# Does it matter [where you bought your points from]



## Lipekerri (Jul 4, 2017)

where you bought your points from? If so, how? New to this and just curious.


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## 55plus (Jul 4, 2017)

It doesn't matter - points are points. What does matters is that you saved tens of thousands of dollars if you bought resell.


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## nicemann (Jul 4, 2017)

Only time it matters where your points are for is if you need to use ARP.  At 10 months, points are points.  I have resell CWA points but in the future I will make sure to buy the cheapest MFs I can found.


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## uscav8r (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> where you bought your points from? If so, how? New to this and just curious.





55plus said:


> It doesn't matter - points are points. What does matters is that you saved tens of thousands of dollars if you bought resell.



In terms of using your points, it really does not matter if you bought them directly from Wyndham or from the resale market. 

It does matter WHERE you bought into in terms of owning at a specific resort or owning CWA points, for ARP purposes. The resort owned (or CWA) also can make a big difference in terms of maintenance fees. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tschwa2 (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> where you bought your points from? If so, how? New to this and just curious.


Are you asking about retail vs resale or points at one resort vs another vs CWA?


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## Lipekerri (Jul 4, 2017)

We own 400k points (some given as a bonus from Wyndham when we purchased). We'd looked into buying and found someone giving away 126k points. We were curious if those 126k mattered or if they just went into our points account.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> where you bought your points from? If so, how? New to this and just curious.



ARP (Advanced Reservation Priority) lets you book at your home resort at 13 months. This matters for high priority locations like Glacier Canyon in summer, Florida beaches in winter, ski areas in February, etc. It gives you a three month headstart om non owners of that resort. So if you want to go to Glacier Canyon for 4th of July NEXT year you could have already booked it if you owned there. The rest of us would be waiting for Sept. 4 to be able to book it.

At ten months points are points. Doesn't matter where you own, if they are resale, a developer purchase or you rented them. They all spend the same.

CWA ( Club Wyndham Access) gives you ARP at 60+ resorts. A nice benefit. However, you are competing against tens of thousands of other owners of CWA for prime inventory. When you are deeded at a specific resort you compete only against the other owners of that resort's deeds.

Maintenance fee rates vary wildly in the Wyndham system. Some are very low, some are very high. CWA is a bit above average. KNOW THE MAINTENANCE FEE RATE BEFORE YOU BUY. For example, my maintenance fee rate averages about $4.25/1000 points. CWA is roughly $6.30/1000. So, if I wanted to go to a place that would cost 200,000 points for my stay that would be $900 spent on my part, but a CWA owner would be spending $1260. A big difference.

As a wise old sage once said ( well maybe he said it a thousand times) there are two factors in buying resale points. ARP and maintenance fees. If there is a resort that is very popular and you want to go there every year you BUY THAT RESORT. MF's be damned. If you don't care where you go or when you BUY THE LOWEST MF RATE CONTRACT YOU CAN FIND.


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## nuwermj (Jul 4, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> CWA ( Club Wyndham Access) gives you ARP at 60+ resorts. A nice benefit. However, you are competing against tens of thousands of other owners of CWA for prime inventory. When you are deeded at a specific resort you compete only against the other owners of that resort's deeds.



Are the deeded inventories and the CWA inventory at each specific resort keep separate in the ARP period? In other words, is it the case that CWA points can make reservations only for inventory controlled by the trust fund and have no access to the deeded inventory? 
I understand that at 10 months all inventory is pooled.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> We own 400k points (some given as a bonus from Wyndham when we purchased). We'd looked into buying and found someone giving away 126k points. We were curious if those 126k mattered or if they just went into our points account.


At 10 months prior they would be treated exactly like the other points in your account.  When looking at cheap and free points you do need to take a look at where they are deeded because some locations/contracts have much higher Mf's than others.


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## Lipekerri (Jul 4, 2017)

The points are at Fairfield Plantation in GA. 120k with a $70 a month MF. We realize we will need more points after 2018 (when our 'bonus' points with Wyndham expire) but we want to be wise too.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 4, 2017)

That's around $7 per 1000 or $840 a year.  If you could find one closer to $5 per 1000 points, you would save $240 per year in MF for those 120,000 points.  Points at $5 or lower will probably cost more upfront and are likely not to be free.  You may be able to find something closer to $6 per 1000 and you would still save $120 per year.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

nuwermj said:


> Are the deeded inventories and the CWA inventory at each specific resort keep separate in the ARP period? In other words, is it the case that CWA points can make reservations only for inventory controlled by the trust fund and have no access to the deeded inventory?
> I understand that at 10 months all inventory is pooled.


That is the way it is supposed to work. Some here are beginning to think that is not the case. It remains to be seen one way or the other, but they are supposed to be separate.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 4, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> That is the way it is supposed to work. Some here are beginning to think that is not the case. It remains to be seen one way or the other, but they are supposed to be separate.


Did the trust move out of CWA?


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## Nomad34 (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> The points are at Fairfield Plantation in GA. 120k with a $70 a month MF. We realize we will need more points after 2018 (when our 'bonus' points with Wyndham expire) but we want to be wise too.


We live outside Atlanta and enjoy Villa Rica but now enjoy the Smokies more and find the MF are much cheaper there. My highest is Daytona(over $100 for 192k and Branson for $6+ for 105k average 6.5 overall. /k and satisfied as silver owner.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> The points are at Fairfield Plantation in GA. 120k with a $70 a month MF. We realize we will need more points after 2018 (when our 'bonus' points with Wyndham expire) but we want to be wise too.


We need to sell by 2018


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## Lipekerri (Jul 4, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> We need to sell by 2018



PM me with more info.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 4, 2017)

Not sure how. Fb zoenewby


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## whitewater (Jul 4, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> where you bought your points from? If so, how? New to this and just curious.


*Short answer:*  No (my opinion)

Read the advice articles at top of the Wyndham Thread.
*Read up and all will become clear:* http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/sticky-wyndham-information-and-advice-articles.128302/

All that concerns wyndham and pros / very few cons of buying resale are listed in great detail.  Read, and re-read then once you think you understand, read again.   

trust me.  Its not worth committing yourself and family to something you don't understand or want.


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## cayman01 (Jul 4, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> Did the trust move out of CWA?



Think of CWA as a different owner ship. They should have a different point bucket. Just like at resorts the Worldmark and Wyndham share. You cannot rent Wyndham's inventory with Worldmark points. Same idea in theory. However, some are theorizing that the new website is not distinguishing between home resort points and CWA points. No defining evidence either way yet, but suspicions have been raised.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 4, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Think of CWA as a different owner ship. They should have a different poini cab stikkk onkyt bucket. Just like at resorts the Worldmark and Wyndham share. You cannot rent Wyndham's inventory with Worldmark points. Same idea in theory. However, some are theorizing that the new website is not distinguishing between home resort points and CWA points. No defining evidence either way yet, but suspicions have been raised.


I can still only view the new website using my old user ID after I register they just tell me oops nothing here for you and then it goes back to the old ID. I was at the lodge in May a year ago and cautioned not to get rid of my deeds. I believe there is something happening.


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## Baby Jane (Jul 8, 2017)

nuwermj said:


> Are the deeded inventories and the CWA inventory at each specific resort keep separate in the ARP period? In other words, is it the case that CWA points can make reservations only for inventory controlled by the trust fund and have no access to the deeded inventory?
> I understand that at 10 months all inventory is pooled.


It is definitely seperate because as CWA owner rarely is there inventory at high demand resorts prime weeks. They will tell me oh sorry yes you do have access at 13 months but inventory is limited


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## dagger1 (Jul 8, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Only time it matters where your points are for is if you need to use ARP.  At 10 months, points are points.  I have resell CWA points but in the future I will make sure to buy the cheapest MFs I can found.


You are considering buying even more Wyndham points?


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## kbosch74 (Jul 9, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> ARP (Advanced Reservation Priority) lets you book at your home resort at 13 months. This matters for high priority locations like Glacier Canyon in summer, Florida beaches in winter, ski areas in February, etc. It gives you a three month headstart om non owners of that resort. So if you want to go to Glacier Canyon for 4th of July NEXT year you could have already booked it if you owned there. The rest of us would be waiting for Sept. 4 to be able to book it.
> 
> At ten months points are points. Doesn't matter where you own, if they are resale, a developer purchase or you rented them. They all spend the same.
> 
> ...




Great explanation!  (On behalf of the original poster, thank you for taking the time.)


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## Lisa P (Jul 9, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Only time it matters where your points are for is if you need to use ARP.  At 10 months, points are points.  I have resell CWA points but in the future I will make sure to buy the cheapest MFs I can found.





dagger1 said:


> You are considering buying even more Wyndham points?


I'm not "nicemann" above, but we also may purchase more resale Wyndham points in the future.  The resorts are nice.  Locations are good for us.  We know the program and how to avoid excess fees.  We expect the annoying computer issues to eventually be worked out.  Hopefully, all the rest of this mess for others here will also be resolved soon - it's awful!

I guess we are among those who completely avoid the sales weasels and quietly enjoy our timeshare vacations, using Wyndham points.  Since we don't care about VIP benefits, and we are not huge points-owners, we have escaped the big hassles experienced by some here.  The product itself has worked well for us.  So yes, we may consider buying more resale points in the future.


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## dagger1 (Jul 9, 2017)

Lisa P said:


> I'm not "nicemann" above, but we also may purchase more resale Wyndham points in the future.  The resorts are nice.  Locations are good for us.  We know the program and how to avoid excess fees.  We expect the annoying computer issues to eventually be worked out.  Hopefully, all the rest of this mess for others here will also be resolved soon - it's awful!
> 
> I guess we are among those who completely avoid the sales weasels and quietly enjoy our timeshare vacations, using Wyndham points.  Since we don't care about VIP benefits, and we are not huge points-owners, we have escaped the big hassles experienced by some here.  The product itself has worked well for us.  So yes, we may consider buying more resale points in the future.


I agree that Wyndham will eventually get their website issues worked out.  And I agree, we have great vacations with our CWA points, and have another six weeks with family/friends through the end of this year.  We have supplemented our Wyndham points with Hyatt deeded fixed weeks/units for vacations that will be annual for the next 7-10 years.  The Wyndham VIP's are the folks most negatively impacted, at least that's what it looks like right now.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2017)

Lisa P said:


> I'm not "nicemann" above, but we also may purchase more resale Wyndham points in the future.  The resorts are nice.  Locations are good for us.  We know the program and how to avoid excess fees.  We expect the annoying computer issues to eventually be worked out.  Hopefully, all the rest of this mess for others here will also be resolved soon - it's awful!
> 
> I guess we are among those who completely avoid the sales weasels and quietly enjoy our timeshare vacations, using Wyndham points.  Since we don't care about VIP benefits, and we are not huge points-owners, we have escaped the big hassles experienced by some here.  The product itself has worked well for us.  So yes, we may consider buying more resale points in the future.


I'm in the market myself for additional points.
I'm planning on that the timeshare side will get split off from Wyndham. The new  CEO from Hilton will ride the ship.
I for one believe all of us will benefit from getting rid of Corparate Wyndham as it is today.

I don't know how such an incompetent Corp WYN can have such great resorts and resort staff.
All resorts that I have been to are very well managed and run.


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## chapjim (Jul 9, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> The Wyndham VIP's are the folks most negatively impacted, at least that's what it looks like right now.



Right -- the ones who spent the most money.


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## nicemann (Jul 9, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> You are considering buying even more Wyndham points?



Not just yet.  Waiting to see how everything goes with Wyndham and them fixing their transfer title issues and also the website issues.  Possible late this year or early next year.


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## Railman83 (Jul 9, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Not just yet.  Waiting to see how everything goes with Wyndham and them fixing their transfer title issues and also the website issues.  Possible late this year or early next year.



The prices have definitely gone down since the website issues and the stuff posted on eBay is skewing to smaller points and high mf contacts.   I just bought 154k at national harbor for closing costs.   I think the big points holders are waiting before selling, and the buyers are more cautious.   So demand is low but supply seems even lower.   If I were looking to buy, I would buy while the system is still screwed up with no end in sight now.  Blood in the streets ala Warren Buffet.

I was considering waiting for the Ron's to start unloading but, clearly, the first portfolio of his is priced at fair market value and not like some bargains I've seen, albeit smaller contracts.

Unfortunately I have 7 contracts and about a million points purchased off Tug and eBay between Feb and June that have yet to close. I am almost resigned to dumping them in RCI as it will likely take until December at current rate of transfer (assuming the points even attach correctly).

I think I'm done buying at 11 contacts and 1.3 M points.   If I go more I'll probably shift to Worldmark for coverage out west.


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## ronparise (Jul 9, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> The prices have definitely gone down since the website issues and the stuff posted on eBay is skewing to smaller points and high mf contacts.   I just bought 154k at national harbor for closing costs.   I think the big points holders are waiting before selling, and the buyers are more cautious.   So demand is low but supply seems even lower.   If I were looking to buy, I would buy while the system is still screwed up with no end in sight now.  Blood in the streets ala Warren Buffet.
> 
> I was considering waiting for the Ron's to start unloading but, clearly, the first portfolio of his is priced at fair market value and not like some bargains I've seen, albeit smaller contracts.
> 
> ...




Ron's already out, as are several other formerly big points owners (30 million points and up) owners that I know. But the really big renters didnt own anything, they are the points managers. Their clients were for the most part small points owners that just wanted to cover their maintenance fees.  Since the points managers are no longer able to promise that, I predict many of these owners will use ovation to get rid of what they own.I also predict that Wyndham will put the timeshare liquidation companies out of business or at least keep them out of Wyndham.  I mean why would anyone pay to dump their Wyndham contracts when they can just give them back through ovation. Ultimately I think Wyndham will pay to get points back if they have to

Slowly but surely Wydham will get control of the secondary market and if they do, what might end up on ebay will go for more than nothing. Wyndham has always been willing to pay up to 15% of what they are able to get for this stuff (cost of goods sold) If that number holds and they sell for $200/1000 points, the secondary market price could easily go to  $30/1000

So the message is... If you want more points buy them now.


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## Roger830 (Jul 9, 2017)

There's nothing more difficult to predict than the future, but  guess is Wyndham resale points will always be cheap.

There are too many points and too many disgruntled owners.


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## Railman83 (Jul 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Ron's already out, as are several other formerly big points owners (30 million points and up) owners that I know. But the really big renters didnt own anything, they are the points managers. Their clients were for the most part small points owners that just wanted to cover their maintenance fees.  Since the points managers are no longer able to promise that, I predict many of these owners will use ovation to get rid of what they own.I also predict that Wyndham will put the timeshare liquidation companies out of business or at least keep them out of Wyndham.  I mean why would anyone pay to dump their Wyndham contracts when they can just give them back through ovation. Ultimately I think Wyndham will pay to get points back if they have to
> 
> Slowly but surely Wydham will get control of the secondary market and if they do, what might end up on ebay will go for more than nothing. Wyndham has always been willing to pay up to 15% of what they are able to get for this stuff (cost of goods sold) If that number holds and they sell for $200/1000 points, the secondary market price could easily go to  $30/1000
> 
> So the message is... If you want more points buy them now.




One way to close gap between developer and resale is to lower developer price. The other way is to make resale worth more.  Disney is 50% or better on resale market.   Wyndham won't get there but maybe closer to where Worldmark is?  I agree with Ron, but now or pay more later.


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## ronparise (Jul 9, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> One way to close gap between developer and resale is to lower developer price. The other way is to make resale worth more.  Disney is 50% or better on resale market.   Wyndham won't get there but maybe closer to where Worldmark is?  I agree with Ron, but now or pay more later.



To my way of thinking, the top for secondary market prices will be defined by the rental market. If maintenance fees are less than comparable rentals than that timeshare is worth something. How much it is worth depends on how much less the maintenance fees are

I like a 5 year amortization. So a timeshare is worth 5 times the difference between fair rental prices and maintenance fees

An example: certain weeks in a New Orleans hotel cost about $2000. Maintenance fees for a one bedroom at labelle Maison are about $1200 a week. The difference  times 5 is $4000. I should be willing to pay about $4000 for 200000 points.  That's $20/1000. And that's what I think Wyndham points are worth to someone that will use them for family vacations.  A renter will want to come in for less, as will a dealer.


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## Roger830 (Jul 9, 2017)

My average cost for each of my fixed weeks at Hollywood Beach Resort is just over $4000 per unit for weeks 4,5,6.
I'm guaranteed those unit-weeks and treated like a vip. Nobody hassles me to go to an update before giving me the hang tag.

There is no way I would ever consider paying that much for a Wyndham week and I have a converted fixed week 7 at Sea Gardens and enough Nat Harbor and Panama City low mf points for another two weeks for less then $1000 out of pocket. That's about right.
My vacations have been ok, but I never know how I will be treated by Wyndham. My next move will be fewer points.


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## happyhopian (Jul 9, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> One way to close gap between developer and resale is to lower developer price. The other way is to make resale worth more.  Disney is 50% or better on resale market.   Wyndham won't get there but maybe closer to where Worldmark is?  I agree with Ron, but now or pay more later.



The reason Disney is 50% (and in some cases better) is because ALL rights transfer with secondary market purchase AND Disney hold a right of first refusal (ROFR) meaning the seller has to offer Disney the opportunity to buy the contract once they have an accepted offer from a buyer.

Disney contract would be higher than 50% if their contracts lasted forever but they do not. They expire after a certain amount of time, unlike Wyndham which is perpetual.

I know that Wyndham has run the numbers on this because I talked to a corp guy at an owners meeting a couple of years back and while he didn't say so it was clear that they got back tons of inventory during the recession and therefore they are not looking for more than they can get through ovation. 

Wyndham could absolutely raise developer purchases and in fact prices if they did two things:
1. Allow all rights to transfer with resale purchases (since that value has been diminished this is more likely)
2. Change the rules to require a ROFR before approving any ownership transfers. This could significantly increase the secondary market, which Wyndham would then control pricing for and in fact this would then force people to consider  purchasing developer direct if the price isn't that different and they can get better financing options.

I know this will not happen, so don't beat me up over it but it is a workable model to improve their sales and their value.


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## Railman83 (Jul 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Ron's already out, as are several other formerly big points owners (30 million points and up) owners that I know. But the really big renters didnt own anything, they are the points managers. Their clients were for the most part small points owners that just wanted to cover their maintenance fees.  Since the points managers are no longer able to promise that, I predict many of these owners will use ovation to get rid of what they own.I also predict that Wyndham will put the timeshare liquidation companies out of business or at least keep them out of Wyndham.  I mean why would anyone pay to dump their Wyndham contracts when they can just give them back through ovation. Ultimately I think Wyndham will pay to get points back if they have to
> 
> Slowly but surely Wydham will get control of the secondary market and if they do, what might end up on ebay will go for more than nothing. Wyndham has always been willing to pay up to 15% of what they are able to get for this stuff (cost of goods sold) If that number holds and they sell for $200/1000 points, the secondary market price could easily go to  $30/1000
> 
> So the message is... If you want more points buy them now.



So Ron,now I have to ask, if you are out what are you doing on these boa


happyhopian said:


> The reason Disney is 50% (and in some cases better) is because ALL rights transfer with secondary market purchase AND Disney hold a right of first refusal (ROFR) meaning the seller has to offer Disney the opportunity to buy the contract once they have an accepted offer from a buyer.
> 
> Disney contract would be higher than 50% if their contracts lasted forever but they do not. They expire after a certain amount of time, unlike Wyndham which is perpetual.
> 
> ...




I would disagree that DVC is higher due to rofr and all rights do not transfer to resale.  They are higher because they have near monopoly pricing on WDW.   I have owned DVC for for 15 or so years and the on property experience at DVC is just so much better.   That is why I can rent DVC points for almost three times my MFs.   Not once in the last 20 renters has someone wanted points at non WDW resort DVC (e.g. Vero, Hilton Head).

Wyndham doesn't have that, but the surely could do better than 5 cents on dollar resale.


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## ronparise (Jul 10, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> So Ron,now I have to ask, if you are out what are you doing on these boa
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was helping a couple of guys become VIP and pick up what I was doing and I had hoped to broker Wyndham sales and rentals
However the new rules have called into question the wisdom of both those things


So I'm watching and waiting for an opportunity to present itself a


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## ronparise (Jul 10, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> The reason Disney is 50% (and in some cases better) is because ALL rights transfer with secondary market purchase AND Disney hold a right of first refusal (ROFR) meaning the seller has to offer Disney the opportunity to buy the contract once they have an accepted offer from a buyer.
> 
> Disney contract would be higher than 50% if their contracts lasted forever but they do not. They expire after a certain amount of time, unlike Wyndham which is perpetual.
> 
> ...



 Club Wyndham Access contracts already have ROFR. But Wyndham has never exercised their right

By the way, in a recent quarterly earnings call, Steve Holmes told the brokerage community that they were disappointed with the amount of inventory coming back through Ovation but that they had other innovative ways to get back inventory

I used to think that they were limited in what they take back by the capibility of the sales force. Now I'm not so sure. Wyndham has a big rental business. They can always rent what they can't sell


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## ecwinch (Jul 10, 2017)

Perhaps we meant the quality of inventory vs the quantity?  That they are getting the dogs rather than the resorts that are easy to sell.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 10, 2017)

You are right that we Wyndham VIPs are most negatively affected, but I still believe in justice and praying that we will soon be vindicated.


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## ronparise (Jul 10, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Perhaps we meant the quality of inventory vs the quantity?  That they are getting the dogs rather than the resorts that are easy to sell.




If folks here are right and most of the ovation takebacks are going to CWA. It didn't much matter where the deeds come from


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## phoejam (Jul 10, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> The prices have definitely gone down since the website issues and the stuff posted on eBay is skewing to smaller points and high mf contacts.   I just bought 154k at national harbor for closing costs.   I think the big points holders are waiting before selling, and the buyers are more cautious.   So demand is low but supply seems even lower.   If I were looking to buy, I would buy while the system is still screwed up with no end in sight now.  Blood in the streets ala Warren Buffet.
> 
> I was considering waiting for the Ron's to start unloading but, clearly, the first portfolio of his is priced at fair market value and not like some bargains I've seen, albeit smaller contracts.
> 
> ...


Im curious (and new) I hear about people like yourself in 1mil + pts...what does something like that cost you in MF?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 11, 2017)

phoejam said:


> Im curious (and new) I hear about people like yourself in 1mil + pts...what does something like that cost you in MF?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


If the MFs rate is $6.00 per thousand . 
1 million points is $6,000.00 per year MF


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## jhoug (Jul 11, 2017)

Some newer Wyndham contracts also have ROFR. I believe our National Harbor does.


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## CO skier (Jul 11, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> You are right that we Wyndham VIPs are most negatively affected, but I still believe in justice and praying that we will soon be vindicated.


It should be obvious by now that there is no going back to the old system of cancel/rebook/upgrade, which seems to be the most complaints from the VIPs.

How, exactly, do you foresee Wyndham VIPs being vindicated?  What does that even mean?


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## Railman83 (Jul 11, 2017)

phoejam said:


> Im curious (and new) I hear about people like yourself in 1mil + pts...what does something like that cost you in MF?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



If they ever come in it would be about $620 per month or $7500 per year.   I don't plan on renting but buying more, though I might go Worldmark.

I have a beachfront condo in Panama City I will retire too in three years that I currently rent out.  For June/July I get 12k.   For that 12k I can take Jan/Feb in Hawaii and tour US in June/July.   So my renting out my Condo for two months will pay for nice winter weather and cooler summer weather.   It is not an extravagance but cost neutral.  Also I make an absurd amount of money and will into retirement so it is not a significant part of my income.

The other thing that I did is I spread the points out over 11 contracts.  Normally that isn't a good idea as it will raise transaction costs.  For me, it allows to gradually pare down my ownership as I start to travel less as I age.  With the exception of a couple of contracts I bought before TUG, most have low fees (average overall is 5.5 per 1000).

One thing I learned from Ron is to have an exit strategy when you buy.  He used to joke his was to die with stripped contracts, but .apparently he got out with plan B

The other drawback of a lot of contracts is ARP is diluted, but since I will live at beach and don't plan on booking at another beach, I anticipate this won't be an issue.

Every story is different.   I don't plan on renting out points.  I have DVC points that I can rent out that pay for themselves and half of Wyndham to boot.

Also, if TUG is still around in 10 years I will likely start giving contracts away in coupled batches of MFs that are under 6 per 1000.

All this assumes my 7 open contracts actually close.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 11, 2017)

An XYZ Club of one whio joined for the fun times together with snacks and door prizes and no long pushy sales meetings. A club that was promoted by satisfied owners who were happy to tell others about enjoying vacations. Sales appreciate their members and encourage referrals but won't take advantage of them. Not a business for making money for yourself but sharing upgrades with friends to let them enjoy and want to join.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 11, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> If they ever come in it would be about $620 per month or $7500 per year.   I don't plan on renting but buying more, though I might go Worldmark.
> 
> I have a beachfront condo in Panama City I will retire too in three years that I currently rent out.  For June/July I get 12k.   For that 12k I can take Jan/Feb in Hawaii and tour US in June/July.   So my renting out my Condo for two months will pay for nice winter weather and cooler summer weather.   It is not an extravagance but cost neutral.  Also I make an absurd amount of money and will into retirement so it is not a significant part of my income.
> 
> ...





Railman83 said:


> If they ever come in it would be about $620 per month or $7500 per year.   I don't plan on renting but buying more, though I might go Worldmark.
> 
> I have a beachfront condo in Panama City I will retire too in three years that I currently rent out.  For June/July I get 12k.   For that 12k I can take Jan/Feb in Hawaii and tour US in June/July.   So my renting out my Condo for two months will pay for nice winter weather and cooler summer weather.   It is not an extravagance but cost neutral.  Also I make an absurd amount of money and will into retirement so it is not a significant part of my income.
> 
> ...


You have done well in your business of rentals paying for your MFs but not everyone has your expertise. Congratulations.


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## Railman83 (Jul 11, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> You have done well in your business of rentals paying for your MFs but not everyone has your expertise. Congratulations.



Well for timeshares I only rent the DVC which is the easiest things mf in the world as one post on mouseowners will bring in 10 times the people wanting to rent as I have points.  

The condo in PCB was bought at the bottom of the market when the BP oil spill was keeping people out of PCB even though not a drop of oil hit PCB.   This is the same for Wyndham points right now.   People seem to believe the website is permanent and are selling at what I believe is the bottom.  A small owner could buy up to a million points on the cheap if they chose wisely and rent out to cover with enough left over for a personal trip.....not easy, but looking just at EBay sold rentals based on the price fetched it can be done.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 11, 2017)

Nomad34 said:


> An XYZ Club of one whio joined for the fun times together with snacks and door prizes and no long pushy sales meetings. A club that was promoted by satisfied owners who were happy to tell others about enjoying vacations. Sales appreciate their members and encourage referrals but won't take advantage of them. Not a business for making money for yourself but sharing upgrades with friends to let them enjoy and want to join.


Thinking back again on my gold membership, I was the only one who used the system to c/b  my daughter and her family had to plan ahead for vacations I was retired. It was a game with me and it upset them so they pulled out. In a way,I guess, that is what I am doing. Pulling out and letting this ship sail or fail.


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## Roger830 (Jul 11, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> People seem to believe the website is permanent and are selling at what I believe is the bottom.  A small owner could buy up to a million points on the cheap if they chose wisely and rent out to cover with enough left over for a personal trip.....not easy, but looking just at EBay sold rentals based on the price fetched it can be done.



You are looking at half of the equation, the purchase at low cost.
Someone disenchanted is also unloading with a six figure loss. That won't end.

Here's a Midtown NY 622,000 that went for $5993 with closing. A highly desirable contract for arp and low mf. There's also plenty of cwa.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-Poi...201608?hash=item25da890088:g:nIIAAOSwRXRZVDXQ

Also, we don't know what rentals will fetch in the future or how high the mf will be.


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## Nomad34 (Jul 11, 2017)

ronparise said:


> To my way of thinking, the top for secondary market prices will be defined by the rental market. If maintenance fees are less than comparable rentals than that timeshare is worth something. How much it is worth depends on how much less the maintenance fees are
> 
> I like a 5 year amortization. So a timeshare is worth 5 times the difference between fair rental prices and maintenance fees
> 
> An example: certain weeks in a New Orleans hotel cost about $2000. Maintenance fees for a one bedroom at labelle Maison are about $1200 a week. The difference  times 5 is $4000. I should be willing to pay about $4000 for 200000 points.  That's $20/1000. And that's what I think Wyndham points are worth to someone that will use them for family vacations.  A renter will want to come in for less, as will a dealer.


Thank you. I agree they are worth more for family vacations and the one who had one part of my gold really lost out as she is planning to give it away. Hopefully she will hold on a little longer to find the family who will benefit.


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## ronparise (Jul 11, 2017)

Roger830 said:


> You are looking at half of the equation, the purchase at low cost.
> Someone disenchanted is also unloading with a six figure loss. That won't end.
> 
> Here's a Midtown NY 622,000 that went for $5993 with closing. A highly desirable contract for arp and low mf. There's also plenty of cwa.
> ...



His post talks about people selling at the bottom too

From the sellers perspective, if they bought from Wyndham at $200/1000 points it doesn't make much difference whether they sell for $20/1000 points or $5 or even if they pay a relief company to get rid of it. Any way you look at that, it's a big loss

But from the buyers perspective the difference between $5 and $20 is huge


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## Roger830 (Jul 11, 2017)

ronparise said:


> His post talks about people selling at the bottom too
> 
> From the sellers perspective, if they bought from Wyndham at $200/1000 points it doesn't make much difference whether they sell for $20/1000 points or $5 or even if they pay a relief company to get rid of it. Any way you look at that, it's a big loss
> 
> But from the buyers perspective the difference between $5 and $20 is huge



How do we know people are selling at the bottom?
Prices could go $1 or $0.50 or even less than $0.01, look at Westgate.

It might be better to wait for significant improvement and pay a little more, rather than buy now and get stuck if things don't improve and Ovation is curtailed.


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## ronparise (Jul 11, 2017)

Roger830 said:


> How do we know people are selling at the bottom?
> Prices could go $1 or $0.50 or even less than $0.01, look at Westgate.
> 
> It might be better to wait for significant improvement and pay a little more, rather than buy now and get stuck if things don't improve and Ovation is curtailed.




of course we dont know that this is the bottom or not.  When I was a stock broker I advised my clients that were trying to time the market that it couldnt be done...And I dont think it can be done with wyndham points either.   The best time to buy is now.. If you plan on a little 6 million point account, buy 500,000 a month for the next year

If your goals are something less than that, and you plan to hold for the long term; Whether you pay $1 or $10 per 1000 points in ten years the average cost per vacation is so low that it wont matter


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