# Still the happiest place on earth ... not in my experience.



## DrQ (Jan 5, 2019)

*Disney World is getting so expensive that it's pricing out the middle class*
Steve Cameron

Jan. 2, 2019, 5:43 PM

Disney World raised its prices twice in 2018 and switched to a dynamic pricing model that charges higher prices during peak summer months and winter holidays.
This is the fourth time in park history that annual pass prices were raised twice in the same year.
The new model prices out many of its pass holders in the middle class — the old model doesn't work in the modern US economy anymore.
According to Robert Niles, the editor of Theme Park Insider, Disney Parks wants to use pricing and promotions to equalize crowds throughout the year.

In 2018, Disney World raised its ticket prices, twice. Take the park's platinum pass for example, it's the standard option that grants access to all four parks with no blackout dates. In February, the price went from $779 to $849, then in October its price jumped from $849 to $894, as Disney unveiled its dynamic pricing model. That's a 15% increase in just one year.

This is the fourth time in park history that annual pass prices were raised twice in the same year. The first time was 1997 in anticipation of Animal Kingdom's 1998 opening. Similarly, the price markups in 2018 are in advance of Disney World and Disneyland's 14-acre "Star Wars" theme lands, called Galaxy's Edge. And Disney parks expansion doesn't stop there. Hong Kong Disneyland is spending $1.4 billion on "Avengers"- and "Frozen"-themed attractions. On top of that, it's adding capacity to Tokyo DisneySea and updating Epcot and Disney Studio park at Disneyland Paris.

Despite all the costly expansions, Disney Parks and Resorts reported a $4.5 billion operating profit for the 2018 fiscal year. That's over 100% increase from 2013. So, if it is steadily profiting, why are Disney Parks becoming so expensive?

From the mid-'80s into the early 2000s, Disney Parks pulled way ahead of its competition. In 2002, Magic Kingdom's attendance alone nearly doubled its closest non-Disney competitor, MGM Studios. But in 2010, that changed when Universal opened the Wizarding World of Harry Potter.


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## DaveNV (Jan 5, 2019)

Times certainly have changed!  My first trip to Disney World was in the Spring of 1972, about six months after it opened.  I remember paying just a few dollars to get in, (less than $5 maybe?), and receiving a ticket book filled with all those lettered tickets. Despite using all the E- and D-tickets, I never did manage to use up all the A- or B-tickets.  Crowd control was kind of a backhand, because the number of E-tickets in that book was very limited. You had to decide which things you wanted to see and do.  In those days, long before Fast Pass and such, when your tickets were done, you were done.  

Dave


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## bbodb1 (Jan 5, 2019)

All good things must come to an end......


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## mdurette (Jan 5, 2019)

The mouse certainly knows how to pay for his cheese!

I have an RCI exchange coming up - I have been looking to add 2 days onto the week.   I am AMAZED at the pricing for on-site hotels.   The values are not too bad, but the deluxe - HOLY MOLY!  Anywhere from $600 to $800 per night.   I just don't get it.  When I'm at WDW the most I am doing in the room is sleeping, but people do pay it.   

Paying those prices + tickets + food = crazy money out the door.

DCL (Disney Cruise Line) has priced me out.   We were loyal DCL cruisers for years, but haven't gone in over 2.   Why, they are 3x the cost of RCCL, even for the new big ships with great itineraries.    DD12 really, really wants to go on DCL again.   Sorry kiddo, not gonna happen.


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## bluehende (Jan 5, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Times certainly have changed!  My first trip to Disney World was in the Spring of 1972, about six months after it opened.  I remember paying just a few dollars to get in, (less than $5 maybe?), and receiving a ticket book filled with all those lettered tickets. Despite using all the E- and D-tickets, I never did manage to use up all the A- or B-tickets.  Crowd control was kind of a backhand, because the number of E-tickets in that book was very limited. You had to decide which things you wanted to see and do.  In those days, long before Fast Pass and such, when your tickets were done, you were done.
> 
> Dave




I also made it around Easter that year.  We have also been there about 8 times since.  It used to be a fairly cheap nice vacation if you were careful and planned.  Lately the prices for everything have gone through the roof.  And the worst is the experience has really gone down hill.  Crowds have gotten terrible all year round.  Some due to rides having sides closed and some because of crowds due to the economy.  Me thinks that is why the price has gone through the roof.  Why wouldn't they as long as they are shoveling through the gate.  I also hear a lot of complaints on Disboards about the general experience deteriorating as prices go up. I will return but have not been there since 2008 and have no plans for the next few years.  If course that could change if grand kids go and we are invited.


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## Talent312 (Jan 5, 2019)

We made the "mistake" of buying annual passes last year.
They were reasonable for Florida residents, weekdays only.
We made sure to get our $$ worth, going six times in 12 mos.
Now, the mouse will not see us for another five years, at least.

Efforts to control crowds w-pricing may return to haunt them.
But from what we saw, it's not working. It was quite crowded.
The unwashed masses seem immune to whatever they charge.

.


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## elaine (Jan 5, 2019)

Yup. We are pretty much priced out, based upon ridiculousness. When our few old no expire tickets run out, we’re likely done except 1 more trip with grandchild with a2 day base ticket stayingoffsite. It has changed a lot.
We did wdw on the cheap for years-off-site timeshare, packed lunches, condo for dinner. We bought 10 day no expire park hoppers with 5 water park/Disney quest visits in 2005 for $350 and went to parks 2days and wp or dq, putt putt pool etc the other days. Nice middle class vacation. The trip was not any more $ than anywhere else after buying the 10 day tickets upfront. Actually cheaper bc we didn’t pay for any entertainment or entrance fees otherwise.
My boss went a few years ago over Easter and stayed at poly regular room with dining plan for 2a/2 kids.  She said it was more than her 2 week honeymoon to Hawaii. There is no way I would pay $5-10k for a wdw trip.


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## jackio (Jan 5, 2019)

Yet, we continue to drink the KoolAid.  First we brought our kids, in the 90's and early 2000's.  They loved it and went there as adults.  Now they want to bring their children and even though the prices are ridiculous, we want to go along to see the grandchildren's faces when the meet the Mouse.  In fact, I am more excited about our upcoming trip this month than any of the past ones, because I want to experience it through the grandkids' eyes.  I guess that makes it worthwhile, but the prices are just sick.


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## BarbmC (Jan 6, 2019)

We're planning a trip Christmas Vacation this year - my kids are teachers, so we have to go when it's probably the craziest time there.  Going so my grandson can have his first trip to Disney - looking forward to seeing his reactions to everything!  Using Marriott Rewards points to stay at the Swan or the Dolphin.  I'll just hold out my credit card for the rest and cringe - at least I know what we're getting into.


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## breezez (Jan 6, 2019)

BarbmC said:


> We're planning a trip Christmas Vacation this year - my kids are teachers, so we have to go when it's probably the craziest time there.  Going so my grandson can have his first trip to Disney - looking forward to seeing his reactions to everything!  Using Marriott Rewards points to stay at the Swan or the Dolphin.  I'll just hold out my credit card for the rest and cringe - at least I know what we're getting into.


Last I went at Christmas I think we got to do 5 attractions in the entire day.   Waited till fireworks ended then took almost 2 hours to get back to car.


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## WVBaker (Jan 6, 2019)

Going to Disney World is a part of American lore. For many, the experience makes us long for a sense of nostalgia and innocence 
perpetuated in the 50s and 60s. Walt Disney presented all that was idyllic. A trip to Disney World is a return to innocence and an integral part of American life. It could be, people keep returning to Disney World year after year is because it’s appropriate for all ages. There is something for everyone.

Being the complex and interesting market that it is, how many theme parks are there in the US and are they really substitutes? Also, like its forerunner Disneyland, Disney World will never be completed. Disney World is always changing, and this is exactly how Walt Disney wanted it. It's being there, looking around and seeing all those children's faces light up.

Why keep going back to Disney? I guess if I have to explain Disney, there's just no explaining Disney.


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## "Roger" (Jan 6, 2019)

DrQ said:


> ...
> Despite all the costly expansions, Disney Parks and Resorts reported a $4.5 billion operating profit for the 2018 fiscal year. That's over 100% increase from 2013. So, if it is steadily profiting, why are Disney Parks becoming so expensive?...


I think that you have answered your own question. Shareholder would say that they are not running a public service or a charity. The more profits the better.

I can understand your not liking this, but, for better or worse, it is the American way.


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## bbodb1 (Jan 6, 2019)

"Roger" said:


> I think that you have answered your own question. Shareholder would say that they are not running a public service or a charity. The more profits the better.
> 
> I can understand your not liking this, but, for better or worse, it is the American way.


Too much focus on short term shareholder profit means a long term loss of focus on product value.  A lot of companies who thought they were immortal brought on their own downfall following philosophies like this.


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## Passepartout (Jan 6, 2019)

IF Disney was trying to improve the experience of park visitors by raising prices until large numbers of people stay away, IT WORKED! They priced themselves out of my enjoyment. I won't be back.

Jim


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

elaine said:


> Yup. We are pretty much priced out, based upon ridiculousness. When our few old no expire tickets run out, we’re likely done except 1 more trip with grandchild with a2 day base ticket stayingoffsite. It has changed a lot.
> We did wdw on the cheap for years-off-site timeshare, packed lunches, condo for dinner. We bought 10 day no expire park hoppers with 5 water park/Disney quest visits in 2005 for $350 and went to parks 2days and wp or dq, putt putt pool etc the other days. Nice middle class vacation. The trip was not any more $ than anywhere else after buying the 10 day tickets upfront. Actually cheaper bc we didn’t pay for any entertainment or entrance fees otherwise.
> My boss went a few years ago over Easter and stayed at poly regular room with dining plan for 2a/2 kids.  She said it was more than her 2 week honeymoon to Hawaii. There is no way I would pay $5-10k for a wdw trip.



You sound exactly like us.  We used the 10 day with water parks and got 14 days in the park.  With cheap rentals and basically no disney meals it was cheap.  Even then if you had to stay on site and eat every meal in the parks you could run up a big tab even then.  It is possible today to do it without spending a fortune but not as easy.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jan 6, 2019)

breezez said:


> Last I went at Christmas I think we got to do 5 attractions in the entire day.   Waited till fireworks ended then took almost 2 hours to get back to car.


I just would not do this. We really would like to do Disney again because it has been almost 10 years since the last time and accept the cost because it is an amazing place but not if it's a sardine can.  If we go it will be during super low season. We'd also bite the bullet and pay to stay onsite because that is how you can maximize the usage of the park by using the early entry access given to hotel guests.   

This is the way of the world now. If you have something in great demand by the masses you raise prices as much as you can to milk every last dollar out of it until the average person is priced out.  Same thing is happening with movies, sporting events and major musical performances. At some point there will be a tipping point and  the majority of people won't be able to afford it. Disney already knows this hence the pricing change. They are making so much money they are basically pushing people away from being able to afford it so they can keep the quality of service the same.


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## Janann (Jan 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> In those days, long before Fast Pass and such, when your tickets were done, you were done.



Not really...I remember going to the ticket windows at Disneyland that were spread around the park and spending 50 cents for one more ticket.  Those were the days.


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## artringwald (Jan 6, 2019)

DW and her sister have been making an almost annual trip to Disney World for many years, but last year they decided they wouldn't be going anymore. It wasn't about the price, it was the crowds. FastPass isn't fast anymore, and reservations have to be booked too far in advance. The parks are cluttered with scooters and you risk getting run over by a distracted senior. For them, it's just not worth standing in lines for hours and getting crowd claustrophobia.


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## DaveNV (Jan 6, 2019)

Janann said:


> Not really...I remember going to the ticket windows at Disneyland that were spread around the park and spending 50 cents for one more ticket.  Those were the days.



I don't recall that being an option at WDW, but would have used it if I'd known, for sure.  I was with a group on a bus from the Naval Training Center in Orlando, so maybe we had a bus to catch and couldn't wait.  I do remember going to WDW two weekends in a row, so I must have felt there was more to see. 

Dave


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> I don't recall that being an option at WDW, but would have used it if I'd known, for sure.  I was with a group on a bus from the Naval Training Center in Orlando, so maybe we had a bus to catch and couldn't wait.  I do remember going to WDW two weekends in a row, so I must have felt there was more to see.
> 
> Dave




It was there to.  I remember using my allowance to get tickets for some ride.  I think it was 20,000 leagues under the sea.


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## WVBaker (Jan 6, 2019)

*Disney World is proof the middle class is booming*

https://nypost.com/2018/03/17/disney-world-is-proof-the-middle-class-is-booming/

An interesting opinion.


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## silentg (Jan 6, 2019)

We live in Florida have AP weekday only. Now includes parking so it’s better than before when parking was extra.We go a few times a month, short visits but are prepared. Get fast passes and plan around them. Make dinner reservations if we are going at night. Still enjoy. Going tomorrow with DD and friends. Epcot.
Silentg


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> *Disney World is proof the middle class is booming*
> 
> https://nypost.com/2018/03/17/disney-world-is-proof-the-middle-class-is-booming/
> 
> An interesting opinion.


Is the middle class booming, or just racking up CC debt?


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## bbodb1 (Jan 6, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> *Disney World is proof the middle class is booming*
> 
> https://nypost.com/2018/03/17/disney-world-is-proof-the-middle-class-is-booming/
> 
> An interesting opinion.



In the article, I saw this quote:


> ...Disney World is simply reflecting the reality of the astonishing wealth-creation machine that is America....



..but the author never discusses the debt incurred for these trips in terms of how long (and how hard) it is to pay for these trips.  We had a thread around here about debt (which seems to have disappeared) but when a trip to WDW can easily cost 5 figures and most middle class people tend not to be able to handle an unexpected debt of $400, I wonder how many people are risking their fiscal stability for a few days at WDW.


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## bnoble (Jan 6, 2019)

Domestic attendance and per-guest spending continue to grow. For every person who decides they won't go back, there appears to be at least one person to take their place.


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## Talent312 (Jan 6, 2019)

Waking up at 6:45am to book fast passes for the _better_ rides is a "nice" innovation.
At least they haven't started charging to beat the queue like the other parks, yet.
.


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## bbodb1 (Jan 6, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Domestic attendance and per-guest spending continue to grow. For every person who decides they won't go back, there appears to be at least one person to take their place.



But the point that should concern fans of WDW is - how long is that trend sustainable?  And what happens when attendance falls off?  
The point here is that lust for every dollar now may be killing the golden goose...

Also, what would Walt think if he knew his creation was out of financial reach of a majority of Americans?


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## bnoble (Jan 6, 2019)

Every change they make, every price that goes up, brings up the same refrain: "How long can this go on?"

So far, so good. Is there a breaking point? Sure. But Disney is fanatical about measuring guest experience and attitude, and this is not their first trip around the Monopoly board. If I were a betting man, my money would be on: "They know more about what they are doing  than the armchair CEOs."

And I get that people like to play WWWT (What Would Walt Think).  But, if you've ever read a credible biography of the man, you'd know that the Kind Old Uncle Walt persona was just that. This is a guy who managed to create his very own governmental agency to support WDW's planning and construction.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

bnoble said:


> So far, so good. Is there a breaking point? Sure. But Disney is fanatical about measuring guest experience and attitude, and this is not their first trip around the Monopoly board. If I were a betting man, my money would be on: "They know more about what they are doing  than the armchair CEOs."


I think you are on point here.

I think as long as they keep buying/nurturing popular franchises, the demand will remain.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 6, 2019)

I have met many people from England who love Disney World and go every year, even though they have to fly to Orlando to get there.  They say it's very inexpensive for their families.  Several families have told us that they take their kids out of school to avoid the heat in Orlando.  I get that.  They take a trip and get annual passes, and then take the second trip at the end of those annual passes.  Two trips.  

Annual passes are a bargain, if you love Disney.  Ours expire in a few days and won't be renewed anytime soon.  

One English family told us how great their value was at Universal Studios, while staying at the Portofino Hotel.  It was only $360 per night for their 7 nights!  That was an interesting conversation.  I have stayed at the Loew's Royal Pacific Hotel, and I thought it was very average for the $300 per night price tag, but I understand that the benefits of staying on-site are pretty amazing, after doing it once ourselves.  We literally walked on every ride and didn't have to wait.  We rode everything in the park by 2 PM. 

That is something Disney has not done for its hotel guests. I can see Disney doing that at some point, raising their hotel prices to allow extra-wealthy people those privileges.  That would be annoying, but people don't seem to mind at Universal that we skipped all lines.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 6, 2019)

I should have also said that taking sandwiches into the park is something we as a family decided to do to save money.  It really saves a lot of money, too, and since I don't eat sandwiches at home (too many carbs in the bread), I enjoyed them much more than a Disney burger for $12.

The food at Disney is not good.  LeCellier is the only restaurant we liked, and the prices are outrageous now.  

We had friends who recommended the fish and chips at Rose and Crown, so we went last month.  It was not good.  I would rather eat Fish and Chips at Universal Studios in Finnegan's, which is by Revenge of the Mummy.  It tastes much better, the quantity is better, the service is better, and it's cheaper.  It's just a nice place to stop and relax a while.  We love that place.  The shepherd's pie is also good.


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## WVBaker (Jan 6, 2019)

bbodb1 said:


> I wonder how many people are risking their fiscal stability for a few days at WDW.



However, couldn't that be said about many things in life that bring happiness. I'm sure there are many that say that about the timeshare industry in fact. We each must make our choices in life.

We are not guaranteed a future. Sometimes, living in the moment is crucial to leading a happy life.

_"What if you wake up some day and you’re 65, or 75, and you never got your memoir or novel written; or you didn’t go swimming in warm pools and oceans all those years because your thighs were jiggly and you had a nice big comfortable tummy; and you were just so strung out on perfectionism and people-pleasing that you forgot to have a big, juicy, creative life of imagination and radical silliness and staring off into space like when you were a kid? It’s going to break your heart. Don’t let this happen."_

American novelist Anne Lamott


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## mdurette (Jan 6, 2019)

The mouse is also a master of making sure you stay on his turf too.    From the moment you land at MCO until the moment you fly away he has all your transportation covered.    MCO is usually so cheap to rent a car from that I would normally get one.   But, now $24 a night to park at DVC on top of the rental expense, gas, tolls etc.    He's got me, I'm not renting this next trip.  

But, that doesn't mean I'm doing my grocery shopping on his turf!   Looking like Walmart delivery or Walmart pick up via a taxi will be the way to go.


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## bizaro86 (Jan 6, 2019)

DrQ said:


> Despite all the costly expansions, Disney Parks and Resorts reported a $4.5 billion operating profit for the 2018 fiscal year. That's over 100% increase from 2013. So, if it is steadily profiting, why are Disney Parks becoming so expensive?



The costly expansions don't come off before the operating profit. Disney Parks and resorts earned $4.5 billion in operating profit last year. However, they spent $3.2 billion in capital expenditures on everything from Star Wars Land to cruise ships etc. The $4.5 billion also doesn't include interest they're paying on money used to build the current theme parks. More than 70% of the profit from the parks goes back into expansions, and isn't available for shareholders.

For all the high prices, Disney Parks and Resorts isn't that profitable by most standards. Over the years, Disney has invested just over $60 billion in the parks and resorts segment (that includes everything, land, cruise ships, attractions, etc). To earn $4.5 billion in one year for that segment is only a 7.5% return on that investment. And that is in a record-breaking, two-price-raises year. They have also agreed to phase in a wage increase for staff, which will offset a significant portion of the price increases in the future.

Disney parks are expensive, but they are amazing. The amazing part makes them expensive to build and run, so the prices need to be high to keep them going. The theme park in my home city is $40 for an annual pass. I buy it, but don't particularly consider it better value than Disney pricing - it's just less for less.


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## Big Matt (Jan 6, 2019)

By nature a lot of us on these boards are cheap.  This is why we ended up here.  We are all trying to figure out how to get over on the systems.  Disney is smarter than us and got rid of a lot of the loopholes.  Like others, I leveraged the heck out of the 10 day non-expire with the park hopper.  We would get three vacations out of that, Orlando is an easy trade and flights from DC are low.  I figured that since our kids are now out of the house (mostly) we could go in the fall when it's slow, but what people don't understand about their new model is that it's designed to make every time of the year "busy".  Even if the parks aren't as packed as during peak times they stagger opening of some rides forcing you to use up more hours.  They want you to come back tomorrow just to finish.  The last loophole was the annual passes.  If you can do three weeks in the same 365 days it was a good deal at about $450 per ticket.  Do the math on the new prices and guess what.....it's almost $60 per day per person.  Not a good deal any more.

The only good deal is when you go during a shoulder season, stay in the park, and buy the meal plan, but that forces you to buy everything there.  Not for everyone.  The real key is to own Disney points.  That gives you a discount off of the season passes and food.  Plus you get extra magic hours.  

Go compare what a top end pass to Busch Gardens in Williamsburg gets you.  Free admission and parking at all 11 parks (Busch Gardens Tampa/Williamsburg, all the Seaworld parks, the associated water parks, and Sesame Place), 15% food and shopping discounts, three free passes, ride again privileges.  Price is: $350 bucks.  

By the way for the folks who talked about how much it cost in 1972, that was 47 years ago.  You could buy a good car for $3000 and a 4 bedroom house for about $35,000.  Gas was 36 cents per gallon.  23 Skiddoo!  I was nine.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> By the way for the folks who talked about how much it cost in 1972, that was 47 years ago.  You could buy a good car for $3000 and a 4 bedroom house for about $35,000.  Gas was 36 cents per gallon.  23 Skiddoo!  I was nine.


And gross annual pay was $10,000 for a good job.


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> By the way for the folks who talked about how much it cost in 1972, that was 47 years ago.  You could buy a good car for $3000 and a 4 bedroom house for about $35,000.  Gas was 36 cents per gallon.  23 Skiddoo!  I was nine.




Here is a comparison from travel and leisure.


In 1971, a one-day pass to the mouse house would set you back $3.50 (a little over $20, accounting for inflation), according to a new report by GoBankingRate. Today, that same ticket will cost visitors a whopping $115.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Here is a comparison from travel and leisure.
> 
> 
> In 1971, a one-day pass to the mouse house would set you back $3.50 (a little over $20, accounting for inflation), according to a new report by GoBankingRate. Today, that same ticket will cost visitors a whopping $115.


Yeah, but then you had to buy tickets for the rides, A, B, C, D & E. Was that admission or admission and a book of tickets?


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

DrQ said:


> Yeah, but then you had to buy tickets for the rides, A, B, C, D & E. Was that admission or admission and a book of tickets?


\
It was admission and a book of tickets.  Not completely the equivalent of today's ticket.  I remember needing to buy a couple more tickets the day we were there.  We also had a few tickets left from the junk rides.  I still have the book somewhere.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

bluehende said:


> \
> It was admission and a book of tickets.  Not completely the equivalent of today's ticket.  I remember needing to buy a couple more tickets the day we were there.  We also had a few tickets left from the junk rides.  I still have the book somewhere.


Cool! I'm assuming the $115 figure is just for the Magic Kingdom pass?


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

As a DVC member, I bought a platinum annual pass for about $550 per person. To stay in 1 bedrooms, I am paying $200 to $350 per night on average for the seasons and views categories I tend to travel in. If I tried to maximize my trips by traveling in the lowest season or staying in studios or staying in the cheaper DVC resorts, it would be even cheaper. I think the cost as a DVC member is very reasonable to stay at the deluxe resorts in one bedrooms. I think the Fast Passes are incredible and easy to use. I was able to make last minute fast pass adjustments even the day of the rides. We were at WDW last August. We never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a ride using fast passes. I pre-booked dining but I was also able to make some last minute adjustments. I think Disney’s current system is great. Gone are the days of 3-4 hour lines when they used paper tickets. It was cheap back then but the long lines and crowded parking kept me away. It is so easy and pleasurable when you’re staying on site at a big Deluxe 1 bedroom and use Disney transportation and Fast Passes as well as pre-book dining. Disney is not perfect and we had some hiccups but overall, it is nothing like the past. The ticket prices are expensive, especially if you buy a day pass, but equivalent (or less) than most concert or football tickets. This thread is sounding like a long rant. It is very repetitive since everytime anything about Disney is posted, I see the same posts. Deja vu...ground hog day...insanity...whatever you want to call it. I too remember the days of ticket books. My first Disney trip was in 1971 (age 5 or 6). My family went 3 times year every year since it opened. I loved Disney but dreaded the waits and hassle of getting in and out of the park. It would take hours extra to deal with all the hassles so I stopped going as an adult until last year. I was amazed. It is like a different place now. It is beautiful and glamorous with all the fancy resorts and nice restaurants. Now it is easy peasy but a bit more expensive in today’s dollars. Also the parks, rides and shows are much more advanced that 40+ years ago. The shows are wonderful. It makes for a nice adults only vacation now.


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

Here are the E ticket rides in 1973.  

In 1973, your E options were:
It's a small world
20k leagues under the sea
Country Bear Jamboree
Jungle Cruise
Hall of Presidents
Haunted Mansion


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## Luanne (Jan 6, 2019)

I started going to Disneyland the year it opened.  It was only about an hour from us, we had family in Anaheim (we could go there for breaks), and we loved it.  It's not so much the price that bothers me these days, it is how crowded it's gotten.  It's not enjoyable [to me] to have to plan the day out to the nano second and have to wait hours for a ride or attraction.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> As a DVC member, I bought a platinum annual pass for about $550 per person. To stay in 1 bedrooms, I am paying $200 to $350 per night on average for the seasons and views categories I tend to travel in. If I tried to maximize my trips by traveling in the lowest season or staying in studios or staying in the cheaper DVC resorts, it would be even cheaper. I think the cost as a DVC member is very reasonable to stay at the deluxe resorts in one bedrooms. I think the Fast Passes are incredible and easy to use. I was able to make last minute fast pass adjustments even the day of the rides. We were at WDW last August. We never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a ride using fast passes. I pre-booked dining but I was also able to make some last minute adjustments. I think Disney’s current system is great. Gone are the days of 3-4 hour lines when they used paper tickets. It was cheap back then but the long lines and crowded parking kept me away. It is so easy and pleasurable when you’restaying on site at a big Deluxe 1 bedroom and use Disney transportation and Fast Passes as well as pre-book dining. Disney is not perfect and we had some hiccups but overall, it is nothing like the past. The ticket prices are expensive, especially if you buy a day pass, but equivalent (or less) than most concert or football tickets. This thread is sounding like a long rant. It is very repetitive since everytime anything about Disney is posted, I see the same posts. Deja vu...ground hog day...insanity...whatever you want to call it. I too remember the days of ticket books. My first Disney trip was in 1971. I loved Disney but dreaded the waits and hassle of getting in and out of the park. It would take hours extra to deal with all the hassles. Now it is easy peasy but a bit more expensive in today’s dollars.


I will give you the the journalist slanted the article by choosing the worst case ticketing scenario, and it is hard to compare since the park has grown.

But from my title, I have seen a lot of miserable people in the park paying homage to the mouse.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> Waking up at 6:45am to book fast passes for the _better_ rides is a "nice" innovation.
> At least they haven't started charging to beat the queue like the other parks, yet.
> .



You do not need to wake up at 6:45 am to book fast passes. I booked them very easily and changed them many times before my visit. I got everything I wanted including all the “hot” rides.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

DrQ said:


> I will give you the the journalist slanted the article by choosing the worst case ticketing scenario, and it is hard to compare since the park has grown.
> 
> But from my title, I have seen a lot of miserable people in the park paying homage to the mouse.



They were probably forced to go and are mouse haters. LOL


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

DrQ said:


> Yeah, but then you had to buy tickets for the rides, A, B, C, D & E. Was that admission or admission and a book of tickets?



$3.50 was just the cost of admission.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Here are the E ticket rides in 1973.
> 
> In 1973, your E options were:
> *It's a small world*
> ...


*Isn't that now ranked up with waterboarding?* [JK]

I still love the Haunted Mansion! (Especially on a humid FL day)


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> By nature a lot of us on these boards are cheap.  This is why we ended up here.  We are all trying to figure out how to get over on the systems.  Disney is smarter than us and got rid of a lot of the loopholes.  Like others, I leveraged the heck out of the 10 day non-expire with the park hopper.  We would get three vacations out of that, Orlando is an easy trade and flights from DC are low.  I figured that since our kids are now out of the house (mostly) we could go in the fall when it's slow, but what people don't understand about their new model is that it's designed to make every time of the year "busy".  Even if the parks aren't as packed as during peak times they stagger opening of some rides forcing you to use up more hours.  They want you to come back tomorrow just to finish.  The last loophole was the annual passes.  If you can do three weeks in the same 365 days it was a good deal at about $450 per ticket.  Do the math on the new prices and guess what.....it's almost $60 per day per person.  Not a good deal any more.
> 
> The only good deal is when you go during a shoulder season, stay in the park, and buy the meal plan, but that forces you to buy everything there.  Not for everyone.  The real key is to own Disney points.  That gives you a discount off of the season passes and food.  Plus you get extra magic hours.
> 
> ...



In 2000 in Miami, you could buy a luxury oceanview condo in the best buildings in Miami Beach for $250,000. Now they start at at least $2 million. And that is in just 19 years. If we go back to 1971, middle class houses were about $10,000 in Miami (that is about what my family members paid for their first homes around that time). Miami is super inflated now because it is fashionable. Same thing with Disney. The Mouse has “grown up” since 1971.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

Here is an interesting way to look at inflation. In 1971, the cost of a stamp was 8 cents. Now they are going up to 55 cents this year. 

If a one day Disney entrance fee without tickets was $3.50 - or $20 in today’s dollars, Disney is behind the eightball in raising prices!

https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2018/pr18_086.htm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_United_States_postage_rates


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## DaveNV (Jan 6, 2019)

Luanne said:


> I started going to Disneyland the year it opened.  It was only about an hour from us, we had family in Anaheim (we could go there for breaks), and we loved it.  It's not so much the price that bothers me these days, it is how crowded it's gotten.  It's not enjoyable [to me] to have to plan the day out to the nano second and have to wait hours for a ride or attraction.



We made it to Disneyland the first time in (I think) 1958, right before I started Kindergarten.  I was trying to think of how many times I've been back to either place since.  For Disneyland, it'd be maybe three times total.  For WDW, I think it's four.  Compared to some of you, I'm way, way, way behind on my Mouse time. 

Dave


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> They were probably forced to go and are mouse haters. LOL


I wouldn't call them "haters", but how many marathon runners drag their families along the run for the experience?


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## pedro47 (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime, please do not said “Disney is behind the eightball in raising price.”
This will give them a new idea that prices are  to low.

I can remember paying less than $200.00 dollars for a five days hopper pass that  included all the water parks in Orlando .

We have been bless to have visited both parks Walt Disney Land and Disney World.


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## Luanne (Jan 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> We made it to Disneyland the first time in (I think) 1958, right before I started Kindergarten.  I was trying to think of how many times I've been back to either place since.  For Disneyland, it'd be maybe three times total.  For WDW, I think it's four.  Compared to some of you, I'm way, way, way behind on my Mouse time.
> 
> Dave


When I was growing up we went at least once a year, sometimes two or three times.  There was a series of years that we went for my birthday in October and I'd get to take a friend.  My parents would let us go off on our own.  That was the best.  We loved the Matterhorn and our record was going on it 8 times in a row.


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## Big Matt (Jan 6, 2019)

You are the good example.  Double down on the DVC points and it makes a lot of sense with or without the dining.  I'm geeky enough about the mouse to do it, but never really got to where I needed to buy the points.  Maybe I should buy a small amount.  It's only two of us unless we want a big family event with the adult kids.  



TravelTime said:


> As a DVC member, I bought a platinum annual pass for about $550 per person. To stay in 1 bedrooms, I am paying $200 to $350 per night on average for the seasons and views categories I tend to travel in. If I tried to maximize my trips by traveling in the lowest season or staying in studios or staying in the cheaper DVC resorts, it would be even cheaper. I think the cost as a DVC member is very reasonable to stay at the deluxe resorts in one bedrooms. I think the Fast Passes are incredible and easy to use. I was able to make last minute fast pass adjustments even the day of the rides. We were at WDW last August. We never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a ride using fast passes. I pre-booked dining but I was also able to make some last minute adjustments. I think Disney’s current system is great. Gone are the days of 3-4 hour lines when they used paper tickets. It was cheap back then but the long lines and crowded parking kept me away. It is so easy and pleasurable when you’re staying on site at a big Deluxe 1 bedroom and use Disney transportation and Fast Passes as well as pre-book dining. Disney is not perfect and we had some hiccups but overall, it is nothing like the past. The ticket prices are expensive, especially if you buy a day pass, but equivalent (or less) than most concert or football tickets. This thread is sounding like a long rant. It is very repetitive since everytime anything about Disney is posted, I see the same posts. Deja vu...ground hog day...insanity...whatever you want to call it. I too remember the days of ticket books. My first Disney trip was in 1971 (age 5 or 6). My family went 3 times year every year since it opened. I loved Disney but dreaded the waits and hassle of getting in and out of the park. It would take hours extra to deal with all the hassles so I stopped going as an adult until last year. I was amazed. It is like a different place now. It is beautiful and glamorous with all the fancy resorts and nice restaurants. Now it is easy peasy but a bit more expensive in today’s dollars. Also the parks, rides and shows are much more advanced that 40+ years ago. The shows are wonderful. It makes for a nice adults only vacation now.


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> TravelTime, please do not said “Disney is behind the eightball in raising price.”
> This will give them a new idea that prices are  to low.
> 
> I can remember paying less than $200.00 dollars for a five days hopper pass that  included all the water parks in Orlando .



In 1998 we paid right around $275 for seven day hopper passes that included the water parks and the days never expire. We still have a couple of days left on those passes and keep them along with the receipt for them in our safety deposit box.  We live in Florida and get Florida resident weekday select annual passes so our son and his wife will use the days that are left eventually. He jokes that when they use them they will be the oldest tickets the Disney employee who gets them has ever seen and maybe they will even be older than the employee.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> In 1998 we paid right around $275 for seven day hopper passes that included the water parks and the days never expire. We still have a couple of days left on those passes and keep them along with the receipt for them in our safety deposit box.  We live in Florida and get Florida resident weekday select annual passes so our son and his wife will use the days that are left eventually. He jokes that when they use them they will be the oldest tickets the Disney employee who gets them has ever seen and maybe they will even be older than the employee.


I have a 1999 with one day left.  I'm REALLY curious as to what the reaction would be if I presented it.


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

I finally found a definitive opening cost.  Admission was 3.50.  A pass with 7 tickets was 4.50.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 6, 2019)

Been there 3 times- enough for us, though I would have liked to at least see animal kingdom and some of the other newer attractions.

Next lifetime. We have moved on.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> In 1998 we paid right around $275 for seven day hopper passes that included the water parks and the days never expire. We still have a couple of days left on those passes and keep them along with the receipt for them in our safety deposit box.  We live in Florida and get Florida resident weekday select annual passes so our son and his wife will use the days that are left eventually. He jokes that when they use them they will be the oldest tickets the Disney employee who gets them has ever seen and maybe they will even be older than the employee.



$275 in 1998 sounds like a lot for a 7 day hopper pass. That was 21 years ago. I bought an unlimited platinum annual pass for $550 last year. I will get about 14-16 days out of this pass and the current annual passes come with all kinds of discounts on food and merchandise.

When people complain about Walt Disney World inflation, I think they are neglecting to look at the rest of the market and how everything else has gone up exponentially too in the past 47 years.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Been there 3 times- enough for us, though I would have liked to at least see animal kingdom and some of the other newer attractions.
> 
> Next lifetime. We have moved on.



Just out of curiosity, why are people who are not interested in Disney reading and commenting here?

On another topic, I noticed there is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I feel sorry for people reading the Disney Vacation Club threads and leaving with negative impressions because people who do not own DVC are spreading inaccurate information. I have noticed this not just on this thread but on almost all threads related to Disney.


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## PigsDad (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> $275 in 1998 sounds like a lot for a 7 day hopper pass. That was 21 years ago. I bought an unlimited platinum annual pass for $550 last year. I will get about 14-16 days out of this pass and the current annual passes come with all kinds of discounts on food and merchandise.


No, that sounds right to me.  Note, that is a full 7-day pass, no expiration with Park Hopper, so those 7 days could be used over several years, if desired.  We got the same ticket a few years earlier and it was definitely well over $200.

Kurt


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## Janann (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I bought an unlimited platinum annual pass for $550 last year.



I'm guessing that this was an annual pass renewal, you own DVC (full price, not a resale purchase) and you are a Florida resident, correct?  Most of us can't get this pricing.


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> No, that sounds right to me.  Note, that is a full 7-day pass, no expiration with Park Hopper, so those 7 days could be used over several years, if desired.  We got the same ticket a few years earlier and it was definitely well over $200.
> 
> Kurt



And they include the water parks. A couple of years later they changed those tickets to only include one or two visit to the water parks. Then they quit including the water parks altogether.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

Janann said:


> I'm guessing that this was an annual pass renewal, you own DVC (full price, not a resale purchase) and you are a Florida resident, correct?  Most of us can't get this pricing.



No, no and no. It was not a renewal. I am not a Florida resident. I live in California. And I did not buy DVC retail.

I got the great pricing as a DVC member. Most people are not going to get any great perks without DVC. Disney is going to be expensive and stressful and crowded because people try to economize by staying off site. The DVC member perks pay for themselves in money and time savings.


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## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> No, that sounds right to me.  Note, that is a full 7-day pass, no expiration with Park Hopper, so those 7 days could be used over several years, if desired.  We got the same ticket a few years earlier and it was definitely well over $200.
> 
> Kurt



If we converted $275 in 1998 to today’s dollars, I am guessing it is equivalent or more expensive than the current annual passes with the discounts many of us can get.


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## Janann (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I got the great pricing as a DVC member.



Interesting.  Its quite possible though that the pricing has changed since the last purchase, and it now matches up with the chart.  You got quite a bargain.

http://allears.net/walt-disney-world/wdw-planning/tickets-annual-passes/


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## DaveNV (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just out of curiosity, why are people who are not interested in Disney reading and commenting here?
> 
> On another topic, I noticed there is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I feel sorry for people reading the Disney Vacation Club threads and leaving with negative impressions because people who do not own DVC are spreading inaccurate information. I have noticed this not just on this thread but on almost all threads related to Disney.



This thread is in the Lounge, where everyone is invited to read and comment. 

As to content:  My initial comment was that things had certainly changed over the years, and the pricing I offered was to give those who weren't around back then an idea of what it used to cost.  I can appreciate that pricing has gone up, but anything I've said here is not a complaint, only my observation.  FWIW:  If I was near a Disney resort again, I'd probably go.  But living across the country from the two USA Disney locations, it's a long way to travel for something that only has average appeal.  I don't travel with kids, and so far, my adult kids haven't expressed a desire to go to Disney with their kids.  So, on a good note, I'm not likely to be that guy standing in front of you in line. 

Dave


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## paxsarah (Jan 6, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> No, that sounds right to me.  Note, that is a full 7-day pass, no expiration with Park Hopper, so those 7 days could be used over several years, if desired.  We got the same ticket a few years earlier and it was definitely well over $200.
> 
> Kurt



With the no expire option, that sounds about right. We bought 10-day no expire tickets with water parks fun and more in 2008 for $475. We still have water park days on them and last used one maybe two years ago.


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## bluehende (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> If we converted $275 in 1998 to today’s dollars, I am guessing it is equivalent or more expensive than the current annual passes with the discounts many of us can get.



Inflation has been pretty tame.  Here is the data.

* U.S. Inflation Rate, $100 in 1998 to 2018 *
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2018 are 54.05% higher than prices in 1998. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.18% per year during this period.

In other words, $100 in 1998 is equivalent in purchasing power to $154.05 in 2018, a difference of $54.05 over 20 years.





Applying that to 275 gives 423.  The current price is 590 with tax as a mid range as they adjust by season.  The increases have effectively doubled inflation.  That also does not include the no expiration that was a very expensive add on.


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## DrQ (Jan 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> On another topic, I noticed there is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I feel sorry for people reading the Disney Vacation Club threads and leaving with negative impressions because people who do not own DVC are spreading inaccurate information. I have noticed this not just on this thread but on almost all threads related to Disney.


The title is taking issue with Disney's advertising old slogan "The happiest place on earth." I have had enjoyable times, but I didn't find it true. I started with the sheer expense that can be racked up in the park. As stated before, I observed many tied people drudging through the park.


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2019)

From what I found online the price of a day ticket in 1998 was $42. That wouldn't have been a hopper ticket nor included the water parks.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

Janann said:


> Interesting.  Its quite possible though that the pricing has changed since the last purchase, and it now matches up with the chart.  You got quite a bargain.
> 
> http://allears.net/walt-disney-world/wdw-planning/tickets-annual-passes/



I calculated my room rates using my 2019 maintenance fees and the 2019 charts for 1 bedrooms in the locations and categories I tend to stay at, resulting in a range of $200 - $350 per night for 1 bedrooms as a DVC member. I did not get a bargain. I have only been a DVC member for a little over a year so I paid close to the recent resale prices. Not a bargain at all but it does pay off in significant cost and time savings.

They did have a 25% discount on the platinum annual pass for DVC members when I purchased it. I doubt living in California that we will purchase another annual pass. I am getting a lot of use out of the platinum pass because I planned to take 2 big trips to WDW while I have the annual pass.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> This thread is in the Lounge, where everyone is invited to read and comment.
> 
> As to content:  My initial comment was that things had certainly changed over the years, and the pricing I offered was to give those who weren't around back then an idea of what it used to cost.  I can appreciate that pricing has gone up, but anything I've said here is not a complaint, only my observation.  FWIW:  If I was near a Disney resort again, I'd probably go.  But living across the country from the two USA Disney locations, it's a long way to travel for something that only has average appeal.  I don't travel with kids, and so far, my adult kids haven't expressed a desire to go to Disney with their kids.  So, on a good note, I'm not likely to be that guy standing in front of you in line.
> 
> Dave



This is very similar to the Mexico safety threads. People are jumping in with misc comments and some misinformation based on what they read in the media. But it is the same thing everytime. Someone posts an article about Disney or the latest change at DVC or the resorts and everyone jumps in to bash, esp people who do not ever go or own at DVC. People on the Mexico forum are tired of the Mexico bashing. I can see why. It gets old real fast to read the same comments over and over again. As a DVC owner, I am not finding the DVC forum to be very helpful. It saddens me to read the misinformation that is posted, mainly for future Tuggers who may become misinformed as a result.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Inflation has been pretty tame.  Here is the data.
> 
> * U.S. Inflation Rate, $100 in 1998 to 2018 *
> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2018 are 54.05% higher than prices in 1998. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.18% per year during this period.
> ...



I am glad you posted this and provided some hard data. With what I have read on this thread, I would have gotten the impression that Disney is really screwing the consumer. Inflation averaged about 2% since 1998. It sounds like the annual pass rate has gone up by 3-4% a year annualized since 1998. Since interest compounds quicker at a higher base, the Disney annual pass would not be exactly double the rate of inflation but even if it were, that would be an average of 4% a year. That is not completely out of line given all the innovation that has happened at Disney in this time period and that you are getting a very different product from 21 years ago.

Other timeshare companies (like Marriott and possibly others) appear to be raising prices well above the rate of inflation and they are not offering much that is new. If you look at the historical MFs posted by Steven Ting, it is quite an eye opener as to how much MFs have gone up in the past 10 years. Inflation in the past 10 years has been even lower than 2% since the fed held rates near zero until recently. Inflation was 1.55% average annual from 2008 to 2018 or about 16.6% higher in 2018 compared to 2008. Looking at the charts, I see some MVC resorts have gone up 30-50% in a similar time period. That is just nut when you think about it. But it also helps put Disney price increases into perspective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_nPQxu6citm-RKTDgP3o_svL3FbtFcOM2AKzq2l-C7U/htmlview

Just for the record, I am not planning to keep my Disney timeshares over the long term. I fell into DVC in 2017 for family reasons and the family dynamics changed. I decided since I paid so much in upfront fees, I might as well be a kid myself and enjoy DVC and Disney for awhile. I could have sold all my points and not lost any money but I chose to hold and enjoy for a couple of years. There are many fun adult things to do. We have never had kids but we were trying to adopt. It fell through and I had already bought the DVC points. I was being overly optimistic about our truly screwed up adoption system, not realizing things could fall through even after telling children that they had new parents. (Okay, I will stop before I get into an adoption system rant, which would lead me into a government rant and somehow all my rants always come back to we pay to much in taxes for getting little to no services. But I am not going to go there today. LOL)


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## bnoble (Jan 7, 2019)

Here is a complete history of ticket prices
http://allears.net/walt-disney-world/wdw-planning/wdw-ticket-history/


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## WinniWoman (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just out of curiosity, why are people who are not interested in Disney reading and commenting here?
> 
> On another topic, I noticed there is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I feel sorry for people reading the Disney Vacation Club threads and leaving with negative impressions because people who do not own DVC are spreading inaccurate information. I have noticed this not just on this thread but on almost all threads related to Disney.




I personally have a curiosity for lots of topics- nothing more to it than that. As much as I loved Disney, Epcot and Universal when I visited, I find it interesting how people go back to Disney over and over again. 

Probably just how they would not understand how I go back year after year to Vermont (and our timeshare at Smuggs) (and NH). 

I once had a coworker say to me- "what do you DO in Vermont"? She was there once and didn't get it.

That is what makes us all different and having various perspectives.  And that is what makes for interesting discussions on many topics. 

What- people can't make comments if they are not commenting the way you want them to?  And- if people are giving inaccurate information there are others who can and usually do add corrective information.


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## Icc5 (Jan 7, 2019)

Good thing we all look at things differently or we would all be in the same place at same time.  
Bart


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## klpca (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just for the record, I am not planning to keep my Disney timeshares over the long term. I fell into DVC in 2017 for family reasons and the family dynamics changed. I decided since I paid so much in upfront fees, I might as well be a kid myself and enjoy DVC and Disney for awhile. I could have sold all my points and not lost any money but I chose to hold and enjoy for a couple of years. There are many fun adult things to do. We have never had kids but we were trying to adopt. It fell through and I had already bought the DVC points. I was being overly optimistic about our truly screwed up adoption system, not realizing things could fall through even after telling children that they had new parents. (Okay, I will stop before I get into an adoption system rant, which would lead me into a government rant and somehow all my rants always come back to we pay to much in taxes for getting little to no services. But I am not going to go there today. LOL)



I am sorry to hear about the adoption issue. That has to be painful.


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## bizaro86 (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I am glad you posted this and provided some hard data. With what I have read on this thread, I would have gotten the impression that Disney is really screwing the consumer. Inflation averaged about 2% since 1998. It sounds like the annual pass rate has gone up by 3-4% a year annualized since 1998. Since interest compounds quicker at a higher base, the Disney annual pass would not be exactly double the rate of inflation but even if it were, that would be an average of 4% a year. That is not completely out of line given all the innovation that has happened at Disney in this time period and that you are getting a very different product from 21 years ago.



The government reported inflation numbers adjust for improvements. So they do something like, "the cost of TVs is up 7%, but the TV were are using to measure is 5% better than last year, so the inflation on TVs is 2%" TVs are a random example, but like most things they are dramatically improved since the 70s, which lowers the reported inflation rate materially. Another big factor is that a lot more offshore labor at very low prices is included now (that TV was probably made in China by people making less than US minimum wage).

Given Disney world has gotten a lot better over the years (more parks, rides, shows, etc) the reported inflation rate isn't a good metric. You aren't buying the same thing you were when it opened.


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## Big Matt (Jan 7, 2019)

To the folks questioning why people go back over and over again.....the junkies who I know love routines and who want to do the same family vacation every year.  People also love the fact that it takes them back to their youth with timeless characters and experiences.  You are truly in a fantasy world and not an amusement park.  This is what they market and deliver.  Pay attention to how the workers interact with you and themselves next time you go.  Try to find something messy, broken, or sloppy.  They hide this stuff.  If you ever drive around WDW at about 5:30 am you will see a small army of people picking up trash fixing landscaping, etc.  This is just outside the park.  Imagine what happens inside.


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## WVBaker (Jan 7, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> To the folks questioning why people go back over and over again.....the junkies who I know love routines and who want to do the same family vacation every year.  People also love the fact that it takes them back to their youth with timeless characters and experiences.  You are truly in a fantasy world and not an amusement park.  This is what they market and deliver.  Pay attention to how the workers interact with you and themselves next time you go.  Try to find something messy, broken, or sloppy.  They hide this stuff.  If you ever drive around WDW at about 5:30 am you will see a small army of people picking up trash fixing landscaping, etc.  This is just outside the park.  Imagine what happens inside.



Being a bit rough on those who enjoy Disney World wouldn't say?

There are those that prefer "routines" and wouldn't have it any other way. Defining these individuals as "junkies", may be overstepping. I for one don't mind being taken back to my youth by, "timeless characters and experiences". Enjoying the occasional "fantasy world" in life isn't such a bad thing. Also, I don't recall ever having an employee at Disney World interact in a manner that wasn't nice. Just my opinion though. I must ask, just where do they, "hide" all the, "messy, broken, or sloppy"? Just a thought and purely speculation but, these may be placed in the proper trash containers for disposal.


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## paxsarah (Jan 7, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Being a bit rough on those who enjoy Disney World wouldn't say?



I took their post as an understanding one, not a belittling one.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 7, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> Given Disney world has gotten a lot better over the years (more parks, rides, shows, etc) the reported inflation rate isn't a good metric. You aren't buying the same thing you were when it opened.



Yes, that is true.  Wait until Star Wars opens at DL and DW.  Both parks will be packed with people for 2-3 years after those areas open.  Disney knows how to get people to keep coming back.  

Our son is a huge Star Wars fan.  He is excited to take his daughter to see what Disney does with Star Wars.  Our little granddaughter is only 20 months, and she has already been to Disney World three times (five total weeks) and Disneyland once.  Just wait until Star Wars opens.  

When we went last month, our son and I stayed with the baby while Rick and our daughter-in-law rode Tower of Terror.  Our daughter-in-law said, "She won't sit still at all for the Beauty and the Beast show."  Josh and I went over anyway, and Elizabeth adored the show.  She kept smiling and looking at me, like, "I know this movie, and now it's real."  She is already a Disney nut.  

They need to make a Moana ride.  Our granddaughter loves that movie.  When Maui sings, "What can I say except you're welcome, I'm just an ordinary demi-guy," Elizabeth gets up and really dances to that song.  I mean, she is crazy nuts over that music in the movie.  She knows when each song is coming on, and whatever toy she is playing with gets thrown on the floor, so she can get up and dance!


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## bluehende (Jan 7, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> The government reported inflation numbers adjust for improvements. So they do something like, "the cost of TVs is up 7%, but the TV were are using to measure is 5% better than last year, so the inflation on TVs is 2%" TVs are a random example, but like most things they are dramatically improved since the 70s, which lowers the reported inflation rate materially. Another big factor is that a lot more offshore labor at very low prices is included now (that TV was probably made in China by people making less than US minimum wage).
> 
> Given Disney world has gotten a lot better over the years (more parks, rides, shows, etc) the reported inflation rate isn't a good metric. You aren't buying the same thing you were when it opened.



I will disagree somewhat.  You are paying for a fixed time of entertainment.  That is the same in the comparison.  The improvements you mention are more a factor of wanting to stay longer.  That is apples and oranges.  Improvements keep people coming and keep them longer, but a day or a week's entertainment is constant.  Also no one has mentioned all the special event parties now.  The day pass now can get you 2/3 of a day a few years ago.  Now the technological advancements do change the calculus and change the basic value of the day's entertainment.  Obviously avatar land and 20,000 leagues under the sea are different experiences.  I will point out that at the magic kingdom the original E rides are all there but the mentioned 20,000 leagues and some rides have not changed much since they debuted in the 68 NY worlds fair. Does anybody know the rise over the same time for Busch Gardens.  I think they are the closest comparison.

This thread is pointing out that there are two types of people in this world.  No not cat or dog people.  It is disney lover and disney hater.  I am actually a disney lover evidenced by a lot of time spent at DW.  It has moved away from me not because of the parks.  I have constantly postponed my next trip due to the crowds and a general opinion that the experience has gone down hill.  I read the disboards which attract both types of people.  The general complaint there is they have built so many rooms there and need to fill them.  This has led to big crowds in the park even on historically low periods.  Last year it was identified that disney was closing down ride capacity under the assumption they were trying to cut down on labor costs.  This was generating lines in january even bigger than summer including waits that averaged over an hour for fast pass lines.  It is early to know if this year is the same.  I understand that the latest and greatest rides will generate big lines.  In the past we have been there at rope drop and hit a ride or two before they got insane.  The rest of the day was a nice day of less popular rides and just chilling.  There were also a lot of complaints about the shape the parks were in.  A lot of trash and even worse ride closures were common.  To get your money's worth now you have to start at 6 months out with dining reservations and then like others have said get your fast pass the second the window opens.  Last year the new rides were impossible to get unless you stayed on property.  I have back and knee problems and lines are a problem over time.  Everybody's situation is different, but for me as much as I do love disney it does not work for me.  I miss those two week trips that left us happy and exhausted.  I am sure Disney will thrive as long as the DW trip is a rite of passage not only in the US but world wide.  I think they have to be careful though as the market is finite and keeping up the image as the happiest place on earth is crucial.


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## elaine (Jan 7, 2019)

Disney lover here--who's about done with WDW park family vacations. We own DVC and still love WDW--it's its own compound with lots to do outside of the parks. We went at least every other Easter/Christmas for 10+ years. My son caught his 1st bass at Ft Wilderness. DD rode horses and took archery lessons. We have countless great character photos on our walls. We have roasted many marshmellows and sung with Chip and Dale.
DD, now 17, asked to go back for spring break. But, her 4 day base ticket cost almost $400. I can't really justify $2K for family of 5 for 4 park days. It was a great run, including 5 RCI-DVC trades, which were much more cost effetive than using DVC points. We'll still go, but likely mostly DH and I and stay in a DVC studio, which is a great value, and enjoy the pools, restaurants and maybe pop into a park for 1 day.
OT--same issue with DCL. We took 9 people in 3 cabins for under $3K over spring break in 2007. The rates are astronomical now.


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## Big Matt (Jan 7, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Being a bit rough on those who enjoy Disney World wouldn't say?
> 
> There are those that prefer "routines" and wouldn't have it any other way. Defining these individuals as "junkies", may be overstepping. I for one don't mind being taken back to my youth by, "timeless characters and experiences". Enjoying the occasional "fantasy world" in life isn't such a bad thing. Also, I don't recall ever having an employee at Disney World interact in a manner that wasn't nice. Just my opinion though. I must ask, just where do they, "hide" all the, "messy, broken, or sloppy"? Just a thought and purely speculation but, these may be placed in the proper trash containers for disposal.



I have no idea why you took my post as negative.  I'm personally a huge Disney person and have been on week long Disney trips about 15 times.  I do think people are junkies about Disney, and I mean it just as defined.  They can't get enough and go back to the mouse time and time again.  That's not a bad thing, but it is something that many people don't understand. 

My discussion about the workers, cleaners, etc. are all about how they make it perfect, almost too perfect, but that's what they want you to see to keep the fantasy going.  Again, not a bad thing.  For the broken/messy part and also with renovations, etc. they hide it.  When something becomes broken you will often see a sign or tarp in front so you don't see what's behind it and it usually has some sort of message that is funny or eye catching and maybe with a character.  Again, it is a way to keep the reality shielded from the public.  Here's an example.  When you are on Test Track at Epcot you can briefly see what Epcot looks like from behind the park.  There are work trucks, stacks of boxes, dumpsters, and other things you would expect to see, but you don't.  My son got burned in the Biergarten one time when he spilled hot soup and we were quickly ushered out the back to a golf cart that took us to the first aid station.  We were in the middle of the back lot of Epcot.  Again, not something you see, and seeing it makes you understand that the park is just an elaborate representation of the "pretty stuff".  Disney is expert in making sure that you only see what they want you to see.  It's all part of the magic.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 7, 2019)

A Google satellite picture of Disney World is kind of fun to look at.  The rides look great from the streets of Disney, but the ride is in a warehouse that you cannot see.  Disney definitely is different in that back lot.  

I am disappointed the Chinese Theater with the movie ride is going to be another roller coaster.  It might be cute, but the movie ride was one-of-a-kind and very popular with little kids, especially Wizard of Oz and Mary Poppins.


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## Big Matt (Jan 7, 2019)

Great Movie Ride was one of my favorites, plus it was pretty long and air conditioned.


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## bluehende (Jan 7, 2019)

rickandcindy23 said:


> A Google satellite picture of Disney World is kind of fun to look at.  The rides look great from the streets of Disney, but the ride is in a warehouse that you cannot see.  Disney definitely is different in that back lot.
> 
> I am disappointed the Chinese Theater with the movie ride is going to be another roller coaster.  It might be cute, but the movie ride was one-of-a-kind and very popular with little kids, especially Wizard of Oz and Mary Poppins.





Big Matt said:


> Great Movie Ride was one of my favorites, plus it was pretty long and air conditioned.




We always used that one for a nice break too.  Usually rode it 3 times a day with no line.  I suspect the no line is why it now will be something else.  I know they keep track of riders and if a ride is declining it is time to refurb or change.


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## bizaro86 (Jan 7, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I will disagree somewhat.  You are paying for a fixed time of entertainment.  That is the same in the comparison.  The improvements you mention are more a factor of wanting to stay longer.  That is apples and oranges.  Improvements keep people coming and keep them longer, but a day or a week's entertainment is constant.



Fair enough. My point was more that the reported inflation rate adjusts for changes in "Value recieved" which makes the reported inflation rate lower. (My car has heated seats etc, but still cost way more than a sedan from the 70s. It gets me from place to place just the same though). 

If someone is going to use value adjusted inflation numbers to compare the price of Disney tickets to the past, I think it is reasonable to value adjust the Disney experience as well.  Flight of Pandora isn't quite the same as Small World...


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## WVBaker (Jan 7, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> I have no idea why you took my post as negative.  I'm personally a huge Disney person and have been on week long Disney trips about 15 times.  I do think people are junkies about Disney, and I mean it just as defined.  They can't get enough and go back to the mouse time and time again.  That's not a bad thing, but it is something that many people don't understand.
> 
> My discussion about the workers, cleaners, etc. are all about how they make it perfect, almost too perfect, but that's what they want you to see to keep the fantasy going.  Again, not a bad thing.  For the broken/messy part and also with renovations, etc. they hide it.  When something becomes broken you will often see a sign or tarp in front so you don't see what's behind it and it usually has some sort of message that is funny or eye catching and maybe with a character.  Again, it is a way to keep the reality shielded from the public.  Here's an example.  When you are on Test Track at Epcot you can briefly see what Epcot looks like from behind the park.  There are work trucks, stacks of boxes, dumpsters, and other things you would expect to see, but you don't.  My son got burned in the Biergarten one time when he spilled hot soup and we were quickly ushered out the back to a golf cart that took us to the first aid station.  We were in the middle of the back lot of Epcot.  Again, not something you see, and seeing it makes you understand that the park is just an elaborate representation of the "pretty stuff".  Disney is expert in making sure that you only see what they want you to see.  It's all part of the magic.



Thanks for the explanation and I'm sorry you had such a bad time. I hope everything turned out well for your Son.


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## bbodb1 (Jan 7, 2019)

DrQ said:


> The title is taking issue with Disney's advertising old slogan "The happiest place on earth." I have had enjoyable times, but I didn't find it true. I started with the sheer expense that can be racked up in the park. As stated before, *I observed many tied people drudging through the park*.



Now there's something you don't see every day!


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> To the folks questioning why people go back over and over again.....the junkies who I know love routines and who want to do the same family vacation every year.  People also love the fact that it takes them back to their youth with timeless characters and experiences.  You are truly in a fantasy world and not an amusement park.  This is what they market and deliver.  Pay attention to how the workers interact with you and themselves next time you go.  Try to find something messy, broken, or sloppy.  They hide this stuff.  If you ever drive around WDW at about 5:30 am you will see a small army of people picking up trash fixing landscaping, etc.  This is just outside the park.  Imagine what happens inside.



I think most people like routine and repeat the same vacations over and over. The reason I discovered at age 53 that I like Disney is for the second reason you cited. It does feel like a fantasy world that takes you back to your youth and I love the characters. I had not been to Disney World since I was 18 and went for the first time last year. I was surprised at how fun it was. However, I must admit I was bored at the Magic Kingdom (been there, done that too many times as a kid). I really enjoyed Animal Kingdom and other “newer” experiences. Next time I go to WDW, I may skip the Magic Kingdom. I love the DVC resorts in and of themselves. I could just hang out at the resorts and be happy.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Being a bit rough on those who enjoy Disney World wouldn't say?
> 
> There are those that prefer "routines" and wouldn't have it any other way. Defining these individuals as "junkies", may be overstepping. I for one don't mind being taken back to my youth by, "timeless characters and experiences". Enjoying the occasional "fantasy world" in life isn't such a bad thing. Also, I don't recall ever having an employee at Disney World interact in a manner that wasn't nice. Just my opinion though. I must ask, just where do they, "hide" all the, "messy, broken, or sloppy"? Just a thought and purely speculation but, these may be placed in the proper trash containers for disposal.



It is ironic that the same people who put Disney down for being fake often enjoy other less healthy, artificial experiences.


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## Brett (Jan 7, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Here is a complete history of ticket prices
> h/




Disney (Fla) one day ticket prices at $129 + $48 parking -  wow !!!


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## PigsDad (Jan 7, 2019)

Brett said:


> Disney (Fla) one day ticket prices at $129 + $48 parking -  wow !!!


You know, everyone always is complaining about how expensive Disney is, but how does it compare to other popular family all-day entertainment activities?

So being from Colorado, skiing is a major entertainment activity around here.  Guess what?  Lift ticket prices make a day a Disney seem like a bargain!

*Vail, Beaver Creek’s single-day, window lift ticket price breaks $200*

And that is just the lift ticket.  Then you need to add in equipment rental / costs, parking, food, etc.  A family of 4 could easily have to drop $1000-1200 for a day's entertainment -- and that just for 6-7 hours!  Puts Mickey to shame.

Kurt


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## bluehende (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> It is ironic that the same people who put Disney down for being fake often enjoy other less healthy, artificial experiences.



I have no impression that anyone here has put down disney because it is fake.  People have said too crowded, too expensive, and a few say it is just not for them.  I believe those are all valid reasons to not go to disney.  Also you will have to explain to me what you mean by less healthy,artificial experiences.  I honestly have no clue.  People like different things.  We took family vacations backpacking.  Most people would consider that torture and would pay not to do it.


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## bluehende (Jan 7, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> You know, everyone always is complaining about how expensive Disney is, but how does it compare to other popular family all-day entertainment activities?
> 
> So being from Colorado, skiing is a major entertainment activity around here.  Guess what?  Lift ticket prices make a day a Disney seem like a bargain!
> 
> ...



As a skier and a disney lover I hate the truth in your post.  Both examples are the extreme of each.  We still ski and use bargain days (cann't handle the 5 day ticket anymore) and took up snow shoeing to fill in the time.  Skiing has priced out families unless you are fairly well off.  The ski industry has had it's problems as very few ski resorts make a lot of profit.  If it were not for real estate sales a lot of good resorts would have folded.  I worry that disney will have the same problem over time.  I have heard Vail referred to as the disneyland of skiing and not because of the pricing.


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## Jan M. (Jan 7, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Being a bit rough on those who enjoy Disney World wouldn't say?
> 
> There are those that prefer "routines" and wouldn't have it any other way. Defining these individuals as "junkies", may be overstepping. I for one don't mind being taken back to my youth by, "timeless characters and experiences". Enjoying the occasional "fantasy world" in life isn't such a bad thing. Also, I don't recall ever having an employee at Disney World interact in a manner that wasn't nice. Just my opinion though. I must ask, just where do they, "hide" all the, "messy, broken, or sloppy"? Just a thought and purely speculation but, these may be placed in the proper trash containers for disposal.



I don't think any slight was intended by the OP. The people who go time after time to Disney World have no problem with calling themselves or being referred to as Disney junkies or Disneyholics. I've seen a few other cute names too.

We live in Florida and have two granddaughters, 7 and 2. This Fall was our first time taking both girls to the Disney Parks and the first time for the younger one. With our older granddaughter my husband took her to Legoland and was often the one to take her to the pools at the different resorts we stayed at and I took her to the Disney Parks. That worked out well and we both got breaks. Now that there are two of them to keep up with we both go. Plus they are 5 years apart in age and the younger one can't do all the rides her sister can. Hearing the older one tell her sister at the Frozen Sing-A-Long show that it was the "good Eric" narrating or out the hundreds of times she and I have seen the Lion King show it was only the second time we'd sat in the Lion section or at Enchanted Tales with Belle how she'd been every character in the skit made my husband fear for his future sanity if he has to do the same shows over and over and over. But it made us realize that these things are a big deal to her and how much she enjoys being there. Lucky for him that the two year old loves the rides; a number of them that her seven year old sister wouldn't have any part of doing until she was five. I told him wait until it gets hot and/or he's tired; he will be more than happy to sit and be in air conditioning even if it means seeing the same shows over and over. A good time for Papa to check his eyelids for leaks.

Sometimes I get blase about the Disney Parks because I've gone so much but seeing it through the younger granddaughter's eyes for her first time or through other visitors eyes who are first timers brings home to me that Disney really is magical for most people. I always advise people that they and their family will enjoy it so much more if they pull the kids out of school and go at a non-peak time or when it isn't so hot. When the Parks are packed and/or it is in the mid 80's and up it can be difficult to "feel the magic". I always like going to Epcot during the Flower and Garden Festival. This year we saw the Christmas time Candlelight Processional show for the first time. There really are very good reasons people like to go back to Disney World over and over.


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## Beachclubmum (Jan 7, 2019)

I still find Disney a good value, as compared to other entertainment.  A round of golf at Harbour Town is in the $200+ range. That round lasts about 3 hours. For about $100 you can get 12 hours (or more) in the Disney parks.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I have no impression that anyone here has put down disney because it is fake.  People have said too crowded, too expensive, and a few say it is just not for them.  I believe those are all valid reasons to not go to disney.  Also you will have to explain to me what you mean by less healthy,artificial experiences.  I honestly have no clue.  People like different things.  We took family vacations backpacking.  Most people would consider that torture and would pay not to do it.



This is a general criticism I hear. Less healthy, more artificial might be Las Vegas or a mega cruise. I guess you could lump Disney into mass market vacations like Las Vegas and mega cruises too actually. Also any city vacation is quite artifical since cities are all manmade.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> You know, everyone always is complaining about how expensive Disney is, but how does it compare to other popular family all-day entertainment activities?
> 
> So being from Colorado, skiing is a major entertainment activity around here.  Guess what?  Lift ticket prices make a day a Disney seem like a bargain!
> 
> ...



Yes good point. We have a season pass to Squaw and a season locker. That is $3000+ a year and depending on the weather, we may or may not get our money’s worth. We still have not skied this season. Not to mention the thousands it costs to buy or rent gear. At Squaw a one day gear rental is about $60 a day. A few hours of group or private lessons can easily put you out hundreds of dollars. I have not even mentioned room and board. That could easily put you out $1000+ for the weekend.

The ski lockers at Squaw are sold out and they have a waiting list now. Otherwise we might consider giving it up but we have a locker in “prime real estate” at the base of the mountain in front of the ski lifts. I call it our ski condo.


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## TravelTime (Jan 7, 2019)

I probably should stop commenting on pricing issues. I am not that price sensitive if I feel there is some value. I made reservations to go to WDW later this year and I signed up for 4 private tours - 3 at Animal Kingdom and 1 at Epcot. I also signed up for a bunch of signature restaurants as well as an Epcot dinner/concert combo experience with reserved seats for the concert. I doubt most people would do all this due to the extra expense on top of tickets/passes, rooms, and meal expenses. I also stay at 1 bedrooms even when I travel by myself. So I am certainly not economizing in any way and my opinion on prices is skewed entirely. It is time for me to acknowledge this to myself. Living in the SF Bay Area, it is very easy to get a warped view of the world.


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## Brett (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I probably should stop commenting on pricing issues. I am not that price sensitive if I feel there is some value. I made reservations to go to WDW later this year and I signed up for 4 private tours - 3 at Animal Kingdom and 1 at Epcot. I also signed up for a bunch of signature restaurants as well as an Epcot dinner/concert combo experience with reserved seats for the concert. I doubt most people would do all this due to the extra expense on top of tickets/passes, rooms, and meal expenses. I also stay at 1 bedrooms even when I travel by myself. So I am certainly not economizing in any way and my opinion on prices is skewed entirely. It is time for me to acknowledge this to myself. Living in the SF Bay Area, it is very easy to get a warped view of the world.



point taken.  There is a range of disposable income among TUG members
When I travel to Florida next month (birds and wildlife, not WDW)  I may stay at a Super 8 Motel and not a 5 star resort.  And  I stay a few days for free at a relatives house.
But occasionally I get a room at a Marriott when there is perceived value


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## mdurette (Jan 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> As a DVC owner, I am not finding the DVC forum to be very helpful. It saddens me to read the misinformation that is posted, mainly for future Tuggers who may become misinformed as a result.



I think the best forum for DVC owners is mouseowners.com


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## Crafty71 (Jan 8, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> At least they haven't started charging to beat the queue like the other parks, yet.


And you say that because...?! Have a look at this:

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/en_CA/events-tours/vip-tour-services/

Cheers!


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## joestein (Jan 8, 2019)

DrQ said:


> Is the middle class booming, or just racking up CC debt?



Racking up CC debt.  It seems that people don't care what they spend if they can afford the monthly payments.


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## presley (Jan 8, 2019)

I am a Disneyland junky and I agree with everyone who says it costs too much and is too crowded. Whenever the prices go up, I think I won't renew my pass. I always end up getting a new pass a few months after mine expires. It doesn't matter how much it costs. I usually only visit for a few hours and that's enough time for to check out of all the agonies of life for a while and be refreshed to get back to all my responsibilities.


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## paxsarah (Jan 8, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> I still find Disney a good value, as compared to other entertainment.  A round of golf at Harbour Town is in the $200+ range. That round lasts about 3 hours. For about $100 you can get 12 hours (or more) in the Disney parks.



And if you're like us, our typical ticket is more like a 7-day non-hopper, which can currently be had for $403 from UCT - so for less than $60 a day you get seven days in the parks. I know this is part of the trap that they keep you in the bubble, because at that point it's cheaper to add a day to the ticket than to go do some activity outside of Disney, but we're okay with that. And we leave after that seven days still saying, "Wow, we never got around to doing X attraction that we wanted to do." We certainly don't run out of things to do with a week in the parks.


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## WVBaker (Jan 8, 2019)

joestein said:


> Racking up CC debt.  It seems that people don't care what they spend if they can afford the monthly payments.



I may be in the minority but, I don't believe credit card debt is always bad. Perhaps that vacation at Disney is just what the doctor ordered.

You must respect any debt, borrow only when you need to, and borrow with purpose.


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## joestein (Jan 8, 2019)

The prices don't necessarily keep me out.  However, the perception that the wait times have gotten out of hand and that fastpass plus system makes it very difficult to get onto the popular/new rides does keep me out.

Maybe a VIP tour is the way to go.  I am not sure what the cost of that entails.   Is it $1000/day extra?

I did go to one of the Halloween parties at MK this past August.  I thought it was pretty good.    A decent value plus limited people in the park.  I would do that again at one of the other parks.


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## Magic1962 (Jan 8, 2019)

Its funny to read most people complain about the higher prices...  same thing about RCI...  Timesharing in general...  folks  what did you pay for a gallon of gas when you started driving? how much did you pay for groceries?  how about your first home? this is the cost of life... you can partake or not...  I will partake...   Dave


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## paxsarah (Jan 8, 2019)

joestein said:


> The prices don't necessarily keep me out. However, the perception that the wait times have gotten out of hand and that fastpass plus system makes it very difficult to get onto the popular/new rides does keep me out.



I think this is more of a perception than a reality. We've been happy to exchange into SSR on our last couple of trips, but if we stayed elsewhere and had to book fastpasses at 30 days instead of 60, I think there are about five rides that we wouldn't have been able to get fastpasses for - the two new Toy Story rides (which actually weren't open for our last trip, but I'm including them because they are now - edit: I just checked, and actually only the coaster is unavailable at 30 days from today), the Avatar flight simulator, the Mine Train - and maybe it's only 4 after all (actually, it's possible at the time that the Avatar river ride wouldn't have been available at 30, but they are now). (Obviously Star Wars will add to this list.) We make full use of our fastpasses and rarely wait more than 20-30 minutes for an attraction (and usually much less). There is not a lot of need to stand in a standby line during prime hours if you use the fastpasses available to you and either arrive early or stay late.


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## bluehende (Jan 8, 2019)

Magic1962 said:


> Its funny to read most people complain about the higher prices...  same thing about RCI...  Timesharing in general...  folks  what did you pay for a gallon of gas when you started driving? how much did you pay for groceries?  how about your first home? this is the cost of life... you can partake or not...  I will partake...   Dave




Challenge accepted

I paid about 40 cents a gallon in 1972 when I started driving.

The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 4.05% per year during this period. In other words, *$100* in 1972 is equivalent in purchasing power to *$599.18* in 2018, a difference of *$499.18* over 46 years.

That translates into 2.40 a gallon.  I filled up yesterday for 1.91.  Delaware has cheap gas.

The same disney ticket would be from 4.50 for the adventure pass to 26.00 using inflation and about 21.00 if disney prices followed gas prices.


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## bluehende (Jan 8, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> I think this is more of a perception than a reality. We've been happy to exchange into SSR on our last couple of trips, but if we stayed elsewhere and had to book fastpasses at 30 days instead of 60, I think there are about five rides that we wouldn't have been able to get fastpasses for - the two new Toy Story rides (which actually weren't open for our last trip, but I'm including them because they are now - edit: I just checked, and actually only the coaster is unavailable at 30 days from today), the Avatar flight simulator, the Mine Train - and maybe it's only 4 after all (actually, it's possible at the time that the Avatar river ride wouldn't have been available at 30, but they are now). (Obviously Star Wars will add to this list.) We make full use of our fastpasses and rarely wait more than 20-30 minutes for an attraction (and usually much less). There is not a lot of need to stand in a standby line during prime hours if you use the fastpasses available to you and either arrive early or stay late.




Did you do a trip in 2018.  I am asking because we were planning a feb trip last year and a Jan trip this year using an annual pass.  We canceled when the complaints started on disboards about waits of over an hour in a lot of the fast pass lanes along with the slowing of ride capacity generating long lines for everything.  I will qualify that a lot of the problems seemed to come from multiple major rides breaking down over and over again.  They were giving out fast passes as compensation and it made the parks in general a mess.


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## Magic1962 (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Challenge accepted
> 
> I paid about 40 cents a gallon in 1972 when I started driving.
> 
> ...


but gas prices are lower because of Gov. subsidies so that is NOT a fair comparison....  lets look at real gas prices in Europe etc...  I am not trying to start a fight....   I just find it funny how people complain about the rising prices on everything.... my father in law and brother in law EVERY time we get together complain complain complain....


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## paxsarah (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Did you do a trip in 2018.  I am asking because we were planning a feb trip last year and a Jan trip this year using an annual pass.  We canceled when the complaints started on disboards about waits of over an hour in a lot of the fast pass lanes along with the slowing of ride capacity generating long lines for everything.  I will qualify that a lot of the problems seemed to come from multiple major rides breaking down over and over again.  They were giving out fast passes as compensation and it made the parks in general a mess.



We were there May 25-June 1, 2018. Other than the usual suspects (e.g. Test Track down in inclement weather - which worked in our favor with anytime fastpasses given when this happened during our FP window), we didn't have any major issues with lines or breakdowns. Oh, and Space Mountain was down at opening on a day when we were planning on rope dropping it, but we managed to shuffle things around and fit it in anyway. To be fair, though, there are long standby lines for almost everything during prime time (e.g. after 11am or so), we just don't wait in them. We manage to do what we want at rope drop and with FP.


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## WVBaker (Jan 8, 2019)

Magic1962 said:


> but gas prices are lower because of Gov. subsidies so that is NOT a fair comparison....



Just a suggestion however, we may wish to leave Government and/or Politics out of the picture.


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## bluehende (Jan 8, 2019)

Magic1962 said:


> but gas prices are lower because of Gov. subsidies so that is NOT a fair comparison....  lets look at real gas prices in Europe etc...  I am not trying to start a fight....   I just find it funny how people complain about the rising prices on everything.... my father in law and brother in law EVERY time we get together complain complain complain....



I wasn't the one bringing up gas prices.  Also europe has huge taxes on fuels so like you said not a good comparison.  I do not have the energy to normalize european prices over almost 50 yrs to their inflation rate.  I am just trying to point out that disney's increases have outpaced inflation by a large margin.  Good for them as it seems they continued to squeeze that golden goose for a long time.  Pricing has slowed our trips from every few years to every once in a while and not in about 9 years at this point.  Last year I felt the new stuff added balanced out the cost increases and planned to go.  In park experience as expressed on the dis boards changed that.


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## slip (Jan 8, 2019)

I have never been to any Disney. We were middle class and lived in Chicago when I was growing up but we vacationed in Wisconsin. We had a large family and it would have been too expensive for us to all go that far.

As I had my own family the situation was similar. We only took a few vacations and we mostly went to Minnesota or northern Wisconsin. We live very close to the Wisconsin Dells.

Now that the kids are grown and on their own we have no desire to make a trip just for Disney. If we were in the area we would probably go for a day or two. It would have been more likely if my daughter was staying in Florida but she just took a new job in Denver and will be moving soon. So with no grand kids on the horizon, we don’t see a visit in our future right now.


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## bizaro86 (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I wasn't the one bringing up gas prices.  Also europe has huge taxes on fuels so like you said not a good comparison.  I do not have the energy to normalize european prices over almost 50 yrs to their inflation rate.  I am just trying to point out that disney's increases have outpaced inflation by a large margin.  Good for them as it seems they continued to squeeze that golden goose for a long time.  Pricing has slowed our trips from every few years to every once in a while and not in about 9 years at this point.  Last year I felt the new stuff added balanced out the cost increases and planned to go.  In park experience as expressed on the dis boards changed that.



The inflation rate is a hugely unfair comparison to Disney tickets. They normalize the inflation rate to the increase in quality of goods purchased. So a sedan in 1970 that cost $2,000 may cost $20,000 in 2019. But the inflation rate over that time isn't 10X on that sedan, because the 2019 model has all sorts of stuff the 1970 model didn't have. (A backup camera, heated seats, anti-lock brakes, etc). 

If you were comparing a disney ticket that only included the original rides then using the reported CPI inflation rate is fair. Disney doesn't sell a ticket like that, so you can't. 

Disney is quite a bit better even compared to when I went as a child in the 1990s...


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## Magic1962 (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I wasn't the one bringing up gas prices.  Also europe has huge taxes on fuels so like you said not a good comparison.  I do not have the energy to normalize european prices over almost 50 yrs to their inflation rate.  I am just trying to point out that disney's increases have outpaced inflation by a large margin.  Good for them as it seems they continued to squeeze that golden goose for a long time.  Pricing has slowed our trips from every few years to every once in a while and not in about 9 years at this point.  Last year I felt the new stuff added balanced out the cost increases and planned to go.  In park experience as expressed on the dis boards changed that.


Yeah, I wasn't trying to go politics either  we were at Disney a few years ago with our one daughter and her family.... IT IS EXPENSIVE...  we have told our other daughter when our Grand Daughter turns 5 or older we will go with them and stay at Bonnet Creek... through a trade...  then if they want to go more then a couple of days  that's on them...    we go to the Village and other things...   don't spend lots of money, just go to spend time with our loved ones....    now when you can trade into a 3 bedroom at Bonnet Creek through RCI....   THAT is a STEAL!!!   We did that the last time....  loved it there...  the pools... the fireworks every night from our room...  putt putt golf....  THAT is WHY we timeshare....   Dave


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## bluehende (Jan 8, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> The inflation rate is a hugely unfair comparison to Disney tickets. They normalize the inflation rate to the increase in quality of goods purchased. So a sedan in 1970 that cost $2,000 may cost $20,000 in 2019. But the inflation rate over that time isn't 10X on that sedan, because the 2019 model has all sorts of stuff the 1970 model didn't have. (A backup camera, heated seats, anti-lock brakes, etc).
> 
> If you were comparing a disney ticket that only included the original rides then using the reported CPI inflation rate is fair. Disney doesn't sell a ticket like that, so you can't.
> 
> Disney is quite a bit better even compared to when I went as a child in the 1990s...



And we will complete the circle for the second time.  You are paying for one day of entertainment.  Yes with 1972 technology the pandora ride would have to cost 200 dollars to ride, but I believe a top of the line entertainment day in 1972 is equivalent to a top of the line entertainment day today.  If you want to insist that everything in the basket they use for inflation has to have been exactly the same in 1972 there is almost nothing there.  We do measure inflation and a lot of things in our world use that number for very real decisions.  I will use an example that does not fit your premise.  Movies cost a lot more to make today than in the past.  Movie tickets have risen much less than the cost to make these movies.  In 2018 avengers cost 410 million to film.  In 1972 the Godfather was the most expensive film costing 6 million.  That is 68 fold.  Ticket prices went from 1.76 to 8.97.  Those are averages from a trade group and seem low on both years but are averages.  Here we have costs to produce the entertainment going up 68 fold while the tickets for consumers went up only 5.


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## silentg (Jan 8, 2019)

A fun place


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## bizaro86 (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> And we will complete the circle for the second time.  You are paying for one day of entertainment.  Yes with 1972 technology the pandora ride would have to cost 200 dollars to ride, but I believe a top of the line entertainment day in 1972 is equivalent to a top of the line entertainment day today.  If you want to insist that everything in the basket they use for inflation has to have been exactly the same in 1972 there is almost nothing there.  We do measure inflation and a lot of things in our world use that number for very real decisions.  I will use an example that does not fit your premise.  Movies cost a lot more to make today than in the past.  Movie tickets have risen much less than the cost to make these movies.  In 2018 avengers cost 410 million to film.  In 1972 the Godfather was the most expensive film costing 6 million.  That is 68 fold.  Ticket prices went from 1.76 to 8.97.  Those are averages from a trade group and seem low on both years but are averages.  Here we have costs to produce the entertainment going up 68 fold while the tickets for consumers went up only 5.



Movies fit the premise. A movie from 1972 is much more similar to a current movie than Disney now is to Disney 1972. 

The relative deflation in ticket prices comes from a few sources. Distribution costs are way cheaper (they used to physically print movies on film and deliver them). The worldwide box office is more significant and doesn't add any costs.  (Not many people in China bought tickets to the Godfather, but lots did for Avengers).

Also, the major things that are different/better (3d,  for example) are often separate up charges. By splitting out the improvements you pay for them separately. 

Disney does the opposite, providing a largely inclusive entertainment experience. One that is much better now than when they started, and is thus more valuable. This would be easier to see if they still used the A-E ticket system, as the original E ticket rides would have all been downgraded, offsetting some of the inflation in ticket prices.

As to whether Disney is a day of entertainment now and then, I think what you're missing is the quality is different. 

I can buy seats for the orchestra at my local university for about $5-10. Our local downtown symphony is about $50-$100. By description, they are exactly the same thing (listen to one symphony) but the quality is different so the price for one is higher. The higher cost one sells more tickets (I go to both). Disney is the same comparison but at different times. Disney 1972 was a day at an amusement park. Disney 2019 is a day at a way better amusement park. For basically everything better=more expensive....


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## bluehende (Jan 8, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> Movies fit the premise. A movie from 1972 is much more similar to a current movie than Disney now is to Disney 1972.
> 
> The relative deflation in ticket prices comes from a few sources. Distribution costs are way cheaper (they used to physically print movies on film and deliver them). The worldwide box office is more significant and doesn't add any costs.  (Not many people in China bought tickets to the Godfather, but lots did for Avengers).
> 
> ...



I disagree whole heartedly that the quality is that much better.  Most of the original rides exist and are still the major attractions at the magic kingdom.  My favorite trips were in the late 70's early 80's and feel that the new rides have no where near the charm of the original rides.  Today's disney is get in a car or on something and watch a movie.  I still go on the same number of rides per day as I used to and I do not feel that is an improvement.  I actually feel the quality of the attractions has actually gone down hill.  The atmosphere in the park has deteriorated considerably.  The crowding in of people has led to very stressed people and many more ugly scenes.  The drink around the world at epcot has turned that area into a nightclub a lot of the time.

I think we will agree to disagree.  I still will go to disney but the price increases have lowered the value I get for my dollar and I go much less often.  It is up to each individual and their own financial situation to decide whether that value/cost ratio is worth it.  You will not convince me that todays value is any where near the value I got 25 yrs ago or that the park experience is better.

As for additional charges....get real....  All the party's that need an extra ticket.  All the meet and greets.  Extra hours that demand an expensive stay on site, and park hopper options.


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## DrQ (Jan 8, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I disagree whole heartedly that the quality is that much better.  Most of the original rides exist and are still the major attractions at the magic kingdom.  *My favorite trips were in the late 70's early 80's and feel that the new rides have no where near the charm of the original rides.*  Today's disney is get in a car or on something and watch a movie.  I still go on the same number of rides per day as I used to and I do not feel that is an improvement.  I actually feel the quality of the attractions has actually gone down hill.  The atmosphere in the park has deteriorated considerably.  The crowding in of people has led to very stressed people and many more ugly scenes.  The drink around the world at epcot has turned that area into a nightclub a lot of the time.


Call it nostalgia but I loved the level of illusion that went into this long dead attraction:




Even though it was just a bus on a track, it still felt like a submarine:


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## am1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Money talks and attendance is higher then ever.  In a few years we will get annual Florida resident off season weekday passes again and visit 2 or 3 times.


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## Talent312 (Jan 8, 2019)

There are peep at Disney who wear this t-shirt with pride...


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## Panina (Jan 8, 2019)

silentg said:


> A fun placeView attachment 9801


Yes it is, great picture!


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## DrQ (Jan 9, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> There are peep at Disney who wear this t-shirt with pride...


I think I've seen people walking out of divorce court wearing that shirt looking happier.


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## pedro47 (Jan 9, 2019)

A one day ticket is $109 dollars for one (1) person now.
Would I spent that to see my son and his family laughing, happy, smiling and enjoying themselves with my two (2) grandkids at a Disney park, or on a vacation with my spouse and I. Yes!!

Life is just to short. When you become a senior citizen and you start thinking ??
 I should have  gone fishing with my father, or my father in law, taking more vacations, working less hours, maybe I should have spend that $109 for a Disney ticket to see my grandchildren Happy for a Day with their a Grandparents.

How can you equate costs to see your grand children and family members, love ones   enjoying a day at a Disney Park, or at a timeshare resort Together 
with their parents and grandparents?


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## WVBaker (Jan 9, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> A one day ticket is $109 dollars for one (1) person now.
> Would I spent that to see my son and his family laughing, happy, smiling and enjoying themselves with my two (2) grandkids at a Disney park, or on a vacation with my spouse and I. Yes!!
> 
> Life is just to short. When you become a senior citizen and you start thinking ??
> ...



The greatest joys of life are happy memories. Your job is to create as many of them as possible.


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## bnoble (Jan 9, 2019)

The MagicBand for my next trip just arrived yesterday. I will spend real money on this trip, and I will enjoy it. Hopefully, all of the rest of you can convince everyone you know that the day is not worth it. Y'all are in my way.


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## TravelTime (Jan 9, 2019)

presley said:


> I am a Disneyland junky and I agree with everyone who says it costs too much and is too crowded. Whenever the prices go up, I think I won't renew my pass. I always end up getting a new pass a few months after mine expires. It doesn't matter how much it costs. I usually only visit for a few hours and that's enough time for to check out of all the agonies of life for a while and be refreshed to get back to all my responsibilities.



This is why I like season passes for Disney and to ski. Then I feel less guilty when I only stay a few hours. When I pay by the day, my psyche says I need to get my money’s worth out of the day. When I have a season pass, I feel like I can come and go as I please. Then I am more into maximizing the number of days vs the hours in a day. Life is a bit more relaxing this way...if that is what one calls relaxing! LOL


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## TravelTime (Jan 9, 2019)

bluehende said:


> And we will complete the circle for the second time.  You are paying for one day of entertainment.  Yes with 1972 technology the pandora ride would have to cost 200 dollars to ride, but I believe a top of the line entertainment day in 1972 is equivalent to a top of the line entertainment day today.  If you want to insist that everything in the basket they use for inflation has to have been exactly the same in 1972 there is almost nothing there.  We do measure inflation and a lot of things in our world use that number for very real decisions.  I will use an example that does not fit your premise.  Movies cost a lot more to make today than in the past.  Movie tickets have risen much less than the cost to make these movies.  In 2018 avengers cost 410 million to film.  In 1972 the Godfather was the most expensive film costing 6 million.  That is 68 fold.  Ticket prices went from 1.76 to 8.97.  Those are averages from a trade group and seem low on both years but are averages.  Here we have costs to produce the entertainment going up 68 fold while the tickets for consumers went up only 5.



I understand what you are saying but I do not agree. Movies might not be a great example for many reasons. Technology has changed so much for how people consume movies. I have not looked up the numbers but I suspect movies theaters do not have the same monopoly now as in 1972. Companies make money differently now than in 1972. So much has changed. I do not think one day of entertainment now is the same as in 1972. Not by a long shot. I think premium products that are in high demand will exceed the rate of inflation. If there was not market demand, they could not charge premium prices. Entertainment that delivers what consumers want will charge more. I think this is a supply and demand issue.


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## TravelTime (Jan 9, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I disagree whole heartedly that the quality is that much better.  Most of the original rides exist and are still the major attractions at the magic kingdom.  My favorite trips were in the late 70's early 80's and feel that the new rides have no where near the charm of the original rides.  Today's disney is get in a car or on something and watch a movie.  I still go on the same number of rides per day as I used to and I do not feel that is an improvement.  I actually feel the quality of the attractions has actually gone down hill.  The atmosphere in the park has deteriorated considerably.  The crowding in of people has led to very stressed people and many more ugly scenes.  The drink around the world at epcot has turned that area into a nightclub a lot of the time.
> 
> I think we will agree to disagree.  I still will go to disney but the price increases have lowered the value I get for my dollar and I go much less often.  It is up to each individual and their own financial situation to decide whether that value/cost ratio is worth it.  You will not convince me that todays value is any where near the value I got 25 yrs ago or that the park experience is better.
> 
> As for additional charges....get real....  All the party's that need an extra ticket.  All the meet and greets.  Extra hours that demand an expensive stay on site, and park hopper options.



I do not think the stress of Disney...the crowds and lines...has increased since 1972. I went there so many times as a kid (at least 20+ times between age 6 and 18). We used to have to wait for hours at every ride. The parking situation was horrific. After a 25 year hiatus due to these bad memories, we went back to WDW last year. It is like night and day now. No lines using Fast Passes. No parking issues staying onsite. So much entertainment options for adults. Great restaurants. Fancy hotels. All the new parks, new rides, new shows. Disney is not an amusement park anymore. I see Disney as an entertainment company.


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## silentg (Jan 9, 2019)

Panina said:


> Yes it is, great picture!


That’s my daughter with me, we had a fun day, she just got an annual pass with the photo package included, hope to go a lot with her and my husband this year.
Love Disney!
Silentg


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## Talent312 (Jan 9, 2019)

I do not get Disney photos of myself.
I figure I look silly enuff in R-L photos, only more so in theme parks.
.


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## mentalbreak (Jan 9, 2019)

Funny. I used to take vacation photos of only the sights (usually without people). But now the only ones I truly enjoy and treasure are the ones with loved ones — including poses at theme parks.

Looking back at photos from my teen years, just about every vacation photo includes me or one of my brothers showing some teenage attitude. My vacation rule with my kids is that we will continue to take you on vacation, but when Mom wants to stop for a photo you must participate and no grumpy face alllowed. So far they still enjoy trips with us and cooperate for photos.

And every trip, I take one or two of the best photos and order a refrigerator magnet.


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## DrQ (Jan 9, 2019)

Where Disney started it's waterparks, anyone remember?

*River Country*


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## clifffaith (Jan 9, 2019)

DrQ said:


> Call it nostalgia but I loved the level of illusion that went into this long dead attraction:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What?! They took the submarine out? I remember going every year at night in the fall when they had TRW (my dad's employer) nights. This would have been late 60s, early 70s. There was a shark that had lost the wire holding his nose level, so for several years there'd be the shark swimming nose down. Don't know why he wasn't fixed in a timely manner. And it was always a shock to see the sea monster's face after following his tail for a while at the end of the ride.


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## DrQ (Jan 9, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> What?! They took the submarine out? I remember going every year at night in the fall when they had TRW (my dad's employer) nights. This would have been late 60s, early 70s. There was a shark that had lost the wire holding his nose level, so for several years there'd be the shark swimming nose down. Don't know why he wasn't fixed in a timely manner. And it was always a shock to see the sea monster's face after following his tail for a while at the end of the ride.


Here's the rest of the story


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## DaveNV (Jan 9, 2019)

mentalbreak said:


> Funny. I used to take vacation photos of only the sights (usually without people). But now the only ones I truly enjoy and treasure are the ones with loved ones — including poses at theme parks.
> 
> Looking back at photos from my teen years, just about every vacation photo includes me or one of my brothers showing some teenage attitude. My vacation rule with my kids is that we will continue to take you on vacation, but when Mom wants to stop for a photo you must participate and no grumpy face alllowed. So far they still enjoy trips with us and cooperate for photos.
> 
> And every trip, I take one or two of the best photos and order a refrigerator magnet.



I have a single female coworker who is raising a teenaged son.  She loves taking him places, and they travel often.  Disneyland, Hawaii, New York City - you name it, this kid has had a very cushy teenaged life.  Coworker loves to share her photos on Facebook, or she'll hand around her cell phone in the cafeteria at lunchtime, so people can appreciate the pictures she took of the wonderful time they had on their most recent trip.

In EVERY PICTURE, she's smiling broadly, enjoying herself completely.  Her son adopts an annoying, half-assed smile that is practically a sneer.  Or he'll close one eye, or divert his eyes from the camera.  The half-assed smile isn't like he was smiling a second ago, and the picture was too late.  It's a specific, deliberate attempt to make himself ugly, so as to screw up the picture.  And he usually succeeds.  Family photos where everyone else has a brilliant smile and faces filled with pleasure, and there in the middle is the jerk son, doing his best to ruin the picture.  

It's infuriating.  I've met the kid, and he has a beautiful smile, most likely because of all the expense his Mother spent on braces for him.   In unguarded moments, his genuine smile would light up a room.  But in these pictures, he looks like he's stoned, or stupid.

I asked my coworker about it, and she just rolls her eyes, and says, "I've tried that, it doesn't work.  He won't cooperate."

I'd love to have a serious talk with the little jerk.  He thinks he's being clever, and I think he's ruining his Mother's memories.

Dave


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## clifffaith (Jan 9, 2019)

Nooooo! Not Mr Toad's Wild Ride too!?! That train light and Devils at the end were so freakin' scary!

Our last trips to Disneyland were twice in the very early '90s on Super Bowl Sunday where rumor had it the place would be almost deserted. Lines were very short, and we were not impressed with Toon Town which had just opened a few months earlier. I expect with Downtown Disney (went there once just to meet someone for a meal and leave) and California Adventure (never been and don't ever plan to) that short lines on Bowl day are a thing of the past.


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## Brett (Jan 10, 2019)

I remember being at WDW on new years eve in the 90's and there were no lines!   We continuously went through the Haunted Mansion three times


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## bluehende (Jan 10, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I do not think the stress of Disney...the crowds and lines...has increased since 1972. I went there so many times as a kid (at least 20+ times between age 6 and 18). We used to have to wait for hours at every ride. The parking situation was horrific. After a 25 year hiatus due to these bad memories, we went back to WDW last year. It is like night and day now. No lines using Fast Passes. No parking issues staying onsite. So much entertainment options for adults. Great restaurants. Fancy hotels. All the new parks, new rides, new shows. Disney is not an amusement park anymore. I see Disney as an entertainment company.




I think it is more of a fact that there is no slow time now.  In the past we would go when it was uncrowded.  Now that time does not exist.  I would imagine summer and holidays have not changed a lot.  January and september have.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I think it is more of a fact that there is no slow time now.  In the past we would go when it was uncrowded.  Now that time does not exist.  I would imagine summer and holidays have not changed a lot.  January and september have.



All I can say is in my 20+ visits in the 1970s and 1980s, it was always crowded and there was no way around the lines. Now Fast Passes can make it seem like you are in an oasis inside of the parks. That is completely different. Maybe they should offer a cheaper ticket with no FastPasses. Then you can compare 1971 to now. Also if you compare a MK only restricted park ticket with no FastPasses (this does not exist) to a ticket that allows 4 parks with FastPasses (even if you can only visit one park per day), that would be more comparable. There does not seem to be much innovation in the Magic Kingdom. That is pretty close to what it was when they first opened.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 10, 2019)

We might be on our last set of annual passes.  (But probably not.)

We've always been able to go frugally.  (I hesitate to say cheaply, because Disney is never cheap.)

About 10 years ago, we went 4 or 5 years in a row using their Free Dining promotions.  We could get 14 nights in All Star Movies, 10 days in the parks, and 14 days of the full dining plan (one table service, one quick service, one snack) for 4 of us for about $2500.  (Looking for a friend of ours, something comparable with the current free dining plan is almost $5000 and doesn't include table service.)

After we had kid #5, outgrew rooms for 4, and discovered timeshares, we bought a 25 point DVC contract resale for under $2000.  Since then, we've bought annual passes three times (I think they were roughly $400, $500, and $600 those three times) when they had sales that made them even cheaper than the normal DVC discount.  We've more than paid for our DVC contract with those 15 annual passes.  Every time we got annual passes, we would go 3-6 times in the 365 days, for a total of 6-12 weeks.  Then we would take some time off.

Initially, we used RCI exchanges and got into 2BR DVC properties.  (THOSE WERE THE DAYS!)  Between the cost of our maintenance fees (we were typically at about $10/TPU, and it typically took 25-60 TPU) and the Disney fee, these weeks typically cost us $500-$800.  And we got full on-site perks.

When 2BR DVC properties stopped becoming available through RCI, we switched strategies to using II Short Stay Exchanges to get 6-night reservations at very nice nearby 2BR or 3BR timeshares.  If you have a lockoff with a MF under $800 (and we have several of those), split it, and use each half for two short stay exchanges, you basically get four 6-day exchange for $350-400 each.

You can still get a good deal, but it gets harder and harder.

What kills me though is that it keeps getting more and more packed.  One of our favorite times to go is in early December, in the lull between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  We went last month.  Let me tell you.  THERE IS NO LULL anymore.  I'm not sure I've seen it that packed in mid-summer.  It was crazy.  I'm familiar enough with the parks that we were able to maximize our time there (and since we were there about 2 weeks, we didn't feel like we needed to cram it all in), but it was nowhere near as enjoyable as it used to be.

And as the kids get older, it's no longer magical to them.  I'll never forget the trip when my daughter was 4.  She had a look of wonder on her face everywhere we went.  The characters were real.  Now, and 15, 13 and 8, they often don't even want to go to the parks.


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## Talent312 (Jan 10, 2019)

Brett said:


> I remember being at WDW on new years eve in the 90's and there were no lines!



Not possible these days.
The modern use of CC's (in lieu of "saving for vacation") allows the unwashed masses* to flood theme parks, every day.
*(_I include myself.)_
.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

So am I the only one who does not wait in lines at Walt Disney World?


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## paxsarah (Jan 10, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> So am I the only one who does not wait in lines at Walt Disney World?



I mentioned that I don't back on page 5, but I forgive you for not noticing it.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> I mentioned that I don't back on page 5, but I forgive you for not noticing it.



So why do some of us wait in lines and some of us do not? If I am not waiting in line, then I do not care of the parks are crowded.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Did you do a trip in 2018.  I am asking because we were planning a feb trip last year and a Jan trip this year using an annual pass.  We canceled when the complaints started on disboards about waits of over an hour in a lot of the fast pass lanes along with the slowing of ride capacity generating long lines for everything.  I will qualify that a lot of the problems seemed to come from multiple major rides breaking down over and over again.  They were giving out fast passes as compensation and it made the parks in general a mess.



This happened to us last August due to some ride breakdowns so we just left and came back later. It is not really that big a deal. You only need to stand in line if you want to wait until the ride is fixed. We never waited more than 10-20 minutes to get on a ride with a FP, often less time. I am going again in May so I will see if this was an anomaly or if my experience was normal. Last August, the trip was so incredibly pleasurable. Even my father said enjoying Disney staying on site and with FPs is a completely different experience than he ever had in the past. He always stays offsite and never used FP.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> I mentioned that I don't back on page 5, but I forgive you for not noticing it.



I missed that page. I am just reading it now.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I wasn't the one bringing up gas prices.  Also europe has huge taxes on fuels so like you said not a good comparison.  I do not have the energy to normalize european prices over almost 50 yrs to their inflation rate.  I am just trying to point out that disney's increases have outpaced inflation by a large margin.  Good for them as it seems they continued to squeeze that golden goose for a long time.  Pricing has slowed our trips from every few years to every once in a while and not in about 9 years at this point.  Last year I felt the new stuff added balanced out the cost increases and planned to go.  In park experience as expressed on the dis boards changed that.



So when was the last time you went to WDW? Do you use FPs? Do you stay onsite? WDW has had terribly long lines since it opened. I would never go to WDW unless staying onsite and using FPs. Otherwise it will be miserable as you have described. Keep in mind that DisBoards and MouseOwners are full of unhappy people who complain a lot. I do not think it is helpful to focus on inflation. In my business, I have raised prices well above the general inflation rate too and I still can't keep up with demand.


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

Luxury goods do not act like normal inflation. Luxury goods have been exceeding the CPI. I would not call Disney a luxury good but it is a premium product and a luxury in that it is not needed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrea...the-richest-people-in-the-world/#504a84791ac8

CPI is an average for a basket of goods. The CPI measures inflation as experienced by consumers in their day-to-day living expenses. It is based on the experience of the relevant average household. Prices vary wildly across products and brands.

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/questions-and-answers.htm#Question_2


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

This thread is a great example of how different people (me included) take different data and personal experiences and come up with a different explanation. No wonder our country is so divided!


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## bluehende (Jan 10, 2019)

t


TravelTime said:


> So when was the last time you went to WDW? Do you use FPs? Do you stay onsite? WDW has had terribly long lines since it opened. I would never go to WDW unless staying onsite and using FPs. Otherwise it will be miserable as you have described. Keep in mind that DisBoards and MouseOwners are full of unhappy people who complain a lot. I do not think it is helpful to focus on inflation. In my business, I have raised prices well above the general inflation rate too and I still can't keep up with demand.



My last trip was in 2010.  Yes I use fastpass and it is the implementation of fast pass + and the more rigorous time window enforcement that has decreased it's value to me.  No I do not stay on site.  The prices on site place my dollar to value ratio way over the line and to be honest I need to get out of the bubble at times.  I disagree with your characterization of disboards.  People mentioning rides down due to maintenance issues is not unhappy people complaining.  It was threads to help people plan.  Giving useful information just like tuggers do.  It is full of disney lovers and I have been a member there longer than tug.  It has been the last year or two that a lot of complaints have been raised by long term members who feel that the parks are being run differently.  No where have I said I blame disney for their price increases.  All I am saying is that their prices have risen to the point that I need longer (read more new things) before the value is there for me to go.  I brought up inflation numbers because it was commented that everything goes up.  If you get value then enjoy your trips.  On the other hand I certainly am entitled to my value calculations.


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## bluehende (Jan 10, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> This thread is a great example of how different people (me included) take different data and personal experiences and come up with a different explanation. No wonder our country is so divided!




Really.  Someone having a different opinion than you about disney is comparable to the country being divided?


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Really.  Someone having a different opinion than you about disney is comparable to the country being divided?



I was joking. Please!

I was going to say if we cannot even agree on Disney, how can we agree on the big issues in life.

Stop taking this so seriously!

We do not need to agree!


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## TravelTime (Jan 10, 2019)

I thought Fast Pass was a great technological advancement. Not everyone agrees. That is completely fine. I have only been to Disney once in the past 34 years and that was last year. I was surprised at the innovation since the 1980s and the LACK of lines and waiting using FP and staying onsite. Was it crowded? Yes. But I did not feel it.


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## Beachclubmum (Jan 11, 2019)

I thought of this thread yesterday when the bill for 2 college textbooks came to $395. My friend said she paid for $375. for her son's single book for physics. No way to get them cheaper (used/rental) due to the packets made specific to the school plus the high cost of the access code. This is happening more and more and I think it's quite the money grab by both the college and the publisher.


In other news, we are Disney pros and never wait in long line for rides. 20 minutes is my max.


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## Brett (Jan 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I was joking. Please!
> 
> I was going to say if we cannot even agree on Disney, how can we agree on the big issues in life.
> 
> ...



agreed!

how people used to avoid long lines at WDW  (not me)
https://www.today.com/news/undercover-disney-deplorable-scheme-skip-lines-6C10131266


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## TravelTime (Jan 11, 2019)

Brett said:


> agreed!
> 
> how people used to avoid long lines at WDW  (not me)
> https://www.today.com/news/undercover-disney-deplorable-scheme-skip-lines-6C10131266



That is quite a complicated scheme. There is an easier way...just rent one of those disabled scooters. LOL


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## bluehende (Jan 11, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> I thought of this thread yesterday when the bill for 2 college textbooks came to $395. My friend said she paid for $375. for her son's single book for physics. No way to get them cheaper (used/rental) due to the packets made specific to the school plus the high cost of the access code. This is happening more and more and I think it's quite the money grab by both the college and the publisher.
> 
> 
> In other news, we are Disney pros and never wait in long line for rides. 20 minutes is my max.



 As an old civil engineering major I remember the shock in 1974 for those technical book costs.  When I was a junior i remember a set of books for structures that totaled 150 dollars.  Ouch.


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## paxsarah (Jan 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> That is quite a complicated scheme. There is an easier way...just rent one of those disabled scooters. LOL



This is not the case. We've rented a scooter for my husband on our last three trips due to a mobility impairment, and on their own don't afford anyone any advantage in line. Although we often park the scooter outside of attractions and walk the queue, many queues have been updated to allow for scooters to navigate and there's a drop-off/pick-up area for the scooters where one would load and unload, if you're able to transfer. Some queues with stairs, etc. have a different entrance for scooters but they still don't generally give you a time advantage. If you're not able to transfer, then you're talking about waiting for a specialized ride vehicle to accommodate the scooter.


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## TravelTime (Jan 11, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> This is not the case. We've rented a scooter for my husband on our last three trips due to a mobility impairment, and on their own don't afford anyone any advantage in line. Although we often park the scooter outside of attractions and walk the queue, many queues have been updated to allow for scooters to navigate and there's a drop-off/pick-up area for the scooters where one would load and unload, if you're able to transfer. Some queues with stairs, etc. have a different entrance for scooters but they still don't generally give you a time advantage. If you're not able to transfer, then you're talking about waiting for a specialized ride vehicle to accommodate the scooter.



When I was with my elderly aunt last summer, we rented a scooter. Sometimes it did not save time but it often did. Fast Passes are the way to go. The scooters can make life easier in the parks due to reduced walking. I had huge blisters and swollen feet on the first day. The times I used my aunt’s scooter, I was a lot more comfortable and relaxed. Combining that with the Fast Passes made the parks easy to get around and like I have said, I barely noticed the crowds and lines.


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## clifffaith (Jan 11, 2019)

How much does a Fast Pass add to the cost of a ticket that is already over $100?


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## bluehende (Jan 11, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> How much does a Fast Pass add to the cost of a ticket that is already over $100?



There is no additional cost.  It gives you another access to 3 rides of different categories.....think the old e vs d rides.  If you are staying on site you can book them 60 days in advance.  Off site it is 30 days.  At thirty days many of the rides will be gone.  There are still some lines with fast pass but they are much shorter.  Usually a few minutes.  There have been some reports of long waits in those lines too especially when other rides go down and those fastpasses are basically exchanged for others over the normal amount given.  There is a program that let you buy some more if you stayed at a premium level of some resorts.  The fastpass gives you a window also and is not good outside the window.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 11, 2019)

Paper FastPasses used to be a great help.  We were able to rope drop, get FPs, and do pretty much every ride in the park easily.  I was always the designated FP runner, racing back and forth across the park every time we were eligible to get another FP.  On one day, I got 7 sets of Toy Story FPs.  At MK, especially, we NEVER had to wait for anything.  It wasn't difficult to collect 10-15 sets of MK FPs.

Now (if you're not staying on site), the FPs are only marginally helpful.  We were there two weeks in early December, and checking 30 days in advance we were not able to get FPs for any of the newer attractions (Flight of Passage, Na'vi River Journey, Mine Train, and Slinky Dog Dash).  Several others (Toy Story Mania, Soarin', Test Track, and Frozen Ever After) were not available on most days and only times that didn't help us on other days.  We ended up using FPs for second-tier attractions that ten years ago were often "walk on" (but now aren't).  Even some of those second-tier attractions had poor FP availability.  Many times, we didn't even get three that were useful.

We adjusted our plans accordingly to minimize our waits.  But in doing so, we accomplished quite a bit less than we used to be able to do.

Looking up numbers, I see that MK attendance increased from 17.23 million in 2009 to 20.45 million in 2017.  EPCOT grew from 11 million to 12.25 million.  AK grew from 9.5 million to 12.5 million.  HS grew from 9.7 million to 10.75 million (and closed about half of the attractions).  On average, they have 20% more people in the parks every day than they did less than a decade ago.  With the growth in attendance, they really need to open up a bunch of new high-capacity attractions.  (And I'm talking about ADDITIONAL attractions, not just closing some and building new ones in the same space.)  And as much as I like FP, I think FP just exasperates the situation.  When about half of the people riding are using FPs, it takes twice as long to move the standby line through.  That's why many attractions (like Spaceship Earth) that seldom used to have a wait now have fairly sizeable wait times now that they have a FP line.


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## bluehende (Jan 11, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> Paper FastPasses used to be a great help.  We were able to rope drop, get FPs, and do pretty much every ride in the park easily.  I was always the designated FP runner, racing back and forth across the park every time we were eligible to get another FP.  On one day, I got 7 sets of Toy Story FPs.  At MK, especially, we NEVER had to wait for anything.  It wasn't difficult to collect 10-15 sets of MK FPs.
> 
> Now (if you're not staying on site), the FPs are only marginally helpful.  We were there two weeks in early December, and checking 30 days in advance we were not able to get FPs for any of the newer attractions (Flight of Passage, Na'vi River Journey, Mine Train, and Slinky Dog Dash).  Several others (Toy Story Mania, Soarin', Test Track, and Frozen Ever After) were not available on most days and only times that didn't help us on other days.  We ended up using FPs for second-tier attractions that ten years ago were often "walk on" (but now aren't).  Even some of those second-tier attractions had poor FP availability.  Many times, we didn't even get three that were useful.
> 
> ...



I am the same way.  I loved the old fastpass system.  I clocked a lot of miles getting them for the family.  You are a pro getting 7 for Toy Story.  My best was probably 2  I see why disney switched to a new fast pass system that fills the rooms.  The spaceship earth comment is disheartening.  We went early December when my youngest was still napping.  My older son and I would meet the wife coming back from nap at spaceship earth.  We would ride the ride over and over again until my wife showed up.  That was always a slow time.  After Thanksgiving and before the Christmas rush.  Was that trip this year?  I know last december was a nightmare.  The hope was it was an aberration due to the Hurricanes.


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## TravelTime (Jan 11, 2019)

We were able to use our 3 Fast Passes and book more as well as change before the visit and during the visit. We rarely had any problem getting what we want. I changed our plans almost daily. I guess Fast Passes are for obsessive-compulsives like me.


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## TravelTime (Jan 11, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> Paper FastPasses used to be a great help.  We were able to rope drop, get FPs, and do pretty much every ride in the park easily.  I was always the designated FP runner, racing back and forth across the park every time we were eligible to get another FP.  On one day, I got 7 sets of Toy Story FPs.  At MK, especially, we NEVER had to wait for anything.  It wasn't difficult to collect 10-15 sets of MK FPs.
> 
> Now (if you're not staying on site), the FPs are only marginally helpful.  We were there two weeks in early December, and checking 30 days in advance we were not able to get FPs for any of the newer attractions (Flight of Passage, Na'vi River Journey, Mine Train, and Slinky Dog Dash).  Several others (Toy Story Mania, Soarin', Test Track, and Frozen Ever After) were not available on most days and only times that didn't help us on other days.  We ended up using FPs for second-tier attractions that ten years ago were often "walk on" (but now aren't).  Even some of those second-tier attractions had poor FP availability.  Many times, we didn't even get three that were useful.
> 
> ...



It sounds like Disney needs to expand and open up new parks. I would love to see them open a new park in a really cool destination. Not sure if this is true or not, but I heard they wanted to expand into Mexico but Mexico said no bc they did not want their culture usurped. Mexico would have been an amazing location.


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## Talent312 (Jan 12, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> ...That's why many attractions (like Spaceship Earth) that seldom used to have a wait now have fairly sizeable wait times now that they have a FP line.



I can't remember when it was, but recently at Spaceship Earth, our FP didn't start for 15 min; meanwhile, stand-by was only 10. We cancelled our FP and used it for somethin' else (Mission: Space, I think).

If you're on you're 'puter at 7AM ET, 30 days out, and flexible with your time, you can score FP's for some high-demand rides (Na'vi River, Frozen, Soarin').

.


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## paxsarah (Jan 12, 2019)

At this moment 30 days out, the only rides that are unavailable are Mine Train, Slinky Dog, Avatar Flights of Passage, and Kali River Rapids (which is under refurbishment). The only attractions without morning availability at MK are Belle and Peter Pan, at Epcot is Frozen, DHS the rest all have morning FP available, and AK Navi and Kilimanjaro Safaris availability starts in the noon hour. Admittedly, February 11 is a pretty slow time even in this era of no slow times, but I could easily make a workable touring plan out of that.


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> At this moment 30 days out, the only rides that are unavailable are Mine Train, Slinky Dog, Avatar Flights of Passage, and Kali River Rapids (which is under refurbishment). The only attractions without morning availability at MK are Belle and Peter Pan, at Epcot is Frozen, DHS the rest all have morning FP available, and AK Navi and Kilimanjaro Safaris availability starts in the noon hour. Admittedly, February 11 is a pretty slow time even in this era of no slow times, but I could easily make a workable touring plan out of that.





I think it is interesting that the list not available at 30 days out is every new thing since my last visit quite a while ago.  Frozen may be in that category if you consider it new as opposed to a refurb of an old ride.


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## fiat1bmw (Jan 12, 2019)

Disney is making price part of the product.  The fact that it now costs so much is bragging rights to all your friends and neighbors that you were able to afford to go to DW.

Glad we took our daughter there 12 years ago (and since then) before the tickets went through the roof.  My understanding is that the only way to buy multi-day tickets is to use them within a 10-day window or so.  No more buying a 7-day all-park ticket and using them over a few years - which is exactly the intent.


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## BOZO (Jan 12, 2019)

DrQ said:


> *Disney World is getting so expensive that it's pricing out the middle class*
> Steve Cameron
> 
> Jan. 2, 2019, 5:43 PM
> ...


----------



## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> At this moment 30 days out, the only rides that are unavailable are Mine Train, Slinky Dog, Avatar Flights of Passage, and Kali River Rapids (which is under refurbishment). The only attractions without morning availability at MK are Belle and Peter Pan, at Epcot is Frozen, DHS the rest all have morning FP available, and AK Navi and Kilimanjaro Safaris availability starts in the noon hour. Admittedly, February 11 is a pretty slow time even in this era of no slow times, but I could easily make a workable touring plan out of that.



This is what I found for last August, which is high season. I am very perplexed as to why some of us have an easy time booking what we want and some of have a hard time. It should be consistent, I would think. I am re-planning my trip for May and I have had very little problems with re-booking rooms and changing dining reservations. It is too early for FPs but I assume it will be easier now since mid-May is less popular than early August when kids are out of school.


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## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

fiat1bmw said:


> Disney is making price part of the product.  The fact that it now costs so much is bragging rights to all your friends and neighbors that you were able to afford to go to DW.
> 
> Glad we took our daughter there 12 years ago (and since then) before the tickets went through the roof.  My understanding is that the only way to buy multi-day tickets is to use them within a 10-day window or so.  No more buying a 7-day all-park ticket and using them over a few years - which is exactly the intent.



Bragging rights! Yah! Thank you Mr you know who.


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## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I think it is interesting that the list not available at 30 days out is every new thing since my last visit quite a while ago.  Frozen may be in that category if you consider it new as opposed to a refurb of an old ride.



I am confused by your comment. What do you mean by “the list”?


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## Talent312 (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I am confused by your comment. What do you mean by “the list”?



I think the intent was: "the list *[of] *not available *[rides]*..."


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## paxsarah (Jan 12, 2019)

Of which there were three. Three unavailable rides out of four parks is pretty good, I would think!


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I am confused by your comment. What do you mean by “the list”?



The list of fast passes unavailable.


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> Of which there were three. Three unavailable rides out of four parks is pretty good, I would think!


Except if those are the only attractions you have never seen even though you were there 10 yrs ago.  Then it is a list that says you can get fast passes for all the rides you have already done, but to see something new you will wait.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> At this moment 30 days out, the only rides that are unavailable are Mine Train, Slinky Dog, Avatar Flights of Passage, and Kali River Rapids (which is under refurbishment). The only attractions without morning availability at MK are Belle and Peter Pan, at Epcot is Frozen, DHS the rest all have morning FP available, and AK Navi and Kilimanjaro Safaris availability starts in the noon hour. Admittedly, February 11 is a pretty slow time even in this era of no slow times, but I could easily make a workable touring plan out of that.



Very nice! I just looked and am seeing the same. It was nowhere near this easy in early December.

We will be back in May, so I’m hopeful that it’ll be as easy then. Although we will be in timeshares, I booked one night at Fort Wilderness partially so we can book a couple days of FPs 60 days out. We will make those two days AK and HS so we can get Flight of Passage and Slinky Dog Dash. We will also be doing a Moonlight Magic through DVC.


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## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

I am still perplexed as to why some people have so much trouble booking and some of us have it easy.


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

Just for giggles I checked the current wait times for the magic kingdom.  I think we can agree that this is slow time.  Every major attraction except It's a small world has an hour wait.  The mine ride has a 2 hr wait.  Sounds like fun to me.


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## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Except if those are the only attractions you have never seen even though you were there 10 yrs ago.  Then it is a list that says you can get fast passes for all the rides you have already done, but to see something new you will wait.



Stop being so negative! LOL


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> Very nice! I just looked and am seeing the same. It was nowhere near this easy in early December.
> 
> We will be back in May, so I’m hopeful that it’ll be as easy then. Although we will be in timeshares, I booked one night at Fort Wilderness partially so we can book a couple days of FPs 60 days out. We will make those two days AK and HS so we can get Flight of Passage and Slinky Dog Dash. We will also be doing a Moonlight Magic through DVC.



That is a pro move.  Can you still cancel and keep the fast passes?


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## TravelTime (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Just for giggles I checked the current wait times for the magic kingdom.  I think we can agree that this is slow time.  Every major attraction except It's a small world has an hour wait.  The mine ride has a 2 hr wait.  Sounds like fun to me.



Are those non-FP wait times? If so, an hour wait is great! LOL


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Stop being so negative! LOL



Take off the rose colored glasses


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## MichaelColey (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> That is a pro move.  Can you still cancel and keep the fast passes?



I’m not sure. POSSIBLY at exactly 30 days out. I don’t want to risk it. I don’t mind paying $80-100 for all of that. 

We’ve done similar things at Universal and Aulani. We will stay at a timeshare (usually a 2BR Marriott) and book one night just to get access to the perks (Flash Pass at Universal ROCKS! and Aulani is incredible) for a couple days.


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## paxsarah (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Except if those are the only attractions you have never seen even though you were there 10 yrs ago.  Then it is a list that says you can get fast passes for all the rides you have already done, but to see something new you will wait.



If the last time you were there was 10 years ago, then here's the list of attractions for which there _are_ fastpasses available 30 days out that you've never seen:

MK - Enchanted Tales with Belle
MK - Under the Sea: Journey of the Little Mermaid
Epcot - Frozen Ever After
DHS - Alien Swirling Saucers
DHS - Frozen Singalong
AK - Na'vi River Journey
AK - Rivers of Light
I didn't include a number of new character meetings that have FP or new entertainment/shows that don't have FP (such as the delightful Muppets presentations on American history in MK). Soarin' has a new movie and Test Track has a completely new overlay and car design experience. For the three that don't have FP available at 30 days, it's very feasible to either visit them at rope drop or right before closing (depending on your early bird vs. night owl tendencies) and wait a more reasonable time, probably less than 90 minutes.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Are those non-FP wait times? If so, an hour wait is great! LOL



Definitely different perspectives here. Between rope drop, FPs, and knowing which attractions start getting busy at what times, we seldom wait even 15 minutes for anything. But it was much harder last month than we’ve ever seen.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> MK - Enchanted Tales with Belle
> MK - Under the Sea: Journey of the Little Mermaid
> Epcot - Frozen Ever After
> DHS - Alien Swirling Saucers
> ...



We did the Frozen Sing-Along for the first time last month (mainly to torment our oldest son who hates Frozen), and it was surprisingly good. Don’t need a FP for it.

Another first for us was the Muppets show outside of the Hall of Presidents. Never knew about it and not sure how long they’ve been doing it, but it was awesome!

(And of course Toy Story Land, which was awesome but crazy crowded.)


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Are those non-FP wait times? If so, an hour wait is great! LOL



I think this is where our differences lie.  After an hour or two in line I would not be able to walk and be in severe pain.  Some of us have  a hard time standing in one place for that long.  Hour long waits are physically impossible for me past maybe two. In the past I have been able to go to a place I truly do love and be able to go on these rides with a few minutes wait and even a walk on at low crowd times.  The top rides we were able to fast pass and therefore over a two week period we saw all the major attractions and looped others all day for our enjoyment.  A good example is that buzz lightyear we would ride 10 times with no line.  It currently has a 45 minute wait.  I just checked our pictures and we were there at the exact same time.  This is why I say it is a different and not better experience.  Prices have risen considerably to do in a day what I used to be able to do in 30 minutes while being shut out of anything new.


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## paxsarah (Jan 12, 2019)

bluehende said:


> A good example is that buzz lightyear we would ride 10 times with no line.



Ever since they added the ability to schedule your 4th+ fastpass in the app, we've been able to ride Buzz multiple times in a row with little wait. After you use your initial three fastpasses, you can use the app to get another one, and as soon as you tap into the FP line you can start searching for your next one. When my kid was gunning to score 999,999, I would frequently (typically in the early evening) be able to schedule my next Buzz fastpass after we had entered the fastpass line and before getting in the ride vehicle. Not 10 times, but 1-2 times in the afternoon, and 3-4 after dinner. Magic Kingdom is the best park for this, because the rides aren't separated into tiers, and there are so many of them. Granted, we don't travel at Christmas, Easter, or the height of summer (typically early March or late May), but we typically get ahead of my touring plans in MK because we've been able to keep booking fastpasses after our initial three.


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> If the last time you were there was 10 years ago, then here's the list of attractions for which there _are_ fastpasses available 30 days out that you've never seen:
> 
> MK - Enchanted Tales with Belle
> MK - Under the Sea: Journey of the Little Mermaid
> ...



In my mind I was thinking major attractions.  Navi and FEA probably fit that bill and I would have interest in.  It is good to see those available.  When I was planning and canceled last year neither of those would have been available due to toy story land not being open yet.  I assume that is taking a little pressure off.  We rope drop and also shutdown.  We take a break mid day if we are tired.


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## bluehende (Jan 12, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> I’m not sure. POSSIBLY at exactly 30 days out. I don’t want to risk it. I don’t mind paying $80-100 for all of that.
> 
> We’ve done similar things at Universal and Aulani. We will stay at a timeshare (usually a 2BR Marriott) and book one night just to get access to the perks (Flash Pass at Universal ROCKS! and Aulani is incredible) for a couple days.



Yeah I would not chance it.  I know it used to be a strategy that worked.  You book fast passes then cancel your room.  It did create problems for disney with the number of cancellations when word got out.  I think they figured out a way to link the cancellation so the fast pass was cancelled too.


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## DeeCee (Jan 12, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> No, no and no. It was not a renewal. I am not a Florida resident. I live in California. And I did not buy DVC retail.
> 
> I got the great pricing as a DVC member. Most people are not going to get any great perks without DVC. Disney is going to be expensive and stressful and crowded because people try to economize by staying off site. The DVC member perks pay for themselves in money and time savings.



Right now the Platinum (no black out dates) Annual Pass price for a new pass, not a renewal, for DVC members is $749 plus tax.
I don't think it went up $200 since last year. Perhaps you bought the Gold Annual Pass, which new for DVC members this year is priced at $609 plus tax. The renewal is $517 plus tax. Your pricing for last year sounds like a new Gold Annual Pass at the DVC discount.

Being a DVC member who used to buy the AP's, I can say it was a significant savings over regular park passes if used often throughout the year. I haven't purchased, and am not going to purchase, the AP's anymore. 
After almost 19 years of Disney trips and with increasing prices not only on passes, but dining, etc. as well, we tend to only go into the parks 2 or three days a year.....and we're still working on those No Expire Passes, that now expire in 2030. Hmmmm....


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## LannyPC (Jan 12, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> The unwashed masses seem immune to whatever they charge.



Hence, the unmitigated price increases.


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## LannyPC (Jan 12, 2019)

bbodb1 said:


> I wonder how many people are risking their fiscal stability for a few days at WDW.



I wonder the same thing about NFL playoff tickets, especially the Super Bowl.

P.S.  Sorry this is a little off topic but it's applicable at this time of year.


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## Beachclubmum (Jan 13, 2019)

Wait!  Non-expiring tickets will expire in 2030??? I missed that announcement.

(Tried to quote Dee Cee)


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## glypnirsgirl (Jan 13, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> So am I the only one who does not wait in lines at Walt Disney World?


We don't wait in lines, either. We are absolute Disney nuts. You know when you get to the park an hour before rope drop and there are 4 people in line ahead of you? 

Two of them are us. We get up at 5:30, get dressed and are waiting for the first bus to pick us up. If we are not able to put our bellies against the turnstile (aka being the first in line), my husband considers it a failure.

We race to the first attraction that we want to see and get on, go, and race around to do it again. This is because in most parks, we have a single favorite ride that we will do over and over. And our favorites are not necessarily the big block-busters (but sometimes they are). At Magic Kingdom, we always fastpass Peter Pan, Splash Mountain and Buzz Lightyear. Many days we don't do SpaceMountain at all. It's Buzz and Splash that we will do over and over. 

At DHS, it's Toy Story Midway Mania. And I love Slinkydog, too. And Little Mermaid show. (I actively dislike the Disney Jr. sing-a-long). I love the Muppet Show. We love StarTours. 

We get our FastPasses at 60 days so that we know that we can get on our favorites. We head back to the room at 11:30 and frequently we don't go back to the parks. I won't do lines. 

The manic pace that we do for 3 hours is not for everyone. Standing in lines is not for us.

We are taking our 4 year old granddaughter for her 5th birthday ---- just 4 year old and two grandparents. I am looking more forward to it than any trip we have done in years. 

I bought Disney Vacation Club points when that is what it was called --- just Disney Vacation Club. I couple of years later, they renamed it Old Key West. Best money I have ever spent.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 13, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> Paper FastPasses used to be a great help.  We were able to rope drop, get FPs, and do pretty much every ride in the park easily.  I was always the designated FP runner, racing back and forth across the park every time we were eligible to get another FP.  On one day, I got 7 sets of Toy Story FPs.  At MK, especially, we NEVER had to wait for anything.  It wasn't difficult to collect 10-15 sets of MK FPs.
> 
> Now (if you're not staying on site), the FPs are only marginally helpful.  We were there two weeks in early December, and checking 30 days in advance we were not able to get FPs for any of the newer attractions (Flight of Passage, Na'vi River Journey, Mine Train, and Slinky Dog Dash).  Several others (Toy Story Mania, Soarin', Test Track, and Frozen Ever After) were not available on most days and only times that didn't help us on other days.  We ended up using FPs for second-tier attractions that ten years ago were often "walk on" (but now aren't).  Even some of those second-tier attractions had poor FP availability.  Many times, we didn't even get three that were useful.
> 
> ...



This post is spot on.  We used to take great advantage of FP, when we got the paper passes.  We would go early, wait for rope drop, go directly tothe ride we wanted to ride first, Rick would get FP's while I went to the line.  This worked especially well for Toy Story Mania.  We worked the system well, and we would hear people say, "Hey how are these people getting to skip the lines?"  And someone in their party would answer, "It cost more to use that Fast Pass system."  Nope.  Only in Universal does it cost more.  It was free, and we used and abused it. When FP+ arrived, suddenly everyone knew that it was a benefit included in the ticket, and even rides that were never busy had lines, because now you can get a FP+ for that ride.  

The changes to the FP+ have been horrible for us because we generally do not stay onsite.  We choose accommodations at timeshares we love, especially Marriott's Cypress Harbour.  I would rather stay there than a Disney one bedroom via exchange, and there are generally just two of us.  Plus, I always have quite a few deposits in II.

I have gotten Disney exchanges for our kids in the past, and they love staying onsite, but the lack of 2 bedrooms is disappointing to our daughter, who really liked those for keeping the kids in separate beds.

We rode Flight of Passage a few times this past year, but we always went before opening and waited in lines.  The shortest wait was about 45 minutes, which was not bad at all, considering the difficulty of getting up early to arrive at the park by 8 AM (one hour before regular people could get in).


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

DeeCee said:


> Right now the Platinum (no black out dates) Annual Pass price for a new pass, not a renewal, for DVC members is $749 plus tax.
> I don't think it went up $200 since last year. Perhaps you bought the Gold Annual Pass, which new for DVC members this year is priced at $609 plus tax. The renewal is $517 plus tax. Your pricing for last year sounds like a new Gold Annual Pass at the DVC discount.
> 
> Being a DVC member who used to buy the AP's, I can say it was a significant savings over regular park passes if used often throughout the year. I haven't purchased, and am not going to purchase, the AP's anymore.
> After almost 19 years of Disney trips and with increasing prices not only on passes, but dining, etc. as well, we tend to only go into the parks 2 or three days a year.....and we're still working on those No Expire Passes, that now expire in 2030. Hmmmm....



It is a Platinum Plus pass. It’s still valid right now since I activated it last August. It allows unlimited entry into all parks including park hopper. There was a 25% discount for DVC members in 2017. You were allowed to activate the annual pass anytime in 2018.

You've successfully added a _Walt Disney World_® Annual Pass to *My Disney Experience* for XX.
*The Pass:*

DVC Member Platinum Plus Pass - New Certificate


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## am1 (Jan 13, 2019)

glypnirsgirl said:


> We don't wait in lines, either. We are absolute Disney nuts. You know when you get to the park an hour before rope drop and there are 4 people in line ahead of you?
> 
> Two of them are us. We get up at 5:30, get dressed and are waiting for the first bus to pick us up. If we are not able to put our bellies against the turnstile (aka being the first in line), my husband considers it a failure.
> 
> ...


Other then waiting in line for the rope drop and probably the first bus.  

Do people frown on parents using one fast past for the young child and parent? I did it over 19 days when we had our season pass.  Only questioned by one employee the whole time and I told him my son was too small to go on the ride himself. Figured it out when there were not enough fast passes available for the 4 of us.  So we did six fast passes, a parade, show, little kid rides with no line and would call it a day.  Really good when it was just my son and I when we used my other sons and wife's.  

My guess is for some it would be worth buy two annual passes so each get more fast passes per day.


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## Big Matt (Jan 13, 2019)

I am very similar to you, but at about 11:30 we grab lunch somewhere and then hit a couple of things that are easy to get and in air conditioning like Philharmagic, Hall of Presidents, or Carousel of Progress in MK.  Tons like that in Epcot and Studios.  We then wander around and shop and maybe get ice cream, watch a parade and leave.  Maybe go back for fireworks later.  

The other thing we do a lot of is go visit other resorts using Disney transportation such as boat to Wilderness Lodge, Boats to and from Disney Springs, etc.  I refuse to even get in line if it is more than 15 minutes standby.  I always see everything I want.



glypnirsgirl said:


> We don't wait in lines, either. We are absolute Disney nuts. You know when you get to the park an hour before rope drop and there are 4 people in line ahead of you?
> 
> Two of them are us. We get up at 5:30, get dressed and are waiting for the first bus to pick us up. If we are not able to put our bellies against the turnstile (aka being the first in line), my husband considers it a failure.
> 
> ...


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

Okay, so for anyone who is hating Disney due to increased prices and crowds, here is an even better reason to be upset. I am taking off my rose colored glasses for a few minutes. LOL

https://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories/disney-ceo-bob-igers-pay-increased-to-65-6-million-in-2018/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+disney-updates+(Disney+Updates+-+wdwinfo.com)

Disney will need to keep raising prices to keep their executives fed.


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## silentg (Jan 13, 2019)

I always go to the My Disney Experience on the computer.
Get fast passes there, make dining reservations there and plan the day around fast pass schedule.
In all the years I’ve been going to Disney, I only saw the rope drop once, about 5 years ago, when the city turned off the water at my house for repair in the street. Got up early with my Mum and we headed to Disney for a few hours. I miss going to the parks with her. Now my Daughter has a annual pass so we are planning to go together a lot this year.
We still enjoy Disney and have a AP for weekdays . I also discovered there is a designated turnstyle for Annual Pass holders and free parking, just a couple of perks, but I’ll take them! Oh yes,  I live in Florida so Disney is my playground.
Silentg


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## bankr63 (Jan 13, 2019)

Just stumbled upon this discussion thanks to the weekly newsletter.

As a regular Orlando vacationer, and owner of two Orlando timeshares, I am okay with the price increases.  I agree that the parks keep getting busier and Disney has to do _something_ to control the crowds.  Short of limiting attendance and holding lotteries to determine who gets to go (imagine THAT!), the only capitalist thing to do is to raise prices to what the market will bear while maintaining quality.  It is a tough balancing act.  I'd rather pay more to go to a park that is less crowded and have a better experience than pay less for a jam packed park and a lousy experience.  We have been attending regularly for 10+ years now (a lot less than some here, but quite a few visits) and really haven't noticed that much of a change.  If you know what you are doing (learn to turn left when the crowd goes right, follow a good touring plan, maximize FP and now FP+, etc.), then Disney is still a great experience.  I should add that every one of our visits has been on our provincial March break (DW is a teacher) which I think has also been FL's March break every time, so crowds are generally pretty high.

As the kids grew (they no longer come along) we graduated to USF and IOA with the bigger faster rides.  Over the years we have discovered just how much Central Florida actually has to offer, there is so much to do without stepping foot on Disney property that Orlando remains our go to vacation.  Looking at the price quotes above, I will continue to buy tickets for Disney in the future - last year's trip saw me use the last main park attractions on my 10 day NEWPFAM tickets bought for somewhere around $500 back around 2010 (everyone else in the family still has a few visits left).  I don't think that $100ish per day is out of line with the value of the experience.  I think the Disney park prices provide similar entertainment value to the other area attractions (USF, IOA, SeaWorld, Kennedy, LL etc).  I do think that $65 for the waterparks is getting out of line with comparable attractions, but I still have 5 or 6 'and more' left on my ticket, so lots of time for that to correct.  

Overall our vacation costs have actually declined annually as we have learned how to do it smartly.  Our accommodation costs are fixed and reasonable, I pay more per night at the HIExpress or Hampton Inn on the drive down than I pay for our timeshare.  Switching to driving has greatly decreased our vacation costs, but I actually enjoy the 24 hour drive down from Canada.  Overall a week at Disney costs us about 1-2% of our annual gross household income - that's okay with me.

I guess I too am starting to rant a bit, but to the OP's point, Disney is not (yet) pricing out the middle class simply because the parks keep getting more and more full of middle class Americans (and Canadians, Mexicans, Brits, Chinese, you name it).  Disney does appear to be _trying_ to price some out to control its product experience, but they are having a pretty tough go of it!


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## Big Matt (Jan 13, 2019)

Silentg, I would do it just the same as you if I lived near the parks.  Go for a couple hours or go all day.  Very simple if you have the annual pass.  No pressure and way more fun.


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

bankr63 said:


> Just stumbled upon this discussion thanks to the weekly newsletter.
> 
> As a regular Orlando vacationer, and owner of two Orlando timeshares, I am okay with the price increases.  I agree that the parks keep getting busier and Disney has to do _something_ to control the crowds.  Short of limiting attendance and holding lotteries to determine who gets to go (imagine THAT!), the only capitalist thing to do is to raise prices to what the market will bear while maintaining quality.  It is a tough balancing act.  I'd rather pay more to go to a park that is less crowded and have a better experience than pay less for a jam packed park and a lousy experience.  We have been attending regularly for 10+ years now (a lot less than some here, but quite a few visits) and really haven't noticed that much of a change.  If you know what you are doing (learn to turn left when the crowd goes right, follow a good touring plan, maximize FP and now FP+, etc.), then Disney is still a great experience.  I should add that every one of our visits has been on our provincial March break (DW is a teacher) which I think has also been FL's March break every time, so crowds are generally pretty high.
> 
> ...



I agree with you. There are many ways to get a great Disney experience but it appears to be limited to those of us who know how to take advantage of them and/or who are DVC members with all the extra advantages.


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## jpd88 (Jan 13, 2019)

Back in 1986 or 87, I vowed to NEVER to visit Disney Orlando between Christmas and New Years Eve because of the crowd.  Our daughter was 7 or 8.  Never say never!  Just returned from the most crowded place we've ever been.  Got on 2 rides with my 8 year old grandson.  Upon leaving one park, I noticed that the posted wait time for a popular attraction was 4.5 hours!  Walt Disney would be ashamed at what his once acclaimed "quality family time" park has become.  I don't consider standing in line with family "quality time".  $50 for priority one day parking is outrageous, but it's par for this course.  One time in the mid-80s I discovered that the optimal visit date was a weekday between Thanksgiving and Christmas ....got to every attraction we wanted and with nary a 10 minute wait.  Lived in Florida during the 80's; now in California and family planned this trip so as not to have grandson miss any school days.  I'm finished with Disney.  We'll hike/bike/ski the Sierra Nevada mountains in lieu of crowded/expensive theme parks.  That's quality family time.


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## TravelTime (Jan 13, 2019)

jpd88 said:


> Back in 1986 or 87, I vowed to NEVER to visit Disney Orlando between Christmas and New Years Eve because of the crowd.  Our daughter was 7 or 8.  Never say never!  Just returned from the most crowded place we've ever been.  Got on 2 rides with my 8 year old grandson.  Upon leaving one park, I noticed that the posted wait time for a popular attraction was 4.5 hours!  Walt Disney would be ashamed at what his once acclaimed "quality family time" park has become.  I don't consider standing in line with family "quality time".  $50 for priority one day parking is outrageous, but it's par for this course.  One time in the mid-80s I discovered that the optimal visit date was a weekday between Thanksgiving and Christmas ....got to every attraction we wanted and with nary a 10 minute wait.  Lived in Florida during the 80's; now in California and family planned this trip so as not to have grandson miss any school days.  I'm finished with Disney.  We'll hike/bike/ski the Sierra Nevada mountains in lieu of crowded/expensive theme parks.  That's quality family time.



I am not sure that skiing on popular days at the Sierra Nevada ski resorts would be any better than going to Disney. Holidays at the California ski resorts are absolutely nuts and super expensive. We are season passholders at Squaw and we avoid holidays. We do not even consider Northstar anymore because the line to get up to where the lifts are is way more crowded compared to Squaw. We just left Squaw and the parking lot was full by 9:30 am. We got there at 8:45 am and as were were leaving, we said someone got lucky to get our parking spot. Even at 8:45, we had to park a lot further away this year than last year. Thankfully we also have a season locker and do not need walk in boots and haul gear. I would not call skiing a less expensive or less crowded family vacation.


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## ba2471 (Jan 13, 2019)

https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/disney-ceo-bob-iger-got-an-80-percent-pay-raise-in-2018


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## paxsarah (Jan 13, 2019)

am1 said:


> Do people frown on parents using one fast past for the young child and parent?



Do you mean when the child is under 3 and doesn't require a ticket? That's how it's supposed to work - no ticket, no fastpass necessary (or even possible). If the child is over 3 and used a ticket to enter a park, the child and anyone who enters the fastpass line requires a fastpass. Period.


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## mentalbreak (Jan 13, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> Wait!  Non-expiring tickets will expire in 2030??? I missed that announcement.
> 
> (Tried to quote Dee Cee)


No. They show an expiration in the system, but Disney has stated they still have no expiration. And I believe them - they have a track record of honoring what they have sold in the past when things have changed on a going forward basis.


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## Talent312 (Jan 13, 2019)

Some older Disney tickets with no expiration may be transferable.
You may want to include these in your Will.
.


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## paxsarah (Jan 13, 2019)

Talent312 said:


> Some older Disney tickets with no expiration may be transferable.
> You may want to include these in your Will.
> .



If they haven't been used, they are transferable. If they have been, they are attached to the individual who's used it.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 13, 2019)

bluehende said:


> The top rides we were able to fast pass and therefore over a two week period we saw all the major attractions and looped others all day for our enjoyment.  A good example is that buzz lightyear we would ride 10 times with no line.  It currently has a 45 minute wait.  I just checked our pictures and we were there at the exact same time.  This is why I say it is a different and not better experience.



Great example, and I think these new waits are largely due to FPs. There never used to be a wait for Buzz. We used to do Buzz over and over, walk on. (I almost always get 999,999.) It has a very high hourly capacity. Now, it’s is regularly 30-45 minutes outside of the first hour after the park opens. The only thing that changed is FP+. 50-70% of the riders are FP+, so there is less standby capacity and the lines build.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 13, 2019)

What Disney really needs to do is to build more high capacity, smaller footprint attractions, to “soak up” some of the extra people. Attendance has grown by 20% over the past 10 years. They’ve freshened things up by replacing and changing attractions, but they haven’t increased total ride capacity anywhere near as much as attendance.

Toy Story Land is a great example. On the surface, it looks like two brand new rides (additional capacity), but only one of those is high capacity (Slinky Dog Dash), the new land takes a TON of space, and they actually closed quite a few things (Back Lot Tour, Lights Motors Action and more) to make room for it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was actually a net loss in total ride capacity.


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## joestein (Jan 14, 2019)

….


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## presley (Jan 14, 2019)

joestein said:


> ….


I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## bbodb1 (Jan 14, 2019)

joestein said:


> ….


----


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## Goofy6294 (Jan 14, 2019)

Just ran across this conversation in the weekly newsletter.  I'm a huge fan of pretty much all things Disney, especially WDW since my first trip twenty years ago.  We typically travel as a group of 5 or 6 these days with the kids, so on-site stays are pretty much out of the question for us (we love Wyndham Bonnet Creek).  Even so, getting to the parks early to hit the high-demand attractions, taking a break at lunch or visiting the high-capacity rides, and then returning late in the evening is always a good strategy for reducing your chances of spending the day in lines.  Typically, if the wait for an attraction is greater than 20 minutes, we won't go on it.

The measuring stick that I use for valuing WDW tickets is our local amusement park.  It's about $55 for a day ticket that covers the water park and a few small coasters and other amusement rides.  The highest priced day ticket to the Magic Kingdom at WDW is about $138.  Considering the quality and quantity of attractions, I consider both of these tickets to be equal in value.  And if your WDW trip is multi-day, your cost per day can easily drop to the $60-$70/day range depending on your ticket choices.  That makes it a no-brainer for me.


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## bizaro86 (Jan 14, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> What Disney really needs to do is to build more high capacity, smaller footprint attractions, to “soak up” some of the extra people. Attendance has grown by 20% over the past 10 years. They’ve freshened things up by replacing and changing attractions, but they haven’t increased total ride capacity anywhere near as much as attendance.
> 
> Toy Story Land is a great example. On the surface, it looks like two brand new rides (additional capacity), but only one of those is high capacity (Slinky Dog Dash), the new land takes a TON of space, and they actually closed quite a few things (Back Lot Tour, Lights Motors Action and more) to make room for it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was actually a net loss in total ride capacity.



I've often wondered if there would be a way to add more capacity to existing rides. Add a second loop to Buzz, more theatres to Star Tours, etc. While that would cost money without adding any new rides, they are probably to the point where straight up capacity adds would pay off.


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## TravelTime (Jan 14, 2019)

presley said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself.



Bummer, poster removed his post. I wonder what he said.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 14, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> I've often wondered if there would be a way to add more capacity to existing rides. Add a second loop to Buzz, more theatres to Star Tours, etc. While that would cost money without adding any new rides, they are probably to the point where straight up capacity adds would pay off.



They can and have done that, but it only makes sense with certain rides.  They added an extra track to Toy Story Mania sometime within the past few years.

Buzz would be more difficult, but a few attractions like Star Tours, Flight of Passage, Soarin', Space Mountain, Tower of Terror, and Mission Space have multiple tracks.  Theoretically, some of those could be expanded by adding even more tracks/rooms.

For most of their attractions, they get high capacity by having fast, frequent loading.  For instance, Figment is able to handle about 2000 people per hour because a new set of ride vehicles leaves about every 60 seconds.  Although the ride lasts 6 minutes, you're only in each section for a minute.  It also has a relatively small footprint.  These are the types of rides I think they should be including (along with the headliner rides) in the new or reimagined lands.  If they can give people more things to ride, it'll help ease the lines everywhere.


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## TravelTime (Jan 14, 2019)

Goofy6294 said:


> Just ran across this conversation in the weekly newsletter.  I'm a huge fan of pretty much all things Disney, especially WDW since my first trip twenty years ago.  We typically travel as a group of 5 or 6 these days with the kids, so on-site stays are pretty much out of the question for us (we love Wyndham Bonnet Creek).  Even so, getting to the parks early to hit the high-demand attractions, taking a break at lunch or visiting the high-capacity rides, and then returning late in the evening is always a good strategy for reducing your chances of spending the day in lines.  Typically, if the wait for an attraction is greater than 20 minutes, we won't go on it.
> 
> The measuring stick that I use for valuing WDW tickets is our local amusement park.  It's about $55 for a day ticket that covers the water park and a few small coasters and other amusement rides.  The highest priced day ticket to the Magic Kingdom at WDW is about $138.  Considering the quality and quantity of attractions, I consider both of these tickets to be equal in value.  And if your WDW trip is multi-day, your cost per day can easily drop to the $60-$70/day range depending on your ticket choices.  That makes it a no-brainer for me.



Good way to look at it.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 15, 2019)

Food for thought about how much worse things could get:

https://www.themeparktourist.com/features/20190113/36516/turning-point-age-paid-fastpass


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## Brett (Jan 15, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> Food for thought about how much worse things could get:
> 
> https://www.themeparktourist.com/features/20190113/36516/turning-point-age-paid-fastpass



Fastpass, Maxpass, 'Premier access', at Disney. 
Demand pricing has been copied from the airline industry to entertainment, retail, transportation, and many other places


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## bnoble (Jan 15, 2019)

MichaelColey said:


> What Disney really needs to do


All they really need to do is keep cashing checks. Attendance and per-guest spending is up.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 15, 2019)

bnoble said:


> All they really need to do is keep cashing checks. Attendance and per-guest spending is up.



From a stockholder perspective, perhaps. But if they want more guests to have a more enjoyable visit, which will facilitate more growth, they really need to address total ride capacity.  They are definitely masters at extracting maximum money, but are they approaching a point where the growth is unsustainable?

I know I’ve heard stories from many who have plunked down a ton of money for an extended holiday weekend in a Deluxe with full dining (everything WE know not to do), and were extremely disappointed in the experience. These people talk and word gets around.


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## bnoble (Jan 15, 2019)

They don't need to do anything other than what they are doing to grow. That's what "increased attendance and per-guest spending" is.


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## WVBaker (Jan 15, 2019)

Disney, like every other corporation, is in business to "extract" the maximum money it can. It's what the consumer gets in return that matters.

Disney continues to invest in major expansions at all of its theme parks. Disney seems to see the parks, among all it's subsidiaries, as its biggest growth opportunity. Adding new rides not only attracts visitors, but also increases attendance at it's parks. They also understand an overcrowded park can lead to a bad experience.

Many believe that another stand-alone theme park will be coming down the road and Disney is expected to spend as much as $24 billion over the next five years on park expansions. Given that, attendance and parks profits could again double over the next five years.

I wouldn't worry about sustainability.


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## mdurette (Jan 15, 2019)

bluehende said:


> That is a pro move.  Can you still cancel and keep the fast passes?



I have done this in the past - made a room only reservation and then cancelled it about 10 days before arrival.   All my FPs stayed.   

I use to have a real good "pro move" as you call it.    Would book FP+ for people on my MDE with tickets linked, but not going. I would then switch them over with Change Party to us after our 3 were used.   Tried it last April - didn't work, they must have closed that loop hole up.

We pretty much FP are entire day in the parks.   But, I will admit as the FP planner, my face is in my phone ALL DAY doing this.   It takes away from some of the magic.

For our high demand spring break trip in March.   At the 60 day window everything was available and in the morning.  I was worried some hot ones would be gone to those booking at 90 days, but they were not.


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## bnoble (Jan 15, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Many believe that another stand-alone theme park will be coming down the road


I do not expect a new gate in Orlando. The average US vacation is already too short to "do everything" at WDW, and is getting shorter. Adding a gate would only cannibalize what they have. Instead, I expect them to continue to follow the current strategy of increasing capacity of existing parks (New Fantasyland and the Tron coaster in MK, new restaurants and Ratatouille clone in EP, Star Wars and Toy Story in DS, and Pandora in AK).


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## TravelTime (Jan 15, 2019)

Iger stated last year that a new park is inevitable. He indicated China is a good growth market for that. I am hoping DVC2 will include international locations. In places like Asia, I suspect they could easily sell DVC points in a new DVC2 at higher prices than today. Not so sure about Europe though. I think there is so much untapped potential worldwide. Orlando may be saturated, I agree. I think I read the current strategy is to enhance the existing parks.


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## am1 (Jan 15, 2019)

I would have built a espn sports park. Not just the wide world of sports but a sports theme park. Maybe they will.  Could attract a different crowd then families with young children.


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## TravelTime (Jan 15, 2019)

am1 said:


> I would have built a espn sports park. Not just the wide world of sports but a sports theme park. Maybe they will.  Could attract a different crowd then families with young children.



It would not appeal to me as a minimal sports enthusiast but it is a good idea. 

I would like a bunch of Grand hotels all over the world. Right now, they have two - one in Orlando and one in California. I would love it if they had a Grand collection of luxury hotels incorporating the Disney spirit and characters in every location where they have a theme park. 

I would also like to see more beach locations with DVCs in the ports of call where the Disney cruises visit. The Bahamas might be a good start for that since they have private islands. Then they could combine short cruises with land stays.


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## bnoble (Jan 15, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Iger stated last year that a new park is inevitable. He indicated China is a good growth market for that.


I have no problem believing that; that's why I qualified that I don't expect a new gate _in Orlando_. I've been to Shanghai Disneyland; it's a hit, and there is definitely appetite for more in that market, assuming they continue to develop and support a merchant class.


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## Big Matt (Jan 16, 2019)

Years ago they were trying to open a history based park in the Northern Virginia suburbs.  I think that's a good idea still and I wouldn't rule out something like that.  It would be simple to set up themed lands (old west, revolutionary war, or do it by time period).  People originally thought that Epcot was a crazy idea, but it worked.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 16, 2019)

The other thing that struck me on our most recent trip was that the number of separately ticketed events and things that used to be included but now cost extra have skyrocketed.

They’ve had The Halloween and Christmas events for a while, but now there are a lot of other separately ticketed events. I used to always get AAA Parking, but now it’s $50 Premium parking. It used to be fairly easy to do the Candlelight Processional. Now they almost force you to buy a $60+/person dinner package. Parking at the resorts used to be free.


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## mbh (Jan 16, 2019)

It's called Capitalism. When people stop going, prices will come down. Why not raise prices if attendance doesn't go down. No one is forced to go to Disney.


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## DeeCee (Feb 21, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> Wait!  Non-expiring tickets will expire in 2030??? I missed that announcement.
> 
> (Tried to quote Dee Cee)



Yes. Now they expire in 2030.
How’s that for a change!? 
I haven’t been on the boards in awhile. Sorry I missed your post. 

Dee


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## bbodb1 (Feb 21, 2019)

mbh said:


> It's called Capitalism. When people stop going, prices will come down. Why not raise prices if attendance doesn't go down. No one is forced to go to Disney.



It's not that I entirely disagree with this point of view, but I also remember the story of the goose that laid golden eggs and how that ends.....Disney should reflect long and hard on this....


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2019)

We're doing a family get together in October and our daughter spent $2300 just for the Halloween tix (No Admission included )


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## Janann (Feb 23, 2019)

DrQ said:


> We're doing a family get together in October and our daughter spent $2300 just for the Halloween tix (No Admission included )



I'm guessing the group is around 16 people?  Halloween night plus tax is $143.  Prices are cheaper in August.  

I'm not sure what you mean by no admission...by definition, the Halloween party nights include park admission at around 4 pm.


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2019)

Janann said:


> I'm guessing the group is around 16 people?  Halloween night plus tax is $143.  Prices are cheaper in August.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by no admission...by definition, the Halloween party nights include park admission at around 4 pm.


Dunno, just going off what my DW told me. It would be a party of 6.


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