# Hydronic vs electric snow melt systems



## Rose Pink (Nov 28, 2013)

We've been wanting a heated driveway for years and will never get one due to costs of installation and operating the thing. 

However, I am seriously considering something for the front porch steps and walkway which are treacherous when they ice up. I use huge quantities of ice melt pellets each winter.

I purchased Heat Trak Mats a few years back and use those on the steps but they have their own problems such as cupping which leads to puddling of the melted snow. And they can be a tripping hazard, too. Plus, the electrical cords must have an outlet and I only have one on the porch which means it has to be dedicated to the mats during the freezing months--and I am limited by voltage to how many mats I can plug in.

It seems to me that an electric system vs hydronic is better since there are less parts to break and need maintenance but electric costs might be higher. However, since we are already using the heated mats, I don't think this will factor in much.

Do any of you have built in systems to melt snow and ice? What are the pros and cons of what you have? TIA

(P.S. I have a wonderful neighbor who shovels snow for me but he might not be around forever and he has a life, too.  He can't be at my beck and call for snow shoveling duties.  Even after the shoveling, snow melt can run over the concrete walkway and refreeze into black ice.)


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## ronparise (Nov 29, 2013)

This probably wont be any help, but Id get outta there.  Whenever I hear a story like yours, Im convinced I did the right thing 20 years ago, when I moved to Florida.   You could join us, or just use your timeshares to become a snowbird.


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## SMHarman (Nov 29, 2013)

Are the costs of running these things really that high.

I agree, unless you have a need to dig up and replace the driveway the installation costs are high but if you are doing that then installing is worthwhile.

The cable does not run close together as it only needs to heat to barely above freezing so it was my understanding that the actual electricity cost over a winter season was lower than paying to shovel / shoveling yourself etc.

http://www.drivewayheating.com/site/page/heated-driveway-faq

Indicates that for an 100 sq ft of driveway it costs 28c/hr to run the system and it is only on when it is snowing and below 38f.

100 sqft is about 110 ft length of 9 ft wide driveway - that's quite a drive - 5+ cars.  A 7 Seat SUV/Van is about 17ft long, so 5-6 could fit on that drive.


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## csxjohn (Nov 29, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> Are the costs of running these things really that high.
> 
> I agree, unless you have a need to dig up and replace the driveway the installation costs are high but if you are doing that then installing is worthwhile.
> 
> ...



110 X 9 = 990 Sq Ft

100 Sq Ft would be 11 X 9.  That's not a lot of driveway.


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## ricoba (Nov 29, 2013)

ronparise said:


> This probably wont be any help, but Id get outta there.  Whenever I hear a story like yours, Im convinced I did the right thing 20 years ago, when I moved to Florida.   You could join us, or just use your timeshares to become a snowbird.



You know, I agree.  

But I know that many people love to live in places where they have four seasons and they do like the snow and cold.  But like you, I am not one of them.


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## Rose Pink (Dec 2, 2013)

I enjoyed your comments and observations.  Moving to a snow-free clime is not an option.  DH is staying put.  He travels all over the USA and this is where he wants to call home.  He hated this house when we first bought it and balked at any remodeling I wanted to do.  So, I'd just start knocking out walls or hiring contractors when he was out of town.  He'd get angry but eventually would pitch in and started helping.  He's built some arches he is particularly proud of.  Now, he says the house looks very nice and he has no intention of ever moving.  I cannot tolerate heat.  It even gets too hot for me here in the summers.  So grateful for AC.

 Anyway, I was hoping one of TUG's resident engineers (or anyone with experience with these systems) could steer me in the right direction.


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## SMHarman (Dec 2, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> 110 X 9 = 990 Sq Ft
> 
> 100 Sq Ft would be 11 X 9.  That's not a lot of driveway.





OK, So I still say the electric approach is cheap compared to paying the contractor to rip up the surface of your drive with his plough and paying someone else to resurface every few years.


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## easyrider (Dec 3, 2013)

These snow and ice removal systems are best installed when building your driveway, not after. Here is an alternative that you can use in a weed sprayer.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bare-Ground-5-gal-Liquid-Anti-Snow-De-Icer-BG-5P/100498360#.Up1kDdJDv8M

If ice gets ahead of you then its time for an ice torch.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bare-Gro...i_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969#.Up1lHtJDv8M

I have a plow and some shovels but would rather spray the bare ground solution before a storm as my driveways are steep.

Bill


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## Rose Pink (Dec 3, 2013)

Thank you, Bill!!!!!

 I had not heard of those products.  The ice torch sounds like a lot of fun.  Could have used that on many occasions.  We will look into the spray solution.  I read the reviews and agree it beats having the salt melt pellets tracked into the house.

 For the record, I was thinking of installing the heated cable system during a remodel of the front yard, not as an afterthought to existing concrete.  It would be a new installation in new concrete.  I'm still in the dreaming and research stage of the project.  These other products will be great help in the meantime. 

 Again, thank you!


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## Rose Pink (Dec 6, 2013)

Went to Home Depot.  Clerk had never heard of the Bare Ground liquid and they didn't carry it in-store.  He said it sounded like a great idea and didn't know why they wouldn't carry it.  I saw some guy walking around with an ice torch but it was the last one in stock.  I thought about chasing him down but thought better of it.  

 Anyway, I ordered the torch and the liquid w/ a sprayer.  Should get them in about two weeks or less.  I am like a kid waiting for Christmas.  I hope that ice torch is as much fun as I imagine it to be.  

 Still, I would like more info on imbedded electric ice melt systems or how to pick out a good contractor for installation.  I don't want to pay more than necessary and I especially don't want a shoddy job done that will cost more to replace.


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## Rose Pink (Dec 6, 2013)

I am wondering if burying the cables below gravel and pavers would work.  Then, if one needed to be replaced or repaired, we wouldn't have to break up the concrete.


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## csxjohn (Dec 6, 2013)

Rose Pink said:


> I am wondering if burying the cables below gravel and pavers would work.  Then, if one needed to be replaced or repaired, we wouldn't have to break up the concrete.



You just hit on the biggest problem with putting wires or steam pipes under concrete.

The ground continually heaves and recedes with temperature changes.  Eventually the wires or pipes end up breaking and become useless.  I don't see why they wouldn't work under paver bricks.  


The spray on stuff intrigues me but the cost seems awfully high.  I'd like to find out what it is made of and make my own.  It wouldn't surprise me if it's just calcium chloride, sodium chloride or a similar substance  mixed with water.

Let us know how it all works out and make sure you clean that sprayer after each use.


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## SMHarman (Dec 6, 2013)

Rose Pink said:


> I am wondering if burying the cables below gravel and pavers would work.  Then, if one needed to be replaced or repaired, we wouldn't have to break up the concrete.





csxjohn said:


> You just hit on the biggest problem with putting wires or steam pipes under concrete.
> 
> The ground continually heaves and recedes with temperature changes.  Eventually the wires or pipes end up breaking and become useless.  I don't see why they wouldn't work under paver bricks.
> 
> ...



I put this in as heating in my last home.  The floor started with a thick styrofoam (necessary as this is indoor) then sand to level, the cable was laid on the sand then the concrete poured (if I recall correctly).  

I think you could just put it in the sand sub surface of a block / paver drive.


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## hvacrsteve (Dec 15, 2013)

*snowmelt.*

Dear Rose,
I haven't on TUG in ages, but I am a professional at snow melt and HVAC projects in general.
If you are redoing the driveway anyway, the best solution is to use PEX tubing.
I didn't look to see where you live but you have to see what level of snow melt is required, there are 5 different design levels based on annual snow fall amounts etc.
You want to also imbed a couple empty tubes with temperature sensors in them to control it.
You can use a cheap hot water heater, electric or gas, you will need an pump, some controls and some glycol to keep it from freezing!
It can be a fairly simple system to install or you can make it complicated.
I have done them anywhere from about $5,000.00 for a small space to $300,000 for commercial spaces.
I have over 13,000 feet of this tubing in my house, driveway, sidewalks and garage!  I would not want to be without it!
I have done some of the most prestigious homes in the DC area with snow melt.


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## hvacrsteve (Dec 15, 2013)

One more note of importance, whether you use tubing or wire, make sure you do multiple circuits, and headers if using pex so if you do have a break, it is not completely broken, Once an electric system gets old it normally corrodes and breaks.  Pex is rated for 300 year life span!  huge difference, I have had mine since 2005 with no issues!


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## Rose Pink (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks, Steve. We will take all that into account. I doubt we will redo our driveway for several years but I am thinking of remodeling the steps and walkway. I don't want to tear out the porch and steps as they are very solid and would make a good base for an overlay. However, there is only about four inches from the top of the porch to the threshold of the front door. It is in an overhang from the roof so that part doesn't get wet unless the wind blows in the snow. I am trying to figure out if four inches is enough space for tubing or cable, the sand that goes over it and a thin paver or stone. 

I wouldn't even worry about heating the porch except the edge of it does get snow and ice crusted on it. If I bring the first step up even with the porch, I have plenty of room to heat that step and all the ones below it (raising each one). If I butt the cable or tubing  up against the porch edge, would that be enough to melt the snow/ice without having to actually have to have any cable/tubing on the porch itself?

And, how do I go about finding a reliable contractor in my neck of the woods? I am far from Virginia.


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## Rose Pink (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, I tried to "draw" a picture but TUG won't post it the way I spaced it.  IOW, it wouldn't acknowledge my spacing.


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## csxjohn (Dec 16, 2013)

Rose Pink said:


> Well, I tried to "draw" a picture but TUG won't post it the way I spaced it.  IOW, it wouldn't acknowledge my spacing.



It's not just TUG.  This is being discussed in the thread about the weekly rant in relation to double spaces at the end of sentences not showing up in browsers.


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## PigsDad (Dec 16, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> It's not just TUG.  This is being discussed in the thread about the weekly rant in relation to double spaces at the end of sentences not showing up in browsers.


That is the way HTML works.  Has been since day 1 of the HTML specification.  I can't believe people still discuss it. 

For a site like this, you can use the "CODE" tag to line up text drawings.  Everything inside the tags will be displayed in a fixed-width font and spaces preserved.  This is a simple example:

```
|   |    |
|   |    |
|---|----|
|   |    |
```

Kurt


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## Rose Pink (Dec 16, 2013)

I know nothing of HTML or computer coding.  Where do I find the CODE tag you speak of?  Thanks.


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## PigsDad (Dec 16, 2013)

Rose Pink said:


> I know nothing of HTML or computer coding.  Where do I find the CODE tag you speak of?  Thanks.



When you are composing a post, click on the "#" icon at the top.  Anything you put in between the "CODE" tags will keep your spaces.

For an example, you can see what my post above looks like by clicking the "Quote" icon, and it will show how I used the "CODE" tag in my post.

Kurt


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## Passepartout (Dec 16, 2013)

PigsDad said:


> When you are composing a post, click on the "#" icon at the top.  Anything you put in between the "CODE" tags will keep your spaces.



OMG! I learn something every day from hanging around you smart people. Makes me wonder what all those other little pictures up there do.


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## hvacrsteve (Dec 17, 2013)

If you give me your zip code and a scope of work, I can find you one.

If its a small job, you probably want find anyone interested though.

You could also ask your current HVAC or electrical contractor, I always help out other companies that I know do good work!


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## Rose Pink (Dec 17, 2013)

PigsDad said:


> When you are composing a post, click on the "#" icon at the top. Anything you put in between the "CODE" tags will keep your spaces.
> 
> For an example, you can see what my post above looks like by clicking the "Quote" icon, and it will show how I used the "CODE" tag in my post.
> 
> Kurt





Passepartout said:


> OMG! I learn something every day from hanging around you smart people. Makes me wonder what all those other little pictures up there do.



I know!  I've seen all those little icons, too, but was afraid to click on them for fear of crashing TUG.   (You'll note I've got the smilies down.)


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## Rose Pink (Dec 17, 2013)

hvacrsteve said:


> If you give me your zip code and a scope of work, I can find you one.
> 
> If its a small job, you probably want find anyone interested though.
> 
> You could also ask your current HVAC or electrical contractor, I always help out other companies that I know do good work!



I guess we could check with the electricians who service our furnace, etc.  I hadn't thought of that.  If that doesn't work out, I will PM you with my ZIP info. Thanks!


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## csxjohn (Dec 17, 2013)

Rose Pink said:


> I know!  I've seen all those little icons, too, but was afraid to click on them for fear of crashing TUG.   (You'll note I've got the smilies down.)



Experiment with them.  Click on one then write some kind of answer and preview your post to see what it does.  I recently learned about the one that crosses out what you highlight.  It's the ABC with a line running through it.

ABCDEFG


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