# Possible Re-Sale Path to VIP Status?



## rrlongwell (Dec 1, 2011)

Under the member's directory and verified by Reservations apparently someone with no ownership interest in Wynhdam Vacation Resorts can buy fixed weeks contracts and they count as VIP Eligable Points.  

Please check my math if this hypothetical is true:

2 fixed week contracts that are 2 bedroom - 154,000 point contracts (most likely from the Legacy resorts in the Wynhdam Vacation Resorts portfolio).  

$1 dollar to buy
Seller paid closing
Seller paid transfer fee

About $2,500 to pay for the conversion to points.

Out of pocket expenses equal $5,000 or less.

Additional fixed week contracts could be purchased to increase the VIP level to whatever is desired?


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## kaio (Dec 1, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> About $2,500 to pay for the conversion to points.



Interesting... but understandable IMO... if you obtain a fixed week on resale but then convert to points, then you are obtaining those points from the developer. [and paying developer conversion price to do such]... definitely a cheaper route towards vip then buying UDI points from the developer tho.  good information.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 1, 2011)

kaio said:


> Interesting... but understandable IMO... if you obtain a fixed week on resale but then convert to points, then you are obtaining those points from the developer. [and paying developer conversion price to do such]... definitely a cheaper route towards vip then buying UDI points from the developer tho.  good information.



Thanks.  I give up, I see "IMO"  often and do not have a clue what it means.


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## ronparise (Dec 1, 2011)

Nice idea, but it wont work. Ive tried


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 1, 2011)

You can buy floating red weeks at Wyndham's flagship resorts, go to a sales presentation, pay about $15K, and become VIP Platinum pretty easily.:ignore:


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## timeos2 (Dec 1, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Nice idea, but it wont work. Ive tried



You're correct, Ron. Can't do it. Resale is resale fixed or points


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## Rob&Carol Q (Dec 1, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Thanks.  I give up, I see "IMO"  often and do not have a clue what it means.



IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My "Humble" Opinion

It's good to have texting queens in the house sometimes...


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## bnoble (Dec 1, 2011)

> Nice idea, but it wont work. Ive tried


Right.  Once upon a time, paying to convert was considered a "developer purchase", whether or not you were the original owner of the week. That loophole was closed some time ago---now, you must be the original owner (and maybe not even then; I'm not sure).


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## ronparise (Dec 1, 2011)

Ive looked into this and the cheapest path to gold as near as I can tell, is to buy  two 3 bedroom red weeks at resorts affiliated with RCI, but not points of any kind. and PIC them into the Wyndham system with a retail purchase of a 126000 points. 

254+254+126=634000 points and gold VIP...Depending on the mf for those three bedrooms units your mf per 1000 points can be quite low, perhaps even under $3/1000 points. That and the 35% VIP Gold discount and the 10 guest certificates might make this seem attractive. 

However 

That retail purchase will cost you $12000 to $27000 depending on where you do it. National Harbor quoted me $27000 when I was there recently  and Corporate sales offered me a contract for $12000 

In my estimation the cost benefit ratio is not favorable and the payback period too long 

The exception is if you plan on adding several million more points (purchased resale) to your account for the VIP discounts, then I can make the argument that this makes sense


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## WeLovetoTravel (Dec 1, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Thanks.  I give up, I see "IMO"  often and do not have a clue what it means.



It means in my opinion


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## kalua (Dec 1, 2011)

*quick path to vip*

ronparise it is my understanding that all of your resale points can not be counted toward vip or get the discount, except the resale you buy from wyndham in your example 126,000 from wyndham,and the to pic weeks are all that counts nothing you have, or add later, except those purchased from wyndham


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## ronparise (Dec 1, 2011)

kalua said:


> ronparise it is my understanding that all of your resale points can not be counted toward vip or get the discount, except the resale you buy from wyndham in your example 126,000 from wyndham,and the to pic weeks are all that counts nothing you have, or add later, except those purchased from wyndham



No;   if you are vip (say with 350000 qualifying points) and you get 5 guest certificates and a 25% discount in the 60 day window...You can add more resale points (say 650000 more) to your account and all one million will get the 25% discount. ie additional resale points wont move you to the next level, but all your points will enjoy the same discount

I suppose that could change, in fact I had a salesman tell me last week that to get vip status all the qualifying points have to be purchased at the same time....I think he was going for a big sale,  and what he said was total crap...but Im not positive


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## rrlongwell (Dec 1, 2011)

Rob&Carol Q said:


> IMO = In My Opinion
> IMHO = In My "Humble" Opinion
> 
> It's good to have texting queens in the house sometimes...



Thanks for the defination and responses to all.


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## antjmar (Dec 1, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> You can buy floating red weeks at Wyndham's flagship resorts, go to a sales presentation, pay about $15K, and become VIP Platinum pretty easily.:ignore:



Only $15k for VIP Platinum???  Did you forget a zero at the end?


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## chapjim (Dec 1, 2011)

kalua said:


> ronparise it is my understanding that all of your resale points can not be counted toward vip or get the discount, except the resale you buy from wyndham in your example 126,000 from wyndham,and the to pic weeks are all that counts nothing you have, or add later, except those purchased from wyndham



I bought 1,011,000 points from Wyndham.  Four different contracts over about seven years.  The 1 million points made me VIP Platinum.  I then bought another 2 million resale points.  Unquestionably, the resale points BY THEMSELVES would have not qualified me for VIP status.  However, I bought them after getting VIP Platinum and I use the resale points exactly the same way as the other points.  I see no difference in their utility.  I get 50% discounts, lots of free guest confirmations, tons of housekeeping credits, etc.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 2, 2011)

kaio said:


> Interesting... but understandable IMO... if you obtain a fixed week on resale but then convert to points, then you are obtaining those points from the developer. [and paying developer conversion price to do such]... definitely a cheaper route towards vip then buying UDI points from the developer tho.  good information.



Also, arguably, creates the "ownership interest" that appears in the membership directory.  The ownership interest would be the contract where you paid Wyndham for the points.

"Ownership Interest" as defined in the Members Directory, is, "An interest in (i) a fixed or floating timeshare interval, (ii) an undivided timeshare interrest, (iii) an estate for years, (iv) a leashold/membership or "right to use" interest, or (v) other interests which may be accepted into the Vacation Plan."

It appears to me from the above, that Wyndham points in the Wyndham Vacation Resorts system are the Ownership Interest as described above under points (ii), (iii) (iv), and (v).

Fixed and Floating weeks have their own catagory under primarily point (i), although they could show up under other points as well.  

It also appears to me that points associated with a re-sale fixed week contract that are subsequently converted to points bought through Wyndham for X dollars plus giving Wyndham the right to use the underlying week arguably come under a number of the points identified in the member directory definition.


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## ace2000 (Dec 2, 2011)

chapjim said:


> I bought 1,011,000 points from Wyndham.  Four different contracts over about seven years.  The 1 million points made me VIP Platinum.  I then bought another 2 million resale points.  Unquestionably, the resale points BY THEMSELVES would have not qualified me for VIP status.  However, I bought them after getting VIP Platinum and I use the resale points exactly the same way as the other points.  I see no difference in their utility.  I get 50% discounts, lots of free guest confirmations, tons of housekeeping credits, etc.


 
Just curious, do you use all that by yourself or do you rent it out?


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## am1 (Dec 2, 2011)

As others have said this will not be a way to VIP.  Regardless of how one thinks the member directory reads.


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## ronparise (Dec 2, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Also, arguably, creates the "ownership interest" that appears in the membership directory.  The ownership interest would be the contract where you paid Wyndham for the points.



No...

Points are "symbolic points" symbolic of an "ownership interest"...the ownership interest is in the deeded peoperty. Thats what has to be purchased  directly from Wyndham

Bottom line (and Im quite sure about this) is that points from converted fixed weeks are not qualified vip points unless the week was purchased directly from wyndham, . 

I understand that some salesmen will promise that they can get it done if you buy a new contract...they are lying.   Ask them to put it in writing...and they wont


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## chapjim (Dec 2, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Just curious, do you use all that by yourself or do you rent it out?



We use very few of the points ourselves.  We book a long weekend now and then or a single night to break up an otherwise intolerably long drive (Wyndham Smoky Mountains on the way between Fairfax County, VA and New Orleans, for example).

One reason we don't use more points is we also have seventeen fixed or floating weeks in various places (Cocoa Beach, New Orleans, Pompano Beach, San Francisco, and some others).  As a group, it's more difficult to cover maintenance fees by renting the weeks-based units so we try to use some of those ourselves.  Even there, we probably only use three or four weeks a year.

In 2011, we did weeks at Wyndham Santa Barbara (right after nine days in 2010 at Ocean Walk in Daytona), Quarter House, Lake Placid Club Lodges (an exchange), and Quarter House again.  Plus long weekends at Governor's Green in Williamsburg and Skyline Tower in Atlantic City.

Barring some work complications that might arise, we're planning on hitting Quarter House for a week starting 12/30 (New Years Eve and the Saint-Carolina game on New Years Day, then watch the Sugar Bowl crazies make fools of themselves), then a night at Wyndham Panama City Beach on the way to a week at Wyndham Santa Barbara.  I'm going to try to see some Washingon Nationals spring training and have two March weeks at The Resort on Cocoa Beach for that, if I can pull it off.  If not, we'll probably go to ROCB for Memorial Day week.  It gets fuzzy after that.  Maybe Santa Barbara (one of our favorites) in late July, our annual Thanksgiving Week at Quarter House.  Something like that.


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## ronparise (Dec 2, 2011)

When I grow up I want to be just like Jim;  Renting enough timeshare points and weeks to pay for what I use myself and to make a profit 

If Wyndham is my vehicle, my analysis tells me that  platinum or gold is needed to make this happen.  Thats why I have looked into possible paths to VIP as closely as I have.  I 'm certain it can not be done without a retail purchase. And it dosent make sense (to me) without 3 million or more points, most with arp for special event weeks in various cities (Bike week in Daytona, Mardi Gras in New Orleans, snow bird weeks in Pompono etc)

Thanks Jim,  for sharing


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## ace2000 (Dec 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> When I grow up I want to be just like Jim;  Renting enough timeshare points and weeks to pay for what I use myself and to make a profit
> 
> If Wyndham is my vehicle, my analysis tells me that  platinum or gold is needed to make this happen.  Thats why I have looked into possible paths to VIP as closely as I have.  I 'm certain it can not be done without a retail purchase. And it dosent make sense (to me) without 3 million or more points, most with arp for special event weeks in various cities (Bike week in Daytona, Mardi Gras in New Orleans, snow bird weeks in Pompono etc)
> 
> Thanks Jim,  for sharing


 
Ron, if you ever figure out the best method, please PM me!


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## rrlongwell (Dec 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> No...
> 
> Points are "symbolic points" symbolic of an "ownership interest"...the ownership interest is in the deeded peoperty. Thats what has to be purchased  directly from Wyndham
> 
> ...



What you said in the last paragraph is not a total lie, I know of at least one case where this has happened.  I did not mean to upset the staus quo on the company line on tugs.  Sorry about that.  Everything is not necessarily as it appears in the World of Wyndhamland.

P.S.  In my experience Wyndham Sales Staff does put things like this in writting, if you are insistant that it be part of the sales process and is necessary to complete the purchase.  If anyone out their has actually purchased re-sale a fixed week and converted it to points, can they give Wyndham Owner services a call and see if they are VIP eligable points and post the answer, it would be appriciated.


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## kaio (Dec 2, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Also, arguably, creates the "ownership interest"



I think the reasoning has logic for sure... but I know little to nothing regarding the developer process and everything involved.  It leaves me pondering in different unrelated aspects tho ... Wyndhamland... lol...


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## kalua (Dec 2, 2011)

*vip status*

ronparise with what you said about once vip status is achieved , all resale points added is treated as vip ,if i understand your post correctly, that is contrary to every up date i've attended in the last 3 year's ,even with purchasing a new annual contract of at least 154,000 or so , at MB 2 weeks ago i was told they would not count .this is interesting ,one time i pressed the issue of them telling me they would count i told them that if they put it in writing and i would sign ,they reneged,then so did i.have you done this? we all know how to tell when a wyndham salesperson is lying !! and even if they had put it in writing wyndham could always say that the person did not have the authority to do that.,just look at the way they keep changing things and taking away benefits .


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 2, 2011)

Ah.  Longing for the good old days in Wyndham.  Wyndham used to be the best opportunity for rentals on the market.  Now, it's not even worth the time required to book and rent the units.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 2, 2011)

kalua said:


> ronparise with what you said about once vip status is achieved , all resale points added is treated as vip ,if i understand your post correctly, that is contrary to every up date i've attended in the last 3 year's ,even with purchasing a new annual contract of at least 154,000 or so , at MB 2 weeks ago i was told they would not count .this is interesting ,one time i pressed the issue of them telling me they would count i told them that if they put it in writing and i would sign ,they reneged,then so did i.have you done this? we all know how to tell when a wyndham salesperson is lying !! and even if they had put it in writing wyndham could always say that the person did not have the authority to do that.,just look at the way they keep changing things and taking away benefits .



resale do not count toward VIP - however - Resale are treated like any other points so I own about half my points resale but all my points are VIP and I get a 50% discount on all of them.


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## ronparise (Dec 2, 2011)

kalua said:


> ronparise with what you said about once vip status is achieved , all resale points added is treated as vip ,if i understand your post correctly, that is contrary to every up date i've attended in the last 3 year's ,even with purchasing a new annual contract of at least 154,000 or so , at MB 2 weeks ago i was told they would not count .this is interesting ,one time i pressed the issue of them telling me they would count i told them that if they put it in writing and i would sign ,they reneged,then so did i.have you done this? we all know how to tell when a wyndham salesperson is lying !! and even if they had put it in writing wyndham could always say that the person did not have the authority to do that.,just look at the way they keep changing things and taking away benefits .



see chapjim's post above...he bought a million qualifying points to become VIP platinum, and then added 2 million resale. All 3 million work the same ie 50% discount in the express reservations window


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 2, 2011)

I think chapjim's got the right business plan  .

Wondering if anyone (hint-hint...ron or jim?) has does a cost analysis of the benefits of upgrading to presidential reserve.   Under the same prinicple that once you achieve presidential reserve status, all points are treated as such.


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## ronparise (Dec 2, 2011)

Sandi Bo said:


> I think chapjim's got the right business plan  .
> 
> Wondering if anyone (hint-hint...ron or jim?) has does a cost analysis of the benefits of upgrading to presidential reserve.   Under the same prinicple that once you achieve presidential reserve status, all points are treated as such.



Not me;
 I havent even put my strategy to justify going  gold on paper yet. Its all in my head (and its about to explode)

what are the benefits of presidential reserve? I understand the room is better, and you get a special presidential reserve phone number to call. and I think that there are special exchanges you can do, but dont all the one million qualifying points have to be purchased from Wyndham? or can you PIC in

and once in, what are the financial benefits...isnt it the same 50% discounts, and 15 guest certs per 1 million points or is ther more to it?

I suppose you could rent presidential reserve suites for more, so I quess the question is;  can you rent them for enough more to make the purchase of a million retail points worthwhile?...I doubt it but stand ready to look at someone elses analysis to show me wrong


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## learnalot (Dec 2, 2011)

Sandi Bo said:


> I think chapjim's got the right business plan  .
> 
> Wondering if anyone (hint-hint...ron or jim?) has does a cost analysis of the benefits of upgrading to presidential reserve.   Under the same prinicple that once you achieve presidential reserve status, all points are treated as such.



I doubt that all the points could be treated as PR unless they were deeded as such through a process involving a developer purchase.  Even if they could, I doubt it would be cost effective in most situations.  The PR inventory is limited and actually only available at 8 (9 now, I think) resorts.  You would of course be able to spend the points at other resorts within the points are points timeframe at 10 months, but not with any of thee benefits available for which you are paying the PR premiums.  Because all inventory is either deeded or, in the case of CWA (Access), held in a trust, I am fairly certain that the 14 month ARP privileges are limited to PR inventory.


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## ronparise (Dec 2, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Ah.  Longing for the good old days in Wyndham.  Wyndham used to be the best opportunity for rentals on the market.  Now, it's not even worth the time required to book and rent the units.



I dont know the good old days...but it seems to me that there are ways to make Wyndham work for rentals today...as long as your goals are modest . I dont think renting Wyndham reservations will move me into the 1%. but a few extra bucks would be welcome


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> see chapjim's post above...he bought a million qualifying points to become VIP platinum, and then added 2 million resale. All 3 million work the same ie 50% discount in the express reservations window



But, you don't get extra guest certificates at $99 per reservation for resale points.  And, the express reservation window isn't very good anymore given the change in policy of when the cancelled reservations are released.

Show me a business case that generates $100k in income using Wyndham.  It will require way too much risk in annual maintenance fees.  Not worth it anymore.

Kaio's business model is better.  Act as an intermediary for someone else who liquidates timeshares.  Those points are free.  If you get anything, it's a good deal.  Only problem is that model doesn't scale either.  Too much work for how much revenue you get despite the fact that it is high margin.

Anyone can make a few thousand dollars per year renting timeshares.  That's a pretty low bar.  What's interesting is when you can generate $100k or more in annual income with low upfront capital and low risk in annual maintenance fees.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I dont know the good old days...but it seems to me that there are ways to make Wyndham work for rentals today...as long as your goals are modest . I dont think renting Wyndham reservations will move me into the 1%. but a few extra bucks would be welcome



At one time, it was so lucrative that I was making $5-10k per month simply renting points from owners and re-renting them to other owners.  That is how ridiculously good it was.  Very little work.  Very little risk.  So many people were doing it, Wyndham had no choice but to put an end to it.


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## lprstn (Dec 12, 2011)

I purchased 3 resale points contracts and had them rolled up into a developer purchase which gave me VIP. I had to buy 105K points at the time. All contracts had to be original UDI (or points contracts - not converted weeks.)


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## ronparise (Dec 12, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> But, you don't get extra guest certificates at $99 per reservation for resale points.  And, the express reservation window isn't very good anymore given the change in policy of when the cancelled reservations are released.
> 
> Show me a business case that generates $100k in income using Wyndham.  It will require way too much risk in annual maintenance fees.  Not worth it anymore.
> 
> ...



I agree completely, which is why I say it works (or can work) if your goals are modest...I cant figure out how to scale it up either (without too much risk)   Im working toward a $2000 per month goal plus a free vacation or two each year and think thats very possible...any more than that and i think I have to become a PCC, or at least adopt their business practices...not something Im comfortable doing

Is Kaio's business model buying a timeshare for a nominal amount with current years fees paid and current weeks use available. Then rent that week, and re sell the timeshare. If so...I see the risk of getting stuck with something I cant sell a little too much risk for me.


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## antjmar (Dec 12, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I agree completely, which is why I say it works (or can work) if your goals are modest...I cant figure out how to scale it up either (without too much risk)   Im working toward a $2000 per month goal plus a free vacation or two each year and think thats very possible...any more than that and i think I have to become a PCC, or at least adopt their business practices...not something Im comfortable doing
> 
> Is Kaio's business model buying a timeshare for a nominal amount with current years fees paid and current weeks use available. Then rent that week, and re sell the timeshare. If so...I see the risk of getting stuck with something I cant sell a little too much risk for me.


Ron,
You should be  getting an e-mail  from Wyndham soon saying that the offer they made you (at National Harbor) is still available! It will ask you to call the 800 number in the e-mail to discuss. Maybe you can negotiate the smaller contract  to a more  resonable number and get you Gold VIP that way... Doesnt hurt to ask, I imagine December is a tough month in timeshare sales!


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## chapjim (Dec 12, 2011)

Sandi Bo said:


> I think chapjim's got the right business plan  .
> 
> Wondering if anyone (hint-hint...ron or jim?) has does a cost analysis of the benefits of upgrading to presidential reserve.   Under the same prinicple that once you achieve presidential reserve status, all points are treated as such.



You are making quite a leap.  There is no principle about VIP status that can be extended to Presidential Reserve status and I can't imagine why you would try.

Presidential Reserve and Club Wyndham Plus points are accounted for separately.  The points I bought on eBay have full VIP Platinum privileges, the most valuable of which is the 50% discount for reservations made within 60 days of check-in.  That's just the way it is.

I use the same pricing formula for Presidential units that I use for regular units.  It's hard to compare them because I do bump prices a bit for event reservations (without trying to get greedy) and the event reservations tend to be regular units.  (Bike Week at Daytona is a good example.  Ocean Walk doesn't have Presidential units.)  Presidential units do sell quite well and my sense of things is that I cover the difference in cost.  But, I can't prove it.


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## Cheryl20772 (Dec 12, 2011)

Sandi Bo said:


> Under the same prinicple that once you achieve presidential reserve status, all points are treated as such.


It may not work for Presidential Reserve.  In our Members Directory it states that 





> "Only Regular Use Year or Cancelled Reservation Points associated with your Club Wyndham Plus Presidential Reserve contract may be used for any Presidential Reserve Exclusive Benefits."


It further states in the section about VIP points: 





> "Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."



So, I would conclude from this, that, if you are currently enjoying VIP benefits with your resale points mixed with your VIP points, it probably means that Wyndham hasn't figured out a way to monitor this in their system and that it's liable to be controlled and go away at any time in the future.  Enjoy it while you've got it and maybe don't build a business that depends on having it.


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## chapjim (Dec 13, 2011)

Cheryl20772 said:


> It may not work for Presidential Reserve.  In our Members Directory it states that
> It further states in the section about VIP points:
> 
> So, I would conclude from this, that, if you are currently enjoying VIP benefits with your resale points mixed with your VIP points, it probably means that Wyndham hasn't figured out a way to monitor this in their system and that it's liable to be controlled and go away at any time in the future.  Enjoy it while you've got it and maybe don't build a business that depends on having it.



Clearly, the sequence of purchases makes a difference.  Purchasing resale points does NOT count toward VIP status.  I think everyone understands that.  However, for me anyway, my resale points, having been purchased after I became VIP Platinum, are accorded the privileges of VIP Platinum status.


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## bnoble (Dec 13, 2011)

True.  But, I think Cheryl's point is that, at some point in the future, it is possible that Wyndham could change the rules and exclude resale purchases from VIP benefits, much the way that they currently exclude non-PR points from PR benefits.

It is certainly possible, because Wyndham can change the VIP program in any way at any time.  I'm not sure how likely it is, as it would probably require a wholesale re-writing of their point-tracking IT systems.


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## persia (Dec 13, 2011)

Isn't VIP an attribute of the member, not the points?  And I don't think purchase order has anything to do with VIP.  You become VIP when you acquire 300K developer points.  You could have all sorts of resale points and it makes no difference. They all can be used as VIP pints because you are a VIP.

Wyndham is not likely to change this because, well, would you try to drive away people who have purchased a million developer points?  Besides it brings in fresh fodder for the sales droids via guest certificates...


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## timeos2 (Dec 13, 2011)

persia said:


> Isn't VIP an attribute of the member, not the points?  And I don't think purchase order has anything to do with VIP.  You become VIP when you acquire 300K developer points.  You could have all sorts of resale points and it makes no difference. They all can be used as VIP pints because you are a VIP.
> 
> Wyndham is not likely to change this because, well, would you try to drive away people who have purchased a million developer points?  Besides it brings in fresh fodder for the sales droids via guest certificates...



Why? Because they can & they have have been on a mission for years to devalue resales. It WILL happen just a question of when. Any use of VIP as a basis for ownership / use is a big risk as no benefit is in anyway guaranteed.


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## bnoble (Dec 13, 2011)

> Wyndham is not likely to change this because, well, would you try to drive away people who have purchased a million developer points?


Would I?  No.

Has Wyndham in the past?  Yes.

They made *significant* changes to the VIP program---for example, to guest certificates---a couple of years ago.  People were (and still are) VERY upset.


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## kaio (Dec 13, 2011)

chapjim said:


> Presidential Reserve and Club Wyndham Plus points are accounted for separately.



Chapjim has it right.  Presidential Reserve ownerships are labelled as "*Presidential *points" in the Wyndham system... even cancelled points from these contracts are labelled as "Cancelled *Presidential *Points" and there would be no possibility to add on re-sale *Regular Club Wyndham Plus* points to count towards Presidential Reserve point's benefits/priviledges...  But... Presidential reserve status does transfer on the resale market (however, VIP benefits associated with developer bought Presidential Reserve contracts would not txfr).. and I am not sure about priviledges in the Registry Collection.... But the only way to add available points to an existing Presidential Reserve priviledges (Presidential Hold Units) is to purchase another PR contract.



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Kaio's business model is better. Act as an intermediary for someone else who liquidates timeshares. Those points are free. If you get anything, it's a good deal. Only problem is that model doesn't scale either. Too much work for how much revenue you get despite the fact that it is high margin.



well.. not to say this is _exactly_ my business model... but not too far off BocaBum! ... and yes.. too much work, it is barely worth it/appreciated.... my mission statement tho is based soley to help those looking to rent at an affordable price, and also to at the same time help 3rd party acquaintances liquidate.  I ONLY do this to give normal people good cheap vacations... because I know the right people/companies/corporations in the industry with these resources... Obviously I will not do it forever... but since I have personally taken more than a few cheap vacations with my resources this last year, so I thought I would extend my resources to others. 



			
				ronparise said:
			
		

> Is Kaio's business model buying a timeshare for a nominal amount with current years fees paid and current weeks use available. Then rent that week, and re sell the timeshare. If so...I see the risk of getting stuck with something I cant sell a little too much risk for me.



Nope, my business plan has absolutely no risk and high profit margins for my acquaintances (but I personally, do not benefit in any way) but I do average liquidating around $4-$8k gross profit /month [over the past 8 months] consistently from rentals ).  I no longer have as much personal time as I did before to offer others my resources... but glad I could help 150+ people out in the past 8 months, as this economy is hurting lots of us who need a break away.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 14, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Not me;
> 
> 
> I suppose you could rent presidential reserve suites for more, so I quess the question is;  can you rent them for enough more to make the purchase of a million retail points worthwhile?...I doubt it but stand ready to look at someone elses analysis to show me wrong



I think if you have the right motivated sales person and you have some good PIC properties to bring in - you could get VIP Platinum for the price of VIP Gold.  If you then added several million more points so you could triple book and do some of the other tricks using a combination of APR and 10 month window.   I suspect you could for a minimum number of points rent 2 and 3 BD presidentials which would rent at a premium during the best months or events.  But it would be a lot of work.


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## chapjim (Dec 14, 2011)

persia said:


> Isn't VIP an attribute of the member, not the points?  And I don't think purchase order has anything to do with VIP.  You become VIP when you acquire 300K developer points.  You could have all sorts of resale points and it makes no difference. They all can be used as VIP pints because you are a VIP.
> 
> Wyndham is not likely to change this because, well, would you try to drive away people who have purchased a million developer points?  Besides it brings in fresh fodder for the sales droids via guest certificates...



Purchase order makes a difference in that VIP status cannot be earned simply by purchasing resale points.   You are correct.  One could purchase resale points, then a sufficient number of developer points to attain VIP status, then more resale points.  As someone suggested, the member is VIP and points owned by that member are all treated the same.

Could Wyndham change all that and other things as well?  They've done it before although why Wyndham does things that make ownership less attractive and for some of us, less profitable, is a continuing mystery.


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## Cheryl20772 (Dec 14, 2011)

persia said:


> Isn't VIP an attribute of the member, not the points?  And I don't think purchase order has anything to do with VIP.  You become VIP when you acquire 300K developer points.  You could have all sorts of resale points and it makes no difference. They all can be used as VIP pints because you are a VIP.
> 
> *Wyndham is not likely to change this because, well, would you try to drive away people who have purchased a million developer points?  Besides it brings in fresh fodder for the sales droids via guest certificates*...


Platinum VIP owners (recently as Oct 2008) used to have unlimited guest certificates and some Platinum owners built rental businesses while appreciating that VIP benefit. In fact the sales staff sold Platinum with a hard push of that feature (use half and rent half to defray expenses). Overnight Wyndham decided that they would not have that VIP owner account benefit anymore.  Now they only get 15 guest certificates per million qualified points owned.  

Wyndham could make the same kind of change regarding VIP benefits extended to resale points owned.  They already have the language in the Directory.  They only need to enforce it and it can happen overnight.

I would not try to drive away owners of a million developer points, but Wyndham has in the recent past shown that they don't care at all and are willing to do it with very little notice.

At the same time Wyndham reduced the number of guest certificates, they raised the price for same from $25 up to $99 ($129 if telephone reservation).

If you own VIP Platinum and add a million resale points are you getting that extra 15 guest certificates for the resale points?  If not, you are already not getting full VIP benefits.  The rest of the VIP advantage accorded your resale points can be removed at any time. 

Wyndham cares about their shareholders and not their points owners.  If I understand correctly, the Fairshare Trust VOA Board of Directors is supposed to have 3 or 4 owner members (us) on it and Wyndham has never allowed this to happen.  All Trust board members are Corporate.


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## wowlucky20 (Dec 14, 2011)

*vip status*

imho, vip status is a wyndham scam in which it conveys certain benefits to one group of owners (vip) at the expense of another set of owners.

if i have 1 . m points why shouldnt i enjoy the same benefits as vip members

If whndham wants to reward retards that pay at list price let it come from wyndham, not other members pockets

total scam and would be upheld as illegal if someone sued over this


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## rrlongwell (Dec 14, 2011)

wowlucky20 said:


> imho, vip status is a wyndham scam in which it conveys certain benefits to one group of owners (vip) at the expense of another set of owners.
> 
> if i have 1 . m points why shouldnt i enjoy the same benefits as vip members
> 
> ...



I have not read the lawsuit, but I have seen reference that someone has filed over this issue among probably others.  I have not seen that it is a class action suit.  

I guess I should sign this as a retard. Name calling is rarely a good tactic to convince people to not buy retail.

P.S.  If I remember correctly, I have seen numerious reference that buying retail does not justify the upfront purchase price, if this is true, then the VIP rights do not come out of other member pockets.

P.P.S.  If you have proof that VIP Benifits are a "total scam"  You may want to sue or in the alternative post the proof so anyone else that wanted to would have the proof.  If you have  the proof, there probably would be a lot of attorneys that would take the case contingenticy fee.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 14, 2011)

wowlucky20 said:


> imho, vip status is a wyndham scam in which it conveys certain benefits to one group of owners (vip) at the expense of another set of owners.
> 
> if i have 1 . m points why shouldnt i enjoy the same benefits as vip members
> 
> ...



Even though I would love to have said benefits with my resale points but since they are not deeded benefits and so they are given at wyndham's discretion.


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## chapjim (Dec 15, 2011)

wowlucky20 said:


> imho, vip status is a wyndham scam in which it conveys certain benefits to one group of owners (vip) at the expense of another set of owners.
> 
> if i have 1 . m points why shouldnt i enjoy the same benefits as vip members
> 
> ...



Your opinion is deservedly humble.

VIP status may be a scam but in no way does it come at the expense of other owners.  If I recall correctly, the expense was mine.

The reason you shouldn't enjoy the same benefits is quite simple -- you didn't pay for them.  You paid three or four cents on the dollar?  And you want benefits?

In what way did my benefits come out of your pocket?

Be my guest in filing suit.  Better yet, do it yourself.  After all, you should have the same rights as someone who actually went to law school, studied for and passed the bar exam.

By chance, have you been living in a public park since last summer?  You have a warped sense of entitlement.


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## tschwa2 (Dec 15, 2011)

Not a Wyndham owner but my question is- does Wyndham take your very large purchase amount and set aside a portion in an account marked to pay for upgrades, extra housekeeping, extra transaction fees and any other VIP benefits  to reimburse the HOA's expenses or does it pocket your amount and let the HOA's pay for the expenses based on # of points owned?  If there is no line item on the budgets showing Wyndham reimbursement then all members are indeed supplementing VIP benefits.


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## shorts (Dec 15, 2011)

tschwa2 said:


> Not a Wyndham owner but my question is- does Wyndham take your very large purchase amount and set aside a portion in an account marked to pay for upgrades, extra housekeeping, extra transaction fees and any other VIP benefits  to reimburse the HOA's expenses or does it pocket your amount and let the HOA's pay for the expenses based on # of points owned?  If there is no line item on the budgets showing Wyndham reimbursement then all members are indeed supplementing VIP benefits.



Actually, yes, there is a line item in the VOA budget where SALES reimburses several million $$ a year for VIP benefits. Not sure if it is just an estimated % based on number of VIP members or if there is specific accounting of use but there is reimbursement from the Sales Department.

So VIP benefits are not paid for by other owners or by the HOAs or resorts.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

shorts said:


> Actually, yes, there is a line item in the VOA budget where SALES reimburses several million $$ a year for VIP benefits. Not sure if it is just an estimated % based on number of VIP members or if there is specific accounting of use but there is reimbursement from the Sales Department.
> 
> So VIP benefits are not paid for by other owners or by the HOAs or resorts.



Two seperate issues were raised:

1.  VIP is a scam, if the poster has proof of this he is free to pursue his legal remedies for this.  I am not sure, if he is correct that it is a scam, where he would be an injured party unless he bought from or through Wynhdam.

2.  VIP rights were sold pursuant to at least some of the contracts.  Are the rights under the contract transferable?  Not being an attorney, I do not know.  Wynhdam apparently believe they are not.  The point being made in an earlier post is absolutly correct about the person buying from the developer having as part of the purchase price the right to VIP Priveledges and the right to transfer these rights to family, via will, etc. is accurate.  These are arguably ownership rights to the orginal buyer and to those parties that the VIP rights can be transfered to.  

I have heard it said the the Developer is the one that pays for the VIP rights.


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## antjmar (Dec 15, 2011)

chapjim said:


> By chance, have you been living in a public park since last summer?  You have a warped sense of entitlement.



:rofl:  Thats a good one!

IMO no different then a frerquent flyer getting a free first class  ticket upgrade. He spends a lot with a company therefore gets some free perks.  he shouid be rewarded and so should Wyndham  VIP's!


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## antjmar (Dec 15, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Two seperate issues were raised:
> 2.  VIP rights were sold pursuant to at least some of the contracts.  Are the rights under the contract transferable?  Not being an attorney, I do not know.  Wynhdam apparently believe they are not.  The point being made in an earlier post is absolutly correct about the person buying from the developer having as part of the purchase price the right to VIP Priveledges and the right to transfer these rights to family, via will, etc. is accurate.  These are arguably ownership rights to the orginal buyer and to those parties that the VIP rights can be transfered to.



Im not a lawyer either but ill add my 2 cents! If the VIP perks are part of the contract and they dont transfer I think current VIPS should pursue a class action suit. Its in their best intrest since their contracts would be much more valuable if you also were able to transfer those VIP perks.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

antjmar said:


> Im not a lawyer either but ill add my 2 cents! If the VIP perks are part of the contract and they dont transfer I think current VIPS should pursue a class action suit. Its in their best intrest since their contracts would be much more valuable if you also were able to transfer those VIP perks.



I agree that is a killer to re-sale value.


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## kev5982 (Dec 15, 2011)

So I'm trying to understand this whole VIP thing. I have a million points bought through a developer and have acquired Platinum status. I merged my points with a friend's points and we bought additional points through a developer to obtain the VIP Platinum status. Both names are on the contract.

If I buy additional points do they get treated as the same as the original if my name is the only one on the contract. I would do this if I ever wanted to separate the contracts. If I bought 1,000,000 additional points through resale on a separate contract would these have platinum status?

Sorry for the confusion, I recently married and I'm trying to get my wife platinum status. She is not on the original contract.

Thanks,

kevin


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## persia (Dec 15, 2011)

Not giving VIP to resale is a bit like saying you bought your car through resale therefore we won't honour the warranty.  You didn't pay full price on the car after all, why should you get the warranty?


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> ... Sorry for the confusion, I recently married and I'm trying to get my wife platinum status. She is not on the original contract.



Talk with members services so I do not accidentally mislead you.  If your wife has her own account, just add her or your name to one of the deeds and Wynhdam should merge the accounts if the total number of contracts do not exceed X (I think 14 or 15).  If she does not have a seperate account, add her name to one of your contracts and add her as a owner to the existing account.


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## bnoble (Dec 15, 2011)

Kevin: as I understand it, for different deeds to belong to the same account, they need to be titled identically---same owners, in the same order.  I think you should be able to add your wife to your deeds, and vice versa, combining them, and I would bet Wyndham would even help you do so, because this is a "family transfer", though it would probably cost you transfer costs.

But, yes as the prior poster suggested, talk with Member Services to make sure you do this the right way.


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## persia (Dec 15, 2011)

Kevin,

Resale points do not count towards VIP.  If you separate your points from your friend's points each of you must have 1 million developer points to be platinum VIP on separate contracts.  Any resale points that you own can then be used as VIP points, as per Wyndham's "points are points" policy.

Robert


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## persia (Dec 15, 2011)

In a family transfer, how does Wyndham verify that the person you are transferring ownership to is actually family?

Robert


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

persia said:


> In a family transfer, how does Wyndham verify that the person you are transferring ownership to is actually family?
> 
> Robert



They required documents showing relationship for us.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

bnoble said:


> Kevin: as I understand it, for different deeds to belong to the same account, they need to be titled identically---same owners, in the same order.  I think you should be able to add your wife to your deeds, and vice versa, combining them, and I would bet Wyndham would even help you do so, because this is a "family transfer", though it would probably cost you transfer costs.
> 
> But, yes as the prior poster suggested, talk with Member Services to make sure you do this the right way.



In our cases, all deeds do not need to be titled the same, they just had to be overlapping ownership.


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## kev5982 (Dec 15, 2011)

So I could add my wifes name to my contract and deed so it would pass along to her. My friend would not want my wife on her contract so I would have to check if my wife could be added to the account. 

At some point the contracts will have to split.


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## persia (Dec 15, 2011)

Can you add a non-relative to the contract?  If so the transaction could be done in two steps.

1) Add non-relative to contract
2) remove original owner from contract

Does this work?

Robert


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> So I could add my wifes name to my contract and deed so it would pass along to her. My friend would not want my wife on her contract so I would have to check if my wife could be added to the account.
> 
> At some point the contracts will have to split.



You will need to deal with that when the time comes.  If I am right, and you do not have to have her on all contracts, just add her to the one with your name on it with a right to survivorship (talk with an attorney and member services).


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

persia said:


> Can you add a non-relative to the contract?  If so the transaction could be done in two steps.
> 
> 1) Add non-relative to contract
> 2) remove original owner from contract
> ...



I talked to Wynhdam at one point on a similar issue.  What I was told at that point was a non-relative could be added to a VIP eligable contract if the orginal owner was still alive and on the deed.  if the VIP eligable owner came off the deed, then thoughs points would no longer be VIP eligable.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> So I could add my wifes name to my contract and deed so it would pass along to her. My friend would not want my wife on her contract so I would have to check if my wife could be added to the account.
> 
> At some point the contracts will have to split.



I am not clear how many contracts you own, your friends own, and your wife owns.  If there is only one contract at this point between you and your friend, than you might need to buy a low point value contract from Wynhdam just in your name and your wife's name then add that contract to your account.  Please do check with member's services to make sure they are on board with the specific path you follow.


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## bnoble (Dec 15, 2011)

> At some point the contracts will have to split.


One thing to remember here: if, after the split, either (or both) account(s) no longer qualify for Platinum, eventually Wyndham will catch on and "demote" them.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 15, 2011)

antjmar said:


> Im not a lawyer either but ill add my 2 cents! If the VIP perks are part of the contract and they dont transfer I think current VIPS should pursue a class action suit. Its in their best intrest since their contracts would be much more valuable if you also were able to transfer those VIP perks.



One thing to remember is that VIP benefits are in no way tied to a contract, they are tied to an account and it is not possible to transfer an account. for example if you have 4 developer purchases for 250K each, none of these by themselves have the VIP benefits but the 4 contracts combined give the member number platinum status. that is why currently VIP owners can use VIP benefits on resale points. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 15, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> I am not clear how many contracts you own, your friends own, and your wife owns.  If there is only one contract at this point between you and your friend, than you might need to buy a low point value contract from Wynhdam just in your name and your wife's name then add that contract to your account.  Please do check with member's services to make sure they are on board with the specific path you follow.



All contracts under one account have to be deeded the exact same way. For example if there are already 4 contracts under the account you couldn't just buy a new one with your wife's name on it and then she is on the account. That deed would be put into it's own member number. You would have to get all 4 contracts redeeded to get this done. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 15, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> So I could add my wifes name to my contract and deed so it would pass along to her. My friend would not want my wife on her contract so I would have to check if my wife could be added to the account.
> 
> At some point the contracts will have to split.



You can deed them in your will to pass on without having her on title. Contracts can be willed to immediate family members and keep developer status. 

Jason


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## am1 (Dec 15, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> All contracts under one account have to be deeded the exact same way. For example if there are already 4 contracts under the account you couldn't just buy a new one with your wife's name on it and then she is on the account. That deed would be put into it's own member number. You would have to get all 4 contracts redeeded to get this done.
> 
> Jason



I will disagree.  Although my situation is not exactly the same.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 15, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> All contracts under one account have to be deeded the exact same way. For example if there are already 4 contracts under the account you couldn't just buy a new one with your wife's name on it and then she is on the account. That deed would be put into it's own member number. You would have to get all 4 contracts redeeded to get this done.
> 
> Jason



Simply not true.  However, this is not worth the debate.  The best way to deal with it is for the Orginal Poster to just call Member Services and Title (Member Services, I believe handles the VIP aspect, Title Services handles the titling part.


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## kev5982 (Dec 15, 2011)

:whoopie: Thank you to everyone for all the help, I realize that the platinum will not be maintained if I break the original contracts.  I am just trying to get my wife's name on the contract.  I am pretty sure I have to put it into a trust, but I will contact member services and let you know.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 16, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Simply not true.  However, this is not worth the debate.  The best way to deal with it is for the Orginal Poster to just call Member Services and Title (Member Services, I believe handles the VIP aspect, Title Services handles the titling part.



This is what I was told from title services. The person I was talking to very well could have been wrong. It's not like a wyndham rep has ever said something incorrect or not know their own programs. :hysterical: 

Jason


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## rrlongwell (Dec 16, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> This is what I was told from title services. The person I was talking to very well could have been wrong. It's not like a wyndham rep has ever said something incorrect or not know their own programs. :hysterical:
> 
> Jason



What you are observing is true.  Different people give different answers at Wynhdam.  My account  has five deeds in it under a single enity name, all the same.  One deed in it with three names.  One deed with two names.

The five deeds entry has four authorized users/owners on it (LLC).  My wife and I are on one deed.  My wife, my son, and I are on one deed.

I did the account configuration the way it was on the advise of Title and Owner Relations (Member Services).

Just for your info, it is also possable to tie VIP to a new purchase contract, I did that on two different contracts.


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## persia (Dec 16, 2011)

I've gotten the transfer resale to a new contract with purchase of additional points offer twice.  Both times I didn't take them up on it.  It's hard to enter into a mortgage for thousands of dollars on property you know is worthless on resale.

I guess I'm dropping my dreams of becoming VIP and I'll just enjoy using the points the way I currently do.

Robert



rrlongwell said:


> What you are observing is true.  Different people give different answers at Wynhdam.  My account  has five deeds in it under a single enity name, all the same.  One deed in it with three names.  One deed with two names.
> 
> The five deeds entry has four authorized users/owners on it (LLC).  My wife and I are on one deed.  My wife, my son, and I are on one deed.
> 
> ...


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## timeos2 (Dec 16, 2011)

*VIP as sold today a total ripoff & waste of good dollars*



persia said:


> I've gotten the transfer resale to a new contract with purchase of additional points offer twice.  Both times I didn't take them up on it.  It's hard to enter into a mortgage for thousands of dollars on property you know is worthless on resale.
> 
> I guess I'm dropping my dreams of becoming VIP and I'll just enjoy using the points the way I currently do.
> 
> Robert



 Best choice both economically and functionally. You aren't spending far too many immediately worthless dollars on developer points, the extra annual fees & possible SA's on those and avoiding the very real risk that whatever small VIP benefit you hope to gain will be the next one changed or eliminated by Wyndham.  Buy all the points you want for little or nothing, pay just the fee on those you'll actually be likely to use and give it away when the day comes you don't want it anymore without bemoaning the loss of tens of thousands of wasted dollars on developer points. 

As pointed out many times in these recurring threads the minimal VIP perks are not guaranteed and not transferable thus making them little to no value except as a sales weasel selling point.  Paying for that makes no sense when it is next to impossible to get even equal value out and more likely will result in a big loss.  Spending thousands or even tens of thousands (as crazy as it sounds people DO IT!) to "avoid" a $39 - $99 occasional fee (which can often be minimized or avoided with a bit of planning) makes absolutely no sense. 

It amazes me that Wyndham and their sales misrepresentatives have been able to convince so many otherwise seemingly smart owners that paying BIG money to to become VIP is a value.  Nothing could be further from the truth except possibly anything stated by a Wastegate sales weasel.    

Enjoy the bargain you have with resale Wyndham points and never worry about VIP again. You'll  sleep much better and be richer for it.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok VIP Benefits to 500,000 points(These are the only ones i personally know of, that doesn't mean this is all)

*35% off reservations booked within 60 days*...this means with your MF your getting about 10 days for the price of 7

*Unit Size Upgrade within 45 days of check in*...this is based on availability(rarely available), When it is Available, it allows you to use less points for a larger room, allows you to use the MF of a 1br(77k+ points) for a 2br (154k+ points) almost doubles the amount of weeks you can get for the same MF's...most of the time this isnt available...so no real value

*TEN Complimentary Guest Certificates*....This is mainly a benefit to those that rent their reservations, or who want to share their vacations with friends/family not on the deed...you only get one if your not VIP, If you run out they cost $99 for this Could potentially save you $891...if you use them..for most people this doesn't save much

*ONE 11 Month Advance Reservations at NON-Owner resorts*...Normal Advance Reservations for the resort YOU own is 13 months...for Non-Owners is 9 months...This gives you a boost over other non-owners for those places and times that book up REALLY fast...

*Request Specific Unit Number when making Reservations*....GREAT Benefit if you like a certain view or location at a certain resort...dozens of people here will tell you how important Ocean front is vs Garden or Parking Lot View

*FREE Reservation Transactions*....for 500k points, you get about 6 reservations a year...i don't know that you would need more then 6(short stays, long weekend stays?)...BUT if you did this saves you about $30

*Unlimited Housekeeping Credits*....This is really only important if you book short stays..as you already get about 500 with 500k points...But it could come in handy and if you need more Housekeeping credits this'll save you about $2.25 per

*Early Check in at 2pm*...If you've ever been to Bonnet Creek during a school break you know how annoying it is waiting till 4pm with everyone else...This is nice

*Mid-Week Cleaning*....I like this, as for some reason i tend to not have enough towels...and its nice them taking out the garbage instead of me...Thats just me though

Any there are more and more....But all of them combined, definately HAVE value


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## rrlongwell (Dec 16, 2011)

[QUOTE/QUOTE]

The above was a great summary.  Only the most important one was missed, the free morning paper, if the resort honors this.  Welcome back.  Do you still like Williamsburg.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 16, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> [QUOTE/QUOTE]
> 
> The above was a great summary.  Only the most important one was missed, the free morning paper, if the resort honors this.



Its the Wall Street Journal, Right? Meh, i don't know why they do that, i'd MUCH rather read a local paper, even if the news isn't as professional...i can read the Wall Street Journal at home anytime


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## rrlongwell (Dec 16, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Its the Wall Street Journal, Right? Meh, i don't know why they do that, i'd MUCH rather read a local paper, even if the news isn't as professional...i can read the Wall Street Journal at home anytime



Actually not so good as the Wall Street Journel, the USA Today, local papers on weekends.  We mostly go on Friday and Saturday nights.  If you were the CEO of USA Today, you might think was impressive.


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## ronparise (Dec 16, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Its the Wall Street Journal, Right? Meh, i don't know why they do that, i'd MUCH rather read a local paper, even if the news isn't as professional...i can read the Wall Street Journal at home anytime



Damn...since you were last active here you have become the Wyndham expert...I agree with you summary of the VIP benefits. Although the question is never...are these benefits desireable? I think we all agree they are. The bigger question is...Are they worth the money you pay?  The answer is probably not

The upgrades are always available if you play the game some VIP owners play. They  reserve a studio  and a 3 bedroom 10-13 months out. Then in the discount/upgrade window; cancel them both, and immediately rebook the studio and upgrade to the three bedroom.  Gold VIPs end up getting,  the 3 bedroom at 65% of the studio prices...(Platinum at 50%)


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## timeos2 (Dec 16, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Damn...since you were last active here you have become the Wyndham expert...I agree with you summary of the VIP benefits. Although the question is never...are these benefits desireable? I think we all agree they are. The bigger question is...Are they worth the money you pay?  The answer is probably not
> 
> The upgrades are always available if you play the game some VIP owners play. They  reserve a studio  and a 3 bedroom 10-13 months out. Then in the discount/upgrade window; cancel them both, and immediately rebook the studio and upgrade to the three bedroom.  Gold VIPs end up getting,  the 3 bedroom at 65% of the studio prices...(Platinum at 50%)



Ron - that is the point. At no cost those can be a fair thing to have (not great as any reservation that is still around at 6 days isn't a deal as it is really unwanted. It is easy to rent it at 1/3 of the cost of the fees - no VIP or even ownership required!  The rest are either a few bucks and/or obtained for free by any guest that bothers to ask in most cases. 

But it isn't free so THAT"S why it is worthless.  You never get what it costs to obtain (now). Doesn't apply to those that have it from the days when resale qualified.  But they can't sell it so it still has no value.  Obsessing over it is playing the game the weasels want.


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## chapjim (Dec 16, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ok VIP Benefits to 500,000 points(These are the only ones i personally know of, that doesn't mean this is all)
> 
> *35% off reservations booked within 60 days*...this means with your MF your getting about 10 days for the price of 7
> 
> ...



A couple of quibbles to an otherwise great summary.  Plus, I'll add comments about VIP Platinum.

VIP Platinum gets a 50% discount within 60 days.  

One of the reasons you have trouble getting upgrades 45 days before check-in is that VIP Platinum owners can do it 60 days before check-in.  My experience with upgrades is pretty good for off season weeks, next to non-existent for popular weeks.  I've upgraded prime weeks a few times which I attribute to the blind squirrel phenomenon.  Now and then you can score an upgrade along with the 50% discount but again this is only likely for off-prime weeks.

Guest Certificates:  VIP Platinum gets 15/million points, sufficient unless you are doing a lot of weekend reservations.  To run out, you would need to have an average point costs less than 67K per reservation.

ARP, etc.:  Non-owners can do standard reservations 10 months before check-in.

Specific Unit Number:  This will be honored if the owner is the occupant.  It may or not be honored if a guest is an occupant.  Depends on the resort.  My bad experiences have been at Ocean Walk -- guest paid for a specific ocean front unit, was assigned a city view unit at check-in.  I like the points table at Ocean Boulevard (Myrtle Beach) -- upper/lower floor, ocean front/view.  There you may not get a specific unit but you will get what you pay for.  Ocean Walk should consider this kind of scheme.

Housekeeping credits:  I've never paid any attention to them.  I'd have to look it up.  Maybe VIP Platinum is unlimited.

Early check-in:  Concur this can be nice although we've been places that said, "We don't do that here."  There's a string somewhere on TUG with more details.  We don't get too many places that early anyway.

Mid-week cleaning:  A mid-week "tidy" is nice for the reasons you say.

Newspaper:  As someone said, it is the "comic book" paper (USA Today) during the week, a local paper on weekends.  Actual delivery can be spotty or maybe the neighbors are filching our paper.

Add Unlimited Free Reservation Transactions: For me, this is important.  I make a lot of reservations, cancel a lot of unsold reservations at the 15 day point, cancel a lot of reservations to free up points for something a customer wants, and I rebook virtually every reservation at the 60 day point.

There is some perk having to do with Exchanges.  I use all 3 million points and haven't exchanged Wyndham points in years so I don't know how this works.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 16, 2011)

[QUOTE/QUOTE]

I have no significant trouble getting VIP Discounts on points year around.  The way I do it is we go to 4 or 5 resorts close to us for weekend stays and will go to the ones that have the availability.  Upgrades are frequent at these locations.  I do not remember having to use a full rate for points.


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## chapjim (Dec 16, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> [QUOTE/QUOTE]
> 
> I have no significant trouble getting VIP Discounts on points year around.  The way I do it is we go to 4 or 5 resorts close to us for weekend stays and will go to the ones that have the availability.  Upgrades are frequent at these locations.  I do not remember having to use a full rate for points.



Nor do I have trouble with VIP discounts.  I get a 50% discount on almost every reservation I make because I rebook at 60 days before check-in. I have a lot of trouble getting upgrades during popular weeks.  It's a matter of luck -- being first with a reservation request after a cancellation hits.

I have 37 active reservations with Wyndham at the moment.  Nine are within the 60 day window.  All have been rebooked at 50% discount.  Two have actually been upgraded.  The other seven are for New Year's Eve or the BCS Championship in New Orleans.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 16, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ok VIP Benefits to 500,000 points(These are the only ones i personally know of, that doesn't mean this is all)
> 
> *35% off reservations booked within 60 days*...this means with your MF your getting about 10 days for the price of 7
> 
> ...



The newspaper is nice - but I don't always read it.

The VIP benefit I wish thy had was some transfer over to RCI or some reduction in trading fee.


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## massvacationer (Dec 17, 2011)

chapjim said:


> Nor do I have trouble with VIP discounts.  I get a 50% discount on almost every reservation I make because I rebook at 60 days before check-in. I have a lot of trouble getting upgrades during popular weeks.  It's a matter of luck -- being first with a reservation request after a cancellation hits.
> 
> I have 37 active reservations with Wyndham at the moment.  Nine are within the 60 day window.  All have been rebooked at 50% discount.  Two have actually been upgraded.  The other seven are for New Year's Eve or the BCS Championship in New Orleans.



Just to do a little quick math, if you can get 50 % discount on all reservations, that allows you to essentially stretch 3 million points to 6 million points.  This could represent maintenance-fee savings of approximately $12,000 to $15,000 per year.......it seems like one could make a pretty good financial case for VIP platinum ownership, if the purchase price is reasonable (via PIC - or a trade-in/wash of resale points with smallish retail purchase).......I know that there is a lot of risk, time and work involved in renting reservations, so this is not easy. And there is also risk with Wyndham changing the rules in the future.  But, VIP Plat does look attractive with this scenario.


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## ronparise (Dec 17, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> Just to do a little quick math, if you can get 50 % discount on all reservations, that allows you to essentially stretch 3 million points to 6 million points.  This could represent maintenance-fee savings of approximately $12,000 to $15,000 per year.......it seems like one could make a pretty good financial case for VIP platinum ownership, if the purchase price is reasonable (via PIC - or a trade-in/wash of resale points with smallish retail purchase).......I know that there is a lot of risk, time and work involved in renting reservations, so this is not easy. And there is also risk with Wyndham changing the rules in the future.  But, VIP Plat does look attractive with this scenario.



I agree and at the very least it gives me something to talk to the salespeople  about when Im attending an "owner update"


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## kev5982 (Dec 17, 2011)

I am a platinum owner with a million points and used 122 vacation days this past year. I received a lot of upgrades and there is a lot of availability with in the 60 day window. How many days of vacation would I get if I bought resale with no VIP.

Kevin


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## chapjim (Dec 17, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> I am a platinum owner with a million points and used 122 vacation days this past year. I received a lot of upgrades and there is a lot of availability with in the 60 day window. How many days of vacation would I get if I bought resale with no VIP.
> 
> Kevin



I keep my books by check-in date so it's hard to tell how many points I actually used by Wyndham's Use Year.

I own just under 3 million points (2,943,500).  I had 2,954,300 points worth of reservations with check-in dates in calendar year 2011.  I have 4,944,000 worth of reservations with check-in dates in calendar year 2012.  The check-in date for the latest reservation is July 15, 2012.  4,623,200 of the 2012 reservations still have to be rebooked so I'll recover 2.3 million points to use later.

I didn't start rebooking until early 2011 so it appears the points recovered from rebooking were primarily used on reservations in 2012.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 17, 2011)

kev5982 said:


> I am a platinum owner with a million points and used 122 vacation days this past year. I received a lot of upgrades and there is a lot of availability with in the 60 day window. How many days of vacation would I get if I bought resale with no VIP.
> 
> Kevin



I'd say its really not that simple, it depends on where you stay'd and what size rooms you got...but if you use an average of 154,000 points a week, which isn't an accurate average with Wyndham....you would have gotten 6 1/2 weeks or 33 days


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## timeos2 (Dec 17, 2011)

*This idea is not for the typical user / owner*



massvacationer said:


> Just to do a little quick math, if you can get 50 % discount on all reservations, that allows you to essentially stretch 3 million points to 6 million points.  This could represent maintenance-fee savings of approximately $12,000 to $15,000 per year.......it seems like one could make a pretty good financial case for VIP platinum ownership, if the purchase price is reasonable (via PIC - or a trade-in/wash of resale points with smallish retail purchase).......I know that there is a lot of risk, time and work involved in renting reservations, so this is not easy. And there is also risk with Wyndham changing the rules in the future.  But, VIP Plat does look attractive with this scenario.



Lets get the unavoidable annual fees for 3 million points.  Once that number is added in the $15K is a drop in a very large bucket. And the $15K assumes successful rental of a majority of those points. Not easy or likely anymore. I've had Superbowl weeks at a prime resort less than a mile away go unrented (made for a great week for me but I didn't get any income), so no matter what you may be able to get there is no guarantee of rental occurring. And the fees are due no matter what. 

And let us not forget the $50,000+ in upfront purchase costs it would take to even get VIP now.  It would be at least a decade (maybe two or more) simply to recover in future dollars the REAL money you have to lay out NOW plus those annual amounts hanging over your bank account. 

It makes a great discussion and for a few diehards it can make a few bucks while risking tens of thousands. But for the average owner / buyer paying the going rate today to be "VIP" makes no sense at all.  None. You may see it differently. If so best of luck to you if you actually buy in. You'll need it. And in the end I'll bet you'll regret the choice rather than feel it was a good financial move.


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## kev5982 (Dec 17, 2011)

I agree it was not a great financial move. I purchased 154,000 to start and then added another one before merging with a friend who had done the same. We had to purchase again to do the merge, something I would not do again, but slowly I try to recover the money and enjoy the vacations. 

My MF's are low as of today. For 2012 the fees will be $3900. So I am able to pay the fees and enjoy the vacations and make some money to vacation on. 

When I do rent its not for a lot, usually $100/night. I have made lots of people happy so they can vacation fairly cheap.

I was asked by a friend if they purchased 1,000,000 resale points would they be able to enjoy what I do from my platinum ownership. If they purchased at Bonnet Creek, the fees would be $5000 a year, so they would have to recover that before they could enjoy their own vacations.

To me it doesn't make sense to purchase resale. If I were to do it all over again, I would rent off the wonderful people on this site. I didn't know of this site before I purchased my first timeshare. I went to Disney and just wanted some free disney tickets, so I purchased a timeshare.

Kevin


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## rrlongwell (Dec 17, 2011)

chapjim said:


> ... I didn't start rebooking until early 2011 so it appears the points recovered from rebooking were primarily used on reservations in 2012.



You must have multiple contracts with different use years.  What caught up with you appears to be booking then cancelling with the cancelled points going to further out use year than they orginally were in.  Current use year points will be used by the computer prior to the cancelled ones unless you call reservations on the same day of booking and have them use the cancelled points instead of the regular use year points.


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## Timeshare Von (Dec 17, 2011)

One benefit of adding your spouse to your contract is so that they will not be considered a "guest" should they be the one using the timeshare unit w/o you.  We had that harsh reality check recently when my DH wanted to take a friend to a timeshare using our UDI contract points.  I was informed that for me to make a reservation and for him to use it, it would need to be in his name and since he's not on the contract, I'd have to buy a g/c for him too.

What nonsense.  I still haven't taken care of doing the paperwork (they said I would need to have some sort of legal, notarized documentation to accomplish adding him to the contract . . . which btw has no balance due on it).


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## chapjim (Dec 17, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> You must have multiple contracts with different use years.  What caught up with you appears to be booking then cancelling with the cancelled points going to further out use year than they orginally were in.  Current use year points will be used by the computer prior to the cancelled ones unless you call reservations on the same day of booking and have them use the cancelled points instead of the regular use year points.



You're right -- three different use years.  It is impossible to keep up with the different use years.

However, if there are cancelled and regular points that could both pay for a reservation, I'm pretty sure the cancelled points are used first.  It probably doesn't matter because I have been in the situation where all I have is cancelled points.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 17, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> It makes a great discussion and for a few diehards it can make a few bucks while risking tens of thousands. But for the average owner / buyer paying the going rate today to be "VIP" makes no sense at all.  None. You may see it differently. If so best of luck to you if you actually buy in. You'll need it. And in the end I'll bet you'll regret the choice rather than feel it was a good financial move.



I left this discussion and did a bit of math comparing the points I own (more than half are resale, the other half are developer) - I am VIP Platinum, my odd and even years are different - 

I had about 850K in points in 2011 (1.2 in even years) - so how did I use them

64 nights in Wyndham properties 
40 Reservations
24 separate trips

Now if I was not VIP I would have only gotten about half those nights (as almost all my points were done at 50%  

My MF is about $5,000 so 64 nights results in a per night stay of $78, If I did not have VIP - the per night would be $156.  

This is a mixture of Studio, 1br, 2br (some from upgrade some not) - all of this I'm going to leave out as figuring out the value is too hard.

So if I figure an average daily rate of $150 a night to stay at a Wyndham (and this is a number I'm making up).  Then my VIP saved me $72 a night or $4608

Now Reservations - as you see I make a lot of them - 

Since I make some online and some over the phone I'll use the average of $45.  

So if I did not have VIP I would have 11 reservations - So that leaves me 29 reservations at $45 = $1305

Housekeeping is important as I do lots of 1 night stays.  So for this I'll use 60 points on average since again it is too tedious to figure it out exactly - so with my points that would cover about 14 stays - leaving 10 more stays  so 10X60X2.25 = $1350

So from where I sit my VIP saved me about $7260+/- a few hundred.  This is above my MF - So yes VIP is expensive and even at this savings will take me 6 or 7 years to pay off the Developers side - however, I may purchase more off the secondary market - which could make my travel dollar go further - or I might do a rental or two.

So for me VIP makes sense - but for many it would not.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 17, 2011)

some how the post posted twice


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## rrlongwell (Dec 17, 2011)

Regardinig the cancelled points issue:  No, I already ran into this the hard way.  Regualar use year points go first.  In your case, this would affect 2013 not 2012 since 2012 are already cancelled points.

Regarding the financial aspect and payback periods for high users or any others for that matter, each case is different and comes up with different math.  The subjective dollar value is up to the indivual doing the analysis and placing a dollar amount on it.  Additionally, as has been observed from time to time, the starting point of the account and when the developer points were bought comes into play.  One Sales Manager observed one time that Wyndham was going to a incremental sales stratagy for selling to existing owners.  An incremental sale towards the final goal (Plantium was what was being referred to) was the method being pursued.  To the extent this makes since, depends on how many older developer points are already in the account and the math going to the future.  Not the money already spent, since it is gone.


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## vckempson (Dec 17, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> Housekeeping is important as I do lots of 1 night stays. .



I thought two night stays were the absolute minumum for all reservations?


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## scootr5 (Dec 17, 2011)

vckempson said:


> I thought two night stays were the absolute minumum for all reservations?



Not within the express window - you can also search for one night.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 17, 2011)

vckempson said:


> I thought two night stays were the absolute minumum for all reservations?



No, I have gotten one night stays before, they will usually start this on units under 60 days.  Same with three night to two night stays.  Two nights have shown up as unavailable when three nights were available.  The two night stay will then show up latter, you can even sometimes get a upgrade.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 17, 2011)

It is also possible to book 2 days of a three day - that breaks up the three day - leaving a single day - then you can book the 1 day and cancel the two day. Just learned this trick - VERY helpful for closer in off peak booking - but I think it can be used for far out booking too....


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 18, 2011)

I've seen "interesting" behavior on the cancelled points.  I canceled a reservation and they showed up in use year 2012, ending 12-31-2011.  I don't have any contracts expiring on that date, they are all 3-31-2012. That's where the points should I gone.  I booked a new reservation in 1st quarter 2012 and then cancelled it.  Now my points are back in cancelled expiring 3-31-2012 where they belong.


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## bnoble (Dec 18, 2011)

> I thought two night stays were the absolute minumum for all reservations?


The only way around this is if one night is "orphaned" by reservations for the same inventory around it---then that single night can be booked by itself.


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## am1 (Dec 18, 2011)

So it sounds like others think VIP Platinum can still be worth the purchase price. It all depends how one will vacation. 

I would advise people to do their own numbers and plan for the purchase.  There will be other offers will come on the next trip if you are not comfortable.  I would say never finance a timeshare.  

Now just think of how easy it is to sell VIP of any level to owners who have already purchased retail and have no idea about a resale market.  

This is why I think VIP benefits are not going anywhere.  

To me its nice not having to worry about hk and transaction costs.  Otherwise I would have to plan my booking days.


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2011)

am1 said:


> So it sounds like others think VIP Platinum can still be worth the purchase price. It all depends how one will vacation.



Worth the purchase price? I have to differ on that. Those 60 days or less reservations are regularly available to rent for $199 - $400. No purchase of any type required. No annual fees. No Developer ripoff pricing. Nothing to have to dispose of when you're finished with it. All perks available for the asking. Average cost per night - $ 50 - $75. No amount of VIP discounts / perks or any type of ownership - even resale - produce numbers and ease of use like that. 

Unfortunately the reality is that owning the flexible and otherwise valuable Wyndham Points product now makes virtually no sense. Adding in the outrageous cost of VIP by Developer purchase - the ONLY way to get it today - and the resulting loss of thousands when you are ready to sell give it away makes even less sense than it did in the past.  

Let those who got roped into VIP or even simple points ownership, or just RCI, supply you with virtually any resort / view/ dates you desire in the Wyndham system for pennies not only on the ownership dollar but pennies on just the annual fees!  You get the use and no long term commitment. THAT'S value - no VIP required!


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## rrlongwell (Dec 18, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> ... Those 60 days or less reservations are regularly available to rent for $199 - $400 ... Average cost per night - $ 50 - $75 ...



Not sure the price ranges are reliable.  I counted 5 weeks on Tugs Market place under the Rental Section that were within this range.  The vast vast majority were significantly over this.  I do agree that $50 to $75 per night in the non-peak periods are possable at a number of Wynhdam Resorts if you are VIP Platinum.


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## am1 (Dec 18, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Worth the purchase price? I have to differ on that. Those 60 days or less reservations are regularly available to rent for $199 - $400. No purchase of any type required. No annual fees. No Developer ripoff pricing. Nothing to have to dispose of when you're finished with it. All perks available for the asking. Average cost per night - $ 50 - $75. No amount of VIP discounts / perks or any type of ownership - even resale - produce numbers and ease of use like that.
> 
> Unfortunately the reality is that owning the flexible and otherwise valuable Wyndham Points product now makes virtually no sense. Adding in the outrageous cost of VIP by Developer purchase - the ONLY way to get it today - and the resulting loss of thousands when you are ready to sell give it away makes even less sense than it did in the past.
> 
> Let those who got roped into VIP or even simple points ownership, or just RCI, supply you with virtually any resort / view/ dates you desire in the Wyndham system for pennies not only on the ownership dollar but pennies on just the annual fees!  You get the use and no long term commitment. THAT'S value - no VIP required!



Yes renting can be an even better way to vacation.  A lot more flexibility with no upfront cost.  Ebay is a great place to look for Wyndham reservations.


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Not sure the price ranges are reliable.  I counted 5 weeks on Tugs Market place under the Rental Section that were within this range.  The vast vast majority were significantly over this.  I do agree that $50 to $75 per night in the non-peak periods are possable at a number of Wynhdam Resorts if you are VIP Platinum.



We were happy Wyndham owners for over 15 years & found the system to be a great value, easy to use & a buy at resale prices. But then we saw even the resale value erode thanks to Wyndham's actions and realized that it wasn't going to go in the other direction anytime in the foreseeable future. So we sold before the value sank to zero.  Just a lucky guess that things were on a further slide.

Since then we have stayed at more Wyndhams - in the times / resorts we wanted - by rentals. We have found that even a 2-3 day stay makes sense with rentals SO easily available & inexpensive that two days in a small hotel room costs more than a WEEK of Wyndham rental!  Our average cost per night is $27.50 in 7 stays.  There is no way to come close to that number VIP, owner, resale, whatever.  Remember asking price advertised is not the final rental rate. Just ask - you may be shocked how low people will go simply not to lose the time entirely.  And the RCI rentals are a goldmine of cheap Wyndhams & Worldmarks - units that as an owner you often can't even get!  

I had been a long time supporter of Wyndham as one of the great bargains in all of timeshare. Now I still believe in Wyndham as an incredible value but not by owning - not even resale and certainly not byt the costly VIP route.  Take advantage of the many rentals & enjoy incredible value and no ownership issues whatsoever.  Now THAT is the greatest deal in timeshare.  

Those million points users offer an incredible value to renters. Take them up on it! Don't waste your time or money trying to beat Wyndham or VIP (you'll never win) and just enjoy the fruits of those efforts from others taking the risks and paying the costs.  No need for you to be obligated whatsoever anymore.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 18, 2011)

I wonder if those that are anti Wyndham VIP are also against recertifying for Sheraton Elite status??


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## massvacationer (Dec 18, 2011)

*owning makes sense for me*

I agree that renting can makes sense for many people.   But, not for folks like me.

In my family's situation, the majority of our reservations are for prime ski and summer long-weekends.  I need to be able to check on-line availability at ten months and also for cancellations at 15 days (and other times).  I almost never make shoulder or off-season reservations, where discounts apply.  I also cancel about half of those hard-to-find reservations, due to family and work conflicts that arise.  So, I need control and the ability to easily check availability and cancel to cancel easily.   I don't think I would make a good renter for these reasons.  

I did not pay big bucks for our deeds, own the correct number for our needs, and my maintenance fees are reasonable.   And, I like the vacation budgeting that the monthly of paying monthly maint fees.  I am pretty happy owner.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 18, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Worth the purchase price? I have to differ on that. Those 60 days or less reservations are regularly available to rent for $199 - $400. No purchase of any type required. No annual fees. No Developer ripoff pricing. Nothing to have to dispose of when you're finished with it. All perks available for the asking. Average cost per night - $ 50 - $75. No amount of VIP discounts / perks or any type of ownership - even resale - produce numbers and ease of use like that.



So I thought I would put this to the test - I have three weeks worth of rental at Wyndham Canterbury (mostly in 1 bdroom - but about two of the weekends have been upgraded to 2 bdroom presidental) - this is for Mid January.

On RCI today those one bedrooms are renting for $1680 or about $240 a night - I got them for 150K in points - which is about $300 to me in terms of a percentage of my MF)  Without VIP I would have paid $1250 as a percentage of MF.

So with VIP I saved $950 X 3 weeks = $2850
Renting on RCI would have cost me = $5040
The three weeks actually cost me $900

I also compared the trip I have to to Kona end of Dec. First part of January - which is renting on RCI for $1950 (2 bdroom) or $279 a night.  I rented 4 weeks worth of space - at 115K or about $230 per week to me in MF - Without VIP I would have paid $924 in MF

So with VIP I saved $694 X 4 Weeks = $2774
Renting RCI would have cost me = $7800
The four weeks actually cost me = $920

This is not taking account any savings in terms of House Keeping or Reservations.

So I again the value of VIP seems to depend on how you travel and what you are looking for.


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## am1 (Dec 18, 2011)

How is your costs basis only $2/1000 points?
 That is very low mfs.


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 18, 2011)

I think that paying Wyndham its exhorbitant fees to get to Gold or Platinum VIP is no longer a good idea.   It was a good idea about 5 years ago.  However, given how anti-renter Wyndham has become, it's too big of a risk of capital to do it now.

Instead, the much better idea would be to make a deal with several current Gold and Platinum VIPs who will get you the inventory you need at the price you need to make a profit and then mark it up.  This gives you more coordination and trust requirements, but it eliminates capital risk.  In addition, you give up some of the profit, but the business case is much more positive.

The last thing you want to do in this market is to be the high cost provider by having to amortize that upfront capital cost over your next 10 years of rentals when other owners have already worked down that capital investment and got their money out with a nice return.


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## ronparise (Dec 18, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> So I thought I would put this to the test - I have three weeks worth of rental at Wyndham Canterbury (mostly in 1 bdroom - but about two of the weekends have been upgraded to 2 bdroom presidental) - this is for Mid January.
> 
> On RCI today those one bedrooms are renting for $1680 or about $240 a night - I got them for 150K in points - which is about $300 to me in terms of a percentage of my MF)  Without VIP I would have paid $1250 as a percentage of MF.
> 
> ...





no one says there is no value to Platinum VIP...There is...The question is how much value? and is worth what you have to pay for a retail purchase? (about $150000) ...Thats tough to justify


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## scootr5 (Dec 18, 2011)

am1 said:


> How is your costs basis only $2/1000 points?
> That is very low mfs.



I'm guessing that must be with the 50% discount, so really about $4/K.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 18, 2011)

There could be some 3bdr PICs in there, too.


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think that paying Wyndham its exhorbitant fees to get to Gold or Platinum VIP is no longer a good idea.   It was a good idea about 5 years ago.  However, given how anti-renter Wyndham has become, it's too big of a risk of capital to do it now.
> 
> Instead, the much better idea would be to make a deal with several current Gold and Platinum VIPs who will get you the inventory you need at the price you need to make a profit and then mark it up.  This gives you more coordination and trust requirements, but it eliminates capital risk.  In addition, you give up some of the profit, but the business case is much more positive.
> 
> The last thing you want to do in this market is to be the high cost provider by having to amortize that upfront capital cost over your next 10 years of rentals when other owners have already worked down that capital investment and got their money out with a nice return.



Boca gets it. There is a chance an existing member - VIP or not - can make use of an existing ownership to get a great deal. There is little reason to buy today but if you do it makes sense only if you buy (take for free) resale - paying Developer prices for VIP as a NEW or UPGRADE buyer simply does not make any financial sense. 

For those that already are in USE IT!  For those looking to take part # 1 choice is rent - #2 an inexpensive to free resale is the best ticket. Thinking like sales wants you to that VIP is a value TO BUY NOW is falling into the trap & you'll regret that forever.  

Advising any new comer to even think about millions of points and/or VIP is BAD advice.  Very bad.  This is an advice forum after all so lets not send the wrong message to inexperienced potential Wyndham buyers. 

NEVER BUY RETAIL WYNDHAM is a reliable bit of advice you'll never regret taking.


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## rrlongwell (Dec 18, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> ... On RCI today those one bedrooms are renting for $1680 or about $240 a night - I got them for 150K in points - which is about $300 to me in terms of a percentage of my MF)  Without VIP I would have paid $1250 as a percentage of MF.
> 
> So with VIP I saved $950 X 3 weeks = $2850
> Renting on RCI would have cost me = $5040
> ...



Not sure I followed your math.  I checked the Northeast Windhams, Bonnett Creek, Westwinds, Govenor's Green, and Old Town Alexandria on a spot check for February 10, 2012.  This places Winter Resorts and Summer Resorts both in the list.

2-10-2012
                             Nights   Unit Type                  Points         Discount points     
Inn on the Harbor    7      No availability
Long Warf                  7      3 Bedroom Delux     126,000      47,250    Upgrade effect included
Inn on Long Warf     7       1 Bedroom Suite         56,000      28,000
Bently Brook             7       No availability
Bay Voyage               7       1 Bedroom Suite        56,000        28,000
Newport Onshore    7      2 Bedroom                 77,000         38,500
Smuggler’ Notch       7      2 Bedroom Deluxe   224,000  91,000  Upgraded effect included
Newport Overlook   7      No availability
Coconut Malorie      7      No availability
Skyline Tower          7       2 bedroom                178,500    47,250 Upgraded effect included
National Harbor      7       3 Bedroom Deluxe  266,000    94,500  Upgraded effect included
Ridge Top                 7       2 Bedroom                155,000    77,500    Shawnee Village
Crestview                 7       No availability                                            Shawnee Village                                                   
River Villiage           7        No availabity                                              Shawnee Village
Deputy                     7        No availability                                            Shawnee Village
Fairway Village       7        No availability                                            Shawnee Village
Bonnet Creek          7        3 Bedroom Deluxe   231,000   94,000 Upgrade effect included     
Old Town Alex.       7        2 Bedroom Lock-off 280,000    63,000 Upgrade effect included
Westwinds              7        2 Bedroom Deluxe      56,000    28,000   
Governor’s Green 7         2 Bedroom Deluxe      77,000    33,000 Upgrade effect included

For a maintenace fee comparsion, take the average projected maintance fee per 1000 points in your ideal porfolio times the points actually used.

The ability to get a three day holiday weekend for 50 percent off during the Advanced Reservation Priority for the discount window for VIP is also impressive.  i.e.  National Harbor 3 bedroom deluxe with balcony for 58,000 points for Feb 17, 18, and 19.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 18, 2011)

Understanding your vacation goals, planning in advance and having very good knowledge of the Wyndham system goes a VERY LONG WAY in usage, minimizing nuisance fees and maximizing benefits while NOT having VIP benefits. 

VIP benefits were developed as SALES HOOKS - ego, cheapness, and lottery tickets all combined to "WIN" some benefit. Why to some persons spend $75K on a new car and others are happy at $25K? Why do some persons need to have a foreign expensive car in their driveway over a domestic model? And no one ever says, I just wanted to throw money away by overpaying.

Yes, Platimum VIPs can rent many Wyndham units for less than what it costs almost all other owners to reserve that week. So, it would be cheaper to almost everyone other than a Platimum VIP to rent - esp if YOU think you need to BUY more points to take your family on vacation. Platimum VIPs have to spend lots of time to manage those multiple reservations, to cancel and rebook, to get the FREE unit upgrades, to advertise, to collect money, to complete Guest Certificates, and to deal with a variety of renters and their questions and requests and folibles. 

But if your plan is to personally USE a large point membership - even with some VIP level or NOT - you currently can RENT timeshares as John Chase states for less money than your MFs and exchanges fees would add up to.

And if you happen to inherit a Platimum VIP ownership from your parents, do not THINK that you will make money renting all those without a lot of work involving a slew of hours on the computer and the phone. And many of those phone calls are with the general public asking for the Wed-Wed week, the Dec 26 to Jan 3rd, the best unit in the house, a week for $55/night in a 2bdr, etc.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 18, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Not sure I followed your math.  I checked the Northeast Windhams, Bonnett Creek, Westwinds, Govenor's Green, and Old Town Alexandria on a spot check for February 10, 2012.  This places Winter Resorts and Summer Resorts both in the list.
> 
> .



I'm not sure what you did not follow in my math - nor do I know what your list has to do with my math or the resorts I am staying at.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 18, 2011)

am1 said:


> How is your costs basis only $2/1000 points?
> That is very low mfs.



50% discount on all reservations.


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## dr_adventure (Dec 18, 2011)

ronparise said:


> no one says there is no value to Platinum VIP...There is...The question is how much value? and is worth what you have to pay for a retail purchase? (about $150000) ...Thats tough to justify



I would agree if you paid $150,000 - I paid NO WHERE NEAR that and you don't have to.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 18, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> I would agree if you paid $150,000 - I paid NO WHERE NEAR that and you don't have to.



Yup, i've got to admit, never been to a sales meeting....But seeing this estimates of $120-$250 per 1,000 points to buy into VIP means, i'll never be VIP


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## ronparise (Dec 18, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> I would agree if you paid $150,000 - I paid NO WHERE NEAR that and you don't have to.



First of all your "cost basis" of $2/1000 points is not what I think of as cost basis, This is annual maintenance. and if you have no cost basis you could say its your cost for a vacation. I know the way I think some consider odd, but I think you need to include the cost to buy the points, amortized over some years

so ...ok Ill bite

My estimate was based on paying full retail

Other than:

 inheriting your points, where your cost basis is nothing except a dead relative, or 

marrying into them, where your costs basis is ....well unlimited. or 

PICing in a few 3 bedroom units,  and buying the rest from Wyndham, and your cost basis  comes down to 7 cents or so a point, which i still cant justify

How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget, and so I can rent a few of my weeks to timeos2 for a profit


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## rrlongwell (Dec 18, 2011)

ronparise said:


> ... How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget ... QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Identifiy an existing VIP owner that has Platinum Status (possable sources:  Ebay, Craigs List, Red Week, etc.  Offer to take over the management of their account for payment of the maintance fees on the account.  This agreement would be best done in written form as a 3-7 year lease of the account.  The benifit to the owner is they do not have the costs anytime soon of giving it away.  The agreement should also provide that the account be willed to you in the event of death of the owner.


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2011)

ronparise said:


> How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget, and so I can rent a few of my weeks to timeos2 for a profit



 

Get me the going rate of $199/week/ 2 bedroom & I'll take you up on it!


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 18, 2011)

ronparise said:


> How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget, and so I can rent a few of my weeks to timeos2 for a profit



He mentioned in a previous thread that his cost was $50,000 for the purchases to be VIP Platinum


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 18, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> ronparise said:
> 
> 
> > ... How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget ... QUOTE]
> ...


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 18, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> No, I have gotten one night stays before, they will usually start this on units under 60 days.  Same with three night to two night stays.  Two nights have shown up as unavailable when three nights were available.  The two night stay will then show up latter, you can even sometimes get a upgrade.



You can book 1 night stays through the 10 month window. If you search a resort with a lot of availability you will find a bunch of 1 night stays at the 8, 9 and 10 month window. These are "orphaned" days where for example a sunday to sunday week one person books sun - wed and another person books thurs - sun, wed would be orphaned and available for a 1 night stay. I actually created 2 of these for our trip in March. we needed a 1 night for saturday and a 1 night for sunday the next week. We are staying over in tenn on our drive out and back from myrtle beach. I had a VC look for a saturday to saturday week and book the sunday and monday for that week creating the 1 night available on saturday. I booked the one night and canceled sunday and monday, then did the same thing for the next weekend on the way back. So if you need a 1 night stay you can always make one.

Jason


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## chapjim (Dec 19, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You can book 1 night stays through the 10 month window. If you search a resort with a lot of availability you will find a bunch of 1 night stays at the 8, 9 and 10 month window. These are "orphaned" days where for example a sunday to sunday week one person books sun - wed and another person books thurs - sun, wed would be orphaned and available for a 1 night stay. I actually created 2 of these for our trip in March. we needed a 1 night for saturday and a 1 night for sunday the next week. We are staying over in tenn on our drive out and back from myrtle beach. I had a VC look for a saturday to saturday week and book the sunday and monday for that week creating the 1 night available on saturday. I booked the one night and canceled sunday and monday, then did the same thing for the next weekend on the way back. So if you need a 1 night stay you can always make one.
> 
> Jason



I have a one night reservation December 29th at Fairfield Glade, admittedly not prime time there.  Also, we have a one-nighter at Panama City Beach on the 6th of January that upgraded to a 2BR Pres. unit.  We did one-nighters in November at Smoky Mountains both ways between No. VA and New Orleans.  Again, nothing in prime time.

Most resorts only allow 3, 4, or 7 night reservations during busy seasons just to keep from having orphans.  At some point (60 days before check-in?), they probably take anything but at busy resorts, this is more hypothetical than real.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 19, 2011)

chapjim said:


> I have a one night reservation December 29th at Fairfield Glade, admittedly not prime time there.  Also, we have a one-nighter at Panama City Beach on the 6th of January that upgraded to a 2BR Pres. unit.  We did one-nighters in November at Smoky Mountains both ways between No. VA and New Orleans.  Again, nothing in prime time.
> 
> Most resorts only allow 3, 4, or 7 night reservations during busy seasons just to keep from having orphans.  At some point (60 days before check-in?), they probably take anything but at busy resorts, this is more hypothetical than real.




Actually they allow 1 day reservations during prime season. Look at Glacier canyon for July and August there is probably close to a dozen days that have 1 night stays available with no 3+ day stays available. 1 night stays are available as soon as their orphaned even in prime season. 

Jason


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## learnalot (Dec 19, 2011)

chapjim said:


> Most resorts only allow 3, 4, or 7 night reservations during busy seasons just to keep from having orphans.  At some point (60 days before check-in?), they probably take anything but at busy resorts, this is more hypothetical than real.



Since the computer still blocks inventory in terms of weeks, two 3-night reservations leave a one night orphan.  We have had several single night stays both in and out of prime season.  But I have also seen instances where 2 nights are available but it won't allow a single night.


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## scootr5 (Dec 19, 2011)

learnalot said:


> Since the computer still blocks inventory in terms of weeks, two 3-night reservations leave a one night orphan.  We have had several single night stays both in and out of prime season.  But I have also seen instances where 2 nights are available but it won't allow a single night.



I was trying to grab 3 nights at Glacier Canyon for 12/30 through 1/2. There were 2 nights each for 12/30 and 1/1, but I could not get the three nights (so I just booked the two 2-nighters and we'll leave early).


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 19, 2011)

I always prefer to book the night of the last day we are there. Then if we use the waterpark, we have a room to go back to and change instead of doing it in a bathroom. If you wanted just the 3 nights you could have(maybe still can) book a 2 night for 1/2-1/3 on a sunday-sunday week leaving sunday as a single day then book the sunday and cancel the 1/2 -1/3 reservation but again I find it much nicer to have the room all day on the day we leave. 

Jason


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## scootr5 (Dec 19, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I always prefer to book the night of the last day we are there. Then if we use the waterpark, we have a room to go back to and change instead of doing it in a bathroom.



That was my thinking as well, and it made it an even easier decision when I realized we are only "wasting" 8K in points. 

I called the resort today and they linked the reservations so we won't have to change rooms in the middle of the weekend, and when we get back I'll call and ask to have the HK for the second reservation credited back.


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## ronparise (Dec 19, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> rrlongwell said:
> 
> 
> > This is the way to go.  I know someone who manages over 100M points doing exactly this idea.  However, you need a great system to manage it and it doesn't make that much money.
> ...


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## ronparise (Dec 19, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> ronparise said:
> 
> 
> > ... How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget ... QUOTE]
> ...


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## kev5982 (Dec 19, 2011)

I agree with John on his #1 is to rent first and #2 is to buy very low resale, maybe a fixed week somewhere. You never know what the lifetime MF's are going to be.

Kevin


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 21, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> ronparise said:
> 
> 
> > ... How do you suggest I become a Platinum VIP on a budget ...
> ...



I don't think the will part will work because it would have to be willed to a relative according to the member directory to get the benefits to transfer. 

Jason


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## ronparise (Dec 22, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I don't think the will part will work because it would have to be willed to a relative according to the member directory to get the benefits to transfer.
> 
> Jason



It dosent say that...I read it as eligible points can be acquired by will *OR* from a relative


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## Cheryl20772 (Dec 22, 2011)

ronparise said:


> It dosent say that...I read it as eligible points can be acquired by will *OR* from a relative



I think you are right, Ron.  The book says:

"Only Club Wyndham Plus points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, *ownership interests asquired by will or intestate succession*, ownership interests acquired by "Immediate Relative" of Members, or through PIC conversions count toward VIP status."

If they mean what they say, all anyone who wants VIP has to do is get someone to will their VIP points to them.  I don't know why Wyndham makes such a point of defining who qualifies as immediate relative after that.  

So, if I know my kids don't want our Wyndham points when we are gone, all I need to do to rid the estate of them, is find anyone who wants to be the new owner and put that person in our wills.  Do you think?


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## learnalot (Dec 22, 2011)

Cheryl20772 said:


> I think you are right, Ron.  The book says:
> 
> "Only Club Wyndham Plus points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, *ownership interests asquired by will or intestate succession*, ownership interests acquired by "Immediate Relative" of Members, or through PIC conversions count toward VIP status."
> 
> ...


Cheryl and Ron,

I agree that is how it currently reads but they can, of course, change the wording at any time.  Seems to me that, once again, discretion is the better part of valor.  Some communications and musings are much more appropriate in a less public venue.


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## Cheryl20772 (Dec 22, 2011)

learnalot said:


> Cheryl and Ron,
> 
> I agree that is how it currently reads but they can, of course, change the wording at any time.  Seems to me that, once again, discretion is the better part of valor.  Some communications and musings are much more appropriate in a less public venue.


For us it's a moot point.  We don't plan to have our wills pay out until at least another 15 or 25 years go by.  I wonder what Wyndham will look like by then?

Can you imagine the ads from people looking for someone to put in their will to inherit their you know what?


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## The Big Kahuna (Dec 25, 2011)

ronparise said:


> That retail purchase will cost you $12000 to $27000 depending on where you do it. National Harbor quoted me $27000 when I was there recently  and Corporate sales offered me a contract for $12000



How would one contact "Corporate Sales" if one wanted to buy developer points directly from them rather than from Wydham's usual retail sales offices?

Thanks in advance!


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## ronparise (Dec 25, 2011)

The Big Kahuna said:


> How would one contact "Corporate Sales" if one wanted to buy developer points directly from them rather than from Wydham's usual retail sales offices?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Marcy Enck
Sales Executive
Wyndham Corporate Direct
8415 South Park Circle, Suite 140
Orlando, Florida 32819
800-786-6764, ext. 6949 ph
407-354-5450 fax
Marcia.enck@wyn.com


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## The Big Kahuna (Dec 28, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Marcy Enck
> Sales Executive
> Wyndham Corporate Direct
> 8415 South Park Circle, Suite 140
> ...



Many, many thanks, Ron!


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## sandkastle4966 (Dec 28, 2011)

dr_adventure said:


> So I thought I would put this to the test - I have three weeks worth of rental at Wyndham Canterbury (mostly in 1 bdroom - but about two of the weekends have been upgraded to 2 bdroom presidental) - this is for Mid January.
> 
> On RCI today those one bedrooms are renting for $1680 or about $240 a night - I got them for 150K in points - which is about $300 to me in terms of a percentage of my MF)  Without VIP I would have paid $1250 as a percentage of MF.
> 
> ...




Back to the "don't follow the math" post ......I read back to your post that says you have 850k of points, and about $5,000 of MF. (that makes sense to me.)  Lets round down and use $5.5 per 1k

The rerservation quoted above is 150k is $825 of MF. 


There was then a response to "how get $2/1k":

       Quote from post:
       Originally Posted by am1  
       How is your costs basis only $2/1000 points?
       That is very low mfs. 

       50% discount on all reservations  
        (end quote)

Applying the VIP discount (50%) to your MF to get to "$2/1k"  doesn't make sense to me.  You get the points at a discount, not the MF.

I think you are using your the "discount" twice - 50% off the MF and then using points that were already discounted.

(you ARE still getting a better deal than RCI)


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 28, 2011)

sandkastle4966 said:


> Back to the "don't follow the math" post ......I read back to your post that says you have 850k of points, and about $5,000 of MF. (that makes sense to me.)  Lets round down and use $5.5 per 1k
> 
> The rerservation quoted above is 150k is $825 of MF.
> 
> ...



I think it's just a different way of figuring out cost. if he has 1,000,000 points at $5,000 but ends up getting reservations worth 2.25 million in regular cost then his cost would be closer to $2/k of the full value of the reservations. It makes it easier to do an apples to apples comparison to resale points because you would need to purchase more points resale to cover the reservation he is able to get with his discounts. 

Jason


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## am1 (Dec 28, 2011)

I do not understand dr adventure's math either.  He is using 150k points to book the weeks instead of 300k points.


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## timeos2 (Dec 28, 2011)

am1 said:


> I do not understand dr adventure's math either.  He is using 150k points to book the weeks instead of 300k points.



In my experience it seems that those who have some of these expense ownerships - either purchase cost or ongoing fees - come up with very creative ways to convince themselves they are "saving".  I understand it as everyone wants to get the most for their money but when put under the microscope the numbers often fail to hold up.    

It is a big reason I try to promote a very simple approach to buying. If it is a good value to use for you then go for it.  If it make financial sense to pay the purchase cost, closing fees and ever rising annual fees to trade or rent it then double check your assumptions.  Far too often the projected rental / trade value is far too optimistic and that destroys the value or anticipated profit.  If it takes complicated calculations to arrive at a positive bottom line you are probably over estimating income and under estimating costs to justify the idea to yourself.  In most cases the outcome won't be good in the long run.


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## am1 (Dec 28, 2011)

If his cost basis is only $300 for a 150k point reservation I would be willing to give him a %200 profit on all his points.


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## rrlongwell (Jan 6, 2012)

Are their any Smugglers Notch fixed week, re-sale owners out there that have attended a Wyndham sales presentation?  If so, did they offer to take the re-sale week and if so, under what terms?.


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