# Getting Temporary VIP vs. Permanent VIP



## A.Win (Mar 19, 2014)

After lurking for over a year, I'm ready for my first post. I am considering the jump from gold to platinum. I'll probably meet with sales next month (April 2014) in Florida and want to be well prepared. Here are some questions:

1. What is the CHEAPEST way to get temporary platinum VIP? From my meeting last year, I remember that it lasts for 2 years (if this is true, I suppose platinum would end in April 2016 for me). If I use all my 2014 to 2018 points to get a 50% discount (instead of 35%), I can save nearly $5,000 worth of points. This would mean LOTS of reservations in 2015, including some for rent.

2. To get permanent platinum, I would need to buy 300,000 points (in addition to my 2 PIC weeks). What do you think is the best price for that? Personally, I prefer paying extra for low MF resorts, but I will likely be offered CWA.

3. Should I get temporary or permanent VIP? (Another reason for another purchase is to change my account name. Currently it is just me, but I wanted to add my wife and children to the title. I think doing this costs about $299 right?)

4. Why is everyone so negative on VIP? Would you rather have 1 million platinum points or 2 million regular points? I would prefer to be platinum because your MFs will only be half as much (assuming the platinum benefits will not be eroded).

5. If I do choose to buy, what extras do you think I can negotiate for? $125 instead of $75 to attend the sales meeting? RCI certificates? anything else?

Thanks for reading.


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## csxjohn (Mar 19, 2014)

Not everyone is against VIP and for some it can pay off.

If you're going to book in the discount window and do it a lot, it will save you money.  And if you can rent weeks out it will work too.

Of course you mentioned a big "if."  Those Bennie's and rules can and will change from time to time.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 19, 2014)

One of the biggest drawbacks is that it is  a discretionary Developer  perk  subject to  Wyndham's whims.

I  don't think your  assumption that you can find lots of  things  you want to book at 60 mark valid and cancel  and rebook is  dicey.

You indicate you need to buy 300K Developer points which will cost around $50K.  Put that $50K in good  long term mutual  and earn around  $5K and  still have your  principal  several years from now.

Since you would get an incremental 150K points  this would basically provide with 2 BR  at  most resorts! The saved MF on  these points would be  about  $800,  but the MF on  new 300K points would  be $1,600.

However  if you  have  a game plan  that will result in many rentals  lay out on paper  and make  sure it works.

Of course, since all Developer  points Wyndham might buy back at 20% in 5 years  if they feel like it!


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## uscav8r (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm not sure why you want temporary vs permanent. Even temp VIP will require a retail purchase, only to have the status expire. Are you trying to see if Platinum will work for you?


It will be virtually the same as your current Gold usage with some minor improvements. 

As Paco says, the 60 day cancel/rebook practice is becoming increasingly unreliable, so your realization of the extra 15% discount over Gold may never happen. 


Have you had any luck getting discounted ressies with Gold that you have then rented out? 


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## ronparise (Mar 19, 2014)

A.Win said:


> After lurking for over a year, I'm ready for my first post. I am considering the jump from gold to platinum. I'll probably meet with sales next month (April 2014) in Florida and want to be well prepared. Here are some questions:
> 
> 1. What is the CHEAPEST way to get temporary platinum VIP? From my meeting last year, I remember that it lasts for 2 years (if this is true, I suppose platinum would end in April 2016 for me). If I use all my 2014 to 2018 points to get a 50% discount (instead of 35%), I can save nearly $5,000 worth of points. This would mean LOTS of reservations in 2015, including some for rent.
> 
> ...



from last to first

5) I cant believe you are thinking about spending $50000 to buy 300,000 more points, and worrying over the difference between a $75 gift card and $125.  By the way, at Reunion the other day I was given $125, to listen to some baloney.  At one point I asked if I had suffered enough to earn the $125. and he hustled me off to the exit desk.... No negotiating needed.

4) No one is negative on VIP. The benefits are real and quite valuable. The question is..are they valuable enough to justify the price tag.  Generally the answer is no, but if you can get the price low enough, and the benefits high enough...maybe

As for my self I get a 50% discount on 20 million points, and 60 guest certs a year for the 12 grand cash I gave up....For me it was worth it. But I dont think you have nearly the points; and I dont think you can get the deal I got anymore...That loophole is closing.

And to your question ..Would I rather have  a million VIP or 2 million not?  It depends on the cost.  The annual difference in mf is about $6000. Im not into 
a 20 year break even...Ill be dead before then.

Your's is a different question..You are going from gold to platinum. which will require much less in the way of new points and new cash. 

3) In spite of what I said above given where you are now...Gold;  I would rather permanent Platinum over temporary. but again it depends on the cost

2) best price will be a foreclosure that they have in inventory and the price could be as little as 10 cents a point

1) If I understand how the sales force uses temporary VIP. They give you some bonus points with a purchase to kick you over (in your case) a million points.  When I bought a 63000 point contract recently, they gave me a 63000 point bonus, for one year. I know someone that bought enough for Silver, but she was bonused enough to get gold for 2 years. So you are probably right.  The question is how much will you be required to buy...Im guessing at least 105000 points or about $20000 real money


Remember your real benefit will be a 50% discount rather than a 35% discount... if you do all your reservation now in the 60 day window, as a gold vip owning 700000 points gets you  the equivalent of  about 1,100,000  the extra 400000 points saves you about $2000 a year.  If you go to platinum (temporary) you get the equivalent of 2 million points but pay mf on 800000. so you save $6000 mf  a year over 2 years vs $2000 you are saving now...So  save $8000 in mf for your $20000 purchase....Doesnt make sense to me.

Buy the 300000 points ($60000) and save $4000 a year for life is a 15 year payback...Still doesnt make sense to me

The better way to do this if you need more vacations,is to put your $60k in a good tax free muni bond at 5% and earn $3000 a year and use the $3000 to pay the mf on  600000 new points purchase on the secondary market. ie you keep your money and with 1,300,000 points and a gold discount you still get the equivalent of 2,000,000 points 

Do the math


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## am1 (Mar 19, 2014)

I would not waste my effort trying to get a better gift.  If you are seriously interested save your bargaining for when your with the salesmen.  

Your plan may have merit.


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## uscav8r (Mar 19, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> Not everyone is against VIP and for some it can pay off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Another biggie: "if" there is availability at a rentable (for profit) resort during the discount window. 


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## A.Win (Mar 19, 2014)

I thought getting temporary VIP would be much cheaper. If it is $20,000 (as estimated by Ron), then that is too much. The original idea would be to pay some now and save $5,000 with the extra discount, then pay more later to get permanent platinum. But this apparently won't work if the price is so high.

But I like Ron's idea of buying a foreclosure for 10 cents. I think $30K more for platinum would be worth it. 

I ran the numbers. If I bought 300K more points, my MF would go up by $2.7K and my travel benefit would go up by $6.1K. So is the cost worth an additional $3.4 K in travel? If the cost is $30K, I think the answer is yes. The return is more than 10% while a CD is paying 2%. The numbers are more favorable for me because I will PIC 2 bigger units at the time of purchase. Currently, I am only picking 2-bedroom units.

Since I can't use all this travel by myself, I will need to do some rentals. I think I can do some of that too, but it will certainly take some effort.


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## csxjohn (Mar 19, 2014)

A.Win said:


> ...
> Since I can't use all this travel by myself, I will need to do some rentals. I think I can do some of that too, but it will certainly take some effort.



There are a lot of people on eBay, Craig's List, and here in the bargain deals that thought they could make a profit renting.

Unless you have a very desirable unit at very prime time it may not work.

I saw a lot of last minute ads for race week and bike week in Daytona for significant discounts.

Ron's dealing with 20,000,000 points so his purchase will pay him in a short time.  You will be in that same pond with him trying to make your rentals pay. ( Better wear a PFD.)

As Ron said, for most people the cost is not worth it.  Run your numbers again and try renting before you make the  jump.


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## A.Win (Mar 19, 2014)

Thanks for the warning. I do have some experience renting homes (mostly months and years at a time) and a few weeks here and there. It is indeed difficult, and I also strongly discourage others from trying it. But with hard work, it has worked out OK for me thus far.

My intention is to use most of the points for myself and my family. But depending on the year, I will probably need to rent 0-40% of my points. 

If you think the alternative is 10% on the stock market, then buy resale or rent.
If the alternative is 2% in a CD, then buying platinum probably makes more sense. Even if it cost you $100K to get platinum, you will save about $6K per year in MF. So for those that travel a lot and can rent, then platinum can work.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 19, 2014)

Ron is living proof renting TSs can be very profitable for people with expertise, devote time and do home work. Shoot, he might get award at VOI meeting in May for largest ownership. Read and heed his sage advice.

Also, several active posters who have "web site" on their post are active renters who are your competition. Check 'em out!

Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her.

As Ron mentions, if one can get to VIP on the cheap using converting fixed week units, buying ton of points from Corporate repros, buying from HOA who can sell foreclosure with VIP perks, getting adopted by VIP, etc. then might might sense. At what point is strictly based on individual circumstances.

Renting SFR is totally different than TSs. It can be very profitable, shoot at one point I had 14 condos going and being retired, handy and jail house lawyer found very profitable. My TS rentals have been so so and fighting with Ron for NO Mardi Gras weeks , etc. at the crack of dawn challenging!

I don't think comparing 2% CDs with stock market is reasonable. One who is not comfortable with money in Morningstar 4-5 star rated, no load, low fee mutual funds probably should not be investing in TS rentals. Granted the 30%+ stock market return last year is way above average of 9-10% but for most should be long term. Likewise, Wyndham soaring from $3 to $70 in 5 years.

Also, keep in mind PICing is not deeded right. If resort drops RCI affiliation PIC vaporises.  Also, other posts indicate Wyndham is trying to scale down.

Another note, I made a major Developer purchase around 9/18/2011 as was only warm body in sales center and was bonused  up to VIP Gold for two years and got bonus points  for each year  as sales manager had tones of goodies in incentives in drawer/.hip pocket and needed to make some kind of sale. Paid $9.00+ per 1,000 so price is very negotiable. The old right place, right time.


In my experience RCI bonus certificates  don't even make good toilet paper  or  fire starter

Virtually everyone wants low MF and  high ARP and market reflects.

Purchase price free and MF $500. 10 year cost $5K

Purchase price $1K, MF $400 10 year cost $5K.

Ignores time value of money which would  favor higher MF  paid over time vs  $1K up front!


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## A.Win (Mar 19, 2014)

I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.

Now if I start buying more on top of the 1 million, then that means I am renting (or spending a month or two in NYC or S.F. or Chicago)

My retirement money is aggressively in stocks already. So I need to be more cautious with the rest of it. A 10% return in the form of travel works better than a 2% CD for me.


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## am1 (Mar 19, 2014)

If you do not want to do rentals do not try to do them.  It is not easy.  That I can promise you.  

Checking availability every day for the whole here and responding to e-mails even more than that.  

The exception is if you will be renting to friends and family.


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## uscav8r (Mar 19, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you are trying to make 1 million points, it sounds like you already have 700k for Gold. It sound from you post that you might already have about 100k excess in some years. How has the rental of those points gone so far (if you have tried it)?


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 19, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> If you are trying to make 1 million points, it sounds like you already have 700k for Gold. It sound from you post that you might already have about 100k excess in some years. How has the rental of those points gone so far (if you have tried it)?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Guessing from limited  post info,   has 500K  grand fathered  Gold VIP.

Looking for TUG blessing which  has  not  been  forthcoming!


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## uscav8r (Mar 19, 2014)

pacodemountainside said:


> Guessing from limited  post info,   has 500K  grand fathered  Gold VIP.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for TUG blessing which  has  not  been  forthcoming!




It's buried, but post #1, question 2 mentions 300k needed for Platinum. 

I'd be okay with it except I can't see the added value being worth $30-50k. OP already gets 35% discount at 60 days. So pay that much $$$ for an extra 15% off and 15 days earlier for upgrades, and 5 guest certs??? Otherwise Gold is the same as Platinum and no further retail purchase is needed. 

OP also mentions he does NOT want to be in the landlord business, but this proposed move almost makes it a necessity. 






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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 19, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.
> 
> Now if I start buying more on top of the 1 million, then that means I am renting (or spending a month or two in NYC or S.F. or Chicago)
> 
> My retirement money is aggressively in stocks already. So I need to be more cautious with the rest of it. A 10% return in the form of travel works better than a 2% CD for me.



If you don't want to do rentals then add your 300,000 to your account as resale save the 50,000, enjoy your vacation and have fun. I have found platinum is worth it if you are going to rent your account 80+%. if that isn't your plan, stick with the 35% you have and enjoy the family time. 

Here is the example on how I don't see this working with just personal use. We are heading to panama city beach on Friday for 10 days we have 2 - 3 bedroom presidential units there. The presidential units are 770,000 and 805,000 points respectively. With my discount and upgrade from a studio upper (no lower studios sun - sun) my cost for those rooms is 112,000 points a piece. The problem with that is to do that I have to sit on reservations of about 2 million points for 11 months because of full price units with backups in case I lost one in the cancel/rebook. If you did the same thing you would now have 1.8 million points to find some place to use the rest of this year. Without rentals there is no way I could allocate that many points to my personal reservations. I wouldn't be able to use the rest of the points in the year. Getting the 90% discount is awesome but difficult to do and do consistently.

Jason


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Getting the 90% discount is awesome but difficult to do and do consistently.
> 
> Jason



and even if you could get it consistently, you would still be tying up nearly 2 million points for a year.....doesnt leave much to rent?


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## uscav8r (Mar 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> and even if you could get it consistently, you would still be tying up nearly 2 million points for a year.....doesnt leave much to rent?



Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of cancelled points that this generates, for which there _may _or _may not_ be enough time to reuse within the Wyndham system by the end of the use year (and be forced to dump them into RCI or other inefficient purpose).


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

pacodemountainside said:


> ...Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her...



This is what can happen when you base your plans on current VIP rules.

There is no guarantee that any level VIP will continue to get its current discount or other perks.


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

pacodemountainside said:


> Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her.



What kind of money was she making or voluming was she doing?  Its hard to imagine she would get run out because of any change in VIP benefits.  
I know others got pushed out but surely someone doing a lot of rental could work around any of the changes.


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

I did a different analysis. By buying GOLD, I am estimating a travel return of about 10%. I'm happy with that, but others want a much higher return.

If I bought PLATINUM (for $30K more), I am estimating a travel return of 12%. That is even better.

But it would be like buying a $70,000 car on sale for $60,000, when you really only need a $30,000 car. You can look at it like I'm saving $10,000, HOORAY! or I'm spending $30,000 more than I need to.

If I went platinum, my unit size would probably be bigger too.

I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?



Nothing yet but there may be a time where I want to trade using rci points.


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## uscav8r (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I did a different analysis. By buying GOLD, I am estimating a travel return of about 10%. I'm happy with that, but others want a much higher return.
> 
> If I bought PLATINUM (for $30K more), I am estimating a travel return of 12%. That is even better.



I'm confused. Are you currently Gold? If so, your analysis should really be, "what is the improvement of Platinum over Gold for the marginal cost to get that improvement?" Using your numbers, there is a 2% ROI improvement over Gold. Remember, the range of cost to upgrade your ownership is AT LEAST $30k, but more likely closer to $50k. You'll just to be on the look out for the right deal, and say "no" to everything else.



> But it would be like buying a $70,000 car on sale for $60,000, when you really only need a $30,000 car. You can look at it like I'm saving $10,000, HOORAY! or I'm spending $30,000 more than I need to.



There's nothing like buying a car (or apparently a timeshare) to get us humans out of thinking rationally!



> If I went platinum, my unit size would probably be bigger too.



No comment.



> I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?



It really depends on when you tend to have most of your reservations that you want to do the cancel/rebook for. If you have a January use year, and are trying to do this on Christmas or New Years vacations, there is only a short 1-3 months to use up the cancelled points. If you are doing this for Mardi GRAS on the other hand, you'll have just about a full 12 months to use the cancelled points.

That's one of the reasons why the alignment of accounts to a single use year was bad for some and not much of a big deal for others.


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm willing to pay up to $30K for the gold to platinum upgrade. My wife would prefer not to invest in more travel. She wants a big primary home.

In an earlier post, I estimated an increased travel benefit of $3.4K. But as so many of you have pointed out, this estimate can change drastically depending on the assumptions. If I can get upgrades on top of the 50% discount, I can do better. But if the rules change, or I end up moving valuable Platinum points to RCI, my return could be lower. Will I be able to rent well or only cover the MF? There are so many variables to platinum ownership!


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I'm willing to pay up to $30K for the gold to platinum upgrade. My wife would prefer not to invest in more travel. She wants a big primary home.
> 
> In an earlier post, I estimated an increased travel benefit of $3.4K. But as so many of you have pointed out, this estimate can change drastically depending on the assumptions. If I can get upgrades on top of the 50% discount, I can do better. But if the rules change, or I end up moving valuable Platinum points to RCI, my return could be lower. Will I be able to rent well or only cover the MF? There are so many variables to platinum ownership!



One thing is not a variable and that is the amount you will eventually give to W to obtain this level.

Everything else will change including your personal situation.  I'm not seeing the logic of this increased travel benefit you speak of.  If you are talking about the difference between your current 35% discount and the future 50% discount in points used then you are not even considering the future rises in MFs that you will incur every year on your new purchase.  That's going to eat into any return your calculating.

I think your wife is making more sense here.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 20, 2014)

am1 said:


> What kind of money was she making or voluming was she doing?  Its hard to imagine she would get run out because of any change in VIP benefits.
> I know others got pushed out but surely someone doing a lot of rental could work around any of the changes.




I understand   around 16 million points. There  are several posts here   by her.  Unfortunately Wyndham's legal  beagles   had court  records  sealed  and  no one knows what finally happened.

I  think  one thing that  wiped her out was no longer being  able to  transfer points between owners.

See  following for  gist of  her complaints.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As many of you know I am preparing a personal lawsuit again Wyndham Vacation Ownership. I had hoped to file it on 10/09/08 because I liked the idea of a ‘count down’ date. But, silly me, the count down, as it turns out – was against us, as Wyndham VO owners!!! A date I am sure we can all remember.

Instead of filing what I had ready and prepared, I decided to take an extra few days and ‘expand’ the scope of my Complaint. As of 10/09/08 it was a very personal lawsuit but since then I have decided to add a section about Wyndham policy in general as it relates to the Deteriorating Benefits of all Wyndham owners – and us ‘mega owners/renters’ in particular.

By my incorporating these issues into my lawsuit, there should be a very good likelihood that Wyndham will have to address them in my legal right to request depositions, interrogatives and my demand for them to produce documentation. They can avoid our requests and postings that we discuss among ourselves but they CANNOT ignore a court order indefinitely. And YES - I am prepared for a VERY LONG HAUL/WAR - they Will Not Out Wait Me and they can't cost me more than I've already paid (i.e. everything I owned). I have nothing more I can lose (my Faith is not at stake), all the time in the world to fight them and free legal advice!!!! I guess they could hope that I die and go home to Dad. To date my Complaint is over 30 pages long and has +150 'points/paragraphs/whatever those numbered things are called'.

To this end – would you please review my list below and edit as needed. I specifically want to know if what I have detailed below is accurate and WHEN these events occurred (and/or were rescinded). For reasons I can't understand (she says with tongue in cheek) - Wyndham stopped answering my emails weeks/months ago when I asked for clarification on these and other issues.

Overall it seems that these DETERORATING BENEFITS began shortly after Deanne Gabel became Senior Vice President of Owner Services in early/mid 2006 (and who has recently added “FairShare Plus Plan Manager” to her title). Because I still like Deanne personally (and Shearon Roach-Hurst, Jodie Davidson, Elaine Havock and Teresa Havock - and maybe Matthew Elquist to whom I've spoken twice - and maybe Scott Richards but I've never met nor had any 'dealings' with him yet - I just know that he replaced Jodie Davidson when she got promoted) and respect them as loyal Wyndham employees, I choose to believe that they are being coerced by Wynfield into being their 'Hatch People' against their personal (not professional) choice. I could (and very well might) be wrong - but that it what I choose to believe. With that said - there are true 'slim balls' out there that I won't discuss!!!


Phase One – AFTER the May 11, 2006 VOA meeting in Las Vegas, NV - no more VIP benefits for guests (no more point discounts, no more free upgrades and no more free guest certificates for guests of VIP owners). 

Phase Two – AFTER the May 31, 2007 VOA meeting in Orlando, FL - there are no longer unlimited free guest certifications (the price is now $49) and reservations have to be cancelled 15 days before check-in or all points will be lost.

Phase Three – at our preVOA (May 28) and the VOA (May 29, 2008) meeting in Orlando, FL – no more unlimited guest confirmations but ‘prorated’ as to level of membership (1 for FSP member, 5 for VIP, 10 for Gold VIP and 15 per million for Platinum) based on retail, resale and PIC points with additional guest certificates to cost $49 as of Oct. 15, 2008.

Phase Four – 10/09/08 email entitled “Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees”. During the May 28, 2009 pre VOA meeting Deanne Gabel was specifically asked “Can we expect more fee announcements this year?” and “Can you justify the increase in the guest confirmation fees when they can be requested via the Web without any customer support participation?” Her reply – “There are no increases in fees anticipated.” In the announcement it was stated that Guest Confirmations would increase from $25 to $129/$99 (contact center/website), that resale points will not be used to calculate ‘eligible points’ into the guest certificate equation, and that there will be increases in five of the other seven ‘fee based’ categories.

Comments/corrections are being solicited but I would appreciate receiving them ASAP so that I can finish ‘what needs be done’. Kendra

DETERORATING BENEFITS – Aimed Particularly at “Renters”
No longer able to rent unlimited points from Wyndham – July, 2006
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
No longer able to transfer of PIC points to other owners – Jan., 2007
No longer receive unlimited guest certificates as VIP Platinum – Oct 15, 2008
Resale points not ‘eligible’ in count of how many limited guest certificates
Increase in fee for guest certificates - $25 to $49 to $129/$99 (contact center/website)
Increase in fee for Express Window (within 60 days of check-in) of Points Rental - $5 per 1K to $10/$8 per 1 K (contact center/website)
Can’t use photos from website – Jan, 2008
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - when?
No guests without owner present – 
CHANGED BACK - when?
Cancel 15 days prior to check-in or lose all points -
Increase in fees – Oct. 15, 2008

DETERORATING BENEFITS – VIP
No longer have our personal ‘Vacation Counselor’
No longer have our own ‘Exclusive Toll-free Reservations Hotline’
No longer request specific rooms
Increase in PIC (Personal Interval Choice) fees from $25 to $49 to $89
No ½ point discounts for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) -
CHANGED BACK -
No upgrades for guests within 60 days without owners present (VIP Platinum) –
CHANGED BACK - 

DETERORATING BENEFITS – General
No longer receive VIP status with resale – July, 2006
Regular use points are used before cancelled points (which can NOT be transferred to other owners, used to make an ARP [Advance Reservation Priority at ones home resort at 13 months], RARP [Reciprocal Advance Reservation Priority at 11 months at other resorts] or put in the credit pool).
Increased fees in six of Wyndham’s eight “Fee Based Categories: :
Subject: Important Changes to Your FairShare Plus Transaction Fees
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:08:17 -0700
From: FairSharePlus@FVOA.com


Program Feature Current Fee New Fee 
Contact Center New Fee 
Web Site 

As of October 15, 2008 
Reservation Transactions $30 $59 $30 
Points Credit Pool $30 $39 Not Currently Available 
Points Rental Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Standard Window 
$10 per 1,000 Not Currently Available 
Express Window 
$5 per 1,000 Express Window 
$10 per 1,000 Express Window 
$8 per 1,000 
PIC
(Personal Interval Choice) $50 $89 Not Currently Available 
Guest Confirmations
(Fee only applies to confirmations made in excess of annual complimentary allocation based on eligible points) $25 $129 $99 
Housekeeping Credits $2.25 per credit No Change No Change 
Billing Fee
(If you receive a paper version of your monthly or annual statement) $6 $8 No Fee with PAC 



RCI
No longer make ARP exchanges into RCI
No longer ‘see’ generic deposits on RCI website – 

EXTRA HOLIDAYS
Wyndham Vacation Ownership’s ‘rental ‘arm’ – does not have to abide by same rules as owners (pay for guest certificate, cancel before 15 days of check-in, guests accept responsibility for any damage). Extra Holidays can take a full week of an owner's 'reservation' and just pay (weeks later) for one or two days and the owner has lost the rest. Wyndham is allowed to take 90% of the inventory that is still available 60 days before check-in and put it into Extra Holidays.

Kendra


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your input.

I realize that MFs will increase. But this is offset by the rising cost of travel in general. Inflation sucks. 

The question is can I meaningfully make use of the 300,000 increase in platinum points. My current strategy is to get a family member to commit to taking 2 vacations per year.


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I realize that MFs will increase. But this is offset by the rising cost of travel in general. Inflation sucks.



Mf's increasing is a reason to get platinum.  When they do increase I would rather own 1 million with platinum then 2 million or more resale points.


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

pacodemountainside said:


> I understand   around 16 million points. There  are several posts here   by her.  Unfortunately Wyndham's legal  beagles   had court  records  sealed  and  no one knows what finally happened.
> 
> I  think  one thing that  wiped her out was no longer being  able to  transfer points between owners.



I wasnt there, and I have no idea how she did her business, but at 100000 points per reservation we are only talking about  160  reservations a year maybe 200 if she did a lot weekends and discounted reservations maybe 300. I seem to remember reading somewhere that she blamed Wyndham for losing her house to foreclosure. Because she borrowed against her home to pay mf. And at one point her account was frozen...  So the expenses of daily living continued, but her income stopped suddenly

I can think of 6 points managers off the top of my head that all manage more than Kendra did. They are able to profit under the current rules that wiped Kendra out...so

  I think what wiped her out wasnt just one thing, It was all of it and she wasnt able to adapt to the changes fast enough


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## comicbookman (Mar 20, 2014)

I can tell you that Platinum is nice, but I wish I had stopped at Gold.  I get a better return on the million points I bought retail.  I have tried to play the games, but It does not seem to generate any significant savings over when I was gold.  That could just be us, but with the uncertainty of the non guaranteed VIP benefits it seems to me, in hindsight, that if you are spending tens of thousands of dollars, that is the only honest way to do a long term evaluation.  I hope you enjoy your points, however you acquire them.


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## comicbookman (Mar 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> I wasnt there, and I have no idea how she did her business, but at 100000 points per reservation we are only talking about  160  reservations a year maybe 200 if she did a lot weekends and discounted reservations maybe 300. I seem to remember reading somewhere that she blamed Wyndham for losing her house to foreclosure. Because she borrowed against her home to pay mf. And at one point her account was frozen...  So the expenses of daily living continued, but her income stopped suddenly
> 
> I can think of 6 points managers off the top of my head that all manage more than Kendra did. They are able to profit under the current rules that wiped Kendra out...so
> 
> I think what wiped her out wasnt just one thing, It was all of it and she wasnt able to adapt to the changes fast enough



What Ron said


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

comicbookman said:


> I can tell you that Platinum is nice, but I wish I had stopped at Gold.  I get a better return on the million points I bought retail.  I have tried to play the games, but It does not seem to generate any significant savings over when I was gold.  That could just be us, but with the uncertainty of the non guaranteed VIP benefits it seems to me, in hindsight, that if you are spending tens of thousands of dollars, that is the only honest way to do a long term evaluation.  I hope you enjoy your points, however you acquire them.



Thanks for this honest feedback. So when you were gold, in hindsight, which action would you take?
1. Buy nothing else?
2. Buy more Wyndham resale and stay at gold?
3. Buy other timeshares (fixed weeks, Disney, Worldmark, etc.)?

How do others feel about the decision to go Platinum vs. the 3 options above?

And when renting, what is the going rate? For example if someone wants to rent a 254,000 point unit, do you aim to get at least .006% of that or what?


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

I did go to Platinum from gold.  It was what I was going to do when I walked into the sales office if a good deal was presented to me.  I got a good enough deal and started making the savings right away.  This was before the guest confirmation charges so that is an added benefit now.  

Going from Gold to Platinum can work if you rent your units out or if you mostly use them for personal use.  

The most important thing is I knew it was what I wanted to do. If you do not know that then it is probably not for you.


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> ...And when renting, what is the going rate? For example if someone wants to rent a 254,000 point unit, do you aim to get at least .006% of that or what?



I have a friend who I can call right now that will get me a ressie that takes him 254,000 pts to get and my cost will be $1375.

How does that stack up againt your MFs for that many points, I have no idea.


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

Also, earlier this year I rented from an owner for $3/1,000 pts plus $130 at 10 months out.

These are who you are competing with.


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

*A.Win*

Thanks for the examples. Those seem like situations where rich friends (rich in points at least) are doing you a favor.

Are you sure these deals are available to EVERYBODY at ANYTIME?

If that is the case, then renting is better than buying resale.


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Thanks for the examples. Those seem like situations where rich friends (rich in points at least) are doing you a favor.
> 
> Are you sure these deals are available to EVERYBODY at ANYTIME?
> 
> If that is the case, then renting is better than buying resale.



No favor, this is a friendship formed here on TUG and available to all when the points are available.

The $3/K is no longer there, I found it in the TUG classifieds last summer and we got a nice unit for July 5 this year at Edisto Island.

The $5/K ads are in the TUG classifieds frequently.  Now if I were to book inside the discount period from a VIP, their cost would be much lower and they'd make some money.

http://tug2.com/timesharemarketplac...roomsMin=&BathroomsMax=&SleepsMin=&SleepsMax=

The ad fourth from the bottom is a good example of what you can find.


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## comicbookman (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Thanks for this honest feedback. So when you were gold, in hindsight, which action would you take?
> 1. Buy nothing else?
> 2. Buy more Wyndham resale and stay at gold?
> 3. Buy other timeshares (fixed weeks, Disney, Worldmark, etc.)?



Option 2.  based on the way we use the points, the net effect would be about the same for us if we had stayed gold and we would still have the money we paid.  That does not mean it would be that way for everyone.  We rarely rent, although we have in the past.


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## csxjohn (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> ..If that is the case, then renting is better than buying resale.



I forgot to mention, this is my current plan.  Why pay MFs and have a commitment when I can rent this cheaply.  

I'll take advantage of it while I can.


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> I'll take advantage of it while I can.



From a landlord's persective, $5/1,000 seems a bit low, even for platinum members. i think 6 is more reasonable. i think you are implying that as MFs continue to increase, the days of getting 5 may be limited. eventually, the best deal will be 6... then 7...

I was leaning toward platinum at $30K. Now I think it will even have to be lower in order for me to buy. But comic's suggestion to buy resale is worth considering...

My friends bought the Disney timeshare/cruise package many years ago, and it has proven to be soooo valuable. The same package costs soooo much more now. I bought a Disney no-expiration ticket package in 2008 so cheaply long ago. I wish I had purchased a larger package back then.

I'd hate to think 10 years from now, that I should have upgraded to Platinum but didn't...  It might be double or triple the price to get Platinum later...

You never know what will happen...


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## uscav8r (Mar 20, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> I forgot to mention, this is my current plan.  Why pay MFs and have a commitment when I can rent this cheaply.
> 
> I'll take advantage of it while I can.



I think the key here, John, is that you have flexibility in when you can travel. If locked into the school vacation cycle, it might be more advantageous to own at least some, and maybe rent from others for the balance.


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Thanks for the examples. Those seem like situations where rich friends (rich in points at least) are doing you a favor.
> 
> Are you sure these deals are available to EVERYBODY at ANYTIME?
> 
> If that is the case, then renting is better than buying resale.



I'm able to profit doing that. In fact it's all profit no mf at all
How you ask? 
I make high value reservations. Cancel and rebook for the discount and rent them.The rent covers the mf for the original reservation so the cancelled points are "free" these are the 3 and  4 dollar a thousand rentals. And whether it's 3 or more depends on how many points I have to move and how close to the end of the year we are

For now I don't have anything to rent. No more points until the transfer dept finishes working on my newest contracts


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## A.Win (Mar 20, 2014)

I follow your logic. The main thing is that your cost to platinum was so darn low. Most of us spent $70K or more to become platinum.


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I follow your logic. The main thing is that your cost to platinum was so darn low. Most of us spent $70K or more to become platinum.



If you paid $70000 you will never make that back  ..think return on investment but forget  a return of your investment.

The people I know that do this seriously didnt pay much for their points. Some were able to PIC an unlimited number of weeks. The folks that did,(pay 70000) are only looking for an offset to their maintenance fees.


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## lcml11 (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> From a landlord's persective, $5/1,000 seems a bit low, even for platinum members. i think 6 is more reasonable. i think you are implying that as MFs continue to increase, the days of getting 5 may be limited. eventually, the best deal will be 6... then 7...
> 
> I was leaning toward platinum at $30K. Now I think it will even have to be lower in order for me to buy. But comic's suggestion to buy resale is worth considering...
> 
> ...



If not more.


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> I'm able to profit doing that. In fact it's all profit no mf at all
> How you ask?
> I make high value reservations. Cancel and rebook for the discount and rent them.The rent covers the mf for the original reservation so the cancelled points are "free" these are the 3 and  4 dollar a thousand rentals. And whether it's 3 or more depends on how many points I have to move and how close to the end of the year we are



A different view than mine.


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

am1 said:


> A different view than mine.



Different than most Id guess.  My goal is to make a deal not a killing.  If I can make a little each day, Im usually in pretty good shape at the end of the year


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Different than most Id guess.  My goal is to make a deal not a killing.  If I can make a little each day, Im usually in pretty good shape at the end of the year



I am sure you have your reasons but at $3/k there is too much effort, risk and other opportunities with the points to go that route.


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2014)

am1 said:


> I am sure you have your reasons but at $3/k there is too much effort, risk and other opportunities with the points to go that route.



no effort, John calls and we make a deal


Seriously, it would be too much effort if all I had was a few million points, But this is what I do every morning, and I have three travel agencies that bring me customers...They do the heavy lifting

Ive already made my money for the year, and the money is in the bank. All my  points are  in reservations. . What Im doing now is just waiting for my new contracts  to close,,,and then do it again


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 20, 2014)

A.Win said:


> ...Will I be able to rent well or only cover the MF? There are so many variables to platinum ownership!



This is like asking "can i make money in the stock market"? The answer is yes as long as you know what your doing (where to rent and when) and get lucky once in a while. 

Jason


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## Bigrob (Mar 20, 2014)

I won't try to talk you into or out of this decision. I'll just give you my perspective. I have, by trial and error, figured a few things out and like a few others that have posted here, found ways to rent. My approach is undoubtedly different from most and I won't go into it here.

If it were strictly for personal use, I wouldn't even consider contemplating a move from gold to platinum unless there was a way to do it cheaply. As Ron mentioned, the loophole to do it cheaply is gone. I'm going to assume you already PIC'd 2 3BR's pulling 254K each. If not, upgrade your PICs (you should be able to replace a PIC without a new retail purchase but it may take a few calls to make it happen). 

I had use of a platinum account for a period of time but lost it and am back to "only" gold. As others have said, there is not a huge difference - the biggest thing is the extra 15 days of upgrade window. 5 extra guest certificates, but if you're primarily using it for personal use that might not be a big difference. The point savings difference is more dramatic when you can book and upgrade at the same time at day 60.

If you had 5M points in the account and were renting a bunch, it would make sense. But based on what you've described, you might just want to pick up some more resale points cheap.


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 20, 2014)

ronparise said:


> no effort, John calls and we make a deal
> 
> 
> Seriously, it would be too much effort if all I had was a few million points, But this is what I do every morning, and I have three travel agencies that bring me customers...They do the heavy lifting
> ...



You saving any of these for me? Lol

Jason


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## A.Win (Mar 21, 2014)

Bigrob and comic have suggested I buy resale and after some deliberation, I agree. Based on my desire for mostly personal use and minimal renting, this is the better approach.

Aside from saving $30-50K for the upgrade, I won't be locked into a lifetime commitment of trying to recoup the investment. If I buy resale, I can get rid of it at any time. 

Platinum would make more sense if I wanted to rent much more... and pick up more than 1 million points. At this point, I definitely don't want to go there.

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT!


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## Bigrob (Mar 21, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Bigrob and comic have suggested I buy resale and after some deliberation, I agree. Based on my desire for mostly personal use and minimal renting, this is the better approach.
> 
> Aside from saving $30-50K for the upgrade, I won't be locked into a lifetime commitment of trying to recoup the investment. If I buy resale, I can get rid of it at any time.
> 
> ...



I just noticed you own at Massanutten... Is that what you pic'd?


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## lcml11 (Mar 21, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Thanks for the examples. Those seem like situations where rich friends (rich in points at least) are doing you a favor.
> 
> Are you sure these deals are available to EVERYBODY at ANYTIME?
> 
> If that is the case, then renting is better than buying resale.



You are right that renting can be better than buying resale.  You just need a stable source of supply over a  1 to 5 year time frame.


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## A.Win (Mar 21, 2014)

lcml11 said:


> You are right that renting can be better than buying resale.  You just need a stable source of supply over a  1 to 5 year time frame.



Renting may be better than resale for a regular owner.
But as GOLD VIP already, buying resale will be better than renting for me.

Bigrob - I have 2 2-BR Mass units Picked. Will try to change that to 2 4-br units. When I asked last year, they said not possible. That will be 508K instead of 308K points. I have learned that there are better units to PIC out there, but I've been too lazy to seek them. 

If I buy resale, I will aim for National Harbor. Low MFs and close to home. 

Finally, sales will try hard to push me to Platinum somehow. I suspect they will pitch Club Pass, the estate planning thing, and lie to me about other small benefits. Am I missing any big differences between platinum vs. resale? I'll try hard not to fall for their sales tricks!


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## lcml11 (Mar 21, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Renting may be better than resale for a regular owner.
> But as GOLD VIP already, buying resale will be better than renting for me.
> 
> Bigrob - I have 2 2-BR Mass units Picked. Will try to change that to 2 4-br units. When I asked last year, they said not possible. That will be 508K instead of 308K points. I have learned that there are better units to PIC out there, but I've been too lazy to seek them.
> ...



You are probably going to find that they will only let you upgrade your PICs with a new purchase.  If you go that route, Ron is right, look at Wyndham Resale contracts to do this.  I am assuming the PIC rules still can be used.  There has been some chatter about something called PIC Express.  Do not understand it at this point.  Do not know if the old PIC rules are now gone.

Per Owner Care, A new purchase can get you in PIC under the Old PIC rules or under Pick Express.  A purchase has to also be done if PIC Express is used.


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## Whoozr (Mar 21, 2014)

*curious about PIC*

How would one know which timeshare locations are best to use for turning PIC weeks into Wyndham points?  I thought about purchasing a Massanutten timeshare for personal use but it would rather buy it resale and then use it to maintain my VIP level with Wyndham.  I currently have a temporary Silver VIP membership and would like to hang on to it as cheaply as possible.  Doesn't have a lot of benefits but I like the ability to upgrade to the next level of rooms and the points discount.  If I have to give it up, oh well it was good while it lasted.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 21, 2014)

See Page 347 of  Directory for   the  allocation  chart.

Keep in mind to PIC   a new purchase you would probably have to buy around 105K Developer points for ball park $17-$18K.  If salesperson knows  you are going to PIC will probably ask higher price.  Factor in MF on resale  purchase  and  new purchase would cost  over $1,000 in MF  and lost earnings on  say $18K  and  very pricey!

Of  course,  Wyndham gets $89 fee!


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## Bigrob (Mar 23, 2014)

A.Win said:


> Renting may be better than resale for a regular owner.
> But as GOLD VIP already, buying resale will be better than renting for me.
> 
> Bigrob - I have 2 2-BR Mass units Picked. Will try to change that to 2 4-br units. When I asked last year, they said not possible. That will be 508K instead of 308K points. I have learned that there are better units to PIC out there, but I've been too lazy to seek them.
> ...



Please review your PIC contract carefully. You can expect sales to tell you that you'll need a new purchase, but check the language of the contract. You may find that you are allowed to substitute without an additional purchase. I think you'll still fall short, but if the difference is 105K instead of 300K points, it might be enough of a difference to reconsider. 

Don't close your mind to other resale opportunities besides National Harbor. Low MFs but pretty high upfront costs for resale. You can get nearly free contracts at Smoky Mountains, for example and get either a lot more points or spend a lot less. Smoky Mountains is right about $5/K so is still below average.

There's no telling what Sales is likely to say in trying to get you to buy something. Just remember they don't feel at all compelled to stick to factual statements. I think you already know the main differences between gold and platinum. It really boils down to 3 things: a 50% discount instead of 35% at the discount window; the upgrade window opens at day 60 instead of day 45; and you get 20 more guest certificates (the statement that platinum gets 15 and gold gets 10 is technically correct, but platinum gets 15 for the first 1M and another 15 for any points over 1M up to 2M, so assuming you don't get exactly 1M points but go a little over, you will get 20 additional GCs for a total of 30).

Other things they pitch are worthless (get your maintenance fees paid with the Wyndham credit card! rent your excess points with extra holidays!) so pay no attention to it.


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## lcml11 (Mar 23, 2014)

Smoky Mountain is a excellent choice for a re-sale contract.  There are a few that are currently available on E-Bay.  It is a great resort whether you use it or just use your points.


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## A.Win (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks to TUGG, I turned down the opportunity to upgrade to Platinum. Your predictions were quite accurate.

To buy the 300K points I needed, I had to pay about $50K more for CWA. Once I said no to that, they found a creative way to reduce that cost quite a bit. It was very very tempting, but it involved higher MFs at a less desirable location. 

Unless I want to become a mega renter and add 2 million or more points, it just isn't worth it.

If/when I need more points or weeks in the future, I will buy resale, I could rent from another owner, or I could buy fixed weeks, use RCI, or other exchanges.


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## ronparise (Apr 17, 2014)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You saving any of these for me? Lol
> 
> Jason



Im using some of what Im learning here to bring my 3rd account to Platinum. Its yours when and if I can do it, of course you know what I want in exchange


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## ronparise (Apr 17, 2014)

There's a nice National Harbor contract closing on ebay in an hour,,,get your bid to  esnipe soon


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## Bigrob (Apr 17, 2014)

Too rich for me sadly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Apr 17, 2014)

ronparise said:


> There's a nice National Harbor contract closing on ebay in an hour,,,get your bid to  esnipe soon



Just put my bid in.  No mention of paying the mfs that have already been paid for 2014.  

five figures


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## Bigrob (Apr 17, 2014)

Did you get it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Apr 17, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> Did you get it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Missed out by $300.  Not a big deal.  3 bidders in front of me.


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## ronparise (Apr 17, 2014)

am1 said:


> Missed out by $300.  Not a big deal.  3 bidders in front of me.



sorry if I drew some unwanted competition to the auction.


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## jeffwill (Apr 17, 2014)

After 15 years, I'm so glad I'm out of Wyndham all together.  My Ego for Platinum is out of my mind.  

I now have over 300k RCI points and get last minute Gold Crowns (50k pts.) for only 7500 pts.  Do the math-- 40 weeks @ $199.  With prepaid MF's on my purchases-- I don't have MF's till av. 2017.

It works for me.


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## Vacationfuntips (Apr 18, 2014)

Here is my view.  Hold tight to your money.  Listen to the advice of those who have done the numbers.  You can rent from someone else if you want another vacation and it may even be cheaper than the points or maintenance fees that you would pay?  Rentals are not easy!  There are just way too many people selling vacations on ebay, Craig's List and other places for way too cheap.  

There is too much competition in the timeshare world for sought after dates, even with ARP and there is lots of planning involved.  Look and study ebay SOLD prices - not just active listings.  

I used to look at rental prices and ask myself how can these people sell vacations for under the cost of their maintenance fees using x amount of points, get guest confirmations, pay end of auction fees, answer all of those questions, etc...?  

Some people have mastered the system, and they do very well for themselves!  The higher your purchase price and maintenance fees - the harder you must work to figure out how are you going to use, rent, give or loose those points? Will your strategy work well for you?

If you want more vacations for you, think very carefully before buying any more points contracts or even CWA.   You can still borrow your own points from a future use year.  You can credit pool and save points for that special trip, or even buy yourself some time -3 years with the credit pool feature to figure out how you will use the points that you already have? 

RCI is another great way to get some fabulous vacations using last call - a week for under $300. With RCI Last Call,  there are No exchange fees and you DO NOT use up any Wyndham points to do it!   Additionally, RCI extra vacations has great deals when they run specials.  Plus, RCI has specials/ promotions for $199 vacations. 

With all of the rentals and deals out there - do you really need more points?   

Cynthia T.


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## am1 (Apr 18, 2014)

ronparise said:


> sorry if I drew some unwanted competition to the auction.



Naw I only knew about it as I saw it on here.


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## jeffwill (Apr 18, 2014)

Well said Cynthia.  DONT SPEND MORE MONEY.  Learn how to accomplish what you want, with what you already have.  My system works for me.  Ron's works for him.  There are MANY more examples.


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