# Pahio owners: Wyndham changes



## linsj (Dec 8, 2009)

I own a Pahio week at Kauai Beach Villas and went to the Wyndham owners' update today for a variety of reasons. Of course, they want me to upgrade my week by buying Wyndham points at highly inflated prices. I posted a fuller report on the update meeting in the Hawaii forum, but here's the relevant info for current Pahio owners.

Wyndham is aggressively trying to move Pahio owners into Wyndham points. (No surprise here.) Their goal is to completely dissolve the Pahio subset by the time they sell off the remaining Bali Hai units. So they are targetting Pahio and other Wyndham owners for these units. Their estimate for selling out is 3-8 months, which is overly optimistic given the current economy. 

Today's offer to get me into Wyndham was to upgrade my one-bedroom, every odd year, to two weeks worth 266,000 points that can be used over three years and effectively get me three weeks in a one-bedroom. To do so, I would have to pay a points conversion fee ($189 if done during the tour, $2395 if done later) and buy the lowest minimum points package, which would automatically put me in VIP status (154,000 every even year for $13,163!). I'm not interested in converting and upgrading at this price.

However, Wyndham's quest to move Pahio owners into Wyndham affects those of us who choose not to do so. As more owners go this route, fewer weeks are available to us for booking. As of July, 20% have converted. At some point, we may be able to book only the deed week we own even if it's a float week. Since I own week 7, I don't see that as much of a problem because vacationing in February works for my schedule.

With Wyndham's aggressiveness in this area, I'm surprised we haven't received a letter about converting--at least I haven't--since not everyone is going to attend an owners' update. Have any of you other Pahio owners heard anything?

Other notes: As part of the meeting, I saw a model of the upgrades that are coming to all the Pahio properties; and I am impressed. Also, the sales lady said our MFs will be decreasing a few dollars next year. I questioned that one since Starwood owners are reporting huge increases. Since I own an odd year, I can't verify that statement. Can anyone else?

An aside: Wyndham put in a bid to buy the Hilton hotel next to Kauai Beach Villas. Obviously, they didn't win since it's being taken over by Aqua Hotels and Resorts. (The sales lady didn't know Wyndham had lost the bid.)


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## DeniseM (Dec 8, 2009)

> As of July, 20% have converted. At some point, we may be able to book only the deed week we own even if it's a float week. Since I own week 7, I don't see that as much of a problem because vacationing in February works for my schedule.



This is typical sales-bologna!  I don't believe that the majority of Pahio owners will ever convert to Wyndham points - it's a lousy deal!  Wyndham points aren't worth doo doo on the resale market so you'd have to be crazy to buy a developer week!  

Also - Wyndham cannot unilaterally convert a floating week into a fixed week.

Did she mention the new pool?  The one we paid a special assessment for several years ago???

I will NEVER convert my 2 weeks!  :annoyed:


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## DaveNV (Dec 8, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> I will NEVER convert my 2 weeks!  :annoyed:



Me neither.  Points would never work for me.  Especially when they can devalue the points at will, so it takes more to get less.  I'm not great at math, but from my perspective, seven nights is still seven nights.

Dave


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## drguy (Dec 8, 2009)

This is an interesting development.  We recently purchased a Pahio Bali Hai 2 bedroom "penthouse" EOY on eBay for $1.25.  I have no desire to upgrade at any price.  Nor does my wife, the boss.
They didn't exercise ROFR as they did 8 months ago when I "won" a similar eBay auction for $800+.  Hard to believe thast they are going to convert a lot of owners, or potential owners.
Guy.


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## DeniseM (Dec 8, 2009)

This has been going on at least 3 years - we were "offered" the "opportunity" to convert 3 years ago on a Wyndham tour on the big island.  At that point I believe the cheapest developer purchase was $16K or $18K.


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## linsj (Dec 8, 2009)

I didn't realize Wyndham had been trying to convert Pahio weeks for the past three years since I just bought last year. I know not everyone will convert, including me. But it's logical that as more owners do, there will be fewer weeks to choose from when booking since they will be taken out of the Pahio pool. The sales area was packed this morning, and the sales incentives/bonuses were enticing to someone who's not familiar with the resale market. Judging from the conversations I overhead, people were buying.

I asked about the pool, but no one could tell me anything. That's when I found out about Wyndham's bid for the Hilton hotel. They are hoping the new owner will allow access privileges again. I'm going to the KBV owners' meeting tomorrow morning and intend to ask about the pool at that time since the property manager will be there.


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## linsj (Dec 9, 2009)

Those of you with annual contracts: How do next year's MFs compare to this year's?

Edited to add: I found out this morning that the bills have not been sent yet.


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## ouaifer (Dec 9, 2009)

linsj said:


> Wyndham is aggressively trying to move Pahio owners into Wyndham points. (No surprise here.) Their goal is to completely dissolve the Pahio subset by the time they sell off the remaining Bali Hai units. So they are targetting Pahio and other Wyndham owners for these units. Their estimate for selling out is 3-8 months, which is overly optimistic given the current economy.



 _First, this will never happen.  This has been ongoing for decades...yes, decades.  First with RCI...trying to convert everyone to Points; now Wyndham, to their points' system.  Most of the weeks' owners are still weeks' owners and have little to no incentive to change.  We enjoy going there, and will continue to do so.  The sales folk didn't happen to mention how many converted to RCI points, and then reverted back to weeks....we know several who have done that. _





linsj said:


> However, Wyndham's quest to move Pahio owners into Wyndham affects those of us who choose not to do so. As more owners go this route, fewer weeks are available to us for booking. As of July, 20% have converted. At some point, we may be able to book only the deed week we own even if it's a float week. Since I own week 7, I don't see that as much of a problem because vacationing in February works for my schedule.



_This is absolutely INACCURATE!  The weeks owners get first dibs on reservations 16 months in advance.  It's like for like, and always will be...the (first) legal purchase documents are written that way.  Never, NEVER listen to those sales types.  They are only interested in one thing...and it's not to your benefit.  Before you"run scared", do as you have done, and post here.  We have been going to Ka'Eo Kai for more than 20 years...and have seen and heard it all.  There are others who frequent this site, who have been going there even longer...and have owned since the very beginning._



linsj said:


> With Wyndham's aggressiveness in this area, I'm surprised we haven't received a letter about converting--at least I haven't--since not everyone is going to attend an owners' update. Have any of you other Pahio owners heard anything?



_Very unlikely that this will ever happen.  If you notice, the letters we receive still has "PAHIO" on the letters, whereas Wyndham has no reference to it._


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## linsj (Dec 9, 2009)

ouaifer, I'm not running scared, just trying to grapple with the situation.

After the KBV owners' update this morning, several of us talked to the resort manager about Wyndham's push to points. She said that the pool of weeks to choose from for reservations became smaller with the push to RCI points and is now becoming smaller with Wyndham's push to points. She doesn't know how many have converted; however, she does know of a number of long-time KBV owners who recently have converted their weeks. 

The resort manager is trying to bring weeks reservations back in house (not sure if she meant only KBV or all of the former Pahio properties) to make it easier for owners to reserve weeks other than what they own, especially with that weeks pool growing smaller.


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## tango (Dec 9, 2009)

Just to add to the chorus:  I would not be interested in ever converting to points either.  
We will be there next April, for the first time.


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## rifleman69 (Dec 10, 2009)

We're on RCI points (not Wyndham points) and we're not about to switch over to Wyndham points at all.   I don't care if Wyndham owners get the newer buildings at Bali Hai, I'm not in the room enough to enjoy the hardwood floors among the other amenities.   They tried to switch us over to Wyndham points back in August 2007 for the low low price of #13,000 but we weren't interested.   They weren't that pushy about the sale, just brought in another "closer" and we said no so that was it.  I don't believe the 20% have already converted spin at all.

Using the points to head to the Grand Mayan Nuevo Vallarta this year but should be back to Kauai in 2011.   It works for us while Wynhdam points will not.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 10, 2009)

I doubt fees are going down next year.  Don't believe it.  Hawaii is the most expensive possible place to own.  Our fees will go up and up and up, especially with Wyndham at the helm.  I would expect an $80 increase each year for the next ten.  That's how it's been going.  When we first bought at Bali Hai, resale, the fees were $674, and that was 2005.  Now they are way over $900.   Don't believe anything they say.


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## Bill4728 (Dec 10, 2009)

Wyndham has been trying to get summer owners of weeks in Newport RI to convert to points for sometime. All with the same story, "so many people will convert to points, you have a hard time getting the week you want"  BUT almost no one is converting to points and the only people who have a hard time getting the summer week they want are the poor suckers who converted to points. 

If staying at a single wyndham resort like KBV is what you want to do, then the best way to assure that you will be able to do that is stay in weeks and NOT CONVERT!


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## jacknsara (Dec 11, 2009)

linsj said:


> Those of you with annual contracts: How do next year's MFs compare to this year's?
> 
> Edited to add: I found out this morning that the bills have not been sent yet.



Aloha,
Did you find out when they expect to mail them out?
Mahalo
Jack


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## ouaifer (Dec 11, 2009)

*Maintenance fees*



jacknsara said:


> Aloha,
> Did you find out when they expect to mail them out?
> Mahalo
> Jack



_    Aloha mai kaua, Jack,
Are you on island now?  Tell us how the weather and waves are.
We received *our* bills last Saturday for Ka'Eo Kai....not sure when your's will be out.  I was surprised that they had mentioned these were available in October.  Before Wyndham came into the picture, the bills were mailed out before Thanksgiving, and due in January.  These current bills now indicate that they are due and payable on January 1, 2010.   

Sorry we will miss you this year.  We have to coordinate this better.  Have a wonderful and relaxing vacation.

Love to Sara._


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## mstoyanov (Dec 11, 2009)

Actually, there is some truth in what salesman was saying - floating week and point converted units are definitely kept in separate pools (that I believe is by law since these are different classes of owners). Now the big question is how the weeks are removed from floating pool - is it based on deeded week of the converting owner or Wyndham can arbitrary choose which week to remove? In my opinion the only fair way will be to remove deeded weeks.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 11, 2009)

mstoyanov said:


> Actually, there is some truth in what salesman was saying - floating week and point converted units are definitely kept in separate pools (that I believe is by law since these are different classes of owners). Now the big question is how the weeks are removed from floating pool - is it based on deeded week of the converting owner or Wyndham can arbitrary choose which week to remove? In my opinion the only fair way will be to remove deeded weeks.


The way that almost every point system operates is that the point system control the usage right for specific deeds.  Those could be deeds that are put into the point system by the developer and sold directly as points. Or those could be deeds that are joined to the points system when existing owners joing the points system.

It doesn't make any difference where the deeds come from; the points system simply has the reservation rights that are associated with the deeds that have been assigned to it. 

Thus, legally the points system is simply an owner who happens to own multiple weeks, just like any other entity that owns multiple weeks.  And like any owner, they are have *all *of the reservation rights that come with those weeks, and they have *only* the reservation rights that are associated with those weeks.  

Nominally the points club competes with every other owner to make reservations.  In fact, however, the clubs have the advantage that the person who handles reservations also happens to be on their payroll - or at the least is beholden to the club because the club probably also controls the Board of Directors for the resort.  So it's very easy for the club to assure that when there are competing reservation requests that the club's requests get filled first.


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## jacknsara (Dec 12, 2009)

ouaifer said:


> _    Aloha mai kaua, Jack,
> Are you on island now?  Tell us how the weather and waves are.
> We received *our* bills last Saturday for Ka'Eo Kai....not sure when your's will be out.  I was surprised that they had mentioned these were available in October.  Before Wyndham came into the picture, the bills were mailed out before Thanksgiving, and due in January.  These current bills now indicate that they are due and payable on January 1, 2010.
> 
> ...


Aloha Evie,
We will arrive in Kauai in two days and be there almost 5 weeks.
I was hoping to pay the MFs before we leave, but oh well.  Maybe it will show up in tomorrow's mail.
By how much (%) did your 2010 MF's go up over 2009?
Jack


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## ouaifer (Dec 12, 2009)

jacknsara said:


> Aloha Evie,
> We will arrive in Kauai in two days and be there almost 5 weeks.
> I was hoping to pay the MFs before we leave, but oh well.  Maybe it will show up in tomorrow's mail.
> By how much (%) did your 2010 MF's go up over 2009?
> Jack



_Aloha Jack,
From last year to this year, an increase of 9.51%.  However, we had *no* increase last year from the previous year.  The board could not agree on the increase amount last year.  We were told that we would be billed an additional amount during 2009, but that never came about.  So...look at it, as an increase for a 2 year span....or not.

Have a wonderful and safe trip, as I now you will.  Sorry we will miss you and Sara this year...we really need to coordinate our times better.  And save some Taro chips for us.

A hui hou.  Malama pono.  Malama 'aina.  Malama Kaua'i.
 Aloha,
Evie and Kevin_


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## randyz (Dec 12, 2009)

Bill4728 said:


> Wyndham has been trying to get summer owners of weeks in Newport RI to convert to points for sometime. All with the same story, "so many people will convert to points, you have a hard time getting the week you want"  BUT almost no one is converting to points and the only people who have a hard time getting the summer week they want are the poor suckers who converted to points.
> 
> If staying at a single wyndham resort like KBV is what you want to do, then the best way to assure that you will be able to do that is stay in weeks and NOT CONVERT!



I was part of Wyndhams earlier purchase of New Orleans, Newport etc. I believe this goes back at least 8 years. The arrangement was similar to Pahio. I converted to points which worked great for me, I did not have a desire to go back yearly. So as Bill says if you want it yearly no reason to convert. What was good for me, isn't good for everyone. 

It is my understanding that a large number of Orleans Avenue Plaza owners did convert. That would have diminished the float pool as has been written. However, I doubt it really has affected the weeks owners all that much. What really hurt the weeks owners was Katrina. Points owners were not punished by big bad Wyndham as we were permitted to use our points elsewhere in the system.

What has not happened is that very many Newport area owners converted to points. You will notice this if you try and get points reservations there. The same is currently true of all Pahio resorts outside Bali Hai. Hard to get points reservations (tried one year ago) since there has not been enough conversions. It would seem logical that most good points reservations are being gobbled up at 13 months by deeded points owners.

As was noted elsewhere in this thread no conversion sales letter was ever received. That was my experience 8 years ago as well. I knew nothing of the conversion possibilities until I visited the resort about 3 years later.

For those who enjoy arcane details and gotcha's. Avenue Plaza may have had significant week to points conversions. However, that doesn't mean you can get much points availability for Mardi Gras and Jazz Fest week. All original weeks sold were floating but those 2 weeks were sold at a premium outside the regular float, I doubt many of those weeks were converted.

One last comment I own a week at Kona Hawaiian Village and points. That resort sold out awhile back. Things seem to co-exist just fine there. I suspect the same will happen with Pahio. At KHV last year I was able to combine points and week for a total of 5 units in one week, all went very smoothly. That family gathering did show one advantage of points over weeks, flexibility. So I suggest don't let sales fear mongering affect you, purchase what works for you.   Last year I was able to Randy


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## lprstn (Dec 13, 2009)

Wow, I own points and weeks, and always preferred my points.  I see the benefits in owning a week you know you have.  Luckily, I was able to snag a Pahio with a 70K points deposit with RCI.  However, that was with a 2 year ongoing search request.

I wonder if those that convert do so because they don't plan to go to that specific resort too often.  It's nice to learn the benefits of not having points.


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## DeniseM (Dec 13, 2009)

lprstn - To convert you have to buy another week from the developer, so it's not too attractive to those of us who know about resale value.  If you could just convert for a minimal fee, I think there'd be a lot more takers.  We own 2 ocean front weeks at Kauai Beach Villas, so we have no desire to convert them to points and go elsewhere.  

Was your Pahio exchange for Kauai Beach Villas or another resort?


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## randyz (Dec 13, 2009)

Updating my prior post, after further investigation.

With regards to Pahios conversions to points and loss of availability. Past experience with Avenue Plaza may be a guide for future expectations.

Wyndham bought in 2002. Current points conversions is equivalent to about 10 units per week (of 264 total units).

Denise -  I have heard of others getting the points conversion for $2395 though I have not heard of that being offered through the sales office where additional points are pushed.

Randy


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## DeniseM (Dec 13, 2009)

We bought our 2 weeks because we wanted guaranteed OF units for a reasonable cost, so we just have no reason to convert at any price.  If I wanted Wyndham points, I'd just buy some resale.  I actually wouldn't mind, but we already own too many timeshares!


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## woodysky (Dec 30, 2009)

*Wyndham Conversion*

I was there just before Christmas and attended the same update in Princeville. I told them I was trying to get out of timeshares and asked them how giving them $13,000+ was in that spirit. They were not happy I was not budging and not buying. They said the pool was shrinking for those that did not convert. They said resale values were non existent. It is all a sham.

I got my bill this week for $1185.89, which is $69.46 above last years. This is for a 2 bedroom ocean view annually/floating.

Anyone want my timeshare cheap?

Woody


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## JWARNER (Jan 8, 2010)

*[Deleted - out of compliance]*

[Buying/Selling/Renting is not permitted in the discussion forums. - DeniseM Moderator]


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## Dalownerx3 (Jan 27, 2010)

We are original KBV owners and went through a presentation when we were in Hawaii back in June '09.  We insisted on having the sales presentation at KBV instead of Bali Hai since our daughter and her friend could stay in the room.   They pushed points and we didn't bite.  

Regarding the concern about less availablity in the pool whe more people convert to Wyndham points...

KBV owners can book 16 months in advance.  That means that units become available 16 months in advance.   How far in advance can Wyndham people book?  If it's less than 16 months in advance, then what happens to the units from the 16 month period to when Wyndham opens up their booking?


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## justski2it (Feb 8, 2011)

We finally returned to our Pahio Bali Hai timeshare this past June - we hadn't been there since we purchased in 2004.  When we bought ours, we purchased an every other year with 92,000 RCI points.  So we attended the member presentation, supposed to last only 1 hour or so.  1/2 day later we were still there.  Why would we want to spend another $13,000+ to essentially buy more points, these would be limited (as we understood the presentation) to Wyndham resorts.  We own 2 timeshares, the first was in Las Vegas, every year floating week through II in 2002.  Up to now, we have never stayed at a Wyndham resort, so why would we want to lock ourselves in?  They did infer that as more people convert to Wyndham points, the availability for Pahio owners to book would become limited, and there were a limited number of units that they would convert, so if you didn't convert now, there was no guarantee you could convert in the future.  Not for nothing, but we missed the window to book at our home resort, so I simply requested my points and used some of them to book the week we wanted.  I will tell you this, since I booked this way, they were unaware that we are owners.  They put us in a dumpy unit.  When I complained at the presentation that one reason I would not consider was because of the bad condition the resort had fallen into, they quickly moved us to one of the refurbished units and explained they didn't realized we were owners.  What difference should that make?  I argued this point with them, and it was my second reason not to purchase their points.  All guests should be treated equally.  I did lodge my complaint with RCI as well.  They are hard sell, and epitomize the tough timeshare sales pitch everyone is afraid of.  They kept making a smaller package of points, they didn't want to accept my 'no' for an answer.  I was quite capable of becoming rude, finally to my husband's approval - he usually disapproves when I get rude, and he gets embarrased.  This time he was happy, we could have been there all day!  Not what we go on vacation for.  They met their match!!  Too bad, because now that's my opinion of Wyndham and that's not how you generate business.

To change the subject, the new pool looks nice, but is small and the original pool was updated.  We love Princeville, but we'll never convert to Wyndham points!!


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## linsj (Feb 26, 2011)

New data point: I stayed at Kauai Beach Villas earlier this month and attended the owners meeting. The resort manager said 12% of KBV owners have put their weeks into Wyndham points, and 35% of all Pahio owners have done so.


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## rickandcindy23 (Feb 27, 2011)

I thought old Bali Hai units were getting updates, but two years ago, we asked to see an older unit and were shocked to see the disrepair, including torn linoleum in the kitchen, severely stained rattan furniture in the living rooms, mis-matched appliances, and old televisions.  

If I got an old unit with an RCI exchange, I would demand another one.  If you read the RCI reviews of Bali Hai from exchangers, the one thing you will take away is this: give the person at check-in a tip, and you will get a better unit.  $20, and the better units are yours.  I guess we need to spread the word on TUG that the apparently underpaid Wyndham staff is ready for a bribe.


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## california-bighorn (Feb 27, 2011)

linsj said:


> New data point: I stayed at Kauai Beach Villas earlier this month and attended the owners meeting. The resort manager said 12% of KBV owners have put their weeks into Wyndham points, and 35% of all Pahio owners have done so.



We were given the same stats when we were there last September.  And since most PAHIO owners have now had the opportunity to switch to the Wyndham system and haven't, I think the percentage going into Wyndham will increase very little.
We took the Wyndham "owners update" and there was nothing to be gained for us.  They told us the minimum package would cost us $7k.


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## Dalownerx3 (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for the update.  We saw the presentation two years ago and declined converting. 

How is the pool situation?  Now there's a reciprocal pool agreement with the hotel, is it easy to use their pool?

Also, how is the new manager now that Lani has moved to one of the Princeville resorts?   

We'll be there again this June.  We can't wait, especially given all the cold weather around here.


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## DeniseM (Feb 27, 2011)

The hotel pool area is huge and it's never crowded - you just walk over and use it - no questions asked.


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## rrlongwell (Feb 27, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I thought old Bali Hai units were getting updates, but two years ago, we asked to see an older unit and were shocked to see the disrepair, including torn linoleum in the kitchen, severely stained rattan furniture in the living rooms, mis-matched appliances, and old televisions.
> 
> If I got an old unit with an RCI exchange, I would demand another one.  If you read the RCI reviews of Bali Hai from exchangers, the one thing you will take away is this: give the person at check-in a tip, and you will get a better unit.  $20, and the better units are yours.  I guess we need to spread the word on TUG that the apparently underpaid Wyndham staff is ready for a bribe.



Even though Wyndam Vacation Resorts and RCI are owned by the same company, they do not necessarily operate the same.  I would turn the Wyndham Staff into RCI on general principles.  You should be able to request a room change, it one is available of similar size for no costs.  I know it is not required for them to do so.


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## DeniseM (Feb 27, 2011)

There was no charge - it was a tip - which was offered - not requested.  I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but tips are certainly not unusual in the hospitality industry.


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## linsj (Feb 27, 2011)

Dalownerx3 said:


> How is the pool situation?  Now there's a reciprocal pool agreement with the hotel, is it easy to use their pool?
> 
> Also, how is the new manager now that Lani has moved to one of the Princeville resorts?



The KBV pool area looks great. The hotel is asking all KBV guests to register with the front desk at the hotel even though use of the pools there is free again. I didn't go over there to find out why. 

I met the new manager at the owners' update. I like him as much as Lani; he seems to be pushing harder and faster for interior renovations. He used to work in a variety of areas in the Pahio Princeville office and is knowledgeable in a lot of different areas. In some things, like switching to AT&T wifi, they've tapped into Wyndham's buying power to reduce the cost. In others, like Wyndham's push to replace dishes, glasses, and pots & pan packages, they've resisted to save money since these items don't need to be replaced everywhere and are a lesser quality.


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## california-bighorn (Feb 27, 2011)

Dalownerx3 said:


> Thanks for the update.  We saw the presentation two years ago and declined converting.
> 
> How is the pool situation?  Now there's a reciprocal pool agreement with the hotel, is it easy to use their pool?
> 
> ...



As Denise said the pools at the hotel are available and were never even close to being crowded when we were there last September.  Since we were right next to the KBV pool we also spent some time there.  Certainly not on the same level as the hotel pools, but more than acceptable since the re-model and I got a strong Wi-Fi signal there. I was concerned when Lani told me of her promotion and assignment to Princeville, but, it appears the resort is in good hands with the new Manager Wilbert TaiHook.  I talked with several of the staff and they were excited having Wilbert as the manager.  In the brief time he had been Mgr he converted an area in the office to a small business area for owners and guests to use the computer and printer (think boarding passes) and  converted an unused area for a staff lunch room.  There was previous information here on TUG on a "model" being set up.  Can't remember, but it might be just to show what remodeled units will look like.  They were also going to be active in obtaining the units of delinquent accounts for re-sale or rentals.  It appears this resort is making positive changes and we loved our last visit and are making plans for a return soon.


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