# Beware of the Hidden Dangers within the DC Explorer Collection!



## FractionalTraveler (Apr 12, 2012)

Using your DC points for Timeshare and Hotel stays is a relatively safe and transparent process.

But using your DC points in the *Explorer Collection* could be a dangerous expedition for your points!

Why?  Well many of the Explorer Collection Point Options utilize negotiated agreements with other third-party vendors not affiliated with Marriott.

So you say why is this an issue?  Well let me explain some of my research on this topic.

First off you need to understand that Marriott uses a very crafty way of tracking all of their legal disclaimers.  Those little alpha-numeric codes that appear below most of the web pages where any sort of terms and conditions are stated.

For example, Marriott's first disclaimer regarding their relationship with third-part vendors is as follows:

_"Marriott International, Inc., Marriott Vacation Club International and their respective affiliates and subsidiaries, make no warranty, express or implied, as to the condition, capacity, performance or any other aspect of the activities, events, or service providers listed herein. No inquiry has been made into the activities or events, or the qualifications or the quality of services offered by the providers. Do not consider this an endorsement of or recommendation for any of the activities, events, or providers. Features, furnishings and amenities may be proposed and are subject to change."_

This is a general disclaimer so the code is: *MG-11-031*

Now lets look at part of their disclaimer for the Ocean Explorer with Cruise Vendors, Code: *MDC-11-043*

_"*Not every cruise line, cabin or sailing is offered through this program. *Tier ratings are subjectively based on relative value of specific tours in the program, comprised of a combination of factors including cruise line, destination, stateroom type, departure date, etc.* *Cruise prices are in Vacation Club Points, based on double occupancy per stateroom.* *Taxes and port fees are additional, and cannot be paid in Vacation Club Points. Vacation Club Point values are subject to change without notice. Other restrictions may apply.*

Cancellation Policy: *For cancellations made with Marriott Vacation Club's Owner Services department at least (90) days **in advance of the sailing date*, *or more than 125 days for Regent Seven Seas or Viking Cruises*, *you will receive your Vacation Club Points back into your account without penalty.* For trips cancelled less than (90) days prior to sailing date or less than 125 days for Regent Seven Seas or Viking Cruises, cancellations are at the discretion of the cruise company and may result in a credit toward future cruises from the cruise line. *However, all applied Vacation Club Points will be forfeited.* If cancellation windows differ, as when cancellation periods or penalties exceed these stated timeframes herein, such cruise line cancellation policies will be disclosed at time of booking."_

So for cruises, you have to cancel either 3 or 4.25 months before or else you may be out of luck with all of your points.

Well you may say that is why I purchased the CSA Travel Insurance for? right?  Well, I have news in that camp that may be disturbing to those that forked over hundred of dollars for these policies.  More on that later.

The Epic Explorer (Guided Tours) offered by Collette Vacations Vendor has their disclaimer as follows:

Travel Services Purchased Using Marriott Vacation Club Points:
o	More than 60 days prior to departure: Your Vacation Club Points will be refunded to your account.
o	*60 days or fewer prior to departure: All Vacation Club Points for this tour are forfeited.*
Upon cancellation of transportation or travel services where you, the customer, are not at fault and have not cancelled in violation of the terms and conditions above, you will be refunded 100%.

For the Active Explorer (Golf) Stay & Play Packages disclaimer code: *MDC-12-090* the following applies:

Cancellation Policy: For cancellations made with Marriott Vacation Club's Owner Services department more than sixty (60) days from check-in, you will receive your Vacation Club Points back into your account. For trips cancelled less than sixty (60) days but greater than twenty-one (21) days from check-in, your Vacation Club Points will be placed in a holding account. *For trips cancelled less than twenty-one (21) days from check-in, all applied Vacation Club Points will be forfeited.* If cancellation windows differ, as when cancellation periods or penalties exceed these stated timeframes herein, such package cancellation policies will be disclosed at time of booking.

For Hilton Head Golf Packages the disclaimer code is: *MDC-12-096*

Cancellation Policy: *Once purchases are completed and a confirmation has been sent, these transactions may not be cancelled and you will not be able to get a refund of applied Vacation Club Points.*

For Golf Certificates disclaimer code is: *MDC-12-096*

*Once Golf Certificates are ordered, you are ineligible for a refund of applied Vacation Club Points.* Additionally, in accordance with the golf club's site specific reservation policy, a credit card may be required to reserve your tee time. A full retail rate cancellation/no show fee may be applied in accordance with the golf club's site specific cancellation policy. Please inquire with the golf club for site specific reservation and cancellation policies

For Premier Events:

*Please note that once a package is booked points will be deducted from your account, and you will receive a confirmation number; at this point, no cancellations will be allowed for any reason.*

For Luxury Residences disclaimer code: *DC-11-048*

Reservation Rules: Owners may request a reservation of three (3) consecutive nights or longer, based on availability, up to six months in advance of desired date of arrival. Reservations of any length will be permitted within sixty (60) days of desired arrival, based on availability. This program is ONLY offered to Owners who currently hold Premier or Premier PLUS status with The Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Program. *Cancellations or changes will incur the following penalties associated with their reservation: - 61 days or greater before scheduled arrival: All points refunded. - 60 days or fewer before scheduled arrival: Points refunded as Holding Points.* Pursuant to Exchange Procedures, offers, benefits and eligibility criteria to be a Premier or Premier Plus owner are subject to change. 

So there you have it.  Now back to the CSA Travel Insurance Issue.

I spoke to CSA at length earlier this month and what I found out was frankly the equivalent of a backyard Heist.

I know this has been discussed in other threads but I feel its important enough to restate to others who may be interested in this product.

1. CSA Insurance does NOT cover anything purchased with DC Points!
2. CSA provides for an optional SUPPLIMENTARY coverage.  NOT Primary!
3. CSA covers your OPERATING and EXCHANGE fees ONLY!

So, if you are using the DC Explorer Collection to book anything other than Timeshares or Hotels which Marriott Has direct control over, PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH YOUR PURCHASES.

No one wants to loose their hard earned and paid for points on legal technicalities with non-marriott affiliated products or services!


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## Quilter (Apr 13, 2012)

Thank you FT.   This took you quite a bit of time to compile and I appreciate that.   

It sent me to logging in to my-vacationclub just to see what types of tours were offered.   At a bare minimum of 4000 DC points per couple these packages are expensive.   I did some quick brain math to compare with a tour package I'm working on for an 8 day Alaskan trip for the 4 of us and concluded I wouldn't find such a good package through the Explorer Collection.   

I also looked at the Provence and Italy packages just to compare to a couple trips we already did.   Not impressed.   Then I googled Collette Tour reviews and it just made me wonder why Marriott chose them to partner with the DC.   AAA uses Tauck Tours.

The part about the CSA will make me ask lots of questions for future trips.   

Thank you again for taking the time to write this post.


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## cbdmvci (Apr 13, 2012)

I have yet to find an Explorer offering that makes DC points sense.  Generally, they amount to a 30% to 40% premium over just going to the travel, cruise, and/or tour company(ies) directly and paying cash.

Can anyone give me an example of an Explorer offering that they have successfully bought with DC points that represented a savings over cash for the same trip/vacation?

For convenience's sake, use a common DC points rental value of $.50 per point.


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## KathyPet (Apr 13, 2012)

I have looked at several of these and they certainly are no bargain price wise when you look at the number of points they want.    You are paying a heavy premiums for the privilege of using your points rather than paying cash.  THe recent cruise is a good example.  7500 points at .50 per point is $3750.00.  I am making a assumption that the cabin level is a standard cabin.  I can do a lot better by booking this cruise on my own and paying cash.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 13, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I have yet to find an Explorer offering that makes DC points sense.  Generally, they amount to a 30% to 40% premium over just going to the travel, cruise, and/or tour company(ies) directly and paying cash.
> 
> Can anyone give me an example of an Explorer offering that they have successfully bought with DC points that represented a savings over cash for the same trip/vacation?
> 
> For convenience's sake, use a common DC points rental value of $.50 per point.



cbdmvci, I agree with you 100% without even needing to see the numbers.

The problem I think most consumers have with this argument is not a financial one but more of a pragmatic issue.  Hear is an example for discussion purposes:

Consumer X has invested lets say $50K of their hard earned money into the MVCI and now the DC program.  And they pay yearly maintenance fees of lets say another $5K to maintain their privledges.

Now they have lets say 13K of yearly destination club points for their $50K investment which makes Consumer X a Premier Plus owner.

Here is the point I want to make regarding Consumer X:

Consumer X is not easily motivated to spend additional dollars on Vacations when he/she has to mentally justify why not just use the DC system to achieve the same thing without any further out-of-pocket expense?

Consumer X may even understand he is getting ripped off royally with his points allocation and usage option but at the end of the day Consumer X rationalizes his DC usage by constantly repeating to himself that he doesn't have to spend more to get essentially the same thing.  He already bought it!

So, in theory and in financial respects, yes the argument that you can always find it cheaper elsewhere without using your DC points is very VALID.

But in practical terms, we all don't have unlimited funding or unlimited time to allocate to vacations, so what we do as educated consumers is allocate only a certain amount of reasonable funding based upon our current situation for vacations each year.

If Consumer X believes he has paid for this already into the MVCI DC system, then he will have the tendency to use that prior to electing the use of additional expenditures.

Its sound like more to do with Human intuition than the use of rational, fiscal, and sound financial decision making on the part of Consumer X.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 13, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> cbdmvci, I agree with you 100% without even needing to see the numbers.
> 
> The problem I think most consumers have with this argument is not a financial one but more of a pragmatic issue.  Hear is an example for discussion purposes:
> 
> ...






Fractional Traveler;  Well said !




.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 13, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> cbdmvci, I agree with you 100% without even needing to see the numbers.
> 
> The problem I think most consumers have with this argument is not a financial one but more of a pragmatic issue.  Hear is an example for discussion purposes:
> 
> ...



As much as this line of thinking goes against the prevalent TUG mantra of "always spend/invest as little as possible to go where you want to go," it's my way of thinking.  I have no problem with using whatever I already own to get to where I want to go.

+1 on the 'Well said!"


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## cbdmvci (Apr 13, 2012)

Sorry, I don’t buy the “sunk cost” argument: I already own it; I might as well use it.

The return on your sunk cost dollars plummets as you move down from…

1. using at your home resort
to
2. trading your week through II
to
3. using DC points to reserve
to
4. using DC points for just about any Explorer Collection.

And the difference between 3 and 4 is the most dramatic drop of all, by far!
IMO, it makes no sense to use DC points that way.

If, for example, I want to vacation the second week in February 2013:
1. I can stay a week in my 2 bedroom BPT for my maintenance fees of $1110 … or $158 per night.
2. or I can trade for the same $158 per night.
3. or I can use DC points and go to a 2 bedroom in Orlando for 3075 DC points at  … or $219 or night
4. or I can use the Explorer Collection for just a hotel room at Bohemiam Celebration at 675 points … or $338 per night.
5. or I can go on hotels.com and buy that same Bohemiam room for $199 per night.

So there's the range.  At my  home resort, I am paying $158 per night for a suite that would rent for around $400 per night.  (That certainly helps alleviate any developer buyer remorse.)  But using the Explorer Collection, I am paying $338 per night for a room I can rent for $199 per night: a premium of nearly 70%  That premium is found throughout the Explorer Collection.

No matter what I look at, the Explorer Collection is always the worse way by far to use your sunk MVCI dollars.


And … the Explorer Collection as a “selling point” for buying DC points is absolutely laughable.  "Here, give me $10,000, and I'll give you the right to go buy a vacation for a 50% premium over what you could buy it for for cash."


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## Quilter (Apr 13, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> cbdmvci, I agree with you 100% without even needing to see the numbers.
> 
> The problem I think most consumers have with this argument is not a financial one but more of a pragmatic issue.  Hear is an example for discussion purposes:
> 
> ...



I guess I don't fall into the above Consumer X.   We have 7 weeks, pay $8K+ in m/f's and can elect 28,575 DC points a year.  Even so, I do not feel I have an unlimited amount of vacation dollars to spend without much consideration.    I also hate being trapped in an uncomfortable situation.   I won't book what I feel is a crappy itinerary just because I've already alloted a certain amount of vacation dollars towards vacationing.   I will try to recoup the spent vacation $$ with rentals and redirect the funds to what I actually want to do.   If I don't like the value and level of expectation I will do without the trip.  

It's my opinion that if my home resort can't give me a room location with a reasonable expectation of comfort and enjoyment from that room (i.e., crummy room location), please call and tell me before I pack my bags and I can just stay home or go someplace else if I can find a renter or an exchange.   There are so-o-o-o many other options.


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## jimf41 (Apr 13, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I have yet to find an Explorer offering that makes DC points sense.  Generally, they amount to a 30% to 40% premium over just going to the travel, cruise, and/or tour company(ies) directly and paying cash.
> 
> Can anyone give me an example of an Explorer offering that they have successfully bought with DC points that represented a savings over cash for the same trip/vacation?
> 
> For convenience's sake, use a common DC points rental value of $.50 per point.



Using $.50 for the value of a point skews all the numbers in your argument. I routinely convert my Ocean Pointe weeks to DC points at $.31, .32 and .36 per point in relation to MFs. Not many resort weeks cost $.50 per point.

As far as the cash savings of using DC points the only experience I have is with the Africa trip. Using DC points for that trip was a significant savings over purchasing direct from the tour company. But like QUILTER I checked in to Collette Tours and didn't like what I saw. That ended my interest in the Explorer Collection until I get some positive feedback from a Tugger or someone I know that's actually used them.


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## Quilter (Apr 13, 2012)

jim,   I have been working on an Alaskan trip.   I knew nothing about traveling to Alaska when I began.   I Looked at many tour packages and finally called one that said they would customize the trip.   When I told the agent what I was looking for she suggested I should call a booking agent.   News to me.  She sounded very honest and upfront with me so I asked if she could recommend a couple.   She gave me the names of 2.   The first one I called was also very helpful and has reworked an itinerary a couple time to match what we're looking for.   She even did a comparison of their tour with a Tauck tour for the same amount of days.   In the end, the package we're booking is within the range of packages I was seeing online with the increase in price reflected by the level of accommodations and a hand-picked selection of activities.      

I tell you this FYI so you might look into doing the same for an African trip.   My nieces' husband has taken people to Africa for hunting and may be able to help direct you.   Email me if you want contact info.  If nothing else the 2 of you can talk flying because he's a fire jumper in Yellowstone.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 13, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> Sorry, I don’t buy the “sunk cost” argument: I already own it; I might as well use it.
> 
> The return on your sunk cost dollars plummets as you move down from…
> 
> ...



cbdmvci, I like your value stream mapping, but I don't quite follow the logic in your example.  Here are my thoughts on this:

1. The business case presented in your example uses the boolean operator "OR".  Meaning that its one "OR" the other.  I don't think thats really the case since you already own your timeshare and already pay yearly maintenance fees.  So I think the more appropriate business logic is to use the boolean operator "AND".  Meaning the additive property.

2. OK you can stay at BPT for $158/night.  But I think you can't trade for the same amount since you need to factor in the II Trade costs.  That makes it a little bit higher.  Also, you are not guaranteed anything equivalent in return.

3. As a DC Member you can go to Orlando for $120/night in a 2-bedroom for same timeframe February 2013.  See Link: https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...2eY8R71oDvbdjXgiNmhoZV9jpQ/Orlando.png?psid=1

*So this is $266 less per week than your BPT stay just for being a DC member.*

4. Yes, you are right you can can go on hotels.com and buy that same Bohemiam room for $199 per night.  But why spend the extra money?  *Since you have already paid your maintenance fees the real cost out-of-pocket is $199 + $159 = $358/night.  That's $20/night more than the DC cost you have stated! So for a one week stay you will be paying $140 more using Hotels.com than the DC cost.*

There are also other factors to consider when proposing such scenarios.

(a) Using the DC, you can check-in any day of week.  Thus allowing you the possibility to lower your overall AIR travel costs by checking-in on lower demand days.

(b) Using the DC you are GUARANTEED a reservation based upon availability of the correct size unit and view type if applicable.  This has intrinsic value which can't be duplicated with your BPT stay.  At BPT you will have to fight for a ocean view unit or get the standard Intercostal view.

(c) In the DC an owner can stay 3 weekends for the Winterfest Boat Parade, Las Olas Art Festival, and International Boat Show.  A legacy week owner at BPT is not able to do any of this.  They have to reserve their week every year the same old way.

(d) Using legacy weeks at BPT you are locked into your season every year unless you exchange.  Using the DC an owner can go anytime there is availability.  Oh, and that guest who uses Hotels.com and actually gets a reservation for $199, he is guaranteed to get the worst view in the facility.  For sure he won't be getting a better view than actual owners and DC members.    

I agree that the Explorer Collection options in the DC are expensive.  But a member who is retired and wants to go on vacation will not spend the extra cash to get something they have already paid for.

Someone who saves their DC points for 3 years to spend 20K points for tickets to a Super Bowl experience because it means the world to them doesn't think twice about spending those points.

Life, people, and value propositions just can't be measured with such a narrowly focused magnifying glass.


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## m61376 (Apr 14, 2012)

FractionalTraveler-
I understand your point, and it is a good one, but I think it all boils down to one's outlook- either use what you already have, regardless of whether the value is inherently there, or get a better price (sometimes significantly better) for the same or better item (since the Explorer Collection offerings can be duplicated either at better prices or better itineraries/tour operators, or both) and still have use of what you already own to use/bank/rent.

There are many people who would rather "pay" more using what they already have rather than having to outlay cash, and the DC offerings appeal to them. Look at all the bookings they already have for the Marriott Owner cruise- obviously overpriced compared to other online pricing, and for a standard itinerary and run of the mill cruise line (ok- admittedly I really dislike NCL and know many who share my sentiments). But for some, trading their already paid for weeks, with the obligatory MF outlay, for a cruise is a wonderful opportunity that perhaps they would not be able to afford, or not want to spend the additional money on. It's kinda the rationale that many of us use for buying in the first place- if we have it, we use it.

There is no right or wrong here, but presenting both sides is great, because it enables people to recognize what the true costs and "overpayment" or "bargain" (depending on one's perspective) they are truly getting. Like, beauty, value is also in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Jo'Se (Oct 16, 2012)

Yesterday I called Marriott Explorer Club to make reservation for a 4-day cruise.  Besides the points I'm giving up from my account, there's tax&fee tag on to the price.  The agent on the phone told me the tax & fee for the cruise would be $200 per person.  Just to see how far my points are getting me in real $$ value, I went to the cruise line website to look up the same cruise.  I'm not happy!  Not only that the cruise price vs Club point value did not go far.  If I was booking the cruise directly via the cruise line the tax&fee is only $98 per person, yet Marriott's affiliate cruise booking agent is asking twice as much.  

So, my question is, has anyone else experience the same thing???????  OR KNOW WHy??

Looking foward to all your replies!


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## mjkkb2 (Oct 16, 2012)

I haven't personally but recall a thread with same exercise you're doing and even the 'twice the fees' statement in it.


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## Beefnot (Oct 16, 2012)

May make more sense to rent out one's units and use those funds to buy the vacation, and maybe even have some cream left over.


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## jeff76543 (Oct 16, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I have yet to find an Explorer offering that makes DC points sense.  Generally, they amount to a 30% to 40% premium over just going to the travel, cruise, and/or tour company(ies) directly and paying cash.
> 
> Can anyone give me an example of an Explorer offering that they have successfully bought with DC points that represented a savings over cash for the same trip/vacation?
> 
> For convenience's sake, use a common DC points rental value of $.50 per point.



I only became aware of TUG in July, when I also became a member, so I did not see this thread when it first appeared and am responding to it only now.

My wife and I took the 18 day Collette tour to China and Tibet last September using the Explorer Collection and we greatly enjoyed the trip (more about this below).  Our MF at Ocean Pointe is about $0.31 per point and the tour was bought with 16,000 DC points, which is equivalent to $4,960.  The cost of the tour for 2 people directly from Collette is now $7,998, although I think that it was a few hundred dollars less last year.  I also imagine that it would be possible to get a discount that would lower the list price, but I greatly doubt that it would be possible to find a price of less than $5,000 for a tour that included an equal standard of attractions and hotels (including the Kempinski Hotel in Chengdu, the Grand New World Hotel in Xi'an and the very good -- if not overwhelming -- Beijing Marriott City Wall Hotel, where we had upgraded rooms).

I know that there have been disparaging remarks about the Collette Tours, but as I have written on another recent thread relating to Collette, our experience was very positive and exceeded our own high expectations. The tour manager (who also guided in Beijing) was excellent, the group was small (16 people) and in general a very good group, the accommodations were extremely good and the locations that were visited were a good choice.  Many of the individuals on the tour had taken numerous tours and almost all of them said that this was one of the best tours that they had taken.

The trip to Tibet and China is part of Collette's "Explorations" Tours, which emphasizes small groups and longer tours.  It is possible that the regular Collette tours, which are designed for larger groups, are not as well run and provide much less individual attention.  Having said this, our experience was very positive and I think that this should be noted as a counter-weight to the many reports of the low standard of Collette's tours.


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