# Considering WM for 1st TS



## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

Hello everyone. We recently purchased HGV from the developer, but between the high price and some family drama, decided to rescind. However, we've enjoyed enough marketing stays to catch the timeshare bug, and we think it's definitely something that could improve our family vacations. One of the concerns I had about week vs. points systems was that I was drawn to the idea of having a "home resort" so we would always have a backup option with minimal planning, but didn't have a permanent location in mind. On the one hand, Las Vegas is the single most reliable destination we frequent; on the other, we have a baby and are planning for a 2nd, so we're not exactly at the optimal stage of life to commit to annual Vegas trips. As for more local destinations, I didn't want to commit to any specific resort because I don't know for sure if we will live here in the long run.

I posted these concerns in the more general beginner forums, and that's when the suggestion to look into WorldMark came up. The biggest differentiator is the Marina Dunes resort near Monterey, which is a beach destination within driving distance of where we live. There are also not very many timeshare resorts in the area. Assuming it's easy enough to book, I think that checks a lot of boxes, because it gives us a local, family-friendly option, but also the ability to transition to more far-flung destinations as the kid(s) grow older. It also seems like WorldMark is a relatively simple/beginner-friendly points system, although feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that brings me to my questions:


Am I correct in understanding that there are no "home resorts" or priority booking windows, and everyone has access to the same availability 13 months out?
How easy is it to book the Marina Dunes resort in particular? I realize it wouldn't be guaranteed like a deeded week, but the main thing I want to avoid is having to be in a frenzy refreshing the web site the minute it opens up 13 months in advance only to find nothing's available. My perception is that this isn't the case for that particular resort, as it's a relatively modest 10k red week, but I am obviously not familiar with the quirks of booking with WM points.
Speaking of points, are the point values fixed? In other words, is that 10k red week always going to be 10k, or can they adjust the values each year?
Speaking of availability, is there the risk of WM "overbooking" by selling too many points, or are the point pools fixed upon creation of the resorts? Obviously the hottest destinations and weeks will be harder to book, but I just want to avoid the situation where I buy something only to find I can never book anything.
I believe there are fees to roll over points to the next year, but I didn't see any mention of fees to borrow from a future year. Are there? If not, am I correct in understanding that this can make a smaller point contract more flexible? For example, I know the week I want to book is usually 10k, so I get a 10k contract, but there are some destinations where a similar week might be 11k; if borrowing is free, I can just pull the extra 1k forward, leaving me 9k next year, but then I can just pull the next next year's points forward as well, and just keep doing that to make up any shortfall until we're left with a 0 year as a remainder, which is hardly the end of the world because you got full usage of the points you paid for. This sounds much more attractive to me than points systems where you're always penalized for moving small amounts of points between years.
I read something in another post about "premium" contracts, but it didn't provide much detail. Is that something I should be concerned with?
Speaking of contracts, my understanding is that multiple contracts will be more expensive than a single contract with the same point total due to base fees. However, one thing I don't understand is whether or not multiple resale contracts pool their points together in a single account for booking purposes, or if you have to make separate reservations using them as separate point pools subject to all the individual restrictions. The reason I ask is that if we decide to move forward, I could see us just going ahead with a single 20k contract to get 2 housekeeping credits and minimize the cost/complexity of booking 2 annual vacations and/or 1 vacation with a higher point cost. My initial inclination was to look at a 10k contract, but if there's a good chance we end up wanting more so we can invite relatives, stay in higher accommodations, etc., the 20k might just make our lives easier.
I don't think we'd be looking to do exchanges right away upon purchasing, as it's primarily for personal use based on the list of available resorts in the program, but my understanding is that it's possible to pay a fee to join an exchange (RCI? II?). Does that need to be decided at the time of purchasing a resale contract, or can that be done in a future year when we decided to look into those opportunities?

Thanks! I'm sure I will have more questions as I learn more, but I think these are sufficient for now.

Edit: Just remembered another important question. It looks to me from some of the sticky posts that maintenance fees are the same across similarly-sized point contracts. However, when looking at resale listings, I noticed the maintenance fees aren't always consistent. Are those just errors in the listings? Should I assume the tables in the sticky posts apply across the board, or are there indeed different maintenance fees for different contracts of the same size?


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## geist1223 (Jul 28, 2022)

We have been Worldmark Owners since August 2002. We have both resell and Developer Credits. The Developer Credits give us access to Wyndham South Pacific. In about 11 years we hwve made 4 trips DownUnder.

1. Yes. The highly desired resorts can be hard to Book.
2.Marina Dunes is one of the hard to Book Resorts. Both because of desirability and small number of Units.
3. Yes. Newer Resorts cost more Credits.
4. No. Credits are fixed when the Resort enters the Worldmark System.
5. The Credits do not formally rollover. No fees. It is simply that they are good for Booking for slightly over 24 months. For example Credits deposited into your Account on August 1, 2022 can be used to Book until August 31, 2024 and you can Book out 13 months so on August 31, 2024 you could make a Reservation starting September 30 2025. There are no fees to borrow.
6. No. Basically all Worldmark Accounts are the same and have the same access to the 90+ Worldmark Resorts. Additionally all Worldmark Accounts have the same access to the 3 cash options - Bonus Time, Inventory Specials, and Monday Madness. There are simply Developer Credits and Resell Credits. Prior to November 2006 there were WM+A Credits but all Resell Credits bought after November 2006 are simply Worldmark Credits.
7. There are +&- to having all your Credits in 1 Account and Multiple Accounts. 1 Account slightly lower Maintenance Fees. Multiple Accounts more Wait Lists, more Bonus Time. If you are going to combine a new resell purchase into an established Account do It at time of purchase so you only have 1 $299 fee. I have never tried to make 1 Booking drawing Credits from multiple Accounts so do not known it possible. Even if possible you would have to do it by telephone. You can transfer Credits from 1 Account to another Account for no fee. It can take a while. Use to be a day or two now longer. But there is a limit of 2X's number,of Credits in Account. You can also rent 1 time use Credits from other Owners.
8. You can pay to join RCI or II at anytime. If not using them you can simply not renew.
9. MF's are the same for the same sized Accounts. MF's are set in 2,500 Credit Blocks. For example but the Block might not be accurate a 10,000 Credit Account would have the same MF as a 12,499 Credit Account.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 28, 2022)

I recently acquired a WM very small account, 5K which is the smallest there is.  I did this because my plan was to primarily use it for Bonus Time, Monday Madness or Internet Special offerings, as there are plenty of those available where I live. You don't mention where you live, but obviously Western US is WM sweet spot, although did some inventory swaps Wyndham.  So some resorts are co-branded. 

So far I have done 2 MM bookings, 2 IS bookings and 1 BT booking.  Haven't used my points yet at all.  

I viewed it more of a pay as I go, but at a discounted rate method, rather than paying up front and having perhaps too many points that I was having to commit funds to.  For me BT, IS and even MM rates are cheaper rates than my MF rates, plus they include housekeeping credits, which would could add $$$.  Only downside, is they are subject to taxes (which point usage does not pay AFAIK but I would have to check that).


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## sun starved Gayle (Jul 28, 2022)

Geist1234 gave you some great information.

I have been a owner of a small WM since 2011. I mostly have used my account for bonus time and inventory specials to stretch my points. I also like to waitlist dates for 3-4 days in Hawaii locations to add on to our fixed week there. Waitlist is great, I have only had one time when I did not get my dates.

With the new non user friendly website, website glitches, poor customer service, and lengthy phone wait times, I would not recommend buying Worldmark right now. I am actually toying with the idea of selling even though I live in the Pacific Northwest where there are numerous Worldmarks within driving distance. I am that frustrated.

That said, Being able to book a few days at a location and not a full week is definitely a plus. With small children, you will soon be tied to a school schedule making it more difficult to book. Big competition for those dates.

I would consider a lockout somewhere as an alternative. you can split it and get two weeks out of it. Since you like Las Vegas, a resale Vegas might fit the bill for you. I have never stayed at a Vegas resort but I believe there are several with child friendly pools etc.

Take your time. Read everything you can and learn from others mistakes.

Also, it seems like more people think about selling at year’s end when maintenance fees on individual weeks come due.  You might find a better deal then.


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## Hobokie (Jul 28, 2022)

"we've enjoyed enough marketing stays to catch the timeshare bug, and we think it's definitely something that could improve our family vacations" --> relatable, haha!  I got this bug too and purchased both an HGV (Elara) and a WM (6k credits). 

A few others comments on your questions, @geist1223 did a great job answering this, this is my $0.0001 cents to add haha! 

2. Marina Dunes is not just a hard resort to book, it might be THE HARDEST resort to book of all (harder than Yellowstone, IMO)... I am a bit of a nut and an excel geek and I started making a crazy spreadsheet to see what % of rooms within a 13 month window.  Literally Marina Dunes will have ZERO availability ALWAYS.  That being said, the Waitlist feature for WM is AMAZING (see comment above from @sun starved Gayle).  I would say you should expect to never snag this yourself, but yes via the Waitlist or if you want to have a window open in the background of your pc and constantly hit refresh.  I have personally stayed there, btw, via a last minute Bonus Time booking.  These are gone in 3 min or less if it's a weekend. 

4. See my point above regarding the crazy excel I started making... there is lots of availability, you should be fine with some patience and the waitlist. 

5. Your comment around cost to borrow, save etc are coming from your knowledge of HGV.  In HGV you have to pay to save points, but it is free to borrow which is why people always find themselves wanting to borrow so they're not paying to save.  WM has no such thing, there are no fees for saving, but like @geist1223 said, you have to "park" your points in a reservation if they are expired, otherwise they disappear at the end of the day.  Parking points in a reservation is not an issue since there are no booking fees (HGV has booking fees except for Home Week, WM does not) and cancellation with WM is very generous (usually 30 days prior if far enough in advance, otherwise it's 2 weeks or even 2 days if you book something last minute).  

8. You can join RCI or II but dear god, please don't use "eplus" with II with Worldmark... Apparently RCI works just fine, but II is a nightmare!  This is more advanced stuff, but worth noting if you were looking to buy WM with the intent of trading a lot.  WM is a strong trader, but there are cheaper ways (without the mess of the eplus issue) to get a strong trader in II.  Like I said, this is advanced stuff, but here's the TLDR... eplus is an extra option you buy when trading with II so that you can change your mind and swap out an existing confirmed reservation for another.  I will NEVER do this again with a WM unit, they have a glitch in their system and will not recognize it as a swap, they will see it as a new reservation (you will therefore be double charged).  Weeks/months later and at least 10 calls later, you will still be struggling.  AVOID. 

By the way, comments around the new website are accurate (it is inferior to the old one), but since you won't know the difference, you might think it's just fine.  I've gotten used to it and now am ok with it. 

Going back to Marina Dunes/proximity to home... you might also consider Bass Lake (I loved this area so much that I bought a vacation home nearby LOL).  Also Angels Camp (been here, liked it!), Clear Lake (haven't been yet, but apparently this is THE PLACE for bass fishing), Windsor (near Sonoma, GREAT resort), etc... There's also a San Francisco resort, but it is definitely more of a hotel than a timeshare feel.  

Great luck!  Keep asking questions and congrats on rescinding!  Did you tell us how much you saved by rescinding?


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> 2.Marina Dunes is one of the hard to Book Resorts. Both because of desirability and small number of Units.



 Do you happen to have experience with this particular resort or know what "hard to book" means in that context? The reason I ask is that it really would be a major reason for considering this system. If hard to book means "July 4th gets booked right away but you have 2 weeks or 1 month to book other Summer weeks," that's actually not that bad, as I'd be looking to plan ahead. If hard to book means there are just way too many people trying to book there and it's like trying to win the lottery, I'd be much more hesitant to buy, or at least that would put it on more of an even playing field with other points systems.


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## Tacoma (Jul 28, 2022)

Marina Dunes is indeed one of the hardest to book WM units. There are only 33 units in a beachfront mid California location. I have a friend that wanted time there so I waitlisted 13 months out and still nothing came up. That said if it was for myself I would have put more waitlists on what I wanted accepting only one day if that came up and trying to peace a few days together. If you would consider oceanside (yes it's a longer drive) or Pismo Beach (a less desirable resort but with even less units) you would likely be less frustrated. As Sun Starved Gayle said the new website is beyond frustrating but WM is still the most flexible timeshare system I own with lots of resorts available for booking. Assuming in a few years you are tied into vacationing at school holiday times if you have to have beachfront during a prime summer week than you need to purchase that. If not and you learn the system and use the waitlist you can have some amazing vacations at a reasonable cost with WM.


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

@dboeger1 I've owned WM for more than five years, and it's a fine system, for "most" resorts. Marina Dunes isn't one of them.

I have never been able to book Marina Dunes as an open booking.  It books within seconds of the 13-month window opening. I have never seen time there just sitting in open inventory. There would be no "July 4th gets booked right away but *you have 2 weeks or 1 month to book other Summer weeks*,"  That availability just isn't there, and never will be, because EVERYBODY wants Marina Dunes. As @Tacoma says, a Waitlist entry at 13 months out never returned anything.  

If booking Marina Dunes is a major reason you'd want to buy WorldMark, don't do it. You are certain to be disappointed.

Dave


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## WManning (Jul 28, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> I recently acquired a WM very small account, 5K which is the smallest there is.  I did this because my plan was to primarily use it for Bonus Time, Monday Madness or Internet Special offerings, as there are plenty of those available where I live. You don't mention where you live, but obviously Western US is WM sweet spot, although did some inventory swaps Wyndham.  So some resorts are co-branded.
> 
> So far I have done 2 MM bookings, 2 IS bookings and 1 BT booking.  Haven't used my points yet at all.
> 
> I viewed it more of a pay as I go, but at a discounted rate method, rather than paying up front and having perhaps too many points that I was having to commit funds to.  For me BT, IS and even MM rates are cheaper rates than my MF rates, plus they include housekeeping credits, which would could add $$$.  Only downside, is they are subject to taxes (which point usage does not pay AFAIK but I would have to check that).


Sounds like a great way to travel without a big monthly maintenance fee. What was your cost and yearly Maintenance fee on this resale ownership?


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

WManning said:


> Sounds like a great way to travel without a big monthly maintenance fee. What was your cost and yearly Maintenance fee on this resale ownership?



2022 Maintenance Fees for a 5000 credit WorldMark account are $618.11. Purchase costs will vary, depending on how you buy it. Check eBay and WMowners.com for good ideas of resale costs.

Dave


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## VacationForever (Jul 28, 2022)

Before Wyndham tightened the screws on grouping a stay together, I was successful in booking a week in the summer, 3 days at Pismo Beach and followed by 4 days at Marina Dunes.  Now that they stop allowing 13+ reservation for any part of the properties in a group booking, it is certainly going to be interesting as to how we can get into Marina Dunes during summer.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 28, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> 2022 Maintenance Fees for a 5000 credit WorldMark account are $618.11. Purchase costs will vary, depending on how you buy it. Check eBay and WMowners.com for good ideas of resale costs.
> 
> Dave



Purchase price was $0, paid the $299 transfer, owner used 2800 of current years 5000.  I basically am paying MF on 2800 worth of points I did NOT get, but then again, I didn't pay anything for the membership. So it actually cost me about $350 plus the transfer fee.


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

Huh, that's unfortunate about Marina Dunes. There are a small number of other timeshares in the Monterey area, but none on a points system as far as I'm aware, and like I said, I don't see us buying into a specific resort until we know for sure we're staying in the area permanently, unless it's some place like Las Vegas where flying in is easy from just about anywhere. I'm wondering if Marina Dunes was just built at a time when the area was much cheaper, hence the very competitive 10k point cost. There seem to be quite a few WM properties with higher point costs in less prime locations, with fewer bedrooms, etc. I guess it's just one of those outliers for historical reasons. I can't imagine it would go for 10k if built today given how in-demand it apparently is.

Man, this is hard to figure out. Honestly, maybe we shouldn't be looking to commit to any timeshare until we have our 2nd kid. On the other hand, it's not like we're planning to forego vacations in the next few years, and it quickly feels like we're outgrowing hotels. We recently had a big post-lockdown family reunion (where everybody got COVID-19, but that's another story), and it really only happened because we booked multiple 2-bedroom units way in advance so relatives could come and go as they pleased. We loved having the kitchens, everybody together in large units, space to put the baby's playpen, a larger table to get work done on, etc. It's going to be hard going back to small hotel rooms (or very expensive large ones) after that. I know AirBnB is an option, but I've had very mixed experiences, so I don't consider it a viable long-term plan. We're definitely excited about the prospect of a timeshare for committing to annual family vacations with bigger, better accommodations, but it's a shame that Monterey, our closest destination, is not the easiest to get into.

I will say though, many of the other WM locations are doable. Bass Lake, Windsor, Tahoe, the SoCal destinations, etc., are all within driving distance, albeit not quite as convenient as Monterey for us (we live in San Jose). Maybe I was setting my expectations too high for proximity; to be fair, my father would drive multiple days to vacation destinations across the country when I was growing up, so I'm not opposed to road trips, but I was just hoping to have an option really close by as a fail-safe in case we have a crazy year and can't get very far for some reason. I guess something like WM isn't mutually exclusive with the occasionally weekend trip to Monterey, which could even be done during school years.

Definitely lots to think about.


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## jedimasterjem (Jul 28, 2022)

Im considering WM as well, this is great information, what do you guys think is a good starting credit 7K or 10K?


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> Huh, that's unfortunate about Marina Dunes. There are a small number of other timeshares in the Monterey area, but none on a points system as far as I'm aware,



Unfortunately, you've just hit on the reason Marina Dunes is so hard to book.  There are only 33 units owned by WorldMark at the resort.  (FWIW, the Marina Dunes location shares property with a 60-unit motel. A one bedroom at the Sanctuary Resort next door rents for over $600 per night.)  Those 33 WM units are in extremely high demand, for all the reasons you also would want to book one.  Monterey has huge demand as a tourist location.  

As you've likely already learned, location and availability are the two big factors in timesharing. Monterey is a high demand area, and Marina Dunes is one of the only timeshare games in town. Sadly, that means many WM owners will never be able to stay there.

Dave


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## Limace (Jul 28, 2022)

We also love staying in timeshare units-esp with kids-but one thing for you to consider in your tire kicking phase is just renting stays. I belong to a Worldmark rental group on Facebook, for instance, even though we don’t own WM, and there are daily reasonable offers for places to stay. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> Unfortunately, you've just hit on the reason Marina Dunes is so hard to book.  There are only 33 units owned by WorldMark at the resort.  (FWIW, the Marina Dunes location shares property with a 60-unit motel. A one bedroom at the Sanctuary Resort next door rents for over $600 per night.)  Those 33 WM units are in extremely high demand, for all the reasons you also would want to book one.  Monterey has huge demand as a tourist location.
> 
> As you've likely already learned, location and availability are the two big factors in timesharing. Monterey is a high demand area, and Marina Dunes is one of the only timeshare games in town. Sadly, that means many WM owners will never be able to stay there.
> 
> Dave



If I knew we were staying permanently in the region, I would probably just go ahead and buy a resale of one of the other resorts. I rented a decent room at the nearby Hilton Garden Inn within walking distance of the beach not long ago for something like $350 per night, so the maintenance fees on the resorts there are actually quite reasonable relative to hotel costs. My biggest issue is that it's not that close to a destination airport, so if we ever moved, we would probably just never go there. Even if we moved inland and wanted to go to a coastal beach, we'd just fly into some place like San Diego or Florida where beaches are easier to get to than from the Bay Area airports. It's mostly just desirable because we live so close and would like to go to the beach more often, but I guess we're hardly the only people in the Bay Area (or elsewhere) who think that. I suppose we could always try to get a cheap resale and then sell it if we ever moved, but I don't know that I want to play with fire on our 1st timeshare purchase. I'd rather get something we're fairly confident we would want to keep forever, or would be willing to sell opportunistically rather than as a fire sale.


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## VacationForever (Jul 28, 2022)

I bought a 10K Worldmark contract in 2013 and sold at end of 2017, when we bought more MVC weeks and points.  Both transactions were very painless.  We have always lamented about how we should not have sold it, but it was the correct decision at that time.  Fast forward, we still own Vistana and Marriott timeshare and we just bought a 35K Worldmark contact 2 weeks ago, awaiting transfer.  Worldmark is easy to buy and sell.  There are several established resale brokers.  If you are afraid that you are making the wrong decision in buying a Worldmark contract, getting out of it is just as easy.  It is not like some timeshare where you have to give it away for free and still can't find someone to take it.


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> If I knew we were staying permanently in the region, I would probably just go ahead and buy a resale of one of the other resorts. I rented a decent room at the nearby Hilton Garden Inn within walking distance of the beach not long ago for something like $350 per night, so the maintenance fees on the resorts there are actually quite reasonable relative to hotel costs. My biggest issue is that it's not that close to a destination airport, so if we ever moved, we would probably just never go there. Even if we moved inland and wanted to go to a coastal beach, we'd just fly into some place like San Diego or Florida where beaches are easier to get to than from the Bay Area airports. It's mostly just desirable because we live so close and would like to go to the beach more often, but I guess we're hardly the only people in the Bay Area (or elsewhere) who think that. I suppose we could always try to get a cheap resale and then sell it if we ever moved, but I don't know that I want to play with fire on our 1st timeshare purchase. I'd rather get something we're fairly confident we would want to keep forever, or would be willing to sell opportunistically rather than as a fire sale.



Keep in mind WorldMark maintenance fees are tied to the number of credits in your account - and everybody pays the same rates.  It is not tied to a particular resort location, as there are no underlying deeds.  The credits spent to book someplace are what they charge for that size unit.  10K credits is not unusual to book a week's stay in a 2 bedroom at any WM resort someplace.  At Marina Dunes, given the inflated costs in the area, it's an absolute bargain.

Rather than think of buying WM just so you can stay mainly at Marina Dunes, consider whether you'd want to stay at the other WM resorts.  There are more than 90 of them, and some are very nice.  Some are near National Parks, or high-demand vacation locations, like San Diego, Florida, and Las Vegas.  I just stayed at the brand new WM in Moab, Utah.  It's a great location, just a few minutes away from Arches and Canyonlands National Parks.   Want to take your growing kids to Disney?  Resorts in Anaheim. Yellowstone National Park?  WM Yellowstone is right outside the west entrance to the Park. New Orleans? There's a WM in the Garden District, right on the trolley line. 

The convenience of booking WorldMark is all about flexibility.  If your plans change, (as they will when you have kids to deal with), canceling or changing things is easily done. When you factor in the relatively inexpensive way you can buy WM, the trade power it carries if you wish to exchange it, the availability of locations in the western USA, and ease of selling it if you decide you're done with it, there aren't any other systems I know of that bring as much to the table.  You can spend far more, and get far less.

Dave


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> Keep in mind WorldMark maintenance fees are tied to the number of credits in your account - and everybody pays the same rates.  It is not tied to a particular resort location, as there are no underlying deeds.  The credits spent to book someplace are what they charge for that size unit.  10K credits is not unusual to book a week's stay in a 2 bedroom at any WM resort someplace.  At Marina Dunes, given the inflated costs in the area, it's an absolute bargain.
> 
> Rather than think of buying WM just so you can stay mainly at Marina Dunes, consider whether you'd want to stay at the other WM resorts.  There are more than 90 of them, and some are very nice.  Some are near National Parks, or high-demand vacation locations, like San Diego, Florida, and Las Vegas.  I just stayed at the brand new WM in Moab, Utah.  It's a great location, just a few minutes away from Arches and Canyonlands National Parks.   Want to take your growing kids to Disney?  Resorts in Anaheim. Yellowstone National Park?  WM Yellowstone is right outside the west entrance to the Park. New Orleans? There's a WM in the Garden District, right on the trolley line.
> 
> ...



Absolutely, we would almost certainly take advantage of other locations. Las Vegas is an obvious one, and we've never been to Yellowstone. I also have family in the Kansas City area so we would almost certainly go to the Ozarks at some point. I was definitely impressed with the selection. The reason I singled out Marina Dunes was that if it was easy to book, there'd be almost no other system that would offer it. Without that as a realistic option to count on, there are other systems with arguably nicer resorts in destinations we visit. However, there's definitely value in the simplicity and flexibility of WorldMark points, and there do seem to be more CA destinations overall than systems like Marriott and Hilton. It looks like Wyndham also has a large footprint, but I was a bit put off by many of the complexities regarding the points, although I did only do a bit of research on that system and have yet to ask clarifying questions in the associated forum. From what I've heard about WM so far, it sounds like a great beginner option which we can expand upon with more points later or just add on a specific resort we like in the future as we plan for more vacations.

One other question that comes to mind now: How easy is it to book WM Hawaii destinations, and are they any good? I know one of the criticisms of points systems is that when it comes to hot destinations like Hawaii, the salespeople often greatly exaggerate how much availability there actually is. I was actually mostly ignoring Hawaii for the purposes of this search, but we do very much want to go to Hawaii. Just checking their online resort map, it looks like they have a good selection except for no Oahu unless you exchange, which is not necessarily a deal breaker for us as long as we can actually manage to book the other ones 13 months out.


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## geist1223 (Jul 28, 2022)

About 20 years ago we started with a small 6,000 Credit Account. We now own 97,000 Credits. Some resell. Some Developer Credits. We are currently at The Canadian in Downtown Vancouver BC. This past May we toke a Road Trip: Salem to Reno (1 night) to St. George (1 week) to Santa Fe (1 week) to St George (1 night) to Reno (2 nights) to Salem.

For the Winter time we switch off between San Jose del Cabo and Hawaii. 

As far as we are concerned the only advantage to Developer Credits is access to Wyndham South Pacific. We have made 4 trips Down Under in the past 11 years. Now Wyndham South Pacific has at least 3 Resorts in Europe (France [Normandy], Germany [Bavaria], and Italy [Tuscany].


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## geist1223 (Jul 28, 2022)

We have been able to Book Hawaii every time we have tried. The Wait List is a wonderful thing. Once we only had about 2 months notice that my nephew was getting married on Maui. I went on line was was able to snag 3 days of the week right away and did a Wait List for the week (1 or more days). Slowly days became available. About 10 days before the Wedding we had pieced together 6 of the 7 days. We just did not have the Wedding Day. It  was an evening Wedding. We figured we would stay at the Reception until they threw us out and then sleep on the Beach. Then the last day filled in. So we had a 7 days stay at Kihei. They combined the 4 separate Reservations into 1 and we got House Keeping Tokens restored.


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

I just thought of another important question. It sounds like there is some protection from "overbooking" as @geist1223 's reply suggests the points are created and fixed upon bringing in a new resort. However, I'm wondering, since this is a non-deeded vacation club, is there any protection in the ownership structure against the club itself going under? I was reading in some of the general TUG articles that direct ownership of the real estate through something like a trust provides protection in case the club company itself goes under. Not that I'm super worried about an established player like WorldMark going under, but what's to stop them from doing nefarious things like doubling point costs, removing resorts, etc.?


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## Hobokie (Jul 28, 2022)

@dboeger1 , I live in San Jose also, but I guess I don't mind the 3 hour drives to Bass Lake, Angels Camp, Windsor (Sonoma), etc   I am the "cool friend" now too because I do getaways with my girlfriends and I've gone from being "the crazy timeshare friend" to the one they call for "vacation advice" (READ: they subtly ask me if I can book Inventory Specials or Monday Madness for them haha!) 

You are asking good questions, I wish you luck on your timeshare learning journey


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## Hobokie (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> One other question that comes to mind now: How easy is it to book WM Hawaii destinations, and are they any good?


I have not stayed in WM Hawaii, but for some reason there isn't a ton of hype on the WM Hawaii properties.  But this might be because of the locations for the WM Hawaii properties or the fact that it is the Marriotts in Hawaii that get all of the hype.  I have seen some folks here feel underwhelmed with WM Hawaii and yet others have said it's good enough.  Food for thought, I'm sure others will comment on this.


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## geist1223 (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> I just thought of another important question. It sounds like there is some protection from "overbooking" as @geist1223 's reply suggests the points are created and fixed upon bringing in a new resort. However, I'm wondering, since this is a non-deeded vacation club, is there any protection in the ownership structure against the club itself going under? I was reading in some of the general TUG articles that direct ownership of the real estate through something like a trust provides protection in case the club company itself goes under. Not that I'm super worried about an established player like WorldMark going under, but what's to stop them from doing nefarious things like doubling point costs, removing resorts, etc.?



They simply can not. But that kind of thinking is like: "We could be in a car accident driving to ************. So you don't go.


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> @dboeger1 , I live in San Jose also, but I guess I don't mind the 3 hour drives to Bass Lake, Angels Camp, Windsor (Sonoma), etc   I am the "cool friend" now too because I do getaways with my girlfriends and I've gone from being "the crazy timeshare friend" to the one they call for "vacation advice" (READ: they subtly ask me if I can book Inventory Specials or Monday Madness for them haha!)
> 
> You are asking good questions, I wish you luck on your timeshare learning journey



That is awesome! I love the idea of being able to invite friends and family on vacation. I've noticed that as the years have gone by and we've gotten more geographically dispersed, it has gotten harder and harder to convince people to put in the effort to committing to see each other. That being said, I really don't want to just never see family again, and we are in an increasingly secure financial position, so part of me just wants to be like, "Hey, we have points to book more units, if you want to come, come, if not, we'll invite someone else." That's kind of what we did with our short-lived DRI sampler package, and it worked. I don't know how comfortable most families are with sending their kids on vacation with another family, but I know when I was growing up, my siblings and I shared a number of trips with school friends, and those were always good experiences, so I think it would be awesome for our daughter to be able to invite her best friend(s) on Summer vacations with us. Having to price-shop hotels, split costs with people, etc. is just a drag. I mean, if it came to that, I would keep doing it, and have done it in the past, but I'm just really drawn to this whole idea of setting a vacation budget, having some nice fixed options, and making the best of it.


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## VacationForever (Jul 28, 2022)

The club points have underlying deeds that are in the trust.  You own a portion of it when you buy Worldmark credits.


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> One other question that comes to mind now: How easy is it to book WM Hawaii destinations, and are they any good?



I currently have two weeks booked next month with WM Hawaii resorts (Kona and Kihei) as a back-to-back thing. I booked them last year at the 13-month mark, simply by being in front of my computer when the booking window opened up.  I booked the first week, then a week later I booked the second week.  Easy breezy.  It is one of the tricks of booking high-demand places like Hawaii - being there and ready to grab it when the window opens.  Less demand places are easier to book more randomly.  But Hawaii is a demand destination, so you have to be ready to grab it when you can.

The Hawaii resorts (Big Island, Maui, and Kauai) are nice, but not over the top.  None of the WM resorts are what I'd call over the top.  But they're clean, nicely run and a great place to stay.  Of the three islands, I'd say Kauai would be the least one to book.  The resort is very modest, has no air condiitoning, and is the most motel-like.  But its location is central to the eastern side of the island, and makes a great launching pad for visiting either the north or south sides of Kauai.  However you want to slice it, they're easier to book than Marina Dunes.  

Dave


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> I have not stayed in WM Hawaii, but for some reason there isn't a ton of hype on the WM Hawaii properties.  But this might be because of the locations for the WM Hawaii properties or the fact that it is the Marriotts in Hawaii that get all of the hype.  I have seen some folks here feel underwhelmed with WM Hawaii and yet others have said it's good enough.  Food for thought, I'm sure others will comment on this.



Honestly, I think I'm okay with that. Would I like a nicer resort? Sure. But I want to be able to book them, first and foremost. And Hawaii is for the nature in my opinion (at least that's my understanding; we haven't been yet so my mind could be changed). For luxury accommodations, I think I would prefer Las Vegas anyway. I think the values are just better there, and we spend more time indoors there anyway. I could see adding a higher-end Las Vegas resort in the future if we decided the typical points-based options there weren't fancy enough for us. But that would definitely be years down the line depending on many variables.


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> That is awesome! I love the idea of being able to invite friends and family on vacation.



Many WM two bedroom units sleep 8 people, so depending on how much privacy some need (thinking adults vs. kids) you may not even need to book multiple units.

Dave


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## DaveNV (Jul 28, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> Honestly, I think I'm okay with that. Would I like a nicer resort? Sure. But I want to be able to book them, first and foremost. And Hawaii is for the nature in my opinion (at least that's my understanding; we haven't been yet so my mind could be changed). For luxury accommodations, I think I would prefer Las Vegas anyway. I think the values are just better there, and we spend more time indoors there anyway. I could see adding a higher-end Las Vegas resort in the future if we decided the typical points-based options there weren't fancy enough for us. But that would definitely be years down the line depending on many variables.



It boils down to what you want from the resort.  If you want the convenience of it being a timeshare (e.g. kitchen, laundry, multiple bathrooms and bedrooms), in a good location, and a great place from which to head out to see the area, then every WM resort will serve you well.  If you want to hang around a resort's lazy river pool all day and be entertained by resort staff with kid activities and movie nights - well, then WM may not be the best first choice.  Personally, I can lay by the pool in my backyard.  When I go on vacation, it's to see and enjoy the location I'm visiting.  It's about the area, the people, and the culture, not ice cream socials or scavenger hunts in the parking lot.

Dave


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## ski_sierra (Jul 28, 2022)

It took me two years to get a reservation at Marina Dunes. In the meantime, I got reservations at many other amazing properties like Westin Ka'anapali, Hilton Kings' Land, Hilton Marbrisa, Hyatt Northstar (ski season), Hyatt Sierra Lodge (summer), Hyatt Carmel, Marriott Timber Lodge. I believe all of these properties are better than Marina Dunes and easier to book (yes, they also cost at least twice as much for a week compared to booking Marina Dunes).

I have been able to book the WM Hawaii properties many times as well, but I have only stayed at WM Kihei, other trips were canceled. My daughter and wife said they would rather stay home than stay at that property, partly because we stayed there after Westing Ka'anapali and Hilton Kings' Land.



dboeger1 said:


> The biggest differentiator is the Marina Dunes resort near Monterey, which is a beach destination within driving distance of where we live. There are also not very many timeshare resorts in the area.


Hyatt Carmel Highlands is fabulous. There are a couple of others like Pine Acres Lodge and Pacific Grove Plaza. If you live within driving distance, you should look into these for bonus time. All of them are in a nicer area than Marina Dunes.

If you love the Monterey area, I recommend picking up a Hyatt points resort like Hyatt Sedona. Then you can book Hyatt Carmel Highlands. It is not difficult to book. It's also in a much more upscale area compared to Marina Dunes. You will find drug addicts next to the Marina Dunes property and there is an RV park on the other side of the road. We were scared to walk around.

When I had a reservation at Marina Dunes, I was hoping to book another room for friends who wanted to join us. The Country Inn is the closest hotel (other than Sanctuary, which charges $800/night). You can see the comments about how bad that location is on TripAdvisor.








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There are many great WM properties other than Marina Dunes. None of them come anything close to what Hyatt offers, but they are great options. My daughter's favorite WM property is Reunion in Orlando. It is like staying in a country club. A huge three-bedroom unit, water park, access to beautiful clubhouses, and plenty of other activities.

If you are buying WM to book Marina Dunes, I think that's risky. But if you would like to primarily stay at other WM properties, and think of winning the lottery ticket once in a while with a Marina Dunes reservation, then your chances of being happy are high.


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## ski_sierra (Jul 28, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> I have not stayed in WM Hawaii, but for some reason there isn't a ton of hype on the WM Hawaii properties. But this might be because of the locations for the WM Hawaii properties or the fact that it is the Marriotts in Hawaii that get all of the hype. I have seen some folks here feel underwhelmed with WM Hawaii and yet others have said it's good enough



WM has four properties in Hawaii: 

The Kihei property is old and run down. Most of the units have mold, from what I have read and in the unit I stayed in. Kihei in general is not as nice as Ka'anapali or Wailea. 
The beach near Valley Isle is mostly gone. There is no AC. It has an ocean view though.
WM Kauai is motel-like with no AC.
WM Big Island in Kona is near downtown. Big Island is an affordable island and you can find Airbnbs there for not much more than maintenance dues of WM if you plan in advance (usually WM Kona also needs to be booked 13 months in advance).
I think these properties are perfect for people who go to Hawaii for all the outdoor activities. But many WM owners who travel with kids (like us), end up spending more time at the property than groups of young adults. I'd rather pay the premium of the Marriott and Hilton properties in Hawaii.


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## ski_sierra (Jul 28, 2022)

accidentally reposted


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## dboeger1 (Jul 28, 2022)

ski_sierra said:


> It took me two years to get a reservation at Marina Dunes. In the meantime, I got reservations at many other amazing properties like Westin Ka'anapali, Hilton Kings' Land, Hilton Marbrisa, Hyatt Northstar (ski season), Hyatt Sierra Lodge (summer), Hyatt Carmel, Marriott Timber Lodge. I believe all of these properties are better than Marina Dunes and easier to book (yes, they also cost at least twice as much for a week compared to booking Marina Dunes).
> 
> I have been able to book the WM Hawaii properties many times as well, but I have only stayed at WM Kihei, other trips were canceled. My daughter and wife said they would rather stay home than stay at that property, partly because we stayed there after Westing Ka'anapali and Hilton Kings' Land.
> 
> ...



Thanks for providing your detailed experience! It's not even so much that Monterey itself is a dream destination for us, just that we happen to live close by. We can actually go just about any weekend. The reason we don't, as is often the case with locals visiting nearby tourist destinations, is that it's about a 90-minute drive each way in good traffic (definitely can be longer in bad traffic), and it's hard to justify the cost of hotels when we live nearby. So a couple of times per year, we drive down there early in the morning, spend most of the day walking/driving between points of interest along the coast, try out a restaurant or two, and then head back in the afternoon/evening. If we want to do something more substantial like a long hike, swimming in the ocean, the aquarium, etc., it really eats into the time we get to spend doing other things. One time, we decided to do a weekend trip staying in a hotel for 1 or 2 nights (can't remember exactly), and it opened up more possibilities for enjoying the local area at a more leisurely pace. We got to do things we don't normally do like wake up in time to see the sunrise, visit some more unique shops downtown, hike up the hills/ridges on the East side of town, check out prime oceanfront real estate, etc. We used to scoff at the idea of paying for a hotel (especially an expensive one) within driving distance of our home, but that trip kind of made me realize that trying to cram everything into a full day is the reason why we only go to the beach a couple times annually, despite living 90 minutes away.

Now, if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think Monterey holds a candle to SoCal beaches as a week-long resort destination. There are some nice little towns there, and the views are absolutely stunning, but there's no comparing the swimming, and I also think there's a distinct lack of beachside restaurants, clubs, activities, events, etc. It's mostly very sleepy residential stuff. If I had a few million dollars to burn, I might just live in one of those oceanfront houses. It has its charm, but I think there's more to do near the beaches in places like Santa Barbara, Pismo, San Diego, etc. Here in the Bay Area, I'd say Santa Cruz is a bit more exciting, but I just find the accommodations really lacking and overpriced. Santa Cruz makes for an excellent day trip or a stop along Highway 1, but I just haven't found any compelling reasons to stay overnight. It's also closer to our home, so I'm even less inclined to book a hotel there.


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## ski_sierra (Jul 29, 2022)

dboeger1 said:


> Thanks for providing your detailed experience! It's not even so much that Monterey itself is a dream destination for us, just that we happen to live close by.



Monterey is a dream destination for me, but Marina Dunes is not. I believe Monterey has the best weather on the planet, and I would love to retire there.

That's why I invested in a Hyatt timeshare so I can book the Carmel property and visit that area frequently. 




dboeger1 said:


> t think Monterey holds a candle to SoCal beaches as a week-long resort destination. There are some nice little towns there, and the views are absolutely stunning, but there's no comparing the swimming, and I also think there's a distinct lack of beachside restaurants, clubs, activities, events, etc. It's mostly very sleepy residential stuff. If I had a few million dollars to burn, I might just live in one of those oceanfront houses. It has its charm, but I think there's more to do near the beaches in places like Santa Barbara, Pismo, San Diego, etc. Here in the Bay Area, I'd say Santa Cruz is a bit more exciting, but I just find the accommodations really lacking and overpriced. Santa Cruz makes for an excellent day trip or a stop along Highway 1, but I just haven't found any compelling reasons to stay overnight. It's also closer to our home, so I'm even less inclined to book a hotel there.




There is no question that the quality of accommodations & resorts in California is not as great as what you can find in Florida or Mexico. And their beaches are better too. The Reunion property is perhaps the best resort in the WM portfolio, and I could book it two weeks in advance for a spring break trip. There is just too much supply in FL. Marina Dunes needs to be booked within one second of the inventory becoming available to book. And then 100s are clicking with you, so you can never be sure if you will get the reservation. But I'm 100% confident that I can get Reunion for Christmas, winter break, or spring break. Reunion is 17k credits for a 3 BR per week with the water park included. Booking Marina Dunes will cost you around $200 extra in taxes along with 10k credits.   

It's great to get a reservation at Marina Dunes but it doesn't greatly increase or decrease my satisfaction with WM.


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## dboeger1 (Jul 29, 2022)

ski_sierra said:


> Monterey is a dream destination for me, but Marina Dunes is not. I believe Monterey has the best weather on the planet, and I would love to retire there.
> 
> That's why I invested in a Hyatt timeshare so I can book the Carmel property and visit that area frequently.
> 
> ...



You know what else Monterey (or more specifically Pacific Grove) has the best of? Squirrels. They are the highlight of our trip every time we go to Lover's Point. They're always a hoot to watch, but the first time we went happened to be when they were suuuuuper fat. Fattest dang squirrels I've ever seen, hundreds of them just popping up from underneath the rocks in that little park, begging for all the visitors to drop some goodies. They've never been quite as fat on our other trips, so I think you need to go during a certain time of year. In fact, if there's any reason for me to go back there more often, it's not the beach, it's to check up on the hordes of mega squirrels and keep track of their weight gain. They looked more like small gophers.


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## SteelerGal (Jul 29, 2022)

I think WM would definitely work.  We started w/ renting from a family friend who own WM and continue to this day.  Tend to stay in SoCal WM/Wyndham properties.  we are SoCal, our home resort is HGVC in Carlsbad or Marriotts in Palm Desert.  Since we are a family of 7, we like the larger accommodations.  We just returned from Lake Tahoe and stayed at the Hyatt there.  We are hooked and will be going there every other year hopefully.
Although we do own in a HGVC property inVegas, we only use it for points to travel to other HGVC properties.
We travel to Monterey annually for racing and still have not stayed at Marina Dunes.  Love the area but hate to pay the hotel prices especially when you are rarely in the room.  We may eventually add an Independent or just continue to stay in a hotel.  
The thing about TS,if you enjoy it, it won’t be unusual to own more than one System.


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## exyeh (Jul 29, 2022)

Regarding to the e-plus retrade and cancel in 24 hr:" I will NEVER do this again with a WM unit, they have a glitch in their system and will not recognize it as a swap, they will see it as a new reservation "
I don't think it is a glitch, It was not used to be this way.  You are at the mercy of the person who is manually refund the credits/cash to you. and they follow the guild wm wants.


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## DaveNV (Jul 29, 2022)

exyeh said:


> Regarding to the e-plus retrade and cancel in 24 hr:" I will NEVER do this again with a WM unit, they have a glitch in their system and will not recognize it as a swap, they will see it as a new reservation "
> I don't think it is a glitch, It was not used to be this way.  You are at the mercy of the person who is manually refund the credits/cash to you. and they follow the guild wm wants.




I made the same mistake.  Will never use ePlus with WorldMark again. Took months to finally get it sorted out, and they still owe me credits I doubt I'll ever see.

Dave


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## exyeh (Jul 30, 2022)

Just this year, an owner care guy worked on my retrade case (be careful, the 24 hr cancel policy is the same case), since it is so hard to get back the credits, he said he would suggest to wm to straight out this problem at two points of time, he never mentioned it again. He knew what he is dealing with afterwards.


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