# Close call at London Heathrow



## Keitht (Jan 17, 2008)

Incredibly there were no serious injuries when a BA Boeing 777 crash landed short of the runway at Heathrow earlier today.  Full story here


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## Bill4728 (Jan 17, 2008)

I heard about the crash and thought how did the pilot land short of the runway?  

The news said he lost all power and glided the plane in!!  That pilot is a HERO!!


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## TUGBrian (Jan 17, 2008)

strong work by the pilot there!


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## Bill4728 (Jan 18, 2008)

The pilot who saved the plane is name John Coward.  Funny name for such a true hero.


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## CarolF (Jan 18, 2008)

I saw this on the news last night.  One of the passengers was interviewed and said they didn't even know there was a problem at the time - thought it was just a bumpy landing.


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2008)

That seems odd - wouldn't passengers be told to follow emergency procedures for a crash landing???


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## Elli (Jan 18, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> That seems odd - wouldn't passengers be told to follow emergency procedures for a crash landing???


Denise, I heard in the news tonight that apparently it happened so quickly, there was no time to tell the passengers.


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

Why is the pilot such a hero? After an airplane loses power... it glides... No extraordinary skills required.

The question is, why did the aircraft lose power?


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## Keitht (Jan 19, 2008)

Carl D said:


> Why is the pilot such a hero? After an airplane loses power... it glides... No extraordinary skills required.



Even a glider will fall out of the sky if it isn't properly controlled!  When a conventional aircraft looses all power just a few hundred feet above the ground it takes incredible reactions to act before it's too late for everybody on board.  Maybe it's the fact that it was British pilot preventing an American aircraft falling out of the sky that some people can't cope with.  If so, don't worry - when they make a film about it I'm sure it'll be an American pilot saving a British plane.  :hysterical:


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

Keitht said:


> When a conventional aircraft looses all power just a few hundred feet above the ground it takes incredible reactions to act before it's too late for everybody on board.


Hmmm... No, no I don't think so.

(disclaimer- We don't know what exactly happened yet. If BOTH engines failed, and all auxillury hydraulics failed, this may indeed have been heroic. [disclaimer to the disclaimer- I am not familliar with B777 systems]).


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

The more I think about this, the more I think *maybe* some skill was involved.
It's really hard to comment until all the facts are known.


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 19, 2008)

2 miles out from landing is when the autothrottle (part of the autopilot system) failed. At 160 knots (192 MPH) that means that the pilot in control (the co-pilot in this case) had about 20 seconds to:

1) Disengage the autothrottle
2) Attempt to add power to the engines via the manual throttles (also failed)
3) Control the plane, adding angle to the descent to prevent speed loss below the "stall speed" at which a plane becomes a rock without lift.
4) Maintain directional control and level flight manually (without warning)
5) Decellerate safely upon "landing"

That's a lot to do in only 20 seconds when the "stuff" has just hit the fan without warning.

Hero is dramatic as everything on the news sells better when dramatized. But he certainly deserves praise for doing his job well.

...Despite being a Brit (sorry, couldn't resist Keith)

PS. As to passenger notification, he didn't have time to talk to the tower either (a higher priority). When learning to fly, the first thing they bang into your head is that the first prioirty is flying the plane, everything else is secondary. Failure to follow that order has killed MANY pilots over time.


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## Keitht (Jan 19, 2008)

johnmfaeth said:


> Hero is dramatic as everything on the news sells better when dramatized. But he certainly deserves praise for doing his job well.
> 
> ...Despite being a Brit (sorry, couldn't resist Keith)



No problem John.  Although I do find Carl's comments somewhat irritating (to say the least) my comments were intended to be, at least a little, tongue in cheek.  The implied suggestion that the pilots really didn't do anything is, in my view, insulting irrespective of nationality.


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

Keitht said:


> No problem John.  Although I do find Carl's comments somewhat irritating (to say the least) my comments were intended to be, at least a little, tongue in cheek.  The implied suggestion that the pilots really didn't do anything is, in my view, insulting irrespective of nationality.


I didn't mean to sound irratating. That certainly wasn't my intention. Absolutely nothing against Brit pilots.

I have been a proffesional pilot for 20 years. Much of what John said may be true (that's the most info I've seen about what happened), however the procedures that John has listed are essential instinctive for a seasoned pilot. Others may be a function of automation.


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

PS- I'm still very confused how you interpreted my post as somehow blaming a Brit pilot..


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Jan 19, 2008)

I saw the report on TV. The captain and crowd got  well deserved applause from the passengers. Personally, I'd like to have that person piloting ANY plane I'm on. Whew! It's scary enough if your car won't get fuel from pressing the gas pedal, being in a plane and needing to control a landing....
Liz


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## Carl D (Jan 19, 2008)

As an experienced pilot, let me set the record somewhat straight...
Of course, there may be nuances of the 777 of which I am not familiar.

In the simplist of terms--
1) Aircraft loses power on short final approach
2) Pilot keeps aircraft upright
3) Aircraft lands short of runway

Did the crew do a nice job??....... Of course they did. 
They did everything they should have... they kept the aircraft upright.
At that point in time, that's all they should do. 
Is that "heroic"?? Well, in my opinion, NO. 
Keeping the aircraft upright and landing short is what is expected to happen.


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## Keitht (Jan 20, 2008)

Carl,

One thing we do seem to agree on is that the term 'heroic' is far too widely used these days.  Everybody from a sportsman scoring in the dying seconds of a match to somebody saving life whilst risking their own are lumped together thereby devaluing the term.
How much actual control the pilots had between the time of the power failure and the plane hitting the ground I don't know.  What I do know is that your original post suggested very strongly that everything would have been fine even without any pilot intervention.  That I find very hard to believe.


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## silverfox82 (Jan 20, 2008)

Spoke with a retired pilot and he just said "no power, no fire = no fuel". It does happen.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Jan 20, 2008)

Maybe because I only fly as a passenger, it seems pretty impressive and like a really close call. If I had ever flown a plane myself, it might seem different.
Liz


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## teepeeca (Jan 21, 2008)

I am a retired military aviator---over 15000 hours of flying time.  Really wanted to "BLAST" Carl D---but figured---what's the use???

In my opinion, he "might" be a pilot with 20+ years experience, but I take exception with most of what he has said !!!

Tony


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## Carl D (Jan 21, 2008)

teepeeca said:


> I am a retired military aviator---over 15000 hours of flying time.  Really wanted to "BLAST" Carl D---but figured---what's the use???
> 
> In my opinion, he "might" be a pilot with 20+ years experience, but I take exception with most of what he has said !!!
> 
> Tony


What part of this do you disagree with?
1) Aircraft loses power on short final approach
2) Pilot keeps aircraft upright
3) Aircraft lands short of runway

Did your aircraft not glide after loss of thrust?


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## Passepartout (Jan 21, 2008)

Not to get into a pi**ing contest here, and I know that landing a 3/4 million pound B777 is a heckuva lot different than landing a 1300# Piper, but It seems that every commercial flight I've been on, I hear the engines 'spool up' in the last few seconds of flight, the nose raises a few degrees, and the pilot (hopefully) 'greases' it in smoothly. Now if the pilot advances the throttles and nothing happens, it's gonna be a rough landing. And this one was. 

I don't know that I'd call this particular First Officer a 'Hero', as he did what he, and all pilots, are trained to do, but he certainly did his job well. He flew the plane first!

Jim Ricks


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## Carl D (Jan 21, 2008)

Passepartout said:


> I don't know that I'd call this particular First Officer a 'Hero', as he did what he, and all pilots, are trained to do, but he certainly did his job well. He flew the plane first!
> 
> Jim Ricks


This part of your statement is exactly right.
That was my point from the beginning, although apparantly I didn't express myself very well.


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## TomCayman (Jan 22, 2008)

I won't comment on the speculative nature of Carl and some others posts, but you might all find the following analysis from the Sunday Times useful.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3216746.ece

(BTW, that is THE Sunday Times, ie from London... just like THE Open Golf Championship )

Also, in case you didn't see the footage, Flt38 touched down VERY close to the airport perimeter.... this was truly a near disaster.

As someone who flies in 777s a lot, I'm somewhat concerned that they find out why this flight lost power like that.....


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2008)

Pretty good article. Further more, it esentially says there isn't much to do except disconnect the autopilot, attempt to keep proper airspeed, and land.
-- In other words, fly the airplane.

The crew did exactly what they should have. In addition, there is nothing more they could have done in the alloted time.
My point is that they didn't do anything "heroic", and I stand by that.

A true masterful demonstartion of piloting skill--
Does anyone remember the Canadian 767 that ran out of fuel, and the crew glided safely into a very small airport?
http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/Technology Folder/gimli_glider.htm


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