# I had enough. Help me get out of this MVC nightmare.



## Frisbeeace (Nov 1, 2018)

I bought my first week in 1993. The main sales pitch from our local MVC reps was the ability to trade for Marriott Rewards Points which would allow foreign owners like me to travel all around the world. At first the 110,000 points per week could be converted in 7 nights and very attractive travel packages. Now, after 25 years and an endless devaluation process, I still get the same amount of points but I can barely get 2 nights at a nice hotel. The travel packages were aniquilated in August but surprisingly I don't read too many complains about this. The program was good for the first 10 years but became a rip-off in the last 10. How can I still have the same convertion rate to MRP after 25 years if the value of my nights went up both in price and points 3x? This shouldn't be legal... Anyways, question is, how is the best way to get rid of my weeks, fast?


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## TravelTime (Nov 1, 2018)

Go on TUG and give it away for $1.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 1, 2018)

or contact Marriott to see if they will broker a resale or take it back.  https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/exit/
It depends on what you own. Many weeks have resale value less than $500 so it is easier to give away than try to sell.


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## klpca (Nov 1, 2018)

The Marriott brokered resale mentioned above may be your best deal. Agree that Marriott has really devalued some of the original perks.


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## pedro47 (Nov 2, 2018)

I agree, I would reach out to the Marriott brokered resale department. I can remember over twenty-five years ago m/f were under $300 per year.  Now it is over $1300 for the same resort.
Good Luck.


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## Dean (Nov 2, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I bought my first week in 1993. The main sales pitch from our local MVC reps was the ability to trade for Marriott Rewards Points which would allow foreign owners like me to travel all around the world. At first the 110,000 points per week could be converted in 7 nights and very attractive travel packages. Now, after 25 years and an endless devaluation process, I still get the same amount of points but I can barely get 2 nights at a nice hotel. The travel packages were aniquilated in August but surprisingly I don't read too many complains about this. The program was good for the first 10 years but became a rip-off in the last 10. How can I still have the same convertion rate to MRP after 25 years if the value of my nights went up both in price and points 3x? This shouldn't be legal... Anyways, question is, how is the best way to get rid of my weeks, fast?


What/where do you own?  Maybe it has real value.  It sounds like you bought a timeshare just to use for the perks, perks that are not contractual and not guaranteed.  You should have known this was a risk going in.  They could cancel the entire program if they wanted.  I wonder if there are other ways you could use it that would have more value to you like exchanges or whether you could enroll for free and use the destination club points instead.


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## catharsis (Nov 2, 2018)

Dean said:


> you could enroll for free and use the destination club points instead.



If your MFs are low enough this is potentially the best approach by far.

DC points are not subject to inflation in the same way as Marriott Rewards points so you may get significantly more value out of your ownership by enrolling 

In addition it is reasonably easy to get $.60 or more per point per year by renting your points using vacationpointexchange.com (a site run by a TUGGER) or otherwise.

If your MFs are at a level where that is profitable for you then you will at least have a small annual income coming back from your initial 'investment' rather than an annual expense and a constant headache.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 2, 2018)

Another quick alternative for disposing of your weeks would be to place it on eBay for a 3 or 7 day auction and sell it to the highest bidder.


.


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## alwysonvac (Nov 2, 2018)

Hmmm..You seem to start a new thread every few years. Are you still trying to sell your Sabal Palms weeks?

Time to leave Marriott - Any tips to sell? (2010) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/time-to-leave-marriott-any-tips-to-sell.121183

Very dissatisfied owner. How do I get rid of my weeks? (2014) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ed-owner-how-do-i-get-rid-of-my-weeks.209663/

Best way to getting rid of my Sabal Palms week (2015) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/best-way-to-getting-rid-of-my-sabal-palms-weeks.231657/


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## TravelTime (Nov 2, 2018)

pedro47 said:


> I agree, I would reach out to the Marriott brokered resale department. I can remember over twenty-five years ago m/f were under $300 per year.  Now it is over $1300 for the same resort.
> Good Luck.



We can’t compare to the past. Inflation is normal. It hurts when you are on the paying end and is sweet when you are on the receiving end. Many of us are kicking ourselves for not having bought our homes in California 25 years ago but now is as good a time as any to be happy!


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## BocaBoy (Nov 2, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> We can’t compare to the past. Inflation is normal. I


It is NOT normal over the past 10 years to have the level of inflation that we have seen in MVCI maintenance fees.  And the deflation in the value of a MR point has also SIGNIFICANTLY exceeded what would be expected based on the economy's the level of inflation.


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## TravelTime (Nov 2, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> It is NOT normal over the past 10 years to have the level of inflation that we have seen in MVCI maintenance fees.  And the deflation in the value of a MR point has also SIGNIFICANTLY exceeded what would be expected based on the economy's the level of inflation.



What has it been over the past 10 years? The minimal data posted for the past 25 years seemed normal to me.


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## Pamplemousse (Nov 2, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I bought my first week in 1993. The main sales pitch from our local MVC reps was the ability to trade for Marriott Rewards Points which would allow foreign owners like me to travel all around the world. At first the 110,000 points per week could be converted in 7 nights and very attractive travel packages. Now, after 25 years and an endless devaluation process, I still get the same amount of points but I can barely get 2 nights at a nice hotel. The travel packages were aniquilated in August but surprisingly I don't read too many complains about this. The program was good for the first 10 years but became a rip-off in the last 10. How can I still have the same convertion rate to MRP after 25 years if the value of my nights went up both in price and points 3x? This shouldn't be legal... Anyways, question is, how is the best way to get rid of my weeks, fast?



Why don’t you try trading on interval? That will get you 7 nights at a resort similar to what you own.
Or go ahead and enroll in the destination club if you can do that for free- it will give you an II account as part of your dues and allow you to book points or exchange a week.
Times change- sometimes you have to change with them and find a new way.
Good luck.


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## Panina (Nov 2, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I bought my first week in 1993. The main sales pitch from our local MVC reps was the ability to trade for Marriott Rewards Points which would allow foreign owners like me to travel all around the world. At first the 110,000 points per week could be converted in 7 nights and very attractive travel packages. Now, after 25 years and an endless devaluation process, I still get the same amount of points but I can barely get 2 nights at a nice hotel. The travel packages were aniquilated in August but surprisingly I don't read too many complains about this. The program was good for the first 10 years but became a rip-off in the last 10. How can I still have the same convertion rate to MRP after 25 years if the value of my nights went up both in price and points 3x? This shouldn't be legal... Anyways, question is, how is the best way to get rid of my weeks, fast?


Have you tried trading on II?  That might give you a great trade you are happy with.  

I agree with others that you should see if Marriott wants it to sell.

Ultimately if neither works and it really doesn’t work for you it is time to find it a new home.  Research if it has any value and if it doesn’t just give it away.  I have given away many timeshares to other tuggers here on Tug in the Bargain section when they no longer worked for me and then got others that did.


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## Panina (Nov 2, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Hmmm..You seem to start a new thread every few years. Are you still trying to sell your Sabal Palms weeks?
> 
> Time to leave Marriott - Any tips to sell? (2010) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/time-to-leave-marriott-any-tips-to-sell.121183
> 
> ...



Sometimes one is just overwhelmed with disposing a timeshare that even if they don’t want it they stop in their tracks.

I actually got a great one here on tug from someone for years who posted about not wanting it.  It was so great I thought when I said yes I want it, it wouldn’t happen. It did, both of us are happy.


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## SeaDoc (Nov 3, 2018)

As stated previously, the 110K Marriott Reward Points have indeed lost their potency, due to Marriott International, NOT Marriott Vacation Club.  I never turn my weeks into MRP any longer due to this declining value.  However, the destination points that my weeks garner, hold their value, and when compared to the maintenance fees I pay on these points, I come out 3-5 times ahead when comparing with rental rates vs MF cost of the points.  Recognize that there is still enormous value, if you work this program, the right way, NOT the wrong way.


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## scpoidog (Nov 3, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Hmmm..You seem to start a new thread every few years. Are you still trying to sell your Sabal Palms weeks?
> 
> Time to leave Marriott - Any tips to sell? (2010) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/time-to-leave-marriott-any-tips-to-sell.121183
> 
> ...



LOL.  That was fantastic.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 3, 2018)

You should find a friend or relative, add them to the deed with you via a simple process you can do through Legal Timeshare Transfers, and then take yourselves off of the deed later on.  That should keep the week for enrollment in the Destination Club.  That is how I would do it, and I truly believe it would work.  I am about 95% sure.


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## jeepie (Nov 3, 2018)

It appears to me that the OP lives in Argentina. The MR devaluations seem to pale in comparison to the increase in the cost of living. I imagine everyday life there must be quite the challenge. Best of luck!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nflation-rate-hits-highest-level-of-macri-era


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Hmmm..You seem to start a new thread every few years. Are you still trying to sell your Sabal Palms weeks?
> 
> Time to leave Marriott - Any tips to sell? (2010) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/time-to-leave-marriott-any-tips-to-sell.121183
> 
> ...



Yes, you´re right. Same weeks and 10 years dissatisfied with Marriott but I managed to break even using the travel packages. Marriott offered me $4,000 per week a couple of years ago with lots of paperwork and heavily taxed, so I decided to wait just a bit more. Now with further devaluations, I just want out.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

jeepie said:


> It appears to me that the OP lives in Argentina. The MR devaluations seem to pale in comparison to the increase in the cost of living. I imagine everyday life there must be quite the challenge. Best of luck!
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nflation-rate-hits-highest-level-of-macri-era



Yes, I live in Argentina but travel extensively. The MF are a small fortune around here after this year's devaluation but that's not the problem.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

Dean said:


> What/where do you own?  Maybe it has real value.  It sounds like you bought a timeshare just to use for the perks, perks that are not contractual and not guaranteed.  You should have known this was a risk going in.  They could cancel the entire program if they wanted.  I wonder if there are other ways you could use it that would have more value to you like exchanges or whether you could enroll for free and use the destination club points instead.



I own Sabal Palms red weeks. I am enrolled in Destination Points but Orlando weeks were valued a the very low tier and yield just a bunch of points which barely compensate the MFs. Regarding the perks, Marriott used them as their main selling point at foreign markets where owners would not occupate their properties and had trouble to rent them due to fiscal restrictions. The ability to trade weeks for Marriott Reward Points was THE reason why most people bought weeks in this region.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> We can’t compare to the past. Inflation is normal. It hurts when you are on the paying end and is sweet when you are on the receiving end. Many of us are kicking ourselves for not having bought our homes in California 25 years ago but now is as good a time as any to be happy!



Allow me to respectfully disagree. Inflation (and believe me that sadly we are experts in Argentina) affects every price in the economy both your income and your expenses. So it makes absolutely no sense that Marriott "buys" my weeks at 1993 prices while I "buy" their rooms/travel packages/else at 2018 prices. Actually Marriott sells the nights I trade in at 3x the old '93 price but they didn't adjust the exchange rate into MRP accordingly. I wish I could buy any product in the economy at 25 years old prices. Marriott does. We are reaching the point that for my 7 nights 2-bedroom villa peak season I will only get 1 night at a category 9 hotel, same season.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

catharsis said:


> If your MFs are low enough this is potentially the best approach by far.
> 
> DC points are not subject to inflation in the same way as Marriott Rewards points so you may get significantly more value out of your ownership by enrolling
> 
> ...



Thank you for your suggestion. I will check into that. I'm not converting into Destination Points but now with the Travel Packages much more expensive, I might.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

Pamplemousse said:


> Why don’t you try trading on interval? That will get you 7 nights at a resort similar to what you own.
> Or go ahead and enroll in the destination club if you can do that for free- it will give you an II account as part of your dues and allow you to book points or exchange a week.
> Times change- sometimes you have to change with them and find a new way.
> Good luck.



I have deposited a New Year's Eve week in II but whenever I ask for anything similar, there is no availability. It looks like I deposited a jewel and all I can obtain is not even comparable either low season or small studios units.


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## Frisbeeace (Nov 5, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> As stated previously, the 110K Marriott Reward Points have indeed lost their potency, due to Marriott International, NOT Marriott Vacation Club.  I never turn my weeks into MRP any longer due to this declining value.  However, the destination points that my weeks garner, hold their value, and when compared to the maintenance fees I pay on these points, I come out 3-5 times ahead when comparing with rental rates vs MF cost of the points.  Recognize that there is still enormous value, if you work this program, the right way, NOT the wrong way.



Thank you. It looks I´m missing something by not using Destination Points. When Marriott launched the program I was very dissappointed (even more that I already was) because I needed to turn in 2-3 weeks to get enough points for a week at the beach or snow while it was 1:1 before that. I need to pay a look at the program.


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## TravelTime (Nov 5, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> Allow me to respectfully disagree. Inflation (and believe me that sadly we are experts in Argentina) affects every price in the economy both your income and your expenses. So it makes absolutely no sense that Marriott "buys" my weeks at 1993 prices while I "buy" their rooms/travel packages/else at 2018 prices. Actually Marriott sells the nights I trade in at 3x the old '93 price but they didn't adjust the exchange rate into MRP accordingly. I wish I could buy any product in the economy at 25 years old prices. Marriott does. We are reaching the point that for my 7 nights 2-bedroom villa peak season I will only get 1 night at a category 9 hotel, same season.



Yes the devaluation of MR points is terrible. I did not mean to say that it is what we want or like. This affects me and most of us on TUG too. None of us are happy. Marriott's situation with regard to MR points is a bit different than the traditional concept of inflation. I suspect Marriott does not want timeshare owners getting a good exchange from timeshares to hotel rooms and this might be their way of discouraging it.


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## Pamplemousse (Nov 5, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I have deposited a New Year's Eve week in II but whenever I ask for anything similar, there is no availability. It looks like I deposited a jewel and all I can obtain is not even comparable either low season or small studios units.



I’m not sure how familiar you are with II so I’m not really sure what to say other than it’s my experience that if I request something similar in rating, size and TDI to my deposit several months in advance I get what I ask for- especially if it is a Marriott to Marriott with the brand priority.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 5, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I have deposited a New Year's Eve week in II but whenever I ask for anything similar, there is no availability. It looks like I deposited a jewel and all I can obtain is not even comparable either low season or small studios units.



I'm not a big fan of II either, but it sounds like you may just be depositing a week and then looking online or calling for what is available at any given point in time. By doing that you are only seeing leftover inventory that was not matched to an ongoing search. If you want to get your best value for an II deposit, the best way is to start an ongoing search (OGS) for what you are looking for. An OGS has it's own downsides - mainly the uncertainty and waiting for something to match - but it is a way to get better value from II.


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## Dean (Nov 5, 2018)

Frisbeeace said:


> I own Sabal Palms red weeks. I am enrolled in Destination Points but Orlando weeks were valued a the very low tier and yield just a bunch of points which barely compensate the MFs. Regarding the perks, Marriott used them as their main selling point at foreign markets where owners would not occupate their properties and had trouble to rent them due to fiscal restrictions. The ability to trade weeks for Marriott Reward Points was THE reason why most people bought weeks in this region.


Using the destination points will give you other options.  In reality most trading type resorts don't give a lot of points.  I'd point out that what the salesman used to hook you and what you actually bought are 2 different things.  In reality the perks could go away tomorrow.  It'd be a poor choice to buy a Marriott timeshare mainly for the reward points, predictably not going to end well.  



Frisbeeace said:


> Allow me to respectfully disagree. Inflation (and believe me that sadly we are experts in Argentina) affects every price in the economy both your income and your expenses. So it makes absolutely no sense that Marriott "buys" my weeks at 1993 prices while I "buy" their rooms/travel packages/else at 2018 prices. Actually Marriott sells the nights I trade in at 3x the old '93 price but they didn't adjust the exchange rate into MRP accordingly. I wish I could buy any product in the economy at 25 years old prices. Marriott does. We are reaching the point that for my 7 nights 2-bedroom villa peak season I will only get 1 night at a category 9 hotel, same season.


Per your contract they likely spelled this out up front.  In the paperwork I suspect you were told that you would be competing against Marriott and you should not expect to be able to sell or rent effectively.  And that perks including the reward points was not a guaranteed contractual item.



Frisbeeace said:


> I have deposited a New Year's Eve week in II but whenever I ask for anything similar, there is no availability. It looks like I deposited a jewel and all I can obtain is not even comparable either low season or small studios units.


There are no true gems in Orlando when it comes to overall demand in II.  Are you depositing at least 10-12 months out and putting in an ongoing search a full 12-13 months out?


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## SeaDoc (Nov 6, 2018)

When it comes to II, I NEVER deposit first.  Once deposited to II, you've lost your bargaining chip, your week.  Good luck...


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## bazzap (Nov 6, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> When it comes to II, I NEVER deposit first.  Once deposited to II, you've lost your bargaining chip, your week.  Good luck...


Me neither, although many argue there are benefits in doing so.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 6, 2018)

bazzap said:


> Me neither, although many argue there are benefits in doing so.



I haven't used II for a number of years now but back then, if your high-value deposit was eligible for an extra Accommodation Certificate you could only get it by using Deposit First. These specific AC's used to be a really good perk but I don't think that's the case any more because they're heavily restricted and it costs more to use them.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 7, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> When it comes to II, I NEVER deposit first.  Once deposited to II, you've lost your bargaining chip, your week.  Good luck...


I don't really think that II is sitting there plotting ways to get your request first week. Their goal is to get completed exchanges. They don't make money if they don't find a match. I have done request first and deposit first and have so far to date never had them call up trying to bargain with me. The decision to deposit really needs to be made depending on your usage. I have seen no evidence that they prioritize request first over deposit first OGS. If you have no plans to use your week, why hold on to it with a request first OGS?


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## Dean (Nov 7, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> When it comes to II, I NEVER deposit first.  Once deposited to II, you've lost your bargaining chip, your week.  Good luck...


If one might use the week in some other way or possibly rent or deposit elsewhere if it doesn't match, I'd agree.  But if one is set on depositing anyway there are a few advantages to doing so up front and no real downside except as noted.  They do not single out one or the other and certainly don't give request first a leg up so they can get your week.


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## Panina (Nov 7, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> When it comes to II, I NEVER deposit first.  Once deposited to II, you've lost your bargaining chip, your week.  Good luck...


I have used II for years depositing first.  With depositing first I always received a trade.  I am realistic to request weeks that are equivalent to what I own and realize trading an off season lower demand area will not get me a prime season higher demand area, even though it can happen.  

When I use request first I actually have less time to match.  I have better success depositing first.  That said, right now I have a request first for a week I will actually use if I don’t get matched.  If I know for sure I won’t be using my week better to deposit sooner then later to have better trading power.


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## bazzap (Nov 7, 2018)

Even if I have no plans to use the week I am offering Interval for exchange, I still tend to Request First, but using the Marriott Special Request First which allows me to request dates beyond the check in date that I am offering.
This also still gives me other options, e.g. of renting out my week.
Can we ever really know for sure whether Interval gives any relative priority to either Deposit First or Request First?
I just remember being advised way back when we first bought to Request First as it gives Interval added incentive to find your exchange so that they can get your week.
This may or may not be true, but it has always worked for me and until it stops doing so I see no reason to change.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 7, 2018)

bazzap said:


> Can we ever really know for sure whether Interval gives any relative priority to either Deposit First or Request First?


We don't know for sure now, but it was reported years ago by a high level II VP that frequented TUG that if all things were equal they actually gave preference to the deposit first request. I highly suspect that trade power is the number one determining factor, regardless of what kind of OGS you have. Then perhaps if all things are equal, they either go to the type of request or perhaps the date the request was set up. I suspect it is the latter.


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## bazzap (Nov 7, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> We don't know for sure now, but it was reported years ago by a high level II VP that frequented TUG that if all things were equal they actually gave preference to the deposit first request. I highly suspect that trade power is the number one determining factor, regardless of what kind of OGS you have. Then perhaps if all things are equal, they either go to the type of request or perhaps the date the request was set up. I suspect it is the latter.


That sounds reasonable.
I guess as I always request very early and with quite high trading power weeks that would explain my high success rate, so far anyway. I do keep a close eye on the results though and will change if it seems necessary.


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## Dean (Nov 8, 2018)

bazzap said:


> Even if I have no plans to use the week I am offering Interval for exchange, I still tend to Request First, but using the Marriott Special Request First which allows me to request dates beyond the check in date that I am offering.
> This also still gives me other options, e.g. of renting out my week.
> Can we ever really know for sure whether Interval gives any relative priority to either Deposit First or Request First?
> I just remember being advised way back when we first bought to Request First as it gives Interval added incentive to find your exchange so that they can get your week.
> This may or may not be true, but it has always worked for me and until it stops doing so I see no reason to change.


I've had several other midlevel confirmations as well over the years and non were in direct response to a question where they had to make a choice.  If you have reasons to keep control of the week, absolutely.  The special request first is a great way to do that. But if one is going to deposit later and they know that, it really doesn't make sense to not go ahead and deposit it.  You have the potential to give up trade power and if you change your request later you may actually decrease your chances of matching in some situations.  Also while the current wording for the II special request first seems to read differently, historically if you deposited later with the request still going on, you moved to the back of the line with a new start date for that request.


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## bazzap (Nov 8, 2018)

Dean said:


> I've had several other midlevel confirmations as well over the years and non were in direct response to a question where they had to make a choice.  If you have reasons to keep control of the week, absolutely.  The special request first is a great way to do that. But if one is going to deposit later and they know that, it really doesn't make sense to not go ahead and deposit it.  You have the potential to give up trade power and if you change your request later you may actually decrease your chances of matching in some situations.  Also while the current wording for the II special request first seems to read differently, historically if you deposited later with the request still going on, you moved to the back of the line with a new start date for that request.


Thank you, I will check out the options and wording.
Perhaps it is time to change now, although when one approach has always delivered it is difficult to justify changing.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 8, 2018)

bazzap said:


> Me neither, although many argue there are benefits in doing so.



It's the only way I roll (deposit first) and have been extremely happy with my trades over a 20+ year period.

Regarding MR points - I am still happy with them. MR points are currency the way I look at it. So, is it reasonable to be able to use the same number of points 20 years later for the same room in the same location/hotel, after 20 years of hotel price increases? Obviously not.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 8, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> So, is it reasonable to be able to use the same number of points 20 years later for the same room in the same location/hotel, after 20 years of hotel price increases? Obviously not.



I think that would be a valid argument if the fees required to get MR was the same as it was 20 years ago, but that has gone up as well so the only fair way to compare is looking at the cost of the MR points vs rental rate back then to the costs today of both. Are they comparable ? If the cost of getting a room with points was say 50% of the retail cost with cash, what is it like today ? That's the only way you can compare apples to apples.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 8, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Regarding MR points - I am still happy with them. MR points are currency the way I look at it. So, is it reasonable to be able to use the same number of points 20 years later for the same room in the same location/hotel, after 20 years of hotel price increases? Obviously not.



No but 20 years ago, MF were $700 and you could get $600-900+ value when converting.  Both the hotel prices and MF's have been going up plus the number of points required to book hotels have been going up but the number of MR points when converting has stayed the same. So now paying $1200 in MF results in $200-$600 value (or less).    This is very common in the timeshare with hotel reward point conversions though, as it was a sales tool and they didn't care to prop up the value ongoing for something that you already bought.  They do still vaguely tout the "benefit" of MR conversion for DC points but are careful not to go into the specifics of what you can get with those points vs how much the MF's on the points are.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 8, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> I think that would be a valid argument if the fees required to get MR was the same as it was 20 years ago, but that has gone up as well so the only fair way to compare is looking at the cost of the MR points vs rental rate back then to the costs today of both. Are they comparable ? If the cost of getting a room with points was say 50% of the retail cost with cash, what is it like today ? That's the only way you can compare apples to apples.



Those are two separate issues. Timeshare is a timeshare, the intent was not to give you MR points as your currency, it was an option never guaranteed in any way shape or form. I am speaking only of MR points. Sure, if you use a timeshare in some odd way, that may change over time. Those are different companies, MVCI vs hotels.

Trying to equate timeshare value as how many points you can get in a hotel system is odd to me. You can still occupy your TS, as you have always been able to, and you can still trade it, rent it, etc. If you see no value in that, by all means, do get out, that would only make sense.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 8, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Those are two separate issues. Timeshare is a timeshare, the intent was not to give you MR points as your currency, it was an option never guaranteed in any way shape or form. I am speaking only of MR points. Sure, if you use a timeshare in some odd way, that may change over time. Those are different companies, MVCI vs hotels.



You're right that that wasn't the intent, but they sure sold it as it was and obviously the OP bought it with that intent in mind as that is what he was told and sold on to buy in the first place. It wasn't the timeshare side that made him buy it.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 8, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> You're right that that wasn't the intent, but they sure sold it as was and obviously the OP bought it with that intent in mind as that is what he was told and sold on to buy in the first place. It wasn't the timeshare side that made him buy it.



He may have, I was not at the presentation, nor were you. Though, it is likely. But this is where TUG and other timeshare education is a must really for anyone considering a purchase. Sadly, many of us were not educated when we made the purchase and only believed what we heard. I consider all options of ways to use the system as here today, gone tomorrow. I've never seen any value in trading for MR points, even 21 years ago when we first purchased. For me, the 110,000 (I think) MR points were not equal at all to occupying, locking off, and getting a nice second week, along with lots of getaways. But, I guess there are always scenarios. and certainly foreign might make some sense.

MVCI does not really control MR points, not the same company. Even if they wanted to give you the same value per MF dollar, it's not their company. All I am saying is due to this, you shouldn't equate MF dollars to MR points. Even though you may have believed you could at one time or were seemingly sold that way.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 8, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> He may have, I was not at the presentation, nor were you. Though, it is likely. But this is where TUG and other timeshare education is a must really for anyone considering a purchase. Sadly, many of us were not educated when we made the purchase and only believed what we heard. I consider all options of ways to use the system as here today, gone tomorrow. I've never seen any value in trading for MR points, even 21 years ago when we first purchased. For me, the 110,000 (I think) MR points were not equal at all to occupying, locking off, and getting a nice second week, along with lots of getaways. But, I guess there are always scenarios. and certainly foreign might make some sense.
> 
> MVCI does not really control MR points, not the same company. Even if they wanted to give you the same value per MF dollar, it's not their company. All I am saying is due to this, you shouldn't equate MF dollars to MR points. Even though you may have believed you could at one time or were seemingly sold that way.



I don't disagree that it has always been a poor value and usually an poor decision to use it that way.  Just really saying that in the case where you had said the number of points should not be the same taking into consideration inflation, I just don't think it is a valid reason to justify what they have done as the MF has gone up as well. It wouldn't be any different if they started to devalue DP and make it more and more points to get a week, I would think there would be an outcry as well.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 8, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> I don't disagree that it has always been a poor value and usually an poor decision to use it that way.  Just really saying that in the case where you had said the number of points should not be the same taking into consideration inflation, I just don't think it is a valid reason to justify what they have done as the MF has gone up as well. It wouldn't be any different if they started to devalue DP and make it more and more points to get a week, I would think there would be an outcry as well.



Again, it's not the same company! That's apples and oranges. You say "what they have done", who exactly is they? We are talking about a timeshare ownership, "they" cannot be MVCI. MR points are not controlled by MVCI nor do they (the 2 companies) have the same interests. So, my comment seems accurate as MR points are a hotel program primarily, and, hotels have indeed gone up a *lot* in 20 years. Timeshares have nothing to do with this. I remain pleased with my MR points. No outcry here, I am no more shocked that things have gone up with MR points than I am with massive food price increases over the past 5 years and huge restaurant increases in the last 2 years. Restaurants that I could pay $12 for DW and I are now close to $30. Of course, sure, I'd prefer to pay the same (in MR points and everything else).


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## Dean (Nov 8, 2018)

bazzap said:


> Thank you, I will check out the options and wording.
> Perhaps it is time to change now, although when one approach has always delivered it is difficult to justify changing.


Each has its place and used in some ways it likely wouldn't matter.  But if one is definitely going to deposit it makes sense to do so before starting a given search and certainly at least 10-12 months out.  I went back and reviewed the II info from 2007 and also from a year or 2 ago and the wording is clearly different.  I know at one point if you deposited the week later you lost your place in line.  The current wording suggests you do not.  I think this is also an area where rules and function are somewhat different or at least variable.  You should have the option of getting your week back or continuing the search and there does not appear to be a default from a rule standpoint but from what I can gather II tends to default to depositing the week in the absence of instructions otherwise.  



Quadmaniac said:


> You're right that that wasn't the intent, but they sure sold it as was and obviously the OP bought it with that intent in mind as that is what he was told and sold on to buy in the first place. It wasn't the timeshare side that made him buy it.


Clearly but I'd ague it was lack of understanding of what they were and were not getting and that the risks were somewhat predictable as in they knew or should have known this option might not be viable long term.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 8, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Again, it's not the same company! That's apples and oranges. You say "what they have done", who exactly is they? We are talking about a timeshare ownership, "they" cannot be MVCI. MR points are not controlled by MVCI nor do they (the 2 companies) have the same interests. So, my comment seems accurate as MR points are a hotel program primarily, and, hotels have indeed gone up a *lot* in 20 years. Timeshares have nothing to do with this. I remain pleased with my MR points. No outcry here, I am no more shocked that things have gone up with MR points than I am with massive food price increases over the past 5 years and huge restaurant increases in the last 2 years. Restaurants that I could pay $12 for DW and I are now close to $30. Of course, sure, I'd prefer to pay the same (in MR points and everything else).



It doesn't matter if they are two companies or not. In this scenario, if someone is electing MP, there is going to be a fee paid from MVCI to Marriott Hotels to acquire their points for accounting purposes on both sides. I'm sure it is X amount per 10,000 points for example. And proportionally if the points are being devalued, theoretically, MVCI would be getting more points for $ X on top of the higher MF each year. Essential, even though they are separate, they are related companies and the transfers between the two are not at arms length. 

Yes they promised 100,000, for example, but its a kind of slimy to be devaluing what people had bargained for in the beginning when they bought in.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 8, 2018)

Dean said:


> Clearly but I'd ague it was lack of understanding of what they were and were not getting and that the risks were somewhat predictable as in they knew or should have known this option might not be viable long term.



In reality, how many people buying timeshares for the first time (or multiple times even) REALLY know what it is they are TRULY buying and what the contract really means ? If it wasn't for TUG, I wouldn't know crap all about the timeshares other than what a salesperson tells me and that is probably the norm. Some people here are probably more well versed about the ins and outs as we've been able to exchange information and learn from others, but most who are buying timeshares don't have that luxury. Our community is but a tiny slice of the number of owners out there and I would bet that the vast majority of timeshare owners (TUG and non TUG) would not be able to pick this out if presented to them today.

Look at the tall tales timeshare sales people throw out in presentations even today, how many can filter out the BS that flows between their lips ? I agree ultimately the responsibility is on the owner to be an informed buyer, but it is hard when you are usually dealing with a con artist trying to separate you from your money. We still have people paying 30-40K for their Mexican TS that they can “rent out and make money”.


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## ArubaOwnsRoytman (Nov 8, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> As stated previously, the 110K Marriott Reward Points have indeed lost their potency, due to Marriott International, NOT Marriott Vacation Club.  I never turn my weeks into MRP any longer due to this declining value.  However, the destination points that my weeks garner, hold their value, and when compared to the maintenance fees I pay on these points, I come out 3-5 times ahead when comparing with rental rates vs MF cost of the points.  Recognize that there is still enormous value, if you work this program, the right way, NOT the wrong way.



In a perfect world one can always book premium dates when calling at 6 am PST in order to book 13 months out during peak rental times while only accessing half the inventory that the vacation club trust owns (which lets be honest at some of the resorts isn't much if anything). Sadly this isn't the reality for the vast majority. More specifically those looking to use their vacation club points to visit maui lahaina & napili towers and stay in a three bedroom ocean front condo over new years.


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## TXTortoise (Nov 8, 2018)

ArubaOwnsRoytman said:


> In a perfect world one can always book premium dates when calling at 6 am PST in order to book 13 months out during peak rental times while only accessing half the inventory that the vacation club trust owns (which lets be honest at some of the resorts isn't much if anything). Sadly this isn't the reality for the vast majority. More specifically those looking to use their vacation club points to visit maui lahaina & napili towers and stay in a three bedroom ocean front condo over new years.



Great example, as New Years in a MOC Lahaina/Napili 3BR OF is probably the ultimate unicorn for points holders.
With only 22 New Year's weeks, I'd be surprised if half are in the Trust.  I know about 30% of weeks 6-7-8 are definitely not, and probably much higher than that.


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## Dean (Nov 9, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> In reality, how many people buying timeshares for the first time (or multiple times even) REALLY know what it is they are TRULY buying and what the contract really means ? If it wasn't for TUG, I wouldn't know crap all about the timeshares other than what a salesperson tells me and that is probably the norm. Some people here are probably more well versed about the ins and outs as we've been able to exchange information and learn from others, but most who are buying timeshares don't have that luxury. Our community is but a tiny slice of the number of owners out there and I would bet that the vast majority of timeshare owners (TUG and non TUG) would not be able to pick this out if presented to them today.
> 
> Look at the tall tales timeshare sales people throw out in presentations even today, how many can filter out the BS that flows between their lips ? I agree ultimately the responsibility is on the owner to be an informed buyer, but it is hard when you are usually dealing with a con artist trying to separate you from your money. We still have people paying 30-40K for their Mexican TS that they can “rent out and make money”.


No doubt it tends to be a sleazy business but that doesn't remove the opportunity or the responsibility for the buyer to do the due diligent or to take their chances if they don't.  There would have been language in the documents that they agreed to signifying that verbal representations weren't binding and there would have been language stating that ancillary perks were not guaranteed.  The same is true for the option of selling or rental later.  I know the attitude of personal responsibility is rare in today's world but I'm a big believer and it's directly applicable in today's world.  

I do know of a couple of very strong arm examples from MX that I would look at differently.  A few years ago we were in Cabo sitting at dinner and the table next to us, 3 couples, were talking about this very issue.  Apparently they'd been sold timeshares with the idea of renting and writing them off.  I had to tell them it wasn't legal.  From the conversation they were obviously astute business people overall, they should have known better or at least to check it out independently.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 9, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> It doesn't matter if they are two companies or not. In this scenario, if someone is electing MP, there is going to be a fee paid from MVCI to Marriott Hotels to acquire their points for accounting purposes on both sides. I'm sure it is X amount per 10,000 points for example. And proportionally if the points are being devalued, theoretically, MVCI would be getting more points for $ X on top of the higher MF each year. Essential, even though they are separate, they are related companies and the transfers between the two are not at arms length.
> 
> Yes they promised 100,000, for example, but its a kind of slimy to be devaluing what people had bargained for in the beginning when they bought in.



Ok, so, you are getting closer to understanding.... We (I) don't know what the currency or deal is between MVCI and Marriott Hotels. But let's say it is money as you have tried to explain, as that makes things easier to grasp.

So, you have stated that Marriott has devalued MR. Ok, so, I assume you know what that means, you get less right? So, if MVCI user was getting 100,000 points for $1000 or whatever the rate is, and the MR points were devalued, is Marriott Hotels now going to give you 150,000 points for the same $1000? If they did, that means there was no devaluation right? Clearly, the hotel side wants you to get less for the same number of points. They do not want you to get more points to offset that. So, there is no way you would pay less on the purchase side for the points. Just like hotel guests are not going to get more points for the same stay now to offset the increase in MR points for the usage side. That would make zero sense.

I know what you are trying to say from a consumer side. But it doesn't fly in this scenario. We do not know if MVCI could pay even more for points, if they did, that's another budget item that would go up. And I at least have no idea what the deal is between them. But logic says, if they are devaluing MR points, that the purchase price remains at best the same as otherwise, there is no devaluation. And that is why it does matter that they are separate, different interests. The hotel side wants to devalue. MVCI may not.

And I agree with Dean on the personal responsibility thing. If you have a beef it is with the hotel side, not MVCI on this issue.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 9, 2018)

Dean said:


> From the conversation they were obviously astute business people overall, they should have known better or at least to check it out independently.



That is my point, even generally astute people are being fooled. Of course it is the responsibility of the purchaser but the number who could and would be able to understand all the nuances of contracts are far and few between. Very very few will go though a contract enough to understand all of it and what it actually means for them long term.

Look at the people by DP and then saying they can’t get say Maui week 51/52 - they are being purposely lead astray at the presentation and take the contract as the same. Again people think they are dealing with someone on the up and up - we know this not to be true. Most do not think that timeshare sales people are actually lying to their face. That’s all I’m saying. In the real world you are right, you are responsible for what you sign and if you don’t read it, that’s your issue but you are certainly at a disadvantage from the get go.


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## Quadmaniac (Nov 9, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Ok, so, you are getting closer to understanding.... We (I) don't know what the currency or deal is between MVCI and Marriott Hotels. But let's say it is money as you have tried to explain, as that makes things easier to grasp.
> 
> So, you have stated that Marriott has devalued MR. Ok, so, I assume you know what that means, you get less right? So, if MVCI user was getting 100,000 points for $1000 or whatever the rate is, and the MR points were devalued, is Marriott Hotels now going to give you 150,000 points for the same $1000? If they did, that means there was no devaluation right? Clearly, the hotel side wants you to get less for the same number of points. They do not want you to get more points to offset that. So, there is no way you would pay less on the purchase side for the points. Just like hotel guests are not going to get more points for the same stay now to offset the increase in MR points for the usage side. That would make zero sense.
> 
> ...



It’s not that I don’t understand, I fully understand the situation. I’m just saying it is slimy to be doing this when this was what some were sold on.

This where you don’t understand, I don’t have a beef with it myself as I don’t get or use MP so it doesn’t affect me one bit whether they devalue it. All of my purchases are resale and I have nothing to do with MR or DP, I’m speaking from a purely academic consumer standpoint looking at it from the outside.


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## Dean (Nov 9, 2018)

Quadmaniac said:


> That is my point, even generally astute people are being fooled. Of course it is the responsibility of the purchaser but the number who could and would be able to understand all the nuances of contracts are far and few between. Very very few will go though a contract enough to understand all of it and what it actually means for them long term.
> 
> Look at the people by DP and then saying they can’t get say Maui week 51/52 - they are being purposely lead astray at the presentation and take the contract as the same. Again people think they are dealing with someone on the up and up - we know this not to be true. Most do not think that timeshare sales people are actually lying to their face. That’s all I’m saying. In the real world you are right, you are responsible for what you sign and if you don’t read it, that’s your issue but you are certainly at a disadvantage from the get go.


Sure but it's still on them.  And that situation is a world away from Marriott and the ancillary options.  The timeshares salesperson's job is to sell and not violate the law, that's really it when you boil it down.  And even if their words might be in violation, you sign that verbal representations are not binding.  While I'd agree that none of us, including Marriott, know what will happen long term, that does not relieve us from the obligation to  make the effort and consider the possibilities, most don't even do that.  The other issues do not absolve one from not making the effort and not actually reading the contract and POS.  I remember a DVC member that were very upset about a points reallocation stating they knew it could happen but didn't think it ever would and had assumed it would never happen.  IIRC the salesperson had reassured them in some way it wouldn't happen.


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