# [2019] How Do You Calculate Your Break Even Point?



## csalter2 (Jan 12, 2019)

I would like some assistance in trying to figure out how to determine when has broken even on had on their timeshare purchase.  What strategies do you utilize to determine that you have saved money and it has been worth your purchase? 

Can one look at equivalent accommodations and and start looking at those savings over maintenance fees and add that to the recouping of the original purchase?

Do people also include money saved on eating because of the kitchen? Or what about each time you use a two bedroom you would have had to have because of your children but because you have a timeshare with two bedrooms you have saved on that extra expense of another hotel room. 

I just wonder how do people look at that initial payout and subsequent maintenance fees to determine they have broken even and/or have gotten ahead.  How is it that we should determine that our timeshare has been a good purchase and it’s saving us money.


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## Bucky (Jan 12, 2019)

We have never considered what our break even was. We bought timeshares where we vacation. We considered what we were paying for weekly rentals at that location and realized our timeshare purchase in the long run would be much cheaper and the stay would be at a much higher quality resort. You can’t rent a comparable lodging in Myrtle Beach for what our MF come to yearly. It also didn’t hurt that we bought our units resale during the financial crisis back during 2008-2012.


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## bazzap (Jan 12, 2019)

We didn’t buy into timeshare with a view to breaking even and doubt we ever will.
Our decision was to invest in a lifestyle, not for a financial return.
For this it fulfilled our objective years ago and everything is just a bonus from now onwards.


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## Luvtoride (Jan 12, 2019)

I agree with Bucky, we have never done a detailed calculation of costs, break even or savings.  We don’t consider our timeshare ownership an investment or even an asset so we don’t view it in the same terms we do a financial investment. 

Without posting a picture here, every time I look at one of our family pictures hanging on the wall in my home office of our family (us, our kids, their spouses and our grandkids )taken in Aruba every year for the past 7 years, I know we have more than broken even from our spend on our timeshare expenses!  

Sorry, some things just can’t be measured in $ and cents.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Fairwinds (Jan 12, 2019)

The above posts hit the nail on the head. I think of it as the cost of vacationing the way I want to vacation. That said, I’ve done all the things you mention but mostly out of curiosity. I think the only real way would be to track the cost of renting the MVC villas that you visit over time and some say to somehow throw in a lost return on investment factor, which in my case makes timesharing more attractive .


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## Dean (Jan 12, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I would like some assistance in trying to figure out how to determine when has broken even on had on their timeshare purchase.  What strategies do you utilize to determine that you have saved money and it has been worth your purchase?
> 
> Can one look at equivalent accommodations and and start looking at those savings over maintenance fees and add that to the recouping of the original purchase?
> 
> ...


I don't look at it very often but my method to do so in planning purchase is to use one of 2 metrics, what I could have rented for the same or similar and what I would have spent not owning.  I tend to actually look at both as they can be different.  I also consider dues and the TVM/Opportunity costs of the up front amounts usually assuming half the up front at MM rates and the other half at market rates, I use 8%.  I want return of principle in 10 years or less.


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## ljmiii (Jan 12, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I would like some assistance in trying to figure out how to determine when has broken even on had on their timeshare purchase.  What strategies do you utilize to determine that you have saved money and it has been worth your purchase?


Three different timeshare systems...three different results...but one answer. Multiple bedroom villas are the only way to vacation with more than 2 people. And finding hotels with suites and/or connecting rooms is a pain... and suites are often outrageously expensive. So it has been completely worth it to us.

DVC - My parents, in-laws, ourselves, and our young children wanted to go to WDW together and I paid cash (*cough*) for a 2BR at Wilderness lodge. Being able to make breakfast for everyone and having us stay together on property as an extended family was truly magical. Shortly thereafter I bought at Beach Club Villa...and then later at Bay Lake Tower.  My DVC points have gone up in value and the Disney's changes have made staying 'on property' much more important. So, DVC has been an unqualified success - both from a financial and emotional 'extended family time' standpoint.

HGVC - Shortly after we bought at DVC we stayed at Hilton Hawaiian Village and loved it. As a couple we had been going to Hawaii at least every other year for a long time and now we needed a 1BR. We found one at HHV for which we again paid cash (*cough*). Shortly thereafter I bought an EOY Lagoon Tower 2BR (which sleeps 6)...and after it became apparent that all the grandparents wanted to come as well I bought another. The Lagoon Tower weeks have more or less held their value and the MFs are cheaper than suites for 8 people. So financially somewhere between OK and good...but again a decade of 'extended family time' together in Hawaii has been what truly matters.

MVCI - Along with our HHV purchase I also bought 2 EOY weeks at Waiohai for us all to stay at Poipu Beach on Kauai. Later I added an EOY week on Maui...along with some DPs to enroll all my weeks. Financially somewhere between disastrous and 'maybe not *too* bad' - the longer I hold and profitably use them the less the impact from their depreciation will be. From an emotional standpoint getting to stay at Waiohai EOY with kids and grandparents has been breathtaking - Kauai is heaven on earth with keiki and kapuna around. And the DPs have allowed us to stay in nice villas with our kids all over the US.

I have no idea if it would be worthwhile for an older couple to get into timeshares since a large part of what has made it financially successful for us is the low availability and staggering prices hotels charge for suites - particularly oceanfront ones. Obviously, YMMV.


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## mbstn6254 (Jan 12, 2019)

This is a two part question. Financial and lifestyle. From the financial perspective and from the pure cost of lodging it is fairly easy. Adding in savings from meals because of kitchen facilities makes it a little more difficult but not impossible. For me I have $45,000 into my MVC points. Add to that the yearly maintenance. So if you figure you can earn maybe 3% in a conservative fixed income investment the $45,000 will earn approximately $1,350 a year before taxes or about $1,000 net. Add that to the $2,500 of maintenance fees, I am spending about $3,500 per year on vacations. $3,500 /7 is $500 a night, with the use of my $45,000 if I needed it. The question is where can I go for $500 per night and is that comparable to what I get at the typical MVC Resort. That depends on how you like to travel. The "breakeven" is forever. So...from a financial perspective this isn't a smart move. What our membership has done, however, is force me to take trips and vacations I might not have thought about. The key is to use the points judiciously and look for the bargains.


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## jerseyfinn (Jan 12, 2019)

Speaking only of Marriott TS, there once existed the* relative possibility* to "break even" or actually walk away with money in pocket as a Legacy week owner. This narrow window existed before the recession when specific resorts & specific seasons could net you *real profit* IF you sold your week. All of this when MVC was booming & when growth seemed endless. TS Cost-accounting is mostly meaningless today as it's all negative math.

Some of the MVC "old seadog" owners who buy plat wks at a resort like Ocean Pointe can attest that plat weeks bought for $14-18K would easily have fetched $24K from Marriott resale in the 2005 to 2007 window just prior to the recession ( Marriott selling those same weeks for $40K ). Of course the resale market collapses & Marriott writes down it's losses & the same plat week today would fetch 1/3 or less of that $24K. Marriott of course continues to price them at $40 in the smoke & fog of DC points. And remember, that paper profit only became real if you sold.

Break even is an illusion in today's TS world that's probably worse than the depreciation of a new car driven across the dealer curb. Better to see TS today as an investment in destination travel that leaves your ledger book negative, but the positives are the journey & the people & places you move through over the years. I call all of this the cost of doing destination travel business. 

In our early years of ownership in 2001 I too kept a ledger of theoretical costs. Recession renders that process moot as your real equation today is love or dedication to destination travel. Am I happy with our TS ownership today? Mostly yes. Note that wife & I have been at it since 2001 & MVC ownership made us better travelers both in TS and non-TS trips as we honed in on hotel/MVC/airline paradigms & accept idea of cost of doing destination travel business. 

There were indeed more perks with your spend. Much leaner times today as airlines rational their business & new DC owners need to invest $$$ to gain some DC inertia. We're retired with MVC Chairmans status & MR Lifetime Plat Elite status. Years of travel & $ spent/enjoyed confer some nice perks in retirement for our otherwise negative TS investment. When will we stop? When we're unhappy or don't want to travel anymore. Do we recommend MVC & DC? Only if you're a relativist who enjoys destination travel & even then with great caution about cost of DC points & resale purchases.

As to cost accounting, I reflected more on our investments & retirement savings than counting TS costs as the former are net positives that you can still shape and control whilst TS is a negative that might give some folks ulcers that spoil their travels. We all spend some of our money to negative cost effect. Enjoyment sometimes comes at negative costs. Hope you enjoy your timeshare travels.

barry


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## Quilter (Jan 12, 2019)

We didn’t give breaking even much consideration. I won’t go into details but I’ll focus on my experience in the last 24 hours.

A good friend called me last night to discuss their desire for a beach vacation during Spring Break 3/16-23 this year.   They want to be far south Florida as possible.  In the past they’ve gone to Myrtle Beach with the iffy weather.  I don’t have any available inventory so I did a little searching for them.  I gave him some ball park pricing for 2 and 3 bedroom units at Ocean Pointe (my home resort that they have visited). 

With ownership we know where we’re going, we’re forced to plan ahead, we have flexibility for other options with points and exchanges, our maintenance fees are roughly 1/2 the cost to rent. 

The perks of owning extend further than breaking even.


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## Shankilicious (Jan 12, 2019)

I'm married to an accountant, and she counts everything from how much we've spent on our investment and MF and Everytime we stay at a resort, we compare how much the resort would have cost to book online and of course we rent out some of our points and add that income. 
Of course there's the memories and quality of vacation that is gained vs staying in hotels. 
One of our biggest factors of joining TS was on our honeymoon, all the beaches got closed and it rained half the time. We were lucky to be in a great condo with plenty to do. Had we been with our kids and stuck in a hotel room, it would have been a nightmare.


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## csalter2 (Jan 12, 2019)

Shankilicious said:


> I'm married to an accountant, and she counts everything from how much we've spent on our investment and MF and Everytime we stay at a resort, we compare how much the resort would have cost to book online and of course we rent out some of our points and add that income.
> Of course there's the memories and quality of vacation that is gained vs staying in hotels.
> One of our biggest factors of joining TS was on our honeymoon, all the beaches got closed and it rained half the time. We were lucky to be in a great condo with plenty to do. Had we been with our kids and stuck in a hotel room, it would have been a nightmare.



What were your wife’s findings? Do you come out behind as well?


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## GetawaysRus (Jan 12, 2019)

jerseyfinn said:


> Am I happy with our TS ownership today? Mostly yes. Note that wife & I have been at it since 2001 & MVC ownership made us better travelers both in TS and non-TS trips as we honed in on hotel/MVC/airline paradigms & accept idea of cost of doing destination travel business.
> barry



I think the OP's question is an impossible one.  I'm as calculating as they come, and I try to be careful about our investments, but I long ago gave up the idea of monitoring the pennies regarding our timeshare use and our travels.

We bought from Marriott (and before we found TUG) in 2004.  Along with our initial purchase came a boatload of Marriott Reward points.  Well, I couldn't let those go to waste, so I set about learning how to maximize our use of the MR points.  And from that, I've learned an enormous amount about the travel rewards game.  We now travel in ways that would otherwise be unaffordable for us.  These are much grander, more deluxe trips than I ever envisioned prior to our timeshare ownership.  Yes, I could put a dollar value on those international business class award seats that I obtain using airline reward miles or our reward stays at hotels or our timeshare stays.  But it's impossible to put a dollar value on the memories from our trips.  And it's impossible to put a dollar value on the good feeling I get from treating my beautiful wife to such grand vacations.  As Barry said, we're now much better travelers.

Owning the timeshare does force us to plan.  And it forces us to vacation because we don't want those weeks to go to waste.  I'm not a workaholic, but I have always enjoyed my profession and worked hard.  It's good for me to have that firm nudge from our timeshare ownership that I need to plan some time off from work.  I'm forever saying to my wife: "Where do you want to go next?  What should we plan?  What's our next dream travel destination?"

Also, the timeshare ownership sometimes helps us be spontaneous.  That's a good thing for me, since I'm not a real spontaneous person by nature.  Interval keeps dropping ACs into our account.  Many of them go unused, but every once in a while something will open up that allows us to take a week-long timeshare vacation on very short notice.

The timeshare ownership also allows me to build vacations around it.  For example, we're recently back from a month-long SE Asia trip.  We were busy running around like typical tourists (and stayed in hotels) in Bangkok, Siem Reap, Chiang Mai, and Singapore.  But I was able to insert a one week timeshare stay at the Marriott Phuket Beach Club in between Chiang Mai and Singapore.  That week gave us a chance to slow down and rejuvenate before vacationing onwards as well as enjoy the more spacious 2BR timeshare unit when compared to hotel rooms.

Finally, the timeshare ownership gives us the option of taking 2 different types of vacations.  There are the faster paced touristy vacations (such as our international trips) where we're usually up early to eat breakfast and get out to see the sights.  But then we also can take slower paced timeshare vacations, and I know that my wife enjoys that.  It's relaxing to lounge in your timeshare unit in your jammies in the morning and not have to get dressed and go out for breakfast.  That's another thing that I can't put a dollar value on.

Am I happy about the steady rise in maintenance fees?  Nope.  Am I happy about the unit size upgrade fees that Interval introduced?  Nope.  But I'm still determined that we'll do our best to maximize the value of our ownership and enjoy our travels.


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## x3 skier (Jan 12, 2019)

Every time I read something like this thread, I’m very content to have the ones I have Steamboat Springs and in Raintree. The two in Steamboat can be sold for what I paid (or more) and I’ll be out of Raintree in a few years.

My annual 6 week Steamboat ski season stay is less than a week charges for a comparable unit and about half of what I pay for renting for another 6 weeks. The Raintree week is slightly less than rental. 

Reading about the high end other systems (DVC, etc.) makes me think you won’t ever break even but I have zero real knowledge about them.

Cheers


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 12, 2019)

Pretty much, the early posts in this thread have nailed it. But if you insist on cost analysis, we did it once on one trip (out of 21 years of trips). We compared the cost we paid for our Australia trip a few years back to what it would have cost without timeshares. So, we included maintenance fees for what we used (3 different TS), airfare, hotel, a portion of our upfront costs to buy the timeshare(s) in question (1/10th), and exchange fees and even the annual DC fee for the II membership. Note we used 1/10th of our upfront costs, which is too much since we've owned for 21 years, but some was purchased later so it was fair. And note this means we consider our resale value as $0 else that number should be reduced as any resale recoups some of that cost (though inflation kills some of that). We considered food a break even since presumably one could have a kitchen without a timeshare, though hotel would have significantly added to the cost. We noted the best prices we could find for equivalent accommodations in the areas we went to. Note that we included airfare. Why you ask, because that's a perk of our ownership. Most view presentations as a labor, hate them, etc. We see it as income, as those pay for our airfare on overseas trips, we've never ever purchased an overseas ticket.

So, how did it turn out? We were over $10,000 ahead, *on one trip*. Just in accommodations, we were at least 5k ahead (from memory, it's posted somewhere on this site). It was easy to see that we are vastly ahead on our purchase. But we are aggressive users who use all of the tricks to squeeze out the best value we can get. This year, we are heading to Fiji, then on to Brisbane, then on to Thailand. Airfare: $0 (ok $200 in taxes), thanks to presentations. The MF is quite low. And the presentations paid for the Fiji "hotel" stay at Momi Bay also, which is more like a TS. In 2020, we go to Uganda, again, we already have the miles from presentations (had accumulated them for a few years).

So, I disagree that one cannot come out ahead. But YMMV, depends on what you bought, how you use it, etc. Granted not all trips come out this way. However, I also view II getaways as a perk. Staying in Williamsburg for a 2 weeks in a 3BR house for $500 ($35/night) is just kind of hard to do otherwise for example. Coming out ahead was not our goal. Our goal was to travel, and, this sort of forces us to do so. And we are glad it does. But we thought it fun to do an analysis for the one trip, which admittedly was best case scenario. But, we've done such trips many times over 21 years.

There is simply no question we have received all our money back and then some from our purchases. But far more importantly, we took dozens and dozens of trips we would otherwise never have taken. And those trips are priceless.

A simpler way of looking at it is this, we have 12 weeks we are taking this year. Just considering accommodations, nothing else, and figuring the cost per night in MF and upfront costs, it's easy to see as well we are way ahead.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 12, 2019)

What do you mean by "break even"?  We all understand the unlikelihood of ever getting one's purchase price back. So the question is what is the return on "investment" (ROI) during the time of ownership.

My own metric is a 10% ROI.  That is much more than what I get from my financial investments, but my investments generally increase in value.  The 10% is based on a safe return on capital (e.g. Treasury bonds) PLUS increments for capital risk, lack of control (i.e. no control over MF's; no control over changes in rules), and lack of marketability (it's easy to sell securities, more difficult to sell timeshares).

I compare rental value vs. cost.  Rental value is per Redweek, not a hotel site, because an "apples to apples" comparison needs to include the concepts of a full week reservation with little flexibility.  My cost is the 10% ROI on the current value of the TS + the annual MF's and mandatory club fees.

My Kierland platinum 2bd unit rents for about $3,700 vs. MF's of $1,565; my "profit" is $2,135.  If someone were to buy it for its FMV of $15,000 today, s/he would earn a 15% ROI -- a pretty good deal.

By contrast, my Kauai Beach Club 1bd OF unit rents for about $2,200 (Redweek rents are actually all over the place on this unit, suggesting additional risk), vs MF's of $1,921.  The rental "profit" of a mere $279 suggests a value of $2,790.  That's an ROI of about 4% on an "investment" of $7,000 to purchase it.  I will probably sell this unit because I am not adequately compensated for the capital I have tied up in it (i.e. its $7,000 value).

I do not consider the ability to cook in my TS nor do I compare a TS to a hotel suite. I can cook in a rented TS (or in a rented condo or in something such as Marriott's residence clubs).  A hotel suite has different and usually better amenities.  My analysis attempts to compare the full cost of ownership vs. the cost of a _comparable_ rental to determine whether owning is cheaper than renting.  If owning is cheaper over time, I believe I break even or profit.

Obviously there are situations where intangibles trump economics, such as that week 7 ski week, that fixed summer week where you have friends every year, or in my case, our OF unit at WKORV; I cannot make the math work but remain willing to pay for it.


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## Shankilicious (Jan 12, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> What were your wife’s findings? Do you come out behind as well?


We're slowly making ground to get ahead. But it's gonna be a long trip to getting there since we bought from the developer... But every year we calculate the vacations we take with our points and add up what it would cost us without our ownership. including MF of course and we've been saving money and taking better vacations and more very nice getaways.


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## Dean (Jan 12, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> What were your wife’s findings? Do you come out behind as well?


I can tell you ours and my observations.  With DVC we came out ahead early but it was because we got free passes for several years.  Otherwise it would have been 7-10 years apples to apples.  But in reality most just spend the money elsewhere so there is no real savings with DVC.

Bluegreen saves me a ton because I got in so cheaply at Platinum (actually Gold before Platinum existed) and the dues setup there combined with their resorts and the way we use it.  Our best value is using bonus time, esp for Presidential units at $79-$99 a night. We use some for family trips and it works well when we do.

Marriott - no really savings but it allows us to travel and give back to family with multiple units at Grande Ocean most years.


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## dansimms (Jan 12, 2019)

If you financed your purchase with Marriott, like I did, and took the better part of 5 to 10 years to pay it off, factor that into your calculations.  Perhaps adding another 5 years to break even, or more. Without a timeshare, I never would have budgeted as much money and time to travel, so I have no regrets.  After the great recession, I had to painfully close a business down and lay off workers and had about 5 years of paying off a lot of debt.  Knowing that I had 3 weeks vacation, even in a hard time like that was huge psychologically, because having a trip to look forward to, was and will always be so important to us. If I could have gotten more for my timeshares, I would have seriously considered selling them all, as we were facing a foreclosure at the time.  Thankfully, we were able to dig out after about 6 or 7 years and are so glad we still have our MVCI portfolio and it will remain an integral part of our retirement lifestyle in a few years.


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## cp73 (Jan 12, 2019)

Quick and dirty

Roughly 40 years with these assumptions:
Resale price at breakeven is 10% of original purchase price which you purchased directly from Marriott; 
You are able to rent the same unit off from a private party for approximately 50% higher than your maintenance fees. 
Food will be the same. 
Not factored in is the cost of money or inflation, which would push it out a few years further.


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## csalter2 (Jan 13, 2019)

I agree with all of the responses that state that the rewards and benefits of timesharing are beyond dollars and cents.  The experiences and memories that families share cannot be measured in money.  

However, I can’t help to think if there are some ways in which we can feel that our purchases are worthy of some value.  I wanted to know if there were people who felt in the long run they were saving money than if they merely used hotels or rented condos all the time.  

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.


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## Dean (Jan 13, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I agree with all of the responses that state that the rewards and benefits of timesharing are beyond dollars and cents.  The experiences and memories that families share cannot be measured in money.
> 
> However, I can’t help to think if there are some ways in which we can feel that our purchases are worthy of some value.  I wanted to know if there were people who felt in the long run they were saving money than if they merely used hotels or rented condos all the time.
> 
> I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.


We appreciate the extra amenities and space that timeshares tend to offer as well as some of the other amenities/activities that many resorts offer.  I travel more because of timeshares and in reality timeshares Have "forced" me to travel more which is a good thing for me and has helped me achieve a better balance between work and play and to spend more family time.


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## bogey21 (Jan 13, 2019)

The reason I owned TS Weeks (Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units) was certainty.  Certainty that I would be able to stay in the Unit of my choice at locations of my choice and, knowing when I would be traveling, be able to minimize traveling expenses.  My trips were an expense.  Breaking even was never a consideration.  Minimizing expenses were...

George


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## dgf15215 (Jan 13, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I agree with all of the responses that state that the rewards and benefits of timesharing are beyond dollars and cents.  The experiences and memories that families share cannot be measured in money.
> 
> However, I can’t help to think if there are some ways in which we can feel that our purchases are worthy of some value.  I wanted to know if there were people who felt in the long run they were saving money than if they merely used hotels or rented condos all the time.
> 
> I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.



I think that you've read enough so far to figure out that most of us perceive the "value" of the timeshare as something differently than the dollars and cents value. We've been in the system for sixteen, seventeen years now and over the years added to the point that we've maxed out in terms of our needs. When you buy a stake in the system you are committing to use it, to enjoy the benefits. I darn well know that if we had to put out the dollars required to go to Hawaii at the end of this week, or to the south of Spain a few weeks after that trip concludes, we probably wouldn't. But we are, and are already booking for next year. Of course, at some point we'll be leaving the use of these points to our kids, a gift that will keep giving long after we're gone. We see "value" in that. We even see "value" in the perks we get because we have enough points to be in the chairman's club and as we travel to Marriotts around the globe we've had royal treatment that is tough to come by. In our minds it all adds up pretty well. I wish I knew about this forum in 2003 and was smarter about some the purchases we made along the way, but that's life.

I think that George (above) has a good point - it's about minimizing expenses and getting what you want. When the market in FL was tanking, we looked at some condos down there. Not expensive ones so they weren't on the beach. At the end of the day I didn't want to be responsible for another vacation property, I wanted a key and a number to call if there's a problem. I like being on the beach by walking out the door, not finding a parking spot an hour through traffic away. Those were the values that drove us to invest in more points rather than more property.

It's an individual decision. If you are going to buy, pay attention to the resources and advice right here. There's a font of wisdom and experience to help make your decision in the best possible way. Good luck.


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## Dean (Jan 13, 2019)

Let me make a point on the other side.  Anyone that doesn't at least consider the costs is being foolish.


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## Shankilicious (Jan 13, 2019)

You also can't put a price on flexibility. For me, I have a lot of friends with a vacation home or RV. So I compare my MFs to the price of property taxes, up keep, repairs, utilities, insurance, and they're way lower than that. Plus, owning that home in one spot is no good for me, I don't want to go to the same place several times a year. And if something breaks, I've gotta pay to fix it......

Now, some will argue that if you own a house in a great vacation spot, you can rent it out when youre not using it and make your money back or even a profit. But that's no guarantee. 

And I don't even want to talk about RVs other than that I share the opinion of Jeff Foxworthy, "RV doesn't stand for 'Recreational Vehicle' it stands for 'Ruins Vacations'!"


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## Dean (Jan 13, 2019)

Shankilicious said:


> You also can't put a price on flexibility. For me, I have a lot of friends with a vacation home or RV. So I compare my MFs to the price of property taxes, up keep, repairs, utilities, insurance, and they're way lower than that. Plus, owning that home in one spot is no good for me, I don't want to go to the same place several times a year. And if something breaks, I've gotta pay to fix it......
> 
> Now, some will argue that if you own a house in a great vacation spot, you can rent it out when youre not using it and make your money back or even a profit. But that's no guarantee.
> 
> And I don't even want to talk about RVs other than that I share the opinion of Jeff Foxworthy, "RV doesn't stand for 'Recreational Vehicle' it stands for 'Ruins Vacations'!"


Everything is less flexible than cash, after that it's just how flexible is the system in your specific situation.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 13, 2019)

Dean said:


> Let me make a point on the other side.  Anyone that doesn't at least consider the costs is being foolish.



I agree with Dean. While the intrinsic, qualitative benefits and flexibility are real, and are a very important benefit of ownership, we still keep track of the ongoing cost/benefit. The cost-benefit isn't the whole story, but it's a component. I have an Excel spreadsheet that tracks our purchase cost and our annual expenses for maintenance fees, club fees, point rental costs, etc. Against those costs, I offset what the same or substantially similar accommodations would have cost us if we did not own. Since we aren't a "rent from owner" or VRBO type, I compare against sites like Marriott.com and Hilton.com, which is where we always book our accommodations when we aren't using something we own. Each year, our savings compared to the alternative rental cost offsets part of our purchase price.


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

Shankilicious said:


> You also can't put a price on flexibility. For me, I have a lot of friends with a vacation home or RV. So I compare my MFs to the price of property taxes, up keep, repairs, utilities, insurance, and they're way lower than that. Plus, owning that home in one spot is no good for me, I don't want to go to the same place several times a year. And if something breaks, I've gotta pay to fix it......
> 
> Now, some will argue that if you own a house in a great vacation spot, you can rent it out when youre not using it and make your money back or even a profit. But that's no guarantee.
> 
> And I don't even want to talk about RVs other than that I share the opinion of Jeff Foxworthy, "RV doesn't stand for 'Recreational Vehicle' it stands for 'Ruins Vacations'!"



Why do RVs ruin vacations?


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## csalter2 (Jan 13, 2019)

I strongly considered a vacation home at one time.  However, I like going to different places. Thus, paying for the vacation home and still traveling to different locations would be like a double cost.  As an educator, I do have spring, winter and summer breaks along with various three and four day weekends.  However, I would not want to go to a single location every break I had.  Palm Desert is less than two hours from me. I love going there, but would not want to go EVERY break there so timeshares do help.  Plus, there is no guarantee you are going to be able to rent your vacation home out every week that is available to when you’re not using it. 

Do any of you look at the amount of time you’re able to get for your week or points as money savers? For example, if you lock off and get two weeks for your two bedroom. That is stretching your maintenance fees further and decreasing cost per night.  What about when you use your points for Destination Escapes? Where you can get a studio for $35 per night, one bedrooms for $70 per night and two bedrooms for $104 per night.  I base these prices on today’s maintenance fees. How we include our initial buy in costs to help represent savings?  

There has to be a financial incentive that was considered when we bought.  I have owned timeshares since 1999 and my first Marriott property in 2001.  I believe that I have benefitted from them and ahead of my initial costs. I am just trying to see what people use to see if they have recouped their initial investment.


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## csalter2 (Jan 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with Dean. While the intrinsic, qualitative benefits and flexibility are real, and are a very important benefit of ownership, we still keep track of the ongoing cost/benefit. The cost-benefit isn't the whole story, but it's a component. I have an Excel spreadsheet that tracks our purchase cost and our annual expenses for maintenance fees, club fees, point rental costs, etc. Against those costs, I offset what the same or substantially similar accommodations would have cost us if we did not own. Since we aren't a "rent from owner" or VRBO type, I compare against sites like Marriott.com and Hilton.com, which is where we always book our accommodations when we aren't using something we own. Each year, our savings from the rental cost, offsets part of our purchase price.



Thanks JIMinNC! That is kind of what I am looking for. When people are able to use rentals that are able to give them twice their maintenane fees, that is offsetting the original cost to me.  That’s a good example.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 13, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> Thanks JIMinNC! That is kind of what I am looking for. When people are able to use rentals that are able to give them twice their maintenane fees, that is offsetting the original cost to me.  That’s a good example.



Just to make sure I was clear...when I initially said above, "savings from the rental cost," I wasn't talking about renting out OUR timeshares to offset maintenance fees. We have never done that. I was referring to OUR savings when comparing our maintenance fees and other annual costs to what it WOULD have cost us had we rented the same accommodations for our trip on Marriott.com, Hilton.com, etc.

But, IF we were to ever rent out something we own to someone else, we would definitely add that incoming revenue into our spreadsheet as a "benefit" offsetting our costs.


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## Shankilicious (Jan 13, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Why do RVs ruin vacations?


Theyre a nightmare to drive, maintenance on them is extremely costly, your family is on top of each other the whole time, and they depreciate faster than a car. The whole concept just seems like a nightmare on wheels


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## ljmiii (Jan 13, 2019)

Shankilicious said:


> Theyre a nightmare to drive, maintenance on them is extremely costly, your family is on top of each other the whole time, and they depreciate faster than a car. The whole concept just seems like a nightmare on wheels


Maybe it's a 'time of life' thing. My parents have been VERY happy RV'ers for over 20 years now. They started out doing weekend jaunts in the NJ/NY/PA area. Then they retired and turned into snowbirds - three seasons of the year they are home around 3/4 of the time (travelling as far as Maine, Michigan, and Virginia) and then they head south and/or west for Winter.

Over those 20+ years they have had all of two motorhomes and expect their current one will last them a few more years. It does restrict the type of vehicles you can own - at least one of them has to be 'towable'. And my Dad is 'handy' and does most of the maintenance himself. But overall owning a RV has been a great joy for them.


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## Fasttr (Jan 13, 2019)

Dean said:


> Let me make a point on the other side.  Anyone that doesn't at least consider the costs is being foolish.


But you should have considered those things BEFORE you purchased.  Afterwards, just enjoy what you have purchased without second guessing yourself.


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## Katfan (Jan 13, 2019)

I have thought about this subject recently since my husband and I are in the midst of estate planning. We came late to the game and bought Lakeshore Reserve from Marriott in 2009 presale (first use year 2011).  Then in 2011 bought 2500 DPs again from Marriott. Given our premiere ownership in the early stages of the points program we are grandfathered in as executive members. We have had wonderful vacations including 3 trips to Hawaii in OF units for 2 weeks at a time, a honeymoon gift to our DD in Oahu, 2 stays at Lakeshore Reserve in our 3 bedroom townhouse, a week in a 2 bedroom villa in Marbella, and a great Christmas cruise using holding points. As my DH says ownership really makes you plan vacations you may never have taken without the incentive to use your weeks/points. Now that we are empty nesters nearing retirement we are considering the best way to maximize our ownership for longer stays at our favorite places. But we do not regret our purchases (luckily we had the resources to pay cash) and agree that the wonderful experiences outweigh any perceived sense of a bad investment.


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 13, 2019)

Katfan said:


> I have thought about this subject recently since my husband and I are in the midst of estate planning. We came late to the game and bought Lakeshore Reserve from Marriott in 2009 presale (first use year 2011).  Then in 2011 bought 2500 DPs again from Marriott. Given our premiere ownership in the early stages of the points program we are grandfathered in as executive members. We have had wonderful vacations including 3 trips to Hawaii in OF units for 2 weeks at a time, a honeymoon gift to our DD in Oahu, 2 stays at Lakeshore Reserve in our 3 bedroom townhouse, a week in a 2 bedroom villa in Marbella, and a great Christmas cruise using holding points. As my DH says ownership really makes you plan vacations you may never have taken without the incentive to use your weeks/points. Now that we are empty nesters nearing retirement we are considering the best way to maximize our ownership for longer stays at our favorite places. But we do not regret our purchases (luckily we had the resources to pay cash) and agree that the wonderful experiences outweigh any perceived sense of a bad investment.



For us, we would use your Lakeshore as 2 weeks, and, extend each week via points by 5 weekdays (weekend is more points). So each week would be a 12 night stay. Supplement that with accommodation certificates or getaways. Use any remaining points to reserve within 30 days (discount).


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## Dean (Jan 13, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> But you should have considered those things BEFORE you purchased.  Afterwards, just enjoy what you have purchased without second guessing yourself.


Before and periodically, esp for things that have real value (as most of what I own does).  If ones keeps an item, it's as if they've bought it again at the current price and situation.  One should reevaluate periodically.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 13, 2019)

Dean said:


> Before and periodically, esp for things that have real value (as most of what I own does).  If ones keeps an item, it's as if they've bought it again at the current price and situation.  One should reevaluate periodically.



Exactly. That's what I maintain the cost of ownership spreadsheet I mentioned. If ever our annual savings started to evaporate for any reason, I would start to evaluate whether we want to continue to own. We did the same for our previous ownership in another timeshare system (bought in 1998 at developer prices). When we sold it in 2014, our net cost/benefit after 16 years was a net benefit of about $5,000.


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## ljmiii (Jan 13, 2019)

Dean said:


> Before and periodically, esp for things that have real value (as most of what I own does).  If ones keeps an item, it's as if they've bought it again at the current price and situation.  One should reevaluate periodically.


I've actually been struggling with this as we look to an empty nest in the years ahead...and perhaps grandchildren in the years beyond that.

DVC is relatively easy to evaluate. There is a huge and fairly liquid market for DVC points so selling and buying is basically the overhead of two closings (barring a sudden surge in demand).

HGVC is a little harder. The market is not as liquid and it took me a couple of years to find one of my weeks. But in concept I could sell and buy for the price of two closings.

But MVCI is a completely different kettle of fish. They've intentionally 'broken' the resale value of weeks and the MVCI 'tax' on buying DPs resale is almost 100%. So selling and buying would be a monumental error.


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with Dean. While the intrinsic, qualitative benefits and flexibility are real, and are a very important benefit of ownership, we still keep track of the ongoing cost/benefit. The cost-benefit isn't the whole story, but it's a component. I have an Excel spreadsheet that tracks our purchase cost and our annual expenses for maintenance fees, club fees, point rental costs, etc. Against those costs, I offset what the same or substantially similar accommodations would have cost us if we did not own. Since we aren't a "rent from owner" or VRBO type, I compare against sites like Marriott.com and Hilton.com, which is where we always book our accommodations when we aren't using something we own. Each year, our savings compared to the alternative rental cost offsets part of our purchase price.



So, when you do this comparison, you will always get those who say I can reserve that for less, and maybe they can, sometimes. But that's a different question I believe. So, for example, Phuket Beach Club in June, I see on booking.com a week for $3,009. I see it on marriott.com for ~2,100. From time to time, one might be able to find it on some site somewhere for less, and, they will claim see, you are paying too much. The problem with that line of thinking is it only applies to a small number of people, you cannot fill the place at that price. And, it may or may not be available, vs, being able to arrange free or cheap flights way in advance. There's *one* listing for July for $1,970 on redweek, so, one person can get that rate, no more. But I wanted to go in June for various reasons. It comes down to what is fair to compare, and reasonable. People like to bash points. For me reserving that in DC points, counting 1/20th my total all in purchase price (our expected use period of which some has passed), and MF + portion of the club dues, even beyond 60 days though it is likely in that month we'd be able to rebook, the cost is ~$1,700. If I am able to rebook (almost certain to happen) when I get within 60 days, with DC points mind you those expensive points, my cost will be $1,350 including MF, portion of the club dues, and, portion of purchase price of the points. So, even with my most expensive type of ownership, you would argue I am ahead. And I do believe that myself. In reality, I did extend that trip with weekday points, but traded a lockoff for it, so, my costs are actually much lower than that even.

I reject the notion you cannot be ahead.


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## Shankilicious (Jan 13, 2019)

ljmiii said:


> Maybe it's a 'time of life' thing. My parents have been VERY happy RV'ers for over 20 years now. They started out doing weekend jaunts in the NJ/NY/PA area. Then they retired and turned into snowbirds - three seasons of the year they are home around 3/4 of the time (travelling as far as Maine, Michigan, and Virginia) and then they head south and/or west for Winter.
> 
> Over those 20+ years they have had all of two motorhomes and expect their current one will last them a few more years. It does restrict the type of vehicles you can own - at least one of them has to be 'towable'. And my Dad is 'handy' and does most of the maintenance himself. But overall owning a RV has been a great joy for them.


I know some people have enjoyed theirs. And I know some who do nothing but complain and spend tons on them every year for tune ups and maintenance. To each their own I suppose.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 13, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> So, when you do this comparison, you will always get those who say I can reserve that for less, and maybe they can, sometimes. But that's a different question I believe. So, for example, Phuket Beach Club in June, I see on booking.com a week for $3,009. I see it on marriott.com for ~2,100. From time to time, one might be able to find it on some site somewhere for less, and, they will claim see, you are paying too much. The problem with that line of thinking is it only applies to a small number of people, you cannot fill the place at that price. And, it may or may not be available, vs, being able to arrange free or cheap flights way in advance. There's *one* listing for July for $1,970 on redweek, so, one person can get that rate, no more. But I wanted to go in June for various reasons. It comes down to what is fair to compare, and reasonable. People like to bash points. For me reserving that in DC points, counting 1/20th my total all in purchase price (our expected use period of which some has passed), and MF + portion of the club dues, even beyond 60 days though it is likely in that month we'd be able to rebook, the cost is ~$1,700. If I am able to rebook (almost certain to happen) when I get within 60 days, with DC points mind you those expensive points, my cost will be $1,350 including MF, portion of the club dues, and, portion of purchase price of the points. So, even with my most expensive type of ownership, you would argue I am ahead. And I do believe that myself. In reality, I did extend that trip with weekday points, but traded a lockoff for it, so, my costs are actually much lower than that even.
> 
> I reject the notion you cannot be ahead.



I agree. Where I've had some of the most heated "discussions" here on TUG, is from folks who claim you should never use Marriott.com, booking.com, or other such sites to compare  against your ownership costs. They argue you should only use Redweek.com, VRBO, or other such P2P rental sites. My point is the lower prices from sites are irrelevant to us since we aren't folks who like to do P2P bookings. 

Whenever I do a DC points booking, or even an owned week booking, I'll usually first shop for what the cash cost would be on that date, just to be sure I can't get a better deal with cash. That is then what I'll generally use for my ongoing cost/benefit comparison. Sometimes, I'll look again right before I book airfare, just in case something cheaper has shown up that might change the equation. I don't think that's ever happened. Usually that later cost is higher.


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

Shankilicious said:


> I know some people have enjoyed theirs. And I know some who do nothing but complain and spend tons on them every year for tune ups and maintenance. To each their own I suppose.



We are on our second RV. We loved RVing so much that we sold our first one after 5 years and bought a new top of the line luxury RV. We keep it at the beach and call it our beach condo. The RV resort offers storage and towing so we do not even need to call. Anytime we make a reservation, it automatically gets towed to whatever space we have been assigned. It is hard and expensive to own and maintain beachfront property esp in California due to the high costs of housing and property taxes. Our only expenses are towing ($90 RT), storage ($75 or $80 per month) and maintaining the RV itself (our RVs have not needed much if any repairs but they have all been new but we do get it washed and waxed periodically). There are no property taxes or MFs since we own a share in the beachside RV park in California. Share prices have been going up too so there is some appreciation. It is almost like an RV timeshare actually.


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree. Where I've had some of the most heated "discussions" here on TUG, is from folks who claim you should never use Marriott.com, booking.com, or other such sites to compare  against your ownership costs. They argue you should only use Redweek.com, VRBO, or other such P2P rental sites. My point is the lower prices from sites are irrelevant to us since we aren't folks who like to do P2P bookings.
> 
> Whenever I do a DC points booking, or even an owned week booking, I'll usually first shop for what the cash cost would be on that date, just to be sure I can't get a better deal with cash. That is then what I'll generally use for my ongoing cost/benefit comparison. Sometimes, I'll look again right before I book airfare, just in case something cheaper has shown up that might change the equation. I don't think that's ever happened. Usually that later cost is higher.



I agree with Jim and Steve. I never rent through owners myself on VRBO, AirBnB, Redweek, TUG or elsewhere. This year I have many hotel stays planned and when I do not have enough MR points for a free stay, I book through marriott.com. I think some added benefits that no one mentions include the high status on MR that we get as Presidential level and above. Getting the 75% points bonus and the free suite upgrade is an amazing savings. I think I am saving about $10,000 this year just on my MR point stays in suites at Cat 7+ (i.e. some are soon to be Cat 8).


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## dgf15215 (Jan 13, 2019)

Dean said:


> Let me make a point on the other side.  Anyone that doesn't at least consider the costs is being foolish.



Of course, Dean, cost is a very real consideration in any significant purchase and maybe more so when it comes to entertainment or vacations. The original question asked how we justified our acquisitions on a cost savings equation and quickly the responses went to the matter of value, that many of us look at the overall value to us rather than how we saved money compared to some other option by our purchases. It seems that the responses all pretty much fell into sync on that line of thought.


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## dgf15215 (Jan 13, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Pretty much, the early posts in this thread have nailed it. But if you insist on cost analysis, we did it once on one trip (out of 21 years of trips). We compared the cost we paid for our Australia trip a few years back to what it would have cost without timeshares. So, we included maintenance fees for what we used (3 different TS), airfare, hotel, a portion of our upfront costs to buy the timeshare(s) in question (1/10th), and exchange fees and even the annual DC fee for the II membership. Note we used 1/10th of our upfront costs, which is too much since we've owned for 21 years, but some was purchased later so it was fair. And note this means we consider our resale value as $0 else that number should be reduced as any resale recoups some of that cost (though inflation kills some of that). We considered food a break even since presumably one could have a kitchen without a timeshare, though hotel would have significantly added to the cost. We noted the best prices we could find for equivalent accommodations in the areas we went to. Note that we included airfare. Why you ask, because that's a perk of our ownership. Most view presentations as a labor, hate them, etc. We see it as income, as those pay for our airfare on overseas trips, we've never ever purchased an overseas ticket.
> 
> So, how did it turn out? We were over $10,000 ahead, *on one trip*. Just in accommodations, we were at least 5k ahead (from memory, it's posted somewhere on this site). It was easy to see that we are vastly ahead on our purchase. But we are aggressive users who use all of the tricks to squeeze out the best value we can get. This year, we are heading to Fiji, then on to Brisbane, then on to Thailand. Airfare: $0 (ok $200 in taxes), thanks to presentations. The MF is quite low. And the presentations paid for the Fiji "hotel" stay at Momi Bay also, which is more like a TS. In 2020, we go to Uganda, again, we already have the miles from presentations (had accumulated them for a few years).
> 
> ...




Steve - I really enjoyed the line " . . . forced us to travel." I totally agree although perhaps the term "forcing" is stronger than the reality that we've set ourselves up with a kind of discipline that makes us take advantage of what we've acquired. If only I had such a discipline in my diet . . . oh well, can't have everything <g>.


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## sharewhereMiMi (Jan 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with Dean. While the intrinsic, qualitative benefits and flexibility are real, and are a very important benefit of ownership, we still keep track of the ongoing cost/benefit. The cost-benefit isn't the whole story, but it's a component. I have an Excel spreadsheet that tracks our purchase cost and our annual expenses for maintenance fees, club fees, point rental costs, etc. Against those costs, I offset what the same or substantially similar accommodations would have cost us if we did not own. Since we aren't a "rent from owner" or VRBO type, I compare against sites like Marriott.com and Hilton.com, which is where we always book our accommodations when we aren't using something we own. Each year, our savings compared to the alternative rental cost offsets part of our purchase price.[/QUOTE
> 
> ]
> Re your spreadsheet ..is it one you formulated yourself or a program/app available online?  Thank you for your sharing what works for you, from a new TUG member.


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 13, 2019)

dgf15215 said:


> Steve - I really enjoyed the line " . . . forced us to travel." I totally agree although perhaps the term "forcing" is stronger than the reality that we've set ourselves up with a kind of discipline that makes us take advantage of what we've acquired. If only I had such a discipline in my diet . . . oh well, can't have everything <g>.



I know, it was meant to be a little harsh. More tongue in cheek almost, as in poor us, we have to take vacations! I just know for a fact we would not have taken most of our trips. There is no way we would have been going to Fiji, Brisbane, and Phuket on the same trip.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 13, 2019)

sharewhereMiMi said:


> Re your spreadsheet ..is it one you formulated yourself or a program/app available online? Thank you for your sharing what works for you, from a new TUG member.



I just built it myself in Excel. One column for each year and rows with the relevant costs and benefits, and annual and cumulative totals.


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## vol_90 (Jan 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I just built it myself in Excel. One column for each year and rows with the relevant costs and benefits, and annual and cumulative totals.



I track a very basic cost / benefit analysis going back to 2007 in excel where the cost basis consists of:  Total purchase price Marriott / Resale including closing fees, Maintenance Fees, Club dues, Interval Fees, Redweek membership fees less any Rental proceeds.

My "financial" benefit is a conservative value on the room rate for the number of nights at a resort.

Our breakeven point excluding the time value of money will be in 2020.

I do enjoy being forced to plan multiple vacations a year.


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## Fairwinds (Jan 14, 2019)

I think the conversation is a bit circular but very interesting. I’m sure that everyone does some sort of CBA even though some use more qualitative over quantitative factors. A thorough  analysis of value includes both. However, I view my ownership as the cost of vacationing the way I want to vacation. I don’t compare to vacation home ownership, VRBO, cruising, RVs, or hotels and resorts as they are as different as can be. I don’t even compare to other timeshare systems because I’m where I want to be. Of course I occasionally consider whether my recurring costs continue to satisfy my needs but not from a break even, turn a profit or could I do it a different way perspective. I admire the practicality of those who do the deep dive but I’m afraid if I did it I’d be vacationing at the pup tent resort in my back yard. I’m taking a stand here and amending my signature.
Cheers


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## Dean (Jan 14, 2019)

dgf15215 said:


> Of course, Dean, cost is a very real consideration in any significant purchase and maybe more so when it comes to entertainment or vacations. The original question asked how we justified our acquisitions on a cost savings equation and quickly the responses went to the matter of value, that many of us look at the overall value to us rather than how we saved money compared to some other option by our purchases. It seems that the responses all pretty much fell into sync on that line of thought.


Basically my opinion is there is a cost and value component and one needs to consider both.  There can be no real value without a reasonable cost for the situation and no matter how much the savings, one needs to get a value and enjoyment beyond just the costs.  But it can be more of one than the other and for us, each system presents a different combination.  Our Bluegreen gives us the best savings, Marriott the best value and DVC is a specialty option.  But to pay more than one could do the same basic thing OOP on a consistent basis makes no sense.  But one needs to look at a big picture, not just a given year or trip.


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## elaine (Jan 14, 2019)

For all of my timeshares, I do a simple formula: capital outlay-realistic resale price (could even be zero)/years of anticipated usage (I tend to use 20) + annual fee - cost of lodging that I would have rented.
Lodging that I would have rented doesn't mean Marriott, if I would not have paid $3700 for the week and would have stayed at no-name instead for $2k.
Then I add in the qualitative amount (say $250-$1K) of staying at a Marriott, better amenities (if picking no-name to compare), etc. and get my cost comparision.  I do the same with II and RCI trades. If I traded into a higher value property, I add that savings to the pot to offset a year that I didn't get as much value. For example, we once traded (an non-Marriott) via RCI into a $3K Bermuda unit for about $1200 of our "cost." I added $1800 on my plus side of running total.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 14, 2019)

Dean said:


> Let me make a point on the other side.  Anyone that doesn't at least consider the costs is being foolish.



I'll grant you that point but by what metric should we be measuring it? 

I have no idea what the breakeven would be on our three Marriott Weeks and have no desire to try to figure it out. (Math.) My thinking has always been that after years of NOT forcing ourselves to get away on vacation every year, owning timeshares does exactly that. As far as the financials, I'm okay with the costs as long as our budget allows for them.


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## KarenP (Jan 14, 2019)

I paid $1500 for our two bedroom, Florida Club, gold season Grand Vista I think in 2008.  I've been able to lock off and get two, at least two bedroom villas in various Marriott locations since then.   Some even three bedroom.  Maintenance fees are $1350 this year (about).  $1500/ 10 years = $150 per year.  $1350/2 villas = $675 per villa per week, or $96/night.  I'm way ahead.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 14, 2019)

We treat how we exchange and use each property differently (note: these are not Marriott's, but the method should still apply):

*Unit Will Sell For Close To What We Paid So BE Doesn't Matter: *We purchased resale (OF Maui Vistana) which we will eventually sell for close to what we paid so BE doesn't matter much. (Prices have actually increased by $1 - 2k since we purchased resale.) Managing MF use and competitive purchase price is most important.  Ensuring that we are either using the unit (MF is much less $ than rent) or trading for higher than MF is most important.  If we include the purchase price, we hit BE year 3 vs. renting this unit.  If we don't include the purchase price, we hit BE year one because the MF is significantly lower than renting the unit (and we could sell the unit for about the same price as we purchased.)  The adage "location, location, location" really matters in this scenario because you expect this unit to hold or be close to its value when you sell. Examples include: DVC, Maui OF (MOC OF, WKORV north and south OF.)

*Make Lemonade - Maximize Return Toward BE: *We have developer unit (our first TS purchase) which at this point is a sunk cost so maximizing our future return is all that matters. In hindsight we should have purchased resale, however we are now making lemonade! We only stay at this expensive property or exchange it for other expensive properties so we always know that we are using those expensive points in a way that saves us rent for the same type of unit. This unit also includes a free breakfast and evening appetizer/drink lounge so we save on food in expensive NYC.  We also sign up for as many heavily discounted VIP and bounceback stays, and use last minute cash discounts (in the HGVC system) to maximize our return and stretch our ownership. This unit also gives us several perks such as unlimited free reservations for our low cost trader units so these cost savings add up; last year we saved over $1000 in reservation fees alone. Although this purchase is a sunk cost, we are maximizing our return every time we use it toward BE.

*Bought Inexpensive Resale So BE Doesn't Matter: *We have an inexpensive Vegas resale "trader" unit with a < $1000 MF that we purchased for less than $5k in the HGVC system.  We will probably give it away in the end, but we are getting fantastic trades worth at least 2x the MF. I don't need a spreadsheet to figure out the return on this one.  If we give it away in 10 or 20 years we are still way ahead with < $5k at risk which translates to < $250/year after 20 years.  We are saving many times more than $250 in rental fees every year with a 2 bdrm week, or 13 days in a one bdrm, or one month in a studio in HI for less than $1000.

For example, we just traded for a 3 bdrm OV penthouse in the Hilton Hawaiian Village July 4 weekend.  The unit rents for almost $5000 a day.  We recouped our buy-in price plus $1000 MF in just one trade.  Plus we still have 2200 extra HGVC points to trade for a ski studio or Cabo 1 bdrm for 5 days.  Although we were lucky to get this trade, you can see how the returns can vary.

Lastly, compared to developer prices we are saving a bundle with our resale purchases for high quality vacations.


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## ljmiii (Jan 14, 2019)

Why determining BE/ROI on my MVCI timeshare purchase is difficult at best - part II

I'm currently hiding from the midday sun in the Aruba Marriott Resort on the last day of my 'free' vacation - courtesy of MRPs accumulated mainly because of MVCI and transmogrified into a 5 night hotel+air package. More problematically (and thanks to the Platinum Premier Elite status MVCI gives me), I am in the nicest non-suite room in the hotel (not just nicest category) after they upgraded me from their lowest category room (the only one 'bookable' by points). And I've enjoyed 'free' $50 breakfasts every morning and numerous discounts during my stay. Meanwhile, my MVCI status gave me United Airlines status which got me an upgrade to first (one way) and priority access/boarding the other way.

How do I 'unpack' any of this and what should I compare it to?  I normally take a 4-5 day vacation somewhere warm in January. I certainly could have gone somewhere cheaper than the Aruba Marriott...or more expensive for that matter. The same goes for the airfare.

Do I use the price of the Limited View room I booked or the Premium Ocean View room I received? And how do I quantify getting the highest, most ocean-y, shaded OV room? How do I factor in the ability to do a 5 night hotel+air when without MVCI I couldn't buy the hotel+air package. And how many mornings would I have splurged on the $50 breakfast vs the cheaper but less healthy and satisfying Starbucks option. Do I compare to First Class airfare (one way)?  Do I factor in the price of United's Premier Access package the other way? All fun questions...


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## csalter2 (Jan 14, 2019)

4\.


ljmiii said:


> Why determining BE/ROI on my MVCI timeshare purchase is difficult at best - part II
> 
> I'm currently hiding from the midday sun in the Aruba Marriott Resort on the last day of my 'free' vacation - courtesy of MRPs accumulated mainly because of MVCI and transmogrified into a 5 night hotel+air package. More problematically (and thanks to the Platinum Premier Elite status MVCI gives me), I am in the nicest non-suite room in the hotel (not just nicest category) after they upgraded me from their lowest category room (the only one 'bookable' by points). And I've enjoyed 'free' $50 breakfasts every morning and numerous discounts during my stay. Meanwhile, my MVCI status gave me United Airlines status which got me an upgrade to first (one way) and priority access/boarding the other way.
> 
> ...



That is exactly my point! These are the types of things that some people don’t take into account and don’t believe you should take these into account.  However, if your purchase provides you with these perks, why not? If you bought a developer purchase that takes you to Chairman or Presidential level and you travel a lot and you are able to take advantage of airline upgrades and hotel upgrades because of it, then those should be included in your cost analysis.  Why do some people disagree with that? This is not about justifying a purchase. This is about trying to put financial value on a product.


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## sun starved Gayle (Jan 14, 2019)

Katfan said:


> As my DH says ownership really makes you plan vacations you may never have taken without the incentive to use your weeks/points.



Your DH hit the nail right on the head with this one !


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## Swice (Jan 14, 2019)

A slightly different twist to what others have said:

I think of the money in two piles...  my upfront costs and my annual costs.    
1.   For the sake of easy discussion:     20-years ago I bought my first unit for $20,000.    Divide that out and that comes out to $1,000 a year (and that number will continue to slide down)
2.   My annual costs are my MF, Interval/club dues, etc.       Obviously those costs keep rising.    But for the sake of discussion, my cost this year is $1,500.    (thanks hurricane)

So in very simple terms, my total costs for one week of timeshare vacation is $2,500.       

The question is, would I spend $2,500 this summer for seven nights at Myrtle Beach?        The Marriott Hotel next door to Oceanwatch is an easy $225/night (more if you include parking) for ONE BASIC ROOM.   
Where else could I get the space, the kitchen, the multiple pools, sports courts, gym, a few popcorn and ice cream treats and easy beach access for $2,500?        Yes there are houses I could rent, but they wouldn't have the list of amenities and would be a walk/drive to the beach... and I bet the furniture would be 20-years old.   

Factor in the years when we've used Interval certificates and/or getaways (we've gone to Orlando for as little as $199!) and our one week costs really shoot down.   Shoot, even a Fairfield Inn in Orlando is $100 a night (more with taxes!).  

I think the "value" really shoots up when you can use a certificate or getaway (admittedly the certificates have been more restrictive and less useful to us in recent years).   

Timeshares have allowed us to vacation at nicer places and more exotic locations than we normally would have.    (Hawaii, Scotland, France, Spain, multiple California & Florida etc)


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 14, 2019)

My cost for this year, including all MF used, all DC points MF, II club dues, taxes, and a portion of my ownership upfront costs (as mentioned earlier in this thread), for 72 currently arranged nights is $141 per night. Thanks to Jims suggestion of his spreadsheet. And that's only part of the value. Add in free airfare to Fiji, Australia, and, Thailand, and a free 5 nights in Fiji and it's trivial to see how much ahead I am for the year. I don't understand why people think you can't come out ahead. If you add up the cost to do all those trips without a timeshare it would be several times what I am paying.


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## Dean (Jan 14, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I'll grant you that point but by what metric should we be measuring it?
> 
> I have no idea what the breakeven would be on our three Marriott Weeks and have no desire to try to figure it out. (Math.) My thinking has always been that after years of NOT forcing ourselves to get away on vacation every year, owning timeshares does exactly that. As far as the financials, I'm okay with the costs as long as our budget allows for them.


As I stated, I consider up front costs including the TVM and yearly costs compared to what I would have spent and/or what I could do the trip on cash in similar options.  DVC is easy to compare because room prices are readily available and it's easy to both rent to stay and rent out if needed.  But there are other factors including control and the quality of the resorts in question though these can be taken into account on the $$$ side if looking at like for like or a direct rental for the same option.  The other factor which has been alluded to here but if it was spelled out, I missed it, is the risk down the road.  The maintenance fees represent risk long term even after passing.


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## csalter2 (Jan 14, 2019)

Please tell me if I am misguided in my thinking here with this analogy.  If one owns an American Express Platinum card, they pay $550 per year for the card. However, by having the card they have access to airport lounges, the card will pay for TSA Pre-Check and Global Entry, you get credit for airline charges like baggage fees, you get insurance on rental vehicles, gold status with Hilton and Starwood, etc. If you are doing a lot of traveling and you’re flipping the bill, you may find lots of value from this card. It could save you lots of money particularly when you have to stay in the airport quite a bit.  The key to getting the full value of the benefits is by using them. If don’t use the benefits, then the $550 is a waste.  

In my opinion, when you buy your timeshare and you gain lots of perks,  then it is going to move you toward a positive cash flow. Yes, I put money out front, but if I am going to have to use some of the perks anyway and I can save on them, then the value of that perk is well worth the money spent initially.  With our timeshares, the money put up front can pay off gradually in a major way, and sometimes it won’t be gradual. The room upgrades are very great perks, the price reductions on hotel rooms are good, and other Marriott Rewards perks are great additions to your pockets.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 14, 2019)

Fairwinds said:


> I admire the practicality of those who do the deep dive but I’m afraid if I did it I’d be vacationing at the pup tent resort in my back yard.
> Cheers




This.

Nothing will financially beat vacationing in your back yard in a pup tent, however the quality of vacation will be drastically better.  Good to have an eye on financials, but if financials is your only motivation for buying a timeshare, then you should not bother and staycation.


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## Luvtoride (Jan 14, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> My cost for this year, including all MF used, all DC points MF, II club dues, taxes, and a portion of my ownership upfront costs (as mentioned earlier in this thread), for 72 currently arranged nights is $141 per night. Thanks to Jims suggestion of his spreadsheet. And that's only part of the value. Add in free airfare to Fiji, Australia, and, Thailand, and a free 5 nights in Fiji and it's trivial to see how much ahead I am for the year. I don't understand why people think you can't come out ahead. If you add up the cost to do all those trips without a timeshare it would be several times what I am paying.


Well put, Steve.  The people who "think you can't come out ahead" are the ones who don't take the time to understand the usage options and don't plan their vacations far in advance to take advantage of the options we have available.  We have friends who we got into the Marriott system and come to us with questions like..."how do we go about selling one of our weeks?" and "two of our weeks expired in II, what do we do now?".  I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about reading TUG BBS and offering to help them plan their vacation usage, but it does no good!  
I consider the time that many of us invest here in TUG to add the most valuable to our TS ownership in terms to upfront costs and maximizing use options.  

So on an unrelated note, good friends of ours are planning a trip to Cuba for next year and invited us to go along.  Does anyone have any good tips on utilizing TS (are there any) or Marriott Hotels there?  I will post this in the "Vacation Travel Information" section.  
Thanks.


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## TravelTime (Jan 14, 2019)

ljmiii said:


> Why determining BE/ROI on my MVCI timeshare purchase is difficult at best - part II
> 
> I'm currently hiding from the midday sun in the Aruba Marriott Resort on the last day of my 'free' vacation - courtesy of MRPs accumulated mainly because of MVCI and transmogrified into a 5 night hotel+air package. More problematically (and thanks to the Platinum Premier Elite status MVCI gives me), I am in the nicest non-suite room in the hotel (not just nicest category) after they upgraded me from their lowest category room (the only one 'bookable' by points). And I've enjoyed 'free' $50 breakfasts every morning and numerous discounts during my stay. Meanwhile, my MVCI status gave me United Airlines status which got me an upgrade to first (one way) and priority access/boarding the other way.
> 
> ...



The upgraded status and perks that come with Marriott Rewards Platinum Premiere status are worth a lot to me. It was one of the primary reasons I decided to move to Presidential level. I am glad you are mentioning this benefit because most Tuggers are not factoring it in.

This year, we are staying in suites in many Cat 7 (soon to be Cat 8) resorts for free. I have booked 9 free nights so far at the Cat 7 resorts as well as a paid stay for business. On average, a suite at a Cat 7/8 resort (Ritz, St Regis, W, Luxury Collection, etc) costs about $1000+ per night. Even the upgraded guest rooms at the locations and resorts where we are staying would be in the $600-$800 range. I would use the value of the upgraded room as my metric.

Then there is the unquantifiable benefit I get when enjoying these perks. As you mentioned, free breakfast, use of club lounges, 4 pm checkout, 75% bonus on stays, etc.


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## bazzap (Jan 14, 2019)

Luvtoride said:


> Well put, Steve.  The people who "think you can't come out ahead" are the ones who don't take the time to understand the usage options and don't plan their vacations far in advance to take advantage of the options we have available.  We have friends who we got into the Marriott system and come to us with questions like..."how do we go about selling one of our weeks?" and "two of our weeks expired in II, what do we do now?".  I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about reading TUG BBS and offering to help them plan their vacation usage, but it does no good!
> I consider the time that many of us invest here in TUG to add the most valuable to our TS ownership in terms to upfront costs and maximizing use options.
> 
> So on an unrelated note, good friends of ours are planning a trip to Cuba for next year and invited us to go along.  Does anyone have any good tips on utilizing TS (are there any) or Marriott Hotels there?  I will post this in the "Vacation Travel Information" section.
> Thanks.


I believe the only Marriott presence in Cuba is the Four Points by Sheraton
https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/havfp-four-points-havana/


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 14, 2019)

+1 Tuggers work the system to stretch their ownership and maximize return so they end up ahead. Sadly many TS buyers remain ignorant about what they own and find equal or lower value relative to renting because they forget to use, or do not reserve peak times etc.


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## suzannesimon (Jan 14, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I would like some assistance in trying to figure out how to determine when has broken even on had on their timeshare purchase.  What strategies do you utilize to determine that you have saved money and it has been worth your purchase?
> 
> Can one look at equivalent accommodations and and start looking at those savings over maintenance fees and add that to the recouping of the original purchase?
> 
> ...



I keep a close watch on this. My goal is to meet breakeven by the time I’m 80, God willing.  I rent a lot of my weeks. I have 10 in total. I have my purchase price plus maintenance costs on one side of my Excel sheet and my “benefit” on the right.  If I Rent  it, I put it on the right. If I use it, I count the fair market rent and also enter it on the right.  When the right side equals or exceeds the left, that’s my breakeven.  I’ll probably never break even with my weeks purchased from Marriott. After 11 years, I have just covered 53% of the cost of those. The fact that MFC was closed last year due to the hurricane doesn’t help. The 2 resale weeks I have at Harborside at Atlantis broke even last year after 5 years.


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 14, 2019)

Since the idea was to see if one was saving over just renting, and since a benefit of TS ownership is my flights, one must add the cost of those flights to the cost of not having a TS. Or, one could choose to subtract it from the ts end, doesn't matter, either way dollar difference is dollar difference. So, if I subtract 2 flights to Fiji ($1,000 each) and 2 flights to Phuket ($450 each) and 2 flights back home ($800 each) from my TS costs for the year, I come out including upfront costs at $78.52 per night for 72 nights! And as csalter2 mentioned, that's not even considering other benefits of ownership. Like the likelihood I will get suite upgrades in Fiji, 2 upgrades at that (likely rental cost of the stay will be $600/night, I am paying $0). I know, unfair to consider that on the TS side. But no matter, if I would have rented and paid for flights, the math is identical, those are costs added to the rental side and the difference between rental and owning remains the same to the penny.

I realize some will disagree with considering those extra benefits, but, csalter2 gives a perfect analogy and I totally agree with him. I have never looked back and thought gee, I wasted money. And I even bought half of my portfolio at developer prices. Still way ahead. Not even close.

Thanks JimInNC, your spreadsheet stimulated my thought on this and allowed me to calculate this year without much effort. It solidified my belief that I am not sorry at all.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 14, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Since the idea was to see if one was saving over just renting, and since a benefit of TS ownership is my flights, one must add the cost of those flights to the cost of not having a TS. Or, one could choose to subtract it from the ts end, doesn't matter, either way dollar difference is dollar difference. So, if I subtract 2 flights to Fiji ($1,000 each) and 2 flights to Phuket ($450 each) and 2 flights back home ($800 each) from my TS costs for the year, I come out including upfront costs at $78.52 per night for 72 nights! And as csalter2 mentioned, that's not even considering other benefits of ownership. Like the likelihood I will get suite upgrades in Fiji, 2 upgrades at that (likely rental cost of the stay will be $600/night, I am paying $0). I know, unfair to consider that on the TS side. But no matter, if I would have rented and paid for flights, the math is identical, those are costs added to the rental side and the difference between rental and owning remains the same to the penny.
> 
> I realize some will disagree with considering those extra benefits, but, csalter2 gives a perfect analogy and I totally agree with him. I have never looked back and thought gee, I wasted money. And I even bought half of my portfolio at developer prices. Still way ahead. Not even close.
> 
> Thanks JimInNC, your spreadsheet stimulated my thought on this and allowed me to calculate this year without much effort. It solidified my belief that I am not sorry at all.




You have mentioned that your ownership has given you free airfare, and that much of that comes from going to presentations. I'm assuming what you mean by that is you take Marriott Rewards points as your "gift" and have used them to generate frequent flyer miles in your chosen airlines. Can you estimate how many Rewards points you've earned in this manner and how many presentations you had to endure to get that many?


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## Steve Fatula (Jan 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> You have mentioned that your ownership has given you free airfare, and that much of that comes from going to presentations. I'm assuming what you mean by that is you take Marriott Rewards points as your "gift" and have used them to generate frequent flyer miles in your chosen airlines. Can you estimate how many Rewards points you've earned in this manner and how many presentations you had to endure to get that many?



I sure can, I know most people hate those so that's up to them. We don't mind at all. In 21 years, I would estimate we've gone to 50 presentations, fewer early on and more now. I would say a fair average has been 20,000 points per presentation as I simply don't recall what we used to get in the early 2000's likely I am under guessing, some less, some more (got several 30,000 lately). So, that's 1,000,000 MR points. Of course, that's just presentations, you are aware that CC charges of MF (we pay no interest of course) give 6x, used to be 5x, your MF. That's quite a few MR points over the years as well, no idea what that might come to but as a guess, maybe an average of 15,000 per year (less early on since we owned less, much more now), so, say another 300,000 points from MF. Obviously, I am not saying that the more you charge the more you gain, just saying some does come back. This does not include MR points we got for a couple of TS purchases. None of those would we get if we were not owners. Plus MR points from stays (other purchases while there), that I can't even fathom to guess. But I would imagine close to 1.5 million MR points just between those. Add in several new customer signups, bonuses, etc., and I am sure we've topped more than 2 million MR points not even counting spending, directly related to TS only. But spending of course you could do without owning so I do not consider that. We only use MR points for packages, as that gives the best miles benefit. Of course, those are more expensive now but we redeemed a ton of miles last year before the increase. But they also were a lot less early on, and we initially received 300,000 MR points in 1999 for the purchase where those went a long way of course (I recall at least 2 travel packages with I think some points remaining I think they used to be back then 125k MR points?) and we took our first trip to Australia that way almost entirely for "free". And we only use miles for overseas flights where you get the most bang for the mile. After our trip to Uganda in 2020, we will likely be out of points for a few years. But, we will have hit our major foreign travel goals as well. 

Yes, I realize one can do presentations without being an owner, but it's not the same. You have to get there, it's short, you do incur costs and you do not make one cent. When you are there already on a stay, there is no additional cost. So, it is definitely a "perk" if you can tolerate them. Or, you can consider them punishments as many do. 

But there is no way I would ever consider them punishments given the amount of money we have earned off of them. The math might have changed now with the MR changes, will have to figure that out moving forward as far as what is the best thing to take in return for sitting through one. But going back in time, just the value of those MR points (timeshare related only) and nothing else has probably ending up giving us a value of $30k (more in the old days, less now). So, by itself, it paid for much of what we own even at developer prices (paid for DSV2 and Playa Andaluza purchases). So, when I compute our cost/night, I always know that the actual cost is much lower due to this. The only remaining purchase we had were a minimal # of points when DC program came out, and, a higher number of very cheap resale points. 

But this obviously gets harder and harder to figure as there are so many considerations. The reality is, it would have been impossible for us to travel as much as we have if we had not spent the money, don't need to calculate to know that. And, it is not cheaper (for us) to rent, no possible way this can be true. And we have never had an interest of staying at the same place over and over, that's just not us (other than DSV2). We want to go somewhere different all the time.

I don't think this is as easily replicated today though, things are more expensive than they used to be. But ownership even at developer prices, is likely the best thing I have ever spent money on. But obviously, one has to make a fair effort to squeeze value. But I am retired, so, it's my salary now (saving), lol


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## TravelTime (Jan 14, 2019)

Racking up Marriott Rewards points as a Presidential MVC DP timeshare owner is not that hard. In one year, we earned over 600,000 MR points. So Steve’s estimate of 2 million points in 21 years is probably underestimating by a huge margin.


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## Fasttr (Jan 14, 2019)

I go on vacation so I can get away from spreadsheets!!!


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## SMB1 (Jan 14, 2019)

suzannesimon said:


> I keep a close watch on this. My goal is to meet breakeven by the time I’m 80, God willing.  I rent a lot of my weeks. I have 10 in total. I have my purchase price plus maintenance costs on one side of my Excel sheet and my “benefit” on the right.  If I Rent  it, I put it on the right. If I use it, I count the fair market rent and also enter it on the right.  When the right side equals or xceeds the left, that’s my breakeven.  I’ll probably never break even with my weeks purchased from Marriott. After 11 years, I have just covered 53% of the cost of those. The fact that MFC was closed last year due to the hurricane doesn’t help. The 2 resale weeks I have at Harborside at Atlantis broke even last year after 5 years.



This seems like a CBA I can make sense of.  Typically things like ROI, CBA, Depreciating value, etc. make my head spin.  However, even I could do this.  Don't get me wrong, I won't, but I could.  I wouldn't want to try to do it retroactively for the past 11 years.  But, using this as a concept I can quickly do some math, and feel even better about my purchases than I did ten minutes ago, and I was very happy with my purchase qualitatively and have chosen not to think about it quantitatively.  

I have three Marriott weeks, 5000 DP points, and 206,000 Club Wyndham points all purchased from developer.  We also have one resale Marriott.  We have paid A LOT of money up front.  We have also taken many great vacations that we never would have taken without ownership.  Through the years we're probably close to a net even MF vs rental income.  Last year we were a few thousand ahead.  2019 we will prob be $2000 behind.  If I can continue to do this for the next several years until I retire I'll be feeling pretty good about the idea of a break even point.  At that point we will be able to take advantage of shoulder season and get many weeks with our "6 weeks" of ownership.  

Like Steve and Carlito I've always considered week long stays in Waikiki, San Francisco, Nashville, and 3/4/5 night stays in Myrtle beach, Boston, NYC, and this summer Kauai, etc including flights for a family of 4 for several trips to be part of the benefits I would (hypothetically) put on the right side of this sheet.  These alone are many, many thousand dollars worth of benefit, timeshare stays notwithstanding.  This is harder to qualify.  Where do gifts, and incentive points end and credit card and nights stayed earned points/mile begin.  It's fuzzy.  But I can tell you we wouldn't be earning these points by any means if we didn't start timesharing and reading TUG many years ago.  For me they are a result, direct and indirect, of timesharing.  So do they belong in the break even calculation?  I don't know.  But I count them.


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## jmhpsu93 (Jan 14, 2019)

You could also just save a ton of money and just stay home.  

We own timeshares in two companies:

Golden Shores:  we went on honeymoon to Cancun in 2001 and stayed at the Crown Paradise Club and loved it.  Went back every year, first as a couple and then with our baby and then toddler daugher.  For the first five years no one approached us (which we thought strange).  Finally in 2006 (about a year after Wilma trashed Cancun) we finally were invited to a presentation.  Our rep told us "look, if you're not going to use this resort, don't bother - the trade value is a joke.  We want you to stay here"   We toured a 1 BR and 2 BR ocean front suite with a wrap-around balcony and we were totally sold.  Cost was about $10K and then $600/year maintenance. This is an all-inclusive resort so there is a daily fee for that too (child was free until 13YO).  We also got a couple of incentives like a free stay and a free all-inclusive week (all-in probably worth $1500).  We used those incentives to do a 15-day stay there which might have been the best vacation ever.  LIke Marriott they changed to a point system in 2010 and we would up enrolling our week (at a cost of course), but they gave use over 400 points (1 pt = hotel room, 2 pt = 1 BR, 3 pt = 2 BR) and it eliminated maintenance fees.  We only pay for the all-inclusive fee.  We've been there close to 25 times over the past 18 years and we have ZERO regrets.  There are some staff members that are still there from our honeymoon and we are like family to them (and vice versa).  Not sure how you put a value on that.

Marriott:  newbie here but have been kicking the tires for a couple of years.  I'm an all-in Marriott w%ore for work travel so the combined effect of that an being in MVCI really multiplies the benefits, so this was kind of a no brainer for us.

The real value for us is the forced vacations that we would've otherwise not taken, or had done what everyone else in Maryland does and go "downy oshun" to Ocean City MD for a week or two (at $3K+ a clip for just the room).  We actually did the math and it was cheaper, including airfare, to go to Cancun for a week than drive 3 hours to OC.  Having a suite or condo vs. just a hotel room is really a game changer for family travel.


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## jmhpsu93 (Jan 14, 2019)

And it's funny - you tell someone that you're going on vacation and that you have a timeshare there and they say "Oh..." and you reply cheefully "we go every year and love it" and their head just explodes.


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## marriottdude (Apr 24, 2022)

I looked for this thread to re-read it as I was in Marco for Spring Break the last week of March. I was in a gulf front 2br, and maintenance fees were about $4,700 for the 7500 DP point (give or take, can't exactly remember) it "cost" me for the week. Out of curiosity, I looked at what the JW Marriott and Hilton were charging. The JW was about $700 a room, so for 2 rooms plus taxes for seven nights, it would have been around $11,700 or so.  The Hilton was about the same. I wouldn't be able to afford a vacation at those prices and certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it as much (no kitchen, washer/dryer, living room, etc). I checked rates for next spring break and they are even higher. 

I guess my point was it made me realize this was a pretty good investment, and breakeven or not, I'm getting a great vacation for a price that's far below what hotel people pay (I know, I know, everyone knows this, but it was helpful to do the comparison in today's market). I imagine others have similar comparisons.


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## TravelTime (Apr 24, 2022)

marriottdude said:


> I looked for this thread to re-read it as I was in Marco for Spring Break the last week of March. I was in a gulf front 2br, and maintenance fees were about $4,700 for the 7500 DP point (give or take, can't exactly remember) it "cost" me for the week. Out of curiosity, I looked at what the JW Marriott and Hilton were charging. The JW was about $700 a room, so for 2 rooms plus taxes for seven nights, it would have been around $11,700 or so.  The Hilton was about the same. I wouldn't be able to afford a vacation at those prices and certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it as much (no kitchen, washer/dryer, living room, etc). I checked rates for next spring break and they are even higher.
> 
> I guess my point was it made me realize this was a pretty good investment, and breakeven or not, I'm getting a great vacation for a price that's far below what hotel people pay (I know, I know, everyone knows this, but it was helpful to do the comparison in today's market). I imagine others have similar comparisons.



Also, if you look at Marco outside of high season, it is close to half the points, which is a great deal.

Out of curiosity, I just looked at June of this year. At the JW Marriott in a gulf front suite, it is $16,000+ for a week. Looks like it is a 1BR with separate living room but no kitchen or washer/dryer. It says occupancy is 2 people age 21+. Size is 611-909 sf. I decided to look at June since we might visit MVC Marco next June. I did not see any other rooms available.

I just checked next year in last week of March. A hotel room with pool and partial gulf course view at JW Marriott is $6778 per week.

I usually compare my cost with MVC to the hotel costs since I used to stay in hotels before I bought into MVC.


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## marriottdude (Apr 24, 2022)

That would make the difference between the JW and the Crystal Shores even greater given the fewer points required that time of year. I guess that many people paying that much money on a hotel room kinda boggles my mind, but I guess they would say the same about us making significant timeshare investments.


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## TravelTime (Apr 24, 2022)

marriottdude said:


> That would make the difference between the JW and the Crystal Shores even greater given the fewer points required that time of year. I guess that many people paying that much money on a hotel room kinda boggles my mind, but I guess they would say the same about us making significant timeshare investments.



If we had not discovered timeshares, we would be the people paying $5000+ per week. LOL


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## suzannesimon (Apr 24, 2022)

marriottdude said:


> I looked for this thread to re-read it as I was in Marco for Spring Break the last week of March. I was in a gulf front 2br, and maintenance fees were about $4,700 for the 7500 DP point (give or take, can't exactly remember) it "cost" me for the week. Out of curiosity, I looked at what the JW Marriott and Hilton were charging. The JW was about $700 a room, so for 2 rooms plus taxes for seven nights, it would have been around $11,700 or so.  The Hilton was about the same. I wouldn't be able to afford a vacation at those prices and certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it as much (no kitchen, washer/dryer, living room, etc). I checked rates for next spring break and they are even higher.
> 
> I guess my point was it made me realize this was a pretty good investment, and breakeven or not, I'm getting a great vacation for a price that's far below what hotel people pay (I know, I know, everyone knows this, but it was helpful to do the comparison in today's market). I imagine others have similar comparisons.


I use
I add my purchase price and maintenance fees and deduct the rental income when I get it or use fair market rent when I use it. When I get to zero, I think I’ve won.


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## gdstuart (Apr 24, 2022)

Steve Fatula said:


> .
> .
> 
> We see it as income, as those pay for our airfare on overseas trips, we've never ever purchased an overseas ticket.
> ...


What presentations do you attend that give you enough miles (any miles, for that matter) to pay for overseas flights?  I get a free dinner or maybe a $100 prepaid Visa card.

Sign me up!

Geoff


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## gdstuart (Apr 25, 2022)

I'm scheduled for a presentation tomorrow morning at Marriott Pulse VC San Diego and this thread had me chuckling when I realized that the only time I resort to this sort of math is when I have to beat back the salespersons' "Timeshare Math", which is always faulty.  I enjoy the intellectual exercise.

Much has changed since we first bought our Fairfield Williamsburg week in about 1985 and proceeded to take our three sons around the world.  The value proposition has changed drastically with VRBO, airbnb, Cragislist, home exchanges, fat credit card signup bonuses, the blogosphere, 5/24 calculators, suite upgrades, etc.  We gave away and sold all our timeshare weeks because it's really getting hard to justify those ever-increasing maintenance costs.  In our retirement years, we are banking some serious points in Amex, Marriott, Hilton, IHG, American Airlines, Avios, United, etc. and stringing together some serious itineraries we'd never be able to do with timeshares.  The credit card game is fun and rewarding and does not harm your credit score if done right.  My wife and I have 18 active cards and both our scores are in the high 700's/low 800's depending on which scoring model is being queried.  Those annual fees are piddly compared to the timeshare maint fees we were able to shed.


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## DanCali (Apr 25, 2022)

marriottdude said:


> I looked for this thread to re-read it as I was in Marco for Spring Break the last week of March. I was in a gulf front 2br, and maintenance fees were about $4,700 for the 7500 DP point (give or take, can't exactly remember) it "cost" me for the week. Out of curiosity, I looked at what the JW Marriott and Hilton were charging. The JW was about $700 a room, so for 2 rooms plus taxes for seven nights, it would have been around $11,700 or so.  The Hilton was about the same. I wouldn't be able to afford a vacation at those prices and certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it as much (no kitchen, washer/dryer, living room, etc). I checked rates for next spring break and they are even higher.
> 
> I guess my point was it made me realize this was a pretty good investment, and breakeven or not, I'm getting a great vacation for a price that's far below what hotel people pay (I know, I know, everyone knows this, but it was helpful to do the comparison in today's market). I imagine others have similar comparisons.




While I realize everyone has different way of looking at things, I think this viewpoint fails to fully recognize the renting alternative. Your alternative is not just to rent from the JW or Hilton, but you also probably had the option to rent on Redweek the exact room you stayed in (and I realize that view category may not always be available but if it's a popular week, odds are it will pop up). I don't know what the rental price would be - maybe $6000, maybe $8000 - but it wouldn't close to $11,700.


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## marriottdude (Apr 25, 2022)

Fair point.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 25, 2022)

gdstuart said:


> What presentations do you attend that give you enough miles (any miles, for that matter) to pay for overseas flights?  I get a free dinner or maybe a $100 prepaid Visa card.
> 
> Sign me up!
> 
> Geoff


Any and all Marriott. 40,000 Bonvoy points times some number of them per year adds up fast. Though last trip we got 600 destinations points instead as we needed them.


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## sox21 (Apr 25, 2022)

I tracked mine and reached break even somewhere between 7-9 years. No financing so I calculated cost + maint. fees. I then found the value of my reservation by using the Marriott website to book the same room for the same time and deducted this from the costs.


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## Dean (Apr 25, 2022)

sox21 said:


> I tracked mine and reached break even somewhere between 7-9 years. No financing so I calculated cost + maint. fees. I then found the value of my reservation by using the Marriott website to book the same room for the same time and deducted this from the costs.


Did you use discounted rates?  If not it would give you a falsely early time frame on break even.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 25, 2022)

Dean said:


> Did you use discounted rates?  If not it would give you a falsely early time frame on break even.


I wouldn't use Marriott's discounted rental rates.  Instead, I would use the cost of renting a timeshare week from an owner -- because that's what you are getting:  a seven day reservation which cannot be cancelled at the last minute and which is pretty inflexible if you need to change the date at the end.


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## TravelTime (Apr 26, 2022)

I do not compare to renting on Redweek for many reasons. I would stay in a hotel if I did not use my timeshare. I do not like renting from an owner because it is much less flexible in many ways. I agree that a timeshare to hotel comparison is not apples to apples.


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## Dean (Apr 26, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> I wouldn't use Marriott's discounted rental rates.  Instead, I would use the cost of renting a timeshare week from an owner -- because that's what you are getting:  a seven day reservation which cannot be cancelled at the last minute and which is pretty inflexible if you need to change the date at the end.


I agree, that would not be my personal metric either but for someone who's already using that method, I would at least use the discounted rates.  I've dealt with this question a lot over the years though mostly with DVC.  My view is that there are only 2 good metrics, what you could rent the same thing (or something comparable) for cash privately or what one would spend if doing the same trip on cash without timeshares even if not comparable.  I do feel there are 2 components of the value as it applies to timeshare.  One which we are discussing, which is $$$ based and the other is value added such as more space, kitchen, activities, etc.  But there is also a debit side which might include the yearly costs even if not needed, lack of housekeeping, limited locations, additional costs like II/RCI, planning requirements and the limitations on travel including reservation success.


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## sox21 (Apr 26, 2022)

Dean said:


> Did you use discounted rates?  If not it would give you a falsely early time frame on break even.


I used the cheapest price I could get from Marriott. Keep in mind, I purchased over 15 years ago. I don’t even know that redweek existed back then. at this point I’m beyond tracking and simply enjoying.


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## frank808 (Apr 27, 2022)

For me, the purchase of points and week for enrollment of resale weeks into the club is simple. Divide the money I am saving every year by not having to pay lock off and exchange fees to purchase price. Calculated that it will take me about 8 years to break even on those purchases. 

The money spent to purchase resale MVC weeks is a wash. I could sell or give resale weeks away for what I aquired them for. 

Now, the annual maintenance fees is another story.

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


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## Dean (Apr 27, 2022)

sox21 said:


> I used the cheapest price I could get from Marriott. Keep in mind, I purchased over 15 years ago. I don’t even know that redweek existed back then. at this point I’m beyond tracking and simply enjoying.


Obviously it's a moving target and I appreciate your additional information.  Personally I don't track things year to year, that's too much for me.  However, when purchasing I feel it's a very important part of the thought process.  I do see many people that trick themselves into seeing more value than they actually are getting by using rack rates when that's not what they would spent without owning.  IMO timeshares rarely save anyone money but if one makes reasonable purchases, they can add value beyond the actual costs for a fair price.  But they also add risks and long term financial commitments.  Personally I want at least a 20% discount over what I could rent privately for the same or similar (like VRBO).  Now is likely not the best time to be comparing though given how inflated certain costs are.


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## rapmarks (Apr 27, 2022)

I was all in on this thread until posters started saying one weeks stay would cost 11k plus.  I own a vacation home in a resort, not a five star resort, but my yearly cost isn’t that high.


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