# Was considering eBay Bid - Input/Feedback Sought from Fellow TUG Members



## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 13, 2014)

Had been considering making an online bid through ebay site on a past listing for deeded "float gold" week (18-21, 35-50) at an Orlando MVCI resort property described as "deeded as unit xxxx, week 46".  Description was for an annual floating gold 2 br/2 ba. delivered with clean title, maintenance fees approx $1100, no known assessments and usage beginning year 2015.  

Bids were $600-800 range at the time that auction closed. 

I guess my question is it seemed too good to be true that somebody could get this on eBay for under $1,000 when resale sites were listing floating gold resales for same in the $20,000 range.

What am I missing here or was this seller that desperate to unload their TS?

To my TUG friends, thoughts/opinion/comments on this particular scenario and eBay in general for Marriott TS weeks please?

Thanks.

SBD


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2014)

Gold Orlando weeks generally sell in this range. EBay is also has the lowest resale prices out there. You can't compare them to what people list weeks for on other sites since many people don't know the true value (or lack thereof) of their timeshare week.

Gold Orlando weeks are really actually pretty good weeks to buy, they are cheap, have low MFs, and can trade fairly good if you are willing to travel in shoulder or off season.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 13, 2014)

Thank you.  Yes looking at the charts, and having young kids, I would travel either around Memorial Day, week leading into labor day or Thanksgiving time.  May be worth the investment if the cost really is $1000 or so and the MF's are in the $1200 range as a hotel room could be +/- $200 plus tax per night.  I still think I am missing something but maybe not.  Just odd seller would sell for the $1000 range when other people are listing what appears to be the same thing on resale websites for nearly $20,000.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Thank you.  Yes looking at the charts, and having young kids, I would travel either around Memorial Day, week leading into labor day or Thanksgiving time.  May be worth the investment if the cost really is $1000 or so and the MF's are in the $1200 range as a hotel room could be +/- $200 plus tax per night.  I still think I am missing something but maybe not.  Just odd seller would sell for the $1000 range when other people are listing what appears to be the same thing on resale websites for nearly $20,000.



The thing is that those people listing for $20,000 are not going to sell their weeks. They will sit there forever. They are delusional. The good thing is, if you are looking at Grande Vista or Harbour Lake, you can also lock those units off and get two weeks out of one. Effectively making your cost per week about $600.


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## GregT (Jul 13, 2014)

Yes, that's the current market price for one of those Gold weeks.  I agree with Dioxide that the people asking $20K will never sell their units -- nor will they sell them for $5K.

Traditional week ownership continues to look attractive (if you will use it for personal use) versus points ownership.

We may find the ideal combination morphs into owning a legacy week for personal use, and then appending on a (rented or owned) points reservation for additional days.   

Best,

Greg


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 13, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> The thing is that those people listing for $20,000 are not going to sell their weeks. They will sit there forever. They are delusional. The good thing is, if you are looking at Grande Vista or Harbour Lake, you can also lock those units off and get two weeks out of one. Effectively making your cost per week about $600.



This particular listing if I recall said cannot lock off 2br/2ba (which is fine in theory) but would that make a difference in your opinion?


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## pwrshift (Jul 13, 2014)

I discussed ROFR with a salesman at Manor Club last week and he said Marriott doesn't even want them because the deeds can't be converted to DC if Marriott buys them...and weeks are a dying breed.  He also said if Marriott did buy a $300 week and sold it for $20,000 the govt. could consider it a ponzi scam.  He pulled out a number of sheets showing all the sales that went through and that Marriott only exercised ROFR on a very small number of them.  If this is true it does make you wonder why they bought any of them.


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## GregT (Jul 13, 2014)

pwrshift said:


> I discussed ROFR with a salesman at Manor Club last week and he said Marriott doesn't even want them because the deeds can't be converted to DC if Marriott buys them...and weeks are a dying breed.



Can't be converted to DC?   I think he is a buffoon.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 13, 2014)

GregT said:


> Can't be converted to DC?   I think he is a buffoon.



That is being kind to him, Greg.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 14, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I guess my question is it seemed too good to be true that somebody could get this on eBay for under $1,000 when resale sites were listing floating gold resales for same in the $20,000 range.



There are *no* Orlando Marriott's being sold for $20K resale. Not even Marriott themselves broker them for $20k. Well, one exception. Marriott will broker a 3BR Premier Platinum at Lakeshore Reserve for $21K.

List prices don't mean a thing.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 14, 2014)

You can get a platinum week for under $1000 sometimes. Not uncommon, you just have to keep your eye on eBay for it.

www.ebay.com/itm/111389769985?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 14, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Had been considering making an online bid through ebay site on a past listing for deeded "float gold" week (18-21, 35-50) at an Orlando MVCI resort property described as "deeded as unit xxxx, week 46".  Description was for an annual floating gold 2 br/2 ba. delivered with clean title, maintenance fees approx $1100, no known assessments and usage beginning year 2015.
> 
> Bids were $600-800 range at the time that auction closed.
> 
> ...



eBay listing Grande Vista of Orlando of annual floating gold 2 br/2 ba. delivered with clean title, maintenance fees approx $1100, no known assessments and usage beginning year 2015 -- went for $400. In your opinion, good deal or bad deal?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> You can get a platinum week for under $1000 sometimes. Not uncommon, you just have to keep your eye on eBay for it.
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/111389769985?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648



There was this Gold Grande Vista auction that ended today that perhaps the OP was looking at.

If the seller submits ROFR at these auction prices, I suspect they won't pass given the annual usage. Though we know ebay sellers tend to bake in their other fees in the ROFR waiver request amount.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 14, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> You can get a platinum week for under $1000 sometimes. Not uncommon, you just have to keep your eye on eBay for it.
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/111389769985?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648



I wonder if Marriott exercised their ROFR and took this back.  Seems too good to be true.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I wonder if Marriott exercised their ROFR and took this back.  Seems too good to be true.



They probably did. Though not because it is too good to be true, at least not based on sales a few years ago. We picked up a 2BR Harbour Lake gold in 2009 for only $809. That week originally sold for about $18,000. You can't compare resale prices to what was originally paid for the unit.

I think however that more buyers are now scared off by ROFR. They are just not going to bother bidding because they know they will just lose it to ROFR. That is why we are seeing depressed prices on some of these ended auctions.


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## jme (Jul 14, 2014)

*Be patient*

Consider a platinum Manor Club Sequel lockoff week (under $1000), which has one of the lowest maintenance fees of any Marriott. Split the week and trade into your destination of choice, i.e. Orlando, and in the process gain two up-trades: studio > 1-BR master villa w full kitchen, and 1-BR master > 2-BR, giving you TWO good weeks. Orlando is an easy trade anytime.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2014)

jme said:


> Consider a platinum Manor Club Sequel lockoff week (under $1000), which has one of the lowest maintenance fees of any Marriott. Split the week and trade into your destination of choice, i.e. Orlando, and in the process gain two up-trades: studio > 1-BR master villa w full kitchen, and 1-BR master > 2-BR, giving you TWO good weeks. Orlando is an easy trade anytime.



I think for comparison sake, Williamsburg and Orlando are pretty much the same. Both are overbuilt and have almost identical MFs. Though I might perhaps give Orlando an edge because of a more even demand over most of the year where Manor Club is peak summer and then demand really drops off. Manor Club is also a pretty easy trade any time of the year. Though I think perhaps Manor Club Platinum sells a little cheaper.


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## jme (Jul 14, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I think for comparison sake, Williamsburg and Orlando are pretty much the same. Both are overbuilt and have almost identical MFs. Though I might perhaps give Orlando an edge because of a more even demand over most of the year where Manor Club is peak summer and then demand really drops off. Manor Club is also a pretty easy trade any time of the year. Though I think perhaps Manor Club Platinum sells a little cheaper.



if for trading only, especially into Orlando or anywhere else, Manor Club platinum is at least equal to, but imho, much better than GV gold. Plus it has lower maintenance fee and lower up-front cost to purchase. why not? 

not related to the OP's need, but there's another great perk, the real reason I got one for myself, but I'm holding that thought.



.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 14, 2014)

On an offer like the example I posted what do you think the fair market value of the floating gold is at this resort nowadays and what do you think the owner paid for it (even a range) in its hey day?


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## jme (Jul 14, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> On an offer like the example I posted what do you think the fair market value of the floating gold is at this resort nowadays and what do you think the owner paid for it (even a range) in its hey day?



jmho, but $800-1500 now (on Ebay, depending on the moment. It varies from time to time. Still, Ebay is the best source for resale purchases, hands down. Prices are going up, have since 18 months ago, just based on observation.)

vs $18,000-20,000+/- from developer.

the cost differences, to you NYFLTRAVELER, are totally irrelevant. Has absolutely no meaning today. Same for any other resort, for that matter. 

Great cars used to cost $1500 in 1968....that's also irrelevant. Same for $20,000 weeks in 1999, only it's reversed. TS market's bottom fell out, just that simple. 


.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2014)

jme said:


> if for trading only, especially into Orlando or anywhere else, Manor Club platinum is at least equal to, but imho, much better than GV gold. Plus it has lower maintenance fee and lower up-front cost to purchase. why not?
> 
> not related to the OP's need, but there's another great perk, the real reason I got one for myself, but I'm holding that thought.
> 
> ...



The Manor Club MFs are not cheaper than Orlando. They are pretty much on par with Harbour Lake but are about $50-$60 higher than Grande Vista. Manor Club has it beat on upfront cost. Platinum at Manor Club does beat out Gold Orlando in terms of trade power and price.

In the end, I don't think you can go wrong with Platinum at either one. Though if one likes to golf, Manor Club is probably a better option 

_ETA: Thinking about this more, Platinum Manor Club sounds like a better option. Given that it costs about the same as Gold Orlando. So why such the depresses resale prices at Manor Club?_


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> On an offer like the example I posted what do you think the fair market value of the floating gold is at this resort nowadays and what do you think the owner paid for it (even a range) in its hey day?



You need to ignore what the owner paid for the week. It has zero relevance to the current value on the resale market.


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## jme (Jul 14, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> The Manor Club MFs are not cheaper than Orlando. They are pretty much on par with Harbour Lake but are about $50-$60 higher than Grande Vista. Manor Club has it beat on upfront cost. Platinum at Manor Club does beat out Gold Orlando in terms of trade power and price.
> 
> In the end, I don't think you can go wrong with Platinum at either one. Though if one likes to golf, Manor Club is probably a better option
> 
> _ETA: Thinking about this more, Platinum Manor Club sounds like a better option. Given that it costs about the same as Gold Orlando. So why such the depresses resale prices at Manor Club?_



don't know about GV's mf, but last time i checked, a long time ago, seems it was higher, so i'll spot you that one. Otherwise i like Manor Club for his needs. Being platinum at Manor Club is a not such a little deal.

and.....yes, Manor Club has a great golf course, but GV also has the (former?) "Faldo Golf Academy" and Grande Vista Golf Club, so golf has no bearing on my decision to buy at Manor Club ........but there's still a fantastic perk to owning Manor Club...again, I'm holding that thought. All things considered, there's nothing in the system that does what it does for the cost, and nobody's ever mentioned it. There is ONE other resort that sort of compares (altho slightly higher purchase price), but something else about that one rules it out, big time.)


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## Beefnot (Jul 14, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> They probably did. Though not because it is too good to be true, at least not based on sales a few years ago. We picked up a 2BR Harbour Lake gold in 2009 for only $809. That week originally sold for about $18,000. You can't compare resale prices to what was originally paid for the unit.
> 
> I think however that more buyers are now scared off by ROFR. They are just not going to bother bidding because they know they will just lose it to ROFR. That is why we are seeing depressed prices on some of these ended auctions.


 
 A disciplined ROFR program does not depress resale prices; rather it buoys resale prices. DVC and HGVC are examples of this.


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## jme (Jul 14, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> A disciplined ROFR program does not depress resale prices; rather it buoys resale prices. DVC and HGVC are examples of this.



absolutely correct, but I think dioxide simply meant that bidders perhaps become disinterested earlier nowadays during an auction and stop bidding it up, knowing that ROFR will kick in anyway, so they abandon the auction at lower bids. 

ROFR's purpose is definitely to prop up prices. Like the old developer argument that "you won't get Rewards Points" if you buy resale...same ultimate goal.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

Be aware that ROFR is very random, probably due to who is looking at and approving ROFR. I've seen higher ones get exercised while lower ones passed. I personally love it when people opt out as it makes it so much easier for me to buy and if they exercise ROFR, there will always be another coming along right away. I do not allow ROFR to influence my bid at all, I'm going to bid what I am prepared to pay and if it is taken, so be it. Don't let fear drive your bid! It's not the only one out there.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 15, 2014)

I do not think Marriott would ever approve a sale at $400.  It cheapens the brand.


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## m61376 (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I do not think Marriott would ever approve a sale at $400.  It cheapens the brand.



I don't think Marriott cares about resale weeks being cheapened I perception - that's what they are, in effect, advertising when you talk to them. Points are the all powerful today, at least according to their hype. 

Interestingly, I just had very close friends who went to Aruba on a package deal. Even though they were interested in the destination, and according to another post are selling enroll able weeks there again, all they were offered were enough points for most Gold weeks at about 40k or most Plat. Weeks at 50k. Ultimately they said no ( or they would have been rescinding ...). They declined because they felt it was just too much money. When I told her what the resale weeks were now going for, let's just say their interest level soared. If they were offered a resale week while down there at the presentation there is a good chance they would have made a sale, but they were never offered it.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I do not think Marriott would ever approve a sale at $400.  It cheapens the brand.



m61376 is right. They definitely don't care. It's quite the opposite. They tout weeks ownership as being inferior and gradually being worthless.

But that said they are not really "approving" of any sales. They do not have that right. Instead they can only opt to purchase the week at the same price and terms. They only do this for one reason which is to add it to the trust and convert to points for sale. Many truly worthless weeks they have no interest in because it would "cheapen" the trust.


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## jme (Jul 15, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> Be aware that ROFR is very random, probably due to who is looking at and approving ROFR. I've seen higher ones get exercised while lower ones passed. *I personally love it when people opt out as it makes it so much easier for me to buy* and if they exercise ROFR, there will always be another coming along right away. I do not allow ROFR to influence my bid at all, I'm going to bid what I am prepared to pay and if it is taken, so be it. Don't let fear drive your bid! It's not the only one out there.



*exactly*........it shouldn't be a factor at all in any auction as to what you want and how much you want to pay (or not pay). As you said, if they exercise it, no big deal, if not, it IS a big deal, for you. Chances are, they'll waiver anyway......altho there's been a slight resurgence lately on high end weeks, for obvious reasons, i.e., placing them in the trust.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I do not think Marriott would ever approve a sale at $400.  It cheapens the brand.



I bought my first Marriott Willow Ridge Platinum for $963 on eBay, all in with closing costs including first year's usage (MF was $888 that year), so my net cost was really $75. My winning bid was $394 with $120 transfer fees and $449 closing cost. Very similar to the auction that closed. 

My second one was $787, free closing and transfer. The third one I just paid closing costs for $200. Marriott did not exercise their ROFR on any of them. 

It is possible, you just have to wait and be patient. Maybe it is better people don't try at this level, then I have less competition on eBay 

Edit : The other thing you have to consider the MAJORITY of timeshare owners/purchasers know absolutely NOTHING about the resale market or value. They only know what it was "worth" when they bought it from the developer. A very small percentage of owners look at resales as by the general ignorance of a resale market at all and thus will not know anything about "cheaping the brand". 

If everyone knew what timeshares are really worth, no one would be buying from the developers, but thousands and thousands continually do each and every year. They would never continue paying $20-50K to buy a "new" timeshare.


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## GreenTea (Jul 15, 2014)

I got one on eBay.   I worried about ROFR but it passed.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

GreenTea said:


> I got one on eBay.   I worried about ROFR but it passed.



Which resort & season ? How much was it for ?


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## RBERR1 (Jul 15, 2014)

One thing to keep in mind is that not all resorts have ROFR. I think they are mainly ones that MVCI bought vs. built.  For example, I got a great deal on a summer week at Sunset Pointe and I did not need to worry about ROFR as it was not an ROFR property.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 15, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> I bought my first Marriott Willow Ridge Platinum for $963 on eBay, all in with closing costs including first year's usage (MF was $888 that year), so my net cost was really $75. My winning bid was $394 with $120 transfer fees and $449 closing cost. Very similar to the auction that closed.
> 
> My second one was $787, free closing and transfer. The third one I just paid closing costs for $200. Marriott did not exercise their ROFR on any of them.
> 
> ...



I see these eBays at under $1000 and then say to myself why am I buying 3500 DC points (resale of course) @ $4.05/point (before Marriott fees) which I thought was a good deal in itself.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I see these eBays at under $1000 and then say to myself why am I buying 3500 DC points (resale of course) @ $4.05/point (before Marriott fees) which I thought was a good deal in itself.



That is indeed the question. I really see no need to ever buy points. Additional resale weeks, yes, but points no. Of course that might change way down the road if the II landscape changes where it doesn't work for us. But I don't see that happening.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 15, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> That is indeed the question. I really see no need to ever buy points. Additional resale weeks, yes, but points no. Of course that might change way down the road if the II landscape changes where it doesn't work for us. But I don't see that happening.



The only thing I can think of is multiple locations = multiple MF's. Whereas with points the MF's would be less. Otherwise I am left to second guess my choice of resale DC points


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## dioxide45 (Jul 15, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> I bought my first Marriott Willow Ridge Platinum for $963 on eBay, all in with closing costs including first year's usage (MF was $888 that year), so my net cost was really $75. My winning bid was $394 with $120 transfer fees and $449 closing cost. Very similar to the auction that closed.
> 
> My second one was $787, free closing and transfer. The third one I just paid closing costs for $200. Marriott did not exercise their ROFR on any of them.
> 
> ...



How recent were these transaction though? Were they not a few years ago? I agree, ROFR was not a concern between 2008 and early to mid 2013. Weeks were getting through for great bargains. The same can't be said today.

Saintsfanfl has recorded nine entries in the ROFR in the past 12 months. Of those, only THREE have passed. That is a pretty low success rate. I think you might have trouble similar transaction through today vs a few years ago when you did.

I still agree though, bid away and get the best deal you can. At some piont you might be successful. Probably sooner rather than later. Though it might take longer these days. Many people might run out of patience.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I see these eBays at under $1000 and then say to myself why am I buying 3500 DC points (resale of course) @ $4.05/point (before Marriott fees) which I thought was a good deal in itself.



Exactly!!!!


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> How recent were these transaction though? Were they not a few years ago? I agree, ROFR was not a concern between 2008 and early to mid 2013. Weeks were getting through for great bargains. The same can't be said today.
> 
> Saintsfanfl has recorded nine entries in the ROFR in the past 12 months. Of those, only THREE have passed. That is a pretty low success rate. I think you might have trouble similar transaction through today vs a few years ago when you did.
> 
> I still agree though, bid away and get the best deal you can. At some piont you might be successful. Probably sooner rather than later. Though it might take longer these days. Many people might run out of patience.



The first was July 2012, second was in May 2013, third was Oct 2013. 

I think Saintsfanfl has been jerked around as per his thread with CJ's. I've purchased a bunch for my brother and it has not been a problem thus far. Maybe the environment has changed, but I still see the same deals on eBay still. Whether it goes ROFR or not is hard to say, but I have not experienced it. For as many as Saintsfanfl seems to have ROFR, something sounds fishy to me with the people he is dealing with.
I have to be honest, I haven't been really hunting actively as was last year as I have more than I can use now, but would consider buying to re-sell to Marriott.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 15, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> A disciplined ROFR program does not depress resale prices; rather it buoys resale prices. DVC and HGVC are examples of this.



This is true, but ROFR is far from disciplined at Marriott. One other thing that is unique to Marriott is that they now have two distinct programs. New buyers are coming in wanting DC points because they have been told of all the great things points can do. Weeks is now a secondary program to Marriott and resale weeks have the huge drawback of not being able to be enrolled in the DC program. DVC and HGVC don't have that issue.

Because of that, I think it further depresses resale priceing on non prime Marriott weeks. Making for fewer people wanting them. This will continue to cause even the few low season weeks that we see on EBay to end with low final bids.

I now see far fewer Marriott weeks on II compared to years ago. The buyback program is probably a huge cause of this. The PCCs are probably getting weeks back and turning them over to buyback instead of going through the trouble of listing and selling. They also have a guaranteed income vs uncertainty of EBay.

Even with fewer weeks on II, the final bids of low season weeks has not gone up. You would expect with less supply that you would see prices pick up some, but the recent $400 gold Grande Vista week and even $600 Platinum Harbour Lake show that this is not happening.

I think the issue is that people just aren't willing to pay what is required to get these weeks through ROFR. This is why I think more people are dropping out before the bidding gets high enough to even be possible to pass. While these weeks have value to some, they have no value to many more people. That along with the fact they can't be enrolled in DC is depressing resale prices where ROFR is almost always guaranteed.

So in this case, for low/shoulder season Marriott weeks, ROFR is keeping prices down, not up as we would normally expect. Of course, it perhaps is helping the sales prices on higher end weeks.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 15, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> The only thing I can think of is multiple locations = multiple MF's. Whereas with points the MF's would be less. Otherwise I am left to second guess my choice of resale DC points



You will still be way cheaper no matter how you slice it. Take what happened recently on II - a bunch of weeks at Marriott Maui Ocean Club Lahaina and Napili towers popped up. They rarely come up in bulk like this and I grabbed 2 x 2 br units using 2 x 1 br lock offs. 

Assuming I only had 2 deeds, say 2 x Harbour Lake at about $1100 MF & $80 lock off, plus 4 exchanges at $124 each, I'm at about $2850 total plus I still have 2 more trades to use. 

Using points, you would have to use 6500 (?) DC for each 2 br and lets say your MF on 13000 DC points $0.40 = $5200 plus the initial cost of say $4 per point of $52,000. I'm not completely sure if it is 6500 but I thought that was the amount needed for a 2 br in the new towers, please correct me if I have this value wrong.

The cost differential is crazy! Unless you have an absolute need for points for some sort of specific reason, you are way way further ahead buying resale weeks. Even if you had to pay $2000 for a platinum week, who cares ? You were willing to pay $14K for 3500 resale points! 

Whether a deed is $400 or $2500 it is a far cry from buying points. I think it would still be a good deal at $2000 for what you are getting. Plus there is still a chance to resell it later when you are done with it. Who knows what it will be worth, but the worst case you lose $2000.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 15, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> That is indeed the question. I really see no need to ever buy points. Additional resale weeks, yes, but points no. Of course that might change way down the road if the II landscape changes where it doesn't work for us. But I don't see that happening.



In my view, the primary reason to own points is the ability to travel for less than a week. 

One of the biggest frustrations with our first timeshare at Kaanapali Beach Club over the last 16 years has been that we have had to travel for a week at a time. When we have used it in Hawaii it has been great because it doesn't make sense to go out there for short trips from the eastern US. But when we can't use the week in Hawaii (and we haven't been there since 2011), we have had problems finding places in RCI or II that we want to go for a full week. We have four unused weeks in RCI and II that we are finally trying to force ourselves to use so we can quit paying extension and combine fees. My wife and teenage daughter are going to take a trip at Thanksgiving and another next spring, and we've got an ongoing search going on for the other two weeks.

We are hopeful that Marriott DC points will allow us to do some shorter trips/long weekends in shoulder seasons. Hopefully there will be adequate points availability at some of the off-ocean locations in Hilton Head in spring and fall.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 15, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> You will still be way cheaper no matter how you slice it. Take what happened recently on II - a bunch of weeks at Marriott Maui Ocean Club Lahaina and Napili towers popped up. They rarely come up in bulk like this and I grabbed 2 x 2 br units using 2 x 1 br lock offs.
> 
> Assuming I only had 2 deeds, say 2 x Harbour Lake at about $1100 MF & $80 lock off, plus 4 exchanges at $124 each, I'm at about $2850 total plus I still have 2 more trades to use.
> 
> ...



THe only problem with a lot of the bulks is that you have to be willing to travel in off/shoulder season and/or on short notice. So this works great for  a small subset of owners (of which you and I are members of) but not so much for many others. A lot of people are tied to school schedules and peak times. So these bulks don't always work well.

If you are able to travel in the off season and on short notice, nothing beats a resale week. One can often use a resale gold week which can be picked up pretty cheap with decent MFs. We enjoy traveling in the shoulder season but sometimes travel on one of the less peak holidays like Labor Day, Memorial Day or Thanksgiving. While popular holidays, they are usually in the school calendar, so they are lesser demand compared to Easter, Christmas and July 4th.


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## jme (Jul 16, 2014)

*DC?  hate it, love it.*

never bought DC points, never will.... so I agree with the general consensus in this thread that it's not wise. 

Don't you guys remember the utter ridicule and vilification of the legacy week owner who "bought from the developer", paying exorbitant prices? What happened to that notion? 

I think I can still see the reflection of the Dunce Hat that appeared on my screen every time I opened up TUG. It burned an image that is still vaguely there. 

So, what's the difference in somebody spending $70,000 for 6000 DC points today? That won't even get them one full week at Mountainside in February, which calls for 7725 points......it's beyond ridiculous. 

so, do you then think it's better to start with a measly purchase of 2500 points for $25,000+
and be entitled to 5 nights in the shoulder season at a mid-level resort, or the equivalent?   
again, heck no.  Same song, smaller idiot. No offense, but what are they thinking? Could buy 4 or 5 great resale weeks with that, rent out some if desired and thereby cover some of the MFs, and enjoy the others.  Or enjoy the heck out of all 4 or 5 weeks. If lock-offs, turn them into 10 weeks. 

Should this be the start of the "RETURN OF THE DEEDED WEEK LOVE FEST"?   Sure, why not?..... it's darn attractive still, imho, and I've always said that.... Via resale on Ebay, that is.... Lots you can do with one of those weeks, and far cheaper. Wish I had the cash to get me a platinum Marriott Ocean Club week, but my only daughter just got married last month, so forget that! LOL


Here's what I really wanted to say, before that long-winded preface:
*BEST DEAL EVER* was the ability to ENROLL a bunch of legacy weeks back when it was offered so cheaply. It was a twist of fate for us, and we felt fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, to say the least. At that point I was far removed from the ad nauseum apologies for my developer purchases. After all, it WAS before TUG, so I learned to forgive myself. 

We had already accumulated 7 marriott weeks which we enrolled, giving us 17,800 points annually if we wanted. That's almost too many to contemplate using that way in a year, but for a couple of big trips, or tweaking the system in other ways, the possibilities were there. 

Needs might change as we mature, I reasoned, and the typical 7-night timeshare week at a resort just might not be the selection of choice in the future as the kids go their own way.  I began to see that it might provide opportunities to include them in new and more creative ways, dare say even better ways, and I'm only beginning to research those avenues. We still enjoy weeks predominantly, but the wheels are turning. Just luck from enrolling, though, no purchases of points. For us, the combination of legacy weeks and enrolled points PLUS a couple of resale weeks completes every need we could ever have, and it's a full-time job just figuring out what to do with all the time we've been given. 

Love the flexibility of using those DC points if need be, even if only converting a week or two annually. That's where owning ONLY legacy enrolled weeks (and no purchased DC points) STILL gives the ability to travel for less than a full week, as JIMinNC pointed out as a desired scenario and his stated primary reason for owning DC points. Owning them isn't the problem, though, it's how you got them. 

We simply backed into all this by pure dumb luck. Thought we were so stupid for those purchases, but now I'm not feeling so guilty. 

All the while still experiencing the benefits of the deeded week, I then proceeded to buy another Marriott week resale, and learned that it enhanced what i already had---now we had even more possibilities. It frees up an enrolled week for conversion to be used in various ways, while then occupying that resale week or trading it. 

I feel by luck of the draw we got the best of all worlds.  Why would we ever eschew the "deeded week", as Marriott reps were doing as they introduced the DC program (and sadly, as some owners were doing, selling all their weeks or whatever while they lamented the demise of "everything Marriott")? We're so glad we have them. And the "resale deeded week" should be something highly prized again, especially at such great prices....and historically speaking, incredible prices. 

And another thing----If anyone's worried about those multiple resale weeks' maintenance fees adding up (as someone pined), just do the unthinkable and BUY TWO MORE and rent them out, thereby covering a couple of the other maintenance fees.  Rental property, right?  More you have, the better you do.... but you must buy only the weeks that rent for much more than the MF. 

Enough already.  yes, we're lucky and feel very blessed. In the right place at the right time, I think.  We've gotten our money's worth already in our 16 years as owners as we and our children have seen the world, and the future still looks good with even more possibilities. The timeshare concept of hedging against future vacation costs (whether valid or not) has now arrived, so we've got a good thing going forward.  

DC isn't all bad, it's just bad for those who meet it for the first time in a sales office. I guess that's about the same time they get smacked as the door slams on their rear end as it closes on the way out after a purchase---they just don't have a clue what just hit them, and what it all means......yet.





.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 16, 2014)

jme said:


> *BEST DEAL EVER* was the ability to ENROLL a bunch of legacy weeks back when it was offered so cheaply. It was a twist of fate for us, and we felt fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, to say the least.



So wish we had been owners prior to June 2010 so we could have done this...




> Love the flexibility of using those DC points if need be, even if only converting a week or two annually. That's where owning ONLY legacy enrolled weeks (and no purchased DC points) STILL gives the ability to travel for less than a full week, as JIMinNC pointed out as a desired scenario and his stated primary reason for owning DC points. Owning them isn't the problem, though, it's how you got them.



For those of us who were late to the party, we had no choice but to buy DC points in some fashion. For all the reasons you mentioned in your preamble to you full post, we could not see how paying full retail could ever make sense, so we settled on the combo/hybrid approach to average down our cost to around $7/point. Still not a _great_ deal, but it was our only way to get in at this point. And as I said in my post above, non-enrolled resale weeks just don't work that well for us because they force us into 7 night stays.



> We've gotten our money's worth already in our 16 years as owners as we and our children have seen the world, and the future still looks good with even more possibilities. The timeshare concept of hedging against future vacation costs (whether valid or not) has now arrived, so we've got a good thing going forward.



Sounds like you bought your first week about the same time we bought ours, as we have owned at Kaanapali Beach Club for 16 years. We have also received our money's worth out of that week and have many great memories that we probably would not have if renting was our only option. But we are now working to sell it as our needs have changed. We are hopeful that our new Marriott ownership will work better for us.


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## jme (Jul 16, 2014)

JIMinNC said:


> So wish we had been owners prior to June 2010 so we could have done this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



all good points.  not sure what you'll get for your Kaanapali Beach Club week, but I'm sure it would rent out for a good bit each year. Have you considered doing that?  It might allow another great rental somewhere, or whatever...or just provide cash annually.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 16, 2014)

jme said:


> all good points.  not sure what you'll get for your Kaanapali Beach Club week, but I'm sure it would rent out for a good bit each year. Have you considered doing that?  It might allow another great rental somewhere, or whatever...or just provide cash annually.



I never been inclined to delve into consumer-to-consumer rentals on either side of the transaction, but based on Redweek.com, renting Kaanapali Beach Club weeks is not as easy as renting Marriott. There are 100 or so KBC rental listings on Redweek (many for less than MF), but less than 15% have rented.

Won't get a lot for our old week, but it's time to move on. We've gotten more than our money's worth over 16 years even though it was a developer purchase. Even factoring in the opportunity cost of the initial purchase we are still slightly ahead. (But if we _hadn't_ bought that timeshare in 1998, the money would have likely stayed in Bank of America stock - and we know what happened there :annoyed: perhaps a worse capital investment than timeshare ) Plus you can't put a monetary value on the vacations taken that we probably wouldn't have done if we had to rent.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 16, 2014)

jme said:


> don't know about GV's mf, but last time i checked, a long time ago, seems it was higher, so i'll spot you that one. Otherwise i like Manor Club for his needs. Being platinum at Manor Club is a not such a little deal.



Years ago, MFs at Manor Club were a steal. Back in 2007 and earlier they were very low and people were snapping up Manor Club as a cheap trader. That came crashing down with double digit percentage increases two years in a row in 2008 and 2009. So today, Manor Club is much more on par with the Orlando platinum 2BR units.

*Comparison using 2013 MFs*
Manor Club Original and Sequel 2BR Platinum - $1095
Grande Vista 2BR Platinum - $1028.26
Harbour Lake 2BR Platinum - $1035.36


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 16, 2014)

I spoke with a non-Marriott resales sales person regarding eBay resales of legacy weeks vs. DC points..... She feels (and has no skin in a transaction) that Marriott will continue to exercise ROFR for the cheap eBay & Red Week listings etc in order to steer people into the DC points.  

She went on to say that everybody is in fact up in arms about the new $3000 minimum DC fees (and $500 per 250 points BI) but feels people will still purchase the resale points because it will be cheaper than buying from Marriott by $6-8 per point.

She went on to say that the DC MF will be less than somebody who may acquire for example 3 resale weeks who will have to pay MF for each week and possibly special assessments for each individual property that they hold.

Finally, she mentions the fact that people want more flexibility with their travel schedules as opposed to essentially being locked into a 7 day trip.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 16, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> She went on to say that the DC MF will be less than somebody who may acquire for example 3 resale weeks who will have to pay MF for each week and possibly special assessments for each individual property that they hold.



Special assessments for Marriott resorts are pretty rare, though not unheard of. Though MFs on a week, or even three weeks can be far cheaper than the equivalent number of points. Consider peak season Grande Ocean. That requires 5,400 DC points in an OF unit or $2430 in DC MFs. If you bought a Platinum Grande Ocean OF, the MFs would be closer to $1200 or half of what the MFs are under DC. Resale purchase price would be a lot cheaper for the week vs retail or even resale DC points.

Someone who has three resale weeks could potentially have up to six weeks of usage. They may have fees of only about $3000 but the equivalent amount of DC points could be far higher.

Determining whether to purchase resale weeks or points doesn't come down to MFs, it really comes down to how you plan to actually use your vacation time. If stays of less than seven nights is important, perhaps DC points is the way to go. But if you can travel for seven nights at a time, getting a resale week is by far the ideal option.


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## Beefnot (Jul 16, 2014)

I wonder if most folks who are purchasing DC points, at least TUGgers, looking to pay nosebleed pricing to obtain vacation of less than a week or alternatively to be able to top off their vacations with additional days in the same resort or elsewhere for that matter. I haven't done any math, but if the latter, I wonder how much cheaper it is over say a 15 year period to just do MOD rentals for those topoffs. 

<An aside> Well look at that... where do I find that secret TUG forum with the boiled pizza recipe?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 16, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I wonder if most folks who are purchasing DC points, at least TUGgers, looking to pay nosebleed pricing to obtain vacation of less than a week or alternatively to be able to top off their vacations with additional days in the same resort or elsewhere for that matter. I haven't done any math, but if the latter, I wonder how much cheaper it is over say a 15 year period to just do MOD rentals for those topoffs.
> 
> <An aside> Well look at that... where do I find that secret TUG forum with the boiled pizza recipe?



Well look at that!  Congratulations on your 3,000th, and thanks for your contributions.  But don't get too ahead of yourself - first you have to learn the secret handshake then you can get in line for the recipe.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 16, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I wonder if most folks who are purchasing DC points, at least TUGgers, looking to pay nosebleed pricing to obtain vacation of less than a week or alternatively to be able to top off their vacations with additional days in the same resort or elsewhere for that matter. I haven't done any math, but if the latter, I wonder how much cheaper it is over say a 15 year period to just do MOD rentals for those topoffs.
> 
> <An aside> Well look at that... where do I find that secret TUG forum with the boiled pizza recipe?



I would agree, using MOD to top off for one or two night reservations is always a good option. Though I don't know how practical it is for peak season reservations, of course DC points may not be any more practical either.

The secret forum is here.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 16, 2014)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  Now THERE's an exercise in futility!


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## jme (Jul 17, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, using MOD to top off for one or two night reservations is always a good option. Though I don't know how practical it is for peak season reservations, of course DC points may not be any more practical either.
> 
> The secret forum is here.



LOL....great one.

I wonder how many will Google "my cursor isn't working?"


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## marileehaire (Jul 17, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> How recent were these transaction though? Were they not a few years ago? I agree, ROFR was not a concern between 2008 and early to mid 2013. Weeks were getting through for great bargains. The same can't be said today.
> 
> Saintsfanfl has recorded nine entries in the ROFR in the past 12 months. Of those, only THREE have passed. That is a pretty low success rate. I think you might have trouble similar transaction through today vs a few years ago when you did.
> 
> I still agree though, bid away and get the best deal you can. At some piont you might be successful. Probably sooner rather than later. Though it might take longer these days. Many people might run out of patience.



I recently purchased 3 lock-off Marriott weeks on the resale market (since January 2014) and none of them was ROFRd. The most that I paid was $510 plus closing and the least was $50. Maintenance fees are reasonable and I've already exchanged 4 of the 6 weeks successfully. The last 2 weeks are holding down pending requests. I am a happy owner! :whoopie:


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 17, 2014)

lablover said:


> I recently purchased 3 lock-off Marriott weeks on the resale market (since January 2014) and none of them was ROFRd. The most that I paid was $510 plus closing and the least was $50. Maintenance fees are reasonable and I've already exchanged 4 of the 6 weeks successfully. The last 2 weeks are holding down pending requests. I am a happy owner! :whoopie:



Very interesting.  How/where were these resales acquired (e.g. eBay, Redweek, Craigslist, other)?


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## budnj (Jul 17, 2014)

GregT said:


> Yes, that's the current market price for one of those Gold weeks.  I agree with Dioxide that the people asking $20K will never sell their units -- nor will they sell them for $5K.
> 
> Traditional week ownership continues to look attractive (if you will use it for personal use) versus points ownership.
> 
> ...



Greg, agree with you. In my somewhat limited experience, I'm not seeing very much consecutive 7 night availability at the places I want to go to. Just tried adding 3 "before" nights to mid September Aruba trip, only first and third were available, so I booked middle night with MOD rate. I must have gotten the only "3rd" night that was available, it's not showing up any more. I realize that Aruba has a lousy point exchange, but I know they're still selling them!


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 17, 2014)

True that the bulks have been mostly off season, but I've been successful at getting Spring break every year for the past 4 years and Christmas for 3 years now. Some have been a few months in advance, some a few months. I would agree it is more difficult but not impossible as it seems to pop up every year so far.



dioxide45 said:


> THe only problem with a lot of the bulks is that you have to be willing to travel in off/shoulder season and/or on short notice. So this works great for  a small subset of owners (of which you and I are members of) but not so much for many others. A lot of people are tied to school schedules and peak times. So these bulks don't always work well.
> 
> If you are able to travel in the off season and on short notice, nothing beats a resale week. One can often use a resale gold week which can be picked up pretty cheap with decent MFs. We enjoy traveling in the shoulder season but sometimes travel on one of the less peak holidays like Labor Day, Memorial Day or Thanksgiving. While popular holidays, they are usually in the school calendar, so they are lesser demand compared to Easter, Christmas and July 4th.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 17, 2014)

JIMinNC said:


> For those of us who were late to the party, we had no choice but to buy DC points in some fashion. For all the reasons you mentioned in your preamble to you full post, we could not see how paying full retail could ever make sense, so we settled on the combo/hybrid approach to average down our cost to around $7/point. Still not a _great_ deal, but it was our only way to get in at this point. And as I said in my post above, non-enrolled resale weeks just don't work that well for us because they force us into 7 night stays.



I wouldn't say that you have 'No Choice". There is no requirement that you have to use DC points to get into a resort. The problem I see is that the the cost is still too high to get into with no guarantee that there is availability even if you do have the points. The amount of points required to get into a high demand area like Hawaii makes it cost prohibitive. 

For what it costs to buy resale and trade in for a week at less than $700, I think that is just about as much as what you would pay to reserve a few days using DC points and the MF associated with it. 1750 DC @ $0.40 MF is about $700. So I'm fine with reserving two weeks and using it for 11 days if I need to and it is still cheaper than the MF of the DC points, let alone the cost to buy in.


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## marileehaire (Jul 17, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Very interesting.  How/where were these resales acquired (e.g. eBay, Redweek, Craigslist, other)?



They were all eBay.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 17, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> I wouldn't say that you have 'No Choice". There is no requirement that you have to use DC points to get into a resort. The problem I see is that the the cost is still too high to get into with no guarantee that there is availability even if you do have the points.



But there is no guarantee that you will be able to trade in with weeks either. And with weeks, you are stuck with staying seven days. With DC points we can do multiple 2 or 3 day stays. A three-day spring/fall long weekend at Harbour Point or Sunset Point in Hilton Head would be 550 points. With the 3375 points we now own (1625 legacy/1750 Trust), we can do six three-day weekends that would probably cost us $4,000 to $5,000 to rent those 18 days. Can't do that with weeks.



Quadmaniac said:


> The amount of points required to get into a high demand area like Hawaii makes it cost prohibitive.



A high season week in a 1BR Garden View at Maui Ocean Club is 3550 points. At $0.45 MF for points, that is about $1,600. That same week in a 1BR GV would cost about $4,000 on Marriott.com. Even a 6700 point high season 2BR OV equates to about $3000, and while I've never seen 2BR MOC inventory on Marriott.com, 2BR condos in Kaanapali seem to rent for over $700/night (close to $5000 per week). Sure, cheaper rentals may be available direct from owners, but I have never been comfortable with consumer-to-consumer rentals and prefer to go through traditional booking channels for peace of mind.



Quadmaniac said:


> For what it costs to buy resale and trade in for a week at less than $700, I think that is just about as much as what you would pay to reserve a few days using DC points and the MF associated with it. 1750 DC @ $0.40 MF is about $700. So I'm fine with reserving two weeks and using it for 11 days if I need to and it is still cheaper than the MF of the DC points, let alone the cost to buy in.



Again, if seven-day or longer stays is what you want, weeks are unquestionably a much cheaper way to go. My problem with weeks are the lack of flexibility. There are very few places I want to go and stay seven days. Unless it is a long way away (like Hawaii) we will likely shoot for shorter than seven days more often than not. We will be eager to get "into the system" to evaluate availability in the 10-month window.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 17, 2014)

JIMinNC said:


> But there is no guarantee that you will be able to trade in with weeks either. And with weeks, you are stuck with staying seven days. With DC points we can do multiple 2 or 3 day stays. A three-day spring/fall long weekend at Harbour Point or Sunset Point in Hilton Head would be 550 points. With the 3375 points we now own (1625 legacy/1750 Trust), we can do six three-day weekends that would probably cost us $4,000 to $5,000 to rent those 18 days. Can't do that with weeks



Very true there are no guarantee with weeks either but I would rather risk $500 initial cost vs $20K+. Depending where you are located determines the feasibility of weekend stays. Anywhere I go to will be by plane and it is usually a week or possibly 4 days in Vegas. My Vegas trips, I just use a cheap XYZ and I am good to go.





JIMinNC said:


> A high season week in a 1BR Garden View at Maui Ocean Club is 3550 points. At $0.45 MF for points, that is about $1,600. That same week in a 1BR GV would cost about $4,000 on Marriott.com. Even a 6700 point high season 2BR OV equates to about $3000, and while I've never seen 2BR MOC inventory on Marriott.com, 2BR condos in Kaanapali seem to rent for over $700/night (close to $5000 per week). Sure, cheaper rentals may be available direct from owners, but I have never been comfortable with consumer-to-consumer rentals and prefer to go through traditional booking channels for peace of mind.



It is easy to rent 1 br at MOC for 13-1600 right now. Comparing it to full retail is the same argument TS salespeople use. I personally would not pay $4000 for 1 br GV. It all depends on comfort but if that is what it takes for you to be comfortable, that's pretty expensive comfort. My 2 x 2br MOC in the new towers in September end up costing $1400 with exchange fees. So you would not feel comfortable renting from another TUG member ?




JIMinNC said:


> Again, if seven-day or longer stays is what you want, weeks are unquestionably a much cheaper way to go. My problem with weeks are the lack of flexibility. There are very few places I want to go and stay seven days. Unless it is a long way away (like Hawaii) we will likely shoot for shorter than seven days more often than not. We will be eager to get "into the system" to evaluate availability in the 10-month window.



I guess it is a matter of where you travel is part of the consideration as much as how. Look at the overall cost of points to stay during that time and what the associated MF are but also factor in the cost of to purchase those points into the equation as well as that is your overall cost to stay for that weekend, not just the MF.


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## marileehaire (Jul 17, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> Very true there are no guarantee with weeks either but I would rather risk $500 initial cost vs $20K+. Depending where you are located determines the feasibility of weekend stays. Anywhere I go to will be by plane and it is usually a week or possibly 4 days in Vegas. My Vegas trips, I just use a cheap XYZ and I am good to go.
> 
> Your observations are spot on, in my opinion, Quadmaniac. We NEVER want to go somewhere for fewer than 7 days. Like you, we travel by air about 98% of the time, and staying somewhere fewer than 7 days would be a total waste. Even if one had to ditch the last day or two, securing TWO 2-bedroom exchange weeks via one owned lock-off week (bought resale for next to nothing with maintenance fees of roughly $1000 to $1200/year) is SO much more cost effective. Again, just my experience and opinion. . .I am a Destinations member, but will never elect points or buy any. Joined at the roll-out for the fee structure only and because I could roll everything I owned into that account at the time.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 17, 2014)

Quadmaniac said:


> Very true there are no guarantee with weeks either but I would rather risk $500 initial cost vs $20K+. Depending where you are located determines the feasibility of weekend stays. Anywhere I go to will be by plane and it is usually a week or possibly 4 days in Vegas. My Vegas trips, I just use a cheap XYZ and I am good to go.



I agree, where you live determines the feasibility of shorter trips. Plus, everyone has different travel preferences. In our case, we have eight Marriott resorts in Hilton Head a four hour drive away (or a 90 minute flight - I am a private pilot). That proximity is the main factor that drove us to choose the MVCI system. Prior to buying a weeks-based timeshare 16 years ago, I think most of our trips, even those to the west coast or Caribbean, were 5 days or less. That 7 day limitation has been our biggest issue with weeks-based timeshare - except when we go to Hawaii.



Quadmaniac said:


> It is easy to rent 1 br at MOC for 13-1600 right now. Comparing it to full retail is the same argument TS salespeople use. I personally would not pay $4000 for 1 br GV. It all depends on comfort but if that is what it takes for you to be comfortable, that's pretty expensive comfort. My 2 x 2br MOC in the new towers in September end up costing $1400 with exchange fees. So you would not feel comfortable renting from another TUG member ?



Booking direct is just the way we've always done it, so that is a relevant comparison for the way we travel. Some people are comfortable doing their own DIY projects around the house, some prefer to hire a pro and pay more. Not saying I would never book direct, but it involves a great deal of trust when you don't really know the person you are dealing with. I prefer the security of dealing with an established business entity.

Truth is, we wouldn't pay $4,000 for a 1BR GV week either. We just wouldn't be able to go on that trip. So another way to look at it, is it opens up opportunities we would never be able to do at retail rates. I know we would never have been able to take six trips to Hawaii since 1999 if we had not purchased our original Hawaii timeshare. Even factoring in a 3% annual opportunity cost of the initial purchase price, we have still recouped our initial purchase cost in the value of the vacations taken.



Quadmaniac said:


> I guess it is a matter of where you travel is part of the consideration as much as how. Look at the overall cost of points to stay during that time and what the associated MF are but also factor in the cost of to purchase those points into the equation as well as that is your overall cost to stay for that weekend, not just the MF.



Absolutely. But in the examples I gave in the other post, MF costs are less than half the retail rental rates we would have to pay the way we would likely book a weekend stay or longer trip. With that differential, we easily recoup the purchase price over time as we have with our old Hawaii week. But as I said above - the real impact is allowing us to take trips we probably would not choose to take if we had to book the nights for cash.

But the important thing is this approach is right for us. For those of you who almost always like to travel in 7 day increments, a weeks based ownership or rental approach makes far more sense than Points.


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## Fasttr (Jul 17, 2014)

Quadmaniac and JIMinNC, you guys are debating 7 night vs less than 7 night stays.  Keep in mind, for people like Quad, who fly to where they go, having the added flexibility of the DC allows you to have, as examples, a 10 or 11 night stay as well.  The debate doesn't have to be just 7 nights or less than 7 nights.  The DC allows you the flexibility to enjoy any ressie length.  You can also work the system and book your midweek nights with DC points and your weekend nights with MOD rates, etc, to help you keep your overall costs down and stretch your points into more nights.  

Just tossing more info out there to add fuel to the debate.


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## Beefnot (Jul 17, 2014)

JIMinNC said:


> That 7 day limitation has been our biggest issue with weeks-based timeshare - except when we go to Hawaii.
> 
> Booking direct is just the way we've always done it, so that is a relevant comparison for the way we travel.
> 
> But as I said above - the real impact is allowing us to take trips we probably would not choose to take if we had to book the nights for cash.



There is no requirement that one stay the entire 7 days, unless one is tormented psychologically by letting that "value" be wasted. With XYZ trades, ACs, and cheap traders, and MOD discounts, I really do not understand the value of DC to most TUGgers. Sure, the bonus weeks can go away, and once they actually dry up, especially the shoulder season stuff that bonus weeks are good for (and when some of those weekend DC getaways might be used for), then perhaps DC could make financial sense.

The way one has always done something seems a bit shallow. If you have a commute that takes you an hour each way and I teach you two new routes, one a quick shortcut that cuts your commute by 75% and another one that shaves 15 min, why would you opt for the slightly shorter route and only compare it to your original route? If your fundamental rationale is that the shortcut requires driving through back woods (like if the risk of renting from other owners really turns your stomach), fair enough I guess, although that fear could be alleviated by following the guidance of others with experience.

If you had to book nights for cash, I would agree that most folks wouldn't otherwise take the trips. That is the fundamental allure of vacation ownership, "prepaid vacations". But if folks could psychologically force themselves to sock that developer purchase money into a separate vacation savings account and followed the leadership of experienced guides, I would expect that they could stretch their dollars much, much further than the developer route.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 17, 2014)

I think everyone in this thread has a pretty good idea of how the various ownership options work as well as the various ways of lessening the costs of any trips.  The one thing that may not be as completely understood is that, for some people, convenience and security have price tags that are sometimes worth paying.

I completely understand and share Jim's point of view here. If you don't, that's okay - it's certainly not the prevailing TUG mindset.  But for what he wants to accomplish, within the confines of his comfort zone, I think he's on the right track.

Nothing to add, I just want Jim to know that there are others here who think like he does.


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## Beefnot (Jul 17, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> I think everyone in this thread has a pretty good idea of how the various ownership options work as well as the various ways of lessening the costs of any trips. The one thing that may not be as completely understood is that, for some people, convenience and security have price tags that are sometimes worth paying.
> 
> I completely understand and share Jim's point of view here. If you don't, that's okay - it's certainly not the prevailing TUG mindset. But for what he wants to accomplish, within the confines of his comfort zone, I think he's on the right track.
> 
> Nothing to add, I just want Jim to know that there are others here who think like he does.



Yes Sue, we have always known you were in that camp, you have made it clear. And if money were no object, I would be right there with you!


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## SueDonJ (Jul 17, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> Yes Sue, we have always known you were in that camp, you have made it clear. And if money were no object, I would be right there with you!



Every time you say it I feel a little less good about myself.  That's why I join in these discussions, why my mindset is so well known, because it seems that sometimes on TUG it's not okay to say that you're willing to pay for comfort.

It's not that, "money is no object," nothing like that at all.  It's that I'm only so comfortable with certain things and can't breach that wall where saving money is more important than that comfort level.

If money were no object I'd go wherever and do whatever, whenever the mood hit.  That's not my life!  All of us here seem to do the same responsible thing - set a budget for travel and work within it.  There's no doubt that with the same amount of money I budget, you could and would travel more.  More power to you!  But there's also no doubt that if we were to get into it, we'd find things on which you spend money that I wouldn't go near.  Can't we just agree that neither of us needs to feel belittled for the choices we make, the mindsets that lead us to our spending habits?


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## Fasttr (Jul 17, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> With XYZ trades, ACs, and cheap traders, and MOD discounts, I really do not understand the value of DC to most TUGgers. Sure, the bonus weeks can go away, and once they actually dry up, especially the shoulder season stuff that bonus weeks are good for (and when some of those weekend DC getaways might be used for), then perhaps DC could make financial sense.



One thing that many weeks folks may not realize, is that we pure DC members (Trust only...no weeks) still are eligible for, and do get the annual bonus AC's that II tosses out there.  I have gotten one each summer/late summer and I have never done anything in II.  I realize we don't get one for depositing a week, or get XYZ's (whatever they are), but we do still get the bonus AC perk.  We are eligible for the MOD rate too.


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## Beefnot (Jul 17, 2014)

I hear you Sue. I really do not intend to belittle anyone (except you...j/k), but to point out rational explanations that I do not follow. If someone truly has a phobia about something, that's fair enough, I get it, it somewhat is beyond logical debate. 

 I would think you would agree, however, that we would not seek for TUG to be an amen corner for every notion. Rather it is a forum to learn, educate, and entertain. Often that entails healthy, and sometimes vigorous, debate.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 17, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I hear you Sue. I really do not intend to belittle anyone (except you...j/k), but to point out rational explanations that I do not follow. If someone truly has a phobia about something, that's fair enough, I get it, it somewhat is beyond logical debate.
> 
> I would think you would agree, however, that we would not seek for TUG to be an amen corner for every notion. Rather it is a forum to learn, educate, and entertain. Often that entails healthy, and sometimes vigorous, debate.



Agreed completely.  If Jim here weren't educated about all the particulars then any of us would be doing him a disservice if we didn't share what we know.  But if there's a problem here it isn't that Jim is under- or mis-educated.

I still have a bone to pick with your objections, or at least the way you categorize them.  It's not "illogical" or "irrational" to place a value on comfort factors, and they aren't "phobias" in the truest sense of the word.  Just because you don't share them doesn't make them something beyond reasonable thinking.  Categorizing them, defining them, as you do infers that the holder lacks a certain "normal" brain function and that simply isn't the case at all.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 17, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> One thing that many weeks folks may not realize, is that we pure DC members (Trust only...no weeks) still are eligible for, and do get the annual bonus AC's that II tosses out there.  I have gotten one each summer/late summer and I have never done anything in II.  I realize we don't get one for depositing a week, or get XYZ's (whatever they are), but we do still get the bonus AC perk.  We are eligible for the MOD rate too.



If you're using those AC's you should check out the XYZ sticky thread in the Sightings/Distressed forum.  I thought you can get XYZ's off of those AC exchanges ...


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## JIMinNC (Jul 17, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> I think everyone in this thread has a pretty good idea of how the various ownership options work as well as the various ways of lessening the costs of any trips.  The one thing that may not be as completely understood is that, for some people, convenience and security have price tags that are sometimes worth paying.
> 
> I completely understand and share Jim's point of view here. If you don't, that's okay - it's certainly not the prevailing TUG mindset.  But for what he wants to accomplish, within the confines of his comfort zone, I think he's on the right track.
> 
> Nothing to add, I just want Jim to know that there are others here who think like he does.



Thanks for the support Sue.

The important thing is that what's the right answer for one person's needs may not be the right answer for someone else. Everybody has a different comfort zone about different things. I'm at home flying around in small planes, some others would never think of doing that. We all have to work within our own needs, desires, and limitations.

And I will point out, that while I think DC Points are the right answer for us, I'm still a raw newbie in this arena and will have lots to learn in the next few years.

Also, while I think points can make sense for some of us, I am 100% in the camp of avoiding paying the full $12.XX retail price to the extent possible. Whether it is a combo/hybrid purchase or a pure resale points purchase, I think buying DC Points right now only makes sense if you can do it at a lower cost per point than retail. I only wish I had been a MVCI owner when I could have enrolled without buying any of those priciest points.


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## Beefnot (Jul 17, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> Agreed completely. If Jim here weren't educated about all the particulars then any of us would be doing him a disservice if we didn't share what we know. But if there's a problem here it isn't that Jim is under- or mis-educated.
> 
> I still have a bone to pick with your objections, or at least the way you categorize them. It's not "illogical" or "irrational" to place a value on comfort factors, and they aren't "phobias" in the truest sense of the word. Just because you don't share them doesn't make them something beyond reasonable thinking. Categorizing them, defining them, as you do infers that the holder lacks a certain "normal" brain function and that simply isn't the case at all.



Even Jim acknowledges that he is a newb. That said, he may be fully educated, or perhaps not. just because someone can vigorously put together coherent sentences in support of an argument does not signify that they are well-informed. Anyone with an open mind to a full set of facts and arguments may be persuaded. If they still decide that something is right for them, be it logically or otherwise, okay, then we eventually disagree. Happens all the time in life and here on TUG.

And I don't know how or why you construe that I suggest a phobia is a lack of "normal" brain function, because I did not. And further, if someone places a higher value on paying exorbitantly more in order to minimize risk, okay, that is their prerogative. I don't get it, and I don't have to. But I am not going to shy away from debating it. We debate any issue because we have a desire to persuade another that our way of seeing the world may be more accurate, or in their better interests. If after the debate, the other person still does not agree and are happy with their decision, okay and we move on. It's not that deep.


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## budnj (Jul 18, 2014)

*Confession*



dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, using MOD to top off for one or two night reservations is always a good option. Though I don't know how practical it is for peak season reservations, of course DC points may not be any more practical either.
> 
> The secret forum is here.



I went for it.
Give me your phone number at work, I'll call you while I'm having that cold beverage on the beach!


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 18, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> If you're using those AC's you should check out the XYZ sticky thread in the Sightings/Distressed forum.  I thought you can get XYZ's off of those AC exchanges ...



What is AC and XYZ's?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> What is AC and XYZ's?



Check out the FAQ - Marriott Vacation Club Weeks System sticky.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 18, 2014)

Have taken up curiosity about eBay auctions of Marriott TS properties.  Why would something like a floating gold at Canyon Villas (Phoenix) listed at $497.00 (see: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Phoenix-ARIZONA-Gold-Season-LUXURY-RESORT-Premier-TIMESHARE-Deed-/371096416578?pt=Timeshares&hash=item566711f142) get no bids at all?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2014)

lablover said:


> I recently purchased 3 lock-off Marriott weeks on the resale market (since January 2014) and none of them was ROFRd. The most that I paid was $510 plus closing and the least was $50. Maintenance fees are reasonable and I've already exchanged 4 of the 6 weeks successfully. The last 2 weeks are holding down pending requests. I am a happy owner! :whoopie:



The thing however with EBay purchases is that we never really know for sure what the seller submitted for ROFR. You may have paid $510 for the week, but the PCCs tend to bake in their closing costs and commissions and submit a much higher amount for ROFR. Either way, you got some good deals. Did you record these on the ROFR database, I don't see any entries for these amounts.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Have taken up curiosity about eBay auctions of Marriott TS properties.  Why would something like a floating gold at Canyon Villas (Phoenix) listed at $497.00 (see: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Phoenix-ARIZONA-Gold-Season-LUXURY-RESORT-Premier-TIMESHARE-Deed-/371096416578?pt=Timeshares&hash=item566711f142) get no bids at all?



Because it really has very little value. The higher starting bid on this may have prevented the first bidder from coming along also. Another thread on this seller playing ROFR games may be keeping people away from some of these low end Marriott auctions.

Either way, I would think that a gold Palm Desert week is worth less than $1000. I know I wouldn't pay more than that, all fees included.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jul 18, 2014)

I would like to see what a Newport Coast floating gold & floating platinum would go for on eBay. That is something I would consider if a "bargain"


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2014)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I would like to see what a Newport Coast floating gold & floating platinum would go for on eBay. That is something I would consider if a "bargain"



Gold Newport Coast or even the beach South Carolina resorts are another story all together. Those tend to have more demand and people are willing to pay more for them. Those for under $1000 would be a bargain.


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## jont (Jul 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> Because it really has very little value. The higher starting bid on this may have prevented the first bidder from coming along also. Another thread on this seller playing ROFR games may be keeping people away from some of these low end Marriott auctions.
> 
> Either way, I would think that a gold Palm Desert week is worth less than $1000. I know I wouldn't pay more than that, all fees included.



I would not exactly say they have little value. I have gotten some good trades by locking off my CV gold week including a summer studio in Hawaii, Aruba and a Christmas studio at Ocean pointe. Most were studio for studio except for the Hawaii which I used the 1 BR ( it was a wedding gift/ honeymoon for my DW's niece)


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## dioxide45 (Jul 19, 2014)

jont said:


> I would not exactly say they have little value. I have gotten some good trades by locking off my CV gold week including a summer studio in Hawaii, Aruba and a Christmas studio at Ocean pointe. Most were studio for studio except for the Hawaii which I used the 1 BR ( it was a wedding gift/ honeymoon for my DW's niece)



I can't buy emcheap if you keep talkin em up!


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## jont (Jul 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I can't buy emcheap if you keep talkin em up!



Sorry, my bad!


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## marileehaire (Jul 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> The thing however with EBay purchases is that we never really know for sure what the seller submitted for ROFR. You may have paid $510 for the week, but the PCCs tend to bake in their closing costs and commissions and submit a much higher amount for ROFR. Either way, you got some good deals. Did you record these on the ROFR database, I don't see any entries for these amounts.




Yep, they're all there in the database--under name of "Mari." And yes, we DID get some awesome deals. Two of those 3 had no closing costs. I don't know how the seller(s) presented them to Marriott, but frankly I don't care as long as they passed ROFR! We now own 1 developer week (bought before we knew any better for WAY too much $$, IMO) and 4 more resale Marriott weeks bought on eBay. They all are lock offs and I've always locked them off and deposited them that way. I've never exchanged into anything less than a 2 bedroom with either half of a locked off unit (the studio or 1-bedroom) in the almost 7 years that I've been playing this timeshare game! If the bottom falls out of the whole thing sometime in the future, our attitude is that we don't have that much invested and it's been a heck of good ride while it lasted! We haven't ventured to exchange outside of the Marriott family, and have just been pretty much everywhere and to our favorite places multiple times. We bought these resale weeks solely to exchange. Even if we're going to one of our "home" resorts, we trade in with a lesser unit. We never occupy an owned week. It seems crazy to us to buy in a high end location (i.e. the Marriott Waiohai in Kauai), have sky high maintenance fees, and only one week of vacation for the ownership to show for it. With a lock off unit you get 2 vacation weeks for one maintenance fee. We've never had a problem exchanging into places when we want to go, but then don't want to go Christmas week with the throngs of other people, either. Upcoming vacations for us between now and the end of the year include: 2 bedroom Ko Olina next week, 3 bedroom townhome at Lakeshore Reserve in Orlando, 2 bedroom Ford's Colony Williamsburg, 2 bedroom Mountainside Park City, UT, and 2 bedroom Ko Olina Oahu, followed by a 2-bedroom Waiohai Kauai in early December. Our locked off units secured all of these exchanges. I think that key is to purchase decent seasons that will trade well and also to purchase lock-off units. This applies to buying for trading, as has been our interest. If you want to own Hawaii to go there every year during a high demand time, then I'd say "go for it!" We are at a stage in our lives when we do not have to work around a school schedule, so prefer to go when others with (out-of-control) children cannot. No crowds, cheaper air fares, etc. It's all good in timeshare land for us!    Of course when those maintenance fees ALL come due in January, one can hear a little bit of whining coming from our house! Still contend that we would never have been able to experience or afford the awesome vacations that we have, had we not ventured into timeshare ownership--and ownership the way that we did it. Our immediate and extended families have also benefited greatly by invitations extended to them to join us on various trips! One more aside. . .our one Marriott developer week does not trade one bit better than any of the resale weeks that we own.


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