# Puzzled by Hilton Offering HGVC Units on Hilton.com



## CalGalTraveler (Jun 4, 2015)

I noticed that many HGVC units are now being offered to public to reserve on Hilton.com.  Some of these are during club and home week windows and are not last minute rooms.  For example we can book several HGVC properties in Hawaii for this Thanksgiving and Spring Break 2016 (!) using Hilton.com (including the Lagoon Tower which already has 90%+ occupancy and maintenance issues from overuse.)

I am puzzled as to how Hilton is able to offer units to the public when HGVC club members have not made a home or club reservation yet - how can they do this when home week is still open and spring 2016 club window is not open yet? 


When booked by the public in advance, doesn't this prevent club members from making a reservation in the club and open-season windows thus reducing available inventory that should be offered to club owners first?  

Has Hilton made any official statements to owners as to how much of the inventory they make available to the public?  

How does Hilton prioritize these reservations? Is it first come first serve after the home week period? (which doesn't sound fair since they sell the benefit of flexible points which could be construed as "bait and switch") i.e. if they can make money from the public by selling the room in advance, why would they give club members any priority at all?  Since this is all incremental revenue to Hilton, what is to stop them from pricing such that they sell at rock bottom prices to the public rather than making the rooms available to the owners who do not provide incremental revenue.


If they claim these are unsold units, what kind of transparency and independent audits are performed to ensure they are not selling owner units to the public?

Does this incremental revenue go back to the owners (even if collectively HGVC giving a % revenue share to offset maintenance for all owners) since we own the units and pay maintenance for units that are being sold to the public  and the public is placing more wear and tear on the units, thus increasing our maintenance cost.

Would love your perspective on what is going on as something does not add up here.  It seems like Hilton is double dipping with our deeds by getting all the revenue, not offsetting maintenance cost (but putting more wear and tear on the units) and reselling our property to the public prior to giving us a chance to book during home, club and open-season.  

I hope there is a plausible explanation as this smells fishy.


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## brp (Jun 4, 2015)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I noticed that many HGVC units are now being offered to public to reserve on Hilton.com.  Some of these are during club and home week windows and are not last minute rooms.  For example we can book several HGVC properties in Hawaii for this Thanksgiving and Spring Break 2016 (!) using Hilton.com (including the Lagoon Tower which already has 90%+ occupancy and maintenance issues from overuse.)
> 
> I am puzzled as to how Hilton is able to offer units to the public when HGVC club members have not made a home or club reservation yet - how can they do this when home week is still open and spring 2016 club window is not open yet?



Well, I don't know if HGVC does things that same way as DVC, but I would suspect that they do.

In the Disney case, not all of the points are owned by people. Some are owned by Disney. These are rented out through their Central Reservations Office (CRO). Because these are not in the pool of points owned by owners, they are not available to DVC owners via their points ownership.

I've seen the same complaints periodically on a Disney board I read, and this is the explanation there.

Cheers.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Jun 4, 2015)

i don't think this is new.  They have had some HGVC units available on Hilton.com for a long time.  

In fact i usually make not of how much a given room costs on Hilton.com when i book my reservations via HGVC.  

I use that to establish some level of comparable value for my usage.  I would hope brb is correct, and the units for rent via Hilton.com are from the weeks/ units are weeks still owned by the developer.


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## presley (Jun 4, 2015)

1Kflyerguy said:


> i don't think this is new.  They have had some HGVC units available on Hilton.com for a long time.



This is correct. I booked Lagoon Tower for a summer week that way before I owned any timeshares.  So, several years ago. 

I have always assumed they've inventory set aside for renting to the public at all the resorts.


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## Talent312 (Jun 4, 2015)

HGVC members also release inventory to Hilton Hotels when they book Hotels using HGVC points (thru HGVC) or convert HGVC-points to HHonors. Its part of the deal between HGVC and the Hotel Division giving HGVC members access to HHonors & hotel rooms. _Not that any of us are so foolish as to waste our points in that way._

But who and how they decide what inventory they let the Hotels use is apparently not for us mere mortals to know.
.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 4, 2015)

brp said:


> Well, I don't know if HGVC does things that same way as DVC, but I would suspect that they do.
> 
> In the Disney case, not all of the points are owned by people. Some are owned by Disney. These are rented out through their Central Reservations Office (CRO). Because these are not in the pool of points owned by owners, they are not available to DVC owners via their points ownership.
> 
> ...



I hope you are right.  If it is true there needs to be more transparency with owners as to how many points are allocated for public sale, how much the generated revenues contribute to offset maintenance and capital costs for public use of the property, and how owner vs. public reservation decisions are made.

Hilton can continue to be opaque about how they operate, however remaining opaque opens them up to a savvy legal firm or ambitious attorney general who will file a class action suit because consumers paying maintenance fees and owning the building have a right to know this aspect of the building costs and how public usage and revenue generation affects maintenance expenses, capital costs, and their ability to use the building.


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## brp (Jun 5, 2015)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hilton can continue to be opaque about how they operate, however remaining opaque opens them up to a savvy legal firm or ambitious attorney general who will file a class action suit because consumers paying maintenance fees and owning the building have a right to know this aspect of the building costs and how public usage and revenue generation affects maintenance expenses, capital costs, and their ability to use the building.



I'm guessing it's disclosed in the annual reports that owners can get (somehow...I have no idea how since I don't care) and is all listed there. Also, given the size of Hilton, I'm quite sure it's all on the up-and-up and not something to attract the attention of the legal community. Seems really unlikely that they're "pulling something" here. In the unlikely case that they were, someone would already have been investigating.

Cheers.


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## Jason245 (Jun 5, 2015)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I noticed that many HGVC units are now being offered to public to reserve on Hilton.com.  Some of these are during club and home week windows and are not last minute rooms.  For example we can book several HGVC properties in Hawaii for this Thanksgiving and Spring Break 2016 (!) using Hilton.com (including the Lagoon Tower which already has 90%+ occupancy and maintenance issues from overuse.)
> 
> I am puzzled as to how Hilton is able to offer units to the public when HGVC club members have not made a home or club reservation yet - how can they do this when home week is still open and spring 2016 club window is not open yet?
> 
> ...



Hilton ownes at every resort, has a big bank of points and allows owners to borrow next year points (putting those nights back into HGVC pocket). 

They keep all the cash that they get from rentals and give nothing to the owners or HOA (except MF). 

I suggest you look at the annual report for these resorts (assuming you are an owner there), and see exactly how much they own at the resort (it is disclosed).


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## 1Kflyerguy (Jun 5, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Hilton ownes at every resort, has a big bank of points and allows owners to borrow next year points (putting those nights back into HGVC pocket).
> 
> They keep all the cash that they get from rentals and give nothing to the owners or HOA (except MF).
> 
> I suggest you look at the annual report for these resorts (assuming you are an owner there), and see exactly how much they own at the resort (it is disclosed).



And i am sure they purchase guest certificates and only rent the home weeks they own as hotel rooms....

All kidding aside, there are plenty things HGVC does that bother me, but this is not one of them...


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## lizap (Jun 5, 2015)

Some of the rates are quite good.  Marriott does it too..


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## SMHarman (Jun 5, 2015)

And Starwood


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## bogey21 (Jun 5, 2015)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope you are right.  If it is true there needs to be more *transparency* with owners as to how many points are allocated for public sale, how much the generated revenues contribute to offset maintenance and capital costs for public use of the property, and how owner vs. public reservation decisions are made.
> 
> Hilton can continue to be *opaque* about how they operate, however remaining *opaque* opens them up to a savvy legal firm or ambitious attorney general who will file a *class action suit* because consumers paying maintenance fees and owning the building have a right to know this aspect of the building costs and how public usage and revenue generation affects maintenance expenses, capital costs, and their ability to use the building.



I suspect everything Hilton is doing is above board.  Words like "transparency", "opaque" and  "class action suit" sound good but I suspect are meaningless overkill.

George


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## SmithOp (Jun 6, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> I suspect everything Hilton is doing is above board.  Words like "transparency", "opaque" and  "class action suit" sound good but I suspect are meaningless overkill.
> 
> 
> 
> George




Let me try to explain it with an example George. 

I own a 2br OF at Lagoon Tower HHV, 7000 points.  I pay about $200 a night in maint fees. If I trade it for HH points I may get 4 nights in a Hampton Inn.  HGVC meanwhile rents out my unit for $400 a night, where does the extra $1400 go?  Minus the cost to Hilton for cleaning, etc of the Hampton room I stayed in - Hilton does not lose revenue on the hotel because I can only book nights where they have vacant rooms. The Lagoon Tower runs darn near 100% occupancy, compare that to Hamptons at less than 70%.

Now what if I decide to go to Orlando - Sea World, nightly rates there are much less. Do you think HGVC releases my week for Joe Bloe who owns in Vegas to book, or do they continue to rent it for $400 a night and free up a week in one of their many unsold units at Elara in Vegas where rents are cheaper?


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## jestme (Jun 6, 2015)

Just to be a bit clearer, there is no cost to Hilton for cleaning your Lagoon room, which rents for way more than $400 / night for an oceanfront 2BR on Hilton.com. MF's pay for all cleaning, and the HOA does not get any money back from Hilton for the rental of the unit to cover any costs (cleaning, garbage, depreciation, etc. The same goes for "Open Season" rentals.
On the other side of the coin, where does Hilton get the room availability for units they have pre-sold, and haven't built yet, like the new tower in Honolulu? Not only do those owners trade nothing back in, but they also get bonus points to use somewhere, and as their ownership place doesn't exist yet, they have no MF's either.. 


SmithOp said:


> Let me try to explain it with an example George.
> 
> I own a 2br OF at Lagoon Tower HHV, 7000 points.  I pay about $200 a night in maint fees. If I trade it for HH points I may get 4 nights in a Hampton Inn.  HGVC meanwhile rents out my unit for $400 a night, where does the extra $1400 go?  Minus the cost to Hilton for cleaning, etc of the Hampton room I stayed in - Hilton does not lose revenue on the hotel because I can only book nights where they have vacant rooms. The Lagoon Tower runs darn near 100% occupancy, compare that to Hamptons at less than 70%.
> 
> ...


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## bogey21 (Jun 6, 2015)

The issue isn't does Hilton make out like a bandit at the expense of Owners?  No question they do.  The issue is whether they have the legal ability to do what they are doing.  I think they probably do, thus I don't agree with the likelihood of a successful class action lawsuit.

George


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## bnoble (Jun 6, 2015)

Every major hotel-affiliated system does this.  There are certainly legal ways in which it can happen---by direct ownership, monetizing "in-system" trades, rental of breakage inventory, etc. You should know what the rights of the system are, preferably before you buy.  

There is also the possibility that the playing field is tilted in the system's direction when choosing what to use to rent out. You are never going to find out exactly how they make these decisions. You can either decide to accept that, or you can sell. There probably isn't any other sensible path. The same is true about how systems decide what and when to deposit to exchanges.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 6, 2015)

bnoble said:


> There is also the possibility that the playing field is tilted in the system's direction when choosing what to use to rent out. You are never going to find out exactly how they make these decisions. You can either decide to accept that, or you can sell. There probably isn't any other sensible path. The same is true about how systems decide what and when to deposit to exchanges.



Good point. This is like playing the house, despite the best of intentions, the pursuit of profits will drive decisions over time.  So like a casino, I enjoy the experience but will set a limit as to how much money I will be willing to play with. 

Sad to hear about Lagoon owners who diligently pay annual fees experiencing units in poor repair when they visit and the excuse is that high occupancy is preventing maintenance to occur.

This is exacerbated by selling units to the public at high profits placing further occupancy/wear and tear strain on the units and preventing reservations for HGVC owners of Lagoon and other properties who paid upfront fees for the right to club and open season rates.


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## MikeinSoCal (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm not sure how Sunrise Lodge works, but I tried to book a HGVC stay one time and nothing was available.  However, on Hilton.com there were rooms available for the exact same nights.

Also, when we were at Kingsland a month ago, I was surprised how many people I met that were staying there as non-HGVC owners.


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## SmithOp (Jun 9, 2015)

MikeinSoCal said:


> Also, when we were at Kingsland a month ago, I was surprised how many people I met that were staying there as non-HGVC owners.




Fresh meat for the sales staff, HGVC dumps a lot of Kings Land into RCI every year.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 9, 2015)

MikeinSoCal said:


> I'm not sure how Sunrise Lodge works, but I tried to book a HGVC stay one time and nothing was available.  However, on Hilton.com there were rooms available for the exact same nights.



It seems that HGVC does not gain access to the best rooms and seasons at affiliated resorts.  Tried to get into Whistler during the holidays and was told that these are blackout dates and unavailable to HGVC. 

Stayed at Carlsbad Seapoint in a unit with no view even though premium rooms with ocean views and balconies were vacant.  When I requested to change units, I was told that the room in which I was staying was one of the units contracted by HGVC i.e. implying that HGVC does not have full access to the resort.

They are marketing these resorts on their website as part of the membership giving the impression that you can use them anytime and with the best units but it appears that they are providing limited access during shoulder and off seasons.


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## Jason245 (Jun 9, 2015)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It seems that HGVC does not gain access to the best rooms and seasons at affiliated resorts.  Tried to get into Whistler during the holidays and was told that these are blackout dates and unavailable to HGVC.
> 
> Stayed at Carlsbad Seapoint in a unit with no view even though premium rooms with ocean views and balconies were vacant.  When I requested to change units, I was told that the room in which I was staying was one of the units contracted by HGVC i.e. implying that HGVC does not have full access to the resort.
> 
> They are marketing these resorts on their website as part of the membership giving the impression that you can use them anytime and with the best units but it appears that they are providing limited access during shoulder and off seasons.


Access is limited to units deposited by owners who elect to join hgvc.  They disclose availability in their paperwork. ..

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## presley (Jun 10, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Access is limited to units deposited by owners who elect to join hgvc.  They disclose availability in their paperwork. ..



Seapointe doesn't have fixed units. When owners deposit/convert their weeks, they are floating units and can be on any floor. Seapointe may choose to only put exchangers on the first floor, but if there are vacancies on other floors, chances are pretty high that some of for the exact same room category. Since I own there, they will always put me in any room I request when available. Exchangers don't get that choice.


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## Jason245 (Jun 10, 2015)

presley said:


> Seapointe doesn't have fixed units. When owners deposit/convert their weeks, they are floating units and can be on any floor. Seapointe may choose to only put exchangers on the first floor, but if there are vacancies on other floors, chances are pretty high that some of for the exact same room category. Since I own there, they will always put me in any room I request when available. Exchangers don't get that choice.



Hense the old advise of buying where you want to go if you want to go there regularly.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 11, 2015)

presley said:


> Seapointe doesn't have fixed units. When owners deposit/convert their weeks, they are floating units and can be on any floor. Seapointe may choose to only put exchangers on the first floor, but if there are vacancies on other floors, chances are pretty high that some of for the exact same room category. Since I own there, they will always put me in any room I request when available. Exchangers don't get that choice.



This makes sense.  Thanks.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 12, 2015)

*Hilton.com versus Open Season*



CalGalTraveler said:


> I noticed that many HGVC units are now being offered to public to reserve on Hilton.com.  Some of these are during club and home week windows and are not last minute rooms.  For example we can book several HGVC properties in Hawaii for this Thanksgiving and Spring Break 2016 (!) using Hilton.com (including the Lagoon Tower which already has 90%+ occupancy and maintenance issues from overuse.)
> 
> I am puzzled as to how Hilton is able to offer units to the public when HGVC club members have not made a home or club reservation yet - how can they do this when home week is still open and spring 2016 club window is not open yet?
> 
> ...



If the inventory that Hilton is advertising on Hilton.com is coming from unsold or foreclosed units, or points that are exchanged for Hotel stays or Partner Perks I have no problem with it.  That inventory is Hilton's to do with as they see fit.  Member don't have rights to the inventory or have given up their rights tto the inventory.  However, as I have stated before, if the inventory is coming from units that were available but not reserved during the Club Reservation Period it should then be available to owners at the existing Open Season Rates before the recents open season range fiasco.  

As we get into the fall the Open Season Rates issue will most probably come up again and I hope TUG members are ready to express their displeasure if Hilton starts to raise the Open Season Rates as they did last winter.


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