# Maui Considering Parking Fees for Visitors



## slip (Aug 17, 2022)

Not set yet but could start in Spring or Summer of 2023.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 17, 2022)

slip said:


> Not set yet but could start in Spring or Summer of 2023.



If they place parking fees on. parking in towns like Lahaina they may be shooting themselves and their merchants in the foot.  I know if I have to pay to park in an areas on Long Island I don't go there, eat there, and shop there any more.  There are too many free parking areas to shop and eat.


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## PamMo (Aug 17, 2022)

$10-30 to park at the beach, Lahaina and Wailuku seems pretty stiff to me. I'm afraid it will encourage people to park in neighborhoods and side streets, creating new problems for locals.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 17, 2022)

PamMo said:


> $10-30 to park at the beach, Lahaina and Wailuku seems pretty stiff to me. I'm afraid it will encourage people to park in neighborhoods and side streets, creating new problems for locals.



Or Not Go.  I agree it will encourage people to park in neighborhood and walk to the beach or town which could cause problems for locals as well as safety issues.   Some have said that it will deter people from coming to Maui which may be true.  It also could deter people from frequenting certain areas.  People who come to Maui probably will not refrain from going to the beach since that is a prime reason to come to Hawaii.  However, if you can eat or shop other places without paying for parking rather than going to Lahaina you will.  We are walkiing and BUS people in Honolulu so parking is never an issue for us.  However, friends of ours are car people and they are always concerned with "where do we park?  How much is parking?


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## JIMinNC (Aug 17, 2022)

Sounds like they are talking about _street parking _in Lahaina, which is very limited to begin with. Most privately-owned parking lots already charge fees at least as high as what they are talking about. I would rather park in a paid lot than parallel park for free on a street any day. Generally when we go into Lahaina we'll park in one of the lots off Dickenson street and those generally cost $15-$20 or more for from a few hours to all day. The lot down at Outlets of Maui off of Papalaua Street was free on our last two trips, but it's not as convenient to the harbor. They used to charge for that lot also in past years, but that shopping center appears to have fallen on hard times, so I suppose they made parking free to try to attract activity. I don't think the Maui County government can control what private property owners charge on their property.

I personally don't have any issue with charging for parking in beach lots. At least some public beach lots on the Big Island already charge - I know Hapuna Beach Park does - and I know that many other public beaches elsewhere in the US have paid parking. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


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## echino (Aug 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I personally don't have any issue with charging for parking in beach lots. At least some public beach lots on the Big Island already charge - I know Hapuna Beach Park does - and I know that many other public beaches elsewhere in the US have paid parking. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.



Do you know many other public beaches elsewhere in the US that charge visitors for parking, but not locals? Normally, if there's paid parking, it's paid for everyone.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 17, 2022)

echino said:


> Do you know many other public beaches elsewhere in the US that charge visitors for parking, but not locals? Normally, if there's paid parking, it's paid for everyone.



Valid point, although I do know in Hilton Head Island there are a couple of beach parks that are designated for local HHI residents only. You must have a resident sticker to park there. Public parking is limited to a few paid spots in those lots. We own a condo on HHI, so we could get a sticker, but since our condo has direct ocean access, we've never bothered.

In many ways, HHI is a lot like Maui. There is a love-hate relationship between local residents and tourists. As part-time residents, we sort of have one foot in each camp!


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## Great3 (Aug 22, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I personally don't have any issue with charging for parking in beach lots. At least some public beach lots on the Big Island already charge - I know Hapuna Beach Park does - and I know that many other public beaches elsewhere in the US have paid parking. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.



I don't mind if the beaches have paid parking, if it's $10, $20, or $30.  Of course the lower the better .

But what I do mind, and it blows my mind is charging per person as well in addition, to go to the beach, that's just doesn't jive as well for me.  Public Beaches shouldn't have theme park style ticket/entry fees.  I know, other may disagree, so flame away!

Great3


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## pedro47 (Aug 23, 2022)

On our visit to Hawaii this year, I feel most of the local would park their vehicles along the highway and walk to the beach with their surf boards


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## Luanne (Aug 23, 2022)

Great3 said:


> I don't mind if the beaches have paid parking, if it's $10, $20, or $30.  Of course the lower the better .
> 
> But what I do mind, and it blows my mind is charging per person as well in addition, to go to the beach, that's just doesn't jive as well for me.  Public Beaches shouldn't have theme park style ticket/entry fees.  I know, other may disagree, so flame away!
> 
> Great3


Where did you see there might be a plan to charge per person?  The proposal is to put pay stations in like the one that is at Maui Ocean Center in Maalaea.  That is for the car, not per person.  Please provide a link to what you have seen.


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## Great3 (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> Where did you see there might be a plan to charge per person?  The proposal is to put pay stations in like the one that is at Maui Ocean Center in Maalaea.  That is for the car, not per person.  Please provide a link to what you have seen.



Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't talking abut Maui.  I was responding to Hapuna Beach on the Big Island, where there is a $5/person charge in addition to the parking fees to be paid at the same time just to use a public beach.  I was just saying it's more than just parking fees on that Big Island Beach park.

Great3


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

Great3 said:


> Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't talking abut Maui.  I was responding to Hapuna Beach on the Big Island, where there is a $5/person charge in addition to the parking fees to be paid at the same time just to use a public beach.  I was just saying it's more than just parking fees on that Big Island Beach park.
> 
> Great3


Interesting.  Was this through personal experience?  The last time we were on the Big Island (which was some years back) they had instituted a parking fee for Hapuna Beach, but it wasn't always enforced as many times there was no attendant.  How are they managing it now?


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 24, 2022)

Making use of resort shuttles will probably be our plan, if they are truly going to charge for parking along Front St.  We go to whale watches regularly.  This would add some expense to our trips to the harbor.


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## Great3 (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> Interesting.  Was this through personal experience?  The last time we were on the Big Island (which was some years back) they had instituted a parking fee for Hapuna Beach, but it wasn't always enforced as many times there was no attendant.  How are they managing it now?



This changed I think started around April 2021, where they also started charging per person non-resident usage fee in addition to parking:

Division of State Parks | Hāpuna Beach State Recreation Area (hawaii.gov) 

After you park, there were multiple pay stations where you pay for both the parking and entrance fees.  As far as enforcement, I think it's just on honor system, because I don't see anybody checking receipts for payment.  But why chance them they coming to check and enforce, and ruin a good time just to save a few bucks.  Either pay the fees and enjoy or just don't go.  So, I just pay and mumble under my breath that I don't agree with it, lol.

But I didn't got back anymore like I had previously plan on the agenda, I went to other beach parks that didn't charge, often with free parking even.

Even Mākena State Park in Maui is charging entrance fees per person as well.  My main complaint is paying to use a Public Beach, but times are changing.

Division of State Parks | Mākena State Park (hawaii.gov) 

Thanks,
Great3


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## JIMinNC (Aug 24, 2022)

Great3 said:


> This changed I think started around April 2021, where they also started charging per person non-resident usage fee in addition to parking:
> 
> Division of State Parks | Hāpuna Beach State Recreation Area (hawaii.gov)
> 
> ...



While new fees can be annoying, if you think about it, a minivan with six people aboard puts more stress on the beach infrastructure and resources/environment than a car with one or two people aboard. So from that standpoint, charging per person better matches the fee to the potential impact.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

When the Iao Needle started charging for parking we stopped going there.


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## Great3 (Aug 24, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> While new fees can be annoying, if you think about it, a minivan with six people aboard puts more stress on the beach infrastructure and resources/environment than a car with one or two people aboard. So from that standpoint, charging per person better matches the fee to the potential impact.



Oh, I thought about it already and decided the vast big ocean can handle all that wants to visit without need of a visitation fee!!! 

And yes, I did have a mini-van load of people.  If it was about stressing the beach infrastructure, my my mini load will stress it about the same as a minivan load of locals.  But if the locals can visit without parking and entrance fees, *I am happy for them*, not jealous or upset, they deserve to be able to enjoy their beautiful land.  But I do feel I should be able to enjoy too like them.  And thankfully I can, just at other beautiful beach spots not call Hapuna.  There enough other beaches that this isn't a big deal.  I will leave Hapuna Beach to the peaceful enjoyment of the locals and those willing to pay to play!  I enjoyed it once already, and decided it's not worth $40 just to go to the beach, when there are other choices.

Of course, once all beach park charges, than $40 will still be worth it .  I will just pay and mumble under my breath, lol!

Great3


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## Great3 (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> When the Iao Needle started charging for parking we stopped going there.



Exactly, that's the choice you get to make.  Not only does it charge for parking, it also charges the per person non-resident entrance fee as well:

Division of State Parks | ʻĪao Valley State Monument (hawaii.gov) 

But it doesn't matter if you choose to no longer visit.  They accomplished their purpose of reducing infrastructure stress there and moving it somewhere else along the island 

Great3


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## bnoble (Aug 24, 2022)

If the parking charges at the Iao Needle managed to dissuade many people from visiting, I'd hate to see what it looked like before. The place was jam-packed when we made our first visit last summer. I don't mind the non-resident fees that the islands have been applying one bit. It's not a bad thing for tourists to be encouraged to visit "other" places beyond the obvious and most crowded ones, and if that makes a little more room for the residents to also enjoy the wonderful spots on the island, great.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 24, 2022)

Great3 said:


> Oh, I thought about it already and decided the vast big ocean can handle all that wants to visit without need of a visitation fee!!!
> 
> And yes, I did have a mini-van load of people.  If it was about stressing the beach infrastructure, my my mini load will stress it about the same as a minivan load of locals.  But if the locals can visit without parking and entrance fees, *I am happy for them*, not jealous or upset, they deserve to be able to enjoy their beautiful land.  But I do feel I should be able to enjoy too like them.  And thankfully I can, just at other beautiful beach spots not call Hapuna.  There enough other beaches that this isn't a big deal.  I will leave Hapuna Beach to the peaceful enjoyment of the locals and those willing to pay to play!  I enjoyed it once already, and decided it's not worth $40 just to go to the beach.
> 
> Great3



SInce there are free options, I guess $40 to go to a beach does seem a bit steep if that's your only goal, but I suppose that is the intent. One very effective way to discourage over-use of a popular place or resource is to raise the price to play. That sends some people elsewhere, spreading out the impact, which is the desired goal. I really don't have a problem with that approach, and if we decide we want to go to Hapuna Beach next time we are on the Big Island, we'll pay the fee. It's a beautiful beach, easy to access, and convenient to Waikoloa, and $5 per person plus parking won't break the bank.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> SInce there are free options, I guess $40 to go to a beach does seem a bit steep if that's your only goal, but I suppose that is the intent. One very effective way to discourage over-use of a popular place or resource is to raise the price to play. That sends some people elsewhere, spreading out the impact, which is the desired goal. I really don't have a problem with that approach, and if we decide we want to go to Hapuna Beach next time we are on the Big Island, we'll pay the fee. It's a beautiful beach, easy to access, and convenient to Waikoloa, and $5 per person plus parking won't break the bank.


For people like us who spend every morning on the beach it would be an issue.  Thank goodness I haven't heard plans to start charging for parking at the beach we do frequent on Maui.....yet.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> For people like us who spend every morning on the beach it would be an issue.  Thank goodness I haven't heard plans to start charging for parking at the beach we do frequent on Maui.....yet.



Yeah, I can see that, but there are so many places that are being over-used, over-touristed today, it's a difficult choice. Do you artificially limit occupancy/use to a set number (which generally drives people to arrive earlier and earlier get a spot) or use fees to let the market do it for you. I tend to lean toward market-based approaches, but can see where others may not.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 24, 2022)

Maui has long had a battle between tourists and locals. It is like they want tourism $$ but want to limit the tourist.  Can't always have it both ways.  And it is not just about Native Hawaiian, but it is now anyone who want to call Maui home.   It started with taxing Occupancy of TS, as this was a just a revenue grab.  This TOT tax has spread to other areas in Hawaii too.  They want to limit development, government is constantly limiting development and making them jump through hoops in getting things approved.  It look a long long time to get permission to build the New Hilton is Maui, and still there were arguements that the locales should get first dibs and should get land and building subsidized.  

I have been to Maui a few times, but I find it too crowded.  Being visiting BI since, and enjoy it a lot.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 24, 2022)

On Kauai, Waimea Canyon and Koke'e Parks charge a fee for each non-resident vehicle and each non-resident visitor.  At Ke'e Park, not only are there charges per vehicle and per person, they also limit the number of non-residents allowed to enter the park.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 24, 2022)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> On Kauai, Waimea Canyon and Koke'e Parks charge a fee for each non-resident vehicle and each non-resident visitor.  At Ke'e Park, not only are there charges per vehicle and per person, they also limit the number of non-residents allowed to enter the park.



So does this drive Uber car rentals, as that car could have local resident pass on it, vs a rental at the airport.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 24, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> So does this drive Uber car rentals, as that car could have local resident pass on it, vs a rental at the airport.


I don't know how that works. 

In a larger perspective, my sense is the most Kauai residents believe that pre-pandemic the island was receiving more visitors than it could handle, with the locals left deal with the damages of too many visitors.  Thus there is interest and political will to take measures such as visitor fees and restricted access to Ke'e, not only to raise money, but also to try rein in the number of visitors.  If they protect the island, it will remain a special place for them and for visitors, but without restricting traffic in some way, the island will lose much of what makes it special. 

We've been going to Kauai for more than 20 years, and I do have some sympathy for that sentiment. It has lost charm in the time that we have been going. and the infrastructure is creaking.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> So does this drive Uber car rentals, as that car could have local resident pass on it, vs a rental at the airport.


I wouldn't think so.  If you're going to use Uber to tour places you'd have to be paying them for all of their time.  Or am I missing something?


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> I wouldn't think so.  If you're going to use Uber to tour places you'd have to be paying them for all of their time.  Or am I missing something?


Uber now has car rentals.  You can rents someones personal vehicle via Uber.  This is not hire a driver, but rent a car.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Uber now has car rentals.  You can rents someones personal vehicle via Uber.  This is not hire a driver, but rent a car.


Thanks for the clarification.  Sounds like Turo.


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## slip (Aug 24, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Uber now has car rentals.  You can rents someones personal vehicle via Uber.  This is not hire a driver, but rent a car.



I think parking would be free for Hawaii residents even with a rental cat. Just like Waimea Canyon.  You would just show a Hawaii ID and entry and parking are free.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Uber now has car rentals.  You can rents someones personal vehicle via Uber.  This is not hire a driver, but rent a car.


In thinking this through, renting a car, or an Uber wouldn't work.  You have to show proof of residence.









						Hāpuna Beach State Recreation Area
					

Hours Daily 7:00 am to 6:45 pm Entrance Fee *Credit Card Only* Hawaii Residents = Free w/ Drivers Lic. or ID Non-Residents = $5.00 Per Person Children 3 and Under = Free Parking Fee      … Read More »




					dlnr.hawaii.gov


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## slip (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> In thinking this through, renting a car, or an Uber wouldn't work.  You have to show proof of residence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and it doesn't matter if it's a rental car when you show proof of residence.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> In thinking this through, renting a car, or an Uber wouldn't work.  You have to show proof of residence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least with a Uber you wouldn't have to pay for parking!


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 24, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> At least with a Uber you wouldn't have to pay for parking!


Since there is a $10 parking fee for non-residents.


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## Luanne (Aug 24, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> At least with a Uber you wouldn't have to pay for parking!


How do you figure that?  You have to show ID.  If you aren't a resident of Hawaii you pay.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 25, 2022)

Luanne said:


> How do you figure that?  You have to show ID.  If you aren't a resident of Hawaii you pay.



You would still have to pay for entrance, but with an Uber you don't park.  The Uber drives away when you get out.

Also, the Uber driver is probably a resident.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2022)

bnoble said:


> If the parking charges at the Iao Needle managed to dissuade many people from visiting, I'd hate to see what it looked like before. The place was jam-packed when we made our first visit last summer. I don't mind the non-resident fees that the islands have been applying one bit. It's not a bad thing for tourists to be encouraged to visit "other" places beyond the obvious and most crowded ones, and if that makes a little more room for the residents to also enjoy the wonderful spots on the island, great.


We are happy to pay as well.


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## Luanne (Aug 25, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> You would still have to pay for entrance, but with an Uber you don't park.  The Uber drives away when you get out.
> 
> Also, the Uber driver is probably a resident.


They were talking about renting a car from Uber, not using an Uber driver.  See post #28.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 25, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are happy to pay as well.



As are we. I think its a reasonable way to address places that are over-touristed.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 26, 2022)

Luanne said:


> They were talking about renting a car from Uber, not using an Uber driver.  See post #28.


Oh, I didn't even know you could rent a car from Uber.  We use Uber all the time when we need to transport lots of stuff and can't take a BUS I thought their cars were owned by the driver.  If he/she rents their car they have no job.


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## Luanne (Aug 26, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Oh, I didn't even know you could rent a car from Uber.  We use Uber all the time when we need to transport lots of stuff and can't take a BUS I thought their cars were owned by the driver.  If he/she rents their car they have no job.


I didn't think Uber rented cars either.  It was clarified for me in post #28.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 27, 2022)

Thanks.  I wonder how that works with insurance.  I am always hesitant to use someone else's car or lend my car to someone else.  If there is an accident the insurance situation gets complicated.


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## Luanne (Aug 27, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Thanks.  I wonder how that works with insurance.  I am always hesitant to use someone else's car or lend my car to someone else.  If there is an accident the insurance situation gets complicated.


As I said earlier, it sounds a lot like Turo.  You're using someone else's car.  You may, or may not, be covered by your insurance.  You may, or may not, have to take out additional insurance to cover yourself.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 27, 2022)

Luanne said:


> As I said earlier, it sounds a lot like Turo.  You're using someone else's car.  You may, or may not, be covered by your insurance.  You may, or may not, have to take out additional insurance to cover yourself.



OK, may or may not!  I am sure glad that when you make a rent a car resrvation you know you have a car when you get there, or when you make a timeshare reservation you know you will have a unit when you get there,  Usually when I rent a car my personal car insurance covers my rent a car liability and I get primary damage coverage from American Express for $20 for the entire trip so that I don't need to file a claim with my insurance company for anything but liabilty.


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## TravelTime (Aug 27, 2022)

When we go to Maui or any island in Hawaii, we rent a car and rarely use it so parking fees would not be an issue for us since it would be infrequent. Plus we go to the beach where we are staying. It would not deter us from going somewhere. Last time we were in Maui, we went to the luau in Lahaina and we paid to park in a parking lot. Can‘t remember how much but it was reasonable.

I am okay with certain spots for locals. I think Manhattan or San Francisco might do this already in some neighborhoods. I can’t remember which one but I do know it was one of them.

When we fly out of airports in CA, we park in short term parking and pay a fortune. Last time, it was $450 I think for 15 days. So paying $20 or so to go to the beach, entertainment or shopping is not a big deal to us.

I suspect many Maui visitors will not care. Maui is so expensive that I suspect many people have the money to spare.


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## Luanne (Aug 27, 2022)

I would just like to know who is getting the money and how it is being used.  My husband's opinion is that some company is coming in and making a pitch to people that they will collect these fees and a [small] percentage will go to the city, or whatever, and the rest will go to this company.  In many cases I'm betting the dollars don't stay on island or provide them much benefit.  I could be completely wrong and would love for someone to point me to some reliable information showing how much of these fees are benefiting businesses on the islands.

And yes, I would care if I had to pay daily to go to the beach.


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## bnoble (Aug 27, 2022)

You think that a state---an entity capable of collecting taxes, licensing fees, etc. etc.---is incapable of administering one more fee?


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## Luanne (Aug 27, 2022)

bnoble said:


> You think that a state---an entity capable of collecting taxes, licensing fees, etc. etc.---is incapable of administering one more fee?


If that question was directed at me, it's not whether I think that a state is capable, it is whether the state is the one administering these fees, or is it a private company.  Do you have an answer to that?


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## bnoble (Aug 27, 2022)

I think it is very very likely that the state is doing it themselves, just like they do with every other fee they collect. But I don't feel it necessary to look it up for you.


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## Luanne (Aug 27, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I think it is very very likely that the state is doing it themselves, just like they do with every other fee they collect. But I don't feel it necessary to look it up for you.


No, the state is not doing it themselves.  I did look it up, you don't have to do anything for me, include insult me. 

Here is some information I found by looking things up myself.  This post is actually from a resident on Maui who was responding to the same questions I asked here:

They are the same many of us are asking--and the mayor is noticeably quiet (rare for him).
Paia and Hana are also asking "What about us?", with good cause. Lots of flubber in response, no real answer.
*"Park Maui" is a private entity*. They already run the Maalaea Harbor lot by the Ocean Center, as I may have mentioned before. The County is going to pay them 3.8 million to "develop" and run the program.
The income will go into a "revolving" County fund. Anyone want to make bets on the likelihood of that money being seen again?

https://mauinow.com/2022/08/27/some-residents-want-pa%ca%bbia-and-hana-on-radar-for-park-mauis-paid-visitor-parking-program/


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## geist1223 (Aug 27, 2022)

So Mau'i is paying $3.8M up front. How many decades will it take for Mau'i to recover the initial investment. Mau'i would be smarter to negociate a Contract where they pay nothing up front and the private company gets to keep 40% of the Gross. What local politicians own a part of this private Company?


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## youppi (Aug 28, 2022)

Around 10% of the population are native Hawaiian.
Around 53% of residents are born in Hawaii.
Around 81% of residents are born in the USA (any state including Hawaii) 
Around 75% of residents speak only English.
So, many residents were *tourists* that visited Hawaii, like it, and decided to move there and now complain about *tourists*.


			Hawaii Population 2022 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 28, 2022)

youppi said:


> Around 10% of the population are native Hawaiian.
> Around 53% of residents are born in Hawaii.
> Around 81% of residents are born in the USA (any state including Hawaii)
> Around 75% of residents speak only English.
> ...


So true.  Tourists complaining about tourists.  

What always surprises me is the low sales tax at restaurants.  If Maui wanted to collect more money from visitors, I think a resident card for low taxes, and no resident card, you pay twice the amount.  That would bring real revenue to the state.  Maybe there are issues with implementing it.  

If you move to Maui, you are either independently wealthy, you get a job in an industry that no one wants to work (like hospitality), or you have a business you can move anywhere.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 28, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So true.  Tourists complaining about tourists.
> 
> What always surprises me is the low sales tax at restaurants.  If Maui wanted to collect more money from visitors, I think a resident card for low taxes, and no resident card, you pay twice the amount.  That would bring real revenue to the state.  Maybe there are issues with implementing it.
> 
> If you move to Maui, you are either independently wealthy, you get a job in an industry that no one wants to work (like hospitality), or you have a business you can move anywhere.



Well now you are talking around an issue that I have been saying for a number of years.  The GET, General Excise Tax in Hawaii which is implemented like a sales tax, is levied on unprepared food that is purchased in a supermarket, Sam's, Walmart, Cosco etc as well as Restauants.  In other states unprepared food does NOT pay sales tax.  The locals prepare many more of their meals at home than tourists.  They should eliminate the tax on unprepared food and raise the GET on everything else including prepared food like restaurants.  That is a way to shift the tax burden with a good impact on locals to an almost invisible impact on tourists.  Tourists would also be paying more GET on attractions, rent a cars, hotels, souvenirs which they primarily use.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

Another approach that can be employed is different property tax rates for full-time residents versus part-time. We deal with that in Hilton Head Island, SC. As a part-time resident we pay a much higher property tax rate than do full-time residents. Our tax bill for our 1,200 sq ft two-bedroom condo in HHI is more than our 4000+ sq ft four-bedroom home in Charlotte, NC - and that is based on our last property valuation in HHI which was before HHI prices soared by 80% over the last three years. I dread our next property revaluation.


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## lynne (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Another approach that can be employed is different property tax rates for full-time residents versus part-time. We deal with that in Hilton Head Island, SC. As a part-time resident we pay a much higher property tax rate than do full-time residents. Our tax bill for our 1,200 sq ft two-bedroom condo in HHI is more than our 4000+ sq ft four-bedroom home in Charlotte, NC - and that is based on our last property valuation in HHI which was before HHI prices soared by 80% over the last three years. I dread our next property revaluation.



That is already the case in the state - owner occupied residents pay a different tax rate than part-time residents as well as income producing property.  You are only allowed to claim a single residence as your home and you must file an prove the residence is owner occupied.  This is the Maui tax rates, the other counties have similar thresholds:
*2022/2023 Maui County Property Tax Rates*
Here are the updated rates for this coming fiscal year. If there is any change in rates, last years rates are noted for reference. All rates shown below are per $1,000 of assessed value.

*Owner Occupied*



Tier 1: up to $1,000,000 Formerly $2.41 now *$2.00*
Tier 2: $1,000,001 to $3,000,000 Formerly $2.51 now *$2.10*
Tier 3: more than $3,000,000 Unchanged *$2.71*
*Non Owner Occupied*



Tier 1: up to $1,000,000 Formerly $5.45 now *$5.85*
Tier 2: $1,000,001 to $4,500,000 Formerly $6.05 now *$8.00*
Tier 3: more than $4,500,000 Formerly $8.00 now *$12.50*
*Apartment*



Formerly $5.55 now *$3.50*
*Hotel and Resort*



Unchanged *$11.75*
*Timeshare*



Unchanged *$14.60*
*Short-Term Rental*



Tier 1: up to $1,000,000 Formerly $11.11 now *$11.85*
Tier 2: $1,000,001 to $3,000,000 Formerly $11.15 now *$11.85*
Tier 3: more than $3,000,000 Formerly $11.20 now *$11.85*
*Long-Term Rental*



Tier 1: up to $1,000,000 New Class *$3.00*
Tier 2: $1,000,001 to $3,000,000 New Class *$5.00*
Tier 3: more than $3,000,000 New Class *$8.00*
*Agricultural*



Formerly $5.94 now *$5.74*
*Conservation*



Unchanged *$6.43*
*Commercial*



Formerly $6.29 now *$6.05*
*Industrial*



Formerly $7.20 now *$7.05*
*Commercial Residential*



Unchanged *$4.50*


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

lynne said:


> That is already the case in the state - owner occupied residents pay a different tax rate than part-time residents as well as income producing property.  You are only allowed to claim a single residence as your home and you must file an prove the residence is owner occupied.  This is the Maui tax rates, the other counties have similar thresholds:
> *2022/2023 Maui County Property Tax Rates*
> Here are the updated rates for this coming fiscal year. If there is any change in rates, last years rates are noted for reference. All rates shown below are per $1,000 of assessed value.
> 
> ...



In those rates, I see Owner-Occupied and Non-Owner Occupied, but not Part-Time as a category. 

In Hilton Head, all non-full time pay the same higher tax rate whether the property is in the short-term rental market or not. We don't rent our unit, so wish there were three tiers from low-to-high - full-time resident, part-time resident, and short term rental property.


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## lynne (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> In those rates, I see Owner-Occupied and Non-Owner Occupied, but not Part-Time as a category.
> 
> In Hilton Head, all non-full time pay the same higher tax rate whether the property is in the short-term rental market or not. We don't rent our unit, so wish there were three tiers from low-to-high - full-time resident, part-time resident, and short term rental property.


part-time is NOT owner occupied.  The home must be your primary residence.   On Oahu, you must be in residence 270 days/year.  Non-full time residents also pay the higher tax rate.  In our development, we have many homeowners who also have property on the mainland and internationally.  Since they have not filed the Hawaii residence as their primary with a home exemption, their property taxes are quite a bit higher.  

Owner-occupied – *properties owned and occupied as a principal home and for which a home exemption was filed and granted*


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 28, 2022)

lynne said:


> part-time is NOT owner occupied.  The home must be your primary residence.   On Oahu, you must be in residence 270 days/year.  Non-full time residents also pay the higher tax rate.  In our development, we have many homeowners who also have property on the mainland and internationally.  Since they have not filed the Hawaii residence as their primary with a home exemption, their property taxes are quite a bit higher.
> 
> Owner-occupied – *properties owned and occupied as a principal home and for which a home exemption was filed and granted*


I am glad they don't keep track of our vacations at our house and charge us higher property taxes.  We are not home 270 days a year.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

lynne said:


> part-time is NOT owner occupied.  The home must be your primary residence.   On Oahu, you must be in residence 270 days/year.  Non-full time residents also pay the higher tax rate.  In our development, we have many homeowners who also have property on the mainland and internationally.  Since they have not filed the Hawaii residence as their primary with a home exemption, their property taxes are quite a bit higher.
> 
> Owner-occupied – *properties owned and occupied as a principal home and for which a home exemption was filed and granted*


I understand that "Owner-Occupied" on your list you posted would be full-time residents who get the lowest rate. That's the same way it's done on Hilton Head Island.

But what is "Non-Owner Occupied" in your list you posted? Is that what they are calling part-time residents who don't rent their property? If so, the description seems odd since a part time resident is also an owner and they occupy, just not full time. I'm not disputing that a part timer shouldn't pay a somewhat higher rate, I just don't get the description.

It makes sense that "Short Term Rentals" would pay the highest rate in line with that charged by hotels. But in Hilton Head we pay the same high rate short term rentals do since they don't have a "middle category" for part time owners who don't rent.


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## lynne (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I understand that "Owner-Occupied" on your list you posted would be full-time residents who get the lowest rate. That's the same way it's done on Hilton Head Island.
> 
> But what is "Non-Owner Occupied" in your list you posted? Is that what they are calling part-time residents who don't rent their property? If so, the description seems odd since a part time resident is also an owner and they occupy, just not full time. I'm not disputing that a part timer shouldn't pay a somewhat higher rate, I just don't get the description.
> 
> It makes sense that "Short Term Rentals" would pay the highest rate in line with that charged by hotels. But in Hilton Head we pay the same high rate short term rentals do since they don't have a "middle category" for part time owners who don't rent.


Maui does not have a great definition for non-owner occupied.  

*Non-owner-occupied* - real property improved with a dwelling, as defined in the comprehensive zoning ordinance, that would not be classified as “owner-occupied”, “hotel and resort”, “time share”, “short-term rental”, “commercial”, “industrial” or “commercialized residential”
Maui is the only county with this designation - Here are the classifications for all of the counties:


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

lynne said:


> Maui does not have a great definition for non-owner occupied.
> 
> *Non-owner-occupied* - real property improved with a dwelling, as defined in the comprehensive zoning ordinance, that would not be classified as “owner-occupied”, “hotel and resort”, “time share”, “short-term rental”, “commercial”, “industrial” or “commercialized residential”
> Maui is the only county with this designation - Here are the classifications for all of the counties:
> ...



You're right is is confusing. It's not clear to me which rate a part-time resident would pay if they didn't rent their home when not there.


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## youppi (Aug 28, 2022)

From https://canadianrealestatenetwork.com/how-much-higher-are-non-owner-occupied-mortgage-down-payments/
The term “non-owner-occupied” simply means that the owner (you) won’t be using the property as their primary residence. It sounds simple, and it is, but the distinction is blurrier than you might think. For example, your primary residence is considered owner-occupied (obviously). So, too, are any vacation homes you might have acquired, provided the property is outside your current county. The only time that the term non-owner-occupied pops up is when you’re buying property for investment. Therefore, the term non-owner-occupied is primarily intended to designate investment property.


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## Luanne (Aug 28, 2022)

A friend of mine used to own a house in Kona.  They lived there part of the year and in Santa Fe part of the year.  They declared as Hawaii residents. They had to be sure they spent a certain number of days in their residence in Kona to quality.  She said her husband kept a spreadsheet so they could keep track.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> In those rates, I see Owner-Occupied and Non-Owner Occupied, but not Part-Time as a category.
> 
> In Hilton Head, all non-full time pay the same higher tax rate whether the property is in the short-term rental market or not. We don't rent our unit, so wish there were three tiers from low-to-high - full-time resident, part-time resident, and short term rental property.



Property taxes based on the occupancy of the property is certainly a good way to tax property to benefit the real locals.  No one mentioned that the property taxes in Hawaii are the lowest in the country.  They are about 1/10 of the property taxes on Long Island in NY.  The main reason for that is that the schools in Hawaii are funded by the State of Hawaii not from local property taxes.  This is great for low income locals who do own their home.  However, it is also one of the reasons that the real estate prices are so high.  If you are paying about $3K per year in property taxes on a million dollar condo that is not so bad, if you had to pay 30K in property taxes you might not want to buy a million dollar condo. 

However, as I mentioned that GET is a very regressive tax since it taxes a life essential, store bought FOOD.  Remove it from FOOD, and increase it on everything else which would tax the wealthy who eat out at restaurants more, as well as tourist when they do their thing when they come to Hawaii.


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## lynne (Aug 28, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Property taxes based on the occupancy of the property is certainly a good way to tax property to benefit the real locals.  No one mentioned that the property taxes in Hawaii are the lowest in the country.  They are about 1/10 of the property taxes on Long Island in NY.  The main reason for that is that the schools in Hawaii are funded by the State of Hawaii not from local property taxes.  This is great for low income locals who do own their home.  However, it is also one of the reasons that the real estate prices are so high.  If you are paying about $3K per year in property taxes on a million dollar condo that is not so bad, if you had to pay 30K in property taxes you might not want to buy a million dollar condo.
> 
> However, as I mentioned that GET is a very regressive tax since it taxes a life essential, store bought FOOD.  Remove it from FOOD, and increase it on everything else which would tax the wealthy who eat out at restaurants more, as well as tourist when they do their thing when they come to Hawaii.


Totally agree with you but some owners who are not full time residents pay very high property taxes.  One neighbor who lives here full time pays $6000/year and one neighbor who has a primary residence in CA pays $24,000/year.   In Hawaii county we also receive reduced property taxes based on age.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 29, 2022)

lynne said:


> Totally agree with you but some owners who are not full time residents pay very high property taxes.  One neighbor who lives here full time pays $6000/year and one neighbor who has a primary residence in CA pays $24,000/year.   In Hawaii county we also receive reduced property taxes based on age.



How much are the houses worth that pay those amounts.  Here in Hawaii my Condo is worth about 600K and I pay about $1700 in property taxes.  My House on Long Island in NY is worth about 300K and I pay over $8000 in taxes.


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## lynne (Aug 29, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> How much are the houses worth that pay those amounts.  Here in Hawaii my Condo is worth about 600K and I pay about $1700 in property taxes.  My House on Long Island in NY is worth about 300K and I pay over $8000 in taxes.


I was simply comparing the property taxes in my neighborhood between full time residents and owners who do not claim their home as their primary residence.  I understand that taxes are much higher on Long Island.  Our prior house in Northport is worth approx $800K and the property taxes are $10,000.


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## Tamaradarann (Aug 30, 2022)

lynne said:


> I was simply comparing the property taxes in my neighborhood between full time residents and owners who do not claim their home as their primary residence.  I understand that taxes are much higher on Long Island.  Our prior house in Northport is worth approx $800K and the property taxes are $10,000.



Your taxes in Northport were very low for Long Island and both of us know why.  The Power Plant.


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## easyrider (Aug 30, 2022)

I can see a time when Maui will no longer be a place we visit because of traffic and rules. Kauai is already that way for us. Oahu might end up being our Hawaian go to. I think Big Island too. 

Maybe going to Maui and just staying in one place like Napili will be our new thing. If there is one place I could hang out for the winter Napili Bay is it.

Bill


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## slip (Aug 30, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I can see a time when Maui will no longer be a place we visit because of traffic and rules. Kauai is already that way for us. Oahu might end up being our Hawaian go to. I think Big Island too.
> 
> Maybe going to Maui and just staying in one place like Napili will be our new thing. If there is one place I could hang out for the winter Napili Bay is it.
> 
> Bill



We like Napili too. Nice area with a good Variety of everything and everything is close by.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

An updated story on the parking. 









						Maui residents excited about ‘locals-only hours’ to begin at certain beach parks
					

Maui visitors may soon have to pay to park in popular areas.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## daviator (Oct 11, 2022)

$30 to park (on the street, presumably) in Lahaina?  Are they trying to discourage people from going there?

Most of the parking in Lahaina is in private lots that already charge quite a bit, but (up to) $30 to park on the street under this new program?  That’s just crazy.  I will avoid going to Lahaina for dinner if I’m going to have $30 of parking added to the already-high cost of dining there.

On the flip side, I have no problem at all with the parking restrictions on visitors at the beach parks.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Oct 11, 2022)

Luanne said:


> For people like us who spend every morning on the beach it would be an issue.  Thank goodness I haven't heard plans to start charging for parking at the beach we do frequent on Maui.....yet.


Yes especially if you go multiple times per day.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 11, 2022)

daviator said:


> $30 to park (on the street, presumably) in Lahaina?  Are they trying to discourage people from going there?



They're trying to throttle it down. Maui has too many visitors. So does Big Island, if you ask me.

Sheer numbers is a horrible way to do tourism. We need a better signal to noise ratio. I'm 100% in favor of this.

When I was a kid, snowbirds came to my home town and stayed for weeks/months at a time. We got to know them -- many of them were missed when they left. Then Key West went mass-market, four cruise ships a day, and it ruined the island. The reef died from too many tourists standing on it, breaking off coral as souvenirs, and from the bleaching caused by heat and chemicals.

Now the place is a caricature of its former self. My last trip home was likely my last trip ever. Breaks my heart to see what "home" has become. I don't want to see it happen here.

Not only do I want to see parking fees, I'd like to see "disembarkation fees" for all cruise ship passengers. I'd like to see higher taxes for scooter rentals. And mandatory minimum tip amounts. (I don't live off tips -- but my neighbors do. And they deserve relief.) As expensive as Hawaii is, it should be even more expensive. And 100% of the added expense should go to: 1) Cleaning up the damage already done; and 2) Raising wages for the workers.

The three biggest problems here are pollution, low wages and lack of housing. Tourism should subsidize the first two. The government should get with the program and encourage building more housing.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 11, 2022)

daviator said:


> $30 to park (on the street, presumably) in Lahaina?  Are they trying to discourage people from going there?
> 
> Most of the parking in Lahaina is in private lots that already charge quite a bit, but (up to) $30 to park on the street under this new program?  That’s just crazy.  I will avoid going to Lahaina for dinner if I’m going to have $30 of parking added to the already-high cost of dining there.
> 
> On the flip side, I have no problem at all with the parking restrictions on visitors at the beach parks.



We stayed in Kahana in September and had dinner in Lahaina on 2 nights and never had to pay for parking.  The Maui bus service is suprisingly good and picked us up right in front of our resort and dropped us off within a few hundred feet of both restaurants.  Senior is over 55 on Maui (it is over 65 on Oahu), and we are so the cost was $1/ride, otherwise it is $2/ride.  Other benefits were that we didn't have to use gas and didn't have to be concerned about drinking and driving.  The last bus from Lahaina is at 7:30 so you can't party too late.  (The buses on Oahu do run much later in Waikki and Downtown Honolulu)  Now that we are in our 70's partying too late is usually not an issue.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> They're trying to throttle it down. Maui has too many visitors. So does Big Island, if you ask me.
> 
> Sheer numbers is a horrible way to do tourism. We need a better signal to noise ratio. I'm 100% in favor of this.
> 
> ...



If they keep adding fees then Hawaii will only be a destination for the rich so that is not a good answer either. 

Many tourist destinations around the world have the same issues and it doesn't look like there are any easy answers.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 11, 2022)

slip said:


> If they keep adding fees then Hawaii will only be a destination for the rich so that is not a good answer either.
> 
> Many tourist destinations around the world have the same issues and it doesn't look like there are any easy answers.



Hawaii already is only a destination for the rich. The only question now is "how rich?"

After putting up with five weeks of Ironman, I can say with certainty that I hope I never see those people ever again -- they treated the island like a trash can/toilet, didn't tip anyone, and demanded that we love them because of "all the money they pump into the economy."

Nope. 

Give me people who take a "build a ukulele" class, or cooking demonstrations, tip their servers and bartenders, and generally try to at least pay attention to their impact on the ecosystem.

We need a better class of visitors here. We're getting way too much riff-raff.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaii already is only a destination for the rich. The only question now is "how rich?"
> 
> After putting up with five weeks of Ironman, I can say with certainty that I hope I never see those people ever again -- they treated the island like a trash can/toilet, didn't tip anyone, and demanded that we love them because of "all the money they pump into the economy."
> 
> ...



Many people come to Hawaii that aren't rich and I was one of them for many years. Here in the Hawaii Forum, common advise given was that there are plenty of things to do for free in Hawaii. That may be going away.

Your better class of visitors isn't necessarily wealthy people. They can have issues just like anyone else. Again, not any easy solutions.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 11, 2022)

slip said:


> Many people come to Hawaii that aren't rich and I was one of them for many years. Here in the Hawaii Forum, common advise given was that there are plenty of things to do for free in Hawaii. That may be going away.
> 
> Your better class of visitors isn't necessarily wealthy people. They can have issues just like anyone else. Again, not any easy solutions.



Oh, you're rich. You're very likely a 1-percenter compared to the rest of the planet. 

Rich doesn't just mean "nesting-doll yacht." Having seen poor -- in places like Uganda and Haiti -- I can say with certainty that Hawaii is a playground for rich tourists. Most of the planet will never be able to visit. They don't have the means.

Again, the question becomes "how rich?" And we're setting the bar too low. Kudos to Maui for trying to raise the bar. I hope every island follows suit. We'd get a better class of visitor that way -- more nerds; less "I don't tip because it's optional" people.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Oh, you're rich. You're very likely a 1-percenter compared to the rest of the planet.
> 
> Rich doesn't just mean "nesting-doll yacht." Having seen poor -- in places like Uganda and Haiti -- I can say with certainty that Hawaii is a playground for rich tourists. Most of the planet will never be able to visit. They don't have the means.
> 
> Again, the question becomes "how rich?" And we're setting the bar too low. Kudos to Maui for trying to raise the bar. I hope every island follows suit. We'd get a better class of visitor that way -- more nerds; less "I don't tip because it's optional" people.



I'm comparing to other travelers and no I'm not rich compared to them. Again, just having rich travels will not solve the problem. 

How can you decide who the better class of visitor is? Does the better class of visitor have a badge to tell them apart.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 11, 2022)

slip said:


> I'm comparing to other travelers and no I'm not rich compared to them. Again, just having rich travels will not solve the problem.
> 
> How can you decide who the better class of visitor is? Does the better class of visitor have a badge to tell them apart.



They aren't throwing plastic bottles from their bicycle, defecating on the side of the road, or using reef-bleaching sunscreen. They tip their servers and try to minimize their impact on the ecosystem. The truly low-bar visitors toss cigarette butts everywhere. (I can't accuse Ironman of that. Even they don't stoop that low.)

And yes, you have to look at your place compared to everyone else. The problem most people have is they utterly lack perspective. This is why "Karen" and "first-world-problems" are things. Most people are trying to eke out a living. They don't have 20+ weeks of timeshare to play around with.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> They aren't throwing plastic bottles from their bicycle, defecating on the side of the road, or using reef-bleaching sunscreen. They tip their servers and try to minimize their impact on the ecosystem. The truly low-bar visitors toss cigarette butts everywhere. (I can't accuse Ironman of that. Even they don't stoop that low.)
> 
> And yes, you have to look at your place compared to everyone else. The problem most people have is they utterly lack perspective. This is why "Karen" and "first-world-problems" are things. Most people are trying to eke out a living. They don't have 20+ weeks of timeshare to play around with.



That's correct most people are trying to eke out a living and they are not traveling. That's why I said travelers. Since some of the travelers that come are part of the problem here. I don't think the poor in Uganda or Haiti are a part of some of the problems here in Hawaii.

Making things more expensive so only people with 40 timeshare weeks can afford to come does not solve the problem.

I'll just end with, there are no easy answers.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 11, 2022)

slip said:


> I'll just end with, there are no easy answers.



There is one easy answer -- just keep going with the status quo. If you want a dead reef, and only billionaires able to afford to live here, keep with the status quo. Because that's the end game.

Unless we invest in the people who live and work here (not the retirees and the wealthy); unless we do more to clean up the pollution (and stop new sources of pollution); we will end up like Key West -- a has-been caricature of its former self, gone in the teeth.


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## slip (Oct 11, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> There is one easy answer -- just keep going with the status quo. If you want a dead reef, and only billionaires able to afford to live here, keep with the status quo. Because that's the end game.
> 
> Unless we invest in the people who live and work here (not the retirees and the wealthy); unless we do more to clean up the pollution (and stop new sources of pollution); we will end up like Key West -- a has-been caricature of its former self, gone in the teeth.



Well if that's the only answer it looks like you'll be moving. Where's your next destination to live?


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

slip said:


> Where's your next destination to live?



Taiwan or New Zealand.


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## slip (Oct 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Taiwan or New Zealand.



I was figuring you might say somewhere in Asia.


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## vacationtime1 (Oct 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> . . . . I'd like to see "disembarkation fees" for all cruise ship passengers. . . .


An awesome idea, and the fee should be significant.  Cruise ports provide the entertainment -- and the raison d'etre of cruising -- for free.  Cruise ship passengers put little or nothing into the local economies in return, except for supporting T-shirt, trinket, and ice cream shops.  Cruise passengers don't eat in restaurants (food is free on the boat).   They obviously don't stay in the hotels.  Most excursions are run by the cruise ship companies, not by locals.  The system degrades the areas surrounding the cruise ports (think Front Street in Lahaina) while the cruise ship companies cream off the profits.


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## pedro47 (Oct 12, 2022)

What would happen if all tourists would boycott Maui for one (1) year and no upper class families would build new homes on Maui?

Food for Thought.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What would happen if all tourists would boycott Maui for one (1) year and no upper class families would build new homes on Maui?
> 
> Food for Thought.



Basically already happened with the pandemic.

But a boycott isn't going to work -- Maui is beautiful year around. Can't say that about most places. Maui is better than where most people live, and that's why it's popular. Why should they "give it away," just because tourists want them to?


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## Tucsonadventurer (Oct 12, 2022)

For me the larger issue is the 7 to 10 parking restrictions proposed at many of the south shore beaches , when only residents can park. That is prime snorkling hrs.


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## Ken555 (Oct 12, 2022)

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better example of NIMBYism in action than this. 

I don’t mind paying a reasonable amount for parking or use private lots with validation (such as Whaler’s Village). But, $10-30 for street parking? That’s just crazy and not the way to solve the “too many tourists” issue. Maui could more easily just increase the tax on rental cars (though perhaps they recognize it’s already too high, and this is a way to distribute the tourist tax). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better example of NIMBYism in action than this.
> 
> I don’t mind paying a reasonable amount for parking or use private lots with validation (such as Whaler’s Village). But, $10-30 for street parking? That’s just crazy and not the way to solve the “too many tourists” issue. Maui could more easily just increase the tax on rental cars (though perhaps they recognize it’s already too high, and this is a way to distribute the tourist tax).



If it were up to me, it would cost $100 per day just for the privilege of visiting the island. All that money would be rolled into mitigation of damage already done and building more housing to mitigate our massive homeless problem (and push average rent down.) The average resident doesn't get to vacation because they can't afford to. (Boggles my mind that when they do go, they go to Las Vegas. But, different strokes and all.)

The experience for most of the people who live here is that they get to watch visitors do the things they can't afford to do. Tourism should be doing more than just enriching the same five families which own everything.


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## Ken555 (Oct 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> If it were up to me, it would cost $100 per day just for the privilege of visiting the island. All that money would be rolled into mitigation of damage already done and building more housing to mitigate our massive homeless problem (and push average rent down.) The average resident doesn't get to vacation because they can't afford to. (Boggles my mind that when they do go, they go to Las Vegas. But, different strokes and all.)
> 
> The experience for most of the people who live here is that they get to watch visitors do the things they can't afford to do. Tourism should be doing more than just enriching the same five families which own everything.



We already pay thru the nose in tourist taxes, and timeshare owners pay much more than residents in property taxes. Simply increasing the tourist tax (in whatever form it takes) is, in my opinion, not the right solution.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> We already pay thru the nose in tourist taxes, and timeshare owners pay much more than residents in property taxes. Simply increasing the tourist tax (in whatever form it takes) is, in my opinion, not the right solution.



Hawaii has three major problems: lack of housing, low wages and pollution. The housing problem is a double-edged sword because that's also pushing average rent up. Too many non-residents snapping up property as investments and "to retire to someday." 

Developers don't build affordable housing because there's more profit building McMansions. And try to get a permit from the county to build anything at all -- it can take years.

The fact of the matter is that Hawaii doesn't have the infrastructure for the amount of people who are visiting. So who is going to pay for that? Locals? Most of 'em are holding on by their fingernails already. Everyone who visits knows how expensive this place is. Now try it on $12/hr wages. (Which is what most people who work in the tourist areas make.) That minimum wage just went into effect this month. It took years to implement -- by the time workers here get a higher minimum, it's already too little to live on.


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## Ken555 (Oct 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaii has three major problems: lack of housing, low wages and pollution. The housing problem is a double-edged sword because that's also pushing average rent up. Too many non-residents snapping up property as investments and "to retire to someday."
> 
> Developers don't build affordable housing because there's more profit building McMansions. And try to get a permit from the county to build anything at all -- it can take years.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that Hawaii doesn't have the infrastructure for the amount of people who are visiting. So who is going to pay for that? Locals? Most of 'em are holding on by their fingernails already. Everyone who visits knows how expensive this place is. Now try it on $12/hr wages. (Which is what most people who work in the tourist areas make.) That minimum wage just went into effect this month. It took years to implement -- by the time workers here get a higher minimum, it's already too little to live on.



Taxing tourists more and more isn’t the answer to these problems.


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> There is one easy answer -- just keep going with the status quo. If you want a dead reef, and only billionaires able to afford to live here, keep with the status quo. Because that's the end game.
> 
> Unless we invest in the people who live and work here (not the retirees and the wealthy); unless we do more to clean up the pollution (and stop new sources of pollution); we will end up like Key West -- a has-been caricature of its former self, gone in the teeth.



Geezz Scoop. It's mainly the billionaires that have destroyed Hawaii with all of the shore line developments. Second in line would be farming within 6 miles of a shoreline. Just so you know, the reefs are dying because of heat and sediment and not so much sun tan lotion. 

Bill


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## krj9999 (Oct 12, 2022)

echino said:


> Do you know many other public beaches elsewhere in the US that charge visitors for parking, but not locals? Normally, if there's paid parking, it's paid for everyone.



Many state beaches/parks have different rates for resident/non-resident.  How much they differ/vary depends on the state.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Taxing tourists more and more isn’t the answer to these problems.



Really depends on what is then done with the tax revenue. Instead of the current "top down" economic model, we really need to switch to "middle-out." As it stands, tourism is good for a handful of people at the top. For the average resident, tourism provides more headache than economic gain. 

And telling people, "So? Don't be average" isn't going to work. 

There's plenty of things locals could do, too. But let's get real about the numbers. The local population is less than 150K. That island gets 250K visitors per month. It fluctuates between 200-300K per month. So 250K is a fair number. These visitors are not paying _nearly_ as much as they could to support the community. (Especially the cruise ship passengers.) 

Now let's take Big Island -- roughly 150K visitors per month on a population of 200K. But the tourism is concentrated in one small part of the island. And the population of that part of the island appx. 70K. So again, way more tourists than locals.

I'm all for any ideas that keep locals from dumping rubbish in the out-of-the-way places, higher minimum wage laws and building more housing. But since tourists often outnumber locals, they should be expected to pay their fair share when they visit. Simply paying the same prices everyone else pays for food and gasoline for a week isn't "paying their fair share."


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Taxing tourists more and more isn’t the answer to these problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I'm not for taxes but what else can Hawaii do to limit so many tourists ? The Maui Island plan was to limit tourist to no more than one third of the islands population yet they exceed that every month. There was a green fee plan for all of Hawaii that would cost each tourist $100 to to enter Hawaii but it hasn't happened yet. They should add a car rental fee of $200 a week, imo. Adding costs is an inequitable approach but likely the only thing that might limit tourism. This approach could be mitigated by an application or permit process. 

The easiest fix might be to do nothing and deal with problems as they arise like they are doing now. 

Bill


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## Henry M. (Oct 12, 2022)

I think tourism is a worldwide problem at every attractive destination. Sure, it brings in some revenue, but eventually kills the goose that lays the golden egg. However, it is a difficult problem to address. Just because someone has lots of money doesn't mean they are going to be any better at taking care of things than someone with less money. Thus, increasing taxes and fees just excludes people strictly based on wealth, not on how well they will behave and treat the environment. I suppose that it is more straightforward to reduce the number of visitors than any other, more egalitarian, approach. 

I would like to see the number of visitors reduced too. I can't think of a way to reduce numbers more efficiently that just making things expensive for them. It is perhaps discriminatory and not inclusive, but what other mechanism can more directly affect the number of people that come?

Regarding housing, I think AirBnB, VRBO, etc. are very damaging to the local housing market. I have stayed in some wonderful places using these services, but Ithink they cause more harm than good. They generally exacerbate the tourism problem by attracting more people to the area, they make housing completely unaffordable for the local population as whole condos become de-facto hotels without the required hotel safety requirements, and generally turn local neighborhoods into transient accommodations. Additional tourists tend to overwhelm the local infrastructure and generally damage the natural environment that attracts tourists to begin with. 

Books like the "Revealed" series popular with visitors are another source of damage, as they highlight lesser known places and encourage visitors to areas that just aren't set up to have throngs of people come by and are not necessarily open to the public.

Overall, I don't think Hawaii truly benefits from tourism, even though it is a great source of revenue. I think they would be better off if the islands were less accessible and could rely on something other than visitors for their livelihood. Growth and progress and not always in the best interest of an area even if they benefit some of its inhabitants.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 12, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> 1) I would like to see the number of visitors reduced too. I can't think of a way to reduce numbers more efficiently that just making things expensive for them. It is perhaps discriminatory and not inclusive, but what other mechanism can more directly affect the number of people that come?
> 
> 2) Regarding housing, I think AirBnB, VRBO, etc. are very damaging to the local housing market. I have stayed in some wonderful places using these services, but Ithink they cause more harm than good.



Numbers added for clarity.

1) A wealthier clientele doesn't necessarily mean a better clientele. I agree completely. (Look at Ironman, for instance. They're the absolute worst. And most of them are riding bicycles which cost more than my truck.) But it DOES mean fewer people visiting the island. And it means they have the means to pay for things -- even if they don't want to. Raising the average net worth of the visitor means that people who offer "build a ukulele" or "learn to cook" classes will do better as a result. The visitor who can only afford Costco can't afford a 70-hour "build a ukulele" class.

2) Short term rentals -- done right -- can actually spur local home ownership. I know several people on Big Island who are renting out a room and using the funds to pay their mortgage. It was still a hard slog to get that down payment together. But that's an example of vacation rentals being positive for the community. Investment houses which are only used as short term rentals do about as much good for local housing as timeshares do, though.


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## echino (Oct 12, 2022)

krj9999 said:


> Many state beaches/parks have different rates for resident/non-resident.  How much they differ/vary depends on the state.



I've never seen anything like that. Can you give an example?


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## slip (Oct 12, 2022)

echino said:


> I've never seen anything like that. Can you give an example?



This is from the Devils Lake State Park Website in Wisconsin.  It's been that way for decades there.


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## sponger76 (Oct 12, 2022)

echino said:


> I've never seen anything like that. Can you give an example?


The town of Surfside Beach, SC has annual parking permits that are $200 for non-resident, non-property owners but residents get two of them for free. Without them, you have to pay hourly, and of course the residents all have them.


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## Henry M. (Oct 12, 2022)

I was thinking more of the dedicated short term rentals, rather than letting someone stay in a room at an owner's residence. There are companies that buy out lots of condos or homes in residential areas just to rent them out as short term rentals. That is much more profitable than renting them to long term tenants but damaging to local residents. I agree that letting someone use part of your home while you are there or on vacation is different. 

Timeshares are essentially condos that are owned by more people. They were usually purpose built in special areas, and not at the expense of housing that would otherwise be used by long term renters. Owners pay taxes and are there a week at a time, but in aggregate would be similar to someone living there full time. However, just like hotels and other high-density housing, they do result in lots more people being in a small area. I suppose at the end of the day, it is an excess of people that is the problem, whether they are tourists or local residents (as in very large cities) driving up the demand for housing and infrastructure. Islands are particularly sensitive to being damaged by this problem.


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## daviator (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better example of NIMBYism in action than this.
> 
> I don’t mind paying a reasonable amount for parking or use private lots with validation (such as Whaler’s Village). But, $10-30 for street parking? That’s just crazy and not the way to solve the “too many tourists” issue. Maui could more easily just increase the tax on rental cars (though perhaps they recognize it’s already too high, and this is a way to distribute the tourist tax).
> 
> ...


Yes, and isn't Lahaina one of the areas where pretty much everyone WANTS the tourists to go?  It's basically a big tourist trap – I mean that in a nice way – and I can't imagine that many locals go there unless they live or work there.  It's the Waikiki of Maui, sort of.  (When I lived on Oahu, I almost never went to Waikiki, because that's where all the tourists were...)

Every tourist that's in Lahaina is buying expensive (some might say overpriced) food, drink and merchandise.  They might be visiting the attractions there.  They are not clogging the beach parks and they are probably doing more for the local economy in Lahaina than if they were anywhere else on the island, simply because there are far more opportunities to spend money concentrated into a small area.

All this is a long-winded way of suggesting that driving tourists out of Lahaina with a $30 street parking fee is just going to hurt the businesses in Lahaina.


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## Ken555 (Oct 13, 2022)

daviator said:


> Yes, and isn't Lahaina one of the areas where pretty much everyone WANTS the tourists to go? It's basically a big tourist trap – I mean that in a nice way – and I can't imagine that many locals go there unless they live or work there. It's the Waikiki of Maui, sort of. (When I lived on Oahu, I almost never went to Waikiki, because that's where all the tourists were...)
> 
> Every tourist that's in Lahaina is buying expensive (some might say overpriced) food, drink and merchandise. They might be visiting the attractions there. They are not clogging the beach parks and they are probably doing more for the local economy in Lahaina than if they were anywhere else on the island, simply because there are far more opportunities to spend money concentrated into a small area.
> 
> All this is a long-winded way of suggesting that driving tourists out of Lahaina with a $30 street parking fee is just going to hurt the businesses in Lahaina.



Yup. Somehow I doubt even Maui County would be that stupid to charge $10-30 for street parking in Lahaina. But then, who knows - this is the same group that thinks timeshare owners should pay multiple times what residents pay on property tax. Taxation without representation… 


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> this is the same group that thinks timeshare owners should pay multiple times what residents pay on property tax. Taxation without representation…



How many residents are living directly on the ocean in a relatively posh condo?

There's one such condo for rent on Big Island -- commanding ocean views; "perfect for Ironman." Looks like most of the timeshares in the area. Rent is $12,000 per month. I imagine the property taxes there are rather steep as well. You can see it on Facebook Marketplace. It popped up when I was looking for coffee roasting machines.


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## Ken555 (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> How many residents are living directly on the ocean in a relatively posh condo?
> 
> There's one such condo for rent on Big Island -- commanding ocean views; "perfect for Ironman." Looks like most of the timeshares in the area. Rent is $12,000 per month. I imagine the property taxes there are rather steep as well. You can see it on Facebook Marketplace. It popped up when I was looking for coffee roasting machines.



What is the property tax % for condo vs timeshare on the Big Island? On Maui there is a huge difference. Changing rate based on location of the unit is not, I don’t believe, codified in the local property tax regulations. You may be surprised how much Maui charges timeshares vs other real property, even hotels!


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> What is the property tax % for condo vs timeshare on the Big Island? On Maui there is a huge difference. Changing rate based on location of the unit is not, I don’t believe, codified in the local property tax regulations. You may be surprised how much Maui charges timeshares vs other real property, even hotels!



I admit I don't know the answer. But since it's 1/52nd of "screwage," it can't be all that bad.

I see you're in Los Angeles. And I'd be willing to wager my property taxes vs. yours. I'll pay yours, you pay mine. There's always the chance I roll snake eyes and you've got a palace in Brentwood. But I know what I pay, and it is egregious -- because it's no longer zoned agricultural after I bought the place. I have to whack at the jungle and then call the county for an inspection for every acre I clear.

Coastal properties pay exorbitant taxes, large properties pay exorbitant taxes, fee-simple properties pay exorbitant taxes.

EDIT -- Let's go with the timeshare down the road from me. Kona Coast. I can drive there in 10 minutes. Residents probably think they're being taxed on their 1000 square feet of condo. But it's so much more than that. Those four acres of useless rocks by the water? That is all taxed at the same rate. As is all the grass landscaping, the pool, the barbecues, the trails. Any timeshare which isn't "small and tight" is going to have egregious taxes compared to some local who has one-tenth of an acre and a small house. And frankly, that's as it should be.


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## Ken555 (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I admit I don't know the answer. But since it's 1/52nd of "screwage," it can't be all that bad.



I disagree with your implied suggestion that it doesn’t matter since it’s only 1/52, nor that since it’s a luxury item the rich should pay more.

I’m on a train with poor internet or else I’d do the research right now and post links, but it’s been discussed on TUG for years. IIRC, Maui timeshares pay 14% property tax, while hotels pay ~8% and condos/homes are about 2%. Let’s stick to this issue and try not to distract ourselves with rationalizations, as you have done several times now. Do you think it’s justified that timeshare owners pay ~7 times as much as residents in property tax, additional daily room taxes, car rental taxes, etc etc? In addition to all that, you also think it’s also okay for these same people to pay up to $30 to park a rental car so that they can spend more money at Maui businesses? 


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## krj9999 (Oct 13, 2022)

echino said:


> I've never seen anything like that. Can you give an example?



Delaware: $5/vehicle resident, $10/vehicle non resident (ocean parks, daily cost)  
Passes, Tags and Fees - Delaware State Parks (destateparks.com) 

Maryland - different parks have different pricing (entrance or parking)
Service Charges for Maryland State Parks 

The town of Dewey Beach in Delaware has lower seasonal parking pass costs for property owners.
Town of Dewey Beach Delaware - Parking Meters and Permits in Effect


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Do you think it’s justified that timeshare owners pay ~7 times as much as residents in property tax, additional daily room taxes, car rental taxes, etc etc? In addition to all that, you also think it’s also okay for these same people to pay up to $30 to park a rental car so that they can spend more money at Maui businesses?



Yes, I think it's justified. And yes, the parking fees are fine.

Maui is trying to throttle visitors to the point where they dwindle to one-third of the island's total population. Short of a visitation lottery, raising fees and taxes is the surest way to decrease head count.

From what I've seen, locals have had enough. After two years of greatly-reduced tourism, they don't want to return to pre-pandemic numbers. They are voting for tourism-limiting policies and for people who promise to continue throttling tourism. Mitch Roth is very likely to lose his seat on the Big Island over Ironman. "Why did you bring it back? And why is it TWO days now? You didn't consult with ANYONE. We don't want this here."

When I lived in Las Vegas, I occasionally heard visitors grouse about the all the room taxes they pay. "Locals barely have to pay ANYTHING! We're paying it all!"

Locals: "That's right. Thanks for subsidizing my property taxes. Good luck at the tables!"

I'm totally rooting for Maui. I hope they find some kind of balance. And then the other islands can follow Maui's lead.


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## lynne (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> What is the property tax % for condo vs timeshare on the Big Island? On Maui there is a huge difference. Changing rate based on location of the unit is not, I don’t believe, codified in the local property tax regulations. You may be surprised how much Maui charges timeshares vs other real property, even hotels!



Hawaii County does not separate out timeshares from resort/hotel properties.  Condos that are not owner occupied are taxed at the apartment rate same as homes that are not owner occupied are taxed at the residential rate based on assessment.
*Hawaii County Tax Rates*

*Property Class**Taxable per/$1000*Affordable Renting Housing$6.15Agricultural/Native Forests$9.35Apartment$11.70Commercial$10.70Conservation$11.55Homeowner$6.15Hotel/Resort$11.55Industrial$10.70Residential (<$2M)$11.10Residential (>$2M)$13.60


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## Ken555 (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Yes, I think it's justified. And yes, the parking fees are fine.
> 
> Maui is trying to throttle visitors to the point where they dwindle to one-third of the island's total population. Short of a visitation lottery, raising fees and taxes is the surest way to decrease head count.
> 
> ...



I agree with the goal of limiting tourism, but I think there may be a better solution than this. After all, Maui approved construction of all those hotels and timeshares. They exist. The owners of those properties want them filled. I would suggest that if Maui wanted to limit tourists the first thing that they should do is ban all private short term rentals via companies like Airbnb. Yes, people like your neighbor would be impacted (if they rent nightly) but they weren’t likely renting before Airbnb and they are now directly contributing to the problem of over tourism. 


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## Ken555 (Oct 13, 2022)

lynne said:


> Hawaii County does not separate out timeshares from resort/hotel properties. Condos that are not owner occupied are taxed at the apartment rate same as homes that are not owner occupied are taxed at the residential rate based on assessment.
> *Hawaii County Tax Rates*
> 
> *Property Class**Taxable per/$1000*Affordable Renting Housing$6.15Agricultural/Native Forests$9.35Apartment$11.70Commercial$10.70Conservation$11.55Homeowner$6.15Hotel/Resort$11.55Industrial$10.70Residential (TD]
> [TD]$11.10 Residential (>$2M)$13.60



First page with the rates from Maui:





__





						MAUI REAL PROPERTY TAX RATE 2022 - 2023 | Mary Anne Fitch
					

Maui County Council shaves property taxes for owner-occupied homes




					soldmaui.com
				




Note this page also states:



> New rates approved this past May by Maui County Council trim property taxes for most residents who live in their own homes.
> 
> Owner-occupied rates of $2.41 at Tier 1 and $2.51 at Tier 2 per $1,000 of net taxable assessed value were shaved to $2 and $2.10, respectively. Owners at the highest Tier 3 remained the same at $2.71.
> 
> Council voted 6-0, with members Shane Sinenci, Kelly King and Mike Molina absent and excused, to set real property tax rates for the next fiscal year, which began July 1.



So not only are they increasing taxes on tourists they are reducing the cost to many of the residents. This may be fully justified…I simply find it interesting that they are reducing taxes on locals (who vote) and continuing to increase taxes on tourists (who don’t vote). 







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## geist1223 (Oct 13, 2022)

Maui should shut down the rental of single family homes. Allow the ocean free rein in Kaanapali and other areas. Limit the number of Passenger Jets.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I agree with the goal of limiting tourism, but I think there may be a better solution than this. After all, Maui approved construction of all those hotels and timeshares.



The people who live there now didn't approve timeshares from 30 years ago. Or they were children when those projects were approved. 

The residents have spoken -- they want visitor numbers dialed back. If they over-do it, they might regret that choice as well. But they are allowed to have agency over their community. Tourists lack such agency. If it were up to me, we'd find a way to limit only the dumb-dumbs. But since we can't interview people as they try to board a plane -- to weed out the litterbugs, wildlife molesters, insanely-bad drivers, and the perpetually indignant -- some other mechanism is necessary.

And we know raising taxes and fees works.

My guess is that people who live there saw the bumper stickers other islands use: "Keep Kauai Beautiful: Tell your family to go to Maui" and decided that's quite enough.

What can tourists do? They can self-police. If a tourist sees another tourist behaving like a spoiled child, call him or her out. "Stop that. You're making people miserable." Servers, bartenders, clerks and tour guides aren't allowed to say anything. They have to smile and take it -- keep that money flowing. I just did that the other day during Ironman. A triathlete was hectoring a clerk at Choicemart over the price of eggs. 

"Stop it. She doesn't have any control over the price. That's what eggs cost."

He looked at me like I just threw cold water in his face. But he took his eggs to the register. 

Decades of "the customer is always right" has turned too many people into spoiled, demanding blowhards.

My guess is that Maui is going to keep slinging policy-pizzas at the wall until something sticks.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I admit I don't know the answer. But since it's 1/52nd of "screwage," it can't be all that bad.
> 
> I see you're in Los Angeles. And I'd be willing to wager my property taxes vs. yours. I'll pay yours, you pay mine. There's always the chance I roll snake eyes and you've got a palace in Brentwood. But I know what I pay, and it is egregious -- because it's no longer zoned agricultural after I bought the place. I have to whack at the jungle and then call the county for an inspection for every acre I clear.
> 
> ...



I think you may go broke if Ken555 from LA took you up on your property tax swap offer.  I don't know the exact amount of his LA property taxes but I do know that the property taxes in Hawaii are really low.  We owned a house worth about 300K in New York and the property taxes were over $8,000/yr.  The property taxes on my 600K Condo in Honolulu are under $2,000/yr.


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## easyrider (Oct 13, 2022)

The Golden Rule will likely decide everything as it always does and that is why nothing will change except an unenforceable ban on certain sun tan lotions and inconsequential fee's for most tourists, imo. 

Bill


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## Henry M. (Oct 13, 2022)

I think the problem on Maui is the sheer number of visitors. Most are good people, but there is just too many of us. 

Another approach to limiting the number is to just allow so many visitors per day. One visitor has to leave for another one to be let in. Since almost all come by air, it should not be that hard to control. It would be one heck of an inconvenience to plan a trip, but it will limit the number of people and does not rely on people's finances to discriminate on who gets to visit. It would be the luck of the draw. 

Personally, I'd hate such a system, but I also don't like the current level of tourism either.

Just brainstorming some possibilities, they could limit short term rentals to just owner occupied properties that rent out a room or a cottage. They could also cut back on the number of flights allowed from the mainland, with perhaps some preferential system for permanent residents of the islands.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaii has three major problems: lack of housing, low wages and pollution. The housing problem is a double-edged sword because that's also pushing average rent up. Too many non-residents snapping up property as investments and "to retire to someday."
> 
> Developers don't build affordable housing because there's more profit building McMansions. And try to get a permit from the county to build anything at all -- it can take years.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that Hawaii doesn't have the infrastructure for the amount of people who are visiting. So who is going to pay for that? Locals? Most of 'em are holding on by their fingernails already. Everyone who visits knows how expensive this place is. Now try it on $12/hr wages. (Which is what most people who work in the tourist areas make.) That minimum wage just went into effect this month. It took years to implement -- by the time workers here get a higher minimum, it's already too little to live on.



You have mentioned before that you have friends that make a living on tips from tourists.  Well I just read that Hawaii is concerned now that tourists have started to give up on coming to Hawaii.  The gravy train of taxing and charging tourists that Hawaii has been riding on may be subsiding.  Those that live off the income and tips that come from tourists may start to be hurting.  Less Tourists, less jobs, less hours, less tips.  You may be getting your wish that less tourists will come.  You may have an opportunity to pay some bills for friends and families that can no longer afford food since they have no job, or less hours at their jobs, or less tips.  

Furthermore, we tip very well.  We always tip at least 20% for restaurants, $20 for bellman, and we tip cabs when we have lots of luggage or lots of groceries between 30-50%.  However, if we (or tourists) feel that they are being ripped off by parking fees, arrival fees, or TAT(transit accomdations taxes) that may be the reason for poor tipping.  One wants to feel good about coming to Hawaii on vacation not pissed off by unusual fees and taxes.  DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU, DON'T KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE!!


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I think you may go broke if Ken555 from LA took you up on your property tax swap offer.  I don't know the exact amount of his LA property taxes but I do know that the property taxes in Hawaii are really low.  We owned a house worth about 300K in New York and the property taxes were over $8,000/yr.  The property taxes on my 600K Condo in Honolulu are under $2,000/yr.



I would give my right arm to have property taxes of $8,000 per year. My property taxes are the two biggest checks I write each year. When the farm changed hands, it lost its "grandfathered" status and the whole big mess was classified as residential.

As I clear each acre and restore/replant (there are thousands of coffee trees which only need to have the christmasberry removed so they can thrive), my property taxes go down from $13.60 to $9.50 per thousand. I've managed to clear three acres in roughly one full year of restoring the farm. (Previously, I was back-and-forth to the mainland, winding down my life there.) Here full time, and with some help, I hope to have the rest done by the end of the decade. That will help. But my taxes are still going to be sky high.



Tamaradarann said:


> You have mentioned before that you have friends that make a living on tips from tourists.  Well I just read that Hawaii is concerned now that tourists have started to give up on coming to Hawaii. The gravy train of taxing and charging tourists that Hawaii has been riding on may be subsiding.



The restaurants around here (such that they are), are slammed-busy most nights. If we cut numbers in half, they'll STILL be busy.

I have absolutely no fear that people will wake up one day and decide to stop coming. (Also, it wouldn't affect me. But I don't want my neighbors to suffer.) People are going to fly here because it's nice all the time. Can't say that about most places.

If Maui wants to put the squeeze on in order to winnow tourists, that's their prerogative. If they go too far, they'll know it almost instantly. I wish them luck -- if they find the secret sauce which limits visitor numbers but still makes for a robust economy, great! We can copy their policies. Over-tourism is a problem -- and that is more likely to "kill the goose" than raising fees. If the islands become trashed, with dead coral reefs and plastic strewn everywhere, people will stop coming. I would rather they stop coming because they don't like the prices than stop coming because the islands have been beaten to death.


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## RunCat (Oct 13, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I agree with the goal of limiting tourism, but I think there may be a better solution than this.



Easier solution: 
1)   Limit the number of flights that can land at the airport. It worked during the Covid-19 crisis.  It could probably work again. 
2)   Limit construction size and shutdown hotels. If there is no place to stay, people won't visit. 

But both of those things will dramatically affect the income of the island.  It is much easier to increase the parking fees in order to  collect more money from those that are visiting, and at the same time pretending to do something about the problem.   I lived most of my life in Santa Monica, parking and tourism are HUGE problems. But charging more for parking has not stopped people from visiting; they just parked somewhere else.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I would give my right arm to have property taxes of $8,000 per year. My property taxes are the two biggest checks I write each year. When the farm changed hands, it lost its "grandfathered" status and the whole big mess was classified as residential.
> 
> As I clear each acre and restore/replant (there are thousands of coffee trees which only need to have the christmasberry removed so they can thrive), my property taxes go down from $13.60 to $9.50 per thousand. I've managed to clear three acres in roughly one full year of restoring the farm. (Previously, I was back-and-forth to the mainland, winding down my life there.) Here full time, and with some help, I hope to have the rest done by the end of the decade. That will help. But my taxes are still going to be sky high.
> 
> ...



You are talking about taxes on a huge valuable farm.  I am talking about taxes on a 1100 sq. ft house on a small plot.  That is not comparable.  What would your taxes be on a house worth $300,000?   

You were complaining about the poor people who live here in Hawaii and are struggling just to get by, I wasn't.  Ask those in the restauanrt business if you can cut the number of tourists in half and they would still be busy enough to make the income they are making.  

You have some good thoughts but you need to place yourself in other shoes when you speak about others: 

Be a melanoma survivor that wears SPF 50 clothing but needs to put on sunblock on exposed skin everyday before he goes out to be able to enjoy Hawaii when walking everywhere without going in the water.  

Be a waiter who makes $200/day including tips right now and gets to work 6 days a week.  Tourists are cut in half so now he makes $150/day and his employer says he needs him only to work 3 days a week to keep from laying off other waiters or waitresses. 

You have valuable land and farm so you are not in the waiter's shoes.  Speak from your own place and let others speak for themselves.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> You have valuable land and farm so you are not in the waiter's shoes.  Speak from your own place and let others speak for themselves.



I am repeating what I hear. The servers hate Ironman because nobody tips. They work like crazy for no money. That event can go away permanently and people will breathe a sigh of relief. That's just one example of "too much."

You can wear all the SPF 50 you want -- as long as there is zero chance that it causes reef bleaching.

People who visit can afford to visit Hawaii. Many Hawaiians can't afford to visit Hawaii. One of my neighbors lives in a unpermitted plywood shack. It's the best he can afford -- he's paying rent on that place. (My neighbor on the South side is a macadamia farmer. That's how it goes here -- slumlord on one side, salt of the earth on the other.)

And just a reminder, I'm not saying Maui should cut it's visitors to one-third of their population. Maui is saying Maui should cut it's visitors to one-third. I merely hope they succeed -- then we can take their ideas and run with them. If they want to be the testing ground for finding sustainable numbers, GREAT. Because by all accounts, they have it worse than we do on the Big Island. Even the tourists are saying there's too many tourists. It's a shame we can't easily forbid just the difficult tourists. That would be ideal -- every Karen gets her Maui-privileges revoked. Sorted.

No matter how Maui decides to throttle tourism, there will be disappointment. There is no way to tell someone "you can't come here" without disappointment. But they've had enough crowds and are ready to do something about it. I expect the other islands will follow suit.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 13, 2022)

Double post


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## lynne (Oct 13, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> I think the problem on Maui is the sheer number of visitors. Most are good people, but there is just too many of us.
> 
> Another approach to limiting the number is to just allow so many visitors per day. One visitor has to leave for another one to be let in. Since almost all come by air, it should not be that hard to control. It would be one heck of an inconvenience to plan a trip, but it will limit the number of people and does not rely on people's finances to discriminate on who gets to visit. It would be the luck of the draw.
> 
> ...



I am not sure how it would be possible to limit visitors into Hawaii or any other state.  The state government does not have any power to limit the number of flights landing in Hawaii. It is federal law that allows americans to travel interstate anywhere in the US.   The FAA regulates the number of slots that airlines can use at any major airport.   All the Hawaii govenor could do during covid-19 is to ask visitors not to come and if they do, they must have a negative test and/or quarantine in a specific location that was set up. 

As a side note, residents who live here full time have been trying to get rid of short term vacation rentals outside of resort designated areas where owners do not live on-site.  There has not been too much success thanks to lots of platforms available for advertising illegal rentals.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 14, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Another approach to limiting the number is to just allow so many visitors per day. One visitor has to leave for another one to be let in. Since almost all come by air, it should not be that hard to control. It would be one heck of an inconvenience to plan a trip, but it will limit the number of people and does not rely on people's finances to discriminate on who gets to visit. It would be the luck of the draw.
> 
> Just brainstorming some possibilities, they could limit short term rentals to just owner occupied properties that rent out a room or a cottage. They could also cut back on the number of flights allowed from the mainland, with perhaps some preferential system for permanent residents of the islands.



Actually, limiting the number of flights, if it were even legally possible, would also result in people's finances determining who can come to Hawaii and who can't. If the number of seats arriving in the state every day were cut by some significant percentage, prices would rise significantly as well. Air travel pricing is determined by supply and demand market forces - reduce the supply the price goes up. Just like gas prices.

Note, I'm not offering an opinion on whether using pricing to reduce tourism is a right or wrong approach. I'm only suggesting that reducing the number of flights is not finances-independent and will certainly increase prices, just as additional fees and taxes will.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Actually, limiting the number of flights, if it were even legally possible, would also result in people's finances determining who can come to Hawaii and who can't.



100% correct.

No matter what Maui does to throttle tourism, it's going to end up being "who can afford it." Whether it's scarce rooms, scarce flights, scarce rental cars or scarce parking. It boils down to money. That's our barometer, like it or not. There's no other way because that's how this society is set up.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I am repeating what I hear. The servers hate Ironman because nobody tips. They work like crazy for no money. That event can go away permanently and people will breathe a sigh of relief. That's just one example of "too much."
> 
> You can wear all the SPF 50 you want -- as long as there is zero chance that it causes reef bleaching.
> 
> ...



Again you have some good ideas.  However, not only didn't you place yourself in other people shoes about being a waiter and being a Melanoma survivor in your response, you didn't respond to the property tax question at all.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Again you have some good ideas.  However, not only didn't you place yourself in other people shoes about being a waiter and being a Melanoma survivor in your response, you didn't respond to the property tax question at all.



Because being a melanoma survivor doesn't give anyone license to use chemicals which destroy coral reefs. That is non sequitur.

Ken doesn't like his $11.50/thousand tax rate. I'm paying $13.60. And he's getting more for his $11.50 than I am for my $13.60. I pay an awful lot of taxes for not a whole lot of county services. I don't whinge on about it because I accept that taxation is the price for living here. There are community needs which need to be addressed. And that's the system we have to address them. My taxes amount to the equivalent of buying a couple full-freight timeshare weeks in Hawaii each year. Just how it is.

The point which few tourists will address is that if Maui wants to reduce tourism, someone has to be denied entry. People are beating around the bush about "fairness." There is no way to limit visitation in such a way that everyone thinks it's fair. We could have a lottery -- and people will say it's unfair. We can raise taxes and fees -- and people will say it's unfair. We can knock down hotels and burn down illegal AirBnBs -- and people will say it's unfair.

But it is ALSO unfair to expect residents to put up with far too many visitors. It's unfair to demand that everyone be allowed in, which then trashes the island, which is known for its scenic beauty.

And, since beating around the bush is pointless, it is patently unfair for visitors to demand that their hosts follow their rules. You can't come to my house and then tell me what the rules are. Maui gets to decide the rules. And then visitors get to decide if they want to follow them or go elsewhere.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Because being a melanoma survivor doesn't give anyone license to use chemicals which destroy coral reefs. That is non sequitur.
> 
> Ken doesn't like his $11.50/thousand tax rate. I'm paying $13.60. And he's getting more for his $11.50 than I am for my $13.60. I pay an awful lot of taxes for not a whole lot of county services. I don't whinge on about it because I accept that taxation is the price for living here. There are community needs which need to be addressed. And that's the system we have to address them. My taxes amount to the equivalent of buying a couple full-freight timeshare weeks in Hawaii each year. Just how it is.
> 
> ...



If you are paying at the $13.60 property tax rate your property must be worth more than $2,000,000.  No wonder you have a problem with walking in the average person's shoes.  You are way above the average in wealth.  The tax rate for the house in NY is more than $30/thousand.  I know that I pay about $8,000 for a house that is assessed about $300,000.  If you were taxes at that rate you would be paying more than double what you pay now.  

As far a sunblock my husband wears SPF 50 clothing and uses SPF 50 sunblock everyday on exposed skin.  He does his best to avoid contaiminating the Ocean and damaging the Coral.  He doesn't go in the water.  He doesnt have a license to wear the sunblock but he does have Doctor's Orders.  As I said before, if Maui enforces the sunblock law perhaps it has found the way to reduce tourists.  There are other beautiful islands in Hawaii for us to visit and spend our money.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> As far a sunblock my husband wears SPF 50 clothing and uses SPF 50 sunblock everyday on exposed skin.  He does his best to avoid contaiminating the Ocean and damaging the Coral.  He doesn't go in the water.  He doesnt have a license to wear the sunblock but he does have Doctor's Orders.  As I said before, if Maui enforces the sunblock law perhaps it has found the way to reduce tourists.  There are other beautiful islands in Hawaii for us to visit and spend our money.



"Doing his best" and "not doing any damage" aren't the same thing.

If he is doing his best then he isn't doing any damage. Period. There is no way you can convince me that you have tried every formulation of reef-friendly sunscreen and found every single one of them to be ineffective. 

It is my sincere hope that the nations of the world come together on this issue like they did for chlorofluorocarbons in the 1980s. I remember the public outcry for that -- people demanding their lives would suffer without their beloved hairspray and refrigerants. Fast forward 30 years, and the pearl-clutching seems silly looking back.

Your argument is akin to saying, "I have a two-pack-a-day nicotine habit, so I demand that I be allowed to smoke in your house." Nope. You can't. You can smoke elsewhere. Or you can visit my house but not smoke. Every reasonable person should agree with that. 

Second-hand smoke isn't nearly as toxic as the chemicals which are bleaching coral reefs. Maui should be applauded for trying to get in front of this. The world needs coral reefs.


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## Ken555 (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Ken doesn't like his $11.50/thousand tax rate. I'm paying $13.60. And he's getting more for his $11.50 than I am for my $13.60. I pay an awful lot of taxes for not a whole lot of county services. I don't whinge on about it because I accept that taxation is the price for living here. There are community needs which need to be addressed. And that's the system we have to address them. My taxes amount to the equivalent of buying a couple full-freight timeshare weeks in Hawaii each year. Just how it is.



See the property tax chart for Maui which I posted earlier for accurate numbers.

What you pay for your property or what I pay for mine is irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is what Maui charges, and the huge disparity between property types and that timeshares are singled out as the highest tax rate is troublesome. I understand the rationale behind such decisions, I just disagree with it. Now, the same county, which believes in taxing those whom have zero representation in their government, are considering adding a high parking fee in order to frequent local businesses that rely upon those same tourists for their livelihood. If I had to pay $30 to park for a few hours in Lahaina, there’s a close to zero chance I would visit that area but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t go to Maui. Not sure that really helps the root problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> See the property tax chart for Maui which I posted earlier for accurate numbers.
> 
> What you pay for your property or what I pay for mine is irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is what Maui charges, and the huge disparity between property types and that timeshares are singled out as the highest tax rate is troublesome. I understand the rationale behind such decisions, I just disagree with it. Now, the same county, which believes in taxing those whom have zero representation in their government, are considering adding a high parking fee in order to frequent local businesses that rely upon those same tourists for their livelihood. If I had to pay $30 to park for a few hours in Lahaina, there’s a close to zero chance I would visit that area but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t go to Maui. Not sure that really helps the root problem.



But you are getting value for your tax dollar -- surely you can admit that. And I think it is very likely that you are getting _more_ value for your tax dollar than I am for mine. That's my point. You need road crews, tree trimmers, engineers and similar county services for each week you're in your timeshare. Maui is far more developed and far less rough than the Big Island. 

I'll just keep saying it -- it's up to the hosts to make the rules. The guests can make their decision about whether to keep coming.

Every month, there are 1.3 visitors for every resident. Imagine if 5.2 million people visited Los Angeles every month. That would be 20 million more visitors per year than Los Angeles currently gets. Driving there is already a nightmare. I can't imagine what kind of pressure 20 million additional tourists would create.


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## slip (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> But you are getting value for your tax dollar -- surely you can admit that. And I think it is very likely that you are getting _more_ value for your tax dollar than I am for mine. That's my point. You need road crews, tree trimmers, engineers and similar county services for each week you're in your timeshare. Maui is far more developed and far less rough than the Big Island.
> 
> I'll just keep saying it -- it's up to the hosts to make the rules. The guests can make their decision about whether to keep coming.
> 
> Every month, there are 1.3 visitors for every resident. Imagine if 5.2 million people visited Los Angeles every month. That would be 20 million more visitors per year than Los Angeles currently gets. Driving there is already a nightmare. I can't imagine what kind of pressure 20 million additional tourists would create.



Aww man, you didn't mention Aqua Net, You're slipping.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> "Doing his best" and "not doing any damage" aren't the same thing.
> 
> If he is doing his best then he isn't doing any damage. Period. There is no way you can convince me that you have tried every formulation of reef-friendly sunscreen and found every single one of them to be ineffective.
> 
> ...



You continue to not want to acknowledge the fact that you own a very expensive piece of property and should be paying high taxes, but even though you complain about your tax rate it is not nearly as high as the tax rate on Long Island that I have paid.

Your comment about second hand smoke is ridiculous.  You again don't or can't put yourself in the shoes of those who have respiratory problems or lung cancer and have never smoked or the loved ones who are watching someone with those deseases suffer and die.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> But you are getting value for your tax dollar -- surely you can admit that. And I think it is very likely that you are getting _more_ value for your tax dollar than I am for mine. That's my point. You need road crews, tree trimmers, engineers and similar county services for each week you're in your timeshare. Maui is far more developed and far less rough than the Big Island.
> 
> I'll just keep saying it -- it's up to the hosts to make the rules. The guests can make their decision about whether to keep coming.
> 
> Every month, there are 1.3 visitors for every resident. Imagine if 5.2 million people visited Los Angeles every month. That would be 20 million more visitors per year than Los Angeles currently gets. Driving there is already a nightmare. I can't imagine what kind of pressure 20 million additional tourists would create.



We certainly agree on one thing. The hosts make the rules.  The guests make the decision about whether to come or not.  The Maui sunblock law is new, the enforcement is questionable, and the availabilty and quality of the permitted sunblocks is up for investigation.  However, at this point we have made the decision to not book any stays in Maui for the forseeable future.  Honolulu right now, Island of Hawaii in February, and Kauai in May.


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## geist1223 (Oct 14, 2022)

Maybe that State of Hawaii should buy 50% of the Hotels at Fair Market Price and then knock them down.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> You continue to not want to acknowledge the fact that you own a very expensive piece of property and should be paying high taxes, but even though you complain about your tax rate it is not nearly as high as the tax rate on Long Island that I have paid.
> 
> Your comment about second hand smoke is ridiculous.  You again don't or can't put yourself in the shoes of those who have respiratory problems or lung cancer and have never smoked or the loved ones who are watching someone with those deseases suffer and die.



I'm not complaining about my taxes. Find a place where I'm complaining. I don't think I'm getting the kind of value for my dollar that a Maui timeshare owner is getting for his or hers. But that has merit on my point -- the taxes paid by timeshare owners are comparable to what hotel guests and other short-term visitors pay. They're not residents. They shouldn't be treated like residents. They shouldn't be taxed like residents. And there are residents who pay more than they do. Me, for instance. We're in different counties. But only 80 scant miles away.

And you are refusing to acknowledge that Maui residents get to have a say about what goes into their water supply. The medical condition has no standing. Just like I don't get to say, "I know smoking is banned on airplanes, but I have a doctor's note that says I'm allowed to smoke. So I'm lighting up."

Again, it is my sincere hope that the world comes together and bans reef-bleaching chemicals. Then it won't be a problem anymore. And we can disband the sunscreen police. That's how I'd like to see that problem solved. And I hope they do it tomorrow.

Most tourists refuse to acknowledge the problem: Maui wants to cut the visitor numbers by one third.

* Maui can ask the FAA to limit inbound flights by one third. And everyone's airfare goes up as a result.

* Maui can knock down one third of available short term housing -- including the possibility of your housing. Feeling lucky? Everyone else's hotel prices goes up as a result.

* Maui can raise fees for visiting until one third of the visitors decide to go elsewhere. Probably another Hawaiian island, which will then enact their own rules.

* Maui can install a lottery system for individual visitor passes -- better hope everyone in the family gets their number drawn.

Or

* Maui can suck it up and let as many people visit as the market will allow, completely ignoring the will of the residents.


If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.


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## Ken555 (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> But you are getting value for your tax dollar -- surely you can admit that. And I think it is very likely that you are getting _more_ value for your tax dollar than I am for mine. That's my point. You need road crews, tree trimmers, engineers and similar county services for each week you're in your timeshare. Maui is far more developed and far less rough than the Big Island.



You keep comparing the Big Island to Maui, and I keep suggesting that we limit the conversation to Maui. The tax policy on the Big Island is not in question in this thread - but Maui's is. Let's just talk about that, eh?



> I'll just keep saying it -- it's up to the hosts to make the rules.



I have never disputed this. In fact, I have repeatedly mentioned that timeshare owners are being taxed the highest in the county, and you don't care, even though they are not represented in local government. There is not even the hint of appreciation by the county for the timeshare owners, who regularly visit and spend money in their community. They licensed those timeshares to be built, they regulated the number of cars each resort can have (and is, I believe, the reason why Westin Nanea predominantly has 2-bed units vs 1-bed & studio lockoffs, since they wanted to limit the number of cars). 

Maui and Hawaii marketing encourages us to visit - why would the State and local governments do this if they didn't want visitors?


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> You keep comparing the Big Island to Maui, and I keep suggesting that we limit the conversation to Maui. The tax policy on the Big Island is not in question in this thread - but Maui's is. Let's just talk about that, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Numbers added for clarity.

1) Do you vote there? Can you vote in two places?

You want to eat your cake and have it to. I'm willing to bet if you lived there, you would be gung-ho about the city trying to rein in the crazy. If you want representation in Maui, you need to be a resident. Owning 1/52nd of a condo should not give you any expectation of a voice in local government. Just like my 1/52nd of a Key West condo doesn't give me any agency there -- and that was my home. If Key West jacks timeshare taxes through the roof, bully for them! It would be high time they did something about too much tourism. Does a New York resident who owns a condo in Florida get to vote for Florida county commissioners? Same thing.

2) Why do they have competing messages? For the same reason many states have a department which runs a lottery, and a department of Health and Human Services which is 100% against state-sponsored gambling. Taxpayer money isn't funding "Come Visit Hawaii" marketing. Chamber of Commerce money is -- the people who make all the money on tourism. That isn't the same as the will of the voters. The Chamber of Commerce loves tourism. Joe Six-Poi? Not so much.

Most residents do not see enough direct economic benefit to be in favor of the kind of numbers Maui is pulling. I gave four examples of ways Maui can limit tourism, and a "Suck it up. [Censored] you, Maui" alternative. 

Which of those five do you prefer? Or do you have another way of knocking the visitor count down by one third? Because if you do, I'd love to hear it. I'd go with "limit commercial airline activity" AND "eminent domain one third of all hotels/timeshare rooms and knock them down, turning them into parks." (And make the hotels and timeshares they knock down completely random. Just keep pulling names from a hat -- Hunger Games style -- until they reach their number.)


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I'm not complaining about my taxes. Find a place where I'm complaining. I don't think I'm getting the kind of value for my dollar that a Maui timeshare owner is getting for his or hers. But that has merit on my point -- the taxes paid by timeshare owners are comparable to what hotel guests and other short-term visitors pay. They're not residents. They shouldn't be treated like residents. They shouldn't be taxed like residents. And there are residents who pay more than they do. Me, for instance. We're in different counties. But only 80 scant miles away.
> 
> And you are refusing to acknowledge that Maui residents get to have a say about what goes into their water supply. The medical condition has no standing. Just like I don't get to say, "I know smoking is banned on airplanes, but I have a doctor's note that says I'm allowed to smoke. So I'm lighting up."
> 
> ...



You told Ken555 that you would trade your taxes with him.  That is complaining about your taxes.

When you get a doctor's note that you must smoke then you can continue your rediculous reasoning.

If Maui wants to get tourists down by 1/3 they should just raise their TAT which is very high already(We paid about $30/night in September).  Raise it to $300/night.   Timeshare owners would have to pay over $2K for a week in Maui that they own.  Hotel rooms would be over $1000/night.  No problem with too many people coming.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 14, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> 1) You told Ken555 that you would trade your taxes with him.  That is complaining about your taxes.
> 
> When you get a doctor's note that you must smoke then you can continue your rediculous reasoning.
> 
> 2) If Maui wants to get tourists down by 1/3 they should just raise their TAT which is very high already(We paid about $30/night in September).  Raise it to $300/night.   Timeshare owners would have to pay over $2K for a week in Maui that they own.  Hotel rooms would be over $1000/night.  No problem with too many people coming.



Numbers added for clarity.

1) I'll gladly trade taxes with Ken. I'll also gladly trade taxes with you. I'm not complaining about my taxes. But if someone else volunteers to pay them -- and I can pay 1/10 or less of what I normally pay, that'd be just great. You get to enjoy Hawaii's property tax rates -- and I'll enjoy yours. That's an offer that can stand for eternity.

2) There are several ways Maui can reduce visitors by one third. Raising government fees is the easiest way. They don't have to buy any hotels/timeshares that way. Just keep raising room taxes until they hit their numbers. I think that's how they'll implement their plan. But maybe they'll also throttle flights and eminent domain some hotels/timeshares.

Regardless, I wish them luck. I hope they can find the secret sauce that means higher quality of life for residents and maintain a robust economy.

As for smoking, I don't. It's bad for everyone -- the smoker most of all. But my point stands. You don't get to come to my house and tell me you're allowed to smoke. (Tobacco, cannabis, meth, crack -- don't care). And Maui is 100% in the right when they say, "You don't get to come here and use chemicals which cause reef bleaching." No matter what anyone's medical condition is, they don't get to use Oxybenzone just because they say they can.


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## Ken555 (Oct 15, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> You want to eat your cake and have it to.



Actually, that would be you. You want the tourist money with less tourists.

I agree with the earlier post. The transit tax should be the vehicle to increase taxes on tourists and encourage them to not visit. Parking fees and more are just slight cuts that aren’t always felt until it’s too late, but if the nightly tax increased and if it was disclosed at time of reservation in a clear and unambiguous manner then that might actually have the result you want.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ScoopKona (Oct 15, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Actually, that would be you. You want the tourist money with less tourists.
> 
> I agree with the earlier post. The transit tax should be the vehicle to increase taxes on tourists and encourage them to not visit. Parking fees and more are just slight cuts that aren’t always felt until it’s too late, but if the nightly tax increased and if it was disclosed at time of reservation in a clear and unambiguous manner then that might actually have the result you want.



Actually, I would prefer zero tourism. I don't need anyone visiting at all. I sold most of my produce to Japan last year. And I don't speak a word of Japanese. Next year, I'm going to try to open some market opportunities in Taiwan -- at least I speak the language.

Zero tourism would be bad for my neighbors. Many of them work in restaurants. But even _they_ want less visitors. Every restaurant in Kailua Kona is busy all the time. We could arbitrarily knock our numbers down by one-quarter and it wouldn't make a difference to the workers. It would be bad for the airlines, hotels, rental cars and tour companies which make most of the tourist money. But the servers and bartenders? A line out the door is a problem -- not a blessing. Ask any server if he or she would rather be busy, or "in the weeds" busy. Seriously, ask next time you go out to eat.

If the average worker saw a little bit more of the tourist dollar, they might not be so against having those numbers. That would be the least-painful solution for tourists. But it's not happening.

Finally, raising taxes is the _easiest_ way forward. It's easy for the goverment to implement/raise taxes on visitors. I think the _best_ way forward is with a wrecking ball -- knock down a bunch of hotels and timeshares and turn them into public parks. No tourist wants a "homeless vacation" -- they'll go elsewhere. That will immediately raise hotel room prices, probably higher than the one-third they knock down. But it will be great for the timeshare owners whose resorts still stand -- their condo is worth that much more. Of course, room and property taxes are going to go way up -- all those room taxes have to be replaced somehow.

As I've said earlier, no matter what Maui does, if they really limit tourism by a third, there will be disappointment. You can't tell 70,000 people every month they can't go to Maui without them being disappointed. I hope they find a solution which works.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 15, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Numbers added for clarity.
> 
> 1) I'll gladly trade taxes with Ken. I'll also gladly trade taxes with you. I'm not complaining about my taxes. But if someone else volunteers to pay them -- and I can pay 1/10 or less of what I normally pay, that'd be just great. You get to enjoy Hawaii's property tax rates -- and I'll enjoy yours. That's an offer that can stand for eternity.
> 
> ...



I think we can conclude this discussion with the following agreements:

You don't feel your taxes are too high on Hawaii Island.
Smoking is bad for everyone.
If Maui wants to reduce the number of tourists they can raise taxes on tourists like the TAT.
Oxybenzone shouldn't be in sunscreen.  The sunscreen we use doesn't have Oxybenzone.
If we can't find a sunscreen that complies with the Maui law we won't go there.


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## slip (Oct 15, 2022)

Not much new but another article on Maui Parking. 









						Maui Visitors and Residents Square Off Starting Here
					

Maui has great resorts and an improved airport with the most flights (including widebody) to Hawaii other than Honolulu. But now it has clearly become too much of a good thing. So what happens next?



					beatofhawaii.com


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## Ken555 (Oct 16, 2022)

slip said:


> Not much new but another article on Maui Parking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This includes the info that, for instance, Lahaina would have hourly paid parking. That’s very different than up to $30, assuming it’s a reasonable amount. Hourly paid parking is not an issue, and is common in most major cities. I often park in private lots in Lahaina and pay for parking already, so this makes little difference to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## slip (Oct 16, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> This includes the info that, for instance, Lahaina would have hourly paid parking. That’s very different than up to $30, assuming it’s a reasonable amount. Hourly paid parking is not an issue, and is common in most major cities. I often park in private lots in Lahaina and pay for parking already, so this makes little difference to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes, it sounds like more information will be coming.


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## sponger76 (Oct 16, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> This includes the info that, for instance, Lahaina would have hourly paid parking. That’s very different than up to $30, assuming it’s a reasonable amount. Hourly paid parking is not an issue, and is common in most major cities. I often park in private lots in Lahaina and pay for parking already, so this makes little difference to me.


The question is, what will those hourly rates be? If the goal is to lower the amount of tourists parking there, I imagine they'd make it painful.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 16, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> The question is, what will those hourly rates be? If the goal is to lower the amount of tourists parking there, I imagine they'd make it painful.



If they combined that with a shuttle to at least Kahana, if not most of the way to Kapalua, they might see a little relief. Carrot and stick -- stick 'em with parking fees and offer a free shuttle carrot. Run two shuttles in a continuous loop from 10am to an hour past sunset. Use the parking fees to pay for the shuttle.


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## Henry M. (Oct 17, 2022)

Marriott runs a shuttle to Lahaina from the timeshares. I would use it more if it ran more than once an hour to Lahaina. Other than how often it runs, it is actually fairly convenient and saves the hassle of finding a parking spot. This only addresses the parking problem, though.

The basic over tourism problem remains. I would like to see tourism reduced even as a tourist myself. I'm sure I'd be voting for some of the visitor measures if I were a resident. I just don't know of an easy way to reduce tourism without making it unaffordable for many to come. As mentioned before, anything that reduces the number of people coming in will eventually result in significantly higher prices, regardless of fees or tax changes. Reduced supply in the face of large demand will do that.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 17, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Marriott runs a shuttle to Lahaina from the timeshares. I would use it more if it ran more than once an hour to Lahaina. Other than how often it runs, it is actually fairly convenient and saves the hassle of finding a parking spot. This only addresses the parking problem, though.
> 
> The basic over tourism problem remains. I would like to see tourism reduced even as a tourist myself. I'm sure I'd be voting for some of the visitor measures if I were a resident. I just don't know of an easy way to reduce tourism without making it unaffordable for many to come. As mentioned before, anything that reduces the number of people coming in will eventually result in significantly higher prices, regardless of fees or tax changes. Reduced supply in the face of large demand will do that.



Is what you calling a shuttle from Kapalua to Lahaina the Maui Bus service?  We used it twice from Sands of Kahana and it worked out great.  $1 each way for over 55 seniors.  If more people started using it I bet they would make it run every 1/2 hour.  For a few of the rides  the bus was very full so if they make it $30 or $10/hour to park perhaps more people would start using the bus.  I say the same about the effect of free or inexpensive parking and the rail in Honolulu.  The parking is free or very inexpensive in Honolulu compared to New York.  If they want people to ride the rail, if and when it gets completed, they need to make parking in Honolulu very expensive like $50/day. 

The other thing is overcoming the "Car mentality".  Cars are the most convienient way to travel if parking is available.  We have lived on Long Island in New York for many years and were very car oriented.  Where we lived you needed a car to go anywhere but free parking was always available.  When we travelled we either went by car or rented a car when we got there.  We were very car oriented from living on Long Island which is very car oriented.  We vacationed in Miami South Beach in March 2001 without a car and found it was so freeing from having to worry about drinking and driving, parking, traffic, car pickup, car return, car expenses.  After that we gravitated to areas where we could vacation without a car:  Honolulu, San Francisco, San Diego Gas Lamp, New Orleans.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 17, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> I would like to see tourism reduced even as a tourist myself.



I have an 80-year old neighbor who tells me that Hawaii's politicians have been vowing to fix the same problems since she was a little girl. "I grew up. I moved away. I got married. I moved back. And it's still the same problems. The only thing that's changed is the politicians are younger."

I talk to her constantly because she knows everything. She even knows what issues I'm going to face with the farm, years before it happens.

I'm hopeful that Maui finds a solution. She's utterly cynical about the prospects.


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## pspercy (Oct 19, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Marriott runs a shuttle to Lahaina from the timeshares



It does?

Have to check that out next trip.


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## clifffaith (Oct 19, 2022)

We just got back from 1 hr 45 min trip to Whaler’s Village. At $4 per half hour I wouldn’t want to pay $16 to park there again unless I knew I’d be dining and getting validated for free two hour parking. I don’t recall what we may have paid in the past because we usually eat (Hula Grill) or buy cookies (Honolulu Cookie Company, no longer there and anyway I got smart and ordered online so I don’t have to lug stuff home for gifts), but even though Cliff had a cup of coffee $4), I had a smoothie ($10) and I bought an insulated lunch bag at ABC to use as a gift bag for the items I’ll give my cat sitter ($5), we didn’t spend $20 minimum anywhere to be worthy of validation. To top it off the path along the ocean stops at the Westin because of shore erosion so we didn’t get our usual walk in this morning. So $4/30 minutes is too rich for my blood!


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## Luanne (Oct 19, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> We just got back from 1 hr 45 min trip to Whaler’s Village. At $4 per half hour I wouldn’t want to pay $16 to park there again unless I knew I’d be dining and getting validated for free two hour parking. I don’t recall what we may have paid in the past because we usually eat (Hula Grill) or buy cookies (Honolulu Cookie Company, no longer there and anyway I got smart and ordered online so I don’t have to lug stuff home for gifts), but even though Cliff had a cup of coffee $4), I had a smoothie ($10) and I bought an insulated lunch bag at ABC to use as a gift bag for the items I’ll give my cat sitter ($5), we didn’t spend $20 minimum anywhere to be worthy of validation. To top it off the path along the ocean stops at the Westin because of shore erosion so we didn’t get our usual walk in this morning. So $4/30 minutes is too rich for my blood!


You got off lucky.  I read a post from a man who paid $50 to park there for a boat trip he was on.  That's where the company told him to park.  I don't think we've ever paid to park there, we always seem to spend enough to get validation.  A few of the pay parking lots on Maui are free through the end of the year, the one at the outlet shops in Lahaina and the Shops at Wailea.  However they started charging at the Ocean Center, which had always been free in the past.  

We usually get our Honolulu Cookie Company cookies at the Shops at Wailea.


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## clifffaith (Oct 19, 2022)

Luanne said:


> You got off lucky.  I read a post from a man who paid $50 to park there for a boat trip he was on.  That's where the company told him to park.  I don't think we've ever paid to park there, we always seem to spend enough to get validation.  A few of the pay parking lots on Maui are free through the end of the year, the one at the outlet shops in Lahaina and the Shops at Wailea.  However they started charging at the Ocean Center, which had always been free in the past.
> 
> We usually get our Honolulu Cookie Company cookies at the Shops at Wailea.


We’ll park at the outlet for our 37th anniversary dinner at Kimo’s tonight, and again tomorrow or Friday when we do the stroll down Front Street with lunch at Cool Cat’s.


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## Luanne (Oct 19, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> We’ll park at the outlet for our 37th anniversary dinner at Kimo’s tonight, and again tomorrow or Friday when we do the stroll down Front Street with lunch at Cool Cat’s.



Happy Anniversary!

We love Kimo's.  I went there for the first time (I think) back around 1980).  It's had it's ups and downs in quality, but the last times we've been there it's been very good.  We haven't gone for dinner in a few years, but have done our own version of Happy Hour with mai tais and hula pie, lol.  Had lunch there on our March visit. Love sitting in the downstairs bar area.


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## slip (Oct 19, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> We’ll park at the outlet for our 37th anniversary dinner at Kimo’s tonight, and again tomorrow or Friday when we do the stroll down Front Street with lunch at Cool Cat’s.



Happy Anniversary!!

We will be going to Maui in April. In all of our trips to Maui we haven't been to Kimo's but we are making a point to go there on that trip. 

We have a lot of favorites on Maui and we usually only stay a week there so that doesn't leave a lot of time for new places. Many of our trips don't even include a trip to Front Street but this will be our daughter's first trip to Maui so we will definitely hit front Street and Kimo's for this trip.


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## Luanne (Oct 19, 2022)

slip said:


> Happy Anniversary!!
> 
> We will be going to Maui in April. In all of our trips to Maui we haven't been to Kimo's but we are making a point to go there on that trip.
> 
> We have a lot of favorites on Maui and we usually only stay a week there so that doesn't leave a lot of time for new places. Many of our trips don't even include a trip to Front Street but this will be our daughter's first trip to Maui so we will definitely hit front Street and Kimo's for this trip.


I know Kimo's isn't a place that gets a lot of recommendations from those on TripAdvisor.  Not saying they don't like it, but other restaurants come up more.  But for me it's the nostalgia and the many great memories I have.  Like you we don't get up to that side of the island much since we stay in Kihei, but a stop at Kimo's if the timing is right, is always worth it to me.  Part of it is I love the atmosphere.


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## slip (Oct 19, 2022)

Luanne said:


> I know Kimo's isn't a place that gets a lot of recommendations from those on TripAdvisor.  Not saying they don't like it, but other restaurants come up more.  But for me it's the nostalgia and the many great memories I have.  Like you we don't get up to that side of the island much since we stay in Kihei, but a stop at Kimo's if the timing is right, is always worth it to me.  Part of it is I love the atmosphere.



It's  even on our list for years. I don't know why we just never went. That will end in April.


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## clifffaith (Oct 19, 2022)

Luanne said:


> I know Kimo's isn't a place that gets a lot of recommendations from those on TripAdvisor.  Not saying they don't like it, but other restaurants come up more.  But for me it's the nostalgia and the many great memories I have.  Like you we don't get up to that side of the island much since we stay in Kihei, but a stop at Kimo's if the timing is right, is always worth it to me.  Part of it is I love the atmosphere.


Kimo’s was actually our second choice. Duke’s wanted to offer me a dinner reservation in November, and lunch today was also not available when I checked five days ago. Never having had an issue in the past, I forgot them days is gone until the staffing shortage works itself out. We did haul our butts out the door before 7am yesterday to have banana-mac pancakes at the Gazebo for the first time. I have been carrying around a note for over ten years with a concierge recommendation, and finally we went and did it!


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## slip (Oct 19, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> Kimo’s was actually our second choice. Duke’s wanted to offer me a dinner reservation in November, and lunch today was also not available when I checked five days ago. Never having had an issue in the past, I forgot them days is gone until the staffing shortage works itself out. We did haul our butts out the door before 7am yesterday to have banana-mac pancakes at the Gazebo for the first time. I have been carrying around a note for over ten years with a concierge recommendation, and finally we went and did it!



We like rhe Gazebo too as long as we can get up early. We went there when we were staying In Kahana after a week in Kihei one year


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 20, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> We just got back from 1 hr 45 min trip to Whaler’s Village. At $4 per half hour I wouldn’t want to pay $16 to park there again unless I knew I’d be dining and getting validated for free two hour parking. I don’t recall what we may have paid in the past because we usually eat (Hula Grill) or buy cookies (Honolulu Cookie Company, no longer there and anyway I got smart and ordered online so I don’t have to lug stuff home for gifts), but even though Cliff had a cup of coffee $4), I had a smoothie ($10) and I bought an insulated lunch bag at ABC to use as a gift bag for the items I’ll give my cat sitter ($5), we didn’t spend $20 minimum anywhere to be worthy of validation. To top it off the path along the ocean stops at the Westin because of shore erosion so we didn’t get our usual walk in this morning. So $4/30 minutes is too rich for my blood!



Well the Maui Bus that we took from Sands of Kahana to Lahaina stop at Whaler's Village.  So for $1 for those over 55 and $2 for  those under you can go to Whaler's Village without having to worry about paying for parking, or if you want to have a few drinks, drinking and driving.


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## daviator (Oct 21, 2022)

I do find it ironic that the same county government that apparently wants to cut tourist numbers significantly, also operators a Visitor's Bureau whose mission is to bring as many tourists as possible and for the longest possible stays.  The State of Hawaii has a similar visitor's bureau with branches on each of the islands, with a similar mission.

I recognize the toll that tourism takes on the state and the environment.  I lived in Hawaii for years and I complained about tourists like everyone else.  But tourism is the economic engine of the state and I think government should think very carefully before killing, or wounding, the golden goose.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 21, 2022)

daviator said:


> I do find it ironic that the same county government that apparently wants to cut tourist numbers significantly, also operators a Visitor's Bureau whose mission is to bring as many tourists as possible and for the longest possible stays.  The State of Hawaii has a similar visitor's bureau with branches on each of the islands, with a similar mission.
> 
> I recognize the toll that tourism takes on the state and the environment.  I lived in Hawaii for years and I complained about tourists like everyone else.  But tourism is the economic engine of the state and I think government should think very carefully before killing, or wounding, the golden goose.



Wow you just said alot of what I have been thinking about.  Much of Hawaii wants to reduce the number of tourists that are coming yet they spend millions of dollars a year on the HTA Hawaii Tourism Association!  Furthermore, without tourism the Hawaii economy would be in a Great Depression!  I guess by raising prices and taxes they hope to increase or retain the income from tourism while reducing the number of tourists.  That is a tricky path the take.  I still can't figure out in the vain of raising taxes on tourists why they don't make unprepared food (supermarket type food) exempt from the GET(General Excise Tax), since all of the locals buy most of their food that way, but raise the GET enough so that the tourists, who mostly buy their food at restaurants, pay more taxes and make up the difference.  This would certainly help the low income people who live in Hawaii and perhaps help in the goal to deter tourists.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 22, 2022)

daviator said:


> I do find it ironic that the same county government that apparently wants to cut tourist numbers significantly, also operators a Visitor's Bureau whose mission is to bring as many tourists as possible and for the longest possible stays.  The State of Hawaii has a similar visitor's bureau with branches on each of the islands, with a similar mission.



Most states have similar dichotomies -- a department which runs the state lottery, and a department of health and human services which tries to stop gambling addiction.

Tourism is like narcotics -- more is not better. Just like the addict can overdose and die, too much tourism is just as bad for the economy as none at all. As tourism numbers increase, the quality of visitor will necessarily decrease. It's the same with restaurants. A line out the door is (at first) a blessing for the restaurateur. But it's a curse for everyone else who works there. Their tips are going to go down because the average customer isn't as satisfied with the experience. Everyone feels hurried. Mistakes happen. Reviews suffer. And the restaurant finally suffers the Yogi Berra syndrome: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

The easiest way to "fix" the tourism problem is to make sure most residents see a penny or two from the tourist dollar. That isn't happening. Most residents see little if any direct economic benefit. But they have to deal with the traffic and price increases. That's why they're unhappy and giving tourists the stink-eye when they visit. (To be fair, I see more tourists abusing locals than I see locals abusing tourists. Both sides have bad actors and deserve a share of the blame, though.) That isn't going to happen because it would require wholesale change of our economic system. The only way this would change is with crowds armed with pitchforks and torches marching on the county government and chamber of commerce.

The next easiest way is to jack up fees and taxes until it simply becomes too expensive for the middle class visitor. It's easy. Not fair. But easy.

And finally, they could take a wrecking ball to hotels and resorts and simply remove the ability to house so many tourists. This will also result in higher prices because demand isn't going to change.

If Maui wants to throttle visitor numbers, something is going to have to give. And it will necessarily make a trip to Maui more expensive for everyone who can visit.


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## Tamaradarann (Oct 22, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Most states have similar dichotomies -- a department which runs the state lottery, and a department of health and human services which tries to stop gambling addiction.
> 
> Tourism is like narcotics -- more is not better. Just like the addict can overdose and die, too much tourism is just as bad for the economy as none at all. As tourism numbers increase, the quality of visitor will necessarily decrease. It's the same with restaurants. A line out the door is (at first) a blessing for the restaurateur. But it's a curse for everyone else who works there. Their tips are going to go down because the average customer isn't as satisfied with the experience. Everyone feels hurried. Mistakes happen. Reviews suffer. And the restaurant finally suffers the Yogi Berra syndrome: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
> 
> ...



I believe that the cost of coming to Hawaii is already too expensive for the middle class visitor.  I consider my family middle class or upper midder class and know I wouldn't be coming to Hawaii with the high cost of Hotels, Food and Rent a Cars if it wasn't for timeshares.  Perhaps I would come for a once in a lifetime special trip, but visitors coming for a once in a lifetime special trip is not what makes the Hawaii Islands so crowded.  

In the vain of jacking up fees and taxes you haven't commented on my suggestion:

I still can't figure out in the vain of raising taxes on tourists why they don't make unprepared food (supermarket type food) exempt from the GET(General Excise Tax), since all of the locals buy most of their food that way, but raise the GET enough so that the tourists, who mostly buy their food at restaurants, pay more taxes and make up the difference. This would certainly help the low income people who live in Hawaii and perhaps help in the goal to deter tourists.  Maui should raise the GET to 10% and exempt unprepared supermarket type food.


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