# Wyndham limiting access by non-owners during most sought-after dates/locations



## Sandi Bo

*Aw TUG, what's happening to us?  I had to read this on Facebook first?*

This will be interesting. I imagine you could still book and turn reservations over to ExtraHolidays. That seems kind of a conflict of interest to me.  It's not detailed out any where, just me speculating.

I wish they would say when they will cancel the reservation. Immediately upon adding the guest name or up until checkin?  That's pretty important to know.

Probably worst hit is to owners who need guest confirmations for family and friends traveling with them. IMO. I'd be pretty upset if that affected my family reunion plans (it does not).


*In case you didn't get the letter...*







Spring Is Almost Here





Dear XXXXX Family,As we near the spring vacation season, I couldn’t be more excited to hear more owners are making travel plans. Like many of you, my family sees an opportunity to go on vacation soon and I can’t wait!

Many owners put their vacations on hold last year. As more people look to get away, catch up on celebrating important milestones, and check off bucket list destinations, we are noticing an increase in owners planning their vacations. As you start to plan your next vacation, we’re working to ensure owners have access to as much availability as possible.

One way we are prioritizing owner reservations is by temporarily limiting access by non-owners at a few of your favorite Club Wyndham locations for the most sought-after dates. We’ll continue to monitor reservation bookings and resort availability so we can help owners get on vacation.

You’ve also shared with us that staying flexible is top of mind and of great importance to you, so we have extended our flexible cancellation policy to areas that have been impacted by state and local restrictions to ensure you can book with peace of mind.

Wherever your vacation plans take you, your resorts are Vacation Ready for your next stay. Enhanced health and safety measures and Ecolab’s cutting edge virus-fighting products mean you can travel with confidence.

Let us help you get back on vacation. We’re ready to welcome you home!

Regards,



Geoff Richards
Chief Operating Officer
Wyndham Destinations



*FROM THE WEBSITE:*

*Owners Get Priority Reservations For Peak Holidays*
Ready. Set. Go. You’ve shared that you’re looking forward to traveling again — and your Club Wyndham resorts are Vacation Ready to welcome you back for safe and clean bucket list adventures. As you start to plan your next vacation, we’re working to ensure owners have access to as much availability as possible.
As your resorts prepare for their busiest season ahead, several popular Club Wyndham resorts are taking steps to prioritize your owner reservations by temporarily limiting access by non-owners, including guest reservations, during peak holiday travel dates this year. What does this mean for you? You’ll have maximum availability and opportunity to vacation during major holidays.
All existing guest reservations on the books will be honored. *Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation *(including guests added to an existing reservation after March 15). If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.
This doesn’t mean you can’t share vacations with family and friends at all this year. Outside of the select resorts and travel periods, guest reservations can still be made at the other 200+ resorts available to you.
Here are the resorts and peak travel time periods that will limit access by guests:
*Memorial Day (May 28 – June 2)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Governor’s Green
Club Wyndham Skyline Towers
Club Wyndham National Harbor
*Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Skyline Tower
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Desert Blue
Club Wyndham Austin
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
*Labor Day (Sept. 3-8)*

Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon
Club Wyndham National Harbor
Club Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Club Wyndham Panama City Beach
Club Wyndham Emerald Grande at Destin
Club Wyndham at Majestic Sun
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
*Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Year’s Eve (Nov. 19-27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022)*

Club Wyndham Santa Barbara
Club Wyndham Sea Gardens
Club Wyndham Royal Vista
Club Wyndham Palm-Aire
Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Cypress Palms
Club Wyndham Star Island
Club Wyndham Reunion
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Harbour Lights
Club Wyndham Great Smokies Lodge
Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon
Margaritaville Vacation Club by Wyndham - St. Thomas
Club Wyndham Elysian Beach Resort
Club Wyndham Resort at Avon *(Only limited from Dec. 17 – Jan. 2)*
Club Wyndham Park City *(Only limited from Dec. 17 – Jan. 2)*


----------



## dioxide45

I wonder if they will limit their renting of inventory they control to non owners?


----------



## Jan M.

I received the email at 8:18pm ET tonight. I don't have any reservations that this affects but I'm sure other people do. With a deadline of midnight to have a guest added to any reservation that would be affected it sure didn't give anyone much time. If a person were at work, busy doing something or out for the evening they would have missed the very short window of opportunity to add a guest. Something like this should have had 24-72 hours notice. Very poorly done, Wyndham, it's just low.


----------



## jules54

OMG how else can Wyndham screw us over? Between Wyndham and guests confirming and then not paying I guess it’s a contest. Lol


----------



## bnoble

Sandi Bo said:


> Probably worst to hit owners who need guest confirmations for family and friends traveling with them.


I’m imagining it might also effect people hoping to rent those periods out after obtaining a VIP discount. It’s probably no accident that 3/15 is just outside the 60 day mark for Memorial Day.


----------



## jwalk03

How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?


----------



## chapjim

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they will limit their renting of inventory they control to non owners?



Hahaha!


----------



## dgalati

jules54 said:


> OMG how else can Wyndham screw us over? Between Wyndham and guests confirming and then not paying I guess it’s a contest. Lol


All part of Wyndhams plan to squeeze out the owners renting for owners looking to book for personal use.


----------



## dgalati

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they will limit their renting of inventory they control to non owners?


Not very likely their policy has always been do what I say not what I do! We all know policy or rules are a moving target and can be changed when they feel its necessary. These changes may not always help the VIP owner renting while using the VIP discounts or free upgrades. It will help the average owner looking to book 1-2 vacations a year as this change may free up inventory that otherwise would be rented.


----------



## bryjake

Sharing my opinion / perspective, this might be an unpopular...

Is Club Wyndham a resource for owners to go on vacation?
Or
Is Club Wyndham more of a tool to supplement owners by renting to others?

The answer is more than likely a blend of the two (Favoring vacation over renters)

This decision could help more typical owners book for high seasons and that is not a bad or Boo Wyndham thing

Covid left a lot of club points out there
In my opinion, this temporarily levels some of the playing field

I do hope this is TEMPORY
These are unpredictable times
I choose to give Club Wyndham the benefit of the doubt for this decision
Perhaps their motivation is as it reads, to help owners go on vacation


----------



## bnoble

bryjake said:


> Is Club Wyndham a resource for owners to go on vacation?
> Or
> Is Club Wyndham more of a tool to supplement owners by renting to others?


The answer is, of course, "yes."


----------



## Roger830

The dates affected are all inside of the 10 month booking window. I would think that owners booking for relatives would have secured their reservations with guest certificates by now for those prime locations. 

The policy does give owners an opportunity to book reservations in the future from cancellations for their use without competing with those desiring to rent for profit.


----------



## dgalati

bryjake said:


> Sharing my opinion / perspective, this might be an unpopular...
> 
> Is Club Wyndham a resource for owners to go on vacation?
> Or
> Is Club Wyndham more of a tool to supplement owners by renting to others?
> 
> The answer is more than likely a blend of the two (Favoring vacation over renters)
> 
> This decision could help more typical owners book for high seasons and that is not a bad or Boo Wyndham thing
> 
> Covid left a lot of club points out there
> In my opinion, this temporarily levels some of the playing field
> 
> I do hope this is TEMPORY
> These are unpredictable times
> I choose to give Club Wyndham the benefit of the doubt for this decision
> Perhaps their motivation is as it reads, to help owners go on vacation


Yes it is to free up inventory and to limit rentals. In the process it may shake out a few more players of the rental game. The end result is freeing up inventory for owners personal use while eliminating their competition to Extra Holidays. I would say its like hitting two birds with one stone.


----------



## Sandi Bo

jwalk03 said:


> How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?


It is an interesting list, for sure. Wonder how it was derived?


----------



## Sandi Bo

Roger830 said:


> The dates affected are all inside of the 10 month booking window. I would think that owners booking for relatives would have secured their reservations with guest certificates by now for those prime locations.
> 
> The policy does give owners an opportunity to book reservations in the future from cancellations for their use without competing with those desiring to rent for profit.


If they were booking for relatives, they needed more time than 4 hours to put their guest certificates on. I wait til the last minute. Especially with family. Sometimes day of. Never know who is arriving first, which spouse, etc. Family is the worst to try and plan for.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Yes it is to free up inventory and to limit rentals. In the process it may shake out a few more players of the rental game. The end result is freeing up inventory for owners personal use while eliminating their competition to Extra Holidays. I would say its like hitting two birds with one stone.


I see it as a win for Extra Holidays. My assumption is I can still turn rooms over to Extra Holidays.  How did that free up rooms for other owners?


----------



## bryjake

Sandi Bo said:


> It is an interesting list, for sure. Wonder how it was derived?



To be really sinister and conspiracy theory based:
THEY ALL HAVE SALES CENTERS?

That could cut either way, renters going to sales pitches has always been there just as extra holidays going to sales pitch
Their risk is an empty room with no one going to sales pitch


----------



## paxsarah

Sandi Bo said:


> Probably worst hit is to owners who need guest confirmations for family and friends traveling with them. IMO. I'd be pretty upset if that affected my family reunion plans (it does not).


My first thought as well, and I'm glad that our summer vacation with family is booked for a 4BR instead of multiple smaller units that might need GCs. For people still looking to book a summer vacation with family (not inconceivable that it would be this late given the uncertainty), they certainly would be more likely to have to piece together multiple smaller units rather than booking a single larger unit, and thus more likely face an issue with GCs. This seems like it's likely to anger as many owners as it benefits.

Edit: and I agree, it is a weird list.


----------



## PhilD41

I am in the mixed feeling camp. I can understand why they did it... assuming their motives are pure. I can also see this causing a problem for families, which is the main reason most purchase Wyndham. I have a nephew that is headed to Myrtle beach for a honeymoon and a wife and daughter headed to Galena for a girls weekend soon. Fortunately neither will be effected, but if they would have been we would likely be out both trips. We also usually book, then wait till the 60 day window and look for discounts. If we find something we rebook then cancel. With this, that would not be an option as you risk the new booking being canceled when you add the guest information... to be fair, availability at these resorts in the 60 day window is pretty slim.

I am also trying to learn to rent some to offset MF. So far I am far enough behind the game there that this doesn't really matter much. Assuming it is temporary though, now I know what resorts to target for what holidays going forward.   Regardless, I hope this change doesn't mess up too many owner's plans with their family. I have learned, if anything, that Wyndham owners tend to be loud. I expect they will let Wyndham know exactly what they think if it does.


----------



## bryjake

Sandi Bo said:


> I see it as a win for Extra Holidays. My assumption is I can still turn rooms over to Extra Holidays.  How did that free up rooms for other owners?



Right now it is a buyers market
Room rates have been significantly slashed across the board for everyone
Too much supply and not enough demand

I currently do NOT rent but would reasonably suspect that rentals are also going for lower fares as well
Once you consider that renting through ExtraHolidays once you subtract Wyndhams cut does not seem that profitable in this environment 

Extra Holidays currently has up to 30% off for a long list of locations through June
https://www.extraholidays.com/promo...Identifier=DISCOVER21&utm_content=Banner-Hero

This is near term focused and currently does not impact July4th, Labor Day, Thankgiving, Christmas / New Years

Just suggests to me that there are rooms available

The only consistent element is everything is subject to change


----------



## Sandy VDH

Funny thing, I don't know if the Worldmark side is going to have the same restrictions, but I picked up two July 4th weeks at a Worldmark via RCI.  The same week where all 3 Texas Wyndham locations have the restriction.


----------



## rpeacock

My two cents/opinion worth.

This policy is all about benefitting Extra Holidays (EH) at the owners expense. We were told last year at Clearwater that many of the units were reserved through EH. One of the staff told us they were surprised that we were an "actual owner".

The question is: is EH the one reserving the units or is it the owners reserving the units and then turning the reservations over to EH?

Is it possible that by limiting the owners to reserve units for guest reservations Wyndham is giving EH a chance get more owners to turn their reservations over the EH so that EH balance sheet will improve? Hmmmmm.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandy VDH

peacockdesignsinc said:


> My two cents/opinion worth.
> 
> This policy is all about benefitting Extra Holidays (EH) at the owners expense. We were told last year at Clearwater that many of the units were reserved through EH. One of the staff told us they were surprised that we were an "actual owner".
> 
> The question is: is EH the one reserving the units or is it the owners reserving the units and then turning the reservations over to EH?



Is Clearwater sold out?  I don't know for sure, but I don't think so.  If it is NOT sold out, then any unsold inventory Wyndham is allowed to do what it wants with, because if it is NOT sold then it does not belong to the club yet.  So Wyndham could be populating unsold inventory into EH, and long before it is allowed to grab a % club inventory that is available at X days out.  Don't recall how many days out it is.  It does populate EH with remaining inventory. 

As an owner I would never put a unit in EH.  I have no control.  I could give them a week, they could rent 1 night only.  I also can't tell if they rented out mine or someone else's so I would NOT use EH as a renting mechanism.  Do any TUGgers use it?  I would be surprised.  I am sure a few have tried, but I can't imagine that it is something that someone is using consistently.  

So again with the EH conspiracy theories.


----------



## richardm

These restrictions have nothing to do with helping owners..  Club Owners who haven't been able to book holiday reservations in advance up until now, still won't be able to book these holiday reservations in advance tomorrow. Unfortunately, those people will still miss out, and they'll still be looking to blame someone other than themselves..  There is no special trick that owners who "rent" their points use or know-  we just do a better job of planning.  If you want a holiday reservation, scheduled your reminder to book at the first opportunity you are allowed- and then be online at midnight to book it.  

As for developer rentals, yes- Wyndham does have the ability to remove (and return) reservations from the Club Owners availability. Every timeshare developer has a breakage policy in place- which allows them to move inventory back and forth from their own rental pools. Most use ratios to determine how much they can designate as "unused". If these reservations go unrented, they'll often be dumped back into the Club Owner availability just prior to check in- which again changes the ratios in the developers favor and also keeps the developer from having to pay for the vacant inventory. It used to be common for the large marketing sites to publish a press release boasting of the developer agreements (example HERE) but I don't see them as often any longer. I've always been surprised that no enterprising law firm has ever gone after a class action designation based on anti-trust legislation. Seems like that would be an easy case to find plantiffs, and discover supporting evidence. 

The fact that timeshare developers try to stop individual owners from renting, while still having no hesitation to rent owner inventory themselves- is just a sad testament to the mindset of the developers. It's not just Wyndham.  There are a number of developers that actively advertise direct rentals at prices which are below the cost of an owner's maintenance fees.  I just saw a reservation yesterday at an Orlando resort that was available for almost $300 less as a direct rental using Holiday Inn hotel rewards rates- than the deeded weekly owner was billed in maintenance fees.


----------



## bryjake

Again to be more sinister and conspiracy theory related...
How does Travel and Leasure fit in?
They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches
The waters could get muddier


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> I see it as a win for Extra Holidays. My assumption is I can still turn rooms over to Extra Holidays.  How did that free up rooms for other owners?


It doesn't but remember they are a for profit corporation with a responsibility to their shareholders.


----------



## dgalati

peacockdesignsinc said:


> My two cents/opinion worth.
> 
> This policy is all about benefitting Extra Holidays (EH) at the owners expense. We were told last year at Clearwater that many of the units were reserved through EH. One of the staff told us they were surprised that we were an "actual owner".
> 
> The question is: is EH the one reserving the units or is it the owners reserving the units and then turning the reservations over to EH?
> 
> Is it possible that by limiting the owners to reserve units for guest reservations Wyndham is giving EH a chance get more owners to turn their reservations over the EH so that EH balance sheet will improve? Hmmmmm.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Bingo!


----------



## dgalati

bryjake said:


> The only consistent element is everything is subject to change


The changes have not been not very helpful to owners that are renting. You see the pattern?


----------



## Lisa P

bryjake said:


> To be really sinister and conspiracy theory based:
> THEY ALL HAVE SALES CENTERS?



Not sure how these lists were determined but I don't believe there are sales centers at ALL of the listed resorts (ex., some in Kissimmee and Pompano Beach, FL). Plus, I think there are sales centers at some resorts that are NOT on the lists. Not sure why Clearwater and Myrtle Beach locations are not included for summer holidays. Peculiar.


----------



## cbyrne1174

jwalk03 said:


> How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?



My guess would be because it's such a small resort.


----------



## Jan M.

I haven't checked the availability on Extra Holidays however someone in one of the Wyndham Facebook groups did but just for Bonnet Creek. They said that the times on the list were blocked out for availability at Bonnet Creek through Extra Holidays.

I was very surprised that Panama City Beach, Majestic Sun, Emerald Grande, Glacier Canyon and Great Smokies Lodge weren't included for Memorial Day and Independence Day. Whoever drew up the list really needs to be better at their job because those resorts absolutely should have been on that list for those dates too.

I too wondered how in the world Clearwater isn't on that list at all. I continually see owners saying they can't get stays there.


----------



## CO skier

bnoble said:


> I’m imagining it might also effect people hoping to rent those periods out after obtaining a VIP discount. It’s probably no accident that 3/15 is just outside the 60 day mark for Memorial Day.


That is the only explanation I can think of for why Desert Blue Las Vegas is on the list for July 4th week and Grand Desert Las Vegas is not.  With the high point costs at Desert Blue relative to Grand Desert, Desert Blue would have availability within 60 days, whereas Grand Desert might not.

Why are neither of these resorts on the list for the last two weeks of the year?


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> That is the only explanation I can think of for why Desert Blue Las Vegas is on the list for July 4th week and Grand Desert Las Vegas is not.  With the high point costs at Desert Blue relative to Grand Desert, Desert Blue would have availability within 60 days, whereas Grand Desert might not.
> 
> Why are neither of these resorts on the list for the last two weeks of the year?



I didn't add them to my list of resorts on the post above yours. I should have because 4th of July and New Year's Eve are in very high demand for both Grand Desert and Desert Blue.  Like you said Grand Desert has more appeal to owners who rent out stays because it's fewer points to book.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> Edit: and I agree, it is a weird list.


How much availability is freed up through guest reservations at these resorts -- a few thousand?  Whatever the number is, it is a drop in the bucket.  Wyndham probably could have freed up as many reservations simply by eliminating guest reservations at Bonnet Creek and Glacier Canyon from mid-June to mid-August.

It is a strange, short list.  I am not one for conspiracy theories, but could this be a trial balloon for a larger, permanent program at the most sought after locations and dates?


----------



## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> I haven't checked the availability on Extra Holidays however someone in one of the Wyndham Facebook groups did but just for Bonnet Creek. They said that the times on the list were blocked out for availability at Bonnet Creek through Extra Holidays.


I was going to suggest this kind of an idea.  For all those Extra Holidays conspiracy theorists, it should be an easy task to find the proverbial "smoking gun" anytime before the end of the year.


----------



## rpeacock

Sandy VDH said:


> Is Clearwater sold out? I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. If it is NOT sold out, then any unsold inventory Wyndham is allowed to do what it wants with, because if it is NOT sold then it does not belong to the club yet. So Wyndham could be populating unsold inventory into EH, and long before it is allowed to grab a % club inventory that is available at X days out. Don't recall how many days out it is. It does populate EH with remaining inventory.
> 
> As an owner I would never put a unit in EH. I have no control. I could give them a week, they could rent 1 night only. I also can't tell if they rented out mine or someone else's so I would NOT use EH as a renting mechanism. Do any TUGgers use it? I would be surprised. I am sure a few have tried, but I can't imagine that it is something that someone is using consistently.
> 
> So again with the EH conspiracy theories.


We tried EH one time. We gave them a week at Ocean Walk, I think for bike week, and they only sold 2 of the 7 days of our reservation. So by the time they got their cut we hardly got anything. There was, at least at that time, ZERO transparency on their part. So No, we don't use them. . . fool me once. . . .

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## rpeacock

@CO skier, as you theorized:
"I am not one for conspiracy theories, but could this be a trial balloon for a larger, permanent program at the most sought after locations and dates?

That is my fear, that this is a test balloon for Wyndham. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

peacockdesignsinc said:


> @CO skier, as you theorized:
> "I am not one for conspiracy theories, but could this be a trial balloon for a larger, permanent program at the most sought after locations and dates?
> 
> That is my fear, that this is a test balloon for Wyndham.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Yes it is a test ballon for future policy changes. The mega renters were snuffed out now they go after the next big fish. VIP owners that rent more then they use personally.  They also are onto the use of resale points with VIP discounts and upgrades. Its a slow calculated process but it is no different then the elimination of cancel and rebook. To many are abusing these benifits to rent and make a profit at all club owners expense. Wyndham sales sold this as a way to cover maintenance fees like cancel and rebook was.


----------



## dioxide45

dgalati said:


> To many are abusing these benefits to rent and make a profit at all club owners *Wyndham Destination's* expense


It could also be written like this?


----------



## chapjim

Jan M. said:


> I haven't checked the availability on Extra Holidays however someone in one of the Wyndham Facebook groups did but just for Bonnet Creek. They said that the times on the list were blocked out for availability at Bonnet Creek through Extra Holidays.
> 
> I was very surprised that Panama City Beach, Majestic Sun, Emerald Grande, Glacier Canyon and Great Smokies Lodge weren't included for Memorial Day and Independence Day. Whoever drew up the list really needs to be better at their job because those resorts absolutely should have been on that list for those dates too.
> 
> I too wondered how in the world Clearwater isn't on that list at all. I continually see owners saying they can't get stays there.



Sandi Bo made essentially the same point -- that the logic behind the list is elusive.

Why not Old Town Alexandria and National Harbor for 4th of July?  Both are within shouting distance of the District and a pretty good fireworks show (never mind that the Capitol looks like a war zone).

Skyline Towers for Memorial Day?  What's up with that?

Two San Antonio resorts for Independence Day and Labor Day?  No Bonnet Creek on Labor Day?  What goes on at Park City on Labor Day?  

Midtown 45 for Independence Day and the winter holidays but nothing else.  No New Orleans resorts for 4th of July (did they call off Essence Festival?)

Either Wyndham has some metrics used to arrive at the list or this is Wyndham flexing its muscles, showing what it can do.  Think pro wrestlers entering the ring.

As a bottom feeding, sometime renter, none of these dates/resorts are within the 60-day discount window. And, over the years, I don't think I've done a lot with any of these time periods.  We went to National Harbor for Memorial Day 2019 and to Old Town Alexandria for the 4th in 2019.  Both are just down the road.  I did rent a week at Ocean Walk for the 4th in 2019.  I'm usually out of points way before Thanksgiving or Christmas/New Year plus I have some non-Wyndham fixed weeks for those periods.

All in all, I don't see this as anything that will bother me.  It's something to pay attention to when booking reservations but not to be upset by.  At least not this year.


----------



## montygz

1. Wyndham knows exactly how many guest certificates are issued for each resort and when. It could be targeting the resorts with the biggest percentage of renters. Or it could be targeting the resorts that have received the most complaints from its owners about booking availability.

2. Wyndham may be doing this as a PR campaign to extract some goodwill from its typical, non-renting owners and pulled some resorts out of a hat. 

3. Some combination of the two. 

With the pandemic easing, Wyndham may be sensing a massive surge in travel demand and it is just trying to do something to appease some of its customers. If there is a big surge in demand for travel this is a way to show they are doing something about it, although when you make one customer happy you disappoint another.


----------



## Sandi Bo

A lot of things that don't add up. What data points did they use???

They did do this before, cancelled guest reservations. Got tons of complaints. So interesting they'd take another stab at it. 

I think it appeases the owners that don't travel often and aren't that savvy at booking reservations.  It doesn't have to be too successful, or provide any additional availability. Not having availability they can blame on the post-covid surge - and they can point to this new policy as them trying to do their part to help get owners on vacation. 

In March, I had a son in a presidential at La Belle Maison for Mardi Gras, brother in a 3 Bedroom a few nights at Ocean Walk for the Daytona 500, multiple ski weekends for the family in Massachusetts at Bentley Brook, oops almost forgot the nephews skiing in Avon President's week. All extremely sought after dates. All booked last minute. Sometimes you have to work for it.  Owners want to look one time, don't see it, and whine there's no availability. Either plan ahead or plan to work a little for it. 

So a nice PR stunt on Wyndham's part. I just want to know what the rules are. Playing with my 3 year old grand-daughter today, she was making up a new game / new rules with the pieces to don't drop Mama. And I thought of Wyndham. Changing the rules as they go along so they can win. I don't mind so much when it's a 3 year old.

I just want to know the rules. With more than 4 hours notice please.  As Jim Chapman said, something to pay attention to when booking reservations.


----------



## Richelle

Has anyone looked to see if you can book those specific dates on extra holidays or a hotel booking website like hotels dot com? I only checked for Bonnet creek so far, but those specific dates are blocked off. You cannot book them. I went to hotels do com and looked for “Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek” (not to be confused with the hotel side, Wyndham Grand Bonnet creek) and didn’t see any availability there either. It appears to be affecting all rentals, including Wyndham’s. Existing reservations with guest certificates are safe. Both for owner reservations and Wyndham’s reservations. I have not had a chance to check more. I’ve been to busy between work and dealing with idiot megarenters on Facebook who are trying to scare people and get them worked up. This no doubt will ruin someone’s family vacation, and that does suck. However, most of the people complaining on Facebook are people who made a business profiting from timeshares. I assume these dates were their bread and butter. I saw only a couple “well this ruined our family trip for X resort during X dates.” Maybe we will see more as time goes on, but for now, it seems the renters are hurting more then the owners. I don’t see Wyndham back tracking on this one like they did last year, but I could be wrong. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## troy12n

chapjim said:


> (never mind that the Capitol looks like a war zone).



You really think that's necessary? Or accurate? I was there recently, and if you think that looks like a war zone, you've never been to one...

Whatever  [occurred] on January 6 is long since cleaned up, and was ever only limited to the mall and immediate Capitol zone, I was there recently and heading back on 4/2...



> Midtown 45 for Independence Day and the winter holidays but nothing else.



I Imagine New York is still hurting because of COVID...



> No New Orleans resorts for 4th of July (did they call off Essence Festival?)



La Belle Maison is completely closed for renovations until at least January 2022... and the other NOLA facility I think is just Suites and Hotel rooms, not quite the place renters want to send people



> Either Wyndham has some metrics used to arrive at the list or this is Wyndham flexing its muscles, showing what it can do.  Think pro wrestlers entering the ring.



Think probably enough people have complained at "updates" that it's affecting sales, Wyndham certainly has the data and if they think renters are affecting owners ability to book, I wouldn't be surprised if they did this.

I do agree that there should be more transparency...



> All in all, I don't see this as anything that will bother me.  It's something to pay attention to when booking reservations but not to be upset by.  At least not this year.



Doesn't seem like it will affect me either, i'm an October to September use year person and am preparing to use the rest of my points... so far i've seen plenty of availability, and since I don't rent anyway and rarely use guest certificates, I see this largely as a potential win at best for me, at worst a wash

[Political remark redacted]


----------



## CO skier

Richelle said:


> However, most of the people complaining on Facebook *(and TUG)* are people who made a business profiting from timeshares.


Emphasis inserted and added to make the point.


----------



## CO skier

Richelle said:


> Maybe we will see more as time goes on, but for now, it seems the renters are hurting more then the owners. I don’t see Wyndham back tracking on this one like they did last year, but I could be wrong.


IF this is a trial balloon for a larger program, and IF it works to put more owners on vacation with their families (how could it not?), it could be expanded to take back control of Club Wyndham to put more owners, who invested into Club Wyndham through an ownership, on an excellent vacation, at the expense of profiteers.


----------



## WyndhamBarter

troy12n said:


> La Belle Maison is completely closed for renovations until at least January 2022...



Can anyone confirm this?  I've been holding reservations for October and November
since 2 months ago.  They're still there, and no email from Wyndham.


----------



## josegm888

CO skier said:


> IF this is a trial balloon for a larger program, and IF it works to put more owners on vacation with their families (how could it not?), it could be expanded to take back control of Club Wyndham to put more owners, who invested into Club Wyndham through an ownership, on an excellent vacation, at the expense of profiteers.



At expense of profiteers? Haha you mean at expense of Wyndham. Wyndham owners that rent points probably bring more business to the program than Wyndham owners who don’t. Not sure how it’s one owner’s problem that the other owner can’t plan accordingly or that they got into something that they don’t know how to use properly, or they don’t want to spend time researching about it, which you can tell by the amount of very simple questions seen posted here that can be answered by reading and researching more.  Again, every owner has the same opportunity to plan and book their stay, the only difference is some people are smarter about it.  What’s probably going to happen is savvy timeshare owners are going to look to other timeshare programs that don’t pull this socialist rules in limiting how owners can use their interest in a piece of REAL ESTATE they purchased. They’re are rights that come with owning real estate which by law should be honored.  I believe they should be sued.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roger830

WyndhamBarter said:


> Can anyone confirm this?  I've been holding reservations for October and November
> since 2 months ago.  They're still there, and no email from Wyndham.



This was discussed on facebook last week. It's my understanding  that they will be open but not accepting new reservations because of renovations.


----------



## AtlasRse

jwalk03 said:


> How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?


----------



## Rolltydr

WyndhamBarter said:


> Can anyone confirm this?  I've been holding reservations for October and November
> since 2 months ago.  They're still there, and no email from Wyndham.


I have a reservation for a week in May and I haven’t seen anything about LaBelle being closed. I will be calling today to check.


----------



## Rolltydr

Roger830 said:


> This was discussed on facebook last week. It's my understanding  that they will be open but not accepting new reservations because of renovations.


The Wyndham website shows renovations starting May 4th and most amenities will be closed but says nothing about the timeshare being closed or not accepting reservations.


----------



## AtlasRse

I've done some due diligence to look at ALL the Resorts listed during the Independence Day block out period to see what EXTRA HOLIDAYS has in terms of availability during those dates....

ANSWER: ....  NO AVAILABILITY at all.

*Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Skyline Tower
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Desert Blue
Club Wyndham Austin
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
Is Wyndham blocking out Owners who conduct some renting to satisfy their own thirst for revenue by forcing non-owners to utilize Extra Holidays? .... Doesn't look that way

So what does this mean for Owners? .... Well it could mean that this gives Owners a better shot at getting an opportunity they might not otherwise have in getting a reservation during a peak holiday .... MOST Owners pushed a boatload of their Points into 2021 from last year and we all know they can't push those Points any further out ....

So perhaps, just perhaps, despite the conspiracy theorists, Wyndham has done this in support of their Owners after a dreadful 2020 year of very limited travel and use of our Points.

As for many of the Resale Owners and Renters, this may just be a bump in the road for you ... Time will tell if that bump turns into a true road block


----------



## troy12n

Rolltydr said:


> The Wyndham website shows renovations starting May 4th and most amenities will be closed but says nothing about the timeshare being closed or not accepting reservations.



If you try to book on the website, it shows zero availability from April through January 2022 though... it might not explicitly say that they are not taking new reservations, but they are indeed not. It's apparent they may be honoring what are already on the books. I actually tried to book there on Monday and found this out myself. I wanted to book 4th of July week actually.

I think I might be hesitant to stay there even if I had a booking during this time to be honest with you. It's going to be noisy and dirty and no amenities. But who knows, maybe lower occupancy may have benefits.


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> At expense of profiteers? Haha you mean at expense of Wyndham. Wyndham owners that rent points probably bring more business to the program than Wyndham owners who don’t. Not sure how it’s one owner’s problem that the other owner can’t plan accordingly or that they got into something that they don’t know how to use properly, or they don’t want to spend time researching about it, which you can tell by the amount of very simple questions seen posted here that can be answered by reading and researching more. Again, every owner has the same opportunity to plan and book their stay, the only difference is some people are smarter about it. What’s probably going to happen is savvy timeshare owners are going to look to other timeshare programs that don’t pull this socialist rules in limiting how owners can use their interest in a piece of REAL ESTATE they purchased. They’re are rights that come with owning real estate which by law should be honored. I believe they should be sued.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You don’t know that renter would be more likely to buy then owners. It is very hard to sell something to someone that they don’t understand. It’s a lot easier to sell something to someone they already have experience with and are enjoying. So it’s entirely possible that existing owners, including VIPs, are an easier sell then renters. Especially since renters got their accommodations so cheap. VIPs has already proven they were willing to spend big money on the product. There is a higher likelihood that they will spend more. More likely then someone who choose to rent from someone else, rather then buy. If they are renting, that means they already decided they were not going to buy, or else they would buy resale. For one reason or another, they decided it wasn’t worth it to the to own, so renting is their preference. So how are they more likely to buy?

It’s not the profiteers fault that owners don’t understand the product and take the time to learn. It’s not the profiteers fault that the owner didn’t plan far enough out. I agree with you on both those points. However, it is partly the profiteers fault that some owners who do plan far out and understand the program, cannot get what they want. For every megarenter, there are at least 5-10 regular owners who want the same exact room at the same exact time. It’s true that those other 4-9 owners will still miss out, but at least it’s a paying owner that got the room. Not someone that just wants cheap accommodations and has no skin in the game. I’m not sorry a megarenter lost a reservation that probably nets them a lot of money. I’m not sorry a BUSINESS, whose bread and butter is prime reservations, is being hit hard by this. I do feel sorry for the family vacations that got ruined by this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roger830

troy12n said:


> If you try to book on the website, it shows zero availability from April through January 2022 though... it might not explicitly say that they are not taking new reservations, but they are indeed not. It's apparent they may be honoring what are already on the books. I actually tried to book there on Monday and found this out myself. I wanted to book 4th of July week actually.
> 
> I think I might be hesitant to stay there even if I had a booking during this time to be honest with you. It's going to be noisy and dirty and no amenities. But who knows, maybe lower occupancy may have benefits.



I booked Avenue Plaza last week for October after seeing La Belle Maison blocked out. It removed the decision of where to stay.

We stayed at Sea Gardens Ocean Plams 3 years ago on the 6th floor when they were renovating the 8,9,10th floors. We heard tapping well into the evening like tile being removed. We were there week 7 and were told that it was very noisy in January.


----------



## Lisa P

montygz said:


> 1. Wyndham knows exactly how many guest certificates are issued for each resort and when. It could be targeting the resorts with the biggest percentage of renters. Or it could be targeting the resorts that have received the most complaints from its owners about booking availability.
> 
> 2. Wyndham may be doing this as a PR campaign to extract some goodwill from its typical, non-renting owners...


Agree with this. ^^^



josegm888 said:


> Wyndham owners that rent points probably bring more business to the program than Wyndham owners who don’t.


I believe the great majority of developer-sold points these days are actually sold to existing lower-points owners and not to the general public or non-owners (renters). IOW, salesweasels have much more success selling more points to owners than selling to potential first-time owners.


----------



## Lisa P

AtlasRse said:


> I've done some due diligence to look at ALL the Resorts listed during the Independence Day block out period to see what EXTRA HOLIDAYS has in terms of availability during those dates....
> 
> ANSWER: ....  NO AVAILABILITY at all.


Thank you, AtlasRse, for doing this and sharing the info. Interesting. Since Wyndham likes to sell via Owner Updates *and* they want to reduce rental competition for their Extra Holidays from the megarenters *and* the vast majority of owners are smaller points owners who want to use their points for their own family vacations *and* there's a bit of PR potential... I think this policy is, from a broad overview perspective, a win on several fronts. Frankly, I don't care whether Wyndham (corporate) benefits or now, but since there may be more people/owners who win than who lose, I see it as a positive. To me, this temporary policy is similar to Wyndham's policy of avoiding depositing prime holiday weeks at popular resorts to RCI... which _prioritizes prime availability for more owners_ over exchangers.



AtlasRse said:


> So what does this mean for Owners? .... Well it could mean that this gives Owners a better shot at getting an opportunity they might not otherwise have in getting a reservation during a peak holiday


Personally, we do like to have mini-reunions for our family, booking multiple concurrent units, once every 1-2 years. So we'll avoid these dates at these resorts for those trips. There are so many other resort options and dates that it won't be an issue for us... as long as we know with plenty of advance notice. Wyndham really didn't give everyone enough lead time for this summer's group vacation planners, IMO.


----------



## Rolltydr

troy12n said:


> If you try to book on the website, it shows zero availability from April through January 2022 though... it might not explicitly say that they are not taking new reservations, but they are indeed not. It's apparent they may be honoring what are already on the books. I actually tried to book there on Monday and found this out myself. I wanted to book 4th of July week actually.
> 
> I think I might be hesitant to stay there even if I had a booking during this time to be honest with you. It's going to be noisy and dirty and no amenities. But who knows, maybe lower occupancy may have benefits.


I don’t find it unusual that La Belle doesn’t have any availability less than 4 months out from a major holiday, especially even if they didn’t have reduced units due to renovation. They can’t book rooms they don’t have. I also don’t find it unusual that they’re booked for the remainder of the year. A couple of those reservations are mine. As others have noted, people are using points they had to move from last year and NOLA is one of the favored destinations.


----------



## Richelle

Lisa P said:


> There are so many other resort options and dates that it won't be an issue for us... as long as we know with plenty of advance notice. Wyndham really didn't give everyone enough lead time for this summer's group vacation planners, IMO.



I agree they could have given more notice. Maybe it was to keep people from adding guest certificates to existing rental reservations last minute. I wonder how many megarenters, already have people who rented those reservations but didn’t add them yet because they do refunds? It would make sense to wait until after the refund period has past, to apply the GC otherwise you could end up losing that GC. If I was a mega renter that did that, and I was given notice, I would add the guest certificates ASAP. Better to lose $100 then $1,000 because you had to cancel their reservation and refund the money. So now that they had no notice, they have to cancel, which frees up rooms. If they had advance notice, they wouldn’t have to cancel and the owner still wouldn’t get that room. Hopefully that makes sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandi Bo

Has anyone heard when the reservations will be cancelled? Immediately upon addition of the guest certificate, or are we at risk of having it cancelled until checkin day?

I just want to know the rules. Today's game with 3 year old grand-daughter was Slap Jack, became Slap Jack King, became Slap Jack Queen King.  But she didn't tell me til after she slapped the Queen. Hard to keep up some days.


----------



## louisianab

Rolltydr said:


> The Wyndham website shows renovations starting May 4th and most amenities will be closed but says nothing about the timeshare being closed or not accepting reservations.


I would recommend everyone with reservations call, we stayed there a few years ago and when we arrived, the desk was like "Are you at Avenue Plaza after XX day? " And we had no idea but they were closing for renovation and had not done anything with our reservation. They did move us, but it was disappointing.


----------



## troy12n

Rolltydr said:


> I don’t find it unusual that La Belle doesn’t have any availability less than 4 months out from a major holiday, especially even if they didn’t have reduced units due to renovation. They can’t book rooms they don’t have. I also don’t find it unusual that they’re booked for the remainder of the year. A couple of those reservations are mine. As others have noted, people are using points they had to move from last year and NOLA is one of the favored destinations.




I can think of no resorts where I have looked and found zero, completely zero, availability for months on end. With the exception of those "associate resorts" like the one in Charleston, and a couple non-wyndham resorts we can book. I've been to La Belle and never seen the ability to not book at all, for 10 straight months. I've seen resorts where there may be maybe 1-2 non-contiguous days of availability in a month, but never zero, zip, nada for 10 straight months. That tells me it's closed to (new) bookings. I also really don't see the need to argue about this.


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> Has anyone heard when the reservations will be cancelled? Immediately upon addition of the guest certificate, or are we at risk of having it cancelled until checkin day?
> 
> I just want to know the rules. Today's game with 3 year old grand-daughter was Slap Jack, became Slap Jack King, became Slap Jack Queen King. But she didn't tell me til after she slapped the Queen. Hard to keep up some days.



They said if you already have a guest certificate on a reservation prior to today, it will be honored. If you try adding a guest certificate now, it will get canceled. Obviously only for specific resorts for specific dates. 

Sorry, I keep having to parrot that last line On Facebook because people are not reading the announcement, or didn’t comprehend it, and didn’t realize it didn’t apply to them. They are getting mad and telling anyone who listens that their vacation is ruined. So they tell 10 people who freak out and they tell 10 more people. I wish they would read the stupid announcement on the website. 


Oh and tell your grand daughter “cheater cheater, pumpkin eater”.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandi Bo

Richelle said:


> They said if you already have a guest certificate on a reservation prior to today, it will be honored. If you try adding a guest certificate now, it will get canceled. Obviously only for specific resorts for specific dates.
> 
> Sorry, I keep having to parrot that last line On Facebook because people are not reading the announcement, or didn’t comprehend it, and didn’t realize it didn’t apply to them. They are getting mad and telling anyone who listens that their vacation is ruined. So they tell 10 people who freak out and they tell 10 more people. I wish they would read the stupid announcement on the website.
> 
> 
> Oh and tell your grand daughter “cheater cheater, pumpkin eater”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So...where I'm getting stuck is the word *SUBJECT* ('All existing guest reservations on the books will be honored. *Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation). *
Does that mean 100% certain they will cancel, will it happen as soon as I add a guest or are some possibly going to be honored? I just want to be crystal clear how this will be implemented. 

And, I don't want to make anyone cry.


----------



## Rolltydr

troy12n said:


> I also really don't see the need to argue about this.


Well, it’s because we apparently have different opinions and we both have the right to express them. But, nice try.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> Has anyone heard when the reservations will be cancelled? Immediately upon addition of the guest certificate, or are we at risk of having it cancelled until checkin day?
> 
> I just want to know the rules. Today's game with 3 year old grand-daughter was Slap Jack, became Slap Jack King, became Slap Jack Queen King.  But she didn't tell me til after she slapped the Queen. Hard to keep up some days.



Keep 'em guessing, Sandi, keep 'em guessing.


----------



## montygz

Sandi Bo said:


> So...where I'm getting stuck is the word *SUBJECT* ('All existing guest reservations on the books will be honored. *Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation). *
> Does that mean 100% certain they will cancel, will it happen as soon as I add a guest or are some possibly going to be honored? I just want to be crystal clear how this will be implemented.
> 
> And, I don't want to make anyone cry.


I take it to mean that if a certain condition applies, in this case a reservation made after March 15, it will be canceled. 

How will this work in practice? You would guess the computer system would just remove that option and put up some kind of warning note. 

It also may only be a bit subjectively enforced. If some million-point owner calls up and gives a sob story about needing a guest reservation for his mother who is checking into WBC tomorrow, will they not add it? Failing to do so would be bad PR.

On the other hand, if power renter calls up and needs 25 guest reservations for their WBC Fourth of July ebay listings, it probably won't fly.


----------



## comicbookman

WyndhamBarter said:


> Can anyone confirm this?  I've been holding reservations for October and November
> since 2 months ago.  They're still there, and no email from Wyndham.



I also have reservations in ocrober.  I called the resort.  No new reservations, but all booked reservations will be honored is what I was told.


----------



## dgalati

montygz said:


> I take it to mean that if a certain condition applies, in this case a reservation made after March 15, it will be canceled.
> 
> How will this work in practice? You would guess the computer system would just remove that option and put up some kind of warning note.
> 
> It also may only be a bit subjectively enforced. If some million-point owner calls up and gives a sob story about needing a guest reservation for his mother who is checking into WBC tomorrow, will they not add it? Failing to do so would be bad PR.
> 
> On the other hand, if power renter calls up and needs 25 guest reservations for their WBC Fourth of July ebay listings, it probably won't fly.


 Power renter  LOL!


----------



## Sandi Bo

comicbookman said:


> I also have reservations in ocrober.  I called the resort.  No new reservations, but all booked reservations will be honored is what I was told.


Thanks.  And October doesn't matter, right?  I think that's what people are needlessly getting upset about. Only during the blackout dates.


----------



## comicbookman

Sandi Bo said:


> Thanks.  And October doesn't matter, right?  I think that's what people are needlessly getting upset about. Only during the blackout dates.



Yup.  I was just checking on the renovations, which are being confused with the restrictions.


----------



## Sandi Bo

If you book at


comicbookman said:


> Yup.  I was just checking on the renovations, which are being confused with the restrictions.


 Renovations / reservations, tomatoes / tomatoes.     Sorry, I was in the wrong sub-thread to this thread.


----------



## Sandi Bo

I do remember hearing, maybe 5 years or so back, that repeat owners were their best customers.  That is certainly the case for our account (they LOVED my Dad, no clue how many purchases, trade ups to lower maintenance fees, etc (yup deeded to CWA and back to deeds (deeds now at Ocean Walk, BC, and Alexandria to lower MFs  ).  I digress..

If that is still true, and likely it is, what a great opportunity. If in fact they do get more owners on vacation during peak holiday times.  Not only are they getting more owners, they are getting the less savvy ones, the ones who aren't so great at being online at opportune times, etc.  Maybe they better staff up during these black out periods?


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> So...where I'm getting stuck is the word *SUBJECT* ('All existing guest reservations on the books will be honored. *Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation). *
> Does that mean 100% certain they will cancel, will it happen as soon as I add a guest or are some possibly going to be honored? I just want to be crystal clear how this will be implemented.
> 
> And, I don't want to make anyone cry.



There was a line in parentheses at the end of what you were quoting. 

Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after March 15)

Hopefully it answers your question. It goes on to say:

If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.


I did not get the email, so maybe the wording is different on it. I’m getting this from the announcement on the webpage. 









						Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
					

Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

montygz said:


> I take it to mean that if a certain condition applies, in this case a reservation made after March 15, it will be canceled.
> 
> How will this work in practice? You would guess the computer system would just remove that option and put up some kind of warning note.
> 
> It also may only be a bit subjectively enforced. If some million-point owner calls up and gives a sob story about needing a guest reservation for his mother who is checking into WBC tomorrow, will they not add it? Failing to do so would be bad PR.
> 
> On the other hand, if power renter calls up and needs 25 guest reservations for their WBC Fourth of July ebay listings, it probably won't fly.



From the announcement on the webpage:


If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.

It does not warn you when you try to add one. They definitely should. 









						Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
					

Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tschwa2

It means that can cancel the reservation with the guest cert added after March 15 (whether new reservation or old reservation) anytime up until check in or not.  I don't know whether it is a manual process where someone is sent the list and then decide each day whether to cancel or not or if it is a computer automatic process that cancels everything with 24 hrs or a guest cert be added.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> It means that can cancel the reservation with the guest cert added after March 15 (whether new reservation or old reservation) anytime up until check in or not.  I don't know whether it is a manual process where someone is sent the list and then decide each day whether to cancel or not or if it is a computer automatic process that cancels everything with 24 hrs or a guest cert be added.


More then likely computer generated. We all know Wyndham's IT upgrades and how they work out.


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> From the announcement on the webpage:
> 
> 
> If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.
> 
> It does not warn you when you try to add one. They definitely should.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Returning the GC is a gift IMHO. Hopefully Wyndham adds a warning to prevent owners from adding the GC.


----------



## tschwa2

dgalati said:


> Will both the Gift certificate and points be returned to account?  Or will owners be penalized a GC for trying to beat the system?


The email said both guest cert and points will be returned.  It looks like the only penalty will be the cancellation.  Since it isn't noted when you make the reservation and the system allows you to make the reservation and add the guest cert then one doesn't have to assume they are trying to beat the system, they may not be aware of the rule- not everyone reads their emails or forgot about it.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> The email said both guest cert and points will be returned.  It looks like the only penalty will be the cancellation.  Since it isn't noted when you make the reservation and the system allows you to make the reservation and add the guest cert then one doesn't have to assume they are trying to beat the system, they may not be aware of the rule- not everyone reads their emails or forgot about it.


Edited found info on Richelle's post.


----------



## VacayKat

Alright, I followed the link above to the page citing this, but I never received an email, there was never a popup or any notification of that page Richelle linked to when I logged in. Literally had I not been on this site I’d still be clueless about it. Wyndham screwed up on this (big surprise)... I wonder how many others had no notification. The website updated have been horrific again as well.


----------



## dgalati

With this new temporary (wink wink) policy in play has anyone calculated how many more years will it take for the sunk cost to be recouped ?


----------



## am1

If it was me I would sue.  I would find some one or a few who knows where the bodies are.  If i had reservations inside 15 days I would add a guest name to get the points refunded. If thats still the cancellation policy.  Devalues the ownership more then it values it.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> If it was me I would sue.


Did you sue, when it was you?

Easy to spend someone else's money.


----------



## Sandi Bo

VacayKat said:


> Alright, I followed the link above to the page citing this, but I never received an email, there was never a popup or any notification of that page Richelle linked to when I logged in. Literally had I not been on this site I’d still be clueless about it. Wyndham screwed up on this (big surprise)... I wonder how many others had no notification. The website updated have been horrific again as well.


So the email subject was:  Fwd: Spring Is The Perfect Time To Get Back On Vacation
Easy to go to the bit bucket?
And in it a link to the important details (the limiting access by non-owners):   One way we are prioritizing owner reservations is by temporarily limiting access by non-owners at a few of your favorite Club Wyndham locations for the most sought-after dates.

Pretty low key, I'll just leave this right here and see if anyone notices? 

If you book a reservation now, at an affected resort (or add a guest confirmation) it does have verbiage warning you (even if your dates are not in the affected range. For example, this is on Bonnet Creek's confirmations now:
Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on May 28 – June 2, June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.

I am surprised they would try this again, as it bombed last time. Owners screamed, they retracted. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. As always, lol.


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> So the email subject was:  Fwd: Spring Is The Perfect Time To Get Back On Vacation
> Easy to go to the bit bucket?
> And in it a link to the important details (the limiting access by non-owners):   One way we are prioritizing owner reservations is by temporarily limiting access by non-owners at a few of your favorite Club Wyndham locations for the most sought-after dates.
> 
> Pretty low key, I'll just leave this right here and see if anyone notices?
> 
> If you book a reservation now, at an affected resort (or add a guest confirmation) it does have verbiage warning you (even if your dates are not in the affected range. For example, this is on Bonnet Creek's confirmations now:
> Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on May 28 – June 2, June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.
> 
> I am surprised they would try this again, as it bombed last time. Owners screamed, they retracted. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. As always, lol.


When they did this last year, wasn't it a blanket policy at all resorts at all times, instead of a handful of resorts over major holidays?  I think this time, the number of people complaining would be lower than it was last year.  I could be wrong, but I think it's less likely they will backtrack this time.


----------



## Richelle

am1 said:


> If it was me I would sue.  I would find some one or a few who knows where the bodies are.  If i had reservations inside 15 days I would add a guest name to get the points refunded. If thats still the cancellation policy.  Devalues the ownership more then it values it.


If it's at an affected resort, sure, you could do that.  This is only at a handful of resorts and limited to specific dates.  It certainly devalues ownership for someone who profits from renting timeshares. I am sure major holidays are a large chunk of their revenue.  This is probably hitting them hard.  For the owner who sees rentals getting kicked out, it adds value.  Even if they still don't get the room they want, they know some random stranger off the street who doesn't pay maintenance fees, is also not getting the room. If I was an owner trying to offset my fees and had to refund the money, I would be a bit more than annoyed.  However, I wouldn't be mad at Wyndham for putting the owner ahead of someone who didn't make the financial commitment and risk like the owners do.  But maybe that's just me.  There are plenty of people on the Facebook sites who are applauding the decision.  The people that are making the most noise, are the people who have made a business of renting timeshares.  People are calling them out on it too.


----------



## josegm888

One of the rights of owning real property is the right to allow others a right to use, which means the right to rent your ownership. So for those who complain about people who rent, they are obviously not educated enough to understand that this is a right an owner has when they purchase a timeshare, regardless if you bought from a developer or resale.  I truly believe Wyndham is infringing on that right. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roger830

josegm888 said:


> One of the rights of owning real property is the right to allow others a right to use, which means the right to rent your ownership.



I would agree that this is true for owners that are deeded a specific week and unit. I don't see Wyndham infringing on those rights, just those of club members.


----------



## josegm888

Roger830 said:


> I would agree that this is true for owners that are deeded a specific week and unit. I don't see Wyndham infringing on those rights, just those of club members.



Exactly.  All owners other than CWA have a deeded interest/ownership regardless if that deeded interest is turned into points. You’re assigned a unit and ownership with that deed. With that said, an owner should have the right to use/allow other to use those points/interest how she/he pleases, obviously within the rules of owning real property. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> All owners other than CWA have a deeded interest/ownership regardless if that deeded interest is turned into points. You’re assigned a unit and ownership with that deed. With that said, an owner should have the right to use those points/interest how he pleases, obviously within the rules of owning real property.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Timeshares are different than your house or other real property.  What you are legally entitled to, is different between the two.  With a home, if you're in an HOA, you bound by HOA rules which usually only dictate what you can do on the outside. Timeshare HOAs, dictate a lot of what you can and cannot do inside and outside your timeshare.  Those rules you are obligated to abide by.  I'd have to dig out the bylaws of National Habor, but I do not remember seeing a rule about guests.  Whether you could or could not bring them.  If it does not explicitly says you are entitled to bring guests, and there is nothing in your contract or deed that entitles you to bring guests, you do not have the "right" to bring a guest.  This isn't a house that you own outright.  It's a shared real property.  They (Wyndham or the HOA) can say who you can bring, and who you cannot bring,  If the bylaws say you can bring a guest, then you can probably argue that one.  However, you can only argue it for your home resort, not other resorts.


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> Timeshares are different than your house or other real property. What you are legally entitled to, is different between the two. With a home, if you're in an HOA, you bound by HOA rules which usually only dictate what you can do on the outside. Timeshare HOAs, dictate a lot of what you can and cannot do inside and outside your timeshare. Those rules you are obligated to abide by. I'd have to dig out the bylaws of National Habor, but I do not remember seeing a rule about guests. Whether you could or could not bring them. If it does not explicitly says you are entitled to bring guests, and there is nothing in your contract or deed that entitles you to bring guests, you do not have the "right" to bring a guest. This isn't a house that you own outright. It's a shared real property. They (Wyndham or the HOA) can say who you can bring, and who you cannot bring, If the bylaws say you can bring a guest, then you can probably argue that one. However, you can only argue it for your home resort, not other resorts.



Totally understandable, but I’m mostly talking about home resort ownership and usage. Yes HOA dictates rules but in principle Wyndham deeds are fee simple ownership which by limiting how owners allow others to use their interest and ownership infringes on that right.  Some of those restrictions if taken to court might not be enforceable especially by Florida law. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> Totally understandable, but I’m mostly talking about home resort ownership and usage. Yes HOA dictates rules but in principle Wyndham deeds are fee simple ownership which by limiting how owners allow others to use their interest and ownership infringes on that right.  Some of those restrictions if taken to court might not be enforceable especially by Florida law.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Limiting how?  What specific "rights" are they infringing?  You're making a general statement without having any details on what specific law they are violating.   Having guests at a "shared" property is not a right unless it's dictated by the HOA or your contract.  And even then, only at your home resorts.


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> Limiting how? What specific "rights" are they infringing? You're making a general statement without having any details on what specific law they are violating. Having guests at a "shared" property is not a right unless it's dictated by the HOA or your contract. And even then, only at your home resorts.



Again, they’re are limiting owners the full right to let others use their shared interest based on what they own. Wyndham owners have the full RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. Thats a basic right of owning any type of real property unless there’s a special restriction in your deed that says otherwise which there isn’t. If there was a restriction Wyndham themselves wouldn’t rent owners points to non-owners.  My point is that this is debatable in court. It’s very hypocritical for Wyndham to be able to rent owners points to non-owners how they please but limit owners to rent points on their own for specific dates and resorts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim

Richelle said:


> There was a line in parentheses at the end of what you were quoting.
> 
> Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after March 15)
> 
> Hopefully it answers your question. It goes on to say:
> 
> If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.
> 
> 
> I did not get the email, so maybe the wording is different on it. I’m getting this from the announcement on the webpage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think part of the question was whether cancellation is a certainty or just a possibility.  In most contexts, "subject to" would mean cancellation is a possibility, not a certainty.   Who knows what it means in Wyndham-speak.

A subset is when might this happen -- will the owner get the email almost immediately after entering the guest or at some point between booking and check-in.   When an owner puts a guest on one of the peak period reservations, will a red box pop up like it does for overlapping reservations?  That would be better than some uncertain email.

I already have frequent renters ask if this means their annual Thanksgiving trek to Bonnet Creek is not going to happen.  I guess it does.


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> Again, they’re are limiting owners the full right to let others use their shared interest based on what they own. Wyndham owners have the full RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. Thats a basic right of owning any type of real property unless there’s a special restriction in your deed that says otherwise which there isn’t. If there was a restriction Wyndham themselves wouldn’t rent owners points to non-owners.  My point is that this is debatable in court. It’s very hypocritical for Wyndham to be able to rent owners points to non-owners how they please but limit owners to rent points on their own for specific dates and resorts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I take it you missed the part where Wyndham is NOT renting those dates?  Check extra holidays for those specific dates. Spoiler alert, Wyndham is not renting anything during those dates. 

As I said before, your only "right" might be to have a guest at your HOME resort.  You have no guest "right" at any resort you do not own.  Also, just because you own points at National Harbor, doesn't mean you have a "right" to use them at Bonnet creek.  The reason you're able to do that is because of the exchange system.  You have no "right" to use that system.  If you're paying for it, and they decide they don't want you to use it, they just terminate you and stop charging you the program fee.  Then there would be no exchanging.  Not only would you be limited to using your points at your home resort, but you also couldn't even use the booking system to make reservations.  You'd have to work that out with the resort.  Oh, and you'd still be on the hook for the maintenance fees to the resort.  You'd have to pay the resort directly.  You also wouldn't be able to use GC.  I have no idea what your home resort would do, but I'm guessing they would require you to be there at check-in.

You seem to think just because you own "real" property, you have the same rights as you do with your "home" real property.  If they were the same, you could show up any time during prime season and demand to be given a room.  It's your "real property", why should you have to make a reservation? You should be able to do whatever you want because you own it.  Not really.  You only own part of it.  It's common sense that "shared" real property and "private" real property has entirely different rules and laws.   With shared property, everyone has to follow set rules that allow everyone equal opportunity to enjoy their ownership.  You don't need that with private property,  Bringing friends and booking multiple rooms is not making it equal.  That's one reason why they don't allow owners to use other points from other resorts to book bigger rooms.  You can book what you own in the ARP period and nothing more during that time period.   When you want to point out a law that says renting or allowing others to use your timeshare is a "right" let me know.  Otherwise, you're just providing an uninformed opinion, not fact.  

Let me know how the lawsuit goes.  I'm thinking if someone could overrule this, we would have figured that out a long time ago.  Timeshares have been around for about 50 years I believe.  At the very least, they would have figured it out last year when they did the same thing, and they wouldn't have done it again this year.


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> I take it you missed the part where Wyndham is NOT renting those dates? Check extra holidays for those specific dates. Spoiler alert, Wyndham is not renting anything during those dates.
> 
> As I said before, your only "right" might be to have a guest at your HOME resort. You have no guest "right" at any resort you do not own. Also, just because you own points at National Harbor, doesn't mean you have a "right" to use them at Bonnet creek. The reason you're able to do that is because of the exchange system. You have no "right" to use that system. If you're paying for it, and they decide they don't want you to use it, they just terminate you and stop charging you the program fee. Then there would be no exchanging. Not only would you be limited to using your points at your home resort, but you also couldn't even use the booking system to make reservations. You'd have to work that out with the resort. Oh, and you'd still be on the hook for the maintenance fees to the resort. You'd have to pay the resort directly. You also wouldn't be able to use GC. I have no idea what your home resort would do, but I'm guessing they would require you to be there at check-in.
> 
> You seem to think just because you own "real" property, you have the same rights as you do with your "home" real property. If they were the same, you could show up any time during prime season and demand to be given a room. It's your "real property", why should you have to make a reservation? You should be able to do whatever you want because you own it. Not really. You only own part of it. It's common sense that "shared" real property and "private" real property has entirely different rules and laws. With shared property, everyone has to follow set rules that allow everyone equal opportunity to enjoy their ownership. You don't need that with private property, Bringing friends and booking multiple rooms is not making it equal. That's one reason why they don't allow owners to use other points from other resorts to book bigger rooms. You can book what you own in the ARP period and nothing more during that time period. When you want to point out a law that says renting or allowing others to use your timeshare is a "right" let me know. Otherwise, you're just providing an uninformed opinion, not fact.
> 
> Let me know how the lawsuit goes. I'm thinking if someone could overrule this, we would have figured that out a long time ago. Timeshares have been around for about 50 years I believe. At the very least, they would have figured it out last year when they did the same thing, and they wouldn't have done it again this year.



As I mentioned earlier, I can care less on resorts I don’t own. I’m talking about the ones I do own. Not sure where in any of my posts I talked about non-deeded resorts . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> As I mentioned earlier, I can care less on resorts I don’t own. I’m talking about the ones I do own. Not sure where in any of my posts I talked about non-deeded resorts .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was making a point about how little control you actually have overall.  When it comes to timeshares, the developers have the most control.  They purposely set it up that way.  The question still remains, where is it in writing that you have a "right" to bring a guest to your "shared" real property? Just because you have a deed, doesn't give you carte blanche to do what you want because it's shared property.  You partly own it with many other owners who also don't have carte blanche.  

 If Wyndham wasn't allowed to do this, they would have figured that out last year when they put in a similar policy.  They wouldn't have done it again this year.  They also have an army of lawyers telling them what they can and cannot get away with.  It's one thing to play dumb when it comes to sales practices.  It's a whole another thing to make a public announcement in writing.  If they announced that they were doing something that was illegal, they would be opening themselves up to a bunch of slam dunk lawsuits. If they do backtrack on this policy, it won't likely have anything to do with legality.  It would be more to please the owners.  The owners on Facebook for the most part like the idea.  The ones making the most noise are the ones who profit from their timeshare.  Since they are breaking the "not for commercial" use rule, they won't have a leg to stand on in court.  That doesn't leave many people left who'd be willing to take on that long and expensive battle,.


----------



## Richelle

chapjim said:


> I think part of the question was whether cancellation is a certainty or just a possibility.  In most contexts, "subject to" would mean cancellation is a possibility, not a certainty.   Who knows what it means in Wyndham-speak.
> 
> A subset is when might this happen -- will the owner get the email almost immediately after entering the guest or at some point between booking and check-in.   When an owner puts a guest on one of the peak period reservations, will a red box pop up like it does for overlapping reservations?  That would be better than some uncertain email.
> 
> I already have frequent renters ask if this means their annual Thanksgiving trek to Bonnet Creek is not going to happen.  I guess it does.


If their resorts are on this list for those holidays, yes.  I wouldn't count on Wyndham canceling it right away.  It could happen immediately, or the day before check-in.  Does it matter when it gets canceled or if it might get canceled?  It's still too risky to rent that week for both the buyer and seller.


----------



## chapjim

Richelle said:


> If their resorts are on this list for those holidays, yes.  I wouldn't count on Wyndham canceling it right away.  It could happen immediately, or the day before check-in.  Does it matter when it gets canceled or if it might get canceled?  It's still too risky to rent that week for both the buyer and seller.



Thank you for your insight.


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> I was making a point about how little control you actually have overall. When it comes to timeshares, the developers have the most control. They purposely set it up that way. The question still remains, where is it in writing that you have a "right" to bring a guest to your "shared" real property? Just because you have a deed, doesn't give you carte blanche to do what you want because it's shared property. You partly own it with many other owners who also don't have carte blanche.
> 
> If Wyndham wasn't allowed to do this, they would have figured that out last year when they put in a similar policy. They wouldn't have done it again this year. They also have an army of lawyers telling them what they can and cannot get away with. It's one thing to play dumb when it comes to sales practices. It's a whole another thing to make a public announcement in writing. If they announced that they were doing something that was illegal, they would be opening themselves up to a bunch of slam dunk lawsuits. If they do backtrack on this policy, it won't likely have anything to do with legality. It would be more to please the owners. The owners on Facebook for the most part like the idea. The ones making the most noise are the ones who profit from their timeshare. Since they are breaking the "not for commercial" use rule, they won't have a leg to stand on in court. That doesn't leave many people left who'd be willing to take on that long and expensive battle,.



If we didn’t have the right to do it in the first place we wouldn’t be having this discussion, but we do, hence Wyndham does it as well(rent points). And no, I wouldn’t waste my time suing Wyndham. Wyndham is not the only timeshare program out there, let alone their point value is close to nothing in the resale market. If some owners really think this is going to hurt “profiteers” there’re as naive as the Wyndham sales person wants them to be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> If we didn’t have the right to do it in the first place we wouldn’t be having this discussion, but we do, hence Wyndham does it as well(rent points). And no, I wouldn’t waste my time suing Wyndham. Wyndham is not the only timeshare program out there, let alone their point value is close to nothing in the resale market. If some owners really think this is going to hurt “profiteers” there’re as naive as the Wyndham sales person wants them to be.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just because they allow something to happen, doesn’t mean it’s a “right”. They have chosen not to do anything about it before, because it wasn’t a big enough issue. The last time they went out of megarenrers, it’s because they found a major issue with the system. Otherwise some of them would probably still be around. The only thing naive here is someone thinking they have more control and “rights” then they actually do. 

If this wasn’t hurting profiteers, why are they the ones screaming the loudest on Facebook? I’ve seen a few complaints from owners who are naive enough to think they have complete control over what they do with their points. I’ve seen a few complaints from people who hand not put their relatives name on the reservation yet. The latter are the ones I feel bad for. Not the profiteers that are “outraged” by Wyndham not allowing them to use their points as they see fit. They are trying to get the ownership base stirred up because they know they cannot do anything about it, since they are breaking the “no commercial use” rule. It might not be breaking the bank enough to put some out of business, but they still have to pay back all that money and find another place for all those points. If that means people stop renting Wyndham resort rooms, I’m cool with that. I like seeing owners in rooms. I don’t need to rent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> Just because they allow something to happen, doesn’t mean it’s a “right”. They have chosen not to do anything about it before, because it wasn’t a big enough issue. The last time they went out of megarenrers, it’s because they found a major issue with the system. Otherwise some of them would probably still be around. The only thing naive here is someone thinking they have more control and “rights” then they actually do.
> 
> If this wasn’t hurting profiteers, why are they the ones screaming the loudest on Facebook? I’ve seen a few complaints from owners who are naive enough to think they have complete control over what they do with their points. I’ve seen a few complaints from people who hand not put their relatives name on the reservation yet. The latter are the ones I feel bad for. Not the profiteers that are “outraged” by Wyndham not allowing them to use their points as they see fit. They are trying to get the ownership base stirred up because they know they cannot do anything about it, since they are breaking the “no commercial use” rule. It might not be breaking the bank enough to put some out of business, but they still have to pay back all that money and find another place for all those points. If that means people stop renting Wyndham resort rooms, I’m cool with that. I like seeing owners in rooms. I don’t need to rent.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Again the real profiteers is Wyndham. Do you really think Wyndham would put in place a restriction on renting points that would limit their flexibility and profitability in doing so? Whats good for one profiteer is good for another. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandi Bo

Richelle said:


> When they did this last year, wasn't it a blanket policy at all resorts at all times, instead of a handful of resorts over major holidays?  I think this time, the number of people complaining would be lower than it was last year.  I could be wrong, but I think it's less likely they will backtrack this time.


Yes, last year was a blanket policy. Interesting they didn't do anything to address one of the big concerns many had about friends and family using their timeshare (what happened to having a list of friends and family)? Affecting a subset of the resorts and only certain blackout dates might make some happy (phew, our reunion is in Daytona Beach so it doesn't matter).  But it's more complicated, poorly communicated, make it easier to spread fear amongst the masses.

Still, I wish it were more clear what 'subject to cancellation' means. I thought last year when we added the guest confirmation, it either got cancelled right away or it was okay and we didn't have to worry about it being cancelled. It's not realistic to be at risk of cancellation up until checkin day.  (Back to wanting to know what the rules are - must be the QA person in me).

I will say it may have interesting benefits as far as getting people on vacation. If someone were planning a reunion at Bonnet Creek, it may have just gotten moved to Kingstown Reef, etc. Or pick different dates. Maybe the overall effect is more weeks get used across the system. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with what they did. Just saying that maybe that's a plus to this (and it will help get rid of the glut of points sitting out there).

And, I'll say it again.  I just want to know the rules so I can plan accordingly.  (Still super shady how it was implemented, but then again, this is timeshares and Wyndham certainly gets an assist for the shady side of much of this business).


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> Yes, last year was a blanket policy. Interesting they didn't do anything to address one of the big concerns many had about friends and family using their timeshare (what happened to having a list of friends and family)? Affecting a subset of the resorts and only certain blackout dates might make some happy (phew, our reunion is in Daytona Beach so it doesn't matter). But it's more complicated, poorly communicated, make it easier to spread fear amongst the masses.
> 
> Still, I wish it were more clear what 'subject to cancellation' means. I thought last year when we added the guest confirmation, it either got cancelled right away or it was okay and we didn't have to worry about it being cancelled. It's not realistic to be at risk of cancellation up until checkin day. (Back to wanting to know what the rules are - must be the QA person in me).
> 
> I will say it may have interesting benefits as far as getting people on vacation. If someone were planning a reunion at Bonnet Creek, it may have just gotten moved to Kingstown Reef, etc. Or pick different dates. Maybe the overall effect is more weeks get used across the system. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with what they did. Just saying that maybe that's a plus to this (and it will help get rid of the glut of points sitting out there).
> 
> And, I'll say it again. I just want to know the rules so I can plan accordingly. (Still super shady how it was implemented, but then again, this is timeshares and Wyndham certainly gets an assist for the shady side of much of this business).



Can you type up your list of questions, so I can copy and pasted it into an email? I’ll reach out to one of the senior owner care manager that HitchHiker71 and I talk to, and see if I can get some definitive answers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> Again the real profiteers is Wyndham. Do you really think Wyndham would put in place a restriction on renting points that would limit their flexibility and profitability in doing so? Whats good for one profiteer is good for another.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






AGAIN, they are not renting these dates on Extra holidays. They are not renting anything. 


I’m going to put in my conspiracy theory hat on for a second and say, if they are not doing it for the owners, they are doing it for good PR. Good PR=points sales. Common sense. They don’t need to rent. They make people happy, they are more likely to get people to buy. Their best customers are existing owners. That’s why they want resorts packed with owners on major holidays. More sales. They make more money in points sales then They do rentals. So why not put happy owners in their and increase you likelihood of selling points. 

Wow, that hat was REALLY tight. Maybe that idea you can get onboard with because you refuse to believe the possibility that this benefits the owner. I think it’s both. It’s for both the owner and them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> AGAIN, they are not renting these dates on Extra holidays. They are not renting anything.
> 
> 
> I’m going to put in my conspiracy theory hat on for a second and say, if they are not doing it for the owners, they are doing it for good PR. Good PR=points sales. Common sense. They don’t need to rent. They make people happy, they are more likely to get people to buy. Their best customers are existing owners. That’s why they want resorts packed with owners on major holidays. More sales. They make more money in points sales then They do rentals. So why not put happy owners in their and increase you likelihood of selling points.
> 
> Wow, that hat was REALLY tight. Maybe that idea you can get onboard with because you refuse to believe the possibility that this benefits the owner. I think it’s both. It’s for both the owner and them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Haha good PR? Go to BBB and see how many complaints they have. If they want good PR stop tricking clueless buyers into buying something that’s worth dirt. Common sense is not to buy into something for thousands of dollars that’s worth only hundreds or less in the resale market, let alone with other competitors in the timeshare business who aren’t as petty which allow owners to rent to guests and don’t even charge for a guest confirmation. Don’t get me wrong I like Wyndham, but the way they do business is sketchy. It’s funny how they have problem with people renting out what they paid for but I’m sure they don’t have a problem with selling junk for thousands of dollars to someone who can be our grandmother or grandfather and not give two... I’m all about business but come on let’s be real. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatal


----------



## chapjim

Koala has an article about Wyndham's new guest policy.  There's nothing particularly useful.









						What Wyndham’s Guest Policy Changes Mean For You | KOALA
					

Yesterday, all Club Wyndham owners received a notice abridging their guest certificate rights on holidays at certain resorts. Here's what that means for you.




					www.go-koala.com


----------



## chapjim

Richelle said:


> AGAIN, they are not renting these dates on Extra holidays. They are not renting anything.
> 
> 
> I’m going to put in my conspiracy theory hat on for a second and say, if they are not doing it for the owners, they are doing it for good PR. Good PR=points sales. Common sense. They don’t need to rent. They make people happy, they are more likely to get people to buy. Their best customers are existing owners. That’s why they want resorts packed with owners on major holidays. More sales. They make more money in points sales then They do rentals. So why not put happy owners in their and increase you likelihood of selling points.
> 
> Wow, that hat was REALLY tight. Maybe that idea you can get onboard with because you refuse to believe the possibility that this benefits the owner. I think it’s both. It’s for both the owner and them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The problem with trying to make owners happy is that in making one class of owners happy, they honk off another class of owners.  Maybe that's what Wyndham wants.  Make large owners unhappy so they will bail out and give points back through Ovations (insert latest program name here).


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> Can you type up your list of questions, so I can copy and pasted it into an email? I’ll reach out to one of the senior owner care manager that HitchHiker71 and I talk to, and see if I can get some definitive answers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ask them when they will stop the abuse of VIP owners using resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrades. Think about all the rentals that could be eliminated and the inventory that would become available for owners eliminating this loophole. Remember cancel and rebook at one time was also considered a benefit as this is now.


----------



## montygz

chapjim said:


> The problem with trying to make owners happy is that in making one class of owners happy, they honk off another class of owners.  Maybe that's what Wyndham wants.  Make large owners unhappy so they will bail out and give points back through Ovations (insert latest program name here).


Yes, no matter what Wyndham does someone will be unhappy. I'm sure owners who are shut out of reservations don't like looking on ebay and seeing dozens of them up for bid.

When these timeshare programs were conceived they had no idea about how the internet would be able to turn them into mini rental businesses. They've obviously had years to do something about it, but what do you do? Many of the benefits enjoyed by regular Wyndham users are also used by big renters.

Wyndham also enjoys having fresh renter cattle to lure to sales meetings and it knows that renting helps owners pay their maintenance fees and avoid costly defaults.


----------



## Richelle

dgalati said:


> Ask them when they will stop the abuse of VIP owners using resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrades. Think about all the rentals that could be eliminated and the inventory that would become available for owners eliminating this loophole. Remember cancel and rebook at one time was also considered a benefit as this is now.



It is true some see it as a benefit, but those who watched what happened when cancel rebook went away, know it’s not a benefit unless it’s in writing. The main difference between the two, is the sales guys were promoting cancel rebook as a benefit. They are not promoting buying resale. Resale is a bad word to them. They ingrained that into their head. In the timeshare sales world, The number one rule about the resale market is, you don’t talk about the resale market. So if a sales person did start talking about the resale market, it would get nipped in the bud pretty quick. If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue. 

You already know my story. How most of my points are used on family vacations. We book large rooms far out. No discounts and little to no chance of upgrades. I have 700k that count as retail. My discounted and upgraded reservations don’t total more then that on a normal year., even when I really try. 700k during the standard window Could get me a week (or less) to 8 or 9 weeks. In the discount window, with free upgrades, I can easily double that and I’m only Gold. I like to think I’m pretty savvy on how I use my points. Maybe a little bit more then your average bear. If I’m not getting much more then that, then probably at least half the other VIP base that has resale are not getting enough discounted or upgradable reservations that total more then their retail points. So why punish the entire VIP base for one group of owners?

It may sound simple to separate resale and retail by setting a flag, but that’s only one step. You have a ton of rules that you have to set up on the system. What points get burned off first? What happens if you have to use a mix of resale and retail to book a reservation. Is it still eligible for the discount? Is it eligible for an upgrade? Can you use a mix of both resale and retail in the RARP window? Do you have two separate deadlines for moving points forward? Can you use those extra free GC of a reservation made with resale points? If not, what happens if you have both a mix or resale and retail? Which guest certificates get burned off first? The two that can be used for any reservation or the three that are eligible? Ok so the ones that are made with resale can only the two GC. What happens when you run out of the two resale and are have three, are you supposed to pay for more? Talk about confusing the owner. It’s a mammoth undertaking that would also require educating the owner. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m not even saying it will never happen. It very well could. If Wyndham finds they can do it in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, and the benefits are work the risk, they will. However, in order for them to go through all that trouble, they have to ask themselves. Is it a big enough problem to go through all this? If it is a big problem, is there a cheaper and cleaner way to address it. I’m thinking the guest certificate policies over major holidays may be a start. Target the guest certificates and it keeps renters from picking up prime weeks. Let the people offsetting their maintenance fees offer their points up for rental instead of holding a reservation for months in hopes of renting it when someone else could book it and use it for themselves. 


This is your one for the week. I will acknowledge your broken record/minced horse meat comments once a week. If you want more banter from me, come up with something original. If I ignore one of your comments, it’s because you already used up your one for the week. 

Edit: once here, and if I’m feeling generous, once on Facebook to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

montygz said:


> Yes, no matter what Wyndham does someone will be unhappy. I'm sure owners who are shut out of reservations don't like looking on ebay and seeing dozens of them up for bid.
> 
> When these timeshare programs were conceived they had no idea about how the internet would be able to turn them into mini rental businesses. They've obviously had years to do something about it, but what do you do? Many of the benefits enjoyed by regular Wyndham users are also used by big renters.
> 
> Wyndham also enjoys having fresh renter cattle to lure to sales meetings and it knows that renting helps owners pay their maintenance fees and avoid costly defaults.



Good points. There is a benefit to bringing in fresh meat and it does help offset maintenance fees for regular owners. So rentals do have some benefit to Wyndham. I did ask a Wyndham executive if Wyndham was ok with the occasional rental. They said they were ok with the occasional rental. However, if it’s more then that, it’s up to them (Wyndham) to figure out how to help the owner because they obviously have more points then they can use. I think that’s why they have certified exit. It’s no longer just one way to exit your timeshare and no longer limited to just contracts that are paid off. They offer other options to owners to either help find a way to get them through tough financial times by deferring payments or helping them find a way to exit. They might even help them downsize their contracts if they need to. It’s cheaper to help the owner then it is to let it go into collections. 

I got a bit side tracked. They are ok with the occasional rental. They never said they were ok with renting for profit. They never said they were ok with people setting up businesses. In fact, the directory expressly forbids commercial renting. I think what needs to happen is that they need to put their foot down. Put on the directory that if they suspect an owner is using their timeshare for commercial purposes, their account in the Club Wyndham system will be suspended or terminated. Right now it says “for personal use and enjoyment. Not for commercial use”. The RCI terms of use explicitly says that there are consequences to renting. They don’t have to terminate all renting like RCI does. Just commercial. Specificity mention that “commercial” use will be grounds for suspension or termination of your membership into the club. Once that’s in there, Wyndham can start swing the axe on these rental companies. 

Don’t get me wrong. If someone wants to rent enough to completely pay off their fees, that’s fine in my book. Not many people are willing to go through the trouble, so if the only people renting were regular owners who also use their timeshare for themselves, it wouldn’t be an issue. It’s when you turn it into a business that I have a problem with. To turn a profit you have to rent out a lot and a lot of it has to be prime weeks. Plus it’s breaking the commercial use rule. The rest of us have to follow the rules. Why do they get to break them?

These are just my thoughts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> It is true some see it as a benefit, but those who watched what happened when cancel rebook went away, know it’s not a benefit unless it’s in writing. The main difference between the two, is the sales guys were promoting cancel rebook as a benefit. They are not promoting buying resale. Resale is a bad word to them. They ingrained that into their head. In the timeshare sales world, The number one rule about the resale market is, you don’t talk about the resale market. So if a sales person did start talking about the resale market, it would get nipped in the bud pretty quick. If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue.
> 
> You already know my story. How most of my points are used on family vacations. We book large rooms far out. No discounts and little to no chance of upgrades. I have 700k that count as retail. My discounted and upgraded reservations don’t total more then that on a normal year., even when I really try. 700k during the standard window Could get me a week (or less) to 8 or 9 weeks. In the discount window, with free upgrades, I can easily double that and I’m only Gold. I like to think I’m pretty savvy on how I use my points. Maybe a little bit more then your average bear. If I’m not getting much more then that, then probably at least half the other VIP base that has resale are not getting enough discounted or upgradable reservations that total more then their retail points. So why punish the entire VIP base for one group of owners?
> 
> It may sound simple to separate resale and retail by setting a flag, but that’s only one step. You have a ton of rules that you have to set up on the system. What points get burned off first? What happens if you have to use a mix of resale and retail to book a reservation. Is it still eligible for the discount? Is it eligible for an upgrade? Can you use a mix of both resale and retail in the RARP window? Do you have two separate deadlines for moving points forward? Can you use those extra free GC of a reservation made with resale points? If not, what happens if you have both a mix or resale and retail? Which guest certificates get burned off first? The two that can be used for any reservation or the three that are eligible? Ok so the ones that are made with resale can only the two GC. What happens when you run out of the two resale and are have three, are you supposed to pay for more? Talk about confusing the owner. It’s a mammoth undertaking that would also require educating the owner. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m not even saying it will never happen. It very well could. If Wyndham finds they can do it in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, and the benefits are work the risk, they will. However, in order for them to go through all that trouble, they have to ask themselves. Is it a big enough problem to go through all this? If it is a big problem, is there a cheaper and cleaner way to address it. I’m thinking the guest certificate policies over major holidays may be a start. Target the guest certificates and it keeps renters from picking up prime weeks. Let the people offsetting their maintenance fees offer their points up for rental instead of holding a reservation for months in hopes of renting it when someone else could book it and use it for themselves.
> 
> 
> This is your one for the week. I will acknowledge your broken record/minced horse meat comments once a week. If you want more banter from me, come up with something original. If I ignore one of your comments, it’s because you already used up your one for the week.
> 
> Edit: once here, and if I’m feeling generous, once on Facebook to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't under estimate Wyndham's IT department! It could be easy as just another update to enhance the user experience.


----------



## tstreetervp

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they will limit their renting of inventory they control to non owners?


Lol great point of course not. I had ads up on home away and they strong armed them and told them they were the only ones who could rent out Wyndham properties.  These Tumeshare companies are turning into mafia type organizations and I worked in the business for 20 years they are making a killing giving you very little for a cruise and then renting out their points online


----------



## dandjane1

*Why would an owner EVER give any weeks or points to EH?!
Their portion of whatever they say they rented it for is ridiculous.*


----------



## tschwa2

I repasted the resorts and dates below.  Even if I were ok with this for the holidays, I think Wyndham  painting with an overly broad brush for Independence Day and Christmas.  June 25 is 9 days before Independence day.  That is 15 days of the summer blocked off that I can't book for friends or family let alone rent out. It's 15 days at Christmas too and Dec 17-20th is actually fairly low demand even in some of the resorts listed.    



*Memorial Day (May 28 – June 2)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Governor’s Green
Club Wyndham Skyline Towers
Club Wyndham National Harbor
*Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Skyline Tower
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Desert Blue
Club Wyndham Austin
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
*Labor Day (Sept. 3-8)*

Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon
Club Wyndham National Harbor
Club Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Club Wyndham Panama City Beach
Club Wyndham Emerald Grande at Destin
Club Wyndham at Majestic Sun
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
*Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Year’s Eve (Nov. 19-27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022)*

Club Wyndham Santa Barbara
Club Wyndham Sea Gardens
Club Wyndham Royal Vista
Club Wyndham Palm-Aire
Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Cypress Palms
Club Wyndham Star Island
Club Wyndham Reunion
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Harbour Lights
Club Wyndham Great Smokies Lodge
Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon
Margaritaville Vacation Club by Wyndham - St. Thomas
Club Wyndham Elysian Beach Resort
Club Wyndham Resort at Avon *(Only limited from Dec. 17 – Jan. 2)*
Club Wyndham Park City *(Only limited from Dec. 17 – Jan. 2)*


----------



## Richelle

josegm888 said:


> Again the real profiteers is Wyndham. Do you really think Wyndham would put in place a restriction on renting points that would limit their flexibility and profitability in doing so? Whats good for one profiteer is good for another.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It will solely depend on how many points sales they get during those holidays.  Like I said, existing customers are their best customers. If net profit from sales exceeds the rentals, you better believe they will continue with blocking off major holidays for the most popular resorts.  It has the added bonus of making them look good.  Obviously, it will not be every resort.  If they can figure out how to single out actual friends and family while keeping out renters, they will do it.  Friends and family are the second easiest sale because their friend or a family member has already sold it to them.  It's just up to the sales guy to give them a number they can swallow.  My family knows better than to buy.  I told them they need to talk to me first before buying in.  If they really really want in, after I tell them the drawbacks, I would point them to the resale market.  Not all members know to do that.

I don't give BBB reviews much credit.  First, because people will complain more than they will compliment.  If something goes right, it's rare someone notices.  It's even rarer for them to leave a review on BBB.  I couldn't tell you when I last left a review on BBB for anyone. If something goes wrong, they notice.  That's when they start speaking up.  So the reviews are going to be skewed towards the negative.  Second, many of these people bit off more than they can chew because they let a total stranger tell them what's best for them.  Or they didn't bother to learn about the product.  There was one woman who was so infuriated because she hasn't been able to use her timeshare for three years.  Turns out she was trying to book a year out at resorts that were not her home resort.  She has to put her vacation time in a year out, so that's when she started looking.  Had she taken 10 minutes to read about the booking windows, it would have saved her 3 years' worth of frustration.  Now she is saying it's too complicated to figure out when she can book.  I know I would be pretty mad if I could never fund anything.  However, I wouldn't wait three years to ask why.  So I take any BBB reviews with a huge grain of salt.  That goes for any company.  Not just Wyndham.

As far as PR goes, they have been making changes in an attempt to garner goodwill.  Do you think they would have had such a generous cancellation policy in place last year if they didn't.  Do you think they would have allowed owners until the end of their use year to move points forward to next year if they didn't care at all about the owner?  They even waived the fee.  Do you think they would have waived fees for converting your points to Wyndham rewards points?  Wyndham rewards conversion is not the best return, but waiving that money-making $99 fee made it a better deal.  I won't argue that they didn't make a series of missteps last year with the website, but I won't get into that here.  There is an entire thread dedicated to that. However, they have been changing the way they do things.  They were starting to roll out a program where they email the owner before they arrive, asking them to sign up for a meeting and choose their gift.  One lady said she declined, and no one asked her at check-in to go to one.  They just handed her the room keys and sent her on her way.  That was supposed to be rolled out system-wide in 2020, but COVID changed thier priorities.  Not sure when they will make that a priority again, but I suspect, for now, they are focused on making back some of that lost income from the resorts being closed last year.

I get you to have a negative view of Wyndham, and you want so badly to think they are evil, but they are not.  They are a for-profit business.  Like every for-profit business, they do things to make a profit.  Believe it or not, doing things that benefit the owner does help with that.  If you cannot see that, maybe you should take a class on consumer behavior.


----------



## josegm888

Richelle said:


> It will solely depend on how many points sales they get during those holidays. Like I said, existing customers are their best customers. If net profit from sales exceeds the rentals, you better believe they will continue with blocking off major holidays for the most popular resorts. It has the added bonus of making them look good. Obviously, it will not be every resort. If they can figure out how to single out actual friends and family while keeping out renters, they will do it. Friends and family are the second easiest sale because their friend or a family member has already sold it to them. It's just up to the sales guy to give them a number they can swallow. My family knows better than to buy. I told them they need to talk to me first before buying in. If they really really want in, after I tell them the drawbacks, I would point them to the resale market. Not all members know to do that.
> 
> I don't give BBB reviews much credit. First, because people will complain more than they will compliment. If something goes right, it's rare someone notices. It's even rarer for them to leave a review on BBB. I couldn't tell you when I last left a review on BBB for anyone. If something goes wrong, they notice. That's when they start speaking up. So the reviews are going to be skewed towards the negative. Second, many of these people bit off more than they can chew because they let a total stranger tell them what's best for them. Or they didn't bother to learn about the product. There was one woman who was so infuriated because she hasn't been able to use her timeshare for three years. Turns out she was trying to book a year out at resorts that were not her home resort. She has to put her vacation time in a year out, so that's when she started looking. Had she taken 10 minutes to read about the booking windows, it would have saved her 3 years' worth of frustration. Now she is saying it's too complicated to figure out when she can book. I know I would be pretty mad if I could never fund anything. However, I wouldn't wait three years to ask why. So I take any BBB reviews with a huge grain of salt. That goes for any company. Not just Wyndham.
> 
> As far as PR goes, they have been making changes in an attempt to garner goodwill. Do you think they would have had such a generous cancellation policy in place last year if they didn't. Do you think they would have allowed owners until the end of their use year to move points forward to next year if they didn't care at all about the owner? They even waived the fee. Do you think they would have waived fees for converting your points to Wyndham rewards points? Wyndham rewards conversion is not the best return, but waiving that money-making $99 fee made it a better deal. I won't argue that they didn't make a series of missteps last year with the website, but I won't get into that here. There is an entire thread dedicated to that. However, they have been changing the way they do things. They were starting to roll out a program where they email the owner before they arrive, asking them to sign up for a meeting and choose their gift. One lady said she declined, and no one asked her at check-in to go to one. They just handed her the room keys and sent her on her way. That was supposed to be rolled out system-wide in 2020, but COVID changed thier priorities. Not sure when they will make that a priority again, but I suspect, for now, they are focused on making back some of that lost income from the resorts being closed last year.
> 
> I get you to have a negative view of Wyndham, and you want so badly to think they are evil, but they are not. They are a for-profit business. Like every for-profit business, they do things to make a profit. Believe it or not, doing things that benefit the owner does help with that. If you cannot see that, maybe you should take a class on consumer behavior.



I don’t have a negative view of Wyndham, reason being I bought in the system for what it is worth in the resale market and put my money on other timeshare programs that weren’t worth dirt. I just don’t sugar coat things so that they’re easier to swallow. I’m definitely not an advocate like you. I have multiple timeshares and when I compare them to Wyndham I’ve come to the conclusion that Wyndham is one of the most complicated,  least transparent, pretty unstable when it comes to their rules/restrictions and plus they charge for everything.  With that said is someone asked me, should I buy into Wyndham? I would reply with a maybe and give them what would be my first option based on their cash flow and income, but Wyndham probably wouldn’t be my first choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpeacock

I don't recall seeing in this thread the exact verbage of the limit on guest reservations. This screenshot was from a reservation we just made at Bonnet creek. It's found in the small print of the reservation confirmation. We never received any email from Wyndham regarding this new "temporary" policy.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cyrus24

peacockdesignsinc said:


> I don't recall seeing in this thread the exact verbage of the limit on guest reservations. This screenshot was from a reservation we just made at Bonnet creek. It's found in the small print of the reservation confirmation. We never received any email from Wyndham regarding this new "temporary" policy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


You received the message with a confirmation after actually applying the Guests name and getting the certificate?  Just curious.  It sounds like the system let's you book for a guest and gives you a warning with the confirmation.  Please let us know if/when your reservation gets cancelled.  It would be nice know what they are actually doing with the 'subject to cancellation' clause.  I'm needing a GC for Memorial Day weekend at one of the noted resorts and have warned the family member that the reservation could get cancelled.  Hopefully Wyndham doesn't wait until 24 hours before arrival to cancel.  That would be cruel.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I hope WorldMark is not doing this.  I have had reservations for summer at Dolphin's Cove for a year, in hopes that Disneyland would reopen, and it just may reopen soon.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> The problem with trying to make owners happy is that in making one class of owners happy, they honk off another class of owners.


The owner who already had a large unit booked months ago, or the owner who books last-minute for a small party will probably not be affected. Setting aside the renters, the owner who's decided to travel with relatives because everyone's vaccinated by summer, but it's too late to luck into a large unit and they need more small units than they have owners on the account, they're going to be peeved.



Sandi Bo said:


> it's more complicated, poorly communicated



But, but, but Wyndham told us all the other recent changes were done to _SIMPLIFY_ things for us!


----------



## rpeacock

When you asked: "You received the message with a confirmation after actually applying the Guests name and getting the certificate? Just curious."

We did not apply a guest reservation to this reservation. So we did not test the limit.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lisa P

josegm888 said:


> Again, they’re are limiting owners the full right to let others use their shared interest based on what they own. Wyndham owners have the full RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. Thats a basic right of owning any type of real property unless there’s a special restriction in your deed that says otherwise which there isn’t.


Actually, not always, as HOAs often have the legal ability to make changes to bylaws. It is the HOA's duty to enact and enforce rules which enhance the enjoyment and protect the value of the neighborhood for the owners.

We live in a full-ownership condo ("shared property") in a popular vacation area. The deed said/says nothing about a restriction on owners being able to rent it out, nor did the original bylaws by the developer. Within a few years of sell-out of the community, there were renters in 26% of the units and it impacted the owner-occupants' enjoyment of neighborhood life. It also threatened the future value of their investment. So the HOA voted to amend the bylaws and restrict renting out units to just 5% of the total units, and only by owners who had previously occupied their unit for a minimum of 2 years. Existing renting families were grandfathered and able to stay and continue to renew their leases. But by 1 year after the vote, no units could be rented out to a _new renter_ until the percentage of units being occupied by a non-family member of the owner had dropped below 5%. By that time, all leases and lease renewals had to be for a period of 1 year or longer. Owner-investors tried to sue the HOA and found they had no legal standing.

When we became empty-nesters, we downsized from a 4BR house to our 2BR condo (and got rid of our mortgage ). We only considered communities which had this rental restriction in the bylaws. We very much enjoy our stable neighborhood and our wonderful neighbors, partly because the HOA has done its job well. "Full rights" of individual owners in a shared interest are not necessarily the same as how you've described them in your post above.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> The problem with trying to make owners happy is that in making one class of owners happy, they honk off another class of owners.  Maybe that's what Wyndham wants.  Make large owners unhappy so they will bail out and give points back through Ovations (insert latest program name here).


Ovations the gift that keeps giving (back to Wyndham). Sell high buy low with a continuous flow of free inventory. Its a business model most companies could only dream of. Car dealerships are close to the same business model but they actually have to buy their used inventory.  Even at a bank auction there's value in the resale car inventory.  Unlike a resale timeshare which the developer sets a fair price of $0.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Ovations the gift that keeps giving (back to Wyndham). Sell high buy low with a continuous flow of free inventory. Its a business model most companies could only dream of.


At least compare apple to apples.  How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars?  How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?

How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car?  At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.

Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done.  Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> At least compare apple to apples.  How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars?  How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?
> 
> How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car?  At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.
> 
> Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done.  Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.



I've seen posts from people talking about their resort, not a Wyndham resort. That the resort will take back your week back if you pay $2000-$5000. I thought some said you also had to pay the next year's maintenance fees.

I agree that Certified Exit, I think that's what they renamed Ovations, can be an excellent solution for many Wyndham owners. It sure beats being bilked for thousands of dollars by some company promising they can sell your timeshare.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> At least compare apple to apples.  How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars?  How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?
> 
> How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car?  At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.
> 
> Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done.  Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.


I get it. I'm just stating the facts that a used car has more value. The burden of paying maintenance fees is what helps Wyndham set the resale value at $0/1000.


----------



## LDBEH

Wow - miss a week and miss a lot!  As an owner who rents several units each year, this is an added hoop to jump through, but I do see it, as mentioned earlier, in the best interest of all/majority members.  Wyndham has many jobs, but the main two are to keep owners happy and fill as many rooms with them as possible - and to keep shareholders happy and defend the bottom line.  

My question is for an overlapping reservation of the dates mentioned.  Can you have an guest certificate on a week that extends into the restricted time periods?  What if I had a reservation for a family member from June 20-27 at Bonnet Creek - would this be a reservation that was subject to cancellation?  Only the last two nights fall into the restricted time frame...so what does that mean for my cousin and his family.  I obviously did not see this in time to get the guest confirmation into his name.  Guess I will call to find out.


----------



## Sandi Bo

LDBEH said:


> Wow - miss a week and miss a lot!  As an owner who rents several units each year, this is an added hoop to jump through, but I do see it, as mentioned earlier, in the best interest of all/majority members.  Wyndham has many jobs, but the main two are to keep owners happy and fill as many rooms with them as possible - and to keep shareholders happy and defend the bottom line.
> 
> My question is for an overlapping reservation of the dates mentioned.  Can you have an guest certificate on a week that extends into the restricted time periods?  What if I had a reservation for a family member from June 20-27 at Bonnet Creek - would this be a reservation that was subject to cancellation?  Only the last two nights fall into the restricted time frame...so what does that mean for my cousin and his family.  I obviously did not see this in time to get the guest confirmation into his name.  Guess I will call to find out.


Earlier I told Richelle I'd post a list of all the questions/concerns/clarifications requested that I (as well as reviewing other comments here on TUG) had and she had someone she would try to run it by. Thanks for the reminder to get this done.  Here's my list for you @Richelle   (my questions, tried to capture other comments in this thread but stopped when things seemed to get too 'out there' for this topic):

*Please define 'subject to cancelation'. 
  - Will 100% of all reservations at the list resorts/dates be canceled for the remainder of year when a guest confirmation is added or will some reservations be honored?
 -  Will the cancelation happen immediately when the guest confirmation is added, is it automatic, or is it a manual process?
 -  If it doesn't happen immediately, is the reservation 'safe' or is it subject to cancelation up until the day of checkin?
*Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation.  Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?
*Are you making one-off exceptions to this policy? If so, please advise what kind of rules/exceptions we can expect to be followed and whom we should call for an exception? If and exception is granted, how will that be notated on the reservation?
* What if I have an existing reservation not in the blackout period, add a guest, and later add a night that then causes the entire reservation to extend into the blackout period. Does it now become 'subject to cancellation'?
* How does Travel and Leasure fit in? They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches

* General comments. 
   - Extremely poor implementation. Announce 4 hours before it went into effect. Some lead time would have been appreciated.  Will this continue to 2022? We need to know asap as people do plan in advance and this affects our planning (and for sure messed up some people in 2021)
   - Not everyone got the email. The information is buried on the website. More visibility was needed. Communication failure, big time.
   - Message about blackouts and cancellations is now on EVERY confirmation, owner or guest, for a resort that has some blackout dates. What a shame to alarm someone with an unaffected reservation of policy that does not affect them.
   - I like the idea it will encourage use of other resorts and/or lower volume dates.
   - Encouraged it appears Extra Holidays is following the same rules. Super important for all of us to see that commitment from Wyndham.
   - Would be interesting to hear the why's of what resorts we picked, and why some many of us expected to be included were not
   - Many owners have expressed and interest in some type of friends and family list. Is Wyndham considering anything in that area. Would have alleviated some of the major adverse affects for owners using their timeshare for friends and family.  (Devil's advocate though, why is allowing friends and family okay but not renters - neither are paying maintenance fees or have skin in the game (purchase points/long-term commitment)
   - Noting concerns by some that Wyndham needs to respect an owners RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. What say did the legal team have on this?
   - It's been mentioned it would be nice if the system would alert us when booking or when a guest confirmation, the reservation may be canceled. Would be great if the system wouldn't let us add a guest confirmation and we could choose whether or not we want to cancel
   - Most importantly - some advanced notice and transparency would have been greatly appreciated

If you can get some answers, especially to how it's going to be implemented aspects, they will be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you!


----------



## Sandi Bo

chapjim said:


> Koala has an article about Wyndham's new guest policy.  There's nothing particularly useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Wyndham’s Guest Policy Changes Mean For You | KOALA
> 
> 
> Yesterday, all Club Wyndham owners received a notice abridging their guest certificate rights on holidays at certain resorts. Here's what that means for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.go-koala.com


First of all - not ALL owners got the notification.  Secondly, too bad it makes no mention of it being temporary, etc.  Seems like it likely caused more harm than good, IMO, but just guessing. I'm not a member of Koala.


----------



## Sandi Bo

peacockdesignsinc said:


> I don't recall seeing in this thread the exact verbage of the limit on guest reservations. This screenshot was from a reservation we just made at Bonnet creek. It's found in the small print of the reservation confirmation. We never received any email from Wyndham regarding this new "temporary" policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Too bad it is on ALL Bonnet Creek reservations, owners and guests, affected and non-affected dates :-(   

But already a pet peave of mine, these confirmations aren't the best.  I also have the following on all of of my confirmations (owner or guest) and I am not PR.


----------



## chapjim

Richelle said:


> It is true some see it as a benefit, but those who watched what happened when cancel rebook went away, know it’s not a benefit unless it’s in writing. The main difference between the two, is the sales guys were promoting cancel rebook as a benefit. They are not promoting buying resale. Resale is a bad word to them. They ingrained that into their head. In the timeshare sales world, The number one rule about the resale market is, you don’t talk about the resale market. So if a sales person did start talking about the resale market, it would get nipped in the bud pretty quick. If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue.
> 
> You already know my story. How most of my points are used on family vacations. We book large rooms far out. No discounts and little to no chance of upgrades. I have 700k that count as retail. My discounted and upgraded reservations don’t total more then that on a normal year., even when I really try. 700k during the standard window Could get me a week (or less) to 8 or 9 weeks. In the discount window, with free upgrades, I can easily double that and I’m only Gold. I like to think I’m pretty savvy on how I use my points. Maybe a little bit more then your average bear. If I’m not getting much more then that, then probably at least half the other VIP base that has resale are not getting enough discounted or upgradable reservations that total more then their retail points. So why punish the entire VIP base for one group of owners?
> 
> It may sound simple to separate resale and retail by setting a flag, but that’s only one step. You have a ton of rules that you have to set up on the system. What points get burned off first? What happens if you have to use a mix of resale and retail to book a reservation. Is it still eligible for the discount? Is it eligible for an upgrade? Can you use a mix of both resale and retail in the RARP window? Do you have two separate deadlines for moving points forward? Can you use those extra free GC of a reservation made with resale points? If not, what happens if you have both a mix or resale and retail? Which guest certificates get burned off first? The two that can be used for any reservation or the three that are eligible? Ok so the ones that are made with resale can only the two GC. What happens when you run out of the two resale and are have three, are you supposed to pay for more? Talk about confusing the owner. It’s a mammoth undertaking that would also require educating the owner. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m not even saying it will never happen. It very well could. If Wyndham finds they can do it in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, and the benefits are work the risk, they will. However, in order for them to go through all that trouble, they have to ask themselves. Is it a big enough problem to go through all this? If it is a big problem, is there a cheaper and cleaner way to address it. I’m thinking the guest certificate policies over major holidays may be a start. Target the guest certificates and it keeps renters from picking up prime weeks. Let the people offsetting their maintenance fees offer their points up for rental instead of holding a reservation for months in hopes of renting it when someone else could book it and use it for themselves.
> 
> 
> This is your one for the week. I will acknowledge your broken record/minced horse meat comments once a week. If you want more banter from me, come up with something original. If I ignore one of your comments, it’s because you already used up your one for the week.
> 
> Edit: once here, and if I’m feeling generous, once on Facebook to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Only one comment about this post.  I think you have the following statement backwards.

"If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue."


----------



## chapjim

I have two reservations at Skyline Tower, booked back in January for a guest, but still in my name.  Dates are June 19-26.

From the Letter:
*Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Desert Blue
Club Wyndham Austin
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
From OP's List:
*Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*

Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
*Club Wyndham Skyline Towe*r
Club Wyndham Midtown 45
Club Wyndham Desert Blue
Club Wyndham Austin
Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
Club Wyndham La Cascada
Club Wyndham Park City
OP's list came from the web site but I don't see Skyline Tower on the website's list now.  So it would appear that I'll be able to to add the guests' names when the time comes.

Also, Wyndham can subtract from the list.  Should we infer that  Wyndham can add to the list as well?


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> I have two reservations at Skyline Tower, booked back in January for a guest, but still in my name. Dates are June 19-26.
> 
> From the Letter:
> *Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*
> 
> Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
> Club Wyndham Midtown 45
> Club Wyndham Desert Blue
> Club Wyndham Austin
> Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
> Club Wyndham La Cascada
> Club Wyndham Park City
> From OP's List:
> *Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)*
> 
> Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
> *Club Wyndham Skyline Towe*r
> Club Wyndham Midtown 45
> Club Wyndham Desert Blue
> Club Wyndham Austin
> Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
> Club Wyndham La Cascada
> Club Wyndham Park City
> OP's list came from the web site but I don't see Skyline Tower on the website's list now. So it would appear that I'll be able to to add the guests' names when the time comes.
> 
> Also, Wyndham can subtract from the list. Should we infer that Wyndham can add to the list as well?



Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Owner's here were pretty upset at the lack of notice.  Imagine if Wyndham starts adding resorts!


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Owner's here were pretty upset at the lack of notice.  Imagine if Wyndham starts adding resorts!


You have this statement wrong. The only owners that are upset are the owners that rent. Lack of notice or adding resorts to the list makes no difference to a owner that uses a reservation for personal use.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Owners that have owned for the last several years sould know this. This is especially true knowing Wyndham has put a priority on eliminating the mega-renter.


----------



## tschwa2

dgalati said:


> You have this statement wrong. The only owners that are upset are the owners that rent. Lack of notice or adding resorts to the list makes no difference to a owner that uses a reservation for personal use.


Owners who book for family member are also upset.  Sometimes bringing extended family requires more units than owners on the contract.  My husband can't get as much vacation time as I can during holiday periods so that means if I need a second unit for friends or family I leave the second unit in his name even though I know he isn't coming until later because non timeshare owning family getting a free vacation flake out sometimes or plans change.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> Owners who book for family member are also upset.  Sometimes bringing extended family requires more units than owners on the contract.  My husband can't get as much vacation time as I can during holiday periods so that means if I need a second unit for friends or family I leave the second unit in his name even though I know he isn't coming until later because non timeshare owning family getting a free vacation flake out sometimes or plans change.


GC's were intended for family and friends. Somewhere along the way they became abused for rentals to cover maintenance fees. The GC's  being eliminated during busy times should help more owners booking for personal use then it hurts. The elimination of GC's used with resale points along with VIP discounts and upgrades should also help owners booking for personal use. Wyndham is taking back inventory that is being abused by a few just like cancel and book was. IMHO squeezing out the owners renting is better for owners that book for personal use.


----------



## paxsarah

dgalati said:


> The GC's being eliminated during busy times should help more owners booking for personal use then it hurts.


Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.



I don't know what the other side of the conversation is.  Well, I probably do.  He only knows one thing but he says it a lot.

As one who offers rentals, this latest from Wyndham doesn't bother me at all.  Most of my reservations are made inside the two month discount/upgrade window and if these resorts are so busy that occupancy by non-owners must be restricted, there isn't going to be anything available for me two months out.

If the resorts are not that busy, Wyndham will have shot itself in the foot because there will be a lot of empty units.

Edit:  I should add that I have no advantage over the smaller owner up to two months before check-in.  We can both book at full price either thirteen or ten months months before check-in.  I have a price advantage inside two months but that still doesn't take away anything from him.  If I book it before he does, it's not available for him.  If he books it before I do, it's not available for me. 

For the most part, I'm booking reservations that no one wanted or reservations that fall out of the bottom because of cancellations or upgrades.  And by rule, I can only book two reservations for the same time period -- one in my wife's name, one in mine.  Totally different than wiping out an entire resort the first day a reservation can be made.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.


The question Wyndham is tring to solve is availability during high demand seasons or times. Eliminating GC's will free up availability for owner's to use personally.  If I needed a reservation with GC's during restricted times I would have to schedule a different resort or at another time. Its called taking one for the team. Wyndham is tring to help the majority of owners to book for their personal use. Maybe Wyndham really cares?


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> Wyndham is tring to help the majority of owners to book for their personal use. Maybe Wyndham really cares?


I book ONLY for personal use.  To stay myself or, most recently, to rent.  I never rented out units until just recently as I have ended up with too many points being left from trips having been cancelled due to COVID.  I've gotten to know a new group of people who love to travel but are on a limited budget.  It pleases me to get someone a really good deal at a really nice resort while I cover my MF's.  Whether I stay or help someone else travel, the booking is for my personal use.   Like Chapjim, I'm generally getting deals available inside the discount period at resorts that are not on the blackout list.  I did, however, test the blackout stuff this morning by booking a blackout list resort and assigning a GC......for my sister.  I can only hope that, if cancellation occurs, it happens sooner rather than later.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> I book ONLY for personal use.  To stay myself or, most recently, to rent.  I never rented out units until just recently as I have ended up with too many points being left from trips having been cancelled due to COVID.  I've gotten to know a new group of people who love to travel but are on a limited budget.  It pleases me to get someone a really good deal at a really nice resort while I cover my MF's.  Whether I stay or help someone else travel, the booking is for my personal use.   Like Chapjim, I'm generally getting deals available inside the discount period at resorts that are not on the blackout list.  I did, however, test the blackout stuff this morning by booking a blackout list resort and assigning a GC......for my sister.  I can only hope that, if cancellation occurs, it happens sooner rather than later.


Are you using resale points with  the VIP discounts and upgrades?


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> Are you using resale points with  the VIP discounts and upgrades?


14% of my total points are resale.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Edit:  I should add that I have no advantage over the smaller owner up to two months before check-in.  We can both book at full price either thirteen or ten months months before check-in.  I have a price advantage inside two months but that still doesn't take away anything from him.  If I book it before he does, it's not available for him.  If he books it before I do, it's not available for him.
> 
> For the most part, I'm booking reservations that no one wanted or reservations that fall out of the bottom because of cancellations or upgrades.  And by rule, I can only book two reservations for the same time period -- one in my wife's name, one in mine.  Totally different than wiping out an entire resort the first day a reservation can be made.


I remember the mega renters justifying their abuse this same way. Its the rentals that Wyndham is trying to limit which will help owners that are looking to book for personal use.


----------



## paxsarah

dgalati said:


> Its the rentals that Wyndham is trying to limit which will help [certain] owners [while inconveniencing others] that are looking to book for personal use.



Fixed it.


----------



## ladawgfan

Richelle said:


> When they did this last year, wasn't it a blanket policy at all resorts at all times, instead of a handful of resorts over major holidays?  I think this time, the number of people complaining would be lower than it was last year.  I could be wrong, but I think it's less likely they will backtrack this time.



Does anyone have access to the guest limitation policy they had last year? I must not have been affected by it because I don't remember the details. Also how long did it take them to reverse the policy change and what was done that convinced them to eliminate it?


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> Fixed it.


When cancel and re book was eliminated it also helped certain owners but inconvenienced others. The main purpose of the elimination of cancel and re book was the abuse by owners renting reservations. It also helped availability for owners booking for personal use.


----------



## dioxide45

Sandi Bo said:


> *Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation. Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?


According to a poster on DISBoards, they had a reservation where a single day overlapped the blocked out dates and their reservation was cancelled. They had booked through VRBO.


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> Earlier I told Richelle I'd post a list of all the questions/concerns/clarifications requested that I (as well as reviewing other comments here on TUG) had and she had someone she would try to run it by. Thanks for the reminder to get this done.  Here's my list for you @Richelle   (my questions, tried to capture other comments in this thread but stopped when things seemed to get too 'out there' for this topic):
> 
> *Please define 'subject to cancelation'.
> - Will 100% of all reservations at the list resorts/dates be canceled for the remainder of year when a guest confirmation is added or will some reservations be honored?
> -  Will the cancelation happen immediately when the guest confirmation is added, is it automatic, or is it a manual process?
> -  If it doesn't happen immediately, is the reservation 'safe' or is it subject to cancelation up until the day of checkin?
> *Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation.  Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?
> *Are you making one-off exceptions to this policy? If so, please advise what kind of rules/exceptions we can expect to be followed and whom we should call for an exception? If and exception is granted, how will that be notated on the reservation?
> * What if I have an existing reservation not in the blackout period, add a guest, and later add a night that then causes the entire reservation to extend into the blackout period. Does it now become 'subject to cancellation'?
> * How does Travel and Leasure fit in? They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches
> 
> * General comments.
> - Extremely poor implementation. Announce 4 hours before it went into effect. Some lead time would have been appreciated.  Will this continue to 2022? We need to know asap as people do plan in advance and this affects our planning (and for sure messed up some people in 2021)
> - Not everyone got the email. The information is buried on the website. More visibility was needed. Communication failure, big time.
> - Message about blackouts and cancellations is now on EVERY confirmation, owner or guest, for a resort that has some blackout dates. What a shame to alarm someone with an unaffected reservation of policy that does not affect them.
> - I like the idea it will encourage use of other resorts and/or lower volume dates.
> - Encouraged it appears Extra Holidays is following the same rules. Super important for all of us to see that commitment from Wyndham.
> - Would be interesting to hear the why's of what resorts we picked, and why some many of us expected to be included were not
> - Many owners have expressed and interest in some type of friends and family list. Is Wyndham considering anything in that area. Would have alleviated some of the major adverse affects for owners using their timeshare for friends and family.  (Devil's advocate though, why is allowing friends and family okay but not renters - neither are paying maintenance fees or have skin in the game (purchase points/long-term commitment)
> - Noting concerns by some that Wyndham needs to respect an owners RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. What say did the legal team have on this?
> - It's been mentioned it would be nice if the system would alert us when booking or when a guest confirmation, the reservation may be canceled. Would be great if the system wouldn't let us add a guest confirmation and we could choose whether or not we want to cancel
> - Most importantly - some advanced notice and transparency would have been greatly appreciated
> 
> If you can get some answers, especially to how it's going to be implemented aspects, they will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you!


Sorry for the delay.  I did not get a notification you tagged me, but I should have checked sooner.  

I'm going to add the question "Will other resorts be added later?"  Meaning, can they decide tomorrow to add Great smokies to the Fourth of July blackout list?  None of my reservations were affected, but I added guest certificates to my Great smokies reservations over Fouth just in case.   Waterparks are especially popular over summer break, so I am surprised that one didn't make the list.  I will NOT be suggesting they do add it to the list.

I'm also going to add "What factors did you consider when deciding which resorts to add to the list?"

I haven't read past this thread, so others may have already suggested those questions.  I'll collect any others I find.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dioxide45 said:


> According to a poster on DISBoards, they had a reservation where a single day overlapped the blocked out dates and their reservation was cancelled. They had booked through VRBO.


Did the DISBoard poster say who cancelled the reservation?
-- VRBO?
-- The owner?
-- Wyndham when the owner added the GC?

Personally, not taking any chances, I would assume any overlap would cause the reservation to be cancelled. Until we hear otherwise.


----------



## bendadin

dlehrhart said:


> Does anyone have access to the guest limitation policy they had last year? I must not have been affected by it because I don't remember the details. Also how long did it take them to reverse the policy change and what was done that convinced them to eliminate it?



I think that the resorts opened back up the first week of June with no GC allowed. That was rescinded by the third week of June.


----------



## ladawgfan

dgalati said:


> When cancel and re book was eliminated it also helped certain owners but inconvenienced others. The main purpose of the elimination of cancel and re book was the abuse by owners renting reservations. It also helped availability for owners booking for personal use.





bendadin said:


> I think that the resorts opened back up the first week of June with no GC allowed. That was rescinded by the third week of June.



Thanks, that makes more sense to me. I didn't get the connection between this year's guest reservation restriction & cancel & rebook from last year, because others had talked about last year's change being rescinded.


----------



## Braindead

dlehrhart said:


> I didn't get the connection between this year's guest reservation restriction & cancel & rebook from last year, because others had talked about last year's change being rescinded.


Last year limiting GCs had nothing to do with cancel-rebook, cancel-rebook change was about 3 years ago. Cancel-rebook is still possible but just not as easy as it ounce was


----------



## VacayKat

dgalati said:


> I remember the mega renters justifying their abuse this same way. Its the rentals that Wyndham is trying to limit which will help owners that are looking to book for personal use.


Here’s the thing.... Wyndham has absolutely no qualms about trying to sell you more points than you have vacation for, and those points are owned by you. Wyndham does not represent that they are against renting out extra points, and in fact suggest you do. So if you own the points and you book the room fair and square, whose business is it who stays in the room? Folks who reserve and rent a stay are no more cheating the system than someone who reserves it and shows up themselves. And hell, getting a VIP discount less than 60 days out is not going to prevent mom and pop from booking their stay at the 10 month mark because they aren't VIP. Anyone complaining they don't get the VIP discount and someone else does (remember they shelled out the cash for it) should either knock it off or pay to upgrade. I, for one, will never feel bad about renting out a stay here and there to cover some of the fantastically huge maintenance fees for the amount of points we own - especially since Wyndham LITERALLY told us to do it.
I’ll actually double down on this and cite the plethora of discounts available to most owners that basically make everyone’s ownership VIP for a lot of resorts... at this time I count 45 resorts with discounted points on bookings. For those of us who spent the cash - and a lot of it- for VIP, saying renting here and there is not good for those with fewer points because we take away their opportunity to vacation would only be true if the inventory didn't exist in the first place and Wyndham sold everyone points that weren’t linked to real inventory.


----------



## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> Here’s the thing.... Wyndham has absolutely no qualms about trying to sell you more points than you have vacation for, and those points are owned by you. Wyndham does not represent that they are against renting out extra points, and in fact suggest you do. So if you own the points and you book the room fair and square, whose business is it who stays in the room? Folks who reserve and rent a stay are no more cheating the system than someone who reserves it and shows up themselves. And hell, getting a VIP discount less than 60 days out is not going to prevent mom and pop from booking their stay at the 10 month mark because they aren't VIP. Anyone complaining they don't get the VIP discount and someone else does (remember they shelled out the cash for it) should either knock it off or pay to upgrade. I, for one, will never feel bad about renting out a stay here and there to cover some of the fantastically huge maintenance fees for the amount of points we own - especially since Wyndham LITERALLY told us to do it.


Like I said earlier the mega-renter would justify their abuse of the system and cancel re book the same way. Sales also sold cancel and re book as a benefit.  If you believe half of what sales told you thats half to much. As a non VIP I find last minute deals discouted 40% all the time. If you are flexible with travel needs you don't need to be a VIP to recieve the discounts.


----------



## TheHolleys87

Sandi Bo said:


> Did the DISBoard poster say who cancelled the reservation?
> -- VRBO?
> -- The owner?
> -- Wyndham when the owner added the GC?
> 
> Personally, not taking any chances, I would assume any overlap would cause the reservation to be cancelled. Until we hear otherwise.


I’m familiar with that thread too. It isn’t specified but sounds like Wyndham canceled the reservation. The poster had booked through Vacation Strategy, who offered them some alternatives but ultimately refunded their money.


----------



## am1

Nothing wrong with owners who rent.  What is wrong is Wyndham limiting reservations to only owners.  Everyone pays the monthly fees.  Just because one is better at getting top reservations should not be held against them.  Everyone has the opportunity to learn how.


----------



## Eric B

am1 said:


> Nothing wrong with owners who rent.  What is wrong is Wyndham limiting reservations to only owners.  Everyone pays the monthly fees.  Just because one is better at getting top reservations should not be held against them.  Everyone has the opportunity to learn how.



Completely agree with that.  It does annoy me that they seem to be trying to change the ground rules for what they've sold people over the years, but I'll get over it.  I have rented out some stays, but typically not at peak demand resorts/dates, so this current thing doesn't bother me all that much.

The approach some other resort systems have taken of only allowing rentals of the particular resort, week, and unit type you own is one that makes a lot of sense to me.  That's not what Wyndham sold, though; while it isn't explicitly listed as a right of ownership, it isn't banned either and Wyndham sales touted that ability in the sales process.  The trouble is that they didn't address it directly in the underlying documents and have aggregated additional resorts that had their own systems and policies for rental of owned weeks, so they seem to be trying to herd cats on how things work for folks that occasionally rent their usages.  IMHO, it would be a much better approach if they actually tried to compete with the renters (including the megarenters that bother a certain poster so much) by reducing the excessive brokerage fee they charge for extra holidays rentals.


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> Completely agree with that.  It does annoy me that they seem to be trying to change the ground rules for what they've sold people over the years, but I'll get over it.  I have rented out some stays, but typically not at peak demand resorts/dates, so this current thing doesn't bother me all that much.
> 
> IMHO, it would be a much better approach if they actually tried to compete with the renters (including the megarenters that bother a certain poster so much) by reducing the excessive brokerage fee they charge for extra holidays rentals.


LOL! Add another low cost supplier into the mix to lower rental prices. Sounds like you are a agent of Wyndham with that kind of math. On a more serious note mega-renters don't bother me at all it is the opposite. I have traveled for less then paying maintenance fees renting from them. Mega renters and owners that were sold more points to rent and cover maintenance fees are my friends.  Every sales meeting I sit in I ask why buy if you can rent for less?    Some in sales are dumbfounded and give up while others try to convice that Wyndham math does add up. The real money is buying and selling the deeds. Skimming points along the way is the most cost effective but RCI points has also been very good to me. I also say thanks to Wyndham for using half truths and math that never adds up. This makes the cheap rentals and free upgrades possible.


----------



## Mr. Vker

My mother in law is a top tier member of Wyndam (I think she calls it VIP). I'm not sure as we are MVC members. She booked a long weekend (labor day) for my daughter-her granddaughter. This email was delivered today.  Very frustrating-glad they hadn't booked travel. 



> Dear XXX Family,
> 
> We recently shared that we are working to prioritize owner reservations to ensure they have the greatest opportunity to vacation, which means we are limiting non-owner reservations at select resorts for peak holiday travel dates. Visit our website for more information on prioritizing owner reservations.
> 
> Unfortunately, since the owner who booked your reservation added your guest confirmation after March 15, 2021, it will be canceled. The reservation details include:
> 
> *Confirmation Number: XXXXX
> 
> Destination: Club Wyndham Panama City Beach*
> 
> Your upcoming reservation will be canceled automatically — you do not need to take any action — and the points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest certificate(s) will be returned to the account within 5-7 business days.
> 
> We apologize for the inconvenience and hope you’ll consider visiting one of the other 200+ resorts that are accepting guest reservations during peak holiday travel dates.
> 
> Thank you for your interest in vacationing with Club Wyndham. We hope to see you on vacation soon.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Club Wyndham Owner Service
Click to expand...


----------



## Richelle

Mr. Vker said:


> My mother in law is a top tier member of Wyndam (I think she calls it VIP). I'm not sure as we are MVC members. She booked a long weekend (labor day) for my daughter-her granddaughter. This email was delivered today.  Very frustrating-glad they hadn't booked travel.


VIP is the program.  The levels are Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Founders.

With that said, ask your mother-in-law to call Wyndham.  They are assisting owners.  I cannot promise anything,, and don't have anything official, but I saw a couple of people on Facebook who said they got exceptions for family.


----------



## Mr. Vker

Richelle said:


> VIP is the program.  The levels are Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Founders.
> 
> With that said, ask your mother-in-law to call Wyndham.  They are assisting owners.  I cannot promise anything,, and don't have anything official, but I saw a couple of people on Facebook who said they got exceptions for family.



THANKS! Will do...she's platinum I just asked. They are calling now. They actually have the same address and everything. My MIL is 83 and just can't travel now-or she'd be going!


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> Skimming points along the way is the most cost effective but RCI points has also been very good to me.



Glad to see you finally acknowledging the actual skimming loophole you’ve been using all along but conveniently never choose to call out - while repeatedly attempting to label VIP owners using resale points with VIP benefits as a loophole despite the fact that it isn’t an actual loophole. Seems a bit disingenuous to me, but perhaps I’m alone in this assessment? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Glad to see you finally acknowledging the actual skimming loophole you’ve been using all along but conveniently never choose to call out - while repeatedly attempting to label VIP owners using resale points with VIP benefits as a loophole despite the fact that it isn’t an actual loophole. Seems a bit disingenuous to me, but perhaps I’m alone in this assessment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Nope.


----------



## Richelle

HitchHiker71 said:


> Glad to see you finally acknowledging the actual skimming loophole you’ve been using all along but conveniently never choose to call out - while repeatedly attempting to label VIP owners using resale points with VIP benefits as a loophole despite the fact that it isn’t an actual loophole. Seems a bit disingenuous to me, but perhaps I’m alone in this assessment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would probably say "less than transparent", but no, you're not alone.  lol


----------



## Mr. Vker

Richelle said:


> VIP is the program.  The levels are Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Founders.
> 
> With that said, ask your mother-in-law to call Wyndham.  They are assisting owners.  I cannot promise anything,, and don't have anything official, but I saw a couple of people on Facebook who said they got exceptions for family.



They did not budge. Reservation canceled.


----------



## Richelle

Mr. Vker said:


> THANKS! Will do...she's platinum I just asked. They are calling now. They actually have the same address and everything. My MIL is 83 and just can't travel now-or she'd be going!




Have you considered getting your name added to the account so you can put the reservations under your name?  It would mean you would be responsible for the maintenance fees if your MIL cannot pay them, but if you plan on taking it over anyway, now might be a good time.  Wyndham has a program that used to be called Tribute.  That was meant for owners looking to transfer their ownership to a family member.  It was free to them.  They may assist with adding your name instead of a complete transfer since she can still travel occasionally, just not as much to utilize all her ownership.  The program is now part of Wyndham Certified exit.  If they cannot help you, LT transfers are cheap and they can help.  You would need to pay $299 to Wyndham, plus closing costs which include deed recording.  They would only need to add your name to your deed along with your MIL.  I would suggest your wife's be on it too.  It would give you an extra owner name you can book under.  She would have to be present at check-in to check into that second unit.  If she travels with you, that won't be a big deal.


----------



## Richelle

Mr. Vker said:


> They did not budge. Reservation canceled.


Did they offer any kind of assistance?  I was told they were offering assistance but they didn't say what kind of assistance.  For all I know, they are offering assistance with finding other places they can go.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Glad to see you finally acknowledging the actual skimming loophole you’ve been using all along but conveniently never choose to call out - while repeatedly attempting to label VIP owners using resale points with VIP benefits as a loophole despite the fact that it isn’t an actual loophole. Seems a bit disingenuous to me, but perhaps I’m alone in this assessment?
> 
> 
> Richelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would probably say "less than transparent", but no, you're not alone.  lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The so called loophole was closed.  I was considered a trader of deeds no different then what Wyndham does when they buy third party or even taking back free inventory with Ovations.. I bought up to 1 million points a year, skimmed the points then sold the deeds( more often gave away) without current use year points. Some people buy up to VIP, some make use of the PIC program and then there are a few that bottom feed and make use of the discounts and free upgrades for cheap rentals. I never rented a point, used all my points for personal travel, preferred not to be burdened with maintenance fees and was able to travel for close to free with this strategy. I'm back as a owner and a new strategy for use. I also have bought into Worldmark and find it to be a great fit with bonus time cheaper then paying maintenance fees without adding a HK fee. So far so good until TNFC.


----------



## Mr. Vker

Richelle said:


> Did they offer any kind of assistance?  I was told they were offering assistance but they didn't say what kind of assistance.  For all I know, they are offering assistance with finding other places they can go.


They offered the weekend before and after. My son in law has very limited PTO. That's why they wanted Labor Day. Moving is not a good option. They will look for other things.


----------



## Richelle

Mr. Vker said:


> They offered the weekend before and after. My son in law has very limited PTO. That's why they wanted Labor Day. Moving is not a good option. They will look for other things.


I'm sorry they couldn't give you what they wanted.  I assume you were not traveling with your daughter and son-in-law?  I ask because I am wondering if it makes a difference if the owner is traveling with them, and they booked a separate room for someone else.


----------



## Mr. Vker

Richelle said:


> I'm sorry they couldn't give you what they wanted.  I assume you were not traveling with your daughter and son-in-law?  I ask because I am wondering if it makes a difference if the owner is traveling with them, and they booked a separate room for someone else.



Correct-we are watching their three kids.  Their first getaway since their youngest was born.


----------



## dgalati

am1 said:


> Nothing wrong with owners who rent.  What is wrong is Wyndham limiting reservations to only owners.  Everyone pays the monthly fees.  Just because one is better at getting top reservations should not be held against them.  Everyone has the opportunity to learn how.





am1 said:


> Nothing wrong with owners who rent.  What is wrong is Wyndham limiting reservations to only owners.  Everyone pays the monthly fees.  Just because one is better at getting top reservations should not be held against them.  Everyone has the opportunity to learn how.


I wonder if a reservation would be canceled if a owner rented to another Wyndham owner?


----------



## Jan M.

dgalati said:


> I wonder if a reservation would be canceled if a owner rented to another Wyndham owner?



I'd guess that yes it would be cancelled. The system would see that a guest confirmation was added and trigger the cancellation. Who the guest is wouldn't factor in.


----------



## ladawgfan

Has anyone received a definitive answer whether a guest reservation that begins outside of a peak period but ends within a peak period will be cancelled? For example 6/19-6/26. (The first day of the Independence Day period is 6/25) Or does an Independence Day peak period reservation only apply to reservations beginning between 6/25 & 7/9. Similarly, would a 5/22/21-5/29 guest reservation be cancelled ?


----------



## dioxide45

dlehrhart said:


> Has anyone received a definitive answer whether a guest reservation that begins outside of a peak period but ends within a peak period will be cancelled? For example 6/19-6/26. (The first day of the Independence Day period is 6/25) Or does an Independence Day peak period reservation only apply to reservations beginning between 6/25 & 7/9. Similarly, would a 5/22/21-5/29 guest reservation be cancelled ?


See post #153


----------



## ladawgfan

I’m still trying to find out whether a guest reservation that ends on the first day of a peak period is subject to cancellation. For example, will a guest reservation from 6/18 to 6/25 be cancelled? 6/25 is the first day of the Independence Day peak period. Is the checkout date of 6/25 for the guest reservation considered an overlap or is the last day of the guest reservation period 6/24.


----------



## Jan M.

dlehrhart said:


> I’m still trying to find out whether a guest reservation that ends on the first day of a peak period is subject to cancellation. For example, will a guest reservation from 6/18 to 6/25 be cancelled? 6/25 is the first day of the Independence Day peak period. Is the checkout date of 6/25 for the guest reservation considered an overlap or is the last day of the guest reservation period 6/24.



I don't believe it would be cancelled because that's the day of check out after the final night of the stay, not a night the guest would be staying.


----------



## ladawgfan

If anyone actually encounters this situation over the Memorial Day or Independence Day peak period (with a guest reservation check-out of 5/28 or 6/24) please post what Wyndham actually does. I've thought about burning a guest reservation to test it out but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure so I don't have to waste one.


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> Earlier I told Richelle I'd post a list of all the questions/concerns/clarifications requested that I (as well as reviewing other comments here on TUG) had and she had someone she would try to run it by. Thanks for the reminder to get this done.  Here's my list for you @Richelle   (my questions, tried to capture other comments in this thread but stopped when things seemed to get too 'out there' for this topic):
> 
> *Please define 'subject to cancelation'.
> - Will 100% of all reservations at the list resorts/dates be canceled for the remainder of year when a guest confirmation is added or will some reservations be honored?
> -  Will the cancelation happen immediately when the guest confirmation is added, is it automatic, or is it a manual process?
> -  If it doesn't happen immediately, is the reservation 'safe' or is it subject to cancelation up until the day of checkin?
> *Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation.  Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?
> *Are you making one-off exceptions to this policy? If so, please advise what kind of rules/exceptions we can expect to be followed and whom we should call for an exception? If and exception is granted, how will that be notated on the reservation?
> * What if I have an existing reservation not in the blackout period, add a guest, and later add a night that then causes the entire reservation to extend into the blackout period. Does it now become 'subject to cancellation'?
> * How does Travel and Leasure fit in? They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches
> 
> Thank you!



Sorry for the delay.  

1. What factors did you consider when deciding which resorts to add to the list?

There were three main factors that helped them decide what resorts should be on the list.  These are in no particular order.  They determined which resorts had a high number of guest certificate reservations.  They determined which resorts were in demand, by looking at the searches to see what resorts people searched for availability the most.  Then they looked at occupancy levels.  He could not tell me what weight each factor had because he did not know, but those are the factors they considered

2. Please define 'subject to cancelation'.

By using the words “subject to cancelation” they are allowing themselves room to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. 

3. Will other resorts be added later?

There are no plans to, but it has not been ruled out.  They removed Skyline.  If they can remove one, it is safe to say they can add one.  He said there were no meetings or anything to talk about adding anything to the list.  To be safe though, I would suggest you assume it could be.  If your reservation falls on a major holiday, just add the GC.

4. Will 100% of all reservations at the list resorts/dates be canceled for the remainder of the year when a guest confirmation is added, or will some reservations be honored?

Only the resorts in the list, for the dates specified, are subject to cancellation.  Exceptions are made on a case-by-case basis.  There are no plans to lift the policy.  Reservations with guest certificates that were booked prior to March 15th will still be honored.

5. Will the cancelation happen immediately when the guest confirmation is added, is it automatic, or is it a manual process?

This one he could not speak to because it is not in his wheelhouse.  He was not sure he would be able to share it if he did.  I did not push it.  If I were to hazard a guess, I would say it is automatic.  They probably gave it 48 hours, so the owner could call and plead their case before the reservation was lost.

6. If it does not happen immediately, is the reservation 'safe' or is it subject to cancelation up until the day of check in?

No, it is not safe.  Even if the system does not catch it, the resort is supposed to, and they are supposed to have the owner call the call center.  I did ask, if someone added the GC right before the owner checked in, what would happen.  He said the resorts are supposed to catch it and direct the owner to call the call center.

7. Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation.  Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?

Originally, it was only if your check-in date fell within the blackout dates, it was subject to cancellation.  People figured that out and started booking reservations one day before the blackout period.  Now the policy is if any part of the reservation falls in that blackout period, it will be subject to cancellation.  

8. Are you making one-off exceptions to this policy? If so, please advise what kind of rules/exceptions we can expect to be followed and whom we should call for an exception? If an exception is granted, how will that be notated on the reservation?

Rentals are a hard no on the exceptions (his words).  Aside from that, it depends on the circumstances.  One example he gave is if they spent $10,000 on airfare to fly 10 members of his family to Hawaii.  I know a woman who was sending her daughter and SIL on vacation and it got canceled.  She plead her case, but they did not make an exception.  I saw another person who was doing a family vacation get an exception.  I suspect that reservations where the owner is traveling with them, are more likely to get exceptions than anything else.  He was not able to provide more details because he’s not part of the team that makes those decisions.  I assume they have a way of marking the reservation, otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to do a case-by-case basis.  I would suggest calling the main number, and if you don't get any help, ask to speak to Owner Care.  

9. What if I have an existing reservation not in the blackout period, add a guest, and later add a night that then causes the entire reservation to extend into the blackout period. Does it now become 'subject to cancellation'?

If the extra night added falls into the blackout period, it will be subject to cancellation.  So triple-check the dates before adding a day.

10. How does Travel and Leisure fit in? They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches

I have only done a few searches, but none of the Club Wyndham resorts I searched for showed up in the searches for those dates.

11.          Will this continue to 2022?

This has not been ruled out.  Given how many people seem to love the idea, I would say assume it will happen again next year.


12. (I asked this during the meeting.)  Why the last-minute notice?

They had a set date that they needed to put this in place, but there were a lot of details they had to work through before they could notify the owner.  Unfortunately, they did not get the details worked out in enough time to give any advance notice to the owner.


----------



## VAlegacy

I got an exception today.  I gifted 4 nights to a friend of ours at BC June 2-6th.  I incorrectly assumed June 2nd was the ending date, just like a reservation.  
To be honest, the lady seemed like she didn't care that much.  She bluntly told me she and everyone else in her office was sick of having to do this, and was frustrated Wyndham couldn't manually block out GC for these dates.
From what I understand the process is the person who answers the call decides whether to forward the exception on to their supervisor.  If the supervisor approves, it gets submitted.  She told me if you received an email of the cancellation, it's probably too late.
She suggested booking, then calling for an exception shortly thereafter.
YMMV


----------



## Sandi Bo

VAlegacy said:


> I got an exception today.  I gifted 4 nights to a friend of ours at BC June 2-6th.  I incorrectly assumed June 2nd was the ending date, just like a reservation.
> To be honest, the lady seemed like she didn't care that much.  She bluntly told me she and everyone else in her office was sick of having to do this, and was frustrated Wyndham couldn't manually block out GC for these dates.
> From what I understand the process is the person who answers the call decides whether to forward the exception on to their supervisor.  If the supervisor approves, it gets submitted.  She told me if you received an email of the cancellation, it's probably too late.
> She suggested booking, then calling for an exception shortly thereafter.
> YMMV


Thanks for posting. I assumed a June 2 checkin was okay.  Glad you were able to get the exception and appreciate you posting your experience.


----------



## FamilyValue

Richelle said:


> There was a line in parentheses at the end of what you were quoting.
> 
> Any guest reservations made after March 15, 2021, at the resorts listed below during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after March 15)
> 
> Hopefully it answers your question. It goes on to say:
> 
> If you book a guest reservation after March 15, you’ll be notified of the reservation cancellation via email. All points, housekeeping credits, reservations transactions, and guest confirmations will be returned within 5-7 business days of the cancellation.
> 
> 
> I did not get the email, so maybe the wording is different on it. I’m getting this from the announcement on the webpage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wyndham is getting smart in this move where they prevent owners renting their points out to their family and friends.  Wyndham lists certain 'peak dates' at certain resorts but we know they are not accurate.  We try to book for our church friends and cannot find anything and we are in platinum level.  It seems that they try to block 'megarenters' but isn't Wynhdam who sells those points?  I guess Wyndham does not like to be outsmart.  We've been very favor with Wyndham but now have 2nd thought.


----------



## paxsarah

FamilyValue said:


> cannot find anything


That’s a totally different issue. Availability is tight. A lot of people moved points from 2020 to 2021. If you can’t find anything, it’s because it’s booked.


----------



## dgalati

FamilyValue said:


> Wyndham is getting smart in this move where they prevent owners renting their points out to their family and friends.  Wyndham lists certain 'peak dates' at certain resorts but we know they are not accurate.  We try to book for our church friends and cannot find anything and we are in platinum level.  It seems that they try to block 'megarenters' but isn't Wynhdam who sells those points?  I guess Wyndham does not like to be outsmart.  We've been very favor with Wyndham but now have 2nd thought.


Now your seeing the big picture.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> That’s a totally different issue. Availability is tight. A lot of people moved points from 2020 to 2021. If you can’t find anything, it’s because it’s booked.


Im sure they can find it on extra holidays or expedia.  Wyndham rents the inventory they own instead of making it available for owners to book reservations.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Im sure they can find it on extra holidays or expedia.  Wyndham rents the inventory they own instead of making it available for owners to book reservations.


I did not see anything on Extra Holiday, Travelocity, or booking.com for the Memorial Day weekend at Bonnet Creek.  I thought Wyndham indicated they would honor the block, and it looks to me like they did. Did you (or anyone else) find otherwise? Looking at extraholidays now, they've also blocked the 4th of July dates, Thanksgiving, and end of year, at Bonnet Creek (I have not checked all resorts). (Ironically, as much as most of us don't think turning our rooms over to Extra Holiday's is a good idea anyways, those that do are getting hurt by this, too). 


FamilyValue said:


> Wyndham is getting smart in this move where they prevent owners renting their points out to their family and friends.  Wyndham lists certain 'peak dates' at certain resorts but we know they are not accurate.  We try to book for our church friends and cannot find anything and we are in platinum level.  It seems that they try to block 'megarenters' but isn't Wynhdam who sells those points?  I guess Wyndham does not like to be outsmart.  We've been very favor with Wyndham but now have 2nd thought.


I really do think a lot of this is a supply and demand thing. People are ready to travel, things are booking more quickly than ever right now. People want to travel and have the points to do so. If you are looking for discounted rooms, the pickings are slim. Now, more than ever, people need to plan.  We have 2 big vacations coming up. Daytona Beach in August that we booked in January. Glacier Canyon in September, we booked that in December. (3 and 4 br units).  What are you trying to book and not able to find?


----------



## 9969hi

I noticed today several rentals show up on Redweek for the 4th of July weekend at Bonnet Creek as something changed ,how can these people getting a guest certificate.?


----------



## VacayKat

9969hi said:


> I noticed today several rentals show up on Redweek for the 4th of July weekend at Bonnet Creek as something changed ,how can these people getting a guest certificate.?


Not sure if this is the case, but it doesn't cancel your booking until you add the guest cert- and you don't do that until you've rented it. Basically you can try to rent anything you want, Wyndham isn't monitoring pre-guest cert bookings. It's once you do go to try to add a guest that problems show up. [was just looking at bonnet creek rules yesterday, it's still a no-go] SO- word to the wise, don't book that rental!


----------



## 55plus

Was curious so went on Extra Holidays and found a couple rentals at Wyndham Cypress Palms in Orlando for over the 4th of July. Is this resort exempt or doesn't the policy apply to Wyndham.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> Was curious so went on Extra Holidays and found a couple rentals at Wyndham Cypress Palms in Orlando for over the 4th of July. Is this resort exempt or doesn't the policy apply to Wyndham.



It only applies to select resorts per the links shared within this thread:









						Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
					

Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				




Cypress Palms is _not _on the list.


----------



## jules54

Planning is priority one when working with Wyndham Points. If more than 60 days out it doesn’t matter if no discounts are involved for booking. Less than 60 days with discount means some type of VIP ownership. I would think any owners who have that much money involved would be learning everything they can about the booking and inventory process. The way around the GC cancellation is owner or owners be onsite to check guest in. I have 6 names on my account so if was worth the drive or airfare for someone to go to check renters in during a block out GC period that is what I would do. I’m sure one of my kids would love a free round trip plane ticket. Yep that right a loophole lol.


----------



## tschwa2

jules54 said:


> Planning is priority one when working with Wyndham Points. If more than 60 days out it doesn’t matter if no discounts are involved for booking. Less than 60 days with discount means some type of VIP ownership. I would think any owners who have that much money involved would be learning everything they can about the booking and inventory process. The way around the GC cancellation is owner or owners be onsite to check guest in. I have 6 names on my account so if was worth the drive or airfare for someone to go to check renters in during a block out GC period that is what I would do. I’m sure one of my kids would love a free round trip plane ticket. Yep that right a loophole lol.


except not everyone is going to want to shell out money for a rental that isn't in their name even up to check in day.  Yes you might get someone who is a wyndham owner and realizes this is the only way to get a rental for a holiday period but others will assume it's a scam.  I couldn't imagine going to any fly to or far drive to location after paying thousands and just hoping the owner will show up to check me in.


----------



## jules54

tschwa2 said:


> except not everyone is going to want to shell out money for a rental that isn't in their name even up to check in day.  Yes you might get someone who is a wyndham owner and realizes this is the only way to get a rental for a holiday period but others will assume it's a scam.  I couldn't imagine going to any fly to or far drive to location after paying thousands and just hoping the owner will show up to check me in.



Im certain with over 13,000 posts you have a ton of experience. You must also know people(renters) will do a lot of unexpected things if proof can be had. I only meant this could wrk for me not necessarily others.


----------



## bnoble

jules54 said:


> I have 6 names on my account so if was worth the drive or airfare for someone to go to check renters in during a block out GC period that is what I would do.


There would have to be a pretty good margin for this to make sense---especially because there would need to be a _different_ name (and hence owner buying airfare) checking in each of those units. I mean, maybe, but this seems so unlikely that it is not worth worrying about.


----------



## jules54

FYI I have found I can make more than 1 reservation under the same name for the same dates at many resorts. I get the change name alert if it won’t wrk.


----------



## Sandi Bo

jules54 said:


> FYI I have found I can make more than 1 reservation under the same name for the same dates at many resorts. I get the change name alert if it won’t wrk.


I think the unwritten rule is they won't cancel if there are only 2. But I would never chance it. If I have a lot going on I'll call a VC and have them double check that they don't see any flags (they see flags, we don't). I chalk up allowing 2 to the very poorly written software, I figure if they aren't giving us flags, they decided to give us some leeway.  Seems like a lot of explaining to do for a rental, especially if it's not someone you know. Oh by the way, I'm checking you in and oh by the way there are 2 rooms in my name, please tell them you are in room 123. And leaving the room in your name. And some resorts don't require a credit card deposit if you are an owner.  I'm not saying what you are suggesting won't work, but I for one am looking forward to a quiet Christmas, while hoping this is a 2021 thing and things are back to normal next year.


----------



## jerrybev

How was the notification letter sent?  Postal service or by email?  We did not receive it and I wonder why
thankyou
jerrybev
plantinum


----------



## Jan M.

jerrybev said:


> How was the notification letter sent?  Postal service or by email?  We did not receive it and I wonder why
> thankyou
> jerrybev
> plantinum



The email about the black out dates went out only a few hours before the deadline to add a guest.  If owners were at work, out for the evening, not someone who has to constantly be checking their phone, etc. they would have missed the extremely short window to add a guest to a reservation.

For some reason some of us don't get every email that Wyndham sends. A friend of mine usually forwards any emails she gets from Wyndham because I sometimes don't get them. This was one time I not only got the email but I just happened to check my email shortly after it came and actually read it. I didn't have any reservations nor plans to make any reservations for the resorts or times on the list. I did feel bad for the owners who did and was glad to hear that Owner Care has been making exceptions on a case by case basis.

At the time I was truly appalled at what seemed a very underhanded and poorly considered thing to do. Since then I've learned of a situation that I believe explains why it was done that way. It made me rethink all but one part of my earlier criticism. If I'm correct about the reason then I'll still stand by saying that whoever was responsible for compiling the list of resorts and dates could and should have done a much better job with it.


----------



## Eric B

Newest email on the subject with a refinement that allows use of guest certificates twice per year in the Owner Priority periods. 

See also https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/owner-guide/resources/reservations/owner-priority-reservations?utm_source=member-update_20210618&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=cw_geoff&utm_content=<strong>







The summer season is in full swing.





Dear XXXXX Family,With the summer season in full swing, our resort teams are ready to welcome you back for memorable and fun-filled experiences. Whether it’s a relaxing beach getaway, an adventure-packed vacation in the mountains, or something in between, you have virtually unlimited opportunities to explore incredible destinations this summer.Vacation ReadyTo help ensure you enjoy your vacation experience, we remain committed to Vacation Ready, our enhanced health and safety measures. Our housekeeping teams are working in overdrive, and we continue to follow state and local mandates, where applicable.

We’re pleased to share many of your resort amenities have reopened for your enjoyment. We’ve also made several improvements around our resorts to enhance your experience, including curbside check-in to get you on your vacation safely and efficiently, and new wristbands that allow you to open your suite, access resort amenities, and unlock local deals.Prioritizing Owner ReservationsTo help you cross different destinations off your bucket list, we are continuing our efforts to prioritize owner reservations by limiting access by non-owners at select resorts during peak travel times. Since we began these efforts in March, we’ve heard feedback from many owners that you’ve been able to achieve your vacation plans and visit many popular destinations during your desired travel times — and that you’d like to see these options expanded even further. You’ve also told us how much you enjoy sharing your love of travel with family and friends, and spending time with them at our resorts during family reunions and other special occasions.

With owner feedback in mind, we’re making several enhancements to this effort, including:

  • Adding even more resorts and travel dates where owner travel will be prioritized. Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information about the select destinations and travel periods so that you can plan your vacations accordingly.  • Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.  • For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.
You can read more about these updates here.

When I reflect on where we were a year ago compared to where we are today, it’s a journey none of us could have anticipated. Your wellbeing remains our top priority, and we will continue to adapt operations as local, state, and federal guidance evolves. While there may be a few bumps along the way, we are excited to see that so many people are able to get back on vacation — as owners, you understand better than anyone the powerful impact that vacations have in our lives. I hope we see you on vacation soon. Here’s to a safe, fun, and unforgettable summer!

Sincerely,



Geoff Richards
Chief Operating Officer
Wyndham Destinations


----------



## Jan M.

Well now I have to take back what I said this morning. They did a much better job with this list. 

The one thing that has me puzzled is why Westwinds, and only Westwinds, is on the list for November and December. Of the Myrtle Beach resorts Westwinds is the last choice for most owners and some won't stay there because it's an older resort. Also I didn't think there was much demand for Myrtle Beach period in November and December. Is there something going on there that I'm missing?


----------



## vacatiionking

Have you seen the NEW black out sites and times?  Most weekends and special events will no longer be available to unaccompanied guests at some but not all resorts.  It will take an Excel spreadsheet to figure out how you are affected.  Thanks, Wyndham for continuing to deny me the use you sold me.  So the March letter was just the camel's nose under the tent.............


----------



## rickandcindy23

Our daughter found out about this through Koala because of course she has rented a lot through that site.  This is extremely vindictive of Wyndham.  This is going to make a lot of owners angry.  This is not how we were sold on Wyndham in 2006.  So much has been taken away, including unlimited guest certificates for platinum.  Once again, I am constantly reassessing what I need to do with our ownerships for Shell, WorldMark and Wyndham.  It's not what was sold to us.


----------



## PhilD41

Well, I don't know about you, but this one does perturb me as an owner.  To @rickandcindy23's point, this is not what was sold to my parents either. They spent 10's of thousands because they were told that is how they made it cheaper for their kids (me). Now I am being told, "Just kidding!"  Well, michael.brown@wyn.com will be getting an email this time. It will be polite and respectful, but it will voice my frustration in their bate and switch. It will also let him know that this direction will loose them business... I know, they already have my parents money, and they would love to get our points back so they can resell them... That may be true, but I can guarantee that everyone we know or ever have interaction with on the subject will know Wyndham is not a trustworthy company and they should never do business with them. If nothing else, it will make me feel better... maybe.


----------



## Sandy VDH

That is another super shitty move on Wyndham's part.  I think they are definitely putting pressure on the renter crowd.  

Notify everyone late on a Friday and give them that day only to arrange it.


----------



## paxsarah

rickandcindy23 said:


> This is going to make a lot of owners angry.


I think this is going to make a very small percentage of owners angry. The vast majority of owners will be satisfied with unlimited guest reservations overlapping with an owner and two guest reservations separately per year. I’m sympathetic to the fact that Wyndham has significantly moved the goalposts, but I think your perception of how many owners will be negatively affected is off. (I don’t doubt that the proportion of TUG owners affected is higher than the general owner population.)


----------



## chapjim

I have to look at my reservations for the next couple of months.  My gut impression is that I may not have many left after canceling those that are affected.


----------



## LDBEH

Not just for the remainder of 2021 - but into 2022 - Wyndham keeps changing the rules.  I don't have anything affected, but it sure makes for some difficulties helping friends and family next year.  Unbelievable that they can change how people can spend points that they purchased...and without any way to fight it!


----------



## chapjim

LDBEH said:


> Not just for the remainder of 2021 - but into 2022 - Wyndham keeps changing the rules.  I don't have anything affected, but it sure makes for some difficulties helping friends and family next year.  Unbelievable that they can change how people can spend points that they purchased...and without any way to fight it!



The thing that annoys me most is that Wyndham is taking care of small owners by peeing on the legs of the people who have spent the most on Wyndham's product.

Just for spite, I will probably keep the reservations I have, even though I can't add a guest, and cancel at Day 15.


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> I think this is going to make a very small percentage of owners angry. The vast majority of owners will be satisfied with unlimited guest reservations overlapping with an owner and two guest reservations separately per year. I’m sympathetic to the fact that Wyndham has significantly moved the goalposts, but I think your perception of how many owners will be negatively affected is off. (I don’t doubt that the proportion of TUG owners affected is higher than the general owner population.)



Thinking that I am part of a minority doesn't give me any comfort or make me think more highly of Wyndham corporate.


----------



## chapjim

Delete.


----------



## rickandcindy23

chapjim said:


> That doesn't give me any comfort.


Me neither.  I agree with you.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I feel for all of those who did not find out about this on TUG or by email.  This is such a nasty thing for Wyndham to do, and it really does affect more people than some might think.  It's going to hurt a lot of people.  At least we can give back our points that aren't platinum/ founders.  

I see a lawsuit in Wyndham's future.


----------



## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> I think this is going to make a very small percentage of owners angry. The vast majority of owners will be satisfied with unlimited guest reservations overlapping with an owner and two guest reservations separately per year. I’m sympathetic to the fact that Wyndham has significantly moved the goalposts, but I think your perception of how many owners will be negatively affected is off. (I don’t doubt that the proportion of TUG owners affected is higher than the general owner population.)



The verbiage in the letter differs from what the website says. For now I'd go with what the website says. 

*The letter says:*
Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, *you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.*

For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods *when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year*, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.

*The website says:*
You can travel *with* your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates. Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates).

Some people may be assuming that the new list supersedes the old list. To be on the safe side until we hear otherwise I'd go with the new list is in addition to the old list.


----------



## lost patience

I have reservations that I made for a group of friends that had not yet booked their flights and did not know who was arriving first.  How can Wyndham make changes like this with no warning?  I am presidential and paid a lot for this.  Not even allowing guest names to be added to reservations already made?  How can I protest?


----------



## lost patience

Jan M. said:


> Well now I have to take back what I said this morning. They did a much better job with this list.
> 
> The one thing that has me puzzled is why Westwinds, and only Westwinds, is on the list for November and December. Of the Myrtle Beach resorts Westwinds is the last choice for most owners and some won't stay there because it's an older resort. Also I didn't think there was much demand for Myrtle Beach period in November and December. Is there something going on there that I'm missing?



So the only thing I could think of is that, They dont want to lose out all the money that they make from extraholidays. Last time when they chose the resorts the black outs extended to extra holidays. So if they make a lot of money from extra holidays at certain Myrtle beach resorts or resorts across the nation they will not want want to have those dates blocked off.


----------



## Jan M.

This new list was a bold move and I admit to being surprised by the scope of it. In case someone from Wyndham is following this thread and reporting in about what's being said, whoever compiled this new list did a much, much better job this time. It could still use some more work but I doubt anyone from Wyndham is going to call me and ask for my expertise.

I know some people think Wyndham is doing this to benefit Extra Holidays. That isn't at all what these lists are about. While it's true that because of COVID there are a number of owners with points they need to use there's also more to it than that. I can say with absolute certainty that there are valid reasons that factored into the decision to do what Wyndham is doing. I'm not going to discuss what I know or how I know it but I can assure you that Wyndham believes that what they're doing will improve the ownership experience for the majority of owners. It's my personal opinion that if what they're doing doesn't bring about the desired results Wyndham will be taking other steps to accomplish their agenda.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Any information on how this is enforced? It's a lot to keep track of, especially the exceptions (like OK if overlapping with an owner and the 2 unaccompanied guests over the year).  And how would that flow into extraholidays (if an owner was on property could they turn over rooms for that time period to extra holidays). Whether it's a reservation made on the owner site, or turned over to extraholidays, you can sure see the opportunity for abuse.  I would think it would have to be manually (I got the impression what was being done 1st wave was), and this exponentially more complicated. Lord help us if they are trying to program it, well I guess lord help us either way.

I am not willing to ever risk renting to someone and have them not have a room when they arrive (or even have it cancelled before). So don't take this as something I would try, but what if I have this:

Jun 20-July 2 - book room and add guest
July 1- July 8 - book room in my name

Have guest checkin on June 20.  On any day after that, cancel my July 1 reservation. I realize it's not that simple, I could lose the points cancelling the owner reservation, but I could have insured that, or what if I put a guest on it after June 20 but prior to July 1 - then it would auto cancel and I'd get my points back (and I have my June 20 reservation checked in). 

I can't imagine running a rental business juggling these type of things. But with complicated rules come more opportunities to find loopholes/wiggle your way around things. 

I for one will be creating my own spreadsheet, assessing dates and locations, and with the number of points I typically rent, feel comfortable I can still get those points rented, or look to get rid of some points, perhaps even our ownership. Bad overall for the family as we do use a considerable amount of our points for personal use and being able to rent any excess has allowed the family to use as much or little as they wanted, and not have to commit to helping pay maintenance fees on the excess points. If renting the excess is too challenging, then reassessing if it's worth having comes into play big time.

Other thoughts overall, this has made rebooking when discounts become available much less possible. Nice win for Wyndham. The issue of who is arriving first if you place a guest on a reservation is more critical (if Wyndham cared they would allow for more than guest name on a reservation, something like that). Wyndham has continued to provide a substandard system, searching still sucks. Almost for sure owners are complaining they can't find stuff, and it's the sub-standard / not user friendly system crippling their ability to book a vacation. And here we are pointing the finger at guest usage instead. 

Ahhhh, and thanks Wyndham for the couple hours notice. Just what was needed in the midst of a family emergency. These short notice fire drills have to be kept in mind, as well, when assessing if Wyndham is something I want to continue to own. You just stole precious, irreplaceable time from me. That I won't forget.


----------



## Eric B

While I can sympathize with the megarenters, I think the new policy isn't the end of the world for them.  Wyndham did include a fairly large loophole in it - in addition to the 2 guest confirmations annually there's the following:



Eric B said:


> Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.



If you really want to rent out a 4 BR Presidential or more during one of the blackout periods and have already used your 2 guest confirmations, all you have to do is reserve a studio at the same resort (or whatever the smallest room size is) for the minimum number of days with a single overlapping day.  That raises the costs, of course, but those will just get passed on to the folks that rent from them.  Might make it a bit harder for others to get a small room Sunday-Thursday during those periods as we'll probably wind up with a bunch of 3-day reservations in the lower cost rooms to allow guests in the bigger ones once the real megarenters figure it out, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as there's a reason for those days being less costly.


----------



## Eric B

Sandi Bo said:


> So don't take this as something I would try, but what if I have this:
> 
> Jun 20-July 2 - book room and add guest
> July 1- July 8 - book room in my name



That's along the lines of what I was thinking the approach would wind up being.  My thought is that the more rational approach would be:

July 31 - August 7 - book Bonnet Creek 4 BR Presidential for rental (424,000)
August 2 - August 5 - book Bonnet Creek 1 BR Deluxe in my name so I can rent the 4 BR (60,000)

Net increase in point cost = 14%.  You do make a good point about insuring the deposit to further reduce the costs, though they could eliminate that option during the blackout periods to restrict it more.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Eric B said:


> That's along the lines of what I was thinking the approach would wind up being.  My thought is that the more rational approach would be:
> 
> July 31 - August 7 - book Bonnet Creek 4 BR Presidential for rental (424,000)
> August 2 - August 5 - book Bonnet Creek 1 BR Deluxe in my name so I can rent the 4 BR (60,000)
> 
> Net increase in point cost = 14%.  You do make a good point about insuring the deposit to further reduce the costs, though they could eliminate that option during the blackout periods to restrict it more.


Right!  And might I not rebook that Aug 2-5 for 24,000 as we get within 60 days? Further reducing my cost.

There just has to be a penalty or repercussions of sorts for doing so. Obviously Bonnet Creek (or any resort) would not remove a guest that is in-house if the owner subsequently cancelled their reservation (or even was a no-show). And maybe it is just you can't cancel and lose the points if the owner doens't show up?

Again, no water I care to test, but the more you think about this, the more scenarios you can come up.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> This new list was a bold move and I admit to be surprised by the scope of it. In case someone from Wyndham is following this thread and reporting in about what's being said, whoever compiled this new list did a much, much better job this time. It could still use some more work but I doubt anyone from Wyndham is going to call me and ask for my expertise.
> 
> I know some people think Wyndham is doing this to benefit Extra Holidays. That isn't at all what these lists are about. While it's true that because of COVID there are a number of owners with points they need to use there's also more to it than that. I can say with absolute certainty that there are valid reasons that factored into the decision to do what Wyndham is doing. I'm not going to discuss what I know or how I know it but I can assure you that Wyndham believes that what they're doing will improve the ownership experience for the majority of owners. It's my personal opinion that if what they're doing doesn't bring about the desired results Wyndham will be taking other steps to accomplish their agenda.


The changes are to help availability for owners use and limit rentals. It also helps EH when long time owners give up on the rental game. It used to be a lot easier and less time was needed to rent at a profit. There comes a point where its just not worth the time or aggravation when factoring in all the new rules let alone the website bugs.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> I feel for all of those who did not find out about this on TUG or by email.  This is such a nasty thing for Wyndham to do, and it really does affect more people than some might think.  It's going to hurt a lot of people.  At least we can give back our points that aren't platinum/ founders.
> 
> I see a lawsuit in Wyndham's future.


Lawsuits are only beneficial to lawyers. I feel for the owners that bought more points believing the sales pitch of renting extra points to pay all maintenance fees. Cancel re book, elimination of free hk's and  elimination of gc's during busy or holiday weekends just drives mega renters to throw in the towel.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Lawsuits are only beneficial to lawyers. I feel for the owners that bought more points believing the sales pitch of renting extra points to pay all maintenance fees. Cancel re book, elimination of free hk's and  elimination of gc's during busy or holiday weekends just drives mega renters to throw in the towel.


I wonder if they still pitch the renting extra points to cover your maintenance fees?  Surely they don't pitch cancel/rebook (but nothing would surprise me). 

This does also help sales, be an owner - get priority booking dates.


----------



## dgalati

vacatiionking said:


> Have you seen the NEW black out sites and times?  Most weekends and special events will no longer be available to unaccompanied guests at some but not all resorts.  It will take an Excel spreadsheet to figure out how you are affected.  Thanks, Wyndham for continuing to deny me the use you sold me.  So the March letter was just the camel's nose under the tent.............


More like the beginning of the end for mega renters.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> I wonder if they still pitch the renting extra points to cover your maintenance fees?  Surely they don't pitch cancel/rebook (but nothing would surprise me).
> 
> This does also help sales, be an owner - get priority booking dates.


Last presentation in Vegas they were pitching this as a way to lower maintenance fees.


----------



## bendadin

Just surveying the new list:

Non-CWA Resorts

Midtown 45 (PR)
Royal Vista
MVC St Thomas (PR)
Avon (PR)
Kona
Royal Gardens
Beach Walk
Inn On Long Wharf

18 PR Resorts:

Out of 18  PR Resorts, 4 not affected:
Sundara
King Cotton
Dye Villas
Bali Hai

The majority of the resorts are CWA and I would venture a guess also in prime season.

So what we know:

CWA plays a really huge part in this
PR was hit with a larger percentage

Maybe that reclassification of non-VIP taking precedence over VIP isn't such a fluke afterall. @JanM


----------



## Sandi Bo

bendadin said:


> The majority of the resorts are CWA and I would venture a guess also in prime season.
> 
> So what we know:
> 
> CWA plays a really huge part in this
> PR was hit with a larger percentage
> 
> Maybe that reclassification of non-VIP taking precedence over VIP isn't such a fluke afterall. @JanM


Why does it matter if it's CWA or PR? And what reclassification are you referring to?


----------



## Cyrus24

Sandi Bo said:


> Jun 20-July 2 - book room and add guest
> July 1- July 8 - book room in my name
> 
> Have guest checkin on June 20. On any day after that, cancel my July 1 reservation. I realize it's not that simple, I could lose the points cancelling the owner reservation, but I could have insured that, or what if I put a guest on it after June 20 but prior to July 1 - then it would auto cancel and I'd get my points back (and I have my June 20 reservation checked in).
> 
> I can't imagine running a rental business juggling these type of things. But with complicated rules come more opportunities to find loopholes/wiggle your way around things.


In your case, book 7/1-2 for yourself.  If it's more cost effective, get the points protection.  Add the cost to the 12 day reservation.  Either don't show on 7/1 or cancel on 6/30. 

As for rental businesses, I'm not associated with any rental businesses, but, if I had the points, I'd book those priority weekends for the desired room sizes along with a cheap overlap rental at the end of the rental period  Add that cost to the rentals.  Then, just don't show up or cancel (if you have points protection).  The overlapping reservation option is a real benefit for the mega-renters, rent those high value/high demand reservations at a premium.  Mega-renters win, the rest of us lose.

So easy to find loopholes.  This priority policy is primed for abuse and doomed for failure.


----------



## paxsarah

Another thing I saw pointed out on Facebook is booking multiple units in the same timeframe at the same resort for rental, but just one owner unit - so that expense could be split among several rentals.


----------



## VacayKat

Sandi Bo said:


> I wonder if they still pitch the renting extra points to cover your maintenance fees?  Surely they don't pitch cancel/rebook (but nothing would surprise me).
> 
> This does also help sales, be an owner - get priority booking dates.


They still do both in my experience. Literally was told - Shell you buy the points you need, but with Wyndham, it’s a whole different mentality. Owners are about maximizing their points - rebook at 60 days so you can get double the vacation! And they heavily push ExtraHolidays every time they see how many points we have. Like they essentially say we are stupid if we aren’t doing that.


----------



## MaryBella7

I don’t rent out my points, but I have rented from others if I have run out of points. I currently have an Extra Holidays weekend rental. I am wondering if these restrictions will also impact Extra Holidays rentals? If so it seems like it could really hurt their ability to rent, too. Also when it comes to weekends, does that mean if it is ONLY a weekend rental, or a full week with the weekend attached will also be impacted?


----------



## Normita

Here is the latest from Wyndham owner services.  I just got off the phone, speaking to an agent.
Apparently their computer will keep track of the two guest confirmations allowed without you being there.  However, the agent said that you would be best to call owners' services to "clear" the guest confirmation to make sure that it is allowed.
If you have a reservation for a full week that includes one of the blackout weekends, it is subject to cancellation.  You could try phoning and asking for owner services and grovelling.  It helps to have a birthday celebration, wedding , or some similar event, and they will decide on an individual basis.
Cancellations can occur right up to the day before.  She said 24 hours, and I forgot to ask about same day.  Either way, it is not convenient for your guests, especially if they have airline tickets.


----------



## CO skier

Huh.  Wyndham Desert Blue and Wyndham Grand Desert made the list for the last two weeks of the year (among many other times).  Maybe someone at Wyndham does read these TUG threads.



CO skier said:


> That is the only explanation I can think of for why Desert Blue Las Vegas is on the list for July 4th week and Grand Desert Las Vegas is not.  With the high point costs at Desert Blue relative to Grand Desert, Desert Blue would have availability within 60 days, whereas Grand Desert might not.
> 
> Why are neither of these resorts on the list for the last two weeks of the year?




or maybe it is just coincidence.


----------



## chapjim

Cyrus24 said:


> In your case, book 7/1-2 for yourself.  If it's more cost effective, get the points protection.  Add the cost to the 12 day reservation.  Either don't show on 7/1 or cancel on 6/30.
> 
> As for rental businesses, I'm not associated with any rental businesses, but, if I had the points, I'd book those priority weekends for the desired room sizes along with a cheap overlap rental at the end of the rental period  Add that cost to the rentals.  Then, just don't show up or cancel (if you have points protection).  The overlapping reservation option is a real benefit for the mega-renters, rent those high value/high demand reservations at a premium.  Mega-renters win, the rest of us lose.
> 
> So easy to find loopholes.  This priority policy is primed for abuse and doomed for failure.



You may be right about it being doomed for failure.  However, as is often the case, when something like this doesn't work, they do more of it.  So, it may be better if it does work.  That way they'll pat each other on the back and jolly up each other for a job well done.

Basically, what they have done is make Grand Desert, Bonnet Creek, Ocean Boulevard, and National Harbor off-limits to guests for weekends.  We can work with this.

Edit:  Add Indio, which I don't understand.  Is Indio that much in demand?  I know where it is.  I've been there and have no burning desire to go back.


----------



## rickandcindy23

According to our daughter, this is a policy that has no end date, so this isn't just about this year, necessarily.  This could be ongoing forever.  I see us dumping a lot of points and keeping the points associated with the Platinum/ Founders ownership.  I am hoping Wyndham will still allow us to use Ovations.  

But I did credit pool points for two years out, so there's that. 

I kind of thought the policy might be because mega renters had a lot of points credit pooled and had to be used this year, which created a lack of inventory for others.  Now it's clear that Wyndham is just restricting rentals for good. 

BocaBum99 used to argue that platinum members get inventory for a discount that resale buyers and owners without status didn't take when they had a chance. I agree with that. So IMHO any talk of how platinum members are taking all of the inventory is a weak argument for all that might think we are getting what we deserve. We pay a lot of maintenance fees and purchased developer on the promise that we could have unlimited guest certificates (that was taken away) and we could rent our excess points.

The decision to use Ovations for our resale points will be easy to make. But I do worry about those credit pooled points. Using those will be tough and the timing has to be just right. RCI may not be an option.


----------



## CO skier

rickandcindy23 said:


> BocaBum99 used to argue that platinum members get inventory for a discount that resale buyers and owners without status didn't take when they had a chance. I agree with that.


That must have been waaay back in the days of cancel/rebook.  It was a false argument then, because VIP owners would book 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials at 13 months, then cancel/rebook or cancel-upgrade from a 1 bedroom at 60 days for the VIP discount.

Now that these 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials are not profitable rentals without the VIP discount, owners who bought into Club Wyndham for their personal use are booking these units at full points cost to take their family on vacation.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.

These new restrictions just extend the idea that owners who bought into Club Wyndham for their personal use should have priority over commercial renting, which is, after all, against the rules.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> That must have been waaay back in the days of cancel/rebook.  It was a false argument then, because VIP owners would book 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials at 13 months, then cancel/rebook or cancel-upgrade from a 1 bedroom at 60 days for the VIP discount.
> 
> <snip>



BocaBum99 and rickandcindy23 are right.  It is true now and has nothing to do with cancel/re-book.

I look for rentable units two months before check-in -- units that have been *passed over by all other owners* for the previous eight to eleven months.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.


----------



## rickandcindy23

A new Wyndham outlet for rentals:  https://www.panoramatravelsolutions.com/v6

This is the reason for the limitations on renting inventory.  They are making money any way they can, and it will cost owners.


----------



## CO skier

chapjim said:


> BocaBum99 and rickandcindy23 are right.  It is true now and has nothing to do with cancel/re-book.
> 
> I look for rentable units two months before check-in -- units that have been *passed over by all other owners* for the previous eight to eleven months.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.


Do you really expect us to believe that the National Harbor 2 bedroom Presidential was just sitting there for "eight to eleven months?"  









						Wyndham National Harbor, 2BR Presidential, July 17-24
					

$800  Floor plan may be different.  PM me, please!




					tugbbs.com
				




Of course not; you got lucky and found a cancellation that an owner had reserved at full points months and months earlier.  Which is fine and within the rules, except for the commercial renting rule.

You just want to deflect from my point about Bocabum99's false argument; owners (did and) do want the highly sought after units that were previously booked and re-booked within 60 days for the VIP discount using the cancel-rebook scam.  And now they are finding these units available and booking them at full points cost.


----------



## rickandcindy23

CO skier said:


> Do you really expect us to believe that the National Harbor 2 bedroom Presidential was just sitting there for "eight to eleven months?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham National Harbor, 2BR Presidential, July 17-24
> 
> 
> $800  Floor plan may be different.  PM me, please!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not; you got lucky and found a cancellation that an owner had reserved at full points months and months earlier.  Which is fine and within the rules, except for the commercial renting rule.
> 
> You just want to deflect from my point about Bocabum99's false argument; owners (did and) do want the highly sought after units that were previously booked and re-booked within 60 days for the VIP discount using the cancel-rebook scam.  And now they are finding these units available and booking them at full points cost.


To cancel and rebook within 60 days for the discount, you have to be online at exactly the right time to get a reservation back.  That is something our daughter hadn't figured out.  Used to be, before the "update/downgrade" a few years ago, we could do that, but that is no longer something we can do without risk of losing the reservation completely.  Inventory randomly comes back, and there is no telling when it will make a comeback.  

Go ahead and argue that we are the evil ones and not Wyndham.  Wyndham's product was always sold as a means of income, even in 2005, our first presentation was all about making money, and we walked away because I was in disbelief.  That salesperson told me about TUG, and BocaBum99 and a few others here were instrumental in our decision to acquire platinum benefits, and we paid for it, but the payoff on the investment was immediate, and thank goodness that we can walk away from everything but those still-valuable benefits of our original platinum purchase.  The rest of the resale points can go back to Wyndham.


----------



## Sandi Bo

rickandcindy23 said:


> A new Wyndham outlet for rentals:  https://www.panoramatravelsolutions.com/v6
> 
> This is the reason for the limitations on renting inventory.  They are making money any way they can, and it will cost owners.


So isn't this what is driving all of this? Blame it on "megarenters" and looky loo!


----------



## rickandcindy23

Sandi Bo said:


> So isn't this what is driving all of this? Blame it on "megarenters" and looky loo!


Wyndham has a grand plan.  They will get more buyers through their rental sites.  How many more rental sites are out there that have Wyndham's name embedded in them.  

I remember Kendra from back in the day who was rightly outraged by Wyndham's touting the benefits of owning platinum and free guest certificates (unlimited back then). She actually lost her home after that loss of income. Kendra owned a website that had Wyndham included in the name [of that website]. She was threatened and gave up the website but basically sold her rights to the site for free guest certificates for a while. She would never say how she settled with Wyndham. 

Others also won lawsuits over the guest certificate rule change. But none would come here and tell us what happened and how they benefitted from the suits.


----------



## CO skier

rickandcindy23 said:


> Go ahead and argue that we are the evil ones and not Wyndham.


Those  who violate the rules and use Club Wyndham for commercial puposes are certainly not the innocent ones.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> Do you really expect us to believe that the National Harbor 2 bedroom Presidential was just sitting there for "eight to eleven months?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham National Harbor, 2BR Presidential, July 17-24
> 
> 
> $800  Floor plan may be different.  PM me, please!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not; you got lucky and found a cancellation that an owner had reserved at full points months and months earlier.  Which is fine and within the rules, except for the commercial renting rule.
> 
> You just want to deflect from my point about Bocabum99's false argument; owners (did and) do want the highly sought after units that were previously booked and re-booked within 60 days for the VIP discount using the cancel-rebook scam.  And now they are finding these units available and booking them at full points cost.



Considering what a 2 BR Presidential unit costs at full price (400,000 in prime season), I have no difficulty thinking it was (or they were) available for months.  Lots of Wyndham owners don't have 400,000 points in their account.  For whatever reasons and circumstances, they were available and bookable by any Wyndham owner that had sufficient points available.

You dragged the cancel-rebook thing into the discussion when bocabum said. ". . .  platinum members get inventory for a discount that resale buyers and owners without status didn't take when they had a chance . . . ."  That has nothing to do with cancel-rebook.  Maybe these 2BR Presidential units were previously booked and canceled.   The fact remains that if someone had found these units before I did, they could have booked them.  That didn't happen.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> Those who violate the rules and use Club Wyndham for commercial puposes are certainly not the innocent ones.



I think you missed the point. Not sure why some are blatant Wyndham apologists. But Cindy was making the accurate point that for more than a decade Wyndham sales told us to buy more points to reach the level we could use cancel and rebook and turn around and sell the rental unit. Sales even told me to call the Wyndham owner reservation line and have them cancel the unit and rebook it. It was a much less risky way to do it. So clearly sales and customer service were offering at least tacit approval to this technique and sales profited mightily from it. 

So don’t act like owners who rent reservations are somehow now “violating” the rules like a criminal. History may have conveniently been forgotten by some. But others of us here are going to call you out on it. Your post is both inaccurate and inflammatory. You can do better. 

Wes.


----------



## wjappraise

chapjim said:


> Considering what a 2 BR Presidential unit costs at full price (400,000 in prime season), I have no difficulty thinking it was or they were available for months. Lots of Wyndham owners don't have 400,000 points in their account. For whatever reasons and circumstances, they were available and bookable by any Wyndham owner that had sufficient points available.
> 
> You dragged the cancel-rebook thing into the discussion when bocabum said. ". . . platinum members get inventory for a discount that resale buyers and owners without status didn't take when they had a chance . . . ." That has nothing to do with cancel-rebook. Maybe these 2BR Presidential units were previously booked and canceled. The fact remains that if someone had found these units before I did, they could have booked them. That didn't happen.



You are correct. Perfect example - a four bedroom presidential unit is available right now for Clearwater for thanksgiving week. Of course it’s 650,000 points. It’s just sitting there - for months now - just waiting for CoSkier to go reserve it. Or will he just ignore it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I encourage everyone who has been "renting" Wyndham, even if you are only renting at very modest levels, to call Wyndham's customer care department and complain about the new changes of policy and get some clarification on the two guest certificates.  I believe you are all mistaken that it is some kind of loophole. 

As an English major, who makes a lot of mistakes in written and spoken word (admittedly), I have to state that this letter to owners is confusing, poorly written, and I believe is meant to purposely confuse us.  They want us to make assumptions, but do not assume.  Make the phone call to Wyndham and find out for sure what the policy is.  Be sure to register your complaint or voice your concern over the new policy.


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> That must have been waaay back in the days of cancel/rebook.  It was a false argument then, because VIP owners would book 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials at 13 months, then cancel/rebook or cancel-upgrade from a 1 bedroom at 60 days for the VIP discount.
> 
> Now that these 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials are not profitable rentals without the VIP discount, owners who bought into Club Wyndham for their personal use are booking these units at full points cost to take their family on vacation.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.
> 
> These new restrictions just extend the idea that owners who bought into Club Wyndham for their personal use should have priority over commercial renting, which is, after all, against the rules.  I do not see how anyone can object to that.



Clearly the full point reservations in the big units must be profitable. Take a look on eBay at the Wyndham rentals. Then narrow it down to looking at all the listings a seller has and do that for several sellers. I think you'll be just as surprised as I was about how many 3 and 4 bedroom full point reservations are being offered. Dates that aren't in the discount and upgrade window. From what I remember back in the days of cancel/rebook most of the full point rentals offered were for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, 4th of July, special events like Bike Week or a big race week, etc. Maybe I'm mistaken about that? From what I saw on eBay it looks to me like the owners who do a lot of renting will book anything and everything at full points in the big units. It doesn't matter when it is; they'll book it at full points. And there must be enough profit in it to make it worth their while. After looking at a couple of sellers and what they have at several of the most rented resorts I found myself thinking that a huge percentage of the 3 and 4 bedroom units at these resorts have to be occupied by renters rather than owners. I was not expecting to see what I saw and wondered if owners are really any better off at this point than they were pre-Voyager.

When Wyndham's made repeated attempts to control the renting you have to figure at some point when nothing they've done has worked that they'll eventually be forced to to something that will work. It follows that there are owners who are going to be impacted even though they aren't the ones Wyndham is targeting and they won't be happy. Nor will the owners who Wyndham is targeting be happy.

I'm not going to get into a debate with anyone about Wyndham being the biggest renter of all or them not being able to define "commercial renting". You might as well give that up right now because that line of reasoning will get you absolutely nowhere. The important thing to remember is that it's Wyndham's game, they make the rules, it's their ball and their their court. We pay to play. Some of us paid a lot more than others to be allowed to play. If anyone did so based on what they were told that contradicts the verbiage in what they signed when they bought, well it sucks and life isn't fair. I know some of you will say but what will Wyndham do when so many owners decide to be done with Wyndham? That Wyndham won't risk losing them. Think again and quit deluding yourself. Wyndham is exercising right of first refusal on CWA contracts when they come in to be transferred. Someone, if not Wyndham then I don't know who it could possibly be, is drying up the resale market. Those of us who watch the eBay listings for fun or with the intent to buy have been commenting on this. It's pretty darn clear that Wyndham is fully prepared to handle any fallout from what they're trying to accomplish or we wouldn't be seeing this second list come out.

I've already seen people here on TUG and on Facebook saying there will be lawsuits. What exactly do you think that will get you but a lot of your time wasted and any attorney on your case getting richer? If you bought developer and if you're lucky, at best you'll end up with a fraction of what you paid after the attorneys get their fees and/or expenses. Wyndham gets lawsuits brought against them all the time and they typically settle out of court with a non disclosure agreement and those owners being "no longer an owner".  In some cases those owners cannot ever own Wyndham again or even stay at a Wyndham property. Some owners may be fine with that.


----------



## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> I encourage everyone who has been "renting" Wyndham, even if you are only renting at very modest levels, to call Wyndham's customer care department and complain about the new changes of policy and get some clarification on the two guest certificates. I believe you are all mistaken that it is some kind of loophole.
> 
> As an English major, who makes a lot of mistakes in written and spoken word (admittedly), I have to state that this letter to owners is confusing, poorly written, and I believe is meant to purposely confuse us. They want us to make assumptions, but do not assume. Make the phone call to Wyndham and find out for sure what the policy is. Be sure to register your complaint or voice your concern over the new policy.



Thanks Cindy. 

It seems like a logistics nightmare for us as owners to navigate. And just think of the nightmare this presents to Wyndham IT to correctly track this!!! And we all know (even CO skier has to agree) that Wyndham IT should certainly be devoting it’s resources to actually providing a reliable website - not providing a mafia hit on EH competition. 

Wes.


----------



## 55plus

I pick up a lot of cancelled units within the 60 day timeframe, but they are for mine and my family's use. If I need a firm date during a demand timeframe I book it ahead. If something that will work comes available within the discount window I book it and cancel the other. I seldom stay some place at full points.


----------



## wjappraise

The timing of this suggests that the prior comments from one of the Wyndham IT helpers here wasn’t accurate. When she was asked “why such a short notice?” the response was that it had been planned much earlier to give owners a good amount of time to adjust their reservations and add guest names as needed, but the final approval for the wording took too long so it resulted in owners only having a few hours (if they even got the email) to adjust. 

Now we have the same exact notice- a few hours. So it’s clear they were lying to Richelle then. And this is how they will foist changes on us - with no real advance warning. 

Terrible treatment of customers (we like to call ourselves owners, but we clearly are not in Wyndham’s view, we are customers, cash cows). 

Wes.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> Clearly the full point reservations in the big units must be profitable. Take a look on eBay at the Wyndham rentals. Then narrow it down to looking at all the listings a seller has and do that for several sellers. I think you'll be just as surprised as I was about how many 3 and 4 bedroom full point reservations are being offered. Dates that aren't in the discount and upgrade window. From what I remember back in the days of cancel/rebook most of the full point rentals offered were for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, 4th of July, special events like Bike Week or a big race week, etc. Maybe I'm mistaken about that? From what I saw on eBay it looks to me like the owners who do a lot of renting will book anything and everything at full points in the big units. It doesn't matter when it is; they'll book it at full points. And there must be enough profit in it to make it worth their while. After looking at a couple of sellers and what they have at several of the most rented resorts I found myself thinking that a huge percentage of the 3 and 4 bedroom units at these resorts have to be occupied by renters rather than owners. I was not expecting to see what I saw and wondered if owners are really any better off at this point than they were pre-Voyager.
> 
> When Wyndham's made repeated attempts to control the renting you have to figure at some point when nothing they've done has worked that they'll eventually be forced to to something that will work. It follows that there are owners who are going to be impacted even though they aren't the ones Wyndham is targeting and they won't be happy. Nor will the owners who Wyndham is targeting be happy.
> 
> I'm not going to get into a debate with anyone about Wyndham being the biggest renter of all or them not being able to define "commercial renting". You might as well give that up right now because that line of reasoning will get you absolutely nowhere. The important thing to remember is that it's Wyndham's game, they make the rules, it's their ball and their their court. We pay to play. Some of us paid a lot more than others to be allowed to play. If anyone did so based on what they were told that contradicts the verbiage in what they signed when they bought, well it sucks and life isn't fair. I know some of you will say but what will Wyndham do when so many owners decide to be done with Wyndham? That Wyndham won't risk losing them. Think again and quit deluding yourself. Wyndham is exercising right of first refusal on CWA contracts when they come in to be transferred. Someone, if not Wyndham then I don't know who it could possibly be, is drying up the resale market. Those of us who watch the eBay listings for fun or with the intent to buy have been commenting on this. It's pretty darn clear that Wyndham is fully prepared to handle any fallout from what they're trying to accomplish or we wouldn't be seeing this second list come out.
> 
> I've already seen people here on TUG and on Facebook saying there will be lawsuits. What exactly do you think that will get you but a lot of your time wasted and any attorney on your case getting richer? If you bought developer and if you're lucky at best you'll end up with a fraction of what you paid after the attorneys get their fees and/or expenses. Wyndham gets lawsuits brought against them all the time and they typically settle out of court with a non disclosure agreement and those owners being "no longer an owner".  In some cases those owners cannot ever own Wyndham again or even stay at a Wyndham property. Some owners may be fine with that.


Oh, Jan, you are so right.  Wyndham might lose something in a big lawsuit but not enough to hurt them, and I have made enough money over the years to just call Ovations and give it back.  Our daughter will be hurt by this more than we will be.  

I just kind of thought the policy might be temporary to allow owners that are not platinum, gold or silver to use their points after Covid, and with no clarification as to an end date to these resorts not being available for booking guests, it stands to reason that the policy is not about Covid and a shortage of inventory for other owners to use their ownerships.


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> I pick up a lot of cancelled units within the 60 day timeframe, but they are for mine and my family's use. If I need a firm date during a demand timeframe I book it ahead. If something that will work comes available within the discount window I book it and cancel the other. I seldom stay some place at full points.


As long as those family members are on your account, you should be fine.  But if you have to add guest names, that could become a problem for even booking for family.  Our kids are all on our membership, but one daughter-in-law is not listed on the membership.  

I always told my aunt and my sister that we look enough alike that I could loan them my driver's license and credit card to check into one of the resorts without a guest certificate, but I was joking about it.  Now, I don't know.  My sister most especially could pass as me.


----------



## chapjim

rickandcindy23 said:


> <snip>
> 
> As an English major, who makes a lot of mistakes in written and spoken word (admittedly), I have to state that this letter to owners is confusing, poorly written, and I believe is meant to purposely confuse us.  They want us to make assumptions, but do not assume.  Make the phone call to Wyndham and find out for sure what the policy is.  Be sure to register your complaint or voice your concern over the new policy.



I thought it was just me that thought the letter could have been written more clearly and with less ambiguity.  I'm not convinced we know what Wyndham meant when they wrote the part about two guest confirmations/year and whether there is a loophole there as some have suggested.  I won't be the first to try it out!


----------



## paxsarah

rickandcindy23 said:


> As an English major, who makes a lot of mistakes in written and spoken word (admittedly), I have to state that this letter to owners is confusing, poorly written, and I believe is meant to purposely confuse us.


I found the letter (email) to be very clear.

The website wording, however, is a hot mess. Given that the two sources don’t convey the same message, Wyndham needs to clean that up ASAP.


----------



## 55plus

Surprisingly, Glacier Canyon isn't on the list during the 4th of July. I was able to pick up several units during that timeframe within the discount window. There was a big reservation dump a few days ago. A number of them were two bedroom units so I was able to upgrade from one bedroom units. It's all about timing.


----------



## lost patience

I have a friend that was platinum.  July 2020 at Wyndham Cottages he went to the sales presentation.  They convinced him to purchase ~300k additional to get to Founders.  They provided him with the name of a megarenter.  They called the megarenter during the sales pitch to coordinate the megarenter renting the extra points so that it would cover the cost of the ~300k purchase.  No, I did not see the math, cause I'm pretty sure it will not work.  But wanted to share that "YES" sales staff pushes renting.  (At least last July they did)


----------



## wjappraise

paxsarah said:


> I found the letter (email) to be very clear.
> 
> The website wording, however, is a hot mess. Given that the two sources don’t convey the same message, Wyndham needs to clean that up ASAP.



There are numerous folks here smarter than I am. And certainly I am far from an English major. So maybe some of you can help me. 

Did I miss it, or is there a need for better explanation of the limitations in place for weekend stays? Does that mean it limits guest from staying that are only booked for the two nights comprising a weekend (Friday and Saturday)? Would a guest be allowed to stay for seven nights as this wouldn’t be a weekend stay? Or can a guest only stay on Sunday to Thursday nights? So many questions and no real answers! 

And the IT department is already overmatched. I predict a real sh** storm. 

I’m your weather man. 

Wes.


----------



## paxsarah

wjappraise said:


> Did I miss it, or is there a need for better explanation of the limitations in place for weekend stays?


I guess it’s probably not in there, but I assume that because this is an extension/expansion  of the policy put in place in March that the same rules apply - that a single night overlapping with the restricted dates will subject the reservation to cancellation (if applicable under the new allowances).

All the more reason they need to clarify the language on the website and make it a prominent link in multiple places. The website should be the canonical source for the details of this policy, and it shouldn’t be something an owner needs to know to search for - it should be staring them in the face all over the owner website, because this policy is obviously here to stay for a while.


----------



## lost patience

Normita said:


> Here is the latest from Wyndham owner services.  I just got off the phone, speaking to an agent.
> Apparently their computer will keep track of the two guest confirmations allowed without you being there.  However, the agent said that you would be best to call owners' services to "clear" the guest confirmation to make sure that it is allowed.
> If you have a reservation for a full week that includes one of the blackout weekends, it is subject to cancellation.  You could try phoning and asking for owner services and grovelling.  It helps to have a birthday celebration, wedding , or some similar event, and they will decide on an individual basis.
> Cancellations can occur right up to the day before.  She said 24 hours, and I forgot to ask about same day.  Either way, it is not convenient for your guests, especially if they have airline tickets.


I just called and the are closed "for the holiday".  How did you get through?


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Thanks Cindy.
> 
> It seems like a logistics nightmare for us as owners to navigate. And just think of the nightmare this presents to Wyndham IT to correctly track this!!! And we all know (even CO skier has to agree) that Wyndham IT should certainly be devoting it’s resources to actually providing a reliable website - not providing a mafia hit on EH competition.
> 
> Wes.


Looks like most resources are going to limiting or encumbering the rental game. The web experience is taking a back seat to eliminating owners that rent more then they personally use.


----------



## Sandi Bo

paxsarah said:


> I found the letter (email) to be very clear.
> 
> The website wording, however, is a hot mess. Given that the two sources don’t convey the same message, Wyndham needs to clean that up ASAP.


I did not get the email.  (And saw your other post, thank you, i am the point of contact under my ownership, but not receiving emails that I should).


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Looks like most resources are going to limiting or encumbering the rental game. The web experience is taking a back seat to eliminating owners that rent more then they personally use.


Why not specify what is legitimate use and what is not. Rather than EVERYTHING being subject to interpretation.  Wyndham makes the timeshare business the slimy business it is.  Unless they don't want to have to follow the same rules we do?


----------



## dgalati

lost patience said:


> I have a friend that was platinum.  July 2020 at Wyndham Cottages he went to the sales presentation.  They convinced him to purchase ~300k additional to get to Founders.  They provided him with the name of a megarenter.  They called the megarenter during the sales pitch to coordinate the megarenter renting the extra points so that it would cover the cost of the ~300k purchase.  No, I did not see the math, cause I'm pretty sure it will not work.  But wanted to share that "YES" sales staff pushes renting.  (At least last July they did)


 Wyndham math never adds up!  Like I said earlier sales is still promoting and selling more points to cover all maintenance fees.. Corporate turns a blind eye when it comes to padding the bottom line.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> Why not specify what is legitimate use and what is not. Rather than EVERYTHING being subject to interpretation.  Wyndham makes the timeshare business the slimy business it is.  Unless they don't want to have to follow the same rules we do?


The whole business is filled with sharks. Starting with the parking pass desk, to sales and the exit teams.  Like Jan said its their game and they make the rules. Even if the rules differ from what sales is saying to sell more points. I found out that you will never get a defined set of rules as they are a moving target and subject to change when they feel it necessary.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Anyone who gets the official word via email about guest confirmations being allowed when the owner is on property, please copy/paste the email here, so we can be clear on that policy.  Even after a phone call to owner care, the policy is not clear to me.  The written word is always better for clarification (unless it's written as poorly as the information we received so far).


----------



## paxsarah

rickandcindy23 said:


> Anyone who gets the official word via email about guest confirmations being allowed when the owner is on property, please copy/paste the email here, so we can be clear on that policy.  Even after a phone call to owner care, the policy is not clear to me.  The written word is always better for clarification (unless it's written as poorly as the information we received so far).


Do you mean clarification beyond this?


Eric B said:


> • Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.


----------



## dioxide45

paxsarah said:


> Do you mean clarification beyond this?


The problem is that it was indicated that it conflicts with the website that says this;

_You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates. Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates)._

Though I don't really think it does. The problem is that on the website they are trying to say two different things in the same sentence.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> Anyone who gets the official word via email about guest confirmations being allowed when the owner is on property, please copy/paste the email here, so we can be clear on that policy. Even after a phone call to owner care, the policy is not clear to me. The written word is always better for clarification (unless it's written as poorly as the information we received so far).



Here are the three bullet points from the email:

With owner feedback in mind, we’re making several enhancements to this effort, including:

• Adding even more resorts and travel dates where owner travel will be prioritized. Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information about the select destinations and travel periods so that you can plan your vacations accordingly.

• Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.

• For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandi Bo

lost patience said:


> I just called and the are closed "for the holiday".  How did you get through?


A little sketchy, no?  The banks remained open, stock market was open. Wyndham was open this morning. Are they seriously closed for Juneteenth and did they announce somewhere that was going to happen? I don't see any mention of it on the website.


----------



## Eric B

I figured they were closed in preparation for Prime Day....


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> A new Wyndham outlet for rentals:  https://www.panoramatravelsolutions.com/v6
> 
> This is the reason for the limitations on renting inventory.  They are making money any way they can, and it will cost owners.


This looks like it is targeted toward travel agents to start selling Wyndham inventory.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> • Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information.



I don’t find this to be true. WHERE do I find the up-to-date information? I’m on my mobile web browser and I don’t see it? Why do so many of us not get these incredibly important policy changing emails? 

Wes


----------



## Sandi Bo

dioxide45 said:


> This looks like it is targeted toward travel agents to start selling Wyndham inventory.


It looks like a travel club. 

Several years ago we went to a presentation here in Omaha (at one of Warren Buffet's favorite hangout - Gorat's). They were selling some type of travel club, and would have taken my Wyndham points.   Hmmmm.

Is this a Travel & Leisure thing?


----------



## dioxide45

Sandi Bo said:


> It looks like a travel club.
> 
> Several years ago we went to a presentation here in Omaha (at one of Warren Buffet's favorite hangout - Gorat's). They were selling some type of travel club, and would have taken my Wyndham points.   Hmmmm.
> 
> Is this a Travel & Leisure thing?


Could be, but I don't think so. They talk about creating a private label website and B2B2C (Business to Business to Customer) membership programs. Much the same as some cruise excursion companies operate with travel agents. The agent sets up a website with their name but it is all done through the excursion company.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Here are the three bullet points from the email:
> 
> With owner feedback in mind, we’re making several enhancements to this effort, including:
> 
> • Adding even more resorts and travel dates where owner travel will be prioritized. Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information about the select destinations and travel periods so that you can plan your vacations accordingly.
> 
> • Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.
> 
> • For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks to be very clear from post above. Everyone just has to keep in mind Gift Certificates are not called Rental Certificates. GC'S were intended for guests not for commercial rentals or a way for owners to pay all maintenance fees then travel for free on the remaining points. Wyndham is trying to prioritize reservations for owners personal use instead of letting the rental abuse continue. A few will argue they were sold more points to pay maintenance fees but the last time I checked this was no a benefit in the members directory. Cancel Re book was also sold as a benefit but it never was. If Wyndham really wanted to limit rentals all they would have to do was limit the percentage of points that could be used with GC'S.  I am sure it would be a very easy item to implement like the HK fees were added. JMHO!


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> If Wyndham really wanted to limit rentals all they would have to do was limit the percentage of points that could be used with GC'S. I am sure it would be a very easy item to implement like the HK fees were added.


I like this idea.  Let's those of us who like to use our points, but have just a few too many, retain a process for getting rid of the extra using GC's.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> I like this idea.  Let's those of us who like to use our points, but have just a few too many, retain a process for getting rid of the extra using GC's.


15 GC'S for every million points is excessive IMHO. A few owners are squawking that they are not receiving another 15 at any amount over the first million. Think about it a 1 bedroom for a weekly stay is 154k points or lets assume you only did 3-4 night stays at a average of 77k points. 10 reservations at 77k is 770k points or over 3/4 of what is owned. Lets say every reservation is done in the 60 day discount window  at 33.5k per reservation the 15 GC's  would cover (15x33.5k) 502k points or over 1/2 owned. GC'S are being abused for rentals but  Wyndham also profits by adding the $99 GC fee if you use over the allotted amount.


----------



## bendadin

But this isn't the only noticeable move as of late.

So far we have seen: 

Unlimited HK disappear as a benefit to new VIP.
ROFR being added to CWA June/July 2018
A dramatic reduction in the amount of contracts available for purchase on the resale market
Severe stipulations being added to "some" resale contracts (which is a whole new can of worms.)

Are they chipping away at the original VIP owners so they get so frustrated that they leave (hence wiping out unlimited HK?)


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> 15 GC'S for every million points is excessive IMHO. A few owners are squawking that they are not receiving another 15 at any amount over the first million. Think about it a 1 bedroom for a weekly stay is 154k points or lets assume you only did 3-4 night stays at a average of 77k points. 10 reservations at 77k is 770k points or over 3/4 of what is owned. Lets say every reservation is done in the 60 day discount window at 33.5k per reservation the 15 GC's would cover (15x33.5k) 502k points or over 1/2 owned. GC'S are being abused for rentals but Wyndham also profits by adding the $99 GC fee if you use over the allotted amount.



You’re killing me Smalls. 

I use all my guest certificates and buy some each year even though our extended family uses the majority of our points. 
1. Not every guest reservation is a rental. I recently gifted two as wedding gifts for their honeymoon trips. 
2. Your calculations are flawed as you are assuming a 7 day stay. Average Wyndham stay is 3 days. 
3. We have plenty of family members not on the deeds so we need to use guest certificates for them. 
4. I own a small business and often send my employees on spring break trips. Or I did. 
My advice ... stop giving Wyndham bad advice. Based on their track record, they will use it. 

Wes.


----------



## VacayKat

wjappraise said:


> You’re killing me Smalls.
> 
> I use all my guest certificates and buy some each year even though our extended family uses the majority of our points.
> 1. Not every guest reservation is a rental. I recently gifted two as wedding gifts for their honeymoon trips.
> 2. Your calculations are flawed as you are assuming a 7 day stay. Average Wyndham stay is 3 days.
> 3. We have plenty of family members not on the deeds so we need to use guest certificates for them.
> 4. I own a small business and often send my employees on spring break trips. Or I did.
> My advice ... stop giving Wyndham bad advice. Based on their track record, they will use it.
> 
> Wes.


Second this!

And for those of us that do use some of our points for rentals- it’s not like we are taking inventory that we aren’t entitled to. It doesn’t matter who stays in the room if we purchased the points and pay the MF fees. Additionally Wyndham sold the points with the explicit statement that rentals can be used to cover MF fees and showed us how to do it. [Fun fact through Extraholidays no Guest cert is used…. Maybe they don‘t count those rentals against the policy?)
I won’t hit my GC allotment, but it’s super nice to have a buffer as plans can change and cancelling means the GC isn’t returned and you need to use a second one to rebook. I’d be pissed if Wyndham took them away.


----------



## Eric B

bendadin said:


> Severe stipulations being added to "some" resale contracts (which is a whole new can of worms.)



Not sure what this is supposed to be.  What are they adding as stipulations to some resale contracts and how are they doing that?


----------



## paxsarah

VacayKat said:


> It doesn’t matter who stays in the room if we purchased the points and pay the MF fees.


This is where I come down. If you aren’t able to rent out reservations like you normally do, do they think that y’all are just go let your points expire, unused? Obviously not - you’re going to use them one way or another, so there’s no real additional availability for other owners (it just may be shifted slightly).

It’s always seemed to me that what people who rail against renters want is for those points never to get used. That’s the only way true availability will be opened up. Otherwise, you still just have to be faster or luckier, just like always.


----------



## 55plus

It's all about Wyndham's bottom line, which equates into bonuses for some.


----------



## wjappraise

paxsarah said:


> This is where I come down. If you aren’t able to rent out reservations like you normally do, do they think that y’all are just go let your points expire, unused? Obviously not - you’re going to use them one way or another, so there’s no real additional availability for other owners (it just may be shifted slightly).
> 
> It’s always seemed to me that what people who rail against renters want is for those points never to get used. That’s the only way true availability will be opened up. Otherwise, you still just have to be faster or luckier, just like always.



Well said. 

My work is as a real estate appraiser and some of my work entails valuing future sites in developments, subdivisions, and PUD units. It never ceases to amaze how individuals who own a site in the adjoining subdivision will feel like they want to prevent the new development from proceeding. They feel that they own the rights to view your undeveloped land, and are upset when you want to actually use your land (ironically use it the same way they are - for a home). They don’t pay any of the taxes, but feel their rights are being violated when the land next door is used. Similar dynamics here. Fortunately, most zoning and land use boards understand the applicable laws regarding development and move beyond the inevitable outrage of the homeowner who now has to look at a home as drab and generic as his. 

Wes.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> You’re killing me Smalls.
> 
> I use all my guest certificates and buy some each year even though our extended family uses the majority of our points.
> 1. Not every guest reservation is a rental. I recently gifted two as wedding gifts for their honeymoon trips.
> 2. Your calculations are flawed as you are assuming a 7 day stay. Average Wyndham stay is 3 days.
> 3. We have plenty of family members not on the deeds so we need to use guest certificates for them.
> 4. I own a small business and often send my employees on spring break trips. Or I did.
> My advice ... stop giving Wyndham bad advice. Based on their track record, they will use it.
> 
> Wes.





dgalati said:


> 15 GC'S for every million points is excessive IMHO. A few owners are squawking that they are not receiving another 15 at any amount over the first million. Think about it a 1 bedroom for a weekly stay is 154k points or lets assume you only did 3-4 night stays at a average of 77k points. 10 reservations at 77k is 770k points or over 3/4 of what is owned. Lets say every reservation is done in the 60 day discount window  at 33.5k per reservation the 15 GC's  would cover (15x33.5k) 502k points or over 1/2 owned. GC'S are being abused for rentals but  Wyndham also profits by adding the $99 GC fee if you use over the allotted amount.



Be fair Wes I did calculate 3-4 day stays on only a one bedroom in the 60 day discount window. I also mentioned Wyndham finds it convenient to collect $99 for a guest fee if you use your allotment of GC's. @VacayKat we all know sales uses a lot of half truths and lies to seal the deal.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> It's all about Wyndham's bottom line, which equates into bonuses for some.


Rember sales is what drives corporate profits. Its hard for corporate to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> A little sketchy, no?  The banks remained open, stock market was open. Wyndham was open this morning. Are they seriously closed for Juneteenth and did they announce somewhere that was going to happen? I don't see any mention of it on the website.



Sounds like they got tired of trying to answer questions. VCs probably were unable to answer all the questions so they shut it down.

Where on the website is the notice of the additional restrictions?

Edit:  Never mind. I found it.  They could have buried it a little deeper and made even more difficult to find.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> Be fair Wes I did calculate 3-4 day stays on only a one bedroom in the 60 day discount window. I also mentioned Wyndham finds it convenient to collect $99 for a guest fee if you use your allotment of GC's. @VacayKat we all know sales uses a lot of half truths and lies to seal the deal.



I’m alway fair Dominic. 

Wes.


----------



## WyndhamBarter

chapjim said:


> Where on the website is the notice of the additional restrictions?



https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinat...rces/reservations/owner-priority-reservations

The above link was included in the email from Wyndham.  I got it yesterday , with this subject line:

Club Update: Summer Is Here and Vacations Are Back


----------



## wjappraise

chapjim said:


> Sounds like they got tired of trying to answer questions. VCs probably were unable to answer all the questions so they shut it down.
> 
> Where on the website is the notice of the additional restrictions?
> 
> Edit: Never mind. I found it. They could have buried it a little deeper and made even more difficult to find.



Where is it? I can’t find it. Sigh. 

Wes.


----------



## chapjim

wjappraise said:


> Where is it? I can’t find it. Sigh.
> 
> Wes.



You gotta drill, baby, drill!









						Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
					

Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				




I would think that this deserves the same kind of billing that the system upgrades get.  (There you go thinking again, Jim!)


----------



## rickandcindy23

> You’re killing me Smalls.



So funny.  I have a dear son-in-law who says that, and Rick says it sometimes, too, and mostly to me.  

I know that some of you are very happy to see the VIP members going down.  You just never know what Wyndham has planned next.  I would love to be a fly on the wall for the current sales pitch, but I won't be invited to one, that is for sure.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> You gotta drill, baby, drill!


As an aside, if there’s one thing the current iteration of the Wyndham website has done to me, it’s trained me out of trying to drill down through menus to the information I’m looking for, and I just type words into the search bar. What if you don’t know enough to know what to search for? I guess you’re out of luck!


----------



## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> Where is it? I can’t find it. Sigh.
> 
> Wes.



Click on Owner Guide and under that Resources. Page down to Reservations and open it. You'll see 4 pictures. The one one the right is Owner Priority Reservations. That's where you'll find both the old and new lists.


----------



## regatta333

I wonder how long it will take for them to expand this to include July/August 2022 weekends?


----------



## dgalati

regatta333 said:


> I wonder how long it will take for them to expand this to include July/August 2022 weekends?





wjappraise said:


> You’re killing me Smalls.
> My advice ... stop giving Wyndham bad advice. Based on their track record, they will use it.
> 
> Wes.



Hopefully Wyndham doesn't read the post suggesting the expansion of July/August dates into 2022.


----------



## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> This is where I come down. If you aren’t able to rent out reservations like you normally do, do they think that y’all are just go let your points expire, unused? Obviously not - you’re going to use them one way or another, so there’s no real additional availability for other owners (it just may be shifted slightly).
> 
> It’s always seemed to me that what people who rail against renters want is for those points never to get used. That’s the only way true availability will be opened up. Otherwise, you still just have to be faster or luckier, just like always.


That is basically what I was trying to say.


----------



## 55plus

chapjim said:


> You gotta drill, baby, drill!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com


Wow! This is good news for those who have points to use due to the COVID shutdown, but not for those who count on renting to make ends meet. To be fair, there should not be any of the restricted dates, weekends, time-frames, etc., for rent on Extra Holidays or any other rental site. If there is, Wyndham needs to be called out on it for the double standard.


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> Wow! This is good news for those who have points to use due to the COVID shutdown, but not for those who count on renting to make ends meet. To be fair, there should not be any of the restricted dates, weekends, time-frames, etc., for rent on Extra Holidays or any other rental site. If there is, Wyndham needs to be called out on it for the double standard.


That was exactly what I thought the blocking of holidays was all about, people having points left after Covid last year, so I wasn't terribly concerned back then, but now I know better.


----------



## wjappraise

Question for the IT gurus here: 

Do you believe that Wyndham IT is savvy enough to design, install, test (yes this purposely placed after install), modify, support, and maintain a system to truly track whether an owner has a reservation that at a minimum overlaps a guest reservation by one day? 

Thanks. 
Wes.


----------



## Eric B

wjappraise said:


> Question for the IT gurus here:
> 
> Do you believe that Wyndham IT is savvy enough to design, install, test (yes this purposely placed after install), modify, support, and maintain a system to truly track whether an owner has a reservation that at a minimum overlaps a guest reservation by one day?
> 
> Thanks.
> Wes.



I thought testing it was our job....


----------



## 55plus

wjappraise said:


> Question for the IT gurus here:
> 
> Do you believe that Wyndham IT is savvy enough to design, install, test (yes this purposely placed after install), modify, support, and maintain a system to truly track whether an owner has a reservation that at a minimum overlaps a guest reservation by one day?
> 
> Thanks.
> Wes.


I believe they do. I booked a reservation that overlapped by two days and received a warning during the transaction. If the system can warm it can cancel. It's all automated.


----------



## r4rab

wjappraise said:


> Question for the IT gurus here:
> 
> Do you believe that Wyndham IT is savvy enough to design, install, test (yes this purposely placed after install), modify, support, and maintain a system to truly track whether an owner has a reservation that at a minimum overlaps a guest reservation by one day?
> 
> Thanks.
> Wes.


Normally it wouldn't be too hard to do this type of thing. In fact there are off the shelf algorithms to verify if there is a union between 2 arrays (think of a series of reservation dates as an array). Can Wyndham IT do it? I don't know. They have not inspired confidence to date.


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> I thought testing it was our job....


 @ericb owners are the Crash test dummies


----------



## HitchHiker71

wjappraise said:


> Question for the IT gurus here:
> 
> Do you believe that Wyndham IT is savvy enough to design, install, test (yes this purposely placed after install), modify, support, and maintain a system to truly track whether an owner has a reservation that at a minimum overlaps a guest reservation by one day?
> 
> Thanks.
> Wes.



AFAIK there’s a back end process that already performs the GC based cancellations. It’s not related to the front end DT team that manages the website. Two different teams altogether. If there’s already a back end process - I do not see it as difficult to modify the existing process to query the current account record for an overlapping reservation that does not have a GC associated, and to first check to see if the two complimentary GCs have already been used. The logic for these validations is simple. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> As an aside, if there’s one thing the current iteration of the Wyndham website has done to me, it’s trained me out of trying to drill down through menus to the information I’m looking for, and I just type words into the search bar. What if you don’t know enough to know what to search for? I guess you’re out of luck!



Search using “priority reservations” in the website search box, it’s the first hit that comes up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> I believe they do. I booked a reservation that overlapped by two days and received a warning during the transaction. If the system can warm it can cancel. It's all automated.



I haven’t tried this recently - it’s good to know the website has the logic to produce a warning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Search using “priority reservations” in the website search box, it’s the first hit that comes up.


Because I’m lazy, I just type “guest” and it’s the second result. 

My point being, I know what to search for and what terms will work. If a less informed owner doesn’t even know where to start, their searches are going to be far less helpful.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> AFAIK there’s a back end process that already performs the GC based cancellations. It’s not related to the front end DT team that manages the website. Two different teams altogether. If there’s already a back end process - I do not see it as difficult to modify the existing process to query the current account record for an overlapping reservation that does not have a GC associated, and to first check to see if the two complimentary GCs have already been used. The logic for these validations is simple.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thank you for your answer. 

It will be interesting to see how it rolls out. I still hold to the opinion that Wyndham should be devoting ALL of its IT attention to stabilizing the website before turning its attention to eliminating Extra Holidays competitors. 

Wes.


----------



## VacayKat

paxsarah said:


> Because I’m lazy, I just type “guest” and it’s the second result.
> 
> My point being, I know what to search for and what terms will work. If a less informed owner doesn’t even know where to start, their searches are going to be far less helpful.


Or they won’t even know to look. Wyndham changing things with less than reasonable notice is part of the problem.

To be fair, at this point I don’t even consider myself an owner - I’m just a schmuck that gave some money in exchange for points to use in ansystem that promised me the sun and the moon but really gave me Chernobyl. My fault for thinking a corporation would have my interests in mind if they called me an owner. I know better now, I’m just a revenue source.


----------



## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> Or they won’t even know to look. Wyndham changing things with less than reasonable notice is part of the problem.
> 
> To be fair, at this point I don’t even consider myself an owner - I’m just a schmuck that gave some money in exchange for points to use in an system that promised me the sun and the moon but really gave me Chernobyl. My fault for thinking a corporation would have my interests in mind if they called me an owner. I know better now, I’m just a revenue source.


 That's a pretty harsh synopsis.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> That's a pretty harsh synopsis.



Exactly right. 

Chernobyl wasn’t that bad.


----------



## lost patience

I just got off the phone with Wyndham.....     I have several units booked for July 2 weekend.  Most of the group arrives on July 2.  I don't arrive until July 3.  I had applied guest names to 2 of the reservations, but not the other 3.  The VC told me that my reservations booked prior to June 18 for a group going to Vegas would not be impacted by the new restrictions as they were booked prior to June 18.  I read him the words from the website and he retracted his statement and told me I had to arrive on July 2 and leave one in my name.  I then booked a 2N starting July 3 in my name - I likely will not use it as I'll be staying in the 2br.  We booked these so that each of us had our own rooms already.    I asked if adding this unit would solve the problem that was created by a short notice policy change.  He transferred me to owner care.  Owner care said that would not work as I had to check in on the same night as everyone else.  I then read the words to her from the email.  She put me on hold and asked someone else.    She returned with "yes" that will work.  End result - I'm out additional points.  There is one less unit available for the July 2 weekend at one of the resorts on the restricted list.  Plus vacation counselors and owner care are not sure what's going on either.


----------



## HitchHiker71

lost patience said:


> I just got off the phone with Wyndham..... I have several units booked for July 2 weekend. Most of the group arrives on July 2. I don't arrive until July 3. I had applied guest names to 2 of the reservations, but not the other 3. The VC told me that my reservations booked prior to June 18 for a group going to Vegas would not be impacted by the new restrictions as they were booked prior to June 18. I read him the words from the website and he retracted his statement and told me I had to arrive on July 2 and leave one in my name. I then booked a 2N starting July 3 in my name - I likely will not use it as I'll be staying in the 2br. We booked these so that each of us had our own rooms already. I asked if adding this unit would solve the problem that was created by a short notice policy change. He transferred me to owner care. Owner care said that would not work as I had to check in on the same night as everyone else. I then read the words to her from the email. She put me on hold and asked someone else. She returned with "yes" that will work. End result - I'm out additional points. There is one less unit available for the July 2 weekend at one of the resorts on the restricted list. Plus vacation counselors and owner care are not sure what's going on either.



Curious - why not just use the add nights function and add one night to your existing reservation that started on July 3 so it aligned with the July 2 requirement?  I assume this one was in your own name already since you stated you would be using it.  That said, I might be misunderstanding your multi room reservation setup and requirements, or perhaps there wasn’t availability for that room type to add a night. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lost patience

The extra room is a waste.  I don't need nor want it.  It will sit empty. July 2- 4 is Fri/Sat and would waste more points as compared to July 3-5 which is Sat/Sun.


----------



## 55plus

I understand how frustrating this must be for owners, especially those who didn't receive notification of the change. One would think Wyndham would have IT remove the guest check box from the specific resorts during the specific timeframes and put a message/link in place of the policy change. Overall, the change does benefit owners who want to travel during restricted periods. I noticed Bonnet Creek had numerous units available over the Fourth. That's great for owners who couldn't never get in there over the Fourth of July holiday. Personally, I'd like to see these restrictions continue, maybe with a few tweaks, indefinitely.


----------



## paxsarah

lost patience said:


> The extra room is a waste.  I don't need nor want it.  It will sit empty. July 2- 4 is Fri/Sat and would waste more points as compared to July 3-5 which is Sat/Sun.



It took me a couple times reading the original post to understand (I think) what's going on. There were originally five units, and your name as an owner was never going to be on any of them - you were going arrive later and stay in a unit that a guest had already checked into the day before, is that correct? So now you've created a dummy reservation in your own name that overlaps, thus "blessing" the remaining guest units.

Sigh. Unfortunately, I think that's the best you could have done in this situation. Even in trying to make things easier for owners with guests, they've missed some situations.


----------



## paxsarah

55plus said:


> I understand how frustrating this must be for owners, especially those who didn't receive notification of the change. *One would think Wyndham would have IT remove the guest check box from the specific resorts during the specific timeframes and put a message/link in place of the policy change.* Overall, the change does benefit owners who want to travel during restricted periods. I noticed Bonnet Creek had numerous units available over the Fourth. That's great for owners who couldn't never get in there over the Fourth of July holiday. Personally, I'd like to see these restrictions continue, maybe with a few tweaks, indefinitely.



This would be helpful (having read stories of people who added guests after the March restrictions and weren't warned, and lost the reservation) - but only if the programming can check the particular owner's account to see if they are eligible to add a guest or not. You and I could both book a 4th of July Bonnet Creek reservation, and one of us could be eligible (not having used either of our two unaccompanied guests), and the other one could not be. And then it would also have to work correctly.


----------



## chapjim

lost patience said:


> I just got off the phone with Wyndham.....     I have several units booked for July 2 weekend.  Most of the group arrives on July 2.  I don't arrive until July 3.  I had applied guest names to 2 of the reservations, but not the other 3.  The VC told me that my reservations booked prior to June 18 for a group going to Vegas would not be impacted by the new restrictions as they were booked prior to June 18.  I read him the words from the website and he retracted his statement and told me I had to arrive on July 2 and leave one in my name.  I then booked a 2N starting July 3 in my name - I likely will not use it as I'll be staying in the 2br.  We booked these so that each of us had our own rooms already.    I asked if adding this unit would solve the problem that was created by a short notice policy change.  He transferred me to owner care.  Owner care said that would not work as I had to check in on the same night as everyone else.  I then read the words to her from the email.  She put me on hold and asked someone else.    She returned with "yes" that will work.  End result - I'm out additional points.  There is one less unit available for the July 2 weekend at one of the resorts on the restricted list.  Plus vacation counselors and owner care are not sure what's going on either.



Besides the inconvenience and waste to the owner, the distressing part is that neither the Vacation Counselor nor Owner Care understood how the thing works and both were talked out of their initial opinion by simply reading from Wyndham's own website.

Way to go, Wyndham!


----------



## lost patience

paxsarah said:


> It took me a couple times reading the original post to understand (I think) what's going on. There were originally five units, and your name as an owner was never going to be on any of them - you were going arrive later and stay in a unit that a guest had already checked into the day before, is that correct? So now you've created a dummy reservation in your own name that overlaps, thus "blessing" the remaining guest units.
> 
> Sigh. Unfortunately, I think that's the best you could have done in this situation. Even in trying to make things easier for owners with guests, they've missed some situations.


Exactly correct.  Fortunately there was a unit available.  

Jim - Yes!!!  After the phone call hearing that Wyndham reps don't understand the policy, I'm still uneasy about them not cancelling my reservations.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> Even in trying to make things easier for owners with guests, they've missed some situations.


The strangely complicated policy of unlimited guest confirmations if as little as one night overlaps must have been an accommodation for the family reunion scenario.  It does open the loophole of a renter booking 9 guest reservations plus one reservation that overlaps at least one night, and there is no requirement the owner shows-up for their reservation.  Book 9 guest reservations for Christmas week and 9 reservations for New Year's, then book one owner reservation for two nights that overlap both sets of reservations -- the last date of the first nine and the first date of the second nine.  This is just to point out how much the policy can be abused, not that anyone would actually do it.

It would have been simpler and more effective to grant 4 unrestricted guest confirmations for the targeted dates and that is all.  With the additional family names on an account for reservations that do not require a confirmation, most family reunion scenarios would be served.

Much simpler to implement and understand by owners, reservationists and Owner Care.


----------



## Jan M.

For any resorts and dates on this new list if you have enough names on your account to hold the units you need I suggest not putting a guest name on any of those reservations at this time.

1. Even Owner Care doesn't have a clear and consistent interpretation at this time.

2. Are you really going to trust a website as screwed up as this one is not to cancel something it shouldn't?

3. There's no rush. You can add a guest name as you or they are standing at the check in desk because the resorts now see it immediately. _(Edited to add that I'm not suggesting this as a way to get around the restrictions. I was just trying to tell people not to worry about their family vacations while this is getting sorted out.)_

4. If you do have a guest name on a reservation at one of those resorts and times, open the reservation up and take a picture or screenshot of the details of that reservation. Open the modification details so you get the date the guest was added.


----------



## wjappraise

lost patience said:


> I just got off the phone with Wyndham..... I have several units booked for July 2 weekend. Most of the group arrives on July 2. I don't arrive until July 3. I had applied guest names to 2 of the reservations, but not the other 3. The VC told me that my reservations booked prior to June 18 for a group going to Vegas would not be impacted by the new restrictions as they were booked prior to June 18. I read him the words from the website and he retracted his statement and told me I had to arrive on July 2 and leave one in my name. I then booked a 2N starting July 3 in my name - I likely will not use it as I'll be staying in the 2br. We booked these so that each of us had our own rooms already. I asked if adding this unit would solve the problem that was created by a short notice policy change. He transferred me to owner care. Owner care said that would not work as I had to check in on the same night as everyone else. I then read the words to her from the email. She put me on hold and asked someone else. She returned with "yes" that will work. End result - I'm out additional points. There is one less unit available for the July 2 weekend at one of the resorts on the restricted list. Plus vacation counselors and owner care are not sure what's going on either.



That’s terrible that you had to correct both the reservation department and Owner Care. Wyndham has made this a true s*** storm.


----------



## Braindead

It seems that most are missing a key word on the website.

It states for reservations MADE after the 18th NOT checkin date. Any reservations made on or before the 18th will not be affected according Wyndham’s own verbage


----------



## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> It seems that most are missing a key word on the website.
> 
> It say for reservations MADE by the 18th NOT checkin date. Any reservations made by the 18th will not be affected according Wyndham’s own verbage


Guests must have been added by that date. By Wyndham's own verbiage, if the guest is added after the 18th even to an existing reservation, the reservation can be canceled (if not concurrent with an owner or one of the two permitted guests).


----------



## CO skier

Braindead said:


> It seems that most are missing a key word on the website.
> 
> It say for reservations MADE by the 18th NOT checkin date. Any reservations made by the 18th will not be affected according Wyndham’s own verbage


This is from the email

"Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like."


----------



## Braindead

paxsarah said:


> Guests must have been added by that date. By Wyndham's own verbiage, if the guest is added after the 18th even to an existing reservation, the reservation can be canceled (if not concurrent with an owner or one of the two permitted guests).





CO skier said:


> This is from the email
> 
> "Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like."


It clearly states for reservations MADE after the 18th.


----------



## JimmieJames1

"It clearly states for reservations MADE after the 18th. "

Yes, I'm counting on that since I made a GC on the 18th. before the email or notification came out.


----------



## Braindead

JimmieJames1 said:


> "It clearly states for reservations MADE after the 18th. "
> 
> Yes, I'm counting on that since I made a GC on the 18th. before the email or notification came out.


Adding a guest is modifying a reservation. The  reservation is made the day of booking


----------



## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> It clearly states for reservations MADE after the 18th.


It clearly states “Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (*including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates*).”


----------



## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> 3. There's no rush. You can add a guest name as you or they are standing at the check in desk because the resorts now see it immediately.


That will work at the restricted resorts and dates only for the two unrestricted guest confirmations or if the guest reservation overlaps an owner reservation by at least one day.


----------



## dgalati

Looks like Wyndham is using a play out of the sales play book. "Daze and confuse" or the lack of clarity is more then likely by design. At least they emailed owners rules that can be somewhat followed.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> The strangely complicated policy of unlimited guest confirmations if as little as one night overlaps must have been an accommodation for the family reunion scenario.  It does open the loophole of a renter booking 9 guest reservations plus one reservation that overlaps at least one night, and there is no requirement the owner shows-up for their reservation.  Book 9 guest reservations for Christmas week and 9 reservations for New Year's, then book one owner reservation for two nights that overlap both sets of reservations -- the last date of the first nine and the first date of the second nine.  This is just to point out how much the policy can be abused, not that anyone would actually do it.
> 
> It would have been simpler and more effective to grant 4 unrestricted guest confirmations for the targeted dates and that is all.  With the additional family names on an account for reservations that do not require a confirmation, most family reunion scenarios would be served.
> 
> Much simpler to implement and understand by owners, reservationists and Owner Care.


Wyndham could also create a lot of availability by eliminating resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrade benefits. If they wanted to I am sure they could start out by eliminating GC's that are attached to  reservations that use resale points with VIP discounts or free upgrades.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> Wyndham could also create a lot of availability by eliminating resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrade benefits. If they wanted to I am sure they could start out by eliminating GC's that are attached to reservations that use resale points with VIP discounts or free upgrades.



Smalls. You’re killing me. 
Stop ... while you’re behind!


----------



## VacayKat

dgalati said:


> That's a pretty harsh synopsis.


And imagine, that was the gentle version of how I feel most days.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Chuckling a bit every time I read 'CLEARLY states' in any of these messages.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> Chuckling a bit every time I read 'CLEARLY states' in any of these messages.


Unfortunately Wyndham is a moving target and It doesn't matter if some TUG members believe they are contract specialists.  I have to believe the confusion about what is "not clearly" stated is intended to limit GC's.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> It clearly states “Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (*including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates*).”





Braindead said:


> It seems that most are missing a key word on the website.
> 
> It say for reservations MADE after the 18th NOT check-in date. Any reservations made after the 18th will not be affected according Wyndham’s own verbiage





Braindead said:


> It clearly states for reservations MADE after the 18th.



Yea and I had a estoppel that clearly stated the following. Unfortunately I must of miss read what the estoppel stated and Wyndham transferred 616,000 points to new owner when no current use year points were available. Then Wyndham tried to charge me $12/1000 for points that were not available.. Looks to me like Wyndham is applying the same logic to GC'S but at least they gave fair warning and not after the fact.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I never did get a copy of the email, the actual email and really need a copy of that.  If someone could send me a PM, I will send you my email address to forward it to.  

I have had the same email address since 1999 and never changed it with Wyndham.  I should have gotten the email.


----------



## 55plus

For whatever reason, for me it's hit and miss when it comes to Wyndham emails. I've been an owner going on 30 years and some I receive and some I don't.


----------



## chapjim

Jan M. said:


> For any resorts and dates on this new list if you have enough names on your account to hold the units you need I suggest not putting a guest name on any of those reservations at this time.
> 
> 1. Even Owner Care doesn't have a clear and consistent interpretation at this time.
> 
> 2. Are you really going to trust a website as screwed up as this one is not to cancel something it shouldn't?
> 
> 3. There's no rush. You can add a guest name as you or they are standing at the check in desk because the resorts now see it immediately.
> 
> 4. If you do have a guest name on a reservation at one of those resorts and times, open the reservation up and take a picture or screenshot of the details of that reservation. Open the modification details so you get the date the guest was added.



#1.  True dat.
#2.  No, no, and a thousand times no!
#3.  There's no systematic urgency but renters like to see a guest confirmation.  Even my repeat renters might balk if I told them they would get a guest confirmation a month and a half after they paid me.  And, the later payment is required, the more likely the renter will cancel and I'll be stuck with a reservation I have to cancel or try to re-rent.
#4,  Sounds like good advice.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> Chuckling a bit every time I read 'CLEARLY states' in any of these messages.



Wyndham's writings sound like they were translated to Japanese, then translated back to English.


----------



## PhilD41

"That's right. At least a little. It may not be as clear as it would have been translated into another language, but it is still quite unclear. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist trying this!"

That actually is better than Wyndham's writings.


----------



## chapjim

I'm in the process of making reservations for 2022 that are not on the restricted list.  Also, waiting for Amendment 1 to the list to be issued with all the places they left out.


----------



## dgalati

I wonder How many Owners tapped out with this last curve ball limiting GC's on blackout dates?


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> I wonder How many Owners tapped out with this last curve ball limiting GC's on blackout dates?



If any did, good riddance... the only people who give a crap about this are renters.


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> If any did, good riddance... the only people who give a crap about this are renters.



I get it completely, but I do try to understand that many of these renters are there because salesmen laid out for them how they could exploit the Wyndham system to pay for maintenance fees and even make a profit.  So they bought, and bought, and bought, and then Wyndham started slowly closing the spigot on them.  Yes it is in club charter and contract terms that ownership is not for commercial purposes, but then you have a salesman walking you through how to do it and you go home and do it and it works.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> If any did, good riddance... the only people who give a crap about this are renters.


Wow! Thats a pretty insensitive reply. Many owners were sold more points then they could possibly use.  Sales used a stategy to have them buy more points to rent and cover maintenance fees. Have some consideration for the owners struggling to pay their monthly dues.


----------



## dgalati

Ty1on said:


> I get it completely, but I do try to understand that many of these renters are there because salesmen laid out for them how they could exploit the Wyndham system to pay for maintenance fees and even make a profit.  So they bought, and bought, and bought, and then Wyndham started slowly closing the spigot on them.  Yes it is in club charter and contract terms that ownership is not for commercial purposes, but then you have a salesman walking you through how to do it and you go home and do it and it works.


Yes it is still happening every day. Sales still uses this strategy  but corporate  is turning up the heat on commercial renters and it will eliminate most over time.


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> Wow! Thats a pretty insensitive reply. Many owners were sold more points then they could possibly use.  Sales used a stategy to have them buy more points to rent and cover maintenance fees. Have some consideration for the owners struggling to pay their monthly dues.



I have a harder time feeling sorry for people who were duped into buying more points than they needed under the guise of "renting your points to pay for MF"...

I feel more strongly for people who can't use their ownership because people with millions of points are taking up occupancy and selling it. That was why Wyndham did this... 

Your  illuminati like conspiracy theory of them doing this to put units into Extra Vacations was debunked months ago


----------



## wjappraise

troy12n said:


> If any did, good riddance... the only people who give a crap about this are renters.



Jeez. 

Somebody needs more roughage in his diet. 

Very myopic dude. Maybe you don’t use guest reservations now. But maybe you will in the future. And for those of us who do - we care! Renters or not.  Some of us have friends.  Maybe you don’t.  But we do. And those friends love to go to Wyndham resorts.  And I love using those trips as gifts and bonuses for my employees.  So, yeah.  I give a crap. 

Plus it is an erosion of your bundle of rights. And this will continue until it impacts you. Maybe then you’ll care.


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> Yes it is still happening every day. Sales still uses this strategy  but corporate  is turning up the heat on commercial renters and it will eliminate most over time.



"It's still happening every day"... says the guy who doesn't go to the "updates"... 

I realize this was a sales tactic, they did it to me at at least two, last one being Canterbury in 2019. It didn't influence me. But the last 3 I have been to, this was not part of the sales pitch. So I think you are, again, talking out of your backside. And correct me if I am wrong, but you are no longer an owner, so why are you even here?


----------



## troy12n

wjappraise said:


> Jeez.
> 
> Somebody needs more roughage in his diet.
> 
> Very myopic dude. Maybe you don’t use guest reservations now. But maybe you will in the future. Ans for those of us who do - we care! Renters or not.
> 
> Plus it is an erosion of your bundle of rights. And this will continue until it impacts you. Maybe then you’ll care.



Look... everyone is struggling to find places to vacation right now with too many points and not enough units to put people in. I have a hard time feeling sorry for renters right now. Period...

The facebook groups are full of people complaining about  not being able to use their points. They are the ones who are going to give up, and default. Which will impact everyone more long term than a small handful of mega million renters trying to run a small business out of their (and others) timeshare points...

Also, pretty melodramatic considering it was what, a small list of what, 10 resorts they restricted this activity at?


----------



## troy12n

I'm glad I made my reservations months ago, rather than risk trying to get in under 60 days, it's slim pickings out there right now, and as it is it looks like i'm dumping about 250k into 2023 before the end of the month when my 9 months in this use year is up...


----------



## wjappraise

troy12n said:


> Look... everyone is struggling to find places to vacation right now with too many points and not enough units to put people in. I have a hard time feeling sorry for renters right now. Period...
> 
> The facebook groups are full of people complaining about not being able to use their points. They are the ones who are going to give up, and default. Which will impact everyone more long term than a small handful of mega million renters trying to run a small business out of their (and others) timeshare points...



You didn’t say that.

You said the only ones who give a crap about erosion of usage rights are renters.

[DELETED]
TUG Posting Rules: 





> Be Courteous
> As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!


[DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## troy12n

wjappraise said:


> You didn’t say that.
> 
> You said the only ones who give a crap about erosion of usage rights are renters. And I’m throwing the BS flag on that petulant diatribe.



If you go back and look, I said that in a separate post, right before you replied to me initially...


----------



## paxsarah

troy12n said:


> people with millions of points are taking up occupancy and selling it


These are owners who own points that are in circulation and with the right to use them. Do you expect these owners to simply let their points expire, unused? Because that's the only way that true availability will open up.


----------



## 55plus

troy12n said:


> If any did, good riddance... the only people who give a crap about this are renters.


I believe owner usage should come before rentals during high demand timeframe and at high demand event locations. If someone needs to rent, then rent outside the restricted windows. The policies Wyndham implemented over the years hurt renters, but benefited owners who actually use their points for what they are intended - personal travel. If Extra Holidays is exempted from the restrictions, then it's not about, Owners First, it's about Wyndham's bottom line. Time will tell.


----------



## dioxide45

Why not allow guest certificates to be added to reservations made inside of 60 days, even inside these owner priority periods?


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> <snip>
> I feel more strongly for people who can't use their ownership because people with millions of points are taking up occupancy and selling it. *That was why Wyndham did this...*
> <snip>



That is why Wyndham SAID they did this.  Time after time, Wyndham has shown itself able to spin what it does -- making itself sound righteous while acting cynically.

Powerful arguments can be made that Wyndham is not looking out for the "little guy" with its latest move.


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> Look... everyone is struggling to find places to vacation right now with too many points and not enough units to put people in. I have a hard time feeling sorry for renters right now. Period...
> 
> The facebook groups are full of people complaining about  not being able to use their points. They are the ones who are going to give up, and default. Which will impact everyone more long term than a small handful of mega million renters trying to run a small business out of their (and others) timeshare points...
> 
> Also, pretty melodramatic considering it was what, a small list of what, 10 resorts they restricted this activity at?



BS!!  All the 2021 reservations I'm making now are made inside 60 days of check-in.  If they are available at 60 days, the Facebook people can't be looking very hard.  

By my count, 53 resorts were affected.  See attached.


----------



## biggen

Will be interesting to see how this goes moving forward and if there are any loopholes. We have been renting at WBC for 8 years now on average twice a year. Really sucks to think we may not be able to do that anymore since most of our times fall in the September/October time frame.


----------



## troy12n

chapjim said:


> That is why Wyndham SAID they did this.  Time after time, Wyndham has shown itself able to spin what it does -- making itself sound righteous while acting cynically.



I'm usually pretty cynical when it comes to "mega corp making changes that don't pass the smell test", but in this case, it's pretty obvious they are doing it to let owners get units at high demand locations. It was proven already that none of the inventory is going into extra vacations or to RCI... which was one of the conspiracy theories floated by the likes of our resident Curmudgeon...



> Powerful arguments can be made that Wyndham is not looking out for the "little guy" with its latest move.



I'm open to hear your theories on how this move in any way helped anyone BUT "the little guy"...



> BS!! All the 2021 reservations I'm making now are made inside 60 days of check-in. If they are available at 60 days, the Facebook people can't be looking very hard.



I'd be curious as to where you have reservations at... I know it's not weeks and probably not at in-demand resorts. It's likely tues-thurs at places like the glade or other really low demand location

I had 3 bookings made months ago that I had been sniping to try to re-book inside 60 days and no luck on all 3.


----------



## bnoble

paxsarah said:


> These are owners who own points that are in circulation and with the right to use them. Do you expect these owners to simply let their points expire, unused? Because that's the only way that true availability will open up.


There could be a more nuanced way to look at this.

There is a natural expiration rate of points each year--owners who, for whatever reason, neither use, deposit, nor forward them. Given enough time, the backlog of points will work its way out of the system through this natural attrition. In the meantime, the rest of us will have to resort to some combination of use/deposit/forward---and while we are doing that, availability will be tight.

In the meantime, "encouraging" landlords to move their points forward into the next year or two in favor of owner use maybe isn't what I would have done, but I can see why someone might have done it.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> I get it completely, but I do try to understand that many of these renters are there because salesmen laid out for them how they could exploit the Wyndham system to pay for maintenance fees and even make a profit.  So they bought, and bought, and bought, and then Wyndham started slowly closing the spigot on them.  Yes it is in club charter and contract terms that ownership is not for commercial purposes, but then you have a salesman walking you through how to do it and you go home and do it and it works.


The policy is not intended to eliminate renters or mega-renting.  A very few resorts are affected for a very few timeframes during the year.  There are still ample opportunities for anyone to book and rent reservations to cover their maintenance fees.

All the scare tactics (by renters) and debunked Extra Holidays conspiracy theories are a tempest in a teapot.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I am hoping that this is temporary and because people are traveling more with Covid and saved points to this year maybe have become tough for some owners to use.  So this is maybe how Wyndham is handling things.  Maybe.  May just be wishful thinking on my part because we have owned since 2007, and this seems so drastic.  

BocaBum99 was so much smarter than me.  I just want to say that.  What has happened to him?


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> These are owners who own points that are in circulation and with the right to use them. Do you expect these owners to simply let their points expire, unused? Because that's the only way that true availability will open up.


You must have missed this part of the email or missed the meaning:

"To help you cross different destinations off your bucket list, we are continuing our efforts to prioritize owner reservations by limiting access by non-owners at select resorts during peak travel times. Since we began these efforts in March, we’ve heard feedback from many owners that you’ve been able to achieve your vacation plans and visit many popular destinations during your desired travel times — and that you’d like to see these options expanded even further. "

Sure the same points will be used oveall, but the policy is pushing out non-owners to make way for owners to use their points to reserve these reservations and stay in the units -- you know, like a vacation Club instead of a rental business.

"True availability" will not change, but "_owner availability_ for personal use instead of non-owner use" at some of the most sought-after resorts during the most sought-after times  definitely did change in favor of owners wanting to take their families on a primo vacation.


----------



## CO skier

chapjim said:


> Powerful arguments can be made that Wyndham is not looking out for the "little guy" with its latest move.


As a result of this latest move, there are going to be a lot of "little guys" who will be enjoying a Bonnet Creek, or Colorado Christmas skiing, or other high demand vacation this year that they paid for as a Club Wyndham owner in units previously reserved for rental to yet-to-be-named non-owners.


----------



## CO skier

One result of this restricted use policy that no one has posted, is that it eliminates the all-to-common complaint of (for example), "I wanted to use my points to reserve Bonnet Creek for New Years, but there is no availability on the Club Wyndham website, yet there is availability through AirBnB, VRBO, Redweek, etc.  Why am I paying maintenance dues and then have to pay someone to stay in the Club Wyndham resort where I want to stay?"

That is a very good question.

There will still be a few rentals advertised for the restricted resorts and times, but only until the uninformed landlords get burned by the cancellation when the guest name is added.


----------



## dioxide45

CO skier said:


> One result of this restricted use policy that no one has posted, is that it eliminates the all-to-common complaint of (for example), "I wanted to use my points to reserve Bonnet Creek for New Years, but there is no availability on the Club Wyndham website, yet there is availability through AirBnB, VRBO, Redweek, etc.  Why am I paying maintenance dues and then have to pay someone to stay in the Club Wyndham resort where I want to stay?"
> 
> That is a very good question.
> 
> There will still be a few rentals advertised for the restricted resorts and times, but only until the uninformed landlords get burned by the cancellation when the guest name is added.


It sounds like owners renting out a reservation can still add two guest certificates a year to restricted dates. So I would suspect they will pick the highest demand dates to do so. Will that be Christmas and New Years at WBC?


----------



## CO skier

dioxide45 said:


> It sounds like owners renting out a reservation can still add two guest certificates a year to restricted dates. So I would suspect they will pick the highest demand dates to do so. Will that be Christmas and New Years at WBC?


And the megarenter will have to cancel the other eight unnamed guest reservations at WBC that will return to inventory.  And the megarenter will have to cancel ALL of the other speculative rentals at the resorts and dates listed.

And think about if this policy continues next year how many speculative reservations will not be made by the megarenters because they will have only two Guest Confirmations available.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> And the megarenter will have to cancel the other eight unnamed guest reservations at WBC that will return to inventory.  And the megarenter will have to cancel ALL of the other speculative rentals at the resorts and dates listed.
> 
> And think about if this policy continues next year how many speculative reservations will not be made by the megarenters because they will have only two Guest Confirmations available.


Surely a win for the owner looking to book for personal use. Back to my original question how many owners will be tapping out because of the limiting of GC"s? I suspect these policies are here to stay. In one form or another.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Surely a win for the owner looking to book for personal use. Back to my original question how many owners will be tapping out because of the limiting of GC"s? I suspect these policies are here to stay. In one form or another.


Few, if any, because the affected reservations are so few, relative to the Club Wyndham universe.  This restricted access program would have to be greatly, and I mean GREATLY extended (like restricting all resorts during the summer), for any renters to "tap out" of their business as a result, or any "little renter" to not rent to recover at least some of their maintenance fees.

Even then it would be little compared to the abusers who were booted out of the Club; or renters who self-eliminated out of the Club, as a result of the introduction of automatic upgrades.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> Few, if any, because the affected reservations are so few, relative to the Club Wyndham universe.  This restricted access program would have to be greatly, and I mean GREATLY extended (like restricting all resorts during the summer), for any renters to "tap out" of their business as a result, or any "little renter" to not rent to recover at least some of their maintenance fees.
> 
> Even then it would be little compared to the abusers who were booted out of the Club; or renters who self-eliminated out of the Club, as a result of the introduction of automatic upgrades.


I do believe the free upgrades can be profitable but with the added restrictions and the online web issues it has probably been a real headache for the rental gamers. I guess it will all come out in the wash eventually. As long as sales keeps selling the strategy of buying more points to pay maintenance fees there will always be a opportunity to rent for less.


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> I'm usually pretty cynical when it comes to "mega corp making changes that don't pass the smell test", but in this case, it's pretty obvious they are doing it to let owners get units at high demand locations. It was proven already that none of the inventory is going into extra vacations or to RCI... which was one of the conspiracy theories floated by the likes of our resident Curmudgeon...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm open to hear your theories on how this move in any way helped anyone BUT "the little guy"...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be curious as to where you have reservations at... I know it's not weeks and probably not at in-demand resorts. It's likely tues-thurs at places like the glade or other really low demand location
> 
> I had 3 bookings made months ago that I had been sniping to try to re-book inside 60 days and no luck on all 3.



Theory:  If renters become discouraged and decide to divest some or all of their ownership through Ovations, Wyndham is a big winner.  Way bigger than any purported benefit to the "little guy."  Only the naive can discount this as a possible motivation for the restrictions, with the "little guy" a secondary beneficiary.

Current open reservations:  Cypress  Palms (2), Star Island (2), Santa Barbara, Skyline Tower, Patriots' Place, Austin.  None less than a full week.  No Fairfield Glade.  Biggest reason I don't have more reservations is that I'm running out of points for 2021 (135K remaining).  Any reservations that meet the time and price requirements are on LMR.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Theory:  If renters become discouraged and decide to divest some or all of their ownership through Ovations, Wyndham is a big winner.  Way bigger than any purported benefit to the "little guy."  Only the naive can discount this as a possible motivation for the restrictions, with the "little guy" a secondary beneficiary.


My thoughts exactly. Ovations is the gift that keeps giving. You forgot to add most of your reservations are 2 bedrooms or presidential units at less then $115 per day. No way I can own cheaper then renting at these prices! Then again what do I know owning Canterbury at a $3.70/1000?








						Wyndham National Harbor, 2BR Presidential, July 17-24
					

$800  Floor plan may be different.  PM me, please!




					tugbbs.com


----------



## chapjim

dioxide45 said:


> It sounds like owners renting out a reservation can still add two guest certificates a year to restricted dates. So I would suspect they will pick the highest demand dates to do so. Will that be Christmas and New Years at WBC?



Since I don't know what the highest demand dates are, I'll go with known high demand dates and the reservations during those dates that required the most points.  Probably 4BR Presidential units at Bonnet Creek during Spring Break (weeks before and after Easter).  I have more than two of those so I'll keep two and cancel the rest.  I don't know yet which two I'll keep so for the time, I'll keep them all.

Since the supply of 4BR Presidential units for non-owners at Bonnet Creek during Spring Break will go down, I would expect to be able to raise the price of the two units I rent.  Plus, Easter in 2022 is not in Prime season so my cost in points is less than in a lot of years.


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> There will still be a few rentals advertised for the restricted resorts and times, but only until the uninformed landlords get burned by the cancellation when the guest name is added.


Or if it's one of that owner's two unaccompanied guest reservations. But there's really no way for a renter to confirm that they're okay vs. subject to cancellation.


----------



## paxsarah

dioxide45 said:


> Will that be Christmas and New Years at WBC?


If it were me I'd do Thanksgiving at WBC, because I'd guess the demand among renters is almost as high but the points are way lower.


----------



## Cyrus24

CO skier said:


> And the megarenter will have to cancel the other eight unnamed guest reservations at WBC that will return to inventory.  And the megarenter will have to cancel ALL of the other speculative rentals at the resorts and dates listed.
> 
> And think about if this policy continues next year how many speculative reservations will not be made by the megarenters because they will have only two Guest Confirmations available.


Do you think for one minute that the mega renter won't book an overlapping reservation in their name to get past the limit of 2  GC's?  I don't.  These people know how to work the system and how to make the money they need to make.  I don't defend what they do, in fact I hate what they do, but, they are savvy and they will still be sucking down coveted dates at coveted resorts.  If Wyndham wants to shut down mega renters due to membership violations, that need to shut down mega renters and quit changing rules that, at the end of the day, help no one.


----------



## Cyrus24

chapjim said:


> Since I don't know what the highest demand dates are, I'll go with known high demand dates and the reservations during those dates that required the most points. Probably 4BR Presidential units at Bonnet Creek during Spring Break (weeks before and after Easter). I have more than two of those so I'll keep two and cancel the rest. I don't know yet which two I'll keep so for the time, I'll keep them all.


Why would you cancel any of the 4br's?  Just do an overlapping 1br for your personal use and spread that cost across the rentals you are working.  Work from WBC for a few days over Easter.  You are showing us exactly how to work the system.  I don't like it, but, I have to applaud your willingness to show us exactly how stupid this new Wyndham rule is.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I suspect these policies are here to stay. In one form or another.


I'm hoping the policy is here to stay. I have family on my deeds that can now travel to the nicer places during the nicer times of the year instead going places just to burn up points. I was thinking about dumping some points, but now, if this change is here to stay, my ownership just became more valuable to me.


----------



## chapjim

I would like to see some reports of successful uses of the overlapping 1BR tactic before I rent weeks for a few thousand each.  I don't want to put at risk family vacations and I hate to refund money!

I'll be retired by then and can stay for however long it takes.  In fact, I'm going to see if I can book a small unit for April 9-23 or, to just get enough to overlap with both weeks --
April 15-17.

Edit:  Done!  Booked the full two weeks -- April 9-23.  We haven't been to Bonnet Creek for a few years.  It'll be fun!


----------



## rickandcindy23

CO skier said:


> One result of this restricted use policy that no one has posted, is that it eliminates the all-to-common complaint of (for example), "I wanted to use my points to reserve Bonnet Creek for New Years, but there is no availability on the Club Wyndham website, yet there is availability through AirBnB, VRBO, Redweek, etc.  Why am I paying maintenance dues and then have to pay someone to stay in the Club Wyndham resort where I want to stay?"
> 
> That is a very good question.
> 
> There will still be a few rentals advertised for the restricted resorts and times, but only until the uninformed landlords get burned by the cancellation when the guest name is added.


We have never been able to get holiday weeks, except maybe Thanksgiving.  Christmas and New Year's week are always gone before we get on the computer.  So you have exactly the same opportunity that mega renters have of getting holiday weeks at a year out.  Great competition for those.  We don't have as many points as some do (I know one person who owns 60,000,000 points).   That would be terrifying for us to own that many points.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> We have never been able to get holiday weeks, except maybe Thanksgiving.  Christmas and New Year's week are always gone before we get on the computer.  So you have exactly the same opportunity that mega renters have of getting holiday weeks at a year out.  Great competition for those.  We don't have as many points as some do (I know one person who owns 60,000,000 points).   That would be terrifying for us to own that many points.


Also very panful once a month. I couldn't imagine the pain they went through during the COVID shut down last year.


----------



## 55plus

rickandcindy23 said:


> We don't have as many points as some do (I know one person who owns 60,000,000 points).


Sixty million points? Holy crap! I have 2 million points and thought that was a lot. I was going to dump my non developer points and just keep my VIP Platinum points because of past nonavailability. We mainly travel/snowbird to Florida for  the winter. Now, if the change stays in effect we'll be able to travel year round to nicer places, not just to the "leftover" locations. It's the mega owners/renters that prevent other owners from traveling to the nicer places during nicer timeframes. I think Wyndham got it right this time.


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> Sixty million points? Holy crap! I have 2 million points and thought that was a lot. I was going to dump my non developer points and just keep my VIP Platinum points because of past nonavailability. We mainly travel/snowbird to Florida for  the winter. Now, if the change stays in effect we'll be able to travel year round to nicer places, not just to the "leftover" locations. It's the mega owners/renters that prevent other owners from traveling to the nicer places during nicer timeframes. I think Wyndham got it right this time.


Inventory is there for you to grab, just as it is for everyone else.  You have the same discount we do as platinum.  Although we are also founders/ platinum.  I don't get what you are saying.  You just have to spend some time at it.  I don't see that changing because 550,000 members are booking their own vacations.  

I don't have to spend the time because our daughter does it for us.  I wouldn't be able to do it myself.  So maybe you are like me and don't really like being on the Wyndham site constantly.  It's not a game I enjoy, that constant watching and maybe catching of the good stuff.  I would rather go fishing in a river or a lake.  Our daughter sends me a list of things she needs to book but when I look, which is a few times a day, I never see anything she needs.  And she doesn't rent Bonnet Creek much at all.  Great competition for those units, and all of the competition isn't coming from the mega renters.  

Do you use all of your points, or do you rent some reservations?  Just wondering because that is a lot of points.  I remember thinking that 1,000,000 points would be enough to live in small units all year long with our discounts.  I figured it out before we started any kind of business.  But making that work would be a lot of planning.  I like my house.  I don't want to live in timeshare, but 16 weeks of vacation have been fun the last six years that Rick has been retired.  We will have more like 20 weeks by the end of this year.  I had Wyndham points I had to transfer to RCI after Covid.  3,000,000+ points transferred after being unable to use them.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Sixty million points? Holy crap! I have 2 million points and thought that was a lot. I was going to dump my non developer points and just keep my VIP Platinum points because of past nonavailability. We mainly travel/snowbird to Florida for  the winter. Now, if the change stays in effect we'll be able to travel year round to nicer places, not just to the "leftover" locations. It's the mega owners/renters that prevent other owners from traveling to the nicer places during nicer timeframes. I think Wyndham got it right this time.



Frankly, I don't see why you would have a problem booking a holiday at any resort that you can ARP into.  If you want to ARP into a resort where you don't own, hop on ebay and pick up a contract.

It's just my wife and me on the account so I can only book two reservations at a time.  It's not like I'm wiping out a resort.  I don't think I qualify as a reviled "megarenter" but even if I am, I don't think I'm part of your problem.


----------



## 55plus

We live six months a year during the winter months at Wyndham Resorts in Daytona Beach and Destin, with an occasional week or two in Clearwater if I can pick up a cancellation, all at half points. This was my plan when I bought in at the beginning almost 30 years ago. It's family who want the other locations where you have to book at least 10 months out to get in. Planning 10 months out is not practical for some due to work, etc. When I do look there isn't availability on Wyndham's website, but there is on Extra Holidays, Craigslist, etc. I believe owners' personal usages should come first. And I have rented to others when plans change within the 15 day points refund timeframe. I'll rent to offset the lost points.


----------



## ilya

Not too long ago, few months back , I did see a lot of inventory for the end of summer and about a month ago for  Holiday times... Now after this change all the holiday times I was looking at  are gone... If I really wanted them I could have booked it, 5-6 months out..

Two months ago a person I know went to an update and was convinced to spend $$$ on a new contract to lower maintenance fees... They were already Reserve with 1.7 mill points... The sales pitch was "you can bring your cats" and then gave him the number of a points manager for him to rent the points..  Got home gave 1 mill points to the points manager  for $9 /1000. Not really smart to spend an extra $40,000 plus to get  more Reserve points to only get $9,000..

So they are still at the game of renting..

If owners can't book then why is Wyndham promoting specials .. Seems like they have extra inventory they need to get rid off.


----------



## 55plus

Screenshot of reply from Michael Brown, Wyndham CEO, to my email, subject line: Wyndham got it right this time!


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Screenshot of reply from Michael Brown, Wyndham CEO, to my email, subject line: Wyndham got it right this time!
> 
> View attachment 36900


Nice! So they do have a plan on helping owners rent personal vacations.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> We live six months a year during the winter months at Wyndham Resorts in Daytona Beach and Destin, with an occasional week or two in Clearwater if I can pick up a cancellation, all at half points. This was my plan when I bought in at the beginning almost 30 years ago. It's family who want the other locations where you have to book at least 10 months out to get in. Planning 10 months out is not practical for some due to work, etc. When I do look there isn't availability on Wyndham's website, but there is on Extra Holidays, Craigslist, etc. I believe owners' personal usages should come first. And I have rented to others when plans change within the 15 day points refund timeframe. I'll rent to offset the lost points.


I personally never have a problem booking a 1 bedroom in the 60 day window. It helps to be flexible with the travel plans and own at Wyndham and Worldmark. This spring I had a trip to Scottsdale planned but the COVID infection rate there was the highest in the world at the time we were planning on going. So I canceled the Scottsdale trip and booked Pompano beach within 17 days of traveling. We had a great time in Pompano and ended up booking Scottsdale about 5-6 weeks later to catch a Indians spring training game at Salt River field at talking stick. The stadium is about 1 mile walk from Scottsdale Worldmark and saved me about a hours drive to the Indians spring training facility in Goodyear AZ. The best thing about Worldmark is the wait list feature. No sitting around and waiting or checking 100 times daily for availability. It would be nice if Wyndham would have a waitlist feature. Like the sniping feature on ebay I am surprised that there is no software to book these last minute deals. 
https://saltriverfields.com/


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> Screenshot of reply from Michael Brown, Wyndham CEO, to my email, subject line: Wyndham got it right this time!
> 
> View attachment 36900


Oh, good!  I know I am just so grateful that Michael Brown, a billionaire that makes his money off of owners, agrees that we need to no longer have guests at the resorts, just owners.  That is not how they sold it in 2007 and 2008.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I am surprised that there is no software to book these last minute deals.
> https://saltriverfields.com/


I love tacos. If tacos were a vegetable they would be my favorite vegetable.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> Oh, good! I know I am just so grateful that Michael Brown, a billionaire that makes his money off of owners, agrees that we need to no longer have guests at the resorts, just owners. That is not how they sold it in 2007 and 2008.



While Michael Dean Brown certainly isn’t hurting for money, he’s certainly nowhere close to the billionaire club from what I can see, not even remotely close in point of fact.






						Compensation Information for Michael D. Brown, President and Chief Executive Officer of TRAVEL PLUS LEISURE CO | Salary.com
					

Salary, bonuses, stock options, stock awards and other compensation for Michael D. Brown, President and Chief Executive Officer at TRAVEL PLUS LEISURE CO. How much did Michael D. Brown make as President and Chief Executive Officer of TRAVEL PLUS LEISURE CO in  2021



					www1.salary.com
				












						Michael Brown Net Worth (2023) – wallmine.com
					

Michael has made over <b>6 trades</b> of the Wyndham Destinations Inc stock since 2018, according to the Form 4 filled with the SEC. Most recently he bought <b>4,500 units of WYND stock worth $122,760 on 31 July 2020</b>.




					wallmine.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## troy12n

chapjim said:


> Theory:  If renters become discouraged and decide to divest some or all of their ownership through Ovations, Wyndham is a big winner.  Way bigger than any purported benefit to the "little guy."  Only the naive can discount this as a possible motivation for the restrictions, with the "little guy" a secondary beneficiary.



IF that happens... why do any of us care? You specifically mentioned helping the little guy. If a mega renter exits, and Wyndham gets points back to re-sell to some new buyer that does not affect you or me negatively one bit. If anything, it helps us likely by not having to compete with someone who knows how to most efficiently get units, owns 10,000,000 points and is making multi-week reservations at the high demand resorts and then hawking them online. The average CWA buyer Wyndham is selling units to owns less than 200k points and maybe takes one vacation a year in the system. I would rather compete with these type owners...



> Current open reservations:  Cypress  Palms (2), Star Island (2), Santa Barbara, Skyline Tower, Patriots' Place, Austin.  None less than a full week.  No Fairfield Glade.  Biggest reason I don't have more reservations is that I'm running out of points for 2021 (135K remaining).  Any reservations that meet the time and price requirements are on LMR.



Thanks. The Orlando resorts and Patriots Place are usually not hard to get reservations at, i'm not sure about Santa Barbara and Skyline Tower.


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> IF that happens... why do any of us care? You specifically mentioned helping the little guy. If a mega renter exits, and Wyndham gets points back to re-sell to some new buyer that does not affect you or me negatively one bit. If anything, it helps us likely by not having to compete with someone who knows how to most efficiently get units, owns 10,000,000 points and is making multi-week reservations at the high demand resorts and then hawking them online. The average CWA buyer Wyndham is selling units to owns less than 200k points and maybe takes one vacation a year in the system. I would rather compete with these type owners...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. The Orlando resorts and Patriots Place are usually not hard to get reservations at, i'm not sure about Santa Barbara and Skyline Tower.



You said, "I'm open to hear your theories on how this move in any way helped anyone BUT "the little guy."  I showed you how one other entity stands to benefit "hugely." 

Since Wyndham management is supposed to increase value to its stockholders and has no such duty to "little guys," one could infer that corporate profits were the primary motivation for Wyndham's actions.  How convenient that they had the "little guy" around so they could spin the move.

I know you don't care.  I know others do.  But, that's a different matter than who stands to benefit.

You're right about Star Island and Cypress Palms, both perfectly nice resorts.  (I'm going to check one of them out next week.)  Traditionally, they have been slower to fill than Bonnet Creek.  When people start realizing Bonnet Creek is not available except to owners, I suspect demand for Star Island and Cypress Palms will increase.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> IF that happens... why do any of us care? You specifically mentioned helping the little guy. If a mega renter exits, and Wyndham gets points back to re-sell to some new buyer that does not affect you or me negatively one bit. If anything, it helps us likely by not having to compete with someone who knows how to most efficiently get units, owns 10,000,000 points and is making multi-week reservations at the high demand resorts and then hawking them online. The average CWA buyer Wyndham is selling units to owns less than 200k points and maybe takes one vacation a year in the system. I would rather compete with these type owners...


Sounds a little selfish. What @chapjim was saying its really not to help the little guy. Ovations is touted as a way to help owners from being taken advantage of from the exit teams. In reality it is probably why we have no new resorts and is one of the most profitable ways to receive inventory. Free inventory to sell at $150//1000 to start a new cycle over and over again.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> The policy is not intended to eliminate renters or mega-renting.  A very few resorts are affected for a very few timeframes during the year.  There are still ample opportunities for anyone to book and rent reservations to cover their maintenance fees.
> 
> All the scare tactics (by renters) and debunked Extra Holidays conspiracy theories are a tempest in a teapot.



Fifty-three resorts are on the restricted list, not "a very few."  At least eight holiday or event periods are affected.  For some resorts, every weekend July-October is restricted.  For sure there are lots of open periods at other resorts but it is not accurate to say very few timeframes are affected.


----------



## ilya

chapjim said:


> Fifty-three resorts are on the restricted list, not a very few.  At least eight holiday or event periods are affected.  For some resorts, every weekend July-October is restricted.  For sure there are lots of open periods at other resorts but it is not accurate to say very few timeframes are affected.




I would also say this may help the all  resale points owners.. More inventory for them while only paying pennies for their contract...


----------



## dgalati

ilya said:


> I would also say this may help the all  resale points owners.. More inventory for them while only paying pennies for their contract...


I agree. Its a win - win for my travel needs. Book my own points at 13 months. In the 60 day window look for a VIP to rent for less then my costs. Cancel my reservation and hope for a free room upgrade. Problem is to many owners have more points then they can use which leads to discounted rentals. But what do I know owning at Canterbury for only $3.70/1000


----------



## Cyrus24

Not changing the subject, merely sharing an observation.  There are *NO* WBC rooms available in Extra Holidays on blackout dates.  I noticed this a couple days ago and checked again tonight.  Perhaps Wyndham is following the same rules that the rest of us are being told to follow.  NO GUESTS at certain resorts on certain dates.  If this remains the case, KUDOS to Wyndham, they are sucking up lost rental revenue just like they expect members with extra points to suck it up.  Has Wyndham been cancelling contracts with owners on EH listings?


----------



## SueDonJ

_[*Moderator Note*: A number of posts in this thread have been reported by multiple TUGgers. The TUG Rules include a "Be Courteous" section if you need a refresher. I've deleted the reported posts but expect that this forum's moderator will be taking a closer look. Please, get back on track or you risk getting this thread locked.] <-- SueDonJ_


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> Not changing the subject, merely sharing an observation.  There are *NO* WBC rooms available in Extra Holidays on blackout dates.  I noticed this a couple days ago and checked again tonight.  Perhaps Wyndham is following the same rules that the rest of us are being told to follow.  NO GUESTS at certain resorts on certain dates.  If this remains the case, KUDOS to Wyndham, they are sucking up lost rental revenue just like they expect members with extra points to suck it up.  Has Wyndham been cancelling contracts with owners on EH listings?


The only thing Wyndham is sucking up is free inventory from Ovations.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I love tacos. If tacos were a vegetable they would be my favorite vegetable.


The following weekend is the balloon festival. Great area to visit. Unfortunately Wyndham owners have no availability at this Worldmark resort.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Perhaps Wyndham can implement a waitlist process.  I thought they talked about that.  They could allow one or two per member, something like that, and if someone cancels something you want, you might get it.  

Disney and WorldMark both have a waitlist capability.  You can only have one with Disney, not sure about WorldMark.  

I think we have more than one Wyndham employee on TUG that might see this suggestion.  

Our daughter gets almost everything within 60 days for the discount.  She rarely, if ever, pays full points for anything.  The inventory was there for you all as well.  I don't get the animosity toward "mega renters."  We do not own 60 million points as some do.  I think that would be a very scary amount of MF's, which is why I know of one couple who bailed on their multiple platinum accounts.  They bailed because they were saving themselves from this debacle we are seeing right now.  They saw it all happening.  They are friends of ours.  When Voyager hit, they got out of the game.  

I suppose other resort systems have the same issues.  Like Marriott, for example.  Everyone wants Hawaii, so let's say there is a shortage of Hawaii, especially oceanfront views.  So there could be some people who complain about that.  And then they see Hawaii on II, too, and they are bitter because why is that inventory on II (well some owners aren't DC and deposit separately, maybe).  What if a lot more people that own DC want Hawaii during whale season/spring break/ summer break/ holidays but not everyone can get it.  But if you buy in Hawaii, you don't have to worry about it, you get priority for Hawaii.  If you don't grab that Hawaii inventory during your window of opportunity, you are with everyone else and have to keep watching for cancellations.  

Same with Wyndham.  You get priority into your home resorts.  We own a lot of home resorts in our ownership, like Kingsgate, Branson Meadows, Bali Hai, Shearwater...  So we can book those ahead of others.  But if we want to wait for the 60-day window to get the discount promised at the sales' table, then we take our chances, right?  That's no different from Marriott, except there are no discounts with Marriott.  

I am learning all about Marriott for a purchase soon.  So I am just thinking ahead on it.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> Perhaps Wyndham can implement a waitlist process. I thought they talked about that. They could allow one or two per member, something like that, and if someone cancels something you want, you might get it.
> 
> Disney and WorldMark both have a waitlist capability. You can only have one with Disney, not sure about WorldMark.
> 
> I think we have more than one Wyndham employee on TUG that might see this suggestion.



We’ve had this on our tracking sheet as an enhancement request since last year - to offer an “ongoing search” capability similar to what’s available via RCI.  IMHO it would be a big win for owners especially when looking for inventory at popular resorts during prime/high seasons.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> ... Same with Wyndham.  You get priority into your home resorts.  We own a lot of home resorts in our ownership, like Kingsgate, Branson Meadows, Bali Hai, Shearwater...  So we can book those ahead of others.  But if we want to wait for the 60-day window to get the discount promised at the sales' table, then we take our chances, right?  That's no different from Marriott, except there are no discounts with Marriott.
> 
> I am learning all about Marriott for a purchase soon.  So I am just thinking ahead on it.



FYI, Marriott's Destination Club points system does have discounts, based on membership status. For Presidential and Chairman's Club members it's 30% at the 60-day window, for Executive members it's 25% at the 30-day window.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> We’ve had this on our tracking sheet as an enhancement request since last year - to offer an “ongoing search” capability similar to what’s available via RCI.  IMHO it would be a big win for owners especially when looking for inventory at popular resorts during prime/high seasons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It was supposed to be part of the Voyager rollout IIRC from threads here, I guess they couldn't make it work.

It would pretty much be the last nail in the coffin of book-cancel-rebook and book-book-cancel-cancel-rebook-upgrade.


----------



## pedro47

Sound liked Wyndham will not be advertising timeshare holidays weeks and  weekends to non  Wyndham owners. LOL.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> Perhaps Wyndham can implement a waitlist process.  I thought they talked about that.  They could allow one or two per member, something like that, and if someone cancels something you want, you might get it.
> 
> Disney and WorldMark both have a waitlist capability.  You can only have one with Disney, not sure about WorldMark.
> 
> I think we have more than one Wyndham employee on TUG that might see this suggestion.
> 
> Our daughter gets almost everything within 60 days for the discount.  She rarely, if ever, pays full points for anything.  The inventory was there for you all as well.  I don't get the animosity toward "mega renters."  We do not own 60 million points as some do.  I think that would be a very scary amount of MF's, which is why I know of one couple who bailed on their multiple platinum accounts.  They bailed because they were saving themselves from this debacle we are seeing right now.  They saw it all happening.  They are friends of ours.  When Voyager hit, they got out of the game.
> 
> I suppose other resort systems have the same issues.  Like Marriott, for example.  Everyone wants Hawaii, so let's say there is a shortage of Hawaii, especially oceanfront views.  So there could be some people who complain about that.  And then they see Hawaii on II, too, and they are bitter because why is that inventory on II (well some owners aren't DC and deposit separately, maybe).  What if a lot more people that own DC want Hawaii during whale season/spring break/ summer break/ holidays but not everyone can get it.  But if you buy in Hawaii, you don't have to worry about it, you get priority for Hawaii.  If you don't grab that Hawaii inventory during your window of opportunity, you are with everyone else and have to keep watching for cancellations.
> 
> Same with Wyndham.  You get priority into your home resorts.  We own a lot of home resorts in our ownership, like Kingsgate, Branson Meadows, Bali Hai, Shearwater...  So we can book those ahead of others.  But if we want to wait for the 60-day window to get the discount promised at the sales' table, then we take our chances, right?  That's no different from Marriott, except there are no discounts with Marriott.
> 
> I am learning all about Marriott for a purchase soon.  So I am just thinking ahead on it.


The wait list feature for Worldmark is fantastic.


----------



## Captain Morgan

55plus said:


> Screenshot of reply from Michael Brown, Wyndham CEO, to my email, subject line: Wyndham got it right this time!
> 
> View attachment 36900


In Michael Browns reply he states, Our intention is to maximize our owners(possibility) to get on vacation. If Wyndham was so worried about Owners getting on vacation, why is Wyndham on a mass campaign to rent out every weekend and every major holiday through VRBO,/Expedia? Go do a search for all major holidays across the map and you will see Wyndham Resorts everywhere.  Wyndham has an agenda, use the pandemic as an excuse under the guise of helping owners vacation. By blacking out holiday dates they can grab all available inventory and control the market & price!


----------



## dgalati

Captain Morgan said:


> In Michael Browns reply he states, Our intention is to maximize our owners(possibility) to get on vacation. If Wyndham was so worried about Owners getting on vacation, why is Wyndham on a mass campaign to rent out every weekend and every major holiday through VRBO,/Expedia? Go do a search for all major holidays across the map and you will see Wyndham Resorts everywhere.  Wyndham has an agenda, use the pandemic as an excuse under the guise of helping owners vacation. By blacking out holiday dates they can grab all available inventory and control the market & price!


They do have a responsibility to maximize shareholders value.


----------



## Jae1242

Just called VC to get clarity on the new rules, and the recording said they are closed for 90 min company meeting.  I guess they want to get everyone on the same page with how this is suppose to work (I hope!)


----------



## 9969hi

I have a problem with these restrictions, I feel if you buy at a specific resort you own that right to stay there OR rent the reservation out if you do not want to use it that year, that should be your right as an owner. 
I am a landlord who have several tenants who are not paying rent due to rental mortatorium , I cannot evict them. 
I feel this restriction policy is a loss of a right as an owner of the property, if you are using points from another resort to make the reservation , maybe that's a different story, maybe wyndham owners should have priority over large owners.


----------



## 55plus

Captain Morgan said:


> In Michael Browns reply he states, Our intention is to maximize our owners(possibility) to get on vacation. If Wyndham was so worried about Owners getting on vacation, why is Wyndham on a mass campaign to rent out every weekend and every major holiday through VRBO,/Expedia? Go do a search for all major holidays across the map and you will see Wyndham Resorts everywhere.  Wyndham has an agenda, use the pandemic as an excuse under the guise of helping owners vacation. By blacking out holiday dates they can grab all available inventory and control the market & price!


I recently checked Extra Holidays for rentals during the restricted timeframes and found no rentals at the subject resorts during the restricted timeframes. As for the other rental sites that Wyndham doesn't control, there may be rentals, but they are most likely from owners who are not aware of the restrictions. If Wyndham does rent during the restricted timeframe, which I don't think they will, owners might have a claim for damages through a class action.


----------



## 55plus

9969hi said:


> I have a problem with these restrictions, I feel if you buy at a specific resort you own that right to stay there OR rent the reservation out if you do not want to use it that year, that should be your right as an owner.
> I feel this restriction policy is a loss of a right as an owner of the property, if you are using points from another resort to make the reservation , maybe that's a different story, maybe wyndham owners should have priority over large owners.


Points are points so owners who use their points for personal travel shouldn't fall second to owners who use their points as a commercial venture. I commend Wyndham for reserving reservations to owners for personal travel during these high demand timeframes at high demand locations. The Wyndham directory states, commercial ventured are not permitted. Rentals are commercial ventures. The reason Wyndham isn't enforcing it is, if they did Wyndham Extra Holidays couldn't legally exist. So far as of two days ago Extra Holidays hasn't listed anything at a restricted resort during the restricted timeframe.


----------



## dioxide45

9969hi said:


> I have a problem with these restrictions, I feel if you buy at a specific resort you own that right to stay there OR rent the reservation out if you do not want to use it that year, that should be your right as an owner.
> I am a landlord who have several tenants who are not paying rent due to rental mortatorium , I cannot evict them.
> I feel this restriction policy is a loss of a right as an owner of the property, if you are using points from another resort to make the reservation , maybe that's a different story, maybe wyndham owners should have priority over large owners.


Do any of these restrictions apply if you book your home resort during the home resort priority period?


----------



## chapjim

ilya said:


> I would also say this may help the all  resale points owners.. More inventory for them while only paying pennies for their contract...



Dare we call them "little guys?"  At least some of them -- the ones with a single contract for 200K-300K points.


----------



## 55plus

dioxide45 said:


> Do any of these restrictions apply if you book your home resort during the home resort priority period?


In the past I’ve tried to book at two of my home resorts at 13 months out to no avail. Ocean Walk for Bike Week and Daytona 500, and Old Town Alexandra for Presidential Inaugurations. Granted, some one bedrooms were available. If I wanted a two bedroom or larger I’d have to rent it from an owner. I’m retire so I can plan 13 months out. I’m sure the majority of owners work and can’t plan that far out, whereas renters can plan rentals and do book prime time at prime locations 13 months out to use as a commercial venture leaving the leftover units for owners who work, if there are any left. It’s not right for an owner to have to rent at a home resort when other owners are renting out units there, or at any resort for that matter. Personal travel/usage should come before commercial venture. Ya, I know sales weasels talked about renting to off set costs, but if you actually read the contract you signed, it states something about anything said or promised is moot if not spelled out in the contract. I’m lobbying Wyndham for the restrictions to become permanent, with maybe some tweaking and some additional resorts/timeframes added.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> In the past I’ve tried to book at two of my home resorts at 13 months out to no avail. Ocean Walk for Bike Week and Daytona 500, and Old Town Alexandra for Presidential Inaugurations. Granted, some one bedrooms were available. If I wanted a two bedroom or larger I’d have to rent it from an owner. I’m retire so I can plan 13 months out. I’m sure the majority of owners work and can’t plan that far out, whereas renters can plan rentals and do book prime time at prime locations 13 months out to use as a commercial venture leaving the leftover units for owners who work, if there are any left. It’s not right for an owner to have to rent at a home resort when other owners are renting out units there, or at any resort for that matter. Personal travel/usage should come before commercial venture. Ya, I know sales weasels talked about renting to off set costs, but if you actually read the contract you signed, it states something about anything said or promised is moot if not spelled out in the contract. I’m lobbying Wyndham for the restrictions to become permanent, with maybe some tweaking and some additional resorts/timeframes added.



I've reserved Bike Week at Daytona for the last fifteen years or so.  Used to have to call when they opened the phone lines.  Now, you just have to stay up late (if you're in the east).


----------



## 55plus

ilya said:


> I would also say this may help the all  resale points owners.. More inventory for them while only paying pennies for their contract...


Points are points whether purchased from a developer or on the secondary market. The deeds are the same. The same goes for CWA. Purchasing directly from a developer may give you some additional perks/benefits, but priority to use as a commercial venture over owners’ personal travel/use isn’t one of them.


----------



## abeachbum

troy12n said:


> IF that happens... why do any of us care? You specifically mentioned helping the little guy. If a mega renter exits, and Wyndham gets points back to re-sell to some new buyer that does not affect you or me negatively one bit. If anything, it helps us likely by not having to compete with someone who knows how to most efficiently get units, owns 10,000,000 points and is making multi-week reservations at the high demand resorts and then hawking them online. The average CWA buyer Wyndham is selling units to owns less than 200k points and maybe takes one vacation a year in the system. I would rather compete with these type owners...



I've pondered these facts, related to availability by non owners and had to question... do mega renters really hurt things? Could it be possible they create a balance that benefits the system?  Always remember, no matter who owns the points they are going to be used. And the little guy wants the same reservations the mega renter does.

Get rid of the mega renter and the points go back to Wyndham. They sell those to multiple new owners.  Little guys. They buy 154K of those 10 millions points to take that one typical vacation per year. This creates nearly 65 new owners. Like the mega renter, they seek those desired dates. They are going after the same bookings as the mega renter was, and the rest of us are. Now we are competing against 65 others, instead of just 1 mega renter.  Get rid of another 60 million point mega renter, and you add over 450 more people chasing what you want. No, they are not all going for an identical time, but given there are 52 weeks in a year, and many of those are weeks no one is interested in... it does increase the competition. Here is where it is important: The mega renter can only book 1 unit at a time, just like anyone else. So it takes them time to book their rooms. This creates time for you and me to book what we want also. And there are limits / caps as to how much inventory they can book. At some point, they have to stop.  I guess the way I see it, I have a better chance competing against 1 person than having hundreds more out there. It may be different that what you think, but consider it. Think about it........


----------



## 55plus

But there is more than just one mega renter out there, and a lot of other renters are not what one would call a mega renter who also do rentals. The current restrictions benefit those who use their points for personal travel. It’s more fair to compete against those who use their points for personal use than those who use their points as a commercial venture. Allowing non owners to stay at resorts over those that actually own points who want that same reservation is just wrong. There are how many other resorts and timeframes that do not fall under the restriction? Those are still available to use as rentals.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> Allowing non owners to stay at resorts over those that actually own points who want that same reservation is just wrong.



While I can certainly respect your opinion, I cannot say it’s accurate or true. Each owner has the same access to the preferred inventory at 13 months for the home resort. I have found that when I make reservations at 13 months I get the rooms I want every time. Including two bedroom units and even three bedroom units at Ocean Walk. Of course, if I wait a few days they are gone. But I can’t blame the boogie  man (mega renter) for my ineptitude. 

Also, being an “owner” does include certain rights including allowing guests to stay in my stead. Restricting those rights to placate ones who don’t plan ahead is just wrong. 

Don’t forget - most guest reservations are NOT for rentals - they are for family and friends of the owner. So casting aspersions on the use of guest reservations is just wrong. 

And remember that Wyndham is driven by sales. And the best supply of new buyers is from our guests. Try as I may, I am not successful in telling family and friends to NOT take the timeshare tour. But still many take it. And sadly about 1/4 of those actually buy. And they never use it correctly (because they don’t stay up til midnight at 13 months to reserve a special week). But that illustrates the fact that Wyndham really does want our guests staying in our rooms. My guess is that their sell success rate is better with guests than it is with grizzled owners. 

Just my opinion. 

Wes.


----------



## paxsarah

abeachbum said:


> They are going after the same bookings as the mega renter was, and the rest of us are. Now we are competing against 65 others, instead of just 1 mega renter.


I remember Ron Parise mentioning that even with all of his rentals, he was only one man and he could only make one reservation at a time when ARP opened. Even if you assume that a megarenter is online at midnight making a reservation at 13 or 10 months (which the vast majority of the time they're probably not), they can only make one reservation at a time. You can beat them.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> While I can certainly respect your opinion, I cannot say it’s accurate or true. Each owner has the same access to the preferred inventory at 13 months for the home resort. I have found that when I make reservations at 13 months I get the rooms I want every time. Including two bedroom units and even three bedroom units at Ocean Walk. Of course, if I wait a few days they are gone. But I can’t blame the boogie  man (mega renter) for my ineptitude.
> 
> Also, being an “owner” does include certain rights including allowing guests to stay in my stead. Restricting those rights to placate ones who don’t plan ahead is just wrong.
> 
> Don’t forget - most guest reservations are NOT for rentals - they are for family and friends of the owner. So casting aspersions on the use of guest reservations is just wrong.
> 
> And remember that Wyndham is driven by sales. And the best supply of new buyers is from our guests. Try as I may, I am not successful in telling family and friends to NOT take the timeshare tour. But still many take it. And sadly about 1/4 of those actually buy. And they never use it correctly (because they don’t stay up til midnight at 13 months to reserve a special week). But that illustrates the fact that Wyndham really does want our guests staying in our rooms. My guess is that their sell success rate is better with guests than it is with grizzled owners.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Wes.


Do you think all owners are grizzled? Guests are their new revenue steam and most owners that have learned the system they could never sell to. Keep in mind Wyndham does put shareholders above what owners think. It also helps their bottom line.


----------



## 55plus

If I recall, you can make as many reservations at your home resort as long as you have the points for that resort. And, I don’t have a problem with owners‘ family and friends as guests, but if it is listed for rent online then it’s not for family and friends. It turns into a commercial venture when it’s listed for rent.


----------



## dgalati

abeachbum said:


> I've pondered these facts, related to availability by non owners and had to question... do mega renters really hurt things? Could it be possible they create a balance that benefits the system?  Always remember, no matter who owns the points they are going to be used. And the little guy wants the same reservations the mega renter does.
> 
> Get rid of the mega renter and the points go back to Wyndham. They sell those to multiple new owners.  Little guys. They buy 154K of those 10 millions points to take that one typical vacation per year. This creates nearly 65 new owners. Like the mega renter, they seek those desired dates. They are going after the same bookings as the mega renter was, and the rest of us are. Now we are competing against 65 others, instead of just 1 mega renter.  Get rid of another 60 million point mega renter, and you add over 450 more people chasing what you want. No, they are not all going for an identical time, but given there are 52 weeks in a year, and many of those are weeks no one is interested in... it does increase the competition. Here is where it is important: The mega renter can only book 1 unit at a time, just like anyone else. So it takes them time to book their rooms. This creates time for you and me to book what we want also. And there are limits / caps as to how much inventory they can book. At some point, they have to stop.  I guess the way I see it, I have a better chance competing against 1 person than having hundreds more out there. It may be different that what you think, but consider it. Think about it........


Yea but what about the mega renter that only bought 1 million developer points but has 5 million resale points that can be used with the VIP discounts and free upgrades. How much inventory could be created by eliminating the 50% discounts on resale points? To many VIP owners have abused this loophole to rent cheap reservations at the expense of owners looking to book for personal use. It also is competition for EH.


----------



## VacayKat

55plus said:


> I recently checked Extra Holidays for rentals during the restricted timeframes and found no rentals at the subject resorts during the restricted timeframes. As for the other rental sites that Wyndham doesn't control, there may be rentals, but they are most likely from owners who are not aware of the restrictions. If Wyndham does rent during the restricted timeframe, which I don't think they will, owners might have a claim for damages through a class action.


Extraholidays advertises their inventory on those external sites such as travelocity etc. if you see it there- it’s from Wyndham.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> I don’t have a problem with owners‘ family and friends as guests, but if it is listed for rent online then it’s not for family and friends. It turns into a commercial venture when it’s listed for rent.



But the current restrictions don’t differentiate between guest and renter. So please don’t hurt those of us who use our ownership as we see fit.


----------



## 55plus

VacayKat said:


> Extraholidays advertises their inventory on those external sites such as travelocity etc. if you see it there- it’s from Wyndham.


But if Wyndham has listing on these other websites during the restricted timeframes then Wyndham needs to be called out for it. Does Wyndham currently have rentals listed on these other sites during the restricted timeframe?


----------



## tschwa2

Does it seem like this change is aimed at knocking out Koala, the same as the last big change was aimed at points managers, basically at businesses that make their business to rent out owner inventory.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> Does it seem like this change is aimed at knocking out Koala, the same as the last big change was aimed at points managers, basically at businesses that make their business to rent out owner inventory.


This could be a angle to eliminate EH competition.


----------



## 55plus

wjappraise said:


> But the current restrictions don’t differentiate between guest and renter. So please don’t hurt those of us who use our ownership as we see fit.


Didn’t I read you can travel with guests twice during the restricted timeframe as long as an owner travels with them? That fixes that and provides a loophole to rent as long as an owner also has a reservation during that timeline. Instead of each renter eating up a block of reservation, more are open to owners’ use for personal travel. I guess it’s a win win for everyone - rental use and owner travel.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> Didn’t I read you can travel with guests twice during the restricted timeframe as long as an owner travels with them? That fixes that and provides a loophole to rent as long as an owner also has a reservation during that timeline. Instead of each renter eating up a block of reservation, more are open to owners’ use for personal travel. I guess it’s a win win for everyone - rental use and owner travel.



Ummm. I have friends going on a honeymoon. I have zero interest in accompanying them. They have less than zero interest in me accompanying them. 

Guests may travel with the owner. But often they don’t. 

No guest reservation restrictions will free up enough inventory to make up for delays from other owners who don’t make reservations early enough.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Didn’t I read you can travel with guests twice during the restricted timeframe as long as an owner travels with them? That fixes that and provides a loophole to rent as long as an owner also has a reservation during that timeline. Instead of each renter eating up a block of reservation, more are open to owners’ use for personal travel. I guess it’s a win win for everyone - rental use and owner travel.


They should put a penalty on this loophole if the owner doesn't show up for the reservation booked.


----------



## CO skier

abeachbum said:


> I've pondered these facts, related to availability by non owners and had to question... do mega renters really hurt things?


Yes, there really is no question about this.  Wyndham acknowledges this and is slowly grinding away at the problem.  Owners know it also, and are supporting Wyndham's efforts.  Other timeshare companies are also attacking the problem.



abeachbum said:


> Get rid of the mega renter and the points go back to Wyndham. They sell those to multiple new owners.  Little guys. They buy 154K of those 10 millions points to take that one typical vacation per year. This creates nearly 65 new owners. Like the mega renter, they seek those desired dates. They are going after the same bookings as the mega renter was, and the rest of us are. Now we are competing against 65 others, instead of just 1 mega renter.  Get rid of another 60 million point mega renter, and you add over 450 more people chasing what you want.


You can bet that most of those 60 million points are booked into premium reservations by the megarenter to maximize profits.  If the megarenter gets out of the business, how many of those 60 million points are sold to new owners who do not book premium reservations?  How many of those points are sold to new owners who do not plan ahead or cannot book ahead due to vacation scheduling at their work?  How many of those points will expire unused by the new owners?

troy12n is exactly right, and there are facts to back it up.

In WorldMark, where statistics are available to owners, only 6-7% of reservations are booked at 13 months.  I would much rather compete against 450 new owners who (statistically) will book 3.6-4.2 million points of premium reservations than 1 megarenter who is booking 60 million points of premium reservations.

Sure, other owners who do plan 13 months ahead will step-in to book the remaining 55.8-56.4 million points of premium reservations where _the competition has been reduced by the absence of the megarenter_.  The difference is that in the owner priority periods, most of those reservations will be booked for owners' personal usage and not commercial usage.


----------



## dioxide45

dgalati said:


> They should put a penalty on this loophole if the owner doesn't show up for the reservation booked.


Isn't there already a penalty in the lost points they had to use to book the overlapping stay?


----------



## r4rab

55plus said:


> Didn’t I read you can travel with guests twice during the restricted timeframe as long as an owner travels with them? That fixes that and provides a loophole to rent as long as an owner also has a reservation during that timeline. Instead of each renter eating up a block of reservation, more are open to owners’ use for personal travel. I guess it’s a win win for everyone - rental use and owner travel.


I read it that you can use as many guest reservations as often as you like if an owner is travelling with the guest. I also read it as twice a year you can use a GC during the restricted time at a restricted resort without the owner present.

This would seem to cover the various family trips & reunions (owner present, needing at least 1 day overlap) and still allow for a couple prime time rentals or gifts.


----------



## CO skier

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't there already a penalty in the lost points they had to use to book the overlapping stay?


The cost of the overlapping stay is more a nuisance tax than any kind of "penalty" if it protects more than a dozen guest rentals at a time.


----------



## ilya

55plus said:


> Points are points whether purchased from a developer or on the secondary market. The deeds are the same. The same goes for CWA. Purchasing directly from a developer may give you some additional perks/benefits, but priority to use as a commercial venture over owners’ personal travel/use isn’t one of them.




Exactly.. More availability for them since booking  is limited  for guests.  I am sure Wyndham doesn't want someone who paid  a few thousand dollars for a 1 mill contract to have the same benefits as someone who paid over $100,000... With all the chipping away of benefits  for those platinum owners its looking more like  they are treated the same..

If they really wanted to put a halt on renting for  guest they should train the sales people not to lie..


----------



## rickandcindy23

SueDonJ said:


> FYI, Marriott's Destination Club points system does have discounts, based on membership status. For Presidential and Chairman's Club members it's 30% at the 60-day window, for Executive members it's 25% at the 30-day window.


Whoa!  I didn't know that and am excited to find that out!  Thank you!


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> The wait list feature for Worldmark is fantastic.


Yes, it is.  It works very well.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> The cost of the overlapping stay is more a nuisance tax than any kind of "penalty" if it protects more than a dozen guest rentals at a time.



I thought the nightly limit was ten units. How could one have a dozen guest rentals and an owner room as well? 

Or do you know something about the nightly limit the rest of us don’t? 

Wes.


----------



## CO skier

ilya said:


> I am sure Wyndham doesn't want someone who paid  a few thousand dollars for a 1 mill contract to have the same benefits as someone who paid over $100,000... With all the chipping away of benefits  for those platinum owners its looking more like  they are treated the same..


So many owners, especially VIPs, do not understand that Wyndham is not a monolith -- there are departmental "silos" (as one TUG member described the concept when automatic upgrades were introduced) in many corporations.

The job of the Operations Silo is to ensure that all Club Wyndham owners receive the benefits they are entitled to.  Putting more owners on vacation is their job.  Putting non-owners on vacation is _not_ their job.  With the advent of online booking engines for Club Wyndham reservations, non-owners can easily receive the same benefits as an owner. If an owner priority policy comes at the expense of non-owners (including, as a unavoidable consequence, non-owner friends and family of the owner), Wyndham has no responsibility to non-owners.  It could also be suggested that Wyndham has no responsibility to owners violating a no commercial use rule.

The job of the Marketing Silo is to sign-up any warm body that checks-in.  Their credit rating, how many updates they have attended whenever, resale buyer who will never buy retail -- none of it matters to their mission objective.

The Sales Silo will weave whatever tales it takes to make a sale.  It might even be true at the time, but they definitely fail to mention that "rules are subject to change."

So the Sales Silo "doesn't want someone who paid  a few thousand dollars for a 1 mill contract to have the same benefits as someone who paid over $100,000... " and they may not care after the recission period has passed, but the Operations Silo has no obligation to follow-through on whatever true-at-the-time or untrue promises were made by the Sales Silo.


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> I thought the nightly limit was ten units. How could one have a dozen guest rentals and an owner room as well?
> 
> Or do you know something about the nightly limit the rest of us don’t?
> 
> Wes.


I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business.  I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for  abuse.  And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.

One, strategic two-day owner reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other guest reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit).  9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations loophole-protected by one owner reservation.



CO skier - back on page 14 - said:


> The strangely complicated policy of unlimited guest confirmations if as little as one night overlaps must have been an accommodation for the family reunion scenario.  It does open the loophole of a renter booking 9 guest reservations plus one reservation that overlaps at least one night, and there is no requirement the owner shows-up for their reservation.  Book 9 guest reservations for Christmas week and 9 reservations for New Year's, then book one owner reservation for two nights that overlap both sets of reservations -- the last date of the first nine and the first date of the second nine.  This is just to point out how much the policy can be abused, not that anyone would actually do it.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business. I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for abuse. And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.
> 
> One, strategic two-day reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit). 9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations by one owner reservation.



Well played Sir. 

You would have been a stellar mega renter. 

Wes.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> Do you think all owners are grizzled?.



Oh yes. Especially you and me Dom.


----------



## CO skier

chapjim said:


> Fifty-three resorts are on the restricted list, not "a very few."  At least eight holiday or event periods are affected.  For some resorts, every weekend July-October is restricted.  For sure there are lots of open periods at other resorts but it is not accurate to say very few timeframes are affected.


I was thinking relatively.

Compared to blacking-out _all_ resorts for the entire summer (if Wyndham wants to do something truly impactful), the current list and dates qualify as "very few."


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> Well played Sir.
> 
> You would have been a stellar mega renter.
> 
> Wes.


There is no reason to be insulting.


----------



## CO skier

Let me just say that Wyndham was on the right track in March with the restrictions.  Then they got feedback, presumably how the March rules affected family reunions.  So when they expanded the program, they tried to be inclusive of family reunions, but did not have the knowledge and usage of "high order" (megarenters and others) owners.  Wyndham management went only as far as the "average owner" or "typical owner" in their thinking and, with a lack of full knowledge of how the system can be "worked," opened a significant "workaround" to the March rules.

If a panel of knowledgeable owners (exemplified in this thread, on all sides, for example) could have somehow been assembled to do nothing but comment and critique (and in no way set policy), Wyndham could have saved many hundreds of wasted man-hours and some embarassment when the ill-considered, one-night overlap policy is dispensed.  (Hopefully).

I mean, really, it took me less than 10 minutes to see the flaws in the one-night overlap policy.  For someone who has little experience as an owner, and thinks no further than "let's include family reunions" the policy makes sense.  But that is someone who should not be setting such far-reaching Club policies.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business.  I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for  abuse.  And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.
> 
> One, strategic two-day owner reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other guest reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit).  9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations loophole-protected by one owner reservation.


Is it really a loophole when you are playing within their rules? Asking for all my VIP friends.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> Is it really a loophole when you are playing within their rules? Asking for all my VIP friends.



The real test will be if sales tells us how to use it ... and then says they guarantee it will work ... if we just buy more points.


----------



## Jan M.

The website is still saying: "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." Owners trying to twist what they're reading or interpret it to their advantage may be in for a big shock when the system cancels their reservations. We know that reservations may not be and don't have to be cancelled by Wyndham within a certain time frame. Some of you may have experienced having the system cancel a reservation, some when it shouldn't have. You might get lucky if there's still availability at the resort but if there isn't neither the reps nor owner care will be able to help you. I'd be thinking long and hard about what you're going to do when your renter shows up to check in and is told they don't have a reservation.

With these black out lists it's foolish for owners who rent to try to game the system. Maybe other people don't see this as Wyndham gunning for owners who rent but I do. Wyndham may not in fact actually be going after everyone who rents but that doesn't mean they won't be collateral damage. I'm of the opinion that Wyndham is okay with that. Think about it. Did the owners who most of you consider the mega renters start out as mega renters? No they started small, realized it was profitable and built their business. 

One last word of caution. I've seen some of you insisting that you aren't a mega renter, that you're just the little guy. You can be on Wyndham's list of mega renters even if you only have 1.5-3 million points.


----------



## ilya

VacayKat said:


> Extraholidays advertises their inventory on those external sites such as travelocity etc. if you see it there- it’s from Wyndham.




A few years back I was at A resort in Tennessee and overheard management and sales talk about a multi billion dollar investment  Wyndham was undertaking to get rid of renters.. They  said they were in the works with buying up all the rental companies.. Trip adviser, travelocity, Expedia, VRBO..etc... What I was surprised at is they also included Redweek..

At another time I was looking for a rental and came upon one thru  one of those site and there was a "TRIP??? by Wyndham... I called and got a Wyndham employee and they said it was a pilot program... Don't remember the full name...So, they are constantly trying to find new ways to rent..

Either way I am able to find what I want but I also paid $$ for that.  It would bother me if an all  resale  contracts will have the same benefits as I do in the long term...Maybe this is why they are using RFR more now..


----------



## dioxide45

tschwa2 said:


> Does it seem like this change is aimed at knocking out Koala, the same as the last big change was aimed at points managers, basically at businesses that make their business to rent out owner inventory.


I think KOALA has been a little to lenient with their owners on adding guest certificates. IMO if a reservation is strict (non refundable), then the guest certificate should be added at time of booking. Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense. I guess it is good for the owners, but if something is no longer cancellable and the owner is guaranteed their money, then they should add the guest name.

I do think some additional cancellation terms should be available. Like a $150 cancellation penalty if cancelled after time of booking. This can then cover the cost of the guest certificate and should require the owner to add the guest certificate at time of booking.

This of course wouldn't have prevented the current policy changes, but probably would have prevented a lot of problems, lost time and reputation for for everyone involved.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense.



Actually, the cancellation window for an owner cancelling a reservation and getting their points back ends at 15 days.  After that, unless they had point protection (which has been an on again/off again option) they would lose the points if they cancelled the reservation or have to try to rent the reservation to someone else/use it themselves.  Given the limited number of free guest certificates annually and the  cost of additional ones, allowing owners to wait until the 15 day point before using one made a good deal of sense to me because that was the "point of no return" for the reservation.  I believe Koala also allows setting the cancellation policy for renters at 16 days.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Actually, the cancellation window for an owner cancelling a reservation and getting their points back ends at 15 days.  After that, unless they had point protection (which has been an on again/off again option) they would lose the points if they cancelled the reservation or have to try to rent the reservation to someone else/use it themselves.  Given the limited number of free guest certificates annually and the  cost of additional ones, allowing owners to wait until the 15 day point before using one made a good deal of sense to me because that was the "point of no return" for the reservation.  I believe Koala also allows setting the cancellation policy for renters at 16 days.


It does allow for the cancellation policy of 16 days. However most of the listings I see on their site for Wyndham properties have strict cancellation policies. I understand why they went with the policy of allowing guest certificates being added at day 15, but if a reservation is non cancellable with no refund, then the owner should have been forced to add the guest certificate. I have seen a number of people upset that their reservations were cancelled. This wouldn't have happened if the owner added the guest certificate at the time of booking for what is in most cases a non refundable reservation.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> It does allow for the cancellation policy of 16 days. However most of the listings I see on their site for Wyndham properties have strict cancellation policies. I understand why they went with the policy of allowing guest certificates being added at day 15, but if a reservation is non cancellable with no refund, then the owner should have been forced to add the guest certificate. I have seen a number of people upset that their reservations were cancelled. This wouldn't have happened if the owner added the guest certificate at the time of booking for what is in most cases a non refundable reservation.



The strict cancellation policy use could be the result of folks trying to rent out reservations close to the deadline for depositing points into a future year in order to avoid being squeezed by that deadline for using the points they get back by cancelling.  There are probably also a number of inexperienced folks trying to rent out the excess points they have due to the last year of light or no travel, not realizing that they are setting up incentives for guests to cancel now and seek a rental with less strict cancellation policies.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> The strict cancellation policy use could be the result of folks trying to rent out reservations close to the deadline for depositing points into a future year in order to avoid being squeezed by that deadline for using the points they get back by cancelling.  There are probably also a number of inexperienced folks trying to rent out the excess points they have due to the last year of light or no travel, not realizing that they are setting up incentives for guests to cancel now and seek a rental with less strict cancellation policies.


Again though, if a reservation is non cancellable, I don't understand why they would allow for guest certificates to be added at day 15. I see plenty of reservations out there for October that are Strict cancellation policy. The issue isn't more about owners, but preventing future issues if Wyndham expands the blackout dates or resorts or even expands it into 2022. Having to accomodate or refund a lot of reservations doesn't bode well, especially if a guest has already made other travel plans and reservations (like air).


----------



## Eric B

Markets would be so much more efficient if the participants in them were all rational....


----------



## chapjim

Jan M. said:


> The website is still saying: "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." Owners trying to twist what they're reading or interpret it to their advantage may be in for a big shock when the system cancels their reservations. We know that reservations may not be and don't have to be cancelled by Wyndham within a certain time frame. Some of you may have experienced having the system cancel a reservation, some when it shouldn't have. You might get lucky if there's still availability at the resort but if there isn't neither the reps nor owner care will be able to help you. I'd be thinking long and hard about what you're going to do when your renter shows up to check in and is told they don't have a reservation.
> 
> With these black out lists it's foolish for owners who rent to try to game the system. Maybe other people don't see this as Wyndham gunning for owners who rent but I do. Wyndham may not in fact actually be going after everyone who rents but that doesn't mean they won't be collateral damage. I'm of the opinion that Wyndham is okay with that. Think about it. Did the owners who most of you consider the mega renters start out as mega renters? No they started small, realized it was profitable and built their business.
> 
> One last word of caution. I've seen some of you insisting that you aren't a mega renter, that you're just the little guy. You can be on Wyndham's list of mega renters even if you only have 1.5-3 million points.



Is there nothing between "little guy" and "mega-renter?"

Do we know how Wyndham defines "mega-renter?"


----------



## chapjim

dioxide45 said:


> I think KOALA has been a little to lenient with their owners on adding guest certificates. IMO if a reservation is strict (non refundable), then the guest certificate should be added at time of booking. Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense. I guess it is good for the owners, but if something is no longer cancellable and the owner is guaranteed their money, then they should add the guest name.
> 
> I do think some additional cancellation terms should be available. Like a $150 cancellation penalty if cancelled after time of booking. This can then cover the cost of the guest certificate and should require the owner to add the guest certificate at time of booking.
> 
> This of course wouldn't have prevented the current policy changes, but probably would have prevented a lot of problems, lost time and reputation for for everyone involved.



I have a hard time thinking most renters would be comfortable not getting a guest confirmation until 15 days before starting travel.


----------



## dioxide45

chapjim said:


> I have a hard time thinking most renters would be comfortable not getting a guest confirmation until 15 days before starting travel.


I would agree, but it seems to happen. The thing with KOALA is, you never get an actual confirmation except the KOALA confirmation. So you never really know if your name is on the reservation or not. You don't see the Wyndham confirmation. At least that has been my experience when renting through them.


----------



## chapjim

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, but it seems to happen. The thing with KOALA is, you never get an actual confirmation except the KOALA confirmation. So you never really know if your name is on the reservation or not. You don't see the Wyndham confirmation. At least that has been my experience when renting through them.



Does Koala confirm to the renter before the Wyndham owner sends Koala a guest confirmation?  Yes or no, someone is at risk.


----------



## dioxide45

chapjim said:


> Does Koala confirm to the renter before the Wyndham owner sends Koala a guest confirmation?  Yes or no, someone is at risk.


I don't really know their process. I know when I make a booking, it isn't confirmed and the owner/host has to confirm it. Perhaps they just confirm they still have an active reservation that they are able to provide to the renter. Then usually within 24 hours you get a confirmation indicating the the host has confirmed the booking. But I never see any Wyndham confirmation. I just show up and give the resort my name and they have me in the system. I don't know if the owner ever provides KOALA with a final confirmation in the guests name. I know they confirm the booking upfront, but beyond that I don't really know. I may ask KOALA about this to see how the process works at time of confirming a guest.


----------



## 55plus

ilya said:


> If they really wanted to put a halt on renting for  guest they should train the sales people not to lie..


Speaking the truth goes against sales weasel training. They are trained to say whatever it takes to make a sale. They can get away with it because if you decide to buy based on what you were told, as soon as you sign the contract Wyndham is off the hook for the promises made. There is a disclaimer in the contract that basically states, any promises made are moot unless they are spelled out in the contract.


----------



## Cyrus24

I wanted to follow up on comments that have been made regarding Extra Holidays and the Blackout list.  I had a reason to call the EH number this morning and while on the call I confirmed that EH will NOT be renting units that cover Blackout Resorts/Dates.  I had already noted that WBC had no availability on Blackout Dates and another TUG member had noted that this was the case at other resorts on the Blackout list.  I give Wyndham props for shutting down their revenue stream as they shut down the point using options for those who occasionally rent.


----------



## bnoble

dioxide45 said:


> The thing with KOALA is, you never get an actual confirmation except the KOALA confirmation. So you never really know if your name is on the reservation or not.


I would guess that the average KOALA renter doesn't really understand the importance of the distinction.


----------



## PhilD41

For those curious about Koala, they verify the reservation during the booking process. When it rents the owner is asked to confirm the the reservation and to add the renter to the reservation. I believe they confirm with the renter one the rental in confirmed giving the owner time to add the guests name to the reservation. Honestly, I have only rented one and it was within 45 days of check-in so I added the guest the same day. The do ask to use their confirmation email on the reservation so they get the Wyndham email. I know for a fact that they regularly check on the reservation. I received a call about a week prior to check-in saying the renters name wasn't on the reservation. It was and I send a screenshot showing as much. In a few hours they had it cleared up... That tells me they work directly with Wyndham in a way most other platforms do not. 

There is always risk in any exchange. I believe they have a fair balance in the risk area. They do have two sets of customers and need to keep both happy. To the point of booking within 60 days and swapping out reservations.... I am not sure their system supports that. You are required to provide the confirmation number when you list and it stays with the listing. I am not sure what they would do if the reservation confirmed when the owner added the renter wasn't the same as what was in their system.... Then again, I have never tried or intend to.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Speaking the truth goes against sales weasel training. They are trained to say whatever it takes to make a sale. They can get away with it because if you decide to buy based on what you were told, as soon as you sign the contract Wyndham is off the hook for the promises made. There is a disclaimer in the contract that basically states, any promises made are moot unless they are spelled out in the contract.



And there is a zero chance of modifying the contract.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Is there nothing between "little guy" and "mega-renter?"
> 
> Do we know how Wyndham defines "mega-renter?"


If you have to ask you probably are a mega renter. I am sure Wyndham has some metrics to define a "mega-renter" or the "little guy". It is all fun and games until Wyndham pulls the rug but like Jan said it is their club and they can change the rules without regard for what was promised or sold as a benefit. My advice for all the owners that rent points is to ride it as hard as you can until the music stops. Hopefully you can negotiate a exit comparable to what @ronparise or @am1 received.


----------



## tschwa2

It also seems strange to me that Glacier Canyon isn't on the list for the 4th if not for summer weekends completely.


----------



## dioxide45

tschwa2 said:


> It also seems strange to me that Glacier Canyon isn't on the list for the 4th if not for summer weekends completely.


I am sure some would prefer that you don't point these things out


----------



## 55plus

If the restriction list continues next year I would expect to see Glacier Canyon on the list for summer and holidays.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> If the restriction list continues next year I would expect to see Glacier Canyon on the list for summer and holidays.


You mean when not if.


----------



## dioxide45

PhilD41 said:


> For those curious about Koala, they verify the reservation during the booking process. When it rents the owner is asked to confirm the the reservation and to add the renter to the reservation. I believe they confirm with the renter one the rental in confirmed giving the owner time to add the guests name to the reservation. Honestly, I have only rented one and it was within 45 days of check-in so I added the guest the same day. The do ask to use their confirmation email on the reservation so they get the Wyndham email. I know for a fact that they regularly check on the reservation. I received a call about a week prior to check-in saying the renters name wasn't on the reservation. It was and I send a screenshot showing as much. In a few hours they had it cleared up... That tells me they work directly with Wyndham in a way most other platforms do not.
> 
> There is always risk in any exchange. I believe they have a fair balance in the risk area. They do have two sets of customers and need to keep both happy. To the point of booking within 60 days and swapping out reservations.... I am not sure their system supports that. You are required to provide the confirmation number when you list and it stays with the listing. I am not sure what they would do if the reservation confirmed when the owner added the renter wasn't the same as what was in their system.... Then again, I have never tried or intend to.


Thanks for explaining the process. Perhaps the 15 day guest cert add was reserved for those 16 day cancellation policies. I suspect your reservation was Strict cancellation which meant you could be paid even if the renter couldn't go. I really don't like the way that KOALA words the description for the Strict cancellation policy by leaving open the possibility of at least requesting a refund. I mean if a renter wants a better cancellation policy, you should find a listing that has one.

I think the issue may continue into next year and there are probably a lot of people making 2022 rentals and perhaps not yet adding guest certificates. That could mean a lot of unhappy renters who have their rentals cancelled because the owner can no longer add the guest. I think this is why another cancellation policy needs to allow for a partial refund if cancelled at day X. If the owner had to add a free guest cert, they will at least get money to pay for the next one if they are out of free ones. If they had to pay for the guest cert on the reservation, well they are being reimbursed for that. There is already one unhappy renter with a review on Trustpilot who wasn't please with how the Wyndham situation was handled and the 15 day add of the guest name. I do realise though that many of the other big renters like Vacation Strategy employ similar policies of not adding the guest name right away.


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> If the restriction list continues next year I would expect to see Glacier Canyon on the list for summer and holidays.


So, you are a renter?   Wow.  I never would have guessed that.








						Wyndham Glacier Canyon - 4th of July Week (7 nights) - July 2-9, 2021
					

WISCONSIN DELLS - the Waterpark Capital of the World - Best prices in in town. . .  *** JULY 2-9, 2021 - 7 Nights: 1 Bedroom Deluxe Condo (Sleeps 4) for $700 (equates to $25 per night/per person)    ** The CONDO is managed by Wyndham Vacation Resorts: Balcony; Fully equipped kitchen; Washer and...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## am1

dgalati said:


> If you have to ask you probably are a mega renter. I am sure Wyndham has some metrics to define a "mega-renter" or the "little guy". It is all fun and games until Wyndham pulls the rug but like Jan said it is their club and they can change the rules without regard for what was promised or sold as a benefit. My advice for all the owners that rent points is to ride it as hard as you can until the music stops. Hopefully you can negotiate a exit comparable to what @ronparise or @am1 received.




Not sure what deal others got but I would not count on it as an exit strategy.  A nice bonus maybe but a long shot for sure. Much more complicated then just them to get rid of a mega renter. Dollars and sense I was constantly upgrading the smallest unit at half points to the largest units.  2-3 hours on the phone each day with VCs every issue es escalated to owner relations.  Deal looks a lot better now post Covid.


----------



## ladawgfan

As has been indicated before, there are significant differences between the “email version” of the restrictions versus the website version. I’m not in favor of either, as I am one of those “megarenters" who paid $000’s of dollars to Wyndham over 30 years to reach Founder’s status, and was repeatedly told I could rent *any* points I owned to cover my maintenance fees. I understand the purchase contracts do not provide me with language to that effect, but I’m sure Wyndham would have a hard time defending this verbal promise made to 000’s of owners by Wyndham’s sales *agents* if they were to be challenged in a class action lawsuit. In addition, it’s likely Wyndham would be unable to defend the specific language in the email version of the restrictions, as many owners including myself never received these directly from Wyndham and Wyndham’s own vacation counselors apparently don’t fully understand how the guest rules are to be applied on a consistent basis.

The “website” version of the restrictions makes no reference to guest reservations which overlap one of the restricted periods being limited to two per year. The language of that version indicates owners “may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates.” I would argue that this language can be interpreted to permit two guest reservations during each of the restricted dates. In addition, it could also be argued that the two guest confirmations allowed may apply to each of the individual resorts within each restricted period. It seems to me this would go a long way toward providing more availability for owners at high demand resorts during peak periods, and make these restrictions somewhat more palatable to those who oppose them. Hopefully Wyndham will consider language to address the major injustice they have imposed on many of their owners.

Although irrelevant, my annual point allotment is a little over 8 million points and is only enough to cover my personal travel and annual maintenance fees. They do not provide me any recovery of my initial investment or a “commercial profit.” If any of the true “megarenters” were to bring such a lawsuit I would be happy to join and be willing to testify in any court proceedings.


----------



## dioxide45

55plus said:


> Speaking the truth goes against sales weasel training. They are trained to say whatever it takes to make a sale. They can get away with it because if you decide to buy based on what you were told, as soon as you sign the contract Wyndham is off the hook for the promises made. There is a disclaimer in the contract that basically states, any promises made are moot unless they are spelled out in the contract.


Contracts don't always protect those who wrote them. Diamond had to pay out a lot of money to the state of Arizona because of their sales practices. If it can be proven that people were told of a specific benefit that didn't exist and the issue was systemic, then they are going to have a hard time getting their contract to hold up.


----------



## bnoble

dlehrhart said:


> I’m sure Wyndham would have a hard time defending this verbal promise made to 000’s of owners by Wyndham’s sales *agents* if they were to be challenged in a class action lawsuit.


People have tried this before, and AFAIK none of them have been successful. That doesn't mean it can't happen, because past performance doesn't guarantee future results. But I know which way I'd be betting.


----------



## paxsarah

dlehrhart said:


> I would argue that this language can be interpreted to permit two guest reservations during each of the restricted dates. In addition, it could also be argued that the two guest confirmations allowed may apply to each of the individual resorts within each restricted period.


That…is quite a stretch.


----------



## dgalati

am1 said:


> Not sure what deal others got but I would not count on it as an exit strategy.  A nice bonus maybe but a long shot for sure. Much more complicated then just them to get rid of a mega renter. Dollars and sense I was constantly upgrading the smallest unit at half points to the largest units.  2-3 hours on the phone each day with VCs every issue es escalated to owner relations.  Deal looks a lot better now post Covid.


They did you a favor. I also know I dodged a bullet when they shut my gig down the fall of 2019. If I wasn't shut down I would of been sitting on 1 million points that I couldn't strip and flip. It would have been a expensive year paying maintenance fees with no where to travel. Thank you Wyndham for the orderly exit. Last deeds I had transferred out in Feb of 2020.


----------



## 55plus

Cyrus24 said:


> So, you are a renter?   Wow.  I never would have guessed that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham Glacier Canyon - 4th of July Week (7 nights) - July 2-9, 2021
> 
> 
> WISCONSIN DELLS - the Waterpark Capital of the World - Best prices in in town. . .  *** JULY 2-9, 2021 - 7 Nights: 1 Bedroom Deluxe Condo (Sleeps 4) for $700 (equates to $25 per night/per person)    ** The CONDO is managed by Wyndham Vacation Resorts: Balcony; Fully equipped kitchen; Washer and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


It was to late to cancel (within 15 days), so I rented it to offset the points I was losing.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> It was to late to cancel (within 15 days), so I rented it to offset the points I was losing.



And that’s your right as an owner. 

Even though it was during the most popular time for Glacier Canyon. I’m glad you were able to salvage something


----------



## ilya

55plus said:


> It was to late to cancel (within 15 days), so I rented it to offset the points I was losing.



I thought you said you had a hard time getting prime weeks... Isn't that week considered prime?


----------



## 55plus

ilya said:


> I thought you said you had a hard time getting prime weeks... Isn't that week considered prime?


That was a cancellation I picked up a few weeks ago. I was able to pick up a 4 bedroom since then so I cancelled the 1 bedroom. A 4 bedroom works out better. Now I can take nieces and nephews.


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> That was a cancellation I picked up a few weeks ago. I was able to pick up a 4 bedroom since then so I cancelled the 1 bedroom. A 4 bedroom works out better. Now I can take nieces and nephews.


You did not cancel the 1BR, you RENTED it.  Seems that you've been all over the renters in the string, working with Michael Brown to shut it all down..  And,, now, we find out that you are a renter.  I'm ok with it, I need to get rid of points from time to time.


----------



## 55plus

Cyrus24 said:


> You did not cancel the 1BR, you RENTED it.  Seems that you've been all over the renters in the string, working with Michael Brown to shut it all down..  And,, now, we find out that you are a renter.  I'm ok with it, I need to get rid of points from time to time.


Like I previously stated, it was past the drop dead date so instead of taking a loss I rented it to recoup something from the points I lost. It was a $1000 to $1500 rental over the 4th of July, but I'm not greedy so I let it go for $700 on TUG.


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> Like I previously stated, it was past the drop dead date so instead of taking a loss I rented it to recoup something from the points I lost. It was a $1000 to $1500 rental over the 4th of July, but I'm not greedy so I let it go for $700 on TUG.


And, I'm very much OK with what you did.  My point was that you've been trying to shut down rentals and all the while you've been a renter through the years (for whatever reason).   We all have a reason to be a renter from time to time.  And, this is why many are having trouble with the blackout rules you are trying so hard to have expanded.  I have absolutely no problem with you being a renter.


----------



## chapjim

PhilD41 said:


> For those curious about Koala, they verify the reservation during the booking process. When it rents the owner is asked to confirm the the reservation and to add the renter to the reservation. I believe they confirm with the renter one the rental in confirmed giving the owner time to add the guests name to the reservation. Honestly, I have only rented one and it was within 45 days of check-in so I added the guest the same day. The do ask to use their confirmation email on the reservation so they get the Wyndham email. I know for a fact that they regularly check on the reservation. I received a call about a week prior to check-in saying the renters name wasn't on the reservation. It was and I send a screenshot showing as much. In a few hours they had it cleared up... That tells me they work directly with Wyndham in a way most other platforms do not.
> 
> There is always risk in any exchange. I believe they have a fair balance in the risk area. They do have two sets of customers and need to keep both happy. To the point of booking within 60 days and swapping out reservations.... I am not sure their system supports that. You are required to provide the confirmation number when you list and it stays with the listing. I am not sure what they would do if the reservation confirmed when the owner added the renter wasn't the same as what was in their system.... Then again, I have never tried or intend to.



I am generally anxious to add a guest to a reservation and Koala has the form partially completed but street address has to come from the renter via Koala.

Unfortunately, Wyndham renters through Koala will not get the texts from the resorts.  Probably not a great loss.  I doubt


dlehrhart said:


> As has been indicated before, there are significant differences between the “email version” of the restrictions versus the website version. I’m not in favor of either, as I am one of those “megarenters" who paid $000’s of dollars to Wyndham over 30 years to reach Founder’s status, and was repeatedly told I could rent *any* points I owned to cover my maintenance fees. I understand the purchase contracts do not provide me with language to that effect, but I’m sure Wyndham would have a hard time defending this verbal promise made to 000’s of owners by Wyndham’s sales *agents* if they were to be challenged in a class action lawsuit. In addition, it’s likely Wyndham would be unable to defend the specific language in the email version of the restrictions, as many owners including myself never received these directly from Wyndham and Wyndham’s own vacation counselors apparently don’t fully understand how the guest rules are to be applied on a consistent basis.
> 
> The “website” version of the restrictions makes no reference to guest reservations which overlap one of the restricted periods being limited to two per year. The language of that version indicates owners “may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates.” I would argue that this language can be interpreted to permit two guest reservations during each of the restricted dates. In addition, it could also be argued that the two guest confirmations allowed may apply to each of the individual resorts within each restricted period. It seems to me this would go a long way toward providing more availability for owners at high demand resorts during peak periods, and make these restrictions somewhat more palatable to those who oppose them. Hopefully Wyndham will consider language to address the major injustice they have imposed on many of their owners.
> 
> Although irrelevant, my annual point allotment is a little over 8 million points and is only enough to cover my personal travel and annual maintenance fees. They do not provide me any recovery of my initial investment or a “commercial profit.” If any of the true “megarenters” were to bring such a lawsuit I would be happy to join and be willing to testify in any court proceedings.



Oh, Jeez!   Not another class action!

Old saw:  Verbal promises aren't worth the paper they're written on.


----------



## 55plus

Cyrus24 said:


> And, I'm very much OK with what you did.  My point was that you've been trying to shut down rentals and all the while you've been a renter through the years (for whatever reason).   We all have a reason to be a renter from time to time.  And, this is why many are having trouble with the blackout rules you are trying so hard to have expanded.  I have absolutely no problem with you being a renter.


I didn't book that reservation to rent. It turned into a rental by happenstance. It was for personal travel that I offered up after a 4 bedroom came available. If it wasn't past the drop dead date, I would have cancelled the reservation so someone else could book it. I let it go for less than it would have cost a non VIP to book. So, if you think about it, it wasn't  technically a rental, it was a gift with a user fee.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I didn't book that reservation to rent. It turned into a rental by happenstance. It was for personal travel that I offered up after a 4 bedroom came available. If it wasn't past the drop dead date, I would have cancelled the reservation so someone else could book it. I let it go for less than it would have cost a non VIP to book. So, if you think about it, it wasn't  technically a rental, it was a gift with a user fee.


A gift with a user fee. Very interesting. I wonder if Wyndham has thought about this as a new revenue stream?


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> So, you are a renter?   Wow.  I never would have guessed that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham Glacier Canyon - 4th of July Week (7 nights) - July 2-9, 2021
> 
> 
> WISCONSIN DELLS - the Waterpark Capital of the World - Best prices in in town. . .  *** JULY 2-9, 2021 - 7 Nights: 1 Bedroom Deluxe Condo (Sleeps 4) for $700 (equates to $25 per night/per person)    ** The CONDO is managed by Wyndham Vacation Resorts: Balcony; Fully equipped kitchen; Washer and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


LOL thanks for pointing out the truth. Looks like something Wyndham would do.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> You did not cancel the 1BR, you RENTED it.  Seems that you've been all over the renters in the string, working with Michael Brown to shut it all down..  And,, now, we find out that you are a renter.  I'm ok with it, I need to get rid of points from time to time.


Wow! 



55plus said:


> I didn't book that reservation to rent. It turned into a rental by happenstance.
> happens.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> That was a cancellation I picked up a few weeks ago. I was able to pick up a 4 bedroom since then so I cancelled the 1 bedroom. A 4 bedroom works out better. Now I can take nieces and nephews.



So ... you were able to find and book not one, but two reservations, during a highly demanded holiday week at a very popular resort. Doesn’t seem that the mega renters prevented you from getting more reservations than you actually needed. 

And that’s the point. There is inventory available for owners who search or stay up until midnight 13 months out. 

I’m glad you were able to recover some funds. But your position demonizing renters isn’t consistent with your actions. 

Right?


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> So ... you were able to find and book not one, but two reservations, during a highly demanded holiday week at a very popular resort. Doesn’t seem that the mega renters prevented you from getting more reservations than you actually needed.
> 
> And that’s the point. There is inventory available for owners who search or stay up until midnight 13 months out.
> 
> I’m glad you were able to recover some funds. But your position demonizing renters isn’t consistent with your actions.
> 
> Right?


 I am suprised at what some preach then actually do. Smh and lmao


----------



## 55plus

I'm not demonizing renters. My position is owners should have some priority during high demands timeframes at high demands resorts, because most owners can't plan 10-13 months out. Whether it be because of employment, family situations, etc. I'm speaking for the average Joe. I'm retired so I can. Infact, I booked Biketoberfest last year for this October. What pisses me off is when I try to book 13 months out there isn't any two, three or four bedroom units available and then they show up for rent on eBay, Craigslist, Extra Holiday, etc.


----------



## dioxide45

chapjim said:


> Unfortunately, Wyndham renters through Koala will not get the texts from the resorts. Probably not a great loss. I doubt


We don't get texts, but we now get Extra Vacations promotional emails....


----------



## Zeke_62

I had to walk both VC and OC through the new regulations last Sunday.  Has anyone talked to VC after their meeting last week?  Just curious if they are verbally adding a different spin now.


----------



## dgalati

Zeke_62 said:


> I'm the one that had to walk both VC and OC through the new regulations last Sunday.  Has anyone talked to VC after their meeting last week?  Just curious if they are verbally adding a different spin now.


I think Wyndham is using sales daze and confuse approach to limit rentals. The miscommunications and different answers you receive from the VC & OC help to limit rentals also. What owner wants to take the chance on the possible cancellation of a rental.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Speaking of Wyndham's awesome communication...

I added a guest today, at Bonnet Creek, and this is on the confirmation:

Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.

No mention of the second wave policy for reservations after June 18th :-(

The reservation qualifies as valid under the second wave policy. I had to walk the VC through that, according to the 2nd wave policy (overlaps with an owners reservation).  As best as I can tell, the reservation is good, I'll keep you posted. If I understand correctly, a flag would have been set if it were subject to cancellation and the VC said the flag is not set.  I called Bonnet Creek and they see the reservation and said any cancellations would come from corporate.  Keeping a close eye on this one to make sure all works as expected.

My understanding - if reservations overlap even 1 day with an owner reservation, the reservation qualifies as good. 
For Bonnet Creek, the reservations need to have been made after June 18th.  I have a July 1-5 under an owner, and a June 28 checking in under a guest (a friend arriving first). Both reservations were made after June 18th so I am told make me okay for the second wave policy. 

I have no plans or interest in cancelling the owner reservation after the guest checks in. An owner is checking in, per the rules. I have no interest in poking the bear and getting on a list somewhere. 

Another follow-up thought. We get 2 exceptions per year. If I were to cancel the owner checkin on July 1, Wyndham could count this toward my exceptions quota.  No one said that would happen, but if I were Wyndham, that is what I would do to attempt to plug that loop hole.


----------



## wjappraise

Sandi Bo said:


> Speaking of Wyndham's awesome communication...
> 
> I added a guest today, at Bonnet Creek, and this is on the confirmation:
> 
> Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.
> 
> No mention of the second wave policy for reservations after June 18th :-(
> 
> The reservation qualifies as valid under the second wave policy. I had to walk the VC through that, according to the 2nd wave policy (overlaps with an owners reservation). As best as I can tell, the reservation is good, I'll keep you posted. If I understand correctly, a flag would have been set if it were subject to cancellation and the VC said the flag is not set. I called Bonnet Creek and they see the reservation and said any cancellations would come from corporate. Keeping a close eye on this one to make sure all works as expected.
> 
> My understanding - if reservations overlap even 1 day with an owner reservation, the reservation qualifies as good.
> For Bonnet Creek, the reservations need to have been made after June 18th. I have a July 1-5 under an owner, and a June 28 checking in under a guest (a friend arriving first). Both reservations were made after June 18th so I am told make me okay for the second wave policy.
> 
> I have no plans or interest in cancelling the owner reservation after the guest checks in. An owner is checking in, per the rules. I have no interest in poking the bear and getting on a list somewhere.
> 
> Another follow-up thought. We get 2 exceptions per year. If I were to cancel the owner checkin on July 1, Wyndham could count this toward my exceptions quota. No one said that would happen, but if I were Wyndham, that is what I would do to attempt to plug that loop hole.



Thanks for sharing your episode on this long strange journey.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> Speaking of Wyndham's awesome communication...
> 
> I added a guest today, at Bonnet Creek, and this is on the confirmation:
> 
> Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.
> 
> No mention of the second wave policy for reservations after June 18th :-(
> 
> The reservation qualifies as valid under the second wave policy. I had to walk the VC through that, according to the 2nd wave policy (overlaps with an owners reservation).  As best as I can tell, the reservation is good, I'll keep you posted. If I understand correctly, a flag would have been set if it were subject to cancellation and the VC said the flag is not set.  I called Bonnet Creek and they see the reservation and said any cancellations would come from corporate.  Keeping a close eye on this one to make sure all works as expected.
> 
> My understanding - if reservations overlap even 1 day with an owner reservation, the reservation qualifies as good.
> For Bonnet Creek, the reservations need to have been made after June 18th.  I have a July 1-5 under an owner, and a June 28 checking in under a guest (a friend arriving first). Both reservations were made after June 18th so I am told make me okay for the second wave policy.
> 
> I have no plans or interest in cancelling the owner reservation after the guest checks in. An owner is checking in, per the rules. I have no interest in poking the bear and getting on a list somewhere.
> 
> Another follow-up thought. We get 2 exceptions per year. If I were to cancel the owner checkin on July 1, Wyndham could count this toward my exceptions quota.  No one said that would happen, but if I were Wyndham, that is what I would do to attempt to plug that loop hole.



How do we communicate with Wyndham that we want to use one of our exceptions?  Call a VC before adding the guest?  Can we trust the system to properly deal with these reservations and exceptions?


----------



## Sandi Bo

chapjim said:


> How do we communicate with Wyndham that we want to use one of our exceptions?  Call a VC before adding the guest?  Can we trust the system to properly deal with these reservations and exceptions?


I don't trust the system to do anything and plan to call fwiw. I'm pretty sure the VC or OC can do something to make the reservation safe (but that is just my perception and clarifying is challenging).  (This was coming from a VC who first said the owner and guest needed to checkin the same day, confirmed that with his supervisor, but eventually agreed with me that one overlapping day was sufficient).

I was also told, that if the original reservation had been made prior to June 18th, a call into them would ensure the reservation wasn't cancelled.  Since my reservation was made after June 18th, they said a phone call wasn't necessary. 

Trust but verify (and maybe throw in a few Hail Mary's)?


----------



## biggen

I emailed Vacation Strategy (a mega renter) who I have used off and on over the years about how they are handling this new policy.  I had asked if they are going to work with owners and use the two guest confirmations per year each owner gets in order to use as a loophole to evade this new policy.  They claim owners have to be at the resort during the guest overlap.  Here is their email to me:


> Actually they can't. We thought the same and had hope since we have several hundred owners we can use. So we called Wyndham to 100% confirm. What they mean by that is if the owner wants to travel to the resort with their guests then they can use up to 2 confirmations. AKA: you can only use your guest confirmations if you are also coming down as well. Basically in the event that an owner is coming down with a big party and is needing multiple rooms, they can have 1 in their name and 2 in a guest's name. But if the owner cancels their personal reservations down the line, they will automatically cancel the guest ones too.



Is this correct?  I thought owners could use their two GCs per year to avoid having to be on property.


----------



## wjappraise

biggen said:


> I emailed Vacation Strategy (a mega renter) who I have used off and on over the years about how they are handling this new policy. I had asked if they are going to work with owners and use the two guest confirmations per year each owner gets in order to use as a loophole to evade this new policy. They claim owners have to be at the resort during the guest overlap. Here is their email to me:
> 
> 
> Is this correct? I thought owners could use their two GCs per year to avoid having to be on property.



I’m not sure why Wyndham can’t get their agents to understand their new policy - oh wait, it’s Wyndham, that’s why. 

Here is the policy from the email: 

• Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.

• For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.

“As long as the owner and guest reservations have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.” 

That’s a quote. Of course, you are limited to no more than 10 units per night, less at smaller resorts. 

Wes.


----------



## chapjim

wjappraise said:


> I’m not sure why Wyndham can’t get their agents to understand their new policy - oh wait, it’s Wyndham, that’s why.
> 
> Here is the policy from the email:
> 
> • Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.
> 
> • For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.
> 
> “As long as the owner and guest reservations have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.”
> 
> That’s a quote. Of course, you are limited to no more than 10 units per night, less at smaller resorts.
> 
> Wes.




Another part of the question:  Is it necessary for the owner to occupy during the period or is just making the owner's reservation sufficient?  If occupancy is necessary for the exception and the owner doesn't occupy, then Wyndham could justifiably reverse the exception.  If occupancy is not necessary, then the whole thing is a sham.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Another part of the question:  Is it necessary for the owner to occupy during the period or is just making the owner's reservation sufficient?  If occupancy is necessary for the exception and the owner doesn't occupy, then Wyndham could justifiably reverse the exception.  If occupancy is not necessary, then the whole thing is a sham.


Just another loophole to game the system?


----------



## WhiskeyJack

chapjim said:


> Another part of the question:  Is it necessary for the owner to occupy during the period or is just making the owner's reservation sufficient?  If occupancy is necessary for the exception and the owner doesn't occupy, then Wyndham could justifiably reverse the exception.  If occupancy is not necessary, then the whole thing is a sham.



I asked this question of an Owner Care rep today.  He didn't seem that knowledgeable of the new rules.  Even said he and others have never been trained.  I had to send him the email because all he had seen so far was what was on the website.  So take his answer he gave me with this in mind.

He said that based on his "experience" so far that if the owner is scheduled to check in after the guest, and at least one day overlaps, then even if the owner does not show they will not make the guest move out after they have checked in.  That seems like a no brainer, I can't imagine the resort kicking someone out that has already checked in,  so I think that would be accurate.  He said that if the owner was to check in before the guest and did not show then the guest reservation would be cancelled.  He said that if the owner and guest were to check in on the same date and the owner did not show that he believed it would be a case by case decision and most likely up to the resort.


----------



## dgalati

WhiskeyJack said:


> I asked this question of an Owner Care rep today.  He didn't seem that knowledgeable of the new rules.  Even said he and others have never been trained.  I had to send him the email because all he had seen so far was what was on the website.  So take his answer he gave me with this in mind.
> 
> He said that based on his "experience" so far that if the owner is scheduled to check in after the guest, and at least one day overlaps, then even if the owner does not show they will not make the guest move out after they have checked in.  That seems like a no brainer, I can't imagine the resort kicking someone out that has already checked in,  so I think that would be accurate.  He said that if the owner was to check in before the guest and did not show then the guest reservation would be cancelled.  He said that if the owner and guest were to check in on the same date and the owner did not show that he believed it would be a case by case decision and most likely up to the resort.


The policy is ripe for abuse by owners looking to rent vacations. I'm sure sales will put a spin on how you can buy more points to get around this paper tiger.


----------



## chapjim

WhiskeyJack said:


> I asked this question of an Owner Care rep today.  He didn't seem that knowledgeable of the new rules.  Even said he and others have never been trained.  I had to send him the email because all he had seen so far was what was on the website.  So take his answer he gave me with this in mind.
> 
> He said that based on his "experience" so far that if the owner is scheduled to check in after the guest, and at least one day overlaps, then even if the owner does not show they will not make the guest move out after they have checked in.  That seems like a no brainer, I can't imagine the resort kicking someone out that has already checked in,  so I think that would be accurate.  He said that if the owner was to check in before the guest and did not show then the guest reservation would be cancelled.  He said that if the owner and guest were to check in on the same date and the owner did not show that he believed it would be a case by case decision and most likely up to the resort.



I guess that's the most we could hope for under the circumstances.  Thanks for asking!


----------



## Jan M.

WhiskeyJack said:


> Even said he and others have never been trained



I thought someone posted either here on TUG or in one of the Facebook groups that the phone lines were closed for 90 minutes one day last week for the reps to have a meeting about this.

I'm sure any owner who's aware of the lists finds it frustrating and unacceptable that 10 days later we still don't have an updated and clear explanation on the website. We know the email that was sent out was glaringly incorrect. One example is that the limit of 10 reservations isn't something new in the last year or two! If Geoff Richards, the COO, doesn't know this you'd think he certainly has someone on his staff who's job it is to know these things and compose or review anything that gets sent out with his name on it.

I can't be the only one asking why they haven't updated the website to give a clear explanation. My guess is if they did that then they would have to stand behind it and they have no more confidence than some of us have in regards to the system handling guest's reservations for the dates/resorts on the lists correctly even most of the time.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> We know the email that was sent out was glaringly incorrect. One example is that the limit of 10 reservations isn't something new in the last year or two!


I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> I thought someone posted either here on TUG or in one of the Facebook groups that the phone lines were closed for 90 minutes one day last week for the reps to have a meeting about this.
> 
> I'm sure any owner who's aware of the lists finds it frustrating and unacceptable that 10 days later we still don't have an updated and clear explanation on the website. We know the email that was sent out was glaringly incorrect. One example is that the limit of 10 reservations isn't something new in the last year or two! If Geoff Richards, the COO, doesn't know or you'd think he certainly has someone on his staff who's job it is to know these things and compose or review anything that gets sent out with his name on it.
> 
> I can't be the only one asking why they haven't updated the website to give a clear explanation. My guess is if they did that then they would have to stand behind it and they have no more confidence than some of us have in regards to the system handling guest's reservations for the dates/resorts on the lists correctly even most of the time.


The confusion also leads to less reservations becoming rentals. What owner or renter wants to show up and find out reservation was cancelled? The daze and confuse strategy is right out of the sales teams playbook. Reading the posts here and on facebook it seems to be working out well to limit rentals at resorts during high demand times.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> I’m not sure why Wyndham can’t get their agents to understand their new policy - oh wait, it’s Wyndham, that’s why.
> 
> Here is the policy from the email:
> 
> • Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.
> 
> • For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.
> 
> “As long as the owner and guest reservations have an overlapping day, you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.”
> 
> That’s a quote. Of course, you are limited to no more than 10 units per night, less at smaller resorts.
> 
> Wes.


Its like lake effect snow. Don't count on what the weatherman says the night before. You just never know how much snow you will wake up to. You can get 3 foot while 5 miles down the road the neighbors barely get a inch.


----------



## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.





Eric B said:


> Newest email on the subject with a refinement that allows use of guest certificates twice per year in the Owner Priority periods.
> 
> See also https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/owner-guide/resources/reservations/owner-priority-reservations?utm_source=member-update_20210618&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=cw_geoff&utm_content=<strong>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The summer season is in full swing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear XXXXX Family,With the summer season in full swing, our resort teams are ready to welcome you back for memorable and fun-filled experiences. Whether it’s a relaxing beach getaway, an adventure-packed vacation in the mountains, or something in between, you have virtually unlimited opportunities to explore incredible destinations this summer.Vacation ReadyTo help ensure you enjoy your vacation experience, we remain committed to Vacation Ready, our enhanced health and safety measures. Our housekeeping teams are working in overdrive, and we continue to follow state and local mandates, where applicable.
> 
> We’re pleased to share many of your resort amenities have reopened for your enjoyment. We’ve also made several improvements around our resorts to enhance your experience, including curbside check-in to get you on your vacation safely and efficiently, and new wristbands that allow you to open your suite, access resort amenities, and unlock local deals.Prioritizing Owner ReservationsTo help you cross different destinations off your bucket list, we are continuing our efforts to prioritize owner reservations by limiting access by non-owners at select resorts during peak travel times. Since we began these efforts in March, we’ve heard feedback from many owners that you’ve been able to achieve your vacation plans and visit many popular destinations during your desired travel times — and that you’d like to see these options expanded even further. You’ve also told us how much you enjoy sharing your love of travel with family and friends, and spending time with them at our resorts during family reunions and other special occasions.
> 
> With owner feedback in mind, we’re making several enhancements to this effort, including:
> 
> •Adding even more resorts and travel dates where owner travel will be prioritized. *Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information *about the select destinations and travel periods so that you can plan your vacations accordingly.  •Allowing you to bring guests with you when you will be visiting these identified resorts during the select travel dates. As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, *you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like.*  •For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation from your annual allotment. Guest reservations during these peak times in excess of the two allowed will be subject to cancellation.
> You can read more about these updates here.
> 
> When I reflect on where we were a year ago compared to where we are today, it’s a journey none of us could have anticipated. Your wellbeing remains our top priority, and we will continue to adapt operations as local, state, and federal guidance evolves. While there may be a few bumps along the way, we are excited to see that so many people are able to get back on vacation — as owners, you understand better than anyone the powerful impact that vacations have in our lives. I hope we see you on vacation soon. Here’s to a safe, fun, and unforgettable summer!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> Geoff Richards
> Chief Operating Officer
> Wyndham Destinations



Even the information in the last bullet point is now questionable.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> Even the information in the last bullet point is now questionable.


Is it? It seems to me the email is quite clear and very likely reflects the intent of the new policy. It would be difficult to write something so specific by accident. My impression is that when drafting the website language they tried to simplify and condense that language which just made it all the more confusing. And then they didn’t train anyone on it and apparently didn’t share the email language with their staff.

But really, I was wondering what you meant when you referenced the preexisting 10 reservation limit, which wasn’t mentioned in the email at all as far as I could see.


----------



## ilya

So, now with the new clarification of 2 guest per year if not traveling with them, how many guest does Wyndham get to have with what they own?


----------



## ilya

Jan M. said:


> Even the information in the last bullet point is now questionable.




Wonder if this was meant to dazzle and confuse everyone who rents so they cancel all of their reservations... Only to find out "oops" this is what we really meant... Just maybe Wyndham was able to pick up some of those dropped reservations..


----------



## Jae1242

Can someone share a copy of the email wyndham sent out? I feel the website is not reliable. Wyndham could change any of it overnight with no warning (add dates/resorts). Calling OC to get permission/approval to travel with fam and friends is ridiculous..All these continued changes/restrictions made us realize that having a "deed" means nothing..


----------



## dioxide45

Jae1242 said:


> Can someone share a copy of the email wyndham sent out? I feel the website is not reliable. Wyndham could change any of it overnight with no warning (add dates/resorts). Calling OC to get permission/approval to travel with fam and friends is ridiculous..All these continued changes/restrictions made us realize that having a "deed" means nothing..











						Wyndham limiting access by non-owners during most sought-after dates/locations
					

FYI I have found I can make more than 1 reservation under the same name for the same dates at many resorts. I get the change name alert if it won’t wrk.




					tugbbs.com


----------



## paxsarah

Jae1242 said:


> Can someone share a copy of the email wyndham sent out? I feel the website is not reliable. Wyndham could change any of it overnight with no warning (add dates/resorts). Calling OC to get permission/approval to travel with fam and friends is ridiculous..All these continued changes/restrictions made us realize that having a "deed" means nothing..


Just above, Jan quoted Eric's earlier post that had the email in its entirety.


----------



## CO skier

ilya said:


> So, now with the new clarification of 2 guest per year if not traveling with them, how many guest does Wyndham get to have with what they own?


Zero, apparently, since people have looked and found nothing available through Extra Holidays for the affected dates and resorts.



ilya said:


> Wonder if this was meant to dazzle and confuse everyone who rents so they cancel all of their reservations... Only to find out "oops" this is what we really meant... Just maybe Wyndham was able to pick up some of those dropped reservations..


This must be the favorite conspiracy theory from the renters, because it keeps showing up in this thread with no evidence given that the cancelled reservations are appearing on Extra Holidays.


----------



## paxsarah

ilya said:


> *Wonder if this was meant to dazzle and confuse everyone who rents so they cancel all of their reservations...* Only to find out "oops" this is what we really meant... Just maybe Wyndham was able to pick up some of those dropped reservations..





CO skier said:


> This must be the favorite conspiracy theory from the renters, because it keeps showing up in this thread with no evidence given that the cancelled reservations are appearing on Extra Holidays.


It seems the first part, though, could be pretty accurate - for the time being, at least, it seems to have put off renters from pushing the boundaries of this latest policy. (I agree that the part about it all being a ploy to add to Extra Holidays inventory is a stretch.) Even though there seems to be an obvious loophole through booking an overlapping owner dummy reservation, and at the very least a renter should be able to rent two stays during restricted dates free and clear, it seems that renters are loathe to test either of those scenarios right now for fear of being burned (or through confusion about the policy).


----------



## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> Is it? It seems to me the email is quite clear and very likely reflects the intent of the new policy. It would be difficult to write something so specific by accident. My impression is that when drafting the website language they tried to simplify and condense that language which just made it all the more confusing. And then they didn’t train anyone on it and apparently didn’t share the email language with their staff.
> 
> But really, I was wondering what you meant when you referenced the preexisting 10 reservation limit, which wasn’t mentioned in the email at all as far as I could see.



You may not know about the nightly limit but owners who rent a lot certainly know. It's on page 247 of the 2018-2019 directory. No more than 10 units per resort, per night. For resorts with less than 50 units, no more than 20% of the units. This change was made several years ago so isn't a recent change. I checked an old directory, 2013-2014, and the nightly unit limit wasn't enacted yet when that directory went to print. Maybe someone else remembers what year it came about.

The email that came says " As long as the owner and guest reservation(s) have an overlapping day, *you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like." *Obviously that is incorrect.

Also in the email is "*Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information." * If the website was up-to-date we wouldn't be seeing all the posts here on TUG and in the Facebook groups about how to interpret it. Even the reps and owner care have been giving conflicting information.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> The email that came says "*you may reserve as many guest reservations as you would like." *Obviously that is incorrect.


I'm fully aware about the 10 reservation (or 20%) limit from the 2015 update/directory supplement. I just didn't see where you were seeing in the email. I now understand what you're considering incorrect. An alternate reading of the bolded text would be an implied understanding that it's subject to existing limits. Obviously they weren't lifting existing limits in the email - they were only adding new ones. Without quoting the entirety of Wyndham's policies and processes, one could assume that the existing 10 reservation limit still remains. Rather than arguing it is incorrect, I would argue that it's incomplete, and that by explicitly adding "(subject to existing limits)" it would have sufficed.



> Also in the email is "*Your owner website is the best place to find the most up-to-date information." *If the website was up-to-date we wouldn't be seeing all the posts here on TUG and in the Facebook groups about how to interpret it. Even the reps and owner care have been giving conflicting information.



I don't disagree with this at all, and I've been proclaiming it loudly here and on Facebook [edit: and on Wyndham's feedback tab]. They need to improve the language immediately.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> I checked an old directory, 2013-2014 and the nightly unit limit wasn't enacted yet when that directory went to print. Maybe someone else remembers what year it came about.


This file is the source.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I don't disagree with this at all, and I've been proclaiming it loudly here and on Facebook. They need to improve the language immediately.



Yesterday we dispatched a draft FAQ to one of the senior managers in Owner Care to help address the confusion that is rampant both here on TUG and on the FB groups.  We hope that Wyndham will consider publishing a FAQ to provide more clarity/answers and to address specific scenarios as well.


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yesterday we dispatched a draft FAQ to one of the senior managers in Owner Care to help address the confusion that is rampant both here on TUG and on the FB groups.  We hope that Wyndham will consider publishing a FAQ to provide more clarity/answers and to address specific scenarios as well.


Secondarily, if Wyndham could broaden the scope of the email addresses that receive the policy-related emails to every owner with a login (the account information that's editable) and not only the "point of contact" email (one per account), it would reduce the confusion of people who haven't been receiving those emails for whatever reason. Then at least everyone should be receiving the same critical information on the same timeline.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yesterday we dispatched a draft FAQ to one of the senior managers in Owner Care to help address the confusion that is rampant both here on TUG and on the FB groups. We hope that Wyndham will consider publishing a FAQ to provide more clarity/answers and to address specific scenarios as well.



I believe that is good. However the confusion that is rampant that concerns me rests with the VCs and Owner Care. They appear more confused than anyone posting here. 

Wyndham’s rush to get things out and not allow anyone time to adequately plan for the changes causes this horrible situation. 

Wes.


----------



## HitchHiker71

wjappraise said:


> I believe that is good. However the confusion that is rampant that concerns me rests with the VCs and Owner Care. They appear more confused than anyone posting here.
> 
> Wyndham’s rush to get things out and not allow anyone time to adequately plan for the changes causes this horrible situation.
> 
> Wes.



Let's stick to the problems we can actually resolve.  We have zero ability to help resolve process and training oriented issues between departments within Wyndham, and since Wyndham's own verbiage points to the website as the source for guidance/answers - a FAQ that can be included on the same webpage that lists the policy adjustment and impacted resort dates is the best way we can help Wyndham here.  That way if VCs/Owner Care are confused - simply point them to the source of truth - their own website complete with scenarios documented via a FAQ - for direct answers/clarity.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Let's stick to the problems we can actually resolve. We have zero ability to help resolve process and training oriented issues between departments within Wyndham, and since Wyndham's own verbiage points to the website as the source for guidance/answers - a FAQ that can be included on the same webpage that lists the policy adjustment and impacted resort dates is the best way we can help Wyndham here. That way if VCs/Owner Care are confused - simply point them to the source of truth - their own website complete with scenarios documented via a FAQ - for direct answers/clarity.



Agreed. To an extent. 
However we do need to keep the longer range view of the real issues ... and solutions. The VCs and Owner Care MUST be properly educated and informed, or all the FAQs will mean nothing. Sometimes to be outside the loop allows for a better vantage point. Forest and trees. 

No other credible Fortune 500 company relies on its end users to correct and educate its agents. 

Just my opinion. 

Wes.


----------



## 55plus

Bottom line, Wyndham should hire technical writers who won't just publish a bunch of words, but take time to study the wording and articulate the changes and updates.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> Secondarily, if Wyndham could broaden the scope of the email addresses that receive the policy-related emails to every owner with a login (the account information that's editable) and not only the "point of contact" email (one per account), it would reduce the confusion of people who haven't been receiving those emails for whatever reason. Then at least everyone should be receiving the same critical information on the same timeline.



I will add this to our tracking sheet as a process enhancement request.


----------



## ilya

CO skier said:


> Zero, apparently, since people have looked and found nothing available through Extra Holidays for the affected dates and resorts.
> 
> 
> This must be the favorite conspiracy theory from the renters, because it keeps showing up in this thread with no evidence given that the cancelled reservations are appearing on Extra Holidays.




They do advertise on many other sites than  Extra Holiday... Not saying that this is what they are doing but for such a big company to roll out policies that would not pass a writing exam in Elementary School seems odd.. Clearly they have very intelligent people working for them... Sometimes things are done by design... 

I would think they have the same policy for the points and contracts they own as every one else. .So I would assume they are allotted  the same guest certificates../overlapping reservations policy with what they own... Just curious how that would work...


----------



## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> The confusion also leads to less reservations becoming rentals. What owner or renter wants to show up and find out reservation was cancelled? The daze and confuse strategy is right out of the sales teams playbook. Reading the posts here and on facebook it seems to be working out well to limit rentals at resorts during high demand times.


Occam's Razor is a fitting model here.....


----------



## dgalati

Ty1on said:


> Occam's Razor is a fitting model here.....


*You sure its not Hanlon's razor?  
*_Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity._
In simpler words: some bad things happen not because of people having bad intentions, but because they did not think it through properly.


----------



## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> *You sure its not Hanlon's razor?  *
> _Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity._
> In simpler words: some bad things happen not because of people having bad intentions, but because they did not think it through properly.


Yes Hanlon's Razor, thank you.


----------



## wjappraise

Good lord. Razors? 

I attribute it to Gillette’s razor. Wyndham wants more money to personal care products for its bloated board. So it’s stopped spending on IT. 

On a serious note: 
I don’t care why. I care that we have an ineffective website. New policies purposely rolled out with only hours for the “owners” to absorb and adapt. Vacation specialists that spew inaccurate advice. That’s a terrible business model. 

Wes.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Extra Holidays currently has Easter Week at Bonnet Creek.  That is something we cannot book for guests, but Wyndham sure can.  

There are lots of sites Wyndham rents through, so if you think they are following their rules, you are assuming way too much.  I posted another website that Wyndham is renting through, and they own RCI, too.  However they can take inventory from us, they will do it.


----------



## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Extra Holidays currently has Easter Week at Bonnet Creek. That is something we cannot book for guests, but Wyndham sure can.
> 
> There are lots of sites Wyndham rents through, so if you think they are following their rules, you are assuming way too much. I posted another website that Wyndham is renting through, and they own RCI, too. However they can take inventory from us, they will do it.



Uh oh. There goes the Wyndham apologists’ preferred attack - “only conspiracy theorists believe Wyndham is not observing its own rules.” 

We have a new razor: 

Cindy’s razor: 

Never attribute to incompetence what is clearly attributed to Wyndham’s greed. 

Well played Cindy.


----------



## paxsarah

wjappraise said:


> Uh oh. There goes the Wyndham apologists’ preferred attack - “only conspiracy theorists believe Wyndham is not observing its own rules.”


There's a leap between the idea that Wyndham may not follow its own rules set for other owners, and the idea that Wyndham is intentionally confusing owners/renters so that they cancel reservations so that Wyndham can snap up those exact reservations for rentals. I wouldn't consider the former to be a conspiracy theory, but I would consider the latter.


----------



## rickandcindy23

paxsarah said:


> There's a leap between the idea that Wyndham may not follow its own rules set for other owners, and the idea that Wyndham is intentionally confusing owners/renters so that they cancel reservations so that Wyndham can snap up those exact reservations for rentals. I wouldn't consider the former to be a conspiracy theory, but I would consider the latter.


I company that will stand behind a sales' department's lies will do anything to make money.  Lying is lying, and this is all about their stockholders and their own bottom line.


----------



## wjappraise

paxsarah said:


> There's a leap between the idea that Wyndham may not follow its own rules set for other owners, and the idea that Wyndham is intentionally confusing owners/renters so that they cancel reservations so that Wyndham can snap up those exact reservations for rentals. I wouldn't consider the former to be a conspiracy theory, but I would consider the latter.



When each “benefit of the doubt” that is expected to be granted goes to the benefit of the large corporation which controls all of the assets, it’s time to stop assuming the best. 

While I share your view that the confusion factor isn’t deliberate so Wyndham can cancel reservations, I have to admit that Wyndham has used up any good will we have attributed to them. We now need to suspect all of their moves as having an unfair bias toward their support of EH. They’ve done a admirable job of making the conspiracy theorists in our group appear rational and logical. 

Wes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wjappraise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Extra Holidays currently has Easter Week at Bonnet Creek. That is something we cannot book for guests, but Wyndham sure can.
> 
> There are lots of sites Wyndham rents through, so if you think they are following their rules, you are assuming way too much. I posted another website that Wyndham is renting through, and they own RCI, too. However they can take inventory from us, they will do it.



I just verified this for myself. Cindy is right. 

There’s even A FOUR BEDROOM PRESIDENTIAL available on EH for Easter. 

Shame on you Wyndham!


----------



## wjappraise

wjappraise said:


> I just verified this for myself. Cindy is right.
> 
> There’s even A FOUR BEDROOM PRESIDENTIAL available on EH for Easter.
> 
> Shame on you Wyndham!



And now the four bedroom is gone! Likely rented by a non-owner. So when disenfranchised owners complain they couldn’t get the four bedroom for their family - Michael Brown can blame “the mega renters”. 

And of course, who’s the biggest mega renter? You guessed it - Extra Holidays by Wyndham. 

Terrible. Just terrible.


----------



## 55plus

That Four Bedroom Presidential over Easter was probably booked 13 months out and before the restrictions were put in place. This means the restrictions won't apply next year or the right-hand isn't talking to the left hand. Only time will tell.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> That Four Bedroom Presidential over Easter was probably booked 13 months out and before the restrictions were put in place. This means the restrictions won't apply next year or the right-hand isn't talking to the left hand. Only time will tell.



Please don’t offer weak excuses for Wyndham. This conduct is inexcusable.


----------



## 55plus

Or maybe it was listed by mistake and EH took it down.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> Or maybe it was listed by mistake and EH took it down.



Stop. 

They didn’t take all the other rooms down. 

Accept it. Michael Brown lied to you.


----------



## paxsarah

Or was it put up by an owner and counts as one of their two free passes? Are those allowed on EH? It seems that Wyndham’s new policy is more complex than they apparently realized it was.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> Or was it put up by an owner and counts as one of their two free passes? Are those allowed on EH? It seems that Wyndham’s new policy is more complex than they apparently realized it was.


Oh well shit happens!


----------



## lost patience

55plus said:


> That Four Bedroom Presidential over Easter was probably booked 13 months out and before the restrictions were put in place. This means the restrictions won't apply next year or the right-hand isn't talking to the left hand. Only time will tell.


Restrictions still apply:   Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation* (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates).*
They could be using 1 of their 2 per year.  But again, you and I and anyone else had equal opportunity to use our membership to book that unit at 12:01 EST 13 months ahead.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> Or was it put up by an owner and counts as one of their two free passes? Are those allowed on EH? It seems that Wyndham’s new policy is more complex than they apparently realized it was.



Does anyone have direct experience using EH that can validate if a GC is actually used/consumed when an EH rental contract is processed and fulfilled? Curious, I’ve never done so myself. I checked the T&Cs on the EH site and do not see any reference to GC usage anywhere - which strikes me as odd given how thoroughly the T&Cs are documented otherwise. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Does anyone have direct experience using EH that can validate if a GC is actually used/consumed when an EH rental contract is processed and fulfilled? Curious, I’ve never done so myself. I checked the T&Cs on the EH site and do not see any reference to GC usage anywhere - which strikes me as odd given how thoroughly the T&Cs are documented otherwise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



From my own experience- a guest certificate is not used. 

Wes.


----------



## Jan M.

I automatically assumed that 4BR Presidential over Easter was an owner's reservation. It may have been booked well before the new list came out. The owner can still use one of their two allowed guest confirmations although I thought that when you rented through Extra Holidays you weren't charged a guest reservation.


----------



## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> Does anyone have direct experience using EH that can validate if a GC is actually used/consumed when an EH rental contract is processed and fulfilled? Curious, I’ve never done so myself. I checked the T&Cs on the EH site and do not see any reference to GC usage anywhere - which strikes me as odd given how thoroughly the T&Cs are documented otherwise.





wjappraise said:


> From my own experience- a guest certificate is not used.





Jan M. said:


> I automatically assumed that 4BR Presidential over Easter was an owner's reservation. It may have been booked well before the new list came out. The owner can still use one of their two allowed guest confirmations although I thought that when you rented through Extra Holidays you weren't charged a guest reservation.


EH features were the following unless it’s changed in the last year or since the pandemic.
1. Owners are not charged a GC on a reservation.
2. They will not take Presidential or PR unit reservations.
3. They don’t take reservations less than 60 days out, no discounts & or upgrades at the time you give EH your reservation


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> I automatically assumed that 4BR Presidential over Easter was an owner's reservation. It may have been booked well before the new list came out. The owner can still use one of their two allowed guest confirmations although I thought that when you rented through Extra Holidays you weren't charged a guest reservation.



So that’s an interesting twist then. The updated GC policy _only_ impacts the use of GCs for specific resort rentals during specific blackout periods. 

If EH doesn’t consume GCs, then in theory owners renting via EH would not in any way be impacted by the updated GC usage limitations effective 6/18. 

Wyndham may actually be honoring the same usage limitations for EH at least for now - but if my logical inferences are correct here - the updated GC policy in no way applies directly to EH for any owner based rentals for the resorts and blackout dates in scope. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/i]


----------



## geist1223

Aren't almost all rentals by Wyndham Guest Rentals? Do the Rules apply to Wyndham no GC around certain holidays?


----------



## ilya

paxsarah said:


> There's a leap between the idea that Wyndham may not follow its own rules set for other owners, and the idea that Wyndham is intentionally confusing owners/renters so that they cancel reservations so that Wyndham can snap up those exact reservations for rentals. I wouldn't consider the former to be a conspiracy theory, but I would consider the latter.



I am not sure I would call it conspiracy theory but it sure does seem odd that there is so much confusion over the policy and no answers as of now... There never should have been such a poorly written policy...
I am not a mega renter so it doesn't really matter to me but down the road policy changes will eventually..
My curiosity if Wyndham is allowed to use GC just as every one else was just answered...


----------



## dgalati

ilya said:


> I am not sure I would call it conspiracy theory but it sure does seem odd that there is so much confusion over the policy and no answers as of now... There never should have been such a poorly written policy...
> I am not a mega renter so it doesn't really matter to me but down the road policy changes will eventually..
> My curiosity if Wyndham is allowed to use GC just as every one else was just answered...


I will assume Wyndham is allowed to use GC just as every one else just answered... Or  is it Wyndham needs no GC to use on EH. IMHO its the latter. Seems to be a loophole for corporate.


----------



## paxsarah

dgalati said:


> I will assume Wyndham is allowed to use GC just as every one else just answered... Or  is it Wyndham needs no GC to use on EH. IMHO its the latter. Seems to be a loophole for corporate.


Is it a loophole if that's basically how it's spelled out in the VOA documents?


pacodemountainside said:


> 11.08 Wyndham Use. *In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time*, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use.



Since obviously Wyndham is not an individual, that right to make reservations seems to extend to Wyndham's ability to then allow individuals of their choosing (through rentals, party weekends, etc.) to use those reservations. In fact, "guests" are mentioned nowhere in those VOA documents. I would assume the entire construct of guest certificates exists only in the program guidelines from the directory, which of course Wyndham reserves the right to change as it sees necessary, and I would assume if it's not spelled out in the directory (or the website, which I'm sure could be argued is now the ever-evolving current version of the directory), Wyndham can do what it wants in terms of guests on reservations with its points.



pacodemountainside said:


> 11.01 Directory. Set forth below in summary form are certain of the most important features of the Plan. The rules, regulations, guidelines, policies and procedures related to the allocation of Points to the Trust Properties and the use of Points by Members in connection with the Trust Properties and the Plan are fully described in the Directory. In the event of a conflict between the information described in this Article XI and the information set forth in the Directory, the information set forth in the Directory shall be controlling. Wyndham, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to amend the Directory and the provisions therein from time to time as may be necessary to implement the Plan.


----------



## ilya

paxsarah said:


> Is it a loophole if that's basically how it's spelled out in the VOA documents?
> 
> 
> Since obviously Wyndham is not an individual, that right to make reservations seems to extend to Wyndham's ability to then allow individuals of their choosing (through rentals, party weekends, etc.) to use those reservations. In fact, "guests" are mentioned nowhere in those VOA documents. I would assume the entire construct of guest certificates exists only in the program guidelines from the directory, which of course Wyndham reserves the right to change as it sees necessary, and I would assume if it's not spelled out in the directory (or the website, which I'm sure could be argued is now the ever-evolving current version of the directory), Wyndham can do what it wants in terms of guests on reservations with its points.



I was at Ocean Walk 2 years ago and saw buses of people getting off to check in... It was part of a travel group that does yearly groups to Multiple resorts... They were able to all (150 rooms ) get an oceanfront room, all in the north tower... While as an deeded owner had a side view...My room was very nice , though.. Talking to the guest, these rooms were booked well in advance and they were very happy to say they were guaranteed preferential treatment..

My point, Wyndham does have many ways of renting out rooms ..


----------



## wjappraise

Maybe I should go buy an aluminum foil (tin foil for my fellow Boomers) hat. But isn’t it clear that Wyndham uses EH to move its own holdings at a high price? When Clearwater first opened, the front desk man told me more than half the rooms were occupied by EH renters. And those rooms came from Wyndham directly. 

Sales told me (I know you can’t believe sales) that Wyndham holds billions of annual points and uses EH to bolster their bottom line. And that’s why the “can’t use your points for commercial ventures” would never be legally enforceable, as Wyndham’s use of its points for rental purposes would easily be exposed if it ever came to court. And they would make a lot of bluster about the clause but never dare try to enforce it legally. 

While “protecting the little owner” from the mega renter sounds galant, it’s simply not true. Wyndham is using all its resources to monopolize the rental market. I would love to be wrong as I’d like to have more access for our extended family ownership, but the facts lead me to other realities. Wyndham is the mafia folks. 

Ok. I’ll take my hat off now. 

Wes.


----------



## paxsarah

wjappraise said:


> But isn’t it clear that Wyndham uses EH to move its own holdings at a high price?


I don't think that's a conspiracy theory at all. It's spelled out in the VOA excerpt that I posted above that they can do what they want with their points as an owner. It's also spelled out that they can take a percentage of availability inside 60 and 30 days for their own purposes if they compensate for it. I don't dispute that Wyndham would like to make as much $$ as they can through EH - and they're fully allowed to do so. What's not spelled out (and I consider a conspiracy) is Wyndham intentionally driving people to cancel so that Wyndham can take those reservations for rental.

Wyndham making it difficult for owner-renters while doing their best to rake in big bucks through EH by renting Wyndham's owned inventory? Like it or not, yes, I'm sure that's a big part of their business strategy. Wyndham making it difficult for owner-renters while stealing their cancelled reservations (outside of what's allowed for in the trust docs) to rent on EH? I haven't seen any evidence of that.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Maybe I should go buy an aluminum foil (tin foil for my fellow Boomers) hat. But isn’t it clear that Wyndham uses EH to move its own holdings at a high price? When Clearwater first opened, the front desk man told me more than half the rooms were occupied by EH renters. And those rooms came from Wyndham directly.
> 
> Sales told me (I know you can’t believe sales) that Wyndham holds billions of annual points and uses EH to bolster their bottom line. And that’s why the “can’t use your points for commercial ventures” would never be legally enforceable, as Wyndham’s use of its points for rental purposes would easily be exposed if it ever came to court. And they would make a lot of bluster about the clause but never dare try to enforce it legally.
> 
> While “protecting the little owner” from the mega renter sounds galant, it’s simply not true. Wyndham is using all its resources to monopolize the rental market. I would love to be wrong as I’d like to have more access for our extended family ownership, but the facts lead me to other realities. Wyndham is the mafia folks.
> 
> Ok. I’ll take my hat off now.
> 
> Wes.


Yea but at least the Mafia protected your turf in exchange for a weekly donation which they kindly asked for.


----------



## Braindead

wjappraise said:


> But isn’t it clear that Wyndham uses EH to move its own holdings at a high price? When Clearwater first opened, the front desk man told me more than half the rooms were occupied by EH renters. And those rooms came from Wyndham directly.


EH also has a list of resorts that they will take owners reservations.
Clearwater was not on the list around a year ago.
All Clearwater availability on EH is not owner reservations unless you count Wyndham as an owner.


----------



## joestein

So glad I gave back all my points right before COVID.

Happy to renting a week at Marriot Ocean Watch this August for around $300 more than my annual maintenance.


----------



## Ty1on

joestein said:


> So glad I gave back all my points right before COVID.
> 
> Happy to renting a week at Marriot Ocean Watch this August for around $300 more than my annual maintenance.



What does this have to do with the topic of the thread?


----------



## rickandcindy23

joestein said:


> So glad I gave back all my points right before COVID.
> 
> Happy to renting a week at Marriot Ocean Watch this August for around $300 more than my annual maintenance.


That was good timing.  I think it will be tougher to use Ovations in the future.  A lot of "mega renters" will want to divest of the points that don't have status attached to them.  I hope Wyndham continues to take them back.  And of course your post is appropriate for this thread.  

I am thinking of getting rid of 2/3 of our points (which aren't Founders/ Platinum) and moving toward Marriott for our vacation dollars.


----------



## steve_solo

On the thread topic - I have Sun-Friday reserved at Ocean Boulevard in July. I was going to give it to my daughter with a GC so she and my grandkids could go to the beach.
Will Wyndham cancel this out, or does it only do that if Friday and Sat nights are involved?


----------



## Ty1on

steve_solo said:


> On the thread topic - I have Sun-Friday reserved at Ocean Boulevard in July. I was going to give it to my daughter with a GC so she and my grandkids could go to the beach.
> Will Wyndham cancel this out, or does it only do that if Friday and Sat nights are involved?



Ocean Blvd isn't on the list, so I think you're okay?


----------



## Jan M.

Ty1on said:


> Ocean Blvd isn't on the list, so I think you're okay?



Ocean Boulevard IS on the list for weekends in July and August!


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> Ocean Boulevard IS on the list for weekends in July and August!





Ty1on said:


> Ocean Blvd isn't on the list, so I think you're okay?


So sad Wyndham has made it impossible to know what is allowable to rent.


----------



## 55plus

steve_solo said:


> On the thread topic - I have Sun-Friday reserved at Ocean Boulevard in July. I was going to give it to my daughter with a GC so she and my grandkids could go to the beach.
> Will Wyndham cancel this out, or does it only do that if Friday and Sat nights are involved?


I would think if a guest has the same last name as an owner Wyndham would make an exception. That would help with this issue. But not all children have the same last name, especially the married daughters. It would be almost impossible to rent only to people who have the same last name as the owner. This can help Wyndham control the commercial venture issue during the restricted timeframes.


----------



## Ty1on

Jan M. said:


> Ocean Boulevard IS on the list for weekends in July and August!


I finally found the post with the link to Geoff Richards' communication.  It's on the list for weekends only (July is all I'm looking at), so it seems like steve_solo is still okay sending his daughter sun-fri.


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> I would think if a guest has the same last name as an owner Wyndham would make an exception. That would help with this issue. But not all children have the same last name, especially the married daughters. It would be almost impossible to rent only to people who have the same last name as the owner. This can help Wyndham control the commercial venture issue during the restricted timeframes.


I don't think so.  I think your name has to match exactly.  That is why our kids are on our deeds for Wyndham.  They count as owners, too, and there is the ability to put their name on the reservation as an owner with no guest fee.  It's a very good thing that we insisted they be on the platinum ownership because our son goes to Bali Hai this Saturday without a guest certificate fee, and our daughter will be at Bonnet Creek in October as an owner of record.  So it works out great for us.  It's something one should consider before buying Wyndham.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> I would think if a guest has the same last name as an owner Wyndham would make an exception. That would help with this issue. But not all children have the same last name, especially the married daughters. It would be almost impossible to rent only to people who have the same last name as the owner. This can help Wyndham control the commercial venture issue during the restricted timeframes.



No. They won’t make an exception. 
If Steve wants the weekend - he will need to rent a room from the largest mega renter out there - Extra Holidays.


----------



## wjappraise

And ... Extra Holidays has weekends available for July. 

Double standards. Should we be surprised?


----------



## joestein

Ty1on said:


> What does this have to do with the topic of the thread?



Because of all the limitations and issues that Wyndham is imposing.


----------



## dgalati

steve_solo said:


> On the thread topic - I have Sun-Friday reserved at Ocean Boulevard in July. I was going to give it to my daughter with a GC so she and my grandkids could go to the beach.
> Will Wyndham cancel this out, or does it only do that if Friday and Sat nights are involved?





Ty1on said:


> Ocean Blvd isn't on the list, so I think you're okay?





wjappraise said:


> No. They won’t make an exception.
> If Steve wants the weekend - he will need to rent a room from the largest mega renter out there - Extra Holidays.


Can anyone say for sure what the GC policy is during the black out dates?


----------



## wjappraise

joestein said:


> Because of all the limitations and issues that Wyndham is imposing.



It’s interesting that many of us have wondered how Wyndham will market their product to the Gen Z and millennial potential buyers. 

I’m wondering if it will be an entirely new dynamic involving prepaid or discounted reservations through EH? Many consumers of those ages balk at the costs and commitment involved with true timeshare purchases or even the hybrid form (points based) that Wyndham uses. Perhaps the next generation of “owners” will only have the option of procurement of rooms through EH. 

The only impediment to that new strategy would be the existing “owners” who hold rights of ownership. By systematically, but slowly, eroding those rights of ownership, those owners would willingly relinquish their holdings. But they won’t appeal to the courts or antitrust agencies to investigate Wyndham’s actions, just like the proverbial frog who will sit in a pot that is slowly warmed until he dies. 

Wes


----------



## paxsarah

As I read it, the weekends in July are Friday and Saturday nights only. I would think a guest checking in on Sunday and checking out on Friday (i.e. the last night being Thursday) is safe. What am I missing?


----------



## Ty1on

dgalati said:


> Can anyone say for sure what the GC policy is during the black out dates?


You already know the answer....we can't.  Even if we find the latest list and recite it to you, it says "may be cancelled," not "will be cancelled."  That seems intentionally vague.


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> And ... Extra Holidays has weekends available for July.
> 
> Double standards. Should we be surprised?


Could you post a screenshot of the Ocean Blvd availability and how you are searching for it, because when I search Extra Holidays for Ocean Blvd in July, I do not see anything available.  (Screenshot attached.)

With Bigfoot "sightings", there are at least some pictures.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> Could you post a screenshot of the Ocean Blvd availability and how you are searching for it, because when I search Extra Holidays for Ocean Blvd in July, I do not see anything available. (Screenshot attached.)
> 
> With Bigfoot "sightings", there are at least some pictures.



It isn’t now but it was earlier. I forget that you’re a Wyndham apologist. I’ll upload photos of plenty of resorts that shouldn’t have available rooms but do. 

In the meantime keep your head in the sand. And do you need photos of the moon landing? You probably think that’s a hoax too. 

Wes.


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> It isn’t now but it was earlier...
> 
> Wes.


Oh, yeah, sure.  Well, the next time you find a 4 Bedroom Presidential that Wyndham apparently does not accept into Extra Holiday, or Ocean Blvd in July, or any other "instantly vanishing Bigfoot sighting," please include at least a shred of evidence.


----------



## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> Oh, yeah, sure. Well, the next time you find a 4 Bedroom Presidential that Wyndham apparently does not accept into Extra Holiday, or Ocean Blvd in July, or any other "instantly vanishing Bigfoot sighting," please include at least a shred of evidence.



I noticed you conveniently went silent when Cindy reported the Easter availability at Bonnet Creek. Must have killed you. 

We notice your duplicity. Just admit you were wrong. We understand. 

Wes.


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> I noticed you conveniently went silent when Cindy reported the Easter availability at Bonnet Creek. Must have killed you.
> 
> We notice your duplicity. Just admit you were wrong. We understand.
> 
> Wes.


Show us the picture of Bigfoot that you seem to find so easily, but no one else can.  Then ...


----------



## Cyrus24

I believe this 3BR is during the Blackout Period.  If someone was looking for evidence of an Extra Holiday booking option, here it is.  No way I'd pay that, but there are those who would.


----------



## Cyrus24

Here is another.


----------



## 55plus

Documentation, documentation, documentation is a way to deal with this matter. Everytime anyone sees a rental on EH or any other vacation rental platform take a screenshot and email it to the powers at Wyndham along with a screenshot or link to the restricted timeframes. Explain the issue and ask, why the double standard? It's obvious the right hand doesn't talk to the left hand at Wyndham.

Can anyone on TUG provide email addresses for those in power at Wyndham to use for a Wyndham Double Standard? campaign?


----------



## troy12n

Cyrus24 said:


> I believe this 3BR is during the Blackout Period.  If someone was looking for evidence of an Extra Holiday booking option, here it is.  No way I'd pay that, but there are those who would.



I have not been following the dates, but I don't think April 2022 is not part of the dates. I'm confused why anything from April next year is even on there unless maybe someone has a fixed week that they sent to Wyndham to rent out through Extra Holidays?


----------



## Cyrus24

troy12n said:


> I have not been following the dates, but I don't think April 2022 is not part of the dates. I'm confused why anything from April next year is even on there unless maybe someone has a fixed week that they sent to Wyndham to rent out through Extra Holidays?


It's on the Blackout List, feel free to check.  And, it's easy to book an April Vacation (inside the 10 months).


----------



## CO skier

Cyrus24 said:


> Here is another.
> View attachment 37182


So, there are the "smoking guns" -- with "5 available" for the 2 bedrooms, at that.

Now the questions become, "Is this mal-intent on the part of Wyndham" or is it negligence - those responsible for booking Extra Holidays for Wyndham were not adequately informed/trained?

If it is a plot on Wyndham's part, why are not a lot more of the cancellations appearing on Extra Holidays?

Or is there simply a double standard?


----------



## comicbookman

am I missing something or do neither of the above reservations show at what resorts they are for?  The blackout is not at all resorts.


----------



## tschwa2

comicbookman said:


> am I missing something or do neither of the above reservations show at what resorts they are for?  The blackout is not at all resorts.


top left corner- Wyndham Bonnet Creek


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> I have not been following the dates, but I don't think April 2022 is not part of the dates. I'm confused why anything from April next year is even on there unless maybe someone has a fixed week that they sent to Wyndham to rent out through Extra Holidays?





dgalati said:


> The blackout dates are into 2022. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't become a permanent policy.


The updated list show 2022 dates. The Confusion is by design.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> So, there are the "smoking guns" -- with "5 available" for the 2 bedrooms, at that.
> 
> Now the questions become, "Is this mal-intent on the part of Wyndham" or is it negligence - those responsible for booking Extra Holidays for Wyndham were not adequately informed/trained?
> 
> If it is a plot on Wyndham's part, why are not a lot more of the cancellations appearing on Extra Holidays?
> 
> Or is there simply a double standard?


The black out dates and restriction rule is so confusing EH is also baffled on what is allowed or not!


----------



## tschwa2

It's also possible that those were given to EH before the new restrictions came out; much like if an owner already had a guest cert on a reservation before a rule comes out.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> It's also possible that those were given to EH before the new restrictions came out; much like if an owner already had a guest cert on a reservation before a rule comes out.


Wink wink!


----------



## Cyrus24

tschwa2 said:


> It's also possible that those were given to EH before the new restrictions came out; much like if an owner already had a guest cert on a reservation before a rule comes out.


Highly doubt it based on many other data points.
- I was told by an EH consultant last week that they were cancelling listings that hit blackout dates
- There are no listings for blackout dates at WBC between now and Easter 2022 (suggesting that all listings were cancelled, per above point)
- These listings were not showing as recently as Monday this week (last time I checked).

The fact that they are there suggests to me that the groups are not communicating.  I doubt that there will be listings for Easter 2022, soon.  If the listings stay there, then Wyndham is working the system to their advantage.


----------



## ladawgfan

Wasn't the "overlapping reservation by owner" exception previously included on the website? If so it seems to have been removed. Have they changed the rules on us again without letting any of us know?


----------



## 55plus

dlehrhart said:


> Wasn't the "overlapping reservation by owner" exception previously included on the website? If so it seems to have been removed. Have they changed the rules on us again without letting any of us know?


My suggestion is to take a screenshot of the rules you're playing under before you make a guest reservation so you have something to fall back on if Wyndham changes the rules again after you begin playing and they penalizes you.


----------



## ladawgfan

Sorry for my earlier post. Just went back in this thread and found where this exception was in the email / letter version sent by Wyndham, which a lot of us never received.


----------



## Lisa P

wjappraise said:


> When Clearwater first opened, the front desk man told me more than half the rooms were occupied by EH renters. And those rooms came from Wyndham directly.


When a resort first opens, all or most of the inventory is owned by the developer and only a portion is made available to owners to reserve, with the idea that they may love it and opt to buy more points at that home resort. The bulk of the initial inventory would be rented out as a revenue source to support ongoing construction.



wjappraise said:


> Wyndham is using all its resources to monopolize the rental market. I would love to be wrong as I’d like to have more access for our extended family ownership, but the facts lead me to other realities. Wyndham is the mafia folks.


Over the last 2 decades, I've seen innumerable online posts by DVC members, Wyndham owners, and other points system owners who were _furious_ that there was no availability for them to book a desired vacation while they were able to see rental availability directly or indirectly from the developer. Developers and resort management companies always control a certain amount of inventory (for maintenance, through foreclosure, or buy-backs). They usually have ways of acquiring even more inventory during a "breakage" period (the last weeks or months before check-in) when there are unreserved units, which they rent out to the public.

The timeshare developer and/or resort management company is (obviously) a commercial business. Rules that restrict individuals from using their timeshare as a commercial business would benefit _both_ the small owners and the developer and/or resort management company by preventing such intense competition for them both. Renting out developer/manager-owned timeshare time is part of the industry business model, imho. Nothing new. Always frustrating for us "little guy" owners but not in any way unique to Wyndham.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> The black out dates and restriction rule is so confusing EH is also baffled on what is allowed or not!


The blacked-out resorts and dates are straightforward and simple to understand by anyone with a 2021 and 2022 calendar.  Someone(s) in Extra Holidays did not get the memo or did not fully comprehend the resorts and dates.  (This would explain why the owner cancellations are not appearing on Extra Holidays across most or all of the affected resorts.)

Since Extra Holidays is not part of Club Wyndham, the offending reservations will not show up on Club Wyndham's radar for cancellation.

If this is true, does it demonstrate negligence on the part of Wyndham?  Yes, and it can be easily corrected.

If true, does this demonstrate "intent" on the part of Wyndham to defraud owners negatively affected by the owner priority policy?  No.


----------



## Jan M.

dlehrhart said:


> Sorry for my earlier post. Just went back in this thread and found where this exception was in the email / letter version sent by Wyndham, which a lot of us never received.



I would only go by what's on the website. You may have missed earlier posts with some of us discussing what was in the email being inaccurate or needing clarified. The second bullet point says the owners can have unlimited guest reservations which isn't true.


----------



## lost patience

lost patience said:


> I just got off the phone with Wyndham.....     I have several units booked for July 2 weekend.  Most of the group arrives on July 2.  I don't arrive until July 3.  I had applied guest names to 2 of the reservations, but not the other 3.  The VC told me that my reservations booked prior to June 18 for a group going to Vegas would not be impacted by the new restrictions as they were booked prior to June 18.  I read him the words from the website and he retracted his statement and told me I had to arrive on July 2 and leave one in my name.  I then booked a 2N starting July 3 in my name - I likely will not use it as I'll be staying in the 2br.  We booked these so that each of us had our own rooms already.    I asked if adding this unit would solve the problem that was created by a short notice policy change.  He transferred me to owner care.  Owner care said that would not work as I had to check in on the same night as everyone else.  I then read the words to her from the email.  She put me on hold and asked someone else.    She returned with "yes" that will work.  End result - I'm out additional points.  There is one less unit available for the July 2 weekend at one of the resorts on the restricted list.  Plus vacation counselors and owner care are not sure what's going on either.


Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. *****  AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email.  As well as the dialog with VC and OC above..   I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled.  The points and guest confirmation were returned.  Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night.  We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan.  Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name.  Cancelling the 3rd.


----------



## comicbookman

tschwa2 said:


> top left corner- Wyndham Bonnet Creek


Thanks


----------



## dgalati

lost patience said:


> Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. *****  AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email.  As well as the dialog with VC and OC above..   I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled.  The points and guest confirmation were returned.  Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night.  We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan.  Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name.  Cancelling the 3rd.


So sorry to hear this. I hope you can rectify the situation and rooms are available so C/S can right this unbelievable mess.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> The blacked-out resorts and dates are straightforward and simple to understand by anyone with a 2021 and 2022 calendar.  Someone(s) in Extra Holidays did not get the memo or did not fully comprehend the resorts and dates.  (This would explain why the owner cancellations are not appearing on Extra Holidays across most or all of the affected resorts.)
> 
> Since Extra Holidays is not part of Club Wyndham, the offending reservations will not show up on Club Wyndham's radar for cancellation.
> 
> If this is true, does it demonstrate negligence on the part of Wyndham?  Yes, and it can be easily corrected.
> 
> If true, does this demonstrate "intent" on the part of Wyndham to defraud owners negatively affected by the owner priority policy?  No.





lost patience said:


> Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. *****  AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email.  As well as the dialog with VC and OC above..   I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled.  The points and guest confirmation were returned.  Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night.  We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan.  Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name.  Cancelling the 3rd.



@CO skier reading the above post the restrictions and blackout dats are not so straightforward and simple as they may seem.


----------



## ilya

ilya said:


> I was at Ocean Walk 2 years ago and saw buses of people getting off to check in... It was part of a travel group that does yearly groups to Multiple resorts... They were able to all (150 rooms ) get an oceanfront room, all in the north tower... While as an deeded owner had a side view...My room was very nice , though.. Talking to the guest, these rooms were booked well in advance and they were very happy to say they were guaranteed preferential treatment..
> 
> My point, Wyndham does have many ways of renting out rooms ..




I might also add these rooms were rented out cheaper than my  MF.. If they really wanted to help owners they would cut back on the back door rentals...
Like I mentioned before of what I overheard the front desk commenting on the multi billion purchase of all the rental sites... VRBO.. REDWEEK..ETC...Does anyone know if this is true?

Another way they can help owners try to book is to fix the online system... It was mentioned that there are resorts that show availability but unable to book...
I am surprised that has not been addressed as a problem with access to be able to book...


----------



## Jan M.

lost patience said:


> Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. *****  AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email.  As well as the dialog with VC and OC above..   I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled.  The points and guest confirmation were returned.  Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night.  We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan.  Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name.  Cancelling the 3rd.



I may be missing something and I'm not trying to be mean. Are you surprised that your third guest reservation was cancelled?

From what I understand the system is programmed to cancel anything over your yearly allotment of the two permitted guest reservations for the resorts and dates on the lists. Owner care cannot override the system.

If I'm wrong about this HitchHiker71 will be able to give us the correct information.


----------



## Sandi Bo

ilya said:


> I might also add these rooms were rented out cheaper than my  MF.. If they really wanted to help owners they would cut back on the back door rentals...
> Like I mentioned before of what I overheard the front desk commenting on the multi billion purchase of all the rental sites... VRBO.. REDWEEK..ETC...Does anyone know if this is true?
> 
> Another way they can help owners try to book is to fix the online system... It was mentioned that there are resorts that show availability but unable to book...
> I am surprised that has not been addressed as a problem with access to be able to book...


It's must easier to blame 'megarenters' (yet to be defined) than fix the online system.


----------



## dioxide45

ilya said:


> Like I mentioned before of what I overheard the front desk commenting on the multi billion purchase of all the rental sites... VRBO.. REDWEEK..ETC...Does anyone know if this is true?


First up, there is no way they could afford to buy all the rental sites. AirBnB is worth more than the entire hotel industry combined. Wyndham doesn't have enough money to do it. Vrbo is owned by Expedia. I doubt Wyndham cares enough about Redweek. Another thing , these companies need to be for sale before they could be bought by Wyndham. If the owners of Redweek don't want to sell, then Wyndham can't buy them.


----------



## Ty1on

dioxide45 said:


> First up, there is no way they could afford to buy all the rental sites. AirBnB is worth more than the entire hotel industry combined. Wyndham doesn't have enough money to do it. Vrbo is owned by Expedia. I doubt Wyndham cares enough about Redweek. Another thing , these companies need to be for sale before they could be bought by Wyndham. If the owners of Redweek don't want to sell, then Wyndham can't buy them.



100% correct on everything except that sometimes suitors knock on the door with an offer to good to pass up. 

 Wyndham hasn't taken over the entire vertical and doesn't have the means to do so if it wanted to.


----------



## ilya

Jan M. said:


> I may be missing something and I'm not trying to be mean. Are you surprised that your third guest reservation was cancelled?
> 
> From what I understand the system is programmed to cancel anything over your yearly allotment of the two permitted guest reservations for the resorts and dates on the lists. Owner care cannot override the system.
> 
> If I'm wrong about this HitchHiker71 will be able to give us the correct information.




I thought owners were allowed unlimited reservations as long as the owner was in one of the overlapping?


----------



## ilya

dioxide45 said:


> First up, there is no way they could afford to buy all the rental sites. AirBnB is worth more than the entire hotel industry combined. Wyndham doesn't have enough money to do it. Vrbo is owned by Expedia. I doubt Wyndham cares enough about Redweek. Another thing , these companies need to be for sale before they could be bought by Wyndham. If the owners of Redweek don't want to sell, then Wyndham can't buy them.




Guess it was another sales ploy to get renters to buy...


----------



## paxsarah

ilya said:


> unlimited


("unlimited" obviously within existing limitations such as the 10 unit/20% rule and the owner's own point and GC limitations)

But yes, that's how I understood it.


----------



## Jan M.

ilya said:


> I thought owners were allowed unlimited reservations as long as the owner was in one of the overlapping?



You've owned long enough to know that's not correct. Also why are you now even saying this as you've been posting in this thread and it's been discussed at length?

Since 2015 the ruling has been that an owner may only reserve a maximum of 10 units per resort per night. For resorts with less than 50 units its a maximum of 20%.


----------



## ilya

Jan M. said:


> You've owned long enough to know that's not correct. Also why are you now even saying this as you've been posting in this thread and it's been discussed at length?
> 
> Since 2015 the ruling has been that an owner may only reserve a maximum of 10 units per resort per night. For resorts with less than 50 units its a maximum of 20%.




I am not talking about the old rules.., I never had to deal with the limits...So, no... I would not know..  Only owned for 4 or so years...

 What I am taking about is the  new restrictions.. I thought on the site or email... It was stated as long as owners are staying at the resort at the same time  they can have unlimited guests.. If not going with your guest then only allowed 2 guest confirmations per year.. I never got the email so I would not know what that said... only going by what I read on here...


----------



## Sandi Bo

lost patience said:


> Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. *****  AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email.  As well as the dialog with VC and OC above..   I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled.  The points and guest confirmation were returned.  Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night.  We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan.  Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name.  Cancelling the 3rd.


Uggg.. So sorry this happened to you.  Biggest fear -- them cancelling a legitimate reservation.  Hope you were able to work things out. 

Anyone know if this is an automated or manual process?  

For me personally, I have a reservation with a guest checkin on June 28th. Owner checkin on July 1st.  No problem, worked as expected.  Noteworthy?  Both reservations were made after June 18th.  I was told if a reservation was made prior to June 18th, we would need to call owner care to make sure it didn't cancel.


----------



## Cyrus24

lost patience said:


> Update: ***** Wyndham cancelled the July 2 reservation for 3 nights that had a guest name added after June 18. ***** AND - it had the overlap as specified in the email. As well as the dialog with VC and OC above.. I got the email today and checked the system and sure enough, I see it was cancelled. The points and guest confirmation were returned. Now my guests do not have a place to stay tomorrow night. We have my extra 1br that I booked for July 3 for 2 nights, but part of the crew sleeping on the couch was not the plan. Wyndham left 2 reservations with guest names that were added after June 18, along with the unit in my name. Cancelling the 3rd.




Lost Patience indicated that they had 3 reservations at WBC with GC's and further stated that they had an overlapping reservation with an owner name on it.  Per the recent letter, that is acceptable.  What gave Wyndham the right to cancel one of the reservations with a GC when Lost Patience had followed the written rules?  Lost Patience has a very legitimate complaint, IMHO, and we need to know how Wyndham makes it right.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Overall comment - the limit of 10 reservations is the least of our worries with all this.


----------



## Cyrus24

Sandi Bo said:


> Overall comment - the limit of 10 reservations is the least of our worries with all this.


Exactly.  Either the overlapping reservations process works when there are more than 2 GC reservations or it doesn't.  For Lost Patience, something on the Wyndham side failed.


----------



## r4rab

Cyrus24 said:


> Lost Patience indicated that they had 3 reservations at WBC with GC's and further stated that they had an overlapping reservation with an owner name on it.  Per the recent letter, that is acceptable.  What gave Wyndham the right to cancel one of the reservations with a GC when Lost Patience had followed the written rules?  Lost Patience has a very legitimate complaint, IMHO, and we need to know how Wyndham makes it right.


I think this shows the difference between what the email said and what the website said (caveat: I haven't read either for a while so I am going from memory). The email indicated unlimited GCs could be used with an overlapping owner reservation (subject to GC limitations) and that, additionally, 2 GCs could be used during blackout periods when the owner was not present.

The website said/implied that 2 GCs could be used with an overlapping owner reservation. It appears this may be what happened.


----------



## ilya

r4rab said:


> I think this shows the difference between what the email said and what the website said (caveat: I haven't read either for a while so I am going from memory). The email indicated unlimited GCs could be used with an overlapping owner reservation (subject to GC limitations) and that, additionally, 2 GCs could be used during blackout periods when the owner was not present.
> 
> The website said/implied that 2 GCs could be used with an overlapping owner reservation. It appears this may be what happened.



I thought I was having reading comprehension problems.. Had to read over a few times to make sure I had it correct..


----------



## Cyrus24

The online wording may have changed.  Seems clearer now.

"You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests."

So, to the case of Lost Patience, there was an overlapping reservation, so no 'new' restrictions on the number of GC's Lost Patience was allowed to use.


----------



## lost patience

Cyrus24 said:


> Lost Patience indicated that they had 3 reservations at WBC with GC's and further stated that they had an overlapping reservation with an owner name on it.  Per the recent letter, that is acceptable.  What gave Wyndham the right to cancel one of the reservations with a GC when Lost Patience had followed the written rules?  Lost Patience has a very legitimate complaint, IMHO, and we need to know how Wyndham makes it right.


After a lengthy call, they created a ticket.  OC and the several team members he chatted with all believe it should not have been cancelled.  Which is of no help for me.  They offered no solution for this weekends missing reservation.  OC was not able to help replace or recover the reservation.   It was Grand Desert not WBC, but the logic is correct.  3 reservations had guest names added after June 18 for 3 nights starting July 2.  One with owner name starting July 3 for 2 nights.  Of the 3 with guest names added after June 18,  one was cancelled.  This leads me to believe that the 2 are being counted as my "2 per year" then they cancelled the 3rd one.  
Soon after my call ended,  several units showed as available for July 2 for 2 nights.  I was able to book one of those.  That leaves us pretty squished on the night of July 4, but at least no one is sleeping on the floor or in their car.


----------



## Jan M.

In case anyone has somehow managed to miss the previous times I've posted it in this thread and OP have too, I'll give it one more try.

*The email was wrong! Owners cannot make unlimited reservations for the same resort and dates.*

I've seen some conflicting information about the 2 yearly guest confirmations we're permitted for the blacked out resorts and dates. From _lost patience _sharing her experience it seems that we get two guest confirmations period for the blacked out resorts and dates whether we're staying at the resort or not. This isn't made clear on the website.

You have to wonder if Wyndham didn't want us to know how it was going to work. Or perhaps they don't employ anyone capable of writing a simple two or three sentence explanation. Even to explain it to their own people from the COO down to the reps.


----------



## Cyrus24

Jan M. said:


> Or perhaps they don't employ anyone capable of writing a simple two or three sentence explanation. Even to explain it to their own people from the COO down to the reps.


Most of us are well aware of the incompetence inside the Wyndham organization.  Letters not matching Website words.  Websites that don't work.  Sales weasels that get by with lying every day.  Etc., Etc., Etc..


----------



## paxsarah

Cyrus24 said:


> The online wording may have changed.  Seems clearer now.
> 
> "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests."
> 
> So, to the case of Lost Patience, there was an overlapping reservation, so no 'new' restrictions on the number of GC's Lost Patience was allowed to use.


This is a good, clarifying update. For posterity, archive.org indicates that on June 18 the wording was, "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." So in adding "when not travelling with your guests," Wyndham brought the website language more in line with the explanation in the original email (notwithstanding the phrase in the email, "as many guest reservations as you would like," which really is not the main focus of the policy and shouldn't distract from Wyndham's actual intent).


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> In case anyone has somehow managed to miss the previous times I've posted it in this thread and OP have too, I'll give it one more try.
> 
> *The email was wrong! Owners cannot make unlimited reservations for the same resort and dates.*
> 
> I've seen some conflicting information about the 2 yearly guest confirmations we're permitted for the blacked out resorts and dates. From _lost patience _sharing her experience it seems that we get two guest confirmations period for the blacked out resorts and dates whether we're staying at the resort or not. This isn't made clear on the website.
> 
> You have to wonder if Wyndham didn't want us to know how it was going to work. Or perhaps they don't employ anyone capable of writing a simple two or three sentence explanation. Even to explain it to their own people from the COO down to the reps.


'Never *attribute to malice* that which *can be* adequately explained by neglect/stupidity/ineptitude. '


----------



## ilya

paxsarah said:


> This is a good, clarifying update. For posterity, archive.org indicates that on June 18 the wording was, "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." So in adding "when not travelling with your guests," Wyndham brought the website language more in line with the explanation in the original email (notwithstanding the phrase in the email, "as many guest reservations as you would like," which really is not the main focus of the policy and shouldn't distract from Wyndham's actual intent).




So , the email was wrong but the website is correct... Which I would think 3 guests are allowed according to the wording ... If owner is also on site.. Forget about the "unlimited'... That seemed to spark irritation... The 3rd guest should have never been canceled.. Bottom line...


----------



## paxsarah

ilya said:


> So , the email was wrong but the website is correct... Which I would think 3 guests are allowed according to the wording ... If owner is also on site.. Forget about the "unlimited'... That seemed to spark irritation... The 3rd guest should have never been canceled.. Bottom line...


I think they are now both correct, no? The email would have allowed 3 guests concurrent with an owner, and now the website makes clear that 3 guests should be allowed concurrent with an owner. The only thing "incorrect" in the email was the implication of unlimited guest reservations (rather than explicitly stating that total guest reservations would still be subject to preexisting limitations).

So basically, the cancellation was in error and the reservations all should have stood. I'm so sorry that happened. Now the language on the website is more consistent with the language in the email. Regardless, the FAQ mentioned by @HitchHiker71 can't come soon enough!


----------



## rickandcindy23

It seems that these changes just have us all adjusting what we do, how we do it, so we acquiesce to the whim of Wyndham execs, and the people who have to deal with the changes and the complaining and the lack of understanding is the owner and owner care.  I do wonder what owner care is saying to the higher-ups about these changes.  I would love to be a fly on that wall.  

I remember owner care being very sympathetic with our situation many years ago, when the new system came out and we all had to adjust to the way things were.  After all, they were advising people back then to cancel and rebook for the discounts.  We learned to work around that and just watch often for discounted stays within that window of time.  Now this change.  It's got to be stressful on the employees.  

I tend to think about what is going on behind the scenes.  I wouldn't want to work in an environment with angry callers.


----------



## paxsarah

rickandcindy23 said:


> I tend to think about what is going on behind the scenes. I wouldn't want to work in an environment with angry callers.


As an employee I hate the feeling when I'm not provided the information I need to do my job. All you can do is provide the information you've been given, and if you've been provided with inadequate or inconsistent training on a new policy, it's just a huge mess for everyone. I hope Wyndham has been making a concerted effort to get everyone there on the same page.


----------



## lost patience

I don't think I mentioned this tidbit......  almost 2 weeks after this newest policy was implemented.  VC asked me to forward the Wyndham email to her.  Exactly as you state - those that we get to talk to have no idea what the rules are.


----------



## lost patience

bendadin said:


> But this isn't the only noticeable move as of late.
> 
> So far we have seen:
> 
> Unlimited HK disappear as a benefit to new VIP.
> ROFR being added to CWA June/July 2018
> A dramatic reduction in the amount of contracts available for purchase on the resale market
> *Severe stipulations being added to "some" resale contracts (which is a whole new can of worms.)*
> 
> Are they chipping away at the original VIP owners so they get so frustrated that they leave (hence wiping out unlimited HK?)


What have you heard information about resale contracts?  And what is the "some"?  Can you share?


----------



## Jan M.

It's great that they changed what's on the website. However if lost patience's experience is anything to go by it would seem that the system isn't programmed to allow more than two guest reservations when an owner is staying at a resort/dates on the lists.

This leads us right back to where we started with this thread. Can we or should we really trust the current website and the black out list programming not to mess this up? 

If owner care manages to find another reservation to replace one that shouldn't have been cancelled does owner care have a way to prevent that reservation from also being cancelled?


----------



## lost patience

OC best guess is the system was programmed to look for overlaps only on the restricted nights.  In this case Fri and Sat.  My overlap night was on Sun.  Therefore, without an overlap on Fri or Sat night the system flagged my reservations.  They did create a case number.  Should they get back with me I'll report an update.  If this hypothesis is correct we have another case of programming that was not vetted well before implementation.


----------



## 55plus

lost patience said:


> What have you heard information about resale contracts?  And what is the "some"?  Can you share?


It makes sense Wyndham would separate resale from developer purchased points onto separate accounts. This solves a lot of programming problems for Wyndham as far as separating points and would hurt a large portion of the discount rental business.


----------



## Ty1on

lost patience said:


> What have you heard information about resale contracts?  And what is the "some"?  Can you share?


I'm not sure he can because as a resale owner, I've been following any changes pretty doggedly and have found nothing at all about any moves against resale owners.


----------



## CO skier

@CO skier reading the above post the restrictions and blackout dats are not so straightforward and simple as they may seem.
[/QUOTE]
For Extra Holidays, the policy is straightforward.  After June 18, no rentals for the affected resorts during the affected dates are accepted.  That very simple policy just needs to be communicated to those Wyndham employees tasked with reserving Extra Holidays dates.


----------



## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> *The email was wrong! Owners cannot make unlimited reservations for the same resort and dates.*


Please explain how the email signed by the CEO of Wyndham Destinations can be wrong?

I am not an attorney, but even I know that "Right" or "Wrong" as soon as a policy receives the signature of a company official at that level, which the email did, it becomes enforceable policy (on any side).  That is why they get paid the big bucks.


----------



## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> Please explain how the email signed by the CEO of Wyndham Destinations can be wrong?
> 
> I am not an attorney, but even I know that "Right" or "Wrong" as soon as a policy receives the signature of a company official at that level, which the email did, it becomes enforceable policy (on any side).  That is why they get paid the big bucks.


The system won't allow more than 10 reservations and I can't imagine anyone can override that.  I don't care who signed what.  Programmatically you cannot exceed 10 reservations. I have seen no ability on the part of VC's or OC's to override anything in this system. They can't do an upgrade or add nights you are entitled to (if they are sitting there but the system isn't working properly). Most certainly they have no power to exceed the max reservations.

That letter is simply poor communication on Wyndham's part. There's no way they meant unlimited.

If you try to book more than 10 overlapping reservations you'll get this message. Caveat: this is not during a blackout period or an effected resort, but I am certain regardless of resort or time period, you'll get this message. It's been kind of a big deal for a long time (2015?) and became programmatically enforced with voyager in May of 2017.


----------



## Eric B

55plus said:


> It makes sense Wyndham would separate resale from developer purchased points onto separate accounts. This solves a lot of programming problems for Wyndham as far as separating points and would hurt a large portion of the discount rental business.



@55plus, FYI it looks as though @dgalati has somehow figured out your account access information and started posting stuff under your username....


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> @55plus, FYI it looks as though @dgalati has somehow figured out your account access information and started posting stuff under your username....


@55plus I think your headed in the right direction! Eliminating resale points being used with VIP discounts and free upgrades would also free up needed inventory.


----------



## dgalati

bendadin said:


> But this isn't the only noticeable move as of late.
> 
> So far we have seen:
> 
> Unlimited HK disappear as a benefit to new VIP.
> ROFR being added to CWA June/July 2018
> A dramatic reduction in the amount of contracts available for purchase on the resale market
> Severe stipulations being added to "some" resale contracts (which is a whole new can of worms.)
> 
> Are they chipping away at the original VIP owners so they get so frustrated that they leave (hence wiping out unlimited HK?)


I have been called out on a few posts referring to Wyndhams recent new policymaking  but I think you have it right. Resale points being used with VIP benefits could very well be the next loophole closed.


----------



## lost patience

It has come to the point that I dread Wyndham's next poorly thought out, poorly communicated, poorly programed change implemented with little to no advance notice that further erodes VIP benefits.


----------



## 55plus

Ty1on said:


> I'm not sure he can because as a resale owner, I've been following any changes pretty doggedly and have found nothing at all about any moves against resale owners.


Wyndham doesn't plan to hurt resale owners. I believe their plan is to separate points, resale points and developer points into separate accounts. It's about the bottom line. Some HOAs couldn't survive without resale owners. The less popular resorts couldn't afford to keep their door open.


----------



## paxsarah

bendadin said:


> So far we have seen:
> ...
> Severe stipulations being added to "some" resale contracts (which is a whole new can of worms.)



But have we seen this? What are the severe stipulations? Which resale contracts?



55plus said:


> I believe their plan is to separate points, resale points and developer points into separate accounts.


Is this based on anything, or just a theory of yours? Because separating resale points and developer points into truly separate accounts would be a nightmare. Note that getting VIP benefits on resale points is not the only reason an owner might have both developer and resale points in the same account. Plenty of owners buy once from Wyndham, never get to a VIP level, and then add resale points. A non-VIP might want to use their points together for ARP (assuming the same deed/CWA for multiple contracts), or together in RCI, or together at all, but if they were in separate accounts they couldn't.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> @55plus I think your headed in the right direction! Eliminating resale points being used with VIP discounts and free upgrades would also free up needed inventory.



As I’ve repeatedly maintained - parroting this theory isn’t going to make it come true. Wyndham doesn’t mind allowing VIPs to use resale points for personal use, Wyndham does not want any owners using resale points for commercial use. If it’s not already plainly obvious - the implementation of these blackout periods for popular resorts essentially makes it much more difficult for those VIP owners using resale contracts to maintain any kind of commercial rental business to remain viable. We’ve already seen several owners that fall into this category state on this thread that they will simply use Certified Exit to hand back in their resale contracts that they have been using for commercial renting. For Wyndham - this is mission accomplished IMHO. This new blackout program is a targeted approach to eliminate commercial renters without penalizing other VIP owners who adhere to the documented contractual rules and only use their resale points for personal use. Once this all plays out and another block of owners using resale contracts for commercial rentals are out of the game - there will be no reason to penalize any remaining VIP owners who happen to hold resale contracts for personal use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VAlegacy

HitchHiker71 said:


> As I’ve repeatedly maintained - parroting this theory isn’t going to make it come true. Wyndham doesn’t mind allowing VIPs to use resale points for personal use, Wyndham does not want any owners using resale points for commercial use. If it’s not already plainly obvious - the implementation of these blackout periods for popular resorts essentially makes it much more difficult for those VIP owners using resale contracts to maintain any kind of commercial rental business to remain viable. We’ve already seen several owners that fall into this category state on this thread that they will simply use Certified Exit to hand back in their resale contracts that they have been using for commercial renting. For Wyndham - this is mission accomplished IMHO. This new blackout program is a targeted approach to eliminate commercial renters without penalizing other VIP owners who adhere to the documented contractual rules and only use their resale points for personal use. Once this all plays out and another block of owners using resale contracts for commercial rentals are out of the game - there will be no reason to penalize any remaining VIP owners who happen to hold resale contracts for personal use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have to wonder though if totally eliminating rentals is in their best interest.  Think about the number of sales pitches that are generated from people on first time visits, unfamiliar with the workings of Wyndham or timeshare in general, euphoric on their first time visit.
Before I owned anything Wyndham, there was a EH vacation at BC I almost booked, that was discounted around 50%.  The requirement was to attend a sales pitch during my stay to receive the discount.  I decided to book instead through Tripbound, a points manager.  This was more discounted than the EH with the sales pitch requirement.
With less fresh meat, this will impact sales for sure.


----------



## VacayKat

VAlegacy said:


> I have to wonder though if totally eliminating rentals is in their best interest.  Think about the number of sales pitches that are generated from people on first time visits, unfamiliar with the workings of Wyndham or timeshare in general, euphoric on their first time visit.
> Before I owned anything Wyndham, there was a EH vacation at BC I almost booked, that was discounted around 50%.  The requirement was to attend a sales pitch during my stay to receive the discount.  I decided to book instead through Tripbound, a points manager.  This was more discounted than the EH with the sales pitch requirement.
> With less fresh meat, this will impact sales for sure.


I think the trick is - if owners don’t (or can’t) rent, Wyndham still can AND they can control the price and the audience. It isn’t that rentals will cease- just non Wyndham rentals.


----------



## Cyrus24

VacayKat said:


> I think the trick is - if owners don’t (or can’t) rent, Wyndham still can AND they can control the price and the audience. It isn’t that rentals will cease- just non Wyndham rentals.


And, that is wrong, IMHO.  Wyndham can run a Rental Business and the lowly owner who has a few extra points can't 'rent' them out.  I use the term rent, loosely, as in my case the few rentals I've done have been at 'cost of points' to friends.  Hardly running a commercial business. 

I do support taking VIP benefits from resale points contracts, that has never seemed fair to me.  Not sure that Wyndham has the IT capability for implementing such a change,, they have such trouble with what should be easy modifications.  Full disclosure, I'm VIP-P with one small resale contract, I would not be significantly impacted by a rule change on resale contracts.


----------



## Sandi Bo

paxsarah said:


> But have we seen this? What are the severe stipulations? Which resale contracts?
> 
> 
> Is this based on anything, or just a theory of yours? Because separating resale points and developer points into truly separate accounts would be a nightmare. Note that getting VIP benefits on resale points is not the only reason an owner might have both developer and resale points in the same account. Plenty of owners buy once from Wyndham, never get to a VIP level, and then add resale points. A non-VIP might want to use their points together for ARP (assuming the same deed/CWA for multiple contracts), or together in RCI, or together at all, but if they were in separate accounts they couldn't.


This has been talked about forever. Even before the rolling and before the stripping. Things work today like Wyndham wants them to, whatever the reason. If and when they want to change things, they will. I say they like having maintenance fees paid.  I for one do not book all rooms at a discount. Value season rentals at full points can for sure pay maintenance fees and take much, much, less time. Family vacations planned a year out are booked at full points. My guess is they are happy with the status quo. If they weren't, we'd have seen something different with the rollout of voyager or the May 2020 release. And I fully understand that could change tomorrow (or maybe even today with 6 hours notice).


----------



## Worker

To confirm, is Wyndham Grand Desert on restricted list? I didn't see it.


----------



## Eric B

Cyrus24 said:


> I do support taking VIP benefits from resale points contracts, that has never seemed fair to me. Not sure that Wyndham has the IT capability for implementing such a change,, they have such trouble with what should be easy modifications. Full disclosure, I'm VIP-P with one small resale contract, I would not be significantly impacted by a rule change on resale contracts.



While I do respect that point of view, the way the program was set up for VIP benefits when I bought both my retail contracts and my resale contracts was that only the retail contracts (including PICs) would count towards what VIP benefits I get, while all of the points in my account regardless of origin (retail, PIC, resale, rented, PDFed or borrowed from a future year) would enjoy the benefits.  I'm positive that all of the VIPs with resale contracts in the same account are in the same situation, though some may not be aware of it.  I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it, but if Wyndham were to change the rules on how things work, it would seem like a bit of a stretch to me to call it "fair."  Particularly when they do things like realigning your contract years to match a resale biennial contract and potentially costing the owner points as many have had happen.

The other point I see about this is that I have never been given the option to choose what points I use for a reservation.  It seems to work out ok the way it is implemented, though if they are really segregating the sources of the points being used rather than allowing a specific account X points for ARP at specific resorts, etc., and they don't let the owner choose what points to use as other systems do, there could be unintended consequences.  I imagine that if they used someone's CWS points for a standard period reservation and didn't allow them to make an ARP reservation later that year, for example, they would be opening up a whole new can of hot water.


----------



## paxsarah

Worker said:


> To confirm, is Wyndham Grand Desert on restricted list? I didn't see it.


It is. Unfortunately, the list is only grouped by dates, not by resort. So it's on the list for weekends in September and October, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and NYE, Spring Break, Easter, and Memorial Day.


----------



## rickandcindy23

When you own at Kingsgate or Fairfield Bay, or any of the older properties via a resale, I could see a case being made that anything booked with regular points should not be subject to the new rules.  Because you are choosing to rent/use what you actually do own.  I am allowed to use my deeded weeks as rentals (not in Wyndham), and there is nothing anyone can do about it.  I pay my fees, reserve my weeks and rent them.  Just because they are in points, I cannot rent those units I own?


----------



## 55plus

paxsarah said:


> But have we seen this? What are the severe stipulations? Which resale contracts?
> Is this based on anything, or just a theory of yours? Because separating resale points and developer points into truly separate accounts would be a nightmare. Note that getting VIP benefits on resale points is not the only reason an owner might have both developer and resale points in the same account. Plenty of owners buy once from Wyndham, never get to a VIP level, and then add resale points. A non-VIP might want to use their points together for ARP (assuming the same deed/CWA for multiple contracts), or together in RCI, or together at all, but if they were in separate accounts they couldn't.


Purely speculation dictated by logic base on what's been happening over the last year.


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> Purely speculation dictated by logic base on what's been happening over the last year.


It was a very loaded statement when he wrote that we have seen severe stipulations applied to some resale accounts.  I know you didn't post that, but such a claim needs to be backed up by more than speculation.

In the last year and change, my resale points have behaved precisely as they always have.  In fact, RCI was very generous with the exchange I was forced to cancel, my non club resort generously allowed me to rebook my interval outside my (EOY) use year, and Wyndham allowed me to convert that interval to Club with no fees, even awarding me extra points next year for the rescheduled reservation that was cancelled.  I dont own any store bought points at all, and I don't feel less-than when dealing with owner services, or any resort staff.  Except of course that I don't have club pass and cannot participate in RCI points.  Those limitations aren't anything new.

I am very interested in a specific example of a resale contract whose privileges have changed over the last year.  Until then, I consider it a Wild aspersion.


----------



## Cyrus24

Eric B said:


> While I do respect that point of view, the way the program was set up for VIP benefits when I bought both my retail contracts and my resale contracts was that only the retail contracts (including PICs) would count towards what VIP benefits I get, while all of the points in my account regardless of origin (retail, PIC, resale, rented, PDFed or borrowed from a future year) would enjoy the benefits.  I'm positive that all of the VIPs with resale contracts in the same account are in the same situation, though some may not be aware of it.  I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it, but if Wyndham were to change the rules on how things work, it would seem like a bit of a stretch to me to call it "fair."  Particularly when they do things like realigning your contract years to match a resale biennial contract and potentially costing the owner points as many have had happen.
> 
> The other point I see about this is that I have never been given the option to choose what points I use for a reservation.  It seems to work out ok the way it is implemented, though if they are really segregating the sources of the points being used rather than allowing a specific account X points for ARP at specific resorts, etc., and they don't let the owner choose what points to use as other systems do, there could be unintended consequences.  I imagine that if they used someone's CWS points for a standard period reservation and didn't allow them to make an ARP reservation later that year, for example, they would be opening up a whole new can of hot water.


They change the rules all the time.  Example being that we can no longer use a GC on certain reservations.  I happen to disagree with that since GC's are not a benefit solely afforded those who paid sizable sums of money for contracts.  All owners lose with this blackout BS.

Regarding fairness on obtaining discounts while using resale points, it still just does not seem fair, to me.  I currently get a discount on 168K resale points while another gets discounts on millions of cheap resale points.  Neither I nor the person with millions of resale points should get the discount.  We should only get the discount on points we paid retail for. just like other owners.  Our VIP status is defined solely by our retail purchases.  Just my opinion.  Forget what you were told, rules can be changed.  Also, fairness is a matter of perspective.  I could get political on what constitutes fairness with regard to taxes and social programs, but, I'll stay neutral on that matter.

One thing I know we'll agree on, implementing would be a nightmare for Wyndham as they have a TERRIBLE track record of rolling out benefit changes,  Any changes. for that matter!!!.  While I think that they will someday try to eliminate discounts being offered on resale points, the track record of the IT department may be the reason they choose not to touch that benefit.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I wouldn't care if they took away benefits on resale contracts for our Wyndham platinum/ founders accounts.  Just let me deed those points back that I don't want, and that could become a big deal because if they stop Ovations, that could hurt us.  How would I divest myself of those points?  If they take it away, be prepared to take back my Kingsgate, Pagosa Springs, Fairfield Bay (Arkansas), and then watch those HOA's collapse because who will want those points, unless Wyndham offers them at a foreclosure rate with 100% platinum benefits, if they buy enough of them?  That would be the smart thing to do.  But I am not Wyndham, and I don't know their future plans for these older resorts. 

One thing we own that is now run by Wyndham is Presidential Villas (now named Pres Villas at Grand Palms).  I am sort of glad Wyndham took over because Wyndham is really good at controlling fees.  That is a positive for me, but I am still looking to get out of those units because I don't need that many RCI Points anymore, I rarely get great exchanges with RCI Points, and I don't believe Wyndham will allow the transfer of the RCI points to a new buyer, and I never had a promise in my RCI Points' contract I did with the resort 8 years ago that they would transfer.  Now that it's Wyndham, there is no way.


----------



## lost patience

More on my saga for this weekends reservations.  It gets even better.  Got a call from one of my guests.  The front desk told my guest the reservation was still in my name and I needed to modify the traveler.  I had forwarded the Wyndham name change confirmation to my guest previously.  I told my guest to show the confirmation to the front desk staff - it has my member number and reservation number so they could see it on paper, and also log in themselves.  Just to be sure, I logged in and verified as well.  Guest said yes they had already shared that info with the front desk, but the front desk and the manager insisted I needed to modify the reservation to add the guest name.  I then called and was transferred to the manager.  He logged into my account and could see the reservation with the guest name in TRIP, but said it did not transfer to the resort system and if/when it did transfer it would be cancelled as there was not any overlap.  Hm.   I pointed out the overlap starts tomorrow.   Oh, he says.  He continued to repeatedly state that the reservation did not transfer to the resort system like it should have.  And, he noticed that TRIP showed a 3br while the resort system showed an owner name and a 2br.  After a bit - I asked what he intended to do to rectify the issue.  After some stumbling he finally said he would manually create the 3br with guest name in the resort system and then would report back to owner care tomorrow. 

Are any of you knowledgeable of how the Owner website talks to TRIP and then to the resort?  I had always thought it was a one way pass of information.  Website database to TRIP to resort.  This manager said the resort system could cancel a reservation.  Does it really have a feedback loop?


----------



## Sandi Bo

lost patience said:


> More on my saga for this weekends reservations.  It gets even better.  Got a call from one of my guests.  The front desk told my guest the reservation was still in my name and I needed to modify the traveler.  I had forwarded the Wyndham name change confirmation to my guest previously.  I told my guest to show the confirmation to the front desk staff - it has my member number and reservation number so they could see it on paper, and also log in themselves.  Just to be sure, I logged in and verified as well.  Guest said yes they had already shared that info with the front desk, but the front desk and the manager insisted I needed to modify the reservation to add the guest name.  I then called and was transferred to the manager.  He logged into my account and could see the reservation with the guest name in TRIP, but said it did not transfer to the resort system and if/when it did transfer it would be cancelled as there was not any overlap.  Hm.   I pointed out the overlap starts tomorrow.   Oh, he says.  He continued to repeatedly state that the reservation did not transfer to the resort system like it should have.  And, he noticed that TRIP showed a 3br while the resort system showed an owner name and a 2br.  After a bit - I asked what he intended to do to rectify the issue.  After some stumbling he finally said he would manually create the 3br with guest name in the resort system and then would report back to owner care tomorrow.
> 
> Are any of you knowledgeable of how the Owner website talks to TRIP and then to the resort?  I had always thought it was a one way pass of information.  Website database to TRIP to resort.  This manager said the resort system could cancel a reservation.  Does it really have a feedback loop?


Wow! What a terrible mess for you. I'm so sorry (bet you can't wait to get there). Interestingly, when I called Bonnet Creek to make sure a (current) reservation would be okay I was told the cancellations were totally a corporate thing and they'd have nothing to do with cancelling anything. Things worked as expected at BC, I had no issues at all. Over the years, I've had times at Bonnet Creek where reservations have needed to be built in the resort system. Few and far between but it happens. I also had one at Bentley Brook this year. The resorts did what they needed to do (manually building reservations in the resort system). The changes never reflected back in the owner website (which I believe means never reflected back in TRIP). Points adjustments were made manually by the resort sending the information to some back office at corporate and I saw them in my transaction history about a week later (as a points adjustment -> reservation adjustment) but definitely a manual process). And wow, again, I cannot imagine once in-house that a guest would be removed or that the resort would hold you responsible for the system not working like it should, like you could fix it? Crazy Grand Desert would handle this situation the way they have.  (I do think if it doesn't flow properly (and instanteously) in the first place, it has to be fixed manually in the resort system). Good luck, thanks for keeping us posted.

Were your reservations made prior to June 18th? Mine were made after June 18th (both the guest one and the owner one). When I talked to OC originally they said if the reservations were made after June 18th the system would work properly. They said if the reservations were made prior to June 18th, they would still be legal, but I'd have to call OC - insinuating there is a manual way for them to make sure they don't get cancelled. I envision some sort of flag they can set, but no warm fuzzy regarding that at this point. Still looking for confirmation on how a reservation is manually marked safe as well as if the cancellations are automatic or a manual process.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Purely speculation dictated by logic base on what's been happening over the last year.


I concurred with this opinion and also speculate it will eventually become a reality.  Why not just eliminate being able to use a GC when booking resale points when recieving VIP discounts or free upgrades. This alone would free up much needed inventory for owners to book for personal use. Some owners believe its a benefit because sales sold it as one. Sounds very similar to the cancel and re book loophole that was elininated.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> As I’ve repeatedly maintained - parroting this theory isn’t going to make it come true. Wyndham doesn’t mind allowing VIPs to use resale points for personal use, Wyndham does not want any owners using resale points for commercial use. If it’s not already plainly obvious - the implementation of these blackout periods for popular resorts essentially makes it much more difficult for those VIP owners using resale contracts to maintain any kind of commercial rental business to remain viable. We’ve already seen several owners that fall into this category state on this thread that they will simply use Certified Exit to hand back in their resale contracts that they have been using for commercial renting. For Wyndham - this is mission accomplished IMHO. This new blackout program is a targeted approach to eliminate commercial renters without penalizing other VIP owners who adhere to the documented contractual rules and only use their resale points for personal use. Once this all plays out and another block of owners using resale contracts for commercial rentals are out of the game - there will be no reason to penalize any remaining VIP owners who happen to hold resale contracts for personal use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some VIP owners thought cancel and re book also was untouchable when not using for rentals or commercial use.Then boom just like that it was gone. When a  system is abused sooner or later the loopholes are eliminated.


----------



## Eric B

dgalati said:


> I concurred with this opinion and also speculate it will eventually become a reality.  Why not just eliminate being able to use a GC when booking resale points when recieving VIP discounts or free upgrades. This alone would free up mych needed inventory for owners to book for personal use. Some owners believe its a benefit because sales sold it as one. Sounds very similar to the cancel and re book loophole that was elininated.





dgalati said:


> Some VIP owners thought cancel and re book also was untouchable when not using for rentals or commercial use.Then boom just like that it was gone. When a  system is abused sooner or later the loopholes are eliminated.



Similarly, I believe Wyndham will eliminate the ability of owners to book stays starting on Wednesdays.  It only makes sense because they would reduce their staffing costs by about 14% by eliminating the need to keep the reception desks open one day a week.  It would also reduce the need to air condition or heat the space and keep the lights on, thereby reducing the utility costs.  Because Wednesdays are a low demand day anyway and they don't cost as many points as Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays, there would be minimal impact on owners.  After all, they never promised that you would be able to check in on a Wednesday and it isn't listed as a right for owners in the contracts.  It's inevitable that this will happen.  Tuesdays and Thursdays should be enough for those weekday checking-in owners!


----------



## Sandi Bo

Eric B said:


> Similarly, I believe Wyndham will eliminate the ability of owners to book stays starting on Wednesdays.  It only makes sense because they would reduce their staffing costs by about 14% by eliminating the need to keep the reception desks open one day a week.  It would also reduce the need to air condition or heat the space and keep the lights on, thereby reducing the utility costs.  Because Wednesdays are a low demand day anyway and they don't cost as many points as Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays, there would be minimal impact on owners.  After all, they never promised that you would be able to check in on a Wednesday and it isn't listed as a right for owners in the contracts.  It's inevitable that this will happen.  Tuesdays and Thursdays should be enough for those weekday checking-in owners!


Are you starting a petition or something for this?


----------



## troy12n

Eric B said:


> Similarly, I believe Wyndham will eliminate the ability of owners to book stays starting on Wednesdays.  It only makes sense because they would reduce their staffing costs by about 14% by eliminating the need to keep the reception desks open one day a week.  It would also reduce the need to air condition or heat the space and keep the lights on, thereby reducing the utility costs.  Because Wednesdays are a low demand day anyway and they don't cost as many points as Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays, there would be minimal impact on owners.  After all, they never promised that you would be able to check in on a Wednesday and it isn't listed as a right for owners in the contracts.  It's inevitable that this will happen.  Tuesdays and Thursdays should be enough for those weekday checking-in owners!



I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they would never do this. They would not save any money by doing this, as resort "desks" are open every day anyway because they deal with guest services and other stuff every day. 

They aren't going to do this...


----------



## Sandi Bo

Not sure this belongs here on in another thread...

I see Desert Blue on the blackout list but not the Margaritaville at Desert Blue.  Anyone have any insight on that?  I wondered if the Margaritaville is safe to put a guest confirmation on our not. I called and the VC said that since they are in the same building, Margaritaville is also included (as a blacked out resort). I see Inn on Long Wharf Long Wharf both listed so... still left wondering.  Anyone else called on this or have more information?


----------



## Ty1on

troy12n said:


> I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they would never do this. They would not save any money by doing this, as resort "desks" are open every day anyway because they deal with guest services and other stuff every day.
> 
> They aren't going to do this...


He's joking a la "A Modest Proposal"


----------



## 55plus

My sister and brother-in-law are celebrating their wedding anniversary at Desert Blue's Margaritaville the last weekend in July. Checking in couple nights before the weekend and checking out a couple nights after. They are going as owners on my account. I added them over 10 years ago. I'm really glad I did incase these new restriction become long-term.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they would never do this. They would not save any money by doing this, as resort "desks" are open every day anyway because they deal with guest services and other stuff every day.
> 
> They aren't going to do this...


Not so fast I wouldn't be so sure they don't. @Eric B I hear Wyndham reads these posts so don't give them any more ideas.


----------



## Roger830

dgalati said:


> Not so fast I wouldn't be so sure they don't. @Eric B I hear Wyndham reads these posts so *don't give them any more ideas.*



I didn't want to give them any more ideas so I didn't mention that they might have check-in after 6 PM.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> My sister and brother-in-law are celebrating their wedding anniversary at Desert Blue's Margaritaville the last weekend in July. Checking in couple nights before the weekend and checking out a couple nights after. They are going as owners on my account. I added them over 10 years ago. I'm really glad I did incase these new restriction become long-term.


I wonder if Wyndham will ever restrict how many names can be on a ownership?


----------



## dgalati

Roger830 said:


> I didn't want to give them any more ideas so I didn't mention that they might have check-in after 6 PM.


I heard 7pm checkin with a 7am check out is a possibility.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I wonder if Wyndham will ever restrict how many names can be on a ownership?



I imagine they could come up with a number, but I can't imagine they would have an issue with immediate family members.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I imagine they could come up with a number, but I can't imagine they would have an issue with immediate family members.


Its better to have multiple owners on the hook for the maintenance fees. Do they know they can be responsible to pay them if  for some reason you don't?


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Its better to have multiple owners on the hook for the maintenance fees. Do they know they can be responsible to pay them if  for some reason you don't?



They know the deal. But if I were to die it would go to my estate, they could walk away and default on the maintenance fees if they wish. They are on only one deed, a small one and can't be forced to inherit the rest. Saying that, they would want to keep it and use it when they become snowbirds. They would want to inherit it because it's the most efficient way to snowbird at various quality resorts throughout the winter months.


----------



## lost patience

Roger830 said:


> I didn't want to give them any more ideas so I didn't mention that they might have check-in after 6 PM.


Branson resorts already have 6pm check in......


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> Some VIP owners thought cancel and re book also was untouchable when not using for rentals or commercial use.Then boom just like that it was gone. When a system is abused sooner or later the loopholes are eliminated.



The differences are marked between the example you give and the reality of VIP resale contracts used for rentals. To the best of my understanding pretty much all VIP owners used cancel and rebook prior to Voyager. 

In comparison, let’s consider the fact that roughly 5% of all owner contracts in CWP are resale contracts - and only a minority of those contracts are held by VIP owners - and only a minority of those VIP owners who hold resale contracts run commercial rental businesses. That means that well under 1% (it’s more like .05% of CWP contracts - or only 1% of resale contracts). When you actually look at the math - the numbers don’t add up. 

It is therefore clearly apples and oranges when comparing these two use cases, of which you are so very fond of doing repeatedly. 

Will Wyndham limit resale contract usage in the future? Anything is possible - but likely not for the reasons purported on this and many other threads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> The differences are marked between the example you give and the reality of VIP resale contracts used for rentals. To the best of my understanding pretty much all VIP owners used cancel and rebook prior to Voyager.
> 
> In comparison, let’s consider the fact that roughly 5% of all owner contracts in CWP are resale contracts - and only a minority of those contracts are held by VIP owners - and only a minority of those VIP owners who hold resale contracts run commercial rental businesses. That means that well under 1% (it’s more like .05% of CWP contracts - or only 1% of resale contracts). When you actually look at the math - the numbers don’t add up.
> 
> It is therefore clearly apples and oranges when comparing these two use cases, of which you are so very fond of doing repeatedly.
> 
> Will Wyndham limit resale contract usage in the future? Anything is possible - but likely not for the reasons purported on this and many other threads.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The other point worth mentioning is that a VIP booking in the discount period with a resale ownership is responding to an incentive Wyndham has in place to improve utilization of low demand availability.  It was different in the days of cancel and rebook, when they could have secured a reservation early than get the discount anyway.  Given that the cost to Wyndham is low of allowing this, if a cost really exists outside some imaginations, and eliminating it would necessitate other adjustments to incentives for use of the same availability, I don’t think Wyndham would have much motivation to do so.  They are in the business to run a business, not to swat at imaginary flies.

{Closing off Wednesday check ins, on the other hand, would yield real savings….  }


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> The other point worth mentioning is that a VIP booking in the discount period with a resale ownership is responding to an incentive Wyndham has in place to improve utilization of low demand availability.  It was different in the days of cancel and rebook, when they could have secured a reservation early than get the discount anyway.  Given that the cost to Wyndham is low of allowing this, if a cost really exists outside some imaginations, and eliminating it would necessitate other adjustments to incentives for use of the same availability, I don’t think Wyndham would have much motivation to do so.  They are in the business to run a business, not to swat at imaginary flies.
> 
> {Closing off Wednesday check ins, on the other hand, would yield real savings….  }


Why not add the second Monday and third Sunday of each month? Think about how this would daze and confuse owners into buying more points. Especially if sales promised owners that buying up to VIP status would allow them to check in any day of the week.


----------



## dgalati

lost patience said:


> Branson resorts already have 6pm check in......


Whats next a additional fee for early check in at 4pm?


----------



## 9969hi

I thought I understood the restrictions of certain resorts during desirable booking weeks. When I read the Wyndham description of the restrictions I understood that all owners would to be allowed to have two  guest certificates during restricted weeks to rent or give to guests or friends. I called Wyndham today and was added a guest to a non restricted resort. I asked whether I could add a guest to my Bonnet Creek reservation for Aug 9 to 16. I was told that the only way I could put the reservation in a guest name for that week is I would have to be at Bonnet Creek in another unit during that week. I cancelled my Bonnet Creek reservation and then went back to Wyndham website and the memo about restricted resorts. It seems to clearly state that you can do two reservations a year and rent them out with guest certificates. What am I missing here?


----------



## 55plus

Very vague wording on the website. But it doesn't state anything about outright  renting. To make it harder on renting if you are going to rent you have to be there too.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Very vague wording on the website. But it doesn't state anything about outright  renting. To make it harder on renting if you are going to rent you have to be there too.


Very confusing policy. I think it by design to daze and confuse owners into not renting.


----------



## chapjim

9969hi said:


> I thought I understood the restrictions of certain resorts during desirable booking weeks. When I read the Wyndham description of the restrictions I understood that all owners would to be allowed to have two  guest certificates during restricted weeks to rent or give to guests or friends. I called Wyndham today and was added a guest to a non restricted resort. I asked whether I could add a guest to my Bonnet Creek reservation for Aug 9 to 16. I was told that the only way I could put the reservation in a guest name for that week is I would have to be at Bonnet Creek in another unit during that week. I cancelled my Bonnet Creek reservation and then went back to Wyndham website and the memo about restricted resorts. It seems to clearly state that you can do two reservations a year and rent them out with guest certificates. What am I missing here?



You're not missing anything.  You happened to talk to one of the people who still doesn't understand what the "owners only" policy says.

One of the hazards in Wyndham promulgating poorly worded, vague, and imprecise policy is that even their own people don't understand it and get it wrong.  Earlier in this same thread, there's an example of someone talking to a Vacation Counselor and then to Owner Care and both gave an erroneous reading of the policy and they were wrong for different reasons.  And both changed their minds when the policy was quoted _verbatim_.


----------



## rickandcindy23

chapjim said:


> You're not missing anything.  You happened to talk to one of the people who still doesn't understand what the "owners only" policy says.
> 
> One of the hazards in Wyndham promulgating poorly worded, vague, and imprecise policy is that even their own people don't understand it and get it wrong.  Earlier in this same thread, there's an example of someone talking to a Vacation Counselor and then to Owner Care and both gave an erroneous reading of the policy and they were wrong for different reasons.  And both changed their minds when the policy was quoted _verbatim_.


Yes.  Agree with this.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> You're not missing anything. You happened to talk to one of the people who still doesn't understand what the "owners only" policy says.


This reminds me, on Facebook several owners have mentioned that they called and were told that as long as their guest doesn’t check in _on one of the blackout dates_ they’re fine. Check in on Thursday, stay the weekend, it doesn’t count.

I have a bad feeling about this.


----------



## CO skier

chapjim said:


> You're not missing anything.  You happened to talk to one of the people who still doesn't understand what the "owners only" policy says.


I guess I am missing the part of the policy where it is stated that the owner must be present for the two unrestricted guest confirmations.  Can anyone point to that specific detail in the email or website policy (maybe it has been updated to include this?)


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> I guess I am missing the part of the policy where it is stated that the owner must be present for the two unrestricted guest confirmations.  Can anyone point to that specific detail in the email or website policy (maybe it has been updated to include this?)


It doesn’t say that, and that’s the issue. The vacation counselor insisted the owner must be present, but the initial email and current website language make it clear that an owner can send guests twice per year during restricted dates without being present. It seems there’s a big training issue over there.


----------



## 55plus

I guess guest means different things to different people. It appears guest in the dictionary means, in so many words, 'invited to come to you', however, "take part in a function organized by another" could mean renting. Here is the definition of guest: 

noun:
1. a person who is invited to visit the home of or take part in a function organized by another.
2. "I have two guests coming to dinner tonight"


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> invited to visit the home of


........for $10,000/week.  Nowhere does the definition say that the visit is free a cost or that the home owner will be present at arrival or during the visit.


----------



## bnoble

Look at how long it took us to figure out what it meant…and many of us were highly motivated to get it right.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Deleted


----------



## rickandcindy23

Deleted


----------



## lost patience

Just a thought....  Desert Blue is on the weekend restricted list.  While it is not a resort I've paid much attention to, I'm guessing it is normally sold out?  For July 16, there are currently 7 different room types (with accessibility chosen).  Who knows how many actual rooms. I bet some of those are going to sit empty now.  The owners that would have used those for guests can't.  That means the owner still has those points and could potentially push those points forward perpetuating the "bump" of stacked up points caused by COVID.  Some owners making last minute reservations will be thrilled - which is a good thing.  Please don't get on the rent for profit vs share with family topic here.   That is a topic for a different thread.    I'm only pointing out that these restrictions will leave rooms empty and will push the timeline for regaining balance out another year, or so.


----------



## dgalati

lost patience said:


> Just a thought....  Desert Blue is on the weekend restricted list.  While it is not a resort I've paid much attention to, I'm guessing it is normally sold out?  For July 16, there are currently 7 different room types (with accessibility chosen).  Who knows how many actual rooms. I bet some of those are going to sit empty now.  The owners that would have used those for guests can't.  That means the owner still has those points and could potentially push those points forward perpetuating the "bump" of stacked up points caused by COVID.  Some owners making last minute reservations will be thrilled - which is a good thing.  Please don't get on the rent for profit vs share with family topic here.   That is a topic for a different thread.    I'm only pointing out that these restrictions will leave rooms empty and will push the timeline for regaining balance out another year, or so.


If this happens maybe Wyndham will extend the blackout dates for renting into 2023?


----------



## HitchHiker71

lost patience said:


> I'm only pointing out that these restrictions will leave rooms empty and will push the timeline for regaining balance out another year, or so.



The new restrictions will produce empty rooms in the short term.  That is a known quantity and is by design IMHO.  If Wyndham wants to address the issue of limited inventory due to too much rental activity, the _first _step is to free up inventory - and create the necessary slack in the inventory system - which is exactly what is being done. The next steps are to modify behavior with existing owners who've become so frustrated with the lack of availability that they no longer bother to check - and don't use their ownership as a result. Re-education takes time - probably a couple of years - but eventually the bet, IMHO, is that the subset of owners who've been so frustrated with the lack of available inventory will start to see more inventory available in the system - and eventually take more vacations - and eventually consider purchasing more points as they take more vacations. It's a longer term strategic play toward owner satisfaction. Yes, it's at the expense of a very small subset of commercial renters/owners - but if it's not already obvious - this subset of owners is no longer a priority to Wyndham moving forward.


----------



## SueDonJ

lost patience said:


> Just a thought....  Desert Blue is on the weekend restricted list.  While it is not a resort I've paid much attention to, I'm guessing it is normally sold out?  For July 16, there are currently 7 different room types (with accessibility chosen).  Who knows how many actual rooms. I bet some of those are going to sit empty now.  The owners that would have used those for guests can't.  That means the owner still has those points and could potentially push those points forward perpetuating the "bump" of stacked up points caused by COVID.  Some owners making last minute reservations will be thrilled - which is a good thing.  Please don't get on the rent for profit vs share with family topic here.   That is a topic for a different thread.    I'm only pointing out that these restrictions will leave rooms empty and will push the timeline for regaining balance out another year, or so.



I'm not a Wyndham owner but it occurs to me that Wyndham is hearing, like every other timeshare system is, from irate owners who lost usage due to COVID-19 and now are finding that Wyndham doesn't have availability while plenty of rental brokers do. "WHY IS IT THAT I AS AN OWNER CAN'T BOOK ANYTHING ON THE OWNERS' WEBSITE BUT I AND EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET CAN PAY CASH TO A BROKER FOR THE EXACT SAME INVENTORY I WANT?!?! GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAIIIIIEEEE!!!! THIS IS %#^$% CRAP!!!!!!"

I don't think this is the impetus for Wyndham having rolled out a crusade against mega-renters but it might be the reason their crusade has been rolled out now rather than later, in such a disjointed fashion rather than well-thought out and -presented.

Whatever's happening, it's worth watching for every timeshare owner because usually what one company does, others at least consider following.


----------



## 55plus

My sister and brother-in-law are going to the Margaritaville side of Desert Blue the end of July for a week to celebrate their anniversary. Last minute reservation with an upgrade. Usually the weekends would be book, but the restriction policy made it possible for them and I'm sure others to go. They are considered owners on my account, not guests, which also made it possible.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Very vague wording on the website. But it doesn't state anything about outright  renting. To make it harder on renting if you are going to rent you have to be there too.





HitchHiker71 said:


> The new restrictions will produce empty rooms in the short term.  That is a known quantity and is by design IMHO.  If Wyndham wants to address the issue of limited inventory due to too much rental activity, the _first _step is to free up inventory - and create the necessary slack in the inventory system - which is exactly what is being done. The next steps are to modify behavior with existing owners who've become so frustrated with the lack of availability that they no longer bother to check - and don't use their ownership as a result. Re-education takes time - probably a couple of years - but eventually the bet, IMHO, is that the subset of owners who've been so frustrated with the lack of available inventory will start to see more inventory available in the system - and eventually take more vacations - and eventually consider purchasing more points as they take more vacations. It's a longer term strategic play toward owner satisfaction. *Yes, it's at the expense of a very small subset of commercial renters/owners - but if it's not already obvious - this subset of owners is no longer a priority to Wyndham moving forward.*



A great way to treat your best customers -- pee on their legs.


----------



## WhiskeyJack

The new restrictions are still confusing to me based on my conversations with Owner Care.  However I think when reading the language on the website it is not entirely confusing.  Here is what the website currently says:

"You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests."

So I read this to say that if an owner has a reservation at a restricted resort during the restricted dates then they can have up to the limit of guest confirmations.

In addition up to two times (I assume based on calendar year but nothing is said about timing) an owner can have two confirmations at restricted resorts, restricted dates, without having to have an owner reservation at that resort during that time.

So that seems somewhat clear to me; up to the limit of GCs when the owner has a "matching" reservation and only two (per year I assume) if the owner does not have a "matching" reservation.

What is definitely not clear to me is, what is a "matching" reservation?  The email said the reservations (owner and guest) had to have just one overlapping day.  The website doesn't make any indication of this.  Does anybody have any experience with this yet?  Would one overlapping day be sufficient or would the owner reservation need to be the same dates as the guest reservation?


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> Not sure this belongs here on in another thread...
> 
> I see Desert Blue on the blackout list but not the Margaritaville at Desert Blue.  Anyone have any insight on that?  I wondered if the Margaritaville is safe to put a guest confirmation on our not. I called and the VC said that since they are in the same building, Margaritaville is also included (as a blacked out resort). I see Inn on Long Wharf Long Wharf both listed so... still left wondering.  Anyone else called on this or have more information?



Long Wharf and Inn on Long Wharf are distinct properties. Not comparable to Desert Blue/Margarita at Desert Blue.

The Desert Blue/Margaritaville at Desert Blue sounds like a trap if it is as the VC said.  I wonder if the VC just made it up.


----------



## Sandi Bo

chapjim said:


> Long Wharf and Inn on Long Wharf are distinct properties. Not comparable to Desert Blue/Margarita at Desert Blue.
> 
> The Desert Blue/Margaritaville at Desert Blue sounds like a trap if it is as the VC said.  I wonder if the VC just made it up.


My guess is the latter. But who wants to test that?


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> This reminds me, on Facebook several owners have mentioned that they called and were told that as long as their guest doesn’t check in _on one of the blackout dates_ they’re fine. Check in on Thursday, stay the weekend, it doesn’t count.
> 
> I have a bad feeling about this.



Me, too!  There's nothing in the letter or on the website to support this.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> My guess is the latter. But who wants to test that?



I don't want to test any of it.  I don't have enough points left in 2020 2021 to try anything out.  I would hope we have it figured out by 2021 2022!

Edited.


----------



## dgalati

[/QUOTE]





HitchHiker71 said:


> The new restrictions will produce empty rooms in the short term.  That is a known quantity and is by design IMHO.  If Wyndham wants to address the issue of limited inventory due to too much rental activity, the _first _step is to free up inventory - and create the necessary slack in the inventory system - which is exactly what is being done. The next steps are to modify behavior with existing owners who've become so frustrated with the lack of availability that they no longer bother to check - and don't use their ownership as a result. Re-education takes time - probably a couple of years - but eventually the bet, IMHO, is that the subset of owners who've been so frustrated with the lack of available inventory will start to see more inventory available in the system - and eventually take more vacations - and eventually consider purchasing more points as they take more vacations. It's a longer term strategic play toward owner satisfaction. Yes, it's at the expense of a very small subset of commercial renters/owners - but if it's not already obvious - this subset of owners is no longer a priority to Wyndham moving forward.


It may also help guys like me to buy back into Wyndham if it becomes cheaper to own than rent from a VIP owner. I hope this doesn't offend or shame anyone.


----------



## Eric B

chapjim said:


> I don't want to test any of it.  I don't have enough points left in 2020 to try anything out.  I would hope we have it figured out by 2021!



I think the 2020-2021 ship has sailed….


----------



## Sandi Bo

But didn't they get rid of the super mega renters two years ago?  And yet what changed? And they got rid of cancel/rebook.  People are still whining because there are no rooms.  Because they aren't willing to put any time into finding things.  And likely continuing to struggle with the latest system (since implementation of Voyager). How many requests have we've seen for better search capabilities, for show me ANYTHING I can book - I want to go,  don't care where. What about that next available feature that was taken away over 4 years ago. And how about bringing back 1 night stays.  If they really wanted to make the current owner base happy, they'd be looking at those things.  My money's on that same subset of owners whining today will be whining next year and the year after. And Wyndham rentals will be up.  Sorry, creating slack in the inventory system after the past year and a half of covid, and everyone thinking how nice Wyndham was being to let us roll points forward (which btw meant nothing to a VIP platinum or founder)? 

It's just crazy to me all the speculation by so many. Why can't Wyndham just be straight with us? What is a megarenter? What criteria are they using to determine commercial renting? Renting is renting, people justify what works for them. Wyndham needs to say something like - as many guest confirmations as you are entitled to or a percentage of your ownership (base it on points not GC's). It's just crazy all the speculation - because Wyndham doesn't ever seem to be straight forward and honest.  Why not place limitations on resale, how many points can be added to an account?  How many times have people asked how many contracts can be in an account - and no one really knows. Why is that so hard? Wyndham makes the timeshare business dirty.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> It's just crazy to me all the speculation by so many. Why can't Wyndham just be straight with us? What is a megarenter? What criteria are they using to determine commercial renting? Renting is renting, people justify what works for them. Wyndham needs to say something like - as many guest confirmations as you are entitled to or a percentage of your ownership (base it on points not GC's). It's just crazy all the speculation - because Wyndham doesn't ever seem to be straight forward and honest.  Why not place limitations on resale, how many points can be added to an account?  How many times have people asked how many contracts can be in an account - and no one really knows. Why is that so hard? Wyndham makes the timeshare business dirty.


Its a data base that can be created if all owners that recieved the violation letter would post about their situation. No shame intended. These are the questions many owners that rent want answers to. Seems to be a reasonable request but it has offended some that don't want to talk about it or worse yet pretend if it is ignored  it may not effect their rental strategy.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Its a data base that can be created if all owners that recieved the violation letter would post about their situation. No shame intended. These are the questions many owners that rent want answers to. Seems to be a reasonable request but it has offended some that don't want to talk about it or worse yet pretend if it is ignored  it may not effect their rental strategy.


We've been talking about this for years, for as long as I've been around Wyndham.  Why can't Wyndham be straightforward about it and tell us? Why should we create a database and try and figure it out? They're the ones identifying commercial users - why can't they say how? If they'd explain what's acceptable and what's not, people could follow the rules. Hard to follow the rules when we're all guessing what they are.


----------



## troy12n

Surely most of us have been at some sort of "update" where they try to use the idea of buying more points and renting them to cover MF. It's happened to me twice, once, the hardest sell attempt was at Canterbury in 2019.

But the elephant in the room is that these sales pitches are in the couple hundred thousand points range. And the intent is to make a couple, a few rentals a year tops. Wyndham doesn't care about these people. 

Not somewhere in the neighborhood of millions of points and 150 GC's, like the person crying on Facebook did. They lost all sympathy and credibility in my eyes when that revelation was made. We all lost out last year because of COVID, just because you were sitting on 1.5 million points and moved all of them forward doesn't give you any more rights to book than the rest of us. 

That's why a lot of the comments from the peanut gallery here nothing but stirring the pot for their own personal vendettas


----------



## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> if it's not already obvious - this subset of owners is no longer a priority to Wyndham moving forward.


That's been pretty clear for a long time now---dating back to the days when they stopped the ability to transfer points between accounts. It might go back even farther, but that's near when I became an owner.


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> Surely most of us have been at some sort of "update" where they try to use the idea of buying more points and renting them to cover MF. It's happened to me twice, once, the hardest sell attempt was at Canterbury in 2019.
> 
> But the elephant in the room is that these sales pitches are in the couple hundred thousand points range. And the intent is to make a couple, a few rentals a year tops. Wyndham doesn't care about these people.
> 
> Not somewhere in the neighborhood of millions of points and 150 GC's, like the person crying on Facebook did. They lost all sympathy and credibility in my eyes when that revelation was made. We all lost out last year because of COVID, just because you were sitting on 1.5 million points and moved all of them forward doesn't give you any more rights to book than the rest of us.
> 
> That's why a lot of the comments from the peanut gallery here nothing but stirring the pot for their own personal vendettas


 No but hopefully the same rights as the rest of you.


----------



## chapjim

Eric B said:


> I think the 2020-2021 ship has sailed….



No wonder I don't have any points left!


----------



## Lisa P

Sandi Bo said:


> Sorry, creating slack in the inventory system after the past year and a half of covid...


"Creating slack"... this made me wonder...
...remember when there was a big issue about multiple popular resorts being overbooked and resorts unable to "find" reservations in the computer system??? Wouldn't it be weird if another repeat of overbooking errors was discovered and Wyndham decided to strip away rentals just so they wouldn't have to turn away all those overbooked owners? I have absolutely NO evidence of this. It's just always bothered me that the policy was initiated with so little advance notice as though the need was urgent. Just thinkin' out loud here.



Sandi Bo said:


> If they'd explain what's acceptable and what's not, people could follow the rules.


You're a kind and trusting soul, aren't you, thinking the best of people? 
Sadly, if they explain with too many details, the more neatly they pave the pathway to loopholes for those who want to _skirt_ the rules.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Lisa P said:


> You're a kind and trusting soul, aren't you, thinking the best of people?
> Sadly, if they explain with too many details, the more neatly they pave the pathway to loopholes for those who want to _skirt_ the rules.


Perhaps, lol, but I also am a career IT-er. Developer, Quality Assurance, and Business Analysis.  I only expect from Wyndham what was expected of me, if I were doing my job correctly. Thinking about it, if there is one character trait of mine that is likely on every annual review of mine, it is that I am detailed oriented. It was my job to make sure there weren't loopholes. As a developer in the code, as a BA, in the processes themselves. As a tester, damn right I did everything possible to break things. It is not unreasonable to expect Wyndham to think things through and not have loopholes. Historically, they don't have too good of a track record around business processes or systems. For the many loopholes we've seen in the past to the current rollout of blackout dates, etc, the one consistent thing about Wyndham is that it is not well thought out and there will continue to be loopholes.


----------



## Free2Roam

Sandi Bo said:


> Perhaps, lol, but I also am a career IT-er. Developer, Quality Assurance, and Business Analysis. I only expect from Wyndham what was expected of me, if I were doing my job correctly. Thinking about it, if there is one character trait of mine that is likely on every annual review of mine, it is that I am detailed oriented. It was my job to make sure there weren't loopholes. As a developer in the code, as a BA, in the processes themselves. As a tester, damn right I did everything possible to break things. It is not unreasonable to expect Wyndham to think things through and not have loopholes. Historically, they don't have too good of a track record around business processes or systems. For the many loopholes we've seen in the past to the current rollout of blackout dates, etc, the one consistent thing about Wyndham is that it is not well thought out and there will continue to be loopholes.



We've had parallel careers. I agree with every word of this! It amazes me how so many companies these days put out crap and let the public do the QA testing. I've noticed it more in the last 8-10 years or so.


----------



## dgalati

Free2Roam said:


> We've had parallel careers. I agree with every word of this! It amazes me how so many companies these days put out crap and let the public do the QA testing. I've noticed it more in the last 8-10 years or so.


In the field I work in this is called value engineering.


----------



## bnoble

Free2Roam said:


> It amazes me how so many companies these days put out crap and let the public do the QA testing.


I just finished (re-)reading Butler Lampson's excellent (and recently revised) Hints for System Design. One of the quotes in that paper was:

_"Smart software companies know that reliable software is not cost effective. ... It’s much cheaper to release buggy software and fix the 5% to 10% of bugs... people complain about." —Bruce Schneier_


----------



## Free2Roam

bnoble said:


> I just finished (re-)reading Butler Lampson's excellent (and recently revised) Hints for System Design. One of the quotes in that paper was:
> 
> _"Smart software companies know that reliable software is not cost effective. ... It’s much cheaper to release buggy software and fix the 5% to 10% of bugs... people complain about." —Bruce Schneier_


I guess I've worked way too hard (or maybe I just cared too much) over the years. But honestly, if I had to do it over, I'd do the same thing. 

Also, most of the software I developed/maintained was for in-house customers... not the public. Perhaps that's the difference?

At any rate... the "enhancements" that Wyndham has put out over the past few years are a total embarrassment.


----------



## dgalati

Free2Roam said:


> I guess I've worked way too hard (or maybe I just cared too much) over the years. But honestly, if I had to do it over, I'd do the same thing.
> 
> Also, most of the software I developed/maintained was for in-house customers... not the public. Perhaps that's the difference?
> 
> At any rate... the "enhancements" that Wyndham has put out over the past few years are a total embarrassment.


Most failed miserably!


----------



## lost patience

lost patience said:


> OC best guess is the system was programmed to look for overlaps only on the restricted nights.  In this case Fri and Sat.  My overlap night was on Sun.  Therefore, without an overlap on Fri or Sat night the system flagged my reservations.  They did create a case number.  Should they get back with me I'll report an update.  If this hypothesis is correct we have another case of programming that was not vetted well before implementation.


Time for an update.  To refresh memories - I had a reservation for Labor Day weekend that was cancelled even though I had the required overlap.  OC sent me an email saying they were still trying to figure out what happened.  Then OC called to say they had no idea what happened.  Then, OC called to say they acknowledged they had an error in their report, but had since fixed the error and my reservation was one of a few that was cancelled in error.


----------



## CO skier

Sandi Bo said:


> We've been talking about this for years, for as long as I've been around Wyndham.  Why can't Wyndham be straightforward about it and tell us? Why should we create a database and try and figure it out? They're the ones identifying commercial users - why can't they say how? If they'd explain what's acceptable and what's not, people could follow the rules. Hard to follow the rules when we're all guessing what they are.


Because it is Wyndham's sandbox and rules and not yours, or any other renters'.

There.  Are you satisfied?


----------



## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> Because it is Wyndham's sandbox and rules and not yours, or any other renters'.
> 
> There.  Are you satisfied?


 Ah the old 'because I said so'. Might work in the 6-10 crowd.


----------



## Eric B

That's kind of pedantic, don't you think...?


----------



## bnoble

Sandi Bo said:


> Ah the old 'because I said so'. Might work in the 6-10 crowd.


I don't think it's quite that. Rather, I suspect Wyndham's position is that it is not in their interests to publish "how much renting is okay" because it's not about _how much_ as opposed to _why_. And my guess is that Wyndham frowns upon a _why_ that is "I'm trying to make a little money off my ownership as a reason for owning some of it," no matter how much money one does or does not make. Again, that's just a guess, but it seems consistent with what I know so far.

But, it's also true that it _is_ their sandbox---and they've demonstrated a willingness to use that power unflinchingly in the past. So, while we might not like "because I said so," that might also be the reality.


----------



## dgalati

bnoble said:


> I don't think it's quite that. Rather, I suspect Wyndham's position is that it is not in their interests to publish "how much renting is okay" because it's not about _how much_ as opposed to _why_. And my guess is that Wyndham frowns upon a _why_ that is "I'm trying to make a little money off my ownership as a reason for owning some of it," no matter how much money one does or does not make. Again, that's just a guess, but it seems consistent with what I know so far.
> 
> But, it's also true that it _is_ their sandbox---and they've demonstrated a willingness to use that power unflinchingly in the past. So, while we might not like "because I said so," that might also be the reality.


Its a moving target and they can move the goal posts when necessary. Like it or not they set the rules. Follow them or find another sandbox to play in.


----------



## Silverdollar

dgalati said:


> Its a moving target and they can move the goal posts when necessary. Like it or not they set the rules. Follow them or find another sandbox to play in.


I don't have any resale contracts so this doesn't affect me directly. It's the accumulation of all the changes to VIP benefits in recent years, not to mention the frustration of an inferior website, and ongoing untruths by Wyndham's sales force.

I could find another sandbox to play in, but I paid a lot to play in this one and the return on a Certified Exit is zero cents on the dollar.


----------



## wjappraise

Well I’m finally back to posting after time at Bonnet Creek. 

I wanted to post the screen shots for the Wyndham apologists who didn’t believe that Wyndham was playing with different rules for Extra Holidays. 

First one is a screen shot for Easter at Bonnet Creek. Second one is showing that four bedroom units are offered at Bonnet Creek through EH even though they don’t have availability for Easter in the four bedroom Presidential. Third photo is a picture of the lunar landing just in case certain posters don’t believe that actually happened. 

Don’t doubt for a minute that EH or a new iteration will be the only player soon for rentals of Wyndham properties. 

Might be an anti trust violation. 

Just my opinion


----------



## chapjim

Since Wes has an EH post, I have an EH question.

I have a reservation during "owners only" at a Florida resort.  If I list it with Extra Holidays, am I violating the "owners only" restriction?


----------



## 55plus

Will Extra Holidays accept your reservation? Aren't they honoring Wyndham's restrictions too?


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Will Extra Holidays accept your reservation? Aren't they honoring Wyndham's restrictions too?



You and I have different ways of asking the same question.  If I'm violating the restriction, then EH shouldn't take it, right?  (Edit #2:  In retrospect, I'm not sure this is true and this is what @55plus is asking.  Perhaps listing on EH removes the stigma of a adding a guest to a reservation in a restricted period.  After all, I'm not the one doing the renting or adding a guest.  I'm just listing the week, making it available.  I know -- I may be splitting a hair. But, that's what we want to find out. And anyway, I'm not driving the bus, just looking for a ride.)

I'll try it out and let everyone know what happened.  It's the first of two consecutive January weeks at Royal Vista.  They're too good to cancel, so the alternative is to use it ourselves -- a very real possibility.  I'll be retired by then.

Edit #1:  I sent in the Extra Holidays Listing Agreement for a 2BR Deluxe at Royal Vista, January 8-15, 2022.  The last two days infringe upon the restricted period for MLK's Birthday Weekend (Jan 13-17).


----------



## 55plus

I hope Wyndham didn't just change the rules to eliminate owner rentals so they can grab prime time reservations for Extra Holidays.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> I hope Wyndham didn't just change the rules to eliminate owner rentals so they can grab prime time reservations for Extra Holidays.



Bingo. We have a winner! Someone who now sees the light. Or at least is beginning to see slight shadows and glimpses of light. 

Just my opinion. But keep watching as the Wyndham Mafia kills off the competition for its monopoly EH.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Bingo. We have a winner! Someone who now sees the light. Or at least is beginning to see slight shadows and glimpses of light.
> 
> Just my opinion. But keep watching as the Wyndham Mafia kills off the competition for its monopoly EH.


Its been the pattern over the last 6 years. Squeeze out the competition slowly. Unfourtunately for VIP owners that have counted on rental income to pay maintenance fees the last several months has really changed the strategy Wyndham sold them.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Its been the pattern over the last 6 years. Squeeze out the competition slowly. Unfourtunately for VIP owners that have counted on rental income to pay maintenance fees the last several months has really changed the strategy Wyndham sold them.


If an owner has a NEED to rent to others inorder to pay their maintenance fees, then they bought too many points and should off load the surplus. In my opinion one cannot have too many guns, but one can have too many points.


----------



## dgalati

I wonder if any Owners that rented multiple reservations and only used EH recieved the Wyndham letter that identified them as mega renters?


55plus said:


> If an owner has a NEED to rent to others inorder to pay their maintenance fees, then they bought too many points and should off load the surplus. In my opinion one cannot have too many guns, but one can have too many points.


No  especially now that Wyndham closed the loophole. It was also the reason I always said it was cheaper to rent then buy. The enforcement of resale points not being used with VIP benefits will more then likely force guys like me to buy more points. A huge win for owners booking for personal use but also for Wyndham to sell some of the certified exit inventory they are taking back by the boat load now.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> I hope Wyndham didn't just change the rules to eliminate owner rentals so they can grab prime time reservations for Extra Holidays.



Ding! Ding! Ding!  So much for "Wyndham Cares."  Cares for whom??

You know the EH Listing Agreement starts with something to the effect that listing with EH should be a last resort.  But, I suspect they will happily lap up these listings.  We'll see how righteous Wyndham is.


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> I always said it was cheaper to rent then buy.


Won't be cheaper much longer, except maybe for very close friends and family.  EH is an expensive way to rent and cheap discounted rentals will most likely no longer be advertised in any forum.  May take a few months to work existing points out, but, it won't be long until you won't be able to say 'cheaper to rent than buy'.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> Won't be cheaper much longer, except maybe for very close friends and family.  EH is an expensive way to rent and cheap discounted rentals will most likely no longer be advertised in any forum.  May take a few months to work existing points out, but, it won't be long until you won't be able to say 'cheaper to rent than buy'.


Yes indeed. Wyndham has squeezed out the competition. Along the way they have created a new buyer of points they are taking back with certified exit by the boat load now!


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> If an owner has a NEED to rent to others inorder to pay their maintenance fees, then they bought too many points and should off load the surplus. In my opinion one cannot have too many guns, but one can have too many points.


But wait a minute, one of the sales tactics has been "sure you don't need all those points now, but you will when you retire.  Buy another contract now before the prices increase and you can rent out your unused points to cover the maintenance fees"


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> You and I have different ways of asking the same question. If I'm violating the restriction, then EH shouldn't take it, right? (Edit #2: In retrospect, I'm not sure this is true and this is what @55plus is asking. Perhaps listing on EH removes the stigma of a adding a guest to a reservation in a restricted period. After all, I'm not the one doing the renting or adding a guest. I'm just listing the week, making it available. I know -- I may be splitting a hair. But, that's what we want to find out. And anyway, I'm not driving the bus, just looking for a ride.)
> 
> I'll try it out and let everyone know what happened. It's the first of two consecutive January weeks at Royal Vista. They're too good to cancel, so the alternative is to use it ourselves -- a very real possibility. I'll be retired by then.
> 
> Edit #1: I sent in the Extra Holidays Listing Agreement for a 2BR Deluxe at Royal Vista, January 8-15, 2022. The last two days infringe upon the restricted period for MLK's Birthday Weekend (Jan 13-17).



Please do try and let us know how it turns out. Obviously it goes without saying that your test case will only be valid if the dates rented cross over into a listed blackout date range. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> If an owner has a NEED to rent to others inorder to pay their maintenance fees, then they bought too many points and should off load the surplus. In my opinion one cannot have too many guns, but one can have too many points.



In my opinion, one can have too many opinions, especially about what other people should do.


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> Please do try and let us know how it turns out. Obviously it goes without saying that your test case will only be valid *if the dates rented cross over into a listed blackout date range.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



As I said in Edit #1, the reservation runs into MLK's Birthday weekend, a restricted weekend at Royal Vista.


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> As I said in Edit #1, the reservation runs into MLK's Birthday weekend, a restricted weekend at Royal Vista.



Yes, but as we are all well aware, EH can rent only a portion of the submitted date range - so it’s possible EH may rent only the portion that does not fall into the blackout period - which is what we should see happen here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, but as we are all well aware, EH can rent only a portion of the submitted date range - so it’s possible EH may rent only the portion that does not fall into the blackout period - which is what we should see happen here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sooner or later owners will realize the rental gig is over.


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, but as we are all well aware, EH can rent only a portion of the submitted date range - so it’s possible EH may rent only the portion that does not fall into the blackout period - which is what we should see happen here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would super stink though, wouldn't it?  Seems unethical to me if EH would take a 7 night reservation knowing at best they would be able to rent 5 of the nights.


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> *Yes, but as we are all well aware, EH can rent only a portion of the submitted date range* - so it’s possible EH may rent only the portion that does not fall into the blackout period - which is what we should see happen here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We are not all well aware!  Have we seen something to the effect that EH is being bound by the restrictions?  I've seen a lot of speculation but nothing firm from Wyndham.

Really!  If someone wants a full week and Thursday and Friday run into the MLK's Birthday weekend restriction, do we know for a fact that EH won't rent the full week?  

(My week is Saturday-Saturday so I think I was wrong above when I said Friday and Saturday were the restricted nights.  Should be Thursday and Friday nights.)


----------



## paxsarah

I think what we’re well aware of (and what hitchhiker was saying) is that EH doesn’t have to rent the full reservation. What’s then speculative is if they would take a reservation that includes two blackout nights and intentionally hold back those nights, only renting (or placing for rent) the allowed nights.


----------



## Cyrus24

paxsarah said:


> I think what we’re well aware of (and what hitchhiker was saying) is that EH doesn’t have to rent the full reservation. What’s then speculative is if they would take a reservation that includes two blackout nights and intentionally hold back those nights, only renting (or placing for rent) the allowed nights.


It would be VERY wrong of Wyndham EH to accept the 7 days knowing that they’d only rent the 5 days.  Good test just to see just how slimy the Wyndham EH group is.


----------



## Eric B

Cyrus24 said:


> It would be VERY wrong of Wyndham EH to accept the 7 days knowing that they’d only rent the 5 days.  Good test just to see just how slimy the Wyndham EH group is.



Another option would be that they are uninformed.  I don't have the impression that the Wyndham organization as a whole is run all that well and avoids siloing different groups in order to avoid communication and execution issues.


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> I think what we’re well aware of (and what hitchhiker was saying) is that EH doesn’t have to rent the full reservation. What’s then speculative is if they would take a reservation that includes two blackout nights and intentionally hold back those nights, only renting (or placing for rent) the allowed nights.



EH never had to rent all the nights.  That has been a constant criticism of EH -- that you can give them a week and they can rent a night.

I took HitchHiker71's post to mean that EH would be precluded from renting two nights that are part of the restricted weekend, still an open question as far as I know.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I think what we’re well aware of (and what hitchhiker was saying) is that EH doesn’t have to rent the full reservation. What’s then speculative is if they would take a reservation that includes two blackout nights and intentionally hold back those nights, only renting (or placing for rent) the allowed nights.



Correct, it’s a well known fact that EH can rent only a subset of the submitted date range and often does exactly that. It’s been my number one complaint regarding the EH program whenever I’m asked for EH feedback. Since we have indications that Wyndham is honoring the same blackout periods - I would expect that the blackout dates in scope would not be rented - and therefore only a subset of the dates submitted would be rented by EH as part of this test. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> We are not all well aware!  Have we seen something to the effect that EH is being bound by the restrictions?  I've seen a lot of speculation but nothing firm from Wyndham.
> 
> Really!  If someone wants a full week and Thursday and Friday run into the MLK's Birthday weekend restriction, do we know for a fact that EH won't rent the full week?
> 
> (My week is Saturday-Saturday so I think I was wrong above when I said Friday and Saturday were the restricted nights.  Should be Thursday and Friday nights.)



I'm surprised that everyone is not well aware that only a portion of the submitted date range cannot be rented, since it's right in the T&Cs of the listing agreement that everyone must sign when submitting a reservation to EH for rental consideration.  As @paxsarah alluded to, we have seen a number of complaints on the FB forums over time from folks who have used EH and have had only a subset of the date range rented.  *IF* Wyndham is honoring the blackout periods - this is _precisely_ what we should see happen with your test.  If we do _not _see this end result - then we have reason to be concerned since what we have been told would not line up with the behavior observed.


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'm surprised that everyone is not well aware that only a portion of the submitted date range cannot be rented, since it's right in the T&Cs of the listing agreement that everyone must sign when submitting a reservation to EH for rental consideration.  As @paxsarah alluded to, we have seen a number of complaints on the FB forums over time from folks who have used EH and have had only a subset of the date range rented.  *IF* Wyndham is honoring the blackout periods - this is _precisely_ what we should see happen with your test.  If we do _not _see this end result - then we have reason to be concerned since what we have been told would not line up with the behavior observed.
> 
> View attachment 37923



Different things.  We know EH does not have to rent the entire reservation.  We know EH does not have to rent any of the reservation.

We don't know if EH will rent nights that are in a restricted period.  The week I submitted is a pretty desirable week -- a 2BR Deluxe unit January 8-15 at Royal Vista.  If EH accepts the listing and lists the entire seven nights, I would expect someone to grab it.  

If EH accepts the listing and lists only five nights, the question will have been answered.  And, I'll probably withdraw the listing and use the week (and the subsequent week) ourselves.


----------



## Cyrus24

chapjim said:


> Different things.  We know EH does not have to rent the entire reservation.  We know EH does not have to rent any of the reservation.
> 
> We don't know if EH will rent nights that are in a restricted period.  The week I submitted is a pretty desirable week -- a 2BR Deluxe unit January 8-15 at Royal Vista.  If EH accepts the listing and lists the entire seven nights, I would expect someone to grab it.
> 
> If EH accepts the listing and lists only five nights, the question will have been answered.  And, I'll probably withdraw the listing and use the week (and the subsequent week) ourselves.


So, they actually accepted the full 7 days into EH?  Contract all executed?  Even though 2 days are during Blackout?  Wrong on their part, IMHO, unless they plan on actually 'renting' during the Blackout dates, which I also think is wrong on their part.


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> Different things.  We know EH does not have to rent the entire reservation.  We know EH does not have to rent any of the reservation.
> 
> We don't know if EH will rent nights that are in a restricted period.  The week I submitted is a pretty desirable week -- a 2BR Deluxe unit January 8-15 at Royal Vista.  If EH accepts the listing and lists the entire seven nights, I would expect someone to grab it.
> 
> If EH accepts the listing and lists only five nights, the question will have been answered.  And, I'll probably withdraw the listing and use the week (and the subsequent week) ourselves.



Here's what I see on EH when looking at Royal Vista for the entire month of January.  I tried choosing Jan 10-17 and was told the dates I've chosen are unavailable at that resort.  I currently see Jan 11-15 as unavailable on the EH monthly calendar view.  This will be an interested test for sure.


----------



## chapjim

Cyrus24 said:


> So, they actually accepted the full 7 days into EH?  Contract all executed?  Even though 2 days are during Blackout?  Wrong on their part, IMHO, unless they plan on actually 'renting' during the Blackout dates, which I also think is wrong on their part.



Take it easy!  None of those things has happened.  Read the posting again.


----------



## Cyrus24

chapjim said:


> Take it easy!  None of those things has happened.  Read the posting again.


Got it.  You submitted the week but they have not yet accepted it.  My bad.  Anxious to hear about the acceptance/rejection.


----------



## chapjim

Cyrus24 said:


> Got it.  You submitted the week but they have not yet accepted it.  My bad.  Anxious to hear about the acceptance/rejection.



Me, too!  It kind of defines what my wife and I do this winter.   We can either do two weeks at Quarter House in New Orleans ending January 7th or the two weeks at Royal Vista starting January 8th.  Can't really do both.  Gotta go home from time to time to pick up the mail!


----------



## pangodad

dgalati said:


> I wonder if any Owners that rented multiple reservations and only used EH recieved the Wyndham letter that identified them as mega renters?
> 
> No  especially now that Wyndham closed the loophole. It was also the reason I always said it was cheaper to rent then buy. The enforcement of resale points not being used with VIP benefits will more then likely force guys like me to buy more points. A huge win for owners booking for personal use but also for Wyndham to sell some of the certified exit inventory they are taking back by the boat load now.


I think buying 3rd party and paying with full points will be cheaper than buying developer and paying half points (or so) for a family reservation. Also W is telling my clients in Sales meetings that renting cheaply will soon no longer be possible; therefore they should buy, buy, buy.


----------



## Ty1on

pangodad said:


> I think buying 3rd party and paying with full points will be cheaper than buying developer and paying half points (or so) for a family reservation. Also W is telling my clients in Sales meetings that renting cheaply will soon no longer be possible; therefore they should buy, buy, buy.



Salesmen are gonna say whatever they have to say to get you to sign that contract.  If you own Grand Desert, you have to have CWA instead.  If you own CWA, you have to have Grand Desert instead.  They've been saying the ability to rent cheaply will go away for many years.


----------



## bnoble

pangodad said:


> I think buying 3rd party and paying with full points will be cheaper than buying developer and paying half points (or so) for a family reservation.


That seems likely. What's telesales going for these days, $165/K? $135? I've lost track.

Even at $135, suppose you plan to amortize that over 20 years, assuming a value of zero at disposal, and 3% cost-of-capital. That's comes out to $9/K/year. It's pretty easy to beat that--even CWA does. CWA is currently around $7.50. If it goes up 5% per year, the VIP account won't pay off for five years. That's a long-ish horizon for something that is a moving target---and it assumes every single reservation is going to be half points.

At $165, it's $11/K/year, and a crossover point w/CWA of 8 years.

You can play with both CoC and inflation and get different numbers, but still. You might get a few $/K when you unload the developer purchase, but the same would be true if it was resale, so that's a wash.


----------



## dgalati

bnoble said:


> That seems likely. What's telesales going for these days, $165/K? $135? I've lost track.
> 
> Even at $135, suppose you plan to amortize that over 20 years, assuming a value of zero at disposal, and 3% cost-of-capital. That's comes out to $9/K/year. It's pretty easy to beat that--even CWA does. CWA is currently around $7.50. If it goes up 5% per year, the VIP account won't pay off for five years. That's a long-ish horizon for something that is a moving target---and it assumes every single reservation is going to be half points.
> 
> At $165, it's $11/K/year, and a crossover point w/CWA of 8 years.
> 
> You can play with both CoC and inflation and get different numbers, but still. You might get a few $/K when you unload the developer purchase, but the same would be true if it was resale, so that's a wash.


I know its all about dollars and cents to me also but your forgetting about the free upgrades and 50%-60% discounts in the 60 day discount window along with someones perceived value.


----------



## chapjim

NOW WE KNOW!  Got this email today:

*Web 60/40 V9.0 Agreement Exchange Canceled*


Reason: _Will not approve this document: Thank you for choosing Extra Holidays. Club Wyndham is now prioritizing owner reservations by limiting access to non-owners, including guest reservations at this resort during specified holidays and peak travel times. Please call us or visit www.extraholidays.com/owner-rentals for assistance._

Document Title: Web 60/40 V9.0
Status: Canceled
Parties:
James T. Chapman ([me]@yahoo.com)
Owner Rentals (Extra Holidays)
Richard F (Extra Holidays)
Owner Rentals (Extra Holidays) has terminated the agreement exchange for *Web 60/40 V9.0.* All parties who have participated in the transaction have been notified accordingly, and the document has been deleted from all parties' Adobe Sign accounts.


----------



## WyndhamBarter

chapjim said:


> pick up the mail!



Enjoy your owner-occupied two weeks at Royal Vista!  (If that's what you choose now.)

And thanks for posting this experiment for us all to read!


----------



## troy12n

Well, so much for that conspiracy theory... now can we get back to seeing this for what it is? Wyndham trying to help owners make bookings, and not help people with too much time on their hands play internet slumlord...


----------



## Eric B

Glad to see they’re following the prioritization!


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> Well, so much for that conspiracy theory... now can we get back to seeing this for what it is? Wyndham trying to help owners make bookings, and not help people with too much time on their hands play internet slumlord...



You sound more like Dominic every post.


----------



## 55plus

I guess some didn't get the memo about Glacier Canyon during Labor Day:









						2BDR/8@WYNDHAM GLACIER CANYON SEPT.3-9 - vacation rentals
					

Last Summer get-away at the indoor/outdoor water parks@Wyndham Glacier Canyon 2 bedrooms,2 full baths,full kitchen,washer/dryer,fire place,Jacuzzi tub in Master Suite Comes with 8 wristbands to all...



					madison.craigslist.org
				









						Glacier Canyon @ the Wilderness 2021 dates - vacation rentals
					

2021 Dates: Call for open dates on Sunday-Thursday. Sorry no weekends available. 2021 dates: Aug 15-18 1 bd. 3 nights $559. total cost Sep 2-5 1bd 3 nights $725 total cost ENJOY THE WATERPARK...



					madison.craigslist.org
				












						Wyndham at the Wilderness Now- next 60 days - vacation rentals
					

August 29-31 3 days 2 nights in a 2 bedroom deluxe $350 a night $700 total September 1-4 4 days 3 nights in a 2 bedroom deluxe $700 a night $2100 total September 3-6 4 days 3 nights in a 3 bedroom...



					madison.craigslist.org
				









						Glacier Canyon @ the Wilderness 2021 dates - vacation rentals
					

2021 Dates: Call for open dates on Sunday-Thursday. Sorry no weekends available. 2021 dates: Aug 15-18 1 bd. 3 nights $559. total cost Sep 2-5 1bd 3 nights $725 total cost ENJOY THE WATERPARK...



					madison.craigslist.org


----------



## troy12n

People on Facebook are complaining about some scheduled "Party Weekends" at BC that Wyndham is doing in late September. Don't know how this plays into things.


----------



## hnybee09

This is all making my head hurt lol. I have a trip planned for September to Bonnet Creek, since I have never been and am a new Wyndham owner (I just got my first contract in March 2021) jumped on Tripadvisor to look at what people say and see pictures of the resort. (Also wanted to see if I could find more information on the paid park shuttle I had called the resort and they told me $5pp per day, and I see $8pp per day elsewhere LOL). There are numerous reviews of the resort from people who had their reservations canceled either a few days before their trip or in a couple cases while they were traveling to the destination. My trip is weird and I don't think I have to worry but you never know....We are staying from Friday to the following Saturday, when we arrive the first 2 nights I booked with my points Fri/Sat, the next 6 nights we are staying on a guest reservation from my brother that was a rescheduled family trip from April 2020 and was rebooked in October 2020. My brother and his family are not traveling with us they had rescheduled to go earlier than we could.


----------



## Eric B

troy12n said:


> People on Facebook are complaining about some scheduled "Party Weekends" at BC that Wyndham is doing in late September. Don't know how this plays into things.



Probably doesn’t.  It is a good indication that they never read the offer details for that party weekend - accommodations are at the Wyndham Grand Bonnet Creek, which is the hotel.  Pretty sure the owner priority doesn’t apply there even if the dates are covered.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> Well, so much for that conspiracy theory... now can we get back to seeing this for what it is? Wyndham trying to help owners make bookings, and not help people with too much time on their hands play internet slumlord...


Why so harsh? Sales sold owners up to VIP on the basis of renting and covering all maintenance fees. Try to have some compassion for the VIP owners that played the system to their advantage. Unfortunately their time of milking the system with resale points & VIP discounts/free upgrades is over. Hopefully the end result is more availability for owners to book for personal use.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> Why so harsh? Sales sold owners up to VIP on the basis of renting and covering all maintenance fees. Try to have some compassion for the VIP owners that played the system to their advantage. Unfortunately their time of milking the system with resale points & VIP discounts/free upgrades is over. Hopefully the end result is more availability for owners to book for personal use.


If you book within 60 days, you are always still going to be in competition for owners who are VIP to get inventory for personal use.  This is still going to be an issue within 60 days.  So if you cannot plan further out, maybe timeshare isn't for you.  I know that inventory dwindles in every single system in that short window.  And that is why people pay big money to get out of their timeshares.  They do not plan ahead.  

You see people complain that they cannot use their timeshare when they want, no matter what system it is.  With our Hono Koa weeks, we have to call exactly a year out, the second the phones open for reservations.  If we get put on hold, we know we missed our opportunity for our date at exactly 365 days ahead.  Rick and I both call, and February dates are gone within seconds for our unit type.  We usually have to call back the next week to try again, and sometimes it's another week to try again.  I see inventory sitting online for April-May, all summer, fall, etc., for our unit type at Hono Koa.  Apparently people are not paying at all or are unhappy that they cannot get the dates they want.  It's a game to get what you want.  It's a game we play to get the dates we want.  

I have gotten all of my three weeks on ebay from sellers that charge owners to rid themselves of weeks.  These companies suck the life out of timeshare owners instead of helping.  Owner services at Soleil Management will tell you exactly how to get your whale season weeks at Hono Koa.  They know the game and they share the secrets.


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> La Belle Maison is completely closed for renovations until at least January 2022... and the other NOLA facility I think is just Suites and Hotel rooms, not quite the place renters want to send people



I did a lot of rentals in New Orleans, ...Avenue Plaza was my favorite.. small but full kitchens, courtyard with a pool (small but bigger than LaBelle Maison), on site parking, roof top deck, haunted house, and its right on the streetcar line. The only area where Avenue Plaza offers less than La Belle Maison is the bath...no bathtubs at Avenue Plaza and the bathrooms are 1950s small

Avenue Plaza has all studios and one bedroom units, no two  bedroom units. LaBelle has a few two bedrooms, but not many


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> If you try to book on the website, it shows zero availability from April through January 2022 though... it might not explicitly say that they are not taking new reservations, but they are indeed not. It's apparent they may be honoring what are already on the books. I actually tried to book there on Monday and found this out myself. I wanted to book 4th of July week actually.
> 
> I think I might be hesitant to stay there even if I had a booking during this time to be honest with you. It's going to be noisy and dirty and no amenities. But who knows, maybe lower occupancy may have benefits.




You go to New Orleans for the city, not the amenities at the resort


----------



## troy12n

ronparise said:


> LaBelle has a few two bedrooms, but not many



I don't know how many they have, but I have a 2BR 3/12-3/20/22. Both sites have paid parking, Avenue Plaza is a little cheaper because it's on-site I believe. Don't ever need a car there so it doesn't matter to me. I do wish La Belle had a pool though.

I've never seen a 2BR inside 60 days there


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> I don't know how many they have, but I have a 2BR 3/12-3/20/22. Both sites have paid parking, Avenue Plaza is a little cheaper because it's on-site I believe. Don't ever need a car there so it doesn't matter to me. I do wish La Belle had a pool though.
> 
> I've never seen a 2BR inside 60 days there



I wasnt talking about  the price to park when I said onsite parking is an advantage Avenue Plaza has over La Belle Maison. Its the convenience and security.. And I gotta say, I dont care that it dosent matter to you...What matters to you, (or me) is completely off topic and irrelevant.  The question you raised is "does it matter to renters?"



CO skier said:


> As a result of this latest move, there are going to be a lot of "little guys" who will be enjoying a Bonnet Creek, or Colorado Christmas skiing, or other high demand vacation this year that they paid for as a Club Wyndham owner in units previously reserved for rental to yet-to-be-named non-owners.



There it is...there's the fallacy in all your arguments against renting
Club Wyndham owners, be they "little guys" or megarenters have not *paid for* any particular high demand reservation. If all you you are able to reserve is a unit overlooking the dumpster at a ski resort in the summer...you got what you paid for.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Few, if any, because the affected reservations are so few, relative to the Club Wyndham universe.  This restricted access program would have to be greatly, and I mean GREATLY extended (like restricting all resorts during the summer), for any renters to "tap out" of their business as a result, or any "little renter" to not rent to recover at least some of their maintenance fees.
> 
> Even then it would be little compared to the abusers who were booted out of the Club; or renters who self-eliminated out of the Club, as a result of the introduction of automatic upgrades.


"Booted out" has such a negative connotation





the fact is we were paid to go away,,,, see the difference?


----------



## scootr5

55plus said:


> I guess some didn't get the memo about Glacier Canyon during Labor Day:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2BDR/8@WYNDHAM GLACIER CANYON SEPT.3-9 - vacation rentals
> 
> 
> Last Summer get-away at the indoor/outdoor water parks@Wyndham Glacier Canyon 2 bedrooms,2 full baths,full kitchen,washer/dryer,fire place,Jacuzzi tub in Master Suite Comes with 8 wristbands to all...
> 
> 
> 
> madison.craigslist.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glacier Canyon @ the Wilderness 2021 dates - vacation rentals
> 
> 
> 2021 Dates: Call for open dates on Sunday-Thursday. Sorry no weekends available. 2021 dates: Aug 15-18 1 bd. 3 nights $559. total cost Sep 2-5 1bd 3 nights $725 total cost ENJOY THE WATERPARK...
> 
> 
> 
> madison.craigslist.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wyndham at the Wilderness Now- next 60 days - vacation rentals
> 
> 
> August 29-31 3 days 2 nights in a 2 bedroom deluxe $350 a night $700 total September 1-4 4 days 3 nights in a 2 bedroom deluxe $700 a night $2100 total September 3-6 4 days 3 nights in a 3 bedroom...
> 
> 
> 
> madison.craigslist.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glacier Canyon @ the Wilderness 2021 dates - vacation rentals
> 
> 
> 2021 Dates: Call for open dates on Sunday-Thursday. Sorry no weekends available. 2021 dates: Aug 15-18 1 bd. 3 nights $559. total cost Sep 2-5 1bd 3 nights $725 total cost ENJOY THE WATERPARK...
> 
> 
> 
> madison.craigslist.org



Perhaps, _or_ they were reservations made before the policy implementation, or they are using one of their two allowed GC when not travelling with the guest.

"The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *June 18, 2021*:"

"You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests."


----------



## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests."




Does this mean  an owner could make 10 reservations for  his various friends and family members at one of the restricted resorts at a restricted time, as long as he himself was staying at the resort.


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> Does this mean  an owner could make 10 reservations for  his various friends and family members at one of the restricted resorts at a restricted time, as long as he himself was staying at the resort.



That would be my interpretation of it; Wyndham's of course may differ.


----------



## Eric B

ronparise said:


> Does this mean  an owner could make 10 reservations for  his various friends and family members at one of the restricted resorts at a restricted time, as long as he himself was staying at the resort.



Only 9 - the owner’s  would be the tenth and get to the limit.


----------



## ronparise

Eric B said:


> Only 9 - the owner’s  would be the tenth and get to the limit.


  Got it, I forgot about that 10 reservation limit

and if my wife reserved a room  at La belle Maison for Mardi Gras,  and I reserved a room at Avenue Plaza we could reserve 9 more rooms at each resort for guests...does that sound possible

I only ask because I got a call from Wyndham recently, inviting me to an internet presentation, to explain all the new stuff to me. When I asked if this would end with a sales presentation she said, yes, as usual there would be an offer. I reminded her that I was on a do not sell list and wondered if that had changed.. She was convinced that if she couldnt sell to me , I wouldnt have ended up on her call list... So maybe Wyndham will let me own again

I think it may be time to have some fun.... Thats what timeshares are for...right??


----------



## Eric B

ronparise said:


> Got it, I forgot about that 10 reservation limit
> 
> and if my wife reserved a room  at La belle Maison for Mardi Gras,  and I reserved a room at Avenue Plaza we could reserve 9 more rooms at each resort for guests...does that sound possible
> 
> I only ask because I got a call from Wyndham recently, inviting me to an internet presentation, to explain all the new stuff to me. When I asked if this would end with a sales presentation she said, yes, as usual there would be an offer. I reminded her that I was on a do not sell list and wondered if that had changed.. She was convinced that if she couldnt sell to me , I wouldnt have ended up on her call list... So maybe Wyndham will let me own again
> 
> I think it may be time to have some fun.... Thats what timeshares are for...right??



I’m hoping the folks they have auditing all the hybrid VIP owner accounts are different than the ones putting together the call lists, then….


----------



## rickandcindy23

That ad was taken down from Craig's List.  

Interesting that a person could travel all over the country and still rent to guests while there and be in the clear from Wyndham's rules, but Wyndham makes rules and then changes them.  I would think just 3-4 groups at the same time you are there would maybe stay under the radar.  

We have a stay at Bonnet Creek in January.  We could easily drive to Vegas or anywhere else within 1,200 miles of home to stay while our guests were there and we could enjoy the resort and have our own car and not even pay for airfare and car rental (which has gotten ridiculously expensive, by the way).


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> Got it, I forgot about that 10 reservation limit
> 
> and if my wife reserved a room  at La belle Maison for Mardi Gras,  and I reserved a room at Avenue Plaza we could reserve 9 more rooms at each resort for guests...does that sound possible



Actually, for some reason Avenue Plaza is not restricted for Mardis Gras -only La Belle is. Go figure, as the parades pass right in front of AVP.


----------



## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> Actually, for some reason Avenue Plaza is not restricted for Mardis Gras -only La Belle is. Go figure, as the parades pass right in front of AVP.



 Can you post a copy of the guest restricted times and places so an interested non owner can see what you guys are talking about. or PM me one
'cause  Im confused again...still

Do I have this right?  most of the time an owner can reserve 10 rooms at a resort and put a guest in each one... but  at the restricted times and places there are no guests permitted, unless the owner is on site, and then  guests are permitted (up to the 10 room limit)


There used to be exceptions to the club rules for reservations made at your home resort during ARP, The difference was  you own the property.  Reservations made at other resorts are exchanges

Are their exceptions to the  10 room limit or the guest restrictions at your home resort during ARP?


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> Can you post a copy of the guest restricted times and places so an interested non owner can see what you guys are talking about. or PM me one
> 'cause  Im confused again...still
> 
> Do I have this right?  most of the time an owner can reserve 10 rooms at a resort and put a guest in each one... but  at the restricted times and places there are no guests permitted, unless the owner is on site, and then  guests are permitted (up to the 10 room limit)



You can see the list without being logged in.

You can also have a guest without the owner being on site, provided they are using one of their two included guest certificates per year (no paid GCs).


----------



## HitchHiker71

ronparise said:


> Can you post a copy of the guest restricted times and places so an interested non owner can see what you guys are talking about. or PM me one
> 'cause  Im confused again...still



It's listed right on the 1st page of this thread - here it is again as requested:









						Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
					

Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				






> Do I have this right?  most of the time an owner can reserve 10 rooms at a resort and put a guest in each one... but  at the restricted times and places there are no guests permitted, unless the owner is on site, and then  guests are permitted (up to the 10 room limit)
> 
> There used to be exceptions to the club rules for reservations made at your home resort during ARP, The difference was  you own the property.  Reservations made at other resorts are exchanges
> 
> Are their exceptions to the  10 room limit or the guest restrictions at your home resort during ARP?



Just be aware that there are now failsafes built into the system - meaning that the back office system now flags all suspicious outlier activity for GC usage - and then this process results in an account review - and a corresponding cease and desist letter being dispatched to the owner upon review - along with flagged automatic reservation cancellations due to the violation of the commercial use clauses.  This back office process runs regardless of the resort location - it's a logic based behavioral analysis of the offending account in other words.  Several of the MRs on here have already received these letters (though they likely won't admit to receiving them publicly - but they might PM you directly to share such information).  The system will no longer permit the offending commercial use behaviors any longer in other words.


----------



## ronparise

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's listed right on the 1st page of this thread - here it is again as requested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just be aware that there are now failsafes built into the system - meaning that the back office system now flags all suspicious outlier activity for GC usage - and then this process results in an account review - and a corresponding cease and desist letter being dispatched to the owner upon review - along with flagged automatic reservation cancellations due to the violation of the commercial use clauses.  This back office process runs regardless of the resort location - it's a logic based behavioral analysis of the offending account in other words.  Several of the MRs on here have already received these letters (though they likely won't admit to receiving them publicly - but they might PM you directly to share such information).  The system will no longer permit the offending commercial use behaviors any longer in other words.




thanks, I missed that 


I understand a violation will result in cancellation, My question goes to what is a violation.  Specifically if I have a room reserved for me, do the restrictions apply? ie  can I have 9 guest reservations if im staying at the property too


----------



## bnoble

Ron, I think there are two senses of “violation”. First: the (publicly known) restricted resorts list. Second: the (not publicly known) operating definition of “commercial use” that Wyndham is using to generation C&D letters. You can avoid the first one easily. Avoiding the second one will be a roll of the dice.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's listed right on the 1st page of this thread - here it is again as requested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just be aware that there are now failsafes built into the system - meaning that the back office system now flags all suspicious outlier activity for GC usage - and then this process results in an account review - and a corresponding cease and desist letter being dispatched to the owner upon review - along with flagged automatic reservation cancellations due to the violation of the commercial use clauses.  This back office process runs regardless of the resort location - it's a logic based behavioral analysis of the offending account in other words.  Several of the MRs on here have already received these letters (though they likely won't admit to receiving them publicly - but they might PM you directly to share such information).  The system will no longer permit the offending commercial use behaviors any longer in other words.



More Availability. Just For Owners. 
IMHO these new policies are a good thing for owners looking to book for personal use.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> More Availability. Just For Owners.
> IMHO these new policies are a good thing for owners looking to book for personal use.


Now you sound like me. Have you been day drinking or are you on something?


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Now you sound like me. Have you been day drinking or are you on something?


Its 5 o'clock somewhere.  I have always promoted creating availability for owners use. Remember I am the guy that rented cheaper then owning. I beat this drum for the last 4 years. I know the system and griped about the abuse but I was able to travel for less compared to owning. Finally the pendulum is swinging back to the owners favor. I still laugh at your reply to the thread on privilege's.


----------



## Eric B

55plus said:


> Now you sound like me. Have you been day drinking or are you on something?



Now why would you assume that about someone that sounds like you…?


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's listed right on the 1st page of this thread - here it is again as requested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Priority Reservations for Club Wyndham Owners
> 
> 
> Club Wyndham owners get priority access to book timeshare vacations. Explore resort availability and learn more about this exclusive perk to timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just be aware that there are now failsafes built into the system - meaning that the back office system now flags all suspicious outlier activity for GC usage - and then this process results in an account review - and a corresponding cease and desist letter being dispatched to the owner upon review - along with flagged automatic reservation cancellations due to the violation of the commercial use clauses.  This back office process runs regardless of the resort location - it's a logic based behavioral analysis of the offending account in other words.  Several of the MRs on here have already received these letters (though they likely won't admit to receiving them publicly - but they might PM you directly to share such information).  The system will no longer permit the offending commercial use behaviors any longer in other words.


So here is a dumb question: If I reserve for a friend a stay every month and use 12 GC but never go with them and don’t receive compensation because I’m using up my shitload of excess points and somehow use up the rest of my 45 free GC as well for that use year - how does the system see this? Is it only unique GC that get flagged or is it # or is there some other fancy proprietary algorithm at work?


----------



## scootr5

They specify "may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests." Your first two would be OK, any beyond that should be cancelled.


----------



## VacayKat

scootr5 said:


> They specify "may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests." Your first two would be OK, then next 10 would be cancelled.


I said nothing about using them during restricted times or places. WAY too many places that could be used that are not restricted for that to be part of the equation. I am asking from a back-end algorithm question. As in- what would the system say about this?


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> So here is a dumb question: If I reserve for a friend a stay every month and use 12 GC but never go with them and don’t receive compensation because I’m using up my shitload of excess points and somehow use up the rest of my 45 free GC as well for that use year - how does the system see this? Is it only unique GC that get flagged or is it # or is there some other fancy proprietary algorithm at work?



As discussed as nauseam on other threads - Wyndham will likely never disclose the back end logic for outlier cases and any related thresholds. Just like they won’t share the logic used for automatic room upgrades as another example. 

That said, I would surmise that using up complimentary GCs will not result in any flagging of any account. Those GCs are after all, entitlements for your VIP account. I would surmise that, again as discussed ad nauseam, it is VIP accounts purchasing GCs beyond some higher threshold over a period of time sufficient to establish a pattern of behavior that are being flagged and that have received cease and desist letters as appropriate. 

Since the intent of a commercial use account is very different than the intent of a personal use account - it not difficult to identity the behavioral patterns unique to each type and then figure out which data points to evaluate with the logic engine.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

ronparise said:


> thanks, I missed that
> 
> 
> I understand a violation will result in cancellation, My question goes to what is a violation. Specifically if I have a room reserved for me, do the restrictions apply? ie can I have 9 guest reservations if im staying at the property too



Wyndham will never disclose the logic used to make this determination - as doing so would clearly define the boundary - which would be a very bad business decision on their part to say the least - given we are dealing with an extremely small subset of owners impacted - whereas the majority of the owner base could care less about this entire issue.  Businesses should manage and maintain transparency based upon the needs of the majority of the owner base - not the exceptions as is clearly the case in this instance.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> As discussed as nauseam on other threads - Wyndham will likely never disclose the back end logic for outlier cases and any related thresholds. Just like they won’t share the logic used for automatic room upgrades as another example.
> 
> That said, I would surmise that using up complimentary GCs will not result in any flagging of any account. Those GCs are after all, entitlements for your VIP account. I would surmise that, again as discussed ad nauseam, it is VIP accounts purchasing GCs beyond some higher threshold over a period of time sufficient to establish a pattern of behavior that are being flagged and that have received cease and desist letters as appropriate.
> 
> Since the intent of a commercial use account is very different than the intent of a personal use account - it not difficult to identity the behavioral patterns unique to each type and then figure out which data points to evaluate with the logic engine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok so I guess what I’m going to presume is that if I stay below my granted GC but don’t use one of the reservations for myself during an odd year due to life stuff, but in general have a healthy balance of using personally vs GC then Wyndham will default to not freaking out. I try to avoid making folks freak out, because it usually comes back to bite me.


----------



## Cyrus24

HitchHiker71 said:


> As discussed as nauseam on other threads - Wyndham will likely never disclose the back end logic for outlier cases and any related thresholds. Just like they won’t share the logic used for automatic room upgrades as another example.
> 
> That said, I would surmise that using up complimentary GCs will not result in any flagging of any account. Those GCs are after all, entitlements for your VIP account. I would surmise that, again as discussed ad nauseam, it is VIP accounts purchasing GCs beyond some higher threshold over a period of time sufficient to establish a pattern of behavior that are being flagged and that have received cease and desist letters as appropriate.
> 
> Since the intent of a commercial use account is very different than the intent of a personal use account - it not difficult to identity the behavioral patterns unique to each type and then figure out which data points to evaluate with the logic engine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I truly do appreciate your opinion, but, it's just that, opinion.  I know you don't like to hear Us vs. Wyndham but, Wyndham is the bad actor here, not the owners who have long used there account as they saw fit, within the bounds of Wyndhams' allowances.  I'm OK with the changes to resale, myself and others just want to know what the new rules are as it relates to the line over who will or will not get these dreadful C&D notes.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> Ok so I guess what I’m going to presume is that if I stay below my granted GC but don’t use one of the reservations for myself during an odd year due to life stuff, but in general have a healthy balance of using personally vs GC then Wyndham will default to not freaking out. I try to avoid making folks freak out, because it usually comes back to bite me.



Long story short - if you are using your account for personal use - the usage pattern likely won’t trigger any flags. The usage patterns for a commercial use account vs a personal use account are sufficiently disparate that the logic used to identify the behaviors for commercial use accounts should not flag personal use accounts - and even if it does - the review process should catch the exceptions and deal with them accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Long story short - if you are using your account for personal use - the usage pattern likely won’t trigger any flags. The usage patterns for a commercial use account vs a personal use account are sufficiently disparate that the logic used to identify the behaviors for commercial use accounts should not flag personal use accounts - and even if it does - the review process should catch the exceptions and deal with them accordingly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And one would hope there would be an appeals process. And a wyndham apology if they mistakenly target someone. (I’m just full of hope today, lol)
I think that is part of what frustrates me. I _*get*_ why they won’t reveal their reasoning, but they should at minimum reveal their process. Regular owners who get caught up in this madness need to know how it gets resolved. Identification is just the first step.
So if I were Wyndham I'd set up the following and tell owners about it - even if it is just in the directory:
1. Identification and letter sent with required steps the owner needs to take. And an outline of what the owner must present to rebut the accusation.
2. Rebuttal from owner or nonrebuttal (essentially an acceptance they will take the steps, without accepting the charge made by wyndham)
3. Review of the rebuttal by wyndham
4. Personal meeting (virtually) between wyndham and owner if disagreement continues.
5. Mediation if required
6. Arbitration if no agreement has been met
7. Legal proceedings if needed.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> I truly do appreciate your opinion, but, it's just that, opinion.  I know you don't like to hear Us vs. Wyndham but, Wyndham is the bad actor here, not the owners who have long used there account as they saw fit, within the bounds of Wyndhams' allowances.  I'm OK with the changes to resale, myself and others just want to know what the new rules are as it relates to the line over who will or will not get these dreadful C&D notes.



That's nice that you have that expectation - but be prepared to live with disappointment.  Both Wyndham AND the MRs are the bad actors here.  I've always said this - both Wyndham and the rulebreakers have culpability.  I sure hope everyone can see that point as valid.  If you are using your account for personal use - then you have nothing to worry about.  So the question that begs to be asked here then is:  are you using your account for anything other than personal use?  If you are, I'd be concerned.

Now let's take a step back and look at management by majority customer base.  Does this change impact the majority of the ownership base?  No it does not.  Good businesses focus on issues that impact the majority of their customer base and practice transparency for the majority of their customer base - we are talking about a small subset of 4000 owners - likely a tenth of one percent of the ownership base - that cares about this issue in any capacity.  Even given those facts - Wyndham still proactively communicated the upcoming changes to this extremely small subset of the ownership base.  They are being transparent about the upcoming changes to the extent that is feasible.  Tell me how it makes sense that Wyndham should tell anyone in this extremely small minority that _are _using their accounts for commercial use exactly how the logic works.  Does Microsoft expose any substantive information as to how their systems work within the black box of Azure or Office 365?  No they do not - and that's by design - because _no customer is entitled to that intellectual property, even under NDA.  _We as Wyndham customers are also _not _entitled to their intellectual property with respect to the logic of how their systems function either.  Honestly, why would ANY business spend time and effort attempting to appease an extremely small subset of their ownership that is likely already violating their terms of use?  I don't know about you - but the logic right there makes zero sense to me.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> That's nice that you have that expectation - but be prepared to live with disappointment.  Both Wyndham AND the MRs are the bad actors here.  I've always said this - both Wyndham an the rulebreakers have culpability.  I sure hope everyone can see that point as valid.  If you are using your account for personal use - then you have nothing to worry about.  So the question that begs to be asked here then is:  are you using your account for anything other than personal use?
> 
> Now let's take a step back and look at management by majority customer base.  Does this change impact the majority of the ownership base?  No it does not.  Good businesses focus on issues that impact the majority of their customer base and practice transparency for the majority of their customer base - we are talking about a small subset of 4000 owners - likely a tenth of one percent of the ownership base - that cares about this issue in any capacity.  Even given those facts - Wyndham still proactively communicated the upcoming changes to this extremely small subset of the ownership base.  They are being transparent about the upcoming changes to the extent that is feasible.  Tell me how it makes sense that Wyndham should tell anyone in this extremely small minority that _are _using their accounts for commercial use exactly how the logic works.  Does Microsoft expose any substantive information as to how their systems work within the black box of Azure or Office 365?  No they do not - and that's by design - because _no customer is entitled to that intellectual property, even under NDA.  _We as Wyndham customers are also _not _entitled to their intellectual property with respect to the logic of how their systems function either.  Honestly, why would ANY business spend time and effort attempting to appease an extremely small subset of their ownership that is likely already violating their terms of use?  I don't know about you - but the logic right there makes zero sense to me.



The elephant in the room is that commercial use by owners has been conducted at the expense of Wyndham via application of VIP discounts (which Wyndham pays for) to resale contracts.  I don't think the primary motivator for Wyndham here is owner availability, but rather to stop this corporate financial bleeding that has gone on for years.  I do believe that there will be some small benefit to run of the mill owners in abstract, but that wasn't the main goal.


----------



## dgalati

VacayKat said:


> And one would hope there would be an appeals process. And a wyndham apology if they mistakenly target someone. (I’m just full of hope today, lol)
> I think that is part of what frustrates me. I _*get*_ why they won’t reveal their reasoning, but they should at minimum reveal their process. Regular owners who get caught up in this madness need to know how it gets resolved. Identification is just the first step.
> So if I were Wyndham I'd set up the following and tell owners about it - even if it is just in the directory:
> 1. Identification and letter sent with required steps the owner needs to take. And an outline of what the owner must present to rebut the accusation.
> 2. Rebuttal from owner or nonrebuttal (essentially an acceptance they will take the steps, without accepting the charge made by wyndham)
> 3. Review of the rebuttal by wyndham
> 4. Personal meeting (virtually) between wyndham and owner if disagreement continues.
> 5. Mediation if required
> 6. Arbitration if no agreement has been met
> 7. Legal proceedings if needed.


Sounds like you want a level playing field. Wyndham has some culpability in the mega renter problem and they should admit some responsibility to it. Look at when they took out @ronparise they were tiring to crucify him but they were buying all his stripped deeds. My scenario was similar to Ron's but on a much smaller scale. Wyndham tried to squeeze me on a negative balance until I let them know they were the buyer of the deeds with no current use years points. There is a pattern of Wyndham not taking the  blame for what is going on in their house. They participated in buying deeds third party knowing that no points are available.  At least that was the case in my transactions as I insisted that it was stated no current use year points are available until 2020. I remember the Resale broker said it didn't matter that purchase agreement stated current use year points were available for 2019. I insisted it should read 2020. In hindsight it saved me probably $7200.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> And one would hope there would be an appeals process. And a wyndham apology if they mistakenly target someone. (I’m just full of hope today, lol)
> I think that is part of what frustrates me. I _*get*_ why they won’t reveal their reasoning, but they should at minimum reveal their process. Regular owners who get caught up in this madness need to know how it gets resolved. Identification is just the first step.
> So if I were Wyndham I'd set up the following and tell owners about it - even if it is just in the directory:
> 1. Identification and letter sent with required steps the owner needs to take. And an outline of what the owner must present to rebut the accusation.
> 2. Rebuttal from owner or nonrebuttal (essentially an acceptance they will take the steps, without accepting the charge made by wyndham)
> 3. Review of the rebuttal by wyndham
> 4. Personal meeting (virtually) between wyndham and owner if disagreement continues.
> 5. Mediation if required
> 6. Arbitration if no agreement has been met
> 7. Legal proceedings if needed.



Per the thread we have on this specific topic - we have a FAQ that clearly outlines to contact Wyndham with any questions or concerns - along with a dedicated toll free line for owners with detailed questions that was shared in the online education session (and in the same thread here on TUG).  I think the folks here on TUG have - at least to some extent - outsized and unrealistic expectations given the extremely narrow scope of impact for the announced change, that just happens to be overly represented here on the TUG Wyndham forums.  A simple phone call into the dedicated toll free line once the changes have been rolled out is the path forward to address any questions related to this change.  That is what I will be doing if/when necessary.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> The elephant in the room is that commercial use by owners has been conducted at the expense of Wyndham via application of VIP discounts (which Wyndham pays for) to resale contracts.  I don't think the primary motivator for Wyndham here is owner availability, but rather to stop this corporate financial bleeding that has gone on for years.  I do believe that there will be some small benefit to run of the mill owners in abstract, but that wasn't the main goal.



I don't disagree.  Oftentimes there are multiple reasons for taking certain business actions.  T&L has a fiduciary responsibility first and foremost to it's shareholders (to make profits).  So I'd assume that one of the reasons for VIP benefits no longer applying to resale contracts is because the cost-benefit ratio for the Sales & Marketing division is no longer a net positive - or perhaps there's a strategic change in play.  I'd surmise that given T&L has indicated future directions with respect to subscription products coming to market - that the strategic imperatives have changed - and those imperatives undoubtedly impact current business decisions as to how to fund certain programs - like the VIP program - over the medium to long term - so those changes need to start now as opposed to later down the line.  Yes, we suspect availability will get better for owners that plan proactively - but we can also confidently assert there are other benefits for T&L in play resulting from the announced changes.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Per the thread we have on this specific topic - we have a FAQ that clearly outlines to contact Wyndham with any questions or concerns - along with a dedicated toll free line for owners with detailed questions that was shared in the online education session (and in the same thread here on TUG).  I think the folks here on TUG have - at least to some extent - outsized and unrealistic expectations given the extremely narrow scope of impact for the announced change, that just happens to be overly represented here on the TUG Wyndham forums.  A simple phone call into the dedicated toll free line once the changes have been rolled out is the path forward to address any questions related to this change.  That is what I will be doing if/when necessary.


yes to what you said, but I was saying this is with regards to those singled out as violators- Wyndham needs to be transparent in their process, unless it is, you’re identified, do as we tell you or we cut off your access and you keep paying MF, which is probably illegal. Even if it is narrow scope there is a chance they identify someone incorrectly. And all owners have a right to know the process of how Wyndham deals with folks they consider violators. And they should have their legal dept phone number attached in some way, customer service or owner care just don’t have the answers or the authority for this.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> yes to what you said, but I was saying this is with regards to those singled out as violators- Wyndham needs to be transparent in their process, unless it is, you’re identified, do as we tell you or we cut off your access and you keep paying MF, which is probably illegal. Even if it is narrow scope there is a chance they identify someone incorrectly. And all owners have a right to know the process of how Wyndham deals with folks they consider violators. And they should have their legal dept phone number attached in some way, customer service or owner care just don’t have the answers or the authority for this.



Since we haven't seen the contents of the cease and desist letter - or at least I haven't - we cannot know either way what was provided - nor will Wyndham share the letters of course - and I suspect there may be multiple letter templates in play.  I would suspect contact information was given in the letter for the impacted owners to follow up with any questions or concerns - like a another dedicated line - but that's just a guess on my part - I honestly have no idea.  I also disagree with the assessment that all owners have a right to know the process.  So would any lawyer.  We are on a need to know basis, and we don't need to know.  That's like saying everyone should be able to know the process for a specific class action lawsuit even if they aren't included in the affected class.  Same concept - if you aren't in the affected class - you aren't entitled to any documentation or information about the either the class action case itself nor the proposed settlement process - and you are not privy to the list of plaintiffs nor the notice of settlement.  This is a legal process - defined and managed by lawyers - and Wyndham has very good lawyers.  Whatever we may think is largely irrelevant - it's the legal process that must be followed.


----------



## VacayKat

HitchHiker71 said:


> Since we haven't seen the contents of the cease and desist letter - or at least I haven't - we cannot know either way what was provided - nor will Wyndham share the letters of course - and I suspect there may be multiple letter templates in play.  I would suspect contact information was given in the letter for the impacted owners to follow up with any questions or concerns - like a another dedicated line - but that's just a guess on my part - I honestly have no idea.  I also disagree with the assessment that all owners have a right to know the process.  So would any lawyer.  We are on a need to know basis, and we don't need to know.  That's like saying everyone should be able to know the process for a specific class action lawsuit even if they aren't included in the affected class.  Same concept - if you aren't in the affected class - you aren't entitled to any documentation or information about the either the class action case itself nor the proposed settlement process - and you are not privy to the list of plaintiffs nor the notice of settlement.  This is a legal process - defined and managed by lawyers - and Wyndham has very good lawyers.  Whatever we may think is largely irrelevant - it's the legal process that must be followed.


Well let me rephrase it. If it is different than what is outlined in the contract I signed, yes, I have a right to know, and all lawyers would agree with that. There is *always* a clause in contracts that states what happens if one side breaches it. If there isn’t it is a deficient contract.


----------



## HitchHiker71

VacayKat said:


> Well let me rephrase it. If it is different than what is outlined in the contract I signed, yes, I have a right to know, and all lawyers would agree with that. There is *always* a clause in contracts that states what happens if one side breaches it. If there isn’t it is a deficient contract.



Agreed - but it's not limited to just the contract we all signed - but also all of the founding trust documents that are referenced in the signatured contracts.  I will confess to having reviewed the signatured documents - but still haven't read through the entirety of the founding trust document sets.  I'd have to go looking to see what legal verbiage exists as it relates to breach clauses, if any, within the founding trust documentation.


----------



## paxsarah

Today when I logged into my dashboard there was a banner at the top stating:
OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Owner Priority Reservations.
Learn More (button)

Is this new? It's nice that months after they instituted it they added an announcement that's impossible to miss.


----------



## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> Today when I logged into my dashboard there was a banner at the top stating:
> OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
> Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Owner Priority Reservations.
> Learn More (button)
> 
> Is this new? It's nice that months after they instituted it they added an announcement that's impossible to miss.



The banner is new.  Doesn't look like much has changed on the list.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> Today when I logged into my dashboard there was a banner at the top stating:
> OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
> Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Owner Priority Reservations.
> Learn More (button)
> 
> Is this new? It's nice that months after they instituted it they added an announcement that's impossible to miss.



IMHO this is a great example of not using a context sensitive help type feature that is prevalent on many websites today.  Context sensitive help features only appear when you actually select a function for which the help is directly applicable.  For example, having this banner alert appear for all owners upon login seems like overkill.  I'm hopeful that the banner is only appearing for owners who have actually used GCs in the current use year - otherwise Wyndham is advertising a banner that likely only applies to a subset of owners that actually use GCs.  My thought is - the banner should only appear - or a pop-up alert or a text block should only appear that would only bring this helpful information to light when the owner actually chooses the option to assign the reservation to a Guest via a GC.  That way - every time an owner selects that option - only then does this reminder appear - since it's really only applicable when processing a net new reservation or modifying an existing reservation.  If we have collective agreement that a more context sensitive help feature along this line would work better - I'm happy to add this to our sheet for review and follow up.


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> IMHO this is a great example of not using a context sensitive help type feature that is prevalent on many websites today.  Context sensitive help features only appear when you actually select a function for which the help is directly applicable.  For example, having this banner alert appear for all owners upon login seems like overkill.  I'm hopeful that the banner is only appearing for owners who have actually used GCs in the current use year - otherwise Wyndham is advertising a banner that likely only applies to a subset of owners that actually use GCs.  My thought is - the banner should only appear - or a pop-up alert or a text block should only appear that would only bring this helpful information to light when the owner actually chooses the option to assign the reservation to a Guest via a GC.  That way - every time an owner selects that option - only then does this reminder appear - since it's really only applicable when processing a net new reservation or modifying an existing reservation.  If we have collective agreement that a more context sensitive help feature along this line would work better - I'm happy to add this to our sheet for review and follow up.



My two cents $0.66 on this - if we were to add this to the sheet, I would suggest making it context specific to GCs for dates and resorts on the list.

The list itself on the site linked from the banner is one of the least user-friendly things I've seen because you have to open each specific holiday/period, without an indication of what dates are covered by it, in order to see what resorts are effected, then have to scan through the entire list because they didn't alphabetize them.  They are setting owners up for failure due to an incredibly poor design.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> IMHO this is a great example of not using a context sensitive help type feature that is prevalent on many websites today.  Context sensitive help features only appear when you actually select a function for which the help is directly applicable.  For example, having this banner alert appear for all owners upon login seems like overkill.  I'm hopeful that the banner is only appearing for owners who have actually used GCs in the current use year - otherwise Wyndham is advertising a banner that likely only applies to a subset of owners that actually use GCs.  My thought is - the banner should only appear - or a pop-up alert or a text block should only appear that would only bring this helpful information to light when the owner actually chooses the option to assign the reservation to a Guest via a GC.  That way - every time an owner selects that option - only then does this reminder appear - since it's really only applicable when processing a net new reservation or modifying an existing reservation.  If we have collective agreement that a more context sensitive help feature along this line would work better - I'm happy to add this to our sheet for review and follow up.



On the other hand, I'd be a big fan of Wyndham getting the simple one dimensional stuff to actually work right, then move on to more complex things like context sensitive messaging and filtering.


----------



## Lisa P

It's useful to me to see it before I make any reservations, just as a banner announcement. I'd want to know this _before_ I offer to book vacations for extended family & friends, not _after_ I've gone through all the trouble of researching availability and discussing preferences and schedules with everyone. So an eye-catching banner announcement for everyone for a couple of months makes sense to me. It won't be missed by people who don't read their emails or who used up their free GC's earlier in their use year.

I do wish the linked list was alphabetized and much more user friendly.


----------



## chapjim

Eric B said:


> My two cents $0.66 on this - if we were to add this to the sheet, I would suggest making it context specific to GCs for dates and resorts on the list.
> 
> The list itself on the site linked from the banner is one of the least user-friendly things I've seen because you have to open each specific holiday/period, without an indication of what dates are covered by it, in order to see what resorts are effected, then have to scan through the entire list because they didn't alphabetize them.  They are setting owners up for failure due to an* incredibly poor design*.



At least something unexpected didn't happen!


----------



## paxsarah

Lisa P said:


> It's useful to me to see it before I make any reservations, just as a banner announcement. I'd want to know this _before_ I offer to book vacations for extended family & friends, not _after_ I've gone through all the trouble of researching availability and discussing preferences and schedules with everyone. So an eye-catching banner announcement for everyone for a couple of months makes sense to me. It won't be missed by people who don't read their emails or who used up their free GC's earlier in their use year.
> 
> I do wish the linked list was alphabetized and much more user friendly.


I agree with this - everyone should see this at least once. Ideally there should be a “don’t show this again” option to click that then actually sticks and doesn’t show this again.


----------



## Ty1on

paxsarah said:


> I agree with this - everyone should see this at least once. Ideally there should be a “don’t show this again” option to click that then actually sticks and doesn’t show this again.



What if on the review page when making specific reservations, there is a context-specific note stating something like "guest certificates are not available for this reservation"?  It doesn't seem like that would be difficult to code in....


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> I agree with this - everyone should see this at least once. Ideally there should be a “don’t show this again” option to click that then actually sticks and doesn’t show this again.



Since I use Guest Confirmations now and then, I like that Wyndham is no longer playing Hide The Ball with the restricted list.  It was pretty hard to find so I expanded every entry on the list and printed it.  One more thing to check when making a reservation along with trying to decide what kind of points to use.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> It was pretty hard to find so I expanded every entry on the list and printed it.


To find it, I simply search “guest” and it’s typically the second result.
On the old website, I used to know pretty much the exact route to drill down through the menus to find any fact I needed. But apparently they can teach an old dog new tricks, because on the current site I’ve given up on menu paths and basically use the search to find everything - the drawback being that you kind of have to already know what you’re looking for.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I feel badly for those who occasionally did a rental to help pay fees but generally used most of their points themselves.  The workaround is to book guests when you are going to be there, too.  I am planning to do some of that myself.  I have some Bonnet Creek stays next year already worked out, but let's see if they let me add guests to some of those same weeks.


----------



## scootr5

Ty1on said:


> What if on the review page when making specific reservations, there is a context-specific note stating something like "guest certificates are not available for this reservation"?  It doesn't seem like that would be difficult to code in....



I think that would be far more difficult than you might suspect. A couple of reasons I can think of off the top of my head:
Has the owner used their free GCs yet for the year?
Is the owner going to be at the resort at the same time? Maybe the owner hasn't made their reservation yet.


----------



## Ty1on

scootr5 said:


> I think that would be far more difficult than you might suspect. A couple of reasons I can think of off the top of my head:
> Has the owner used their free GCs yet for the year?
> Is the owner going to be at the resort at the same time? Maybe the owner hasn't made their reservation yet.


"This reservation has restrictions to guest certificate use.  See rules" with a popup link.


----------



## Sandi Bo

paxsarah said:


> Today when I logged into my dashboard there was a banner at the top stating:
> OWNER PRIORITY RESERVATIONS
> Guest reservations are limited during peak travel times. Before you book a vacation for a guest, review the dates and information on Owner Priority Reservations.
> Learn More (button)
> 
> Is this new? It's nice that months after they instituted it they added an announcement that's impossible to miss.


Nothing is impossible to miss, LOL. 

Personally, I would suggest using the search function. It's something, if I were Wyndham, I would recommend for training to VC's. Searching for 'Owner priority', 'travel deals', etc.  It's a useful tool that might save a lot of calls to the VC's.  Might go a lot further than a popup suggesting to online users that they not call in (yes, I still get that). 

And then there's this....  The actual confirmation, what you'll see on a BC reservation today. What a mess (really the whole thing, mine refers to my PR benefits (and I'm not PR)).  It includes information that is, what, 6 months outdated now? 



> Any guest reservation made or added after March 15, 2021, for travel on June 25 – July 9, Nov. 19 – 27 & Dec. 17 – Jan. 2, 2022, will be subject to cancellation and notified via email. Points, housekeeping, reservation transaction(s), and guest confirmation(s) will be returned within 5-7 business days of cancellation.​


----------



## Sandi Bo

chapjim said:


> Since I use Guest Confirmations now and then, I like that Wyndham is no longer playing Hide The Ball with the restricted list.  It was pretty hard to find so I expanded every entry on the list and printed it.  One more thing to check when making a reservation along with trying to decide what kind of points to use.


It's still the same klugy, collapsed list...


----------



## paxsarah

New batch just dropped.


----------



## paxsarah

paxsarah said:


> New batch just dropped.





> The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:
> 
> JAN. 1 - FEB. 28, 2022
> 
> Club Wyndham Clearwater Beach
> Club Wyndham Royal Vista
> Margaritaville Vacation Club by Wyndham - Nashville
> Club Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk
> Club Wyndham Sedona
> Club Wyndham Royal Garden at Waikiki





> The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:
> 
> FEB. 11 - 13, 2022
> 
> Club Wyndham Anaheim
> Club Wyndham Harbour Lights
> Club Wyndham Indio





> The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:
> 
> MAR. 1 - APR. 30, 2022
> 
> Club Wyndham Clearwater Beach
> Club Wyndham Royal Vista
> Club Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk
> Club Wyndham Sedona
> Club Wyndham Royal Garden at Waikiki



And the big one...


> The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:
> 
> JUNE 1 - AUG. 15, 2022
> 
> Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard
> Club Wyndham at Majestic Sun
> Club Wyndham Panama City Beach
> Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon
> Club Wyndham Branson at The Meadows
> Club Wyndham Canterbury
> Club Wyndham Harbour Lights
> Club Wyndham Emerald Grande at Destin
> Club Wyndham Clearwater Beach
> Club Wyndham Royal Vista
> Margaritaville Vacation Club by Wyndham - Nashville
> Club Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk
> Club Wyndham Sedona
> Club Wyndham Royal Garden at Waikiki
> Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek


----------



## Ty1on

NM you were composing the rest of your post


----------



## Sandi Bo

Thanks for posting @paxsarah


----------



## paxsarah

Sandi Bo said:


> Thanks for posting @paxsarah


I was tipped off by some all-caps outrage on Facebook.


----------



## tschwa2

Does that mean you can add a guest cert today if you aren't travelling?


----------



## Sandi Bo

tschwa2 said:


> Does that mean you can add a guest cert today if you aren't travelling?


That's my understanding. If you have something booked and expect a guest versus owner to use it, you should be able to add the guest certificate by midnight and it would be safe. Famous last words, we've heard of a few oops by Wyndham's computer system accidentally cancelling stuff it should not have.


----------



## Jethro37

Just so we're clear.  Do all these blackouts apply to the 3rd guest certificate you issue at these times/locations each year?  Will certain guest certificates not count against peak season restrictions?


----------



## Sandi Bo

Jethro37 said:


> Just so we're clear.  Do all these blackouts apply to the 3rd guest certificate you issue at these times/locations each year?  Will certain guest certificates not count against peak season restrictions?


The answer is probably.  Until I can call Wyndham and they can tell me where I used my 2 GCs, or if I have one I can use, etc, I am not comfortable assuming anything is safe under the 2 allowable GC guidelines.


----------



## PhilD41

Well, I obviously have missed several updates... those from Sept and August. I believe I have updated my reservation checking tool accordingly. These last updates certainly killed a few of my rentals. I have no plans on canceling them until 15 days prior. Actually I think I may go book a few on key holidays just to hold till 15 days prior. I wonder if enough people played havoc on their inventory if they would end these shenanigans? I am getting tired enough of them to try.  Sorry for the mini rant.


----------



## tschwa2

PhilD41 said:


> Well, I obviously have missed several updates... those from Sept and August. I believe I have updated my reservation checking tool accordingly. These last updates certainly killed a few of my rentals. I have no plans on canceling them until 15 days prior. Actually I think I may go book a few on key holidays just to hold till 15 days prior. I wonder if enough people played havoc on their inventory if they would end these shenanigans? I am getting tired enough of them to try.  Sorry for the mini rant.


If enough people start doing that, my guess is they may start just keeping those reservations for extra holidays to rent out.


----------



## rickandcindy23

PhilD41 said:


> Well, I obviously have missed several updates... those from Sept and August. I believe I have updated my reservation checking tool accordingly. These last updates certainly killed a few of my rentals. I have no plans on canceling them until 15 days prior. Actually I think I may go book a few on key holidays just to hold till 15 days prior. I wonder if enough people played havoc on their inventory if they would end these shenanigans? I am getting tired enough of them to try.  Sorry for the mini rant.


Totally get the frustration!  Haven't seen you in a while.  Welcome back to the thread, such as it is.  I have stayed mostly away, just kind of watch things.


----------



## rickandcindy23

tschwa2 said:


> If enough people start doing that, my guess is they may start just keeping those reservations for extra holidays to rent out.


More power to 'em, and then regular owners will be upset.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Lucky that I do not have a single day of those restrictions booked.  But then again, I did avoid even picking those in the first place,  however that list was even broader than I would have thought.


----------



## Sandi Bo

tschwa2 said:


> If enough people start doing that, my guess is they may start just keeping those reservations for extra holidays to rent out.


Actually, doesn't all this make Extra Holidays even more worthless than many of us already thought it was?  They are honoring the black out dates, as far as I know.  It's preventing people from turning more sought after reservations to them. A hit for EH, and a hit for people who want to turn reservation over to EH.  Probably doing them a favor, but still...


----------



## chapjim

Big difference between prior restrictions and this batch.  Now they're blocking weeks, not weekends.


----------



## CO skier

*March 16, 2021*


jwalk03 said:


> How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?




*March 16, 2021*


CO skier said:


> How much availability is freed up through guest reservations at these resorts -- a few thousand?  Whatever the number is, it is a drop in the bucket.  Wyndham probably could have freed up as many reservations simply by eliminating guest reservations at Bonnet Creek and Glacier Canyon from mid-June to mid-August.
> 
> It is a strange, short list.  I am not one for conspiracy theories, but could this be a trial balloon for a larger, permanent program at the most sought after locations and dates?




*October 20, 2021*


paxsarah said:


> And the big one...
> 
> The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:
> 
> *JUNE 1 - AUG. 15, 2022*
> 
> Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard
> Club Wyndham at Majestic Sun
> Club Wyndham Panama City Beach
> *Club Wyndham Glacier Canyon*
> Club Wyndham Branson at The Meadows
> Club Wyndham Canterbury
> Club Wyndham Harbour Lights
> Club Wyndham Emerald Grande at Destin
> *Club Wyndham Clearwater Beach*
> Club Wyndham Royal Vista
> Margaritaville Vacation Club by Wyndham - Nashville
> Club Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk
> Club Wyndham Sedona
> Club Wyndham Royal Garden at Waikiki
> *Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek*




Clearwater is now on multiple guest restricted lists and Glacier Canyon and Bonnet Creek, among a number of other resorts, are restricted for the summer.

What an amazing coincidence.


----------



## CO skier

PhilD41 said:


> Actually I think I may go book a few on key holidays just to hold till 15 days prior. I wonder if enough people played havoc on their inventory if they would end these shenanigans?


Could it be that owners playing havoc with inventory through cancel/rebook/upgrade, points stripping from future years, building 60-million-resale-points businesses have led to the changes of the past few years.  I doubt that more havoc will lead to less regulations.


----------



## CO skier

PhilD41 said:


> Actually I think I may go book a few on key holidays just to hold till 15 days prior. I wonder if enough people played havoc on their inventory if they would end these shenanigans?





tschwa2 said:


> If enough people start doing that, my guess is they may start just keeping those reservations for extra holidays to rent out.



I thought it was determined that Extra Holidays was honoring the same guest restrictions?

My guess is that if people started playing games with the 15-day cancellation window, Wyndham would extend the cancellation window to 30 days, like WorldMark, or even 45 or 60 days.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> And the big one...



Is it just me, or are the date ranges and descriptions becoming more broad?  How exactly do we interpret "The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations"?  June 1 - Aug 15 is a broad date range.  I recall last summer's ranges being more targeted primarily to holiday weeks and weekends over the summer peak season.  Or am I not recalling correctly?


----------



## tschwa2

duplicate


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> Is it just me, or are the date ranges and descriptions becoming more broad?


Clearly.  Advantage Owners vs. Renters.



HitchHiker71 said:


> How exactly do we interpret "The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations"?  June 1 - Aug 15 is a broad date range.



Presumably, just like the previous restricted dates; i.e., if any date of a guest reservation falls within these dates at these resorts, it is restricted.


----------



## comicbookman

CO skier said:


> Could it be that owners playing havoc with inventory through cancel/rebook/upgrade, points stripping from future years, building 60-million-resale-points businesses have led to the changes of the past few years.  I doubt that more havoc will lead to less regulations.



It could, except that problem was solved, so the new restrictions are mostly just PR.   You don't want people renting out there points, then enforce that.  The new restrictions hit just as hard, if not harder on those of us who like to share our Wyndham points with our families.  I routinely book multiple units at thanksgiving for myself and my extended family.  No rentals, just us having our annual group holiday. Fortunately, there are usually enough owners on the account attending to cover, but some years not.  The owner with only one or 2 names on their account could not do this.  If they were truly targeting renters, they would crack down on renters.  If they really like the current method, then we should be able to add family members without obligating them to ownership.  Maybe x number of family per y number of points.  You can avoid abuse by renters by limiting when members can be added or subtracted.


----------



## Jethro37

comicbookman said:


> .  The new restrictions hit just as hard, if not harder on those of us who like to share our Wyndham points with our families.  I routinely book multiple units at thanksgiving for myself and my extended family.  No rentals, just us having our annual group holiday.



I thought guests certificates where you were on site with them did not count toward these restrictions.  Has that changed?


----------



## HitchHiker71

comicbookman said:


> It could, except that problem was solved, so the new restrictions are mostly just PR.   You don't want people renting out there points, then enforce that.  The new restrictions hit just as hard, if not harder on those of us who like to share our Wyndham points with our families.  I routinely book multiple units at thanksgiving for myself and my extended family.  No rentals, just us having our annual group holiday. Fortunately, there are usually enough owners on the account attending to cover, but some years not.  The owner with only one or 2 names on their account could not do this.  If they were truly targeting renters, they would crack down on renters.  If they really like the current method, then we should be able to add family members without obligating them to ownership.  Maybe x number of family per y number of points.  You can avoid abuse by renters by limiting when members can be added or subtracted.



This is why there was a recent Friends & Family survey that Wyndham has under consideration.  The F&F program will address this gap - at least in part.  I suspect the F&F program will be implemented sometime next year - but that's just speculation on my part to be clear.


----------



## Lisa P

comicbookman said:


> I routinely book multiple units at thanksgiving for myself and my extended family.  No rentals, just us having our annual group holiday. Fortunately, there are usually enough owners on the account attending to cover, but some years not.  The owner with only one or 2 names on their account could not do this.





Jethro37 said:


> I thought guests certificates where you were on site with them did not count toward these restrictions.  Has that changed?


You are correct. This has not changed. Comicbookman may continue to have multiple concurrent holiday reservations for groups traveling _*with him*_ and GCs for their rooms. We do this as well and the GCs _do not_ count against the 2 restricted GCs that we're allowed per year.


----------



## Lisa P

I received an email from Club Wyndham yesterday, 10/20/21. Since I don't always get the same emails as others have posted, I thought I'd share here, the most pertinent points from this one:
________________________________________________________
*Prioritizing Owner Reservations *​What started as a pilot earlier this year has helped more timeshare owners stay at the most sought-after destinations during the busiest holidays and events. We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:​​Fourth of July Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%​•          Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%​​Labor Day Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%​•          Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%​​We will continue to closely monitor opportunities to help more owners get on vacation. Your owner website is your best resource for the latest information on which resorts and peak travel periods are being prioritized for timeshare owner usage.​________________________________________________________
The email continued with suggestions for upcoming holidays/destinations and then referred to the recent "owners' meeting" with a link to view the broadcast recording. I appreciated all of this info. Hope others received it as well.


----------



## chapjim

Lisa P said:


> I received an email from Club Wyndham yesterday, 10/20/21. Since I don't always get the same emails as others have posted, I thought I'd share here, the most pertinent points from this one:
> ________________________________________________________
> *Prioritizing Owner Reservations *​What started as a pilot earlier this year has helped more timeshare owners stay at the most sought-after destinations during the busiest holidays and events. We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:​​Fourth of July Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%​•          Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%​​Labor Day Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%​•          Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%​​We will continue to closely monitor opportunities to help more owners get on vacation. Your owner website is your best resource for the latest information on which resorts and peak travel periods are being prioritized for timeshare owner usage.​________________________________________________________
> The email continued with suggestions for upcoming holidays/destinations and then referred to the recent "owners' meeting" with a link to view the broadcast recording. I appreciated all of this info. Hope others received it as well.



Wyndham has to make a better argument for restrictions than this.  The owner-occupancy increases could be nothing more than people getting out of their homes and going places.

It is totally misleading to compare July and September 2021 with July and September 2020, which probably had the lowest owner-occupancy rates ever.  Let's compare 2021 with 2019.

Wyndham execs shouldn't be spiking the football over these statistics.


----------



## kaljor

chapjim said:


> It is totally misleading to compare July and September 2021 with July and September 2020, which probably had the lowest owner-occupancy rates ever.  Let's compare 2021 with 2019.



These are the same figures they quoted at the Annual Meeting a few weeks ago, and at that point they did clearly state that these figures were compared to 2019 and not 2020


----------



## chapjim

kaljor said:


> These are the same figures they quoted at the Annual Meeting a few weeks ago, and at that point they did clearly state that these figures were compared to 2019 and not 2020



Okay, thanks for that.  That makes more sense.

Odd that the email doesn't mention that.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who had the same question.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Lisa P said:


> I received an email from Club Wyndham yesterday, 10/20/21. Since I don't always get the same emails as others have posted, I thought I'd share here, the most pertinent points from this one:
> ________________________________________________________
> *Prioritizing Owner Reservations *​What started as a pilot earlier this year has helped more timeshare owners stay at the most sought-after destinations during the busiest holidays and events. We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:​​Fourth of July Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%​•          Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%​​Labor Day Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%​•          Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%​​We will continue to closely monitor opportunities to help more owners get on vacation. Your owner website is your best resource for the latest information on which resorts and peak travel periods are being prioritized for timeshare owner usage.​________________________________________________________
> The email continued with suggestions for upcoming holidays/destinations and then referred to the recent "owners' meeting" with a link to view the broadcast recording. I appreciated all of this info. Hope others received it as well.


And what do these numbers really tell us?

What was total occupancy compared to previous years?
What percentage of the occupancy rates were EH in the past?

"There are* lies,* damned* lies* and* statistics."*


----------



## rickandcindy23

Sandi Bo said:


> And what do these numbers really tell us?
> 
> What was total occupancy compared to previous years?
> What percentage of the occupancy rates were EH in the past?
> 
> "There are* lies,* damned* lies* and* statistics."*


I was going to say that these should be higher.  So what are they bragging about?

Did you know that 78% of statistics are made up on the spot?


----------



## KimmieM

Lisa P said:


> I received an email from Club Wyndham yesterday, 10/20/21. Since I don't always get the same emails as others have posted, I thought I'd share here, the most pertinent points from this one:
> ________________________________________________________
> *Prioritizing Owner Reservations *​What started as a pilot earlier this year has helped more timeshare owners stay at the most sought-after destinations during the busiest holidays and events. We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:​​Fourth of July Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%​•          Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%​​Labor Day Holiday Period:​•          Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%​•          Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%​​We will continue to closely monitor opportunities to help more owners get on vacation. Your owner website is your best resource for the latest information on which resorts and peak travel periods are being prioritized for timeshare owner usage.​________________________________________________________
> The email continued with suggestions for upcoming holidays/destinations and then referred to the recent "owners' meeting" with a link to view the broadcast recording. I appreciated all of this info. Hope others received it as well.


This explains why rooms have been available on the busier holiday weekends. Glad to hear Wyndham is proactively helping owners book for personal use.


----------



## rickandcindy23

KimmieM said:


> This explains why rooms have been available on the busier holiday weekends. Glad to hear Wyndham is proactively helping owners book for personal use.


If they were available for me as a "mega renter" within 60 days, they were available to you.  I don't have priority over inventory within 60 days, but I do get discounts.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> And what do these numbers really tell us?
> 
> What was total occupancy compared to previous years?
> What percentage of the occupancy rates were EH in the past?
> 
> "There are* lies,* damned* lies* and* statistics."*



The level of detail they are quoting isn't published publicly AFAIK - so there's not any way to validate the statements - at least not over a specific holiday weekend and specific to owner occupancy.  The CWA POS does contain occupancy rate data for the vast majority of resorts - but I don't have a recent copy of the CWA POS with a 2020 or 2021 publish date - if anyone does - please send it to me.  

Here's an exerpt from the 5/1/2018 CWA POS and what I can see for 2017 occupancy rate data - I'm highlighting WBC resort for reference since this is one of the resorts mentioned:


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> The level of detail they are quoting isn't published publicly AFAIK - so there's not any way to validate the statements - at least not over a specific holiday weekend and specific to owner occupancy.  The CWA POS does contain occupancy rate data for the vast majority of resorts - but I don't have a recent copy of the CWA POS with a 2020 or 2021 publish date - if anyone does - please send it to me.
> 
> Here's an exerpt from the 5/1/2018 CWA POS and what I can see for 2017 occupancy rate data - I'm highlighting WBC resort for reference since this is one of the resorts mentioned:
> 
> View attachment 41320


Thanks for the information. To me it will be interesting, if the data is available, to see how the occupancy rates compare to this year when restrictions are in place. In the end, I really don't care much, as in I don't think it effects me one way or another. But it amazes/surprises me the comments made about this. I see a lot of confused people, mostly to Wyndham's advantage, but some angry because they really don't understand (they are angry when they should not be, IMO). I am referencing some comments I've seen on FB as well as here.  And totally my opinion, of course.

I also ponder this... when Wyndham states this:  
• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%

Is that an total percentage increase or a percentage of the 2019 numbers.   For example, say owner occupancy is 50% in 2019 (I have no idea what it actually was, just using 50% as an example).  Does that mean 2021 was 69% (50+19) or is it a 19% increase over 2019 which would be a 9.5% net increase and the number would be 59.5%   Easy to throw numbers around and daze and confuse folks. Wyndham math may not be all that strait-forward, but the daze and confuse seems to sell a lot of timeshares.


----------



## Eric B

rickandcindy23 said:


> I was going to say that these should be higher.  So what are they bragging about?
> 
> Did you know that 78% of statistics are made up on the spot?



That may be true, but only 38% of those are believed to be accurate….


----------



## Jethro37

Sandi Bo said:


> Is that an total percentage increase or a percentage of the 2019 numbers.



The way it reads and in all likelihood it's the latter.  i.e. 2021 percent = 2019 percent x 1.19

Which could be going from 30% to 35.7%


----------



## lost patience

I’m utterly frustrated with Wyndham’s implementation and management of the “owner priority” dates.  I've called a few times just to keep a pulse on how the 2 allowed guests are being tracked.   I know very well that I've used "one" of my "two" for 2021. I have heard all kinds of answers from the VCs. One told me I had not used any because they removed the older months from the list, so she could not see them any longer. Another told me that as my guest checked in on a Thursday it did not count.   They all state there is no "count" listing on our "accounts". The VCs have no idea as they were manually comparing my reservations to the owner priority list posted on the web site. The Thursday check in is just so utterly wrong.  I sent feedback via the website and in addition I sent an email to the Michael Brown email. I NEVER received a response.  What other options do we have to get Wyndham’s attention?  Wyndham can spend a lot of time and energy making these lists and creating some kind of “search” to ferret out and then cancel offenders.   What can we do to help them realize that they need better documentation of use of the 2 GPs/year as well as  improved education of the Vacation Counselors.


----------



## Sandi Bo

lost patience said:


> I’m utterly frustrated with Wyndham’s implementation and management of the “owner priority” dates.  I've called a few times just to keep a pulse on how the 2 allowed guests are being tracked.   I know very well that I've used "one" of my "two" for 2021. I have heard all kinds of answers from the VCs. One told me I had not used any because they removed the older months from the list, so she could not see them any longer. Another told me that as my guest checked in on a Thursday it did not count.   They all state there is no "count" listing on our "accounts". The VCs have no idea as they were manually comparing my reservations to the owner priority list posted on the web site. The Thursday check in is just so utterly wrong.  I sent feedback via the website and in addition I sent an email to the Michael Brown email. I NEVER received a response.  What other options do we have to get Wyndham’s attention?  Wyndham can spend a lot of time and energy making these lists and creating some kind of “search” to ferret out and then cancel offenders.   What can we do to help them realize that they need better documentation of use of the 2 GPs/year as well as  improved education of the Vacation Counselors.


I 100% agree with you.  VC's making stuff up has always been a problem. As far as the owner priority, I have had them tell me my reservation wasn't okay, read them the information we have available and convinced them it was okay, and been told I don't need to do anything, everything will be okay. But no warm fuzzies here, surely there has to be some type of indicator that a reservation is okay (or not).  Hearing people have had 'overrides' after pleading their cases, Wyndham has to somehow have a way to mark a reservation safe or not, and yet so much confusion.


----------



## paxsarah

It seems like this (the 2 safe guest certificates) should have some prime real estate on the Benefits Summary page.


----------



## CO skier

We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:

*Fourth of July Holiday Period:
• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%*
• Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%

*Labor Day Holiday Period:
• Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%*
• Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%



Sandi Bo said:


> And what do these numbers really tell us?
> 
> What was total occupancy compared to previous years?
> What percentage of the occupancy rates were EH in the past?
> 
> "There are* lies,* damned* lies* and* statistics."*





Jethro37 said:


> The way it reads and in all likelihood it's the latter.  i.e. 2021 percent = 2019 percent x 1.19
> 
> Which could be going from 30% to 35.7%




Except Wyndham Bonnet Creek is probably booked as close to 100% for the July Holiday Period as it ever gets.  Same for Park City at Labor Day.  That would mean the 19% and 30% increases are "for real."

Suggesting that Bonnet Creek is only 50% occupied for July 4th or Park City is only 30% occupied for Labor Day to try to minimize the effects of the owner priority policy is just making up some irrelevant math.


----------



## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> We have seen some impressive examples of owners taking advantage of the prioritization opportunities, such as:
> 
> *Fourth of July Holiday Period:
> • Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%*
> • Club Wyndham Riverside Suites — owner occupancy up 18%
> 
> *Labor Day Holiday Period:
> • Club Wyndham Park City — owner occupancy up 30%*
> • Club Wyndham Ocean Boulevard — owner occupancy up 35%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except Wyndham Bonnet Creek is probably booked as close to 100% for the July Holiday Period as it ever gets.  Same for Park City at Labor Day.  That would mean the 19% and 30% increases are "for real."
> 
> Suggesting that Bonnet Creek is only 50% occupied for July 4th or Park City is only 30% occupied for Labor Day to try to minimize the effects of the owner priority policy is just making up some irrelevant math.


These are owner occupancy rates, not overall occupancy rates.  I said it would be nice to see the actual occupancy rates.


----------



## CO skier

Sandi Bo said:


> These are owner occupancy rates, not overall occupancy rates.  I said it would be nice to see the actual occupancy rates.


Fair point, but is it reasonable or an exaggeration (you know, one of "those kinds" of statistics) to suggest Bonnet Creek was only 50% owner occupied and Park City was only 30% owner occupied during these holidays in 2019 to make the de minimis math work out?


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> Fair point, but is it reasonable or an exaggeration (you know, one of "those kinds" of statistics) to suggest Bonnet Creek was only 50% owner occupied and Park City was only 30% owner occupied during these holidays in 2019 to make the de minimis math work out?


I think the point, rather than trying to suggest that the hypothetical owner-occupancy rates were accurate, is just to say that Wyndham is being vague enough about their percent increases that we don't really know the concrete impact.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> Fair point, but is it reasonable or an exaggeration (you know, one of "those kinds" of statistics) to suggest Bonnet Creek was only 50% owner occupied and Park City was only 30% owner occupied during these holidays in 2019 to make the de minimis math work out?



Does anyone really think that Wyndham would have told us if the numbers had shown a decline or a _de minimis_ change?

Does anyone really think that Wyndham is above manipulating data?


----------



## Ty1on

Sandi Bo said:


> Thanks for the information. To me it will be interesting, if the data is available, to see how the occupancy rates compare to this year when restrictions are in place. In the end, I really don't care much, as in I don't think it effects me one way or another. But it amazes/surprises me the comments made about this. I see a lot of confused people, mostly to Wyndham's advantage, but some angry because they really don't understand (they are angry when they should not be, IMO). I am referencing some comments I've seen on FB as well as here.  And totally my opinion, of course.
> 
> I also ponder this... when Wyndham states this:
> • Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek — owner occupancy up 19%
> 
> Is that an total percentage increase or a percentage of the 2019 numbers.   For example, say owner occupancy is 50% in 2019 (I have no idea what it actually was, just using 50% as an example).  Does that mean 2021 was 69% (50+19) or is it a 19% increase over 2019 which would be a 9.5% net increase and the number would be 59.5%   Easy to throw numbers around and daze and confuse folks. Wyndham math may not be all that strait-forward, but the daze and confuse seems to sell a lot of timeshares.



I'm pretty sure it's a percentage increase (current occ - prior occ / prior occ)  

As far as the CWA Occ table shown by HitchHiker, that really doesn't tell any story with respect to the owner occ increase claim, because the table represents occupancy across all guest types: Owner, guest of owner, extra holidays, RCI, etc.  The idea is that if owner occ is up 19%, some other category is dropping.


----------



## chapjim

Ty1on said:


> I'm pretty sure it's a percentage increase (current occ - prior occ / prior occ)
> 
> As far as the CWA Occ table shown by HitchHiker, that really doesn't tell any story with respect to the owner occ increase claim, because the table represents occupancy across all guest types: Owner, guest of owner, extra holidays, RCI, etc.  The idea is that if owner occ is up 19%, some other category is dropping.



Why not show raw data?  How many owners checked in at [resort name] for Week X in 2019?  How many owners checked in at [resort name] for Week X in 2021?  What is the difference in raw numbers?  What was the percentage change?


----------



## Ty1on

chapjim said:


> Why not show raw data?  How many owners checked in at [resort name] for Week X in 2019?  How many owners checked in at [resort name] for Week X in 2021?



You know the answer to this question LOL


----------



## chapjim

Ty1on said:


> You know the answer to this question LOL



Yeah, I think I do! <grin>

Since Wyndham didn't give any really useful information, what does that tell us about Wyndham (other than being good at spinning data)?


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I think the point, rather than trying to suggest that the hypothetical owner-occupancy rates were accurate, is just to say that Wyndham is being vague enough about their percent increases that we don't really know the concrete impact.



I can always make the ask on the owner occupancy rates statements referred to in the owners meeting and now in the follow up email recently sent. 

In fact, let’s start a feedback bullet list and a list of follow up questions. The SVP just emailed me asking for collective feedback loops on the annual owners meeting, so now is the time to list out our feedback bullets. I’m on my phone right now so my ability to provide a list is limited, but if anyone else wants to make the effort to start a bullet list please do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B

My thoughts on the subject of metrics are that they are only worthwhile if they are meaningful, measurable, and actionable.  I don't think the metric of owner occupation percentage changes meets any other than the measurable, and as reported by Wyndham that doesn't really seem to fit either since it's not well explained.  I read the email with a great deal of skepticism because it seems like a lot of spin and makes a lot of assumptions that don't seem really well supported.

One metric that they don't seem to be touting is the change in the number of owners and the number of points owned.  IIRC, there was a slide that flashed up briefly in the annual meeting showing a decline in both of those numbers.  If I were working in the C suite at Wyndham, that would be one of the things I would look at as a metric and I sure wouldn't be bragging about it if they are both declining.  I have a hunch that the numbers won't be going in a great direction for them this year, either - hence the spin.

Looking at the owner occupancy rate from the perspective of whether it's meaningful gives me some pause.  I don't believe that Wyndham's Mission or Vision are to drive up owner occupancy rates at Club Wyndham resorts as opposed to delivering meaningful and enjoyable vacation experiences to owners, renters and exchangers wherever they stay.  That latter one seems more like what it should be - otherwise they should divest RCI, Registry Collection, and Extra Holidays.  I'm also not all that convinced that it's actionable to any great extent.  The email seemed to draw the conclusion that their prioritizing owner reservations is what drove up owner occupancy rates, which might be believable if that was all that was going on.  IIRC, though, there have been a number of restrictions on travel that could be preventing owners from going elsewhere.  I could be mistaken, but would guess that the inability to go to a lot of Caribbean and Mexican resorts led to a lot of owners not exchanging in Wyndham and in a lot of other mini-systems.  It will be interesting to see if the owner occupancy rates continue to rise with the greater restrictions on guest reservations and rentals they're instituting next year - it will also be interesting to see if the top line numbers for owners and points owned are at all effected by the greater restrictions on use of the ownership (which can include rentals).

I think there's a fairly rational basis for the decisions they made on restricting the VIP benefits.  The way things worked before didn't seem to align the incentives well with the desired behaviors of the consumers when it comes down to it.  We'll see whether the guest restrictions continue to provide the benefits Wyndham seems to be touting them as providing, particularly with the issues they seem to have with setting the rules up for their implementation clearly enough for their IT systems and their customer service folks to get them done right.


----------



## Jethro37

I'd like to know what the mix is by the following classifications.

Owner occupancy
Owner reserved guests
Discovery Package users
RCI guests
3rd party provider bookings(Extra Holiday, etc..)
Resort sales direct
Resort Sales for promotions (pitching wyndham)

I hypothesize total percentage of the first two on that list may be a good bit smaller than we think,  but that's what they're tinkering with to make more owners happy.

Major public relations hit not withstanding, that would probably be a disaster to release from a competitive business standpoint.  I'm sure lifting the curtain on what happens and revealing business operations/ trade secrets isn't going to happen.

Maybe we could just ask the %occupancy of owners and owners guest and leave it at that.


----------



## CO skier

Jethro37 said:


> Maybe we could just ask the %occupancy of owners and owners guest and leave it at that.


Or maybe ask for

% occupancy owners 2019 vs. 2021
% occupancy owner guests 2019 vs. 2021
% all other guests 2019 vs. 2021

for Bonnet Creek July 4th and Park City Labor Day, at a minimum, for examples.

% all other in the aggregate would not reveal any "trade secrets" and likely be less than 10% (maybe less than half that).  That statistic would kill another conspiracy theory.


----------



## Jethro37

CO skier said:


> Or maybe ask for
> 
> % occupancy owners 2019 vs. 2021
> % occupancy owner guests 2019 vs. 2021
> % all other guests 2019 vs. 2021
> 
> for Bonnet Creek July 4th and Park City Labor Day, at a minimum, for examples.
> 
> % all other in the aggregate would not reveal any "trade secrets" and likely be less than 10% (maybe less than half that).  That statistic would kill another conspiracy theory.



I like the idea of dispelling the myth if it is one.   For truly prime weeks it would make sense to keep most all inventory available to owners since it should all get booked.  

On the other hand, I'd think they would want some inventory available to market to non-owners  that only vacation during peak dates.  

I'm a flexible value shopper myself so would rather they leave plenty of inventory available for the less expensive spring and fall periods.

This may have already been mentioned in this thread.  Could the primary reason for cutting back on points being rented be to make that a less viable option and encourage non-owners to buy into the system?


----------



## Sandi Bo

Thanks for putting a list together @Jethro37   There are so many variables, it would take a consider level of detail to vet anything meaningful from the data (even if Wyndham were to provide it).   Then you'd want to know date ranges - were they holiday, were they blacked out, etc.  Was Wyndham playing other games with inventory at that time or was there maintenance at that time?  So many variables.  Maybe it's just understanding that all those things could be going on. In which case, I like your list, but would be interested in seeing a breakdown of EH versus other 3rd party reservations (and again have no expectation Wyndham would provide that). 

Maybe just begs the question that Wyndham shouldn't be throwing around numbers to daze and dazzle those that like to believe this kind of stuff. There was a lot of positive responses (on FB) to the numbers - thanks Wyndham, about time Wyndham, etc. And that's really what Wyndham is after, right, doesn't really matter if the numbers can be explained or have any basis.

And some of us don't get any of these emails (this one, nor the owner priority black out date stuff), an ongoing problem.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Eric B said:


> My thoughts on the subject of metrics are that they are only worthwhile if they are meaningful, measurable, and actionable.  I don't think the metric of owner occupation percentage changes meets any other than the measurable, and as reported by Wyndham that doesn't really seem to fit either since it's not well explained.  I read the email with a great deal of skepticism because it seems like a lot of spin and makes a lot of assumptions that don't seem really well supported.
> 
> One metric that they don't seem to be touting is the change in the number of owners and the number of points owned.  IIRC, there was a slide that flashed up briefly in the annual meeting showing a decline in both of those numbers.  If I were working in the C suite at Wyndham, that would be one of the things I would look at as a metric and I sure wouldn't be bragging about it if they are both declining.  I have a hunch that the numbers won't be going in a great direction for them this year, either - hence the spin.
> 
> Looking at the owner occupancy rate from the perspective of whether it's meaningful gives me some pause.  I don't believe that Wyndham's Mission or Vision are to drive up owner occupancy rates at Club Wyndham resorts as opposed to delivering meaningful and enjoyable vacation experiences to owners, renters and exchangers wherever they stay.  That latter one seems more like what it should be - otherwise they should divest RCI, Registry Collection, and Extra Holidays.  I'm also not all that convinced that it's actionable to any great extent.  The email seemed to draw the conclusion that their prioritizing owner reservations is what drove up owner occupancy rates, which might be believable if that was all that was going on.  IIRC, though, there have been a number of restrictions on travel that could be preventing owners from going elsewhere.  I could be mistaken, but would guess that the inability to go to a lot of Caribbean and Mexican resorts led to a lot of owners not exchanging in Wyndham and in a lot of other mini-systems.  It will be interesting to see if the owner occupancy rates continue to rise with the greater restrictions on guest reservations and rentals they're instituting next year - it will also be interesting to see if the top line numbers for owners and points owned are at all effected by the greater restrictions on use of the ownership (which can include rentals).
> 
> I think there's a fairly rational basis for the decisions they made on restricting the VIP benefits.  The way things worked before didn't seem to align the incentives well with the desired behaviors of the consumers when it comes down to it.  We'll see whether the guest restrictions continue to provide the benefits Wyndham seems to be touting them as providing, particularly with the issues they seem to have with setting the rules up for their implementation clearly enough for their IT systems and their customer service folks to get them done right.


I am retired now, but spent about 1/2 my career in development and 1/2 my career in QA.  At one time we were bought out by a foreign group that was insanely obsessed with metrics. I became known as the metrics queen. The key to making people happy was determining what they wanted. The QA heads wanted less time in test, of course the dev heads wanted less time in dev. Notoriously, dev would hand over code to test on Friday afternoons. QA wouldn't accept the code until Monday.  2 dead days no-one wanted on their clock. No checks or balances. It was comical, but made everyone happy (well happier).  People can really worry about stuff that is not important. That was my take on the metrics. Figure out what they wanted, be able to substantiate what we were claiming, don't spend a lot of time doing this, and then focus on getting the real work done. 

So that's how I feel about metrics


----------



## wed100105

I thought I was in the right, and then had a mild panic moment this morning because I don’t trust Wyndham.

Last May I booked a week at Royal Vista for Christmas. Our flight plans have changed from our original guess and now there is no availability. I rented out my Royal Vista reservation to another owner (not that it matters since I had to use a guest confirmation). I haven’t used my two guest confirmations during owner priority time since the policy began. I used a ton of guest confirmations at Glacier Canyon this year, but not during 4th of July or Labor Day. This morning I was panicking that there was some reservation that’s dates fell during these new owner times that I had on the reservations before all of this went into effect. If Wyndham is going to do this they should at least have to have the website working to confirm or deny the guest confirmation. This is ridiculous.

Meanwhile, I’m now trying to only book reservations for the Dells that I can overlap with personal reservations to avoid the guest confirmation policy changes since Glacier  Canyon is blocked out all holiday weekends and summer. Do nights have to overlap or does checking out on Monday (or any day of the week) and a new reservation starting on Monday work?


----------



## Sandi Bo

wed100105 said:


> I thought I was in the right, and then had a mild panic moment this morning because I don’t trust Wyndham.
> 
> Last May I booked a week at Royal Vista for Christmas. Our flight plans have changed from our original guess and now there is no availability. I rented out my Royal Vista reservation to another owner (not that it matters since I had to use a guest confirmation). I haven’t used my two guest confirmations during owner priority time since the policy began. I used a ton of guest confirmations at Glacier Canyon this year, but not during 4th of July or Labor Day. This morning I was panicking that there was some reservation that’s dates fell during these new owner times that I had on the reservations before all of this went into effect. If Wyndham is going to do this they should at least have to have the website working to confirm or deny the guest confirmation. This is ridiculous.
> 
> Meanwhile, I’m now trying to only book reservations for the Dells that I can overlap with personal reservations to avoid the guest confirmation policy changes since Glacier  Canyon is blocked out all holiday weekends and summer. Do nights have to overlap or does checking out on Monday (or any day of the week) and a new reservation starting on Monday work?


I agree. Sure seems like we ought to have a way to check and see if we've (intentionally or accidentally) used our 2 exceptions. I have not called for some time, but last I did, I got now warm fuzzies that the VC's could really tell. There should be a place to look and see (online) - perhaps on the points summary screen.  

I do not think checking out the same day as a new reservation starts is considered overlapping. That's just my personal opinion. It doesn't when they are checking for the 10 reservation limit, I wouldn't expect it to count in these owner priority scenarios, either.

Isn't everyday a mild panic moment these days with Wyndham? I do believe that's the plan. They really don't want to make any of this easy, not even for those of us trying to follow the rules.


----------



## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> I agree. Sure seems like we ought to have a way to check and see if we've (intentionally or accidentally) used our 2 exceptions. I have not called for some time, but last I did, I got now warm fuzzies that the VC's could really tell. There should be a place to look and see (online) - perhaps on the points summary screen.
> 
> *I do not think checking out the same day as a new reservation starts is considered overlapping.* That's just my personal opinion. It doesn't when they are checking for the 10 reservation limit, I wouldn't expect it to count in these owner priority scenarios, either.
> 
> Isn't everyday a mild panic moment these days with Wyndham? I do believe that's the plan. They really don't want to make any of this easy, not even for those of us trying to follow the rules.



There's no overlap when that happens.  Similarly, when a weekend is restricted, you can book a Sunday PM check-in with a Friday AM check-out without violatiing the owners only restriction.

I'm no longer panicky after the most recent change.  Just waiting for the next one to come crashing in.


----------



## jd5504

chapjim said:


> There's no overlap when that happens.  Similarly, when a weekend is restricted, you can book a Sunday PM check-in with a Friday AM check-out without violatiing the owners only restriction.
> 
> I'm no longer panicky after the most recent change.  Just waiting for the next one to come crashing in.


Jim,
I find the new Owner Priority policy disingenuous on the part of Wyndham. I have Presidential contracts in NYC which I would have never bought (too many points) but was always told I could subsidize MF's through renting. I use to get 45 Guest passes a year. Now it seems whether you bought on ebay or through the company you get the same guest passes. I use some of my points to recoup MF's and some for relatives to stay which will no longer happen.


----------



## rickandcindy23

jd5504 said:


> Jim,
> I find the new Owner Priority policy disingenuous on the part of Wyndham. I have Presidential contracts in NYC which I would have never bought (too many points) but was always told I could subsidize MF's through renting. I use to get 45 Guest passes a year. Now it seems whether you bought on ebay or through the company you get the same guest passes. I use some of my points to recoup MF's and some for relatives to stay which will no longer happen.


That sales pitch that you can rent what you don't use, that entire pitch just makes me angry all over again.  I hope they drop that line from the sales' table because it's nothing but lies.


----------



## chapjim

rickandcindy23 said:


> That sales pitch that you can rent what you don't use, that entire pitch just makes me angry all over again.  I hope they drop that line from the sales' table because it's nothing but lies.



Oh, that!  We meant renting through Extra Holidays!!  You thought we meant renting via ebay and RedWeek.com?  Gee, we're really sorry you misunderstood us.


----------



## paxsarah

jd5504 said:


> Now it seems whether you bought on ebay or through the company you get the same guest passes.


If you bought through eBay you get 2 guest certificates per year. It is true that if you bought through Wyndham but are not VIP you get the same 2. All VIP levels receive more.


----------



## paxsarah

I just received a "Wyndham Insider" email that indicated there are new owner priority dates. They go through Christmas 2023, and it looks like the effective date on newly added ones is April 15th. There are also three "full year" resorts!


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I just received a "Wyndham Insider" email that indicated there are new owner priority dates. They go through Christmas 2023, and it looks like the effective date on newly added ones is April 15th. There are also three "full year" resorts!



Good info - thanks for the heads up. Looks like Wyndham continues to expand the concept as expected to continue to discourage rentals. 

For ease of reference - here’s the three resorts that are blocked out for all of 2023:







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpeacock

What the heck does this sentence mean? " You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations per year during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests.
It's within the Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations explanation. 

Shouldn't the sentence read something like this? "You can travel with your guests to these Resorts during the dates listed below with no restrictions on your allocated guest reservations. If you are not traveling with your guests during the dates below you may use, for their reservation, up to two guest reservations per year.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk


----------



## Pathways

HitchHiker71 said:


> Good info - thanks for the heads up. Looks like Wyndham continues to expand the concept as expected to continue to discourage rentals.
> 
> For ease of reference - here’s the three resorts that are blocked out for all of 2023:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The thing I hate is how difficult/time-consuming it is to verify if a resort is affected.

I usually do not search for---gee, I think I will travel on presidents day 2023, which resort is affected.  (which also could be affected by 'winter', ski', or something else, like 'all of 2023' 

Even after searching through all that, you still wonder if you missed something.

Instead, I want to travel to....say Austin. I should be able to click on Austin and get ALL the dates COMPLETE that that resort is restricted.

If in fact that is available now, I am not seeing it.


----------



## r4rab

Pathways said:


> The thing I hate is how difficult/time-consuming it is to verify if a resort is affected.
> 
> I usually do not search for---gee, I think I will travel on presidents day 2023, which resort is affected.  (which also could be affected by 'winter', ski', or something else, like 'all of 2023'
> 
> Even after searching through all that, you still wonder if you missed something.
> 
> Instead, I want to travel to....say Austin. I should be able to click on Austin and get ALL the dates COMPLETE that that resort is restricted.
> 
> If in fact that is available now, I am not seeing it.



If you are the one travelling why do you care about the priority dates? I only check them if I think would need more reservations than owners on our account or if I were going to rent (which I haven't done).


----------



## Pathways

r4rab said:


> If you are the one travelling why do you care about the priority dates? I only check them if I think would need more reservations than owners on our account or if I were going to rent (which I haven't done).



Obviously, b/c I'm not always the one traveling.  (sorry if you took my working that literal)

When my kids, ( a couple who are not on the account b/c Wyndham limits the max number), want to travel I am usually the one checking for availability.

As you probably noted, I'm not complaining about the policy, I'm suggesting an easier way to verify and eliminate issues.  (Again, unless HitchHiker71 or someone else tells me an easy way I am missing)


----------



## scootr5

rpeacock said:


> What the heck does this sentence mean? " You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations per year during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests.
> It's within the Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations explanation.
> 
> Shouldn't the sentence read something like this? "You can travel with your guests to these Resorts during the dates listed below with no restrictions on your allocated guest reservations. If you are not traveling with your guests during the dates below you may use, for their reservation, up to two guest reservations per year.



Unless I’m mistaken, you can not use purchased guest certificates when not traveling with them. They can only be the two included for “free“ each year.


----------



## Pathways

scootr5 said:


> Unless I’m mistaken, you can not use purchased guest certificates when not traveling with them. They can only be the two included for “free“ each year.


Purchased or free, doesn't matter, none of this refers to the cost.  

You are now allowed two guest certificates a year for use at a resort during that resorts *r*_*estricted *_time period without the owner being present. During the dates with no restrictions, there is no limit on guest certificates.

These restrictions don't apply when others check in during the time the owner is present in a different unit.

Whether you pay for the guest certificate simply depends on your status.


----------



## jhoug

Why do they have to specify the Sundance Film festival dates Jan 2023 at Park City when they've already blocked out the Ski Season Jan-Mar 2023 at Park City?


----------



## Eric B

jhoug said:


> Why do they have to specify the Sundance Film festival dates Jan 2023 at Park City when they've already blocked out the Ski Season Jan-Mar 2023 at Park City?



Because they really, really mean it.


----------



## scootr5

Pathways said:


> Whether you pay for the guest certificate simply depends on your status.



Then something has apparently changed sine the June 2021 email sent out that stated "For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation *from your annual allotment*."


----------



## Eric B

scootr5 said:


> Then something has apparently changed sine the June 2021 email sent out that stated "For reservations at identified resorts during the select travel periods when you are not traveling with your guests, up to two times a year, you can use a Guest Confirmation *from your annual allotment*."



The current wording, copied below, doesn't use the limitation of "from your annual allotment" and that email was never really made a part of the guidelines but instead established as a temporary policy.

"You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use *two guest confirmations per year* during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests. Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates)."

As usual, they did a poor job of wording the "policy" because it isn't clear whether it's a calendar year or a use year limitation.  They also don't do a great job of empowering anyone to make a decision on how it should be applied in individual cases and informing potentially effected owners of how to find out for sure what their rights are. 

One other thought is that I have yet to rent out any bookings in any of the peak travel periods, but one thing that strikes me is someone that wants to rent out Clearwater in 2023 will have less competition and be able to charge more.  It isn't obvious whether there would be unintended consequences driving multiple small renters to book and rent out two desirable periods there rather than the boogeymen megarenters being limited to just two and whether the net effect on timeshare owner availability will match what they are saying it will.  If you follow the money as an incentive to renting, I wouldn't be surprised to see more renting going on there than there was before.  There's definitely a benefit that could be had in establishing real, transparent, and fixed policies for usage that apply to everyone.


----------



## paxsarah

Even if it were "from your annual allotment," given the way Wyndham shifted away from points buckets (where it mattered which points were used "first") to a more straightforward accounting of how many points are allocated to each benefit and how many points have been used for each benefit regardless of order of booking, it wouldn't make much sense for it to matter whether you used your restriction-free guest reservations as one of your first two uses per year (if for example you're a non-VIP who received two for free), or later in the year. My guess is that it made sense to them that the smallest potential allotment of guest confirmations (2) was a reasonable number to allow for unaccompanied guests during restriction periods, and that what they probably meant was "as part of your annual allotment" and not "must be the first two used in a year."



Eric B said:


> As usual, they did a poor job of wording the "policy" because it isn't clear whether it's a calendar year or a use year limitation.


I agree that they simply should spell it out, but it also seems like the default assumption would be calendar year, because guest certificates are already allocated per calendar year, not use year.


----------



## Wyndhamgirl

jwalk03 said:


> How in the world does Clearwater not make this list, when its the hardest resort in the whole system to book?


I saw on the 2023 list Clearwater is listed for the entire year!


----------



## Lisa P

Wyndhamgirl said:


> I saw on the 2023 list Clearwater is listed for the entire year!


Now that makes sense! It's pretty challenging to book year-round, especially weekends and full weeks.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Lisa P said:


> Now that makes sense! It's pretty challenging to book year-round, especially weekends and full weeks.


I have to ask though, does it really?

There are very few rooms and it's really expensive, even with our 60% discount if we can catch a cancellation. I don't think it's a megarenters dream. Would be interesting to see statistics on how many guest confirmations versus owner checkins there are. 

But makes owners happy to see the coveted Clearwater on the list.


----------



## siesta

I’ve been an owner for 12+ years. I am happy with this change and hope it remains for the foreseeable future. My guests (family and friends) usually travel with me, and if I gift weeks when I’m not going on the trip it’s not more than twice a year. I’ve never rented out a week. Now I don’t have to compete with megarenters for in demand times/locations.


----------



## CO skier

siesta said:


> I’ve been an owner for 12+ years. I am happy with this change and hope it remains for the foreseeable future. My guests (family and friends) usually travel with me, and if I gift weeks when I’m not going on the trip it’s not more than twice a year. I’ve never rented out a week. Now I don’t have to compete with megarenters for in demand times/locations.


The "it's not us; Wyndham is the problem" renters in this Wyndham *Vacation* Forum are not going to like reading that.


----------



## Melder

I booked two reservations for the same dates at Bonnet Creek.  One for our family and the other for brothers family.  I'm confused by the statements on the website.  Which is it?  Am I safe since I'm traveling with my guests?  Or am I at risk since I booked after October 20?

_*You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below* and may use two guest confirmations per year during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests. Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates).

*If you book a guest reservation after the dates listed below, you will be notified of the reservation cancellation via email.* 

The following resorts and peak travel time periods will have limited access by guests for reservations made after *October 20, 2021*:_


----------



## rickandcindy23

Put your wife's name on one, your name on the other, and there will be no issue with guests.


----------



## Mongoose

Melder said:


> *You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below* _and may use two guest confirmations per year during the restricted dates when not travelling with your guests. _*Any guest reservations made after the dates listed below at the following resorts during the select peak travel periods will be subject to cancellation (including guests added to an existing reservation after those dates).*


Very poorly worded.  I take it being you you can use the GC if you are present.  But not if you are not present.  To be safe, you should call.


----------



## chapjim

Mongoose said:


> Very poorly worded.  I take it being you you can use the GC if you are present.  But not if you are not present.  *To be safe, you should call. *



To be safe, you should call.  (And hope whomever you speak to has a clue.)


----------



## Mongoose

chapjim said:


> To be safe, you should call.  (And hope whomever you speak to has a clue.)


Not to mention wait on hold for a couple of hours.


----------



## chapjim

Mongoose said:


> Not to mention wait on hold for a couple of hours.



That, too!  Although truthfully, my hold times have been way less than that.  I don't know if calling in on the PresRes line makes a difference.  It might.


----------



## Melder

rickandcindy23 said:


> Put your wife's name on one, your name on the other, and there will be no issue with guests.



Sound advise.  Thank you.  I trust fellow TUGers over Wyndham Reps.  I didn't want to wait on hold in hopes of receiving the "correct" answer.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Just a quick update that is worth sharing, note the change to the paragraph on the owner priority page as of today, Wyndham is now officially calling the two GCs that you're entitled to use without having an  an overlapping owner based reservation "Guest Allowances."  





Also, please note the list of resorts that are completely blocked out for all of 2023 has expanded:


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> Just a quick update that is worth sharing, note the change to the paragraph on the owner priority page as of today, Wyndham is now officially calling the two GCs that you're entitled to use without having an  an overlapping owner based reservation "Guest Allowances."
> 
> View attachment 66521
> 
> Also, please note the list of resorts that are completely blocked out for all of 2023 has expanded:
> 
> View attachment 66522


Thanks for pointing that out. I am a fan of consistent (and meaningful) terminology. Hopefully this will lessen some confusion around this.  And superhopefully - maybe someday we'll be able to see the number of guest allowances we have used or have left.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> Thanks for pointing that out. I am a fan of consistent (and meaningful) terminology. Hopefully this will lessen some confusion around this. And superhopefully - maybe someday we'll be able to see the number of guest allowances we have used or have left.



I’m working with Wyndham to get the Guest Allowances published to the Owner Dashboard. Don’t have any ETA yet but it’s on the drawing board so to speak. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheHolleys87

HitchHiker71 said:


> Also, please note the list of resorts that are completely blocked out for all of 2023 has expanded:


We own two deeded weeks at Kona Coast (purchased by my parents when it was Shell) that have never been converted to Wyndham, although Wyndham now manages the resort and the personnel that process my reservation requests have wyn.com email addresses.  Since our weeks are deeded, Wyndham can't impose any restrictions on our guest usage on those weeks, can they?


----------



## Jan M.

TheHolleys87 said:


> We own two deeded weeks at Kona Coast (purchased by my parents when it was Shell) that have never been converted to Wyndham, although Wyndham now manages the resort and the personnel that process my reservation requests have wyn.com email addresses.  Since our weeks are deeded, Wyndham can't impose any restrictions on our guest usage on those weeks, can they?



Fixed weeks are a different kettle of fish as the saying goes. It's my understanding that the owner calls the resort to say who will be checking in for their fixed weeks if it's someone other than themselves. They don't need or use a guest confirmation with those weeks.


----------



## TheHolleys87

Jan M. said:


> Fixed weeks are a different kettle of fish as the saying goes. It's my understanding that the owner calls the resort to say who will be checking in for their fixed weeks if it's someone other than themselves. They don't need or use a guest confirmation with those weeks.


Yes, that’s exactly right - I book our weeks via email 24 months in advance, then if we’re not using them, I email to change the name of the person checking in. Thanks for the reassurance that I don’t need to worry about Wyndham’s restrictions — for the first time, we rented out one of our 2023 weeks!


----------

