinity of 100,000 points (give or take depending on the resort), which I can just as easily go and buy from Marirott for $1250 and still enjoy the use of that expensive week that I thought was worth shelling out money for in the first place. And- I can do that every year; so, after 3 years or so I can have enough points accumulated for that "fabulous world class trip," rather than having to accumulate points over 5-6 years (with every other year trades).

As I'm pontificating here something funny comes to mind, which is really analogous to this argument. As I've said before, I am a great shopper, and I love to shop for good things and pride myself on finding great prices. I often kid my husband that I save him money by finding such great deals, because I increase our net worth (rationalizing that the value of what I've bought is more than I've spent). Of course, he quips back that he should see more money in the bank in that case. This has been a running joke with us. In a sense, I can see the flip side of the points value argument- vacation plans are made whose value exceeds the purchase price of the points used to buy them. If we take rack rates (akin to list prices) for travel booked, an argument can be made that 200,000 points can generate a value of $5,000 or even perhaps as high as $10,000 (or more- the valuation here doesn't really matter). So it is easy to justify an inflated worth. BUT- are they really worth any more than the $2500 they can be purchased for? Or, when we book a great trip, are we just getting a good value for our points, akin to buying anything tangible on a good sale? 

If we can replace the points with others that have the same potential usage and the same "buying power," then the purchase cost of those points should be really the value we assign to them. It just occurred to me that points are almost like buying a discount certificate. A $50 certificate may be good for $100 worth of merchandise, but it still is only worth $50, because that's what it cost.

Following this logic, then, the only rationale I can see for paying more to have the option to trade for points is for anyone who wants not only to purchase points annually at the maximum allowable limit, but also wants to be able to supplement those points and feels they can get enough value so as to pay a premium for those extra points. If the buyer feels he/she is getting enough value for those points despite the costs (paying more money up front to purchase, giving up use of an expensive week, paying the annual MF's plus a $104 fee for the privilege of all that), then that course might make sense for them. 

Personally speaking, however, I cannot understand the rationale of paying more so as to be able to trade for points that I could easily buy with the interest I make on the savings I'd otherwise have by buying the same property resale (and would still be retaining the principal in the bank). 

There are a couple of other less tangible aspects to this argument which in all fairness should be acknowledged. The ability to trade for points, even though I don't think makes sense from a financial perspective, does give an alternative option. The practical response to this is not to buy more timeshare weeks then you will realistically want to use. That way, you'll have both the savings and the free time to use for alternative travel (so you can take both those types of trips that you can otherwise book with points as well as other forms of vacation, such as cruises, etc.). 

Admittedly, there is another argument that is less easy to counter- akin to the argument that if you buy a timeshare you'll use it: if you can trade for points without much of an additional cost you will, and you will take those vacations which you otherwise might not. Once you've paid for the week up front, getting those points seems almost free, although they really aren't. I would agree that by trading for points you may be more apt to take a vacation you wouldn't otherwise plan for, because you would be considering the costs consciously rather than just looking at it as practically a freebie. Although I would still argue that you can book that same trip either using cash or, if you feel those points are such an incredible value, by planning and purchasing those points over the course of three years or so (rather than trading EOY, which also requires forethought and planning), this is really the only argument that is hard to counter simply by a rational accounting. And, since many people justify buying a timeshare in the first place for the very reason that it forces them to take the vacation they would otherwise think twice about spending the money for, in the same fashion this decision can make sense for some people as well.

So, while I still think it is hard to argue that it makes sense financially, I can understand the decision that it makes sense personally.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*Yelling?  I Didn't Hear Any Yelling.*




KathyPet said:


> They indicated that they were afraid of being called names such as sucker and having their intelligence level questioned and being "yelled at" by those of you WHO LIKE TO TYPE IN VERY LARGE FONTS!


Only large-font typing anywhere in this discussion topic is an all-caps Size 7 blue _Thank You_ back there in Entry 32.  Here & there some participants have added a few regular-size lines in bold.  Other than that, everything in the entire discussion topic is typed in small or medium-small.  

This entry, for example, & practically everything else from the same source (me), is in Size 3.  Anything smaller in this lettering style is too hard to read.  Anything larger takes up too much space.  Check it out *. . .* 

Size 1
Size 2
Size 3 
Size 4 
Size 5 
Size 6
Size 7 ​
A remarkable feature of this discussion topic has been its overriding quality of reasoned tone & civil disposition, largely free of insults & personal attacks though not free of content or sharply made points.  Nobody called anybody stupid.  Nobody disparaged anyone for disagreeing.  Nobody who used the word _sucker_ intended any insult, & once those who took it that way said so, the _sucker_-slingers offered to mend their ways.  

No "yelling" happened, unless you count that oversize capital-letter _Thank You_ from way back.  So next time you're in touch with those shy ladies, it will be OK to let them know this is a safe place to join in the give & take, insult-free & non-yelling.

Thanks for typing. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 12, 2009)

AwayWeGo, Obviously your perception of the discussion on this thread and the tone in which it was conducted is very different than the perception of those who PM'd me.  One of my messages actually referred to some posters as "Resale Nazi's"  Certainly that person was not "feeling the love" in the tone of this discussion.  I have no problem in standing up for myself and my point of view but when others are feeling intimidated by other's comments on this thread and then are reluctant to post then there is a problem whether you admit  it or not.  Having a strong opinion and not being afraid to state it is one thing.  Name calling and denigrating the intelligence of those who choose another path to ownership is simply not acceptable.


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"It is funny that people who used to travel around the world 3 times in first class seats while staying at $800 a night Marriott motels for 30 consecutive days for only 250,000 Marriott points have suddenly become silenced by irrefutable facts. Please feel free to prove anything I said was wrong."_
> 
> I think people are quiet because there really isn't more to say to your logic.  Just see previous threads instead of repeating here.  I'll let you know how much my 2 wk vacation this June I got with points costs with dollars and compare it to your numbers.  Facts are facts, as you say.



While you are searching for the highest plane fares and most expensive room rates you can find to show how much money your points have saved you, spend a few minutes calculating how much more cash you had to spend to get those points by buying retail instead of resale and how much interest you could have earned with that cash in the bank. Add the cash to the interest to see how much the points actually cost you. 

Also remember that all the charges you made during the year to get points have nothing to do with buying retail from Marriott. Anyone can get a Marriott credit card and earn points throughout the year as they charge their living expenses and purchases. Any couple can buy 100,000 points each year for $1250 whether they own a Marriott week or not. Only figure how many points you actually received by buying retail from Marriott the developer and how much more you paid over resale for them to give you those points. I have 2 free round trip Delta tickets to Aruba I am using next month that I got by using my Credit card (yes I pay the balance off each month). I did this without buying a single retail timeshare. I also have enough Starwood points to get several free nights ldging, and I have never purchased a Starwood resort retail either. Only factor in the number of points you received from your retail purchase to get a fair value of purchase price to points.

If you are not sure how much more you paid for your week(s) retail over what you could have purchased the same week(s) for resale, please list your resort(s) and purchase price(s) and we can give you some real dollar values to work with. If you got 250,000 Mariott points and you paid $20,000 more than you could have purchased the same week for resale, those "free" Marriott points cost you $20,000. Marriott sells 250,000 points for $3150, so that is not a good deal even using Mariott's own retail prices.

There might be better deals out there for air fares using points which would make points appear more valuable. There might be cheaper air line prices than I listed making points worth less.  I just know for sure that if I want to go to my newly purchased Marriott Ko'Olina from Atlanta round trip coach for 2 on Delta, I can spend 340,000 Marriott points, or I can spend $1472.40 cash. In this real world case 340,000 points are only worth $1472.40 cash. I can assure you that I will save more than $8000 on a Ko'Olina resale purchase over buying retail meaning that I could spend $1500 for air fare and put at least $6500 in the bank by buying resale and not getting  points. The $6500 (minimum) I could put in the bank would buy over 500,000 points using Marriott's own retail prices, and this $6500 is still in the bank after buying 2 r/t tickets that would have cost me 340,000 points. Even worse, if I only got 250,000 points with the retail purchase, I could only get one r/t Hawaii ticket using points, and I would have to pay cash for the other ticket since I wouldn't even have enough points to get 2 tickets. How about this, rather than worrying about points and paying $8000 to $20,000 more to get them, why not take $9000 (for example) in savings from a resale purchase and pay for r/t tickets for 2 to your new resort in Hawaii every single year for the next 6 years?
Facts is Facts.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*Absolutely Right -- To A Point.*




KathyPet said:


> Name calling and denigrating the intelligence of those who choose another path to ownership is simply not acceptable.


I won't be going back over the whole thing & re-reading every item to re-check, but by me the tone was pretty civil throughout this discussion topic without any name-calling & no denigration.  By me, the possibility has to be at least considered that responsibility for some of those perceptions is in the eye of the beholder. 

That is, if somebody like me keeps on saying _Buy Timeshares Resale & Save Thousands_ or _ROFR *=* ROFL_ (or both), & somebody else feels insulted or denigrated over that, then that's not on me, that's on them. 

By the same token, if somebody points out to me that I could have paid lots less for substantially the same thing that I bought for big bux, then how I feel about that is on me & not on the person pointing it out -- not unless the pointer-outer was laughing & pointing fingers & singing _Nanny Nanny Boo Boo,_ etc., which flat-out never happened in this discussion topic. 

Sometimes it boils down to a situation like the guy in that tomato juice commercial -- you know, _Whoa -- I Could Have Had A V-8._ 

I agree that it's appropriate & OK to ask overaggressive types to pull in their horns.  But when nobody's got horns out, not so much. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2009)

I am addicted to WEEI SportsTalkRadio here in Boston, which has an afternoon host (Glenn Ordway) who is all in one package quite knowledgeable, infuriatingly sexist, downright ROFL funny, highly insulting, and immensely entertaining.  Perhaps his most-honed quality is his ability to teeter on the fence as gracefully as a ballet dancer, which assures that he will always be absolutely correct in hindsight.

The resale v. developer threads on this site, all of them, make me feel like I'm reading a version of Glenn's show.

Like Kathy I have received several private notes from folks who are glad that there are people in this thread who are vocal in their defense against the "ALWAYS BUY RESALE!" mindset that many people on the site hold as a mantra, because they're not able for whatever reason to voice their own thoughts.  I've even sent one to Alan, uninvited, in support of his thorough explanation of his use of the "sucker" perceived insult.

The thing about this topic is that it gets recycled quite frequently and it's impossible to absorb each individual thread on its own.  I don't think any of us are able to re-visit the topic without at least remembering the positives and negatives from every related thread.  So although _here_ there may not be THIS KIND OF YELLING or use of the "unintelligent," "stupid," or (my personal favorite) "illogical" insults, you can't help but project them.

I agree with Kathy and the private emailers (kumBYYYYaaaaahhhhh....) that some pro-resale folks are intimidating and do not help their cause one iota with their particular form of message delivery.  I also agree with Alan that it would be nice (someone's sinnnngggging....) if all folks would feel comfortable enough to join the discussion, whatever its tone or direction might be at the time.  But I disagree that the particular insult, "sucker," has been retired by _all_ those who choose to hurl it.

Which brings me back to Glenn Ordway and The Big Show.  This topic sometimes makes me feel that we're all ballet dancers of a sort.


----------



## ondeadlin (Apr 12, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> I have received three private messages from ladies who read this board who wished to express support for my comments on the benefits of direct purchase.  The sent me a PM because they said they were not brave enough to comment directly on this thread.  They indicated that they were afraid of being called names such as sucker and having their intelligence level questioned and being "yelled at" by those of you WHO LIKE TO TYPE IN VERY LARGE FONTS!  They thanked me for being brave enough to speak up in support of their views.  For those of you who enjoy such tactics and then claim that you didn't mean to be insulting shame on you!   You bring yourself and your cause no credit in this matter.



Oh, yeah, well I have FOUR pms who feel the same way about you, you big meanie!

LOL.

:rofl:


----------



## Latravel (Apr 12, 2009)

KathyPet-

I got pm messages also expressing support.  People thank me for "holding the torch", as one said, for direct purchasers.  People are afraid of speaking up for fear of being insulted.  Isn't that a shame?

It's almost as if this board has been hijacked by outspoken rogue posters who are basically very new owners (some not owners at all) who waited to purchase when prices were rock bottom and think they are somehow experts or the norm.  

They in NO WAY represent the an expert opinion or the norm of Marriott owners.  I really hope people thinking of buying a Marriott know that or don't get turned off.  This is the main reason why I keep speaking up!


Tombo-  I see your calculations and just don't agree. In my line of work, I do much more complicated mathematical computations so I don't need to exaggerate numbers.  The numbers just have to make sense to me.


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Oh, yeah, well I have FOUR pms who feel the same way about you, you big meanie!
> 
> LOL.
> 
> :rofl:



No one is pm'ing me. I am feeling left out. Maybe I need to be meaner. :whoopie:


----------



## lisilv (Apr 12, 2009)

I have read every single message on this thread which I found very informative (the thread). 

I purchased from developer once, and yes.. I was able to make GOOD use of the points. On the other hand, while talking to a sales person from Marriott last week, the lady even said that exchanging week for points is not a good option, but yet, they keep on saying that the big advantage of buying developer is the option to trade the week for points... go figure!!!


----------



## m61376 (Apr 12, 2009)

I think these posts are important, and even if i don't agree with some of the analysts, I welcome any and all posts/posters. No one should feel intimidated or their vantage points unwelcome. I think that is how we all learn.

I think a happy timeshare owner, whether purchased direct or via resale, is an educated one. And I don't mean professionally educated here- I mean aware of "timeshare reality." That includes awareness of the resale market and what a particular developer offers or does not offer to its resale purchasers. That includes understanding the price differences between resale and buying direct. That includes how different people valuate any direct purchase perks (in Marriott's case, that is the ability to trade for points). An animated discussion of how "worth" can be evaluated is certainly germane here. I acknowledge that others use of different method to calculate this value and, while I naturally think I am right, if they feel that they are getting their calculated value and it makes financial sense for them, then who am I to care? The only reason you should really care what others think is to gain insight and at least analyze another perspective.

That's how I feel like I've learned so much (although I am sure some of the posters feel I know very little  ) and I can feel confident in my decisions. Different strokes for different folks...and I hope we all get years of happy, healthy enjoyment from our purchases, and never look back with any regret at what or how we made those purchases. And that's why I wholeheartedly encourage everyone to join in the discussion and not be so intimidated as to PM and lurk by the sidelines.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 12, 2009)

lisilv said:


> I purchased from developer once, and yes.. I was able to make GOOD use of the points. On the other hand, while talking to a sales person from Marriott last week, the lady even said that exchanging week for points is not a good option, but yet, they keep on saying that the big advantage of buying developer is the option to trade the week for points... go figure!!!



Wonder how long she will be a Marriott saleswoman.

One of the things that bothers me in the whole trading for points argument is that, on one hand, Marriott maintains that their weeks have an inherent value (and we agree, or we wouldn't be buying-direct or resale). They lay it out at a sales presentation such that after about 10 years (or less, depending upon the rack rates at the particular resort) it will have paid for itself. So, assuming for argument's sake a 30K purchase, then each week of vacation time should be worth 3K + the annual MF's, if you are spreading out your up-front cost over 10 years. The idea is that after about 10 years your vacations are free (well, not really free, because there are those MF's to contend with). But, for the first 10 years, each of those weeks for this 30K example should have about a $4000 value. On the flip side, when they present what a wonderful "bargain" those points are, they tell you they are only costing the annual MF + a trade fee. Somehow the inherent value of the week, touted as part of the reason to purchase, becomes lost. Aside from being able to buy the points directly, in many cases for at or less than the MF+trade fee while still being able to retain the week's use, I have trouble with the assertion that, on one hand, that week has real value (as in the original purchase price divided by a pay back period, which some salespeople tout at about the 10 year mark) and on the other hand only asserting that the cost when trading for points is the annual MF +$104 trade fee. Somehow the loss of the inherent value which was paid for up front of the week is lost. I can see that as being a non-issue perhaps 15 or 20 years down the road, but at least for the first decade it has to enter into the cost analysis- at least from my perspective.

Maybe those who happily trade for points view things from the vantage point that it was all paid for already so the up front costs are no longer a factor to consider.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2009)

tombo said:


> No one is pm'ing me. I am feeling left out. Maybe I need to be meaner. :whoopie:



Lose my $8,000 in a resale deal gone bad and I'll get all my invisible TUG friends to flood your emailbox.


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 12, 2009)

At the end of that day we all own our timeshares, either from developer or resale purchases. We hopefully all enjoy our timeshares and perceive value in them. 

This thread should be used by those uninformed as a useful tool to help them make their decisions on the purchase of a timeshare. This thread is a voice that can be used as a comparison to what developer sales people are telling them to what we as owners have experienced. The positive value of this discussion should be clear to all.


----------



## ondeadlin (Apr 12, 2009)

Latravel said:


> KathyPet-
> 
> It's almost as if this board has been hijacked by outspoken rogue posters who are basically very new owners (some not owners at all) who waited to purchase when prices were rock bottom and think they are somehow experts or the norm.



Funny, Heidi, from what I can tell, I was a Marriott owner and a TUG member long before you were, and yet I feel like the same statement more accurately applies to the pro-developer crowd.

Especially given how many more times you post on the subject than seemingly anyone else.


----------



## SMB1 (Apr 12, 2009)

I am, like the BIG O, on the fence regarding weather or not to buy resale/direct.  I've done both, and would do both again.  At this time after buying two direct weeks, and already having the flexibility of points, I would probably buy resale, especially with the current resale prices.  If it were my first puchace, even knowing (or maybe I should say especially knowing) what I know now I would buy direct because I like the option points option.  If I were to buy a second week at OceanWatch I would probably buy direct because the difference in price isn't that great.  

I don't feel insulted by any posts here.  I don't, however, understand why some of you who would only buy resale want everyone else to feel the same way.  Why does it matter so much to you.  I feel like I'm talking to a NASCAR fan who will not let a completely one-sided (because I really I choose not to belabor) discussion go until I just smile and nod and say "Oh okay, I see now why drivers are the greatest athletes in the world; and that NASCAR is the greatest sport.  How could I have been so uninformed.  How ignorant of me to have enjoyed football more than wathing men drive in circles for 500 miles."

Maybe there really is no right or wrong choice here, as many have posted numerous times in this post alone.  Maybe they can be right as well as you.  What is better, man to man defense or zone?  Prove it.  Sometimes it is okay to disagree.


----------



## NWL (Apr 12, 2009)

I am one of the people who PM’d Latravel, KathyPet, and SueDonJ.  I chose not to post on this thread (except for my post thanking Chris for pointing out a basic economic reality of the situation) because I am neither as articulate nor as informed as the folks on this thread.  I PM’d them because I wanted them to know that I admired their ability to voice their opinions so well.  

Cheers!


----------



## gmarine (Apr 12, 2009)

tombo said:


> While you are searching for the highest plane fares and most expensive room rates you can find to show how much money your points have saved you, spend a few minutes calculating how much more cash you had to spend to get those points by buying retail instead of resale and how much interest you could have earned with that cash in the bank. Add the cash to the interest to see how much the points actually cost you.
> 
> Also remember that all the charges you made during the year to get points have nothing to do with buying retail from Marriott. Anyone can get a Marriott credit card and earn points throughout the year as they charge their living expenses and purchases. Any couple can buy 100,000 points each year for $1250 whether they own a Marriott week or not. Only figure how many points you actually received by buying retail from Marriott the developer and how much more you paid over resale for them to give you those points. I have 2 free round trip Delta tickets to Aruba I am using next month that I got by using my Credit card (yes I pay the balance off each month). I did this without buying a single retail timeshare. I also have enough Starwood points to get several free nights ldging, and I have never purchased a Starwood resort retail either. Only factor in the number of points you received from your retail purchase to get a fair value of purchase price to points.
> 
> ...



This is a pretty good evaluation of the costs of using points with a  developer purchase versus resale purchase. 

Since 1994 when I bought my first timeshare I have been on many Marriott presentations and worked the numbers many times in trying to figure out if it made sense financially to buy from Marriott for the ability to trade for MR points. It never did. The only way I could even come close to justifying it was when I was offered half million or more incentive points. This was also before points were devalued and before you could buy 100K points for $1300.

Right now if you consider the ability to purchase MR points and still keep your unit for use I cant see how it could ever make financial sense to buy from the developer just for the ability to trade your unit in for MR points.

The posts referring to IMs by people who are afraid to post for fear of being yelled at really crack me up. How does someone who is afraid of being yelled at on a message board ever leave their home.


----------



## MOXJO7282 (Apr 12, 2009)

The resale hawks have been saying the same thing ever since I purchased my first direct in 2002, I'm sure even before then. Back then Marriott was giving 500k points and the prices weren't so high, so IMHO buying direct for prime beach locations did make sense.

Grandually Marriott reduced the points offered as incentives and pricing went through the roof, making the hawks argument more valid.

As a result it's really is hard to justify a direct purchase today. The ony direct purchase I can think of that may make sense is perhaps a plat+ week at a prime location that is very rare to come by in resale and the spread of direct to resale is not as great as a plat direct vs. resale. 

Myrtle Beach comes to mind. I bought my Plat+ direct  in 2004, and would love to acquire another  but I haven't seen many since then and none at a great price.

There are probably others in that category as well. 


Also there is something to be said for dealing with Marriott for the peace of mind factor. I've purchased 6 resale and really hated the experience. Each time the process took so long, I never did get a good week the first year of ownership, which in my case reduces the value because I rent most of my weeks.


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Lose my $8,000 in a resale deal gone bad and I'll get all my invisible TUG friends to flood your emailbox.




I promise that I won't lose your money because I wouldn't get paid my commission which as we agreed is 50% of the money I saved you.  

I was kidding by the way. I am glad that I am not getting any PM's/


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*Resale Hawks?  Shux, We're More Like Resale Screaming Eagles.*

If we (The Chief Of Staff & I) were not into resale timeshares, we would not be into timeshares at all. 

The only reason timeshare ownership makes any sense (to us) came to us after were hit with the realization that all timeshares are _used-used-used_ (by the time the owner shows up & checks in), & so therefore paying "new" prices for a non-new big-ticket item is a total non-starter.  

For us the light dawned when we spied a large highway billboard as we were driving back to our dinky motel after surviving a high-pressure timeshare sales pitch & tour in Kissimmee FL.  

Huge capital letters on the billboard said *. . .* 

*TIMESHARES -- BUY RESALE 
SAVE THOUSANDS*​
*. . .* so as soon as we got home from our vacation we called the toll-free number off the billboard -- & the rest is history. 

Now, granted, the sales pitch we got was straight full-freight Timeshare 101 from a plain-vanilla timeshare company -- no Marriott, no Hilton, no Hyatt, no Wyndham, & thus we were not offered any _Platinum Priority This_ or _Gold VIP That_ or any points-based tie-ins with associated benefits like airline miles, etc. 

If we had been offered any of those things, I'm not sure how we would have reacted, although I strongly suspect we would not have gone for _Buy It Now-Now-Now_ from any timeshare company, high-end or mid-range or humble.  We like to take our time & figure things out just a little before taking the plunge blindly on anything we're not familiar with. 

But even so, who knows ? 

I mean, 1 time when a Celebrity Resorts high-pressure timeshare seller kept upping the number of free Celebrity Cruises included in the full-freight offer, I was afraid there for a while that The Chief Of Staff was about to whip out her checkbook.   Before long, however, she caught on that for the difference between full freight & resale she could buy any number of luxury cruises on her own -- assuming that she wanted to go on cruises and assuming further that she wanted, even resale, to buy the timeshare that was being offered.  

However that may be, even though we consistently recommend buying timeshares resale in order to save thousands of dollars by contrast with the cost of full-freight timeshares, nothing about our views on the subject should be construed as dumping on anybody else who's weighed the options independently & come out with a conclusion that's different from ours. 

By us, any man or woman or couple should jolly well pay as much or as little for timeshares as they jolly well want to pay, & should buy timeshares from any source whatsoever that they choose to buy from, timeshare company or resale broker or eBay or private owner _mox nix_. 

Is this a great country or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*Sour Grapes ?*




tombo said:


> I am glad that I am not getting any PM's


Shux, I like the nice Private Message I got. 

I'm even trying to think up some way I might get the same person to send more. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## abak88 (Apr 12, 2009)

People keep referring to being able buy a platinum week for $8000.  I'm a non-Mariott owner in Myrtle Beach, and I would love to buy a week at Ocean Watch for that price, but I've never seen anything close to that.  

I bought from a developer, and originally had buyer's remorse after finding out about resale.  But I have used my TS well, and feel I have received my money's worth.     I check around ebay and classified listings for resale, hoping to add one more week for our family, and I honestly haven't seen a cheap unit at my resort.  I'm not convinced that all of these great deals people are talking about are as plentiful as implied.


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 12, 2009)

*Asking isn't anything close to selling price*



abak88 said:


> People keep referring to being able buy a platinum week for $8000.  I'm a non-Mariott owner in Myrtle Beach, and I would love to buy a week at Ocean Watch for that price, but I've never seen anything close to that.
> 
> I bought from a developer, and originally had buyer's remorse after finding out about resale.  But I have used my TS well, and feel I have received my money's worth.     I check around ebay and classified listings for resale, hoping to add one more week for our family, and I honestly haven't seen a cheap unit at my resort.  I'm not convinced that all of these great deals people are talking about are as plentiful as implied.



You have to look all around AND realize that the asking price for any resort is meaningless. If it is low and you feel it is a good deal than you can make an easy buy by accepting it and offering the asking price. But many (most?) times people think their week is worth far more than it is. If they haven't lowered the asking price to a realistic level (yet) then simply offer what you are willing to pay. Since, like you, most buyers won't even make an offer when they think the price is too high you'll often be pleasantly surprised that your "lowball" $8000 offer for a "$15,900" week will be welcomed! They don't have any others so they may jump at it!  Or they may tell you to get lost (but contact you a few weeks or months later asking if you're still interested once reality hits).  Even if thats the response, so what? There are plenty more out there every week. Just keep trying and you will get the deal you want. Don't be afraid to offer low as that is the real market value and most owners eventually realize it.

And even those "high" prices that most resale buyers would never pay are deeply discounted from Marriott direct prices. It is a buyers market - use it to your full advantage.


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

abak88 said:


> People keep referring to being able buy a platinum week for $8000.  I'm a non-Mariott owner in Myrtle Beach, and I would love to buy a week at Ocean Watch for that price, but I've never seen anything close to that.
> 
> I bought from a developer, and originally had buyer's remorse after finding out about resale.  But I have used my TS well, and feel I have received my money's worth.     I check around ebay and classified listings for resale, hoping to add one more week for our family, and I honestly haven't seen a cheap unit at my resort.  I'm not convinced that all of these great deals people are talking about are as plentiful as implied.



E-bay has the best resale prices. If you watch long enough a week at your resort will come for sale on e-bay. Recent Platinum e-bay sales: auction number 290305781043 which was a platinum Shadow Ridge that sold for $7800, another sold for $7600 auction number 250395381113, Auction number 350185489932  which was a platinum ocean view Kauai Beach Club that sold for $7102, auction number 130297321287  which was a platinum Newport Coast Beach week which sold for $11,600, auction 140311168686 which was a Mauai Ocean Club even year platinum which sold for $4650, auction number 150335135981  platinum Ko Olina which sold for $11,300, and auction number 160324056918 for a 2 bed 3 bath odd year Maui Ocean club which sold for $9988. I only listed Platinum units and only weeks that have sold on e-bay in the last 2 weeks. Be patient and your resort will have weeks for sale on e-bay too. Even if you can't find a week at Ocean Watch for $8000, you can always buy a platinum week at another resort for $8000 or less and trade into Ocean Watch.

E-bay is not the only placeto buyresales.Redweek,TUG,Myresortnetwork.com, etc all have weeks for sale. Right now on redweek there are 18 weeks at Ocean Watch for sale. There is a bronze week with an asking price of $2000, a silver week with an $8500 asking price, a gold ocean view with asking price of $12,900, and a platinum ocean view with an asking price of $19,500. As timeso2 said asking prices are often negotiable. E-mail every seller that has a week you are interested in and ask them what is the least they would take for their week. One of them might shock you if they haven't had any offers and are ready to get rid of it. It never hurts to ask because the worst they can say is no.

Yes platinum weeks at Marriott resorts are selling for $8000 or less, but not at every Marriott resort. Even if you can't buy a platinum week at your resort for $8000 resale doesn't mean that resale can't save you $8000 or even more over a retail purchase. Let's say that none of the above sellers will negotiate and you had to pay their full asking price. How much money would you save on any of the above over Marriott's retail prices? If you want to buy at your resort and nowhere else, be patient and watch e-bay. You might be posting on TUG that you just purchased a platinum week at Ocean Watch for $8000 resale in the near future.


----------



## Latravel (Apr 12, 2009)

Ondeadlin - 
I don't understand your post only that it sounds vaguely impolite.  Are you even an owner?  

I think some of your posts are why people are pm'ing support instead of posting.  It's a shame legitimate owners are afraid to post because of visitors, even if they are Tug members..  This prevents the sharing of knowledge and constructive communication.  

As much as I love this subject  , i'm leaving on vacation tomorrow morning so good luck holding down the fort to my direct purchase friends!  Thanks for the pm's and genuine words of support!


----------



## m61376 (Apr 12, 2009)

abak88 said:


> People keep referring to being able buy a platinum week for $8000.  I'm a non-Mariott owner in Myrtle Beach, and I would love to buy a week at Ocean Watch for that price, but I've never seen anything close to that.
> 
> I bought from a developer, and originally had buyer's remorse after finding out about resale.  But I have used my TS well, and feel I have received my money's worth.     I check around ebay and classified listings for resale, hoping to add one more week for our family, and I honestly haven't seen a cheap unit at my resort.  I'm not convinced that all of these great deals people are talking about are as plentiful as implied.



While Platinum weeks at other resorts have gone for 8K and a few for even less, there are a few resorts which have had almost no listings on Ebay and, while they are available on the resale market, they are still going for about 50% off and not for the higher discounts that have been touted as being available on some of the other properties. These include Plat. Ocean Watch weeks, Plat. HH weeks, Aruba weeks (both Plat. and Gold for the most part here, with the exception of 2 Gold weeks back in Nov. which went for unmatchable prices on Ebay), Plat. ski weeks. Resale prices at these and perhaps a few other Marriotts have softened maybe 10-15% to around 50% versus a third off or so, but have not plummeted in this market. 

So, while you may not be able to get a real cheap deal, saving about half over retail is nothing to dismiss. For a Platinum Ocean Watch week to go in the $8000 vicinity though I think we'd need to see the economy get even worse than it is. I do agree with the above post though- it never hurts to try. Try negotiating with every seller you can find; you just may find one who is a bit more desperate to sell, especially today.


----------



## ecwinch (Apr 12, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Ondeadlin -
> Are you even an owner?
> 
> I think some of your posts are why people are pm'ing support instead of posting.  It's a shame legitimate owners are afraid to post because of visitors, even if they are Tug members..  This prevents the sharing of knowledge and constructive communication.



Why does his opinion matter any less based on his ownership? I see this position used all the time to somehow discount the opinion of another TUG member. Some how only those that are "owners" at resort X, can offer  valuable opinion or insight. The logic that they should not post, because they are not owners is not what TUG is all about.

IMHO - if you only want to share your opinion with members of your group, take it Yahoo.

And it is a shame that TUG members are afraid to post. However it sounds like someone who lacks the courage of their convictions, rather then the fault of another poster. 

Particularly when we cite one member whose only fault is that he uses a large font. And I do not know this to be the case, but have you every thought that maybe that person might have diminishing eyesight or be legally blind? Or maybe it is just easier on their eyes. Do we not want that person not to participate either?

It is not a TUG I want to participate in when we seek to exclude people not based on their merit, but on other extraneous characteristics.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 12, 2009)

Typing on a internet message board in caps or in a font substantially larger than the default font used on the board is considered yelling.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*G. Z. P. Z.*




ecwinch said:


> Particularly when we cite one member whose only fault is that he uses a large font.


Only fault ? 

You obviously don't know me all that well to be suggesting anything like that.  

Shux, I've got faults The Chief Of Staff doesn't even know about -- & she knows me better than anyone on earth. 

In any case, by me the font referred to is not large -- only Size 3 (i.e., medium-small).  (For reference, Size 7 is the largest offered.)  

If it weren't OK to use the various lettering sizes & styles any way we like on TUG-BBS, then I'm sure the Grand Pro would disable those options.  I mean, if they're not there for us to use, then what _are_ they there for ?



ecwinch said:


> I do not know this to be the case, but have you every thought that maybe that person might have diminishing eyesight or be legally blind?


Although I am not legally blind (far from it), it is only accurate to describe me as a cross-eyed old coot.  (Strabismus, getting worse.)  Even so, that has no bearing -- as in_ zero, zip, zilch, zorch, nil, null, none, nada, not any_ -- no bearing on the lettering sizes & styles I select for TUG-BBS entries. 

My preferred lettering style is called Comic Sans MS -- get it?  _Comic_ -- as in _Don't Take Any Of This Stuff Seriously Because It's All Just For Fun._

The only practical size for that lettering style is Size 3.  Sizes 1 & 2 are too hard for anybody to read, cross-eyed or non-cross-eyed _mox nix._  Sizes 4 & larger take up too much space. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## tombo (Apr 12, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> Shux, I like the nice Private Message I got.
> 
> I'm even trying to think up some way I might get the same person to send more.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Yoda, please teach me how to yell at people on the net. I believe the farce to be strong in those who can perceive yelling with no actual sound. I have seen and enjoyed many of your posts "great yelling one". I am not able to scream because I don't know how to yell with my typing size remaining unchanged. All of your posts have been in large font, yet many here can sense yelling and disdain without you even having to change the size of the type in your posts. Please teach me how to inject inflection into my posts while never changing the size of my font. You alone must be the keeper of the silent scream. Impart your wisdom to this humble TUGGER so I too can harness the power of the yell.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*I Don't Think So.*




KathyPet said:


> Typing on a internet message board in caps or in a font substantially larger than the default font used on the board is considered yelling.


Not exactly. 

Typing in all capital letters _is_ considered Internet yelling -- shouting, some say.  (_Mox nix._)

But granting for the sake of agreement that a "substantially larger" than standard (i.e., default) font also means yelling, who gets to say how much larger amounts to _substantially_ larger ? 

By me, Size 3 in my TUG-BBS lettering style of choice is regular, plain-vanilla standard conversational decibel level.  

Smaller than that is too hard to read.  Larger than that takes up too much space.  (With other lettering styles, your mileage may vary.  They're not all the same.  Try'm.  You might like'm.) 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 12, 2009)

The asking prices on most Marriott resale units are often unrealistically high.  I figure this is either because the seller really doesn't know that he can't get what he is asking or he does know but is hoping to snare a uniformed buyer.  I think it is more of the former than the latter.  However, you never know what is motivating someone to sell and you don't know how anxious they might be to move their unit.  You never know until you try so all it costs you is the time you spend sending E Mails to sellers.  However in order to find a platinum Ocean Watch week for the price you want to pay will not be easy since I vaguely remember that platinum ocean view prices were at least double what you want to pay at pre-construction pricing so you would need to find a VERY MOTIVATED seller to get one that low.


----------



## ecwinch (Apr 12, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Typing on a internet message board in caps or in a font substantially larger than the default font used on the board is considered yelling.



Clearly typing in Caps is yelling (it comes from e-mail). Typing in a larger than default font, might be construed as yelling, if that person did not use that font at all times. And as anyone who frequents TUG know, Alan has done it since I can remember. 

It clearing is not yelling, if it is an option that you can set in your preferences.

And Alan - I was not inferring that you were eyesight challenged, I was just commenting that we should be more tolerate of other's idiosyncrosies. And as anyone who frequents TUG knows, that is not your only fault.  No need for dragging the Chief of Staff into it.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 12, 2009)

*The Worst They Can Say.*




tombo said:


> It never hurts to ask because the worst they can say is no.


The _worst_ they can say is _Hell No & Bleep You !_ 

Fortunately, most are too polite to do that. 

And even if they do, so what ?  

Stix & stones, etc.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 13, 2009)

*The Way It's Done.*




tombo said:


> Yoda, please teach me how to yell at people on the net.






-- hotlinked --​
_Use_ The Force, _Tombo.  Use_ The Force. 

-- Yoda.​


----------



## SpikeMauler (Apr 13, 2009)

abak88 said:


> I check around ebay and classified listings for resale, hoping to add one more week for our family, and I honestly haven't seen a cheap unit at my resort.  I'm not convinced that all of these great deals people are talking about are as plentiful as implied.



Remember, the classifieds are just asking prices. I found the two lowest priced(Marriott) classifieds and negotiated with two sellers. I got one to drop his price by $9,000, and the other to drop his price by $11,000. It's a buyers market and the sellers and their agents know this. There are no bad offers. The worst the sellers can say is no, and then you move on.


----------



## sandesurf (Apr 13, 2009)

LOL!!!

This thread is hilarious! Thanks for the laughs!

We bought from Marriott in 1995. Yes, we've made some great use of our points. With devaluation, those "deals" are getting harder to come by, but I work hard to find them. 
We also bought into a different system, from the developer, and feel we were VERY SUCKERED! 
Since then, we've bought a few resale, and couldn't be more thrilled with the money we've saved. MOC being one of them.
Live and learn, and keep those laughs comming! 
LOL


----------



## pwrshift (Apr 13, 2009)

Trading for points is, at the very least, an option useful in periods of poor health or other reasons. We are all forced to pay Maint/Taxes on our units but if you can't use or rent them, and don't want to trade them, what do you do? That happened to me one year and rather than giving them away I traded 4 weeks for points and increased my cache by 440,000 points ... at a cost of less than $0.0086 per point.

There are some TS in the system where the MF fees amount to more per point than the cost of buying them from Marriott .... such as Hawaii. Paradise has a price and perhaps buying resale has the advantage there.

I need 220,000 a year to replenish what we use and that currently costs about $1898 incl fees ... from trading 2 of my TS (MMC). At the Marriott $0.0125 price per point, buying 220,000 a year would cost $2750 -- but Marriott won't sell you that many! And it's pretty tough to earn 220,000 points every year with your VISA or hotel stays. So I trade 2 TS weeks and use the other 4.

If you own Platinum weeks and your MF is less than $1479 for 110,000 pts, it is still possible to craft a carefully planned air+hotel pkg trip of a lifetime every other year. With some added points from staying in Mariott hotels or using the MarVISA, you can take a wonderful EOY world-class trip for two. It's a personal decision you make before buying, but I sure know that it's been a great benefit for me as soon as my kids grew up and left the nest.

Reward yourself: I bet few people advising advising here to buy resale would pay the price for a business class seat and will jam themselves into a 17" seat for 9 hours to Rome to save money. That's a tough fit for my rear! The cost of economy seats is such that I would not recommend flying economy on points as, in many cases, it takes only 50% more FF points to fly business/first class on a 2 class plane -- where dollar cost of buying Biz Class seats is considerably more - maybe 5x the cost of an economy seat. Hey, you only live once.  Ask DaveM how he enjoyed his flight to Australia. 

Brian


----------



## tombo (Apr 13, 2009)

Like everything else, with a little effort bargains can be found. 

http://www.filife.com/stories/its-easier-than-ever-to-leave-coach

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30013087/


The price difference for first/business class is shrinking and great deals can be found easily. I went to Hawaii first class because the difference was only 25,000 FF miles per r/t ticket. I am going to Aruba first class because the difference was not great. I always look for the cheapest fares in both coach and first class. If the difference is $1000's, I fly coach like I did to hawaii several years ago. When the differences are small I go first class. A deal is a deal and we should all look for the best deals we can find every time and for every purchase. If someone was to walk up to me and offer me $1000 cash to sit in a cramped chair for 8 hours while watching a movie and eating some mediocre food, I would do it in a heartbeat. When I save $1000 on a purchase I was going to make anyway, I made $1000 cash, and I will take the $1000 savings each and very time.


----------



## thinze3 (Apr 13, 2009)

But wait!! You guys are making me feel inferior. United has economy plus with 5" extra leg room. I booked my flights to HI using miles and simply added the extra fee to upgrade the mainland-to-island legs to economy plus.

You don't "have" to fly Business Class to keep from feeling inferior do you?


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 13, 2009)

Personally  I always feel inferior unless I am in First Class


----------



## m61376 (Apr 13, 2009)

Brian-
First- I always love your posts. You truly have mastered the art of maximizing your trade for points value. And, IF Marriott's prices and point incentives were comparable to what they were in the early 2000's when you bought (if I am remembering correctly) then I might agree that buying direct was the best way to go. And I also understand that it is still the only way to accumulate more than 100,000 points per year.

That said, if you consider the point value itself, even though you are paying less per point by trading your relatively low MF MMC weeks than if you bought from Marriott, in all fairness you are also leaving the lost opportunity cost out of the equation. That is, if you hadn't bought the timeshare that you've been trading for those points, you'd be earning close to $1000 in interest a year if that money was invested (of course, if it was in the stock market you could have lost a lot, so you can look at that timeshare purchase as an investment in that case ). So, in reality, those points are costing you about .0177 cants each, more than they cost from Marriott although, as you pointed out, you can get more.

Now that you've already laid out the money for the purchase I can understand your way of thinking, but I think a prospective purchaser needs to consider the loss in investment income as part of the equation in deciding whether or not it is worth it to him/her. They also have to consider that there are few Marriotts that still have MF's in the $800's and, within a few years, I venture to guess none will be. But, even as MF's continue to escalate, that Platinum week will still trade only for 110,000 points, the same as it did the year you bought it. And those 110,000 points will also pay for less of a vacation- Marriott Reward points and FF miles both continue to devaluate over time.  

Also-one more consideration- very few Plat. Marriotts trade for more than the 110,000 area, with a few 125-130K, even if they cost 200-400% more. So the point redemption value really doesn't reflect either the purchase price or the annual MF. Prospective buyers need to not only consider whether buying direct makes sense in general, but also for a specific resort based on the purchase price, the developer versus resale price differential, the annual point value, and the annual MF's. 

If a prospective purchaser understands these costs fully and then decides that buying direct is worth it to experience those rewards which, I agree, most would skimp on if they had to shell out $$'s (I admit I would), then that is a great purchase; he/she will likely enjoy their timeshare for years to come. And that's why I think these posts are so important, because a newcomer can easily gain both vantage points and then make a decision what works best for them. After all, it doesn't matter if it works best for you or for me.

I freely admit if I had been smart enough to get into this when you did, when those great pre-construction deals were to be had, along with hundreds of thousands of incentive points, resale would not hold the same attraction and I think I'd be drooling with envy when I read about your trips, kicking myself for not having followed suit. But prices have been much higher the last few years, with resale prices about what those early pre-construction prices were until recently, when they are even lower at some resorts, MF's are ever escalating and incentive points much, much less.  In today's market I find it hard to justify, but others obviously do.


----------



## KathyPet (Apr 13, 2009)

M61376,  Hold onto your seat now but I do agree with you on buying resale at this point in time.  I do think that all potential purchasers need to be fully informed on the pluses and minuses of both sides of the fence and that neither side should exercise high pressure on anyone looking for information.  I bought my Marriott's when they were playing fast and loose with the incentive points and the point program was much better than it is now.  I feel that I made the absolutely correct choice by buying direct.  However, I would agree that with the increase in Marriott pricing, the reduction in the incentive points and the devaluation of the points program I would have to seriously consider whether the extra cost of direct purchase is worth it at this time.  Should Marriott go back to giving the generous incentives that they have in the past then this opinion is subject to change at any moment.


----------



## thinze3 (Apr 13, 2009)

Or should Marriott do what Starwood does and let you requalify a resale week with the purchase of a developer week?


----------



## Powerguy (Apr 13, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> M61376,  Hold onto your seat now but I do agree with you on buying resale at this point in time.  I do think that all potential purchasers need to be fully informed on the pluses and minuses of both sides of the fence and that neither side should exercise high pressure on anyone looking for information.  I bought my Marriott's when they were playing fast and loose with the incentive points and the point program was much better than it is now.  I feel that I made the absolutely correct choice by buying direct.  However, I would agree that with the increase in Marriott pricing, the reduction in the incentive points and the devaluation of the points program I would have to seriously consider whether the extra cost of direct purchase is worth it at this time.  Should Marriott go back to giving the generous incentives that they have in the past then this opinion is subject to change at any moment.



Statements like this are the real value to others reading this post to help with their decision to purchase a timeshare. I was ready to buy a developer week. Reading posts here on TUG and on Redweek helped me make the personal decision to buy resale.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 13, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> _Use_ The Force, _Tombo.  Use_ The Force.
> 
> -- Yoda.​



That Yoda picture is the biggest picture I have ever seen.  It could be a billboard!  If there is such a thing as gigantic pictures being a form of YELLING the image, then you are obviously breaching message board etiquette rules with that thing.

Where is DaveM?  He needs to reign in this crowd.


----------



## ondeadlin (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm hoping, really hoping, that the last post was tongue-in-cheek.


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 13, 2009)

I want to say to all of you that I have enjoyed this thread very much.  It's gone into much more detail than similar threads in the past and I have learned a lot.  Don't know if I'll ever consider resale because of it (eeesh, unless this form of communication constitutes a written contract because then I'm forced to be in financial cahoots with Tombo,) but I do know that there are enough purchase options available to make everyone happy. 

Even though some points in the thread may have been unwelcome, and others were made in a not-so-nice manner, I still appreciate that everyone had a chance to speak their minds.  Seeing the personalities behind the posts always makes message board reading so much more than a simple collection of bullet points, and takes the discussion from drab and mundane to interesting and entertaining.  Thank you all.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 13, 2009)

*1 Never Know, Do 1 ?*




ondeadlin said:


> I'm hoping, really hoping, that the last post was tongue-in-cheek.


If not, then Yoda is in a heap of trouble. 

Meanwhile, click here for an old TUG-BBS entry featuring another shouting-yelling-hollering huge & jynormous picture (not that there's anything wrong with that). 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ (Apr 13, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> I'm hoping, really hoping, that the last post was tongue-in-cheek.



Oh goodness, that's what I mean about "seeing the personalities..."  Of course!  Of course it's tongue-in-cheek!  In fact it was meant to be uproariously funny and I am shocked! that you're not giving me the ROFL emoticon!

Really, ondeadlin, I am laughing.  Relax.  You can laugh too.


----------



## thinze3 (Apr 13, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Lose my $8,000 in a resale deal gone bad and I'll get all my invisible TUG friends to flood your emailbox.



Hey, when I bought BeachPlace I was walking on needles for a while, as the seller didn't even run the transaction through a title company. Most likely the reason I got it so cheap.  

Anyhow, where's Icydog, she'll tell you all about the terrible things that can happen buying resale.

FWIW - I bought my second Marriott direct and am not ashamed about it at all.


----------



## tombo (Apr 13, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> Hey, when I bought BeachPlace I was walking on needles for a while, as the seller didn't even run the transaction through a title company. Most likely the reason I got it so cheap.
> 
> Anyhow, where's Icydog, she'll tell you all about the terrible things that can happen buying resale.
> 
> FWIW - I bought my second Marriott direct and am not ashamed about it at all.



Let icydog tell you about all of the bad things that can go wrong. I will tell you about how much money you will save resale, and how doing a little research should assure you that everything will go right on your resale purchase. I have purchased over 20 timeshares resale, and all but one have worked out great. The one that didn't was when I was new and didn't research the seller and week because I didn't know any better.

By the way, you did say you were walking on pins and needles, but you also said that is why you got it so CHEAP. So putting aside all of the horror stories and the what if's,the end result is that you OWN it, you bought it RESALE, and you got it CHEAP. Those words are music to my ears.


----------



## m61376 (Apr 14, 2009)

pwrshift said:


> Here's a better bet right now than buying resale or direct.  When MAR stock hit a low couple of months back I bought back in around $12 and it's already up to $19.  Not as nice an increase as my RIM stock (which I bought when Obama told the world he wanted to keep his Blackberry) but these days an increase is an increase.  This is perhaps not the time to by any TS ... but it might be the right time to carefully buy equities.
> 
> Brian



I was thinking about this post this morning, since I was contemplating buying MAR. Anyone have any take on how the earnings will fare when they are announced next week? Any truth to the rumors for a take-over play?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I was wondering if any people here had looked into this. Could be a way to offset those MF's or fund another purchase, whichever way you prefer to buy.


----------



## pwrshift (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks, Tombo, for those links - very interesting stuff, although the situation will probably go back to what it was as soon as we come out of the recession.  I agree, though, check those deals - unfortunately, most of those deals come pretty close to flight time and only if the airline feels there are too many empty business class seats on that flight.  

The airlines have only themselves to blame - raising fares and FF requirements just before the economy tanked - and their business changed dramatically.

On AA an economy seat to Hawaii takes 45k FF miles ... or 75K in business class...a 40% increase.  Yet, published rack prices (not last minute) for business class is a huge hike.  

If the airlines are having problems filling those seats they'd be much better off IMO offering cash seats for the same percentage increase over economy as they do for FF miles and they'd sell out for cash real quick.  

NA to Japan takes only 30% more FF miles than economy, but I'm sure the online difference if paying cash is considerable.  Personally, I wouldn't want to gamble on such a flight that there would be a last minute upgrade deal offer at the gate.

Surprisingly, AA hits their FF user with a 50% increase on NA flights - and the business class seats don't compare to international!

I would certainly pay $1000 more for a 20 hour flight to AU...even to Rome!  Especially if it was a confirmed reservation and not the insecurity of last minute upgrades.

Brian




tombo said:


> Like everything else, with a little effort bargains can be found.
> 
> http://www.filife.com/stories/its-easier-than-ever-to-leave-coach
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30013087/


----------



## pwrshift (Apr 14, 2009)

The purchase incentive point deals are still out there.  Pre-construction Lakeshore to the first 300 buyers was one recent example...and it traded for 130k MR too.  I think you'll see more of these deals as we come close to recession recovery.

However, if you decide on vacation needs based on lost opportunity costs you'd never go on a holiday - not even a weekend away.  And that analysis doesn't recognize the fact the TS always has residual value.  

I wouldn't finance a vacation and feel the same about a TS, prefering to use cash I didn't need for necessities.  Timesharing is like purchasing a pre-paid vacation and forces you to take a holiday every year.  That's really all it is -- not an investment.  

Timeshare ownership, for many, is often something that becomes less important to you after your kids leave the nest and take their own vacations.  For me, the MR program gave me the opportunity to fly in absolute comfort and stay in very expensive hotels that I might not have been able to afford (or want to afford) if paying cash.  It was a way of rewarding myself.

Brian




m61376 said:


> Brian-
> 
> ...I think a prospective purchaser needs to consider the loss in investment income as part of the equation in deciding whether or not it is worth it to him/her. .


----------



## tombo (Apr 14, 2009)

pwrshift said:


> Thanks, Tombo, for those links - very interesting stuff, although the situation will probably go back to what it was as soon as we come out of the recession.  I agree, though, check those deals - unfortunately, most of those deals come pretty close to flight time and only if the airline feels there are too many empty business class seats on that flight.
> 
> 
> I would certainly pay $1000 more for a 20 hour flight to AU...even to Rome!  Especially if it was a confirmed reservation and not the insecurity of last minute upgrades.
> ...



I agree that when the economy improves that there will be fewer deals on Business/first class flights. For now take advantage of the bargains.

A 20 hour flight is one I haven't yet endured. The longest non stop i have been on is 10 hours, so if a 20 hour non stop was looming I would pay considerably more for first class. There would still be a cut off price point where I would opt to fly coach and simply Ambien myself into first class dreams.

For a 6 to 10 hour flight, no way that I would pay $1000 more one way for first class. I am pragmatic. If you work an 8 hour day, 5 days a week, then $1000 flight upgrade is a lot more than most people get paid for an 8 hour work day. I don't make $1000 take home each day and my work day is much harder than sitting 10 hours in coach watching movies, eating mediocre meals,napping, and being served beers. Heck if anyone knows of a job that pays $1000 a day take home for flying coach an average of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, please tell me where i can send my resume because i will gladly take that job.

 On the other hand, if you do get paid $1000 or more take home pay every day, then you are taking home $260,000 a year after taxes. That would be $475,000 or so gross annual income. If I made that much my outlook might be different. 

The end result is that it doesn't matter whether I fly first class or coach as far as the actual flight itself. I still leave the terminal at the same time on the same plane, and I pick up my luggage at my destination at the same time whether I fly coach or first class. First class passengers are on the plane for the same amount of flight time as coach passengers.  If I can save $2000 or more r/t for 2 by flying coach, I have paid for my rental car, many meals, some souveniers, and several tours or sightseeing excursions for simply being a little more cramped for 8 hours or so. If I was taking home $250,000 a year I still doubt that I would still spend that much more for a little comfort and leg room (and I am 6'2'', 250). It is obvious that most flyers feel that first/business is not worth the extra expense since there are 350 coach seats and only 65 first class seats on  Delta 747's from Atlanta to Hawaii (which is a 9 hour and 15 minute flight). 

 I do appreciate the first/business folks paying those high fares because I have always read that those high dollar seats up front subsidize my bargain seats in the back of the plane. I would be happy if the airlines charged the first/business people even more for that luxury, gave them 2 more inches of leg room, and dropped the price of my coach tickets even lower. Heck I'll bring my own meal on board if it will drop the price of my ticket $25 each way. If they would let me I would bring a cooler iced down with beer to drink on the flight. 

I have never been on a flight that was so much fun that I would pay to take a "flight to nowhere" just for the joy of flying, and that includes flights I have taken in both business class and flights in first class. The flight is just not part of the "vacation fun" to me, it is simply the way I get to my vacation. I fly because I want to get to my vacation destination as quickly and as cheaply as possible so the fun and relaxation can actually begin.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Apr 15, 2009)

*Resale Eagle.*



> Resale Hawks? Shux, We're More Like Resale Screaming Eagles.






-- hotlinked -- ​
-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ​


----------

