# Does it make sense to buy a resale in this environment?



## PhilaMom (Aug 23, 2020)

Thanks for all your advice.  We have been considering purchasing a legacy week.  My husband and I were wondering what your thoughts were about buying now, in the Covid environment.  Are prices reduced?  MF fees higher?  ROFR?  How is exchanging or banking working with II, if we can’t actually get to the resorts now?  Thanks!


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## Big Matt (Aug 23, 2020)

Wait until MFs are due this winter.  You should see a lot of weeks on sale for free.  Just my gut.


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## Dean (Aug 23, 2020)

PhilaMom said:


> Thanks for all your advice.  We have been considering purchasing a legacy week.  My husband and I were wondering what your thoughts were about buying now, in the Covid environment.  Are prices reduced?  MF fees higher?  ROFR?  How is exchanging or banking working with II, if we can’t actually get to the resorts now?  Thanks!


If it makes sense in your personal situation looking long term it's likely the best time to buy or at least start looking.  There are some indications you may have missed the best time from a ROFR standpoint but whether this trend holds is uncertain.  I'd look about 10 years out and throw away 2021 and if it makes sense with those variables as well as in general, may as well jump in.


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## ljmiii (Aug 23, 2020)

PhilaMom said:


> Thanks for all your advice....what [are] your thoughts were about buying now, in the Covid environment.


You are (hopefully) buying for 2021 through at least 2031 so from a usage standpoint COVID is unlikely to matter.

As for pricing you are certainly better off buying now than six months ago. The market for each week at each resort is different but there are now lots of sub-$2/pt Destination Point contracts out there. Will there be a deeper bottom in four months...maybe. Will MVC be more aggressive about ROFR in four months...maybe.

My guess would be that weeks that are 'common' - say a week at Royal Palms in Orlando - will have farther to fall because the owners are more likely to make a panic sale due to MFs than someone who owns Ocean Front at Maui Ocean Club.  But I could be wrong.

My gut feel is that if you see a week for sale at a price that looks attractive make an offer. If not, keep looking.


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## rthib (Aug 23, 2020)

I bought. Picked up another resale week at my home resort (which is enrolled) 
Price was right and Marriott seems very easy on ROFR.
Also less stress if I want to do points or go visit as I now have 2 weeks there.
My advice is same as always, remember the only thing you are buying is the ability to use your week at your resort in your season. Everything else is up for change.  Trades might be harder when things normalize as folks deposited or delayed trades or not.  Worse case for me is I spend two weeks at my favorite resort.


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## wjarcher (Aug 23, 2020)

I've bought quite a few this year (most pre-covid, wished I had waited, also several post covid), and I would say as long as you are selective and patient (only go for deals), just as others have commented, this is a good time to buy because you have better chance passing ROFR and there are sellers desperately wanting to get out.

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## topdog (Aug 23, 2020)

Absolutely, as owners we are seriously rethinking travel in general and timeshares specifically.


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## bogey21 (Aug 23, 2020)

wjarcher said:


> ...as others have commented, this is a good time to buy because you have better chance passing ROFR and there are sellers desperately wanting to get out.



It makes sense to me that the more Weeks that are presented to Marriott for ROFR the lower their acceptance threshold will become.  If for no other reason than the more Weeks  they buy the less MF dollars they will collect...

George


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## BJRSanDiego (Aug 23, 2020)

I'm in the process of buying a resale Platinum week.  I have some gold weeks and after things stabilize and Marriott cranks up its ROFR again, I may jettison one or two gold weeks.  I'm seeing Marriotts selling for perhaps 1/2 of what they sold for a year ago.  Also, Marriott is letting a bunch of these pass through ROFR.  Even points are cheaper.  A year ago I think that the average minimum to pass ROFR was around $4 per point.  Now I'm seeing things advertised in the neighborhood of $2 per point (plus Marriott's $3 pp fee).


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## BJRSanDiego (Aug 23, 2020)

BTW, if you peruse eBay, you'll see some of the medium rated non-Marriott TS being basically given away.  Some even throw in the closing costs paid by seller.


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## Dean (Aug 24, 2020)

BJRSanDiego said:


> BTW, if you peruse eBay, you'll see some of the medium rated non-Marriott TS being basically given away.  Some even throw in the closing costs paid by seller.


I've bought Platinum Marriott's with free closing and basically or almost for free, including HI.  And this was before Covid.


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## Big Matt (Aug 24, 2020)

Dean's experience should increase as people change their minds about traveling, especially by air.  Places like Hawaii, Aruba, Spain, and Asia may not be as desirable for United States based owners of those areas.  I could see a move to sell if these people used their weeks mostly.


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## Dean (Aug 24, 2020)

Big Matt said:


> Dean's experience should increase as people change their minds about traveling, especially by air.  Places like Hawaii, Aruba, Spain, and Asia may not be as desirable for United States based owners of those areas.  I could see a move to sell if these people used their weeks mostly.


I think it'll be tied to how the economy goes, basically more bargains and passing ROFR will likely equate to a poor and prolonged economy experience.


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## Big Matt (Aug 24, 2020)

Dean said:


> I think it'll be tied to how the economy goes, basically more bargains and passing ROFR will likely equate to a poor and prolonged economy experience.


Or at least the perception of a prolonged economy experience.  A lot of people are very reactionary and do irrational things in the short run.  That's where I think we'll find bargains.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 24, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> You are (hopefully) buying for 2021 through at least 2031 so from a usage standpoint COVID is unlikely to matter.



Well, 2021 might be iffy, especially considering by the time anyone closes on a new purchase, the booking options for 2021 could already be limited. It's also reasonable to expect that we'll be dealing with COVID to a moderate to significant degree for at least the first half of 2021, if not longer. I would look at 2022 as my first use year (at best) on any new purchase. If 2021 usage happens, all the better.


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## Dean (Aug 24, 2020)

Big Matt said:


> Or at least the perception of a prolonged economy experience.  A lot of people are very reactionary and do irrational things in the short run.  That's where I think we'll find bargains.


They will go hand in hand.  The more real issue there are and the longer it lasts, the more people will react emotionally.  But I agree some will freak out now, some will later if it continues.


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## PhilaMom (Aug 24, 2020)

I agree that many may not want to travel into 2021.  Thinking driving locations may make most sense.  Thanks for all your thoughts, so far!


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## uaremymuse (Aug 24, 2020)

No, I wouldn’t recommend your buying a TS. You can find TSs or Airbnb’s to rent for far less than paying for a TS plus you don’t have the burden of depreciation, possibly paying to trade it when you want to go somewhere else, paying RCI or II membership and exchange fees, and the inability to sell it. If I sound negative on TSs, I am and with years of experience studying them. People who own them can’t even give them away. I had two prime weeks in Vegas, Christmas and New Years on the Strip and I couldn’t sell them and had a difficult time giving them away. Maintenace goes up year after year also. There’s not one positive thing about owning a TS that you can’t derive by just renting a place. Tell me what and where you want to buy, the type of week you want and what the name is and I’ll show you how it makes no sense. Just as an example, if you pay $10,000 for a week and $1000 per year in fees, that’s equivalent to buying the place for $500,000 with a $50,000/year maintenance fee. Does that make any financial sense for most TS properties? Don’t do it; you’ll regret it. 


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 24, 2020)

There is some merit in buying when a larger than normal number are selling. Lower prices and more choices.


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## Dean (Aug 24, 2020)

uaremymuse said:


> No, I wouldn’t recommend your buying a TS. You can find TSs or Airbnb’s to rent for far less than paying for a TS plus you don’t have the burden of depreciation, possibly paying to trade it when you want to go somewhere else, paying RCI or II membership and exchange fees, and the inability to sell it. If I sound negative on TSs, I am and with years of experience studying them. People who own them can’t even give them away. I had two prime weeks in Vegas, Christmas and New Years on the Strip and I couldn’t sell them and had a difficult time giving them away. Maintenace goes up year after year also. There’s not one positive thing about owning a TS that you can’t derive by just renting a place. Tell me what and where you want to buy, the type of week you want and what the name is and I’ll show you how it makes no sense. Just as an example, if you pay $10,000 for a week and $1000 per year in fees, that’s equivalent to buying the place for $500,000 with a $50,000/year maintenance fee. Does that make any financial sense for most TS properties? Don’t do it; you’ll regret it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do think there are situations like you describe but I do not agree that applies across the board and certainly LV can be one of them where the numbers are accurate if you're paying like $10K given it's relative supply and demand curve, same for Orlando, Branson and Williamsburg.  You're not buying every week so the fractional purchase price isn't applicable though the rental price is.  There certainly is a cost and risk of ownership but there are benefits as well as you clearly missed.  You have more control of your reservation, you have a priority for unit assignments and if done well up front, the finances you quote are inaccurate for many options.  Take my Grande Ocean reservations for next 4th of July.  The full price will be over $4500 per week if rented through MVC and about $1000 less if done privately.  With an average purchase price modestly over the $10K you reference and yearly fees of $1550 currently, and I had my weeks locked in for next 4th of July in April of this year.  And to be honest, MGO is likely my lowest margin of benefit from a cost standpoint of all my timeshares though it's also my largest chunk.  But the benefit ultimately is in the usage though I do feel you largely lock in your savings, cost and many of the other variables with the up front purchase decisions.


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## wjarcher (Aug 24, 2020)

Dean said:


> I do think there are situations like you describe but I do not agree that applies across the board and certainly LV can be one of them where the numbers are accurate if you're paying like $10K given it's relative supply and demand curve, same for Orlando, Branson and Williamsburg.  You're not buying every week so the fractional purchase price isn't applicable though the rental price is.  There certainly is a cost and risk of ownership but there are benefits as well as you clearly missed.  You have more control of your reservation, you have a priority for unit assignments and if done well up front, the finances you quote are inaccurate for many options.  Take my Grande Ocean reservations for next 4th of July.  The full price will be over $4500 per week if rented through MVC and about $1000 less if done privately.  With an average purchase price modestly over the $10K you reference and yearly fees of $1550 currently, and I had my weeks locked in for next 4th of July in April of this year.  And to be honest, MGO is likely my lowest margin of benefit from a cost standpoint of all my timeshares though it's also my largest chunk.  But the benefit ultimately is in the usage though I do feel you largely lock in your savings, cost and many of the other variables with the up front purchase decisions.



Cannot agree more.  We can only travel during holidays and it costs a fortune to book a studio hotel room in Maui during Christmas & New Year. That's why we bought WKORVN week 51 & 52 this year. Even if these weeks' value goes to nil, I would still come out ahead in 10 years.  Besides, these event weeks' price stays high over the years because there is always demand for it. (To us, it's a cheaper way than buying a real estate in Maui which we only get to use a few weeks in a year.)


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## BJRSanDiego (Aug 24, 2020)

I saw that there is was auction for 2000 Marriott DC points.  Starting bid is $3150.  Only 2 were watching during the last hour of the auction (I'm one of them and won't be bidding).  So, there is very low interest. It turned out that no one bid.  If someone would have, this would have equated to $ 1.55 a point (plus the Marriott fees).   

It is an example of how prices are pretty low right now.


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## davidvel (Aug 24, 2020)

rthib said:


> I bought. Picked up another resale week at my home resort (which is enrolled)
> Price was right and Marriott seems very easy on ROFR.
> Also less stress if I want to do points or go visit as I now have 2 weeks there.
> My advice is same as always, remember the only thing you are buying is the ability to use your week at your resort in your season. Everything else is up for change.  Trades might be harder when things normalize as folks deposited or delayed trades or not.  Worse case for me is I spend two weeks at my favorite resort.


You can also use the 1/2 enrolled trick if you want to trade. You can use your enrolled week or trade for DC points, and deposit your unenrolled week in your corporate account. So far people say it works (shhhh.)


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## hangloose (Aug 25, 2020)

In general, I'd say it is a good time to purchase MVC resale (week or points).   Whether that gets better or worse, is anyones guess given the current economic position and COVID.   2020 has been a challenging year for travel, including timeshares (ownership and mgmt).  Hope is that it improves into 2021.  

Do you research on TUG, pick what you feel hits on your needs/desires, then go after it.   Eventually COVID will pass, and travel will resume.  Just be aware that timeshares do have an ongoing commitment of maintenance fees, so make sure you are okay with that (and how best to use) in advance of purchase.


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## uaremymuse (Aug 25, 2020)

wjarcher said:


> Cannot agree more. We can only travel during holidays and it costs a fortune to book a studio hotel room in Maui during Christmas & New Year. That's why we bought WKORVN week 51 & 52 this year. Even if these weeks' value goes to nil, I would still come out ahead in 10 years. Besides, these event weeks' price stays high over the years because there is always demand for it. (To us, it's a cheaper way than buying a real estate in Maui which we only get to use a few weeks in a year.)



How much did you pay for your week and what are the annual maintenance fees?


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## Dean (Aug 25, 2020)

uaremymuse said:


> How much did you pay for your week and what are the annual maintenance fees?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll give you a couple of other examples from non MVC timeshares.  First, I own DVC, 333 pts at Boardwalk and 100 pts at Animal Kingdom.  I paid $54 per point resale for BWV & $93 PP for the AKV with four 25 pt contracts retail.  Fees at BWV are $4.36 pp and rental prices done privately getting close to $20 pp.  I'm long since paid for both with savings even considering the opportunity costs and fees comparing to either a discounted retail price or renting privately so it's really just the fees that are true costs at this point in time.  Plus both are worth quite a bit more than I paid if I wanted to sell.  Plus all points are qualified, something not available now resale. 

The other, and really my best value $$$ wise, is my Bluegreen points.  Given their fee structure and my volume of points, my costs are inexpensive and again, given how I got there at 12¢ a point qualified to the highest VIP level, I've long since recouped any up front costs.  Fees under 0.07¢ per point.  

If you can tell me how I can stay on Disney property in a Deluxe resort for the same or less, I'd love to know.


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## NiteMaire (Aug 25, 2020)

uaremymuse said:


> No, I wouldn’t recommend your buying a TS. You can find TSs or Airbnb’s to rent for far less than paying for a TS plus you don’t have the burden of depreciation, possibly paying to trade it when you want to go somewhere else, paying RCI or II membership and exchange fees, and the inability to sell it. If I sound negative on TSs, I am and with years of experience studying them. People who own them can’t even give them away. I had two prime weeks in Vegas, Christmas and New Years on the Strip and I couldn’t sell them and had a difficult time giving them away. Maintenace goes up year after year also. There’s not one positive thing about owning a TS that you can’t derive by just renting a place. Tell me what and where you want to buy, the type of week you want and what the name is and I’ll show you how it makes no sense. Just as an example, if you pay $10,000 for a week and $1000 per year in fees, that’s equivalent to buying the place for $500,000 with a $50,000/year maintenance fee. Does that make any financial sense for most TS properties? Don’t do it; you’ll regret it.


That's one opinion.  My years of owning timeshares have me seeing things differently, and I don't regret it one bit!  Oh, and we've successfully sold and/or given away 3 weeks.  

We own 4 units and wouldn't change a thing at the moment!  Why?  Here's just one example: 
In April/May 2019 we spent back-to-back weeks in 2BR Marriott units on Oahu (Ko Olina mountain view) and Kauai (Waiohai ocean view).  We followed it up in September with a week in a 1BR Westin (WKORV partial ocean view - don't know the exact view) on Maui.  All 3 resorts are all oceanfront.   For lodging, we spent roughly $2,900 in total for the 3 weeks.  It's a little more if you amortize the $3,500 combined purchase price of the 2 units I exchanged.  I search Marriott online and those 3 weeks in the same units would have cost $11,500!  We couldn't afford it if we didn't own timeshares.  Yes, the $2,900 included II (platinum) membership, II exchange fees, Marriott LO fees, etc.  No, it didn't include airfare and food, but we would have had those costs regardless of lodging.  

Could we have rented something else? Maybe, but we're fans of Marriott, and want to stay in a Marriott when we travel.  Have we rented from Airbnb before? Yes.  Would we do it again?  Possibly.  But one thing we will definitely do again is stay in a 2BR or 1BR Marriott/Westin oceanfront resort which has a full kitchen.

TS aren't for everyone, but they are definitely for some!  To the OP and anyone else who's debating, research and make your own determination. It could very well bring years of happiness to you.  It's done exactly that for my family.


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## wjarcher (Aug 25, 2020)

NiteMaire said:


> That's one opinion. My years of owning timeshares have me seeing things differently, and I don't regret it one bit! Oh, and we've successfully sold and/or given away 3 weeks.
> 
> We own 4 units and wouldn't change a thing at the moment! Why? Here's just one example:
> In April/May 2019 we spent back-to-back weeks in 2BR Marriott units on Oahu (Ko Olina mountain view) and Kauai (Waiohai ocean view). We followed it up in September with a week in a 1BR Westin (WKORV partial ocean view - don't know the exact view) on Maui. All 3 resorts are all oceanfront. For lodging, we spent roughly $2,900 in total for the 3 weeks. It's a little more if you amortize the $3,500 combined purchase price of the 2 units I exchanged. I search Marriott online and those 3 weeks in the same units would have cost $11,500! We couldn't afford it if we didn't own timeshares. Yes, the $2,900 included II (platinum) membership, II exchange fees, Marriott LO fees, etc. No, it didn't include airfare and food, but we would have had those costs regardless of lodging.
> ...


I long for my retirement when I can travel anytime, for sure I will acquire enough TS for trade by then. I have an AC that I could use to travel to hawaii in a 2 BR late October for $300 (which I am sure won't be the norm if not for covid). There is a reason why there are so many happy tuggers. It's all up to you knowing how the system works and finding a way to use it to its full extent.

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## Dean (Aug 25, 2020)

Having control is a big plus but certainly the yearly commitment has it's drawbacks.  That's one of the areas where TUG and other such sites for timeshares can be a big help to those interested.  I might have agreed if we were only talking those who went on vacation, went to a sales tour and were sold something retail worth a fraction of what one paid that they didn't understand.  And timeshares certainly are not for everyone but for a portion of the people who are willing to put in the effort to learn and use the system then purchase strategically, they can be a real benefit.  A review of past posts is very interesting.


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## PhilaMom (Aug 25, 2020)

Thanks for all your insights.  It certainly sounds like many of you enjoy your time in Marriott timeshares, and it sounds like there may be some deals out there now.


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## TXTortoise (Aug 25, 2020)

PhilaMom said:


> Thanks for all your insights.  It certainly sounds like many of you enjoy your time in Marriott timeshares, and it sounds like there may be some deals out there now.



In case you haven't seen the link, check out ROFR.net to get a sense of what weeks/points have been selling for or take by Marriott. Take with a grain of salt and be aware that 2018 was different than 2019 and we know 2020 should have just been skipped...


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## BJRSanDiego (Aug 26, 2020)

BJRSanDiego said:


> I saw that there is was auction for 2000 Marriott DC points.  Starting bid is $3150.  Only 2 were watching during the last hour of the auction (I'm one of them and won't be bidding).  So, there is very low interest. It turned out that no one bid.  If someone would have, this would have equated to $ 1.55 a point (plus the Marriott fees).
> 
> It is an example of how prices are pretty low right now.


The DC points are relisted and the starting bid was lowered to $2950 which would equate to $1.48 a point.  Wow!   It is tempting me but deeded weeks are still working okay for me.


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## scott atl (Sep 3, 2020)

Hi all.  My wife and I have owned MVC points since 2012, but we are new here, having just discovered TUG and this forum.  We enjoy the MVC resorts, and we have made very good use of our points.  We are thinking of purchasing a week on the resale market and using it to complement our points ownership.  We are primarily interested in a resort that we will use, but that would also have a good trade value.  Has anyone done this, and/or have thoughts?  I am hoping for pros and cons from the community.

Thanks.


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## Ginny39 (Sep 6, 2020)

Big Matt said:


> Wait until MFs are due this winter.  You should see a lot of weeks on sale for free.  Just my gut.


I thought of that but then I found just what I wanted, a 3 bedroom, platinum week at Marriott's SurfWatch.  The owner wanted $10,000.  I think that is a fair price and hope it will pass ROFR.  It is in the garden area, but we like the garden area.  And the owner was able to get a week just before our reserved week.  (only loosing 1 day)  There may be free weeks, but I am not looking for a week to trade, I am looking for a week that I will use, and I don't think anyone will be giving away a 3 bedroom villa on HHI.  

I am a member, but some how I couldn't log in and so I used a different name.  I am trying to change that, I received an email from TUG, but until I can change, I am a guest, with a membership


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## pedro47 (Sep 7, 2020)

No. I would wait until after MF are release for 2021. 
I feel their will be lots of TS resale inventory for 2021 because of COVID - 19. IMO.


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## Dean (Sep 7, 2020)

Ginny39 said:


> I thought of that but then I found just what I wanted, a 3 bedroom, platinum week at Marriott's SurfWatch.  The owner wanted $10,000.  I think that is a fair price and hope it will pass ROFR.  It is in the garden area, but we like the garden area.  And the owner was able to get a week just before our reserved week.  (only loosing 1 day)  There may be free weeks, but I am not looking for a week to trade, I am looking for a week that I will use, and I don't think anyone will be giving away a 3 bedroom villa on HHI.
> 
> I am a member, but some how I couldn't log in and so I used a different name.  I am trying to change that, I received an email from TUG, but until I can change, I am a guest, with a membership


I think that's a very fair price.  I can't imagine there will be free weeks for HHI Platinum, esp for Surfwatch, Barony or Grande Ocean.  And other than the owners unit at Monarch, Surfwatch has the only 3 BR on the island for Marriott.  I definitely agree with waiting if one's personal situation dictates it and I think it's reasonable if one is mostly looking for cheap or not very selective.  However if one's personal situation is secure and one finds what they want at a good price and/or wants something specific, I see no reason to wait just because it might or might not be cheaper in a year or 2.  This might end up being the lowest point or it might not, we'll have to see.  But it's certainly not a given that things will be worse (cheaper) later and even if they are it likely won't be this winter as much as possibly next winter.  There is a value in getting something now and having the usage.

Clearly you wanted a 3 BR but I think the challenge for Surfwatch is that the locations of the 3 BR might be difficult to match up to other owned weeks even in the same category.  I wonder if two 2BR might not be a better choice for many needing more volume.


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## NiteMaire (Sep 7, 2020)

scott atl said:


> We are thinking of purchasing a week on the resale market and using it to complement our points ownership.  We are primarily interested in a resort that we will use, but that would also have a good trade value.  Has anyone done this, and/or have thoughts?  I am hoping for pros and cons from the community.


Two popular resorts for trading are Grand Chateau and Grande Vista, but others also like Desert Spring Villas I/II, Shadow Ridge, and Willow Ridge.  For LOs, MGC and MGV have 2BR and 3BR.  All others are only 2BR if I recall correctly.
We debated between 3BR MGC and MGV.  In the end, we purchased MGC since we thought we may use it occasionally.  It turned into a dedicated trader since we were able to exchange into Hawaii with each side.  I recently sold it, and picked up a 2BR at MGC.  
Here's a post with a link to 6 threads on the subject of Marriott Traders:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/looking-at-resale-mvc.307317/#post-2479621
And here's one more post and thread: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/marriott-trader-where-to-buy.300605/post-2393269


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## Ginny39 (Sep 7, 2020)

Clearly you wanted a 3 BR but I think the challenge for Surfwatch is that the locations of the 3 BR might be difficult to match up to other owned weeks even in the same category.  I wonder if two 2BR might not be a better choice for many needing more volume.
[/QUOTE]


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## Ginny39 (Sep 7, 2020)

Ginny39 said:


> Clearly you wanted a 3 BR but I think the challenge for Surfwatch is that the locations of the 3 BR might be difficult to match up to other owned weeks even in the same category.  I wonder if two 2BR might not be a better choice for many needing more volume.


I am hoping that won't happen.  For the last 2 or 3 years, I have called at exactly 9 am and was able to get the 4th of July week.  My son and his family also own a 3 bedroom platinum, and they called and we both were able to get the week.  Not sure how many owners will want the week that we want.  Usually the Friday check in date goes first, so we could try for a Sat. or Sunday.  I probably should have thought of that, but the 3 bedroom gives us the chance to add 4 more people to our party.  We had a family reunion there a few years ago and there were 29 of us.  Great fun!  Three bedroom timeshares are wonderful because we can share the fun.  I will keep my fingers crossed.


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## Dean (Sep 7, 2020)

Ginny39 said:


> I am hoping that won't happen.  For the last 2 or 3 years, I have called at exactly 9 am and was able to get the 4th of July week.  My son and his family also own a 3 bedroom platinum, and they called and we both were able to get the week.  Not sure how many owners will want the week that we want.  Usually the Friday check in date goes first, so we could try for a Sat. or Sunday.  I probably should have thought of that, but the 3 bedroom gives us the chance to add 4 more people to our party.  We had a family reunion there a few years ago and there were 29 of us.  Great fun!  Three bedroom timeshares are wonderful because we can share the fun.  I will keep my fingers crossed.


I hope it works out but my point wasn't so much getting the reservation as it was location within the resort given the 3 BR situation.  If you are trying to match to another 3 BR that should make it easier as long as they are the same view type.  It sounds like you already own another unit there plus the Son's 3 BR, what are the view types of each?  I know the resort will do their best but it is a challenging resort to match up different view types IMO.  BTW, we tend to prefer 2 BR for larger groups, we had 68 at MGO this 4th of July.


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## Ginny39 (Sep 7, 2020)

Dean said:


> I hope it works out but my point wasn't so much getting the reservation as it was location within the resort given the 3 BR situation.  If you are trying to match to another 3 BR that should make it easier as long as they are the same view type.  It sounds like you already own another unit there plus the Son's 3 BR, what are the view types of each?  I know the resort will do their best but it is a challenging resort to match up different view types IMO.  BTW, we tend to prefer 2 BR for larger groups, we had 68 at MGO this 4th of July.


All of our views are garden, we stayed at all three views before buying.  We are happy with the garden and they are also cheaper.  It is actually very pleasant with the view of the pond.  You must have had a grand time at GO for the 4th.  Our first timeshare was GO, ocean front, but it was silver.  We soon realized that we were not able to bring our children and grandchildren.  We actually ended up giving that one away and bought our first SW.  I know some people don't like timeshares, but we have found that they give us much pleasure and family time.


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## Dean (Sep 7, 2020)

Ginny39 said:


> All of our views are garden, we stayed at all three views before buying.  We are happy with the garden and they are also cheaper.  It is actually very pleasant with the view of the pond.  You must have had a grand time at GO for the 4th.  Our first timeshare was GO, ocean front, but it was silver.  We soon realized that we were not able to bring our children and grandchildren.  We actually ended up giving that one away and bought our first SW.  I know some people don't like timeshares, but we have found that they give us much pleasure and family time.


Timeshares have been a great option for us.  I'm glad all of yours are the same view, you had me worried that you'd have trouble getting them close.


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## ahdah (Sep 7, 2020)

Dean said:


> I think that's a very fair price.  I can't imagine there will be free weeks for HHI Platinum, esp for Surfwatch, Barony or Grande Ocean.  And other than the owners unit at Monarch, Surfwatch has the only 3 BR on the island for Marriott.  I definitely agree with waiting if one's personal situation dictates it and I think it's reasonable if one is mostly looking for cheap or not very selective.  However if one's personal situation is secure and one finds what they want at a good price and/or wants something specific, I see no reason to wait just because it might or might not be cheaper in a year or 2.  This might end up being the lowest point or it might not, we'll have to see.  But it's certainly not a given that things will be worse (cheaper) later and even if they are it likely won't be this winter as much as possibly next winter.  There is a value in getting something now and having the usage.
> 
> Clearly you wanted a 3 BR but I think the challenge for Surfwatch is that the locations of the 3 BR might be difficult to match up to other owned weeks even in the same category.  I wonder if two 2BR might not be a better choice for many needing more volume.


Thank goodness I was able to change from a guest to a member.  It took me a little while but I was able to figure its out.  Thanks for your input it was very helpful.  Let's hope next summer we will all be able to travel to our home resorts for a grand time.  Stay safe.


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## Dean (Sep 7, 2020)

ahdah said:


> Thank goodness I was able to change from a guest to a member.  It took me a little while but I was able to figure its out.  Thanks for your input it was very helpful.  Let's hope next summer we will all be able to travel to our home resorts for a grand time.  Stay safe.


We're reserved at GO next summer for a large group as well.  Enjoy your ownership.


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## SteelerGal (Sep 8, 2020)

I recently p/u MVC Shadow Ridge Plat EOR for less than $500.  We already own MVC but wanted to book at 13mo instead of 13mo.  We are local so going to Palm Desert for Spring Break is the norm for my family.
There are deals out there and I am seeing more abs more on EBay.  Just keep looking.


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## jedimasterjem (Sep 23, 2020)

Big Matt said:


> Wait until MFs are due this winter.  You should see a lot of weeks on sale for free.  Just my gut.



even if this happens will Marriott exercise ROFR more often or let it go?


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## Big Matt (Sep 24, 2020)

It depends on what it is.  It doesn't hurt to try.


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## Sugarcubesea (Sep 24, 2020)

I bought another unit at a resort I already own at due to a deal the homeowners association was running.  To me it was a deal, so I grabbed it


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## jayk77 (Sep 24, 2020)

I am also considering buying a resale but I have a question.  If lots of people stop traveling by air for long periods or even for years to places such as Aruba or Hawaii as they do not want to fly won't that lead to much higher costs and result in rapidly increasing MFs.  That could further lead to many people walking away from their timeshares in such places. Then the people who continue to hold and pay the MF would have to bear a much higher cost as the resort will pass on their higher costs to those now fewer owners who are sticking around.  Also with near empty resorts the timeshares costs may be much higher than usual if they are not getting restaurant and shop sales revenue and profits. Is this not a danger in the current situation and perhaps for some time?


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## TheTimeTraveler (Sep 24, 2020)

jayk77 said:


> I am also considering buying a resale but I have a question.  If lots of people stop traveling by air for long periods or even for years to places such as Aruba or Hawaii as they do not want to fly won't that lead to much higher costs and result in rapidly increasing MFs.  That could further lead to many people walking away from their timeshares in such places. Then the people who continue to hold and pay the MF would have to bear a much higher cost as the resort will pass on their higher costs to those now fewer owners who are sticking around.  Also with near empty resorts the timeshares costs may be much higher than usual if they are not getting restaurant and shop sales revenue and profits. Is this not a danger in the current situation and perhaps for some time?




You offer some valid points, and if you don't feel comfortable buying resale at this time then you should sit back and wait unless a Vaccine is developed or the pandemic environment changes.....




.


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## LisaRex (Sep 25, 2020)

I love resort-branded TSs.  For 7 years, we owned an OF villa at WKORV; In 2014, we sold it and have been happy renters ever since.  No regrets about owning, no regrets about selling.  

Now that we're within 5-7 years of retirement, we're mulling getting back into the TS game, possibly buying multiple weeks so that we can book back to back weeks and "snowbird" there.   So we've been starting to research various properties and are paying closer attention to prices.   However, even though we've seen a softening of prices, we will definitely wait to purchase anything until we see what the fallout of COVID is.

Hotels are already in big trouble, as few corporations built enough cash reserves to withstand an 18-24 month pandemic, which is how long experts are predicting it will be before an efficacious vaccine can be developed and broadly administered. TSs that rely on MFs are in slightly better shape, because they collected their annual revenue before the pandemic hit, but this will last only for as long as owners are content paying MFs on properties that they cannot, or will not use, for fear of contracting the virus.  

And, of course, unemployment will continue to rise as more businesses fail.  If given the choice between paying their mortgage or their luxury TS, we all know what their priority will be.  And that will inevitably lead to more delinquencies.

Delinquency rate is a HUGE deal for TS owners, because as jayk77 says, higher delinquencies translate into higher MFs for those who continue to pay.  Anyone who owned a TS in 2008/9 saw this first hand.  At WKORV, our MFs skyrocketed from $1700 to $2400 in 3 short years.  We were on the verge of a domino effect that threatened our TS, and it was a very popular, highly rated TS. Happily, the domino effect was stopped in its tracks by a very quick economic recovery, which meant that the HOA was able to quickly find new owners to feed the machine.  

This pandemic is much more profound than the US housing crisis.  Its full impact has yet to be felt, but it's already negatively impacted every country in the world, every industry in the world (except possibly construction), and until a vaccine is developed, will continue to threaten us, physically, economically, and emotionally.   

Marriott Vacation World understands the risks and called them out in its most recent 10-K report:  "Once a property owners’ association begins to experience a high default rate, if it is unable to foreclose and resell units to paying owners, the situation worsens as the maintenance fees assessed to remaining owners continually increase to cover expenses. In these circumstances, not only could our management fee revenue be adversely affected, but the vacation ownership properties could fall into disrepair. If the property owners’ associations that we manage are unable to levy and collect sufficient maintenance fees to cover the costs to operate and maintain the resort properties, such properties may be forced to close or file for bankruptcy, which may result in termination of our management agreements. "





__





						0001524358-20-000011 | 10-K | Marriott Vacations Worldwide
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Marriott Vacations Worldwide's business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.




					ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com
				




And then you have the continued threat of global warming which may ultimately make coastal properties uninsurable, and the threat of lawsuits from owners unhappy that they were locked out of their "deeded" properties. 

If I owned a TS now, I wouldn't necessarily sell now, but IMO it's too risky to buy.  YMMV.


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## jayk77 (Sep 27, 2020)

Yes good points, so it may not be a good time to buy but better to wait and see what happens.  At the same time Air BnB is providing a lot of new travel options for travelers which makes being locked into a timeshare less appealing.  I do like traveling to Marriotts timeshares and being an "owner" but if the MF get too high it would be hard for me to justify owning financially.  I also liked being able to trade my Marriott week for other Marriott weeks but if the point system and Marriott make it difficult to get good Marriott exchanges that is another possible concern.  Marriott's salespeople have told me that it will get increasingly difficult to find availability for II exchanges with other Marriotts as more and more owners shift to electing their weeks for points.  As Marriott Vaction Club has purchased II they can also make it harder to make good exchanges with resale weeks.


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## rthib (Sep 27, 2020)

jayk77 said:


> I also liked Marriott's salespeople have told me that it will get increasingly difficult to find availability for II exchanges with other Marriotts as more and more owners shift to electing their weeks for points.



The logic flaw with this theory is that resale owners can’t take advantage of points program as they remind you. So where do all those weeks go?


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## GaryDouglas (Sep 28, 2020)

LisaRex said:


> And then you have the continued threat of global warming which may ultimately make coastal properties uninsurable, and the threat of lawsuits from owners unhappy that they were locked out of their "deeded" properties.



I don't think we need to worry about global warming anymore.  Obama bought the Waimanalo property, made famous as the Robin Masters estate in the Magnum P.I. series, and if he feels it's safe owning beach property (I think he also bought at Martha's Vinyard), then we can be rest assured it's now safe to own beach front property.


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## bogey21 (Sep 28, 2020)

LisaRex said:


> Marriott Vacation World understands the risks and called them out in its most recent 10-K report:  "Once a property owners’ association begins to experience a high default rate, if it is unable to foreclose and resell units to paying owners, the situation worsens as the maintenance fees assessed to remaining owners continually increase to cover expenses. In these circumstances, not only could our management fee revenue be adversely affected, but the vacation ownership properties could fall into disrepair. If the property owners’ associations that we manage are unable to levy and collect sufficient maintenance fees to cover the costs to operate and maintain the resort properties, such properties may be forced to close or file for bankruptcy, which may result in termination of our management agreements. "



It is unusual for a Company to be so straight forward.  Kudos to Marriott...

George


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## ljmiii (Sep 28, 2020)

GaryDouglas said:


> I don't think we need to worry about global warming anymore.  Obama bought the Waimanalo property...then we can be rest assured it's now safe to own beach front property.


Neither insurance companies nor banks care about anecdotal evidence. Florida is the canary in the coal mine on this issue as worries in the insurance industry about waterfront property have backed into the availability and price of 30 year mortgages. Also, asset management companies like Blackrock are now managing portfolios and advising clients with an eye to profiting off of market opportunities created by climate change. From a 2019 advisory...

"...These tools give us unique insight into the severity, dispersion and trajectory of climate-related risks. This helps us assess whether the risks are adequately priced by markets. Our early findings suggest investors must rethink their assessment of vulnerabilities. Weather events such as hurricanes and wildfires are underpriced in financial assets, including U.S. utility equities. A rising share of municipal bond issuance is set to come from regions facing climate-related economic losses. And many high-risk commercial properties are outside official flood zones....

...We focus on three sectors with long-dated assets that can be located with precision: U.S. municipal bonds, commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS) and electric utilities. Hurricanes pose a threat to the finances of southern U.S. states; rising sea levels make coastal real estate vulnerable; and power plants in the Southwest have exposure to extreme heat. A localized assessment of such risks under different climate scenarios can provide investors with 1) a sharp lens for risk management and diversification; and 2) an informed basis for engaging with companies and issuers about their climate resiliency and capital spending plans."


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## bogey21 (Sep 28, 2020)

Although I am somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to Climate Change I readily  acknowledge I could be wrong.  As such I don't think I'd put big money  into an oceanfront property....

George


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## rthib (Sep 28, 2020)

I trust Al Gore, I bought Canyon Villas as an Ocean Front play


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## GaryDouglas (Sep 28, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Neither...


I think you missed the irony embedded within my statement, that those most concerned verbally within the political elite about global warming, in action and deed act as if they are not concerned at all.  His vote was in the multi-millions of dollars of his own money...


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