# To buy into points or not??



## Shannon (Feb 15, 2006)

New here on this forum, but have learned alot just by reading.  Here's the question - my husband and I had a phone presentation about switching our weeks timeshare at Vacation Village at Parkway, orlando, FL to points. For the hefty sum of $2500 or so. We never really knew what points were about, and the whole system was explained to us pretty well, i think. The things we liked about points was the ability to use them on shorter stays, etc... That is very attractive to us - alot more practical than going a whole week at a time.
Our week is week 11 which according to the salesperson gives us 97,500 points per year.  Now if i understand this properly, because our resort does weeks and points we could not use the points for deposit option - say if we would get into points through a different timeshare? Bottom Line  - we paid plenty to begin with  4 years ago - maintenance fee is around $600 with taxes and everything - we were NOT going to buy anything or spend anymore money on this timeshare - BUT I think we would use it better with the points system, it fits into our lifestyle better, i think we could get more vacation for our $?  Opinions please.
Thanks  Shannon


----------



## timeos2 (Feb 15, 2006)

*It's your time - use it as you want*

There will be those here, even "points people", who say not to do that change. I would disagree. You know that the current set up of weeks doesn't work well for you. You see a better option in points. The cost of $2500 is more than other resorts BUT you don't own them you own VV.  The maintenance fee/point isn't bad at all. 

I would vote to do it if you feel a points system will better serve your needs. I know the change to points (in multiple systems  - I wish they were all in one) certainly has improved our enjoyment of our timeshares.  Do it.


----------



## "Roger" (Feb 15, 2006)

I'm with John.  There are people who will tell you to sell your resort, buy a resale, combine it with Points for Deposit (at another resort), etc. etc. and you will come out so many percentages of a cent per point ahead.  I am sure they are right, but, timesharing should not become a full time job.

It sounds as if you bought at developer prices.  Don't worry about it.  Most of us did (at least for our first purchase).  Apparently you liked the resort and don't lose sight of that.

With regard to the $2,500 fee that is pretty much what I faced (after having paid developer prices for my timeshare to begin with).  I was able to recoup that cost within three years with the *extra * value I got out of what I already had.  I can't say anything like that (three year recovery period) with regard to my original purchase of the timeshare itself.  Now, the $2,500 is long history, I have all the flexibility of points, and, any additional benefits is gravy.

I might add that you have even more flexibility in that you have a lockout.  If, in a given year, you want to go to your own unit and enjoy your home resort, you can still deposit part of it into Points and get points that year too.

Regardless of what you decide, good luck (and let timesharing continue to be fun).


----------



## brucecz (Feb 15, 2006)

Welcome, your present point cost ratio for your ownership if converted to RCI Points of .615 cents per point is pretty good.  

If the fexabilty of RCI points meets you wants and needs far better than regular weeks at this resort would, then I agree with the first two replys seeing that this ownership can not be used RCI for points unless it is converted.

IMHO I would suggest that you join Tug to gain access to the resort reviews to better know what you will be trading into with your RCI Points.

Bruce


----------



## JillChang (Feb 15, 2006)

I also own at VVP week 12 which also gives me 92,500.  I was told to convert to point is $2950.  So I now know it can be had for $2500.  I also face the same decision.  I think I will do it in the end, I saw several RCI points for sale that gives the same points and sold for more than $4000 on ebay.  Although some of those have lower MF, but the package usually includes other weeks for points for deposit combined to arrive at the near 100K points.  I think that is too much to manage.

Lucky me I bought VVP resale and save a lot alreay thanks to the tuggers, but I have a feeling that if I wait a little longer, the resort might just drop its price to convert.   Any chance of that happening?


----------



## ouaifer (Feb 16, 2006)

*Warning to THOSE who are very opinionated on this subject!!*

Just a *pre-heads up* to some  (and *you* know who you are)!  Any personal banter will *NOT *  be tolerated.  If you find it necessary to take the bait from one another, do so in personal e-mails, not on this board.  

ouaifer
Moderator


----------



## BocaBum99 (Feb 16, 2006)

This is a tough call.  Normally, I would say forget about paying over $2000 to convert a week.  But in this case, you get a lot of points for your conversion and you get a great mf/point ratio.

It would probably cost you $5000 to buy an equivalent week already converted.

Here's how I would make the decision.  If you believe you can sell your week for $3000 or more, then I would sell it and buy some points that are already converted.  If you don't think you can get that much, then do it.


----------



## JillChang (Feb 16, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> This is a tough call.  Normally, I would say forget about paying over $2000 to convert a week.  But in this case, you get a lot of points for your conversion and you get a great mf/point ratio.
> 
> It would probably cost you $5000 to buy an equivalent week already converted.
> 
> Here's how I would make the decision.  If you believe you can sell your week for $3000 or more, then I would sell it and buy some points that are already converted.  If you don't think you can get that much, then do it.



I bought my VVP resale for a LOT less than $3000


----------



## BocaBum99 (Feb 16, 2006)

JillChang said:
			
		

> I bought my VVP resale for a LOT less than $3000



Then converting your week may make sense since you can sell it for probably $5000 when you're ready.


----------



## Shannon (Feb 16, 2006)

*great advice*

Thanks for all your opinions everyone - I think we will probably go with buying into the points, though it does go down pretty hard to shell out the $$. However, while trying to resell our week and get another in the points sytem seems to make the most $ sense, frankly - I don't have the time or the desire to have that headache. This week is done bought and paid for and we're just trying to forget how much we paid.   i wish i had researched everything properly and checked out this site. On the upside, we really like our resort and we really like taking vacations using this system in general ( as long as we can afford to do our 2 weeks a year) so I think that the points system will work good for us. Thanks for all your help!  Shannon


----------



## JudyS (Feb 16, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> This is a tough call.  Normally, I would say forget about paying over $2000 to convert a week.  But in this case, you get a lot of points for your conversion and you get a great mf/point ratio.


I second Boca's ideas here.



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> It would probably cost you $5000 to buy an equivalent week already converted....


Boca, have you been keeping track of what converted weeks cost?  Or, is this an estimate based on the resort's low annual fee?  Also, do you feel that this resort is worth more because it's in the US, so no worries about the dollar's exchange value?  

I'm thinking I should start a post on the fine points of valuing RCI Points contracts.


To the folks thinking of converting at VVP -- you might try haggling with the people doing the conversion.  It can't hurt.  And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the conversion price comes down at some point in the future -- although probably not until they've gotten steep conversion fees out of everyone that they think they can.


----------



## boyblue (Feb 16, 2006)

Shannon,
you're in a pretty good position.  As long as you are prepared leave your unit unconverted you can probably name your price.  Why not offer $1,800.00.  If they turn it down wait a while and offer again.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Feb 16, 2006)

JudyS said:
			
		

> I second Boca's ideas here.
> 
> Boca, have you been keeping track of what converted weeks cost?  Or, is this an estimate based on the resort's low annual fee?  Also, do you feel that this resort is worth more because it's in the US, so no worries about the dollar's exchange value?
> 
> ...



Not tracking, but eyeballing.  I noticed that many RCI point auctions on eBay were selling around $.04-.05/rci point depending on the $MF/rci point ratio.


----------



## JudyS (Feb 16, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Not tracking, but eyeballing.  I noticed that many RCI point auctions on eBay were selling around $.04-.05/rci point depending on the $MF/rci point ratio.



Thanks, Boca.  Is that just the sales price, or does that include RCI account, closing, and maybe first year's MF, the way some Aussie points packages do?


----------



## jules54 (Feb 16, 2006)

Shannon,
I would go with the offer them less money. Or ask for more ponts for the same amount of money to convert. It's the developers game. Just suit up and play. All they can say is no thanks. but don't worry they will always take your money later.


----------



## "Roger" (Feb 16, 2006)

Obviously I can't say with absolute certainty that they won't take less money, but I seen this suggested occasionally ever since Points were offered.  I have yet to see anyone report on TUG that a resort took up a lower offer.  (Lower offers on initial purchases, yes;  on conversion fees, never seen it work.)


----------



## PA- (Feb 16, 2006)

1)  Everything's negotiable.  Especially that $2500 fee.  If you tell them you'll do it for $1000 or not at all, and not to call back until/unless the price reaches $1000 (and stick to it), you'll probably get it for that.

2)  I'm guessing that, at that price, you'll regret the day you joined points.  While points is better, in my opinion, than weeks, I wouldn't pay $1000 to join ANY exchange company.  And I certainly wouldn't consider spending $2500.  Do you realize how many great exchanges it's going to take before you feel that you've recouped the money???  you should live so long.

3)  The ability to get nightly rooms is vastly overestimated.  Points values for Standard reservations is usually MUCH higher than for Weeks reservations.  What that means is you may pay more points for a 3 night reservation through points than for an entire week through the WEEKS RESERVATION side of RCI Points.  

If you don't use what you have, you might consider dumping it, rather than throwing good money after bad.


----------



## cclendinen (Feb 17, 2006)

*Another option.*

Vacation Village at Parkway is managed by Daily Management Inc. which also manages the Vacation Village at Weston, Vacation Village at Bonaventure , Mitzer Place at Weston and many more.  

When I was considering purchasing points one option I explored was buying cheap Vacation Village prosperities in weeks and convert it to points.   What I found out at the time (This has been a while and may no longer be true), was the properties managed by this group, (Daily) that your first points conversion was expensive but additional conversion were much cheaper ($795.00 to the best of my recollection).  

So, because the points resorts managed by Daily all seemed to have very good maintenance cost-per-point for a US resort, (less that $.01), I considered buying multiple weeks resorts on the resale market cheap, converting them to points, and selling what I did not need at a greater price than the purchase + conversion cost.  I did not go this route because I found cheap already converted weeks with maintenance less than $.01 per point.

Consider the following example: A 2br 2 baths at Vacation Village at Parkway week #49 maintenance $550.00 recently sold on ebay for $1236.00 ($837.00 bid + $399.00 transfer).  This week (lowest # of points for any week at the resort) would convert into 55,500 points.   The cost for this as a point resort would be $2,031.00($837.00 bid + $399.00 transfer + $795.00 conversion (this assumes lower conversion cost for additional conversions)).  The purchase cost-per-point is $.037 ($2,031.00 / 55,500 points).   The maintenance cost per point is $.0099 ($550.00 maintenance / 55,500 points).

Consider this additional example: A 2br 2 baths lockout at Vacation Village at Boneventure week #30 maintenance $674.00 recently sold on ebay for $799.00 ($499.00 bid + $300.00 closing).  This will convert to 75,500 points.  The cost for the point resort $1594.00(($499.00 bid + $300.00 closing + $795.00 point conversion (assumes lower additional conversion cost)).  The purchase cost-per-point is $.021 ($1,594.00 / 75,500 points).   The maintenance cost per point is $.009 ($674.00 maintenance / 75,500 points).

Consider this last example: A 2br 2 baths lockout at Vacation Village at Weston week #28 maintenance $459.00 taxes $185.00(guesstimate) went unsold on a no reserve ebay auction at a opening bid of $65.00.   So someone could have bought it for $415.00 ($65.00 bid + $350.00 closing).  This will convert to 86,500 points.  The cost for the point resort $1210.00(($65.00 bid + $350.00 closing + $795.00 point conversion (assumes lower additional conversion cost)).  The purchase cost-per-point is $.014 ($1,210.00 / 86,500 points).   The maintenance cost per point is $.0074 ($459.00 maintenance + $185.00 taxes (guesstimate) / 86,500 points).

Of course I don’t know if you can still convert additional properties at a reduced rate or if the Daily management group will let you do this for all the properties they manage.  But when I was researching my initial points purchase I found that there were resorts, or the brokers that did the points conversion for the resorts, that offered discounted point conversions for additional conversions either at the same resort or any of the resorts in the group.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Feb 17, 2006)

*I would probably do it.*

That is similar to what we paid for a similar number of Australia points, but your maintenance fee is lower (ours is $698).  I would offer less than the $2,500 and see if they bite, but I think that is a good value.

The question I would ask myself:  Are those points going to stay in that range or if they will drop when the salespeople are gone?  Other Orlando resorts are not valued that high.  I would also consider that the MF's may rise at that time as well.  Those are low fees for that resort for now, but what kind of condition is the developer going to leave those units in, after all units are sold?  I imagine that you will pay some special assessments or large MF increases to keep the units in top shape.  I am basing that on the fact that most GC Orlando timeshares have much higher fees.  

Of course, you already own, so you will likely face higher MF's anyway.  I think developers purposely keep them low in order to impress buyers.


----------



## JillChang (Feb 18, 2006)

cclendinen said:
			
		

> Vacation Village at Parkway is managed by Daily Management Inc. which also manages the Vacation Village at Weston, Vacation Village at Bonaventure , Mitzer Place at Weston and many more.
> 
> When I was considering purchasing points one option I explored was buying cheap Vacation Village prosperities in weeks and convert it to points.   What I found out at the time (This has been a while and may no longer be true), was the properties managed by this group, (Daily) that your first points conversion was expensive but additional conversion were much cheaper ($795.00 to the best of my recollection).



When I call VVP, it is very hard to get hold of anyone to ask about conversion, and I have never heard of thie $799 for additional unit.  Can you tell me who you talked to?


----------



## cclendinen (Feb 18, 2006)

*Start with the Sales Office, but it might not be the right department.*

When I was researching this I talked to either the Weston or Boneventure office, it was not Parkway.   It has been a few years and I don't remember who or what department at the resort.  I would start by asking for the sales office, but some resorts have a different group that deals with relales and points conversions for existing owners.  Also some resorts have a outside broker that handels point conversion.  I believe the they were doing the points conversions internally.

You might also try to contact Daily Management Inc.


----------



## "Roger" (Feb 18, 2006)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The question I would ask myself:  ... Other Orlando resorts are not valued that high.  ....



That depends upon whether the 97,500 is typo.  (The listed point value is 92,500.) Vacation Villiage two bedroom units are actually two, one bedroom units that share a common entry way.  The value put on the individual one bedroom units are 42,500 (for the B side and 50,000 (for the A side, adding together to 92,500 points cited in the Points catalogue).  Gold Crown one bedroom units in Orlando go for from 39,000 up to 63,000 (with something in the neighborhood of 50,000 being fairly common).  

92,500 would be high for a two bedroom, but, since you can deposit the two sides separately, RCI gives this as the assigned point value for the entire two bedroom unit.  This is consistent with how they handle lockouts elsewhere in the country.


----------



## RAN (Feb 18, 2006)

*Q's about value of buying or owning points?*

I am totally new to points, and know nothing! It seems to me to be buying "air"? Who sets the points trade values for all the exchange companies, and what prevents those points values that you have bought from being altered at THEIR will, without any control on your part as purchaser? At least as an owner of a deeded week, I know what I have! I heard from one deeded week owner that, once converted, no longer had access to her week to use!

Have any points owners used their points to go to other than their own resort with success?


----------



## huestous (Feb 18, 2006)

RAN said:
			
		

> I am totally new to points, and know nothing! It seems to me to be buying "air"? Who sets the points trade values for all the exchange companies, and what prevents those points values that you have bought from being altered at THEIR will, without any control on your part as purchaser? At least as an owner of a deeded week, I know what I have! I heard from one deeded week owner that, once converted, no longer had access to her week to use!
> 
> Have any points owners used their points to go to other than their own resort with success?


When you convert a deeded week into the RCI points program you still own the deeded week, and you still have access to that week to use within the stipulations of the program.  You have a preferred booking window that allows you to reserve your week before other points members can see the availability.  However, if you do not reserve your week before the membership at large is given access, then it may not be available to you.

You are given the option to continue with RCI points every three years.  If you choose to remain in the points program, then you are granting the use of your week (within the guidelines of the program) to RCI for another three year period.  While within the RCI points program you cannot exchange your week with another exchange company - you have granted that week to RCI for the contracted period of time.


----------



## timeos2 (Feb 18, 2006)

*2 years have given us*



			
				RAN said:
			
		

> Have any points owners used their points to go to other than their own resort with success?


Strictly speaking of RCI Points here are our first two years of non-home resort uses:

Carlsbad Seapointe 2BR Presidents week 2004
Westin Vacation Village - 1 BR "A" Side 3/03, 12/03
Ft Lauderdale Beach Club 2BR - 12/03
Vacation Village Parkway 1 BR 9/03 (got to go through a hurricane!)
Summer Bay Orlando  2BR 8/05
Future stays:
San Diego Country Estates 2BR 2/06 
Manhattan Club 1BR 3/06 
Eastern Slope Inn Townhomes 1BR  8/06

Our home resort fior RCI Points is Rayburn County in Texas but, so far, we've never even seen it.  All the resorts are Gold or Silver crown level. So I guess we have had success using resorts other than our home. We also own Fairfiled and Sunterra points so if we added those the list would be much longer.  Points is the way to go for us.


----------



## "Roger" (Feb 18, 2006)

RAN said:
			
		

> I am totally new to points, and know nothing! It seems to me to be buying "air"? ..


I'll presume thoughout that you are talking about RCI Points.  As mentioned by others, you keep your deed.


			
				RAN said:
			
		

> ...
> Who sets the points trade values for all the exchange companies, and what prevents those points values that you have bought from being altered at THEIR will, without any control on your part as purchaser?


RCI does.  Just like they set the trading value of your unit within their Weeks system.  However, you can see what your trading value is.  So, if it goes up (or down), you are told that this happens.  In Weeks, you are not told.

I think you are wondering about what stops RCI from lowering the point value of all the resorts.  If they do, it is a wash.  You have less points, but everything costs less (because the point values of the other resorts has been lowered).  What happens if they lower the point value of just your resort and your resort alone?  That tells you that your resort is falling out of favor.  (is it falling in disrepair?)  Same thing happens in Weeks, but as mentioned, you are never told.  


			
				RAN said:
			
		

> ...I know what I have! I heard from one deeded week owner that, once converted, no longer had access to her week to use!...


I would have to guess she missed the period of time (about twelve months out, depending on what kind of week she owns) where she was to reclaim her week.  In some cases, that isn't even necessary.  In my own case, I have to call to have my unit put into the program every year.  If I don't... as I mentioned, I have a deed.  I can do whatever I want with my own week.


			
				RAN said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Have any points owners used their points to go to other than their own resort with success?


Read my first message in this thread.  It took me less than three years to recover the conversion fee that I paid because of the EXTRA value that I got from my week in the Points program.  (That would not be the case if your unit is not given a high point value.  In my case, the trades that I got in the Weeks program were all trades down.  Now, when I trade down, I am left with extra points to spend elsewhere.

Yeah, I like the program a heck of a lot better than the Weeks program.  You are wise to ask these sorts of questions.  (Seriously)  Still, the answers, at least for me, have been all good.


----------

