# Anyone else thinking of dropping out of MVC Destinations program?



## PamMo (Dec 2, 2013)

Just curious... Am I the only one who enrolled in the points program, who is going to drop out? I enrolled my Marbella week, thinking it was my one and only chance to try out the program. It was a rash decision.  The point allocation really is too low, and the options too limited with my one week, to justify paying an additional $211.75 ($175 Standard Club Dues + $36.75 Spain VAT) for membership next year.


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## EKniager (Dec 2, 2013)

Never planned on trading in my unit for points.  The $175 is a huge savings for folks who pay for annual II membership + locking off + trading each half + potentially re-trading.  It's an economic savings and provides an account where we could utilize rented points, if we desire sometime.  Everyone's usage is different.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 2, 2013)

You've been enrolled and know already that it doesn't work for you so it seems like you're making the right choice.  The only negative I see to dropping the DC Membership is that if you decide to re-enroll at a later time, you'll be subject to the enrollment rules and fees that are in effect at that time (and I would guess that fees will only go up.)

If you've done any DC Points rentals, you probably already know that when you un-enroll you won't be able to do them the same way (by transferring rented Points into your DC account.)  But you'll still be able to rent reservations made by DC Members using their DC Points, and from what I understand those rentals are offered on the same per-Point basis as Points Transfers.  And of course, using your Week as a Week makes no difference whether you're a DC Member or not.

[eta] If you do end up un-enrolled, it will be interesting to know how that affects your II accounts.  I'm guessing you'll lose the DC-related account and will have to revert back to the individual account that you had prior to enrollment.  In my case, that account expired so I'm wondering what payment/term options would be available to reinstate it.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 2, 2013)

good evening...

Pam...please follow the bouncing puck and let me know if my logic makes sense... You have already paid the enrollment fee, so that $$$ is gone... As an enrolled member even if you never use DC points, you pay $211 club dues.  This covers exchange fees, lock off fees  and cancellation fees.  If you un-enroll  you will  have to go back to the yearly II fee ($100).  If you just occupy your week every year then you save $100 yearly and possibly more as you would not need an II account to occupy. However if you exchange your unit just once a year in II, then you need to pay the II fee $100 + the exchnage fee (over $100).  You are right back at $211.. With DC if you book your week and change your mind there is no cancellation fee. If you lock off your unit and exchange both as an unenrolled member you pay the II yeraly fee and TWO exchange fees, clearly losing $$$...

As Sue stated, if you're enrolled you can always rent points (for just above MF) and get some nice hook ups!!!

My advice

STAY ENROLLED... the enrollment fee now is $2100


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## NJMOM2 (Dec 2, 2013)

Second that!  Stay enrolled!


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## PamMo (Dec 2, 2013)

OK, I appreciate the thoughts, and maybe I am missing something? 

When I signed up, I knew what my points allotment would be, and I thought it might make sense. Since my weeks are all resale, this was my sole opportunity to try out Marriott's points-based program. I have points with Hilton and Starwood, and really like their flexibility, but I have high value weeks worth a lot of points. My problem with enrolling the Marbella week is that it is a straight 2BR (no lock-offs at Marbella), and Marriott gives the unit little value (2,975) compared to what I can get with Interval trades, owner-to-owner trading, or simply renting it out. It would make sense to be in the DC program if I could enroll my resale oceanfront KBC 2BR (a lock-off worth more points), but I can't. I already have an Interval account, so I'd just roll it back into that.

Like EKniager wrote, everyone's usage is different. I got some use out of the program by using the "free" week I got for signing up for a wonderful week at Surfwatch, but from now on I have to get some added value for the membership fee, and I don't see it where I'm going to get it.


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## GrayFal (Dec 2, 2013)

PamMo said:


> OK, I appreciate the thoughts, and maybe I am missing something?
> 
> When I signed up, I knew what my points allotment would be, and I thought it might make sense. Since my weeks are all resale, this was my sole opportunity to try out Marriott's points-based program. I have points with Hilton and Starwood, and really like their flexibility, but I have high value weeks worth a lot of points. My problem with enrolling the Marbella week is that it is a straight 2BR (no lock-offs at Marbella), and Marriott gives the unit little value (2,975) compared to what I can get with Interval trades, owner-to-owner trading, or simply renting it out. It would make sense to be in the DC program if I could enroll my resale oceanfront KBC 2BR (a lock-off worth more points), but I can't. I already have an Interval account, so I'd just roll it back into that.
> 
> Like EKniager wrote, everyone's usage is different. I got some use out of the program by using the "free" week I got for signing up for a wonderful week at Surfwatch, but from now on I have to get some added value for the membership fee, and I don't see it where I'm going to get it.


You say *weeks* - so if you have two Marriott weeks and exchange one a year - the exchange fee is now $170+ and the yearly II fee is $89.

That is more then $211….what are we missing?


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## rsackett (Dec 2, 2013)

GrayFal said:


> You say *weeks* - so if you have two Marriott weeks and exchange one a year - the exchange fee is now $170+ and the yearly II fee is $89.
> 
> That is more then $211….what are we missing?



It sounds like she has two II accounts.  One for the points program and one for the KBC week she can not enroll.  So if she drops out she could have just one II account, and therefore save some money.

Ray


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## GrayFal (Dec 2, 2013)

rsackett said:


> It sounds like she has two II accounts.  One for the points program and one for the KBC week she can not enroll.  So if she drops out she could have just one II account, and therefore save some money.
> 
> Ray


If that is the case, then this is true.


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## suzannesimon (Dec 2, 2013)

I will probably stay in the program but may not convert to points again.  I converted to points and went to Grande Chateau in March but it really was a waste.  I have 2 holiday weeks that rent for a lot of money compared to the number of points they assigned them.  
If I'd rented my 3 BR and rented the Grande Chateau from an owner, I would have come away with an extra $2,000 in my pocket.  I'm finding the same is true with II exchanges.  I'd like to buy a good Marriott trader,  but, of course, they wouldn't let me enroll it in the Destination Club anyway so I'm using my Hyatt in II and that is working well.  I mean, how many vacations do I need anyway?  Answer: as many as possible!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 2, 2013)

GrayFal said:


> You say *weeks* - so if you have two Marriott weeks and exchange one a year - the exchange fee is now $170+ and the yearly II fee is $89.
> 
> That is more then $211….what are we missing?



Actually the exchange fee for Marriott to Marriott trades is around $124, it may have gone up recently. With the II annual fee being $89, the OP would be at an almost break even point with the week. However, since they are currently paying for a separate II account of an illegible week, they will save $87 a year by un-enrolling ($211-$124).

I am not sure I would un-enroll or not. The OP sunk a lot of money in enrolling a resale week. Of course that money is gone and there really is no way to recoup that financially like many that own multiple weeks or lockoff weeks. However the OP can always get two weeks out of one and still save two exchange fees on II trades.


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## GrayFal (Dec 2, 2013)

"Non-Marriott" exchanges are $164.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 2, 2013)

GrayFal said:


> "Non-Marriott" exchanges are $164.



True, but you don't save anything on those by being enrolled in DC.


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## PamMo (Dec 3, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> ..However the OP can always get two weeks out of one and still save two exchange fees on II trades.



Getting two weeks of vacation out of one sounds good, but it's not so easy to do with 2,975 points. In II, that trades for a 2BR with a TDI value of 50-85, or a 1BR with a TDI value of 115-135.  I have much cheaper traders than my gold week in Marbella. Even II Getaway weeks can be cheaper for low demand weeks. I think the deal killer is that my week is a straight 2BR. I can definitely see that I would save money if it was a lock-off.


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## swaits (Dec 3, 2013)

PamMo said:


> In II, that trades for a 2BR with a TDI value of 50-85, or a 1BR with a TDI value of 115-135.



Being enrolled doesn't take this option away from you!

Stay enrolled. You've nothing to lose.


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## MALC9990 (Dec 3, 2013)

Pam seems to own a 2 bed unit at Marbella. There are no lock offs at Marbella Beach Club. Not even the 3 bed units lock off. Also as a European resort, she probably was only able to enroll as of June 18th 2012 and so paid a much higher enrollment fee unless she already enrolled a US resort week from June 2010.

As such it was probably not worth enrolling just the one week in the DC but what's done is done. Un-enrolling is however a more complex issue as has already been highlighted by other posts. 

For me the cut off point for enrollment in Europe was 3 weeks owned, 2 or less weeks was not an economic proposition even if you had a lock-off option.

I would probably cut my losses now and put this down to experience - UNLESS I was planning to rent points to add to my total and then that might change my view.


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## dmharris (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi Pam,

Can you call II and see if you can combine your memberships?  It seems that would save you some money.  Also, looking at the points charts, you can get something for 2900 points, if you can travel in off season.  It takes time to explore all the scenarios, but it could be doable.  

Best,

Diane


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## Saintsfanfl (Dec 3, 2013)

dmharris said:


> Hi Pam,
> 
> Can you call II and see if you can combine your memberships?  It seems that would save you some money.  Also, looking at the points charts, you can get something for 2900 points, if you can travel in off season.  It takes time to explore all the scenarios, but it could be doable.
> 
> ...



It is impossible to combine a personal II account with a Marriott corporate account.


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## dmharris (Dec 3, 2013)

For all:  We just did a presentation two days ago at Frenchman's Cove and though we're members of the DC, we don't own points, nor do we plan to at this time.  Owning a two bedroom lock-off that we trade every year, we joined as it will save us cash over the course of time.  

I told the sales people, if I want points, I can rent them.  They came back with "why not own the points and rent them to others?"  I don't see that as a money maker.  Do you?

They sell the DC as being more flexible, which I agree, but I told them I have my own Flexibility Club with my Marriott Rewards, Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood rewards, Frequent flier miles on over four airlines and points accumulated from credit card purchases, e.g. American Express points.  My "club" gives me "free" flights or hotel stays, as I need them.  They didn't press me.  They were very congenial and polite.  I was pleased with this presentation.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2013)

MALC9990 said:


> As such it was probably not worth enrolling just the one week in the DC but what's done is done. Un-enrolling is however a more complex issue as has already been highlighted by other posts.



Did I miss a vital thread about un-enrolling? I thought to unenroll you simply don't pay the DC annual fee? How complex is it?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2013)

dmharris said:


> I told the sales people, if I want points, I can rent them.  They came back with "why not own the points and rent them to others?"  I don't see that as a money maker.  Do you?



They certainly aren't. Especially trust points at developer prices. With trust point MF at $0.45 pp, you can probably only rent at a small premium. This would take a long time to earn back that upfront cost.


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## Fasttr (Dec 3, 2013)

Another point worth at least pondering for a moment is whether you believe down the road, Marriott will re-open a window of time to allow post 6/20/10 resale purchased weeks to be enrolled in the DC.  If that were to occur in the next 5 years from now as an example, would it be worth it to pay the $211.75 per year for the next 5 years to keep your Marbella week enrolled if you knew you would be interested in enrolling your KBC 2BR lock off in the DC.  Only you can make that decision, and there are certainly a lot of ifs and buts to consider, but as you pointed out, if you were able to enroll your KBC lock off, then it may make sense for you to be in the DC.  Would hate to have you effectively throw away the enrollment fees you have already paid if you think this is at all a possibility in the not to distant future.


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## PamMo (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Your points are ones that I considered when I enrolled the week. There were a lot of "ifs" that factored into my decision, the biggest were if I could/would make good use the flexibility of points, and the faint hope that I'll be able to enroll my KBC week in the future. We LOVE our Marbella timeshare, and have used the week once, and traded with another owner since joining DC - so I haven't used the Destination Club system yet (other than our "free" stay at Surfwatch), so the fees seemed like such a waste. 

Your suggestions/advice made me take another look at the points chart, and I see some options that might work for 2015 (like many TUGgers, we plan our vacations _w-a-y_ ahead), so I will probably stay in DC a bit longer and try to make it work. Thanks again.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 4, 2013)

good morning

Pam

good call...

just curious... What season is your Marbella..maybe you and I could trader some day... Spain is on the 2015 list!!!!


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## dansimms (Dec 4, 2013)

*Marbella*

Just as an FYI......those of us in the Destinations Program, DO have the option of getting into the Marbella property at either the 1BR,2BR or 3BR in exchange for points.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 4, 2013)

dansimms said:


> Just as an FYI......those of us in the Destinations Program, DO have the option of getting into the Marbella property at either the 1BR,2BR or 3BR in exchange for points.



We do, though those are all dedicated units. There are no lock off 2BR or 3BR units. Only dedicated, so the OP can't lock off.


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## Ron98GT (Dec 4, 2013)

Based on what the OP has written so far, it sounds like the OP should sell Marbella and buy a good 2-BDRM L/O trader.  If the OP didn't buy Marbella to stay there, wants to trade, and Marbella isn't a L/O, why keep it and why stay in Marriott points if it doesn't give the OP what she wants?  The OP doesn't get enough points to trade for a full week somewhere else in Marriott.  Plus the OP lost the ability to trade into somewhere else nice within II.

With a good trader, the OP could trade into Marriott & Westin TS's: Marbella, Paris, Aruba, St Kitts, Thailand, Hawaii, Cancun, etc. 

I used my 2-BDRM L/O trader twice this year.  First, the studio got me into a 2-BDRM OV/front Ko'olina unit.  Then the 1-BDRM side got me into this great 2-BDRM Ocean Front Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (WKORV) unit, which I'm typing this post from. 

Next year I'll be using the studio to stay in a 2-BDRM Marriott on Kauai.  Then I'm using the 1-BDRM to stay in a 2-BDRM Westin TS in Cancun.  Marriott points can't get me all these great trades.

Just asking


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## PamMo (Dec 4, 2013)

Ron, that's my original thinking as I'm in the "own where you want to go" camp. But Marriott's limited time offer for enrolling in the Destination Club hooked me in the end.  I didn't want to be shut out of different options if/when I want to trade. The problem is I haven't wanted to trade and have paid the fees for nothing so far. I think my issue is that if I stay enrolled, I HAVE to use points. Unfortunately, I didn't have that all figured out when I joined (I already had two years of vacations planned out). I own several other timeshares, so have plenty of access to Interval and RCI trades.

Puckman, I own a gold week which is a great (although weirdly and sporadically assigned) combination of spring, summer, and fall weeks. Since I'll probably try out points for 2015, I can't help you with an owner-to-owner trade, but I will tell you that it's a great resort!


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## swaits (Dec 5, 2013)

PamMo said:


> I think my issue is that if I stay enrolled, I HAVE to use points.



Why? Won't you be able to choose whether to elect your week(s) each year like the rest of us?


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## pipet (Dec 5, 2013)

One negative to me initially that no longer exists is that I envisioned getting stuck in a point redemption trap; i.e. once I elected I would always need to carry over or borrow points each year, pretty much getting me stuck with points instead of my week.  However, the thriving points rental market has relieved my concerns in this area completely. Instead of borrowing, I can rent additional points thus preserving my future weeks, and I can always rent out any excess points so I don't have to worry about orphan points.


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## rthib (Dec 5, 2013)

If you own multiple-weeks and they are lock-off, program is a no-brainier.
The fee savings is worth it and the flexibility to use points when you want them (and during cheap times) makes the math work.

I like the option for points once I get overloaded with weeks as it gives me an option. 

But one week, no need to trade and limited use for points - can't see any reason to stay (or to have enrolled in the first place.)


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## PamMo (Dec 5, 2013)

swaits said:


> Why? Won't you be able to choose whether to elect your week(s) each year like the rest of us?



Since I have one lonely non-lockoff week enrolled, paying the DC fees only makes sense if I convert it to points. Using it or trading it in II is cheaper (since I already have a II account).


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## dansimms (Dec 5, 2013)

*Weekday Nights are cheaper*

Other considerations are that the Destination Program will accommodate as few as a 1 night stay and you can also go over 7 nights or have concurrent units booked...., you get a reduced rate on points for 5 nights of the week (Avoid Friday and Saturday nights), you get a reduced rate for non- peak seasons and for smaller unit sizes if that works for you.  With DP point requirements as low as just 50 per night for a 2BR unit..........with proper planning and flexibility, your 1 week could easily translate to 3 weeks or even more in the program if you are not set on weekends, high demand properties and multiple bedrooms.  We stay at the Marriott Hotels on Friday and Saturdays sometimes, either with $ or using the Hotel Points.


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## swaits (Dec 6, 2013)

PamMo said:


> Since I have one lonely non-lockoff week enrolled, paying the DC fees only makes sense if I convert it to points. Using it or trading it in II is cheaper (since I already have a II account).



Ahhhh. Yah, many of us only needed the II account for Marriott properties. So, in my case, the II account which is included in the DC is all I need.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> Pam...please follow the bouncing puck and let me know if my logic makes sense... You have already paid the enrollment fee, so that $$$ is gone... As an enrolled member even if you never use DC points, you pay $211 club dues.  This covers exchange fees, lock off fees  and cancellation fees.  If you un-enroll  you will  have to go back to the yearly II fee ($100).  If you just occupy your week every year then you save $100 yearly and possibly more as you would not need an II account to occupy. However if you exchange your unit just once a year in II, then you need to pay the II fee $100 + the exchnage fee (over $100).  You are right back at $211.. With DC if you book your week and change your mind there is no cancellation fee. If you lock off your unit and exchange both as an unenrolled member you pay the II yeraly fee and TWO exchange fees, clearly losing $$$...
> 
> ...




We are of course, choosing to ignore the hidden cost of the skim!

Each time you trade for points, Marriott pockets 6%-8% relative to the number of points you should be getting for your week...


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## Ron98GT (Dec 6, 2013)

swaits said:


> Ahhhh. Yah, many of us (1) only needed the II account for Marriott properties. So, in my case, the (2) II account which is included in the DC is all I need.



(1). You are missing out on some great Westin exchanges, like those on Maui, Kauai, and Cancun. 

(2a). I never heard that you got an II account (free or otherwise) with a Marriott points account. 

(2b.) Normally you give up your Marriott "week" and deposit it int II, a weeks based system, in exchange for another "week" within II.  Since you gave up your Marriott week for Marriott points, I don't understand how you can deposit your Marriott points into II for a weeks exchange.


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## Fasttr (Dec 6, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> (1). You are missing out on some great Westin exchanges, like those on Maui, Kauai, and Cancun.
> 
> (2a). I never heard that you got an II account (free or otherwise) with a Marriott points account.
> 
> (2b.) Normally you give up your Marriott "week" and deposit it int II, a weeks based system, in exchange for another "week" within II.  Since you gave up your Marriott week for Marriott points, I don't understand how you can deposit your Marriott points into II for a weeks exchange.



I believe *swaits* is saying that all of his TS's are Marriott's and all of them are enrolled in the DC, and the fact that the annual dues he pays for the DC includes an II account (just as you get an II account included if you are a pure Trust point owner), and via that II account, he can trade for in-Marriott or out of Marriott TS's just like he could before the DC, and if he elects points for his weeks (which he can do property by property and year by year), then he works within the DC to book his Marriott weeks.


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## Mamianka (Dec 6, 2013)

DanCali said:


> We are of course, choosing to ignore the hidden cost of the skim!
> 
> Each time you trade for points, Marriott pockets 6%-8% relative to the number of points you should be getting for your week...



We believe that being retired and having fun is a FULL-TIME job, if you do it right.  So, obsessive retired music directors that we are, we (that would mean *me* . . ) keep a big database of all our bookings and all our plans.  Through some juggling, smoke, and mirrors, we have gotten back WAAAY more that we put in - both in number of days and weeks, and in the size of the units.  Counting 2011,12,13,14,15,16 ( if things continue to work out as they have been) we will have 56 Master units (nights) and 56 Guest units to deposit.  As things have been going for us, we will have 94 Master units and 28 Guest units used - so we have picked up ten nights, and you can see that the percentage of Master units is now considerably over the previous 50 percent.  Instead of Marriott pocketing a skim, we have in fact gained on the situation - and no, we are not at the beach in the Winter to do this. There are far more people here that are a lot smarter than the 2 of us, and have more properties in play - and all kinds of status that we do not - but if we can get this to work, then most people can, I would think.
One can argue that Marriott indeed STILL pockets a skim on this, and that we are just wringing blood from a stone - but we do not do this all in point usage, but in a blend of trades as well.  ALL in Marriott properties - depends on what/where/when gives a better deal on a trade or on point usage.  And to *clean up* leftover points if I am going to then keep my properties the following year, renting has worked out well - and we now find that we are going to rent just 75 more - so for $37.50 (figuring 50 cents a point rental), we will get one more night at the end of a short vacation, instead of having leftover points that go stale and are unused.  You can tell this comes from a Mom who has had extensive casserole experience, and was raised by folks who were raised in The Depression!  Mom used to say "Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without!"  Works for vacation points, too.

Mamianka


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## dioxide45 (Dec 6, 2013)

DanCali said:


> We are of course, choosing to ignore the hidden cost of the skim!
> 
> Each time you trade for points, Marriott pockets 6%-8% relative to the number of points you should be getting for your week...



Hey Dan, long time no see. Did you ever enroll your Marriott weeks or did you end up selling?


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## swaits (Dec 6, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I believe *swaits* is saying that all of his TS's are Marriott's and all of them are enrolled in the DC, and the fact that the annual dues he pays for the DC includes an II account (just as you get an II account included if you are a pure Trust point owner), and via that II account, he can trade for in-Marriott or out of Marriott TS's just like he could before the DC, and if he elects points for his weeks (which he can do property by property and year by year), then he works within the DC to book his Marriott weeks.



This is exactly right. For people in my situation, the DC is a no brainer.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 6, 2013)

good evening....

Dan... welcome home... not every transaction in DC points involves a skim.  

Example... took one of my 2014 Koolina weeks MV..got 4025 points... got 5 nights in 2 bedroom Summit Watch prime ski season 2/23-2/28 for 2750 points... added 3 nights in 3 bedroom TownHome at Lakeshore early january 2014 for another 1200 pts.  Made 7 nights in Hawaii 2 bedroom into 5 nights ski season + 3 nights in 3 bedroom at Lakeshore during winter break.  I get 75 pts change!!!

Example   I get 3725 pts for my 3 bedroom GV  plat week.  Some of the weeks in my season actually cost less than those 3725 pts. If i choose to occupy one of those weeks I am better off using DC points and keeping the change!!!!

yes, the skim can hurt some, but a savy owner can beatthe skim!!!!

Most importantly... I don't have to use DC points..I can still play the II game and save $$$ with lack off exchange fees etc...


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## GregT (Dec 6, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> but a savy owner can beatthe skim!!!!



Sorry guys....I try to avoid skimming conversations....but I don't think the skim can be beaten, just worked around.

Puck my good man, your examples involve the Sun-Thurs travel and shoulder season travel in January.

These are great uses of the system -- and to be commended -- but Marriott still didn't give you the full value for your week when you redeemed it.   You're spending your money wisely and finding the values in the system, but you still got $0.93 for your 7-day Platinum dollar, you just aren't paying retail with the $0.93 that you received.

I get $0.86 on the dollar for my prime 3BR MOC summer week.

Please don't misunderstand me, there is a lot to like about the system -- and I like the reservations system and am glad I am DC, but I still think skimming blows.   

Imagine what I could do with 1,575 more points annually for my 3BR at MOC?   Go to Aruba for a week in October?   Or just rent them for $800?

Best,

Greg


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## puckmanfl (Dec 7, 2013)

good morning...

I agree ... skimming stinks!!!

I am still going to work around it....!!!

when life gives you lemons.... Make lemonade!!!!

p.s..  snow is just as sweet, when it falls Sun-Thurs...


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## GregT (Dec 7, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> when life gives you lemons.... Make lemonade!!!!
> 
> p.s..  snow is just as sweet, when it falls Sun-Thurs...



Very well said indeed!

And the golf courses are still green Sun-Thursday (and less crowded) and the sun still shines on the beach!

Sunday-Thursday is an example of a rocking use of DClub.  Some of the point values are terrific (like Ritz St Thomas).  I can stay next door at the Elysian for Friday/Saturday and then move to R-ST for something like 3,000 points during prime season (in a 2BR).   That's good value...

Best,

Greg


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## jimf41 (Dec 7, 2013)

At the risk of starting up an ROFR type fiasco I am submitting my usage that avoids negative "skim".

Deposit 3bdrm MPB Silver get 4225 points
Reserve 3bdrm MPB Gold 4000 points
Positive "Skim" 225 points

Deposit 2bdrm OS MPB Platinum get 4325 points
Reserve 2bdrm MFC Platinum 3725 or 4125 points depending on week selected.
Positive "skim" 600 points or 200 points depending on week selected.

Deposit 2bdrm OF MPB Silver get 3825 points
Reserve 2bdrm MFC Platinum 3725 or 4125 points depending on week selected.
Positive "skim" 100 points depending on week selected.
Negative "skim" 300 points depending on week selected.

When you factor in the original purchase price and the current MFs I believe I'm deep in to positive territory as far as "skim" is concerned. I have yet to take advantage of some of the perks given to Premiere Plus owners but it's nice to know they are there if I decide to use them. It's also nice to know that I can revert to the old rules/old system anytime I choose. Should I ever decide to deposit one of my MFC weeks I would almost certainly decide to take that route. Only 3650 points are awarded for my Platinum 2bdrm MFC but it takes 5225 to 5900 points to get a Platinum MPB 2bdrm. I would be much better off trying for an II trade.

I didn't make the rules for this game but like any game if you want to win you have to understand the rules and use them to your advantage. If you keep trying to play the new game by the old rules you are going to lose. 

Some folks can't win the new game at all but they can still win if they stick to the old game and use the old rules. That's the beauty of the system IMO. It allows all owners to choose which set of rules they want to use to play the game. While I have chosen to play by the new rules in the new system others have done very well by combining or playing both systems at the same time.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 7, 2013)

jimf41 said:


> At the risk of starting up an ROFR type fiasco I am submitting my usage that avoids negative "skim".
> 
> Deposit 3bdrm MPB Silver get 4225 points
> Reserve 3bdrm MPB Gold 4000 points
> ...



I think this isn't necessarily a skim issue, but just shows how MVCI values individual weeks within the system. MBP is an oddity since they gave more points to silver weeks than they did gold weeks. The skim issue is really only so when trying to book back in to your same resort and same season. Some people can reserve with points back in to their home resort and come out ahead, other weeks cost more.

This is where the flexibility is important. Not very often would someone be reserving back in to their home resort unless it is for a stay of less than 7 nights or perhaps to come out up in points. As legacy owners we can still reserve our home resort week. So if you get 2000 points and the week you want costs 2250 points, just book with your week. If the week you want costs 1800 points, convert to points and come out 200 points ahead.

So as legacy enrolled owners, we have the flexibility to work the system and get the best value. Now of course for someone like Greg, $800 worth of points is a lot. It seems that the skim hit fixed weeks owners harder than those in a floating system. Perhaps MVCI figured with fixed weeks, once a week was broken in to smaller chunks, unloading those left over days would be more difficult?


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## Fasttr (Dec 7, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Now of course for someone like Greg, $800 worth of points is a lot. It seems that the skim hit fixed weeks owners harder than those in a floating system. Perhaps MVCI figured with fixed weeks, once a week was broken in to smaller chunks, unloading those left over days would be more difficult?



For Shooters like GregT, $800 is nothing.  He tips his caddies more than that during a week in Maui, I am sure!!


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## pipet (Dec 8, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Now of course for someone like Greg, $800 worth of points is a lot. It seems that the skim hit fixed weeks owners harder than those in a floating system. Perhaps MVCI figured with fixed weeks, once a week was broken in to smaller chunks, unloading those left over days would be more difficult?



The largest skim is for people with high demand weeks but DC allotment was set as plat.  This happened at several resorts.  Because they are high demand weeks, I tend to think it's not because Marriott thought the days would be hard to unload, but more because they thought they could get away with it (and they did)!

I also agree the skim should not be ignored; it is a built-in exchange fee that reduces savings but is kind of forgotten in the process. It does NOT allow for like-for-like trades without a point shortage (which is sometimes *much* more than an exchange fee), and that is a real negative. However, if you have a high value week, and you know your schedule will not allow you to get much use out of ACs or XYZs, you might lose more value in II with a trade.  As much as I am not a fan of skim, I did actually get into points for down-trade purposes; renting my excess points out for cash is a LOT more useful to me than the AC week I get with II for depositing!

I do agree we have to make lemonade with what we have & make the best vacations we can, whether we use points, II, or private trades (which I think is best if you really want like-for-like).


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## DanCali (Dec 19, 2013)

GregT said:


> Sorry guys....I try to avoid skimming These are great uses of the system -- and to be commended -- but Marriott still didn't give you the full value for your week when you redeemed it.   You're spending your money wisely and finding the values in the system, but you still got $0.93 for your 7-day Platinum dollar, you just aren't paying retail with the $0.93 that you received.



Great explanation of the skim concept. 

The points program fees don't stop at the $2000+ enrollment fee (free for II, forexample) and the $200+ annual Club dues (~85 for II). The skim can be a multiple of that over time...


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## DanCali (Dec 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Hey Dan, long time no see. Did you ever enroll your Marriott weeks or did you end up selling?



Neither.

I use them or rent them out (mostly rent). Living in Florida, the it's very useful to take advantage of the MOD discounts in Orlando (need to be an owner for that), so as long as we go a few nights a year that adds up.


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## jtdillian (Dec 19, 2013)

*What is this skim?*

What is this skim everyone is always talking about?


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## SueDonJ (Dec 19, 2013)

jtdillian said:


> What is this skim everyone is always talking about?



For an overwhelming majority of Weeks in the Marriott system, if enrolled in the Destination Club they are allotted a fewer amount of Points than it would cost to reserve them in the DC.  For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF Week is allotted 3725 DC Points but it costs 4000 to book most 7-day OF intervals that correlate to dates in the Gold season.  The difference is what TUGgers call, "skim."

There are a very few exceptions - as he did up-thread TUGger jimf has posted extensively about the DC value he gets from his Frenchmen's Cove weeks.  That's because the DC Points Charts don't always align perfectly with the established Weeks Calendars, so then it's sometimes possible to get better DC value if you can take advantage of the lower-Points-cost dates.

Some TUGgers also refer to "skim" when enrolled Weeks do not get the same usage value from DC Points that they do from exchanging in II.  It's a valid argument for some who got better II exchange value than like-for-like.  But for others who own non-lockoff-3BR or high-Points-allotment Weeks, II didn't always offer like-for-like exchange value anyway.


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## WFP (Dec 19, 2013)

The Skim does provide one additional feature to the weeks owner and that is the ability to start a 7-day stay on any day of the week at their home resort.  This as opposed to having to start on a Fri/Sat/Sun.  

It would be impossible for every owner to do this if you went to the extreme theoretical.  It would lead some dates open for multiple units and some owners unable to book their weeks.

While I don't like the Skim, that is one of the benefits derived from the Skim.

Bill


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## puckmanfl (Dec 19, 2013)

good evening....

Dan...

Where in Florida do you hail from....

maybe someday we can hook up at a local pub and share a glass of "skim" milk!!!:hysterical::whoopie:

I hail from the hockey hotbed of Tampa

Go Bolts..


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## DanCali (Dec 20, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening....
> 
> Dan...
> 
> ...



I'm in the southeast part.


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## DanCali (Dec 20, 2013)

jtdillian said:


> What is this skim everyone is always talking about?







SueDonJ said:


> For an overwhelming majority of Weeks in the Marriott system, if enrolled in the Destination Club they are allotted a fewer amount of Points than it would cost to reserve them in the DC.  For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF Week is allotted 3725 DC Points but it costs 4000 to book most 7-day OF intervals that correlate to dates in the Gold season.  The difference is what TUGgers call, "skim."
> 
> There are a very few exceptions - as he did up-thread TUGger jimf has posted extensively about the DC value he gets from his Frenchmen's Cove weeks.  That's because the DC Points Charts don't always align perfectly with the established Weeks Calendars, so then it's sometimes possible to get better DC value if you can take advantage of the lower-Points-cost dates.
> 
> Some TUGgers also refer to "skim" when enrolled Weeks do not get the same usage value from DC Points that they do from exchanging in II.  It's a valid argument for some who got better II exchange value than like-for-like.  But for others who own non-lockoff-3BR or high-Points-allotment Weeks, II didn't always offer like-for-like exchange value anyway.



The definition Sue provided is subjective. Let me try and give you a more objective definition, which reflects how GregT explained it and how I view it.

For most points systems you have "points in = points out". 

What that means is that if you add up all the points given to owners for all the units for all the weeks  in the points system you get X. Now if you add up all the points it takes to reserve all those same units you get Y. most timeshare systems X=Y. For Marriott X<Y.

This is accomplished by Marriott in the following way: If you choose to covert to points, you get 6%-10% less than the average points needed to reserve a week in your season. 

For example, if I take all the Platinum weeks at NCV (weeks 23-51, excluding week 26) and compute the average points required to reserve a week in that season I get approximately 3700 points. Now, if all the owners in that season got the same ~3700 points when converting a week (regardless of whether they intended to visit in July or November) then that would be "fair" in the sense that "points in = points out" and there would be no surplus of points in the aggregate. However, last time I checked, Marriott was offering 3475 to convert one of those weeks to points, approximately 6% less. This shortchanges owners by about 225 points each time they convert to points (~$100-$120). Marriott can potentially use that difference to make its own reservations for the most desirable weeks (you can't work faster than their computers) and rent them out. This is just an example - I'm not sure how they use the surplus of points but there is undeniably a surplus they capture.

Note that this is an "objective" definition in the sense that it looks at what your week should get to obtain "points in = points out" (the average points required to book a week in the season) versus what it actually gets. As Greg puts it - any way you look at it, you get 90 to 94 cents for your dollar in terms of points conversion. This is essentially an extra fee you pay each time you convert to points (those touted II fee savings are not really all there...)

The reverse skim argument, which people who like to travel weekdays and shoulder season raise, goes as follows: NCV Platinum season runs from June to December. if I like NCV in November (say I go on each Thanksgiving), I need only 2900 points to reserve that week. That is much less than 4725 points needed for the July and August weeks, when most people want to travel with their kids who are on break. I would be better off converting to points, getting the 3475 points, using 2900 to book my reservation and having almost 600 points left over to book another short reservation elsewhere or rent those points out. This is true... but it's true even if Marriott gave owners 3000 points for converting their weeks to points (you'd still have 100 points left over). Should owners be happy if they got 3000 points? Is 3000 points fair? Is 3475 fair? What is the "fair" number?  

I'd argue it has to be "points in = points out"; or about 3700 points in the example above (note that - referring to Sue's explanation - it still won't allow me to reserve a summer week with points since a summer week is 4725 points, but at least there will be no surplus in the aggregate, and therefore no skim based on my definition, if they did that). Marriott doesn't need to capture a hidden fee on this. They already got fees when people enrolled and when they pay annual club dues.


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## m61376 (Dec 20, 2013)

And to add to DanCali's excellent explanation above: there are several properties where not only owners were allotted an aggregate of less points than required to reserve weeks in the season, there are many properties where owners weren't allotted enough points to reserve any weeks, or at least most of the weeks, in their season.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 20, 2013)

DanCali said:


> (those touted II fee savings are not really all there...)



For those that never convert to DC points, those touted II savings are fantastic. One is either using II or using DC with any given week, so I don't think the DC point skim has any effect on II exchange fees.


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## billymach4 (Dec 20, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> For those that never convert to DC points, those touted II savings are fantastic. One is either using II or using DC with any given week, so I don't think the DC point skim has any effect on II exchange fees.



Really? How do you explain that when I own resale weeks that straddle the June 2010 date. I own 2 weeks pre June 2010, and 1 week post June 2010. What is Marriott going to do for me?

Or to a resale owner that owns post June 2010. 

If I dive into the DC I have to pay the DC club fees, and an II membership? Or if I own post June 2010 then I have to buy points and rent points, and pay DC dues, and an II membership.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 21, 2013)

DanCali said:


> The definition Sue provided is subjective. Let me try and give you a more objective definition, which reflects how GregT explained it and how I view it.
> 
> For most points systems you have "points in = points out".
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how subjective it is to say that "skim" is the difference between how many DC Points an enrolled Week is allotted and what it costs to book a same interval with Points.  That's basically what I said, pointing out that "the overwhelming majority of Weeks" suffer skim.

I think it's more subjective to get into the whole, "Marriott _should_ or _could_ have done blahblahblah differently ..."  IMO that's a wasted exercise.  Skim exists.    As long as we recognize it, then we can know how to figure it into the equation of which exchange company - II or the DC - is the better value depending on the Week(s) we own.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 21, 2013)

good morning...

Thank you Sue.... you hit nail on head...

Of course, skim exists..it is basically the DC exchange fee... but the good news is that I can choose wether to be skimmed or not....I can do good ol fashioned II trading... under DC club..or I can play in DC and accept skim.... 

If I wanted to trade like/like I do an II trade an accept what I get within my parameters.  If I want to mix and match, cancel, do a short stay, name my dates and view and change if necessary... I take my skim and work my system.

DC is just an added option!!!!

There is some myth about II inventory drying up.  I think that is for the gang that works hard to upgrade. 2 bedrooms from 1 etc.  I believe that like for like is still in business...  

Plerase remmeber for Sue (3 bedroom non lock off at SW and my brother (Pres week at Aruba) they do much better (even with skim) playing in points...


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## dansimms (Dec 21, 2013)

*II account with Destinations Program*

I recently added to my Marriott portfolio to get to the Premier Plus level.  I had already been in the Destination Program and I was surprised to see that another II account was created, so I asked II to merge the two.  Does anyone think I made a mistake in doing so?  I just thought it would be simpler and much less likely to have an unexpected invoice show up in the future.  The II person that I dealt with at the Marriott II number seemed like a Junior Rep and didn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy that I had done the right thing.  Thoughts?  Since it was a merger and not a cancellation, I did feel that there shouldn't be any negative consequences.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2013)

dansimms said:


> I recently added to my Marriott portfolio to get to the Premier Plus level.  I had already been in the Destination Program and I was surprised to see that another II account was created, so I asked II to merge the two.  Does anyone think I made a mistake in doing so?  I just thought it would be simpler and much less likely to have an unexpected invoice show up in the future.  The II person that I dealt with at the Marriott II number seemed like a Junior Rep and didn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy that I had done the right thing.  Thoughts?  Since it was a merger and not a cancellation, I did feel that there shouldn't be any negative consequences.



There are advantages to merging the two. They really should be combined. If you ever opt to upgrade to II Gold or II Platinum status, having only one account means all your weeks and points would be covered by the new status. I don't see any negative consequences to doing this.


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## dansimms (Dec 21, 2013)

*Thanks !*

Thanks for your input.  I figure I will check with Marriott Destinations Desk in a couple of weeks, after the dust settles, and make sure it is intact with anything I would like it to do for me.  Much Appreciated!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2013)

billymach4 said:


> Really? How do you explain that when I own resale weeks that straddle the June 2010 date. I own 2 weeks pre June 2010, and 1 week post June 2010. What is Marriott going to do for me?
> 
> Or to a resale owner that owns post June 2010.
> 
> If I dive into the DC I have to pay the DC club fees, and an II membership? Or if I own post June 2010 then I have to buy points and rent points, and pay DC dues, and an II membership.



I am not sure how un-enrolled weeks are getting hit at all. The skim does not apply to you in any way since you can't convert your weeks to points.

If you opt to enroll your pre 6/10 weeks, they would be covered by the annual DC fee and any exchanges would be covered at no additional cost as would the II account for those weeks. Of course you would have to pay an II membership and exchange fees for the un-enrolled ineligible week.

Marriott really doesn't owe you anything or has to do anything for you. They are still providing you the ability to reserve your week and exchange it through II under the terms prior to DC roll-out.


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## Big Matt (Dec 21, 2013)

What I've found to be the best value with the DC is to use it to the fullest advantage.

Stay Sunday through Thursday.  Weekends are almost the same points total for two days as the five week days.

Continue to lock off and deposit one of my units every other year with II.  I still get great trades with II for places that I like to go and which are easy to get (Williamsburg, Orlando, etc.).  Plus there's no exchange fee.

Leverage Marriott Rewards points when possible to bridge a 12 day trip.  Sunday to Thursday in a timeshare, Friday and Saturday in a Marriott Hotel and five more DC nights Sunday through Thursday.  I basically get 10 DC nights for about what a seven day stay costs me and I get either one or two rooms using Rewards points for the middle.  It's not that easy to do, but in places where you have timeshares and hotels in the same area or on the same property that helps (Orlando, Myrtle Beach, Hawaii, etc.).


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## billymach4 (Dec 21, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how un-enrolled weeks are getting hit at all. The skim does not apply to you in any way since you can't convert your weeks to points.
> 
> If you opt to enroll your pre 6/10 weeks, they would be covered by the annual DC fee and any exchanges would be covered at no additional cost as would the II account for those weeks. Of course you would have to pay an II membership and exchange fees for the un-enrolled ineligible week.
> 
> Marriott really doesn't owe you anything or has to do anything for you. They are still providing you the ability to reserve your week and exchange it through II under the terms prior to DC roll-out.



Maybe I should restate my point. Not looking for anything from Marriott. I just want to state that the DC membership, and savings for II in my situation are not at all a benefit if I ever decide to join the DC. I have a mixed bag of weeks that are eligible for the DC and not eligible. I would still have to pay for a separate membership in II if I eventually enroll in the DC.  My issue is that I don't see any savings in the DC membership.

Note: My attitude has slightly changed in the last month since I have seen the experts here tout the benefits of enrolling in the DC, and renting points. This may be something I might consider in a few years. Especially now that I have had a taste of the Hawaiian destinations and now of course I want to return.


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## csalter2 (Dec 22, 2013)

billymach4 said:


> Maybe I should restate my point. Not looking for anything from Marriott. I just want to state that the DC membership, and savings for II in my situation are not at all a benefit if I ever decide to join the DC. I have a mixed bag of weeks that are eligible for the DC and not eligible. I would still have to pay for a separate membership in II if I eventually enroll in the DC.  My issue is that I don't see any savings in the DC membership.
> 
> Note: My attitude has slightly changed in the last month since I have seen the experts here tout the benefits of enrolling in the DC, and renting points. This may be something I might consider in a few years. Especially now that I have had a taste of the Hawaiian destinations and now of course I want to return.



BillyMach4, I own only one week with Marriott at Ko Olina and I find value in the DC. First, I have II so that cost is absorbed and if you do an exchange to another Marriott, which I do, that cost $124 cost is gone , if I lock off that cost is gone, if I trade for MRP that cost is also gone. So I do all of these at some point so to me even with only one week there is benefit.  Oh and yes, I have worked the system and rented points to my advantage to ensure my reservations through a Premier Plus owner at 13 months out.  My point is that there are some great advantages to enrolling in the DC if you are a weeks owner.


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## DanCali (Dec 23, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure how subjective it is to say that "skim" is the difference between how many DC Points an enrolled Week is allotted and what it costs to book a same interval with Points.



But how do you define "the cost to book the same interval"?

In the DC, a season can have 20 weeks and each week can, in theory, require a different number of points to book. Those who travel in the lower demand weeks will feel like they didn't get skimmed (or are benefiting from "reverse skim"). Whose who travel in the high demand weeks will feel like they got shortchanged. If there is one week in a season that requires 2000 points to book and 15 other weeks in the season that require 2500-4000 points to book then is 2300 points good enough? They guy who books that low demand week may be happy, but my point is that he would also be getting 80 cents on the dollar because his week should be worth many more points.

So what is the right number of points?

Note that in the example I gave, even if NCV Platinum gave owners 3700 points when converting, those owners still can't reserve the high demand summer weeks which require 4725 points. But 3700 (or maybe it's around 3690) points would be a "fair" number because it represents the average points required to book a week in the season and there would be no points surplus in the aggregate captured by Marriott. I don't think there is any other way to look at it.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 23, 2013)

DanCali said:


> But how do you define "the cost to book the same interval"?
> 
> In the DC, a season can have 20 weeks and each week can, in theory, require a different number of points to book. Those who travel in the lower demand weeks will feel like they didn't get skimmed (or are benefiting from "reverse skim"). Whose who travel in the high demand weeks will feel like they got shortchanged. If there is one week in a season that requires 2000 points to book and 15 other weeks in the season that require 2500-4000 points to book then is 2300 points good enough? They guy who books that low demand week may be happy, but my point is that he would also be getting 80 cents on the dollar because his week should be worth many more points.
> 
> ...



About what I bolded - there isn't a RIGHT number of Points!  There are only the amounts that Marriott has allotted.  Trying to figure out whether they're "fair" or not is like what I said before, a wasted exercise.  Over the years we've all thought at different times that Marriott was being unfair - if we all decided to drop our timeshares based on that, none of us would own Marriotts anymore! 

IMO the way to think about skim reasonably is to to recognize that it exists with Exchange Points usage and then move on to, "what does it do for/to me?"  For some it's a deal-breaker, no doubt.  For others not so much because they've figured out how to get as much value as they want to get from their enrolled Weeks despite the skim.  A few very lucky others get more value from the DC than from II or Weeks usage, making skim completely immaterial.

(I got into this because of the simple question, "what is this skim everyone's talking about?"  But I agree with dioxide in the other conversation in this thread - that skim is completely irrelevant if you enroll Weeks in the DC for the simplified fee structure, using them as Weeks and never converting to DC Points.)

Getting back around to the OP's question, if you've enrolled and are gaining no benefits at all from the DC - none that you've seen and none that you can reasonably see in the future - then not renewing your enrollment sounds to me like a good plan.  If enrollment in the DC is costing you more than if you hadn't enrolled, with no uptick in usage value, then it's a no-brainer - don't renew.


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## billymach4 (Dec 23, 2013)

*What about unused points?*

Lets say you have 10,000 points in a given year. 

Puck comes along and tells you how to score some great vacations for your points and you have about 700 unused points from some reverse skim?

What do you do with the unused points if you can't use or rent out? Do they get forfeited? Carry over? I thought they expire at some point?


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## billymach4 (Dec 23, 2013)

csalter2 said:


> BillyMach4, I own only one week with Marriott at Ko Olina and I find value in the DC. First, I have II so that cost is absorbed and if you do an exchange to another Marriott, which I do, that cost $124 cost is gone , if I lock off that cost is gone, if I trade for MRP that cost is also gone. So I do all of these at some point so to me even with only one week there is benefit.  Oh and yes, I have worked the system and rented points to my advantage to ensure my reservations through a Premier Plus owner at 13 months out.  My point is that there are some great advantages to enrolling in the DC if you are a weeks owner.



That is a great deal. But in my case I would continue to have an II membership for my Ocean Pointe week since it is post 6/2010. Unless of course I occupy or rent out. At this point I would want to deposit and exchange that week via II. So I must maintain a separate II account.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 23, 2013)

billymach4 said:


> Lets say you have 10,000 points in a given year.
> 
> Puck comes along and tells you how to score some great vacations for your points and you have about 700 unused points from some reverse skim?
> 
> What do you do with the unused points if you can't use or rent out? Do they get forfeited? Carry over? I thought they expire at some point?



Points expire as of the end of their Use Year, yes.  They can be banked a single year ahead providing you do the banking transaction prior to the banking deadline and they can be rented out (either as Points to other DC Members or, similar to the Weeks system, as a reservation to non-DC Members.)

Careful management is needed, no doubt, to avoid losing Points to expiration.  VacationPointExchange.com is invaluable there, facilitating rentals/transfers of unused Points.

(The only Points system with which I was aware prior to Marriott's DC is Disney's - Points expire at the end of the Use Year in that system as well so Marriott didn't surprise me with that aspect of the DC.  In fact, I still don't understand how a Points system can allow points to have perpetual usage value while still satisfying the supply/demand inventory controls.   )


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## rpw (Dec 23, 2013)

DanCali said:


> However, last time I checked, Marriott was offering 3475 to convert one of those weeks to points, approximately 6% less. This shortchanges owners by about 225 points each time they convert to points (~$100-$120). Marriott can potentially use that difference to make its own reservations for the most desirable weeks (you can't work faster than their computers) and rent them out.



I'd have to really think about this a bit, but it does sound like the "skim" does actually cost you money.  Every time I convert my TS to DC points I'm leaving money on the table.  So much for the "savings" over II.  It sounds like I'm either paying it to II or Marriott.


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## suzannesimon (Dec 23, 2013)

There are owners that never go anywhere but their home resort during their home season.  I run into them all the time on vacation more often than I run into people who trade.    They don't need points or II at all.  Trading is more complicated that they want to deal with.  

I think you can find the true value of a week by checking the rental prices.  It's interesting to see what the fair-market rent is compared to the points allocated to a resort by Marriott, Hyatt or Starwood.  Sometimes the points gotten are a real deal - other times not so much.  In those cases, try renting your week for a reasonable amount and renting where you want to go - one or more units - because you'll have the money to do it without the hassle of waiting for a trade to come through.  Aruba is an example of a place where you can get excellent rental income where the point-value is just not comparable.


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## csalter2 (Dec 23, 2013)

*There is only a "skim" to weeks owners*

I have been a points owner since early 2000 and when Sunterra now Diamond Resorts International (DRI) took over in 2004, I became quite proficient with their use.  Marriott has a little twist here and there with the DC program, but it is very similar to DRI.

It's only when you have been in a weeks system that you are concerned with a skim. If you have only bought points from the beginning, the skim means absolutely nothing to you because all you know is that you need a certain amount of points to stay in a particular unit. It is really insignificant in the big scheme of things because as a weeks owner you don't need to use points to stay in your unit anyway for that year's use.  So since I own Ko Olina if I reserve it for next year and stay there it's no problem. I reserve it as usual without points. However, if I don't stay there and want to go some place else or I want to use it next year, I would have to go through II. II charges you fees for this. You have to have you II membership and your fee for the exchange.  So why is it that everyone makes such a big deal about this "skim" you would have to pay for it one way or another.  

One of the beauties of Marriott's program that I don't have with DRI is the renting of points.  What is great is that if you do have some extra points left over, is that you can save them and carry them into the new year or rent some additional points to make use of them so you are not leaving anything there.  I used the 800 additional points the I was given when I joined the DC program to extend a stay. However, I could  have rented just enough points to take advantage of some of the other Marriott DC benefits so as not to use them. 

I just think it's very important that people need to understand that the key is the planning of your vacations and to be one step ahead in your plans. Yes, you can waste a lot of points by not knowing what you can and cannot do, but more importantly you can waste points by not having a plan to utilize the points.


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## Ron98GT (Dec 24, 2013)

rpw said:


> I'd have to really think about this a bit, but it does sound like the "skim" does actually cost you money.  Every time I convert my TS to DC points I'm leaving money on the table.  So much for the "savings" over II.  It sounds like I'm either paying it to II or Marriott.




So if you have a 2-Bdrm TS, you don't even get a full week worth of points: you didn't pay II but you were skim'd by Marriott.  And, although you did'nt have to pay II, you pay'd Marriott thousands up front to join the points system. Plus, you have to pay someone to rent points from them so that you get a full week.

If that 2-Bdrm was a lock-off (L/O), you first lock it off with Marriott and secondly deposit both sides into II.  Third, you use both weeks to reserve two TS weeks somewhere (Hawaii?), with a worse case of a studio for a week and a 1-Bdrm for a week.  Fourth, you watch II and upgrade each week to two 2-Bdrm's.  Did'nt have to dish out thousands to Marriott to join their points system.  Did'nt have to pay someone to get points to stay 1-week.  Did have to pay II.  Did get 2-full-weeks in 2-Bdrm TS's at Ko'olina and WKORV.  

Hmmm, less than 1-week vs 2 full weeks in 2-Bdrm TS's.

I'm not picking on you, I just don't get this Marriott point system and never will.  I'd like to see Marriott lose enough money so that they revamp the system and go to something more like the HGVC system and open it up to all MVC owners. (I know dream on).  In the mean time, I'll keep getting 2-weeks for the price of one MF.


Sent from my iPad Retina using Tapatalk


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## csalter2 (Dec 24, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> So if you have a 2-Bdrm TS, you don't even get a full week worth of points: you didn't pay II but you were skim'd by Marriott.  And, although you did'nt have to pay II, you pay'd Marriott thousands up front to join the points system. Plus, you have to pay someone to rent points from them so that you get a full week.
> 
> If that 2-Bdrm was a lock-off (L/O), you first lock it off with Marriott and secondly deposit both sides into II.  Third, you use both weeks to reserve two TS weeks somewhere (Hawaii?), with a worse case of a studio for a week and a 1-Bdrm for a week.  Fourth, you watch II and upgrade each week to two 2-Bdrm's.  Did'nt have to dish out thousands to Marriott to join their points system.  Did'nt have to pay someone to get points to stay 1-week.  Did have to pay II.  Did get 2-full-weeks in 2-Bdrm TS's at Ko'olina and WKORV.
> 
> ...



Ron,  I am sure you are probably talking off peak times for getting those 2 bedrooms for studios with II.  I am also betting that you are not talking about getting those weeks during Christmas, New Year's or Thanksgiving and I know that you are not talking about July or August. I am also sure you are not talking about getting Maui Ocean Club, WkORV, Waohai, or the 2 bedroom South Carolina Marriott timeshares during peak season as well.  You will be waiting for a while for your reservation with II to be confirmed while waiting for it to maybe come through you risk booking airline reservations which may need to be altered or you wait and you may need to pay higher fares.  With the DC program, I am able to CONFIRM my exchange 13 months out, make my reservations midweek if I would like to ensure the absolute cheapest of fares, extend my stay if I decide, cancel it with no cost and cheaply rent when and if needed to avoid those ever increasing maintenance fees.

Also, since I own in Hawaii, I can get even more time from my one week, since I do get over 4000 points, points paying attention to the size of unit and time I travel. like you did with II except I will have an advantage over you because I will get that exchange over you because I won't be waiting like you will with II.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 24, 2013)

good morning...

Ron, Carlito


no need for debate here...

The beauty of DC is that is isn't either/or but BOTH.  You can play in II, uptrade all day (if open) get 2 weeks for 1 MF and save tons in previous II fees.  You can also play in DC (even with skim).  For example...to me (fri-sat are meaningless) Thus I can get 8 ski days in 3 bedroom in Tahoe for the price of 7 nights in Orlando.  I can mix and match all day long (even cancel)  I get exactly the view I rtequest (avoid the II view skim).  How do you think Gregt would feel if he traded beloved 6206 and snagged garden view at surf watch????  As Carlito, pointed out..you save real $$$ by adjusting the stay to when the flights are!!!!

DC is just another option for us Legacy folks... MVCD gave us a home run!!!!


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## live4life (Dec 24, 2013)

*Gone from DP pgm*

I initially bought points but got out of the program this year. My reasons were simple: I did not like the Sunday to Thursday travel (I felt clever when I first began the program but soon realized that I wanted more days but did not want to pay more money for points just to stay weekend days), I became very comfortable with the idea of going to the same resort on a yearly basis, and realize that I can rent points from other members in the event that I want to go to another Marriott location.

I posted before that the DP pgm is similar to a gravitational field: the more mass you have (in this case points) the more pull you'll have in getting what you want. Having only 3k points, I did not have enough to do much "the way I wanted to." The properties that I own are NOT eligible for points since they are post June 2010 purchases.

Marriott TS is a great program when weeks are involved. The points system is simply not a good deal for folks with too few points (<6500 pts would be by position as a minimum to have) but GREAT for those with a lot of points. I can't help but imagine that the math on this program will bare a few facts: if the base of people with too few points (i.e. less than 6500 pts) continues to grow, with the desire to go to a high season place and a very desired spot, and the ability to rent points is not an option, then you will have a lot of folks exiting - like I did. 

Therefore, I obviously don't disagree with anyone leaving the DP pgm ... I just feel badly for folks who will be like me in thinking that reservations to desired places can be had.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 24, 2013)

good morning

live4....

I agree 100%...DC points as a stand alone product aren't great.  Way pricey, with potential limitations of inventory...  I love the program as an adjunct/addition option overlayed on my weeks product....

Weeks , especially resale are a great option as well.... MVCD did make it perfectly clear that poist 2010 weeks would not be DC eligible.  They had to, otherwise everyone would have purchased  resale weeks as a cheap point entry.  I do not limit my DC usage to 5 days... Also have a 7 night stay at 3 bedroom at Kauai Lagoons...  also rented some of my points to pay for a week in Greg's 6206....

My next purchase (If I get back in game) will be a resale Mountainside...


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## jtdillian (Dec 24, 2013)

*The dreaded SKIM!*

Not sure how but I would like to start a new post about the skim!

If you think about it who would elect their week for destinations points and then go back to their home resort in their season and pay more points to do so? Nobody!...exactly

I think Marriott did this to force us to reserve our week as we always did in the past! 

Think about it how many of us would take the DC points if we could stay at our home resort in our season but now we could check in on Tuesday or Wednesday vs. being forced to check in on weekends when everyone goes and airfare is more expensive or miles are hard to find! How many of you would take advantage of this if it was so? I'm betting a lot. I know I would Aruba is a lot cheaper to fly to during the week. Maybe Marriott doesn't want us to use points to go to our home resort just maybe!


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## dansimms (Dec 24, 2013)

*Skim*

Just a brief note about SKIM.  When you have purchased Trust points, the skim has already been taken out.....so in effect, when you are billed for the maintenance fee, you are receiving a small benefit in the form of a marginally reduced carrying cost.  Perhaps about 7 to 12 %...every year.  My 2500 Points in Trust yields the same as having perhaps 2700 that may have remained from a legacy week.


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## csalter2 (Dec 24, 2013)

jtdillian said:


> Not sure how but I would like to start a new post about the skim!
> 
> If you think about it who would elect their week for destinations points and then go back to their home resort in their season and pay more points to do so? Nobody!...exactly
> 
> ...



I used points to stay at my home resort. I did so because I wanted to have an oceanview room instead of the mountain view I own.  I usually don't mind the view, but I have friends coming who wanted that experience of an ocean view and I wanted to provide it for them.  The DC program makes that easy to do.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 24, 2013)

good morning...

jtdillian....

when you purchased your week, you knew that you were locked into a fri-sun check in with expensive airfares....  MVCD now gives you the option (for a fee/skim) to change your check in to Wednesday.  Hypothetically, you are taking a family of 4 for your week in aruba.  Let's say you get skimmed 250 pts for a 5000 pts. week.  At $0.5o/pt  your skim /fee is $125.  You now save $100/pp on airfare..saving $400   you win with a savings of $275!!!!  Just think of the skim as another exchange fee... every system has an exchange fee...

You have the optiuon of using or not using!!!!


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## SueDonJ (Dec 24, 2013)

jtdillian said:


> Not sure how but I would like to start a new post about the skim! ...



Oh, please don't!  It'd be the worst Christmas present EVER!  

We've been hashing out The Skim since the day - almost the minute! - the Destination Club was introduced, analyzing it umpteen ways upside-down and backwards.  At one point we were threatened that if we talked about it in any unrelated threads then we'd have to be put in time-out.  Thankfully that hysteria eventually died down - it's nice to just deal with the residual flareups where/when they happen infrequently.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 24, 2013)

good morning....

wondering if MVCD would have been better off whacking the "skim" and just putting standard exchange/cancellation fees on every DC transaction.... this  might have been a  more user friendly less regressive tax...The skim really punishes the trader that cashes in one week and tries to get another week with one transaction.  It helps me, who cashes in one week pay my skim and make multiple split transactions!!!

Merry Xmas all....


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## stoler527 (Dec 24, 2013)

What I really want Marriott to do is to relent and let me enroll my post 2010 weeks.

I would jump on that as it would save me a fortune!! 

I really don't want some weeks enrolled and not others. The savings on the enrolled weeks are eaten up by the fees for the unenrolled weeks.

Does anyone envision a scenario in which Marriott would relent?


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## csalter2 (Dec 24, 2013)

*Many others like you*



Crafty527 said:


> What I really want Marriott to do is to relent and let me enroll my post 2010 weeks.
> 
> I would jump on that as it would save me a fortune!!
> 
> ...



There are many like you who are hoping and praying that their post 2010 weeks will eventually become eligible for the DC program.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 24, 2013)

good morning....

Don't see any such scenario....

Can you imagine the wrath of all the new Trust purchasers when they figure out that they could have entered the program for 1/3 cost????  They had this problem with the old weeks program, but there wasn't much they could do about it.  They still can't limit use use of resale weeks as weeks (except for MR trading)..but they can control DC entry....

Every post 201o purchase knew the rules going in....

Only possible scenario is if DC point sales really dry up.  They will then require a purchase of new Trust points + a tariff to enroll...


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## sb2313 (Dec 24, 2013)

I certainly bought into marriott post June 2010(and enjoyed the low,low resale purchase prices too) but that doesn't mean that we can't stop hoping for a holiday season miracle enrollment offer despite the reality that puck correctly notes!
The DC has some great advantages and as someone on the outside looking in, I think the skim is something that can be managed/even avoided with use of all the tools we have available as owners(ie MOD discount for those weekend nights)
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all!


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## Fasttr (Dec 24, 2013)

Crafty527 said:


> What I really want Marriott to do is to relent and let me enroll my post 2010 weeks.
> 
> Does anyone envision a scenario in which Marriott would relent?



Currently, what makes the DC work well accross all MVC resorts is the enrolled weeks that get converted to points and land in the Exchange for all to get at.  That's the only way Trust points owners are getting into sold out, or nearly sold out MVC resorts.  

The only way I see MVC opening up the window for post 2010 resales to enroll, is if a large quantity of currently enrolled (pre 2010) weeks change hands and therefore become post 2010 resales which cannot again be enrolled without MVC opening up a new window.  If the supply of weeks at prime nearly sold out resorts dwindles to a point that it is very difficult to get into those resorts with points, I can see a point that MVC would open up another window.  That said, this is also likely why MVC is more agressively snagging weeks via ROFR, so they can control thier own destiny and not get into a situation that they HAVE to open up such a window.  

Only time will tell how it will all play out.


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## Ron98GT (Dec 24, 2013)

csalter2 said:


> Ron,  I am sure you are probably talking off peak times for getting those 2 bedrooms ...


Except for March/April, true.  And I did get a last minute upgrade to a 2-Bdrm from a studio at Ko'olina over spring break (unintentionally booked spring break and won't do it again) this year thru II.

Typically April/May and November/December for Hawaii (Marriott/II, HGVC, and/or RCI Points for HGVC).  Although, September is a good time for NYC (HGVC or RCI Points) and Europe (Hotels and/or cruises).


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## SueDonJ (Dec 24, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> Currently, what makes the DC work well accross all MVC resorts is the enrolled weeks that get converted to points and land in the Exchange for all to get at.  That's the only way Trust points owners are getting into sold out, or nearly sold out MVC resorts.
> 
> The only way I see MVC opening up the window for post 2010 resales to enroll, is if a large quantity of currently enrolled (pre 2010) weeks change hands and therefore become post 2010 resales which cannot again be enrolled without MVC opening up a new window.  If the supply of weeks at prime nearly sold out resorts dwindles to a point that it is very difficult to get into those resorts with points, I can see a point that MVC would open up another window.  That said, this is also likely why MVC is more agressively snagging weeks via ROFR, so they can control thier own destiny and not get into a situation that they HAVE to open up such a window.
> 
> Only time will tell how it will all play out.



The thing is, Marriott doesn't need Weeks to be enrolled in order to fuel the DC Exchange Company engine.  All kinds of inventory - not just enrolled Weeks - can be made available to both Trust and Exchange Members through the EC.  Probably their biggest source of inventory is Weeks deposited to II (from both unenrolled and enrolled Weeks Owners,) but they can also get their hands on Weeks exchanged for Marriott Rewards Points, un-booked Weeks, Weeks in arrears for MF's, DC Club Dues, mortgages, etc.

I have no idea if/when they'll open up the enrollment option to post-6/20/10 (and post-6/18/12 Euro) resale Weeks but no doubt if it happens, it'll be at a steeper price than what's in effect now.  And no doubt either that if it happens, it'll happen the exact same way it did on 6/20/10 with no lead time - "as of today, external resales purchased prior to today may be enrolled …"  It wasn't a mistake or something they overlooked when they announced the way they did, it was by design so that people wouldn't raid the eBay coffers to buy up rockbottom-priced inventory that could be enrolled, or, that would be considered instead of a Points purchase.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 24, 2013)

I simply don't see MVCI opening up enrollment to post 6/20/10 and 6/18/12 weeks, at least not in how you would enroll a pre 6/20 or 6/18 week. The goal of any ability to enroll a week will be to sell new trust points. So I see them going the re-qualifying route kind of like Starwood does. So for a minimum new trust point purchase, you can enroll your week. Or perhaps convert your week to permanent trust points. What that minimum is, who knows. It could be a set price like $20K, or you may have to buy an equal amount of trust points. So if your week is worth 4,000 points, then you buy 4,000 trust points and you can enroll your week.

As others have pointed out, they really don't need the inventory at this time. They have many sources that they can get inventory from and it seems that many people are converting to points.

I am not sure how many people are selling pre 06/20 weeks that are enrolled. I am sure there are many. I for one will do everything and anything I can to not sell our two enrolled weeks. Enrolled weeks to us simply are too valuable.


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## pipet (Dec 24, 2013)

csalter2 said:


> So since I own Ko Olina if I reserve it for next year and stay there it's no problem. I reserve it as usual without points. However, if I don't stay there and want to go some place else or I want to use it next year, I would have to go through II. II charges you fees for this. You have to have you II membership and your fee for the exchange.  So why is it that everyone makes such a big deal about this "skim" you would have to pay for it one way or another.



It's true you pay one way or another, but in many cases, the DC fee is MORE costly than II. Let's say I want to trade my Waiohai for a summer 2BR summer week in Maui week.  Even with my points for Ocean View, I'd still be 375 pts short to get the lowest view category in Maui, so there is essentially a $187.50 exchange fee if I use DC to get to Maui, and I still have to pay the annual DC fee. If I go through II, Waiohai *will* pull a summer week no problem (and sometimes people luck out with a better view category), and I'd only pay $124, and an annual II fee is much cheaper than the annual DC fee. There are more extreme examples of the DC point exchanges that can result in even higher exchange fees than my example (it's just one that I've paid particular attn to!).  Of course, enrolling in the DC & then using II is a different approach that avoids skim because you never convert (and saves $ for people esp with lock-offs, etc), but my example is to address the inherent skim part when using points.  

If you as a KoOlina owner want to trade for HI properties, you'll also find yourself short in most cases. 

However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I'll modify how I make travel plans for each week on an individual basis & make the best out of the system. I fall solidly in the anti-skim camp, but since my other week is a lock-off, I joined for II fee savings (which back to OP, I agree w/o a lock-off it's much harder to save) and the occasional time when DC (even with the skim) might give me more than II (esp true if I can't use AC/XYZ).

Also, for those on the outside looking in, don't forget you can still rent points from those already in the system...


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## dioxide45 (Dec 24, 2013)

If the skim is the exchange fee, why does the amount of skim vary so wildly for different weeks? Some owners are only paying hundred or so points while some others are paying close to a thousand? Is it because they figured people whose weeks garnered more points would break there weeks up more?

The only thing I really don't like about the skim is that there is no transparency. What is MVCI really doing with the points? It doesn't seem like they are renting them out to earn income to cover our housekeeping costs due to the short stays? They are not forthcoming in any way as to what the skim is for, why it exists, or what they are doing with the surplus inventory that comes out of it.


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## Ron98GT (Dec 24, 2013)

pipet said:


> It's true you pay one way or another, but in many cases, the DC fee is MORE costly than II. Let's say I want to trade my Waiohai for a summer 2BR summer week in Maui week.  Even with my points for Ocean View, I'd still be 375 pts short to get the lowest view category in Maui, so there is essentially a $187.50 exchange fee if I use DC to get to Maui, and I still have to pay the annual DC fee. If I go through II, Waiohai *will* pull a summer week no problem (and sometimes people luck out with a better view category), and I'd only pay $124, and an annual II fee is much cheaper than the annual DC fee. There are more extreme examples of the DC point exchanges that can result in even higher exchange fees than my example (it's just one that I've paid particular attn to!).  Of course, enrolling in the DC & then using II is a different approach that avoids skim because you never convert (and saves $ for people esp with lock-offs, etc), but my example is to address the inherent skim part when using points.
> 
> If you as a KoOlina owner want to trade for HI properties, you'll also find yourself short in most cases.
> 
> ...




Being one of those outside looking in, MAY I ask how much you paid to join DC (if that's the correct way to phrase it?) using your Waiohai week? And how much do you pay annually? 

When talking about saving money on II fees, the 2 preceding fees must be taken into consideration.

thanks,



Sent from my iPad Retina using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Dec 24, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> Being one of those outside looking in, MAY I ask how much you paid to join DC (if that's the correct way to phrase it?) using your Waiohai week? And how much do you pay annually?
> 
> When talking about saving money on II fees, the 2 preceding fees must be taken into consideration.
> 
> ...



The fees to enroll were as follows:


Single Week Purchased through Marriott $595
Multiple Weeks Purchased through Marriott $695
Single Week Purchased Externally $1,495
Multiple Weeks Purchased Externally $1,995

If you owned multiple weeks and one was external, you paid $1995. Enrolling came with 800 PlusPoints as an incentive to enroll.

The enrollment fee has increased to $2,395 for any and all weeks. So the price increase in June 2012 was not as bad for resale multiple week purchasers as it was for direct purchasers. Those that enroll now get 3780 PlusPoints as an incentive.

The annual fee is $175 for those with less than 6,500 DC points, $215 for those with 6,500 or more. That went up last year, it used to be $165 and $199 respectively.


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## pipet (Dec 24, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> When talking about saving money on II fees, the 2 preceding fees must be taken into consideration.
> 
> Sent from my iPad Retina using Tapatalk



Ron98GT, trust me, I am not a Marriott apologist, and I understand why you don't like the DC program; I don't see it as all-wonderful, either. I see some pros, but I also see the cons. I agree 100% with what dioxide said; there is no transparency to the skim.  I'll believe it helps with housekeeping costs for short-stays when I see a line-item credit on the budgets at our resorts.  Until I learn differently, I see the skim as simple profit for Marriott.  Since you also have HGVC, I'm envious of how streamlined that system seems in comparison.

If I had only my Waiohai week, I would not have enrolled.  I love the Waiohai, but if I want to make alternate plans, I know I can rent it out or arrange a private trade (I've done both thanks to TUG).  However, I do have a lock-off, but since I only have one of those, it will take me longer than many to recoup my fees. Considering my usage patterns and counting all annual fees, signup fees, and bonus points, it might take me up to 10 years to break even, which is not great, and because of that, I vacillated for a long time before signing up.  What pushed me over to do it? Eventually, I believe I will save. I'll probably take advantage of re-trades more which might lead to some nicer scores, especially with my studio side. It also is ridiculously easy to rent out points (not that renting a week is hard, but points can be even less work).  

There are also some transactions that I can make & end up coming out ahead faster, even if I exchange my beloved Waiohai for points and add to Marriott's bottom line. For example, say I want to use my week to stay at a resort that rents for a higher amt than the cost would be in DC points. In those cases, I'm better off converting to points than renting out my week to get the week I want. Yes, I could also accomplish that in II; I'd get the week plus an AC/XYZ. However, in DC, I'd still have leftover DC points that could be rented, and then I'd have cash to use for airfare, etc; that's more useful to me than an AC (it's rare that I can take advantage of one ). Again, I fully understand Marriott made $ on that transaction, but my own bottom line will turn out better, too.  Most lower valued weeks would not be able to pull that off; I know I couldn't with my lock-off - II is the place for it!

Those on this board with many more weeks than I have are the ones who really can recoup their costs in a relatively short time: if someone has 5 weeks of lock-offs, think of how many lock-off & exchange fees they might have (not to mention re-exchange fees).  Someone in that situation might break even in a couple of years.


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## Ron98GT (Dec 25, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> The fees to enroll were as follows:
> 
> 
> Single Week Purchased through Marriott $595
> ...



Thanks Dioxide, that's the numbers that I was/am asking/looking for.

$2,395 + ($215 * 10 years) = $4,545 / 10 years = $454.50/year, additional cost.

Now the skim.  Lets say your MF is $1200/year/week = $300/day. If Marriott skims off 1-day/year that's a loss of $300/year.

Now you have $454.50 + $300 = $754.50 additional cost/year to use Marriott points each year for 6 days.  Naturally, you can subtract the II fee's out that you would pay for the use of 7-days.

What's also missing from the equation is the cost to buy/rent additional points for that missing day that was skimmed.  What would the cost be to buy an additional day at MOC or Ko'olina?  I've read that the average price/point is $11.96.  So, if someone needed 500 points, that would be $11.96 * 500 = $5,980 for 1-nite??  Am I missing something?

Not trying to argue or start an argument, just looking at the numbers and scratching my head in bewilderment.


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## m61376 (Dec 25, 2013)

Ron98GT- Another consideration when looking at the time to recoup the costs of joining is the value of the 3780 plus points you get for joining. If you have travel flexibility, they can be parlayed into a nice vacation. If needed, you can rent a few points to add on. 

For example, I had actually joined right before the price went up, having deliberated as to whether or not to join. The ease of point rentals and the potential opportunities there was a big factor in my decision. Anyway, when a few days later the rates went up (only $400 for me since I was enrolling resale weeks), but with 3780 pluspoints good for reservations within 60 days versus the prior 800 pluspoints, I was able to switch my enrollment and pay the higher fee, but get the extra points.

Ultimately, I was able to parlay those points into 3 2BR units in Orlando for 6 nights each, taking advantage of the 40% Marriott discount that was being offered last June. Getaways for that time period were 1K each (admittedly for 7 days versus 6). I landed up only needing 2 units, so rented one on the last minute rental board here, so that offset my enrollment cost a little. So my ~$1800 out of pocket cost was offset by having 2 2BR units at Harbour Lake for 6 nights, for the exact dates my daughter and son-in-law were able to make it. Memories of having four generations together, enjoying our 3 year old grandson at Disney and Sea World: priceless!! 

Especially if you utilize those Pluspoints for a Sun-Thurs stay, their value can offset the enrollment cost. Perhaps a 5 night ski vacation, or 5-6 nights in Aruba during Jan. or Feb. (in an OV or OS room that Marriott rents for ~$900 per night when you include taxes). Or multiple units elsewhere during off-peak periods, or if you happen to catch a promotion like I did. 

While it is still a sizable outlay in real dollars, I feel that the 3780 Pluspoints almost offsets the enrollment cost. At least I like to rationalize that it did :hysterical:

Just one more comment- while I agree that in many cases the point allocations and the skim are egregious, you can still use your weeks as you always did. The DC just gives you options. So you don't need to add in an additional cost for renting the points that were skimmed so you can get your full week at your home resort. The only time you lose relative value is when you elect to use points, insofar as that you are given less points from your home unit than it would cost to book it. I look at that as a fee for the added flexibility if I want to use it. But I can still use my week as always, or rent it for those weeks which have a higher rental value than point allocation value. But membership gives me the option of renting points from others if I want an additional unit or trip,


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## Ron98GT (Dec 25, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Ron98GT- Another consideration when looking at the time to recoup the costs of joining is the value of the 3780 plus points you get for joining. If you have travel flexibility, they can be parlayed into a nice vacation. If needed, you can rent a few points to add on.
> 
> For example, I had actually joined right before the price went up, having deliberated as to whether or not to join. The ease of point rentals and the potential opportunities there was a big factor in my decision. Anyway, when a few days later the rates went up (only $400 for me since I was enrolling resale weeks), but with 3780 pluspoints good for reservations within 60 days versus the prior 800 pluspoints, I was able to switch my enrollment and pay the higher fee, but get the extra points.
> 
> ...


The big advantage of TS's.


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## pipet (Dec 25, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> $2,395 + ($215 * 10 years) = $4,545 / 10 years = $454.50/year, additional cost.
> 
> Now the skim.  Lets say your MF is $1200/year/week = $300/day. If Marriott skims off 1-day/year that's a loss of $300/year.
> 
> ...



Most people would adjust your top equation to $215 (or 175) less $89 (annual DC fee vs annual II fee). Still, there is a lot to make up for.  Also, the skim for most resorts is 6-10%, so for most weeks it works out to be less than a day (so for your posted example, $120 would be a more likely amount instead of $300), but there are exceptions to that, too, where the skim is much worse (even more than $300 worse - that's back to dioxide's all skim isn't equal point).

The 3780 bonus points are worth something, certainly like a decent getaway on II. Most people would subtract that out of the cost if they can use it/rent it as m61376 pointed out.

The 11.96/pt is to purchase, and yes, 5980 would be crazy to pay for a night! But you can't even buy in 500pt packages (supposedly) so be ready to spring for at least 1000 pts....

However, the point rental price is substantially different. You can rent points for $0.50-0.60/pt, so a 500 point night would cost around $250 or so, and there are occasionally last minute point sales to be had as well.  You'll notice most people on TUG advise to rent points if you need them rather than buy them since they are so expensive to buy but relatively cheap to rent.

Like DanCali said earlier, overall points in the system does not equal overall points awarded, and that's just gravy for Marriott.  Even though we can nitpick the numbers, your point stands: converting to DC points results in a small to moderate loss to weeks owners.  However, despite that, there still is the example of the exchange I priced out; I can actually come out ahead using DC vs renting or II (due to the leftover points I can rent out).  Does Marriott still come out ahead? Absolutely. They get the skim the second I convert, but I only can choose the options available to me if I don't choose to use my week: exchange with II, rent my week out & use the cash to book my week, or use the DC.  For most weeks' owners, II gives the best values. Some weeks can rent for exorbitantly high rates, thus renting is almost always the best value. And in particular cases, the DC can work out well when DC points needed are less than rental rates. 

The fee savings people talk about are by joining the DC but then using II - a lot!  For the example I mentioned before (exchanging 5 lockoffs), here's how that would break down: annual II fee (89) + 10 exchange fees (10*124) + 5 lock-off fees (5*80) = $1729 in fees, all of which would be covered by the one time 2395 fee and an 215 annual DC fee, and that doesn't include any uptrade fees or the value of the 3780 pts.  In two years you'd spend $2895 with the DC (joining fee + 2 annual fees), whereas if you did that many trades in II, you'd spend $3458. Obviously the money saved is drastically reduced for those with less holdings/less trades, but that is the math that enticed a lot of people.

We have people on the board who love the DC because they like the booking process (no waiting for II to come thru) & frequently book stays that aren't in the 7 day traditional block. Are they paying a good bit to do that? Yup, but it works for what they want.

Santa just finished eating cookies & drinking milk and the reindeer have had some carrot greens, so off to bed. Merry Christmas!


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## puckmanfl (Dec 25, 2013)

good morning...

Merry Xmas to all...  Off to the second half of my traditional Xmas eve 2-11 shift, followed by Xmas day  9-6.  Actually, usually pleasant shifts!  I get Chanukah off!!! (sometimes)...

Just a couple of points...
not sure how $1200/week equals $300 day in MF
not everyonbe paid $1995 to enroll, although this is TUG, some of us did drink koolaid and purchase retail...and olny $695 to enroll
the 800 points I snagged made it a wash...

Just booked 2 3 bedroom 5 night stays in Tahoe late Jan 2015....  skim or no skim...there is just no way to do this with II, XYZ's ertc.  For soem of us, the skim is an acceptable fee for convenience, flexibilty, upgrading size/view...

Best of all, If the math doesn't work..I just do what I did before!!!!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 25, 2013)

Early on many people did analysis of whether to join or not simply on the fee savings. If someone owned only a single lock off week and purchased retail they figured that they could recoup their enrollment fee in about two years.

Fee to Enroll $595
DC Annual Fee $175x2=$350
II Membership Savings $89x2=$178
Lockoff Fee Savings $80x2=$160
Exchange Fees $124x4=$496

So for a single week owner that paid $945 to enroll and stay enrolled over two years, they saved $843 over that two year period in fees. Sometime in year three they broke even and would be ahead of the fee game from that point on as long as they continue to use their weeks as weeks the "old" way.

For us, as a resale multi week owner, it worked like this. I will use today's numbers instead of prior lower pricing that we paid. We own two lock off weeks. Our time to break even though was longer due to the higher fees. About four to five years. We still have less than 6,500 DC points, so our annual fee is still $175.

Fee to Enroll $2395
DC Annual Fee $175x4=$700
II Membership Savings $89x4=$356
Lockoff Fee Savings $80x8=$640
Exchange Fees $124x16=$1984

So for us a two week lockoff owner (four weeks of use each year), we paid $3095 to enroll and stay enrolled over four years, we would save $2980 over that four year period in fees. Sometime in year five we would brake even and would be ahead of the fee game from that point on.

Now this doesn't take in the ability to do retrades for no additional exchange fees. So it adds a whole new dimension to exchanging in II. In the past we would try to find the unit and size we wanted before confirming an exchange. Since if we booked in to a studio, trading up to a 1BR would cost us another exchange fee. Now if a studio will work, we will confirm it so we can buy airfare. Then we will watch for an uptrade and do a retrade if a larger (even a 2BR) unit shows up. I recently did three retrades at Ocean Pointe to get the exact unit type that I wanted, there is no way I would have paid an extra $372 to do that without being enrolled.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 25, 2013)

good morning...

It's all very simple....

prior to 2010 I had a very good product...Now, I have a great product with more options...

All I know is that I get a big smile from my TS usage.  If MVCD makes a profit, good for them.  That's how capitalism works.  They make me happy and make money too!  Maybe they can hire more people and keep the economy moving forward!!!  

Merry Xmas all...


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## SueDonJ (Dec 25, 2013)

There is altogether too much math in this thread - it's supposed to be school vacation!

Seriously, I do understand why some break down the financials into so much detail but for me it's far easier to think in terms of comparing the exchange possibilities of our Weeks between our historical II usage and the DC.  We come out on top with the DC because our historical exchanges were never like-for-like (not a knock on II, just a fact of owing non-lockoff 3BR's.)  Plus, I'll gladly pay for the convenience and immediacy of booking DC stays along with the expanded usage options of any-day check-ins and any-length stays.

Like Puck says, no doubt Marriott is making money off the DC.  Good!  If they didn't make money our ownerships would be a lot worse off than they are now.


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## tschwa2 (Dec 25, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> It's all very simple....
> 
> ...



The only concern is for those who bought resale after 2010 or if you are a pre 2010 legacy owner but now have to sell. Your resale value for at least 50% of the overall legacy value is now very low and like many other TS a lot of the off season weeks have 0 or negative value.   Owners who purchase those weeks now have an ok to good product.  Problem is with escalating MF's (95% of 2 br weeks are $1000+ per week which I believe is at least $200 more than ARDA's claim the average 2 br is) now ok may not cut it.  If those owners continue defaulting and Marriott can't absorb those weeks into the DC and resell them, then fees are going to keep rising as non enrolled owners won't see any value in owning a Marriott week. 

Even if Marriott doesn't let post 2010 weeks owners enroll, for all of the owners sake they need to make sure that all owners find some kind of value in owning a week or the system will be in trouble.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 25, 2013)

good morning...


resale value for any legacy week (with exception of a few elite weeks) is always a dicey proposition.  I don't think this has anything to do with DC...
resale value was less than 1/3 of retail in 2010 and remains so now...

p.s  MVCD could not care less about value of resale weeks...  They are happy to scoop these up via ROFR for pennies on the dollar!!!  That's how the Trust will be replenished and stocked...

In 25 years , the vast majority of Legacy weeks will be in the hands of the "evil empire"


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## Fasttr (Dec 25, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> The thing is, Marriott doesn't need Weeks to be enrolled in order to fuel the DC Exchange Company engine.  All kinds of inventory - not just enrolled Weeks - can be made available to both Trust and Exchange Members through the EC.  Probably their biggest source of inventory is Weeks deposited to II (from both unenrolled and enrolled Weeks Owners,)



Sue....perhaps this is a stupid question, but can you or someone explain how MVC gets weeks from II, which were deposited by non-enrolled owners, back into their hands to put into the Exchange.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 25, 2013)

good evening....

Fastr

pretty simple stuff... MVCD is now a preferred trader with II.  They deposit inventory and trade for inventory they need to grant DC requests!!!   It works like this... I deposit my Koolina week.  There is a DC wait list request for this.  MVCD gives them an Oceana Palms winter week from trust, they get the Koolina week and give it to the customer on DC wait list.  In the old system MVCD was a passive observer, now an active trading partner...

The initial FAQ's on the 6/2010 release identify II inventory as a source of inventory for DC exchange company...


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## Fasttr (Dec 25, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening....
> 
> Fastr
> 
> ...



Thanks Puck....I didn't realize MVC was an active trader like that in and out of II to help fulfill DC ressie requests.  Very interesting.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 25, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> Thanks Puck....I didn't realize MVC was an active trader like that in and out of II to help fulfill DC ressie requests.  Very interesting.



While they may be an active trader, we don't know how active they really are. I beleive some have done some tests with this. Had an active II request and an active DC waitlist for some Aruba inventory. The II exchange came through first. Meaning the DC program wasn't activly snaping up that II inventory to fulfill a DC waitlist. I think they only go to the II pot if they don't think they will be able to fulfill the request with actual DC deposits or some other means.


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## jimf41 (Dec 26, 2013)

In a theoretical world skim exists. I understand how some have come to the conclusion that Marriott gives about 6-7%  or so less to the weeks owners in points than they require to reserve. So when GREG T says they are giving you 93 cents on the dollar when you use points he is technically correct. Technically. You can choose any resort you want but the logic of skim as I’ll explain it remains the same. There are 20 weeks in the Silver season at Ocean Pointe. For simplicity I’m going to assume that they only have 1 3bdrm and I am one of the 20 owners in that season. Marriott gives out 4225 DC points for each 3bdr in the silver season for a total of 84,500 points. If all of the owners elected DC points to reserve their week Marriott would require 90,800 points. That’s a surcharge, or skim as some like to call it of 7%. That’s why people like to say you are getting skimmed 7% when you use points.

Lets step out of the theoretical world and get back to reality for a moment. Of those 20 silver weeks Marriott could have divided up their reservation requirement equally and required 4540 points for each week. If they had done that I would have had to agree that skim exists and it really is a serious problem. But they didn’t do that. Here is where we put our feet firmly back on earth and get a grip on reality. What Marriott did is they made the point requirement different for each period in the season, some more than 4540 some less. In effect they created a system of mini seasons through out the year. In the case of a 3bdr Silver unit they charged 5900 points for 8 weeks, 4000 points for 8 weeks and 2900 points for 4 weeks. If every owner converted to points to reserve their week Marriott would come out ahead of the game by 6300 points. That’s more than the most expensive week. 

But in the real world that doesn’t happen. The weeks owners who want to reserve one of the 8 weeks that Marriott wants 5900 points for are simply not going to convert to points but are just going to reserve it like they always did. If you subtract those weeks from both sides of the equation you are left with a total 50,700 points they’ve given out but they only require 43,600 points required to reserve the remaining weeks.  Marriott just lost 7100 points or a reverse skim of 14%. 

The same thing happens up the block at Oceana Palms. The only difference is that only 4 of the Gold weeks can be reserved for less than they give out instead of the 12 at Ocean Pointe.

Unless some Tugger can produce a live body that decided it was a good idea to convert to points and then try to reserve a week that requires more points than were given for the conversion, point skim is a myth. It exists only as a theoretical possibility. Some folks are going to say that they can’t reserve any week in their season with the number of points they were given and therefore Marriott skimmed them. To them I say read the first sentence in this paragraph again. Then go reserve your week like you’ve always done and don’t get skimmed.

I did not discuss how skim works in a Marriott to Marriot trade using points. There is a real possibility of getting skimmed when you do this. The factors and multiple permutations involved in this type of point usage are huge and it’s very difficult to figure out if you won or lost on internal trading in many cases.  There is also a lot of subjectivity involved. I suspect that this is where Marriott makes its money back though.


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## GregT (Dec 26, 2013)

jimf41 said:


> Unless some Tugger can produce a live body that decided it was a good idea to convert to points and then try to reserve a week that requires more points than were given for the conversion, point skim is a myth. It exists only as a theoretical possibility.



Jim, your argument is an interesting one, and I don't quibble with the gist of your points.

But I think I'm your live body, and that that theoretical point does play out in actual practice.   Like for Like isn't possible in a skimmed world (this was debated heavily at release between the Ko Olina/Waiohai crowd, who thought they had comparable properties, but couldn't trade through DC).

But I'm your live body because I can't take my Week 24 3BR, redeem it for points, and then book a Week 26.  Intelligent people will point out that my week 24 is fixed, and therefore I pay a price (13.6%) for the freedom to switch weeks from fixed week to fixed week, and trade my 7 days for 6 days -- but I can counterpoint that a fixed week owner is the perfect example of skimming.  No one can dispute that I received 93% on the retail dollar (or 86%) when a fixed week is effectively a season unto itself -- as there are no lower point weeks available to a fixed week owner to average against when trying to understand the logic.    

Skimming is an exhausting subject.  Marriott implemented it because they could -- and they needed to sell points.    They gave two tremendous gifts to legacy owners that counterbalance the insult (IMO) of skimming.   1) the ability to enroll at all and 2) the ability to transfer points.   I've always felt that #2 is a very powerful feature of the system and a major reason why I enrolled.

It's interesting to read this thread, and I take a little bit of pride when I read that people talk about how easy it is to rent points, and how it has positively affected their view of the Marriott system.   

I am very happy about this -- and happy that Marriott appears to be leaving this feature in place.  I've made my peace with skimming (which still blows) and glad that the controversy has simmered.

Best to all,

Greg


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## DanCali (Dec 26, 2013)

jimf41 said:


> Some folks are going to say that they can’t reserve any week in their season with the number of points they were given and therefore Marriott skimmed them. To them I say read the first sentence in this paragraph again. Then go reserve your week like you’ve always done and don’t get skimmed.



I'm afraid this misses the entire point.

Skim has nothing to do with reserving a week at my home resort with points. References to home resort point requirements are there for understanding how many points a week should get in order to be able to do "like for like" trades. Then you get 93 cents on the dollar there is no like for like...



SueDonJ said:


> There is altogether too much math in this thread - it's supposed to be school vacation!




I'm pretty sure Marriott do there to do their math diligently... Let's not fault others for doing the same and calling them on hiding this egregious hidden fee (skim).

Sure - figuring it out involves some math. When I did it my jaw dropped like the Genie in Disney's Aladdin!


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## Ron98GT (Dec 27, 2013)

DanCali said:


> I'm afraid this misses the entire point.
> 
> *Skim has nothing to do with reserving a week at my home resort with points.* References to home resort point requirements are there for understanding how many points a week should get in order to be able to do "like for like" trades. Then you get 93 cents on the dollar there is no like for like...
> 
> ...


But it does, if Marriott doesn't give you enough points to book/stay a full week at your home resort during your purchased season/color.  This part of the skim has been discussed in multiple threads, such as:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161415&highlight=skim

I like the math.  It helps me to understand the system and put it perspective.  Like you said, it could be jaw dropping.


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## GaryDouglas (Dec 28, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> ... In 25 years , the vast majority of Legacy weeks will be in the hands of the "evil empire"


 
*When they came up with the DC, my concernes were:*
How long would it take for most resorts to be trust owned > 50%?
Will the owner's associations be effectively under Marriott's control at that point?
If so, will they make changes that the owners association once could protect legacy owners from?
Will Maui Ocean Club management not be all that concerned with the continuing rise in maintenace fees (I think the highest) because they know that the trust portion of this is spread out across all trust owners?

I continue to be concerned, but "What Me Worry"...


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## jtdillian (Dec 28, 2013)

*400k no-skim*

"But I'm your live body because I can't take my Week 24 3BR, redeem it for points, and then book a Week 26. Intelligent people will point out that my week 24 is fixed, and therefore I pay a price (13.6%) for the freedom to switch weeks from fixed week to fixed week, and trade my 7 days for 6 days -- but I can counterpoint that a fixed week owner is the perfect example of skimming"

I was told MVCI has over 400,000 owners (not sure how many are enrolled though!) Let's say that all of them had access to the DC. As I discussed before how many of us would elect our week for DC points and then go back to our home resort in our season but now check in on Tuesday or Wednesday. Looks like GregT would if he could get his beloved week 26 for the same amount of DCpoints he gets for his week 24. If just 1/2 of the 400k owners did this what do you think would happen to the points exchange pool? It would be saturated with owners looking to go to their home resorts. I think the skim is there to avoid this. However my cousin who owns a 7 night Newport Coast 4th of July fixed week can get over 17 week nights in the off season with the points this week can be elected for. I don't think this program was meant to be like for like as it is with Interval but if you have enough points I have seen a ton of availability!


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## Fairwinds (Dec 28, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> But it does, if Marriott doesn't give you enough points to book/stay a full week at your home resort during your purchased season/color.  This part of the skim has been discussed in multiple threads, such as:
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161415&highlight=skim
> 
> I like the math.  It helps me to understand the system and put it perspective.  Like you said, it could be jaw dropping.



I like the math too. By archiving the "perspective" we can decide which way is best for each situation. I don't foresee trading for DC points based on my habits but maybe someday the lure of a faster confirmation will suck me in. In the mean time I'm a happy enrolled owner who save a few bucks on splitting, trading and exchanging for reward points. Hey, after all there is skim or cost to every transaction. Perhaps the biggest one is trading for reward points but I still do it occasionally. You get the biggest bang for your timeshare by reserving and occupying.


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## jimf41 (Dec 28, 2013)

GregT said:


> but I can counterpoint that a fixed week owner is the perfect example of skimming.  No one can dispute that I received 93% on the retail dollar (or 86%) when a fixed week is effectively a season unto itself -- as there are no lower point weeks available to a fixed week owner to average against when trying to understand the logic.
> 
> Greg



Not quite so perfect. I'm a fixed week owner at MFC with week 7. I can trade it even up for fixed week 51, I'd lose about 1300 points on fixed week 52 and I'd make between 800 and 2575 on the rest of the weeks in the year.

As to your second point I don't really understand what you are trying to say. If you want to use your fixed week 24 then just reserve it. If you want fixed week 26 then why didn't you buy week 26? If you really want week 26 then go to II and trade for it. I don't see how you see this as an example of skimming.




DanCali said:


> I'm afraid this misses the entire point.



It doesn't miss the point at all. Unless you think that your point is the only point there is. I'm saying that there are other points of view and I have expressed mine. Some people think that the DC system is a pretty nice enhancement to weeks ownership. You don't and that's fine but yours is not the only point of view.

Marriott's system of assigning points to units is not the fairest or most equitable they could have done IMO. But it does work well of for a lot of owners. I own a 2bdr Plat OS at Ocean Pointe. I use that to get a 2bdrm OS (really an OF if you've ever been there). There is no way those units are equal in my opinion. The fact that I have 200 points left over after I make the trade is silly. But what's done is done. If the system doesn't work for you no one forces you to use it. The only person that can skim you is yourself.


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## curbysplace (Dec 30, 2013)

jimf41 said:


> In a theoretical world skim exists. I understand how some have come to the conclusion that Marriott gives about 6-7%  or so less to the weeks owners in points than they require to reserve. So when GREG T says they are giving you 93 cents on the dollar when you use points he is technically correct. Technically.



Legacy owners that bought third-party resale prior to the 6/20/2010 cross-over date saved thousands and thousands of dollars versus developer prices.  Even with the original $1,995 DC buy-in for multiple resale weeks Legacy owners still are thousands of dollars ahead and have gained all the options available through the DC to boot! In my case that is all very true thanks to TUG and all of you that post on this site.

And make no mistake about it, the skim is not exclusive to Legacy owners.  Trust Point owners are subject to the same skim however it is not so apparent.  It seems to me that Trust Point owners pay much more dearly for it than we Legacy owners because of their initial cost per DC point and in most cases their maintenance fees exceed the relative deeded week fees and they don't get all the options we Legacy owners have.

Do I like the fact of the skim?  Absolutely not.  But like it was said earlier, we should be thrilled and embrace the fact that the Marriott Vacation Club is profitable because it only enhances our owned deeded weeks and ensures MCV maintains the high standards we are accustomed to.  If they aren't successful . . .


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## dadtante (Dec 31, 2013)

Been  considering dropping- received a bill for "2014 PREMIUM DUES" does anyone know what that's all about? $215.00


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## dioxide45 (Dec 31, 2013)

dadtante said:


> Been  considering dropping- received a bill for "2014 PREMIUM DUES" does anyone know what that's all about? $215.00



This bill was actually due on December 10th. Based on the amount, $215, it sounds like you are at least a Premier Owner? With at least 6,500 DC points. This is the annual DC membership fee. The new consolidated fee that covers all other fees within the program; cancellations, II exchange fee, II membership fee, trade for Marriott Reward Points fee, etc.


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