# Thinking of buying



## Beckie467 (Nov 5, 2011)

Hey everyone!

So I've been doing some research on buying a timeshare and have been directed to look into Marriot based off of the type of traveling that I do.  I've been trying to get as much info as I can but feel I'm still kind of confused on Marriots system.  When I go to the website, it appears they are set up on a point system but when I look at buying resale they are talking about buying certain weeks.  Do you use your points like the DVC does (so many points per week you want to stay) or are you locked into traveling a certain week/weeks out of the year?  

Also, how easy is it for you to use the timeshare and trade for other destinations?  I more than likely won't be at my home resort every year (my husband and I love to travel around and would love to have the option of going to Europe etc. in the future.)  

Any thoughts/ideas would be greatly appreciated!


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## Pompey Family (Nov 5, 2011)

We're relatively new at the timeshare business however after a couple of years of trying out the system we're beginning to figure it out.

We initially bought a platinum Harbour Lake after being wooed by the rep at Son Antem.  So far we've traded it for Fairway Villas and Paris quite easily.  Next year we wanted to trade to Hilton Head but it would seem that this is not a feasible trade so we're going to stay at our home resort.

It soon became apparent that trading is not as easy as the rep made it out to be.  We were under the impression that it would be a simple process to trade our Harbour Lake week for somewhere else that we fancied.  However, being tied to school holidays the trade choices are very limited.  So far we haven't found any in Europe using our Harbour Lake week and that includes the real basic resorts.  We simply can't afford to spend every year in Orlando and frankly we wouldn't want to.

We therefore made the decision to buy a resale week at Playa Andaluza.  It's a resort that we love and would be quite happy to stay there every year if the trade did not come through.  As it's a beach resort and a rare European one then the trading value should be stronger than our Harbour Lake week despite it being a gold season.  It was more expensive than some of the other resorts however the price reflects the demand and trade value.

My advice would be to buy a resale at a Marriott where you would be happy to stay at should a trade not come through and ideally one that has a beach location.  Think Hilton Head, Newport Coast, Aruba and Hawaii.  The ski resorts are quite popular as well.

I'm not interested in the points system so someone else would be better placed to advise you on your options there.


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## EKniager (Nov 5, 2011)

A)  Buy at a resort you will use.
B)  Buy on the secondary market, i.e., resale from a current owner.  eBay is typically, but not always the lowest price route.
C)  Buy a Platinum or Platinum Plus week.  These are the most desireable weeks in each location.  They trade best but more importantly rent for the most money.  Go to RedWeek and look at the rental market as well as the supply of "For Sale" and "For Rent" properties.
D)  Buy something that rents for at least 2x the Maintenance Fees.
E)  Don't trade a $3,000 per week location for a $1,200 per week.  Rent yours out and take the proceeds to rent the lower cost location and apply the residual towards your MF's.
F)  Buy a "lockoff" unit.  You won't always have additional family members or friends to travel with you and you will be able to turn your one week into two and amortize your MF's over 14 days versus 7.
G)  Not a must, but if you buy something you can drive to, you can take a fabulous vacation without the additional cost of flights and rental car.  This is a nice idea for a 2nd or 3rd purchase.
H)  Buy at the end of the year, like right now, as folks give theirs away to avoid paying next year's MF's which are due in January.

If I think of anything else after having a coffee, I'll post again!


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## m61376 (Nov 5, 2011)

I'll try first to address your questions about weeks versus points- until a year and a half ago Marriott was exclusively a weeks based system. Owners bought weeks in a season which enabled them to reserve one week 12 months out (13 months if booking consecutive or contiguous weeks) at the resort and during the season (time period) they bought into. A few resorts had some weeks that were fixed weeks, and at many resorts there are Platinum Plus weeks, which are holiday weeks and owners are guaranteed a holiday week reservation. Last year they introduced a point system, and now at most locations are exclusively selling points.

Past owners could buy into the point system (called the DC for destination club) and trade their weeks in for points on a yearly basis. The problem for many is that, while the point system offers flexibility (the ability to reserve location and view and in timeframes other than only 7 days), most owners of legacy weeks suffer a skim, in that fewer points are allotted than are required to make a reservation using points at their owned property. While they can still use their week to reserve at their home resort, it means that they don't have enough points to book the equivalent week elsewhere. There are many posts about the pluses and minuses of point ownership and conversion that you can search for if you are interested.

If you buy today from Marriott in the US you can only buy points. If you buy in Spain or France they are still selling weeks, and in Asia they have yet another point system. The Caribbean resorts have yet to be fully integrated into the point system, and while you can reserve weeks there in points, at least in Aruba you can buy either weeks or points. Aruba is one of the last hold-outs where Marriott is still selling weeks that are eligible for membership in the DC. IF you are interested in Aruba and IF you really want to buy direct from Marriott, buying a week there and joining the DC is considerably less costly than buying the equivalent number of points. While in general I've always advised people to take their time and that the same deal will be there tomorrow, this is one almost loophole that IF you are interested in it I'd recommend exploring sooner rather than later. While (in my opinion, of course) Aruba was allocated fewer points than the high rental market (both external and on Marriott.com) might otherwise suggest that it should be allocated, buying a developer week there now, with the discounts being offered by Marriott, is a relative bargain wrt the purchase price to point value ratio; what I mean that it is cheaper to buy a week there and convert it to points than to buy the equivalent number of points from Marriott, with savings in excess of 10K.

That said, while others will disagree, as a new buyer I'd have a very hard time buying points from Marriott today for several reasons:
-high cost per point and high MF per point
-no "home resort" ownership or advantage (unlike Starwood or DVC, you don't get a first crack at reserving a week in the resort you chose to go to most frequently. So if you have a preference for a particular area, you are competing with everyone else for those reservations)
-point values can change. Whether they will is anyone's guess.
-most inventory today was already sold as weeks. That means that week owners must deposit those weeks for them to be available for point reservations. So, even if you buy enough points for a New Year's week at a Caribbean resort, for example, it doesn't mean that there will be any such weeks available for you to reserve. Remember- everything is subject to availability, and as a points owner you are not guaranteed any specific availability.
-there is no way for resale points to join the DC, so that if you buy and need to sell, what you own is basically worthless.

If you tend to travel off season, however, points go a lot further and you might find the system works to your advantage, depending upon hen and where you like to travel. Others love the ability to reserve more- or less- than 7 days, like the ability to guarantee their view (which otherwise is subject to luck when trading in II), and like the ease of calling and making a reservation rather than looking for a trade.

In general, as posted above, trading using a lock-off gives the most bang for the buck, especially if you are taking advantage of depressed resale prices today. IF there is a place you'd like to visit at least half the time, then buying a week there may make sense for you. The other years you can trade or rent, especially if you buy in a popular location and reserve a high demand week. As posted above, Plat. weeks generally are the best traders and renters, but Gold weeks at some resorts fare better than Plat. weeks at other resorts, so it depends upon where you buy. For example, Aruba is really a year round destination, and Aruba Gold weeks trade as well as many and better than other Plat. weeks, and command a higher rent than many Plat. weeks elsewhere. If you want to go to Aruba during the summer, then you should buy a Gold week there, and not be pigeon-holed into only buying Platinum. Similarly, if you like to golf in Hilton Head, then maybe a Gold week would work better for you than a Plat. week. Depending on where and when you like to travel, one season or another may fill your needs better, and sometimes that offsets the possible decreased trading value.

While personally I would only buy resale weeks at this point, and if I really wanted the flexibility of the DC I would buy a developer week in Aruba that still gave me that option, so I am not trying to be negative about buying resale by any means, I just want to make sure you understand that as of today any week bought on the resale market cannot be enrolled in the DC (for that matter, resale points cannot be enrolled in the DC either, making them almost worthless). Many people feel that, at some point in the future, Marriott will again welcome resale weeks into the program, but that may be many years down the road, if it ever happens. 

One more comment- you mention European trips- timeshares can be great for repeat visitors to European destinations, but there are few timeshares in world capitals, so first time visitors are usually best served by hotels and not in staying at locations that may be an hour or so commute from all the major sites. However, many have had amazing European vacations in timeshares in general, and of course Marriott's Costa del Sol properties, their Thailand properties and, perhaps to a lesser degree, their property in France have gotten rave reviews.

Good luck, and welcome to Tug! 

btw- I see from your other posts that you are in your twenties. I can tell you that we wish that we had discovered timesharing before our "kids" were in their early twenties. It is wonderfully conducive to family vacations, and having the space- and the kitchen- really enhances your vacation. We travelled all over in hotel rooms with my parents while the kids were growing up; if only we had known what we were missing. This is a great time for you to buy and have many years of enjoyment. For now, it is a great way to consider traveling with friends and later with family and/or friends. Keep in mind, though, that needs change, and while you don't need school schedules now, in the future you may be saddled with them for decades. So keep that in mind when tailoring a purchase to your needs- think about now, 5 years and even 10 years down the road, as hard as that might seem.


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## pwrshift (Nov 5, 2011)

Trading is only easier if you have complete flexibility in when and where you can go.  I wouldn't buy right now unless it was an eBay sale for less than $2000 platinum at a resort that you'd be happy going to every year for the rest of time, and one where annual fees and travel costs doubling in 5 years wouldn't bother you.  Rent...in most cases these days owners will rent just to cover their maintenance.  Don't buy into Marriott's new point system...it's way too expensive compared to resales and destined to fail or be sold to Westgate IMO.


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## suenmike32 (Nov 5, 2011)

m61376,
while its true that virtually all presentations are geared to the purchase of points. Couldn't a new prospect at a presentation "insist" on purchasing a "week" at a presentation?
What ever happened to all those weeks that are on that long, long list that Marriott promised to sell for owners (ears back), should they become disinterested or unable to travel. 
THAT resale option offered by Marriott seems to have disintegrated.
 None the less....there are people on a resale list for years and Marriott seemingly pushes the point system instead of keeping the promises that they originally made. 
I can tell by the number of posts and the factual information you  provided above, that you are very savvy to the system.
What are your thoughts on insisting to buy a week instead of points?
Thanks,
Mike


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## ilene13 (Nov 5, 2011)

We bought our first timeshare in 1980 when our eldest child was 6 months old.  At the time we bought 2 fixed weeks in the Bahamas.  We bought with the thought of guaranteed vacations.  Within 5 years we had bought 2 more weeks, one in Hilton Head and one in Kissimmee.  We also sold our weeks in the Bahamas as we were mugged there.  From 1980 to 1990 we exchanged all over the US, the Caribbean and Europe.  Marriott then took over the management of our Hilton Head property.  Then we became founding owners at the Grande Ocean in HH. In those days, Marriott gave us a buying bonus of a trip for 2 anywhere in the contiguous US or Mexico.  So we went to Mexico and proceeded to buy a week at the Royal Caribbean.  As the 1990's moved on we bought and sold many timeshares.  At one point we owned a high of 10 weeks, but now we are down to 7 weeks.  

Our current weeks are at resorts where we love to go, Aruba, Cancun and Hiltn Head.  We own only platinum (Marriott) weeks or high season weeks (Royal Resorts). I have to travel high season as I am a high school assistant principal.  Recently we have not done as much exchanging as we did years ago--I think that is because we love our home resorts and we've become complacent.  

We did not join the Marriott Destination Points program as it would not make sense for us.  Our Marriott properties are not lock-offs, we would have to have a second II account for our Royal Resort Properties, and we only travel high season when the points would be at the their highest.  Although we would have about 14,000 points if we joined it would not give us 4 weeks at the resorts we would want to go to at high season.  Joining DP is definitely is based on individual needs and you would really have to think about it.

Timesharing is a wonderful experience if you consider it a guaranteed vacation and not an investment.  As our children grew it has been wonderful to have the room to move around and not be stuck in a hotel room.  We own a 3 bedroom unit at Surfwatch in HH and now that we have a grandchild it is wonderful to have space for everyone.

As the previous poster stated I would only purchase a resale.  Whether or not you buy platinum or gold is definitely a personal decision.  Whatever you do, good luck and welcome to TUG and timesharing.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 5, 2011)

good morning...

m6...

a superb summary...resale points are even worse... you can't join DC AND you can only make Trust based reservations within 60 days... Thus there is no access to exchange company and Trust inventory is also limited...

There is a website out there somewhere in TUG land where you can pick up a resale week from MVCD AND they have just opened these up to DC eligibility....

I love have the option of using weeks as weeks or as points..... I took 1 3 bedroom plat GV week in Orlando (3 bedroom) and converted into TWO concurrent 5 day stays at Mountainside in ski season withthe same nnumber of points for the BIG ski trip...!!!!  I used to trade one week at GV for a Park City plat week...  21 bedroom day (7 times 30 for 14 ( 7 times 2).  With points I convert 21 bedroom days in Orlando into 2 ( 5 times 2 twice) bedroom days at a ski resort and I have 10 people going!!!

No need to purchase more points..My next purchase will bne a cheap 2 bedroom lock off in Florida (driving distance) to either use or play Flexchange with both halves...

One benefit of DC is now superb inventory is hitting II within 30 days  as DC releases inventory late!!!!


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## m61376 (Nov 5, 2011)

suenmike32 said:


> m61376,
> while its true that virtually all presentations are geared to the purchase of points. Couldn't a new prospect at a presentation "insist" on purchasing a "week" at a presentation?
> What ever happened to all those weeks that are on that long, long list that Marriott promised to sell for owners (ears back), should they become disinterested or unable to travel.
> THAT resale option offered by Marriott seems to have disintegrated.
> ...



Mike- As Puck alluded to, there is a website that lists Marriott resale weeks and in a recent change it seems that these are eligible to join the DC. However, before I bought such a week from Marriott (IF I was interested in such a purchase, which I wouldn't be- I agree with the other posters about buying resale now) I would make sure I got it in writing that the week could be enrolled in the DC program. The only way I could rationalize buying directly from Marriott at this point is if I bought a week that I wanted to go to frequently that could be enrolled in the DC, IF I really thought that I would utilize the point system and if I was willing to pay the premium for doing so.

Personally, though, I would only consider buying a resale week if there was a place I wanted to go frequently, and then I'd buy the resale week on the resale market and save thousands of dollars.

As for whether or not to buy anything- you'll hear arguments on both sides today. In many cases you can get great bargains on rentals, but as the economy improves and demand increases, that may change. Moreover, the market in general may improve over time, and as hotel prices creep upwards, resale prices may as well. I like owning- having something prepaid means I use it, so in a sense it forces us to take time away. I happen to really love my home resort, so for us it is like owning a piece of a vacation home away from home. We truly have had priceless memories from using that week as well as buying a Getaway; our family has had some real tragedies the past few years and the vacations that we would not have otherwise taken have provided irreplaceable memories. I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that circumstances have perhaps really tipped the scales in favor of ownership for me, but I can honestly say if I had to do it over again I'd only have done one thing differently- that is, I would have bought sooner, even if if (gulp) meant buying direct (of course, at pre-construction pricing though- I'm not going that far overboard :rofl: ).


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## kjd (Nov 6, 2011)

A lot of good advice preceeds this so I won't repeat it.  Here are two opinions of mine.  1)  Don't fall for the "renting is cheaper" arguement if you see yourself as a long term timeshare user.  The standard usually used is that renting is cheaper than maintenance fees.  On a one time basis that may be true.  If you buy a lockoff and trade with two weeks it's usually never true.  There is also no guarantee that rental rates will always be as depressed as they are now.  No one can make that claim for the future.

2)  Right now if you buy resale there is no entrance to the DC.  Prices are depressed because of it and the seasonal reduction is also in effect as owners try to bail out of 2012 maintenance fees.  It's a good time to buy for the long term user and trader.  Marriott is not doing much in the way of ROFR.  They have their own problems.  If your not a long term timeshare user stay out of the market.


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## m61376 (Nov 6, 2011)

kjd- Good points!! The only other thing I'd like to add is that, since one should be buying a timeshare for long term use, it is important to think about changing family dynamics. I know it sounds obvious, but many people think about current needs. The need for Holiday weeks may or may not change; school vacation schedules may be forthcoming or soon a thing of the past. With adult children 3BR's may become more attractive. Disney may (or may not) lose its luster. So I think buyers should think about how their situation may change at least over the next 5 years, and perhaps even 10 years.


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## bogey21 (Nov 6, 2011)

I would not buy a non-fixed Marriott Week until this whole DC thing settles down and you know for cerainty what you are getting.

George


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## funtime (Nov 6, 2011)

pwrshift said:


> Trading is only easier if you have complete flexibility in when and where you can go.  I wouldn't buy right now unless it was an eBay sale for less than $2000 platinum at a resort that you'd be happy going to every year for the rest of time



What you have not indicated is whether you are on a beer budget or a champagne budget.  Buying a week membership now on ebay is a beer budget opportunity and one I can get behind.  However, I do not see many primo platinum weeks for $2000 that is a little unrealistic.  However, you can get a gold Marriott for that price or even less on ebay (always include closing costs which are often 650) and have a lot of fun getting great trades.  I would also recommend only buying  a lockoff unit.  For example we have  gold (summer week) Marriott Summit Watch weeks that trade like tigers.  Long story short - if you are spending 2,000 or less, why worry about your needs 20 years from now - that is advice more pertinent to shelling out 25,000.  Just go on ebay, type in Marriott and go shopping for a gold lockoff that you think you would enjoy.  Funtime


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## pwrshift (Nov 6, 2011)

Gold weeks in many resorts are a waste IMO...the annual annually increasing MF's are almost the same cost as platinum but gold weeks are often useless for 'families with kids' due to restricted holiday times considered 'prime' time.  And in 20 years the MF costs could be $5000 a week and we wont even be able to give them away.

There have been many platinum weeks sold on eBay over the last year for less than $2000 as you can find on earlier threads?  Such as...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARRIOTTS-M...10761659242?pt=Timeshares&hash=item19c9e8cb6a


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## Lardan (Nov 9, 2011)

I know many people post here about renting being the way to go so I watched this for awhile on several sites.  What I found was a resort I wanted to go to at a specific time wasn't available or a couple of times I did it wasn't cheaper than the MFs.

Renting, like someone else posted, may be okay for a one time shot if you are lucky enough to find the resort you want with the correct dates, but I don't think it will work long term.


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## OldPantry (Nov 9, 2011)

Lardan said:


> I know many people post here about renting being the way to go so I watched this for awhile on several sites.  What I found was a resort I wanted to go to at a specific time wasn't available or a couple of times I did it wasn't cheaper than the MFs.
> 
> Renting, like someone else posted, may be okay for a one time shot if you are lucky enough to find the resort you want with the correct dates, but I don't think it will work long term.



Well, I think you have some unrealistic expectations here.  Your complaint seems to be that people trying to rent won't subsidize your vacation.  Why would anyone rent for less than it costs them, unless they have no choice? I haven't read any credible posts suggesting you could expect to rent for less than maintenance fees.  The real comparison should be with Marriott listings.  When you do that, then the advantages of third-party rentals jump out.
Furthermore, even if you do pay more than maintenance fees alone, the renter may still be subsidizing your vacation, as he/she has many additional "hidden" expenses to absorb.  These include loss of income on the hefty amounts "invested" in their timeshare (usually purchased retail from the developer), interest payments if the purchase was financed,  and even more hefty losses on the value of those timeshares as reflected in the resale world.  In most cases, from what I've seen, rentals via TUG and Redweek represent outstanding value.  

As to availability, that varies widely from resort to resort.  Places like Ko Olina, Maui, Newport and many others have LONG lists of offerings.  Yes, you need some flexibility, but even owners often have to practice that virtue.


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## Ron98GT (Nov 9, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, I think you have some unrealistic expectations here.  Your complaint seems to be that people trying to rent won't subsidize your vacation.  Why would anyone rent for less than it costs them, unless they have no choice? I haven't read any credible posts suggesting you could expect to rent for less than maintenance fees.  The real comparison should be with Marriott listings.  When you do that, then the advantages of third-party rentals jump out.
> Furthermore, even if you do pay more than maintenance fees alone, the renter may still be subsidizing your vacation, as he/she has many additional "hidden" expenses to absorb.  These include loss of income on the hefty amounts "invested" in their timeshare (usually purchased retail from the developer), interest payments if the purchase was financed,  and even more hefty losses on the value of those timeshares as reflected in the resale world.  In most cases, from what I've seen, rentals via TUG and Redweek represent outstanding value.
> 
> As to availability, that varies widely from resort to resort.  Places like Ko Olina, Maui, Newport and many others have LONG lists of offerings.  Yes, you need some flexibility, but even owners often have to practice that virtue.



   I think the poster was just stating why owning a TS works for him instead of renting.  His MF is less than or equal what a rental would be.  He has more availabilty owning versus renting.


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## timeos2 (Nov 9, 2011)

pwrshift said:


> Trading is only easier if you have complete flexibility in when and where you can go.  I wouldn't buy right now unless it was an eBay sale for less than $2000 platinum at a resort that you'd be happy going to every year for the rest of time, and one where annual fees and travel costs doubling in 5 years wouldn't bother you.  Rent...in most cases these days owners will rent just to cover their maintenance.  Don't buy into Marriott's new point system...it's way too expensive compared to resales and destined to fail or be sold to Westgate IMO.



Perfect summary of where things stand today in timeshare.


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## Beefnot (Nov 9, 2011)

EKniager said:


> A)  Buy at a resort you will use.
> B)  Buy on the secondary market, i.e., resale from a current owner.  eBay is typically, but not always the lowest price route.
> C)  Buy a Platinum or Platinum Plus week.  These are the most desireable weeks in each location.  They trade best but more importantly rent for the most money.  Go to RedWeek and look at the rental market as well as the supply of "For Sale" and "For Rent" properties.
> D)  Buy something that rents for at least 2x the Maintenance Fees.
> ...



A) and B) CHECK.  My silver Shadow Ridge just passed ROFR, so if all goes well, in a few weeks I'll be good to go.  
C) Eh, I've got kids and summer is the best time for us.  Don't mind the heat.  Plus when I can get a silver for week for next to nothing, and assuming Marriott trades fairly well on II anyway regardless of week, I'm fine.
D) Prob not happening with summer Palm Desert but no worries.
E) Noted
F) CHECK
G) CHECK
H) CHECK

After reading several threads here on TUB, I don't care about this whole DC points crap at all.


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## Lardan (Nov 9, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, I think you have some unrealistic expectations here.  Your complaint seems to be that people trying to rent won't subsidize your vacation.  Why would anyone rent for less than it costs them, unless they have no choice? I haven't read any credible posts suggesting you could expect to rent for less than maintenance fees.  The real comparison should be with Marriott listings.  When you do that, then the advantages of third-party rentals jump out.
> Furthermore, even if you do pay more than maintenance fees alone, the renter may still be subsidizing your vacation, as he/she has many additional "hidden" expenses to absorb.  These include loss of income on the hefty amounts "invested" in their timeshare (usually purchased retail from the developer), interest payments if the purchase was financed,  and even more hefty losses on the value of those timeshares as reflected in the resale world.  In most cases, from what I've seen, rentals via TUG and Redweek represent outstanding value.
> 
> As to availability, that varies widely from resort to resort.  Places like Ko Olina, Maui, Newport and many others have LONG lists of offerings.  Yes, you need some flexibility, but even owners often have to practice that virtue.



I think you took wrong what I said. First, I have seen numerous posts where people have said one could usually rent cheaper than the MFs are. I never said that, but I found after checking it was not true. Read my post again. As far as being flexible I was comparing these checks to my resorts at the times I had reservations at my 0wn resorts.

I wasn't complaining about anything only comparing what I have found comparing renting to owning. Owning works for me and I don't expect anyone to subsidize my vacations.


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## EducatedConsumer (Nov 9, 2011)

My personal opinion, is DON'T BUY........RENT.

Many timeshares have become liabilities and not assets, and I believe that the whole financial model that once made Marriott timeshare attractive, has now blown-up (in many circumstances).

Not to suggest that you won't enjoy great vacations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts, and I think you will. But rather than tie your money up with something in which the future benefits/ liabilities are highly uncertain, I'd suggest that you consider renting.


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## Lardan (Nov 9, 2011)

Lardan said:


> I think you took wrong what I said. First, I have seen numerous posts where people have said one could usually rent cheaper than the MFs are. I never said this was true, and I found after checking it wasn't. Read my post again. As far as being flexible I was comparing these checks to my resorts at the times I had reservations at my own resorts. I really don't expect anyone to subsidize my vacations.
> 
> Sorry my bad, this got posted twice.


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## timeos2 (Nov 9, 2011)

Ron98GT said:


> I think the poster was just stating why owning a TS works for him instead of renting.  His MF is less than or equal what a rental would be.  He has more availabilty owning versus renting.



And he has upfront money - and an obligation to fees every use year - a renter doesn't with no easy out.  IF it is for use only - maybe an occasional rent out/trade as in once in 5 years - and at a place they MUST go each use period then maybe it's a value. Otherwise, unfortunately, the vast majority of timeshares are millstones not assets.  Over development and unrealistic retail prices with no resale market have led us to this unfortunate spot.


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## EKniager (Nov 9, 2011)

EducatedConsumer said:


> My personal opinion, is DON'T BUY........RENT.
> 
> Many timeshares have become liabilities and not assets, and I believe that the whole financial model that once made Marriott timeshare attractive, has now blown-up (in many circumstances).
> 
> Not to suggest that you won't enjoy great vacations at Marriott Vacation Club resorts, and I think you will. But rather than tie your money up with something in which the future benefits/ liabilities are highly uncertain, I'd suggest that you consider renting.



Don't buy a bad timeshare.  Buy a profitable timeshare.  There are plenty and an educated consumer knows where to find them.

Can you promise me that I'll be able to rent a 2-bedroom condo with a beautiful view on HHI Memorial Day week for $1,100 (add 3% per year if you'd like) 10 years from now?  If you can get it for essentially the transfer cost why is that a bad financial deal?

Just be smart about your purchase.


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## timeos2 (Nov 9, 2011)

EKniager said:


> Don't buy a bad timeshare.  Buy a profitable timeshare.  There are plenty and an educated consumer knows where to find them.
> 
> Can you promise me that I'll be able to rent a 2-bedroom condo with a beautiful view on HHI Memorial Day week for $1,100 (add 3% per year if you'd like) 10 years from now?  If you can get it for essentially the transfer cost why is that a bad financial deal?
> 
> Just be smart about your purchase.



guaranteed you will have far less spent and hold no future obligations if you rent over the next ten + years. And you can reliably rent the dates & view you want. Only if you want a particular unit & are willing to pay more to have it should you buy. And I'd want an owner controlled Association  as the developer run ones treat them as guaranteed profit centers.  No control is a bad way to own.

Do you need an address to send the implied bet to?


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## OldPantry (Nov 9, 2011)

Lardan said:


> I think you took wrong what I said. First, I have seen numerous posts where people have said one could usually rent cheaper than the MFs are. I never said that, but I found after checking it was not true. Read my post again. As far as being flexible I was comparing these checks to my resorts at the times I had reservations at my 0wn resorts.
> 
> I wasn't complaining about anything only comparing what I have found comparing renting to owning. Owning works for me and I don't expect anyone to subsidize my vacations.


Fair enough.  Still, have you included ALL the costs of your timeshare ownership when you conclude that renting is an inferior option?  I own a couple of timeshares myself, and enjoy them thoroughly.  But, they are, analyzed realistically, extremely expensive.


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## OldPantry (Nov 9, 2011)

EKniager said:


> Don't buy a bad timeshare.  Buy a profitable timeshare.  There are plenty and an educated consumer knows where to find them.
> 
> Can you promise me that I'll be able to rent a 2-bedroom condo with a beautiful view on HHI Memorial Day week for $1,100 (add 3% per year if you'd like) 10 years from now?  If you can get it for essentially the transfer cost why is that a bad financial deal?
> 
> Just be smart about your purchase.



Well, I've been toying with this idea recently.  I'd considered buying a bunch of timeshares on the resale market and using them to generate a nice income stream.  For example, I saw a 1BR ski platinum week from Timber Lodge available for $5900.  That sounded choice: pay about $800/year in maintenance, and rent it out for up to $1400 (as advertised on Redweek).  Do that, then repeat till rich.

Then a dose of reality: 

1. That $1400 is more like a best case price (aside from the super-platinum Christmas weeks, which cost vastly more to purchase).  I see other winter weeks available for $1100-1200, and those are merely asking prices.  Maybe you end up renting for $1000.  2. There is opportunity cost in the purchase (roughly $6500 with closing costs, which would earn at least 5% if directed to another investment like bonds).  Call that $325/year.  3. Add in county taxes, at least $125.  Now that $1400 rental looks less enticing.   Sure, it might be a a bit over a 5% return on your investment, but with lots of risk and aggravation.  I wouldn't think of owning for rental without a reliable return of 10% or more on the initial investment.  With steadily rising maintenance fees, I really wonder whether the game of timeshare rental as an investment will ever work.  Is anybody out there really making good money, once all the true costs are factored in?  If so, PLEASE, let me know how you're doing it?  Denise?


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## EKniager (Nov 10, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, I've been toying with this idea recently.  I'd considered buying a bunch of timeshares on the resale market and using them to generate a nice income stream.  For example, I saw a 1BR ski platinum week from Timber Lodge available for $5900.  That sounded choice: pay about $800/year in maintenance, and rent it out for up to $1400 (as advertised on Redweek).  Do that, then repeat till rich.
> 
> Then a dose of reality:
> 
> 1. That $1400 is more like a best case price (aside from the super-platinum Christmas weeks, which cost vastly more to purchase).  I see other winter weeks available for $1100-1200, and those are merely asking prices.  Maybe you end up renting for $1000.  2. There is opportunity cost in the purchase (roughly $6500 with closing costs, which would earn at least 5% if directed to another investment like bonds).  Call that $325/year.  3. Add in county taxes, at least $125.  Now that $1400 rental looks less enticing.   Sure, it might be a a bit over a 5% return on your investment, but with lots of risk and aggravation.  I wouldn't think of owning for rental without a reliable return of 10% or more on the initial investment.  With steadily rising maintenance fees, I really wonder whether the game of timeshare rental as an investment will ever work.  Is anybody out there really making good money, once all the true costs are factored in?  If so, PLEASE, let me know how you're doing it?  Denise?



Find one that really rents for >$2,500 with $1,100 MFs, i.e. Aruba.  

No.  Eric.


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## Pens_Fan (Nov 10, 2011)

EKniager said:


> Find one that really rents for >$2,500 with $1,100 MFs, i.e. Aruba.
> 
> No.  Eric.



Aruba's MF are now close to $1400.


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## Lardan (Nov 10, 2011)

I suppose there are many here that have thought about buying a "bunch" of weeks, renting them out, and making some money.  To me the ROI is just not there to take the risk and put-up with the headaches.

I read  there are exceptions with Aruba the one I read about the most often. Even so, to pay out the money to get started is way too risky for me.


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## kjd (Nov 10, 2011)

The true speculator would buy "a bunch of weeks" at a cheap price (Which can be done); then rent the weeks at a profit over the maintenance fees (which can also be done) and then sell out at a much higher price. The speculator reaps their biggest profit at the end or they would not make the investment.

The fool would buy "a bunch of weeks" at a cheap price; rent the weeks with no guarantee that the rentals would cover the maintenance fees in the future; and then sell the weeks in the future for less than what they paid for them.  (A very likely possibility)

No one can guarantee that rental rates or prices will go up. In fact, both are likely to go down in the future.  Marriott would have hung on to their timeshare business if they thought that the timeshare market was headed up in the future.  The spinoff is Marriott's answer to limiting their future exposure to a declining timeshare market while continuing to collect fees.


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## kds4 (Nov 10, 2011)

Beckie467 said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> So I've been doing some research on buying a timeshare and have been directed to look into Marriot based off of the type of traveling that I do.  I've been trying to get as much info as I can but feel I'm still kind of confused on Marriots system.  When I go to the website, it appears they are set up on a point system but when I look at buying resale they are talking about buying certain weeks.  Do you use your points like the DVC does (so many points per week you want to stay) or are you locked into traveling a certain week/weeks out of the year?
> 
> ...



Good for you for considering timeshare ownership. While there are many more folks on TUG who are more knowledgeable about this topic than I am, I can tell you my experiences with Marriott, and more especially as a Marriott timeshare owner. My family had a non-Marriott timeshare in Florida when I was growing up (decades ago). Back then, you owned a fixed week (Christmas to New Years for us). You could not change your week to another time of year and you could not exchange your week to go anywhere else. Nevertheless, I have many great memories from those annual trips with my parents and siblings. 

Flash forward to 2008. We received a random phone call from a Marriott representative offering us a preview package to come to Orlando for 4 days/3 nights for $199. All we had to do is sit through a 90 minute timeshare presentation. We had been planning on taking our young kids to Orlando and they were just old enough that we thought they would enjoy it. Also, I have been a long-term patron/member of Marriott Hotels and their Marriott Rewards program when I travel. (This is significant later.) 

So, we did the presentation in January of 2009 and stayed at Marriott Harbour Lake (then Horizons). We did the sales center presentation and got the official chauffered golf cart tour of Grande Vista. We liked everything we heard and knew we were interested in a 3BR lock-off unit. (This is also significant later.) 

Then we got to the numbers. $36,000 for a 3BR Lock-Off in Gold Season.  

Needless to say, we did not make a purchase. However, the seed was planted and I immediately began to explore the resale market. While I had been an active Ebay user for some time, and saw many purchase opportunities available, I wasn't confident enough to make a real estate purchase that way and moved on to studying timeshare resale websites.  

They are easy to find with a key word search on Google, and I eventually found a site that had promising listings for Grande Vista, which is what we had settled on as our target. While we loved the kid friendly atmosphere at Harbour Lake, we were committed to a 3BR unit and Harbour Lake only goes up to 2BR units. We knew we would be making many trips to Disney over the next several years. We knew we wanted a 3BR Lock-Off (which most Marriott timeshare resorts offer up to 2BR only, and many do not Lock-Off), and Grande Vista and Harbour Lake were known quantities to us (having stayed/visited them as opposed to other unseen Marriott locations).  

I eventually located a Grande Vista 3BR Platinum Lock-Off with an asking price of $13,000. While this was still a lot to me, it was a lot better than $36,000. The unit was being sold by the owners incident to a divorce. Negotiating through their realtor on the resale website, we settled at $11,500 with them paying closing costs, upcoming maintenance fees, and us getting the current year's usage. All of those concessions added value in reducing our overall purchase cost. We were happy.  

So, how have we used our purchase? 

1. We have used the entire 3BR unit at Marriott Grande Vista with family/friends.
2. We have locked-off our unit into a 2BR and Studio taking separate trips. With kids we have used the 2BR. When it's just she and me, we don't need as much room to make we, so the studio (if not upgraded) is plenty for the 2 of us.  
3. We have locked-off our unit and deposited it with II to exchange. This has enabled us to double our time through locking off. We have even nearly quadrupled our time by using an II benefit called Short-Stay Exchange, where each of our deposits can be split again into trips of up to 6 nights each. Our 3BR has gone from being one 7 night trip, to locking off into two 7 night trips, to be split again into four trips of up to 6 nights each (or 24 nights). That is how you can leverage your timeshare ownership purchase/maintenance fee costs.
4. As Marriott owners we have stayed at Grande Vista, Harbour Lakes, Ocean Watch, and this next year will be exchanging to a resort in the Caribbean on the island of Curacao. :whoopie: 

When Marriott rolled out their points program, we did the presentation, chose to enroll our week, but not to buy additional points. The primary reason we enrolled our week, was to have the added option of being able to exchange our week every other year for 135,000 Marriott Rewards points. Previously, only purchases made through Marriott offered this benefit, but there was a window (which is closed now, but may open again in the future) to gain this benefit for resale weeks. When I do work or other personal travel, we use Marriott Hotels, so this had value for us  

Then, my wife and I got to thinking, we have 2 kids and only 1 week. This is deedable real estate and can pass through our estates to our kids. They struggle with sharing, perhaps we should expand our ownership to have something for each of them.  

This time I was ready to take another look at Ebay. We found a 3BR Lock-Off at Grande Vista that is Gold Season. We bid and won at $1,997. Marriott waived their Right of First Refusal (ROFR) a week ago, and we are moving to closing hopefully by year-end. While not a platinum week, owning a gold week as our second week expands our usage potential by effectively covering the entire calendar of when we might want to visit our home resort without having to try to exchange between seasons. While the gold week will not be enrolled in the Marriott points program, and cannot be exchanged for Marriott Rewards points every other year, like our Platinum week can; we know we can always swap our Platinum for points, and have our Gold week for usage that year. Buying this second unit as inexpensively as we have, also reduces our average purchase cost per week. (I won't get into the relative values of Gold versus Platinum, because they are just that - relative).

If there is anything I am trying to get across to you by all of this, it is that there are a lot of ways to use a Marriott timeshare. The more options you explore, the more likely you are to be happy with your purchase. I do not recommend buying points from Marriott. I recommend buying a week (often referred to as a legacy week - because in almost every case, Marriott no longer sells new weeks of ownership, and resale weeks available through them are diminishing (and still overpriced).  

One last piece of advice. If you are going to be interested in exchanging, pay attention to not only the resort but also the location you buy into. Orlando has a great supply of timeshare properties (some would even say a glut), however we have always found it to be a strong location to trade from. There is much demand for Orlando. On the other hand, while Branson, MO may be a nice place to visit; you may not find it a strong location to try to trade out of if you owned there. 

Marriott is anything but a perfect company, yet I would not choose to own my timeshare with anyone else. 

The End. 

:deadhorse:


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 10, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, I've been toying with this idea recently.  I'd considered buying a bunch of timeshares on the resale market and using them to generate a nice income stream.  For example, I saw a 1BR ski platinum week from Timber Lodge available for $5900.  That sounded choice: pay about $800/year in maintenance, and rent it out for up to $1400 (as advertised on Redweek).  Do that, then repeat till rich.
> 
> Then a dose of reality:
> 
> 1. That $1400 is more like a best case price (aside from the super-platinum Christmas weeks, which cost vastly more to purchase).  I see other winter weeks available for $1100-1200, and those are merely asking prices.  Maybe you end up renting for $1000.  2. There is opportunity cost in the purchase (roughly $6500 with closing costs, which would earn at least 5% if directed to another investment like bonds).  Call that $325/year.  3. Add in county taxes, at least $125.  Now that $1400 rental looks less enticing.   Sure, it might be a a bit over a 5% return on your investment, but with lots of risk and aggravation.  I wouldn't think of owning for rental without a reliable return of 10% or more on the initial investment.  With steadily rising maintenance fees, I really wonder whether the game of timeshare rental as an investment will ever work.  Is anybody out there really making good money, once all the true costs are factored in?  If so, PLEASE, let me know how you're doing it?  Denise?



It can and is done by many, myself included, but the bottom line is it takes money to make money.  

First off, IMHO it has to be a 2BDRM with view at a prime location and season. Forget 1BDRM units, they're in abundance and don't rent for nearly as much as 2BDRMs do. 

An example, a Maui Marriott 1BDRM OF winter week with a approx $1700 MF can be rented for $1900-$2200 for a possible net of $500. A 2BDRM OF winter week with MFs of $1900 will rent for $3k-$3.5K with a possible net of $1100-$1600.

Yes the 2BDRM unit will cost about 2x more, but in the long run the return on 2BDRMs is significant.

More examples:
Aruba Surf 2BDRM OV can be purchased for about $13K with MFs of less than $1400 and will rent for $3k.

Newport Coast 2BDRM plat can be bought for as little as $7500. MFs are less than $1100 and a summer week rents easily for $1900.

Grand Ocean HHI - Gold OF can be purchased for as little as $8k-$9k. MFs again less than $1100 or there abouts. Rents easily for $2k +

So it can be done, but as I said it takes money to make money. It also takes patience because your ROI will take some time to turn positive.


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## EKniager (Nov 10, 2011)

kjd said:


> No one can guarantee that rental rates or prices will go up. In fact, both are likely to go down in the future.  Marriott would have hung on to their timeshare business if they thought that the timeshare market was headed up in the future.  The spinoff is Marriott's answer to limiting their future exposure to a declining timeshare market while continuing to collect fees.



I think your flaw here is thinking that the "rental" model and the "timeshare ownership" model are related.  Marriott made money selling timeshare ownership.  Currently, developer sales are down and that market is no longer as profitable for them so... adios it goes.  

Renting a 2-bedroom condo or a hotel suite or timeshare, call it what you want, is not likely to go down long term.  Sure, short term, demand is down (although you wouldn't know that if you visited The Sanctuary on Kiawah and the Ritz Carlton Amelia Island recently).  Unless there is a total collapse of the world economy, middle class households will eventually fix their balance sheets and enjoy vacations, again.  Demand will recover and catch up, and eventually exceed supply (as new construction is way down).  Do you pay the same price for a Marriott hotel room in, let's say Boston in 2011, as you did in 1980 or '90?  Can't happen.  Energy, labor, maintenance, insurance, etc., are not going down.

Selling TS units for $25K may be a thing of the past for developers but profitable opportunities will always exist for those who can buy wisely from those in distress.   As a very wealthy friend of mine always says, "The profit is in the purchase!"


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## timeos2 (Nov 10, 2011)

MOXJO7282 said:


> It can and is done by many, myself included, but the bottom line is it takes money to make money.
> 
> First off, IMHO it has to be a 2BDRM with view at a prime location and season. Forget 1BDRM units, they're in abundance and don't rent for nearly as much as 2BDRMs do.
> 
> ...



And any of those that require air fare could, much like Hawaii has, suddenly become nearly impossible to rent at any price because people won't/cannot pay for the inflated air fare costs. Plus annual fees for that type of remote/inaccessible location often rise far faster than even the already high amount seen at land accessible resorts. 

In other words there are far too many variables completely outside the control of the prospective owner most of which tend to make the possibility of on going profits extremely unlikely.  As another post said when even the major players like Marriott choose to remove themselves from direct ownership/management after what must have been billions in investments in favor of a royalty type setup the chances of a small player beating the game are slim indeed.

Go ahead and buy up some of the unbelievably low - but still falling - offers but even those at the best times, places and resorts are unlikely to worth what they are selling for today in 3 years. Nor are the rental rates likely to hold while fees and other expenses are guaranteed to rise. Not a recipe for making a dime but one that will almost surely lead to a ongoing obligation with no cheap way out.  Do it - the resorts will love getting new paying owners - to USE - any other idea is 99% likely to fail badly.  The odds are not with you.  That doesn't even consider that when you really total all the expenses vs even optimistic rental rates (NEVER easy to get - zero guarantee of any rentals) the percentage return is pitiful. Simply not worth the significant risk.


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## OldPantry (Nov 10, 2011)

kjd said:


> The true speculator would buy "a bunch of weeks" at a cheap price (Which can be done); then rent the weeks at a profit over the maintenance fees (which can also be done) and then sell out at a much higher price. The speculator reaps their biggest profit at the end or they would not make the investment.
> 
> The fool would buy "a bunch of weeks" at a cheap price; rent the weeks with no guarantee that the rentals would cover the maintenance fees in the future; and then sell the weeks in the future for less than what they paid for them.  (A very likely possibility)
> 
> No one can guarantee that rental rates or prices will go up. In fact, both are likely to go down in the future.  Marriott would have hung on to their timeshare business if they thought that the timeshare market was headed up in the future.  The spinoff is Marriott's answer to limiting their future exposure to a declining timeshare market while continuing to collect fees.



Yup.  I've ended up with that identical conclusion.  Even looking at those juicy rentals in Aruba, I see a number of dead spots: platinum rentals at or below $2500.  Considering that the cheapest resales go for $17,000 and up, the investment begins to look shaky.  Sure, pulling in $3,000-6000 sounds great.  But can you really reserve those choice weeks? And will rentals stay sky-high for the long run?  There are a ton of offerings on Redweek; are people really getting their asking prices?  As you say, buying a bunch of stuff, even if sharply discounted, makes little sense if MFs are headed steadily higher (see that $300 jump Penns_Fan mentions), rentals steadily lower, and resales perhaps heading to the basement.  I'll stick with my bonds.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 10, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> And any of those that require air fare could, much like Hawaii has, suddenly become nearly impossible to rent at any price because people won't/cannot pay for the inflated air fare costs.



Hawaii has become nearly impossible for an owner to rent?  What do you base that on?  I typically do not rent my Hawaii weeks but I always have people approaching me to see if they can rent a week.  I can nearly cover my Maui maintenance fees by renting the studio side of a 2BR lockoff.  Even my "family discount" price for the studio is $1400/year.  This has not gotten more difficult over the past 5 or 6 years that we have owned there.


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## timeos2 (Nov 10, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> Hawaii has become nearly impossible for an owner to rent?  What do you base that on?  I typically do not rent my Hawaii weeks but I always have people approaching me to see if they can rent a week.  I can nearly cover my Maui maintenance fees by renting the studio side of a 2BR lockoff.  Even my "family discount" price for the studio is $1400/year.  This has not gotten more difficult over the past 5 or 6 years that we have owned there.



Three or four years ago Hawaii was a near impossible trade and a hefy premium to rent.  Now, with the economy woes and the run up in air fares as well as airline failures/closures/cutbacks a trade is almost at will - closer to Branson than a good west coast location and rentals have dropped in price dramatically - some to the fees or less.  If air fare /oil prices rise again it can and likely will get worse not only there but any location where driving isn't an option.  Meanwhile the same cost factors push fees up in those locations even more than the average resort.  Is that the owners fault? Can they control it? Of course not, but they suffer.  And if you bought there to rent or trade it isn't a deal anymore and may be extremely hard to unload. 

It is a great example of why even low cost timeshares purchase even at a great resort in paradise for anything but owner use is a very risky idea.


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 11, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> And any of those that require air fare could, much like Hawaii has, suddenly become nearly impossible to rent at any price because people won't/cannot pay for the inflated air fare costs. Plus annual fees for that type of remote/inaccessible location often rise far faster than even the already high amount seen at land accessible resorts.
> 
> In other words there are far too many variables completely outside the control of the prospective owner most of which tend to make the possibility of on going profits extremely unlikely.  As another post said when even the major players like Marriott choose to remove themselves from direct ownership/management after what must have been billions in investments in favor of a royalty type setup the chances of a small player beating the game are slim indeed.
> 
> Go ahead and buy up some of the unbelievably low - but still falling - offers but even those at the best times, places and resorts are unlikely to worth what they are selling for today in 3 years. Nor are the rental rates likely to hold while fees and other expenses are guaranteed to rise. Not a recipe for making a dime but one that will almost surely lead to a ongoing obligation with no cheap way out.  Do it - the resorts will love getting new paying owners - to USE - any other idea is 99% likely to fail badly.  The odds are not with you.  That doesn't even consider that when you really total all the expenses vs even optimistic rental rates (NEVER easy to get - zero guarantee of any rentals) the percentage return is pitiful. Simply not worth the significant risk.



I think you're absolutely right..... for all TSs other than Marriott 2BDRM prime resorts and weeks.  Those are very, very easy to rent at premium prices That is what my almost 10 years of experience renting prime Marriott weeks continues to tell me.

We had such a great run in the first 6 years of our ownership and then the economy crashed and I thought for sure I'd be stuck with weeks I couldn't rent.  Well that never happened. Last year we had our best year ever and we could easily rent every one of my weeks multiple times over they are in such high demand.  If we got through 2008-2010 its not going to get worse than that and we didn't even experience a hiccup.  

So far we've already rented all our 2012 Maui, Aruba and MOW weeks at my very close to asking price. So prime Marriott weeks are in fact very easy to rent. 

Also without going into detail your comment and the "return being pitiful" is inaccurate.


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## m61376 (Nov 11, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Yup.  I've ended up with that identical conclusion.  Even looking at those juicy rentals in Aruba, I see a number of dead spots: platinum rentals at or below $2500.  Considering that the cheapest resales go for $17,000 and up, the investment begins to look shaky.  Sure, pulling in $3,000-6000 sounds great.  But can you really reserve those choice weeks? And will rentals stay sky-high for the long run?  There are a ton of offerings on Redweek; are people really getting their asking prices?  As you say, buying a bunch of stuff, even if sharply discounted, makes little sense if MFs are headed steadily higher (see that $300 jump Penns_Fan mentions), rentals steadily lower, and resales perhaps heading to the basement.  I'll stick with my bonds.



Keep in mind that many of the lower priced rentals are for reservations closer in. Since Joe does have first hand experience renting in Aruba and elsewhere I'd accept his numbers at face value. I do know that there was a time when rental rates there were even higher and I also see that the rental rates from Marriott.com have crept up a bit this year. 

As the economy rebounds (which it inevitably will) people will return to vacationing, as many have already since it was only so long that they were putting off taking a vacation. What I seem to see is that people are vacationing but cutting back on expenses- perfect fodder for the timeshare model, since kitchen facilities allows one to have a great vacation but cut costs.

btw- the $300 increase in MF's which you mention- while certainly a very significant percentage increase- was primarily due to increasing reserves and, what is overlooked, followed 2 years of small declines. Put in that perspective, averaged out it would be in the 3-4% a year range. And I do suspect that in this market an OV Plat. week could be purchased for less than 17K on the resale market. 

That said, while there are those (like Joe) who clearly have been successful renting, I don't think I would personally buy to get into the rental business, but if my intention was to use most of the time and supplement my usage with renting, I do think that now is a great time to buy if you buy carefully (with the intent to use, buying where and when you want to go, and if with the intent of renting part of the time, with an eye on buying a high demand location). 

I really do believe there is continued value in high end timeshare properties (like Marriott) which impart a true resort vacation experience. While the naysayers are correct in that MF's will go up, hotel rentals will rise as well and likely (from what I've seen) at a higher rate. A non-holiday Feb. week with the 25% off no-frills hotel rate is about 5K for an OV room and about 4K for a studio at the SC on Marriott.com; in comparison, 3K for a 2BR villa with a view of the same ocean and on the same beach becomes a relative bargain.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 12, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Three or four years ago Hawaii was a near impossible trade and a hefy premium to rent.  Now, with the economy woes and the run up in air fares as well as airline failures/closures/cutbacks a trade is almost at will - closer to Branson than a good west coast location and rentals have dropped in price dramatically - some to the fees or less.  If air fare /oil prices rise again it can and likely will get worse not only there but any location where driving isn't an option.  Meanwhile the same cost factors push fees up in those locations even more than the average resort.  Is that the owners fault? Can they control it? Of course not, but they suffer.  And if you bought there to rent or trade it isn't a deal anymore and may be extremely hard to unload.


Wow.  You are comparing Hawaii to Branson?  Any other "facts" you want to make up?  Do you even own a Marriott timeshare?


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## GregT (Nov 12, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Three or four years ago Hawaii was a near impossible trade and a hefy premium to rent.  Now, with the economy woes and the run up in air fares as well as airline failures/closures/cutbacks *a trade is almost at wil*l



A trade into Hawaii is almost at will?

I've been waiting six months now for a trade to clear to trade my Maui Ocean Club Studio deposit back into another Maui Ocean Club Studio for June 2012.

This is what I have going for me:

1. Home Resort Preference
2. Like for Like
3. Deposit is a TDI 140 week
4. Deposit made months before check-in, so no loss of trade power

Yet, here we are on November 12th, and no successful trade....hmmm....

Perhaps someone can trade into a different Hawaii property or into a shoulder season, but trading into MOC in summer remains difficult for me at least (but I do need a specific check-in....so that has to be a factor).

Best,

Greg


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## hipslo (Nov 12, 2011)

For the sixth year in a row, I have been able to rent all of my platinum Mountainside weeks that I have not been able to use personally, all for at least 1600 over maintenance fees, and some for as much as 2200 over maintenance fees.  Some of those rentals have even been back to Marriott through the rental program.  Rental rates have held more or less steady from year to year.  I often get emails from prior renters asking if I have anything available for the current year.  Usually by then all of my weeks have been rented already. I have never not been able to rent a week for at least 1600 over mfs.

These weeks are currently readily  available for purchase on the resale market for 16,000 or less.   Thats a 10% ROI.

Your mileage may vary.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 13, 2011)

(Nothing to do with the thread topic but mods don't always read every post.  If you want to call their attention to something, click on that little triangle in the bottom left corner of the post.)


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## DeniseM (Nov 13, 2011)

GaryDouglas said:


> Moderator, please strike this derogatory political statement.



Moderators do not read every post, in every forum.  To report a post that violates the TUG Posting rules, please click on the red triangle in the bottom left corner of the post.

I have deleted a number of political posts from this thread - the next one will result in the thread being closed.


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## DeniseM (Nov 13, 2011)

My own 2¢ worth:  I have no problem renting my 2 bdm. Westin Ka'anapali TS (Maui) for $3,600 a week.  2012 was rented months ago - more than 8 mos. out from check-in.  

People who will pay $3,600 a week for a vacation have not been as impacted by the economy as the Motel 6 crowd.  There is still plenty of demand for luxury rentals.


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## GaryDouglas (Nov 13, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Moderators do not read every post, in every forum. To report a post that violates the TUG Posting rules, please click on the red triangle in the bottom left corner of the post.
> 
> I have deleted a number of political posts from this thread - the next one will result in the thread being closed.


 
Thank you. I'm afraid I'll probably have to click on that button too many times over the next 12 months. I never used it before, but the times will probably demand it. Thanks again...


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## Beefnot (Nov 13, 2011)

Moderator, will you delete the prior post? I am offended and it is off topic.


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## DeniseM (Nov 13, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> Moderator, will you delete the prior post? I am offended and it is off topic.



NO  

Here are the TUG Posting Rules, in case you aren't familiar with them - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/tug_rules.php


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## Beefnot (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks for the response Denise, but ah, I still won  Ok now we can get back on topic


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## Beefnot (Nov 13, 2011)

Everyone talks about buy where you want to go but then in the same breath talks about all the spectacular trades and all that. I figure its best to buy somewhere dirt cheap near you (my silver Shadow Ridge I got for a dollar and a quarter should close by thanksgiving I'm told) and learn.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 13, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> Everyone talks about buy where you want to go but then in the same breath talks about all the spectacular trades and all that. I figure its best to buy somewhere dirt cheap near you (my silver Shadow Ridge I got for a dollar and a quarter should close by thanksgiving I'm told) and learn.





Not so fast...  Now you're stuck with that week and the required annual fees that go with it.   Will you be able to turn around and sell it to get that ball and chain off your back?

I hope the learning curve isn't too steep.....




.


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## timeos2 (Nov 13, 2011)

Make no mistake - I am a strong proponent of owning timeshare. But in nearly 20 years of all types of ownerships, memberships in II, RCI, SFX and other independents and many years of serving on Board's I now have concluded that you must be extremely selective in WHAT you buy.  It is far too easy to buy a "deal" and be focused on all the wrong reasons.  A low purchase price means nothing about the quality of the resort or system - and high price doesn't either.  Purchase price is basically money lost as it gets you nothing but the right to pay future fees for use.  

Annual fees are the real cost and far too many buyers either ignore this or aren't truly aware of how a condo/timeshare Association and/or multi-resort timeshare system really works.  They are too quick to buy in without even knowing if they are buying an owner controlled resort/system (good idea if done with proper research) or one under the all too often heavy thumb & control of a developer (usually a bad move unless you really understand how that means you have virtually no say in anything and will pay whatever they decide you owe).  

Add in the last few years of economic woes and the resulting crush of both cheap resales (CAN be a good deal if bought for use & with Owner control) and unbelievable deals on rentals even in the best places at formerly unavailable times and there are very few purchases that really make sense. The out of control exchange fees, the unchecked annual fees (especially when under "name brand" Association control) and the inability to easily get out of a timeshare you no longer have use for mean those that you buy had better be for your use, easy to get to (avoid required air fare as that too is a killer when prices rise) and pay little or nothing as the real costs are those fees and sellers just want out.  

Timeshares can still be a great way to travel on a budget but don't get blinded by the many great ones being offered cheap.  There is a reason. They don't rent easily, they don't sell or even give away easily and fees can and will go up - in many cases quickly and unexpectedly. Not to even mention those special assessments - only owners pay those.  Renters can pay (maybe less than the annual fees - maybe a little more for the very best but they have no ongoing obligation or risk) enjoy and move on to the next with no exchange company memberships or fees, no annual fees and no need to go to a specific resort or system most of the time. if you WANT to go to a specific resort/system then by all means buy (or accept a free ownership) and enjoy.  But for trade, rental or resale timeshares tend to be very much a losing proposition. 

We enjoy our two ownerships & wouldn't give them up. But we're VERY happy we sold off the 6+ others as none of them made economic sense to own today.  We continue to enjoy them all by renting - all prime times and unit sizes/locations we want. Far easier than even the best systems and we are paying far less.  For most I'll bet that is the best approach today.  YMMV.


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## Beefnot (Nov 13, 2011)

You really think I couldn't give away a Marriott palm springs free to good home if push came to shove?  Even if not, my wife and family will love the luxurious vacations there every year.  Now that cheap off-brand platinum Orlando TS I am buying on the other hand, I'm getting buyer's remorse already. That may be a painful learning experience, as I violated a TUG cardinal rule in buying just to trade...and bought in Orlando to bat. Gulp.


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## GregT (Nov 13, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> Moderator, will you delete the prior post? I am offended and it is off topic.





Beefnot said:


> Thanks for the response Denise, but ah, I still won  Ok now we can get back on topic



Beefnot,

I'm not sure what to make of your posts here --   you were offended, but then happy that you won?   

Irrespective, welcome to TUG and I do hope that you find helpful information here to make the most of your purchases.   I think your Marriott will be a good property to utilize for personal use or for trading and if trading, I hope you reserve July 4th weeks for best trading power.  I don't know your Florida property, but will hope it works out.

All the best,

Greg


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## Beefnot (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks Greg. Can't wait to post about my experiences.

P.S. Was not offended at all, was making light of all the p.c. sensitivity.


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## timeos2 (Nov 13, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> You really think I couldn't give away a Marriott palm springs free to good home if push came to shove?  Even if not, my wife and family will love the luxurious vacations there every year.  Now that cheap off-brand platinum Orlando TS I am buying on the other hand, I'm getting buyer's remorse already. That may be a painful learning experience, as I violated a TUG cardinal rule in buying just to trade...and bought in Orlando to bat. Gulp.



Sure - but that just proves my earlier point that purchase price is money lost. If you are willing to pay a relatively big purchase price, then inflated fees for a name management all to give it away when you're done that may be a nice way to vacation but it sure isn't a cheap way.  If you want that great!  Just don't try to say it's a bargain - it's paying fairly high cost for a better than average ownership/use.  

Nothing wrong with that at all if you want it & are willing to pay. The thread seems to have been based on inexpensive ways to take advantage of the better deals out there not paying big money for nice places. No trick or deal in that.


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## Beefnot (Nov 14, 2011)

The Marriott I got for nothing so at least there is no purchase money gone. Even the Orlando one cost nothing. So my acquisition costs are not at issue. Utility while i own and ability to dispose should I need are my only concerns.  The only reason I would put down big dough up front is if I really -- scratch that, I wouldn't pay big money up front under any circumstance.


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