# Timeshares are dead - Marriott is now a Destination Club!



## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

On June 21, 2010 Marriott left timeshares in the dust and brought us the world's largest Destination Club (DC).

While you ponder what your final decision is as to stay Legacy or Enroll I'd like to present the concept that Marriott is done with timeshares - they don't want to do that anymore.

Marriott is now the world's largest DC and that's a totally different way to go on vacation.

Marriott's new DC is all about the destination - from the moment you step onto that airline - get in your rental car - check into your villa - do excursions - eat at restaurants - do mini-excursions from your villa - to returning home - Marriott is involved the WHOLE way.

So if you guys get stuck on skimming, and secret plans to screw you, the rest of us have joined Marriott in their new DC venture.

Ma and Pa walking into the Marriott sales gallery will never hear the words "timeshare", or "week", they will hear about destinations and how Marriott can now handle everything for them - MRPs for airline tickets and rental cars and hotels, Vacation Points for villas and cruises, you name it and the DC will be there for them.

Anyway that's my interpretation of what Marriott is now - a Destination Club to go along with their Ritz Carlton Destination Club making them the largest in the world.

Simply take your cost to buy your weeks plus the enrollment fee and come up with a cost per Point.  Marriott charges $10 ($9.40 - $9.20 in temp promos) and a MF of 40 cents.

In the case of our Gold Summit Watch we are getting $21,500 worth of DC power for $7,000 cost or about 1/3.  Our MF is 47 cents versus 40 cents.

All in all, I can't wait to keep our deeded week and exploit Marriott's new Destination Club.  There is a reason "Destinations" is in their new title.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 4, 2010)

*Apparently Marriott is unaware of this...*

Went to a sales pitch last week and they are still calling it a time-share!

tlwmkw


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> Went to a sales pitch last week and they are still calling it a time-share!
> 
> tlwmkw



I'm sure a timeshare owner will be talked to in terms of timeshares - trying to explain their new program requires about 5 hours of training and they don't want to do that.


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## Darlene (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm glad it's a good deal for you, and you will be able to take advantage of it. What it does require is that people sign up, and deposit their weeks for it to work.  I can see why you would want everyone to join. Like you said though, it's not for everybody.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

Darlene said:


> I'm glad it's a good deal for you, and you will be able to take advantage of it. What it does require is that people sign up, and deposit their weeks for it to work.  I can see why you would want everyone to join. Like you said though, it's not for everybody.



Marriott sounds like it only expects 25% (can't remember the actual number but its low) to join their new Destination Club.

I'm not trying to convert anyone just that a new slant on what Marriott is doing might help.

Marriott no longer needs to build 200 - 600+ villa resorts in order to fuel their timeshare sales - with a Master Trust Point system they can buy 10 villas here, a house there, and when you check in there won't be a huge, tacky sign, saying Marriott - you could be in a residential area close to the slopes, or on the beach or whatever Marriott want's.

Marriott could this week start to buy existing villas and have them upgraded and incorporated in a short period of time.

This is exactly what WorldMark does - they will go in and buy parts of a resort and place them into their master trust and sell Points.


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## WelcomeHome (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> This is exactly what WorldMark does



Everyone's worst nightmare - comparing Marriott to WorldMark - We're dead!


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

To me, the biggest problem what the new program is you CAN"T switch after 20 years and pitch 50 destinations. You will never get into


1. Either Park City ski locations
2. Timber Lodge 
3. Aruba Platinum, either location 
4. Kauai
5. St Thomas
6. Ocean Point ( you do have Oceana )
7. Vail
8. Newport Coast 
10. Wiliamsburg 
11. Spain
12. Boston
13. Most Orlando resorts
14. Beachplace
15. Atlantic City ( ok, who cares  )
16. Myrtle Beach 
17. St Kitts
18. ANY Hilton Head resort 

Am I leaving out any ? thats about 1/2 thier resorts 
Will MVCI tell people this ? hell no.... 
buy the dream baby  











PerryM said:


> Marriott sounds like it only expects 25% (can't remember the actual number but its low) to join their new Destination Club.
> 
> I'm not trying to convert anyone just that a new slant on what Marriott is doing might help.
> 
> ...


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> To me, the biggest problem what the new program is you CAN"T switch after 20 years and pitch 50 destinations. You will never get into
> 
> 
> 1. Either Park City ski locations
> ...



So, this view of the world suggests to me that you dont think marriott will be playing games with inventory allocation to favor points over weeks?


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## cruisin (Jul 4, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> Everyone's worst nightmare - comparing Marriott to WorldMark - We're dead!




Its a perfect comparison, Marriott does not need to build nice resorts, they just need to create points, the perfect combination  for Mariott.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

WelcomeHome said:


> Everyone's worst nightmare - comparing Marriott to WorldMark - We're dead!



We own many points in WM and I've not stayed at a WM for 4+ years now I think.

WM is designed to exploit II like no other timeshare can.

So although we only own 1 Marriott we stay in a lot of them thanks to WM.

Not trying to sell WM but there are only a few WMs I don't mind staying at and we love ALL the Marriotts we exchange into and our MF is half yours.


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## pwrshift (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Perry ... If I remember correctly you have one gold week with Marriott. How do you figure you are going to benefit from this ownership on the points plan with Marriott -- or on the 'week' plan. Didn't you used to trade it for Maui, a huge step up, and I'd like to see how you could do that on the new plan for the same amount of cost.

Read what 'owners' are saying here ... click the little arrow at the bottom to scroll to all the posts:

http://www.blogs.marriott.com/marri...r-timeshare-owners-with-more-flexibility.html

Judging by the 94 posts (mostly negative and way more than on 'normal' topics in the past) on Bill Marriott's blog, this is going to be a very hard sell to 300,000 of their 400,000 owners...and neither group will be happy.  The 'low end majority' won't give up 3 weeks for one in Maui and the 'high end minority' won't be able to get 3 weeks elsewhere for their 1 week.

Brian


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

Not at all, it sounds like hype to me. The bottom line is it will take 5-7 years for this to have mid level success. 5 years later, how many people are rushing to buy RCI points ? Switching in the middle of the game is very hard. They have to sell the fact that II will be a thing of the past. The question is, are you buying it ?

BTW
As far as Perry, don't believe what you hear. Perry is a showman and has probably found a way to make money at this new program !! I am not knocking him in any way. He is a smart guy and figures he will make lemonade with the lemons he was dealt. 





hipslo said:


> So, this view of the world suggests to me that you dont think marriott will be playing games with inventory allocation to favor points over weeks?


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

*Games are run by rules to be mastered...*



hipslo said:


> So, this view of the world suggests to me that you dont think marriott will be playing games with inventory allocation to favor points over weeks?



For 4 years I speculated about all the dastardly deeds that Marriott could foist on us with a new Point system - I can't fine ONE dirty trick.

There will never be a way to find out if Marriott is rigging inventory or II and thus you either believe Marriott's new Destination Club is owner friendly or you think they are secretly plotting to screw us.

I am now going to exploit the new rules to our advantage and assume Marriott is going to be owner neutral over a whole host of topics.

Rumors and speculation need no facts to back them up - just willing folks who believe Marriott want's to screw us.

I find no evidence they have done anything in a sneaky, underhanded, way.

I think they set up their rules and 50%+ of the week owners would not find enrolling to be of benefit to them - that's what Marriott planned for and isn't about to change its mind.

Imagine Toyota coming out with a new car that would appeal to EVERY car owner in the world - it would be a colossal failure.  They pick a target market and build products to service that market.

Same with Marriott - why get upset if your weeks don't pan out in the new Point system - use them normally and forget about Marriott.


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

Thats wishful thinking. If 100 existing owners join a day, after one year, that would be 36,500 out of 400,000. Thats less than 10% and I very much doubt they will average 100 a day after MAYBE the first 30 days. It's a numbers game and the numbers are in favor of the deeded week owners so if they stick together, it will be a long process for Marriott. 





PerryM said:


> I think they set up their rules and 50%+ of the week owners would not find enrolling to be of benefit to them - that's what Marriott planned for and isn't about to change its mind.
> .


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

*Binary decisions are simple..*



pwrshift said:


> Hi Perry ... If I remember correctly you have one gold week with Marriott. How do you figure you are going to benefit from this ownership on the points plan with Marriott -- or on the 'week' plan. Didn't you used to trade it for Maui, a huge step up, and I'd like to see how you could do that on the new plan for the same amount of cost.
> 
> Read what 'owners' are saying here ... click the little arrow at the bottom to scroll to all the posts:
> 
> ...



We no longer need a timeshare in Maui - I won't get into why, but we will be there for President's week for many years.  I still will try to exchange into something just as nice, like the Ka'anapali Beach Club that we stayed at this last Feb - just as nice as the old MOC - and with kitchens!

Marriott, I believe, has stated that they expect a low number of folks to enroll their weeks - the Blog indicates that Marriott was wise in assuming this.

For those of you who don't find putting up your week for Points in the new Destination Club are advantageous why in the world get upset?

Folks this is a simple business decision - you stick with what you have, with no changes at all, or you take the plunge in Marriott's new DC.

I'm enrolling and I now have a zillion more options.  Point systems are all about options.  Week systems are totally about barter and ridged restrictions.

The interface between weeks and points is a tough place for both systems and thus why Marriott doesn't bother to devote resources to addressing that area.

So folks, look at it with your business mind and not your emotions - does the new Destination Club offer you new options that you can exploit?  If so join, if not don't.

But complaining to Marriott on a Blog will accomplish what?  Maybe in the movies there are outcomes we all root for but in the business world you simply join or don't join.

And the vast majority of you won't join us - that's OK too.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

*Risk/reward ratio...*



Fletch said:


> Thats wishful thinking. If 100 existing owners join a day, after one year, that would be 36,500 out of 400,000. Thats less than 10% and I very much doubt they will average 100 a day after MAYBE the first 30 days. It's a numbers game and the numbers are in favor of the deeded week owners so if they stick together, it will be a long process for Marriott.



All I know is that we have NOT seen the new Destination Club in action - just the rules and now how Marriott will morph into something completely different in time.

Sadly when many of you realize this the fees will have gone up and perhaps even the ability to use your week as collateral in the new Destination Club.

We have decided that the risk is worth the potential reward.  Will we be right?  Only time will tell and 20/20 hindsight into this business decision.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Not at all, it sounds like hype to me. The bottom line is it will take 5-7 years for this to have mid level success. 5 years later, how many people are rushing to buy RCI points ? Switching in the middle of the game is very hard. They have to sell the fact that II will be a thing of the past. The question is, are you buying it ?
> 
> BTW
> As far as Perry, don't believe what you hear. Perry is a showman and has probably found a way to make money at this new program !! I am not knocking him in any way. He is a smart guy and figures he will make lemonade with the lemons he was dealt.



Thanks for the complement - I take them here on TUG whenever they are thrown at me....

Forget about me - the decision is very simple:

Marriott wants $10 a Point - how much will it cost you and if <$10 this is something to consider.

Marriott wants 40 cents a Point in MF - how much is yours and if around 40 cents this is something to consider.

You are looking at a 2-week old Destination Club that I believe will rock the industry.  I have faith in Marriott because they did not screw us like they could have.

But you make your own decision - just don't come back a year from now and say "Why didn't someone tell us....."


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## winger (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> To me, the biggest problem what the new program is you CAN"T switch after 20 years and pitch 50 destinations. You will never get into
> 
> 
> 1. Either Park City ski locations
> ...



Hi Fletch. On your list is Newport Beach. As I understand, they have some unsold inventory at that resort. So, doesn't that mean that's available for Club use ?


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

yes but very little. I would say the resort was 95% sold out, maybe even higher, and most unsold is Gold season. Newport owners don't trade in general so that resort and Hilton head will never see lots of club points. 





winger said:


> Hi Fletch. On your list is Newport Beach. As I understand, they have some unsold inventory at that resort. So, doesn't that mean that's available for Club use ?


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## Cathyb (Jul 4, 2010)

*Nightmare??*



WelcomeHome said:


> Everyone's worst nightmare - comparing Marriott to WorldMark - We're dead!



Do I sense some snobbishness there?  We own both Marriott AND Worldmark (and Starwood) --each offers a well-rounded choice for vacationing depending on where you plan to go IMHO.:ignore:


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## pwrshift (Jul 4, 2010)

Perry ... please enlighten us on what the zillion more options are? I have gone to Marriott or Ritz with points, taken cruises, booked countless business class flights, had nice dinners, etc. by converting my weeks into points and the 2 million+ points they gave me for buying (in the pre 2003 days). All with Marriott Rewards. What's changed? What are the 'new' more options you refer to?  Show us the way.

Brian



PerryM said:


> ...I still will try to exchange into something just as nice, like the Ka'anapali Beach Club that we stayed at this last Feb - just as nice as the old MOC - and with kitchens! *(How .. if you trade within the Marriott system?)*
> 
> 
> ...I'm enrolling and I now have a zillion more options. Point systems are all about options. Week systems are totally about barter and ridged restrictions. _*(What are those zillion options not already available with MR?)*_
> ...


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## camachinist (Jul 4, 2010)

winger said:


> Hi Fletch. On your list is Newport Beach. As I understand, they have some unsold inventory at that resort. So, doesn't that mean that's available for Club use ?


Take a look at the activity on the OC Recorder site. You'll see activity between "MARRIOTT OWNRSHP RESORTS INC  	" and "MARRIOTT OWNRSHP RESORTS INC TR  " with TR probably meaning 'trust'. I haven't seen that before. There are also a few recissions recorded. There's activity through 6/29 as of this post time but it's probably incomplete. Every deed from the resort to the trust should have to be recorded, so it's possible to track how many unsold weeks are going into the trust. The particulars would probably require a visit to the recorder, which could discern week numbers, hence season. Gold likely has the lion's share.

Any trust-owned interval in any season is available for club members (and others at the trust's discretion). Time will tell how the trust handles the reservation of their ownerships. That's what I'm going to track (and have been) carefully at NCV, which is my home resort, as well as talking to other NCV owners about their experiences.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> Perry ... please enlighten us on what the zillion more options are? I have gone to Marriott or Ritz with points, taken cruises, booked countless business class flights, had nice dinners, etc. by converting my weeks into points and the 2 million+ points they gave me for buying (in the pre 2003 days). All with Marriott Rewards. What's changed? What are the 'new' more options you refer to?  Show us the way.
> 
> Brian



First, my payback period is 12 years for the fees we save.  That single fact is all I need to be upbeat about the new Destination Club.  

Second, 100,000 MRPs EOY is something we can use to our benefit.

Third, Banking 2,150 Points forward to next year and having 4,300 Points next year allows us to take some vacations we really want - space available of course.

4Th the flexibility of using the new rules in a very aggressive manner just suite my usage of Marriott (I'm not going to go into that here - you figure it out)

The ability to control $21,500 of the new Destination Club for just $7,000 is leverage that just makes my mouth water.

Guys you have to do your own case by case analysis and decide what to do, if anything.

In my case, it's a no-brainer the risk to reward ratio favors enrolling.

But to 3 out of 4 of you this is not the case.

Don't get mad a me for the numbers not working out - I can't claim advance knowledge about our Gold Summit Watch - the numbers favor enrolling.  If I was in the vast majority of the owners I would not have to shell out $1,495 but spend that money on something else.

P.S.
When Marriott indicated that 3 out of 4 folks would not find enrolling their weeks advantageous I just knew TUG would replace my favorite TV shows that ended on June 21, 2010.


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Marriott wants $10 a Point - how much will it cost you and if <$10 this is something to consider.



So if Marriott sells points at $10 a point that should be our benchmark? Can you justify in any rational way paying $50K upfront + $2000 a year for 5000 points? If you can't justify a ridiculous price, it's not a benchmark...


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## hotcoffee (Jul 4, 2010)

Perry's conclusion is close my conclusion also.  And it is similar to what my Marriott rep told me.  Marriott seems to be moving toward cheaper alternatives to building big resorts.  I think the days of the big mega-resorts is coming to an end.

I can think of some ideas for great cost-effective vacations along the lines of communities of vacation villas in exotic locations.  Things like those would be a welcome relief from crowded pools and competition for lounge chairs.  I'd like to see Marriott go that route.  The legacy resorts will still be around, but there will be a host of new options and places to go.


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## saturn28 (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> First, my payback period is 12 years for the fees we save.  That single fact is all I need to be upbeat about the new Destination Club.
> 
> Second, 100,000 MRPs EOY is something we can use to our benefit.
> 
> ...



I only have to pay $6000 for my 3 resale weeks plus the $1995 enrolment fee to get 6400 Destination Points. Those points would have cost me $64,000 buying it now through Marriott. To me that is a great deal. I can still use my weeks the old way should I choose, or I have the option to exchange using Destination Points when it benfits me. In addition, I get to trade for Marriott Rewards Points, which I couldn't do before, plus I can use the new Explorer Option.

I could sit on the side and wait for a year to see how this all turns out. However, If I did that there is no guarantee that external weeks owners will still be able to join, or the cost could go up. So, I am leaning towards joining.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually, I think the Marriott Club is a condo hotel.  No wait, it's a fractional.  Oh, darn it.  It's WorldMark.  No, it's the Dow Jones Industrial Average.  That's not it.  It's a Redweek since it's an exchange company.

Perry.  You are full of it.  It's not a Destination Club and you know it.  It's just a lame attempt at creating a new point system.  For a person who wants everyone to think they are smart.  Those who are actually smart know you are a charlatan.

Keep trying.  You'll get it right some day.  What's the saying?  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## laurac260 (Jul 4, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Perry.  You are full of it.  It's not a Destination Club and you know it.  It's just a lame attempt at creating a new point system.  For a person who wants everyone to think they are smart.  Those who are actually smart know you are a charlatan.



Could not have said it better myself.  I have grown quite weary of the "The World According to Perry".   Usually I just ignore him, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work.  He just doesn't go away.


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## laurac260 (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> BTW
> As far as Perry, don't believe what you hear. Perry is a showman and has probably found a way to make money at this new program !! I am not knocking him in any way. He is a smart guy and figures he will make lemonade with the lemons he was dealt.



There's smart, then there's slick.  People who are smart are smart.  People who are slick THINK they are smart.  And they are so impressed with everything that comes out of their mouth that they think others are too.   In public we usually refer to them as "loud talkers".  Charlatan works too.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 4, 2010)

Clearly Perry sees that his costs are low (he outlines it above) and if he uses time that costs less in points (see another of his posts above also) then he can still get some good time out of his low cost resale week.  The trouble will be if others don't join the points- in that case he won't be able to get much use from his points so now he's trying to talk everyone into joining up and giving up their weeks so he can use some of their time.

As far as saying this is a destination club and that they will have single villas and houses in exotic locations I don't see that happening at all.  Basic financial rules tell us that that would be a big money loser for Marriott (economy of scale) and would never fly.  It's still a timeshare however you package it and Marriott isn't saying anything different (even their brochures still say that you are buying into a timeshare program).  We're just seeing more of Perry's speculation again.

tlwmkw


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## chester1122 (Jul 4, 2010)

I have a friend who owns Marriott so I was interested in the changes.  I own Club Intrawest which sounds very similar to the new DC (a points system).  You can access all CI properties plus villas, hotels, bike or kayak vacations even cruises and they have a travel booking arm - they call their extra services extraordinary escapes.  

In truth we have looked at villas, cruises  and the hotels, but the extra charges per night to supplement what our points bring in don't really make it very worthwhile.  We tend to just stick to RCI and our CI vacation villas.  Perhaps the best things Club Intrawest brought to the table recently was a partnership with Hilton where we can use our points to book HGVC and HH hotels.  (but still a $20 per night booking fee)
Will be interested in watching what happens to Marriot.


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## laurac260 (Jul 4, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> The trouble will be if others don't join the points- in that case he won't be able to get much use from his points so now he's trying to talk everyone into joining up and giving up their weeks so he can use some of their time.
> 
> 
> 
> tlwmkw



Personally I think you should all sell your timeshares and buy gold.  Gold is the way to go.  Gold has never been worth more.  I own gold, and so should you. 

(the previous advertisement does not in any way represent the viewpoints of TUG or it's advertisers.  I have received no money for this advertisement).


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## jerseyfinn (Jul 4, 2010)

I agree with most of Perry's basic assumptions. Marriott is a large, credible company. They do indeed respond/react to a reality which sets in hard and heavy when the economy crashes and the recession sucks up all of those discretionary dollars some of which used to trickle down into MVC coffers. Do keep in mind that just a few years ago Marriott trumpets projections for destination travel which had revenue growth in the billions along with plans for growth in fractional owernship as well as the traditional timeshare product. Even Marriott got that one wrong.

Paradoxically, the legacy MVC product is alive and well given that 300,000 folks own on that side and they represent an obligation to Marriott. It's true that Marriott can no longer sell that legacy week product in the volumes or at the profits it does prior to the recession.  Marriott at least demonstrates the ability to pivot quickly when the market changes.



> There will never be a way to find out if Marriott is rigging inventory or II and thus you either believe Marriott's new Destination Club is owner friendly or you think they are secretly plotting to screw us.



Transparency is my biggest worry as a legacy MVC owner because I tend to agree witih what President Reagan kept saying -- trust but verify. We purchase our weeks in the MVC program and all we want is to be able to utilize our weeks every year via owner occupancy with an occassioinal trade -- the old system suits us. I do not relish competing against folks who purchase a travel membership and want a 4 day stay which might inmpede upon the usage dynamics of MVC owners -- we purchased in accordance with the program that Marriott then championed to us and they took the money.  For example, how is the Trust going to be allocated inventory and how will they use it? Is the Trust going to grab the high floor and prime views/prime weeks creating an additional competing party?  This is a real issue to me since legacy owers purchase under a different definition of usage and this is the sort of thing which could pit factions against the other as one party attempts to use their rights and another is trying to sell product and improve revenues.

Marriott is indeed telling us to stand pat if we wish and to enjoy/utilize our weeks just as we have always done.  Fine with me if there are no mega resorts or any additional MVC resorts. But as time moves on and we move forward into the future while Marriott "tests" the new product and floats other ideas/responses I believe that every MVC owner has to ask what is the future of the legacy product. In short, we've got equity in the product ( especially the prime resorts and weeks ) and do not want to be leveraged out the door because Marriott elects to serve a new customer base.

I get a little concerned when a smug sales rep tells Brian that the old days of snagging a 2BR for a 1BR are gone ( never did that myself, but then again we occupy where we own ). How might this saleman be so certain if the bulk of MVC owners stand pat and continue to use the system "the old way" as Marriott assures us to do. If the system is suppossed to be neutral to MVC owners, then might not the request/demand which always determined how the inventory moved and how owners could play that system not continue to function if owner behavior/requests remain relatively unchanged? Or is Marriott going to scoff up all of the Interval requests and utilize this inventory? Are these two programs going to be truely seperate or does Marriott have other rabbits to pull out of their hat?

Information is a commodity and presently Marriott holds all of those cards with this abrupt announcement of "good news". I can understand the necessity to remain mute until the legalities are cleared and they launch the program. But Marriott was surprisingly slow or inconsistent with information and this surprised me for a company which assiduously protects it's reputation and dots the _i_'s and crosses the _t_'s.

As Perry suggests, Marriott puts a lot of thought into this one. I simply believe that Marriott needs to do a whole lot more thinking out loud now so to explain the program and assure legacy owners that Marriott will assidiously honor the legacy program far into the future. 

Barry


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## BocaBoy (Jul 4, 2010)

Are you kidding me Fletch?  Won't be able to get into Williamsburg? Atlantic City?  These are so easy to get into that they have cheap getaways all over the place on II.  Why would they now be hard?  Just saying it does not make it true.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> Clearly Perry sees that his costs are low (he outlines it above) and if he uses time that costs less in points (see another of his posts above also) then he can still get some good time out of his low cost resale week.  The trouble will be if others don't join the points- in that case he won't be able to get much use from his points so now he's trying to talk everyone into joining up and giving up their weeks so he can use some of their time.
> 
> *As far as saying this is a destination club and that they will have single villas and houses in exotic locations I don't see that happening at all.*  Basic financial rules tell us that that would be a big money loser for Marriott (economy of scale) and would never fly.  It's still a timeshare however you package it and Marriott isn't saying anything different (even their brochures still say that you are buying into a timeshare program).  We're just seeing more of Perry's speculation again.
> 
> tlwmkw



That's why I'm bringing this up - will Marriott wait until we've bottomed out (USA) - years, or will they simply start doing what WorldMark has done for years - just buy ready-to-go condos for a song, improve them to Marriott standards, and place the deeds in the Master Trust to sell Points next month.

I'm guessing that this is what Marriott has decided to do and that requires dumping the old timeshare model.

Am I right?  Won't know until I read about Marriott buying 10 condos somewhere - then my DC idea makes a lot of sense and timeshares are history to them.

What makes Marriott different than WM is the fact that they can offer the complete package for your next vacation - everything but the car ride to and from the airport.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 4, 2010)

I just had another e-mail exchange with my rep.  While he seems not to know for sure Marriott's direction with this new program, he seems to strongly believe that there will be fewer big resorts built in the future.  He talked about sites in the big cities around the world as well as sites in locations that Marriott has little or no presence.  He mentioned Australia and some of Caribbean islands.  He also mentioned Tahiti, but may have been just repeating what I had said previously because I had mentioned Tahiti first.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

*BIngo*



tlwmkw said:


> Clearly Perry sees that his costs are low (he outlines it above) and if he uses time that costs less in points (see another of his posts above also) then he can still get some good time out of his low cost resale week.  *The trouble will be if others don't join the points- in that case he won't be able to get much use from his points so now he's trying to talk everyone into joining up and giving up their weeks so he can use some of their time.*
> 
> As far as saying this is a destination club and that they will have single villas and houses in exotic locations I don't see that happening at all.  Basic financial rules tell us that that would be a big money loser for Marriott (economy of scale) and would never fly.  It's still a timeshare however you package it and Marriott isn't saying anything different (even their brochures still say that you are buying into a timeshare program).  We're just seeing more of Perry's speculation again.
> 
> tlwmkw



Absolutely correct and why Marriott is making me a deal I can't turn down.  We need your weeks folks....

This is why Marriott offered ridiculous entrance fees right now - they too hope for folks to join their new Destination Club.

When the uncertainty goes away the prices will have risen to adjust for less risk.

It's all about risk and reward - you take the risk and hope for reward.  Marriott lowers the risk later and raises the prices.


----------



## GregT (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm just speculating here (as we all area), but Marriot could take some of their hotels that are located in an area conducive to vacationing, and convert a floor from hotel rooms to points-based timeshares.  This would both reduce their vacancy rate for the hotel plus give them expanded locations for their timeshare program.

Interesting to contemplate -- they could do that at Waikoloa, Grand Cayman, where else?

Perry, I'm with the others on this one -- I'm not sure what you're seeing that so beneficial to the single week/skimmed owner?  The points program appears to have neutralized your maximizing your July 4th reservation (unless you still trade thru II).  If using points, it seems that you will still need to rent points to be able to do anything with the system, and it's hard to tell if points will rent for less than the MFs?   With 2,150 points every year from the Gold Summit Watch, it seems like you're heavily dependent on off-season travel and the future introduction of an Open Season concept?    It appears that I'm thinking about the system as Marriott intended it, versus a way to maximize it (which eludes me).

Best to all,

Greg


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## FlyerBobcat (Jul 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So if Marriott sells points at $10 a point that should be our benchmark? Can you justify in any rational way paying $50K upfront + $2000 a year for 5000 points? If you can't justify a ridiculous price, it's not a benchmark...



Amen!  When has Marriott's full-freight price been the almighty benchmark, and anything better than that been a good buy?  I looked to see what if would cost to get a week (on points) for a summer Grande Ocean (ocean side) and if figures to be $45K and $1,800 MF.   WOW!!!!!  I thought their pre-points price was ridiculous.

If I'm looking at this wrong.....  Please somebody explain!!!!


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## JimIg23 (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> yes but very little. I would say the resort was 95% sold out, maybe even higher, and most unsold is Gold season. Newport owners don't trade in general so that resort and Hilton head will never see lots of club points.



95%, even with the new build out?


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## Frisbeeace (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> For those of you who don't find putting up your week for Points in the new Destination Club are advantageous why in the world get upset?
> 
> Folks this is a simple business decision - you stick with what you have, with no changes at all, or you take the plunge in Marriott's new DC.



No changes at all?

1. My Sabal Palms week was listed for resale by Marriott at $25,900 but now that I got 2,150 points @ $9.20 each, I assume that its new value is $19,780 a 20% overnight loss.

2. Most high value weeks won't be deposited in II anymore as they have much more buying power in the new destinations program

3. I will have thousand of owners competing with me to book at my home resort with most of them accessing 1 month before I can.

4. I feel like an idiot for buying developer. I could have bought my same week at Ebay and get it in the new system for less than $2,000. Thanks Marriott for rewarding those who bought in the secondary market over your most loyal customers.

The new points system is NOT a separate, independient option that adds to the older ones. It interacts with all of them in some way, hurting the single developer week owner.


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

focus, we are not talking II, we are talk MVCI points. If MVCI has no developer weeks, they will be none with points. 



BocaBoy said:


> Are you kidding me Fletch?  Won't be able to get into Williamsburg? Atlantic City?  These are so easy to get into that they have cheap getaways all over the place on II.  Why would they now be hard?  Just saying it does not make it true.


----------



## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

That would be great EXCEPT you don't know the Marriott hotel buisness model. Marriott owns about 1% of all thier hotels so it's not thiers to convert. 



GregT said:


> I'm just speculating here (as we all area), but Marriot could take some of their hotels that are located in an area conducive to vacationing, and convert a floor from hotel rooms to points-based timeshares.  This would both reduce their vacancy rate for the hotel plus give them expanded locations for their timeshare program.
> 
> Interesting to contemplate -- they could do that at Waikoloa, Grand Cayman, where else?


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## saturn28 (Jul 4, 2010)

Frisbeeace said:


> No changes at all?
> 
> 1. My Sabal Palms week was listed for resale by Marriott at $25,900 but now that I got 2,150 points @ $9.20 each, I assume that its new value is $19,780 a 20% overnight loss.
> 
> ...




You are right to be upset for buying your week from the developer. Marriott told you that if you buy externally that you would not get to trade for Marriott Reward Points. A lot of owner made their decision to by directly from Marriott because of that restriction. However, now all us external weeks purchasers are being offered the ability to trade for Reward Points if we enrol.

In fact in my opinion, the external weeks purchaser is getting the best deal in this new Destination Points Option. Those that purchase points directly from Marriott are really going to get a horrible deal. Especially, when you consider the cost per point that new Marriott Points owners are going to have to pay.


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## jlf58 (Jul 4, 2010)

Yeah , how is Marriott going to be able to let all those KoOlina Island view 2bd resale owners get 90,000 Marriott Reward points for just the small cost of around $1700 dollars with fees ? LOL ...





saturn28 said:


> You are right to be upset for buying your week from the developer. Marriott told you that if you buy externally that you would not get to trade for Marriott Reward Points. A lot of owner made their decision to by directly from Marriott because of that restriction. However, now all us external weeks purchasers are being offered the ability to trade for Reward Points if we enrol.


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Yeah , how is Marriott going to be able to let all those KoOlina Island view 2bd resale owners get 90,000 Marriott Reward points for just the small cost of around $1700 dollars with fees ? LOL ...




I know. Its sort of silly - I can now give up my  mountainside (resale) ski week, which I can rent out for roughly $2,800, in exchange for 125,000 MRPs, which would cost me $1562 to purchase directly from marriott.  Some deal....


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## cruisin (Jul 4, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Yeah , how is Marriott going to be able to let all those KoOlina Island view 2bd resale owners get 90,000 Marriott Reward points for just the small cost of around $1700 dollars with fees ? LOL ...



That is why the "potential" value of all the new places Marriott could add does not seem promising, Marriott had one of the only good points deals with their big European Packages, now they will probably be like Wyndham, Worldmark, etc.. where whenever you trade in points for something the value is horrible, it will be the "Double Skim Scam"


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## RBERR1 (Jul 4, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Take a look at the activity on the OC Recorder site. You'll see activity between "MARRIOTT OWNRSHP RESORTS INC  	" and "MARRIOTT OWNRSHP RESORTS INC TR  " with TR probably meaning 'trust'. I haven't seen that before. There are also a few recissions recorded. There's activity through 6/29 as of this post time but it's probably incomplete. Every deed from the resort to the trust should have to be recorded, so it's possible to track how many unsold weeks are going into the trust. The particulars would probably require a visit to the recorder, which could discern week numbers, hence season. Gold likely has the lion's share.
> 
> Any trust-owned interval in any season is available for club members (and others at the trust's discretion). Time will tell how the trust handles the reservation of their ownerships. That's what I'm going to track (and have been) carefully at NCV, which is my home resort, as well as talking to other NCV owners about their experiences.



Where did you look when you get to the website?


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## RBERR1 (Jul 4, 2010)

jerseyfinn said:


> I agree with most of Perry's basic assumptions. Marriott is a large, credible company. They do indeed respond/react to a reality which sets in hard and heavy when the economy crashes and the recession sucks up all of those discretionary dollars some of which used to trickle down into MVC coffers. Do keep in mind that just a few years ago Marriott trumpets projections for destination travel which had revenue growth in the billions along with plans for growth in fractional owernship as well as the traditional timeshare product. Even Marriott got that one wrong.
> 
> Paradoxically, the legacy MVC product is alive and well given that 300,000 folks own on that side and they represent an obligation to Marriott. It's true that Marriott can no longer sell that legacy week product in the volumes or at the profits it does prior to the recession.  Marriott at least demonstrates the ability to pivot quickly when the market changes.
> 
> ...



I was just thinking pretty much the same thing


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Simply take your cost to buy your weeks plus the enrollment fee and come up with a cost per Point.  Marriott charges $10 ($9.40 - $9.20 in temp promos) and a MF of 40 cents.
> 
> In the case of our Gold Summit Watch we are getting $21,500 worth of DC power for $7,000 cost or about 1/3.  Our MF is 47 cents versus 40 cents.






DanCali said:


> So if Marriott sells points at $10 a point that should be our benchmark? Can you justify in any rational way paying $50K upfront + $2000 a year for 5000 points? If you can't justify a ridiculous price, it's not a benchmark...



Perry - this question was addressed to you... Given the arguments you are using to pitch this points system, it's a very fair question. No comment?


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

Frisbeeace said:


> No changes at all?
> 
> 1. My Sabal Palms week was listed for resale by Marriott at $25,900 but now that I got 2,150 points @ $9.20 each, I assume that its new value is $19,780 a 20% overnight loss.
> 
> ...



Absolutely no changes per your deed.

Everything else is market driven...


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> You are right to be upset for buying your week from the developer. Marriott told you that if you buy externally that you would not get to trade for Marriott Reward Points. A lot of owner made their decision to by directly from Marriott because of that restriction. However, now all us external weeks purchasers are being offered the ability to trade for Reward Points if we enrol.
> 
> *In fact in my opinion, the external weeks purchaser is getting the best deal in this new Destination Points Option.* Those that purchase points directly from Marriott are really going to get a horrible deal. Especially, when you consider the cost per point that new Marriott Points owners are going to have to pay.



Bingo!

4 years of the salesreps bashing us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - up in smoke.

For whatever reason Marriott rewarded all us resale owners for saving tens of thousands of dollars.

This new Point system is VERY resale owner friendly - no doubt about it.


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> This new Point system is VERY resale owner friendly - no doubt about it.



Aren't all resale buyers after 6/20/10 prohibited from joining? How is that friendly towards them or us for that matter? It just devalues everyone's weeks...


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Perry - this question was addressed to you... Given the arguments you are using to pitch this points system, it's a very fair question. No comment?



Sorry grilling and having brewskies....

My only in-depth analysis of Marriott's prices has been Summit Watch - they are spot on, in terms of rental rates.

I mean the difference between what Marriott rent's any unit any day of the year to the Points they charge are within 5%.

So to me that $10 they charge for $1 per Point which equals $1 of rent at Summit Watch is a fantastic rate - one that is equal to whole ownership.

If you own a $500,000 condo and can get $50,000 in rent (10%) you are dancing in the streets.

This is what Marriott is asking at Summit Watch - that $10 is going to go up rapidly.

I'd have to analyze other resorts and see what pattern appears - maybe someone has done this.  

That 2,150 Points they are offering my Gold Summit Watch equals the average of the Gold season at Summit Watch rent minus 4th of July week which is 3,900 and $3,900 in rent.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Aren't all resale buyers after 6/20/10 prohibited from joining? How is that friendly towards them or us for that matter? It just devalues everyone's weeks...



I look at it the other way around.

Those that own deeds dates before 6/21/10 got an instant bonus from Marriott to join their Point program - they grandfathered all of us in.

But they only did that once and resale weeks are plain old resale weeks as before.

If 3 out of 4 Marriott owners aren't going to enroll I just don't see the resale market taking a dive.

Initially there is uncertainty and free markets discount prices with uncertainty - later when stability returns prices will stabilize - to what level I don't know.

That ROFR that Marriott used to use maybe used very infrequently and the resale market will know this - lower prices - sure.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Bingo!
> 
> 4 years of the salesreps bashing us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - up in smoke.
> 
> ...



This is the "grandfathering" that DaveM said was going to happen.  I tend to agree that we are getting a good deal here.  Since I believe Marriott will be enhancing the program down the road, I think it is very risky for resale owners who closed prior to 6/20/2010 to reject this opportunity.  They may never get another.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that resale owners should just hold their noses (if they don't like it) and enroll.  Doing so preserves their right to take advantage of new opportunities that will come along down the road (which I am confident will happen).  Developer purchasers have no such risk.  They can take a wait-and-see approach (albeit they are probably going to have to pay more to enroll later).


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Sorry grilling and having brewskies....
> 
> My only in-depth analysis of Marriott's prices has been Summit Watch - they are spot on, in terms of rental rates.
> 
> ...



You are using rack rates for your rental analysis, and ignoring the rent you would pay for a gold SW week on redweek. Why shouldnt true value be based on a real, market based rental rate, rather than the published rack rate that pretty much no one actually pays?

Several listings on redweek right now for 2br summer SW weeks, between $750 and $1200.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

hipslo said:


> You are using rack rates for your rental analysis, and ignoring the rent you would pay for a gold SW week on redweek. Why shouldnt true value be based on a real, market based rental rate, rather than the published rack rate that pretty much no one actually pays?
> 
> Several listings on redweek right now for 2br summer SW weeks, between $750 and $1200.



Why stop at RedWeek - go for CraigsList for $100?

Marriott used their own rental rates and didn't bother with RedWeek or CraigsList.


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Why stop at RedWeek - go for CraigsList for $100?
> 
> Marriott used their own rental rates and didn't bother with RedWeek or CraigsList.




Exactly.  The rack rates don't mean anything.  They never have.  Multiplying an arbitrary, non -market rate rent that hardly anyone actually pays by 10 doesnt mean anything, either. 

In my case, I am consistently able to rent out mountainside ski weeks for roughly 10% of the cost of those weeks, but I purchased the weeks resale.  Had I overpaid by paying  developer pricing, that would not be the case.  The resale pricing was therefore a much closer indication of true economic value than was developer pricing, based on true market rental rates.

Just because the new model is a points model rather than a weeks model doesnt all of a sudden make rack rates and developer pricing a valid benchmark of value.


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## PerryM (Jul 4, 2010)

hipslo said:


> Exactly.  *The rack rates don't mean anything.*  They never have.  Multiplying an arbitrary, non -market rate rent that hardly anyone actually pays by 10 doesnt mean anything, either.
> 
> In my case, I am consistently able to rent out mountainside ski weeks for roughly 10% of the cost of those weeks, but I purchased the weeks resale.  Had I overpaid by paying  developer pricing, that would not be the case.  The resale pricing was therefore a much closer indication of true economic value than was developer pricing, based on true market rental rates.
> 
> Just because the new model is a points model rather than a weeks model doesnt all of a sudden make rack rates and developer pricing a valid benchmark of value.



Of course rack rates mean something - the rental agency charges them until a lack of demand forces them to cut into their profit.

What should a hotel do?  Ask folks to pay whatever they feel is fair for a room?

A rack rate is the maximum allowable rate that the resort can charge and over holiday weeks that's what they charge - rack rates.  Unless there is a 9/11 or oil on the beach or other event that reduces demand.

A rack rate is just like the sticker on that new car - it is the starting point of negotiations - if negotiations are allowed.  Many car dealers charge MORE than the sticker price if there is high demand - hotels are barred from doing that.

A rack rate is the absolute maximum amount of money the resort can get from a renter - thus lowering that rack rate is a big big deal and why rack rates can be used for benchmarks.

The guy on CraigsList trying to get $500 rent for a timeshare that has a MF of $1,000 is insane to use as a benchmark.  Same with RedWeek or other places amateurs play resort tycoon and ask stupid rates.


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## saturn28 (Jul 4, 2010)

hipslo said:


> I know. Its sort of silly - I can now give up my  mountainside (resale) ski week, which I can rent out for roughly $2,800, in exchange for 125,000 MRPs, which would cost me $1562 to purchase directly from marriott.  Some deal....



It is a good deal because it is an extra option. That is it. It is an option. Sometimes it may be a good option and sometime it may not.

Before if I wasn't able to stay at my home resort, I could try to rent it, deposit my week with II, or loose the week. However if I am not able to rent my week for whatever reason, and I am travelling to a place that doesn't have a Marriott Vacation Club Resort, I would have to bank the week in II. That week can sit there for 2 years before you lose it. 

So, if I don't travel to a place that has a Marriott Vacation Club Resort in the next 2 years, I will lose the week. However, now that I have the option to trade my week into Marriott Reward Points, I will have use of those points until Marriott cancels the Marriott Rewards Program. Now those points are in my account I can stay at any Marriott Hotel Brand in the world, and they are located in numerous places where they don't have Marriott Vacation Club Resorts.

So, to me it is a good option to be able to trade my week for Marriott Reward Points. I may not get full dollar for dollar value, but I am not loosing the use of my week altogether. I may not be able to stay at the highest category Marriott hotel for 7 nights, but I will be able to stay at a category 3 or 4 resort especially when they offer discounts for staying 5 nights.

As Marriott adds more options for the external weeks purchaser, it can only be a good thing. It doesn't mean that option will be the best thing on every occasion, but when it is I will use it. Before my only option was to use my full week, rent it if I could, deposit it with II, or loose the week altogether. Now in addition to those things, I can trade for Marriott Reward Points, Trade for Marriott Destination Points, and trade my points to use the Explorer Club Option. The more options I have the better.


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Of course rack rates mean something - the rental agency charges them until a lack of demand forces them to cut into their profit.
> 
> What should a hotel do?  Ask folks to pay whatever they feel is fair for a room?
> 
> ...



If one is consistently able to access the same inventory on redweek, myresortnetowrk, etc for substantially less (half?) than rack rates, then ignoring that reality in an attempt to perform an economic analysis of owning based on rental costs just doesnt make much sense.

  But, if it works for you, then it works for you....


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> It is a good deal because it is an extra option. That is it. It is an option. Sometimes it may be a good option and sometime it may not.
> 
> Before if I wasn't able to stay at my home resort, I could try to rent it, deposit my week with II, or loose the week. However if I am not able to rent my week for whatever reason, and I am travelling to a place that doesn't have a Marriott Vacation Club Resort, I would have to bank the week in II. That week can sit there for 2 years before you lose it.
> 
> ...



Sure, it may work in your case, and in other cases, as well.  For me, it just doesnt.  Even Marriott itself is currently offering substanitally more to rent my week from me than it would cost me to purchase the points.  125,000 points simply isnt enough of an incentive to give up a ski week at mountainside.  I supopose its nice to have the option, but for me, I dont see how it would ever be a good option.


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Sorry grilling and having brewskies....
> 
> My only in-depth analysis of Marriott's prices has been Summit Watch - they are spot on, in terms of rental rates.
> 
> ...



Glad you're enjoying the holiday 

You missed my point in the previous posts...

The Marriott $10/point price is ungrounded in any realistic analysis. You buy 5000 points for $50K + $2000 in MFs. If you can earn a modest 4% return on that $50K elsewhere then, along with the $2K in MFs, that's $4000 a year for 5000 points. You cannot justify that any any way shape or form... For example, it's 4700 to book the peak summer NCV weeks. Why buy 5000 points when Marriott itself rents those nights for $399 + tax (and obviously you rent it much less on RedWeek). Even if the points were for free and you just paid the $0.40 in maintenance fees, you could rent an NCV summer week for pretty much that amount (around $2000 give or take a bit).   - I'd like to see you put that one in your eBook... 

Oh, and we forgot to mention that Marriott devalues those points so you need to factor depreciation in the total cost of ownership...

Why would I or anyone else base the value of my points on the $10 Marriott price when I wouldn't even pay half of that myself?

And you are doing the same with Summit Watch rental prices... I'm sure you yourself do NOT rent your Summit Watch week for $3900... Maybe you rent it for $1.5K? Maybe less? So if a points owner needs 4000 points to book it that alone if $1600 in MFs... can you still justify paying $40K upfront?

Another example - if you had bought your Gold Summit Watch for $20K on the resale market, would you say it was a good deal because Marriott sold the same thing for $30K? Who cares what they sell it for...?

Marriott selling prices and rental prices are not relevant. Those comparisons are more appropriate for a timeshare sales presentation...


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## hipslo (Jul 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Marriott selling prices and rental prices are not relevant. Those comparisons are more appropriate for a timeshare sales presentation...



Come to think of, I thought I had heard those comparisions somewhere before.


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Those that own deeds dates before 6/21/10 got an instant bonus from Marriott to join their Point program - they grandfathered all of us in.
> 
> But they only did that once and resale weeks are plain old resale weeks as before.



But is it really an "amnesty" (as one Marriott salesperson referred to it)?

Or does it only hold as long as you are enrolled?

What if I enroll and leave points after 2 years? Can I still keep the option to convert to MRP is will the dreaded asterisk come back to haunt me?


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## dualrated2 (Jul 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But is it really an "amnesty" (as one Marriott salesperson referred to it)?
> 
> Or does it only hold as long as you are enrolled?
> 
> What if I enroll and leave points after 2 years? Can I still keep the option to convert to MRP is will the dreaded asterisk come back to haunt me?



Excellent question and one I hope is answered soon.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

hipslo said:


> If one is consistently able to access the same inventory on redweek, myresortnetowrk, etc for substantially less (half?) than rack rates, then ignoring that reality in an attempt to perform an economic analysis of owning based on rental costs just doesnt make much sense.
> 
> But, if it works for you, then it works for you....



Whole ownership condo owners personally rent their units through VRBO for half what their unit rents for on Orbitz - Orbitz is the rack rate and rents those same units like crazy.

Let's say 1/2 the units rent on VRBO for $300 a night and 1/2 the units rent for $600 a night on Orbitz and the rack rate is $650 a night.  Orbitz and the owner both use the rack rate to come up with their rental rates.

Rack rates have a lot of thought behind them and mean something - yes you can find cheaper rates but for comparing the worth of one condo against another they are perfect for that purpose.

Personally I believe Marriott did just that - they took their own rack rates and applied some kind of formula to account for things that they felt would allow for a better comparison of one unit against another.

I can't prove it but Summit Watch sure leads me to that conclusion.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But is it really an "amnesty" (as one Marriott salesperson referred to it)?
> 
> Or does it only hold as long as you are enrolled?
> 
> What if I enroll and leave points after 2 years? Can I still keep the option to convert to MRP is will the dreaded asterisk come back to haunt me?



I'm not sure what the question is here, but that won't stop me:

The Points Marriott quotes you for your enrolled and redeemed week are constant for as long as you pay your fees and stay enrolled.

Once you leave the system, like if you sell your week, that week is permanently barred from ever being enrolled again.  As to Points left in the account you can exchange them to another Marriott owner who might pay you something for them.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Glad you're enjoying the holiday
> 
> You missed my point in the previous posts...
> 
> ...



I have a thing about "Lost opportunity cost" - its a joke.

For every "Lost opportunity dollar" there should be many more "Found savings dollars" from the same investment but they are always left out of the analysis.

I view a timeshare as will it save me money versus renting the same unit from the developer.  If it saves you money then it is something to consider, if it doesn't save you money then other things, like guaranteed access to a resort during New Year's week come into play.

I've gone through many examples with Summit Watch where the $10 purchase price generates $1 rental offset - then you simply check what you want to rent and how many Points are needed to rent it for Points.

Cash is king and a zillion times more flexible that any timeshare in existence.

Exploiting the new Marriott system is simple - in our case I get to control $21,500 of the new Marriott for 1/3 the cost and have a deeded week to fall back on plus the old system.


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## DanCali (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I'm not sure what the question is here, but that won't stop me:
> 
> The Points Marriott quotes you for your enrolled and redeemed week are constant for as long as you pay your fees and stay enrolled.
> 
> Once you leave the system, like if you sell your week, that week is permanently barred from ever being enrolled again.  As to Points left in the account you can exchange them to another Marriott owner who might pay you something for them.



My question was related to MRP points. Marriott says if you join the points system as a resale owner all is forgoten... you get an "amnesty"... you are equal to everyone... no more "resale asterisk"

But is it all still forgotten if you join the points program and subsequenly leave? Will someone who does that retain the ability to convert to hotel points? Or if "everything forgotten" only as long as you remain in the points system and pay $199 a year?


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My question was related to MRP points. Marriott says if you join the points system as a resale owner all is forgoten... you get an "amnesty"... you are equal to everyone... no more "resale asterisk"
> 
> But is it all still forgotten if you join the points program and subsequenly leave? Will someone who does that retain the ability to convert to hotel points? Or if "everything forgotten" only as long as you remain in the points system and pay $199 a year?



I don't know who came up with that load but the instant you leave the new program so does access to MRPs as a resale owner.  For an owner who originally bought from Marriott they retain MRP access until they sell that week and then its a resale with no access.


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## DanCali (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I view a timeshare as will it save me money versus renting the same unit from the developer.  If it saves you money then it is something to consider



I guess this is where we differ because I want to save money versus renting... not necessarily from the developer. Therefore, I don't even look at developer prices. When I rent from Marriott I can cancel up to 1, 3 or 7 days before checkin without penalty and I get daily housekeeping... it's not even an apples to apples comparison in terms of what you get.

However, if you insist on looking at developer prices, I recommend looking at AAA rates rather than rack rates. Those are probably a fairer comparison...


----------



## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I guess this is where we differ because I want to save money versus renting... not necessarily from the developer. Therefore, I don't even look at developer prices. When I rent from Marriott I can cancel up to 1, 3 or 7 days before checkin without penalty and I get daily housekeeping... it's not even an apples to apples comparison in terms of what you get.
> 
> However, if you insist on looking at developer prices, I recommend looking at AAA rates rather than rack rates. Those are probably a fairer comparison...



I agree that Rack Rates are normally not paid - but lets go with your AAA idea.

Let's say the average of ALL units of ALL Marriotts is $100 per night rack rate (I just made up that number).

Let's say that the AAA rate of ALL units of ALL Marriotts is $80 per night.

Either one allows us to instantly set up a way to value one unit against another unit 365 days a year.  That's all I'm getting at - setting up comparable worth.

If you want to use the AAA rate just multiply it by 1.25 and you get Rack Rate again.  It's all about the rack rate - the hotel owner spent lots of time figuring out that rate and that's based upon supply and demand and has nothing to do with ownership.


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## Frisbeeace (Jul 5, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> ... So, to me it is a good option to be able to trade my week for Marriott Reward Points. I may not get full dollar for dollar value, but I am not loosing the use of my week altogether. I may not be able to stay at the highest category Marriott hotel for 7 nights, but I will be able to stay at a category 3 or 4 resort especially when they offer discounts for staying 5 nights.



And the skimming factor here is 64%. Give in your week for 110,000 points which Marriott offers at 180,000. Give in 7 nights in a 2br condo, prime season, and get a room for 3 nights at a good hotel. What a steal!


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## DanCali (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> It's all about the rack rate - the hotel owner spent lots of time figuring out that rate and that's based upon supply and demand and has nothing to do with ownership.



I still disagree. Rack rates are pretty meaningless. Moreover, they often have nothing to do with supply and demand... Does anyone pay anything close to Orlando rack rates? 

I've been in hotels that have rack rates of $1500 on a placard in the closet... I stayed there for $300. Starwood gives their credit card holders a 50% off rack rate promo for one stay every year. I have yet to find a stay where the 50% was less than the lowest available rate online or the AAA rate. Here is a post from Flyer Talk discussing the efficacy on that coupon for Domestic stays.

Here is the definition of rack rate from the Travel Industry dictionary:



> *Rack Rate.* The price a hotel charges for a room before any discount has been taken into account. The published rate for a room, *sometimes set artificially high* and used to calculate a variety of discounts.



So I don't see a reason to base timeshare purchasing decisions on prices set artificially high. IMO, the price I see for the weeks I want on RedWeek or TUG is based more on supply and demand than rack rates.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I still disagree. Rack rates are pretty meaningless. Moreover, they often have nothing to do with supply and demand... Does anyone pay anything close to Orlando rack rates?
> 
> I've been in hotels that have rack rates of $1500 on a placard in the closet... I stayed there for $300. Starwood gives their credit card holders a 50% off rack rate promo for one stay every year. I have yet to find a stay where the 50% was less than the lowest available rate online or the AAA rate. Here is a post from Flyer Talk discussing the efficacy on that coupon for Domestic stays.
> 
> ...



In this case I'm talking about Marriott's for their own program.  In 10+ years of watching Marriott.com I've never seen their rack rate be anything but reasonable.


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## Clark (Jul 5, 2010)

Fletch said:


> It's a numbers game and the numbers are in favor of the deeded week owners so if they stick together, it will be a long process for Marriott.



Owners stick together? Are you kidding? Owners don't know each other, and have no idea there is something to stick together about.

TUG is probably the biggest gathering place and if *all* of the Marriott Tuggers banded together that would still be about ummmm, maybe 0%

Oh, and the chance of TUGGERS sticking together, maybe about say -- 0%

Let's see -- how do probabablities interact -- oh yes -- if they are independent events you multiply them so 0% times 0% = 00%

I'm just sayin'


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## camachinist (Jul 5, 2010)

RBERR1 said:


> Where did you look when you get to the website?


http://cr.ocgov.com/grantorgrantee2/searchBusinessName.asp

Type "Marriott" into the search box and enter appropriate date range.


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## saturn28 (Jul 5, 2010)

Frisbeeace said:


> And the skimming factor here is 64%. Give in your week for 110,000 points which Marriott offers at 180,000. Give in 7 nights in a 2br condo, prime season, and get a room for 3 nights at a good hotel. What a steal!




Marriott has allowed their Vacation Club owners the option of trading for Marriott Rewards Points. Since they are running a business, I expect that they are going to try and make a profit. I am not against someone offering a service and making a profit. I would do the same thing. 

However, Marriott owners can freely choose to either use the Marriott Rewards option or not. If you think they are making too much money, don't trade your week for Marriott Rewards Points. You are looking to get full value dollar for dollar back from Marriott for giving them your week. 

When I trade my week for points, I don't expect to get dollar for dollar. So, it makes it much easier for me to use the Marriott Rewards Program. I am happy to get 7 nights at a Marriott Residence Inn, where breakfast is included, or a Courtyard by Marriott. Especially when the alternative choice may be that I lose the week altogether.


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## sparty (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> In this case I'm talking about Marriott's for their own program.  In 10+ years of watching Marriott.com I've never seen their rack rate be anything but reasonable.



Perry - I kind of agree with DanCali.. 

After watching your presentation this is the biggest thing I saw...

1 point doesn't = 1 dollar of rent 
  - probably closer to 1 pt = $0.50 in rent

1 point doesn't = $10 to buy
  - probably closer to 1 pt should = $5 (or less) to buy

Rack rates are rather meaningless.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

sparty said:


> Perry - I kind of agree with DanCali..
> 
> After watching your presentation this is the biggest thing I saw...
> 
> ...



I can make a case for a near 100% correlation with Summit Watch - if there was no correlation that would not happen.

I don't know what Marriott applied to rack rates to come up with their Points per day.

Somebody show me something better and I'll happily adopt it - I have no real stake in this theory - just something I observed.

I'm open...


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## m61376 (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I can make a case for a near 100% correlation with Summit Watch - if there was no correlation that would not happen.
> 
> I don't know what Marriott applied to rack rates to come up with their Points per day.
> 
> ...



Perry- I know I have made this criticism of your analysis as well. You are generalizing what you see from your ownership as applying across the board, and I don't think that's reasonable. Just because you find that in your particular case 1 point = $1 of rent does not mean that they did that elsewhere.

In fact, I was told that MVCI does not consider timeshare owners/users to be the same as renters, so they did not base their point allocations on rental rates. In fact, a week in Aruba that Marriott itself charges about 6k a week to rent was awarded less points than a week that Marriott itself charges in the area of 3K to rent.

So while your theories may be perfectly aligned for Summit Watch, they fall short elsewhere. While I respect your wealth of knowledge, I do find your overwhelming generalizations lead to flawed conclusions.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 5, 2010)

PerryM said:


> ...
> Marriott's new DC is all about the destination - from the moment you step onto that airline - get in your rental car - check into your villa - do excursions - eat at restaurants - do mini-excursions from your villa - to returning home - Marriott is involved the WHOLE way...



I am not sure if anybody mentioned in this thread that HGVC is already doing this "destination stuff" for a long time and it is extremely poor value for the owners. Very few people use their HGVC points for RV rentals, cruises, car rentals and increasingly not even for hotel points because all of them "suck" in the value that they provide. People buy HGVC points for timesharing and that is what they want to use their points for. Everything else is just to make HGVC owner manual look pretty with all this other stuff that you can do with your HGVC points (but really you should not). 

The timesharing message is getting old, people are getting smart about not buying from the developer, so Marriott has come up with another set of "lingo" to confuse the Ma and Pa walking into the sales presentation room: "DEEEESTEEEENAAAAATION Club." Dare not compare our DC with old timesharing! 

And HGVC does not even skim on the points! Shame on you Marriott for skimming!

Marriott can put Lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Perry- I know I have made this criticism of your analysis as well. You are generalizing what you see from your ownership as applying across the board, and I don't think that's reasonable. Just because you find that in your particular case 1 point = $1 of rent does not mean that they did that elsewhere.
> 
> In fact, I was told that MVCI does not consider timeshare owners/users to be the same as renters, so they did not base their point allocations on rental rates. In fact, a week in Aruba that Marriott itself charges about 6k a week to rent was awarded less points than a week that Marriott itself charges in the area of 3K to rent.
> 
> So while your theories may be perfectly aligned for Summit Watch, they fall short elsewhere. While I respect your wealth of knowledge, I do find your overwhelming generalizations lead to flawed conclusions.



Talking is easy - how about some analysis to help the rest of us unenlightened slobs?


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> I am not sure if anybody mentioned in this thread that HGVC is already doing this "destination stuff" for a long time and it is extremely poor value for the owners. Very few people use their HGVC points for RV rentals, cruises, car rentals and increasingly not even for hotel points because all of them "suck" in the value that they provide. People buy HGVC points for timesharing and that is what they want to use their points for. Everything else is just to make HGVC owner manual look pretty with all this other stuff that you can do with your HGVC points (but really you should not).
> 
> The timesharing message is getting old, people are getting smart about not buying from the developer, so Marriott has come up with another set of "lingo" to confuse the Ma and Pa walking into the sales presentation room: "DEEEESTEEEENAAAAATION Club." Dare not compare our DC with old timesharing!
> 
> ...



Wow, 2 weeks and you declare the new Point system a failure.  I'm not that good at reading tea leaves as you are.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

sparty said:


> Perry - I kind of agree with DanCali..
> 
> After watching your presentation this is the biggest thing I saw...
> 
> ...



I'm pretty busy right this week so I can't pick some other resorts to analyze but I can tell you that if Summit Watch correlates then others will too.

I have no idea what Marriott used to come up with their Point values and eventually I will have a much better idea.

In the mean time I would hope folks take some time and do the research and share the results.


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## pwm (Jul 6, 2010)

*Data points from recent sales pitch on DC*

I don't want to get into a debate but just provide some data points from a recent sales pitch today.

What we were told aligns with has been stated above.  1000 club points at an introductory price of $9200.  MFs at $0.40 per point.  If you own 6500 pts minimum you get premier status allowing 13 month advance reservations (like you get if you own 2 more weeks under legacy system).

An interesting aspect of the Trust points is that the MFs are calculated across the 11 trust properties that are geographically dispersed throughout the Marriott system.  So if there is a special assessment due to catastrophe in one location, that special assessment is not limited to one specific property by across all trust properties.  Thus, the Club point MFs are an average across all trust properties.  

I am currently at Kauai Beach Club in a 1BR ocean front unit (4th July week, obviously).  It is an II exchange week for our 1BR Mountain Valley Lodge (MVL) Gold week in Breckenridge.  I have consistently traded our MVL week for Hawaii via II (Kauai Beach Club and Ko 'Olina).

During the presentation on the merits of DC I asked what our current exchange week was worth.  I was told it would cost approx 3900 "Club" pts.  I asked what my MVL week was worth.  I was told 1375 Club pts.  I may be slightly off from memory of he exact values, but it was clear to me that with low value weeks, trying to trade up which can be done through II will not be possible via club points in DC.  It will level playing field so to speak with more equitable trades.  We bought MVL 14 years ago from Marriott (we were young and naive) and II has allowed me to recoup some of the overpricing from the developer.  We probably paid about $13500 14 years ago and it is now worth 1/10 in Club points.  MF is $1200.  We have never traded for MR pts but always exchanged for both Marriott and non-Marriott weeks via II.

On the other hand, we also own a Waiohai week (resale) that is worth 4225 club points per year.  MF is $1500 for a 2 BR.  The ratios are quite different. Cost per Club pt (initial purchase) was 1/2 as much (we bought 5 years ago and had we purchased in the last year it would have even been much better in our favor due to economic downturn and decrease in resale prices).  And MF for 1000 pts purchased from Marriott is $400, so again our current WAI week is cheaper than buying Club pts outright from Marriott.

Adding our two weeks together (if I was to enroll our weeks in DC) would only total 5600 points, 900 shy of getting "premier" status allowing 13 month advance reservations.  So I got pitched 1000 Club pts for $9200, $1400 to convert the Waiohai (resale) week, the MVL week would be converted free, and about $500 closing costs.  For $11k, this would increase my annual MF by $400 and I would end up with 6600 annual Club pts, $3100 total MFs and $165 annual DC membership fees.  And what would I get for it?  There were incentives for day-of-presentation purchase such as one-time 1100 Club pts and 25k MR pts.

However, in the new system I would not get two HI weeks like I can do now through II.  I might be able to bank Waiohai every other year so I could do two back to back Waiohai weeks.  So there might be some value with a high value HI week, but not with a low value week.

 There might be some value to get our resale week into the system as I was told that this will only be allowed for a "limited time".  I was thinking that if I really wanted to get points cheaply I should shop for a cheap Marriott resale week with low MFs, but that idea was shot down when I learned that only weeks closed prior to 6/20/10 were eligible to be enrolled in DC.

In the end, we did not purchase or enroll our weeks.

Having sat through many presentations over the years (I always ask why did we do that again), I think the best approach is to hold what we have, trade up when possible via II, and there is always the option to rent what we don't use or rent what we need (there are plenty of weeks available at or below MF costs) rather than paying the purchase price plus MFs for another week.

Sorry for the rambling.  Maybe it has provided some useful data points.

Given what I have read above, I am sure it will get picked apart.  As I stated earlier, I am not looking for a debate.

I am sure the new program will work for some, and not for others.  I asked if the club point values are fixed or will be adjusted.  My sales rep left room for adjustment.  Meaning if a resort decreases in demand relative to another, there will be upward and downward movement in values.  Just like with the legacy approach to Marriott timeshares, it seems with DC, the owner takes the risk (changes in value), not the developer, which is the whole idea behind vacation ownership from the developer's standpoint.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out over time.


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## DanCali (Jul 6, 2010)

pwm said:


> We bought MVL 14 years ago from Marriott (we were young and naive) and II has allowed me to recoup some of the overpricing from the developer.



Marriott allegedly launched thos program because II is "the biggest customer complaint". I assume you did not complain... 



pwm said:


> In the end, we did not purchase or enroll our weeks.
> 
> Having sat through many presentations over the years (I always ask why did we do that again), I think the best approach is to hold what we have, trade up when possible via II, and there is always the option to rent what we don't use or rent what we need (there are plenty of weeks available at or below MF costs) rather than paying the purchase price plus MFs for another week.



 You are no longer "young and naive"...


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## Starbucks (Jul 6, 2010)

*Cash is king*

Unfortunately i can´t afford to buy e-books right now, so i must ask if anyone can enlighten me why joining that new "Destination Club" would make any financial sense at all as long as you are flexible with your vacation time ?

So lets say i want to stay at Newport Coast Villas for a week starting June 11, 2011. According to the point chart that would cost me 4,225 points. Maintenance fee for those points is 1,690 US$.

Same reservation made on marriott.com using rate code "MOD" results in a base rate of US$ 211,-- per night. Including taxes my total would be 1,624.70US$ for the week. As i pay that amount with prepaid Marriott Giftcards my out-of-pocket cost should be around 1,520 US$. The base rate of US$ 211,-- for 7 nights adds up to US$ 1,477 which should result in a credit of at least (base member) 14.777 Marriott Reward points. Even if using a very low valuation approach of 0,5 US Cent per Marriott Rewards point those points could be considered as a "cash-back" of roughly 74 USD. Net cost for my NCV vacation week in June 2011 is therefore 1,446 US$; 244,-- US$ less than the MF charged for point owners.

I am not an financial expert but given the current situation that above scenario holds true for quite a few other resorts and seasons as well it seems to me very hard that the uninformed point owner does ever reach break-even for the initial investment. Reaching a fast break-even for the uninformed week owner wasn´t easy either but at least trading-up, maximising usage time and the ability to enter the game by purchasing cheapish re-sale weeks did help significantly to reach that goal. For some owners those additional options might have been the only financial sound reasons to buy into MVCI.

Sure, i am positive as well that Marriott might add other options for point owners (rental cars, cruise etc.) but if they fail to deliver true value within their core business (accomodation) for most of their owners i highly doubt that they will be able to offer something valuable in other fields.

As of now i think that the new programm might add some options for current "high-rollers" who have invested big bucks into their TS or people who don´t (have to) care about their vacation dollars. Joe Average and people who look for true-value must look very hard to find any value within that new point system. It will be interesting to see if and when Marriott does add something valuable like 
their "Express Breaks" option within MVCI AP where you could rent a unit for the nightly point cost * MF per point.


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## ldanna (Jul 6, 2010)

Starbucks said:


> So lets say i want to stay at Newport Coast Villas for a week starting June 11, 2011. According to the point chart that would cost me 4,225 points. Maintenance fee for those points is 1,690 US$.
> 
> Same reservation made on marriott.com using rate code "MOD" results in a base rate of US$ 211,-- per night. Including taxes my total would be 1,624.70US$ for the week. As i pay that amount with prepaid Marriott Giftcards my out-of-pocket cost should be around 1,520 US$. The base rate of US$ 211,-- for 7 nights adds up to US$ 1,477 which should result in a credit of at least (base member) 14.777 Marriott Reward points. Even if using a very low valuation approach of 0,5 US Cent per Marriott Rewards point those points could be considered as a "cash-back" of roughly 74 USD. Net cost for my NCV vacation week in June 2011 is therefore 1,446 US$; 244,-- US$ less than the MF charged for point owners.



You can go to Redweek and rent a week from $1,000 to 1,400 depending on the week you want. Still, it doesn't make any sense buying the points.


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## timeos2 (Jul 6, 2010)

*Not a new idea just the Marriott version*



Starbucks said:


> Unfortunately i can´t afford to buy e-books right now, so i must ask if anyone can enlighten me why joining that new "Destination Club" would make any financial sense at all as long as you are flexible with your vacation time ?
> 
> Sure, i am positive as well that Marriott might add other options for point owners (rental cars, cruise etc.) but if they fail to deliver true value within their core business (accomodation) for most of their owners i highly doubt that they will be able to offer something valuable in other fields.
> 
> ...



No sense if that is your full understanding and plan to use.  

First the idea that it's a destination club rather than a timeshare would mean ALL of the many points systems such as Wyndham (who really has already taken on a failed full ownership condo project and made it a part of their points system), DRI, even RCI Points as they all include hotel and other options to the standard timeshare base. It's semantics and really changes nothing. This is yet another points system as an option for trade/use for non-timeshare products just like so many other brands offer. 

So why use it rather than cash? If your goal is largely to get hotel rooms, rental cars, plane flights, etc then you are far better off using the ultimate points system - accepted in ANY system - cash!  But if you are already an owner in the Marriott system and now want to enjoy the ability to easily use resorts in that system without requiring the uncertainty and costs of II then the new points system may be worth a careful look. It is going to be more costly than simply using cash but so is owning a timeshare rather than simply renting one when desired. It is a lifestyle choice to a great extent plus the whole landscape has changed over the past few years as we all know. Don't forget the underlying, never altered TUG mantra of "buy where you want to go" as the ultimate protection against the unknowns of trades as well as the never ending upward spiral in costs.  A points system to some degree changes owning to use to include a much broader number of choices while still using your "home" ownership. But it comes at a cost. 

If someone is starting out today with a clean slate the advice is probably slightly different than that for an existing owner of any timeshare. There are holes in the current roll out of the new Marriott system - such as the lack of discounted last minute inventory - that should be addressed as they get things tweaked.  Overall it appears to be a reasonably priced option for Marriott owners tired of the II games and with a desire to expand beyond their one resort ownership for use.  Those that simply plan to use their current week as is, those that have had success with II (and that feel it will continue - an unknown for the next few years) and those who are now finding the ease of simply renting virtually any desired resort/time at rates far below the annual costs of most ownerships aren't good candidates. 

But as for cash vs  a points system cash wins. Ownership vs rental is a closer call if you have a long term view - just study the options carefully.  Destination club? No. It's just another points system.


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## camachinist (Jul 6, 2010)

ldanna said:


> You can go to Redweek and rent a week from $1,000 to 1,400 depending on the week you want. Still, it doesn't make any sense buying the points.


For clarification, that 'June' NCV rate was extracted from the current furthest ahead booking rate, in June 2011, during 'June gloom' and, based on such a week still being available in my reservation calendar (now and historically), not very popular. Further evidence of 'popularity' can be found in this thread, where June 2011 NCV dates were seen on II. 

A better and more historically accurate rate is what I would pay (MOD rate not available) for a Saturday night stay (still bookable, though whole weeks are hard to come by) this July (2010). The rate is 600.00/nt (660.00 with tax). I have next week (July 10-17) rented for 2150 (307/nt), historically low for NCV summer, and less than the historical Marriott rental rate, but I rented it out at that price nearly a year ago. MF's and RE taxes are about 1/2 that. A Platinum NCV normally runs about 10-12K on eBay, so would take over 10 years to break even based on savings of MF's vs 'rental' at my historical averages (for summer weeks). That said, it gets worse, since rental rates have remained relatively stagnant or dropping (supply and demand) and MF's have rose nearly 30% in the last seven years (of my ownerships there). 

Like I said in another thread, as a developer NCV owner, I'll join DCP when pigs fly. There's nothing in it for me. Marriott already got their pound of flesh. They ain't gettin' any more...


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

*What do squirrels and Destination Clubs have in common?*

So guys what is a Destination Club (DC) - would you know one if it bit your leg?

Its been said that a squirrel is just a rat with some fantastic PR.

So is a DC - its a timeshare with some fantastic PR.

That's the definition guys.

I described my ideal DC 2 years ago at this link: www.PerryM.com

If you take the time to read it you will see its similar to what Marriott's new program is - read it before claiming Marriott is not a DC.

Marriott can now buy individual condos, it could not before - that's what DCs do.

Marriott can emulate WorldMark and just buy a small number of condos or part of a residential street and incorporate them into their new system - they could not do that before.

Of course Marriott is going in the DC marketplace - that's why the dumped selling timeshare weeks and now sell Points in a Destination Club.

Marriott's new DC can handle your complete vacation - from the time you use their MRPs to buy airline tickets, to the villa you stay at on vacation, to the cruises they now incorporate directly into the new DC, to the events and Jeep rides and you name it on vacation, to the plane ride back home.

That's what DCs do guys - look it up.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Marriott's new DC can handle your complete vacation - from the time you use their MRPs to buy airline tickets, to the villa you stay at on vacation, to the cruises they now incorporate directly into the new DC, to the events and Jeep rides and you name it on vacation, to the plane ride back home.
> 
> That's what DCs do guys - look it up.



Yes, they can. But can you provide any numbers on how much are you paying for that plane ride back home and how much are you paying for that Jeep ride in Sedona? 

Below are some examples of (made up numbers) what this destination club values might look like: 

Same Jeep ride booked directly through the outfitter: $110
Same Jeep ride booked through DC points: $200 in MFs

Cruise booked through a discount cruise agent for two: $1800
Same Cruise cabin booked through DC points: $2500 in MFs (plus loss of your timeshare usage)

Some of the comments made here on the things that Marriott's DC will do for you are not even funny! "Experts" are making these comments without any details to back it up whether it will be in the financial interest of the owners to consider Marriott for anything other than the "roof" to stay under.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Yes, they can. But can you provide any numbers on how much are you paying for that plane ride back home and how much are you paying for that Jeep ride in Sedona?
> 
> Below are some examples of (made up numbers) what this destination club values might look like:
> 
> ...



Geez guys let me make it even simpler:

Marriott already has one Destination Club - the Ritz-Carlton Destination Club

Marriott's new name is Marriott Vacation Club Destinations.
(Reverse the last 2 words: Marriott Vacation Destinations Club)

I don't need Marriott coming out with a white paper on what they are doing - it's clear as a bell to me.

As to prices - who cares?

If you have Points and paid the MF and you want to use them for a Jeep Ride only the lynch mob on TUG will tell them how stupid they are.

It's their money and their vacation and their decision - be happy for them and don't tell them they are idiots.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

Starbucks said:


> *Unfortunately i can´t afford to buy e-books right now*, so i must ask if anyone can enlighten me why joining that new "Destination Club" would make any financial sense at all as long as you are flexible with your vacation time ?
> 
> So lets say i want to stay at Newport Coast Villas for a week starting June 11, 2011. According to the point chart that would cost me 4,225 points. Maintenance fee for those points is 1,690 US$.
> 
> ...



I just sent out #250 eBook this morning, all free, - just send me a PM with your eMail address and I'll send it to you, at no cost - don't be embarrassed.  Oh Geez - offer ends July 6, 2010.


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## saturn28 (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I just sent out #250 eBook this morning, all free, - just send me a PM with your eMail address and I'll send it to you, at no cost - don't be embarrassed.  Oh Geez - offer ends July 6, 2010.



I received one of your ebooks. I want to thank you for it. It lays out everything about the Destination Points program in 43 easy to read and understand pages.


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## GeezerGreg (Jul 6, 2010)

*Probably the biggest benefit of joining*

Just a quick point. As Marriott builds new properties they will probably make them points only properties.

This enables Marriott to sell them easily, but also makes them not accessible to non points members.

Short term this is not a huge deal, but long term people who do not convert will have less inventory available, other than the aging properties they always had access to in the Marriott portfolio.


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## cruz-in (Jul 6, 2010)

*Cruise $2500 in MF???*

Hi,

    Still trying to learn about the new system. Can't figure how a cruise booked thru DC is this much. Could you please give me a little background on how you calculated this? 

Thanks


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## timeos2 (Jul 6, 2010)

*Wow. Stay away from rumor to 6/20. A few days of endorsement then pow! It's dead meat*



PerryM said:


> Geez guys let me make it even simpler:
> 
> Marriott already has one Destination Club - the Ritz-Carlton Destination Club
> 
> ...



Well, if you are going to insist that a timeshare system is a destination club then I have to assume you are also recommending against any buy in, correct? We agreed a few years back, after you took a 180 degree turn on earlier advice offered, that DCs are no mans land and should be avoided.  Correct?  I'm a bit surprised that you have turned on the Marriott offering again after the brief endorsement of it for limited owners.  But if it a destination club in sheeps clothing then the regular advice stands. Don't get involved with destination clubs as they are guaranteed money pits that you will lose on in the long term.  End of that story I guess.


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## Frisbeeace (Jul 6, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> Marriott has allowed their Vacation Club owners the option of trading for Marriott Rewards Points. Since they are running a business, I expect that they are going to try and make a profit. I am not against someone offering a service and making a profit. I would do the same thing.
> 
> However, Marriott owners can freely choose to either use the Marriott Rewards option or not. If you think they are making too much money, don't trade your week for Marriott Rewards Points. You are looking to get full value dollar for dollar back from Marriott for giving them your week.
> 
> When I trade my week for points, I don't expect to get dollar for dollar. So, it makes it much easier for me to use the Marriott Rewards Program. I am happy to get 7 nights at a Marriott Residence Inn, where breakfast is included, or a Courtyard by Marriott. Especially when the alternative choice may be that I lose the week altogether.



So, everybody is mad about the 7-15% skimming on Vacation Club Points but a 64% skimming on Rewards Points looks reasonable to you? I don't expect dollar for dollar but something in between. I don't feel blessed for having the chance to trade my week for MR points after buying developer and paying +$1,000 per year in MFs.

By the way, I don´t call a 7 night stay in a room at a category 3/4 hotel a vacation but rather a punishment ...

You are certainly a very optimistic guy.


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## m61376 (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Talking is easy - how about some analysis to help the rest of us unenlightened slobs?



Wow- I'm a little surprised. In fact- I did send you a rather detailed analysis of how, at least for the Aruba properties, your $1 per point conclusion doesn't work. If you remember you expressed surprise and suggested that I check on those allocations; Marriott remains firm in their stance that timeshare people basically are different than  renters and that while renters at Marriott may be willing to pay more for certain locations and/or views, timeshare owners aren't. They even distinguish between timeshare owners and occasional timeshare exchangers.

Despite being alerted to the fact that your logic may work for Summit Watch but it doesn't apply across the board, you continue to proffer that it does.

To elaborate- using my specific example (and I freely admit this may be unique to the Aruba properties, but I am not making sweeping generalizations):
-3 weeks ago Marirott charged almost a $5000 premium for an OS view at the Surf Club over an OV. Marriott deemed that timeshare owners would pay a premium for a premium location. Now, the new and improved club doesn't feel that timeshare exchangers will pay more for an OS room, but at the same time Marriott is charging $40 to $50 more per night to rent an OS rather than an OV room
-On one hand, Marriott finds the supply and demand during even Aruba's Gold season justify much higher rental rates (from Marriott directly) than even the peak seasons in Hilton Head and Palm Beach, and on the other hand MVCI says they are not worth even as much. Rental rates justify Gold weeks being valued similarly at the very least to these properties, yet even Platinum Aruba weeks fall far short. A night during Aruba’s Platinum season has a fair market value (as evidenced by Marriott’s own rental rates) of double that of a Platinum Ocean Pointe villa and almost double that of a Surfwatch and other Hilton Head property villas during their peak season, yet is allocated hundreds of points less. It is astounding to me that I would be trading in a week that Marriott rents for in the $5500-6000 range, and can’t exchange into a week that Marriott itself rents for $3000.
-To illustrate further: I was allotted 4075 points for my OS Plat. Surf Club week. An Ocean Pointe 2BR OS owner was awarded 4325 points.. If I go to Marriott.com and look at a mid January night, to book the 2BR OS villa at the SC costs $855 per night ($810 for an OV, btw), while Marriott itself charges $429 to rent a 2BR OS room at Ocean Pointe during the same Platinum high demand date. So I ask- how does Marriott place a higher value on an Aruba week, and Marriott Vacation Club places a much lower value? I cannot even book a week in that Florida property with my point allotment, yet Marriott literally charges double to rent it.

Similarly, Plat. Hilton Head nights renting for about 60% of what Plat. Aruba nights rent for, but Aruba weeks are but being awarded significantly less points. My Aruba 3BR OV Gold unit was allocated 3975 points. A 3BR Gold Hilton Head Surfwatch week was allocated 4625 points, also for an OV. Interestingly, a 3BR Surfwatch night rents for $632 per night for a mid August night- and that's the rent for a Platinum night- not a Gold, while my 3BR Gold unit rents for $830 per night for exactly the same date. So- my 3BR Gold unit rents for more on Marriott.com than a Surfwatch 3BR Platinum unit (since early August is Platinum season in Hilton Head), with the same view designation, yet my Gold week isn't even allocated the same number of points as a Surfwatch Gold week.

Similarly, 2BR in Aruba's Gold season rent for more than 2BR's in Hilton Head's Plat. season- again for the same early August night, a Gold Aruba OS 2BR rents for $585 per night while a Surfwatch 2BR OS Plat. rents for $486, and of course the Plat. 2BR OS units in Aruba rent for $750-850- per night during the season.

So I am not simply spewing generalizations- I am illustrating how, at least for certain properties, your sweeping conclusions are flawed.


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## m61376 (Jul 6, 2010)

pwm said:


> Adding our two weeks together (if I was to enroll our weeks in DC) would only total 5600 points, 900 shy of getting "premier" status allowing 13 month advance reservations.  So I got pitched 1000 Club pts for $9200, $1400 to convert the Waiohai (resale) week, the MVL week would be converted free, and about $500 closing costs.  For $11k, this would increase my annual MF by $400 and I would end up with 6600 annual Club pts, $3100 total MFs and $165 annual DC membership fees.  And what would I get for it?  There were incentives for day-of-presentation purchase such as one-time 1100 Club pts and 25k MR pts.


A lot of what you posted made sense, btw- so I am not being critical- just wanted to point out that the annual dues would be $199 for multiple weeks. I am assuming the conversion cost was 1400 rather than 1995 since the purchase would give you a 595 credit off the conversion fee.


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## cruz-in (Jul 6, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Yes, they can. But can you provide any numbers on how much are you paying for that plane ride back home and how much are you paying for that Jeep ride in Sedona?
> 
> Below are some examples of (made up numbers) what this destination club values might look like:
> 
> ...



As I mentioned, I do not understand your numbers. Not trying to be difficult just trying to understand. Here is the example I had:

On a jan 2011 curise for 2, the online discount price is for a balcony is $1800 (as you mentioned);

Now on the Marriott site the same cruise and cabin category for 2 is 2650 Points. Called Marriott to verify this was for 2 (not a per person rate). They confirmed 2650 for 2. So I think I am comparing apples to apples. 

Doesn't $2650 point equate to about $1100 in maintenance fees? If so I am missing how you got to $2500. I am sure I do not understand something. 

Not trying to say whether, even if my read is correct, it is a good deal or not, just trying to understand the system.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 6, 2010)

cruz-in said:


> As I mentioned, I do not understand your numbers. Not trying to be difficult just trying to understand. Here is the example I had:
> 
> On a jan 2011 curise for 2, the online discount price is for a balcony is $1800 (as you mentioned);
> 
> ...



If your numbers are correct based on actual quotes, then I am wrong. I just made up some number (and I clearly said these are made up numbers) to illustrate how using destination points could be not very useful for booking anything other than the timeshare units. It appears that Marriott is keeping the value of destination points high for booking cruises, etc. These values are very low for using HGVC points for cruises.


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## pwm (Jul 6, 2010)

m61376 said:


> A lot of what you posted made sense, btw- so I am not being critical- just wanted to point out that the annual dues would be $199 for multiple weeks. I am assuming the conversion cost was 1400 rather than 1995 since the purchase would give you a 595 credit off the conversion fee.



Thanks for clarification on the annual DC fee.

Yes, if both the weeks were enrolled, the enrollment fee would be lowered to $1400 due to a $595 credit for the week purchased from the developer.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Well, if you are going to insist that a timeshare system is a destination club then I have to assume you are also recommending against any buy in, correct? We agreed a few years back, after you took a 180 degree turn on earlier advice offered, that DCs are no mans land and should be avoided.  Correct?  I'm a bit surprised that you have turned on the Marriott offering again after the brief endorsement of it for limited owners.  But if it a destination club in sheeps clothing then the regular advice stands. Don't get involved with destination clubs as they are guaranteed money pits that you will lose on in the long term.  End of that story I guess.



John you are a static type of person and all you do is take today's events and go back 5 years or so - your reasoning is just silly.

Events change all the time but you live in the past - I pity you.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Wow- I'm a little surprised. In fact- I did send you a rather detailed analysis of how, at least for the Aruba properties, your $1 per point conclusion doesn't work. If you remember you expressed surprise and suggested that I check on those allocations; Marriott remains firm in their stance that timeshare people basically are different than  renters and that while renters at Marriott may be willing to pay more for certain locations and/or views, timeshare owners aren't. They even distinguish between timeshare owners and occasional timeshare exchangers.
> 
> Despite being alerted to the fact that your logic may work for Summit Watch but it doesn't apply across the board, you continue to proffer that it does.
> 
> ...



I used to trade only 1 stock - DIA - it represents the 30 DOW stocks;  since our government has basically done away with free markets I now trade only the SPY - S&P 500 index stock.

Why?  Because there is about an 85% correlation of any stock to the DJIA.  So why screw around with companies that do screwy things and CEO's die.

Same here - Summit Watch was the benchmark for the new Point system - it has to be the correlation is just too great.  All the other resorts are indexed from SW in various ways that I will never figure out and no one else.

I don't know what the system wide average is but it will be indexed to SW.

If enough folks make spreadsheets the pattern will emerge.  Sadly I am just too busy right now but later I will do this and get a better feel for what they did.

There is a pattern here and I believe SW is where it all came from; can't prove it until a lot of work takes place.  I'm doing it just because I want to know - it means nothing to anyone else.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2010)

GeezerGreg said:


> Just a quick point. As Marriott builds new properties they will probably make them points only properties.
> 
> This enables Marriott to sell them easily, but also makes them not accessible to non points members.
> 
> Short term this is not a huge deal, but long term people who do not convert will have less inventory available, other than the aging properties they always had access to in the Marriott portfolio.



Bingo.

So how much is that worth?  Is it worth all the skimming you guys keep talking about?

These are pre-construction prices that will never be lower.  Additionally Marriott will probably stop Legacy weeks from enrolling.  They already do now - there have been resales that are coming in dated after 6/20/10 and those weeks will never be allowed in.

Just more things to consider that have NO way to place a dollar value on them.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Bingo.
> 
> So how much is that worth?  Is it worth all the skimming you guys keep talking about?
> 
> ...



I am going to back off from posting my recommendations to people who are undecided because there is so much "noise" going on now in TUG.  I firmly believe that it is in any resale owner's best interest to enroll regardless of the number of weeks they own.  But, there is a lot of advice being given that might be more self-serving to the giver than beneficial to those who sincerely want to know what to do.  If this new program is never going to offer anything more than weeks at big resorts like it has done historically, then some of the advice now being handed out makes sense.  But, I firmly believe that Marriott has more in the offing than just weeks at big resorts.  The real value in this program I think is yet to come.


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## m61376 (Jul 6, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I used to trade only 1 stock - DIA - it represents the 30 DOW stocks;  since our government has basically done away with free markets I now trade only the SPY - S&P 500 index stock.
> 
> Why?  Because there is about an 85% correlation of any stock to the DJIA.  So why screw around with companies that do screwy things and CEO's die.
> 
> ...



Just because you found your perfect correlation with one resort doesn't make it the benchmark of the entire system. Making a blanket statement without any proof or understanding (as you aptly point out yourself) that it is so because it fits your analysis doesn't add credibility to your analysis.

Could the Surf Club be an aberration- absolutely. Frankly, it doesn't make sense. Then again, the relatively high point valuations of other properties with relatively low rental rates also shoot another hole in your theory. But- if you want to believe it is so just because you think it is, then by all means you are free to have that opinion. But I think you do people a disservice when you promote yourself as an expert without fact to back up your theories.


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