# [2015 Thread] Wyndham VIP and Resale



## raptor78 (Jul 26, 2015)

Before anyone bashes VIP, I am fully aware of the costs/value etc 

That being said -- I have a fairly large number of contracts with Wyndham - during current stay, after politely telling them no thanks, they made a last ditch offer that at least, on the surface, made me perk my ears...

The offer was 109K to top off my account to Platinum with specific incentive to convert all resale contracts to VIP eligible

Yes, I have my doubts to their ability to do this, but I am still exploring... And nothing is signed, I'm smarter than that 

The question is for you smart Wyndham folks out there -- what type of verbiage would you expect to see in the contract that would provide such a protection?

Secondarily, is it even remotely possible to do such a thing or?

Again, nothing signed -- but if I could truly convert all my resale to VIP eligible for a small fee, thereby having Platinum, I would consider it...

Feedback please...

Thanks!


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## am1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I doubt it.


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

raptor78 said:


> Before anyone bashes VIP, I am fully aware of the costs/value etc
> 
> That being said -- I have a fairly large number of contracts with Wyndham - during current stay, after politely telling them no thanks, they made a last ditch offer that at least, on the surface, made me perk my ears...
> 
> ...



Converting your existing resale points contracts to count toward VIP would be a significant departure from Wyndham policy.  I would expect to see something about unicorns in the contract if this is true.

If you have non-Wyndham intervals, they will give you PIC points for those that count toward VIP, but those have an expiration of 5 years I think.


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## ecwinch (Jul 26, 2015)

It would depend on what they mean by "VIP eligible".

Do they mean that the points from the resale contracts would be counted toward attaining platinum VIP status?

or 

Do they mean that the points from the resale contracts could be used as VIP points ONCE you top off your acct to become a platinum VIP member?

If the latter - then they are not promising you anything. All the points in a VIP acct can be used as VIP points. That might change in the future, but right now once an acct has VIP status then all the points have those benefits. Which I think is what they are saying.

If they are converting the contracts to VIP status, then I would expect the contract to be an assignment document, where you assign the contracts to Wyndham in exchange for a fixed number of Wyndham points. But I have only heard of them doing this with fixed weeks for certain affiliate resorts or the PIC program as previously mentioned.


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## raptor78 (Jul 26, 2015)

*And the rest of the story....*

So having finally received my "clarification" I have the rest of the story...

I currently have 735K of VIP points - Gold
I am short, obviously, 265K

Their offer is not to make the remaining resale contracts on my account VIP, rather they are acknowledging if you have VIP from other contracts, all of your contracts, including resale, receive the VIP benefits...

Their offer was to add to PICs from Sands Ocean Club Resort (2 weeks, 154K per week)

The RTU on the PIC weeks is for 15 years, owned as long as the MF are paid ($600 per week per year)

Purchase also includes 105k net new points (WCA)

$19800

Before I get the run away -- The $19k doesn't necessarily bother me, but the value for the $19k is my concern -- the 105k new new points is probably $10-$13k of the purchase and the balance is for the PIC weeks -- seems expensive for the PIC weeks -- suspecting I could do something better, another route, if I wanted to top up to Platinum...

Thoughts, opinions, pros/cons?

Mike


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## ecwinch (Jul 26, 2015)

Thought so.

I would negotiate them down on # of points you are required to buy. Try getting them to do a EOY contract for 63k. With the PIC weeks that gets you VIP Platinum. Would also be nice if they threw in the PIC fee and some bonus points.


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

raptor78 said:


> So having finally received my "clarification" I have the rest of the story...
> 
> I currently have 735K of VIP points - Gold
> I am short, obviously, 265K
> ...



It is true that nearly all VIP benefits currently apply to resale points, though they don't count toward attaining VIP level.  It is also true that regardless what salesmen say, the ability to get VIP benefits for resale points is more a limitation of Wyndham's system than it is a Wyndham policy.  When they work out a resolution to that limitation, you can expect VIP benefits on resale points to go away.

If you really want to get to Platinum, this isn't a bad way to do it.  See if you can get them down to 13K for the same deal, though.

And to be clear, have they _told_ you that they will give you PIC points for 15 years?  And if they did, will they put it in writing?  In Wyndham's PIC program description, they state that if PIC is done in concert with a developer purchase, the PIC points will be awarded indefinitely, but if it is done after the fact there is a 5 year cap.  I have seen explanations here that would lead me to believe there is a 5 year cap no matter when they are applied.


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## raptor78 (Jul 26, 2015)

The EOY is a good idea - will run that by them
The RTU for 15 years is verbal at the moment, as I haven't seen the contract - but I guarantee it will be in writing before I sign


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## ecwinch (Jul 26, 2015)

Go get them - and remember that the party at the negotiating table that is willing to walk away has the most power. There will always be another opportunity to close a deal like this. They have yet to offer anything special.


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

raptor78 said:


> The EOY is a good idea - will run that by them
> The RTU for 15 years is verbal at the moment, as I haven't seen the contract - but I guarantee it will be in writing before I sign



The EOY is actually the best idea presented to you here.  It would allow you to get to Platinum with the PIC points at a lower buy-in.


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## kennethglss (Jul 26, 2015)

i was at cypress palms and was tricked into a sales tour they said if i bought a small contract that my resale points would become wyndhamized and would be vip silver from now on i did not buy wanted to check facts they said to buy a eoy 105,000 points and i have 392000 resale point bought from ebay can that be true


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

kennethglss said:


> i was at cypress palms and was tricked into a sales tour they said if i bought a small contract that my resale points would become wyndhamized and would be vip silver from now on i did not buy wanted to check facts they said to buy a eoy 105,000 points and i have 392000 resale point bought from ebay can that be true



Nope.  Not as you describe it.  There is no mechanism by which to "Wyndhamize" resale points.  On the other hand, the benefits of Silver Ownership over 400K points you buy resale do not justify spending the extra tens of thousands to get there.


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## am1 (Jul 26, 2015)

If you were to trade in the resale points and then got 1 deed those points would count.


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

am1 said:


> If you were to trade in the resale points and then got 1 deed those points would count.



Trading in those resale points would amount to giving back the resale points and paying near developer price to replace them.


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## am1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> Trading in those resale points would amount to giving back the resale points and paying near developer price to replace them.



Depends how it is done.  Use to work and is the only way to guarantee  the new vip benefits would be delivered.


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## Bigrob (Jul 26, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> Trading in those resale points would amount to giving back the resale points and paying near developer price to replace them.



I think what Adam is saying is that if he negotiates it as an "upgrade" - for example, they take in the current points and roll it along with the additional new developer points into a larger CWA deed for example - they will all count as developer points. The problem is, I don't believe they'll do this (called an equity swap or some such) with points that were acquired on the resale market. 

However, times are a'changing, as we've seen with Ovation and current Wyndham resale prices, so perhaps this is being quietly test-marketed in a couple of locations.


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## Ty1on (Jul 26, 2015)

am1 said:


> Depends how it is done.  Use to work and is the only way to guarantee  the new vip benefits would be delivered.



I will endeavor to find out the particulars about this.


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## ronparise (Jul 27, 2015)

raptor78 said:


> So having finally received my "clarification" I have the rest of the story...
> 
> I currently have 735K of VIP points - Gold
> I am short, obviously, 265K
> ...



So you are Gold now and the deal is to spend $20000 to get to platinum.. and the question is:  Is there any value to that transaction?  Your discounts go from 35% to 50% and you get an additional 5 guest confirms. 

If you were to make all your reservations in the discount window the additional 15% is worth about 150000 points  a year or something under $1000, and the extra guest confirms another $500.  I coukd make the argument that a $1500 annual return on a $20000 is a pretty good deal, But will you really use those benefits, Do you currently use the 10 guestconfirms you get now?  If not; the additional 5 wont mean a thing.  And how often do you make your reservations in the discount window? If something less than all the time, the benefit of going from gold to platinum isnt very meaningful.


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I think what Adam is saying is that if he negotiates it as an "upgrade" - for example, they take in the current points and roll it along with the additional new developer points into a larger CWA deed for example - they will all count as developer points. The problem is, I don't believe they'll do this (called an equity swap or some such) with points that were acquired on the resale market.
> 
> However, times are a'changing, as we've seen with Ovation and current Wyndham resale prices, so perhaps this is being quietly test-marketed in a couple of locations.



Yes.  I am not sure if they currently offer it.  In fact I doubt it.  But this is the only way all points would be considered retail.  I would not trust a sales person saying they can get the code on a purchase changed.


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## Timeshare Von (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't buy it for a minute!

Reminds me of back when we owned a couple of old fixed weeks.  We had a crafty salesman offer to convert them (they were also resales) to points if we bought 105k points at Star Island.  With the three contracts, that would have gotten us to VIP Gold I believe, and he said we'd have all of the rights & benefits.

The total cost to buy plus do the conversions was around $12,000 which we felt could be worth the price.

The only hitch was that we demanded in writing, in the purchase contract, the details of the VIP Gold.  The day drug on and on, so they said they would get the paperwork together to cover that.  But when we saw the paperwork, nothing was in writing to confirm that, so we rescinded the entire deal immediately onsite.

The local sales offices do not have the ability to override the Wyndham corporate policy on such matters so for any of them to say that, is simply B/S!


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## Ty1on (Jul 27, 2015)

Timeshare Von said:


> The local sales offices do not have the ability to override the Wyndham corporate policy on such matters so for any of them to say that, is simply B/S!



This.....................


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2015)

Timeshare Von ...

Today, the sales offices do the "Bonus Points" which gives the account Temporary VIP for around 18 months ... what I call "Smoke & Mirrors" as the account gets labeled "Platinum" for a period of time WELL beyond the recession window.


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## Timeshare Von (Jul 27, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Timeshare Von ...
> 
> Today, the sales offices do the "Bonus Points" which gives the account Temporary VIP for around 18 months ... what I call "Smoke & Mirrors" as the account gets labeled "Platinum" for a period of time WELL beyond the recession window.



I know/understand that.  That isn't what was happening in my/our situation.  It was clearly a falsehood they were dishing out.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2015)

Timeshare Von said:


> I know/understand that.  That isn't what was happening in my/our situation.  It was clearly a falsehood they were dishing out.



Yes ... they were twisting the truth (as in "not lying") but NOT disclosing all the details ... 

What was that old saying *"the truth is in the details".*


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## Bigrob (Jul 27, 2015)

ronparise said:


> So you are Gold now and the deal is to spend $20000 to get to platinum.. and the question is:  Is there any value to that transaction?  Your discounts go from 35% to 50% and you get an additional 5 guest confirms.
> 
> If you were to make all your reservations in the discount window the additional 15% is worth about 150000 points  a year or something under $1000, and the extra guest confirms another $500.  I coukd make the argument that a $1500 annual return on a $20000 is a pretty good deal, But will you really use those benefits, Do you currently use the 10 guestconfirms you get now?  If not; the additional 5 wont mean a thing.  And how often do you make your reservations in the discount window? If something less than all the time, the benefit of going from gold to platinum isnt very meaningful.



Unless they end up with exactly 1,000,000 VIP eligible points, they would actually be getting an additional 20 guest confirmations, not 5. At 1,001,000 points, you get 30 guest confirmations. So 20 guest confirmations per year, if you use them, is worth $2,000 a year.


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Unless they end up with exactly 1,000,000 VIP eligible points, they would actually be getting an additional 20 guest confirmations, not 5. At 1,001,000 points, you get 30 guest confirmations. So 20 guest confirmations per year, if you use them, is worth $2,000 a year.



And that is where the deal has merit.  

Also the difference between platinum and gold at a million points is more than 150 000 points.  The Platinum turns it into 2 million where gold is just over 1.5 million.


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## ronparise (Jul 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> And that is where the deal has merit.
> 
> Also the difference between platinum and gold at a million points is more than 150 000 points.  The Platinum turns it into 2 million where gold is just over 1.5 million.



My math is off, but the  point is the same. The purchase can make sense but only if the op pushes the account to the fullest. 

20 additional guest confirms are worth $2000 to me, but with only a million or so points the op will have trouble using them all, which makes them worthless.   

Regarding the the value of a 50% discount vs 35%; unless the op is already doing the cancel rebook and upgrade trick all the time, Platinum wont save him much, if anything. 

Unless we have another megarenter in training, I would keep the $20000 and enjoy the Gold benefits.


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## raygo123 (Jul 27, 2015)

I would not trust them with a 205 ft pole with a cattle prode on the end seeing is beleiving make sure of two things I price per 1000 between $130 and 150 and u end up with one contract for 1 million points pay no more than 16000 plus cloaing

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2015)

ronparise said:


> My math is off, but the  point is the same. The purchase can make sense but only if the op pushes the account to the fullest.
> 
> 20 additional guest confirms are worth $2000 to me, but with only a million or so points the op will have trouble using them all, which makes them worthless.
> 
> ...



Right it all depends on how one uses their account.  But the jump from gold to platinum can be a good one.  The OP and others have the correct numbers.


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## bnoble (Jul 27, 2015)

> unless the op is already doing the cancel rebook and upgrade trick all the time



Even if this is true, I'm not sure I would plan a major purchase around the continued success of cancel-rebook, based on what folks have been reporting.


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## Bigrob (Jul 28, 2015)

bnoble said:


> Even if this is true, I'm not sure I would plan a major purchase around the continued success of cancel-rebook, based on what folks have been reporting.



This is an excellent point. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. VIP benefits can be diluted or changed at will.


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## regatta333 (Jan 25, 2020)

Bigrob said:


> I think what Adam is saying is that if he negotiates it as an "upgrade" - for example, they take in the current points and roll it along with the additional new developer points into a larger CWA deed for example - they will all count as developer points. The problem is, I don't believe they'll do this (called an equity swap or some such) with points that were acquired on the resale market.
> 
> However, times are a'changing, as we've seen with Ovation and current Wyndham resale prices, so perhaps this is being quietly test-marketed in a couple of locations.



Does Wyndham even do equity swaps for anything other than CWA anymore?  I got a call from Wyndham a few weeks ago saying the VIP levels would be increasing and this would be my last to upgrade my membership before the levels increased.  I have 4 contracts grandfathered gold at 588k points and another two resale that get me to 868 K.  I told him I would be interested if I could do an equity swap for a resort with a low maintenance fee.  He offered to replace two of my gold contracts with CWA.  I told him the CWA maintenance fees were not low enough, but that was all he kept coming back to.

He would not do anything with the two resale contracts, but insisted that with a 142k "new" purchase of CWA, they would be counted towards getting me to VIP platinum.  I was very skeptical that this would work; otherwise why would they not be eligible to swap for CWA?  Anyway, the conversation deteriorated as he kept insisting he had met my criteria for upgrading my account and kept trying to walk me through the numbers.  I told him I would need a few weeks to talk it over with my husband and decide.  He said the deal would only be available until the next day and I said so be it.

I am not sure if I will get a different result by trying to contact Corporate Sales.  Has anyone done that lately?


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 25, 2020)

Ensure that it is written that you are Permanent Platinum and state actual point values and which contracts are considered developer purchases.  If they won't include that then NO.  You could hand write it on the contract and have them sign and date the additional text.


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## Braindead (Jan 25, 2020)

regatta333 said:


> Does Wyndham even do equity swaps for anything other than CWA anymore?  I got a call from Wyndham a few weeks ago saying the VIP levels would be increasing and this would be my last to upgrade my membership before the levels increased.  I have 4 contracts grandfathered gold at 588k points and another two resale that get me to 868 K.  I told him I would be interested if I could do an equity swap for a resort with a low maintenance fee.  He offered to replace two of my gold contracts with CWA.  I told him the CWA maintenance fees were not low enough, but that was all he kept coming back to.
> 
> He would not do anything with the two resale contracts, but insisted that with a 142k "new" purchase of CWA, they would be counted towards getting me to VIP platinum.  I was very skeptical that this would work; otherwise why would they not be eligible to swap for CWA?  Anyway, the conversation deteriorated as he kept insisting he had met my criteria for upgrading my account and kept trying to walk me through the numbers.  I told him I would need a few weeks to talk it over with my husband and decide.  He said the deal would only be available until the next day and I said so be it.
> 
> I am not sure if I will get a different result by trying to contact Corporate Sales.  Has anyone done that lately?


Assuming telesales called you,  the answer is yes they will only trade you into a CWA contract.
If you go to a sales site they can do a equity trade into a deeded contract or a CWA contract.
Make sure you look closely at the cost of an equity trade.

Personally I would do my negotiating looking at the cost of buying a separate contract first. 
Then look at an equity trade deal into one contract for the same price.


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## chapjim (Jan 25, 2020)

ronparise said:


> My math is off, but the  point is the same. The purchase can make sense but only if the op pushes the account to the fullest.
> 
> 20 additional guest confirms are worth $2000 to me, but with only a million or so points the op will have trouble using them all, which makes them worthless.
> 
> ...



He'd have to do a lot of weekend rentals to use that many GCs with one million points.


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## bobinmich (Jan 25, 2020)

Bigrob said:


> I think what Adam is saying is that if he negotiates it as an "upgrade" - for example, they take in the current points and roll it along with the additional new developer points into a larger CWA deed for example - they will all count as developer points. The problem is, I don't believe they'll do this (called an equity swap or some such) with points that were acquired on the resale market.
> 
> However, times are a'changing, as we've seen with Ovation and current Wyndham resale prices, so perhaps this is being quietly test-marketed in a couple of locations.


This would be WONDERFUL and put a lot of resale buyers into the market for VIP levels.


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## Richelle (Jan 26, 2020)

bobinmich said:


> This would be WONDERFUL and put a lot of resale buyers into the market for VIP levels.



Agreed. I’d be all over that. I’d buy 105,000 points if it made my 800,000 eligible towards VIP. I would actually consider doing CWA for that. That would more then put me in founders status. Alas, I doubt it will happen. It would be a big boost in sales though. Might tick off more then a few VIPs who paid six figures for VIP though.


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## Bigrob (Jan 26, 2020)

FYI you are commenting on a thread from 2015. So much has changed that the responses you are quoting and responding to are no longer valid due to these many changes.


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