# [2016] Mega Renters



## DisneyGeek (Jul 20, 2016)

Hey everyone,
  Have anyone of you heard of Wyndham "Blacklisting" or marking you account as a mega renter? TIA


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## Jan M. (Jul 20, 2016)

*How meg-owners are identified.*

Several years ago I was contacted by an attorney to try to get us to join in a lawsuit against Wyndham. I was listed in the group of mega renters because that particular year I had paid for over a certain number of guest reservations which therefore identified me as a mega renter. Wyndham was required to provide the law firm with a list of mega renters. I told him I wasn't really a mega-renter. I had been foolishly booking a lot of 1-3 night stays and had used a number of guest reservations for friends and family. 

Although we weren't interested in joining the lawsuit I was interested in hearing what the attorney had to say and I learned more than I wanted to know about about Wyndham doing questionable things. But probably still only a drop in the bucket. The attorney was quite honest with me that at the end of the day you are never going to see even anything close to what you paid for your ownership out of the settlement if you bought directly from Wyndham, you will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement and will be barred from owning Wyndham in the future. I have heard from various sources that there are a large number of lawsuits against Wyndham for their business practices and things they do that are most definitely not in our (the owners) best interests. They always settle out of court so we owners remain blissfully ignorant.

We enjoy using the Wyndham resorts and decided not to let what we learned make us bitter or regret our purchase. 

What I do find curious is that we owners do not seem to understand that we employ Wyndham, we pay them to work for us. And we are allowing our employee to dictate to us, not act in our best interests, etc.


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## ronparise (Jul 29, 2016)

DisneyGeek said:


> Hey everyone,
> Have anyone of you heard of Wyndham "Blacklisting" or marking you account as a mega renter? TIA



Wyndham management knows who I am and what I do. I 

I spoke to a corporate salesman recently who told me that there was a note on my account that said that they were not allowed to sell me anything

and at the resorts I am not invited to sales presentations

But the transfer department will still process contracts I buy on the secondary market


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## Braindead (Jul 29, 2016)

Amazing Ron can't be upgraded to CWA or add more points by buying from Wyndham!!! How lucky you are. What a blacklist to be on we don't want you as a customer. That's just not politically correct !!! (removed offensive sentence)


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## VegasBella (Jul 29, 2016)

Jan M. said:


> I have heard from various sources that there are a large number of lawsuits against Wyndham for their business practices and things they do that are most definitely not in our (the owners) best interests. They always settle out of court so we owners remain blissfully ignorant.
> 
> We enjoy using the Wyndham resorts and decided not to let what we learned make us bitter or regret our purchase.
> 
> What I do find curious is that we owners do not seem to understand that we employ Wyndham, we pay them to work for us. And we are allowing our employee to dictate to us, not act in our best interests, etc.



As a new owner of a week at a Wyndham owned and managed property the first red flag is how they say there are all these rules about my ownership but when I ask for a written hard copy of the rules they act like I am asking for something that doesn't exist. 

Like you, we're going to simply use and enjoy what we own for as long as it makes sense regardless of Wyndham behavior. But if I'm asked to join a lawsuit I will definitely carefully consider it. These companies are shady and they need to be challenged.



ronparise said:


> there was a note on my account that said that they were not allowed to sell me anything
> 
> and at the resorts I am not invited to sales presentations
> 
> But the transfer department will still process contracts I buy on the secondary market


Odd. I bet a lot of people would like a note on their accounts that sales people should leave them alone


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## x3 skier (Jul 29, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham management knows who I am and what I do. I
> 
> I spoke to a corporate salesman recently who told me that there was a note on my account that said that they were not allowed to sell me anything
> 
> ...



How much did you have to pay them for this "punishment"?

Cheers


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## bizaro86 (Jul 29, 2016)

Interesting. They must have concluded that the cost of selling you another platinum account outweighs the money they would get from selling you more points.

The only way I've heard of getting blackballed is to tell them you're a timeshare salesman.


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## ronparise (Jul 29, 2016)

I think it's simple.

Any sales organization that knows what they are doing will screen their leads and only put legitimate prospects in front of their salesmen  

 It makes no sense for wyndham sales to waste time with me when they can see folks with money that don't know this stuff as well as I do


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## famy27 (Jul 29, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham management knows who I am and what I do. I
> 
> I spoke to a corporate salesman recently who told me that there was a note on my account that said that they were not allowed to sell me anything
> 
> ...



Can we start invoking your name at check in or claiming you as a relative? I think I might tell Glacier Canyon I'm Ron Parise's daughter to see if I can get my stupid parking pass any quicker.


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## x3 skier (Jul 29, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I think it's simple.
> 
> Any sales organization that knows what they are doing will screen their leads and only put legitimate prospects in front of their salesmen
> 
> It makes no sense for wyndham sales to waste time with me when they can see folks with money that don't know this stuff as well as I do



I tried that at my last visit to HGVC Elara by clearly stating I had no intention of buying retail and could save a bundle buying resale if I wanted to get into the system.

The salesman agreed to pass me buy but was overruled by "management" so we talked about other things until time expired and I got the tickets and points. 

I suppose I'll be blackballed by HGVC for future freebies.

Cheers


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## jebloomquist (Jul 29, 2016)

Jan M. said:


> … The attorney was quite honest with me that at the end of the day you are never going to see even anything close to what you paid for your ownership out of the settlement if you bought directly from Wyndham, you will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement and will be barred from owning Wyndham in the future. I have heard from various sources that there are a large number of lawsuits against Wyndham for their business practices and things they do that are most definitely not in our (the owners) best interests. They always settle out of court so we owners remain blissfully ignorant….



What a brilliant covert thing for Wyndham to do. Start what appears to be a legitimate law suit against Wyndham, and then get renters to joint. Have them sign the agreement to where they are "barred from owning Wyndham in the future." But, then for some reason the law suit produces nothing for the plaintiffs.  Amazing, Wyndham just got rid of some renters. 

To me, something looks strange in the description of this lawsuit. Anyone joining this type of a lawsuit is “blissfully ignorant.”

Jim


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## ecwinch (Jul 29, 2016)

famy27 said:


> Can we start invoking your name at check in or claiming you as a relative? I think I might tell Glacier Canyon I'm Ron Parise's daughter to see if I can get my stupid parking pass any quicker.



You might be on to something. For the past year I have not had to run the sales gauntlet on the Worldmark or Wyndham side.

The last "owner update" I went on was in Sept 2016 at Glacier Canyon - and I did drop Ron's name. Ever since then - no offers to attend "owner updates".


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## jebloomquist (Jul 29, 2016)

I wear my TUG t-shirt to updates. Buy one. Try it.

Jim


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## laura123 (Jul 29, 2016)

*San Diego Update*

My salesperson saw our account and said we would buy nothing from them. I would like to be Platinum but I would only do it if they let me Pic 2 3 bedroom South African units and then a purchase of 105k. I own 1 Pic 154k, 259k at Kona and 105 at Harbor. I bought developer points to be Goldin 2004. I paid 15k Also have 364k which are noted as resale. So my 800 points are 385. a month.

I was going to turn in the Harbor to Ovations until she told me I would lose the Gold status whew!

So I suppose if I want more points I will buy resale or buy some from Ron.


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## chapjim (Jul 31, 2016)

DisneyGeek said:


> Hey everyone,
> Have anyone of you heard of Wyndham "Blacklisting" or marking you account as a mega renter? TIA



Does anyone know exactly what a "mega-renter" is?

We throw the term around here to describe people who do "a lot" of renting but it sounds like Wyndham has an actual definition.

I do some renting but I don't know if I trip the threshold.


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## bogey21 (Jul 31, 2016)

chapjim said:


> Does anyone know exactly what a "mega-renter" is?



My definition is simply one who rents a large number of weeks for the sole purpose of making money.

George


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 31, 2016)

We "only" have 1.5M points in my family account and we've made the list. (At this point we have minimal resale points). I can only guess (and maybe I'm only kidding myself) it's because of the efficient use of points (we take advantage of every possible cancel and rebook).  Yes, I rent out points for others (but the points for others is not something Wyndham would be privvy to). No, I still don't consider myself a mega renter.  

My brother recently stayed in New Orleans (at La Belle Maison) with some friends.  The friends (guests) were targeted for a presentation, my brother (owner) was not asked. 

Last time we stayed in Las Vegas they said at checkin there was a code on our account she'd never seen before. She thought I must have requested not to be asked (if only we had that option ).

I have to admit, it is refreshing to check in with absolutely no hassle. Not a minute is wasted with "the dance" at registration, let alone a presentation.

I should add, Vacation Specialists as well as Owner Care treat me wonderfully. They bend over backwards to be helpful, so they certainly don't try to discourage me from being an owner.  They go above and beyond to provide great customer service.


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## ronparise (Jul 31, 2016)

ecwinch said:


> You might be on to something. For the past year I have not had to run the sales gauntlet on the Worldmark or Wyndham side.
> 
> The last "owner update" I went on was in Sept 2016 at Glacier Canyon - and I did drop Ron's name. Ever since then - no offers to attend "owner updates".



Is that really true? 

and was it a sales person or the parking pass people.


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## Cheryl20772 (Aug 1, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Is that really true?
> 
> and was it a sales person or the parking pass people.



I want to see the delorean.


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## bizaro86 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ecwinch is just in a different time zone - 1 year ahead of the continental USA.


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## ecwinch (Aug 1, 2016)

Haha.  It was Sept 2015. Thanks.

And Ron, it was the sales person.


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## bnoble (Aug 1, 2016)

Makes sense.  The body snatchers (er, parking pass folks) have a quota of people they get to take the tour.  They have some very minimal qualification standards, but it's not subtle. The sales folks get paid based on closed sales, and they are much more willing to move on when they have no chance.


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## dgalati (May 16, 2020)

Bumping this thread to see if anyone knows if Wyndham blacklists or classifies a owner as a mega-renter?


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## CO skier (May 16, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Bumping this thread to see if anyone knows if Wyndham blacklists or classifies a owner as a mega-renter?


I hope no one is dumb enough to take your 4-year-old bait.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 17, 2020)

Old thread.  We need to let it die a quick death, take it out of its misery.


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## jules54 (May 18, 2020)

I hv also been put on the do not tour list. Sometimes the parking pass person will overlook the note I guess. Then before offering us goodies they go to Supervisor and they shake their heads no and whisper something. I thought I was on the list because all my contracts are resale now and most from affiliate resorts that will expire.


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## geist1223 (May 18, 2020)

¿Can we just shut down this thread?


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## dgalati (May 18, 2020)

CO skier said:


> I hope no one is dumb enough to take your 4-year-old bait.





rickandcindy23 said:


> Old thread.  We need to let it die a quick death, take it out of its misery.





geist1223 said:


> ¿Can we just shut down this thread?



Maybe one of the shut down mega-renters can add some input. It is very possible that Wyndham may have disclosed this information to them.


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## dgalati (May 18, 2020)

jules54 said:


> I hv also been put on the do not tour list. Sometimes the parking pass person will overlook the note I guess. Then before offering us goodies they go to Supervisor and they shake their heads no and whisper something. I thought I was on the list because all my contracts are resale now and most from affiliate resorts that will expire.


My Uncle is on the do not tour list also. When I would book a reservation and we traveled together I always received the invite. I would point out that my Uncle was a VIP and they would initially offer but as you said after further review with a supervisor he would be denied. Pretty ironic I bought all resale and he bought developer. Not sure what transpired to make this happen but he did have a run in with a sales weasel at Grand Desert and after that he was always denied.


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## dgalati (May 18, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Anyone who signs onto a developer VIP ownership agrees to something about their non-commercial use of the account.  (Not sure about the exact terminology).  This would make it easy to distinguish between personal use of a VIP ownership from a commercial use, largely from the number of guest certificates used.
> 
> A restriction or limitation on the use of Guest Certificates would present no problem for an owner who utilizes their points for personal use, but a major impediment for a megarenter who has no or little interest in using Wyndham points for their own vacation(s).



Looks like you may have a pretty good solution to limit rentals and how to define what a mega-renter may be.


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## Richelle (May 21, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Old thread. We need to let it die a quick death, take it out of its misery.



@ecwinch would be the one who could end the thread and cut off further comments. You can send him a message if you’d like.


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## dgalati (May 21, 2020)

Richelle said:


> @ecwinch would be the one who could end the thread and cut off further comments. You can send him a message if you’d like.


I have always respected you comments and opinions but why shut down a thread because someone may disagree with a question? If someone doesn't like a particular thread they also have the option to stop reading it!


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## Richelle (May 21, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I have always respected you comments and opinions but why shut down a thread because someone may disagree with a question? If someone doesn't like a particular thread they also have the option to stop reading it!



I was replying to his comment because multiple people asked for the thread to be shut down.  I told them who to go to if they wanted it done.  I have this thing where I hate when people complain about something but do nothing to change it.  That was my way of telling them, If it bothers you that much, do something about it besides complaining.  It's on them if they care enough to take the time to message him, asking him to shut it down.  If they will actually shut it down is a whole other story.  I personally don't care if it stays alive.  I think their point is your digging up a very old thread when you can just as easily start a new one.  If you want to find out the outcomes from some of the mega renters, it might be better to PM them directly, because they may not want to discuss it here.  Some might even be under NDAs.


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## paxsarah (May 21, 2020)

Another option instead of messaging a moderator directly (I don't know how they feel about that) is the "Report" link at the bottom of every post. I use that a lot when a years-old thread is bumped to request a mod add the year to the title so that people don't inadvertently start answering questions from four years ago. IMO that is probably a more efficient method of getting mod eyes on an issue than either posting publicly in the thread or directly messaging one particular mod (who may be busy having their own life at that moment).


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## Richelle (May 21, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Another option instead of messaging a moderator directly (I don't know how they feel about that) is the "Report" link at the bottom of every post. I use that a lot when a years-old thread is bumped to request a mod add the year to the title so that people don't inadvertently start answering questions from four years ago. IMO that is probably a more efficient method of getting mod eyes on an issue than either posting publicly in the thread or directly messaging one particular mod (who may be busy having their own life at that moment).



They get a notice for both.  I am not seeing how one is less intrusive than the other?


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## paxsarah (May 21, 2020)

Richelle said:


> They get a notice for both.  I am not seeing how one is less intrusive than the other?



Not less intrusive, but more likely to reach one of a group of moderators rather than relying on one particular moderator to be available. If someone messaged Eric and he was unplugged for a few hours, or a weekend, that request would go unseen for a while, but the "Report" link will get to an active moderator much sooner.


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## 55plus (May 21, 2020)

Is there any such thing as a 'real' mega renter anymore other than Extra Holidays? I thought the last policy change took care of them.


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## dgalati (May 22, 2020)

55plus said:


> Is there any such thing as a 'real' mega renter anymore other than Extra Holidays? I thought the last policy change took care of them.


If any Mega-renters are left over from a few years back I'm sure they are not bragging about it. The smart ones are keeping a low profile and trying to fly under the radar. Remember Wyndham has the right to change club rules when they feel it's necessary. With the over abundance of points available for next year I wouldn't be surprised if Wyndham didn't restrict rental reservations or GC's to help owners that are looking to book for personal use.


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## Jan M. (May 22, 2020)

55plus said:


> Is there any such thing as a 'real' mega renter anymore other than Extra Holidays? I thought the last policy change took care of them.



To answer your question, yes. There are a lot more owners that Wyndham classifies as mega renters than most people would guess. The old mega renters prior to the Freeze of August 2016 and Voyager in May 2017 were replaced by new ones just as Ron P. and I predicted they would be. Some of the old ones survived and Ron accurately predicted that they would learn to adapt.


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## dgalati (May 22, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> To answer your question, yes. There are a lot more owners that Wyndham classifies as mega renters than most people would guess. The old mega renters prior to the Freeze of August 2016 and Voyager in May 2017 were replaced by new ones just as Ron P. and I predicted they would be. Some of the old ones survived and Ron accurately predicted that they would learn to adapt.


Does anyone know what Wyndham considers to be a mega-renter. Is it the total number of GC's used, the total number of points used with a guest reservations or is it the percentage of points owned that are used with  GC's? I would think Wyndham has to have software in place to track all these numbers. If Wyndham limited GC's  until the end of 2021 it would help to create more availability for owners making reservations for personal use. IMHO It also would probably force out some mega-renters.


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## Jan M. (May 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Does anyone know what Wyndham considers to be a mega-renter. Is it the total number of GC's used, the total number of points used with a guest reservations or is it the percentage of points owned that are used with  GC's? I would think Wyndham has to have software in place to track all these numbers. If Wyndham limited GC's  until the end of 2021 it would help to create more availability for owners making reservations for personal use. IMHO It also would probably force out some mega-renters.



Guess what program they use to track these things? If you guessed the website/program we all used before we got Voyager in May of 2017 then you would be right.


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## dioxide45 (May 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I was replying to his comment because multiple people asked for the thread to be shut down.  I told them who to go to if they wanted it done.  I have this thing where I hate when people complain about something but do nothing to change it.  That was my way of telling them, If it bothers you that much, do something about it besides complaining.  It's on them if they care enough to take the time to message him, asking him to shut it down.  If they will actually shut it down is a whole other story.  I personally don't care if it stays alive.  I think their point is your digging up a very old thread when you can just as easily start a new one.  If you want to find out the outcomes from some of the mega renters, it might be better to PM them directly, because they may not want to discuss it here.  Some might even be under NDAs.


I am not sure if they would lock a thread just based on the OPs request? Do we have a precedent for this. I know that many threads have gone off the rails over the years and posters delete their posts (until the 48 hour rule came along). But not aware of a request from an OP to have a thread closed and it being done.


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## dgalati (May 22, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure if they would lock a thread just based on the OPs request? Do we have a precedent for this. I know that many threads have gone off the rails over the years and posters delete their posts (until the 48 hour rule came along). But not aware of a request from an OP to have a thread closed and it being done.


OPs didn't ask it was a few others that decided it should be shut down.


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## 55plus (May 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> If any Mega-renters are left over from a few years back I'm sure they are not bragging about it. The smart ones are keeping a low profile and trying to fly under the radar. Remember Wyndham has the right to change club rules when they feel it's necessary. With the over abundance of points available for next year I wouldn't be surprised if Wyndham didn't restrict rental reservations or GC's to help owners that are looking to book for personal use.


With the pandemic situation going on and resorts maintaining unit social distancing I would hope Wyndham controls the renting and give owners who personally use their points for their pleasure priority. This goes for Extra Holidays too.


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## dgalati (May 23, 2020)

55plus said:


> With the pandemic situation going on and resorts maintaining unit social distancing I would hope Wyndham controls the renting and give owners who personally use their points for their pleasure priority. This goes for Extra Holidays too.


Exactly what the club was intended for "owners personal use". Gift certificates were a way to "gift" points to friends and family not intended to be rental certificates .


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## Grammarhero (May 27, 2020)

Interesting to know how mega renters operate particularly in this pandemic


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## Braindead (May 27, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Interesting to know how mega renters operate particularly in this pandemic


How are mega renters operating particularly in this pandemic?


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## dgalati (May 27, 2020)

Braindead said:


> How are mega renters operating particularly in this pandemic?





Braindead said:


> Amazing Ron can't be upgraded to CWA or add more points by buying from Wyndham!!! How lucky you are. What a blacklist to be on we don't want you as a customer. That's just not politically correct !!! (removed offensive sentence)


They are on the blacklist and Wyndham doesn't want them as a customer.


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## dgalati (May 30, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Interesting to know how mega renters operate particularly in this pandemic
> .



IMHO its a lot more work and not as profitable. Over the next year owners that rented to pay maintenance fees will have to change their strategy to survive. With the over supply of points chasing limited availability or the continued GC cancellation policy VIP owners renting to cover maintenance fees are in for more pain $ financially.


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## Richelle (May 30, 2020)

dgalati said:


> IMHO its a lot more work and not as profitable. Over the next year owners that rented to pay maintenance fees will have to change their strategy to survive. With the over supply of points chasing limited availability or the continued GC cancellation policy VIP owners renting to cover maintenance fees are in for more pain $ financially.


I don't believe they will continue to cancel guest reservations for much longer.  In theory, it would mean owners get to vacation more because renters cannot rent out reservations.  However, since there can only be one reservation per owner, owners cannot get extra rooms for their family or friends.  Two parents cannot take their adult kids and grandkids on vacation unless they get a really big room, which is in short supply in normal circumstances.  They will have to allow owners to start using guest certificates again.  What I am hoping they do, is take our suggestion of a "Friends and Family" list where owners can have a list of people that they can make reservations for without using a guest certificate.  I'm sure they would have to put a limit on how many people they can have and how often the names can be changed to keep commercial renters from abusing it, but I think a list would help your average owner who is using it for personal pleasure.  For anyone not on the list, you would have to use a guest certificate.  It was one of the suggestions we gave Annie Roberts at the owner's meeting.


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## am1 (May 30, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Exactly what the club was intended for "owners personal use". Gift certificates were a way to "gift" points to friends and family not intended to be rental certificates .



Tell that to the sales people.  

Glad things went the way they did a few years ago.  A golden parachute.


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## MaryBella7 (May 30, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I don't believe they will continue to cancel guest reservations for much longer.  In theory, it would mean owners get to vacation more because renters cannot rent out reservations.  However, since there can only be one reservation per owner, owners cannot get extra rooms for their family or friends.  Two parents cannot take their adult kids and grandkids on vacation unless they get a really big room, which is in short supply in normal circumstances.  They will have to allow owners to start using guest certificates again.  What I am hoping they do, is take our suggestion of a "Friends and Family" list where owners can have a list of people that they can make reservations for without using a guest certificate.  I'm sure they would have to put a limit on how many people they can have and how often the names can be changed to keep commercial renters from abusing it, but I think a list would help your average owner who is using it for personal pleasure.  For anyone not on the list, you would have to use a guest certificate.  It was one of the suggestions we gave Annie Roberts at the owner's meeting.


I am sorry for being daft. I knew guest certificates were out but I didn’t realize that there could only be one reservation per owner. Is that contract, or if 2 owners are on the contract, can there be one in each name?


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## Richelle (May 30, 2020)

MaryBella7 said:


> I am sorry for being daft. I knew guest certificates were out but I didn’t realize that there could only be one reservation per owner. Is that contract, or if 2 owners are on the contract, can there be one in each name?


Yep.  If you have two owners, each owner can hold one reservation each.  This only applies if you are booking multiple rooms for the same trip.  The specific wording is:

"If you are confirming more than one suite with dates that overlap within the same period, a Guest Confirmation must be added to the additional reservation(s) within 48 hours after the reservation(s) is confirmed."

I have multiple reservations in my name, but they are at different times.


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## MaryBella7 (May 30, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Yep.  If you have two owners, each owner can hold one reservation each.  This only applies if you are booking multiple rooms for the same trip.  The specific wording is:
> 
> "If you are confirming more than one suite with dates that overlap within the same period, a Guest Confirmation must be added to the additional reservation(s) within 48 hours after the reservation(s) is confirmed."
> 
> I have multiple reservations in my name, but they are at different times.


Ok. I was making sure that it didn’t change with the new covid phased openings. Thank you!


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## Eric B (May 31, 2020)

folgema said:


> Is there a forum for advice on buying WM for a CW resale owner?  I am all resale, and don't really care about VIP.  But, I am interested in figuring out the best way to get access to WM.  Thanks!





Richelle said:


> Yep.  If you have two owners, each owner can hold one reservation each.  This only applies if you are booking multiple rooms for the same trip.  The specific wording is:
> 
> "If you are confirming more than one suite with dates that overlap within the same period, a Guest Confirmation must be added to the additional reservation(s) within 48 hours after the reservation(s) is confirmed."
> 
> I have multiple reservations in my name, but they are at different times.



Is that on the basis of ownership of the specific contract used for the reservation or of the account the contract is associated with?  I'm pretty sure it's the account because there isn't a limitation I've seen preventing you from using points on a contract for reservations for someone else on the account, but wanted to get that clarified.  That seems supported by the wording quoted as well.

On an interesting note, our account has two versions of our names, one with middle names included and one without, making it four options for names to list as who is staying in a reservation for myself and my wife.  I haven't tried it yet, but suspect that this would likely allow me to have four overlapping reservations.  I think it was the result of they're having included the middle names on a deed for one of our contracts.


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## Richelle (May 31, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Is that on the basis of ownership of the specific contract used for the reservation or of the account the contract is associated with? I'm pretty sure it's the account because there isn't a limitation I've seen preventing you from using points on a contract for reservations for someone else on the account, but wanted to get that clarified. That seems supported by the wording quoted as well.
> 
> On an interesting note, our account has two versions of our names, one with middle names included and one without, making it four options for names to list as who is staying in a reservation for myself and my wife. I haven't tried it yet, but suspect that this would likely allow me to have four overlapping reservations. I think it was the result of they're having included the middle names on a deed for one of our contracts.



It is per account. I think you’re right about the additional names. If you’re able to, I say book a few low points reservations and see if one gets canceled to test the theory.


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## bendadin (May 31, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Is that on the basis of ownership of the specific contract used for the reservation or of the account the contract is associated with?  I'm pretty sure it's the account because there isn't a limitation I've seen preventing you from using points on a contract for reservations for someone else on the account, but wanted to get that clarified.  That seems supported by the wording quoted as well.
> 
> On an interesting note, our account has two versions of our names, one with middle names included and one without, making it four options for names to list as who is staying in a reservation for myself and my wife.  I haven't tried it yet, but suspect that this would likely allow me to have four overlapping reservations.  I think it was the result of they're having included the middle names on a deed for one of our contracts.



It will work. They say that they take the names off the deed so maybe one time it closed with your middle initial, maybe another time it didn't. I have my name, middle name, middle initial and last name and I am positive that I never closed anything like that. I can make reservations in any of these names. My guy has two identical with his initial, and one without his initial so I have no idea of knowing which one I used unless the warning pops up. I also have a son with the same name except on the reservation they drop the suffix off, so again, no idea which name listing the reservation is actually in.


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## dgalati (Jun 3, 2020)

am1 said:


> Tell that to the sales people.
> 
> Glad things went the way they did a few years ago.  A golden parachute.


Everything happens for a reason.  This year was the first time in several years that I didn't buy up to 1 million resale points for my personal use. What a blessing it was when Wyndham informed me my negative points balance would  "0" out at end of 2019 but starting in 2020 Wyndham would be charging $12/1000 on all negative points balances.


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## dgalati (Jun 17, 2020)

am1 said:


> Tell that to the sales people.
> 
> Glad things went the way they did a few years ago.  A golden parachute.


Can you discuss the details of your golden parachute or are you still under a nondisclosure agreement?


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## dgalati (Jul 7, 2020)

Richelle said:


> It is per account. I think you’re right about the additional names. If you’re able to, I say book a few low points reservations and see if one gets canceled to test the theory.


Test the theory or "loophole". LOL Mega renters exploited every loophole to their advantage.


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## ronparise (Jul 8, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Can you discuss the details of your golden parachute or are you still under a nondisclosure agreement?



Im not am1 but i got what he calls a golden parachute too. And if his NDA was the same as mine, yea, its a forever thing



dgalati said:


> Test the theory or "loophole". LOL Mega renters exploited every loophole to their advantage.


I think what that made what I did possible wasnt so much the loopholes I exploited but rather that Wyndham had just completed a round of rule changes that they thought would put an end to the megarenter problem, Basically they let their guard down

the loopholes I took advantage of were 

the points credit pool,
cheap VIP contracts
VIP contracts with only resale contracts (I think I was  the first to figure this out working with another tugger)
cancel and rebook and upgrade

and the big one that brought the house down, was Wyndhams silo management,  Their right hand didnt know what their left hand was doing.  One group was helping me put everything into the points credit pool and make reservations with guest confirms. Their job was to help the owners.  And another group was buying the stripped contracts for more than what I paid for them. Their job was to accumulate cheap inventory  to resell at full price The end result was that I was making three years of reservations paying less than a year of maintenance fees

It was a pretty good 6 year run

And the crazy thing was the reaction of the Wyndham lawyer and his staff when I told him what I was doing. 

Their first offer was to say  If I signed everything back to Wyndham, they wouldnt sue me. I said no to that.  A week or so later they invited me to make a counter offer, I asked for a million dollars.  We settled somewhere in between.


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## dgalati (Jul 8, 2020)

ronparise said:


> Im not am1 but i got what he calls a golden parachute too. And if his NDA was the same as mine, yea, its a forever thing
> 
> 
> I think what that made what I did possible wasnt so much the loopholes I exploited but rather that Wyndham had just completed a round of rule changes that they thought would put an end to the megarenter problem, Basically they let their guard down
> ...


I can tell you first hand Wyndham still doesn't know what the right and left hands are doing. Ovations will not take a deed back unless you own it for a year but they are buying inventory through third parties using their preferred resale brokers. I exploited a few loopholes over the last several years but I was a trader of deeds. My strategy was to use all current use year points for my personal use then sell the deeds to cover any maintenance fees paid during my ownership. My goal was to have a ownership cost of $0/1000.  The negative balance put a damper on the strategy but I have navigated around it for now. The timing of when deeds came in was very important as it is now. Late fall will get you 2 years of use for under 6 months of paying maintenance fees.


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## ronparise (Jul 8, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I can tell you first hand Wyndham still doesn't know what the right and left hands are doing. Ovations will not take a deed back unless you own it for a year but they are buying inventory through third parties using their preferred resale brokers. I exploited a few loopholes over the last several years but I was a trader of deeds. My strategy was to use all current use year points for my personal use then sell the deeds to cover any maintenance fees paid during my ownership. My goal was to have a ownership cost of $0/1000.  The negative balance put a damper on the strategy but I have navigated around it for now. The timing of when deeds came in was very important as it is now. Late fall will get you 2 years of use for under 6 months of paying maintenance fees.



somewhere here on tug is a post where I predicted that a whole new batch of owners would discover new loopholes and exploit them. I think thats happening and you are a prime example.


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## dgalati (Jul 8, 2020)

ronparise said:


> somewhere here on tug is a post where I predicted that a whole new batch of owners would discover new loopholes and exploit them. I think thats happening and you are a prime example.


I call it taking what they are giving. Many VIP owners say its abusing the system  but they themselves are doing the same. If you consider the resale points that they use as VIP benefits. We all know its a loophole that many VIP owners have exploited. It can be eliminated any day just as cancel and rebook was to limit the abuse. If a loophole is available why not use it to your advantage?


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## Richelle (Jul 9, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I call it taking what they are giving. Many VIP owners say its abusing the system  but they themselves are doing the same. If you consider the resale points that they use as VIP benefits. We all know its a loophole that many VIP owners have exploited. It can be eliminated any day just as cancel and rebook was to limit the abuse. If a loophole is available why not use it to your advantage?


I'm not sure it's as simple as you think to close that loophole.  I don't think any of us can say with any authority how hard or easy it would be to close that loophole.  It's true if they wanted to close it, they could find a way to close it.  How hard it would be, is a different story.  You have to factor the time and costs to change the booking system on how it treats resale points.  We don't have enough information about the system to know what it would take to make that kind of change.  There are many factors they have to consider before making that kind of change.  Logistics is just one factor.  Then you have to consider the consequences it will have.  Either on the system as a whole or with owners.  Again, without being on the inside, it's difficult to say what it would take, how it would happen, and what other factors they are considering.


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## dgalati (Jul 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I'm not sure it's as simple as you think to close that loophole.  I don't think any of us can say with any authority how hard or easy it would be to close that loophole.  It's true if they wanted to close it, they could find a way to close it.  How hard it would be, is a different story.  You have to factor the time and costs to change the booking system on how it treats resale points.  We don't have enough information about the system to know what it would take to make that kind of change.  There are many factors they have to consider before making that kind of change.  Logistics is just one factor.  Then you have to consider the consequences it will have.  Either on the system as a whole or with owners.  Again, without being on the inside, it's difficult to say what it would take, how it would happen, and what other factors they are considering.


Point was if its available to exploit and use why not? Until they close it make the best use of it!


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## am1 (Aug 4, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Point was if its available to exploit and use why not? Until they close it make the best use of it!



I did cancel/rebook I think better then anyone.  For the upgrades I started clicking on the units in between what I had and what I wanted.  When there was too many I would book them and cancel them originally would not come back till the next day when inventory would refresh.  For guest confirmations I would book Friday - Sunday, Sunday to Friday then Friday to Sunday.  Add the same two Names on each reservation for 1 guest confirmation fee as it was a continuing reservation then cancel Sunday - Monday and each guest had their weekend reservation in their name. Worked best in AC where people only want Fri-Sun.  10 reservations Limit in each account for each resort I got around by having 3 platinum accounts (with only buying 308k retail and picing 508k.). Then using other people’s accounts with free guest confirmations for the overflow.  I fell into buying resale el cids where vip stayed with the contract.  1 contract took so long to transfer it reverted back to El Cid points but took 6 all inclusive vacations there using only points as the bracelets were free by attending presentations.  Tower 6 at Bonnet Creek inventory starting for Thanksgiving week was released  as the remodel would finish before then and I booked about half the tower.  Pretty last minute to fully profit off it but was very happy.  

Born out of necessity as my account was locked and could not adjust reservations was flying to Florida to add guest names at the resorts. Bonnet Creek allowed unlimited at a timeAnd then restricted to only to reservations per owner could be changed into guest names at a time. Once had a guest check into a 4 bedroom and then leave but another guest arrived to stay in the same unit. It was day 7 of their so free Cleaning or else I would have had to pay for a full cleaning. Daytona beach change names into guest names for the following week on site for free then only allowed day of. In 24 hours did name changes in Orlando, off to Daytona Beach, down to Pompano Beach, went to the Orange Bowl, next to Daytona Beach for more check ins then back to Orlando for New Years Eve.
Transferred 4 million points to Wyndham Rewards where I still have some.  

When combining member numbers new guest confirmations were added to the account and duplicates of reservations with same confirmation number unless reservation was made the day before the reservation was complete. Then different confirmation number but same underlying room number. When cancelling duplicate reservations points went back to account but room never did as still held by keeping one of those confirmations in the account. Explained this to VCs and owner care and no one cared. Same phone conversation could also include how last night the website was down and could not cancel reservation at 15 day window and I wanted my points back and they would put me on hold to contact the IT department about it. I had video/screenshots but most times they would comeback and say IT had no known outages and if their were they would no about it. Once woke up to 50 million or so extra points in my account. Contact Wyndham and they will look into it nothing becomes of it as it was in December and points were set to expire at the end of the month. Not sure how many of my points got pushed forward and used theirs or how many of mine I lost as I did not want to deposit into RCI.
Had a 800k Las Vegas resale contract that was giving be vip benefits on two occasions almost upgraded it to 1 million and 1 thousand retail pr points.  First time the deal died as co owner was not there to sign so everything was set up except their signature. Second time was when Wyndham corporate knew that contract should not be giving vip benefits and everything was set except at the end the sales person said they were not allowed to sell to me.  
In the end I was asked very few questions about any of this and no one at Wyndham cared.  Now other then a memory and complicate story it’s all outdated.
Along the way I sold my Wyndham stock as I saw first hand how the company was run but as long as they were making sales and even better using the Waam model Wall Street was happy. 
But I am not allowed to disclose anything in regards to a settlement I imagine forever.


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## dgalati (Aug 4, 2020)

am1 said:


> I did cancel/rebook I think better then anyone.  For the upgrades I started clicking on the units in between what I had and what I wanted.  When there was too many I would book them and cancel them originally would not come back till the next day when inventory would refresh.  For guest confirmations I would book Friday - Sunday, Sunday to Friday then Friday to Sunday.  Add the same two Names on each reservation for 1 guest confirmation fee as it was a continuing reservation then cancel Sunday - Monday and each guest had their weekend reservation in their name. Worked best in AC where people only want Fri-Sun.  10 reservations Limit in each account for each resort I got around by having 3 platinum accounts (with only buying 308k retail and picing 508k.). Then using other people’s accounts with free guest confirmations for the overflow.  I fell into buying resale el cids where vip stayed with the contract.  1 contract took so long to transfer it reverted back to El Cid points but took 6 all inclusive vacations there using only points as the bracelets were free by attending presentations.  Tower 6 at Bonnet Creek inventory starting for Thanksgiving week was released  as the remodel would finish before then and I booked about half the tower.  Pretty last minute to fully profit off it but was very happy.
> 
> Born out of necessity as my account was locked and could not adjust reservations was flying to Florida to add guest names at the resorts. Bonnet Creek allowed unlimited at a timeAnd then restricted to only to reservations per owner could be changed into guest names at a time. Once had a guest check into a 4 bedroom and then leave but another guest arrived to stay in the same unit. It was day 7 of their so free Cleaning or else I would have had to pay for a full cleaning. Daytona beach change names into guest names for the following week on site for free then only allowed day of. In 24 hours did name changes in Orlando, off to Daytona Beach, down to Pompano Beach, went to the Orange Bowl, next to Daytona Beach for more check ins then back to Orlando for New Years Eve.
> Transferred 4 million points to Wyndham Rewards where I still have some.
> ...


It was fun until the lights came on and they yelled last call? I hope you exited with some sort of compensation other then the threat of not being sued.


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## am1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Yes.  I also got my mornings back to do other stuff, my nights back to sleep, not have to book, cancel and upgrade reservation from open to close. Refresh for new inventory all the time and not have to check e-mails 24/7.  Also not have to worry about being on Eastern Time. Travelled to London and Paris, Las Vegas and California and never had to keep my clocks on Eastern Time.   I do miss helping people travel and hearing back from how happy they were to have 4 bedrooms/4 bathrooms and a kitchen bigger then theirs at home.


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## CO skier (Aug 5, 2020)

am1 said:


> Yes.  I also got my mornings back to do other stuff, my nights back to sleep, not have to book, cancel and upgrade reservation from open to close. Refresh for new inventory all the time and not have to check e-mails 24/7.  Also not have to worry about being on Eastern Time. Travelled to London and Paris, Las Vegas and California and never had to keep my clocks on Eastern Time.   I do miss helping people travel and hearing back from how happy they were to have 4 bedrooms/4 bathrooms and a kitchen bigger then theirs at home.


And the Owners who invested into Wyndham for their vacations, who can now and are actually booking their vacations at full points cost, instead of cheating the system through cancel/rebook for a rental in a "4 bedrooms/4 bathrooms and a kitchen bigger then theirs at home" are the winners over your rental "people."


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## am1 (Aug 5, 2020)

CO skier said:


> And the Owners who invested into Wyndham for their vacations, who can now and are actually booking their vacations at full points cost, instead of cheating the system through cancel/rebook for a rental in a "4 bedrooms/4 bathrooms and a kitchen bigger then theirs at home" are the winners over your rental "people."



If you are still bothered by it.  Do not forget who was the one who promised myself, other owners etc how it could work.  I just worked in the space I was provided.  I am no smarter then any other owners who went on a timeshare tour and got bit.


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## dgalati (Aug 5, 2020)

am1 said:


> If you are still bothered by it.  Do not forget who was the one who promised myself, other owners etc how it could work.  I just worked in the space I was provided.  I am no smarter then any other owners who went on a timeshare tour and got bit.


A few posters forget Wyndham is the largest Mega renter. They rent owners points to their advantage while taking inventory away from owners looking to book personal reservations. How many times have you tried to book a vacation and could not find availability but could rent from Extra Holidays?



CO skier said:


> And the Owners who invested into Wyndham for their vacations, who can now and are actually booking their vacations at full points cost, instead of cheating the system through cancel/rebook for a rental in a "4 bedrooms/4 bathrooms and a kitchen bigger then theirs at home" are the winners over your rental "people."


No one was cheating the system with cancel and re book. It was also a way sales sold the VIP benefit as a way to rent points to cover maintenance fees. I sat through many presentations where sales touted this loophole to sell the VIP ownership. 
I feel the real winners are the people who learn the system and make it work for their travel needs. I own but can rent from a VIP for 50% less then owning and paying maintenance fees.


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## Richelle (Aug 5, 2020)

dgalati said:


> A few posters forget Wyndham is the largest Mega renter. They rent owners points to their advantage while taking inventory away from owners looking to book personal reservations. How many times have you tried to book a vacation and could not find availability but could rent from Extra Holidays?



Extra holidays come from both Wyndham owned inventory and reservations made by owners and given to EH to rent out.  Its a way for owners to offset their maintenance fees and for Wyndham to get new sales leads.  They are a for-profit company after all.  EH has a terrible return in my opinion and is still risky because they might only rent a portion of their reservation, but it's there.  It means owners don't have to go through the trouble of finding a renter themselves, processing payment, using a guest certificate, handling any questions or complaints, and running the risk that someone does a chargeback.  Wyndham does all that.  Marketing, reservation management, payment processing, chargeback disputes, etc.  For their efforts, Wyndham takes a 40% cut.  Whether it's worth 40% is debatable, but I personally don't think it's worth it.  Then again, I already have a few people I rent to if I know I'll have extra points that I cannot rollover.  Not everyone can figure out that process, or have renters they can trust.  

As far as renting from VIPs, what you forget is while renting from VIPs is great, there are some drawbacks.  First, many renters don't offer refunds.  So if your plans change and you cannot go, you lose that money.  Renting is not a good option for people who's plans and work schedules can change.  With ownership, you can at least get your points back if you cancel more then 15 days out or get the insurance.  Someone who has an unpredictable schedule will more likely get insurance.  Second, the 50% discount happens at the 60-day mark.  Beach locations during summer break are hard to get at the 60-day mark unless you're ok with a one-bedroom.  People that need three or four bedrooms have to book far out, so they don't get that 50% discount.  They pay full price.  Your options are limited if you want a discount.  Third, It's hard to find someone who can book for $7 or less since CWA mf went over $6.  Maintenance fees can be as low at $4.27 per 1,000 points.  Buying on the resale market will not get you VIP, but it will give you more flexibility to reschedule, and gives you more control over your reservations.  If you need that 3 or 4 bedrooms, you can book it farther out, cheaper then renting from a VIP if your maintenance fees are less then $7 per 1,000.  You do have the financial commitment of maintenance fees, but with Ovations, it's easier than ever to dump your timeshare.  Especially for prime contracts that have low maintenance fees.  If you'd prefer not to let Wyndham have free inventory to sell, or Ovation goes away, you won't have a problem finding a taker for that low mf contract.  I know you like to repeat over and over how you like renting from a VIP, you should also provide the disclaimer that the discount is for reservations of 60 days or less.  The salespeople like to leave out that important tidbit of information to make people think they are getting a better deal then they are.  You're not a salesperson, so don't forget to add the disclaimer.  "I can rent from a VIP at a 50% discount on my reservations made less than 60 days from check-in".


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## Eric B (Aug 5, 2020)

Gotta agree with @Richelle, The way I look at it, my Bali Hai contracts cost me $3.77 + $0.64 per thousand points, which is already a 37.3% discount on the CWA costs.  When I book as a VIPG in the discount window, I can get 35% off from that and the occasional upgrade, so I'm not really looking for trying to rent from a VIPP in the 50% discount window.  I kind of figure that unless it's someone I know really well, they probably wouldn't pass enough of the savings on to beat what I already get, plus I am able to make plans further in advance.

Frankly, with all the last minute options in the shoulder and low seasons that are out there in all the other systems it's not too tough to find small TS unit availability inexpensively without renting from a Wyndham VIPP.


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## dgalati (Aug 5, 2020)

.


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## dgalati (Aug 5, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Extra holidays come from both Wyndham owned inventory and reservations made by owners and given to EH to rent out.  Its a way for owners to offset their maintenance fees and for Wyndham to get new sales leads.  They are a for-profit company after all.  EH has a terrible return in my opinion and is still risky because they might only rent a portion of their reservation, but it's there.  It means owners don't have to go through the trouble of finding a renter themselves, processing payment, using a guest certificate, handling any questions or complaints, and running the risk that someone does a chargeback.  Wyndham does all that.  Marketing, reservation management, payment processing, chargeback disputes, etc.  For their efforts, Wyndham takes a 40% cut.  Whether it's worth 40% is debatable, but I personally don't think it's worth it.  Then again, I already have a few people I rent to if I know I'll have extra points that I cannot rollover.  Not everyone can figure out that process, or have renters they can trust.
> 
> As far as renting from VIPs, what you forget is while renting from VIPs is great, there are some drawbacks.  First, many renters don't offer refunds.  So if your plans change and you cannot go, you lose that money.  Renting is not a good option for people who's plans and work schedules can change.  With ownership, you can at least get your points back if you cancel more then 15 days out or get the insurance.  Someone who has an unpredictable schedule will more likely get insurance.  Second, the 50% discount happens at the 60-day mark.  Beach locations during summer break are hard to get at the 60-day mark unless you're ok with a one-bedroom.  People that need three or four bedrooms have to book far out, so they don't get that 50% discount.  They pay full price.  Your options are limited if you want a discount.  Third, It's hard to find someone who can book for $7 or less since CWA mf went over $6.  Maintenance fees can be as low at $4.27 per 1,000 points.  Buying on the resale market will not get you VIP, but it will give you more flexibility to reschedule, and gives you more control over your reservations.  If you need that 3 or 4 bedrooms, you can book it farther out, cheaper then renting from a VIP if your maintenance fees are less then $7 per 1,000.  You do have the financial commitment of maintenance fees, but with Ovations, it's easier than ever to dump your timeshare.  Especially for prime contracts that have low maintenance fees.  If you'd prefer not to let Wyndham have free inventory to sell, or Ovation goes away, you won't have a problem finding a taker for that low mf contract.  I know you like to repeat over and over how you like renting from a VIP, you should also provide the disclaimer that the discount is for reservations of 60 days or less.  The salespeople like to leave out that important tidbit of information to make people think they are getting a better deal then they are.  You're not a salesperson, so don't forget to add the disclaimer.  "I can rent from a VIP at a 50% discount on my reservations made less than 60 days from check-in".


LOL! @Richelle  As you asked I will add the disclaimer to all posts moving forward.


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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2020)

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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2020)

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