# Now May Be a Good Time to Bail Out of Frequent-Flier Programs



## MULTIZ321 (Mar 2, 2014)

Now May Be a Good Time to Bail Out of Frequent-Flier Programs - by Ron Lieber/ Your Money/ The New York Times.com

The rules are tightening further, with Delta Air Lines moving this week to a system that awards miles based on how much a passenger pays for a ticket.


Richard


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## x3 skier (Mar 2, 2014)

Luckily, I am past the point of needing to earn FF Miles via Butt in Seat flying. I pick up miles via credit card bonuses and use them plus my horde of previously earned BIS miles for First Class or Business Class trips to Europe and South America. 

This type of change was inevitable given the consolidation of airlines as I have noted for some time. I don't begrudge the airlines doing this since they are trying to actually make money instead of operating a money loosing hobby. Just fortunate and thankful it will have minimum personal effect of my future "free" travels. 

Cheers


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## artringwald (Mar 2, 2014)

You can't really call them loyalty programs anymore. Does anyone pick a flight because they want FF on a particular airline? I pick flights based on price and convenience. Of course 80% of the flights out of my home city are Delta, so I usually don't have much choice.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 2, 2014)

artringwald said:


> You can't really call them loyalty programs anymore. Does anyone pick a flight because they want FF on a particular airline? I pick flights based on price and convenience. Of course 80% of the flights out of my home city are Delta, so I usually don't have much choice.


Many business travelers do, myself included.  

The big thing for me is exit row seating.  If I'm in an exit row I can get much more work done.  Since I bill by the hour, I come out money ahead even if I pay a bit more for my ticket.


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## Talent312 (Mar 2, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Since I bill by the hour, I come out money ahead even if I pay a bit more for my ticket.



Do you also pick longer duration flights for more billable hours?


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## dioxide45 (Mar 2, 2014)

I always found it odd that airlines were still to this day awarding miles based on distance flown instead of price paid for the ticket. Hotels base the points they award based on dollars spent and it seems that airlines were lightyears behind. It was only a matter of time.

Leisure travelers seem to always have a hard time accumulating miles unless they have another way, such as the FF program credit card. I will never hit any elite level on an airline since I don't travel for business. I only hit Gold and/or Platinum with Marriott because of timeshare stays.


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## Rent_Share (Mar 2, 2014)

When I was a road warrior earning BIS miles @ 2.5 x distance + other nonsense bonuses as a result of my cumulative loyalty, I was livid when Continental took away my priority to a first class seat on a $ 232 R/T fare to Houston and gave those seats first to less loyal customers who paid more.

Most Flyertalk regulars will advocate using your miles, not hoarding, since the airlines are constantly devaluing them or making less flights available to use them reducing their utility.


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## linsj (Mar 2, 2014)

artringwald said:


> You can't really call them loyalty programs anymore. Does anyone pick a flight because they want FF on a particular airline? I pick flights based on price and convenience. Of course 80% of the flights out of my home city are Delta, so I usually don't have much choice.



I do. Between business and leisure trips and a credit card that gives me status miles for buying tickets on ual.com, I can maintain gold status on United annually. I don't care so much about accumulating miles. I like being able to book exit row seats for my long legs and getting free first-class upgrades about 90% of the time, including to and from Hawaii 100% of the time.


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## bogey21 (Mar 2, 2014)

I bailed years ago.  At one time I had 3 million miles on Delta; almost 2 million on American; and who knows how many free trips on Southwest. I used or otherwise disposed of them all when they had real value and have never looked back.

George


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## Ken555 (Mar 2, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I always found it odd that airlines were still to this day awarding miles based on distance flown instead of price paid for the ticket. Hotels base the points they award based on dollars spent and it seems that airlines were lightyears behind. It was only a matter of time.




When you control the redemption value of the currency, it doesn't matter at all what basis you use for acquiring it since you can adjust how much they're worth. Distance made, and makes, sense to many since it's an easily understood amount which "rewards" those who spend longer on a plane. But, there are alternatives that some carriers use such as price paid for the ticket. I think the easiest understood program was the old Southwest where you simply earned a single point for each flight.

FWIW, this is exactly why some of those credit card vanity cards which award "double points" all the time are also meaningless, since if it's always double points (and double the cost for redemption, or thereabouts) then it doesn't really matter that it's double after all. 

When it comes to award programs I think the car rental market has done it right, for them - not us. For many rentals, if not all these days, if you want airline miles for your rental you've got to pay an extra fee. Miles aren't always used as the enticement to use one vendor over another the way they originally were, though you could say you have more control over your total travel costs now at the loss of points. Naturally, the benefit of such customers to the airline would gradually erode over time since it's all about price now.


Sent from my iPad


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## lizap (Mar 2, 2014)

One of the negative consequences of so much airline consolidation, along with higher prices.  Even with recent changes, Southwest has the best FF program in the industry, this coming from a 2mil. mile former FF with American.


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## Ken555 (Mar 2, 2014)

lizap said:


> One of the negative consequences of so much airline consolidation, along with higher prices.  Even with recent changes, Southwest has the best FF program in the industry, this coming from a 2mil. mile former FF with American.




Yeah? How many southwest points do you need to fly business to Europe? And which carrier do they partner with that offers those routes?


Sent from my iPad


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## Kauai Kid (Mar 2, 2014)

I bailed out last year when I never could get a FF trip even 330 days in advance.

I'm now solidly into cash back credit card and that works for all airlines.
5% gasoline, 3% groceries, 1% everything else.

I do use my existing FF miles for car rentals so they still have some value.

Sterling


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## lizap (Mar 2, 2014)

Ken, you're right if you want European travel, that is non-existent on SW.  For us, we have made so many tripe to Europe over the years, we are not interested in doing a lot of that anymore.  So for us and probably many others, it us a good fit. 



Ken555 said:


> Yeah? How many southwest points do you need to fly business to Europe? And which carrier do they partner with that offers those routes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad


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## lizap (Mar 2, 2014)

A major reason for leaving AA for Southwest.  Even though I had tons of miles on AA, often could not get a seat, even 330 days out. On SW, if there is an empty seat, it's yours, when booking award seats.



Kauai Kid said:


> I bailed out last year when I never could get a FF trip even 330 days in advance.
> 
> I'm now solidly into cash back credit card and that works for all airlines.
> 5% gasoline, 3% groceries, 1% everything else.
> ...


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## Ken555 (Mar 2, 2014)

Kauai Kid said:


> I bailed out last year when I never could get a FF trip even 330 days in advance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's likely you would be better off with a 2% cash back card on all purchases.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Mar 2, 2014)

lizap said:


> Ken, you're right if you want European travel, that is non-existent on SW.  For us, we have made so many tripe to Europe over the years, we are not interested in doing a lot of that anymore.  So for us and probably many others, it us a good fit.




Yes, and this shows how one program doesn't offer everything. Of course with Southwest it's not just European travel...it's travel anywhere outside the US. 

If you only want domestic travel there are lots of options. But for flexibility a program that at least cooperates with partners is more appropriate. This is one reason people seem to like hotel programs such as Starwood, since it's easy to move points to many different airlines or use it for hotel stays, and is why I never bothered to collect Southwest points (and because over the last 10 years domestic travel in coach has been relatively inexpensive). 

I still think the most value out of miles programs is for business class overseas and flights to Hawaii. For domestic awards I think the British Air credit card and miles program is the best option, since it offers 1.25 points for every dollar spent and partners with AA for domestic flights at very affordable rates (I only pay 25,000 BA points roundtrip for a flight to Hawaii on AA, and I can book online). 


Sent from my iPad


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## x3 skier (Mar 2, 2014)

Been to Europe every year for the past 20 or so in either First or Business with DL or AA at the lowest or near lowest miles and see no reason why I can't continue to do so.

Takes more work than it used to but have not been shut out yet. I sometimes have to fly to AMS, for example when I really want to go to London but that's not a big deal since I have a stack of Avios from a credit card sign up bonus for the short haul connection. I do tend to travel in the off season but sights and locations are the same year round. 

If the whole FF thing collapses tomorrow, I have more than got good use for millions and millions of miles over the years in the aluminum tubes. 

Cheers


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## elaine (Mar 3, 2014)

we fly our family EOY for 60K RT in coach to Europe. We get most miles from CC purchases. Last time it got harder and we had to be a lot more flexible--we had to drive to NYC (vs DC) to get flight, and could only get FF seats home from LHR, so had to train from Paris ($80PP) and also pay $100PP more in air taxes. But, we still got over and back.


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## Ken555 (Mar 3, 2014)

elaine said:


> we fly our family EOY for 60K RT in coach to Europe. We get most miles from CC purchases. Last time it got harder and we had to be a lot more flexible--we had to drive to NYC (vs DC) to get flight, and could only get FF seats home from LHR, so had to train from Paris ($80PP) and also pay $100PP more in air taxes. But, we still got over and back.




I think this is a great example where the mileage program may not be the best option. I don't know the DC to Paris coach price, but I would assume it's less than $800 per person...would that be correct? If so, then I suggest you run the numbers and see if a 2% cash back credit card might not be better for your next trip, and just plan on paying cash for your flight. It would certainly open up route options and make reservations easier. And, if $800 or so is the right price (and I wouldn't be surprised to find it for less now and then, since it's $800 or less from LA to Europe) then you'd likely come out ahead. After all, if you received 1 mile per $ spent via cc, then with a 2% cash back card you'd earn $1200 per $60,000, etc. FWIW, this is an example of why coach seats to Europe aren't the best deal for award redemptions, though some airlines offer less expensive award travel during non prime months which would change the calc slightly.


Sent from my iPad


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## elaine (Mar 3, 2014)

summer season is around $1500. We usually travel late July/early Aug.


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## LisaRex (Mar 3, 2014)

I still hold the Delta AMEX platinum card because it gives me free checked bags + a $99 companion ticket.  As far as using the card for purchases, it sits in the drawer so I can accumulate points on more lucrative programs.


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## Ken555 (Mar 3, 2014)

elaine said:


> summer season is around $1500. We usually travel late July/early Aug.




Ok, yet with 60k in cc spend you'd get $1200 in rebate that you could apply to any ticket with any carrier and have a lot more flexibility than dealing with prime time for award seats. Seems almost a wash to me as for cost, especially if you don't have to change cities and pay for travel to get to the departure city, extra departure tax, etc. Add in the suggested companion fare or two and you might even get ahead.


Sent from my iPad


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## DebBrown (Mar 3, 2014)

artringwald said:


> You can't really call them loyalty programs anymore. Does anyone pick a flight because they want FF on a particular airline? I pick flights based on price and convenience. Of course 80% of the flights out of my home city are Delta, so I usually don't have much choice.



Um, yeah, I try to fly AA for the miles.  We also have status on AA so I can get good seats and upgrades.  I really do hate flying economy.

Having said that, I did dispose of one million AA miles a few months ago booking business class tickets to Spain for next summer for 10 family members.  No regrets!

Deb


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## Hoc (Mar 4, 2014)

When I can get Executive Platinum for about $1,500 to $2,000 a year, I will fly the miles to do that, and I pick my flights on American or affiliates for that reason.  However, in 2013 I couldn't get it for that price, so I barely flew.  If FF mileage programs lose the ability to get a bargain on top-tier status, I will no longer shoot for top-tier status.  However, I still have lifetime Platinum status based on my prior flying, so it does stand to reason that, if status becomes more expensive, then benefits for status are likely to be better.  That means that my lifetime Platinum status might just get me most of the benefits I want, anyway.


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## x3 skier (Mar 4, 2014)

Hoc said:


> When I can get Executive Platinum for about $1,500 to $2,000 a year, I will fly the miles to do that, and I pick my flights on American or affiliates for that reason.



Be interested in how you get 100000 miles or Elite Qualifying Points or 60 segments required for Executive Platinum for $2000. Exec Plat doesn't have a publicly available challenge opportunity so I assume you have to actually fly the miles.

Cheers


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## short (Mar 4, 2014)

*Delta change cannot come soon enough.*

My DH and I are just the travelers Delta wants to have.  My husband will not fly coach anymore so we buy first or business.  Usually discounted first or business but still higher price than coach.

I used the Delta calculator for an upcoming trip from LAX to GVA(Geneva) business class ticket for $6k.  Old system 21k ff miles new way 54k plat.

So here is my math.

Business trip tax deductable.  IRS and FTB(Franchise Tax Board) pays 50 percent.

Skybonus premium ticket nonhub travel 30 points per dollar at 1 cent per point equals 30 percent discount.

Skymiles earned(plat) at 9 miles per dollar at 1 cent per mile(and I think this is conservative).  I don't use miles unless I can get 2 cents per mile value.  This equals 9 percent discount.  If I used 2 cents it would be 18 percent discount.

So spending an extra 1k on the above ticket to get better routes or times is a reasonable possibility.

So you pay cash for business and miles for personnel.

Whats not to like about this picture.

Short


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## Hoc (Mar 4, 2014)

x3 skier said:


> Be interested in how you get 100000 miles or Elite Qualifying Points or 60 segments required for Executive Platinum for $2000. Exec Plat doesn't have a publicly available challenge opportunity so I assume you have to actually fly the miles.
> 
> Cheers



I do actually fly the miles.  When the price on a fare drops to 2 cents per qualifying mile or less, I fly them.


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## x3 skier (Mar 4, 2014)

Hoc said:


> I do actually fly the miles.  When the price on a fare drops to 2 cents per qualifying mile or less, I fly them.



100000 miles for less than $2000 is an amazing price. 

Transcontinental fares are around $300-$400 for ~ 6000 miles, that's 30000+ miles for ~$2000. OTOH, Transpacific eg LAX - MEL for ~$1500 nets ~15000 so that's about 30000 miles for $3000. I did see a fare from JFK - JNB For ~$1000 netting ~18000 so that would get me ~36000 for ~$2000 but that only a third of the way.

I will keep my eye peeled for something that nets 100000 for $2000 which I have never seen, even on thanksgiving day sales. The best mileage runs I have seen lately on Flyertak are around 3.5¢ per mile. 

Cheers


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## Hoc (Mar 4, 2014)

x3 skier said:


> 100000 miles for less than $2000 is an amazing price.
> 
> Transcontinental fares are around $300-$400 for ~ 6000 miles, that's 30000+ miles for ~$2000. OTOH, Transpacific eg LAX - MEL for ~$1500 nets ~15000 so that's about 30000 miles for $3000. I did see a fare from JFK - JNB For ~$1000 netting ~18000 so that would get me ~36000 for ~$2000 but that only a third of the way.



Right now.  That is why I did not fly this past year.  But for the 10-15 years prior to that, I could always find something within my price range, and was Executive Platinum every year during that time.  There was a point where they had double miles specials, and round trip from LAX to Madrid was about $600.  So, for $600, I could get 24,000 qualifying miles.  So, even though it was slightly above my target, I flew once to Madrid over a weekend, and once to Barcelona over another weekend.  In addition, there was a year when LAX to New York was $153, again with double miles.  So, it was 1.5 cents per qualifying mile.  I flew about 7 trips to New York where I would get in on Friday night, paint the town, then fly out on Saturday morning and sleep on the plane all the way home.

There have been all kinds of deals like that in the past.


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## LannyPC (Mar 5, 2014)

LisaRex said:


> I still hold the Delta AMEX platinum card because it gives me free checked bags + a $99 companion ticket.  As far as using the card for purchases, it sits in the drawer so I can accumulate points on more lucrative programs.



Is there an annual fee on that card?  I find that most credit cards with frequent-flyer rewards carry an annual fee.


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## LannyPC (Mar 5, 2014)

Kauai Kid said:


> I bailed out last year when I never could get a FF trip even 330 days in advance.
> 
> I'm now solidly into cash back credit card and that works for all airlines.
> 5% gasoline, 3% groceries, 1% everything else.



That's why I gave up on my Aeroplan (Air Canada's ff program) credit card years ago in favour of a cash back card.

With Aeroplan, it seems like, whenever you want to redeem your points for a flight, there are no seats available.  But when you book that same flight through its website or travel agents (ie., Travelocity, Expedia, etc.) paying full price, it's amazing how quickly seats become available.:annoyed:


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## Carolinian (Mar 5, 2014)

lizap said:


> One of the negative consequences of so much airline consolidation, along with higher prices.  Even with recent changes, Southwest has the best FF program in the industry, this coming from a 2mil. mile former FF with American.



You have hit the nail on the head.  Mergers mean higher prices and devalued loyalty programs.  We saw if with Air France and KLM, Delta and NWA, United and Continental, and soon with American and USScare.  With the industry becoming an oligopoly, they are able to get away with it, since there is less competition.

I am looking forward to RyanAir setting up a US operation, not because I like the way they operate (although I like their prices), but because they will put some real competition back into the US air travel marketplace.  RyanAir recently announced they were going to start acquiring long haul jets to start up Trans-Atlantic service and that their fares would start at 10 euros one way.


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## x3 skier (Mar 5, 2014)

Carolinian said:


> RyanAir recently announced they were going to start acquiring long haul jets to start up Trans-Atlantic service and that their fares would start at 10 euros one way.



Sir Freddy Laker rises again. 

Cheers


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## SMHarman (Mar 5, 2014)

Carolinian said:


> You have hit the nail on the head.  Mergers mean higher prices and devalued loyalty programs.  We saw if with Air France and KLM, Delta and NWA, United and Continental, and soon with American and USScare.  With the industry becoming an oligopoly, they are able to get away with it, since there is less competition.
> 
> I am looking forward to RyanAir setting up a US operation, not because I like the way they operate (although I like their prices), but because they will put some real competition back into the US air travel marketplace.  RyanAir recently announced they were going to start acquiring long haul jets to start up Trans-Atlantic service and that their fares would start at 10 euros one way.



I just saw this news
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...ould-the-experience-be-worth-the-savings.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/28/ryanair-transatlantic-flights_n_4874349.html

I fear this is not as great a deal as it looks on paper.  I'm sure 'Sir Freddy' O'Leary can offer those prices along with a GBP199 fuel surcharge, UK departure taxes of another GBP83, add in the existing RyanAir fees for Baggage and boarding passes and payment by credit card (or debit card or anything really) and soon the business model will find a way to claw back the difference between the GBP10 RyanAir seat and the GBP150 BA seat.

My guess
BA
Ticket Price 150 EW
Fuel Surcharge 150 EW
APD 83 OUT 
Taxes 30 RTN
Total Fare including 1 checked bag/Meal/IFE/Drinks/Free Booze GBP713

RYANAIR
Ticket Price 10 EW
Fuel Surcharge 150 EW
Credit Card Fee 40
Baggage 50 EW
Boarding Pass 10 EW
APD 83 OUT
Taxes 30 RTN
Total Fare including 1 checked bag GBP593

Additional Costs 
Meal/IFE/Soft Drinks/Coffee/Booze


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## LisaRex (Mar 6, 2014)

LannyPC said:


> Is there an annual fee on that card?  I find that most credit cards with frequent-flyer rewards carry an annual fee.



Yes.  I think I pay ~$100 per year for the platinum card.  I pay it because, without fail, I get more than $100 worth of perks per year.  Just one flight pays for the 2 pieces of luggage my husband and I will take.  The companion pass usually saves a few hundred bucks, too.


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