# Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}



## aruba72

Go to https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/index.html and log on.


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## Ann in CA

Weeks Purchased From Marriott or through an approved broker

Enroll 1 Week
$595

Enroll 2 or more weeks
Only $695
Weeks Purchased From Third Party*

Enroll 1 Week
$1,495

Enroll 2 or more weeks
Only $1,995
Interesting that the link which will tell how much each individual week is worth does not work--says to call the 800 #


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## davidvel

*"Benefits" of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program*

Here's some details from the MVCI website about the new program. 
Best language:


> *1Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program's ability to confirm a specific exchange request is dependant upon the timeshare interests and use periods available or as provided by the provider of accommodations or services. Therefore, Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program cannot guarantee specific resort choices, dates of travel, or types or sizes of accommodations. The earlier an exchange is requested, the better the possibility that a specific request may be confirmed.*





> As always with Marriott Vacation Club, the choice is yours—your ownership will not change and will only be
> enhanced with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program if you decide to enroll.
> 
> For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!
> 
> When you enroll in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program usage option, you will enjoy even more flexibility and ease-of-use than ever before.
> 
> Benefits of the Program
> Ease of Use at Marriott Vacation Club Resorts
> 
> •Choose any Marriott Vacation Club Resort
> •Check-in any day of the week, any season of the year
> •Choose a length-of-stay that's right for you-from a single night to a multi-week vacation
> •Select the accommodations size that fit your needs for each vacation
> —from a studio to a 3-bedroom townhouse
> 
> Simplified Fees
> 
> •Pay a single consolidated annual fee for all your bookings
> (instead of individual fees for each transaction)
> •The fee covers changing your reservation or length of stay, Interval International membership,
> lock off, and more
> •The fee is now only $165* [ANNUAL FEE]
> 
> •Bank Vacation Club Points from your current year balance to be used next year
> •Borrow Vacation Club Points from the next year's balance and add to your current year
> •Use Vacation Club Points to explore new vacation options or use your week
> —just as you have in the past


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## Steve

Hi all,

Please post details about the new Marriott Destinations program here in this thread rather than starting new threads about it.  This way we can keep the discussion in one place.

Thanks!  It's fun to finally have some facts about this.

Steve
TUG Moderator


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## NWL

The basics of the plan are exactly what the sales rep at Shadow Ridge told us back in January.  I think the sales department at Shadow Ridge is well run.  No bluffing or false statements.  Just the facts.


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## davidvel

*MFees won't change (its just an exchange program)*

Small print:


> Your current maintenance fees for your week(s) will not be affected by enrollment or your annual election (if any) to use Vacation Club Points.


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## davidvel

*Pricing*

RESALE WEEKS OWNERS PAY A  SURCHARGE:
Explore Pricing and Usage
Enrollment Pricing
Enrolling in Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program requires payment of a one-time, low introductory enrollment fee starting at $595. Pricing for enrollment as follows:

Weeks Purchased From Marriott or through an approved broker
Enroll 1 Week$595
Enroll 2 or more weeks $695

Weeks Purchased From Third Party
Enroll 1 Week $1,495
Enroll 2 or more weeksOnly $1,995
*Enrollment in the program may provide you with the opportunity to exchange for Marriott Rewards Points***

If you enroll two or more weeks that have been purchased from multiple parties (Marriott and a third party), the total cost of enrollment is $1,995.


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## l2trade

*FAQs*

*What are the benefits of enrolling my Marriott Vacation Club Weeks in the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsTM Exchange Program?*
Currently, your options include occupying a week at your home resort during the season you purchased; exchanging your week through membership in Interval International® to visit another destination; and, if eligible, trading your week for Marriott Rewards® points. Once you enroll your Marriott Vacation Club week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsTM Exchange Program, you will add a new usage option. Enrolled Owners may annually elect to deposit their enrolled week(s) in exchange for Vacation Club Points, a flexible new vacation currency. Vacation Club Points may be used to make a reservation directly within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection1 of more than 50 world-class Marriott Vacation Club resorts. And, when you redeem Vacation Club Points for a vacation within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection, you'll be able to choose what size villa you need, check in any day of the week, any time of the year, for any length of stay. Plan a romantic weekend in a 1-bedroom villa; or a family reunion in a 3-bedroom townhouse for 10 nights. The choice is yours. Additionally, Vacation Club Points may be redeemed for a vacation within our new Explorer Collection3, which includes cruises to places such as Alaska and the Caribbean; city tours of destinations including New York, New Orleans, Napa Valley, Washington, D.C., and Seattle; or book a guided tour for a once-in-a-lifetime vacation to diverse locations such as China, Tuscany, Kenya and Egypt; you can even book exciting adventures such as river rafting or a mountain biking trip. Another benefit of enrolling in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program is that the reservation fees would be consolidated in one convenient annual fee called Club Dues. You will pay one reasonable fee rather than paying separate fees for membership with Interval International, trading for Marriott Rewards points or using a Lock-Off option. Depending on how you currently use your Marriott Vacation Club week(s), the savings you could realize from the Club Dues may be reason alone to enroll.


*I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?*
If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).

*Does anything change after I enroll my week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?*
None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. You never have to elect Vacation Club Points unless you want to. When you do elect Vacation Club Points, you will be able to redeem them for a vacation at another Marriott Vacation Club resort directly without exchanging through Interval International. You also will be able to check-in any day of the week, select the villa size that best accommodates your travel party and determine the length of your stay. You are no longer locked into 1-week vacations. Vacation Club Points can also be used for exciting travel adventures through the Explorer Collection.

*Will I receive anything for enrolling?*
If you enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program by December 31, 2010, you'll receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints! These PlusPoints are valid for 2 to 5 additional nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort depending on the resort, room type and season. PlusPoints expire if not used, so be sure to ask your salesperson for details.

*How many Vacation Club Points are my Marriott Vacation Club weeks worth?*
Click here to see how much your week is worth. Click on the week(s) you own to determine how many Vacation Club Points you would receive if you enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program and elect to trade them for Vacation Club Points. The number of Vacation Club Points you may receive for your enrolled week(s) in a given Use Year is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, villa capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other parameters established by the Exchange Company, and may vary periodically based on such factors.

*What are Club Dues?*
Once you enroll, reservation and usage fees such as locking off, membership with Interval International and trading for Marriott Rewards points will be consolidated into one annual, convenient fee called Club Dues. Club Dues are initially set at $165 if you own or have enrolled up to 6,499 Vacation Club Points. Club Dues are initially set at $199 if you own or have enrolled 6,500 or more Vacation Club Points.

*What fees do the Club Dues include?*
Club Dues include membership with Interval International as well as any internal exchanges (requests to travel exclusively to other Marriott Vacation Club resorts). Club Dues also include trading for Marriott Rewards points (for Points Owners and Enrolled Owners whose enrolled week(s) are eligible), locking off or splitting your home resort week (for Enrolled Owners whose enrolled week(s) are eligible), cancellation of a reservation, electing Vacation Club Points and banking, borrowing or transferring Vacation Club Points. Club Dues do not include external exchanges (requests that include resorts outside of the Marriott Vacation Club Collection of resorts through Interval International), Florida Club fees (for weeks involved in the Florida Club) or miscellaneous fees of the Explorer Collection; port fees for cruises as an example.

*What happens to my existing 2011 reservation if I enroll my week(s) now?*
If you have already made a reservation at your home resort, you may either maintain the reservation or cancel it (as long as you are at least 60 days in advance of the check-in date) and use any of your other options including electing Vacation Club Points. The latest date you can elect Vacation Club Points would be December 31, 2010.

*Once I enroll my week(s), how do I elect Vacation Club Points?*
You may elect Vacation Club Points between 25 months and 3 months prior to the year you would like to elect. So, the latest you can elect Vacation Club Points would be September 30 of the year prior. But don't wait. Vacations are generally available about a year in advance, so we encourage you to elect points about a year in advance that way they will be in your account ready to use to reserve your next vacation.

*What happens after I enroll?*
After you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints will be placed in your account. You will receive an email acknowledging that your week(s) have been enrolled. You also will be assigned to a new Vacation Ownership Advisor who will be in touch shortly to assist you with your upcoming vacation plans. Within 2 weeks, you will receive a welcome packet in the mail with a guide that will give you more information about using the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program to plan exciting vacations. You also will be invited to attend an online class, called a Webinar, where we will give you tips and information about your new usage options.

*If I enroll my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, will it affect my current maintenance fee(s)?*
No. The maintenance fee(s) for Marriott Vacation Club weeks will continue to be determined by your home resort(s)' Board of Directors.

*Once I enroll my week(s), can I make a reservation directly within other Marriott Vacation Club resorts without having to go through the Interval International exchange process?*
Yes! If you enroll your week(s) with Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program and elect to receive Vacation Club Points, you can use those points to reserve a vacation directly at another Marriott Vacation Club resort. You'll be able to check-in any day of the week, any season of the year; select the villa size that best fits your traveling party and stay as long as you like—a weekend, 5 nights, 2 weeks ... the choice will be yours. If the vacation is not available to confirm instantly, we may be able to place you on a Wait List. Please note at this time Marriott Vacation Club resorts located in Europe and Asia must still be confirmed through an Interval International internal exchange with no exchange fee for Enrolled Owners.

*Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?*
Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.

*What are the new Collections and vacation options?*
The Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program has grouped our vast system of different vacation options into four "collections." The Marriott Vacation Club Collection includes all of the Marriott Vacation Club resorts worldwide. Once enrolled, you'll be able to reserve vacations at other Marriott Vacation Club resorts directly with your Vacation Club Points. The Marriott Collection1 represents all of the Marriott-branded hotels available to reserve with Marriott Rewards points. If you enroll your week(s), you will continue to have access to this collection when you trade your week for Marriott Rewards points—just as you do today (if your week is eligible). The World Traveler Collection2 is the system of affiliated resorts available for exchange through Interval International. And, some exciting brand-new options are captured under the Explorer Collection: enrolled Owners will be able to redeem Vacation Club Points for cruises, group tours to destinations such as Africa, China, Tuscany and Costa Rica; or plan specially designed city packages and adventures such as river rafting, mountain biking and four-wheel-driving.

*I own several weeks and I'm considering enrolling just one of them to try the new program. Why should I consider enrolling all of them instead of just one?*
There are several benefits when you enroll all of your Marriott Vacation Club weeks instead of just one of them. First, the enrollment fee is being offered at an introductory rate and is likely to increase in the future. By enrolling all of your weeks now, you will pay nominally more than just enrolling 1 week at the introductory price. In addition, if you enroll multiple weeks and they total at least 6,500 Vacation Club Points, you will have an added benefit of paying the consolidated annual Club Dues of $199 for all of your weeks: no more à la carte fees for transactions such as trading for Marriott Rewards points, membership with Interval International or locking off (even if you never elect Vacation Club Points). In addition, owning or enrolling weeks with a value of at least 6,500 Vacation Club Points will earn you "Premier" status (or Premier Plus status if you own or enroll weeks with a value of at least 13,000 Vacation Club Points). Premier and Premier Plus status will afford you advantages related to reservation windows and Vacation Club Points requirements for reservations 13 months in advance.

*Why do I have to pay a fee to enroll my Marriott Vacation Club weeks in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?*
An enrollment fee is required to turn on your new usage option, enabling you to elect to trade your week(s) for Vacation Club Points. These Vacation Club Points may then be used to reserve vacations throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection and plan exciting experiences through the Explorer Collection. In addition, paying to enroll your week(s) in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program means you will now pay annual Club Dues, a single-use fee, which in many cases will save money over the current system of à la carte fees.

*Is the enrollment fee different if I enroll an Every-Other-Year week?*
If you would like to enroll one Every-Other-Year week, you will pay the full enrollment fee. If you enroll two Every-Other-Year weeks simultaneously, you will pay one full enrollment fee, but if you do not enroll them at the same time, you will pay the multiple-week fee at a later time.

*If I enroll an Every-Other-Year week, when can I elect Vacation Club Points?*
Once you've enrolled an Every-Other-Year week, you may elect Vacation Club Points during the years that your usage rights occur. For example, if you own an "odd year" Every-Other-Year week, you may elect Vacation Club Points for your 2013, 2015 and 2017 usage, and so on. All reservation windows apply, and you may still bank, borrow or transfer Vacation Club Points as per the normal reservation rules.

*What are my Club Dues for an Every-Other-Year week that I enrolled?*
Once you enroll your Every-Other-Year week, you will pay annual Club Dues as you will have access to other program features such as banking, borrowing and membership with Interval International.

*If I purchase Beneficial Interests after I enroll my week, will I have different Use Years?*
The Use Year of the Beneficial Interest(s) will be forward-dated to match the Use Year of your initial week that you enrolled (January to December). Therefore, your Use Years will be aligned.


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## californiagirl

Are you logging into your vacation club page to get the details?  I have clicked on the link provided and it just seems to be basic info.  What link did you use to get the pricing to join?

Just at first glance.  With banking and borrowing, it changes our EOY use.  It appears we would not need to travel only in "even" years.  We could bank our 2010 points into 2011 and go then!

I'm anxious to learn all the details.


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## SueDonJ

Well, I'm not completely certain, but this looks pretty good.  I'm looking forward to seeing it dissected it here.


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## NWL

davidvel said:


> RESALE WEEKS OWNERS PAY A  SURCHARGE:
> Explore Pricing and Usage
> Enrollment Pricing
> Enrolling in Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program requires payment of a one-time, low introductory enrollment fee starting at $595. Pricing for enrollment as follows:
> 
> Weeks Purchased From Marriott or through an approved broker
> Enroll 1 Week$595
> Enroll 2 or more weeks $695
> 
> Weeks Purchased From Third Party
> Enroll 1 Week $1,495
> Enroll 2 or more weeksOnly $1,995
> *Enrollment in the program may provide you with the opportunity to exchange for Marriott Rewards Points***
> 
> If you enroll two or more weeks that have been purchased from multiple parties (Marriott and a third party), the total cost of enrollment is $1,995.



David, you are on vacation.  Stop this crazy updating!!!!


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## Andar

*Can someone explain this to me*

Site Is Down
This page is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later or call Owner Services at 1-800-845-4226.

I think we crashed their server for the week valuation.  


Is the $168 annual club fee there even if you don't convert to points that year but stay at your home resort?   If you are exchanging for points and plan on using them on for Marriott properties and Hotels, why would you pay II?   Now we use our MR points for reservations for hotels without fees.


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## Ann in CA

*Offering bonus points "Plus Points" for buying more points by Aug. 13*

This is the part I saw first as I was googling Marriott Points Program...I thought it was for new points purchasers, but perhaps also for those with weeks that don't pull the number of points they want.  That points value of weeks link still doesn't work!

"Earn 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints for a limited time

As a Marriott Vacation Club Owner, you'll always enjoy a lifetime of unforgettable vacations. And now until August 13, 2010, when you purchase Vacation Club Points at a special price, you'll receive 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints.

Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints are not offered at Marriott’s Frenchman’s Cove, Marriott’s St. Kitts Beach Club, Marriott’s Village d’lle-de-France, Marriott’s Playa Andaluza, Marriott’s Club Son Antem, Marriott’s Marbella Beach Resort, and Marriott’s Phuket Beach Club.

To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York.

As a Marriott Vacation Club Owner, you'll always enjoy a lifetime of unforgettable vacations. And now until August 13, 2010, when you purchase Vacation Club Points at a special price, you'll receive 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints.

Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints are not offered at Marriott’s Frenchman’s Cove, Marriott’s St. Kitts Beach Club, Marriott’s Village d’lle-de-France, Marriott’s Playa Andaluza, Marriott’s Club Son Antem, Marriott’s Marbella Beach Resort, and Marriott’s Phuket Beach Club.

To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York.

What are Vacation Club PlusPoints?

Vacation Club PlusPoints are good toward an array of exciting vacation options, including stays at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or adventure travel packages.
Unlike Vacation Club Points that renew each year, Vacation Club PlusPoints can only be used once
You may combine Vacation Club PlusPoints with your annual Vacation Club Points to create a bigger bank of points and enjoy multiple vacations or a dream vacation of a lifetime.
What can you do with Vacation Club PlusPoints?

With 2,000 Vacation Club PlusPoints, you can relax for 5 nights in a 2-bedroom Oceanview villa at Marriott’s Oceana Palms in the Palm Beaches, Florida.

With 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints, you can enjoy 13 days and 12 nights for two exploring the splendors of the Nile, including a deluxe 4-night cruise on the Nile River.

These are just two examples from a wide range of available options. With Vacation Club Plus Points, you can visit new destinations or enhance your current vacations. The choice is yours.

This special offer is available only for a limited time.

Request Information

or Call 1-800-307-7312

Promo Code: 2J31J0

SPONSOR : Marriott Vacation Club International

ELIGIBILIT Y: The offer of Vacation Club PlusPoints is for first-time Vacation Club points purchasers only. Purchasers are not eligible for the Vacation Club points offer if they currently have a contract pending or on hold, or if they have cancelled a contract within the last 90 days.

OFFER : Purchaser must initiate, sign and return contract to Marriott Vacation Club, attention: Central Sales Distribution, 6649 Westwood Boulevard, Suite 500, Orlando, Florida, 32821 no later than August 13, 2010 in order to receive the Vacation Club PlusPoints offer. Minimum purchase price to receive Vacation Club PlusPoints is $14,010. The amount of PlusPoints awarded depends on the amount of Vacation Club Points purchased, ranging from 2000 Vacation Club PlusPoints awarded for the purchase of 6 beneficial interests (equivalent to a $14,010 purchase) to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints for the purchase of 31 or more beneficial interests (equivalent to a purchase of $72,385 or more). Vacation Club PlusPoints will be posted to the appropriate account seven (7) days following the completion of the Vacation Club points purchase transaction. Vacation Club PlusPoints expire December 31, 2011. Offer subject to change without notice. Offer not valid in conjunction with any other promotional offer. Offer is nontransferable.

This is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation to buy to residents in jurisdictions in which registration requirements have not been fulfilled, and your eligibility and the resorts available for purchase will depend upon the state of residency of the purchaser."


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## Ann in CA

californiagirl said:


> Are you logging into your vacation club page to get the details?  I have clicked on the link provided and it just seems to be basic info.  What link did you use to get the pricing to join?
> 
> Just at first glance.  With banking and borrowing, it changes our EOY use.  It appears we would not need to travel only in "even" years.  We could bank our 2010 points into 2011 and go then!
> 
> I'm anxious to learn all the details.



Yes you have to log in to see the details.  Although the part I posted above was from "What is Marriott Vacation Club" before I logged in.


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## l2trade

*Kudos to Tugger who finds Exception to the No Resale Rule*

You must close on the Marriott resale purchase before 6/20/2010.  It is too late to buy resale now & be officially eligible to join the new program.  I would hope Marriott finds a reasonable exception to this rule for future resale buyers.  I see Marriott priced initial enrollment higher for existing resale buyers.  I am ok with that difference.  What about FUTURE resale buyers.  Does Marriott want me?  I waited for the details, now I see no reason to rush to buy if I cannot join the new program.  Without an exception, I might as well wait to see if folks who don't join remain happy with their home resort season availability.


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## brigechols

Ownership levels

Owner - Up to 6499 Marriott Vacation Club points, may make a reservation for 7 nights or more within 12 months of checkin; or spend 20% more points to make reservations within 13 months of checkin

Owner with Premier Status - 6500 to 12999 Marriott Vacation Club points, may make reservations  for 7 nights or more within 13 months of checkin

Owner with Premier Plus Status - 13,000 or more Marriott Vacation Club points, may make reservations for any number of nights within 13 months of checkin

 The number of Vacation Club Points you receive varies based on the season, room size and view of the week(s) that you enroll.


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## DB-Wis

These changes hardly seem to have warranted almost 3,000 postings, many of which expressing great angst at the grave injustice to which we were all about to be subjected.  Just think how all of our properties might have benefited if that energy had been devoted to working constructively to address real issues rather than wringing hands for months speculating, analyzing and fretting over a parade of horribles that never appeared.


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## l2trade

I really wish Marriott had allowed at least some period of time for future resale purchase to qualify.  This would have allowed excitement from the new program to lift the resale market.  It would have provided more buyer demand for existing owners wanting a way out.  Marriott gave me no reason to buy resale right now and no reason the past 6 months during all the rumors.  Does that mean Marriott will now start exercising ROFR?  LOL


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## davidvel

NWL said:


> David, you are on vacation.  Stop this crazy updating!!!!


NWL: Everyone's asleep and I have no good spirits to help me to sleep.  

Here's the last...This languane is troublesome:



> As an Owner who purchased prior to the launch of Marriott Vacation Club Destinations, you have the option to *enroll in an exchange program providing for your existing use options* plus access to the Marriott Vacation Club Exchange Program with an additional Annual Use election, Vacation Club Points.


Does this mean your enrollment transfers your reservation rights to them ("your existing use options")?


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## californiagirl

I wonder why Frenchman's Cove is excluded?  Must have something to do with USVI law perhaps?


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## urple2

l2trade said:


> You must close on the Marriott resale purchase before 6/20/2010.  It is too late to buy resale now & be officially eligible to join the new program.  I would hope Marriott finds a reasonable exception to this rule for future resale buyers.  I see Marriott priced initial enrollment higher for existing resale buyers.  I am ok with that difference.  What about FUTURE resale buyers.  Does Marriott want me?  I waited for the details, now I see no reason to rush to buy if I cannot join the new program.  Without an exception, I might as well wait to see if folks who don't join remain happy with their home resort season availability.




Exactly! and hey, the price will be cheaper being the outsider who can't get into the new points program... Everyone loses eventually.


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## urple2

californiagirl said:


> I wonder why Frenchman's Cove is excluded?  Must have something to do with USVI law perhaps?



I don't know but for 1,495 I might be able to get one of those on ebay...Will be a helluva trader in II.


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## NWL

davidvel said:


> NWL: Everyone's asleep and I have no good spirits to help me to sleep.



I have them and I'm still posting!   It will be interesting to see the comments yet to come.  Have a great time at Shadow Ridge!

Cheers!

Edit:  our sales rep described the new program as a way to trade your 7 day week into individual nights to trade.  Maybe the language you posted refers to this statement?


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## davidvel

*Point  Value Mrd*

I lied(not my last post). Shadow Ridge Gold is worth 2,325 MVCD points. 

Here are the docs if you want to bore (inform) yourself:

http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tugpoints


But I only need 1950 to book the same week???


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## californiagirl

So I wonder if the point value for a given resort week will change depending on demand of that particular week/resort?  So many answers, so few people awake to answer!  (It is only 11:04 in the west.)


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## winger

*So, for interested multiple-week owners who already gave away one 2011 week to II ?*

What if an owner owns 2 developer weeks - where one 2011 week is reserved at his home resort, and the second 2011 week has already been reserved at his home resort BUT that week has been deposited with II (for a pending, deposit-first request) ?

Is Marriott going to allow the conversion of both of the owner's units by the 12/31/2010 posted deadline (I assume the deadline is for the special introductory enrollment rates of $595 and $695 for single and multiple weeks being converted)?

**********
BTW, from what I have read, since we purchased our Marriott ownership mainly to trade/exchange, *I think this new system would work out for us* since the annual club fee ($165 now) covers the conversion to MRP fee, II membership, unit-split option, and internal Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges (which II now charges like $110?).  It seems we can continue trading (even to other Marriotts) thru II, but in those instances we do incur the additional II fee (approx $110? for Marriott or approx $140? for non-Marriott).   IF I had purchased mainly to occupy my unit, joining the new club makes no sense (one-time upfront join fee + recurring annual club due).

For multiple week owners who exchange through II (either to other Marriotts or not), this program is very nice in that it saves them exchange fee $$$'s.


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## californiagirl

How did you find the point value for SR??? All I get is a "site down" message when I click on what is my week worth.  Never mind, I found the info in the pdf file.  Thank you for the link.


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## winger

californiagirl said:


> How did you find the point value for SR??? All I get is a "site down" message when I click on what is my week worth.  Never mind, I found the info in the pdf file.  Thank you for the link.


what PDF file?  Yes, the site is really not working right now. It keeps redirecting me to the old/MVCI site.


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## SueDonJ

David, nice job, thanks.   

But I'm confused.  Where are you finding the value for your week?  I see your points chart PDF and figured out you're looking at a 2BR for the week you're there now, for 1,950.  But I can't find where you got the value for your week's ownership.  Help?


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## davidvel

The pdf points structure file lists the cost to get a week, not the *value of your week in points.* At least for Shadow Ridge, the trade in value in points in more than what it takes to reserve the week (meaning some people willl not get therir trade??)

To find out your week's value you have to click ENROLL at MVCI owners site and it will tell you. PLEASE POST YOUR RESULTS HERE!!!!


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## urple2

> Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points *or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.*



Am i reading this correctly? they'll take the marriott inventory out of Interval to fulfill the Points reservations requirement?


----------



## californiagirl

Thanks David!


----------



## davidvel

urple2 said:


> Am i reading this correctly? they'll take the marriott inventory out of Interval to fulfill the Points reservations requirement?



wow what a can of worms......let the games (PERRYM) begin.....


----------



## SueDonJ

davidvel said:


> The pdf points structure file lists the cost to get a week, not the *value of your week in points.* At least for Shadow Ridge, the trade in value in points in more than what it takes to reserve the week (meaning some people willl not get therir trade??)
> 
> To find out your week's value you have to click ENROLL at MVCI owners site and it will tell you. PLEASE POST YOUR RESULTS HERE!!!!



Excellent, thanks!


----------



## brigechols

Grande Vista, Platinum Season, 3 BR, 3725 points assigned to owner;  following points needed to reserve same size unit for a week using points (depends on requested time frame):  2500, 3400, 3900, 4225, 4775

Ko Olina, Platinum Season, 2 BR Penthouse Island View, 4025 points assigned to owner; following points need to reserve same size unit for a week using points (depends on requested time frame): 4050, 4575, 4800, 5550 for platinum plus


----------



## urple2

davidvel said:


> wow what a can of worms......let the games (PERRYM) begin.....



This almost seems to make it a mandatory purchase if you want the opportunity to stay at other marriotts...

Wonder who did this negotiating with Interval on this one... or maybe they are getting ready to buy them like Wyndham did RCI.


----------



## californiagirl

The value of my weeks are as follows:

DSV II (Gold)                   2150

Maui Ocean Club              4725

Frenchman's Cove (Silver)  2200     

Not sure why they list our FC week since on the announcement website it states that FC is excluded. 

At first glance it looks very similar to DVC.  Marriott just added a zero to the point amounts needed per night.


----------



## VacationPro

Manor Club Platinum 2375 (Original Section,2BR)
Newport Coast Platinum 3475


----------



## dougp26364

winger said:


> What if an owner owns 2 developer weeks - where one 2011 week is reserved at his home resort, and the second 2011 week has already been reserved at his home resort BUT that week has been deposited with II (for a pending, deposit-first request) ?
> 
> Is Marriott going to allow the conversion of both of the owner's units by the 12/31/2010 posted deadline (I assume the deadline is for the special introductory enrollment rates of $595 and $695 for single and multiple weeks being converted)?
> 
> **********
> BTW, from what I have read, since we purchased our Marriott ownership mainly to trade/exchange, *I think this new system would work out for us* since the annual club fee ($165 now) covers the conversion to MRP fee, II membership, unit-split option, and internal Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges (which II now charges like $110?).  It seems we can continue trading (even to other Marriotts) thru II, but in those instances we do incur the additional II fee (approx $110? for Marriott or approx $140? for non-Marriott).   IF I had purchased mainly to occupy my unit, joining the new club makes no sense (one-time upfront join fee + recurring annual club due).
> 
> For multiple week owners who exchange through II (either to other Marriotts or not), this program is very nice in that it saves them exchange fee $$$'s.



The weeks you've deposited with Interval will continue exactly as they are now. They will remain deposited with Interval.

I have a reservation for Grand Chateau in the two bedroom master suite but, I've deposited the one bedroom LO with Interval. I don't know if Marriott would allow us to convert our reserved master suite or not. I assume they probably would. In our case, it doesn't matter since we want to use that week. However, the week we've given to Interval is owned by Interval. I don't see getting that week back.

So the question I'll have for them is, what if I want to use my master suite but internal exchange my LO unit. Do I have to put the entire thing into the points program then reserve my home unit through the points program or, can I reserve the master suite and deposit the studio unit as points.

Another question I'll have is, If I join the program and pay the one fee of $165, if I elect to use my master suite but exchange the studio unit (assuming the studio can't be converted to points), will I need a personal account with Interval or, will the corporate account Marriott includes in their annual fee cover exchanging the studio week through Interval, understanding of course that I'll have to pay an I.I. exchange fee to do so.


----------



## californiagirl

David or anyone else, can you find the link for point costs for the other collections?


----------



## SueDonJ

When you all click on the "Enroll Now" button to get your point values are you directed to the "Book My Vacation" page?  That's what I'm getting but the little thing just keeps on spinning with the message, "Please wait while we retrieve your information..."

Grrrrr.


----------



## brigechols

SueDonJ said:


> When you all click on the "Enroll Now" button to get your point values are you directed to the "Book My Vacation" page?  That's what I'm getting but the little thing just keeps on spinning with the message, "Please wait while we retrieve your information..."
> 
> Grrrrr.



No, the next page is entitled "Exchange Program Enrollment" and on that page, place a tick mark in the "I understand" box and select the "Start Enrolling Now" link


----------



## Bruyerebrit

davidvel said:


> The pdf points structure file lists the cost to get a week, not the *value of your week in points.* At least for Shadow Ridge, the trade in value in points in more than what it takes to reserve the week (meaning some people willl not get therir trade??)
> 
> To find out your week's value you have to click ENROLL at MVCI owners site and it will tell you. PLEASE POST YOUR RESULTS HERE!!!!



Thanks David - this is a real minefield.  My interests:

Shadow Ridge Enclaves Platinum: 3,025
Shadow Ridge Villages Silver: 1,825

My first reaction - an INCREDIBLY small difference and some unintentional arbitrage, since I paid relative peanuts for the Silver on EBay and paid through the proverbial nose for Enclaves Platinum (pre-TUG  ).  I'm sure many of us are in the same boat and will analyze this ad nauseum...boy, I haven't wanted to stay up all night and study since...I don't know when!


----------



## SueDonJ

brigechols said:


> Grande Vista, Platinum Season, 3 BR, 3725 points assigned to owner;  following points needed to reserve same size unit for a week using points (depends on requested time frame):  2500, 3400, 3900, 4225, 4775
> 
> Ko Olina, Platinum Season, 2 BR Penthouse Island View, 4025 points assigned to owner; following points need to reserve same size unit for a week using points (depends on requested time frame): 4050, 4575, 4800, 5550 for platinum plus



Wow.  Am I reading this right?  At Grande Vista the points for your Platinum week don't get you into more than half of the calendar?  And at Ko Olina your points value don't get you the same room at all???  That makes no sense.


----------



## DanCali

urple2 said:


> *or exchange their week through membership in Interval International*
> 
> Am i reading this correctly? they'll take the marriott inventory out of Interval to fulfill the Points reservations requirement?



This may refer to people depositing through Marriott rather than through Interval. Of course, it's vague enough so that we may never actually know...



VacationPro said:


> Newport Coast Platinum 3475



Thanks - I've seen enough. For the life of me, I can't see why any NCV Platinum would want to convert. I'll use or rent for now...


----------



## urple2

brigechols said:


> No, the next page is entitled "Exchange Program Enrollment" and on that page, place a tick mark in the "I understand" box and select the "Start Enrolling Now" link



Aah..got it thanks!

Summit Watch Gold. 2150


----------



## dougp26364

So now I'm a little confused by the Ocean Pointe points chart. We own Silver season but, there appear to be multiple points allocations depending on the week you choose for different weeks in what is now Silver season. I wonder if this means some owners will be screwed since none of us had a choice of what week we were assigned when we purchased. 

We own a 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit.If our deeded week happens to fall in Sept, then it's only worth 2,900 points. However, Oct weeks are worth 4,000 points and Nov. to Dec. 20th weeks are worth 5,900 points. So, do you get screwed if you got assigned a bum week way back when Marriott wasn't even thinking about points? I guess I better take a quick look to see what week we were deeded.

I see the same issue with Grand Chateau. Grand Chateau was sold as all platinum weeks with one platinum plus week, yet there are THREE different point values depending on your dates of travel. Which one will we get? Is this a cruel joke played upon those who bought under the old system when Marriott told us it didnt' matter what week was on our deed? Right now I'm not liking the fact they have multiple point valuations yet, when we originally purchased, we weren't given a choice of what week we were assigned. If owners are going to find themselves with different point valuations, then I guess some of us won the lottery and some of us lost, yet we never even knew we were playing or even had a choice.


----------



## SueDonJ

brigechols said:


> No, the next page is entitled "Exchange Program Enrollment" and on that page, place a tick mark in the "I understand" box and select the "Start Enrolling Now" link



Maybe they're rolling it out in stages and they figure us east coast people should be IN BED SLEEPING right now.  :hysterical:   They're probably right - geesh it's late.  Five more minutes, that's all, and I'll look at this in the morning.


----------



## scrapngen

This is just a very quick look, but here's what I see so far:

Waiohai fixed 51 island view:    4225 points
Waiohai fixed 52 island view:    5175 points 
Total 9400 pts which I guess would fit the Premier for 13 month  reservations of 7 or more days. 

Then I was able to download the Points-charts.pdf file - looked at how many points those same weeks with same view would cost someone to reserve with points for 2011, 2012. Very disturbing as the answer is 5075 and 5550 points respectively. So my point value is less than the point chart??
So why again would I want to pay extra when my points won't even be enough to get the same 14 days??? At first view this doesn't look good for my prime HI fixed weeks....:annoyed: 

Just wanted to some specific info out there for you folks to compile. Will continue to investigate...


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> So now I'm a little confused by the Ocean Pointe points chart. We own Silver season but, there appear to be multiple points allocations depending on the week you choose for different weeks in what is now Silver season. I wonder if this means some owners will be screwed since none of us had a choice of what week we were assigned when we purchased.
> 
> We own a 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit.If our deeded week happens to fall in Sept, then it's only worth 2,900 points. However, Oct weeks are worth 4,000 points and Nov. to Dec. 20th weeks are worth 5,900 points. So, do you get screwed if you got assigned a bum week way back when Marriott wasn't even thinking about points? I guess I better take a quick look to see what week we were deeded.



These are the points to book *into* the resort, no? Your allocated points will be some average of the season. It looks like NCV Platinum got more than enough to book mid September to mid-December, but not enough for any summer week. 

Frankly, the way I see it, this program is for some Hawaii owners who want to vacation outside of Hawaii (well, why did they buy Hawaii then?) and people who bought high season but use in off peak weeks... Everyone else is worse off because they can't get the peak weeks in their own season, or trade to similar size units in peak times elsewhere. As an initial reaction, I'd call it a flop from my perspective. I'll let others speak for themselves.


----------



## brigechols

dougp26364 said:


> So now I'm a little confused by the Ocean Pointe points chart. We own Silver season but, there appear to be multiple points allocations depending on the week you choose for different weeks in what is now Silver season. I wonder if this means some owners will be screwed since none of us had a choice of what week we were assigned when we purchased.
> 
> We own a 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit.If our deeded week happens to fall in Sept, then it's only worth 2,900 points. However, Oct weeks are worth 4,000 points and Nov. to Dec. 20th weeks are worth 5,900 points. So, do you get screwed if you got assigned a bum week way back when Marriott wasn't even thinking about points? I guess I better take a quick look to see what week we were deeded.



Do you think Marriott assigned owner vacation points based on your deeded week?


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> So now I'm a little confused by the Ocean Pointe points chart. We own Silver season but, there appear to be multiple points allocations depending on the week you choose for different weeks in what is now Silver season. I wonder if this means some owners will be screwed since none of us had a choice of what week we were assigned when we purchased.
> 
> We own a 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit.If our deeded week happens to fall in Sept, then it's only worth 2,900 points. However, Oct weeks are worth 4,000 points and Nov. to Dec. 20th weeks are worth 5,900 points. So, do you get screwed if you got assigned a bum week way back when Marriott wasn't even thinking about points? I guess I better take a quick look to see what week we were deeded.
> 
> I see the same issue with Grand Chateau. Grand Chateau was sold as all platinum weeks with one platinum plus week, yet there are THREE different point values depending on your dates of travel. Which one will we get? Is this a cruel joke played upon those who bought under the old system when Marriott told us it didnt' matter what week was on our deed? Right now I'm not liking the fact they have multiple point valuations yet, when we originally purchased, we weren't given a choice of what week we were assigned. If owners are going to find themselves with different point valuations, then I guess some of us won the lottery and some of us lost, yet we never even knew we were playing or even had a choice.



Are you sure you're not confusing the Usage Point Chart (Davidvel's PDF file) with the value of your weeks?  Did you get your weeks' value at that "Enroll Now" link?


----------



## tahoeJoe

*I hope I'm wrong*



urple2 said:


> *Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?*Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.





urple2 said:


> Am i reading this correctly? they'll take the marriott inventory out of Interval to fulfill the Points reservations requirement?



I read it the same way. If true this is HUGE!!!  Existing Marriott owners who don't submit to Marriott's extortion will not have any chance to trade into other Marriott resorts. I don't know how this can be legal.  

-TJ


----------



## Bruyerebrit

SueDonJ said:


> Wow.  Am I reading this right?  At Grande Vista the points for your Platinum week don't get you into more than half of the calendar?  And at Ko Olina your points value don't get you the same room at all???  That makes no sense.



Same for me at Shadow Ridge and I'm sure most of us will find the same story.  It does make sense, unfortunately..and here's where some of the tarnish of the new program comes off.  You want a week in what you knew as your season, reserve and occupy it and that's that.  What we've lost I think is the arbitrage (i.e., leverage). That trade I did through II a few months ago, exchanging my silver lock-off for a gold 2 bedroom, both at my home resort.....gone, a thing of the past (once and assuming Marriott gains control of banked weeks).

I'm pragmatic...I recognize there may be a lot to like about the new program and some former features may be gone.  Just as people used the old program differently and got more or less out of it depending on their objectives and skills, so it will be with the new.

Jeremy


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> These are the points to book *into* the resort, no? Your allocated points will be some average of the season. It looks like NCV Platinum got more than enough to book mid September to mid-December, but not enough for any summer week.



Hmmm.  I still can't access that "Enroll Now" link but what you say here is somewhat encouraging - your usage point charts for Barony Beach and SurfWatch aren't too far off the Seasons on the current calendar, maybe a week here or there.


----------



## Bruyerebrit

tahoeJoe said:


> I read it the same way. If true this is HUGE!!!  Existing Marriott owners who don't submit to Marriott's extortion will not have any chance to trade into other Marriott resorts. I don't know how this can be legal.
> 
> -TJ



It's perfectly legal. We all purchased legal, indivisible interests in our home resorts and that's all.  We didn't buy a right to trade them and the marketplaces that developed to allow that, from EBay to RedWeek to II, merely reflect the demand for trades, not a legal obligation on the part of Marriott to accomodate them.

Many of the seasoned TUGGERS have commented on the risks of buying that resale Branson, for example, just to get the low maintenance fee and solely for trading.


----------



## californiagirl

I found the point charts for the "Explorer Collection".  On the owner page click on "Plan and book my vacation."  The options will drop down.  Some trips seem very reasonable points wise and others seem outrageous.  It certainly opens up our options.  Tuscany here I come!

As far as the points to trade in being more that the value of our weeks.  As I see it, if we want to stay at our home resort we just reserve a week as usual.  Only if we want to trade back in are we subject to the higher point cost.  So in essence, my days of using my studio at DSV II to trade back in for a two bdrm unit are over!:annoyed:  It was good while it lasted.  But when I bought, I knew I was paying for one week for the full unit and two weeks if I locked-off.  That has not changed, just the way I was able to manipulate the system for 11 years.


----------



## SueDonJ

californiagirl said:


> I found the point charts for the "Explorer Collection".  Some trips seem very reasonable points wise and others seem outrageous.  It certainly opens up our options!
> 
> As far as the points to trade in being more that the value of our weeks. * As I see it, if we want to stay at our home resort we just reserve a week as usual.  Only if we want to trade back in are we subject to the higher point cost.*  So in essence, my days of using my studio at DSV II to trade back in for a two bdrm unit are over!:annoyed:  It was good while it lasted.  But when I bought, I knew I was paying for one week for the full unit and two weeks if I locked-off.  That has not changed, just the way I was able to manipulate the system for 11 years.



Oh!  DUH!  Of course!     Okay, now it makes sense.  Whew.


----------



## tahoeJoe

*Makes for sense (for II)*



Bruyerebrit said:


> It's perfectly legal. We all purchased legal, indivisible interests in our home resorts and that's all.  We didn't buy a right to trade them and the marketplaces that developed to allow that, from EBay to RedWeek to II, merely reflect the demand for trades, not a legal obligation on the part of Marriott to accomodate them.



But how can Marriott step in between II and myself on a transaction that does not involve them? This is BS! Why would II even allow this? It does not make sense from II business perspective. If I don't join Marriott's new program and my week has ZERO trading power in II (since Marriott steals it from II) I'm left with nothing. Looks like a SFX or (if possible) RCI would be the way to trade. Again bad for II business. 

Also, if this scenario is true, Marriott's resale values will plummet lower than Starwood's (and that is saying a lot)

-TJ


----------



## tahoeJoe

californiagirl said:


> Only if we want to trade back in are we subject to the higher point cost.  So in essence, my days of using my studio at DSV II to trade back in for a two bdrm unit are over!:annoyed:  It was good while it lasted.



Isn't the new system GREAT!!!  My owner satisfaction is improving by the minute.  

-TJ


----------



## SueDonJ

tahoeJoe said:


> But how can Marriott step in between II and myself on a transaction that does not involve them? This is BS! Why would II even allow this? It does not make sense from II business perspective. If I don't join Marriott's new program and my week has ZERO trading power in II (since Marriott steals it from II) I'm left with nothing. Looks like a SFX or (if possible) RCI would be the way to trade. Again bad for II business.
> 
> Also, if this scenario is true, Marriott's resale values will plummet lower than Starwood's (and that is saying a lot)
> 
> -TJ



It does look like it opens the door for Marriott to do what Starwood does now with II exchanges - instead of the highest-demand/trade power weeks being reserved and deposited by owners, Marriott will pick and choose which weeks are deposited into II (keeping the best for their inventory) when an owner requests an exchange.  That's what was speculated, and now looks that way to me, anyway ...


----------



## Bruyerebrit

californiagirl said:


> So in essence, my days of using my studio at DSV II to trade back in for a two bdrm unit are over!:annoyed:  It was good while it lasted.  But when I bought, I knew I was paying for one week for the full unit and two weeks if I locked-off.  That has not changed, just the way I was able to manipulate the system for 11 years.



Ok, I'll be optimistic here.  Everything may have changed, but that shouldn't fundamentally change supply and demand (of course I'm being simplistic).  There will still be too many summer Palm Desert weeks, winter wherever weeks and Orlando always weeks.  So will Marriott dump all that back into II for Getaways, creating a back door for the same games we did play with trades?  If so, am I worse off picking up a 2 bedroom Getaway in Palm Desert for around $400 and enjoying my new points allocation (or home resort reservation) than I would have been "manipulating the old system"?  Under the old system, I would have paid $75 to lock off and up to two II exchange fees to play my games...hmmm, perhaps there will still be good games to play for those with flexibility.


----------



## Ann in CA

Waiohai Island View  4225 points
Mountainside 1325 pts

Mountainside has always been a great trader, and when we didn't use it we locked it off.  Waiohai always got an AC, and we were quite lucky with exhanging right back to Waiohai, and getting a great trade for the AC.  So I think we just lost two weeks...and the thrill of the trade!  Bummer.


----------



## californiagirl

Okay, I'm going to bed, it is after mid-night here.  By the time I wake up I wonder how many pages this thread will have...all the east coasters will be rested and posting away!:rofl:


----------



## DeniseM

tahoeJoe said:


> But how can Marriott step in between II and myself on a transaction that does not involve them? This is BS! Why would II even allow this?



That's exactly what happened to Starwood owners 10 mos. ago.  Starwood now controls all II deposits, even those of owners who bought resale and are not members of the Starwood Vacation Network.


----------



## Ann in CA

californiagirl
"Okay, I'm going to bed, it is after mid-night here. By the time I wake up I wonder how many pages this thread will have...all the east coasters will be rested and posting away!"



That's what I said half an hour ago...closed all the windows, but couldn't stay away.  However, I think I know enough for now.  Actually, I think the sales people who kept saying they were adding weeks before the start were probably right.  The more weeks, the better the system will work for owners.
Don't think it will be worth it for us.


----------



## scrapngen

Here's a nugget I found in the pdf file: 
https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/exchange_procedures.pdf


(Page 3 of the document)

"...For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may very from year to year by such factors. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest.

*When an Exchange Member Deposits a Use Period with Exchange Company, such Exchange Member assigns and Exchange Company will automatically have all of such Exchange Member’s rights to reserve and use such Use Period for the given Use Year. Once such Use Period has been deposited with Exchange Company, it may not be withdrawn.*   ..."

This is scary stuff...once you choose points for a week Marriott has the right to reserve and assign them in the 13 month reservation window? Also, your ability to get your request with your points is subject to availability and you *may* get put on a wait list if it is not available?? When you combine that with the unlimited ability of PremierPlus Owners to reserve whatever they want at 13 months out (1 day, 1 weekend, etc) Even converting to points only sounds good if you  own enough multiple weeks to get to 12,000 points. Everyone else gets worse than the current 13 month rule as far as I can tell. 

Disclaimer:  I'm just doing a cursory glance through the docs, so:  Maybe I'm just tired and cranky. I spent a long day helping DD's do multiple hair and costume changes for 2 dance recitals...

I think I'll go to bed and see what I find here tomorrow


----------



## Bruyerebrit

tahoeJoe said:


> But how can Marriott step in between II and myself on a transaction that does not involve them? This is BS! Why would II even allow this? It does not make sense from II business perspective. If I don't join Marriott's new program and my week has ZERO trading power in II (since Marriott steals it from II) I'm left with nothing. Looks like a SFX or (if possible) RCI would be the way to trade. Again bad for II business.
> 
> Also, if this scenario is true, Marriott's resale values will plummet lower than Starwood's (and that is saying a lot)
> 
> -TJ



Well I agree it's a lot to digest and we're the pioneers in analysis!  But bear in mind that II doesn't have an obligation to offer us any particular inventory.  Marriott represented to us when we purchased that II would be the only officially sanctioned exchange marketplace.  They also represented that II would provide significant benefits, in that a great variety of exchanges would be available.  Now, they're offering exactly the same thing, but with different "pricing" (points). 

You won't have zero trading power in II - far from it.  You will (probably) have far less access to Marriott inventory.  Conversely (and ironically), your trading power relative to non-Marriott inventory may well increase greatly, since there may be less Marriott inventory.  So, you may find yourself with great Starwood and Hyatt exchanges.  I'm not saying you want this (or me)...just my observations.

So far as resale values, that will be many pages of analysis but I agree generally with you, EXCEPT in the case of weeks purchased overwhelmingly to occupy - ski and Hawaii.  The "generic" gold and silver weeks in particular may plummet, at least initially.  However, I would not bet money on Marriott forever locking post-June 20th resales out in the cold.


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmm. I still can't access that "Enroll Now" link but what you say here is somewhat encouraging - your usage point charts for Barony Beach and SurfWatch aren't too far off the Seasons on the current calendar, maybe a week here or there.


My Mac couldn't access it but the Dell did. I only see one point figure (7475) but nothing else. We own a fixed week/2 BR unit at MM1 (Maui Lahaina tower). Where do you find the other figures? Do I have to go a page further? I don't want to sign up by accident.


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## urple2

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/2_pointsCharts.jsp

I think when you log on it should go right to this chart of all the resort point values.


----------



## yumdrey

My shadow ridge platinum week has 3075 points worth.
Should I join the point system by paying $1495 or not? I would love to enjoy Marriott preference period in II if it is still available.
Also would love to enjoy lock-off feature of my unit for 2 trades.
I think they (2 weeks of trades and enjoy 24 Marriott priority days) have more value than joining point system by paying almost $1500.
Want to hear other's opinion.


----------



## Asia2000

*DSV I 2 bedroom Platinum*

Hello,

I know everyone is just taking in the initial details and at this point "it's all about me / you", but, I'm one of those who is not officially an owner yet.  What does Marriott give for a 2 bedroom Platinum DSV I.

It sounds like I will miss the window to become a "option of going points" person (at least at the $1495 price).  However, outside of maybe saving from $0 - $200 per year by not going through II, I do not see the benefits.  (I say $0 because some years, we will just use our unit - no trading).

If I average $100 in savings per year by being a "option of going points" member, then it would take 15 years to recover my costs at the initial price.  Most likely over 20 years if the offer is ever extended to resale owners who have not closed on the deal yet.  

Here is a big question.  If I pay the original owners of the DSV I unit I am buying, $595 to register the unit, will everything stay the same once the contract changes hands?  If so, I'm going to be making some phone calls, but I have not seen anything on this yet.


----------



## haleakala20

*frenchmans cove*



californiagirl said:


> I wonder why Frenchman's Cove is excluded?  Must have something to do with USVI law perhaps?



I saw today frenchmans cove platinum week enrollable for about 3600 points.


----------



## kedler

*Resale owners with deed recording date after June 20 2010*

From the initial Enrollment Page on the owners site:



As an Owner who purchased prior to the launch of Marriott Vacation Club Destinations, you have the option to enroll in an exchange program providing for your existing use options plus access to the Marriott Vacation Club Exchange Program with an additional Annual Use election, Vacation Club Points.

For a limited time, you can enroll,into the Exchange Program,your first week purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club International for only $595 or $695 for one and a half or more weeks.

Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. *Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program.
*
If you are a multiple-week Owner who purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club International and externally please do not enroll online. Instead, please contact Owner Services, as the total amount of your enrollment should not exceed $1,995.

Enrolling your inventory will not affect your inventory's current eligibility / ineligibility to Trade for Marriott Rewards Points. If you are enrolling weeks that were not purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club, you may be eligible to Trade for Marriott Reward Points after enrollment, dependent on your inventory's eligibility / ineligibility.

Important notices:

As an Enrolled Owner, each year you can use your ownership as you have in the past or elect to receive Vacation Club Points - vacation currency used for even greater flexibility.

Owners who elect to enroll agree to pay annual Exchange Program Dues based on their Owner Recognition Level. These Dues range from $165 to $199, and you'll also enjoy a simplified fee structure, so you don't have to pay separate fees for Interval International, Inc. membership, exchanges to other Marriott Vacation Club resorts or trading for Marriott Rewards points. Enrolled Owners will still be required to pay the annual maintenance fees due and owing each year to their resort's owners association.

With Vacation Club Points you'll be able to check in any day of the week, any season of the year for as long as you want*. You may even bank Vacation Club Points or borrow from the next year's points balance, if you like.

Please note that payment of enrollment fees will not go toward any delinquencies for any other fees due. Also, enrolled Owners must be current on all fees due to use their Annual Use election. To make a Maintenance Fee payment, click here.

If your Web account set-up contains weeks that you do not legally own, this may result in an inaccurate calculation for your Owner Recognition Level. If this is the case, you cannot enroll weeks that you do not legally own.


----------



## LisaH

I guess I have a similar question as Asia. If I enroll into this program now, would the points be transferable to the next buyer?


----------



## catharsis

*Details of Interaction with Interval*

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/buyers_guide2010.pdf

Some highlights....

3. Points
(a) For a Confirmation to be issued, the following Points are required
based on the exchange accommodations being requested:
*MVC Club Program Points Charts for Il Member Resorts*
FULL-WEEK EXCHANGE VALUES
TDIRange Studio One-Bedroom Two-Bedroom Three-Bedroom Four-Bedroom TDI Range
*140 – 150* 2,250 3,000 4,500 6,000 7,000 
*115 – 135* 1,750 2,750 4,000 5,000 6,000 
*90 – 110*   1,500 2,250 3,000 4,000 5,000 
*50 – 85*     1,000 1,500 2,250 3,000 4,000
SHORTSTAY EXCHANGE VALUES
(Per Night)
Day of Week   Studio One-Bedroom Two-Bedroom Three-Bedroom Four-Bedroom Day of Week
SUN – THU 150 250 350  450    550       SUN – THU
FRI/SAT     425 625 750 1,000 1,250 FRI/SAT
When a Club Program Member places an exchange request, Points
required for the highest-valued accommodations are placed on
hold in such Club Program Member’s Points account and will not
be available for use within the MVC Club Program or otherwise
during the pendency of such exchange request.


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## kedler

*Points I will receive if I BUY in*

My units are half developer and half resale and I can't enroll online  "*as the total amount of your enrollment should not exceed $1,995.*" I trade everything but Aruba but its way to early to decide. Also glad EOY included:

Aruba Surf Club Gold OS 3,075 (EOY)

Grande Vista Gold Excellent view 2,175

Barony Beach Club Bronze OS 775

Harbour Point Fixed Wk #5 Excellent view 500

Has anyone seen anything regarding Flexchange Period and if points are lower during that period?


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## kedler

*"FREE" Enrollment with PURCHASE of Points*

From the MVC new pages:

Special Bonus Enrollment Offer!

When you enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, you'll receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints! These added bonus points are good for two to five additional nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort, depending on the resort, room type and season. Be sure to use your Vacation Club PlusPoints before they expire.
Free Enrollment When You Purchase Vacation Club Points
*
For a limited time, when you purchase additional Vacation Club Points at special introductory pricing, your enrollment fee will be waived!* Speak to your Sales Executive or Vacation Ownership Advisor to learn more about this special limited time offer.

Sorry for multiple posts - just trying to share information as I find it! Now all we have to do is decipher it all!


----------



## Asia2000

Question:

If one is to enroll for $595 and then decide to sell his or her timeshare, does the new "destinations" program transfer to the new owner?


----------



## ral

Looks like the Marriott Vacation Club website Owner Login is already overloaded. Can't even login at 4:53 AM!


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## ral

*Just doesn't add up!*

Could this be right? My 3 bedroom platinum Grand Chateau is worth 4625 points. Using the Marriott point chart, I would need one of the following number of points to get back into my three bedroom villa, depending on date: 4675, 5225, 5400, or 6725. It looks like the value of my villa wouldn't even get me back into the same size villa using points for any date. I realize that I could simply reserve a week without using points, but wouldn't you think that the value of the platinum 3 bedroom unit should at least be equal to the number of points needed to book the same unit during the lowest point dates?


----------



## floyddl

californiagirl said:


> How did you find the point value for SR??? All I get is a "site down" message when I click on what is my week worth.  Never mind, I found the info in the pdf file.  Thank you for the link.



Where did you find the info on point value?  I can't get the link to work.


----------



## JimIg23

davidvel said:


> I lied(not my last post). Shadow Ridge Gold is worth 2,325 MVCD points.
> 
> Here are the docs if you want to bore (inform) yourself:
> 
> http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tugpoints
> 
> 
> But I only need 1950 to book the same week???



thanks for the link!  We have the points value, which I think are pretty good! (Maybe not......)
the price to join is also fair, although I need to find out if 1) can you book a week and deposit into II, 2) if so, do you have to keep a seperate II membership (for that and getaways)?  Not too happy about having II and Marriott fees...

The big question is what point value will they give us.  Highest season for NCV is 4725 points (non-Plat plus).  Will they give us that?  if not, this will be a no-go.  Not paying 1500 so I cant book my plat week......


----------



## saturn28

JimIg23 said:


> thanks for the link!  We have the points value, which I think are pretty good!
> 
> the price to join is also fair, although I need to find out if 1) can you book a week and deposit into II, 2) if so, do you have to keep a seperate II membership (for that and getaways)?  Not too happy about having II and Marriott fees...
> 
> The big question is what point value will they give us.  Highest season for NCV is 4725 points (non-Plat plus).  Will they give us that?  if not, this will be a no-go.  Not paying 1500 so I cant book my plat week......



They will look at the week number you have on your deed. That is what it showed when I tried to enroll. The assigned deeded week I have for my Platinum Grande Vista week is 4, which just happens to be one of the lowest points value in their new chart for a platinum week at Grande Vista. I only get  2775 points. However, according to their chart just about all the other platinum weeks require more than 3000 points. That is terrible. I am not happy at all with my first look at how this thing works. I had no choice at what deed platinum week I got. It was chosen for me.


----------



## saturn28

I own a platinum week at Grande Vista. From what I can see from this points chart, I will not be able to trade into a lot of platinum weeks at other resorts. With the system the way it was I could exchange into any other Marriott Platinum week. At first glance this new points system sucks.

In my opinion, I don't see any incentive to join the points system and will stick to trading through Interval.

I own at Hyatt and their points system is much simpler and fair. First off with their system you have a deeded week and if you choose not to use your deed week it changes into points. The points you receive allow you to have enough points to stay during any other week during your season at your home resort. At Hyatt all specific seasons at any of their resorts require the same points. With the new Marriott points program it looks like they have totally done away with seasons and every week during the year can have a different points value. This may be great for Marriott to get more money in sales, but it totally sucks when you compare it to the original system of having seasons. That is my opinion and other may totally disagree.


----------



## davewasbaloo

It is interesting that Europe and Asia are excluded from this. It will be interesting to see how trading between the continents will work out.


----------



## floyddl

davidvel said:


> I lied(not my last post). Shadow Ridge Gold is worth 2,325 MVCD points.
> 
> Here are the docs if you want to bore (inform) yourself:
> 
> http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tugpoints
> 
> 
> But I only need 1950 to book the same week???



Where are you getting what the week is worth.  I see the point values for trades.  Are you saying that is the worth also?


----------



## timeos2

*Kill resale means hurt your buyers when they want out at some point*



l2trade said:


> I really wish Marriott had allowed at least some period of time for future resale purchase to qualify.  This would have allowed excitement from the new program to lift the resale market.  It would have provided more buyer demand for existing owners wanting a way out.  Marriott gave me no reason to buy resale right now and no reason the past 6 months during all the rumors.  Does that mean Marriott will now start exercising ROFR?  LOL



Overall the program seems reasonable and at least initially more cost effective to convert than most (although that will change with time - they need the low buy in now to get off the ground). As mentioned not worth all the handwringing & wailing of the past few months. 

However the BIG news to me is just how serious they are about "punishing" resale buyers. While groups like Wyndham have managed to push resale value to near $0 thanks to marketing the lack of the nearly worthless VIP as being unavailable to resale buyers even Wyndham doesn't (and can't) take away the right of resale buyers  to be in & utilize the excellent Wyndham Points system. In fact resale becomes an incredible value to a buyer there because of that. 

Now Marriott has decided to BLOCK resale buyers from what will from here on be touted as THE key to ownership/utilization of the best of the Marriott system - the points program. If that doesn't kill off resale value for every Marriott owner then either the system failed (unlikely) or buyers haven't heard of the ban yet and when THEY go to sell they will take the devaluation. 

After all the noise Marriott really has sunk to the level of Wastegate, Wyndham and others in trampling on owners resale rights and value. A pox on them as Alan would say.


----------



## floyddl

davidvel said:


> NWL: Everyone's asleep and I have no good spirits to help me to sleep.
> 
> Here's the last...This languane is troublesome:
> 
> 
> Does this mean your enrollment transfers your reservation rights to them ("your existing use options")?



I think that is the deal.  If you own a fixed week this might not be such a great deal.


----------



## timeos2

*Grandfathered in*



ral said:


> Could this be right? My 3 bedroom platinum Grand Chateau is worth 4625 points. Using the Marriott point chart, I would need one of the following number of points to get back into my three bedroom villa, depending on date: 4675, 5225, 5400, or 6725. It looks like the value of my villa wouldn't even get me back into the same size villa using points for any date. I realize that I could simply reserve a week without using points, but wouldn't you think that the value of the platinum 3 bedroom unit should at least be equal to the number of points needed to book the same unit during the lowest point dates?



Usually, and as stated in the Marriott information posted here, you have the right to reserve your level use week at your home resort regardless of how many points it takes as an outside user booking in. So you are never locked out of your own resort based on points requirements but you may not get the highest amount - or the published amount required - as your base annual allotment. Most points systems work that way.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> These are the points to book *into* the resort, no? Your allocated points will be some average of the season. It looks like NCV Platinum got more than enough to book mid September to mid-December, but not enough for any summer week.
> 
> Frankly, the way I see it, this program is for some Hawaii owners who want to vacation outside of Hawaii (well, why did they buy Hawaii then?) and people who bought high season but use in off peak weeks... Everyone else is worse off because they can't get the peak weeks in their own season, or trade to similar size units in peak times elsewhere. As an initial reaction, I'd call it a flop from my perspective. I'll let others speak for themselves.



Well averages ain't going to feed the bulldog. I understand now why they allow current owners to "keep" their original usage option because they've just re-seasoned all the resorts and, given the new points chart to check in to your own resort, they apparently aren't even giving owners enough points to reserve their deeded weeks in their deeded seasons enough of those points to book what they purchased, if points were the only game in town.

For current owners, so long as Marriott doesn't do an end around and try to terminate your original contract rights your all right. For all buyers going forward, Marriott just gotcha.


----------



## ktrick

*Grande Ocean Gold Season*

For our Grande Ocean gold oceanfront weeks we are offered 3850 points.  4000 points required to trade into the same week.


----------



## ral

*Any Platinum 3 bedroom villa Grand Chateau owners out there?*



saturn28 said:


> They will look at the week number you have on your deed. That is what it showed when I tried to enroll. The assigned deeded week I have for my Platinum Grande Vista week is 4, which just happens to be one of the lowest points value in their new chart for a platinum week at Grande Vista. I only get  2775 points. However, according to their chart just about all the other platinum weeks require more than 3000 points. That is terrible. I am not happy at all with my first look at how this thing works. I had no choice at what deed week I got. It was chosen for me.



I'm not quite sure if we can yet say that Marriott used the actual deeded week to determine the point value of your unit. We need to find out if all other Platinum Grande Vista weeks (I assume it was a 2 bedroom unit) were assigned 2775 points. If so, then it doesn't matter which week you were deeded within the Platinum season.

In my case, I would like to find out if any Platinum 3 bedroom units at Grand Chateau were assigned a value other than 4625 points. Any Platinum 3 bedroom villa Grand Chateau owners out there?


----------



## NJDave

dougp26364 said:


> they apparently aren't even giving owners enough points to reserve their deeded weeks in their deeded seasons enough of those points to book what they purchased, if points were the only game in town.



At Cypress Harbour, we don't even get enough points to book any week in our season.  We are allocated 2,650 points but it takes at least 2,675 to reserve any week.  The average value should have been 2,828 rounded to 2,825.  I think we are being penalized since this resort is sold out and not in Marriott's inventory.  

Week         Points

1	    2,675
2	    2,675
3	    2,675
4	    2,675
5	    3,225
6	    2,900
7	    2,900
8	    2,900
9	    2,900
10	    2,900
11	    2,900
12	    2,900
13	    2,675
14	    2,675
15	    2,675
16	    2,675
17	    2,675
51	    2,900
52	    3,225

Average Value 2,828


----------



## timeos2

*Less in and another priority group with the right to remove even more*



urple2 said:


> Am i reading this correctly? they'll take the marriott inventory out of Interval to fulfill the Points reservations requirement?



Sounds like they have worked a deal with II to pull non-points weeks deposits out of II using points to fulfill points requests. THAT is a new twist and one I haven't seen before from a points system. That really does the the potential to hurt inventory availability for "traditional" weeks II members as it is yet another priority claim on incoming deposits from any Marriott resort. 

I'll admit this idea had not occurred to me before and if I were a weeks owner trading for Marriotts inII it would be very troublesome. Negative #2 so far.


----------



## saturn28

dougp26364 said:


> Well averages ain't going to feed the bulldog. I understand now why they allow current owners to "keep" their original usage option because they've just re-seasoned all the resorts and, given the new points chart to check in to your own resort, they apparently aren't even giving owners enough points to reserve their deeded weeks in their deeded seasons enough of those points to book what they purchased, if points were the only game in town.
> 
> For current owners, so long as Marriott doesn't do an end around and try to terminate your original contract rights your all right. For all buyers going forward, Marriott just gotcha.




There is no more seasons as we have known them. What they have done is coverted to a hotel system where every week cost more or less depending on the demand for that week. Furthermore, you don't get the same amount of points for your week as it shows in the chart that it would cost to stay there. Why is that. It really makes it more difficult to stay at other Marriott resorts during the previous season system without having to borrow points or buy more points. In my opinon it is totally skewed towards Marriott and not the owners and should be "DOA"


----------



## ktrick

*Purchase price of points?*

Has anyone been able to see the price Marriott is asking to purchase new points or the current MF associated with the points?

Do purchased points correspond to deeded real estate or just to usage for a certain period of time?

I think the answers to these questions will impact resale values of current week ownership.


----------



## abdibile

Platinum 2 BR Willow Ridge Lodge (ex Horizons Branson) gets assigned 1,850 points.

This would allow me to book a Studio in TDI 115-135 or a 1 BR in TDI 50-85 through Interval on Points. No value at all!

I did not find a lower points value for flexchange exchanges in the buyers guide, so this route seems not to add value for points exchanges.

1,850 points would enable me to exchange back into Willow Ridge 2 BR for all Platinum weeks (1,675 points) except summer (May 13 - September 1: 2,400 Points). Best of two worlds: Reserving off-sesaon week leaves me small change while I still can reserve a summer week directly (without points). Hopefully availability for reserving Summer weeks directly will stay OK.

$165 Club Fees is not a bad deal given I often locked 2 or all of my 3 ownerships off (preciously $75 each). As Lockoff is mentioned as being included in the Club Fees is still available and one should (hopefully!) still be able to deposit the 1 BR and Studio into a personal II account separately.

By joining for $1,995 I could add the option to exchange for reward points (not seen as a good value on TUG, but still another option if I can not use my weeks otherwise).

Exchanging into off-season weeks through points without an exchange fee could make sense. This could get cheaper than paying II exchange fee and trading the studio of a lockoff. Exchanging into high-season weeks through points is too expensive, but an option added.

European and Asian resorts need to be booked through interval without exchange fee (but I would assume 2 BR for 3,000 points 90-110 TDI, 4,000 points higehr TDI). Not a good deal.

Lots of flexibility added (checkin any day, length of stay, borrow and save points), but I do not think I need that.

Not too enthusiastic currently....

I hope Marriott priority and Marriott availability in II stays as it is!


----------



## SMB1

DanCali said:


> These are the points to book *into* the resort, no? Your allocated points will be some average of the season. It looks like NCV Platinum got more than enough to book mid September to mid-December, but not enough for any summer week.
> 
> Frankly, the way I see it, this program is for some Hawaii owners who want to vacation outside of Hawaii (well, why did they buy Hawaii then?) and people who bought high season but use in off peak weeks... Everyone else is worse off because they can't get the peak weeks in their own season, or trade to similar size units in peak times elsewhere. As an initial reaction, I'd call it a flop from my perspective. I'll let others speak for themselves.



Forgive me if this has already been said.  I'm only on page 2 here, but you can still book the season you bought just like you always have.

My question is if I book at 12 months now will people in this season who bought at other resorts be able to out book me at my own resort.  Am I no longer guaranteed a week in my season?


----------



## timeos2

*II at work as usual*



tahoeJoe said:


> But how can Marriott step in between II and myself on a transaction that does not involve them? This is BS! Why would II even allow this? It does not make sense from II business perspective. If I don't join Marriott's new program and my week has ZERO trading power in II (since Marriott steals it from II) I'm left with nothing. Looks like a SFX or (if possible) RCI would be the way to trade. Again bad for II business.
> 
> Also, if this scenario is true, Marriott's resale values will plummet lower than Starwood's (and that is saying a lot)
> 
> -TJ



II has a LONG and hallowed (for them) tradition of assigning priorities to various groups/developers as a way to get them into the system. In fact it has long been the mere paying member of II who sits at the bottom of their food chain. Once you assign II your use for any period what they do with it is entirely in their control including giving it to any preferred group they may desire. Thats what you agree to (ask RCI members if they WANT their weeks going to rental rather than trade - they don't have a choice if they put it in as by doing so they agree). 

Nothing new for II and one of my long standing pet peeves with that system that could be so good but is basically a developers playground that gets uninformed members to pay the bills.

As for resale - Marriott has lowered itself to the levels of Wastegate, Wyndham and so many others that purposely devalue the very product they hawk to their buyers. Why would anyone deal with a company like that now that they showed their true stripes?


----------



## abdibile

ktrick said:


> Has anyone been able to see the price Marriott is asking to purchase new points or the current MF associated with the points?
> 
> Do purchased points correspond to deeded real estate or just to usage for a certain period of time?
> 
> I think the answers to these questions will impact resale values of current week ownership.



I read something about "6 beneficial intersts" costing $14,010. A purchase incentive for this amount would be getting 2,000 PlusPoints (one time points valid through Dec 2011) But no clue how many points that are. Have not seen anything about maintenance fees.


----------



## saturn28

With this new hotel type system where every week can have a different points value to exchange, Marriott will likely change the cost every year. This means there will be a continued drip of more and more money from their present owners to have to purchase more points to stay at the Marriott resorts you want to exchange into.


----------



## pacheco18

So glad I love where I bought and I go where I bought.
I'll keep my deeds, my Ocean View at Ko'Olina and my Platinum weeks at Shadow Ridge.  The only points that interest me are Rewards Points for hotel stays abroad and I can trade for those if I choose to.  Unless you bought to trade, I see no benefit to this program at all.  I think personal (non Interval) exchanges will flourish.  This is the proverbial "pig in a poke."

Also - I wouldn't be tempted by any initial come on about low enrollment fees or bonus points to join "for a limited time."  I guarantee that the folks at Marriott will have endless incentives to increase participation. Not so fast!


----------



## PerryM

DB-Wis said:


> These changes hardly seem to have warranted almost 3,000 postings, many of which expressing great angst at the grave injustice to which we were all about to be subjected.  Just think how all of our properties might have benefited if that energy had been devoted to working constructively to address real issues rather than wringing hands for months speculating, analyzing and fretting over a parade of horribles that never appeared.



This is priceless...


----------



## Dean

l2trade said:


> You must close on the Marriott resale purchase before 6/20/2010.  It is too late to buy resale now & be officially eligible to join the new program.  I would hope Marriott finds a reasonable exception to this rule for future resale buyers.  I see Marriott priced initial enrollment higher for existing resale buyers.  I am ok with that difference.  What about FUTURE resale buyers.  Does Marriott want me?  I waited for the details, now I see no reason to rush to buy if I cannot join the new program.  Without an exception, I might as well wait to see if folks who don't join remain happy with their home resort season availability.


I suspect there will be exactly one exception, buying a retail purchase as part of the conversion.


----------



## dougp26364

scrapngen said:


> Here's a nugget I found in the pdf file:
> https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/exchange_procedures.pdf
> 
> 
> (Page 3 of the document)
> 
> _"...For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. *The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may very from year to year by such factors. *The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest.
> 
> When an Exchange Member Deposits a Use Period with Exchange Company, such Exchange Member assigns and Exchange Company will automatically have all of such Exchange Member’s rights to reserve and use such Use Period for the given Use Year. Once such Use Period has been deposited with Exchange Company, it may not be withdrawn.   ..."_--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is scary stuff...once you choose points for a week Marriott has the right to reserve and assign them in the 13 month reservation window? Also, your ability to get your request with your points is subject to availability and you *may* get put on a wait list if it is not available?? When you combine that with the unlimited ability of PremierPlus Owners to reserve whatever they want at 13 months out (1 day, 1 weekend, etc) Even converting to points only sounds good if you  own enough multiple weeks to get to 12,000 points. Everyone else gets worse than the current 13 month rule as far as I can tell.
> 
> Disclaimer:  I'm just doing a cursory glance through the docs, so:  Maybe I'm just tired and cranky. I spent a long day helping DD's do multiple hair and costume changes for 2 dance recitals...
> 
> I think I'll go to bed and see what I find here tomorrow



I agree that this is scary stuff. They can arbitrarily change the number of points required to reserve a unit? When you by points with Marriott, now you're just buying the right to reserve some vacation time somewhere in the system. From year to year, you'll never know whether the points you originally purchased will be enough to reserve the week you targeted when you laid down you money. Essentially, reserving a week at any one particluar resort appears to have become a moving target for new owners. 

Original owners maintain their right to occupy their home resort week by electing not to give up that week for points. New owners appear to buy an arbitrary number of points and hope that every year they'll have enough points to reserve that summer week at NCV they really wanted. But under this new system, if NCV becomes a hot property, Marriott can increase the number of points required to stay there and it appears they can do so at their discreation. 

Now I understand that trade value will vary from year to year. Hawaii might have lost some trade value in recent years due to the economy. Maybe in a few more years, when the economy turns around, Hawaii might be the hot trade destination again and, even in a weeks based exchange system, that would be reflected by the fact it would be a more difficult exchange. 

But to buy points with the intention of going to Hawaii under the new system when the points required are lower due to the economy, only to see the point requirement go up when things turn around and demand for Hawaii goes up, is bound to tick new owners under the points sytem off to no end. As a legacy owner it's not that big of a deal as I mainten the rights to use my home resort week when Hawaii is to expensive on the points chart. If I own in Hawaii under the original program, it's no big deal because I would retain the right to use my home resort week in my purchased season and in a unit the style/size in my contract. But for new owners, their desired destination has potentially become a moving target. Want to go to Hawaii in 2011? It will be 4,500 points. Want to go to Hawaii in 2020? We can't tell you how many points is it will require because the points required will vary depending on demand.

I'm glad I bought from Marriott when we did. We won't be buying from Marriott under their new program. There appears to be no way to guarentee what we buy today will get the accomadations we want tomorrow.

If good resale weeks become available at rock bottom prices because their locked out of the new system, it might be worth picking some up either to use or to exchange on the weeks based system with Interval (might become a hot commodity for Interval if it's an in demand week).


----------



## dima

Not all weeks I have available for enrollment.
Marbella and Phuket are mot eligible.


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## abdibile

My impression is that points enrollment does NOT transfer on resale of a legacy week.

The "Points Exchange" contract seems to be a personal contract between Marriott and myself, not really linked to the weeks I own, so should not transfer when I sell the deeded weeks.

The byuer of my deeded week will have his deed recorded abfter Juen 20 2010, so not be eligible to join the Points Exchange program.


----------



## dougp26364

ral said:


> Could this be right? My 3 bedroom platinum Grand Chateau is worth 4625 points. Using the Marriott point chart, I would need one of the following number of points to get back into my three bedroom villa, depending on date: 4675, 5225, 5400, or 6725. It looks like the value of my villa wouldn't even get me back into the same size villa using points for any date. I realize that I could simply reserve a week without using points, but wouldn't you think that the value of the platinum 3 bedroom unit should at least be equal to the number of points needed to book the same unit during the lowest point dates?



Not only that, but exchanging using points through I.I. will only get you a 2 bedroom unit in typical high season (TDI 115-130) with 625 points left over, which won't get you jack spit. Leaving that three bedroom alone will allow you to deposit a 2 bedroom and search for a 2 bedroom with the master suite and allow you to deposit and search for a 1 bedroom unit with the lock-off section. You'd be screwed using points to exchange through I.I. in this scenario. The only thing points would be good for would be exchanging direct through Marriott and, based upon their points chart, which always seems to require MORE points to trade in than Marriott gives up when you opt-in, owners get screwed on internal exchanges as well. 

The more I read, the more I'm not really liking this program.


----------



## jerseygirl

Why does everyone believe they're only going to sell "pure points" going forward?  Has this been announced?  I'm at Lakeshore Reserve .... I hate going to timeshare presentations but I'll "take one for the team" and see what they're offering later this week if no one confirms the current offers ahead of time.  

It seems to me that it would have been very complicated to file all new paperwork with every state involved to convert existing inventory to a club structure.  Not that it couldn't have been done, of course ... but it seems to me that it's more like the Disney and Hilton systems.  Buy a particular week, worth X points and subject to the same underlying maintenance fee that legacy owners pay ... with trade downs available at all times to stretch the number of vacation days, or the "bank and borrow" strategies to trade up to a more expensive/desired location.


----------



## abdibile

dima said:


> Not all weeks I have available for enrollment.
> Marbella and Phuket are mot eligible.



From the vacationclub.com info:

Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints (=purchase incentive, on time points) are not offered at Marriott’s Frenchman’s Cove, Marriott’s St. Kitts Beach Club, Marriott’s Village d’lle-de-France, Marriott’s Playa Andaluza, Marriott’s Club Son Antem, Marriott’s Marbella Beach Resort, and Marriott’s Phuket Beach Club.

From the FAQ:

Please note at this time Marriott Vacation Club resorts located in Europe and Asia must still be confirmed through an Interval International internal exchange with no exchange fee for Enrolled Owners.


----------



## NJDave

ral said:


> I'm not quite sure if we can yet say that Marriott used the actual deeded week to determine the point value of your unit. We need to find out if all other Platinum Grande Vista weeks (I assume it was a 2 bedroom unit) were assigned 2775 points. If so, then it doesn't matter which week you were deeded within the Platinum season.




We own 2 Cypress Harbour weeks and both were assigned the same value (i.e. 2,650 points) even though one week is one of the best deeded weeks and the other is one of the worst.


----------



## MikeB2620

My concerns about this whole program change was with the ability of Marriott to change points requirements for a given resort at any time in the future. 

They have done this periodically with their Rewards program concerning redeeming of points for hotel stays. 

I wonder if they will be selling "home resort advantage" to new purchasers when they buy points? That way, if a person wants to buy in Hawaii, and purchases the number of points needed, they will always be guaranteed to be able to reserve Hawaii? If not, would caution people about buying Marriott in the future.


----------



## ira g

*Will maintenance fees jump with this points program?*

Daily night reservations will cause cleaning fees to rise. Who will pay for that the owners at the particular timeshare or is there a charge for less than a weeks reservation?


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## abdibile

dougp26364 said:


> The only thing points would be good for would be exchanging direct through Marriott and, based upon their points chart, which always seems to require MORE points to trade in than Marriott gives up when you opt-in, owners get screwed on internal exchanges as well.



We have to take into account that internal points excahnges and points excahnges through Interval do not have to pay an exchange fee for each excahnge, this is all covered in the Club Fees. For multiple weeks owners this saving adds up.

In addition you are much more flexible with points, being able to book different check in days and lengths of stays. 

Let's be fair and not just compare Sat-Sat weeks to the old weesk system.


----------



## dougp26364

ral said:


> I'm not quite sure if we can yet say that Marriott used the actual deeded week to determine the point value of your unit. We need to find out if all other Platinum Grande Vista weeks (I assume it was a 2 bedroom unit) were assigned 2775 points. If so, then it doesn't matter which week you were deeded within the Platinum season.
> 
> In my case, I would like to find out if any Platinum 3 bedroom units at Grand Chateau were assigned a value other than 4625 points. Any Platinum 3 bedroom villa Grand Chateau owners out there?



Yes, I haven't managed to get the web site to give me the info yet. I actually own two MGC weeks. Both EOY weeks as we originally bought EOY but decided we liked it well enough to exercise the option to buy the corresponding EOY week. Should be interesting to see if they give me different point values for each week, the same point values for each week or if they average them both together somehow. My bet is their giving everyone what they consider an "average" point value for all the weeks combined.


----------



## Dean

iconnections said:


> My Mac couldn't access it but the Dell did. I only see one point figure (7475) but nothing else. We own a fixed week/2 BR unit at MM1 (Maui Lahaina tower). Where do you find the other figures? Do I have to go a page further? I don't want to sign up by accident.


Got it with a Mac using Firefox.


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## abdibile

jerseygirl said:


> Why does everyone believe they're only going to sell "pure points" going forward?  Has this been announced?



Information on their www.vacationclub.com website (which has completely changed last night) sounds a lot like they are only going to sell points packages "Beneficial Interests" in the future.


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## MikeB2620

It does say in the fine print of the points requirement catalog

IN THE EVENT POINT VALUES ARE CHANGED, NO TRUST OWNER WILL BE PREVENTED FROM USING THE ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE SAME MANNER AS WAS PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE CONTRACT

Maybe they will offer "home resort advantage" to future purchasers.

Sorry for the second post.


----------



## abdibile

NJDave said:


> We own 2 Cypress Harbour weeks and both were assigned the same value (i.e. 2,650 points) even though one week is one of the best deeded weeks and the other is one of the worst.



Same for Willow Ridge Lodge. They seem not to rely on the deeded week, just on the season you bought.


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## windje2000

*Points will not roll over but will be forfeited*

A quick reading of the exchange procedures seems to say that you have to specify whether points will be used for the current year or the following year (banked) and can ONLY be used for the year specified. Points not used in the year specified will be FORFEITED.

That was one of the advantages of Interval's system--you could trade for the current year OR two years out, without having to specify anything, and without the risk of forfeiting anything.


----------



## dougp26364

NJDave said:


> At Cypress Harbour, we don't even get enough points to book any week in our season.  We are allocated 2,650 points but it takes at least 2,675 to reserve any week.  The average value should have been 2,828 rounded to 2,825.  I think we are being penalized since this resort is sold out and not in Marriott's inventory.
> 
> Week         Points
> 
> 1	    2,675
> 2	    2,675
> 3	    2,675
> 4	    2,675
> 5	    3,225
> 6	    2,900
> 7	    2,900
> 8	    2,900
> 9	    2,900
> 10	    2,900
> 11	    2,900
> 12	    2,900
> 13	    2,675
> 14	    2,675
> 15	    2,675
> 16	    2,675
> 17	    2,675
> 51	    2,900
> 52	    3,225
> 
> Average Value 2,828



I should have read just a little further.

So, Marriott is giving the shaft to existing owners by not even alotting them what would be enough points to rebook into their home resort. It seems Marriott has place a higher value on the weeks than they are willing to give their owners.


----------



## siberiavol

There are big differences in point values within the old seasons based on the date of the deed at many resorts including Ocean Pointe which is unfortunate for many.


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## abdibile

dougp26364 said:


> My bet is their giving everyone what they consider an "average" point value for all the weeks combined.



The points you get when converting a wek into points seem to be significantly less than the average points required to reserve the weeks in the whole season.

But we have to take into account the higher flexibility when booking through points and the exchange fee being included in the Club Fees, so I would not see it as too unfair.


----------



## MikeB2620

I have also noticed on the points values, that for beach resorts, in the prime summer season, you can reserve a "Fri-Sun" and a "Sun-Thurs", for much less points needs for a "Full Week". 

I guess you would have to change rooms, but what the heck, the savings in points is substantial.


----------



## 1965

what does this all mean for me specificially.
I own (2) bedroom/Marriott Desert Springs #2/two bedroom/annual use/lock off.

I have been getting (3) two bedrooms ever year, with "low season" trades

Studio=two bedroom
one bedroom=two bedroom
Interval/AC=two bedroom


what is my worse case scenario?

are these all possible?
Less overall marriott Inventory for trades at Interval?
Less two bedroom marriott Inventory for trades at Interval?
are the value of marriott weeks for resale later, going to fall dramatially?

Is this possible?
will  i lose my incredible Marriott Interval Trading Advantage?

some of have suggested that I will have to join these marriott Vacation club Points as MVC will control all Marriott Deposits thru Interval and the entire Interval/Marriott-Trading System that  I have know for years is now worthless?
could they be correct?


----------



## ira g

dougp26364 said:


> I should have read just a little further.
> 
> So, Marriott is giving the shaft to existing owners by not even alotting them what would be enough points to rebook into their home resort. It seems Marriott has place a higher value on the weeks than they are willing to give their owners.



Marriott does this right now with MR program. How much does it cost in MR points to reserve a week in a TS compared to how many points they give you to trade in that timeshare for MR points. I never trusted them in their devaluation of the points in any points system.


----------



## David10225

This is just my impression, but apparently summer weeks at HH at some resorts (ocean ones) are hot properties.  For example, I checked a 2 bedroom (Ocean Side) for the peak summer (not july 4th) and found the following required number of points for 2011

Barony Beach 4500
Heritage Club 2500 (doesn't that seem like a mistake?)
Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach  4175 (I included as its relatively close)
Monach 2675 for Garden and 3775 for OV
Surfwatch 4500
Grand Ocean 4500
Harbor Club 2275
Harbor Point 1225!!!!!!

I don't know how many points I'm going to get for my platinum BB yet as the page is constantly down.....but wow..I can't believe the difference in the point values for HH....


----------



## abdibile

Rates for Sun-Thu and Fri-Sat are DAILY points values.

Did you take that into account? I did not find inconsistencies yet.



MikeB2620 said:


> I have also noticed on the points values, that for beach resorts, in the prime summer season, you can reserve a "Fri-Sun" and a "Sun-Thurs", for much less points needs for a "Full Week".
> 
> I guess you would have to change rooms, but what the heck, the savings in points is substantial.


----------



## dougp26364

jerseygirl said:


> Why does everyone believe they're only going to sell "pure points" going forward?  Has this been announced?  I'm at Lakeshore Reserve .... I hate going to timeshare presentations but I'll "take one for the team" and see what they're offering later this week if no one confirms the current offers ahead of time.
> 
> It seems to me that it would have been very complicated to file all new paperwork with every state involved to convert existing inventory to a club structure.  Not that it couldn't have been done, of course ... but it seems to me that it's more like the Disney and Hilton systems.  Buy a particular week, worth X points and subject to the same underlying maintenance fee that legacy owners pay ... with trade downs available at all times to stretch the number of vacation days, or the "bank and borrow" strategies to trade up to a more expensive/desired location.



I believe the complexity is why the rumor has been out there since 2007. It's taken them this long to get this program approved for sale in all the states. I could be wrong but, it's my understanding that going forward Marriott will only sell points rather than deeded weeks.


----------



## saturn28

dougp26364 said:


> I should have read just a little further.
> 
> So, Marriott is giving the shaft to existing owners by not even alotting them what would be enough points to rebook into their home resort. It seems Marriott has place a higher value on the weeks than they are willing to give their owners.



Exactly, and this makes it more difficult to trade into other Marriott resorts that are similar to Cypress Harbour without having to borrow or buy more points. They are giving the owners fewer points to use for internal exchanges than the number of points they are charging to stay at the resort. This gives them the option of increasing the number of points it will cost to stay at Cypress Harbour without increasing the number of points they give the owners. 

The ony advantage some resale owners may find in this disastor of a program is if they want to buy in to get to be able to use the Marriott Rewards Program. Other than that, this thing is a disastor and should be DOA


----------



## littlestar

I wish I would have bought a resale with Hilton now instead of Marriott. I'm not impressed with Marriott's point system from what I'm reading.


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## abdibile

Everything you mentioned could happen, but availability of Marriott weeks in II could get worse independent from your decision to enroll to the new program or not. So your decision to join should only be dependent on how you value the additional benefits/options.

Currently my interpretation is that you only lose rights in the years you decide to convert yout week to points.

Or has someone found any language that would allow Marriott to controll what you deposit into II in the years you go the classic route of reserving and depositing that reservation (e.g. as two lockoffs) into your personal II account?




1965 said:


> what does this all mean for me specificially.
> I own (2) bedroom/Marriott Desert Springs #2/two bedroom/annual use/lock off.
> 
> I have been getting (3) two bedrooms ever year, with "low season" trades
> 
> Studio=two bedroom
> one bedroom=two bedroom
> Interval/AC=two bedroom
> 
> 
> what is my worse case scenario?
> 
> are these all possible?
> Less overall marriott Inventory for trades at Interval?
> Less two bedroom marriott Inventory for trades at Interval?
> are the value of marriott weeks for resale later, going to fall dramatially?
> 
> Is this possible?
> will  i lose my incredible Marriott Interval Trading Advantage?
> 
> some of have suggested that I will have to join these marriott Vacation club Points as MVC will control all Marriott Deposits thru Interval and the entire Interval/Marriott-Trading System that  I have know for years is now worthless?
> could they be correct?


----------



## dougp26364

abdibile said:


> The points you get when converting a wek into points seem to be significantly less than the average points required to reserve the weeks in the whole season.
> 
> But we have to take into account the higher flexibility when booking through points and the exchange fee being included in the Club Fees, so I would not see it as too unfair.



That flexibility comes at a very high price from what I'm seeing. Marriott takes you week, gives you points but, gives you fewer points than what they charge other owners to reserve that week. Right there is a discrepency in valuation. They give you 4,000 points but charge everyone else 5,000 points for the SAME week. Marriott just made a 1,000 point profit on the transaction. Eventually, some TUGGER will be able to put a $ value on those points so we can better estimate how much Marriott is getting into points members pockets. 

Compare this with both DRI and HGVC and you can see how unfair the program is to owners. 

1. With both DRI and HGVC, I receive enough points for my weeks to book any week in the season I originally purchased. With Marriott no-can-do. 

2. Marriott has reserved the right to vary points depending on demand. DRI and HGVC are fixed and can never vary. If I buy a certain number of points to stay in Hawaii, I know I'll always have enough points to reserve that week. With Marriott, again no-can-do. 

The more I look at this program, the more I believe Marriott is giving their owners the shaft. I never would have thought that about Marriott until now. They had a chance to hit a home run with this new program. Instead it's more like the squib that's picked up by the catcher for the easy out at first.


----------



## saturn28

dougp26364 said:


> That flexibility comes at a very high price from what I'm seeing. Marriott takes you week, gives you points but, gives you fewer points than what they charge other owners to reserve that week. Right there is a discrepency in valuation. They give you 4,000 points but charge everyone else 5,000 points for the SAME week. Marriott just made a 1,000 point profit on the transaction. Eventually, some TUGGER will be able to put a $ value on those points so we can better estimate how much Marriott is getting into points members pockets.
> 
> Compare this with both DRI and HGVC and you can see how unfair the program is to owners.
> 
> 1. With both DRI and HGVC, I receive enough points for my weeks to book any week in the season I originally purchased. With Marriott no-can-do.
> 
> 2. Marriott has reserved the right to vary points depending on demand. DRI and HGVC are fixed and can never vary. If I buy a certain number of points to stay in Hawaii, I know I'll always have enough points to reserve that week. With Marriott, again no-can-do.
> 
> The more I look at this program, the more I believe Marriott is giving their owners the shaft. I never would have thought that about Marriott until now. They had a chance to hit a home run with this new program. Instead it's more like the squib that's picked up by the catcher for the easy out at first.




*Marriott is buying the week from us at wholesale then charging the owner retail to exchange into another Vacation Cub resort during the same season.* Can someone tell me how this is a good deal. My fear is they are going to try and control the units deposited with Interval giving them only low demand weeks. If they don't why would any present owner want to pay more in points and money to stay at a Hilton Head resort in the summer. With the present weeks exchange method through Interval you just exchange one week for another.

I think this may end up backfiring on Marriott. If I was looking to purchase a Marriott timeshare, I would look to by a deed week and either trade through Interval or any New exchange system that may pop up to trade Marriott Vacation Club resorts without Marriotts involvement to control the weeks deposited.


----------



## tlwmkw

Can't get onto the site to find out what my weeks are worth in terms of points.  It must be completely overloaded.  We have Plat/2Bed/OF/Surfwatch and Plat/3bed/Grande Vista- if I can figure it out I'll post it.

We're here at Surfwatch now and plan to take a tour- we'll see what info they can give us then.

tlwmkw


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Oh!  DUH!  Of course!     Okay, now it makes sense.  Whew.




Except that (not surprisingly) nothing in the info released tells us how Marriott allocates inventory between those who do not convert to points and those who do.  So, until the program has been up and running for a year or so, and we begin to hear anecdotal reports of whether or not the ability to reserve the "prime" weeks, outside of points, has or has not changed, we won't really know whether that strategy remains viable.


----------



## thinze3

I have tried a dozen times to get through, but the system must be overloaded.


----------



## dima

tlwmkw said:


> Can't get onto the site to find out what my weeks are worth in terms of points.  It must be completely overloaded.  We have Plat/2Bed/OF/Surfwatch and Plat/3bed/Grande Vista- if I can figure it out I'll post it.
> 
> We're here at Surfwatch now and plan to take a tour- we'll see what info they can give us then.
> 
> tlwmkw



If you start enrollment you will be able to see all information.


----------



## laurac260

Asia2000 said:


> Question:
> 
> If one is to enroll for $595 and then decide to sell his or her timeshare, does the new "destinations" program transfer to the new owner?



I would guess the answer to that would be the same as before this program rolled out, which would be an emphatic NO!  The previous points program did not transfer.  Why would they transfer this one?  

Seems to me they single handedly killed off both the resale market (or atleast tried to), and perhaps Redweek, et al. rentals as well????


----------



## dougp26364

So I'm looking at this on a grand scale now and thinking, if Marriott is consistantly giving owners fewer points than what it requires for exchange, excactly how much profit are they literally STEALING from owners?

Let's say every resort week in the system would add up to 1,000,000 points to reserve but, when owners request points for their weeks, Marriott gives them 800,000 points. That's 200,000 points of profit for Marriott and they didn't do anything other than give you less than what you own! So how many hotel nights is Marriott getting to rent out without laying out a penny to obtain them? Let's not forget that Marriott is tossing a little salt in the wound by charging owners up to $1,995 for the privledge to allow them to steal from owners with our permission.

Sorry Marriott, this is a VERY bad deal for owners but looks like it's a great deal for you.


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## kedler

*MVC Destinations Exchange Program - two types of members*

From the disclosure guide (which you can get to by clicking on the enroll now page on my-vacation club) here is the link: https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/disclosure_guide.pdf.

Marriott is selling this new system as the "MVC Exchange Company" and the guide provides information about the *MVC Destinations Exchange Program*. There are two types of members:

"1. Trust Members. This paragraph only applies to Trust Members. For so long as the Association governing the Trust Member maintains its Affiliation Agreement with the Exchange Company, such Trust Member will be granted privileges in the Program as a Member, subject to the terms and conditions set forth in this Disclosure Guide. Other than the Affiliation Agreement, there is no Program contract with any Trust Member separate and distinct from the Trust Member’s contract with the Developer for the acquisition of an Interest at an Affiliate Program. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order for a Trust Member to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or the Association of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into and maintain an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to voluntarily reserve and use the Accommodations that are a part of the Program as described in the Exchange Procedures. If a Trust Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program (e.g., outside the Trust Member’s trust) or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Affiliation Agreement will occur. Every Affiliation Agreement will have a two year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by mutual agreement of the applicable Association and Exchange Company. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company."

AND

"2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur. Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company."

Here is the information on *RESALE & RENTING:
*
Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Exchange Benefits. Exchange Company may offer Exchange Benefits other than Base Exchange Benefits and Base Plus Exchange Benefits to certain Members, from time to time. Exchange Company reserves the right to establish such rules and regulations as it deems necessary to adequately govern Member access to Exchange Benefits which may include certain fees. In addition, Exchange Company reserves the right to restrict the offering or use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Exchange Benefits to certain Members, including, without limitation, allowing use of such Exchange Benefits only to those Members who purchase their Interests from an Approved Broker. The Exchange Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice. Some Exchange Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing Exchange Benefits.
a. *Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest*, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.
b. *Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program*, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner.
2. Personal Use; Commercial Purposes. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Exchange Benefits, and Use Periods *may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. *In the event a Member is determined to be reserving or using the Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Exchange Benefits, and Use Periods for any commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Member and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Exchange Company, in its sole and absolute discretion, from time to time. The restrictions of this paragraph do not apply to Exchange Company or its affiliates or designees."


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmm.  I still can't access that "Enroll Now" link but what you say here is somewhat encouraging - your usage point charts for Barony Beach and SurfWatch aren't too far off the Seasons on the current calendar, maybe a week here or there.



The reason for this is that the HHI resorts are older and actually had realistic seasons. Resorts like NCV, not so much. I think this is why the points charts match up with the seasons better in HHI than elsewhere.



Bruyerebrit said:


> Ok, I'll be optimistic here.  Everything may have changed, but that shouldn't fundamentally change supply and demand (of course I'm being simplistic).  There will still be too many summer Palm Desert weeks, winter wherever weeks and Orlando always weeks.  So will Marriott dump all that back into II for Getaways, creating a back door for the same games we did play with trades?  If so, am I worse off picking up a 2 bedroom Getaway in Palm Desert for around $400 and enjoying my new points allocation (or home resort reservation) than I would have been "manipulating the old system"?  Under the old system, I would have paid $75 to lock off and up to two II exchange fees to play my games...hmmm, perhaps there will still be good games to play for those with flexibility.



I agree. Fundamentally, this doesn't increase demand. Getaways will still be there as will those shoulder and off season weeks. Those gem trades you got before in II will still happen.


----------



## ArtsieAng

My Marriott Aruba Surf Club 2 bdrm, Platinum OV is being given 4075 points. It would take 4650 points for me to reserve the week that I just reserved this past Feb. 

Also, 4075 points would not allow me to reserve a two bdrm OV in many of the prime resorts, during prime season. Sigh.


----------



## lll1929

*Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Gold - 2bdrm*

I called and found out my point value for Aruba Ocean Gold week is 3075 pts.  I was able to obtain April 22-29, 2011 at my resort using II with my 1bdrm.  When I look at the PDF, it looks like that week would cost 5275.  I definately feel like I got a better exchange with the existing program.  

When I asked the rep about the # of points needed to trade into that same room, she quoted me a lesser amount that the PDF...hmm.

I think I will keep things the way they are for right now.


----------



## aka Julie

*My 2 cents worth*



yumdrey said:


> My shadow ridge platinum week has 3075 points worth.
> Should I join the point system by paying $1495 or not? I would love to enjoy Marriott preference period in II if it is still available.
> Also would love to enjoy lock-off feature of my unit for 2 trades.
> I think they (2 weeks of trades and enjoy 24 Marriott priority days) have more value than joining point system by paying almost $1500.
> Want to hear other's opinion.



My Shadow Ridge Villages Platinum week is worth 3075 points also.  I bought resale and am curious if the points value is the same whether you bought developer or resale.  I believe it's the same but just want to confirm.  If so, I guess they "get" resale owners in the enrollment fee.

I'm still digesting all this and will be anxious to hear from folks who have booked sessions this week with sales people and post the little details that we all need to make an informed decision.

But as the owner of 2 silver weeks at Barony (developer purchase) and 1 platinum week at Shadow Ridge (resale), I'm not inclined to join for $2190. I'll be perfectly happy staying at our owned resorts.  Now if they make it too difficult to book the weeks I want during my season down the road, I won't be a happy camper. 

I've enjoyed some great exchanges with II using my silver Barony weeks.  If I join the new program those days are definitely over and they'll probably be over exchanging thru II also.


----------



## tlwmkw

It seems to me that owning a deeded week will retain value for re-sale better than buying into the new points program because at least you will have a guaranteed week at your home resort where-as with points you are only guaranteed that you own x number of points that you originally bought.  I certainly would not consider buying any Marriott if this is the case- I would want to have the deed and the home resort which I could at least use.

I wonder if the sales folks will be using the MVCI web site in their sales pitch- if so they are out of luck because you can't get into it- keep getting error messages.

tlwmkw


----------



## saturn28

Does anyone want to bet how long it will be until Marriott roles out "Marriott Classic" the same way that Coke roled out "Coke Classic" back in the 1980's


----------



## thadius65

Regardless of resale or through Marriott...  I am kinda lost as to the point valuation here?

Resale 2bd Oceanside Villa at Surf Club = 3500 pts? (Gold)

I have known others that have traded into Maui, Myrtle Beach, etc..  It appears if that is not possible anymore as the points for those locations are higher.  A nice 1 year owner anniversary for us!

Oh and in regards to the new "Sales Pitch"....   we are at surf club currently and will be listening to this tomorrow at 8:30am (for 15k points...).  The nice lady we signed up with kept saying about wonderful news coming, something never done before.  To be hones, regardless of how many Guiness I had remaining in my cooler..  I figured this was what was going to occur.


----------



## laurac260

*Question from a novice*

New at this so please bear with me:

Once upon a time I worked at a gym, and one of the things I did was sell memberships.  The occupancy of the building may have been say, 300ppl, but since you could pretty much guarantee that every single member would never show up at exactly the same time (thus putting us over occupancy), we freely continued to sell memberships with no "limit" in sight.

I mention this because, I am now wondering, does Marriott still have to adhere to "deeded" weeks, effectively limiting themselves to where they can only sell what physically exists, or does this open up the window to sell "memberships" to whomever wants one?  

Also, as a novice, we bought one week, on resale, platinum Grande Ocean, with the idea of using our intended facility, during our season.   Occasionally we will rent a week on Redweek in conjunction.

I don't see a reason to join this program.  But I am wondering, will membership in the program trump those of us who don't join?  Will we ever find a situation where we can no longer get a week at our resort during our purchased season?

And....do you think this will effectively kill Redweek, et al, rentals?


----------



## tlwmkw

Still can't get into the system to see what my points values might be.  

The funny thing is that the PDF shows points values for all those weeks but until people sigh up there won't be any weeks available (except at new resorts that Marriott dumps into the system) so you can dream of a week at Barony Beach or in Hawaii but until there are weeks deposited your points are fairly valueless- so the question is what if you bought a bunch of points today- what could you even get for your points?  This makes my head spin.  I won't be buying any of these points, ever!!!

tlwmkw


----------



## dougp26364

kedler said:


> From the disclosure guide (which you can get to by clicking on the enroll now page on my-vacation club) here is the link: https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/disclosure_guide.pdf.
> 
> Marriott is selling this new system as the "MVC Exchange Company" and the guide provides information about the *MVC Destinations Exchange Program*. There are two types of members:
> 
> "1. Trust Members. This paragraph only applies to Trust Members. For so long as the Association governing the Trust Member maintains its Affiliation Agreement with the Exchange Company, such Trust Member will be granted privileges in the Program as a Member, subject to the terms and conditions set forth in this Disclosure Guide. Other than the Affiliation Agreement, there is no Program contract with any Trust Member separate and distinct from the Trust Member’s contract with the Developer for the acquisition of an Interest at an Affiliate Program. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order for a Trust Member to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or the Association of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into and maintain an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to voluntarily reserve and use the Accommodations that are a part of the Program as described in the Exchange Procedures. If a Trust Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program (e.g., outside the Trust Member’s trust) or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Affiliation Agreement will occur. Every Affiliation Agreement will have a two year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by mutual agreement of the applicable Association and Exchange Company. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company."
> 
> AND
> 
> "2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur. Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company."
> 
> Here is the information on *RESALE & RENTING:
> *
> Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Exchange Benefits. Exchange Company may offer Exchange Benefits other than Base Exchange Benefits and Base Plus Exchange Benefits to certain Members, from time to time. Exchange Company reserves the right to establish such rules and regulations as it deems necessary to adequately govern Member access to Exchange Benefits which may include certain fees. In addition, Exchange Company reserves the right to restrict the offering or use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Exchange Benefits to certain Members, including, without limitation, allowing use of such Exchange Benefits only to those Members who purchase their Interests from an Approved Broker. The Exchange Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice. Some Exchange Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing Exchange Benefits.
> a. *Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest*, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.
> b. *Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program*, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner.
> 2. Personal Use; Commercial Purposes. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Exchange Benefits, and Use Periods *may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. *In the event a Member is determined to be reserving or using the Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Exchange Benefits, and Use Periods for any commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Member and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Exchange Company, in its sole and absolute discretion, from time to time. The restrictions of this paragraph do not apply to Exchange Company or its affiliates or designees."



WOW! So if I read this correctly and, if you buy in as a trust member and later want to sell your trust interest, Marriott is going to hit the new owner with a $2,000 initiation fee! That has to be the highest transfer fee in all of timeshare land. 

Since points aren't attached to anything other than the right to exchange, excluding a resale owner from the actual "exchange company" renders trust points worth less than nothing. In fact, they're worth -$2,000 IMHO.


----------



## thinze3

*Finally got in!*

Waiohai Beach Club platinum 4225 pts
(week 44)
BeachPlace Towers platinum 3225 pts
(week 3)
Legends Edge platinum 2250 pts
(week 31)

All in all it appears to be about right. It essentially would take two weeks at Legends Edge to trade into Waiohai.


----------



## NJDave

abdibile said:


> Everything you mentioned could happen, but availability of Marriott weeks in II could get worse independent from your decision to enroll to the new program or not. So your decision to join should only be dependent on how you value the additional benefits/options.




In my case, I do not want to spend another $1,500 (or $2,000) to convert when the value of my timeshare may now be worth less then $1,500 each.  The conversion fee is lost if you sell.  If the exchange possibilites to other Marriotts greatly diminishes, so does the value of the timeshare.


----------



## Asia2000

laurac260 said:


> I would guess the answer to that would be the same as before this program rolled out, which would be an emphatic NO!  The previous points program did not transfer.  Why would they transfer this one?
> 
> Seems to me they single handedly killed off both the resale market (or atleast tried to), and perhaps Redweek, et al. rentals as well????



Thanks for the response.  I think you are probably correct with the NO answer.  However, in the end, it is still the same 400,000 owners battling for the same 52 weeks at 50+ resorts.  Points or deeds, the demand will be the same.  Actually less, because point users instantly lose value or have the amount of time they can stay at resorts immediately slashed.

Pay $595 or $695 or $1,495 or $1,995 and shazam! you just took at 10% to 25% drop in the redemption value of your timeshare.  Plus the idea of upgrading (1bdrm to 2 bdrm) appears to be gone.  If you get beat over the head enough times, you begin to like it?  or at least think, this is normal.  Not I nor the TUG community.

If people choose not to go points, they will have to sell every "new to timeshares" prospect to make the program fly.

Not to sound too negative, but I find it interesting that in the Interval Buyers Guide PDF you will find on page 50, a list of timeshare programs with 101-250 members.  Guess who made that list, Marriott's Asia Pacific Membership Club.  Ouch!  I'm thinking Marriott didn't want that in the book.  4 plus years of selling and less than 250 members??


----------



## wsrobinson

SurfWatch Platinum Oceanside    5750

Barony      Silver     OCeanside    1925


----------



## thinze3

wsrobinson said:


> SurfWatch Platinum Oceanside    5750
> 
> Barony      Silver     OCeanside    1925



Your SurfWatch must be 3BR ???


----------



## wsrobinson

Has anyone figured out or address whether external point values are less than the internal values for the same weeks?


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

l2trade said:


> You must close on the Marriott resale purchase before 6/20/2010.  It is too late to buy resale now & be officially eligible to join the new program.  I would hope Marriott finds a reasonable exception to this rule for future resale buyers.  I see Marriott priced initial enrollment higher for existing resale buyers.  I am ok with that difference.  What about FUTURE resale buyers.  Does Marriott want me?  I waited for the details, now I see no reason to rush to buy if I cannot join the new program.  Without an exception, I might as well wait to see if folks who don't join remain happy with their home resort season availability.




'

If you plan to buy resale, put into the contract that the current owner must join the new system prior to your closing on it.

Under that scenario I would think those benefits would then transfer to the new buyer.


.


.


----------



## abdibile

Perhaps in the long run overall availability (especially for classic weeks owners) of high demand weeks even improves?

In the old system evryone was jumping on the best weeks in their season as soon as possible (12 or 13 months out).

For points owners peak weeks are relly expansive and lots of them probably decide to prefer two off-season weeks over one peak season week and there are more peak season weeks available to other owners.


----------



## erm

*Florida Club*

Just called owner services and found out that Florida Club will remain the same.  I own an EOY Legend's Edge and will be able to reserve at the other Florida Club properties at the 6 month mark.  Let's see what inventory is available at that point this year.  It seems like the new program is not something that will be advantageous to me as the owner of a fixed week 30 at Harbour Point HHI and the MLE platinum plus week.  I hope lots more Marriott owners feel like I do and we'll continue to get decent trades through II !!!!


----------



## thinze3

They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.


----------



## abdibile

Asia2000 said:


> Not to sound too negative, but I find it interesting that in the Interval Buyers Guide PDF you will find on page 50, a list of timeshare programs with 101-250 members.  Guess who made that list, Marriott's Asia Pacific Membership Club.  Ouch!  I'm thinking Marriott didn't want that in the book.  4 plus years of selling and less than 250 members??



I can't belive that. Everytime I was at the Phuket owners party lots of people there seemed to be points owners. I can not imagine that so many of 101-250 were on Phuket at the same time.


----------



## NJDave

dougp26364 said:


> WOW! So if I read this correctly and, if you buy in as a trust member and later want to sell your trust interest, Marriott is going to hit the new owner with a $2,000 initiation fee! That has to be the highest transfer fee in all of timeshare land.



They also reserve the right to adjust [increase] the amount of the initiation fee.


----------



## abdibile

thinze3 said:


> They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.



No! It is capped at $1995 (but can currently only be entolled over the phone, not online)


----------



## laurac260

ok, so NOW when Joe "never heard of timeshare ownership but might want to buy now" Public goes to a Marriott sales presentation, what is he buying?  A deeded week?  A membership to a vacation club?  And how much will it cost him?


----------



## thinze3

*scratch that - fine print says differently*



thinze3 said:


> They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.





_If you are a multiple-week Owner who purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club International and externally please do not enroll online. Instead, please contact Owner Services, as the total amount of your enrollment should not exceed $1,995._


----------



## 1965

i own (4) marriott Desert Springs/Platinum/annual use/two bedroom lock offs?

If i join the MVC/Points system?
can I use
MVC Points for (1) or (2) weeks per year
than
MVC weeks for (3) or (2) weeks per year?

or all (4) weeks MVC points? or all (4) weeks MVC weeks?


----------



## NJDave

thinze3 said:


> They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.





Somehwere I read that you only pay a maximum of 1,995.


----------



## laurac260

TheTimeTraveler said:


> '
> 
> If you plan to buy resale, put into the contract that the current owner must join the new system prior to your closing on it.
> 
> Under that scenario I would think those benefits would then transfer to the new buyer.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .



Why would you assume that benefits would transfer to a new resale purchaser, when the previous points program did not transfer?

And...what does this do to all the rewards points we have  been collecting?  Anything???


----------



## hipslo

I am being offered 5350 points for each of my mountainside platinum weeks, and 1325 for my fairway villas week, all purchased resale.  So far I can't seem to access the calendar telling me what it would cost to reserve a feb/march week at mountainside, which I have never had any trouble doing in the past, but somehow I think it will be more than 5350.

I sincerely hope that no platinum owners at mountainside fall for this nonsense, since, as a sold out resort, it seems that the only weeks that marriott could remove from the "weeks" inventory are those held by owners who convert.  

My worry, though, is that there will be some owners who convert, and the inventory is then allocated in a manner that is other than pro rata by week and by check in day.  So far I have seen nothing in the materials released that gets into how the inventory is to be allocated.  "Hello marriott, this is marriott" doesnt give me a lot of comfort. 

Those of you who don't think marriott will game the system to tilt the inventory allocation in favor of points probably also didnt think that marriott would, in many cases, award a number of points to those converting that are not sufficient to enable the converting owners to reserve many (most?  all?) of the weeks in their existing season.

No way am I converting.  It seems that only time will tell whether I will continue to be able to reserve the weeks in my season that I always have.  I suspect it will become more difficult.  Hoepfully it will not become impossible.  I paid a lot of money for my weeks, even resale.


----------



## dougp26364

thinze3 said:


> They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.



Marriott has listed the maximum cost as $1,995. I believe they've asked owners of resale weeks to call them rather than try to enroll online. Perhaps the online system doesn't recognize this cap.

OPPS, this thread moves to fast. I see this has been addressed multiple times already.


----------



## thinze3

If I understand this correctly, resale owners who wish to sell in the future would have value if they join the program first. The future buyer would be able to pay $2000 and join the program. This would be much cheaper than buying points from Marriott.


----------



## erm

Terry, 2 Legend's Edge weeks = 1 Waiohai week.  At approximately $2000 I would think you'd be able to rent that Waiohai week from an owner without too much trouble.
f


----------



## timtax

*Hidden Fee*



saturn28 said:


> They will look at the week number you have on your deed. That is what it showed when I tried to enroll. The assigned deeded week I have for my Platinum Grande Vista week is 4, which just happens to be one of the lowest points value in their new chart for a platinum week at Grande Vista. I only get  2775 points. However, according to their chart just about all the other platinum weeks require more than 3000 points. That is terrible. I am not happy at all with my first look at how this thing works. I had no choice at what deed platinum week I got. It was chosen for me.



The difference between the value assigned to you for your unit and the price to use points to reserve that week is just a hidden marriott fee or rental commission for making the exchange. It is simply the cost to exchange vs use your week.


----------



## 1965

i feel very threatened by this new Marriott points because I now get
(3) two bedooms trades thru Interval for each of my (2) bedroom Marriotts
but
i am curious if Marriott Vacation club points might be a little positive for me.



I have 2900 MVC Points for my MDS/Platinium
+
I can get (1) bedroom at marriott Ko Olina Beachclub for only 975 marriott
points
 for (3) sunday-thursdy nights in october,2011
(325) x (3)=975 points


this is very very appleaing

what happens to the other
1925 MVC Points??

when can I make this direct reservation, with MArriott?
obvioulsy
Marriott Ko olilna Beach club/owners
must have some advantage over me?


----------



## Asia2000

From Asia2000 





> Not to sound too negative, but I find it interesting that in the Interval Buyers Guide PDF you will find on page 50, a list of timeshare programs with 101-250 members. Guess who made that list, Marriott's Asia Pacific Membership Club. Ouch! I'm thinking Marriott didn't want that in the book. 4 plus years of selling and less than 250 members??






abdibile said:


> I can't belive that. Everytime I was at the Phuket owners party lots of people there seemed to be points owners. I can not imagine that so many of 101-250 were on Phuket at the same time.



My mistake.  I posted an error.  I was thinking this number was referring to total members, but it is Interval memberships.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## calgal

I think that this new development will boost participation in alternative exchange companies such as SFX. My impression is that once a week is deposited into II it will become part of the available points inventory, and that the Marriott week to week exchange model is dead in II.


----------



## jesuis1837

Let me see....  they want me to pay 1495$ PLUS an annual fees for that program and i'll get only 2950 points???

Perry was right; all they want is your money and try another way to rip you off...  no way i'm enrolling! I dont see anything good there while with my 2 bedroom i was able to trade in Aruba at will.. it seems now i would have to pay much more $$ (aka chart). I will still stick with II and hopefully i wont be the last... and if i cant get anything now with II well  here comes SFX or their friends...


----------



## wsrobinson

thinze3 said:


> Your SurfWatch must be 3BR ???



No, it is a 2 bedroom


----------



## dougp26364

hipslo said:


> I am being offered 5350 points for each of my mountainside platinum weeks, and 1325 for my fairway villas week, all purchased resale.  So far I can't seem to access the calendar telling me what it would cost to reserve a feb/march week at mountainside, which I have never had any trouble doing in the past, but somehow I think it will be more than 5350.



6,900 points for a 2 bedroom in Feb/March.

The only chance I see is that the points table we're looking at on the PDF isn't accurate. The URL isn't a Marriott URL.


----------



## wsrobinson

So, based on values given previously for summer weeks on HH I have more than enough points to reserve a summer week (5750 vs. 4500).  Its not all doom and gloom.


----------



## 1965

cal gal:
why would the Interval/Marriott week to Marriott week
Interval/Marriott trading advantage be dead, as you sugguested.

If you are correct, my Trading model is 100% destroyed!


----------



## laurac260

thinze3 said:


> If I understand this correctly, resale owners who wish to sell in the future would have value if they join the program first. The future buyer would be able to pay $2000 and join the program. This would be much cheaper than buying points from Marriott.



Where did you see this?  I saw two things that make this not possible.  #1 that resales had to CLOSE prior to June 20, 2010 (today) and that as a resale purchaser, I saw that I had until Dec 31st, 2010 to join.  Reading that, it looks to me as though resale purchasers hands are being turned that we HAVE to join (or atleast we should assume that we HAVE to join).   Where did you see that future buyers would be able to pay $2000?   And is that future direct purchase buyers?


----------



## 1965

I am more confused than ever?

will the Marriott Vacation club points (2900) for MDS #2
just be used thru marriott like I was use to read doing thru Disney vcation club

certain MVC Resort
certain time of year
certain day of week

point requirement

or
will I still use my (2900) MDS points thru Interval
to get Interval/Trades of marriott properties
thru Marriot new point system

I was feeling better than someone suggested that marriott weeks trades thru Interval with marriott trading advantage
are 100% going to be dead


----------



## deedman

i guess it's time to start a class action lawsuit.  having people buy into a points program that offers less points for what the week actually takes to stay in doesn't seem very kosher.  Especially if they truly kill the II exchange functionality for owners.


----------



## abdibile

It does not look like Marriott sucked all the weeks deposited with Interval out of Interval into their new exchange pool. 

I still see some quite high demand weeks being available in Interval.

Lets hope this does not change too much in the future.


----------



## 1965

i think people have used marriott bronze weeks/Lock offs at 60 days
to get really nice marriott Haiwiian properties in low season, as an effectivfe trading strategy.

I wonder how many MVC points those properties are worth


----------



## hipslo

dougp26364 said:


> 6,900 points for a 2 bedroom in Feb/March.
> 
> The only chance I see is that the points table we're looking at on the PDF isn't accurate. The URL isn't a Marriott URL.




Thanks.  The links to the chart on the new marriott website is not working for me, and I can't seem to access davidvel's pdf chart.  Are the points folks are citing coming from david's pdf?  If so, david what is the source of that chart?


----------



## gmarine

Many resale buyers havent paid much more than $1500 for their weeks. I cant see these same owners shelling out another $1500 to join this program. I certainly wont pay $1500 to join.


----------



## abdibile

hipslo said:


> Thanks.  The links to the chart on the new marriott website is not working for me, and I can't seem to access davidvel's pdf chart.  Are the points folks are citing coming from david's pdf?  If so, david what is the source of that chart?



You can download that chart during the enrollent process.


----------



## pacheco18

deedman said:


> i guess it's time to start a class action lawsuit.  having people buy into a points program that offers less points for what the week actually takes to stay in doesn't seem very kosher.



There is no viable lawsuit here (I am an attorney).
You are not forced to buy into the program.
You can keep what you bought - you were never guaranteed any SPECIFIC trade -- only the right to use your unit in the season you bought and the ability to trade into other resorts (WHERE UNITS ARE AVAILABLE). There was never a guarantee of availability.  What most are saying here is that perhaps the availability of "good trades"  or "trading up" will decrease.  No contract promised either. And if a salesman told you you could do so, any representations by a salesman are voided by the merger clause in the contract.

Personally, I think this program has a high probability of failure or at least huge problems and, as someone posted, Classic Coke might return.


----------



## hipslo

*Allocation of Inventory*

So far the only thing I have seen concerning source of inventory in the materials released is the following:

"Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."

No mention is made as to how inventory is to be allocated between the pool available to points and the pool not available to points.  This seems to be a key question in evaluating the new system.  If anyone is taking a sales tour in the near future, it would be great if you could ask for details as to how the allocation is to work, and to try to get something in writing on this.


----------



## NJDave

laurac260 said:


> Where did you see this?  I saw two things that make this not possible.  #1 that resales had to CLOSE prior to June 20, 2010 (today) and that as a resale purchaser, I saw that I had until Dec 31st, 2010 to join.  Reading that, it looks to me as though resale purchasers hands are being turned that we HAVE to join (or atleast we should assume that we HAVE to join).   Where did you see that future buyers would be able to pay $2000?   And is that future direct purchase buyers?





I interpreted it to mean that the conversion rights do not transfer for subbsequent sales.

I was thinking that this could change over time whereby Marriott offers incentives for resale legacy deed owners to join.  However, then I realized that if Marriott controls the Interval inventory, that they wouldn't need the resale owners to convert.  The market value of resales will drop, Marriott will buy them with ROFR, and convert and sell them for points.

I sound like Perry now and I was one who thought Marriott would do the right thing.


----------



## timeos2

*You get average but request specific*



dougp26364 said:


> That flexibility comes at a very high price from what I'm seeing. Marriott takes you week, gives you points but, gives you fewer points than what they charge other owners to reserve that week. Right there is a discrepency in valuation. They give you 4,000 points but charge everyone else 5,000 points for the SAME week. Marriott just made a 1,000 point profit on the transaction. Eventually, some TUGGER will be able to put a $ value on those points so we can better estimate how much Marriott is getting into points members pockets.
> 
> Compare this with both DRI and HGVC and you can see how unfair the program is to owners.
> 
> 1. With both DRI and HGVC, I receive enough points for my weeks to book any week in the season I originally purchased. With Marriott no-can-do.
> 
> 2. Marriott has reserved the right to vary points depending on demand. DRI and HGVC are fixed and can never vary. If I buy a certain number of points to stay in Hawaii, I know I'll always have enough points to reserve that week. With Marriott, again no-can-do.
> 
> The more I look at this program, the more I believe Marriott is giving their owners the shaft. I never would have thought that about Marriott until now. They had a chance to hit a home run with this new program. Instead it's more like the squib that's picked up by the catcher for the easy out at first.



I don't think the differences you feel are there actually exist. In most (all?) points systems - especially those based on internal inventory vs third party as in RCI Points - what an owner receives in points for their ownership is the average points for the season/use type they own. That hardly ever is the same as the published points required to reserve that use at the resort.  Because you own the rights at the home resort what it takes in points to get that reservation doesn't matter - you can reserve your use time as you always could. You don't get the maximum value of the highest week as you don't get that every year nor do you get the least value of that season as you don't get that every use period either. You get the average of all of the season as that best represents what you purchased as converted to Points. 

But once you step outside your home ownership you are on the "use" points grid and can get savings or require extra points to complete a use request based on the size, dates, etc of what you are requesting. DRI works that way as does Wyndham and many others. It appears the new Marriott system follows the same path. 

In other systems the ability to pool, bank, borrow, rent and buy points allows owners to adjust use/ownership to their specific needs. I assume the Marriott system has that as well but haven't seen any details if they do.  If they don't offer banking/pooling then that is another negative for the new system (#3 by my count).  On we go.


----------



## aka Julie

abdibile said:


> No! It is capped at $1995 (but can currently only be entolled over the phone, not online)



When I go thru the faux enrollment process this what they show for enrollment fees for me:

2 Barony silver weeks (developer bought) -- $695
1 Shadow Ridge platimum week (resale bought) -- $1495
Total -- $2190

So unless the website is wrong, it's not capped at $1995.  I'm not going to bother calling, since I don't think we'll be enrolling.


----------



## pacheco18

> If anyone is taking a sales tour in the near future, it would be great if you could ask for details as to how the allocation is to work, and to try to get something in writing on this.



You would trust a SALESPERSON to tell you this?  Not only have we all learned that many salespeople cannot be trusted, but they are not authorized to put anything in writing much less bind Marriott.

I think this first Announcement will be followed by many subsequent memos.  They simply did not anticipate the many questions that would and could be raised, especially by some of the real experts on this site.


----------



## wsrobinson

aka Julie said:


> When I go thru the faux enrollment process this what they show for enrollment fees for me:
> 
> 2 Barony silver weeks (developer bought) -- $695
> 1 Shadow Ridge platimum week (resale bought) -- $1495
> Total -- $2190
> 
> So unless the website is wrong, it's not capped at $1995.  I'm not going to bother calling, since I don't think we'll be enrolling.



There is a disclaimer there you just missed it.  There is also a note to contact them about your weeks because some are non-developer purchases.  You will get a break on the 1495 amount.


----------



## calgal

"non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International." That was part of the answer to where will this inventory come from? That sounds like points members have access to the inventory from week deposits.


----------



## DanCali

thinze3 said:


> Waiohai Beach Club platinum 4225 pts
> (week 44)
> BeachPlace Towers platinum 3225 pts
> (week 3)
> Legends Edge platinum 2250 pts
> (week 31)
> 
> *All in all it appears to be about right*. It essentially would take two weeks at Legends Edge to trade into Waiohai.



Nothing apears about right... Have you looked at the points required to trade *into* Waiohai? More like 5K-6K...


----------



## wsrobinson

dougp26364 said:


> That flexibility comes at a very high price from what I'm seeing. Marriott takes you week, gives you points but, gives you fewer points than what they charge other owners to reserve that week. Right there is a discrepency in valuation. They give you 4,000 points but charge everyone else 5,000 points for the SAME week. Marriott just made a 1,000 point profit on the transaction. Eventually, some TUGGER will be able to put a $ value on those points so we can better estimate how much Marriott is getting into points members pockets.
> 
> Compare this with both DRI and HGVC and you can see how unfair the program is to owners.
> 
> 1. With both DRI and HGVC, I receive enough points for my weeks to book any week in the season I originally purchased. With Marriott no-can-do.
> 
> 2. Marriott has reserved the right to vary points depending on demand. DRI and HGVC are fixed and can never vary. If I buy a certain number of points to stay in Hawaii, I know I'll always have enough points to reserve that week. With Marriott, again no-can-do.
> 
> The more I look at this program, the more I believe Marriott is giving their owners the shaft. I never would have thought that about Marriott until now. They had a chance to hit a home run with this new program. Instead it's more like the squib that's picked up by the catcher for the easy out at first.



This isn't true in all cases.  My SurfWatch week is valued at 5750 points which is more than enough (4500) to stay for 7 days at SurfWatch in platinum season.


----------



## abdibile

If classic Interval weeks exhangers would have the same chance to reserve these weeks deposited into Interval than MVC Points owners, I would not really care.

But it would be problematic if Marriott could move high demand weeks out of Interval into their own "reserve"  inventory without any MVC Points owner having requested that high demand week.


----------



## timeos2

*Not the highest at all*



dougp26364 said:


> WOW! So if I read this correctly and, if you buy in as a trust member and later want to sell your trust interest, Marriott is going to hit the new owner with a $2,000 initiation fee! That has to be the highest transfer fee in all of timeshare land.
> 
> Since points aren't attached to anything other than the right to exchange, excluding a resale owner from the actual "exchange company" renders trust points worth less than nothing. In fact, they're worth -$2,000 IMHO.



DRI gets $2999 to "rejoin" THE Club if the underlying ownership (non-trust) is transferred/resold.  

Needless to say resale values aren't impacted favorably. I doubt Marriotts will be either. Marriott was once one of the handful that held reasonable resale value but those days are long gone and about to get worse.


----------



## DanCali

TheTimeTraveler said:


> '
> 
> If you plan to buy resale, put into the contract that the current owner must join the new system prior to your closing on it.
> 
> Under that scenario I would think those benefits would then transfer to the new buyer.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .



Weeks purchased on the resale market after 6/20/10 are not eligible. Period.


----------



## David10225

Here is the link to where I saw how many points it takes to reserve a week

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/2_pointsCharts.jsp 

I got it from one of the posts above me.

As you can see...a WHOLE week at Heritage Club in 2011
May 27 – Aug 25 
Fri – Sat 625 (per night)
Sun – Thur 250 (per night)
Full Week 2,500

VS

Barony Beach

May 27 – Aug 25
Fri – Sat 1,125  (per night)
Sun – Thur 450 (per night)
Full Week  4,500   this is for ocean side, not ocean front

So a big difference right there...I never stayed at Heritage Club, but I think it is the one in Sea Pines not on the beach..but hey...for 2500....worth it to be in HHI!

I still can find out how many points they will give me for my platinum BB


----------



## 1965

i am not going to marriott point system till I am forced to
I am staying with Marriott Week system
I was told by MVC a few minutes this

It will cost me $1995 to enroll my (4) MDS #2 Platinium into
MVC point system
they will be MVC points forever
 unless I have them moved back to
Marriott Week system
but
if I move them back to MVC point system later in life
They will cost me $1995 every single time I do this


when I use my MVC 2900 points per year
that I get from MDS #2/Platinium

they expire after (1) year
no banking
I asked very very specific no value
after (1) year


here is the really bad news for me at some point in my life.

#1. Every single marriott retail from this point 
is in the Marriott point system
Marriott week system is dead, for all Marriott Retail purchases
This means no deposits every again
on any Marriott property that comes into creatioj after June 20,2010.
this means no deposits every again by an marriott retail owner when he deposits his weeks with marriott,
 that marriott retail owner bought after June 20,2010.

#2.
 Every single marriott retail or marriott resale owner 
that converts to marriott point system starting June 20,2010. 
The weeks that person trades
for the rest of their life
for marriott points 
that trades will placed in
the inventory
that  is in Marriott Trust/Marriott point system
and
can never again be a eligible for Interval/Marriott/Trade
with marriott Interval Trading Advantage
that is so important to me.


----------



## hipslo

pacheco18 said:


> You would trust a SALESPERSON to tell you this?



No but I would be interested in both the response to the question, and the response to the request to put it in writing.  If I were taking the tour, I might say that I am inclined to purchase but need the details on this point, in writing, before I am willing to committ, and then see what happens. 


Ultimately, I doubt anything will ever be provided on this point, which ought to be telling in and of itself.


----------



## hipslo

calgal said:


> "non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International." That was part of the answer to where will this inventory come from? That sounds like points members have access to the inventory from week deposits.



clearly, that is what the language states


----------



## vacationlover2

I think the new system is terrible, for me anyway.  My Manor Club Sequel is worth 2375.  My Surf Club Gold Garden is worth 2575.  When I like to go, I would have to use more points than I'm getting for my week.

Plus, as a resale buyer, it would cost me almost $2000 to join.  But I see no benefit.  Also, with a corporate II membership, can we go on and trade and do getaways?  I know with Disney you can't.  I like that option.  Does anyone know that answer?

I think this may make Marriotts even more valuable in II.


----------



## hipslo

wsrobinson said:


> This isn't true in all cases.  My SurfWatch week is valued at 5750 points which is more than enough (4500) to stay for 7 days at SurfWatch in platinum season.



Interesting.  Probably the exception, rather than the norm, and also designed to provide high incentive to get certain owners to enroll.

The language also states that the number of points allocated to any week that is enrolled is subject to change each year.  What we like (or don't like) now could be totally different next year.


----------



## David10225

If I was someone like SFX...I would be aggressively going after every Marriott platinum week owner NOW....I've been tempted to try them, but was always worried about their inventory.


----------



## hipslo

vacationlover2 said:


> I think this may make Marriotts even more valuable in II.



Unlikely.  All deposited marriott weeks are (potentially) withdrawn from II by marriott and are made available to marriott points owners.  Why would II assign high trade value to weeks that are withdrawn from II by marriott?


----------



## NJDave

There is already point inflation going on.  Just look at how many more points are required to reserve at Lakeshore Reserve versus the other Orlando resorts.


----------



## saturn28

*Will Marriott Weeks Owners be Able to Exchange into New Marriott Resorts*

Will Marriott weeks owners that don't convert to points be able to stay exchange into new Marriott Resorts that are selling points only


----------



## David10225

hipslo said:


> Interesting.  Probably the exception, rather than the norm, and also designed to provide high incentive to get certain owners to enroll.
> 
> The language also states that the number of points allocated to any week that is enrolled is subject to change each year.  What we like (or don't like) now could be totally different next year.



If it is indeed accurate that the number of points you will receive each year can change....AND the number of points required to reserve at a particular resort can change...that that is two very big red flags.  I would assume they would have something in their documents like...the total number of points at any given resort is fixed, but the number per day, per unit and per season is subject to change in the future....sort of like what Disney has


----------



## laurac260

It would be interesting to be sitting at a resort right now with NON TUGgers to see if anyone has a clue about this, and if so, what the buzz is.  But it does just occur to me, this is ONE Week per year of my life.  I am watching this like it effects the other 51.  I'm out.  Have a Happy Father's day everyone!


----------



## wsrobinson

hipslo said:


> Interesting.  Probably the exception, rather than the norm, and also designed to provide high incentive to get certain owners to enroll.
> 
> The language also states that the number of points allocated to any week that is enrolled is subject to change each year.  What we like (or don't like) now could be totally different next year.



That could be the case.  I certainly EXPECT values to go up in the future so Marriott can come back for more money.  As it stands now with 5750 for SurfWatch plat 2 bed oceanside and 1925 for BB silver 2 bed oceanside I can go almost anywhere in Marriott's system.  7675 will get me just about anything.  I am certainly intrigued by the new system.


----------



## DanCali

*Good news to non converters (II)*



hipslo said:


> Unlikely.  All deposited marriott weeks are (potentially) withdrawn from II by marriott and are made available to marriott points owners.  Why would II assign high trade value to weeks that are withdrawn from II by marriott?



I think the II topic merits a new thread, 

*Modertaors - feel free to split this post to a new thread...*


I spoke this morning with two different II reps and asked how i am affected if I do not convert. Their answer was - *"the change affects only those who enroll"*

They both said that you can still deposit the week you resreve and the Marriott priority remains.

I'll try calling owner services too...



> "non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."



I think that language regarding inventory (I alluded to this somewhere early in the thread) somehow relates to weeks deposited into II through Marriott, although i am not sure how. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few owners operate in that manner when depositing.


----------



## David10225

Since this is Father's day..I'm allowing myself extra time on the computer this AM instead of lawn work as I should be doing  

Let me say two things and I'll get off and let others have a chance...

1.  I'm am so waiting to hear from PerryM!  

2.  I sold my Disney points to buy the Marriott at HHI.  I got tired of trying to get in every summer and having no availability (except for those expensive Friday and Saturday nights).  So while I still can go to HHI every summer if I choose, my ability to try different Marriott resorts seems to be diminished now unless I join this club..


----------



## pacheco18

hipslo; said:
			
		

> The language also states that the number of points allocated to any week that is enrolled is subject to change each year.  What we like (or don't like) now could be totally different next year.



A contract that is binding on us as owners and not on Marriott is EXPLETIVE.
No one in their right mind signs a contract like that.


----------



## 1965

dancali:
at some point with all the new marriott retail purchases and all the
marriott convertors have access to
Marriott points thru mariott pointstrust system
and
marriott weeks thru interval and back to marriott  points trust system

while Marriott week owners (non converters)
will only have limited access to Marriott weeks thru Interval
and
of course/ not access to marriott points trust system?

if this is all true, pls tell me it will be several years
before this occurs?


----------



## DanCali

DanCali said:


> I think the II topic merits a new thread,
> 
> *Modertaors - feel free to split this post to a new thread...*
> 
> 
> I spoke this morning with two different II reps and asked how i am affected if I do not convert. Their answer was - *"the change affects only those who enroll"*
> 
> They both said that you can still deposit the week you resreve and the Marriott priority remains.
> 
> I'll try calling owner services too...



An Owner Services rep also confirmed - no changes with II if you don't convert... You deposit the week you reserve and that inventory is separate.

 They did try to get me to buy more points to get the trades I want with points though.


----------



## aka Julie

DanCali said:


> An Owner Services rep also confirmed - no changes with II if you don't convert... You deposit the week you reserve and that inventory is separate.
> 
> They did try to get me to buy more points to get the trades I want with points though.



They're already shaking folks down!


----------



## hipslo

*Implications for 13 month rule - Not Good for Weeks Owners?*

While I suppose this won't matter if weeks and points inventory are truly kept separate (unless allocation of reservations between the two pools is purely "first come first serve" as between points and weeks), but I have been playing around with a new calendar on the mvci website that tells you the first date on which you can call in to reserve under points if you qualify as premiere or premiere plus, at 13 months in advance, and, lo and behold, points owners get a couple of days jump on weeks owners in terms of the first date to call in.


----------



## David10225

Hmmmm..

7 night cruise on the Radiance of the Seas to Alaska for 2 people in an outside cabin in July 2010 is 2650 vacation club points......

That same trip on cruise.com is $1509 for two people......hmmmmmmmm


----------



## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> DRI gets $2999 to "rejoin" THE Club if the underlying ownership (non-trust) is transferred/resold.
> 
> Needless to say resale values aren't impacted favorably. I doubt Marriotts will be either. Marriott was once one of the handful that held reasonable resale value but those days are long gone and about to get worse.



This is true but, with DRI, you can still use your deeded week. With DRI if you buy trust based points, you can still reserve within that trust without paying a joiner fee at all. As I read this, with Marriott if a trust based owner sells their trust based points, the new owner can't use those points UNTIL the transfer/joiner fee of $2,000 has been paid. Again I say WOW!


----------



## pacheco18

And cruise.com isn't the best deal out there -- LOL


----------



## timeos2

*They are at the head of the line*



DanCali said:


> An Owner Services rep also confirmed - no changes with II if you don't convert... You deposit the week you reserve and that inventory is separate.
> 
> They did try to get me to buy more points to get the trades I want with points though.



The language in the other areas discussing II trades indicates that while the old system allowing individual members to make deposits to II will remain intact as well as the ability to request - including the Marriott priority- the actual weeks available are likely to drop as Marriott Points steps in as one of those priority blessed users & stands ready and willing to take the deposit as soon as it arrives. You are now competing with an entity that has a use for virtually ALL deposits and the ability - points based exchanges - to take that inventory for use. 

While the process hasn't changed it appears the availability of inventory may be highly impacted (as in it's gone) in many cases.


----------



## NJDave

DanCali said:


> An Owner Services rep also confirmed - no changes with II if you don't convert... You deposit the week you reserve and that inventory is separate.




The issue is that it may become more difficult to reserve the week you want where you own since you will be competing with points owner too.  

In addition, Marriott can choose not to deposit "point weeks" in Interval and rent them instead.

The concern is that over time, it will be more difficult to book a prime week where you own and there will be less inventory available in Interval.


----------



## abdibile

timeos2 said:


> While the process hasn't changed it appears the availability of inventory may be highly impacted (as in *it's gone*) in many cases.



This should be true for Starwood under their current system right? Probably even worse as Starwood controls all II deposits, not just II deposits of SVN members (for Marriott it currently looks like classic weeks owners still have control of what dates they deposit into II)

But I still see lots of good Starwood weeks on II, so I do not expect it to be much worse with Marriott.


----------



## lovearuba

*Incentive to sign*

I am surprised that Marriott is not allowing owners to sign up for free. Given what we know about marmots practice of devaluing points, truly why would you sign up.  You are signing up to pay for something marriiott previosly told you was part of your whole vacation experience. Now you sign up and pay and they lock you into allowing them to change the rules. They can devalue the point system and make it difficult to use your week and when you no longer want to participate you have to pay to get out. This is one sided and their lawyers carefully worked on that


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> The language in the other areas discussing II trades indicates that while the old system allowing individual members to make deposits to II will remain intact as well as the ability to request - including the Marriott priority- *the actual weeks available are likely to drop as Marriott Points steps in as one of those priority blessed users & stands ready and willing to take the deposit as soon as it arrives.*



...unless I condition my week's arrival on getting the exchange I want - using Request First.


----------



## hipslo

hipslo said:


> While I suppose this won't matter if weeks and points inventory are truly kept separate (unless allocation of reservations between the two pools is purely "first come first serve" as between points and weeks), but I have been playing around with a new calendar on the mvci website that tells you the first date on which you can call in to reserve under points if you qualify as premiere or premiere plus, at 13 months in advance, and, lo and behold, points owners get a couple of days jump on weeks owners in terms of the first date to call in.




Actually, playing around further with the calendar, this seems to vary by month and based on whether check in day is fri, sat or sun.  Havent been able to figure out the logic or pattern behind it yet.  Perhaps its just a glitch in the website?


----------



## 1965

The Marriott representaive just called me back, he gave me wrong information, you can bank your Marriott Points into the next use year.They do not expire after one year
they only expire after one year
if you do not bank them


----------



## DanCali

hipslo said:


> Actually, playing around further with the calendar, this seems to vary by month and based on whether check in day is fri, sat or sun.  Havent been able to figure out the logic or pattern behind it yet.  Perhaps its just a glitch in the website?



OK -  I read through all the posts here late last night and early this morning, so I may have missed this due to lack of sleep... Can you lease recap:

Who gets to be premier or premier plus in the new system?

What are their 13 month booking rules? 

Isn't "13 months" defined the same for weeks an points? If not, what about "12 months" then?


----------



## wsrobinson

1965 said:


> The Marriott representaive just called me back, he gave me wrong information, you can bank your Marriott Points into the next use year.They do not expire after one year
> they only expire after one year
> if you do not bank them



I am more intrigued now.


----------



## Stefa

timeos2 said:


> the actual weeks available are likely to drop as Marriott Points steps in as one of those priority blessed users & stands ready and willing to take the deposit as soon as it arrives. You are now competing with an entity that has a use for virtually ALL deposits and the ability - points based exchanges - to take that inventory for use.
> 
> While the process hasn't changed it appears the availability of inventory may be highly impacted (as in it's gone) in many cases.



I'm a little confused.  How can Marriott just take the weeks our of II?  Are you saying they would just take the high demand weeks and replace (exchange) them with a dog week from the point system?


----------



## ondeadlin

The thing that strikes me most is what an INCREDIBLE screwing this is to everyone who bought developer. After paying two, three and even five times more than what their same weeks cost retail, MVCI won't even enroll their weeks for free ... nope ... all they get is a small break over what resale buyers pay. Incredible.

And then, of course, they offer everyone wholesale prices for their weeks and jury rig the system so they can steal the best weeks deposited with II. It's brilliantly and brazenly indifferent to their previous purchasers.

I hope all the folks on there who have blindly sung Marriott's praises for so long take notice. They could care less about developer purchasers.

This system is guaranteed to do only three things: 1. Make more money for Marriott; 2. Destroy resale values of all but the most intrinsically valuable weeks (read: ski weeks and beach weeks, but probably not Hawaii because of the MFS); 3. Destroy owner loyalty from anyone who bought prior to this system being implemented.

I'd been waiting until the change was announced before buying Hyatt points, just in case Marriott surprised me and put together a good system. What a sucker I was to even think it could happen ...


----------



## dougp26364

David10225 said:


> Hmmmm..
> 
> 7 night cruise on the Radiance of the Seas to Alaska for 2 people in an outside cabin in July 2010 is 2650 vacation club points......
> 
> That same trip on cruise.com is $1509 for two people......hmmmmmmmm



I would suspect that if you check into that a little further, you'll find that's 2,650 points per person based on double occupancy. So the total number of points may very well be 5,300 points.


----------



## wsrobinson

DanCali said:


> OK -  I read through all the posts here late last night and early this morning, so I may have missed this due to lack of sleep... Can you lease recap:
> 
> Who gets to be premier or premier plus in the new system?
> 
> What are their 13 month booking rules?
> 
> Isn't "13 months" defined the same for weeks an points? If not, what about "12 months" then?



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930089&postcount=8


----------



## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> The language in the other areas discussing II trades indicates that while the old system allowing individual members to make deposits to II will remain intact as well as the ability to request - including the Marriott priority- the actual weeks available are likely to drop as Marriott Points steps in as one of those priority blessed users & stands ready and willing to take the deposit as soon as it arrives. You are now competing with an entity that has a use for virtually ALL deposits and the ability - points based exchanges - to take that inventory for use.
> 
> While the process hasn't changed it appears the availability of inventory may be highly impacted (as in it's gone) in many cases.



I'm glad we own at resorts we enjoy. We'll still exchange our Lock-off units thorugh Interval and maybe do request first exchanges with the master suite at MGC. We'll just have to expand our searches outside of the Marriott family. 

Right now, I'm glad I don't have all my eggs in one basket. I never thought I'd see the day when Marriott moved themselves out of my favorite timeshare developer slot and onto the back burner.


----------



## l2trade

timeos2 said:


> Sounds like they have worked a deal with II to pull non-points weeks deposits out of II using points to fulfill points requests. THAT is a new twist and one I haven't seen before from a points system. That really does the the potential to hurt inventory availability for "traditional" weeks II members as it is yet another priority claim on incoming deposits from any Marriott resort.
> 
> I'll admit this idea had not occurred to me before and if I were a weeks owner trading for Marriotts inII it would be very troublesome. Negative #2 so far.



This is fascinating!  IMHO, I see both Starwood and Marriott took very different approaches *to effectively achieve essentially the same thing with II*.  Non-SVN Starwood owners can only exchange with their seasonal placeholder assignment, which represents average trade value of all floating weeks they own.  Non-Points enrolled Marriott owners will still get to trade with specific reservations and *THINK* they are getting the trade value that represents that specific week.  

In both systems, the developer and II are balancing the inventory books in the back end.  Starwood showed owners what they were really up to.  Marriott learned from Starwood owner outrage and lawsuit threats.  Marriott and II are cleverly masking what they agreed to.  Once II has usage rights from an owner (i.e. - deposit or exchange completed), I believe they have the *legal* right to negotiate/exchange/balance out those weeks with alternate inventory from the affiliate developer.  Marriott and II devised an approach which I think does the same thing as Starwood, yet adds enough levels of abstraction from individual accounts that the threat of a lawsuit is significantly diminished and would be so much harder to investigate, prove and quantify damages.  Starwood could learn a thing or two from it's more sophisticated and marketing savvy rival.

IMHO, so clever, indeed!  Brilliant job Marriott!  I agree this is a *big negative* for informed owners and Tuggers like me.  However, most typical owners won't have a clue what just happened and will likely buy into the 'fairness' pitch of the new point system.


----------



## hipslo

DanCali said:


> What are their 13 month booking rules?
> 
> Isn't "13 months" defined the same for weeks an points? If not, what about "12 months" then?



there is a new calendar on the mvci website that shows first date when certain points owners can call in 13 months in advance, and it does not seem to align with the rules for weeks owners.  sometimes points gets a jump of a day or two, and sometimes weeks gets a jump of a day or two, without any ryhme or reason (at least not that I have yet been able to discern).


----------



## timeos2

*It is all above board but impacts weeks owners that trade*



Stefa said:


> I'm a little confused.  How can Marriott just take the weeks our of II?  Are you saying they would just take the high demand weeks and replace (exchange) them with a dog week from the point system?



Marriott has a published chart of points values for weeks to be used from II. So if an owner deposits week X and it is worth Y points all Marriott Points has to do is say to II "Use "Y" points from our massive deposit of YYYYY points to take that week reservation. Done. Week gone. They used their priority in advance of the Marriott owner priority to grab the use time. 

Since the agreement is in place and the values known there is nothing wrong with the move. They are simply using the system to claim a week from II for the value stated. Now it is in the Marriott Points system inventory - not II anymore - and Marriott Points members can utilize it while the week for week II trader has to keep waiting for a deposit that doesn't get claimed by Marriott Points as a trade. 

Especially for the prime demand times there is no reason for Marriott to wait for a points member to actually request the week as they have the needed points banked and it will almost certainly be claimed by ponts members if its available to them. I see the inventory that gets through to individual traders with II shrinking fast in the already limited prime times.


----------



## David10225

dougp26364 said:


> I would suspect that if you check into that a little further, you'll find that's 2,650 points per person based on double occupancy. So the total number of points may very well be 5,300 points.



You might be right, but the Marriott website says..

*Prices are per available outside cabin for two adults, double occupancy. 
Owner is responsible for paying port fees and taxes seperately.


----------



## wsrobinson

Does "If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." mean that the Silver BB Oceanside week I bought last night on eBay for $1.25 is eligible???  Or will they simply execute ROFR??


----------



## l2trade

I believe the new Marriott system will make my II exchange upgrade strategies more difficult, but not impossible.  I do not like these changes.  All I can do is work harder to get the best exchanges or vote with my dollars.  I was leaning strongly towards purchasing a Marriott resale.  Now, I will wait and feel no rush whatsoever.  When II becomes more trouble than it is worth, I will cancel my membership.  

At least Marriott gave me a Father's Day I will never forget!


----------



## Stefa

timeos2 said:


> Marriott has a published chart of points values for weeks to be used from II. So if an owner deposits week X and it is worth Y points all Marriott Points has to do is say to II "Use "Y" points from our massive deposit of YYYYY points to take that week reservation. Done. Week gone. They used their priority in advance of the Marriott owner priority to grab the use time.
> 
> Since the agreement is in place and the values known there is nothing wrong with the move. They are simply using the system to claim a week from II for the value stated. Now it is in the Marriott Points system inventory - not II anymore - and Marriott Points members can utilize it while the week for week II trader has to keep waiting for a deposit that doesn't get claimed by Marriott Points as a trade.
> 
> Especially for the prime demand times there is no reason for Marriott to wait for a points member to actually request the week as they have the needed points banked and it will almost certainly be claimed by ponts members if its available to them. I see the inventory that gets through to individual traders with II shrinking fast in the already limited prime times.



Thanks for the clarification.   Since I tend to travel in the off season, I am hopeful of still getting decent trades through II.


----------



## ada903

Can someone please copy-paste the table with points value assigned to each week?  I don't own Marriott so I can't log into the Marriott website to see the value of the weeks, but I am very curious to see it, since I have been looking into a resale purchase lately.  Thanks.


----------



## LAX Mom

I'm not impressed with Marriott's new point system and won't convert. However, this new program seems much too complicated to sell to Mr & Mrs Tourist at a timeshare presentation while they are on vacation. How can Marriott possibly explain all of this info in a 90 minute presentation?

What happens if you purchase from Marriott and want to sell your points in the future? Can a resale buyer of points participate in the new system or are they back to a weeks system? 

I would never purchase something from Marriott that couldn't be sold on the resale market when I decided to sell.


----------



## pharmgirl

won 't send any more money to marriott, we'll keep our weeks, if we trade in II there are plenty ot nice resorts w/o Marriott
we have also made direct trades with other Marriott owners that worked very nicely for all  Will do that again if we really want other marriott resorts
We also own Starwood (Westin Maui) and don't rely on the SVN, seems too difficult and chancy , give up your week and HOPE you make a trade at 8 months out and that is lower on the "view" scale when you do get there
NO THANKS


----------



## Stefa

ada903 said:


> Can someone please copy-paste the table with points value assigned to each week?  I don't own Marriott so I can't log into the Marriott website to see the value of the weeks, but I am very curious to see it, since I have been looking into a resale purchase lately.  Thanks.



I may be wrong (I'm still pretty confused) but it sounds like resale purchases that haven't already closed won't be able to join the new system.


----------



## Brenda

ral said:


> I'm not quite sure if we can yet say that Marriott used the actual deeded week to determine the point value of your unit. We need to find out if all other Platinum Grande Vista weeks (I assume it was a 2 bedroom unit) were assigned 2775 points. If so, then it doesn't matter which week you were deeded within the Platinum season.
> 
> In my case, I would like to find out if any Platinum 3 bedroom units at Grand Chateau were assigned a value other than 4625 points. Any Platinum 3 bedroom villa Grand Chateau owners out there?


I own at Grand Chateau 3 Bd Platinum. I also received 4625 points for my week. Marriott did not use what week you were assigned for your point values. I also own at Kauai beach Club 1 Bd OF. My assigned week there is week 51 - Christmas week. However, I did not get the point value of Week 51 1 Bd OF which is 4075 points. I will get 2775 points for KBC, which is close to the week value of the lowest week.


----------



## tombo

LAX Mom said:


> I would never purchase something from Marriott that couldn't be sold on the resale market when I decided to sell.



Unfortunatelly with the advent of the new Points Program, there is a very good chance that we already did.


----------



## wsrobinson

Stefa said:


> I may be wrong (I'm still pretty confused) but it sounds like resale purchases that haven't already closed won't be able to join the new system.



I get that as well but being that the closing process takes 60 days or so what will they be doing with all the weeks purchased in the last 2 months?  Have these people bought into the points program?  i would say "NO".  Therefore, I am confused about "closed".


----------



## bw3

*value of points given vs required*



wsrobinson said:


> This isn't true in all cases.  My SurfWatch week is valued at 5750 points which is more than enough (4500) to stay for 7 days at SurfWatch in platinum season.



So the program would benefit you under these circumstances.  It would not work for Grande Ocean.  Marriott will offer 4,200 for platinum but charge 4,500 to reserve it.  They give 3,325 for gold but ask 3,450 to reserve it.  Oh and by the way, 3 of the gold weeks I have reserved for 2011 would require 4,500 as if they were platinum.  Also, Frenchmans Cove 3br plat will get me 5,025 points but I would need 5,675 to reserve it.  No thanks!  Bob


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930089&postcount=8



Well at least 2 NCV Platinum (6950) qualifies for premier (6500 points)...

I still don't see a reason to convert...


----------



## wsrobinson

bw3 said:


> So the program would benefit you under these circumstances.  It would not work for Grande Ocean.  Marriott will offer 4,200 for platinum but charge 4,500 to reserve it.  They give 3,325 for gold but ask 3,450 to reserve it.  Oh and by the way, 3 of the gold weeks I have reserved for 2011 would require 4,500 as if they were platinum.  Also, Frenchmans Cove 3br plat will get me 5,025 points but I would need 5,675 to reserve it.  No thanks!  Bob



GO is only 4200 for a platinum week?  It seems like it would be exactly what SurfWatch is for platinum season.


----------



## DanCali

l2trade said:


> In both systems, the developer and II are balancing the inventory books in the back end.  Starwood showed owners what they were really up to.  Marriott learned from Starwood owner outrage and lawsuit threats.  Marriott and II are cleverly masking what they agreed to.  Once II has usage rights from an owner (i.e. - deposit or exchange completed), I believe they have the *legal* right to negotiate/exchange/balance out those weeks with alternate inventory from the affiliate developer.  Marriott and II devised an approach which I think does the same thing as Starwood, yet adds enough levels of abstraction from individual accounts that the threat of a lawsuit is significantly diminished and would be so much harder to investigate, prove and quantify damages.  Starwood could learn a thing or two from it's more sophisticated and marketing savvy rival.



Can't one circumvent Marriott's approach with Request First?


----------



## Stefa

wsrobinson said:


> I get that as well but being that the closing process takes 60 days or so what will they be doing with all the weeks purchased in the last 2 months?  Have these people bought into the points program?  i would say "NO".  Therefore, I am confused about "closed".



I would think "closed" meant the deed had been recorded.  Until that time, the buyer is not the legal owner.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

wsrobinson said:


> Does "If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." mean that the Silver BB Oceanside week I bought last night on eBay for $1.25 is eligible???  Or will they simply execute ROFR??



.


It does if you can close before midnight tonight, however it usually takes a few weeks to get it thru ROFR, so I doubt you'll be closing in time


.


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> Does "If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." mean that the Silver BB Oceanside week I bought last night on eBay for $1.25 is eligible???  Or will they simply execute ROFR??



"Closed" probably means registered at county. If anyone bought in the last 4-6 weeks the likely won't qualify.


----------



## winger

abdibile said:


> We have to take into account that internal points excahnges and points excahnges through Interval do not have to pay an exchange fee for each excahnge, this is all covered in the Club Fees. For multiple weeks owners this saving adds up.
> 
> In addition you are much *more flexible with points*, being able to book different check in days and lengths of stays.
> 
> Let's be fair and not just compare Sat-Sat weeks to the old weesk system.


 Well, in all fairness, anytime "flexibility" is built into anything in life, there is a premium cost to enjoying the benefits of having the *flexibility*.  So far reading into this, the new Program is no different.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Pox, Shux -- Mox Nix.*




timeos2 said:


> A pox on them as Alan would say.


I usually just say _Shux Upon'm.  _

But the sentiment is consistent -- no sense quibbling over terminology. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## DanCali

LAX Mom said:


> I'm not impressed with Marriott's new point system and won't convert. However, this new program seems much too complicated to sell to Mr & Mrs Tourist at a timeshare presentation while they are on vacation. How can Marriott possibly explain all of this info in a 90 minute presentation?
> 
> What happens if you purchase from Marriott and want to sell your points in the future? Can a resale buyer of points participate in the new system or are they back to a weeks system?
> 
> I would never purchase something from Marriott that couldn't be sold on the resale market when I decided to sell.



Fortunately for Marriott, Mr. & Mrs. tourist don't know about the resale market... it worked so far with most of the 400,000 owners who didn't know they could buy (almost) the same thing for much less..


----------



## dougp26364

wsrobinson said:


> Does "If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." mean that the Silver BB Oceanside week I bought last night on eBay for $1.25 is eligible???  Or will they simply execute ROFR??



If you agreed to the purchase last night then the deal hasn't closed as of yet. So no, that week shouldn't be eligible. Agreeing to the sale by winning the auction isn't the same as closing on the deal.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> Can't one circumvent Marriott's approach with Request First?



That's what I'm thinking and, since we're happy to use our owned weeks, that's the way we'll probably exchange from here on out.


----------



## wsrobinson

dougp26364 said:


> If you agreed to the purchase last night then the deal hasn't closed as of yet. So no, that week shouldn't be eligible. Agreeing to the sale by winning the auction isn't the same as closing on the deal.



I agree completely with you but is Marriott really not going to allow all recent sales (the last 2-3 mos) into the program?  Really???  Even direct sales in the last 2-3 months?  That doesn't sound right.  Especially if some of these owners "want" to be part of the new system.


----------



## rsackett

Manor Club Plat = 2375
Harbour Pointe week 32 = 1150

If I read post #76 correctly it would now take BOTH of my Marriott equivilant Pat weeks to exchange for ONE two bedroom AVERAGE TDI two bedroom in II using points!

$1995 to convert, makes my choice easy.

Ray

P.S. -  If II can ot get me the kind of exchanges I am used to with my Marriotts, I will try other exchange companys, and direct exchanges.


----------



## windje2000

*Probably late to the game, but here are my intitial thoughts*

New Marriott system

The major component 

•	Your week is worth x points when you contribute it to the ‘trust.’

•	Your week is worth y points when you want to purchase from the ‘trust.’

•	Marriott gets to keep the difference between x and y and monetize it.

Example:

Marriott Grande Vista 3BR Platinum week.

When I contribute it to the trust, I receive 3,700 points.

When someone wants that week, it costs them 4,500 points.

The benefit to Marriott – the cash they can get when they sell the ‘bid-ask’ spread.


Marriott appears to have created a “points security” with a bid-ask spread .  .  . determined by Marriott.  [Wonder why it can’t be marketed to NY residents?  Securities laws?]


Another striking component

The “points security” the want you to trade your deeded week for has a one year life.  After one year – worthless; you forfeit the points - no exchange for you. 

Guess who benefits.  Marriott.

Moreover, the one year ‘life’ of Marriott points effectively eliminates the ability to trade ‘up’ as you can never get enough points in one year to do so.  I guess they will want cash on top of points.


Compare and contrast

Note this is very different from the II system that currently exists.    

Relative value is determined by ‘trading power.” 

One week goes in one week comes out.  This is a zero sum game.  

Not so the new Marriott system.  Marriott has built a system with a bid ask spread, and aims to keep the spread for itself.


Am I a current owners damaged by this?

When I bought a Marriott timeshare, I purchased a bundle of rights. One of those was the deeded week.  

To induce me to purchase that deeded week, there was an intangible asset associated with it - the ability to participate in a barter system created for the exchange of weeks.  This intangible asset was decidedly attractive as few will want to stay exclusively in the resort they purchased.

Now, Marriott has negatively affected the ability to trade for other locations, notwithstanding that the program is voluntary and will run parallel to the existing II system.  (That’s like saying the produce selection at the existing farmers market won’t be affected by establishing a competing farmers market across the street, assuming the farmers can’t be in two places at once.)  

THE EXISTING BARTER SYSTEM AT II CAN ONLY BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY THE NEW PROGRAM.

The intangible asset associated with the barter system of the bundle of rights I purchased has been changed.  


Marriott appears to believe it has the right (and may have as a matter of law) to change the system to essentially ‘skim’ a ‘bid-ask’ spread having a size of its choosing from the exchange process.  

One element of the direct damages to existing owners (as a group) can readily be measured by the number of points (and cash, if the collect cash in lieu of points to trade up) associated with their participation.  Every point or dollar from existing owners deeded weeks that accrue to the benefit of Marriott comes out of the hide of the existing owners.  

Its still a zero sum game; Marriott has decided to big foot its way into skimming some of the value of your interest.  


The consequential damages are less easily measured.  

An argument could be made that the value of all deeded weeks has been negatively affected.

There is now more uncertainty (and more risk) associated with owning a Marriott timeshare.



Marriott’s reputation for treating owners equitably has been shattered.  

Who sets the bid-ask spread?  Marriott.  Who benefits from the bid ask spread?  Marriott.  Does that sound like a conflict?  

And what’s the relationship between II and Marriott going to be?  Will II inventory be sucked into the Marriott system.

Maybe its time for the 500,000+ existing Marriott owners to set up their own exchange system.

Go to the sales presentations.  Take their money.  And tell them how you feel.


----------



## oceanpointeman

I just got off the phone with a Marriott rep. This is what he told me:

1. The minimum points you can purchase is 1,000. Thereafter you can purchase in 250 increments (i.e. 1000, 1250, 1500, etc.).

2. Each point cost $9.20.  

3. A 1,000 points will result in roughly $400 in maintenance fees per year. 

4. I own a 3-bdr Ocean Pointe gold season and it's point value is 3725. But if I want to use points to get that same unit it will cost me 4,000 points  . Un-freakin-believable.

I am not happy about this new points system and I will not be joining.


----------



## bw3

*Grande Ocean points*

Yes, 4,200 points for Grande Ocean platinum oceanside.  I am not sure what oceanfront would get you.  They only showed the points values for what we own.  Bob


----------



## chriskre

Is there any mention of a decrease in points required in the 30 day window or some type of cash rates like HGVC open season?  

Are they planning on offering an option to sell you the points you are short like Disney is now doing to complete a reservation since they've magically reduced what you have to complete a reservation?  :annoyed: 

I can't see Marriott not allowing future resale buyers in their new club.  Unless they are planning to snap up all the $1.00 deals that will be available, if they don't let others into their club at a reasonable rate like HGVC's $695 rate then how else will they get inventory for their points club?  Sounds to me like they are just putting a deadline in place like our government did with the first time home buyers, trying to stimulate their economy and then they'll extend the deadline.   

I've been on the fence with purchasing Marriott because of all this and am glad I waited.  I guess when the dust settles we'll see if my decision was correct or not.


----------



## wsrobinson

bw3 said:


> Yes, 4,200 points for Grande Ocean platinum oceanside.  I am not sure what oceanfront would get you.  They only showed the points values for what we own.  Bob



Bob,

Did you buy direct or resale?


----------



## dougp26364

wsrobinson said:


> I agree completely with you but is Marriott really not going to allow all recent sales (the last 2-3 mos) into the program?  Really???  Even direct sales in the last 2-3 months?  That doesn't sound right.  Especially if some of these owners "want" to be part of the new system.



I'm sure that there will eventually be a path into the new system......for a price. After all the new system allows Marriott to steal points by giving owners less than it takes to reserve their own unit at their home resort. Call it the Wonderful Wizzarding World of Marriott and the Disappearing Points. I never thought I'd ever see Marriott so blatently ripping owners off right in front of our faces. It's amazing the arogance I'm seeing with this new system. Shame on me for ever thinking that Marriott was a stand up organization built on intergity.

Fortunately, this if voluntary. You have to give them the right to steal value from you. Not only do you have to opt in but, you have to pay to opt in. I'm glad I can keep my weeks just as they are and continue to exchange for what I want though either Interval, SFX or any other independant exchange company.


----------



## dougp26364

oceanpointeman said:


> I just got off the phone with a Marriott rep. This is what he told me:
> 
> 1. The minimum points you can purchase is 1,000. Thereafter you can purchase in 250 increments (i.e. 1000, 1250, 1500, etc.).
> 
> 2. Each point cost $9.20.
> 
> 3. A 1,000 points will result in roughly $400 in maintenance fees per year.
> 
> 4. I own a 3-bdr Ocean Pointe gold season and it's point value is 3725. But if I want to use points to get that same unit it will cost me 4,000 points  . Un-freakin-believable.
> 
> I am not happy about this new points system and I will not be joining.



That means that 5,000 points will cost $46,000. :hysterical:  Is it any wonder that (at least according to Fletch as I understand it) some of their top salesmen have left the company?


----------



## ada903

So it will cost $36,800 to buy 4,000 points, and $1,600 annual maintenance fee?  And most high season weeks at good resorts will cost 4,000-6,000 points? Ouch.




oceanpointeman said:


> I just got off the phone with a Marriott rep. This is what he told me:
> 
> 1. The minimum points you can purchase is 1,000. Thereafter you can purchase in 250 increments (i.e. 1000, 1250, 1500, etc.).
> 
> 2. Each point cost $9.20.
> 
> 3. A 1,000 points will result in roughly $400 in maintenance fees per year.
> 
> 4. I own a 3-bdr Ocean Pointe gold season and it's point value is 3725. But if I want to use points to get that same unit it will cost me 4,000 points  . Un-freakin-believable.
> 
> I am not happy about this new points system and I will not be joining.


----------



## gmarine

Marriott sure is looking out for its owners. If you paid the vastly overpriced developer price, even very recently, they hose you for another $600. If you decided to save some $$ and buy resale, they hose you even more. 

Now its going to be interesting to watch the effect on resale prices.

I would love to see this thing fail miserably.


----------



## SueDonJ

- They're still having problems with some computers accessing that "Enroll Now" link so I called in to get my points info and ask some questions.  We're still not completely convinced and will take some time to think it over, but more and more this is looking like what I hoped it would be - an overlay system for exchanges that offers much more flexible usage opportunities and is very similar to DVC's system.  And honestly, I'm a little bit surprised at the costs - a one-time reasonable fee (IMO, for direct purchases) for life of the ownership as opposed to the very high fee for three years mentioned in that survey?  Annual Club Dues of $199 to cover all transactions?  Not bad at all, even considering that Club Dues will probably increase at a similar rate to m/f.

- The way I figure, whatever impact the system has on inventory overall will occur regardless of whether we join or not, so I'm not worrying about whether or not points owners will have access to my home resort at the same time I do - they will, and there's nothing I can do it about.

- The rep said that if you convert you'll be given a new II member number and will have the same access to Getaways inventory.  I didn't ask any other specific questions about II, but what I'm reading leads me to believe that Marriott will begin a similar deposit system to Starwood's.  Definitely the inventory advantage goes to Points for Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.

- The telephone rep said our ownership works out to:
Barony 2BR Gold OF, 3,725 points (4,000 highest exchange in season)
SW 3BR Gold OV, 4,625 (4,950 highest exchange in season)
SW 3BR Plat OS, 5,000 (6,175 highest exchange in season)
(Of course I will get this verified through a working link or in writing before I rely on it.  For now it's the basis for my thinking.)

As expected from the other posts here, it's impossible to equitably exchange back into my home resort in season.  But with the 13-month booking advantage as Premier Plus our home resort usage should be as minimally impacted as possible.  Our weeks seem to have some pretty good value for exchanging to other Marriotts, but as I expected, some resorts that we could have possibly gotten in II's system will now be a pipe dream.  (As they will be if we don't convert, if the impact on inventory is what I think it will be.)  I LOVE the features of being able to combine points for those pipe dreams, being able to bank and borrow, and being able to book stays of more or less than seven days.

- M/F don't become attached to Points value upon conversion but instead remain with Weeks.  Of course some costs, such as the increased housekeeping mentioned already, will be impacted by the new system.  And the m/f attached to Points purchases in the future will be structured differently.

- Points inflation is occurring for established higher-priced resorts, I have no doubt it will continue to happen as new resorts are rolled out.

- Weeks purchased on the external resale market after 6/20/10 will not be eligible, and as speculated this will impact the resale value of all weeks.  That's a concern but it's not something that surprises me.  Some of us have been saying all along that Marriott's history of not protecting resale value on the external market should have been a warning sign.  And again, it's going to happen whether or not every existing owner converts, so I'm not going to worry about it.  It appears resales-by-Marriott will continue to be treated exactly the same as every other direct purchase.

- Point requirements on the usage charts can and probably will re-allocate across the calendars.  I thought I saw something in a link somewhere that said a 10% limit annually but now can't find it.  IF that's relevant here I think that's a high percentage amount - I want to know more about this.

So far, advantage Points over Weeks for the way we use, and want to use, what we own.  I'm a little bit more than cautiously optimistic.


----------



## NJDave

ada903 said:


> So it will cost $36,800 to buy 4,000 points, and $1,600 annual maintenance fee?  And most high season weeks at good resorts will cost 4,000-6,000 points? Ouch.




It would cost over $3,000 a year to use the unit (assuming a 4% interest rate on a $36,800 purchase plus the $1,600 in maintenace fees and $169 Marriott fees).  A 4,000 point unit can likely be rented cheaper and you would not have the commitment and risks and would have more flexibility.

I see why Marriott is losing their best salespeople.  We should have all recognized it was coming by the departures.


----------



## WelcomeHome

*Talk about Burning Bridges*

I'm sorry to say, this new system sounds like a giant rip-off to me.

I'm a very positive person (I even defended Marriott on this thread and said Marriott built their reputation on customer satisfaction and would never screw their customer base because that would be suicidal) - well I guess I was wrong because this new program has NOTHING to do with satisfying customers -this is all about excessive GREED from Marriott's obviously pathetic & misguided marketing team to create excessive profit.

The only thing I can say is that in the end Marriott will be the one to pay for this - with a ruined reputation and a lame new marketing scheme that I suspect will fall flat on it's face. I find it insulting that Marriott has the nerve to even present this new program which is so obviosuly one-sided in their favor - how stupid do they think people are?

I'm all for Mariott enhancing profits by continuing to provide a quality product which offers genuine value to it's valued customers - but this is the opposite - this is a case of blind greed - and Marriott will get what they deserve!

Good Luck Marriott - you're gonna need it,
David


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> -.  But with the 14-month booking advantage as Premier Plus our home resort usage should be as minimally impacted as possible.




I thought premiere plus was 13 month advance booking, where do you get the 14 month?


----------



## mjbaran

Plain and simple example why this is not a good deal for ME.

I own 2 weeks at MCV (one plat, one gold; 2bdr with lockoff) total points value 4775.

In 2010 I have gone or planned one week each at MCV, MDS, MSE, and MSF. All utilizing my 2 MCV weeks.

Based on actual dates and room size this would cost me 7749 points under the new system.

Case closed, forget the points system.


----------



## wsrobinson

SueDonJ said:


> - The telephone rep said our ownership works out to:
> Barony Gold OF, 3,725 points (4,000 highest exchange in season)
> SW Gold OV, 4,625 (4,950 highest exchange in season)
> *SW Plat OS, 5,000 (6,175 highest exchange in season)*(Of course I will get this verified through a working link or in writing before I rely on it.  For now it's the basis for my thinking.)



The link just worked for me.  Interesting that the link gives me a value of 5750 for SW Plat OS 2 BR.  BTW 6175 is the point value for a 3 BR Plat OS week.  5000 is the point value for a 2 BR Plat OS week.


----------



## bogey21

windje2000 said:


> Marriott’s reputation for treating owners equitably has been shattered.



As I have said many times before, this reputation is undeserved.  Just harken back to when they changed the Rental and Sales Programs to the big time detriment of their owners?

At the time I said  "Sell.  You can't trust Marriott".  Fortunately I followed my own advice.

George


----------



## rthib

*Resale Market*

So if you have no interest in trading, shouldn't this provide opportunities to buy cheaply at resorts that you want to stay?


----------



## scrapngen

abdibile said:


> Perhaps in the long run overall availability (especially for classic weeks owners) of high demand weeks even improves?
> 
> In the old system evryone was jumping on the best weeks in their season as soon as possible (12 or 13 months out).
> 
> For points owners peak weeks are relly expansive and lots of them probably decide to prefer two off-season weeks over one peak season week and there are more peak season weeks available to other owners.



IMO - those high demand weeks will now go exclusively to the PremierPlus Points people who have over 12000 points and can get anything they want in any number of days at 13 months out if it's available and can also put a request in for same. Therefore, they will always be first in the system for prime or any other weeks. The minute a prime week gets deposited into points, it will never be seen, but allocated straight to those requests. And if the requests are for partial weeks those prime days become swiss cheese and again only those high power people can rent indiv. days at 13 months out.


----------



## ondeadlin

The brilliant part about it (from a corporately evil definition of brilliant) is that if you regularly trade your week with II, you're essentially enrolled in the system whether you like it or not.

Marriott can pluck your week for the points system any time you deposit it.

BUT unless you pay to join, you can't have access to those weeks Marriott plucks. 

It's everything for them, nothing for you, unless you join and give them your week (for less value than they're charging others for it points-wise, of course).  II will quickly be filled with only the least desirable weeks. It's a huge issue for II, considering they're already vastly weakened from the DVC and SVN moves.

This is a particularly bad situation for owners at Frenchman's Cove, St. Kitt's, the Euro timeshares and Thailand owners. They're not allowed to join the new system, so they'll be stuck in the old system with vastly inferior inventory. And yet it appears Marriott will still be plucking the weeks the deposit.


----------



## heathpack

*Wow, I am impressed...*

... that Marriott seemed to make this points system bad for almost everyone.  I would have thought they would have tried to make this an improvement for at least a substantial percentage of owners, who they could then count on going out and touting the marvelousness of this new system.  But amazingly, it seems like most owners are negatively affected.

You have to believe points required to stay over time will slowly escalate.  And given the precedent the Marriott has already set of points allocated to the owner being less than points required to book the same reservation, I would bet that the cost to book a reservation escalates faster than the points you receive for a deposit.  Which means that over time, owners will have to buy points from Marriott if they want to use anything other than their deeded week.  Which is probably Marriott's ultimate goal.

_And_ it does not seem those points will have any intrinsic value.  If you try to sell them the new owner will need to pay $2000 to join the system (or is that just resale weeks owners)???  If I understand this correctly, then there will essentially be no resale value for these points.

How in the heck will they sell this?  I guess they will count on people not fully realizing all the nuances at first.  But if this new system requires that an owner peiodically infuse more cash to be able to get a decent reservation- well, it seems that Marriott will have a lot of disgruntled owners and eventually lose the excellent reputation they currently enjoy.  What a shame.

I can only hope this thing will be an utter flop- if it succeeds in any way, I'll bet Hyatt will try something similar.

This seems so bad to me that I wonder if I am really understanding it all correctly.

H


----------



## PerryM

*Rest for 3 months...*



David10225 said:


> Since this is Father's day..I'm allowing myself extra time on the computer this AM instead of lawn work as I should be doing
> 
> Let me say two things and I'll get off and let others have a chance...
> *
> 1.  I'm am so waiting to hear from PerryM!  *
> 
> 2.  I sold my Disney points to buy the Marriott at HHI.  I got tired of trying to get in every summer and having no availability (except for those expensive Friday and Saturday nights).  So while I still can go to HHI every summer if I choose, my ability to try different Marriott resorts seems to be diminished now unless I join this club..



Some of you will be dancing in the streets - I will NOT be commenting on the new Marriott system for the next 3 months here!

I know, I know, it's not Christmas yet but take it in the spirit it's given.

I am under contract to hold weekly Webinars on this topic for the next 3 months with an extension if things go right/wrong.  (And of course it's not with Marriott)

These are FREE, with absolutely no obligation to buy squat.  They are scheduled for Thursday nights at 8 PM CST; we'll see how it goes.  If there's no interest, I'll be back...

If you are interested for either information or for entertainment purposes send an eMail to me at *PerryM@Yahoo.com* with the subject *Marriott Webinar*.  I'll sign you up.

So it's "arriva-derchy, goodbye on this one topic for the next 3 months until my contract is up.  If you have any burning questions just PM but I can NOT comment on this one topic for the next 3 months.

Have fun guys, I know I plan to...


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> I thought premiere plus was 13 month advance booking, where do you get the 14 month?



Oh, sorry, typo.  I'll change it.  Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## banquopack

*no transfer*



laurac260 said:


> I would guess the answer to that would be the same as before this program rolled out, which would be an emphatic NO!  The previous points program did not transfer.  Why would they transfer this one?
> 
> Seems to me they single handedly killed off both the resale market (or atleast tried to), and perhaps Redweek, et al. rentals as well????



From their fine print...

Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.

So it doesn't transfer, and there's going to be a pretty good fee I'm sure to get into the point program from a resale unit.  Haven't made it through all the pages yet, ignore if you've already seen this


----------



## caterina25

My Aruba Surf Club oceanside 2 bedroom L/O platinum float is worth 4,075 MVCD points,according to the help line


----------



## floyddl

hipslo said:


> While I suppose this won't matter if weeks and points inventory are truly kept separate (unless allocation of reservations between the two pools is purely "first come first serve" as between points and weeks), but I have been playing around with a new calendar on the mvci website that tells you the first date on which you can call in to reserve under points if you qualify as premiere or premiere plus, at 13 months in advance, and, lo and behold, points owners get a couple of days jump on weeks owners in terms of the first date to call in.



The part that seems most unfair is it appears that a non-owner at a resort can book into another property at 13 months.  In the Hilton system owners can book into their home resort for 3 months before a non-owner has an opportunity to book into it.

Where is the value of owning at any particular resort in this Marriott points system?


----------



## floyddl

NJDave said:


> The issue is that it may become more difficult to reserve the week you want where you own since you will be competing with points owner too.
> 
> In addition, Marriott can choose not to deposit "point weeks" in Interval and rent them instead.
> 
> The concern is that over time, it will be more difficult to book a prime week where you own and there will be less inventory available in Interval.



Exactly, that is why I like the Hilton program better.  Owners get 3 months to book their home resort before non-owners get a chance.


----------



## heatherw

I have been reading all the posts with interest despite the fact that all my resorts are excluded from the new system, which seems odd as there will now be so few that are not in the scheme. This will not usually be a problem as we tend to go to them but I was hoping to get to the US next year and if II has a much lesser number to exchange to it may reduce our chances. 

If anyone gets any further info that they can share on whether this is just a phasing in or is it the plan to remain separate I would welcome it.

Heather


----------



## SueDonJ

wsrobinson said:


> The link just worked for me.  Interesting that the link gives me a value of 5750 for SW Plat OS 2 BR.  BTW 6175 is the point value for a 3 BR Plat OS week.  5000 is the point value for a 2 BR Plat OS week.



Thanks, still not working for me.  Maybe I'm just a moron.  :hysterical: 

Geeeze, for the first Sunday in months the family is getting together at one of my sister's houses instead of here and I have to leave.  Marriott's timing stinks!  I'll be back to this later ...


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Some of you will be dancing in the streets - I will NOT be commenting on the new Marriott system for the next 3 months here!
> 
> I know, I know, it's not Christmas yet but take it in the spirit it's given.
> 
> I am under contract to hold weekly Webinars on this topic for the next 3 months with an extension if things go right/wrong.  (And of course it's not with Marriott)
> 
> These are FREE, with absolutely no obligation to buy squat.  They are scheduled for Thursday nights at 8 PM CST; we'll see how it goes.  If there's no interest, I'll be back...
> 
> If you are interested for either information or for entertainment purposes send an eMail to me at *PerryM@Yahoo.com* with the subject *Marriott Webinar*.  I'll sign you up.
> 
> So it's "arriva-derchy, goodbye on this one topic for the next 3 months until my contract is up.  If you have any burning questions just PM but I can NOT comment on this one topic for the next 3 months.
> 
> Have fun guys, I know I plan to...



Perry, I might be interested if you will have access to official Marriott info, as well as sanctions from Marriott to disseminate whatever info you'll be offering AND a guarantee that what you're offering can be considered official.  ???  But if not, won't your webinar info be worth as much as every other bit of unofficial info?


----------



## DanCali

windje2000 said:


> New Marriott system
> 
> The major component
> 
> •	Your week is worth x points when you contribute it to the ‘trust.’
> 
> •	Your week is worth y points when you want to purchase from the ‘trust.’
> 
> •	Marriott gets to keep the difference between x and y and monetize it.
> 
> Example:
> 
> Marriott Grande Vista 3BR Platinum week.
> 
> When I contribute it to the trust, I receive 3,700 points.
> 
> When someone wants that week, it costs them 4,500 points.
> 
> The benefit to Marriott – the cash they can get when they sell the ‘bid-ask’ spread.
> 
> 
> Marriott appears to have created a “points security” with a bid-ask spread .  .  . determined by Marriott.  [Wonder why it can’t be marketed to NY residents?  Securities laws?]
> 
> 
> Another striking component
> 
> The “points security” the want you to trade your deeded week for has a one year life.  After one year – worthless; you forfeit the points - no exchange for you.
> 
> Guess who benefits.  Marriott.
> 
> Moreover, the one year ‘life’ of Marriott points effectively eliminates the ability to trade ‘up’ as you can never get enough points in one year to do so.  I guess they will want cash on top of points.
> 
> 
> Compare and contrast
> 
> Note this is very different from the II system that currently exists.
> 
> Relative value is determined by ‘trading power.”
> 
> One week goes in one week comes out.  This is a zero sum game.
> 
> Not so the new Marriott system.  Marriott has built a system with a bid ask spread, and aims to keep the spread for itself.
> 
> 
> Am I a current owners damaged by this?
> 
> When I bought a Marriott timeshare, I purchased a bundle of rights. One of those was the deeded week.
> 
> To induce me to purchase that deeded week, there was an intangible asset associated with it - the ability to participate in a barter system created for the exchange of weeks.  This intangible asset was decidedly attractive as few will want to stay exclusively in the resort they purchased.
> 
> Now, Marriott has negatively affected the ability to trade for other locations, notwithstanding that the program is voluntary and will run parallel to the existing II system.  (That’s like saying the produce selection at the existing farmers market won’t be affected by establishing a competing farmers market across the street, assuming the farmers can’t be in two places at once.)
> 
> THE EXISTING BARTER SYSTEM AT II CAN ONLY BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY THE NEW PROGRAM.
> 
> The intangible asset associated with the barter system of the bundle of rights I purchased has been changed.
> 
> 
> Marriott appears to believe it has the right (and may have as a matter of law) to change the system to essentially ‘skim’ a ‘bid-ask’ spread having a size of its choosing from the exchange process.
> 
> One element of the direct damages to existing owners (as a group) can readily be measured by the number of points (and cash, if the collect cash in lieu of points to trade up) associated with their participation.  Every point or dollar from existing owners deeded weeks that accrue to the benefit of Marriott comes out of the hide of the existing owners.
> 
> Its still a zero sum game; Marriott has decided to big foot its way into skimming some of the value of your interest.
> 
> 
> The consequential damages are less easily measured.
> 
> An argument could be made that the value of all deeded weeks has been negatively affected.
> 
> There is now more uncertainty (and more risk) associated with owning a Marriott timeshare.
> 
> 
> 
> Marriott’s reputation for treating owners equitably has been shattered.
> 
> Who sets the bid-ask spread?  Marriott.  Who benefits from the bid ask spread?  Marriott.  Does that sound like a conflict?
> 
> And what’s the relationship between II and Marriott going to be?  Will II inventory be sucked into the Marriott system.
> 
> Maybe its time for the 500,000+ existing Marriott owners to set up their own exchange system.
> 
> Go to the sales presentations.  Take their money.  And tell them how you feel.



Excellent post!


----------



## dougp26364

As is my hisorty, I never toss the baby out with the bath water. I always look at past history and compare what I've done with my weeks account, then compare what I could have done if points had been available. Here's my personal results.

*Ocean Pointe 3 bedroom silver season: 4,225 points*

We use the master suite and typically trade the studio. We've recieved at a minimum 1 bedroom exchanges and once a 2 bedroom exchange. All have been for Willow Ridge in Branson with the exception of Mountain Valley Lodge next week. 

This was an easy calculation. We would recieve 4,225 points for our 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit. To researve the Nov. or Dec. weeks we've always used, it would take 5,225 points. We'd be short 1,000 points to reserve a smaller unit that we own. Needless to say, NONE of the exchanges we've made with our studio unit would be possible. 

*Grand Chateau 3 bedroom platinum season 4,625 points:*

We've only owned for a couple of years. We've traded the Master Suite 2 bedroom portion for Waihoai 2 bedroom in March (5,875 points) and a Harbor Club at Harbor Town 2 bedroom unit in May (1,725 points). Totaly points would have been 7,600 points. Under the new system we'd have been 2975 points shy for making these exchanges.

The year previous we exchanged for a 2 bedroom Newport Coast Villa's March week (2,900 points) and a 1 bedroom Custom House May week (2,900 points). Total points for both exchanges 5,800 points. Again a deficit. This time 1,175 points 

In short, the new system won't work for us in any way shape of form. Marriott gives to little for our weeks then charges to much in points for the exchanges. I have no intention of shelling out $695 to join a program that would provide historically less value than what I've recieved. I feel pretty safe in saying that we'll be sticking with the way things are with our ownership. To see a consitant deficit for every single year is both amazing and disheartening. I expected more from Marriott.


----------



## caterina25

californiagirl said:


> David or anyone else, can you find the link for point costs for the other collections?


I went on the MVC site and asked the online assistant


----------



## pwrshift

*Happy Father's Day*

You guys have been busy since midnight! I haven't had a chance to read all the previous posts, so sorry if this has been mentioned before. Also haven't read all the Marriott documentation, so I'm flying a little bit blind (it's Father's Day, what can I say).

Make a copy of your home resort(s) calendar on your owners page - _while it is still there._

*Compare your resort calendar to what Marriott is doing with this new plan of 'dates'.* 

For example, at _BeachPlace Towers_, the calendar shows Platinum floating weeks as 1-17, 22-34, and 51-52. That includes President's Week, March Break, Christmas and other prime times.

On the new program if you want to exchange into BeachPlace for a 2 bdrm President's Week it's 4,675 points ... yet other 'lower level' weeks in the former Platinum season are as low as 2,400 points. Marriott has decided the President's week is 94.79% more valuable than some other weeks in the old Platinum season! And this is for a week Marriott owners only get 3,225 points. 

*In other words, they've snuck in a new value system on weeks that were deeded as 'equal'.* 

We all need to read the fine print very closely before making a decision.

The only trading I do, really, is through II to upgrade from a studio to 1 or 2 bdrm and usually within the resorts I own. Joining the new system looks, at first blush, that this idea goes out the window. 

Example 1, I split my two BeachPlace weeks into Studio, 1 Bdrm, 1 Bdrm, Studio from Presidents Day week for 4 weeks in a row. Then I immediately ask II to find me a 1 or 2 bdrm for the weeks I've got studios booked directly. For 2011 they came through with 2 bdrm suites for my first and fourth weeks - netting me out with 3 bdrms for those weeks (which I'll either deposit or rent my studios as I don't need that much space). 

Example 2, I've also played the game of splitting my Manor Club Sequel MSE (lockoffs) into two parts and trade them back into original Manor Club MMC (non-lockoffs) for two bdrm suites -- never ever missed that and already got it for 2011. Looks like it won't be possible with the new plan *if* I join it.

Happy Father's Day  

Brian

_Also_ ... it appears if you own 3 weeks bought direct and 1 week resale, you may want to keep your resale week from Marriott due to the much higher price to put that week in the new program.

_Also Also_ ... has anyone seen a 'valuation' on a resale week bought after June 20? Apparently resale weeks bought before this date can join the program for a higher fee than direct purchases, but what about a week you buy today on Ebay?

_Also Also Also_ ... If you want to book 13 months ahead you have to use 2 of your weeks to get it. The new program requirement seems to be so high it will require more than 2 weeks to get that benefit.

The beat goes on...


----------



## David10225

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/2_resortCalendars.jsp 

to find out how many points to reserve at other resorts in 2010, 11 and 12


----------



## hipslo

scrapngen said:


> IMO - those high demand weeks will now go exclusively to the PremierPlus Points people who have over 12000 points and can get anything they want in any number of days at 13 months out if it's available and can also put a request in for same. Therefore, they will always be first in the system for prime or any other weeks.



Not only that, but points inventory is apparently released on Tuesdays, according to the new webiste, whereas weeks inventory is released on thurs or fri (first check in date), so points owners appear to get a jump on even multiple week owners reserving at 13 months out.


----------



## wsrobinson

pwrshift said:


> _Also Also_ ... has anyone seen a 'valuation' on a resale week bought after June 20? Apparently resale weeks bought before this date can join the program for a higher fee than direct purchases, but what about a week you buy today on Ebay?




I bought a BB Silver Oceanside week last night on eBay for $1.25 (One dollar no misplaced decimal point).  Can't get much lower than that!!


----------



## ondeadlin

What's interesting is that _*I don't think it matters to them one bit if current owners join*_. Why? Well ... First, if that current owner wants to trade, Marriott gets first dibs on that week anyway through II. Second, if the current owner has a weak week, they probably don't have much interest in it anyway.

They may actually view current owners as little more than a constituency that had to be accommodated so they can hopefully sell them more points, and otherwise incidental to the new system.

I have to grudgingly admit they've done a brilliant job of pushing back against those are are skilled in manipulating the current system.


----------



## qlaval

Points value for an ARUBA OCEAN CLUB Platinum 1 bedroom OV: 2,900pts...


----------



## hipslo

Just noticed a provision in the legal docs for the new program that are available on the new website that says that point levels needed to be premiere and premiere plus are subject to change and that status is not guaranteed after first year.


----------



## MRMarriott

*Point Discrepancy Concerns*

I wonder if someone could answer a question for me.

There seems to be a lot of concern about how much the week is worth and how much it will be to go to your home club. 

For example, my MountainSide week is 5,350 Plat but ranges from 4,450 to 6,900 in season... 

Still, I think we have to think about electing points as an _enhancement_. Points aren't for owners who just go to their home club every year - it's for owners who want to go for a few nights here and there or try the new Explorer program or want to pay less fees.

If you do want to go to your home club, owners have the best of both worlds. I can book the week the way I always have in the home club week pool - a pool that is separate from points exchangers. 

So... I'm getting 7 nights as a home club owner for less than someone trying to get the same week using points. And, if I do want to try other clubs or go for a couple of nights to Vegas or something like that, that's a new option which I never had before. 

I think it makes sense to see how many points you get and how many points your week is worth, but you would never use points to get 7 days back at your home resort. That's just not what they're for...


----------



## Pro

I went to church this morning and there were 6 pages in this thread.  I came home from church and there were 12 pages.     

Joe


----------



## tahoeJoe

*Points are Not always a good systems*



pwrshift said:


> On the new program if you want to exchange into BeachPlace for a 2 bdrm President's Week it's 4,675 points ... yet other 'lower level' weeks in the former Platinum season are as low as 2,400 points. Marriott has decided the President's week is 94.79% more valuable than some other weeks in the old Platinum season! And this is for a week Marriott owners only get 3,225 points.
> 
> *In other words, they've snuck in a new value system on weeks that were deeded as 'equal'.*
> 
> We all need to read the fine print very closely before making a decision.
> 
> The only trading I do, really, is through II to upgrade from a studio to 1 or 2 bdrm and usually within the resorts I own. Joining the new system looks, at first blush, that this idea goes out the window.



You are exactly right. The point system appears to only benefit Marriott and harms most existing owners. 

In addition to Marriott, i also own Hilton and Hyatt (both point based systems). Points do offer SOME flexibility but at a huge cost. For every Marriott owner who has traded a studio for a one bedroom, a one bedroom for a 2 bedroom, or a gold week for platinum week, THAT IS NOW GONE IN THE NEW SYSTEM. You only get what you paid for and in many cases not even that. 

IMHO, I don't this new system is a good deal for 75% of the existing owners. I think Marriott will create a lot of unhappy owners. 

-TJ


----------



## floyddl

MRMarriott said:


> I wonder if someone could answer a question for me.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of concern about how much the week is worth and how much it will be to go to your home club.
> 
> For example, my MountainSide week is 5,350 Plat but ranges from 4,450 to 6,900 in season...
> 
> Still, I think we have to think about electing points as an _enhancement_. Points aren't for owners who just go to their home club every year - it's for owners who want to go for a few nights here and there or try the new Explorer program or want to pay less fees.
> 
> If you do want to go to your home club, owners have the best of both worlds. I can book the week the way I always have in the home club week pool - a pool that is separate from points exchangers.
> 
> So... I'm getting 7 nights as a home club owner for less than someone trying to get the same week using points. And, if I do want to try other clubs or go for a couple of nights to Vegas or something like that, that's a new option which I never had before.
> 
> I think it makes sense to see how many points you get and how many points your week is worth, but you would never use points to get 7 days back at your home resort. That's just not what they're for...



A well designed program would give owners an opportunity to go to their owned property if they so desire but to trade into other properties after the owners of each property have had an opportunity to reserve their weeks.  IMO, this is not a well designed program.


----------



## Numismatist

My Frenchman's Cove shows 2,775 points and appears to allow me to enroll?


----------



## hipslo

pwrshift said:


> If you want to book 13 months ahead you have to use 2 of your weeks to get it. The new program requirement seems to be so high it will require more than 2 weeks to get that benefit.



that depends where you own.  its no longer a question of how many weeks you own, its now a question of how many points you have.

  on the flip side, seems like no "concurrent or consecutive" requirement in the new system , so long as you own enough points.

however, if the goal is to use points to reserve prime weeks at home resort, that will not work well in most cases since cost in points to stay at home resort during prime week exceeds points granted for owned week.  in my case, I own 4 weeks at mountainside and 1 week at fairway villas.  under the current point chart, points generated by all 5  of my weeks get me only 3 weeks and a couple of days at mountainside,  no thanks!

using weeks at 13 months, outside of points, to book home resort may be negatively impacted as well, depending on how inventory is allocated, as Premiere plus owners appear to get a jump on multiple week owners under 13 month booking window (even for fri, sat or sun check in days - to sday nothing of the ability of premiere plus owners to add a couple of days in front and check in on wed or thurs and get a jump that way). havent seen anything at all that would give guidance on the inventory allocation question. 

looks like worst of all worlds for those of us who own multiple platinum weeks at home resort for personal use - so the age old advice, buy where you want to vacation - seems perhaps potentially to fail here - whether purchased developer or resale.

time will tell.


----------



## natstr

Quick check of my Desert Springs I red week 2 bedroom Villa -- = 3,200 points essentially.  

But when I look to see what it would take to book a prime week at the same resort from late January to April -- it would take 4,200 points.  

So while I like the flexibility of using my time by night, doesn't seem like a fair trade to start off.  

Am I reading this right?

Paul


----------



## Aviator621

tahoeJoe said:


> For every Marriott owner who has traded a studio for a one bedroom, a one bedroom for a 2 bedroom, or a gold week for platinum week, THAT IS NOW GONE IN THE NEW SYSTEM. You only get what you paid for and in many cases not even that.
> 
> IMHO, I don't this new system is a good deal for 75% of the existing owners. I think Marriott will create a lot of unhappy owners.
> 
> -TJ



Just an observation--for every TUGer that has traded 'up' means out there was an owner willing to trade down--2 for 1; 1 for studio.  I suspect there will be owners out there who look at this and say "Last year I gave up my 2 bedroom for a one to get the dates I wanted and was left with nothing, but I can now make the same trade and have points left over for next year? Sign me up!" Most didn't take the time to learn the system before, or have the patience to wait for a trade; to them this will be an easy up-sale.


----------



## KathyPet

Expect to close on our St.Kitts week purchased through a private 3rd party soon.  We received closing docs Friday and have to sign and return with a check.   This week will never be eligible for the new program.  We will get 3325 pts for our Grand Ocean gold week and 2375 for our Manor Club platinum.  I really don't see why this is so great except that you can tailor your vacation to be a little more individual.  If you only want to stay at a Marriott for three nights you can do that.  I need to check out the options to use the points for other things but those links are not working right now.  According to the MVCI rep I spoke to they are hoping to have them up tomorrow


----------



## OWMBGV

I have been following the "parent" and now this one since I am the owner of GV silver week (1,225 points) at Ocean Watch and aside from the fee to convert, this system may/potentially work for me - I think - got to weed through the details.  In our case, we drive from NJ (during teachers week - late Oct/Nov in NJ -now spring break has opened up for us) and typically arrive late Sat - too late for the kids to enjoy anyway.  To get a beat on traffic and for the kids to get back to school we leave Friday.   Now we will just check into a Residence Inn (using free nights from the marriott visa) for the Sat night and then Ocean Watch on Sunday with same Fri check out - doing this will save me 500 points per year, which in a few years comes in handy.  I haven't thought this through fully yet, but I think in conjunction with the Marriott Rewards program, I can maximize my limited points (if I convert).  One of the reasons we havent done St. Kitts is that I just cant imagine being there 7 nights - 5 would seem ideal even with young kids.   Now we can stay on another island for the weekend to avoid the huge weekend markup and then fly over to St. Kitts for 4/5 days.   I could never get an exchange to Hawaii so nothing lost there.  

It seems like every enhancements Marriott announces just serve to devalue their once pretty good programs.  The program is what it is, so now my objective to best maximize the benefits I can extract.


----------



## pfrank4127

MRMarriott said:


> I wonder if someone could answer a question for me.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of concern about how much the week is worth and how much it will be to go to your home club.
> 
> For example, my MountainSide week is 5,350 Plat but ranges from 4,450 to 6,900 in season...
> 
> Still, I think we have to think about electing points as an _enhancement_. Points aren't for owners who just go to their home club every year - it's for owners who want to go for a few nights here and there or try the new Explorer program or want to pay less fees.
> 
> If you do want to go to your home club, owners have the best of both worlds. I can book the week the way I always have in the home club week pool - a pool that is separate from points exchangers.
> 
> So... I'm getting 7 nights as a home club owner for less than someone trying to get the same week using points. And, if I do want to try other clubs or go for a couple of nights to Vegas or something like that, that's a new option which I never had before.
> 
> I think it makes sense to see how many points you get and how many points your week is worth, but you would never use points to get 7 days back at your home resort. That's just not what they're for...



I tend to agree with this line of thinking.  What concerns me is that the total point amounts to stay at a resort is not locked to stay the same.


----------



## l2trade

gmarine said:


> Marriott sure is looking out for its owners. If you paid the vastly overpriced developer price, even very recently, they hose you for another $600. If you decided to save some $$ and buy resale, they hose you even more.
> 
> Now its going to be interesting to watch the effect on resale prices.
> 
> I would love to see this thing fail miserably.



I agree that I would love to see this points system fail miserably and go back to the way things were.  Unfortunately, as we learned from the Starwood fiasco, owners wanting to vote with their feet will get hurt the most.  If we complain loudly on this board like we did with Starwood, watch out for falling resale prices.  

The more I read the fine print, the happier I am that I didn't buy Marriott resale before this change.  If I buy someday, I see no reason to buy until resale prices bottom out.  Or beyond that and better yet, Marriott has given me the warning to never buy.  With Starwood, that warning came too late.  

I do not want to see existing owners of any timeshares stuck with an unwanted ownership.  That is the ugly, ugly and all too common part of the timeshare world.  I love my vacations and traveling to timeshares.  I am a big fan of timeshares, but changes like this validate the craziness & BS that the timeshare industry is all too notorious for.  These developers are too short sighted and greedy to recognize the benefits of a healthy & competitive resale market.


----------



## hipslo

MRMarriott said:


> For example, my MountainSide week is 5,350 Plat but ranges from 4,450 to 6,900 in season...
> 
> Still, I think we have to think about electing points as an _enhancement_. Points aren't for owners who just go to their home club every year - it's for owners who want to go for a few nights here and there or try the new Explorer program or want to pay less fees.
> 
> If you do want to go to your home club, owners have the best of both worlds. I can book the week the way I always have in the home club week pool - a pool that is separate from points exchangers.



this is only the case if the allocation of inventory between the two pools is done on some sort of pro rata basis based on each check in date under the current system.  if the allocation is done that way, i agree with you.  if it isnt, prime weeks potentially become much more difficult to reserve. none of the materials specificy the basis on which the allocation is to be done.


----------



## qlaval




----------



## abdibile

*Ability to transfer points to other owners*

There seems to be the ability to transfer (rent out?) points to other MVC members.

Under "Book my vaction" on vacationclub.com, the following option is offered:

Transfer

Transfer all or just some of your Vacation Club Points to another Marriott Vacation Club Points Owner or Enrolled Owner.


----------



## tombo

Some things about the new points system I was right about, some things I postulated weren't even close, but the main thing myself and many other TUGGERS were correct about was that the new points systems would be bad for resale owners,  bad for resale sellers, bad for resale prices of what you own whether you purchased retail or resale, and that the new benefits for points owners would come at the expense of owners who won't pay to convert to points. This points program is as expected, only good for Marriott, and bad for everyone else.


----------



## 1965

if you only have 2000 Marriott Destination Vacatiion Club points
and
you only want (1) night in a studio at a MVC Resort

when can you make this reservation?
how many days out??


----------



## floyddl

1965 said:


> if you only have 2000 Marriott Destination Vacatiion Club points
> and
> you only want (1) night in a studio at a MVC Resort
> 
> when can you make this reservation?
> how many days out??



It seem like inside of 60 days.


----------



## Y-ASK

tombo said:


> This points program is as expected, only good for Marriott, and bad for everyone else.



Well maybe and maybe not.  I'm not going to jump to any conclusions just yet.  For someone like me it might be a reasonable deal.  I'm a resale owner with just one week:  Harbour Lakes, Platnum which gives me 2550 points if I convert.  This summer is probably the last year we are going to stay at my home resort and would probably either sell or try to rent for the next several years.  We already own DVC pts and a Diamond Resorts 3 bdr at Grand Beach II and in my opinion my Grand Beach bought for $500 bucks is way better and larger than my Harbour Lakes that I bought for $7,500.00.  I have always liked OceanWatch and have stayed there via rentals for two previous summers and I would like to go again on a regular bases.

So it seems that if I convert I could go just about every other year to OceanWatch during the summer months at a cost of about $2,100.00 (MF and Club fees) which seems to be a reasonably good price in the rental market right now.  And with left over points I might be able to work in some golf time during the Fall/Winter months.  I'm not happy that I have pay $1,000.00 more than a "Internal" owner but I can deal with it...

Y-ASK

What am I missing that would make this a bad deal for me?


----------



## LAX Mom

Summit Watch bronze week has no point value! According to Marriott it's of no value (points) in their new points program.

I wasn't expecting it to be worth very much, but just called and talked to a Marriott rep. It's a Marriott week that pays the same MF as a platinum week but Marriott assigns it no value under the new system!


----------



## GregT

Wow, I'm really really bummed.  

I'm one of those people who was holding out hope that the new system would be innovative and creative, and be a win-win.   I almost even bought an EOY at Ko Olina last week (to give me the Right to Rescind if I didn't like the program).  I would definitely be rescinding.

No Open Season?  (at this time, according to sales rep)

Bid-Ask spread to Marriott?   

For my two 3BR fixed weeks at MOC, I get 10,225 points each -- when to book the identical unit is 11,800 points?  That's a healthy spread.     Let's say I decide to generate some points -- I contribute Week 24 Unit 4206 and get 10,225 points.  Because I still want to come, but don't want to bring a friend, I book a 2BR OF in Lahaina Villas,  Week 24 Unit 4208, right next door.  I give Marriott 8,650 points for the 2BR.  I net 1,565 points to use elsewhere, which I can't even book a studio anywhere.   

So, let's say I decide I want to go to Frenchman's Cove in 2013.  I'm going to pay $695 now and $199 per year until 2013 when I finally do the points trade?  Not likely -- I'll just do a Direct Exchange in 2013.

I do think this is going to kill resale values -- which means we can buy resale properties for cheaper and then do Direct Exchanges with other owners, or use a different trading company.   I'll start scouring eBay as disenchanted owners sell their Ko Olina units.

What a letdown.


----------



## abdibile

Y-ASK said:


> So it seems that if I convert I could go just about every other year to OceanWatch during the summer months at a cost of about $2,100.00 (MF and Club fees) which seems to be a reasonably good price in the rental market right now.  And with left over points I might be able to work in some golf time during the Fall/Winter months.  I'm not happy that I have pay $1,000.00 more than a "Internal" owner but I can deal with it...
> 
> Y-ASK
> 
> What am I missing that would make this a bad deal for me?



Have you taken into account the purchase price of your week?

If you owned at OceanWatch the annual costs would be way lower. 

Would it perhaps make sense to sell the Orlando week and buy Ocean Watch resale saving the $1,500 for joining the program?


----------



## ira g

*Rci Points*

I never thought I would say this but RCI points are beginning to look a whole lot better than Marriott Vacation Club points.


----------



## VacationPro

Does somebody know how the Marriott Rewards Point conversions will work?  Will the reward points received be based on the the Destination club points relinquished, or will it be based on the underlying week?


----------



## abdibile

LAX Mom said:


> Summit Watch bronze week has no point value!



It was clear that it had no value that is why it was by far the cheapest developer week ever sold at $1,500 including closing costs. 

Buy where/when you want to use!

But it was a good week to arbitrage the Interval exchange system as long as this opportunity lasted (or is still continuing, time will tell)


----------



## hipslo

*Say Goodbye to Benefit of 13 Month Booking Window  for Weeks Owners?*

I just got off the phone with one of the marriott "advisors".  Apparently, while the NUMBER of units available to weeks and points owners, respectively, at 13 months will be tracked separately, and will depend on the number of owners in the relevant season who have converted, there will be NO allocation of inventory between the two groups, it will be purely first come/ first serve. 

 So, using mountainside (a sold out resort) as an example, even if only, say, 5% of owners convert, the number of platinum units available to points owners would be  5% of ALL platinum weeks.  Then, 13 months prior to the first check in date of a prime week, ALL points owners who have at least premiere status, as well as all mutliple week mountainside owners who are making concurrent or consecutive reservations, can call in to reserve the prime week.  At that point it is first come/ first serve, and the weeks owners and points owners are supposed to be on a level playing field. 

 This is a potential MASSIVE increase in the competition for prime weeks that did not previously apply at 13 months.  If it is correct, it is the equivalent of competing, 13 months out, not only with multiple week owners at the home resort, but with ANY multiple week owner who wanted to trade into the home resort via II.  

The person I spoke with didnt seem sure that this was correct, but she put me on hold, spoke with her supevisior, then came back and confirmed that this was, in fact, how it is going to work.


----------



## GregT

One other thing -- I bet their is a profit component in the MFs.  $400 for 1,000 points?  That's a Hawaii level for MFs -- wow!!


----------



## 5infam

*I don't like it, but over time - may not have a choice!!*

I am used to points based programs because I own DVC - but because I am a resale owner, and have to buy into this thing, I look at it a lot differently.

I called in and spoke to a Marriott rep. He told me that basically, I get 3100 points for my garden view 1 bdr in Maui. That is the same amount of points for a mid-summer week, which is when I go, so that is a break even. If it were just left at that, then I wouldn't bother spending the money to join. I do use my Maui week for trades, but usually right back into Maui so I can go for 2 weeks EOY, instead of just 1 week per year

However, he told me that starting on June 22nd, Marriott will no longer sell weeks like we all own; but will only sell points. So, as a go forward basis, all new owners will be on points and we all will be on that old outdated system. I can already feel the depressed resale market sliding further downward. Keep in mind that I make that statement from a pure marketing stand point, assuming the sales people will be all over that in an effort to cut resales. New owners don't pay a fee to join the program, it is just part of the points they buy.

The only potential saving grace I see is that the Marriott Rep stated that for exchanges through II, the inventory will be completely separate than exchanges made through the points system. He said if you are on points, you get a separate II number. He told me that if I do nothing, then when I exchange with II, everything will be as it is today and the inventory available will only come from other legacy week owners like myself. The "sales pitch" was that over time, all new owners will be points, so I won't have access to their deposits - and as legacy weeks owners buy into the points system, their trades will also no longer be available to me. Therefore, eventually, my Marriott trade options will be less and less and I will be left with the few folks that never converted. 

I started the last paragraph saying this could actually be a saving grace - and that is because I believe that for what I own and wish to trade (back into Maui), that developer weeks are pretty much sold out. So, hopefully that means not very many points owners. Now, that theory could be blown out of the water if the majority of weeks owners buy into the program - or if there are no home resort priorities, etc. - but I have not seen any firm info on that yet.

So if anyone has an answer or if I am way off here, please feel free to chime in. I am trying to figure this out like the rest of us!!


----------



## abdibile

GregT said:


> I net 1,565 points to use elsewhere, which I can't even book a studio anywhere.



With that "change" you can book 25 days in a Studio in off-season in Branson! Or even 12 days in a 2 BR


----------



## ira g

Who is going to pay for the increased MF's for the cleaning fees which could be up to seven times per week based on a potential daily reservation?


----------



## abdibile

VacationPro said:


> Does somebody know how the Marriott Rewards Point conversions will work?  Will the reward points received be based on the the Destination club points relinquished, or will it be based on the underlying week?



For legacy owners it will be based on the underlying week:

"An Eligible Member who did not have the ability to trade the use of their Interest in a particular Use Year for Marriott Rewards points prior to enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program shall receive the amount of Marriott Rewards points for each traded Interest as specified in the applicable Resort Rules & Regulations for the resort where the Interest is located."


----------



## PamK

hipslo said:


> I just got off the phone with one of the marriott "advisors".  Apparently, while the NUMBER of units available to weeks and points owners, respectively, at 13 months will be tracked separately, and will depend on the number of owners in the relevant season who have converted, there will be NO allocation of inventory between the two groups, it will be purely first come/ first serve.
> 
> So, using mountainside (a sold out resort) as an example, even if only, say, 5% of owners convert, the number of platinum units available to points owners would be  5% of ALL platinum weeks.  Then, 13 months prior to the first check in date of a prime week, ALL points owners who have at least premiere status, as well as all mutliple week mountainside owners who are making concurrent or consecutive reservations, can call in to reserve the prime week.  At that point it is first come/ first serve, and the weeks owners and points owners are supposed to be on a level playing field.
> 
> This is a potential MASSIVE increase in the competition for prime weeks that did not previously apply at 13 months.  If it is correct, it is the equivalent of competing, 13 months out, not only with multiple week owners at the home resort, but with ANY multiple week owner who wanted to trade into the home resort via II.
> 
> The person I spoke with didnt seem sure that this was correct, but she put me on hold, spoke with her supevisior, then came back and confirmed that this was, in fact, how it is going to work.


This to me is the biggest downside to the new system. It will become harder to get onto your OWN property than it ever has before. Availability will be the issue. It will be a problem at both 12 and 13 months out.


----------



## Twinkstarr

PamK said:


> This to me is the biggest downside to the new system. It will become harder to get onto your OWN property than it ever has before. Availability will be the issue.



This will be a real bummer for people who own only 1 week at places like Grande Ocean, Oceanwatch etc in plat. season.


----------



## trgow

GregT said:


> One other thing -- I bet their is a profit component in the MFs.  $400 for 1,000 points?  That's a Hawaii level for MFs -- wow!!



MF of $0.40/point may not be too bad....  Based on the MFs and points assigned for my 2 weeks,  I'm paying $0.47/point.  I'm sure there will be a wide range of $/point in this supposed "fair" system.  I'd love to know what $MF/point others are paying IF they join the new system.


----------



## abdibile

hipslo said:


> This is a potential MASSIVE increase in the competition for prime weeks that did not previously apply at 13 months.  If it is correct, it is the equivalent of competing, 13 months out, not only with multiple week owners at the home resort, but with ANY multiple week owner who wanted to trade into the home resort via II.



But owners of three weeks or 2 lockoffs should still have a head start over points owners as they can call in 13 months before the first checkin date of a series of consecutive reservations.


----------



## Y-ASK

abdibile said:


> Have you taken into account the purchase price of your week?
> 
> If you owned at OceanWatch the annual costs would be way lower.
> 
> Would it perhaps make sense to sell the Orlando week and buy Ocean Watch resale saving the $1,500 for joining the program?



I totally agree with "Buy where you want to stay" but I bought thinking that I really wanted to stay there.  Then I was able to stay at Cypress Harbour before I ever got a chance to stay at Harbour Lakes and I was some what disappointed after my 1st Harbour Lakes stay when I compared the two.

I really don't think I could get any where close to the $7,500.00 I paid via resale and the resale prices for a platnum Oceanwatch are all well over $10,000.00.  And now with the points system I can see that my Harbour Lakes week is probably worth signficantly less.

Maybe I could just do the conversion and hope that an Oceanwatch Platnum week price falls far enough that I can pick up a week for under $7,000.00 in the next few years.  Then I could use the points system to try other resorts that I normally wouldn't go to...

Y-ASK


----------



## abdibile

GregT said:


> One other thing -- I bet their is a profit component in the MFs.  $400 for 1,000 points?  That's a Hawaii level for MFs -- wow!!



It should be the average of all weeks in the trust.

If we assume that Marriott predominatly owned gold and silver weeks with a poor MF/points value ratio this could be correct.


----------



## tombo

MRMarriott said:


> I wonder if someone could answer a question for me.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of concern about how much the week is worth and how much it will be to go to your home club.
> 
> For example, my MountainSide week is 5,350 Plat but ranges from 4,450 to 6,900 in season...
> 
> Still, I think we have to think about electing points as an _enhancement_. Points aren't for owners who just go to their home club every year - it's for owners who want to go for a few nights here and there or try the new Explorer program or want to pay less fees.
> 
> If you do want to go to your home club, owners have the best of both worlds. I can book the week the way I always have in the home club week pool - a pool that is separate from points exchangers.
> 
> So... I'm getting 7 nights as a home club owner for less than someone trying to get the same week using points. And, if I do want to try other clubs or go for a couple of nights to Vegas or something like that, that's a new option which I never had before.
> 
> I think it makes sense to see how many points you get and how many points your week is worth, but you would never use points to get 7 days back at your home resort. That's just not what they're for...



So if Marriott in their infinite wisdom determines that your week is worth 5350 even though you can book weeks at your home resort weeks worth up to 6900 points, then everyone needs to be happy because you can use your home resort without worrying about being shortchanged on the points you receive for your deposited week at your home resort? That is crazy. Marriott is telling you what a week at your resort in your season is worth, yet they want to give you less points than Marriott says it is worth. 

If my week and season currently allows me to reserve a week at my home resort  that is worth according to Marriott 6900 points, then that means using Marriotts own points ratings that I should be able to exchange for any 6900 point week within the Marriott point system. If what I own is 6900 points for Sally Jones to exchange for, and what John Doe deposits will cost me 6900 points, I should have enough points to exchange for John Doe's week internally since Sally paid 6900 points to stay in the week I deposited. Marriott is making money shortchanging me on points, Sally on points, and John Doe too.

If Marriott has allocated points between resorts equitably, then they are telling owners what each resort/week/season is worth. They are charging more points to exchangers to stay in a week than they are giving to the owner who deposited the exact same week into the points system. Marriott keeps all of the extra points and owners don't have enough points each year to trade for a like week at an identically points priced resort. Nothing is fair or equitable about the way they have set up the points.


----------



## hipslo

abdibile said:


> But owners of three weeks or 2 lockoffs should still have a head start over points owners as they can call in 13 months before the first checkin date of a series of consecutive reservations.



Points owners can do the same, and can do so in any daily increments that they desire.  Also, I believe the points inventory opens each tuesday for the following week, a couple of days earlier than the thurs or fri that weeks inventory opens.


----------



## floyddl

GregT said:


> Wow, I'm really really bummed.
> 
> I'm one of those people who was holding out hope that the new system would be innovative and creative, and be a win-win.   I almost even bought an EOY at Ko Olina last week (to give me the Right to Rescind if I didn't like the program).  I would definitely be rescinding.
> 
> No Open Season?  (at this time, according to sales rep)
> 
> Bid-Ask spread to Marriott?
> 
> For my two 3BR fixed weeks at MOC, I get 10,225 points each -- when to book the identical unit is 11,800 points?  That's a healthy spread.     Let's say I decide to generate some points -- I contribute Week 24 Unit 4206 and get 10,225 points.  Because I still want to come, but don't want to bring a friend, I book a 2BR OF in Lahaina Villas,  Week 24 Unit 4208, right next door.  I give Marriott 8,650 points for the 2BR.  I net 1,565 points to use elsewhere, which I can't even book a studio anywhere.
> 
> So, let's say I decide I want to go to Frenchman's Cove in 2013.  I'm going to pay $695 now and $199 per year until 2013 when I finally do the points trade?  Not likely -- I'll just do a Direct Exchange in 2013.
> 
> I do think this is going to kill resale values -- which means we can buy resale properties for cheaper and then do Direct Exchanges with other owners, or use a different trading company.   I'll start scouring eBay as disenchanted owners sell their Ko Olina units.
> 
> What a letdown.



Unfortunately Marriott gets to grab your great buy on EBAY on ROFR.


----------



## wuv pooh

tahoeJoe said:


> You are exactly right. The point system appears to only benefit Marriott and harms most existing owners.



I don't see how this system benefits Marriott at all.  There are still the same number of points.

They give you 800 points for joining - so that is a wash
They get the fee for running the exchange system - they can get that anyway by replacing II.

Are you saying that they will somehow "steal" weeks to use for themselves?  How does that work, unless the system causes fewer people to reserve time at the resorts. 

Fewer people using weekend nights so that they can be rented 60 days out?  Seems like a risky strategy if they do not rent.

What the system does is show the true value of the weeks that everyone purchased.  A platinum week is not a platinum week.  We at TUG already know that and take advantage of it  

By definition every Platinum owner can not get the points for the highest Platinum week in the points system.  Those that want the week will now pay for it instead of getting 'lucky' through II.  We have moved from rationing by lottery and getting up at 9am to rationing by points.  That is fairer for the majority of owners.

The sweet spot is now for people who can drive to resorts and use Sun-Thurs nights.  It seems like the initial DVC program with Weekend points way too high compared to weekdays.  There will be a big shift to Sun-Thur stays.  Will be interesting to see if the new system can provide the demand.

The true value appears correct to me.  I can now trade my Platinum Manor Club for 4 days Platinum Grande Ocean Ocean Front.  Three years ago I traded my Harbor Lake Gold for a full week Platinum Grande Ocean Ocean Front  I will not get those unfair exchanges in the points system  

Points owner will get first shot at the inventory, so that is a big inducement to join.  Also borrowing and banking gives me the flexibility to take a nice trip if I want.  

I will probably join the system to obtain the flexibility.  I usually only need a 1bd, but would like to reserve 3bd for special occassions.  Right now it is very difficult to get a 3bd through II.  I can also get more that 7 nights for my weeks by staying Sun-Thurs, which I will do.


----------



## GregT

floyddl said:


> Unfortunately Marriott gets to grab your great buy on EBAY on ROFR.



That is indeed a risk -- I think it will also depend on how sold-out the property was -- if Ko Olina has lots of units in the pool, then Marriott may not want yet another....

Thanks!


----------



## jin

DanCali said:


> Fortunately for Marriott, Mr. & Mrs. tourist don't know about the resale market... it worked so far with most of the 400,000 owners who didn't know they could buy (almost) the same thing for much less..



Is there a way to get "THE WORD OUT" to all MVC owners???


----------



## ondeadlin

LAX Mom said:


> Summit Watch bronze week has no point value! According to Marriott it's of no value (points) in their new points program.
> 
> I wasn't expecting it to be worth very much, but just called and talked to a Marriott rep. It's a Marriott week that pays the same MF as a platinum week but Marriott assigns it no value under the new system!



I believe this is because the week were not originally deeded/sold by Marriott. When the property was developed, these weeks were reserved to the board. The board then created the "bronze" season and asked Marriott to sell the weeks for them.

It's a bit of a technicality, but I can understand why Marriott would take the technicality to exclude virtually worthless weeks from the system.


----------



## Frisbeeace

dougp26364 said:


> So, Marriott is giving the shaft to existing owners by not even alotting them what would be enough points to rebook into their home resort. It seems Marriott has place a higher value on the weeks than they are willing to give their owners.



Not any different to what happens with your Marriott Rewards points when you trade in your week for points. Think of them as a currency, so Marriott has a profit with the spread between the buying and selling prices.

I hope that this new "enhancement" will please most of my fellow co-owners at Sabal Palms who are waitlisted to sell thru Marriott so my weeks move ahead and I can finally end this nightmare.


----------



## NJDave

abdibile said:


> For legacy owners it will be based on the underlying week:
> 
> "An Eligible Member who did not have the ability to trade the use of their Interest in a particular Use Year for Marriott Rewards points prior to enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program shall receive the amount of Marriott Rewards points for each traded Interest as specified in the applicable Resort Rules & Regulations for the resort where the Interest is located."




I concluded that an eligible member does not include a resale owner that converts so we would still not have that benefit.    

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/marriott_rewards.pdf


----------



## hipslo

DB-Wis said:


> These changes hardly seem to have warranted almost 3,000 postings, many of which expressing great angst at the grave injustice to which we were all about to be subjected.  Just think how all of our properties might have benefited if that energy had been devoted to working constructively to address real issues rather than wringing hands for months speculating, analyzing and fretting over a parade of horribles that never appeared.



read on...


----------



## larue

NJDave said:


> I concluded that an eligible member does not include a resale owner that converts so we would still not have that benefit.
> 
> https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/marriott_rewards.pdf



Owner services told me that, as a resale owner, I would be allowed to trade for Marriott Reward Points if I enroll in the new system.


----------



## tombo

Y-ASK said:


> Well maybe and maybe not.  I'm not going to jump to any conclusions just yet.  For someone like me it might be a reasonable deal.  I'm a resale owner with just one week:  Harbour Lakes, Platnum which gives me 2550 points if I convert.  This summer is probably the last year we are going to stay at my home resort and would probably either sell or try to rent for the next several years.  We already own DVC pts and a Diamond Resorts 3 bdr at Grand Beach II and in my opinion my Grand Beach bought for $500 bucks is way better and larger than my Harbour Lakes that I bought for $7,500.00.  I have always liked OceanWatch and have stayed there via rentals for two previous summers and I would like to go again on a regular bases.
> 
> So it seems that if I convert I could go just about every other year to OceanWatch during the summer months at a cost of about $2,100.00 (MF and Club fees) which seems to be a reasonably good price in the rental market right now.  And with left over points I might be able to work in some golf time during the Fall/Winter months.  I'm not happy that I have pay $1,000.00 more than a "Internal" owner but I can deal with it...
> 
> Y-ASK
> 
> What am I missing that would make this a bad deal for me?




If you get 2550 annual points for your deposited week, and they charge another points owner 3000 points to exchange for your week you deposited, then you at 2550 points are not getting what your week is worth, or what Marriott charges others. That is a benefit for Marriott and a ripoff for all points owners.

In addition you won't have enough points to stay at a comparable resort/week/season to the one that you deposited because a comparable exchange will cost you 3000 or more points. Before points you could exchange what you have for almost any comparable Marriott resort, but that will no longer be possible. Before points you also had a chance to trade up to many destinations including Ocean Watch, Hawaii, and most other locations if you were flexible with travel times. Now with many resorts/seasons costing over 6000 points it will take you 3 years to accumulate enough points to trade for what you could have traded week for week in the past, and that is if they will even let you carry points over for 3 years. Trading up is gone under points (which many agree with), but trading like for like is gone too since marriott gives you less points each year than a comparable resort costs meaning you can either trade down or borrow points from upcoming years to trade like for like.

This is a bad deal for you and everyone when marriott gives the owner less annual points than they charge another owner to stay in the identical week. That is not counting the fact that they are killing resale values by charging $2000 tranfer fees and threatening the possibility of not ever allowing resales to ever become points in the future. They also are claiming access to all inventory deposited with II, whether it was deposited by a weeks owner or a points owner, which in the long run will kill your trading power with II and will immediatelly reduce prime inventory that Marriott siphons off of what was deposited in II by weeks owners to use for it's internal points exchange program. This is just what we know from the inital launch, I fee lsure many more things will come to light as the months/years pass.


----------



## pfrank4127

wuv pooh said:


> I don't see how this system benefits Marriott at all.  There are still the same number of points.
> 
> They give you 800 points for joining - so that is a wash
> They get the fee for running the exchange system - they can get that anyway by replacing II.
> 
> Are you saying that they will somehow "steal" weeks to use for themselves?  How does that work, unless the system causes fewer people to reserve time at the resorts.
> 
> Fewer people using weekend nights so that they can be rented 60 days out?  Seems like a risky strategy if they do not rent.
> 
> What the system does is show the true value of the weeks that everyone purchased.  A platinum week is not a platinum week.  We at TUG already know that and take advantage of it
> 
> By definition every Platinum owner can not get the points for the highest Platinum week in the points system.  Those that want the week will now pay for it instead of getting 'lucky' through II.  We have moved from rationing by lottery and getting up at 9am to rationing by points.  That is fairer for the majority of owners.
> 
> The sweet spot is now for people who can drive to resorts and use Sun-Thurs nights.  It seems like the initial DVC program with Weekend points way too high compared to weekdays.  There will be a big shift to Sun-Thur stays.  Will be interesting to see if the new system can provide the demand.
> 
> The true value appears correct to me.  I can now trade my Platinum Manor Club for 4 days Platinum Grande Ocean Ocean Front.  Three years ago I traded my Harbor Lake Gold for a full week Platinum Grande Ocean Ocean Front  I will not get those unfair exchanges in the points system
> 
> Points owner will get first shot at the inventory, so that is a big inducement to join.  Also borrowing and banking gives me the flexibility to take a nice trip if I want.
> 
> I will probably join the system to obtain the flexibility.  I usually only need a 1bd, but would like to reserve 3bd for special occassions.  Right now it is very difficult to get a 3bd through II.  I can also get more that 7 nights for my weeks by staying Sun-Thurs, which I will do.



agree 100%, Now if it wasn't going to cost $2000 I would join today.


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## tahoeJoe

*Short-sighted thinking by Marriott*

We will all make our own decisions about whether or not this new program will work for us. But, for those owners who paid for "platinum" and now have tin or EOY owners who will be asked to pay full-time "club dues" every year for no reason and full enrollment fees, it seems like a pretty raw deal. Marriott is indeed stacking the deck in its favor, but I also think by screwing their existing owners, Marriott is making a bad long-term decision. They are effectively killing their best unpaid sales force, good word-of-mouth by existing owners. 

It'll be hard to use the "lifetime of family vacations" and the "hedge against inflation" sales pitch to new owners after having added additional costs and devalued existing inventory for existing owners. 

Mrs. Tahoe Joe


----------



## MikeB2620

I read through the exchange rules very quickly, and did not see anything on how lockoffs were going to be handled? Will I still have the option of locking off and staying 2 weeks at my resort, or, if I choose to join the points program, will they give me points for my portion I lock off and do not use?


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## ral

bw3 said:


> So the program would benefit you under these circumstances.  It would not work for Grande Ocean.  Marriott will offer 4,200 for platinum but charge 4,500 to reserve it.  They give 3,325 for gold but ask 3,450 to reserve it.  Oh and by the way, 3 of the gold weeks I have reserved for 2011 would require 4,500 as if they were platinum.  Also, Frenchmans Cove 3br plat will get me 5,025 points but I would need 5,675 to reserve it.  No thanks!  Bob



One wonders why Marriott is offering 5750 points for 2 Bedroom Platinum Oceanside for Surfwatch, but only 4200 points for 2 Bedroom Platinum (I'm assuming Oceanside) at Grande Ocean. This is a huge discrepancy!


----------



## abdibile

larue said:


> Owner services told me that, as a resale owner, I would be allowed to trade for Marriott Reward Points if I enroll in the new system.



How do I find out how many Rewards Points (hotel points system) my week is worth?


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## larue

*Interesting Small Print in Enrollment Contract*

Here are a couple of interesting negative provisions in the enrollment contract that I read on vacationclub.com:

(Owner) will not exercise any vote Owner may have in the owners" association ("Resort Association") operating the resort in which Owner's Timeshare Interest is located ("Resort") in a manner that is, in MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Program, including, without limitation, voting to limit or terminate the Resort's participation in the Program. 
. . . . 

Upon renewal of membership, any and all claims against MVCEC are deemed waived at that time, and MVCEC is released from all liability, if any, arising out of participation in the Program which occurred prior to the renewal of same; 
. . . . .


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## Numismatist

Are you giving up your deeded week by enrolling - or only by asking for points in a particular year?


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## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> If you get 2550 annual points for your deposited week, and they charge another points owner 3000 points to exchange for your week you deposited, then you at 2550 points are not getting what your week is worth, or what Marriott charges others. That is a benefit for Marriott and a ripoff for all points owners.



This is 100% false and you should not continue to propogate it.  It is now measured by demand instead of an arbitrary season.  Owners have always been ripped off, but now it is at least obvious/fair.  Most resorts have too long of a platinum season so we have reserved the "red" weeks instead of the "pink" weeks.  The pink owners got screwed with lower demanded weeks and lower trading power.

Now, everyone sees the relative values of the week they reserve.  More demanded weeks are allocated to those who will PAY for it, vs. the current lottery of calling in at 9am or using II.  

It is different, but it is not a new rip off.  Just a different rip off than you are accustomed to.


----------



## larue

abdibile said:


> How do I find out how many Rewards Points (hotel points system) my week is worth?



Owner services told me it would be the same as a developer purchaser from the same resort.


----------



## Y-ASK

I never had a chance to trade via II so I guess I really don't know what I was missing.  I either rented or stayed there myself.  I guess I'm looking at it from a "I get 5100 points every two years" view and if I have been willing to pay $2,500 plus to stay at Oceanwatch in the past then using those points could work out nicely.  I understand why Marriott can't give everyone full prime time points for owner weeks that may fall into those time periods.  That's why they give you the oportunity to keep your week as is.  But I probably won't ever stay at my home resort again, I certainly won't pay deverloper prices, and selling in this market is a lose/lose situation so doing the conversion might make sense in my situation.  But I will keep my eye open for good deals on resales and it will be interesting to see if Marriott starts back up with it's ROFR again.

Y-ASK


----------



## abdibile

Numismatist said:


> Are you giving up your deeded week by enrolling - or only by asking for points in a particular year?



You keep your deeded week. 

By enrolling you just have the right to exchange one years usage for points


----------



## abdibile

larue said:


> Owner services told me it would be the same as a developer purchaser from the same resort.



That info is also in the documents.

But how do I find out how many Rewards Points (hotel points system) a developer purchaser got from the same resort??


----------



## LAX Mom

Where does Marriott get the inventory?

For example, Mountainside is sold out. What if someone purchases points tomorrow and wants to book Mountainside for next ski season? Will Marriott be able to provide the accommodations? What about Hilton Head in the summer? Newport in the summer

I think this new program is all smoke and mirrors. It allows Marriott to sell points that customers hope to use at popular resorts that have sold-out. Unless lots of owners convert Marriott will be short on inventory. Those point charts mights seem enticing to a new owner thinking he can get a summer week in Newport but in reality will the inventory be available to meet demand?

Marriott is just using this new points system to sell weeks at resorts that were long ago sold out. No new resorts, just the old ones with different packaging!


----------



## floyddl

wuv pooh said:


> This is 100% false and you should not continue to propogate it.  It is now measured by demand instead of an arbitrary season.  Owners have always been ripped off, but now it is at least obvious/fair.  Most resorts have too long of a platinum season so we have reserved the "red" weeks instead of the "pink" weeks.  The pink owners got screwed with lower demanded weeks and lower trading power.
> 
> Now, everyone sees the relative values of the week they reserve.  More demanded weeks are allocated to those who will PAY for it, vs. the current lottery of calling in at 9am or using II.
> 
> It is different, but it is not a new rip off.  Just a different rip off than you are accustomed to.



The difference was in the past we figured out how to work around the ripoff, now there is no longer a work around.


----------



## abdibile

floyddl said:


> The difference was in the past we figured out how to work around the ripoff, now there is no longer a work around.



Right! And probability of being able to get a peak week will be higher if you are willing to pay big time. This has improved over II exchanges where peak weeks never became available.

And really off season weeks still required an deposit and an exchange fee in II (or a few hundred $ as getaways). Now they can get cheaper.


----------



## floyddl

abdibile said:


> Right! And probability of being able to get a peak week will be higher if you are willing to pay big time. This has improved over II exchanges where peak weeks never became available.
> 
> And really off season weeks still required an deposit and an exchange fee in II (or a few hundred $ as getaways). Now they can get cheaper.



How can they be cheaper if you have to pay "big time".


----------



## LAX Mom

wuv pooh said:


> This is 100% false and you should not continue to propogate it.  It is now measured by demand instead of an arbitrary season.  Owners have always been ripped off, but now it is at least obvious/fair.  Most resorts have too long of a platinum season so we have reserved the "red" weeks instead of the "pink" weeks.  The pink owners got screwed with lower demanded weeks and lower trading power.
> 
> Now, everyone sees the relative values of the week they reserve.  More demanded weeks are allocated to those who will PAY for it, vs. the current lottery of calling in at 9am or using II.
> 
> It is different, but it is not a new rip off.  Just a different rip off than you are accustomed to.



If you bought a platinum week from Marriott you are entitled to use any week (subject to availablity) in the platinum system. This is the program that Marriott promoted and sold to owners. That was fair. 

With the new points Marriott will give you a certain number of points, but not always enough to stay some weeks during the platinum system. This is not fair.


----------



## wuv pooh

floyddl said:


> The difference was in the past we figured out how to work around the ripoff, now there is no longer a work around.



You are not very creative   I can now get 13 nights in a 1bd or 9 nights in a 2bd at Manor Club in exchange for my week during Platinum season.  I can do better if I move down or worse if I want to go during July 4th or on weekends.  The value is there, but the pattern will change


----------



## Y-ASK

LAX Mom said:


> With the new points Marriott will give you a certain number of points, but not always enough to stay some weeks during the platinum system. This is not fair.


But they also give you the option to keep your week as is within the points system and you can try to get the week you want at your home resort within your season too.  You can even still exchange it through II if you want.  I don't understand what's not fair about that... 


Y-ASK


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## wsrobinson

ral said:


> One wonders why Marriott is offering 5750 points for 2 Bedroom Platinum Oceanside for Surfwatch, but only 4200 points for 2 Bedroom Platinum (I'm assuming Oceanside) at Grande Ocean. This is a huge discrepancy!



Perhaps somehow they figured in original cost values?


----------



## abdibile

floyddl said:


> How can they be cheaper if you have to pay "big time".



Two different things:

Peak weeks: You can get them if you are willing to pay a lot, compared to not being able to get previously at all.

Off Season weeks: Cheaper


----------



## wuv pooh

LAX Mom said:


> If you bought a platinum week from Marriott you are entitled to use any week (subject to availablity) in the platinum system. This is the program that Marriott promoted and sold to owners. That was fair.
> 
> With the new points Marriott will give you a certain number of points, but not always enough to stay some weeks during the platinum system. This is not fair.



"Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder.  I was only able to reserve the week I wanted 1 out of 4 years.  I lost the lottery.  Is that fair?  I lost it to people who did not even want to use it, but wanted to trade it.  Is that fair?  I would have paid more to get that week.  Is that fair?  I was on business travel and could not call in until 10am, nothing was left, is that fair?  I had to pay the same amount in October (much lower demand) that people paid in July (much higher demand).  How is that fair to me?

You get the point


----------



## hipslo

LAX Mom said:


> Where does Marriott get the inventory?



According to the materials on the website, inventory at sold out resorts can come from (i) weeks owners who convert, (ii) weeks owners who trade their units in for marriott rewards points, and (iii) deposits into II, both from weeks owners (may be wrong about this, language is unclear, have read conflicting reports) and from points owners. 

 I was also told over the phone today that inventory is not allocated between weeks and points, it is simply a first come/ first serve massive free for all at 12 months (or 13 months).  

I am now hoping that resale prices of fixed weeks at the best resorts will fall.  Those would be great purchases for personal use (but not for trading).


----------



## LAX Mom

Y-ASK said:


> But they also give you the option to keep your week as is within the points system and you can try to get the week you want at your home resort within your season too.  You can even still exchange it through II if you want.  I don't understand what's not fair about that...
> 
> 
> Y-ASK



But that's the previous system, keep your week and use it during your season or exchange it with II. Of course that's fair if you want those options, that's what your purchased from Marriott.

I don't think the new point system is fair when they give you less points for your platinum week than it takes to book some platinum week at your resort. Marriott is making extra points off your week if they give you 4,000 points and charge someone else 5,000 points to use that week.


----------



## pfrank4127

floyddl said:


> The difference was in the past we figured out how to work around the ripoff, now there is no longer a work around.



No It's a new system so you have to learn where the advantages are.


----------



## Armada

I spoke with one of the representatives and additionally to one of the 'points specialists'.  

If you currently own one week(like me) and have already deposited next year's week and you want to join the points program, it may or may not be best to delay entry into the program until next year.  You would not really receive any benefit for signing up now(except the 800 points), but would still have to pay the enrollment fee and the $165 Club Fee for next year(2011) in November.  Club Fees will be due each November.  If you join now, you might possibly avoid an increased enrollment fee later.

When you sign up for the points program, all Interval activity for your Marriott weeks will be through the Marriott desk and you will have a new Interval account.  If you have other non-Marriott Interval timeshares, you will need to maintain a separate Interval account for those timeshares.

According to the points specialist, points are available in 250 point increments (not 1000 as posted elsewhere). Current cost for 250 points is $2300.  The specialist also told me that if I were to buy points at time I joined the points program, they would waive the $595 enrollment fee as a limited time promotion.  They confirmed a current maintenance fee $0.40/point.

If you buy points from them, there eventually be some type of buy back program, but no details are available now.  I wonder if they would offer anything similar at some point for weeks.  The specialist also stated that the resale program is gone.

Lastly, I was told the the owner resale program ended last month.


----------



## ral

wsrobinson said:


> This isn't true in all cases.  My SurfWatch week is valued at 5750 points which is more than enough (4500) to stay for 7 days at SurfWatch in platinum season.




I'm a little confused here. SueDonJ in Post #279 relates that her 3 Bedroom SurfWatch Platinum Oceanside was valued by Marriott at 5000 points. It doesn't seem reasonable that a 3 bedroom unit has less points associated with it than a 2 bedroom unit, both being Platinum and Oceanside. When the Marriott website gets easier to get into, would SueDonJ and wsrobinson mind rechecking their units' respective values? I'm hoping someone with the savvy to design it would volunteer to set up a grid showing the values offered by Marriott for the various properties, seasons, and locations. I certainly would contribute to such an endeavor.


----------



## caterina25

I'm thinking in the future we may all be able to purchase resale points to add to our current totals.That would give us a good chance to get the trades we want at a better price.The current $9.20 a point is too much money to get to the level of staying in a resort we now can use without buying into their new point system.To purchase the number of points to use my timeshare in Aruba would cost me(4650X9.20) $42,780(for a new purchase).To get back up to the level of using my home resort (they give me 4,075 for the unit and it cost 4650 to rent the unit) 4,650-4,075=575.I would need to purchase 575 extra points X9.20=$5,290 plus maintenance fees to be where I am now W/O doing anything.


----------



## hipslo

Y-ASK said:


> But they also give you the option to keep your week as is within the points system and you can try to get the week you want at your home resort within your season too.  You can even still exchange it through II if you want.  I don't understand what's not fair about that...
> 
> 
> Y-ASK



Weeks owners who do not convert are now in competition with ALL points owners for reservations at the home resort, to reserve a week at the home resort.  That is analagous to competing with those requesting to trade in through II to make a reservation, under the current system.


----------



## NJDave

Y-ASK said:


> But they also give you the option to keep your week as is within the points system and you can try to get the week you want at your home resort within your season too.  You can even still exchange it through II if you want.  I don't understand what's not fair about that...
> 
> 
> Y-ASK





There is a chart for trades in Interval.  You may not be able to trade back for what you own with your points.  We would not be able to get an exchange since we get 2,650 points and would need either 3,000 or 4,000 to get most weeks in our season. 


https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/buyers_guide2010.pdf

See page 6


----------



## wsrobinson

ral said:


> I'm a little confused here. SueDonJ in Post #279 relates that her 3 Bedroom SurfWatch Platinum Oceanside was valued by Marriott at 5000 points. It doesn't seem reasonable that a 3 bedroom unit has less points associated with it than a 2 bedroom unit, both being Platinum and Oceanside. When the Marriott website gets easier to get into, would SueDonJ and wsrobinson mind rechecking their units' respective values? I'm hoping someone with the savvy to design it would volunteer to set up a grid showing the values offered by Marriott for the various properties, seasons, and locations. I certainly would contribute to such an endeavor.



My value was from the website while SueDonJ wasn't able to get into the site yet.  My number is accurate, I just re-checked it.


----------



## LAX Mom

wuv pooh said:


> "Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder.  I was only able to reserve the week I wanted 1 out of 4 years.  I lost the lottery.  Is that fair?  I lost it to people who did not even want to use it, but wanted to trade it.  Is that fair?  I would have paid more to get that week.  Is that fair?  I was on business travel and could not call in until 10am, nothing was left, is that fair?  I had to pay the same amount in October (much lower demand) that people paid in July (much higher demand).  How is that fair to me?
> 
> You get the point



And you think with this new point system Marriott will always have the inventory available you want to book? As long as you have enough points you can get Newport or Hilton Head in the summer? Park City in ski season? Hawaii during spring break?

Salesmen didn't tell people it would be tough to get that Newport week in July every year. Do you expect them to now tell you the inventory will be limited? No they'll just show Mr & Mrs Tourist those point charts and say look at all the options!! They won't mention that Newport in the summer is almost impossible to book.

Some resorts/weeks are almost impossible to get during your season. This will be even more difficult when Marriott sells a bunch of points to new owners.


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> This is 100% false and you should not continue to propogate it.  It is now measured by demand instead of an arbitrary season.  Owners have always been ripped off, but now it is at least obvious/fair.  Most resorts have too long of a platinum season so we have reserved the "red" weeks instead of the "pink" weeks.  The pink owners got screwed with lower demanded weeks and lower trading power.
> 
> Now, everyone sees the relative values of the week they reserve.  More demanded weeks are allocated to those who will PAY for it, vs. the current lottery of calling in at 9am or using II.
> 
> It is different, but it is not a new rip off.  Just a different rip off than you are accustomed to.



It is not false. Now Marriott will give you less points for your deposited week than it will cost the exchanger to exchange for the week you deposited. If my week floats platinum and platinum season weeks range from 5000 points to 6000 points, then I can reserve a 6000 point week to use at my home resort. If Marriott gives me 5250 points when I deposit my week, then I will never be able to reserve a 6000 point week at any resort other than my own. In addition if the person exchanging for my home resort week that I would have used pays 6000 points for the priviledge while Marriott only gives me 5250 points, they are pocketing 750 points per owner. It is a rip off where marriott pays less points for deposited weeks than they charge to redeem them.


----------



## LAX Mom

paulaf52 said:


> To purchase the number of points to use my timeshare in Aruba would cost me(4650X9.20) $42,780.Crazy



In the current economy what is Marriott thinking? They honestly think they can sell these points? No wonder Fletch and others left Marriott sales?


----------



## floyddl

wuv pooh said:


> You are not very creative   I can now get 13 nights in a 1bd or 9 nights in a 2bd at Manor Club in exchange for my week during Platinum season.  I can do better if I move down or worse if I want to go during July 4th or on weekends.  The value is there, but the pattern will change



I am pretty creative, but I bought into the Marriott system knowing I could get value.  I don't have a need for 1 BR or for any nights in a Manor Club platinum season.  The fact that Marriott now can take the II deposits that were previously available for exchanges to use for their points program changes the rules that I knew when I purchased.  Having owned since 1995, I have found great value in the system.  Now, I find the value is in keeping the week I own and occupying or renting each year.  Not what I signed up for but I will maximize the value, and it will not involve paying Marriott to have the right to reserve another property because I don't have enough points to use the resort I own at.  

I own Hilton too and their system is more fair because I can reserve the property I own at for the points I purchased and get 3 months to do so before any non-owner can reserve it.  Hilton had the best system, although not the best selection of properties, before and still does.


----------



## Dean

thinze3 said:


> Your SurfWatch must be 3BR ???


I'm sure this is answered later but it looks like they've inadvertently listed 3 BR points for 2 BR weeks.  My SW GV unit (ALL 2 BR Platinum listed) is listed 4650, O Vista 6050.  For GO it's 4200 & 5025.  It seems Odd that SW would be so much more given the relative desirability even though it is newer.  And when I look at the costs to reserve at SW is less than BB & GO for the Ocean Vista but the same for GV and OS, must be an error in the points they're listing for SW, should be the same as BB for GV & OS and less than either GO or BB for O Vista vs OF.

I know some are having issues with the idea that you get less points than it takes to reserve that unit using points.  I'm not surprised and I suspect this is due to the fact that there will be the occasional day here and there that is wasted and the overage will even that out.  Could also be a way to pay for the system which will clearly cost more than the $199 fee for larger point owners.  To me that's not a big deal as I see the flexibility adds enough value to compensate for my situation.  OTOH, glad I don't own something like off season HP with fees equal to $2 per point.  I do think this system at present clearly benefits those with the higher demand resorts that have reasonable fees and those with multiple weeks of ownership.  Even better for them if they are lucky enough to have the right combo of lower dues and higher points per week.  Seems to hurt those of us who have bought "trading weeks" like Branson & Manor Club.

Looking at the info, I'll go back to my thoughts on the BEFORE thread.  I postulated that Gold would likely be the best value to convert and I think that's true but only for those that rank higher on the list anyway like HH, HI, etc.  I also postulated that it was possible that those with lower seasons (Bronze/Silver) Might also get a better value but that does not appear to be the case.  I know you get more points for platinum or higher but you also have more inherent value for a week not converted for higher demand resorts that are not used for points.  I do realize it will vary more on a case by case basis that I was anticipating.

I do think there is more variability between resorts of different areas, ages and demand that I expected.  Is anyone compiling a complete list of what points you get for each resort, view, unit type and season.  Wish I had time to do so at the present time but I don't.  Hopefully someone as compulsive as I but having more, or just better and quicker at these type of things time will do so.

All in all (big picture) it's looking much like I thought it would from the info we had all been able to put together.  Some significant plusses for me, some minor negatives as well compared to expectations.  

Maybe it was mentioned and I missed it, what are Priority I vs Priority II reservations.  Is this simply a way to reserve your own week vs a points reservation?



ada903 said:


> So it will cost $36,800 to buy 4,000 points, and $1,600 annual maintenance fee?  And most high season weeks at good resorts will cost 4,000-6,000 points? Ouch.


Some doubted when I said the fees would likely be significantly higher.  I think I said 20-30% and averages, it's like a little more than that.


----------



## Dean

wsrobinson said:


> My value was from the website while SueDonJ wasn't able to get into the site yet.  My number is accurate, I just re-checked it.


See my post above, I believe this to be an error and you're actually seeing the 3 BR points and not the 2 BR points.


----------



## molemay

*Renting weeks*

If you move to the points system, can you rent the weeks you get with points?


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> "Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder.  I was only able to reserve the week I wanted 1 out of 4 years.  I lost the lottery.  Is that fair?  I lost it to people who did not even want to use it, but wanted to trade it.  Is that fair?  I would have paid more to get that week.  Is that fair?  I was on business travel and could not call in until 10am, nothing was left, is that fair?  I had to pay the same amount in October (much lower demand) that people paid in July (much higher demand).  How is that fair to me?
> 
> You get the point



And points won't change anything other than how many points you need to get a prime week. There will now be points owners with enough points to reserve the hottest weeks on the phone at 8 am reserving the prime weeks, and at 10 am for the most sought after weeks all inventory will still be gone to the most agressive points owners. Marriott has not increased the total inventory by one week or one resort, they have only changed how the inventory will be allocated.


----------



## wsrobinson

Dean said:


> See my post above, I believe this to be an error and you're actually seeing the 3 BR points and not the 2 BR points.



I'm going into MY PAGE after logging in.  These are MY VALUES and I OWN a 2 BEDROOM Oceanside Platinum.  Below is from the site...

Eligible Inventories



Internal       Inventory Point Value Enrollment Fee 
There are no eligible inventories for enrollment. 
 SurfWatch
Floor Plan: 2BR + 2BA
View Type: Oceanside/Gardenview
Deeded Id: SF*5443*22*B 5,750 $0.00     

  SubTotal: 5,750 ✓Calculate 

External       Inventory Point Value Enrollment Fee 
There are no eligible inventories for enrollment. 
 Barony Beach Club
Floor Plan: 2BR + 2BA
View Type: Ocean Side View
Deeded Id: BB*9313*46*B 1,925 $0.00     

  SubTotal: 1,925 ✓Calculate 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Total (Internal + External): 7,675 - $0.00 $0.00 



Your potential points from all Owner Id's is: 7,675


----------



## floyddl

pfrank4127 said:


> No It's a new system so you have to learn where the advantages are.



That's what I am here for, so ingenious people like you can tell me where the advantages are.  So far, for my particular situation, I don't see the advantages.  Granted it is very early after the announcement.  Having purchased to use my resort 3 out of 4 years, I am fine for those 3, but with II weeks now being snatched by Marriott for points weeks I am not seeing how I will find value in the new system.   For me, the best option will be to stay in th existing system and rent my week when I choose not to use it and then rent another week where I want to go.  The exchange system seems to be out of bounds.


----------



## Y-ASK

LAX Mom said:


> In the current economy what is Marriott thinking? They honestly think they can sell these points? No wonder Fletch and others left Marriott sales?


This I totally agree with this.  So Marriott, you're going to treat resale owners differently than developer owners and thus make everyone's resale values signficantly lower as a result?  Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!  Why would I ever buy developer knowing that if I ever need to sell, forgetaboutit...

Y-ASK


----------



## Frisbeeace

*My conclusions*

1. The old trade-for-points option is dead after devaluations (and the loss of AA)

3. The new points exchange system is good for owners of hot weeks who most likely will join it and have the alternative to convert them for points or occupy.

2. The new points exchange system does not work for owners of weak trading weeks like mine (Sabal Palms) who must forget about trading for more desirable Marriott weeks and should rely on II for external trades.

4. With both points systems useless, most Marriott weeks have become a typical timeshare to either occupy, trade with II or rent.

5. New resales should go down in price while developer sales should start to move and I hope to get rid of my 3 weeks asap.


----------



## Armada

According to MVCI.com, if you do not join the points program and deposit a week with Interval, the Marriott Exchange Priority(for other Marriott properties) continues. Previously, it was for three weeks, but the new MVCI website is silent on the length of time.

Also, if you are digging for information at MVCI.com, use the 'site map' after you log in.  The layout there will provide you more convenient access to the information regarding the points program.


----------



## haleakala20

*big advantage of points chart*

As an Asia-Pacific Club Owner I'm not so much surprised and think, I can live with the new OPTION, given from MVCI. 
The concepts are similar, the numbers and prices very different.

The swap between credit and purchase has alredy been given, when you look into the MR-points credit and compare it with the points needed to purchase back the same week.
That the chance of MVCI to get their share from unoriented owners.


The benefit of the new points chart list is, that someone at MVCI made a great job, to make all resorts and seasons and even individual weeks through the whole system compareable.
Now we all know, where there is the high and the low demand to weeks of MVCI. This information is very new and much more precise then the II demand listing. 

The points used for purchase canb be take with 1:1 to a US$ value and you will get the resale value of a rental week in average.

Thank you MVCI for that listing.


What I still don't understand, is, that the weeks with differnt purchase values do not have the same different linear credit value. Therefore I expect, the full list of credit values will show a linear measurement for the purchase-prices of weeks.

Lest take some more days to investigate. There has to be add'l information to make the individual decision to join that option or not.


----------



## floyddl

Frisbeeace said:


> 2. The new points exchange system does not work for owners of weak trading weeks like mine (Sabal Palms) who must forget about trading for more desirable Marriott weeks and should rely on II for external trades.



II for external trades will be a best option for many as the better Marriott weeks will be seized by Marriott for the points program.


----------



## gailo

*vs. Starwood*

 We do not own Starwood but I remember hearing about buying a resale resort then negotiating to include it if join or buy staroption from the developer later. Starwood owners can speak to this but I can see where future resales may be a tool for something like that. That said I plan to keep my two plat weeks (OP and FC) and use or rent.


----------



## pfrank4127

floyddl said:


> That's what I am here for, so ingenious people like you can tell me where the advantages are.  So far, for my particular situation, I don't see the advantages.  Granted it is very early after the announcement.  Having purchased to use my resort 3 out of 4 years, I am fine for those 3, but with II weeks now being snatched by Marriott for points weeks I am not seeing how I will find value in the new system.   For me, the best option will be to stay in th existing system and rent my week when I choose not to use it and then rent another week where I want to go.  The exchange system seems to be out of bounds.



I'm relatively new to the Marriott system so I did not learn all the ins and outs of the old system.  I have much more experience with the Disney system and this is somewhat similar.  I do like that I can now get two weeks of vacation on my points if I supplement  it with a cash reservation for the weekend nights.  This is something that I frequently do/did with Disney and felt that it maximized value.


----------



## Dean

wsrobinson said:


> I'm going into MY PAGE after logging in.  These are MY VALUES and I OWN a 2 BEDROOM Oceanside Platinum.  Below is from the site...
> 
> Eligible Inventories
> 
> 
> 
> Internal       Inventory Point Value Enrollment Fee
> There are no eligible inventories for enrollment.
> SurfWatch
> Floor Plan: 2BR + 2BA
> View Type: Oceanside/Gardenview
> Deeded Id: SF*5443*22*B 5,750 $0.00
> 
> SubTotal: 5,750 ✓Calculate
> 
> External       Inventory Point Value Enrollment Fee
> There are no eligible inventories for enrollment.
> Barony Beach Club
> Floor Plan: 2BR + 2BA
> View Type: Ocean Side View
> Deeded Id: BB*9313*46*B 1,925 $0.00
> 
> SubTotal: 1,925 ✓Calculate
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Total (Internal + External): 7,675 - $0.00 $0.00
> 
> 
> 
> Your potential points from all Owner Id's is: 7,675


I know, I get the higher numbers as well for SW.  But if you look at GO, BB & SW to reserve, you'll see they are all the same for the same view type except that Ocean Vista is less than OF but more than OS.  It doesn't make sense you'd get 20% more points that it costs for other points owners to reserve your week.  I'm guessing they actually loaded the 3 Br points values to the 2 BR grid.  I hope for both our sakes I'm wrong but that has to be the answer.  I don't see another situation where anyone is getting a premium like that on their points to reserve.  I come to 32K points with the presumed incorrect info, I'll be down to around 30K points on even years if/when they correct it and 4K less on odd years.


----------



## tombo

Y-ASK said:


> This I totally agree with this.  So Marriott, you're going to treat resale owners differently than developer owners and thus make everyone's resale values signficantly lower as a result?  Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!  Why would I ever buy developer knowing that if I ever need to sell, forgetaboutit...
> 
> Y-ASK



Which is exactly what i will bring up if I decide to sit down with a Marriott sales person to let them explain the new program and answer questions. I am going to mention possibly buying Marriott resale, let him/her explain all the disadvantages that come with buying resale, and let them tell me how resales will be virtually worthless since points have been launched. I will then ask them if they really expect any intelligent consumer to purchase a product that the salesman is telling them is worthless dollarwise as soon as they buy it? I will thank them for explaining to me that what they are trying to sell me for $25000 or more will be worthless if I ever want/need to sell it to someone else in the future. I should be at gifting fairly quickly.


----------



## Frisbeeace

tombo said:


> Which is exactly what i will bring up if I decide to sit down with a Marriott sales person to let them explain the new program and answer questions. I am going to mention possibly buying Marriott resale, let him/her explain all the disadvantages that come with buying resale, and let them tell me how resales will be virtually worthless since points have been launched. I will then ask them if they really expect any intelligent consumer to purchase a product that the salesman is telling them is worthless dollarwise as soon as they buy it? I will thank them for explaining to me that what they are trying to sell me something for $25000 will be worthless if I ever want/need to sell it to someone else in the future. I should be at giftng fairly quckly.



He will tell you that this system will hurt the secondary resale market but will strengthen Marriott's Resale operations through which you can sell your week at developer price less a 40% commission. For a $25,000 week, this means $15,000 for you instead of a fraction of that if you sold at Ebay or other means. Hopefully, this might be true.


----------



## Darlene

It looks like I get 1900 points for my fixed Marriott Monarch week, and it takes 5,000 points to book that same week.
Darlene


----------



## banquopack

*Point selling*

So how much can you get if you join the new program, then sell and transfer your points to another member?  

Better and easier than renting?


----------



## Asia2000

tombo said:


> Which is exactly what i will bring up if I decide to sit down with a Marriott sales person to let them explain the new program and answer questions. I am going to mention possibly buying Marriott resale, let him/her explain all the disadvantages that come with buying resale, and let them tell me how resales will be virtually worthless since points have been launched. I will then ask them if they really expect any intelligent consumer to purchase a product that the salesman is telling them is worthless dollarwise as soon as they buy it? I will thank them for explaining to me that what they are trying to sell me something for $25000 will be worthless if I ever want/need to sell it to someone else in the future. I should be at giftng fairly quckly.



Three questions:

1.  If you buy into the points program, what happens when you resell?  Does the points overlay transfer?  If so, wouldn't people just pay the current owner to enroll before doing the close on an e-bay purchase or redweek.com purchase?

2.  Once you join the new program and choose to stick with the "normal week usage", do you have to pay another fee to switch to points in year #2?  If you flip-flop every year, do you have to pay?

3.  When do points expire?  If it is two years, it will be very difficult to manage unless you vacation a lot of weeks every year.  Marriott will be counting on people wasting points through expiration or a weak conversion to MR points.


----------



## dioxide45

Can someone provide instruction for doing the "foux enrollment" to determine the value of the week you own?


----------



## jin

hipslo said:


> According to the materials on the website, inventory at sold out resorts can come from (i) weeks owners who convert, (ii) weeks owners who trade their units in for marriott rewards points, and (iii) deposits into II, both from weeks owners (may be wrong about this, language is unclear, have read conflicting reports) and from points owners.
> 
> I was also told over the phone today that inventory is not allocated between weeks and points, it is simply a first come/ first serve massive free for all at 12 months (or 13 months).
> 
> I am now hoping that resale prices of fixed weeks at the best resorts will fall.  Those would be great purchases for personal use (but not for trading).



Does this mean that with the Marriott Priority that you may see weeks in II at 12 or 13 mos out that were traded in from points owners? If so this could be a  good reason not to enroll.....


----------



## Rickh

*maintenance fees increase*

Please forgive me if this has been covered - I am trying to clarify my understanding of the maintenance fee increase for existing owners - some have suggested the new maintenance fee will be .40 per point, which is a huge increase relative to what we pay today (we own a 2 bedroom OV at original MOC).

I  online  chatted with Owner Services, and they suggested that maintenance fees will increase as per inflation and costs to run resort, but not just because a current owner joins the point program.

Does the .40 per point only apply to new purchases or am I missing something.

Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## hipslo

*13 Month Window in Points - Consecutive Reservations at Different Properties*



hipslo said:


> Points owners can do the same, and can do so in any daily increments that they desire.  Also, I believe the points inventory opens each tuesday for the following week, a couple of days earlier than the thurs or fri that weeks inventory opens.




One thing I havent been able to figure out - premiere and premiere plus points owners can make reservations 13 months in advance.  I wonder whether that means they could string together reservations of a couple of days (or more) at "cheap" properties before the desired "hot" week(s) as under the current 13 month system, to get a jump on others trying to reserve at 13 months, or whether a "reservation" would all have to be at the same property, to take advantage of 13 month rule under the points system.


----------



## Y-ASK

Frisbeeace said:


> He will tell you that this system will hurt the secondary resale market but will strengthen Marriott's Resale operations through which you can sell your week at developer price less a 40% commission. For a $25,000 week, this means $15,000 for you instead of a fraction of that if you sold at Ebay or other means. Hopefully, this might be true.


I heard within this thread and I think I read it online that the Marriott Resale program is dead.  Marriott stopped it like a month ago so there goes that argument.

Y-ASK


----------



## tombo

Frisbeeace said:


> He will tell you that this system will hurt the secondary resale market but will strengthen Marriott's Resale operations through which you can sell your week at developer price less a 40% commission. For a $25,000 week, this means $15,000 for you instead of a fraction of that if you sold at Ebay or other means. Hopefully, this might be true.



I will ask him why I would pay $25,000 hoping to get a $10,000 loss when i can buy a resale at the same resort for $1000 and sell it for zero for a total loss of $1000? I would still be $9000 ahead buying a resale with zero resale value, and that is if marriott can or will sell my developer week (which they won't do untilthey have sold all of their own inventory).


----------



## dioxide45

Rickh said:


> Please forgive me if this has been covered - I am trying to clarify my understanding of the maintenance fee increase for existing owners - some have suggested the new maintenance fee will be .40 per point, which is a huge increase relative to what we pay today (we own a 2 bedroom OV at original MOC).
> 
> I  online  chatted with Owner Services, and they suggested that maintenance fees will increase as per inflation and costs to run resort, but not just because a current owner joins the point program.
> 
> Does the .40 per point only apply to new purchases or am I missing something.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.



I think the new MF structure only applies to those new purchases buying in to the trust. For weeks owners, the new system is just an overlay system.


----------



## tombo

Y-ASK said:


> I heard within this thread and I think I read it online that the Marriott Resale program is dead.  Marriott stopped it like a month ago so there goes that argument.
> 
> Y-ASK



Even better reply to the salesman.


----------



## dioxide45

tombo said:


> Even better reply to the salesman.



I am sure it is only dead for weeks ownership. I would think they would replace it with some type of buyback system. They may make offers for prime weeks at sold out resorts in order to get hold of inventory. 

Though if it seems like they can take the prime deposits from II, then they don't even need to do that.

I read on the old thread that a salesperson told someone Marriott learned from the mistakes and fallout of other developers (ie *wood). They learned real well how to make it work for them.

It is important to note though that for each week they take from II they have to give something back. II is a week for week system. They can't just take a prime week. They may have to give two shoulder season weeks back. This may be good for those non enrolled weeks owners that trade through II for lower season.


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> It is not false. Now Marriott will give you less points for your deposited week than it will cost the exchanger to exchange for the week you deposited. If my week floats platinum and platinum season weeks range from 5000 points to 6000 points, then I can reserve a 6000 point week to use at my home resort. If Marriott gives me 5250 points when I deposit my week, then I will never be able to reserve a 6000 point week at any resort other than my own. In addition if the person exchanging for my home resort week that I would have used pays 6000 points for the priviledge while Marriott only gives me 5250 points, they are pocketing 750 points per owner. It is a rip off where marriott pays less points for deposited weeks than they charge to redeem them.



It is false.  Marriott also gives people MORE points than it takes to reserve in that previous season. It lets people reserve weeks for 4,500 points, 750 less than they gave.

So is Marriott ripping you off or are you ripping Marriott off?

Answer:  No one, they are equivalent.  The true platinum weeks now cost more than the tarnished platinum weeks.

This has ALWAYS been true, but is now transparent to everyone.  Ironically this is the "trade value grid" that everyone has been clamoring for


----------



## wsrobinson

Dean said:


> I know, I get the higher numbers as well for SW.  But if you look at GO, BB & SW to reserve, you'll see they are all the same for the same view type except that Ocean Vista is less than OF but more than OS.  It doesn't make sense you'd get 20% more points that it costs for other points owners to reserve your week.  I'm guessing they actually loaded the 3 Br points values to the 2 BR grid.  I hope for both our sakes I'm wrong but that has to be the answer.  I don't see another situation where anyone is getting a premium like that on their points to reserve.  I come to 32K points with the presumed incorrect info, I'll be down to around 30K points on even years if/when they correct it and 4K less on odd years.



I don't know where this will shakeout but...

                                GV               OS              OF

BB                         3725              4500          5400

GO                                             4500          5400

SW                        3725              4500          5000

These are for 2 bedrooms only.  You may be right. If so, it probably won't take them long to fix it.  Did you buy your weeks from the developer?  Maybe there are addl points if bought thru developer?


----------



## pfrank4127

dioxide45 said:


> Can someone provide instruction for doing the "foux enrollment" to determine the value of the week you own?



Log into your Marriott.com account.  Click on the link to learn more about points. Then click on the enroll now button.  Make sure you check the box saying you agree to the terms and then it should take you to the next page that shows resort values.


----------



## Y-ASK

tombo said:


> Which is exactly what i will bring up if I decide to sit down with a Marriott sales person to let them explain the new program and answer questions. I am going to mention possibly buying Marriott resale, let him/her explain all the disadvantages that come with buying resale, and let them tell me how resales will be virtually worthless since points have been launched. I will then ask them if they really expect any intelligent consumer to purchase a product that the salesman is telling them is worthless dollarwise as soon as they buy it? I will thank them for explaining to me that what they are trying to sell me for $25000 or more will be worthless if I ever want/need to sell it to someone else in the future. I should be at gifting fairly quickly.



Me too!  I check into Harbour Lakes on July 3rd.  Depending on what gifts they offer I will either present my strike three check list up front or during the presentation.

#1.  Resale owners pay higher fees to join the club.

#2.  Points purchasers will get stuck with a $2,000.00 transfer fee (maybe more) if they ever decide they need to sell their points.

#3.  Resale deeds, closed after 6/20/2010, would not be eligible to be added to the club.

Combine all of this together and resale values will drop signficantly over time. Thanks Marriott for treating resale owners/buyers like second class citizens.

Y-ASK

Where do you think all of the necessary maintenance fees are going to come from if there are no resale owners paying those fees?


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> I was also told over the phone today that inventory is not allocated between weeks and points, it is simply a first come/ first serve massive free for all at 12 months (or 13 months).



I think this is the key point to verify.  I don't know how they would manage their legal obligation to provide a week to owners if they did not keep a separate inventory.

If they do have a points inventory then the weeks inventory will dry up in II pretty quickly.  No developer deposits, no MR deposits, no points deposits, and pretty soon there will be very limited Marriott trades available through II.


----------



## Frisbeeace

tombo said:


> I will ask him why I would pay $25,000 hoping to get a $10,000 loss when i can buy a resale at the same resort for $1000 and sell it for zero for a total loss of $1000? I would still be $9000 ahead buying a resale with zero resale value, and that is if marriott can or will sell my developer week (which they won't do untilthey have sold all of their own inventory).



If the system is a success as they expect (which I seriously doubt), Marriott would start to sell weeks under the new points structure and would buy your week at a sold-out property for 60% of its developer market value. Then, owners willing to sell like me, will list their weeks with them and won't burn them at lower prices in the secondary market anymore. In the short term, my guess is that direct resale prices will remain low until Marriott starts to move inventory again and accepts new weeks for sale.


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> As is my hisorty, I never toss the baby out with the bath water. I always look at past history and compare what I've done with my weeks account, then compare what I could have done if points had been available. Here's my personal results.
> 
> *Ocean Pointe 3 bedroom silver season: 4,225 points*
> 
> We use the master suite and typically trade the studio. We've recieved at a minimum 1 bedroom exchanges and once a 2 bedroom exchange. All have been for Willow Ridge in Branson with the exception of Mountain Valley Lodge next week.
> 
> This was an easy calculation. We would recieve 4,225 points for our 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit. To researve the Nov. or Dec. weeks we've always used, it would take 5,225 points. We'd be short 1,000 points to reserve a smaller unit that we own. Needless to say, NONE of the exchanges we've made with our studio unit would be possible.
> 
> *Grand Chateau 3 bedroom platinum season 4,625 points:*
> 
> We've only owned for a couple of years. We've traded the Master Suite 2 bedroom portion for Waihoai 2 bedroom in March (5,875 points) and a Harbor Club at Harbor Town 2 bedroom unit in May (1,725 points). Totaly points would have been 7,600 points. Under the new system we'd have been 2975 points shy for making these exchanges.
> 
> The year previous we exchanged for a 2 bedroom Newport Coast Villa's March week (2,900 points) and a 1 bedroom Custom House May week (2,900 points). Total points for both exchanges 5,800 points. Again a deficit. This time 1,175 points
> 
> In short, the new system won't work for us in any way shape of form. Marriott gives to little for our weeks then charges to much in points for the exchanges. I have no intention of shelling out $695 to join a program that would provide historically less value than what I've recieved. I feel pretty safe in saying that we'll be sticking with the way things are with our ownership. To see a consitant deficit for every single year is both amazing and disheartening. I expected more from Marriott.


I see direct exchanges doing very well between us here  or exchanges with independent exchange companies as we still have that right.

The only people, who are going to do well, are the people who own many weeks that they bought from the Marriott direct because they will have the chance to reserve the very best weeks they like to have but they may not be able to rent them. I believe that I saw a warning somewhere so the best weeks are now going to be used for personal use mainly. There was a warning somewhere about abuse but I may not have understood it properly.  

I feel for the owners, who bought only one, or a few weeks as it will be much harder for them to stay at their own resorts in the season they bought and I feel bad too for the owners, who bought many weeks and paid developer prices because re-sale values are going to be very little for every one eventually. We now have the worst of both systems, I believe.

I have said many times that I do not like the way this industry is heading as each time, it's in the developer's favor and they are getting more control over what we bought.

On top of that, we will see big increases in maintenance fees too because timeshares are becoming more like hotels where people check in and out more frequently but here you have to deal with kitchens and washer and dryers too that will give more wear and tear because people are losing the feel of pride of ownership like timeshare people used to have when they owned a fixed week and unit at a particular resort. JMHO.

One good thing is that everyone can read all the documents before signing the dotted line and that we have some time to think it over and discuss it here. Marriott must hate this forum, if people happen to find us here during the rescission period of a new purchase by a prospective buyer. They wouldn't have had to worry if knowledgeable, seasoned timeshare owners were happy with the big change.


----------



## Luckybee

I just called owner services to get some info on why we might be interested(or not ) in the new system. About us :
1. We own 2 1 bdrm gold weeks. 
2. Since the Aruba Ocean Club opened we have only traded twice(and on both occasions on very short notice because of medical issues)
3. We always go near the end of our season(that is end of Nov beginning of Dec.)

My concerns when calling were :

question 1. What happens when we call 13 months out for the end of the season and nothing is available because of the new system with more people trying to book Aruba
question 2. If we were to choose points and had to cancel what happens

For question 1. The rep that their would be less availability to us but that we are "guaranteed" something within our season so they would have to find us 2weeks somewhere. 
for question 2. The rep stated that one must cancel 60 days out which would allow one to bank the points for 1 year. Within 60 days you would lose the right to use. (contra with I.I where we cancelled 15 days out on one occasion)

What was most interesting was that the rep after listening to our pattern of use stated" *This is just a 5th usage option that wouldnt be an advantage for you like many of our other owners. We expect only about 5% of our current owners to be interested in the new system"*

Im still not sure how they can guarantee to find us something within our season under the circumstances I've described. If the earlier weeks are fully booked(as they usually are already) it will be interesting to see what happens. I am so lamenting that we didnt pull the trigger on selling last 
year


----------



## IngridN

wuv pooh said:


> I think this is the key point to verify.  I don't know how they would manage their legal obligation to provide a week to owners if they did not keep a separate inventory.
> 
> If they do have a points inventory then the weeks inventory will dry up in II pretty quickly.  No developer deposits, no MR deposits, no points deposits, and pretty soon there will be very limited Marriott trades available through II.



I haven't been able to read the thread as I've been working all weekend and am just taking a quick break. I did call Marriott this morning: I was told that inventories would be totally separate. I asked the same question several ways and gave examples. My concern is that our Aruba Surf Club week is always booked to use. I am in the process of purchasing a resale week there and was concerned about the 'home resort' priority if I decided to join points (aside from the fact that currently, new resale weeks aren't eligible), was told that unless I gave up the week for points, absolutely nothing would change. Points inventory is garnered from people joining points and giving up their week for points to exchange elsewhere, people exchanging their week for MAR points and Marriott inventory. These were previously provided to II, they will now comprise the available inventory in the Marriott points exchange program.

Based on her comments, I would expect Marriott II inventory to drastically decrease. However, it appears that I will have no issue with booking at my home resort. Once the resale closes, I can call 13 months out. Interestingly, I urrently own Oceanside and it is not yet sold out so my booking to use availability would decrease because Marriott will allocate their unsold inventory to points. However, the one we're purchasing is Oceanfront which is sold out. In our scenario, she stated that an Oceanfront unit would be available to the points group only if an owner in the points program relinquished the weeks for points or if they relinquished for MAR points...we'll see. 

Talked to DH and we're still going to pull the trigger on the resale. Any comments as to how foolhardy we're being  .

Ingrid


----------



## Nickfromct

Well, I looked  over the materials I have one very basic issue here. My Aruba Surf Club Gold week gets me 3075 points. We used this week to do our summer vacation with. Under the new system there will be virtually no, what are in my estimation, decent resorts to go to without having to buy a fair amounts of points. To bad. We've traded into NCV several times before. No more I guess. I'll pass on the points system, unless I'm missing something.


----------



## Dean

wsrobinson said:


> I don't know where this will shakeout but...
> 
> GV               OS              OF
> 
> BB                         3725              4500          5400
> 
> GO                                             4500          5400
> 
> SW                        3725              4500          5000
> 
> These are for 2 bedrooms only.  You may be right. If so, it probably won't take them long to fix it.  Did you buy your weeks from the developer?  Maybe there are addl points if bought thru developer?


I have 5 Platinum HH weeks.  Two are GO OF, one is GO OS, one is SW GV and one is SW Ocean Vista.  Of those weeks, only the GV units was developer purchase.  Two of the GO weeks can also trade for MR points and I had assumed from that they'd come under like a developer resale but apparently not the way it's currently showing.  Not that it really matter since I have other resale weeks and those are the ones I want in the new system.


----------



## scrapngen

*Have I moved to the dark side??*

I believe that I've now joined the ranks of those who believe this new system will hurt almost *everyone* - except Marriott. 

Fletch and others basically said those w/premium weeks/HI prime weeks, etc would see value in the new system and like it. Maybe I was mistaken to believe I might be part of this group. My jumping would increase my trade ability -etc.  My other assumption was that most owners would blindly jump to points, (still believe this will happen w/good salesmen) and that this would probably affect those who did not jump negatively.  

Now I don't see that. While my points values are fairly high and I own more than one Plat. Plus week so am a multiple week owner - they certainly will not get me to similar Platinum/Platinum Plus resorts at a one-to-one ratio, much less give me more time - unless I trade down again. But it doesn't look like my Platinum Plus is enough to get to any other Platinum Plus - including my own resort!! I also can't exchange to things like good summer or ski weeks that are Platinum!! 

So as far as I can see in this system:  I don't even think I can get equal 1:1 trades!! This doesn't give much more value - really - to the owners of "more expensive" properties any more than it benefits the golds/plats of other resorts.
And it looks like that is true across the board for many/most people.

The ONLY people I see getting more value will be those who own enough multiple weeks to equal Premier Plus status. 12000 or more points. My take is that these people will have even more opportunity to gather up the prime weeks and shut out deeded owners of fewer weeks and home resort owners. 

*Can point reservations be rented????? * I haven't figured that out yet. But...Those of you who think more prime weeks will open up in a points system - *This system looks seriously flawed!!!  With points and weeks owners getting equal chance at a set amount of reservations, and II best deposited weeks going right back to points owners - I don't know that weeks owners who don't switch will still get what they did in the past - and I also don't think it will be better for the 1 - 2 week owners to move to points. They still won't get what they occasionally got in the past!!! *

As a fixed week owner who bought to use, I think I'll do fine staying out of the overlay...but everyone else will lose out - even at their home resort - , and none of us will be able to trade well in II. Since I'm a new owner, have no way to judge this aspect. 

What's really sad is that we are a prime candidate to buy more Marriott weeks and almost bought a third week right from the start. Luckily, our heads said let's try it out and do more research. A resale float week now needs time to see how this new system plays out for those who don't convert, and buying from the developer now means points - the only way points looks good to me is to hit that magical 12,000 - and that's a lot of money. 

And still, it would seem that the minute we tried to use points to - say book a different start/end  date to our fixed weeks, we'd actually potentially lose the weeks altogether (that we payed a premium price for), because the fixed weeks enter the system as soon as you choose to use points, and then the reservation gets looked at. Those fixed dates will immediately pass on to someone else who already has THEIR request in - not you!!    _*Can anyone tell me otherwise?*_ Those documents spell this out pretty clearly (as I quoted from the exchange document, and as others have quoted the levels of Premier/Premier Plus/ etc.)

Marriott, you seem to no longer value the current owners as a group to sell more to - as far as I can tell. Are you only now interested in finding a different group to sell to? Who are they?? Do they have any disposable income to share with you in this economy as they potentially see the current owners unhappy and getting more so as this program rolls out? Maybe you don't care and just need quick cash this year??


----------



## wsrobinson

Dean said:


> I have 5 Platinum HH weeks.  Two are GO OF, one is GO OS, one is SW GV and one is SW Ocean Vista.  Of those weeks, only the GV units was developer purchase.  Two of the GO weeks can also trade for MR points and I had assumed from that they'd come under like a developer resale but apparently not the way it's currently showing.  Not that it really matter since I have other resale weeks and those are the ones I want in the new system.



So, does the SW GV have a higher point value than the resale weeks or is it in line with them.  Just curious if Marriott would try to further enhance developer purchases in their system?


----------



## IngridN

I guess those TUGGERS urging you to buy to use were right...Assuming inventory is truly separate, we'll be OK with our Aruba week (soon to be weeks) as we only use. The other 3 weeks which are used to trade (SR used exclusively to trade), we'll be shafted under the points program unless we combine or borrow form previous or future year. 

At first I thought this points stuff was pretty good. As I think it through on the 'cost' of exchanging into othe Marriotts (although I really need to get back to work!) we'll probably pass and continue with II. There are lots of other nice resorts out there and my Marriott week should be a tiger trader, no?

Ingrid


----------



## winger

aka Julie said:


> When I go thru the faux enrollment process this what they show for enrollment fees for me:
> 
> 2 Barony silver weeks (developer bought) -- $695
> 1 Shadow Ridge platimum week (resale bought) -- $1495
> Total -- $2190
> 
> So unless the website is wrong, it's not capped at $1995.  I'm not going to bother calling, since I don't think we'll be enrolling.


Website explicitly says if you are converting both developer and resale weeks, you need to call to convert.


----------



## wuv pooh

IngridN said:


> I haven't been able to read the thread as I've been working all weekend and am just taking a quick break. I did call Marriott this morning: I was told that inventories would be totally separate. I asked the same question several ways and gave examples. My concern is that our Aruba Surf Club week is always booked to use. I am in the process of purchasing a resale week there and was concerned about the 'home resort' priority if I decided to join points (aside from the fact that currently, new resale weeks aren't eligible), was told that unless I gave up the week for points, absolutely nothing would change. Points inventory is garnered from people joining points and giving up their week for points to exchange elsewhere, people exchanging their week for MAR points and Marriott inventory.
> 
> Based on her comments, I would expect Marriott II inventory to drastically decrease. However, it appears that I will have no issue with booking at my home resort. Once the resale closes, I can call 13 months out. Interestingly, I urrently own Oceanside and it is not yet sold out so my booking to use availability would decrease because Marriott will allocate their unsold inventory to points. However, the one we're purchasing is Oceanfront which is sold out. In our scenario, she stated that an Oceanfront unit would be available to the points group only if an owner in the points program relinquished the weeks for points or if they relinquished for MAR points...we'll see.
> 
> Talked to DH and we're still going to pull the trigger on the resale. Any comments as to how foolhardy we're being  .
> 
> Ingrid



That would make sense to me.  I am essentially offered to join the system for free today - $695 vs. 800 points is a wash to me.  I am concerned about the future.  

If you do not join the new system:

1. You will not have access to any new resorts.
2. You will not have the access to the flexibility which creates the value under the new system, ie trading days, sizes, or seasons.
3. You may/may not be offered to join in the future at some price.

I think it was a pretty slick move to eliminate uptrades.  

II uptrades will dry up because people with high value weeks will join the new system and remove their weeks.

II uptrades will dry up because all develper and MR points inventory will be removed.

Points uptrades are eliminated by the new point structure.

I see only two options:

1. Don't join and use your weeks.  Or be happy with non Marriott trades through II.

2. Join for free and keep your flexibility.  The real value of the new system will be using Sun-Thur in shoulder season until they rebalance the points.  There will also most likely be something similar to flexchange added to soak up points that are expiring as empty units.

I think it is a slam dunk that most people with Platinum weeks will convert to keep their options open.

Need to talk to a few more people, but that is my initial take.


----------



## Dean

wsrobinson said:


> So, does the SW GV have a higher point value than the resale weeks or is it in line with them.  Just curious if Marriott would try to further enhance developer purchases in their system?


I haven't seen any indication of differences in points between resale and retail, just the conversion fee.


----------



## Venter

scrapngen said:


> This is just a very quick look, but here's what I see so far:
> 
> Waiohai fixed 51 island view:    4225 points
> Waiohai fixed 52 island view:    5175 points
> Total 9400 pts which I guess would fit the Premier for 13 month  reservations of 7 or more days.
> 
> Then I was able to download the Points-charts.pdf file - looked at how many points those same weeks with same view would cost someone to reserve with points for 2011, 2012. Very disturbing as the answer is 5075 and 5550 points respectively. So my point value is less than the point chart??
> So why again would I want to pay extra when my points won't even be enough to get the same 14 days??? At first view this doesn't look good for my prime HI fixed weeks....:annoyed:
> 
> Just wanted to some specific info out there for you folks to compile. Will continue to investigate...



My geuss is that if you own these weeks you just go ahead and book them as this will be within your usage rights.  However if you want points to go elsewhere then you will get the assigned points.  It will therefore be a it silly to get points and then book your weeks you already own.


----------



## Dean

scrapngen said:


> I believe that I've now joined the ranks of those who believe this new system will hurt almost *everyone* - except Marriott.
> 
> Fletch and others basically said those w/premium weeks/HI prime weeks, etc would see value in the new system and like it. Maybe I was mistaken to believe I might be part of this group. My jumping would increase my trade ability -etc.  My other assumption was that most owners would blindly jump to points, (still believe this will happen w/good salesmen) and that this would probably affect those who did not jump negatively.
> 
> Now I don't see that. While my points values are fairly high and I own more than one Plat. Plus week so am a multiple week owner - they certainly will not get me to similar Platinum/Platinum Plus resorts at a one-to-one ratio, much less give me more time - unless I trade down again. But it doesn't look like my Platinum Plus is enough to get to any other Platinum Plus - including my own resort!! I also can't exchange to things like good summer or ski weeks that are Platinum!!
> 
> So as far as I can see in this system:  I don't even think I can get equal 1:1 trades!! This doesn't give much more value - really - to the owners of "more expensive" properties any more than it benefits the golds/plats of other resorts.
> And it looks like that is true across the board for many/most people.
> 
> The ONLY people I see getting more value will be those who own enough multiple weeks to equal Premier Plus status. 12000 or more points. My take is that these people will have even more opportunity to gather up the prime weeks and shut out deeded owners of fewer weeks and home resort owners.
> 
> *Can point reservations be rented????? * I haven't figured that out yet. But...Those of you who think more prime weeks will open up in a points system - *This system looks seriously flawed!!!  With points and weeks owners getting equal chance at a set amount of reservations, and II best deposited weeks going right back to points owners - I don't know that weeks owners who don't switch will still get what they did in the past - and I also don't think it will be better for the 1 - 2 week owners to move to points. They still won't get what they occasionally got in the past!!! *
> 
> As a fixed week owner who bought to use, I think I'll do fine staying out of the overlay...but everyone else will lose out - even at their home resort - , and none of us will be able to trade well in II. Since I'm a new owner, have no way to judge this aspect.
> 
> What's really sad is that we are a prime candidate to buy more Marriott weeks and almost bought a third week right from the start. Luckily, our heads said let's try it out and do more research. A resale float week now needs time to see how this new system plays out for those who don't convert, and buying from the developer now means points - the only way points looks good to me is to hit that magical 12,000 - and that's a lot of money.
> 
> And still, it would seem that the minute we tried to use points to - say book a different start/end  date to our fixed weeks, we'd actually potentially lose the weeks altogether (that we payed a premium price for), because the fixed weeks enter the system as soon as you choose to use points, and then the reservation gets looked at. Those fixed dates will immediately pass on to someone else who already has THEIR request in - not you!!    _*Can anyone tell me otherwise?*_ Those documents spell this out pretty clearly (as I quoted from the exchange document, and as others have quoted the levels of Premier/Premier Plus/ etc.)
> 
> Marriott, you seem to no longer value the current owners as a group to sell more to - as far as I can tell. Are you only now interested in finding a different group to sell to? Who are they?? Do they have any disposable income to share with you in this economy as they potentially see the current owners unhappy and getting more so as this program rolls out? Maybe you don't care and just need quick cash this year??


I'm seeing 13K to get to Premier Plus level.


----------



## scrapngen

iconnections said:


> I see direct exchanges doing very well between us here  or exchanges with independent exchange companies as we still have that right.
> 
> The only people, who are going to do well, are the people who own many weeks that they bought from the Marriott direct because they will have the chance to reserve the very best weeks they like to have but they may not be able to rent them. I believe that I saw a warning somewhere so the best weeks are now going to be used for personal use mainly. There was a warning somewhere about abuse but I may not have understood it properly.
> 
> I feel for the owners, who bought only one, or a few weeks as it will be much harder for them to stay at their own resorts in the season they bought and I feel bad too for the owners, who bought many weeks and paid developer prices because re-sale values are going to be very little for every one eventually. We now have the worst of both systems, I believe.
> 
> I have said many times that I do not like the way this industry is heading as each time, it's in the developer's favor and they are getting more control over what we bought.
> 
> On top of that, we will see big increases in maintenance fees too because timeshares are becoming more like hotels where people check in and out more frequently but here you have to deal with kitchens and washer and dryers too that will give more wear and tear because people are losing the feel of pride of ownership like timeshare people used to have when they owned a fixed week and unit at a particular resort. JMHO.
> 
> One good thing is that everyone can read all the documents before signing the dotted line and that we have some time to think it over and discuss it here. Marriott must hate this forum, if people happen to find us here during the rescission period of a new purchase by a prospective buyer. They wouldn't have had to worry if knowledgeable, seasoned timeshare owners were happy with the big change.



I think you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here. I see other venues for trading becoming much more popular (at least among those who don't believe this will be as great a system as salepeople will say)  as owners decide not to allow their inventory to be swallowed up into II to go to the points requests. (While there have been some phone calls where Marriott people are assuring us that inventories will be kept separate, until I see it in writing, I am more likely to look at the Starwood dealing with II as an example of things to come...)

I will remain happy (I hope) using my TS as planned. And be unhappy to forego increasing our stays with new purchases until the dust settles...


----------



## IngridN

wuv pooh said:


> I think it is a slam dunk that most people with Platinum weeks will convert to keep their options open.
> 
> Need to talk to a few more people, but that is my initial take.



It's OK to convert, but you don't have to use the points. That's where my issue arises. Some of my weeks are used exclusively to exchange. I looked at a couple of scenarios, and no way, the 'cost' in points is too high. I will need to combine a couple of weeks or borrow points from prior or future year. Joining the points program also allows me to continue as is. I can still deposit into II with Marriott as my liaison with II. At first she told me that I had to call to make exchanges, similar to Hilton in RCI. Told her that was a deal breaker as I want the ability to go online and at all hours of the day or night and look at availability. She then went to check on this and told me that I could still continue to do so...hmmmmm, really?

Bottom line, we're waiting it out until the answers are clear. I may continue with II...there are other resorts out there.

Ingrid


----------



## bw3

*Marriott points and the Royal Scam*

Only an idiot would sign up for this program.  The bid-ask spread is astronomical (4%-20%).  And we thought Wall Street was evil.  After looking at the Grande Ocean spread, I wonder how to contact all owners and alert them to this scam.  I guess we just have to fire Marriott.  They are that dense.


----------



## scrapngen

wuv pooh said:


> That would make sense to me.  I am essentially offered to join the system for free today - $695 vs. 800 points is a wash to me.  I am concerned about the future.
> 
> If you do not join the new system:
> 
> 1. You will not have access to any new resorts.
> 2. You will not have the access to the flexibility which creates the value under the new system, ie trading days, sizes, or seasons.
> 3. You may/may not be offered to join in the future at some price.
> 
> I think it was a pretty slick move to eliminate uptrades.
> 
> II uptrades will dry up because people with high value weeks will join the new system and remove their weeks.
> 
> II uptrades will dry up because all develper and MR points inventory will be removed.
> 
> Points uptrades are eliminated by the new point structure.
> 
> I see only two options:
> 
> 1. Don't join and use your weeks.  Or be happy with non Marriott trades through II.
> 
> 2. Join for free and keep your flexibility.  The real value of the new system will be using Sun-Thur in shoulder season until they rebalance the points.  There will also most likely be something similar to flexchange added to soak up points that are expiring as empty units.I think it is a slam dunk that most people with Platinum weeks will convert to keep their options open.
> 
> Need to talk to a few more people, but that is my initial take.



If it was join for free to keep the flexibility - I wouldn't balk so much, but here's what I see. A $695 cost to join that is a wash with the 8000 bonus points (except they have to be used in the first year)

But it will also cost $165 or more *per year*. You didn't add this into your equation. It may or may not be a wash depending on what additional fees you currently spend - PER YEAR. So it may be a wash for some if they always are locking-off, etc., but for others, it is locking yourself into another yearly fee. (small, but not insignificant if you are not currently paying it)

Not to mention that it can change anytime! fees/point values/etc.  The way I see it EVERYTHING in the new system is up to Marriott to change/take away/increase at will. That may or may not benefit you, but certainly doesn't come free.


----------



## ACE1

Just checked on our 2 bdrm. Platinum at MCV now worth 2950 points but if I want to reserve my 2 bdrm. during Plat. season it is 4175.  Big difference, I can barely get a 1 bdrm. now!


----------



## Numismatist

Is this true?:

OTHER than the $595 to join, if I NEVER choose to exchange my deeded week for points each year, have I lost anything?


----------



## dougp26364

GregT said:


> One other thing -- I bet their is a profit component in the MFs.  $400 for 1,000 points?  That's a Hawaii level for MFs -- wow!!



This would put the MF's on our two units at $3,540. Presently the total for those two units are $2,841. All I can say is I'm glad I purchased our weeks long before this new program rolled out. That's a 20% increase in MF's and, those points aren't even enough to reserve the weeks we typically use. The MF's for the points required for the weeks we typically reserve at our home resorts would be a whopping $4,450 or *63% higher *than what we currently pay.  

All I can say is what a racket Marriott has cooked up for it's existing and new owners.


----------



## wuv pooh

scrapngen said:


> I believe that I've now joined the ranks of those who believe this new system will hurt almost *everyone* - except Marriott.
> 
> _*Can anyone tell me otherwise?*_



Scrapgen, you are pretty much the biggest winner of anyone under the new system.

Join the system.  If you want to stay in your fixed weeks then use them as planned - simple.  If you had floating weeks, you would have a potential issue, but fixed weeks are guaranteed.

If you want to trade - multiple opportunities.  You are no longer forced to trade down via II or rent your week and hope for the best.

You can spend 10 nights in the summer in Newport coast.  Go to San Diego for the weekend and spend 10 nights Sun-Thur and still have points left over.

You can spend a week at Grande Ocean Ocean Side and have points left over- a comparable trade or spend a few more points or go 6 days Ocean Front - a great trade.

You can spend TWO weeks in Orlando or Williamsburg

etc., etc.

It is a great program for people who have spent big bucks with Marriott.


----------



## timeos2

*You absolutely get what you own*



tombo said:


> If you get 2550 annual points for your deposited week, and they charge another points owner 3000 points to exchange for your week you deposited, then you at 2550 points are not getting what your week is worth, or what Marriott charges others. That is a benefit for Marriott and a ripoff for all points owners.
> 
> This is a bad deal for you and everyone when marriott gives the owner less annual points than they charge another owner to stay in the identical week. That is not counting the fact that they are killing resale values by charging $2000 tranfer fees and threatening the possibility of not ever allowing resales to ever become points in the future. They also are claiming access to all inventory deposited with II, whether it was deposited by a weeks owner or a points owner, which in the long run will kill your trading power with II and will immediatelly reduce prime inventory that Marriott siphons off of what was deposited in II by weeks owners to use for it's internal points exchange program. This is just what we know from the inital launch, I fee lsure many more things will come to light as the months/years pass.



You do understand that under the new system, as in any points system, the range of weeks covered by a deeded ownership include some that will carry high point values - holidays, summer weeks - and some lower but still in that season as originally outlined. So while your deed has the right to reserve one of the higher point value weeks you cannot and do not get that value every year. Instead they take the TOTAL points generated for all weeks in that season, divide by the total use periods & the resulting average per week is what you receive. So you are getting a fair distribution of point value covering your true share based on the week / season purchased. To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).  

Once you step outside your home resort you do need to pay the true rate. You can easily do that by pooling, borrowing, renting or just owning more points than your original deed entitled you to.  Now by carefully spreading those points through all the process and all the options it should be possible to get the exact use you want at various resorts and maximize the value of what you own.  That is what we have found with other points based exchanges and no reason to think Marriott would work any differently. 

You are getting a fair shake. The days of playing the system for free upgrades goes away. A known value system with hopefully better access to desired times (as owners are more careful with what they spend their limited points for rather than grabbing the best and biggest even just to trade) is what a good points system buys you. It does cost more than the old place & hope weeks type trades but is far easier to utilize and understand for most buyers. More like hotel reservations.


----------



## Stefa

ACE1 said:


> Just checked on our 2 bdrm. Platinum at MCV now worth 2950 points but if I want to reserve my 2 bdrm. during Plat. season it is 4175.  Big difference, I can barely get a 1 bdrm. now!



You can still reserve your 2BR if you join the points system.   If you want to stay at your home resort you just don't convert to points that year.


----------



## pacheco18

bw3 said:


> Only an idiot would sign up for this program.



Absolutely right.  It is a contract that guarantees value to Marriott and guarantees nothing to point owners.  Your points can (and will) be devalued as Marriott sees fit and you will be forced to purchase more points to get the trades you want.  Simply from a legal perspective, it is insane!  You do not (knowingly) enter into a contract that is one sided.


----------



## scrapngen

Numismatist said:


> Is this true?:
> 
> OTHER than the $595 to join, if I NEVER choose to exchange my deeded week for points each year, have I lost anything?



No, it is NOT true.

You will lose a yearly fee ($165 or more) for being in the new point system even if you choose not to exchange.


----------



## wuv pooh

scrapngen said:


> But it will also cost $165 or more *per year*. You didn't add this into your equation. It may or may not be a wash depending on what additional fees you currently spend - PER YEAR. So it may be a wash for some if they always are locking-off, etc., but for others, it is locking yourself into another yearly fee. (small, but not insignificant if you are not currently paying it)



True.  If you never trade then it is an additional cost, but you can avoid that by just using anyway.  if you want to exchange, by the time I pay II $80 to join, plus $75 to lock off, plus $29 to move my reservation, Plus $109 to make a trade etc. it comes off cheaper to start. Whether they increase faster than the current system is unknown.


----------



## taffy19

larue said:


> Owner services told me that, as a resale owner, I would be allowed to trade for Marriott Reward Points if I enroll in the new system.


It's in black and white somewhere.


----------



## pfrank4127

timeos2 said:


> You do understand that under the new system, as in any points system, the range of weeks covered by a deeded ownership include some that will carry high point values - holidays, summer weeks - and some lower but still in that season as originally outlined. So while your deed has the right to reserve one of the higher point value weeks you cannot and do not get that value every year. Instead they take the TOTAL points generated for all weeks in that season, divide by the total use periods & the resulting average per week is what you receive. So you are getting a fair distribution of point value covering your true share based on the week / season purchased. To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).
> 
> Once you step outside your home resort you do need to pay the true rate. You can easily do that by pooling, borrowing, renting or just owning more points than your original deed entitled you to.  Now by carefully spreading those points through all the process and all the options it should be possible to get the exact use you want at various resorts and maximize the value of what you own.  That is what we have found with other points based exchanges and no reason to think Marriott would work any differently.
> 
> You are getting a fair shake. The days of playing the system for free upgrades goes away. A known value system with hopefully better access to desired times (as owners are more careful with what they spend their limited points for rather than grabbing the best and biggest even just to trade) is what a good points system buys you. It does cost more than the old place & hope weeks type trades but is far easier to utilize and understand for most buyers. More like hotel reservations.



Excellent summary!  Thanks


----------



## timeos2

*Promises promises*



SueDonJ said:


> Perry, I might be interested if you will have access to official Marriott info, as well as sanctions from Marriott to disseminate whatever info you'll be offering AND a guarantee that what you're offering can be considered official.  ???  But if not, won't your webinar info be worth as much as every other bit of unofficial info?



Be very careful about anything that gets offered. Back in the hey day there were offers of papers & detailed analysis of why there were great deals & profits to be made in condo hotels (or maybe it was vacation destination clubs - I forget now) and even renting the colossal flop Tower of Terror as a business that never came to be (plenty had said they signed on but nothing ever got sent out).  This sounds very familiar.   Hopefully no money is involved.


----------



## UK Fan

Rickh said:


> Please forgive me if this has been covered - I am trying to clarify my understanding of the maintenance fee increase for existing owners - some have suggested the new maintenance fee will be .40 per point, which is a huge increase relative to what we pay today (we own a 2 bedroom OV at original MOC).
> 
> I  online  chatted with Owner Services, and they suggested that maintenance fees will increase as per inflation and costs to run resort, but not just because a current owner joins the point program.
> 
> Does the .40 per point only apply to new purchases or am I missing something.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.



As I understand it, the 0.40/per point applies to new point sales.


----------



## IngridN

Numismatist said:


> Is this true?:
> 
> OTHER than the $595 to join, if I NEVER choose to exchange my deeded week for points each year, have I lost anything?



That's the answer I'm getting, but I'm leary.

Ingrid


----------



## IngridN

scrapngen said:


> No, it is NOT true.
> 
> You will lose a yearly fee ($165 or more) for being in the new point system even if you choose not to exchange.



Not necessarily. If you chose to join points, but continue to deposit in II, the only fee will be if you choose a non-Marriott property. If it's a Marriott property, there is no exchange fee. Also, you will not have the cost of the yearly II membership fee.

Ingrid


----------



## pfrank4127

IngridN said:


> That's the answer I'm getting, but I'm leary.
> 
> Ingrid



You still have to pay the yearly club fee $169 for 1 week.

What are Club Dues?

Once you enroll, reservation and usage fees such as locking off, membership with Interval International and trading for Marriott Rewards points will be consolidated into one annual, convenient fee called Club Dues. Club Dues are initially set at $165 if you own or have enrolled up to 6,499 Vacation Club Points. Club Dues are initially set at $199 if you own or have enrolled 6,500 or more Vacation Club Points.


----------



## UK Fan

wuv pooh said:


> That would make sense to me.  I am essentially offered to join the system for free today - $695 vs. 800 points is a wash to me.  I am concerned about the future.
> 
> If you do not join the new system:
> 
> 1. You will not have access to any new resorts.
> 2. You will not have the access to the flexibility which creates the value under the new system, ie trading days, sizes, or seasons.
> 3. You may/may not be offered to join in the future at some price.
> 
> I think it was a pretty slick move to eliminate uptrades.
> 
> II uptrades will dry up because people with high value weeks will join the new system and remove their weeks.
> 
> II uptrades will dry up because all develper and MR points inventory will be removed.
> 
> Points uptrades are eliminated by the new point structure.
> 
> I see only two options:
> 
> 1. Don't join and use your weeks.  Or be happy with non Marriott trades through II.
> 
> 2. Join for free and keep your flexibility.  The real value of the new system will be using Sun-Thur in shoulder season until they rebalance the points.  There will also most likely be something similar to flexchange added to soak up points that are expiring as empty units.
> 
> I think it is a slam dunk that most people with Platinum weeks will convert to keep their options open.
> 
> Need to talk to a few more people, but that is my initial take.



I know it's early, but my thoughts now are not to join.  I own a Platinum week at OceanWatch and will probably either use my week or use some other method to trade....right now this doesn't appeal to me at all.


----------



## winger

I did a quick, informal, unsolicited walkthrough with a sales rep at a local Marriott resort today. 

One major concern I brought up was that my Platinum Manor Club 'redeems' for 2375 points, which seems VERY low compared to places I have exchanged into the past few years (like Newport Coast, where a comparable Platinum week requires 4725 points, nearly DOUBLE my Manor Club's points).

The way it was explained to me is IF I wanted to take my Platinum Manor Club week and request a straight 7-night exchange to another Marriott resort, I do NOT even have to 'redeem' it for my 2375 points (*basically, the points chart is meaninless...now how would I have figured that out by myself?* ); rather, I would simply inform my VOA that I wanted to request an exchange of my Manor week for say a Newport Coast week.  The VOA would then process the exchange request, similar to what II does now.   *I asked for the specific language in some document that specifies this,,,he could not provide it, but will be getting back to me in a few days.* -> The only time/reason I would bank my week for the 2375 points is if I were wanting to make use of the various 'enhancements' of the new program, such as reserve a Fri-Mon stay... 

One more thing - rep says basically when a member going forward deposits a specific MVCI week to II to request an exchange to say a Hyatt, Marriott has the option of giving II *another* week. I double checked this by asking him again and the rep confirmed.

*Costs and purchase bonus:*

Cost to purchase is $9.20/point (normal price is $10/pt), and annual maintenance fee for the points is $0.40/point, subject to change.

There are one-time bonus points offered for enrollment and purchase of additional points - I forget the exact # but it was about 1500pts purchased gets you a one-time bonus of 1600-1800 pts.

That was all the time the rep had for me LOL.  I guess I just sounded plain too skeptical and he had a client waiting.


----------



## dougp26364

IngridN said:


> Not necessarily. If you chose to join points, but continue to deposit in II, the only fee will be if you choose a non-Marriott property. If it's a Marriott property, there is no exchange fee. Also, you will not have the cost of the yearly II membership fee.
> 
> Ingrid



I think I'll keep my $89 membership fee and pay the exchange fee's for any exchanges I might do, just so I can say I never signed anything with Marriott when it comes to this new program. There's to much small print for me to feel comfortable signing any form with them now that I've seen the program. 

For the most part, we exchange our lock-out units. Total cost will be $208 for the exchanges if they're Marriott to Marriott or $298 if they're Marriott to non-Marriott exchanges plus the Interval membership of $89/year. The savings if we went with Marriott's corporate account would be $222 but, since I own non-Marriott resorts that I don't intend on getting rid of now that I've seen Marriott's program, the savings to me would only potentially be $133 and could be as low as $43 if we can still trade Marriott to Marriott. That's not enough money to get me off the couch and certainly not enough to get me to shell our almost $700 in upfront fee's to join.

Considering that this is for two exchanges per year, those that only make one exchange per year could possibly lose money on the deal.


----------



## IngridN

pfrank4127 said:


> You still have to pay the yearly club fee $169 for 1 week.
> 
> What are Club Dues?
> 
> Once you enroll, reservation and usage fees such as locking off, membership with Interval International and trading for Marriott Rewards points will be consolidated into one annual, convenient fee called Club Dues. Club Dues are initially set at $165 if you own or have enrolled up to 6,499 Vacation Club Points. Club Dues are initially set at $199 if you own or have enrolled 6,500 or more Vacation Club Points.



Yes, in our situation, we'd save money:

$199 dues

savings: $104 to convert to MAR points; $75 lock off fee; $109 x 2 exchange fees + whatever we decide to do with the Grand Chateau week that year. This is the only advantage I can see for me to join points.

The only way you'd lose is if you always book your week to use.

Ingrid


----------



## floyddl

Stefa said:


> You can still reserve your 2BR if you join the points system.   If you want to stay at your home resort you just don't convert to points that year.



Is that right? I thought you convert to points you have to reserve your week with points every year.


----------



## scrapngen

wuv pooh said:


> Scrapgen, you are pretty much the biggest winner of anyone under the new system.
> 
> Join the system.  If you want to stay in your fixed weeks then use them as planned - simple.  If you had floating weeks, you would have a potential issue, but fixed weeks are guaranteed.
> 
> If you want to trade - multiple opportunities.  You are no longer forced to trade down via II or rent your week and hope for the best.
> 
> You can spend 10 nights in the summer in Newport coast.  Go to San Diego for the weekend and spend 10 nights Sun-Thur and still have points left over.
> 
> You can spend a week at Grande Ocean Ocean Side and have points left over- a comparable trade or spend a few more points or go 6 days Ocean Front - a great trade.
> 
> You can spend TWO weeks in Orlando or Williamsburg
> 
> etc., etc.
> 
> It is a great program for people who have spent big bucks with Marriott.



Not really: let's look at Newport Coast: MF's 1100-1200? Waiohai MF's 1475

My Christmas Waiohai 4225 points does *not *get me Christmas NCV at 4725 points. 
My New Year's week 5175 *WILL* get me New Year's NCV 4950

All summer weeks at NCV are MORE than my allotted Christmas week Waiohai!
June 24-June 30    4725
July 1-7                5675  (understandable 4th July week - won't ever  actually get this with points unless you have Premier Plus is my guess)
July 8-Aug 11        4725

So my Christmas week pulls less than any summer week (!) at both Waiohai and NCV
And my New Year's week will possibly give me an extra day or two in the summer. Whoopie!! 
Again, I don't see this gaining anything over the current extra I could get trading with an AC. And I have far less chance of trades to other HI resorts for equal 2 bedroom as I see it, as they are valued higher (to be fair, they pay more in MF's, I believe)

If I'm one of the biggest winners (which I still disagree with - as I think the only winners will be Premier Plus at 13000 points or more) I'm not looking that great. IMHO I should be able to get two weeks in Orlando right now with an AC for just one of my weeks (per your other example). So, again, I'm not seeing better benefits, and if I'm in the best position, then the system must be REALLY bad for everyone else. 

Any flexibility comes at a great loss of point value - so I wouldn't give up a few days just to have a different start day in the week. I'd rather get my current value out of my MF's, not lose it!! If I felt that that additional $169 allowed me to change the start days at my home resort a bit or trade to other prime weeks at my home resort, it would be worth it to me. As it is, that doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## IngridN

dougp26364 said:


> I think I'll keep my $89 membership fee and pay the exchange fee's for any exchanges I might do, just so I can say I never signed anything with Marriott when it comes to this new program. There's to much small print for me to feel comfortable signing any form with them now that I've seen the program.
> 
> For the most part, we exchange our lock-out units. Total cost will be $208 for the exchanges if they're Marriott to Marriott or $298 if they're Marriott to non-Marriott exchanges plus the Interval membership of $89/year. The savings if we went with Marriott's corporate account would be $222 but, since I own non-Marriott resorts that I don't intend on getting rid of now that I've seen Marriott's program, the savings to me would only potentially be $133 and could be as low as $43 if we can still trade Marriott to Marriott. That's not enough money to get me off the couch and certainly not enough to get me to shell our almost $700 in upfront fee's to join.
> 
> Considering that this is for two exchanges per year, those that only make one exchange per year could possibly lose money on the deal.



I agree. At this point I am very uncomfortable with the program and will gladly pay the extra $100s.

Ingrid


----------



## UK Fan

The Marriott site indicated that I would get 3,225 points for my OceanWatch Platinum Gardenview.  Does anyone else have any MOW examples?

Thanks.


----------



## josh1231

timeos2 said:


> To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).  .



This is true, however you do get charged the "outside" rate for properties you're exchanging into though. 

The only people I can really see benefiting from this new system is people who did not have lock-offs and owned at resorts with really high points value, and did not need to stay in two bedroom resorts. For my Shadow Ridge gold, the new system is far inferior than the current Interval Exchange. Under the old, I could get a week in a 2-bedroom and a week in a 1-bedroom at some pretty good places, off season (I do realize I can still do the interval exchanges, I'm just working under the assumption that the quality of exchanges is going to go down drastically under the new system). 

With the new system, it doesn't have enough points to be able to do this even during the off season. As people switch to points, the interval trading will be less and less, therefore points will more than likely be about the only way to get a resort you want. 

The other negative for me with this is that resale values are going to be nothing. I can't see sinking $1495 into something that will be worth nothing since they apparently aren't letting new resales into the system. 

For me, this is a no-brainer not to join. No advantages. Now I just need to decide whether to sell my week now, or let the exchange pool dry up for a few years then sell.

The one thing I don't understand is how they believe keeping future resale buyers out of the system will help them sell timeshares to people. How can they convince someone to spend $40k on something that 8 days later is worth $0k? No matter how you do the math, it doesn't work out in your favor versus renting thee exact same weeks from Marriott, or someone else.


----------



## aka Julie

Most TUGgers have already checked out to see how many points their week(s) are worth.

What about the vast majority of owners who have absolutely no clue about this "new program."

When and how will Marriott get the word out?  They have to do it soon otherwise there will be little inventory for internal trades and it will get off to a very slow start.


----------



## Venter

dougp26364 said:


> I agree that this is scary stuff. They can arbitrarily change the number of points required to reserve a unit? When you by points with Marriott, now you're just buying the right to reserve some vacation time somewhere in the system. From year to year, you'll never know whether the points you originally purchased will be enough to reserve the week you targeted when you laid down you money. Essentially, reserving a week at any one particluar resort appears to have become a moving target for new owners.
> 
> Original owners maintain their right to occupy their home resort week by electing not to give up that week for points. New owners appear to buy an arbitrary number of points and hope that every year they'll have enough points to reserve that summer week at NCV they really wanted. But under this new system, if NCV becomes a hot property, Marriott can increase the number of points required to stay there and it appears they can do so at their discreation.
> 
> Now I understand that trade value will vary from year to year. Hawaii might have lost some trade value in recent years due to the economy. Maybe in a few more years, when the economy turns around, Hawaii might be the hot trade destination again and, even in a weeks based exchange system, that would be reflected by the fact it would be a more difficult exchange.
> 
> But to buy points with the intention of going to Hawaii under the new system when the points required are lower due to the economy, only to see the point requirement go up when things turn around and demand for Hawaii goes up, is bound to tick new owners under the points sytem off to no end. As a legacy owner it's not that big of a deal as I mainten the rights to use my home resort week when Hawaii is to expensive on the points chart. If I own in Hawaii under the original program, it's no big deal because I would retain the right to use my home resort week in my purchased season and in a unit the style/size in my contract. But for new owners, their desired destination has potentially become a moving target. Want to go to Hawaii in 2011? It will be 4,500 points. Want to go to Hawaii in 2020? We can't tell you how many points is it will require because the points required will vary depending on demand.
> 
> I'm glad I bought from Marriott when we did. We won't be buying from Marriott under their new program. There appears to be no way to guarentee what we buy today will get the accomadations we want tomorrow.
> 
> If good resale weeks become available at rock bottom prices because their locked out of the new system, it might be worth picking some up either to use or to exchange on the weeks based system with Interval (might become a hot commodity for Interval if it's an in demand week).



In a way I wonder if this might be good for resales in the long term.  If it costs more and more points as time goes on to stay at a resort then people might look to resale and increase demand.


----------



## IngridN

winger said:


> The way it was explained to me is IF I wanted to take my Platinum Manor Club week and request a straight 7-night exchange to another Marriott resort, I do NOT even have to 'redeem' it for my 2375 points; rather, I would simply inform my VOA that I wanted to request an exchange of my Manor week for say a Newport Coast week.  The VOA would then process the exchange request, similar to what II does now.



I had the same conversation this morning. Basically, what you are doing is exchanging through II with Marriott as your liaison...just like Hilton in RCI. I asked about continued ability to access the II site any time night or day and make exchanges and was told no, that it goes through Marriott. Told her that was a dealbreaker; she then went and checked and came back and told me that I would continue to have full access to II as I do now, except that there would be no II yearly fee and no exchange fee for Marriott to Marriott exchanges. If I exchanged outside of Marriott, there would be the usual II fee. Frankly, I'm sceptical...

Ingrid


----------



## floyddl

UK Fan said:


> The Marriott site told me that I would get 3,225 points for my OceanWatch Platinum Gardenview.  Does anyone else have any MOW examples?
> 
> Thanks.



Plat Plus OF July 4th Week = 5250 with a trade value of 5400


----------



## UK Fan

aka Julie said:


> Most TUGgers have already checked out to see how many points their week(s) are worth.
> 
> What about the vast majority of owners who have absolutely no clue about this "new program."
> 
> When and how will Marriott get the word out?  They have to do it soon otherwise there will be little inventory for internal trades and it will get off to a very slow start.



I have to say that I am curious as to what the other ownes have to say about the new program next week.  At OceanWatch, many owners use their weeks, so I intend on spreading the word about the new program and TUG at the pool!


----------



## josh1231

scrapngen said:


> Not really: let's look at Newport Coast: MF's 1100-1200? Waiohai MF's 1475
> 
> My Christmas Waiohai 4225 points does *not *get me Christmas NCV at 4725 points.
> My New Year's week 5175 *WILL* get me New Year's NCV 4950
> 
> All summer weeks at NCV are MORE than my allotted Christmas week Waiohai!
> June 24-June 30    4725
> July 1-7                5675  (understandable 4th July week - won't ever  actually get this with points unless you have Premier Plus is my guess)
> July 8-Aug 11        4725
> 
> So my Christmas week pulls less than any summer week (!) at both Waiohai and NCV
> And my New Year's week will possibly give me an extra day or two in the summer. Whoopie!!
> Again, I don't see this gaining anything over the current extra I could get trading with an AC. And I have far less chance of trades to other HI resorts for equal 2 bedroom as I see it, as they are valued higher (to be fair, they pay more in MF's, I believe)
> 
> If I'm one of the biggest winners (which I still disagree with - as I think the only winners will be Premier Plus at 13000 points or more) I'm not looking that great. IMHO I should be able to get two weeks in Orlando right now with an AC for just one of my weeks (per your other example). So, again, I'm not seeing better benefits, and if I'm in the best position, then the system must be REALLY bad for everyone else.
> 
> Any flexibility comes at a great loss of point value - so I wouldn't give up a few days just to have a different start day in the week. I'd rather get my current value out of my MF's, not lose it!! If I felt that that additional $169 allowed me to change the start days at my home resort a bit or trade to other prime weeks at my home resort, it would be worth it to me. As it is, that doesn't seem to be the case.



I agree with you completely. The points system doesn't even work out for you with a great week. You would only be able to trade your 2-bedroom into Ko Olina at the least demand weeks at Ko Olina. I just don't see who this benefits.


----------



## UK Fan

I certainly think Marriott will take advantage of their ability to "adjust" the points as much as possible.  It will be interesting to see what happens in 18-24 months.


----------



## pfrank4127

floyddl said:


> Is that right? I thought you convert to points you have to reserve your week with points every year.



Yes it is true.  You yearly choose either to elect for points or to use your deeded week.


Does anything change after I enroll my week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?

None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. You never have to elect Vacation Club Points unless you want to. When you do elect Vacation Club Points, you will be able to redeem them for a vacation at another Marriott Vacation Club resort directly without exchanging through Interval International. You also will be able to check-in any day of the week, select the villa size that best accommodates your travel party and determine the length of your stay. You are no longer locked into 1-week vacations. Vacation Club Points can also be used for exciting travel adventures through the Explorer Collection.


----------



## saturn28

winger said:


> I did a quick, informal, unsolicited walkthrough with a sales rep at a local Marriott resort today.
> 
> One major concern I brought up was that my Platinum Manor Club 'redeems' for 2375 points, which seems VERY low compared to places I have exchanged into the past few years (like Newport Coast, where a comparable Platinum week requires 4725 points, nearly DOUBLE my Manor Club's points).
> 
> The way it was explained to me is IF I wanted to take my Platinum Manor Club week and request a straight 7-night exchange to another Marriott resort, I do NOT even have to 'redeem' it for my 2375 points (*basically, the points chart is meaninless...now how would I have figured that out by myself?* ); rather, I would simply inform my VOA that I wanted to request an exchange of my Manor week for say a Newport Coast week.  *The VOA would then process the exchange request, similar to what II does now.* *I asked for the specific language in some document that specifies this,,,he could not provide it, but will be getting back to me in a few days.* -> The only time/reason I would bank my week for the 2375 points is if I were wanting to make use of the various 'enhancements' of the new program, such as reserve a Fri-Mon stay...
> 
> Cost to purchase is $9.20/point (normal price is $10/pt), and annual maintenance fee for the points is $0.40/point, subject to change.
> 
> There are one-time bonus points offered for enrollment and purchase of additional points - I forget the exact # but it was about 1500pts purchased gets you a one-time bonus of 1600-1800 pts.
> 
> That was all the time the rep had for me LOL.  I guess I just sounded plain too skeptical and he had a client waiting.



Once a weeks owner decides to enroll in the points program, their week will no longer be available to weeks owners that don't join the points program. If they decide to not use points but make a weeks reservation, they have to go through Marriott to use II. That means even though they are depositing a week with Interval, it has to be done through Marriott. Therefore, it is no longer available to the weeks owner that didn't join the points program. There week will now only be available to points owners.

This is how Marriott intends to eventually restrict the weeks owner that decided not to enroll in the points program.


----------



## OWMBGV

UK Fan said:


> The Marriott site indicated that I would get 3,225 points for my OceanWatch Platinum Gardenview.  Does anyone else have any MOW examples?
> 
> Thanks.



Silver GV 1,225.


----------



## wuv pooh

scrapngen said:


> Not really: let's look at Newport Coast: MF's 1100-1200? Waiohai MF's 1475
> 
> My Christmas Waiohai 4225 points does *not *get me Christmas NCV at 4725 points.
> My New Year's week 5175 *WILL* get me New Year's NCV 4950
> 
> All summer weeks at NCV are MORE than my allotted Christmas week Waiohai!
> June 24-June 30    4725
> July 1-7                5675  (understandable 4th July week - won't ever  actually get this with points unless you have Premier Plus is my guess)
> July 8-Aug 11        4725
> 
> So my Christmas week pulls less than any summer week (!) at both Waiohai and NCV
> And my New Year's week will possibly give me an extra day or two in the summer. Whoopie!!
> Again, I don't see this gaining anything over the current extra I could get trading with an AC. And I have far less chance of trades to other HI resorts for equal 2 bedroom as I see it, as they are valued higher (to be fair, they pay more in MF's, I believe)
> 
> If I'm one of the biggest winners (which I still disagree with - as I think the only winners will be Premier Plus at 13000 points or more) I'm not looking that great. IMHO I should be able to get two weeks in Orlando right now with an AC for just one of my weeks (per your other example). So, again, I'm not seeing better benefits, and if I'm in the best position, then the system must be REALLY bad for everyone else.
> 
> Any flexibility comes at a great loss of point value - so I wouldn't give up a few days just to have a different start day in the week. I'd rather get my current value out of my MF's, not lose it!! If I felt that that additional $169 allowed me to change the start days at my home resort a bit or trade to other prime weeks at my home resort, it would be worth it to me. As it is, that doesn't seem to be the case.



You are thinking old system, welcome to the Matrix  

Do the same thing, but only use Sun-Thu points.  Then you will see the great value to you.  If you are stuck in a weeks mentality then points will never be a benefit to you.  In the weeks system any trade you make will always be to your detriment.  In the Matrix you have a fighting chance


----------



## kedler

TheTimeTraveler said:


> '
> 
> If you plan to buy resale, put into the contract that the current owner must join the new system prior to your closing on it.
> 
> Under that scenario I would think those benefits would then transfer to the new buyer.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .


If you become an "Exchange Member" and then sell your week the disclosure guide says that:

"Exchange Members. _If a *purchaser* of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner._d

I read this paragraph as meaning that the Seller has to be in the Exchange Program and the _Buyer must pay the current enrollment fee_ or be locked out of the Program forever (or at least until the Buyer buys points from Marriott in which case they can make an exception). 

The converse is that if we don't "opt in" to the Program and then go to sell our weeks _we are limited to selling to those that do not want anything to do with the Points program._


----------



## urple2

jin said:


> Is there a way to get "THE WORD OUT" to all MVC owners???



I would think getting some details out to timesharing today magazine wouldn't be a bad start.

Also posting on the interval message board will help getting people to think what they are doing... Let see if they delete my post.


----------



## bw3

*convert to points......no way*

I own several platinum weeks and have no interest in converting.  If they are threatening to limit my options if I do not cower to their vision, maybe it is time we fire Marriott.  Only then will they take owners seriously.


----------



## Ann in CA

Well, my first negative impression last night is still my impression.   In 1998, our first time share was a Shell deeded week.  When my husband couldn't get away for a whole week we bought into Shell's "new, exciting points program" for an extra $10,000, and have regretted it ever since.  The cost in points keeps rising, but a deeded week always would have traded for another deeded week.  Along the way, we also exchanged to a Marriott, and liked Marriotts better.  

Then came TUG where we learned we'd made even more mistakes by buying from the developers.  So now that we're more educated, I went round and round with the sales rep at Desert Ridge last week, and  he tried to tell me that I was more educated than most owners, but also more misinformed.  Hah! All my potential objections are coming true. 

We were going to pick up a resale, but held off until the details came out.  Now I am sorry we didn't just do it, and not worry about what Marriott might do.  Don't think there is a chance we will give Marriott any more of our business now by adding anything.   I will really miss getting some great online exchanges if the II offerings really dry up.


----------



## scrapngen

Dean said:


> I'm seeing 13K to get to Premier Plus level.



Sorry, you're right - saw that 12,999 as 12000 (yikes! marketing works if you are just skimming for info.) I will stop propagating that error.


----------



## timeos2

*Thats not good for owners*



larue said:


> Here are a couple of interesting negative provisions in the enrollment contract that I read on vacationclub.com:
> 
> (Owner) will not exercise any vote Owner may have in the owners" association ("Resort Association") operating the resort in which Owner's Timeshare Interest is located ("Resort") in a manner that is, in MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Program, including, without limitation, voting to limit or terminate the Resort's participation in the Program.
> . . . .
> 
> Upon renewal of membership, any and all claims against MVCEC are deemed waived at that time, and MVCEC is released from all liability, if any, arising out of participation in the Program which occurred prior to the renewal of same;
> . . . . .



Now THOSE are some worrisome things to agree to simply to join an exchange program!  You are saying you will NOT VOTE to remove Marriott as an option for exchange at the resort. Nothing wrong with that IF you agree but why agree now what you'll think 5 years from now? And would they ever try to use that as a way to say you cannot vote to end Marriott management at the resort? A much more likely desire - the exchange part is harmless - but that may be yet another way they are trying to lock in lucrative fees far above industry norms. 

I'd have to say no to membership on that provision alone.


----------



## tiel

*Tidbits*

Just spoke Marriott advisor on the phone.  Was told:

Today was a "soft" launch, so not everything is working online.  Tomorrow is the real launch, and everything online is supposed to be functional.  

Notifications to owners will made via email, where possible, but not all owners will be notified at the same time.  The emails will be sent to "X" owners/day.  Advisors are on mandatory OT for the next 2 weeks, at this point.

New "points specialists" have been in training for the last 6 months, and should be available at most of the resorts to answer questions and "sell" the new system.  If you enroll in the new system, you will be assigned a points specialist who will assist you with your vacation arrangements, regardless of whether you want to book your home resort, deposit/exchange with II, exchange internally, convert to club points and bank/spend, or trade for Rewards points.

If you enroll in the Club, you will still need your existing II account to handle any weeks you have already deposited there and remain unredeemed.  So, for some period of time, you may have two II accounts.  The one you already have, and a new one that will be created for you as a result of enrolling in the Club.  Any "new" activity would be processed through the new II account.

If you enroll and your current II membership is paid for more than 1 year into the future, you will receive an AC in your existing account.  If it is prepaid for additional years, you may receive additional ACs that would be deposited in your old (existing) II account, over the life of your prepaid membership.  The example given was, if your II membership is paid 4 years out, you would get an AC after the enrollment process is completed (including the paperwork that has to be done), and another AC at the end of year 3 of the old II membership.  Don't know if they look at your II account as of today (JUN 20) to determine if you are eligible for the AC, or if they just check it whenever you enroll in the Club.

Here are the points for our weeks (all 2 bdrm L/Os except for MOW):

MOW (silver, OS)               1600
Shadow Ridge (platinum)     3075
Surf Club (gold, OS)            3075
Grande Vista (platinum)       2775
Mountainside (platinum)       5350

That's all I got!  Good luck to all in trying to figure out what this new world means to you....


----------



## wuv pooh

bw3 said:


> I own several platinum weeks and have no interest in converting.  If they are threatening to limit my options if I do not cower to their vision, maybe it is time we fire Marriott.  Only then will they take owners seriously.



Then don't.  No one is threatening you with anything.  You can do everything you do today.  If you do not buy the vision then your future opportunities to exchange into other Marriott resorts will be limited to exchanges with others who share your view if Marriotts vision prevails.  Otherwise, everything is exactly the same for you - Use, exchange for MR points, rent, or trade via II.


----------



## qlaval

scrapngen said:


> .... *Can point reservations be rented????? * I haven't figured that out yet...



5c. purchase or use of a membership in MVCEC for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal vacation use of the Owner or Owner’s authorized guests as described in the Exchange Procedures is expressly prohibited...


----------



## wuv pooh

timeos2 said:


> Now THOSE are some worrisome things to agree to simply to join an exchange program!  You are saying you will NOT VOTE to remove Marriott as an option for exchange at the resort. Nothing wrong with that IF you agree but why agree now what you'll think 5 years from now? And would they ever try to use that as a way to say you cannot vote to end Marriott management at the resort? A much more likely desire - the exchange part is harmless - but that may be yet another way they are trying to lock in lucrative fees far above industry norms.
> 
> I'd have to say no to membership on that provision alone.



You are misreading John.  You have to join annually as an exchange member.  Trust members seem to give up their right, but they don't have deeds anyway.  

For provision #1 if you want the resort to withdraw from Marriott then you should not join and use your deeded week to vote for change.

Provision #2 is already a provision of the II contract that everyone has agreed to.  Not sure if this is the same at RCI, but I would expect it.


----------



## KathyPet

I guess I dodged the bullet here.  I just received my closing instructions from St. Kitts on Friday for the resale unit we are buying and I have to sign and return with my cashier's check.  I have  been really worried about this new points program and whether resale purchasers would be able to join.  Well since the cut off is 6/20 I can't join but then St. Kitts owners are not eligible to join anyway so I can breath a sigh of relief and know that the fact that no St. Kitts owners or Marriott itself can offer this program to new purchasers which means my purchase will not be devalued.


----------



## Pit

qlaval said:


> 5c. purchase or use of a membership in MVCEC for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal vacation use of the Owner or Owner’s authorized guests as described in the Exchange Procedures is expressly prohibited...



In other words, if your renter is your "authorized guest" then no problem.


----------



## wsrobinson

floyddl said:


> Is that right? I thought you convert to points you have to reserve your week with points every year.



No, that is not right.  You convert to points and you can do anything you could do previously with your week PLUS convert your week to points and use the points in Marriott's new system.


----------



## kedler

thinze3 said:


> They are charging separate fees for resale vs developer. For me one developer week the cost is $595, and two resales are $1995. if I do all three the cost is $2590.


The total you would pay is:

"If you enroll two or more weeks that have been purchased from multiple parties (Marriott and a third party), the *total* cost of enrollment is $1,995."


----------



## scrapngen

*Renting not allowed if points member...*



qlaval said:


> 5c. purchase or use of a membership in MVCEC for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal vacation use of the Owner or Owner’s authorized guests as described in the Exchange Procedures is expressly prohibited...



Thanks for finding that. Makes sense that they'd lock that up. 

But what does that mean for the legacy owner with a deed who joins the new program?? Can they no longer rent their deeded unit if they don't exercise the points that year and reserve their deeded week simply because they signed up???   Which leads to the additional question of voting rights. Even if you don't exercise your week into points, do you still forfeit your right to vote????  

Because there are plenty of people who use the option to rent their weeks some years. Will they no longer be able to unless they stay away from the new system?


----------



## scrapngen

Pit said:


> In other words, if your renter is your "authorized guest" then no problem.



Don't think that flies under II's prohibition to rent now, as a rental is considered different than a "guest certificate" and many are warned here on TUG not to rent a unit that was reserved through II. I would think it would be similar??


----------



## DanCali

hipslo said:


> Points owners can do the same, and can do so in any daily increments that they desire. * Also, I believe the points inventory opens each tuesday for the following week, a couple of days earlier than the thurs or fri that weeks inventory opens*.



Where is this written?

Couldn't this look weeks owners out completely or just leave them with end of season reservations (e.g. December)?


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> Where is this written?
> 
> Couldn't this look weeks owners out completely or just leave them with end of season reservations (e.g. December)?



It is in the Exchange Procedures disclosure on page 23 that comes up if you want to enroll your week.  It is a chart, which I cannot format, but it shows the difference between Tuesday and Friday for reservations.  If the inventory is mixed, then it will make a big difference.  If the inventory is separate then I think it is just spreading out the calls.

the following is a summary of the Call-in Calendar:
If you are reserving:
And your desired Check-in is:
The first day to check availability is:
7 or more nights and are calling for a Priority 1 Reservation
Wednesday – Tuesday
*Tuesday*
13 months prior to check-in
7 or more nights and are calling for a Priority 2 Reservation
Wednesday – Tuesday
*Friday*
12 months prior to check-in
1 or more night(s) and are calling for a Priority 3 Reservation
Wednesday – Tuesday
Tuesday
10 months prior to check-in
1 or more night(s) and are calling for Open Reservation Time
Wednesday – Tuesday
Tuesday
60 days prior to check-in


----------



## EducatedConsumer

Pit said:


> In other words, if your renter is your "authorized guest" then no problem.




To me, the "commercial relationship (revenue generating)" between the renter and unit owner could not be defended under the aegis of an "authorized guest."

It'll take just one "authorized guest" AKA "renter" to trip and fall in their villa and sue the unit owner and Marriott. I'd give Marriott no mare than a second when defending themselves to testify that rental arrangements are specifically prohibited; that would not lend a lot of credibility to the Defendant.

Granted, the scenario above has a low probability of occurring, I’m left to wonder why anyone (unit owner) would go there.

And people wonder why the IRS' Audit Department is so busy.


----------



## qlaval




----------



## ondeadlin

wuv pooh said:


> Then don't.  No one is threatening you with anything.  You can do everything you do today.  If you do not buy the vision then your future opportunities to exchange into other Marriott resorts will be limited to exchanges with others who share your view if Marriotts vision prevails.  Otherwise, everything is exactly the same for you - Use, exchange for MR points, rent, or trade via II.



This is unnecessarily confrontational and snarky IMO. One of the best things about TUG is the tone - please keep that in mind.


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> It is false.  Marriott also gives people MORE points than it takes to reserve in that previous season. It lets people reserve weeks for 4,500 points, 750 less than they gave.
> 
> So is Marriott ripping you off or are you ripping Marriott off?
> 
> Answer:  No one, they are equivalent.  The true platinum weeks now cost more than the tarnished platinum weeks.
> 
> This has ALWAYS been true, but is now transparent to everyone.  Ironically this is the "trade value grid" that everyone has been clamoring for



I was going to wait until after I read all the posts to comment but I can't seem to keep up.

Pooh, what you are saying definitely has truth to it.  Some people will have enough points to reserve in their old season and some won't.  Here are some of the problems as I see it:

- If you bought a week (especially recently) direct from Marriott and thought that you would be able to potentially book any week in that season and now you can't, I would be furious.  I can only go during school breaks, so it would make no sense for me to turn my week into the points system since I could NEVER do better than just reserving my original week.  In fact, if I turned my week in for points, I couldn't even get my week back.  Can you imagine if you spent $20,000, $30,000 or $40,000 and now you can't get your desired week without buying more points if you decide to join the program?

- From what people have been posting, in some resorts the points they are granted would not get them ANY week in their old season.

- I would completely agree with you (almost) if Marriott took a true average of points now allocated for each season and that is what everyone got.  This way the points given to owners would equal the points needed to book that whole season.  This does not appear to be the case.  Marriott has skimmed points off the top.

- If you think this will make it easier to get the unit you want, you are delusional.  If EVERY owner with enough points can now call on a first come first serve basis, the prime weeks will be gone even quicker.


----------



## Pit

scrapngen said:


> Don't think that flies under II's prohibition to rent now, as a rental is considered different than a "guest certificate" and many are warned here on TUG not to rent a unit that was reserved through II. I would think it would be similar??



I thought the text was quoted from a Marriott document (i.e. has nothing to do with II). The term "commercial purposes" may be clearly defined within the document quoted. Otherwise, I interpret that to mean a legally recognized commercial entity, not an owner acting individually.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening....

What is the record for most posts per thread on a single day????

just curious...

This one is rockin'

even without Perry!!!!


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> Then don't.  No one is threatening you with anything.  You can do everything you do today.  If you do not buy the vision then your future opportunities to exchange into other Marriott resorts will be limited to exchanges with others who share your view if Marriotts vision prevails.  Otherwise, everything is exactly the same for you - Use, exchange for MR points, rent, or trade via II.



But this is not true.  It appears that Marriott will be poaching weeks out of II so some of the best weeks won't make it.

Look I know that some of the Marriott apologists say, 'Hey, all the paperwork says is that you get to use your week in your season.  Everything else is gravy'.  Well first with this new system it may now be much harder to get the weeks I want.

Also, the contract only says you get your week in your season.  BUT even the most honest salesperson sells the dream of trade and going all over the world.  The less honest ones push and push and push that concept all with Marriotts blessing.  Now they are goignto sharply limit that right.  While they are holding to the letter of the law, they are spitting on what they promised.


----------



## PeterS

Been avoiding the speculation but now that real info is out....

My first impressions:

This favors the big owners and not single week owners.

I have one week at Sabal which comes in at 1675...
I am not willing to buy more and increase my maintenance fees...
Beyond the initial payment, the single fee saves me money in years I trade for Reward Points. If I trade to II, I lose money. So on average, it looks like a break even.

So the only real cost (you retain all older choices) is the $600 up front.
The only real gain is access to the newer resorts... for fewer days and smaller units.

I am on the fence... but leaning to doing it for access to the newer resorts.

I would appreciate any insight or thought on what I may be missing.

The one thing I see clearly is that I can never recommend the Marriott system to anyone again. The new Lakeshore Reserve 1bdrm in the slowest season is about twice the points of what my Sabal 2bdrm in mid demand season gets. Sabal is on the grounds (and includes all amenities) of the World Center. Lakeshore Reserve is the same with the JW and RitzCarlton. The only real reason a larger unit in a better season is lower is the age of the resort. If Marriott is doing this now, than even if you have a week worth 4000 points today.... the new resorts in the same area are going to be 5000, 6000, 7000...... Your points purchasing power will drop with each new resort. I can't recommend a system like that.

Thoughts?

Pete


----------



## taffy19

scrapngen said:


> Thanks for finding that. Makes sense that they'd lock that up.
> 
> But what does that mean for the legacy owner with a deed who joins the new program?? Can they no longer rent their deeded unit if they don't exercise the points that year and reserve their deeded week simply because they signed up??? Which leads to the additional question of voting rights. Even if you don't exercise your week into points, do you still forfeit your right to vote????
> 
> Because there are plenty of people who use the option to rent their weeks some years. Will they no longer be able to unless they stay away from the new system?


I read so much last night and believe that I read somewhere that it cannot be abused.  Does it mean that you can rent or borrow points from other owners to get the desired amount of points for your next trip that you take yourself or for an exta condo that you may need for your family or friends?

Too many documents to read last night but we have time to read and digest it all between now and the August date to get the extra PlusPoints and to the end of the year, if you don't care about the freebie PlusPoints.  Once you sign the dotted line, you will lose a lot more rights that you had before and I see this trend continue in the timesharing industry!  The developers want to eat the cake and have it too and certainly when they are the property managers at the resort.


----------



## gmarine

bw3 said:


> Only an idiot would sign up for this program.  The bid-ask spread is astronomical (4%-20%).  And we thought Wall Street was evil.  After looking at the Grande Ocean spread, I wonder how to contact all owners and alert them to this scam.  I guess we just have to fire Marriott.  They are that dense.



Very well put, IMO. Marriott has made the agreement so one sided it borders on ridiculous. By paying to join you basically give Marriott the right to change anything, at anytime. It gets worse and worse the more you look at the details. I cant understand how anyone would fall for this.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> It is in the Exchange Procedures disclosure on page 23 that comes up if you want to enroll your week.  It is a chart, which I cannot format, but it shows the difference between Tuesday and Friday for reservations.  If the inventory is mixed, then it will make a big difference.  If the inventory is separate then I think it is just spreading out the calls.
> 
> the following is a summary of the Call-in Calendar:
> If you are reserving:
> And your desired Check-in is:
> The first day to check availability is:
> 7 or more nights and are calling for a Priority 1 Reservation
> Wednesday – Tuesday
> *Tuesday*
> 13 months prior to check-in
> 7 or more nights and are calling for a Priority 2 Reservation
> Wednesday – Tuesday
> *Friday*
> 12 months prior to check-in
> 1 or more night(s) and are calling for a Priority 3 Reservation
> Wednesday – Tuesday
> Tuesday
> 10 months prior to check-in
> 1 or more night(s) and are calling for Open Reservation Time
> Wednesday – Tuesday
> Tuesday
> 60 days prior to check-in



Mixing inventory is a concern. But I don't think points owners get a head start. Typically, if a resort first checkin day is on a Friday, the 13 month window opens on a Tueday.

For example, the window for July 9 (sat), 2011 opened on June 8, 2010 (assuming the first checin day is a Friday). June 8, 2010 is a Tuesday. When the next year is a leap year (i.e. reservations for 2012 made in 2011), weeks owners would actually call in on a Monday at the 13 months window. 

For the 12 months window, weeks owners typically call in on a Thursday (if the first checkin day is a Friday), so they actually get a head start.

Either way, mixing inventory and creating a free for all doesn't help.


----------



## SMB1

tombo said:


> It is not false. Now Marriott will give you less points for your deposited week than it will cost the exchanger to exchange for the week you deposited. If my week floats platinum and platinum season weeks range from 5000 points to 6000 points, then I can reserve a 6000 point week to use at my home resort. If Marriott gives me 5250 points when I deposit my week, then I will never be able to reserve a 6000 point week at any resort other than my own. In addition if the person exchanging for my home resort week that I would have used pays 6000 points for the priviledge while Marriott only gives me 5250 points, they are pocketing 750 points per owner. It is a rip off where marriott pays less points for deposited weeks than they charge to redeem them.



They are not pocketing it.  There are others depositing a 5000 point week and getting 5250 for it.  You receive the average for the season, which means Marriott loses on some and makes on others.


----------



## DanCali

Frisbeeace said:


> He will tell you that this system will hurt the secondary resale market but will strengthen Marriott's Resale operations through which you can sell your week at developer price less a 40% commission. For a $25,000 week, this means $15,000 for you instead of a fraction of that if you sold at Ebay or other means. Hopefully, this might be true.



Do you get this in writing?


----------



## David10225

*Housekeeping*

I know this has been touched on earlier, but who is going to be responsible for all the extra cleanings that are going to be done in the units.  Everytime someone checks in or out with the new 'stay a day or two" options...it has to be fully cleaned.  Are we who own there going to have to pay?


----------



## mpizza

Don't know if I'm going to join yet, still digesting.  I'll probably wait until I can sit with an advisor while on vacation next week.

Did anyone else calculate what it would cost to purchase their existing points value?  I own one developer and four resales, total points value 9,625, purchase cost $26,500.  If I purchased the equivalent number of points today at $9.20 pp, Marriott would charge me $88,550.  

Maybe I should join and then turn around and sell the points back to Marriott :rofl: 

Maria


----------



## griffinhouse

Oh my gosh, I've spent the greater part of today reading through this site.  I'm not sure I see any advantage to us. I spoke with a Marriott rep this morning and she told me "To be honest, I don't even like this plan".  She also told me that Marriott only expects about 20% of owners to join--I've seen lower expectations given- but that is what she told me.  She also told me that in no way will Marriott Points program be pulling deposited inventory out of Interval. There will be 2 separate inventories.  So that would leave the inventory of 80% of owners still in II.  I'm skeptical and a little concerned that a company I have trusted for so long is so willing to screw with their owners. Doesn't make good business sense to me. As a Marriott Platinum Rewards member they could also lose me as loyal hotel customer.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




timeos2 said:


> I'd have to say no to membership on that provision alone.


Shux upon Marriott Destination Points. 

Shux upon T*.* H*.* E*.* Club. 

Shux upon VIP Status. 

Shux upon ROFR. 

Shux upon all the various semi-clever ways the timeshare companies have come up with to push back against timeshare resales. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## wuv pooh

*What is your vision for the Future?*

There is way too much emotion on this thread, so I am checking out with final thoughts:

What is your vision for the future?

1. Marriott points will fail or you don't care what happens.  You will go on your merry way and everything will stay the same.  If you are happy using your week as designed (using the lottery method to get a reserved 7 day week) or have a fixed week and want to ocassionally trade to non-Marriott II resorts or trade for MR points you will be very happy and not join.  There is no change for you and no reason to consider the system.

2. Marriott points will be a huge success.  In the next few years (say 2-3) the Marriott inventory in II will dry up.  All new resorts, MR exchanges, developer owned weeks, etc. will be deposited into the "Trust" and used for points exchanges.  If you want to trade to other Marriotts or travel for less than 7 days you will be locked out of the system unless you pay the future price, unless you join at current rates.  That future price may require a fee, or buying more points or who knows what.  Today you can join for essentially free, the future is unknown.  The only way you will ever get to a new Marriott resort is if someone wants to trade that for a Non-Marriott resort through II - not too likely.

My prediction is number 2.  Marriott has already seeded the new system with lots of inventory and it is already harder to get an II exchange than past years.  This will be an easy sell.  Convert now and you get a "free" 800 points to offset the cost.  800 points is not enough to go where you want, so convert a week to try out the system.  If it doesn't meet your need then no harm no foul, don't join next year.

However, all the people test driving the system will ensure that people love it.  The more they love it the more they will convert and the whole thing will become a self fulfilling prophecy.  Soon there will be few week deposits into II and the Marriott trades will be done through the points system.

Think about the salesmen.  When I sit in front of them they will say that this is a "historic" opportunity to get into the system at low cost.  Everyone new has to pay $9 a point, but you only paid $5 a point 10 years ago - what a deal.  And your MF are almost the same .42 vs. .40 for new people.  Do you really want to miss the chance of joining for free?  Just try it out for a year and see.  I can also sell you more points at a discount, with free points, plus the conversion fee goes away :hysterical: 

I just caution everyone who likes exchanging between Marriotts to not be emotionally upset at the change, but think about how it will play out.  Tug will have a 90% negative sentiment because we all game the current system, but that day is over starting tomorrow.  The average Marriott customer will make the change and test drive it and that will make it work.

So think about what the future will look like.  Marriott has put a lot of cash into this change and new Trust system and I would think twice before I bet against them.  Especially when it does not cost me anything to try it, except for spending a few days on vacation to recoup my conversion fee at a nice Marriott.  Plus my fee will earn me 5 points each on my credit card


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> Then don't.  No one is threatening you with anything.  You can do everything you do today.  If you do not buy the vision then your future opportunities to exchange into other Marriott resorts will be limited to exchanges with others who share your view if Marriotts vision prevails.  Otherwise, everything is exactly the same for you - Use, exchange for MR points, rent, or trade via II.



Except that you are now competing with ALL points owners to make reservations at your home resort.


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> Scrapgen, you are pretty much the biggest winner of anyone under the new system.
> 
> Join the system.  If you want to stay in your fixed weeks then use them as planned - simple.  If you had floating weeks, you would have a potential issue, but fixed weeks are guaranteed.
> 
> If you want to trade - multiple opportunities.  You are no longer forced to trade down via II or rent your week and hope for the best.
> 
> You can spend 10 nights in the summer in Newport coast.  Go to San Diego for the weekend and spend 10 nights Sun-Thur and still have points left over.
> 
> You can spend a week at Grande Ocean Ocean Side and have points left over- a comparable trade or spend a few more points or go 6 days Ocean Front - a great trade.
> 
> You can spend TWO weeks in Orlando or Williamsburg
> 
> etc., etc.
> 
> It is a great program for people who have spent big bucks with Marriott.



But first they would have to give up their fixed week and then hope they got the trades they wanted.  With II can't they put in a request first and then if they don't get what they want, just stick with their fixed week?


----------



## IngridN

scrapngen said:


> Don't think that flies under II's prohibition to rent now, as a rental is considered different than a "guest certificate" and many are warned here on TUG not to rent a unit that was reserved through II. I would think it would be similar??



The answer I got was that your points reservation can be rented, unlike your II reservation where you would loose membership if caught. I specifically asked if I make a reservation with points, can I rent that reservation to others and the answer was yes, no problem.

Ingrid


----------



## hipslo

DanCali said:


> Where is this written?
> 
> Couldn't this look weeks owners out completely or just leave them with end of season reservations (e.g. December)?



I believe (though I am not certain) that this is only the case at 13 months,  not 12, and yes, that is exactly my concern.

It is on the mvci website, after you log in, under "how to reserve".  There is a chart that mentions that inventory is released on tuesday, and there is also a sample calendar that tells you the date on which inventory can first be reserved under points under various scenarios.


----------



## wsrobinson

wuv pooh said:


> There is way too much emotion on this thread, so I am checking out with final thoughts:
> 
> What is your vision for the future?
> 
> 1. Marriott points will fail or you don't care what happens.  You will go on your merry way and everything will stay the same.  If you are happy using your week as designed (using the lottery method to get a reserved 7 day week) or have a fixed week and want to ocassionally trade to non-Marriott II resorts or trade for MR points you will be very happy and not join.  There is no change for you and no reason to consider the system.
> 
> 2. Marriott points will be a huge success.  In the next few years (say 2-3) the Marriott inventory in II will dry up.  All new resorts, MR exchanges, developer owned weeks, etc. will be deposited into the "Trust" and used for points exchanges.  If you want to trade to other Marriotts or travel for less than 7 days you will be locked out of the system unless you pay the future price, unless you join at current rates.  That future price may require a fee, or buying more points or who knows what.  Today you can join for essentially free, the future is unknown.  The only way you will ever get to a new Marriott resort is if someone wants to trade that for a Non-Marriott resort through II - not too likely.
> 
> My prediction is number 2.  Marriott has already seeded the new system with lots of inventory and it is already harder to get an II exchange than past years.  This will be an easy sell.  Convert now and you get a "free" 800 points to offset the cost.  800 points is not enough to go where you want, so convert a week to try out the system.  If it doesn't meet your need then no harm no foul, don't join next year.
> 
> However, all the people test driving the system will ensure that people love it.  The more they love it the more they will convert and the whole thing will become a self fulfilling prophecy.  Soon there will be few week deposits into II and the Marriott trades will be done through the points system.
> 
> Think about the salesmen.  When I sit in front of them they will say that this is a "historic" opportunity to get into the system at low cost.  Everyone new has to pay $9 a point, but you only paid $5 a point 10 years ago - what a deal.  And your MF are almost the same .42 vs. .40 for new people.  Do you really want to miss the chance of joining for free?  Just try it out for a year and see.  I can also sell you more points at a discount, with free points, plus the conversion fee goes away :hysterical:
> 
> I just caution everyone who likes exchanging between Marriotts to not be emotionally upset at the change, but think about how it will play out.  Tug will have a 90% negative sentiment because we all game the current system, but that day is over starting tomorrow.  The average Marriott customer will make the change and test drive it and that will make it work.
> 
> So think about what the future will look like.  Marriott has put a lot of cash into this change and new Trust system and I would think twice before I bet against them.  Especially when it does not cost me anything to try it, except for spending a few days on vacation to recoup my conversion fee at a nice Marriott.  Plus my fee will earn me 5 points each on my credit card



Logical, reasonable and very well said.


----------



## hipslo

RandR said:


> - If you think this will make it easier to get the unit you want, you are delusional.  If EVERY owner with enough points can now call on a first come first serve basis, the prime weeks will be gone even quicker.



No question.


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> You are thinking old system, welcome to the Matrix
> 
> Do the same thing, but only use Sun-Thu points.  Then you will see the great value to you.  If you are stuck in a weeks mentality then points will never be a benefit to you.  In the weeks system any trade you make will always be to your detriment.  In the Matrix you have a fighting chance



So they get you to join the points program and then decide to revalue the days of the week.  Now you are stuck and your fighting chance has a sword stuck in it.


----------



## ArtsieAng

SMB1 said:


> They are not pocketing it.  There are others depositing a 5000 point week and getting 5250 for it.  You receive the average for the season, which means Marriott loses on some and makes on others.



The lowest amount of points needed to reserve any 2 bdrm, OV week in platinum season at the Aruba Surf & Ocean Clubs is 4,125 points. It goes from 4,125 - 4,650....Platinum Plus weeks are 6,250 - 6,875.

Marriott is only giving us 4,075 points. We do not have enough points to reserve ANY week in our season. Unless I am reading this chart incorrectly?


----------



## mpizza

Questions for those of you who have spoken directly with a rep:

I understand that 800 points are gifted with enrollment which expire December 31, 2011.  Is there a maintenance fee due for use?  

If I purchase the lowest point package of 250 points @ $9.20 = $2300, will  my enrollment fee of $1995 (I own developer and resale weeks) be waived?

Maria


----------



## winger

MRMarriott said:


> ...
> I think it makes sense to see how many points you get and how many points your week is worth, *but you would never use points to get 7 days back at your home resort.* That's just not what they're for...


Now, how did you come to this conclusion?  This is exactly what the sales rep mentioned to me earlier today.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930858&postcount=461


----------



## saturn28

*Why Marriott May think This is a Good Deal For Weeks Owners*

These may be some of the reasons Marriott may think weeks owners may decide to join even though

1) The cost is not prohibitted. ( $650 to $1995)
2) They will not be able to reserve a week at any new Marriott resorts.
3) The cost for staying a week at a resort using points does not apply to them. They can simply continue to book any Marriott resort through II using the weeks exchange.
4) If they decide they want to stay less than a week, they can use the point system to book 1 to 6 night stays
5) If they are a Resale Owner, they will be able to trade their week for Marriott Rewards Points to stay at Marriott Resorts and Hotels worldwide.
6) They will only have to pay a fee of $165 to $199 per year. This fee will include the Interval membership, the Marriott Points membership, internal exchanges, Marriott Rewards fees, and lock-off fees.
7) If they don't join, the cost to join in the future may not exist or the fee may be a lot more
8) If they don't join, as the years go by there will be less availability for high demand weeks booking through Interval. In addition, they will not have access to new Marriott Resorts
9) If Marriott starts to sell resales again for the points system, they will be able to get Marriott to sell their week and receive 60% of the developers price.


----------



## wsrobinson

ArtsieAng said:


> The lowest amount of points needed to reserve any 2 bdrm, OV week in platinum season at the Aruba Surf & Ocean Clubs is 4,125 points. It goes from 4,125 - 4,650....Platinum Plus weeks are 6,250 - 6,875.
> 
> Marriott is only giving us 4,075 points. We do not have enough points to reserve ANY week in our season. Unless I am reading this chart incorrectly?



This is a fact.  However, you won't use the points to go back to your own resort.  You will simply request a week at your own resort.  The points are used to go to other resorts.  Now, the question is...can you use those points to go someplace else?


----------



## SueDonJ

Wow!  This thread grew HUGE this afternoon!  A couple things ...

I'm still not able to access the info for how many points our weeks are worth through the "Enroll Now" button so I'll be trying and trying and trying and trying ... until Owner Services opens tomorrow and maybe another rep will verify what was told to me this morning OR give me different point values.  Thanks, wsrobinson, for your SurfWatch figures - they give me something concrete to compare.

It seems there is a whole lot of confusion between the points being allotted to ownerships and the points usage charts that Davidvel put into PDF form for us.  *Does everyone who is questioning the different point values for weeks within the season, realize that even in the points system it will still be possible to book any week (subject to availability, of course) within the season?  Those points usage charts are only for exchanges into the resort, not owners booking their owned weeks.*  I know it's been said here by others so I'm wondering why some folks are still thinking that they won't be able to book the same weeks because point values are different per week.

Can we please put a lid on the comments about owners who might join this new system being "crazy" or "stupid" or "ripped-off?"  At least for a week maybe while we all figure it out?  I know, I know, this thing won't work for everyone.  But it will definitely work for some, and it's very aggravating to see that the old TUG mentality of insulting folks who might find value in a Marriott-direct product is already here in this thread not even twenty-four hours after rollout.  I'm worried that with so many TUGgers not in favor of the points system, TUG is going to be a place that won't feel very hospitable to the few of us who might be able to make points work.  Quite honestly, without TUG I wouldn't have nearly the level of knowledge it takes to make Marriott timeshares work to their best advantage, and I'd hate to be made to feel that I'm no longer welcome here if I choose points.  Thanks for at least considering someone else's opinion.


----------



## RandR

gmarine said:


> Very well put, IMO. Marriott has made the agreement so one sided it borders on ridiculous. By paying to join you basically give Marriott the right to change anything, at anytime. It gets worse and worse the more you look at the details. I cant understand how anyone would fall for this.



While I am very unhappy with the new program this is something that I may have to defend Marriott on.  They put clauses like this in the contracts so that they are not boxed in and if something needs to be changed it can be.  Can any of the attorneys comment on this?


----------



## wsrobinson

winger said:


> Now, how did you come to this conclusion?  This is exactly what the sales rep mentioned to me earlier today.
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930858&postcount=461



None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. *If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. You never have to elect Vacation Club Points unless you want to*. When you do elect Vacation Club Points, you will be able to redeem them for a vacation at *another* Marriott Vacation Club resort directly without exchanging through Interval International. You also will be able to check-in any day of the week, select the villa size that best accommodates your travel party and determine the length of your stay. You are no longer locked into 1-week vacations. Vacation Club Points can also be used for exciting travel adventures through the Explorer Collection.


----------



## RandR

David10225 said:


> I know this has been touched on earlier, but who is going to be responsible for all the extra cleanings that are going to be done in the units.  Everytime someone checks in or out with the new 'stay a day or two" options...it has to be fully cleaned.  Are we who own there going to have to pay?



Is it possible that the mf which seem higher for the points program are going to go to the extra costs?


----------



## SueDonJ

mpizza said:


> Questions for those of you who have spoken directly with a rep:
> 
> I understand that 800 points are gifted with enrollment which expire December 31, 2011.  Is there a maintenance fee due for use?
> 
> If I purchase the lowest point package of 250 points @ $9.20 = $2300, will  my enrollment fee of $1995 (I own developer and resale weeks) be waived?
> 
> Maria



The rep I spoke with this morning said that the annual Club Dues fee for 2010 ($165 up to 6,499 points, $199 for 6,500 or more points) will be waived if we join during this enrollment period because we are almost half-way through the year.

Don't know the answer to your second question.


----------



## Darlene

I can not find the link now to see how many points it takes to exchange into a resort. Does anyone know where it is on the website?
Thanks


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

A lot of people won't be signing up for this new program, and Interval International may not dry up as fast as you think.

First of all, if you live in New York, you don't even have the option to join, so you're stuck using the old program, a no choice alternative.

Secondly, what % of New York residents own a MVCI property?   Other than California, I bet a large % of ownership is based in New York due to income alone.

Third, it now makes sense to look at other brands for exchanging rather than exclusively Marriott.   Marriott will be losing my business in the exchange process as I will now look at other alternatives.

I'll continue to digest this as the days progress  and hope I don't have too big of a headache.....


----------



## wsrobinson

SueDonJ said:


> Wow!  This thread grew HUGE this afternoon!  A couple things ...
> 
> I'm still not able to access the info for how many points our weeks are worth through the "Enroll Now" button so I'll be trying and trying and trying and trying ... until Owner Services opens tomorrow and maybe another rep will verify what was told to me this morning OR give me different point values.  Thanks, wsrobinson, for your SurfWatch figures - they give me something concrete to compare.



Maybe your connection?  Ive been in half a dozen times (including a minute ago) but my dsl is running at 6300 kbps.

Dean indicated the value given me on the site is a mistake and is really for 3 BD units.  So, stay tuned or you may get more valid info tomorrow.  For now, it continues to be what the site staes my week is "worth".


----------



## skidoc

The flexibility of the points program is why I bought Disney, rather than MVCI, a couple of years ago.  Now I'm kicking myself that I didn't pick up a Marriott week on the resale market (I've been looking for EOY Ocean Pointe weeks but haven't been successful on ebay as of yet.  Marriott states that resale owners can get into the points system if they closed before today.  I guess that if I eventually pick up a Marriott week resale in the future, then I won't be able to get into the points system.

I wonder if resale prices will go further into the tank at this point.  I was looking for a Marriott week to be able to access II (my DVC only access RCI).  I guess I could consider some non-Marriott II traders.


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> There is way too much emotion on this thread, so I am checking out with final thoughts:
> 
> What is your vision for the future?
> 
> 1. Marriott points will fail or you don't care what happens.  You will go on your merry way and everything will stay the same.  If you are happy using your week as designed (using the lottery method to get a reserved 7 day week) or have a fixed week and want to ocassionally trade to non-Marriott II resorts or trade for MR points you will be very happy and not join.  There is no change for you and no reason to consider the system.
> 
> 2. Marriott points will be a huge success.  In the next few years (say 2-3) the Marriott inventory in II will dry up.  All new resorts, MR exchanges, developer owned weeks, etc. will be deposited into the "Trust" and used for points exchanges.  If you want to trade to other Marriotts or travel for less than 7 days you will be locked out of the system unless you pay the future price, unless you join at current rates.  That future price may require a fee, or buying more points or who knows what.  Today you can join for essentially free, the future is unknown.  The only way you will ever get to a new Marriott resort is if someone wants to trade that for a Non-Marriott resort through II - not too likely.
> 
> My prediction is number 2.  Marriott has already seeded the new system with lots of inventory and it is already harder to get an II exchange than past years.  This will be an easy sell.  Convert now and you get a "free" 800 points to offset the cost.  800 points is not enough to go where you want, so convert a week to try out the system.  If it doesn't meet your need then no harm no foul, don't join next year.
> 
> However, all the people test driving the system will ensure that people love it.  The more they love it the more they will convert and the whole thing will become a self fulfilling prophecy.  Soon there will be few week deposits into II and the Marriott trades will be done through the points system.
> 
> Think about the salesmen.  When I sit in front of them they will say that this is a "historic" opportunity to get into the system at low cost.  Everyone new has to pay $9 a point, but you only paid $5 a point 10 years ago - what a deal.  And your MF are almost the same .42 vs. .40 for new people.  Do you really want to miss the chance of joining for free?  Just try it out for a year and see.  I can also sell you more points at a discount, with free points, plus the conversion fee goes away :hysterical:
> 
> I just caution everyone who likes exchanging between Marriotts to not be emotionally upset at the change, but think about how it will play out.  Tug will have a 90% negative sentiment because we all game the current system, but that day is over starting tomorrow.  The average Marriott customer will make the change and test drive it and that will make it work.
> 
> So think about what the future will look like.  Marriott has put a lot of cash into this change and new Trust system and I would think twice before I bet against them.  Especially when it does not cost me anything to try it, except for spending a few days on vacation to recoup my conversion fee at a nice Marriott.  Plus my fee will earn me 5 points each on my credit card





wsrobinson said:


> Logical, reasonable and very well said.



But isn't it wrong?  Once you join the program, you can't get out.  You don't have to exchange for points but you are in the new system.  Now if you want to exchange, it goes to II through Marriott.  So am I missing something?  Can you back out of the program after you are in it?


----------



## wsrobinson

Darlene said:


> I can not find the link now to see how many points it takes to exchange into a resort. Does anyone know where it is on the website?
> Thanks



http://veljovich.com/tugpoints/points_charts.pdf


----------



## SueDonJ

wsrobinson said:


> Maybe your connection?  Ive been in half a dozen times (including a minute ago) but my dsl is running at 6300 kbps.
> 
> Dean indicated the value given me on the site is a mistake and is really for 3 BD units.  So, stay tuned or you may get more valid info tomorrow.  For now, it continues to be what the site staes my week is "worth".



I have no idea.  (Duh.  See?  Moron.   )  Today's reps said there are reports about most Macs not getting access, but the problem isn't limited to Macs.  In fact she couldn't access the points info for my weeks on her comp and had to put me on hold while she asked her supervisor.  She did say that her comp was going to be worked on today and the glitches in the entire system should be fixed tomorrow.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because now I can't get through on the Mac or on Don's crackberry browser.

I did read your and Dean's later posts, thanks.  Good luck to all of us.


----------



## wsrobinson

RandR said:


> But isn't it wrong?  Once you join the program, you can't get out.  You don't have to exchange for points but you are in the new system.  Now if you want to exchange, it goes to II through Marriott.  So am I missing something?  Can you back out of the program after you are in it?



I remember it being discussed that you could get out and then back in for an amount much greater than the initial fee.


----------



## ondeadlin

TheTimeTraveler said:


> A lot of people won't be signing up for this new program, and Interval International may not dry up as fast as you think.
> 
> First of all, if you live in New York, you don't even have the option to join, so you're stuck using the old program, a no choice alternative.
> 
> Secondly, what % of New York residents own a MVCI property?   Other than California, I bet a large % of ownership is based in New York due to income alone.



This is a misconception that should be discussed.

II will dry up as fast, or as much, as Marriott wants it to, because now Marriott has the power to pluck any week it wants to out of the system, whether you join the new points system or not.

So no matter how many New Yorkers join, those same New Yorkers can have their week plucked by Marriott, thus weakening II.


----------



## RandR

wsrobinson said:


> I remember it being discussed that you could get out and then back in for an amount much greater than the initial fee.



I guess after 500+ posts in one day I must have missed/forgotten it.


----------



## SueDonJ

wsrobinson said:


> I remember it being discussed that you could get out and then back in for an amount much greater than the initial fee.



Yes, that was in the '08 survey and mentioned a 3-year term for some outrageous fee.  None of the speculation that was fueled by those related survey questions seems to have made it into the program.


----------



## SMB1

timeos2 said:


> You do understand that under the new system, as in any points system, the range of weeks covered by a deeded ownership include some that will carry high point values - holidays, summer weeks - and some lower but still in that season as originally outlined. So while your deed has the right to reserve one of the higher point value weeks you cannot and do not get that value every year. Instead they take the TOTAL points generated for all weeks in that season, divide by the total use periods & the resulting average per week is what you receive. So you are getting a fair distribution of point value covering your true share based on the week / season purchased. To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).
> 
> Once you step outside your home resort you do need to pay the true rate. You can easily do that by pooling, borrowing, renting or just owning more points than your original deed entitled you to.  Now by carefully spreading those points through all the process and all the options it should be possible to get the exact use you want at various resorts and maximize the value of what you own.  That is what we have found with other points based exchanges and no reason to think Marriott would work any differently.
> 
> You are getting a fair shake. The days of playing the system for free upgrades goes away. A known value system with hopefully better access to desired times (as owners are more careful with what they spend their limited points for rather than grabbing the best and biggest even just to trade) is what a good points system buys you. It does cost more than the old place & hope weeks type trades but is far easier to utilize and understand for most buyers. More like hotel reservations.



John, about a year ago I thought you, for what ever reason, had a chip on your shoulder.  I thought the posts seemed negative.  In the months leading up to this day , however, I found your posts to be very educational.  You don't own Marriott so you have no real stake in this.  But it is clear that you have forgotten more about TS than most of us will ever know.  The posts are not negative, simply objective.  Very helpful.  Thanks.


----------



## RandR

ondeadlin said:


> This is a misconception that should be discussed.
> 
> II will dry up as fast, or as much, as Marriott wants it to, because now Marriott has the power to pluck any week it wants to out of the system, whether you join the new points system or not.
> 
> So no matter how many New Yorkers join, those same New Yorkers can have their week plucked by Marriott, thus weakening II.



But if people do a request first then Marriott can't touch it correct?  I have never done a request first so I am not sure about the details.  If someone does a request first does that mean their week doesn't show up until there is a match?  If this is yes, then if most people do a request first, inventory won't show for trading purposes.


----------



## wuv pooh

RandR said:


> But isn't it wrong?  Once you join the program, you can't get out.  You don't have to exchange for points but you are in the new system.  Now if you want to exchange, it goes to II through Marriott.  So am I missing something?  Can you back out of the program after you are in it?



I can't escape :rofl: Since we are not Trust members we are under no obligation to stay in the system. In fact, if Marriott does not like the result they are under no obligation to continue it. 

2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. *There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur.* *Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member.* Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company.

You are on the hook for the fees if you want to stay though

b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner.

It is not clear if you can join, cancel, then join again to get the new resorts.  I am sure this will be pitched as a "one time" chance to join without purchasing a points package.


----------



## Stressy

ArtsieAng said:


> The lowest amount of points needed to reserve any 2 bdrm, OV week in platinum season at the Aruba Surf & Ocean Clubs is 4,125 points. It goes from 4,125 - 4,650....Platinum Plus weeks are 6,250 - 6,875.
> 
> Marriott is only giving us 4,075 points. We do not have enough points to reserve ANY week in our season. Unless I am reading this chart incorrectly?



Angela,

Did you see this?

_To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York._


----------



## winger

_Quote:
Originally Posted by 1965 View Post
if you only have 2000 Marriott Destination Vacatiion Club points
and
you only want (1) night in a studio at a MVC Resort

when can you make this reservation?
how many days out??_


floyddl said:


> It seem like inside of 60 days.


My rep said 10 months.  This agrees with the that chart that shows levels of membership and booking timelines


----------



## Darlene

Thanks for the chart! I did make a mistake, but this is what I found out about our fixed week at Marriott Monarch. 
The new point systems says that we would get 1900 points for our week. We have a May 28th, 2011 check-in, and to get a GV it would take 2,675 points. That is difference of 775 points! To get an OF, which owners at a resort often get upgraded to if available, it would take 3,775 points. 
I don't even want to get into how much it would take to book to places we have been or would want to go. 
Darlene


----------



## billymach4

Stressy said:


> Angela,
> 
> Did you see this?
> 
> _To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York._



WOW!!! This is HUGE. WHY? Are they afraid of Andrew Cuomo the Atty General of NYS? 

What is up with that? That makes my decision real easy, But I do feel sort of on the outside as I don't even have the option to consider this?


----------



## hipslo

wsrobinson said:


> None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. *If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. You never have to elect Vacation Club Points unless you want to*. When you do elect Vacation Club Points, you will be able to redeem them for a vacation at *another* Marriott Vacation Club resort directly without exchanging through Interval International. You also will be able to check-in any day of the week, select the villa size that best accommodates your travel party and determine the length of your stay. You are no longer locked into 1-week vacations. Vacation Club Points can also be used for exciting travel adventures through the Explorer Collection.



The way to book in your existing season is to do so via weeks, not points. Which is fine, except that you will then be competing with ALL points owners, system wide, to reserve at your own resort, in your deeded season.  For those who desire to book at their home resort, in their owned season, this is not a positive development.


----------



## tombo

timeos2 said:


> You do understand that under the new system, as in any points system, the range of weeks covered by a deeded ownership include some that will carry high point values - holidays, summer weeks - and some lower but still in that season as originally outlined. So while your deed has the right to reserve one of the higher point value weeks you cannot and do not get that value every year. Instead they take the TOTAL points generated for all weeks in that season, divide by the total use periods & the resulting average per week is what you receive. So you are getting a fair distribution of point value covering your true share based on the week / season purchased. To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).
> 
> Once you step outside your home resort you do need to pay the true rate. You can easily do that by pooling, borrowing, renting or just owning more points than your original deed entitled you to.  Now by carefully spreading those points through all the process and all the options it should be possible to get the exact use you want at various resorts and maximize the value of what you own.  That is what we have found with other points based exchanges and no reason to think Marriott would work any differently.
> 
> You are getting a fair shake. The days of playing the system for free upgrades goes away. A known value system with hopefully better access to desired times (as owners are more careful with what they spend their limited points for rather than grabbing the best and biggest even just to trade) is what a good points system buys you. It does cost more than the old place & hope weeks type trades but is far easier to utilize and understand for most buyers. More like hotel reservations.





This is not a FAIR SHAKE! I  can NEVER get a prime week at any comparable resort again using points. I can now only get prime weeks at my home resort, at every comparably rated resort using Marriott's own points assignments I will be short on the points needed to get a prime week. Plus now I will be competing with owners at my home resort and with every points owner with enough points for the prime weeks in season at my home resort.

If the prime weeks at my resort which I am entitled to by owning in season are worth 6000 points (weeks which I got most years at my resort or another), and the worst weeks in my season are worth 5000 points (weeks I never got stuck with because I planned ahead), and they only give me 5300 points annually, I can NEVER use points for a comparable prime week at any resort other than my home resort. Is Marriott giving me or any other Platinum owner 6000 points one year, 5500 points the next, and 5000 points the third? Nope, they are giving you a lower than middle of the road average number of points every year. That means you NEVER get the points that you deserve for the prime week you can snag at your home resort. No points member will get the amount of points it takes to reserve prime weeks in their season, but marriott will get the maximum number of points they can charge for prime weeks for anyone that trades into your resort. If some pay 6000 points for a platinum week on exchange, some platinum owners should receive 6000 points for depositing their week. Marriott will always charge the 6000 points for a prime week,however they will not give any owners the 6000 points they receive  for the week the owners put into the points pool.

RIPOFF for owners, Points bonanza for Marriott!


----------



## MountainGal

Well I currently have a resale Platinum at Desert Springs and am in the process of buying another resale.  Of course, I see the second resale will be excluded from consideration.  That's ok since I just really want to spend time in Palm Desert.

I am attempting to keep up with the posts but thought I better get my questions out there for feedback.  It appears I will continue to be able to make home resort reservations during the same 1-21 & 50-52 weeks as before.  Correct?  Also, will I still be able to lock-off the two units for a 4 week stay?  With the purchase that I'm currently in the midst of, will I be able to count this as my second Desert Springs timeshare that provides me with the 13-month reservation window?  Or is that only now available only to those with points?

I'm not liking this change and won't even consider going after points.


----------



## ArtsieAng

Stressy said:


> Angela,
> 
> Did you see this?
> 
> _To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York._





billymach4 said:


> WOW!!! This is HUGE. WHY? Are they afraid of Andrew Cuomo the Atty General of NYS?
> 
> What is up with that? That makes my decision real easy, But I do feel sort of on the outside as I don't even have the option to consider this?



LOL.....I had seen it, but I'm still interested in how the program is going to work. Who knows Billy, maybe we're being saved here. Time will tell.


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> It seems there is a whole lot of confusion between the points being allotted to ownerships and the points usage charts that Davidvel put into PDF form for us.  *Does everyone who is questioning the different point values for weeks within the season, realize that even in the points system it will still be possible to book any week (subject to availability, of course) within the season?  Those points usage charts are only for exchanges into the resort, not owners booking their owned weeks.*  I know it's been said here by others so I'm wondering why some folks are still thinking that they won't be able to book the same weeks because point values are different per week.



The way to book a week at your home resort, in your deeded season, will be to do so in the weeks system, not the points system.  So, in addition to competing with all owners at the home resort, in season, who have not converted, you will also be competing with ALL points owners who have sufficient points to book the desired week.  The issue in that case is not one of insufficient points, but of potentially more competition for the best weeks.


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> The way to book in your existing season is to do so via weeks, not points. Which is fine, except that you will then be competing with ALL points owners, system wide, to reserve at your own resort, in your deeded season.  For those who desire to book at their home resort, in their owned season, this is not a positive development.



Not necessarily.  Why do you believe this?  I think that there are conflicting reports from salesmen - Shocking  

Someone needs to get an official statement of if the inventories for weeks and points are separate.  I believe the more credible contact said that they were separate, which makes the most sense, but it would be a big issue if the inventory is mixed.  I don't know how the would guarantee owners their deeded week if they mixed the inventories, but maybe that is why NY opted out  

The easiest example is a fixed week.  If points owners booked it at 13 months then single fixed week owners might not get their fixed week.  Marriott cannot allow this to happen without a big compensation to the owner.  It would violate the rights of the owner under the deed.  Makes more sense to keep the inventory separate.


----------



## RandR

billymach4 said:


> WOW!!! This is HUGE. WHY? Are they afraid of Andrew Cuomo the Atty General of NYS?
> 
> What is up with that? That makes my decision real easy, But I do feel sort of on the outside as I don't even have the option to consider this?



NY tends to be tough on lots of things.  I sell insurance and when you see lots of products, many come with the disclaimer of "Not available in NY".  In a way it is crazy.  If the new points program does gut the weeks in II (questionable at least at first) and if reserving a week at your home resort does get harder (likely), then NYers may really be getting hosed.


----------



## billymach4

*The New York exlcusion*

I believe the New York Exclusion is just for this Bonus incentive. I just searched the Legal Docs and I did not get a hit on "NEW YORK" so I think it is just this promo that Ann in CA received.







Ann in CA said:


> This is the part I saw first as I was googling Marriott Points Program...I thought it was for new points purchasers, but perhaps also for those with weeks that don't pull the number of points they want.  That points value of weeks link still doesn't work!
> 
> "Earn 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints for a limited time
> 
> As a Marriott Vacation Club Owner, you'll always enjoy a lifetime of unforgettable vacations. And now until August 13, 2010, when you purchase Vacation Club Points at a special price, you'll receive 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints.
> 
> Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints are not offered at Marriott’s Frenchman’s Cove, Marriott’s St. Kitts Beach Club, Marriott’s Village d’lle-de-France, Marriott’s Playa Andaluza, Marriott’s Club Son Antem, Marriott’s Marbella Beach Resort, and Marriott’s Phuket Beach Club.
> 
> To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York.
> 
> As a Marriott Vacation Club Owner, you'll always enjoy a lifetime of unforgettable vacations. And now until August 13, 2010, when you purchase Vacation Club Points at a special price, you'll receive 2,000 to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints.
> 
> Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints are not offered at Marriott’s Frenchman’s Cove, Marriott’s St. Kitts Beach Club, Marriott’s Village d’lle-de-France, Marriott’s Playa Andaluza, Marriott’s Club Son Antem, Marriott’s Marbella Beach Resort, and Marriott’s Phuket Beach Club.
> 
> To participate in the Vacation Club Points and Vacation Club PlusPoints offer you must be a resident of the District of Columbia or a resident of any state in the U.S. excluding New York.
> 
> What are Vacation Club PlusPoints?
> 
> Vacation Club PlusPoints are good toward an array of exciting vacation options, including stays at Marriott Vacation Club resorts or adventure travel packages.
> Unlike Vacation Club Points that renew each year, Vacation Club PlusPoints can only be used once
> You may combine Vacation Club PlusPoints with your annual Vacation Club Points to create a bigger bank of points and enjoy multiple vacations or a dream vacation of a lifetime.
> What can you do with Vacation Club PlusPoints?
> 
> With 2,000 Vacation Club PlusPoints, you can relax for 5 nights in a 2-bedroom Oceanview villa at Marriott’s Oceana Palms in the Palm Beaches, Florida.
> 
> With 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints, you can enjoy 13 days and 12 nights for two exploring the splendors of the Nile, including a deluxe 4-night cruise on the Nile River.
> 
> These are just two examples from a wide range of available options. With Vacation Club Plus Points, you can visit new destinations or enhance your current vacations. The choice is yours.
> 
> This special offer is available only for a limited time.
> 
> Request Information
> 
> or Call 1-800-307-7312 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************1-800-307-7312******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************1-800-307-7312******end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> 
> Promo Code: 2J31J0
> 
> SPONSOR : Marriott Vacation Club International
> 
> ELIGIBILIT Y: The offer of Vacation Club PlusPoints is for first-time Vacation Club points purchasers only. Purchasers are not eligible for the Vacation Club points offer if they currently have a contract pending or on hold, or if they have cancelled a contract within the last 90 days.
> 
> OFFER : Purchaser must initiate, sign and return contract to Marriott Vacation Club, attention: Central Sales Distribution, 6649 Westwood Boulevard, Suite 500, Orlando, Florida, 32821 no later than August 13, 2010 in order to receive the Vacation Club PlusPoints offer. Minimum purchase price to receive Vacation Club PlusPoints is $14,010. The amount of PlusPoints awarded depends on the amount of Vacation Club Points purchased, ranging from 2000 Vacation Club PlusPoints awarded for the purchase of 6 beneficial interests (equivalent to a $14,010 purchase) to 12,500 Vacation Club PlusPoints for the purchase of 31 or more beneficial interests (equivalent to a purchase of $72,385 or more). Vacation Club PlusPoints will be posted to the appropriate account seven (7) days following the completion of the Vacation Club points purchase transaction. Vacation Club PlusPoints expire December 31, 2011. Offer subject to change without notice. Offer not valid in conjunction with any other promotional offer. Offer is nontransferable.
> 
> This is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation to buy to residents in jurisdictions in which registration requirements have not been fulfilled, and your eligibility and the resorts available for purchase will depend upon the state of residency of the purchaser."


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> Not necessarily.  Why do you believe this?  I think that there are conflicting reports from salesmen - Shocking
> 
> Someone needs to get an official statement of if the inventories for weeks and points are separate.  I believe the more credible contact said that they were separate, which makes the most sense, but it would be a big issue if the inventory is mixed.  I don't know how the would guarantee owners their deeded week if they mixed the inventories, but maybe that is why NY opted out
> 
> The easiest example is a fixed week.  If points owners booked it at 13 months then single fixed week owners might not get their fixed week.  Marriott cannot allow this to happen without a big compensation to the owner.  It would violate the rights of the owner under the deed.  Makes more sense to keep the inventory separate.



Marriott has it covered. If points members book up all prime weeks at your homr resort in your season and you have the worst week at your home resort in your season available for you to reserve, then they have fullfilled their contractual obligation. They can make sure points has access to all prime weeks before those who won't convert and still be honoring their contract if there are ANY in season weeks available to owners.


----------



## Serina

I wonder how similiar this is to the Disney points system. Any thoughts?

We've been happy with DVC...have been happy with our Marriott resales too - not sure about the changes though.


----------



## Frisbeeace

The points system will not work for me as my 3 Sabal Palms weeks are weak traders BUT since I usually trade them for MR points, then my annual fees would go down if I join, so I am tempted to give it a thought anyways. However, if the trade-for-MR points option worsens due to new devaluations, and I'm left with the only option of exchanging through II, then I might get trapped in the system forever paying more... anyone in a similar situation?


----------



## DanaTom

wuv pooh said:


> Not necessarily.  Why do you believe this?  I think that there are conflicting reports from salesmen - Shocking
> 
> Someone needs to get an official statement of if the inventories for weeks and points are separate.  I believe the more credible contact said that they were separate, which makes the most sense, but it would be a big issue if the inventory is mixed.  I don't know how the would guarantee owners their deeded week if they mixed the inventories, but maybe that is why NY opted out
> 
> The easiest example is a fixed week.  If points owners booked it at 13 months then single fixed week owners might not get their fixed week.  Marriott cannot allow this to happen without a big compensation to the owner.  It would violate the rights of the owner under the deed.  Makes more sense to keep the inventory separate.




I don't think this is true as only 50% of inventory is released at 13 mo... unless they are changing this rule also....?


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> RIPOFF for owners, Points bonanza for Marriott!



You keep saying this, but I still do not understand the mechanism. 

Are you saying that Marriott is not giving the full points value x the # of intervals and then renting the excess point value to benefit them?  Is Marriott defrauding us?

Or are you saying the Platinum owners are disadvantaged vs. gold and silver under the new system?

Please clarify how Marriott is getting a bonanza.


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> The way to book a week at your home resort, in your deeded season, will be to do so in the weeks system, not the points system.  So, in addition to competing with all owners at the home resort, in season, who have not converted, you will also be competing with ALL points owners who have sufficient points to book the desired week.  The issue in that case is not one of insufficient points, but of potentially more competition for the best weeks.



Understood, that "_subject to availability_" is going to be a much greater stumbling block with Points being rolled out than it was in the Weeks system.  But I was responding to the posts where folks speculated if they joined the Points system they could not book all home resort weeks in their season because some point values are higher than their allotment.  That's not true.  Even if you join, you still book your home resort use the same way as before.


----------



## ArtsieAng

billymach4 said:


> I believe the New York Exclusion is just for this Bonus incentive. I just searched the Legal Docs and I did not get a hit on "NEW YORK" so I think it is just this promo that Ann in CA received.



OK....So, maybe we haven't been saved after all. Lol


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> Marriott has it covered. If points members book up all prime weeks at your homr resort in your season and you have the worst week at your home resort in your season available for you to reserve, then they have fullfilled their contractual obligation. They can make sure points has access to all prime weeks before those who won't convert and still be honoring their contract if there are ANY in season weeks available to owners.



If you believe this, then you should convert and buy more points to access the prime weeks you want.  Marriott will be helping you rip off the other owners and now it will be guaranteed for a known price vs. random through the current system.


----------



## wsrobinson

wuv pooh said:


> You keep saying this, but I still do not understand the mechanism.
> 
> Are you saying that Marriott is not giving the full points value x the # of intervals and then renting the excess point value to benefit them?  Is Marriott defrauding us?
> 
> Or are you saying the Platinum owners are disadvantaged vs. gold and silver under the new system?
> 
> Please clarify how Marriott is getting a bonanza.



Just guessing here but perhaps it seems to be the impropriety that Marriott didn't give the number of points required to use a week in your own season as a basis for all point exchanges.  BUT, I think they did this across the board.  I'm not sure anyone comes out ahead from this perspective.  I can understand and I think they would have inflamed less owners had they made your point value equal to the value needed to exchange into your home resort/season.


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> Not necessarily.  Why do you believe this?  I think that there are conflicting reports from salesmen - Shocking
> 
> Someone needs to get an official statement of if the inventories for weeks and points are separate.  I believe the more credible contact said that they were separate, which makes the most sense, but it would be a big issue if the inventory is mixed.  I don't know how the would guarantee owners their deeded week if they mixed the inventories, but maybe that is why NY opted out
> 
> The easiest example is a fixed week.  If points owners booked it at 13 months then single fixed week owners might not get their fixed week.  Marriott cannot allow this to happen without a big compensation to the owner.  It would violate the rights of the owner under the deed.  Makes more sense to keep the inventory separate.



I was told, over the phone today, that the inventories would not be separate, and that it would be first come/ first serve as between weeks and points, although there would be a limit on the aggregate number of weeks available to points owners, so that all weeks owners would still have weeks available to them.  But there is nothing to prevent a disproportionate number of "prime" weeks from going to points owners.  This could happen if there are lots of premiere or premiere plus points owners trying to reserve the prime weeks at any given resort.  Their sheer numbers could overwhelm the weeks owners seeking the same reservations. 

I will say that the rep I spoke with didnt seem certain of the answer to this question (ad may not even have understood the question fully, though I tried to be very precise).  She did put me on hold several times and conferred with her supervisior.  Though I am not convinved this is necessarily the "right" answer.  

I didnt ask about fixed weeks specifically, but of course they couldnt put more of these in the points pool than those actually given up by fixed week owners, as fixed weeks are a special case.  I dont think they'd have the same constrainsts with floating weeks.  So long as all season owners are able to reserve SOME week in their season, and have an equal crack at the best weeks with all others, I suspect the arrangement would be legal.  

It would be great if others could ask this same question and post the repsonses they get.  Even better if DaveM might run this one by his well placed sources....


----------



## wuv pooh

DanaTom said:


> I don't think this is true as only 50% of inventory is released at 13 mo... unless they are changing this rule also....?



That is the question in another form.  The new system allows large point owners and anyone for a 20% points premium to book inventory 13 months out.  There does not seem to be any % restriction, which would make sense if it is points inventory.

If it is weeks inventory or mixed then it could be a big issue if enough people with priority decided to book the week.


----------



## hipslo

DanaTom said:


> I don't think this is true as only 50% of inventory is released at 13 mo... unless they are changing this rule also....?



There is nothing in any of the new materials (that I have seen, anyway) concerning how much inventory is or isnt released for points reservations at 13 months.  Not sure how we'd find out the answer to this one.


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> You keep saying this, but I still do not understand the mechanism.
> 
> Are you saying that Marriott is not giving the full points value x the # of intervals and then renting the excess point value to benefit them?  Is Marriott defrauding us?
> 
> Or are you saying the Platinum owners are disadvantaged vs. gold and silver under the new system?
> 
> Please clarify how Marriott is getting a bonanza.



If no owners have enough points to reserve prime weeks in their season then every time someone deposits their home week with Marriott and uses points to exchange for another marriott resort, they will not get enough points to get what they are entitled to at their home resort, and that is the CHANCE to reserve a prime in season week!

If your platinum weeks float week 18 to 38, and weeks 18 to 21 cost 5000 points, weeks 22 to 32 cost 6000 points, and weeks 33 to 38 cost 5000 points, and if as is the case in almost all resorts under the new program every platinum owner is assigned 5300 annual points (a supposed average), then NO PLATINUM OWNERS will ever be able to exchange for a 5500 or 6000 point week at any resort other than their home resort. So 10 platinum in season weeks are worth 6000 points, but not a single owner at that resort gets 6000 points to exchange for another resort. Some inventory will be deposited by owners, Marriott will assign some of the deposits the prime weeks 22 to 32, some exchangers will pay 6000 points to stay there for a week, but not one single points member will get 6000 points. That is the ripoff. You have the rights to reserve a week worth 6000 points at your home resort based on availability, but Marriott will never give you 6000 points for reliquishing your rights to that week so you can exchange for another comaparable week/resort.


----------



## Mamianka

TheTimeTraveler said:


> A lot of people won't be signing up for this new program, and Interval International may not dry up as fast as you think.
> 
> First of all, if you live in New York, you don't even have the option to join, so you're stuck using the old program, a no choice alternative.
> 
> Secondly, what % of New York residents own a MVCI property?   Other than California, I bet a large % of ownership is based in New York due to income alone.
> 
> Third, it now makes sense to look at other brands for exchanging rather than exclusively Marriott.   Marriott will be losing my business in the exchange process as I will now look at other alternatives.
> 
> I'll continue to digest this as the days progress  and hope I don't have too big of a headache.....



We live in NY, and own at Grand Chateau.  When we did an exploratory foray into "Enroll Now", we were told our 2 BR lockoff was worth 3275 points, and the enrollment fee was $595 - and that we would get 800 bonus points.  Clearly, they know we live in NY - they referenced our deed, etc.  So how are we shut out of the new program, if we wish to partake?


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> I was told, over the phone today, that the inventories would not be separate, and that it would be first come/ first serve as between weeks and points, although there would be a limit on the aggregate number of weeks available to points owners, so that all weeks owners would still have weeks available to them.  But there is nothing to prevent a disproportionate number of "prime" weeks from going to points owners.  This could happen if there are lots of premiere or premiere plus points owners trying to reserve the prime weeks at any given resort.  Their sheer numbers could overwhelm the weeks owners seeking the same reservations.
> 
> I will say that the rep I spoke with didnt seem certain of the answer to this question (ad may not even have understood the question fully, though I tried to be very precise).  She did put me on hold several times and conferred with her supervisior.  Though I am not convinved this is necessarily the "right" answer.
> 
> I didnt ask about fixed weeks specifically, but of course they couldnt put more of these in the points pool than those actually given up by fixed week owners, as fixed weeks are a special case.  I dont think they'd have the same constrainsts with floating weeks.  So long as all season owners are able to reserve SOME week in their season, and have an equal crack at the best weeks with all others, I suspect the arrangement would be legal.
> 
> It would be great if others could ask this same question and post the repsonses they get.  Even better if DaveM might run this one by his well placed sources....



Yes, we need to get some confirmation on that.  The people I talked to today thought I was asking about MR points and had to put me on hold numerous times  

If what you were told is true then I would think the new system is a significant devaluation of ownership rights for existing owners.  It would of course depend on how many people were willing to pay the point cost to get a prime week at the resort.  From this thread it does not seem like many are willing or able to pay the price  

However, if they go down that path then they are betting on statistics that tell them how many people on average will use a week.  If they are wrong or the demand pattern shifts then they will potentially run into big problems with providing deeded owners their weeks.


----------



## DanaTom

wuv pooh said:


> That is the question in another form.  The new system allows large point owners and anyone for a 20% points premium to book inventory 13 months out.  There does not seem to be any % restriction, which would make sense if it is points inventory.
> 
> If it is weeks inventory or mixed then it could be a big issue if enough people with priority decided to book the week.




yeah, if points can fill up a resort, then the guy with no priority could really be out of luck for any prime weeks.   If true, I should have just stuck to renting.  Being an owner sure has it's disadvantages.   I sure wish someone knew if they were doing this....  as it is now, the 50% inventory release limitation still allows for bookings at 12 mos...just have to be early.


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Understood, that "_subject to availability_" is going to be a much greater stumbling block with Points being rolled out than it was in the Weeks system.  But I was responding to the posts where folks speculated if they joined the Points system they could not book all home resort weeks in their season because some point values are higher than their allotment.  That's not true.  Even if you join, you still book your home resort use the same way as before.




True.  So, competition for home resort, in season prime weeks gets tougher, and the ability to exchange into comprable resorts/ seasons for a full week will now cost more $$ (points) than under the current system.

What is it exactly about the new system that you see as a benefit?


----------



## kedler

wsrobinson said:


> I get that as well but being that the closing process takes 60 days or so what will they be doing with all the weeks purchased in the last 2 months?  Have these people bought into the points program?  i would say "NO".  Therefore, I am confused about "closed".


Legally (I'm an attorney), the term "closed" in the world of deeded real estate means that the money has changed hands and the deed to the property has been signed and given to the new owner for recording. In some states the deed does not need to be recorded to transfer ownership rights - record its simply considered a "ministerial act"; however, there are states that do not consider ownership to have passed until the deed is actually recorded.

I did not see any specific definition of "closed" in the disclosure guide but I've spent the day with family for Father's Day not wading through the documents. If I find a definition at some point I will post it.


----------



## SueDonJ

Serina said:


> I wonder how similiar this is to the Disney points system. Any thoughts?
> 
> We've been happy with DVC...have been happy with our Marriott resales too - not sure about the changes though.



A big difference between this and DVC is that DVC was never a weeks-based system while Marriott is now converting from weeks-based to points, and is offering a way for the existing Weeks owners to join the Points system which will be in effect for all sales going forward.  The usage charts look remarkably similar to DVC's in the daily/weekend/weekly breakdown, and for future Marriott-direct purchasers they will be invaluable to review in order to determine the approximate number of points they'll want to purchase to get their desired usage.

Somewhere in all those links I thought I saw something (but can't find it) about point re-allocations across the usage charts being subject to a 10% annual maximum.  That stipulation is similar to DVC, except I think DVC has a lower percentage.

It appears that some of the more involved legal mumbo-jumbo provides for Marriott protections in a similar fashion to DVC protections, but I don't have DVC contracts to compare.

The biggest difference IMO is that DVC contracts have an expiration date - ownership actually ceases on a certain day - and it appears that Marriott's conversion and future Point contracts do not.

DVC points are home-resort based, and m/f are determined per resort/per point owned.  Existing Marriott weeks converted to points will keep the home resort and m/f base as is, it appears future Marriott point purchases will not have a home resort base for use or m/f.

DVC reservation windows open at 11 months for home resort usage and 7 months for other resorts.  Marriott will now have 13- and 12-month reservation windows with the advantages given to high-points owners and multi-week owners.

I'm not sure how or when exchanges can be made with DVC, except that RCI is the current external exchange option for DVC and it's through a corporate account rather than the traditional member accounts Marriott owners currently have with II.  Not sure if Marriott Points-based owners will exchange the same way in II, but the rep this morning told me if we enroll in Points we will be given a new II member number.

I'm sure others can add or make corrections to this ....


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> If no owners have enough points to reserve prime weeks in their season then every time someone deposits their home week with Marriott and uses points to exchange for another marriott resort, they will not get enough points to get what they are entitled to at their home resort, and that is the CHANCE to reserve a prime in season week!
> 
> If your platinum weeks float week 18 to 38, and weeks 18 to 21 cost 5000 points, weeks 22 to 32 cost 6000 points, and weeks 33 to 38 cost 5000 points, and if as is the case in almost all resorts under the new program every platinum owner is assigned 5300 annual points (a supposed average), then NO PLATINUM OWNERS will ever be able to exchange for a 5500 or 6000 point week at any resort other than their home resort. So 10 platinum in season weeks are worth 6000 points, but not a single owner at that resort gets 6000 points to exchange for another resort. Some inventory will be deposited by owners, Marriott will assign some of the deposits the prime weeks 22 to 32, some exchangers will pay 6000 points to stay there for a week, but not one single points member will get 6000 points. That is the ripoff. You have the rights to reserve a week worth 6000 points at your home resort based on availability, but Marriott will never give you 6000 points for reliquishing your rights to that week so you can exchange for another comaparable week/resort.



But how does Marriott benefit from that?  What you are describing is the same thing as today.  People that exchange Hawaii for Orlando are getting ripped off.  They are getting ripped off by other owners though, not Marriott.  In your example, you are getting ripped off by other owners who are getting a benefit.

How does Marriott cash in the benefit?


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> How does Marriott cash in the benefit?



They try to sell you more points so that under the new system you can more "conveniently/flexibly" do what you can already do now.


----------



## JimIg23

NCV platinum owners get 3475 points in the conversion.  It costs 4725 for a summer week!  That is almost a 1300 point spread...  I wonder why NCV is so far off than some of the others I have read?


----------



## hipslo

JimIg23 said:


> NCV platinum owners get 3475 points in the conversion.  It costs 4725 for a summer week!  That is almost a 1300 point spread...  I wonder why NCV is so far off than some of the others I have read?




It seems to me that the more artificially extended the existing season is, the greater the disparity between the points award and the cost to reserve the best weeks in the season, which I suppose should not be all that surprising.


----------



## timeos2

*The value, or lack, was always there but hidden by the process*



tombo said:


> This is not a FAIR SHAKE! I  can NEVER get a prime week at any comparable resort again using points. I can now only get prime weeks at my home resort, at every comparably rated resort using Marriott's own points assignments I will be short on the points needed to get a prime week. Plus now I will be competing with owners at my home resort and with every points owner with enough points for the prime weeks in season at my home resort.
> 
> If the prime weeks at my resort which I am entitled to by owning in season are worth 6000 points (weeks which I got most years at my resort or another), and the worst weeks in my season are worth 5000 points (weeks I never got stuck with because I planned ahead), and they only give me 5300 points annually, I can NEVER use points for a comparable prime week at any resort other than my home resort. Is Marriott giving me or any other Platinum owner 6000 points one year, 5500 points the next, and 5000 points the third? Nope, they are giving you a lower than middle of the road average number of points every year. That means you NEVER get the points that you deserve for the prime week you can snag at your home resort. No points member will get the amount of points it takes to reserve prime weeks in their season, but marriott will get the maximum number of points they can charge for prime weeks for anyone that trades into your resort. If some pay 6000 points for a platinum week on exchange, some platinum owners should receive 6000 points for depositing their week. Marriott will always charge the 6000 points for a prime week,however they will not give any owners the 6000 points they receive  for the week the owners put into the points pool.
> 
> RIPOFF for owners, Points bonanza for Marriott!



Roll over two or three years of the extra above the base 5000 - the extra those few weeks with higher value translate to in points & you have the 6000=/- you need for at least one year of an upgrade. Under the covers it was all you ever actually owned but the old system only allowed for 7 day to 7 day - the excess (or loss) got passed to the other side of the trade. Now it is open & you have to arrange to meet the level you want by amassing enough points. It isn't the same as before but it is at least as fair as before in a different way. 

You can still use II if they have inventory or look to week to week traders like SFX.  The door isn't closed but the options have been changed significantly.


----------



## Dave M

hipslo said:


> There is nothing in any of the new materials (that I have seen, anyway) concerning how much inventory is or isnt released for points reservations at 13 months.  Not sure how we'd find out the answer to this one.


No, but there is in the legal documents for most resorts. And the new points program can't override those documents. Examples:

Grand Chateau: "... no more than fifty perrcent (50%) of the available non-Developer inventory for each Use Period can be reserved more than one (1) year in advance...."

Custom House: "... no more than fifty percent (50%) of the availavle Time-Share Plan inventory can be reserved ..." [using the 13-month reservation advantage].


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> True.  So, competition for home resort, in season prime weeks gets tougher, and the ability to exchange into comprable resorts/ seasons for a full week will now cost more $$ (points) than under the current system.
> 
> What is it exactly about the new system that you see as a benefit?



This is what I posted this morning, just thinking out loud, but I'm nowhere near convinced yet.     It's so difficult to pick out the truth from the speculation, even now, and it's impossible for me until whatever computer glitch I'm working with is fixed.  Plus there were later posts from wsrobinson and dean that talked about possible inconsistencies with my resort's (SurfWatch) point charts - that needs to be resolved.


----------



## timeos2

*Shouldn't effect you*



MountainGal said:


> Well I currently have a resale Platinum at Desert Springs and am in the process of buying another resale.  Of course, I see the second resale will be excluded from consideration.  That's ok since I just really want to spend time in Palm Desert.
> 
> I am attempting to keep up with the posts but thought I better get my questions out there for feedback.  It appears I will continue to be able to make home resort reservations during the same 1-21 & 50-52 weeks as before.  Correct?  Also, will I still be able to lock-off the two units for a 4 week stay?  With the purchase that I'm currently in the midst of, will I be able to count this as my second Desert Springs timeshare that provides me with the 13-month reservation window?  Or is that only now available only to those with points?
> 
> I'm not liking this change and won't even consider going after points.



Nothing should change for you if you intend to use what you bought at the resort. You really don't need to be concerned with points.


----------



## RandR

Here's another question.  A resort has Friday, Saturday and Sunday check in.....now a points person comes in and since he isn't restricted to the check in days, takes Wednesday - Monday.  Didn't he just screw up 2 weeks for a weeks owner?


----------



## Dave M

Mamianka said:


> We live in NY, and own at Grand Chateau.  When we did an exploratory foray into "Enroll Now", we were told our 2 BR lockoff was worth 3275 points, and the enrollment fee was $595 - and that we would get 800 bonus points.  Clearly, they know we live in NY - they referenced our deed, etc.  *So how are we shut out of the new program, if we wish to partake?*


It appears that you are not shut out. See billymach4's post #558.


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> They try to sell you more points so that under the new system you can more "conveniently/flexibly" do what you can already do now.



Ok. I see that now.  Under a points system like DVC the number of points sold always has to equal the number of points to reserve through the year.  The total points is the same but the distribution can change.

What people are saying under the overlay system the number of points sold does not equal the number of points to reserve through the year.  It takes more points to reserve the year than points obtained if everyone converted.

If that is the case then I would call that a rip off.  Or maybe a bad deal.  You are exchanging for flexibility and access to the new resorts, but you are not seeing the true cost.  It is the fee plus the total devaluation.

I guess the only way to tell is to multiply out the current calendar by the points offered vs. the points to exchange for each resort.  I wonder if anyone has access to all the info?  We can do the exchange piece, but would need input from other week owners that have other seasons at the resorts.


----------



## hipslo

Dave M said:


> No, but there is in the legal documents for most resorts. And the new points program can't override those documents. Examples:
> 
> Grand Chateau: "... no more than fifty perrcent (50%) of the available non-Developer inventory for each Use Period can be reserved more than one (1) year in advance...."
> 
> Custom House: "... no more than fifty percent (50%) of the availavle Time-Share Plan inventory can be reserved ..." [using the 13-month reservation advantage].



Thats true, thanks Dave.

Do you have any info, or a view, as to whether ALL of the 13 month inventory for a given "prime" week could be taken by points owners, in theory at least, so long as at least that number of units in the season at issue have enrolled in points?  (ie - whether or not inventory would have to be allocated pro rata among all weeks in a season)?


----------



## Dave M

hipslo said:


> I was told, over the phone today, that the inventories would not be separate, and that it would be first come/ first serve as between weeks and points, although there would be a limit on the aggregate number of weeks available to points owners, so that all weeks owners would still have weeks available to them.  But there is nothing to prevent a disproportionate number of "prime" weeks from going to points owners.  This could happen if there are lots of premiere or premiere plus points owners trying to reserve the prime weeks at any given resort.  Their sheer numbers could overwhelm the weeks owners seeking the same reservations.


Although not a perfect solution, there is still the 50% limit on reservations more than 12 months in advance. See my post #583.


----------



## hipslo

RandR said:


> Here's another question.  A resort has Friday, Saturday and Sunday check in.....now a points person comes in and since he isn't restricted to the check in days, takes Wednesday - Monday.  Didn't he just screw up 2 weeks for a weeks owner?



he sure did.


----------



## winger

tombo said:


> .... Now with many resorts/seasons costing over 6000 points it will take you 3 years to accumulate enough points to trade for what you could have traded week for week in the past, and that is if they will even let you carry points over for 3 years. ....


Points can only be carried over 1 year, max, according to something I read in the docs.


----------



## Dave M

hipslo said:


> Thats true, thanks Dave.
> 
> Do you have any info, or a view, as to whether ALL of the 13 month inventory for a given "prime" week could be taken by points owners, in theory at least, so long as at least that number of units in the season at issue have enrolled in points?  (ie - whether or not inventory would have to be allocated pro rata among all weeks in a season)?


No more than 50% of *any* week can be taken more than 12 months in advance. Thus, if there are 150 units at a certain resort, no more than 75 of those units for (as an example) week 47 can be reserved more than 12 months in advance. The remainder will be available at 12 months, although points owners might be clamoring for those weeks at 12 months, too! (Note the "for each Use Period" language in my text that you quoted.)


----------



## hipslo

Dave M said:


> Although not a perfect solution, there is still the 50% limit on reservations more than 12 months in advance. See my post #583.



Right, but wouldnt this have a major adverse impact upon the ability of a multiple week owner to reserve a high demand week at 13 months?  And wouldnt all of the increased competition at 12 months from points owners have the same effect on the ability of single week owners to reserve high demand weeks at 12 months out?  It would seem so, unless there is a pro rata allocation of inventory between points and weeks on a per week basis.


----------



## SueDonJ

Dave, it's probably difficult for you to keep changing your hats from being one of the few who had some inside information to think about, and one in the giant pool with the rest of us just trying to figure out how this will work with what you own and how you use it.  But ... what's your first impression at roll-out?


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> But how does Marriott benefit from that?  What you are describing is the same thing as today.  People that exchange Hawaii for Orlando are getting ripped off.  They are getting ripped off by other owners though, not Marriott.  In your example, you are getting ripped off by other owners who are getting a benefit.
> 
> How does Marriott cash in the benefit?



If for example a Platinum Ocean Watch owner gets 5300 annual points, and a platinum NCV owner gets 5300 annual points, you should be able to deposit your platinum ocean watch week, take your 5300 points and based on availability be able to reserve a prime platinum NCV week. 

This is not how marriott is doing it. Using these hypothetical points levels for an example, Platinum owners only get 5300 annual points at both resorts for depositing their weeks, but prime weeks at both resorts cost 6000 points. So you have the right to reserve a 6000 point week at your home resort, but you don't get enough points to reserve it elsewhere. Marriott charges someone 6000 points to reserve a prime platinum week you could have reserved, but they only give you 5300 points keeping 700 points. You get 5300, the exchanger pays 6000 points for the week you reliquished, Marriott profits 700 points in the exchange. 

Under the new points system you have to buy more points or borrow future points to get a comparable 6000 point prime week trade to what you gave up. You know that you have the right to reserve a 6000 point week at your home resort, yet you can't get that many points from Marriott when you deposit your week. Where is Marriott getting the 6000 point weeks from? From owners who deposit the weeks with II or within the internal points program. Marriott never gives 6000 points for the deposited week, but they have no problem charging 6000 points to get it. How can you not see how marriott is charging more points for weeks than they are giving?


----------



## DanaTom

Dave M said:


> No, but there is in the legal documents for most resorts. And the new points program can't override those documents. Examples:
> 
> Grand Chateau: "... no more than fifty perrcent (50%) of the available non-Developer inventory for each Use Period can be reserved more than one (1) year in advance...."
> 
> Custom House: "... no more than fifty percent (50%) of the availavle Time-Share Plan inventory can be reserved ..." [using the 13-month reservation advantage].





Here is info from their docs... 
A. Priority 1 Period. During the Priority 1 Period, Premier and Premier Plus Owners, and other Members reserving through an Advance Priority Reservation, have the right to request a reservation, subject to the Call-in Calendar, on a first-come, first-served subject to availability basis for the use of Use Periods in Accommodations available through the Program and other Special Benefits made available by Exchange Company from time to time during the Use Year for which Premier and Premier Plus Owners hold sufficient Exchange Points, in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. The number of Exchange Points which must be released by the Member for such Premier Reservations and Advance Priority Reservations shall be determined in accordance with the then-current Exchange Point Schedule. During the Priority 1 Period, Exchange Company shall immediately confirm all Premier Reservations and Advance Priority Reservations made pursuant to these Exchange Procedures, if available, on a first-come, first-served basis. Any Exchange Points required to obtain an Advance Priority Reservation (over and above the number of Exchange Points that would be required to reserve the same Accommodations during the Priority 2 Period, Priority 3 Period, or Open Reservation Period) will not be restored to the Member in the event that the Advance Priority Reservation is cancelled by the Member. Notwithstanding any rights granted to Members pursuant to this Section A., Exchange Company reserves the right to limit or restrict the number of reservations that may be made (including, without limitation, the number of Members who may make reservations and the number of reservations that may be made) at any particular Component during the Priority 1 Period to further the best interests of the Members as a whole as determined by Exchange Company in its sole and absolute discretion. Except as otherwise provided in these Exchange Procedures, Use Periods reserved by Standard Owners and Premier Owners during the Priority 1 Period must have a minimum of seven (7) consecutive evenings, and all reservations are subject to applicable minimum durations of stay for certain Markets or at certain Components as shown on the Exchange Point Schedule. In the event a Standard Owner or Premier Owner requests a Use Period during the Priority 1 Period and Exchange Company is only able to confirm a portion of such requested Use Period because less than seven (7) consecutive evenings are
20
094873:0154_1478499.10 3/12/2010 4:27 PM
available, Exchange Company may, upon Member’s request, confirm such reservation in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion. Except as otherwise provided in these Exchange Procedures, and subject to applicable minimum duration of stays for certain Markets or at certain Components as shown on the Exchange Point Schedule, there are no minimum length-of-stay requirements for Use Periods reserved by Premier Plus Owners during the Priority 1 Period. Exchange Company may limit the Use Periods and the Accommodations on a Component-by-Component basis that are available for reservation during the Priority 1 Period, and may withhold up to fifty percent (50%) of the Use Periods and Accommodations at any particular Component for reservation during other Reservation Windows, all as determined from time to time in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion. Priority 1 Reservations are available only to those Members who are entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits.



I note the word "may withhold up to fifty percent....   I hate that word "may"...not an absolute and looks to be at their control


----------



## Dave M

Dana Tom - That language still doesn't override the legal restrictions in individual resort documents. Further, that language appears to relate to the points weeks available to reserve at 13 months, which cannot invade the 50% of weeks that must be available at 12 months according to most resort docs (unless changes are made to those docs).


----------



## Serina

Does anyone know the point value of platinum Grande Ocean and gold Newport Coast? Thanks in advance - I'm having computer glitches on the website.


----------



## RandR

timeos2 said:


> Roll over two or three years of the extra above the base 5000 - the extra those few weeks with higher value translate to in points & you have the 6000=/- you need for at least one year of an upgrade. Under the covers it was all you ever actually owned but the old system only allowed for 7 day to 7 day - the excess (or loss) got passed to the other side of the trade. Now it is open & you have to arrange to meet the level you want by amassing enough points. It isn't the same as before but it is at least as fair as before in a different way.
> 
> You can still use II if they have inventory or look to week to week traders like SFX.  The door isn't closed but the options have been changed significantly.



But from what I have seen someone say, you can only roll points for one year so you can't save from several years.


----------



## DanaTom

Dave M said:


> Dana Tom - That language still doesn't override the legal restrictions in individual resort documents. Further, that language appears to relate to the points weeks available to reserve at 13 months, which cannot invade the 50% of weeks that must be available at 12 months according to most resort docs (unless changes are made to those docs).




I was hoping that is the correct answer...   thanks for the clarification.  Obviously, documents can be in conflict.  Maybe new resorts open going forward will not have the 50% limitation in them..??


----------



## RandR

timeos2 said:


> Nothing should change for you if you intend to use what you bought at the resort. You really don't need to be concerned with points.



Except for the fact that it may now be harder to get the prime weeks in your season.


----------



## SMB1

SueDonJ said:


> Wow!  This thread grew HUGE this afternoon!  A couple things ...
> 
> I'm still not able to access the info for how many points our weeks are worth through the "Enroll Now" button so I'll be trying and trying and trying and trying ... until Owner Services opens tomorrow and maybe another rep will verify what was told to me this morning OR give me different point values.  Thanks, wsrobinson, for your SurfWatch figures - they give me something concrete to compare.
> 
> It seems there is a whole lot of confusion between the points being allotted to ownerships and the points usage charts that Davidvel put into PDF form for us.  *Does everyone who is questioning the different point values for weeks within the season, realize that even in the points system it will still be possible to book any week (subject to availability, of course) within the season?  Those points usage charts are only for exchanges into the resort, not owners booking their owned weeks.*  I know it's been said here by others so I'm wondering why some folks are still thinking that they won't be able to book the same weeks because point values are different per week.
> 
> Can we please put a lid on the comments about owners who might join this new system being "crazy" or "stupid" or "ripped-off?"  At least for a week maybe while we all figure it out?  I know, I know, this thing won't work for everyone.  But it will definitely work for some, and it's very aggravating to see that the old TUG mentality of insulting folks who might find value in a Marriott-direct product is already here in this thread not even twenty-four hours after rollout.  I'm worried that with so many TUGgers not in favor of the points system, TUG is going to be a place that won't feel very hospitable to the few of us who might be able to make points work.  Quite honestly, without TUG I wouldn't have nearly the level of knowledge it takes to make Marriott timeshares work to their best advantage, and I'd hate to be made to feel that I'm no longer welcome here if I choose points.  Thanks for at least considering someone else's opinion.



Try a different web browser.  I couldn't get on with safari, but I did get on with firefox.


----------



## m61376

hipslo said:


> While I suppose this won't matter if weeks and points inventory are truly kept separate (unless allocation of reservations between the two pools is purely "first come first serve" as between points and weeks), but I have been playing around with a new calendar on the mvci website that tells you the first date on which you can call in to reserve under points if you qualify as premiere or premiere plus, at 13 months in advance, and, lo and behold, points owners get a couple of days jump on weeks owners in terms of the first date to call in.



Where is the link for that?
Another related question- for those that convert but are booking at their home resort, can they book their week at 13 months if they qualify for premiere status, or is the 13 months window only if booking using points?


----------



## timeos2

*Owners got the points - ALL owners*



tombo said:


> Under the new points system you have to buy more points or borrow future points to get a comparable 6000 point prime week trade to what you gave up. You know that you have the right to reserve a 6000 point week at your home resort, yet you can't get that many points from Marriott when you deposit your week. Where is Marriott getting the 6000 point weeks from? From owners who deposit the weeks with II or within the internal points program. Marriott never gives 6000 points for the deposited week, but they have no problem charging 6000 points to get it. How can you not see how marriott is charging more points for weeks than they are giving?



They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.


----------



## DanCali

hipslo said:


> I believe (though I am not certain) that this is only the case at 13 months,  not 12, and yes, that is exactly my concern.
> 
> It is on the mvci website, after you log in, under "how to reserve".  There is a chart that mentions that inventory is released on tuesday, and there is also a sample calendar that tells you the date on which inventory can first be reserved under points under various scenarios.



Not sure if you also saw my other post below (I leave for a coupel of hours and have 150 posts to read). If points owners book on Tuesday at 13 months out, that's not necessarily a disadvantage to weeks if your first checkin day is Friday or earlier.



DanCali said:


> Mixing inventory is a concern. But I don't think points owners get a head start. Typically, if a resort first checkin day is on a Friday, the 13 month window opens on a Tueday.
> 
> For example, the window for July 9 (sat), 2011 opened on June 8, 2010 (assuming the first checin day is a Friday). June 8, 2010 is a Tuesday. When the next year is a leap year (i.e. reservations for 2012 made in 2011), weeks owners would actually call in on a Monday at the 13 months window.
> 
> For the 12 months window, weeks owners typically call in on a Thursday (if the first checkin day is a Friday), so they actually get a head start.
> 
> Either way, mixing inventory and creating a free for all doesn't help.


----------



## timeos2

*It can be done*



RandR said:


> But from what I have seen someone say, you can only roll points for one year so you can't save from several years.



You can roll an ever increasing amount from year to year and not bump into the one year restriction. Or simply plan to use lower value weeks/smaller units one year so you'll have 1000 or so "leftover" to roll to the next year. Then you have the 6000 needed. It works very well with a little planning.


----------



## jimf41

It's getting late and I'm getting tired of reading so I stopped about halfway through. I'm a little disappointed at some of the info put out so far by so called "tug experts". I'll dispel some of the inaccuracies I've found so far.

1. New yorkers can join. I confirmed this by telephone and by getting through to the enroll site ( thanks for whomever gave the tip about using FireFox) where all my weeks were listed with their accompanying point value. The point values the rep gave were exactly the same as on the website.

2. Frenchman's Cove and St Kitts can join.

3. Points can be banked for longer than one year. I'm not sure how long but longer than your usage year.

4. A lot of folks are saying they can't book what they have because the point value of their week is less than the week requires in the point system. This is true sometimes but not always and I don't think even most of the time. I suspect this will be more prevalent to a one week owner who falls into a shortfall point given vrs point required situation. I added up all my points, 24775. then I added up what is required to book the weeks that I usually book, 25475. 700 point minus but that's if I deposit all my weeks as points. Half of that 700 point deficit comes from depositing my MFC Pres fixed week. I would never do that on a year I want to use it so my real deficit is 350 points. Not good but not the disaster some are alluding to. On 3 of my Ocean point weeks I actually have a point surplus.

5. This one really irks me. Marriott did not give the shaft to their developer purchasers. What they did was to grandfather in at a slightly higher cost all of their loyal owners who purchased resale. I'm glad they finally did that as those resale buyers don't have to walk around the resort with that big red "R" on their foreheads anymore. It was scaring my grandkids. I'm hopeful that will allow something for future resale buyers but at this time that does not appear likely.

I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do. The point allocations both given and required are a benefit to me but what scares me is that might change and I'd be on the losing side instead of the winning side as I am now. It's been an interesting day. Goodnight all.


----------



## tombo

Many were scratching their heads wondering why DVC left II. Perhaps they had advance warning from their previous employee who helped Marriott design the points program that in the near future DVC members wouldn't be able to exchange for Marriott weeks. Without Marriott inventory II is much less attractive to DVC members.

Forget DVC access to Marriott inventory through II, with the upcoming changes even Marriott owners who don't convert to points will have limited access to Marriott inventory through II. Weeks owners exchanging access is being severelly limited because of the new points program, II's access to prime inventory is history, and DVC exchanges are gone to all Marriott owners and/or points members. Without DVC and with limited Marriott access, II might become a historical event.


----------



## MOXJO7282

RandR said:


> Except for the fact that it may now be harder to get the prime weeks in your season.



To me I still don't know if we're making more of this than we should be. The above statement is the $64,000 question. Will we still be able to get II exchanges and reservations for prime weeks at our home resorts?

If owners can't then hopefully they won't join either and II will continue to be the vehicle to exchange through. Why would anyone join just to pay extra to get an exchange they get through II. 

Unless of course Marriott controls the inventory and you can't get an exchange through II or at 13 or 12 months  



I have most my reservations for 2011, so I won't know personally on my big weeks until 1/11, but I do need to reserve my GO golds end of July using the 13 month rule, so I'll see how that goes. I doubt I'll have a problem because I'm not looking for prime weeks so I do't expect that to reveal much to me.


----------



## heathpack

Serina said:


> I wonder how similiar this is to the Disney points system. Any thoughts?
> 
> We've been happy with DVC...have been happy with our Marriott resales too - not sure about the changes though.



This is _very_ different from DVC in that a given DVC resort will always have a set number of points associated with it.  For example, if the points associated with all the units in all the weeks at (say) AKV is 1 million per year, this can NEVER change.  DVC can change the points required for a given night or week, but if they make one day or week "cost" more points then some other day or week will "cost" less.  The total number of points needed for all owners to book a given resort in a year is always the same.  New resorts may have higher points requirements, but your home resort will always have the same total number of points.  And the total yearly points allocation for other current DVC resorts is a known, fixed entity.  So you can continue to use those resorts with your current owned points and have a pretty good idea of the points you will need. 

In this new Marriott system, points are not tied to anything real.  Marriott can increase requirements as high as they would like.  Your owned week will always get you a week at your home resort.  But you have no way of knowing how many points it will take in 10 years to get in to _any_ Marriott property, old or new.  You have no way of knowing how many points Marriott will decide to assign to your owned week.  There are no rules that govern what Marriott may do in regards to the points system (other than those set by Marriott, of course).

H


----------



## Ann in CA

Serina said:


> Does anyone know the point value of platinum Grande Ocean and gold Newport Coast? Thanks in advance - I'm having computer glitches on the website.


Copied and pasted from the website chart...Hard to read, but weeks and weekday points listed by season.  EDITED--I think this is actually the chart for exchanging INTO an MVCI resort.  I copied it last night in case I couldn't get in today, and the lowest amount for Waiohai is same as our points the enrollment page gives us.  But on going back to this page, it appears to be the points required for each season to go to that resort.  Sorry...still can't access the other chart.

Grand Ocean
Jan 7 – Jan 27 
Dec 2 – Dec 22 Jan 6 – Jan 26Nov 30 – Dec 20 
Fri – Sat 225 275 
Sun – Thur 75 125 
Full Week 825 1,175 
Jan 28 – Mar 24 
Oct 28 – Dec 1 Jan 27 – Mar 22Oct 26 – Nov 29 
Fri – Sat 525 600 
Sun – Thur 200 250 
Full Week 2,050 2,450 
Mar 25 – May 26 
Aug 26 – Oct 27 Mar 23 – May 24Aug 24 – Oct 25 
Fri – Sat 850 1,000 
Sun – Thur 350 400 
Full Week 3,450 4,000 
May 27 – Aug 25 May 25 – Aug 23 
Fri – Sat 1,125 1,325 
Sun – Thur 450 550 
Full Week 4,500 5,400 
Dec 23 – Dec 29 Dec 21 – Dec 27 
Fri – Sat 525 600 
Sun – Thur 200 250 
Full Week 2,050 2,450 
Dec 30 – Jan 5† Dec 28 – Jan 3† 
Fri – Sat 525 600 
Sun – Thur 200 250 
Full Week 2,050 2,450 

Newport Coast Villas

2011 2012 Day* 2-Bedroom 
Jan 7 – Jun 2 
Sep 16 – Dec 22 Jan 6 – May 31Sep 14 – Dec 20 
Fri – Sat 700 
Sun – Thur 300 
Full Week 2,900 
Jun 3 – Jun 23 
Aug 12 – Sep 15 Jun 1 – Jun 21Aug 10 – Sep 13 
Fri – Sat 1,050 
Sun – Thur 425 
Full Week 4,225 
Jun 24 – Jun 30 
Jul 8 – Aug 11 Jun 22 – Jun 28Jul 6 – Aug 9 
Fri – Sat 1,175 
Sun – Thur 475 
Full Week 4,725 
Jul 1 – Jul 7 Jun 29 – Jul 5 
Fri – Sat 1,400 
Sun – Thur 575 
Full Week 5,675 
Dec 23 – Dec 29 Dec 21 – Dec 27 
Fri – Sat 1,175 
Sun – Thur 475 
Full Week 4,725 
Dec 30 – Jan 5† Dec 28 – Jan 3† 
Fri – Sat 1,225 
Sun – Thur 500 
Full Week 4,950


----------



## tombo

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.



If they are actually allocating all the points to members (questionable since there are apparently some resorts where owners can't even get enough points to trade for a week in their season at their home resort), but they are allocating the points in a manner where no member has access to points equal to prime in season weeks, whoopee. Yes they might arguably be allocating all points, but they are doing it in a manner which prevents all platinum owners from getting the value of a prime week at any resort other than their home resort.

Let's make this easy and show how Marriott is allocating points per season at some resorts. If Platinum season at a resort has 20 weeks total (18-38), and 10 are worth 6000 points each (23 to 32),  and 10 are worth 5000 (18-22 and 33 to 38), that is 110,000 total points for the season. If every platinum season owner gets allocated 5500 points a year (about what Marriott is doing), yes Marriott is giving out 100% of the points for platinum season. What a deal. 

Half of the platinum weeks are worth 6000 points, yet not a single owner of a platinum week will receive 6000 points for depositing their week. Marriott will receive 6000 points from exchangers for numerous trades, but they will not give one single owner 6000 points for depositing their week. So none of the the platinum owners can reserve a prime 6000 point comparable week at another resort unless they borrow some points from the future, save some for the past ( not sure how long the new points are good for), or unless they buy more points. Half of the owners have rights to 6000 point weeks each year, but not a single platinum owner will get 6000 points for depositing their week in the RCI points exchange program. In the points program only Marriott gets full value annually for a prime week, never the owners.


----------



## Pit

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.



That's how it should be; however, there are many posts here (such as the one below) which contradict this view. If owners are receiving 4075 pts, then that ought to be the average "cost" within the season. The average in the case below is somewhere between 4125 and 4650, much higher than 4075.



ArtsieAng said:


> The lowest amount of points needed to reserve any 2 bdrm, OV week in platinum season at the Aruba Surf & Ocean Clubs is 4,125 points. It goes from 4,125 - 4,650....Platinum Plus weeks are 6,250 - 6,875.
> 
> Marriott is only giving us 4,075 points. We do not have enough points to reserve ANY week in our season. Unless I am reading this chart incorrectly?


----------



## DanCali

SMB1 said:


> They are not pocketing it.  There are others depositing a 5000 point week and getting 5250 for it.  You receive the average for the season, which means Marriott loses on some and makes on others.



Try computing the average of the season before you say this...

Just look at posts from hawaii owners with float 1-50 - they get less than it costs to trade back in. The sam egoes for Plat Plus owners who own a single fixed week. Marriott has turned this into a financial marketplace with a bid-ask spread and Marriott being the marketmaker pocketing the profits.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Tug will have a 90% negative sentiment because we all game the current system, but that day is over starting tomorrow.  The average Marriott customer will make the change and test drive it and that will make it work.



I'd say the sentiment in the peculation thread was 50%-50%, probably 70%-30% in favor of Marriott if you exclude Perry's posts...

Now some of Marriott's biggest fans are using word like "turd" in their posts when referring to this program. Many people were optimistic, gave it a chance, and most were let down...


----------



## Superchief

*Impact on Location Priorities*

I am interested how the villa location priorities will be impacted by this new system. Will home resort owners still receive priority over the 'point' users?

I am currently at Mountainside and plan to attend a meeting with the GM regarding the new system on Tuesday afternoon.


----------



## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.



seems to me that the largest group of owners on this forum find themselves short of points when it comes time to reserve. 

The problem is, unless it's reported here, Marriott does not disclose the total points they are giving out. It's not possible to say that the point totals balance without that bit of information. I think that since all but one owner is reporting a shortage when it comes to points given vs points recieved, the abundance of proof would lead on to believe that Marriott is in fact skimming points. 

In the end it doesn't really matter. The vast majority of TUGGERS are smart enough that when they find themselves shorted of the necessary points to reserve any week in their season, it's not a worthwhile program to participate in. Should you feel that it's an equitable program, one in which you perhaps recieve the points required to reserve your desired week at your home resort, then feel free to sign up. Just remember, Marriott has reserved the right to reassign value to the weeks based on demand. That Silver season week could become high enough in demand that it requires platinum level points. 

Thanks but no thanks Marriott. We agreed to a specific price, specific unit size, specific view AND specific seasons/weeks we can reserve. I'll hold you to that agreement. I'll also take the stand that since the vast majority of TUGGERS are reporting shortages in points received vs points required, Marriott is taking a little off the top. Until I start seeing TUGGERS report overages then I'll continue to see it as an advantage to Marriott and disadvantage to owners.

Marriott would have been light years ahead if they had just used the KISS principle. All units of same size, view and season were assigned the same number of points. Marriott has convoluted the system in such a way that they've been able to do away with seasons AND allow themselves the luxury of reasigning valuations at a later date based upon demand. You'll never again know with any certainty if you own enough points to reserve the unit you want during the timeframe you want to vacation. It's going to always be a moving target in the new system. But of course you always have the option to buy more points. Get rid of points if/when the levels required to obtain the unit you want well.......that's another story. This is a one way street and Marriott is driving the bus. IMHO, driving it right over the cliff but, it's their bus to drive. I'm just not going to be a passenger.

Of course, we could all pay Marriott's fee's, join the program and sit back and wait until the points Marriott gives us are adaquate or even in excess of what's required for the weeks we want. But wait! Marriott has stated they can reasign the points they give you for your week as well! Maybe we should all join just to see if Marriott increases the points we get for our weeks and lowers the points required for the weeks in our old seasons! I'm sure everyone here will agree that's what's bound to happen in future years. Shell out cash now for a kiss and a promise from Marriott.


----------



## DanaTom

*conversion to pts... can it be transferred to new owner?*

sorry if someone already commented on this.  If I opt in and pay the fee for ability to convert to points, is my timeshare grandfathered if I re-sell it?   And, will the same be true for both developer and resale shares?

personally, I assume the MVC trading as we've known it will be changed forever going forward.... but, the points do offer an additional option.  For that, we will have to pay a fee to join.   If the conversion is transferable through a resale, then there should remain some added value to marketability and sale price obtainable on a going forward basis.   Because of this (if it's true) I may give in to Marriott and pay the fee before that option is gone.   I guess I have until the end of the year to decide.


----------



## bw3

DanaTom said:


> sorry if someone already commented on this.  If I opt in and pay the fee for ability to convert to points, is my timeshare grandfathered if I re-sell it?   And, will the same be true for both developer and resale shares?
> 
> personally, I assume the MVC trading as we've known it will be changed forever going forward.... but, the points do offer an additional option.  For that, we will have to pay a fee to join.   If the conversion is transferable through a resale, then there should remain some added value to marketability and sale price obtainable on a going forward basis.   Because of this (if it's true) I may give in to Marriott and pay the fee before that option is gone.   I guess I have until the end of the year to decide.



Marriott usually charges a 25% commission on resales.  If they are selling your converted points, that may work well for you.  But they may devalue your points at their discretion at any time.  With the way they have changed the rules, would you really trust them?


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> You do understand that under the new system, as in any points system, the range of weeks covered by a deeded ownership include some that will carry high point values - holidays, summer weeks - and some lower but still in that season as originally outlined. So while your deed has the right to reserve one of the higher point value weeks you cannot and do not get that value every year. Instead they take the TOTAL points generated for all weeks in that season, divide by the total use periods & the resulting average per week is what you receive. So you are getting a fair distribution of point value covering your true share based on the week / season purchased. To further ensure that you get what you have coming they also do not charge you the actual "outside" value for those weeks - even the higher point value ones - if you use your own resort. You get the time for the value of your deeded ownership (and actually don't even have to use points to do that).
> 
> Once you step outside your home resort you do need to pay the true rate. You can easily do that by pooling, borrowing, renting or just owning more points than your original deed entitled you to.  Now by carefully spreading those points through all the process and all the options it should be possible to get the exact use you want at various resorts and maximize the value of what you own.  That is what we have found with other points based exchanges and no reason to think Marriott would work any differently.
> 
> You are getting a fair shake. The days of playing the system for free upgrades goes away. A known value system with hopefully better access to desired times (as owners are more careful with what they spend their limited points for rather than grabbing the best and biggest even just to trade) is what a good points system buys you. It does cost more than the old place & hope weeks type trades but is far easier to utilize and understand for most buyers. More like hotel reservations.



But this is hardly the case. As far as i can tell, nobody is getting the average of their season. Not even Platinum Plus fixed weeks who have an effective season of 1 week. 

Everyone is paying a bid-ask spread.


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## Dave M

Dana Tom - If you sell after joining the points program, the new owner doesn't get access to points unless the buyer pays a hefty fee. And if you sell a resale that is not currently eligible for points (because your purchase closes after June 20), it appears the new owner would also not be eligible for the points program.


----------



## DanCali

RandR said:


> But if people do a request first then Marriott can't touch it correct?  I have never done a request first so I am not sure about the details.  If someone does a request first does that mean their week doesn't show up until there is a match?  If this is yes, then if most people do a request first, inventory won't show for trading purposes.



Inventory will be on hold, but ine successful exchange will trigger many others.

The biggest problem with request first are (i) you need to be prepared to use if you don't get the exchange and (ii) the requested exchange has to fall before your week starts for extenal exchanges (not for Marriotts).


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## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> I'd say the sentiment in the peculation thread was 50%-50%, probably 70%-30% in favor of Marriott if you exclude Perry's posts...
> 
> Now some of Marriott's biggest fans are using word like "turd" in their posts when referring to this program. Many people were optimistic, gave it a chance, and most were let down...




When there's a 500 pound gorilla in the room, it's best not to ignore it. 

I was a HUGE Marriott backer. Now that I've seen the plan.....not so much. What can I say, in one stroke of the pen Marriott moved me from supporting them to supporting Perry. If you've followed Perry and my posts, that's not necessarily and easy thing to do. Perry and I have debated various subjects for a long time. This may be the first time we're on the same page.


----------



## taffy19

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group. There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for. To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.


I understand what you are explaining because the seasons are evened out. It may be true too that competition will not be as fierce as some people are afraid of because people now reserve what they need and not try to get the best weeks for the best exchanges in the new system.

It's starting to sound more positive. The one bad thing is that re-sale buyers are no longer able to convert to the new system but they can open enrollment again at a later date for whatever conversion fee Marriott feels they can sell it for.

Once new resorts will be added, the competition for some locations will be getting more fierce because of so many new people that will be buying at new resorts in a trust as they may want to travel to these locations where the older resorts are but we don't have to worry about this for at least a few years.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> But this is hardly the case. As far as i can tell, nobody is getting the average of their season. Not even Platinum Plus fixed weeks who have an effective season of 1 week.
> 
> Everyone is paying a bid-ask spread.




Excellent point. It's hard to say there's no skim when there's a season of 1 week and the points given are less than the points taken for the same week. I wonder how Marriott can explain this minor factoid? It becomes very obvious that the points are only balancing on Marriott's balance sheet when they use those extra points to snag desirable units to rent. Rather than take notes from other successful points system, Marriott seems to be copying RCI's policy of take and rent.


----------



## MRMarriott

*The Price of Everything (Read the Book)!*

I am still amazed that in the initial reaction everyone is overwhelmingly concerned about the number of points they get for electing and the # of points for prime weeks in their season.

I was worried myself with MountainSide, but the math works. My season ranges from 4450 to 6900. Work out the total number of points and divide and that's the number you get. It seems to be working with each club I check.

So, then you say, you're worried you can't get prime weeks. But no one said that for any given year you couldn't just elect to book under the weeks program. Marriott didn't take the option away.

But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks! 

Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add... 

So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.

The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price. 

Marriott raises the price of premium weeks and everyone is crying foul, but can you honestly tell me that you got the week you wanted every single time you tried? If yes, you're either lying or you're not an owner in Newport Platinum or MountainSide Ski.  100% of owners try for summer in Newport, and 50% get it. Now, with a higher price, vacationers will think hard and decide if it's worth the money - making it easier to book weeks if you're willing to pay. Read the book "The Price of Everything" and you'll see it makes sense. 

Another great benefit is staying 5 nights (Sun-Thurs). In some of the scenarios I've worked out, I can use my one week worth of points and get two villas in my season for 5 nights, essentially using a 7 night ownership and getting 10 nights use out of it. That's not a bad deal. 

One more thing: Imagine "super prime week owners." Those owners who own Sundance in MountainSide or Christmas in Maui. They paid so much money all they would do is go year after year! Why would they do anything else??? 

Now Marriott says, "Here's 10,000 points. Have fun!" You think they wouldn't be tempted to get 3 weeks elsewhere or take a couple of cruises? It sounds like a good deal to me. And then suddenly, a Sundance or Christmas week that would NEVER have been available is on the market for those willing to pay. Again, it would NEVER be available in the old system, because there was never anything as enticing for the owners of it.  

I think it's naturally to see change happen and think, "how am I getting screwed?" In the end, the only thing that matters is, "will I get the week I want? Will it be easier?" 

If it is, then Marriott wins.


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## davidvel

tombo said:


> Marriott has it covered. If points members book up all prime weeks at your homr resort in your season and you have the worst week at your home resort in your season available for you to reserve, then they have fullfilled their contractual obligation. They can make sure points has access to all prime weeks before those who won't convert and *still be honoring their contract* if there are ANY in season weeks available to owners.



What contract? The deed and its covenants control.


----------



## DanaTom

Dave M said:


> Dana Tom - If you sell after joining the points program, the new owner doesn't get access to points unless the buyer pays a hefty fee. And if you sell a resale that is not currently eligible for points (because your purchase closes after June 20), it appears the new owner would also not be eligible for the points program.



Dave, 
Is that in the new contract, that the converted share/points are not transferable?   If so, they really did another dagger to the resale market.  MVC really does then hate the resale account.


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## tombo

davidvel said:


> What contract? The deed and its covenants control.



Excuse me, I meant honoring what you were deeded.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Are you saying that Marriott is not giving the full points value x the # of intervals and then renting the excess point value to benefit them?



Yes, this is exactly what is happening...


----------



## bw3

*used to be a Marriott fan*



dougp26364 said:


> When there's a 500 pound gorilla in the room, it's best not to ignore it.
> 
> I was a HUGE Marriott backer. Now that I've seen the plan.....not so much. What can I say, in one stroke of the pen Marriott moved me from supporting them to supporting Perry. If you've followed Perry and my posts, that's not necessarily and easy thing to do. Perry and I have debated various subjects for a long time. This may be the first time we're on the same page.



Doug, I agree.  I used to be a Marriott fan.  I am practically a lifetime platinum member in the rewards program.  And I thought Perry was a bit over the top with negative perspectives.  But you are correct, Marriott just went beyond my wildest imagination.  A spread for deposit vs reservation, are you kidding me?!?!?  Then there is the plan of jacking up maintenance fees based upon points.  I am so irate with Marriott, I want to fire them as property manager at all vacation resorts.  Let them come begging us to have the resort.  

Let me summarize the plan.............MARRIOTT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MountainGal

Still attempting to determine whether the 13 month rule for reservations will apply to owners that do not convert to point.  I've read some of the documentation provided throughout the posts, but it only addresses owners that convert.  I own resale Desert Springs currently and in process of purchasing another.  Sure hope the reservation system doesn't change for those not converting to points.  Any thoughts on this?


----------



## LAX Mom

Question about resale points..........
I called MVCI today and asked some questions about the new system. One matter they couldn't answer is what happens with Marriott resale points. For example, I buy points from Marriott this coming week and then next fall I need to sell them for some reason. If I sell these points on ebay will the new owner be able to use the points system?

The Marriott rep I spoke with tried to find out what would happen if I wanted to sell my Marriott points. He talked to a couple of supervisors and couldn't get an answer. He said they don't currently have a resale department set up but will consider it in the future. They have considered having a couple of outside agencies they could refer you to, but nothing is in place at this time.

I asked him "Why would anyone consider buying something that they can't sell down the road when their circumstances change?" He agreed that I had a point and that they don't have the answer to this problem yet.

Have any of you figured out what happens when you want to sell the points you purchase from Marriott? Can the new owner use points with all the Marriott benefits?


----------



## hipslo

MRMarriott said:


> But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks!
> 
> Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add...
> 
> So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.
> 
> The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price.
> 
> Marriott raises the price of premium weeks and everyone is crying foul, but can you honestly tell me that you got the week you wanted every single time you tried? If yes, you're either lying or you're not an owner in Newport Platinum or MountainSide Ski..



In your example, you acknowledge that the 75 points owners have a higher chance at getting the premium weeks, but at the same time you say that weeks owners have not been adversely affected.  How do you reconcile those two (inconsistent) statements?

Also, I was told over the phone today that there are NOT two pools, there is only a single pool, though the number of reservations out of that pool available to points is limited.  Which means there is no week by week allocation between weeks and points. 

By the way, I am an owner (multiple week) at mountainside ski, and have always received the weeks I requested.  I have no plans to convert to points, and I doubt that will continue to be the case.


----------



## davidvel

tombo said:


> Excuse me, I meant honoring what you were deeded.


thanks tombo, just trying to keep things clear!

I haven't been able to keep up (I'm on vacation not the office..)



MRMarriott said:


> But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks!
> 
> Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add...
> 
> So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.



Where is is documented that there are separate "pools?" And if there are how are they reserved/allocated? (ie. who get the best weeks?)


----------



## mjbaran

scrapngen said:


> No, it is NOT true.
> 
> You will lose a yearly fee ($165 or more) for being in the new point system even if you choose not to exchange.



After speaking with a travel advisor today, it's my understanding the $165 annual fee covers your annual II membership fee, any lockoff fees ($75 each) and any Marriott to Marriott exchange fees. You would only pay an additional exchange fee to II if you exchanged into a non-Marriott property.

So the $165 annual fee would seem to be a good deal if you typically locked off your unit then traded into other Marriott properties through II. Plus you get the 800 points (one time use) to be used in 2011. Yet you maintain the flexibility use the points system in the future if you so choose.

Marriott has purchased all existing unsold inventory to populate the points system. By "enrolling" into the points program, existing owners are not obligated to use the points system. You can continue to reserve your home resort or trade (even up-trade) through II as you do today. Points based inventory and weeks based inventory in II are separate. As long as weeks based owners deposit into II those weeks will be available to other weeks owners and not available to those owning or converting to points.

If you want to stay at your home resort, converting to points has no advantage.. However for $695 you you buy the option to convert in the future if you wish and hedge against a higher enrollment fee in the future. As noted above the annual $165 is essentially a wash. The $695 for multiple weeks is like buying cheap insurance against rising future costs of enrollment and maintains the option of flexibility if your individual usage needs/wants change.

I'm not a proponent of the points system for my individual needs, since I feel Marriott is not providing current owners with the full value for their owned units. But the price of future flexibility is fairy small.


----------



## bw3

*Crying Foul*

Yes, when you were getting the assigned weeks at your agreed upon maintenance fee and Marriott tries to work a scam to take it away, an owner should be irate.  If Marriott takes 300-1,200 points away from you on every exchange and raises the maintenance fee, you would be foolish to just stand by and say it is OK or fair.  Marriott is now going to attempt to charge me 4,500 points for each week from May 27-June 17.  I sometimes get those weeks now.  But they will always give me 3,325 for gold Grande Ocean with the luxury of trading 3 weeks for 2, for the privelege of getting those weeks.  It is important to let all owners know they are getting screwed.  Some will not get it and they will sign up for this rip-off.  But we need to save those that we can.


----------



## hipslo

MountainGal said:


> Still attempting to determine whether the 13 month rule for reservations will apply to owners that do not convert to point.  I've read some of the documentation provided throughout the posts, but it only addresses owners that convert.  I own resale Desert Springs currently and in process of purchasing another.  Sure hope the reservation system doesn't change for those not converting to points.  Any thoughts on this?



The mvci website indicates that multiple week owners who do not convert can continue to reserve at 13 months as under the current rules.  The issue, as I see it, is increased competition, at 13 months, from any points owner who holds at least 6500 points (or 6900, in the case of mountainside, which is the amount of points required to reserve the best weeks). We will no longer be competing against only those who own weeks at our home resort at 13 months.  I suspect this will result in reservations for the best weeks becoming much more difficult, even at 13 months. It is the euqivalent of anyone who makes a deposit in II with suficient trade power under the current system being able to snag a week at your home resort on equal footing with you, 13 months in advance.  

The whole concept of home resort priority appears to be  pretty much out the window, even for those who *don't* convert to points.


----------



## Dave M

MRMarriott said:


> So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.
> 
> The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price.


You are correct, assuming there are only *100 owners in total* at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.


----------



## Werner Weiss

heathpack said:


> In this new Marriott system, points are not tied to anything real.  Marriott can increase requirements as high as they would like.  Your owned week will always get you a week at your home resort.  But you have no way of knowing how many points it will take in 10 years to get in to _any_ Marriott property, old or new.  You have no way of knowing how many points Marriott will decide to assign to your owned week.  There are no rules that govern what Marriott may do in regards to the points system (other than those set by Marriott, of course).


What heathpack wrote is scary. Unfortunately -- and I hope I'm wrong -- it appears to be true.

I've looked through various online documents trying to find *language that protects owners* who opt for the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program against point chart adjustments that devalue exchange points over time.

I've been unsuccessful.

I would not object to point chart changes that reallocate points to keep demand even. (That's what Disney Vacation Club does.) But the total number of points over the period of a year should not change!

For example... If a resort has two six month seasons, with higher season weeks set at 3,400 points and lower season weeks set at 2,600 points, I would not object if the point requirements are adjusted to 3,800 and 2,200 points, respectively, if it turns out the the demand is out of balance. In other words, if the chart goes *up* one place, it goes *down* elsewhere in such a way that there's no net change in total points across the year.

Using the example above, if the high season went *up* to 3,800 points, but the low season *remained* at 2,600 points, the effect would be to devalue points. And, of course, it would be even worse if the high season went *up* to 3,800 points and the low season went *up* to 3,000 points.

Has anyone found language that protects the value of the annual allocation of exchange points?

Or is heathpack correct (as I fear is the case)?

To me this would be the difference between a system that is worth considering and one that should absolutely be avoided!


----------



## hipslo

davidvel said:


> Where is is documented that there are separate "pools?" And if there are how are they reserved/allocated? (ie. who get the best weeks?)



There is no such document, so far as I have seen.  And the allocation is purely "first come/ first serve", according to the rep I spoke with over the phone today.

I hope she is wrong.  She certainly didnt seem sure.


----------



## hipslo

Dave M said:


> You are correct, assuming there are only *100 owners in total* at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.



Dave - what makes you reach that conclusion? Anything specific?


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Ok. I see that now.  Under a points system like DVC the number of points sold always has to equal the number of points to reserve through the year.  The total points is the same but the distribution can change.
> 
> What people are saying under the overlay system the number of points sold does not equal the number of points to reserve through the year.  It takes more points to reserve the year than points obtained if everyone converted.
> 
> If that is the case then I would call that a rip off.  Or maybe a bad deal.  You are exchanging for flexibility and access to the new resorts, but you are not seeing the true cost.  It is the fee plus the total devaluation.
> 
> I guess the only way to tell is to multiply out the current calendar by the points offered vs. the points to exchange for each resort.  I wonder if anyone has access to all the info?  We can do the exchange piece, but would need input from other week owners that have other seasons at the resorts.




It is actualy much more than that... Marriott takes the lost value and can rent ot out for profit.

Take a very simple example. Assume for a second only two resorts and both all 2BR. Both resorts are float 1-52. Now each owner gets 5000 points, but it costs 6000 points to trade into their season. 

Suppose only two owners trade to theother resort so they can get only 5 nights as follows:

Owner 1 trades from resort A to resort B for 5 nights using 5000 points. 
Owner 2 trades from resort B to resort A for 5 nights using 5000 points. 

All the other owners stay at their home resort.

So now there are 2 nights at each resort that go unused. Guess who benefits from this? Marriott can come in and rent those units probably at 75 days out or so.

Now assume 2 owners turn into 20,000...


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> ... The vast majority of TUGGERS are smart enough that when they find themselves shorted of the necessary points to reserve any week in their season, it's not a worthwhile program to participate in. Should you feel that it's an equitable program, one in which you perhaps recieve the points required to reserve your desired week at your home resort, then feel free to sign up. ... Thanks but no thanks Marriott. We agreed to a specific price, specific unit size, specific view AND specific seasons/weeks we can reserve.



I'm so confused reading your posts.  If you enroll in the points system you ARE able to reserve any week in your season at your home resort in the exact same way you always have, with the exact same "subject to availability" caveat that's always been in place.  (Granted, the addition of Points owners who can now book at non-owned resorts at the same time as Weeks owners will impact availability, but that impact is across the board and everyone will be affected by it.)  *The points charts are for exchange usage, not home resort usage.*  This from the FAQ has been copied here already but it doesn't appear from what you're posting that you've seen it:

*Does anything change after I enroll my week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?

None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. ...*

*****

The way I'm reading all these posts about "skimming" is separate from what I keep reading in all of Doug's posts.  I understand what's being talked about with "skimming" - I don't understand why Doug keeps insisting that home resort usage is impacted in the way he says it is.


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.



John,

here is another post that will hopefully make you see the point...

"Underhanded" and "value grab" are EXACTLY the right words for this.



NJDave said:


> At Cypress Harbour, we don't even get enough points to book any week in our season.  *We are allocated 2,650 *points but it takes at least 2,675 to reserve any week.  The average value should have been 2,828 rounded to 2,825.  I think we are being penalized since this resort is sold out and not in Marriott's inventory.
> 
> Week         Points
> 
> 1	    2,675
> 2	    2,675
> 3	    2,675
> 4	    2,675
> 5	    3,225
> 6	    2,900
> 7	    2,900
> 8	    2,900
> 9	    2,900
> 10	    2,900
> 11	    2,900
> 12	    2,900
> 13	    2,675
> 14	    2,675
> 15	    2,675
> 16	    2,675
> 17	    2,675
> 51	    2,900
> 52	    3,225
> 
> *Average Value 2,828*


----------



## crosbyu

*Questions from a newby*

From what I can tell so far it is a fleecing of the current owners and a deathblow to Interval.  I am not happy about it as far as I can tell.  For example, I used to be able to do a direct exchange for another property regardless of value if it was available.  This will not be the case any longer.  I read the FAQ's and it said the inventory for this program will come from those exchanging for Marriott Reward points and those exchanging through INTERVAL.  I take that to mean that if it is available through Interval then Marriott will gobble it up instead of allowing Interval to trade you straight out.

I also read where owners that have purchased through third parties can eventually get credit for Marriott reward points.  This is a direct contradiction to what we were told when we bought at Horizons in Orlando back in 2000.  They said those benefits would not be available if you sold your property to a third party vendor and someone bought the property through them.  The benefits of MVC ownership were non-transferable. Am I missing anything here?  Or am I not seeing the big picture?


----------



## taffy19

Dave M said:


> You are correct, assuming there are only *100 owners in total* at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, *the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first* - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.


This is exactly what we went through as single week owners when the 13 months' rule (a perk to multiple week owners and a fantastic sales's tool for the Marriott) came into effect. We lost 50% chance to reserve the week we wanted when we made the call at 6 AM PST sharp and now it is going to happen again. You still will be getting reservations in your deeded season, if you want to stay at your resort, but getting the holiday weeks (school vacations or other holidays) will be difficult to get when all other resort owners will be competing with you and when more resorts are added later.

PS. We should hire an attorney together to interpret the contract and documents for each resort to us but you need someone who understands the system. Are there any volunteers?


----------



## csalter2

*Wow!!! Read before you leap*

I must share with you that this morning I had a long discussion with a sales rep and I don't have the same level of anxiety that many seem to have. I read post after post and I must tell you that maybe I missed something on the phone. 

First, I must share with you that I was told that if I wanted to keep things as they were, I could. 

Secondly, I was told that since I was an owner already with Marriott, I could join the points program and still have all of the previous options plus extra flexibility. I like that. I liked not paying for lock offs to II and exchanging to another Marriott. I saw that as a benefit. 

Thirdly, I was told how many points I would receive for my 2 bedroom floating week mountain view Ko Olina property. I would receive 4025 points for it. I did not know what that meant until I asked for platinum time for seven days at other resorts like Lakeshore Reserve and DSVI. Upon comparing I realized that for me, I would do very well for most properties except Maui. I did not like that realization.  However, I did ask when I noticed that I would be 545 points short if I wanted to reserve my own place the following year. For example, in the weeks system, I could reserve one week in the studio and then the second week in the one bedroom for two weeks. With the points system it's 1900 for the studio and 2650 for the one bedroom so the two weeks would cost me 4550 points. I asked the rep about this 545 point shortfall. He explained that for the year I wanted to stay, I would just book like I did weeks and it would not be a problem. However, if I gave my week up to points and wanted to go back later on the next year to stay after I gave up my week to points, it would cost me.  So if you want to stay in your resort don't turn that year into points. 

I must say that with no kids in the house anymore, I was thinking about what to do since I won't really need two bedrooms. This change seems good. I own Diamond Resorts International (DRI) and am used to point systems. Many of the Marriott options I have with DRI. The difference is that DRI has a home resort reservation advantage. With DRI I have the 13 month reservation advantage for resorts in my home collection. I like that a lot. Also, with DRI if you make reservations under 60 days it costs half the points.  That is a really, really great benefit.

Please note that using these points for anything other than accommodations will result in a loss. You have flexibility at a loss of what your fees will be. If you take a cruise or go on an African Safari, you will not be getting your full value for your points. Remember that. 

Also, please understand that the dues and maintenance fees with continue to rise each year. What's $1200 this year will be $1240 or more the next and will increase all the time. When you buy more points understand that your maintenance fees will increase with it. The dues are $166 this year and they will be $169 next year and will increase after that. 

I share this to warn you because I have experience with DRI. New owners into Marriott will only be able to buy points. They will need to buy more points to be able to really vacation. It will be $10 per point very soon. That will be expensive. Remember 2000 points will be $20,000. Depending on your flexibility with your family's vacation schedule you could be in trouble. It won't get you prime summer weeks in most of the nice places unless it's a studio. So people will have to buy more points to really be able to take advantage of the great accommodations. 

Everyone must be aware of what this is truly all about. This is about making money for Marriott. I am not saying that they do not have owners' interests in their thoughts, but this will provide a steady stream of income. Every owner in the points program will pay $166 plus every single year.  If you sell your unit, the new owners will need to pay into the points system as it will not be transferable. This will help Marriott and its employees. Nothing wrong with that, but just keep this in mind. 

I have not decided if I will be joining as of yet. I need to read more on it and consider my vacation goals for the future. I am on the fence. I see good, but I have that DRI experience so I know the pitfalls. 

One last thing... I have been with DRI since they took over Sunterra. I have not seen a change in point allocations on the units over the last 10 years. They have completed upgraded and significantly changed some units in some of the resorts and they have increased those rooms allocations. However, they still have rooms that have the old point allocation as well.


----------



## jlr10

So this is how this plays out for us:  

We own Summer week DSVII. Value of points to us 1675. Points to stay there 1775.  100 point difference.  Cost to purchase 100 points ($9.20x100)=920.  So for $695, plus $165 annual fee, and the $920, the total cost for the first week to trade back into the desert during the summer months is $1,780, on top of my maintenance fee, and then only $1,085 for every other trade back, well until they devalue the points?  Doesn't sound like a great deal for a summer week in the desert.  Pretty sure I could find a great deal for that amount of money at that timeframe.

In the past we have traded into Waiohai 5 times, using 4 exchange reqests and 1 AC. Now we would have to deposit three weeks to get one week off season.  How is that a good deal for us?

People can say that it is equitable based on the value of the resorts, but the entire selling point of purchasing Marriott in the first place was the possibility of trading into a nice resort using our week.  With this points system there is no possibility, meaning zero, nada...We can't even exchange back for what we purchased.

Feelin' like this is just short of bait and switch.


----------



## DanCali

DanCali said:


> John,
> 
> here is another post that will hopefully make you see the point...
> 
> "Underhanded" and "value grab" are EXACTLY the right words for this.



And just to put this for rest, here is the calculation for NCV, where Platinum weeks (23-51 ecxcluding July 4 week) are *awarded 3475 points*.

Week		Points
3-Jun		4225
10-Jun		4225
17-Jun		4225
24-Jun		4725
1-Jul		NA-PP
8-Jul		4725
15-Jul		4725
22-Jul		4725
29-Jul		4725
5-Aug		4725
12-Aug		4225
19-Aug		4225
26-Aug		4225
2-Sep		4225
9-Sep		4225
16-Sep		2900
23-Sep		2900
30-Sep		2900
7-Oct		2900
14-Oct		2900
21-Oct		2900
28-Oct		2900
4-Nov		2900
11-Nov		2900
18-Nov		2900
25-Nov		2900
2-Dec		2900
9-Dec		2900
16-Dec		2900
23-Dec		4725
30-Dec		NA-PP


*Average for Plat weeks:	3706*

So is it a value grab? How about underhanded?


----------



## scrapngen

DanCali said:


> It is actualy much more than that... Marriott takes the lost value and can rent ot out for profit.
> 
> Take a very simple example. Assume for a second only two resorts and both all 2BR. Both resorts are float 1-52. Now each owner gets 5000 points, but it costs 6000 points to trade into their season.
> 
> Suppose only two owners trade to theother resort so they can get only 5 nights as follows:
> 
> Owner 1 trades from resort A to resort B for 5 nights using 5000 points.
> Owner 2 trades from resort B to resort A for 5 nights using 5000 points.
> 
> All the other owners stay at their home resort.
> 
> So now there are 2 nights at each resort that go unused. Guess who benefits from this? Marriott can come in and rent those units probably at 75 days out or so.
> 
> Now assume 2 owners turn into 20,000...



Thank you!   

I think this is a very apt way of explaining the dismay here with regard to the "skimming" and the concern that points awarded don't equate to  the value of the week owned. ie. the comparisons between amount of points awarded vs. amount of points needed to reserve. 

*I think most of the people using the point charts and disparity are aware that they will still be able to reserve their week as a week -even if the points are not "enough" *-  by not opting points in a given year and that they can reserve their week "same as always' if they don't join. At least, I am. I certainly would also think that many other TUGGERs who have been around far longer than I, and are also viewing these disparities negatively also understand this. The  problem that is addressed with the comparison is that their week does not get them an "equivalent week" at another resort with points - *therefore the system is not same for same with points making all values clear. Instead, it is Your value is automatically less 7% or more when you choose to exchange. *

Then there are two other problems whether or not they join!  1) They'll have to compete with more people for the same reservations at home resort due to the new points tiered system, thus lessening their chances for the better weeks if they don't use their points or choose not to join, or don't have enough points for the better tiers. Yes, they can spend even MORE money to buy more points - but not with what they currently have, except to borrow, thus affecting the next year. 2) It seems that most of the phone calls and initial reading of the documents seems to support the belief that Marriott can and will take inventory from II for their points reservations. Thus everyone's ability to trade weeks in II will be affected. - this goes to those who say you can still take your week and deposit it w/II and use the Marriott 24 day preference period to trade with other weeks deposited. While people are aguing that II must keep points and weeks separate, I have seen that contradicted even by phone calls to Marriott and II. So my hunch is that II will have fewer Marriott weeks avail. for trade, and that if Marriott wants a week that pops up in II, it will be gone before ever offered to a week trade. 

I see this as very similar to the Marriott Rewards devaluation that occurred before we purchased. Basically, the MR points allocated to my week don't reflect the comparable "value" of that week in two differing ways. My MF's are higher than the MR's. AND I cannot use the MR's to get anything comparable to the week I gave up. Therefore, I would be foolish to ever trade my HI week for Marriott Reward Points. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will, however, agree that I and others with fixed weeks are in a better position than many others, as I bought fixed weeks where I want to go. But floating week owners can lose in either system, the way I see it. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who gain here are those with 13000 points or more and  those who pay a number of fees every year for lock-off's/trades/etc.  For them, it would be pretty easy to see that the newer system would be better and  potentially *much* better than what they have now. I guess also those who can't utilize the current system for whatever reason. Kind of like those who know they don't get equal MR's to their MF's but still see it as a good deal because they can utilize it differently.  

I do think everyone should worry about how easy it is for the points/fees to change! And the voting rights. And any other fine print you sign off on by this contract.


----------



## Asia2000

LAX Mom said:


> Question about resale points..........
> I called MVCI today and asked some questions about the new system. One matter they couldn't answer is what happens with Marriott resale points. For example, I buy points from Marriott this coming week and then next fall I need to sell them for some reason. If I sell these points on ebay will the new owner be able to use the points system?
> 
> The Marriott rep I spoke with tried to find out what would happen if I wanted to sell my Marriott points. He talked to a couple of supervisors and couldn't get an answer. He said they don't currently have a resale department set up but will consider it in the future. They have considered having a couple of outside agencies they could refer you to, but nothing is in place at this time.
> 
> I asked him "Why would anyone consider buying something that they can't sell down the road when their circumstances change?" He agreed that I had a point and that they don't have the answer to this problem yet.
> 
> Have any of you figured out what happens when you want to sell the points you purchase from Marriott? Can the new owner use points with all the Marriott benefits?



LAX,

I think you touched on a vital topic here.  Who in their right mind would buy into a program without knowing what would happen if they had to sell?

It would be like buying a car, then driving it for two years, and then when it came time to sell it, finding out that the transmission cannot transfer or be sold to the new owner.

I'm surprised that with all of the TUG members on the phone with Marriott reps that nobody has asked this question or at least posted the answer.  There really could come a time when an owner will have to sell.  Certainly knowing the resale implications would be a requirement before purchasing into a new program.

If anyone has information, please post.


----------



## LAX Mom

Asia2000 said:


> LAX,
> 
> I think you touched on a vital topic here.  Who in their right mind would buy into a program without knowing what would happen if they had to sell?
> 
> It would be like buying a car, then driving it for two years, and then when it came time to sell it, finding out that the transmission cannot transfer or be sold to the new owner.
> 
> I'm surprised that with all of the TUG members on the phone with Marriott reps that nobody has asked this question or at least posted the answer.  There really could come a time when an owner will have to sell.  Certainly knowing the resale implications would be a requirement before purchasing into a new program.
> 
> If anyone has information, please post.



I was stunned that Marriott could not give me an answer on this question. The Marriott rep I spoke with was very informed about the points program and put me on hold twice to speak with supervisors about this question. He said they haven't worked out the details yet of what happens when someone sells points they have purchased from Marriott. Will the new owner be able to use the points system or will they have to pay an upgrade fee? What status does this resale owner of points have with Marriott?

Basically his answer is that Marriott hasn't decided what will happen when an owner sells his points. (Perhaps they think this is such a wonderful program that no one will ever want to sell?) He told me they have looked into a couple of possibilites, either a Marriott resale program (somewhat like they had with the weeks system) or a referral program to outside sales agents. But nothing is set up at the current time and they have not decided how resale owners of points will be treated!

I agree with analogy of the car. Who would spend $20,000+ without knowing what the options are to sell it once your circumstances change.


----------



## LAX Mom

One additional item I found out from the Marriott rep I spoke with on Sunday. Marriott points program has no "Flexchange" or reduced point values for reservations close to check-in date. Currently it takes full points to reserve a unit, even just days before check-in.


----------



## GaryDouglas

*Points Values*

In case anyone is keeping track of these, I was quoted the following today:

MOC(MMO) OF 2bdrm Suites 6450
MOC(MM1) OF 2bdrm Floating Villas 7475

I asked about the fixed units. They couldn't bring up the values, but said they varied based upon time of year.


----------



## LAX Mom

GaryDouglas said:


> In case anyone is keeping track of these, I was quoted the following today:
> 
> MOC(MMO) OF 2bdrm Suites 6450
> MOC(MMO) OF 2bdrm Floadting Villas 7475
> 
> I asked about the fixed units.  They couldn't bring up the values, but said they varied based upon time of year.



Is that points required to book a week or points Marriott gives you for your week? 

Maui Ocean Club (converted hotel) is higher than Ko'Olina? (Didn't I recently see someone posted Ko'Olina was just over 4,000.) The new units in Maui are code MM1, is that what you have designated as villas for 7475?


----------



## taffy19

GaryDouglas said:


> In case anyone is keeping track of these, I was quoted the following today:
> 
> MOC(MMO) OF 2bdrm Suites 6450
> MOC(MMO) OF 2bdrm Floadting Villas 7475
> 
> I asked about the fixed units. They couldn't bring up the values, but said they varied based upon time of year.


Week 12 is the same as yours. I posted the percentage in the "What is your percentage" thread.

PS. Gary, you can find the points to reserve at your resort here.


----------



## GaryDouglas

LAX Mom said:


> Is that points required to book a week or points Marriott gives you for your week?
> 
> Maui Ocean Club (converted hotel) is higher than Ko'Olina? (Didn't I recently see someone posted Ko'Olina was just over 4,000.) The new units in Maui are code MM1, is that what you have designated as villas for 7475?


 
Those are the quoted value of my units at MOC. The suites are the conversion units and the villas are the Lahaina and Napili towers (aka, Sequel). Here are the charts for the suites and villas at MOC and Ko Olina, although you may have to be logged into my-vacationclub to see them.

I find it curious that Waiohai does not have any ocean fronts noted in their chart. Wahiohai is one of the few places I would consider trading into, but never have because I would loose my OF view. Now with the new system, I still can't trade and get an OF. I guess I'll just stay put.


----------



## GaryDouglas

iconnections said:


> Week 12 is the same as yours. I posted the percentage in the "What is your percentage" thread.
> 
> PS. Gary, you can find the points to reserve at your resort here.


 
I was so wrapped up in getting up-to-date on this thread that I didn't even notice the What is your percentage thread. I updated it there too.  

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124222


----------



## JimIg23

Question on II trades:

If you join the point system, and reserve your week without points.  With the new II number you get, will you be able to deposit the week you reserved in II and still get the 24 day priority?


----------



## saturn28

JimIg23 said:


> Question on II trades:
> 
> If you join the point system, and reserve your week without points.  With the new II number you get, will you be able to deposit the week you reserved in II and still get the 24 day priority?



Yes you can.


----------



## Beverley

SueDonJ said:


> Oh!  DUH!  Of course!     Okay, now it makes sense.  Whew.



Regarding trading back in to your own resort ... and the higher point value.....

How about this scenario ... I have a lock off unit in Aruba:  I reserve my master portion to use within my season ... okay no problem so far ... while I am at it I split and reserve my studio portion ... okay still no problem.  Now the extra folks that were going to go with me can not come so I want to drop the studio portion into the points system .... How many points will I get for that studio????   

I was told via chat online that I would have to deposit the entire unit and get points assigned and then reserve the master.  So this would mean that I have to pay the point "penalty" since reserving the week using points is higher than reserving using ownership.  To put numbers to this:  My Aruba 2 bedrm is 3075 points.  To reserve the master via points is 2350 and the studio is 1600 (gold OV).  Therefore if I reserve my master as I am told I can do?  How many points will I get for the studio if my guests can not go and I need to drop it in somewhere rather than it go empty?  Will I get 3075 minus 2350?  If so I just lost my "home court" advantage.     Some how I think there should be an assignment for the studio separately for all lock off resorts.

Beverley


----------



## ArtsieAng

LAX Mom said:


> I was stunned that Marriott could not give me an answer on this question. The Marriott rep I spoke with was very informed about the points program and put me on hold twice to speak with supervisors about this question. He said they haven't worked out the details yet of what happens when someone sells points they have purchased from Marriott. Will the new owner be able to use the points system or will they have to pay an upgrade fee? What status does this resale owner of points have with Marriott?
> 
> Basically his answer is that Marriott hasn't decided what will happen when an owner sells his points. (Perhaps they think this is such a wonderful program that no one will ever want to sell?) He told me they have looked into a couple of possibilites, either a Marriott resale program (somewhat like they had with the weeks system) or a referral program to outside sales agents. But nothing is set up at the current time and they have not decided how resale owners of points will be treated!
> 
> I agree with analogy of the car. Who would spend $20,000+ without knowing what the options are to sell it once your circumstances change.



What happens if I join today, and buy resale points on ebay, a year from now? Since I'm already a member, do they simply get added to my total number of points?


----------



## ondeadlin

RandR said:


> But if people do a request first then Marriott can't touch it correct?  I have never done a request first so I am not sure about the details.  If someone does a request first does that mean their week doesn't show up until there is a match?  If this is yes, then if most people do a request first, inventory won't show for trading purposes.



Incorrect. Marriott will now have the right to pluck ANY week that ends up in Interval, whether it's via deposit or request first. Hence, there's a good chance the current inventory will be drastically reduced when Marriott starts pulling weeks for its point system. It won't happen immediately, there will likely be a gradual reduction in availability IMO.


----------



## JimIg23

Actually, I am going to wait until Marriott comes up with a game plan on resales for those who buy in.  If I will have a better chance of getting more value from my 2 EOYs in resale if I convert to points, I may do so only for that reason, just as long as I can still us and trade in II as I do now.

Also, once I stepped back from the initial response of they are devaluing my week, with my NCV I can still get most locations with a 2bedroom, lesser view during the summer (except HI and ski weeks).  With kids, I can only travel in summer.  My Harbour Lake week is a no-go, the points are bad, better to trade in II.  I did noy pat that much for my Harbour Lake, so I cant complain.


----------



## ArtsieAng

> SueDonJ
> 
> The points charts are for exchange usage, not home resort usage. This from the FAQ has been copied here already but it doesn't appear from what you're posting that you've seen it




If I exchange my home resort week for points one year, and save the points to be able to book 2 weeks at my home resort the following year, (say I wanted to bring my children/friends with me for a week) I would need to pay the higher point value........Not good!

Edited to add: Of course, I would not have enough points to book a week at my home resort the following year, because Marriott shorted me in my point allotment. Sigh!


----------



## hipslo

*Does Marriott really expect to sell any points packages????*

This may already have been posted, but have folks noticed the absurdly high cost that new owners of points will need to pay in order to have sufficient points to access what most would consider the "good" weeks at most resorts?  At mountainside, for example the "good" ski weeks require 6900 points to reserve (and these are not even the fixed platinum plus weeks). 

 At $9.20 per point, the cost for the 6900 points package would be $63,480.  If maintenance fees are really $400 per 1,000 points (is that correct?), the annual maintenance fees for the 6900 points package would be $2,760. 

It is currently quite easy to rent these weeks directly from owners for around $3,000, give or take.


And what is going to happen when the rare prospect who agrees to pay such prices then discovers that it is difficult to reserve the desired weeks?  

No wonder Fletch and other top salepeople left.  This is insane, especially in this economy.


----------



## timeos2

*Resale is seldom a consideration at purchase*



LAX Mom said:


> I agree with analogy of the car. Who would spend $20,000+ without knowing what the options are to sell it once your circumstances change.



The vast majority of timeshare buyers blindly buy in - far too many in the well over $10K range from developers - and have NO idea how a resale would work. None. Zero. If they did even the absolute minimum to just discover if any timeshare can be resold they would discover the fact that nearly every timeshare  can be purchased at a minimum 50% less than the retail seller is telling them it will cost.  Timeshare sellers go an unprecedented step beyond in many cases to actually work to reduce resale value through various policies they impose. 

So the fact is that while selling the timeshare at some future date is often pitched as a benefit of purchase the reality is the market for resales is fragmented and filled with rip off schemes that prey on uninformed owners. Virtually no retail buyers really understand timeshare purchase or they would be taking advantage of the incredible values in resales rather than paying a 50%+ premium to buy "new" what is exactly the same thing as "used".  

The timeshare sales model thrives off the fact that buyers aren't informed, tend to remain uninformed despite spending tens of thousands of dollars and are open to the art of painting an enticing picture of idyllic vacations for that "one time" upfront expense that turns out to be the smallest part of ownership expense over time. Buyers seem to want to be sold and they want to embrace the dream even as the facts pile on that they might not have made the best choices on how to obtain a lifetime of luxury vacations at resorts they could never afford to own outright 52 weeks a year.


----------



## Asia2000

hipslo said:


> This may already have been posted, but have folks noticed the absurdly high cost that new owners of points will need to pay in order to have sufficient points to access what most would consider the "good" weeks at most resorts?  At mountainside, for example the "good" ski weeks require 6900 points to rent (and these are not even the fixed platinum plus weeks).
> 
> At $9.20 per point, the cost for the 6900 points package would be $63,480.  If maintenance fees are really $400 per 1,000 points (is that correct?), the annual maintenance fees for the 6900 points package would be $2,760.
> 
> It is currently quite easy to rent these weeks directly from owners for around $3,000, give or take.
> 
> 
> And what is going to happen when the rare prospect who agrees to pay such prices then discovers that it is difficult to reserve the desired weeks?
> 
> No wonder Fletch and other top salepeople left.  This is insane, especially in this economy.



Personally, I can't believe the responses on TUG have not been more along the lines of your post.  Either people never fully utilized II, lock-offs and flexchanges or they are just brainwashed that points are good.

I can understand the thinking of, you must go with the flow of the program, but the points conversion simply does not make sense as Marriott immediately slashes the value of what they own.  Yes, you could probably stay 10 days on two sets of Sunday through Thursday time periods, but how convenient is that?

I'm thinking the only reason to go into the program would be to select the "regular deeded week" option, which will slightly reduce your trading fees and then you can hope everything works the same.  This way, if you are boxed out by point users down the road, at least you can pull the trigger and switch to points, thereby salvaging the usage from your asset.

This is a disastrous deal for a new buyer compared to the way Marriott sold timeshares two days ago.  
1.  All of the good perks have been fully eliminated with points.
2.  The maintenance fees are higher with points.
3.  Your usage value is lower with points (unless you are into Sunday through Thursday stays)


----------



## kedler

ArtsieAng said:


> What happens if I join today, and buy resale points on ebay, a year from now? Since I'm already a member, do they simply get added to my total number of points?


It seems the sales rep can't read the disclosure guide which does cover what happens if a Trust Member (points) or an Exchange Member (weeks/us) sells:

"a. Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company* may* require the payment of an initiation fee. (*The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee*; however, Exchange Company r*eserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis* in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.
b. Exchange Members. *If a purchaser* of a Exchange Member’s Interest* does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program*, *such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner*."

Very hefty fee in connection with resale of a points interest and for us the fee is an unknown as it is the "the current enrollment fee"; however, the waiver language is only there for the points interest resale not our exchange member interest.


----------



## Asia2000

kedler said:


> It seems the sales rep can't read the disclosure guide which does cover what happens if a Trust Member (points) or an Exchange Member (weeks/us) sells:
> 
> "a. Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company* may* require the payment of an initiation fee. (*The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee*; however, Exchange Company r*eserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis* in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.
> b. Exchange Members. *If a purchaser* of a Exchange Member’s Interest* does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program*, *such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner*."
> 
> Very hefty fee in connection with resale of a points interest and for us the fee is an unknown as it is the "the current enrollment fee"; however, the waiver language is only there for the points interest resale not our exchange member interest.



Correct me if I am wrong.

1.  The original owner of the timeshare pays to enroll in the program.  He then decides to sell.

2.  The purchaser must a. Go through an approved broker  b.  Pay at least $2,000


----------



## hipslo

Asia2000 said:


> I'm thinking the only reason to go into the program would be to select the "regular deeded week" option, which will slightly reduce your trading fees and then you can hope everything works the same.  This way, if you are boxed out by point users down the road, at least you can pull the trigger and switch to points, thereby salvaging the usage from your asset.




That is my curerent thinking as well.


----------



## tombo

ArtsieAng said:


> If I exchange my home resort week for points one year, and save the points to be able to book 2 weeks at my home resort the following year, (say I wanted to bring my children/friends with me for a week) I would need to pay the higher point value........Not good!
> 
> Edited to add: Of course, I would not have enough points to book a week at my home resort the following year, because Marriott shorted me in my point allotment. Sigh!



Isn't that special. You bank the points you receive from your week so that you can reserve two weeks at your home resort to bring family or friends the next year, but you find that you can't afford to rent an week identical to what you deposited because Marriott didn't "award" you enough points to stay in your own home resort. Since Marriott charges you more points to stay at your home resort (in season) than they award you when you deposit it with them, you will have to borrow points from the next year to be able to have enough points to stay in your home resort. This means that in reality for 2 years out of 3 you will not receive enough points to actually stay at your home resort in season, but Marriott does give you the option to go further into debt using some of the 3rd year's points to allow you to afford to stay 2 weeks out of 3 in your home resort. Is that what Marriott calls flexibility?


----------



## saturn28

ArtsieAng said:


> If I exchange my home resort week for points one year, and save the points to be able to book 2 weeks at my home resort the following year, (say I wanted to bring my children/friends with me for a week) I would need to pay the higher point value........Not good!
> 
> Edited to add: Of course, I would not have enough points to book a week at my home resort the following year, because Marriott shorted me in my point allotment. Sigh!



Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.


----------



## tombo

saturn28 said:


> Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.



You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.


----------



## saturn28

tombo said:


> You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less inventory.



First there are going to be 2 different weeks II accounts. One for those week members that don't join the points system and one for the weeks owners that due join the points system. Marriott has said just like in the past II will confirm reservations on a first come first serve basis. So, that is what they do now. I don't see how anything will change. A week deposited into II will go to those weeks owners trading through II. The weeks that weeks owners convert into points will be available to points owners to reserve.


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## EducatedConsumer

tombo said:


> Many were scratching their heads wondering why DVC left II. Perhaps they had advance warning from their previous employee who helped Marriott design the points program that in the near future DVC members wouldn't be able to exchange for Marriott weeks. Without Marriott inventory II is much less attractive to DVC members.
> 
> Forget DVC access to Marriott inventory through II, with the upcoming changes even Marriott owners who don't convert to points will have limited access to Marriott inventory through II. Weeks owners exchanging access is being severelly limited because of the new points program, II's access to prime inventory is history, and DVC exchanges are gone to all Marriott owners and/or points members. Without DVC and with limited Marriott access, II might become a historical event.



It's amazing where the mind will bring you.

In truth, DVC left II for one primary reason, money. RCI incented DVC to abandon II by offering DVC substantial financial incentives (as much as I dislike RCI, you have to give RCI credit for making this play with money. DVC's affiliation with RCI clearly bolstered the RCI network, and has enabled all of the other RCI-affiliated resorts who are trying to sell their ownership proposition. to tout RCI' s affiliation with DVC. If I were an RCI-affilated developer, I'd be qute pleased by that). Club Intrawest - - a points based model built by the architects of DVC did the exam same thing, they left II several years prior.


----------



## PeterS

Frisbeeace said:


> The points system will not work for me as my 3 Sabal Palms weeks are weak traders BUT since I usually trade them for MR points, then my annual fees would go down if I join, so I am tempted to give it a thought anyways. However, if the trade-for-MR points option worsens due to new devaluations, and I'm left with the only option of exchanging through II, then I might get trapped in the system forever paying more... anyone in a similar situation?



I agree and know right where you are coming from...

I  posted this earlier but this thread is moving very fast....

Been avoiding the speculation but now that real info is out....

My first impressions:

This favors the big owners and not single week owners.

I have one week at Sabal which comes in at 1675...
I am not willing to buy more and increase my maintenance fees...
Beyond the initial payment, the single fee saves me money in years I trade for Reward Points. If I trade to II, I lose money. So on average, it looks like a break even.

So the only real cost (you retain all older choices) is the $600 up front.
The only real gain is access to the newer resorts... for fewer days and smaller units.

I am on the fence... but leaning to doing it for access to the newer resorts.

I would appreciate any insight or thought on what I may be missing.

The one thing I see clearly is that I can never recommend the Marriott system to anyone again. The new Lakeshore Reserve 1bdrm in the slowest season is about twice the points of what my Sabal 2bdrm in mid demand season gets. Sabal is on the grounds (and includes all amenities) of the World Center. Lakeshore Reserve is the same with the JW and RitzCarlton. The only real reason a larger unit in a better season is lower is the age of the resort. If Marriott is doing this now, than even if you have a week worth 4000 points today.... the new resorts in the same area are going to be 5000, 6000, 7000...... Your points purchasing power will drop with each new resort. I can't recommend a system like that.

Thoughts?

Pete


----------



## ArtsieAng

saturn28 said:


> Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.





tombo said:


> You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.



Agreed.....This would be a total crap shoot, and one that I shouldn't have to take when trying to book my home week. What good is it if I have to go through II to try and book a 2nd week at my home resort? It's crazy, IMO.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

tombo said:


> You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.



How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?


----------



## pacheco18

jimf41 said:


> It's getting late and I'm getting tired of reading so I stopped about halfway through. I'm a little disappointed at some of the info put out so far by so called "tug experts". I'll dispel some of the inaccuracies I've found so far.
> 
> 1. New yorkers can join. I confirmed this by telephone and by getting through to the enroll site ( thanks for whomever gave the tip about using FireFox) where all my weeks were listed with their accompanying point value. The point values the rep gave were exactly the same as on the website.
> 
> 2. Frenchman's Cove and St Kitts can join.
> 
> 3. Points can be banked for longer than one year. I'm not sure how long but longer than your usage year.
> 
> 4. A lot of folks are saying they can't book what they have because the point value of their week is less than the week requires in the point system. This is true sometimes but not always and I don't think even most of the time. I suspect this will be more prevalent to a one week owner who falls into a shortfall point given vrs point required situation. I added up all my points, 24775. then I added up what is required to book the weeks that I usually book, 25475. 700 point minus but that's if I deposit all my weeks as points. Half of that 700 point deficit comes from depositing my MFC Pres fixed week. I would never do that on a year I want to use it so my real deficit is 350 points. Not good but not the disaster some are alluding to. On 3 of my Ocean point weeks I actually have a point surplus.
> 
> 5. This one really irks me. Marriott did not give the shaft to their developer purchasers. What they did was to grandfather in at a slightly higher cost all of their loyal owners who purchased resale. I'm glad they finally did that as those resale buyers don't have to walk around the resort with that big red "R" on their foreheads anymore. It was scaring my grandkids. I'm hopeful that will allow something for future resale buyers but at this time that does not appear likely.
> 
> I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do. The point allocations both given and required are a benefit to me but what scares me is that might change and I'd be on the losing side instead of the winning side as I am now. It's been an interesting day. Goodnight all.



Assuming all you say is true - here is the BIG problem.

There is no guarantee that point values will not change. When you bought your weeks, would you have bought if they told you  -- right now you get 7 days in a 2 bedroom - but we could change it -- you might only get 6 days - or maybe 7 days in a 1 bedroom?  That's what this new system can and will probably do.


----------



## tombo

saturn28 said:


> First there are going to be 2 different weeks II accounts. One for those week members that don't join the points system and one for the weeks owners that due join the points system. Marriott has said just like in the past II will confirm reservations on a first come first serve basis. So, that is what they do now. I don't see how anything will change. A week deposited into II will go to those weeks owners trading through II. The weeks that weeks owners convert into points will be available to points owners to reserve.



According to many posts here Marriott will be able to raid weeks inventory deposited with II. Some here can post the related Marriott wording allowing them to do so, or you can scroll back a couple of pages and find posts stating the specifics.


----------



## ArtsieAng

EducatedConsumer said:


> How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?



It doesn't even matter, IMO.....Why should I need to go into II and take my chances on getting a second week, same check-in date for my home resort? I should be able to book that directly from Marriott, and not have to take my chances with II.  Even if I were able to get the same week, it might take months to do so, and it would most likely mean higher plane fares, and uncertainty in planning ahead.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning....

I expressed those very concerns to my MCVD "guru".  I was told the system is "Disneyesque" In the fact that the total points PER RESORT remain constant. If points go up for one week or day, they must go down for another...

Of course, new resorts will cost more points. 

I did ask if the points needed to snag a unit increase, does the points allocaion to the legacy owners that have these seasos increase as well??

The answer was an unequivocal "not on your life" and "are you serious?"


----------



## tombo

EducatedConsumer said:


> It's amazing where the mind will bring you.
> 
> In truth, DVC left II for one primary reason, money. RCI incented DVC to abandon II by offering DVC substantial financial incentives (as much as I dislike RCI, you have to give RCI credit for making this play with money. DVC's affiliation with RCI clearly bolstered the RCI network, and has enabled all of the other RCI-affiliated resorts who are trying to sell their ownership proposition. to tout RCI' s affiliation with DVC. If I were an RCI-affilated developer, I'd be qute pleased by that). Club Intrawest - - a points based model built by the architects of DVC did the exam same thing, they left II several years prior.



I made the post as a tongue in cheek post. I would never think that a huge company like DVC would base such a big decision on what Marriott was going to do. Sorry you missed the sarcasm.


----------



## tombo

EducatedConsumer said:


> How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?



Marriott has profit to be made off of supplying the best inventory to points members making their new program successful by word of mouth from those who converted. Marriott has zero financial incentive to make sure that weeks owners get prime exchanges, in fact they have financial disencentives because if weeks owners are happy with their II exchanges they will not pay to convert. If weeks owner's trades are poor and limited they might pay Marriott to become points members. All Marriott sales and all new resorts will be based on points, so Marriott has based the future of their entire timeshares sales division on points being a success, and they don't have any incentive to makes sure weeks owners are happy and get good trades. CEO's and top mgt have their reputations and possibly careers tied to the success of the points program they invented and implemented. All financial and non financial incentives for Marriott favor points over weeks, and they like any company will focus on what is most profitable for the company. Any CEO will also do what is best for their company's bottom line or they will quickly become a "non agent of Marriott" too.

By the way, are we back to this again? Earlier in this thread before the program was launched you used the same quote about statements made by non agents of Marriott after which I said using your own criteria you are either an agent of Marriott, or your postulations and posts are ALSO simply more statements of fact that can't be proven posted by a non agent of Marriott. 

Please use the same standards for your posts that you love to place on others rather than the double standard where your posts and theories are correct and others are mistatements made by non agents. You apparently love Marriott, defended them with your "facts" before the program was rolled out, and you are back defending them again. Feel free to defend your employer (my guess by a non agent), but read the posts and realize that you are in the minority.  Most here feel that the new program is bad for owners, including many who supported Marriott before the program's details were announced.


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## kedler

*Marriott's annoucement in news media*

Here is a link to an article today regarding Marriott's new program:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marriott-vacation-club-introduces-new-vacation-ownership-program-2010-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

I'm headed to work, wondering how many posts will be here by tonight ...


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## Antny

*Confused about club dues*

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused about the club dues.  Are these dues mandatory every year after enrolling even if you decided not to exchange your week into point for that given year?  So in other words, it will cost me an extra $165-199 extra by enrolling into this new program regardless of usage?


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## Bunk

I bought a week at Grande Vista from Marriott.

I have two questions

First, let's say I enroll in the new program and purchase an additional 1,000 points.  Are those two accounts now linked or can I sell them separately?  Because if they're linked and I have to sell them together, the new buyer must pay at least $2,000 to buy into the program. That would make it more difficult to sell Grande Vista.

Second,  if I can sell them separately, I believe that the new buyer of my Grande Vista time share would have the option to stay within the old system, even though I joined the new program.  Am I correct in that assumption?


----------



## smokies

For some reason I can't get into this thread with my normal TUG name. I am the poster formerly know as Siberiavol. 

I liked the old system. I was able to do get a lot of good trades from silver into platinum. I have a 600 point week under the new system that got me a 4325 week in the new system through a trade with II for this January. That will never happen again.

The issue for all of us  going forward is not what we used to be able to do but what is the best option going forward. Do you stay where you are with II and the old system or spend the dollars to get in the new program.

If I thought II would have the same opportunities it had before, I would do nothing. I don't think they will and therefore the best deals available for THE WAY I USE TIMESHARES will probably be the Sunday through Thursday opportunities and off season weeks in new program.

The key question is HOW DO YOU USE TIMESHARE. I don't need the presidents day week at Ocean Pointe. January is fine . Off seasons are OK. Each of us has an entirely different situation. 

Before I retired I was a commission salesman. At one point my company cut my percentage. I was very mad but figured out at some point  my decision was to stay with a "poorer deal" or change companies. I had to quit blaming them and make the best decision for me. It might not have been fair but it was legal. It changed the way I felt about them for sure. My view of Marriott was changed when they changed the rewards program. This new program was better than I expected

This program seems like a "poorer deal " than the old one but I will join because I think the entry fee is relatively low and as a multiple week owner I think I can use it in some new ways that will enable me to have some ten day trips and four day trips which were not possible before. Also I think I can access some newer resorts for a few days from time to time which I have not been able to get through II.


----------



## Bunk

I have another question on the issue of rentals of less than one week. It was asked before, but I don't know whether it was answered.

There is clearly an increase in maintenance costs to service short term rentals.  Is that being passed on to the Homeowners Association?  That means that the Homeowners Association is subsidizing Marriott's rental program without adequate compensation.  I don't know whether that has always been the case.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

tombo said:


> Marriott has profit to be made off of supplying the best inventory to points members making their new program successful by word of mouth from those who converted. Marriott has zero financial incentive to make sure that weeks owners get prime exchanges, in fact they have financial disencentives because if weeks owners are happy with their II exchanges they will not pay to convert. If weeks owner's trades are poor and limited they might pay Marriott to become points members. All Marriott sales and all new resorts will be based on points, so Marriott has based the future of their entire timeshares sales division on points being a success, and they don't have any incentive to makes sure weeks owners are happy and get good trades. All financial and non financial incentives for Marriott favor points over weeks, and they like any company will do what is best for their bottom line.
> 
> By the way, are we back to this again? Earlier in this thread before the program was launched you used the same quote about statements made by non agents of Marriott after which I said using your own criteria you are either an agent of Marriott, or your postulations and posts are ALSO simply more statements of fact that can't be proven posted by a non agent of Marriott.
> 
> Please use the same standards for your posts that you love to place on others rather than the double standard where your posts and theories are correct and others are mistatements made by non agents. You apparently love Marriott, defended them with your "facts" before the program was rolled out, and you are back defending them again. Feel free to defend your employer (my guess by a non agent), but read the posts and realize that you are in the minority.  Most here feel that the new program is bad for owners, including many who supported Marriott before the program's details were announced.



Employee of Marriott, hardly. I'm off to my real job in academic behavioral medicine. And yes, we are nearly one year into an analysis of the behaviors and writings of participants in forums such as this one. 

While not an employee of Marriott, I am a loyal Marriott guest of more than 40 years, a multiple week MVCI owner of 25 years,  and a former HOA Board Member. From those vantage points, I developed an appreciation for Marriott's conviction to their customers, and some of the rhetoric posted on these boards. I'll leave to our research, grounded in science (and peer review), additional conclusions. One thing I will defend are pot shots at Marriott (or any other well-intentioned company for that matter). I continue to be mind boggled by the pot shots and comments based on anything other than fact herein, oddly from some who continue to do business with Marriott. I am reminded of an abusive spousal relationship where one of the two partners (the abusee) can't exit that relationship, but should. 

While there's a place for critical thinking in all organizations, there's an important distinction between critical thinkers who have as their goal influencing a favorable outcome, versus impaired thinkers who sling mud around and offer no constructive remedy.

PS I should point out that I do not perceive everything that Marriott does as roses. Disappointed by the continued degradation of the Marriott Rewards program, and culminating with the exclusion of American Airlines as a partner, I accepted a tier status match with both Starwood and Hyatt, and over the next year I'll determine which of the three will earn my business and brand loyalty. In the interim, the Marriott Rewards program lost that business.


----------



## Bunk

Sorry for posting consecutive questions, but I think they are easier to answer.

I have a week at Grande Vista.  If I join the program and then opt to trade within Interval International, do I still have to reserve a specific week for me to trade or do I just trade in my 2,775 points or do I have a choice on that.

If I join the new program and try to get an exchange through interval, does my week stay with Marriott under the new program, or does it get deposited directly with interval.


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## tombo

[_Message deleted. You may disagree with the content of a post, but you may not attack the poster. Please read the "Be Courteous" section of the Posting Rules (located on the blue bar near the top of the page._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


----------



## pefs65

Everybody's situation is different.
Here is what I will probably do.
As someone who is used to a point system since I own DVC I will probably join the new Marriott system.
I own a resale week at the old hotel MOC and I would qualify for approx 5800 points which will get me into practically any other property during the time that I like to vacation.
This comes with a fee of approx 1500 dollors plus the annual fee.
I am happy that Marriott included me as a resale owner and also as a EOY owner and feel that the 1500 dollors plus the annual membership is well worth it to me to have the increased flexibility to go to the other Marriott resorts in the system since I would probably only want to do internal trades to other Marriotts just like I do internal trades only to Disney.
I know that the pools of inventory may not be there when I request a trade and I know that year to year the points may change and could go up as could the fees but that is the same to a certain extent with my DVC membership and this is a risk I am willing to take.
That's my opinion. 
I thank all of you fellow tuggers for all of yours.


----------



## heathpack

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> I expressed those very concerns to my MCVD "guru".  I was told the system is "Disneyesque" In the fact that the total points PER RESORT remain constant. If points go up for one week or day, they must go down for another...
> 
> Of course, new resorts will cost more points.
> 
> I did ask if the points needed to snag a unit increase, does the points allocaion to the legacy owners that have these seasos increase as well??
> 
> The answer was an unequivocal "not on your life" and "are you serious?"



If this statement is correct, then this new Marriott program _is_ somewhat Disneyesque.  Do you know if Marriott has legally committed themselves (as Disney had done) to never changing the points total at any given resort?  Or is this just another one of those instances in which one is told how a program "will" work only to find out later that there is no obligation for it to actually work that way ("all you bought was the ability to use your deeded week, nothing more, the points program was always an 'enhancement' subject to change").  I suspect the latter will be true because no one has reported any verbage committing Marriott to anything, as best I can tell.

The part about your week's value not increasing over time whereas new resorts "cost" more points is exactly how Disney works, however.  Disney relies on building new, more expensive resorts as a driving force behind the sale of new points, which seems fair enough.  You build a new resort in Hawaii and maybe thats worth enough to me to get me to buy some more points.

Also be aware that in Disney's system, if a week at your resort "costs" around 250 points to reserve and you decide to buy 250 points that means you have 250 points to spend elsewhere in the DVC system.  Marriott's system version is "your week at AKL costs 250 points, you can book that or take a 225 point credit to go book at another DVC resort."  Significant difference.

I have a feeling that similarity to DVC is going to be a sales tactic.  And people should be aware that Disney has committed itself legally to some pretty stringent rules governing its system.  As best I can tell Marriott has not.

H


----------



## Fredm

hipslo said:


> I was told over the phone today that there are NOT two pools, there is only a single pool, though the number of reservations out of that pool available to points is limited.  Which means there is no week by week allocation between weeks and points.



There *MUST* be two pools.

Inventory segregation is not a matter that can be resolved by the governing documents where there are multiple owner classes.
It's the law in most jurisdictions.

For example, the Hawaii statutes below are clear (courtesy of Tugger, jerseygirl).
Although phrased differently in California and Florida the outcome is the very similar.

One-to-one use-right to use-night requirement. (a) A developer shall not offer or dispose of a time share unit or a time share interest unless the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is currently satisfied and will continue to be satisfied for the duration of the time share plan.

(b)The time share instruments shall contain provisions assuring satisfaction of the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement for the duration of the time share plan except during temporary periods of noncompliance due to casualty or condemnation.

(c)The following criteria shall be considered in determining whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied:

*(1)If the time share plan has more than one class of time share interest, then the requirement must be satisfied within each class;*

(2)Only use nights available and protected from blanket liens for the duration of the time share plan shall be counted; provided that if time share interests are classified by duration, then as to each class, only use nights available and protected from blanket liens for the entire duration of that class shall be counted;

*(3)A use night counted to satisfy the requirement for one class may not also be counted to satisfy the requirement for a competing class;
*
(4)No individual time share unit may be counted as providing more than three hundred sixty-five use nights per calendar year (or more than three hundred sixty-six use nights per leap year);

(5)The use rights of each owner shall be counted without regard to whether the owner's use rights have been suspended for failure to pay assessments or otherwise. Use rights attributable to unsold time share interests shall be counted;

(6)Use rights of nonowners shall be counted. Use rights of the developer and its affiliates in excess of those attributable to unsold time share interests shall be counted;

(7)Use nights reserved by the association or plan manager for the purpose of performing maintenance and repairs to a time share unit shall not be considered;

*(8)Use rights borrowed from a subsequent year or carried over from a prior year shall not be considered; provided that such practice is not established for the purpose of evading the requirements of this section; and provided further that any such acceleration or deferral of use rights is appropriately balanced and restricted;* and

(9)The director may adopt rules identifying additional criteria to be used to calculate whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied.

(d)This section shall not be deemed to prohibit the time share instruments from including provisions permitting rental by the association or the developer, or reservation and use by owners, of use nights which remain unreserved as of sixty or fewer days in advance of the use night. Any such use rights shall not be considered in determining whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied.

The statute can be accessed here

Bottom line is Marriott is not going to violate real estate law. It simply is not credible. It would sink the ship before leaving the dock.


----------



## pacheco18

*I am not a Marriott basher but I could become one . .*

I love my Marriott timeshares and the concept and I have never had a bad experience with Marriott.  I have a great VOA (I emailed him and we decided to discuss this in a few weeks after the dust settlesLOL).  But, as an attorney, and someone who understands the basics of a fair contract here is what really disturbs me and I will put it in layman's terms without the risk of offending all you super smart people on TUG.

A fair contract is a simple exchange of promises - each side relies on the other's promise and the value of each promise is considered before the deal is made.  Most contracts do not allow any change in the nature of the promises without agreement by BOTH sides, in writing.  It is as simple as that.  Contracts 101 as they say.

SHow this new plan to your attorney.  Most competent attorneys would advise against.  The only promise that has to be kept is that of the Marriott owner who buys in.  Marriott can change anything at will.  I cannot understand how anyone would do this -- even it if looks good right now as it may for some.  YOu have no guarantees about what will happen down the road.

I pity the many uninformed who go to those presentations now.  They do not have the wisdom of those here on TUG and they will be clueless about what questions to ask.


----------



## Stefa

Antny said:


> I'm sorry but I'm a little confused about the club dues.  Are these dues mandatory every year after enrolling even if you decided not to exchange your week into point for that given year?  So in other words, it will cost me an extra $165-199 extra by enrolling into this new program regardless of usage?



Yes, you pay the dues every year.


----------



## JeffW

pacheco18 said:


> There is no viable lawsuit here (I am an attorney).
> You are not forced to buy into the program.
> You can keep what you bought - you were never guaranteed any SPECIFIC trade -- only the right to use your unit in the season you bought and the ability to trade into other resorts (WHERE UNITS ARE AVAILABLE)....



I'll admit unfront I'm lazy, not waiting to read the next 20+ pages before asking a question.

Aren't vacation club points systems regulated somehow?  I thought in the past (maybe in the 80's), there were big problems, because 'vacation club' systems were selling more occupancy (whether via weeks, points, credits, whatever) then actually existed.  I'm not a lawyer, or an accountant, but it seems incredibly simple that whatever 'time' one is selling exactly has to match availability.  
Doesn't Marriott have to get licensed in each state it does sales in?  Is a state going to okay to okay Marriott saying, "Your week is worth x points if you want to bank it, but x+y if you'd want to exchange into your exact same week?"  I know someone said it's basically like a commission on the points exchange, but I'd really like to know the officiial spin from Marriott on how they explain this.

Jeff


----------



## Suzy

Is anyone else not able to reserve a week at their home resort?

I have a silver week at Legend's Edge.  It is worth 1,150 pts.  I need 1,225 to reserve my same week at Legend's Edge under the new program.


----------



## thinze3

*It's really simple*



Suzy said:


> Is anyone else not able to reserve a week at their home resort?
> 
> I have a silver week at Legend's Edge.  It is worth 1,150 pts.  I need 1,225 to reserve my same week at Legend's Edge under the new program.



You don't have to join. You can reserve your week and go to MLE or deposit it with II if you want to. OR if you want to add all the flexibility of the new system, you will have to pay to join and then give up a few of your club points each year.


----------



## wuv pooh

Suzy said:


> Is anyone else not able to reserve a week at their home resort?
> 
> I have a silver week at Legend's Edge.  It is worth 1,150 pts.  I need 1,225 to reserve my same week at Legend's Edge under the new program.



No.  Everyone can reserve a week at their home resort.  It appears that most people cannot exchange for the same week into their home resort via the new method.

They are two different things.


----------



## pacheco18

*Another concern*

I have never been suspicious but

Now that we will have 2 classes of Marriott owners - points owners and the non points owners (3 if you count the resale folks who cannot buy in), will those of us who choose not to convert to points be "punished" by getting less desirable locations when we reserve?  Let's not forget that Marriott knows everything about our Marriott ownership is able to honor requests as they see fit.

Can't wait to get the next survey from Marriott with all those questions such as

Marriott really cares about me
I trust Marriott  LOLOL


----------



## wuv pooh

*Re: Skimming*

Some observations on whether Marriott is skimming points or not:

At Manor Club they have reduced the number of Platinum weeks by 3 and increased the number of Silver Weeks.

I can now buy 4 former Platinum weeks for less than my allocation and 32 for more than my allocation.  I cannot tell if the total points balance because I do not know the allocation for Gold and Silver.

At Harbour Lake they have reduced the number of Platinum weeks by 2 and increased the number of Gold Weeks.

I can now buy 8 former Gold weeks for less than my allocation and 12 for more.  I cannot tell if the total points balance because I do not know the allocation for Platinum and Platinum Plus.


Part of the reallocation is moving former Platinum weeks to lower demand.  This will offset some of the reduction, but not clear if it balances.  I assume this is the same for each resort.

If anyone can provide the following allocations I can see if it balances:

Manor Club Silver
Manor Club Gold
Harbour Lake Platinum
Harbour Lake Platinum Plus


----------



## MountainGal

I'm just curious as to what will happen to future resales.  It sure seems Marriott should have allowed those purchasing on the resale market after June 20 to consider the points program.  It's revenue to Marriott and for every week that converts to points, it's a plus for Marriott's point program.  In fact, it would be a source of potential buyers of new points to supplement what they already have.  Any thoughts on why the June 20 date was set to exclude future resales.  Am I missing something?


----------



## awb

*marriott's new timeshare points system*

I can tell you this is all about Marriott selling more timeshare not about Owners advantages.  I will not be converting my ownership to points.  Here are a few points everyone needs to consider.

1. When Marriott builds new resorts that they say have more amenities or expensive location to build at.  They will most likely charge more points to stay at those resorts which will require owners to purchase more points.  Right now if you own a week you just exchange to go there.  This will devalue your ownership if you have points.

2. You lose the ability to trade up in size or season like you can do now.  In the past I have taken my studio side and traded for a 2 bedroom, and my 1 bedroom side and traded for a 2 bedroom.  If you have points those days are gone.  When you go to exchange they will tell you how many points it takes to stay there for that week and size unit you want.  You will no longer be able to exchange up in size or season.

3. When you go to exchange Interval International still needs something to exchange they can't just take air.  Under the trust scenario who decides what gets traded because you know Interval Iinternational will still want the property with the best trading value.  They are in the business of exchanging they want the best they can get to exchange.

4. Here is a question, if someone trades a week from the traditional weeks system can Interval International give away 3 or 4 days of that week to points owners, or will it be held for weeks owners.  Hummm.

5. In the future those of us that have weeks may have more value to our ownership because 1 week is a week anywhere.  People will begin to seek out our inventory to buy it which will enhance the value of what we own.  

These are just a few things I have thought about in the last 10 minutes, just think about all the issues that will come up in the next few months.  We need to see if we can challenge this  with Marriott if not then those of us that have weeks need to get the word out that converting to points is not a good idea


----------



## Numismatist

I see the word 'convert' used a lot herein.  If one joins the points system and pay the $595 or whatever, what have you 'converted'?  You can still keep your week and stay there.  I'm not giving up a deeded week by joining?


----------



## heathpack

pacheco18 said:


> I have never been suspicious but
> 
> Now that we will have 2 classes of Marriott owners - points owners and the non points owners (3 if you count the resale folks who cannot buy in), will those of us who choose not to convert to points be "punished" by getting less desirable locations when we reserve?  Let's not forget that Marriott knows everything about our Marriott ownership is able to honor requests as they see fit.
> 
> Can't wait to get the next survey from Marriott with all those questions such as
> 
> Marriott really cares about me
> I trust Marriott  LOLOL



Marriott is selling points now, so I have to believe that whenever possible they will give the advantage to points owners.  

H


----------



## timtax

*II inventory siphoning*



tombo said:


> You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. *Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory*.



If Marriott effectively exchanges with II to get the high demand weeks, do you think they will be able to swap a week for a week or will they have to deposit shoulder weeks with a total point value equal to the high demand weel?


----------



## deedman

thinze3 said:


> You don't have to join. You can reserve your week and go to MLE or deposit it with II if you want to. OR if you want to add all the flexibility of the new system, you will have to pay to join and then give up a few of your club points each year.



I love how this guy keeps talking about the "flexibility" of the new system.  The only flexibility there is is giving them the chance to screw you worse than this initial screw.  You sign up, give them your money, get less points than it actually takes to book the same week or season, and THE worst part of all - they have the power to change the points values at any given time.  What makes you think if they are screwing people straight out of the gate they won't do this continually, especially if this doomed before it began points system doesn't take off, they will continue to juice current owners year after year in my opinion.  The slim amount of people this system actually works for have no guarantee that the values to stay at resorts won't go up and they will be in the same position as everyone else, needing more points that can only be bought retail.


----------



## KarenP

wuv pooh said:


> No developer deposits, no MR deposits, no points deposits, and pretty soon there will be very limited Marriott trades available through II.



Won't this make Marriott week deposits into II more valuable?  Or am I missing something?


----------



## scrapngen

Numismatist said:


> I see the word 'convert' used a lot herein.  If one joins the points system and pay the $595 or whatever, what have you 'converted'?  You can still keep your week and stay there.  I'm not giving up a deeded week by joining?



Correct. It also looks like you can choose to leave the program. However, once you leave, it will be very cost prohibitive to return. 

Yes, you have your deed and can make a yearly decision as to whether to use your weeks as "points" or reserve it at your home resort as a week in your season under the previous rules. (12/13 month reservation windows) 

Yes, you can deposit in II. 

However, once you join - you are now a member of the club and there are other very specific pieces to the contract that should be evaluated. ie. the previous posts regarding voting rights, and Marriott's rights to change the program in ANY way at ANY time. (subject to state and federal laws about TS)

And, regardless of your decision, reservations and II availability will be affected in some way for everyone. Just as the 13 month rule changed availability for everyone whether or not they were eligible. 

Those who say this doesn't change ANYTHING for you if you choose not to join, or if you choose to join but not activate your week into points in a given year (this includes Marriott's FAQ's about new program) are burying their heads in the sand, because from now on, there is a new program that will impact current resorts and usage. 

Those who will benefit by joining appear to be a far smaller group than I expected, however. Yet I am sure some of the joiners will not have evaluated as carefully as those following this thread. If I currently owned the equivalent of 13000 points and/or spent more than $200 in misc.  fees every year that will now be consolidated I would be very likely to try it out. 

**I think everyone loses when the points are skimmed, though. Other points companies don't seem to do that. (Your value at home resort as an average is equal to other's who exchange in - not uniformly 7% or more less:  this is especially apparent with fixed weeks as it is easily verified)


----------



## jimf41

Numismatist said:


> I see the word 'convert' used a lot herein.  If one joins the points system and pay the $595 or whatever, what have you 'converted'?  You can still keep your week and stay there.  I'm not giving up a deeded week by joining?



Correct. Most folks seem to getting lost in the points scenarios. If you want to go somewhere other than where you own then you have to use the point conversions. If you want to use your week at your resort then just call MVCI like always and reserve what you chose.

I own Platinum and Silver weeks at Ocean Pointe. The Plat week does not come with enough points to trade back in to the resort for 11 of the 17 weeks of the former plat season. No problem, I'll call MVCI and reserve my week as I always do. 

My Silver week however has an 150 point surplus on the week I normally choose but I can now choose the entire former Gold season if I choose. I normally go in OCT-NOV but if I choose SEP I get an 1150 point surplus. If I choose to stay in an OS instead of an OF I save an additional 1000 points. On this unit I'll use the new point system and come out way ahead.

Seems to be a good deal to me.


----------



## wuv pooh

KarenP said:


> Won't this make Marriott week deposits into II more valuable?  Or am I missing something?



Yes it will, as long as you trade to a Non-Marriott resort.  Most people value the Marriott resorts and want to restrict their exchanges to them.  Pulling that inventory will lower the opportunities to trade into Marriott resorts via weeks.


----------



## thinze3

Numismatist said:


> I see the word 'convert' used a lot herein.  If one joins the points system and pay the $595 or whatever, what have you 'converted'?  You can still keep your week and stay there.  I'm not giving up a deeded week by joining?



Correct, but hey need your inventory, so they are allowing existing owners to join the new system which will be sold as points only.


----------



## tombo

timtax said:


> If Marriott effectively exchanges with II to get the high demand weeks, do you think they will be able to swap a week for a week or will they have to deposit shoulder weeks with a total point value equal to the high demand weel?



Marriott dictates to II what it will do. They might have agreed to 2 shoulder weeks in to take one prime week out, they might have just said a comparable week, but II can't require Marriott to do anything. II needs to keep Marriott inventory in the system for exchange to prevent a lot of II members (Marriott and non Mariott II members) from giving up their memberships. So Marriott explains to II how the new system will work and II has to accept it. 

Marriott doesn't need II since Marriott now has it's own internal points exchange system, but II does need access to Marriott inventory. With DVC gone Marriott is II's only 300 pound gorilla.


----------



## winger

SueDonJ said:


> Wow!  ...
> 
> Can we please put a lid on the comments about owners who might join this new system being "crazy" or "stupid" or "ripped-off?"  At least for a week maybe while we all figure it out?  I know, I know, this thing won't work for everyone.  But it will definitely work for some, and it's very aggravating to see that the old TUG mentality of insulting folks who might find value in a Marriott-direct product is already here in this thread not even twenty-four hours after rollout.  I'm worried that with so many TUGgers not in favor of the points system, TUG is going to be a place that won't feel very hospitable to the few of us who might be able to make points work.  Quite honestly, without TUG I wouldn't have nearly the level of knowledge it takes to make Marriott timeshares work to their best advantage, and I'd hate to be made to feel that I'm no longer welcome here if I choose points.  Thanks for at least considering someone else's opinion.


Sue, I second your request and thoughts.

How can one be objective if all there is in the family is negativity???  I get your point.

Actually, I will be evaluating for a few weeks before I decide but I may actually switch due to the fees saved. I normally turn a week into pts and/or exchange through II. In my approx 14+ years of timesharing, we have mainly been exchanging.  The same going fwd... So, this new pts system may be the way we go.  But one thing granted, the 'tiger trade' concept is definitely hard to see in this new system.


----------



## wuv pooh

Numismatist said:


> I see the word 'convert' used a lot herein.  If one joins the points system and pay the $595 or whatever, what have you 'converted'?  You can still keep your week and stay there.  I'm not giving up a deeded week by joining?



The Marriott word is enroll.  

If you choose to enroll you maintain all your current rights, and add the option to access the new Marriott internal trade system by opting to convert to the new points.

If you choose not to enroll you maintain all your current rights, but will not have access to the new Marriott internal trade system.

You can currently enroll for a small fee that is offset by 800 points in the new system.

It is unclear under what terms you will be allowed to enroll in the future if you do not take advantage of the current offer.


----------



## joyzilli

*Depositing with II vs. banking points*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtsieAng  
If I exchange my home resort week for points one year, and save the points to be able to book 2 weeks at my home resort the following year, (say I wanted to bring my children/friends with me for a week) I would need to pay the higher point value........Not good!

Edited to add: Of course, I would not have enough points to book a week at my home resort the following year, because Marriott shorted me in my point allotment. Sigh! 

Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.


Just Some Thoughts:

I own Gold, OV, at Aruba Surf Club and have been allotted 3075 points.  If I decide to join the program and bank one yrs. points to allow me to get an additional room the following year at my home resort, it seems that if I downgrade to the Garden View, then I would have enough points.  As I see it, if I don't bank the week, and do the trade through II, there is no guarantee anyway that I would get Oceanview (what I currently own) and that, most likely, I would get Garden View (as an exchanger).  So in this case it seems to be the same whether banking the points or depositing with II.

Am I correct in thinking this way?


----------



## ArtsieAng

joyzilli said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by ArtsieAng
> If I exchange my home resort week for points one year, and save the points to be able to book 2 weeks at my home resort the following year, (say I wanted to bring my children/friends with me for a week) I would need to pay the higher point value........Not good!
> 
> Edited to add: Of course, I would not have enough points to book a week at my home resort the following year, because Marriott shorted me in my point allotment. Sigh!
> 
> Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.
> 
> 
> Just Some Thoughts:
> 
> I own Gold, OV, at Aruba Surf Club and have been allotted 3075 points.  If I decide to join the program and bank one yrs. points to allow me to get an additional room the following year at my home resort, it seems that if I downgrade to the Garden View, then I would have enough points.  As I see it, if I don't bank the week, and do the trade through II, there is no guarantee anyway that I would get Oceanview (what I currently own) and that, most likely, I would get Garden View (as an exchanger).  So in this case it seems to be the same whether banking the points or depositing with II.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking this way?




Yes, If you own OF, or OV and are willing to down grade your view, or if you own Platinum Plus, and are willing to downgrade your week, then you would have enough points to book directly with Marriott. Of course, if you are a GV owner, that would not be the case, you would be forced to try and get that week through II........In a way tho, isn't this showing us exactly how the new points system is downgrading what we all currently own?


----------



## tombo

joyzilli said:


> Just Some Thoughts:
> 
> I own Gold, OV, at Aruba Surf Club and have been allotted 3075 points.  If I decide to join the program and bank one yrs. points to allow me to get an additional room the following year at my home resort, it seems that if I downgrade to the Garden View, then I would have enough points.  As I see it, if I don't bank the week, and do the trade through II, there is no guarantee anyway that I would get Oceanview (what I currently own) and that, most likely, I would get Garden View (as an exchanger).  So in this case it seems to be the same whether banking the points or depositing with II.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking this way?



Sure, you can make it work that way but it isn't an equitable exchange for you. If you give marriott your Oceanview week at Aruba, they should give you enough points to reserve your Oceanview week the following year. This year Marriott will get enough points from someone staying in your week that they can pay you the same number of points back next year. If they give you credit for less points than they receive they are skimming points off fo the top to the detriment of owners.

Marriott never said in the past well if you deposit an Oceanview week this year we will let you exchange for a garden view next year, but not an Oceanview like you deposited. Or if you deposit a platinum week this year you won't be able to exchange it for a platinum week next year unless you pay us more money, agree to stay less than a week, or agree to accept a week in a lesser season. Why is it suddenly OK for them to give you less than what your week costs pointswise  when you deposit, but it has become acceptable to charge you full retail when you exchange?


----------



## Slakk

Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program.  I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.

I did confirm St Kitts IS part of this point enrollment and holy smokes my EOY 2 BR Gold OS is worth 4550.  We bought it as a trader and I am thrilled with that amount of points in my use year.  I can even stay at Aruba Surf Club (our favorite) for a week and have 1000 points left over.  For that alone it was a no brainer.

We had looked at a couple of EOY options and I am so glad we bought at St Kitts now.

I guess I am looking at those of us weeks owners as in a better position than the newbie points only, we can have our cake and eat it to.  I can stay at my resort in my season, I can trade through II for somewhere else or I can use points. 

I cannot imagine spending $20,000 for the value of my EOY.  I am definitely signing up for a tour when I get to St Kitts next month.  LOL I want to see how they spin points.


----------



## PaulN

I have a Platinum Plus week and was told if I sign into the Destinations program that I would not be guaranteed Presidents week any longer, rather only the points value annually.  This seems different that what others have posted.

Additionally, the rep told me there is "no impact to my deed" but she also went on to say that if at some point we sold the unit, we wouldn't be selling our Aruba properties, we would be selling our points value.

This doesn't sound too good to me.


----------



## floyddl

tombo said:


> Marriott has profit to be made off of supplying the best inventory to points members making their new program successful by word of mouth from those who converted. Marriott has zero financial incentive to make sure that weeks owners get prime exchanges, in fact they have financial disencentives because if weeks owners are happy with their II exchanges they will not pay to convert. If weeks owner's trades are poor and limited they might pay Marriott to become points members. All Marriott sales and all new resorts will be based on points, so Marriott has based the future of their entire timeshares sales division on points being a success, and they don't have any incentive to makes sure weeks owners are happy and get good trades. CEO's and top mgt have their reputations and possibly careers tied to the success of the points program they invented and implemented. All financial and non financial incentives for Marriott favor points over weeks, and they like any company will focus on what is most profitable for the company. Any CEO will also do what is best for their company's bottom line or they will quickly become a "non agent of Marriott" too.
> 
> By the way, are we back to this again? Earlier in this thread before the program was launched you used the same quote about statements made by non agents of Marriott after which I said using your own criteria you are either an agent of Marriott, or your postulations and posts are ALSO simply more statements of fact that can't be proven posted by a non agent of Marriott.
> 
> Please use the same standards for your posts that you love to place on others rather than the double standard where your posts and theories are correct and others are mistatements made by non agents. You apparently love Marriott, defended them with your "facts" before the program was rolled out, and you are back defending them again. Feel free to defend your employer (my guess by a non agent), but read the posts and realize that you are in the minority.  Most here feel that the new program is bad for owners, including many who supported Marriott before the program's details were announced.



It seems to me Marriott could have ensured the new program was a success by offering comparable value for the points required to make a week reservation at your resort.  The money to be made here is in the volume of members paying the annual fee.  By enticing large numbers of members to joing and pay the initiation fee plus annual fee they could have ensured a good inventory of weeks and maximized the revenue from the start.  Instead they have chosen to create an inequity that alienates many owners and they will essentially build the point program from the ground up on future sales.  Seems somewhat short sighted to forego revenue and to alienate owners at the same time.


----------



## joyzilli

Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program. I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.


Just Curious:  My "every year" Aruba Surf Club Gold OV is also worth 3075 points.  Can this be a mistake that your EOY is worth the same as my EY and the only difference is the OS vs. OV?

According to the points chart - the OS and OV units are given the same value.  Something doesn't seem right.


----------



## tombo

floyddl said:


> It seems to me Marriott could have ensured the new program was a success by offering comparable value for the points required to make a week reservation at your resort.  The money to be made here is in the volume of members paying the annual fee.  By enticing large numbers of members to joing and pay the initiation fee plus annual fee they could have ensured a good inventory of weeks and maximized the revenue from the start.  Instead they have chosen to create an inequity that alienates many owners and they will essentially build the point program from the ground up on future sales.  Seems somewhat short sighted to forego revenue and to alienate owners at the same time.



Sure what a simple eqitable way to run the points. My resort/week/season costs 5000 points to reserve, marriott charges points members 5000 points to stay in my week, marriott is going to give me 5000 points when i deposit my week which will let me exchange for any marriott resort each year that costs 5000 points or less.

Of course if they had done that they would n't have built in the points profit cushion they currently enjoy. Marriott is making money on conversions, annual membership fees, points sales and rentals, but that wasn't enough,they had to short almost every owner and not give them what their week is worth when it is deposited internally. they had to get greedy and make money on the exchanges too and make money ($2000) on all points owners resales lining their pockets further while killing resale prices. What a greedy company they have turned out to be.


----------



## Slakk

joyzilli said:


> Just Curious:  My "every year" Aruba Surf Club Gold OV is also worth 3075 points.  Can this be a mistake that your EOY is worth the same as my EY and the only difference is the OS vs. OV?



I only get my points during my use year not every year like you do.


----------



## Slakk

joyzilli said:


> According to the points chart - the OS and OV units are given the same value.  Something doesn't seem right.



Yeah I saw that too..I think that is weird


----------



## wesley

*Can't get info on MOW and BPT values in points...*

I can't seem to get on the MVCI website and find out what our Marriott purchased Gold week is worth, nor our EOY resale purchase of BPT Gold... Anybody know what these are worth.  FYI  - We have NEVER exchanged in 8 years of ownership  - we go to MOW the last week in Aug every year and love it. I can't see any advantage to us joining the new program, since we don't exchange. But I might be willing to invest $600 to leave my options open  - I sure am not interested in adding another $1400 to get an EOY at BPT in the mix. Would rather just exchange BPT through Interval... Anybody got a take on our situation??

This is fun!!
See you MOW'ers in SC in Aug...
Wesley


----------



## Whirl

*Barony Platinum OS and OF and Monarch GV*

I tried to search to see if this was already posted. Saw nothing, so FWIW...

*Barony Beach Platinum*

Ocean Side - 4200
Ocedan Front -5025

*Monarch Platinum*

GardenView -2500


----------



## floyddl

timtax said:


> If Marriott effectively exchanges with II to get the high demand weeks, do you think they will be able to swap a week for a week or will they have to deposit shoulder weeks with a total point value equal to the high demand weel?



I think interval makes the money on the trade no matter what the week is so it really doesn't matter to them whether the get Platinum Plus week or a shoulder Platinum.  Sure, the better inventory they offer members the more likely members are to stick.  As long as Marriott controls what gets deposited with II then they are likely to shape it so they get max benefit.  I know that Hilton does the same thing with RCI.  They don't give RCI premium weeks when owners request a trade and in the end it is harder to get a quality exchange.  I could be way off base and Marriott is going to deposit the same week that I own when I make an exchange but it seems unlikely since I don't see where II has any leverage what so ever on Marriott.


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## GregT

floyddl said:


> It seems to me Marriott could have ensured the new program was a success by offering comparable value for the points required to make a week reservation at your resort.  The money to be made here is in the volume of members paying the annual fee.  By enticing large numbers of members to joing and pay the initiation fee plus annual fee they could have ensured a good inventory of weeks and maximized the revenue from the start.  Instead they have chosen to create an inequity that alienates many owners and they will essentially build the point program from the ground up on future sales.  Seems somewhat short sighted to forego revenue and to alienate owners at the same time.



This is exactly how I feel.

Marriott would have skimmed 1,575 from the points for each of my weeks -- that's $630 in MF-value that Marriott will pocket if I ever enrolled and redeemed my property for points, for each week.    

If someone's week is worth 4,500 points accordingly to Marriott, but Marriott skims 900 points from that week and only gives 3,600 points, that's $360 in hidden profit to Marriott on the exchange.

I'm using MF-value because someone, somewhere will buy points from Marriott to use in this system, and they'll pay $400 for every 1,000 points. 

Isn't the up-front of $695 and annual fee of $199 enough?   Did they have to skim too?

They must have done a financial calculation and figured out that they're better off skimming from 5% of the existing owners who join then getting direct cash in up-front payments/annual fees if 25% of the existing owners joined.  Very callous and damaging to their brand with their formally loyal owners.

My letter to Marriott:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124262


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## markbernstein

We have an Oceana Palms 2BR Gold OV, for which we're being offered 2625 points.  Even though Oceana Palms doesn't officially have a Silver season, reserving our same unit would be 2000 points for four hot weeks in August/September, 2950 points for any other Gold week.  So yeah, it looks at first glance (I haven't brought up a calculator) like 2625 is close to an average for the Gold season.   Of course, that's just an intellectual exercise, since this is our home resort.  The bigger question is the ability to reserve at other resorts.

At this point, I'm undecided.  The negative is that the value isn't as great as I would have liked, and I'm certainly not going to spend over $36K to get the 4000 points we'd need to move up to Premier status.

The positives: Enrolling is relatively low cost and low risk, given that we still have all the options we had before.  And the "one annual fee" structure, even with only one unit that doesn't lock off, is pretty close to even.  It also gives us some flexibility, with the options for shorter reservations, and the possibility of doing a lockoff-like expansion into two reservations for our one week, if we go with 1BR units for just the two of us and/or choose lower-points alternatives.

This year, we exchanged our 2009 and 2010 weeks for 1BR at both Maui Ocean Club and Kauai Beach Club in early January.  Both of those show as pretty close to even trades by the point charts.  For 2011, we want to take the grandkids to Disney World, so we want a 3BR in Orlando in either spring break or summer vacation season.  On a points basis, we can't get that in Lakeshore Reserve or Grande Vista, but we can get into Imperial Palms, which would be an acceptable alternative.   But for now, I can wait to see if II gets us into Lakeshore, and switch to points and reserve at Imperial Palms later if needed.

Questions:  Has anyone heard how long the "Plus Points" offer will last?  Right now, the MVCI site is showing an offer of 800 PP.  Is that universal?  (I also wonder if they'll offer any option to purchase PPs, for those times when you're just a little short of what you need for the reservation you want.)


----------



## timeos2

*You used to get the benefit without knowing (and paid too)*



tombo said:


> Sure what a simple eqitable way to run the points. My resort/week/season costs 5000 points to reserve, marriott charges points members 5000 points to stay in my week, marriott is going to give me 5000 points when i deposit my week which will let me exchange for any marriott resort each year that costs 5000 points or less.
> 
> Of course if they had done that they would n't have built in the points profit cushion they currently enjoy. Marriott is making money on conversions, annual membership fees, points sales and rentals, but that wasn't enough,they had to short almost every owner and not give them what their week is worth when it is deposited internally. they had to get greedy and make money on the exchanges too and make money ($2000) on all points owners resales lining their pockets further while killing resale prices. What a greedy company they have turned out to be.



Last time for this one. IF they gave you and every other owner the maximum value week of all weeks in your season - say it was 5000 - where would those points come from? Then you really would have a system with no basis as there are only a few weeks of your season worth 5000 - the rest are 4500 or even 4000 - yet every owner got 5000. It doesn't add up and that's why they didn't/can't do it. 

The only other real option was to make those premium weeks the same value as all the others in the season - say 4000. So now all owners get 4000. Seems fair. But those weeks would be more in demand so immediately wise members snatch them up as a bargain. The method of properly distributing inventory - through proper valuation & thus reasonable demand - is gone. You really wouldn't be able to get your own weeks as they would blow out before any others that were properly priced in points. 

That's as clear as I can make it and can't beat my head against this wall of misinterpretation anymore.  Bottom line - the way a points system works is to spread the value to all then let the members distribute the inventory by using up the points. The process is different than a week for week trade where there are guaranteed winners & losers - points balance out on requests from the users rather than luck of the draw/timing of a flat week fore week exchange model. For every one of the trades you got that you now know had a higher value than your actual week had there was another week owner that had to take the lesser value week & they got the loss you now are claiming as "skim" in points. 'Taint so.  End of best effort to explain this part of the system.


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## ArtsieAng

> timeos2
> 
> That's as clear as I can make it and can't beat my head against this wall of misinterpretation anymore. Bottom line - the way a points system works is to spread the value to all then let the members distribute the inventory by using up the points.



OK, so if Marriott gives every 2 bdrm platinum season OV owner 4075 points for their week, and then charges 4125-4650 points for the same exact weeks, how does this fit into your above scenario? I admit, I don't get it.


----------



## wuv pooh

timeos2 said:


> That's as clear as I can make it and can't beat my head against this wall of misinterpretation anymore.  Bottom line - the way a points system works is to spread the value to all then let the members distribute the inventory by using up the points. The process is different than a week for week trade where there are guaranteed winners & losers - points balance out on requests from the users rather than luck of the draw/timing of a flat week fore week exchange model. For every one of the trades you got that you now know had a higher value than your actual week had there was another week owner that had to take the lesser value week & they got the loss you now are claiming as "skim" in points. 'Taint so.  End of best effort to explain this part of the system.



John, I get this, but is there any reason why the total points do not seem to match?  For my Harbour Lake Gold:

There are currently 20 weeks x 1,950 = 39,000 total points

in the new system there are 8 x 1,725 and 12 x 2,225 = 40,400 total points

Shouldn't everyone have received 2,020 points = 40,400/20

If everyone converted they could not exchange the points given for the points required for the season.  What happened to those points?  Is that a skim or a required cost of flexibility for some reason?

I also note that 2 former platinum weeks have been demoted to gold status so that will change things slightly.


----------



## floyddl

timeos2 said:


> Last time for this one. IF they gave you and every other owner the maximum value week of all weeks in your season - say it was 5000 - where would those points come from? Then you really would have a system with no basis as there are only a few weeks of your season worth 5000 - the rest are 4500 or even 4000 - yet every owner got 5000. It doesn't add up and that's why they didn't/can't do it.
> 
> The only other real option was to make those premium weeks the same value as all the others in the season - say 4000. So now all owners get 4000. Seems fair. But those weeks would be more in demand so immediately wise members snatch them up as a bargain. The method of properly distributing inventory - through proper valuation & thus reasonable demand - is gone. You really wouldn't be able to get your own weeks as they would blow out before any others that were properly priced in points.
> 
> That's as clear as I can make it and can't beat my head against this wall of misinterpretation anymore.  Bottom line - the way a points system works is to spread the value to all then let the members distribute the inventory by using up the points. The process is different than a week for week trade where there are guaranteed winners & losers - points balance out on requests from the users rather than luck of the draw/timing of a flat week fore week exchange model. For every one of the trades you got that you now know had a higher value than your actual week had there was another week owner that had to take the lesser value week & they got the loss you now are claiming as "skim" in points. 'Taint so.  End of best effort to explain this part of the system.



I own fixed week at a resort with only one fixed week.  Yet I am offered 5250 for a week that it takes 5400 to reserve.  While I understand your point on spreading the total over a season there is really no good reason to devalue a week that is a season to itself.


----------



## tombo

John in addition to the above examples which show that even fixed week owners aren't getting the points that their week costs (a ripoff with no justifiable explanation), Marriott could have still given all Platinum weeks at XYZ resort the same 5000 point value and made it first come first served. Right now all platinum owners have the access to all weeks that are platinum. Why now make it where ZERO platinum week owners have enough points to reserve the half of the platinum season weeks which are now deemed to be prime weeks?  

You are going on averages and marriott isn't looking good using that criteria either. Most points are awarded at below the overall average for the season at most resorts from all who have done the calculations.  Points shouldn't make it where Marriott gets top points for exchanging weeks but owners never get enough points to get it next year. No one can afford the prime in season weeks next year if they bank their points. 

Give all like weeks/seasons at a resort  identical points and charge identical points for the person getting the week as you reward the one who deposited an in season week. Let all who have enough points reserve weeks, days, etc, by who is first on the phone, like it was before and will be again once enough people swap to points. Do not make certain non platinum plus weeks suddenly out of reach of platinum weeks owners who swap to points and expect owners to feel the points allocations are equitable.


----------



## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> - They're still having problems with some computers accessing that "Enroll Now" link so I called in to get my points info ... our ownership works out to:
> Barony 2BR Gold OF, 3,725 points (4,000 highest exchange in season)
> SW 3BR Gold OV, 4,625 (4,950 highest exchange in season)
> SW 3BR Plat OS, 5,000 (6,175 highest exchange in season)
> (Of course I will get this verified through a working link or in writing before I rely on it.  For now it's the basis for my thinking.) ...





wsrobinson said:


> The link just worked for me.  Interesting that the link gives me a value of 5750 for SW Plat OS 2 BR.  BTW 6175 is the point value for a 3 BR Plat OS week.  5000 is the point value for a 2 BR Plat OS week.





wsrobinson said:


> My value was from the website while SueDonJ wasn't able to get into the site yet.  My number is accurate, I just re-checked it.





Dean said:


> I'm sure this is answered later but it looks like they've inadvertently listed 3 BR points for 2 BR weeks.  My SW GV unit (ALL 2 BR Platinum listed) is listed 4650, O Vista 6050. ...



Argh.  Still can't access through the "Enroll Now" button but today's rep said the same thing - there are issues with Macs that they are working on.  THANK YOU to everyone who suggested that I could try another browser.  But this is a new laptop that runs lightning-fast and has had no problems other than this one - Marriott stuff has always loaded correctly.  As long as they say they're working on it and I can eventually get in, I really prefer to not change anything on my comp now that I finally have figured out how to use it!  The rep says IT folks are currently not available while the rollout continues - I should give it two days for tweaks and then I can deal directly with IT if the problems continue.

Today's rep gave me a different value for SW 3BR Plat OS - 5,750 as opposed to the 5,000 from yesterday's rep (other values from yesterday are the same.)  It looks like what Dean says is correct - SurfWatch 2BR weeks are being given 3BR week values when they access that link.  What's interesting is that Don can't access the "Enroll Now" button on our account through his PC browser at work today, so maybe the problem is with SW data and not my Mac?  Hmmmmm.

I asked about a rescission period.  This rep said that if you commit to enrollment your VISA will be charged and the paperwork (including governing docs) will be sent immediately.  If you don't sign and return the contract your VISA will be credited (don't know/remember the time frame?); if you do sign and return the contract you will then have a 4-day right to rescind.

I still won't commit to enrollment until these computer and point inconsistencies are corrected, but this is definitely something that looks like it will work for our ownership ... thanks for helping me figure it out.


----------



## timeos2

*It is the average - always higher than the lowest but well under highest value week*



ArtsieAng said:


> OK, so if Marriott gives every 2 bdrm platinum season OV owner 4075 points for their week, and then charges 4125-4650 points for the same exact weeks, how does this fit into your above scenario? I admit, I don't get it.



The 4075 would represent each weeks share of the total pot of points represented by the season/designation of say "Platinum". Within that designation would be a number of weeks - some worth a low of 4125 up to some worth 4650.  Based on that the real number assigned to each owner week would actually fall between 4125 and 4650. Probably on the lower end like 4320 as there tend to be more lower value weeks than higher ones in most groupings. The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.  

Hope that helps.


----------



## hipslo

timeos2 said:


> The 4075 would represent each weeks share of the total pot of points represented by the season/designation of say "Platinum". Within that designation would be a number of weeks - some worth a low of 4125 up to some worth 4650.  Based on that the real number assigned to each owner week would actually fall between 4125 and 4650. Probably on the lower end like 4320 as there tend to be more lower value weeks than higher ones in most groupings. *The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.  *
> Hope that helps.



except that that's exactly what they've done....


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> Today's rep gave me a different value for SW 3BR Plat OS - 5,750 as opposed to the 5,000 from yesterday's rep (other values from yesterday are the same.)  It looks like what Dean says is correct - SurfWatch 2BR weeks are being given 3BR week values when they access that link.  What's interesting is that Don can't access the "Enroll Now" button on our account through his PC browser at work today, so maybe the problem is with SW data and not my Mac?  Hmmmmm.
> 
> 
> I still won't commit to enrollment until these computer and point inconsistencies are corrected, but this is definitely something that looks like it will work for our ownership ... thanks for helping me figure it out.



The whole thing you were excited about was getting credit for a 3 bed room unit when you trade rather than 2 bed rooms exchanges like in the past. Are you getting enough to book a 2 bed room similar week/resort and a one bed room week/ resort with your 3 bed room using points? Nope. 5750 points won't even get you a 2 bed room at a lot of resorts. 

Now Marriott gives your 3 bed room unit 5750 points (the same number of points as a 2 bed room unit) and it seems like points will work out good for you? How can getting less than enough points than are required for a week stay in a good 2 bed room be an improvement over what you had before? you could trade for almost any 2 bed room unit using your 3 bed room before. Now many 2 bed room units are beyond your purchasing power using your 3 bed room's annual points allocation. Please do tell how this is an improvement as for example what weeks can you trade for now using points that were out of reach before.


----------



## MountainGal

Just occurred to me that if you were to join the points program, you are essentially lowering your resale value - if that ever gets figured out.  Right now as a deed owner, you have one week (or more depending on number).  Once you're in the "club", your points may or may not be enough for a week at the various resorts.   Who would that attract on the resale market.  So I would think holding a deed to a week may end up being more to folks liking - at a much cheaper price than buying directly from Marriott.  I understand that holding a deeded week may end up not being as "flexible" as it previously was, but my deed is becoming more attractive.


----------



## tombo

timeos2 said:


> The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.



Really, explain these:



floyddl said:


> I own fixed week at a resort with only one fixed week.  Yet I am offered 5250 for a week that it takes 5400 to reserve.  While I understand your point on spreading the total over a season there is really no good reason to devalue a week that is a season to itself.





Suzy said:


> Is anyone else not able to reserve a week at their home resort?
> 
> I have a silver week at Legend's Edge.  It is worth 1,150 pts.  I need 1,225 to reserve my same week at Legend's Edge under the new program.





ArtsieAng said:


> The lowest amount of points needed to reserve any 2 bdrm, OV week in platinum season at the Aruba Surf & Ocean Clubs is 4,125 points. It goes from 4,125 - 4,650....Platinum Plus weeks are 6,250 - 6,875.
> 
> Marriott is only giving us 4,075 points. We do not have enough points to reserve ANY week in our season.




There were a ton of examples of fixed week wners who don't get as many points as their season costs even though the average for their season is identical to the points because it is a one week season. A couple of owners who don't have enough points to trade for ANY week at their resort, and many other hard to explain away facts, however the thread has been merged or moved and I can't find it. Above are a few of the many examples posting here.


----------



## IngridN

wuv pooh said:


> The Marriott word is enroll.
> 
> If you choose to enroll you maintain all your current rights, and add the option to access the new Marriott internal trade system by opting to convert to the new points.
> 
> If you choose not to enroll you maintain all your current rights, but will not have access to the new Marriott internal trade system.
> 
> You can currently enroll for a small fee that is offset by 800 points in the new system.
> 
> It is unclear under what terms you will be allowed to enroll in the future if you do not take advantage of the current offer.



This is what makes the most sense for me, HOWEVER, and that's a big if, it's too good to be true, and you know the saying about that. Supposedly, the only upside is the savings by paying a $199 club fee vs. all the a la carte fees. What's the downside...there's got to be one.

Ingrid


----------



## Numismatist

MountainGal said:


> Just occurred to me that if you were to join the points program, you are essentially lowering your resale value - if that ever gets figured out.  Right now as a deed owner, you have one week (or more depending on number).  Once you're in the "club", your points may or may not be enough for a week at the various resorts.   Who would that attract on the resale market.  So I would think holding a deed to a week may end up being more to folks liking - at a much cheaper price than buying directly from Marriott.  I understand that holding a deeded week may end up not being as "flexible" as it previously was, but my deed is becoming more attractive.



If I join the points program with my deeded week, then I decide to sell my timeshare for good...would I be selling points then or selling my deeded week then?


----------



## ArtsieAng

timeos2 said:


> The 4075 would represent each weeks share of the total pot of points represented by the season/designation of say "Platinum". Within that designation would be a number of weeks - some worth a low of 4125 up to some worth 4650.  Based on that the real number assigned to each owner week would actually fall between 4125 and 4650. Probably on the lower end like 4320 as there tend to be more lower value weeks than higher ones in most groupings. The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.
> 
> Hope that helps.





hipslo said:


> except that that's exactly what they've done....



Yup.....That's exactly what they've done......According to John, the fair  amount of points for each week to have been alloted would have been approx. 4320, not 4075.


----------



## DanaTom

Numismatist said:


> If I join the points program with my deeded week, then I decide to sell my timeshare for good...would I be selling points then or selling my deeded week then?



I just asked that question of a sales rep and she had to get a supervisor.   Apparently if you opt in to the points program, when you sell... the points option goes away.   I was told this is true for resort purchase or resale purchases on any future resale.   They indicated that existing owners have a deeded week and that doesn't go away.   The potential new future owner would have to then opt in to the points program... if they are allowed to, and at a price to be determined then.  The current conversion price is stated as a "promotion" price. 

It will be interesting to see if you buy new (points), are those sellable at a later date?   Let's see how the sales reps spin that if they have no future marketability.


----------



## Numismatist

DanaTom said:


> I just asked that question of a sales rep and she had to get a supervisor.   Apparently if you opt in to the points program, when you sell... the points option goes away.   I was told this is true for resort purchase or resale purchases on any future resale.   They indicated that existing owners have a deeded week and that doesn't go away.   The potential new future owner would have to then opt in to the points program... if they are allowed to, and at a price to be determined then.  The current conversion price is stated as a "promotion" price.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if you buy new (points), are those sellable at a later date?   Let's see how the sales reps spin that if they have no future marketability.




That means that a potential buyer of my timeshare will be factoring in the cost of joining the points programs as well.  There goes any price I might have gotten...:annoyed:


----------



## DanaTom

DanaTom said:


> I just asked that question of a sales rep and she had to get a supervisor.   Apparently if you opt in to the points program, when you sell... the points option goes away.   I was told this is true for resort purchase or resale purchases on any future resale.   They indicated that existing owners have a deeded week and that doesn't go away.   The potential new future owner would have to then opt in to the points program... if they are allowed to, and at a price to be determined then.  The current conversion price is stated as a "promotion" price.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if you buy new (points), are those sellable at a later date?   Let's see how the sales reps spin that if they have no future marketability.




one more thing... based upon resale owner restrictions (if you aren't on MVC system by 06/20/10, you are not entitled to current promotion), I wonder if they will not allow resale to join in the future???


----------



## timeos2

*I have to go with the points being assigned fairly. It appears to be so*



ArtsieAng said:


> Yup.....That's exactly what they've done......According to John, the fair  amount of points for each week to have been alloted would have been approx. 4320, not 4075.



I have not, and don't plan to, go out & try to add up and average the values at the resorts to attempt to verify what Marriott did. There are enough (for me) cases previously posted here where an owner has done the math and is satisfied that at that one resort it is in balance - I've seen at least a dozen examples - so I'll have a bit of faith that in fact they did the math, double checked it and arrived at the proper figures. If in fact they are attempting to skim (or whatever you care to all it) then the whole thing qualifies as a scam and deserves to crash and burn. Whatever you think of Marriott that isn't something I'd expect from them. I do believe they are an ethical organization, looking to make money of course, but not by intentionally cheating people. 

So I will place my trust in the fact that the base points, the assignment to the seasons and values are in fact the best possible and do represent what Marriott feels are the proper values.  The remainder of the system has to stand on it's own merits and things may not be as rosy there. I plan to summarize my overall opinion soon simply as my personal take on the final product revealed.


----------



## DanaTom

Numismatist said:


> That means that a potential buyer of my timeshare will be factoring in the cost of joining the points programs as well.  There goes any price I might have gotten...:annoyed:




just means you only have the deeded week to offer, and trades through II...   looks like it will reduce ability to trade into MVC locations as some existing and ALL future new sales will go into points.


----------



## timeos2

*Keep it low and it OK*



DanaTom said:


> I just asked that question of a sales rep and she had to get a supervisor.   Apparently if you opt in to the points program, when you sell... the points option goes away.   I was told this is true for resort purchase or resale purchases on any future resale.   They indicated that existing owners have a deeded week and that doesn't go away.   The potential new future owner would have to then opt in to the points program... if they are allowed to, and at a price to be determined then.  The current conversion price is stated as a "promotion" price.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if you buy new (points), are those sellable at a later date?   Let's see how the sales reps spin that if they have no future marketability.



At least a few other systems - DRI for example - do not allow transfer at resale. To me a reason NOT to buy (unless I am willing to throw away that buy in cost as sunk expense over XX years). Low enough and it doesn't matter. Anything $1000 or less can be throw away IMO if I get at least 5 years out of it.  Above $1K it starts to be a problem for me if it has no end value.


----------



## floyddl

DanaTom said:


> one more thing... based upon resale owner restrictions (if you aren't on MVC system by 06/20/10, you are not entitled to current promotion), I wonder if they will not allow resale to join in the future???



That's a good point but I don't think not being allowed into the program would deter a resale buyer looking at saving a lot of money vs. Marriott developer pricing.  I could be wrong.


----------



## Numismatist

I'm at Frenchman's Cove which is still in the process of being built.  I'm wondering if it will become more popular in the coming years as it is finished and more people know about it.  If so, it's value would go up; yet I have to accept the points I'm being given now while it is less popular/known.

Once I join, I'm locked in to the points they say it's worth _right now_ instead of potentially more at a later date?


----------



## DanaTom

timeos2 said:


> At least a few other systems - DRI for example - do not allow transfer at resale. To me a reason NOT to buy (unless I am willing to throw away that buy in cost as sunk expense over XX years). Low enough and it doesn't matter. Anything $1000 or less can be throw away IMO if I get at least 5 years out of it.  Above $1K it starts to be a problem for me if it has no end value.



John, I agree with you...  so, I'm still on the fence on if I will join.   I have a resale deed, so I need to determine if the $1500 is worth it to have a little more flexibility, albeit for a lower valued unit.   Because that $1500 is gone the minute I convert.   Not that anything you buy through the developer retains much of it's value anyhow.   

This entire process seems to suggest MVC wants more control of it's timeshares.   I wonder if the MFs will soon be up with Starwood's?


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> The whole thing you were excited about was getting credit for a 3 bed room unit when you trade rather than 2 bed rooms exchanges like in the past. Are you getting enough to book a 2 bed room similar week/resort and a one bed room week/ resort with your 3 bed room using points? Nope. 5750 points won't even get you a 2 bed room at a lot of resorts.
> 
> Now Marriott gives your 3 bed room unit 5750 points (the same number of points as a 2 bed room unit) and it seems like points will work out good for you? How can getting less than enough points than are required for a week stay in a good 2 bed room be an improvement over what you had before? you could trade for almost any 2 bed room unit using your 3 bed room before. Now many 2 bed room units are beyond your purchasing power using your 3 bed room's annual points allocation. Please do tell how this is an improvement as for example what weeks can you trade for now using points that were out of reach before.



My 5750 points for a Plat OS 3BR at SurfWatch gets me during the same weeks of my season a Plat 2BR OS at OceanWatch (good example of a similar area/location newer resort) for anywhere between 3175 and 4725 points depending on which week.  The 4725 is the highest-demand July 4th holiday, it's 3175 for the earliest/latest weeks in the season, the remaining weeks in the season require 4175.  All of those would give me back points which could be banked for the following year or used in the same year for off-season stays of any number of nights.  If I didn't enroll in Points, my 3BR SW deposit wouldn't get me anything more than the 2BR at OceanWatch (which would possibly be a gardenview as an exchanger,) considering that this year the SW week is not eligible for an AC if deposited.

Look Tombo, I posted in another thread that I understand what you mean by "skimming" and I'm not thrilled with it either.  But the way I figure, it's offset by the impact that this will have on inventory in the Weeks system.

I also posted throughout those months of speculation that I expected points inflation to occur between resorts, I expected that whatever Marriott did they certainly would not be concerned about resale values and would negatively impact them if they could, I expected that the inventory in II would be negatively impacted at least to the extent that Starwood was able to do so.  None of those are a surprise.  All of them will exist from this point forward regardless of the system you choose.

What IS a surprise is the relatively low enrollment and annual fees (for direct purchases) even considering that Club Dues will probably increase at the rate of m/f.  I LOVE the flexibility of the Points system - it's another thing that I posted repeatedly.  I said if it was rolled out as an overlay exchange system offering a marriage of DVC's system with Marriott's resorts then "I'd be over the moon."  Well, that's what it's rolled out to be - why wouldn't I be happy?  Everything that I like about DVC is here:  home resort reservations procedures and m/f (although not for new owners who can only buy Points,) flexibility with more or less than 7 night stays, banking and borrowing, instant reservation confirmations ... 

I'm still looking at it, haven't committed yet.  There are some contract things that I want to be aware of, and certainly the inconsistencies that seem to be happening with SW's point values need to be fixed.  (It isn't that 2- and 3-BR units are supposed to be assigned the same values, btw, it's that the system appears to be incorrectly doing that now.  They're aware of the problem and looking into it.)  But it simply comes down to, Points might work better for me on a consistent basis than Weeks have in the past or will in the future, especially with the Premier Plus advantage.

What works or doesn't work for you may not be the same for somebody else.  I'm not implying that you may not understand things enough to see or not see the advantages/disadvantages in your choice.  I sure wish I wasn't reading that implication in your words.


----------



## ArtsieAng

> timeos2
> 
> I have not, and don't plan to, go out & try to add up and average the values at the resorts to attempt to verify what Marriott did. There are enough (for me) cases previously posted here where an owner has done the math and is satisfied that at that one resort it is in balance - I've seen at least a dozen examples



Hmmmmm, If I look at the points conversion thread, I see just the opposite. Not sure where you are seeing  a "dozen," that are saying the numbers work out to your scenario? However, I will take another look.


----------



## eileenpat

*Outrages fees*

I just got off the phone with Marriott and cannot believe the fees that are charging to enroll in the point system!  If you bought resale your fee is exceptionally higher then if you bought thru them!  Do they really think that in this economy  people are going to layout $2000.00 to enroll in the program?

We own  Platinum at Ocean Pointe, Ko Olina and Ocean Watch.  Ocean Watch was resale.  To enroll it is $1995.00 and this will be THE ONLY TIME WE WILL BE ABLE TO ENROLL OUR RESALE WEEK!

By the way, I had 2 people on the line and they were contradicting one another with respect to how the program will work!  I am not sure that Marriott has it down yet!  It was all "...oh this will be wonderful..."  sales pitch stuff.  I only see this as a money scheme and do not see the mathematical logic in the way the inventory will be distributed.


----------



## tiel

*HELP!!!!!!!*

Just got off the phone with a supposed "points specialist", and my head is spinning!  She's got me confused beyond belief, and I'm hoping someone will be able to clear things up for me.

The questions I posed to her was:  if I enroll in the MVCDestination program, what will the maintenance fees be for my units in the following situations:  If I do NOT convert a week to Club points in a given year, will my MFs for that year be like they always have been...whatever is determined by the BOD?  If I do convert a week to Club points, what will the MF be based on then?

What I was trying to find out is WHEN or IF the $400/1000pts MF calculation comes into play after you enroll in the program if you are a legacy owner.

I was told that, regardless of whether I convert a week to Club points or not, my MFs will be based on MY "beneficial interest" as compared to the total of all "beneficial interests" in the "pot" (Club).  She went on to say, in all likelihood, I will end up with LOWER MFs than in the past.   

HUH????  Now, I don't understand that AT ALL!     

Has anyone else heard anything remotely like this?  Does anyone know what the real answer to my question is?   :annoyed:   Plan to call back to speak to a different rep, but thought someone out there might be able to help also.


----------



## potchak

So this is my first post to this thread, and I have to admit, I got through the first 9 pages, and then page 19, so I might have missed some of these questions, but these are the questions I am curious about the answers:

1) Is this new points program a new contractual service? If not, what is to stop Marriott from ending the program after we paid anywhere from $600-2000 for the priviledge of points?

2) Are the points fixed for future year for what we get as well as the exchange? I heard they could increase them up to 10% per year, but is this a reallocation based on year, or could they just up what it costs to exchange, but not what we get?

3) What are the fees for the other exchange options besides internal exchanges which are included in the yearly fee? Example: explorer's collection, external exchanges through II?

4) Where is the initial points inventory coming from? How can they guarantee we can get what we want in sold out resorts? I read another post that they said the sold out resorts are going to have limited inventory until the program gets moving, why would this entice me to use the program? With low inventory in sold out resorts, how can they guarantee the flexibility that they are touting?

5) When can I make my reservations? The chart they provided in one of their pdf's is not clear to me since it says for premier 13 months and 12 months. Which is it? Does everyone have the same priority for 1+ nights besides premier plus members?

6) Can you purchase just for that year additional points to make up the any differential to make a reservation?

7) Can the bonus points be combined with Vacation points to extend vacations?

8) Flexchange options- do they have any? Are they less points for internal Marriott or Interval exchanges? 

9) How is Marriott handling internal resales now? For the ones that were on the list already, how will they be handled?

10) How is the additional wear and tear on the resorts going to be paid for if our maintenance fees are supposed to calculated the same way as before? I do not want to see my maintenance fees skyrocketing to cover the additional wear and tear? Is Marriott paying each HOA for the MF's for that week and then selling the points? Kind of curious as to how this is supposed to work. Also, how are special assesments supposed to be handled in the future. 

Just a few questions I had on this new program. 

The way I look at the variance between the average and what they are giving people for their week is their administration fee for the new points program beside the annual fee of course. 

DH and I are still debating right now, but he is leaning towards selling all our units because he is not happy with the new program. I don't know, we will wait it out and see if they put a deadline on the rates and plus points... So far, it doesn't sound like many people here are pleased with the new program.


----------



## 5infam

*Need Some Help Figuring This Out...*

OK - I own at DVC, so I get how that points program works, and I like it - it is what I bought. Here in Marriott world, I bought a week in Maui (MOC) at the old converted hotel rooms, in a 1BDR, mount./garden view. I bought it with the expectation that I would have no trouble going through II to trade back into my home resort (I have priority because I own there), and then every other year I would get 2 weeks in Maui. This is what I have been doing with my timeshare. 

Because I bought resale, I will have to pay $1,495 to enroll in the points program (I understand it is an option and I don't have to enroll). Plus, I will have to pay Marriott an annual fee of $165, which supposedly covers my II fees and any other costs. In doing so, if I want to trade in my week for points, I will get 3,100 points to be used in the points program as I can (this is where people are saying I have the flexibility). Here are my issues/questions with how this works, so maybe people can help me out here (and yes, I read all the posts to this point, but there are so many I am loosing track and am trying to focus on what is best for me, which may also help other readers).

1.  The 3,100 points I get will not get me a week at my home resort when I travel most, which is the summer, or other school holidays. My current deeded week allows for availability for me in weeks 1 to 50. In the points system, this varies in points - 3,100; 3,550 and 3,725 for the same time frame I get now - with the 3,550 and 3,725 point option for summer weeks and school holidays (President's, Spring Break and Thanksgiving). This is not really a question, but more a statement that the points program has a strike against it for me, unless I am not getting it.   

2.  In DVC, they sell points at a specific Home Resort, which is tied to a number of weeks available etc. They can not oversell a resort, and once it is sold out, that is it. I get home resort priority in booking, and my maintenance fees are specific to my home resort. In the Marriott Points program, they now only sell points to new timeshare buyers. So am I to understand that the points for all open resorts and new resorts are now pooled together in one big group? If so, how are maintenance fees allocated, and what about one-time assessments due to a hurricane or needed maintenance, etc.? How do they know when a resort is sold out - or is that concept no longer relevant?

3.  Also regarding the DVC example in #2 above - is there no Home Resort priority in the points program?

4.  According to what I have seen here, my $165 annual points fee covers my Marriott to Marriott trades, but also my II membership. It has also been stated that there is an additional fee if I want to trade outside of Marriott...Does anyone know how much that fee is?

5. As of now, I get an AC every year I trade into II. I assume my AC is now gone if I trade into points, but what if I trade through Marriott/II for an outside Marriott resort? To get the AC would I have to have a separate II account - and if so, doesn't that devalue further my Marriott points membership?

6. Resale - I have thought long and hard about selling my week and just renting or doing something else. I was going to sell, then the economy tanked and my resale value went down about 30%, so i figured I would wait and sell in a few years if I still felt the way I do now. Anyway, if I don't join the points program, as it stands now, i will not be able to do so in the future (after the deadline later this year), nor will the person I sell to be able to join in. Is that correct?

7. Resale Pt. 2 - In comparing enrolling or not enrolling in the points program as it pertains to resales - I would think that down the road, a resale where the owner enrolled would be more valuable and would sell for more than a resale where the seller did not enroll. I know this is a "crystal ball" type questions, but what do you all think about that one?

8. Room allocation - Do we have a firm written commitment yet as to there being a single pool for weeks and point owners to draw from, or are they separate pools? To me, this is the biggest issue I see in the whole thing!!!

I am just trying to make some sense of this, so any firm answers to any of these would be greatly appreciated!!


----------



## scrapngen

SueDonJ said:


> My 5750 points for a Plat OS 3BR at SurfWatch gets me during the same weeks of my season a Plat 2BR OS at OceanWatch (good example of a similar area/location newer resort) for anywhere between 3175 and 4725 points depending on which week.  The 4725 is the highest-demand July 4th holiday, it's 3175 for the earliest/latest weeks in the season, the remaining weeks in the season require 4175.  All of those would give me back points which could be banked for the following year or used in the same year for off-season stays of any number of nights.  If I didn't enroll in Points, my 3BR SW deposit wouldn't get me anything more than the 2BR at OceanWatch (which would possibly be a gardenview as an exchanger,) considering that this year the SW week is not eligible for an AC if deposited.
> 
> Look Tombo, I posted in another thread that I understand what you mean by "skimming" and I'm not thrilled with it either.  But the way I figure, it's offset by the impact that this will have on inventory in the Weeks system.
> 
> I also posted throughout those months of speculation that I expected points inflation to occur between resorts, I expected that whatever Marriott did they certainly would not be concerned about resale values and would negatively impact them if they could, I expected that the inventory in II would be negatively impacted at least to the extent that Starwood was able to do so.  None of those are a surprise.  All of them will exist from this point forward regardless of the system you choose.
> 
> What IS a surprise is the relatively low enrollment and annual fees (for direct purchases) even considering that Club Dues will probably increase at the rate of m/f.  I LOVE the flexibility of the Points system - it's another thing that I posted repeatedly.  I said if it was rolled out as an overlay exchange system offering a marriage of DVC's system with Marriott's resorts then "I'd be over the moon."  Well, that's what it's rolled out to be - why wouldn't I be happy?  Everything that I like about DVC is here:  home resort reservations procedures and m/f (although not for new owners who can only buy Points,) flexibility with more or less than 7 night stays, banking and borrowing, instant reservation confirmations ...
> 
> I'm still looking at it, haven't committed yet.  There are some contract things that I want to be aware of, and certainly the inconsistencies that seem to be happening with SW's point values need to be fixed.  (It isn't that 2- and 3-BR units are supposed to be assigned the same values, btw, it's that the system appears to be incorrectly doing that now.  They're aware of the problem and looking into it.)  But it simply comes down to, Points might work better for me on a consistent basis than Weeks have in the past or will in the future, especially with the Premier Plus advantage.
> 
> What works or doesn't work for you may not be the same for somebody else.  I'm not implying that you may not understand things enough to see or not see the advantages/disadvantages in your choice.  I sure wish I wasn't reading that implication in your words.



Sue, I totally see how you'd love this. The Premier Plus benefits are pretty sweet!  Added to fee structure change which also sounds like you'll come out ahead and I agree that the only thing you need to look at is the contract specifics and language. You fit the owner profile that I see (and have posted)  winning in this new game. 

While I am leaning negatively on the whole thing, I hope I haven't said anything negative towards those like you who will probably choose to join. 
If I had picked up a resale before this date and it put me over the 13000 points, I'd be happy, too, and looking forward to working with the flexibility of the new system.  

 I was very hopeful/excited about the use of points, but I no longer see it that way for me...My high powered weeks won't get me equivalent trades - only down trades and I can already do that, and the flexibility gained with Premier level isn't much different than my current 13 month rule.


----------



## jjking42

No way

My legends edge platinum only get 2250 points
the chart show 5 seasons to book back in
2950,2675,2675,2675,1225

I think I will keep booking platinum summer weeks and use them or rent them.

I am not interested in converting to points only to be able to book back in to silver season

I wonder if Marriot is planning on resale prices falling so they can pick up cheap inventory with ROFR and then resell it as points. This would give them inventory to sell with costs much cheaper than building new resorts.


----------



## SueDonJ

scrapngen said:


> Sue, I totally see how you'd love this. The Premier Plus benefits are pretty sweet!  Added to fee structure change which also sounds like you'll come out ahead and I agree that the only thing you need to look at is the contract specifics and language. You fit the owner profile that I see (and have posted)  winning in this new game.
> 
> While I am leaning negatively on the whole thing, I hope I haven't said anything negative towards those like you who will probably choose to join.
> If I had picked up a resale before this date and it put me over the 13000 points, I'd be happy, too, and looking forward to working with the flexibility of the new system.
> 
> I was very hopeful/excited about the use of points, but I no longer see it that way for me...My high powered weeks won't get me equivalent trades - only down trades and I can already do that, and the flexibility gained with Premier level isn't much different than my current 13 month rule.



Thanks gen, I haven't seen anything from you that seems to imply a lack of understanding on the part of other folks who might be in favor of this.   

It's totally understandable if someone says, "In my shoes it doesn't make sense to enroll."  What I'm having trouble understanding are the posts from folks who don't make any allowances for wearing someone else's shoes, or the posts from folks who are implying that no one can possibly find value in enrolling in Points.  I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise, though - TUG has always had a divided population based on the differences between usage value and cost value.  Now we're just adding point costs to the mix.


----------



## tombo

jjking42 said:


> No way
> 
> My legends edge platinum only get 2250 points
> the chart show 5 seasons to book back in
> 2950,2675,2675,2675,1225
> 
> .



John another example of an owner that is getting less points than the lowest number of points required for his season. He can't even purchase any week in his season next year if he saves hi points this year.You said this doesn't happen. many Tuggers have shown you where it does. here is another one.


----------



## AceValenta

tombo said:


> John another example of an owner that is getting less points than the lowest number of points required for his season. He can't even purchase any week in his season next year if he saves hi points this year.You said this doesn't happen. many Tuggers have shown you where it does. here is another one.



From The FAQ Page: 



> Does anything change after I enroll my week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?
> *
> None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program*, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. *If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. You never have to elect Vacation Club Points unless you want to*. When you do elect Vacation Club Points, you will be able to redeem them for a vacation at another Marriott Vacation Club resort directly without exchanging through Interval International. You also will be able to check-in any day of the week, select the villa size that best accommodates your travel party and determine the length of your stay. You are no longer locked into 1-week vacations. Vacation Club Points can also be used for exciting travel adventures through the Explorer Collection.



If you are a WEEKS Owner, you now will have 4 options:
1. Book your Week, as usual, and stay for your week. 
2. Book your Week, as usual, and Trade through II.
3. Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
4. Trade for Destination Points and book at another resort. 

You will always have your week, what you decide to do with it is your option. If you don't want to trade for Destination Points you don't have too. You can just book your week, the way you usually do. You will have your usual check in days. 

You don't use the Destination Points unless you want to go to another resort. It has nothing to do with booking your resort week according to this FAQ. 

I think the reason for the difference in points from what you receive and what Marriott receives to prevent an over glut of bookings for your week. If it requires more points for the Prime Weeks, then people will be less likely to fight for them. Thus, leaving the prime week members that reserved them through their week's program, not the Destinations Points.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> My 5750 points for a Plat OS 3BR at SurfWatch gets me during the same weeks of my season a Plat 2BR OS at OceanWatch (good example of a similar area/location newer resort) for anywhere between 3175 and 4725 points depending on which week.  The 4725 is the highest-demand July 4th holiday, it's 3175 for the earliest/latest weeks in the season, the remaining weeks in the season require 4175.  All of those would give me back points which could be banked for the following year or used in the same year for off-season stays of any number of nights.  If I didn't enroll in Points, my 3BR SW deposit wouldn't get me anything more than the 2BR at OceanWatch (which would possibly be a gardenview as an exchanger,) considering that this year the SW week is not eligible for an AC if deposited.
> 
> Look Tombo, I posted in another thread that I understand what you mean by "skimming" and I'm not thrilled with it either.  But the way I figure, it's offset by the impact that this will have on inventory in the Weeks system.
> 
> 
> 
> What IS a surprise is the relatively low enrollment and annual fees (for direct purchases) even considering that Club Dues will probably increase at the rate of m/f.  I LOVE the flexibility of the Points system - it's another thing that I posted repeatedly.  I said if it was rolled out as an overlay exchange system offering a marriage of DVC's system with Marriott's resorts then "I'd be over the moon."  Well, that's what it's rolled out to be - why wouldn't I be happy?  Everything that I like about DVC is here:  home resort reservations procedures and m/f (although not for new owners who can only buy Points,) flexibility with more or less than 7 night stays, banking and borrowing, instant reservation confirmations ...
> 
> I'm still looking at it, haven't committed yet.  There are some contract things that I want to be aware of, and certainly the inconsistencies that seem to be happening with SW's point values need to be fixed.  (It isn't that 2- and 3-BR units are supposed to be assigned the same values, btw, it's that the system appears to be incorrectly doing that now.
> 
> What works or doesn't work for you may not be the same for somebody else.  I'm not implying that you may not understand things enough to see or not see the advantages/disadvantages in your choice.



I too am very surprised that the conversion costs for owners who bought from marriott are so cheap, but as a resale owner not surprised we got a bad deal there.

I just assume the typical Marriott  response of we are looking into it and that doesn't sound right to me really means that your 3 bed room points will remain the same as those for a 2 bed room and unless it is in writing it is doubtful that you will receive more points. If it was a glitch or an error it could have been easily fixed in a short period of time (JMO), but maybe Marriott will change it. 

I was figuring that getting the same points for a 3 bed room as a 2 bed room gets would leave you in the same boat as before with regards to exchanging, but if it works for you, good. You are one of the few. I am resale and subject to the expensive conversion, my points allocation will not get me any of the trades I have receievd in the past, and will not even get me my own week thanks to Marriott "skimming points", and I do not want to have Marriott have a blank check each year deciding what my week is worth,i don't like them  dreaming up new ways to make my week less valuable if I decide to sell it, and I can't stomach the fact that i don't have enough points each year to even reserve a week in my season using my points. 

If it works like DVC, good for you, but DVC never started out with weeks and then swapped all owners to points, they were points all along. With some first class points members and some second class weeks owners all fighting each other and marriott for the prime inventory i can't imagine it working anything like the DVC system works.

 Good luck and of course if the new system is best for you I would expect you to convert. When they totally revamp the whole system surelly there has to be a couple of owners who benefit and you might be one of them. good for you. On the other hand it is not best for me and I am not hapy about what marriott has done to myself and many other owners.


----------



## kbreth

*II membership paid through 2013*

Sorry if this question has been answered before, its hard to keep up with the long thread.

I am on vacation at oceanwatch and don't have the time to go to the sales presentation (2 kids with one of them taking a nap ).  I tried to get a packet or something to read in the room but of course everyone is busy and part of the website is unavailable to view what my resort weeks are worth for trading .

Silver Barony Beach OV

Waiohai platinum  Island view.

Also I paid for 5 year membership for II on July 3, 2008 till 2013.  What happens to the $201.60 credit left if I join the new points program?

Also how long can you bank points? (to use to go to Hawaii in 2 or 3 years)

As far as I see it I'll have no other choice but to join since the good weeks will only be available to points members.  We usually travel in summer due to kids school schedule.  Next year we're thinking of going to Orlando & then the beach afterwards and would like to go back to Hawaii in 2012 or 2013 but I probably won't have enough points to have a 2nd week anywhere(after using my home resort)

Still confused.


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## PamK

The $165-$199 annual dues include lockoff fees, turn to Marriott Rewards points, exchange to timeshares using an internal trade and Interval's annual fee. It does not include Interval exchange fees. There was some confusion over this fact and I had it clarified today with Marriott.


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## BocaBum99

wuv pooh said:


> John, I get this, but is there any reason why the total points do not seem to match?  For my Harbour Lake Gold:
> 
> There are currently 20 weeks x 1,950 = 39,000 total points
> 
> in the new system there are 8 x 1,725 and 12 x 2,225 = 40,400 total points
> 
> Shouldn't everyone have received 2,020 points = 40,400/20
> 
> If everyone converted they could not exchange the points given for the points required for the season.  What happened to those points?  Is that a skim or a required cost of flexibility for some reason?
> 
> I also note that 2 former platinum weeks have been demoted to gold status so that will change things slightly.



I think John was thinking with his gut instead of with his head.  Given all the data I have seen, it appears that Marriott is indeed shorting owners on their points.  This example is the typical one.

Until I see a mass of owners expressing point values that are greater than what it costs to get that same week, I'll just have to conclude that John couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## wa.mama

For a multiple week owner the cost of enrollment might make sense over the long run.  Our family owns 10 weeks, so the $199/year "club dues" is much less expensive than locking off, exchanging, etc.

BUT we're not falling for it.  Reasons?  We bought to use, not to trade.  Marriott wants our weeks, which are almost exclusively platinum plus, but in exchange they want *us* to pay for their access to our weeks.  In addition, I am peeved that they are offering the SAME number of points for my Waiohai platinum plus as they are for a regular floating week.  Here are the points on offer for some of our units:

koolina  floating IV - 4025
waiohai  floating IV - 4225
waiohai fixed wk 51 IV - 4225 
timberlodge fixed week 7- 5300

In addition, the number of destination points we potentially have would give us the platinum plus benefits of booking 13 months in advance.  So?  Is that something we don't already have?  We'd also be honored with the privilege of booking shorter intervals of 1-2 nights using a premium number of destination points.  So?  Easier to use regular Marriott award points for that.  Exchanging domestically may give us more time at an off-season low demand resort, but exchanging internationally requires more points than our plat plus weeks generate.  Plus, I'd be giving up my AC's, which we faithfully garner with our Ko Olina trader.

I'm curious to see who signs up.


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## taffy19

GregT said:


> This is exactly how I feel.
> 
> Marriott would have skimmed 1,575 from the points for each of my weeks -- that's $630 in MF-value that Marriott will pocket if I ever enrolled and redeemed my property for points, for each week.
> 
> If someone's week is worth 4,500 points accordingly to Marriott, but Marriott skims 900 points from that week and only gives 3,600 points, that's $360 in hidden profit to Marriott on the exchange.
> 
> I'm using MF-value because someone, somewhere will buy points from Marriott to use in this system, and they'll pay $400 for every 1,000 points.
> 
> Isn't the up-front of $695 and annual fee of $199 enough?   Did they have to skim too?
> 
> They must have done a financial calculation and figured out that they're better off skimming from 5% of the existing owners who join then getting direct cash in up-front payments/annual fees if 25% of the existing owners joined.  Very callous and damaging to their brand with their formally loyal owners.
> 
> My letter to Marriott:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124262


Thank you for this post as you have made me decide not to enroll in the new system.  I saw the light.


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## tombo

AceValenta said:


> From The FAQ Page:
> 
> 
> You don't use the Destination Points unless you want to go to another resort. It has nothing to do with booking your resort week according to this FAQ.
> 
> I think the reason for the difference in points from what you receive and what Marriott receives to prevent an over glut of bookings for your week. If it requires more points for the Prime Weeks, then people will be less likely to fight for them. Thus, leaving the prime week members that reserved them through their week's program, not the Destinations Points.




Marriott had 2 owners (me and you) deposit two 5000 points weeks into the bank. I get 4500 points from Marriott for my week they will rent to you fr 5000 points. You get 4500 points for your week Marriott rents me for 5000 points. We both have to buy, rent, or borrow points to have enough to rent the respective weeks even though they were equal deposits. Marriott makes 1000 points profit on the two identical weeks we deposited with Marriott. 

Marriott took our 2 weeks we own and pay MF's on, then they charged us to convert to points, charged us an annual membership fee, and they make 1000 points on the 2 identical weeks we deposited and swapped as their icing on the cake. Sure it matters when Marriott give owners less points for depositing their weeks than the amount they charge other owners to rent it, even if you still can use your home resort. If Marriott rents my week for 5000 points, they should give me 5000 points for depositing it. It is my week I purchased, pay taxes on, and pay annual MF's to upgrade, maintain, and renovate my week. Anything less given to the owner of the week than the amount Marriott charges to stay there is downright theft!


----------



## ArtsieAng

BocaBum99 said:


> I think John was thinking with his gut instead of with his head.  Given all the data I have seen, it appears that Marriott is indeed shorting owners on their points.  This example is the typical one.
> 
> *Until I see a mass of owners expressing point values that are greater than what it costs to get that same week, I'll just have to conclude that John couldn't be more wrong*.




Jim, I think it's the exact opposite. I have not been allocated enough points to reserve ANY week in my season. Others have stated the exact same situation.......I think most that have been given enough point to reserve within their season have only been given enough points to reserve the less desirable weeks.

There seem to be very few exceptions to the above, as far as I can see.


----------



## wsrobinson

MountainGal said:


> I'm just curious as to what will happen to future resales.  It sure seems Marriott should have allowed those purchasing on the resale market after June 20 to consider the points program.  It's revenue to Marriott and for every week that converts to points, it's a plus for Marriott's point program.  In fact, it would be a source of potential buyers of new points to supplement what they already have.  Any thoughts on why the June 20 date was set to exclude future resales.  Am I missing something?



I was told yesterday that they are "looking into this".  I have a week I bought on Saturday and was told it hadnt been addressed yet but would soon.  She said the likely outcome was to allow both recent developer and non-developer purchases into the new system.


----------



## SueDonJ

BocaBum99 said:


> I think John was thinking with his gut instead of with his head.  Given all the data I have seen, it appears that Marriott is indeed shorting owners on their points.  This example is the typical one.
> 
> Until I see a mass of owners expressing point values that are greater than what it costs to get that same week, I'll just have to conclude that John couldn't be more wrong.



I'm more concerned with how this works than with who is wrong or right, and I think that the answer lies in the fact that the usage point charts we're reviewing are for exchange use and not for use at the home resort of the owned weeks.  But I don't know the first thing about discovering if that or something else is the explanation. 

It would shock me to learn that any timeshare company is allowed to pluck any number of points out of thin air willy-nilly to sell, and does not have to correlate those numbers to the intervals available for use.  Presumably Marriott has filed all the necessary disclosures with all the proper licensing agencies - maybe our resident lawyers can find them.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> ... Sure it matters when Marriott give owners less points for depositing their weeks than the amount they charge other owners to rent it, even if you still can use your home resort. If Marriott rents my week for 5000 points, they should give me 5000 points for depositing it. ...



If you substitute "Marriott Reward Points" for "Destination Club Points" in your example above, do you see that this is EXACTLY the same as what's been occurring with the MRP-exchange option in the current system?  I'm not saying this as an excuse, just thinking that the same mechanics for it being allowed (legally) in the optional MRP-exchange system may be what allows it in the optional Points system.


----------



## tombo

I am sure that Marriott justifies skimming points as exchange expenses or some other reason. However they try to justify it, no one at any resort can take their skimmed points allocation and book at any resort that has identical values to what it costs to stay in their deposited week. If the week you deposit is valued by Narriott at 5000 points, you will not be given 5000 points annually to use to trade for another 5000 point week at another comparable resort. This not only ends the good ole days of trading up, this is the end of all like for like trades! Under points you can only trade down. How's that for flexibility?


----------



## Y-ASK

Well I'm leaning towards signing up.  I agree with SueDonJ that the system is not for everyone.  In my case I will probably never stay at my home resort again.  I've got plenty of other options in Orlando so there's no need for Harbour Lakes, but if I can get to the beach on points every other summer when the kids are out of school (I know a big IF), then it will be worth it to me.  Also if the summer weeks don't work out then I should be able to use them during the Fall/Winter months to go play golf in either Williamburg or Myrtle Beach.

Plus the ability to possibly rent/transfer points from another owner may allow me to go every summer at a reasonable cost to me.

Speaking of the golf and the Manor Club, I wonder what happens to all those rounds of golf that some owners get each year after they enroll. I think it's like six rounds...

Y-ASK


----------



## SueDonJ

Y-ASK said:


> Well I'm leaning towards signing up.  I agree with SueDonJ that the system is not for everyone.  In my case I will probably never stay at my home resort again.  I've got plenty of other options in Orlando so there's no need for Harbour Lakes, but if I can get to the beach on points every other summer when the kids are out of school (I know a big IF), then it will be worth it to me.  Also if the summer weeks don't work out then I should be able to use them during the Fall/Winter months to go play golf in either Williamburg or Myrtle Beach.
> 
> Plus the ability to possibly rent/transfer points from another owner may allow me to go every summer at a reasonable cost to me.
> 
> Speaking of the golf and the Manor Club, I wonder what happens to all those rounds of golf that some owners get each year after they enroll. I think it's like six rounds...
> 
> Y-ASK



But you do understand that if you enroll in Points you CAN reserve your week at your resort the exact same way you could before?  Availability may become an issue more than it has been, but you are not limited for home resort use by the amount of points you're allotted for exchanges.


----------



## wsrobinson

floyddl said:


> It seems to me Marriott could have ensured the new program was a success by offering comparable value for the points required to make a week reservation at your resort.  The money to be made here is in the volume of members paying the annual fee.  By enticing large numbers of members to joing and pay the initiation fee plus annual fee they could have ensured a good inventory of weeks and maximized the revenue from the start.  Instead they have chosen to create an inequity that alienates many owners and they will essentially build the point program from the ground up on future sales.  Seems somewhat short sighted to forego revenue and to alienate owners at the same time.



I agree completely with this.  I think there would be much less negative sentiment regarding the program.


----------



## wsrobinson

MountainGal said:


> Just occurred to me that if you were to join the points program, you are essentially lowering your resale value - if that ever gets figured out.  Right now as a deed owner, you have one week (or more depending on number).  Once you're in the "club", your points may or may not be enough for a week at the various resorts.   Who would that attract on the resale market.  So I would think holding a deed to a week may end up being more to folks liking - at a much cheaper price than buying directly from Marriott.  I understand that holding a deeded week may end up not being as "flexible" as it previously was, but my deed is becoming more attractive.



Enrolling in the program doesn't dissolve your deed.  Your week remains deeded and you can always opt out of the program if you wish.


----------



## wuv pooh

wa.mama said:


> For a multiple week owner the cost of enrollment might make sense over the long run.  Our family owns 10 weeks, so the $199/year "club dues" is much less expensive than locking off, exchanging, etc.
> 
> BUT we're not falling for it.  Reasons?  We bought to use, not to trade..



I don't get this.  You lose nothing by joining except for the fee to join which is offset by points.

You save a bundle at $199 each year vs. current fees

You NEVER have to actually use points if you don't want to.

You keep the flexibility to use points in the future if it is to your advantage.

You can quit your annual commitment whenever you want if you hate it.

Why would you turn down the savings and flexibility?  

You lose nothing by joining and potentially have great benefits in the future.  It is a free option on the future.


----------



## wuv pooh

iconnections said:


> Thank you for this post as you have made me decide not to enroll in the new system.  I saw the light.



Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up?  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?  If you opted out will you be able to get back in?

Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> Argh.  Still can't access through the "Enroll Now" button but today's rep said the same thing - there are issues with Macs that they are working on.  THANK YOU to everyone who suggested that I could try another browser.  But this is a new laptop that runs lightning-fast and has had no problems other than this one - Marriott stuff has always loaded correctly.  As long as they say they're working on it and I can eventually get in, I really prefer to not change anything on my comp now that I finally have figured out how to use it!  The rep says IT folks are currently not available while the rollout continues - I should give it two days for tweaks and then I can deal directly with IT if the problems continue.
> 
> Today's rep gave me a different value for SW 3BR Plat OS - 5,750 as opposed to the 5,000 from yesterday's rep (other values from yesterday are the same.)  It looks like what Dean says is correct - SurfWatch 2BR weeks are being given 3BR week values when they access that link.  What's interesting is that Don can't access the "Enroll Now" button on our account through his PC browser at work today, so maybe the problem is with SW data and not my Mac?  Hmmmmm.
> 
> I asked about a rescission period.  This rep said that if you commit to enrollment your VISA will be charged and the paperwork (including governing docs) will be sent immediately.  If you don't sign and return the contract your VISA will be credited (don't know/remember the time frame?); if you do sign and return the contract you will then have a 4-day right to rescind.
> 
> I still won't commit to enrollment until these computer and point inconsistencies are corrected, but this is definitely something that looks like it will work for our ownership ... thanks for helping me figure it out.


Did you try Firefox?  I had no problem there but couldn't get through with Safari.


----------



## wsrobinson

tiel said:


> Just got off the phone with a supposed "points specialist", and my head is spinning!  She's got me confused beyond belief, and I'm hoping someone will be able to clear things up for me.
> 
> The questions I posed to her was:  if I enroll in the MVCDestination program, what will the maintenance fees be for my units in the following situations:  If I do NOT convert a week to Club points in a given year, will my MFs for that year be like they always have been...whatever is determined by the BOD?  If I do convert a week to Club points, what will the MF be based on then?
> 
> What I was trying to find out is WHEN or IF the $400/1000pts MF calculation comes into play after you enroll in the program if you are a legacy owner.
> 
> I was told that, regardless of whether I convert a week to Club points or not, my MFs will be based on MY "beneficial interest" as compared to the total of all "beneficial interests" in the "pot" (Club).  She went on to say, in all likelihood, I will end up with LOWER MFs than in the past.
> 
> HUH????  Now, I don't understand that AT ALL!
> 
> Has anyone else heard anything remotely like this?  Does anyone know what the real answer to my question is?   :annoyed:   Plan to call back to speak to a different rep, but thought someone out there might be able to help also.




From what I have read/seen your maintenance fees will be based on your deeded weeks.  When/if you buy additional points from Marriott, then you will have a maintenance fee associated with your points in addition to the MF associated to your deeded weeks.


----------



## jhpetri

As I read the new rules I am confused about the Marriott Rewards part. It says that if your an external owner and your property is "eligible" for reward points (under the new system) you could get them when you sign up for the points program. Which properties are eligible ? Translation please


----------



## Dean

Dave M said:


> No more than 50% of *any* week can be taken more than 12 months in advance. Thus, if there are 150 units at a certain resort, no more than 75 of those units for (as an example) week 47 can be reserved more than 12 months in advance. The remainder will be available at 12 months, although points owners might be clamoring for those weeks at 12 months, too! (Note the "for each Use Period" language in my text that you quoted.)


Dave I think Marriott can change this unilaterally because it's a reservation component.  



dougp26364 said:


> When there's a 500 pound gorilla in the room, it's best not to ignore it.
> 
> I was a HUGE Marriott backer. Now that I've seen the plan.....not so much. What can I say, in one stroke of the pen Marriott moved me from supporting them to supporting Perry. If you've followed Perry and my posts, that's not necessarily and easy thing to do. Perry and I have debated various subjects for a long time. This may be the first time we're on the same page.


I was hoping for a plan more friendly to the masses but it still likely works for me and my situation.  Still trying to figure out some specific issues though.



DanCali said:


> Yes, this is exactly what is happening...


We know there is a spread, the question is why.  I speculate that at least part of the spread is due to inefficiencies in a day by day reservations system.  Interesting to see what answers we get over the next couple of years form Marriott's direction.  One can still reserve what you have already and not suffer the spread, nothing lost that is contractual.



> But the price of future flexibility is fairy small.


Exactly, there are positives and negatives but the decreased nickel and dime costs are not to be discounted.


----------



## wsrobinson

jan.swim said:


> As I read the new rules I am confused about the Marriott Rewards part. It says that if your an external owner and your property is "eligible" for reward points (under the new system) you could get them when you sign up for the points program. Which properties are eligible ? Translation please



If the property you own sold weeks with RP as an annual/bi-annual trade option, then you would have the option with the new program.


----------



## Frisbeeace

tombo said:


> Marriott had 2 owners (me and you) deposit two 5000 points weeks into the bank. I get 4500 points from Marriott for my week they will rent to you fr 5000 points. You get 4500 points for your week Marriott rents me for 5000 points. We both have to buy, rent, or borrow points to have enough to rent the respective weeks even though they were equal deposits. Marriott makes 1000 points profit on the two identical weeks we deposited with Marriott.
> 
> Marriott took our 2 weeks we own and pay MF's on, then they charged us to convert to points, charged us an annual membership fee, and they make 1000 points on the 2 identical weeks we deposited and swapped as their icing on the cake. Sure it matters when Marriott give owners less points for depositing their weeks than the amount they charge other owners to rent it, even if you still can use your home resort. If Marriott rents my week for 5000 points, they should give me 5000 points for depositing it. It is my week I purchased, pay taxes on, and pay annual MF's to upgrade, maintain, and renovate my week. Anything less given to the owner of the week than the amount Marriott charges to stay there is downright theft!



Heeelloooo!! This has been happening with the trade-for-points option for years and the spread increases with each devaluation. I get 110,000 Marriott Rewards points for each of my weeks but it takes 180,000 to book at them. The points you get are fixed forever but the amount of points required to redeem a stay goes up periodically. That's how greedy Marriott makes profits with our properties without compensating us accordingly. I bet, we can expect the same with the new system.


----------



## taffy19

wuv pooh said:


> Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up?  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?  If you opted out will you be able to get back in?
> 
> Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.


The points I lose are a hidden cost because I have to pay them again if I have to buy back what I had before to get an equivalent week at another resort.

Also, once you enroll, you are in the trust.  What happens to your voting rights, etc.?  What stops the Marriott from making more changes in the future that make us lose more value or will cost more?  What about re-sale values of points?  

On top of that we hardly ever exchange and there are other ways to do it.


----------



## Y-ASK

SueDonJ said:


> But you do understand that if you enroll in Points you CAN reserve your week at your resort the exact same way you could before?  Availability may become an issue more than it has been, but you are not limited for home resort use by the amount of points you're allotted for exchanges.


Yep!  I'm pretty comfortable with the procedures and the way the system works.  Hopefully I'll be able to find ways to make it even better for my family as time passes...

Y-ASK

And I fully understand the loss of points or skimming as some have called it and I can accept that.  The only issue I may have is if I continuely get turned down year after year for the weeks that I really want to use.  If that happens I'll just offer up my deed for sale.  Maybe someone will want to take advantage of the fact that is is already enrolled and they should be able to pay the additional enrollment fee to transfer it over so they will be able to use it for points as well.


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up?  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?  If you opted out will you be able to get back in?
> 
> Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.



I am reluctantly beginning to reach the same conclusion.  I may enroll even though I have no current intention to ever use points, and do not like the new system.  As the owner of 5 weeks, all purchased resale, the ability to pay $400 per week to have all of my weeks become "developer" weeks seems like it may be good insurance, if nothing else.


----------



## JimIg23

I think the points that were allocated where based on purchase price.  

NCV:  3475 points (no where near what they want for a summer week - 4700)

Cost PP to join: 9.2?

3475 * 9.2: $31970

A few thosusand short of what a NCV costs....

Does that math work for any other owner?


----------



## wsrobinson

SueDonJ said:


> But you do understand that if you enroll in Points you CAN reserve your week at your resort the exact same way you could before?  Availability may become an issue more than it has been, but you are not limited for home resort use by the amount of points you're allotted for exchanges.



Sue,

I just tried Firefox on my Mac and that appears to be the problem.  Safari just won't allow the "enroll now" button.  Also, they updated my point values to 4200 for SurfWatch 2 BD Plat OS.  Good luck!


----------



## myip

hipslo said:


> I am reluctantly beginning to reach the same conclusion.  I may enroll even though I have no current intention to ever use points, and do not like the new system.  As the owner of 5 weeks, all purchased resale, the ability to pay $400 per week to have all of my weeks become "developer" weeks seems like it may be good insurance, if nothing else.



After conversion,  can you convert the club points to Marriott Hotel Points?


----------



## wsrobinson

JimIg23 said:


> I think the points that were allocated where based on purchase price.
> 
> NCV:  3475 points (no where near what they want for a summer week - 4700)
> 
> Cost PP to join: 9.2?
> 
> 3475 * 9.2: $31970
> 
> A few thousand short of what a NCV costs....
> 
> Does that math work for any other owner?



In my case, no it comes to $38,640 (unless that's current pricing which may be the case.  I also thought the MRP calculation was interesting 4200 * 33 = 138600 (which is really close to the 135K I can currently redeem it for).  Are these coincidences???


----------



## wsrobinson

myip said:


> After conversion,  can you convert the club points to Marriott Hotel Points?



Yes at a conversion rate of 33 to 1.


----------



## urple2

After looking thru 32 pages of posts...it is obvious that mama marriott has us all wacked out!

The bottom line and it won't be ground breaking news is that each of us will have to make a decision based on our own particular situation.

There are some who have a whole lot of money wrapped up in this thing and also maybe have fears of not getting the prime weeks they need for their families vacations.

For me, I got a few grand wrapped up in this and I'm not looking to pump anything more into getting less. In my view, I got my money out of this with some super vacations that I wouldn't have gone to with what they would have cost me.

I look at these timeshares just like a used vehicle... It got me where I needed to get to and must decide whether to pump more money into it, cut it lose or just ride it out till the wheels fall off. I have chosen the latter and maybe it won't be all that bad.

With all the topics discussed, its hard to deny, that where you use to get to with what you had, is gonna cost you more and may not have enough points to where you want to go.

My summit watch, that a studio lock-off portion would get me into aruba... ain't gonna cut it at 2150 points.(at 2150 points I ain't going no where for that matter!)

The discussions have been great and we are lucky as a group to be able to hash this all out but again it will be an individual decision.

Good luck to all!


----------



## Frisbeeace

wuv pooh said:


> I don't get this.  You lose nothing by joining except for the fee to join which is offset by points.
> 
> You save a bundle at $199 each year vs. current fees



You lose money every year in which you take the option to occupy your own resort, trade for MR points (unless you own more than 1 week) or deposit the week with II. 



wuv pooh said:


> You can quit your annual commitment whenever you want if you hate it.



Are you sure that you can leave the system at any time?


----------



## m61376

timeos2 said:


> They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group.  There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for.  To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.



Actually, that is not true at least in some of the resorts. I might understand your point IF Marriott, in fact, average the point requirements for all weeks in a given season, so that you received more points than needed to book some weeks, the same as others cost, and less than some of the weeks.

While I realize you can use your week to book a week at any of the resorts, there are some properties where the point values assigned would not allow an owner to book even a single week in their season if they were booking with points. At the Surf Club, for example, EVERY Plat. week costs more than the point allotment. If I went for 6 days I would barely make it for some weeks, and possibly not even have enough points for others.

That means that I can never trade for anything through the points system that Marriott considers an equivalent property, because I wasn't given a point allotment equivalent to my cost value.


----------



## wuv pooh

Frisbeeace said:


> You lose money every year in which you take the option to occupy your own resort, trade for MR points (unless you own more than 1 week) or deposit the week with II.



No I don't, and neither will the majority

Lower fee for my current usage pattern:

Current - II - $89
lockoff - $75
2 internal trades - $218
Total = $382

System fee = $165





Frisbeeace said:


> Are you sure that you can leave the system at any time?



Yes.  It is clearly stated in the disclosure document that Marriott or the owner can cancel the contract in every year at their discretion.


----------



## scrapngen

JimIg23 said:


> I think the points that were allocated where based on purchase price.
> 
> NCV:  3475 points (no where near what they want for a summer week - 4700)
> 
> Cost PP to join: 9.2?
> 
> 3475 * 9.2: $31970
> 
> A few thosusand short of what a NCV costs....
> 
> Does that math work for any other owner?



Doesn't work where Waiohai fixed 51 week Platinum Plus (obviously purchased at a higher dollar amount from developer)  is given the *same *amount of points as a floating Waiohai Platinum week!!!!! Yes, this is comparing same view to same view.   

But the reservation point fee for that 51 week is much higher than any of the float weeks!!


----------



## dioxide45

wuv pooh said:


> Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up?  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?  If you opted out will you be able to get back in?
> 
> Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.



I see this a lot in your posts. You seem like a salesman selling on fear. Is that the best way to buy any product? This whole marketing scheme is like a retail TS purchase, buy now or it will be gone tomorrow. We know how that usually works. Call back on 1/1/2011, the same price and offer is on the table.


----------



## catharsis

*Down-Sides of Enrolling (NOTHING to do with point valuations  )*

Everyone,

Several posters keep repeating - *"if I enroll but keep requesting my normal week nothing changes."

This is demonstrably untrue*

Please note the following consequences of enrolling.

1. *voting rights in your HOA go to Marriott, and cannot contractually be used to vote against marriott or dismiss them as managers (IIRC)

2. By enrolling you grant to Marriott the right to change terms and conditions (i.e the contract) in the future at their sole discretion without recourse to you, the owner.*

3. (possible) If you reserve a week in the normal way and then wish to deposit that week with II this deposit is done through Marriott's corporate II membership - has anyone ruled out the possibility of Marriott pulling SVN-style bait-and-swithes on NON-POINTS-USING trust members.

4. If you wish to 'request-first' will it be only possible using your own individual II membership which you will have to pay for in addition to the 'club dues' ?

5. Club Dues (unlike II membership, lock-off fees etc. are NOT optional and are required even if you wish only to use your week (I am not certain on this one, but I'm sure someone else can confirm - I seem to recall seeing somewhere during my initial scan that you could lose membership for not paying club fues)

6. If wishing to do external exchanges with II there are no benefits to being in the club and you pay the normal exchange fee.

7.Just a possibiilty - but is it safe to assume that 'internal' week-based exchanges will be possible using the II corporate account ? - will they not instead say 'use points?' - hence the 'marriott internal preference' may only be available to non-trust-members or members who retain their own II membership?

I think the issue of ceding the voting rights, in particular, should give people significant pause before they rush into anything.


----------



## RandR

SueDonJ said:


> My 5750 points for a Plat OS 3BR at SurfWatch gets me during the same weeks of my season a Plat 2BR OS at OceanWatch (good example of a similar area/location newer resort) for anywhere between 3175 and 4725 points depending on which week.  The 4725 is the highest-demand July 4th holiday, it's 3175 for the earliest/latest weeks in the season, the remaining weeks in the season require 4175.  All of those would give me back points which could be banked for the following year or used in the same year for off-season stays of any number of nights.  If I didn't enroll in Points, my 3BR SW deposit wouldn't get me anything more than the 2BR at OceanWatch (which would possibly be a gardenview as an exchanger,) considering that this year the SW week is not eligible for an AC if deposited.
> 
> Look Tombo, I posted in another thread that I understand what you mean by "skimming" and I'm not thrilled with it either.  But the way I figure, it's offset by the impact that this will have on inventory in the Weeks system.
> 
> I also posted throughout those months of speculation that I expected points inflation to occur between resorts, I expected that whatever Marriott did they certainly would not be concerned about resale values and would negatively impact them if they could, I expected that the inventory in II would be negatively impacted at least to the extent that Starwood was able to do so.  None of those are a surprise.  All of them will exist from this point forward regardless of the system you choose.
> 
> What IS a surprise is the relatively low enrollment and annual fees (for direct purchases) even considering that Club Dues will probably increase at the rate of m/f.  I LOVE the flexibility of the Points system - it's another thing that I posted repeatedly.  I said if it was rolled out as an overlay exchange system offering a marriage of DVC's system with Marriott's resorts then "I'd be over the moon."  Well, that's what it's rolled out to be - why wouldn't I be happy?  Everything that I like about DVC is here:  home resort reservations procedures and m/f (although not for new owners who can only buy Points,) flexibility with more or less than 7 night stays, banking and borrowing, instant reservation confirmations ...
> 
> I'm still looking at it, haven't committed yet.  There are some contract things that I want to be aware of, and certainly the inconsistencies that seem to be happening with SW's point values need to be fixed.  (It isn't that 2- and 3-BR units are supposed to be assigned the same values, btw, it's that the system appears to be incorrectly doing that now.  They're aware of the problem and looking into it.)  But it simply comes down to, Points might work better for me on a consistent basis than Weeks have in the past or will in the future, especially with the Premier Plus advantage.
> 
> What works or doesn't work for you may not be the same for somebody else.  I'm not implying that you may not understand things enough to see or not see the advantages/disadvantages in your choice.  I sure wish I wasn't reading that implication in your words.



Susan, I think what you hit is called the perfect storm.  Every category that would have advantages for the new program, you full into.  Not a bad position to be in.

The only caveat is that the home resort preference is only if yo stay in your full 3Bd, not if you want to take a 2bd and have something left over.  You won't have to worry as much about getting the good inventory first since you will be the highest level.


----------



## scrapngen

dioxide45 said:


> I see this a lot in your posts. You seem like a salesman selling on fear. Is that the best way to buy any product? This whole marketing scheme is like a retail TS purchase, buy now or it will be gone tomorrow. We know how that usually works. Call back on 1/1/2011, the same price and offer is on the table.



And if Marriott doesn't like the result by 12/31/10 there might be a better offer and the structure may be changed to entice more owners. Yet those who bought in the first heat will now be locked into whatever they signed, unless they wish to cancel and then try to get back in. But I'll be those new offers will only be for first time buyers into the club......:rofl:


----------



## catharsis

scrapngen said:


> Doesn't work where Waiohai fixed 51 week Platinum Plus (obviously purchased at a higher dollar amount from developer)  is given the *same *amount of points as a floating Waiohai Platinum week!!!!! Yes, this is comparing same view to same view.
> 
> But the reservation point fee for that 51 week is much higher than any of the float weeks!!



It does seem a little illogical of Marriott to behave this way - how do they expect to get (scarce fixed-week) inventory from owners such as yourself in order to offer them to other points members at the very high rates you mention?


----------



## wuv pooh

dioxide45 said:


> I see this a lot in your posts. You seem like a salesman selling on fear. Is that the best way to buy any product? This whole marketing scheme is like a retail TS purchase, buy now or it will be gone tomorrow. We know how that usually works. Call back on 1/1/2011, the same price and offer is on the table.



Oh Please   90% of the posts on this thread are negative and fear mongering without even the correct facts.

You can do what you want, but if next year or two years from now you have to buy a 1,000 point 'interval' to 'enroll' into the system then you will not be happy.

The point is that no one knows the future.  Again, why would you potentially limit your future options when the cost is low and known.

Think of it as Pascals wager.  If I am a crank then you lose nothing.  If I am not then you potentially exclude yourself from the new system for better or worse.

One thing is clear.  The points system is going to be the future.  At least in the near term 1-5 years.  I am not willing to gamble that it will fail when the ante is so cheap compared to my investment.


----------



## Frisbeeace

wuv pooh said:


> No I don't, and neither will the majority
> 
> Lower fee for my current usage pattern:
> 
> Current - II - $89
> lockoff - $75
> 2 internal trades - $218
> Total = $382
> 
> System fee = $165
> .



Most people have weeks that are weak traders in this system and won't trade them for points even if they join. So, in such case, discard the internal trade cost and you get even if you deposit a lockoff unit but you lose money if your unit does not have the lockoff feature, if you decide to occupy or trade in for MR points. The system is certainly not for most of use but only a minority.


----------



## NJDave

timeos2 said:


> The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.





The assigned value for Cypress Harbour Special Season (Plantinum) is lower than the mininmum value of every week in our season.


----------



## rsackett

wuv pooh said:


> Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.(For me $1995 is not free/low cost)  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up? (trade with another company, trade for non-marriott resorts, use my week)  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand? (What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people LESS points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?)   If you opted out will you be able to get back in? (If you buy in what happens with your voting rights? (Why spend the yearly fees if you plan to use your week at your resort?)
> Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years. (Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is good then I don't see the value in paying out $1995 to buy something of little value NOW when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.)



See my thoughts in RED above.

Ray


----------



## wuv pooh

Frisbeeace said:


> Most people have weeks that are weak traders in this system and won't trade them for points even if they join. So, in such case, discard the internal trade cost and you get even if you deposit a lockoff unit but you lose money if your unit does not have the lockoff feature, if you decide to occupy or trade in for MR points. The system is certainly not for most of use but only a minority.



You misunderstand the system.  You can enroll, reserve your week, deposit it in II, and make a WEEKS trade at no additional charge for internal Marriott exchanges.  Just like today only cheaper if you make one trade.

You still have to pay II if you request non-Marriott weeks.  Just like today.

Exchange Types: Internal vs. External
There are two types of exchanges, and Interval International is your source for both:

Internal Exchange

What: Exchange your week at your home resort for another week at your home resort that’s in a different season or year. or exchange during your same week, but travel to another Marriott Vacation Club Resort. 
*Enrolled Owners’ fees for internal exchanges are included in their Club Dues.*


----------



## winger

JimIg23 said:


> I think the points that were allocated where based on purchase price.
> 
> NCV:  3475 points (no where near what they want for a summer week - 4700)
> 
> Cost PP to join: 9.2?
> 
> 3475 * 9.2: $31970
> 
> A few thosusand short of what a NCV costs....
> 
> Does that math work for any other owner?


sure works for us, MMC Plat 2375 x 9.2 = 21,850


----------



## wuv pooh

rsackett said:


> See my thoughts in RED above.
> 
> Ray



Agree.  If you have to enroll resale weeks then you have a decision to make if the ante is worth the investment you have in the system.


----------



## gailo

*12 0r 13 month rule*

Right now I have 2 resorts that I use the 13 month rule to reserve. If I go to points (unlikely) I would only be able to reserve 12 months out. Does that apply to use of my home resort if I am a "points" owner or will I still get 13 months out ???


----------



## Frisbeeace

wuv pooh said:


> You misunderstand the system.  You can enroll, reserve your week, deposit it in II, and make a WEEKS trade at no additional charge for internal Marriott exchanges.  Just like today only cheaper if you make one trade.
> 
> You still have to pay II if you request non-Marriott weeks.  Just like today.



I understand the system but I think that internal Marriott exchanges through Interval won't happen anymore. The most desireable, high value weeks, which were already tough to get through Interval will be most likely turned into points in this new system which gives them more trading power as they deserve. So, I don't expect to get any beach, ski, high season Marriott week through II anymore in exchange for my Orlando Platinum week, of which are thousands around. I believe that owners of weaker trading weeks (the majority of us) will have to rely on external II exchanges from now on. Then, I don't put the internal exchange cost in the equation.


----------



## ann824

I am a little concerned about the fact that if you join you get a new interval number and become part of the corporate account.  I just wonder what kind of control they will end up with and will normal deposits be treated differently in the corporate account vs the old interval account we all have.   It could be that deposits made with the new numbers will end up in a pool for points owners and deposits made with the old interval accounts will not.  Will these deposits have the same value in Interval when exchanging.


----------



## tombo

rsackett said:


> See my thoughts in RED above.
> 
> Ray



Resale buyer here too, and I agree with your points 100%. 

I am not paying $1995 to get points that won't allow me to rent a week equal to what I deposit using those wonderful points marriott skims from owners on every deposit. Not paying $1995 just because I can still use my home resort and outside II exchanges after converting (I can do that without paying marriott's extortion). Not paying $1995 and giving up my vote to Marriott's trust. Not paying $1995 and conceding that Marriott can change the points it gives, the points it charges, or any other rule they want to change at any time that they feel like doing so. Not paying $1995 to Marriott after they killed my resale value by requiring a payment of at least $2000 to Marriott from anyone I can find to sell my week to if they want to keep the points rights I already paid $1995 to get. Finally I am definetelly NOT paying $1995 to convert to points because Marriott threatened me with the old "If you don't convert right now, you will never get a chance to do it again, and you will forever be sorry." I have heard that at plenty of sales presentations and so far I haven't been sorry one single time. I feel sure this threat will have the same outcome. In the long run I feel confidant that more people who pay the $1995 to convert will have remorse than those of us who refuse to pay. JMO.


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> The 4075 would represent each weeks share of the total pot of points represented by the season/designation of say "Platinum". Within that designation would be a number of weeks - some worth a low of 4125 up to some worth 4650.  Based on that the real number assigned to each owner week would actually fall between 4125 and 4650. Probably on the lower end like 4320 as there tend to be more lower value weeks than higher ones in most groupings. The average number obviously cannot be lower than the minimum value of any one week so 4075 isn't a possible assigned value.
> 
> Hope that helps.



John, you keep repeating this even though many posts point to the obvious fact that value is being skmmed by Marriott. Please read those posts... 

Vegas platinum is 1-52... every owner got less than what it takes to book what one of those weeks. NCV Platinum average is 3706 - owners got 3475... The list goes onand on. Saying owners get the average of their season if simply FALSE. Most owners got shortchanged even onthis metric.


----------



## Dean

They have corrected my Surfwatch points as well down to the level I suspected would be the case.  Also, check your points calculations carefully if you are looking on the online enrollment options as while it calculates my total correctly which includes an EOY even week, it gives me an extra 500 for 2011 when the EOY is not counted.


----------



## NJDave

wsrobinson said:


> Yes at a conversion rate of 33 to 1.




Is 33 to 1 a standard conversion rate to Marriott Reward Points?  If so, that could a benefit or a detriment of enrolling.  

Our unit would get 110,000 today but only 87,450 using a 33:1 ratio.


----------



## Dave M

gailo said:


> Right now I have 2 resorts that I use the 13 month rule to reserve. If I go to points (unlikely) I would only be able to reserve 12 months out. Does that apply to use of my home resort if I am a "points" owner or will I still get 13 months out ???


Whether or not you join the points system, you will still have all of the use options that are available to you now. Thus, you can still choose to reserve two consecutive or concurrent weeks for a particular year at 13 months. Or, if you join points, you can elect points for that year and be subject to the points rules.


----------



## gailo

Thanks Dave,
Have you answered the what do you think question?


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> No I don't, and neither will the majority
> 
> Lower fee for my current usage pattern:
> 
> Current - II - $89
> lockoff - $75
> 2 internal trades - $218
> Total = $382
> 
> System fee = $165
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  It is clearly stated in the disclosure document that Marriott or the owner can cancel the contract in every year at their discretion.




Skimming 7% = about $100

$1500 enrollment fee for resale owner has an oportunity cost of about 5% = $75 a year.

So overall you don't save that much...


----------



## SueDonJ

Dean said:


> Did you try Firefox?  I had no problem there but couldn't get through with Safari.





wsrobinson said:


> Sue,
> 
> I just tried Firefox on my Mac and that appears to be the problem.  Safari just won't allow the "enroll now" button.  Also, they updated my point values to 4200 for SurfWatch 2 BD Plat OS.  Good luck!



Well I broke down and installed Firefox, just didn't have any more patience left to wait for some other written confirmation.  My 25-yo son couldn't have rolled his eyes any further to the heavens when I asked him eighteen different ways if d/l-ing Firefox would affect Safari somehow.  "Just do it, Mom, your world won't end, I promise."  He was right.     It looks like the difference is that Safari couldn't load the security notice that popped up on Firefox before I could access the point value page.  (Hopefully this might help other Safari users, otherwise I've wasted about 6.3 zillion megabytes of TUG space on something that doesn't affect anybody else.)

The values that I got from the telephone rep today are correct.  That's good.  And I'm glad that you've seen a correction, ws, although for both our sakes I would have preferred that my SW values were incorrect and yours were not.  That's bad for you, and I'm sorry if asking the rep today to triple-check 3BR weeks against 2BR weeks was what caused the correction.  (I don't think so, though, she mentioned that they had other reports of SW "issues.")  Dean, are you also seeing a correction in what you thought might be incorrect?  {edited to add} Nevermind Dean, I see your new post #824.

So it's on to the next thing to obsess over before making a decision ...


----------



## wsrobinson

ann824 said:


> I am a little concerned about the fact that if you join you get a new interval number and become part of the corporate account.  I just wonder what kind of control they will end up with and will normal deposits be treated differently in the corporate account vs the old interval account we all have.   It could be that deposits made with the new numbers will end up in a pool for points owners and deposits made with the old interval accounts will not.  Will these deposits have the same value in Interval when exchanging.



I was just told by a VOA that if you are looking to exchange Marriott to Marriott it won't go to II.  The exchange will be handled (based on availability) in house by Marriott's new internal exchange system.


----------



## wsrobinson

Dean said:


> They have corrected my Surfwatch points as well down to the level I suspected would be the case.  Also, check your points calculations carefully if you are looking on the online enrollment options as while it calculates my total correctly which includes an EOY even week, it gives me an extra 500 for 2011 when the EOY is not counted.



Dean,

They revised mine downward as well.  It was nice being point rich for a day


----------



## wsrobinson

NJDave said:


> Is 33 to 1 a standard conversion rate to Marriott Reward Points?  If so, that could a benefit or a detriment of enrolling.
> 
> Our unit would get 110,000 today but only 87,450 using a 33:1 ratio.



Perhaps, but you can only exchange on a varying basis.  Regular program members may exchange up to 50 pct of their vacation points, premier members can do 65 pct and premierplus members can do 75 pct.


----------



## ondeadlin

wuv pooh said:


> One thing is clear.  The points system is going to be the future.  At least in the near term 1-5 years.  I am not willing to gamble that it will fail when the ante is so cheap compared to my investment.



When I read this my first thought was, "Are we still talking about timeshares?" I mean ... it seems so ominous ... "THE FUTURE!!!"

That said, if you bought developer and the money is chump change to you, I can understand your position. You view it as essentially hedging a bet for a relatively low cost. Makes sense. But you're selling this system so hard that it's hard not to wonder why. The hyperbole with "the future" etc. seems a bit much. If the worst thing that happens to someone is that they're shut out of the Marriott points system, I think most folks will be just fine, lol.

There are undoubtedly people this system will work for. There always are.

But for the average Marriott owner, it's going to devalue their week's resale value even further, potentially gut the II weeks system, and - should theyjoin the system - they're going to need to buy more points. Win, win, win Marriott, lose, lose, lose owners.

I can see how it works for you and a few others.

But I think any neutral evaluation has to conclude it also hurts the majority of owners in a variety of ways. It's not a simple question of "Pay this fee, because it's not that expensive, and what do you have to lose?" It's more like, "If you don't pay this fee, you may find that week you paid $40,000 for significantly devalued ... and, yes, you'll still get your annual use at your home resort, enjoy that, but all those other things we promised you in the sales pitch? Yeah, we're devaluing those big-time. Marriott resale program? Already gone. Marriott rental program? Gone too if you join points. II trades? Potentially gutted. But don't worry, trust us, if you give us more money, it'll all be just fine ...

Oh, except don't expect to be able to sell this benefit we're selling you. Only we get to do that.

And, of course, we can change the rules at any time.

I'm surprised you can't see the "gun to your head" element to all that and understand why it (at least) annoys people. I'm not so sure it's the future. I think there's a decent chance it flops and they're back in six months with much lower prices and much bigger incentives. They essentially harvest the folks who think the system and terms are great, and then offer a better deal to move the rest of the folks. Two words for you: Marco Island. The prima facie case of sales staff overpricing. How would you like to have been an original purchaser at that joint before they cut the prices? Oh boy.


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> Well I broke down and installed Firefox, just didn't have any more patience left to wait for some other written confirmation.  My 25-yo son couldn't have rolled his eyes any further to the heavens when I asked him eighteen different ways if d/l-ing Firefox would affect Safari somehow.  "Just do it, Mom, your world won't end, I promise."  He was right.     It looks like the difference is that Safari couldn't load the security notice that popped up on Firefox before I could access the point value page.  (Hopefully this might help other Safari users, otherwise I've wasted about 6.3 zillion megabytes of TUG space on something that doesn't affect anybody else.)
> 
> The values that I got from the telephone rep today are correct.  That's good.  And I'm glad that you've seen a correction, ws, although for both our sakes I would have preferred that my SW values were incorrect and yours were not.  That's bad for you, and I'm sorry if asking the rep today to triple-check 3BR weeks against 2BR weeks was what caused the correction.  (I don't think so, though, she mentioned that they had other reports of SW "issues.")  Dean, are you also seeing a correction in what you thought might be incorrect?
> 
> So it's on to the next thing to obsess over before making a decision ...


Iown a GV and OV 2 BR and the numbers are as I expected them to be. I don't have the numbers available right now but the GV was less than my GO OS and the O Vista was in between the OF and OS GO numbers.  I'm sure the GV, OS and OF numbers for those 3 resorts will be the same on both ends, not enough difference between them to justify making them different.  The O Vista is less than OF because it's further back.  You'll like using Firefox for the MVCI site as well since it doesn't have the issues with the security info there either and you won't have the problem where Safari doesn't load the tabed info like the owner related info.  IF you use RCI, you'll see that FF works better there as well, esp for the Directory.  FF also works better with the more advanced webmail products that I've seen.


----------



## siberiavol

wuv pooh said:


> Again, what is the light?  I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward.  You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open.  If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up?  What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand?  If you opted out will you be able to get back in?
> 
> Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.



I think there are plenty of people who don't see any value to them in the new program. They have reasoned their way to a decision. There are clearly some that are very mad at Marriott. I wonder if all of it is because of this program. A lot of people bought at very high prices and are sitting on big losses and feels like Marriott is getting them again. That probably makes it difficult not to make a statement in some form that 'Marriott is bad" even though they are not changing anything the best I can tell for those that don't join.

I don't think the new program is better for most people but that doesn't make Marriott into an Enron or their people into Bernie Madoffs. Virtually every company I know of in the travel business have given their clients less rather than more for years. Nobody I know is happy about it but it is the current reality


----------



## gmarine

When you join you give up your right to vote with your resorts HOA. Why would Marriott include this in the terms ? 

Before anyone considers joining, you should seriously consider why Marriott wants to restrict your RIGHT to vote with your HOA.


----------



## billymach4

*Marriott Degradation Club!*

Proclamation!

I have coined the term 

Marriott Degradation Club!    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Apple has the Ipad, We have the Degradation Club. Then there is WASTEGATE!

That's what happens when you smoke the Marriottjuana!


----------



## myip

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club.  Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts.  The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.


----------



## saturn28

myip said:


> If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club.  Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts.  The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.



There are a lot of weeks resorts and it will be a long time before points only resorts out number them. But all new resorts will be points only and you will not be able to do weeks exchanges through II to trade into them. The only way to trade into them will be through the points system.


----------



## ondeadlin

myip said:


> If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club.  Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts.  The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.



Absolutely. This is the inevitable outcome. It's just a matter of when the remaining II options for weeks Marriott owners are reduced to nothing but Branson, May and October weeks in Colorado and Utah and July and August in Phoenix and Florida.

The threat is obvious and real and intended to force you to convert.


----------



## NJDave

wsrobinson said:


> I was just told by a VOA that if you are looking to exchange Marriott to Marriott it won't go to II.  The exchange will be handled (based on availability) in house by Marriott's new internal exchange system.




This adds more uncertainty.  Any thoughts?  Will Marriott allow better trades internally or exclude trading up so the members have to use points after they can't get their trade?  How would the comparable trade criteria be applied?   Would it be the same as Interval's criteria?


----------



## winger

timeos2 said:


> You can roll an ever increasing amount from year to year and not bump into the one year restriction. Or simply plan to use lower value weeks/smaller units one year so you'll have 1000 or so "leftover" to roll to the next year. Then you have the 6000 needed. It works very well with a little planning.


The question then becomes whether each year's pt allotment are 'flagged' in such a way, any given year's allotment canNOT be extended for more than one year.  This requires essentially buckets for each year's pt allotment, and knowing the rules behind when a member reserves resort time (or any point use), which bucket the points are pulled from first.  

In the DRI point system, the document language originally made it seem that any given year's pts can only be extended I think for one (or two?) years, but upon using the system, the only limit seems to be that a member not be allowed to carry x times his annual pt allotment to the next year.  

I hope the new Marriott system works like DRI's


----------



## BocaBum99

myip said:


> If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club.  Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts.  The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.



It might take 100 years or more for that scenario to play out.

There are tons of resorts to exchange to in II for Marriotts.  What will be missed is the developer inventory that they have deposited for years.  Not sure what will happen to their excess inventory now in the new program since there is no discount window and no concept of bonus time.  This was a huge miss by the Marriott product managers.  Not as bad as points granted being less than points required to book.  That has to be one of the all time worst product decisions in all of timesharing.


----------



## m61376

Slakk said:


> Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program.  I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.
> 
> I did confirm St Kitts IS part of this point enrollment and holy smokes my EOY* 2 BR Gold OS is worth 4550*.  We bought it as a trader and I am thrilled with that amount of points in my use year.  I can even stay at Aruba Surf Club (our favorite) for a week and have 1000 points left over.  For that alone it was a no brainer.


Is that correct- since it appears that it only "costs" 3,325 points to book a 2BR Gold OS room there? Am I reading something wrong?


----------



## m61376

joyzilli said:


> Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program. I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.
> 
> 
> Just Curious:  My "every year" Aruba Surf Club Gold OV is also worth 3075 points.  Can this be a mistake that your EOY is worth the same as my EY and the only difference is the OS vs. OV?
> 
> According to the points chart - the OS and OV units are given the same value.  Something doesn't seem right.



I noticed that too, and was unable to get any sort of explanation as to how OS weeks, which cost several thousand more than OV weeks, and which rent for more money from Marriott, are valuated identically.


----------



## timeos2

*The same old "problems" - most really aren't*



ondeadlin said:


> But for the average Marriott owner, it's going to devalue their week's resale value even further, potentially gut the II weeks system, and - should theyjoin the system - they're going to need to buy more points. Win, win, win Marriott, lose, lose, lose owners.



The devaluation is going to happen regardless of the new system or not. Once the developer decides to trash rather than support resales the trend is irreversible.  Look at Wyndham or DRI among many others for proof of that. 

Need to buy more? Thats what was(is) often said about Wyndham yet in over 15 years of ownership we looked and decided what the amount we needed would be in 1995. Bought it cheap resale & figured we'd get more when needed. 2010 and after all that time pooling, banking, borrowing and renting points in our account we have NEVER bought more nor needed to. We have never paid a housekeeping fee I can recall. And we have stayed at every resort we requested in the unit size we wanted on the dates we needed - mostly the holidays/no school like everybody else.   The claims of doom gloom and ever increasing points needs just simply never materialized. But the fancy new resorts and locations did and we stayed at nearly all of them with our "cheap, old points - nonVIP! 




ondeadlin said:


> And, of course, we can change the rules at any time.



Same in all three of our systems. In nearly two decades I can count on one hand the changes and most had zero impact on us. So minor as to be meaningless. 

Overall we have found points based systems, if priced reasonably to join, a great value. And the new Marriott seems to mirror most of the others. It's worth looking closely at if you are a Marriott owner.  But do look closely.


----------



## timeos2

winger said:


> The question then becomes whether each year's pt allotment are 'flagged' in such a way, any given year's allotment canNOT be extended for more than one year.  This requires essentially buckets for each year's pt allotment, and knowing the rules behind when a member reserves resort time (or any point use), which bucket the points are pulled from first.
> 
> In the DRI point system, the document language originally made it seem that any given year's pts can only be extended I think for one (or two?) years, but upon using the system, the only limit seems to be that a member not be allowed to carry x times his annual pt allotment to the next year.
> 
> I hope the new Marriott system works like DRI's



I'll bet it does. And that means you could roll as much as 100% of your annual points over. That should  be enough for most people!


----------



## DanaTom

m61376 said:


> I noticed that too, and was unable to get any sort of explanation as to how OS weeks, which cost several thousand more than OV weeks, and which rent for more money from Marriott, are valuated identically.




I think it's been coined here previously, Tuggers will find the flaws and take advantage.   When someone finds flaws though... just email me, don't tell eveyone else.


----------



## DanaTom

myip said:


> If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club.  Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts.  The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.




I think you will note that Starwood's MFs are very high, and that has caused values to drop noticeably...  here at MVC though, they just reduced your normal week tstay o five or six days (as that's all the points you will have) instead of raising MFs.


----------



## m61376

timeos2 said:


> I have not, and don't plan to, go out & try to add up and average the values at the resorts to attempt to verify what Marriott did. There are enough (for me) cases previously posted here where an owner has done the math and is satisfied that at that one resort it is in balance - I've seen at least a dozen examples - so I'll have a bit of faith that in fact they did the math, double checked it and arrived at the proper figures. *If in fact they are attempting to skim (or whatever you care to all it) then the whole thing qualifies as a scam and deserves to crash and burn.* Whatever you think of Marriott that isn't something I'd expect from them. I do believe they are an ethical organization, looking to make money of course, but not by intentionally cheating people.
> 
> So I will place my trust in the fact that the base points, the assignment to the seasons and values are in fact the best possible and do represent what Marriott feels are the proper values.  The remainder of the system has to stand on it's own merits and things may not be as rosy there. I plan to summarize my overall opinion soon simply as my personal take on the final product revealed.



You certainly are free to have blind faith that Marriott has fairly assigned valuations- but there are multiple examples where people have indisputably illustrated that you are, in fact, mistaken. You cannot reasonably argue that "skimming" or whatever you want to call it is occurring when fixed week owners are assigned values less than their corresponding week costs to book, nor can you argue that points have been assigned equitably when an owner cannot book a single week in their owned season using the points allocated.

There may be some resorts where the allocations were more reasonable and equitable, but that does not negate the FACT that Marriott has created a program where in many cases they profit from each and every point deposit, since the person relinquishing the points would have to pay significantly more to purchase the identical item they are depositing.  

I do agree that I am surprised. I would have expected Marriott to act in a more ethical fashion. Like you, I expected more of them. Unlike you, I am willing to recognize that either they carelessly set point values, at least in some cases, or they are intentionally cheating people. Regrettably, I feel this skimming is actually a surcharge of 7-20%, masked as an "enhancement" to ownership.

The real money-maker for Marriott isn't the fee to join, nor the $169 or 199 club fee- it is the surcharge that anyone converting to points is forced to pay for the "wonderful enhancement" to their ownership!


----------



## DanCali

*The Cost of Converting*



DanCali said:


> Skimming 7% = about $100
> 
> $1500 enrollment fee for resale owner has an oportunity cost of about 5% = $75 a year.
> 
> So overall you don't save that much...



So after giving it some more thought, here is the true cost to converters. I will give an example of a resale multiple week owner (worst case) for a 10 year horizon:

1) $2000 investment with opportunity cost of 5% is $100 a year.

2) The $2000 is a sunk cost and will not be recovered upon a resale so amortized over 10 years that's $200 a year. (An exception to this cost is that if a points unit sells for more than a weeks unit onthe resale market, this cost may be lower since you essentially do recover some of the $2000. This we won't know for a few years though.)

3) The 7% skimming is about 1/2 of a vacation day. In rental terms, on a $1400 weekly rental it's about $100 a year per week. For a multiple week owner, let's say it's $200 a year is they own 2 units. 

4) Annual dues $200 a year.

These are all relevant costs that should be considered. They amount to $700 a year. Would that owner have paid $700 in II membership and exchange fees, and lockoff/split fees? Questionable...

For a multiple week retail owner (best case) this looks a bit beter, but the annual dues and skimmingcosts are still there. Opportunity cost and initiation fees sweeten the blow, but it's still over $500 in annual costs. So the so-called "savings" are not really there.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I'm more concerned with how this works than with who is wrong or right, and I think that the answer lies in the fact that the usage point charts we're reviewing are for exchange use and not for use at the home resort of the owned weeks.  But I don't know the first thing about discovering if that or something else is the explanation.
> 
> It would shock me to learn that any timeshare company is allowed to pluck any number of points out of thin air willy-nilly to sell, and does not have to correlate those numbers to the intervals available for use.  Presumably Marriott has filed all the necessary disclosures with all the proper licensing agencies - maybe our resident lawyers can find them.



I think the very fact that the points are for exchange use and not primarily for home resort use is what allows Marriott to legally skim points off the transactions; in reality, by charging more to reserve than they give for depositing, they are commandeering some of the value of each and every week being deposited into the points system. But, since people have the option of using weeks to reserve, they fulfill their legal obligations.

In reality, the points option is being marketed as merely an exchange option, and owners are paying for the privilege by giving up some of their week's value for the exchange (by virtue of the buy-sell gap).

The disappointing thing- or one of the disappointing things- is that it eliminates any increased flexibility in home resort use, since you need to convert to pints to use your home resort and, in many cases, booking the same weeks as usually traveled can approach 20% additional point cost.

Imagine how point devaluations will look in a few years if Marriott exercises their right to change valuations at up to 10% per annum.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> You save a bundle at $199 each year vs. current fees



This is just not true if you factor in all the costs. See my previous post.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> You misunderstand the system.  You can enroll, reserve your week, deposit it in II, and make a WEEKS trade at no additional charge for internal Marriott exchanges.  Just like today only cheaper if you make one trade.



Who told you this?

Because I talked to an II rep who told me weeks owners who trade with II trade weeks and points owners who trade through II will trade points. And if points owner trade points, I don't think you'll be able to deposit a week you reserved. Moreover, my guess is that the points will be what you are allotted, not what you reserved.

Did you see what you said in writing?


----------



## m61376

DanCali said:


> Who told you this?
> 
> Because I talked to an II rep who told me weeks owners who trade with II trade weeks and points owners who trade through II will trade points. And if points owner trade points, I don't think you'll be able to deposit a week you reserved. Moreover, my guess is that the points will be what you are allotted, not what you reserved.
> 
> Did you see what you said in writing?



I was actually told the same thing (that you would have the choice of converting to points or making a reservation at your home resort and depositing the week reserved either in whole or in part), and the agent verified it when I asked the same question several different ways. Of course, I'd like to see it in writing as well.


----------



## rsackett

DanCali said:


> Who told you this?
> 
> Because I talked to an II rep who told me weeks owners who trade with II trade weeks and points owners who trade through II will trade points. And if points owner trade points, I don't think you'll be able to deposit a week you reserved. Moreover, my guess is that the points will be what you are allotted, not what you reserved.
> 
> Did you see what you said in writing?



There is much confusion about this!  What I understood is, if you take points for your week you can trade into other Marriotts through Marriott at no additional charge (after skimming fee  ), OR you can resurve a week at your home resort and use it as you do now.  If you want to trade the week you resurve it can be deposited in II and you pay IIs exchange fee for the week you get, Marriott or not. 

Ray


----------



## DanCali

rsackett said:


> There is much confusion about this!  What I understood is, if you take points for your week you can trade into other Marriotts through Marriott at no additional charge (after skimming fee  ), OR you can resurve a week at your home resort and use it as you do now.  If you want to trade the week you resurve it can be deposited in II and you pay IIs exchange fee for the week you get, Marriott or not.
> 
> Ray





m61376 said:


> I was actually told the same thing (that you would have the choice of converting to points or making a reservation at your home resort and depositing the week reserved either in whole or in part), and the agent verified it when I asked the same question several different ways. Of course, I'd like to see it in writing as well.



You guys should talk to an II rep to reconcile this, because i spoke to two II reps yesterday and they told me otherwise. Of course, yesterday was the first day for points so they may be misinformed, but I definitely wouldn't trust Marriott on this unless I see it in writing.


----------



## VacationPro

Dave M said:


> Whether or not you join the points system, you will still have all of the use options that are available to you now. Thus, you can still choose to reserve two consecutive or concurrent weeks for a particular year at 13 months. Or, if you join points, you can elect points for that year and be subject to the points rules.



This is why I am having a hard time understanding all the angst regarding the program.  It seems to be me that everyone would get the exact same benefits as before (trading weeks for weeks through II) PLUS extra flexibility, for a cost that is lower than the cost of II and a single exchange.  If you don't want that flexibility (which comes at a point cost), don't use it--stay in weeks and use II the way you have always used it.

I would have liked for Marriott to avoid the discrepancy in the points given and required and to have a lower flexchange valuation for last minute travel, but overall the program seems reasonable.


----------



## BocaBum99

DanCali said:


> So after giving it some more thought, here is the true cost to converters. I will give an example of a resale multiple week owner (worst case) for a 10 year horizon:
> 
> 1) $2000 investment with opportunity cost of 5% is $100 a year.
> 
> 2) The $2000 is a sunk cost and will not be recovered upon a resale so amortized over 10 years that's $200 a year. (An exception to this cost is that if a points unit sells for more than a weeks unit onthe resale market, this cost may be lower since you essentially do recover some of the $2000. This we won't know for a few years though.)
> 
> 3) The 7% skimming is about 1/2 of a vacation day. In rental terms, on a $1400 weekly rental it's about $100 a year per week. For a multiple week owner, let's say it's $200 a year is they own 2 units.
> 
> 4) Annual dues $200 a year.
> 
> These are all relevant costs that should be considered. They amount to $700 a year. Would that owner have paid $700 in II membership and exchange fees, and lockoff/split fees? Questionable...
> 
> For a multiple week retail owner (best case) this looks a bit beter, but the annual dues and skimmingcosts are still there. Opportunity cost and initiation fees sweeten the blow, but it's still over $500 in annual costs. So the so-called "savings" are not really there.



Your financial analysis is directionally correct.  But you are inappropriately mixing depreciation and opportunity cost.

Instead, you should use a loan amortization model.  You can use a 10 year loan paid monthly or annually.  That is best way to compare monthly or annual costs of the upfront fee of $2000.

To convert that into a monthly amount, you use a 10 year loan @ 5% interest.  Your monthly payment on such a loan would be:  $21.21/month or $254.56/year.  That's a lot less than the $300 you come up with.

The reason this works is that instead of paying an upfront fee, you are financing it over the 10 year period.  At the end of the period the loan is fully amortized and your terminal value of the asset is zero.  You should probably use a rate higher than 5% because you can't get a consumer loan easily for that low of a rate.

To use opportunity cost, you have to have compare one CAGR (compound annual growth rate) and compare it to an alternative investment with a different CAGR.  If you normally invest into projects with 8% CAGR, then if you make an alternate investment at 3% CAGR, your opportunity cost is 5%.


----------



## cruisin

catharsis said:


> It does seem a little illogical of Marriott to behave this way - how do they expect to get (scarce fixed-week) inventory from owners such as yourself in order to offer them to other points members at the very high rates you mention?



Marriott doesnt need the scarce weeks, they can sell the promise of these scarce weeks, even if one week 52 at a resort is not in the pool, it "could be". If its available when at the time of booking, it can be yours. Big ifs.

Marriott does not need to build nice resorts anymore, they need create points, they have plenty of nice resorts to sell them from already. 

I can see it now, Come to Marriott's beautiful new resort just across the street from the beach. the beach by the way, will be that beautiful, but non swimmable stretch of waterfront. 


For the first time in Marriott's history, Thousands of the new points owners will not be able to book what they  want, there will be a massive resell market for these points, just like the other points based systems. Boca might  have just  found his next big enterprise.

The scariest thing in any timeshare system, is when a developer does not have to build a resort that they have to sell on its own merits. As a whole, from this day forward Marriott will only get worse, never better.


----------



## catharsis

VacationPro said:


> This is why I am having a hard time understanding all the angst regarding the program.  It seems to be me that everyone would get the exact same benefits as before (trading weeks for weeks through II) PLUS extra flexibility, for a cost that is lower than the cost of II and a single exchange.  If you don't want that flexibility (which comes at a point cost), don't use it--stay in weeks and use II the way you have always used it.
> 
> I would have liked for Marriott to avoid the discrepancy in the points given and required and to have a lower flexchange valuation for last minute travel, but overall the program seems reasonable.





rsackett said:


> There is much confusion about this!  What I understood is, if you take points for your week you can trade into other Marriotts through Marriott at no additional charge (after skimming fee  ), OR you can resurve a week at your home resort and use it as you do now.  If you want to trade the week you resurve it can be deposited in II and you pay IIs exchange fee for the week you get, Marriott or not.
> 
> Ray



My interpretation is that one can use the internal exchange scheme, 'free' if you are a member, to swap using POINTS.  Marriott to marriott swaps using points will be free and there will be no requirement to pay $109 or whatever as it is already paid for by your membership (and the bid/offer spread Marriott are skimming)

HOWEVER, your rights to deposit a week into II are unaffacted - BUT you must maintain a separate personal 'weeks' II membership to achieve this and any Marriott-Marriott exchanges will still require the internal exchange fee.

Anyone believeing that they will pay the club fees and then exchange *weeks *internally without paying exchange fees are misled, would be my guess.   Why would Marriott create a points system and at the same time subsidise those people who do not wish to use it?

A second question will arise as to whether the deposit of a 'trust' members week into II can even be done, or whether enrolling gives the right to marriott to get into 'SVN-style' tricks where they can deposit a week of their choice on your behalf instead (and rent out for points or cash your prime week).

Neither of these questions is yet answered to my satisfaction.


----------



## mickeypops

I'm glad I simply use my week at my home resort, have never exchanged and have no intention of ever doing so.

This system may seem straightforward enough to the seasoned and experienced amongst you.  Me?  I've got a headache just trying to understand what it's all about.

I bought my timeshare to enjoy some quality holidays at a place we love, not to have to become a forensic accountant.

(OK, I'll get my coat.........)


----------



## Asia2000

mickeypops said:


> I'm glad I simply use my week at my home resort, have never exchanged and have no intention of ever doing so.
> 
> This system may seem straightforward enough to the seasoned and experienced amongst you.  Me?  I've got a headache just trying to understand what it's all about.
> 
> I bought my timeshare to enjoy some quality holidays at a place we love, not to have to become a forensic accountant.
> 
> (OK, I'll get my coat.........)



Smart man.  Do not waste your time with all of the confusion this program offers.  It does not appear to be worth it in the slightest.


----------



## JimIg23

catharsis said:


> HOWEVER, your rights to deposit a week into II are unaffacted - *BUT you must maintain a separate personal 'weeks' II membership to achieve this *and any Marriott-Marriott exchanges will still require the internal exchange fee.
> 
> .



Has anyone verified this with II or MCV?


----------



## vacationlover2

Mickeypops,

That is the funniest thing ever.  Good for you.


----------



## timtax

*II Account*



JimIg23 said:


> Has anyone verified this with II or MCV?



I called II (Marriott Desk) and they transferrred me to Marriott Owner Services. They told me that I would keep my existing account (which is paid for thru 2014) and that I would receive an AC upon joining the new program and another AC in 2 years. Furthermore, since I have several weeks on deposit with exchange requests pending, I was told that I could cancel my pending requests, get the fees back and request the exchanges now with no fees. This would affect my place in line though. This would return 2 exchange fees to help pay for enrollment I guess.


----------



## SMB1

Numismatist said:


> If I join the points program with my deeded week, then I decide to sell my timeshare for good...would I be selling points then or selling my deeded week then?



It is my understanding that you still own your deed.  You should be able to sell it as you always have.  You can also opt out (un-enroll) your week from the points program, which puts you right back where you are right now....


----------



## SMB1

Numismatist said:


> I'm at Frenchman's Cove which is still in the process of being built.  I'm wondering if it will become more popular in the coming years as it is finished and more people know about it.  If so, it's value would go up; yet I have to accept the points I'm being given now while it is less popular/known.
> 
> Once I join, I'm locked in to the points they say it's worth _right now_ instead of potentially more at a later date?



Not necessarily.  Just like others have been upset about the fact that Marriott can change the values in the future; I imagine.. believe...hope this is so values can fluctuate with with demand.


----------



## JimIg23

timtax said:


> I called II (Marriott Desk) and they transferrred me to Marriott Owner Services. They told me that I would keep my existing account (which is paid for thru 2014) and that I would receive an AC upon joining the new program and another AC in 2 years. Furthermore, since I have several weeks on deposit with exchange requests pending, I was told that I could cancel my pending requests, get the fees back and request the exchanges now with no fees. This would affect my place in line though. This would return 2 exchange fees to help pay for enrollment I guess.



Interesting.  I am in the same exact boat.  member to the end of 2013 and two pending requests. 

However, my pending requests are for HI next year (All Marriotts, except for a Weston).  I would be very iffy about canceling them now and lose my place in line


----------



## timtax

*Pending Requests*



JimIg23 said:


> Interesting.  I am in the same exact boat.  member to the end of 2013 and two pending requests.
> 
> However, my pending requests are for HI next year (All Marriotts, except for a Weston).  I would be very iffy about canceling them now and lose my place in line



I agree that the savings may not be worth the risk of not getting your exchange but it does appear that there will be only one II account which will maintain the ability (although possibly reduced) for week to week exchanges both with Marriott and externally.

When I factor in the reduced lockoff exchange fees, waiving the 2011 club fee and the 800 Bonus Points offered by Marriott, the $695 enrollment fee doesn't seem too bad. I will probably join but still use my weeks as I always have (trade through II or occupy).


----------



## ArtsieAng

VacationPro said:


> This is why I am having a hard time understanding all the angst regarding the program.  It seems to be me that everyone would get the exact same benefits as before (trading weeks for weeks through II) PLUS extra flexibility, for a cost that is lower than the cost of II and a single exchange.  If you don't want that flexibility (which comes at a point cost), don't use it--stay in weeks and use II the way you have always used it.
> 
> I would have liked for Marriott to avoid the discrepancy in the points given and required and to have a lower flexchange valuation for last minute travel, but overall the program seems reasonable.





It's not that simple! The problem is that II will never again be what it once was. It is undeniable that this new system will forever change your chances of exchanging through II the way you had in the past. Your chances of getting a Marriott exchange will be greatly diminished.

As far as the "flexibility" in the new program goes, it is coming at a substantial price to current owners. The value of your ownership has been significantly devalued in the point system. Therefore, you are short the number of points you would need to exchange through Marriott into a comprable week without either buying more points, or taking them from another week/year usage. 

I discussed the point shortage yesterday with Marriott. when I told them that I did not have enough points to exchange into my home resort, their answer to me was to buy more points........They suggested that I pay $9,200 to use the week that I have already purchased from them at a premium price, not resale. 

The only thing that the "flexibility" in the new program is allowing, is for you to trade down.

Edited to add: Reserving your home week will also become much more challenging. There is no home resort priority. So, the system will never be what it once was. It is not a situation where if you do like the new system, you can simply use the old system......The "old system" is gone!


----------



## SMB1

AceValenta said:


> I think the reason for the difference in points from what you receive and what Marriott receives to prevent an over glut of bookings for your week. If it requires more points for the Prime Weeks, then people will be less likely to fight for them. Thus, leaving the prime week members that reserved them through their week's program, not the Destinations Points.



According to John this is a benefit of a points program.  I guess if you are buying points staring today you are already buying the # of points you need to go where you want and are not buying the average of the "old seasons".  This is why is is hard for us to wrap our hands around this concept.  Unless we want to buy the  extra few hundred points need to get what you want in the season size unit you already own we might be better off sticking with what we have.  I'm undecided.  I might join for the flexibility, take advantage of the lower fee, and play the trade down in size or season game occasionally if that fits my needs for a certain year.  

Just curious...If Marriott had made it so that weeks owners who enroll had to book their week first then give it up for a # of points based on the week reserverd (so now you are not getting the average points for the season) and some are getting more points than others for their same resort/season (even though they paid the same for their unit and pay the same maintenance fee), ala redweek, would we have more people happy about the new program or still have people complaining that they are getting ripped off.  In this senario we would still have everyone competing to reserve the best weeks just to trade or convert to points, which is brings us back to what his post started with.


----------



## wsrobinson

DanCali said:


> So after giving it some more thought, here is the true cost to converters. I will give an example of a resale multiple week owner (worst case) for a 10 year horizon:
> 
> 1) $2000 investment with opportunity cost of 5% is $100 a year.
> 
> 2) The $2000 is a sunk cost and will not be recovered upon a resale so amortized over 10 years that's $200 a year. (An exception to this cost is that if a points unit sells for more than a weeks unit onthe resale market, this cost may be lower since you essentially do recover some of the $2000. This we won't know for a few years though.)
> 
> 3) The 7% skimming is about 1/2 of a vacation day. In rental terms, on a $1400 weekly rental it's about $100 a year per week. For a multiple week owner, let's say it's $200 a year is they own 2 units.
> 
> 4) Annual dues $200 a year.
> 
> These are all relevant costs that should be considered. They amount to $700 a year. Would that owner have paid $700 in II membership and exchange fees, and lockoff/split fees? Questionable...
> 
> For a multiple week retail owner (best case) this looks a bit beter, but the annual dues and skimmingcosts are still there. Opportunity cost and initiation fees sweeten the blow, but it's still over $500 in annual costs. So the so-called "savings" are not really there.



Don't the 800 points they give you initially have some value?  As such, it throws your equation off.  I can make a decent case they're worth an easy 1K based on what I've seen.  I plan on using mine to book a 4-5 night stay off-season at Manor Club.  At $250/night,  that's $1000 or $1250 depending on nights.  I actually have points left over as it's 100 pts/night.


----------



## wsrobinson

m61376 said:


> Is that correct- since it appears that it only "costs" 3,325 points to book a 2BR Gold OS room there? Am I reading something wrong?



Ultimately, I think the 4550 will be split in half.  There have been some point irregularities noted here.  Marriott has worked through some.  My guess is that they will adjust these downward accordingly.


----------



## hipslo

ArtsieAng said:


> I discussed the point shortage yesterday with Marriott. when I told them that I did not have enough points to exchange into my home resort, their answer to me was to buy more points........They suggested that I pay $9,200 to use the week that I have already purchased from them at a premium price, not resale.



Were they actually able to say this with a staright face?  

Again, its no wonder that fletch left.


----------



## ArtsieAng

hipslo said:


> *Were they actually able to say this with a staright face?  *
> Again, its no wonder that fletch left.



Oh yea. I spoke with a rep, and a "point specialist," yesterday, and they both suggested that I buy more points.

Very nice........I buy 2 weeks directly from Marriott, and now can not exchange back in to either of them unless I pay an additional $9,200, and $400 more in maintenance fees.  

BTW, they weren't even willing to allow me to purchase just the number of points that I would need to exchange back into my resorts. Nope, minimum of 1000 points.


----------



## Cobra1950

Wow what a confused mess created by Marriott!  As a Marriott purchased multiweek owner whose email address they know well, I would think I would have gotten the courtesy of getting an explanation in clear and simple, non-used car dealer format, on the program change. 
    A simpler format would have been for Marriott to use the new set of rules going forward in new developments rather than discredit their timeshare franchise as they have with poor or nonexistant communications.
    Anyway, "where there is smoke there is fire" so anyone in his/her right mind have to regard this topic with suspicion and do at the very least nothing until the dust settles.  At this point I would certainly make no changes and pay Marriott no fees on a program/new points they can manipulate even more than the old one, it appears to be a sucker bet:rofl:


----------



## tombo

SMB1 said:


> Just curious...If Marriott had made it so that weeks owners who enroll had to book their week first then give it up for a # of points based on the week reserverd (so now you are not getting the average points for the season) and some are getting more points than others for their same resort/season (even though they paid the same for their unit and pay the same maintenance fee), ala redweek, would we have more people happy about the new program or still have people complaining that they are getting ripped off.  In this senario we would still have everyone competing to reserve the best weeks just to trade or convert to points, which is brings us back to what his post started with.



If Marriott wanted to assign points fairly ALL platinum weeks of the same unit type at the same resort would have been assigned the same number of points (ex 5000 for garden view 2 bed). All owners of garden view 2 bed platinum weeks would receive 5000 points annully (exactly what Marriott charges to stay in the unit you deposit) and reservations for ALL platinum 2 bed garden view weeks at that resort would cost 5000 points to exchange for. It will be first come first served just like it has always been and will always be. Whether they charge 6000 points for 4th of July or 5000 points, the weeks will go to the first few points members to be on the phone the first minute of the first morning regardless of what marriott charges for the prime weeks. To say that by charging higher points for prime weeks that they are helping owners in some way is a lie promoted to skim profits and sell more points to owners who can't even afford to reserve a week in their season.

Since all platinum week owners now have access to all platinum weeks (not just shoulder weeks) based on availability, that ability to reserve ANY platinum week should not be taken away by "flexibility" of the points program! Marriott now has assigned points to certain Platinum weeks that NO platinum owner ever gets enough points to exchange for, and in some cases NO platinum owners are even assigned enough points to reserve a week in their platinum season at their home resort. 

Marriott designed the program where owners get less points for their deposit than it takes to exchange for it to force owners to buy more points and to make profit by skimming points off the top. Whether the currency is points or cash, if you pay the person you get your inventory from less (points or cash) than you charge the person who rents the identical inventory from you for, you have made a profit. When owners have paid $20,000 or more for a week suddenly realze that they will not able to get anything but downtrades using their annual points assignment (not enough points to get like for like or uptrades), many will panic and gladly pay $9000 or more to not lose the trading power they are accustomed to using their high dollar investment.

Call Marriott, express your concern that you don't get enough points to trade each year for like units that are assigned the exact same point value as what you deposit and wait for the concern in their voice (I am still waiting and I got off the phone yesterday). You will be informed that yes under the new program you need to spend about $9000 to be able to have enough points to reserve units with identical point values to what you currently own. They will inform you that if you don't buy more points you can still use your home resort. Doesn't that just leave you with that warm fuzzy feeling for Marriott?

What a deal. No more uptrades ever, no more like for like trades unless you pay to buy more points, you are only guaranteed downtrades with your points. So what you had is gone and from now on unless you are willing to pay the extortion you will get your home resort (fighting against everyone including points members for the best in season weeks) or down trades. 

I guess the flexibility Marriott touts is that you have to be more flexible on where and when you are willing to vacation because you will no longer have access to all the weeks and resorts you are used to getting with your week.


----------



## gmarine

wsrobinson said:


> Don't the 800 points they give you initially have some value?  As such, it throws your equation off.  I can make a decent case they're worth an easy 1K based on what I've seen.  I plan on using mine to book a 4-5 night stay off-season at Manor Club.  At $250/night,  that's $1000 or $1250 depending on nights.  I actually have points left over as it's 100 pts/night.



You could rent an off season week at Manor Club for far less than $250 per night. II generally has Getaways to MMC for around $500 per week for a two bedroom during the off season.


----------



## 1965

i am able to often get (1) two bedroom for Marriott Manor club/williamsburg,VA for 7 nights thru interval for $109 in october, which is very very slow season.
$109 total for 7 nights (1) two bedroom.
They will give me a double trade, just pay $109 Marriott exchange fee again.


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## JimC

I still have not received any official notification from MVCI about the change.  Has anyone?


----------



## wsrobinson

gmarine said:


> You could rent an off season week at Manor Club for far less than $250 per night. II generally has Getaways to MMC for around $500 per week for a two bedroom during the off season.



Unfortunately, I'm talking about Thanksgiving week so you cannot get availability through II.


----------



## wsrobinson

1965 said:


> i am able to often get (1) two bedroom for Marriott Manor club/williamsburg,VA for 7 nights thru interval for $109 in october, which is very very slow season.
> $109 total for 7 nights (1) two bedroom.
> They will give me a double trade, just pay $109 Marriott exchange fee again.



You gave up a week and paid $109.  It didn't cost you $109 to go to Manor Club in Oct.  Getaways for 2 bedrroms start in the $550 range.


----------



## wsrobinson

JimC said:


> I still have not received any official notification from MVCI about the change.  Has anyone?



My point allocations were a mistake (at 5750) and they revised them downward to 4200 (as Dean and Sue suggested they would).


----------



## timeos2

*Go direct and save.*



1965 said:


> i am able to often get (1) two bedroom for Marriott Manor club/williamsburg,VA for 7 nights thru interval for $109 in october, which is very very slow season.
> $109 total for 7 nights (1) two bedroom.
> They will give me a double trade, just pay $109 Marriott exchange fee again.



The change that will occur at II hasn't registered with most yet.  The vast majority of what II had to offer has been fed to them from Marriott from unsold developer inventory NOT individual deposits from owners. That flow has ended and redirected to the Marriott Points system as the backbone of inventory there (which should offer some idea of how significant the numbers are - Fletch has said it is >25% of all time in the system).  Losing that source will cripple availability overall of Marriott weeks at II. The individual deposits have always been limited and would tend to be the more desirable times. But they also have the bigger demand. They always got snapped up - that won't change but the number of requests for them will also be on the rise. Add in the apparent ability of Marriott Points to dip into the II pool as a priority owner and again the weeks actually available to members at II goes down. 

Look for getaways to dry up as every available week will suddenly become "hot" in II as the supply drops off sharply while demand spikes. In the next few months the new pattern of very limited availability of Marriott weeks at II should become the norm and it isn't ever going to go back to the level of pre-June 2010.   Direct trades between Marriott owners would appear to be the best way to go for "traditional" Marriott owners going forward. More cost effective too.


----------



## banquopack

*Can you really use the 800 points?*



wsrobinson said:


> Don't the 800 points they give you initially have some value?  As such, it throws your equation off.  I can make a decent case they're worth an easy 1K based on what I've seen.  I plan on using mine to book a 4-5 night stay off-season at Manor Club.  At $250/night,  that's $1000 or $1250 depending on nights.  I actually have points left over as it's 100 pts/night.



From their enrollment documents, it looks like we may not be able to use the 800 points if we don't also give them our 2011 year for points.  Andif you can use them, they may cost you?

"An Exchange Member who does not make a Deposit in a given calendar year is not entitled to utilize Single Use Points in such calendar year. The ability to utilize Single Use Points for reservations may not be available for all Accommodations. If Single Use Points are used to make a reservation, additional fees may be required to complete the reservation. The rights reserved to Exchange Company in this paragraph may be assigned by Exchange Company."


----------



## wsrobinson

banquopack said:


> From their enrollment documents, it looks like we may not be able to use the 800 points if we don't also give them our 2011 year for points.  Andif you can use them, they may cost you?
> 
> "An Exchange Member who does not make a Deposit in a given calendar year is not entitled to utilize Single Use Points in such calendar year. The ability to utilize Single Use Points for reservations may not be available for all Accommodations. If Single Use Points are used to make a reservation, additional fees may be required to complete the reservation. The rights reserved to Exchange Company in this paragraph may be assigned by Exchange Company."



One has nothing to do with the other.  Sign up and the 800 points are your immediately to do with as you please.  The stmt you pasted has to do with recieving an allotment of points for a given year.


----------



## thinze3

floyddl said:


> I own fixed week at a resort with only one fixed week.  Yet I am offered 5250 for a week that it takes 5400 to reserve.  While I understand your point on spreading the total over a season there is really no good reason to devalue a week that is a season to itself.



Marriott is charging for the added perks and flexibility you have gained.

no Interval International membership fee
no exchange fees
no lock off fees
no change of reservation fees
no conversion to rewards pts fees
no fees to use club pts by the day
no fees to check in any day of the week
no fees to extend your usage til next year
no fees to borrow from next year

Imagine Newport coast for three days, and then KoOlina for four days, and then Kauai Beach Club for three days, or better yet, KoOlina for five days and Kauai Beach Club for five days - no fee!


----------



## thinze3

wsrobinson said:


> My point allocations were a mistake (at 5750) and they revised them downward to 4200 (as Dean and Sue suggested they would).



This makes much more sense to me now. I thought you had something of a hidden gem that others had no clue of.


----------



## banquopack

wsrobinson said:


> One has nothing to do with the other.  Sign up and the 800 points are your immediately to do with as you please.  The stmt you pasted has to do with recieving an allotment of points for a given year.



Are you sure?  I think the 800 points fall under their heading of promotional "single use points".  I didn't see where they said they were for use even if you didn't deposit at least one week.


----------



## wsrobinson

banquopack said:


> Are you sure?  I think the 800 points fall under their heading of promotional "single use points".  I didn't see where they said they were for use even if you didn't deposit at least one week.



Well, as with all things.  Take it with a grain of salt.  I asked the VOA last night this exact question about using the points.  She said they would be in my account almost immediately and availble for use whenever I wanted.


----------



## ArtsieAng

thinze3 said:


> Marriott is charging for the added perks and flexibility you have gained.
> 
> no Interval International membership fee
> no exchange fees
> no lock off fees
> no change of reservation fees
> no conversion to rewards pts fees
> no fees to use club pts by the day
> no fees to check in any day of the week
> no fees to extend your usage til next year
> no fees to borrow from next year
> 
> Imagine Newport coast for three days, and then KoOlina for four days, and then Kauai Beach Club for three days, or better yet, KoOlina for five days and Kauai Beach Club for five days - no fee!




Marriott is charging an entry fee, as well as a yearly fee for the above services, no?

Also, if that were the case, shouldn't we all be paying the same amount, in cash, not an unknown amount of points per week?


----------



## hipslo

*I am amazed - pricing structure actually FAVORS exisiting resale owners*

I have been thinking a lot about the new system, and, while I dont like it and would prefer that things simply remain as they are, it seems to me that, if all goes as planned by Marriott (a big "if"), over time, the new system could potentially become "the" system.  That remains to be seen, but it is at least a possibility.

I currently own 5 weeks, all purchased resale.  The amount of money that I saved by buying resale, rather than directly from Marriott, is roughly $80,000.

*So, how do I fare, compared to the loyal direct purchaser of those very same weeks, who has shelled out $80,000 more than I have?  Why, it costs me a whopping $1,300 more to enroll my ownership in the new program than it costs the direct purchaser of the very same weeks.  Once I enroll, the direct purchaser and I appear to stand on the exact same footing, in all respects, going forward.*

Now, as I said, I dont like the new program.  But Marriott is telling me that I have the right to buy in and "cleanse" my existing resale status for only $1,300 more than it costs a direct buyer of the very same weeks to enroll.  It seems to me that it would be rather imprudent not to take them up on this offer.  Even if I never intend to use points after enrolling.  After all, if things change, going forward, I suppose it is possible that even the currently grandfathered resale owners might no longer have the ability to enroll.  For $1,300, why wouldnt I want to arrange to have myself treated in the same manner as someone who spent $80,000 more than I did for the exact same bundle of rights?  

*The flip side of this, of course, is the breathtaking disregard that marriott is showing their loyal multiple platinum high cost direct purchasers, when compared to what they are charging resale purchasers of the same weeks to enroll.*


----------



## wsrobinson

hipslo said:


> I have been thinking a lot about the new system, and, while I dont like it and would prefer that things simply remain as they are, it seems to me that, if all goes as planned by Marriott (a big "if"), over time, the new system could potentially become "the" system.  That remains to be seen, but it is at least a possibility.
> 
> I currently own 5 weeks, all purchased resale.  The amount of money that I saved by buying resale, rather than directly from Marriott, is roughly $80,000.
> 
> *So, how do I fare, compared to the loyal direct purchaser of those very same weeks, who has shelled out $80,000 more than I have?  Why, it costs me a whopping $1,300 more to enroll my ownership in the new program than it costs the direct purchaser of the very same weeks.  Once I enroll, the direct purchaser and I appear to stand on the exact same footing, in all respects, going forward.*
> 
> Now, as I said, I dont like the new program.  But Marriott is telling me that I have the right to buy in and "cleanse" my existing resale status for only $1,300 more than it costs a direct buyer of the very same weeks to enroll.  It seems to me that it would be rather imprudent not to take them up on this offer.  Even if I never intend to use points after enrolling.  After all, if things change, going forward, I suppose it is possible that even the currently grandfathered resale owners might no longer have the ability to enroll.  For $1,300, why wouldnt I want to arrange to have myself treated in the same manner as someone who spent $80,000 more than I did for the exact same bundle of rights?
> 
> The flip side of this, of course, is the breathtaking disregard that marriott is showing their loyal multiple platinum high cost direct purchasers, when compared to what they are charging resale purchasers of the same weeks to enroll.



An excellent point and one not lost on ME!


----------



## thinze3

ArtsieAng said:


> Marriott is charging an entry fee, as well as a yearly fee for the above services, no?
> 
> Also, if that were the case, shouldn't we all be paying the same amount, in cash, not an unknown amount of points per week?



Entry fee - yes, but worth it.
I get to convert a BeachPlace Towers platinum unit which cost me about $6500 resale that would have cost over $30K from the developer, essentially back into a developer unit. This unit will now offer me 110K MR points if I choose. I personally think this system is a steal for resale owners.

Membership fees - yes, but worth it.
Scratch the II fees off my list and everything else is what you pay for in the diminished club points.

Same amount "yearly" in cash - no.
Why should someone who owns and uses 6 timeshares, and all the new perks that go with it, pay the same as someone who only owns and uses two timeshares. If Marriott had added a $150 per unit fee vs a 3-5% deduction in club points, there would have been blood in the streets. IMO


----------



## timeos2

*It hasn't happened yet but someday someone will say "I should have paid more" Right.*



hipslo said:


> I have been thinking a lot about the new system, and, while I dont like it and would prefer that things simply remain as they are, it seems to me that, if all goes as planned by Marriott (a big "if"), over time, the new system could potentially become "the" system.  That remains to be seen, but it is at least a possibility.
> 
> I currently own 5 weeks, all purchased resale.  The amount of money that I saved by buying resale, rather than directly from Marriott, is roughly $80,000.
> 
> *So, how do I fare, compared to the loyal direct purchaser of those very same weeks, who has shelled out $80,000 more than I have?  Why, it costs me a whopping $1,300 more to enroll my ownership in the new program than it costs the direct purchaser of the very same weeks.  Once I enroll, the direct purchaser and I appear to stand on the exact same footing, in all respects, going forward.*
> 
> Now, as I said, I dont like the new program.  But Marriott is telling me that I have the right to buy in and "cleanse" my existing resale status for only $1,300 more than it costs a direct buyer of the very same weeks to enroll.  It seems to me that it would be rather imprudent not to take them up on this offer.  Even if I never intend to use points after enrolling.  After all, if things change, going forward, I suppose it is possible that even the currently grandfathered resale owners might no longer have the ability to enroll.  For $1,300, why wouldnt I want to arrange to have myself treated in the same manner as someone who spent $80,000 more than I did for the exact same bundle of rights?
> 
> The flip side of this, of course, is the breathtaking disregard that marriott is showing their loyal multiple platinum high cost direct purchasers, when compared to what they are charging resale purchasers of the same weeks to enroll.



Pretty good analysis of the situation. As usual it is tough to find any way that paying retail for any system/resort turns out to favor the buyer.  On the other hand it is extremely rare that a resale purchaser later has the V8 moment & slaps their head shouting "What was I thinking? I should have paid RETAIL!"  :rofl:


----------



## tombo

thinze3 said:


> Marriott is charging for the added perks and flexibility you have gained.
> 
> no Interval International membership fee
> no exchange fees
> no lock off fees
> no change of reservation fees
> no conversion to rewards pts fees
> no fees to use club pts by the day
> no fees to check in any day of the week
> no fees to extend your usage til next year
> no fees to borrow from next year
> 
> Imagine Newport coast for three days, and then KoOlina for four days, and then Kauai Beach Club for three days, or better yet, KoOlina for five days and Kauai Beach Club for five days - no fee!



They have built in their fees. Everytime you deposit a week into points they skim points off the top which is a fee (or profit whichever you prefer). When you exchange for a lockoff, the sum of the two lockoffs is a much higher point total than the points required to rent the whole 2 bed room week, so they are charging more points for that, so yes there is a lockoff fee. If you use points for daily stays, the sum of the daily points are much higher than the points required for a weeks stay, so they are charging fees for daily stays too. By not specifically charging x$ per lock off or daily stay it can be sold as free to members, but if you compare what your points outlay is for lock-offs and nightly stays versus a week in the same unit, you are paying a hefty fee in additonal points charged by Marriott to get "flexibility".

Marriott is charging you to convert,they will probably start raising annual MF's, they are charging you an annual membership fee, and they skim points every time you deposit and exchange. Marriott is not doing any of the wonderful flexibility options they tout for free, they are charging you each and every time you want to be flexible and use your points to exchange! 

Imagining Newport for 3 prime season days, followed by 3 days at this hawaai resort followed by 4 days at another will IMO be just that, imagining. Every person they sell the points to will be assured that getting those things will be easy, but most if not all prime inventory will be reserved for a whole week before those wanting shorter stays ever get a chance at less than 7 day inventory. In the beginning there will probably be access to less than 7 day stays at prime resorts during prime seasons, but after they sell and convert a ton of people to points the competition will be so intense that getting any prime days/weeks will be hard. In fact I bet that it will be much harder to get prime weeks/locations than before points because Marriott will be able to sell those shoulder weeks as points allowing more people to compete for the prime limited inventory, because points is points no matter where they come from.


----------



## thinze3

Exactly. This was the purpose of the posts. Marriott MUST charge points since they are not charging dollars.


----------



## ArtsieAng

thinze3 said:


> Entry fee - yes, but worth it.
> I get to convert a BeachPlace Towers platinum unit which cost me about $6500 resale that would have cost over $30K from the developer, essentially back into a developer unit. This unit will now offer me 110K MR points if I choose. I personally think this system is a steal for resale owners.
> 
> Membership fees - yes, but worth it.
> Scratch the II fees off my list and everything else is what you pay for in the diminished club points.
> 
> Same amount "yearly" in cash - no.
> *Why should someone who owns and uses 6 timeshares, and all the new perks that go with it, pay the same as someone who only owns and uses two timeshares. If Marriott had added a $150 per unit fee vs a 3-5% deduction in club points, there would have been blood in the streets. *IMO





> no Interval International membership fee
> no exchange fees
> no lock off fees
> no change of reservation fees
> no conversion to rewards pts fees
> no fees to use club pts by the day
> no fees to check in any day of the week
> no fees to extend your usage til next year
> no fees to borrow from next year





They shouldn't.....Just as I pay in the old system to exchange my week, or lock-off my week, or exchange my week for points, on a per week basis, Marriott should charge on a per week basis for any of the above services not covered by the yearly fee.

Based on your analogy, why should I pay in points reduction to my week for all the above usage possibilities, if I'm only going to exchange my week into another week for a 7 day interval ?


----------



## m61376

SMB1 said:


> According to John this is a benefit of a points program.  I guess if you are buying points staring today you are already buying the # of points you need to go where you want and are not buying the average of the "old seasons".  This is why is is hard for us to wrap our hands around this concept.  Unless we want to buy the  extra few hundred points need to get what you want in the season size unit you already own we might be better off sticking with what we have.  I'm undecided.  I might join for the flexibility, take advantage of the lower fee, and play the trade down in size or season game occasionally if that fits my needs for a certain year.
> 
> Just curious...If Marriott had made it so that weeks owners who enroll had to book their week first then give it up for a # of points based on the week reserverd (so now you are not getting the average points for the season) and some are getting more points than others for their same resort/season (even though they paid the same for their unit and pay the same maintenance fee), ala redweek, would we have more people happy about the new program or still have people complaining that they are getting ripped off.  In this senario we would still have everyone competing to reserve the best weeks just to trade or convert to points, which is brings us back to what his post started with.


Except that, while I generally respect his opinions, John's logic is flawed here. He has mistakenly assumed that Marriott fairly allotted the average value for each season to owners. There may be some cases where this is so, but there are MANY instances where Marirott allotted less points than required to book ANY week in the owned season. There is no way to argue that that us equitable.


----------



## banquopack

*Banking points, wait lists, and renting*

Has anybody talked to a person about banking/borrowing?  That's one of the few values I see with the new system for me.  But this was troubling:

"Borrowed Exchange Points may be used for a wait list reservation as set forth in these Exchange Procedures."

So you only get a wait list reservation?  And what the heck is that?!

(24)
creating special Guest of Member programs (which may include fees) where a Member’s Guest(s) may only occupy certain Accommodations or Use Periods while the Member is not in residence;

That may make it hard to rent.

(32)
limiting the characteristics of, and creating restrictions on, the use of transferred Exchange Points within various reservation windows;

And you can transfer points in any amount and to whomever, but will they be able to use them?


----------



## m61376

ArtsieAng said:


> Oh yea. I spoke with a rep, and a "point specialist," yesterday, and they both suggested that I buy more points.
> 
> Very nice........I buy 2 weeks directly from Marriott, and now can not exchange back in to either of them unless I pay an additional $9,200, and $400 more in maintenance fees.
> 
> BTW, they weren't even willing to allow me to purchase just the number of points that I would need to exchange back into my resorts. Nope, minimum of 1000 points.



They tried to convince me how much better off I'd be in the new program despite not being able to book a single week in the Platinum season. They also tried to convince me that an OS and an OV room must have been the same value, then, even though OS cost several thousand more initially AND Marriott itself charges more for an OS versus an OV week. At the end of the discussion she finally admitted that she had no idea why OS and OV were assigned the same value and would pass along my complaint.


----------



## thinze3

ArtsieAng said:


> They shouldn't.....Just as I pay in the old system to exchange my week, or lock-off my week, or exchange my week for points, on a per week basis, Marriott should charge on a per week basis for any of the above services not covered by the yearly fee.
> 
> Based on your analogy, why should I pay in points reduction to my week for all the above usage possibilities, if I'm only going to exchange my week into another week for a 7 day interval ?



Trust me, I understand. I believe Marriott simply decided that an all inclusive program would be an easier sell.

Also, it could be a simple way to get *US* to buy more points as well.


----------



## DanCali

BocaBum99 said:


> Your financial analysis is directionally correct.  But you are inappropriately mixing depreciation and opportunity cost.
> 
> Instead, you should use a loan amortization model.  You can use a 10 year loan paid monthly or annually.  That is best way to compare monthly or annual costs of the upfront fee of $2000.
> 
> To convert that into a monthly amount, you use a 10 year loan @ 5% interest.  Your monthly payment on such a loan would be:  $21.21/month or $254.56/year.  That's a lot less than the $300 you come up with.
> 
> The reason this works is that instead of paying an upfront fee, you are financing it over the 10 year period.  At the end of the period the loan is fully amortized and your terminal value of the asset is zero.  You should probably use a rate higher than 5% because you can't get a consumer loan easily for that low of a rate.
> 
> To use opportunity cost, you have to have compare one CAGR (compound annual growth rate) and compare it to an alternative investment with a different CAGR.  If you normally invest into projects with 8% CAGR, then if you make an alternate investment at 3% CAGR, your opportunity cost is 5%.



You are corect about the time value of money, but the difference between 254 and 300 is not that big... and it keeps things a lot simpler. Actually, with annual payments at a 5% rate you get $259 (pmt(5%,10, 2000))

The 5% opportunity cost assumes no loan. It assumes that I'm taking the money from elsewhere where I'd be getting 5% a year (say 70% bonds, 30% stocks). In most economic times, you can get 5% just from a 5 year CD... If I used a higher rate, like you suggest, I will get closer to my $300 approximation anyway. To this, you need to add the $200 annual fee and $200 skimming (for 2 unis).

So the analysis more than "directionally correct"... it's a pretty good approximation too


----------



## wsrobinson

banquopack said:


> Has anybody talked to a person about banking/borrowing?  That's one of the few values I see with the new system for me.  But this was troubling:
> 
> "Borrowed Exchange Points may be used for a wait list reservation as set forth in these Exchange Procedures."
> 
> So you only get a wait list reservation?  And what the heck is that?!
> 
> (24)
> creating special Guest of Member programs (which may include fees) where a Member’s Guest(s) may only occupy certain Accommodations or Use Periods while the Member is not in residence;
> 
> That may make it hard to rent.
> 
> (32)
> limiting the characteristics of, and creating restrictions on, the use of transferred Exchange Points within various reservation windows;
> 
> And you can transfer points in any amount and to whomever, but will they be able to use them?




The wait lists occur if there is no availability for your specified destination (or not enough platinum weeks join).


----------



## timeos2

*The mighty fall. Not too big to fail*



m61376 said:


> Except that, while I generally respect his opinions, John's logic is flawed here. He has mistakenly assumed that Marriott fairly allotted the average value for each season to owners. There may be some cases where this is so, but there are MANY instances where Marirott allotted less points than required to book ANY week in the owned season. There is no way to argue that that us equitable.



I will freely admit that I assume Marriott would be upfront if they planned to take value from the trade system by requiring more to reserve than they give to deposit. I am basing my original belief on the differences being tied to the effect of averaging over all weeks/owners rather than a "skim" on the fact that in every other points system the same thing appears to occur on the surface. With DRI for example at a Fl resort the owners get 7000 points for the highest value week. Yet someone reserving in pays 8500 for at least some of those same weeks. In over a decade of actually operating that system the owners getting the 7000 points have NOT found themselves unable to get their  own weeks as requested nor have they had problems trading out and getting fair value in return. The so called "skim" just isn't there - the points are in fact being spread out fairly and fully. 

So I go in assuming Marriott, a company that has traditionally been held in high regard for ethics, fairness and owner orientation, would at least be as open and fair as companies with far less glowing reputations.  I may have been wrong in that assumption - if so it is extremely disappointing. But I will have to say that anecdotal evidence is piling up that the new points system may in fact take overhead out by a difference in assigned vs required points for trade.  If so that is yet another (and HUGE) negative to consider when evaluating does the system make sense for you to buy into or not.  

I am really disappointed in Marriott even if they AREN'T skimming the game - the simple appearance that they might be is highly damaging to a once sparkling organizational image. A true tactical blunder at best and a killer mistake at worst.


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> Don't the 800 points they give you initially have some value?  As such, it throws your equation off.  I can make a decent case they're worth an easy 1K based on what I've seen.  I plan on using mine to book a 4-5 night stay off-season at Manor Club.  At $250/night,  that's $1000 or $1250 depending on nights.  I actually have points left over as it's 100 pts/night.



If so, tell Marriott to knock off $1000 from the initiation fee and forget the 800 points and see what they say... Will they knock off $200 for the 800 points?

Besides, at the 33 conversion rate it's 26,400 points - which is 1 night in nice hotel... On average, it's probably worth about $300.


----------



## wsrobinson

*What an offer!!!*



DanCali said:


> If so, tell Marriott to knock off $1000 from the initiation fee and forget the 800 points and see what they say... Will they knock off $200 for the 800 points?
> 
> Besides, at the 33 conversion rate it's 26,400 points - which is 1 night in nice hotel... On average, it's probably worth about $300.



Even a modest calculation would put the value at $6-700 if you realistically look at what the 800 points will get you and what you pay to reserve the same room with CASH.  They are giving it to you.  If you don't want yours please donate them to ME!  That offer stands to anyone.  If you decide to join and don't want your measly 800 point (that have no value at all) please donate them to me.


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> Even a modest calculation would put the value at $6-700 if you realistically look at what the 800 points will get you and what you pay to reserve the same room with CASH.  They are giving it to you.  If you don't want yours please donate them to ME!  That offer stands to anyone.  If you decide to join and don't want your measly 800 point (that have no value at all) please donate them to me.



Well, then get Marriott to knock off $600 and ee what they say they are worth...


----------



## ArtsieAng

m61376 said:


> They tried to convince me how much better off I'd be in the new program despite not being able to book a single week in the Platinum season. They also tried to convince me that an OS and an OV room must have been the same value, then, even though OS cost several thousand more initially AND Marriott itself charges more for an OS versus an OV week. At the end of the discussion she finally admitted that she had no idea why OS and OV were assigned the same value and would pass along my complaint.



Seems that you and I have had similar conversations with Marriott yesterday. Amazing isn't it? Sigh.


----------



## wsrobinson

DanCali said:


> Well, then get Marriott to knock off $600 and ee what they say they are worth...



Why would I do that?  They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them.  I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway).  If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there.  I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself.  I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.

Again...give me yours!!!


----------



## tombo

ArtsieAng said:


> They shouldn't.....Just as I pay in the old system to exchange my week, or lock-off my week, or exchange my week for points, on a per week basis, Marriott should charge on a per week basis for any of the above services not covered by the yearly fee.
> 
> Based on your analogy, why should I pay in points reduction to my week for all the above usage possibilities, if I'm only going to exchange my week into another week for a 7 day interval ?



I agree with you, they shouldn't charge one penny or point to exchange like for like. I will agree that a fee for lock-offs and shorter stays is acceptable since more Housekeeping expenses, mor check-in check-out expenses, etc are involved, but week for week should be free.

But Thinze assuming that you are right and marriott needs extra fees to cover their expenses (that is a bunch if crap but for argument's sake we will assume it to be true). If they must get fees to cover their expenses, first be upfront about it like II and everyone else and simply tell everyone how much they are charging to exchange IN ADDITION to what they already charge you annually to be a member (annual membership fees combined with MF's should cover all week for week exchange expenses). 

If greedy Marriott needs the money, charge us DOLLARS to exchange, NOT POINTS! If my week is a 5000 point week and I want to exchange for a 5000 point like week elsewhere or trade back into my home resort next year I can't because they only give me 4500 points (for example) when I deposit my week. It will cost me $9000 to purchase 1000 points plus additional annual MF's for the new points just to be able to trade into my home resort the following year or into a 5000 point resort elsewhere leaving me 500 leftover points which are almost wortless. I would MUCH rather pay a $175 exchange fee and get MY FULL 5000 POINTS so that I could exchange like for like weeks each year! Of course for Marriott to offer that opton would reduce the need for owners to buy more points. Marriott is only looking to make more money for Marriot at current and future owner's expense.

Marriott could have charged a reasonable exchange fee and been honest and upfront about the expenses involved in exchanging weeks for weeks or for exchanging for shorter stays, lock-offs, etc. Instead they hide it trying to trick everyone into believing it is "free" while stealing points from owners which requires them to buy more points just to be able to exchange like for like each year.


It is pure and simply a rip-off for owners and a profit center for Marriott!


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> Why would I do that?  They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them.  I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway).  If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there.  I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself.  I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.
> 
> Again...give me yours!!!



I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an (European) option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.

As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...


----------



## wsrobinson

DanCali said:


> I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.
> 
> As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...



Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!


----------



## DanCali

wsrobinson said:


> Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!



If I convert on Dec 31, I'll take you up on it.


----------



## jjking42

If I want Marriott points I will let someone else convert and then I will buy them on ebay in a few years when they decide the system is too complex too use.

I will keep my platinum week they way it is

1. Use it
2. Rent it 
3. Direct exchange with other Marriot owners
4. Trade with SFX ( I would look for SFX to pick up a bunch of marriott owners)
5  trade with my own II account. ( I already have one for my non Marriott weeks)

If I need more flexibility for less than week stays I will use Hgvc or Wyndham points

There are lots of options out there as long as you are willing to stay at non Marriott resorts

Now I need to go buy some more Wyndham points for 1.00 on Ebay


----------



## m61376

tombo said:


> They have built in their fees. Everytime you deposit a week into points they skim points off the top which is a fee (or profit whichever you prefer). When you exchange for a lockoff, the sum of the two lockoffs is a much higher point total than the points required to rent the whole 2 bed room week, so they are charging more points for that, so yes there is a lockoff fee. If you use points for daily stays, the sum of the daily points are much higher than the points required for a weeks stay, so they are charging fees for daily stays too. By not specifically charging x$ per lock off or daily stay it can be sold as free to members, but if you compare what your points outlay is for lock-offs and nightly stays versus a week in the same unit, you are paying a hefty fee in additonal points charged by Marriott to get "flexibility".
> 
> Marriott is charging you to convert,they will probably start raising annual MF's, they are charging you an annual membership fee, and they skim points every time you deposit and exchange. Marriott is not doing any of the wonderful flexibility options they tout for free, they are charging you each and every time you want to be flexible and use your points to exchange!
> 
> Imagining Newport for 3 prime season days, followed by 3 days at this hawaai resort followed by 4 days at another will IMO be just that, imagining. Every person they sell the points to will be assured that getting those things will be easy, but most if not all prime inventory will be reserved for a whole week before those wanting shorter stays ever get a chance at less than 7 day inventory. In the beginning there will probably be access to less than 7 day stays at prime resorts during prime seasons, but after they sell and convert a ton of people to points the competition will be so intense that getting any prime days/weeks will be hard. In fact I bet that it will be much harder to get prime weeks/locations than before points because Marriott will be able to sell those shoulder weeks as points allowing more people to compete for the prime limited inventory, because points is points no matter where they come from.



Well said- except for one point- at least in the few cases I checked, the sum of the daily fees=weekly fees. In reality, IF they didn't skim off the top and assigned fairer point values, but charged 5-7% more in fees for daily versus week reservations, I could understand the logic due to increased costs and possibly waste. However, in many cases they are making 15% or so on every transaction- so immediately they have devalued every owner's weeks.


----------



## rsackett

wsrobinson said:


> Why would I do that?  They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them.  I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway).  If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there.  I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself.  I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.
> 
> Again...give me yours!!!





DanCali said:


> I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an (European) option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.
> 
> As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...





wsrobinson said:


> Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!



All this brings up a good point.  What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees?  Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for?  What do you guys think?

Ray


----------



## 5infam

I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week. However, I own in Maui (the converted hotel part), and I believe that all of the units were sold out to weeks owners. Therefore, there should be no way that a points owner could book a week, unless a weeks owner turned their time in for points. Then it becomes the same as now if a weeks owner books a prime week, then send it to II. Am I mistaken in that assumption? If I am not correct, then isn't this illegal; meaning that the laws in the states would prevent any company from selling more time than they actually have.

Also, if a weeks owner does turn their week in for points, what week are they turning in? I have weeks 1 to 50 available to me, so would I have to book my week first then trade in for points? I know I will only get 3,100 points irregardless of what week I book (which is crap and the big downside for me), but I am trying to get my hands around this.

Thanks!!

Frank


----------



## winger

smokies said:


> ...
> 
> The issue for all of us  going forward is not what we used to be able to do but what is the best option going forward. Do you stay where you are with II and the old system or spend the dollars to get in the new program.
> 
> If I thought II would have the same opportunities it had before, I would do nothing. I don't think they will and therefore the best deals available for THE WAY I USE TIMESHARES will probably be the Sunday through Thursday opportunities and off season weeks in new program.
> 
> The key question is HOW DO YOU USE TIMESHARE. I don't need the presidents day week at Ocean Pointe. January is fine . Off seasons are OK. Each of us has an entirely different situation.


 exactly how I am approaching this




smokies said:


> ...
> ... I will join because ... Also I think I can access some newer resorts for a few days from time to time which I have not been able to get through II.


 You better rethink this.... so say you own 2 weeks, paying MF's of say $2000+/yr.   I will exagerate the numbers, but in the future, spanking brand new ritzy resort X costs 3000 pts to stay ri night and Sat night.   Are you going to use your two weeks' annual point allotment  (with $2000 MF paid) to stay just two nights???  I sure won't be happy even thinking about the unfairness in this.


----------



## Numismatist

5infam said:


> I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week. However, I own in Maui (the converted hotel part), and I believe that all of the units were sold out to weeks owners. Therefore, there should be no way that a points owner could book a week, unless a weeks owner turned their time in for points. Then it becomes the same as now if a weeks owner books a prime week, then send it to II. Am I mistaken in that assumption? If I am not correct, then isn't this illegal; meaning that the laws in the states would prevent any company from selling more time than they actually have.
> 
> Also, if a weeks owner does turn their week in for points, what week are they turning in? I have weeks 1 to 50 available to me, so would I have to book my week first then trade in for points? I know I will only get 3,100 points irregardless of what week I book (which is crap and the big downside for me), but I am trying to get my hands around this.
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Frank





I think the best prime weeks will be given to the high point holders, so you will be left with shoulder weeks or other worse weeks.  I don't think it can STOP you from getting A week, it STOPS you from getting THE week you'd like...


----------



## Y-ASK

rsackett said:


> All this brings up a good point.  What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees?  Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for?  What do you guys think?
> 
> Ray



I would think that the market will determine that.  As with DVC if you're willing to take less, then you can rent for whatever you're willing to accept.  Maybe $0.38 will be the going price.  That would be good for me .  There have been many DVC owners who have complained that other owners are asking too little for their points yet the average rental cost per point remains low in my opinion.

Y-ASK


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## KathyPet

Both of my resorts are sold out.  there is no "excess inventory" for Marriott to now no longer dump into Interval.  The only way to exchange for one of my resorts is if owners give up their weeks for Reward points at which time Marriott gains control of the week as they always have or I give that week to Interval for a exchange using a "request first" option which I always do so I don't see why everyone is suddenly concerned that all of these new points users will be able to grab the prime weeks that we have been trading for in the past.  Very much overblown IMHO.  Even Marriott is not guaranteeing that they can get these weeks for their points people (thus the wait list concept).


----------



## wsrobinson

rsackett said:


> All this brings up a good point.  What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees?  Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for?  What do you guys think?
> 
> Ray



I think it depends on what you spend them on.  Two nights at Grande Ocean, even at the MOD rate is probably about $400/night.  You can play games with them and see how to get the most bang for your buck.


----------



## 5infam

Numismatist said:


> I think the best prime weeks will be given to the high point holders, so you will be left with shoulder weeks or other worse weeks.  I don't think it can STOP you from getting A week, it STOPS you from getting THE week you'd like...



Thanks for this, but do we know this for sure, or is this speculation? What I mean is that if all weeks, 1 to 50 are sold out - how is it legal for Marriott to then allow new points owners the ability to book any weeks on the property? As soon as they allow 1 week, or 1 day for that matter to go to a points owner, without a weeks owner depositing it - haven't they broken the law and my existing contract? This is the point I am looking for clarification on. Essentially, starting now they should not be able to sell points at my resort, or allow a points owner to stay there, unless an existing weeks owner deposits their week for points - then essentially it becomes a "trade" as we are used to - but for the points owner, it will look like a reservation. Right?


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## m61376

There is one big difference- before only your season owners could book the week. Now you are competing with lots of other owners who may be combining points for a premium week.


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## Numismatist

5infam said:


> Thanks for this, but do we know this for sure, or is this speculation? What I mean is that if all weeks, 1 to 50 are sold out - how is it legal for Marriott to then allow new points owners the ability to book any weeks on the property? As soon as they allow 1 week, or 1 day for that matter to go to a points owner, without a weeks owner depositing it - haven't they broken the law and my existing contract? This is the point I am looking for clarification on. Essentially, starting now they should not be able to sell points at my resort, or allow a points owner to stay there, unless an existing weeks owner deposits them - then essentially it becomes a "trade" as we are used to - but for the points owner, it will look like a reservation. Right?



Speculation:  If you give up your deeded week for points to go somewhere else...you may have booked a bum week to give up for points, but now Marriott owns it, so they can change it to a good week and ONLY give that week to point holders.  You don't care because you gave up your week to go somewhere else.  Through this process though, good weeks will be available to point holders and bum weeks to non-point holders.  Wouldn't this be possible/likely?


----------



## gmarine

wsrobinson said:


> Why would I do that?  They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them.  I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway).  If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there.  I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself.  I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.
> 
> Again...give me yours!!!



By mentioning the Getaways I was simply trying to show you that you can get an off season week cheaper than $250 per night. You said off season and off season weeks are available as Getaways for $500 or so. Currently Thanksgiving week isnt available but I'm sure you could rent the entire week in a two bedroom from a private party for less than $1000.


----------



## 5infam

m61376 said:


> There is one big difference- before only your season owners could book the week. Now you are competing with lots of other owners who may be combining points for a premium week.



Assuming you were answering my question...I am not sure that is the case. Premium members can book 13 months out etc., but again, doesn't the week they book have to come from a weeks owner, if the resort is sold out already? If the resort is not sold out, then yes, they can jump in and reserve on Marriott's owned weeks, which can be whatever Marriott wants to give them during my season, which is what Marriott owns - or better put - whatever Marriott did not sell prior to the conversion. But since my resort is sold out, how is this legal/possible?


----------



## mjbaran

5infam said:


> I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week.........
> Frank



Just got off the phone with a Marriott about this exact point. She stated that week owners are only competing with other week owners at your home resort. This gets back to the separate buckets of inventory idea. Unsold inventory and owners converting to points create the points bucket. Owners who keep their weeks create the weeks bucket. Both compete within their own bucket.

On a related concept I asked about weeks owners depositing into II (as we can do now) and the ability of Marriott to siphon out these deposited weeks or replace high value weeks with less desirable weeks. The rep stated this was not possible since they are separate inventories (bucket concept again). However, when I pressed the rep to reference the applicable program documentation or real-estate law to support her answer, she could not!


----------



## SueDonJ

KathyPet said:


> Both of my resorts are sold out.  there is no "excess inventory" for Marriott to now no longer dump into Interval.  The only way to exchange for one of my resorts is if owners give up their weeks for Reward points at which time Marriott gains control of the week as they always have or I give that week to Interval for a exchange using a "request first" option which I always do so I don't see why everyone is suddenly concerned that all of these new points users will be able to grab the prime weeks that we have been trading for in the past.  Very much overblown IMHO.  Even Marriott is not guaranteeing that they can get these weeks for their points people (thus the wait list concept).



Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.

With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory.  Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners.  Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.


----------



## 5infam

Numismatist said:


> Speculation:  If you give up your deeded week for points to go somewhere else...you may have booked a bum week to give up for points, but now Marriott owns it, so they can change it to a good week and ONLY give that week to point holders.  You don't care because you gave up your week to go somewhere else.  Through this process though, good weeks will be available to point holders and bum weeks to non-point holders.  Wouldn't this be possible/likely?



Now that makes some sense!! If Marriott does not make me book a week first, then convert that week to points - then you are 100% correct. Marriott could then take any week from 1 to 50 and fill a request from a points owner. 

My first impression is "that is not so bad, and although not really fair, something I could deal with). However, as I write this, I am thinking it could be really bad!! Here is the concern, although I am not sure when you can convert your week to points so maybe it is not a concern at all - but here goes.  Let's say I want a 4th of July week (which I usually do). I have to wait for 1 year from that date to book on line and secure my week. I have never had a problem doing this in Maui...maybe not always the check in day I want, but I always get something. Now, if Marriott allows me to trade in for points for next year, any earlier than what I can book for next year; then I, as a weeks only person, am screwed.

Does anyone know exactly when I can trade me week in for points? Is it on January 1st of my use year, or is it sometime before hand?


----------



## Stefa

SueDonJ said:


> Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.
> 
> With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory.  Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners.  Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.



So are you saying that if an owner at a sold out resort enrolls in the points program their week becomes part of the points pool even if they don't elect to exchange for points in any given year?


----------



## wsrobinson

gmarine said:


> By mentioning the Getaways I was simply trying to show you that you can get an off season week cheaper than $250 per night. You said off season and off season weeks are available as Getaways for $500 or so. Currently Thanksgiving week isnt available but I'm sure you could rent the entire week in a two bedroom from a private party for less than $1000.



I understand completely.  I was just making a point that the 800 vacation club points do have value.  It was a simple example and one I had handy as I was just looking at the possibilities.  I wasn't necessarily saying I couldn't make plans a different/better/cheaper way.  Yes, the Thanksgiving week is available thru Redweek for $1000 (and could probably be had for less).  However, a week is a looooong time with family (the points allow for the all powerful OUT - as in so sorry I only booked 4 days but it was so nice to see you).


----------



## 5infam

mjbaran said:


> Just got off the phone with a Marriott about this exact point. She stated that week owners are only competing with other week owners at your home resort. This gets back to the separate buckets of inventory idea. Unsold inventory and owners converting to points create the points bucket. Owners who keep their weeks create the weeks bucket. Both compete within their own bucket.
> 
> On a related concept I asked about weeks owners depositing into II (as we can do now) and the ability of Marriott to siphon out these deposited weeks or replace high value weeks with less desirable weeks. The rep stated this was not possible since they are separate inventories (bucket concept again). However, when I pressed the rep to reference the applicable program documentation or real-estate law to support her answer, she could not!



Thanks for this!! If this is true and in writing, then I do not think I would join the points program, and would encourage others at sold out resorts to not join as well. Although, we don't know this until we can see it in writing somewhere, so that is the dilemma.


----------



## 5infam

SueDonJ said:


> Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.
> 
> With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory.  Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners.  Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.



Interesting point, and are you sure? The reason I ask that is because there have been a few folks here that support the points program - which is great if it works for them (trying to figure out if it works for me or not). I have seen them post "that nothing changes if you join the points program if you want to use your existing week as you do now; and that the points option is just that, an additional option which provides more flexibility!" So, what you are saying Sue is that they are incorrect in their statements. If I join the points program, my deeded week then gets thrown into the Marriott points pool and I then can book my week as a week without using points, but I have now opened my week up to every points user in the system. Is that what you are saying?


----------



## banquopack

5infam said:


> Thanks for this!! If this is true and in writing, then I do not think I would join the points program, and would encourage others at sold out resorts to not join as well. Although, we don't know this until we can see it in writing somewhere, so that is the dilemma.



Here's the issue for you and I - Maui isn't sold out.


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## wa.mama

5infam said:


> Does anyone know exactly when I can trade me week in for points? Is it on January 1st of my use year, or is it sometime before hand?



Marriott rep said the _deadline_ for converting to destination points was 3 months prior to the year of usage of the week in question.  I did not ask about how much in advance you could convert.  This was another negative for me, as we have fixed week 51 and that would require me to plan 15 months in advance which I rarely do.


----------



## 5infam

Last time I was there, 2008, I inquired as to the price of what I owned and bought at resale...which is a 1bdr, mtn/grdn view. I was told by the guide that they were all sold out, and they were only selling a few island views - or of course, the 2 new towers. Now, it would not surprise me to find out that a guide had fibbed - but the sheet she showed me had prices and what was available at that time. There were also a few resale deals I think, but owners still own those until sold, not Marriott.

Is there a way to find out for sure exactly what inventory they had left prior to conversion?


----------



## banquopack

5infam said:


> Last time I was there, 2008, I inquired as to the price of what I owned and bought at resale...which is a 1bdr, mtn/grdn view. I was told by the guide that they were all sold out, and they were only selling a few island views - or of course, the 2 new towers. Now, it would not surprise me to find out that a guide had fibbed - but the sheet she showed me had prices and what was available at that time. There were also a few resale deals I think, but owners still own those until sold, not Marriott.
> 
> Is there a way to find out for sure exactly what inventory they had left prior to conversion?



Not sure, but I'm basing my info on the reply for the resale department - on Monday they told me that Maui is not a sold out resort and as such would not take my 2br lock off unit as a listing.

Also, they list it in their disclosure document as having 11-20 units available.


----------



## 5infam

banquopack said:


> Not sure, but I'm basing my info on the reply for the resale department - on Monday they told me that Maui is not a sold out resort and as such would not take my 2br lock off unit as a listing.
> 
> Also, they list it in their disclosure document as having 11-20 units available.



Hmmm - Maybe it is just 2bdrm's, but maybe not. Sounds like I am in trouble on this one. I will e-mail my guide in Maui and ask her what they had in inventory prior to the switch - assuming she will still talk to me (they tend to get a little snooty with us resale purchasers - or at least that has been my experience). I am also talking to a phone sales rep now and trying to get an answer on when you can actually turn your week into points...I seem to know more than the guy from Marriott - very scary!!!


----------



## scrapngen

5infam said:


> ...I seem to know more than the guy from Marriott - very scary!!!



I suspect that would be because the training probably focused more on how to sell this and the new points and how much flexibility this provides rather than  how the details actually impact/apply to current owners...:rofl:


----------



## SueDonJ

Stefa said:


> So are you saying that if an owner at a sold out resort enrolls in the points program their week becomes part of the points pool even if they don't elect to exchange for points in any given year?



That's how I'm thinking it will work because an owner who enrolls into the Points system does not have to declare his/her usage option until s/he calls in to make a reservation.  So yes, I think all Points inventory, whether it's from existing Developer inventory, Weeks inventory exchanged for MRP, Weeks inventory given to the Rental Program, Enrolled Points or Club Points, will be available to all Points owners on a first-come-first-serve basis.  Of course Marriott will have to satisfy all of the contractual stipulations for 13- and 12-mo inventory controls as well as Weeks/Points percentages of owners, but I think the separation of inventory will be done as reservations are made and not prior to the reservation windows.

So if there are 10 available intervals and 5 owners of those intervals did not enroll in Points, those 5 owners will be guaranteed a week in their season if they follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures of the Weeks system - no Points owner can reserve those 5 Weeks intervals.  But it doesn't matter that the 5 remaining available intervals are owned by Enrolled Points owners who have the ability to book the intervals as weeks under the Weeks system - those owners do not have a Weeks reservation priority over any other Points owner and will be subject to the first-come-first-serve basis.

I could be wrong, but I'm basing this on the things that were discussed in that speculation thread and the little bit of contract language that I've reviewed.


----------



## SueDonJ

5infam said:


> Interesting point, and are you sure? The reason I ask that is because there have been a few folks here that support the points program - which is great if it works for them (trying to figure out if it works for me or not). I have seen them post "that nothing changes if you join the points program if you want to use your existing week as you do now; and that the points option is just that, an additional option which provides more flexibility!" So, what you are saying Sue is that they are incorrect in their statements. If I join the points program, my deeded week then gets thrown into the Marriott points pool and I then can book my week as a week without using points, but I have now opened my week up to every points user in the system. Is that what you are saying?



I think so, but like I said I'm not sure.  It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out before I make the commitment.

It is true that if you enroll in Points then the option to reserve at your home resort doesn't change - you will still have the deeded right to reserve the interval on your existing Weeks deed.  But that right is "subject to availability" and it appears that because Enrolled Weeks owners do not have a reservation priority for their home resort use over Enrolled Points owners of other resorts or Club Points owners, then their Enrolled Weeks intervals will be spread across all Points owners according to their tiered Reservation Procedures, and "subject to availability" will become a much larger factor at all resorts where intervals are held by any Points owners.

I can't find anything that says Marriott must hold back Weeks inventory for ALL Weeks owners including Enrolled Points owners until they've declared their usage intention for a particular year.  The Weeks owners who do not enroll are protected by their contracts from Marriott releasing their inventory to Points owners prior to whatever point Marriott can pick up intervals (at most resorts, that mark is 75 days prior to check-in.)  I don't see anything in the Enrolled Points contracts, so far, that leads me to believe they have the same protections; I think that by signing the contract for Enrollment, they're accepting the terms of Points inventory.  I think.  I hope one of the lawyers here can tell me where I'm wrong, or that Marriott will answer the question definitively.


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> That's how I'm thinking it will work because an owner who enrolls into the Points system does not have to declare his/her usage option until s/he calls in to make a reservation.  So yes, I think all Points inventory, whether it's from existing Developer inventory, Weeks inventory exchanged for MRP, Weeks inventory given to the Rental Program, Enrolled Points or Club Points, will be available to all Points owners on a first-come-first-serve basis.  Of course Marriott will have to satisfy all of the contractual stipulations for 13- and 12-mo inventory controls as well as Weeks/Points percentages of owners, but I think the separation of inventory will be done as reservations are made and not prior to the reservation windows.
> 
> So if there are 10 available intervals and 5 owners of those intervals did not enroll in Points, those 5 owners will be guaranteed a week in their season if they follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures of the Weeks system - no Points owner can reserve those 5 Weeks intervals.  But it doesn't matter that the 5 remaining available intervals are owned by Enrolled Points owners who have the ability to book the intervals as weeks under the Weeks system - those owners do not have a Weeks reservation priority over any other Points owner and will be subject to the first-come-first-serve basis.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I'm basing this on the things that were discussed in that speculation thread and the little bit of contract language that I've reviewed.



I believe that on the webiste, in one of the FAQs, it states that inventory available to points owners comes from three places (I am summarizing, not quoting directly, but you can check the language):

(i) weeks owners who convert to MRP;
(ii) deposits into II (exactly which deposits still seems somewhat unclear); and
(iii) units owned by weeks owners who enroll in points AND ELECT TO CONVERT THEIR WEEK TO POINTS FOR THE YEAR AT ISSUE.

So, simpy by virtue of enrolling in points, I do not believe that your week becomes part of the points bucket.  Presumably, that also means that when you call to reserve a week at your home resort, without using points, you are competing with other weeks owners, both those who have not enrolled, and those who have enrolled but who havent elected points for the year at issue, for whatever weeks are allocated to the "weeks" bucket of inventory.


----------



## 5infam

OK, here is what the Marriott guy said on the phone, after going to talk to a supervisor.

You can exchange your week for points, 3 months in advance of the use year. In our case, our use year is January 1 through Dec. 31. So let's say I want points for my 2012 week. The earliest I can make that request is October 1st, 2011. I can not use those points until 2012. Also, let's say I have points in my account, and bank them, or whatever...I can only reserve 12 months in advance, or 13 months if you have priority. However, they were very clear that the inventory can only come from Marriott owned weeks that they turned into points; or from owners that exchange their week for points or MR points. If I join the Club, and I want to exchange my week for another week, then my week does not go into the points bucket, but goes into the II bucket, just as if I was not part of the club at all. The only difference is that my fees are paid by the Club Dues and I do not have to have a separate II account. If I exchange outside of Marriott, then I pay the Club Dues and the II exchange fee - not a good deal for me.

So if this guy was right (and by the way, I asked to see this in writing and his head almost exploded as he was all over the place, so take it for what it is worth); then as a weeks owner, I am really only threatened by other weeks owners who trade in for points, and/or any weeks that Marriott may still own at my property. So I guess there is no way for me to tell how many people convert to points and what would be better for me. If more convert to points, then I could be screwed on the hot weeks if I do not convert. If I do convert, then I could be screwed by having to buy more points just to get the week I get now, pay more in maintenance, and run the risk that not that many owners convert and I am in the wrong bucket and can't get what I want anyway.

This really sucks!!! I almost wish they forced our hand (I know it would be illegal) and just converted us all to points and that would be the end of it. At least then I would be certain that I would be pissed off, but would understand the program and everyone would play with the same rules - now I don't know how to think or which way is best.   

I will say this - if I walked into a Marriott presentation today, and they tried to sell me this points jazz - I would walk out (with my gift in hand) as quickly as possible!! Not having a resort priority is selling impossible dreams to the unknowing masses - and is not what I expected from Marriott. With so many people in the system, and so many weeks owners not part of the system (at least from day 1) - there is no way they could justify to me that I would always be able to get into Maui, where I own now and bought to stay there. I would laugh at the sales rep that tried to pitch that nonsense. This open resort architecture they are selling is going to turn the majority of new points buyers into the Platinum Weeks Owners at NCV looking for a summer week...very unhappy owners!!


----------



## 5infam

scrapngen said:


> I suspect that would be because the training probably focused more on how to sell this and the new points and how much flexibility this provides rather than  how the details actually impact/apply to current owners...:rofl:



Too funny!! You are probably right. He was all about pitching me and how great it was, until I mentioned that I would only get 3,100 points to exchange my week, and it would take 3,550 to get the summer week I get now. To that he said "yeah, that sucks for a lot of weeks owners". That is an exact quote; so apparently he has heard that one a lot already and we are in day 3 of the "soft launch".


----------



## hipslo

hipslo said:


> I believe that on the webiste, in one of the FAQs, it states that inventory available to points owners comes from three places (I am summarizing, not quoting directly, but you can check the language):
> 
> (i) weeks owners who convert to MRP;
> (ii) deposits into II (exactly which deposits still seems somewhat unclear); and
> (iii) units owned by weeks owners who enroll in points AND ELECT TO CONVERT THEIR WEEK TO POINTS FOR THE YEAR AT ISSUE.
> 
> So, simpy by virtue of enrolling in points, I do not believe that your week becomes part of the points bucket.  Presumably, that also means that when you call to reserve a week at your home resort, without using points, you are competing with other weeks owners, both those who have not enrolled, and those who have enrolled but who havent elected points for the year at issue, for whatever weeks are allocated to the "weeks" bucket of inventory.



Here is the language from the FAQ on the mvci webpage for the new system (highlighting is mine):


*Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?*

Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks *and elect Vacation Club Points*, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.


----------



## 5infam

hipslo said:


> Here is the language from the FAQ on the mvci webpage for the new system (highlighting is mine):
> 
> 
> *Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?*
> 
> Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks *and elect Vacation Club Points*, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.



It's that last line that scares the crap out of me - and is totally unclear. I have spoken to 3 Marriott reps, and all have said that II deposits are in a seperate bucket. That is, until I point out this language in the FAQ, then they say the FAQ is wrong and it is still a seperate bucket. Who knows, we need written clarification on that item and it is a huge point for me. This is how Marriott can destroy any chance for me to get back into my home resort, if I do not join. If they can do this, then I think I would be forced to join, if I want to exchange back in.


----------



## banquopack

hipslo said:


> Here is the language from the FAQ on the mvci webpage for the new system (highlighting is mine):
> 
> 
> *Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?*
> 
> Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks *and elect Vacation Club Points*, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.




For exactly this reason I hope they put out their disclosure document every year.  They want us to jump in the bucket - a bunch of their buckets are quite empty!

They only list 11 of their 48 resorts with non-owner turned in inventory.  That sucks for the points people.  I can also see that if I tried to cash in my 10K maui points to visit kauai, there probably won't be anything at waiohai for me.  Then I'm screwed and have to use my points to buy back into my own resort at a serious penalty.


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> I believe that on the webiste, in one of the FAQs, it states that inventory available to points owners comes from three places (I am summarizing, not quoting directly, but you can check the language):
> 
> (i) weeks owners who convert to MRP;
> (ii) deposits into II (exactly which deposits still seems somewhat unclear); and
> (iii) units owned by weeks owners who enroll in points AND ELECT TO CONVERT THEIR WEEK TO POINTS FOR THE YEAR AT ISSUE.
> 
> So, simpy by virtue of enrolling in points, I do not believe that your week becomes part of the points bucket.  Presumably, that also means that when you call to reserve a week at your home resort, without using points, you are competing with other weeks owners, both those who have not enrolled, and those who have enrolled but who havent elected points for the year at issue, for whatever weeks are allocated to the "weeks" bucket of inventory.





5infam said:


> OK, here is what the Marriott guy said on the phone, after going to talk to a supervisor.
> 
> You can exchange your week for points, 3 months in advance of the use year. In our case, our use year is January 1 through Dec. 31. So let's say I want points for my 2012 week. The earliest I can make that request is October 1st, 2011. I can not use those points until 2012. Also, let's say I have points in my account, and bank them, or whatever...I can only reserve 12 months in advance, or 13 months if you have priority. However, they were very clear that the inventory can only come from Marriott owned weeks that they turned into points; or from owners that exchange their week for points or MR points. If I join the Club, and I want to exchange my week for another week, then my week does not go into the points bucket, but goes into the II bucket, just as if I was not part of the club at all. The only difference is that my fees are paid by the Club Dues and I do not have to have a separate II account. If I exchange outside of Marriott, then I pay the Club Dues and the II exchange fee - not a good deal for me.
> 
> So if this guy was right (and by the way, I asked to see this in writing and his head almost exploded as he was all over the place, so take it for what it is worth); then as a weeks owner, I am really only threatened by other weeks owners who trade in for points, and/or any weeks that Marriott may still own at my property. So I guess there is no way for me to tell how many people convert to points and what would be better for me. If more convert to points, then I could be screwed on the hot weeks if I do not convert. If I do convert, then I could be screwed by having to buy more points just to get the week I get now, pay more in maintenance, and run the risk that not that many owners convert and I am in the wrong bucket and can't get what I want anyway.
> 
> This really sucks!!! I almost wish they forced our hand (I know it would be illegal) and just converted us all to points and that would be the end of it. At least then I would be certain that I would be pissed off, but would understand the program and everyone would play with the same rules - now I don't know how to think or which way is best.
> 
> I will say this - if I walked into a Marriott presentation today, and they tried to sell me this points jazz - I would walk out (with my gift in hand) as quickly as possible!! Not having a resort priority is selling impossible dreams to the unknowing masses - and is not what I expected from Marriott. With so many people in the system, and so many weeks owners not part of the system (at least from day 1) - there is no way they could justify to me that I would always be able to get into Maui, where I own now and bought to stay there. I would laugh at the sales rep that tried to pitch that nonsense. This open resort architecture they are selling is going to turn the majority of new points buyers into the Platinum Weeks Owners at NCV looking for a summer week...very unhappy owners!!



I WAS WRONG!  (Not angry, just shouting from the rooftops.   )  I'm glad, though, because that was a huge concern.  It makes sense now, thanks, that's the kind of thing I was hoping to see.  But what a gigantic dopeslap for me for missing something right in front of my face!

What 5infam says is correct, though - there's no way to tell how many owners at your resort are Enrolled Points owners or have elected a points exchange in a certain year.  That is another reason to consider availability at home resorts as a bigger issue than it was under the Weeks system, so first-come-first-serve is still going to be more important.


----------



## banquopack

SueDonJ said:


> I WAS WRONG!  (Not angry, just shouting from the rooftops.   )  I'm glad, though, because that was a huge concern.  It makes sense now, thanks, that's the kind of thing I was hoping to see.  But what a gigantic dopeslap for me for missing something right in front of my face!
> 
> What 5infam says is correct, though - there's no way to tell how many owners at your resort are Enrolled Points owners or have elected a points exchange in a certain year.  That is another reason to consider availability at home resorts as a bigger issue than it was under the Weeks system, so first-come-first-serve is still going to be more important.



Their disclosure guide does list the total members by resort.  Now we just need them to issue that document every year (or quarter - even better) to see where we stand.


----------



## RedHook

*Went to presentation today*

I've been reading this board for three days, and I went to the owner's presentation at Frenchman's Cove today. Thought I would share some thoughts and highlights.

First of all, I don't get the hysteria over the alleged point skimming. I would have to be out of my mind to exchange my week for points and then try to book my own resort anyway. So the differential means nothing to me. Marriott making a profit seems to really irritate some folks. Did you really think they paid $13 for the chicken sandwich and fries you ordered by the pool? As for not getting your "fair" points, in most of the scenarios I've seen here, you wouldn't use points anyway. If you're trading a week for a week, points never enter into the equation. I can trade my MFC week for higher-valued Aruba or for lower-valued Panama City. I don't need points to exchange a week.

The point differential was described to me as a "breakage allowance". If they are going to let us stay for five nights or 11 nights, that will force unused nights in between these irregular stays. That's where the 7% premium comes from.

Points can be banked for one year. So if you're saving for a big African safari that requires 13,000 points, you would have to plan it so that you could bank 2011 and borrow from 2013 to be able to go on this trip in 2012.

Non-Marriott exchanges through II would not be covered by your annual membership fee. That's the one extra charge.

Frenchman's Cove is the only property still selling deeded weeks. That will continue until the USVI government gets their act together.

They were offering 13,900 Destination points if we bought another week today.

Took the $100, having dinner at Havana Blue tonight.


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## TheTimeTraveler

RedHook said:


> I've been reading this board for three days, and I went to the owner's presentation at Frenchman's Cove today. Thought I would share some thoughts and highlights.
> 
> First of all, I don't get the hysteria over the alleged point skimming. I would have to be out of my mind to exchange my week for points and then try to book my own resort anyway. So the differential means nothing to me. Marriott making a profit seems to really irritate some folks. Did you really think they paid $13 for the chicken sandwich and fries you ordered by the pool? As for not getting your "fair" points, in most of the scenarios I've seen here, you wouldn't use points anyway. If you're trading a week for a week, points never enter into the equation. I can trade my MFC week for higher-valued Aruba or for lower-valued Panama City. I don't need points to exchange a week.
> 
> The point differential was described to me as a "breakage allowance". If they are going to let us stay for five nights or 11 nights, that will force unused nights in between these irregular stays. That's where the 7% premium comes from.
> 
> Points can be banked for one year. So if you're saving for a big African safari that requires 13,000 points, you would have to plan it so that you could bank 2011 and borrow from 2013 to be able to go on this trip in 2012.
> 
> Non-Marriott exchanges through II would not be covered by your annual membership fee. That's the one extra charge.
> 
> Frenchman's Cove is the only property still selling deeded weeks. That will continue until the USVI government gets their act together.
> 
> They were offering 13,900 Destination points if we bought another week today.
> 
> Took the $100, having dinner at Havana Blue tonight.






Curious:  What is the value (or the perceived value) of 13,900 Destination Points?


----------



## Numismatist

RedHook said:


> I've been reading this board for three days, and I went to the owner's presentation at Frenchman's Cove today. Thought I would share some thoughts and highlights.
> 
> First of all, I don't get the hysteria over the alleged point skimming. I would have to be out of my mind to exchange my week for points and then try to book my own resort anyway. So the differential means nothing to me. Marriott making a profit seems to really irritate some folks. Did you really think they paid $13 for the chicken sandwich and fries you ordered by the pool? As for not getting your "fair" points, in most of the scenarios I've seen here, you wouldn't use points anyway. If you're trading a week for a week, points never enter into the equation. I can trade my MFC week for higher-valued Aruba or for lower-valued Panama City. I don't need points to exchange a week.
> 
> The point differential was described to me as a "breakage allowance". If they are going to let us stay for five nights or 11 nights, that will force unused nights in between these irregular stays. That's where the 7% premium comes from.
> 
> Points can be banked for one year. So if you're saving for a big African safari that requires 13,000 points, you would have to plan it so that you could bank 2011 and borrow from 2013 to be able to go on this trip in 2012.
> 
> Non-Marriott exchanges through II would not be covered by your annual membership fee. That's the one extra charge.
> 
> Frenchman's Cove is the only property still selling deeded weeks. That will continue until the USVI government gets their act together.
> 
> They were offering 13,900 Destination points if we bought another week today.
> 
> Took the $100, having dinner at Havana Blue tonight.



" First of all, I don't get the hysteria over the alleged point skimming. I would have to be out of my mind to exchange my week for points and then try to book my own resort anyway. "

The issue is that if there is another resort I previously thought of as EQUAL to MFC, now I can't get that as an EVEN trade can I?  No.  If I only get 2775 points for my MFC Gold and the previously-thought-of EQUAL now needs 3000 points (just like MFC does) then I can't get in.  I can now ONLY trade down with points.

P. S. Enjoy Havana Blue!  How are the waves?


----------



## 5infam

RedHook - I think the skimming thing irritates people as we were expecting an internal Marriott exchange program, outside of II - and we can not exchange as we could today, like for like. Now using points, it takes more points than what we would get for our units to get what we get today  - assuming we trade our week for points. 

You may not like it so much if you don't join the program, and Marriott is allowed to take any weeks deposited into II and turn those into points, thus raiding the pool of exchange options for you. You also may not like it if you do enroll in points and trade a week for a week, but again, Marriott raided the weeks available and gave them to points people. This is still the unclear part of the points program - we are not 100% sure what Marriott can and can not do in relation to weeks deposited into II whether they come from points members or not. Until that is answered in writing, we are in the dark.

With that said, enjoy the $100 bucks at dinner and thanks for posting what you found out


----------



## Old Hickory

RedHook said:


> Took the $100, having dinner at Havana Blue tonight.



Be sure to have the house special Margarita.  One of the best I've had anywhere!


----------



## ArtsieAng

> RedHook
> 
> First of all, I don't get the hysteria over the alleged point skimming. I would have to be out of my mind to exchange my week for points and then try to book my own resort anyway. So the differential means nothing to me.



The program will work for some, but for those who are interested in a week "like for like" exchange, it will not work. The points that Marriott alloted for our weeks only entitles us to trade down.

We can choose to use our weeks as in the past, but with a system that does not have a home resort priority, it will become much more difficult to get a decent week, at your home resort. Unlike in the past, we are no longer just competing with those who own at our resort, and within our season for a week. Sigh!


----------



## KarenP

*How will this affect the Florida Club?*

I'm assuming that if I elect to pay for the point conversion, and I don't use points in a particular year, I am free to make a reservation at any Florida Club resort, just as I am now?  And then either use that reservation myself, rent it, or deposit with II or another exchange company?


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

KarenP said:


> I'm assuming that if I elect to pay for the point conversion, and I don't use points in a particular year, I am free to make a reservation at any Florida Club resort, just as I am now?  And then either use that reservation myself, rent it, or deposit with II or another exchange company?





Good luck finding inventory within the 6 month time frame.  I think it will be more difficult than normal to use the Florida Club because of the new program, but hopefully I am wrong.


----------



## Numismatist

Has anyone looked at the various points being given per location and determined if Marriott has correctly prioritized resorts?


----------



## divenski

Numismatist said:


> The issue is that if there is another resort I previously thought of as EQUAL to MFC, now I can't get that as an EVEN trade can I?  No.  If I only get 2775 points for my MFC Gold and the previously-thought-of EQUAL now needs 3000 points (just like MFC does) then I can't get in.  I can now ONLY trade down with points.
> 
> P. S. Enjoy Havana Blue!  How are the waves?



Arguably, a lot of people were already trading down thru II. An II trader would lose any right to a view location, in fact was put on the bottom of the room priority list, and probably couldn't get a high season week either.

IMO, the people who really have a right to complain are those who bought high demand seasons and go often, but now will face more competition for good weeks. The own to use concept is on it's way out.


----------



## MikeZ

Just got off the phone with Owner Services, and am now madder than ever!  After being put on hold for 16 minutes when I asked about the disparity in points given/points needed, the rep came back on and told me that he "didn't really get a good answer."  He told me that he has been asking the same question since he was initially trained and hasn't gotten any response.  I asked him why he thought they would do it, and he told me "probably to get you to buy more points!"  I love honesty, at least!

He asked if I wanted to file an official complaint with his supervisor, as that may make a difference with enough people calling.  After another wait, she came on and proceeded to insult my intelligence!  When I described my principal concern as not being able to trade like-for-like, she told me that has never been the case.  I gave her my trading history with my Waiohai unit, and she told me I MUST JUST BE LUCKY!

It went downhill after that....

She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points.  All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."

They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.  The concern definitely rolls uphill!


----------



## scrapngen

MikeZ said:


> Just got off the phone with Owner Services, and am now madder than ever!  After being put on hold for 16 minutes when I asked about the disparity in points given/points needed, the rep came back on and told me that he "didn't really get a good answer."  He told me that he has been asking the same question since he was initially trained and hasn't gotten any response.  I asked him why he thought they would do it, and he told me "probably to get you to buy more points!"  I love honesty, at least!
> 
> He asked if I wanted to file an official complaint with his supervisor, as that may make a difference with enough people calling.  After another wait, she came on and proceeded to insult my intelligence!  When I described my principal concern as not being able to trade like-for-like, she told me that has never been the case.  I gave her my trading history with my Waiohai unit, and she told me I MUST JUST BE LUCKY!
> 
> It went downhill after that....
> 
> She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points.  All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."
> 
> They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.  The concern definitely rolls uphill!



Yeah...now owners will "hate dealing with Marriott!!" - that will be so much better for them   :hysterical:


----------



## RedHook

*Re:*

To the folks who replied and said that they can only trade down because of the point skimming, that is not how it was explained to me. Our salesman said that if you are trading your week for another week, you exchange weeks, not points. Like I said in my previous post: I can trade up or down, it doesn't matter, as long as it is week for week. Points never come into play.


----------



## SDMiller

Where is it on the Marriott website how many points it takes to do the "trips" ie Safari, etc.  We have not yet joined but are thinking about it for we have five weeks at different resorts. 

SD


----------



## ArtsieAng

> MikeZ
> 
> She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points. All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."
> 
> *They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.* The concern definitely rolls uphill!



:hysterical:


----------



## Numismatist

RedHook said:


> To the folks who replied and said that they can only trade down because of the point skimming, that is not how it was explained to me. Our salesman said that if you are trading your week for another week, you exchange weeks, not points. Like I said in my previous post: I can trade up or down, it doesn't matter, as long as it is week for week. Points never come into play.



You're forgetting that trading week for week will be limited to those Marriott weeks that find their way into II and aren't immmediately yanked back out by Marriott.  Ask yourself:  what will be left in II to trade for?  Less valuable...always.


----------



## Stefa

RedHook said:


> Our salesman said that if you are trading your week for another week, you exchange weeks, not points. Like I said in my previous post: I can trade up or down, it doesn't matter, as long as it is week for week. Points never come into play.



Typical salesperson BS.   If points don't come into play, why are they assigning a point value to our weeks?


----------



## 5infam

MikeZ said:


> Just got off the phone with Owner Services, and am now madder than ever!  After being put on hold for 16 minutes when I asked about the disparity in points given/points needed, the rep came back on and told me that he "didn't really get a good answer."  He told me that he has been asking the same question since he was initially trained and hasn't gotten any response.  I asked him why he thought they would do it, and he told me "probably to get you to buy more points!"  I love honesty, at least!
> 
> He asked if I wanted to file an official complaint with his supervisor, as that may make a difference with enough people calling.  After another wait, she came on and proceeded to insult my intelligence!  When I described my principal concern as not being able to trade like-for-like, she told me that has never been the case.  I gave her my trading history with my Waiohai unit, and she told me I MUST JUST BE LUCKY!
> 
> It went downhill after that....
> 
> She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points.  All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."
> 
> They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.  The concern definitely rolls uphill!



This really sucks!!! I believe that today, if I trade my week into II and request my identical week (albeit the view is not guaranteed) that I, as an owner of that resort, will get priority over non-owners. That is all I want - the ability to get back what i put in, and get so on a priority basis as I have now. Now, I was also able to use my Hawaii power and get 2bdr units for my 1bdrm Hawaii - but I can see where Marriott may want to stop that. However, to short change me on like for like is unacceptable!!


----------



## James1975NY

MikeZ said:


> Just got off the phone with Owner Services, and am now madder than ever!  After being put on hold for 16 minutes when I asked about the disparity in points given/points needed, the rep came back on and told me that he "didn't really get a good answer."  He told me that he has been asking the same question since he was initially trained and hasn't gotten any response.  I asked him why he thought they would do it, and he told me "probably to get you to buy more points!"  I love honesty, at least!
> 
> He asked if I wanted to file an official complaint with his supervisor, as that may make a difference with enough people calling.  After another wait, she came on and proceeded to insult my intelligence!  When I described my principal concern as not being able to trade like-for-like, she told me that has never been the case.  I gave her my trading history with my Waiohai unit, and she told me I MUST JUST BE LUCKY!
> 
> It went downhill after that....
> 
> She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points.  All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."
> 
> They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.  The concern definitely rolls uphill!



Lets use a Starwood example to compare this to. At the Sheraton Vistana Villages which is part of the Starwood Club they have a similar situation where an owner at the Sheraton Vistana Villages is given 67,100 "club point" for their unit type and season. They have access to a certain range of weeks which do not matter for this discussion.

SVO also realizes that other owners at other club resorts want to come into this resort for those said weeks. They may require 81,000 from an owner that does not own at the Sheraton Vistana Villages to book one of "those" weeks while still charging the owner of the home resort the 67,100 for the same weeks.

This is what is happening with the Marriott program as well and is not uncommong for points programs. It is basically a way to get more points burned from the books by requiring more points in and at the same time, not giving the home resort owner more points to go "out" with. It is a way to try to balance the program and work towards burning points.

It is very likely that you will see the points requirements change from time to time as the program evolves but this is actually necessary for now to make sure that the program runs as whole as possible. They have the flexibility to make the program more efficient as time goes and they have a better understand of what to expect from owner usage.

So for now....."outside" owner burns more for the same week than the "home" resort owner would, but the "home" resort owner does not have as many points to play with if they should elect to book another resort in the club.

Nature of a new points program.


----------



## ArtsieAng

RedHook said:


> To the folks who replied and said that they can only trade down because of the point skimming, that is not how it was explained to me. Our salesman said that if you are trading your week for another week, you exchange weeks, not points. Like I said in my previous post: I can trade up or down, it doesn't matter, as long as it is week for week. Points never come into play.



You can trade up or down?

Before you can exchange a week, you must first be able to reserve one. The fact that there is no home resort priority means that unless you are premier  status, the odds of you getting a decent trading week have been significantly reduced.........In addition, who knows how things are going to play out with II as far as exchanges go?


----------



## rickxylon

*Latest attempt with MVCI service*

Welcome!
Please wait while we contact the next available agent...
You are now speaking with Daniel L.!
Daniel L.: Hi! My name is Daniel L.. How may I help you?
Rick : I would like to know why in the new points system I don't get enough points for the weeks I own to trade for the same/comparable resort. If it takes X points to reserve a week, whay don't I get the same number of points?
Daniel L.: Allow me to check on that for you. One moment.
Rick : Thanks
Daniel L.: Essentially the new points system is an option, it is not meant to replace your home week but to add an additional option for travel and exchange.
Daniel L.: If you need to occupy your home resort in season, this option is still available through your ownership.
Daniel L.: Traveling to other resorts, the point values in the system vary by resort and travel seasons, just as before, some may require more points.
Daniel L.: You are allowed to borrow against future years usage to make up differences in point levels.
Rick : That's not what I asked. I am supposed to be able to trade to a comparable resort/time period, etc. with the value of my week. There is a discrepancy in that value. I am given X points but it would take someone more points than that to exchange into that week. That makes no sense to me and it looks like Marriott is being unfair in assigning the 2 different point values. Please answer the question I am asking.
Daniel L.: I am looking at the information you are asking about, to see what you mean by a points discrepancy. One moment.
Rick : Simply pick any week I own. You can see the value given to me. In the Catalogue of all properties you can see the # of points needed for someone to trade in. The trade in points required for the same week I own is greater than the number of points I am given. I do realize that I wouldn't use points to reserve a week in my home resort. However, this is the only way to look at comparability to other properties. It also should clearly be the identical number of points. 
Daniel L.: The new points system is based on travel demand. So not all weeks in Platinum timeframe have the same value. I am looking at your Aruba Ocean Club 1 bedroom unit. If you elect to enroll that week for Destination Points, you would receive 2,900 points for it. Most of your Platinum season timeframe, you can get a 1 bedroom for that price or less.
Daniel L.: Only the holiday dates and the month of March show a higher amount needed.
Rick : Not true from what I recall. I believe the Feb weeks (other than President's week) all require more than 2900 points.
Daniel L.: Jan 7 – Feb 3, 2011 and Apr 1 – Apr 21 2011 all show that they require 2,750 points for a week, for 1 bedroom Ocean View units at Aruba Ocean Club.
Daniel L.: Feb 4 – Feb 17 and Feb 25 – Mar 31 of 2011 show 2,975 points needed for the unit, which is only slightly more than your 2,900 point value given for enrolling.
Daniel L.: And for enrolling you are given 800 PlusPoints right away, which essentially corrects that discrepancy.
Rick : So why don't I get 2,975 points, since that is when we have always gone?
Rick : The 800 points are only good for 2011. I am already reserved for 2 weeks there. They won't do me any good every year after that. This is still very unfair.
Daniel L.: And remember, if you are traveling to your home resort, you have the option to reserve as you always have, without enrolling your week into the system.
Daniel L.: This system is meant as an option to help you in traveling to other locations. If you occupy at Aruba in a particular year, then you don't have to elect your week into the Destination Points for that year.
Rick : I'm not concerned about traveling to my home resort. My concern is being able to go to a comparable resort for what my week is worth. If my week is worth 2975 points for someone else to reserve, I should have the same number of points to use for reserving at some other resort. 
Daniel L. left the chat.
Your chat has ended.  Thank you for speaking with us.
Please help us improve our service by clicking on the following link to take a short survey: CLICK HERE 

Daniel left the chat just like that with no good bye and never answered my questions.

FRUSTRATING!!!!


----------



## wa.mama

As I see it, the ball is in our court.  "OUR" meaning the collective group of deeded weeks marriott owners, resale or not.  To get the ball rolling, Marriott needs a significant number of owners to join AND convert their units into points.  This may be the only time owners have such a significant say in the future of a marriott program.


----------



## scrapngen

rickxylon said:


> Welcome!....
> 
> ....Rick : I'm not concerned about traveling to my home resort. My concern is being able to go to a comparable resort for what my week is worth. If my week is worth 2975 points for someone else to reserve, I should have the same number of points to use for reserving at some other resort.
> Daniel L. left the chat.
> Your chat has ended.  Thank you for speaking with us.
> Please help us improve our service by clicking on the following link to take a short survey: CLICK HERE
> 
> Daniel left the chat just like that with no good bye and never answered my questions.
> 
> FRUSTRATING!!!!



Hope you took the "short survey" Does it allow you to enter anything besides canned responses??
I can't even get anyone to chat with me!! :rofl: Just tried and there is no one available


----------



## Numismatist

This thread reads like a classic Kubler-Ross grief course:hysterical: :

(1) Denial:  I can't believe Marriott did this to us.
(2) Anger:  This is ridiculous, I'm going to...
(3) Bargaining:  If I join I still can still use my week can't I?
(4) Depression:  Yeah, the new system really sucks...
(5) Acceptance:  I guess joining is better than not joining...

<sorry> thought everyone might need a little humor!:rofl:


----------



## hipslo

*Is it just me or is that "Sophi" in all the points videos REALLY annoying?*

I mean, c'mon....


----------



## DanCali

rsackett said:


> All this brings up a good point.  What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees?  Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for?  What do you guys think?
> 
> Ray



Didn't we just set the price at $0.50? "



wsrobinson said:


> Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!



On a more serious note - ifthere is a market to rent points, competition will probably lower it to $0.40 or so.


----------



## tandemrider

*Such a deal!*

I was offered 4025 points for my wks yet the cheapest cost in points for a off peak wk is 4050 and the most expensive or primetime wks are 4800 points.  Owning more than 1 wk, I have no problem reserving primetime wks with the old system. I see little to gain for me unless they sweeten their offer.
Also, what is to stop them from holding your points/yr at a given level and raising the points required to stay at your resort or other locations?!


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## Numismatist

Sometimes, as a Marriott timeshare buyer, I feel like these people...


----------



## urple2

That's a riot...lol  :hysterical:


----------



## KathyPet

And do we really believe that Sophi is Marriott Vacation Advisor.  Can you say "Marketing Person?"


----------



## billymach4

*How Long Before We See the First ....*

The First poor vacationer ends up here on Tug. 

Need Advice. I just bought a 6000 pt package for $55,000 while I was touring Lakeshore Reserve. The system is really nice. 

Should I rescind????

I say any day now, hopefully before week is out!


----------



## vincenzi

Numismatist said:


> Sometimes, as a Marriott timeshare buyer, I feel like these people...



Numismatist, thank you for that one.  I laughed out loud.:hysterical: 

Hey, it is better than crying, right?


----------



## billymach4

*MVCD Points on the Resale Market....?*

What is the general theory here.

My theory here is that in about 1 or 2 years some of the new points package owners will want out. 

As Boca has hinted earlier a resale market will develop. Now I can see how this might mature. As the new packages hit the Market, or as they pass thru Marriott's sniff test. Marriott will let these packages fall into the Market Place. I suspect this might happen because Marriott does not really want to carry the MF's on these points. Marriott wants to continue to Build out, Develop and sell new packages. 

This is just my gut feeling. Yes Marriott might take some back and recycle but only a select few. 

Marriott's real goal is to Develop more TS's and to continue on building and selling new Points packages.


----------



## ldanna

*Reflections*

I was wandering: why would Marriott introduce this kind of system and who are the target customers?

Remembering recent threads here, I could see that Fletch (explaining why Marriott wants a new system) and Perry (how it would be done) were right.

The target customers are not us, the existing owners, internal or external. No. Marriott wants to sell their high end weeks on the new resorts and don't know how to do it with the current (or extinct) system. On the new Point System, it would be easier to do it (or at least Marriott people think it would).

How do you convince someone to buy a developer unit at Hawaii or Marco Island for $60k to $100k? Under the new system, you buy these weeks and get 9,000 to 13,000 points/year. You can use your week at your resort or, converting it to points and have 3, 4 or even 5 weeks in different resorts, like Newport Coast, HHI, or even Orlando during their high season. You will even be able to beat the owners choosing their own weeks.

BTW, we all know that they won't be able to sell those weeks because they are very expensive in this economy and any other economy.

This new system will only be good for current owners of Hawaii, ski weeks. and maybe for those others that have combined more than 7,000 points (which should be the minority). Somebody said (I can't remember where) that someone on the phone said they are expecting only 5% of current owners to join this new program, and I think this is true.

During the next weeks, it will be important for those attending presentations to see what the representatives will be focusing. They won't offer Lakeshore or even the small inventory at the desert. They should be pushing only the expensive weeks.

Am I right? Who knows, time will tell. If this happens and just 5% join the new system, we won't see much of a difference on the II inventory. In fact, even if this new system succeeds, people will be reserving the weeks they want direct at the resort, it won't be necessary to use any week deposit at II.


----------



## floyddl

With a well designed points program that offered fair value for the weeks  there would really be no need for an internal exchange program.  Let people make their own exchanges using the points they are allotted.  Now it seems that to get an equitable exchange you would need to use their internal exchange program.  There should be no need to offer both.  Yes, the have succeeded in giving people more flexibility and options but the points program is not a desirable one.


----------



## floyddl

billymach4 said:


> What is the general theory here.
> 
> My theory here is that in about 1 or 2 years some of the new points package owners will want out.
> 
> As Boca has hinted earlier a resale market will develop. Now I can see how this might mature. As the new packages hit the Market, or as they pass thru Marriott's sniff test. Marriott will let these packages fall into the Market Place. I suspect this might happen because Marriott does not really want to carry the MF's on these points. Marriott wants to continue to Build out, Develop and sell new packages.
> 
> This is just my gut feeling. Yes Marriott might take some back and recycle but only a select few.
> 
> Marriott's real goal is to Develop more TS's and to continue on building and selling new Points packages.



I am not convinced that Marriott's goal is to continue timeshare development.  The points program seems to be designed to allow them to unload inventory of low demand weeks at a premium price.  They have no future building plans at this time, haven't they suspended new developments?


----------



## 5infam

Numismatist said:


> This thread reads like a classic Kubler-Ross grief course:hysterical: :
> 
> (1) Denial:  I can't believe Marriott did this to us.
> (2) Anger:  This is ridiculous, I'm going to...
> (3) Bargaining:  If I join I still can still use my week can't I?
> (4) Depression:  Yeah, the new system really sucks...
> (5) Acceptance:  I guess joining is better than not joining...
> 
> <sorry> thought everyone might need a little humor!:rofl:



Hey, I recognize myself in the above post - that is me in a nutshell!!!:hysterical:  :rofl:


----------



## 5infam

billymach4 said:


> What is the general theory here.
> 
> My theory here is that in about 1 or 2 years some of the new points package owners will want out.
> 
> As Boca has hinted earlier a resale market will develop. Now I can see how this might mature. As the new packages hit the Market, or as they pass thru Marriott's sniff test. Marriott will let these packages fall into the Market Place. I suspect this might happen because Marriott does not really want to carry the MF's on these points. Marriott wants to continue to Build out, Develop and sell new packages.
> 
> This is just my gut feeling. Yes Marriott might take some back and recycle but only a select few.
> 
> Marriott's real goal is to Develop more TS's and to continue on building and selling new Points packages.



My theory is that the points program won't work very well for new buyers; except for those places where Marriott still had lots of inventory. Marriott can put all those unsold weeks in the pool, someone buys enough points to travel to that destination, and there you go - a working system. Where people will get pissed pretty quickly is in places that are sold out, or where Marriott owned very little. If Marriott is not allowed to raid the II deposits, then the new points owners will have little choices and figure out quickly that they were duped and want out. If Marriott raids the system and the new points buyer gets what they want, when they want it, then the market may stay firm for points buyers, and weeks owners will get shafted. 

I can totally see people buying enough points to go here or there as cheap as possible, then upgrading later if it works out. I did this (as well as lots of others) with DVC. Buy enough to get in, see it work, then buy more. However, if it does not work, then it could crash pretty quickly. 

The way I see it, I did not buy developer through Marriott because it was way too expensive, so I bought resale. The points program is way too expensive for me as well, if I were a new points purchaser. Maybe a resale will work in the future, if the price is right. I paid $13,000 out the door for my Maui week; which at the time was going for about $26,000 plus fees. If I were to buy enough points at the "discounted" rate right now of $9.20 per point, and travel a summer week in the same size and view unit I own, it would cost me $32,660 (3,550 points). The only savings would be about $60 per year in maintenance fees. For me in Hawaii, points are cheaper in maintenance than what they hit me for today. So all in all, I guess I should be happy I still have my resale, but I do wish this points program worked better for me.


----------



## SueDonJ

floyddl said:


> I am not convinced that Marriott's goal is to continue timeshare development.  The points program seems to be designed to allow them to unload inventory of low demand weeks at a premium price.  They have no future building plans at this time, haven't they suspended new developments?



They have, but more as a result of the impact from the economy's woes on discretionary spending than anything else, I think.  All indications to stockholders are that in-progress development will continue, and new development will occur, when the economy rebounds (and possibly now that the new Points system will stimulate investment in existing resorts?)

They really did hit the perfect storm between the economy and the fact that the resorts in development at the time were a new tier of higher quality/priced offerings - Marco Island, Oceana Palms, etc.  I don't think they expected those to sell at quite the same rate that the older resorts had, knowing that the target demographic was more limited.  But I also don't think that their development plans would have been quite so ambitious if they'd had use of a crystal ball.


----------



## wsrobinson

SDMiller said:


> Where is it on the Marriott website how many points it takes to do the "trips" ie Safari, etc.  We have not yet joined but are thinking about it for we have five weeks at different resorts.
> 
> SD



https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/2_global.jsp


----------



## wsrobinson

Numismatist said:


> Sometimes, as a Marriott timeshare buyer, I feel like these people...



That was hilarious!  I kept that one LOL


----------



## JimIg23

MikeZ said:


> Just got off the phone with Owner Services, and am now madder than ever!  After being put on hold for 16 minutes when I asked about the disparity in points given/points needed, the rep came back on and told me that he "didn't really get a good answer."  He told me that he has been asking the same question since he was initially trained and hasn't gotten any response.  I asked him why he thought they would do it, and he told me "probably to get you to buy more points!"  I love honesty, at least!
> 
> *He asked if I wanted to file an official complaint with his supervisor, as that may make a difference with enough people calling*.  After another wait, she came on and proceeded to insult my intelligence!  When I described my principal concern as not being able to trade like-for-like, she told me that has never been the case.  I gave her my trading history with my Waiohai unit, and she told me I MUST JUST BE LUCKY!
> 
> It went downhill after that....
> 
> She could not explain why a unit I am given 5075 points for will take 6125 for someone else to use, or what happens to those extra points.  All she kept saying was that "owners wanted more flexibility" and "owners hate dealing with Interval."
> 
> They both admitted thay they were both uncertain of how to deal with these questions, because they were told it wouldn't be a concern to us.  The concern definitely rolls uphill!



Making official complains will probably be the only way the people that actually can change this in Marriott hear this.  Calling a call rep that had nothing to do with creating the program and arguing the point isnt going to solve anything.  They all probably think its silly also.  After enough complaints that make it up the chain to upper management, maybe that will do something.


----------



## jerseygirl

James1975NY said:


> Lets use a Starwood example to compare this to. At the Sheraton Vistana Villages which is part of the Starwood Club they have a similar situation where an owner at the Sheraton Vistana Villages is given 67,100 "club point" for their unit type and season. They have access to a certain range of weeks which do not matter for this discussion.
> 
> SVO also realizes that other owners at other club resorts want to come into this resort for those said weeks. They may require 81,000 from an owner that does not own at the Sheraton Vistana Villages to book one of "those" weeks while still charging the owner of the home resort the 67,100 for the same weeks.
> 
> This is what is happening with the Marriott program as well and is not uncommong for points programs. It is basically a way to get more points burned from the books by requiring more points in and at the same time, not giving the home resort owner more points to go "out" with. It is a way to try to balance the program and work towards burning points.
> 
> It is very likely that you will see the points requirements change from time to time as the program evolves but this is actually necessary for now to make sure that the program runs as whole as possible. They have the flexibility to make the program more efficient as time goes and they have a better understand of what to expect from owner usage.
> 
> So for now....."outside" owner burns more for the same week than the "home" resort owner would, but the "home" resort owner does not have as many points to play with if they should elect to book another resort in the club.
> 
> Nature of a new points program.



I don't believe this is accurate.  The Sheraton Vistana Villages owner receives 67,100 StarOptions ("points") if they own a _low-season_ 2-bedroom unit (weeks 1-5, 18-22, 35-38, 48-50).  It costs exactly 67,100 points for all Starwood members to trade into those same weeks (it takes 81000 StarOptions to trade into high season weeks, and owners of those high season weeks receive 81000 StarOptions).  Points in = points out for Starwood Vacation Network internal trades (see below for an exception) -- there is no "skimming" involved.

Exception -- some of the older "pre-Starwood" Vistana Resort phases were sold as "float 1-52."  These weeks were initially not part of the Starwood Vacation Network, but were invited to join after owners paid hefty special assessments to bring the units up to SVN standards.  The newer Orlando resort (Sheraton Vistana Villages) was sold with two seasons, so Starwood had to come up with a way to "equalize" the two properties.  They employed an "averaging" methodology similar to the one Marriott is using for the older, 1-52 float resort, and owners who chose to join the network were given 76,000 StarOptions, while trades in require 67,100 (low season) and 81,000 (high season).   But, the 76,000 represents an average of all the low and high season weeks.  So, although it's an exception to the "points in = points out" rule, there is still no skimming involved.  

Believe me, Starwood is kicking itself for not coming up with the skimming scheme -- but it's important to note that even they don't do it at the present time.


----------



## pfrank4127

Talked to my  Marriott guide today, she is typically pretty honest.  Her explanation of the "skim"  is the increased points to stay at resorts reflects what Marriott now feels is the fair price to stay at the resorts.  So that when they sell the new point packages people can buy the correct number of points that now reflect the true price of the resort.  When I asked how this was "fair" to old week members, she responded that you still can use your week as always.  The other thing that she said was "we told people for well over a year we have discounted pricing going on and they should buy know because prices are going up."  It was an interesting conversation.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Except that, while I generally respect his opinions, John's logic is flawed here. He has mistakenly assumed that Marriott fairly allotted the average value for each season to owners. There may be some cases where this is so, but there are MANY instances where Marirott allotted less points than required to book ANY week in the owned season. There is no way to argue that that us equitable.


None of us have a way currently to double check the info.  The question at this point really isn't whether they gave each owner a fair number but rather did they assign the appropriate number of points at each resort and in total that will be used at the resorts.  A flexible system has losses in terms of orphaned days here and there.  Also, as many made the point on the pre-change thread, off season owners may actually more up more than high season owners try to move down.  It will be interesting to see the II and other required accounting that some states require be done including FL.  Thus we should be able to get SOME additional info on the back end for the entire system I'd expect.



Numismatist said:


> This thread reads like a classic Kubler-Ross grief course:hysterical: :
> 
> (1) Denial:  I can't believe Marriott did this to us.
> (2) Anger:  This is ridiculous, I'm going to...
> (3) Bargaining:  If I join I still can still use my week can't I?
> (4) Depression:  Yeah, the new system really sucks...
> (5) Acceptance:  I guess joining is better than not joining...
> 
> <sorry> thought everyone might need a little humor!:rofl:


I think for many this is going to be completely accurate.  I'll likely be an easier sell than most because it favors both our situation and how we see using our Marriott's both as direct usage and to trade.  I'm willing to pay a premium in points for a guaranteed booking rather than waiting for a trade, esp since the next fee structure will also save us several hundred $$$ a year overall, I'm guessing between $500 and $600 in savings.


----------



## ilene13

*Marriott Destination Points*

I spoke to a "counselor" for over an hour Sunday about the new destination point system. He said that for someone like me, we usually go to our home resorts, that the destination point system probably would not be worth joining.  My question is:  We book at the Aruba Ocean Club for wks 51 and 52 annually.  I own 3 weeks so I book wks 50-51.  Will I now be in competition with someone who is multiple week owner in someplace like Branson, who has a lot of points and wants to go to Aruba?  I pay a huge maintenance fee for Aruba and I would not like to have to compete with other owners from resorts that are not as valuable.  It does not seem too fair to me.  Anyone have any thoughts?


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## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## mightywyrm

pfrank4127 said:


> Talked to my  Marriott guide today, she is typically pretty honest.  Her explanation of the "skim"  is the increased points to stay at resorts reflects what Marriott now feels is the fair price to stay at the resorts.  So that when they sell the new point packages people can buy the correct number of points that now reflect the true price of the resort.  When I asked how this was "fair" to old week members, she responded that you still can use your week as always.  The other thing that she said was "we told people for well over a year we have discounted pricing going on and they should buy know because prices are going up."  It was an interesting conversation.



I'm glad she was honest enough to give you a straight answer.  However, she couldn't address the point that even if you bought a second week, neither of your weeks could garner an equal trade.  So, yes, *now *you realize that you could've gotten another week and thus have more than enough points to trade for, say, 1.8 or 1.9 equivalent weeks.  

Lovely.

They *always* say something to the effect that "now is the time to buy".  If _this time_ they really meant it, they should've explained _*why*_, rather than springing this set of changes on us.  They did *NOT *deal with their customer base in an open and honest way.

It's not that prices are went up, it's that _*values went down*_.  They're _*using *_the system to deny things you could formerly do.  That's not value creation, it's exploitation of people who they have put over a barrel.  

The fact that they're asking for blind faith to trust them _*completely *_in their new points contracts is quite the outrageous power grab.  I've never seen anything like it in any contract I've ever drafted or signed, short of a medical release (go ahead and kill me, I'm in your hands).

I'd love to hear that former Disney exec whose work product this supposedly is, come out of the shadows and justify his value proposition.  (Maybe he was that shuttle bus driver who said that Marriott and Disney were going to merge their timeshare operations.)

ps - this is not intended to offend anyone who may see value in the new program, as I can see how in some scenarios (perhaps even my own) this could still be a reasonable decision to buy.  For most people, however, the options available and various of the takeaways in the new program, represent a very poor value relative to what was available a few days ago.


----------



## Asia2000

ilene13 said:


> I spoke to a "counselor" for over an hour Sunday about the new destination point system. He said that for someone like me, we usually go to our home resorts, that the destination point system probably would not be worth joining.  My question is:  We book at the Aruba Ocean Club for wks 51 and 52 annually.  I own 3 weeks so I book wks 50-51.  Will I now be in competition with someone who is multiple week owner in someplace like Branson, who has a lot of points and wants to go to Aruba?  I pay a huge maintenance fee for Aruba and I would not like to have to compete with other owners from resorts that are not as valuable.  It does not seem too fair to me.  Anyone have any thoughts?



ilene,

This is just one person's opinion.  Stick with what works.  There is another thread going that Marriott is only selling from a trust of 11 resorts for the points program.  I believe Aruba is not one of the 11 (ie. they are sold out) What this means is if people do not give up their week via the points program (or II), inventory is not going to be available.  If you always stay at your home resort (or even most of the time), stay put and do not get swallowed up in the hype.


----------



## Dean

Slakk said:


> Dean after today I firmly believe the inmates ARE running the asylum.  I went online yesterday and one of my resorts had a GREAT point value - so good that I in fact called them to make sure it was legit.  I was told yes.  So I enrolled immediately and got a confirmation.
> 
> Today I logged in (because I am traveling in a couple weeks and wanted to fill out my preference sheet) and somehow I *lost* 1775 points.  I immediately called and at first was told I just needed better educating on the system and I never had those 1775 points then when I was able to produce an email confirming enrollment that included those 1775 points they said they would research and get back to me.  No word.
> 
> Now tonight I logged in to show my husband miraculously 300 of those points showed back up.  From DVC we know that a resort is supposed to be worth X points and then it is split up, right now it seems to me like Marriott is using a Magic 8 ball to determine values.
> 
> Now I am off to put my STILL missing 1475 points on a milk carton!


To me it's usual for new computer related roll outs to go as such, doesn't seem too out of the ordinary for me.  I'm sure they'll let you out of it and decide later given the circumstances but they are not going to give you the incorrect points year after year no matter waht.  They might give you a few extra bonus points for this coming year if you stay in now.  However, I do think it's nuts to do it the way they have.  If you want to reallocate the points with this move, just average them so at least it evens out across a given resort for the year.  Even then not everyone is happy but at least they should be able to understand it, this spread has everyone scratching their head.  Can't compare to DVC, they've gone too far the other way.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> That's how I'm thinking it will work because an owner who enrolls into the Points system does not have to declare his/her usage option until s/he calls in to make a reservation.  So yes, I think all Points inventory, whether it's from existing Developer inventory, Weeks inventory exchanged for MRP, Weeks inventory given to the Rental Program, Enrolled Points or Club Points, will be available to all Points owners on a first-come-first-serve basis.  Of course Marriott will have to satisfy all of the contractual stipulations for 13- and 12-mo inventory controls as well as Weeks/Points percentages of owners, but I think the separation of inventory will be done as reservations are made and not prior to the reservation windows.
> 
> So if there are 10 available intervals and 5 owners of those intervals did not enroll in Points, those 5 owners will be guaranteed a week in their season if they follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures of the Weeks system - no Points owner can reserve those 5 Weeks intervals.  But it doesn't matter that the 5 remaining available intervals are owned by Enrolled Points owners who have the ability to book the intervals as weeks under the Weeks system - those owners do not have a Weeks reservation priority over any other Points owner and will be subject to the first-come-first-serve basis.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I'm basing this on the things that were discussed in that speculation thread and the little bit of contract language that I've reviewed.



For what it's worth, I was specifically told the opposite- that converted weeks owners who elected to trade in weeks for the year would be grouped with other week owners and the inventory pools are absolutely separate and each available reservation opportunity (week/day/unit) reflects their proportionate share of ownership. So, if 25% of owners convert to points for a given year, then 25% of each reservation opportunity will be allotted to points reservations and 75% to weeks reservations, with the same 50/50 13/12 month split for each group as previously.


----------



## Asia2000

mightywyrm said:


> I'm glad she was honest enough to give you a straight answer.  However, she couldn't address the point that even if you bought a second week, neither of your weeks could garner an equal trade.  So, yes, *now *you realize that you could've gotten another week and thus have more than enough points to trade for, say, 1.8 or 1.9 equivalent weeks.
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> They *always* say something to the effect that "now is the time to buy".  If _this time_ they really meant it, they should've explained _*why*_, rather than springing this set of changes on us.  They did *NOT *deal with their customer base in an open and honest way.
> 
> It's not that prices are went up, it's that _*values went down*_.  They're _*using *_the system to deny things you could formerly do.  That's not value creation, it's exploitation of people who they have put over a barrel.
> 
> The fact that they're asking for blind faith to trust them _*completely *_in their new points contracts is quite the outrageous power grab.  I've never seen anything like it in any contract I've ever drafted or signed, short of a medical release (go ahead and kill me, I'm in your hands).
> 
> I'd love to hear that former Disney exec whose work product this supposedly is, come out of the shadows and justify his value proposition.  (Maybe he was that shuttle bus driver who said that Marriott and Disney were going to merge their timeshare operations.)
> 
> ps - this is not intended to offend anyone who may see value in the new program, as I can see how in some scenarios (perhaps even my own) this could still be a reasonable decision to buy.  For most people, however, the options available and various of the takeaways in the new program, represent a very poor value relative to what was available a few days ago.



Yes, you hit the nail on the head.  This is what I thought most people would be posting.  For many, I think they are joining out of fear and the idea that if you spend more money, it has to be better.  They are accepting mediocrity.   

The people who are receiving higher values for their weeks than what is required to stay are Marriott's favorite weeks and resorts.  They need inventory at these resorts, so they are using a few extra points as bait.  Most everyone else will need to buy more points to keep "the base" of what they had in addition to losing all of the upgrade possibilities and possible flexchanges.


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I think so, but like I said I'm not sure.  It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out before I make the commitment.
> 
> It is true that if you enroll in Points then the option to reserve at your home resort doesn't change - you will still have the deeded right to reserve the interval on your existing Weeks deed.  But that right is "subject to availability" and it appears that because Enrolled Weeks owners do not have a reservation priority for their home resort use over Enrolled Points owners of other resorts or Club Points owners, then their Enrolled Weeks intervals will be spread across all Points owners according to their tiered Reservation Procedures, and "subject to availability" will become a much larger factor at all resorts where intervals are held by any Points owners.
> 
> I can't find anything that says Marriott must hold back Weeks inventory for ALL Weeks owners including Enrolled Points owners until they've declared their usage intention for a particular year.  The Weeks owners who do not enroll are protected by their contracts from Marriott releasing their inventory to Points owners prior to whatever point Marriott can pick up intervals (at most resorts, that mark is 75 days prior to check-in.)  I don't see anything in the Enrolled Points contracts, so far, that leads me to believe they have the same protections; I think that by signing the contract for Enrollment, they're accepting the terms of Points inventory.  I think.  I hope one of the lawyers here can tell me where I'm wrong, or that Marriott will answer the question definitively.



That's a really good question- since don't you have until Sept. 30th of the year preceding use to declare intent to convert to points, but people are actually booking already for 9 or 10 months. That might be a gaping loohole 


sorry- see you addressed this a few pages back- should have caught up before commenting


----------



## dioxide45

Why does Marriott get to re-exchange II exchanges? We can't do it


----------



## JimIg23

I have been number crunching.   Although I dont like that my NCV week is nowhere near close to what it take to book a summer NCV, that in itself does not bother me too much because when I want to go there, I will book my deeded week.  

What I have been crunching is the numbers compared to trades during the times I go, which is always summer. I am also assuming that an II trade will get me the least view (GV or OS)...  I am doing that because most posts I see (and trades I have gotten) have not been for the best views. 

So, my NCV and MHZ EOY are worth 6025 together for two years, lets say 3000 points per year with banking to balance the 2 years.

This is what I can reserve for the points for those two years in the summer (the ones I would go to):

Ocean Point OS, 2950
Ocean Palm OS, 2950
Surf Club GV, 2950
St Kitts, 2700
Frenchman's Cove 2975
Manor Club 2950
Ocean Watch (3450: I would need to do a 6 day the other year)

I excluded Orlando, I can use mine or get a getaway.  Now, the main question will be if I deposit into points, will I be able to get these weeks thru the points system?

Do I want big upgrades?  Yes of course.  I am trying to get two HI summer weeks for 2011 in the summer thru II and can do that still I think when I want to see if I can get lucky..  II is a lot of luck for timing, view, etc, and most of us know that.   I am still going to wait because there are too many issues that need to be answered (II access for week trades, availability of point trades)  But honestly, for the price I got my weeks resale, those points trades are not that bad as an alternate way to trade.


----------



## Venter

*Thousands of posts and need some advice*

Could somebody please paste the text from the website etc that states if you do not join then you will not have access to new resorts.  Also that II will have less inventory.

I am European and US owner and will not join a it will cost me more simply because I will have to continue with a seperate II account for my Club Son Antem week.

I feel my ownership has been completely devalued because if the above statements are true and documented I would not have access to internal trades as before. 

I would like to take these things to my sales rep and see what she has to say about me being screwed in such a way.


----------



## mightywyrm

dioxide45 said:


> Why does Marriott get to re-exchange II exchanges? We can't do it



I believe this is because we're just individual customers, while they are some combination of major client, investor, and/or primary business partner.


*col·lu·sion*
   /kəˈluʒən/ Show Spelled[kuh-loo-zhuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. a secret agreement, esp. for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.
2. Law . a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement: collusion of husband and wife to obtain a divorce.

*Edit*:  I am not asserting that anything technically illegal has occurred.


----------



## Y-ASK

I decided to enroll and was told that they've had over 800 owners enroll since the e-mails went out.  I didn't get the e-mail but they didn't need to know that .  Guess I'll see if I'm happy with the system or not in a few years.  Paid $1495.00 and got back $207 from II.

Y-ASK


----------



## wsrobinson

Dean said:


> To me it's usual for new computer related roll outs to go as such, doesn't seem too out of the ordinary for me.  I'm sure they'll let you out of it and decide later given the circumstances but they are not going to give you the incorrect points year after year no matter waht.  They might give you a few extra bonus points for this coming year if you stay in now.  However, I do think it's nuts to do it the way they have.  If you want to reallocate the points with this move, just average them so at least it evens out across a given resort for the year.  Even then not everyone is happy but at least they should be able to understand it, this spread has everyone scratching their head.  Can't compare to DVC, they've gone too far the other way.



Please understand mistakes happen, how would it be remotely possible or fair for someone to jump on a mistake (I could make the sam claim as mine were originally 5750 and were revised downward to 4200) and claim the mistaken points should be theirs?  What if they revised everyone but Slakk?  I sincerely hope they didn't give Slakk 300 points to appease him.  If that's the case I'm raising holy heck. Bottom line mistakes happen.  Our society has gone overboard always thinking someone should get something for nothing.


----------



## Asia2000

Venter said:


> Could somebody please paste the text from the website etc that states if you do not join then you will not have access to new resorts.  Also that II will have less inventory.
> 
> I am European and US owner and will not join a it will cost me more simply because I will have to continue with a seperate II account for my Club Son Antem week.
> 
> I feel my ownership has been completely devalued because if the above statements are true and documented I would not have access to internal trades as before.
> 
> I would like to take these things to my sales rep and see what she has to say about me being screwed in such a way.



No documents have been posted on this (not being able to join new resorts or that II will have less inventory).  Regarding inventory, read through this  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124444

Do not join out of fear or the idea of spending more will give you more.  Only join on logic.


----------



## wsrobinson

Y-ASK said:


> I decided to enroll and was told that they've had over 800 owners enroll since the e-mails went out.  I didn't get the e-mail but they didn't need to know that .  Guess I'll see if I'm happy with the system or not in a few years.  Paid $1495.00 and got back $207 from II.
> 
> Y-ASK



800 out of 400000 or 0.002 pct.


----------



## dioxide45

Venter said:


> Could somebody please paste the text from the website etc that states if you do not join then you will not have access to new resorts.  Also that II will have less inventory.



There isn't any. An in fact when resorts are first built, Marriott will have no choice to deposit excess inventory in to II. They will have a lot of empty units if they don't. The new system isn't going to magically increase demand all of a sudden. They also rely on those bulk deposits for new sales prospects.


----------



## NJDave

There is too much conflicting information.  It would be great if a Marriott representative would answer some questions on this board like we once had with Interval and RCI.

Anyone have any connections to try to line this up?


----------



## saturn28

Y-ASK said:


> I decided to enroll and was told that they've had over 800 owners enroll since the e-mails went out.  I didn't get the e-mail but they didn't need to know that .  Guess I'll see if I'm happy with the system or not in a few years.  Paid $1495.00 and got back $207 from II.
> 
> Y-ASK



Oh really. In another thread someone that toured today was told by their sales person that 86% of Marriott weeks owners have already joined the new destination points system and 35% of those owners purchased points. That is an amazing rate. Expeically when you consider the program was roled out yesterday.


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> For what it's worth, I was specifically told the opposite- that converted weeks owners who elected to trade in weeks for the year would be grouped with other week owners and the inventory pools are absolutely separate and each available reservation opportunity (week/day/unit) reflects their proportionate share of ownership. So, if 25% of owners convert to points for a given year, then 25% of each reservation opportunity will be allotted to points reservations and 75% to weeks reservations, with the same 50/50 13/12 month split for each group as previously.



Got it, m.  You'll find me screaming from the rooftops a few posts later.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> That's a really good question- since don't you have until Sept. 30th of the year preceding use to declare intent to convert to points, but people are actually booking already for 9 or 10 months. That might be a gaping loohole
> 
> 
> sorry- see you addressed this a few pages back- should have caught up before commenting



Ha!  We're tripping all over each other!  :hysterical:


----------



## wsrobinson

Slakk said:


> Hang on.  I looked at the enrollment, saw a point value, liked it, called Marriott for confirmation on the point value and then PAID them for it and got a confirmation with that amount listed.  I did not get something for nothing I have no idea if this number has changed more than the 3 numbers I have seen.
> 
> This has nothing to do with society - it has to do with Marriott offering me something, me agreeing to the terms, them confirming the deal then without notice or explanation changing the terms.
> 
> I guess you think it would be fine if I advertised my BMW for sale and you contacted me and we agreed to the price and I confirmed a sale and then sent you a little red wagon.
> 
> If that's the case, want to buy a BMW?  :hysterical:



I liked mine too!!! Heck I was ecstatic but I had an idea mine was wrong because Sue said her point value at the same resort with the same view (but 3 bedroom) had the same point value as mine.  I could call them up and raise a fuss that I "deserve" the higher value but its WRONG.  They made a simple mistake (one they rectified since).

A more apt example in this case, a car dealer lists the BMW for 59999 but is printed as 599.99.  I guess you show up making a stink demanding the car for that???


----------



## Dean

Slakk said:


> Hang on.  I looked at the enrollment, saw a point value, liked it, called Marriott for confirmation on the point value and then PAID them for it and got a confirmation with that amount listed.  I did not get something for nothing I have no idea if this number has changed more than the 3 numbers I have seen.
> 
> This has nothing to do with society - it has to do with Marriott offering me something, me agreeing to the terms, them confirming the deal then without notice or explanation changing the terms.
> 
> I guess you think it would be fine if I advertised my BMW for sale and you contacted me and we agreed to the price and I confirmed a sale and then sent you a little red wagon.
> 
> If that's the case, want to buy a BMW?  :hysterical:


But if you listed it for sale and the add came out the wrong price, off by a decimal point in favor of the buyer, would you go through with the deal at 10% the advertised price?  I'd bet no.  



Slakk said:


> Since I work in eComm I can tell you that it is NOT usual to QA a system like this and have these type of errors.  If my team did this type of project I  would have been FIRED.


Our experiences are different plus while this may be a major deal to you, it's really a minor issue overall.


----------



## floyddl

Slakk said:


> Hang on.  I looked at the enrollment, saw a point value, liked it, called Marriott for confirmation on the point value and then PAID them for it and got a confirmation with that amount listed.  I did not get something for nothing I have no idea if this number has changed more than the 3 numbers I have seen.
> 
> This has nothing to do with society - it has to do with Marriott offering me something, me agreeing to the terms, them confirming the deal then without notice or explanation changing the terms.
> 
> I guess you think it would be fine if I advertised my BMW for sale and you contacted me and we agreed to the price and I confirmed a sale and then sent you a little red wagon.
> 
> If that's the case, want to buy a BMW?  :hysterical:



I don't blame you one bit.  It is troubling though that MVCI will authorize an override of the stated program values for a particular owner.  It might have been more appropriate if they offered some form of compensation for the mistake that didn't involve an exception on the point values.  If they do it here one can only wonder how many others exist.


----------



## dioxide45

saturn28 said:


> Oh really. In another thread someone that toured today was told by their sales person that 86% of Marriott weeks owners have already joined the new destination points system and 35% of those owners purchased points. That is an amazing rate. Expeically when you consider the program was roled out yesterday.



And no official communication. I would be surprise if 86% of owners actually even know about it yet.


----------



## wsrobinson

floyddl said:


> I don't blame you one bit.  It is troubling though that MVCI will authorize an override of the stated program values for a particular owner.  It might have been more appropriate if they offered some form of compensation for the mistake that didn't involve an exception on the point values.  If they do it here one can only wonder how many others exist.



Exactly my point.  Not really fair to the rest if us (and I could have done it too!)


----------



## SueDonJ

wsrobinson said:


> I liked mine too!!! Heck I was ecstatic but I had an idea mine was wrong because Sue said her point value at the same resort with the same view (but 3 bedroom) had the same point value as mine.  I could call them up and raise a fuss that I "deserve" the higher value but its WRONG.  They made a simple mistake (one they rectified since).
> 
> A more apt example in this case, a car dealer lists the BMW for 59999 but is printed as 599.99.  I guess you show up making a stink demanding the car for that???



I'd like it, too, if you did that because then I could call them and be a screaming banshee demanding more than you!  And everybody else who owns a 3BR at SW could call up after me demanding more!  Can't you hear it, every succeeding call getting louder and louder and pretty soon Marriott has no more points for anyone all because you raised a ruckus!   

Slakk, I'm not making light of your situation.  I told you in another post that I'd hate to be in your shoes and can understand your frustration.  But you never answered my question - if Marriott had given you first LESS points than were supposed to be allotted to you because of a computer glitch, would you expect them to honor the incorrect amount or make the correction?


----------



## jjluhman

Ok, I am trying to read through the legal documentation on the MVCI website.  I am not a lawyer and I am confused! 

Can anyone explain this paragraph to me???  Are they saying that they can allow other TS Programs (DVC etc)book our resorts through their program if they decide to do so?  I hope that I am understanding this incorrectly.

J.
Affiliate Program Reservation System Operations. Exchange Company will, from time to time, operate and manage reservation systems or exchange programs for other vacation ownership programs and facilitate usage by members of such programs, in addition to operation of the exchange facilities and related services in the Program. When providing reservation services for another program, which is also an Affiliate Program, Exchange Company shall provide the reservation services and exchange services in a manner consistent with the applicable Affiliation Agreement and the applicable Affiliate Program Reservation Procedures. The Affiliate Program Reservation Systems may vary and have priority windows or reservation restrictions that are different from those of the Program or other Affiliate Programs. In such cases, Exchange


----------



## dioxide45

jjluhman said:


> Ok, I am trying to read through the legal documentation on the MVCI website.  I am not a lawyer and I am confused!
> 
> Can anyone explain this paragraph to me???  Are they saying that they can allow other TS Programs (DVC etc)book our resorts through their program if they decide to do so?  I hope that I am understanding this incorrectly.
> 
> J.
> Affiliate Program Reservation System Operations. Exchange Company will, from time to time, operate and manage reservation systems or exchange programs for other vacation ownership programs and facilitate usage by members of such programs, in addition to operation of the exchange facilities and related services in the Program. When providing reservation services for another program, which is also an Affiliate Program, Exchange Company shall provide the reservation services and exchange services in a manner consistent with the applicable Affiliation Agreement and the applicable Affiliate Program Reservation Procedures. The Affiliate Program Reservation Systems may vary and have priority windows or reservation restrictions that are different from those of the Program or other Affiliate Programs. In such cases, Exchange



I think the Affiliate Program is the new trust.


----------



## Asia2000

NJDave said:


> There is too much conflicting information.  It would be great if a Marriott representative would answer some questions on this board like we once had with Interval and RCI.
> 
> Anyone have any connections to try to line this up?



It is called smoke and mirrors.  The details are either not available or are vaguely written in the fine print.  Even the lawyers on TUG are having difficulty interpreting it.  In the end, it is the sales rep that puts you on hold to get the answer which is the reason behind conflicting information.  Besides, being uninformed requires you to call Marriott one more time, which allows them to sell you one more time on the program.  It is a classic sales tactic.

If you have until the end of the year to make a move, take your time.  My suggestion is to wait and let all of the details surface, in print, and then you can make your decision on logic.  Not on hype or fear or the idea that spending more money will give you more.  Marriott wants people to "give up" by joining, thereby releasing the owner's unit to inventory and the owner thereby being involved in mediocre program which will require more future spending with a higher MF.  Yes, you might save a couple of hundos on II fees, but what are you giving up to get that savings?  

Best of luck.


----------



## wuv pooh

*Remember who the customer is*

I think what most people forget is that most Marriott customers are not Tuggers.  There are 400,000 plus Marriott owners and only 43,000 tuggers.  In fact most tuggers think that Marriott owners are crazy and spend way too much for the Marriott 'experience'   Maybe a few hundred active here and this is peak usage  and maybe 10x that as casual users.

Before people crucify the Marriott marketing team, try to think about their true customers:

1. They are older and probably less tech savvy.  Don't like spending hours searching II inventory on line. Don't care about 1,000 post Tug threads.

2. They bought Marriott instead of a second house and may have 50-100k invested in the system.

3. They hate II because of #1 and because they don't like giving up something to potentially get something.  If they trade they give up their view they paid a premium for.  They pay a lot of fees, etc.  They allow Marriott to pick the week to deposit because the trust them and II does not give them the value. They would rather talk to a counselor and have a relationship.

4. They are successful and busy. Sometimes it is hard to get away for a full seven days.  They will never run a rental business and don't troll red week/craigs list to get "deals" $1,000 is a nit to them.

5. They are the people who are screwed on the other side of the trade that Tuggers enjoy.  They give their Hawaii week to their son who trades it to Orlando  They deposit Grande Ocean for points because they can't get away for a full week  

6. They use Marriott hotels and actually often trade for MR points because it allows them to vacation in short intervals like they are able.  Most Tuggers think this is stupid.

7. They like Marriott and trust them.  Most Tuggers also think this is stupid.

For these people a 7% skim is meaningless vs. actually getting to use their investment in a more efficient manner.  They can now:

1. Use partial weeks
2. Trade some of their week for nights and other for MR points
3. Trade down and still have points left over to convert to MR points
4. Trade for the view that they want
5. Not have to deal with II or computers, but have a trusted person to call
6. Only pay one fee vs. getting nickeled and dimed
7. They now see that their resorts truly are worth more, and don't get the dregs left over from II.

These are the people Marriott wants to make happy and who they have responded to, not Tuggers.  Most don't have a clue about the points system and will see it as a big improvement.  When they get the email they will call and convert.

And it was actually pretty slick.  You can enroll and as a bonus you get 800 points.  However, 800 points is not enough to go anywhere so why not convert your weeks and see how it works.  If you don't like it you can always keep things the way they are.  Most people will 'invest' $700 to protect a $100k investment.

There is plenty of inventory in Oceana Palms, Marco Island, Hawaii, Lakeshore Reserve with the Ritz, etc.  Lots of high class resorts and nice opportunities for short get aways if you have the points and means.  Lots of new cruises, experiences, etc.

When these people convert to 'test drive' the system the inventory in the points system will increase which will make more opportunities which will lead to more conversions which will create momentum that will make the system successful.

Marriott got burned because home equity dried up and because they extended too much credit to second tier customers.  I think they are going upscale for MCVI and downscaling the Ritz program and shooting directly for high net worth baby boomers.

Time will tell, but I think the system will be a big success.  I plan on enrolling and test driving it to keep my options open and help make it a success.  I can always withdraw if I think it is in my best interest.


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## wsrobinson

wuv pooh said:


> I think what most people forget is that most Marriott customers are not Tuggers.  There are 400,000 plus Marriott owners and only 43,000 tuggers.  In fact most tuggers think that Marriott owners are crazy and spend way too much for the Marriott 'experience'   Maybe a few hundred active here and this is peak usage  and maybe 10x that as casual users.
> 
> Before people crucify the Marriott marketing team, try to think about their true customers:
> 
> 1. They are older and probably less tech savvy.  Don't like spending hours searching II inventory on line. Don't care about 1,000 post Tug threads.
> 
> 2. They bought Marriott instead of a second house and may have 50-100k invested in the system.
> 
> 3. They hate II because of #1 and because they don't like giving up something to potentially get something.  If they trade they give up their view they paid a premium for.  They pay a lot of fees, etc.  They allow Marriott to pick the week to deposit because the trust them and II does not give them the value. They would rather talk to a counselor and have a relationship.
> 
> 4. They are successful and busy. Sometimes it is hard to get away for a full seven days.  They will never run a rental business and don't troll red week/craigs list to get "deals" $1,000 is a nit to them.
> 
> 5. They are the people who are screwed on the other side of the trade that Tuggers enjoy.  They give their Hawaii week to their son who trades it to Orlando  They deposit Grande Ocean for points because they can't get away for a full week
> 
> 6. They use Marriott hotels and actually often trade for MR points because it allows them to vacation in short intervals like they are able.  Most Tuggers think this is stupid.
> 
> 7. They like Marriott and trust them.  Most Tuggers also think this is stupid.
> 
> For these people a 7% skim is meaningless vs. actually getting to use their investment in a more efficient manner.  They can now:
> 
> 1. Use partial weeks
> 2. Trade some of their week for nights and other for MR points
> 3. Trade down and still have points left over to convert to MR points
> 4. Trade for the view that they want
> 5. Not have to deal with II or computers, but have a trusted person to call
> 6. Only pay one fee vs. getting nickeled and dimed
> 7. They now see that their resorts truly are worth more, and don't get the dregs left over from II.
> 
> These are the people Marriott wants to make happy and who they have responded to, not Tuggers.  Most don't have a clue about the points system and will see it as a big improvement.  When they get the email they will call and convert.
> 
> And it was actually pretty slick.  You can enroll and as a bonus you get 800 points.  However, 800 points is not enough to go anywhere so why not convert your weeks and see how it works.  If you don't like it you can always keep things the way they are.  Most people will 'invest' $700 to protect a $100k investment.
> 
> There is plenty of invetory in Oceana Palms, Marco Island, Hawaii, Lakeshore Reserve with the Ritz, etc.  Lots of high class resorts and nice opportunities for short get aways if you have the points and means.  Lots of new cruises, experiences, etc.
> 
> When these people convert to 'test drive' the system the inventory in the points system will increase which will make more opportunities which will lead to more conversions which will create momentum that will make the system successful.
> 
> Marriott got burned because home equity dried up and because they extended too much credit to second tier customers.  I think they are going upscale for MCVI and downscaling the Ritz program and shooting directly for high net worth baby boomers.
> 
> Time will tell, but I think the system will be a big success.



How do you know my parents???


----------



## UK Fan

wa.mama said:


> As I see it, the ball is in our court.  "OUR" meaning the collective group of deeded weeks marriott owners, resale or not.  To get the ball rolling, Marriott needs a significant number of owners to join AND convert their units into points.  This may be the only time owners have such a significant say in the future of a marriott program.



I certainly see what you are saying and I fully intend on speaking with as many owners as possible at OceanWatch next week.


----------



## eileenpat

*Confusion?*

After speaking with 4 different reps, I received 4 different answers.  Christine the rep, who seemed to be the most knowledgeable, ask for an "expert" to join the line because she was unsure of some of her answerers.  This expert turned out to be a sales rep., to whom I had spoken with when considering buying resale through Marriott.  This "expert" was a total sales pitch and was corrected numerous times by Christine!

Bottom line:  Marriott has lost my trust.  I am not really sure that they (Marriott) actually understand the program.  As has been said, they have not handled this well.

By the way, upon contacting a friend who works with II, she said that they will be cut out of the loop if not trading outside of Marriott.  They are not happy with Marriott.

To date I still do not have an e-mail.  I was told that they would be coming out in the next few months!  In addition, if one bought resale outside of Marriott, you are being penalized, at least financially.

Referencing a recent thread, per my stated experts, points must be used within a certain period of time or you loose them.  Suppose you cannot get into a resort that you want to vacation at?  Also, she said that one cannot "trade" points among owners.  You get to use up to 2 years of YOUR points or they are gone!

Bottom line:  Why would I trust Marriott to run a program that has so many caveats?  They could not handle copying my name correctly from my deed to their data base!!  Told me that the system does not take hyphenated names ...funny, I have correspondence that says it was corrected! So basically the right hand does not seem to know what the left is doing!  And I am to believe that they can handle this program?

We, as many, have a great deal of money invested in our 3 weeks.  We love our vacations, and I realize that Marriott is a for profit company.  But why do I feel that this is similar to the housing market conundrum?  I agree with the point system in its pure form, but the hidden control that seems to give Marriott all the advantages is very unsettling.

We will wait until the last minute to decide if we want to join the new program.  By the way ........the sales rep said that "everyone was joining in record numbers..."  the other representative contradicted her and said only a few people had joined, most were calling with questions or concerns.

Good luck to all in making your decision.  I am a scientist, we need to have the facts before we decide.  Hopefully, we will have those facts before the deadline to join!  Thank you all for all your information.  It was more than we received from Marriott!


----------



## SueDonJ

wuv pooh said:


> I think what most people forget is that most Marriott customers are not Tuggers.  ...  Time will tell, but I think the system will be a big success.



This is an EXCELLENT post - very well said!


----------



## tlwmkw

I was the one who took the tour at Surfwatch today and quoted the rep saying 86 per cent of weeks owners had joined, but it was owners who had toured not all owners. I also said  I didn't believe him. He also said 35 per cent bought more points when they toured. I thought that was even less likely to be true. The guy seemed very lost at many of my questions. He was a BS'er. He also said that a couple who bought a garden view some years ago had bought 2250 points to "upgrade" to oceanfront because they regretted buying GV. That made me so sad because as of now there are no ocean front units in the trust and the weeks are all sold so how will these poor people get what is't available using " homeless stepchild" points? They will learn when they try to book  I guess.

tlwmkw


----------



## mightywyrm

*Collateralized VACATION obligation (CVO)*

This may be a bit funny to anyone who recalls the CDOs (Collateralized Debt Obligations) that contributed the the mortgage crisis and overall economic malaise we've had for the past couple of years.  There are enough similarities with Marriott's new product that I might start calling it CVO.

I like this term to describe the points program because Marriott has not focused on value creation.  Instead, they have abstracted their underlying undesirable inventory behind points, and mechanisms that do such things as raiding II deposits, locking down up-trades, assigning values such that everyone is presented with tough choices if they want to continue to utilize the trading environment to which they've become accustomed, and the like.  

Most importantly, like others have said, their points contracts ask customers to _*accept the financial obligation*_ for whatever it is Marriott decides, _*while effectively delegating ownership *_to Marriott.  

I really don't see this as brilliant - it's more like, boldly freakin' assertive.

It's a party foul. 

Like others, I'm a little disturbed by this artificial - and cynical - approach to generating demand.  They've done a good, if blatant, job of exploiting a number of Marketing concepts.  I'm tempted to label it a play; a crafty, calculated gamble that has been carefully analyzed and determined to be likely to succeed (i.e., a takeover play).

The news that only 11 sites are actually in their Trust is potentially very alarming, too.  It's more evidence of reliance on smoke and mirrors, and the absolute necessity of raiding deposits blindly placed into II.  

As others have noted, the game has changed.  Although it's technically true that weeks owners can continue to _*use *_their week just as before, Marriott and II have made arrangements to reduce their _*outcomes*_.  Usage (i.e., deposit first, request first, search for Getaways) and results (i.e., what actually happens when you do these things) are very different things. 

It's clearer than ever before, that when a salesman emphatically tells you how things work, he's describing a black box that has lots of levers inside it that the principals (Marriott and II) can change on a whim, and he is in no way promising that it will continue to be that way.  Sometimes he's fair and honest, other times he's just trying to create misimpressions that we (willingly) would like to believe.

To be fair, I think Marriott has many good employees and offers great vacations.  They don't simply do reservations and clean toilets, as others have said.  They also develop and manage the resort network I've used many times and which I like (liked?).  However, they've gone "a bridge too far" (or two, or three) with this highly rigged system.


----------



## jimf41

tlwmkw said:


> I was the one who took the tour at Surfwatch today and quoted the rep saying 86 per cent of weeks owners had joined, but it was owners who had toured not all owners. I also said  I didn't believe him. He also said 35 per cent bought more points when they toured. I thought that was even less likely to be true. The guy seemed very lost at many of my questions. He was a BS'er. He also said that a couple who bought a garden view some years ago had bought 2250 points to "upgrade" to oceanfront because they regretted buying GV. That made me so sad because as of now there are no ocean front units in the trust and the weeks are all sold so how will these poor people get what is't available using " homeless stepchild" points? They will learn when they try to book  I guess.
> 
> tlwmkw



How could you possibly know what's in the trust for this resort or what will be in the trust. The fact that a resort is sold out has no bearing on whether a points owner can get a week on points at that resort. The rep said 86% of the owners who took the tour enrolled. I think that's a little wishful thinking myself but if only 1 owner enrolled and gives up his oceanfront week to points then that poor couple with their homeless stepchild points have what they paid for.


----------



## timeos2

*There will be some*



tlwmkw said:


> I was the one who took the tour at Surfwatch today and quoted the rep saying 86 per cent of weeks owners had joined, but it was owners who had toured not all owners. I also said  I didn't believe him. He also said 35 per cent bought more points when they toured. I thought that was even less likely to be true. The guy seemed very lost at many of my questions. He was a BS'er. He also said that a couple who bought a garden view some years ago had bought 2250 points to "upgrade" to oceanfront because they regretted buying GV. That made me so sad because as of now there are no ocean front units in the trust and the weeks are all sold so how will these poor people get what is't available using " homeless stepchild" points? They will learn when they try to book  I guess.
> 
> tlwmkw



If even one or more existing OF owners join the program then there is inventory for the points owners. I'll bet its far more than one that buys in. The newly "upgraded" buyer may not get it every request in the future but they will get it a few times and thats a few they didn't have a chance at before.


----------



## jimf41

mightywyrm said:


> The news that only 11 sites are actually in their Trust is potentially very alarming, too.  I



Why? Do you know what that means, I don't. I haven't seen anybody on TUG explain it although a lot of tuggers have expressed deep concern over it.

I do know that a weeks owner that doesn't enroll can reserve weeks at any of the 53 Marriott's in the system including those 11 trust owned. I also know that a points owner or an enrolled weeks owner using points can do the exact same thing. I also know that deeded weeks have been sold at all 11 of those trust based resorts so the trust doesn't own 100% of any of them.

Please explain your potential alarm. I don't understand it.


----------



## CapriciousC

I can see how the program is advantageous for some, but for us, it just doesn't work.  At first glance it seemed appealing, particularly when the website touted that we could "choose any Vacation Club resort," but that bit's not really accurate, is it?  All of the European resorts, as well as Phuket are excluded, and those are the resorts we'd be most interested in exchanging into.

It really seems to be a good deal for those who own on Hilton Head Island, though.  We don't own there, but we do live about half an hour away, so if it brings more people (and money) to Hilton Head and boosts the local economy, I'm all for it


----------



## timeos2

*II - Members? What's a stinkin' member? Let them be corporate*



mightywyrm said:


> I believe this is because we're just individual customers, while they are some combination of major client, investor, and/or primary business partner.
> 
> 
> *col·lu·sion*
> /kəˈluʒən/ Show Spelled[kuh-loo-zhuhn] Show IPA
> –noun
> 1. a secret agreement, esp. for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.
> 2. Law . a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement: collusion of husband and wife to obtain a divorce.
> 
> *Edit*:  I am not asserting that anything technically illegal has occurred.



II is the Queen Bee of custom crafted deals favoring any corporate client. No mere member ever matters if a corporate deal can be made. The amazing thing is that any exchange ever makes it to a paying II member. They are the lowest of the low in the pecking order.  Why anyone would pay to  belong to II is beyond me as when you hook up with a preferred corporate account they are often free and get you trades you'd never even sniff as a mere member.


----------



## ccpinternational

For Manor Club Platinum floating week, it shows that I can get 2375 pts. And on the points calendar, I need 2950 to reserve a full week for June3-Aug 25,2011.  That is 575pts in difference. If it is $9/pt, I have been ripped off for about $5000! WOW.


----------



## Asia2000

wuv pooh said:


> I think what most people forget is that most Marriott customers are not Tuggers.  There are 400,000 plus Marriott owners and only 43,000 tuggers.  In fact most tuggers think that Marriott owners are crazy and spend way too much for the Marriott 'experience'   Maybe a few hundred active here and this is peak usage  and maybe 10x that as casual users.
> 
> Before people crucify the Marriott marketing team, try to think about their true customers:



Wuv,

Very well stated.  I guess if it is a hobby, then you really do not mind going through II on your own.  Didn't the option exist before where you could have a representative handle everything for you?  Yes, you may save on a few fees with the new program, but the upgrades and flexchanges through II are worth the II fees in my mind.  But as you say, maybe not to others.

I would not label "successful people" as people who spend more to receive less.  However, I can see that many of the benefits stated in this program may be benefits to some and benefit removal for others.

In the end, point program members will have to spend more to get what they want.  Whether that is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## brianfox

Here's my 2 cents about this new system:

Marriott is moving to the system Disney has - points.
The problem is that current owners own a tangible asset of sorts - the right to a week at their home resort - and until now, owners never really had a concrete value to associate with their owned week.  Sure, the free-market system assigned a value to the resale of your week, and Marriott assigned a retail value, but the fact that we can exchange our seemingly worthless week for a prime week inflated the value of any resort that tends to be "traded up" from.

Now, the point system attempts to assign a really-for-real value to every resort.   Let's for a moment remove II from the equation.  Let's take a cold hard look at just the Marriott point-system in a vacuum.

Going forward, as I understand it - new Marriott customers will only buy points.  The cost right now appears to be $9.20 a point to buy and Maintenance Fees of $.40 per point.

I own the following weeks:
Platinum week at Desert Springs II = 2,900 points to me if I take points.
Silver week at Willow Ridge = 850 points to me if I take points

Let's see how they compare to the proposed point system:
I'm going to just use the points I would receive from Marriott as an owner for these calculations (not the points it would cost to stay that week):

Desert Springs - 2900 * $9.20 = $26680.  This is the "value" marriott is assigning to ownership of my Platinum week.  Bear with me if you want to argue this...

Willow Ridge - 850 points * $920 = $7820.

So am I suggesting my Willow Ridge Silver week is worth almost $8000?  Hardly, but Marriott seems to be saying that...  After all, buying 850 points annually would cost me $7820, and Marriott will give me 850 points annually for my Willow Ridge week.

What about the Maintenance Fees?  
I paid $1080 in 2010 for Desert Springs.  Point-wise, I paid $1080/2900= $0.372 per point -- slightly less than the $0.40 per point a new Marriott points-only customer would pay. 

I paid $780 in 2010 for Willow Ridge MF.  Point-wise, I paid $780/850=a staggering $0.917 per point.  To me, that is an indication that Marriott is assigning a higher point value to the resort than they believe it's worth.  


I purchased both of my weeks resale just a year ago, at a very good price.  My Desert Springs cost $6500, and Marriott will allow me to exchange for 2900 points annually if I become a member of their system.  Purchasing 2900 points today would cost about $20,000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points and the MF would be roughly the same.


My Willow Ridge cost $1000, and Marriott will allow me to exchenge for 850 points annually if I become a member.  Purchasing 850 points today would cost about $7000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points, but the MF would be about half of what I pay.

From that vacuum perspective, the Marriott system sounds like a great deal - especially if I want to always stay at my home resort, or are willing to exchange into a lesser-resort.

Where it goes extremely sour is when we want to "exchange up".  Until now, we could get great deals through II.  From almost any perspective, an exchange out of a winter Branson week is an exchange up - that's why I purchased it.  Any Flexchange I could get would most certainly be a great one.

Through the Marriott point system, the resort costs are laid out and appear to be inflexible.  There is no "Flexchange" discount for last minute vacations.  Both of my 2BR weeks combined would barely get a 1BR summer Hawaii week.  Is that the way it should be?  Is that reality?  If it is, then the Marriott point system is not for me. 

Many of us bought a Marriott because of the Lock-off option.  Most of us have consistently exchanged our Studio for a 1BR or 2BR in the same season during Flex, and still had our 1BR to exchange for something else - basically a free week for the cost of an exchange fee.  With the point system, that simply cannot happen any longer.  Were we "gaming" the Interval system by doing that?

Even so, why not just join and try it out, as Pooh keeps suggesting?  What could it hurt?  The worst case is that you have to figure out how to spend your free 800 point bonus, right?  I'm not convinced that is the case...

My big problem is that I'm still not certain what signing on the dotted line allows Marriott to do.  I keep reading that Marriott somehow is allowed to pull from the Interval pool as it desires.  Clearly, if they are allowed to raid the pool for the point-system use, II will die a quick death, and we will all be forced into the point system like-it-or-not.  If I do NOT join the point system and deposit my week into the II pool, how can Marriott possibly grab it?  What I do imagine is that if I DO join the point system, then that may give them the right to pull my II deposit out of the pool - and that is my fear.  

If in fact the act of signing up for the option of having points allows Marriott to sap the II pool, that is a very scary thing.  I want to know the answer to that one before I consider enrolling.


----------



## jjluhman

Brian- I think this is how Marriott can grab weeks from II for the Program.

Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.


----------



## brianfox

ccpinternational said:


> For Manor Club Platinum floating week, it shows that I can get 2375 pts. And on the points calendar, I need 2950 to reserve a full week for June3-Aug 25,2011.  That is 575pts in difference. If it is $9/pt, I have been ripped off for about $5000! WOW.



I'm no defender of this new system, but it's beed stated many times in this thread that you do NOT need to spend points to stay in your home resort.  You will get a week in your deeded season - guaranteed.

What it is saying is that if you wanted to exchange your reserved week for another week in your season, it would cost you extra points.  Today, you can call Marriott and if a different week in your season is available, you pay them a small fee to change your reservation.  I imagine that would stay as it is.  But once you take points for your week, then the only way to spend those points is to use their menu - and, yes, the week you just gave up would cost more points than you got.  That sucks - so don't do that.

Heck, if I deposit my week with interval and want to exchange it for an adjacent week - and am lucky enough to get it - it still costs me an exchange fee.  That sucks, too.


----------



## mightywyrm

jimf41 said:


> Why? Do you know what that means, I don't. I haven't seen anybody on TUG explain it although a lot of tuggers have expressed deep concern over it.
> 
> I do know that a weeks owner that doesn't enroll can reserve weeks at any of the 53 Marriott's in the system including those 11 trust owned. I also know that a points owner or an enrolled weeks owner using points can do the exact same thing. I also know that deeded weeks have been sold at all 11 of those trust based resorts so the trust doesn't own 100% of any of them.
> 
> Please explain your potential alarm. I don't understand it.



Jim, my understanding is that it means there is zero inventory owned by the trust at 80% of the resorts.  I would've expected a greater investment to match all the balloons and fanfare...  This inventory has to come from somewhere, or there will be hell to pay with their sales strategy.  Luckily for Marriott, it can simply rely on II to surreptitiously snag much (most? all?) of the high-value inventory and turn it over for points customers to use, without the weeks owners even knowing that this occurred.  (See timeos2's recent post about II's attitude toward us little people.)

So yes, people who choose not to participate in the new program can go through the same motions and USE their weeks as they always have, blissfully ignorant that the game is more highly rigged against them than it was before.  Outcomes for the weeks owners, who are continuing to "use their weeks as they always have" (but were not promised anything beyond that), are more likely to be disappointing.  So here's a puff of smoke and bit of mirror, in the implication that nothing has changed while the truth appears to be quite different inside the II "black box".

This is only one of a long list of concerns and objections, but the game has changed despite beside-the-point assurances that we can go about the same rote, comforting processes to which we've grown accustomed.


----------



## Stressy

jjluhman said:


> Brian- I think this is how Marriott can grab weeks from II for the Program.
> 
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
> performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
> internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
> the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
> exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
> or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
> Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
> Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.



Here is what I'd like to know then. If the Club Program Manager is acting on behalf of the owner in their new II acccount...then they are simply making a request to II just like anyone else with a II account-right?

If I as a weeks owner who has not enrolled in the new system, deposit my week and place a request with my "regular" II account and my request predates the Club Program Manager's request (trade value and all other things being equal) Will they fill my request first?

Should that be a Marriott question or a II question?


----------



## brianfox

jjluhman said:


> Brian- I think this is how Marriott can grab weeks from II for the Program.
> 
> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
> performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
> internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
> the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
> exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
> or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
> Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
> Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.




But, correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that they can only snatch those weeks if they were deposited by (or requested by) a person in who could otherwise get points for his week.  If I choose not to become a member of this Marriott option, then I believe Marriott cannot interfere with (or snatch) my deposit into Interval.

That's the big concern I have - that the act of even "trying out" the point system will allow Marriott to snatch deposits - even if they elect not to take points.


EDIT - Okay, wait a minute...  I don't see anything wrong with that part of the rules.  Marriott will attempt Request First exchanges on behalf of Point members?  I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are going to deposit a decent week in exchange, *and as long as my Deposit First request is handled ahead of them*.  If they are given priority over us because they are Marriott, then I have a problem.

Is this the only basis for the idea that Marriott can snatch II inventory?  If so, it seems pretty flimsy (and takes the wind out of my problem with the system)


----------



## Andar

People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.  

My question is about the club fee of $168.  That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight.   What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien?   Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.  

Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.  

What am I missing?


----------



## jjluhman

Someone posted statements from Marriott documents that said the points requests could be satisfied by non enrolled members deposits in II- I have read so many posts that I have NO idea which thread that is even posted in.  Cannot imagine why:rofl: 
That is exactly my concern- I think that Marriott & II have come to the agreement that Marriott's requests will be honored ahead of individual account requests.  They have a corporate relationship and we are just little players in their game.


----------



## brianfox

Andar said:


> People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.
> 
> My question is about the club fee of $168.  That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight.   What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien?   Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.
> 
> Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.
> 
> What am I missing?



Lien? No.  This was asked earlier.  They just kick you out of the point system.  Since the fee includes your Interval membership, I imagine Interval would be knocking at your door next asking you to re-join.

From the perspective of the "club fee" $168 is far cheaper than 1 yr of Interval + a lockoff fee + an exchange fee (two exchanges if you have a lockoff).  But that assumes you use the point system.  If you don't then the $168 is not much more than your current Interval membership.  

*Now, a good question is whether Marriott will let you do the lockoff under the $168 club fee, then deposit one half (or both) in II?*  If so, then the $168 is pretty much a wash for people who have lockoffs.  If you have 2 lockoff weeks, the $168 is a bargain.

The concern about a "test drive" is we don't fully understand what stipulations come along with it.  It sounds innocent enough - heck, Marriott practically makes the first year free (if you purchased through Marriott) by dangling points in front of your face.  Me?  I smell a rat.


----------



## Stressy

brianfox said:


> But, correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that they can only snatch those weeks if they were deposited by (or requested by) a person in who could otherwise get points for his week.  If I choose not to become a member of this Marriott option, then I believe Marriott cannot interfere with (or snatch) my deposit into Interval.
> 
> That's the big concern I have - that the act of even "trying out" the point system will allow Marriott to snatch deposits - even if they elect not to take points.
> 
> 
> EDIT - Okay, wait a minute...  I don't see anything wrong with that part of the rules.  Marriott will attempt Request First exchanges on behalf of Point members?  I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are going to deposit a decent week in exchange, *and as long as my Deposit First request is handled ahead of them*.  If they are given priority over us because they are Marriott, then I have a problem.
> Is this the only basis for the idea that Marriott can snatch II inventory?  If so, it seems pretty flimsy (and takes the wind out of my problem with the system)



That's my question exactly. Who should answer this...Marriott or II?


----------



## hipslo

*Just Had a "Flash" About Inventory Allocations*

If much of the inventory that is anticipated to be available to points is going to come from weeks owners who deposit their reserved week into II, the absolute earliest that those weeks will become available to points owners is AFTER the weeks owner makes a reservation (at 13 or 12 months) and deposits the week into II, right? 

 So, if that is the case, don't weeks owners (those who dont enroll, and those who do enroll but do not elect points for a given year) STILL get first crack at the best weeks?  

Or am I missing something?

I realize that there may be issues with availability in II if marriott poaches the deposited weeks for use in the points program, but what I am focused on here is reserving to use.  

Could all the speculation of increased competition for home resort reservations from points owners be a red herring, at least at resorts that are sold out, or nearly so, based on my observation?


----------



## brianfox

Stressy said:


> That's my question exactly. Who should answer this...Marriott or II?



For the next month or so, you could call a dozen times and get a dozen different answers from a dozen different people.  
I bet only 5 people at Marriott know for sure - and 4 of them are lawyers.


----------



## jjluhman

Here it is- posted by banquopak in the Trust only has 11 thread!

>And from Marriott's page:
>
>Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within >the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

>Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for >reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who >enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-
>enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or >exchange their week through membership in Interval International. 

>Don't join, and don't trade interval. If you do either, the units will go to the >points people first and probably only get into one of the 11 resorts >currently listed in their disclosure.


----------



## CapriciousC

Andar said:


> People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.
> 
> My question is about the club fee of $168.  That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight.   What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien?   Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.
> 
> Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.
> 
> What am I missing?



Good point - this is another reason the program is not particularly attractive to us.  My husband travels frequently for business and usually stays in Marriott hotels - he's at the Platinum level and tends to rack up points faster than we can use them.  Those points cost us nothing, and it's very easy to redeem them for hotel stays.  I don't like the idea of paying an annual fee "just in case" I decide to utilize this new point system.

I realize that there are thousands of Vacation Club members, and each of our situations are different.  However, it seems as though this plan was designed to appeal greatly to a particular subset of the member population, while being not remotely appealing to the remainder of members.  

Does anyone know why the Caribbean resorts are included but the European ones aren't?  Is it the result of some sort of legal restriction?


----------



## jjluhman

hipslo- 

That makes sense and sure makes me feel better about my ability to book my own season.  I hope that you are right!


----------



## hipslo

jjluhman said:


> hipslo-
> 
> That makes sense and sure makes me feel better about my ability to book my own season.  I hope that you are right!



If I am right, then I guess the only source of weeks that points owners would be directly competing for would be those that come from owners of the same season at the home resort who enroll and elect points for a given year.


----------



## DanCali

mightywyrm said:


> I'm glad she was honest enough to give you a straight answer.  However, she couldn't address the point that even if you bought a second week, neither of your weeks could garner an equal trade.  So, yes, *now *you realize that you could've gotten another week and thus have more than enough points to trade for, say, 1.8 or 1.9 equivalent weeks.
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> They *always* say something to the effect that "now is the time to buy".  If _this time_ they really meant it, they should've explained _*why*_, rather than springing this set of changes on us.  They did *NOT *deal with their customer base in an open and honest way.
> 
> It's not that prices are went up, it's that _*values went down*_.  They're _*using *_the system to deny things you could formerly do.  That's not value creation, it's exploitation of people who they have put over a barrel.
> 
> The fact that they're asking for blind faith to trust them _*completely *_in their new points contracts is quite the outrageous power grab.  I've never seen anything like it in any contract I've ever drafted or signed, short of a medical release (go ahead and kill me, I'm in your hands).
> 
> I'd love to hear that former Disney exec whose work product this supposedly is, come out of the shadows and justify his value proposition.  (Maybe he was that shuttle bus driver who said that Marriott and Disney were going to merge their timeshare operations.)
> 
> ps - this is not intended to offend anyone who may see value in the new program, as I can see how in some scenarios (perhaps even my own) this could still be a reasonable decision to buy.  For most people, however, the options available and various of the takeaways in the new program, represent a very poor value relative to what was available a few days ago.



The more I read about the disadvantages of the program, the more I feel this is what Marriott did to their most loyal customers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ


----------



## DanCali

Slakk said:


> Hang on.  I looked at the enrollment, saw a point value, liked it, called Marriott for confirmation on the point value and then PAID them for it and got a confirmation with that amount listed.  I did not get something for nothing I have no idea if this number has changed more than the 3 numbers I have seen.
> 
> This has nothing to do with society - it has to do with Marriott offering me something, me agreeing to the terms, them confirming the deal then without notice or explanation changing the terms.
> 
> I guess you think it would be fine if I advertised my BMW for sale and you contacted me and we agreed to the price and I confirmed a sale and then sent you a little red wagon.
> 
> If that's the case, want to buy a BMW?  :hysterical:




Given what you read on TUG about others' owners allocations being below the season average, did you not suspect at all this was a mistake on their part?

I understand you jumped on the deal, but honoring this will probably cause many more problems for them. Now if they don't let you back out and give you a full refund, you have every right to be upset.

Do you still like the program now that you got shafted like everyone else? If so, stay in it. If you are not sure, ask for a refund,think it over for a few months, and you can reenroll until Dec 31....


----------



## mightywyrm

DanCali said:


> The more I read about the disadvantages of the program, the more I feel this is what Marriott did to their most loyal customers:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ



LoL.  

Here's a meeting of the sales staff (WARNING: great drama, but Alec Baldwin uses a lot of off-color language)... 

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI*


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Most people will 'invest' $700 to protect a $100k investment.



This was a very good post, but you went a bit overboard with this. The $100K "investment" deprecated 60% or more after 7 days. This new program depreciates it further. The $100K is long gone and spending $700 is possibly just throwing good money after bad (a-la the link in post #1062 above).

I myself have been wondering about the question will a converted week be worth more on the resale market than a non converted week... My understanding is that a converted week will allow the next buyer to convert to points for $1500. A non-converted week will lose that ability forever (or until the next promotion designed to get inventory). So in thery, a converted week is worth more since it as an option attached. But exercising that option costs the new buyer $1500 - so how much more will they actually pay for a converted week? I guess it depends onthe resort and season but if it's $1K-$2K one could argue in favor of conversion just based on this argument.


----------



## DanaTom

DanCali said:


> Given what you read on TUG about others' owners allocations being below the season average, did you not suspect at all this was a mistake on their part?
> 
> I understand you jumped on the deal, but honoring this will probably cause many more problems for them. Now if they don't let you back out and give you a full refund, you have every right to be upset.
> 
> Do you still like the program now that you got shafted like everyone else? If so, stay in it. If you are not sure, ask for a refund,think it over for a few months, and you can reenroll until Dec 31....




I suspect that the disclosure to enter into joining has a no-fault reference for computer or other errors, so Marriott has the right to correct the error.  But, SLAKKs situation does show me something that has existed with every knowledgeable Timesharer.... find the best deal possible, and use the system to their advantage.   Beside probably budgeting, I think that is another reason Marriott has moved to the points system.   So they control the inventory, not the knowledgeable Timesharer (which includes a lot of Tuggers, whom gladly share their secrets).   As this program progresses, I'm sure glad I'm not on an Island by myself to figure it out...I'll have all of you fellow Tuggers!!!!


----------



## mightywyrm

brianfox said:


> Here's my 2 cents about this new system:
> 
> Marriott is moving to the system Disney has - points.
> The problem is that current owners own a tangible asset of sorts - the right to a week at their home resort - and until now, owners never really had a concrete value to associate with their owned week.  Sure, the free-market system assigned a value to the resale of your week, and Marriott assigned a retail value, but the fact that we can exchange our seemingly worthless week for a prime week inflated the value of any resort that tends to be "traded up" from.
> 
> Now, the point system attempts to assign a really-for-real value to every resort.   Let's for a moment remove II from the equation.  Let's take a cold hard look at just the Marriott point-system in a vacuum.
> 
> Going forward, as I understand it - new Marriott customers will only buy points.  The cost right now appears to be $9.20 a point to buy and Maintenance Fees of $.40 per point.
> 
> I own the following weeks:
> Platinum week at Desert Springs II = 2,900 points to me if I take points.
> Silver week at Willow Ridge = 850 points to me if I take points
> 
> Let's see how they compare to the proposed point system:
> I'm going to just use the points I would receive from Marriott as an owner for these calculations (not the points it would cost to stay that week):
> 
> Desert Springs - 2900 * $9.20 = $26680.  This is the "value" marriott is assigning to ownership of my Platinum week.  Bear with me if you want to argue this...
> 
> Willow Ridge - 850 points * $920 = $7820.
> 
> So am I suggesting my Willow Ridge Silver week is worth almost $8000?  Hardly, but Marriott seems to be saying that...  After all, buying 850 points annually would cost me $7820, and Marriott will give me 850 points annually for my Willow Ridge week.
> 
> What about the Maintenance Fees?
> I paid $1080 in 2010 for Desert Springs.  Point-wise, I paid $1080/2900= $0.372 per point -- slightly less than the $0.40 per point a new Marriott points-only customer would pay.
> 
> I paid $780 in 2010 for Willow Ridge MF.  Point-wise, I paid $780/850=a staggering $0.917 per point.  To me, that is an indication that Marriott is assigning a higher point value to the resort than they believe it's worth.
> 
> 
> I purchased both of my weeks resale just a year ago, at a very good price.  My Desert Springs cost $6500, and Marriott will allow me to exchange for 2900 points annually if I become a member of their system.  Purchasing 2900 points today would cost about $20,000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points and the MF would be roughly the same.
> 
> 
> My Willow Ridge cost $1000, and Marriott will allow me to exchenge for 850 points annually if I become a member.  Purchasing 850 points today would cost about $7000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points, but the MF would be about half of what I pay.
> 
> From that vacuum perspective, the Marriott system sounds like a great deal - especially if I want to always stay at my home resort, or are willing to exchange into a lesser-resort.
> 
> Where it goes extremely sour is when we want to "exchange up".  Until now, we could get great deals through II.  From almost any perspective, an exchange out of a winter Branson week is an exchange up - that's why I purchased it.  Any Flexchange I could get would most certainly be a great one.
> 
> Through the Marriott point system, the resort costs are laid out and appear to be inflexible.  There is no "Flexchange" discount for last minute vacations.  Both of my 2BR weeks combined would barely get a 1BR summer Hawaii week.  Is that the way it should be?  Is that reality?  If it is, then the Marriott point system is not for me.
> 
> Many of us bought a Marriott because of the Lock-off option.  Most of us have consistently exchanged our Studio for a 1BR or 2BR in the same season during Flex, and still had our 1BR to exchange for something else - basically a free week for the cost of an exchange fee.  With the point system, that simply cannot happen any longer.  Were we "gaming" the Interval system by doing that?
> 
> Even so, why not just join and try it out, as Pooh keeps suggesting?  What could it hurt?  The worst case is that you have to figure out how to spend your free 800 point bonus, right?  I'm not convinced that is the case...
> 
> My big problem is that I'm still not certain what signing on the dotted line allows Marriott to do.  I keep reading that Marriott somehow is allowed to pull from the Interval pool as it desires.  Clearly, if they are allowed to raid the pool for the point-system use, II will die a quick death, and we will all be forced into the point system like-it-or-not.  If I do NOT join the point system and deposit my week into the II pool, how can Marriott possibly grab it?  What I do imagine is that if I DO join the point system, then that may give them the right to pull my II deposit out of the pool - and that is my fear.
> 
> If in fact the act of signing up for the option of having points allows Marriott to sap the II pool, that is a very scary thing.  I want to know the answer to that one before I consider enrolling.



You touched on a couple thoughts that I had in the back of my mind, but the most positive thing I could hope for is that Disney and Marriott *may* be considering a long-term partnership.  You may recall a rumor from a DisneyWorld shuttle bus driver who had this inside track.  Well, suppose he actually did overhear or see something.  Suppose that Marriott and Disney are aligning the governance of their respective programs, and that this is just phase 1 of a consolidation that might or might not take place in, oh, 9 years. 

I might be much more interested in a combined system.


----------



## brianfox

mightywyrm said:


> You touched on a couple thoughts that I had in the back of my mind, but the most positive thing I could hope for is that Disney and Marriott *may* be considering a long-term partnership.  You may recall a rumor from a DisneyWorld shuttle bus driver who had this inside track.  Well, suppose he actually did overhear or see something.  Suppose that Marriott and Disney are aligning the governance of their respective programs, and that this is just phase 1 of a consolidation that might or might not take place in, oh, 9 years.
> 
> I might be much more interested in a combined system.



Hmmmm...DVC and Marriott combine....  
How would that possibly screw us to the wall further?

I'd bet Marriott would find a way to have our deeds expire in 2042.
I better shut up before I give them any ideas.  :ignore:


----------



## radmoo

I spoke w/Marriott rep yesterday as I had deposited my CV March 2011 week w/II on Sat in order to receive bonus week.  Of course I had to renew my II dues and then I read about new Marriott all inclusive fee.  While the $169 sounds attractive rather than paying "here a fee, there a fee" I'm not sure about this points thing.  MY CV week is worth less than what an OP week would cost me in March under the "improved" program.  We don't have kids and aren't locked into school vacation weeks so for now the original deposit week plan is a better choice - at least I think it is.

I think current owners have the edge as new buyers will only be offered points option.  Clearly the weeks must be advantageous to us and disadvantageous to Marriott.  Otherwise, why would they eliminate them or at the very least give new buyers either/or alternative?????


----------



## JimIg23

hipslo said:


> If much of the inventory that is anticipated to be available to points is going to come from weeks owners who deposit their reserved week into II, the absolute earliest that those weeks will become available to points owners is AFTER the weeks owner makes a reservation (at 13 or 12 months) and deposits the week into II, right?
> 
> So, if that is the case, don't weeks owners (those who dont enroll, and those who do enroll but do not elect points for a given year) STILL get first crack at the best weeks?
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> I realize that there may be issues with availability in II if marriott poaches the deposited weeks for use in the points program, but what I am focused on here is reserving to use.
> 
> Could all the speculation of increased competition for home resort reservations from points owners be a red herring, at least at resorts that are sold out, or nearly so, based on my observation?



There is hopefully an agreement with II and Marriott where in Marriott deposits a specific week (that they take out of points allocation) which gives them a certain amount of trading power that is on par with anyone else's trading power of the same week.  I would hope that II is respectable enough that that trades will be made as normal, based on trade power and deposit/request status.  I don't expect II to bump Marriott lower if their trading power on the specific week is higher than a deeded week.  On the other hand, I really hope there is not an agreement that Marriott gets priority even though they deposit a weaker week.  I want to assume that II would not do something like that because if it got out, their members would be very upset.


----------



## catharsis

*If you use points to relocate you are taking II inventory from non-trust-members.*



jjluhman said:


> Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
> 1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
> Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
> of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
> performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
> internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
> the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
> exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
> or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
> Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
> Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.



So anyone who was wondering

Marriot will fulfill 'points' reservations at non-home resorts by 'plucking' the weeks requested by points owners out of the II pool deposited by weeks owners who want nothing to do with points.

So, when a point user wants to book a week using points, in another marriott, marriot will 
   1. convert his 'home week' into points, and skim off 7%
   2. take a deposited week out of II and give it to this owner.
   3. (presumably) give II a shoulder developer owned-week elsewhere as an exchange

Why would II agree to this - it seems like it's a way for Marriot to charge people extra for access to II inventory ?


----------



## wuv pooh

Asia2000 said:


> I would not label "successful people" as people who spend more to receive less.  However, I can see that many of the benefits stated in this program may be benefits to some and benefit removal for others.
> 
> In the end, point program members will have to spend more to get what they want.  Whether that is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.



That is my only point.  On Tug we see the 'success' stories of the current system.  I traded my Horizons Gold for Grande Ocean Platinum Ocean Front (I really did  )  Marriott hears the complaints from the other side of the trade  If I was a betting man I would guess that there were a lot of complaints from people who shelled out $50k for a Hawaii week and only get offered Orlando inventory or lock offs, etc


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## dioxide45

It seems to a degree that the new system is layering an exchange company on top of an exchange company. If you want to reserve another resort using points and Marriott doesn't have it, they go to II. If II has it, they pony up a couple low end weeks for that high end week and get the week back via the exchange and then confirm the requester in to the resort.


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> This was a very good post, but you went a bit overboard with this. The $100K "investment" deprecated 60% or more after 7 days. This new program depreciates it further. The $100K is long gone and spending $700 is possibly just throwing good money after bad (a-la the link in post #1062 above).



Most people could care less about resale value.  They don't plan to sell.  They may need to sell at some point, but they do not forsee it.  Similar to a car people do not skip a $500 repair, but spend it to keep the functionalilty of the car.  If you do not spend the $700 you will potentially seriously impair the functioning of your timeshare in the future.  If you spent $1,000 on a resale you might not care, if you spent $100k you will care and the salesman will easily put a doubt in your mind and slip you the low pain solution 'try it out' you have nothing to lose.


----------



## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## irish

OMG !! i am soooooo confused by this whole fiasco. maybe PERRY M can help me to understand a little better on his webinair thursday..
as i see it now, marriott has simply come up with another way to MILK us for more $$$ and screw loyal owners. 
when i first purchased my week, i could use the reward points to get a week in a very nice MARRIOTT hotel. now, 10 years later they have elevated the points required for this same stay to a point where i may only get a5 day stay.  my actual unit points are exactly the same. no increase there! so you KNOW,going forwardt, this is going to occur with their NEW AND IMPROVED POINTS program.just another way to get more $$$ from us.
another thing, i purchased a SEASON. i was not given the opportunity to pick a specific week. i paid the same amount at the time of purchase as everyone else purchasing in that season. my m/fs are exactly the same 'LIKE TO LIKE." now i find out that my week is given a lesser POINTS VALUE then someone else owning in THE SAME SEASON but my m/f's are still the same as someone with a HIGHER POINTS value. i ask you WHERE IS THE EQUITY? THIS IS JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLY BAD. 
everyone is calling their VACATION SPECIALIST and taking them at their word. what happened to the the portent "IF THE SALESMANS LIPS ARE MOVING HE'S LYING" now, more then ever before, this should come to mind!
i SERIOUSLY don't think i am going to take part in this new program and give them the opportunity to screw me yet again. FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU.FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON ME!!


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## Slakk

text deleted


----------



## wuv pooh

Andar said:


> People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.
> 
> My question is about the club fee of $168.  That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight.   What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien?   Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.
> 
> Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.
> 
> What am I missing?



What you are missing is that most people have an II account.  If you occupy only and never trade then the fee is a straight add.

However, if you do anything else with your week then it is better to join the new club.

Having an II account to do exchanges costs $89

Trading for points costs $109 - you are over the fee.

Locking off costs $75 - you are at the fee.

Trading your week for a Marriott costs $109 - you are over the fee

Trading both halves of your lockoff costs another $218 - you are way over the fee.

Trading is exactly the same under either option if you do not use the new points currency.  You will be competing with other weeks owners, only your fees will be cheaper in the Marriott system.

The only thing not clear to me is if you enroll you may lose direct access to the II website.  Many people would rather pay higher fees to have this direct access.


----------



## tombo

Slakk said:


> I wish everyone would stop jumping to conclusions, Marriott is not treating me special.  No secret handshake, nothing.



So Marriott is not treating you special and some here feel that they are? I believe you. I would on the other hand have a very hard time believing you if you said that Marriott was treating you "special".

Marriott doesn't care at all about how they treat customers unless it will cost them sales or cause them publicity problems. If you were about to buy $30,000 or $40,000 worth of points then they would rectify the problem and treat you special. If you owned a travel agency, if you were a reporter, or if you were an elected political official, then you would get treated special. If you are simply a customer who owns some weeks purchased resale or retail, then Marriott does not treat you special.


----------



## ArtsieAng

wuv pooh said:


> What you are missing is that most people have an II account.  If you occupy only and never trade then the fee is a straight add.
> 
> However, if you do anything else with your week then it is better to join the new club.
> 
> Having an II account to do exchanges costs $89
> 
> Trading for points costs $109 - you are over the fee.
> 
> Locking off costs $75 - you are at the fee.
> 
> Trading your week for a Marriott costs $109 - you are over the fee
> 
> Trading both halves of your lockoff costs another $218 - you are way over the fee.
> 
> Trading is exactly the same under either option if you do not use the new points currency.  You will be competing with other weeks owners, only your fees will be cheaper in the Marriott system.
> 
> *The only thing not clear to me is if you enroll you may lose direct access to the II website.  Many people would rather pay higher fees to have this direct access*.



This is still in question since there seems to be conflicting info being giving out, at the moment........If it turns out to be true, this would be huge, IMO.

It's not just flexchanges that you'd be giving up. I've gotten great trades into The Four Seasons, Hyatt's and the like, at 6-10 months out. It would be a shame to have to give those up.


----------



## wuv pooh

irish said:


> another thing, i purchased a SEASON. i was not given the opportunity to pick a specific week. i paid the same amount at the time of purchase as everyone else purchasing in that season. my m/fs are exactly the same 'LIKE TO LIKE." now i find out that my week is given a lesser POINTS VALUE then someone else owning in THE SAME SEASON but my m/f's are still the same as someone with a HIGHER POINTS value. i ask you WHERE IS THE EQUITY? THIS IS JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLY BAD.



This is not true.  Every person in each season/view is offered the same exact points.  What has changed is the points required to exchange back into that week if you exchanged vs. reserved is now higher.  In the old system, if you lost the lottery, and needed and exact week you could deposit in II pay a fee and trade back into that week.  Under the new system you will not have the required points to do that is most cases.  You would need to borrow points or stay one less day or change seasons.  For exchaning into other resorts the points charts now represent the demand that Marriott sees for those resorts, so there is really no complaint except that now you can't trade your $8,000 Manor Club Week for a $50,000 Maui week by getting lucky through II.  You have to pay to upgrade to the better week.


----------



## radmoo

wuv pooh said:


> What you are missing is that most people have an II account.  If you occupy only and never trade then the fee is a straight add.
> 
> However, if you do anything else with your week then it is better to join the new club.
> 
> Having an II account to do exchanges costs $89
> 
> Trading for points costs $109 - you are over the fee.
> 
> Locking off costs $75 - you are at the fee.
> 
> 
> Trading your week for a Marriott costs $109 - you are over the fee
> 
> Trading both halves of your lockoff costs another $218 - you are way over the fee.
> 
> Trading is exactly the same under either option if you do not use the new points currency.  You will be competing with other weeks owners, only your fees will be cheaper in the Marriott system.
> 
> The only thing not clear to me is if you enroll you may lose direct access to the II website.  Many people would rather pay higher fees to have this direct access.



all of the above is correct but you also need to add in the UPFRONT joining fee!!


----------



## Dave M

wuv pooh said:


> The only thing not clear to me is if you enroll you may lose direct access to the II website.  Many people would rather pay higher fees to have this direct access.


According to this link (log-in required), you do not lose direct access to II if you enroll and then decide to deposit your week as in the past. The link explains exchanges for those who enroll but choose to reserve their own week and use it for exchanging. One quote:





> Place your request with Interval International. Visit IntervalWorld.com for contact information or to place your request online.


The language at that link is similar to - but not identical to - the comparable link for weeks owners (those who don't enroll in the new program).


----------



## floyddl

wuv pooh said:


> If you do not spend the $700 you will potentially seriously impair the functioning of your timeshare in the future.



This statement is exactly why people are upset.  If true then Marriott has screwed all it's loyal owners.


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> What you are missing is that most people have an II account.  If you occupy only and never trade then the fee is a straight add.
> 
> However, if you do anything else with your week then it is better to join the new club.
> 
> Having an II account to do exchanges costs $89
> 
> Trading for points costs $109 - you are over the fee.
> 
> Locking off costs $75 - you are at the fee.
> 
> Trading your week for a Marriott costs $109 - you are over the fee
> 
> Trading both halves of your lockoff costs another $218 - you are way over the fee.
> 
> Trading is exactly the same under either option if you do not use the new points currency.  You will be competing with other weeks owners, only your fees will be cheaper in the Marriott system.
> 
> The only thing not clear to me is if you enroll you may lose direct access to the II website.  Many people would rather pay higher fees to have this direct access.



For $89 to II a year you have access to flexchanges not available from Marriott, you can still use your home resort every year and pay a total of $89, and you will save about $75 a year. You will have to pay Marriott the fee ($165 until they increase it) each and every year whether you swap to points or not. If you use your home resort for 4 years you are about $380 ahead in savings and you had access to last minute rentals/getaways you wouldn't get converting to Marriott if you do lose direct access to the II website. If you exchange through II you can go to places Marriott has no resorts. You will save $600 to $1995 in conversion fees. You won't have to spend $9200 to buy points so you can afford to stay in your home resort if you need to bank your week or points until the following year to get 2 weeks. You will save the $9200 expense and be able to trade your Marriott week for like for like trades through II. You will save $400 a year in additional annual MF's on the points you have to buy in order to be able to trade like for like units thanks to Marriott's skimming. You will still have your VOTE if you don't convert! Your week will not become marriott's to do what they want with if you don't convert. 

Summary comparing Marriott to II over 5 years if you use your home resort 4 out of 5 years.

II  $89  annual
Access to Flexchanges
Access to worldwide inventory at 1000's of resorts 
Exchange once in 5 years  pay $149 exchange fee
Ability to request before exchange to see availability
Ability to trade like for like and to trade up
Access to getaways/last minute rentals 
Ability to decide last minute to deposit your week for exchange

II 5 times $89 =$445 plus $149 for exchange for a total of $594

Marriott Points

$599 conversion fee (up to $1999)
Marriott $165 every year
No Flexchanges or discounted last minute inventory
No request first. From my understanding your week must be put into points long before the dates you can see what inventory is available to reserve
You must decide far in advance (13 months I think) whether you want points or use of your home week. Can't decide to exchange using points last minute like with II.
No access to cheap getaways
No ability to exchange for any resort other than Marriott
No ability to trade like for like weeks, and no chance to upgrade
Possible nightly or shorter than 7 day stays based on AVAILABILITY (prime weeks doubtful)

$165 times 5 years = $825 (II savings of $380) plus $599 conversion fee (minimum)= $1424

$1424 minus $594= $830 in II savings

add to that the $9200 you need to spend to buy points so you can stay in like for like trades and $400 every year in additiona MF's for the additional points  $400 times 4=$1600 plus $9200= $10800

$1424 plus $10,800= $15,224.


$15,224 Marriott minus $594 II= $14,630 in II savings over 5 years if you exchange one time, and that doesn't include the fees/theft of 7% to 10% of your points that Marriott skims from your account every time you deposit your week!

Spending that kind of money on a new program that mght not work well for points members or even be in existence in 5 years is a huge risk. I'll stick with my home resort deeded week, the ability to vote, access to flexchanges, access to last minute getaways,access to non Marriott resorts/locations, and use II to exchange (or some other exchange company) whenever I decide to trade my week.


----------



## dougef

Questions regarding geographic restrictions on trading:

1 - I own at Ocean Pointe and am currently restricted from trading into Oceana Palms.  Under the Points system, can I now use my Ocean Pointe points (plus the extra 800 pts for sign up) and stay at Oceana Palms?

2 - If the answer to no. 1 is yes, if I already reserved a week at Ocean Pointe for 2011, and I sign up for the new program, can I cancel the reserved week and change to a week at Oceana Palms instead.

Thanks.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

dougef said:


> Questions regarding geographic restrictions on trading:
> 
> 1 - I own at Ocean Pointe and am currently restricted from trading into Oceana Palms.  Under the Points system, can I now use my Ocean Pointe points (plus the extra 800 pts for sign up) and stay at Oceana Palms?
> 
> 2 - If the answer to no. 1 is yes, if I already reserved a week at Ocean Pointe for 2011, and I sign up for the new program, can I cancel the reserved week and change to a week at Oceana Palms instead.
> 
> Thanks.




There should be NO REGIONAL TRADING restrictions using points so you should be able to do your points into Oceana Palms.

However, keep in mind that if you use the Florida Club then you still can trade into Oceana Palms via Interval International.  The key is that you have to reserve your week at one of the other four club members then deposit that week into Interval International and request your Oceana Palms week.  Been there, done that three months ago myself.


----------



## timeos2

*Marriott now gets the trade ups owners used to be able to snag*



brianfox said:


> EDIT - Okay, wait a minute...  I don't see anything wrong with that part of the rules.  Marriott will attempt Request First exchanges on behalf of Point members?  I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are going to deposit a decent week in exchange, *and as long as my Deposit First request is handled ahead of them*.  If they are given priority over us because they are Marriott, then I have a problem.
> 
> Is this the only basis for the idea that Marriott can snatch II inventory?  If so, it seems pretty flimsy (and takes the wind out of my problem with the system)



This is a major problem I have had with II forever. They DO give preference to groups - especially favored developer groups and Marriott is at or near the very top of that list - over the general paying membership. I cannot believe they do that and that the members willingly continue to pay and accept it. 

So there is every reason to believe that a request from Marriott to reserve a week - regardless of the source of that deposit - will be given total priority over any other.  They don't care about deposit first members (place & hope) as they already HAVE the time from them and merely have to string them along until they take any old week that comes along rather than lose their deposit. The request first from Marriott must be satisfied or they don't get the time from them. Easy choice. Take the request first, push off the  place & hope - deal done. And it will be repeated over and over as the place and hope has no leverage whatsoever while each request first must be granted or they lose the potential deposit from a highly desired source. 

As for what they deposit all Marriott has to do is follow the pre-agreed upon points values and dump a bunch of low value times that add up to the right amount. Again, why would they give up anything better? Give the least for the most has to be the plan and for them it's a great one. Like any owner they look to maximize the spread to their advantage and in this case II helps them do just that. 

Far too easy to see who is going to be the loser. It isn't Marriott.


----------



## dougef

TheTimeTraveler said:


> There should be NO REGIONAL TRADING restrictions using points so you should be able to do your points into Oceana Palms.
> 
> However, keep in mind that if you use the Florida Club then you still can trade into Oceana Palms via Interval International.  The key is that you have to reserve your week at one of the other four club members then deposit that week into Interval International and request your Oceana Palms week.  Been there, done that three months ago myself.



The problem with Florida Club is if you want a prime week - say in April, your chances of finding anything available at the six month mark are very slim.


----------



## csalter2

*Unnecessary Mass Hysteria*

I have read this everchanging link since its inception when folks started being concerned about Marriott's new ponts program.  What I have noticed is a hysteria first about what it may or could be and now it's hysteria of what one thinks it truly is. People are now believing Marriott is out to get them and they are screwing with their customers. 

In my opinion, those who bought resale have had it so good for so long and those who bought developer in low seasons have been so fortunate for so long to trade into resorts that maybe they should never have been eligible for, are now upset because it has caught up with them. It is as if a loophole has been closed in the law that now stops people from claiming deductions that they really should not have been able to deduct anyway. 

We can do all the same things with our own resort. We don't have to have points to stay in our resort. We can still go to II if we want to. The problem is you want Marriott and now it's as accessible as a Westin in Maui.  Your one bedroom silver week should concern you with lower value which is what I recall the salesman telling me when trying to get me to buy platinum. 

Folks, this is change. You will have to deal with it. All of the misinformation that runs across this thread will not help new people. Most of the complaints that people have are unfounded and people dream them up. 

I know I can stay in my resort. I have always planned in advance so I will know a year in advance if I want to stay at my nome resort and I will do as I have always done in the past. If I choose to do otherwise, there's interval international. 

I believe those who bought resale should be happy they only have to pay a smaill fee to now come into the fold if they want. Remember you bought for far less than those who bought at developer prices. You still have a deal as you get to come in and now have those MRP's that you felt you did not need. Your resale weeks are now legit if you join. 

People you still have what you paid for, but now that you are getting exactly that, you don't like it.  Remember on TUGG mantra, buy where you want to stay.  You should not have a problem if you follow that. 

This mass hysteria is just killing me.


----------



## jjluhman

TheTimeTraveler said:


> There should be NO REGIONAL TRADING restrictions using points so you should be able to do your points into Oceana Palms.
> 
> However, keep in mind that if you use the Florida Club then you still can trade into Oceana Palms via Interval International.  The key is that you have to reserve your week at one of the other four club members then deposit that week into Interval International and request your Oceana Palms week.  Been there, done that three months ago myself.



As if I did not already find a list of reasons that my TUG membership money was well spent, this tip alone made it worth it.  Why didn't I think of this?   

Thanks!


----------



## pacheco18

csalter2 said:


> It is as if a loophole has been closed in the law that now stops people from claiming deductions that they really should not have been able to deduct anyway. .



Carlito - you are so wrong.

These are not loopholes.  The whole Flexchange opportunity was part of the program and touted by Marriott salespeople. In fact, I cannot tell you the number of times a salesman suggested I buy a crappy week with low MFs solely for the purpose of trading during Flexchange.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Most people could care less about resale value.  They don't plan to sell.  They may need to sell at some point, but they do not forsee it.  Similar to a car people do not skip a $500 repair, but spend it to keep the functionalilty of the car.  *If you do not spend the $700 you will potentially seriously impair the functioning of your timeshare in the future.*  If you spent $1,000 on a resale you might not care, if you spent $100k you will care and the salesman will easily put a doubt in your mind and slip you the low pain solution 'try it out' you have nothing to lose.





floyddl said:


> This statement is exactly why people are upset.  If true then Marriott has screwed all it's loyal owners.



Well, this and the implied statement "since you don't care about resale value, we'll charge the person you sell to $1500 to so they can you the timeshare like you did. Sure, it will lower resale value, but you don't care anyway."


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> For $89 to II a year you have access to flexchanges not available from Marriott, you can still use your home resort every year and pay a total of $89, and you will save about $75 a year. You will have to pay Marriott the fee ($165 until they increase it) each and every year whether you swap to points or not. If you use your home resort for 4 years you are about $380 ahead in savings and you had access to last minute rentals/getaways you wouldn't get converting to Marriott if you do lose direct access to the II website. If you exchange through II you can go to places Marriott has no resorts. You will save $600 to $1995 in conversion fees. You won't have to spend $9200 to buy points so you can afford to stay in your home resort if you need to bank your week or points until the following year to get 2 weeks. You will save the $9200 expense and be able to trade your Marriott week for like for like trades through II. You will save $400 a year in additional annual MF's on the points you have to buy in order to be able to trade like for like units thanks to Marriott's skimming. You will still have your VOTE if you don't convert! Your week will not become marriott's to do what they want with if you don't convert.
> 
> Summary comparing Marriott to II over 5 years if you use your home resort 4 out of 5 years.
> 
> II  $89  annual
> Access to Flexchanges
> Access to worldwide inventory at 1000's of resorts
> Exchange once in 5 years  pay $149 exchange fee
> Ability to request before exchange to see availability
> Ability to trade like for like and to trade up
> Access to getaways/last minute rentals
> Ability to decide last minute to deposit your week for exchange
> 
> II 5 times $89 =$445 plus $149 for exchange for a total of $594
> 
> Marriott Points
> 
> $599 conversion fee (up to $1999)
> Marriott $165 every year
> No Flexchanges or discounted last minute inventory
> No request first. From my understanding your week must be put into points long before the dates you can see what inventory is available to reserve
> You must decide far in advance (13 months I think) whether you want points or use of your home week. Can't decide to exchange using points last minute like with II.
> No access to cheap getaways
> No ability to exchange for any resort other than Marriott
> No ability to trade like for like weeks, and no chance to upgrade
> Possible nightly or shorter than 7 day stays based on AVAILABILITY (prime weeks doubtful)
> 
> $165 times 5 years = $825 (II savings of $380) plus $599 conversion fee (minimum)= $1424
> 
> $1424 minus $594= $830 in II savings
> 
> add to that the $9200 you need to spend to buy points so you can stay in like for like trades and $400 every year in additiona MF's for the additional points  $400 times 4=$1600 plus $9200= $10800
> 
> $1424 plus $10,800= $15,224.
> 
> 
> $15,224 minus $594= $14,630 in II savings over 5 years.
> Spending that kind of money on a new program that mght not work well for points members or even be in existence in 5 years is a huge risk. I'll stick with my home resort deeded week, the ability to vote, access to flexchanges, access to last minute getaways,access to non Marriott resorts/locations, and use II to exchange (or some other exchange company) whenever I decide to trade my week.




I know the system is new and confusing, but I believe this is a lot of disinformation.

1. Separate ENROLLING from USING points.
2. You can join the Marriott exchange company and not USE points.
3. You will still have access to flexchange, interval getaways, other resort groups and direct access to II per Dave M's post above.
4. You will be able to do everything you do today only you will pay your fee to Marriott instead of II, and the fee will be lower if you do anything except reserve your week.  This will of course change over time, just as it does now.
5. You NEVER have to use points if you do not want to.
6. If you don't join you will pay your current fees and not the new Marriott fee.  For most this will be higher.  You cannot avoid the trade implications because the trading will be effected regardless of your choice.  It is a fee choice.  Which option is cheaper for your usage?
7. You do not have to buy any points.
8. You give up your voting rights to work against the points system, which is only logical.  If you wish your resort to change managment companies then you will cancel your Marriott exchange membership, become a weeks member again, and vote your conscience and try to influence the HOA.
9. If you do not enroll then you will lose the option to trade for exchange points.  This can be a critical flaw if the change is successful and the weeks inventory becomes depleted either through people converting or Marriott giving preference to points members.
10. The enrollment fee is nominal for developer buyers and reasonable for resale buyers and is currently financially offset by an incentive.  It is trading money for services, but Marriott has the services to provide at a lower cost.  Similar to trading money for MR points incentive in the past.   You have to take more vacation to obtain the benefit which can be a good or bad thing  
11. If Marriott changes things in the future that you do not like you can go back to being a weeks owner any year you choose.

I can see no reason not to enroll unless you are an occupy only owner of a fixed week, a weeks owner who maintains an II account but only does something once every few years and is happy if they can reserve any week in season, a resale owner who does not want to pay $1,995, or if the $700 fee is something you cannot afford.  

Much as people wish things would stay the same they will not.  The exchange sytem will change independent of your choice.  If you don't enroll you will lose the opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities that the new system presents.  If you do enroll you will have the same exact opportunities as people who don't enroll, plus further options.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> I11. If Marriott changes things in the future that you do not like you can go back to being a weeks owner any year you choose.



And if things change unilaterally by marriott and the program is not the same as the one I enrolled into, I can get a refund for the enrollment fee if I go back to weeks?


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> And if things change unilaterally by marriott and the program is not the same as the one I enrolled into, I can get a refund for the enrollment fee if I go back to weeks?



No, you will have to be happy with the incentive you were given to join.  If you feel that is a significant risk then you should not join.  I would evaluate it as a cost x probability

Enrollment fee $700
Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
Net Cost to enroll - $300
Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
Expected cost to join - $150
Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217
Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67

I will join based on the analysis.  YMMV


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> No, you will have to be happy with the incentive you were given to join.  If you feel that is a significant risk then you should not join.  I would evaluate it as a cost x probability
> 
> Enrollment fee $700
> Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
> Net Cost to enroll - $300
> Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
> Expected cost to join - $150
> Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217
> Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67
> 
> I will join based on the analysis.  YMMV



What about the 7% skimming? Given where you are on this argument, its convenient to exclude, but isn't that a real cost? And if you stay longet than one year, it's an annual cost.

If you get skimmed 800 points, that's another $400.


----------



## pspercy

californiagirl said:


> We could bank our 2010 points into 2011 and go then!



I like that too.

I wonder what the "points for cruise" option will look like. At present my week isn't worth much more than maint fee if going for a cruise via II.


----------



## irish

WUVPO, now SOMEWHERE in these pages of posts, i THINK i read the breakdown of points being offered to either CYPRESS HARBOR or ARUBA OCEAN CLUB owners..i own SPECIAL SEASON@CYPRESS and GOLD SEASON@ARUBA.  it seemed to me that the points offered as to the week owned on your deed were varying.  maybe i was having a nightmare after trying to digest all the information being offered. can any one speak to this point difference as to week on deed?


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> What about the 7% skimming? Given where you are on this argument, its convenient to exclude, but isn't that a real cost? And if you stay longet than one year, it's an annual cost.
> 
> If you get skimmed 800 points, that's another $400.



Skimming is independent of the choice.  It only comes into the equation if you actually USE points.  

Presumably you would not use points unless you thought you gained some advantage by doing so ie. booked a prime week, prime view, Mon-Thur stay, etc.  You have to decide if the flexibility is worth the skim, but it does not impact your decision to enroll in the  new exchange company which allows you to do everything a weeks owner can plus more options.


----------



## thadius65

Prior to leaving Surf Club on Monday, we attended an early morning preview to go over new system.  Figured would listen and get 15k rewards points for the quick 90mins.

Basic theme - very exicited, all resorts now your "home" resort, more flexibility, blah blah blah...

I used two examples gathered from this forum:

1).  switch to points and get 3075 for surf club 2 bd villa, gold.  What used to trade pretty well with Maui...  now need almost double.  How is that flexible Mr. Sales person?

2).  switch to points, get 3075...  later decide to go back to my old home resort...  3500 points to get back in.

Both of these "flexible" options after paying the resale entry fee.  I asked how that was a good move.  He then changed up to showing how you could do a day here, two there... three there... and so on.  Could not come up with a closer on this.

We ended at 90min mark.  Lady came in for post review and rated the guys performance and when asked how likely to buy points, or switch on a scale of 1-10...  I said 4 and used my examples and indicated needed more time to see the program unfold and educate myself.  We were offered a 6night stay at home resort for $1299 for 1bedroom villa and $1499 for two bedroom villa with all those funds going to whatever we choose.  So we have 18months to use from today and if we decide to do the points, we at least got a week out of it.  If not...  another week on my favorite island.

So basically for cost of maintenance, got another week for 2011.  Foolish not to, or ??


----------



## irish

dougp26364 said:


> So now I'm a little confused by the Ocean Pointe points chart. We own Silver season but, there appear to be multiple points allocations depending on the week you choose for different weeks in what is now Silver season. I wonder if this means some owners will be screwed since none of us had a choice of what week we were assigned when we purchased.
> 
> We own a 3 bedroom silver season ocean front unit.If our deeded week happens to fall in Sept, then it's only worth 2,900 points. However, Oct weeks are worth 4,000 points and Nov. to Dec. 20th weeks are worth 5,900 points. So, do you get screwed if you got assigned a bum week way back when Marriott wasn't even thinking about points? I guess I better take a quick look to see what week we were deeded.
> 
> I see the same issue with Grand Chateau. Grand Chateau was sold as all platinum weeks with one platinum plus week, yet there are THREE different point values depending on your dates of travel. Which one will we get? Is this a cruel joke played upon those who bought under the old system when Marriott told us it didnt' matter what week was on our deed? Right now I'm not liking the fact they have multiple point valuations yet, when we originally purchased, we weren't given a choice of what week we were assigned. If owners are going to find themselves with different point valuations, then I guess some of us won the lottery and some of us lost, yet we never even knew we were playing or even had a choice.



this was also posted on page 1 or 2 of the thread. 
so was this clarified somewhere else and i just missed it?


----------



## tombo

pspercy said:


> I like that too.
> 
> I wonder what the "points for cruise" option will look like. At present my week isn't worth much more than maint fee if going for a cruise via II.



But you won't get enough points to reserve the week you deposited if you attempt to do so the following year, and you also won't be able to use your points to reserve any like unit which Marriott charges the same number of points to rent as what you deposited.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Skimming is independent of the choice.  It only comes into the equation if you actually USE points.



Your "analysis" factored in savings of lockoff II fees. It therefore assumes exchanges. If you assume exchanges, you should factor in the cost of skimming... It is a real cost.





wuv pooh said:


> No, you will have to be happy with the incentive you were given to join.  If you feel that is a significant risk then you should not join.  I would evaluate it as a cost x probability
> 
> Enrollment fee $700
> Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
> Net Cost to enroll - $300
> Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
> Expected cost to join - $150
> Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217
> Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67
> 
> I will join based on the analysis.  YMMV


----------



## Dave M

irish -

It was long ago clarified. The week you own gets a certain number of points based on the season in which you own. Period.

If you want to reserve a week at your resort, call up and do it just as you do now.

Would you want to opt for points and reserve at your home resort? No, because it will generally cost more points to stay at your resort than you own.

However, when those who do use points to stay at your resort choose a week to reserve, *it will cost them varying levels of points to stay at your resort - even within a single season.* That should not affect you, assuming you always use your week (not points, even if you enroll), when you want to stay at your home resort.


----------



## gmarine

wuv pooh said:


> No, you will have to be happy with the incentive you were given to join.  If you feel that is a significant risk then you should not join.  I would evaluate it as a cost x probability
> 
> Enrollment fee $700
> Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
> Net Cost to enroll - $300
> Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
> Expected cost to join - $150
> Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217
> Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67
> 
> I will join based on the analysis.  YMMV



You dont care that by joining Marriott insists you give up your right to vote with your HOA against anything to do with Marriott ?


----------



## MountainGal

saturn28 said:


> Oh really. In another thread someone that toured today was told by their sales person that 86% of Marriott weeks owners have already joined the new destination points system and 35% of those owners purchased points. That is an amazing rate. Expeically when you consider the program was roled out yesterday.



You got to be kidding.  I contacted friends that own Marriott and they had no idea there were changes effective 6/20.  Who's kidding who? :hysterical:


----------



## sparty

*Is points usage immediate or 2011?*

I've been reading the threads and looking on-line at Marriott and have a call into marriott but I can't find when usage begins?  I am looking to use points in December of 2010, possible? Or does usage only start in 2011?


----------



## urple2

Looks to me that it has all boiled down to two camps... those afraid to join and those afraid not to join...

 If indeed marriott can raid interval and take my deposits and use those to support their sorry  point system is ridiculous and appears to me to be illegal! This alone would prevent me from joining this system let alone all the other nonsense and verbage.


----------



## Dave M

DanCali said:


> Your "analysis" factored in savings of lockoff II fees. It therefore assumes exchanges. If you assume exchanges, you should factor in the cost of skimming... It is a real cost.


I don't believe that's true. Skimming is a cost if you elect to exchange using points. However, if you elect to use your week (even if you are "enrolled" in points) to exchange, it's week for week for the exchange.


----------



## Dave M

sparty said:


> I've been reading the threads and looking on-line at Marriott and have a call into marriott but I can't find when usage begins?  I am looking to use points in December of 2010, possible? Or does usage only start in 2011?


See this quote at several MVCI web pages (including this one) (log-in required):





> Owners participating in the Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsTM Exchange Program may begin making reservations on Monday, July 26, 2010. Until then, please utilize this Web site or contact your Vacation Ownership Advisor (800-845-4226) to familiarize yourself with the new program’s benefits and receive answers to your questions.


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> Your "analysis" factored in savings of lockoff II fees. It therefore assumes exchanges. If you assume exchanges, you should factor in the cost of skimming... It is a real cost.



No, I have to pay to lockoff and occupy.  They are Marriott lockoff fees.  It also assumes II WEEKS exchanges, which I currently make and will continue to make if it is in my own self interest.  It has nothing to do with points.

Again, the decision to change exchange companies has NOTHING to do with points.  Only if you elect points does that factor into anything.


----------



## jgalt19808

*Points adjustment*

I checked the number of points for my unit on Sunday , 6/20/2010 and the number was  2600. Today, when I was preparing to enroll, my point value was listed as 1925. A MVC owner representative told me that all other owners at my resort/season had been awarded 1925 points and that this was the first time they had encountered this problem. Unfortunately, I did not print the 2600 point page.

HAs this happened to anyone else?


----------



## urple2

and they can continue to adjust that point quantity anytime they want to.


----------



## wuv pooh

gmarine said:


> You dont care that by joining Marriott insists you give up your right to vote with your HOA against anything to do with Marriott ?



In 10 years x 2 resorts - 20 votes I have probably voted about 7 times and I have never voted for anything besides what the HOA recommended.  How about you?  Has anything at any resort ever been approved that was not recommended by the HOA?

I don't concern myself with rights that I don't really have anyway.  I would expect that in the case of changing Management companies that I would always vote to retain Marriott anyway or I would sell.  Not interested in being managed by another firm.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Well, this and the implied statement "since you don't care about resale value, we'll charge the person you sell to $1500 to so they can you the timeshare like you did. Sure, it will lower resale value, but you don't care anyway."



Dan, the way it stands now NO weeks that are sold on the external market and closed after 6/20/10 will be eligible to enroll in the Points program.  It doesn't matter if existing Weeks owners now enroll or not - the Enrolled Points ownership will not transfer upon resale to a new owner, and all new owners will not be eligible to enroll.

You and I went back and forth in the speculation thread quite a bit about this - I'm not surprised at all that Marriott continued their history of not protecting  resale values but I am a little bit surprised that they found a way to impact resale values as much as they have.  (I do wonder if it's an attempt to make it easier for them in the future to pick up existing devalued weeks on the resale market through ROFR, to add Points inventory at a favorable cost to them.  Probably.)


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> I know the system is new and confusing, but I believe this is a lot of disinformation.
> 
> 1. Separate ENROLLING from USING points..


No problem in theory, but enrolling is an exense that must be paid.



wuv pooh said:


> 2. You can join the Marriott exchange company and not USE points..


Then why pay $700 to $2000 to join?


wuv pooh said:


> 3. You will still have access to flexchange, interval getaways, other resort groups and direct access to II per Dave M's post above..


If that is true you are paying marriott $165 for something you can get from II for $89 plus access to some imaginary points who's value can be changed at any time for any reason. If you no longer have direct access even a worse deal.


wuv pooh said:


> 4. You will be able to do everything you do today only you will pay your fee to Marriott instead of II, and the fee will be lower if you do anything except reserve your week.  This will of course change over time, just as it does now..


The fee is NOT LOWER unless you exchange EVERY year. You save $76 every year that you use your home week if you are in II over Marriott. Every 2 years you have save more than the annual Marriott fee if you use your home resort. In addition the REAL cost of the points Marriott skims from your deposit oftent times will cost more than the II exchange fee and lockoff fee combined, so rather than a savings exchanging using points will likely be an added expense!


wuv pooh said:


> 5. You NEVER have to use points if you do not want to..


No reason to join and pay $76 more a year then.


wuv pooh said:


> 6. If you don't join you will pay your current fees and not the new Marriott fee.  For most this will be higher.  You cannot avoid the trade implications because the trading will be effected regardless of your choice.  It is a fee choice.  Which option is cheaper for your usage?.


Depends on how often you exchange and whether you can actually still get like for like trades using II, something you can't do with Marriott because they skim your annual points.


wuv pooh said:


> 7. You do not have to buy any points..


You do if you want to use points to trade for resorts that have the same point value as what you deposit, and you have to buy or borrow more points to trade into your own home resort on any year other than your use year.


wuv pooh said:


> 8. You give up your voting rights to work against the points system, which is only logical.  If you wish your resort to change managment companies then you will cancel your Marriott exchange membership, become a weeks member again, and vote your conscience and try to influence the HOA..


Marriott is telling you up front that you won't like the way the points system is run and you won't vote for what they plan to do with the system, so they are going to vote your vote as they see fit and that is understandable and acceptable to you? Really?


wuv pooh said:


> 9. If you do not enroll then you will lose the option to trade for exchange points.  This can be a critical flaw if the change is successful and the weeks inventory becomes depleted either through people converting or Marriott giving preference to points members..


Yes the threat of your week becoming worthless except to use at your home resort is their sales threat, and a real possibility. They can't sell the points on their own merit, so they resort to fear mongering to make owners convert. Whether it turns out to be true or not, i will not be forced to pay extortion by Marriott. If my week becomes worthless, so be it.


wuv pooh said:


> 10. The enrollment fee is nominal for developer buyers and reasonable for resale buyers and is currently financially offset by an incentive.  It is trading money for services, but Marriott has the services to provide at a lower cost.  Similar to trading money for MR points incentive in the past.   You have to take more vacation to obtain the benefit which can be a good or bad thing  .


$1995 is not reasonable, it is a huge percent of what I paid resale. It also give Marriott my vote,Marriott access to my week, and all I get is some of Jack's Magic beans,oops I meant points with zero real dollar value as my bonus.


wuv pooh said:


> 11. If Marriott changes things in the future that you do not like you can go back to being a weeks owner any year you choose..


And be out $1995, have the results of anything they got passed using my vote be irrevocable, and not get any refund or compensation from the $1995 I paid for a program they changed AGAIN with no input from owners. No Thanks.



wuv pooh said:


> I can see no reason not to enroll unless you are an occupy only owner of a fixed week, a weeks owner who maintains an II account but only does something once every few years and is happy if they can reserve any week in season, a resale owner who does not want to pay $1,995, or if the $700 fee is something you cannot afford.
> 
> Much as people wish things would stay the same they will not.  The exchange sytem will change independent of your choice.  If you don't enroll you will lose the opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities that the new system presents.  If you do enroll you will have the same exact opportunities as people who don't enroll, plus further options.



I can see no reason to enroll other than to hope to get better trades than will be given to people who don't convert. You pay more per year to Marriott than to II. You get less points when you deposit your week than they charge you to reserve it or one like it. THE VALUE OF THE POINTS THEY SKIM EVERY TIME YOU DEPOSIT YOUR WEEK CAN EASILY EQUAL $400 ANNUALLY WHICH IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN EXCHANGING THROUGH II AND LOCKING OFF YOUR UNIT EACH AND EVERY YEAR. COUNTING THE SKIM EXCHANGING THROUGH MARRIOTT IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN EXCHANGING THROUGH II. Marriott takes your vote and vote it in marriott's favor, They basically threaten that if you don't convert that eventually your exchange options will be limit in order to make you convert. They will charge anyone who buys your week resale at least $2000 to keep it in the points program killing your resale value and negating the $1995 spent to make it points in the first place. You will never ever uptrade in points. Your will never be able to trade like for like thanks to the skimming. They can change any parts of the points program or the points values at any time and yet we are supposed to trust them to change it in a manner that is good for owners? 

I know you like it, but I still don't see why.


----------



## Rush

Originally posted by *Susan* - _Dan, the way it stands now NO weeks that are sold on the external market and closed after 6/20/10 will be eligible to enroll in the Points program.  It doesn't matter if existing Weeks owners now enroll or not - the Enrolled Points ownership will not transfer upon resale to a new owner, and all new owners will not be eligible to enroll.

You and I went back and forth in the speculation thread quite a bit about this - I'm not surprised at all that Marriott continued their history of not protecting  resale values but I am a little bit surprised that they found a way to impact resale values as much as they have.  (I do wonder if it's an attempt to make it easier for them in the future to pick up existing devalued weeks on the resale market through ROFR, to add Points inventory at a favorable cost to them.  Probably.)_

Have been in and out of this thread as much as possible, Susan, but obviously need to spend more time on it.

However, am I understanding correctly from your above statement which reads "...all new owners [of a resale week] will not be eligible to enroll [in the points program]" that if I choose / manage to resell my weeks, the new owner would be precluded from enrolling in the points program?

Or am I missing something...


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> I know you like it, but I still don't see why.



See below:
Enrollment fee $700 - 
Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
Net Cost to enroll - $300
Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
Expected cost to join - $150
Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217 -insert your own number
Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67


It is ALWAYS cheaper for me since I lockoff one week and exchange.

For you worst case:

Enrollment fee $1,995 - 
Value of 800 points $0 - They are a fraud
Net Cost to enroll - $1,995
Probability of hating new system - 100% 
Expected cost to join - $1,995
Expected loss in one year for usage - $165 
Net Cost of joining for one year - $2,160


I said if you are resale buyer then you have a choice to make.  I guess you will choose no. Or you could say I saved $10,000 on my week, so that is not bad to stay with the program.

BTW there are many more like me than like you, so if you are worried about keeping access to the future exchange system you should apply some value to that in your analysis.  YMMV.


----------



## SueDonJ

Slakk said:


> ... Marriott has not offered me ANYTHING, all I am looking for at the moment is an explanation.  Seems Tuggers have already a pre-determined outcome.  I do not.  Now I am done because I really was trying to see if this is happening to others and all it is giving me is a headache trying to defend myself when I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.



Slakk, I apologize for the insult you're feeling.  The reason I questioned why you wouldn't simply accept Marriott's computer glitches and subsequent corrections, is because you said that you would "look into appropriate recourses" if they tried to correct the mistaken amount first given to you that you questioned yourself.

If your intention is to accept whatever correct points value is actually due you (and every other owner of an interval the same as yours) then I don't have any questions.


----------



## tombo

Rush said:


> [QUOTE Susan]Dan, the way it stands now NO weeks that are sold on the external market and closed after 6/20/10 will be eligible to enroll in the Points program.  It doesn't matter if existing Weeks owners now enroll or not - the Enrolled Points ownership will not transfer upon resale to a new owner, and all new owners will not be eligible to enroll.
> 
> You and I went back and forth in the speculation thread quite a bit about this - I'm not surprised at all that Marriott continued their history of not protecting  resale values but I am a little bit surprised that they found a way to impact resale values as much as they have.  (I do wonder if it's an attempt to make it easier for them in the future to pick up existing devalued weeks on the resale market through ROFR, to add Points inventory at a favorable cost to them.  Probably.)



Have been in and out of this thread as much as possible, Susan, but obviously need to spend more time on it.

However, am I understanding correctly from your above statement which reads "...all new owners [of a resale week] will not be eligible to enroll [in the points program]" that if I choose / manage to resell my weeks, the new owner would be precluded from enrolling in the points program?

If so, Wow!   [/QUOTE]

Marriott has been hard at work figuring out a way to kill the resale value of the weeks they sold in the past. That profit has been made and spent, now the only important customers are those who convert to points and buy points. I feel sure that the Marriott marketing department researched and polled a lot of current owners and finally concluded that the best way for them to show their customer's how much they appreciate them is by killing the value of what Marriott sold them. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?


----------



## Dave M

I am not so concerned about the so-called skimming as many are. I think it will actually be a benefit for many of us.

One major concern is whether we will still be able to book prime weeks at our home resort or will points users be trumping our attempts to reserve those prime weeks. Taking only those current owners who enroll, I don't think that's a major problem. Because of the skimming differential for current owners, many of us are very likely to try to use the existing exchange program (weeks for weeks) to get into another resort and even upgrade where possible, just as we do now. Using points to exchange doesn’t seem to make much sense (because of the skimming) unless we eventually find that II Marriott inventory is almost nonexistent due to the possibility that points exchangers might have preference over weeks exchangers versus “comparable exchange” methodology.

I’m not concerned much that comparable week owners at other resorts will nab the week I want to reserve because of the skimming factor. They won’t have enough points. Upgrading or getting a comparable exchange using points is virtually impossible to do, unless an owner buys more points or uses points from multiple resorts or multiple years to try to get the weeks I want at my home resorts. And because of the skimming factor, a current owner would have to trade down to get a prime week at another resort using points. How many will want to regularly trade down?

Thus, I believe it will still be just about as easy for me to book a premium week at my resorts as it is now. I won't have much competition from points users. 

However, in the long run, as Marriott sells blocks of points to new purchasers, that may change. But it will cost those points purchasers an arm and a leg to get enough points to be in a position to compete with my call for the prime weeks I want to reserve at 12 or 13 months in advance.


----------



## Numismatist

I just got an email inviting me to join...anyone else?

Introducing the next evolution in vacationing - Marriott Vacation Club Destinations TM Exchange Program - a new usage option that is a flexible, easy-to-use, and points-based approach to vacationing.

And because it is an option, once you enroll, each year you can choose to use your ownership as you have in the past or elect to receive Vacation Club Points. 

Enroll in the Exchange Program and Enjoy These New Benefits:

•Enhanced flexibility at Marriott Vacation Club resorts - check in any day of the week, during any season, in any accommodation size, for as long as you want.* 

•More vacation choices like access to the Explorer Collection for adventure travel, cruises, safaris & guided tours to global landmarks, and urban hotel experience packages.**
•A simplified fee structure, so you don't have to pay separate fees such as Interval International membership or for exchanges to other Marriott Vacation Club resorts.***
Special Introductory Enrollment Offer

Enroll for a one-time, low introductory enrollment fee of $595 and if you enroll by December 31, 2010, you will receive a bonus of 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints - good for two to five additional nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort depending on the resort, room type and season.

Learn More During Your Upcoming Stay

You are encouraged to meet with a Sales Executive during your upcoming stay. You will be contacted prior to your arrival to schedule a time that works for you.

You can also call to speak with a Sales Executive, 1-800-845-4226 to speak with Owner Services, or visit My-VacationClub.com for more details or to enroll online.

Sincerely,

Lee Cunningham
Chief Operating Officer
Marriott Timeshare, North America & Caribbean






 *Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program's ability to confirm a specific exchange request is dependent upon the timeshare interests and use periods available or as provided by the provider of accommodations or services. Therefore, Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program cannot guarantee specific resort choices, dates of travel, or types or sizes of accommodations. The earlier an exchange is requested, the better the possibility that a specific request may be confirmed.

**Access to the Explorer Collection is made available through the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program and is subject to the terms and conditions as outlined in the applicable Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program documents. Actual experiences will be provided via contractual arrangements with third party providers and may require the payment of additional fees. The experiences described herein are examples of potential vacation opportunities and are subject to change. Marriott International, Inc., its affiliates, and subsidiaries, makes no warranty, express or implied, as to the condition, capacity, performance or any other aspect of the activities, events, or service providers listed herein. No inquiry has been made into the activities or events, or the qualifications or the quality of services offered by the providers. Do not consider this an endorsement of or recommendation for any of the activities, events, or providers. 

***Enrolled Owners will still be required to pay the annual maintenance fees due and owing each year to their resort's owners association. 

Details of Participation 

SPONSOR: Marriott Vacation Club International 

ELIGIBILITY: The offer of 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints is for existing Marriott Vacation Club Owners who own a deeded Marriott Vacation Club timeshare weeks in the United States or Caribbean, which was purchased no later than June 19, 2010.

OFFER: Purchaser must enroll into the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program no later than December 31,2010, in order to receive the Vacation Club PlusPoints offer. The 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints will be posted to the appropriate account seven (7) days following the completion of the enrollment transaction. Vacation Club PlusPoints expire December 31, 2011. Offer subject to change without notice. Offer not valid in conjunction with any other promotional offer. Offer is nontransferable. 

This is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation to buy to residents in jurisdictions in which registration requirements have not been fulfilled, and your eligibility and the resorts available for purchase will depend upon the state of residency of the purchaser.

If you no longer wish to receive email offers from Marriott Vacation Club International, please click here and complete the form. Please do not reply to this email. If you prefer to contact us or to unsubscribe by postal mail, please send your request to the postal address below and be sure to include your name and email address so we can process your request.

Opt Out
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Please allow us up to 10 business days after we receive your request to remove you from future emails. 

Internet Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | State and Legal Disclosures

©Copyright 2010, Marriott International Inc. All rights reserved. Marriott Proprietary Information.


----------



## SueDonJ

Rush said:


> Have been in and out of this thread as much as possible, Susan, but obviously need to spend more time on it.
> 
> However, am I understanding correctly from your above statement which reads "...all new owners [of a resale week] will not be eligible to enroll [in the points program]" that if I choose / manage to resell my weeks, the new owner would be precluded from enrolling in the points program?
> 
> Or am I missing something...



Yes, that's my understanding.  The Enrolled Points membership is an addendum to a deeded week contract that will not transfer upon resale, and this is from the FAQ for the Enrolled Points option (bolding mine):



> I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?
> *If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program.* The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).


----------



## camachinist

I wonder if those Vacation Club 'PlusPoints' (the 800 tease) will become like an A/C at II, periodically offered to tease people into doing something.

I assume everyone got their e-mail from MVCI as I'm always late to that party, just having received it. Interesting read, in that the disclaimers at the bottom take up almost as much space as the big type at the top. Hope it works out for them


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

*Time Limitations*

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.

If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.

The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.


----------



## aka Julie

Numismatist said:


> I just got an email inviting me to join...anyone else?



Nope, not yet.

Hope they do a better job of sending these out than they did with the gift of time.  Never did get an e-mail on that despite owning 3 weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> ... Marriott has been hard at work figuring out a way to kill the resale value of the weeks they sold in the past. That profit has been made and spent, now the only important customers are those who convert to points and buy points. I feel sure that the Marriott marketing department researched and polled a lot of current owners and finally concluded that the best way for them to show their customer's how much they appreciate them is by killing the value of what Marriott sold them. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?



Or they just figured out a pretty simple way to ensure that in the future they will be able to pick up inventory through ROFR on the external resale market at reduced cost, to increase their holdings in their new Points offering.  They looked for a way to do so that complied with the existing contracts and this was it.  Their stockholders should expect decisions like this from them, and they have an obligation to deliver.


----------



## Rush

_Sorry, duplicate post..._


----------



## Rush

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, that's my understanding.  The Enrolled Points membership is an addendum to a deeded week contract that will not transfer upon resale, and this is from the FAQ for the Enrolled Points option (bolding mine):




Wow!

Thanks Susan.

I seem to remember other posts indicating that future resale owners will be able to join the program, but only upon paying a fee.  If it is indeed the case that they will be precluded from joining, boy, have resale values just taken a HUGE hit...


----------



## SueDonJ

jgalt19808 said:


> I checked the number of points for my unit on Sunday , 6/20/2010 and the number was  2600. Today, when I was preparing to enroll, my point value was listed as 1925. A MVC owner representative told me that all other owners at my resort/season had been awarded 1925 points and that this was the first time they had encountered this problem. Unfortunately, I did not print the 2600 point page.
> 
> HAs this happened to anyone else?



Yes, there have been reports of corrections made by Marriott.  I know at SurfWatch they initially were showing the same amount of points for 2BR and 3BR units with same season/view; the 2BR points have been corrected downward.  Not sure what other resorts are reporting corrections.


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> See below:
> Enrollment fee $700 -
> Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
> Net Cost to enroll - $300
> Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
> Expected cost to join - $150
> Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217 -insert your own number
> Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67
> 
> 
> It is ALWAYS cheaper for me since I lockoff one week and exchange.
> 
> For you worst case:
> 
> Enrollment fee $1,995 -
> Value of 800 points $0 - They are a fraud
> Net Cost to enroll - $1,995
> Probability of hating new system - 100%
> Expected cost to join - $1,995
> Expected loss in one year for usage - $165
> Net Cost of joining for one year - $2,060
> 
> 
> I said if you are resale buyer then you have a choice to make.  I guess you will choose no. Or you could say I saved $10,000 on my week, so that is not bad to stay with the program.
> 
> BTW there are many more like me than like you, so if you are worried about keeping access to the future exchange system you should apply some value to that in your analysis.  YMMV.



I feel sure there are more like you than me, and I don't doubt in the long run that my access to inventory will become very limited thanks to many converting to points, but I will not convert and pay the extortion. one other thing you fail t factor in is the owners who hqave prime seasons, prime fixed weeks, people who use their home week almost every year who will not convert. If they don't put their weeks into points pool, you can own one million points and NVEVER trade for one of those prime weeks. Most who convert will have weak trading weeks and see this as a way to get access to better inventory. If the best inventory remains with the weeks owners, you can buy every point Marriott has for sale and rarely end up staying in prime weeks.

By the way, you refuse to address the cost of stolen points in the exchange expense comparison. II charges $89 a year, Marriott charges charges $76 more per year per year . II charges $149 for an exchange, so on the surface II costs $73 more for an exchange. When you factor in the points Marriott steals every time you deposit your week, it can easily be points which you pay $200 for annually or more. Take the $200 in point theft minus the $73 more II seems to chare, and you are $127 cheaper exchanging through II. Then you bring up lock-off fees with II as though marriott doesn't skim additional points there too, but we know that they do. Add up the points you will pay for a week in a 2 bed room and compare it to the amount of points Marriott charges for a studio and a one bed room and you will see that yes you do pay a fee to Mariott to stay in lock-offs, and it is often (if not always) more than II charges for the same thing. So yes you can exchange through II and lock-off weeks through II cheaper than using Marriott points when you factor in the annual Marriot fee and the cost of the points Marriott charges to exchange and lock off. The difference is that II is honest and upfront about what they charge members to exchange and lock-off, Marriott on the other hand skims and steals points from every transaction hiding the true cost of using points for exchanges and lock-offs.That is what TUG is here for, we point out marriott's hidden point charges to all who are willing read and listen.


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## Slakk

text deleted


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## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> Or they just figured out a pretty simple way to ensure that in the future they will be able to pick up inventory through ROFR on the external resale market at reduced cost, to increase their holdings in their new Points offering.  They looked for a way to do so that complied with the existing contracts and this was it.  Their stockholders should expect decisions like this from them, and they have an obligation to deliver.



If they kill your resale value to buy it using ROFR or they kill your resale value to make their sale better, does it really matter why? 

BMW has stockholders. If you buy a BMW for $50,000 and you can sell it for $25,000, but the sale of used BMW's used hurting the sale of new cars, would you really be OK if BMW came up with a plan to kill the resale value of what you bought from them? If by manipulating some rules or laws or servicing requirements your vehicle which used to be worth $25,000, became worth $8,000, would it be OK because they did it to prop up the new car prices, or acceptable if they did it so they could get it from you for a much cheaper price($8000) to sell for a lot more on their lot? There would be lawsuits to high heavens. People want to buy cars that hold their resale values, not that plummet like a rock. BMW has stockholders and they don't make money killing the value of what they sell. In fact most high dollar items are sold with proud annoncements of how well they retain their value through the years, not how quckly they necome worthless.

You may never plan on selling your Marriott(s), but if your health gets bad and you can't travel you will not pay $1000's in annual MF's for something you can't use. What ever resale value for your week(s) is, that is YOUR MONEY. If you try to sell and get almost nothing for week(s) you paid $50,000 for thanks to the retail developer activelly killing the value of what you bought from them, and that is ok? What other high dollar product would you buy and feel good that the seller made sure it was worth nothing if you ever want to sell it? Diamonds? Real estate? Your home? 

I assure you I want whatever I buy to retain as much of it's value as it can which is why I buy timeshares resale, much of the depreciation has already occurred. I would never buy high dollar things knowing that in a few years the value becomes zero, and i would never be happy that by killing the value of what they sold me that the developer is lining their pockets with money that should rightfully have been mine!


----------



## timeos2

*The bottom line. Marriott is not one to own.*



gmarine said:


> You dont care that by joining Marriott insists you give up your right to vote with your HOA against anything to do with Marriott ?



This item, VERY important, is yet another in a long line of Marriott power plays that basically rule out Marriott ownership for us. 

In the past Marriott has insisted on both developing and then managing the resorts (or taking over total control of resorts they bought into). They charge an unreasonable (IMO) premium on the management fees in addition to requiring only THEIR approved contractors (and high commissions) to keep their name on the letterhead. All of that is not needed. They could easily do as they do on the hotel side and simply tell the resorts what the requirements are to e a Marriott & then the resort meets them or doesn't. The best value could be obtained for the products/services required at a tremendous savings to the owners yet still result in the exact same quality resort. A big power play and a horrendous, unneeded expense feeding the Marriott coffers from owners.

ROFR. This is an extremely owner negative program that only favors Marriott. They have it at most resorts (as Westgate tries to say they do but often don't - but that should tell you what an underhanded thing that is when Westgate embraces it) and it has cost owners resale value and frustration. 

The new points program apparently (and to me incredibly) includes a planned "skim" of points value that go to Marriott. If this really is the case (I still find it hard to believe) this is a first and really lowers Marriott to the level of a Westgate type rip off organization.  Truly the last straw.

The high quality and often great locations of Marriott timeshares simply cannot overcome these horrendous negatives.  Being an owner with Marriott simply cannot be a good value given those negatives among others. It has been easy until now to use the II corporate priority with non-Marriott ownerships to get trades into virtually any Marriott resort thus saving big money over actually owning one and trying to trade within the Marriott system. If that has dried up (and it appears it will due to the new points program and its set of priorities) simply renting has also proven to be easy, gets you the exact week/resort/even view that can be almost impossible to trade for/own despite the high costs of owning. Rents have been depressed for a couple years and will most likely remain so or again at least far below the costs of being an owner and the obligations that brings. 

We love the Marriott timeshares and stay at them regularly. We plan to continue to do that, but at our usual $100 +/- night average cost rather than any type of ownership points or week based. My advice to others would have to be that trading in or rental is a far better financial choice than any type of ownership in the Marriott timeshare system.  Too many negatives, too expensive and WAY too much control in the hands of Marriott to make ownership viable.


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## gmarine

wuv pooh said:


> In 10 years x 2 resorts - 20 votes I have probably voted about 7 times and I have never voted for anything besides what the HOA recommended.  How about you?  Has anything at any resort ever been approved that was not recommended by the HOA?
> 
> I don't concern myself with rights that I don't really have anyway.  I would expect that in the case of changing Management companies that I would always vote to retain Marriott anyway or I would sell.  Not interested in being managed by another firm.



Rights you dont have ?  You have the right to vote your opinion. Marriott is telling you that if you join you must give up that right. If you dont see anything wrong with that then there isnt anything Marriott could do that you would think is wrong. 

You seem to be Marriott's dream customer and no matter what they do you will go along with it. And your enititled to that opinion. That is unless Marriott tells you your not.


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## urple2

> I feel sure there are more like you than me, and I don't doubt in the long run that my access to inventory will become very limited thanks to many converting to points, but I will not convert and pay the extortion.



I feel exactly the same way!

 I know i have said this enough but if marriott can take my deposits out of inventory of Interval, it does even more than hurt us,it diminishes the whole exchange system even further.


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## gmarine

timeos2 said:


> This item, VERY important, is yet another in a long line of Marriott power plays that basically rule out Marriott ownership for us.
> 
> In the past Marriott has insisted on both developing and then managing the resorts (or taking over total control of resorts they bought into). They charge an unreasonable (IMO) premium on the management fees in addition to requiring only THEIR approved contractors (and high commissions) to keep their name on the letterhead. All of that is not needed. They could easily do as they do on the hotel side and simply tell the resorts what the requirements are to e a Marriott & then the resort meets them or doesn't. The best value could be obtained for the products/services required at a tremendous savings to the owners yet still result in the exact same quality resort. A big power play and a horrendous, unneeded expense feeding the Marriott coffers from owners.
> 
> ROFR. This is an extremely owner negative program that only favors Marriott. They have it at most resorts (as Westgate tries to say they do but often don't - but that should tell you what an underhanded thing that is when Westgate embraces it) and it has cost owners resale value and frustration.
> 
> The new points program apparently (and to me incredibly) includes a planned "skim" of points value that go to Marriott. If this really is the case (I still find it hard to believe) this is a first and really lowers Marriott to the level of a Westgate type rip off organization.  Truly the last straw.
> 
> The high quality and often great locations of Marriott timeshares simply cannot overcome these horrendous negatives.  Being an owner with Marriott simply cannot be a good value given those negatives among others. It has been easy until now to use the II corporate priority with non-Marriott ownerships to get trades into virtually any Marriott resort thus saving big money over actually owning one and trying to trade within the Marriott system. If that has dried up (and it appears it will due to the new points program and its set of priorities) simply renting has also proven to be easy, gets you the exact week/resort/even view that can be almost impossible to trade for/own despite the high costs of owning. Rents have been depressed for a couple years and will most likely remain so or again at least far below the costs of being an owner and the obligations that brings.
> 
> We love the Marriott timeshares and stay at them regularly. We plan to continue to do that, but at our usual $100 +/- night average cost rather than any type of ownership points or week based. My advice to others would have to be that trading in or rental is a far better financial choice than any type of ownership in the Marriott timeshare system.  Too many negatives, too expensive and WAY too much control in the hands of Marriott to make ownership viable.



This is a fantastic post, very well said. I agree.


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## brianfox

TheTimeTraveler said:


> I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.
> 
> If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.
> 
> The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.



In the 46 pages of comments, I missed this one, and it sounds like a complete dealbreaker.

If you essentially cannot bank your points (as just about every other point system lets you do) because of a 1 yrear expiration,  how can a point owner ever hope to stay in the top Marriott resorts?

It reminds me of the "Coke Rewards" program where the top prizes are 10,000 points, but you can only add up to 100 points per week to your account.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> If they kill your resale value to buy it using ROFR or they kill your resale value to make their sale better, does it really matter why?
> 
> BMW has stockholders. If you buy a BMW for $50,000 and you can sell it for $25,000, but the sale of used BMW's used hurting the sale of new cars, would you really be OK if BMW came up with a plan to kill the resale value of what you bought from them? If by manipulating some rules or laws your vehicle was worth $25,000 and now it is worth $8,000 would it be OK because they did it to prop up the new car prices or acceptable if they did it so they could get it from you for $8000 to sell for a lot more on their lot? BMW has stockholders and they don't make money killing the value of what they sell. In fact most high dollar items are sold with proud annoncements of how well they retain their value through the years, not how quckly they necome worthless.
> 
> You may never plan on selling your Marriott(s), but if your health gets bad and you can't travel you will not pay $1000's in annual MF's for something you can't use. Then you try to sell it and get almost nothing for week(s) you paid $50,000 for thanks to the retail developer activelly killing the value of what you bought from them, and that is ok? What other high dollar product would you buy and feel good that the seller made sure it was worth nothing if you ever want to sell it? Diamonds? Real estate? Your home?
> 
> I assure you I want whatever I buy to retain as much of it's value as it can which is why I buy timeshares resale, much of the depreciation has already occurred. I would never buy high dollar things knowing that in a few years the value becomes zero thanks to the seller destroying the resale value of what they sold me.



We hashed out the resale devaluation eighty-seventeen ways from Sunday in the speculation thread.  Actually, it's been an ongoing subject for all the years I've been reading TUG and probably goes back to the beginning of time.  :hysterical: 

Bottom line for me is, Marriott isn't charged by the contracts with protecting resale value of their products.  It doesn't matter to me, I don't let it upset me, I don't even think about it, because there is nothing that I can do about it!

As far as its implication with enrolling in the new Points system, it makes no difference at all in the decision to enroll.  Zip.  Zero.  None.  Whatever the effects of this system on resale values, they will apply to every existing deeded week from this point forward, enrolled or not.


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## kedler

TheTimeTraveler said:


> I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.
> 
> If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.
> 
> The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.


In the II Guide that is with the other Marriott documents there is information that allows you to "extend the life" of points that will expire up to 24 months. 

The II Guide is with the other documents that you can access on the MVC owner website by clicking the link to enroll your week. I think the pdf documents are on the second page. You don't need to enroll your week to get to the documents.


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## judys19058

There are so many issues to address here.  Our deeds are now worthless and trading values are greatly diminished.  I admit that I don't know what the new points are selling for, but based on what Marriott is giving me for my units, no one will buy my units.  You no longer have priority booking into your own home resort.  Any one with the appropriate number of points can have priority over you.  I no longer can trade my DSVI for equal weeks in some other resorts.  This resort has always been a good trader with II, but Marriott thinks it is not worth a full week in most trades. I always knew that II had placed values on my resorts, but I was always able to trade week for week, and many times, score nice upgrades (full villa for my lock off).  I noticed that I would have to trade my 2 bedroom Aruba Ocean Club *and* part of another unit to book a week in some other resorts.  Now think about your maintenance fees.  How will Marriott reimburse our resorts as they begin to own a growing number units bought on the FROR market?  There are so many more problems with this system I can't even go into this.  This is not the Marriott I bought into, and now I fear that I won't even be able to trade for anything, and worse, not even sell out.


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## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> We hashed out the resale devaluation eighty-seventeen ways from Sunday in the speculation thread.  Actually, it's been an ongoing subject for all the years I've been reading TUG and probably goes back to the beginning of time.  :hysterical:
> 
> Bottom line for me is, Marriott isn't charged by the contracts with protecting resale value of their products.  It doesn't matter to me, I don't let it upset me, I don't even think about it, because there is nothing that I can do about it!
> 
> As far as its implication with enrolling in the new Points system, it makes no difference at all in the decision to enroll.  Zip.  Zero.  None.  Whatever the effects of this system on resale values, they will apply to every existing deeded week from this point forward, enrolled or not.



So I could sell you a car for $50,000 which should be worth $25,000 after you drive it off the lot, then I could tell you later that things changed unless you pay me $2000 to service it that it is only worth $8000, and then after you pay me $2000 I reduce the value of your resale by having a new $2000 upgrade required or the resale value will be almost zero, then you pay me $2000 more to upgrade and I reduce you value of what you purchased by another $2000 by charging your next buyer the same $2000 to pay for exactly what you already paid for, and I would be a reputable salesman you would like to buy from again?


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## winger

floyddl said:


> ... but I don't think not being allowed into the program would deter a resale buyer looking at saving a lot of money vs. Marriott developer pricing.  I could be wrong.


*If you are strictly occupying your week or exchanging to non-Marriott resorts*, *you will be VERY happy*.  

Unfortunately, at this time, with the uncertainty of:
a) whether Marriott will siphon more precious weeks from the II system to satisfy new Destination Club point members' requests, 
and 
b) how many current deeded owners eventually convert and relinquish their annual weeks for Destination Club points

you COULD be disappointed with the choice of Marriott resorts available for exchanging via II.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> So I could sell you a car for $50,000 which should be worth $25,000 after you drive it off the lot, then I could tell you later that things changed unless you pay me $2000 to service it that it is only worth $8000, and then after you pay me $2000 I reduce the value orf your resale by another $2000 by charging your next buyer the same $2000 to pay for exactly what you already paid for, and I would be a reputable salesman you would like to buy from again?



A timeshare isn't a car.  It's a timeshare.  I expect different things from a purchase of a car than a purchase of timeshare, because the market-driven forces lead me to those different expectations.

Developer-direct purchasers of Marriott timeshares are aware of, have been subject to, an extreme devaluation on the resale market for practically the life of their ownerships.  Here on TUG they've been pointing out for years that the contracts simply do not support any expectation of a return on investment dollars.  It appears that with the advent of the Points system that non-support will now affect external resale purchasers, *as sellers*, as well.  I don't mean this in any way insulting or sarcastic, but "welcome to the real world."

Each of us has to decide from the day we purchase throughout our ownership if our timeshare usage as it exists when we use it is worth the costs we've paid, knowing that usage and costs can and will change.  What's right for one may not be right for another, what matters most for one may not matter most for another.  On this particular issue of resale devaluation, it's obvious that you and I will never come to a meeting of the minds.  I understand your point of view but it's not one I share with respect to my ownership.


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## sparty

Dave M said:


> See this quote at several MVCI web pages (including this one) (log-in required):



Sorry my question wasn't very detailed.  My understanding is starting July 26th you can start reserving *2010* weeks.. 

What was confusing me is some of the MVCI stuff like the points chart shows 2011 points requirements but not 2010 points requirements.

I want to test the system out ASAP as a Premier member...


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## winger

Numismatist said:


> ...
> 
> Once I join, I'm locked in to the points they say it's worth _right now_ instead of potentially more at a later date?


Of course, that is how it works.

Case in point.  I only get 110,000 MRP's if I choose to turn in my Manor Club week every year.  That NEVER changes, regardless what happens on the redemption side (pts required for hotel stays, travel package, etc.) or to my resort's annual maintenance fee.


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## californiagirl

camachinist said:


> I
> I assume everyone got their e-mail from MVCI as I'm always late to that party, just having received it.



What email???  But then I never received the Gift of Time email either.:annoyed:


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## camachinist

I got like five GOT e-mails 



> Developer-direct purchasers of Marriott timeshares are aware of, have been subject to, an extreme devaluation on the resale market for practically the life of their ownerships.



Agreed, and, at my resort, resale values have dropped 50% or more in the last two years versus a relatively stable price in the 5 years prior, since our developer purchase, likely due to the economy. My concern is that some MBA at Marriott has cooked up a scheme to capitalize on that dynamic to profit Marriott at the expense of current owners. The more I read, especially about the inefficiencies and perceived inequities in this 'new' system, the more cynical I'm becoming. This isn't really news, since, as a regular Marriott hotel user, I've noted a decline in quality of service over the last four-six years as well. Interesting how customer perception is a moving target 

IMO, if Marriott had wanted to impliment a points system, it should be completely handled within MARSHA or the MVCI branded portals. I was flabbergasted that it is to become just another II overlay and an opaque one (no online functionality) at that. Like I said elsewhere, when pigs fly.


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## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> I feel sure there are more like you than me, and I don't doubt in the long run that my access to inventory will become very limited thanks to many converting to points, but I will not convert and pay the extortion. one other thing you fail t factor in is the owners who hqave prime seasons, prime fixed weeks, people who use their home week almost every year who will not convert. If they don't put their weeks into points pool, you can own one million points and NVEVER trade for one of those prime weeks. Most who convert will have weak trading weeks and see this as a way to get access to better inventory. If the best inventory remains with the weeks owners, you can buy every point Marriott has for sale and rarely end up staying in prime weeks.
> 
> By the way, you refuse to address the cost of stolen points in the exchange expense comparison. II charges $89 a year, Marriott charges charges $76 more per year per year . II charges $149 for an exchange, so on the surface II costs $73 more for an exchange. When you factor in the points Marriott steals every time you deposit your week, it can easily be points which you pay $200 for annually or more. Take the $200 in point theft minus the $73 more II seems to chare, and you are $127 cheaper exchanging through II. Then you bring up lock-off fees with II as though marriott doesn't skim additional points there too, but we know that they do. Add up the points you will pay for a week in a 2 bed room and compare it to the amount of points Marriott charges for a studio and a one bed room and you will see that yes you do pay a fee to Mariott to stay in lock-offs, and it is often (if not always) more than II charges for the same thing. So yes you can exchange through II and lock-off weeks through II cheaper than using Marriott points when you factor in the annual Marriot fee and the cost of the points Marriott charges to exchange and lock off. The difference is that II is honest and upfront about what they charge members to exchange and lock-off, Marriott on the other hand skims and steals points from every transaction hiding the true cost of using points for exchanges and lock-offs.That is what TUG is here for, we point out marriott's hidden point charges to all who are willing read and listen.




You still don't understand the system.  I will join.  I will have the same exact options that you do, except that my WEEKS exchange through II will be cheaper.  I can lock off my two weeks and make 4 Marriott to Marriott WEEKS exchanges through II for $165.  It currently costs me $675 to do that in the current system. 

I will never experience a devaluation unless I choose to use points.  I will only use points if it is to my advantage to do so.  I have already created a spreasheet by resort that allows me to capture the full value of my current weeks through the POINTS system by trading a combination of cash nights and Sun-Thu stays.  If the inventory is there that is where my future business will go.  If the inventory is not there I will continue to trade WEEKS in II like I always have.  I will have some risk in the first year, but the extra 800 points and the Marriott owned inventory will make a good exchange more likely for me in year 1 than the old system without having to wait to see the result.

That does not mean that I like the new system.  I would rather stay with the current one, but being a realist to me means following the system, not raging against the machine.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> A timeshare isn't a car.  It's a timeshare.  I expect different things from a purchase of a car than a purchase of timeshare, because the market-driven forces lead me to those different expectations.
> 
> Developer-direct purchasers of Marriott timeshares are aware of, have been subject to, an extreme devaluation on the resale market for practically the life of their ownerships.  Here on TUG they've been pointing out for years that the contracts simply do not support any expectation of a return on investment dollars.  It appears that with the advent of the Points system that non-support will now affect external resale purchasers, *as sellers*, as well.  I don't mean this in any way insulting or sarcastic, but "welcome to the real world."
> 
> Each of us has to decide from the day we purchase throughout our ownership if our timeshare usage as it exists when we use it is worth the costs we've paid, knowing that usage and costs can and will change.  What's right for one may not be right for another, what matters most for one may not matter most for another.  On this particular issue of resale devaluation, it's obvious that you and I will never come to a meeting of the minds.  I understand your point of view but it's not one I share with respect to my ownership.



I am not questioning whether you feel what you paid for your timeshare gave you a good value. I am asking you if you really feel good about giving your business and hard earned dollars (at least mine are hard earned) to a company that shows their appreciation for past purchases from them by specifically trying to destroy the value of the product they sold you?  Can you name one other company that you do business with that operates in such a manner? Can you really justify anything they do as a way to make profit? Was Bernie Madoff a good businessman since he made a lot of money for years even though he did it at his customer's expense? Was Enron a great company? Does anything done in any fashion to make a profit no matter who loses constitute an acceptable way to do business.

To forgive anything and everything Marriott does, even when it negativelly affects the value of what you own, and the money you can get for the product they sold you is something that is uncomprehensible to me. I do business with companies I trust and who treat me well. Cheat me once shame on them, cheat me twice shame on me. To me the way Marriott treats it's former customers is not the real world, it is the Twilight Zone.


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## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> You still don't understand the system.  I will join.  I will have the same exact options that you do, except that my WEEKS exchange through II will be cheaper.  I can lock off my two weeks and make 4 Marriott to Marriott WEEKS exchanges through II for $165.  It currently costs me $675 to do that in the current system.
> 
> I will never experience a devaluation unless I choose to use points.  I will only use points if it is to my advantage to do so.  I have already created a spreasheet by resort that allows me to capture the full value of my current weeks through the POINTS system by trading a combination of cash nights and Sun-Thu stays.  If the inventory is there that is where my future business will go.  If the inventory is not there I will continue to trade WEEKS in II like I always have.  I will have some risk in the first year, but the extra 800 points and the Marriott owned inventory will make a good exchange more likely for me in year 1 than the old system without having to wait to see the result.
> 
> That does not mean that I like the new system.  I would rather stay with the current one, but being a realist to me means following the system, not raging against the machine.



My hat is off to you. If you can make the new system work to your advantage, that is fantastic. Don't forget to factor in the points skimmed into your spreadsheet, and if you do that and it still works that is great.. 

I will cut my nose off to spite my face if I feel wronged. If I lose access to inventory and if my week become worthless, I will let that happen before i pay them a dollar of extortion. They will not profit on me after devaluing what I own, forcing me to buy points to continue to make like for like trades, charge me $1995 to convert to points, then charge anyone I sell my week to at least that much to retain what I already paid for. Jst because they can hurt my value and my access to inventory doesn't mean that I will pay them money because they have me over a barrel. They might make billions on the points program, but it won't be from any money I paid them.


----------



## wuv pooh

gmarine said:


> Rights you dont have ?  You have the right to vote your opinion. Marriott is telling you that if you join you must give up that right. If you dont see anything wrong with that then there isnt anything Marriott could do that you would think is wrong.
> 
> You seem to be Marriott's dream customer and no matter what they do you will go along with it. And your enititled to that opinion. That is unless Marriott tells you your not.



It is kind of like being a Republican in the District of Columbia.  You can vote, but does it matter?  The true vote is with your feet.  Anyway, I am not giving up my right to vote.  I am giving up my right to vote against the interests of the the point system and any attempt to disaffiliate my resorts from Marriott *while I am a member of the points system.* 

That seems reasonable to me.  If I want to vote against the interest of the points system then I will revoke my enrollment and vote as I choose.  You are saying you should be allowed to enjoy the benefits of the exchange company while at the same time voting against it.

People are so silly on this thread.  Everything that is not related to the specific occupancy under the real estate deed of your condiminium is already at the whim of Marriott - points, rentals, exchanges, lock offs, fees, you name it.  You gave up those rights long ago, whether you know it or not.  If you believed your salesmen then shame on you.  They can never take your occupancy right away from you, which is why they cannot compel you to join the new system.  If you vote out Marriott as the management company you will still have the right to occupy it under the new management company, but everything else will change.  I cannot see any scenario where I would keep my condo interest if Marriott was not the management company so it does not matter to me.  I will use the system to my benefit and sell if it is no longer a benefit.  Everything else is just bluster to me.  It sounds good, but there is no good outcome that I can see.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> I am not questioning whether you feel what you paid for your timeshare gave you a good value. I am asking you if you really feel good about giving your business and hard earned dollars (at least mine are hard earned) to a company that shows their appreciation for past purchases from them by specifically trying to destroy the value of the product they sold you?  Can you name one other company that you do business with that operates in such a manner? Can you really justify anything they do as a way to make profit? Was Bernie Madoff a good businessman since he made a lot of money for years even though he did it at his customer's expense? Was Enron a great company? Does anything done in any fashion to make a profit no matter who loses constitute an acceptable way to do business.
> 
> To forgive anything and everything Marriott does, even when it negativelly affects the value of what you own, and the money you can get for the product they sold you is something that is uncomprehensible to me. I do business with companies I trust and who treat me well. Cheat me once shame on them, cheat me twice shame on me. To me the way Marriott treats it's frmer customers is not the real world, it is the Twilight Zone.



But we see this all so differently!  I don't expect any company, including Marriott, to put their emphasis on protecting my individual ownership beyond what they're required if by doing so they will be foregoing an opportunity to enhance their business.  If they're giving me what they're contractually obligated to give me, then they're upholding their end of our business relationship.  If they offer me a product, the responsibility for making that product's terms&conditions available to me lies with them.  If I choose to accept the product, the responsibility for understanding the implications of those t&c's lies with me.

I don't figure that I have to "forgive" anything Marriott does as long as I'm getting USAGE value from my Marriott timeshare, because that's what the contracts DO stipulate, that the value in a Marriott timeshare purchase is in its usage.  I knew up front what my costs were and how the purchase should have worked for me as a Weeks owner, and the way I see it, I got the usage that I expected based on the terms of the existing contract, which I knew could be subject to some change.

Now with the change of an Enrolled Points option, I know what my costs will be and I have a general idea of how to read the fine print to determine if the usage value will be better for me with the option or if I stay with the Weeks system.  I'm leaning towards Enrolled Points.  That doesn't mean everyone should - "what's right for one may not be right for another."

Marriott isn't my friend or my doting grandfather who should protect me.  They're a service provider.  It's that simple to me.


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> My hat is off to you. If you can make the new system work to your advantage, that is fantastic. Don't forget to factor in the points skimmed into your spreadsheet, and if you do that and it still works that is great..
> 
> I will cut my nose off to spite my face if I feel wronged. If I lose access to inventory and if my week become worthless, I will let that happen before i pay them a dollar of extortion. They will not profit on me after devaluing what I own, forcing me to buy points to continue to make like for like trades, charge me $1995 to convert to points, then charge anyone I sell my week to at least that much to retain what I already paid for. Jst because they can hurt my value and my access to inventory doesn't mean that I will pay them money because they have me over a barrel. They might make billions on the points program, but it won't be from any money I paid them.



I actually admire your dedication to principles.  Once the smoke clears maybe you will think differently.  I do not see it as right or wrong but just different.  I was a big loser when DVC left II, I am a big loser under this change because I gamed the system for great trades.  However, I also realize that they gravy train does not go on forever.  I have earned back the value of my weeks so I have no regrets going forward.

As far as the new system, by my calculations I can realize from 60% to 101% of the value I used to get under the old system.  Using straight points for 7 days is always a loser, but using Sun-Thur stays with cash weekend stays that earn MR points can bump me up to over full value depending on the rental rates and my Platinum status.  The actual result will depend on whether I can reserve the inventory at 10 months and whether I can get cash reservations.  Time will tell, but I have nothing to lose by continuing with the game.  Sometime in the near future I am also betting that they create a form of points flexchange that will really open up some interesting opportunities.

I wish you well in your decision.


----------



## brianfox

*Two really interesting questions*

While trying to explain the proposed point system to my wife, two important questions came up, and I don't think they have been addressed yet.


1) Can a person get a week through points, then exchange it in II?
People who don't already own Marriott can only buy points going forward.  I can't believe they will be restricted to just a handful of Marriott resorts to use - after all, they probably are forced to pay the "Club Dues" which includes an Interval membership as well.  What is a point-owner supposed to do with an Interval account, other than Getaways?  So, what if someone (maybe a point-only owner) wants a desirable non-Marriott resort through II?  The way I see it, they can either cash in enough points for a strong Marriott trading week and exchange it through II, or cash in only a few points for a poor Marriot trader and attempt to exchange during Flex.  If Flex will still offer a decent pool of properties in the near future (and if the trader is willing to constantly check the available properties), wouldn't it be a good play to cash in the points you get for your single decent week and use them to reserve several weeks at cheaper units, then deposit them?

Looking at another scenario, let's say you own a 2BR DSV II.  In the past, you might have split the unit and exchanged the Studio during Flex for another 1BR or 2BR, and still had your original 1BR to trade for something else.  Under points, couldn't you split your current unit (for free), take points for the Studio and cash them in for, say, a Willow Ridge studio (much cheaper), then exchange the Willow Ridge in II during Flex?  You understand what I'm getting at.  

If Marriott allows your point-earned week to be exchanged, then it sounds like there is potential to "game" the Points system.  EDIT: By "gaming" I mean finding a way to pretty consistently trade-up beyond your unit value.


2) Where are the MF the new Point-only owners going toward?
Disney is and has been a point-only club.  Clearly, the points are used for maintenance of the resorts.  However, Marriott has been week based for the longest time.  I imagine the vast majority of all Marriott weeks are already owned, and MF are already being paid for those.  So as new point-only members come on-line, what is their MF paying for?  And as I understand it, new points are not purchased against a "home resort" (unlike Disney), so how are property taxes paid?  And will only week-owners face *Special Assessments*, or will point-owners need to share that burden?


----------



## camachinist

> What email??? But then I never received the Gift of Time email either.



LOL, I just got another one. 

They must be reading my skepticism by telepathic means


----------



## winger

PamK said:


> The $165-$199 annual dues include ...exchange to timeshares using an internal trade and Interval's annual fee. *It does not include Interval exchange fees*. There was some confusion over this fact and I had it clarified today with Marriott.


I am a little confused.

So, if I enrolled, say next year, I decide to NOT turn redeem/turn in my deeded week for Destination Club points; rather, I request a week at another Marriott using Interval International.  In this instance, the II Marriott-to-Marriott fee would be covered by the Destination Club annual fee ($165-199), correct?


----------



## winger

Numismatist said:


> ...
> 
> Once I join, I'm locked in to the points they say it's worth _right now_ instead of potentially more at a later date?


Of course, that is how it works.

Case in point.  I only get 110,000 MRP's if I choose to turn in my Manor Club week every year.  That NEVER changes, regardless what happens on the redemption side (pts required for hotel stays, travel package, etc.) or to my resort's annual maintenance fee.


----------



## brianfox

winger said:


> I am a little confused.
> 
> So, if I enrolled, say next year, I decide to NOT turn redeem/turn in my deeded week for Destination Club points; rather, I request a week at another Marriott using Interval International.  In this instance, the II Marriott-to-Marriott fee would be covered by the Destination Club annual fee ($165-199), correct?



I don't think so.  Other than the II membership fee, I think any non-point based transaction made through Interval would be paid by you as usual.

I think the $169 just covers transactions that would normally be done though Marriott (i.e. split-fees and point redemption).  The fact that point redemption possibly results in Marriott doing an II exchange under the covers is not something you would pay for.  By that, I mean you take points for your week, and decide to cash in those points for a different Marriott.  If they have no inventory, they will do an exchange request on your behalf, which you would not pay for.


----------



## wuv pooh

brianfox said:


> I don't think so.  Other than the II membership fee, I think any non-point based transaction made through Interval would be paid by you as usual.
> 
> I think the $169 just covers transactions that would normally be done though Marriott (i.e. split-fees and point redemption).  The fact that point redemption possibly results in Marriott doing an II exchange under the covers is not something you would pay for.  By that, I mean you take points for your week, and decide to cash in those points for a different Marriott.  If they have no inventory, they will do an exchange request on your behalf, which you would not pay for.



No this is incorrect and one of the best benefits of enrolling.  Your fee will pay for II Marriott to Marriott internal WEEKS exchanges.  It will not pay if you choose a resort outside of Marriott.  From the webpage under enrolled owners (vs. point or weeks owners):

Exchange Types: Internal vs. External
There are two types of exchanges, and Interval International is your source for both:

Internal Exchange

Exchange your week at your home resort for another week at your home resort that’s in a different season or year or exchange during your same week, but travel to another Marriott Vacation Club Resort. 
*Enrolled Owners’ fees for internal exchanges are included in their Club Dues. *

External Exchange

What: Exchange your week at your home resort for another week at a non-Marriott Vacation Club Resort. Interval International can help you choose from over 2,500 affiliated resorts located in destinations throughout the world. Go to IntervalWorld.com to request your exchange. 
Fee: $139* to request travel within your country of residence; $154* to request travel outside your country of residence. *Please note: This is the fee if exchange is placed via IntervalWorld.com. Please note that Owners who place their exchange requests via a telephone call to Interval International will be charged an additional $10. Fees are listed in U.S. dollars, are subject to change, and vary by country of residence.


----------



## RandR

I'm a few hundred posts behind so forgive me is this was covered by someone.  I think that you of the biggest loses is to the trust that many owners will have in Marriott.  There were many Marriott loyalists who now feel betrayed.  The question is where will it stop?  How will they change the program in the future?  

Some people have figured out that if you stay Sun - Thurs you get a better bang for your buck.  Well, don't you think many people will figure that out and then the demand will be way up?  Or Marriott can just realign how the points are assigned to different days of the week.  As long as the points for the whole week do not change they are fine.  

Example: Fri - Sat - 300 pts/night
             Sun - Thursday - 150 pts/night
             Total points per week - 1350

Reallocated week: Fri - Sat - 225 pts/night
                         Sun - Thurs - 180 pts/night
                         Total points per week - 1350

Completely legal but they will have blown up a loophole.  Who knows....Marriott may have even set it up this way to start to draw legacy owners in.  A conspiracy theory of course but most would not have thought Marriott would have put out a program like this to begin with.

Some will say to just join and if they change again I can just leave....but it will cost me $1495 which is a lot to bite off if they make further changes in a year or two.


----------



## brianfox

RandR said:


> I'm a few hundred posts behind so forgive me is this was covered by someone.  I think that you of the biggest loses is to the trust that many owners will have in Marriott.  There were many Marriott loyalists who now feel betrayed.  The question is where will it stop?  How will they change the program in the future?
> 
> Some people have figured out that if you stay Sun - Thurs you get a better bang for your buck.  Well, don't you think many people will figure that out and then the demand will be way up?  Or Marriott can just realign how the points are assigned to different days of the week.  As long as the points for the whole week do not change they are fine.
> 
> Example: Fri - Sat - 300 pts/night
> Sun - Thursday - 150 pts/night
> Total points per week - 1350
> 
> Reallocated week: Fri - Sat - 225 pts/night
> Sun - Thurs - 180 pts/night
> Total points per week - 1350
> 
> Completely legal but they will have blown up a loophole.  Who knows....Marriott may have even set it up this way to start to draw legacy owners in.  A conspiracy theory of course but most would not have thought Marriott would have put out a program like this to begin with.
> 
> Some will say to just join and if they change again I can just leave....but it will cost me $1495 which is a lot to bite off if they make further changes in a year or two.



As long as they leave the total points for a week alone, I don't have see any problem with making Sun-Thu "cheaper".  I think that's Marriott's way of making sure entire weeks are fully utilized.  In your example, they believe that the average person is twice as likely to only want Sat-Sun as they are to want Sun-Thu.  If every day cost the same number of points, then there would be a glut of Sun-Thu available.  Then the people who want entire weeks will be out of luck.  Disney also places a higher value on more popular days of the week.  Seems essential to make things work.


----------



## CapriciousC

wuv pooh said:


> I can see no reason not to enroll unless you are an occupy only owner of a fixed week, a weeks owner who maintains an II account but only does something once every few years and is happy if they can reserve any week in season, a resale owner who does not want to pay $1,995, or if the $700 fee is something you cannot afford.



For us, the main reason not to enroll is that I don't want to pay $700 up front AND an annual fee if I can't exchange into the European resorts.  With the exception of Hawaii, most of the US resorts don't really appeal to us.  We actually only stay at Waiohai maybe once every three years - the other years we exchange for Marriott or II resorts overseas.  Several years ago we exchanged for a resort in Uruguay that was lovely - we can't do something like that with the new program.


----------



## RandR

brianfox said:


> As long as they leave the total points for a week alone, I don't have see any problem with making Sun-Thu "cheaper".  I think that's Marriott's way of making sure entire weeks are fully utilized.  In your example, they believe that the average person is twice as likely to only want Sat-Sun as they are to want Sun-Thu.  If every day cost the same number of points, then there would be a glut of Sun-Thu available.  Then the people who want entire weeks will be out of luck.  Disney also places a higher value on more popular days of the week.  Seems essential to make things work.



I completely agree.  But, some on TUG have said that one way to game the system will be to just stay during Sun - Thurs.  This way you can stretch out your points more.  Since right now there is a big difference between the two, that makes since.  What I am saying is that Marriott can easily reduce that loophole by making the point values closer together.  Still cheaper to stay Sun - Thurs but you can't game the system anymore.


----------



## rsackett

RandR said:


> I'm a few hundred posts behind so forgive me is this was covered by someone.  I think that you of the biggest loses is to the trust that many owners will have in Marriott.  There were many Marriott loyalists who now feel betrayed.  The question is where will it stop?  How will they change the program in the future?
> 
> Some people have figured out that if you stay Sun - Thurs you get a better bang for your buck.  Well, don't you think many people will figure that out and then the demand will be way up?  Or Marriott can just realign how the points are assigned to different days of the week.  As long as the points for the whole week do not change they are fine.
> 
> Example: Fri - Sat - 300 pts/night
> Sun - Thursday - 150 pts/night
> Total points per week - 1350
> 
> Reallocated week: Fri - Sat - 225 pts/night
> Sun - Thurs - 180 pts/night
> Total points per week - 1350
> 
> Completely legal but they will have blown up a loophole.  Who knows....Marriott may have even set it up this way to start to draw legacy owners in.  A conspiracy theory of course but most would not have thought Marriott would have put out a program like this to begin with.
> 
> Some will say to just join and if they change again I can just leave....but it will cost me $1495 which is a lot to bite off if they make further changes in a year or two.




DVC made just such a change last year.  many owners were unhappy about the change, but it was needed to make sure all nights are used.  I am sure that in the future Marriott will make adjustment like this as they are needed.

Ray


----------



## wuv pooh

RandR said:


> Completely legal but they will have blown up a loophole.  Who knows....Marriott may have even set it up this way to start to draw legacy owners in.  A conspiracy theory of course but most would not have thought Marriott would have put out a program like this to begin with.



It is not a conspiracy theory, you should expect it.  Marriott will have to balance the points with the actual demand.  So expect the values to change on a regular basis.

To me it looks like the weekends are way too expensive vs. the week, but I do not know the actual demand.  Or maybe it is easier for Marriott to rent weekend days for cash so they want as much breakage as possible to be on the weekend vs. weekdays.  Since Marriott can try to rent the breakage it is hard to know how things will change.  I would not make too many decisions on the point charts staying the same after 2012.


----------



## brianfox

RandR said:


> I completely agree.  But, some on TUG have said that one way to game the system will be to just stay during Sun - Thurs.  This way you can stretch out your points more.  Since right now there is a big difference between the two, that makes since.  What I am saying is that Marriott can easily reduce that loophole by making the point values closer together.  Still cheaper to stay Sun - Thurs but you can't game the system anymore.



But take Disney as an example - people can vow to only stay Sun-Thurs in that system, and it's is doing just fine.  I don't see it as gaming anything.  

For every person who only stays Sun-Thurs, there is an equal number of people who can only stay the weekend (probably more, in fact).

EDIT: I didn't see the other two posts regarding the DVC change.  That proves my point - the point cost will be balanced as time goes on to make sure all days are used.


----------



## wuv pooh

CapriciousC said:


> For us, the main reason not to enroll is that I don't want to pay $700 up front AND an annual fee if I can't exchange into the European resorts.  With the exception of Hawaii, most of the US resorts don't really appeal to us.  We actually only stay at Waiohai maybe once every three years - the other years we exchange for Marriott or II resorts overseas.  Several years ago we exchanged for a resort in Uruguay that was lovely - we can't do something like that with the new program.



You WILL be able to trade for European resorts exactly the same as today if you enroll.  Your annual fee will pay for WEEKS trades to Marriott European resorts that are not available in the POINTS program.  If you want to go to Europe you will reserve your week, deposit with II, and trade for no additional charge beyond your annual program fee.  Since it is not possible to exchange points for the European resorts today all owners will have to use II WEEKS.


----------



## brianfox

rsackett said:


> DVC made just such a change last year.  many owners were unhappy about the change, but it was needed to make sure all nights are used.  I am sure that in the future Marriott will make adjustment like this as they are needed.
> 
> Ray



Did DVC keep the cost of a total week the same, and just redistribute the daily points?  If so, that sounds reasonable.


----------



## SueDonJ

Hey Tombo, it turns out that there IS one thing that I'm less than thrilled with, but it took somebody else putting it into words for my brain to catch up.

It still doesn't mean that I expect Marriott to do something about leaving owners less than thrilled, though, or that it sways my decision to enroll.


----------



## jerseygirl

I don't have a dog in this fight, but as a Starwood/Hilton/Hyatt owner, I'm fascinated by the changes.  It doesn't seem that getting 5 days (Sun - Thursday) when you used to get 7 is "gaming the system."  I realize that some may have never been able to get a particular week due to trading power issues.  If that same population can now get 5 days, maybe it is a good deal for them.  But, I can't see how it's a good deal or "gaming the system" for those who used to get 7 days.  Does "gaming the system" mean making the best of a bad situation or am I just missing something?


----------



## timeos2

RandR said:


> I completely agree.  But, some on TUG have said that one way to game the system will be to just stay during Sun - Thurs.  This way you can stretch out your points more.  Since right now there is a big difference between the two, that makes since.  What I am saying is that Marriott can easily reduce that loophole by making the point values closer together.  Still cheaper to stay Sun - Thurs but you can't game the system anymore.



That is not a loophole but a very standard part of nearly every points system. Those early week days simply aren't as desirable for travelers so they tend to be discounted in points compared to Fri-Sun.   

A loophole is something usually unexpected that is discovered to be available. Say that for some reason if you deposit exactly 1286 points and request 6 days at a resort that usually is 4000 points for 7 days you can get it.  That would be a loophole, unplanned in the system and most likely plugged once discovered.


----------



## Stefa

wuv pooh said:


> You WILL be able to trade for European resorts exactly the same as today if you enroll.  Your annual fee will pay for WEEKS trades to Marriott European resorts that are not available in the POINTS program.  If you want to go to Europe you will reserve your week, deposit with II, and trade for no additional charge beyond your annual program fee.  Since it is not possible to exchange points for the European resorts today all owners will have to use II WEEKS.



Do enrolled weeks owners who want to trade internally have the option of browsing what is available?  

Do you have to commit to an internal or external trade?   If I deposie a week and request an internal trade can I change my mind and exchange into a non-Marriott?

How do they manage inventory?  How would these trades work?  Can you trade up in size or season?   How is trade power determined? 

Or would trading be the same as it has been only without the fee for an exchange into another Marriott?


----------



## Twinkstarr

brianfox said:


> But take Disney as an example - people can vow to only stay Sun-Thurs in that system, and it's is doing just fine.  I don't see it as gaming anything.
> 
> For every person who only stays Sun-Thurs, there is an equal number of people who can only stay the weekend (probably more, in fact).
> 
> EDIT: I didn't see the other two posts regarding the DVC change.  That proves my point - the point cost will be balanced as time goes on to make sure all days are used.



DVC has re-balanced points the last 2 yrs. Just about all our DVC trips include both Fri-Sat nights.
Pre-rebalancing I think I may have been the only person staying on my floor over the weekends! 

For week long trips the point total either stayed the same or went up a few points. The biggest decrease came in our long weekend trips, I think our usual MLK weekend(Thurs-Mon) trip went down at certain resorts by 20 pts.

Never did the Sun-Thurs deal myself, but where a lot of people got bit  were the ones who bought small contracts to get the 11 month window for certain times of the year(Beach Club for October for Epcot Food & Wine festival, VWL for 1st 2 weeks of December). 

We purchased a bit of a cushion when we bought both our contracts and work them by banking and borrowing, booking different size of units(2brs or 3brs).

Though I find it interesting that Marriott has put in a mechanism to stop what DVC'ers call "walking a reservation" ie dropping/adding days to get the exact days you want over a really busy season(NYE)  and/or for room categories that have really small # of units(Grand Villas at some resorts, AKV concierge level).


----------



## brianfox

Twinkstarr said:


> DVC has re-balanced points the last 2 yrs. Just Though I find it interesting that Marriott has put in a mechanism to stop what DVC'ers call "walking a reservation" ie dropping/adding days to get the exact days you want over a really busy season(NYE)  and/or for room categories that have really small # of units(Grand Villas at some resorts, AKV concierge level).



I'm not really following this one.  Can you give a better example?  How is Marriott preventing this?


----------



## rsackett

brianfox said:


> Did DVC keep the cost of a total week the same, and just redistribute the daily points?  If so, that sounds reasonable.



I do not own DVC.  As I understand their system they keep the same number of points for the resort the same and redistribute the points between weeks and days of the week to try to keep demand equal.

Ray


----------



## Twinkstarr

brianfox said:


> I'm not really following this one.  Can you give a better example?  How is Marriott preventing this?



Look at this thread:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124414


----------



## wuv pooh

Stefa said:


> Do enrolled weeks owners who want to trade internally have the option of browsing what is available?
> 
> Do you have to commit to an internal or external trade?   If I deposie a week and request an internal trade can I change my mind and exchange into a non-Marriott?
> 
> How do they manage inventory?  How would these trades work?  Can you trade up in size or season?   How is trade power determined?
> 
> Or would trading be the same as it has been only without the fee for an exchange into another Marriott?



1. The answer seems to be yes.  The Marriott webpage says you can log on and make requests through intervalworld.com and mentions a $10 fee if you talk to a human for external requests.

2. Yes.  If you add any external resorts to a request you have to pay II the additonal II trade fee even if you later accept a Marriott.  This is like today where you do not get the reduced Marriott internal rate if you include external resorts.

3. That is a big debate and no one seems to have a definitive answer.  Supposedly the points and weeks inventory are kept separate, but Marriott seems to have the ability to move inventory between the systems to satisfy requests.

4. Trading internal Marriott WEEKS through II will be exactly the same as today as far as trading power, up grades, etc.  What will change is that Marriott is no longer making inventory from its unsold weeks, MR points exchanges, rentals, etc. available in the WEEKS system.  Presumably this will mean less inventory for trade in WEEKS and provide fewer options for uptrades.  II will be working hard to get owners equivalent trades.

You will experience the change in trade weeks available regardless if you enroll or not.  Weeks owners (those who do not enroll) and Enrolled owners will trade in exactly the same manner for WEEKS through II.

If you enroll you will also have an addtional option to trade through points.  The value in points that you are given in trade is about 7% less on average than the points required to trade for the same week, so you lose something to gain the flexibility to book partial weeks.

If you convert your enrolled weeks to points they will be removed from the weeks inventory and placed into the points inventory.


----------



## hipslo

*13 month window in points - how does it work?*

Anyone have any thoughts whether this would apply in the same way as it currently does in weeks, across DIFFERENT properties?  

For example, would it be feasible for a premier plus owner to reserve a couple of days at a low point cost resort 13 months in advance of the first check in day, and then, without any gap in days, make a further reservation at the desired "target" resort for the desired high demand week, thus getting the points owner a jump of a couple of days over other points owners for the prime week at the prime resort, without having to burn the points required to make the reservation at the desired resort?  

Or would these sorts of reservations all need to be made at the SAME resort?  

I have looked at the legal docs and website descriptions on this issue and can't seem to find any guidance either way.


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> Anyone have any thoughts whether this would apply in the same way as it currently does in weeks, across DIFFERENT properties?
> 
> For example, would it be feasible for a premier plus owner to reserve a couple of days at a low point cost resort 13 months in advance of the first check in day, and then, without any gap in days, make a further reservation at the desired "target" resort for the desired high demand week, thus getting the points owner a jump of a couple of days over other points owners for the prime week at the prime resort, without having to burn the points required to make the reservation at the desired resort?
> 
> Or would these sorts of reservations all need to be made at the SAME resort?
> 
> I have looked at the legal docs and website descriptions on this issue and can't seem to find any guidance either way.



I have to change my answer.  Premier Plus people can do 1 day at 13 months, so that is a great question.  Other members are restricted to 1 day reservations at 10 months.  Since points members can call in on Tuesday for reservations I would think they automatically get the jump on weeks owners without having to go to another resort to do it.


----------



## Stefa

wuv pooh said:


> 3. That is a big debate and no one seems to have a definitive answer.  Supposedly the points and weeks inventory are kept separate, but Marriott seems to have the ability to move inventory between the systems to satisfy requests.



Is the weeks inventory that is deposited by enrolled owners kept separate from the inventory deposited by non-enrolled owners?


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> No, no one is allowed to make daily reservations until 10 months.  12 and 13 month reservations have to be made in 7 day increments.  If you book 7 days and then cancel individual days your points go into the 'holding' account and can only be used within 60 days and cannot be banked.



That is not correct, premier plus can make daily reservations 13 months in advance.


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## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> That is not correct, premier plus can make daily reservations 13 months in advance.



I see that and changed my answer.  That is a HUGE advantage for those guys    Since points can reserve on Tuesday of the week do they need to go to the trouble of booking another resort?


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## banquopack

Stefa said:


> Is the weeks inventory that is deposited by enrolled owners kept separate from the inventory deposited by non-enrolled owners?



No, no matter what system you're in, if you deposit a week they all go in together and the group competes together.


----------



## hipslo

wuv pooh said:


> I see that and changed my answer.  That is a HUGE advantage for those guys    Since points can reserve on Tuesday of the week do they need to go to the trouble of booking another resort?



I am thinking of a points owner that wants to book a prime week, say, starting on saturday, and they want to get a jump on other points owners, and they dont want to spend "expensive" points at that resort to do so, and perhaps they want to call in BEFORE the preceding tuesday, to really get a good jump  - so, can they reserve 5 days (beginning the monday prior to the desired saturday) at a cheapo, off season resort, to get a jump, much more cheaply?


----------



## floyddl

wuv pooh said:


> I see that and changed my answer.  That is a HUGE advantage for those guys    Since points can reserve on Tuesday of the week do they need to go to the trouble of booking another resort?



That is a huge advantage and will result in a lot of breakage.  It will keep a lot of weeks from being booked.  Hilton requires a minimum of 3 days to be reserved up until the 60 day window.


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## SueDonJ

Wasn't there something about Holding Account, points for cancelled/amended reservations being put into a Holding Account, with restrictions for re-booking those points?  Not sure but I think I remember something ...


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Wasn't there something about Holding Account, points for cancelled/amended reservations being put into a Holding Account, with restrictions for re-booking those points?  Not sure but I think I remember something ...



There is but I am thinking of a scenario that involves simply "throwing away" those points to ensure the desired prime week reservation.  It could potentially work with the right combination of prime week and another undesireable resort in the off season where the point cost to reserve mid week is low enought that it wouldnt really be a big issue, potentially.  But only if consecutive reservations at DIFFERENT resorts at 13 months are permitted (as they are currently in weeks).


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## wsrobinson

jgalt19808 said:


> I checked the number of points for my unit on Sunday , 6/20/2010 and the number was  2600. Today, when I was preparing to enroll, my point value was listed as 1925. A MVC owner representative told me that all other owners at my resort/season had been awarded 1925 points and that this was the first time they had encountered this problem. Unfortunately, I did not print the 2600 point page.
> 
> HAs this happened to anyone else?



Yes, when I first looked I had 5750 then it was revised downward to 4200.


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## janna1

In the new Marriott point system, can you brower points from other owner? What option you have if you don't have enough points for a resort that you want to go? What option you have if you have extra points left?


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> But we see this all so differently!  I don't expect any company, including Marriott, to put their emphasis on protecting my individual ownership beyond what they're required if by doing so they will be foregoing an opportunity to enhance their business.  If they're giving me what they're contractually obligated to give me, then they're upholding their end of our business relationship.  If they offer me a product, the responsibility for making that product's terms&conditions available to me lies with them.  If I choose to accept the product, the responsibility for understanding the implications of those t&c's lies with me..



There is a BIG difference between protecting your ownership and specifically trying to devalue what you own to make profits for Marriott at previous purchaser's expense. We have been told that Marriott was coming out with a program that will penalize if not kill resales, well they weren't bluffing, here it is. What they are doing affects you and what you own. You own a resale, whether you purchased direct or resale. The dollar value of your week(s) is what you can get if you sell it, and you will be selling a resale. So Marriott is taking money out o your pocket to line theirs, and that is fine by you. As I asked earlier, what other company do you do business with who employs a similar strategy?



SueDonJ said:


> I don't figure that I have to "forgive" anything Marriott does as long as I'm getting USAGE value from my Marriott timeshare, because that's what the contracts DO stipulate, that the value in a Marriott timeshare purchase is in its usage.  I knew up front what my costs were and how the purchase should have worked for me as a Weeks owner, and the way I see it, I got the usage that I expected based on the terms of the existing contract, which I knew could be subject to some change..



If Marriott was up front in the sales process and said we sell our weeks for $25,000. but once you buy it we will do everything in our power to make sure that you can't sell what you buy from us for more than $8000 because we don't like competing with resales then everyone would know and be informed buyers. If they said we will implement plans and rules that give weeks purchased from us rights that won't transfer to resale owners, then you purchased with full disclosure. if they emphasized that you will get usage per our contract because we are required by law to do so, but anything else we assured you that you would get in this presentation is null and void because we tell you lies to get you to buy, but the only thing that actually counts is what is on the contract, then you knew and bought anyway. If they said we will do anything in our power to make sure resales have almost no access to exchange inventory and we will do our best to kill resales so that their values are as close to zero as possible, then the majority of buyers would really understand what they are being sold and what the item they are purchasing will be worth after they sign the contract.

You now know that Marriott has this as their goal and yet you don't begrudge their sales tactics at all even though killing resale values kills the value of what you own. How many other buyers would buy if they knew this before signing on the dotted line?

In addition you have no problem doing business with a company who's sales reps assured that you could easily exchange for anywhere at anytime. It doesn't matter what you were told and led to believe because all that matters is the contract, not how the company will bend or break rules and laws to make a sale? The salesmen can lie daily with Marriott's blessings and  that is OK as long as marriott honors the contract? You can buy into a weeks exchange program basing your purchase on using the weeks exchange progam, but Marriott can make that worthless by inventing a new points program, and that is acceptable as long as they honor what they are required to do per the contract? We really do see this differently.





SueDonJ said:


> Marriott isn't my friend or my doting grandfather who should protect me.  They're a service provider.  It's that simple to me.



I would prefer to do business with a company that I at least feel like I could I trust rather than one I know from past experience I can't trust. As you said with Marriott you have to read every line of the fine print because you are absolutelly sure that they are trying to get over on you as they have before and will again. That is the same kind of trust you get when you buy from Wastegate, but Marriott acts like they are a reputable timeshare company. Their latest program proves that too was a lie.

Please don't call Marriott a service provider, they are as bad as Wastegate. They use lies to sell and then do what they need to in order to not get sued. They have stagnant sales so they invent a new program that you must join or you weeks will not do what you purchased them to do and what you did with them for years. They charge people you sell your week to $2000 to keep a week in points, the same week you already paid $1995 to put into points. They give you 4500 annual points when you deposit yur week, but they charge others 5000 points to stay in the week you deposited making more profit on those who convert. 

After thinking about it, I guess in a way Marriott does provide a service. The service Marriott provides is separating their loyal owners from their cash while devaluing their purchase, and doing it all with a smile.


----------



## RedDogSD

wuv pooh said:


> What will change is that Marriott is no longer making inventory from its unsold weeks, MR points exchanges, rentals, etc. available in the WEEKS system.  Presumably this will mean less inventory for trade in WEEKS and provide fewer options for uptrades.  II will be working hard to get owners equivalent trades.
> 
> .



No way.  I bought this when this was being spread on the board a few days ago, and I finally realized that this is wrong.  Marriott cannot create new demand out of thin air.  They are not going to have 1 million new points owners overnight AND the point owners that they get are going to try for a lot less prime weeks because they could not afford the 7000 points for a prime week in Maui.  So, unlike in the past where every Marriott week owner would try to get the top weeks, now....many of them will try for less exciting weeks because they want to stretch their points.  

So, what will Marriott do with the rest of their prime inventory?  They will try to rent it.  Yeah....and?  They have always been trying to rent their prime inventory.  They charge too much.  THey have to.  It would take away from their brand name if they did not charge 3x as much for a 2 bedroom Villa as opposed to a Hotel Room.  So, they can try renting until they are blue in the face.  They will not get that many takers at those prices.  

So, now what?  Marriott has exhausted rentals and their points owners, and they still have lots of inventory.  Where will it go?  The only place that Marriott can drop it where they do not get egg on their face (by renting it cheap) is Interval.  So, Interval weeks will still get plenty of inventory for the forseeable future.


----------



## Numismatist

RedDogSD said:


> No way.  I bought this when this was being spread on the board a few days ago, and I finally realized that this is wrong.  Marriott cannot create new demand out of thin air.  They are not going to have 1 million new points owners overnight AND the point owners that they get are going to try for a lot less prime weeks because they could not afford the 7000 points for a prime week in Maui.  So, unlike in the past where every Marriott week owner would try to get the top weeks, now....many of them will try for less exciting weeks because they want to stretch their points.
> 
> So, what will Marriott do with the rest of their prime inventory?  They will try to rent it.  Yeah....and?  They have always been trying to rent their prime inventory.  They charge too much.  THey have to.  It would take away from their brand name if they did not charge 3x as much for a 2 bedroom Villa as opposed to a Hotel Room.  So, they can try renting until they are blue in the face.  They will not get that many takers at those prices.
> 
> So, now what?  Marriott has exhausted rentals and their points owners, and they still have lots of inventory.  Where will it go?  The only place that Marriott can drop it where they do not get egg on their face (by renting it cheap) is Interval.  So, Interval weeks will still get plenty of inventory for the forseeable future.



I WANT to like this...I really do.


----------



## wsrobinson

wuv pooh said:


> I actually admire your dedication to principles.  Once the smoke clears maybe you will think differently.  I do not see it as right or wrong but just different.  I was a big loser when DVC left II, I am a big loser under this change because I gamed the system for great trades.  However, I also realize that they gravy train does not go on forever.  I have earned back the value of my weeks so I have no regrets going forward.
> 
> As far as the new system, by my calculations I can realize from 60% to 101% of the value I used to get under the old system.  Using straight points for 7 days is always a loser, but using Sun-Thur stays with cash weekend stays that earn MR points can bump me up to over full value depending on the rental rates and my Platinum status.  The actual result will depend on whether I can reserve the inventory at 10 months and whether I can get cash reservations.  Time will tell, but I have nothing to lose by continuing with the game.  Sometime in the near future I am also betting that they create a form of points flexchange that will really open up some interesting opportunities.
> 
> I wish you well in your decision.



That's an excellent point that seems to get lost in all this.  By staying Sun-Thurs, I can stay 9 nights in my same season/view category.  Dropping down to GV I can stay 12 nights.  If I trade my week,  7 nights max.  So, there is some value there.


----------



## CapriciousC

wuv pooh said:


> You WILL be able to trade for European resorts exactly the same as today if you enroll.  Your annual fee will pay for WEEKS trades to Marriott European resorts that are not available in the POINTS program.  If you want to go to Europe you will reserve your week, deposit with II, and trade for no additional charge beyond your annual program fee.  Since it is not possible to exchange points for the European resorts today all owners will have to use II WEEKS.



But why would I pay a $700 enrollment fee when I can already do everything I want to do through Interval?  I'm not saying that the plan is inherently bad, or that it wouldn't be beneficial for some, I'm just disputing the fact that it's advantageous to everyone who is interested in exchanging.  Aside from the enrollment fee, the annual fee for the new points program is more than twice what we pay annually for Interval membership.  

The way I see it, joining the new program means that I'm paying more money for options that I don't want.  I don't want to do shorter vacations, and I don't want to trade my Waiohai week for another US Marriott resort.  

We actually go to Orlando five to six times a year, and always stay at Vacation Club resorts, but we just pay out of pocket.  In the last nine months we've booked two bedroom units at three different Orlando properties, and we've never paid more than $160 a night (and that was during Thanksgiving week, Christmas week, and Spring Break).  We currently have a reservation for a one-bedroom villa at Grande Vista for the last week of July for $110 a night.  I'm not going to trade my Waiohai week or roll it to points to use at Grande Vista when they're practically giving rooms away.


----------



## floyddl

wsrobinson said:


> That's an excellent point that seems to get lost in all this.  By staying Sun-Thurs, I can stay 9 nights in my same season/view category.  Dropping down to GV I can stay 12 nights.  If I trade my week,  7 nights max.  So, there is some value there.



That is true and a silver lining that Marriott will almost surely address.  I haven't seen it identified on the points chart but I would have to assume that holiday that fall on Sun-Thurs will be valued with a weekend rate.  No way that you get a holiday for a base rate.


----------



## wsrobinson

floyddl said:


> That is true and a silver lining that Marriott will almost surely address.  I haven't seen it identified on the points chart but I would have to assume that holiday that fall on Sun-Thurs will be valued with a weekend rate.  No way that you get a holiday for a base rate.



At this point that is not the case. I just looked at point values surrounding July 4 at Grande Ocean for an OF room.  July 2-3 (Sat-Sun) were 1325/night but weekdays were 550.  I bet they change this when they figure it out.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> There is a BIG difference between protecting your ownership and specifically trying to devalue what you own to make profits for Marriott at previous purchaser's expense. We have been told for years thatMarriott was coming out with a program that will penalize if not kill resales. You own a resale, whether you purchased direct or resale, the dollar value of what you have now is what you can get if you sell it, and you will be selling a resale. So Marriott is taking money out o your pocket to line theirs, and that is fine by you. As I asked earlier, what other company do you do business with who employs a similar strategy?
> 
> 
> 
> If Marriott was up front in the sales process and said we sell our weeks for $25,000. but once you buy it we will do everything in our power to make sure that you can't sell what you buy from us for more than $8000 because we don't like competing with resales then everyone would know and be informed buyers. If they said we will implement plans and rules that give weeks purchased from us rights that won't transfer to resale owners, then you purchased with full disclosure. if they emphasized that you will get usage per our contract because we are required by law to do so, but we will do anything in our power to make sure resales have almost no access to exchange inventory and we will do our best to kill resales so that their values are as close to zero as possible, then the majority of buyers would really understand what they are being sold and what the item they are purchasing will be worth after they sign the contract.
> 
> You now know that Marriott has this as their goal and yet you don't begrudge their sales tactics at all even though killing resale values kills the value of what you own. How many other buyers would buy if they knew this before signing on the dotted line?
> 
> In addition you have no problem doing business with a company who's sales reps assured that you could easily exchange for anywhere at anytime. It doesn't matter what you were told and led to believe because all that matters is the contract, not how the company will bend or break rules and laws to make a sale? The salesmen can lie daily with Marriott's blessings and  that is OK as long as marriott honors the contract? You can buy into a weeks exchange program basing your purchase on using the weeks exchange progam, but Marriott can make that worthless by inventing a new points program, and that is acceptable as long as they honor what they are required to do per the contract? We really do see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would prefer to do business with a company that I at least feel like I could I trust rather than one I know from past experience I can't trust. As you said with Marriott you have to read every line of the fine print because you are absolutelly sure that they are trying to get over on you as they have before and will again. That is the same kind of trust you get when you buy from Wastegate, but Marriott acts like they are a reputable timeshare company. Their latest program proves that too was a lie.
> 
> Please don't call Marriott a service provider, they are as bad as Wastegate. They use lies to sell and then do what they need to in order to not get sued. They have stagnant sales so they invent a new program that you must join or you weeks will not do what you purchased them to d, and wat you did with them for years. They charge people you sellyour week to $2000 money to keep a week in points, the same week you paid $1995 to put into points. They give you 4500 annual points when you deposit yur week, but they charge others 5000 points to stay in the week you deposited making more profit on those who convert.
> 
> After thinking about it, I guess in a way Marriott does provide a service. The service Marriott provides is separating their loyal owners from their cash.



I can only go by what our sales rep told us prior to our purchase and since.  She has never misrepresented the product to us.  The contracts that we received upon purchase and could review during the rescission process supported her statements.  Nothing Marriott has done since our purchase has been in violation of the contracts.  We specifically asked if changes could be made to our ownership and the answer was, "yes, if the contracts allow for Marriott to make them."  We were specifically told that exchanging would probably NOT result in a like-for-like trade because 3BR inventory is that much more limited.

Other people's experiences have been different, I'm well aware of that from all of the posts on TUG where folks are made confused by the misrepresentations made by their sales reps.  If I was in their shoes, I would feel the same way they do - that Marriott sold them a product promising one thing and delivering another.  I can understand their point of view, but I do not share it!

If the product hasn't been misrepresented to me and I do not feel like others do that Marriott has reneged on their promises, why do you keep insisting that I should feel differently?  Everyone's experiences with Marriott are not the same, it stands to reason that everyone's feelings about Marriott will not be the same.  It's apparent that I'm in the minority, at least here on TUG, but I'm not alone.

As far as whether to enroll or not in this new thing, we've made the decision to enroll based on the appearance that we will be able to make better use of our timeshares in the new system.  There are some fantastic features that I was hoping would be included.  And some not so fantastic, granted.  I don't like everything about it but I'm satisfied we can make it work.  Like everyone else, we will learn as much as possible about it in order to maximize our investment in a "vacation lifestyle."  That's all any of us can do.

I guess if it makes you feel better, Tombo, I can apologize to you.  I'm sorry that I do not feel insulted by Marriott for things that other MVCI owners may have experienced.  I'm sorry that I do not agree with your perception, although I am able to understand it and do appreciate that you've taken so much time to try to explain it clearly for me.  And I'm being sincere here, because I know that it's difficult to have to repeatedly justify your position on TUG.

The only thing I have a little bit of difficulty accepting completely from you is your newfound outrage over resale devaluation.  EVERY external resale purchaser was aware of the fact that Marriott does not protect, is not legally bound to protect, resale values.  It is the reason why resales are favored over developer purchasers 99.9999999999 times out of 100 - the cost savings are said to be too good to pass up.  So if by buying on the external resale market you've acknowledged in some fashion that devaluation is inherent in Marriott timeshares, how can you now cry "Foul!" when you see that it can affect you as a seller, too?  The bad comes with the good, and it doesn't matter whether Marriott cooks up a new scheme to deliberately sabotage resale value or whether it happens naturally - as long as Marriott doesn't do something illegal to cause it, then we have to live with it.


----------



## BocaBum99

RedDogSD said:


> No way.  I bought this when this was being spread on the board a few days ago, and I finally realized that this is wrong.  Marriott cannot create new demand out of thin air.  They are not going to have 1 million new points owners overnight AND the point owners that they get are going to try for a lot less prime weeks because they could not afford the 7000 points for a prime week in Maui.  So, unlike in the past where every Marriott week owner would try to get the top weeks, now....many of them will try for less exciting weeks because they want to stretch their points.
> 
> So, what will Marriott do with the rest of their prime inventory?  They will try to rent it.  Yeah....and?  They have always been trying to rent their prime inventory.  They charge too much.  THey have to.  It would take away from their brand name if they did not charge 3x as much for a 2 bedroom Villa as opposed to a Hotel Room.  So, they can try renting until they are blue in the face.  They will not get that many takers at those prices.
> 
> So, now what?  Marriott has exhausted rentals and their points owners, and they still have lots of inventory.  Where will it go?  The only place that Marriott can drop it where they do not get egg on their face (by renting it cheap) is Interval.  So, Interval weeks will still get plenty of inventory for the forseeable future.



Yes, your conclusion is correct that Interval will continue to get deposits.  Unfortunately, it will be more of the leftovers after the points members have picked it over, though.

Prior to this system, Marriott would randonly put out inventory into Interval.  If it were a prime week, for 24 hours after that deposit was made, saavy exchangers could grab it.  Now, that inventory will be held in a points pool and made visible to all points owners for an extended period of time.  So, it will be grabbed in a much larger window.  What is left will truly be leftovers.  

It is for the reasons you raise that I thought for sure that Marriott would have it's own bonus time/open season/Flexchange option.  The fact that they didn't do it is leaving lots of money on the table.  It is one of their biggest mistakes in creating this program.  

The biggest mistake is the points skimming.  That was just stupid and now a PR nightmare that they need to address.  They could have easily solved this problem by increasing the total maintenance fees by 7% and giving owners equal value in points exchange.  That's all they would have to do.  If I were the CEO of the Vacation Ownership business unit, a product manager would be losing their job over that gaffe.


----------



## RedDogSD

BocaBum99 said:


> Yes, your conclusion is correct that Interval will continue to get deposits.  Unfortunately, it will be more of the leftovers after the points members have picked it over, though.
> 
> .



This is not a problem.  Yes, you are right that the points owners will have picked through the inventory.  However, the points program will make smarter owners and they will not be wililng to give up their points so easily.

Go to a car dealership.  They trade points (known as Cash) and see what is available.  Usually, the cars that are great deals are hard to get.  The expensive, top cars are always there.  You can pick up a top of the line Corvette easily.  The cheapest model Camaro with the V-6 is hard to find.  Why?  People do not think the Corvette is worth the money or they need to stretch their money for other things.  Same with Timeshares and points.  Any points owners who sat through the presentation in Florida will be excited to know that they only need to buy 2000 points to come back.  How are they going to talk him into buying 7000 points?  Not many will buy that many.  The rest will be excited enough to know that they can bank their points a few times and get to Hawaii once every few years.  Sure, there will be some people who buy the big packages.  They could have done that before.  We bought our first Ko'Olina property when we were touring Newport.  They always cross-sold.  Now they just sell points.


----------



## curbysplace

Initially I was very skeptical on how the new point system would work.  I agree with the general sentiment expressed on TUG over the last few months--that why should we enrich Marriott Inc at our expense just because Marriott chooses to change its system for its own profit and benefit.  Then after talking with several different Marriott folks on Monday and Tuesday and asking questions, the majority of which had to be taken up to a supervisor for the answer, I decided to see how the dollars of the program would pencil out for me.  I am seriously considering biting the bullet and buying into the club points program.  By the way the Marriott representatives were all quite surprised that I knew so much about the system when it had just “rolled out” that day.  A hats off to all you TUGGERS for the great discussion leading up to this massive change by Marriott.

Putting pencil to paper here is what I found if I join the system.  I would buy into the club points program for the $1,995 initial joining fee and pay the annual $199 club fee.  This then (1) eliminates my $89 annual II fee; (2) eliminates my $75 lockoff fee; (3) when exchanging my 2 fixed weeks and my 3 bdrm lock off to another Marriott or staying at my home resort in other than my 2 fixed weeks eliminates another $397 (I have not yet stayed in my fixed weeks or the floating 3 bdrm unit, always exchanging) I am ahead $362 in the first year.  This doesn't include any fees to II to upgrade or re-booking a 1 bdrm reservation to a 2 or 3 bdrm unit or any cancellation fee, etc.  Even without ever using club points to trade and sticking with Marriott / II to trade internally to another Marriott or my home resort as I do now, I break even in 5 ½ years and will always have the option to use the point-based exchanges if it is beneficial to me.  I also meet the threshold for the premier status (13-month reservation availability).  

Yes there is some point dilution at my home resorts–but the 800 point bonus for signing up will, at least in my case essentially absorb the dilution for at least 3 to 5 years providing I can maneuver the points that long.  

I will also be able to get a refund of my II fees paid through August 2013 which should be at least$250.  If I do not elect the refund I was told I get two bonus weeks up front and a third bonus week in 2013.  

Everyone has to make up his or her own mind on this.  Everyone has different factors and circumstances to consider.  If all you do is stay in your home resort, then there is no reason to join.  If you have only one unit you may come continue life as before trading through II as in the past.  As for me, I will ask more questions, re-compute the dollars and cents of the deal and make a final determination whether or not it makes financial sense for me to put out $1,995 to buy into the program.  


One nagging thing that bothers me is why there is any differential in the joining fee between developer sold weeks and third party resale weeks.  I know there was some discussion of this earlier so if this is a repeat of something previously discussed I apologize. The $1,300 differential I will have to pay to join the club point program doesn’t make any sense.  When the developer initially sold the week they got the money from the sale and the sales force received its commission.  This is akin to an Initial Public Offering or IPO on the stock market.  When I bought a week from a third party, why should Marriott care.  My penalty for buying third party that is not being able to trade my week(s) for Marriott reward points (which is unwarranted but I can accept that).  Just like buying and selling stocks on the stock market after the IPO, it doesn’t change the amount the company gets.  If Marriott really wanted a week to resell to make another margin on the sale and provide its sales force with another commission, it could have taken the unit by exercising its ROFR which it chose not to do.


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## Numismatist

Did anyone see this:

quote The points value of my enrolled week(s) and the points required to occupy any particular resort are subject to change.
 endquote

at the bottom of the points screen?

So...I'm guessing MY points will go DOWN and the points I need to occupy will go UP...


----------



## RandR

I am not the one who originally brought up the gaming of the system using the Sun - Thurs reservations.  This was brought up many hundreds of posts ago.  Many were saying that they get less points for their week than it takes to book a like for like trade.  That is when someone said the way around it is to just book Sun - Thurs which use less points and you will get more than your 7 days overall.  My point was that there seems to be a big gap between weekday and weekend nights and people my think they can exploit that. They should be fooled though since the points are very likely to be reallocated between days and the ability to get 7 or more days with your points may go away.


----------



## RedDogSD

Numismatist said:


> Did anyone see this:
> 
> quote The points value of my enrolled week(s) and the points required to occupy any particular resort are subject to change.
> endquote
> 
> at the bottom of the points screen?
> 
> So...I'm guessing MY points will go DOWN and the points I need to occupy will go UP...



Maybe, but it could go the other way.  They will look at the demand for your property (requests from their points owners) and their supply.  If they cannot accomodate the requests of their owners and are making them unhappy, they may decide to give you more points for your week to get them more supply.  Of course, they also could increase the number of points it takes to trade into your resort which will decrease demand.  Either way works for them, but one way really screws you and one way helps you.  



RandR said:


> I am not the one who originally brought up the gaming of the system using the Sun - Thurs reservations.  This was brought up many hundreds of posts ago.  Many were saying that they get less points for their week than it takes to book a like for like trade.  That is when someone said the way around it is to just book Sun - Thurs which use less points and you will get more than your 7 days overall.  My point was that there seems to be a big gap between weekday and weekend nights and people my think they can exploit that. They should be fooled though since the points are very likely to be reallocated between days and the ability to get 7 or more days with your points may go away.



Yep, they will re-allocate it if they need to.   I think the big gap is because their research says that they can easily rent the weekends, so they want to discourage you from booking them, or at least make you pay big bucks if you do book a weekend day.  If they find themselves with too many un-rented weekend days, they will re-allocate the points.  If too many people are taking advantage of the Su-Th and they keep getting empty weekends that they cannot rent but no Su-Th nights to join them to, they will increase the points needed on Su - Th.


----------



## wuv pooh

CapriciousC said:


> But why would I pay a $700 enrollment fee when I can already do everything I want to do through Interval?  I'm not saying that the plan is inherently bad, or that it wouldn't be beneficial for some, I'm just disputing the fact that it's advantageous to everyone who is interested in exchanging.  Aside from the enrollment fee, the annual fee for the new points program is more than twice what we pay annually for Interval membership.
> 
> The way I see it, joining the new program means that I'm paying more money for options that I don't want.  I don't want to do shorter vacations, and I don't want to trade my Waiohai week for another US Marriott resort.
> 
> We actually go to Orlando five to six times a year, and always stay at Vacation Club resorts, but we just pay out of pocket.  In the last nine months we've booked two bedroom units at three different Orlando properties, and we've never paid more than $160 a night (and that was during Thanksgiving week, Christmas week, and Spring Break).  We currently have a reservation for a one-bedroom villa at Grande Vista for the last week of July for $110 a night.  I'm not going to trade my Waiohai week or roll it to points to use at Grande Vista when they're practically giving rooms away.



Currently you pay $89 for II and $109 to trade to another resort.  That is higher than the new fee.  You are correct that if you occupy only then you will save $76 per year and not pay the enrollment fee.  The enrollment fee is partially offset by 800 points, so that will reduce some of the cost.  If you do not enroll then you will not have access to the new points currency.  No one currently knows whether this access will be valuable or not.  Next year they could devalue your points or they could add a flexchange option giving weeks for 500 or 1,000 points that could be very valuable.

For most, it will be better to enroll because they will have hard savings from their current fees and future options in the new program that Marriott is pushing.  For example I will save over $200 per year by paying one fee so my payback will be very quick.

Since your usage does not provide a fee payback then you only have to decide if you want to pay to keep access to the points system.  The cost to join is currently known, the ability to join and the cost to join in the future is unknown.  They may even offer better incentives to join in the future.


----------



## camachinist

SueDonJ said:


> Wasn't there something about Holding Account, points for cancelled/amended reservations being put into a Holding Account, with restrictions for re-booking those points?  Not sure but I think I remember something ...


I found this when perusing the 'Inventory Release Calendar' at MVCI:



> 60-Day Window
> Vacation Club Points in a Holding Account may only be
> used for vacations booked within 60 days of check-in



I also found this, likely covered elsewhere:



> 10-Month Window
> Owner | One night or more
> Owner with Premier status | One night or more
> Owner with Premier Plus status | One night or more



Both had dates to attempt reservations, based on desired day of occupancy. The Holding Account day moved with the check-in day, 60 days out.

Ugh...


----------



## RedDogSD

wuv pooh said:


> Currently you pay $89 for II and $109 to trade to another resort.



I think we have to stop comparing the $89 part of the II fee.  That $89 lets you look at inventory and go into the system.  Supposedly, the new system forces you to let Marriott control everything.  So, I think that many TUGGERS and experienced TS'ers will want to pay the $89 and keep the ability to look at Inventory.  Who wants to give that up?


----------



## wuv pooh

RedDogSD said:


> I think we have to stop comparing the $89 part of the II fee.  That $89 lets you look at inventory and go into the system.  Supposedly, the new system forces you to let Marriott control everything.  So, I think that many TUGGERS and experienced TS'ers will want to pay the $89 and keep the ability to look at Inventory.  Who wants to give that up?



It looks like you will still be able to look at the inventory.

Fee: $139* to request travel within your country of residence; $154* to request travel outside your country of residence. *Please note: *This is the fee if exchange is placed via IntervalWorld.com. Please note that Owners who place their exchange requests via a telephone call to Interval International will be charged an additional $10. *Fees are listed in U.S. dollars, are subject to change, and vary by country of residence. 

In fact Enrolled owner now have to pay an extra fee if they use a human at II.  I guess this is a way to cut II costs because they are no longer getting the Marriott exchange fees for enrolled owners.  Weeks owners do not pay this fee.

Also

Please consult IntervalWorld.com or your current Interval International Directory for answers to all your exchange questions. *You can also use IntervalWorld.com to check exchange availability at any of the resorts in the network.* 

Maybe Marriott will force you to use a vacation advisor, but I would guess not.  Why would they want the extra cost if you do not want the support?  They control the inventory by deciding what gets deposited not by restricting deposits that are already made.  If it is important to you I would definitely ask before enrolling.  It would defeat one of the best benefits if you keep two II accounts.


----------



## CapriciousC

wuv pooh said:


> Currently you pay $89 for II and $109 to trade to another resort.  That is higher than the new fee.  You are correct that if you occupy only then you will save $76 per year and not pay the enrollment fee.  The enrollment fee is partially offset by 800 points, so that will reduce some of the cost.  If you do not enroll then you will not have access to the new points currency.  No one currently knows whether this access will be valuable or not.  Next year they could devalue your points or they could add a flexchange option giving weeks for 500 or 1,000 points that could be very valuable.
> 
> For most, it will be better to enroll because they will have hard savings from their current fees and future options in the new program that Marriott is pushing.  For example I will save over $200 per year by paying one fee so my payback will be very quick.
> 
> Since your usage does not provide a fee payback then you only have to decide if you want to pay to keep access to the points system.  The cost to join is currently known, the ability to join and the cost to join in the future is unknown.  They may even offer better incentives to join in the future.



Actually, we pay our II membership five years at a time, so it averages out to $71.20 a year.  We exchange on average two of every three years.  So the years we exchange it would cost us $15 more, but in the year we don't, it's saving us $93.80.  So for every three years, we're coming out $63.80 ahead by not joining, and that's not counting the enrollment fee.

I agree that the program will be to the benefit of some people.  Whether it will benefit most people is an open question.  Perhaps it will, because it seems as though the most "popular" resorts are resorts which we have no interest in visiting, so we're obviously already in the minority.  (Not that there's anything wrong with any of those resorts, it's just a function of our particular circumstances.  We live half an hour from Hilton Head Island - if we want to go up there, we make a day trip and come home and sleep in our own beds.  We have family in Newport Beach upon whom we can inflict our company if we want to visit there.  Kauai is our favorite island, and my husband doesn't particularly care for Maui, so we probably won't go there, etc.).

I'm not all that worked up about the program one way or the other.  We're not going to join, but that's just us.  I honestly hope it works out to the benefit of everyone who does join.  And on a completely selfish note, if it makes it easier for me to exchange into one of the Spanish resorts or Phuket because everyone else is more interested in US resorts, then I'm all for it.


----------



## jjluhman

wuv pooh said:


> It looks like you will still be able to look at the inventory.
> 
> Fee: $139* to request travel within your country of residence; $154* to request travel outside your country of residence. *Please note: *This is the fee if exchange is placed via IntervalWorld.com. Please note that Owners who place their exchange requests via a telephone call to Interval International will be charged an additional $10. *Fees are listed in U.S. dollars, are subject to change, and vary by country of residence.
> 
> In fact Enrolled owner now have to pay an extra fee if they use a human at II.  I guess this is a way to cut II costs because they are no longer getting the Marriott exchange fees for enrolled owners.  Weeks owners do not pay this fee.
> 
> Also
> 
> Please consult IntervalWorld.com or your current Interval International Directory for answers to all your exchange questions. *You can also use IntervalWorld.com to check exchange availability at any of the resorts in the network.*
> 
> Maybe Marriott will force you to use a vacation advisor, but I would guess not.  Why would they want the extra cost if you do not want the support?  They control the inventory by deciding what gets deposited not by restricting deposits that are already made.  If it is important to you I would definitely ask before enrolling.  It would defeat one of the best benefits if you keep two II accounts.



I have asked this question 4 times in different online chat sessions.  This particular issue is a deal breaker for me.  I may experience a little bit of savings in the long run moving to the new program, but I will not if I still have to pay to have my own interval account.  I am not willing to give up that access.  

I had two online chats today and they both told me that I would no longer deal directly with Interval because my vacation advisor would take care of all of that for me.  They stated this as if it was a huge burden being lifted.  When I responded that I really wanted to maintain that access I was told that I could still maintain my own account at my cost.  

I really wish I could get a straight answer on this.  I have asked for written documentation and not one person has been able to produce it! 

It looks like I may just have to wait for Tuggers to post their experiences after they enroll.  Again money well spent on TUG!


----------



## wuv pooh

*Can you imagine*

Can you imagine being a Premier Plus points member on July 26th, 2010?  According to the rules you will have at least 13,500 points and be able to reserve any room, in any US Marriott, for any day, for any number of days, for 13 months which puts you through the entire summer of 2011 as long as there is inventory available :whoopie: 

You will essentially have access to the entire system to yourself for a month.  That would be cool.  It almost makes me wish that I sold my house when it was $200k higher and bought more Marriott weeks  I have serious points envy :hysterical:


----------



## dioxide45

*Future Conversation*

Imagine this future call to owner services. Man calls in to try to do a Marriott to Marriott exchange.

VOA: Hello, this is <NAME> your Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Vacation Adviser.
Man: Yes, I would like to exchange my gold Marriott week through II for a summer HHI week.
VOA: Sure I can help you with that.
Man: I would like to deposit my week for and place a request for the HHI week.
VOA: We can do that sir. You do understand that you are using a low week to try and get a high demand week.
Man: Yes, I do.
VOA: [Checking II system]. I don't see that I can confirm that week at the moment. If you are willing to convert your current years weeks to points and borrow next years weeks, I can confirm you instantly.
Man: What do you mean? I thought if a week was available I could get it?
VOA: The destinations exchange system currently has control of two HHI summer weeks for when you want to go.
Man: Okay, I will exchange in to them, week for week.
VOA: I can't do that sir. The weeks we have are only available to points people.
Man: I don't get it! I thought if a week was available I could exchange in to it????
VOA: Yes you can, if you are willing to use two years worth of points.
Man: I don't want to do that!!!
VOA: Okay, we will place a request with II to attempt to exchange.
Man: I thought I wouldn't have to deal with II anymore, I always hated dealing with them. I didn't like having to wait!
VOA: You don't have to deal with them sir. I can confirm the week right now if you book with this years points and borrow next years points.
Man: Never mind!
Man: [Hangs up]. I hate this new system.

People don't like II because it is currently the only viable option they really think they have. When Marriott becomes that option, they will complain about the new program just as much.

Just because you sign up doesn't mean you will easily get week for week exchanges. Your VOA will try to push you in to points as much as possible. I am sure they will be commissioned to do so. Doing so gives Marriott control of that week, which is what they want.

Marriott didn't develop all these fancy new point charts just for you to try and do Marriott to Marriott exchanges in II. They will want to push you to points exchanges.


----------



## m61376

Dave M said:


> According to this link (log-in required), you do not lose direct access to II if you enroll and then decide to deposit your week as in the past. The link explains exchanges for those who enroll but choose to reserve their own week and use it for exchanging. One quote:The language at that link is similar to - but not identical to - the comparable link for weeks owners (those who don't enroll in the new program).



Dave-
I did see that- but if refers to making your reservations online and placing a request online- not looking at II's online inventory. I did the online chat thing three times today- one out of the three confirmed that you would have on-line access to II as you do now, or could use a vacation adviser. The others told me only through a vacation adviser- so who do I believe?


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Dan, the way it stands now NO weeks that are sold on the external market and closed after 6/20/10 will be eligible to enroll in the Points program.  It doesn't matter if existing Weeks owners now enroll or not - the Enrolled Points ownership will not transfer upon resale to a new owner, and all new owners will not be eligible to enroll.
> 
> You and I went back and forth in the speculation thread quite a bit about this - I'm not surprised at all that Marriott continued their history of not protecting  resale values but I am a little bit surprised that they found a way to impact resale values as much as they have.  (I do wonder if it's an attempt to make it easier for them in the future to pick up existing devalued weeks on the resale market through ROFR, to add Points inventory at a favorable cost to them.  Probably.)





SueDonJ said:


> Yes, that's my understanding.  The Enrolled Points membership is an addendum to a deeded week contract that will not transfer upon resale, and this is from the FAQ for the Enrolled Points option (bolding mine):




I was told my a Marriott rep that if you join and sell your week later, the new owner can join for a fee. If you don't join, then the new owner will not be able to join. So basically, a points week sold can get back into points. A weeks week sold cannot. Hopefully we can clarify this soon since, if it is true, it would be a serious issue in considering to join. I'd be more likely to pay the $2K if I thought the resale value of a points week would be higher than a weeks week (which is likely under the scenario I described).

Again, I'm not saing the points transfer on a resale - I am saying the ability to convert to points (for a fee)  transfers on a resale if the week was enrolled in points.

I got this info as part of a sales pitch on the phone so take it for what it's worth...


----------



## dioxide45

*Proven Skim?*

I haven't seen anyone who looked at "skim" across an entire resort calendar yet. So I took a look at Waiohai Beach Club. Limited seasons, and no different views in weeks made it one of the easiest.

Week|Points Given|	OV|	IS
1	4225	5025	4225
2	4225	5025	4225
3	4225	5025	4225
4	4225	5875	4850
5	4225	5875	4850
6	4225	5875	4850
7	4225	6175	5075
8	4225	5875	4850
9	4225	5875	4850
10	4225	5875	4850
11	4225	5875	4850
12	4225	5875	4850
13	4225	5025	4225
14	4225	5025	4225
15	4225	5025	4225
16	4225	6175	5075
17	4225	5025	4225
18	4225	5025	4225
19	4225	5025	4225
20	4225	5025	4225
21	4225	5025	4225
22	4225	5875	4850
23	4225	5875	4850
24	4225	5875	4850
25	4225	5875	4850
26	4225	5875	4850
27	4225	5875	4850
28	4225	5875	4850
29	4225	5875	4850
30	4225	5875	4850
31	4225	5875	4850
32	4225	5875	4850
33	4225	5875	4850
34	4225	5025	4225
35	4225	5025	4225
36	4225	5025	4225
37	4225	5025	4225
38	4225	5025	4225
39	4225	5025	4225
40	4225	5025	4225
41	4225	5025	4225
42	4225	5025	4225
43	4225	5025	4225
44	4225	5025	4225
45	4225	5025	4225
46	4225	5025	4225
47	4225	6175	5075
48	4225	5025	4225
49	4225	5025	4225
50	4225	5025	4225
51	4225	6175	5075
52	5175	6850	5550
53			
Total	220650	284725	236925

"Skim"	OV: 64075 IS: 16275

So Marriott gets approximately 3 extra weeks out of each unit. That is if there were no ocean view in the new system. There is ocean view. I don't know the exact number of units in each view in the new system, so an exact count isn't available. But it only gets worse when you look at two views in the new system.

Edit: There is a week 53. Though only one for 2011, so that would account for another third of a week of points.


----------



## hotcoffee

SueDonJ said:


> The only thing I have a little bit of difficulty accepting completely from you is your newfound outrage over resale devaluation.  EVERY external resale purchaser was aware of the fact that Marriott does not protect, is not legally bound to protect, resale values.  It is the reason why resales are favored over developer purchasers 99.9999999999 times out of 100 - the cost savings are said to be too good to pass up.  So if by buying on the external resale market you've acknowledged in some fashion that devaluation is inherent in Marriott timeshares, how can you now cry "Foul!" when you see that it can affect you as a seller, too?  The bad comes with the good, and it doesn't matter whether Marriott cooks up a new scheme to deliberately sabotage resale value or whether it happens naturally - as long as Marriott doesn't do something illegal to cause it, then we have to live with it.



Of course, I assume that you realize the resale issue hurts developer owners also.  The new system levels the playing field between resale owners and developer owners.  We pay more to join, but as I understand it get the same advantages as well as the same disadvantages.  I have been told that anyone buying a unit resale under the new program will not be able to join the new program.  So, that fact will most likely make it harder to all of us to sell should we ever need to (unless Marriott implements their own resale program).


----------



## edge4414

SueDonJ said:


> I can only go by what our sales rep told us prior to our purchase and since.  She has never misrepresented the product to us.  The contracts that we received upon purchase and could review during the rescission process supported her statements.  Nothing Marriott has done since our purchase has been in violation of the contracts.  We specifically asked if changes could be made to our ownership and the answer was, "yes, if the contracts allow for Marriott to make them."  We were specifically told that exchanging would probably NOT result in a like-for-like trade because 3BR inventory is that much more limited.
> 
> Other people's experiences have been different, I'm well aware of that from all of the posts on TUG where folks are made confused by the misrepresentations made by their sales reps.  If I was in their shoes, I would feel the same way they do - that Marriott sold them a product promising one thing and delivering another.  I can understand their point of view, but I do not share it!
> 
> If the product hasn't been misrepresented to me and I do not feel like others do that Marriott has reneged on their promises, why do you keep insisting that I should feel differently?  Everyone's experiences with Marriott are not the same, it stands to reason that everyone's feelings about Marriott will not be the same.  It's apparent that I'm in the minority, at least here on TUG, but I'm not alone.
> 
> As far as whether to enroll or not in this new thing, we've made the decision to enroll based on the appearance that we will be able to make better use of our timeshares in the new system.  There are some fantastic features that I was hoping would be included.  And some not so fantastic, granted.  I don't like everything about it but I'm satisfied we can make it work.  Like everyone else, we will learn as much as possible about it in order to maximize our investment in a "vacation lifestyle."  That's all any of us can do.
> 
> I guess if it makes you feel better, Tombo, I can apologize to you.  I'm sorry that I do not feel insulted by Marriott for things that other MVCI owners may have experienced.  I'm sorry that I do not agree with your perception, although I am able to understand it and do appreciate that you've taken so much time to try to explain it clearly for me.  And I'm being sincere here, because I know that it's difficult to have to repeatedly justify your position on TUG.
> 
> The only thing I have a little bit of difficulty accepting completely from you is your newfound outrage over resale devaluation.  EVERY external resale purchaser was aware of the fact that Marriott does not protect, is not legally bound to protect, resale values.  It is the reason why resales are favored over developer purchasers 99.9999999999 times out of 100 - the cost savings are said to be too good to pass up.  So if by buying on the external resale market you've acknowledged in some fashion that devaluation is inherent in Marriott timeshares, how can you now cry "Foul!" when you see that it can affect you as a seller, too?  The bad comes with the good, and it doesn't matter whether Marriott cooks up a new scheme to deliberately sabotage resale value or whether it happens naturally - as long as Marriott doesn't do something illegal to cause it, then we have to live with it.



Sue 

You are obviously an intelligent person but your business acumen is lacking. All well run business try to protect their client interests if only for future potential sales. What business do you know that has a resale-able product doesn't tout resale value vs the the competition. I doubt very much your timeshare presentations did not discuss the advantages of a "Marriott Timeshare" i.e.; increasing value, Rewards points, deeded property (in most cases) and the ability to sell - the resale value. It was very obvious to me and stated to me numerous times that ROFR was the tool Marriott would use to insure values would stay high and you know that is exactly what they did until now! Your incessant defense of almost everything Marriott does makes me wonder what your motives are. I can understand some people wanting to join this points program because it fits their individual needs or wants or as some have described fear from what Marriott might do in the future. Whatever anyones reason to join or not join is fine but to try to tell people that Marriott is not breaking commitments to owners is utterly ridiculous. Verbal commits from their sales staff are legally binding and certainly there are thousands of us who were sold the whole program including the property would be ours and ours to run as we so choose. Marriott taking voting rights away and now voting in our annual meetings against owner rights may or may not be legal but it is morally wrong. That is unless you were the only one that was also told Marriott would vote our rights and not us.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

.....as long as there is inventory available!!!! Ay, there's the rub. On the July 26th the only inventory will be unsold developer inventory placed in points, units returned for MR points and units turned in for points by new enrollee's looking to get a jump on the system....

don't think many ski weeks will be sitting there,but I bet there will be a ton of Lakeshore in May, Marco in October.  Plenty of nice opportunites but not the motherload.  

I do believe there will be some opportunites for the prime weeks for the real early birds as MVCD has to get the word out early that "points rule" and "weeks drool".

I hope there is plenty of stuff, as I will be one of those 13K folks IF I enroll...


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> .....as long as there is inventory available!!!! Ay, there's the rub. On the July 26th the only inventory will be unsold developer inventory placed in points, units returned for MR points and units turned in for points by new enrollee's looking to get a jump on the system....
> 
> don't think many ski weeks will be sitting there,but I bet there will be a ton of Lakeshore in May, Marco in October.  Plenty of nice opportunites but not the motherload.
> 
> I do believe there will be some opportunites for the prime weeks for the real early birds as MVCD has to get the word out early that "points rule" and "weeks drool".
> 
> I hope there is plenty of stuff, as I will be one of those 13K folks IF I enroll...



I wonder though how many weeks Marriott is taking back from II in exchange for several off season weeks. This could be happening now without us even knowing it. Does Marriott need to have a current request to pull weeks back? Or can it pull weeks back based on anticipated demand?


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> I was told my a Marriott rep that if you join and sell your week later, the new owner can join for a fee. If you don't join, then the new owner will not be able to join. So basically, a points week sold can get back into points. A weeks week sold cannot. Hopefully we can clarify this soon since, if it is true, it would be a serious issue in considering to join. I'd be more likely to pay the $2K if I thought the resale value of a points week would be higher than a weeks week (which is likely under the scenario I described).
> 
> Again, I'm not saing the points transfer on a resale - I am saying the ability to convert to points (for a fee)  transfers on a resale if the week was enrolled in points.
> 
> I got this info as part of a sales pitch on the phone so take it for what it's worth...




Dan, the disclosure document says this on page 4 for Trust members:

Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a *$2,000 minimum initiation fee*; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. *If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.* *Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.*

From Page 14 of the exchange doc:

Effect of Transfer of Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member (“Selling Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member’s Interest to another party (“New Member”), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. *Each New Member will be required to remit to the Association an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid by an existing Member. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.)* Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. *With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the enrollment fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.* 

It seems like if you do not use an approved broker you may be out of luck even if you do pay $2,000.  Without having a full base interest or paying the initiation fee you are limited to reservations within 60 days, which is a big disadvantage.  They seem to also want to control who brokers their exchange points.

“Approved Broker” which includes: (a) the developer of the Member’s Affiliate Program or Component; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; (ii) acquire the Interest by virtue of being a Family Member by gift, will, divorce decree, testamentary disposition, intestate succession or trust from a Member; or (iii) is otherwise granted Membership by Exchange Company, upon the terms and conditions then determined by Exchange Company in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion. If a Member does not purchase the Member’s Interest from an Approved Broker, such Member may be limited to only Base Exchange Benefits, or upon payment of the initiation fee, if permitted in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, Base Plus Exchange Benefits.

I think you have some more work to do to understand the implications.  It is not very clear to me what all this means except that it gives Marriott all the cards in the deck


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

the 64K question!!!!

What is the relationship between MVCD and II? Is it independent or proprietary?  Does II have a fiduciary (huge word) responsibility to its members to provide fair exchanges to members or deal with their potentially biggest customers (MVCD) first?

who knows??

perhaps the legal eagles out there can take a crack at this one!!!

This could be the whole KEY for MVCD.  If they can do this they will have good inventory in the "point" bucket


----------



## timeos2

*It can be done - will they let you do it?*



wuv pooh said:


> It looks like you will still be able to look at the inventory.
> .



Of course I can't be sure how Marriott will do it but at least with the DRI II account - also corporate one that is limited to use with DRI deposits - does allow you to log in & view II inventory and specials.  Now they also let you reserve II exchanges on line & I guess Marriott won't allow that so maybe the whole set up is different.  But at least we know II does allow corporate account individual members to use the on line system.


----------



## Dean

floyddl said:


> This statement is exactly why people are upset.  If true then Marriott has screwed all it's loyal owners.


From an exchange standpoint I think we've known that Marriott will tilt the table from the first day this came up.  It will likely happen slowly but in 3-5 years it's likely that high season Marriott weeks will be almost exclusively available through the new program if looking at exchanges.  



tombo said:


> My hat is off to you. If you can make the new system work to your advantage, that is fantastic. Don't forget to factor in the points skimmed into your spreadsheet, and if you do that and it still works that is great..
> 
> I will cut my nose off to spite my face if I feel wronged. If I lose access to inventory and if my week become worthless, I will let that happen before i pay them a dollar of extortion. They will not profit on me after devaluing what I own, forcing me to buy points to continue to make like for like trades, charge me $1995 to convert to points, then charge anyone I sell my week to at least that much to retain what I already paid for. Jst because they can hurt my value and my access to inventory doesn't mean that I will pay them money because they have me over a barrel. They might make billions on the points program, but it won't be from any money I paid them.


I am confident that I can make it work to my advantage as well.  I'm still gathering information to be sure I have all the details I need but I expect this change to save me several hundred dollars a year AND give me access to inventory that I don't have good access to now, at least with what I'd use to try to trade.  I'm very happy to pay modestly higher points for certain guarantees and direct booking options.  The truth is that with my situation, I plan to play both sides of the street.

I do want to caution some that might have bought units to use AND others to trade.  Just remember that IF you bought a trading unit to take advantage of the 13 month reservation option, consider this in your decision making process.  In my case it likely won't matter but it would have a year ago before I bought 2 additional trading type units.  

I just have a difficult time pairing principles with timeshares as it's always been essentially one owner vs another for all but fixed week/fixed unit systems.  If principles were the key no way to belong to Marriott in the previous system due to the 13 months option, no way to belong to Bluegreen or Wyndham due to the VIP systems, etc.  I'd equate it more to "honor among thieves" than anything else.



brianfox said:


> Did DVC keep the cost of a total week the same, and just redistribute the daily points?  If so, that sounds reasonable.


Yes, they have a rule that in effect keeps the points the same for the entire year for the resort overall.  However, they do charge MORE for a studio or 1 BR than they do the combined 2 BR unit and this is NOT protected in the yearly points requirement.



RedDogSD said:


> No way.  I bought this when this was being spread on the board a few days ago, and I finally realized that this is wrong.  Marriott cannot create new demand out of thin air.  They are not going to have 1 million new points owners overnight AND the point owners that they get are going to try for a lot less prime weeks because they could not afford the 7000 points for a prime week in Maui.  So, unlike in the past where every Marriott week owner would try to get the top weeks, now....many of them will try for less exciting weeks because they want to stretch their points.
> 
> So, what will Marriott do with the rest of their prime inventory?  They will try to rent it.  Yeah....and?  They have always been trying to rent their prime inventory.  They charge too much.  THey have to.  It would take away from their brand name if they did not charge 3x as much for a 2 bedroom Villa as opposed to a Hotel Room.  So, they can try renting until they are blue in the face.  They will not get that many takers at those prices.
> 
> So, now what?  Marriott has exhausted rentals and their points owners, and they still have lots of inventory.  Where will it go?  The only place that Marriott can drop it where they do not get egg on their face (by renting it cheap) is Interval.  So, Interval weeks will still get plenty of inventory for the forseeable future.


IMO the answer is somewhere in between.  Currently there is quite a bit of mismatched inventory.  Basically those with lower demand deposits searching for higher demand, larger units, etc.  In many cases these are NOT being matched to Marriott owners or at least not the ones that have been looking for some time.  Plus some that own Marriott don't belong to II and trade that way but rather through independents and privately.  Thus it is my belief that there is a significant amount of inventory that is not currently matched to Marriott exchangers in a timeshare manner now that WILL match to those or similar owners in the future.  I'd estimate that the % of deposits available to weeks Marriott exchangers in 1-2 years is reduced about 1.5 times the reduction in available inventory.  Remember that the number looking will go down as well.  Here's a numerical representation of the thinking.  Say that now there were 100 owners looking in II for Marriott weeks and 150 units available during the time they were looking.  I'd estimate that about half (75) of those never match to Marriott exchangers partly because many are low demand weeks and partly because of trade power issues.  Now with the new system only about 50 (in this example) Marriott members are now looking in weeks to exchange but there are now likely only 50 units and many of those will be low and shoulder season.  The rest will be looking with points.  It may actually be worse than this as Marriott will be searching II as well to take back the weeks they need to fulfill their requests.


----------



## dioxide45

wuv pooh said:


> From Page 14 of the exchange doc:



The discloser_guide.pdf that I am reviewing is only a 8 page document.


----------



## icydog

BocaBum99 said:


> The biggest mistake is the points skimming.  That was just stupid and now a PR nightmare that they need to address.  They could have easily solved this problem by increasing the total maintenance fees by 7% and giving owners equal value in points exchange.  That's all they would have to do.  If I were the CEO of the Vacation Ownership business unit, a product manager would be losing their job over that gaffe.



I know this information is in this long, long thread but I do not understand what point skimming is. Can you explain please Jim?


----------



## steveg11

*Much misinformation on this thread*

I have never seen a discussion thread with so much misinformation in my life. "Skimming points"? "Bid / ask spread"? You've got to be kidding me.
Think about it people. In the weeks world, Marriott reserved weeks in the same seven day bundles in which they sold them, and when you reserved a week, you reserved the size, view, and season that you owned. That made it mighty efficient, and allowed their occupancy to be over 98%. Now they allow us to break our stays up into flexible lengths, check in any day of the week, and change our mind on a whim to select a different resort, different size villa, different season, and different view than we own.
Don't you think that might cause them to have to leave some villas unoccupied for a few nights? If Billy takes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Sally takes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, who is going to take Wednesday and only Wednesday?
The points difference is so we can choose what we want and stand a good chance that it will be available.


----------



## jerseygirl

steveg11 said:


> I have never seen a discussion thread with so much misinformation in my life. "Skimming points"? "Bid / ask spread"? You've got to be kidding me.
> Think about it people. In the weeks world, Marriott reserved weeks in the same seven day bundles in which they sold them, and when you reserved a week, you reserved the size, view, and season that you owned. That made it mighty efficient, and allowed their occupancy to be over 98%. Now they allow us to break our stays up into flexible lengths, check in any day of the week, and change our mind on a whim to select a different resort, different size villa, different season, and different view than we own.
> Don't you think that might cause them to have to leave some villas unoccupied for a few nights? If Billy takes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Sally takes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, who is going to take Wednesday and only Wednesday?
> The points difference is so we can choose what we want and stand a good chance that it will be available. Duh!!



But, Marriott's primary competitors with the same ability to book less than a week (Hilton and DVC, and Hyatt and Starwood with a few more restrictions) all manage to the same flexible lengths of stay without a so-called "skim."  Does Marriott think that timeshare owners don't know that 100% of the owners/members do not use all their time/points each year, which allows for "orphan days" without penalizing anyone?


----------



## Dean

jerseygirl said:


> But, Marriott's primary competitors with the same ability to book less than a week (Hilton and DVC, and Hyatt and Starwood with a few more restrictions) all manage to the same flexible lengths of stay without a so-called "skim."  Does Marriott think that timeshare owners don't know that 100% of the owners/members do not use all their time/points each year, which allows for "orphan days" without penalizing anyone?


I can't speak to anything other than DVC.  While they do sell the entire year minus a 2-4% holdback mostly for maint, that doesn't mean that owners can effectively use those points completely, the truth is that they can't and DVC counts on some losing a few points and some trading for cash equivalent exchanges that eat up points.  For example, a hotel room at a Disney hotel might be as much as a 2 BR at a DVC resort.  A DCL exchange generally barely returns just over the maint fees at most resorts, around $6-7 a point on the cruise when most resort fees are in the $5 to $5.50 a point range and some over.  Plus as I mentioned, they do "skim" on smaller units.  I'm not defending Marriott on this one, it does seem odd to me how they've approached it, but it's not nearly as black and white as some would like you to believe.


----------



## NJDave

TheTimeTraveler said:


> I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.
> 
> If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.
> 
> The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.



This is an issue for us.  We have too many weeks in the bank now that need to be used first.


----------



## gailo

*2 Questions*

1. How many points to be premier and premier plus member?

2. If I enroll but book my home resorts (I usually book OP week7 and FC week8 at the 13 mo rule. Many years I rent my weeks. If for some reason they do not rent (usually do) can I call and change to points? And how close to reservation date?

Thanks for answers!


----------



## Dean

gailo said:


> 1. How many points to be premier and premier plus member?


6500 & 13000 respectively.


----------



## JimIg23

steveg11 said:


> I have never seen a discussion thread with so much misinformation in my life. "Skimming points"? "Bid / ask spread"? You've got to be kidding me.
> Think about it people. In the weeks world, Marriott reserved weeks in the same seven day bundles in which they sold them, and when you reserved a week, you reserved the size, view, and season that you owned. That made it mighty efficient, and allowed their occupancy to be over 98%. Now they allow us to break our stays up into flexible lengths, check in any day of the week, and change our mind on a whim to select a different resort, different size villa, different season, and different view than we own.
> Don't you think that might cause them to have to leave some villas unoccupied for a few nights? If Billy takes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Sally takes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, who is going to take Wednesday and only Wednesday?
> The points difference is so we can choose what we want and stand a good chance that it will be available. Duh!!



Steve from orlando with one post,

While there are some that are really against it, many here are just confused and are looking for answers.  Sometimes wrong information snowballs.  Many here have called or chatted with Marriott reps and have gotten different answers.  

Now, I am not against the new system.  Actually, I am leaning towards going into it, I do see some good benefits to the program.  But I have questions before I do, as do many.  I am not really blaming the Marriott reps that have different answers because they probably got three days of training a few days ago and are being onslaughtered with 10,00 specific questions only TUGGERS can think of 

But, at the end of the day, there are alot of unanswered questions.  If you do have specific knowledge of this program, instead of saying "Duh," please tell everyone about some of the misconceptions and what the truth is.  It may actually help put some of these misunderstandings to bed.


----------



## deedman

I don't get what all the hub-ub is about.  The biggest deal breaker should be this fact and this fact alone, the rest is for the birds.

1) you give up your HOA vote to Marriott by joining this new points program.


I keep hearing wuv pooh saying how great it will be, and you lose nothing for trying it out but the $600-$2000 for joining, and if you want to keep your week instead of points its no problem and yadda yadda yadda.  You don't get your vote back buddy, and that's a wrap.

and a close second

2) Marriott CAN and WILL change required point values, at that point you will pay $9 a point plus $.40 for MF or stay for a less and less amount of time, and if you don't get more points you wasted your initial payment and lost your vote for nothing.

I can't wait until all the people that join this new scam of a program are back on this forum complaining in 12-24 months when marriott point gouges you for even more, and at that point you will deserve it. 

cheers, and I'm glad I never pulled the trigger on a marriott property, especially with this latest slap in the face to owners.


----------



## jerseygirl

Dean said:


> I can't speak to anything other than DVC.  While they do sell the entire year minus a 2-4% holdback mostly for maint, that doesn't mean that owners can effectively use those points completely, the truth is that they can't and DVC counts on some losing a few points and some trading for cash equivalent exchanges that eat up points.  For example, a hotel room at a Disney hotel might be as much as a 2 BR at a DVC resort.  A DCL exchange generally barely returns just over the maint fees at most resorts, around $6-7 a point on the cruise when most resort fees are in the $5 to $5.50 a point range and some over.  Plus as I mentioned, they do "skim" on smaller units.  I'm not defending Marriott on this one, it does seem odd to me how they've approached it, but it's not nearly as black and white as some would like you to believe.



This is well stated Dean and I'm certain that all developers make money on unused units, external "exchanges" like cruises, etc.  What I was referring to is that with Hyatt, Hilton, DVC and Starwood -- an outgoing owner/member/exchanger receives the same number of points that is required by an incoming owner/member/exchanger.  

I realize its more complicated because the new points system needed to correct seasonal errors of the past to be attractive to new buyers.  But, Starwood had the same issue when it layered its points structure on an older resort with 1-52 float weeks where there was a newer resort in the same location with multiple seasons.  Owners of the older 1-52 float received the average of all points for all weeks and the total of all points given to owners was equal to the total of all points required to exchange in.  I find lots to fault Starwood for, but they certainly don't employ the skimming methodology -- nor do Hyatt, Hilton or DVC.

I don't begrudge Marriott wanting to make a profit -- I get that they're a public company, not a non-for-profit organization.  But, I wouldn't let them off the hook on the "skimming" issue when their main competitors manage to make money despite the orphaned days that result from additional flexibility.


----------



## dioxide45

The Enrollment page still shows the following data:



> Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program






wuv pooh said:


> Dan, the disclosure document says this on page 4 for Trust members:
> 
> Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a *$2,000 minimum initiation fee*; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. *If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.* *Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.*
> 
> From Page 14 of the exchange doc:
> 
> Effect of Transfer of Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member (“Selling Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member’s Interest to another party (“New Member”), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. *Each New Member will be required to remit to the Association an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid by an existing Member. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.)* Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. *With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the enrollment fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.*
> 
> It seems like if you do not use an approved broker you may be out of luck even if you do pay $2,000.  Without having a full base interest or paying the initiation fee you are limited to reservations within 60 days, which is a big disadvantage.  They seem to also want to control who brokers their exchange points.
> 
> “Approved Broker” which includes: (a) the developer of the Member’s Affiliate Program or Component; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; (ii) acquire the Interest by virtue of being a Family Member by gift, will, divorce decree, testamentary disposition, intestate succession or trust from a Member; or (iii) is otherwise granted Membership by Exchange Company, upon the terms and conditions then determined by Exchange Company in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion. If a Member does not purchase the Member’s Interest from an Approved Broker, such Member may be limited to only Base Exchange Benefits, or upon payment of the initiation fee, if permitted in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, Base Plus Exchange Benefits.
> 
> I think you have some more work to do to understand the implications.  It is not very clear to me what all this means except that it gives Marriott all the cards in the deck


----------



## jimf41

edge4414 said:


> Sue
> 
> You are obviously an intelligent person but your business acumen is lacking. All well run business try to protect their client interests if only for future potential sales. What business do you know that has a resale-able product doesn't tout resale value vs the the competition. I doubt very much your timeshare presentations did not discuss the advantages of a "Marriott Timeshare" i.e.; increasing value, Rewards points, deeded property (in most cases) and the ability to sell - the resale value. It was very obvious to me and stated to me numerous times that ROFR was the tool Marriott would use to insure values would stay high and you know that is exactly what they did until now! Your incessant defense of almost everything Marriott does makes me wonder what your motives are. I can understand some people wanting to join this points program because it fits their individual needs or wants or as some have described fear from what Marriott might do in the future. Whatever anyones reason to join or not join is fine but to try to tell people that Marriott is not breaking commitments to owners is utterly ridiculous. Verbal commits from their sales staff are legally binding and certainly there are thousands of us who were sold the whole program including the property would be ours and ours to run as we so choose. Marriott taking voting rights away and now voting in our annual meetings against owner rights may or may not be legal but it is morally wrong. That is unless you were the only one that was also told Marriott would vote our rights and not us.




*All well run business try to protect their client interests if only for future potential sales.*

I assume you do not feel Goldman Sachs, BP, Smith Barney, or Lehman Bros. to name a few were or are well run companies.

*What business do you know that has a resale-able product doesn't tout resale value vs the the competition.*

Actually none. That said can you tell me of anyone who ever bought a high priced, sexy, stylish, fast automobile because of it's resale value? Nobody buys anything because of resale value they buy because they want it.


*Verbal commits from their sales staff are legally binding*

Really, why doesn't everybody get what the salesman told them they would get?

*Marriott taking voting rights away and now voting in our annual meetings against owner rights may or may not be legal but it is morally wrong.*

Marriott is not taking anything. Those who enroll are giving and Marriott is being very upfront about it. 

*You are obviously an intelligent person but your business acumen is lacking.*

I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. I also believe it's a home run for resale owners.


----------



## sparty

wuv pooh said:


> Can you imagine being a Premier Plus points member on July 26th, 2010?  According to the rules you will have at least 13,500 points and be able to reserve any room, in any US Marriott, for any day, for any number of days, for 13 months which puts you through the entire summer of 2011 as long as there is inventory available :whoopie:
> 
> You will essentially have access to the entire system to yourself for a month.  That would be cool.  It almost makes me wish that I sold my house when it was $200k higher and bought more Marriott weeks  I have serious points envy :hysterical:



Yes... This is why I joined today..


----------



## dioxide45

wuv pooh said:


> Can you imagine being a Premier Plus points member on July 26th, 2010?  According to the rules you will have at least 13,500 points and be able to reserve any room, in any US Marriott, for any day, for any number of days, for 13 months which puts you through the entire summer of 2011 as long as there is inventory available :whoopie:
> 
> You will essentially have access to the entire system to yourself for a month.  That would be cool.  It almost makes me wish that I sold my house when it was $200k higher and bought more Marriott weeks  I have serious points envy :hysterical:



Though if this were the case, the only inventory available is at the 11 resorts in the disclosure.


----------



## deedman

ya the inventory that people actually want doesn't exist unless someone enrolls their week and uses it as points for the year, you will NEED that 13 months if you try to book something worthwhile during platinum season. here come the waiting lists!


----------



## floyddl

dioxide45 said:


> Though if this were the case, the only inventory available is at the 11 resorts in the disclosure.



If I understand this correctly, everyone can trade through next July 26th.  July 26th thru August 26th of 2011 the Premier Plus owners have the priority.


----------



## NJDave

RedDogSD said:


> I think we have to stop comparing the $89 part of the II fee.  That $89 lets you look at inventory and go into the system.  Supposedly, the new system forces you to let Marriott control everything.  So, I think that many TUGGERS and experienced TS'ers will want to pay the $89 and keep the ability to look at Inventory.  Who wants to give that up?




I would want a separate account just to get a sense of the inventory that is available.  Understanding what will be available is a very important aspect of trading. That is why the sightings board is so helpful.  I have never used one sighting to obtain a unit (except for bulk banking in RCI) but they have increased my knowledge greatly.


----------



## deedman

floyddl said:


> If I understand this correctly, everyone can trade through next July 26th.  July 26th thru August 26th of 2011 the Premier Plus owners have the priority.



you missed his point. His point was the Trust only has 11 resorts, the rest depend on enrolled weeks by owners, or deposited weeks into II that have been plucked out to serve marriott's greedy plan.  So the already small pool of prime weeks available will see MUCH more demand, thus resulting in even less availability.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Since points members can call in on Tuesday for reservations I would think they automatically get the jump on weeks owners without having to go to another resort to do it.



My theory is different - I think at some resorts weeks get a jump on points at 13 months... Why do you think it is the opposite case?


----------



## Dean

jerseygirl said:


> This is well stated Dean and I'm certain that all developers make money on unused units, external "exchanges" like cruises, etc.  What I was referring to is that with Hyatt, Hilton, DVC and Starwood -- an outgoing owner/member/exchanger receives the same number of points that is required by an incoming owner/member/exchanger.
> 
> I realize its more complicated because the new points system needed to correct seasonal errors of the past to be attractive to new buyers.  But, Starwood had the same issue when it layered its points structure on an older resort with 1-52 float weeks where there was a newer resort in the same location with multiple seasons.  Owners of the older 1-52 float received the average of all points for all weeks and the total of all points given to owners was equal to the total of all points required to exchange in.  I find lots to fault Starwood for, but they certainly don't employ the skimming methodology -- nor do Hyatt, Hilton or DVC.
> 
> I don't begrudge Marriott wanting to make a profit -- I get that they're a public company, not a non-for-profit organization.  But, I wouldn't let them off the hook on the "skimming" issue when their main competitors manage to make money despite the orphaned days that result from additional flexibility.


Disney also has access to unused inventory at 60 days out and can ANTICIPATE such unused inventory if they like.


----------



## edge4414

jimf41 said:


> *All well run business try to protect their client interests if only for future potential sales.*
> 
> I assume you do not feel Goldman Sachs, BP, Smith Barney, or Lehman Bros. to name a few were or are well run companies.
> 
> *What business do you know that has a resale-able product doesn't tout resale value vs the the competition.*
> 
> Actually none. That said can you tell me of anyone who ever bought a high priced, sexy, stylish, fast automobile because of it's resale value? Nobody buys anything because of resale value they buy because they want it.
> 
> 
> *Verbal commits from their sales staff are legally binding*
> 
> Really, why doesn't everybody get what the salesman told them they would get?
> 
> *Marriott taking voting rights away and now voting in our annual meetings against owner rights may or may not be legal but it is morally wrong.*
> 
> Marriott is not taking anything. Those who enroll are giving and Marriott is being very upfront about it.
> 
> *You are obviously an intelligent person but your business acumen is lacking.*
> 
> I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. I also believe it's a home run for resale owners.


Jim

You have to be kidding with the GS, Lehman and BP. They did not watch out for there customers and are paying dearly as well as the owners (stockholders) who have lost 50% to 100% of their value. Did I miss interpret you here because your reference to these as well run defies logic considering as Sue and I expect you would say their duty is to their shareholders.

Resale - Go to a quality car dealer BMW etc. or read a car report and see if resale value is considered. How about buying a house or vacation property. Isn't location and therefore potential resale a key part. Maybe you just buy things because you "want it" but most people are more practical and insure their investment value is maintained. That is unless you invested in BP, Lehman, or GS.

Despite what you say verbal contracts are binding albeit harder to prove but nevertheless legally enforceable.

And finally my complaint concerning voting is not the people who voluntarily give it up but for the rest of us who were promised we the owners would have 100% voting rights in the vacation clubs not Marriott. Besides what is your guess of the percentage of people who join how many will like these choices and how many will feel compelled.

I questioned the morality of what Marriott is doing and I question the morality of your favored companies you mentioned above. Hope you don't own any of their stock


----------



## SueDonJ

edge4414 said:


> Sue
> 
> You are obviously an intelligent person but your business acumen is lacking. All well run business try to protect their client interests if only for future potential sales. What business do you know that has a resale-able product doesn't tout resale value vs the the competition. I doubt very much your timeshare presentations did not discuss the advantages of a "Marriott Timeshare" i.e.; increasing value, Rewards points, deeded property (in most cases) and the ability to sell - the resale value. It was very obvious to me and stated to me numerous times that ROFR was the tool Marriott would use to insure values would stay high and you know that is exactly what they did until now! Your incessant defense of almost everything Marriott does makes me wonder what your motives are. I can understand some people wanting to join this points program because it fits their individual needs or wants or as some have described fear from what Marriott might do in the future. Whatever anyones reason to join or not join is fine but to try to tell people that Marriott is not breaking commitments to owners is utterly ridiculous. Verbal commits from their sales staff are legally binding and certainly there are thousands of us who were sold the whole program including the property would be ours and ours to run as we so choose. Marriott taking voting rights away and now voting in our annual meetings against owner rights may or may not be legal but it is morally wrong. That is unless you were the only one that was also told Marriott would vote our rights and not us.



Oh geeze, now you've outed me.  I was just at the point where I thought I'd better start wringing my hands, gnashing my teeth and keening to the timeshare gods - "aaaiiieee!!!  there goes my resale value!!!" - to protect my cover, too.  Now everybody knows that I'm actually a SuperSpyUndercover Marriott Agent sent to infiltrate TUG to try to combat the incessant anti-developer sentiment found here.  Don't suppose I can convince you to keep a lid on things, huh?

Look.  This argument is getting stupid.  I don't have any reason other than it's the truth to say that I have had good experiences with one Marriott sales rep who has never misrepresented the product to me.  She is my only frame of reference because she is the only sales rep I've ever dealt with.  My ownership has worked as she led me to expect it would, exactly as it's supported by the contracts.  And that's what I consider important.

Some other people have obviously had different experiences and expectations - I don't expect them to agree with me.  But I also don't expect to be accused of ulterior motives or lying or being stupid or having something wrong with me.  (All of which have been said at one time or another here about the few on TUG who are happy, satisfied developer-direct Marriott customers.)  Why is that so difficult for some to resist?  What possible difference does it make if I believe that Marriott has not treated me badly as a customer?  How does it bolster your argument to insist that I recognize some phantom non-contractual moral responsibility that you think Marriott owes to MVCI owners?


----------



## GregT

steveg11 said:


> I have never seen a discussion thread with so much misinformation in my life. "Skimming points"? "Bid / ask spread"? You've got to be kidding me.
> Think about it people. In the weeks world, Marriott reserved weeks in the same seven day bundles in which they sold them, and when you reserved a week, you reserved the size, view, and season that you owned. That made it mighty efficient, and allowed their occupancy to be over 98%. Now they allow us to break our stays up into flexible lengths, check in any day of the week, and change our mind on a whim to select a different resort, different size villa, different season, and different view than we own.
> Don't you think that might cause them to have to leave some villas unoccupied for a few nights? If Billy takes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Sally takes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, who is going to take Wednesday and only Wednesday?
> The points difference is so we can choose what we want and stand a good chance that it will be available. Duh!!



SteveG11, 

Welcome to TUG -- your very first post is truly thought-provoking.

But with apologies, I think you're missing the point of our (my?) frustration.  We love the flexibility of the proposed system and its great to be able to access other systems.  But it's unprecedented for Marriott to not credit an owner with the "market" value of their unit (the Ask), but instead Bid you an offer that is 7-22% lower than the Ask.  They present the argument of Breakage, as you have noted.

I belong to two other points systems -- both have found ways to ensure that there are very very few vacant units.  I did a sample of available units during the summer for Worldmark (approx 100 days remaining thru Sept 30):

Depoe Bay 2BR:  No units available
Kihei 2BR/3BR: 11 2BR *days *available/9 3BR *days *available
Tahoe 2BR/3BR:  1 2BR day available/2 3BR days available

Further,  I fully expect that most of these remaining days will be acquired and utilized in some fashion.  And yet Marriott is asking its owners to believe that there will be a 7-22% vacancy rate.    The Skim is requiring many owners to now realize they are short by 1,000 points of being able to really utilize the system -- therefore The Skim is a major deal for them.

Stunning.  I can't believe Marriott did this and thought it would not be controversial.


----------



## ArtsieAng

steveg11 said:


> I have never seen a discussion thread with so much misinformation in my life. "Skimming points"? "Bid / ask spread"? You've got to be kidding me.
> Think about it people. In the weeks world, Marriott reserved weeks in the same seven day bundles in which they sold them, and when you reserved a week, you reserved the size, view, and season that you owned. That made it mighty efficient, and allowed their occupancy to be over 98%. Now they allow us to break our stays up into flexible lengths, check in any day of the week, and change our mind on a whim to select a different resort, different size villa, different season, and different view than we own.
> Don't you think that might cause them to have to leave some villas unoccupied for a few nights? If Billy takes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Sally takes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, who is going to take Wednesday and only Wednesday?
> The points difference is so we can choose what we want and stand a good chance that it will be available.





Assuming that some villas would go unoccupied under the new system....Isn't the MF's of those units being paid, (points & weeks) whether they are occupied, or not?

Either way, Marriott needed to find another way to make up any additional cost involved with implementing this new system. To take away our ability to reserve a "like for like" exchange, or our own week, without purchasing more points appears to me to be nothing more than Marriott trying to force us to purchase more points.......This is a total disregard for Marriott's loyal customers, and flies in the face of every vacation dream, and theory that they have been selling for the past 25 years. 

Marriott is betting that we will all purchase more points in order to reserve those like for like weeks, and the actual week, that we have already paid for........That's how I see it, at any rate.


----------



## timeos2

*Verbal simply doesn't count in real estate*



edge4414 said:


> Despite what you say verbal contracts are binding albeit harder to prove but nevertheless legally enforceable.



Real estate is a special case and nothing verbal is enforceable. It all has to be in writing or it doesn't exist. Thus the hundreds of pages of disclosure tied to even a "simple" timeshare purchase.


----------



## steveg11

ArtsieAng said:


> Assuming that some villas would go unoccupied under the new system....Isn't the MF's of those units being paid, (points & weeks) whether they are occupied, or not?
> 
> Either way, Marriott needed to find another way to make up any additional cost involved with implementing this new system. To take away our ability to reserve a "like for like" exchange, or our own week, without purchasing more points appears to me to be nothing more than Marriott trying to force us to purchase more points.......This is a total disregard for Marriott's loyal customers, and flies in the face of every vacation dream, and theory that they have been selling for the past 25 years.
> 
> Marriott is betting that we will all purchase more points in order to reserve those like for like weeks, and the actual week, that we have already paid for........That's how I see it, at any rate.



And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.


----------



## MikeZ

steveg11 said:


> And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.



Steveg11,

Good question.  Here's a clean example.

Let's say, I want to go to Ko Olina, and an owner from Ko Olina wants to come to Waiohai.  We both have OV, and like-for-like should get us OV.  Here are the numbers:

I get 5075 for my Waiohai week, but have to pay 5725-6025 for most Ko Olina weeks

He/she gets 4975 points for the Ko Olina week (that I have to pay 5725-6025 to reserve) and has to pay 5875-6175 for most Waiohai weeks (which I received 5075 for)

Between those two, there could be almost 2000 points lost for owners in a transaction that used to be equal.

Now, there are some low season weeks that will not require as many points, but even in those cases, the person trading to Waiohai is short points, and I am relegated to get weeks I don't want to use without finding points elsewhere.


----------



## tombo

steveg11 said:


> And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.



Simply see how many points they give you for your week and how many it costs to stay in it. Marriott gives you less points when you deposit your week than they charge other members to use it pocketing the extra points. Call it skimming or theft, Marriott is ripping owners off.

Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.

Example to make it clearer. Your week/season costs 5000 points to reserve. Marriott give you 4650 points when you deposit your week. You don't have enough points to save them and book your home resort on a non use year. In addition since Marriott says your week/season is worth 5000 points, then any other resorts where a week/season has been assigned a cost of 5000 points are by Marriott's own standards like for like resorts because all cost 5000 points to reserve. With the 4650 points you get annually from Marriott you will never have enough points to trade like for like unless you buy more points or borrow from the future. With points Marriott has not only ended any chance you will ever trade up on an excahnge, they have guaranteed that you will never be able to trade like for like. If Marriott is going to charge 5000 points to members to stay in the week I deposit, then Marriott should give me 5000 points for my week, not 4650!

Read past posts here and on other threads for specifics. Many owners aren't getting enough points to trade for any week in their season at their home resort. Some people are not getting assigned enough points to be able to reserve ANY week in ANY season at their home resort. Some are only getting enough points to get the worst in season weeks, but NONE are getting enough points to reserve a prime in season week. In fact people with fixed weeks aren't getting enough points to reserve their own fixed week. 

Welcome to Marriott's secret hidden points fees. Marriott brags that they don't have an exchange fee while they steal points making money (fees) by theft on every exchange. Under points they also claim no lock-off fees which is also a lie factoring in additional stolen points (skim). If you add the points totals required to reserve a studio and thepoints required to stay in a one bed room and compare the number of points required to stay in a 2 bed room same resort/season, the combined points required for the lock-offs are higher, so they are again charging a hidden fee. The owner deposits his 2 bed room week. marriott gives him less points than they will rent it for, they skimmed points. If a member rents a oned bed room side and another member rents a studio, marriott will charge the 2 a combined point total higher than reserving the whole 2 bed room. More points skimmed, more Marriott hidden fees.Welcome to the new crokked, skimming, theiving marriott.

Another troubling part of points is when you join points you give up your right to vote and instead give Marriott the right to vote your week. They won't let you even vote if you join points. Do you think they might be pursuing an agenda that NO owners would vote for? Why else would they want to remove owner's right to vote? What a deal this new system is (for Marriott that is). Take note Wastegate. With Marriott's new points program they are about to give you a run for your money as they now have potential to become the most hated timeshare developer.


----------



## pacheco18

edge4414 said:


> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Despite what you say verbal contracts are binding albeit harder to prove but nevertheless legally enforceable.



NOT for real estate.  It is called the Statute of Frauds.  Applicable in every state.  NOTHING oral is binding in a real estate contract.  If it's not in writing it does not exist.  You could record it on a tape recorder and it would not be binding and enforceable.  IN addition, the "merger clause" in the contract states clearly that oral representations are not binding.

I hate the misinformation but I really get concerned about the legal misinformation.


----------



## ArtsieAng

steveg11 said:


> And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.



Yea, it all sounds wonderful.....The only thing they didn't give us, is the 7 day interval at the resort/season/view that we purchased, along with like for like exchanges!

Premier/Premier Plus owners have the ability to reserve ahead of everyone else, at the resort of their choosing. When I go to reserve my week, what will be left? 

The old system is now gone. It has been replaced by the new point system.....The Marriott of the future is points, not weeks. Unfortunately, their new system left a large number of their Legacy Owners behind, with their ask/bid point ratio.


----------



## tombo

pacheco18 said:


> NOT for real estate.  It is called the Statute of Frauds.  Applicable in every state.  NOTHING oral is binding in a real estate contract.  If it's not in writing it does not exist.  You could record it on a tape recorder and it would not be binding and enforceable.  IN addition, the "merger clause" in the contract states clearly that oral representations are not binding.
> 
> I hate the misinformation but I really get concerned about the legal misinformation.



But if a developer is condoning the use of lies to sell real estate, that developer would be liable for fraud and misrepresentation which is ilegal. Marriott hires, trains,retains, and promotes sales people who use outright lies and misrepresentation to sell Marriott's product.The law does not protect and absolve Marriott of their responsibility to truthfully sell their product or to require a truthful sales presentation from it's employees or agents as long as the facts are in writing when the actual purcase is made. Even if it was legal to lie and misrepresent in order to make the sale, would you really trust a company and want to do business with an organization that you know uses lies to sell their product, but is legally compliant when you sign the contract? Not me. They showed their true colors during the sales presentation. I don't need to read the contract to find out what I really purchased because I am not buying from a company I already know is not ethically selling their product. 

In Missouri in 2005 the attorney general sued and won damages against Festiva Resorts for using false and misleading sales tactics to sell timeshares. In addition Festiva employed a 3rd party sales force and claimed since they didn't actually employ them that they weren't liable. They were sued and paid restitution anyway.

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement

http://ago.mo.gov/newsreleases/2005/112805b.htm

Excerpt:
"In the lawsuit, Nixon is asking the court to order Festiva to refund more than $200,000 to consumers who were misled into buying timeshares from the company. The lawsuit also seeks preliminary and permanent injunctions, fines of up to $1,000 per violation of the law and reimbursement to the state for its investigative and legal costs."

"Under the agreement, Festiva agreed to stop using false and misleading sales pitches to market and sell its time shares. "

Some people here believe that anything can be legally said or promised during the sales presentation with no repercussions for the developer if they have a contract at the closing and honor the contract. That is simply not true. If you use lies and misrepresentation to sell any product including real estate, it is illegal. The fact that what you actually get is in the contract does not allow them to say anything they want to make the sale.


----------



## mickeypops

*The great $360,000,000 steal!*

Someone correct my logic here, because it can't be right - can it????

Let's assume:

Average points value per week across the system = 4,000
Enrollment take up = 100,000 weeks
Marriot bid/sell skim = 10%
 = Marriott profit of 40,000,000 points
@ $9 per point = $360,000,000 

Has Marriott just created $360 million inventory for itself, without laying a single brick?

And in doing so, hasn't it stolen this from its owners?

I'm sure I can't be right - someone tell me I'm wrong, please??


----------



## hipslo

Dean said:


> 6500 & 13000 respectively.



This is specifically stated to be subject to change.  Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners.  The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.

Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.


----------



## pacheco18

tombo said:


> But if a developer is condoning the use of lies to sell real estate, that developer would be liable for fraud and misrepresentation which is ilegal. .



You can sue for fraud -- and get monetary damages - but you CANNOT ENFORCE the verbal terms of a real estate contract through a lawsuit (Statute of Frauds).  Two different things.

SO - if a rep promises you X and you can prove ALL the elements of fraud (detrimental reliance is key - "but for" the misrepresentation you would not have entered into the contract) and prove your damages, you might be able to get the damages, but the promise (X) will not be enforceable.  Chances are the cost of suing will be greater than the recovery.

I don't want to be pedantic and put you all through law school but any verbal representation made by a rep that is not part of the writing signed is not part of your contract and never will be.


----------



## RandR

jimf41 said:


> I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. I also believe it's a home run for resale owners.



Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners?  I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program.  What do I gain?  From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP.  But, I don't care about that at all.  My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them.  Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.

So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before.  But hey at least I can trade for MRP.


----------



## timtax

Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.

Unless you book and deposit this year's week in II and trade for the week you want next year. Then you can add the year 2 reservation in front or behind the week you traded for. It can be done.


----------



## hipslo

DanCali said:


> My theory is different - I think at some resorts weeks get a jump on points at 13 months... Why do you think it is the opposite case?



I agree with this, depending on desired check in day.


----------



## RandR

hipslo said:


> This is specifically stated to be subject to change.  Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners.  The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.
> 
> Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.



And that is the word that worries me, "initial".  Since they are just rolling this out for the first time all things are initial.  Like anything else new, no matter what it is, there will be changes to smooth things out.  So the information people use for their assumptions as to why they join might, likely will, change.  I have seem here on TUG that Marriott subsidizes MF sometimes and later removes that subsidy and the MF rise.  Right now the yearly $165/$199 is quite appetizing, even for me with one week.  But after the "initial" period ending 12/31/10, it could easily go up to $295/$400.  Still a good deal for some but it would eat up much of the savings of those with only one or two weeks.

I am just not sure that I want to trust Marriott to do the right thing.


----------



## pacheco18

RandR said:


> Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners?  I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program.  What do I gain?  From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP.  But, I don't care about that at all.  My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them.  Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.
> 
> So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before.  But hey at least I can trade for MRP.



I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga!  I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125.  For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra.  So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.

As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off.  Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.


----------



## tombo

pacheco18 said:


> You can sue for fraud -- and get monetary damages - but you CANNOT ENFORCE the verbal terms of a real estate contract through a lawsuit (Statute of Frauds).  Two different things.
> 
> SO - if a rep promises you X and you can prove ALL the elements of fraud (detrimental reliance is key - "but for" the misrepresentation you would not have entered into the contract) and prove your damages, you might be able to get the damages, but the promise (X) will not be enforceable.  Chances are the cost of suing will be greater than the recovery.
> 
> I don't want to be pedantic and put you all through law school but any verbal representation made by a rep that is not part of the writing signed is not part of your contract and never will be.



You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.


----------



## pacheco18

tombo said:


> You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.



I am not offended.  Legality and morality are two different things!
I certainly don't condone misrepresentation, but I also think buyers should be smart enough and careful enough when spending thousands of dollars to read the contract.  When it says clearly, "oral representations are not binding," you can't disregard just because you like what you heard.


----------



## tombo

pacheco18 said:


> I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga!  I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125.  For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra.  So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.
> 
> As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off.  Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.



The cost of your resale has been diminished far below $7500 thanks to Marriott. If you sell your week that you convert to points take the $1495 conversion fee right off of the top or what you get resale because it is an extortion fee. Either you pay it to try and get good resale prices or you don't pay it and you reduce the value of your week for many resale buyers. Then in the new points rules it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by another $2000. So $7500 minus $3495 leaves you $4005. In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out. If that is correct resale value lowered even more. In addition to get points to transfer from what I have read you must use an approved resale broker. You will have to pay them commission. Their goes more money out of your pocket. By the time you get through jumping through all of the new hoops Marriott inserted into the points program you might have to pay the approved resale broker to sell your week for you. This program will not increase resale values, this program was designed to hurt resale values and will probably almost kill resale values.


----------



## Powerguy

tombo said:


> Then in the new poitns rules it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by another $2000.
> 
> In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out.



Where does it specifically say these two statements? I have not seen these items. It states that resale buyers after June 20 ,2010 cannot enroll in the points program.


----------



## pacheco18

tombo said:


> The cost of your resale has been diminished far below $7500 thanks to Marriott. If you sell your week that you convert to points, it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by $2000. In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out. If that is correct resale value lowered even more. In addition to get points to transfer from what I have read you must use an approved resale broker. You will have to pay them commission. Their goes more money out of your pocket. By the time you get through jumping through all of the new hoops Marriott inserted into the points program you might have to pay the approved resale broker to sell your week for you. This program will not increase resale values, this program was designed to hurt and will almost kill resale values.



Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth  the same.

Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate.  Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed.  I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about.  The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.

I am not condoning the program - I will not be joining - just pointing out the huge bonus for resale buyers.


----------



## rsackett

pacheco18 said:


> Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth  the same....



I have news for you; your developer purchase was always worth the same as a resale unit when you sell it!  That is what all those resale units are.  Someone bought them from the developer and sold them resale.  You lost all that money the second you went past your rescind period.

What ever rights a resale buyer has does not affect your usage what-so-ever!  The more rights are passed on to a resale buyer the more residual value you have in your developer unit.  If you ever sell you are selling a resale unit.

Ray


----------



## pacheco18

rsackett said:


> I have news for you; your developer purchase was always worth the same as a resale unit when you sell it!  That is what all those resale units are.  Someone bought them from the developer and sold them resale.  You lost all that money the second you went past your rescind period.
> 
> What ever rights a resale buyer has does not affect your usage what-so-ever!  The more rights are passed on to a resale buyer the more residual value you have in your developer unit.  If you ever sell you are selling a resale unit.
> 
> Ray



Understood, but now the two units have the same benefits and are worth the same to me as an owner.  If I join the points system they are indistinguishable in their benefits.

If I sold, both have diminished value since neither can join the points program.  My "loss" on  the resale unit is much less.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

pacheco18 said:


> Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth  the same.
> 
> Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate.  Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed.  I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about.  The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.
> 
> I am not condoning the program - I will not be joining - just pointing out the huge bonus for resale buyers.




.


I think there are a lot more resale buyers out there than anyone has been led to believe, and I am guessing Marriott wants those many units out there to join the program and make it work.   Hence the enticement fee of $1,495 to those resale buyers...


----------



## RandR

pacheco18 said:


> I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga!  I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125.  For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra.  So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.
> 
> As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off.  Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.



From what I can tell, the only thing that my $1495 buys me to make me on even footing with direct buyers is the ability to trade for MRP.  This has absolutely no value to me at all.  So how am I getting such a great deal as a resale buyer?

As for you being pissed off about your developer bought units....that I agree with.  I am surprised that more direct buyers aren't coming unglued about that.  Someone probably spent $20,000 - $25,000 or more to buy the same unit I got at GV for under $7000.  (And could have been bought before June 20 for much less than that.)  Now if I wanted I could just pay $1495 and all would be forgiven.


----------



## rsackett

jimf41 said:


> ....I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. *I also believe it's a home run for resale owners*.




Not for this one!  I have two resale weeks in two bedroom units.  Both are in the highest season at their resorts.  The total points I would receive is 3525.  This results in a maintenance fee per point of $0.59.  I am sure that there are MANY off season resort owners that are as bad off as or worse than I am.  I have no intention to join the club.  I will save my money, and use my deeded weeks as I have in the past.

Ray


----------



## tombo

mickeypops said:


> Someone correct my logic here, because it can't be right - can it????
> 
> Let's assume:
> 
> Average points value per week across the system = 4,000
> Enrollment take up = 100,000 weeks
> Marriot bid/sell skim = 10%
> = Marriott profit of 40,000,000 points
> @ $9 per point = $360,000,000
> 
> Has Marriott just created $360 million inventory for itself, without laying a single brick?
> 
> And in doing so, hasn't it stolen this from its owners?
> 
> I'm sure I can't be right - someone tell me I'm wrong, please??



You are right but most Tuggers who have really put a calculater to the skim percentages have found the overall average skim to be 7%. Hey, but it could actually be 10% in the near future since Marriott can change point values at any time they decide to.


----------



## wuv pooh

deedman said:


> I don't get what all the hub-ub is about.  The biggest deal breaker should be this fact and this fact alone, the rest is for the birds.
> 
> 1) you give up your HOA vote to Marriott by joining this new points program.
> 
> 
> I keep hearing wuv pooh saying how great it will be, and you lose nothing for trying it out but the $600-$2000 for joining, and if you want to keep your week instead of points its no problem and yadda yadda yadda.  You don't get your vote back buddy, and that's a wrap.



Maybe you should read the documents then.  You join in one year increments and you can revoke your joining whenever you want if you are a WEEKS enrolled owner.  Presto, I get my vote back.  They can never take that away from me.  I can voluntarily subject it to their terms, but I CAN take it back if I choose.

If you are a Trust member, then you own no real estate, are not a member of an HOA, and so have no vote.  That is totally different and your point is valid.

And don't misrepresent my view.  I think the system stinks vs. the old way, but it is going to be the future system and I refuse to give up my options going forward because I feel upset.  Other people will make their own choices, but they have a right to:

1. Understand the real system proposed - which many posters, including me  , do not fully understand.  Although some very basic things are very confused by some posters and can lead to wrong decisions.

2. Decide whether the new 'benefits' may be worth the cost to them.  This will vary by person and by your view of the future.  Since the future is unknown I do not feel comfortable with potentially giving up my rights to the new system when I can currently join for low or no cost.  Others will have different views.


----------



## MikeB2620

What difference does the skim matter if you just plan on trading your unit as you have done in the past?

When a Hawaii owner traded for an Orlando unit in the past, no one complained about a skim of value.


----------



## pacheco18

RandR said:


> From what I can tell, the only thing that my $1495 buys me to make me on even footing with direct buyers is the ability to trade for MRP.  This has absolutely no value to me at all.  So how am I getting such a great deal as a resale buyer?



There are many of us who travel abroad extensively for whom the points are very valuable.  I have had hotel stays worth $1500 a night!! for free with points.  When I add the traded points to the points I earn on my credit card it matters.  There is real value in Marriott Rewards points for me.  I am Platinum, get upgraded and get to use Executive Lounge at all Marriotts.  Timeshare travel is only a minor part of my vacation plan.

That's why this decision is not automatic - depends on what matters to you. The benefit of Rewards points is not in the mix for you and that is a material factor in the decision to deposit a resale week into the new program (IMO)

Additionally, as someone else just posted, the biggest question mark for me is the inventories.  I usually do not trade for other resorts.  I bought where I want to go and there are few Marriott properties I want to trade into.  But if I choose to trade occasionally -- such as a lockoff for an NCV in September of OCtober (which I have always been able to do) -- I want to know the inventory deposited to II by non points owners will not be snatched by Marriott and given to points owners.


----------



## ArtsieAng

MikeB2620 said:


> What difference does the skim matter if you just plan on trading your unit as you have done in the past?
> 
> When a Hawaii owner traded for an Orlando unit in the past, no one complained about a skim of value.



It matters because along with the new system comes the ability for any premier/premier plus owner to book at any resort prior to many week owners reserving their week, at their home resort.

If a Hawaii owner traded for Orlando in the past, that was their choice to do so. Marriott had nothing to do with it. How does that even come into this equation?


----------



## pacheco18

MikeB2620 said:


> What difference does the skim matter if you just plan on trading your unit as you have done in the past?
> 
> When a Hawaii owner traded for an Orlando unit in the past, no one complained about a skim of value.



Because as a Hawaii owner I could trade my lockoff for a two bedroom with no problem.  I once got a 3 bedroom at Ocean Pointe for my lockoff.  That's why it matters.


----------



## MikeB2620

Multiple week owners have always had the ability to reserve weeks before a lot of single week owners. 

As for "skim", I don't think it should enter into alot of the postings on this board. If you trade, you can continue to do so. You are not going to trade in your current week for points, and then trade points to get your week back.


----------



## wuv pooh

dioxide45 said:


> The discloser_guide.pdf that I am reviewing is only a 8 page document.



The exchange document is an additional document from the disclosure which tells how the exchange system operates.  If I was more tech savvy I would post a link.


----------



## MikeB2620

pacheco, you might still be able to do that trade. 

You do not have to turn your unit in to get points to trade, or to buy points to trade. You can continue to trade as you have in the past.


----------



## mikeb1

pacheco18 said:


> I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga!  I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125.  For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra.  So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.
> 
> As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off.  Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.




I own both developer and resale.  When i asked the rep about being about to enroll resale weeks and then being able to trade them for MRP's, i was told yes, and it would be the normal method where you elect to trade for the 100,000 to 125,000 pts/week that was on the sales chart for the property (like Ocean pointe). I thought this was great!    However, this am i saw the below, which to me means, that first i would have to enroll my weeks, pay the 1995, and then trade my week(s) for new vac club points, then be able to convert those points to MRP's only by using a max of 50% of those vac club points (or 65% if premier or 75% if premier plus) into MRPs in multiples of 250 at exchange rate of 8000 mrp's for 250 vac club points.  So if i trade Ocean Pointe plat, get 4325 vac club points.. i can then trade 2000 of those Vac Club points ( 50% *4325=2162.5.. which allows 8 units of 250 VC pts) and get  8000MRP's per 250 VC pts= 64,000 MR points...and then have 2325 Vac Club Points in my acct to use  .   A decent deal, if you say, i've traded in 2000/4325=46% of my points.. then based only on approx 1300 maint fee at OPointe, those 64k points cost me just under 1 cent per point.. cheaper than buying.  If i were premier plus, i could trade max 75%, which would be 3,000 Vac points and then get 12*8,000= 96,000 MRP's..again, just under a penny a point.

Resale owners looking to enroll need to note the difference between trade for points or earn points

Who's Eligible to Trade?
You're eligible to trade your timeshare ownership for Marriott Rewards points when:
•	You purchased your week directly from Marriott Vacation Club or from a 
Marriott-authorized broker.
•	Your name is listed on the deed of your vacation interest.
•	All of your Marriott Vacation Club accounts are current and you have no outstanding maintenance fees or loan payments due.
•	Your home resort's policy permits it. Most resorts allow you to trade for Marriott Rewards points every other year; some allow you to trade each year.
If you purchased your timeshare ownership week through a resale with a private party, you cannot trade it for Marriott Rewards points, but you can still earn Marriott Rewards points in other ways.

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/1_tradingForEnrolled.jsp


----------



## pacheco18

MikeB2620 said:


> pacheco, you might still be able to do that trade.
> 
> You do not have to turn your unit in to get points to trade, or to buy points to trade. You can continue to trade as you have in the past.



Yes, I know, but ONLY if Marriott does not snatch the units we deposit to II for its points participants.  I have no intention of drinking the Kool-Aid. It does not work for me.   I really want the truth about where those inventories are coming from and right now there is no trustworthy answer.  And, even if Marriott said the inventories are separate and they are not snatching inventory from weeks owners from II, that could change.  We are not parties to their contract with II.

Because this new program is fraught with inequities (points values could change, cost for points could change, we know nothing about inventories) I would not consider it for a minute.  So glad I bought where I want to go and not to trade.


----------



## MikeB2620

Pacheco,

I agree with you, and I am not joining either. i also think the inventory situation needs to be sorted out. However, I do not think people can make a blanket statement that you will not be able to trade a lock-off in Hawaii for a 2 bdrm somewhere else because the points do not allow you to, or due to points skimming, or something else. Lots of posts complaining about situations that have yet to materialize.


----------



## pacheco18

MikeB2620 said:


> Pacheco,
> 
> I agree with you, and I am not joining either. i also think the inventory situation needs to be sorted out. However, I do not think people can make a blanket statement that you will not be able to trade a lock-off in Hawaii for a 2 bdrm somewhere else because the points do not allow you to, or due to points skimming, or something else. Lots of posts complaining about situations that have yet to materialize.




Precisely - we do not know!  Way too much uncertainty for me.
Whoever at Marriott came up with this plan made certain assumptions (including potential sales, conversions etc).  Those assumptions have yet to be proven and if they are wrong the program will have to change. I'd rather sit on the sidelines than be one of the guinea pigs.


----------



## Dave M

mikeb1 said:


> If you purchased your timeshare ownership week through a resale with a private party, you cannot trade it for Marriott Rewards points, but you can still earn Marriott Rewards points in other ways.
> 
> https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/1_tradingForEnrolled.jsp


Mike -

You missed the exception, which is included in the FAQs for enrollment:





> If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and *you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade.* You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).



https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/faqs.html#q2 (log-in required)

Reps have explained that the text means that you will be able to trade the use of your resale week for Marriott Rewards points (1) if you purchased and closed prior to June 20 and (2) if your resort is one that allows owners to exchange for Marriott Rewards points. Noit all resorts have that option.


----------



## musical2

I am still undecided.  However, I did get a very inexpensive resale on a 2 BR Ko Olina Beach Club ($4750) EOY.  And I would get 4025 points for it per year.  Unfortunately, adding that to my Manor Club, that still leaves me 100 points shy of Premier .  So that is pointing me against joining.  But I do like the flexibility of trading points for some less point properties on my side of the world and still have points left over to add days over one week.  I won't always want to travel that far to Hawaii.


----------



## ArtsieAng

MikeB2620 said:


> Multiple week owners have always had the ability to reserve weeks before a lot of single week owners.
> 
> Yes, but the ratio has now been changed. The pie is now being sliced differently!
> 
> In addition to the 50% that was allowed to be booked (week owners) at the 13 month mark, there will be premier/premier plus owners able to book (point owners/Marriott) at 13 months out. Many fewer weeks will remain available for those unable to utilize that option.
> 
> As for "skim", I don't think it should enter into alot of the postings on this board. If you trade, you can continue to do so. You are not going to trade in your current week for points, and then trade points to get your week back.




Also not true......Very possible that one would choose to save points from one year to use the next year in order to bring children/family/friends along with them. They would be unable to book their own home resort/season/view, with the current point allotments.


----------



## mikeb1

Thanks Dave!  That will allow the resale units to get full MR points for the week.

Here's another situation that really benefits Multi week owners who enroll. (and i'm not on the bandwagon yet).

A Ocean Point 2 BR ocean side Platinum is worth 4325 Vac Club points..for owners with enough total Vac Club Points (approx 7000) who can trade in 65% of VC points for MRP's..  then that owner can exchange 4250 of VC points for 17 units of 8,000 pts= 136,000 MRP's...that's more than the  developer bought OP platinum Ocean front or Oceanside can get by exchanging the week directly for points!    even more than the 3 BR Oceanfront can trade for.

Basically 1 Ocean Point 2 Br Oceanside Platinum week (= 4325  VC Pts) is worth 136,000 MRP's.  (if you have enough other Vacation Club points to redeem that many).  

I'm beginning to like this concept.. if you have a lot of weeks you can get a lot of MR points to trade for travel packages with lots of FF miles.  Or better yet, be able to use say 3 weeks of VC points to get 2 concurrent weeks of prime time at a different resort for a family get together.. at 12 or 13 months out.. (yes, if available)  if not available, you just do your normal traveling.

If you had say 3 OP weeks, you would have 12,975.. you can swap just under 65% of those,  8250 VC pts for 264,000 MRp's.. and still have 4725 VC points to use!


----------



## mkahanek

*??*



musical2 said:


> I am still undecided.  However, I did get a very inexpensive resale on a 2 BR Ko Olina Beach Club ($4750) EOY.  And I would get 4025 points for it per year.  Unfortunately, adding that to my Manor Club, that still leaves me 100 points shy of Premier .  So that is pointing me against joining.  But I do like the flexibility of trading points for some less point properties on my side of the world and still have points left over to add days over one week.  I won't always want to travel that far to Hawaii.



How are you getting 4025 points yearly for an EOY owned week?


----------



## DanCali

pacheco18 said:


> Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth  the same.



This has nothing to do with if you sell an it is one of the most common fallacies. For all intents and purposes, there is no difference between a realized and an unrealized loss. When your home value was going up year after year, didn't you view that as an increase your wealth or net worth? It’s imprudent to ignore unrealized capital losses as decreases in wealth. 




pacheco18 said:


> Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate.  Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed.  I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about.  The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.
> 
> I am not condoning the program - I will not be joining - just pointing out the huge bonus for resale buyers.



I don't expect to profit from buying a timeshare, although I did get mine at (what were) good prices. I also don't expect to profit from buying a car, furniture, home appliances, electronics, or toys for my kids. On the other hand, many do buy houses or condos and do expect them to appreciate over time. Is a timeshare closer in nature to a home, or to a car? One could make the argument that timeshares could be sold for a profit so why do timeshares naturally depreciate? The main reason, in my opinion, is that MFs increase at a rate higher than inflation (coupled with overbuilding in some areas)... If the future obligation is higher, resale prices are lower. So we can see that developers already affect resale prices because they determine MFs. But I truly cannot think of another product where the "manufacturer" goes out of their way to destroy resale value.

The issue of retail buyers that resale buyers now pay "only" $1500 and they are "equal" even though they paid a lot less is correct, but it is (in my opinion, of course) somewhat silly to complain about and focuses on the wrong issue. The only difference between resale and retail was the ability to convert to MRP at the cost of MFs. Did anyone honestly think that is worth tens of thousands of dollars when you can buy the points at almost the same rate from Marriott? If anyone thought that, they should be converting to points every year, but I bet very few people do that. Who pays for all the glitz and glamor in a sales presentation? Who pays for the fat commissions Fletch boasted about? That is where the difference between resale and retail went. This may sound blunt but  it's just brutal honesty - if anyone told you MRP conversion is worth tens of thousands of dollars you were misled, because apparently it is not, and even Marriott just admitted it. 

The bigger issue is that Marriott took the worst page out of Starwood's book and decided to exclude future resale buyers from the program. Even if you do join points, it is not obvious from the documents if a future buyer can join. To make matter worse, they skim 7% to 12% of your points when you make exchanges, something that even the more notorious management companies don't do. This can ultimately destroy the value of the assets we own and it will be Marriott's doing. As Susan said more than once in many threads, "they have no responsibility to protect resale value", but a company will purposely destroy resale value for its own gain only if it is extremely arrogant and feels untouchable. Even those who say Marriott has no obligation to protect resale values, have yet to name another company (outside of the timeshare industry) that operates in this manner.

So I will take this last paragraph and open a new thread on this topic - I'm curious to get an answer...


----------



## m61376

mickeypops said:


> Someone correct my logic here, because it can't be right - can it????
> 
> Let's assume:
> 
> Average points value per week across the system = 4,000
> Enrollment take up = 100,000 weeks
> Marriot bid/sell skim = 10%
> = Marriott profit of 40,000,000 points
> @ $9 per point = $360,000,000
> 
> Has Marriott just created $360 million inventory for itself, without laying a single brick?
> 
> And in doing so, hasn't it stolen this from its owners?
> 
> 
> I'm sure I can't be right - someone tell me I'm wrong, please??



You left out one important point- they get to make this profit EVERY year!


----------



## DanCali

m61376 said:


> You left out one important point- they get to make this profit EVERY year!



No - he's quite close because the $9 per point is for a perpetual purchase.

On an annual basis, a point is probably worth to Marriott $0.50 to $0.70. For example, 4750 to reserve a summer NCV that they rent at $400/night. On an annual basis, the 40 million skimmed points are probably $20M-$25M profit to Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ...  To make matter worse, the skim 7% to 12% of your points when you make exchanges, something that even the more notorious management companies don't do. This can ultimately destroy the value of the assets we own and it will be Marriott's doing. As Susan said more than one in many threads, "they have no responsibility to protect resale value", but a company will purposely destroy resale value for its own gain only if it is extremely arrogant and feels untouchable. Even those who say Marriott has no obligation to protect resale values, have yet to name another company (outside of the timeshare industry) that operates in this manner.
> 
> So I will take this last paragraph and open a new thread on this topic - I'm curious to get an answer...



I'm responding here because it's for certain that Dave is going to lock your thread and send you back here.   

About "skim" - or "breakage" as it's been referred to for all of the years that it's existed in other timeshare point systems - I agree that Marriott appears to have protected itself with a much larger percentage of breakage than the existing point systems.

But the one unknown that Marriott couldn't factor into any of its business model for the Points system is how much inventory can be expected from existing Weeks owners (whether enrolled or not.)  ALL of the documents are full of the "points values may be subject to change" because of that unknown.

I know, I know, on TUG Marriott is The Big Bad Playground Bully Out To Knock Us Around.  But in the real world  Marriott is a customer satisfaction leader in the hospitality industry.  Isn't it even .00000001% POSSIBLE that the breakage has been set so high at rollout to protect Marriott in the event that their most pessimistic expectations for this product are realized, and that in the event it is successful the adjustments will be made to protect the enrollees?

Go ahead, tie me to the stake and burn me for daring to speak such blasphemy as Marriott may actually do right by owners if the program is more successful than their worst predictions.  But isn't it remotely possible?  Just a teeny tiny little bit possible?


----------



## tombo

Susan you are very inteligent and post responses to defend marriott at every turn, yet to find some way to justify the theft of 7% to 10% of the entire Mariott points inventory by skimming (or instead using marriotts nice words instead of theft as you like to do "breakage") is unacceptable and something NO OTHER points timeshare organization does it.  To say that Marriott "must" do it to protect themselves from unknwn inventory is a joke. they worked on this thing for several years and went through every possible scenario before rolling the new program out. It is bult in profit for Marriott pure and simple, and it was designed that way on purpose hoping that they can slip it by the majority of owners while claiming to save them money by giving free exchanges and free lock-offs. the problem is that veryone on TUG has caught on to their trickery and deceit, everyone that is except possibly you. I think deep down you know this is very wrong, but like talking bad about a black sheep member of your family, I just don't think you can bring yourself to say anything negative about Marriott even if you know it to be true. You are for some reason loyal to Marriott in spite of the fact they they have shown no loyalty to you or any other owner when they rolled out this program.

If my week is worth 5000 points if someone else want to rent it, and the week they deposit will cost me 5000 pints to rent, then these are like fr like trades and I should get enough points using my deposit to exchange for their week. However thanks to skimming they can't deposit their 5000 point week and exchange for my 5000 point week, and I can't exchange for their's either because marriott won't give either of us enough points to make like for like exchanges. That is a ripoff and whether you prefer to call it skimming, theft, or breakage it is WRONG!!!!!


----------



## GregT

SueDonJ said:


> I'm responding here because it's for certain that Dave is going to lock your thread and send you back here.
> 
> About "skim" - or "breakage" as it's been referred to for all of the years that it's existed in other timeshare point systems - I agree that Marriott appears to have protected itself with a much larger percentage of breakage than the existing point systems.
> 
> But the one unknown that Marriott couldn't factor into any of its business model for the Points system is how much inventory can be expected from existing Weeks owners (whether enrolled or not.)  ALL of the documents are full of the "points values may be subject to change" because of that unknown.
> 
> I know, I know, on TUG Marriott is The Big Bad Playground Bully Out To Knock Us Around.  But in the real world  Marriott is a customer satisfaction leader in the hospitality industry.  Isn't it even .00000001% POSSIBLE that the breakage has been set so high at rollout to protect Marriott in the event that their most pessimistic expectations for this product are realized, and that in the event it is successful the adjustments will be made to protect the enrollees?
> 
> Go ahead, tie me to the stake and burn me for daring to speak such blasphemy as Marriott may actually do right by owners if the program is more successful than their worst predictions.  But isn't it remotely possible?  Just a teeny tiny little bit possible?




Sue,

Your points are very appropriate -- Marriott provides a tremendous hotel and service product and is very customer-service oriented.  The companies that I work for have always used them, or adopted the view that its Marriott's business to lose whenever we've done something significant (National Sales Meeting, etc).

Which is one of the reasons I'm so stunned at the skimming, it's so counter to the customer-service orientation I expected.   It has the appearance that existing owners are a captive audience ("we've already gotten their money and therefore we can do with them as we intend") which is the Wyndham model.  The Hilton model is we have extra units available, let's let our owners rent them for cheap so no unit sits empty.  It's a great perk and the type of thing that Marriott would have considered -- but didn't implement (at this time.)

I fully expect that Marriott will introduce an Open Season concept at some point, but at that point The Skim is permanent in place -- and many many owners will have purchased 1,000 points because they are just short to be able to use the system, or they opted out, minimizing the success of the system.

I can't figure out what Marriott was thinking -- and how they could have viewed The Skim as anything other than an unnecessary tax to the existing owner.   

And I don't want to viewed as rigidly discouraging all TUGgers to join -- this could be an excellent opportunity for a multiple week owner who does not need to buy additional points from Marriott, and likes the trades they would get with their existing (skimmed) points values.   For that owner, it is a simple decision of which system (points/direct) provides better access to the places you want to go and the additional $199 is not burdensome on that multiple-week owner.  It's the single week owner who now has to buy 1,000 points and pay $400 in new points MFs (in addition to $165) that I really feel for, all because they were skimmed on what their unit was worth.

Very frustrating.

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## ArtsieAng

GregT said:


> Sue,
> 
> Your points are very appropriate -- Marriott provides a tremendous hotel and service product and is very customer-service oriented.  The companies that I work for have always used them, or adopted the view that its Marriott's business to lose whenever we've done something significant (National Sales Meeting, etc).
> 
> Which is one of the reasons I'm so stunned at the skimming, it's so counter to the customer-service orientation I expected.   It has the appearance that existing owners are a captive audience ("we've already gotten their money and therefore we can do with them as we intend") which is the Wyndham model.  The Hilton model is we have extra units available, let's let our owners rent them for cheap so no unit sits empty.  It's a great perk and the type of thing that Marriott would have considered -- but didn't implement (at this time.)
> 
> I fully expect that Marriott will introduce an Open Season concept at some point, but at that point The Skim is permanent in place -- and many many owners will have purchased 1,000 points because they are just short to be able to use the system, or they opted out, minimizing the success of the system.
> 
> I can't figure out what Marriott was thinking -- and how they could have viewed The Skim as anything other than an unnecessary tax to the existing owner.
> 
> And I don't want to viewed as rigidly discouraging all TUGgers to join -- this could be an excellent opportunity for a multiple week owner who does not need to buy additional points from Marriott, and likes the trades they would get with their existing (skimmed) points values.   For that owner, it is a simple decision of which system (points/direct) provides better access to the places you want to go and the additional $199 is not burdensome on that multiple-week owner.  *It's the single week owner who now has to buy 1,000 points and pay $400 in new points MFs (in addition to $165) that I really feel for, all because they were skimmed on what their unit was worth.
> 
> Very frustrating.*
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg




I couldn't agree more! In addition, Marriott is imposing a 1000 point minimum. Many would need much less to get to the premium level, or to be able to reserve their initial purchase. Marriott is not even allowing Legacy Owners a break on purchasing points.

Some things are just not defendable, no matter how hard you try!


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Susan you are very inteligent and post responses to defend marriott at every turn, yet to find some way to justify the theft of 7% to 10% of the entire Mariott points inventory by skimming (or instead using marriotts nice words instead of theft as you like to do "breakage") is unacceptable and something NO OTHER points timeshare organization does. If my week is worth 5000 points if someone else want to rent it, and the week they deposit will cost me 5000 pints to rent, then these are like fr like trades and I should get enough points using my deposit to exchange for their week. However thanks to skimming they can't deposit their 5000 point week and exchange for my 5000 point week, and I can't exchange for their's either because marriott won't give either of us enough points to make like for like exchanges. That is a ripoff and whether you prefer to call it skimming, theft, or breakage.



EVERY timeshare points system has breakage.  Folks who own in some of those systems have posted to this thread the facts of their system's breakage.  Go back and look, it's right here.

You know, I just figured out in another thread that an exchange back into my home resort that I'm trying to do for next year will work (if there's availability, of course) practically the exact same way with Points as it will with II.  I have a 3BR Gold and I want a Plat week - in II it's 99% certain that an exchange won't be made unless I'm willing to accept a 2BR, and the 3BR gives me enough points for a 2BR.

So, using points I can't reserve a 3BR Gold using my 3BR Gold allotment, but using points will work the same as II. Considering that I was never promised or sold on the idea that my 3BR would always get me like-for-like, I'm satisfied with the exchange capabilities in the new system.

Not everyone will be.  I'm not saying everyone should be.  And I really wish people would stop saying that I defend Marriott "at every turn."  I defend Marriott with respect to how their product works for me, not for how it works for everyone else.  Isn't that what we all do, post about our own experiences?


----------



## wa.mama

wuv pooh said:


> I don't get this.  You lose nothing by joining except for the fee to join which is offset by points.
> 
> You save a bundle at $199 each year vs. current fees
> 
> You NEVER have to actually use points if you don't want to.
> 
> You keep the flexibility to use points in the future if it is to your advantage.
> 
> You can quit your annual commitment whenever you want if you hate it.
> 
> Why would you turn down the savings and flexibility?
> 
> You lose nothing by joining and potentially have great benefits in the future.  It is a free option on the future.



Why would I pay for an option I won't use and can't pass on to future owners?  I have to pay for II anyway to trade my non-Marriott weeks.  I'm with Tombo when he said,



tombo said:


> Welcome to Marriott's secret hidden points fees. Marriott brags that they don't have an exchange fee while they steal points making money (fees) by theft on every exchange. Under points they also claim no lock-off fees which is also a lie factoring in additional stolen points (skim). If you add the points totals required to reserve a studio and thepoints required to stay in a one bed room and compare the number of points required to stay in a 2 bed room same resort/season, the combined points required for the lock-offs are higher, so they are again charging a hidden fee. The owner deposits his 2 bed room week. marriott gives him less points than they will rent it for, they skimmed points. If a member rents a one bed room side and another member rents a studio, marriott will charge the 2 a combined point total higher than reserving the whole 2 bed room. More points skimmed, more Marriott hidden fees.Welcome to the new crokked, skimming, theiving marriott.



Many Tuggers see a positive side in paying for an additional option to their existing useage pattern.  For us, not only is it unneccessary but it's also relatively expensive (in regards to joining cost and points skimming).  I never buy the extended warranty on appliances - to me, this program is similar as it guarantees something I'll likely not need.  Marriott needs my prime weeks more than I need to pay them $$ for something not valuable to me.


----------



## WelcomeHome

*Is this statement correct?*



ArtsieAng said:


> It matters because along with the new system comes the ability for any premier/premier plus owner to book at any resort prior to many week owners reserving their week, at their home resort



Has this statement been verified? I thought point owners would be able to reserve from deeded owner's inventory ONLY IF a deeded owner deposited their week in II first or if the deeded owner exchanged his week for a different resort via points in an particular year? If premier plus points owners can select from the same inventory required for deeded owners weeks, then wouldn't the competition for prime weeks be dramatically increased to deeded owners at their own home resort???


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> Susan you are very inteligent and post responses to defend marriott at every turn, yet to find some way to justify the theft of 7% to 10% of the entire Mariott points inventory by skimming (or instead using marriotts nice words instead of theft as you like to do "breakage") is unacceptable and something NO OTHER points timeshare organization does it.  To say that Marriott "must" do it to protect themselves from unknwn inventory is a joke. they worked on this thing for several years and went through every possible scenario before rolling the new program out. It is bult in profit for Marriott pure and simple, and it was designed that way on purpose hoping that they can slip it by the majority of owners while claiming to save them money by giving free exchanges and free lock-offs. the problem is that veryone on TUG has caught on to their trickery and deceit, everyone that is except possibly you.
> 
> If my week is worth 5000 points if someone else want to rent it, and the week they deposit will cost me 5000 pints to rent, then these are like fr like trades and I should get enough points using my deposit to exchange for their week. However thanks to skimming they can't deposit their 5000 point week and exchange for my 5000 point week, and I can't exchange for their's either because marriott won't give either of us enough points to make like for like exchanges. That is a ripoff and whether you prefer to call it skimming, theft, or breakage.




I agree with your skimming, but not with your theft.

In order to 'steal' something from me you have to take something that belongs to me and not replace it with something that I consider of equal or eqivalent value.

Marriott has not taken anything of value from you that you currently own.  You have the same reservation right and usage right that you have today.  You also have the same exchange options that you had 1 week ago.

Note:  If Marriott does raid the weeks system to provide points inventory then I would consider that a theft if they did not provide equal compensation, and points are not equal in that sense.  A 4th of July week is not equal to 15th of Aug even though they have the same value in points.  I don't know if we could prove that one way or another, but it is a concern to me.

Marriott actions may also influence your resale options.  I personally have no interest in resale or the conflicting statements about it in the document, but that could help you or hurt you depending on how things work out and everyone's theories about value.  If it is true that the new program instantly devalues everyones resale value then I would consider that a theft.  However, if Marriott is successful in selling points, and cannot add inventory fast enough by building they may offer you money for your week so they can convert it to points and may pay you MORE than the pre 6/20 resale value.  That would not be a theft, but a benefit.  I think it will be a while before we know the outcome for resale values.

In order to provide a NEW benefit, Marriott has 'skimmed' points to make this possible.  Is that an equivalent value to the system as a whole?  That is unclear.  Since we do not have access to the 'other side of the curtain' we do not know what Marriotts true demand is, what the majority of their customers want, what the real breakage is, etc.  I see interesting opportunities because I work in pricing and every price realignment presents certain anomolies that can be exploited for your benefit.

Regardless, Marriott does not force you to join if you do not want to.  So unless there is a negative impact to you from the above 2 options you are no worse off, while I consider myself better off.  Certainly not a theft, but a win for Marriott.

Additionally Marriott has subsidized the entire system by charging less in fees than they + II presumably collected in total under the previous system.  Again, this is hard to verify but if you took the entire II membership costs + internal trades at $109 + lock off fees at $75 + points trade fees of $109 + reservation change fees of $29 then this is >= $165 or $199 per member.  My guess is that this is a true benefit to the new system.

The rest depends on your view of Marriott I guess.  I am a Platinum business traveller and very satisfied timeshare customer so I do not see any evil intent where others do.  They have always dealt straight with me, fixed my valid complaints, and treated me well.  I do not expect that to change in the future although I may be disappointed if other peoples fears come to fruition.

So I do not believe there has been a theft unless they begin to 'raid' the weeks system to current owners disadvantage or there is some permanent reduction in resale value.  Do you see any other areas where you are being robbed?


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> EVERY timeshare points system has breakage.  Folks who own in some of those systems have posted to this thread the facts of their system's breakage.  Go back and look, it's right here.
> 
> You know, I just figured out in another thread that an exchange back into my home resort that I'm trying to do for next year will work (if there's availability, of course) practically the exact same way with Points as it will with II.  I have a 3BR Gold and I want a Plat week - in II it's 99% certain that an exchange won't be made unless I'm willing to accept a 2BR, and the 3BR gives me enough points for a 2BR.
> 
> So, using points I can't reserve a 3BR Gold using my 3BR Gold allotment, but using points will work the same as II. Considering that I was never promised or sold on the idea that my 3BR would always get me like-for-like, I'm satisfied with the exchange capabilities in the new system.
> 
> ?



No other timeshare has "breakage or theft of 7% to 10%. You like to tout Marriott as being heads and shoulders above the rest of the timeshare developers. Now their claim to fame is yeah they are ripping owners off, but heck other timeshare companies do it too. Isn't that special? By the way, not only has Marriott decided to adopt a form of owner theft used by other developers, they have decided to steal more than any other developer does, and for that we should appreciate marriott?

For months before this was launched you were so happy because once they launched points you would finally be able to trade a 3 bed room and get a 3 bed room. Hurray for points, no more down trades. Now you are stating that you are actually happy that your points won't even be able to get you your own 3 bed room if you save your points to try and exchange into your home resort for the following year?  So after seeing how the points actually work and after admitting that they don't give you enough points to trade for another resort with the same points price as yours, it is suddenly OK that your 3 bed room will only exchange for a 2 bed room because it is what you could do before?

Below is your quote from a previous post. Please explain why you are "satisfied" with what marriot has come out with even though they won't even give you the number of points needed to rent your own 3 bed room week when you deposit your own week with them, much less exchange for 3 bed rooms at other resorts? It wasn't fair when II made you exchange your 3 bed week for a 2 bed week, but now when Marriott does the same thing it is "satisfactory"? Even when you felt cheated by II you were willing to forgive them the inequitable exchanges because that was how it was explained to you by you Marriott salesperson? Doesn't that sound a little like you are willing to forgive, believe, and trust Marriott no matter what they do?



SueDonJ said:


> What you're figuring for values is what I would expect, that among similar valued resorts a 3BR would be equal to another 3BR or a 2BR with a studio or a 1BR plus two studios, etc... Among all of the resorts, a 3BR could be worth more or less depending on the overall rating of the specific resorts. (In other words, what I'd get on Hilton Head during Platinum season might be more than what I'd get in Hawaii, or less than what I'd get in Silver season or at an Orlando resort.) That sounds okay, fair even. And I love the idea of lower point costs throughout the system during a flexchange-type period.
> 
> What happens now with my 3BR non-lockoff in II isn't as fair. 3BR inventory is extremely limited so up to this point I've had to accept 2BR units in exchanges regardless of whether the exchange resort is of more or less quality than what I own, with an AC only some of those times that could be upgraded during flexchange. Other than the possibility of an AC, if an exchange to a 3BR is next to impossible, I can't imagine that I could get in II an upgrade from a 3BR no matter when the request is made.
> 
> Like I've said, though, the way exchanges work in II is what I've expected because that's how it was explained by the Marriott salesperson. If Marriott doesn't roll out something new here I'll still be satisfied with II, but I am optimistic that what Marriott may offer might work better for me. We'll see.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> No other timeshare has "breakage or theft of 7% to 10%. You like to tout Marriott as being heads and shoulders above the rest of the timeshare developers. Now their claim to fame is yeah they are ripping owners off, but heck other timeshare companies do it too. Isn't that special? By the way, not only has Marriott decided to adopt a form of owner theft used by other developers, they have decided to steal more than any other developer does, and for that we should appreciate marriott?
> 
> For months before this was launched you were so happy because once they launched points you would finally be able to trade a 3 bed room and get a 3 bed room. Hurray for points, no more down trades. Now you are stating that you are actually happy that your points won't even be able to get you your own 3 bed room if you save your points to try and exchange into your home resort for the following year?  So after seeing how the points actually work and after admitting that they don't give you enough points to trade for another resort with the same points price as yours, it is suddenly OK that your 3 bed room will only exchange for a 2 bed room because it is what you could do before?
> 
> Below is your quote from a previous post. Please explain why you are "satisfied" with what marriot has come out with even though they won't even give you the number of points needed to rent your own 3 bed room week when you deposit your own week with them, much less exchange for 3 bed rooms at other resorts? It wasn't fair when II made you exchange your 3 bed week for a 2 bed week, but now when Marriott does the same thing it is "satisfactory"? Doesn't that sound a little like you are willing to forgive Marriott no matter what they do?



If my 3BR points value gets me a 2BR in exchange back to my home resort in a higher-demand season, with points left over to be used in a studio or 1BR somewhere else, how is that any different than what I said in the post you quoted?  This is what I said - what is different about how it's working?



> ... What you're figuring for values is what I would expect, that among similar valued resorts a 3BR would be equal to another 3BR or a 2BR with a studio or a 1BR plus two studios, etc... Among all of the resorts, a 3BR could be worth more or less depending on the overall rating of the specific resorts. ...


----------



## jlee2070

*can "we" put up a poll on this???*

Can we get a Poll on this?

Who's definitely converting?
Who Might Convert?
Definitely NOT converting?

anything else??


----------



## SueDonJ

jlee2070 said:


> Can we get a Poll on this?
> 
> Who's definitely converting?
> Who Might Convert?
> Definitely NOT converting?
> 
> anything else??



jlee, here's a thread that asked the question, maybe a moderator can attach a poll to it?


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> I agree with your skimming, but not with your theft.
> 
> In order to 'steal' something from me you have to take something that belongs to me and not replace it with something that I consider of equal or eqivalent value.
> 
> ?



I have a week worth 5000 points. I deposit it with Marriott. They give me fewer points than the value of what I gave them. They pocket the difference. Whether you want to call them con men, theives, or simply unethical businessmen, the end result is I don't get the full value of the ponts allocated to my week.

I purchased the week which Marriott determined to be worth 5000 points, I pay MF's on it, I pay $165 a year to be able to swap my week into points to do exchanges, I paid $1495 for the ability to use points, and after all of my financial outlay Marriott feels that they should have the right to skim 7% to 10% of the value of what I own and paid to use. Is it technically theft? No because if I give them my week I knew what I was getting for it, but it is still theft in my opinion because they leave you no choice other than to be locked out of the points program and possibly make what you own almost worthless.

Of course the reality of the points program will preclude myself and many others from joining. They will operate it whithout any contribution of weeks or infusion of cash from me, and I hope the points venture is a resounding bust. The more owners that know the true details, the fewer owners I believe will convert, and many of those who mistakenly convert will never deposit their week for points after they discover that marriott will give them less points for their deposit than it is worth. Time will tell.


----------



## jerseygirl

SueDonJ said:


> EVERY timeshare points system has breakage.  Folks who own in some of those systems have posted to this thread the facts of their system's breakage.  Go back and look, it's right here.



Can you please point to another (comparable) system that has breakage?  I own at Starwood, Hyatt and Hilton and none have breakage.  Thanks.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> EVERY timeshare points system has breakage.  Folks who own in some of those systems have posted to this thread the facts of their system's breakage.  Go back and look, it's right here.



I own with Starwood, and they don't have breakage. My week is worth 148K points and it costs 148K points to reserve in my season. The number of points by day varies, but adds up to 148K. The number of points for a small 1BR and a large 1BR vary but add up to 148K... "saying EVERY timeshare points system has breakage" is just false.

By the way, the latter is the second form of skimming we haven't discussed much. Why should a studio + a 1BR be more points than a 2BR? Even if you got the same points as it takes to trade in,you still couldn't trade to a comparable resort and stay 2 weeks back to back in smaller units... So every time someone downgrades in size, Marriott profits.

Frankly, I don't even understand the concept... what does breakage even mean? As a weeks owner did you pay extra when weeks at your resort went unused? You paid extra if people defaulted on MFs, but who cared if weeks go unused? Why should I care now if occupancy is at 90% or 99% as long as MFs are paid? How does the breakage benefit owners? The way I see it, Marriott will just rent what they can the moment they can grab it for themselves.


----------



## DavidnRobin

jerseygirl said:


> Can you please point to another (comparable) system that has breakage?  I own at Starwood, Hyatt and Hilton and none have breakage.  Thanks.



Hi jg and DanCali - (what the heck am I doing over here!? just curious... like watching a car-wreck...) - if I understand the definition of 'breakage' (misaligned # of points needed to trade into a resort than given to owners) - there are a couple of SVO resorts that do this (e.g. SVR-Fountains I believe - I do not own these...) where the amount of SOs (points) to exchange into a resort is higher than given to owners.

the mantra - buy where you want to go has never been more true - back to the Starwood board I go.


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> I have a week worth 5000 points. I deposit it with Marriott. They give me fewer points than the value of what I gave them. They pocket the difference. Whether you want to call them con men, theives, or simply unethical businessmen, the end result is I don't get the full value of the ponts allocated to my week.
> 
> I purchased the week which Marriott determined to be worth 5000 points, I pay MF's on it, I pay $165 a year to be able to swap my week into points to do exchanges, I paid $1495 for the ability to use points, and after all of my financial outlay Marriott feels that they should have the right to skim 7% to 10% of the value of what I own and paid to use. Is it technically theft? No because if I give them my week I knew what I was getting for it, but it is still theft in my opinion because they leave you no choice other than to be locked out of the points program and possibly make what you own almost worthless.
> 
> Of course the reality of the points program will preclude myself and many others from joining. They will operate it whithout any contribution of weeks or infusion of cash from me, and I hope the points venture is a resounding bust. The more owners that know the true details, the fewer owners I believe will convert, and many of those who mistakenly convert will never deposit their week for points after they discover that marriott will give them less points for their deposit than it is worth. Time will tell.



I believe that is incorrect logically and ethically.

You are no worse off if you do not join, subject to my two disclaimers.

If you do join you receive an additional benefit.  Presumably you would not join unless unless the benefit was equal to the cost of joining.

The only other option is that your feel compelled to join out of fear or intimidation so you do not truly have a choice.  From your posts I do not believe that you feel that way.

So again I ask, Why is it theft for Marriott to give me more value while not harming you in any way?

So far I can think of two ways you can be harmed:

1. If they 'raid' weeks inventory.
2. If there is a permanent reduction in resale value.

Any others?


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> If my 3BR points value gets me a 2BR in exchange back to my home resort in a higher-demand season, with points left over to be used in a studio or 1BR somewhere else, how is that any different than what I said in the post you quoted?  This is what I said - what is different about how it's working?



Thi is your quote about how II was treating you unfairly:



SueDonJ said:


> What happens now with my 3BR non-lockoff in II isn't as fair. 3BR inventory is extremely limited so up to this point I've had to accept 2BR units in exchanges regardless of whether the exchange resort is of more or less quality than what I own



Now when Marriott does the same thing under the points program you post that it is "satisfactory " because it is all you could get before. It was unsatisfactory when II made you downgrade exchanges from 3 bed to 2 bed units as stated above. Now it is "satisfactory" because marriott points are doing the same thing? You still can't exchange like for like, the only difference is unlike the rest of us who are shorted points by Marriott's skimming, you can still get a 2 bed unit and have some change left over. Well we can do the same thing. We can reserve one bed room units using our 2 bed deposit and have some change left too, but that still precludes you and the rest of us from being able to make like for like exchanges, and that is sooo wrong. I just thought you might finally admit it too. 

I guess your loyalty won't let you say bad things about Marriot even when the facts are in front of you in black and white. You had no problem being upset with II for making you accept 2 bed exchanges for your 3 bed deposit with an AC left as change, but it is now somehow "satisfactory" to have Marriott not give you enough points to get the same 3 bed exchange you were upset that II wouldn't give you, and it is now OK when Marriott using points makes you settle for 2 bed exchanges plus some change. I guess what is most important with regards to whether you are upset or not is whether it is Marriott or II that is cheating you out of swapping your 3 bed unit for  like 3 bed units, rather than the unequitable trades themselves.


----------



## DanCali

DavidnRobin said:


> Hi jg - (what the heck am I doing over here!? just curious... like watching a car-wreck...) - if I understand the definition of 'breakage' (misaligned # of points needed to trade into a resort than given to owners) - there are a couple of SVO resorts that do this (e.g. SVR-Fountains I believe - I do not own these...) where the amount of SOs (points) to exchange into a resort is higher than given to owners.
> 
> the mantra - buy where you want to go has never been more true - back to the Starwood board I go.



Must be slow on the Starwood board these days

With SVR that was a legacy issue where people got the average of their "old" season, which was float 1-52. But, as far as I know, it was the true average (76K points). Some weeks are more and some are less (67K or 81K) to trade into, depending on the "new" season.


----------



## ArtsieAng

> wuv pooh
> 
> So far I can think of two ways you can be harmed:
> 
> 1. If they 'raid' weeks inventory.
> 2. If there is a permanent reduction in resale value.
> 
> Any others?



How about it being more difficult to get a decent week at your home resort? Does that not count as being harmed, because to me, that's huge! I can't see how this new system will not impact reserving your week at your home resort unless you are a premier/premier plus owner. 

Do you believe it will have no impact on reserving at your home resort?

edited to add: So, I may not be able to get any decent trades, because Marriott may raid weeks in the system, and I most likely won't be able to reserve a decent week to use at my home resort......How much worse can it get?

Marriott = The Grinch That Stole Christmas! LOL


----------



## jerseygirl

To be fair, here are examples of fees associated with Hilton, where all "points in" are equal to "points out:"

Annual Dues $99
Home Reservation $0
Club Reservation $49 (can make most changes without penalty)
Convert to Hhonors Points $69
Deposit Forward ("bank")  $69
Borrow $0

So, it would appear that if own owns many weeks and makes multiple "club" transactions each year, the fees are certainly higher than Marriott's all inclusive fee.   Is this a similar "cost" to Marriott's "breakage/skimming?"  I'll leave that to the DanCalis and BocaBums who love to perform complicated financial calculations!  I just know that my own personal preference is to pay for the perks I use each year, and only the perks I use, with the confidence that my number of points is exactly equal to the number of points required for comparable trades.


----------



## jerseygirl

DanCali said:


> Must be slow on the Starwood board these days
> 
> With SVR that was a legacy issue where people got the average of their "old" season, which was float 1-52. But, as far as I know, it was the true average (76K points). Some weeks are more and some are less (67K or 81K) to trade into, depending on the "new" season.



Agreed -- I posted about it here:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=933199#post933199

Also agree that it's slow on the Starwood board these days!  Who would have ever thought Marriott could "out trump" Starwood when it comes to bad publicity!  Maybe our resale values will start to rise!


----------



## DavidnRobin

DanCali said:


> Must be slow on the Starwood board these days
> 
> With SVR that was a legacy issue where people got the average of their "old" season, which was float 1-52. But, as far as I know, it was the true average (76K points). Some weeks are more and some are less (67K or 81K) to trade into, depending on the "new" season.



Yep - and I am still basking in vacation glow from our 2-weeks at Westin St John...

I was over here to try and figure out what was going on - this thread must be the all-time winner in the #post/day.  As a partially biased non-Marriott owner - Marriott is really screwing Marriott Owners here no matter how one cuts it.  I am afraid that the upper-managment at SVO is trying to figure out how to outdue MVC managment in screwing over their owners so they can be #1 again in sucking as much $ they can from the Owners while keeping their house of cards from falling...  It might be challenging - but I am sure SVO will come up with something.


----------



## jerseygirl

DavidnRobin said:


> I am afraid that the upper-managment at SVO is trying to figure out how to outdue MVC managment in screwing over their owners so they can be #1 again in sucking as much $ they can from the Owners while keeping their house of cards from falling...  It might be challenging - but I am sure SVO will come up with something.



My fears exactly!  :hysterical:


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> I believe that is incorrect logically and ethically.
> 
> You are no worse off if you do not join, subject to my two disclaimers.
> 
> If you do join you receive an additional benefit.  Presumably you would not join unless unless the benefit was equal to the cost of joining.
> 
> The only other option is that your feel compelled to join out of fear or intimidation so you do not truly have a choice.  From your posts I do not believe that you feel that way.
> 
> So again I ask, Why is it theft for Marriott to give me more value while not harming you in any way?
> 
> So far I can think of two ways you can be harmed:
> 
> 1. If they 'raid' weeks inventory.
> 2. If there is a permanent reduction in resale value.
> 
> Any others?




Those are the 2 main possible problems from not converting, however the spin offs from those 2 main things create a possible myriad of new losses in actual useage for those of us who won't convert.

Every time someone joins points Marriott gets their vote. How long before weeks owners can be outvoted by Marriott on anything Marriott feels like doing? This was sold as an owners program, the points trust setup with now vote turns it into a Marriott program with members paying dues. This is a whole different situation than people bought into.

If enough people join points to where there is little inventory to exchange for, I have lost access to what I have traded for in the past, and what I could have continued trading for in the future if Marriott hadn't implemented a totally separate points program. All inventory was weeks. Everything Marriot sold was weeks. I had as much access to Marriot inventory as every other owner. Now there are 2 separate classes and groups of owners, weeks and points. Marriott avors points from a profit standpoint and is looking to create advantages for points owners to convince them to convert. Marriott is trying to get everyone into points, they are only selling points, and they are probably raiding weeks II prime inventory to put into points inventory. They are activelly trying to make access to weeks inventory as small as possible to promote points, and any advantages given to points owners will be translated into disadvantages to weeks owners who don't convert. 

Win or lose I am not converting. The fact that they might not actually be able to reduce my resale value or  drastically diminish my access to exchange inventory (depending on the success of points), none of that changes the fact that they are trying to make what I purchased, what they originally sold, become as close to worthless as they can make it. And that is theft of dollar value and intrinsic values whether you can actually attach a dollar value to it or not.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Thi is your quote about how II was treating you unfairly:
> 
> 
> 
> Now when Marriott does the same thing under the points program you post that it is "satisfactory " because it is all you could get before. It was unsatisfactory when II made you downgrade exchanges from 3 bed to 2 bed units as stated above. Now it is "satisfactory" because marriott points are doing the same thing? You still can't exchange like for like, the only difference is unlike the rest of us who are shorted points by Marriott's skimming, you can still get a 2 bed unit and have some cange left over. Well we can do the same thing. We can reserve one bed room units using our 2 bed deposit and have some change left too, but that still precludes you and the rest of us from being able to make like for like exchanges, and that is sooo wrong. I just thought you might finally admit it too.
> 
> I guess your loyalty won't let you say bad things about Marriot even when the facts are in front of you in black and white. You had no problem being upset with II for making you accept 2 bed exchanges for your 3 bed deposit with an AC left as change, but it is now somehow "satisfactory" to have Marriott not give you enough points to get the same 3 bed exchange you were upset that II wouldn't give you, and it is now OK whne Marriott using points makes you settle for 2 bed exchanges plus some change.



You're not understanding what I'm saying (or you're deliberately misconstruing it to fit your argument?)

With II my 3BR deposit for an exchange request, whether it's back into my home resort or not, would 99.9% of the time get me a 2BR in return because of the lack of availability.  This particular example is a Gold for a Plat request, which puts me somewhere below all the Plat deposits which have higher trade value than mine.  Some years a Plat week deposit gave me an AC in addition which required usage fees; AC's have not been offered for the same 2011 deposit.

With Points my 3BR Gold is worth 4625; a 2BR in a week which falls on the weeks calendar as a Plat will cost me 3725 points for a gardenview or 4500 for an oceanside unit.  Both give me MORE than what I'd get with II.  And I've looked at other resorts for exchanging, even posted in this thread about one example, and am happy with the results.

You're right.  They're not giving me for my interval enough points for me to exchange back in and book that interval.  But they ARE giving me enough points to get MORE than what I could reasonably expect from II, and that's enough for me.  That's what I said would be enough for me.

It isn't enough for everyone.  I get that.  It isn't enough for you, obviously.  But for whatever reason, you want everyone under the sun to agree with you that "IT IS NOT ENOUGH" across the board.  I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.


----------



## wuv pooh

ArtsieAng said:


> How about it being more difficult to get a decent week at your home resort? Does that not count as being harmed, because to me, that's huge! I can't see how this new system will not impact reserving your week at your home resort unless you are a premier/premier plus owner.
> 
> Do you believe it will have no impact on reserving at your home resort?



That is a good one.

Right now we are all eligible to call in at 12 months for at least 50% of the inventory.

Has this changed?

Can Marriott call in at 9:00:00 for its points users who want that week on the wait list and everyone else can call in at 9:00:01.  For weeks that Marriott controls can they 'jump' the gun on us or does the fact that they are premier plus owners mean that they will always reserve up to 50% of the inventory 13 months out if their points owners demand it and never really think about it again.

I think they document where weeks come from, but do they document how they will use floating weeks in the inventory system?  If the resort has 50 units and 50 people turn in floating weeks can they book all 50 of those in one week or do they have to be proportinate?


----------



## Y-ASK

tombo said:


> I have a week worth 5000 points. I deposit it with Marriott. They give me fewer points than the value of what I gave them. They pocket the difference. Whether you want to call them con men, theives, or simply unethical businessmen, the end result is I don't get the full value of the ponts allocated to my week.



Boy are you hung up on this.  Yes we know you don't like the system.  I respect your opinion and right to say so (maybe not over and over ), but come on, calling Marriott "theives", "con men", etc is way over the top.

If you have a $100 worth 10000 pennies and you open a checking account in a regular bank and do nothing for two years, I bet when you go to withdrawal that 10000 pennies you only have 8000-9000 left if you're lucky.  Would you call that bank a bunch of theives?

It's the price of doing business and no one said that you had to deposit that $100 bucks into that bank in the 1st place.  You could have deposited it in a Credit Union and not lost anything...

So please tone it down some.  Not all of us feel like we are getting ripped off...

Y-ASK


----------



## floyddl

jerseygirl said:


> To be fair, here are examples of fees associated with Hilton, where all "points in" are equal to "points out:"
> 
> Annual Dues $99
> Home Reservation $0
> Club Reservation $49 (can make most changes without penalty)
> Convert to Hhonors Points $69
> Deposit Forward ("bank")  $69
> Borrow $0
> 
> So, it would appear that if own owns many weeks and makes multiple "club" transactions each year, the fees are certainly higher than Marriott's all inclusive fee.   Is this a similar "cost" to Marriott's "breakage/skimming?"  I'll leave that to the DanCalis and BocaBums who love to perform complicated financial calculations!  I just know that my own personal preference is to pay for the perks I use each year, and only the perks I use, with the confidence that my number of points is exactly equal to the number of points required for comparable trades.



I agree and this is especially true of an owner that only has one week.  The 7% breakage far exceeds any saving a single week owner can recoup on Marriott's fixed annual fee.  I own Hilton also and find the program to be excellent (except for the limited locations).  I don't know about other programs but Hilton will not allow single night reservations (3 night min) until the 60 day window.  I think Marriott allowing it starting at 13 months may lead to more breakage but that unused time has been paid for in dues.


----------



## camachinist

> Has this changed?



Unknown at this point, but owners who have tracked historical patterns at their home resorts should be watching. I know, at my home resort, NCV, there still is substantial unsold inventory within developer control and I've watched the summer season carefully there, reservations, renting and exchanging, for the past seven years. We'll see how it goes.  I find it somewhat ironic that Marriott picks the precise middle (July 26) of the busy summer season in most locations to fire up this little points 'enhancement'. 

I can say I've already seen a marked change from historical patterns in exchange inventory, in all seasons. Platinum season has just begun and the 13 month owners are chewing on it right now. We'll see.


----------



## mkahanek

*hmm*



Y-ASK said:


> Boy are you hung up on this.  Yes we know you don't like the system.  I respect your opinion and right to say so (maybe not over and over ), but come on, calling Marriott "theives", "con men", etc is way over the top.
> 
> If you have a $100 worth 10000 pennies and you open a checking account in a regular bank and do nothing for two years, I bet when you go to withdrawal that 10000 pennies you only have 8000-9000 left if you're lucky.  Would you call that bank a bunch of theives?
> 
> It's the price of doing business and no one said that you had to deposit that $100 bucks into that bank in the 1st place.  You could have deposited it in a Credit Union and not lost anything...
> 
> So please tone it down some.  Not all of us feel like we are getting ripped off...
> 
> Y-ASK



I don't know if I would go so far as to call them theives.  But it does seem pretty crappy that my week yields 4025 and the CHEAPEST week in the CHEAPEST season will require 4050.   Especially after my salesdude said I "could go anywhere I wanted with this hawaii week"


----------



## ArtsieAng

wuv pooh said:


> That is a good one.
> 
> Right now we are all eligible to call in at 12 months for at least 50% of the inventory.
> 
> Has this changed?
> 
> Can Marriott call in at 9:00:00 for its points users who want that week on the wait list and everyone else can call in at 9:00:01.  For weeks that Marriott controls can they 'jump' the gun on us or does the fact that they are premier plus owners mean that they will always reserve up to 50% of the inventory 13 months out if their points owners demand it and never really think about it again.
> 
> I think they document where weeks come from, but do they document how they will use floating weeks in the inventory system?  If the resort has 50 units and 50 people turn in floating weeks can they book all 50 of those in one week or do they have to be proportionate?



I would think that would have to change. It will most likely be based on percentages. After all, if 75% of owners converted to points, Marriott wouldn't be expected to reserve 50% of the inventory for week owners.

At any rate, the problem I foresee is not with percentages, be it 50%, or a percentage of points vs weeks. It's allowing anyone who is a premier/premier plus owner to reserve at my home resort at 13 months, prior to me being able to reserve my week. By the time the 12th month roles around, all the good weeks will be gone.


----------



## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> Those are the 2 main possible problems from not converting, however the spin offs from those 2 main things create a possible myriad of new losses in actual useage for those of us who won't convert.
> 
> Every time someone joins points Marriott gets their vote. How long before weeks owners can be outvoted by Marriott on anything Marriott feels like doing? This was sold as an owners program, the points trust setup with now vote turns it into a Marriott program with members paying dues. This is a whole different situation than people bought into.
> 
> If enough people join points to where there is little inventory to exchange for, I have lost access to what I have traded for in the past, and what I could have continued trading for in the future if Marriott hadn't implemented a totally separate points program. All inventory was weeks. Everything Marriot sold was weeks. I had as much access to Marriot inventory as every other owner. Now there are 2 separate classes and groups of owners, weeks and points. Marriott avors points from a profit standpoint and is looking to create advantages for points owners to convince them to convert. Marriott is trying to get everyone into points, they are only selling points, and they are probably raiding weeks II prime inventory to put into points inventory. They are activelly trying to make access to weeks inventory as small as possible to promote points, and any advantages given to points owners will be translated into disadvantages to weeks owners who don't convert.
> 
> Win or lose I am not converting. The fact that they might not actually be able to reduce my resale value or  drastically diminish my access to exchange inventory (depending on the success of points), none of that changes the fact that they are trying to make what I purchased, what they originally sold, become as close to worthless as they can make it. And that is theft of dollar value and intrinsic values whether you can actually attach a dollar value to it or not.



I agree with that, and the unknown contingencies are what will drive me to enroll.  Marriott is compelling me to enroll to mitigate the risk of an unknown future.  My emotional side says "that's not fair", my logical side says "I can work it to my advantage just like the old system", my selfish side says "If Marriott is going to screw weeks owners then I want to be on their side of the game".

It is really a fascinating insight into human behavior and corporate and individual change.  If anyone is looking for a good business school thesis this would be a great subject to study   Lots of good source material stored on the Tug server between the speculation thread and all these threads.  Not so fascinating to be going through it though :hysterical:


----------



## floyddl

mkahanek said:


> I don't know if I would go so far as to call them theives.  But it does seem pretty crappy that my week yields 4025 and the CHEAPEST week in the CHEAPEST season will require 4050.   Especially after my salesdude said I "could go anywhere I wanted with this hawaii week"



That sales dude was telling the truth for the most part.  Now we have a new ball game and you still may be able to do it but if you want to play equitably in the new points stadium you will have to buy more expensive tickets to get in the game.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> With Points my 3BR Gold is worth 4625; a 2BR in a week which falls on the weeks calendar as a Plat will cost me 3725 points for a gardenview or 4500 for an oceanside unit.  Both give me MORE than what I'd get with II.  And I've looked at other resorts for exchanging, even posted in this thread about one example, and am happy with the results.
> 
> .



What can you do with 125 leftover points if you reserve oceanside (which is still a down trade from your 3 bed unit)? Given the choice would you rather swap your 3 bed for a 2 bed in II (including swapping for 2 bed units you cant afford using points) and get an occasional AC, or get a 2 bed week you can afford with your allocated points and 125 points back in change? The 125 points is only good for 2 years before they expire, so 250 points for 2 trades over 2 years. Would you rather have 250 points every 2 years or on AC? Peruse the points chart and see what you can reserve for 250 points. Basically the change Marriott gives you is almost worthless. If you read the points charts I bet that many 2 bed rooms you exchanged for in the past using II cost more points more than you can afford with 4625 annual Marriott  points. Before assuming you are better off, see how many previous 2 bed trades through II are now out of reach using points.


----------



## SueDonJ

Um, Er, is anybody else askeered that the Starwood folks are invading the Marriott board?  Last time they did this a thread got shut down for bad behavior ...  

No, really, welcome Starwood people!  It was very helpful to compare and contrast Marriott with Starwood through all the months of speculation, and I'm happy that you're willing to help us now that it's rolled out.


----------



## ArtsieAng

> Originally Posted by DavidnRobin
> I am afraid that the upper-managment at SVO is trying to figure out how to outdue MVC managment in screwing over their owners so they can be #1 again in sucking as much $ they can from the Owners while keeping their house of cards from falling... It might be challenging - but I am sure SVO will come up with something.




:hysterical:  :hysterical:  :hysterical:


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> What can you do with 125 leftover points if you reserve oceanside (which is still a down trade from your 3 bed unit)? Given the choice would you rather swap your 3 bed for a 2 bed in II (including swapping for 2 bed units you cant afford using points) and get an occasional AC, or get a 2 bed week you can afford with your allocated points and 125 points back in change? The 125 points is only good for 2 years before they expire, so 250 points for 2 trades over 2 years. Would you rather have 250 points every 2 years or on AC? Peruse the points chart and see what you can reserve for 250 points. Basically the change Marriott gives you is almost worthless. If you read the points charts I bet that many 2 bed rooms you exchanged for in the past using II cost more points more than you can afford with 4625 annual Marriott  points. Before assuming you are better off, see how many previous 2 bed trades through II are now out of reach using points.



Given that an AC is not guaranteed with II and any surplus points above and beyond what I'm exchanging with Points is, I'll take the guarantee every time.  Given that there was so much guesswork about trade value (and trade-downs more possible than trade-ups for me) in II and with Points it's all right there in front of me for instant access, I'll take Points every time.

Tombo, I'm sorry this isn't something that works for you.  Honestly.  Can't you just accept that it works for me and I'm satisfied with it?  I really would like to just end this argument, but obviously neither one of us is the type to walk away without the last word.     It'll practically kill me to do it, but this has to end.  I'm done.  We disagree about "skim" or "breakage" or whatever you want to call it.  We always will.  Please can't we just end it as friends? :hysterical:


----------



## jerseygirl

SueDonJ said:


> Um, Er, is anybody else askeered that the Starwood folks are invading the Marriott board?  Last time they did this a thread got shut down for bad behavior ...
> 
> No, really, welcome Starwood people!  It was very helpful to compare and contrast Marriott with Starwood through all the months of speculation, and I'm happy that you're willing to help us now that it's rolled out.



Thanks for the welcome.     Sorry if there was bad behavior on a previous thread -- I must have missed it.  On the Starwood board, we're like a big old disfunctional family at Thanksgiving.  We fight a lot, but mostly enjoy each others' company (with a few black sheep exceptions -- just like that Thanksgiving dinner!).

I was really hoping you'd respond to my earlier question regarding other systems with breakage.  I'm truly trying to understand it as I think if "mother Marriott" does it, other systems may soon follow.  Thanks!


----------



## rsackett

Y-ASK said:


> Boy are you hung up on this.  Yes we know you don't like the system.  I respect your opinion and right to say so (maybe not over and over ), but come on, calling Marriott "theives", "con men", etc is way over the top.
> 
> If you have a $100 worth 10000 pennies and you open a checking account in a regular bank and do nothing for two years, I bet when you go to withdrawal that 10000 pennies you only have 8000-9000 left if you're lucky.  Would you call that bank a bunch of theives?
> 
> It's the price of doing business and no one said that you had to deposit that $100 bucks into that bank in the 1st place.  You could have deposited it in a Credit Union and not lost anything...
> 
> So please tone it down some.  Not all of us feel like we are getting ripped off...
> 
> Y-ASK



I think because it is not spelled out as an exchange fee and seems like Marriott was trying to hide this or think people would not notice is what has people upset.
On one hand Marriott states "your annual fee of covers all internal Marriott trades", but then takes a bit of your points to pay for it bothers people.
I think it would have been fairer for Marriott to say, "All II Marriott exchanges are covered by your annual fee, all points trades cost $xx per trade", and adjust the fee accordingly.  If you have a week that costs 4000 points to get and Marriott gives you 93% of that amount that results in 280 points Marriott kept.  If those points are worth $0.40 (Marriott's number) in maintenance fees that is a dollar value of $112.  This seems like a high exchange charge, in addition to your yearly fee, if you went for one exchange (a 7 day week). If you did 7 one day exchanges this would not seem so bad.  This is why I think Marriott would have been better off giving full value in point to weeks owners and charged a small fee per exchange.

Ray


----------



## hotcoffee

pacheco18 said:


> Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth  the same.



This is the good part of the program for current resale owners.  The level playing field tempts me to join.  The amount of inventory that will be available under the new vs. the old systems is what is scaring me.



pacheco18 said:


> Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate.  Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed.  I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about.  The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.



This sounds like it would be the opinion of someone whose future is pretty secure.  I suspect that many, if not most, owners would like the option to sell if it no longer makes sense to own a timeshare.  Paying the yearly maintenance fees might even burden their heirs.  The argument that timeshares are not an investment is a red herring argument.  Everyone here knows that they depreciate severely after a developer purchase.  I am more concerned that it might be someday nearly impossible to even give a Marriott timeshare away because of the maintenance fees and lack of inventory.  There should be some value in owning a timeshare even if it is significantly less than its original purchase price.  Marriott's argument is that a resale purchaser under the new program will still be able to use his timeshare just like we have been doing in the past.  They just will not be able to join the new system.  However, what they are really hoping for is that so little inventory will remain under the old system, no one will ever purchase resale.  So, instead of like, for example, Honda, which boasts about the resale value of its cars, Marriott would like to destroy the resale option completely if they can pull that off.


----------



## WelcomeHome

*Can someone please take a moment to answer me???*



ArtsieAng said:


> It matters because along with the new system comes the ability for any premier/premier plus owner to book at any resort prior to many week owners reserving their week, at their home resort.



I'd still like to know if it's been verified that Marriott can and will legally do this?
I just want a simple answer, or if this an issue that is still uncertain?


Thanks,
David


----------



## Brenda

*I am a happy camper*

I enrolled all my weeks and the more I see the flexibility. The more I love it.
I may be one of the few on the board that think the points program is plus for owners. I understand that each of us have our own style of vacationing and what's good for one may not be good for another. However, I do believe that maybe we need to just stop and open our horizons and look at vacationing a little differently that before. Instead of only going to your owned resort each year, you have the flexibility of reserving at all of them. Have you seen the packages:

1)  Hawaii Sampler Aug 26-Nov 11 9 nights 3825 pts for OV, 
                                                          2775 pts for Garden
     Maui Ocean Club 1 Bed 3 nights  1,500 pts
     Ko"olina  1 Bed 3 nights             1,275 pts
     Kauai     1 Bed 3 nights             1,050 pts

2) Florida Parks and Beach  June 3 - Sept 1  3,800 pts
     Harbour Lake (Orlando) 2 Bed 7 nights  2,675 pts
     Ocean Point   2 Bed OF3 nights           1,125 pts

3) Ski in the Rockies  Jan 14 - March 24  1,675 pts
    Streamside Vail  1 Bed  4 nights    850 pts
    Maountain Valley  1 Bed  3 nights  825 pts

4) California Dreaming Spring Apr 29-June 2  2,000 pts.
     Newport Coast Villas  2 Bed  3 nights   900 pts
     Shadow Ridge  2 Bed  3 nights           1,100 

Others have posted using the resorts from Sun to Thur to maximize points and then stay at a hotel for the weekend either pay and get more reward points or redeem reward points. I can use my 4950 points I get for a 2 Bed at MKO and stay 15 nights in a 1 Bed at the same resort. That beats a 1 bed and a studio for 7 nights each any day. I hate studios. 

Look at your total points available and play around with the new offerings. 

I don't agree with all the talk about skimming. You don't trade to use your own week. You only trade to go to a resort you don't own. For a trade to a resort you don't own, to be able to select your days and view, there is a price to pay. You pay with more points. You don't own there, you pay more.

I am happy with Marriott. To me the Destination program is a BIG plus. I really enjoy flexibility. With the new point system that's what I have. I also own at WorldMark and Hilton, where both systems allow me to add a few days to my vacation trips. Now I can do the same with Marriott. Many times I use less than a week with Marriott. I just returned from a week at Summit Watch where I traded a full week but only stayed 4 nights. I was in Salt Lake City for the weekend for business and decided to visit Park City for a few days. What a waste. Now I can book just 3 or 4 days during the cheap points weekday allotment. I also like that now I can select my view, where before trading through II, I ended up with less view than what I traded. I own OF and OV at most of my resorts and had to settle for garden or parking lot view with an II trade. I don't mind paying extra with points to get what I enjoy. 

The real plus for me is that I did buy all my Marriotts through Marriott, mostly pre-construction, which is also a big savings. It is now paying off that I only pay $695 to enroll 6 units and I am immediately premium plus, where I can reserve even 1 day at 13 months at any of the resorts. That is powerful.


----------



## SueDonJ

wuv pooh said:


> ... It is really a fascinating insight into human behavior and corporate and individual change.  If anyone is looking for a good business school thesis this would be a great subject to study  ...



They'll have to get in line behind that other Educated Consumer guy who seems to be using us as guinea pigs for the psych course he's teaching.  Or something like that, he hasn't said exactly.


----------



## RandR

wuv pooh said:


> Additionally Marriott has subsidized the entire system by charging less in fees than they + II presumably collected in total under the previous system.  Again, this is hard to verify but if you took the entire II membership costs + internal trades at $109 + lock off fees at $75 + points trade fees of $109 + reservation change fees of $29 then this is >= $165 or $199 per member.  My guess is that this is a true benefit to the new system.



The one fee rather than multiple little fees is definitely a benefit but let's not lose sight of the fact that at least one of those fees, the lock off, was excessive.  Did it really cost more and 2 minutes of a reps time to do this function yet it cost $75.


----------



## hotcoffee

WelcomeHome said:


> I'd still like to know if it's been verified that Marriott can and will legally do this?
> I just want a simple answer, or if this an issue that is still uncertain?
> 
> Thanks,
> David



What a Marriott rep told yesterday is that premier owners can reserve (exchange?) 12 months out, but the peons can only do 10 months.

Comments on this?


----------



## RedDogSD

Brenda said:


> The real plus for me is that I did buy all my Marriotts through Marriott, mostly pre-construction, which is also a big savings. It is now paying off that I only pay $695 to enroll 6 units and I am immediately premium plus, where I can reserve even 1 day at 13 months at any of the resorts. That is powerful.



Sounds like a great program for you.  However, 6 units directly from Marriott cost you what?  I am guessing you are in $200,000-$300,000 into Marriott and pay them $6000-$10,000/year in Maint Fees.  Now that you are just using your points like most people use cash, the return on investment is gone.  

However, what you paid is long gone.  If I owned 6 developer weeks, you better believe I would join the program.


----------



## DanCali

hotcoffee said:


> What a Marriott rep told yesterday is that premier owners can reserve (exchange?) 12 months out, but the peons can only do 10 months.
> 
> Comments on this?



We know the documents read differently. It's the documents that count.


----------



## DanCali

WelcomeHome said:


> I'd still like to know if it's been verified that Marriott can and will legally do this?
> I just want a simple answer, or if this an issue that is still uncertain?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> David



Under the old rules marriott committed to:

1) Give owners a week in their season
2) Not to make more than 50% of inventory available at 13 months

As long as they do this, they probably think that's cool.

I say if your summer-fall season effectively turns into a fall season, you have a legitimate gripe. Does it turn into a class action? I am not a lawyer...


----------



## ArtsieAng

WelcomeHome said:


> I'd still like to know if it's been verified that Marriott can and will legally do this?
> I just want a simple answer, or if this an issue that is still uncertain?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> David




The new program does not offer home resort priority.

Premier/PremierPlus owners are entitled to reserve at any resort, 13 months out.


----------



## puckmanfl

good afternoon,....

Brenda:

where did you find these "combo packages"  ????

please advise


----------



## jerseyfinn

*Too much . . . too fast*

WOW !    

I only come in the TUG door occassionally to check on things, so imagine my surprise when I find this thread. I go to MVCI and try to read through the stuff they show me about what my weeks points are worth etc. and I'm still confused by the relative lack of clarity by Marriott about this whole thing. Yeah, there's a lot of chatter and info here, but I've tried to sit down on the MVCI site and figure this stuff out, but as Ringo sang, "It Don't Come Easy."   We're heading to Spain soon and I'm really not in the mood to have to start thinking deeply about things timeshare -- I simply want to sit my butt down with a sangria in hand.

I am a bit surprised that Marriott does not give owners an e-mail or still better, a timely mailing which lays out in clear detail just what this new program means ( Marriott knows that many of their owners are thoughtful and sophisticated folks who consider carefully their ownership paradigm ). Kinda feel to me like Marriott borrows a trick from that Congress which pops that health care bill out of a dark corner and into instant reality. 

What I definitely don't like is the not-so-subtle nudge   that Marriott gives us as they try to imply that these enrollment prices are not gonna be around for a long time.  Give me a break. Name your price and go away, but spare me the sales talk stuff -- I bought your weeks, now give me clear concise info and allow me to figure out on my own time line what I am or am not gonna do.

This dank economy has most definitely stopped the MVCI Love Boat -- not quite dead in the water, but it ain't the good ship Lollipop anymore. I'd suggest resisting any urge one way or the other about this program and instead sit down to play some  "what if" a few scores of times until the new nomenclature sinks in and folks begin to grasp the larger picture of how this works for or against owners. 

I'd like to think that Marriott is credible and has some good thoughts here, but given this wobbly economy, the slim-shady clouds swirling around the real estate market of which TS is a part of, I'm simply not in the mood at the moment to ponder much of anything right now.  The only timeshare thoughts I'm entertaining is next year's usage and trips as this year was set months ago. Now it looks like I gotta put that sangria down and think about this new stuff with Marriott -- I don't like being rushed.  I hope that Marriott realizes that they need to go slow here as we owners have it just as tough as MVCI does at the moment and timeshare calculus ain't at the top of my list.

Barry


----------



## Brenda

RedDogSD said:


> Sounds like a great program for you.  However, 6 units directly from Marriott cost you what?  I am guessing you are in $200,000-$300,000 into Marriott and pay them $6000-$10,000/year in Maint Fees.  Now that you are just using your points like most people use cash, the return on investment is gone.
> 
> However, what you paid is long gone.  If I owned 6 developer weeks, you better believe I would join the program.



No, I did not pay $200K-$300K for my 6 units. Some are EOY units and  pre construction from 1997 when I paid less than $18,000 for my first (Kauai Beach Club OF). I paid between $3,000 and $21,000 for my units. The $3,000 is a Marriott resale at Vail. The avg is $14,000. My total is less than $100k. My M/F are around $5,600 a year. I can travel wherever and whenever I want. I look at it as though I bought a second home everywhere without the hassles of responsibilities. Where can I have a second home for under $100K and less than $6K annual upkeep. 

The point system opens lots of options that you can enjoy if you only open your mind to it. See the packages I referenced. Even with only 3,000 pts, you can enjoy multiple resorts in HI, CA, CO ski instead of just going to your same home resort.


----------



## hipslo

*Question about MRP for Resale Owners who Convert*

As I understand it, if I convert a resale week, and the resort would have permitted the week to be traded for MRP had it been a direct developer purchase, I will become eligible to trade in my week for MRP.  

My question is, how many MRP?  Will I be subject to the 32 for 1 conversion ratio on points, and the number of points I can trade in each year is depending on whether I am regular owner,premiere or premiere plus?  Or, will I be able to trade in based on how many MRP the week would have given me as a direct developer purchaser, prior to enrolling?  Does the answer depend, in any given year, whether I have first converted my week to destination club points, or is the answer the same whether I have converted to destination club points in any given year or not?

Does anyone know?  I have read a bunch of conflicting things about this.

Also, does anyone know how many MRP a platinum mountainside week currently gets?  How about a gold fairway villas week?  Is it the same for all developer purchasers, or does it depend on when the purchase was made?


----------



## Brenda

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon,....
> 
> Brenda:
> 
> where did you find these "combo packages"  ????
> 
> please advise



Actually, my Marriott salesperson sent it to me in an email. I check the points and they are correct. It is a great marketing for points usage.


----------



## MauiLover

*What I will tell the salesperson*

We own two weeks in Maui resale.  I may join the program even though I doubt I will ever trade for points.  I would do this just for the ability to get my resale weeks "equivalent" to developer, and also for future flexibility should I ever need it or in case weeks inventory dries up.  

However, I will not ever be buying any points.  I am staying at Canyon Villas next month for a "staycation" (we live in phx), and this is what I am going to say to the salesperson when we go for a presentation:

If we bought points for this staycation it would cost 1,225 points.  That would cost $11,515 at $9.40 per point.  We would then have annual maintenance fees of $490 at $0.40 per point.  Over twenty years we would have total costs of $21,315 ($11,515 + ($490 * 20)).  20 years X 7 nights equals 140 total nights.  $21,315 / 140 = $152 per night.  This is assuming that MFs and points required never go up (yeah, right).  I booked the week I am staying here on II Getaway for $57 per night.  How are points a good deal?


----------



## edge4414

SueDonJ said:


> Oh geeze, now you've outed me.  I was just at the point where I thought I'd better start wringing my hands, gnashing my teeth and keening to the timeshare gods - "aaaiiieee!!!  there goes my resale value!!!" - to protect my cover, too.  Now everybody knows that I'm actually a SuperSpyUndercover Marriott Agent sent to infiltrate TUG to try to combat the incessant anti-developer sentiment found here.  Don't suppose I can convince you to keep a lid on things, huh?
> 
> Look.  This argument is getting stupid.  I don't have any reason other than it's the truth to say that I have had good experiences with one Marriott sales rep who has never misrepresented the product to me.  She is my only frame of reference because she is the only sales rep I've ever dealt with.  My ownership has worked as she led me to expect it would, exactly as it's supported by the contracts.  And that's what I consider important.
> 
> Some other people have obviously had different experiences and expectations - I don't expect them to agree with me.  But I also don't expect to be accused of ulterior motives or lying or being stupid or having something wrong with me.  (All of which have been said at one time or another here about the few on TUG who are happy, satisfied developer-direct Marriott customers.)  Why is that so difficult for some to resist?  What possible difference does it make if I believe that Marriott has not treated me badly as a customer?  *How does it bolster your argument to insist that I recognize some phantom non-contractual moral responsibility that you think Marriott owes to MVCI owners?*


*
*
Why are you always so sure  it is a "phantom non contractual moral responsibility" You don't know that and you don't have one single argument above except ranting about what others have called you. I'm truly glad you have had a good experience ( I mean it) and no one is saying all Marriott personnel distort the truth or outright lie but the preponderance of comments suggest that promises have been made concerning owner rights (voting etc). Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. That is not meant to be condescending just a frustration of your unwillingness to recognize the vast majority of user experiences or you just dismiss them because your rep is fantastic. Your Rep does not make policy and you cannot count on her to defend your rights. Your examples above where you isolate (1) or (2) instances the policies might work for you while ignoring the circumstances of so many is why I singled you out. 
Marriott taking over the votes mean they now have complete control of our boards and therefore our pocketbooks and we will be defenseless to stop the onslaught. So answer this please. Were you told by your rep in one form or another that the once the development was finished Marriott would turn over all voting rights to the owners and they would just service the development? I have not met a single owner whose purchase rights were not described in this manner.


----------



## DanCali

RandR said:


> The one fee rather than multiple little fees is definitely a benefit but let's not lose sight of the fact that at least one of those fees, the lock off, was excessive.  Did it really cost more and 2 minutes of a reps time to do this function yet it cost $75.



No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.

Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to. 

Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):

MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")


MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225

Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225

Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")

To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.

For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.


----------



## sparty

How about all the Marriott sales folks who said resale buyers would be locked out of the new program and you should buy ASAP directly from marriott before the program goes into place?

Also - isn't there a history of skimming with MRP - I only got 100K pts but it required 125K PTS for the same resort/week/size.. Fair comparison to vacation points?


----------



## hotcoffee

DanCali said:


> We know the documents read differently. It's the documents that count.



I was able to verify with a different Marriott rep that the first one (actually, 2nd one) I talked to yesterday was giving me misinformation about the 10 month reservations.  This one confirmed what is being posted here.  It is 13 months for premier members and 12 for everyone else.

I've also posed the question about available inventory should participation be less than expected.  They insist that they will have enough inventory regardless of how well it is received.   Hmmmm.  Okay.  Maybe so.


----------



## SueDonJ

edge4414 said:


> [/B]
> Why are you always so sure  it is a "phantom non contractual moral responsibility" You don't know that and you don't have one single argument above except ranting about what others have called you. I'm truly glad you have had a good experience ( I mean it) and no one is saying all Marriott personnel distort the truth or outright lie but the preponderance of comments suggest that promises have been made concerning owner rights (voting etc). Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. That is not meant to be condescending just a frustration of your unwillingness to recognize the vast majority of user experiences or you just dismiss them because your rep is fantastic. Your Rep does not make policy and you cannot count on her to defend your rights. Your examples above where you isolate (1) or (2) instances the policies might work for you while ignoring the circumstances of so many is why I singled you out.
> Marriott taking over the votes mean they now have complete control of our boards and therefore our pocketbooks and we will be defenseless to stop the onslaught. So answer this please. Were you told by your rep in one form or another that the once the development was finished Marriott would turn over all voting rights to the owners and they would just service the development? I have not met a single owner whose purchase rights were not described in this manner.



Maybe you think Marriott is obligated to a "phantom non-contractual moral responsibility."  I can't find any such things in my governing docs so I don't believe it exists.

No, I wasn't told any such thing about voting rights by my sales rep because I didn't ask her the question!  I don't understand why anybody expects the sales reps to know the answers to half the questions that get asked!  We went in there with a Timeshare Resales magazine and armed with info from reading TUG.  I knew that for the most part the sales reps don't have complete, in-depth knowledge of how the product they're selling actually works, and she knew that we weren't pushovers.  (Over the years I've learned that she has more knowledge than we gave her credit for, because she's also an owner, but that's neither here nor there.)  Is that why my experience is so much different than most on TUG?  Maybe.  But I think it's more that some TUGgers expect too much - they expect Marriott to be this great benevolent being who will hold their hand and guide them through every step of timeshare ownership so that they can get the absolute MOST out of their purchase, while at the same time Marriott will have a hands-off approach for any material issue affecting the resorts with their name on them.  That's not how it works.  It's a contractual relationship that gives each party obligations and benefits.

Marriott's responsibility to owners is to make the governing docs available for review during a rescission period.  They do that.  A buyer's responsibility is to make sure that they know what they're buying, whether it's by reading the docs furnished by Marriott with a direct purchase or by the seller with an external resale purchase.  I'd guess that every external resale Contract for Purchase includes a stipulation that the underlying governing docs of the interval transfer with the sale.  It doesn't make any sense to me that anybody would sign such a contract without making sure that they've gotten or can get their hands on those docs.  But apparently a great many do.


----------



## Dean

MikeZ said:


> Steveg11,
> 
> Good question.  Here's a clean example.
> 
> Let's say, I want to go to Ko Olina, and an owner from Ko Olina wants to come to Waiohai.  We both have OV, and like-for-like should get us OV.  Here are the numbers:
> 
> I get 5075 for my Waiohai week, but have to pay 5725-6025 for most Ko Olina weeks
> 
> He/she gets 4975 points for the Ko Olina week (that I have to pay 5725-6025 to reserve) and has to pay 5875-6175 for most Waiohai weeks (which I received 5075 for)
> 
> Between those two, there could be almost 2000 points lost for owners in a transaction that used to be equal.
> 
> Now, there are some low season weeks that will not require as many points, but even in those cases, the person trading to Waiohai is short points, and I am relegated to get weeks I don't want to use without finding points elsewhere.


You could reserve and use, rent, exchange privately, exchange through II or exchange through an independent; all without any loss whatsoever.



hipslo said:


> This is specifically stated to be subject to change.  Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners.  The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.
> 
> Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.


To me that's a good thing.  Truth is they could take it away, create additional levels or scrap the entire program at some point if they wanted.



RandR said:


> Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners?  I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program.  What do I gain?  From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP.  But, I don't care about that at all.  My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them.  Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.
> 
> So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before.  But hey at least I can trade for MRP.


It may not be a good deal for you.  Here's my situation.  I own 9 weeks, only one of which is retail and only 3 of which (2 bought none Marriott) is currently eligible for MR points, not that points are a big deal to us, it's just options.  My total cost for the weeks is somewhere around $90K.  Had I bought retail at around the same time, my total cost would have been somewhere in the $250K range.  IF I decide to participate I'd rather have the $90K plus $1495 than the $250K even for free.  It doesn't seem to me that those with a single week are going to be in a good situation for converting unless they have a week that gets them very high points that they plan to trade mostly.  Even then, it likely only makes sense if view type and top end choices are what's most important.  Still, renting out and renting from another owner might be best for many situations.



tombo said:


> You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.


Nature of the beast I'm afraid.  If one can't separate out the verbal from the written and the sales from the usage, I think it is unreasonable to participate at all.  In addition, using words like right and fair is very shaky with timeshares, to me, all they really have to do is give me the written info and be within the laws involved.  The rest is more emotional than anything else and that makes it VERY subjective.

As a couple noted a page or 2 ago, there has always been an inequality of trading with some winning and some losing.  I'm been a winner and I do like that but it isn't written that it has to stay that way.  Trading a studio (even Maui) to a 3 BR (even GV) has never been a reasonable option in my book other than short notice when it might otherwise got to waste.



GregT said:


> It's the single week owner who now has to buy 1,000 points and pay $400 in new points MFs (in addition to $165) that I really feel for, all because they were skimmed on what their unit was worth.


But that's just it, no one has to do this.  Not to do what they did before and not to trade.  The only way they might want to do this is if they wanted other options that the system offers, their choice.  



jerseygirl said:


> Can you please point to another (comparable) system that has breakage?  I own at Starwood, Hyatt and Hilton and none have breakage.  Thanks.


DVC does.  EVERY unit not reserved at 2 months out is theirs.  If it's rented, the proceeds minus rental commissions are applied to maint fees up to 2.5% of the budget, after that, it's profit for Disney.



ArtsieAng said:


> How about it being more difficult to get a decent week at your home resort? Does that not count as being harmed, because to me, that's huge! I can't see how this new system will not impact reserving your week at your home resort unless you are a premier/premier plus owner.
> 
> Do you believe it will have no impact on reserving at your home resort?
> 
> edited to add: So, I may not be able to get any decent trades, because Marriott may raid weeks in the system, and I most likely won't be able to reserve a decent week to use at my home resort......How much worse can it get?
> 
> Marriott = The Grinch That Stole Christmas! LOL


Marriott controls the reservation system.  Given that those reserving weeks are only competing with others reserving weeks, it's really not an issue.  The only issue is if you're trading by trying to use points to reserve other resorts, other times, additional units, etc.  This is first and foremost an exchange program and not a primary usage system.  The one's who are going to be at a disadvantage are those that only own points.



hotcoffee said:


> What a Marriott rep told yesterday is that premier owners can reserve (exchange?) 12 months out, but the peons can only do 10 months.
> 
> Comments on this?


My understanding is that Premier Plus owners can reserve any number of nights at 13 months out but for less than 7 nights EVERYONE else is 10 months out.


----------



## JMAESD84

*Never owned Marriott*

An impartial opinion regarding this new system.

The new system will significantly reduce the external resale value and effective yield to any current owner wishing to leave the Marriott "family". 

Lower priced external sales will be harvested for much of the inventory needs through ROFR.  Internal approved broker sales will become a larger profit center.  In either case, exiting owner will yield much less.

The "family" of converts will see steady and painful escalation of costs.  Why not you've been captured.

Marriott will have greater sway with all HOA decisions and fees with the added voting rights obtained.

Points systems are a lot of fun and very flexible.  Having a huge number of points is a nice advantage.  Enjoy it if you choose to join, but expect to pay more to play and to receive far less when you decide to walk away.


----------



## SueDonJ

edge4414 said:


> ... Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. ...



This is the least beneficial thing that should be said while we are ALL trying to figure this out together here on TUG.  None of us should be made to feel like our choice to enroll or not in Points should be based upon anything other than whether or not it enhances our individual ownerships.  For some people it comes down simply to how we use our timeshares, for some the way we feel Marriott is treating us is as important, for some it's a combination.  No one person's choice is the right or wrong one.


----------



## edge4414

SueDonJ said:


> Maybe you think Marriott is obligated to a "phantom non-contractual moral responsibility."  I can't find any such things in my governing docs so I don't believe it exists.
> 
> No, I wasn't told any such thing about voting rights by my sales rep because I didn't ask her the question!  I don't understand why anybody expects the sales reps to know the answers to half the questions that get asked!  We went in there with a Timeshare Resales magazine and armed with info from reading TUG.  I knew that for the most part the sales reps don't have complete, in-depth knowledge of how the product they're selling actually works, and she knew that we weren't pushovers.  (Over the years I've learned that she has more knowledge than we gave her credit for, because she's also an owner, but that's neither here nor there.)  Is that why my experience is so much different than most on TUG?  Maybe.  But I think it's more that some TUGgers expect too much - they expect Marriott to be this great benevolent being who will hold their hand and guide them through every step of timeshare ownership so that they can get the absolute MOST out of their purchase.  That's not how it works.  It's a contractual relationship that gives each party obligations and benefits.
> 
> Marriott's responsibility to owners is to make the governing docs available for review during a rescission period.  They do that.  A buyer's responsibility is to make sure that they know what they're buying, whether it's by reading the docs furnished by Marriott with a direct purchase or by the seller with an external resale purchase.  I'd guess that every external resale Contract for Purchase includes a stipulation that the underlying governing docs of the interval transfer with the sale.  It doesn't make any sense to me that anybody would sign such a contract without making sure that they've gotten or can get their hands on those docs.  But apparently a great many do.


Sue 

I don't want to go back and forth so I will quit here but I believe our Docs cover voting rights and if not stated "implied" that the owners would own and therefore vote 100%. Again I hate to repeat but verbal promises/contracts and implied warranties have been proven valid in court over and over. Why do you ignore this? I am not a lawyer and don't know if Marriott has this covered another way but it certainly can't be outright dismissed as folly as you try to do. Furthermore, Marriott's normal operating procedure in their Hotel business is a similar format and could probably be used to show the  original "implied" intent. I don't know the exact number but approx. 95% of Marriott hotels are not owned by Marriott but are owned outright by a private business in contract with Marriott to utilize their name and Hotel management resources. Obviously there is a contract with T&C's that have to be followed, but clearly the argument is much stronger that Marriott is a hotel and timeshare management company first and sometimes owner.


----------



## CA Richard

*Another Happy Camper!*



Brenda said:


> I enrolled all my weeks and the more I see the flexibility. The more I love it.
> I may be one of the few on the board that think the points program is plus for owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brenda, I'm glad to see someone else thinks this is great!  I will be enrolling all my weeks (5, mixed developer and resale) shortly as well.  My wife is thrilled!  This suddenly makes it feel like we own the entire system instead of just our home resorts and she is already looking more seriously at other resorts we can book now without having to request a trade and waiting 8 months to find out if it is going to go through.  Sometimes we got what we wanted, but so many times it was just not worth the trouble.
> 
> Trading with II was always a pain.  And we, like you Brenda, were frequently checking out of a week reservation a day or two early for various reasons, sometimes just to have a day or two at home before going back to work.  Now we can book exactly the number of days we want in the type of unit we want.
> 
> We have a 2BR EOY in Ko Olina, which we usually locked off and spent a week in the lockoff and a week in the 1BR.  The lockoff was a mediocre experience at best for a week and we hated having to move in the middle of the vacation.  We are already thinking forward to trying to get a 1 BR for the entire trip next year with the points system, maybe for 12 days if that's exactly what we need.
> 
> Perhaps a 5-night Sun-Thurs stay at a new resort we haven't tried before would make another good trip, and at a bargain number of points!  Other times I'm sure we will just stay at one of our home resorts for a week without trading for points.
> 
> I know TUG is made up of a lot of people who have made a great effort to get as much as they can for as little as they have to spend.  My frugal side applauds them.  I understand that this sharing and maximizing benefits is, in fact, one of the primary purposes of this board.  Those willing to put in the time playing the games with II, trades, AC's, etc., could reap some great rewards.  That appears to me to be at the heart of the negative reaction on TUG.
> 
> But sometimes we forget that this is supposed to be vacation and enjoyment, and for some of us, the flexibility associated with getting exactly what we want when we want it has a great deal of value as well, even if there is a little additional monetary cost or points associated with that.  As some others have said, TUG members are not necessarily representative of the majority of Marriott owners. I, for one applaud the direction they have taken.
> 
> Certainly there are lost opprtunities to "trade up" and "get something for nothing" in the new system vs the old.  That's a tough pill to swallow when so much attention and effort has been placed on doing just that on this board.  (Of course, as others have said, there is always a loser somewhere in the system for every winner.)  I have to believe there will still be plenty of opportunities to maximize one's usage in the new program as well. Once people get beyond focusing on what they have lost, I believe we'll all be on here trying to figure out how to get the most out of the new system!
Click to expand...


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## bobpark56

If I were to join today ($595) and pay the annual fee ($165), to what period would this fee apply? I.e., when would I have to pay next year's fee?

Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?


----------



## jerseygirl

Dean said:


> DVC does.  EVERY unit not reserved at 2 months out is theirs.  If it's rented, the proceeds minus rental commissions are applied to maint fees up to 2.5% of the budget, after that, it's profit for Disney.



Dean -- thanks for responding but I think we're talking apples and oranges.  Just about every state timeshare statute permits developers/managers to rent unreserved inventory at the 60-day mark -- they all do it.  That's not the same as giving the owners 4500 (average) to trade out, and charging other club members 5000 (average) to trade in (the "skim" or "breakage").  As an owner, I'm 100% sure that Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood don't do it (i.e., points out = points in).  I don't think Disney does it ... but since I'm not an owner, I can't be sure.


----------



## SueDonJ

edge4414 said:


> Sue
> 
> I don't want to go back and forth so I will quit here but I believe our Docs cover voting rights and if not stated "implied" that the owners would own and therefore vote 100%. Again I hate to repeat but verbal promises/contracts and implied warranties have been proven valid in court over and over. Why do you ignore this? I am not a lawyer and don't know if Marriott has this covered another way but it certainly can't be outright dismissed as folly as you try to do. Furthermore, Marriott's normal operating procedure in their Hotel business is a similar format and could probably be used to show the  original "implied" intent. I don't know the exact number but approx. 95% of Marriott hotels are not owned by Marriott but are owned outright by a private business in contract with Marriott to utilize their name and Hotel management resources. Obviously there is a contract with T&C's that have to be followed, but clearly the argument is much stronger that Marriott is a hotel and timeshare management company first and sometimes owner.



I also don't want to continue this but I'm going to, just to say that if you believe that the governing docs give owners 100% of the rights to control the resorts through voting, you either haven't read the docs or you don't understand them.  I'm not a lawyer either but that is made so clear in the docs that it doesn't take a lawyer to understand it.

Others, some who are lawyers, have posted here why your belief that "implied" terms can be enforced is wrong as well.  I agree with them based on ten years of being a lowly secretary in a law office, but I appreciate that they've contributed their expertise to the thread.

It really is helpful to have the docs no matter what you think of Marriott.  And every owner can get them by calling Owner Services to ask for the "Public Offering Statement" for the resort(s) owned.  (If they don't know what you're talking about, ask for a copy of the Timeshare Declaration, Master Deed and Management Agreement or similar documents given to every new owner.)  There may be a minimal fee, especially for weeks purchased on the external resale market, but it's well worth the investment.

And now you can get the last word and bash me one more time for looking at Marriott timeshares so unemotionally if that's what you want.  I'm done again.

(Geeze, now I can't talk about breakage or contracts.  Pretty soon I'm going to stop myself from talking about anything or to anyone on TUG.  It's a good thing Don's away and doesn't have to listen to me, but I sure feel bad for the dawg.)


----------



## SueDonJ

bobpark56 said:


> If I were to join today ($595) and pay the annual fee ($165), to what period would this fee apply? I.e., when would I have to pay next year's fee?
> 
> Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?



It doesn't matter if you join now or anytime before the end of this enrollment period, 12/31/10.  The annual Club Dues will cover you through 12/31/11.

Remember, 12/31/10 isn't the deadline for enrolling all existing deeded weeks.  After 12/31/10, though, the fees may increase.


----------



## Dean

jerseygirl said:


> Dean -- thanks for responding but I think we're talking apples and oranges.  Just about every state timeshare statute permits developers/managers to rent unreserved inventory at the 60-day mark -- they all do it.  That's not the same as giving the owners 4500 (average) to trade out, and charging other club members 5000 (average) to trade in (the "skim" or "breakage").  As an owner, I'm 100% sure that Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood don't do it (i.e., points out = points in).  I don't think Disney does it ... but since I'm not an owner, I can't be sure.


DVC has the right to anticipate breakage inventory out to the 11 month reservation window.  I'm not convinced that there will be any windfall to Marriott with the new system though I know some are.


----------



## DanCali

CA Richard said:


> Brenda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know TUG is made up of a lot of people who have made a great effort to get as much as they can for as little as they have to spend.  My frugal side applauds them.  I understand that this sharing and maximizing benefits is, in fact, one of the primary purposes of this board.  Those willing to put in the time playing the games with II, trades, AC's, etc., could reap some great rewards.  That appears to me to be at the heart of the negative reaction on TUG.
> 
> But sometimes we forget that this is supposed to be vacation and enjoyment, and for some of us, the flexibility associated with getting exactly what we want when we want it has a great deal of value as well, even if there is a little additional monetary cost or points associated with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you wanted the flexibility of points, why did you buy Marriott? Why not Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, or a combinationof these?
> 
> 400,000+ owners bought into Marriott with the understanding it was a weeks system. Most were very happy, despite the limitations of II. I can tell you that I was a Starwood owner before I was a Marriott owner. I bought into a weeks system that people were happy with and raved about it. Starwood, on the other hand, is notorious for its anti owner policies. As someone quite familiar with both systems, I can categorically say that terms offered to Marriott in the points program are by far more Draconian than many of the things Starwood did to owners.
> 
> I thought diversifying to Marriott was a good idea... I'm actually happy now that I also own Starwood and if I dump any of my weeks, the Marriott ones will be the first to go.
Click to expand...


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## Bunk

Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work.  The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts.

I submit the apologists miss the point.  The new system is worse than the system that we were induced to purchase in several ways, including the following:

1.	We were told we would be able to do exchanges of similar units throughout the Marriott system, subject to availability.  By skimming the points and messing around with the availability of the units, Marriott has interfered with our ability to make those types of exchanges.
2.	We were told that one reason we should buy a Marriott timeshare was that the ability to obtain Marriott reward points was a valuable asset.  At the time I purchased, it was very valuable.  I can bank 105,000 rewards points for my unit.  When I bought, that amount of points was enough to rent my timeshare for a week.  Several years ago, in a precursor to this latest skim, Marriott inflated the points it would charge for my unit by 50%, yet continued to give me the same amount of points.  In sum, it devalued my rewards points by 50%.  So the value of my rewards was reduced from a week at a timeshare to 5 days at a Courtyard!  
3.	We were told that there was real value in buying from Marriott as opposed to buying at resale.  The new system shows that representation was as hollow as the others.

I’ve had several conversations with Marriott’s representatives about this new system.  They acknowledge to me that the dream of timeshare ownership that induced many of us to buy Marriott timeshares is much better than the reality of the new system.  One representative candidly told me that he thought that Marriott’s devaluation of the rewards points was even worse than the new system it just designed.

Those representatives, who included supervisors and point specialists, have also acknowledged to me that Marriott could have devised a new system that charged us a premium when we wanted flexibility, such as reserving less than a week, without having to universally skim points from us on week to week exchanges.  So even the Marriott representatives on the phone are unable to give a legitimate explanation for the skim, other than that Marriott has the legal right to do it.

Whether or not you agree that Marriott’s conduct in skimming points amounts to theft, I think we should all be able to agree that Marriott has presented itself to the public and to us as an honest and ethical company, and that one of the reasons that many of us spent so much money buying Marriott timeshares is because we believed that we were dealing with an honest and ethical company.  The important issue is whether Marriott is treating us in a fair and ethical way.  The anger and hurt that many of us are expressing are based on our disappointment when we finally realized that Marriott is acting no better than its competitors, and in a lot of ways, is acting worse.  As a result, the argument that Marriott is not technically acting in a criminal way and is not technically committing theft is irrelevant; the company has been harmed immensely when the strongest argument its supporters can come up with is that it has technically not committed theft or that we were naive because we believe its sales staff was telling the truth.

Marriott’s treatment of the legacy owners may turn out to be extremely shortsighted.  It has created an unwieldy system that will be hard to sell on economic grounds, and will be even harder to sell when the legacy owners tell the new owners how they’ve been treated.  Why would any one invest significant money in the new system once that person learns that the rules can and will change whenever it is in Marriott’s interest to do so?  I also think it will be difficult for Marriott to retain some of its prior sales force who are being called upon to ignore the fact that what they told the legacy owners for 20 years turned out to be pie in the sky.


----------



## tombo

Y-ASK said:


> Boy are you hung up on this.  Yes we know you don't like the system.  I respect your opinion and right to say so (maybe not over and over ), but come on, calling Marriott "theives", "con men", etc is way over the top.
> 
> If you have a $100 worth 10000 pennies and you open a checking account in a regular bank and do nothing for two years, I bet when you go to withdrawal that 10000 pennies you only have 8000-9000 left if you're lucky.  Would you call that bank a bunch of theives?
> 
> It's the price of doing business and no one said that you had to deposit that $100 bucks into that bank in the 1st place.  You could have deposited it in a Credit Union and not lost anything...
> 
> So please tone it down some.  Not all of us feel like we are getting ripped off...
> 
> Y-ASK



If my bank charged me secret hidden fees while proclaiming that all checking and other services were free, you can bet your house I would call them a crooked organization! My bank tells me what checking account fees there are if any up front, I don't have to search web sites to find out about their secret hidden fees. My bank tells me what the minimum savings account and checking account balances are that are needed to avoid any fees or charges up front without needing to have my attorney present to read the fine print. If they did not act in a professional manner regarding their services and fees I would not do business with them. If your bank or credit union hides fees and charges from you I suggest that you change financial institutions because there are plenty of honest above board banks and credit unions out there. That is the type of organization I give my business and hard earned money to.

Let me exchange Marriott for a credit card company. If you got an e-mail or phone call announcing a new credit card wit no interest charges ever. If you called them and they said for $1495 you buy the new credit card and then you pay an annual fee of $165 per year and that's it. No interest charges no matter how many transactions you make up to the limit on the card they assigned you. Then after you sign up and read the fine print you find out that the credit card company charges you 7% to 13% every time you use your card. if you called them up and they said well we have to make money somehow so we have some hidden charges in place called brokerages, other credit card companies charge brokerages too, it is in the fine print by the way. Whether you actually purchased the card or not would you feel that they were a company you want to do business with when they HID THE FEES while claiming that the new card had no charges, only an annual fee? 

Marriott did this to everyone when they rolled out the program. Please search though Marriott's  FAQ's and find where they disclose to consumers that they skim, steal, or charge breakage points for profit or any other reason. Find in their disclosure where they explain that their "breakage "fees could case owners to not be able to trade like for like weeks or cause them to not get the full value of their week in points annually. Please look hard in the fine print and see how Marriott disclosed this fee, if at all.

Marriott said pay us $1495 plus $165 a year and you will never pay exchange fees or lock-off fees. In fact Marriott's hidden "breakage" costs for exchanging and locking off units is more expensive in most cases than exchanging and locking off through II. That is deceptive minimum, fraudulent possibly, and either way they have sunk to a very low level promising no fees while actually charging more than II without disclosing those expenses.


----------



## Werner Weiss

bobpark56 said:


> Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?



The other possible reason to enroll sooner rather than later is the bonus offer:

"For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!"​
We don't know the "limited time" is.


----------



## Numismatist

Werner Weiss said:


> The other possible reason to enroll sooner rather than later is the bonus offer:
> 
> "For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!"​
> We don't know the "limited time" is.



Only problem for me is that I planned on going to my home resort 2011, so I can't use those nice 800 points before they expire...


----------



## steveg11

timtax said:


> Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.
> 
> Unless you book and deposit this year's week in II and trade for the week you want next year. Then you can add the year 2 reservation in front or behind the week you traded for. It can be done.



So let me get this straight. I can still reserve and deposit my week with II. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can bank that week in my II account for a couple of years if I want. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can trade for the same number of Marriott Rewards points as I could before. Let's see that's.... And I can reserve the size and view that I own in the season that I own at my home resort. Let's see that's.... And I can do all of these as long as I am willing to stay for exactly seven days and can live with some uncertainty as to what I can get in exchange via II or if I can get anything at all. But if I spend $595 (or in my case $1495) then I can reduce the fees that I pay, make just one call to reserve anywhere, any size, any view, any length of vacation and know exactly what it will cost in points and know with certainty where and when I am going before I hang up the phone, and I can bank or borrow points in flexible amounts if I choose to do so in any given year, which I was never able to do before, and that amounts to skimming?
Ok, then. Skim me some more, please.


----------



## Werner Weiss

Numismatist said:


> Only problem for me is that I planned on going to my home resort 2011, so I can't use those nice 800 points before they expire...



As someone who lives on the "Coast of Maine," how about a few days in Boston at Marriott's Custom House? In the winter, you could get four weekday nights at 200 nights each. Or you could get a shorter stay at another time.


----------



## Numismatist

Werner Weiss said:


> As someone who lives on the "Coast of Maine," how about a few days in Boston at Marriott's Custom House? In the winter, you could get four weekday nights at 200 nights each. Or you could get a shorter stay at another time.



There you go!  My glass is half full now!:whoopie:


----------



## SueDonJ

Bunk said:


> Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work.  The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts. ...



Oh for the love of Pete ...

"Marriott apologists."  Really?  Is that what we're now calling the folks who understand what's been sold to them?  Who don't see a legal violation in the product now being offered?  Who might choose to enroll because the way it works might be better for them?  You think that we're apologizing for Marriott?  No, w'ere not.  We're just facing the reality that it doesn't matter how Marriott has made us feel, what matters is whether the good in the product outweighs the bad.

For years I've been reading post after post after post after post from everyone on TUG that says, "Salespeople lie.  If they're lips are moving, they're lying.  Rescind, they lied.  Sales weasels are the lowest of the low.  They lie."  For years I've been reading post after post after post that says, "Buy resale, you'll save money.  Thousands less.  Marriott isn't exercising ROFR, bid low.  Don't buy developer, you'll be spending thousands more and plus you'll be a sucker.  Buy resale, really, most folks don't know it but there are savings to be had on the resale market."

Now you expect me to believe that folks are surprised that Marriott sales reps sometimes don't get everything right, and that there is genuine surprise and outrage over the fact that Marriott didn't protect the resale values of all existing weeks with this rollout.  I'm sorry, I don't buy any of it.  Some used the sales staff's poor reputation when it suited their purpose, and some took advantage of the inherent devaluation in timeshare purchases when it suited their purpose.  They can't cry "Foul!" now and expect to be believed.


----------



## RandR

DanCali said:


> No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.
> 
> Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.
> 
> Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):
> 
> MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
> MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")
> 
> 
> MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
> MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225
> 
> Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
> Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
> Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225
> 
> Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")
> 
> To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.
> 
> For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.



Point well taken.  I was though just referring to the actual cash outlay that the person was talking about.


----------



## tombo

steveg11 said:


> So let me get this straight. I can still reserve and deposit my week with II. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can bank that week in my II account for a couple of years if I want. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can trade for the same number of Marriott Rewards points as I could before. Let's see that's.... And I can reserve the size and view that I own in the season that I own at my home resort. Let's see that's.... And I can do all of these as long as I am willing to stay for exactly seven days and can live with some uncertainty as to what I can get in exchange via II or if I can get anything at all. But if I spend $595 (or in my case $1495) then I can reduce the fees that I pay, make just one call to reserve anywhere, any size, any view, any length of vacation and know exactly what it will cost in points and know with certainty where and when I am going before I hang up the phone, and I can bank or borrow points in flexible amounts if I choose to do so in any given year, which I was never able to do before, and that amounts to skimming?
> Ok, then. Skim me some more, please.



If you want to do exactly as you could before, why convert to points? The skim only happens when you deposit your week to points. Of course if you convert to points and deposit your week, Marriott will imediatelly take points from you when you deposit. The cost of the points they skim will cost you more than the $109 II exchange fee, so not reduced fees, increased fees, but you don't mind, skim away. The points you are left with after marriott's skim won't get you a trade equal to what you deposited, but you love it and don't want to get resorts/weeks/seasons equal to what you deposited, so Marriott skim away. If you exchange for a lock-off 1 bed or studio, the combined total of the points charged for the studio and one bed room will be much higher than the total points needed to reserve the whole 2 bed room, so you got skimmed and charged hundreds of dollars more to lock-off (for specific details read dancali's post 1354), but as you said skim away. 

Marriott Destination and Marriott sales people have got to love customers who know that they are having points stolen from them every time they deposit and exchange but who buy anyway. Drink the Kool-aid all ye who believe. Ignore those falling down around you and those warning you that the Kool-aid is bad. Just blindly trust Marriott and drink the Kool-aid.........


----------



## steveg11

tombo said:


> I have a week worth 5000 points. I deposit it with Marriott. They give me fewer points than the value of what I gave them. They pocket the difference. Whether you want to call them con men, theives, or simply unethical businessmen, the end result is I don't get the full value of the ponts allocated to my week.
> 
> I purchased the week which Marriott determined to be worth 5000 points, I pay MF's on it, I pay $165 a year to be able to swap my week into points to do exchanges, I paid $1495 for the ability to use points, and after all of my financial outlay Marriott feels that they should have the right to skim 7% to 10% of the value of what I own and paid to use. Is it technically theft? No because if I give them my week I knew what I was getting for it, but it is still theft in my opinion because they leave you no choice other than to be locked out of the points program and possibly make what you own almost worthless.
> 
> Of course the reality of the points program will preclude myself and many others from joining. They will operate it whithout any contribution of weeks or infusion of cash from me, and I hope the points venture is a resounding bust. The more owners that know the true details, the fewer owners I believe will convert, and many of those who mistakenly convert will never deposit their week for points after they discover that marriott will give them less points for their deposit than it is worth. Time will tell.



I work for a company who buys my labor at a rate far below what I in my own wise opinion feel that it is worth. I decide how much my labor is worth because if it takes me one hour to make a widget and I make $10 per hour, then the widget should also sell for $10. The company is skimming my time if they actually collect $11 per hour for my work by charging $11 for that widget that I made. 
How dare they!
Right? Same logic as the "great Marriott skim conspiracy".


----------



## ArtsieAng

steveg11 said:


> So let me get this straight. I can still reserve and deposit my week with II. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can bank that week in my II account for a couple of years if I want. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before.
> 
> That's questionable at this point....Many here have been told that unless you pay for an additional II account, you must deposit your week into a Marriott corporate account, and you would not be able to do online searches in II.
> 
> And I can trade for the same number of Marriott Rewards points as I could before. Let's see that's....
> 
> 
> Yup, that's true
> 
> 
> And I can reserve the size and view that I own in the season that I own at my home resort. Let's see that's....
> 
> 
> Well, you can, but you might not be getting anything more than a shoulder week. No home resort priority, combined with the new 13 month rule for premier/pp owners, may eliminate all the high demand weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> And I can do all of these as long as I am willing to stay for exactly seven days and can live with some uncertainty as to what I can get in exchange via II or if I can get anything at all.
> 
> Personally, I've gotten most exchanges that I've ever requested from II, along with AC's for my deposits.
> 
> But if I spend $595 (or in my case $1495) then I can reduce the fees that I pay, make just one call to reserve anywhere, any size, any view, any length of vacation and know exactly what it will cost in points and know with certainty where and when I am going before I hang up the phone, and I can bank or borrow points in flexible amounts if I choose to do so in any given year, which I was never able to do before, and that amounts to skimming?
> Ok, then. Skim me some more, please.



I'm really hoping that you're a premier plus owner because I honestly believe that's what's its going to take for you to have any chance at your above scenario. Me, I'm not so lucky.....I would have been happy simply being able to exchange my alloted points for a like for like trade. But unfortunately, no can do, under this new system.


----------



## floyddl

ArtsieAng said:


> I'm really hoping that you're a premier plus owner because I honestly believe that's what's its going to take for you to have any chance at your above scenario. Me, I'm not so lucky.....I would have been happy simply being able to exchange my alloted points for a like for like trade. But unfortunately, no can do, under this new system.



The tough part for the ordinary point member is that if you want to trade your 7 day week for 6 days of points you have to wait until the 10 month window opens to reserve less than 7 days.  Of course you could deposit this year and next year's points to do it and forego 2 years at your home resort.  But alas, those nice guys at Marriott will help you by selling you more points.  So three issues for a one week owner like me:  1) limited to no inventory at prime locations/times available at 10 months, 2) who wants to give up their home resort for 2 years to reserve one week at 12 months, and 3) who wants to buy more points.  To have any chance at decent resorts/weeks I have to trade weeks or the price becomes prohibitive for me.


----------



## Michigan Czar

I am really concerned about my reservation ability at 12 months out. Even if they keep the 50% inventory available at 13 months and 50% at 12 months. Now at 12 months I will be competing with other Maui owners which was difficult enough but now I get the pleasure of also competing with every point owner that decides they want to go to Maui the same week that I do.

Is anyone else at all concerned about this? Or am I just not understanding the new program?


----------



## RandR

SueDonJ said:


> Now you expect me to believe that folks are surprised that Marriott sales reps sometimes don't get everything right



First I will acknowledge that not all salespeople lie.  I think it is great that you got a top notch person to work with who you trust.  But to say that they sometimes don't get everything right?   Come on!!

Go to a sales office, any sales office, and watch them walk people around showing them all the great places they can trade their timeshare for.  They take out the thick II book and say 'you can trade your ts into any of these places.'  Of course people are responsible for knowing what is in the contract but many people have a problem that can screw them up......trust.  When they spend 1 - 2 hours with someone who keeps telling them that they CAN trade to all these exciting places, They listen.  They assume that since they are sitting in a room with a salesperson from Marriott, a well respected company, that the person can't be completely lying since a well respected company like Marriott wouldn't let them.  Oops, their bad.  Sure Marriott would.

Many people inherrently trust others.  Many (not all) timeshare salespeople prey on this.  So sure it is ultimately the buyers responsibility to know what they are getting into but even you have to admit that Marriott holds some of the blame for letting some of their salespeople outright lie to people.


----------



## tombo

steveg11 said:


> I work for a company who buys my labor at a rate far below what I in my own wise opinion feel that it is worth. I decide how much my labor is worth because if it takes me one hour to make a widget and I make $10 per hour, then the widget should also sell for $10. The company is skimming my time if they actually collect $11 per hour for my work by charging $11 for that widget that I made.
> How dare they!
> Right? Same logic as the "great Marriott skim conspiracy".



The widget is a product you an employee make which your employer sells for a profit. Good business except they need to make more than $1 per widget if they plan on being profitable and surviving. The people buying the widget know they are paying $10 to buy it, no secret hidden fees or suprises. Once they buy the widget they own it and the manufacturer wont secretly take pieces of the widget from the customer every time the customer uses it making it not perform like the widget they purchased.

Marriott to make a profit sells weeks at resorts they built or bought. The salesmen sell the weeks for $25,000 or more and Marriott pays them a percentage of the sale while keeping the rest for profit after expenses. Good business. 

Marriott sales falter so they decide to now make money selling points to customers who previously purchased weeks from Marriott (and new customers too). These are people Marriott and Marriott sales people already got paid a profit on when they originally sold the Marriott product. In spite of that Marriott is now selling them a modification to be added to their original product. The custome pays $%99 to $1999 to modify their product they own, they pay $165 a year to use the modification, and they pay annual MF's to keep the product functioning well and in good repair. Now Marriott secretly takes part of the modification they sold the customer to use for marriott's own purposes even though they sold the customer the whole modification. By skimming part of the modfication they are limiting the ability of the modification to do what the customer purchased it to do (get them trades worth the same number of points their week is worth). So the profit of the original sale wasn't good enough for Marriott, the sale of the modification isn't enough for marriott, the annual fee to use the modification isn't enough, Marriott must steal part of the modification they sold their customer each time the customer uses their new modification. What will marriott want next, a higher percent skim of the modification they sold the customers, higher annual fees, both?

The widget, your salary, and the skimming of points are apples and oranges.


----------



## RandR

Michigan Czar said:


> I am really concerned about my reservation ability at 12 months out. Even if they keep the 50% inventory available at 13 months and 50% at 12 months. Now at 12 months I will be competing with other Maui owners which was difficult enough but now I get the pleasure of also competing with every point owner that decides they want to go to Maui the same week that I do.
> 
> Is anyone else at all concerned about this? Or am I just not understanding the new program?



You understand correctly.  But at least as on owner in Hawaii, which costs more points, you have some buffer.  Us lowly Orlando people can have a ridiculous amount of new people to compete with.


----------



## floyddl

Michigan Czar said:


> I am really concerned about my reservation ability at 12 months out. Even if they keep the 50% inventory available at 13 months and 50% at 12 months. Now at 12 months I will be competing with other Maui owners which was difficult enough but now I get the pleasure of also competing with every point owner that decides they want to go to Maui the same week that I do.
> 
> Is anyone else at all concerned about this? Or am I just not understanding the new program?



That is a valid concern.  Unless you own a fixed week where you are guaranteed your week the competition could be intense for the popular floating weeks.


----------



## pacheco18

tombo said:


> Marriott sales falter so they decide to now make money selling points to customers who previously purchased weeks from Marriott (and new customers too). These are people Marriott and Marriott sales people already got paid a profit on when they originally sold the Marriott product.
> The widget, your salary, and the skimming of points are apples and oranges.



You hit the nail on the head.  Those of us who bought from developer already helped Marriott make a boatload.  We bought into the Rewards Points system and knowingly paid thousands more for a unit that we knew sold for much less resale.  We referred others to Marriott and they bought from developer as well.

They are screwing their most loyal customers with this program.


----------



## Michigan Czar

RandR said:


> You understand correctly.  But at least as on owner in Hawaii, which costs more points, you have some buffer.  Us lowly Orlando people can have a ridiculous amount of new people to compete with.



Yeah this sucks as I bought where I want to vacation. I wonder how many units they have to reserve at Maui and if Marriott would allow all of them to be reserved for one specific week (I know an unlikely scenario). I will know the impact or hopefully not next year whenb I look to reserve the following year.


----------



## edge4414

SueDonJ said:


> I also don't want to continue this but I'm going to, just to say that if you believe that the governing docs give owners 100% of the rights to control the resorts through voting, you either haven't read the docs or you don't understand them.  I'm not a lawyer either but that is made so clear in the docs that it doesn't take a lawyer to understand it.
> 
> Others, some who are lawyers, have posted here why your belief that "implied" terms can be enforced is wrong as well.  I agree with them based on ten years of being a lowly secretary in a law office, but I appreciate that they've contributed their expertise to the thread.
> 
> It really is helpful to have the docs no matter what you think of Marriott.  And every owner can get them by calling Owner Services to ask for the "Public Offering Statement" for the resort(s) owned.  (If they don't know what you're talking about, ask for a copy of the Timeshare Declaration, Master Deed and Management Agreement or similar documents given to every new owner.)  There may be a minimal fee, especially for weeks purchased on the external resale market, but it's well worth the investment.
> 
> And now you can get the last word and bash me one more time for looking at Marriott timeshares so unemotionally if that's what you want.  I'm done again.
> 
> (Geeze, now I can't talk about breakage or contracts.  Pretty soon I'm going to stop myself from talking about anything or to anyone on TUG.  It's a good thing Don's away and doesn't have to listen to me, but I sure feel bad for the dawg.)



OK one more since you offered the last word. You present yourself as the only person or one of the few that can look at this objectively and constantly refer to the governing Docs that you and only you have thoroughly read. But you miss a major point I believe. Ex: I own Aruba Surf Club which is legally "the association" which has 100% of the shares in the association ownership. These shares represent the  2 & 3 BR units of the development. Owners purchased shares in the association not a deed. When the development is  is sold out all shares in the Association, or most anyway , will be owned by the owners of these shares and owners of these shares will vote for the Board of Directors. Now I know Marriott assigns some A directors but gradually they dwindle with time and how the sales program is going. Hope you agree so far! We agree the so-called Governing Documents control the rules etc. BUT the board of Directors voted in by the A share Association members (owners) can amend the Governing Documents. So tell me what I'm missing. I might be wrong but I believe some of the sold out developments BOD's are 100% controlled by the owners
 And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable. Why don't you ask BP and their shareholders if the total costs they are and will pay are spelled out in law or in their Governing Documents. What law did GS break; granted they have not been convicted yet but it is a perceived responsibility of disclosure or lack thereof to their customers not a written law. SO please stop preaching rules of law that even some of the best minds in this country don't understand never mind you or me.

And To Tombo- Roll Tide


----------



## buzzy

pwrshift said:


> For example, at _BeachPlace Towers_, the calendar shows Platinum floating weeks as 1-17, 22-34, and 51-52. That includes President's Week, March Break, Christmas and other prime times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Example 1, I split my two BeachPlace weeks into Studio, 1 Bdrm, 1 Bdrm, Studio from Presidents Day week for 4 weeks in a row. Then I immediately ask II to find me a 1 or 2 bdrm for the weeks I've got studios booked directly. For 2011 they came through with 2 bdrm suites for my first and fourth weeks - netting me out with 3 bdrms for those weeks (which I'll either deposit or rent my studios as I don't need that much space).
> 
> Example 2, I've also played the game of splitting my Manor Club Sequel MSE (lockoffs) into two parts and trade them back into original Manor Club MMC (non-lockoffs) for two bdrm suites -- never ever missed that and already got it for 2011. Looks like it won't be possible with the new plan *if* I join it.
> 
> 
> I do the same as your first example...if I do not join though, is that senerio impossible through II or just that much more unlikely?


----------



## pacheco18

QUOTE And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable QUOTE

In this case they are not legally enforceable.  I am an attorney.  There are special rules when it comes to contracts for the sale of real estate.  And in any contract, if there is a merger clause (a clause that states that anything outside the writing is not binding), then the verbal agreement does not exist.   The sales contract from Marriott was typical (I signed two of them LOL) - had a merger clause, negated oral representations and gave no implied warranties.


----------



## caterina25

tombo said:


> And points won't change anything other than how many points you need to get a prime week. There will now be points owners with enough points to reserve the hottest weeks on the phone at 8 am reserving the prime weeks, and at 10 am for the most sought after weeks all inventory will still be gone to the most agressive points owners. Marriott has not increased the total inventory by one week or one resort, they have only changed how the inventory will be allocated.[/QUOTE
> 
> They have used our point depreciation as start up money.It would stand to reason because as they roll out their new program they will need a supply of points to have for the new buyers to be able to book where they want to go.They will need this good PR to heighten the interest and strengthen the fabulous new points program.We the owners will receive many incentives to dump our points into their new system.If we don't bite,whose to say how they will distribute their availability for use.Just venting.


----------



## edge4414

pacheco18 said:


> QUOTE And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable QUOTE
> 
> In this case they are not legally enforceable.  I am an attorney.  There are special rules when it comes to contracts for the sale of real estate.  And in any contract, if there is a merger clause (a clause that states that anything outside the writing is not binding), then the verbal agreement does not exist.   The sales contract from Marriott was typical (I signed two of them LOL) - had a merger clause, negated oral representations and gave no implied warranties.



If someone explained that to me correctly that applies to the transfer of the property not the rights of membership in the Association. And it is debatable if the membership in the association is a transfer of real estate, since you can't own land in Aruba I don't believe. And lastly does any of us know Aruba law or St Kitts etc. Would appreciate your thoughts on this. Haven't been happy with things in Aruba for a while and have just asked some questions nothing official.


----------



## edge4414

pacheco18 said:


> QUOTE And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable QUOTE
> 
> In this case they are not legally enforceable.  I am an attorney.  There are special rules when it comes to contracts for the sale of real estate.  And in any contract, if there is a merger clause (a clause that states that anything outside the writing is not binding), then the verbal agreement does not exist.   The sales contract from Marriott was typical (I signed two of them LOL) - had a merger clause, negated oral representations and gave no implied warranties.



Another question please: 
Isn't that a state statute vs Fed law.


----------



## Dean

Bunk said:


> Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work.  The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts.
> 
> I submit the apologists miss the point.  The new system is worse than the system that we were induced to purchase in several ways, including the following:
> 
> 1.	We were told we would be able to do exchanges of similar units throughout the Marriott system, subject to availability.  By skimming the points and messing around with the availability of the units, Marriott has interfered with our ability to make those types of exchanges.
> 2.	We were told that one reason we should buy a Marriott timeshare was that the ability to obtain Marriott reward points was a valuable asset.  At the time I purchased, it was very valuable.  I can bank 105,000 rewards points for my unit.  When I bought, that amount of points was enough to rent my timeshare for a week.  Several years ago, in a precursor to this latest skim, Marriott inflated the points it would charge for my unit by 50%, yet continued to give me the same amount of points.  In sum, it devalued my rewards points by 50%.  So the value of my rewards was reduced from a week at a timeshare to 5 days at a Courtyard!
> 3.	We were told that there was real value in buying from Marriott as opposed to buying at resale.  The new system shows that representation was as hollow as the others.
> 
> I’ve had several conversations with Marriott’s representatives about this new system.  They acknowledge to me that the dream of timeshare ownership that induced many of us to buy Marriott timeshares is much better than the reality of the new system.  One representative candidly told me that he thought that Marriott’s devaluation of the rewards points was even worse than the new system it just designed.
> 
> Those representatives, who included supervisors and point specialists, have also acknowledged to me that Marriott could have devised a new system that charged us a premium when we wanted flexibility, such as reserving less than a week, without having to universally skim points from us on week to week exchanges.  So even the Marriott representatives on the phone are unable to give a legitimate explanation for the skim, other than that Marriott has the legal right to do it.
> 
> Whether or not you agree that Marriott’s conduct in skimming points amounts to theft, I think we should all be able to agree that Marriott has presented itself to the public and to us as an honest and ethical company, and that one of the reasons that many of us spent so much money buying Marriott timeshares is because we believed that we were dealing with an honest and ethical company.  The important issue is whether Marriott is treating us in a fair and ethical way.  The anger and hurt that many of us are expressing are based on our disappointment when we finally realized that Marriott is acting no better than its competitors, and in a lot of ways, is acting worse.  As a result, the argument that Marriott is not technically acting in a criminal way and is not technically committing theft is irrelevant; the company has been harmed immensely when the strongest argument its supporters can come up with is that it has technically not committed theft or that we were naive because we believe its sales staff was telling the truth.
> 
> Marriott’s treatment of the legacy owners may turn out to be extremely shortsighted.  It has created an unwieldy system that will be hard to sell on economic grounds, and will be even harder to sell when the legacy owners tell the new owners how they’ve been treated.  Why would any one invest significant money in the new system once that person learns that the rules can and will change whenever it is in Marriott’s interest to do so?  I also think it will be difficult for Marriott to retain some of its prior sales force who are being called upon to ignore the fact that what they told the legacy owners for 20 years turned out to be pie in the sky.


I think it's interesting that not agreeing with those that see the sky as falling is being a Marriott apologist.  My number one dictum in timeshares is things change, number two is see number one.  Rule number 3 is to discount anything associated with a timeshare sales presentation that sounds like "the salesperson said".  There was never any real value buying from Marriott with a few limited exceptions, no way to make the case that buying from Marriott for the points and option of points for a week was ever a good choice.  Technically NO ONE has lost anything so there is no foul.  While there are things I don't agree with in the new offering, "it is what is is" as they say.  I think your post is trying to say that Marriott presented itself as honest and ethical and this issue confirms otherwise.  I couldn't agree with that, I don't think we have enough info thus far to answer that question but see nothing about this offering that especially suggests otherwise.  It is an add on program for the current owners.


----------



## pacheco18

edge4414 said:


> Another question please:
> Isn't that a state statute vs Fed law.



The contract is governed by the state (or country) stated in the contract.  There is always a paragraph about disputes and it will say something like "This contract is governed by the laws of the State of _____."  It does not necessarily have to be the place where the contract is signed.  Keep in mind that many of us stayed at one Marriott resort but bought our timeshares elsewhere.   Generally, however, a contract for the sale of real estate is governed by the State where the real estate is located.  I do not know about Marriotts outside the US.  I assume the law of Aruba governs the Aruba purchases.  You would have to look at the contract.

Federal law generally does not usually govern contracts unless they are special contracts with the federal government, military or re Indian land etc. with some special circumstances.  There really is no federal contract law.


----------



## Brenda

Numismatist said:


> Only problem for me is that I planned on going to my home resort 2011, so I can't use those nice 800 points before they expire...



Here's how you can use the 800 points in 2011:
1) 2 extra nights at FC Sun-Thu  750 pts
2) Custom House Sun-Thu Off season 4 nights 800 pts
3) Grand Chateau Sun-Thu Spring    750 pts
4) Sunset Point 2BR Summer, Harbor Point 2 BR Summer, Legents Edge (April)
          5 nights   625-750pts

Lots of flexibility.
Good Luck


----------



## dioxide45

Brenda said:


> Here's how you can use the 800 points in 2011:
> 1) 2 extra nights at FC Sun-Thu  750 pts
> 2) Custom House Sun-Thu Off season 4 nights 800 pts
> 3) Grand Chateau Sun-Thu Spring    750 pts
> 4) Sunset Point 2BR Summer, Harbor Point 2 BR Summer, Legents Edge (April)
> 5 nights   625-750pts
> 
> Lots of flexibility.
> Good Luck



Marriott would rather you convert your week and combine your points from converting the week to points with the 800 points. I think the 800 number was set at that for the very reason to entice enrollees to convert their weeks and combine the points.


----------



## dioxide45

*Marriott Steals More*

I notice in the disclosure documents that if you have points remaining at the end of the year that are not enough to book any single stay type that you lose those points and can't roll them over. So if you have 2150 points and only need 2100 for a stay, you lose those 50 points. They are not any good for booking anything at any resort, so they are gone forever.

You can't save up those 50 points each year by rolling them over to combine them at one point for an extra day.


----------



## DanCali

DanCali said:


> No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.
> 
> Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.
> 
> Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):
> 
> MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
> MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")
> 
> 
> MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
> MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225
> 
> Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
> Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
> Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225
> 
> Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")
> 
> To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.
> 
> For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.







RandR said:


> Point well taken.  I was though just referring to the actual cash outlay that the person was talking about.



I realize you were pointing to the cash outlay. But many peole seem to think $199 and done and that they are saving a ton versus II fees, lockoff fees, split fees etc. The above show you that the "hidden lockoff fees" are much higher. The "skim" is another hidden cost because 7 days at your home resort now get you 5-6 days at a comparable resort (not to mention f you are not premier you can only book those at 10 months out, so forget high demand weeks - another hidden cost).

In the past it would have cost you $89+$109+109=$307 to trade a 2BR lockoff into a 1BR and a studio (but many times you may have gotten an upgrade). Based on those "hidden" lockoff fees above, on top of the annual fee, it's hard to argue the new system is more economical... that's besides that fact that you simply cannot trade into a comparable resort for two weeks with a single 2BR since you don't have the necessary points! But if you use points from a second resort, or rent the point from a member, you pay that "hidden" fee


----------



## tombo

dioxide45 said:


> I notice in the disclosure documents that if you have points remaining at the end of the year that are not enough to book any single stay type that you lose those points and can't roll them over. So if you have 2150 points and only need 2100 for a stay, you lose those 50 points. They are not any good for booking anything at any resort, so they are gone forever.
> 
> You can't save up those 50 points each year by rolling them over to combine them at one point for an extra day.



More  points paid for by points members  that end up in Marriott's kitty. Good thing Marriott gets those extra points, otherwise they might have skimmed 15% TO 20% off of everyone's deposit instead of 7% to 13%.


----------



## tombo

DanCali said:


> No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.
> 
> Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.
> 
> Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):
> 
> MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
> MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")
> 
> 
> MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
> MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225
> 
> Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
> Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675
> 
> Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")
> 
> Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
> Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225
> 
> Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")
> 
> To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.
> 
> For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.





DanCali said:


> I realize you were pointing to the cash outlay. But many peole seem to think $199 and done and that they are saving a ton versus II fees, lockoff fees, split fees etc. The above show you that the "hidden lockoff fees" are much higher. The "skim" is another hidden cost because 7 days at your home resort now get you 5-6 days at a comparable resort (not to mention f you are not premier you can only book those at 10 months out, so forget high demand weeks - another hidden cost).
> 
> In the past it would have cost you $89+$109+109=$307 to trade a 2BR lockoff into a 1BR and a studio (but many times you may have gotten an upgrade). Based on those "hidden" lockoff fees above, on top of the annual fee, it's hard to argue the new system is more economical... that's besides that fact that you simply cannot trade into a comparable resort for two weeks with a single 2BR since you don't have the necessary points! But if you use points from a second resort, or rent the point from a member, you pay that "hidden" fee .



Thank you for taking the time to post specific costs. As you said so many are buying the marriott pitch of when you convert to points and pay $165 a year you can use points to exchange and use lock-offs with no exchange fees and no lock-off fees. There are no cash exchange/lockoff fees, but there are costs to use points that Marriott snuck into their points program. In your posts you  clearly show the hidden costs of point skimming (breakage) and prove that the real cost of exchanging and locking off using points is higher that what II charges. In addition using points to exchange guarantees that you will never trade up like you can often do using II. In fact thanks to skimming you are guaranteed that you will never even be able to trade like for like using points, much less trade up. Great posts to inform and educate.


----------



## wsrobinson

edge4414 said:


> OK one more since you offered the last word. You present yourself as the only person or one of the few that can look at this objectively and constantly refer to the governing Docs that you and only you have thoroughly read. But you miss a major point I believe. Ex: I own Aruba Surf Club which is legally "the association" which has 100% of the shares in the association ownership. These shares represent the  2 & 3 BR units of the development. Owners purchased shares in the association not a deed. When the development is  is sold out all shares in the Association, or most anyway , will be owned by the owners of these shares and owners of these shares will vote for the Board of Directors. Now I know Marriott assigns some A directors but gradually they dwindle with time and how the sales program is going. Hope you agree so far! We agree the so-called Governing Documents control the rules etc. BUT the board of Directors voted in by the A share Association members (owners) can amend the Governing Documents. So tell me what I'm missing. I might be wrong but I believe some of the sold out developments BOD's are 100% controlled by the owners
> And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable. Why don't you ask BP and their shareholders if the total costs they are and will pay are spelled out in law or in their Governing Documents. What law did GS break; granted they have not been convicted yet but it is a perceived responsibility of disclosure or lack thereof to their customers not a written law. SO please stop preaching rules of law that even some of the best minds in this country don't understand never mind you or me.
> 
> And To Tombo- Roll Tide



I am not sure relating BP and the fiasco in the Gulf is even remotely similar to the new program Marriott has rolled out (or anything Marriott has done in the distant past).  Without getting into a discussion of all the facts surrounding BP, suffice it to say their deplorable record speaks for itself.  Marriott has rolled out a new program, you are NOT forced to join  the last time I checked (and no wildlife has been harmed).  It seems to me like some people are happy about the new program, why not just let them make their decision and be happy.  If your neighbor buys a new car, do you walk over and tell him what an awful car it is, how bad the design is, ugly the color is, what a bad deal he got, etc.  or do you just admire the car and privately chastise him?


----------



## KathyPet

Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort???    I truly do not understand.  You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort.  You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade.  Marriott has not taken anything away from you.  You still have all the same capability that you had before.  You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to.  Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly.  We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season.  I do prefer that option to "you just buy points".   I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal.  That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to.  Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> If my 3BR points value gets me a 2BR in exchange back to my home resort in a higher-demand season, with points left over to be used in a studio or 1BR somewhere else, how is that any different than what I said in the post you quoted?  This is what I said - what is different about how it's working?



If it does- then the system may very week work for you. Actually, it seems like the HH point allotments may have been fairly equitable, since it seems like owners were awarded mid range values in their seasons.

I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks.

And, clearly, many others cannot reserve weeks in their season as well. Fixed week owners were awarded fewer points than their week costs to book. 

These cases are clear evidence of Marriott's skimming. Instead of being able to get equivalent trades, if I don't have enough points to book the equivalent unit in my home resort, I don't have enough points to book it anywhere else either. So, for certain owners at least, Marriott has ensured that they will always have to be downgraded- of course, unless they want to shell out another $9200 + $400 per year in perpetuity.


----------



## m61376

DavidnRobin said:


> Yep - and I am still basking in vacation glow from our 2-weeks at Westin St John...
> 
> I was over here to try and figure out what was going on - this thread must be the all-time winner in the #post/day.  As a partially biased non-Marriott owner - Marriott is really screwing Marriott Owners here no matter how one cuts it.  I am afraid that the upper-managment at SVO is trying to figure out how to outdue MVC managment in screwing over their owners so they can be #1 again in sucking as much $ they can from the Owners while keeping their house of cards from falling...  It might be challenging - but I am sure SVO will come up with something.



Maybe that's it- just a frightening competition


----------



## tombo

KathyPet said:


> Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort???    I truly do not understand.  You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort.  You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade.  Marriott has not taken anything away from you.  You still have all the same capability that you had before.  You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to.  Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly.  We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season.  I do prefer that option to "you just buy points".   I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal.  That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to.  Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.



If we could be guaranteed to still do what we have always done it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that in addition to the points skim making sure that you will never trade up or even get like for like trades ,narriott will no longer deposit it's developer's inventory into II for weeks owners access. Marriott inventory will from now on be available exclusivelly for points owners. Marriott is doing everything in their power to reduce access to inventory for those who don't convert. They have created two separate groups of owners, and Marriott has a vested interest to make sure that the points owners get better access to better inventory than the weeeks owners.

DVC sold points and only points, so does Starwood, HGVC, and others. If people want to join points programs, those are available through other developers. I don't now and never did like points which is why I own over 20 different weeks at various resorts, and none of the weeks I own are points. Points are like Monopoly money, they have imaginary values and the values are subject to change at any time. If you have any doubts see how marriott has adjusted Marriott rewards points values through the years so that they are much less valuable currently than they started out.

Marriott to make money has totally changed their program they sold for over 20 years and are no longer promoting and supporting weeks and instead are pushing and promoting points for marriott profit.  If they build any new resorts, rather than being available to all Marriott owners, exchanges at all new resorts will only be available to points members. When you purchased marriott you became a part of the Marriott family. Somehow weeks owners are getting disowned and becoming the red headed step child of Marriott timeshares.

Marriott is also taking the votes from owners who convert to points. If they want the vote they never had access to before, they have something in mind they want to use it for, and it is something they don't think owners would vote for or they would leave the vote with owners when they convert. 

If you want points, buy a points resort. We ALL purchased weeks. Marriott should stay true to it's customers and continue weeks the program they developed and sold for several decades.


----------



## wsrobinson

m61376 said:


> If it does- then the system may very week work for you. Actually, it seems like the HH point allotments may have been fairly equitable, since it seems like owners were awarded mid range values in their seasons.
> 
> I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks.
> 
> And, clearly, many others cannot reserve weeks in their season as well. Fixed week owners were awarded fewer points than their week costs to book.
> 
> These cases are clear evidence of Marriott's skimming. Instead of being able to get equivalent trades, if I don't have enough points to book the equivalent unit in my home resort, I don't have enough points to book it anywhere else either. So, for certain owners at least, Marriott has ensured that they will always have to be downgraded- of course, unless they want to shell out another $9200 + $400 per year in perpetuity.



After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort.  I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard.  I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual.  I don't think there is a "c".  As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death.  How many different ways can you lay something out?  I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc).  If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now.  As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit?   If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.


----------



## m61376

rsackett said:


> I think because it is not spelled out as an exchange fee and seems like Marriott was trying to hide this or think people would not notice is what has people upset.
> On one hand Marriott states "your annual fee of covers all internal Marriott trades", but then takes a bit of your points to pay for it bothers people.
> I think it would have been fairer for Marriott to say, "All II Marriott exchanges are covered by your annual fee, all points trades cost $xx per trade", and adjust the fee accordingly.  If you have a week that costs 4000 points to get and Marriott gives you 93% of that amount that results in 280 points Marriott kept.  If those points are worth $0.40 (Marriott's number) in maintenance fees that is a dollar value of $112.  This seems like a high exchange charge, in addition to your yearly fee, if you went for one exchange (a 7 day week). If you did 7 one day exchanges this would not seem so bad.  This is why I think Marriott would have been better off giving full value in point to weeks owners and charged a small fee per exchange.
> 
> Ray



I don't think you can just consider that Marirott is taking the number of points x .40 to determine the lost value. That just covers the MF's- but what about the cost to buy those points or buy the minimum quantity of points necessary just to replaced the value lost by the skimming?


----------



## wsrobinson

tombo said:


> If we could be guaranteed to still do what we have always done it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that in addition to the points skim making sure that you will never trade up or even get like for like trades ,narriott will no longer deposit it's developer's inventory into II for weeks owners access. Marriott inventory will from now on be available exclusivelly for points owners. Marriott is doing everything in their power to reduce access to inventory for those who don't convert. They have created two separate groups of owners, and Marriott has a vested interest to make sure that the points owners get better access to better inventory than the weeeks owners.
> 
> DVC sold points and only points, so does Starwood, HGVC, and others. If people want to join points programs, those are available through other developers. I don't now and never did like points which is why I own over 20 different weeks at various resorts, and none of the weeks I own are points. Points are like Monopoly money, they have imaginary values and the values are subject to change at any time. If you have any doubts see how marriott has adjusted Marriott rewards points values through the years so that they are much less valuable currently than they started out.
> 
> Marriott to make money has totally changed their program they sold for over 20 years and are no longer promoting and supporting weeks and instead are pushing and promoting points for marriott profit.  If they build any new resorts, rather than being available to all Marriott owners, exchanges at all new resorts will only be available to points members. When you purchased marriott you became a part of the Marriott family. Somehow weeks owners are getting disowned and becoming the red headed step child of Marriott timeshares.
> 
> Marriott is also taking the votes from owners who convert to points. If they want the vote they never had access to before, they have something in mind they want to use it for, and it is something they don't think owners would vote for or they would leave the vote with owners when they convert.
> 
> If you want points, buy a points resort. We ALL purchased weeks. Marriott should stay true to it's customers and continue weeks the program they developed and sold for several decades.



So, basically this is sour grapes?  Sounds like you realize that you need to buy into the points program and are just not at all happy about being "forced" to do so???  Am I reading into your post too much?


----------



## DanCali

*To Those Who Complaind About Availability in Weeks*

I recall some people didn't like the fact that owners reserved high-demand weeks weeks at their home resorts to deposit in II. My argument was that at least you can still get those weeks...

How do you think you will fare when it comes to availability now that any Orlando or Branson owner with enough points can reserve a week at your home resort and rent it out? Once those weeks are reserved, they ar not coming back unless you pay cash...


----------



## potterew

I have 2 weeks bought from the developer and an additional week that I discovered post TUG through resale.  This seems like I have a bad deal because I have to pay both initiation fees, although it shouldn't exceed $1995.

I have 2 weeks in Hawaii that I will only use or at worst case rent.  I never intend to trade them.  I also have a week in Myrtle Beach, which will probably be traded occasionally.  Those of you who have spent many hours evaluating this, how would you handle this?


----------



## m61376

Bunk said:


> Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work.  The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts.
> 
> I submit the apologists miss the point.  The new system is worse than the system that we were induced to purchase in several ways, including the following:
> 
> 1.	We were told we would be able to do exchanges of similar units throughout the Marriott system, subject to availability.  By skimming the points and messing around with the availability of the units, Marriott has interfered with our ability to make those types of exchanges.
> 2.	We were told that one reason we should buy a Marriott timeshare was that the ability to obtain Marriott reward points was a valuable asset.  At the time I purchased, it was very valuable.  I can bank 105,000 rewards points for my unit.  When I bought, that amount of points was enough to rent my timeshare for a week.  Several years ago, in a precursor to this latest skim, Marriott inflated the points it would charge for my unit by 50%, yet continued to give me the same amount of points.  In sum, it devalued my rewards points by 50%.  So the value of my rewards was reduced from a week at a timeshare to 5 days at a Courtyard!
> 3.	We were told that there was real value in buying from Marriott as opposed to buying at resale.  The new system shows that representation was as hollow as the others.
> 
> I’ve had several conversations with Marriott’s representatives about this new system.  They acknowledge to me that the dream of timeshare ownership that induced many of us to buy Marriott timeshares is much better than the reality of the new system.  One representative candidly told me that he thought that Marriott’s devaluation of the rewards points was even worse than the new system it just designed.
> 
> Those representatives, who included supervisors and point specialists, have also acknowledged to me that Marriott could have devised a new system that charged us a premium when we wanted flexibility, such as reserving less than a week, without having to universally skim points from us on week to week exchanges.  So even the Marriott representatives on the phone are unable to give a legitimate explanation for the skim, other than that Marriott has the legal right to do it.
> 
> Whether or not you agree that Marriott’s conduct in skimming points amounts to theft, I think we should all be able to agree that Marriott has presented itself to the public and to us as an honest and ethical company, and that one of the reasons that many of us spent so much money buying Marriott timeshares is because we believed that we were dealing with an honest and ethical company.  The important issue is whether Marriott is treating us in a fair and ethical way.  The anger and hurt that many of us are expressing are based on our disappointment when we finally realized that Marriott is acting no better than its competitors, and in a lot of ways, is acting worse.  As a result, the argument that Marriott is not technically acting in a criminal way and is not technically committing theft is irrelevant; the company has been harmed immensely when the strongest argument its supporters can come up with is that it has technically not committed theft or that we were naive because we believe its sales staff was telling the truth.
> 
> Marriott’s treatment of the legacy owners may turn out to be extremely shortsighted.  It has created an unwieldy system that will be hard to sell on economic grounds, and will be even harder to sell when the legacy owners tell the new owners how they’ve been treated.  Why would any one invest significant money in the new system once that person learns that the rules can and will change whenever it is in Marriott’s interest to do so?  *I also think it will be difficult for Marriott to retain some of its prior sales force who are being called upon to ignore the fact that what they told the legacy owners for 20 years turned out to be pie in the sky.*


Well said!
Keep in mind that Fletch said he and I believe 4 other top salespeople jumped ship because they knew some of the details of what was coming....


----------



## tombo

wsrobinson said:


> After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort.  I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard.  I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual.  I don't think there is a "c".  As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death.  How many different ways can you lay something out?  I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc).  If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now.  As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit?   If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.



a.If you do not join the program and marriott limits access to inventory for weeks owners shifting it to points members, it is not business as usual.
b.If you join the program and continue business as usual, you give up your vote and your week if deposited in II is deposited as points inventory, so again not business as usual.
c. Marriott has costs like housekeeping which justifies skimming of points?? Did those housekeepers suddenly appear with points? Didn't we have housekeeping before points was introduced on the 20th? Those should easily be covered as they always have been by MF's. My MF's didn't drop since points were introduced. If Marriott instead of hiding the costs as points skimmed charged $109 per exchange like II, you would have access to all of your points and could make like for like exchanges. It would be acceptable and there would be little uproar. Marriott doesn't want to do that because you would have no incentive to buy more points. If you can't exchange for like resorts thanks to their skimming you might buy more points, and Marriott set it up that way on purpose. I would gladly pay $109 per exchange and get ALL of my points rather than have to spend $9200 plus $400 more per year in MF's just to get enough points have access to like for like trades with no exchange fees! 

Profit? Marriott already made profit when they sold all of these weeks. The owners have already paid Marriott for what they own, even resale owners, because every week at one time or another was sold by Marriott. Do we have to keep repurchasing the weeks we own every so often so Marriott can make more profit on us?

In addition Marriott still makes profit managing Marriott resorts through mgt fees taken from our MF's. Is that not enough profit either? So now Marriott is charging owners between $599 and $1999 to convert. Is that not enough profit either? If not let them charge more to convert, but don't sneak it in as a skim. DVC doesn't skim, HGVC, Starwood, everyone but Marriott can run a points program profitably without skimming points from owners. Marriott charges $165 per year to be a points member. If that is not enough to run the program without skimming points then as I said before, charge more for annual fees. Skimming points for profit while claiming that exchnages and lock-offs are done for no charge is a new low for any timeshare organization, and the type thing you expect from Wyndham or Wastegate, not Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks. ...



That SurfClub OS/OV issue with Marriott not allotting more points to the intervals they sold for a higher price makes no sense to me.  None.  I read it in one of these threads the first day and thought maybe it was one of the computer glitch mistakes that SurfWatch had, but then I saw a post from someone who said they'd confirmed it wasn't a mistake.  I forget where the post was, what thread, but I suggested that person write a letter to a Marriott exec with that valid concern.  Just like I said there, it may not do any good but a letter is probably not going to get lost like one phone complaint among the thousands of telephone calls that are coming in might, and it's always better to take legitimate concerns to the top.  Good luck to all you, m, if you do decide to challenge it further.  Among all the cacophony of "Unfair!" charges, this is the one that seems most legitimate to me.


----------



## tombo

wsrobinson said:


> So, basically this is sour grapes?  Sounds like you realize that you need to buy into the points program and are just not at all happy about being "forced" to do so???  Am I reading into your post too much?



Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them. 

Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold Rewards Points as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points  track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experience the inevitable future points changes will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.


----------



## wsrobinson

tombo said:


> a.If you do not join the program and marriott limits access to inventory for weeks owners shifting it to points members, it is no business as usual.
> 
> *Has this happened or are you Nostrodamus?*
> 
> b.If you join the program and continue business as usual, you give up your vote and your week if deposited in II is deposited as points inventory, so again not business as usual.
> 
> *So what?  I've been an owner for almost 20 years and can't remember a time when something was worth voting on. Now, if you attend the annual meeting every year and vote on new business brought before the board I think you have an argument here. Otherwise, who cares?*
> 
> c. Marriott has costs like housekeeping? Did those suddenly appear with points? Didn't we have housekeeping before points was introduced on the 20th? Those should easily be covered as they always have been by MF's. My MF's didn't drop since points were introduced. If Marriott instead of hiding the costs as points skimmed charged $109 per exchange like II, you would have access to all of your points and could make like for like exchanges. It would be acceptable and there would be little uproar. Marriott doesn't want to do that because you would have no incentive to buy more points. If you can't exchange for like resorts thanks to their skimming you might buy more points, and Marriott set it up that way on purpose. I would gladly pay $109 per exchange and get ALL of my points rather than have to spend $9200 plus $400 more per year in MF's just to get enough points have access to like for like trades with no exchange fees!
> 
> *Marriott currently has housekeeping expenses which are added to maint fee at a rate of ONCE per week (and looking at the budget its a pretty huge expense) under the new points system, they could have housekeeping expenses 7 times a week.  In extreme cases of course but that is a considerable expense.*
> 
> Profit? Marriott already made profit when they sold all of these weeks. The owners have already paid Marriott for what they own, even resale owners, because every week at one time or another was sold by Marriott. Do we have to keep repurchasing the weeks we own every so often so Marriott can make more profit on s?
> 
> *I bought developer and yet have no ill will toward Marriott.  Are you that unhappy with your purchase.  They have counseling for that.*
> 
> In addition Marriott still makes profit managing Marriott resorts through mgt fees taken from our MF's. Is that not enough profit either? So now Marriott is charging owners between $599 and $1999 to convert. Is that not enough profit either? If not let them charge more to convert, but don't sneak it in as a skim. DVC doesn't skim *(this isnt true.  you don't know because DVC has always been points), *
> HGVC, Starwood, everyone but Marriott can run a points program profitably without skimming points from owners. Marriott charges $165 per year to be a points member. If that is not enough to run the program without skimming points then as I said before, charge more for annual fees. Skimming points for profit while claiming that exchnages and lock-offs are done for no charge is a new low for any timeshare organization, and the type thing you expect from Wyndham or Wastegate, not Marriott.



I certainly understand some hard feelings but some of this is ridiculous


----------



## m61376

wsrobinson said:


> After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort.  I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard.  I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual.  I don't think there is a "c".  As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death.  How many different ways can you lay something out?  I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc).  If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now.  As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit?   If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.



Marriott already made a profit the first time they sold the week. Is it your contention that they should now be making a second profit on those same units?

Business will not be as usual because of inventory issues as pointed out repeatedly by others.

Many other systems charge housekeeping costs for shorter stays- why should every owner pay for those costs if they aren't splitting up their stays? Marriott is touting a singular fee for all activities- locking off, exchanging, etc.- but, in reality, it is not the 169 or 199 that they tout it as being. It is also 7-15% of the value of your week.

And, last but not least, if you had carefully read through many of the posts you would see there are many owners who appear to have received the average value for weeks in their season, while others cannot book even a single week in their season. Furthermore, I know of no other property where Marriott charged 3-4K up front for a better view but assigned the same points to both view categories (there may be- I just am unaware of the situation).

If what was given was the same as what was being taken, you would not hear so much outrage. But advertising a low fee for everything and then hiding the real fees by skimming off the top smells of usury, imho. You are free to disagree.


----------



## brigechols

tombo said:


> Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them.
> 
> Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold that as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points  track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experince the changes in points will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.



I concur   Count me in the "Left Behind" club. I'll keep my weeks out of the points program.


----------



## wsrobinson

tombo said:


> Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them.
> 
> *Last time I checked, NO ONE is being forced into anything.*
> 
> Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold Rewards Points as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points  track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experience the inevitable future points changes will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.



I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for.  Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap).  Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs.  Need I go on...


----------



## jimf41

wsrobinson said:


> I certainly understand some hard feelings but some of this is ridiculous



I second the motion.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> That SurfClub OS/OV issue with Marriott not allotting more points to the intervals they sold for a higher price makes no sense to me.  None.  I read it in one of these threads the first day and thought maybe it was one of the computer glitch mistakes that SurfWatch had, but then I saw a post from someone who said they'd confirmed it wasn't a mistake.  I forget where the post was, what thread, but I suggested that person write a letter to a Marriott exec with that valid concern.  Just like I said there, it may not do any good but a letter is probably not going to get lost like one phone complaint among the thousands of telephone calls that are coming in might, and it's always better to take legitimate concerns to the top.  Good luck to all you, m, if you do decide to challenge it further.  Among all the cacophony of "Unfair!" charges, this is the one that seems most legitimate to me.



Already done- as well as pointing out that the Plat. SC weeks are among the units that weren't allotted enough points to book a single week in their season. I can understand where weeks were awarded a middle of the season value, but not less than any week in the season.

I also hoped it was just a glitch, but talking with the reps it doesn't appear that way. I did write to several people and I'll see if anything comes of it. I don't get how Marriott last week charged more and this week says it's worth the same. Oh- and btw- they still charge more on their website to rent it when the OS units aren't sold out (and they tend to be the ones sold out first). I guess someone thinks they are worth more.


----------



## wsrobinson

m61376 said:


> Marriott already made a profit the first time they sold the week. Is it your contention that they should now be making a second profit on those same units?
> 
> Business will not be as usual because of inventory issues as pointed out repeatedly by others.
> 
> Many other systems charge housekeeping costs for shorter stays- why should every owner pay for those costs if they aren't splitting up their stays? Marriott is touting a singular fee for all activities- locking off, exchanging, etc.- but, in reality, it is not the 169 or 199 that they tout it as being. It is also 7-15% of the value of your week.
> 
> And, last but not least, if you had carefully read through many of the posts you would see there are many owners who appear to have received the average value for weeks in their season, while others cannot book even a single week in their season. Furthermore, I know of no other property where Marriott charged 3-4K up front for a better view but assigned the same points to both view categories (there may be- I just am unaware of the situation).
> 
> If what was given was the same as what was being taken, you would not hear so much outrage. But advertising a low fee for everything and then hiding the real fees by skimming off the top smells of usury, imho. You are free to disagree.



The OS/OV mess is a valid point.  I agree w/ you on that alone and think Marriott will eventually correct it (especially if you bring it to their attention).


----------



## m61376

wsrobinson said:


> I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for.  Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap).  Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs.  Need I go on...



Funny- you can look at your post two ways- I actually see it as a likely indication of the future. Marriott has clearly indicated that they see nothing wrong with devaluing a week, by virtue of the fact that they are charging more than they are giving. Hmmm...reminiscent of the rewards point program. Value are set today, but costs go up next year, and the year after....

In a points trust the number of points in the trust are set- so that Marriott cannot sell more points than are currently in the trust. BUT is there a limit on what they can charge? Today for every 100,000 points units are valued at they are charging in the area of 110,000; can they decide to add a few bells and whistles (like the wonderful improvements in the rewards points program) and now charge 115,000, etc.? *Is there anything to prevent future devaluation*, except to blindly trust them, because of course they have never done anything like that before?


----------



## tombo

wsrobinson said:


> I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for.  Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap).  Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs.  Need I go on...



Frito Lay doesn't sell you a 6 ounce bag and when you actually want to eat them require you to give 2 ounces of the chips to Frito Lay so they can make additional profit on what they already sold you. They don't say the bag is 6 ounces of chips, but skim 2 ounces at the factory only giving you 4 ounces you can actually eat in order to cover Frito Lay expenses and make profit. If they did that it would be a good analogy. Marriott is skimming product you have paid for and hiding exchange costs and other fees using their new points. Frito lay gives you all 6 ounces you purchased, Marriott gives you less points than you purchased.

Hey you love it, convert. I think it is a rip off, i won't convert, and I will explain skimming, loss of vote, hidden fees, and other problems with the program. You explain the good things. Then everyone on TUG will have the chance to listen to those who like the points program, and those who don't, and decide whether they want to convert or not using real facts rather than Marriott's sales facts.


----------



## scrapngen

Brenda said:


> No, I did not pay $200K-$300K for my 6 units. Some are EOY units and  pre construction from 1997 when I paid less than $18,000 for my first (Kauai Beach Club OF). I paid between $3,000 and $21,000 for my units. The $3,000 is a Marriott resale at Vail. The avg is $14,000. My total is less than $100k. My M/F are around $5,600 a year. I can travel wherever and whenever I want. I look at it as though I bought a second home everywhere without the hassles of responsibilities. Where can I have a second home for under $100K and less than $6K annual upkeep.
> 
> The point system opens lots of options that you can enjoy if you only open your mind to it. See the packages I referenced. Even with only 3,000 pts, you can enjoy multiple resorts in HI, CA, CO ski instead of just going to your same home resort.



Hi Brenda, 

Congratulations that this point system will work well for you! 

As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards. 

So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this. 

But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases. 

FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks  

OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc.    PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things. 

I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. *I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! *One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there. 

But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.


----------



## cruisin

tombo said:


> Frito Lay doesn't sell you a 6 ounce bag and when you actually want to eat them require you to give 2 ounces of the chips to Frito Lay so they can make additional profit on what they already sold you. They don't say the bag is 6 ounces of chips, but skim 2 ounces at the factory only giving you 4 ounces you can actually eat in order to cover Frito Lay expenses and make profit. If they did that it would be a good analogy. Marriott is skimming product you have paid for and hiding exchange costs and other fees using their new points. Frito lay gives you all 6 ounces you purchased, Marriott gives you less points than you purchased.
> 
> Hey you love it, convert. I think it is a rip off, i won't convert, and I will explain skimming, loss of vote, hidden fees, and other problems with the program. You explain the good things. Then everyone on TUG will have the chance to listen to those who like the points program, and those who don't, and decide whether they want to convert or not using real facts rather than Marriott's sales facts.



Its good for some people, bad for the club. It does not make sense for me, if it did, I would join, but it is bad for the club, skimming is a bad omen and clearly states their MO, Why would they need our voting rights, its our week, we just turn it into points, all signs that the club in general is in trouble. When the direction of Marriott is bad, it can't lead to good things for the club.

I really hope they develope a couple new properties, it would also show the direction of the club. They built the last few very beautiful because they had to sell deeds to them. They have enough beautiful resorts, now they just need to create points.


----------



## Brenda

scrapngen said:


> Hi Brenda,
> 
> Congratulations that this point system will work well for you!
> 
> As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards.
> 
> So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this.
> 
> But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases.
> 
> FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks
> 
> OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc.    PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things.
> 
> I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. *I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! *One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there.
> 
> But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.


========================================================
This is beautifully stated. I do understand that owning only one or two weeks, the point system may not be advantageous. I too, would question whether I would be happy if I owned fewer weeks, where losing points is crucial or owning resale, where I would have to pay close to $2000 to enroll. I also own at Hilton and Starwood, where what you own in points is what you get when you convert. However, Marriott has so many more resorts to choose from. It is a change, a BIG change. I look at trading to resorts that you don't own, with so many choices, as costing a price. That price is less points to use. The price used to be $109. Now it is less points. I understand that maybe you prefer to pay the $109 and have the same trades. If I owned 1 or 2 units, I would still enroll and would consider going 6 days, instead of 7 and not be in the hole price-wise the following year. I would take more 5 day weekday vacations to make up. I would not buy more points. Yes, you are used to vacationing 7 days on a trade prior to the new system. I used to trade the studio portion of a lock-off for a 1 Bed most of the time. But I prefer to have a confirmed reservation right up front than playing the hoping and waiting game of II. We all have different priorities. I do understand your position.

I only referred to "opening your mind" because there were overwhelming discussions on how much is lost with the new system. I wanted Tuggers to see that there are some other advantages also. For example, the packages I posted, where you can vacation to different resorts as a sampler for under 3,000 points. We were never able to do that prior with a one week ownership.
There may be some folks who would like to try that. But with so much negative, they would never look at the other choices. There may be some folk who just want to go to their owned resort and trade equal sometimes. I get it.

I don't know if you've noticed that it is more difficult getting trades through II than years ago. I travel mostly to Hawaii. There is significantly less availability this year; a year when travel is supposed to down due to a weak economy. My friend tells me there is less availability at HHI top resorts summer also. I have been waiting for a 1 Bed KMO trade for over 4 months and I am looking for Sept, a slow season. I used to get my trades almost immediately. Only studios have been available. It just maybe, that II is drying up trade wise anyway and we desperately need another way to trade. Even Hilton Hawaiian village is difficult to get outside of your owned availability this year. The world is changing. Marriott is giving us another option. It may not be perfect but it is another option. It could be that what you are losing (availability in II), may already be dwindling and going down that road will turn out to be a dead end, even without Marriott stealing from the pot and premium folks taking all the trades.

There will probably be a market to buy/sell one time use points to add to your inventory when you need it. It is better than purchasing points with associated added M/F. Worldmark owners have been doing that for years. There will also probably be more owner to owner trades.

I also realize that Marriott is having a hard time the last few years with low timeshare sales. The Ritz Carlton brand did not pan out, as expected. New construction has been put on hold. In order to survive, they had to come up with a way to increase sales. Point system is the plan, where you don't have to sell a unit only sell currency. If Marriott was to fail in the timeshare arena, we would suffer even greater than the loss of point values and lack of availability for trades. Your home resort may be sold out of the Marriott system and into something much worse.

The only thing certain in this world is change. Sometimes, we just have to find what is good with the change and move on. Other alternatives will open when there is a need. Necessity is the mother of invention. Anyway, I do wish the best vacationing for all. Let's vacation wherever and have a great time with our loved ones. That's what vacationing is about - FUN.


----------



## DanCali

Brenda;935514} If I owned 1 or 2 units said:
			
		

> Just a little reminder that us (the "little people" with less than 13K allocated points) cannot book 5 or 6 days until 10 months in advance. By definition, that would not work for most high demnd weeks...


----------



## csalter2

*I just don't get it*



scrapngen said:


> Hi Brenda,
> 
> Congratulations that this point system will work well for you!
> 
> As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards.
> 
> So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this.
> 
> But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases.
> 
> FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks
> 
> OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc.    PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things.
> 
> I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. *I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! *One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there.
> 
> But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.



I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. *You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort.* You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. *You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. * In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks. 

For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10  or 12 months out.


----------



## edge4414

wsrobinson said:


> I am not sure relating BP and the fiasco in the Gulf is even remotely similar to the new program Marriott has rolled out (or anything Marriott has done in the distant past).  Without getting into a discussion of all the facts surrounding BP, suffice it to say their deplorable record speaks for itself.  Marriott has rolled out a new program, you are NOT forced to join  the last time I checked (and no wildlife has been harmed).  It seems to me like some people are happy about the new program, why not just let them make their decision and be happy.  If your neighbor buys a new car, do you walk over and tell him what an awful car it is, how bad the design is, ugly the color is, what a bad deal he got, etc.  or do you just admire the car and privately chastise him?



wsrobinson
WOW! Where do I compare the points system to the problems in the Gulf. It was strictly a legal point not a moral comparison. Please read again. 
As far as letting things just go because some are happy aren't you doing the same on the other side of the coin. I believe my rights as a voting owner are being swamped. I expected and believe contractually promised, to be voting with other individual owners with similar vacation interests and no one with a monopoly and probably no individual with even 1% of the vote now I am faced with voting against a large conglomerate with probably 50% of the votes. How is that right. What is it that is so hard to understand!!!!!!  I think I can legitimately feel that every person who signs up for this program is affecting my rights. I don't feel animosity to anyone that does that but definitely feel that toward Marriott. *Explain to me the purpose of Marriott taking away your vote to your home resort. You still will pay MF won't you but have no say in them.* What is their purpose? I think you know it is to take away the control the owners had however small. I have seen disputes growing in Aruba between owners and Marriott and now they wipe out the dissenting vote. Also problems at Ocean Pointe concerning remodeling costs. I'm not sure the Ocean Pointe situation applies completely but going forward the board would have no say in what Marriott would do and couldn't stop the renovations as they have now because they were not what most owners wanted. These are concerns that IMO are more important than even the unconscionable skimming issue,


----------



## steveg11

csalter2 said:


> I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. *You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort.* You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. *You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. * In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.
> 
> For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10  or 12 months out.



Finally somebody who actually looked at the facts instead of blindly insisting that Marriott was taking away their home resort or "skimming" their points. Speaking of looking at facts, I notice that some are quoting documents here. I wonder if they bothered to look at the documents they got when they purchased their week. I think those documents clearly state that they are guaranteed a week in the season that they own, the size that they own, the view that they own, at their home resort. But somehow based on rumors and speculation, that right has been taken away?
It is good to see a few rational people posting here.


----------



## steveg11

csalter2 said:


> I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. *You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort.* You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. *You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. * In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.
> 
> For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10  or 12 months out.



Finally somebody who actually looked at the facts instead of blindly insisting that Marriott was taking away their home resort or "skimming" their points. Speaking of looking at facts, I notice that some are quoting documents here. I wonder if they bothered to look at the documents they got when they purchased their week. I think those documents clearly state that they are guaranteed a week in the season that they own, the size that they own, the view that they own, at their home resort. But somehow based on rumors and speculation, that right has been taken away?
It is good to see a few rational people posting here. Like you, I own a 2 BR and I don't need a 2 BR. Before I could pay a fee and lock it off. Now I can not pay a lockoff fee or an exchange fee and turn my week into as many as 60 nights in a studio if I want to. But oh, wait a minute. How is that possible? Let's see, 3275 points for my Grand Chateau? Yep. Nights in the system at resorts I would like to use for as few as 50 points? Check. So that would be, let's see. 65 nights if i want to use it that way? Or 30 if I want to use it a different way? Or 14 if I want to use it a different way? Or 6 if I want to use it a different way? Or 3 if I want to use it a different way? Hmmm. Sounds pretty flexible.


----------



## wuv pooh

m61376 said:


> Well said!
> Keep in mind that Fletch said he and I believe 4 other top salespeople jumped ship because they knew some of the details of what was coming....



I would not read much into this.  I don't know their motives, but consider the new situation.

Fletch is very smart and a Tugger.  An honest Marriott salesman with knowledge could easily crush the sales if he was good.  Under the old system you sold people $20k developer lock offs and even though you couldn't 'guarantee' upgrades you knew how to get them 8 out of 10 times and you told the customer how to do it.  Those people became references.  If someone didn't believe your pitch you could give them 10 people to call to verify.  Those references got friendshare points and the circle of life was complete.  Satisfied customers also brought their home equity for more purchases when they saw how well it worked.  The more satisfied customers the bigger the circle, but never big enough to end the game because most owners are ignorant and their salesman don't have any vision.  If someone wanted to buy Hawaii, you sold them 2 or 3 lockoffs for the same money and you got more commission and they still got to go to Hawaii.

Now that game is over.  It is easy to see the points values and obvious that you will not trade your 1bd lockoff side to Hawaii because you do not have enough points.  The salesman who now have the advantage are the high pressure guys and there is no advantage vs. 'dumb' salesmen.  There are probably still some tricks, but a lot more effort for less payoff than before.

It was really shooting ducks in a barrel for the guys that figured it out.  In retrospect it is easy to see, but Fletch and those guys were smart enough to do it and made a ton of money.  Great for them  but not so great going forward.


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> I would not read much into this.  I don't know their motives, but consider the new situation.
> 
> Fletch is very smart and a Tugger.  An honest Marriott salesman with knowledge could easily crush the sales if he was good.  Under the old system you sold people $20k developer lock offs and even though you couldn't 'guarantee' upgrades you knew how to get them 8 out of 10 times and you told the customer how to do it.  Those people became references.  If someone didn't believe your pitch you could give them 10 people to call to verify.  Those references got friendshare points and the circle of life was complete.  Satisfied customers also brought their home equity for more purchases when they saw how well it worked.  The more satisfied customers the bigger the circle, but never big enough to end the game because most owners are ignorant and their salesman don't have any vision.  If someone wanted to buy Hawaii, you sold them 2 or 3 lockoffs for the same money and you got more commission and they still got to go to Hawaii.
> 
> Now that game is over.  It is easy to see the points values and obvious that you will not trade your 1bd lockoff side to Hawaii because you do not have enough points.  The salesman who now have the advantage are the high pressure guys and there is no advantage vs. 'dumb' salesmen.  There are probably still some tricks, but a lot more effort for less payoff than before.
> 
> It was really shooting ducks in a barrel for the guys that figured it out.  In retrospect it is easy to see, but Fletch and those guys were smart enough to do it and made a ton of money.  Great for them  but not so great going forward.



Fletch and others might have left because they didn't like what Marriott was doing to former customers who bought weeks from them. They might have quit because they felt it was wrong or because some with a conscience couldn't tell the majority of current owners what a great deal converting to points would be for them, but they didn't leave because they didn't think they could make money selling points to uneducated customers off of the street.

The sales people have more wiggle room and can make more promises that they will never be able to deliver than they ever could selling weeks. Sales people are salivating over their income potential with the new points program. The new sales pitches and promises of flexibility are endless with points! If someone buys 4000 points they will  be shown every week in a one bed room or studio at every prime week at the best locations and assured they can easily get it. They will show lots of great 2 bed and 3 bed locations which require 4000 points or less and be told that those are theirs too. They will be shown that they can split points and stay 3 weeks off season, 14 weekend, 25 single nights, they will be promised anything and everything 4000 points can possibly buy whether they can ever actually get those things or not. They will be told to bank their 4000 points this year and use their 8000 points next year to get 4th of july in HHI and Christmas in Park city.  Any time they want to stay for a long weekend or a night or two, points will get that for them. Points will get them cruises, safaris, car rental, air fare, everything but groceries. Plus they will be assured that they can exchange points for every location in the II book easily because marriott points have more value than anything else II has.The ability to promise the moon with points is more varied than they could ever promise with weeks. 

The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekends at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.


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## wuv pooh

tombo said:


> The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekend at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.



That is a HUGE assumption that you really have zero clue about because we can't conceptualize how big the program is and how it will work.  Just think of the current system.  We only see the fringes; weeks online, getaways, Marriott rentals, but have no insight into how many pending requests are filled and how many people get what they want vs. trade down or trade up.  I would bet that there are a whole lot more weeks and days in the system than we think.  We will begin to find out in July for real.  The new system of charging people for the actual relative value of each week will change the demand and peoples behavior in ways we do not know.  Exchange Socialism by rationing and luck is going away and Exchange Capitalism by who is willing to pay the most is coming. The test will be when I try to make my first 5 night reservation on HHI the first week of September.  It may be that nothing is available or it may be that I have 3 choices.  I am sure that someone will start a thread on posting your points and weeks trades.


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## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> That is a HUGE assumption that you really have zero clue about because we can't conceptualize how big the program is and how it will work.  Just think of the current system.  We only see the fringes; weeks online, getaways, Marriott rentals, but have no insight into how many pending requests are filled and how many people get what they want vs. trade down or trade up.  I would bet that there are a whole lot more weeks and days in the system than we think.  We will begin to find out in July for real.  The new system of charging people for the actual relative value of each week will change the demand and peoples behavior in ways we do not know.  Exchange Socialism by rationing and luck is going away and Exchange Capitalism by who is willing to pay the most is coming. The test will be when I try to make my first 5 night reservation on HHI the first week of September.  It may be that nothing is available or it may be that I have 3 choices.  I am sure that someone will start a thread on posting your points and weeks trades.



I do not know the current number of requests made and filled. I do know that Marriott hasn't built a single new resort or a single new room to fill with all the new points owners they are going to sell. They will not sell points promising October in ski resorts, they will sell them promising summer beach weeks and winter ski weeks. The people who owned shoulder season weeks at marginal resorts couldn't compete for prime weeks in the past, and those prime weeks were very hard to come by. Now you let Marriott sell 2 shoulder weeks as 6500 points and they compete with most any week anywhere. 3 shoulder weeks sold as a 7500 point package will give them access to any prime week, yet the inventory their points were based on were not prime weeks, but instead  weeks no one with 2500 points will want to reserve. Marriott can combine 4 or 5  of their absolutelly worst weeks they have in their inventory and sell them as 14,000 points giving the buyer access to inventory at 13 months. There will be more people buying access to prime weeks/resorts every day but Marriott will not add a single prime week to the inventory pool unless they build new resorts (and all of those plans have been cancelled).

The prime weeks/resorts have not increased by one single studio with the advent of points, but the number of people who will have the ability using weeks and points to reserve the limited prime weeks based on AVAILABILITY will increase exponentially as Marriott sells more and more points. As weeks get harder and harder to get, Marriott will charge more and more points to reserve them (read the rules points can be changed based on demand or any other reason). They will not increase the points the person gets when they deposit their prime week, just the points needed to stay in it. Think rewards points. Everyone originally got enough rewards points to reserve the week they own. Now their reward points haven't increased at all but it takes 2 times as many points to reserve your week as what Marriott gives you annually. The best prediction of one's future actions is one's past actions!

That is the future for points! Your skim will become bigger, the number of people competing for prime weeks will be ever increasing, and the only solution will be to buy more points so you will have enough points to retain access to non home resort prime inventory.Sales people will be calling routinelly with good news bad news. Unfortiunatelly due to high demand we have invreased the amount of points needed to stay at the resorts you have historically traded for, but the good news is that we have a special on points right now and you can buy enough to continue to vacation at your favorite resorts for x$'s. Marriott has the fix in, and they will increase the points needed to reserve great weeks anytime their sales slow down. Keep your wallet open because converting to points is only the down payment, you have many more upgrade payments due in the future to buy more points or else you will gradually lose all access to prime weeks not at your home resort. Marriott says pay me now, and pay me later, and later and later...........


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## MOXJO7282

tombo said:


> The sales people have more wiggle room and can make more promises that they will never be able to deliver than they ever could selling weeks. Sales people are salivating over their income potential with the new points program. The new sales pitches and promises of flexibility are endless with points! If someone buys 4000 points they will  be shown every week in a one bed room or studio at every prime week at the best locations and assured they can easily get it. They will show lots of great 2 bed and 3 bed locations which require 4000 points or less and be told that those are theirs too. They will be shown that they can split points and stay 3 weeks off season, 14 weekend, 25 single nights, they will be promised anything and everything 4000 points can possibly buy whether they can ever actually get those things or not. They will be told to bank their 4000 points this year and use their 8000 points next year to get 4th of july in HHI and Christmas in Park city.  Any time they want to stay for a long weekend or a night or two, points will get that for them. Points will get them cruises, safaris, car rental, air fare, everything but groceries. Plus they will be assured that they can exchange points for every location in the II book easily because marriott points have more value than anything else II has.The ability to promise the moon with points is more varied than they could ever promise with weeks.
> 
> The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekends at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.



I don't agree with this statement. For me I think it was much easier to sell the dream than it is now with the points program. In the past all they had to say is "buy low, trade high" no extra money needed to get to Maui, "just exchange in". Now the salesmen have to say either buy this huge package to get to Maui or buy lower point package and either borrow from next year and then no trip then or buy more points. Even uneducated consumers know to ask how much extra will it be to get there? It will no longer be a "free chance" to get to Maui, you will have to pay for it.


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## tombo

MOXJO7282 said:


> I don't agree with this statement. For me I think it was much easier to sell the dream than it is now with the points program. In the past all they had to say is "buy low, trade high" no extra money needed to get to Maui, "just exchange in". Now the salesmen have to say either buy this huge package to get to Maui or buy lower point package and either borrow from next year and then no trip then or buy more points. Even uneducated consumers know to ask how much extra will it be to get there? It will no longer be a "free chance" to get to Maui, you will have to pay for it.



Now they will sell buy a low points package and exchange every other year for prime inventory you didn't buy enough points to afford. Every other year they will be competing for a prime week with you even though their points are based on a February beach week that neither you or they want to waste points reserving. Every other year they have access to prime inventory and what they put into the pool to have access to prime weeks is 2 shoulder weeks no one wants. You think there were losers trading in II, wait until a lot of people buy a lot of points, then you are going to see a lot of losers. Well you will see a lot of losers until they increase points requirements, then only those who buy more points will compete for prime non home inventory and everyone else will be a loser. New buyers purchasing small points packages will be assured that if they decide that they want prime weeks every year that they can always buy more points in the future..........


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## caterina25

KathyPet said:


> Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort???    I truly do not understand.  You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort.  You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade.  Marriott has not taken anything away from you.  You still have all the same capability that you had before.  You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to.  Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly.  We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season.  I do prefer that option to "you just buy points".   I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal.  That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to.  Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.



For me, it's not the skimming of points from my property,but the use of lower range points to reserve a unit of similar value in this new system.When I purchased my TS ,I paid more for platinium,I paid more for oceanside because timeframe and view were important to me and still is.So now I might be able to trade for all that I could trade for before points but with a compromise for timeframe or view.I like some of the features of the point system and it might protect my deeded week in future but I refuse to purchase more points to maintain a status quo.


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## DanCali

csalter2 said:


> I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. *You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort.* You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. *You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. * In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.
> 
> For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10  or 12 months out.



Can you get a summer Maui, Kauiai, or even a summer NCV with your 2BR Platinum Koolina? (I believe the answer is no)

That's the point he was making... The vast majority woul agree that a 2BR Platinum Hawaii is like for like with either of those...


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## Slakk

DanCali said:


> I recall some people didn't like the fact that owners reserved high-demand weeks weeks at their home resorts to deposit in II. My argument was that at least you can still get those weeks...
> 
> How do you think you will fare when it comes to availability now that any Orlando or Branson owner with enough points can reserve a week at your home resort and rent it out? Once those weeks are reserved, they ar not coming back unless you pay cash...



For me it is simple.  I bought my Marriot to use at other Marriott resorts and now with points I will be using II and going outside of MVC to go places.  

My Aruba Week will not get me anywhere in MVC other than FC in my season in a 2BR that I have any interesting in going to.  We wanted to hit Hawaii and unless I am thrilled with trading a 2BR OS for a Studio I can probably do very well trading my week in II for a non-MVC property.  So if the plan is to force current owners of good traders OUT of MVC then it is working great!


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## detjason

*New Marriott Point System hurts existing owners*

This will negatively impact existing owners. Marriott will now maintain its own internal inventory for owners on the point program, decreasing the availability for those on the traditional week system. This can and will occur on ALL deposits, not just point deposits.

For example, I just deposited my Orlando week last night. Traditionally, the week would automatically go to Interval International for exchange and Marriott owners had first crack at it for 60 days.

With the new system, Marriott has no incentive to give it to Interval. They will maintain it and use it for inventory for their points system, excluding traditional owners who trade with Interval from using it.

Not only is there an up front cost with the new point system, the value that they are assigning to weeks is reduces the opportunity for people who own the less expensive resorts. I have four Marriott weeks that I have successfully traded to Hawaii every year for the last 10 years. They are offering me for my 1950 points for my Orlando Cypress Harbour property. When I searched how many points Maui and Kauai cost, they ranged from 4500 to 6800 points. Therefore, it would cost me two to three weeks for one week in Hawaii.

My Streamside Vail Colorado weeks are only worth 950 and my Hilton Head is worth 450 points!!! I just traded the same Hilton Head property for Kauai for this August. Under the new point system, one week in Kauai would cost me 15 years of Hilton Head weeks.

I guess the system would benefit any owners who own Kauai or Maui. They can probably get 20 weeks in Branson for one of their Hawaii weeks.  But Hawaii owners paid the premium to stay in Hawaii every year.


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## sparty

JMAESD84 said:


> An impartial opinion regarding this new system.
> 
> The "family" of converts will see steady and painful escalation of costs.  Why not you've been captured.
> 
> Marriott will have greater sway with all HOA decisions and fees with the added voting rights obtained.



I wouldn't necessarily go so far to say we've been captured.  We still have deeds and the right to reserve/rent and not participate in the points program.

With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven? 

Oh yeah.. I forgot.. Obama is president.. Maybe Vacation Club will become the G-Club. 

Sorry I don't think the program is so terrible


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## sparty

*How do you get interval fees refunded?*

Has anyone got their pre-paid interval fees refunded after joining the program? What's the process to follow?


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## tombo

sparty said:


> I wouldn't necessarily go so far to say we've been captured.  We still have deeds and the right to reserve/rent and not participate in the points program.
> 
> With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven?
> 
> Oh yeah.. I forgot.. Obama is president.. Maybe Vacation Club will become the G-Club.
> 
> Sorry I don't think the program is so terrible



You are captive. You will have too much invested in points just to give up and punt when they increase points needed to reserve weeks you want. Marriott will inch the points reqirements up slowly AFTER they get enough owners enrolled and enough points sold. As they inch points needed over time many will buy a few more points in a few years, then a few more, then eventually you have so much invested in points what is some more money for a few more?


Marriott originally gave owners enough rewards points to reserve their own week. Those owners still get the same number of points for their weeks, yet it takes about twice as many rewards points to reserve your home week as you are given thanks to Marriott charging more and more each year. They will do the same thing with the new points, the only difference is that they are  not a bonus incentive like rewards points, they are the monopoly money Marriott actually charges you to reserve weeks.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> You are captive. You will have too much invested in points just to give up and punt when they increase points needed to reserve weeks you want. Marriott will inch the points reqirements up slowly so you buy a few more in a few years, then a few more, then you have so much invested in points what is some more money for a few more?
> 
> 
> Marriott originally gave owners enough rewards points to reserve their own week. Those owners still get the same number of points for their weeks, yet it takes about twice as many rewards points to reserve your home week as you are given thanks to Marriott charging more and more each year. They will do the same thing with the new points, the only difference is that they are  not a bonus incentive like rewards points, they are the monopoly money Marriott actually charges you to reserve weeks.



I find it very difficult to believe that Marriott has managed to develop the only timeshare system based on points in which the point totals do not have to correlate to the intervals available at each resort.  The disclosures for the program that had to be filed to get this thing off the ground would require that correlation, and it wouldn't pass licensing restrictions without that.  Marriott can do what other timeshare systems have done, which is to re-allocate points across intervals in response to demand, but Marriott cannot simply increase across the board every point requirement.  Marriott can also increase point values as each new resort, if any, is rolled out, but that's also not the steady points inflation that you're insinuating.

Re-allocation and higher point values for newer resorts were included in that speculation thread and explained completely by folks familiar with point systems.  I didn't see any of those folks support the contention of points inflation like you're suggesting here.  Why don't you find the language in the available disclosures at your my-vacationclub.com page and post the link here for us to verify it?


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## DanCali

*Conspiracy Theory or the Week*



sparty said:


> With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven?



Most people are averse to selling at a loss... They would rather hang on to their dear timeshare even as resale prices crater. Even if it is more logical financially to sell today, rent for 2 years, and possibly buy it back in two years for much less if they like it so much. Making the argument that if fees go up you can just dump your timeshare and go to Hilton is easier said than done. Even the biggest opponents of the points system haven't said they will sell out.

Moreover, this could get worse. 

The way the rules stand today you can sell an enrolled unit and the new owner can join for a $2K-5K fee (I believe it's $800 per 1000 points, 2K minimum). Despite the cost, this is an obvious backdoor into the system and beats buying 5000 points for $45K+. 

At some point (probably after most have given up their voting rights) Marriott can/will shut the door on this by disallowing any resale into the system and then we'll all be left in a points system, without the ability to vote our resort out of the system, ever increasing MFs, and "assets" almost worthless on the resale market. Look up "voluntary resorts" on the Starwood board for a glimpse into this world. Or look up Sheraton Desert Oasis, Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Sheraton Vistana Resort and Westin Princeville (among others) on ebay to see what resale prices will look like.

So that's my conspiracy theory of the week. Bookmark this post and let's revisit in 5 years.


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## icydog

DanCali said:


> Most people are averse to selling at a loss... They would rather hang on to their dear timeshare even as resale prices crater. Even if it is more logical financially to sell today, rent for 2 years, and possibly buy it back in two years for much less if they like it so much. Making the argument that if fees go up you can just dump your timeshare and go to Hilton is easier said than done. Even the biggest opponents of the points system haven't said they will sell out.
> 
> Moreover, this could get worse.
> 
> The way the rules stand today you can sell an enrolled unit and the new owner can join for a $2K-5K fee (I believe it's $800 per 1000 points, 2K minimum). Despite the cost, this is an obvious backdoor into the system and beats buying 5000 points for $45K+.
> 
> At some point (probably after most have given up their voting rights) Marriott can/will shut the door on this by disallowing any resale into the system and then we'll all be left in a points system, without the ability to vote our resort out of the system, ever increasing MFs, and "assets" almost worthless on the resale market. Look up "voluntary resorts" on the Starwood board for a glimpse into this world. Or look up Sheraton Desert Oasis, Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Sheraton Vistana Resort and Westin Princeville (among others) on ebay to see what resale prices will look like.
> 
> So that's my conspiracy theory of the week. Bookmark this post and let's revisit in 5 years.



That's quite a theory. Is it the one that goes after "the sky is falling" theory. I do not agree with the gloom and doom theory you propose we accept. I think that Marriott is not putting this whole thing together to adversely impact the value of our weeks. I think the converse is true. I believe our weeks in the Club Point program will be enhanced in value due to the flexibility of the program. I love the idea of traveling during the weekdays thereby leaving more points on the table for future travel. 

The program as Marriott has outlined it is VERY similar to DVC's. I have complete confidence that it will work as well as DVCs and I have been using that point system for 18 years. I know it is NOT perfect but it is good enough to be of value to me. I don't believe the Sky is actually going to fall or that Marriott will allow its timeshares to flounder in a sea of unkept promises. I cannot be that pessimistic, and I hope that when I revisit your post in 5 years, that I will be vacationing like I always have-- in the lap of luxury-- at a Marriott Resort.


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## DanCali

icydog said:


> That's quite a theory.



Yes, it is



icydog said:


> I think that Marriott is not putting this whole thing together to adversely impact the value of our weeks.



No, they are putting it to together to make money. But charging each new owner $2K-$5K to join inevitably hurts resale values




icydog said:


> I think the converse is true. I believe our weeks in the Club Point program will be enhanced in value due to the flexibility of the program. I love the idea of traveling during the weekdays thereby leaving more points on the table for future travel.



That may be true, especially for multiple week owners. And even if my theory is true and they disallow any resale into the program sometime in the future you can continue to enjoy all that flexibility as long as you own. That doesn't change the reality that if they do what I said, resale values will crash. It will only affect you if and when you sell.

Someone can pay Starwood $55K to buy at Westin Princeville and they get a lot of Flexibility. Internal trades, hotel points, a wonderful resort etc. And as long as they own it and pay MFs they keep that flexibility. It's all great but when resale buyers cannot do any internal trades and can only use or trade via II, that resort is worth 95% less (maybe 98% less, if you think this auction is representative) on the resale market.

Nobody saw the "skimming" coming... so don't think this can't happen. I'm not saying it will, but if Marriott loses sales because everyone figures out they can pay 20% of their prices by buying enrolled units resale, they will close that loophole. And when they do, resale will be dead because II trading will be undesirable by them after we all tout the new system's flexibility.


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## Y-ASK

SueDonJ said:


> I find it very difficult to believe that Marriott has managed to develop the only timeshare system based on points in which the point totals do not have to correlate to the intervals available at each resort.  The disclosures for the program that had to be filed to get this thing off the ground would require that correlation, and it wouldn't pass licensing restrictions without that.  Marriott can do what other timeshare systems have done, which is to re-allocate points across intervals in response to demand, but Marriott cannot simply increase across the board every point requirement.  Marriott can also increase point values as each new resort, if any, is rolled out, but that's also not the steady points inflation that you're insinuating.
> 
> Re-allocation and higher point values for newer resorts were included in that speculation thread and explained completely by folks familiar with point systems.  I didn't see any of those folks support the contention of points inflation like you're suggesting here.  Why don't you find the language in the available disclosures at your my-vacationclub.com page and post the link here for us to verify it?



This is my thought as well.  I don't think it's legal to raise the number of points needed to stay at any existing resort across the board.  The total number of points would always stay the same.  They may increase the number pf points needed to stay during a July 4th week but they will have to reduce the exact number of points from a different week within the same resort.  Or course new resorts are exempt from this until their weeks are put into the system.  They can increase the points needed on new resorts to whatever they want but once they are in the system the totals remain the same across the board.

Y-ASK


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## tombo

icydog said:


> The program as Marriott has outlined it is VERY similar to DVC's. I have complete confidence that it will work as well as DVCs and I have been using that point system for 18 years. .



Great to know it is working well at DVC. How does DVC divide inventory between points and weeks owners? Did DVC points resale values fall when DVC introduced weeks? Does DVC place all developer inventory into their new weeks program, or split it evenly between points and weeks? Does DVC raid points inventory from RCI to place into weeks inventory to help sell more weeks? Is it working out well having two different groups fighting for inventory that used to be all points? Are you glad that you bought DVC points but DVC decided instead to sell weeks and charge you to convert? Did you buy DVC because you liked points but feel forced to convert to weeks to keep access to DVC inventory? Does DVC only give you 6 days when you deposit a weeks wrth of points into the weeks inventory to cover their expenses and call it "breakage"? Since DVC has been using points for 18 years did you feel that it was time for them to change to weeks rather than sticking with what you purchased and liked?

Oh yeah, DVC sold everyone points and didn't change the program that everyone purchased. The situation at marriott and DVC is not similar.


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## tombo

Y-ASK said:


> This is my thought as well.  I don't think it's legal to raise the number of points needed to stay at any existing resort across the board.  The total number of points would always stay the same.  They may increase the number pf points needed to stay during a July 4th week but they will have to reduce the exact number of points from a different week within the same resort.  Or course new resorts are exempt from this until their weeks are put into the system.  They can increase the points needed on new resorts to whatever they want but once they are in the system the totals remain the same across the board.
> 
> Y-ASK



Exactly. Raise points needed to reserve the weeks people actually want to reserve, and decrease the points required for off weeks. There are a lot more shoulder weeks per year than prime weeks (at most resorts), so large increases for prime weeks can easily be acheived while only decreasing shoulder weeks points levels slightly. You won't see a huge decrease in points required for bad weeks no one wants, but the increases for the most desired weeks can skyrocket while leaving the total number of points in the Trust the same. Please don't underestmate the legions of lawyers at Marriott. If we can think it up,they have already done a study on it. Of course in addition as you said  points required for new resorts, those can be whatever marriott feels the market will bear.


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## hipslo

hipslo said:


> Anyone have any thoughts whether this would apply in the same way as it currently does in weeks, across DIFFERENT properties?
> 
> For example, would it be feasible for a premier plus owner to reserve a couple of days at a low point cost resort 13 months in advance of the first check in day, and then, without any gap in days, make a further reservation at the desired "target" resort for the desired high demand week, thus getting the points owner a jump of a couple of days over other points owners for the prime week at the prime resort, without having to burn the points required to make the reservation at the desired resort?
> 
> Or would these sorts of reservations all need to be made at the SAME resort?
> 
> I have looked at the legal docs and website descriptions on this issue and can't seem to find any guidance either way.



As an update, I was told over the phone today, by someone who at least seemed to know her stuff, that it does in fact work this way, that so long as reservations are for consecutive days, you can string them across different resorts and get into inventory at the desired resort earlier than 13 months in this manner, with premiere plus status.

On another front, if you have premiere plus status, even if you dont deposit any of your weeks for 2011, she told me that you can take advantage of the premiere plus status when making a reservation with the 800 bonus points, which is a nice benefit.


----------



## scrapngen

csalter2 said:


> I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. *You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort.* You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. *You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. * In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.
> 
> For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10  or 12 months out.





DanCali said:


> Can you get a summer Maui, Kauiai, or even a summer NCV with your 2BR Platinum Koolina? (I believe the answer is no)
> 
> That's the point he was making... The vast majority woul agree that a 2BR Platinum Hawaii is like for like with either of those...



This is indeed the point I am making, thanks for the succinct explanation, Dan.  AND while I do not need additional points to stay at my home resort during my Platinum Plus season as I will always be able to reserved it regardless of 12/13 month rules due to it being a fixed week, (I am much better off than most float owners due to this)  I DO need additional points to stay almost all weeks at my home resort in Platinum season!!!! So I paid a premium to Marriott for my Platinum Plus week and it is valued  the same as a Platinum week at my home resort and cannot even get many of those weeks, as it is at the lower end of the values.  This is the same situation that occurred with some who paid a premium for Ocean View property yet are getting allocated the same points as those who paid a lot less for a lesser view.  But Marriott obviously values those weeks as they will charge other points people a LOT more to access them. Not fair or necessary. They sold me a special week at a premium saying it had more value, and they STILL agree that it has more value based on the points it will take to reserve there, but when I turn it in for points, I am now - AT MY HOME RESORT (apples to apples) getting a return that is equivalent to a lesser season. This isn't reallocating the season to make it relate to the real rental values, this is taking away my value that I paid a premium for - and giving me far less, yet still reaping that premium from the person who now uses those days. It also applies to those who are given a lower value than ANY of the weeks in their season. These are all obvious, concrete examples of Marriott devaluing a purchase - this is not even skimming! 

*I wish people would stop saying that we don't have to pay additional points to stay at our own resort as we can just reserve as normal*. Yes, I personally can reserve my fixed week and be assured of that date. Normal will not be the same, though, for owners of one floating week anymore. Their chances of getting reasonable weeks at their home resorts went way down now that anyone with enough points can trade in before them and also break up prime weeks so that no week owner can now get it. Sure there may be separate buckets, so they might still get a decent week at home resort. (we don't really know that but let's assume that will be the case.) We do know that Marriott can take out of II, so trading will definitely no longer be normal!! Yes, some speculation about just how bad it will be, but it seems pretty obvious to me that more than half are losers in this new game, whether or not they choose to participate. And it could have been different had Marriott not been so greedy with their points. Maybe the people here who do not go to points are just a drip in the bucket, so it doesn't matter. And maybe the ill will they have generated with these unfair allocations is also just some people here and there, but don't you think that hurting some of their owners who paid big bucks for specific views, or specific weeks was a bad move on their part???


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Exactly. Raise points needed to reserve the weeks people actually want to reserve, and decrease the points required for off weeks. There are a lot more off weeks per year than prime weeks (at most resorts), so large increases for prime weeks can easily be acheived while only decreasing shoulder weeks points levels slightly. You won't see a huge decrease in points required for bad weeks no one wants, but the increases for the most desired weeks can skyrocket while leaving the total number of points in the Trust the same. Please don't underestmate the legions of lawyers at Marriott. If we can think it up,they have already done a study on it. Of course in addition as you said  points required for new resorts, those can be whatever marriott feels the market will bear.



The usage calendar is already pretty well allocated for demand; almost every resort's Season calendars have been redone in the Points system to reflect historical demand.  At some resorts it's a minor adjustment, at others it's been adjusted drastically - as was speculated - because the Season designations didn't follow demand at all.  Sure we can expect some re-allocation over time but even now the speculation about how demand will affect this system's success is all over the place.  It doesn't matter how loudly or how much one or two or eighteen people scream about demand expectations - we won't know until time has passed.

But all of that has nothing to do with the fact that you are insinuating that each and every point value can and will be increased by Marriott to the point where any owner who enrolls today will not get the same usage value at the same resorts as exist today.  That's simply not true.  We all understand that certain weeks may become more or less valuable as re-allocations are done, but our points will get us the same usage in some fashion at the existing resorts.  And just like with the MVCI system that existed last week, availability will be a major factor in whether or not an owner chooses to add to his portfolio in order to take advantage of any priority reservation period.


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## Y-ASK

tombo said:


> Exactly. Raise points needed to reserve the weeks people actually want to reserve, and decrease the points required for off weeks. There are a lot more off weeks per year than prime weeks (at most resorts), so large increases for prime weeks can easily be acheived while only decreasing shoulder weeks points levels slightly. You won't see a huge decrease in points required for bad weeks no one wants, but the increases for the most desired weeks can skyrocket while leaving the total number of points in the Trust the same. Please don't underestmate the legions of lawyers at Marriott. If we can think it up,they have already done a study on it. Of course in addition as you said  points required for new resorts, those can be whatever marriott feels the market will bear.


Yeah but there's a kind of "points mentality" that starts to take over when you start dealing with only points.  It's a different mind set than one that is use to dealing with weeks only.  You start to look at how far you can make your points go and not necessarily just at prime weeks alone.  It really is a different mindset and you might surprise yourself by being able to stay longer or stay at more resorts than just your home resort.

The only problem I have with the system is that there is no home resort priority booking window.  Even if the window is only one week, the owner of the resort should be able to reserve at their home resort (no where else) during that one week window and no other resort owner would be able to.

Y-ASK


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## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> As an update, I was told over the phone today, by someone who at least seemed to know her stuff, that it does in fact work this way, that so long as reservations are for consecutive days, you can string them across different resorts and get into inventory at the desired resort earlier than 13 months in this manner, with premiere plus status.
> 
> On another front, if you have premiere plus status, even if you dont deposit any of your weeks for 2011, she told me that you can take advantage of the premiere plus status when making a reservation with the 800 bonus points, which is a nice benefit.



Good to know, thanks.  For the record, I think I'd be one of the people Y-ASK is talking about who would try to stretch points as far as they'd go, so it's a pretty sure bet that I won't be one of the people you talked about in your other post who would waste points in order to get a jump on a reservation.


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## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Good to know, thanks.  For the record, I think I'd be one of the people Y-ASK is talking about who would try to stretch points as far as they'd go, so it's a pretty sure bet that I won't be one of the people you talked about in your other post who would waste points in order to get a jump on a reservation.



The point cost at some places that would work well to do this with are REALLY cheap...

For me, with my low mf per point cost, potentially as low as $11 per day....


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## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> The point cost at some places that would work well to do this with are REALLY cheap...



Haha.  Nope, Marriott's not getting their grubby little paws on any points that I can use.  :hysterical:


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## scrapngen

hipslo said:


> As an update, I was told over the phone today, by someone who at least seemed to know her stuff, that it does in fact work this way, that so long as reservations are for consecutive days, you can string them across different resorts and get into inventory at the desired resort earlier than 13 months in this manner, with premiere plus status.
> 
> On another front, if you have premiere plus status, even if you dont deposit any of your weeks for 2011, she told me that you can take advantage of the premiere plus status when making a reservation with the 800 bonus points, which is a nice benefit.



That seems like the same loophole that current users have been using to string reservations ahead to get to July 4th etc with several weeks fronting it that they later trade/use/rent. But this will make it even easier for those Premier Plus users to swiss cheese a lot of resorts at once to get prime dates for use or rent. I'd really be working the numbers to see how I could stay a few days here or there ahead of the prime dates I want so I'd always get all that I want at a reasonable point usage. Of course, I wouldn't really do that much, as it would work better for those who can drive to several different resorts for short stays. Actually, I think HI resorts might also find that good weeks get taken by short stays due to people being able to island hop.  Life has changed for sure!


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## 5infam

*Question for those that are converting to points!!!*

I have been following this thread since the beginning and posted a few times here and there, more in an effort to figure things out than to fight with anyone. However, I do find the posts from those that will be going or have already bought into points interesting (Sue, Wuv Pooh, etc.) as at least we are getting both sides of the argument, and I tend to be suspicious and lend my thinking towards not trusting this new system (which is in line with all the other posters). So with that, here is what I have and how I use it - and I am interested to see what the points supporters have to say in regards to it being a worthwile endeavour to join points or not - *if they were me*. Of course, those that disagree with points should chime in and well. Here goes:

1. I own 1 week every year at Maui Ocean Club, mtn/grdn view, that I purchased on the resale market. Trade in value for points is 3,100. It will take 3,550 points to get a summer week in the same view/unit, which is the only time I go now.

2.  When I bought, I planned on going to Maui every year and using it, with the occassional trade. However, air fare has gone nuts, and I have 3 kids, so air for 5 people has gotten crazy. So, for the past several years, I have traded my Maui week into II, for the identical week the following year - waited to get my confirmation which was always 12 months out (so clearly I was getting priority in the trade), and receiving an AC for my trouble, which I have used in flex period for some nice things. Then, I would book my regular week connecting to the trade and would stay for 2 weeks; thus maximizing my air costs. Going to any Hawaii resorts for 1 to 3 or 4 days is not a good option for me as the cost for air is not cheap.

3.  My fees are my II membership, which I pay for the 5 year plan; and also the fee to exchange Marriott to Marriott, which I pay every other year. I have a 1bdr unit, so no lock off fees for me. Joining points costs me $1,495 - one time, plus $165 per year. I think I may save money on my current plan by just paying II, but I can't remember what my II 5 year fees are, so I need help with that, and figuring at what point I break even on the $1,495 - if at all?

4.  I also made a decision a few years back to not go to Hawaii, due to costs, and trade my 1bdr to Newport for a 2bdr in the summer - which I got through II, and also got an AC for doing so. It appears with points, that direct exchange would never happen again. I also traded my 2010 4th of July week into II as a deposit first (got an AC as well), in 2009 - and requested a summer week in 2011 so I can go 2 weeks - so II has my 2010 week now, and I am waiting on the request to be fulfilled. 

5.  I like points programs, as I own DVC - but this is different as it appears there are uncertaintees as to where II can pull their inventory, and I dread over the fact that there is no Home Resort priority in all of this. In the Marriott FAQ, I believe it states something like the availability can come from trades into points and the Marriott Rewards exchanges, but also from II - so unless they put in writing that they will not take any II exchange whether it comes in from a points participant or not; then I must assume that they can take whatever they want - as their FAQ language is vague - so I have to assume the worst to protect myself, right? This is my biggest concern where I may have to join. If Marriott can do this, then it is not business as usual for weeks owners who trade weeks for weeks, especially for people like me who trade back into their own resort, and who now with II, get top priority in the exchange. It appears that Marriott can raid II for points people, or any other purpose, and it is not clear that I will get my same priority that I have now - which by the way, is what sold me on Marriott to begin with. 

This is how it breaks down for me and my family. Any advice on the Positive/Negative side would be greatly appreciated. I already know about the "skim" vs. the "no-skim" arguments, and comparing Marriott to Enron, BP and Frito Lay, etc. However, I am looking for you smart Tuggers to help me make a solid financial decision; which is how I see this at the end of the day.

Thanks in advance!!!   

Frank


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## SueDonJ

scrapngen said:


> That seems like the same loophole that current users have been using to string reservations ahead to get to July 4th etc with several weeks fronting it that they later trade/use/rent. But this will make it even easier for those Premier Plus users to swiss cheese a lot of resorts at once to get prime dates for use or rent. I'd really be working the numbers to see how I could stay a few days here or there ahead of the prime dates I want so I'd always get all that I want at a reasonable point usage. Of course, I wouldn't really do that much, as it would work better for those who can drive to several different resorts for short stays. Actually, I think HI resorts might also find that good weeks get taken by short stays due to people being able to island hop.  Life has changed for sure!



Now this way I would definitely take advantage of, stringing together days I'd actually use.  5 days each at 3 different Hilton Head resorts and maybe a couple days tacked on at Myrtle Beach would be nice ....

Hmmm.  This brings up a question.  What about the lists that some resorts have published for unit placement?  Both my resorts have them and include them with the GM's annual letter.  Where do Destination Club folks fit on those lists?  Do Enrolled keep their home resort placement?  Where and how will new DC owners be on the list?


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## winger

ArtsieAng said:


> Oh yea. I spoke with a rep, and a "point specialist," yesterday, and they both suggested that I buy more points.
> 
> Very nice........I buy 2 weeks directly from Marriott, and now can not exchange back in to either of them unless I pay an additional $9,200, and $400 more in maintenance fees.
> ...



sorry if already answered, I am still catching up.

If you want to reserve your week in your season, you do NOT need to convert to points, then use the points to reserve back in.  Yes, although this method is doable, it's the stupid way (b/c you then likely need MORE points).

Rather then above method, you just call owner svcs and book your week 13 month in advance (since you have 2 weeks). NOTHING to do with points, at all.

DONE.


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## mauiwowie

I'm new to this group being brought in by the latest development at MVC.  I can't condemn this new system completely as it does bring some new flexibilty, it seems to do so at a hefty price for those of us who are not retired and/or completely flexible in our time schedule.

I own one week floating 2bd LO at MOC Lahaina Tower.  We bought mainly to use at the resort and bought from Marriott because we were naive and my husband really wanted a nice, new resort on the beachwalk.  When we purchased we understood our odds of getting a prime week at our resort and we were willing to accept those odds.  Now with the new system, it seems that our odds will be changed from what is written in our deed, if not illegally, at least practically.  I'm not a gambler, because I know that the house has the advantage, but in this case I mistakenly thought that the odds wouldn't change since there are a fixed number of units and ownership intervals.  I guess I was wrong. 

 As I understand it, it is completely within Marriott's control to assign which weeks are assigned to corresponding points, thereby leaving me with potentially no chance of getting a prime week.  I understand that with a floating week, I was not guaranteed to get any specific week, but at least I knew the odds.  For example, if there are 30 intervals available and 50 weeks sold, I was potentially competing against 1499 other owners for any particular week and since 50% of those unit could go to multiple week owners, we were in essence competing for 15 units.  Not great odds, but at least they were obvious.  Now that anyone who has 6500+ points can make a reservation for that week 13 months in advance, there's the potential that someone who doesn't own at the resort can get a week at my resort, before I even have a shot at making a reservation (@12 months out).  If Marriott reserves all of the 4th of July weeks for the benefit of high points purchasers, then theorhetically, there may be no units available when it's my day to book.  Please someone correct me if this assumption is wrong and I'm just being paranoid 
Why is it that all other points programs that I've toured give a twelve month booking window to owners at the resort and restricts traders to a seven month window and Marriott is not offering this protection?

To those people who don't understand why the new system seems unfair, it is especially unfair to those of us that were sold lock-offs being told that we could get two weeks of travel for any week in our season.  Under the II system, I at least knew that I had priority over any other non-Maui owners to trade back for another week at my resort, so if I was not able to get the two units booking directly through Marriott reservations, I had some confidence that I would be high on the list to get it from II (of course nothing was guaranteed) and my trade would not cost me a premium beyond the $109 exchange fee.  This was a major selling point for us and was confirmed in writing in the II terms and conditions.  

But now that Marriott has the right to take weeks from Interval, my chance of getting that week is highly questionable.  Even if I still have the same priority through II, if Marriott has the right to draw II inventory, then there's nothing in there for me to get.  It may be legal for Marriott to take those weeks from II and give them to a non-owner who purchases lots of points, but it surely was deceptive of Marriott to tell us that we would have priority by paying a very steep premium to own in Maui, and now having effectively eliminated that priority.  Can someone clarify this too, if I'm not understanding correctly?

FYI, post June 20, 2010 only resale units sold through Marriott will be eligible for the points program.  At least DVC lets you sell your own points, without them taking a cut of the already depreciated value!


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## rsackett

mauiwowie said:


> ...When we purchased we understood our odds of getting a prime week at our resort and we were willing to accept those odds.  Now with the new system, it seems that our odds will be changed from what is written in our deed, if not illegally, at least practically.  I'm not a gambler, because I know that the house has the advantage, but in this case I mistakenly thought that the odds wouldn't change since there are a fixed number of units and ownership intervals.  I guess I was wrong.
> 
> As I understand it, it is completely within Marriott's control to assign which weeks are assigned to corresponding points, thereby leaving me with potentially no chance of getting a prime week.  I understand that with a floating week, I was not guaranteed to get any specific week, but at least I knew the odds.  For example, if there are 30 intervals available and 50 weeks sold, I was potentially competing against 1499 other owners for any particular week and since 50% of those unit could go to multiple week owners, we were in essence competing for 15 units.  Not great odds, but at least they were obvious.  Now that anyone who has 6500+ points can make a reservation for that week 13 months in advance, there's the potential that someone who doesn't own at the resort can get a week at my resort, before I even have a shot at making a reservation (@12 months out).  If Marriott reserves all of the 4th of July weeks for the benefit of high points purchasers, then theorhetically, there may be no units available when it's my day to book.  Please someone correct me if this assumption is wrong and I'm just being paranoid
> Why is it that all other points programs that I've toured give a twelve month booking window to owners at the resort and restricts traders to a seven month window and Marriott is not offering this protection?
> 
> To those people who don't understand why the new system seems unfair, it is especially unfair to those of us that were sold lock-offs being told that we could get two weeks of travel for any week in our season.  Under the II system, I at least knew that I had priority over any other non-Maui owners to trade back for another week at my resort, so if I was not able to get the two units booking directly through Marriott reservations, I had some confidence that I would be high on the list to get it from II (of course nothing was guaranteed) and my trade would not cost me a premium beyond the $109 exchange fee.  This was a major selling point for us and was confirmed in writing in the II terms and conditions.
> 
> But now that Marriott has the right to take weeks from Interval, my chance of getting that week is highly questionable.  Even if I still have the same priority through II, if Marriott has the right to draw II inventory, then there's nothing in there for me to get.  It may be legal for Marriott to take those weeks from II and give them to a non-owner who purchases lots of points, but it surely was deceptive of Marriott to tell us that we would have priority by paying a very steep premium to own in Maui, and now having effectively eliminated that priority.  Can someone clarify this too, if I'm not understanding correctly?
> 
> *FYI, post June 20, 2010 only resale units sold through Marriott will be eligible for the points program.  At least DVC lets you sell your own points, without them taking a cut of the already depreciated value*!




Welcome to TUG!

From your post I can tell that I like you already!   

Ray


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## SueDonJ

5infam said:


> ... This is how it breaks down for me and my family. Any advice on the Positive/Negative side would be greatly appreciated. I already know about the "skim" vs. the "no-skim" arguments, and comparing Marriott to Enron, BP and Frito Lay, etc. However, I am looking for you smart Tuggers to help me make a solid financial decision; which is how I see this at the end of the day.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!
> 
> Frank



Frank, right off you and I begin with a different perspective - you want a solid financial decision and I want the best usage possible from timeshares.  But I'll give it a go anyway and hopefully you'll get a nice mix to help you figure it out for yourself.

Your usage currently is with II exchanges.  If you don't enroll you can continue to use II, but I agree with you and the others who are speculating that Marriott can and will pull weeks inventory from II to satisfy points requests.  That's a major concern, and I think much more so for you and every other owner who have to consider their young kids' school schedules.  (I'm guessing?)  Availability will be an issue no matter what you do if your vacations fall during high-demand times.

I'm sure it's not the ideal situation, especially financially, but with II exchanges so questionable and home resort usage not being ideal for you now, I'd choose points if I was in your shoes.  The one thing you have going for you is that a Maui week gives you more points than most single-week owners who will be enrolling.  And I know, that's not saying much.  But you could play with the points charts and try to get one or two 5-day weekday stays in a resort out west (closer to home I'm assuming, what with Hawaii as your home resort?)  You would also be able to bank/borrow if your heart is set on something that requires more points than you own, although I realize that limits your points much more than they already are.

One thing I am really hoping for is access to II Getaway inventory in the points system. Some of us have been told yes, others have been told no, who knows at this point?  But that's another way to possibly stretch your vacation options.

I hope this helps and I wish I could be more positive for you.  For the record (before somebody calls me a Marriott apologist again  ) if you said that you just want to stay at your home resort, I would not suggest enrolling for you.  The old system definitely gets the advantage for usage of single weeks at the home resorts.

Good luck deciding!     You have a lot of time - the 12/31/10 deadline is for this enrollment price and this 800-point incentive, but you can still enroll after that.


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## 5infam

Thanks Sue. I am not sure we have different perspectives, as I want to get the most out of my vacations as well - but I add the financial part into it as it is $1,495, plus annual fees, and that is a good sized financial commitment. 

I understand what you are saying about splitting up weeks near home if need be using points, but that is more of a rare occassion and I really want to use my home resort (Hawaii) by trading back in most times, and it sounds like we have the same concern that doing so maybe limited. I own DVC, and love my points and use my Boardwalk Villas points to stay near my home at Disneyland on occassion, so I get that idea. So with that, you are suggesting that I buy into points, correct? My question is, since I want to simply trade back into my own resort most of the time, so I can stay 2 weeks - how does joining points help me accomplish that?

Again, not picking fights, and not accusing anyone of anything...just asking so I understand perspectives.

Thanks!!


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## Slakk

tombo said:


> Great to know it is working well at DVC. How does DVC divide inventory between points and weeks owners? Did DVC points resale values fall when DVC introduced weeks? Does DVC place all developer inventory into their new weeks program, or split it evenly between points and weeks? Does DVC raid points inventory from RCI to place into weeks inventory to help sell more weeks? Is it working out well having two different groups fighting for inventory that used to be all points? Are you glad that you bought DVC points but DVC decided instead to sell weeks and charge you to convert? Did you buy DVC because you liked points but feel forced to convert to weeks to keep access to DVC inventory? Does DVC only give you 6 days when you deposit a weeks wrth of points into the weeks inventory to cover their expenses and call it "breakage"? Since DVC has been using points for 18 years did you feel that it was time for them to change to weeks rather than sticking with what you purchased and liked?
> 
> Oh yeah, DVC sold everyone points and didn't change the program that everyone purchased. The situation at marriott and DVC is not similar.



I have been a DVCmember for years and I don't find it anything like DVC.  First DVC points are tied to a resort.  At the 11 month mark people withe points at that resort can make reservations.  At the 7 month mark EVRYONE can reserve at ANY resort (what is left over).

Some resort stays are cheaper than others but if you bought enough points to stay in a 2BR Savannah view at Animal Kingdom you may not have enough to stay in a 2 BR Magic Kingdom View at Bay Lake Tower, however your points do not diminish when you try and move out of your home resort.

Meaning I don't have 150 HHI points but that turns into 125 when I want to stay somewhere else.  Honestly with DVC points there is no real value for the most part to trade in RCI (I know some people do but it is not a good use of points), you use DVC points for DVC stays.

I do know this if DVC tried to pull this it would not be this polite.  People would riot.


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## SueDonJ

5infam said:


> Thanks Sue. I am not sure we have different perspectives, as I want to get the most out of my vacations as well - but I add the financial part into it as it is $1,495, plus annual fees, and that is a good sized financial commitment.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about splitting up weeks near home if need be using points, but that is more of a rare occassion and I really want to use my home resort (Hawaii) by trading back in most times, and it sounds like we have the same concern that doing so maybe limited. I own DVC, and love my points and use my Boardwalk Villas points to stay near my home at Disneyland on occassion, so I get that idea. So with that, you are suggesting that I buy into points, correct? My question is, since I want to simply trade back into my own resort most of the time, so I can stay 2 weeks - how does joining points help me accomplish that?
> 
> Again, not picking fights, and not accusing anyone of anything...just asking so I understand perspectives.
> 
> Thanks!!



I am suggesting points, yes, because I wouldn't want to rely on II working the same way as it has in the past for you.  MOC summer weeks are high demand, aren't they?  There's a good possibility that those deposits will be scooped for points exchange requests which would severely affect your typical usage of trading back in.  If you enroll in points you won't be able to to do your every-other-year two-week trip at your home resort, that's for sure, but I'm not sure that you can count on it continuing either if you don't enroll.  At least if you do enroll, you open up possibilities for new vacation ideas.  If you don't enroll and what we're expecting with II happens, what will you do with your one MOC week?  (If the answer to that is reserve it like usual and go every year, then enrolling isn't what you should do.)

I sure do hope somebody else comes in here to answer your questions, too.  It's important to get a few different perspectives when you have doubts or concerns.

And don't worry, Frank, we don't all fight with everyone all of the time.     Ask away, and hopefully we can help you figure out what's best for you.


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## DanCali

5infam said:


> Thanks Sue. I am not sure we have different perspectives, as I want to get the most out of my vacations as well - but I add the financial part into it as it is $1,495, plus annual fees, and that is a good sized financial commitment.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about splitting up weeks near home if need be using points, but that is more of a rare occassion and I really want to use my home resort (Hawaii) by trading back in most times, and it sounds like we have the same concern that doing so maybe limited. I own DVC, and love my points and use my Boardwalk Villas points to stay near my home at Disneyland on occassion, so I get that idea. So with that, you are suggesting that I buy into points, correct? My question is, since I want to simply trade back into my own resort most of the time, so I can stay 2 weeks - how does joining points help me accomplish that?
> 
> Again, not picking fights, and not accusing anyone of anything...just asking so I understand perspectives.
> 
> Thanks!!



option 1) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, rent it out, then rent two weeks in smaller units from other owners.

option 2) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, deposit in II, and do a 2 for 1 trade.

option 3) Sell your MOC, but a Westin Kaanapali resale with 148K Starwood Options, then call with home resort priority up to 8 months ahead and book a 1BR for 81K Options and a studio for 67K options.

The Marriott points system won't help your cause with any of these options.


----------



## SueDonJ

Slakk said:


> I have been a DVCmember for years and I don't find it anything like DVC.  First DVC points are tied to a resort.  At the 11 month mark people withe points at that resort can make reservations.  At the 7 month mark EVRYONE can reserve at ANY resort (what is left over).
> 
> Some resort stays are cheaper than others but if you bought enough points to stay in a 2BR Savannah view at Animal Kingdom you may not have enough to stay in a 2 BR Magic Kingdom View at Bay Lake Tower, however your points do not diminish when you try and move out of your home resort.
> 
> Meaning I don't have 150 HHI points but that turns into 125 when I want to stay somewhere else.  Honestly with DVC points there is no real value for the most part to trade in RCI (I know some people do but it is not a good use of points), you use DVC points for DVC stays.



I'm surprised.  I see a lot of similarity at least with the points charts - being able to choose the number of days, the resort, the view ... that flexibility is my favorite thing about DVC.  If Don loved Disney the way I do, and if DVC had resorts at as many places as Marriott, that's what we would have bought.

In a sense, x amount of points at one DVC resort does turn into y at another, because the points charts are different at every resort.  That is a diminished value of a sort - you cannot book the same size room for the same week at different resorts and expect to pay the same points.  I do understand what you're saying about your 150 OKW points not turning into 125 BCV points automatically, but your 150 OKW points won't get you the same villa size and length of stay for the same dates at BCV as you would get at OKW.

It's like Tombo says - DVC doesn't have these issues because DVC didn't roll out a points option on top of a weeks system.  Who knows how they would have done it if they had?  Considering that reports are it's a DVC braintrust behind this whole design, I'd guess chances are good that if DVC had to do what Marriott's had to do to get into points, it would look very similar.



Slakk said:


> I do know this if DVC tried to pull this it would not be this polite.  People would riot.



The disboards would probably explode.    I once saw an 18-page thread over there about whether or not Cast Members who didn't say "Welcome Home" to members, or did say it to non-members, at check-in should be formally reprimanded.  It would take a lot less than this for DVC folks to riot.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> But all of that has nothing to do with the fact that you are insinuating that each and every point value can and will be increased by Marriott to the point where any owner who enrolls today will not get the same usage value at the same resorts as exist today.  That's simply not true.  We all understand that certain weeks may become more or less valuable as re-allocations are done, but our points will get us the same usage in some fashion at the existing resorts.  .



Really? Did Marriott put that in writing or did your sales rep tell you this? If you feel or assume that you are going to the same usage at existing resorts for your points then I am sorry to say this, but you need to read the contract.  They do NOT guarantee that your points will get any usage simlar to what they get when you buy them. Please go by the contract you so love to defend. The contract says Marriott can change point values at any time for any reason, and as you are so fond of saying, that is all Marriott promised you. So yes like rewards points they can and will devalue them over time, it is written in the contract.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Really? Did Marriott put that in writing or did your sales rep tell you this? If you feel or assume that you are going to the same usage at existing resorts for your points then I am sorry to say this, but you need to read the contract.  They do NOT guarantee that your points will get any usage simlar to what they get when you buy them. Please go by the contract you so love to defend. The contract says Marriott can change point values at any time for any reason, and as you are so fond of saying, that is all Marriott promised you. So yes like rewards points they can and will devalue them over time, it is written in the contract.



I see you didn't find the language.  Or did you forget to put the link here?

They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change.  Yep, it's right there on the chart itself.  But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating.  They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar.  They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> I see you didn't find the language.  Or did you forget to put the link here?
> 
> They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change.  Yep, it's right there on the chart itself.  But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating.  They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar.  They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.



Did you find that in writing. If dealing with Marriott has taught me anything it is no matter what you are told or promised, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't count.


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## 5infam

SueDonJ said:


> I am suggesting points, yes, because I wouldn't want to rely on II working the same way as it has in the past for you.  MOC summer weeks are high demand, aren't they?  There's a good possibility that those deposits will be scooped for points exchange requests which would severely affect your typical usage of trading back in.  If you enroll in points you won't be able to to do your every-other-year two-week trip at your home resort, that's for sure, but I'm not sure that you can count on it continuing either if you don't enroll.  At least if you do enroll, you open up possibilities for new vacation ideas.  If you don't enroll and what we're expecting with II happens, what will you do with your one MOC week?  (If the answer to that is reserve it like usual and go every year, then enrolling isn't what you should do.)
> 
> I sure do hope somebody else comes in here to answer your questions, too.  It's important to get a few different perspectives when you have doubts or concerns.
> 
> And don't worry, Frank, we don't all fight with everyone all of the time.     Ask away, and hopefully we can help you figure out what's best for you.



Thanks for trying Sue, I do appreciate you taking the time to post.

I was hoping to get some clarity on my specific situation, but it does not look like the logic of the points proponents works for me; so far anyway. Most of you seem to have multiple weeks, so you can at least save fees with the lock offs, and exchanges and such. Me, with my 1 week, wanting to trade in for my exact same week in my same resort, with some sort of home resort priority appears to be gone whether I join points or not. So in essence, I just have to sit on the sidelines and wait and see if Marriott clarifies things in writing or not before the deadline to join.

I could see where if I sold my timeshare later, and I had the points option, that the buyer could join points for like $2,000 - so that MAY be a plus down the road, but who knows. 

I am starting to think otherwise though. I bought resale knowing I could not get Marriott Rewards Points. I did the math, and for what I pay in maintenance fees in Hawaii, it did not make sense to trade my week in for points, ever. So I saved 50% of retail and bought resale and have been happy. Now, let's say I pay $1,495 and the annual fee of $165, and the points program deteriorates even further like the rewards program - meaning I will get the same number of points, but the point costs to stay anywhere goes up and up. At some point, I will never trade in for points, and thus I wasted the $1,495 and membership dues. I am really starting to think that even right now, I would not trade in for points due to the defecit in points received vs. cost of like week. So, in essence, I would just be buying in to have an option I would probably never use - but may or may not need based on how Marriott decides to play with the system and the unknown of how they can play with the system? 

I guess I will sit on the sidelines further until some smarter Tugger than me figures out what all this *REALLY* means.


----------



## catharsis

*Maintenance fees.*

Some of the 'marriott apologists' (please note the quotes) have suggested that Marriott have increased costs as a result of increased cleaning etc. and hence HAVE to 'skim' points to make up for this 'cost' - which is I believe a misreading of the facts.

Could someone answer a couple of questions for me please? (probably simplest if one explains based upon the case of any of the fully-sold-out resorts)

1. Do the existing owners pay 100% of the costs of maintaining and running their resorts - which includes all cleaning etc by way of their maintenance fees?  (I believe the accounts can be reviewed - is Marriott Inc making a contribution I was not aware of?)

2. Will the existing owners continue to pay all of these fees under the new scheme or will Marriott Inc start making a contribution?  (i.e What happens to a resort which is now more heavily-used than before from external users while the existing owners continue to pay 100% of the existing MF's)

3. Do the existing owners in fact PAY Marriott a substantial fee to service and manage the resort?


I just think the answers might be illuminating - I understand what I believe the answers are likely to be, but perhaps an attorney or lawyer could interpret?


P.S. ) - WHERE ARE THE MF's ASSOCIATED WITH NEW MEMBERS GOING? - if the estimate of 7% 'skim' is accurate does that mean marriot have now gained the ability to sell an extra 7% of inventory and pocket the MF's relating to such sales as a 'windfall?

Just thinking aloud - but the 'assumptions' underlying ability to sell related to equivalence of points to weeks - now I wonder whether the equivalence is  based upon points required or points granted?


----------



## 5infam

DanCali said:


> option 1) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, rent it out, then rent two weeks in smaller units from other owners.
> 
> option 2) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, deposit in II, and do a 2 for 1 trade.
> 
> option 3) Sell your MOC, but a Westin Kaanapali resale with 148K Starwood Options, then call with home resort priority up to 8 months ahead and book a 1BR for 81K Options and a studio for 67K options.
> 
> The Marriott points system won't help your cause with any of these options.



I like option #3, but I don't think I can sell my unit and buy at the Westin without putting a lot more money into the thing. I always use the beach in front of the Westin anyway as it is sandy and not rocky like the Marriott, and there is actually sand to lay out on, etc.. Although my kids love the slide at the Marriott, so there you go. 

If you know a good way to do that, without backing up the money truck, then let me know, I am all ears!!


----------



## tombo

5infam said:


> I guess I will sit on the sidelines further until some smarter Tugger than me figures out what all this *REALLY* means.



You already figured it all out yourself. Re-read your post. Your feelings are correct.


----------



## 5infam

Thanks Tombo - but I know my statement was a hopefull one at best. I am hoping that maybe we jumped overboard, and there really is 2 buckets of availability, weeks people and points people; or that maybe they will change this system in some way. Their written communication is so vague at this point, I have to agree with your side of things. But, I am holding out that we are wrong, and maybe there is something to this that I am missing.

Until then, the $1,495 sits in my account earning interest


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Did you find that in writing. If dealing with Marriott has taught me anything it is no matter what you are told or promised, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't count.



Did you?    Honestly, I haven't even looked for it because of what I know from other systems.  Like I said, I'd find it very hard to believe that Marriott has figured out how to do legally what is illegal for every other point system to do.  They'd all LOVE it.  Nope, this time the burden's on you, Tombo - you're the only one making this assertion, you need to back it up.

You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners.  In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment.  They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need.  Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way.  Some others changed their vacation habits.  And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.)  It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal.  As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase.  If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.

Point re-allocations are a major concern.  I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about.  But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.


----------



## jdking

*Interval Multi Year Subscription*

Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?


----------



## SueDonJ

jdking said:


> Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?



Somewhere in all these posts and threads some folks have reported that they've been told they will get a credit returned to them or bonus weeks or AC's for the remaining years on their subscriptions.  All of them did the enrollment process over the phone.  If you go through the enrollment process online it's not mentioned at all in the initial stages, I'm still waiting for the enrollment confirmation and don't know if it will be in that email.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> Did you?    Honestly, I haven't even looked for it because of what I know from other systems.  Like I said, I'd find it very hard to believe that Marriott has figured out how to do legally what is illegal for every other point system to do.  They'd all LOVE it.  Nope, this time the burden's on you, Tombo - you're the only one making this assertion, you need to back it up.
> 
> You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners.  In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment.  They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need.  Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way.  Some others changed their vacation habits.  And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.)  It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal.  As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase.  If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.
> 
> Point re-allocations are a major concern.  I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about.  But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.



I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract.   You are the one who always says don't buy until you have read everything on the contract because in the end that is all you are guaranteed.

Actually I thought you would have it in hand and post it in follow up. I read that they have the  rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason, but I can't swear to it. I know they did a number on many who bought to get rewards ppoints using their rights to change points values. People assumed they would get enough points to reserve what they bought every year, but through the years as ZMarriott devalued rewards points it takes a whole lot more than they give you to reserve your week now. Since they have done it in the past, without written contractual wording prohibiting them from doing it here, it has to be a real concern.

Some of my points are what ifs for sure, but if anyone had said every owner will have 7% to 15% of their points skimmed when they deposit their week into points before this was launched, all would have said they would NEVER do that. DVC doesn't, Starwood doesn't, Hyatt doesn't, Wyndham doesn't, why would you think Marriott would? You are doomsday predicting, the sky s falling, etc. Here the program is and yes they do skim despite no other points company doing the same. 

If it is in the contract that they can changes points at any time for any reason and you blindly trust them to treat you right, it is as you say your own fault for expecting them to do what is right when you know they only do what they legally have to. It is definetelly in the contract that they can change points values based on demand, and that is good enough for me to not trust the points value you purchase to be of similar value years down the road. Unless you can find verbage from Marriott assuring your points value to keep up with points inflation and to be worth equivalent value in the future to what it is worth when you buy, then you have to assume they will devalue what you buy as they have done in the past because nothing is in the contract to stop them from reducing the value of the points you buy.


----------



## catharsis

SueDonJ said:


> I see you didn't find the language.  Or did you forget to put the link here?
> 
> They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change.  Yep, it's right there on the chart itself.  But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating.  They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar.  They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.



Sue

you have made this assertion on a number of occasions - and i would have assumed that this was correct before the launch of the new program - but in fact I cannot find any language which states that the total number of points required to book the entire marriott inventory for the entire year cannot be increased - in point of fact there is a specific statement to the effect that points values can be changed at any time - but I cannot identify anywhere in the available documents any language documenting this 'constraint' you keep refering to?

Perhaps you could identify where/why the total points required to book all available weeks as an aggregate cannot be increased by Marriott?  - repeating the assertion without reference to a documented source while requesting others refer you to source documents to prove THEIR assertions would see a little one-sided?


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract.   You are the one who always says don't buy until you have read everything on the contract because in the end that is all you are guaranteed.
> 
> Actually I thought you would have it in hand and post it in follow up. I read that they have the  rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason, but I can't swear to it. I know they did a number on many who bought to get rewards ppoints using their rights to change points values. People assumed they would get enough points to reserve what they bought every year, but through the years as ZMarriott devalued rewards points it takes a whole lot more than they give you to reserve your week now. Since they have done it in the past, without written contractual wording prohibiting them from doing it here, it has to be a real concern.
> 
> Some of my points are what ifs for sure, but if anyone had said every owner will have 7% to 15% of their points skimmed when they deposit their week into points before this was launched, all would have said they would NEVER do that. DVC doesn't, Starwood doesn't, Hyatt doesn't, Wyndham doesn't, why would you think Marriott would? You are doomsday predictiong, the sky s falling, etc. Here the program is and yes they do skim despite no other points company doing the same. If it is in the contract that they can changes points at any time for any reason and you blindly trust them to treat you right, it is as you say your own fault for expecting them to do what is right when you know they only do what they legally have to.



I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers.  The inventory in the timeshare system must correlate to the points charts established for its use, although certain allowances can be made for re-allocation on a specified basis.  Marriott suffers no maximum limit for the amount of inventory it offers in a reward system and can do whatever it wants to devalue holdings of the members.

But I'll tell you what.  If you're still convinced that they can increase values across the points charts willy-nilly whenever they please, find that in the disclosures and send it on.  Most of us who have enrolled are still within the rescission period.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers.  The inventory in the timeshare system must correlate to the points charts established for its use, although certain allowances can be made for re-allocation on a specified basis.  Marriott suffers no maximum limit for the amount of inventory it offers in a reward system and can do whatever it wants to devalue holdings of the members.
> 
> But I'll tell you what.  If you're still convinced that they can increase values across the points charts willy-nilly whenever they please, find that in the disclosures and send it on.  Most of us who have enrolled are still within the rescission period.



Rescind lol. If you convert to points without finding guarantees of your point's value in the contract, don't blame Marriott when they make it where you can't book anything good with your points. It was never their responsibility to coddle your points or protect their value. Marriott only has to do what the contract says they have to. You will as you like to say have no reason to blame Marriott, it will be your own fault for converting with no written guarantees . This is paraphrased from posts you made to me where i was upset that Marriott didn't do what they said they would. Now the shoe is on the other foot, perhaps you need to rescind and re-read the contract yourself.


----------



## camachinist

> it was never their responsibility to coddle your points *_er, weeks_* or protect their value


Shall we purchase bassinets for weeks *and* points now? Ah, nothing like the smell of a new baby.


----------



## littlestar

SueDonJ said:


> You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners.  In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment.  They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need.  Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way.  Some others changed their vacation habits.  And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.)  It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal.  As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase.  If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.
> 
> Point re-allocations are a major concern.  I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about.  But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.



One thing about Disney reallocating their points, they have to stay within the points allowance for the whole entire year for each specific resort. Simply stated, DVC cannot change the total number of points it would take to reserve every room for every night of the year for a specific DVC resort. By POS, DVC cannot change the nightly points by more than 15% in any one year either.  I actually like the changes that DVC did when they readjusted the charts - now it doesn't take practically three times as many points on a weekend and I like that. 

I wonder if Marriott has any caps at all like DVC does on what they can do with their point system?  Or is it like the Marriott rewards program?  Maybe someone who buys points can take a look at the POS and see what it says. I know I wouldn't have purchased our DVC points if there hadn't been some rules about what Disney could and could not do on reallocations.    I'll probably sell my Marriott week soon and just rent at Marriott when I want to stay at one of their resorts.

As a further side note, the Marriott rep at II that I talked to the other day told me if I enrolled in the Marriott points program I would have to keep a separate II account for my FWM resort that I trade in II.  I *don't* want to keep two separate II accounts - one for Marriott and one for something else.  It's too expensive since I own an EOY Marriott and an EOY FWM week.  Since I pretty much use my Marriott week to trade back into Orlando, I question if I really need to even own it anymore.  And for the months I travel (off season - September, January, and early May) I don't think owning anything with Marriott is really necessary.


----------



## pacheco18

tombo said:


> I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract.I read that they have the  rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason



For me that is the dealkiller.


----------



## DanCali

5infam said:


> I like option #3, but I don't think I can sell my unit and buy at the Westin without putting a lot more money into the thing. I always use the beach in front of the Westin anyway as it is sandy and not rocky like the Marriott, and there is actually sand to lay out on, etc.. Although my kids love the slide at the Marriott, so there you go.
> 
> If you know a good way to do that, without backing up the money truck, then let me know, I am all ears!!



You can get WKORV resale for $10K-$20K, depending on view category. Resale prices got decimated due to escalating MFs ($2500 for a 2BR). Check eBay completed auctions... Sometimes if an eBay auction is mislisted (no keyword in title) you can get a steal. 

Starwood has a whole other set of problems (see Starwood board), but skimming and home resort priority are not among those.


----------



## scrapngen

pacheco18 said:


> For me that is the dealkiller.



Me, too. They have already shown that the points they allocate for my weeks are low. My assumption is that this allocation # will stay the same, since this is only a number for legacy weeks. NO more weeks will be sold, so no reason for Marriott to EVER adjust this value. I assume based on the similar happenings with MR that while my number allocated will stay fixed, the points needed to reserve will continue to be adjusted up overall for "inflation."  You may choose to believe that Marriott will adjust BOTH numbers, but I don't see any reason for them to do so, as it won't sell more points and doesn't affect any new sales of points.


----------



## dioxide45

tombo said:


> Did you find that in writing. If dealing with Marriott has taught me anything it is no matter what you are told or promised, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't count.





SueDonJ said:


> I see you didn't find the language.  Or did you forget to put the link here?
> 
> They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change.  Yep, it's right there on the chart itself.  But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating.  They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar.  They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.



The main issue here with point allocation is that Marriott started a new exchange company, not a new timeshare company. Laws regulating exchange companies are not what they are for a points based ownership like DVC. Marriott can basically do what it want with the points charts for resorts that are not in the trust. They may have more limitiations on resorts in the trust. 

There is nothing in any law or governing document that limits how Marriott can modify the points chart to their advantage. If I am wrong, point me to it.


----------



## melroseman

jdking said:


> Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?



I think you'll get an AC if you have more than 1 year left with Interval, and a second one at the end of 2 years if you have 36 or more months on your Interval subscription


----------



## Brenda

DanCali said:


> Just a little reminder that us (the "little people" with less than 13K allocated points) cannot book 5 or 6 days until 10 months in advance. By definition, that would not work for most high demnd weeks...


========================================================
What I am saying for the 1 - 2 week owner: For your own week, you reserve as you do now at the 12/13 month period. If you want to trade to a like resort, then using your points, you reserve less than 7 days at a resort you don't own. If you do not want to purchase additional points, you do not have to. The 10 month window is for resorts, where you do not own. You may not get prime weeks at a resort you don't own. But you were never promised prime trade weeks with II. It was always by chance. If you don't want to lose your home week, reserve it first, then call at 10 months to check if there is availability at the to be traded resort. If not available at that time, make your search with points Request First. Then you wouldn't lose your home resort if the trade does not come through. This will work if we can reserve in the week system and then search the point system without converting your week to points.


----------



## Brenda

DanCali said:


> Can you get a summer Maui, Kauiai, or even a summer NCV with your 2BR Platinum Koolina? (I believe the answer is no)
> 
> That's the point he was making... The vast majority woul agree that a 2BR Platinum Hawaii is like for like with either of those...


=======================================================
You own at Ko"olina not Maui. Why should you be able to get a prime week where you don't own? Before points, you could request the trade through II but it was never certain you would get it. With points come equality. A week where you do not own is not equal. The true deserved of a prime week is the person who owns there, not a trader.


----------



## heathpack

SueDonJ said:


> I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers.



I am not a lawyer nor a Marriott owner.  But I do own both Hyatt and DVC and I did read quite a bit about California timeshare law when Hyatt recently increased points requirements for the Highlands Inn in Carmel.

I would not assume too much about what Marriott can or cannot do in regards to points.  Hyatt points and Disney points are legally looked at very differently.  Because the Hyatt points are an overlay to a traditional weeks-based timeshare system, Hyatt can do whatever they want in regards to raising point requirements for stays, as long as you retain access to you regular deeded week.  Hyatt points legally are similar to hotel rewards points.

DVC on the other hand is a points-based system and points-based systems are governed by a different set of rules in California.  Total points valuations for a resort are defined in the initial governing documents of the time-share plan as submitted to the CA state department of real estate for approval.  From there, points values cannot be increased by more than 10% per year unless >25% of non-developer owners vote for such a change.  

In California, it would seem to my non-lawyer self that Marriott weeks owners would be joining the points system as an overlay to their deeded week usage, in which case there would be no laws governing points increases.  However, new points owners would be buying into a points system, which would be subject to laws pertaining to points based systems.  

So as I understand it, weeks owners that use a points overlay for internal exchange purposes have far less legal protection in regards to points devaluation than do pure points owners.  It is possible that different sets of laws will pertain to owners in CA depending on what system was in place when they purchased.

Maybe someone who actually is a lawyer will be able to comment on this with more authority than I can.

One thing that I will point out is that DVC's sales pitch majorly emphasizes the concept that they can never increase total points values at a resort.  If Marriott is not emphasizing this, I would be concerned that they may have more wiggle room legally than DVC does.

H


----------



## mauiwowie

*Maybe we can trade weeks every other year Frank*

Hi Frank,

My situation and concerns about the new system's effect on my usage is very similar to yours!  Maybe we and other Maui owners can do our own trading of weeks, since we too like to do two weeks every other year, even though we own an every year unit.  That way we don't have to pay Marriott's point inflation for the priviledge of using our week at our resort.  That is assuming that we can get a week that we want, since it seems that premium members will be able to book in advance of us:annoyed:  Do you want to share our weeks, so that we can get the 13 month advantage?


----------



## dioxide45

heathpack said:


> I am not a lawyer nor a Marriott owner.  But I do own both Hyatt and DVC and I did read quite a bit about California timeshare law when Hyatt recently increased points requirements for the Highlands Inn in Carmel.
> H



The new exchange program is governed by Florida Law. Here is a link to the statute relating to exchange programs in Florida.


----------



## rsackett

Brenda said:


> ========================================================
> What I am saying for the 1 - 2 week owner: For your own week, you reserve as you do now at the 12/13 month period. If you want to trade to a like resort, then using your points, you reserve less than 7 days at a resort you don't own. If you do not want to purchase additional points, you do not have to. The 10 month window is for resorts, where you do not own. You may not get prime weeks at a resort you don't own. But you were never promised prime trade weeks with II. It was always by chance. If you don't want to lose your home week, reserve it first, then call at 10 months to check if there is availability at the to be traded resort. If not available at that time, make your search with points Request First. Then you wouldn't lose your home resort if the trade does not come through. This will work if we can reserve in the week system and then search the point system without converting your week to points.



I believe you have to declare before (about 3 months) the use year if you want to use points or weeks.  If you are in the use year you can not decide to use points.  I thing you would have to search through II with your week in the example you gave.

Ray


----------



## NJDave

melroseman said:


> I think you'll get an AC if you have more than 1 year left with Interval, and a second one at the end of 2 years if you have 36 or more months on your Interval subscription





Can anyone that got an offer for the AC's post the details that are known.  For instance, is there an additional fee or is the fee included in the $165 / $199 Club Fees, any limitations on use such as holdiays, does the Marriott preference pertain? Would I get 3 weeks if there was 5 years left?


----------



## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> The new exchange program is governed by Florida Law. Here is a link to the statute relating to exchange programs in Florida.



Was not trying to imply that CA law necessarily applied- just that not all "points" are necessarily equal from a legal perspective.

But your post does beg another question: If you own a Marriott deeded week (say) in Palm Springs, CA and then sign up for the points program (apparently subject to FL law), does CA law no longer apply to your original purchase?

H


----------



## JimIg23

At first, I though the points we got were tied into the developer's price.  Now I am thinking it is based on what Marriott needs to start the program rolling.  There are 11-14 of the resorts in the trust, so they have weeks to start the program rolling.  They probably have a lot of NCV point weeks (new buildings built), which is maybe why we were offered only 3450 and summer is worth 4700.  It is not that owners' deeded NCV weeks are worth under the median price of platinum season, its that They dont need our weeks and probably dont want them.  They have enough NCV to work in the system.  I bet the owners offered the most points are the ones in high demand and Marriott has no points/weeks to use.  Marriott needs those points to get the program running and are enticing the owners of the needed weeks to join.  I hope they cant lower our points when they have more than enough weeks in our specific resort, some here with great point packages may lose some.

This concerns me a bit as if they only have a limited number weeks around but a large number of NCV weeks,  will the new point owners take NCV summer as it is all that's there?  Even if it is 2 seperate week banks, nothing I have seen says the points bank cannot take a larger part of the summer, just as long as the deeded week owners have some weeks to reserve.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I see you didn't find the language.  Or did you forget to put the link here?
> 
> They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change.  Yep, it's right there on the chart itself.  But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating.  They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar.  They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.



I am not trying to be argumentative here- but in reality what has to stay stable? I know that, if they assign x points to each villa and there are y villas, then they can sell (x)(y)(51, allowing for a week's maintenance, which is what I think they do) points- right? In a fully sold out resort today, is that total point allotment reflected in the point assignment or the point cost, because they are two very different sums at many properties. 

Take Aruba, for example, because the total point allotments given owners there are significantly less than the total point costs to book the weeks. In reality, isn't only the point allotment (which would correspond to the number of points which could be sold in total for the resort) really the figure that has to be fixed in totality (they can change the point allotment between weeks, but not the sum total)?

If I am right and that's the case, then what stops them from changing the point charge down the road to whatever they feel the market can bear? They already aren't giving the point cost as the point allotment in many cases, so what is to prevent them from widening the gap?

Moreover, they reserve the right to change the point assignments, if I remember correctly up to 10% a year. Potentially, that can amount to a lot of devaluation.

The disappointing thing about this program is that Marriott has shown that it doesn't feel an obligation to give owners equal value for what they are giving up. I have literally been told (by a Marirott rep) that the program was not designed to replace weeks and that you will get your best value booking your owned week and trading in weeks. It was a program designed with a cost for the flexibility. Make no mistake- the annual cost is not the $169 or $199 you're paying only- the program was designed to give Marriott a commission on every points exchange. If point value are subject to change at up to 10% a year, you can just about guarantee that, over time, Marriott will take a little more at a time. 

Keep in mind these three words: reward points program. Think about how angry many of you were last time those 7 night packages suddenly shrunk to 5 nights, and the point cost for them went up to boot.

I liken this to the exchange for reward points program. The number of points allocated was fixed on day one, but the redemption costs have escalated over time, so that the allocated points suffered several major devaluations.

Am I missing something here, or is this a very real possibility?


----------



## m61376

NJDave said:


> Can anyone that got an offer for the AC's post the details that are known.  For instance, is there an additional fee or is the fee included in the $165 / $199 Club Fees, any limitations on use such as holdiays, does the Marriott preference pertain? Would I get 3 weeks if there was 5 years left?



From what I was told you would get an AC for years 1,3 and 5. They would not be bonus weeks deposited but regular AC's and you'd have to pay the usual associated fees.


----------



## SueDonJ

Oh holy jeebers, my brain hurts.   

I've read everything I can get my hands on and have to admit, there isn't enough protection in what I've seen to say that Marriott can't increase (or decrease!) points unrelated to re-allocations.  But I have a list of specific questions for when I call in on Monday.  Interestingly, the one and only specific thing about re-allocation that I did find said that if a Special Benefit was offered on certain inventory at reduced costs, Marriott wouldn't increase point costs in the usage calendar to cover those reductions.  But there are quite a few references to changes in the point totals for usage as well as allotments - most make reference to demand, but not all.

So my big fat mouth ran away with itself again.  (I KNOW!  I'm as surprised as you are!  :hysterical:  )

BUT I am still leaning towards continuing with the enrollment, and that's not my big fat mouth talking.  I've read all of the posts both pro and con, tried to figure out if those that I don't necessarily agree with make sense for my usage, considered carefully the opinions of every TUG poster whose personalities I recognize (whether we agree or not) ... and STILL have come to the conclusion that from all appearances, if you have a decent point total allotted to you with this rollout then your chances are better that Enrolled Points will work out better for you than staying with Weeks.  That's where I am.  As a Premier Plus member with underlying weeks which do offer what appears to be reasonable points value - compared to some other resorts where I think the allotments are unfair - I have no question that I will do better with this than with exchanging Weeks in II.  That's a huge concern to me - I think II inventory is going to be severely impacted based on the fact that Marriott can pull II deposits to satisfy both Weeks and Points exchange requests.  Home resort usage isn't so much a concern because the deeded reservation procedures will protect that usage as much as possible.

So yes, I know points may change.  But I don't think Marriott is out to screw any of us.  I think they'll want to make this work for themselves, think they HAVE to make it work for themselves, and to do that they will have to keep enrollees and new buyers somewhat happy.  The points charts look like they've already done quite a bit of fiddling with the Season calendars to reflect demand, and they're not going to sabotage their own success by devaluing the program at the first opportunity.  It might be a slow and steady decline, but so won't the usage in Weeks/II as near as I can figure.  Plus I'm an optimist - there is a very real possibility that Marriott will do right.   

And I'm sorry, but "skim" just isn't a concern to me.  The allotted values are what they are, I just can't get worked up over anything I can't control.  Skim is going to exist whether I enroll or not.  Those of you who make this your hill to die on, well, more power to you - no one can say you don't have the courage of your convictions.  But I just want to figure out how my timeshare weeks will work best for me.

So on Monday I'll be calling for some answers and if I learn anything new and improved, you'll be the first to know.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> Oh holy jeebers, my brain hurts.
> 
> I've read everything I can get my hands on and have to admit, there isn't enough protection in what I've seen to say that Marriott can't increase (or decrease!) points unrelated to re-allocations.  But I have a list of specific questions for when I call in on Monday.  Interestingly, the one and only specific thing about re-allocation that I did find said that if a Special Benefit was offered on certain inventory at reduced costs, Marriott wouldn't increase point costs in the usage calendar to cover those reductions.  But there are quite a few references to changes in the point totals for usage as well as allotments - most make reference to demand, but not all.
> 
> So my big fat mouth ran away with itself again.  (I KNOW!  I'm as surprised as you are!  :hysterical:  )
> 
> BUT I am still leaning towards continuing with the enrollment, and that's not my big fat mouth talking.  I've read all of the posts both pro and con, tried to figure out if those that I don't necessarily agree with make sense for my usage, considered carefully the opinions of every TUG poster whose personalities I recognize (whether we agree or not) ... and STILL have come to the conclusion that from all appearances, if you have a decent point total allotted to you with this rollout then your chances are better that Enrolled Points will work out better for you than staying with Weeks.  That's where I am.  As a Premier Plus member with underlying weeks which do offer what appears to be reasonable points value - compared to some other resorts where I think the allotments are unfair - I have no question that I will do better with this than with exchanging Weeks in II.  That's a huge concern to me - I think II inventory is going to be severely impacted based on the fact that Marriott can pull II deposits to satisfy both Weeks and Points exchange requests.  Home resort usage isn't so much a concern because the deeded reservation procedures will protect that usage as much as possible.
> 
> So yes, I know points may change.  But I don't think Marriott is out to screw any of us.  I think they'll want to make this work for themselves, think they HAVE to make it work for themselves, and to do that they will have to keep enrollees and new buyers somewhat happy.  The points charts look like they've already done quite a bit of fiddling with the Season calendars to reflect demand, and they're not going to sabotage their own success by devaluing the program at the first opportunity.  It might be a slow and steady decline, but so won't the usage in Weeks/II as near as I can figure.  Plus I'm an optimist - there is a very real possibility that Marriott will do right.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but "skim" just isn't a concern to me.  The allotted values are what they are, I just can't get worked up over anything I can't control.  Skim is going to exist whether I enroll or not.  Those of you who make this your hill to die on, well, more power to you - no one can say you don't have the courage of your convictions.  But I just want to figure out how my timeshare weeks will work best for me.
> 
> So on Monday I'll be calling for some answers and if I learn anything new and improved, you'll be the first to know.



I am growing to love you (in a platonic way) in spite of the fact that we never agree on how Marriott is treating it's owners. You are in favor of whatever Marriott does and you trust them to do what is right for owners. I don't trust Marriott at all and I feel that they will cheat you whenever they can. In spite of our differing opinions I like listening to what you have to say. I really feel from the bottom of my heart that what I post is true and that if you convert to points that you will forever be sorry, but you have blind faith in Marriott and will convert with nothing in writing keeoing them from infating pponts costs in upcoming years. I feel sure that I am right and you are wrong, but only time will tell for sure. No matter how it turns out I hope we can remain friends even though I am almost positive that my predictions will proven to be correct and you will eventually regret putting so much trust in Marriott and their points program.


----------



## DanCali

JimIg23 said:


> This concerns me a bit as if they only have a limited number weeks around but a large number of NCV weeks,  will the new point owners take NCV summer as it is all that's there?  Even if it is 2 seperate week banks, nothing I have seen says the points bank cannot take a larger part of the summer, just as long as the deeded week owners have some weeks to reserve.



FWIW, I was able to get two July weeks at 13 months out (2-3 weeks before the program launched). On the other hand, I later talked to a rep who told me there were 300 people who called and didn't get a 2011 week that day.


----------



## DanCali

deleted-duplicate


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> But I don't think Marriott is out to screw any of us.



Seriously? What do they need to do for you to think otherwise? Isn't destroying the resale value of your VOIs enough?


----------



## Dean

JimIg23 said:


> At first, I though the points we got were tied into the developer's price.  Now I am thinking it is based on what Marriott needs to start the program rolling.  There are 11-14 of the resorts in the trust, so they have weeks to start the program rolling.  They probably have a lot of NCV point weeks (new buildings built), which is maybe why we were offered only 3450 and summer is worth 4700.  It is not that owners' deeded NCV weeks are worth under the median price of platinum season, its that They dont need our weeks and probably dont want them.  They have enough NCV to work in the system.  I bet the owners offered the most points are the ones in high demand and Marriott has no points/weeks to use.  Marriott needs those points to get the program running and are enticing the owners of the needed weeks to join.  I hope they cant lower our points when they have more than enough weeks in our specific resort, some here with great point packages may lose some.
> 
> This concerns me a bit as if they only have a limited number weeks around but a large number of NCV weeks,  will the new point owners take NCV summer as it is all that's there?  Even if it is 2 seperate week banks, nothing I have seen says the points bank cannot take a larger part of the summer, just as long as the deeded week owners have some weeks to reserve.


It seems to me to relate to relative demand for a given resort and week.  This is the best method to be used.  However, the spread is dramaticallly more than I would have expected.  

As for trust in Marriott, I'll again point out that essentially that's what we have in the old system as well as the new.  No matter what the deed or POS says, the system is only as good or bad as Marriott is.  It's funny to me that some want to make it Marriott's responsibility for resale value.  I can't even imagine a timeshare developer sitting around in a meeting saying "we can't do X because it will hurt owners resale value".  In their mind it's essentially zero when you walk out the door.


----------



## 5infam

mauiwowie said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> My situation and concerns about the new system's effect on my usage is very similar to yours!  Maybe we and other Maui owners can do our own trading of weeks, since we too like to do two weeks every other year, even though we own an every year unit.  That way we don't have to pay Marriott's point inflation for the priviledge of using our week at our resort.  That is assuming that we can get a week that we want, since it seems that premium members will be able to book in advance of us:annoyed:  Do you want to share our weeks, so that we can get the 13 month advantage?



Sounds good to me!!! I know I had looked into a few other trade sites before, and it just didn't seem likely I would get back in to my own resort. However, with the new system, if there are enough people that do not join, and the II pool is raided, then maybe that market place will be filled rather quickly.

On sharing our week for 13 months, sounds like another great idea - too bad it is not possible!  However, if we did join points, and we all had Maui 1bdr, mtn/grdn views, it would take 5 weeks to get premier status; and $7,500 for all of us to join, assuming resales. So, we have me and you, now we just need 3 more 1 week owners to "pool" our points, and we can then be treated "special" by Marriott. How fantastic!!!!:hysterical:


----------



## pacheco18

*ownertrades.com*

They just sent out a blast email (some of you may have also gotten it) hoping to capture those of us who do not want to be in the points system.

Here it is


This email is going to all www.ownertrades.com members

Hello Laraine

Marriott has just announced a program that allows owners to buy into a new
points-based exchange program that allows exchanging within the Marriott system
of resorts. This is an option that may impact some ownertrades.com members.

This new program costs $595 to join if you have a single resort week or $695 to
join if you have two or more (joining fees are higher if you bought from someone
other than Marriott). It also has an annual fee of (currently) $165 to belong
($195 for multiple weeks), which incudes some kind of Interval International
membership which, to my understanding, does not allow you personally to browse
Interval's website for exchanges (somehow Marriott does this *for* you,
perceived as a "negative" by many owners).

At the bottom of this email are some links to the Marriott website where their
program is explained.

Now -- as ownertrades.com members, you have for years been able to exchange with
each other for free, or at most pay the $10 membership payment. Since many of
you will no doubt decide against paying the "initiation" and annual fees to
Marriott to join their program,

OUR INTENTION IS TO CONTINUE PROVIDING FREE EXCHANGE SERVICES FOR EXISTING
OWNERS WHO DO NOT WANT TO PAY THESE NEW MARRIOTT FEES.

WHAT WE NEED FROM YOU: Your continued support and use of ownertrades.com (a
special thanks to those of you who pay the small $10 annual membership fee --
without you there would be no point in my continuing to run the site)

Since new owners buying into the Marriott system only get "points" (not a deeded
week at a resort), they will not be candidates for membership in ownertrades.com

It is the several hundred thousand existing Marriott owners, a large portion of
whom will not join the new, expensive Marriott program who need to hear about
ownertrades.com from YOU !

Read about the new program below. And then, if like many, you decide that
program is not for you, then it is more important than ever that you support
ownertrades.com

Here is a link to Marriotts website where you can inform yourself about the new
Marriott program yourself (you will need to login to their site):

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/why.html

Here is a link that shows how many points it takes to reserve in some other
Marriott location:

http://veljovich.com/tugpoints/points_charts.pdf

I am looking forward to increased ownertrades.com participation from you after
you come to understand this new offering from Marriott.

Best Regards,

Webmaster Clark


----------



## 5infam

Dean said:


> It seems to me to relate to relative demand for a given resort and week.  This is the best method to be used.  However, the spread is dramaticallly more than I would have expected.
> 
> As for trust in Marriott, I'll again point out that essentially that's what we have in the old system as well as the new.  No matter what the deed or POS says, the system is only as good or bad as Marriott is.  It's funny to me that some want to make it Marriott's responsibility for resale value.  I can't even imagine a timeshare developer sitting around in a meeting saying "we can't do X because it will hurt owners resale value".  In their mind it's essentially zero when you walk out the door.



Hi Dean,

I totally get what you are saying with the resale values and agreee 100%. 

However, one of the things I like about DVC is that they have an agressive ROFR program, which they exercise if the price gets to cheap. Also, I own resale points and direct purchase DVC points, and DVC can care less - I get all the same privelages either way. In other words, whether they mean to or not, my DVC points have always been about the same price and they have protected my resale value, and the logic of buying from them directly vs. resale. 

I owned DVC before my Marriott, and was surprised to see how Marriott said they would buy things back, but often let things go at 50% of retail or even way less than that. They seem to not care for resale owners too much either; which I get from them every time they "invite me" to the sales pitch when I stay at a Marriott TS, which hey, we are maintenance fee paying members, they should not care how I got in. Plus, the resale that I bought at 50% of retail, has now gone down about 30% for me, so if I wanted to resell it, I loose money, just like the other Marriott owners who bought direct, so Marriott should have pity on me, right? 

Anyway, just pointing out some differences in the 2 systems, which I know you are 100% aware of, but others may not be, so I thought I would throw it out there.


----------



## 5infam

pacheco18 said:


> They just sent out a blast email (some of you may have also gotten it) hoping to capture those of us who do not want to be in the points system.
> 
> Here it is
> 
> 
> This email is going to all www.ownertrades.com members
> 
> Hello Laraine
> 
> Marriott has just announced a program that allows owners to buy into a new
> points-based exchange program that allows exchanging within the Marriott system
> of resorts. This is an option that may impact some ownertrades.com members.
> 
> This new program costs $595 to join if you have a single resort week or $695 to
> join if you have two or more (joining fees are higher if you bought from someone
> other than Marriott). It also has an annual fee of (currently) $165 to belong
> ($195 for multiple weeks), which incudes some kind of Interval International
> membership which, to my understanding, does not allow you personally to browse
> Interval's website for exchanges (somehow Marriott does this *for* you,
> perceived as a "negative" by many owners).
> 
> At the bottom of this email are some links to the Marriott website where their
> program is explained.
> 
> Now -- as ownertrades.com members, you have for years been able to exchange with
> each other for free, or at most pay the $10 membership payment. Since many of
> you will no doubt decide against paying the "initiation" and annual fees to
> Marriott to join their program,
> 
> OUR INTENTION IS TO CONTINUE PROVIDING FREE EXCHANGE SERVICES FOR EXISTING
> OWNERS WHO DO NOT WANT TO PAY THESE NEW MARRIOTT FEES.
> 
> WHAT WE NEED FROM YOU: Your continued support and use of ownertrades.com (a
> special thanks to those of you who pay the small $10 annual membership fee --
> without you there would be no point in my continuing to run the site)
> 
> Since new owners buying into the Marriott system only get "points" (not a deeded
> week at a resort), they will not be candidates for membership in ownertrades.com
> 
> It is the several hundred thousand existing Marriott owners, a large portion of
> whom will not join the new, expensive Marriott program who need to hear about
> ownertrades.com from YOU !
> 
> Read about the new program below. And then, if like many, you decide that
> program is not for you, then it is more important than ever that you support
> ownertrades.com
> 
> Here is a link to Marriotts website where you can inform yourself about the new
> Marriott program yourself (you will need to login to their site):
> 
> https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/why.html
> 
> Here is a link that shows how many points it takes to reserve in some other
> Marriott location:
> 
> http://veljovich.com/tugpoints/points_charts.pdf
> 
> I am looking forward to increased ownertrades.com participation from you after
> you come to understand this new offering from Marriott.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Webmaster Clark



Thanks for this!! I never joined because of the fee, and was not sure that I would ever get a trade - but I am signing up right now with them. $10.00 to potentially protect my options is a lot better than $1,495.00 and a prayer.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> I can't even imagine a timeshare developer sitting around in a meeting saying "we can't do X because it will hurt owners resale value".  In their mind it's essentially zero when you walk out the door.



Well, then maybe they should tell you that when you buy rather than imply in various timeshares appreciate in value.

It's be a great pitch. "Pay $30K + $1000 in MFs for the rest of your life. Over the next 10 years, the cost of your vacations will be $4000/year or approximately $600/night. A lifetime of prepaid vacations!"


----------



## tombo

5infam said:


> Thanks for this!! I never joined because of the fee, and was not sure that I would ever get a trade - but I am signing up right now with them. $10.00 to potentially protect my options is a lot better than $1,495.00 and a prayer.



I am doing the same and hope 10,000's of others do too.


----------



## urple2

tombo said:


> I am doing the same and hope 10,000's of others do too.



I'm in...( or is it out...lol) I see no value in the points I'm alotted and the verbage of all of this "policy" and especially that they can take a unit I deposit with an exchange company and use it to prop up their point system makes me sick.


----------



## tombo

Dean said:


> It seems to me to relate to relative demand for a given resort and week.  This is the best method to be used.  However, the spread is dramaticallly more than I would have expected.
> 
> As for trust in Marriott, I'll again point out that essentially that's what we have in the old system as well as the new.  No matter what the deed or POS says, the system is only as good or bad as Marriott is.  It's funny to me that some want to make it Marriott's responsibility for resale value.  I can't even imagine a timeshare developer sitting around in a meeting saying "we can't do X because it will hurt owners resale value".  In their mind it's essentially zero when you walk out the door.



You must have never sat through a Marriott timeshare presentation and mentioned resales. Marriott bragged that their resales values were one the highest in the industry thanks to ROFR. I was told that every time I attended a Marriott slaes presentation. I was also told that I would never actually own a cheap resale Marriott because marriott would ROFR it. Both turned out to be lies, but Marriott DID proudly announce that their resales held their value at every presentation I attended and it was part of their sales pitch.


----------



## m61376

tombo said:


> You must have never sat through a Marriott timeshare presentation and mentioned resales. Marriott bragged that their resales values were one the highest in the industry thanks to ROFR. I was told that every time. I was also told that I would never actually own a cheap Marriott because marriott would ROFR it. Both turned out to be lies, but Marriott DID proudly announce that their resales held their value at every presentation I attended.



Besides that (which is true from my experience) and what DanCali alluded to, while Dean is right that Marriott doesn't waste it's time trying to protect resale value. HOWEVER, if they truly do decide to exclude any future resales- whether of our weeks or of points, from the system of the future then, essentially, weeks will retain some value and points will have no inherent value other than for using for vacation memories. Yes, I know that's what buying is all about- but to sell something with no inherent value is going to be a tough sell. If you have to plunk down 40 or 50 k, forgetting even about lost opportunity costs, over a twenty year span it adds $2000-2500per year to your MF's- so you'll be paying in the vicinity of 3K-4K per year at the outset. Add that to the fact that, at many of the properties, you can rent a week for less than that at Marriott.com. A 2BR at Surfwatch in mid-August only costs $3500 to reserve without any owner discounts- yet was awarded how many points? 4500 x 9.2 = $41,400. Financially, imho, if I wanted to go to HH I might as well rent- because now I am not talking about rental rates from other owners which always has a little risk, I am referring to renting from Marriott.

My point is, without a sense of retained value, how can a sale be justified to a prospective buyer? If they don't allow resales into the program in the future, then they haven't decreased the value of resales for future buyers (current owners will still have value in week ownership), but they have eliminated any resale value for points only owners. That doesn't make sense to me, and I think that will change.


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## brigechols

*A Lottery System for Popular Weeks?*

While reading the  MVC Exchange Company Disclosure Guide for Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, I came across the following information:

_Exchange Company (MVC Exchange Company] has the right to establish priority lists, lottery systems, or other alternative methods off reserving accommodations in an effort to ensure the fair and equitable reservations and use of accommodations during holidays, events, and other high demand periods. If implemented, access to certain use periods by a member may be restricted in a given year based upon the member's ranking in a lottery or some other allocation methodology established by Exchange Company._


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## Numismatist

brigechols said:


> While reading the  MVC Exchange Company Disclosure Guide for Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, I came across the following information:
> 
> _Exchange Company (MVC Exchange Company] has the right to establish priority lists, lottery stems, or other alternative methods off reserving accommodations in an effort to ensure the fair and equitable reservations and use of accommodations during holidays, events, and other high demand periods. If implemented, access to certain use periods by a member may be restricted in a given year based upon the member's ranking in a lottery or some other allocation methodology established by Exchange Company._



So now we pay to be in a lottery?:rofl:


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## hipslo

Numismatist said:


> So now we pay to be in a lottery?:rofl:



the very same "lottery" language is already in the existing docs (reservation procedures) for weeks resorts, always has been


----------



## m61376

brigechols said:


> While reading the  MVC Exchange Company Disclosure Guide for Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, I came across the following information:
> 
> _Exchange Company (MVC Exchange Company] has the right to establish priority lists, *lottery systems, or other alternative methods off reserving accommodations *in an effort to ensure the fair and equitable reservations and use of accommodations during holidays, events, and other high demand periods. If implemented, access to certain use periods by a member may be restricted in a given year based upon the member's ranking in a lottery or some other allocation methodology established by Exchange Company._



Does that mean that, conceivably, Marriott has leeway to change from first come first serve for booking high demand weeks to ranking in order of point value ownership, for example?  

Hopefully that is something Marriott will never implement. Hopefully their lawyers were just trying to cover every contingency for the future.


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## hipslo

m61376 said:


> Does that mean that, conceivably, Marriott has leeway to change from first come first serve for booking high demand weeks to ranking in order of point value ownership, for example?
> 
> Hopefully that is something Marriott will never implement. Hopefully their lawyers were just trying to cover every contingency for the future.



As stated above, this language is the same, verbatim, as the language in the current reservation procedures (at least at mountainside).


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## Numismatist

hipslo said:


> the very same "lottery" language is already in the existing docs (reservation procedures) for weeks resorts, always has been



Correction:  so now we pay MORE to be in the lottery...:rofl:


----------



## wuv pooh

hipslo said:


> the very same "lottery" language is already in the existing docs (reservation procedures) for weeks resorts, always has been



Yes, but no one complains when Marriott takes a MR points exchange weeks and books a crappy shoulder season Platinum - that is fair

Now if Marriott took that same week and booked a 'prime' week that is theft  

They used to trust Marriott, but not anymore  

Oh the tangled webs we weave


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## NJDave

m61376 said:


> Does that mean that, conceivably, Marriott has leeway to change from first come first serve for booking high demand weeks to ranking in order of point value ownership, for example?
> 
> Hopefully that is something Marriott will never implement. Hopefully their lawyers were just trying to cover every contingency for the future.




From what I read in the documents, Marriott has the legal right to do whatever they please in almost every area.  You just have to trust them.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> I am growing to love you (in a platonic way) in spite of the fact that we never agree on how Marriott is treating it's owners. You are in favor of whatever Marriott does and you trust them to do what is right for owners. I don't trust Marriott at all and I feel that they will cheat you whenever they can. In spite of our differing opinions I like listening to what you have to say. I really feel from the bottom of my heart that what I post is true and that if you convert to points that you will forever be sorry, but you have blind faith in Marriott and will convert with nothing in writing keeoing them from infating pponts costs in upcoming years. I feel sure that I am right and you are wrong, but only time will tell for sure. No matter how it turns out I hope we can remain friends even though I am almost positive that my predictions will proven to be correct and you will eventually regret putting so much trust in Marriott and their points program.



How sweet, Tombo.  You're growing on me, too.    And how boring would life be if we only only picked friends who agreed with us all the time?!  You can disagree with me any time you please.

About "trust" in Marriott - over on that monster Aruba board they always said I had too much trust in Marriott, too, all because I usually didn't agree that they had a right to expect what they were demanding from Marriott.  I do trust Marriott - but only to do whatever it is that they possibly can do to protect their own interests in their products.  Within that framework, the only thing we owners can do is try to make their products work the best they can for us.  That thread reinforced for me a long time ago that Marriott's contracts are written to give themselves a whole lot more protection than some Weeks owners believe.  If you're going to question/challenge them you need to realize that they're going to protect you only if it serves their interests, and you better come prepared.  As Dean said in one post over there, "you better bring your big boy pants."  (One of my favorite TUG lines EVER!) 

In this new thing they obviously have more power over points allocations than I thought they did.  With dioxide's help (thanks, dioxide!) I realize I was reading things wrong.  What I thought is that the underlying trust's allocations would be subject to the same Florida laws that require DVC to correlate points to inventory.  Well, it turns out that Marriott has set up enrollment in the trust the same way as weeks, and owners of both are required to join the exchange company.  As dioxide said, the exchange company is subject to less stringent laws and that means Marriott has more protections.

So what are we left with now?  We have two choices - stay as is and "trust" Marriott to not muck around with home resort and II exchange usage as much as it might be possible for them to do, or enroll in this new thing and "trust" that Marriott will be inclined to favor Points owners over Weeks because their interests lie in making their new offering a success.  Not much of a choice, I agree, but the answer is going to be different for every owner and it can only be based on how much Marriott needs what we own to be successful.  In my case it isn't that I am in favor of what they've done or that I trust them to protect me - it's that they're asking me to choose from the lesser of two evils and I have to consider how what I own protects me.

I have good weeks.  That's fairly obvious because when I compare the value that Marriott has assigned to them at rollout, my points are stretching further for exchanges than most others.  It won't always be that way, I know, but if you remember in that speculation thread I always said that I expected newer resorts to have more value and that point inflation would occur over time.  As my weeks become older they'll lose value - that's just a fact of timeshare life no matter if you're dealing with a points or weeks system.  So if Marriott considers my weeks to be somewhat valuable then I am somewhat protected.

There isn't complete protection with points, no doubt.  But I'm also thinking that Weeks usage may be less protected now with Marriott's focus on making a success of Points.  I'm convinced that Marriott will have access to II Weeks deposits for Points exchange requests, and can't help but believe that the impact will increase over time.  Home resort usage is beginning to be questioned - how exactly will inventory be allocated for Premier and Base Points owners, and how will it impact 13- and 12-month Weeks reservations?  I've always thought that within Weeks, Marriott wasn't required to hold back 50% of every week but instead 50% of the season's weeks.  Everybody always said that was wrong, it had to be per week, but there's nothing in the contracts to say that it's wrong.  It's always appeared to me that Marriott did it on a weekly basis because that didn't cause problems for them.  Well, if they need to change that in order to make their Points system successful, will they?  I don't know.  Like I said, I'm not certain they can, but they've never spelled it out one way or the other.  To me that means the ball is in their court.

As far as resale value, every Weeks owner loses out with this new rollout.  Weeks are devalued even further than I'd expected them to be because further resales will be restricted from joining Points.  Some of us have been saying for ages that Marriott shouldn't have been expected to protect resale value - that's not what they've ever done.  They've historically used ROFR to pick up inventory on the cheap when they have a need for it.  That's it's only purpose.  And as unbelievable as it seems, my sales rep didn't try to tell us that our weeks would have resale value (probably because we had a Timeshare Resale mag in our hands when we met her.)  She did tell us that our price that day would be less than what it might be from Marriott in the future and that was the truth.  The impact on resale values isn't any different whether you enroll or not which means it's simply not a factor.

Tombo, I can't stand on principle here the way you can.  I'm in the fortunate position of owning Weeks that have some value in this new system now.  Another thing history teaches us about Marriott is that those who come in on the ground floor of any new product get the most value out of that product.  So I'm still leaning towards enrollment.

Now I've written a novel.  Again.     In the end what I hope is that this all works out to fall somewhere in the middle and we all get at least enough usage value to keep giving us nice vacations for a good many years.


----------



## ngmaui

It has been exhausting reading this thread but it also have been a very nice learning experience for me.  We are interested in enrolling in the points system.  For us, now that our family has grown by 3, traveling to Hawaii just is not as practical anymore.  As a result we have had decent luck with II and have even gotten ACs with our deposit but even then, we have occasionally felt the fear of trading down.  Also, with the potential of 5 airfare tickets...It is very restrictive and many times more expensive to fly weekend to weekend verses midweek.  I have a lot of appreciation for the flexibility of a points based system ever since learning and studying the DVC.  We would be owners of the mouse if we could afford 2 timeshares right now.  The 3900 points that our 1Bed 2 Bath MOC Oceanview would give us looks like a lot of options at other resorts we would love to stay at.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had looked into what happens to an II account that has an unused deposit in it with the switchover to points.  Our situation is our II membership runs out in August, we have one unit that has been deposited with expiration in Sept 2011 and no ongoing requests.

So our question is, if we join the Marriott Points system before my II account expires does our existing account with our deposit just get extended or do we have to setup a new II points account and then have to pay a 1 year renewal on our existing account to be able to exchange out deposit after the August expiration of our membership?

Thanks for everyone's input to this thread and for any help you can give me on this...


----------



## camachinist

> So our question is, if we join the Marriott Points system before my II account expires does our existing account with our deposit just get extended or do we have to setup a new II points account and then have to pay a 1 year renewal on our existing account to be able to exchange out deposit after the August expiration of our membership?



Conventional wisdom would indicate that, since your deposit is long gone into II's system, in order to use it, you will need to maintain your II account. If you're 'switching' to Marriott's 'system', investigate the strategy of extending your II account and receiving an A/C for your 'troubles' of using your existing deposit.  Alternatively, prior, consult with Marriott as they might have a more 'customer friendly' solution. Remember, Marriott is about empowering their employess to satisfy the customer


----------



## davidvel

hipslo said:


> As stated above, this language is the same, verbatim, as the language in the current reservation procedures (at least at mountainside).



Wow! This language is NOT in the Shadow Ridge docs (and I can't imagine any other CA MVCI resort.)

hipslo, could you post the exact language you found in mountainside docs?


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## bobpark56

Questions:

So...if Marriott charges more in points for reservations than it grants when  one deposits, won't that result in a gradual (or rapid, in some folks' view) build-up of inventory? I.e., fewer units rented than deposited?

Where, then, will this inventory go?

And if Marriott has this inventory, why would they be drawing from Interval's inventory, as some have alleged?

Has Interval really agreed to let Marriott withdraw inventory from units deposited with II? Does Marriott have this right?

There are many things I don't yet understand here.


----------



## hipslo

davidvel said:


> Wow! This language is NOT in the Shadow Ridge docs (and I can't imagine any other CA MVCI resort.)
> 
> hipslo, could you post the exact language you found in mountainside docs?




I don't have an electronic version of the docs to post (and I am too lazy to type it from scratch) but the language is found in Section 1.10 of the Reservation Procedures (which is Exhibit E to the Declaration of Condominium.)  The language is nearly identical to the language posted above, conformed for differences in defined terms. Substantively, it is identical.  (Ok, I'll admit it, I am also an attorney).

By the way, while I am not 100% certain, I think they actually did use this system at Mountainside for several weeks during the winter olympics, which took place around the time that Mountainside first opened.  I always took the language to apply to only that sort of a special event, though of course, as written, it is much broader.  I never much worried about it, since there is also language that states that they can change the reservation procedures however they want, at any time, to "more effectively fulfill reservation requests and properly operate the reservation program".  That seems to give them enough leeway to do all sorts of things.


----------



## davidvel

bobpark56 said:


> Questions:
> 
> And if Marriott has this inventory, why would they be drawing from Interval's inventory, as some have alleged?
> 
> Has Interval really agreed to let Marriott withdraw inventory from units deposited with II? Does Marriott have this right?


Putting aside natural fear that we will all be robbed... I have seen no language that indicates that MVCD could simply withdraw weeks from Interval. As I understand it, they would trade in Interval just like anyone else through their massive corporate account. 

If II allows MVCD to trade a dog for Maui summer, then it would be a problem, and it would be suicide for II.


----------



## davidvel

hipslo said:


> I don't have an electronic version of the docs to post (and I am too lazy to type it from scratch) but the language is found in Section 1.10 of the Reservation Procedures (which is Exhibit E to the Declaration of Condominium.)  The language is nearly identical to the language posted above, conformed for differences in defined terms. Substantively, it is identical.  (Ok, I'll admit it, I am also an attorney).
> 
> By the way, while I am not 100% certain, I think they actually did use this system at Mountainside for several weeks during the winter olympics, which took place around the time that Mountainside first opened.  I always took the language to apply to only that sort of a special event, though of course, as written, it is much broader.  I never much worried about it, since there is also language that states that they can change the reservation procedures however they want, at any time, to "more effectively fulfill reservation requests and properly operate the reservation program".  That seems to give them enough leeway to do all sorts of things.



Interesting. Makes sense. I am sure Marriott's lawyers searched for language in all the docs giving them the most leeway to do anything they want, and included that in the program conditions.


----------



## hotcoffee

davidvel said:


> Putting aside natural fear that we will all be robbed... I have seen no language that indicates that MVCD could simply withdraw weeks from Interval. As I understand it, they would trade in Interval just like anyone else through their massive corporate account.



So, you actually believe that when Marriott wants to withdraw a week from II, they will simply submit some type of a search similar to what we do and hope for a hit?  I suspect that the computer will be programmed to hit on the week they want as soon as it is deposited.  They might pop a week in to cover the one they are taking, but I cannot imagine that they will not get what they want.



davidvel said:


> If II allows MVCD to trade a dog for Maui summer, then it would be a problem, and it would be suicide for II.



Well it has not been suicide for them since Starwood starting doing something similar.  You'll probably never snag a prime Westin week through II because Starwood is not going to let that happen.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> Well, then maybe they should tell you that when you buy rather than imply in various timeshares appreciate in value.
> 
> It's be a great pitch. "Pay $30K + $1000 in MFs for the rest of your life. Over the next 10 years, the cost of your vacations will be $4000/year or approximately $600/night. A lifetime of prepaid vacations!"


I can bet that when you bought, you signed papers acknowledging this very fact if you bought retail, if you bough resale, you assume the original buyers commitments.  We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding.  I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally.



tombo said:


> You must have never sat through a Marriott timeshare presentation and mentioned resales. Marriott bragged that their resales values were one the highest in the industry thanks to ROFR. I was told that every time I attended a Marriott slaes presentation. I was also told that I would never actually own a cheap resale Marriott because marriott would ROFR it. Both turned out to be lies, but Marriott DID proudly announce that their resales held their value at every presentation I attended and it was part of their sales pitch.


Did you believe them?  I know I didn't.  



brigechols said:


> While reading the  MVC Exchange Company Disclosure Guide for Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, I came across the following information:
> 
> _Exchange Company (MVC Exchange Company] has the right to establish priority lists, lottery systems, or other alternative methods off reserving accommodations in an effort to ensure the fair and equitable reservations and use of accommodations during holidays, events, and other high demand periods. If implemented, access to certain use periods by a member may be restricted in a given year based upon the member's ranking in a lottery or some other allocation methodology established by Exchange Company._


I'm pretty sure this option is in the legal paperwork for weeks as well at least at all the ones I've seen.  Even if not, Marriott could institute it under the reservation rules.


----------



## davidvel

Dean said:


> I'm pretty sure this option is in the legal paperwork for weeks as well at least at all the ones I've seen.  Even if not, Marriott could institute it under the reservation rules.


Not at MRD.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> I can bet that when you bought, you signed papers acknowledging this very fact if you bought retail, if you bough resale, you assume the original buyers commitments.  We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding.  I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally.



Dean,

Sales people lie. It's a fact. But you justifying lies as a means to achieve sales is puzzling to me and I don't know how to react to that.

I do honor my commitments. I pay my MFs... Your statement 



> I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally.



seems to imply I made a commitment to keep my mouth shut... That I never committed to (although if you join the points system you will lose your voting rights too). If I feel wrong by Marriott I can educate other owners so they learn from my mistakes. If that costs Marriott in lost sales, I could care less - especially since, as you point out, they don't really care about my wealth (i.e. resale value) in particular. Frankly, I could also care less that there is a tiny clause in the contract saying any lie told me to is ok. Stretching the truth is one thing but using blatant lies to achieve timeshares sales is reprehensible - especially when customers are older and more naive than many of us. And even more so when the product sold is worth 70% less when resold. I cannot see how anyone can justify that.

I also don't understand how you can justify a company telling people (verbally of course) that a product appreciates and the devising various schemes intended to purposely depreciate that same product just to increase their profits. If your timeshare is worth zero to you - I'll buy from you for a couple hundred dollars. If it's worth more than zero, you should care - it affects you as well.


----------



## tombo

Dean said:


> I can bet that when you bought, you signed papers acknowledging this very fact if you bought retail, if you bough resale, you assume the original buyers commitments.  We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding.  I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally.
> 
> Did you believe them?  I know I didn't.
> 
> I'm pretty sure this option is in the legal paperwork for weeks as well at least at all the ones I've seen.  Even if not, Marriott could institute it under the reservation rules.



I can't beleieve that you condone the blatant systemic use of lies to sell timeshares as an acceptable business practice because there is a clause in the contract stating that no promises or claims made verbally are binding. If it was your retired parents they lied to and sold a week, I guess that would be OK even if they were older and not at the top of their mental game. If they sell your wet behind the ears children based on lies and put your children into debt for 30 years, it is OK because your children shouldn't have been so stupid and uneducated in the ways of business. You would probably call it a learning experience you are glad marriott taught them the hard way. I guess Marriott and Bernie Madoff can employ the same sales tactics of lies, mistatements, and half truths, and if only Bernie had been as legally smart as Marriott and got the buyers to sign a contract relieving him of all responsibility for verbal promises, then he would just be doing business with people who deserved to be ripped off too. Do you feel that con men who can find a way to legally protect themselves from prosecution by using a legal contract voiding all verbal  promises and statements they made are simply good businessmen?

People do not DESERVE to be sold one thing in a sales presentation which is in reality far different than what they actually own when they sign the contract. To infer that customers who aren't  business and contract savy deserve to be ripped off is ridiculous. That is like the woman in a short skirt who is raped being at fault for wearing the short skirt or having too many drinks. Don't blame the victim for being a victim, blame Marriott for preying on people who don't know better. People go to a sales presentation, they are promised that they can get Hawaii every year, that they are locking in a lifetime of vacations at todays prices,that buying this timeshare will save them 10 times what it costs to buy it, they are promised that what they are buying will have one of the highest resale values in the industry, and the sales staff and Marriott know all of that is a lie, yet they tell the lies every day to sell timeshares. They operate selling timeshares promising many things that aren't true, but it is OK since when it comes time to sign the contract all verbal promises and descriptions they used to sell the timeshare are now null and void. 

I don't do business that way, I don't condone businesses which operate in such a manner, and I am shocked that anyone  feels that selling in such a manner, whether legal or not, is an acceptable business practice. I guess anything you can do which is legal is acceptable to you no matter whether it is moral or right. 

If it happened to a relative of yours, whether the misleading sale was made by Marriott or any other company, I bet you would feel differently. I can't imagine anyone looking their children or parents in the eye after falling vicitm to a sham of a sales presentation and saying it is your fault, you were stupid, you trusted the sales person, rather than blaming the sales person for misleading your parents/kids into buying something that wasn't close to what they were told they were buying. Perhaps you can without any qualms look strangers and/or family in the eye and say you screwed up, it is your fault, and now you must take responsibility for your legal contract you signed based on lies and half truths you were told by the sales dept. If you have no qualms treating people in such a manner, perhaps you should sell for Marriott because if you only care about what is legal with no regards to morality, there is a bunch of money to be made.


----------



## 5infam

bobpark56 said:


> Questions:
> 
> So...if Marriott charges more in points for reservations than it grants when  one deposits, won't that result in a gradual (or rapid, in some folks' view) build-up of inventory? I.e., fewer units rented than deposited?
> 
> Where, then, will this inventory go?
> 
> And if Marriott has this inventory, why would they be drawing from Interval's inventory, as some have alleged?
> 
> Has Interval really agreed to let Marriott withdraw inventory from units deposited with II? Does Marriott have this right?
> 
> There are many things I don't yet understand here.



Hi Bob,

If I understand you first question correctly, you are asking what will Marriott do with the extra inventory on the skim, correct? If so, then the answer appears to be that they will be renting those points out to points owners. Remember, from the release of this program going forward, they only sell points - and not points to a specific resort (which would make me buy into this whole thing easier), but when you buy points, you buy them to every single resort that has a points chart, which i believe is every resort in the U.S. and the Caribbean. Also, points are expensive, so people may not go for a whole week anymore, and may just go for a few days, etc. That is actually a good thing about points is you can go for a few days, or add on days to a week or whatever. Anyway, that is what they will do with the inventory - or just rent it out for cash.

In regards to "why would they draw from II"...that is pretty simple as well. Many of the folks buying points only, have no home resort, and there are several resorts that are sold out or are nearly sold out. So, as a points owner, if you want to go to a sold out resort, technically, Marriott can only get you a week there if an owner of that resort, who has enrolled in the points program, turns their week in for points. This will allow Marriott to let the points member stay at the resort. However, if they are short on inventory, then they would look to deposits in II from those owners that did not enroll in the points program. This is where I and others are really pissed at Marriott, because they should leave us weeks owners alone, and let us trade as we have, without them sticking their hand in the "weeks" cookie jar, to solely benefit the points program. Now, we are not 100% sure this is how it works, but the language I have seen appears that this is how it will work, and there is the anger.

Whether Marriott has the right to do this or not - I have no idea. I like you, would hope not - but it appears they have. We are all waiting on someone to come up with a clear written response from Marriott or II, but as of yet - just more confusion. 

Hope that helps!


----------



## camachinist

Probably already mentioned, but other sources of weeks at 'sold-out' resorts are ROFR's and trustee sales by Marriott. Even if the resort is sold out, at most resorts, Marriott can cherry pick the 'good deals' (there is discussion of how the parameters of the DPC will affect resale week values) via ROFR and they can foreclose on weeks in default and add them to the trust. According to them, no 'new' weeks will be sold so I would presume all this activity will now benefit the trust. I imagine there are other methodologies as well. With every week Marriott-'trusted', Marriott gets another ownership vote on the HOA.


----------



## dioxide45

camachinist said:


> Probably already mentioned, but other sources of weeks at 'sold-out' resorts are ROFR's and trustee sales by Marriott. Even if the resort is sold out, at most resorts, Marriott can cherry pick the 'good deals' (there is discussion of how the parameters of the DPC will affect resale week values) via ROFR and they can foreclose on weeks in default and add them to the trust. According to them, no 'new' weeks will be sold so I would presume all this activity will now benefit the trust. I imagine there are other methodologies as well. With every week Marriott-'trusted', Marriott gets another ownership vote on the HOA.



Foreclosed weeks due to delinquent MF don't become property of Marriott, they belong to the HOA.


----------



## camachinist

I meant 'trustee sales' of weeks in 'default' of mortgage payments. Usually those weeks have back MF's owed as well, which are satisfied at the trustee sale.  I would suspect that in nearly all cases Marriott is the successful bidder at such sales. 

You do raise an interesting point though....if the HOA 'owns' the week in default of MF's, does that week get marketed as a week or will it go to the trust via a deal with Marriott? Hmmm


----------



## Bunk

I'd like to comment on Dean's comment:   "We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding. I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally."

The conclusion that verbal lying is OK because verbal lies do not create binding contracts is terribly cynical and will excuse all types of dishonest behavior in our business and personal relationships.  

It almost paints the legacy owners as people who deserve to be victims because they were stupid enough to rely on what the sales staff told them.

It is important to remember that Marriott set up the sales program and trained its staff in what to say.  Marriott's sales staff induced people to buy the timeshares.

It is important to keep the record clear in case any prospective new buyers happen to read these posts.  I believe the overwhelming sentiment among the posters is that new buyers should realize that Marriott has created a system in which it can and probably will change the terms in the future for its benefit.  I believe that the new system offers new buyers less protection and rights than the legacy system.  I would consider the treatment of the legacy owners  an important factor in making a business decision as to whether to invest a substantial amount of money in this new program.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

camachinist said:


> I meant 'trustee sales' of weeks in 'default' of mortgage payments. Usually those weeks have back MF's owed as well, which are satisfied at the trustee sale.  I would suspect that in nearly all cases Marriott is the successful bidder at such sales.
> 
> You do raise an interesting point though....if the HOA 'owns' the week in default of MF's, does that week get marketed as a week or will it go to the trust via a deal with Marriott? Hmmm





Does Marriott really need to bid on these weeks?  If they really want a juicy week then they can just wait until it crosses their desk during the ROFR process and just scoop it up.


----------



## camachinist

While no reflection upon current events, I can say, back in 2003, NCV sales staff didn't make any representations which later proved to be exagerations or outright lies. They sold the resort and the opportunity for 'pre-paid' vacations and the II book was hardly seen nor mentioned.  I didn't know about resales and the disparity in value but that was my ignorance, not their fault for not informing me. In a lot of things Marriott, since then, things have changed. If I had heard as many conflicting and often confusing statements/rules/interpretations as have been shared by members here on TUG (in their interactions with Marriott) I never would've purchased developer.



> Does Marriott really need to bid on these weeks?



Unclear, but my understanding is Marriott packages and sells the mortgages and services them. Someone would need to be paid. I presume the investors (financial companies) don't want to have timeshare REO's.  We were mortgagors with Marriott so I understand a little of the process.


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## SueDonJ

davidvel said:


> Wow! This language is NOT in the Shadow Ridge docs (and I can't imagine any other CA MVCI resort.)
> 
> hipslo, could you post the exact language you found in mountainside docs?



Not Mountainside, but here it is from SurfWatch's Management Agreement:

"RESERVATION PROCEDURES
1.8 PRIORITY LISTS; LOTTERIES
The Management Company, on behalf of the Board, reserves the right to establish priority lists or lottery systems in an effort to ensure the fair and equitable reservation and use of Units during high demand periods (e.g. holidays, special events, etc.)  If implemented, access to certain Use Periods and the availability of certain check-in/check-out days by an Owner may be restricted to a given year based upon the Owner's ranking in a lottery of some other allocation methodology.  The Management Company may establish and administrative for this service."

Of course the Management Agreement is "subordinate to" the Master Deed, which contains this in "Exhibit F to Master Deed, Timesharing Declaration":

"6. Reservation Procedures
(e) In the event either the Management Company or the Association determines that the current reservation system is unmanageable or is, for any reason, unfair to some or all of the Owners, the Management Company or the Association may, without the consent of the Owners and in its reasonable business judgment, revise the reservation system from time to time and cause such system to contain one or more of the following features:
(i) A system which assures that each Owner will have an equal opportunity to make a reservation for the more popular holiday periods;
(ii) A priority system for reservations which will give preference to those Owners who did not receive their desired reservation in the previous year;
(iii) Different minimum and maximum time periods or dates for requesting a reservation request, and;
(iv) Such other conditions, restrictions and limitations as the Management Company or the Association shall deem necessary under the circumstances to assure a manageable and fair system."  

Barony Beach's documents contain similar wording in the Management Agreement and "Exhibit G to the Master Deed, Timesharing Declaration."


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## wuv pooh

Bunk said:


> I'd like to comment on Dean's comment:   "We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding. I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally."
> 
> The conclusion that verbal lying is OK because verbal lies do not create binding contracts is terribly cynical and will excuse all types of dishonest behavior in our business and personal relationships.
> 
> It almost paints the legacy owners as people who deserve to be victims because they were stupid enough to rely on what the sales staff told them.
> 
> It is important to remember that Marriott set up the sales program and trained its staff in what to say.  Marriott's sales staff induced people to buy the timeshares.
> 
> It is important to keep the record clear in case any prospective new buyers happen to read these posts.  I believe the overwhelming sentiment among the posters is that new buyers should realize that Marriott has created a system in which it can and probably will change the terms in the future for its benefit.  I believe that the new system offers new buyers less protection and rights than the legacy system.  I would consider the treatment of the legacy owners  an important factor in making a business decision as to whether to invest a substantial amount of money in this new program.



You all keep banging this drum, but I am with Dean on this one.

I have purchased two timeshares with Marriott.  In both of them (Florida and Virginia) I had to specifically sign a document that stated:

1. I understand that timeshares are NOT an investment, and my purchase should not be based on any perceived investment value.
2. I understand that I have NO right to exchange, trade for points, lock off, or do anything EXCEPT occupy my full week during one week during the season that I purchased.  My purchase should not be based on any expectation of any of this continuing.
3. I understand that anything that was promised to me that is not in this written contract is null and void.  During my second purchase I had to get the salesman to hand write in a promise made to me that was not in the document and get initialed by both of us.  My purchase should not be based on anything that is not written.

To claim after the fact that you did not understand this is not believable to me.  Kind of like the people who make 2,000 a month and sign up for a 5,000 a month mortgage payment.  No one forced you to make the deal, in fact the State Attorney General has done his best to make you turn down the deal and even provided you a recission period if you are stupid enough to sign the deal.

The benefits have ALWAYS been at the discretion of Marriott and everyone has acknowledged this signing on.  There may be some individual exceptions at early resorts, but this has been consistent for a long time. 

You acknowledge this logically when you say that Marriott is taking our vote.  Marriott is taking our vote to vote against the interests of the point system and the DISAFFLIATION of the resort from the point system WHILE we are members of the same point system.  If your resort did disaffiliate from Marriott then you WOULD LOSE every benefit of the Marriott system, but you would STILL HAVE a right to occupy, a MF obligation, and a vote in the HOA.  Everything but these basic rights is dependent on the generosity of Marriott and what they think is best for their business and their customers.  NOTHING has changed, except that you no longer agree that the system that robbed other owners to provide you with extra benefits is now being changed to make it fair to those owners and it may hurt you because you feel entitled to the extra benefits.

Or do you feel that trading your studio for a 2bd is 'comparable'? Is it 'fair' that II takes garbage weeks spins them to gold and then sells the garbage as getaways for less than MF?  And you wonder if Marriott gets any complaints from the owners who are screwed?  What is really driving this is that 10 years ago all the resorts sold for similar dollars and really were comparable.  My first tour in Hawaii the week was only $2,000 more than Williamsburg.  Today the weeks in the system range from former Horizons weeks to Marco and Hawaii weeks that were sold for $70 or $80k for one week.  II is incented to make transactions and not some vision of comparable despite their rhetoric and transactions is what they make. These transactions have become increasingly unfair over time and Marriott is now taking back control of their inventory.  Somewhere is a parallel universe is another board made of of people who are thrilled that someone is finally going to be looking after their interests.  The truth is a weeks exchange system is not sustainable with huge disparities between resorts which is why everyone who has more than one is moving to points.  As usual, Marriott is last, but they get to the right place eventually.


----------



## davidvel

hotcoffee said:


> So, you actually believe that when Marriott wants to withdraw a week from II, they will simply submit some type of a search similar to what we do and hope for a hit?  I suspect that the computer will be programmed to hit on the week they want as soon as it is deposited.  They might pop a week in to cover the one they are taking, but I cannot imagine that they will not get what they want.



Marriott is not the only partner of II, as you indicate.  Good Marriott inventory in II is a huge draw and asset to the entire II system.

I am one of the biggest skeptics, but I cannot imagine that II agreed to allow Marriott to take any week it wants in exchange for any week Marriott chooses. This makes no sense from II's perspective. 

But many argue II will screw you for its "big partners." If it did, why only now with its discombobulated new system, and not previously? Why hadn't Marriott asked for such a system over the past decades (which you think II would so graciously agree to), so it could sell the best weeks (Hawaii, ski, etc.) for big $$$ through its regular reservations system? This is where it could make big $$$. 

Also, why does everyone think that Marriott with its new system will suddenly love its new customers (points club) and give them all the great weeks???

I see no significant difference in trading, reserving, or anything else.  (except a HUGE case infusion from all those who join.) As someone once said, _the more things change, the more they stay the same._


----------



## tombo

wuv pooh said:


> You all keep banging this drum, but I am with Dean on this one.
> 
> I have purchased two timeshares with Marriott.  In both of them (Florida and Virginia) I had to specifically sign a document that stated:
> 
> 1. I understand that timeshares are NOT an investment, and my purchase should not be based on any perceived investment value.
> 2. I understand that I have NO right to exchange, trade for points, lock off, or do anything EXCEPT occupy my full week during one week during the season that I purchased.  My purchase should not be based on any expectation of any of this continuing.
> 3. I understand that anything that was promised to me that is not in this written contract is null and void.  During my second purchase I had to get the salesman to hand write in a promise made to me that was not in the document and get initialed by both of us.  My purchase should not be based on anything that is not written.
> 
> To claim after the fact that you did not understand this is not believable to me.  Kind of like the people who make 2,000 a month and sign up for a 5,000 a month mortgage payment.  No one forced you to make the deal, in fact the State Attorney General has done his best to make you turn down the deal and even provided you a recission period if you are stupid enough to sign the deal.
> 
> .



I have never purchased a retail week from anyone (thank goodness). I have a college degree and have taken plenty of business courses. In spite of that when I was younger and very naive I almost purchased a timeshare retail based on what the salesperson told me (not Marriott), and if I had it would (as I know now) never have done half the things the salesmen told me it would do. I dodged the bullet because of the financing costs and buyer's remorse when it was time to sign, not because the contract spelled out what I was actually buying in a clear and easy to understand manner. I could just as easily have saddled myself with a decade of payments for a timeshare in Orlando that would not have been good for me in any form or fashion. The salesman of course told me that all the legal stuff was just what all contracts contained, but the program worked exactly like it was explained to me.

People are sold timeshares believing that they are getting what they are told in the sales process. People assume that the sales people couldn't say it if it wasn't true, especially sales people who work for a reputable company like Marriott. You fault the people who believe the lies, not those telling them, which is hard to believe. 

You are correct that the disclaimers are there and make it harder to sue them since it is your word against theirs as to what you were told in the presentation. If Marriott really explained that what they were promising was a pipe dream, if during the sale they explained the reality that only a week in season is guaranteed, no exchanges, no other resorts, and no prime weeks are ever actually guaranteed,  they would rarely sell one. They sell lies and promises that are possible to deliver, but doubtful in reality. They sell lies while closing the sale with a legal contract that absolves them of all the lies they promulgated to sell their product. It is kind of like being in the Mafia, killing people as part of the business, and then by going to confession all the bad things you did go away allowing you to do them over and over again but still be able to justify your actions.

It is as I said earlier, blaming the victim for being trusting while accomodating the crook for doing immoral and illegal actions is plain wrong. The contact disclosure does not absolve them from lying to make sales. It is called fraud and misrepresentation and many timeshares have been sued for doing those things. 

Festiva paid about $340,000 to the Missouri attorney general for making sales in a false and misleading manner. http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement
Excerpt:
"The company was also accused of rushing consumers into sales by creating a high-pressure sales environment. 

Under the agreement, Festiva agreed to stop using false and misleading sales pitches to market and sell its time shares. "


Bluegreen sued for same
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=3999
Exceprt:According to the lawsuit, numerous deceptive statements were made to consumers during these presentations in an effort to get them to sign contracts immediately, including phony claims that prices would increase the next day, misrepresentations about when and where consumers could travel if they made a purchase and false statements about certain fees being waived.

Corbett said that some consumers bought vacation programs because they were told they were entitled to a one-week stay in Hawaii, only to learn afterward that the program they purchased could not be used in Hawaii."

Lawsuit against trendwest:
http://whatswrongwithwyndham.com/Uploaded/California vs Trendwest - Consent Decree.pdf

Excerpts:
"M. Materially misrepresenting the location of resorts or availability of
services.
N. Materially misrepresenting the value of vacation credits needed to
stay at a particular resort at a particular time or materially misrepresenting the
quantity of vacation credits sufficient to obtain any other benefit or service.
O. Materially misrepresenting the ability or ease with which an owner
may check the availability of a property or service, or make a reservation or
exchange vacation credits.:

It is not the way moral people or reputable businesses act or feel IMO, and yes it is still illegal to misrepresent facts to make the sale even if you have a contract with disclaimers. Fraud and misrepresentation liability does not go away because you have clauses stating that even if the company used fraudulent statements to sell their product, that they don't have to honor the sales pitches which aren't in writing. If the attorney generals in more states would send undercover agents to these presentations they could and would sue Marriott and many other companies IMO possibly stopping these deceitful sales practices. Hopefully they will sue more in the near future.


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## edge4414

*Contracts*

I find it unbelievable that so many on this board think that just because Marriott put certain disclaimers in their contract that their contracts can't be challenged in court. It would surely take deep pockets or a class action but I'm sure good lawyers in contract law could go through the contracts and find numerous clauses that could be challenged. Example;
 "Exchange Company (MVC Exchange Company] has the right to establish priority lists, lottery systems, or other alternative methods off reserving accommodations in an effort to ensure the *fair and equitable* reservations and use of accommodations during holidays, events, and other high demand periods. If implemented, access to certain use periods by a member may be restricted in a given year based upon the member's ranking in a lottery or some other allocation methodology established by Exchange Company". 
Fair and equitable means what? Let's assume weeks owners cannot get the reservations they want or have been accustomed to under the previous system. Is that fair and equitable? Could it be challenged? If there is a will there is a way to challenge if the system becomes "unfair to a group". I'm sure there are many similar vague clauses which could be challenged. I am not a Lawyer but I am familiar with contracts and believe almost anything that is vague can be challenged in court with a reasonable chance at success.


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## RBERR1

*Do certain properties have another way out?*

I own three weeks.

One Cyrpress Habour Special
One Barony Beach O/S Gold
One Sunset Pointe Summer

I am having still a tough time to figure out what to do with the points thing because it sounds like there are no straight answers about how exactly things work except there is some skimming going on and there is an upfront to join.


The question I have relates to the fact that Cypress Harbour and Sunset pointe also are RCI properties.  I am not sure if any of the others are. I am trying to figure out whether people have had luck trading these properties with RCI and did you get good value for it.  I was curious if the individual properties can make a decision to join RCI also and then it might get interesting.

The other question I have is anybody going to be asking for a special meeting of their HOA to have either vote to either offficially endorse or vote against allowing the property to become part of the program.  I know there is a clause in the docs about once you join you can't do it but I think we need to know where the majority of the owners are on this at each resort.


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## KarenP

*Is "enrollment" permanent?*

If enrollment of weeks into points ends at some point (because the enrollment is for a certain period of time), then won't everyone have to pay to enroll again?


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## SueDonJ

RBERR1 said:


> I own three weeks.
> 
> One Cyrpress Habour Special
> One Barony Beach O/S Gold
> One Sunset Pointe Summer
> 
> I am having still a tough time to figure out what to do with the points thing because it sounds like there are no straight answers about how exactly things work except there is some skimming going on and there is an upfront to join.
> 
> 
> The question I have relates to the fact that Cypress Harbour and Sunset pointe also are RCI properties.  I am not sure if any of the others are. I am trying to figure out whether people have had luck trading these properties with RCI and did you get good value for it.  I was curious if the individual properties can make a decision to join RCI also and then it might get interesting.



I can't answer about value within RCI because my resorts don't have that option.  But it's a good question, and yours is the first post I've seen that points out a third option for existing deeded Weeks owners - don't enroll with Marriott's points and hope that the exchange history with II continues, enroll with Marriott's points, or continue as is with the exchange value you've received with RCI.  I see it as the more choices an owner has, the better. 



RBERR1 said:


> The other question I have is anybody going to be asking for a special meeting of their HOA to have either vote to either offficially endorse or vote against allowing the property to become part of the program.  I know there is a clause in the docs about once you join you can't do it but I think we need to know where the majority of the owners are on this at each resort.



I don't think this option is a possibility because the resorts themselves are not enrolled in the system.  Each individual owner has to choose whether or not to enroll his/her individual week(s) into the Exchange Company, not into the Trust.

Is there an possibility for a majority of owners at one resort to vote that no owner at that resort can choose enrollment in the Points system?  I doubt it, but would like to see an attorney try to answer this.


----------



## SueDonJ

KarenP said:


> If enrollment of weeks into points ends at some point (because the enrollment is for a certain period of time), then won't everyone have to pay to enroll again?



Enrollment can be renewed annually with payment of the Club Dues, but it's unclear if it's an automatic renewal or if you have to declare renewal.  In either case, if you are un-unrolled for a period then I'd guess that if you even have the option to re-enroll, you will then pay another enrollment fee.


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## bobcat

SueDonJ said:


> Enrollment can be renewed annually with payment of the Club Dues, but it's unclear if it's an automatic renewal or if you have to declare renewal.  In either case, if you are un-unrolled for a period then I'd guess that if you even have the option to re-enroll, you will then pay another enrollment fee.



Well what do you know?.   In the mailbox was a letter from Marriott about their new points system. Nothing new. They said they would contact us to  go over the points system. We will use our week in Sept. I guess sometime before they will give us a time and place to tell us about the Marriott points system. The latest and greatest.  We will keep our week and deed. We all know the points value will go up every year to book your week. Can not wait to hear the speech. :hysterical:


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## davidvel

Interesting. Marriott can charge a fee of up to $1 per point to waive its ROFR on a sale of an interest in teh new TRUST program. So if you buy 1000 points for $9,200 it will cost you or your buyer $1,000 as an ROFR waiver fee.   Talk about devaluing your interest.


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## Dean

davidvel said:


> Not at MRD.


Haven't seen the docs there but I bet there is language that gives them the right to unilaterally make reservation changes.  Otherwise they would not have been unable to add the month reservation change to those resorts that were in existance before.



DanCali said:


> Dean,
> 
> Sales people lie. It's a fact. But you justifying lies as a means to achieve sales is puzzling to me and I don't know how to react to that.
> 
> I do honor my commitments. I pay my MFs... Your statement


Some sales lie, many do not and with Marriott I'd say most don't.  I'd make a big difference between slanting to the positives and glossing over the negatives rather than truly lying, I think the latter is relatively rare with Marriott.  There's more to honoring the commitment than just paying fees.  It includes taking responsibility for the documents you signed and/or took responbilility for on purchase including the one that says verbal issues are not binding.





> I also don't understand how you can justify a company telling people (verbally of course) that a product appreciates and the devising various schemes intended to purposely depreciate that same product just to increase their profits. If your timeshare is worth zero to you - I'll buy from you for a couple hundred dollars. If it's worth more than zero, you should care - it affects you as well.


Caring about the outcome is a different discussion IMO.  I have hopes, expectations and realities in timeshares, they are all quite different.  BTW, for most Marriott purchases, you also signed papers including a clause that specifically acknowledges that you are not expecting resale appeciation or rentals.  To me this comes down to reading the paperwork and giving precedence to the info included there over verbals.  



tombo said:


> I can't beleieve that you condone the blatant systemic use of lies to sell timeshares as an acceptable business practice because there is a clause in the contract stating that no promises or claims made verbally are binding. If it was your retired parents they lied to and sold a week, I guess that would be OK even if they were older and not at the top of their mental game. If they sell your wet behind the ears children based on lies and put your children into debt for 30 years, it is OK because your children shouldn't have been so stupid and uneducated in the ways of business. You would probably call it a learning experience you are glad marriott taught them the hard way. I guess Marriott and Bernie Madoff can employ the same sales tactics of lies, mistatements, and half truths, and if only Bernie had been as legally smart as Marriott and got the buyers to sign a contract relieving him of all responsibility for verbal promises, then he would just be doing business with people who deserved to be ripped off too. Do you feel that con men who can find a way to legally protect themselves from prosecution by using a legal contract voiding all verbal  promises and statements they made are simply good businessmen?
> 
> People do not DESERVE to be sold one thing in a sales presentation which is in reality far different than what they actually own when they sign the contract. To infer that customers who aren't  business and contract savy deserve to be ripped off is ridiculous. That is like the woman in a short skirt who is raped being at fault for wearing the short skirt or having too many drinks. Don't blame the victim for being a victim, blame Marriott for preying on people who don't know better. People go to a sales presentation, they are promised that they can get Hawaii every year, that they are locking in a lifetime of vacations at todays prices,that buying this timeshare will save them 10 times what it costs to buy it, they are promised that what they are buying will have one of the highest resale values in the industry, and the sales staff and Marriott know all of that is a lie, yet they tell the lies every day to sell timeshares. They operate selling timeshares promising many things that aren't true, but it is OK since when it comes time to sign the contract all verbal promises and descriptions they used to sell the timeshare are now null and void.
> 
> I don't do business that way, I don't condone businesses which operate in such a manner, and I am shocked that anyone  feels that selling in such a manner, whether legal or not, is an acceptable business practice. I guess anything you can do which is legal is acceptable to you no matter whether it is moral or right.
> 
> If it happened to a relative of yours, whether the misleading sale was made by Marriott or any other company, I bet you would feel differently. I can't imagine anyone looking their children or parents in the eye after falling vicitm to a sham of a sales presentation and saying it is your fault, you were stupid, you trusted the sales person, rather than blaming the sales person for misleading your parents/kids into buying something that wasn't close to what they were told they were buying. Perhaps you can without any qualms look strangers and/or family in the eye and say you screwed up, it is your fault, and now you must take responsibility for your legal contract you signed based on lies and half truths you were told by the sales dept. If you have no qualms treating people in such a manner, perhaps you should sell for Marriott because if you only care about what is legal with no regards to morality, there is a bunch of money to be made.


See my info earlier in this post.  The truth is that if these issues are a reality in timeshares, if they bother people that much, they really shouldn't be involved.  It's not a question of condoning the info you quote but rather giving the contractual information the lead by about 98%.  The buyer is responsible for understanding what they're getting into.  As I've said many times, as a group timeshares sales are at or below the level of used car sales.


----------



## Dean

Bunk said:


> I'd like to comment on Dean's comment:   "We've already established that verbal agreements are not binding. I think people have to get over the timeshare sales rhetoric and start taking responsibility for the agreements they signed up for legally."
> 
> The conclusion that verbal lying is OK because verbal lies do not create binding contracts is terribly cynical and will excuse all types of dishonest behavior in our business and personal relationships.


It may be cynica in your viewl but it is 100% accurate.  To me it is simply realistic.  Hopefully anyone thinking of buying in to a timeshare will learn this here and not the hard way.



dioxide45 said:


> Foreclosed weeks due to delinquent MF don't become property of Marriott, they belong to the HOA.


I would expedect an agreement to buy them or sell as points for a fee since Marriott itself will apparently no longer be selling weeks.


----------



## timeos2

RBERR1 said:


> The question I have relates to the fact that Cypress Harbour and Sunset pointe also are RCI properties.  I am not sure if any of the others are. I am trying to figure out whether people have had luck trading these properties with RCI and did you get good value for it.  I was curious if the individual properties can make a decision to join RCI also and then it might get interesting.



Two positives with the RCI connection - two potential negatives. First the RCI option is a good one. It creates one additional option for exchange that most Marriott owners aren't lucky enough to have. Because of that relatively low amount of deposits they carry a high exchange value (big demand, low supply in that system). Second RCI will accept ONLY what you own for deposit. No games of substituting a similar week. You get to deposit exactly what you purchased/owned.  Ask Wastegate owners how important THAT is.  Wastegate also went down the path of substituting lesser weeks for deposit to II rather than the deeded time actually due to the owner. It is so sad to Marriott now sinking to that lowlife action. 

The downsides have to be considered as well. You pay to be an RCI member (not so bad if you have other weeks in RCI as one fee covers them all)  but you can drop your II fees so that makes up for a good portion of that fee. Plus there is the extremely member unfriendly court finding that allows RCI to rent owner deposits for TRADE to be redirected to rentals after a very short window of trade only being allowed. That has really ruined the RCI Weeks system as a long term option unless you don't mind that the best times may be siphoned off to rentals after only 30 days. Move quickly if you use RCI to get the best trades - wait a few days to claim a trade & it may be gone to rental.  

Overall, for now, RCI may be the superior choice for those Marriott resorts that can be used there.


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## tombo

Dean said:


> There's more to honoring the commitment than just paying fees.  It includes taking responsibility for the documents you signed and/or took responbilility for on purchase including the one that says verbal issues are not binding.
> 
> 
> 
> Caring about the outcome is a different discussion IMO.  I have hopes, expectations and realities in timeshares, they are all quite different.  BTW, for most Marriott purchases, you also signed papers including a clause that specifically acknowledges that you are not expecting resale appeciation or rentals.  To me this comes down to reading the paperwork and giving precedence to the info included there over verbals.
> 
> See my info earlier in this post.  The truth is that if these issues are a reality in timeshares, if they bother people that much, they really shouldn't be involved.  It's not a question of condoning the info you quote but rather giving the contractual information the lead by about 98%.  The buyer is responsible for understanding what they're getting into.  As I've said many times, as a group timeshares sales are at or below the level of used car sales.





I am not involved with retail timeshare sales, I hopefully will not go to another 90 minute "lie fest"  just to receive a gift,  but in spite of the fact that they might not impact me personally, I do have empathy for those who fall victim to the high pressure informative tour they attended on a whim. I feel bad for the 1000's who on vacation are lured into a "non sales presentation" for a product they weren't interested in buying, lied to about the product, sold, and by the time they return home the recission period has passed and they are stuck with a product that won't do many of the things they were told it would do in the sales presentation.

 Most people do not understand what they are buying or they wouldn't buy. You can't try it out before you buy it like a car. You assume everything in the II book is yours to get because as the salesman said, Marriott is the strongest brand in II, and it will get any trade you want. Plus Marriott has internal trade advantage through II, so you are buying a week that will get you the vacations you want anywhere in the world just as they said. The fact that you can trade through II  and the fact that you get internal trade advantages are in writing, so it is true when they said that exchanging a Marriott week will get you what you want. Months later you try to reserve and find that many things you were promised are not available. Now you can't get out of the contract, you call the sales rep and they say hey we never promised you that (even though they did). Read your contract. It is now the customers fault for believing the lies, not the developer's fault for telling them lies to make a sale. It is blaming the victim for being a victim. It is saying that the sales staff has no resposibility to actually deliver on what they sell during the presentation, but the customer has to deliver on what they sign.That makes no sense.

Is Marriott better than most? Sure. However I have been told plenty of things in Marriott presentations I know aren't true. I have the benefit of years of experience with timeshares and TUG while most who attend presentations have no personal point of reference other than what the salesmen promise.

Yes timeshare sales techniques are notoriously crooked, high pressure events savvy business people know to avoid and say no to. That is what makes it the most disconcerting. The ones who are least educated and informed are the ones they successfully prey upon. 

As you said these issues are reality.  Fraud and misrepresentation in timeshare sales is reality, and it is illegal too. Just because it is reality does not make it something that people should condone or simply ignore.


----------



## tombo

Dean said:


> It may be cynica in your viewl but it is 100% accurate.  To me it is simply realistic.  Hopefully anyone thinking of buying in to a timeshare will learn this here and not the hard way.
> 
> .



Fraud and misrepresentation in a sales presentation is illegal no matter what the contract states at closing. If you read one of my previous posts I have specific cases where attorney generals sued Festiva, Bluegreen, and Trendwest for using false, misleading, and deceptive statements to sell timeshares. Yes developers get away with it day after day, but the difference between being sued because what they are doing is illegal and the act being illegal is 2 different things. People sell drugs on the street corner every day and it is illegal, but more often than not they get away with it for a long time before being prosecuted. The main problem is the developers won't let you record the sales presentation, so it comes down to your word against theirs if you do try to sue. In addition hiring an attorney is cost prohibitive. If more attorney generals activelly pursued criminal charges and law suits against developers for fraud and misrepresentation, perhaps some of the lies could be stopped. 

Make no mistake, to sell a product using lies, misrepresentation, and outright fraud is illegal and the contract doesn not absolve them of their legal responsibility to factually sell their product.


----------



## Dean

tombo said:


> As you said these issues are reality.  Fraud and misrepresentation in timeshare sales is reality, and it is illegal too. Just because it is reality does not make it something that people should condone or simply ignore.


The question is is it illegal and can you prove it.  I am not unsympathetic to those taken advantage of but they have to take most of the responsibilty in such a situation when they signed (or assumed responsiblity with resale) for a contract that includes specific info. I personally would not rely on class action suites to protect my own interest.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> BTW, for most Marriott purchases, you also signed papers including a clause that specifically acknowledges that you are not expecting resale appeciation or rentals.  To me this comes down to reading the paperwork and giving precedence to the info included there over verbals.



So how is buying a Marriott timeshare different from buying Google stock? Because if I read the Google prospectus, it sounds like a terrible buy...

*Risks related to IPO *



> •Our stock price could decline rapidly and significantly.
> 
> •The auction process for our public offering may result in a phenomenon known as the “winner’s curse,” and, as a result, investors may experience significant losses.
> 
> •The auction process for our initial public offering may result in a situation in which less price sensitive investors play a larger role in the determination of our offering price and constitute a larger portion of the investors in our offering, and, therefore, the offering price may not be sustainable once trading of our Class A common stock begins.
> 
> •Successful bidders should not expect to sell our shares for a profit shortly after our Class A common stock begins trading.
> 
> •Our initial public offering price may have little or no relationship to the price that would be established using traditional valuation methods, and therefore, the initial public offering price may not be sustainable once trading begins.
> 
> •If research analysts publish or establish target prices for our Class A common stock that are below the initial public offering price or then current trading market price of our shares, the price of our shares of Class A common stock may fall.
> 
> •Our stock price may be volatile, and you may not be able to resell shares of our Class A common stock at or above the price you paid.
> 
> •Future sales of shares by our stockholders could cause our stock price to decline.



Never mind - I think know the diference. Google management try to create value for shareholders while Marriott management work hard to purposely destroy value for owners and then hide behind boilerplate clauses that if anyone would always take seriously they wouldn't buy any asset.

I could are less about those clauses and what they say (and I didn't buy from Marriott to begin with). What I do care about is WHY the asset depreciates. If it's the economy, that's fully understandable. If it's Marriott creating new rules that are purposely designed to destroy value, shame on them. And I'm happy to share my opinion about Marriott with anyone interested in buying from them.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> So how is buying a Marriott timeshare different from buying Google stock? Because if I read the Google prospectus, it sounds like a terrible buy...
> 
> *Risks related to IPO *
> 
> 
> 
> Never mind - I think know the diference. Google management try to create value for shareholders while Marriott management work hard to purposely destroy value for owners and then hide behind boilerplate clauses that if anyone would always take seriously they wouldn't buy any asset.
> 
> I could are less about those clauses and what they say (and I didn't buy from Marriott to begin with). What I do care about is WHY the asset depreciates. If it's the economy, that's fully understandable. If it's Marriott creating new rules that are purposely designed to destroy value, shame on them. And I'm happy to share my opinion about Marriott with anyone interested in buying from them.


In many ways the principles are the same between stocks and timeshares but the realities are often different.  Enron or Worldcom might have been better stock comparisons for your point though.  You would take the risk that Google would fail and if it did, so would the value of the shareholders.  However, there is a fundamental difference between stock and timeshare.  With a stock, the value to both groups are linked, this not necessarily true for timeshares at least looking at resale value.  I realize you're picking the legal/contractual pieces you want to accept and those you do not.  Buying resale you legally assume the risks signed up for by the original owner.

I don't think resale will be nearly as bad as some do and it may actually be better for many options.  What Marriott has done is define the true value of the lower demand weeks/resorts so the spread may be even better than before.  IMO I think some of the low season options were over priced because of the anticipated internal trading option.


----------



## tombo

Dean said:


> I don't think resale will be nearly as bad as some do and it may actually be better for many options.  What Marriott has done is define the true value of the lower demand weeks/resorts so the spread may be even better than before.  IMO I think some of the low season options were over priced because of the anticipated internal trading option.



Low demand weeks were always of low "real" value although some used them to get great trades. However using points Marriott can sell low demand seasons/weeks/resorts and get top dollar for them by selling them as points. 

If a dog season is assigned 1900 points, Marriott can sell an owner 3 of those yellow weeks out of it's trust or allow owners to convert 3 yellow weeks into points getting the points member 5700 annual points which is enough to get you most good weeks/seasons. Now instead of good inventory in-good inventory out, or bad inventory in-bad inventory out like it was using weeks, using points you can put all bad inventory in and have enough points to take good inventory out.

 Points is points. No matter what week(s) are actually deposited into exchange inventory for the points given, the resulting points can be exchanged for any good inventory the points member can afford. If enough people buy large numbers of points based on yellow weeks inventory (and/or convert their yellow week inventory), you will see a huge crunch as increased numbers of owners are able to reserve prime inventory whether they actually deposited a prime week, or a group of dog weeks. Few points members will want to spend their expensive points on the dog weeks deposited for the points they receive. Most members will try to use their points for the better weeks, and the shortage of access to prime weeks will eventually get much worse because as I said, points is points. 

Grinning all the way to the bank is Marriott who invented a way to bundle dog weeks into a prime points packages allowing new members to reserve the best weeks without Marriot having to add a single week/resort to the Marriott system. Now the dog inventory marriott was saddled with has instead become worth millions of points to sell to new members. With dog weeks and points Marriott can offer people access to anything Marriott has, even access to 13 month advance reservations trumping any prime week owned if one wants to buy enough dog weeks (oops points) to give them Platinum plus status.


----------



## Dean

tombo said:


> Low demand weeks were always of low "real" value although some used them to get great trades. However using points Marriott can sell low demand seasons/weeks/resorts and get top dollar for them by selling them as points.
> 
> If a dog season is assigned 1900 points, Marriott can sell an owner 3 of those yellow weeks out of it's trust or allow owners to convert 3 yellow weeks into points getting the points member 5700 annual points which is enough to get you most good weeks/seasons. Now instead of good inventory in-good inventory out, or bad inventory in-bad inventory out like it was using weeks, using points you can put all bad inventory in and have enough points to take good inventory out.
> 
> Points is points. No matter what week(s) are actually deposited into exchange inventory for the points given, the resulting points can be exchanged for any good inventory the points member can afford. If enough people buy large numbers of points based on yellow weeks inventory (and/or convert their yellow week inventory), you will see a huge crunch as increased numbers of owners are able to reserve prime inventory whether they actually deposited a prime week, or a group of dog weeks. Few points members will want to spend their expensive points on the dog weeks deposited for the points they receive. Most members will try to use their points for the better weeks, and the shortage of access to prime weeks will eventually get much worse because as I said, points is points.
> 
> Grinning all the way to the bank is Marriott who invented a way to bundle dog weeks into a prime points packages allowing new members to reserve the best weeks without Marriot having to add a single week/resort to the Marriott system. Now the dog inventory marriott was saddled with has instead become worth millions of points to sell to new members. With dog weeks and points Marriott can offer people access to anything Marriott has, even access to 13 month advance reservations trumping any prime week owned if one wants to buy enough dog weeks (oops points) to give them Platinum plus status.


I think off season Marriott weeks have often been over priced, at least until the current economics came into play.  Even at $1500, a Bronze equivalent HP week was overpriced IMO largely because people were buying to use for Marriott to Marriott trades off season and flexchange.  Selling off season weeks as if they're high season points is simply the nature of points programs, a point that was made several times on the before thread by those on both sides of this isle. IMO Marriott was behind on creating this points program, it's something they should have done 5-6 years ago.  However, as I've noted, I do disagree with some of the how it was done.  I would have preferred a progam more like DVC.


----------



## GeezerGreg

*What a great way to generate profit*

The new points system is an ingenious way for Marriott to increase the top and bottom line of their timeshare business in a down market.  This is accomplished by using creative ways to convert and increase their core product at little to no cost and to increase fees collected from existing customers.

How does Marriott create more usable inventory (points) from people who retain weeks?
Answer: Marriott is now able to dump inventory of units it cannot sell/trade into II and in return Marriott will poach the best weeks from II (in HI.) Get ready for a bunch of availability in Marco Island through II. In Addition Marriott can trade in weeks of low point value for those of higher point value and I doubt Marriott will stand behind or even shoulder to shoulder with other owners who have in the past acquired these weeks through II.

How does Marriott create more usable inventory (points) from people who convert to weeks?
Answer: Due to the fact that very few resorts have points value equal to what they rent for (ie a Plat 2BR at MMC converts into  2375 points and rents for 2900) Marriott will create about 20% value when week owners convert.  Thus for every 5 owners they can convert to Destination Points they can sell another new member a points membership of equal value.  It really is like printing money for them.

What about fees?
Answer:  Marriott will charge all members $165 annually for a system that incrementally costs them next to nothing.  In addition they probably already have negotiated a bulk rate with II that gives them additional leverage and costs them much less than the fees they will collect.

Why are they doing this?
Answer: Marriott has very smart business leaders and saw an opportunity to create a product that will make them tons of money whether a significant number of people uses it or not.  They created a new product that allows their customers to break the week product they purchased into days and created a method in which they could sell this new customers.  It also allows them to open the door to new opportunities where they can partner with other products they operate on the travel and hotel side of their business.

Who loses?
1) Owners who buy into the hype and promises from the sales staff and convert while not utilizing the new features of the points. For example someone who converts their week then has to use two of their weeks to get one week.
2) Owners who bought lockouts under the promise of 2 weeks and end up converting to points lose the additional value / cost associated with the lockout.
3) Owners who typically traded through II to get higher point value / larger units 

Who wins?
1) Marriott
2) Anyone who has a high point resort who traded into low point locations through II without taking advantage of the AC program. 
3) People who never had a full week open to use their week.

The ugly side
One more note is that where potential profit exists business can and historically have done things to make quick profits on the backs of existing customers.  My main concerns with the current setup is the potential for the following:
1) Marriott front running trades through II.
2) Marriott over selling points (selling more points than is available to book)
3) Marriott adding hidden fees in the form of housekeeping credits, ...
4) Marriott ramping up special assessments and maintenance fees for weeks owners in order to make them into convert.
5) Marriott renting 'unused' days in the points inventory.
6) Marriott forcing members to pay to extend points expiration or purchase addition points in order to book a vacation.


----------



## detjason

*The good and the bad*

Altough I must admit I havent read the 1,569 replies to this post, this is an update from my June 25 prediction (among others) that this new point system benefits new customers and penalizes existing owners.  Although I am sure what I am about to say has been previously predicted or imagined in previous posts, allow this to be my two cents to add or detract from the good vs. bad debate.  I will preface my opinions with this.  I am a Marriott fan and continue to be.  I am not bashing them or criticizing their marketing decisions in principle, but I am evaluating these changes based on my self-interest and the "bang for my buck" that I have enjoyed for 10 years.  

I own one week that I purchased from Marriott and two weeks that I purchased on the resale market, all 2BRs (Orlando, Vail and Hilton Head).  My Orlando property alone has allowed me to travel to Hawaiii 8 out of the last 10 years via an II trade.  With a little flexibility, I have ALWAYS received the trade I was requested from II, including Aruba, Vail, Newport Beach, Boston, Lake Tahoe, Las Vegas, etc.  This includes multiple trips to those locations as well as getting two seperate villas during the same periods for other family members.  For example, last week I had an oceanview 2br at the Waiohai in Kaui and a second 2br at Kauai beach Club oceanfront for my guests.  This will be impossible with the points unless I save all three of my weeks for 5+ years, which would cost me $15,000 in maintenance fees for what I just accomplished with $1700 in maintenance fees.

I went to the Marriott presentation about the new point system in Kauai last week.  The sales manager confirmed what I thought and that the old way of trading through Interval for other Marriott properties will eventually be difficult, if not impossible.  I didnt even ask him how it would affect me.  His actual sales pitch was basically "I hope you enjoyed the ride, because its over."  I am not exagerating.  

He said repeatedly that "corporate" was upset about how so many people were benefiting from the resale market and that Marriott was missing out on that action.  Needless to say, I didnt shed a tear that it wasnt sufficient that Marriott made hundreds of millions of dollars on the initial sale of there properties, but wanted to keep doing so in perpetuity.

The bottom line for those of us that have been enjoying the best timeshare program in the industry was "if you want to keep playing, you have to start paying."  Again, this is not an exageration.  He was very specific in explaining the desire that "corporate" had for pulling the rug out from owners who purchased on the resale market and to create a system that forces second hand owners to pay to play.  In doing so, they also pulled the rug out from those who had purchased from Marriott and didnt pay top dollar for Hawaii or its equivalent.

The second motivation of course for Marriott is that instead of running out of villas to sell, they can sell points for eternity.  I honestly do not know how they can guarantee that the system will not become gridlocked by selling points.  With weeks, it was an easy formula.  They could sell each villa 52 times and there was virtually no way to oversell a property.  But with points, I would argue the opposite; there is no way to know if a property overwhelmed with reservations and gridlockedup for years.  But Marriott's desire to increase profits isnt even my issue nor is it productive in this discussion about whether to join or not join the new point system.

There are a few pieces of good news if you join the point system.

1.  You can still "try" to trade through Interval like we normally do.  I originally didnt realize that the traditional Interval trade for a full week at another Marriott week is still an option.  So you dont lose this option, you just gain the option of using points.  Currently, we have three options every year (occupy, exchange with II, exchange for MR points).  The new point system allegedly creates a 4th option, leaving other options untouched.

2.  The second piece of good news, which is small, is that the new annual $165 to $199 club dues will cover your Interval dues and that internal Marriott exchanges will be free.  This is especially a deal if you own more than one week or have a lock off.

The other "advantages" of staying less than one week at a property arent really attractive to me, but I guess adding days to a traditional 7 night stay is more appealing.

Lastly, according to the MVCI website, the weeks of traditional owners who DO NOT join the point system will remain in the II inventory and not be available to the point members.  Although this sounds fishy to me, I guess we have to trust this statement.  Although this seems like good news because we can expect "some" inventory remaining with II, we also know the opposite is true that the 41,000 owners that have signed up for the new points will NOT be available in the II inventory that we used to use.    

In the end, I will be joining the club to "test drive" it, but I wont be buying anymore points.  I may just convert the week I bought from Marriott to points to see how I like it and leave the others as traders with II.  However, this will force me to have to seperate II memberships and dues.  I do believe enrollment fees will go up an the incentive to enroll of 800 points will disappear.

I think that my opportunity to travel to places like Hawaii will decrease no matter what I do.  I refuse to buy more points, there is no value for me in that.


----------



## dioxide45

detjason said:


> Altough I must admit I havent read the 1,569 replies to this post, this is an update from my June 25 prediction (among others) that this new point system benefits new customers and penalizes existing owners.  Although I am sure what I am about to say has been previously predicted or imagined in previous posts, allow this to be my two cents to add or detract from the good vs. bad debate.  I will preface my opinions with this.  I am a Marriott fan and continue to be.  I am not bashing them or criticizing their marketing decisions in principle, but I am evaluating these changes based on my self-interest and the "bang for my buck" that I have enjoyed for 10 years.
> 
> I own one week that I purchased from Marriott and two weeks that I purchased on the resale market, all 2BRs (Orlando, Vail and Hilton Head).  My Orlando property alone has allowed me to travel to Hawaiii 8 out of the last 10 years via an II trade.  With a little flexibility, I have ALWAYS received the trade I was requested from II, including Aruba, Vail, Newport Beach, Boston, Lake Tahoe, Las Vegas, etc.  This includes multiple trips to those locations as well as getting two seperate villas during the same periods for other family members.  For example, last week I had an oceanview 2br at the Waiohai in Kaui and a second 2br at Kauai beach Club oceanfront for my guests.  This will be impossible with the points unless I save all three of my weeks for 5+ years, which would cost me $15,000 in maintenance fees for what I just accomplished with $1700 in maintenance fees.
> 
> I went to the Marriott presentation about the new point system in Kauai last week.  The sales manager confirmed what I thought and that the old way of trading through Interval for other Marriott properties will eventually be difficult, if not impossible.  I didnt even ask him how it would affect me.  His actual sales pitch was basically "I hope you enjoyed the ride, because its over."  I am not exagerating.



No one knows how II inventory will be affected, not even that sales person you spoke with. So they didn't really confirm anything. They just wanted to create the sense of fear. A great selling tool. The ride will likely still continue for many years to come.



> He said repeatedly that "corporate" was upset about how so many people were benefiting from the resale market and that Marriott was missing out on that action.  Needless to say, I didnt shed a tear that it wasnt sufficient that Marriott made hundreds of millions of dollars on the initial sale of there properties, but wanted to keep doing so in perpetuity.



Corporate was only upset about one thing and it wasn't about people benefiting off the current system and "taking advantage". They were upset about all of the unsold inventory that they couldn't unload in the current economic environment. The system wasn't setup to punish current owners, it was setup to clean the books of inventory that was costing the company money.



> The bottom line for those of us that have been enjoying the best timeshare program in the industry was "if you want to keep playing, you have to start paying."  Again, this is not an exageration.  He was very specific in explaining the desire that "corporate" had for pulling the rug out from owners who purchased on the resale market and to create a system that forces second hand owners to pay to play.  In doing so, they also pulled the rug out from those who had purchased from Marriott and didnt pay top dollar for Hawaii or its equivalent.
> 
> The second motivation of course for Marriott is that instead of running out of villas to sell, they can sell points for eternity.  I honestly do not know how they can guarantee that the system will not become gridlocked by selling points.  With weeks, it was an easy formula.  They could sell each villa 52 times and there was virtually no way to oversell a property.  But with points, I would argue the opposite; there is no way to know if a property overwhelmed with reservations and gridlockedup for years.  But Marriott's desire to increase profits isnt even my issue nor is it productive in this discussion about whether to join or not join the new point system.



Marriott can not sell points in perpetuity. There are only a certain number of points in the new trust (about 40 million). Once that is gone they have to find new ways to get new inventory, either by buying weeks back and conveying them to the trust, or by building new resorts and placing them in the trust. The points are deeded just like the weeks are and there are controls there to prevent them from selling more points than they have inventory to support. Gridlock can still happen if they sell all the points on the premise of booking prime weeks, since only so many prime weeks exist there will be disappointed owners who can't get what they were "promised".



> There are a few pieces of good news if you join the point system.
> 
> 1.  You can still "try" to trade through Interval like we normally do.  I originally didnt realize that the traditional Interval trade for a full week at another Marriott week is still an option.  So you dont lose this option, you just gain the option of using points.  Currently, we have three options every year (occupy, exchange with II, exchange for MR points).  The new point system allegedly creates a 4th option, leaving other options untouched.
> 
> 2.  The second piece of good news, which is small, is that the new annual $165 to $199 club dues will cover your Interval dues and that internal Marriott exchanges will be free.  This is especially a deal if you own more than one week or have a lock off.
> 
> The other "advantages" of staying less than one week at a property arent really attractive to me, but I guess adding days to a traditional 7 night stay is more appealing.
> 
> Lastly, according to the MVCI website, the weeks of traditional owners who DO NOT join the point system will remain in the II inventory and not be available to the point members.  Although this sounds fishy to me, I guess we have to trust this statement.  Although this seems like good news because we can expect "some" inventory remaining with II, we also know the opposite is true that the 41,000 owners that have signed up for the new points will NOT be available in the II inventory that we used to use.



Weeks deposited in to II by enrolled and non enrolled owners will be there for all members. Marriott has the ability to exchange for those weeks also in order to fulfill points requests.



> In the end, I will be joining the club to "test drive" it, but I wont be buying anymore points.  I may just convert the week I bought from Marriott to points to see how I like it and leave the others as traders with II.  However, this will force me to have to seperate II memberships and dues.  I do believe enrollment fees will go up an the incentive to enroll of 800 points will disappear.
> 
> I think that my opportunity to travel to places like Hawaii will decrease no matter what I do.  I refuse to buy more points, there is no value for me in that.


As I said before, Hawaii will still be doable in the future just as it is today.


----------



## DanCali

detjason said:


> ...I went to the Marriott presentation about the new point system in Kauai last week.  The sales manager confirmed what I thought and that the old way of trading through Interval for other Marriott properties will eventually be difficult, if not impossible.
> 
> ...
> In the end, I will be joining the club to "test drive" it, but I wont be buying anymore points.  I may just convert the week I bought from Marriott to points to see how I like it and leave the others as traders with II.  However, this will force me to have to seperate II memberships and dues.  I do believe enrollment fees will go up an the incentive to enroll of 800 points will disappear.



Would you be joining the club is the salesperson had said what Marriott itself is saying - that if you don't enroll you can use your week as always and the program will have no impact on you? Considering the salesperson is commission driven, I would not give assign salesperson more credibility than the corporation he works for.

The sales person used one of the oldest sales tactics in the book - FUD. Also, here is a list of of a few tactics employed by car salesmen... did you encounter any of these tactics in your presentation?

As for test driving the program - you can save the money and hassle. Read the threads from the first couple of days when people made reservations and learn from Tuggers' experiences - for now, it certainly doesn't drive like a Rolls Royce... Maybe it will in the future and maybe it won't -


----------



## windje2000

detjason said:


> . . .
> 
> His actual sales pitch was basically "I hope you enjoyed the ride, because its over."  I am not exagerating.
> 
> *He said repeatedly that "corporate" was upset about how so many people were benefiting from the resale market and that Marriott was missing out on that action.* *Did you ask him why MArriott sold a product that declined in value by 75-90%  Did you ask him how buying a second hand ANYTHING at the prevailing market price affects the producer?  Maybe that used Beemer you bought affected BMW, or that second hand house affected Toll Brothers. *  Needless to say, I didnt shed a tear that it wasnt sufficient that Marriott made hundreds of millions of dollars on the initial sale of there properties, but wanted to keep doing so in perpetuity.
> 
> The bottom line for those of us that have been enjoying the best timeshare program in the industry was *"if you want to keep playing, you have to start paying."*  Again, this is not an exageration.  He was very specific in explaining the desire that "corporate" had for pulling the rug out from owners who purchased on the resale market and to *create a system that forces second hand owners to pay to play.*  In doing so, they also pulled the rug out from those who had purchased from Marriott and didnt pay top dollar for Hawaii or its equivalent.  *How about those who bought developer weeks? Those weeks are being treated pretty much like resales.  Remember - All weeks were once developer weeks!*
> 
> The second motivation of course for Marriott is that instead of running out of villas to sell, they can sell points for eternity.  *Actually they can't - there are blue sky and/or fraud statutes to prevent that.  *  I honestly do not know how they can guarantee that the system will not become gridlocked by selling points.  With weeks, it was an easy formula.  They could sell each villa 52 times and there was virtually no way to oversell a property.  But with points, I would argue the opposite; there is no way to know if a property overwhelmed with reservations and gridlockedup for years.  But Marriott's desire to increase profits isnt even my issue nor is it productive in this discussion about whether to join or not join the new point system.
> 
> There are a few pieces of good news if you join the point system.
> 
> 1.  You can still "try" to trade through Interval like we normally do.  I originally didnt realize that the traditional Interval trade for a full week at another Marriott week is still an option.  So you dont lose this option, you just gain the option of using points.  Currently, we have three options every year (occupy, exchange with II, exchange for MR points).  The new point system allegedly creates a 4th option, leaving other options untouched.
> 
> 2.  The second piece of good news, which is small, is that the new annual $165 to $199 club dues will cover your Interval dues and that internal Marriott exchanges will be free.  This is especially a deal if you own more than one week or have a lock off.  *You think that fee benefit will last forever?  Didn't the salesman just tell you they are out to 'make the resale buyer pay to play?*
> 
> The other "advantages" of staying less than one week at a property arent really attractive to me, but I guess adding days to a traditional 7 night stay is more appealing.
> 
> Lastly, according to the MVCI website, the weeks of traditional owners who DO NOT join the point system will remain in the II inventory and not be available to the point members.  *If NOBODY joins and/or nobody who joins elects points, nothing will happen to II.*  Although this sounds fishy to me, I guess we have to trust this statement.  Although this seems like good news because we can expect "some" inventory remaining with II, we also know the opposite is true that the 41,000 owners that have signed up for the new points will NOT be available in the II inventory that we used to use.   *I Don't believe that 41,000 statistic and those who enrolled are not all going for points *
> 
> In the end, I will be joining the club to "test drive" it, but I wont be buying anymore points.  I may just convert the week I bought from Marriott to points to see how I like it and leave the others as traders with II.  However, this will force me to have to seperate II memberships and dues.  I do believe enrollment fees will go up an the incentive to enroll of 800 points will disappear.
> 
> I think that my opportunity to travel to places like Hawaii will decrease no matter what I do.  I refuse to buy more points, there is no value for me in that.



There's so much inconsistency and BS here its almost funny.

There's such a large number of original owners relative to DClub enrollees and points buyers that the effect on II will be seen years from now if at all.  

Good luck on your test drives and enjoy your plus points and fee benefits as long as they last.  They are the sole reasons to join.


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## sparty

detjason said:


> 2.  The second piece of good news, which is small, is that the new annual $165 to $199 club dues will cover your Interval dues and that internal Marriott exchanges will be free.  This is especially a deal if you own more than one week or have a lock off.



Not to get hung up on semantics, but not all internal exchanges are free.  For example, get a week 53 at your home resort and trade it. Have to deposit to interval and pay the fees...


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## mas

dioxide45 said:


> ...Marriott can not sell points in perpetuity. There are only a certain number of points in the new trust (about 40 million)...



Do you mind if I ask how you came up with the 40 million points figure?


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## DanCali

mas said:


> Do you mind if I ask how you came up with the 40 million points figure?



See post #21 in this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124949


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## sparty

timeos2 said:


> Two positives with the RCI connection - two potential negatives. First the RCI option is a good one. It creates one additional option for exchange that most Marriott owners aren't lucky enough to have. Because of that relatively low amount of deposits they carry a high exchange value (big demand, low supply in that system). Second RCI will accept ONLY what you own for deposit. No games of substituting a similar week. You get to deposit exactly what you purchased/owned.  Ask Wastegate owners how important THAT is.  Wastegate also went down the path of substituting lesser weeks for deposit to II rather than the deeded time actually due to the owner. It is so sad to Marriott now sinking to that lowlife action.
> 
> The downsides have to be considered as well. You pay to be an RCI member (not so bad if you have other weeks in RCI as one fee covers them all)  but you can drop your II fees so that makes up for a good portion of that fee. Plus there is the extremely member unfriendly court finding that allows RCI to rent owner deposits for TRADE to be redirected to rentals after a very short window of trade only being allowed. That has really ruined the RCI Weeks system as a long term option unless you don't mind that the best times may be siphoned off to rentals after only 30 days. Move quickly if you use RCI to get the best trades - wait a few days to claim a trade & it may be gone to rental.
> 
> Overall, for now, RCI may be the superior choice for those Marriott resorts that can be used there.



Just wondering if any Marriott owners has used RCI points?  I've (Marriott Cypress owner, no other RCI affiliation) never converted a week to RCI points but it is my understanding you can do so.. seems a very similar process to MVCD legacy weeks.


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## detjason

dioxide45 said:


> No one knows how II inventory will be affected, not even that sales person you spoke with. So they didn't really confirm anything. They just wanted to create the sense of fear. A great selling tool. The ride will likely still continue for many years to come.
> 
> As I said before, Hawaii will still be doable in the future just as it is today.



First you say that no one knows how II inventory will be effected, then you say Hawaii will still be doable as it always has?  We are all speculating, including you and me.

Other than that contradiction, I appreciate the rest of your reply was informative.  Thanks.


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## detjason

windje2000 said:


> If NOBODY joins and/or nobody who joins elects points, nothing will happen to II.



I wish they wouldnt join, but they will.  Do you really think that these sales tactics arent effective?  They worked the first time didnt they?

By enrolling one of my weeks and keeping two weeks out of the program, I will have access to both programs.  It will cost a bit more to have two II memberships, but it will give me access to both inventories.


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## detjason

RBERR1 said:


> I own three weeks.
> The question I have relates to the fact that Cypress Harbour and Sunset pointe also are RCI properties.  I am not sure if any of the others are. I am trying to figure out whether people have had luck trading these properties with RCI and did you get good value for it.  I was curious if the individual properties can make a decision to join RCI also and then it might get interesting.



RCI is a joke.  Remember, there are no Marriott properties in RCI available to trade into.  I have had high-end Hawaii weeks with RCI, but now only have a cheap ($350 miant fee) 2BR on the East coast.  I use it as a throwaway or give it to friends and family as gifts.  For example, I stay in a Marriott and the in-laws stay in an RCI exchange.  The resorts are mediocre with very few that are equivalent to Marriott.


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