# Buying a WM Account with a loan Balance



## walleyejason (Jun 29, 2016)

The Mother of a very close friend is looking to sell her account, and I am interested in buying it from her.

I want her to get a fair price, however In all my research I am finding that .40 cents per cred is the going rate.

She has a balance on her account, She has 11,000 Points, and owes about $2100 on her loan.

I'm offering her $4400, minus the Balance of the loan.

Shes got a fully loaded account 22K Plus 11K to Borrow. But does not have any HK only (1) to borrow. 11K Points Will Expire in March of 2017.

This looks like a great deal for me, and just want to make sure I'm looking at this correctly.

Any feedback is helpful.

Thanks
WJ


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## VacationForever (Jun 29, 2016)

Sounds like a great deal.  Very similar to the one I bought through a broker.  I paid 40 cents per credit on a fully loaded account.

I don't know if Wyndham charges transfer fees for Worldmark contracts.  Not an expert here.  I did pay the broker a transfer/closing fee but I think it could be something that went into their pocket.  You will need to call Wyndham by Worldmark to get details or Ron Parise or someone who deals a lot with Worldmark may be able to advise.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 29, 2016)

It would be no different than buying a house with a mortgage against it. Any money to pay off the lien would come out of the proceeds of the sale. If there isn't enough to pay off the mortgage, then the seller would have to come to the table with enough money to pay it off. Can't speak to your price, but the mechanics will work just fine.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jun 29, 2016)

I understand from reading TUG - that Worldmark loans can be assumes by the new buyer/ owner .
I assume this is what will occur in this transaction . You become the owner and keep making monthly payments on the existing loan .

I recently saw a "sold" on ebay where the  price looked like very low - until I clicked it open and realized it had a loan balance . The math looked similar to your proposed transaction .

.


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## ChrisandBeth (Jun 29, 2016)

walleyejason said:


> The Mother of a very close friend is looking to sell her account, and I am interested in buying it from her.
> 
> I want her to get a fair price, however In all my research I am finding that .40 cents per cred is the going rate.
> 
> ...



Your proposed deal is fair to both sides. Worldmark will charge a $299 transfer fee. I suggest you split it.  Be aware that Travelshare benefits will not transfer with the sale. If you want RCI you will have to join and pay your own fees. You won't be eligible for " club pass" . But buying Worldmark for access to the Worldmark resorts is what you are paying for and its a fair price for all


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## ronparise (Jun 29, 2016)

It's a good deal if both sides come away happy

Now all you have to do is call Wyndham and ask them to prepare the paper work. Do a conference call and one of you have their credit card out to pay the $299. EZPZ

It will take 10 days to two weeks for them to prepare the paperwork and another couple of weeks to effect the transfer

The loan and fees have to be kept up to date throughout the transfer period


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## smmatrix (Jul 1, 2016)

*Not so fast*

I don't think it's a very good deal.  I have three accounts, all purchased from sellers on eBay.  I've paid as little as .19/credit which are readily available most anytime.  I just bought another 17,000 account this week for .23/credit, and it had another 17k credits banked in which I valued at .07 each.  I paid $5100 plus the $299 transfer fee. TimeshareAngels is one of the sellers I often see the .19/credit deals but read the fine print and make sure there aren't previous years dues to be added to the sales price with this seller.  Good luck.


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## JudyS (Jul 1, 2016)

As it happens, I was considering starting a thread that asked about the going rate for Worldmark credits. 

A couple years ago, I remember that about 30 cents a credit was considered the going rate for contracts with this year's points. 

But on this thread, I'm seeing some people say the going rate is 40 cents. And,  someone else says you can find credits at 19 cents. So, should I average the two, which leaves the going rate still at about 30 cents per credit? 

As for Timeshare Angels, it seems that they *always* want last year's fees paid on contracts that have the current year's credits included. This raises their price by a lot.


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## JudyS (Jul 1, 2016)

smmatrix said:


> ...I just bought another 17,000 account this week for .23/credit, and it had another 17k credits banked in which I valued at .07 each.  I paid $5100 plus the $299 transfer fee. ...


Looking at this more closely, $5400 ($5100 plus the transfer fee) divided by 17,000 credits is 32 cents per credit. I understand that you value the banked credits at 7 cents each, but that still only brings the price down to 25 cents per credit, not 23 cents or 19 cents.

As for the Original Poster's question, the contract he is buying includes an assumable loan that can be paid over time. This makes the contract more valuable. So, I think 40 cents is reasonable, if the seller pays the $299 transfer fee. It's not the very best, rock-bottom price. But the Original Poster wants to offer his friend's mother a price that is fair to both sides, not the absolute lowest price he can extract from her.


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## ronparise (Jul 1, 2016)

I recently sold several assumable loan deals at 40 cents a credit and they werent fully loaded. and I just bought several at 35 cents. So that should give you some idea of the market


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## smmatrix (Jul 2, 2016)

JudyS said:


> Looking at this more closely, $5400 ($5100 plus the transfer fee) divided by 17,000 credits is 32 cents per credit. I understand that you value the banked credits at 7 cents each, but that still only brings the price down to 25 cents per credit, not 23 cents or 19 cents.
> 
> As for the Original Poster's question, the contract he is buying includes an assumable loan that can be paid over time. This makes the contract more valuable. So, I think 40 cents is reasonable, if the seller pays the $299 transfer fee. It's not the very best, rock-bottom price. But the Original Poster wants to offer his friend's mother a price that is fair to both sides, not the absolute lowest price he can extract from her.



I hadn't figured in the transfer fee as it's a fixed fee no matter what price you pay.

17,000 banked credits = $1190
1190-5100= $3910
3910 / 17,000 credits = .23/credit

As far as TimeshareAngels, I see NONE of their listings include previous dues:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/timeshareangels2004/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

As far as .23/credit deals, they're all over the place.  Here is one:
http://tinyurl.com/gsxd9d4


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## JudyS (Jul 2, 2016)

smmatrix said:


> I hadn't figured in the transfer fee as it's a fixed fee no matter what price you pay.


True, but if one buys, say, four 5000 credit contracts, that fee has to be paid four times. If one buys a 20,000 credit contract, the fee only has to be paid once. That's why I count the $299 fee when figuring the cost per credit. 



smmatrix said:


> As far as .23/credit deals, they're all over the place.  Here is one:
> http://tinyurl.com/gsxd9d4


How are you coming up with 23 cents per credit? That eBay listing is 20,000 credits for $7500. There is also a $199 closing fee (plus WM's $299 transfer fee.) Even without the WM transfer fee, that's 38.5 cents per credit, not 23 cents. Now, there is a year's banked points, but counting those credits as worth 7 cents each only brings the price down to 31.5 cents per credit. 



smmatrix said:


> As far as TimeshareAngels, I see NONE of their listings include previous dues:
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/timeshareangels2004/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=


Thanks for pointing that out. I stopped looking at TimeshareAngels' ads because it was so annoying that they charged the previous year's dues. They now seem to have stopped that practice. However, they have compensated by raising the "Buy It Now" price of their listings. Their listings seem to mostly be in the 35 cents a credit and up range. That sounds high to me (for a cash price -- it might be a good price for an assumable loan) so I think I'll go back to ignoring TimeshareAngels' ads.


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## JudyS (Jul 2, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I recently sold several assumable loan deals at 40 cents a credit and they werent fully loaded. and I just bought several at 35 cents. So that should give you some idea of the market


Thanks, Ron. For the OP, not all of the price is in the form of an assumable loan. But, the contract is fully loaded. So, 40 cents a credit might be a reasonable price. 

Walleyejason, here's another idea for verifying the value. Have your friend's mom contact a couple of Worldmark brokers (I'm sure folks here can provide some names), and ask them how much she can expect to get for her WM account. In particular, ask them if they would buy her contract outright, rather than listing her contract and waiting for a buyer. Then, offer her a few hundreds dollars more than what the broker offers. Or, if the price is too high for you, she can sell the contract to the broker.


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2016)

JudyS said:


> True, but if one buys, say, four 5000 credit contracts, that fee has to be paid four times. If one buys a 20,000 credit contract, the fee only has to be paid once. That's why I count the $299 fee when figuring the cost per credit.
> 
> How are you coming up with 23 cents per credit? That eBay listing is 20,000 credits for $7500. There is also a $199 closing fee (plus WM's $299 transfer fee.) Even without the WM transfer fee, that's 38.5 cents per credit, not 23 cents. Now, there is a year's banked points, but counting those credits as worth 7 cents each only brings the price down to 31.5 cents per credit.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. I stopped looking at TimeshareAngels' ads because it was so annoying that they charged the previous year's dues. They now seem to have stopped that practice. However, they have compensated by raising the "Buy It Now" price of their listings. Their listings seem to mostly be in the 35 cents a credit and up range. That sounds high to me (for a cash price -- it might be a good price for an assumable loan) so I think I'll go back to ignoring TimeshareAngels' ads.



The problem with ignoring Timeshaee Angels ads is you will be ignoring much of what's for sale.

 I understand because I do the same thing with Discount Timeshares Club Wyndhams ads 

But they all get sold. 
Someone is buying  this stuff  No? and if one doesn't, why not call and make an offer


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## VacationForever (Jul 2, 2016)

I bought from TimeshareAngels by making an offer on one of their listings on their website.  Asking $5,000 and offered $4000 for 10K credits and it was accepted.  Not only was it fully loaded, after contract was transferred to me, I found another 6,700 credits parked with a reservation.  I checked with TimeshareAngels and they confirmed they were mine to use.  Plus the contract month was only 6 months away instead of the 9 months as on their website.  I felt I had a good deal.  On EBay you can find cheaper but this was no stress and transaction was smooth.


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## JudyS (Jul 3, 2016)

sptung said:


> I bought from TimeshareAngels by making an offer on one of their listings on their website.  Asking $5,000 and offered $4000 for 10K credits and it was accepted.  Not only was it fully loaded, after contract was transferred to me, I found another 6,700 credits parked with a reservation.  I checked with TimeshareAngels and they confirmed they were mine to use.  Plus the contract month was only 6 months away instead of the 9 months as on their website.  I felt I had a good deal.  On EBay you can find cheaper but this was no stress and transaction was smooth.


So, what you got was a substantially better deal than what was originally offered. If  TimeshareAngels will come down that much in price, then it's worth giving them a second look. Did the listing have a "Best Offer" option, or did you contact them even though they didn't explicitly state that they were open to offers? 




ronparise said:


> The problem with ignoring Timeshaee Angels ads is you will be ignoring much of what's for sale.
> 
> I understand because I do the same thing with Discount Timeshares Club Wyndhams ads
> 
> ...


Discount Timeshares is another seller that I ignore. Their listing prices *seem* good, but then they tack on high fees. If they are open to offers, it might be worth contacting them. Anyone have luck with that? 

TimeshareAngels has a good reputation in general, so if they are open to offers, that is worth looking into.


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## taterhed (Jul 4, 2016)

walleyejason said:


> The Mother of a very close friend is looking to sell her account, and I am interested in buying it from her.
> 
> I want her to get a fair price, however In all my research I am finding that .40 cents per cred is the going rate.
> 
> ...



Wow.  Lot's of reading in the posts above....


To answer your question:  .30c to .40C per credit for fully-loaded accounts (all-in, usually including the $299) is a normal, good price.  People will pay more for an existing loan contract (not sure why...) and people will pay more to deal with a reputable seller (like TS Angels).  I paid less than .40c for both of my contracts-all-in including the $299--fully loaded.  Further, 5k, 7k and 10k always fetch a premium; even more-so now with the restrictions on credit renting.  I would also value HKT's at $100 and deduct any missing HKT's at full value.  They cannot be traded now (soon?).

You have a good seller, fully loaded, with loan, so .40c ($3700+$299) would be a good deal; minus any HKT's missing.  A broker will charge her a fat fee and dealing with the public direct on such a sale (including an escrow charge) is not fun.   I'm thinking she would do well to sell to you--with no worries about the transaction--for around $3500 all in (minus loan bal).  No phone calls, no escrow, no shady characters, no commissions. 

Don't believe me?  Go to WMO and start making offers on contracts--you'll see some flexibility.  Of course, I wouldn't do that just for fun--you'll alienate people and ruin your rep on WMO.

my2c


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2016)

taterhed said:


> Wow.  Lot's of reading in the posts above....
> 
> 
> To answer your question:  .30c to .40C per credit for fully-loaded accounts (all-in, usually including the $299) is a normal, good price.  People will pay more for an existing loan contract (not sure why...) and people will pay more to deal with a reputable seller (like TS Angels).  I paid less than .40c for both of my contracts-all-in including the $299--fully loaded.  Further, 5k, 7k and 10k always fetch a premium; even more-so now with the restrictions on credit renting.  I would also value HKT's at $100 and deduct any missing HKT's at full value.  They cannot be traded now (soon?).
> ...



In answer to you comment (not sure why)

I would never commit any real money  to something as frivolous as vacation ownership an assumable loan lets me keep my money in the bank and use Wyndhams

and then there are the folks that want a worldmark ownership and dont have the ready cash

The risk is small because if there comes a time when you want to, or have to, sell. There is a ready market.. for this stuff


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## VacationForever (Jul 4, 2016)

JudyS said:


> So, what you got was a substantially better deal than what was originally offered. If  TimeshareAngels will come down that much in price, then it's worth giving them a second look. Did the listing have a "Best Offer" option, or did you contact them even though they didn't explicitly state that they were open to offers?
> 
> TimeshareAngels has a good reputation in general, so if they are open to offers, that is worth looking into.



There was a button on their website called "Make Offer" or something like that.  I was so new to WM that I had no idea what was a good price and I randomly put in $4000.  They called me within an hour or 2 later and told me that they contacted the seller and the seller was fine with $4000.  A couple of days later they called me again indicating that the anniversary date was really January instead of April as listed.  I did all these in June, so anniversary date was really only 6 months away.  I did prepay for July-Sep waiting for closing and closing with WM happened around September.


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## taterhed (Jul 4, 2016)

ronparise said:


> In answer to you comment (not sure why)
> 
> I would never commit any real money  to something as frivolous as vacation ownership an assumable loan lets me keep my money in the bank and use Wyndhams
> 
> ...



Thanks.  Yeah, the 'no cash on hand' I understand.  I also understand buy/strip/sell  (people will buy it!).

I don't understand why such small balances (under 3k) generate so much interest... maybe I don't pay enough attention or underestimate the willingness of people to buy when they can't really afford it.  ?
Anyway, thanks Ron.


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## JudyS (Jul 4, 2016)

sptung said:


> There was a button on their website called "Make Offer" or something like that.  I was so new to WM that I had no idea what was a good price and I randomly put in $4000.  They called me within an hour or 2 later and told me that they contacted the seller and the seller was fine with $4000.  A couple of days later they called me again indicating that the anniversary date was really January instead of April as listed.  I did all these in June, so anniversary date was really only 6 months away.  I did prepay for July-Sep waiting for closing and closing with WM happened around September.


Thanks for the information!



taterhed said:


> ... Further, 5k, 7k and 10k always fetch a premium; even more-so now with the restrictions on credit renting.  I would also value HKT's at $100 and deduct any missing HKT's at full value.  They cannot be traded now (soon?)....


I understand why 5k, 7k, and 10k contracts fetch a premium -- they are "efficient" contract sizes when it comes to annual fees. But I'm not sure why this premium should go up because of the new restrictions on renting.


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2016)

JudyS said:


> Thanks for the information!
> 
> I understand why 5k, 7k, and 10k contracts fetch a premium -- they are "efficient" contract sizes when it comes to annual fees. But I'm not sure why this premium should go up because of the new restrictions on renting.



Ther are a lot  of small account owners that have been renting in large numbers of points every year that if they are going to continue vacationing the same way they have been, will have to buy more

And then there are the mega renters that have been renting in millions of points to fuel their rental business. If they want to continue their business they will have buy more

So the question is will the increased buying pressure push prices up

Or will they give it up and sell?  Then the increased selling may push prices down


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## greenjean (Jul 7, 2016)

*Club Pass eligibility....*

I assumed a contract many years ago and I have access to Club Pass.


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## easyrider (Jul 7, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Ther are a lot  of small account owners that have been renting in large numbers of points every year that if they are going to continue vacationing the same way they have been, will have to buy more
> 
> And then there are the mega renters that have been renting in millions of points to fuel their rental business. If they want to continue their business they will have buy more
> 
> ...



The WM $35 point rental transfer fee has not deterred me. Did this change ? I haven't needed to rent points this year. 

$35 for all the points you want to rent is pretty cheap, imo. Free was better.

Another loss when buying resale is the contracts loose WM + A benefits. This means WM South Pacific and affiliated resorts are unavailable to resale buyers. 

Bill


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## ronparise (Jul 7, 2016)

easyrider said:


> The WM $35 point rental transfer fee has not deterred me. Did this change ? I haven't needed to rent points this year.
> 
> $35 for all the points you want to rent is pretty cheap, imo. Free was better.
> 
> ...



After sept ther will no longer be a fee and you will limited to renting in or out 2x your annual allocation

So a 20000 credit owner can rent in 40000 credits


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## rhonda (Jul 8, 2016)

ronparise said:


> After sept ther will no longer be a fee and you will limited to renting in or out 2x your annual allocation
> 
> So a 20000 credit owner can rent in 40000 credits


And housekeeping credits will no longer be transferred across accounts.


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## easyrider (Jul 8, 2016)

ronparise said:


> After sept ther will no longer be a fee and you will limited to renting in or out 2x your annual allocation
> 
> So a 20000 credit owner can rent in 40000 credits



Thanks for the heads up Ron. Will owners be able to transfer points to their other accounts or will this be based on the 2x your allocation rule ? 

Bill


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## easyrider (Jul 8, 2016)

rhonda said:


> And housekeeping credits will no longer be transferred across accounts.



Even the accounts you personally own ?


Bill


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## rhonda (Jul 8, 2016)

easyrider said:


> Even the accounts you personally own ?


It kinda reads that way?

Source:  https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/news/guideline_change.shtml


			
				WM Website said:
			
		

> *Assigned Vacation Credit Guideline Change*
> 
> The WorldMark Board of Directors recently voted to change the Assigned Vacation Credits guideline. These changes are in line with the Board's ongoing efforts to increase availability and reinforce equitable access for all owners.
> The current guideline limits owners to a maximum of two times your annual Vacation Credit allotment to be transferred during your anniversary year. Any transfers beyond that limit are subject to a transaction fee.
> ...


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## ronparise (Jul 8, 2016)

how would it be possible to transfer out more than 2x

I understand if you had more than 2 accounts.... if you were trying to consolidate everything in one account that account could reach its limit


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## rhonda (Jul 8, 2016)

ronparise said:


> how would it be possible to transfer out more than 2x


I'm guessing the transfer OUT limit was aimed at mega-transfer-renters who might have kept a steady flow of credits moving between accounts.  First IN, then OUT, then IN again, then OUT, etc.


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## ronparise (Jul 8, 2016)

rhonda said:


> I'm guessing the transfer OUT limit was aimed at mega-transfer-renters who might have kept a steady flow of credits moving between accounts.  First IN, then OUT, then IN again, then OUT, etc.



The guys I know don't transfer out. They have small accounts and transfer in millions for reservations they rent


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## rhonda (Jul 8, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The guys I know don't transfer out. They have small accounts and transfer in millions for reservations they rent


I've rented transfer credits from a WM resale specialist who regularly advertised credits for transfer.  My guess is that they would consolidate the excess credits generated/held from each account they had listed for sale; sell the credits as transfer and then sell the underlying account as either 'stripped' or 'current credits only.'  Just a guess.

Going forward they will have to sell smaller bundles of excess credits -- performing the transfer out from the originating account rather than consolidating them into fewer clearinghouse accounts.


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## JudyS (Jul 9, 2016)

An owner could have more than 2X credits to transfer out if they had, say, two years of credits and also some Exchange Plus credits. But, my guess is Rhonda is right -- the "2x transfer out" rule is to make it harder for people who are consolidating/stripping accounts.


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