# DC yearly dues increases



## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

I think it would be useful to list the DC's yearly dues potential increase. Since it is a new industry, most people do not look at what the dues may be in 5-10 years. I don't know the answer to these and have not had time to look over all the membership materials, so members please chime in and list what you know. I have also listed the refund policy. The reason why that is important is that if there is a 100% or greater than 100% refund policy, the DC may limit increases so you don't quit. If you joined at a low price point and they only give you 80% return, they will likely increase prices to the max and don't care if you quit. 

DC name, Yearly increase, Market adjust, Refund on exit   (CV= Current  Value)

ER ,       CPI + 4.5%,    Readjust to market every 10 years ,     80% refund


Lusso,    CPI + 3.5%,   Readjust to market every 5 years ,       100% + 50% increase in value

PE,         CPI + 2% ,           None,                                           100% or 80% depending on joining date

HCC,       CPI + 2%,                    None ,                                    80% CV or 80%, depending on joining date

QR , ?, ?                                                                             80% CV or 80%, depending on joining date

DHH,        CPI + 3.5%,         None,                                            80%, but you can transfer membership


BH , CPI + 5%, None ,                                                                              90% CV


Solstice, ?, ?,                                                          100% joining price or 80% CV,

UR,  ?, ?                                                                             80% CV


Can we fill in the blanks?

You can see how this makes a huge difference. If a DC has an adjustment to market, You will see a sticker shock at that point. For example. There are some ER Members who are Elite and pay $20,000 in yearly dues subject to only the yearly increase until they reach he ten year point. Then, there membership will jump to the then current level. The club is about 3 years old and the current yearly dues are already up to $34,900.  If this was their ten year point, their membership dues would jump from $20,000 to $34,900 or 75% in one year!!!

I think that this is very important information that I haven't seen before. Alot of these depend on when you joined, for example, Quintess was 80% of Current Value if you joined early but is now 80% of price paid. Early adopters certainly got many benefits, making a successful DC a very good deal.


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## saluki (Sep 14, 2007)

HCC = CPI + 2% (maximum increase)


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

saluki said:


> HCC = CPI + 2% (maximum increase)



Is there any adjust to market clause?


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## saluki (Sep 14, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Is there any adjust to market clause?



I don't recall any clause to that effect. How does that work?


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

saluki said:


> I don't recall any clause to that effect. How does that work?



ER and Lusso have a clause in the contract that states that the membership dues increases are limited to the CPI + a percentage. But in another clause, ER states that it can adjust the membership dues to ANY amount after ten years and Lusso has a clause that it can do this every 5 years. With ER, they won't care if the high increase in membership dues makes you quit, because they eliminate an old member that joined with a very low membership price and get to keep 20% of the price they paid. With Lusso, they will not be so anxious to raise the yearly dues out of control because they will have to refund you 100% of what you paid plus 50% of the increase in price. I think that Lusso will be more conservative in their price increases. I don't know if the other DC's have such clauses in their contracts. I don't have access to all the membership contracts. 
These numbers are probably the most important information  you need to join a club and has not been emphasized. The introductory rates and fess may be a tease and not as important for the long term.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 14, 2007)

interesting point.

also lusso still refunds 100% even if they stop the equity (+50% of increase) so that "non-incentive" will hold true for them.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 14, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> ER and Lusso have a clause in the contract that states that the membership dues increases are limited to the CPI + a percentage. But in another clause, ER states that it can adjust the membership dues to ANY amount after ten years and Lusso has a clause that it can do this every 5 years. With ER, they won't care if the high increase in membership dues makes you quit, because they eliminate an old member that joined with a very low membership price and get to keep 20% of the price they paid. With Lusso, they will not be so anxious to raise the yearly dues out of control because they will have to refund you 100% of what you paid plus 50% of the increase in price. I think that Lusso will be more conservative in their price increases. I don't know if the other DC's have such clauses in their contracts. I don't have access to all the membership contracts.
> These numbers are probably the most important information  you need to join a club and has not been emphasized. The introductory rates and fess may be a tease and not as important for the long term.



Thanks so much for bringing up this point.  I tried to raise this subject in an earlier post of mine, however, not nearly as eloquently as you did.  

The adjust to market clause is one of the fine print details that can turn a good DC membership into a nightmare.

I know the HCC agreement has a clause they can terminate your contrat at any time.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 14, 2007)

Compared to this year Marriott's timeshare annual dues price increases of 15% or more, all the destination clubs are looking even better.


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## travelguy (Sep 14, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> The adjust to market clause is one of the fine print details that can turn a good DC membership into a nightmare.
> 
> I know the HCC agreement has a clause they can terminate your contrat at any time.



FYI:

1. HCC has NO "adjust to market clause" in their membership contract.

2. They will eliminate the "termination" clause in the contract if you simply ask them.  It's only there as a last resort in case they have a member who refuses to abide by the membership rules and/or is destroying the properties and/or is interfering with the other members, etc.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 14, 2007)

Doug, thanks.  You have a PM.


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## LTTravel (Sep 14, 2007)

travelguy said:


> FYI:
> 
> 1. HCC has NO "adjust to market clause" in their membership contract.
> 
> 2. They will eliminate the "termination" clause in the contract if you simply ask them.  It's only there as a last resort in case they have a member who refuses to abide by the membership rules and/or is destroying the properties and/or is interfering with the other members, etc.



I have made the additions and will make any other additions if members get me the information. I think that this is very important information if someone is interested in a DC for the long haul. A difference of 2% in adjustment yearly compounds to a high percentage over 10 years and certainly an adjust to market is a huge consideration.


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 14, 2007)

Bellehavens maximum is cpi plus 5%.  There is no resetting of fees..


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## vineyarder (Sep 14, 2007)

I'd have to dig out my documents to be sure, but I think that PE is the same as HCC, namely CPI + 2% cap, but I am absolutely sure that there is no "adjust to market clause"... can you say "subprime mortgage crisis?"


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## LTTravel (Sep 15, 2007)

Recent adjustments made. Please let me know of any other or any errors.


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## TarheelTraveler (Sep 23, 2007)

Crescendo dues increases are limited to greater of 5% or CPI


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## vineyarder (Sep 23, 2007)

*PE maximum dues increase*

I just looked over my paperwork, and (at least when I joined) the maximum increase for PE is a fixed 5% per year, regardless of CPI, with no 'reset to market' clause...


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## LTTravel (Sep 23, 2007)

T & V, thanks for the info. It is too late for me to edit the original post. so:

Crescendo, 5% or CPI+ 0%, none?, 100% plus appreciation

PE, 5 %, none, 100% or 80% depending on joining date.


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## TarheelTraveler (Sep 23, 2007)

This is the kind of info. that ought to be put into a sticky.  I think it would be helpful to have comparisons of the different decision points.


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## vivalour (Jan 15, 2008)

HCC update: For recent memberships, the standard contracted increase is CPI+3%.


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## ArthurN (Feb 3, 2008)

*Insight on HCC Actual Dues Increases?*

Can anyone provide insight on actual % annual dues increase they have experienced with HCC?  I know that the current contract indicates a maximum of CPI + 3%.....what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not the "maximum" is always the increase charged. Thanks.


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## pwrshift (Feb 3, 2008)

After the annual fee increase was well covered on TUG, etc., *as CPI +2%*, did HCC just _'slip'_ the 3% into the new contracts they sold prior to Dec 1/07 without telling new members?  Bad show.


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## pwrshift (Feb 3, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Compared to this year Marriott's timeshare annual dues price increases of 15% or more, all the destination clubs are looking even better.


 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=433570&postcount=108

Bill, according to this post from a HOA board member, Marriott Beachplace is pretty much standing still in MF for 2008 over 2007 in spite of budgets to spend $8 million from the reserves for a complete (and overdue) refurb. So not all increases are higher than what you may be in for with DC yearly dues increases.

_*Platinum*:_
_Operating Fee: $592_
_Taxes: $200_
_Reserve Fee: $218_
_Total: $1,010_
_Reduction over 2007 fees: $2.88 (.3%)_

_*Gold*:_
_Operating Fee: $592_
_Taxes: $143_
_Reserve Fee: $218_
_Total: $953_
_Increase over 2007 fees: $14.14 (1.5%)_

So my prime time (Pres week to mid March) 'Holiday' bookings of 4 weeks in a row (split lockoff) facing the beach costs me $2,020 for 2008.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 3, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> After the annual fee increase was well covered on TUG, etc., *as CPI +2%*, did HCC just _'slip'_ the 3% into the new contracts they sold prior to Dec 1/07 without telling new members?  Bad show.



HCC now is charging all new members CPI + 3% max as the new rate....perhaps they will raise it to 4% or 5% in a year or so, who knows.

I am not aware of the exact date of the change and I am SURE that they did not just slip it in without telling prospective members. I have been a HCC member since 2006 and have witnessed three price increases in the membership fee and they were all well publicized. I have not kept current with all the minor details like new cap rates as I am locked into the old system.


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## pwrshift (Feb 3, 2008)

2% to 3% is a 50% increase.  ouch.


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## saluki (Feb 3, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> 2% to 3% is a 50% increase.  ouch.



That is some serious fuzzy math there.

Let's say your dues are $4300 & CPI is 3%:

CPI + 2% increase = new dues of $4515

CPI + 3% increase = new dues of $4558

Not exactly a 50% increase in dues.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 3, 2008)

saluki said:


> That is some serious fuzzy math there.
> 
> Let's say your dues are $4300 & CPI is 3%:
> 
> ...



Thus, new owners only pay $43 per year more than current owners.

You made the fuzzy math perfectly clear...

Now if my Marriott MMC would only stick to a CPI + 3% I would be very happy....the past two years it has gone up over 15%


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## Bourne (Feb 3, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> After the annual fee increase was well covered on TUG, etc., *as CPI +2%*, did HCC just _'slip'_ the 3% into the new contracts they sold prior to Dec 1/07 without telling new members?  Bad show.



Now you are killing me...

We all know you contacted HCC for a temp login/password to access inventory. 

We can also assume that you received a contract with CPI + 3%. 

The million dollar Q. Did you or did you not sign the contract. Wish you did. If not, it's still cool 

Almost time for kickoff...


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## DosMasCervesos (Feb 3, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> After the annual fee increase was well covered on TUG, etc., *as CPI +2%*, did HCC just _'slip'_ the 3% into the new contracts they sold prior to Dec 1/07 without telling new members?  Bad show.


I'm confused... are you saying that HCC pulled a fast one by changing the contract from CPI + 2% to CPI + 3%? Surely you carefully read all of the terms of your contract before you signed it, right?  

Matt


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## vineyarder (Feb 4, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> So my prime time (Pres week to mid March) 'Holiday' bookings of 4 weeks in a row (split lockoff) facing the beach costs me $2,020 for 2008.



That's great; sounds like it is perfect for you.  Given your situation (travelling alone, wanting to spend long (4 week) stretches in one destination, etc.), it certainly sounds like you have already found the ideal solution for you.  

I don't think that anyone here is trying to convince you that HCC or any other DC is better for you than what you are currently doing, as DC's are generally aimed at people who need more space, etc., such as families with kids.  

OTOH, while I still hold onto my Marriott Custom House TS to trade for points (which I only use at European Marriotts with room rates in excess of $400 pn), I love the extra space, extra luxury, concierge services, and ease of booking multiple destinations of a DC... so for our family a DC (or two) are a much better solution than a portfolio of timeshares.  To each their own...


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## Elsway (Feb 6, 2008)

_If a DC has an adjustment to market, You will see a sticker shock at that point. For example. There are some ER Members who are Elite and pay $20,000 in yearly dues subject to only the yearly increase until they reach he ten year point. Then, there membership will jump to the then current level. The club is about 3 years old and the current yearly dues are already up to $34,900.  If this was their ten year point, their membership dues would jump from $20,000 to $34,900 or 75% in one year!!!_

Going forward:  Assume ER increases dues by the maximum (CPI +4.5%).  And assume that CPI averages about 3.0%.  In this scenario, dues will more than double over a 10 year period.  ER's costs (if they increase in line with CPI) will rise by less than 35%.  It is not clear, in this case, that a mark-to-market will involve any increase in dues.  Marking-to-market, might actually involve a decrease in dues.

ER dues increased at an unsustainable rate over the past three years.  The early adopters got a good deal (in hindsight), but dues (and membership fees) have increased significantly in the past few years.  There is no question that the early adopters may face some amount of sticker shock at their 10 year anniversary - but it is far less plausible that those who join today will face a similar fate in 10 years.  (Dues for new members are unlikely to increase at such a rapid pace from current levels.)


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## pwrshift (Feb 6, 2008)

In ER's case it's a win-win situation for ER.  If you quit due to increases, ER keeps 20% of your membership fee ($80,000) and puts it toward their next location.


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## Bourne (Feb 6, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> In ER's case it's a win-win situation for ER.  If you quit due to increases, ER keeps 20% of your membership fee ($80,000) and puts it toward their next location.



What is this...a teaser post...


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## vineyarder (Feb 7, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> In ER's case it's a win-win situation for ER.  If you quit due to increases, ER keeps 20% of your membership fee ($80,000) and puts it toward their next location.



While your logic is correct, I cannot resist correcting your terminology; it is actually a 'win-lose' situation.  A 'win-win situation' refers to an outcome that is favorable to BOTH parties in a transaction.  In this case, ER would 'win' by getting rid of an early member that is paying below market dues, and also 'win' by getting to keep 20% of that members deposit.  If there is a waiting list for membership, then ER also 'wins' by getting to sign up a new member off the waitlist at a significantly higher deposit, of which they can immediately book a 20% profit.  So depending on the circumstances, it may be a 'double win' or even a 'triple win' for ER, but a 'lose' for the early ER member, making the transaction a 'win-lose' not a 'win-win'.  Sorry, just a pet peeve


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## pwrshift (Feb 7, 2008)

I thought a 'win-win for ER' covered the situation you suggest better than 'win-lose for ER'.    They don't lose at all ... only the member does.

By your peeve it's a 'win-win-win for ER' .... marginal difference IMO.


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## vineyarder (Feb 7, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> I thought a 'win-win for ER' covered the situation you suggest better than 'win-lose for ER'.    They don't lose at all ... only the member does.
> 
> By your peeve it's a 'win-win-win for ER' .... marginal difference IMO.



The key is that it is impossible to have a 'win-win' for ONE party; it is only a 'win-win' if BOTH parties have a favorable outcome.  In the case you describe, ER simply 'wins' and the member 'loses', but there is no 'win-win'.  In a 'win-win' situation, both parties walk away happy; clearly in this case the member would not be likely to be happy.  So the proper term would be a 'double win' or a 'triple win' for ER, which is vastly different than a 'win-win'.  A 'win-win-win' requires three parties, each of whom has a favorable outcome.


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## vivalour (Feb 7, 2008)

*????*



pwrshift said:


> I thought a 'win-win for ER' covered the situation you suggest better than 'win-lose for ER'.    They don't lose at all ... only the member does.
> 
> By your peeve it's a 'win-win-win for ER' .... marginal difference IMO.



Fallacious assumption, imo. You may be assuming that the member is like you, with your perspective, opinions, vacation requirements, etc.  OTOH,
they may not be like you --and feel that they got a very good deal, while it lasted, but their circumstances changed or they saw a better deal elsewhere.
Perhaps this hypothetical "sucker" even linked up with PerryM and bought into Perry's Paradise DC!!!  (At Founder's level, of course....)


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## 3DH (Feb 8, 2008)

OMG, I need a drink for even TRYING to follow those last few posts!  

I can tell you from experience, that it is truly a win for ER and a 20% hickey for the member leaving, as we have been there! You know, with that concept, it seems they truly don't care about members leaving, as they actually "gain" from that happening! Interesting...


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 9, 2008)

3DH said:


> a 20% hickey for the member leaving, as we have been there!



Hickey???...that is the "nicest" term I have seen to describe the "vampire bite" ER gives their members that decide to resign.

3DH...your are way too kind!


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## travelguy (Feb 11, 2008)

*THE Question?*



Bourne said:


> The million dollar Q. Did you or did you not sign the contract. Wish you did. If not, it's still cool



I've been snowed in at various High Country Club Beaver Creek properties for the last week or so and I missed this thread.  

Is it me or has PwrDawg conveniently not answered the question of if he has become a member?


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## vivalour (Feb 11, 2008)

travelguy said:


> I've been snowed in at various High Country Club Beaver Creek properties for the last week or so and I missed this thread.
> 
> Is it me or has PwrDawg conveniently not answered the question of if he has become a member?



He hasn't come out publicly with an answer, yet.


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