# Sheraton Vistana Resort Special Assessment[MERGED]



## marijalas (Aug 23, 2008)

I have just returned from the Vistana Courts where they have told us we will be assessed for $1700 per week for renovations.  I didn't see anything that warranted that kind of charge. Not only that but if there is that type of cost, then perhaps Starwood has been negligent in maintaining areas of the resort and are responsible for these costs themselves.  Perhaps they are trying to force people out who cannot afford such a fee? It is has been clear from the start they they wanted to take over the Courts without offering any decent compensation for such. Perhaps we shouldn't be charged this fee but Starwood is trying to coerce us into paying for something they don't have the legal right to charge us for? I believe these are all legitimate questions that all owners at Starwood should be asking.
 I would be interested in hearing anyone else who has been assessed these charges and their views on this subject.  I will also be considering other places to gain information and resources in regards to this matter.


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2008)

(i started a new thread for your question.)


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## Robert D (Aug 23, 2008)

Starwood can't make these assessments unless the majority of the owners approve it.  Was the $1,700 per week for the 2BR's?  How much were the other size units?  I'm in Cascades and anxious to see how much ours will cost.


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## SDKath (Aug 23, 2008)

WOW!  That's a lot.  Falls is about $1250 per 2BR unit.  Katherine


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## gcole (Aug 24, 2008)

What is a courts week worth on the after market? It does look like they are trying to take it over.  This area should be rebuilt but you guys should get something for you ownership. Have they made buyout offers?


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## mariawolf (Aug 24, 2008)

That comes out to $88,400 per unit ($1700 x 52)!
How is that possible?? I find it hard to believe furnishings, carpet, appliances and even new HVAC units could cost that much.
Those kinds of figures are what give timeshares a BAD name!
Was any money set aside for replacements?? If so that is on top of this figure?
Really hard to believe it could cost that much!


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## bward (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi mariawolf,

I think you have some very valid questions. 

Is this the first and maybe only time Vistana Courts has been redone? And isn't Courts the original section of Vistana Resort?

I'm wondering if Sheraton is intending to do more with Courts (because it has to) than with the other sections. 

Please keep us informed when you are given more information on this. 

bward


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## mariawolf (Aug 24, 2008)

I am not an owner there but this caught my eye because we own at Harborside which is having phase 1 renovations and we are not having any assessment. In my mind a properly run timeshare should have this all worked in to the replacement budget--what is the replacement budget for if you also have to pay an assessment? 
As other posters have said I also thought that assessments had to be approved?  
When I say the $1700 figure it seemed high to me and when I multiplied it by the number of owners per unit (52) it is even more staggering.
We have only owned since 2001 (Harborside) and our more recent Frenchman's Cove purchase so maybe others who have owned longer can give more light on assessments.


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## timeos2 (Aug 24, 2008)

*Why special assessments? Let me count the ways*



mariawolf said:


> I am not an owner there but this caught my eye because we own at Harborside which is having phase 1 renovations and we are not having any assessment. In my mind a properly run timeshare should have this all worked in to the replacement budget--what is the replacement budget for if you also have to pay an assessment?
> As other posters have said I also thought that assessments had to be approved?
> When I say the $1700 figure it seemed high to me and when I multiplied it by the number of owners per unit (52) it is even more staggering.
> We have only owned since 2001 (Harborside) and our more recent Frenchman's Cove purchase so maybe others who have owned longer can give more light on assessments.



With a properly operated resort HOA there should be no Special Assessments except in extremely unlikely circumstances.  But many, it may be most, resorts are operated on a relative shoestring on the "future needs" side (reserves) due to a number of factors. 

- If the developer remains in charge of operations (manages) there is a very strong push to hold fees down to help sales efforts. Plus the resort may be nearly new - look great - so the obvious need for money set aside for improvements or replacements isn't there. 

- Many resorts are far more lax than they should be about collections. For every week that doesn't pay the fee for those that do go up and the reserves are that much more underfunded. It is incredible but many developer based managements tend to gloss over delinquencies  - again to help sales by not upsetting customers (even though those same customers may be willing to upgrade they often also end up defaulting with yet another hit to the resor bottom line) 

- Even when the owners take control - with or without an independent management - the reserves are an easy place to hold low thus holding down overall fees. In times of rising costs operations may need an additional $20-$30 per week so adding $20-$30 annually or more to fully fund reserves becomes a big hurdle. Until they know what the reserve needs are (a current reserve study) and fund at or above that estimate Boards are flying blind.  Not many are willing to do the sales job needed to make owners understand why in the long run that is a better way and the numbers needed are large. 

- Catch up. In some cases things are so bad that the resort is actually in debt (a no-no in any condo/timeshare world). A SA may be needed in those cases to get the Association into financial compliance with the law.  

- High taxes / management fees. Despite their shortcomings as management groups many developer based management companies charge unbelievably high fees often tied to the annual fee rate. They get paid more if fees go up!  In some cases I've seen it can get to a staggering 20% of the total resort budget just for management.  And in FL (as well as other States) taxes can be a significant portion of the annual fee bottom line. Many groups don't bother to challenge them thus leaving needlessly high income taken from owners for that portion every year.  

- Too late to do it slowly. When a resort is already 10-15 years old and in desperate need of renovation there just isn't time to wait 5 years and collect slowly from the owners. Poor planning and underfunding has led to an "emergency" SA. It really isn't but they have no choice if the work is to get done. 

Looks like Vistana owners may have been hit with many of the factors above. 

$1700 is one of the highest assessments I've ever heard of. Owners had better hope they are getting a top quality job including top end furnishings (far too many I've seen are middle of the road quality or less despite high costs) as well as physical improvements to the units themselves not just whats in them.  Many times too much money is going to design firms, contractors, overhead to management ($$$ wasted) rather than the actual work needed.  Tigh control is required and again I've seen too many developer based managements take plenty of money but do little to properly control large projects such as this will be. 

And even bigger is hearing that this won't happen again. That the Board/Management has a plan in place - meaning even more increases in annual fees in all likelihood if they haven't been collecting enough all these years - so that in 5-7 years there WILL be money to properly do the next renovation without another SA. Again too many resorts act like this time the work will last forever (it didn't before and it won't now) and they don't need to look to the future needs of the resort until far down the road. 

That may be the most important commitment of all for owners.


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## jjlovecub (Aug 24, 2008)

marijalas said:


> I have just returned from the Vistana Courts where they have told us we will be assessed for $1700 per week for renovations.  I didn't see anything that warranted that kind of charge. Not only that but if there is that type of cost, then perhaps Starwood has been negligent in maintaining areas of the resort and are responsible for these costs themselves.  Perhaps they are trying to force people out who cannot afford such a fee? It is has been clear from the start they they wanted to take over the Courts without offering any decent compensation for such. Perhaps we shouldn't be charged this fee but Starwood is trying to coerce us into paying for something they don't have the legal right to charge us for? I believe these are all legitimate questions that all owners at Starwood should be asking.
> I would be interested in hearing anyone else who has been assessed these charges and their views on this subject.  I will also be considering other places to gain information and resources in regards to this matter.



This has been discussed in a few other threads. The Courts section is a dump compared to others in the resort. It needs to be refurbished. However, I agree with you that $1700 is a lot



Robert D said:


> Starwood can't make these assessments unless the majority of the owners approve it.  Was the $1,700 per week for the 2BR's?  How much were the other size units?  I'm in Cascades and anxious to see how much ours will cost.



This is simply not true unless the HOA is violating its bylaws. This decision was made by the Courts board with no communication prior to the owners. I tried for a year PRIOR to them issuing the assessment to talk with them about it because I knew it was coming. All emails, letters, and phone calls regarding the issue went unreturned



mariawolf said:


> That comes out to $88,400 per unit ($1700 x 52)!
> How is that possible?? I find it hard to believe furnishings, carpet, appliances and even new HVAC units could cost that much.
> Those kinds of figures are what give timeshares a BAD name!
> Was any money set aside for replacements?? If so that is on top of this figure?
> Really hard to believe it could cost that much!



This is my main point - There is no way it cost that much. I have asked for figures from the Board with no reply



bward said:


> Hi mariawolf,
> 
> I think you have some very valid questions.
> 
> ...



It is the 1st time it has been redone. I saw the model and it is extensive. Granite countertops, flat screen tvs, the works - nice but I could do it for less than $80,000!


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## needhap (Aug 24, 2008)

Does anyone know when these renovations will start and when they will be completed?


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## timeos2 (Aug 24, 2008)

jjlovecub said:


> This is my main point - There is no way it cost that much. I have asked for figures from the Board with no reply
> 
> 
> 
> It is the 1st time it has been redone. I saw the model and it is extensive. Granite countertops, flat screen tvs, the works - nice but I could do it for less than $80,000!



If all they are doing is furnishing/appliances then $88,000 / unit is a total ripoff. At that price we should be talking a gutting & total rebuild of the unit interiors including plumbing, hard flooring, etc. 

Florida law requires that owners be given a complete breakdown of EXACTLY how the Special Assessment will be spent (budget). If they have not provided that they are breaking the law.


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## SDKath (Aug 24, 2008)

They are redoing all of the interior for all of SVR.  New kitchens, new granite, new furniture, Bose systems and flat screen TVs, etc.  Then, they are attacking the outside too.  The "model" units look incredible.  I think it will be worth it in the end but I cannot help but wonder how come they allowed it to get SOOOO dilapidated that it has to have a complete "gutting" in the first place.  

K


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## bward (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi SDKath,

I wonder about this too. 

The only thing I can come up with is that the original Vistana developer may have set things up in a way that there wasn't enough money to update what needed updating and now Vistana is in this position. 

Believe me, I know this lets Starwood off the hook. But to be fair, Vistana Resort has been around for a very long time, long before Starwood got involved. 

Since Starwood took  over, this resort, plus the Vistana Beach Club have been completely redone.

Going forward I hope Starwood is more attentive to these issues, and these unpleasant special assessments, as necessary as they are, will be avoided.

bward




SDKath said:


> They are redoing all of the interior for all of SVR.  New kitchens, new granite, new furniture, Bose systems and flat screen TVs, etc.  Then, they are attacking the outside too.  The "model" units look incredible.  I think it will be worth it in the end but I cannot help but wonder how come they allowed it to get SOOOO dilapidated that it has to have a complete "gutting" in the first place.
> 
> K


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## Linda74 (Aug 24, 2008)

I have not been told what our assessment fee will be but $1700 is about what I estimated.  My feeling is that many owners won't be able to pay the amount and that is why it is so high, and for those of us who do pay, it may be akin to putting money into a sinking ship.  I have hoped they would demolish the units and build taller ones and give owners some compensation for their units or even a unit and sell the newer ones.  We are in RCI points and I wonder if we pay the assessment if the Courts will be upgraded with a new higher points level....
I did write to the board and received a canned reply.  I have never heard of such a huge capital outway going forward without owners input but apparently the board has rules that suit them.....It is indeed a shame that they let the units deteriorate so badly.  We bought it resale for about $5000 in 1992.  I could gladly walk away as it has served us well and we have only visited Vistana once in all of these years but stayed in the Cascades.


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## James1975NY (Aug 25, 2008)

I would wait until you actually get the amount in writing. Being "told" that the special assessments are going to be $1700 per owner does not necessarily mean that this is what it will be...

Having said that, this phase needs a MAJOR uplift. I believe that the association has been managed relatively well over the years however, Starwood can only bill what is approved each year. $80k plus per unit may seem high, but I would hold your opinion until everyone has seen these villas as well as the information in writing. The two bedroom townhomes are quite large and they are in fact, old and outdated.

I venture to guess even after $1700.00 (if that is what it is) that the improvements will be well worth it....they are just about 30 years old.

If I am not mistaken, Disney construction workers were housed there before it was converted to timeshare?  - A LOT of history there...!!!!


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## Mjasp (Aug 26, 2008)

I think the Courts units are the largest units.  I know I own in the Palms section and that is way bigger than the Cascades.  Maybe that is why they are charging more for the Courts than other units.  

Also, if you are in Florida they have redone units you can see.


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## brz34 (Aug 26, 2008)

Does anyone have any pictures of the courts model?  Being a courts owner seeing pictures might make it easier to justify such a large special accessment.


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## GKK (Sep 6, 2008)

*Received Fees For Refurbishment Today*

We received our letter today....Villas will be $1703.40
Townhouses will be $2555.10!! This is outragous. The refurbishment cost for villas is $98,300 and for the townhouse $147,400. We own in the courts and have owned for over 20 years and have only ever been able to receive an exchage 8 through RCI  a few time, and the maintenance has went up continuously.If anyone has any ideas how to get off this bus ride please post. I just want to be done with Vistana!


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## Ken555 (Sep 6, 2008)

Yikes! That's a huge special assessment.

I predict a sudden drop in resale prices for Courts...


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## LisaRex (Sep 6, 2008)

Wow.  For $100 - 150k, I could remodel my entire house!  That is a ridiculous sum of money.


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## Mjasp (Sep 6, 2008)

GKK said:


> We received our letter today....Villas will be $1703.40
> Townhouses will be $2555.10!! This is outragous. The refurbishment cost for villas is $98,300 and for the townhouse $147,400. We own in the courts and have owned for over 20 years and have only ever been able to receive an exchage 8 through RCI  a few time, and the maintenance has went up continuously.If anyone has any ideas how to get off this bus ride please post. I just want to be done with Vistana!



WOW!  That is extremely high.  I hope the Palms are $1,200 like rumor has it.
But you never know.


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi everyone. I found this bulletin board because we received our notice that our Vistana Courts townhouse was going to cost us $2500 .  We own a fixed week. I don't know much about time share as we essentially inherited this from my in-laws.  I wasn't a big fan in the past of paying those maintenance fees each year , and then to get this notice over the weekend put me into outrage mode.  Being that I don't know much about time shares, i would like to ask those of you who do: 
1) are remodeling assessments normal on a very occasional basis?  
2) anyone know why the notice is so short and why they need the money now when the project doesn't start until 2010?  Couldn't they have spread out the payments? 
3) does anyone agree with my wife's theory that most of the Court owners are old-time and part of the fixed week scheme and that this is an attempt to get everyone to sell back to Starwood so the new owners will have to deal with the point system?
4) Anyone know if there are any other message boards out there covering this topic?

Thanks!


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## steveoh (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi guys,

As a comparison.....we just received our Cascades renovation fee schedule. Have been owners since 1989. Started in Springs then switched to Cascades when it opened.

$95,100.00 per unit
$17,700.00 per unit covered by reserves.

Which leaves $1,571.00 per 2 bedroom week(WEEK).....on top of normal maintenance / taxes.

The last FAQ that they give is "How do I sell my Villa?".......so they quite possibly might be wanting people to sell by the OUTRAGEOUS costs. That FAQ just seems way, way out of place.

....and what do you think "other/contingency" to the tune of $18,000.00 per unit week might be referencing?

I really thought that this was why the annual maintenance / tax fees were so high. To repair and replace.

Somebody(s) really screwed up......or is everything going as planned!?

steve


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## damianinpa (Sep 8, 2008)

*Vistana Palms/Spas Refurb Fees announced*

I own in the Palms which is the same for people in the Spas...same condo association.  Got my brochure today....
Cost is $1626 for each owner of 2 bedroom..billing in 3 installments.  $542 due in Jan '09, Jun '09, Jan '10.  Work will start in April '10 to be completed in Jan '11. 

To me this is too much..other sections are $1200.  Why this is $1626 is beyond me.  I was there in July and saw the sample unit...it was extrememly nice, but, for me, not $1600+ nice.  Guess we either pay or sell it.

Damian


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## damianinpa (Sep 8, 2008)

Just started new post, but, thought I would reply also.  I own in Palms..cost is $1626 for each owner.  If you own in the Spas..it is the same.  3 payments of $542 starting in Jan '09.  What is crazy is work doesn't start until April '10, so, we are 'prepaying' the work I guess.  Funny thing is..This fee is more than I paid for the unit off Ebay on resale.
Damian

_
[Sorry, but duplicate posts are not allowed on TUG.  This post was moved to this thread to keep topic in one thread.-DeniseM Moderator]_


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## Robert D (Sep 9, 2008)

*Vistana Cascades Special Assessment*

Well, the bad news was in today's mail.  It's official.  Vistana Cascades is doing a special assessment and full blown refurb.  The assessment is as follows:

1BR - $754
2BR - $1,571
2BR Lockoff - $2,042

The assessment will be due in 3 installments with the first due in Feb 2009, second in July 2009, and last in Feb 2010.  The refurb cost per unit is $95K!  I've seen a refurbed model and they are a nice as any TS I've seen anywhere.  But have to say I'm glad I only own a 1BR.  The refurb will begin in May 2009 and be completed in May 2010.


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## SDKath (Sep 9, 2008)

Didn't know they had 1BRs there.

WOW!  That is a LOT for the LO.  I am beginning to see the Falls refurb of $1200 per 2BR as cheap.   

Katherine


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## Ken555 (Sep 9, 2008)

SDKath said:


> WOW!  That is a LOT for the LO.  I am beginning to see the Falls refurb of $1200 per 2BR as cheap.



Yeah... glad that's the section I (randomly) purchased earlier this year... lots of bad news re assessments lately...


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## arcaneimaginings (Sep 9, 2008)

My assessment for a 2 bdrm unit is $1571, payable in 2 installments, I think.  I am not happy.  Multiplied by 52 weeks, that is $81,692 for updating the furnishings in a small 2 bedroom condo.  How long will the plasma tv's last?  How can they assess such a large sum without notifying us?


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## LisaRex (Sep 9, 2008)

What are the annual MFs in these units and why weren't reserves built for improvements? Was this always a Starwood TS or did they acquire it?

I pay nearly $2k in MFs for my 2 bdrm LO is Maui. I sure hope our HOA is building up a refurbishment reserve....How do we find this out?

Finally, what are the StarOptions assigned for these units.  Because it may be worthwhile to hang on to them and pay the special assessment because owners are usually invited to join SVN for free following the renovations.


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## DeniseM (Sep 9, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> What are the annual MFs in these units and why weren't reserves built for improvements? Was this always a Starwood TS or did they acquire it?



Starwood acquired them.



> I pay nearly $2k in MFs for my 2 bdrm LO is Maui. I sure hope our HOA is building up a refurbishment reserve....How do we find this out?



That info. comes with your yearly MF bill and is also available at mystarcentral.com



> Finally, what are the StarOptions assigned for these units.  Because it may be worthwhile to hang on to them and pay the special assessment because owners are usually invited to join SVN for free following the renovations.



It has been reported that only TS's bought before a certain date (2007?) are being invited into the SVN - new purchases may not qualify.


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## jemajgram (Sep 9, 2008)

*assessments*

Unfortunately we own one week in Palms and one in Springs and received the assessment letters for both weeks - 1626 each.  Since the annual fees of approximately $680 are so high anyway, we are shocked that they didn't accumulate enough funds for this refurbishing.  That was certainly the sales pitch.   I didn't see any offer of any kind for selling back the units or for any special consideration for owners.  They even told us that they had discontinued renting the "weeks" for owners.  I am surprised that there isn't a class action suite starting.  Amazing that this assessment is hitting long before the scheduled April 2010 start date for rehab.  I think it will be even more difficult to sell these weeks with this assessment.


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## Joshadelic (Sep 9, 2008)

jemajgram said:


> I think it will be even more difficult to sell these weeks with this assessment.



My guess is that a lot of people will be giving them away just to get out of paying the assesment.


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## Ken555 (Sep 9, 2008)

Lots of eBay sales starting at 0 or close to it...


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm tempted to walk away due to this assessment, too, but i hate to give Starwood the satisfaction as I bet they're hoping most of us do it.


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## DeniseM (Sep 10, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> I'm tempted to walk away due to this assessment, too, but i hate to give Starwood the satisfaction as I bet they're hoping most of us do it.




You can't walk away - they will turn you over to a collection agency and it will damage your credit.


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## Joshadelic (Sep 10, 2008)

I'd be willing to take over someone's deed in exchange for paying the special assesment.  I think that would be a pretty good deal.


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## LisaRex (Sep 10, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> I'd be willing to take over someone's deed in exchange for paying the special assesment.  I think that would be a pretty good deal.



I don't think it's so bad, either, esp since the MFs are so low.  If only I wanted to go to Orlando more often...


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 10, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> I'd be willing to take over someone's deed in exchange for paying the special assesment.  I think that would be a pretty good deal.




Of course that would be a good deal for the buyer!


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 10, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I don't think it's so bad, either, esp since the MFs are so low.  If only I wanted to go to Orlando more often...





Sorry. What are MFs?


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## Joshadelic (Sep 10, 2008)

Maybe the seller too if they didn't want to pay the assesment bad enough!  That's a lot of money...more than some of the units are pulling on EBay!!!


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## clsmit (Sep 10, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> Sorry. What are MFs?



Maintenance Fees

We have a ton of acronyms around here!


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## GKK (Sep 10, 2008)

We own in the Courts and have paid a reserve replacement fee every year since 1996. All we have heard for years in reviews etc. is what a dump the Courts are. I wonder what they have been doing with that money! Evidently not putting it into the units. I guess we will just try to give ours away to charity or someone. Probably charity won't even take them now! 
GKK


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't know a lot about timeshares. Does anyone have any estimate of what a fixed week in late September would sell for at the Courts AFTER the renovation?  What were they going for before the notice of the assessment?
I am talking about the 2 bedroom townhouses.


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## DeniseM (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> I don't know a lot about timeshares. Does anyone have any estimate of what a fixed week in late September would sell for at the Courts AFTER the renovation?  What were they going for before the notice of the assessment?
> I am talking about the 2 bedroom townhouses.



I don't think we will see much change in the price.  Florida is over built with timeshares and supply exceeds demand.


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 11, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> I don't think we will see much change in the price.  Florida is over built with timeshares and supply exceeds demand.



So what do they sell for?


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## Joshadelic (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> So what do they sell for?



On the resale market - almost nothing from what I can see...especially since the HUGE special assesment.


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## tlpnet (Sep 11, 2008)

I haven't been watching lately, but the Fountains units which were under construction, special assessments paid, and already invited into SVN were selling for a little more than the non-renovated units at the time I was watching.  By a little more, I mean around $1,000 or so.  I wouldn't expect them to jump alot in price.

-tim


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 11, 2008)

When someone on ebay is selling a time share rental, they're just selling a week's vacation to someone right? Not selling the actual timeshare.


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## Ken555 (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> When someone on ebay is selling a time share rental, they're just selling a week's vacation to someone right? Not selling the actual timeshare.



Yup. A rental is a rental, not the sale of a deed.


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 11, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> Yup. A rental is a rental, not the sale of a deed.



Where are all the so-called Vistana deeds for sale on eBay? I think I saw one. Other posters made it sound like a glut of them just went up.


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## Ken555 (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeffy3 said:


> Where are all the so-called Vistana deeds for sale on eBay? I think I saw one. Other posters made it sound like a glut of them just went up.



There are almost always 3-10 Vistana's listed on eBay, plus others from SDO. Just search eBay for "sheraton timeshare" and you'll find a lot.


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## DeniseM (Sep 11, 2008)

In the Owner Resources sticky will you find 2 links to search ebay for Starwood properties, listed under the Buying & Selling heading.

_Current_ Starwood Auctions & _completed_ Starwood auctions.


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## jjlovecub (Sep 11, 2008)

I have emailed the Board (again) and am waiting a response. I submitted it with it an estimate for my home to be refurbished with all new countertops, cabinents, new tile and appliances, and everything else under the sun. Basically a complete rework....The bill came to $57K and change. I have a 2500 sq ft 4 BDR home and some how it is $30K cheaper than each unit. And they are getting a bulk deal on supplies. Can't wait for the response. Oh wait, I probably won't get one


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 12, 2008)

jjlovecub said:


> I have emailed the Board (again) and am waiting a response. I submitted it with it an estimate for my home to be refurbished with all new countertops, cabinents, new tile and appliances, and everything else under the sun. Basically a complete rework....The bill came to $57K and change. I have a 2500 sq ft 4 BDR home and some how it is $30K cheaper than each unit. And they are getting a bulk deal on supplies. Can't wait for the response. Oh wait, I probably won't get one





Keep us posted !


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## Joshadelic (Sep 12, 2008)

jjlovecub said:


> I have emailed the Board (again) and am waiting a response. I submitted it with it an estimate for my home to be refurbished with all new countertops, cabinents, new tile and appliances, and everything else under the sun. Basically a complete rework....The bill came to $57K and change. I have a 2500 sq ft 4 BDR home and some how it is $30K cheaper than each unit. And they are getting a bulk deal on supplies. Can't wait for the response. Oh wait, I probably won't get one



I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THIS!!!


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## Ken555 (Sep 12, 2008)

jjlovecub said:


> Oh wait, I probably won't get one



While it's a significant effort, you do live in Florida. Perhaps you might convince yourself to go to the next public Board meeting at Vistana? Ask them the question during a public session - they've got to offer one... 

These fees to remodel the units are extremely high and make no sense to me, or any of us! What are they thinknig? Oh, wait... it's Florida... 50% profit must go somewhere...


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## Dave55123 (Sep 14, 2008)

*Ebay Auctions*

I've seen some for rental, but most are for clear title.  I see people trying to dump the timeshare due to limited use or special assessment IMHO.


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 16, 2008)

So who is going to sell there's and who is going to roll over and pay the assessment?


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## GKK (Sep 16, 2008)

We're going to try to donate ours! 
GKK


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 16, 2008)

GKK said:


> We're going to try to donate ours!
> GKK



I would like to sell for just the asessment fee, but something tells me even that would be asking too much!    I'm really irritated by this whole thing. I would like to know why they need the money so early, why they need it in such close-together installments, and why it's so much more than most reasonable people think it should be.

( we own a fixed week at a court townhouse )


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## CeeWoo (Sep 16, 2008)

We paid the assessment in Fountains over the last couple years and I can feel your pain.

We just got back from Vistana and stayed in a 2BR fountains unit.  It's nice but I still wonder if it's worth what they paid (or at least collected) to do the remodel.  HOWEVER, since we no longer will normally be traveling with our kids (they're now 20 yrs old).  Future trips using StarOptions will give us 2 full weeks in a 1br or about a week & 5 days in a 1BR Premium (either Vistana or the Villages).  I'm guessing the other areas will have the choice of whether or not to join SVN after they have collected the $ for the remodels there.  Now the question becomes "how much success will I have using staroptions to get to the 1br units or even moving to other resorts?"  We're considering going back next May so I just might find out soon.

Slight change of topic--we went to the sales pitch while there and when the guy assigned to us kept saying that ALL the owners had 'agreed' to the special assessments, I kept correcting him and saying that I had never agreed to any such thing.  After doing that a couple times he started saying "The board who represents all the owners".  He said if I don't agree with the board I have every opportunity to become a board member.  My reply was "sure and I could become president of the US, but that's not gonna happen either".  (You wouldn't even want to hear how the conversation turned when he talked about how reserves would pay for any future improvements)  He couldn't get us out of the sales area quick enough LOL


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## Linda74 (Sep 16, 2008)

I am very interested in donating my Vistana week, especially since my husband has been diagnosed with cancer.....does anyone have the name of an organization that would take it and do you think it could be donated without paying the assessment????


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## DeniseM (Sep 16, 2008)

Linda74 said:


> I am very interested in donating my Vistana week, especially since my husband has been diagnosed with cancer.....does anyone have the name of an organization that would take it and do you think it could be donated without paying the assessment????



Hi Linda - I am so sorry about your husband.  

Unfortunately, charities want a week with all fees paid that they can turn around quickly, so I'm not sure if that will work for you or not.  Here is more info. in case you want to look into it:  scroll all the way down to the bottom of this page.

Have you considered selling it for $1 on the TUG Bargain Basement Board with the stipulation that the new owner pays all fees?  

Let us know how it goes!


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## woosterjc (Sep 17, 2008)

*Courts Unit*

Has any court owner filed a complaint to the state of Florida for these high assessments and for us not having a say in what we want? 

Also why the Courts board not respond to us owners directly if we send mail or email to them?

We may also start a petition to stop the assessment,

James


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## GKK (Sep 17, 2008)

I agree with James...I hope something is done. As I said in an earlier post, where have they been using the replacement reserve we have been paying since 1996. We did not pay that when we bought in 1983, then in '96 it just suddenly appeared on the maintenance bill and has doubled since then. They evidently did not use it to remodel anything, because all we have heard from visitors for years, is what a dump the courts are.
    They want us to start making the first payment in Nov., since when do you pay for something 2 years before work is even started. Hopefully something can be done.
GKK


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## jjlovecub (Sep 17, 2008)

mbisson said:


> He said if I don't agree with the board I have every opportunity to become a board member.



LOL - as someone who has TRIED to get on the Board for a year now - I assure you it is not easily done.


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## CeeWoo (Sep 18, 2008)

jjlovecub said:


> I assure you it is not easily done.



Especially when existing board members can easily send proxy forms to every owner and basically get their support without saying a word as to what they want to do.  ie:  they 'almost' get to elect themselves

(btw-as per my previous post---I used options yesterday to make reservations for next May in a 1br premium with no problems at all, so there is a potential payoff in the future for the $ I paid in the Spec Assessment since they gave me free SVN membership)


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## James1975NY (Sep 18, 2008)

steveoh said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> As a comparison.....we just received our Cascades renovation fee schedule. Have been owners since 1989. Started in Springs then switched to Cascades when it opened.
> 
> ...



I suggest writing to your board of directors to get your answers. As mentioned earlier in this thread a vote must have taken place and approved. Your yearly maintenance fees cover for maintaining....not updating. Hopefully with the costs that are planned there is a lot of updating...


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## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Your yearly maintenance fees cover for maintaining....not updating.



James,

Sorry, you are incorrect. As part of most HOA maintenance fees there is a  "reserve fund" which is not for maintenance, but intended for replacing fundamental structural and cosmetic items which predictably wear out over time. In other words, a reserve fund is typically used to slowly store money for the eventual replacement of roofs, elevators, painting, etc. With timeshares, that reserve fund should naturally include internal unit updates. Whether or not there is a reserve fund at all is a good question, though I believe I read elsewhere on these forums that most (if not all) of the Orlando properties have them.

Reserve studies are performed by a third party on a regular basis (mandated by law in most States) which objectively show how well the reserve is funded and recommends appropriate changes to keep the reserve in sync with expected expenses. The Board of each HOA may elect not to adequately fund their reserve fund, with the obvious eventuality of forcing its owners to pay substantial amounts when major updates are necessary. 

I'd like to see more information on the reserve funds for the Starwood resorts. How much is in the funds (one for each resort)? If it was insufficient for the updates, then what did the reserve studies show over the last 10 years? Were those reserve studies available for all owners to review? Did the Board know years ago that large special assessments would be required? Perhaps we should get copies of the Board minutes & resolutions from the last 10 years and see what really happened there (assuming the minutes are accurate). 

There are ways for a HOA Board to artificially reduce maintenance fees - and one of the prime methods is simply not to adequately fund the reserve. 

Of course, the reserve and special assessment amounts need to be balanced by the wishes of the membership. It is apparent there there has been a disconnect between those groups, especially as many owners seemingly had no opportunity to present their views or even vote on the special asssessment. FYI, at least in California, HOAs are now required to have a secret mailed (must be postal mailed in a double envelope) ballot for Board elections and special assessments. And, I believe that special assessments must typically pass by 2/3 or so, not just 50% + 1.

Ken


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 18, 2008)

woosterjc said:


> Has any court owner filed a complaint to the state of Florida for these high assessments and for us not having a say in what we want?
> 
> Also why the Courts board not respond to us owners directly if we send mail or email to them?
> 
> ...





I'm really new to all this. Does anyone know if there is a way to get a list of all the homeowners in the courts?


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 18, 2008)

This really has me agitated.  They're assessing us with townhouses possibly 3 times than what it would normally cost to do the work, so one would assume that zero percent of this is coming from the maintenance fees we've been making all along.


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## LisaRex (Sep 19, 2008)

I'm wondering if the assessment doesn't include some sort of major exterior upgrade, such as a new pool....


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## botham (Sep 19, 2008)

Surely one of our members must be a lawyer, who can advise us all?


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## marijalas (Sep 26, 2008)

*Starwood Manipulations*

I wantred to respond even though I don't have any new information to report.  I have contacted Starwood - 1800-847-8262 US & CANADA, 0-800-89-5065  UK and been given the royal run-around.  I requested a copy of the Charter that gives the Board of Directors their rights and copies of the board meeting that voted in these charges.  The fellow said that he had mailed it out approximately 15 days ago.  Lost in the mail? Really? They know where to send my bill!  Starwood is delaying giving us information until we will be unable to take action,   The renovations do not appear to warrant those kind of charges.  These are not due to a catastophe, they are doing interior face lifts, they are not re-roofing (standard maintenance), or expanding our apartments, I don't need a granite countertop to enjoy my vacation.  Further as I read other posts regarding Starwoods manipulation of points and options and values, I see less than straight forward managment.  I plan on calling the State of Florida which has very strict regulations regarding Timeshare behavior and when I get this information will share.  I for one have been too complacent about our timeshare and believed that if they did well for themselves they would do well for owners. I casually signed the proxy, again thinking that the board, as owners would look out for all our best interests. Todays recession and the subject of greed are too apparent. After all RCI is being sued for their behavior regarding exchanges, perhaps Starwood needs to be looked into as well.


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## botham (Sep 28, 2008)

My wife and I are not at all happy with the situation, but we live in the UK and have no idea about US law. The prices seem excessive and I'd love to challenge them, but have no idea how to.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do this.


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## nodge (Sep 28, 2008)

woosterjc said:


> Has any court owner filed a complaint to the state of Florida for these high assessments and for us not having a say in what we want?
> 
> Also why the Courts board not respond to us owners directly if we send mail or email to them?
> 
> ...



Here is a link to the official complaint form for the Florida government organization responsible for ensuring timeshare owners don't get screwed by Florida-based timeshare developers, timeshare management companies, and the like.  

If anyone suspects foul play regarding these assessments, or even that they were not adequately informed, etc., this organization can't do a darned thing about it . . . . until somebody first complains to it, in writing, using this form.  I suspect the more complaints it gets, the more likely it will do something.

For everyone upset over recent developments at Vistana Resort, if you haven’t filled out and mailed this form, you have no right to complain.

-nodge


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## marijalas (Sep 28, 2008)

*Special Assessment Contacts & Info*

Hi again...I have been doing more research and want to pass this on to you all.  Firstly I contacted the State of Florida and was given the Statutes that apply to timeshares - 721.13 -14,16, 53, 55,56 . You can read them at www.leg.state.fl.us, My next step is to call state of Florida Timeshare Bureau at 1-850-488-1122. We can all do this. The statutes are pretty clear and I cannot see that Starwood can charge these fees. On the Tug website itself under generalinformation:Annual Budgets/Assessments and Reserve Funding for Timeshares located in Florida <http://www.tug2.net/advice/budget.htm> 
Letter from Florida Bureau of Timeshare. Subject - Swiss Americian Bank <http://www.tug2.net/advice/SAB.htm>
A group effort or committee might be effective to combat the stonewalling we have been getting from Starwood regarding this issue.
Any and all ideas for next steps would be great. 
I have set up an email for this purpose _ I hope I am not out of line with the TUG BBS - it is mariatimeshare@yahoo.com.  I can create a list of those who want to  start a petition or other action in this matter. Hope to hear from you...Maria


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## DeniseM (Sep 28, 2008)

Maria - what you are doing is perfectly fine - good luck to you!


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## Jeffy3 (Sep 29, 2008)

We spent a week in our court townhouse last week and was able to see the sample renovated townhouse.  A couple of other owners were there two and we were all in agreement that the cost being charged is outrageous compared to what is being done.


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## damianinpa (Oct 1, 2008)

I sent an email explaining that I feel the cost of all of this should come from the resort, not me.  Also stated their cost figures seemed extrememly high.  Here was the email I got back:

Thank you for contacting Vistana Spa Condominium Association and expressing your concerns with us. Owner feedback is something we value and take very seriously. 

The Board of Directors and your Association approved a refurbishment project to completely update the interior of the villas. Many of the changes that will take place are being planned to provide an upscale feel that you as an owner have come to expect. In the competitive world we live in, we must maintain ourselves as one of the top vacation destinations in Orlando. The Board of Directors is entrusted to ensure that each unit meets industry and brand standards. 

We have been in contact with the highest caliber designers in the hospitality industry to combine a look of comfort and relaxation with luxury and elegance in mind. Using items of the highest quality will ensure a longer period of enjoyment and satisfaction for you and your family. 

In the past we have replaced items for which Replacement Reserves were allocated. This is the first refurbishment that includes items not in the reserve plan, such as countertops, cabinets, and bathrooms. Reserve funds that are allocated for specific items will be accessed as previously established in the reserve funds. A refurbishment takes into consideration the aesthetic life of the furnishings, while the replacement reserves consider the useful life. 

The Board of Directors and your Association reviewed and analyzed all avenues available for a cost effective project. The refurbishment has been divided into 3 installments to ease the burden of the assessment.  Please contact Association Management at 1-800-847-8262 should you require payment arrangements.   Please note the Board must have the funds available to begin the construction process.  This is the reason why we are billing the owners in advance. 

Voting on this matter and most issues associated with the management and operations of the associations is solely at the discretion of the Vistana Spa Board of Directors, which is governed by the Articles of Incorporation and the Declaration of the Association.

We strongly encourage owner participation in the next upcoming annual meeting. This will be a great opportunity to bring up any other issues you may have regarding this project. 

We are very pleased and excited with the changes to come and are confident you will not be disappointed with the final end result. Once again, we appreciate the time you have taken to provide your feedback. We value you as an owner and we look forward to serving you in your future vacation plans for years to come. 

Sincerely, 

Aixa Garcia

SVO Association Management


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## timeos2 (Oct 1, 2008)

*A few comments*



damianinpa said:


> I sent an email explaining that I feel the cost of all of this should come from the resort, not me.  Also stated their cost figures seemed extrememly high.  Here was the email I got back:



You ARE the resort! Why is it some people seem to feel there is a resort / Association that has control/money and then there is "us" - the owner? You are one in the same when you own a timeshare/condo. 



damianinpa said:


> In the past we have replaced items for which Replacement Reserves were allocated. This is the first refurbishment that includes items not in the reserve plan, such as countertops, cabinets, and bathrooms. Reserve funds that are allocated for specific items will be accessed as previously established in the reserve funds. A refurbishment takes into consideration the aesthetic life of the furnishings, while the replacement reserves consider the useful life.



Now this is bull! A well designed reserve program accounts and collects for replacements as well as longer term items such as counter tops, cabinets, floor tile and other items that wouldn't be done in a 5-7 year replacement but would be required every 10-20 years. It is pure semantics to say there is a difference. Creative though. 



damianinpa said:


> The Board of Directors and your Association reviewed and analyzed all avenues available for a cost effective project. The refurbishment has been divided into 3 installments to ease the burden of the assessment.  Please contact Association Management at 1-800-847-8262 should you require payment arrangements.   Please note the Board must have the funds available to begin the construction process.  This is the reason why we are billing the owners in advance.
> 
> Voting on this matter and most issues associated with the management and operations of the associations is solely at the discretion of the Vistana Spa Board of Directors, which is governed by the Articles of Incorporation and the Declaration of the Association.
> 
> ...



I notice they give a number to call to pay but no contacts, except to attend the meeting, to query the Board/Management. Hiding I would say.  Not the way to run a resort and certainly not the way to run a super high special assessment!


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## Steve P (Oct 1, 2008)

*Refurbishment Assessment*

I own a week in the Spa section and was just notified of my $1,626 assessment.  Here is a copy of the email I sent to Vistana.  

Is anyone interested in consulting legal counsel for a possible class action suit?



I am appalled by the incredibly arrogant and ill-advised decision by the board embark on this renovation project for the following reasons:

1.	I have served on several condo boards and never did the board have unlimited authority to spend $24,000,000 without owner approval.
2.	The cost of $96,200 per unit is exorbitant.  The units are barely worth that much.
3.	The shortfall of 87% in reserves indicates a total lack of foresight and planning by the board.
4.	An assessment of $1,626 per unit is outrageous and will result in hundreds of foreclosures. 
5.	Your assessment billing procedure is unfair in that you are collecting all of the money before the work even begins.  With interest rates at an all-time low why not finance the renovations over a longer period of time?
6.	Given the current state of the economy this plan should be postponed and scaled back.

I would urge you to rethink this project as many owners are considering legal action against the board for their total disregard of the owners’ wishes and incompetent and negligent planning in providing for adequate reserve funding over the years.  

If your goal was to take back hundreds of units in foreclosure so you could resell them at a profit, you will probably succeed; but in the process you have soured me, and anyone I talk to, on the merits of time-share ownership.

:annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:


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## Jeffy3 (Oct 1, 2008)

I took a bunch of photos of the sample unit (courts townhouse) if anyone wants to see them.


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## Jeffy3 (Oct 1, 2008)

Steve P said:


> I own a week in the Spa section and was just notified of my $1,626 assessment.  Here is a copy of the email I sent to Vistana.
> 
> Is anyone interested in consulting legal counsel for a possible class action suit?
> 
> ...



Excellent letter/email!   You took the words right off my fingertips.


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## damianinpa (Oct 2, 2008)

Obvioulsy the majority of people who own in Vistana are not happy about this.  So, this leads me to question of legality.  Does the Condo Association from a legal standpoint have the right to vote for renovations and pass cost along to owners?  That is the million dollar question.  Only other option is to sell the timeshare which I really don't want to do.  I love Vistana resort and always have a great time, but, this Cost is crazy.  So, if anyone on this board is or knows a lawyer, we need to find out if they have the full right to do this and charge us for it or as owners can we challenge this.
Damian


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## timeos2 (Oct 2, 2008)

*yes, the Board has the right*



damianinpa said:


> Obvioulsy the majority of people who own in Vistana are not happy about this.  So, this leads me to question of legality.  Does the Condo Association from a legal standpoint have the right to vote for renovations and pass cost along to owners?  That is the million dollar question.  Only other option is to sell the timeshare which I really don't want to do.  I love Vistana resort and always have a great time, but, this Cost is crazy.  So, if anyone on this board is or knows a lawyer, we need to find out if they have the full right to do this and charge us for it or as owners can we challenge this.
> Damian



In fact they have a fiduciary responsibility to make required repairs and to bill the cost to the owners.  The right to vote occurs when you elect the Board members and place them in charge.  

Now they should be looking for owner input - not hiding - and trying to explain why things are needed and why the costs seem so high. While they have the right to do what they've done if its really needed they should be actively promoting that fact & selling it to the owners.  Since they aren't it raises serious questions they need to answer.


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## LisaRex (Oct 2, 2008)

I don't know.  Courts don't like one-sided agreements.  And this one seems very one-sided.  What if they wanted to install gold faucets and 1200 count Egyptian cotton sheets? What if they wanted to hire one of their relatives to do all the work at a 200% mark-up? Regardless of what the Board says, no contract gives someone unfettered rights to do whatever the hell they want to do while forcing you to foot the bill. For a contract to be valid in the United States it has to be reasonable and equitable. 

If I were you I'd create a new thread with a much simpler title "Vistana Special Assessment" or "Soliciting Sheraton Vistana Timeshare Owners" in the title so that Owners using Yahoo to search it will find their way to this thread. That way, you can use your power in numbers to put pressure on the board to at least hear from the owners before imposing this special assessment.  I'd also contact an attorney in the State of Florida specializing in contracts to ask his opinion.


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## Ken555 (Oct 2, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> In fact they have a fiduciary responsibility to make required repairs and to bill the cost to the owners.  The right to vote occurs when you elect the Board members and place them in charge.



Are you certain? Most HOA Boards I'm aware of do NOT have the right to impose a Special Assessment without a vote of the owners.


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## timeos2 (Oct 2, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> Are you certain? Most HOA Boards I'm aware of do NOT have the right to impose a Special Assessment without a vote of the owners.



Abosulutely certain that is the law in Fl. Researched by one of the top condo/timeshare lawfirms who won a tough lawsuit against our developer for our owners.


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## Ken555 (Oct 2, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Abosulutely certain that is the law in Fl. Researched by one of the top condo/timeshare lawfirms who won a tough lawsuit against our developer for our owners.



Wow, good to know. Thanks.

I suppose it's typical that Florida allow timeshare developers/HOA's extreme latitude in this area. As we've discussed on this forum in the past, Westin St John can't pass a Special Assessment as not enough owners vote. Perhaps we need a summary listing of what's allowed in each State, to assist owners in researching this topic. It may be a nice addition to this site.


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## damianinpa (Oct 5, 2008)

I called the Florida Timeshare bureau on Friday.  Unfortunately, I was on hold for quite a bit and had to hang up.  I'll try again Monday.  In the mean time, I emailed them about Vistana and this 'special assessment'.  I'll share with everyone the response if I get one.  Everyone can look at this site and either email or call them.  I think we should keep questioning this until we get a clear cut answer as to the legality of this.  Also, I emailed the condo association asking them for proof in the by-laws stating this type of fee can be passed to owners.  Nothing back from them yet. 
http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/index.html


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## timeos2 (Oct 5, 2008)

*Wasting time - redirect your efforts to make real change*



damianinpa said:


> I called the Florida Timeshare bureau on Friday.  Unfortunately, I was on hold for quite a bit and had to hang up.  I'll try again Monday.  In the mean time, I emailed them about Vistana and this 'special assessment'.  I'll share with everyone the response if I get one.  Everyone can look at this site and either email or call them.  I think we should keep questioning this until we get a clear cut answer as to the legality of this.  Also, I emailed the condo association asking them for proof in the by-laws stating this type of fee can be passed to owners.  Nothing back from them yet.
> http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/index.html



Trying to get at the Association/Board/Management by calling this "illegal" is a dead end. As I posted above the Board has an absolute right under Fl law to make this assessment. The real problem is you have an unresponsive Board to the owners. THAT you can change if you rally your owners and make the Board understand who they represent (hint - it shouldn't be the developer!).  The timeshare department isn't going to help you do that as all they will be able to tell you, if you get through to them, is the actions the Board took are perfectly legal. You should use your anger and frustration to make changes and seriously make moves to push the Board for changes. Only that type of action with plenty of other owners will actually change things for the better. It can be done but it takes real effort and plenty of time. Go for it if you really want to make your resort better.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 5, 2008)

*Not For The Faint Of Heart.*




timeos2 said:


> You should use your anger and frustration to make changes and seriously make moves to push the Board for changes. Only that type of action with plenty of other owners will actually change things for the better. It can be done but it takes real effort and plenty of time. Go for it if you really want to make your resort better.


That sounds like major serious good advice. 

Earlier in the year, when I was an (unsuccessful) candidate for the 1 vacant spot on a (non-Westin & non-Sheraton) Florida timeshare HOA-BOD, I got to wondering just how an individual owner could get anywhere with any kind of grassroots campaign based on contact with lots of other owners.  

For privacy reasons, I don't think timeshare owner lists are given out.  And although there are places on the Internet where fellow owners can post & read messages (e.g., TUG-BBS, Yahoo "Groups," etc.), those reach a low percentage of the other owners at best. 

The only idea I could come up with was labor-intensive & apt to be incomplete, assuming that attempting it is even practical in the 1st place.  

I figured it's possible to do tedious & time-consuming on-line records searches at the County Registrar's web site for Orange County FL, manually noting the names & addresses of people shown as fellow owners at the timeshare.  Of course, the task would mean doing mini-chain-of-title searches to figure out which people are current owners & which are former owners.  Plus, it's likely that many of the current owners are no longer at the home addresses shown on the deeds because they've moved during the years since buying their timeshares.  

All that effort would generate only a semi-accurate & semi-incomplete list of owners.  Reaching out to them would involve either more Internet-based research to find their telephone numbers & E-Mail addresses, or relying on the postal service to deliver snail mail to them, or both. 

It is questionable how many owners could be contacted that way, & even more questionable how many would respond at all, much less respond positively to the idea of an owner uprising at some dumb timeshare down in Florida when there are so many other & more important things to worry about closer to home.  

So I believe that the deck is stacked against us regular walking-around timeshare owners, not by evil intent or diabolical conspiracy but simply by the nature of the beast.  Add in evil intent, etc., at any timeshare where something unsavory actually is involved & it's an even steeper slog for an individual owner or even a group of like-minded owners to get reforms off the ground. 

These realizations do not add to my disappointment in getting whomped in the HOA-BOD voting, but they do compound my appreciation for those owner-minded independent timeshare HOA-BODs out there who act solely in the interests of their fellow owners, rather than with an eye mainly to the timeshare company's profit-loss statements. 

Constantly sticking up for the interests of the regular deeded timeshare week owners while keeping up productive working relations with the timeshare company _and_ complying with all the various layers of law & regulation at the state & county level is a major serious undertaking, & not for the faint of heart. 

Plus, HOA-BOD members don't get paid for their work & don't even receive much in the way of freebies, other than maybe a few extra bars of mini-size Timeshare Soap to take home, if even that. 

Timeshare owners whose resorts are under the management & control of owner-oriented independent HOA-BODs can count themselves as extremely fortunate -- all the more so if their independent HOA-BODs are made up of capable & talented & dedicated men & women seeing to it that every dollar owed is collected (so that our annual fees aren't jacked up because of other people's unpaid bills) & taking care likewise to see that every dollar spent returns value to the regular walking-around timeshare owners. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Joshadelic (Oct 7, 2008)

I think everyone is forgetting, too, that they are collecting your regular MF's while also collecting this "special assesment".  For an example, a 2br in the Cascades section would have cost $1572 (I think) for the assesment and on top of that your regular MF's are around $958.  That is $2530 per week or $131,560 per 2br unit.  Even more outrageous, huh?

Why are they charging MF's when there is nothing to M for your F.  If the units are being completely refurbished, then there is nobody occupying them - therefore they don't require any routine M...right?


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## Ken555 (Oct 7, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> Why are they charging MF's when there is nothing to M for your F.  If the units are being completely refurbished, then there is nobody occupying them - therefore they don't require any routine M...right?



The grounds still need to be maintained, as well as any other common space or equipment, staff needs to be paid, etc. Why do you think they wouldn't have these expenses during an upgrade? It's time to be reasonable here...


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## Joshadelic (Oct 7, 2008)

Maybe some of the expenses, but who is using toilet paper, paper towels, linens, soap, etc. in the units if they aren't being occupied...what about water for showers, laundry and dishes.  They don't need housekeepers to come in weekly and make the beds...it's not like the construction guys vacationing there.

My point is that it seems to me that they should have diverted some of the regular MF's to this "special" assesment.  It just amazes me that Starwood is too cowardly to actually show everyone a breakdown of where all of this money is going.  If I owned there, I would be greatly upset!


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## Ken555 (Oct 7, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> Maybe some of the expenses, but who is using toilet paper, paper towels, linens, soap, etc. in the units if they aren't being occupied...what about water for showers, laundry and dishes.  They don't need housekeepers to come in weekly and make the beds...it's not like the construction guys vacationing there.



I assume some of this is taken into account by SVN. And if there is extra, then the Board has a fiduciary duty to use the income wisely - in other words, perhaps excess would be put into a reserve fund.



> My point is that it seems to me that they should have diverted some of the regular MF's to this "special" assesment.  It just amazes me that Starwood is too cowardly to actually show everyone a breakdown of where all of this money is going.  If I owned there, I would be greatly upset!



Well, people ARE "greatly upset". Some of the MFs are undoubtedly being spent toward upgrades, at least as much as has been put into the reserve fund.


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## damianinpa (Oct 10, 2008)

I got this back from a regulation specialist...(Warning..it is long).  Does anyone make anything of this???

Thank you for your e-mail to the Department of Business and Professional Regulation.  On behalf of the department, the Customer Contact Center appreciates the opportunity to assist you.      

Timeshares in Florida are governed by the requirements of Chapter 721, Florida Statutes (F.S.), and the timeshare administrative rules.  The department's Division of Condominiums, Timeshares and Mobile Homes regulates the creation, operation, sale and marketing of Florida timeshare plans pursuant to Chapter 721, F.S., also known as the "Florida Vacation Plan and Timesharing Act."   Please be aware that the department cannot render legal advice or give opinions; however, the Customer Contact Center can guide customers to those portions of the statute relevant to their queries.  

721.15 Assessments for common expenses.--
(1)(a) Until a managing entity is created or provided pursuant to s. 721.13, the developer shall pay all common expenses. The timeshare instrument shall provide for the allocation of common expenses among all timeshare units or timeshare interests on a reasonable basis, including timeshare interests owned or not yet sold by the developer. The timeshare instrument may provide that the common expenses allocated may differ between those timeshare units that are part of the timeshare plan and those units that are not part of the timeshare plan; however, the different proportion of expenses must be based upon reasonable differences in the benefit provided to each. The timeshare instrument shall allocate common expenses to timeshare interests owned or not yet sold by the developer on the same basis that common expenses are allocated to similar or equivalent timeshare interests sold to purchasers. 

(b) Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 718 or chapter 719 to the contrary, the allocation of total common expenses for a condominium or a cooperative timeshare plan may vary on any reasonable basis, including, but not limited to, timeshare unit size, timeshare unit type, timeshare unit location, specific identification, or a combination of these factors, if the percentage interest in the common elements attributable to each timeshare condominium parcel or timeshare cooperative parcel equals the share of the total common expenses allocable to that parcel. The share of a timeshare interest in the common expenses allocable to the timeshare condominium parcel or the timeshare cooperative parcel containing such interest may vary on any reasonable basis if the timeshare interest's share of its parcel's common expense allocation is equal to that timeshare interest's share of the percentage interest in common elements attributable to such parcel. 

(2)(a) After the creation or provision of a managing entity, the managing entity shall make an annual assessment against each purchaser for the payment of common expenses, based on the projected annual budget, in the amount specified by the contract between the seller and the purchaser or in the timeshare instrument. 

(b) No owner of a timeshare interest may be excused from the payment of her or his share of the common expenses unless all owners are likewise excused from payment, except that the developer may be excused from the payment of her or his share of the common expenses which would have been assessed against her or his timeshare interests during a stated period of time during which the developer has guaranteed to each purchaser in the timeshare instrument, or by agreement between the developer and a majority of the owners of timeshare interests other than the developer, that the assessment for common expenses imposed upon the owners would not increase over a stated dollar amount. In the event of such a guarantee, the developer is obligated to pay all common expenses incurred during the guarantee period in excess of the total revenues of the timeshare plan. Notwithstanding this limitation, if a developer-controlled owners' association has maintained all insurance coverages required by s. 721.165, the common expenses incurred during the guarantee period resulting from a natural disaster or an act of God, which are not covered by insurance proceeds from the insurance maintained by the owners' association, may be assessed against all purchasers owning timeshare interests on the date of such natural disaster or act of God, and their successors and assigns, including the developer with respect to timeshare interests owned by the developer. In the event of such an assessment, all timeshare interests shall be assessed in accordance with their ownership interest as required by paragraph (1)(a). 

(c) For the purpose of calculating the obligation of a developer under a guarantee pursuant to paragraph (b), depreciation expenses related to real property shall be excluded from common expenses incurred during the guarantee period, except that for real property that is used for the production of fees, revenues, or other income, depreciation expenses shall be excluded only to the extent that they exceed the net income from the production of such fees, revenues, or other income. 

(d) A guarantee pursuant to paragraph (b) may provide that the developer may extend or increase the guarantee for one or more additional stated periods. 

(3) Delinquent assessments may bear interest at the highest rate permitted by law or at some lesser rate established by the managing entity. In addition to such interest, the managing entity may charge an administrative late fee in an amount not to exceed $25 for each delinquent assessment. Any costs of collection, including reasonable collection agency fees and reasonable attorney's fees, incurred in the collection of a delinquent assessment shall be paid by the purchaser and shall be secured by a lien in favor of the managing entity upon the timeshare interest with respect to which the delinquent assessment has been incurred; however, in the event that a managing entity turns the matter over to a collection agency, the managing entity must advise the purchaser at least 60 days prior to turning the matter over to the collection agency that the purchaser may be liable for the fees of the collection agency and that a lien may result therefrom. 

(4) Unless otherwise specified in the contract between the seller and the purchaser, any common expenses benefiting fewer than all purchasers shall be assessed only against those purchasers benefited. 

(5) Any assessments for common expenses which have not been spent for common expenses during the year for which such assessments were made shall be shown as an item on the annual budget. 

(6) Notwithstanding any contrary requirements of s. 718.112(2)(g) or s. 719.106(1)(g), for timeshare plans subject to this chapter, assessments against purchasers need not be made more frequently than annually. 

(7) A purchaser, regardless of how her or his timeshare estate or timeshare license has been acquired, including a purchaser at a judicial sale, is personally liable for all assessments for common expenses which come due while the purchaser is the owner of such interest. A successor in interest is jointly and severally liable with her or his predecessor in interest for all unpaid assessments against such predecessor up to the time of transfer of the timeshare interest to such successor without prejudice to any right a successor in interest may have to recover from her or his predecessor in interest any amounts assessed against such predecessor and paid by such successor. The predecessor in interest shall provide the managing entity with a copy of the recorded deed of conveyance if the interest is a timeshare estate or a copy of the instrument of transfer if the interest is a timeshare license, containing the name and mailing address of the successor in interest within 15 days after the date of transfer. The managing entity shall not be liable to any person for any inaccuracy in the books and records of the timeshare plan arising from the failure of the predecessor in interest to timely and correctly notify the managing entity of the name and mailing address of the successor in interest. 

(8) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (7), a first mortgagee or its successor or assignee who acquires title to a timeshare interest as a result of the foreclosure of the mortgage or by deed in lieu of foreclosure of the mortgage shall be exempt from liability for all unpaid assessments attributable to the timeshare interest or chargeable to the previous owner which came due prior to acquisition of title by the first mortgagee. 

(9)(a) Anything contained in chapter 718 or chapter 719 to the contrary notwithstanding, the managing entity of a timeshare plan shall not commingle operating funds with reserve funds; however, the managing entity may maintain operating and reserve funds within a single account for a period not to exceed 30 days after the date on which the managing entity received payment of such funds. 

(b) Anything contained in chapter 718 or chapter 719 to the contrary notwithstanding, a managing entity which serves as managing entity of more than one timeshare plan, or of more than one component site pursuant to part II, shall not commingle the common expense funds of any one timeshare plan or component site with the common expense funds of any other timeshare plan or component site. However, the managing entity may maintain common expense funds of multiple timeshare plans or multiple component sites within a single account for a period not to exceed 30 days after the date on which the managing entity received payment of such funds. 

(10) This section shall not apply to personal property timeshare plans. 

721.16 Liens for overdue assessments; liens for labor performed on, or materials furnished to, a timeshare unit.-- 

(1) The managing entity has a lien on a timeshare interest for any assessment levied against that timeshare interest from the date such assessment becomes due. The managing entity also has a lien on a timeshare interest of any purchaser for the cost of any maintenance, repairs, or replacement resulting from an act of such purchaser or purchaser's guest that results in damage to the timeshare property or facilities made available to the purchasers. 

(2) The managing entity may bring an action in its name to foreclose a lien under subsection (1) in the manner a mortgage of real property is foreclosed and may also bring an action to recover a money judgment for the unpaid assessments without waiving any claim of lien. 

(3) The lien is effective from the date of recording a claim of lien in the public records of the county or counties in which the accommodations and facilities constituting the timeshare plan are located. The claim of lien shall state the name of the timeshare plan and identify the timeshare interest for which the lien is effective, state the name of the purchaser, state the assessment amount due, and state the due dates. Notwithstanding any provision of s. 718.116(5)(a) or s. 719.108(4) to the contrary, the lien is effective until satisfied or until 5 years have expired after the date the claim of lien is recorded unless, within that time, an action to enforce the lien is commenced pursuant to subsection (2). A claim of lien for assessments may include only assessments which are due when the claim is recorded. A claim of lien shall be signed and acknowledged by an officer or agent of the managing entity. Upon full payment, the person making the payment is entitled to receive a satisfaction of the lien. 

(4) A judgment in any action or suit brought under this section shall include costs and reasonable attorney's fees for the prevailing party. 

(5) Labor performed on a timeshare unit, or materials furnished to a timeshare unit, shall not be the basis for the filing of a lien pursuant to part I of chapter 713, the Construction Lien Law, against the timeshare unit of any timeshare-period owner not expressly consenting to or requesting the labor or materials. 

(6) This section shall not apply to personal property timeshare plans. 

Again, thank you again for writing.  You may view the Florida Vacation Plan and Timesharing Act, the timeshare administrative rules, and other educational material on-line at: http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/lsc/timeshare.html.  f you have any additional questions or concerns, please contact the department's Customer Contact Center by calling (850) 488-1122.  

Sincerely,

Sarah M. Sanders
Regulatory Specialist III
Customer Contact Center
Department of Business and Professional Regulation


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## clsmit (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing in that letter says they can or cannot have a special assessment to cover refubishing units. It says that they have to charge everyone relatively the same amount (they have to have a good explanation for why some units have higher MFs than others). If this is the relevant part of the statues, it is silent on this issue. And silence means they can do whatever they want.


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## timeos2 (Oct 10, 2008)

*Why keep questioning theright to assess? It is absolute in the law.*



clsmit said:


> Nothing in that letter says they can or cannot have a special assessment to cover refubishing units. It says that they have to charge everyone relatively the same amount (they have to have a good explanation for why some units have higher MFs than others). If this is the relevant part of the statues, it is silent on this issue. And silence means they can do whatever they want.



Most of that message deals with the early days of a timeshare when the developer may be subsidizing the fees.  As you say above the absolute right for a legally constituted Board of Directors in FL to assess owners annual fees and/or Special Assessments, provided they follow the rules of notification and proper accounting, is not in question. If owners try to challenge the SA as being "illegal" they will be wasting their time and money. If there were technical problems with how the SA was noticed and approved or if the proper documentation and budget hasn't been presented to owners THEN they may have a case.  But even those are tough items to prove and will need costly legal help to do. How many owners are willing to pay up for the fight vs simply paying the fees or walking away/selling?  Not too many I'll bet.


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## gumbert 2 (Oct 15, 2008)

*vistana assessment fees*

well we own 2 wks in the Spas and we received our assessment fees last month.........$1626.00 per unit !!!!!  This is rediculous.  We would be interested in any feedback on this as to a class action or something.  From what I can see most are paying it or just selling out.   without a list of owners to contact what else can we do? gumbert2@aol.com


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2008)

*Whoa -- That Sounds Like Big Bux For Sure.*




gumbert 2 said:


> well we own 2 wks in the Spas and we received our assessment fees last month.........$1626.00 per unit !


$1*,*626 (per unit) just for the Special Assessment ? 

Or a bill of $1*,*626 per unit for the regular annual fees _and_ the Special Assessment combined ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## grgs (Oct 15, 2008)

AwayWeGo said:


> $1*,*626 (per unit) just for the Special Assessment ?
> 
> Or a bill of $1*,*626 per unit for the regular annual fees _and_ the Special Assessment combined ?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



I believe it's just for the assessment.  The Cascades is similar (approx. $1500) to be paid over 3 installments.

Glorian


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## grgs (Oct 15, 2008)

Joshadelic said:


> Maybe some of the expenses, but who is using toilet paper, paper towels, linens, soap, etc. in the units if they aren't being occupied...what about water for showers, laundry and dishes.  They don't need housekeepers to come in weekly and make the beds...it's not like the construction guys vacationing there.



While I'm not happy about the assessment, and have doubts about costs, we are getting our week use for the year.  I'm sure they'll plan the work to be in and out as quickly as possible, so I don't think any given unit will out of commission for too long.  As long as one gets their use year, I don't see how you cannot expect to pay mf.  Now, whether or not they ought to have been building a bigger reserve in the mf for this kind of work is certainly a very good question.

Glorian


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## marijalas (Oct 16, 2008)

Can you give us the name of the law firm that you used and some information about how you went about it? Thanks, Marijalas


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## marijalas (Oct 16, 2008)

*Complain to Florida Regulation Division & Petition*

There are many on this thread who have given us great information and advice.  One of the major steps is simple, comtact the Florida Department of Business & Regulation, Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares & Mobile Homes - cut & paste use the link below, supplied by Nodge:

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/lsc/documents/complaint_english.pdf

It is apparent that Starwood is not interested in speaking to its owner, nor is the Board. This refusal makes one question the legality of their actions.  We all know at this juncture that big business takes many actions that are questionable and that if they are not held accountable will proceed. 
I have spoken to a lawyer on a conversational basis and that person told me that even if we do pay the assessment, that will not prevent us from starting a class action suit.

I have set up a separate email: mariatimeshare@yahoo.com to track who wants to be involved.  If you give me your Section, Week & Unit #, we can start a list.  For your information, my husband & I are Courts, D27 week 21 & 22.


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## nodge (Oct 30, 2008)

*Westin Kierland Villa's Special Assessments capped at 20%*

Hey Gang,

I was reading  the  Westin Kierland Villas “Vacation Ownership Declaration For Scottsdale Senoran Villas Vacation Ownership Plan”  (a/k/a the CC&R’s for WKV) and stumbled onto the following paragraph:

On page 24, Section 10.9 “Limit on Special Assessments” it says . . . ..

“*The total of all Special Assessments charged to a Vacation Ownership Interest in a Fiscal Year may not exceed 20% of the Regular Assessment for that Fiscal Year*.  The limit, however, is 50% for Special Assessments to pay the costs to repair or rebuild a damaged or destroyed Vacation Unit or its Common Furnishings.  *The Board may exceed the limit if approved by the Developer, and by the vote or written consent of a Majority of the Owners Voting* (not counting Vacation Ownership Interests owned by the Developer).  No vote or written consent is required if (a) the Special Assessment for a Vacation Ownership Interest would not have exceeded the limit except for an increase in taxes or other governmental assessments (for example real property taxes) or utility expenses, or (b) if the funds are needed to pay the cost to comply with a court order or the requirements of the Condominium Documents or the Master Project Documents or the Declaration of Use Rights, (c) if the funds are necessary for an emergency situation such as repairs or maintenance necessary for personal or public safety, or (d) if the funds are necessary for repairs or maintenance that could not reasonably be foreseen by the Board in preparing its Budget.”

If any Vistana Resort owners have access to the recorded “ownership plan” for their own VR Phases, it may be worth your time to weed through it and see if a similar paragraph is present.  If so, SVO’s crony-controlled boards at VR are in big, big trouble.

Good Luck,
-nodge

If anyone wants to read the full WKV “Ownership Plan” recorded with Maricopa County (which is something you orange eating, lurking WKV board members may want peruse once in a while), click on this link, and enter document number 2002 0790610 in the “Recording No.” field. 

FYI, the “Ownership Plan” for WKV includes in section 10.6 (page 24) a requirement that “[t]he Board may not adopt a Budget that increases the Regular Assessment of any Vacation Ownership Interest by more than 20% over the Regular Assessment of the previous year unless approved by the Developer and by vote or written consent of a Majority of the Owners Voting  . . . ..”

It’s nice to know that some, albeit small, limits are in place to keep SVO in check at least at some resorts.  VR owners do a little digging through your VR recorded “Ownership Plan” documents, and you may be pleasantly surprised with what you find.  –n


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## Ken555 (Oct 31, 2008)

Very interesting and thanks for posting the link, nodge. 

FWIW, in California all HOAs (at least, non-timeshare types) cannot by law increase assessments more than 20% without a vote by the membership. This may be similar with timeshare in Arizona (and elsewhere, one hopes).


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## Ken555 (Oct 31, 2008)

This document also clarifies the nature of Kierland's "mandatory" membership in SVN (page 14):



> 6.4 Nature of Membership. Membership in the club is a condition of ownership of each and every Vacation Ownership Interest. If a Vacation Ownership Interest is owned by more than one person, they will all be members of the Club. An Owner will continue to be a member of the Club so long as he or she remains an Owner. A person's membership in the Club cannot be separated from his or her Vacation Ownership Interest. If a person is no longer an "Owner" then his or her membership in the Club will end automatically. If the Plan is no longer part of the Club, then each Owner's membership in the Club will end automatically.



And, on page 23:

"10.2 Allocation of Plan Expenses" divides expenses by:

1 bed premium = 61.6% 
1 bed = 38.4%
2 bed = 100%

And, on page 29:

"12.3 Unreserved and Unused Use Periods" basically states that the developer may use any unreserved unit that is not reserved as of 60 days before check-in day, and may dispose of that unit in any way they choose.

More interesting tidbids in this document. I encourage all of you to download and review it.


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## sxmscorpio (Oct 31, 2008)

Received the special assessment of $1626 per unit (we have 2) for the SPAS today; perfect ending to a perfect day!  Looking into giving away our units...along with more than a few Vistana owners I suspect.  I am missing something; these villas are being upgraded at exhorbitant cost; $96,200 per villa for whom? Though I'm not usually prone to believing there is a conspiracy; this stinks.


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## nodge (Nov 1, 2008)

OK gang, it appears you may need a little help with your paper chase through VR’s recorded documents:

Here is a link to access Florida’s Orange Country recorded documents.

I typed in “Vistana” in the “Grantee” field (and selected "wild card search") and it pulled up a bazillion recorded documents.  I click on the first ‘Deed” and looked at it.  It turned out to be a deed recording a “Spas” purchase by someone back in 1988.  That deed refers to a “Declaration of Condominium of Vistana Spa Condominium as recorded in Official Records Book 3677, Page 335 . . ..”

I then went back to the recorded documents link and entered “3577 in the “Book” field, and “335” in the “page” field, and behold, the secrets of Vistana Resort unfolded.  

From what I was able to read regarding the SPA’s section, there is no cap on maintenance fee increases, BUT there is also no express right set forth that allows the Board to establish a special assessment for purely cosmetic improvements.  (At least in the original SPAS declaration recorded. I didn’t check to see if that declaration has been amended, etc.)  The only mention of any right to impose special assessments in the original declaration is to rebuild the units after a disaster should insurance not be sufficient to fix everything.

It seems to me that if this language hasn’t been modified since inception, an effective argument could be made that the SPA’s board wasn’t authorized by the original declaration to implement this recent and massive “Special Assessment” for the reasons that it did.

Of course, I could be wrong, but you now have the tools to find and root through the documents more thoroughly yourselves for the answers.

Good Luck!
-nodge


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## timeos2 (Nov 1, 2008)

nodge said:


> From what I was able to read regarding the SPA’s section, there is no cap on maintenance fee increases, BUT there is also no express right set forth that allows the Board to establish a special assessment for purely cosmetic improvements.  (At least in the original SPAS declaration recorded. I didn’t check to see if that declaration has been amended, etc.)  The only mention of any right to impose special assessments in the original declaration is to rebuild the units after a disaster should insurance not be sufficient to fix everything.
> 
> It seems to me that if this language hasn’t been modified since inception, an effective argument could be made that the SPA’s board wasn’t authorized by the original declaration to implement this recent and massive “Special Assessment” for the reasons that it did.
> 
> ...



Florida timeshare laws - which supersede the documents as every Association is finding out since October 1, 2008 when the Legislature unilaterally imposed new term restrictions - allows for special assessments. No limits.  Doesn't matter what the documents say (and the Spa's don't seem to address it anyway).  The Board has the right to impose the assessment. That is a dead end argument with no legal basis.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 1, 2008)

*Do The H. O. A. - B. O. D.s Stand Pat ? Or Do They Amend To Conform ?*




timeos2 said:


> Florida timeshare laws - which supersede the documents as every Association is finding out since October 1, 2008 when the Legislature unilaterally imposed new term restrictions - allows for special assessments.


With the provisions of Florida law superseding the basic timeshare condo documents, can the various timeshare HOA-BODs just keep chugging along as before, going by their familiar established condo documents except where some specific provisions are overridden ? 

Or are the timeshare HOA-BOD's obliged to rewrite their basic condo documents so that the documents conform with state law ? 

What about condo-doc provisions requiring action by a majority of owners, rather than just a vote by the HOA-BOD ?  

It's always something, eh ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Nov 1, 2008)

*Get it in writing.It MAY actually turn out that way*



AwayWeGo said:


> With the provisions of Florida law superseding the basic timeshare condo documents, can the various timeshare HOA-BODs just keep chugging along as before, going by their familiar established condo documents except where some specific provisions are overridden ?
> 
> Or are the timeshare HOA-BOD's obliged to rewrite their basic condo documents so that the documents conform with state law ?
> 
> ...



They can live with the restrictions imposed by the State rules and ignore (by necessity) the documents OR choose to alter the documents to conform.  Sometimes  (such as the Board terms) there is an option to accept different rules if the documents are changed vs the default of the State mandates. 

Even the rules regarding the type of majority required to alter the docs - a simple 50% or a "super majority" type rule where for example a 70% total vote is required with at least 51% of the 70% voting yes for it to pass - can be overridden by the Legislature.   In fact the new term limit rule came with a specific 50% owner vote allowed for altering the documents regardless of what the resort documents may say. Even in writing things aren't always guaranteed, are they?


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## nodge (Nov 2, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Florida timeshare laws - which supersede the documents as every Association is finding out since October 1, 2008 when the Legislature unilaterally imposed new term restrictions - allows for special assessments. No limits.



I don’t claim to know anything about Florida or its laws.  All I know about Florida is that the Ft. Myers (RSW) airport has these three 15 foot giant bug wall sculptures climbing the wall in the main terminal:






I assumed that they were there as some sort of warning about the area given to us new vistors. (I digress, but I would have loved to have been a "fly on the wall" (Get it) in the meetings that led to mounting these giant bugs at the airport . . . .  "We need something to jazz up the main lobby area."  "How about something that showcases something unique to our part of the world?"  "Great Idea, but what?"  "I know . . . Bugs . . . Giant Bugs!"   "Excellent!  Order 3, because we have lots of 'em here and we should convey that notion to vistors too . . . and make 'em flying bugs, because we are an airport after all"  "Genius!  Pure Genius!")

I did a little Google searching for new Florida timeshare laws, and found this link that summarizes the changes to Florida’s timeshare laws implemented on Oct 1, 2008.

Which one of these changes gives HOB’s the right to impose massive “special assessments” for purely cosmetic reasons when the original recorded condo documents only allow special assessments to rebuild following an uninsured disaster?  Did the folks preparing this summary hide this  “special assessment” nugget?

This summary is written to suggest that the new laws PROTECT homeowners, rather than allow board’s to screw-em better.  For example, Sec 18 requires disclosure of BOD self-dealing, and Sec 19 requires 2/3 majority vote among homeowners for approval of such self-dealing transactions. 

 It would appear that SVO announced all the VR special assessments before Oct 1, 2008, even though it plans to implement some of them years from now, in order to avoid these new board disclosure obligations.  Given the amount of the assessments in light of the work being performed, could it be that SVO pre-announced them to beat these new disclosure laws?  More or less, one last gotcha before being forced to be held accountable?

Note to self.  Do not buy a timeshare in Florida.

-nodge


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## timeos2 (Nov 2, 2008)

*not new*

Those rules are  not new. They date back to at least the early 90's. But after the Vistana docs were written.


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## nodge (Nov 2, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Those rules are  not new. They date back to at least the early 90's. But after the Vistana docs were written.



So the "Pre-HB 995" columns for those sections in that state issued chart that say "no provision" is wrong too?  

Hmmmm.  Very strange laws (and notice of them) in Florida indeed. 

Where does one go to learn of these laws without having to resort to posting things here on TUG and being flamed as being wrong of course?

-nodge


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## timeos2 (Nov 2, 2008)

*The real problem is the management*



nodge said:


> So the "Pre-HB 995" columns for those sections in that state issued chart that say "no provision" is wrong too?
> 
> Hmmmm.  Very strange laws (and notice of them) in Florida indeed.
> 
> ...



Not flaming you (far from it - glad you're here to learn!).  There is just no basis to try to challenge the Board's right to impose a special assessment (assuming they followed the rules to do so) for any legitimate need at a resort/condo.  Why waste time and effort as if that was an option? Challenge the proper notice, the quorum, the budget (they have to present one or it's illegal) but don't waste effort challenging the right to impose it. 

Here is a small sample of one place it's mentioned in 718.503 (many of the 718 condo rules also apply to timeshare which has it's own set of rules under 721) 

9.  The responsibility of owners with regard to payment of regular or special assessments necessary for the operation of the property and the potential consequences of failure to pay such assessments. 

Just one minor place it shows up stating if it's imposed you owe. There is also a spot - can't put my hands on it quickly - where it states the Board is under obligation to impose fees - including special assessments - for maintenance, repair or budget shortfalls once they are known. It's not even an option.  If they don't the Board is violating it's fiduciary duties.  

I hope the owners keep after this as it is an outrageous amount that reflects a long period of time where things must have been let go.  The real problem here is common to far too many resorts. The developer has held on to management rather than turning it over to the owners and an independent management. No matter what the name  - Wyndham, Marriott, DVC, Vistana - having the developer run things means the owners come last.  Not a good way to operate.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 3, 2008)

From the summary of Florida's new laws posted by Nodge:



> Section 17
> Requires the developer to provide an architect or
> engineer’s turnover inspection report stating required
> maintenance, useful life & replacement costs of various
> common elements.



I wonder if they have filed this, and if so what it says. Might be worth looking up for someone facing thousands of dollars of special assessment.

Michael


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## nodge (Nov 3, 2008)

*Math Fun!*

Hey Gang,

This thread informed us of a recently announced special assessment at Westin St. John.  It totals $3114, payable over 3 years, for one of those fancypants 3 bedroom villas with its own private pool.   

Back here on the mainland, from reading the present thread I understand that the “special assessment” at Vistana Resort is about $1700 for some sections, payable over the next year or so for each 2 bedroom villa.  

At first glance, it appears that the WSJ folks are getting soaked even worse than you VR folks, but look what happens when we apply a little something that I like to call “math” to the mix.


Westin St. John Special Assessment (3 Bedroom Villa (2850 Square Feet))

50 weeks sold x $3114 =  $155,700.00 (Total refurbishment money collected per villa)

$155,700.00 / 2850 Square Feet =  $54.64 per square foot



Vistana Resort Special Assessment (2 Bedroom Villa (1025 Square Feet)

50 weeks sold x $1700.00 =  $85,000.00 (Total refurbishment money collected per villa)

$85,000.00 / 1025 Square Feet = $82.93 per square foot ($28/SF more expensive than at WSJ)


Now here’s the fun math part:

($28 increased cost per SF / $54.64) X 100 = VR’s refurbishment costs per square foot are 51.24% higher than WSJ’s refurbishment costs!

I guess this all makes sense, what with WSJ being on a remote island far away from building materials so that everything must be shipped in and only having a relative handful of villas to refurbish vs. say, Orlando here on the mainland, with a Home Depot just down the street and having economies of scale associated with refurbishing hundreds upon hundreds of villas .  . . . .   Sheesh.

If you look at this link again, sec 6 of Florida’s new timeshare laws impose a duty that BOD’s “are required to adhere to a good faith and reasonably prudent person standard and provides for monetary damages and criminal penalties _[That’s right baby, CRIMINAL penalties]_ for breach of this standard.”  

So what say you Florida legal naysayers, in light of this data can a claim be made against the VR’s boards for violating this new Sec. 6?

VR board members: I recommend using some of those "costs and fees" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) collected from your recent VR "special assessment" towards buying a copy of this book.

-nodge


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## bizaro86 (Nov 3, 2008)

Darn it nodge!

You know perfectly well timeshare developers have ALWAYS counted on the general public to be atrocious at math. They're entire business model depends on it. Why would you want to spoil all there fun! :hysterical: 

Michael

PS. According to my wife's observations about her incoming high school math class, that assumption seems unlikely to become less valid in the future.


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## marijalas (Nov 13, 2008)

*Proxy for Starwood Assessment and Renovation*

Is there anyone going to Vistana for the Board Meeting or the Annual Meeting? Perhaps we should give them our Proxy vote.  The lack of ability to communicate with our own Board of Directors makes it clear they do not have the owners best interests in mind. 
Part of my letter to the Florida Dept of Business and Professional Regulation Division of Florida Condominiums, Tiemshares, and Mobile Homes:
1.Excessive  and punitive renovation fees suggests poor management of funds.

2. Inability to reach anyone at Starwoods Vistana regarding these changes:

Requests by owners to access information regarding the refurbishment have gone unheeded or have received a form letter response. Owners are unable to reach anyone, except two Senior Collectors, Donald Maerz & Anna Perez, at the general 800 telephone number and an anonymous email address. The owners cannot reach their own Board of Directors in any way, yet they are asking us give them  proxy to vote for us. The information provided in the Complete Makeover for Vistana Courts and the Vistana Condominium Association Refurbishment Project Frequently Asked Questions leaflets is insufficient because it only provides an estimate of the fees, which “will vary depending on future increases to labor and the cost of goods being replaced” and it does not demonstrate how the fees were arrived at nor how the money will be used.

3. Lack of Transparency
a.	Brochures and letters extolling the changes have presented as if it the decision had been made. When we asked Mr,. Maerz for the Minutes of the Board Meeting where this was voted he replied that they hadn’t been transcribed yet.  In fact, the Meeting has not been held yet.
b.	Detail regarding future information will only be posted on site, when many timeshare owners are unable to view them until their assigned times at the timeshare.
c.	Starwoods methods in dealing with owners creates an atmosphere of distrust and serious concern that the future meeting Board of Directors Meeting on November 21 and Annual meeting on December 8  does not have the owners best interests in mind.


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## marijalas (Nov 13, 2008)

*Owners Listing*

Again, I am compiling a list of owners of all areas of Vistana for future action:
For convenience I have created an email to receive information regarding your week and unit information to mariatimeshare@yaoo.com.


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## gumbert 2 (Nov 17, 2008)

*assessment fees at vistana*

The $1626.00 assessment fees are separate from the maintenance according to Vistana Management when we called.


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## gumbert 2 (Nov 17, 2008)

I am looking into the same thing.  The media needs to be involved, they would love a story of Wall Street vs Main Street.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 17, 2008)

*Taking It To The Media.*




gumbert 2 said:


> I am looking into the same thing.  The media needs to be involved, they would love a story of Wall Street vs Main Street.


Shux, get in contact with that ABC News reporter who recently interviewed the TUG Grand Pro about timeshares. 

Getting other reporters interested will be tougher because they'll be starting from Square One.  

The ABC News reporter, by contrast, is already mostly up to speed. 

Just remember, the media does not need your permission to quote what you say. 

Also, the interview is never over. 

Good luck.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Faairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## gumbert 2 (Nov 17, 2008)

any idea who the report was?


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## marijalas (Nov 17, 2008)

It would be very helpful if you could give us the name of the top condo/timeshare law firms who won your lawsuit against your developer for its owners. Was this on a contingency basis?  It would be good to consult with someone.  My email for the Starwood Assessment Group is marijatimeshare@yahoo.com   Thanks, Maria


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 17, 2008)

gumbert 2 said:


> any idea who the report was?


Click here for the bit. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## jjlovecub (Nov 18, 2008)

marijalas said:


> Is there anyone going to Vistana for the Board Meeting or the Annual Meeting? Perhaps we should give them our Proxy vote.  The lack of ability to communicate with our own Board of Directors makes it clear they do not have the owners best interests in mind.
> Part of my letter to the Florida Dept of Business and Professional Regulation Division of Florida Condominiums, Tiemshares, and Mobile Homes:
> 1.Excessive  and punitive renovation fees suggests poor management of funds.
> 
> ...



Agreed. The ballot for the Board or lack of just proves this point further.


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## Jeffy3 (Nov 18, 2008)

Maria, I believe there's a typo in your email address.  Did you mean yahoo.com?


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## gumbert 2 (Nov 18, 2008)

know what you mean damianinpa!  Nothing warrants what they want us to pay.  said it would cost $96,500 per unit to redo.  complete garbage.  we own in the spas and was told our payments would start in Nov of this year but have not received an actual bill yet .  we need to all get on board and compile a list and fight this.  Oh , we will have to pay this year or lose our units but hopefully get it back with interest if we all can fight this and win.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 18, 2008)

As I am reading this thread, I am wondering what assessments are planned for SBP.........Drat!


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## Linda74 (Nov 18, 2008)

I am just wondering if they will go through with all of this now that the economy is so bad.  My son works in finance in a very crucial area for RBS and he says we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.  I am very sure that few owners are going to fork over that kind of money.  I know that I will make them wait for it.  It is money into a sinking ship as far as I am concerned....and for all of the need for fiscal responsibility this is not the time to do this.


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## nodge (Nov 20, 2008)

Shhhhh.  Don't look now, but RCI is offering this deal over Thanksgiving week at VR for well less than the $1600 special assessment fee and $800+ maintenance fee owners are charged to essentially gain access to that same prime week.

Well at least someone is getting a deal at VR.

-nodge


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## ericmain (Dec 17, 2008)

I just sent this to sparenovation@starwoodvo.com and I will let you know the response I receive:

Vistana Spa Board of Directors,


We own two weeks in the Spa section of Vistana Resort.  The breakdown of the cost per villa in the "Your Vistana Spa Makeover" mailing that you sent us is inadequate.  I want a complete and detailed accounting of how the refurbishment money is going to be spent.  Please send it to me immediately at:

Eric Main
***private***
***********

If the file is small enough, you may respond to this email with the information attached.

I have spent seventeen years as a real estate appraiser, broker, investor and landlord, in addition to serving on the board of several organizations.  The total cost of the refurbishment fee per unit is excessive.  The only way you could spend that much money on the improvements you have described and showed in photographs is through waste or outright fraud.

I understand that the units need to be renovated, but do you not realize that there is a worldwide recession right now?  As a matter of fact, the front-page headline in my local newspaper last week read "Real Estate Depression".  The middle class owners of timeshares are suffering financially right now.  Many of them have slashed expenses and are still having trouble paying their bills.  I am sure Vistana was going to have a good number of owners who could not pay their regular maintenance fees this year.  Do you really think this is the time to hit them with huge assessments for an obscenely expensive makeover?  What difference does it make how wonderful it might be if a big percentage of the owners default?   Or is that the real reason for making it so expensive and forcing owners to prepay?  SVO gets back a bunch of unit weeks and gets to sell them all over again at retail price.

The federal reserve cut it's key lending rate to a record low of between zero and 0.25% (and indicated that it would stay there for a long time) prompting banks to lower their prime rates to 3.25%.  Suppliers in the real estate building industry, along with construction companies, are in dire straits right now due to the real estate bust.  SVO and affiliated companies have a tremendous amount of leverage due to their size.  SVO's forcing owners at Vistana Resort to prepay for an overpriced renovation is going to cause a lot of defaults.

Add everything in the previous paragraph together and what is the logical conclusion?

1.  Use your size and the real estate collapse to negotiate hard with suppliers and construction companies to reduce the cost of renovations by half.

2.  Start renovations now by borrowing at record low rates.  You can finish the renovations before they were even scheduled to start in the old plan.

3.  This will allow you to spread the cost of renovations out over several years instead of demanding it up front within one year.

4.  This will cause fewer defaults and result in happy owners and good publicity instead of the headache you are creating for yourself now.  If you don't believe you are creating a public relations nightmare, watch the news and search the internet.  Keep in mind, it is only going to get worse.


I look forward to a quick reply.

Sincerely,
Eric Main


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## ericmain (Dec 17, 2008)

Here is the response I received. I thought them getting my name wrong and then threatening me were nice touches. The numbers they attached were the exact same numbers that I said were inadequate in the original email. The fees include $15,500 "Demolition/Renovation" and $16,500 "Other/Contingency". So, fully 1/3 of the $96,200 renovation fee is included in these slush fund categories and there is little other detail. I have to assume these categories are for the money that the Vistana Spa board members and Sheraton are going to pocket. Alternately, they could be planning on giving the contracts to certain companies that will steer the excess money back to them later. Their threat to foreclose on me if I don't pay the fees may show their real intentions here: regain control of a large portion of the unit weeks on the cheap, then resell them at full retail price.
Here is their email response:

Dear Erin Main, 



Thank you for contacting Vistana Spa Condominium Association and expressing your concerns with us. Owner feedback is something we value and take very seriously. 



The Board of Directors and Vistana Spa Condominium Association approved a refurbishment project to completely freshen the interior of the villas. Many of the changes that will take place are being planned to provide an upscale feel that you as an owner have come to expect. The design and the décor chosen will maximize living space while providing a more welcoming look. In this competitive market, we must maintain ourselves as one of the top vacation destinations in Orlando. This project will also be a great means of regaining the RCI Gold Crown rating we once had. A completely renovated villa will provide greater satisfaction and fulfillment to our guests and owners while improving the quality of your stay with us.



The Board of Directors is entrusted to ensure that each unit is maintained to offer World Class accommodations to all of our owners. In the past we have relied on the Replacement Reserves to replace items within the units. These fees were billed out over years and budgeted based on “useful life” assigned to each item within the unit. Items such as countertops, cabinets, and bathrooms were not included in the original replacement reserves. This is the first refurbishment for Vistana Spa that will utilize items not in the replacement reserves plan; however these will be included in the reserve plan going forward. A refurbishment takes into consideration the aesthetic life of the furnishings, while the replacement reserves consider the useful life. 



The Board of Directors and your Association reviewed and analyzed all avenues available for a cost effective project. Using items of the highest quality will ensure a longer period of enjoyment and satisfaction for you and your family. Unfortunately the Board cannot control certain aspects of the construction process such as cost of labor, fuel, and materials. The refurbishment has been divided into 3 installments to allow owners more time to pay over a period of time; however should you require alternate arrangements please contact Association Management at 1-800-847-8262. Unfortunately failure to pay the fees may result in further collection action. Interest will be assessed based on the unpaid balance. In addition, a lien may be placed on your week which constitutes an encumbrance against title, which can be foreclosed upon.



Voting on this matter and most issues associated with the management and operations of the associations is solely at the discretion of the Vistana Spa Board of Directors, which is governed by the Articles of Incorporation and the Declaration of the Association.



This project will not only provide you with a completely renovated villa but will increase your comfort level and enjoyment at your resort. We are very pleased and excited with the changes to come. Once again, we appreciate the time you have taken to provide your feedback. We value you as an owner and we look forward to serving you in your future vacation plans for years to come. 



Sincerely, 



Aixa Garcia
SVO Association Management


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## ericmain (Dec 18, 2008)

Look at these two articles written just six months apart.  If Sheraton can make such a huge blunder in reading the market, do you really trust them to responsibly hold your money for two to three years?

Friday, April 11, 2008
Starwood Hotels and Timeshare Resorts Plan Aggressive Growth
Author: Jason Tremblay 


Earlier this week, I wrote in the Timeshare Owners Blog about a predicted future escalation in global tourism leading to a shortage of hotel and timeshare resorts. Starwood Hotels and Timeshare resorts is just one of several hoteliers and developers that seem to think such predictions are solid.

In a multi-year strategy to revitalize the brand name of Sheraton Hotels & Resorts, Starwood begins this week on an aggressive expansion plan calling for 54 hotels and 20,000 guest rooms to be added to the Sheraton brand by this time next year. According to Starwood Hotels & Resorts Inc, the company will be spending approximately $2 billion just on North American properties. The plans include $1.3 billion in renovations and $400 million in key brand initiatives and upgrades at 100 US hotels.

Starwood’s official news release says that Sheraton is already the company’s largest and most global brand, and that they plan to increase this by opening one hotel every 12 days during 2008. Target markets include Denver, Minneapolis, Dallas, Phoenix, and Washington, DC. Globally, expansion plans include Egypt, China, Ireland, and Argentina.

Hoyt Harper II, senior vice president for Sheraton Hotels and Timeshare Resorts says, “Over the next several years, Sheraton’s footprint will become even more prominent, and as we grow, we will leverage Starwoods’ proven history of building great lifestyle brands to enhance the entire guest experience.”

>>>Here's the next article:

Wednesday, October 29, 2008
Starwood Timeshares Reports Third Quarter Drop
Author: Jason Tremblay 


Starwood Hotels and Timeshare Resorts reported a 12 percent drop in profits for the third quarter, 2008. With this announcement, they joined the ranks of other hoteliers and timeshare developers, including Marriott, Hilton, and Westgate timeshare, who have all acknowledged that they are sharply feeling the credit crunch and the economic downturn.

Starwood (the parent company of Westin timeshare resorts and Sheraton timeshare resorts) reported revenue was flat at $1.5 billion, with international operations shoring up those in North America. Earnings for Starwood were $113 million or 62 cents a share, which is down from $129 million or 61 cents a share, in the third quarter 2007. Figuring all adjustments, and earnings from continuing operations, earnings should have been 71 cents per share.

According to Hotels Magazine, Starwood Chief Executive Frits van Paasschen stated that the company had begun streamlining and reducing costs earlier in the year. Yet, Starwood’s efforts don’t seem to be sufficient to quell concerns. Steve Kent of Goldman Sachs commented on Starwood specifically and the timeshare and hotel industry in general, saying, “… the industry will be hit with increasing supply at the same time demand is falling and [its] negative operating leverage and inability to cut costs quickly suggests margins are going to be under pressure for some time.”

Starwood Says Decline in Hawaii Timeshare and Florida Timeshare Sales is Major Contributor
Pacific Business News reported that Starwood specifically blames a decline in Hawaii timeshares sales and Florida timeshares sales for its revenue shortfall. Compared to 2007, revenue in timeshare sales is down 27.4 percent. Contract sales of vacation ownership intervals decreased almost 30 percent at Starwood timeshares, due both to overall decline and to Starwood’s sellout of Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort North on Maui.

Starwood timeshare says it expects operating income from its timeshare business to drop as much as $115 million this year as demand for Hawaii timeshares and Orlando timeshares decreases.


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## malyons (Dec 18, 2008)

as an owner in the Fountains it is probably too late for me to ask these questions so I will pose them to those staying interested in this thread.  I was lucky enough to make my first TS purch on the cheap (through ebay, having never been to vistana)... but then subsequently got hit with the renovation before having not yet even visited the resort.  My invitation to join SVN and my total net investmetn including the renovation make me feel to this day like I got a steal, so I'm not here to complain about my situation, but.....the accountant/auditor in me can't help but wonder:

I understand that the board controls these decisions, and at the same time they make it impossible for an average owner to actually have a fair shot at running for the BOD and having some input, but is there any accountability for them at all?  Will we see a summary at the end of the project that says "we budgeted $90k per unit, and actually spent XX"  So in theory if they didn't use up the "slush fund" (unlikely, i know, but hear me out) will it then be placed into the replacement reserve to give it a solid post-renovation opening balance and help protect owners from significant increases in their annual replacement reserve charges going forward?

If someone could just tell us that was the case I think it would be a little easier to stomach what appears to be a rediculous sum of money to renovate each unit.  I can speak for the fountains section when I say that the units are absolutely gorgeous, but $90K + per unit?  that's a joke

Don't want to instigate anything more here, but I think it's a fair expectation to have some accountability once the project is complete and show us where the money went.  Maybe there is a plan to do this and I'm just not aware, I can say for sure that I have seen nothing of this nature regarding the completed fountains project.


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## clsmit (Dec 18, 2008)

ericmain said:


> This project will also be a great means of regaining the RCI Gold Crown rating we once had.



Why, if Starwood has an II relationship, would we care about an RCI rating????



ericmain said:


> Aixa Garcia
> SVO Association Management



Aixa is a great customer service rep (Are you listening SVO people??) -- she helped me when WLR wasn't done on time and we had to reschedule our week. But I highly doubt she's the person who authored the email.


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 18, 2008)

*Dual Affiliation.*




clsmit said:


> Why, if Starwood has an II relationship, would we care about an RCI rating?


Some timeshares are affiliated with I-I & RCI both at the same time. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Dec 18, 2008)

*The law is on your side*



malyons said:


> as an owner in the Fountains it is probably too late for me to ask these questions so I will pose them to those staying interested in this thread.  I was lucky enough to make my first TS purch on the cheap (through ebay, having never been to vistana)... but then subsequently got hit with the renovation before having not yet even visited the resort.  My invitation to join SVN and my total net investmetn including the renovation make me feel to this day like I got a steal, so I'm not here to complain about my situation, but.....the accountant/auditor in me can't help but wonder:
> 
> I understand that the board controls these decisions, and at the same time they make it impossible for an average owner to actually have a fair shot at running for the BOD and having some input, but is there any accountability for them at all?  Will we see a summary at the end of the project that says "we budgeted $90k per unit, and actually spent XX"  So in theory if they didn't use up the "slush fund" (unlikely, i know, but hear me out) will it then be placed into the replacement reserve to give it a solid post-renovation opening balance and help protect owners from significant increases in their annual replacement reserve charges going forward?
> 
> ...



Florida law requires that a full accounting of expenditures be given for ANY special assessment.  It also requires a detailed budget and purpose be supplied for the assessment (has that part occurred?).  They are required to make those available to all owners. You should watch and be sure that rule is followed by the Association.


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## DeniseM (Dec 18, 2008)

In Owner Resources there is a link to place a formal complaint against Florida based TS companies.


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## em007a (Dec 18, 2008)

*Cascades owner*

We just returned from a week stay at Vistana Cascades. We were paid the $75.00 to attend the owners breakfast where I let the salesman know what I thought of the special assessment. Considering I have only been an owner at the Cascades for two years, I was a little unhappy at getting stuck with this bill.

The spiel was to up-sell me to the villages for an additional $10,000 and drop 5% off the interest rate. That would get me out of my maintenance fees due in January and the entire special assessment. They would throw in 100,000 star points. (I would not be able to use my week for 2009). They would hold the deal for 12 months if we paid them $1,495.00 in escrow (monthly instalments, no interest) and refund the entire $1,495.00 if we took the deal. If we declined, they would turn it into starpoints.

At this point we plan to file a complaint with the BBB in Florida and then will follow up with the link posted earlier to file a complaint. If there is any type of class action suit, we are definitely on board. As far as we are concerned, the board members who voted in favor of this are somehow connected to the developer and have their own agenda.

The salesman tried to distance himself from having anything to do with the special assessment (which is true) and kept saying how "we" voted in the board members who voted on our behalf. _(Yeah right)_


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## ericmain (Dec 25, 2008)

I just found this information, but I don't know if it is current. I figure it won't hurt to mail copies of my concerns to all of these addresses:

Vistana Spa Condominium Association, Inc. 
Mailing Address:
PO Box 22197 
Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830 
Orange County 

Vice President
Director
Robert C. Rosenberg
10 Vista Ln
Melville, NY 11747 
Suffolk County 

President
Director 
Herald Hughes
2200 Elm Ave 
Laurinburg, NC 28352 
Scotland County 

Stanley Chamberlin 
Treasurer
Director 
8915 Shore Rd 
Brooklyn, NY 11209 
Kings County 

Nancy Nish 
Secretary
Director 
130 Arbor Cir 
Council Bluffs, IA 51503 
Pottawattamie County 

J. Richard Boyes 
Vice President
Director 
65 Falling Brook Rd 
Fairport, NY 14450 
Monroe County 

Grace B. Ghezzi 
Treasurer 
600 Bronson Rd 
Syracuse, NY 13219 
Onondaga County 

Registered Agent
C T Corporation System 
1200 S Pine Island Rd 
Plantation, FL 33324


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## clsmit (Dec 26, 2008)

*Not SVO Employees*

These look mostly to be real people -- I think they'd at least read your well-constructed letters.



ericmain said:


> I just found this information, but I don't know if it is current. I figure it won't hurt to mail copies of my concerns to all of these addresses:
> 
> Vistana Spa Condominium Association, Inc.
> Mailing Address:
> ...


The former NYC Housing director and now consultant on public housing?



ericmain said:


> President
> Director
> Herald Hughes
> 2200 Elm Ave
> ...


Dentist



ericmain said:


> Stanley Chamberlin
> Treasurer
> Director
> 8915 Shore Rd
> ...


Some kind of business person. May also own a consulting firm in Vero Beach, FL



ericmain said:


> Nancy Nish
> Secretary
> Director
> 130 Arbor Cir
> ...


May be a college career placement counselor



ericmain said:


> J. Richard Boyes
> Vice President
> Director
> 65 Falling Brook Rd
> ...


Might be school superintendent



ericmain said:


> Grace B. Ghezzi
> Treasurer
> 600 Bronson Rd
> Syracuse, NY 13219
> Onondaga County


Financial Planner



ericmain said:


> Registered Agent
> C T Corporation System
> 1200 S Pine Island Rd
> Plantation, FL 33324


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## gumbert 2 (Dec 27, 2008)

well apparently Starwood could care less about the recession because we got our assessment bill as planned, only difference is that the first installment of $542.00 is due in Jan 09 instead of Nov 08.  Now this on top of our maintenance fees  are due on both weeks by March .  We had a timeshare salesman call the other day and he said there is no way we could get more than $7500 for the weeks that we paid $26,000 for 2 yrs ago.  he said Vistana just doesn't have the clout it used to.  Surprising?  yeah right!


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## gumbert 2 (Dec 27, 2008)

I sent a complaint to the Fla Condiminium Board and they sent it to the renovator for Vistana, Mr. Billups.  He is supposed to be sending a complete bid sheet on the cost for each unit but so far he told Mr. Kassoo at the board the final decision hadn't been made.  Mr. Kassoo said they could bill us until it was so I faxed him a copy of our maintenance and assessment bills and the budget that was on the back and told him he shouldn't take Mr. Billups at his word bc apparently he isn't being honest with him.  That was a couple of weeks ago and I heard anything else yet from Mr. Kassoo due to the holidays.


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## gumbert 2 (Dec 27, 2008)

what I meant to type was they COULDN'T bill us until it was finalized , seems like the Fla board is getting the same runaround that the owners are.


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## marijalas (Jan 3, 2009)

*Legalities*

I received a call from the Florida Bureau of Compliance, a Mr. Kassoo, Investigator. Essentially he told me that Starwood is in compliance with Florida law and timeshare. We are in the same situation as are people who own condo's. He also gave the contact information for Orange County Bar Association re  timeshare lawyers--1-800-342-1102 or 1-407-422-4537. Whether anything can be done via this route is questionable since Starwood is in compliance. Of course one needs to know if this would be on a contingency basis. A class action suit can be done at any time, even if we pay (and we must) the assessment fees. Certainly changes need to be made in the structure, but again, at what cost to owners who are already saddled with assessment fees. 
I have also checked into other areas that need to be questioned: 
1.The year 2020 vote to maintain as a timeshare or as a fixed vacation time (for those others who have not gone into the Starwood points system) . Starwood cannot change our fixed weeks, we own them. 
2. If people opt out from paying the assessment fees and walk away or "give it back" how the costs will be absorbed by those owners who remain. 
3. I did not realize and had assumed that the Board of Directors were also owners, that may not be the case, since the ine "book" it states that they do not have to be. 
4. For those who will be brought into the Starwood system, what are the charges for the conversion?
At my request, Starwood has sent me information on Vistana Condominium Association "Book", refurbishment documaentation, Board Meetings minutes for 06,07,08 and other documentation. I have read through it to the best of my ability and right now see no alternatives to a) paying or b) not paying and losing the timeshare.


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## timeos2 (Jan 3, 2009)

*If they are within the law and the rules you pay*



marijalas said:


> At my request, Starwood has sent me information on Vistana Condominium Association "Book", refurbishment documaentation, Board Meetings minutes for 06,07,08 and other documentation. I have read through it to the best of my ability and right now see no alternatives to a) paying or b) not paying and losing the timeshare.



No surprise at your conclusion. It was highly unlikely a professional, experienced group like Starwood would not follow the rules to the letter.  While owners can always choose to go head to head with a legal challenge anyway the cost/benefit just isn't going to be there especially since the chance of losing any challenge is very high.


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## Morrisons41 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Vistana [Courts] Starwood Vacations at Lake Buena Florida*

The Courts
I would like to ask anyone who owns at The Courts Vistana Resort what their opinion is on being asked for a large refurbishment fee for each week owned.  After all we pay maintenance but this year they are trying to get us to pay for a refurbishment also.  We thought that the maintenance should cover this.


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## Captron (Jan 16, 2009)

FYI: The courts section is the oldest section of the resort. Those units and the tennis courts/main clubhouse and boring rectangular pool is a tennis camp originally on the property that went bankrupt and was subsequently bought by Vistana to start the whole resort.

Your history lesson for today.


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## Sauna lover (Jan 17, 2009)

We have owned a townhouse week in the Courts since 1982.  We paid around $7,000.  In all these years we were never late with a maintenance fee.  We assumed that the fee took care of all future refurbishment needs.  The fee is now almost $900.  What a shock it was to receive our notice of a $2,600 refurbishment assessment.  When we bought the timeshare, the Vistana developer was up front about the fact that they were making a lot of money, that we should not consider it a real estate investment, and that we were really purchasing a guaranteed affordable vacation week at the Courts or anywhere in the world through RCI.  After a few years using our week at the Courts, we began RCI exchanges.  RCI was a big disappointment.  Nothing we wanted was ever available.  Occasionally, something good would become available at the last minute for an extra fee.  We have decided not to pay our maintenace fee due in a couple of weeks.  We will also not pay  any of the refurbishment assessment.  The $7,000 we paid originally comes to about $250/year.  We'll leave at that.  We are now in our late 70s and on a fixed income.  They can have our week!


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2009)

Sauna lover, I certainly understand your disappointment.  And I don't blame you.  I'm sure Vistana is in for a big surprise in the near future because I'm sure you're not the only one who plans to simply walk away rather than pay this ridiculously overpriced SA.  However, I'm not sure of the repercussions of just walking away.  I'd hate for your credit rating to take a hit (though I hope at your age you don't need credit.) or for you to be harrassed by bill collectors. 

Besides, I believe that the HOAs, not Starwood, will have to absorb the cost of non-payers, so it's the remaining Owners who will get hurt.  Starwood won't feel any pain. 

Perhaps, instead of walking away, you can offer it up for free to anyone who's willing to pay for the transfer and take on the special assessment and MFs.   Or, alternately, perhaps you can book somewhere else in the Starwood network (Westin St. John or Hawaii) using your StarOptions and then offering it up for rent for $2600. ($2600 for a week in Hawaii isn't a bad deal.)

In any event, no matter what you do, I just want to say good luck to you.  I feel badly for all owners who are put in this predicament.


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## Sauna lover (Jan 17, 2009)

It seems to me that Vistana would be happy to get our week for nothing.  They can just turn around and sell it like they first sold it to us, for a big price.
They can use some of their new profit to offset the $2,600 SA they don't get from us.
At this point, we will be willing to risk damage to our credit rating.  What more can they do to us and all the others like us?
We certainly don't want to hurt other owners, but it seems to me that they are co-victims with us, with Vistana as the perpetrator.


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## DeniseM (Jan 17, 2009)

Sauna lover said:


> It seems to me that Vistana would be happy to get our week for nothing.  They can just turn around and sell it like they first sold it to us, for a big price.
> They can use some of their new profit to offset the $2,600 SA they don't get from us.
> At this point, we will be willing to risk damage to our credit rating.  What more can they do to us and all the others like us?
> We certainly don't want to hurt other owners, but it seems to me that they are co-victims with us, with Vistana as the perpetrator.




In this market timeshare sales are way down.  They would much rather have your maintenance fee, than your unit back.  If they get the unit back, 1) They have to resale it, and 2) they have to cover the MF. 

I agree with Lisa, instead of putting yourself in a precarious credit situation, consider selling it for $1, and getting rid of it.  There is a board right here on TUG where you can do that.  If you click on Classified Ads, in the red bar at the top of the page, and follow the directions to post an Ad, you can list it for free.  If you list it for $1, it will automatically go on the "Bargain Basement Board."  To get rid of it quicker, you might consider offering to pay the closing costs and stipulate that the new owner pays the MF and assessment.

There are other internet boards where you can  advertise it for cheap or free, let us know if you need more info.

Good luck!


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## LisaRex (Jan 20, 2009)

Just wanted to say that I saw sauna lover's ad on Tug.  Good luck!!!


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## Sauna lover (Feb 5, 2009)

*How do you rate GBT Consultants?*

We are considering working with GiveBackTimeshare, a division of Strategis, with offices in Orlando, to be rid of our timeshare.  I checked with BBB and Strategis has only a C+ rating.  What does anyone klnow about GBT Consultants?


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## trader14 (Feb 5, 2009)

Sauna lover said:


> We are considering working with GiveBackTimeshare, a division of Strategis, with offices in Orlando, to be rid of our timeshare.  I checked with BBB and Strategis has only a C+ rating.  What does anyone klnow about GBT Consultants?



google is your friend: I can't vouch for the accuracy but did see this http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/396/RipOff0396649.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/396/RipOff0396649.htm

In trying to find a place to sell my timeshare, I came across givebacktimeshare.com - Everywhere on their website says free, but then I get the email below.... Lucky I didnt fall victim!

From: kerry.gutierrez@givebacktimeshare.com [mailto:kerry.gutierrez@givebacktimeshare.com]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:02 AM
To: Lisa L
Subject: Monarch Grand Vacations and Pueblo Bonito Rose

Good morning Lisa,

I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I have good news regarding your Monarch Grand Vacations and Pueblo Bonito Rose timeshares. We are currently accepting your timeshares in our inventory. Here is how we can assist you with their timeshares. We will transfer the timeshares out of your names and into our name.

To do so, we use Timeshare Closing Services, Inc. for the transfer of the title and Escrow services. They are a licensed, bonded, and insured title company who has transferred over 60,000 properties. The title transfer process will take approximately 90-120 days. Here is a link to their site: www.TimeshareClosingServices.com.

Services handled by the title agency are as follows:

- Estoppel Verification with the Resort – (Confirms ownership and verifies all fees are current)
- Preparation of all documents to transfer ownership out of your name and into our name
- Prepaid Delivery of documents
- County Deed Recording fees (if applicable)
- Delivery of Documents to the resort for acknowledgement of transfer
- A Copy of all Documents delivered to you for your records
- Escrow Services until Resort acknowledgement of transfer

Keep in mind, we are not a listing company and do not charge an upfront fee. Listing companies are at most times a scam where they promise to sell your timeshare at an unrealistic price and charge you an upfront fee to do so. After you pay the listing company the upfront fee, they take your money and you never hear from them again.

Our services are 100% guaranteed.

The only cost to would be $1995 per week, which includes the title agency's closing costs, resort transfer fees, deed recording fees and holding costs. All funds will be held in an escrow account with Timeshare Closing Services, Inc. until the resort has confirmed that you are no longer the owners. You will never have to pay another maintenance fee again. We will take over your liabilities forever.

We can get started on the transfer of title right away. I can email an agreement to you, which spells out everything explained here and shows that your funds are 100% guaranteed. We offer a guaranteed transfer of ownership. Feel free to contact me anytime with questions or concerns at 407-956-3638 or toll free at 877-333-6504 ext. 3638. Thank you and I look forward to working with you.

Best regards,
Kerry Gutierrez
Senior Consultant
Givebacktimeshare.com
_________________________________________________________
Here is my response:
What sounds like a scam is this. $1995 per week! I feel sorry for the people who fall for it, because that is a lot of money! There are no “deed recordings", etc necessary – believe me – I have done my research! My cost is $100 to transfer through my timeshare company to a new owner. I read about you on Rip off Report, and now I know what that person said is true.

Please do not contact me again.
_______________________________________________________

If you just want out of your timeshare and it is paid for, you can write your timeshare company a letter telling them that you would like to reliquish ownership b/c you cant afford to pay the maintenence dues. OR, you can 'gift' it to someone so they can have the timeshare and take over the maintenance dues by contacting your timeshare directly -- for only $100.

If it is not paid for, you still have options! Contact your timeshare and just talk to them.

Scams are everywhere - dont become a victim.
Best Wishes,
Lisa L --- just a caring individual 

Lisa l
Corona, California
U.S.A.


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## Sauna lover (Feb 5, 2009)

*Timeshare Relief, Inc.?*

GBT Consultants referred us to Timeshare Relief, Inc, who have offered to take our Vistana week off our hands forever for what seems a very large fee.  Who knows anything about this company?  Is it true that a deeded timeshare's obligations never end, and that our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren will forever be stuck with it?


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 5, 2009)

*Stuck Is In The Eye Of The Beholder.*




Sauna lover said:


> GBT Consultants referred us to Timeshare Relief, Inc, who have offered to take our Vistana week off our hands forever for what seems a very large fee.  Who knows anything about this company?  Is it true that a deeded timeshare's obligations never end, and that our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren will forever be stuck with it?


See if any parts of this hypothetical Nightmare Scenario apply to your situation. 

Children & grandchildren & great-grandchildren may be "stuck" with an inherited timeshare if it's no good -- because whoever owns it is responsible for paying the ongoing mandatory fees year after year.  

But if the heirs know how to use their timeshare(s) advantageously for outstanding vacations, then they're getting value for money & aren't exactly "stuck." 

Even though buying timeshares is lots easier than selling'm, people who are finished with their timeshares can find ways to transfer ownership to others (via sale or gift) without falling prey to the various "solution" & "relief" companies lying in wait out there in Scam City. 

Hang in there. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## CeeWoo (Feb 5, 2009)

Since I don't want to burden any family/friends, I might will it to someone I don't like (like maybe a board member )


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## James1975NY (Mar 4, 2009)

Does anyone have the specifics of the Springs section rehab?

I understand the cost per week is $1626 but what is the payment schedule?


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## nodge (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi James,

Check out page 6 of this brochure for the answers you seek.

If you still have questions, check out this list of FAQ's provided by SVO.

If you have the time, maybe you can ask your former co-workers at SVO how "paint" for a 1200 square foot remodel can cost $4,018/villa.  (Is SVO paying its lawyers $400/hour to paint its villas? . . . which still wouldn't explain that quote because even a lawyer could paint 1200 square feet in under 10 hours . . ..  Maybe SVO has commissioned an artist to create original works of art in each unit -- and the artist/painter just happens to be the wife of an SVO executive?  I would think there would be a little more detail on how these numbers were achieved, and what bidding process was followed, etc., but that's just me.)

Enjoy!
-nodge


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## tlpnet (Mar 4, 2009)

James1975NY said:


> Does anyone have the specifics of the Springs section rehab?
> 
> I understand the cost per week is $1626 but what is the payment schedule?


 
I think you're getting the $1,626 from another section. My notes are that the Springs SA is $1,317, the first installment of $658.53 paid April last year and $658.53 due April this year. You just made me realize that I haven't yet received the April-09 billing, and it's not showing as due yet at MSC. I wonder if they will adjust it based on actuals as the work is currently progressing.

-tim


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## James1975NY (Mar 5, 2009)

nodge said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Check out page 6 of this brochure for the answers you seek.
> 
> ...



I have to say - an extremely resourceful group here!!

Thank you much Nodge!

I am not going to touch the question on the paint


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## nodge (Mar 5, 2009)

James1975NY said:


> I am not going to touch the question on the paint



Wise man.

Do you think the high "paint" expense is for those two pineapple paintings in the bedroom (on page 7 of the brochure)?  Who knows, maybe after painting several thousand of them, the SVO exec wives could develop enough skill to work their way up to painting pictures of grapefruits and . . . dare I say it . . . oranges.

I digress, and maybe I’m just crankier than normal lately, but has anyone else been getting invitations to “jewelry parties?"  From my experience, they tend to work like this.  Basically, someone you hardly know, that you caught turning on their heel in order to avoid talking to you once a couple of years ago and who usually has a kid in one of your kid’s classes and you're fairly sure that kid had a birthday party a few weeks ago that your kid didn’t get invited to, so you want to improve that situation if you can, buys a bunch of cheap beads and fishing line and strings them all together into a giant mess (aka “jewelry”) and then “invites” you to their “party” where you are supposed to be happy to buy one or two of their “works” from them to the tune of $250 to $500 a pop.  

Maybe those pineapple paintings are somebody’s “work” from the Orlando equivalent of a “jewelry party,” and a SVO exec was lucky enough to get VR owners to pay his tab.

-nodge

Oh yeah.  On a completely unrelated note, I have some lovely beaded jewelry available for sale if anyone is interested.  No wait!   Maybe I'll thow a "party!"  Bring your checkbooks!


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## LisaRex (Mar 6, 2009)

From Nodge's link:

What is the breakdown of the cost per villa?
The refurbishment cost for each villa will be approximately $67,170.

Kitchen $289*
Cabinets/countertops - $13,575 
Master bedroom/bathroom* – $8,004
Guest bedroom/bathroom* – $4,155 
Dining room – $4,134
Living room – $12,040 
Patio/balcony – $784
Tile flooring – $5,245
Paint – $4,018 
Demolition/renovation - $7,859
Stairwell improvements – $2,500 
Other/contingency – $9,023

* This estimate is for furniture, fixtures and equipment only. Reserves will be used to offset the refurbishment cost by $4,456 per villa.

***

Wow. 

Nearly $8,000 to demolish a 1200 square foot villa. Ha ha ha ha!
$5000 to tile approximately 800 square feet? 
$4000 for a dining room table, chairs, and lighting (because the tile and paint are itemized separately). 
$4000 for PAINT????
$9000 or 14% of the budget for "other/contingency" Is that a fancy way of saying "Lining our pockets"?

It is very evident that the Owners are getting their eyeballs ripped out.  With as many units as they are refurbishing, Owners should be getting a very nice contractor's discount on materials and paying competitive rates for labor.  Instead, it appears that *someone* is making a killer profit from this project.  

Take note, Starwood: When people are backed into a corner, they fight.


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## Robert D (Mar 6, 2009)

My guess is that Starwood is getting some kind of administrative fee that is a % of the cost of the refurb, so the more they spend, the more they make!


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